# Exceptions



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Should they be?and if so, made by whom?
When is it that a breeder has been around long enough to know when an exception is warranted?
Whose word is good enough to say 'this bitch or this dog is worth an exception'?
What warranty should accompany an exception to the Code?

I'm parsing out a future BE topic on just that and since I cannot think as everyone might, have a need for the ways people rationalize making 'AN EXCEPTION' to what we know is what works health wise. I'd like to be able to outline how this goes down typically (and for the sake of the topic, we'll discuss elbows- though I know hearts and hips and eyes all might have same reasoning behind). We KNOW elbow clearances have declined the %age of ED. We also know that the ED we still see could be from a weakness in a sporting dog's elbow construction that presents itself as ED Gr1. AFter all, that makes good sense- a sporting dogs elbows SHOULD be able to withstand minor accidents...

Is an exception made for Gr1 elbows, and both, or unilateral? Grade 2? It seems to me that that the common one (uni /Gr1) for exceptions is this and I wonder- under what circumstances would this be "OK"? How many breeding years in should this (if ever) be a 'breeders option' per say?
What if one starts making exceptions from first litter? Or year one? Or year ten? What does that say for the basis for exceptions? And what might it say about the future for the breeder as far as peers go?

Is it about the success of the animal? 
The rarity of the pedigree? 
And if the pedigree is not 'rare enough' to warrant fudging the rules, is the success of the animal alone ever worth fudging the rules?
Should the rules ever be fudged? 

If one's mentor advises breeding bad elbows, is that mentor a good mentor? Or not? Mentor choice is the most important choice one ever makes imo. What if one chooses an exception maker as a mentor? Should mentors come in pairs?
Is it about the investment in the dog or bitch? How much money invested makes an exception "worth it"?

So- what's it take for an animal, bitch or dog, to be 'worth' breeding anyway, even if that animal has failed OFAs? I am using elbows because OFA is the only game in town for elbows. We all know hips can be shopped for. 
What would make it 'worth' it for a puppy person, or a wanna be breeder to have a puppy from a bitch or dog with failed elbows? What circumstances make it ok to make an exception? 
I'm particularly interested in hearing from those who have either chosen one or the other re: exceptions, and from the people who would consider an exception in a sire or dam for their own buy. Not that the other people's opins are not valuable, but for the sake of my parsing for a future topic, I particularly want to know the reasons for either exceptions made or declined (because those may not be just because it's 'against the rules'- could be something like not wanting to warrant a litter of future elbow trainwrecks?) or reasons one would still buy a puppy from such a pedigree. Thanks all!
Sorry for the ramble. I'm trying to get cohesive thoughts down for the topic and oftentimes w me that means a little stream of consciousness sometimes...


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Interesting question and hope the breeders here provide their perspectives. As a buyer "exceptions" would complicate the process of picking a breeder or pedigree. It's hard enough to find a good breeder or even read pedigrees, OFA and review k9data to ensure the healthiest pup you can find. 

While I do trust the long time breeders to know much more about the genetics than I do but do breeders want to explain why they made a decision to breed a dog with failed... whatever? How many people would fail to even contact a breeder because of this? Will potential puppy buyers assume you aren't a credible breeder by breeding failed? I also understand there is a limited gene pool to work with but can't help but wonder if this would open a can of worms.

I have seen many performance lines breed with failed elbows and wondered what was so important about this dog that they would do this. I would imagine a working dog would be the first to need good structure. But how many people even understand what a performance gold is? But as you know, I'm just a casual buyer not a breeder with all the experience you guys have.

Most people know my girls situation from what was considered a good breeder, she fudged failed eyes and look where that got me. Makes you wonder what other shortcuts were made or was it a shortcut or a plan? What was she trying to get from this stud? She of course would never explain this decision. I admit my reaction to failed eye exam may have been extreme but do you want to take that chance for someone like me to file complaints to the world because of one pup (that I'm aware of anyway) that backfired in the choice?

I'm looking forward to following this thread, very interesting. Sorry if I didn't grasp the concept you were looking for but hope my POV is useful.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

thank you- I really hope to gather thoughts other than my own re: breeding fails (in anything, though I do plan on elbows being 'the one' in discussion).... I could eventually probably figure most of the reasons people use (excuses?) but given my limited time to get this together, thought the ideas others have heard of, or used themselves, might give me more to do pro-con on...


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

puddles everywhere said:


> I have seen many performance lines breed with failed elbows and wondered what was so important about this dog that they would do this. I would imagine a working dog would be the first to need good structure. But how many people even understand what a performance gold is? But as you know, I'm just a casual buyer not a breeder with all the experience you guys have.


This is an interesting topic. I recently saw a performance litter from a breeder I have been watching for a while that disappointed me due to not having all clearances. I will say in response to the sentence above that I was approached about breeding my male a few years ago by several people that hunt golden's. Not field titled, but hunting dog people. My son guided with him for years and he obtained quite a reputation among a group of hunters. I had never considered breeding him, but at age 7 I really considered a specific breeding. I had his hips and elbows done, and he failed elbows. The vet said it could just be from working. He may have passed at age 2. He had no symptoms at the time, but I'm just not a breeder. I was surprised that it didn't seem to matter to the people that wanted to breed to him. They do own good dogs, many of which are titled. It was a breeding that most puppies would have been spoken for and not advertised.

I sometimes now regret not doing it just because he is an amazing dog, and I can't imagine how I will get through the day he passes on. That being said, he now has some other health issues, and does have a slight limp on his left front. He had never had a vet visit for anything other then normal check ups until he turned 8. His breeding isn't really rare, although he is a cross from a field line and a conformation line.

I would love to see some of the reasons this would be acceptable. I'm sure there are some good ones and it may help us all to understand.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I started to respond this morning, but then began feeling too irritated and annoyed to finish. My point of view is exceptions if you do them need to be rare and should be based on something more than "don't throw the baby out with the bath water" reasoning. 

My personal experience with this as a puppy buyer years ago was contacting a fairly good breeder and getting on her waitlist. I gave her my sob story about owning a boy with bilateral Grade III elbow dysplasia, and indicated that was one of the hugest reasons why I was not going back to the same breeder (who was offering me a 1/2 off deal as a previous owner - and mind you, this breeder NEVER bred dogs who had failed anything!). 

We were almost at the point of me sending a check, when I double checked clearances.

Sure enough - the sire for the litter had a cazillion odd clearances listed like thyroid, pattella, etc... and it did the job at distracting me from the missing clearance the first time I checked. 

The dog had elbow dysplasia.

What angered me the most was the breeder listened to me talk about elbow dysplasia as I had, and never once did she bring up the elephant that she KNEW was in the room. 

One of the things I hate the most is when people are deceptive. 

This was a good breeder who had everything else I hoped for, including the "look". But there is just no puppy or future dog pretty enough for me be OK with an increased risk of elbow dysplasia.

