# Neutering: Fact vs Fiction



## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Hey All!

Champ is now 6 1/2 months and we didn't plan to neuter him until 18 months. However, it seems that the external pressure to neuter has been increasing lately, and I have heard some "facts" or possible "rumors" that keep swaying our opinion back and forth.

I know this is a hot debate and that's the last thing I want, but I was hoping that people could address some of these rumors with either their own experience or knowledge, in the hopes that it can help us make a well informed decision.

I also want to say that I respect people's differing opinions and hope that everyone can share them (in a respectful manner that is

Anyways...here are the list of "facts" or "rumors"...whatever you want to call them, that we've heard.

1. Intact dogs get bullied by other neutered dogs...
This is already an ABSOLUTE fact for us and one that has been hard to deal with and it has been increasing more difficult to socialize Champ. Little dogs especially are pretty nasty to him, and now more and more bigger dogs are barking and lunging at him while on walks. This definitely disturbs me, and worries me because we want to keep socializing him but it is becoming more difficult, and I don't want him to become afraid of dogs because he keeps having negative experiences. Champ is also very submissive to other dogs, and also very respectful, which leads me to my next point....

2. An intact dog will eventually become aggressive
Sure, I've seen this happen before, but I've also seen intact dogs who are not aggressive. This came up yesterday when I called a new potential pet sitter and she told me she wouldn't watch Champ because he is intact because the potential for him to eventually become aggressive is too high, and also she doesn't want the liability of other dogs being aggressive toward him because he is intact. Anyone out there have a dog that is intact and not aggressive? I would hate for my sweet Champ to become aggressive. So...is this a rumor, a fact?

3. Intact dogs, especially males, are harder to control
So basically, the longer Champ stays intact, the harder it will be for him to listen, come when called, and just obey. I've heard people say that the will try to run away, and will not listen to their commands he learned early in life. Fact, rumor?

4. Neutering will alter their appearance and leaving him intact will allow him to grow bigger, and with a blockier head
I'll be honest and say that this is my last concern. I will love Champ no matter if he's big, small, blocky or pointy, so I don't care as much about this one.

5. New evidence shows that leaving intact and neutering later minimizing the risk of joint issues
I've seen the articles, and I guess I can't really dispute them. However, I know of dogs that are not neutered and they still had joint issues, but I guess we will never know of the dogs that would have possibly had joint issues but didn't because they were left intact. I know this evidence is compelling for me, and one of the main reasons both of us and our vet wanted to leave him intact. 

6. Leaving intact will increase their risk of cancer
Nothing else to say about that...that's what I've heard. I wonder if that applies to neutering late though?


I think that about covers the "facts" or "rumors" that have been on my mind and have kept the opinion pendulum swinging back and forth. I also want to clarify and say that I'm sure that none of the statements above are an absolute fact, and everyone will have a different experience and what is fact to one person may not be a fact to another, and I welcome all experiences and opinions, and thank you for them!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> 1. Intact dogs get bullied by other neutered dogs...


I think what actually happens is when a dog is neutered, they can be a bit more touchy about performing the usual communications with other dogs. I noticed that with our Sammy after he was neutered. When his brother would go to do the usual "butt check" on him, Sammy would warn him off (growling) - this when the 10 years previous, he never had any issues with being sniffed by other dogs. 

The other thing is people neuter their dogs on the assumption that will fix all behavioral issues with other dogs - and then turn them loose with other dogs. Neutering does not change the behaviors of dogs who are assertive, dominant, or aggressive. It just takes certain motivations away while leaving all the others.



> 2. An intact dog will eventually become aggressive


False. 



> 3. Intact dogs, especially males, are harder to control


I have put obedience titles on two dogs.... my dogs are generally off leash when we hike.... they both are completely border trained (stay on my property) without any fencing or leashes.... and they have perfect manners with other dogs regardless of gender or gonad status. That is due to breeding and training.



> 4. Neutering will alter their appearance and leaving him intact will allow him to grow bigger, and with a blockier head


Neutering won't alter anything that already exists (other than coat). It may have a noticable effect on how your dog develops if you neuter too early. That is why people recommend neutering after 18 months with males. If neutered too early, a male dog may not have as "male" an appearance as they would otherwise. Their head may be too small for their body and or they not develop the chest/shoulders that they may otherwise have. 

Then again, I think different lines develop at different rates and there may not be so big an effect on growth if the dog is neutered too early.



> 5. New evidence shows that leaving intact and neutering later minimizing the risk of joint issues


It's primarily because testosterome/hormones regulate growth. You do not want your dog growing too fast or too long or whatnot - because that will affect their joints. Also look up the effect that early neutering has on ACL's....



> 6. Leaving intact will increase their risk of cancer


And there are studies which indicate that early neutering may increase a dog's risk of certain cancers. 

There is a minor risk of intact male dogs developing testicular cancer. This is something their owners need to be aware of.... and they should follow through with preventive checks at home and yearly checks at the vet.


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

I always spayed/neutered early and with Ollie breeder requests to wait at least year for the above referenced reasons.
I too am interested in all opinions on this subject. Like SMBC, not the appearance but health and temperament main concerns.
FYI: know a couple intact middle aged Goldens with perfect manners and temperament.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

I am always shocked by the number of aggressive dogs with titles, show, agility, obedience, etc. oh wait, I've never heard that and that group is probably the best example of how your intact male will behave. As the years go by, I become more and more entrenched into letting nature do it's thing. We manipulate so much, including these breeds, and do much harm this way. It may apply more to aggressive breeds, and any dog can have issues, but I'd let him go for a bit longer. Hazel's brother was intact until he was 9 and always an angel.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Megora said:


> I think what actually happens is when a dog is neutered, they can be a bit more touchy about performing the usual communications with other dogs. I noticed that with our Sammy after he was neutered. When his brother would go to do the usual "butt check" on him, Sammy would warn him off (growling) - this when the 10 years previous, he never had any issues with being sniffed by other dogs.
> 
> The other thing is people neuter their dogs on the assumption that will fix all behavioral issues with other dogs - and then turn them loose with other dogs. Neutering does not change the behaviors of dogs who are assertive, dominant, or aggressive. It just takes certain motivations away while leaving all the others.


Very valid points! It is really strange though because dogs will growl, bark or lung at Champ even from far away...it's like they can smell that he is not neutered. Or, they know he's a puppy...or submissive...I don't know, but it does happen, and often. 

Also, can you say more about the "false" statement that intact dogs are more aggressive then neutered dogs. This is my MAIN concern, and am wondering why people think this. The sitter I spoke with yesterday said she knows of 2 goldens that were like Champ and really submissive in their early months, and then at about a year old, they became very aggressive, and she said this is due to them not being neutered. I certainly don't want that to happen to Champ, and I know her "evidence" is purely anecdotal. Just wondering if you could shed a little more light on it for me...





Megora said:


> I have put obedience titles on two dogs.... my dogs are generally off leash when we hike.... they both are completely border trained (stay on my property) without any fencing or leashes.... and they have perfect manners with other dogs regardless of gender or gonad status. That is due to breeding and training.


I can definitely understand how training and breeding are both important factors to how they will actually behave when they are older, rather than neutering status. 




Megora said:


> Neutering won't alter anything that already exists (other than coat). It may have a noticable effect on how your dog develops if you neuter too early. That is why people recommend neutering after 18 months with males. If neutered too early, a male dog may not have as "male" an appearance as they would otherwise. Their head may be too small for their body and or they not develop the chest/shoulders that they may otherwise have.
> 
> Then again, I think different lines develop at different rates and there may not be so big an effect on growth if the dog is neutered too early.


Okay thanks for the information. 





Megora said:


> It's primarily because testosterome/hormones regulate growth. You do not want your dog growing too fast or too long or whatnot - because that will affect their joints. Also look up the effect that early neutering has on ACL's....


Ohh I've never actually seen the research on neutering and ACL's. I have heard though that ACL's are more likely to blow out if there are other joint issues. And, if the dog isn't in good physical condition. 





Megora said:


> And there are studies which indicate that early neutering may increase a dog's risk of certain cancers.
> 
> There is a minor risk of intact male dogs developing testicular cancer. This is something their owners need to be aware of.... and they should follow through with preventive checks at home and yearly checks at the vet.


Oh interesting... I didn't know that either!

I really appreciate the information! Thank you so much! What I can take from it though also is that, obviously, no one can predict how neutering vs not neutering will impact their dog. 

For us, the most frustrating thing right now is how other dogs behave toward him, and since we cannot guess which well intentioned dogs will all of a sudden turn aggressive toward him, he's not being socialized as much as he should. And my other main future concern is the possibility that he can become aggressive.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

olliversmom said:


> I always spayed/neutered early and with Ollie breeder requests to wait at least year for the above referenced reasons.
> I too am interested in all opinions on this subject. Like SMBC, not the appearance but health and temperament main concerns.
> FYI: know a couple intact middle aged Goldens with perfect manners and temperament.


