# European Style Vs. American Style how much is grooming?



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

His full brother in Europe. Also lovely.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Do they trim the neck in Europe? I think the 2nd dog looks fatter, and that neck hair exacerbates it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

They trim the necks and feathering (legs and trousers). And I vaguely think the tails are done differently than AKC. I think the dogs are allowed to be heavier simply on the basis that weights are not included in the Kennel Club breed standard like with AKC. 

The first dog is drop dead gorgeous.


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## SunnynSey (Jan 17, 2015)

I have admired some European goldens too, the one thing I have noticed is that the European breeders do tend to keep them a bit "natural" and much more heavier set than what we are use to seeing in AKC shows. I get the feeling that they feel bigger is better so their dogs look massive compared to their American counterparts. With respect to the two pictures of the brothers, the first one definitely looks more trimmed around the neck and legs and appears to be de-bulked of his coat, the second golden does look heavier than the first but I can also see where the excess fur is hiding the length of leg and the solid topline seen in the first.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

This is very interesting to me! Here on my circuit we really REALLY groom the Newfs for show. This includes trimming and lots of baths and fluffing with a blower right before a show. Here is my Gabe with his handler last year (I had just had ankle surgery so on crutches). But this is the grooming that satisfied his handler or she won't even take him in the ring! I think he looks really nice.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I remember somebody posting that they trim around the neck differently.

Are these littermates? What are their ages? Wondering if one is more mature than the other. 

Sailor is mixed lines, and at fourteen months, we are now waiting for her and her littermates to grow before they go back in the ring. She is still so much of a puppy.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

They are full siblings (brothers) from the same litter. The first boy shown in a picture where he was 2-3 years old the the second boy is pictured at just over 3 years old.

For the sake of getting them closer together in age here is the second boy again this time pictured at 27 months.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

And the first boy again.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

It does look like grooming is a big part of the difference in looks. In Europe, do they blow dry?


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

cubbysan said:


> It does look like grooming is a big part of the difference in looks. In Europe, do they blow dry?



That's what I was wondering because the hair on the European dog looks like my hair did when I let it dry naturally, the waves would appear. (Using that because it's the only real world experience I can relate it to?)

I've got to look at pics of spaniels but the way the neck is trimmed makes me think of welsh springers and cockers. Maybe it's a look for gun dogs there?


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

The way there is some hair on the chest reminds me of this look. Just an observation because God knows I'm not familiar with showing.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I don't know if they blow dry or not. It would be interesting if one of our members from Europe would know and let us know. 

I also wonder if there may have been one dog in history that kind of started this trend. 
I know here in the US our whole presentation of the dogs changed when one bitch in particular had a great body but her head was overshadowed by lower set ears. In order to get her ears up and create a must better 'picture' they baited her almost continuously which at that point was use maybe once to show expression. Well, she started winning big and fast forward to today when no matter the ear set all handlers bait dogs almost continuously. That came form one bitch with a handler who came up with the best way to show her in particular.

So, I wonder if their might have been a UK version of this maybe a dog/bitch that was otherwise exceptional but held back because of a little shortness or thickness in the neck. Maybe a bit of creative grooming for one dog caught on and that is why they strip the necks??? Just a theory.


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## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

LJack said:


> So, I wonder if their might have been a UK version of this maybe a dog/bitch that was otherwise exceptional but held back because of a little shortness or thickness in the neck. Maybe a bit of creative grooming for one dog caught on and that is why they strip the necks??? Just a theory.


I know y'all are Golden people, but this article on the UK Flatcoat Society website has a few bits that might be relevant and/or of interest:

"Presentation varies. ... Sadly, we are now seeing the Scandinavian style of presentation in the UK showring. All the hair is stripped out the front of the neck to the breastbone and tails are sculptured. A Flatcoat should look natural and attempts to glamorise the breed should be condemned. When judging in the UK I do penalise this sort of presentation."

"I would say that the style of stripping down their necks which originated in Scandinavia and has trickled across to the UK should be nipped in the bud sharpish. It is NOT the way to present a Flatcoat."

"I abhor the stripped out look that is fashionable in some overseas countries, the neck feathering is there for a purpose, to protect the dog, when out working in heather or bramble. The standard was laid down by those who were trying to evolve a moderate dog for use in the field."

"The trend in presentation nowadays seems to be that of over trimming, particulary neck and fronts. This is how the Scandinavians trim their dogs and is being copied here. I personally would penalise excessive trimming in the U.K. as I feel it spoils the look of the dog."​
The consensus in Flatcoats seems to be that the neck stripping seen in parts of Europe and the UK was adopted from Setter and Spaniel grooming techniques to give the appearance of dogs with better fronts. In a dog kept in good, hard working condition, it _can_ set off the front assembly very nicely without making the dog look heavy, but many standards make very clear that such grooming is to be considered absolutely off limits.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I agree I think the necks look stripped on a UK golden. They also must not use the blower like we do and dry to the skin. So their coats are fluffier and curlier. They also present a dog very differently in the ring. They gait a dog differently and use a collar/leash very differently. I've noticed the collar is very large and is just draped around the shoulders and not up tight behind the ears. The gait is also choppier and not as fluid as we like to see with goldens in the US. Just different ways of showing a dog. Not extremely different dogs, just presented differently. I think in the US we have also bred for a straighter coat than in the UK. We seem to abhor a wavy coat here, I have no idea why. I personally like a wavy coat and think it looks more natural.

This weekend I show my girl again. There are a couple of people in this show with UK bloodlines. I'll see if I can get one of them to let me photograph my girl next to one of theirs. It would be interesting to see considering they groom with the US in mind and don't strip necks.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Alaska7133 said:


> We seem to abhor a wavy coat here, I have no idea why.


I think it's simply straight coats are easier to groom and present well. You don't have to deal with curls throwing off your dog's topline or making the neck stuffy looking. And don't forget that while there's definitely some stripping/sculpting going on with a lot of dogs necks with some big name handlers out there, it's still nothing that could be compared to how setters/spaniels are groomed.

There are wavy/curly goldens showing in conformation, but they take a heckova lot longer to groom than those who have a naturally nice coat. I've seen them. Takes me 40 minutes or so to soak my dog down and dry him completely for show - with minimal hair product, etc. Other people, I've seen them working on dogs for close to two hours with dryers and hair straighteners (irons) and putting various goo in the coat to straighten it out. It's got to be a pita to deal with no matter how nice the dog is.


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