I'm neurotic enough about it that even when people do the CT scan route, I'm skeptical about that being enough for me. Meaning, it isn't. It's still shows something is wrong and you have to think extra hard about breeding it. Because structure is causing OFA to spot something on the xrays where it doesn't exist with majority of other dogs who clear?

I've heard of people making exceptions for juvenile cataracts. It's the food causing them. Never mind them continuing to have issues....but bigger point is there's a number of people who want to make it OK to breed dogs who have cataracts, on the basis that it doesn't do any real harm to the dogs and according to them we are artificially shrinking the breeding pool too much.

I've heard of people making exceptions for inbreeding (breeding siblings, half siblings, mother/son or father/daughter or grandfather/granddaughter, cousins, etc) on the basis that there's a historic precedent of this being the best way to "improve" what they breed as a kennel. Which is stuff that they do in other breeds. And oh yeah, those other breeds either DON'T have the health problems that goldens have or they have FAR WORSE problems (cancer with FCR and BMD's).

I've heard of people making exceptions for how they breed. For example, there's folks with European line goldens and they've decided that means they do what Europeans or Canadians do when it comes to clearances and age when it's OK to breed the dogs. 

My take is there's enough nice dogs out there which you can breed to. And titles are meaningless in the bigger scheme of things if you are breeding unhealthy or poor quality dogs.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Elbows are the one I hear the most about- it's the reasoning for the exceptions I am interested in understanding (because to me- like you, Kate- it should be so rare it isn't heard of. And I hear about it lots).
Who reads these CTs? Who actually 'clears' the dog that has some anomaly that OFA is seeing? Does that (presumed) specialist see the anomaly too? What caused it in the first place if not ED? What does the specialist call it?

And if one has a unilateral ED- let's just say a Gr1- what I would like to know is how people justify the risk taking...is it the $$ invested in the titles, or the rarity of the pedigree, or what else?


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I can see breeding an exceptional dog/bitch with grade one elbows IF they have been cleared by CT scan. I do believe x-rays aren't the best diagnostic tool for elbows and unrelated artifacts can be diagnosed as grade one. But if the dog is so great and has a good history of passing elbows, invest in a CT or don't breed. I hope I never have to be in that situation but I certainly wouldn't judge someone who's dog passed CT.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

My mind goes to @ that point, how do we know a dog was cleared by CT? 
OFA doesn't take CT results. Is there a level of professional (ex board cert radiologist vs board cert ortho or both?) that should be doing these CTs to make them acceptable?
And if it were an artifact, that's easy enough to fix- take another rad and resubmit. I don't think artifacts are a good reason to fail an OFA.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Prism Goldens said:


> And if one has a unilateral ED- let's just say a Gr1- what I would like to know is how people justify the risk taking...is it the $$ invested in the titles, or the rarity of the pedigree, or what else?


What I've heard from some people is bilateral hip or elbow dysplasia is more likely to be hereditary.

Unilateral, they think, could be caused by injury. And people HAVE bred dogs who have unilateral ED and not destroyed their breeding programs. And to be very fair, some are very careful in handling these cases - and breed to more active/performance pedigrees where I think more is known about the pedigrees simply because you might have full litters getting everything checked. 

One I know of was owned by a good friend who I still miss very much.  And I miss her dogs. For some years I had been planning to buy a pup from her some day. Anyways...

I knew her girlie through classes - nothing really stood out either way aside from her being very much what I liked in goldens. Blond, fluffy, good bone, very sweet temperament.... basics like that. 

Around the time shortly before I got Bertie (a few months before), she had a litter in the works which I was very excited about with this girl x a very big name boy. The CH sire she chose had one of those LOADED pedigrees. But found out the girlie had unilateral ED.

I balked about getting a puppy from the litter even though I DID FEEL it was a safer choice than the prior one which I mentioned above. 

The girlie was bred one other time that I know of (checking K9data), again to a big name CH boy with one of those performance loaded pedigrees. 

Between the two litters, she produced 2 MACH's + a CH/MH son. 

Basically long look back, the breeder made the right decisions while breeding a girlie with unilateral elbow dysplasia. 

Please note - she did cover herself by taking the elbow rads to a number of specialists for expert opinions on whether the failing elbow was dysplasia or an injury. And I think she had a big orthopedic specialist sign off on that for her, saying it was unlikely to be ED. 

^^^^ That's a bit different than somebody knowingly buying a CH stud who failed elbows for her program and using him with her girls because he was too good to throw away. The original owner/breeder of the dog had intended to place him.

With the other boy - he did produce dogs who passed their clearances and publicly posted - only one pup with elbow dysplasia.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

As a performance puppy buyer, I would definitely consider buying a puppy from a litter where one of the parents failed the elbow OFA exam. However, I'd only do it if this dog had been doing intense field work (think field trial dog) and was cleared by a CT Scan. I know for German Shepherds, their health clearances are sent to Europe (SV) and elbows are graded its not a simple pass/fail. 

I would not consider a puppy from a parent with failed elbows if it was a pet or even a show home. I think there are enough quality dogs in that arena to warrant not making that exception (personal opinion).


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

As a CT/MRI tech I would have no problem with a dog that has failed a one view x-ray and has a normal CT scan.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

A CT scan cannot clear the elbows especially on a ED I. It may make the owner feel good after spending the moneys for it and not showing anything and those are the exact words from a very respected orthopedic vet in my area. Bottom line the science behind the elbows is not here yet. Orthopedic vets contradict each other continuously when it comes to ED I.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Here are my musings on the subject. Some of these ideas are things that very well known, long time breeders have said. Others are just my thoughts.

I find it interesting that you picked elbows as the exception example, because it's the one clearance that absolutely no one can seem to agree on. What, exactly, is a Grade 1 elbow? No one really knows, although the formal International Elbow Working Group (not OFA) defines it as, "1 = Mild arthrosis (Presence of osteophytes 2 mm, sclerosis of the base of the coronoid processes – trabecular pattern still visible."
If it's unilateral, was it caused by overuse/injury as a puppy, or genetic? Is it just the way the dog's elbows were genetically formed, with no degeneration over time? 