Thanks for sharing! How old is Ollie now and is he neutered? 



lhowemt said:


> I am always shocked by the number of aggressive dogs with titles, show, agility, obedience, etc. oh wait, I've never heard that and that group is probably the best example of how your intact male will behave. As the years go by, I become more and more entrenched into letting nature do it's thing. We manipulate so much, including these breeds, and do much harm this way. It may apply more to aggressive breeds, and any dog can have issues, but I'd let him go for a bit longer. Hazel's brother was intact until he was 9 and always an angel.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Great point and thank you for sharing!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think that aggression is primarily a wiring and training issue. Hormones will exasperate things with aggressive dogs, but I don't think they stop being aggressive if you neuter them. 

If you have a fear aggressive dog who has been attacked by other dogs every time they are around.... he's going to be fear aggressive. The best way to fix that is not expose your dog to aggressive mean dogs now while he's at an impressionable stage. If you see a dog barreling up to your dog, put yourself between the dogs and keep moving. No dog parks. No turning loose with unknown dogs. Only play-dates with nice dogs.

Keep in mind that you just pointed out the obvious in your post.... your puppy is nice. The neutered dogs barging up are bullying him and/or trying to attack him. That is dog aggression. And I would gather that the reason why they are so obnoxious is the owners are just letting them throw their weight around and the behavior gets reinforced.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Megora said:


> I think that aggression is primarily a wiring and training issue. Hormones will exasperate things with aggressive dogs, but I don't think they stop being aggressive if you neuter them.
> 
> If you have a fear aggressive dog who has been attacked by other dogs every time they are around.... he's going to be fear aggressive. The best way to fix that is not expose your dog to aggressive mean dogs now while he's at an impressionable stage. If you see a dog barreling up to your dog, put yourself between the dogs and keep moving. No dog parks. No turning loose with unknown dogs. Only play-dates with nice dogs.
> 
> Keep in mind that you just pointed out the obvious in your post.... your puppy is nice. The neutered dogs barging up are bullying him and/or trying to attack him. That is dog aggression.


Right, good points! Can I ask you another question without changing the subject of this thread?

I have heard from a couple of trainers that sometimes dogs need these "negative" experiences to learn how to behave in the dog world. The one sitter yesterday told me that rarely do these interactions cause blood, and that Champ needs to learn how to be polite in the dog world. My own opinion...I don't agree with this at all, not one bit! First of all, in all the situations that have occurred, Champ has not done anything wrong (and I'm not just saying that because he's my dog). And, I don't think he needs to get attacked, regardless if it draws blood or not, to learn how to behave. In fact, I think that would change the way he behaves. Anyways though, this is the second time I've heard it from a pet sitter, not even a trainer I guess, and both I'm not working with.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm with you with one exception. 

When you have multiple dogs or dog who know each other and have an established hierarchy, they DO learn appropriate behaviors from each other. That's pretty much why it's a lot easier raising a balanced dog when you have an older one to help you. And at the top of that hierarchy in my home... that's me. All the dogs know their boundaries and I'm quick to step in when I see any of the dogs exhibiting inappropriate behaviors or crossing the line. 

When you toss your dog in with a bunch of strange dogs.... there is not an established hierarchy and you either have dogs who are really stressed about throwing their weight around and/or exhibiting the correct signals and still getting pounded into the dirt. If no owner or trainer is stepping in to moderate the dogs, you will have dogs developing behaviors that you will not like.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

I think neutered vs. intact is used as an excuse sometimes. There are a lot of dogs out there that aren't properly socialized and trained. It seems to me when Zeke was young and recently neutered, people were telling me to be careful that intact dogs would try to bully him . . . the opposite of your concern. 

While I don't think you should put your dog in a clearly dangerous situation, my view is that dogs who are never exposed to unfamiliar dogs can end up being poorly socialized.


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

SMBC said:


> Thanks for sharing! How old is Ollie now and is he neutered?
> 
> Olliver is 4.5 months. I will wait until at least 12 months to neuter him, unless I see problems. As I plan on doing lots of training and formal obedience work and Ollie seems an all around well adjusted/sweet obedient rascal, I don't forsee any aggression/temperament problems.
> 
> Previous to Olliver, early neutering/spaying of my dogs was just the thing we went with at the time, as we were not breeding.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Megora said:


> I with you with one exception.
> 
> When you have multiple dogs or dog who know each other and have an established hierarchy, they DO learn appropriate behaviors from each other. That's pretty much why it's a lot easier raising a balanced dog when you have an older one to help you. And at the top of that hierarchy in my home... that's me. All the dogs know their boundaries and I'm quick to step in when I see any of the dogs exhibiting inappropriate behaviors or crossing the line.
> 
> When you toss your dog in with a bunch of strange dogs.... there is not an established hierarchy and you either have dogs who are really stressed about throwing their weight around and/or exhibiting the correct signals and still getting pounded into the dirt. If no owner or trainer is stepping in to moderate the dogs, you will have dogs developing behaviors that you will not like.


Makes complete sense and I can see how that would apply between two dogs that know, and live with each other, but not two dogs that have met for 3 seconds. I had a woman once approach me with her dog while I was walking Champ (didn't even ask). Champ and her dog started smelling each other, and her dog started growling so I pulled Champ away. The woman said, "oh shes nice, just vocal" so I let Champ go back and smell a little more (my mistake). Then her dog growled, lunged and did that quick attack thing that they sometimes do, and I pulled Champ away and the woman said, "my dog is just trying to school your dog." School my dog? School him in what? It was so strange and it stands out in my mind as an example of what i have heard from these pet sitters.



TheZ's said:


> I think neutered vs. intact is used as an excuse sometimes. There are a lot of dogs out there that aren't properly socialized and trained. It seems to me when Zeke was young and recently neutered, people were telling me to be careful that intact dogs would try to bully him . . . the opposite of your concern.
> 
> While I don't think you should put your dog in a clearly dangerous situation, my view is that dogs who are never exposed to unfamiliar dogs can end up being poorly socialized.


I completely agree, and thus, our dilemma. We have had people approach us and tell me their dog is super friendly, and we let them smell, and the dog turns on Champ without any warning. I have to believe that these dogs are very nice, and well intentioned but there is something about Champ, whether it's because he's intact, or a puppy, that is causing these dogs to react. It's very hard to predict which dogs will and won't do it, and honestly, when we are on walks, I will always let him play with goldens and goldendoodles, and I am really cautious with other dogs. He kind of played with a small golden/cavalier mix yesterday at the vet, although they were both on leash, and both loved it and were very nice to each other.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Lots of what used to pass for accepted wisdom in the pressure you are getting. Much if it is now quite strongly questioned.

As to growth, sex hormones play a vital role in regulating other systems in the body that affect growth outcomes--such as when the growth plates in the long bones close, bone density, and muscle mass. Without the hormonal signal, early neutered dogs will most often be leggier. That muscle mass is also needed to properly support joints, and can protect tendons and ligaments as well.

On the cancer front, about the only cancer you are protecting a male from is testicular cancer, which is incredibly rare in Goldens, and easily treated if found. Other cancers which affect Goldens at a far higher rate, have a higher incidence in neutered males--so it can potentially make one of our breed scourges worse!

Being intact is not what makes dogs aggressive--poor temperament, poor socialization, and poor training do that! Frankly, this pet sitter sounds like a bit of an idiot, and I would not want that person responsible for any part of the care training, or socialization of my pup, as it sounds like she hasn't got a clue and could actually create some of these problems.

Oh yeah, and here are a couple of those dangerous, intact males (who live with four intact females...) The big guy in the back is 9.5 and a has been a daddy twice and is now a grandpa (so he knows what being a boy is!) and the other is 4 years old. NEver a lifted lip or squabble of any sort between these boys, and they have also been fine meeting my friends' intact boys at the show this weekend, and run with my friends intact boys when we are out field training. It is all about the training if the base temperaments are stable.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Here are some good links on the health issues of early spay/neuter:
Golden retriever study suggests neutering affects dog health :: UC Davis News & Information

http://www.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/2/9/2029053/deciding_whether_and_when_to_neuter_a_golden_retreiver.pdf


I can only speak from my experience with my still intact 9 month old Yogi Bear, but he displays absolutely no aggression at all and is the absolute most easy dog to control we've ever had (your questions 2 and 3). He is genuinely friendly and calm around other dogs and walks well on the leash beside me and doesn't mark, hump or do any of those things you hear intact males might do. We are waiting until at least 12 months to neuter, but may extend it to 15 to 18 months. Our vet is perfectly agreeable to our waiting, after reading the studies.

He's been around other large male dogs with no issues. That said, we don't do dog parks or doggie day care, but carefully select and monitor his playmates and play time.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

olliversmom said:


> SMBC said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for sharing! How old is Ollie now and is he neutered?
> ...


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Dallas Gold said:


> Here are some good links on the health issues of early spay/neuter:
> Golden retriever study suggests neutering affects dog health :: UC Davis News & Information
> 
> http://www.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/2/9/2029053/deciding_whether_and_when_to_neuter_a_golden_retreiver.pdf
> ...