"Elbow dysplasia is a painful, inherited condition that is far more challenging for vets, owners and dogs to deal with than hip dysplasia. Yet little progress has been made in reducing its prevalence since breeders started screening breeding stock through the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals about two decades ago (Hou, Wang, et al, 2013). The International Elbow Working Group (IEWG) has tacked this issue and in the summer of 2016, they issues new screening guidelines and protocols.
We can definitely improve on our present “elbow clearance,” since per a Michigan State University study, many dogs with normal elbows are diagnosed by the OFA with Grade 1 elbow dysplasia and many dogs that actually have Grade 1 dysplasia are rated by the OFA as normal. These errors causes breeders to lose faith in the clearance process, questioning the ratings their dogs get. It also means that we are removing some dogs from the breeding pool for no reason and we are breeding dogs that may pass elbow dysplasia on to their offspring (Kunst et al, 2014)." (Gayle Watkins).

also to consider, 
"Breeding combinations in several breeds were evaluated for the benefit of using elbow dysplasia screening in breeding stock to reduce ED rates. Improvement was shown in the four evaluated breeds, Golden Retrievers, German Shepherds, Labrador Retrievers and Saint Bernards. For Golden Retrievers, breeding two parents with Grade 0 elbows resulted in 80% of offspring having Grade 0, while breeding two parents with Grade 1 elbows, produced only 71% of offspring with Grade 0 elbows." (Gayle Watkins)

This means that parents with grade 0 elbows will produce 2 out of 10 puppies who don't pass elbow clearances. If BOTH parents have grade 1 elbows, 3 out of 10. How much difference is that? 
What if one parent has grade 1? Unilateral versus bilateral? How much, if at all, does the statistic change? We could probably intuit that it would mean 2.5 puppies instead of 3? The puppies who don't pass...are they grade 1, asymptomatic, meaning it's possible it's just a genetic formation of the elbow joint itself? Unilateral? Bilateral?

Very few people who don't have performance dogs and especially breeding stock do elbow clearances. Perhaps there are tons of dogs walking around with Grade 1 elbows, and it really is meaningless. 

If a dog has a unilateral grade 1 elbow, but all siblings (who have been tested) are grade 0, and both parents are grade 0, would you make an exception? What if that dog has 24 full siblings but only a couple have been tested, 1 has bilateral grade 1 and the others are clear? Now what do you do?

In my opinion, quite a few of these dogs who are having elbow clearances done are field/agility dogs. If these dogs are 5, 6, 7 years old, extremely active, with no symptoms at all but grade 1 elbows, I'd consider it normal elbows and would be comfortable making an exception. A show dog who isn't especially active in performance or companion sports, I'd put more weight into the finding despite the absence of symptoms.

Any dog who is grade 1 with symptoms, especially at a young age, I'd be more inclined to not make an exception.

Then there's the problem of our limited gene pool. A well known dog who has been bred a fair amount (not excessively) was just diagnosed with pigmentary uveitis at the age of 6 or 7. If we've removed all the dogs with "questionable" grade 1 elbows from our breeding pool, are we left only with dogs who pass all clearances but then are diagnosed with PU? Or die of HSA, lymphoma, at age 6-10? So now we've removed dogs who may or may not have an elbow problem, may or may not pass it on, and left the dogs who are unfortunately (and certainly unknowingly) potentially passing on dire genetic problems.

I don't know if anyone can make any sense of these mutterings...

Using Tito as an example. His mother never had elbow clearances done. She was still mobile and active at almost age 16 when she was finally put down. Her breeder offered to do the clearances when she (his mother) was 13 years old, but the vet advised her not to because he said not many 13 year olds would pass. So regardless of whether or not she initially would have passed, in my mind, she had fine elbows. 
Tito's elbows passed. His siblings who were tested passed. His father passed. He (Tito) has produced, out of about 125 puppies on the ground, 1 grade 1 unilateral fail, and 1 grade 1 bilateral fail THAT WE KNOW OF. But neither was/is symptomatic, despite being extremely active in field, dock diving, agility, and more. None of the untested puppies show symptoms of ED.
Here's his vertical pedigree results for elbows from OFA:
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1372051

I, personally, would be totally comfortable making an exception and breeding either of the two offspring that didn't pass elbows, especially the one with the unilateral fail.

Here's a link to the International Working Elbow Group: 
http://www.vet-iewg.org/

Whew. I'm done. Clear as mud?


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> A CT scan cannot clear the elbows especially on a ED I. It may make the owner feel good after spending the moneys for it and not showing anything and those are the exact words from a very respected orthopedic vet in my area. Bottom line the science behind the elbows is not here yet. Orthopedic vets contradict each other continuously when it comes to ED I.


And yet elbows are cleared on single view lateral x-ray.
Perhaps I should clarify.
A grade I non symptomatic unilateral elbow with a normal CT scan would be no problem for me.
I would not consider grade II or greater. 

What do people think about cardiac clearances, should they be echo?


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

This is such a fascinating topic. I would also love to hear what y'all think about other exceptions, like heart clearances and inbreeding. By inbreeding I mean siblings, half-siblings, parent/offspring, etc.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I think cardiac is okay by a cardiologist because the incidence of SAS is so low in Goldens. 
Also I suspect many dogs (including Tito) were cleared by a cardiologist and then again later by echo, too, but people like me might be too lazy to send it in since he already has a cardiac clearance listed on OFA.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Cardiac - I am old. I have been around so long in Goldens that I remember a time when, if a dog had an echo, we assumed he had some 'issue' requiring an echo ... it was a suspicious thing back then.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

hollyk said:


> And yet elbows are cleared on single view lateral x-ray.
> Perhaps I should clarify.
> A grade I non symptomatic unilateral elbow with a normal CT scan would be no problem for me.
> I would not consider grade II or greater.
> ...


As per orthopedic vet a CT scan cannot clear a ED I. There is no such thing as a normal CT scan because of course it would be normal! There is nothing to see. It is a waste of time and money. ECHO is indeed an advanced cardiac clearance. A CT scan is NOT an advanced elbow clearance and OFA/BVA concurs. And to my knowledge IEWG has not changed the protocol either.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

hotel4dogs;7742140
Here's a link to the International Working Elbow Group:
[url said:


> http://www.vet-iewg.org/[/url]
> 
> Whew. I'm done. Clear as mud?


Actually very clear to me! 
Thanks for the link to IEWG, I had forgotten they had proceedings to read so I have the last two years worth to study up on.

It appears that while they recommend two views instead of one, the type ED in Goldens most of the time (FCP) the numbers don't add up to too much difference in the accuracy (with FCP - some of the others are much different w CT compared to radiographs). I'm in 2017 proceedings.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

But the CT scan is clearing whatever bone abnormality that is seen on that single lateral x-ray. Neither CT or X-ray can evaluate soft tissue. 
Looking forward to reading thru Barb’s link.
For Me I would consider bringing home puppy from a unilateral symptomatic grade 1 elbow read as normal on CT.
Someone else may choose otherwise.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

My vet is/was adamant that OFA should accept CT scans for elbows and tried to make her case for years with them that the CT was more accurate than the x-ray and some dogs were getting Grade 1s when they were in fact normal so my own viewpoint is that the CT is acceptable if it shows that a dog is clear. A very close breeder friend of mine bred a bitch with a grade 1. She lived well into her teens and never limped a day in her life and neither did her puppies and the ones that were tested all cleared. Anecdotally, I know of many others with the same results. I've also seen the opposite in OFA--a sire with a DJD I and then offspring with that also got a Grade 1--I would be interested to find out if they ever did a CT and what that showed. To me, Grade 1, particularly unilateral is still a bit of a gray area. Bilateral becomes more suspicious that it's genetic. I certainly believe that there's a genetic component when you look at their published statistics, I just worry that OFA doesn't always diagnose it correctly since so many clear on CT. How many have called for OFA results on hips and gotten the full gamut of ratings? I think OFA does a lot of good and I absolutely believe in clearances but certainly far from a perfect system. I'd hate to throw the baby out with the bath water over a grade 1 unilateral, particularly if a CT showed normal.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think that if people have dogs whose elbows fail but clear by CT - they still need to post the failed results on OFA. 