Thank you so much for the information and for sharing your experience. I mean to be honest, Champ is the same way. I would say his "faults" is that he jumps on people...and that's all I can think of. He has bursts of energy, but is also relatively calm as long as he has gotten exercise. He doesn't pull on the leash, he "marks" outside (peeing little amounts in different areas) but never in the house. Is the peeing in small amounts in different places outside a bad thing? I didn't think it was, but I could be wrong. Our vet also supports us waiting, but now with all these "rumors" I keep waivering back and forth:doh:


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

All of my three golden males I had, were left intact and I never had any aggression issues, trying to breed issues, roaming issues. They were the sweetest dogs. 
I did have my two rescued dogs, my lab mix from a kill shelter and my stray dachshund neutered at 12 months. That was more because I did not know their background.
I don't really plan on having my next golden boy neutered either. (I hope I will find a breeder that agrees with that)


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

SMBC said:


> Thank you so much for the information and for sharing your experience. I mean to be honest, Champ is the same way. I would say his "faults" is that he jumps on people...and that's all I can think of. He has bursts of energy, but is also relatively calm as long as he has gotten exercise. He doesn't pull on the leash, he "marks" outside (peeing little amounts in different areas) but never in the house. Is the peeing in small amounts in different places outside a bad thing? I didn't think it was, but I could be wrong. Our vet also supports us waiting, but now with all these "rumors" I keep waivering back and forth:doh:


I don't think neutering has any effect on jumping- that is just a puppy being a puppy and consistent training will help with that. There are lots of female jumpers too by the way. Those bursts of energy are also just being a puppy or a younger dog. Most of my dogs have marked outside and all were neutered early at 6 months or so (back in 2004 and earlier when we didn't know better). Right now, Yogi doesn't mark outside at all- he's lifted his leg maybe 3 times and usually just squats to go. He will sniff other markings but not participate. Personally I prefer a non-marker just from a courtesy standpoint to my neighbors when we are out walking. I don't think neutering will cure marking. I've walked a neighbor's female who also marked. 

When my vet and I had "the talk" she said that she is fully supportive of us waiting, but if he does develop annoying behaviors in or outside the house that we can go ahead and neuter earlier; however, it might not cure the behavior. So far so good with Yogi- he really is my dream puppy in all respects!


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Anne, no the neutering will not effect the marking. Once they start lifting their leg, they will always do so. I saw that in my lab mix, that was neutered at 12 months, we got him when he was 10 month and he was already lifting his leg.
Our dachshund was about 8 months when we took him in, he was not lifting his leg but he learned from Thunder and Toby and he lifts his leg most of the time now.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

cgriffin said:


> All of my three golden males I had, were left intact and I never had any aggression issues, trying to breed issues, roaming issues. They were the sweetest dogs.
> I did have my two rescued dogs, my lab mix from a kill shelter and my stray dachshund neutered at 12 months. That was more because I did not know their background.
> I don't really plan on having my next golden boy neutered either. (I hope I will find a breeder that agrees with that)


Thank you so much for sharing your experience! It's nice to know about the intact dogs that are not displaying these rumored behaviors, and helps to stick with my opinion to leave him intact as long as possible. Throughout my life my aunt has had 3 male dogs, 2 german shepherds, and 1 german shepherd mix. The 2 germans shepherds were not neutered, and neither have ever been aggressive, although the first one did hump. The german shepherd mix was neutered, but was also from a shelter, and was really aggressive. 



Dallas Gold said:


> I don't think neutering has any effect on jumping- that is just a puppy being a puppy and consistent training will help with that. There are lots of female jumpers too by the way. Those bursts of energy are also just being a puppy or a younger dog. Most of my dogs have marked outside and all were neutered early at 6 months or so (back in 2004 and earlier when we didn't know better). Right now, Yogi doesn't mark outside at all- he's lifted his leg maybe 3 times and usually just squats to go. He will sniff other markings but not participate. Personally I prefer a non-marker just from a courtesy standpoint to my neighbors when we are out walking. I don't think neutering will cure marking. I've walked a neighbor's female who also marked.
> 
> When my vet and I had "the talk" she said that she is fully supportive of us waiting, but if he does develop annoying behaviors in or outside the house that we can go ahead and neuter earlier; however, it might not cure the behavior. So far so good with Yogi- he really is my dream puppy in all respects!


Thanks for the information! Champ actually doesn't lift his leg at all yet, but that's probably an age thing, but does go pee about 2-3 times when we are out, but I never let him go on a neighbors lawn or anything like that, and oddly enough he prefers to pee on the concrete sidewalk. My last dog was neutered at 6 months but marked throughout his life. I believe this is a behavior that I can also discourage if need be and can talk to our trainer about how to do that if there is any negative effects that can come from marking. With our other dog, he was leash aggressive, and so we were told that marking could increase that since he believes other dogs are in his territory, but Champ has no aggression toward other animals, so far, but thats what we are trying to avoid. 

It sounds like Yogi is a really great dog! Did he jump on people? My vet and I also had that discussion, and I left her a message on saturday so we can have an updated conversation about it and so she can also help to dispel some of these things that I am hearing. 



cgriffin said:


> Anne, no the neutering will not effect the marking. Once they start lifting their leg, they will always do so. I saw that in my lab mix, that was neutered at 12 months, we got him when he was 10 month and he was already lifting his leg.
> Our dachshund was about 8 months when we took him in, he was not lifting his leg but he learned from Thunder and Toby and he lifts his leg most of the time now.


Is this something that should be discouraged?




I have another question...and I hope it doesn't sound stupid, so please excuse my naivete. Is barking a sign of aggression when in the house, barking at people or animals walking by? We often have deer, wild turkey and other animals walk by on the hill in our back yard, and Champ barks at them. He will also sometimes bark if he hears our neighbors outside in the front yard. I know its a "good watch dog" thing, but is it something I should discourage?


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

The marking does not bother me at all. I live in the country, I walk my boys 5-6 times a day. The markings has not hurt anything yet and I don't have neighbors that would complain. I also have a large fenced in yard, but they have not killed anything yet with peeing on a tree or the fence. They don't mark on the house, flowers or gazebo. They are really good dogs.

When I did live in military housing with my first two goldens, I walked them the same amount and I usually took them to a grassy open area to run around, no harm done or if they 'watered' a utility pole, who cares? 

I think marking is overrated and it is something an owner can get a handle on with training if it is done in inappropriate places.

About the barking, if it becomes a nuisance where your dog will bark for ten minutes straight, it is a problem and your neighbors will not like you. 
Mine will bark if someone approaches the house, we have a long long driveway. They will bark if they see a wild animal but usually they give up the barking fast. They won't even bark at the deer anymore that are always around. My dachshund will bark at the raccoon that comes for a visit at night, but since the raccoon ignores him, he will just stop and just watch. 

I think alerting you to unfamiliar people or something that is out of place is a good thing, just don't let him bark just to be barking and becoming a nuisance.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

> It sounds like Yogi is a really great dog! Did he jump on people? My vet and I also had that discussion, and I left her a message on saturday so we can have an updated conversation about it and so she can also help to dispel some of these things that I am hearing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yogi jumped on me today after I came in from walking Toby- just wanting to shower me with kisses- I told him down and he did, but we work on it all the time. He would love to jump but is learning that I'm not so happy with him when he does so he's keeping all four on the floor. His tail is lethal though! 

Yogi only barks to alert, Toby does the same- none of it is aggressive but he fancies himself a watch dog and will let me know when he hears or sees something going on outside. I'm not an expert because I never discouraged it. Others will probably disagree, but I sort of like when solicitors walk away after he barks at them.


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## Davidrob2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Harry is still intact. He is just under 10 months old. Our vet would like us to wait until about 18 months before we have him neutered mainly because of the growth plate issues that Sterregold mentioned. We have seen no adverse behavior -- although this past week I have noticed he has started marking every stop sign on our walks (he still doesn't lift his leg). No aggression and no desire to run. He does get overly excited during fetch sessions some days (bumping into us on the return and starting to jump) but that has been going on since he was young and is something we are working on. Like Champ, I have noticed he seems to get "picked on" -- but it is usually by dogs who, after the owners ask if their dogs can say hello, seem to turn on him after the initial sniff. We never go to dog parks or have him anywhere off leash where we can't control the contact. We have solved the issue by only letting him interact with dogs who we know have been socialized well. Even on our walks, we train so he is focused on us and not the other dogs or people passing by. As for the barking in the house, Harry has just started doing this -- but only to alert us that something is out of the norm. My ancient hair dryer started smoking the other day. Harry was barking at it before I even knew anything was wrong. He has started barking when the people come to pick up the trash or when someone comes to the front door. Like DallasGold, I don't discourage it. My husband, who is in law enforcement, says it's a good crime deterrent.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

To be perfectly honest, our neutering decision rests entirely on Yogi's class schedule- he LOVES going to class so we would like to schedule him around his classes during a break! He also has a huge crush on teacher and I just cannot imagine him staying home to recover and not being able to see and love on her.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Okay, I have a weird question. Let me preface it by saying that all my rescue boys have always been neutered (they come with that or as a condition to adoption), and my two show boys have always been intact. I haven't noticed any of the differences in temperament, aggression, etc., that people attribute to intact vs. neutered. I think a lot of it is just folklore.