If they do that for several generations, I believe it would begin to show patterns if any exist. 

And GRCA could/should create a second option or single authority (like an OFA) for checking the CT results or verifying those results. 

Those breeders who are the most vocal about CT scan stuff are pretty big names in the breed and established enough that they themselves should be more active in setting up a single authority who is reviewing these cases on a consistent basis. 

The thing that makes me uncomfortable about the CT scan stuff is the fact that you have certain breeders who have multiple cases of going the CT scan route to clear bad elbows. 

This when you have other breeders out there who knock on wood do not have much problems with bad elbows, or if they do it's rare or insignificant compared to all the other dogs that cycle through their breeding program. 

You literally have breeders more concerned about temperament (which is a foggy gray area depending on what somebody regards as "aggression" or inappropriate energy levels) and pigment and tail sets and kinks in the tails and ear sets and so on.... more than they are worried about elbows. 

Stay in the performance area and you have breeders out there who do not have to be so vocal about CT scans and elbow dysplasia because they do not have the problems in what they breed.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

The ones I know of have the OFA failure and clear CT in k9data. OFA won't record a CT so there's no help record keeping with OFA.

I think a push needs to be GRCA pushing OFA to consider CTs. One or two vets/breeders, no matter how well respected, won't result in the change. To me, the CT gives more information. elbow xray:CT scan like auscultation only:echo. Most won't just do a CT because the dog requires sedation and they're way more expensive so it's hard to ever actually double check the ratings unless it's a failure that clears on CT. 

The breeder I cited that bred "bad" elbows and got "bad" elbows is in fact on the performance side of things  The one that failed and bred with great results is on both sides of things--breeding MACH and FCs and also CHs and GCHs. I also looked at a line breeding yesterday on a popular sire who failed elbows on the first submission (and maybe even 2nd??) since the dates of hips and elbows are over a year apart. Both the maternal and paternal grandfather of this dog's sire being used are this popular stud dog so the COI is about 20%. The offspring of this line breeding failed with OFA twice-bilateral grade 1 each time....so I'm not going to try to argue that there's not a genetic component. I just think we need to accept another test to try to determine if the diagnosis of DJD1, etc is actually correct. I would be curious if anyone knows of dogs with higher (worse) elbow ratings that cleared by CT.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Christen113 said:


> I think a push needs to be GRCA pushing OFA to consider CTs. One or two vets/breeders, no matter how well respected, won't result in the change. To me, the CT gives more information. elbow xray:CT scan like auscultation only:echo. Most won't just do a CT because the dog requires sedation and they're way more expensive so it's hard to ever actually double check the ratings unless it's a failure that clears on CT.


I think my basic feeling on CT scans in general (if they do what I mentioned above and have a standard place like OFA that's reviewing the scans) is it should be like what I feel echos should be. 

1. Breeders who have had issues in what they breed SHOULD be going the extra step and getting echos done on what they breed OR requiring echoes on studs they use. Or both.

2. Breeders who have a dog who is not symptomatic for elbow dysplasia and the xrays were inconclusive, SHOULD get CT scans done prior to breeding the dogs. 

3. I do not think that the standard clearances should be these higher level checks for dogs across the board. Most dogs are fine being cleared by auscultation and OFA xrays. 






> The breeder I cited that bred "bad" elbows and got "bad" elbows is in fact on the performance side of things...


Not surprised.

The 3-4 breeders I know of who are the most vocal about CT scans are performance breeders. 

Sometimes this is because their dogs are more likely to have injuries. 

Sometimes it's because there is something going on with the lines. Weak elbows.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Should the box that allows failing hips and/or elbows not reported be removed from the OFA form?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

hollyk said:


> Should the box that allows failing hips and/or elbows not reported be removed from the OFA form?


I think the only impact this would have = people balking about submitting xrays. 

I'm only upset about people not checking off that box when they intend to breed the dogs anyway OR if there's the slightest possibility of them breeding the dogs anyway.


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## Tesoro (Jan 4, 2019)

*Exceptions to OFA - elbows*

This information is for discussion purposes only. As tempting as it is, please don't flame me for contributing to this discussion.
A longtime and very well respected breeder once commented to me that our Code of Ethics does not demand, but encourages, ethical breeders to only breed dogs with passing OFA certifications.
Why would a breeder breed a dog without OFA normal elbows?
A breeder may decide to breed a dog that the OFA has determined to have Grade 1 elbows if the breeder has evidence, e.g. CT, that the dog has normal elbows. The OFA doesn't always get it right:

OFA grades 0-3, 0 is normal

In 2014, Kunst et al published a paper in which they "investigated the incidence of elbow dysplasia and progression of osteoarthritis in elbows with grades 0 and 1 in 46 elbows screened at least 1 year previously, using CT as a gold standard and with the addition of CT absorptiometry. The incidence of dysplasia based on CT was 62% in grade 0, and 75% in grade 1 elbows, all of which had medial coronoid disease. The sensitivity and specificity of the OFA grade for elbow dysplasia compared to CT findings was 75% and 38%, respectively. Results of our study suggest that the "anconeal bump" used for elbow screening by the OFA is a relatively insensitive characteristic, and support the use of CT for identifying additional characteristics of elbow dysplasia."

Personally, I feel that we need a better assay for elbows. We should use CT or at a minimum 3 view radiographs to verify normal elbow structure. At the very least, people who verify normal elbows by CT scans should be able to petition OFA to get a normal elbow certification.

Oops! breedings do happen. In that case, I would think an ethical breeder would still warrant the elbows on all puppies.

If anyone knows of a scientific study that verifies that OFA screening of elbows in golden retrievers has decreased the incidence of elbow dyplasia in the breed, I would love to read it!! Thanks in advance.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Personally, I feel that we need a better assay for elbows. We should use CT or at a minimum 3 view radiographs to verify normal elbow structure. At the very least, people who verify normal elbows by CT scans should be able to petition OFA to get a normal elbow certification.


CT scans (just elbows) = $1200
OFA rads (hips and elbows) = $200

Somebody whose dogs elbows are beautiful and clean have NO REASON to spend a whole grand more on CT scans when they know their dog's elbows will clear with OFA. 

Somebody who does radiographs for OFA on a dog and see the pretty typical fuzz in and around the elbow and knows that will cause problems - they would absolutely be motivated to spend the extra grand in getting a second opinion and dx via CT scan. 