So, my question: All things being equal, and _if you are responsible owner_ who won't let your dog run around making babies, why neuter, at all?


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

I agree with that, DanaRuns. Like you stated: If you are a responsible pet owner.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Good question. I don't know except possibly to prevent prostate cancer in later years?


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

What is strange though, Anne. The only dog I have ever seen get prostate cancer was a Golden pup, about a year old, that was neutered at six months. To clarify, he got cancer after he was neutered. He was the dog of the head technician of the first vet clinic I worked for.
I don't know the outcome though.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

DanaRuns said:


> Okay, I have a weird question. Let me preface it by saying that all my rescue boys have always been neutered (they come with that or as a condition to adoption), and my two show boys have always been intact. I haven't noticed any of the differences in temperament, aggression, etc., that people attribute to intact vs. neutered. I think a lot of it is just folklore.


Bingo!!

There are a lot of people who assume that no dog will receive proper training and socialization, so they always advocate early spay/neuter. Neutering a dog does not take the place of proper training and socialization. A neutered dog with no manners is just as large a PIA as his intact counterpart is. 







DanaRuns said:


> So, my question: All things being equal, and _if you are responsible owner_ who won't let your dog run around making babies, why neuter, at all?


If you train and socialize your dog, there really isn't a good reason to do so.


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## Pammie (Jan 22, 2011)

DanaRuns said:


> So, my question: All things being equal, and _if you are responsible owner_ who won't let your dog run around making babies, why neuter, at all?


Great question and one I continue to ponder. My Bryley is 2 1/2 and I am still waffling!:scratchch


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

It sounds to me like you're doing fine with Champ. I don't know why it is other dogs seem to pick on him but my bet would be it has nothing to do with his still being intact. But this being a concern, and understandably so, I would be very careful about who I let him interact with and that would include all those people telling you he just wants to say hello. It's so often followed by gee he's never done that before...I'd carefully pick out his playmates and change direction when that "friendly" dog owner approaches.

My experience with intact dogs has been positive...my brothers got an intact 9 yr old English Setter who's one of the sweetest dogs I've ever meant. I think people find it convenient to blame bad behavior on whether or not a dog has been fixed or not. When more than likely the behavior is a result of poor training & socialization.

There's a good article regarding socialization & rude behavior you might enjoy reading if you haven't already seen it...

He Just Wants To Say "Hi!" | Suzanne Clothier

You're very close to the Marine Humane Society I believe. There's a very well known trainer/behaviorist there by the name of Trish King. Should this problem with Champ being picked on persist and you're looking for answers it might be worth while getting in touch with her. She's very good.

~Pete & Woody~


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Good question. I don't know except possibly to prevent prostate cancer in later years?


The odds of developing prostate cancer are HIGHER in neutered dogs that those left intact.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

I think most of the questions you asked in your first post really come down to breeding and training like others have said. As for the health related points, I agree with what sterregold's mentioned. I've come to these conclusions by reading articles and numerous threads about the topic, speaking with my breeder, and then having my own personal experiences.

Here's my personal experience:
I have two males, 10months (Oliver) and 1 year (Bernie). Both are intact. My 10 month old is from a reputable breeder, my 1 year old is from a BYB. Both mark (outside only) and occasionally lift their leg (haven't quite got the balance thing down yet ). They're both great with children, super friendly, and have very good house manners.



> 1. Intact dogs get bullied by other neutered dogs...


Oliver is great with other dogs. He goes to doggy-daycare occasionally and I always get great feedback from the workers. Bernie is reactive and fearful. We don't let him play with strange dogs or dogs that have a history of being aggressive. Bernie plays great with dogs that are friendly. Bernie gets attacked by other dogs all the time. Oliver never does. They're both intact but in our case its the temperament not the testicles that are causing dogs to lash out. I might add that Oliver is reasonably assertive - not a submissive dog. Very playful and friendly. 



> 2. An intact dog will eventually become aggressive


My dogs are still very young so I don't have anything to back this up, but they're both close to a year and their personalities haven't changed since we brought them home. 



> 3. Intact dogs, especially males, are harder to control


Oliver is a dream. He's super easy to train, extremely biddable, and a quick learner. Bernie is not food-motivated, is a high drive dog, is more independent (not biddable whatsoever) and then has the fear issues on top of it. So he's been really hard to train. Once again, I think this has more to do with breeding/temperament than testicles. 



> 4. Neutering will alter their appearance and leaving him intact will allow him to grow bigger, and with a blockier head





> 5. New evidence shows that leaving intact and neutering later minimizing the risk of joint issues


I feel like these two kind of go together. All dogs, across breeds and within breeds, grow at different rates. Bernie looked like a full grown dog at 6 months. He was roughly the same height he is now, he's filled out a little, but his head was as filled out as it was going to get, etc. Oliver, looks completely different now than he did at 6 months and I'm pretty sure he's still going to change. He still has a hint of that puppy face (at 10 months!). We also just took Oliver in for x-rays because he's been limping. The x-rays showed that his growth plates in his shoulders aren't closed yet. He's 10 months old and his growth plates aren't closed yet. I'm not sure when they'll close, but I wouldn't want to neuter my boys before they're done developing! Its hard to know when they're done - because as you can see with my two boys they all grow at different rates. I think 18 months is probably roughly when most dogs will be done. There are articles that explain why it can be bad to neuter before the growth plates close, I think someone might have posted them already in this thread.


So to sum it all up I have two intact dogs. 1 goes against all the rumors and 1 goes with all the rumors. This is obviously just my opinion, but I think that most of the reason Bernie fits the intact dog stereotype is because he was from a BYB and had poor socialization for his first few weeks of life. Oliver was from a great breeder, with a great pedigree and he definitely doesn't fit the intact dog stereotype.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

DanaRuns said:


> So, my question: All things being equal, and _if you are responsible owner_ who won't let your dog run around making babies, why neuter, at all?


I ask that all the time. I have no desire whatsoever to neuter my boys b/c really, whats the point?.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

cgriffin said:


> The marking does not bother me at all. I live in the country, I walk my boys 5-6 times a day. The markings has not hurt anything yet and I don't have neighbors that would complain. I also have a large fenced in yard, but they have not killed anything yet with peeing on a tree or the fence. They don't mark on the house, flowers or gazebo. They are really good dogs.
> 
> When I did live in military housing with my first two goldens, I walked them the same amount and I usually took them to a grassy open area to run around, no harm done or if they 'watered' a utility pole, who cares?
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing and for your opinion. He will continue to bark if the deer continue to hang around, but once they leave he is done, same with the people he sees. I'm trying not to reinforce the barking but I agree that it is a good thing to alert is to something or someone that is outside. 



Dallas Gold said:


> Yogi jumped on me today after I came in from walking Toby- just wanting to shower me with kisses- I told him down and he did, but we work on it all the time. He would love to jump but is learning that I'm not so happy with him when he does so he's keeping all four on the floor. His tail is lethal though!
> 
> Yogi only barks to alert, Toby does the same- none of it is aggressive but he fancies himself a watch dog and will let me know when he hears or sees something going on outside. I'm not an expert because I never discouraged it. Others will probably disagree, but I sort of like when solicitors walk away after he barks at them.


Wow what a good boy! Champ's jumping is also because he loves kisses, but will also jump if I am holding something in my hand he wants, which is usually a paper product. If I ask him to sit, he will, and if someone else asks him to sit, he will...so that takes the place of jumping!



Davidrob2 said:


> Harry is still intact. He is just under 10 months old. Our vet would like us to wait until about 18 months before we have him neutered mainly because of the growth plate issues that Sterregold mentioned. We have seen no adverse behavior -- although this past week I have noticed he has started marking every stop sign on our walks (he still doesn't lift his leg). No aggression and no desire to run. He does get overly excited during fetch sessions some days (bumping into us on the return and starting to jump) but that has been going on since he was young and is something we are working on. Like Champ, I have noticed he seems to get "picked on" -- but it is usually by dogs who, after the owners ask if their dogs can say hello, seem to turn on him after the initial sniff. We never go to dog parks or have him anywhere off leash where we can't control the contact. We have solved the issue by only letting him interact with dogs who we know have been socialized well. Even on our walks, we train so he is focused on us and not the other dogs or people passing by. As for the barking in the house, Harry has just started doing this -- but only to alert us that something is out of the norm. My ancient hair dryer started smoking the other day. Harry was barking at it before I even knew anything was wrong. He has started barking when the people come to pick up the trash or when someone come to the front door. Like DallasGold, I don't discourage it. My husband, who is in law enforcement, says it's a good crime deterrent.


I read your post and I felt like I wrote it! Very similar dogs and lives! My husband is also in law enforcement but he HATES the barking because he feels bad about the neighbors. I've asked the neighbors before if they can hear him and they said no, but now since it is hot the windows and doors are open often, so I am sure they can hear him now. But, I can hear their TV sometimes (it's that loud) so hopefully that says something about their hearing

Champ also does the stop to pee at different spots, but there is no consistency like with Harry. Although we did go to the vet yesterday for a nail trim and when we walked in, there was urine on the floor they forgot to clean up. I told them about it, they cleaned it up, and then Champ went back to the spot where the urine was and peed!! Oh I felt horrible...but it was sort of funny. 

And as far as the picking on goes, that is the exact same thing that happens to Champ. And we are also training him to focus on us instead of other people and dogs, which has been a huge help in actually deterring people from approaching us. I think they see me train him, and don't want to interrupt which is great! Do you take him for a lot of play dates? I don't have a lot of friends with dogs, and the ones that do have dogs that I don't want Champ to be socialized with. 

Harry sounds like a smart dog that he alerted you to the hair dryer! That's amazing!



Dallas Gold said:


> To be perfectly honest, our neutering decision rests entirely on Yogi's class schedule- he LOVES going to class so we would like to schedule him around his classes during a break! He also has a huge crush on teacher and I just cannot imagine him staying home to recover and not being able to see and love on her.


Awww I'm sure Yogi appreciates that! How's he doing in class?



DanaRuns said:


> Okay, I have a weird question. Let me preface it by saying that all my rescue boys have always been neutered (they come with that or as a condition to adoption), and my two show boys have always been intact. I haven't noticed any of the differences in temperament, aggression, etc., that people attribute to intact vs. neutered. I think a lot of it is just folklore.
> 
> So, my question: All things being equal, and _if you are responsible owner_ who won't let your dog run around making babies, why neuter, at all?


I don't think it's a weird question and I am not sure if it's a rhetorical question or if you do want clarification but to be honest, I haven't given it much thought. I would say to lessen the chance of cancer, but also because it's "tradition" in the sense that we've never had unneutered dogs. I mean I think it would also be something to ask breeders too because we came across a lot of breeders who had it in their contracts that we had to neuter, and some specified the age. So I guess there has to be a reason that people are doing it. But I do think you can be a responsible dog owner and still neuter, and the opposite is true as well. 




Dallas Gold said:


> Good question. I don't know except possibly to prevent prostate cancer in later years?


That was my thinking..



Swampcollie said:


> Bingo!!
> 
> There are a lot of people who assume that no dog will receive proper training and socialization, so they always advocate early spay/neuter. Neutering a dog does not take the place of proper training and socialization. A neutered dog with no manners is just as large a PIA as his intact counterpart is.
> 
> ...


I completely agree that people think they can get away with not training and neuter instead, and one of my friends is exactly like that. She never trained her second dog, and he was a terror! Finally one day he got hurt and went to the vet, and he was acting so crazy, and I think somewhat aggressive, and the vet said you absolutely have to neuter your dog, but I also think they said you have to train him. Well, she neutered him...and I don't think she did any formal training. I wont bring Champ around him at all.



Pammie said:


> Great question and one I continue to ponder. My Bryley is 2 1/2 and I am still waffling!:scratchch


Pammie, do you notice any of the things mentioned in the original post in Bryley? Such as aggression or not listening?


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

coaraujo said:


> I ask that all the time. I have no desire whatsoever to neuter my boys b/c really, whats the point?.


I suspect those on this board that are breeders and competitors in various events often just shake their heads when they see the spay/neuter topics along with all of the supposed behavior "Facts" that are so very very much myth. Nearly ALL of the dogs we see and deal with on a daily basis are Intact. They interact with other intact dogs all the time without incident. Once in a while you encounter a dog with bad temperament but they are the exception not the rule. 

Nearly all of the behavior "Facts" mentioned in the O.P. are TRAINING issues not hardwired behavior traits tied to a pair of gonads.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

FeatherRiverSam said:


> It sounds to me like you're doing fine with Champ. I don't know why it is other dogs seem to pick on him but my bet would be it has nothing to do with his still being intact. But this being a concern, and understandably so, I would be very careful about who I let him interact with and that would include all those people telling you he just wants to say hello. It's so often followed by gee he's never done that before...I'd carefully pick out his playmates and change direction when that "friendly" dog owner approaches.
> 
> My experience with intact dogs has been positive...my brothers got an intact 9 yr old English Setter who's one of the sweetest dogs I've ever meant. I think people find it convenient to blame bad behavior on whether or not a dog has been fixed or not. When more than likely the behavior is a result of poor training & socialization.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the information and for saying that! I had to laugh when you made the comment about how the incidents that have happened are usually followed up with a "my dog has never done that before," because it's happened mostly every time! I'm not sure if they are lying, or if it is in fact true, but regardless, it's annoying. 

Thank you also for sharing the article! It looks really interesting and I'm going to read it when I am done writing this post! We are very close to the humane society and we see our trainer again on Thursday and I plan to have a conversation with her about it. I know I mentioned it to her before, but I don't remember it getting talked about, although she did witness Champ being very submissive to people and to another dog, and actually this was something that she was concerned about because she said you don't want him to be that submissive, and when he goes to his submissive pose, you have to ask him to get up and move along because she said it's possible that later on it could turn more into aggression rather than submission...not sure if that's true or not. 



Swampcollie said:


> The odds of developing prostate cancer are HIGHER in neutered dogs that those left intact.


Hmm, didn't know that! Thanks for sharing!



coaraujo said:


> I think most of the questions you asked in your first post really come down to breeding and training like others have said. As for the health related points, I agree with what sterregold's mentioned. I've come to these conclusions by reading articles and numerous threads about the topic, speaking with my breeder, and then having my own personal experiences.
> 
> Here's my personal experience:
> I have two males, 10months (Oliver) and 1 year (Bernie). Both are intact. My 10 month old is from a reputable breeder, my 1 year old is from a BYB. Both mark (outside only) and occasionally lift their leg (haven't quite got the balance thing down yet ). They're both great with children, super friendly, and have very good house manners.
> ...



Wow thats great that Oliver gets to go to doggy day care. All the ones I've contacted say absolutely no intact dogs allowed! It's interesting you mentioned the temperament thing and as I said above, Champ is VERY submissive to other dogs. Often with bigger dogs, he will roll right on his back and expose his belly, and has sometimes done this with humans too right away. I'm not sure if they are picking up on the submission but I know our trainer said she is a tiny bit concerned about how submissive he is because she said she doesn't want this to turn into aggression. 

Thank you so much for the information and for sharing your story. It makes sense that temperament, lineage and training all play a crucial role in how the dogs turn out and more so than the neutering status.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Swampcollie said:


> I suspect those on this board that are breeders and competitors in various events often just shake their heads when they see the spay/neuter topics along with all of the supposed behavior "Facts" that are so very very much myth. Nearly ALL of the dogs we see and deal with on a daily basis are Intact. They interact with other intact dogs all the time without incident. Once in a while you encounter a dog with bad temperament but they are the exception not the rule.
> 
> Nearly all of the behavior "Facts" mentioned in the O.P. are TRAINING issues not hardwired behavior traits tied to a pair of gonads.


And that is why this forum is so great so that those of us that aren't breeders or competitors can ask questions in order to gain more knowledge! I started this thread because people make these statements as if they were "facts" and I wanted to do some fact checking with people that have more knowledge in this area than I do and from people that can debunk some of these myths by sharing their lived experiences.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Oh, I just wanted to add something on the topic of Champ being picked on. Some dogs just pick on puppies and young dogs. I'm not sure what the particular pack dynamic is, but I've seen it over and over. It's my biggest concern when taking Gibbs (7 mos. old) to a dog park. Gibbs is sweet, well mannered and intact. At dog shows and other venues with trained dogs, he has zero problems. But at some dog parks, he's like a lightening rod for dogs that for some reason feel they have to terrorize him.

I don't know what it is, but some dogs treat young dogs badly, whether they are intact or neutered.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

DanaRuns said:


> Oh, I just wanted to add something on the topic of Champ being picked on. Some dogs just pick on puppies and young dogs. I'm not sure what the particular pack dynamic is, but I've seen it over and over. It's my biggest concern when taking Gibbs (7 mos. old) to a dog park. Gibbs is sweet, well mannered and intact. At dog shows and other venues with trained dogs, he has zero problems. But at some dog parks, he's like a lightening rod for dogs that for some reason feel they have to terrorize him.
> 
> I don't know what it is, but some dogs treat young dogs badly, whether they are intact or neutered.


Ya that is a really good point, so thanks for sharing! I've had owners whose dogs have just picked on Champ say oh he doesnt like puppies...I'm like then why did you bring him over here to say hello!? Ugh!

Anyways though, I definitely think that could possibly relate to how other dogs are treating him, and I honestly wish I knew whether it was the puppy thing, or the intact thing. He's not like a lot of puppies that jump on other dogs, he's very well mannered, but I am guessing they can still smell from a mile away that he is a young dog. 

Is Gibbs pretty submissive? People have really labeled Champ a submissive dog because he will often roll onto his back, especially with older dogs.


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## Pammie (Jan 22, 2011)

SMBC said:


> Pammie, do you notice any of the things mentioned in the original post in Bryley? Such as aggression or not listening?