Somebody who generation after generation or every other generation has FAILED elbows in their pick dogs and goes the CT scan route... at some point they need to stop and think about why they have to jump hoops to clear what they breed when other people don't have the same problems. It may indicate there is a big problem in their lines.


^^^^ This is the reason why you are not going to get people like me to budge when it comes to pushing for CT scans to become a "gold standard" for clearing elbows. Not when you have been around enough breeders who regularly get hips/elbows cleared with very few disappointments. 

Again, people who have dogs FAILING elbow clearances regularly in their lines should absolutely use CT scans and work from there. 

Additionally, GRCA and the group of influential breeders pushing for CT scans to be a standard and accepted clearance for elbows _should _work on getting a second standard option separate from OFA that WILL accept CT scans and will verify them for breeders.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

hollyk said:


> Should the box that allows failing hips and/or elbows not reported be removed from the OFA form?


Well, when there are no elbow numbers and there are hip numbers, we know elbows failed.

I am at this point curious (since I have no examples of my own) and wonder, can someone email me a CT that would be 'passing' or 'cleared' so I can see what it is people are using as CT cleared? I really appreciate it. I won't publish it anywhere, just at this point dk what constitutes 'clear' and who is the judge of that- since there is no where to 'list ' such a clearance...so I would like to see what's called 'clear'.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Tesoro said:


> Oops! breedings do happen. In that case, I would think an ethical breeder would still warrant the elbows on all puppies.
> 
> If anyone knows of a scientific study that verifies that OFA screening of elbows in golden retrievers has decreased the incidence of elbow dyplasia in the breed, I would love to read it!! Thanks in advance.


So, that was a piece of my original query- who pays if the elbows don't pass in offspring? 
IF a breeder bred an exception (and I would like to know what makes an exception in minds and no one has hit on that really) should that breeder warrant elbows? I have a call in for 10 days now to OFA to inquire as to the numbers. Will post when I get them.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Megora said:


> Somebody who generation after generation or every other generation has FAILED elbows in their pick dogs and goes the CT scan route... at some point they need to stop and think about why they have to jump hoops to clear what they breed when other people don't have the same problems. It may indicate there is a big problem in their lines.
> 
> 
> ^^^^ This is the reason why you are not going to get people like me to budge when it comes to pushing for CT scans to become a "gold standard" for clearing elbows. Not when you have been around enough breeders who regularly get hips/elbows cleared with very few disappointments.
> ...


My personal opinion is that CT isn't needed to be the gold standard-I've never had a failed elbow- and I am a person who had a promising bitch with OFA Exc hips and passing elbows turn up with CT diagnosed FCP. I did not breed her- I spayed and placed her. It's my personal ethic. I had clearances. I chose not to bite that apple. 
Verification is the piece for me. I'm sorry- I just don't believe it when I hear 'CT cleared' = or I believe it but it has no meaning to me. I would like to see what it is that comes as a 'clear' diagnosis. No one has offered to send me a CT report clearing a bitch or dog but I only asked a few minutes ago. I would have thought someone here availed themselves of this 'exception' and would have done on their own just for my own report I am making for B/E, but maybe someone will now I've asked.


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## Tesoro (Jan 4, 2019)

*Heritability of elbow dyplasia.*

Soo M et al, 2018. Heritabilities and genetic trends for elbow score as recorded by the New Zealand Veterinary Association Elbow Dysplasia Scheme (1992-2013) in four breeds of dog.

Other than having a less than ideal assay for elbows, another difficulty with breeding for normal elbows is the possibility of low heritability of elbow dysplasia in golden retrievers.

Heritability tells us how important genetics is to determining a particular trait from 0 (not at all) to 1 (100%).

The study above is looking at over 20 years of elbow data in New Zealand (they score each elbow separately).

They determined the heritability of "worst elbow score" in golden retrievers was 0.18 (standard error 0.07), so around 18%.

If we truly care about reducing ED in golden retrievers, this is just another reason to use CT scans (high definition x-ray technology) instead of a single view x-ray to determine whether our dogs have normal elbows.

I also think we should use echocardiograms after 2 years of age to get a heart clearance.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Prism Goldens said:


> My personal opinion is that CT isn't needed to be the gold standard-I've never had a failed elbow- and I am a person who had a promising bitch with OFA Exc hips and passing elbows turn up with CT diagnosed FCP. I did not breed her- I spayed and placed her. It's my personal ethic. I had clearances. I chose not to bite that apple.
> Verification is the piece for me. I'm sorry- I just don't believe it when I hear 'CT cleared' = or I believe it but it has no meaning to me. I would like to see what it is that comes as a 'clear' diagnosis. No one has offered to send me a CT report clearing a bitch or dog but I only asked a few minutes ago. I would have thought someone here availed themselves of this 'exception' and would have done on their own just for my own report I am making for B/E, but maybe someone will now I've asked.


Robin - I've seen it thanks to people on the facebook group sharing both the xrays and CT scans - and it basically was impossible to know what I was looking at. Whole different ball of wax from looking at standard xrays and comparing them to what I've seen passing or failing.


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## Tesoro (Jan 4, 2019)

"Somebody whose dogs elbows are beautiful and clean have NO REASON to spend a whole grand more on CT scans when they know their dog's elbows will clear with OFA. "

The problem is that OFA gets it wrong in both directions....62% of the OFA normal elbows were dysplastic by CT.

It's not about getting a normal OFA certification. It's about breeding normal elbows with the best assays we have available.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

That's why I would like to see what it is that these exception makers call a cleared CT- not the CT itself but the paper that comes with it. 
If it is a bunch of images we cannot discern ourselves, and doesn't come with words that clear the dog, it's not useful to a community that tends to be less than forthcoming...


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

I just sent you one via FB messenger that had been posted in the Golden Retriever Discussion Group publicly. Thankfully mine have both passed with normal elbows so I can't provide my own. What was provided was the radiologist's opinion. I've seen in another group where someone posted about their GSP as well--similar but they found OFA to be accurate. OFA provides statisticss and I have a chart saved but it doesn't distinguish between unilateral and bilateral and those that are on the CT side seem to firmly believe that there's a difference. OFA shows a 10% incidence of DJD in two normal parents and with one grade 1 to one normal a 25% chance. I'd just like to see a statistic that breaks it down between unilateral and bilateral. They show Grade 1 to Grade 1 results in 41% with DJD...so it's compelling that it's genetic without a doubt.


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## Goldruls (Mar 1, 2011)

Prism Goldens said:


> So, that was a piece of my original query- who pays if the elbows don't pass in offspring?
> IF a breeder bred an exception (and I would like to know what makes an exception in minds and no one has hit on that really) should that breeder warrant elbows? I have a call in for 10 days now to OFA to inquire as to the numbers. Will post when I get them.