LOL! I have to admit I chuckled at the not listening part! My guy does not always listen and respond appropriately but I have never attributed it to him being intact but to me not being diligent in his training! 
I have never seen him be aggressive. But in full disclosure he has not had a lot of free play with other dogs. We walk with another dog on the weekend and he meets and greets other dogs on those walks and friends occasionally bring their dogs over, but thats it. He has always been polite in those circumstances. He is a part-time leg lifter but does not mark on the walks, which I think is odd. He is not much of a humper, it only happens when one specific stuffed animal get taken out of his special toy box (the toy box he does not have free access to because it contains all the toys he will chew up) and then he takes it to the couch and roughs it up!
There is no reason I see to neuter except if I ever would need to board him, it seems the places I have called keep intact dogs separate from the rest and don't get to play together. I dunno, maybe that is a good thing.
I have looked and then looked again at my breeder contract and I don't seen anything specific that says I have to neuter.
I need to just admit to myself I am not getting him neutered and stop thinking about it.

SMBC, so glad you started this thread. All of the thoughtful responses from our members have helped me tremendously!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

SMBC said:


> Is Gibbs pretty submissive? People have really labeled Champ a submissive dog because he will often roll onto his back, especially with older dogs.


Lol! Gibbs is anything but submissive. It's Gibbs' world, and the rest of us are just living in it. Being a puppy, he does roll over to older dogs upon first meeting them, then joyfully plays with them and tries to hump them (a dominance thing). I think the rolling over in a puppy is normal and doesn't necessarily indicate a submissive personality. Most puppies will do that. But if they still do it as adults, then they are submissive.

Gibbs competing with another dog for a tennis ball (and wouldn't even wait for it to be thrown):


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Pammie said:


> LOL! I have to admit I chuckled at the not listening part! My guy does not always listen and respond appropriately but I have never attributed it to him being intact but to me not being diligent in his training!
> I have never seen him be aggressive. But in full disclosure he has not had a lot of free play with other dogs. We walk with another dog on the weekend and he meets and greets other dogs on those walks and friends occasionally bring their dogs over, but thats it. He has always been polite in those circumstances. He is a part-time leg lifter but does not mark on the walks, which I think is odd. He is not much of a humper, it only happens when one specific stuffed animal get taken out of his special toy box (the toy box he does not have free access to because it contains all the toys he will chew up) and then he takes it to the couch and roughs it up!
> There is no reason I see to neuter except if I ever would need to board him, it seems the places I have called keep intact dogs separate from the rest and don't get to play together. I dunno, maybe that is a good thing.
> I have looked and then looked again at my breeder contract and I don't seen anything specific that says I have to neuter.
> ...


Haha well he's still so young, and I doubt any dog listens 100% of the time. Thanks also for sharing your experiences. Champ also doesn't get a lot of free play with other dogs, but the last time he did it was with a puppy that was smaller than him, and the puppy totally dominated him, which is usually the case, but Champ is pretty gentle with all dogs. I wish I knew someone that had a dog that Champ could play with but unfortunately we dont=( Too bad we aren't all in the same area...



DanaRuns said:


> Lol! Gibbs is anything but submissive. It's Gibbs' world, and the rest of us are just living in it. Being a puppy, he does roll over to older dogs upon first meeting them, then joyfully plays with them and tries to hump them (a dominance thing). I think the rolling over in a puppy is normal and doesn't necessarily indicate a submissive personality. Most puppies will do that. But if they still do it as adults, then they are submissive.
> 
> Gibbs competing with another dog for a tennis ball (and wouldn't even wait for it to be thrown):


Haha thanks for sharing! So then how can you actually tell whether a dog is dominant or submissive? You bring up a lot of points and it made me wonder then if he really is actually submissive, or if he is just a really well mannered puppy?


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## Davidrob2 (Dec 10, 2012)

SMBC said:


> I read your post and I felt like I wrote it! Very similar dogs and lives! My husband is also in law enforcement but he HATES the barking because he feels bad about the neighbors. I've asked the neighbors before if they can hear him and they said no, but now since it is hot the windows and doors are open often, so I am sure they can hear him now. But, I can hear their TV sometimes (it's that loud) so hopefully that says something about their hearing


I should have added that while we don't discourage the barking, we don't let it continue past one or two barks. We check out what got Harry going in the first place and then reassure him that everything is OK. I also have continued something I saw Harry's breeder do with his sire when he alerted her that there were strangers (us) on the property. I say "Thank you Harry for being such a good watchdog" and let him know what a good boy he is for "telling" me that someone or something was out of place. He always struts around for a bit afterward since he is so proud of himself.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Be careful with barking. It can quickly escalate and become a bad habit that is difficult to stop. There are a LOT of dogs that have lost their homes and lives because of it. 

When in doubt, discourage barking.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

SMBC said:


> Right, good points! Can I ask you another question without changing the subject of this thread?
> 
> I have heard from a couple of trainers that sometimes dogs need these "negative" experiences to learn how to behave in the dog world. The one sitter yesterday told me that rarely do these interactions cause blood, and that Champ needs to learn how to be polite in the dog world. My own opinion...I don't agree with this at all, not one bit! First of all, in all the situations that have occurred, Champ has not done anything wrong (and I'm not just saying that because he's my dog). And, I don't think he needs to get attacked, regardless if it draws blood or not, to learn how to behave. In fact, I think that would change the way he behaves. Anyways though, this is the second time I've heard it from a pet sitter, not even a trainer I guess, and both I'm not working with.


I completely disagree with these person, and I won't call them a trainer because they are so wrong they can't possibly know the first thing about dog behavior.

Your puppy is NICE, he already knows how to be polite! Its the dogs that are being aggressive towards him that are displaying unacceptable behavior.

I do not believe staying intact will make him aggressive, that is just not true. There are multiple breeders, or people ho just did not neuter, on this board with intact adult males, and their dogs are well behaved.

Have play dates with dogs you know are good with him and avoid the others. Take him places that dogs don't frequent often, like hardware stores, some banks allow dogs, restaurants with patios, etc., for general socialization.

Don't let rumors pressure you into neutering before you would choose to.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Davidrob2 said:


> I should have added that while we don't discourage the barking, we don't let it continue past one or two barks. We check out what got Harry going in the first place and then reassure him that everything is OK. I also have continued something I saw Harry's breeder do with his sire when he alerted her that there were strangers (us) on the property. I say "Thank you Harry for being such a good watchdog" and let him know what a good boy he is for "telling" me that someone or something was out of place. He always struts around for a bit afterward since he is so proud of himself.


Haha that is cute! But I have a question about that...I'm scared to reinforce the barking and one thing I worried about was giving him "attention" for his barking, but it sounds like what you are doing is working. You don't notice it then continue right?



Swampcollie said:


> Be careful with barking. It can quickly escalate and become a bad habit that is difficult to stop. There are a LOT of dogs that have lost their homes and lives because of it.
> 
> When in doubt, discourage barking.


Thanks for the info. Would you be able to tell me about techniques that can discourage the barking?



mylissyk said:


> I completely disagree with these person, and I won't call them a trainer because they are so wrong they can't possibly know the first thing about dog behavior.
> 
> Your puppy is NICE, he already knows how to be polite! Its the dogs that are being aggressive towards him that are displaying unacceptable behavior.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for saying that! And I completely agree with you! We actually really socialize Champ with humans a lot...we bring him to home depot, the car wash, the mall and other places where there are a lot of people, it's just that he hasn't gotten a lot of dog socialization. Although, he does say hi to dogs frequently on walks, but I would say about 75% of dogs have been "mean" and have barked, lunged or looked or acted aggressive toward Champ, even from afar. 

Thank you though for saying all that and your passion! It makes me feel better!


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## thorbreafortuna (Jun 9, 2013)

Thanks for posting this question, as I'm sure I would sooner or later be asking it. I don't have any objective wisdom but I'll share my experience. Thor is going to be my first golden, but I did live with one while I was in college though he didn't belong to me. He was intact, the sweetest dog ever, very well mannered and the reason why I always wanted a golden. Also, my last dog was a German Shepherd, Drac. He was left intact because neutering wasn't such a must back in my home country at the time. He was also very sweet tempered, not aggressive at all (to people or other dogs), he didn't even hump! Only twice in his life someone became seriously threatening to me, and Drac positioned himself in front of me and growled a warning. Didn't attack, didn't touch the person at all, just warned him. Based on the information others have shared here, I'm thinking I'll wait at least a year to neuter Thor. Good luck!


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## Davidrob2 (Dec 10, 2012)

SMBC said:


> Haha that is cute! But I have a question about that...I'm scared to reinforce the barking and one thing I worried about was giving him "attention" for his barking, but it sounds like what you are doing is working. You don't notice it then continue right?