I have bred a bitch with unilateral Grade1 ED. This bitch ran full speed into a post in my back yard when she was 4 months old and clipped her right front shoulder/leg. An immediate trip to the vet showed no fractures on x ray, but she limped off and on for 2 months post injury. (Bruising/soft tissue injury)? She went on to train in agility and finished her EX title (full height - 20 in) without one day of lameness. Final rads came back Good hips/normal (L) elbow, Grade 1 DJD (R) elbow. A bone spur had formed on the back of her right elbow. Knowing my pedigrees and having no incident of ED I bred her to dogs that had at least 3 generations of elbow clearances behind them. None of her puppies have had any symptoms of any type of lameness and I was very upfront with all of my puppy buyers about the one elbow failing along with documentation from my vet concerning the injury at 4 mos. of age. I based my decision on the history of clearances in my pedigrees along with actually witnessing her accident, not to mention her soundness training and running agility.

Margie Sarkin


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

thanks Cristen113... so- on that report, would that (to you) be acceptable? 
Because the doc doing it isn't a radiologist, he's a surgeon. He's got an interest in ortho but he's not boarded.

That's the part to me that I am intrigued with, if we are to make exception for CT, shouldn't a CT be done/evaluated by a radiologist, not a vet surgeon or a vet ER or any other vet?
I believe OFA uses only ortho specialists to do the evals and ratings. That has to be better than a surgeon (for instance) looking @ a CT, right? I'm not arguing for or against- I really want to know the things originally asked- and elbows make a good subject - what is WORTH an exception? How long should a breeder be breeding before they start making exceptions (if ever)? Is a mentor who suggests an exception a good mentor or a bad one for the breed? And how 'special' a pedigree, or how much money does one have to invest, to make an exception one that most good breeders would be okay with if hearing about it?
Plus- who should pay for the elbows if the offspring are symptomatic?
Margie's exception to me is a valid one- I was actually on the phone w her the day her bitch slammed her elbow, she threw some expletives out and we both expected it would be a problem.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

If the CT is normal is it an exception? 
CT needs to be read by a radiologist. 
Interesting thought provoking subject.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

When I looked that vet up it said he was a board certified radiologist, so yes, I think he is qualified to read a CT scan. My husband works in CT and you get a much more thorough and complete view on a CT than you do on an X-ray and my vet (that prior to retirement everyone traveled to for OFA and any kind of sport injury, breeding and the like, particularly in labs and goldens and had 39 years of experience in breeding and as a DVM) has argued the position for years to OFA that it’s a huge mistake not to accept CT scans for elbows-so to me, yes a clear CT signifies in my mind that upon a more thorough investigation, yes, they have normal elbows. I can say that I wouldn’t seek out a stud dog with a G1 elbow. I also don’t think that OFA always makes a correct evaluation when I see what some people have posted of “fair” hips, etc. so I would likely consider long and hard if ever faced with a G1 elbow in a bitch. Someone down here had a G2 elbow prelim and Dr. Keller said he thought it would pass so that just tells me that the elbow xrays are still very, very subjective. A friend of mine had two normal elbow clearances on her dog and both ended up with DJD bad enough to require surgery. I consider an elbow clearance very valuable information but I’m not convinced that an X-ray is the gold standard over a CT. I’m also not aware of any breeders here who routinely fail elbows and get it cleared by CT. I’d be interested to hear opinions of experts-radiologists, orthopedic surgeons, etc. as to what they believe.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

I guess a lot of this can get into gray areas. Do you breed your bitch if one littermate failed elbows? 2 littermates? Technically you still have a normal elbow clearance on your bitch. If you discover a parent of your clear bitch has a lot of bad elbows popping up do you stop breeding your bitch knowing that bad elbows could start popping up? I guess I just think it’s dangerous to get very black and white on things that are fairly subjective when there might be a lot of other factors that might make it a less than ideal breeding despite the checking of boxes...or there could be factors (like a CT and 3 generations of good elbows) that make it a more calculated risk.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Been reading more on this topic and this is interesting from the International Elbow Working Group that apparently governs OFA:
Although the IEWG screening doesn't use CT, they certainly see the value of CT evaluating elbows. This is from their 2015 proceedings: "Its ability of interpreting the images in different
reconstructive views and planes allows CT to be superior to conventional radiography because there is no distraction of superimposed images. Lesions involved in elbow joint diseases such as displaced mineralized fragments of the medial coronoid process, signs of radioulnar incongruence (RUI), and the
presence of subtrochlear notch sclerosis are easy to detect using CT."


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

And additionally, it appears that there is still discussion about appeals by CT: 

https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?id=7054607&pid=12886&

More information: 
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/vru.12171

http://www.vet-iewg.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/IEWG-proceedings2016.pdf

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e057/7596b40892815b84139c8335b557fd895af4.pdf

So yes, after doing even more reading on the topic, I would breed a bitch with a grade 1 cleared by CT assuming there was also no history of lameness. It seems that neither radiography nor CT is 100% perfect but I do still believe after doing a bit more research that the CT is a better indicator of DJD.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Christen113 said:


> When I looked that vet up it said he was a board certified radiologist,


that's interesting, I read his CV and it said he was a BoardCert Surgeon, with an interest in orthopedics.

It'd be extremely time consuming to be boarded in two specialties, while you could get out of a second internship if you did the original one you can't do two residencies at the same time unless they are already bound such as Emergency and Critical Care. So that'd be 4 years undergrad, 4 years vet school, one year internship, 3 years residency and then another 3 years residency in second specialty. I am in awe if he is a boarded radiologist along w a surgeon. It doesn't really matter but it did bring up what I was wondering about, if a non-radiologist does the CT, and reads it, should that be an acceptable clearance?


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Prism Goldens said:


> So, that was a piece of my original query- who pays if the elbows don't pass in offspring?
> IF a breeder bred an exception (and I would like to know what makes an exception in minds and no one has hit on that really) should that breeder warrant elbows? I have a call in for 10 days now to OFA to inquire as to the numbers. Will post when I get them.


Elbows are part of an equation. If the dog is proven, the dog works in the field and does a regular training day with long distances on swimming and running and no clinical signs I would not hesitate to breed considering that the pairing was taking into consideration strengthening the elbows. As far as warranty, I personally think the breeder should warrant the elbows to 28 months with distinction between OFA non passing elbows and clinical signs with orthopedic vet letter.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Christen113 said:


> Been reading more on this topic and this is interesting from the International Elbow Working Group that apparently governs OFA:
> Although the IEWG screening doesn't use CT, they certainly see the value of CT evaluating elbows. This is from their 2015 proceedings: "Its ability of interpreting the images in different
> reconstructive views and planes allows CT to be superior to conventional radiography because there is no distraction of superimposed images. Lesions involved in elbow joint diseases such as displaced mineralized fragments of the medial coronoid process, signs of radioulnar incongruence (RUI), and the
> presence of subtrochlear notch sclerosis are easy to detect using CT."