I guess I should clarify. We are trying to teach Harry that there is a time and place for barking to alert us. If Harry goes outside and starts barking at the neighbors in their yards and everything that moves on the street, he is corrected and comes inside immediately. No "thank you", no praise, no attention. He loses his outside privileges. However, if someone strange comes to the front door and he gives a quick "something's not right" bark, he gets a "thank you" and pat on the shoulder. We are working on the "hush" command as well. Harry is a whiner so it is more focused on that behavior, but I can see it could have applications for unwanted barking as well.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

thorbreafortuna said:


> Thanks for posting this question, as I'm sure I would sooner or later be asking it. I don't have any objective wisdom but I'll share my experience. Thor is going to be my first golden, but I did live with one while I was in college though he didn't belong to me. He was intact, the sweetest dog ever, very well mannered and the reason why I always wanted a golden. Also, my last dog was a German Shepherd, Drac. He was left intact because neutering wasn't such a must back in my home country at the time. He was also very sweet tempered, not aggressive at all (to people or other dogs), he didn't even hump! Only twice in his life someone became seriously threatening to me, and Drac positioned himself in front of me and growled a warning. Didn't attack, didn't touch the person at all, just warned him. Based on the information others have shared here, I'm thinking I'll wait at least a year to neuter Thor. Good luck!


Thank you so much for sharing your experience. It's nice to hear from people who know or have dogs that are intact, and are great dogs!



Davidrob2 said:


> I guess I should clarify. We are trying to teach Harry that there is a time and place for barking to alert us. If Harry goes outside and starts barking at the neighbors in their yards and everything that moves on the street, he is corrected and comes inside immediately. No "thank you", no praise, no attention. He loses his outside privileges. However, if someone strange comes to the front door and he gives a quick "something's not right" bark, he gets a "thank you" and pat on the shoulder. We are working on the "hush" command as well. Harry is a whiner so it is more focused on that behavior, but I can see it could have applications for unwanted barking as well.


Right thanks for the clarification. It sounds like you are doing a great job with Harry. I looked online yesterday about how to curb the barking, and so we have been trying that and it seems to be working so far.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

So I had a long conversation with our vet today and it was really great to hear her opinion too. 

She said that if she were to get a puppy today, she would wait to neuter until 18 months, if at all. She said people in our county are particularly uptight about neutering, and that is where these rumors are coming from. She said she has no concern that Champ will become aggressive but did warn that leaving him intact could lead to "marking" inside, but this is not a guarantee that it will happen. She said there is so much evidence to support waiting and that the only downside is that I will continue to get bullied from people in the community who don't agree with him being intact. 

I also talked to her about other dogs bullying Champ, and how I was worried that it was because he is intact. She said she isn't positive thats the reason, and it could be that they are picking up on his "submissive" personality and that is why they are reacting to him, or she said it could simply be that in the area that I am walking him there are a lot of leash aggressive dogs. I talked to Champ's brothers owner and he said that his dog hasn't elicited the same negative reactions that Champ elicits, and his dog is intact, so really that may not be what it is at all. She said she would hate for us to neuter him and the aggression continues because it's actually related to something else.

So...we are waiting. I really appreciate everyones knowledge and support, and we will continue to stand our ground no matter what anyone says. If a particular pet sitter doesn't want to watch him because he's intact and a "liability," we will just have to find another pet sitter!


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

I am glad you had a good talk and you decided to wait with neutering if ever.
About the marking, no, a well behaved dog will not mark/pee on anything in the house.
None of my dogs ever did.
I guess you just need to keep him away from the mean dogs, they are the problem and they have the problem, not your dog. 

Good luck to you and your furbaby.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

There is overwhelming research to show that it is beneficial to wait until after puberty to alter a pet, especially males. I understand the pressure people that don't know the research will put onto others. It's unfair for them to push their own opinion when they may not have the latest research and information at their fingertips. There has been a stigma around spay/neuter for the last 20 years-- if you don't do it at 6 months, you are a terrible dog owner. That is clearly not the case as there are responsible owners with intact animals that have never been allowed to breed but have been given the chance to reach full maturity for the health benefits. 

I have intact males and know many. I think if you put the time into training and are consistent, you will not have any issues. If your dog doesn't respect you at 5 months, he likely won't at 18 months but it isn't because he is intact.  Be diligent in training him and be diligent in what dogs you allow him to interact with. I don't do dogparks with my boys, they get picked on. Gibbs is the most happy-go-lucky and jovial dog and he plays so well with other intact males too. Kudos to you for doing your research.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Good for you! 

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## darcylee (Jun 28, 2013)

I'm so happy to have experienced golden owners and their wisdom on this forum. I'm new to the forum and new to having a golden. My husband and I have a 12 week male, Maximus. We took him in for his shots yesterday and I posed the question to the vet tech about neutering. Her response was "anytime, but definitely before 6 months", which of course prompted us to immediately start researching once we got home.  Our research lines up with what I've read on this board. I wouldn't want to do anything that could cause him to not properly mature. I'm happy to see many of the negative rumors about intact dogs displaced.

I'm very glad to read about your intact goldens and their well trained behaviors. We are working hard with Maximus to ensure he is a well trained member of our family. I feel reassured from all of your expertise, and I thank you for it!


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

We decided like this:

• First vet said it's best to do it at 6 months. She was also asking for $800 to neuter him, and said the longer we wait, the more it will cost. I'm guessing those were the office prices though..I dunno

• We moved, and our new (awesome) vet met him and said "if you can wait a few months, then wait. He doesn't seem aggressive, not humping, not causing trouble, so give him time to grow". This vet wanted $450 regardless of size/age.

• So we decided to neuter him at 8 months. 

• 8 months rolled around and he was still such a good boy...so we decided to he had worked hard to keep his balls  - we settled on 12 months

• 12 months rolled around and we thought...well...it's getting tough with all the other dogs always chasing him, let's just set a FINAL date and get it done. 

• On Valentines day Walnut was neutered, for no reason other than other dogs targeting him and marking (outdoors) was getting a little annoying even though we were able to control it. He marked twice indoors, and I believe we got that under control too. 

*He was finally neutered at a few days shy of 15 months. *

If I had to do it all over again, I would have waited another 3 months. I'm pretty sure our next dog will be fixed at 18 months or later. 

Our biggest and most annoying issue was other neutered males targeting him. He was attacked and bitten in the face by a husky. Otherwise, we went to off-leash parks, jogs, play time with a bunch of neighbors dogs, etc no problem.

Here is what we noticed before and after neutering:

Before: Never finished 3 cups of food...always left a bit for later (or next day)
After: He doesn't know when to stop. 

Before: Recall was 80%. He had to mark, then come back (or stop 1/2 way, mark, and continue running back to us)
After: Recall is now 100%

Before: He had more energy, enjoyed running around on his own...had a mind of his own (which we liked) and never really followed us everywhere unless told to do so
After: HE ALWAYS IN THE WAY. lol. ALWAYS. On-leash, off-leash. doesn't matter. He feels the need to always be close. It's cute but annoying when he does in the house. 

Before: Marked quite a bit
After: hardly ever marks. In the last 2-3 months he's marked maybe 1 or 2 times.

We noticed all of the above almost immediately after neutering....specially the hunger thing and recall improvement.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

SMBC said:


> So I had a long conversation with our vet today and it was really great to hear her opinion too.
> 
> She said that if she were to get a puppy today, she would wait to neuter until 18 months, if at all. She said people in our county are particularly uptight about neutering, and that is where these rumors are coming from. She said she has no concern that Champ will become aggressive but did warn that leaving him intact could lead to "marking" inside, but this is not a guarantee that it will happen. She said there is so much evidence to support waiting and that the only downside is that I will continue to get bullied from people in the community who don't agree with him being intact.
> 
> ...


I think it sounds like you have a great vet who is aware of the current research. Today's recommendations are in fact much different than those of 20 years ago. I attended a fantastic seminar a few weeks ago with Chris Zink, DVM, PhD and a whole bunch of other important letters after her name. She provided us with some great articles on the benefits and risks of spay/neuter, and specifically mentioned that with a golden (she has a golden herself), it makes a whole lot more sense to assume the risks of testicular cancer associated with NOT neutering as opposed to the higher risks of hemangiosarcoma, lymphoma, osteosarcoma and joint problems associated with neutering. She actually recommends not neutering a male dog at all, provided you are willing to keep him under control and not allow him to roam unattended. I am going to attempt to attach one of those articles here (particularly interesting is the extensive list of references at the end). I have a female, who is still intact at the age of 2, and the recommendations here are a little different since unspayed bitches are at a greater risk for pyometra, which is a deadly uterine infection. For female, she recommended waiting at least 2 heat cycles, then spaying if the bitch is not going to be bred. Educating yourself will help you stand up to others who may disagree with your decision. Zink actually talks about behavioral considerations in the attached article, and cites studies indicating that arguments about neutered dogs behaving better both in the house and toward other dogs don't hold water. 

View attachment Zink4.pdf


As for the pet sitter, I work part-time for a successful local pet sitting company. We deal with truly aggressive dogs that many other pet sitters won't touch with a 10 foot pole. I can't imagine turning away an un-neutered golden because he might be a "liability". That's baloney. You most definitely need to find someone with more experience who understands canine body language. Your pet sitter should never be allowing your dog to interact with other strange dogs while under his/her care anyway, IMO. THAT'S the liability. 

On a side note, I spent last week in a town that was so dog-friendly dogs could be under voice control almost anywhere. Imagine many, many off-leash dogs sauntering around town with their owners. Not once did I witness a curled lip or display of aggression. The dogs were all able to approach each other and greet each other appropriately, or choose to ignore each other. Sometimes I wonder if the leash aggression I see occasionally in my own town is really something humans have created by hindering dogs' abilities to communicate with each other in addition to poor socialization, etc. Hopefully that makes sense.