The CT would not catch an ED1. As my orthopedic vet stated it will always clear it because a CT will only show advanced DJD.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Prism Goldens said:


> that's interesting, I read his CV and it said he was a BoardCert Surgeon, with an interest in orthopedics.
> 
> It'd be extremely time consuming to be boarded in two specialties, while you could get out of a second internship if you did the original one you can't do two residencies at the same time unless they are already bound such as Emergency and Critical Care. So that'd be 4 years undergrad, 4 years vet school, one year internship, 3 years residency and then another 3 years residency in second specialty. I am in awe if he is a boarded radiologist along w a surgeon. It doesn't really matter but it did bring up what I was wondering about, if a non-radiologist does the CT, and reads it, should that be an acceptable clearance?



Where did you see that? This is what I found on him when I looked--but maybe it's not the right doctor? But it's an awfully rare name:

https://www.vetradiologygroup.com/

James Schachtel, DVM, DACVR
James Schachtel lives in Colorado and has been a veterinarian for 15 years.

He worked as a general practitioner for the first 10 years of his career before completing a residency in Radiology and becoming boarded by the American College of Veterinary Radiologists. 

It is this foundation of practical experience along with the more current Residency training that underpins every report Dr. Schachtel returns and ultimately provides the clinician with 'usable' information.

​

Education
Veterinary School - 

Royal Veterinary College

Residency -

University of Missouri


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Claudia M said:


> The CT would not catch an ED1. As my orthopedic vet stated it will always clear it because a CT will only show advanced DJD.




The study I posted above is specifically about CTs catching Grade 1...and overall generally matching the OFA rating.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Christen113 said:


> Where did you see that? This is what I found on him when I looked--but maybe it's not the right doctor? But it's an awfully rare name:
> 
> https://www.vetradiologygroup.com/
> 
> ...


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Prism Goldens said:


> Christen113 said:
> 
> 
> > Where did you see that? This is what I found on him when I looked--but maybe it's not the right doctor? But it's an awfully rare name:
> ...


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Christen113 said:


> Prism Goldens said:
> 
> 
> > insane jumping as a puppy--off my high bed, onto a slick wood floor, flying over baby gates like it was nothing, leaping on furniture and then leaping off almost immediately because she knew she was breaking the rules, leaping over dogs/anything/everything. She cleared with normal elbows and hips but it did leave me thinking "how valid is the injury excuse?" if this girl could clear elbows. I could have relatively confidently said that if she had a grade 1 unilateral that it was injury/accident related.
> ...


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Prism Goldens said:


> Christen113 said:
> 
> 
> > That's the thing- your girl - crazy girl, reportedly- normal crazy behavior. Margie's girl- she seriously slammed herself and went to the vet for it. And WAS injured, limped, etc.
> ...


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Christen113 said:


> We could gather a lot more information ourselves if people quit checking the "do not disclose" box.


That and sending the forms in even if you don’t think it will pass and/or if it’s “just a pet”


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

From a radiologist I work with on the subject of CT’s ability to pick up DJD. 
“We easily see very early osteophyte formation on CT. And actually with plain films (x-rays) we do a pretty decent job of picking up early osteophyte formation”. 
This may speak to why you would want a Board Certified Radiologist reading your CT.

Yes, you can deduct from a missing elbow clearance when the hip clearance is there but I think it is added valuable information to know if the grade 1, 2, or 3. I guess I assume that the elbow grade was at least a 2 if it isn’t listed but this may not be the case.
But much better a missing elbow or hip clearance then no clearances at all. 

We are lucky here, just a bit of a drive away, there is a clinic that does an excellent jobs with OFA x-rays.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

hollyk said:


> From a radiologist I work with on the subject of CT’s ability to pick up DJD.
> “We easily see very early osteophyte formation on CT. And actually with plain films (x-rays) we do a pretty decent job of picking up early osteophyte formation”.
> This may speak to why you would want a Board Certified Radiologist reading your CT.
> 
> ...


the problem is, no one checks the box that allows fails to publish. So deduction is the only real tool to use. 
So- I'll change the question a bit- elbows- if we hear a CT cleared an animal, how do we prove that's so since OFA won't list?


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

A copy of the official CT report should be offered.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

hollyk said:


> Yes, you can deduct from a missing elbow clearance when the hip clearance is there but I think it is added valuable information to know if the grade 1, 2, or 3. I guess I assume that the elbow grade was at least a 2 if it isn’t listed but this may not be the case.
> But much better a missing elbow or hip clearance then no clearances at all.





Prism Goldens said:


> the problem is, no one checks the box that allows fails to publish. So deduction is the only real tool to use.



So here's what I just discovered. I never saw the box on the form - I'm sure I must have signed something, but I think the vet doing the x-rays filled out everything else for the hips and elbows. And she clearly didn't check the box or ask me if I wanted it checked. As anyone who followed Barb's links to Tito can see, Shala is one of his offspring whose elbows are missing. I just called OFA yesterday to see if there was anyway to retroactively "check the box" to release the info, since I have always thought it would be way better to be able to see whether a dog has grade 1,2, or 3, as opposed to just a fail. It's actually been a LONG time frustration of mine, as it makes a huge difference, and I didn't want people assuming Shala had grade 3. But *I had no idea the option to show the results even existed until I read it here. My guess is many other owners don't see the box either. *That's not ideal. I wonder if it has to be made more clear on the forms (maybe it has become more clear since I had the x-rays done?). Anyway - turns out, there IS a form I can download from OFA and fill out and send in to release the info and have it posted. Only the dog's owner can change the report status. So I am going to do that. 

Shala has bilateral Grade 1 elbow dysplasia. Two little osteophytes, both almost exactly the same size (less than 2 mm), in exactly the same place on each elbow. Is that just how her elbows are made? Possibly. We'll never know. She has never had any symptoms, no pain, no affect on her gait. I had her x-rays done at 3 years old (I just wanted to know whether her hips were good or excellent, it never occurred to me that she would fail her elbows!), and she is 6 years old now. I am going to have them re-x-rayed next year just to see if there has been any change. I know it won't get better, but I am hoping they will look exactly the same four years on. 

I will just add - grade 1 is nothing like grade 3. You can have an entirely asymptomatic grade 1 dog, as I do, and the dog can live a totally normal, very active life. I have been proactive with her because she is very active and we do a few dog sports, and I wanted to prevent any onset of symptoms. I keep Shala slim and fit, she gets a monthly Cartrophen injection, and a daily Dasuquin and fish oil supplements (all prescribed by a Sports Medicine Vet Specialist we saw after the x-rays and who did a full evaluation of her). That specialist did tell me not to do agility with her (I never planned to) and to never do flyball (also, no interest). We were given a green light to do everything else, including playing ball, which she does almost daily, hunt training, tracking and dock diving. We do water treadmill in the colder months and she swims in the warmer months. 