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## caroline162 (Jun 11, 2013)

CarolinaCasey said:


> There is overwhelming research to show that it is beneficial to wait until after puberty to alter a pet, especially males. I understand the pressure people that don't know the research will put onto others. It's unfair for them to push their own opinion when they may not have the latest research and information at their fingertips. There has been a stigma around spay/neuter for the last 20 years-- if you don't do it at 6 months, you are a terrible dog owner. That is clearly not the case as there are responsible owners with intact animals that have never been allowed to breed but have been given the chance to reach full maturity for the health benefits.
> 
> I have intact males and know many. I think if you put the time into training and are consistent, you will not have any issues. If your dog doesn't respect you at 5 months, he likely won't at 18 months but it isn't because he is intact.  Be diligent in training him and be diligent in what dogs you allow him to interact with. I don't do dogparks with my boys, they get picked on. Gibbs is the most happy-go-lucky and jovial dog and he plays so well with other intact males too. Kudos to you for doing your research.


I just wanted to jump in (hijack!) and mention that the risk of breast cancer in a bitch spayed before her first heat is almost nonexistent vs. one spayed later. After having puppies, it increases even more. Having lost a dog (who was did not get and spay until she was 7 years old) to breast cancer, I would spay a female pet before her first heat if I were to get a female puppy at some point.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

^ May be true, but for me, a decision to delay spaying is also about balancing risks of other more aggressive kinds of cancer. I too had a dog with mammary cancer - my rescue girl wasn't spayed until age 5 and had birthed at least one litter, but likely more. Her tumor was highly malignant and she survived 4.5 years after surgery. A brain tumor sent her to the bridge. 

The Zink (2005) article linked above says the following about mammary cancer: "_the figures for increased risk of mammary cancer must be compared with the 200 to 400% increased risk of other cancers in spayed females. While about 30% of mammary cancers are malignant (22), as in humans, when caught and surgically removed early, the prognosis is very good.(23) This is in comparison to the other cancers listed, such as hemangiosarcoma and bladder cancer, which are often fatal. Given the balance of cancer risks listed above, owners of canine athletes should strongly consider leaving the ovaries intact for at least two heat cycles. In addition, the veterinary field should be developing programs for regular examinations including imaging to facilitate early diagnosis of mammary cancer in all intact female dogs, as has been performed in women for decades."_ The references corresponding to the numbers can be found in the full article. It's definitely interesting stuff, food for thought. It contradicts what I've always been told about spaying and reducing mammary cancer, so coming around to delayed spaying has been a bit of a philosophical shift for me.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

The increased risk in mammary cancer in female goldens spayed after one cycle is something like 2-3%. It may be different in other breeds, but for GRs, I believe the benefits outweigh the risks but I probably would not wait more than two cycles. 


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

cgriffin said:


> I am glad you had a good talk and you decided to wait with neutering if ever.
> About the marking, no, a well behaved dog will not mark/pee on anything in the house.
> None of my dogs ever did.
> I guess you just need to keep him away from the mean dogs, they are the problem and they have the problem, not your dog.
> ...


Thank you for the information. So far, Champ hasn't marked anything, so hopefully it wont ever occur. I definitely just need to keep being aware of the other dogs around us and I have also learned to be more assertive when people approach without asking! 



CarolinaCasey said:


> There is overwhelming research to show that it is beneficial to wait until after puberty to alter a pet, especially males. I understand the pressure people that don't know the research will put onto others. It's unfair for them to push their own opinion when they may not have the latest research and information at their fingertips. There has been a stigma around spay/neuter for the last 20 years-- if you don't do it at 6 months, you are a terrible dog owner. That is clearly not the case as there are responsible owners with intact animals that have never been allowed to breed but have been given the chance to reach full maturity for the health benefits.
> 
> I have intact males and know many. I think if you put the time into training and are consistent, you will not have any issues. If your dog doesn't respect you at 5 months, he likely won't at 18 months but it isn't because he is intact.  Be diligent in training him and be diligent in what dogs you allow him to interact with. I don't do dogparks with my boys, they get picked on. Gibbs is the most happy-go-lucky and jovial dog and he plays so well with other intact males too. Kudos to you for doing your research.


Thanks for sharing your experience. Champ is generally a great boy and I know right now he is going through his adolescent stage, so he is testing his limits. However, we continue to work on his training and have a private trainer that has helped us to do things we never learned to do with our old dog. I think it's so weird that there is such a stigma and my vet was saying that for years now shelters have neutered immediately, or under 6 months, and that is where the stigma and the need to neuter early came from, but now, she said the one good thing about these vet corporations is that they keep electronic medical records, and more research is beginning to emerge about dogs that have been neutered too early. I really love how supportive and knowledgeable our vet is, and I am glad we at least have her support on this, even if the community disagrees!



Dallas Gold said:


> Good for you!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thank you! It's nice to have the support of our vet and she was like don't let yourself get bullied, just like you're not letting Champ get bullied



darcylee said:


> I'm so happy to have experienced golden owners and their wisdom on this forum. I'm new to the forum and new to having a golden. My husband and I have a 12 week male, Maximus. We took him in for his shots yesterday and I posed the question to the vet tech about neutering. Her response was "anytime, but definitely before 6 months", which of course prompted us to immediately start researching once we got home.  Our research lines up with what I've read on this board. I wouldn't want to do anything that could cause him to not properly mature. I'm happy to see many of the negative rumors about intact dogs displaced.
> 
> I'm very glad to read about your intact goldens and their well trained behaviors. We are working hard with Maximus to ensure he is a well trained member of our family. I feel reassured from all of your expertise, and I thank you for it!


I'm so glad that this has been helpful for you as it has for me! I hope your vet is supportive of your decision and if not, I would definitely consider getting another vet. We are very lucky to have a knowledgeable and supportive vet, and she provides us with a wealth of information every time we go in there, and will call me back within 24 hours just to answer a question. However, it took awhile to find her and she is such a great fit for us! I've had such bad experiences with vets in the past (the last one killed my last dog) so I know how important it is to find a vet you love! 

Good luck and please post a pic of your little guy!



Walnut_the_Nut said:


> We decided like this:
> 
> • First vet said it's best to do it at 6 months. She was also asking for $800 to neuter him, and said the longer we wait, the more it will cost. I'm guessing those were the office prices though..I dunno
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for the information! That is so helpful! That's so weird that his eating was different before and after..I've never heard of that! I asked my vet about "marking" outside, and she said that it's a totally normal thing and that it's just a male dog thing, no matter if they are neutered or not, some do it and some don't regardless of neutering. My last dog was neutered at 6 months and later on started "marking" outside...so from what she said I guess it's dog dependent. I'm glad to hear recall improved and that is something we continue to work on. However, Champ is by my side all the time when in the house, so I hope that doesn't change when or if we neuter

I really appreciate you sharing your experience as it is really helpful for me to hear about peoples actual experiences with their intact dog! 



KeaColorado said:


> I think it sounds like you have a great vet who is aware of the current research. Today's recommendations are in fact much different than those of 20 years ago. I attended a fantastic seminar a few weeks ago with Chris Zink, DVM, PhD and a whole bunch of other important letters after her name. She provided us with some great articles on the benefits and risks of spay/neuter, and specifically mentioned that with a golden (she has a golden herself), it makes a whole lot more sense to assume the risks of testicular cancer associated with NOT neutering as opposed to the higher risks of hemangiosarcoma, lymphoma, osteosarcoma and joint problems associated with neutering. She actually recommends not neutering a male dog at all, provided you are willing to keep him under control and not allow him to roam unattended. I am going to attempt to attach one of those articles here (particularly interesting is the extensive list of references at the end). I have a female, who is still intact at the age of 2, and the recommendations here are a little different since unspayed bitches are at a greater risk for pyometra, which is a deadly uterine infection. For female, she recommended waiting at least 2 heat cycles, then spaying if the bitch is not going to be bred. Educating yourself will help you stand up to others who may disagree with your decision. Zink actually talks about behavioral considerations in the attached article, and cites studies indicating that arguments about neutered dogs behaving better both in the house and toward other dogs don't hold water.
> 
> View attachment 221450
> 
> ...


Thank you for all the information! It is so helpful! We do have a really great vet who stays very current on the research, which I appreciate. Before she does anything with our animals she tells us the pros and cons, and the research to back it up. Right off the bat when we brought Champ in for his first appointment we talked about neutering and she told us about all the research to wait, and said she would absolutely support us in waiting. I really love her and am glad we found her!


Thank you all for such great advice and I am glad this thread has helped me and others!


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## GR1 (Jul 13, 2013)

I just recently became the proud parent of a 10 week old female GR named Ginger  The spaying topic came up and I luckily stumbled across this site and this post. Another site I researched came out of UC Davis 
http://news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10498 dated February this year. I'm pretty sure now I will wait or never spay Ginger and just make sure I'm a good parent with consistent training and love and see how this works. Thanks again for all the post and this forum!

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