She came from two fully cleared parents. Two cleared parents have a 12% rate of affected puppies. Almost exactly 12% of Tito and Abby's pups together have ED, both grade 1 (based on the ones who have been tested). Science is pretty accurate. 

My guess is that there are a LOT of Grade 1 ED dogs out there whose owners have no idea because they have never had symptoms and the owners have not had clearances done (my guess is that most people who are not breeding or competing with their dogs would not bother to have clearances done). So the ones we hear more about are the ones who _have_ symptoms, get x-rays and discover the dog has grade 2 or 3.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

thank you for sharing. Obviously, I have known for a long time, but didn't feel it was my place to post it here.
What is bolded, I think, is critical. It's one of the real issues with elbow clearances, how many dogs out there are walking around with Grade 1 elbows, and we'll just never know because they are asymptomatic ? So, back around in a full circle, does grade 1 matter, or not?
Dunno.




Sweet Girl said:


> So here's what I just discovered. I never saw the box on the form - I'm sure I must have signed something, but I think the vet doing the x-rays filled out everything else for the hips and elbows. And she clearly didn't check the box or ask me if I wanted it checked. As anyone who followed Barb's links to Tito can see, Shala is one of his offspring whose elbows are missing. I just called OFA yesterday to see if there was anyway to retroactively "check the box" to release the info, since I have always thought it would be way better to be able to see whether a dog has grade 1,2, or 3, as opposed to just a fail. It's actually been a LONG time frustration of mine, as it makes a huge difference, and I didn't want people assuming Shala had grade 3. But I had no idea the option to show the results even existed until I read it here. My guess is many other owners don't see the box either. That's not ideal. I wonder if it has to be made more clear on the forms (maybe it has become more clear since I had the x-rays done?). Anyway - turns out, there IS a form I can download from OFA and fill out and send in to release the info and have it posted. Only the dog's owner can change the report status. So I am going to do that.
> 
> Shala has bilateral Grade 1 elbow dysplasia. Two little osteophytes, both almost exactly the same size (less than 2 mm), in exactly the same place on each elbow. Is that just how her elbows are made? Possibly. We'll never know. She has never had any symptoms, no pain, no affect on her gait. I had her x-rays done at 3 years old (I just wanted to know whether her hips were good or excellent, it never occurred to me that she would fail her elbows!), and she is 6 years old now. I am going to have them re-x-rayed next year just to see if there has been any change. I know it won't get better, but I am hoping they will look exactly the same four years on.
> 
> ...


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## Jschachtel (Sep 2, 2019)

Hello
This is an excellent discussion. 
Earlier in this post Im pretty sure I was misquoted as having written papers on elbow dysplasia- I have not.
Nonetheless as a Boarded radiologist I’m very familiar with elbow dysplasia and read about 5 elbow CT’s a week. I read musculoskeletal Imaging as a preference 

Pertaining to the last post regarding Gr 1 elbow dysplasia and outcome, there is a wonderful paper on radiographically diagnosed Gr 1 elbows that were followed over a long period of time with CT (more sensitive for identifying degenerative joint disease). The study found that 1/5 Gr 1 elbows do not progress and that the lesion assessed on the anconeal process is possibly a normal variant

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/vru.12171

I hope this helps and good luck

J. Schachtel
DVM ACVR


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> The study found that 1/5 Gr 1 elbows do not progress and that the lesion assessed on the anconeal process is possibly a normal variant


Which means 4 out of 5 grade 1 ED DOES progress. That's a pretty high percentage considering all the people who are promoting breeding dogs with grade 1 ED.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

^^^ can I love that 100 times? There is no dog worth that kind breeding risk, no matter why, to me. 

But- I would love to know what Dr Schachtel (if he comes back, thank you for the visit!) thinks about my casual theory that elbows that don't pass OFA unilaterally are less 'robust' than a normal Golden's elbow must be, to be able to take potholes and exercise?


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

I have seen this paper before and I’m not sure it makes things clearer.

I believe that figure 5 in this paper is telling us that 62% of initial grade 0 elbows on recheck (1–5.6 years- mean 2.9 years) are dysplastic and 25% of elbows that were rated grade 1 dysplastic are normal. 
It also states in this paper:
“We compared canine elbows assigned OFA grades 0 and 1 to the presence of dysplasia as determined by CT, and found that the incidence of dysplasia is not significantly different between the two groups. Progressive osteoarthritis at recheck at least 1 year after initial evaluation was positively correlated with elbow dysplasia.”


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Jschachtel said:


> Hello
> This is an excellent discussion.
> Earlier in this post Im pretty sure I was misquoted as having written papers on elbow dysplasia- I have not.
> Nonetheless as a Boarded radiologist I’m very familiar with elbow dysplasia and read about 5 elbow CT’s a week. I read musculoskeletal Imaging as a preference
> ...



Thank you for sharing. I'm going to read this with great interest.


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## Tesoro (Jan 4, 2019)

Thank you for this post and this reference. 

In this study, I think the first sentence of the discussion of the results is why we are having this in depth discussion on this forum, 

"We compared canine elbows assigned OFA grades 0 and 1 to the presence of dysplasia as determined by CT, and found that the incidence of dysplasia is not significantly different between the two groups."

As a breeder of golden retrievers, I would only breed a dog or bitch with OFA Grade 1 elbows if I had CT evidence that the OFA was incorrect in their grading.

The more worrisome thing to me, is that OFA assigns Grade 0 to elbows that are in fact dysplastic when analyzed by CT.

My personal choice is to only breed dogs and bitches that have CT data verifying that they are free of joint disease at age 2. I will also only breed dogs and bitches that have normal echocardiograms at age 2. The extra expense is worth it to me.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I had one of those Excellent/Normal bitches- she got spayed and placed because her CT showed she (regardless of OFA's normal) had FCP. So I am with you. And honestly- I do not believe a normal elbow would be 100% normal if OFA called it dysplastic. Accident/injury? maybe that did happen, but what was wrong with the elbow of a sporting dog who couldn't tolerate a step into a gopher hole or a leap off a rock?


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

This part was interesting to me:

"Some studies have theorized that proliferation on the anconeal process may be a normal anatomic variant,17, 22, 23 which could lead to false positive diagnoses in mildly affected elbows. Additionally, dogs with elbows assigned a grade 1 are commonly never lame,12, 13 leading some breeders to question their disease status."

Because that is our situation, and I DO wonder if it is a normal anatomic variant, simply because it is almost exactly the same on both of Shala's elbows (the right is slightly bigger). Of course, we will never know, and there is no question over breeding, so in a way, it doesn't really matter for us. My priority is keeping her healthy and without symptoms for her entire life if I can. I am curious enough that I am going to re-x-ray next year (that will be 3 years after diagnosis) to see if there has been any change in the growths. I probably can't afford a CT just to see if there were any difference, so I wouldn't do it unless she started to have pain.


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