# Maybe some people should leave their dogs at home!



## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Sounds like the guy needs to work on his reactive dogs. Perferably one at a time. Actually it could be just one of the dogs starting the whole barking/lunging thing. I feel bad for his dogs as probably doesnt know how to correct this behavior so the dogs loose because of lack of education on the owners part.


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

I have a reactive dog, he barks but once he sniffs, he's all good. He's LOUD and being a GSD he is quite intimidating if you don't know him. Not aggressive but definitely scary sounding to someone who doesn't know any better.

A few things I want to comment on here;

1. Multiple dogs with a reactive dog in the mix is so not a good idea, he/she will just set off the other dogs and this could also become a learned behaviour for the non-reactive dogs.

2. Hard to manage 3 barking, lunging dogs (no matter their size) all at once, if you know you have a reactive dog(s) then being able to control/work with that ONE alone is key.

3. The fact that he had them on-lead, and "somewhat" under control (on lead) really does not mean that they shouldn't get to be at the campgrounds. I agree, it was silly (stupid?) to have all three together out and about but I definitely don't think saying that the dog(s) shouldn't be there is also kinda silly.

4. Having a reactive dog is hard work and very frustrating, and upsetting some times, being out in public with a dog when he/she is reacting is not only embarrassing but also overwhelming in some instances, maybe next time think if you were in his shoes? My dog comes from a good breeder, excellent temperament from the parents, sound nerves and has had an excellent, extremely socialized, extremely train filled life and yet is still reactive in certain situations with certain people.. I always ask the owners of reactive dogs what sets their dog off and if I can help in any way, like maybe walking by once again so they can use that extra pass by as a training opportunity, other times, I just smile and politely say beautiful dog and keep going if they look upset.

I view reactive dogs a little differently than I did before, Stark is my first reactive dog and let me tell you, we work on this every time we step foot out our door (we live in a highrise apartment). I don't know if this guy was actually working with his dog(s) or not, but if he was then I feel for him. Although, I do agree he should not of been walking all of the dogs together if he had a reactive dog(s) in the bunch.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I must say that I disagree with the idea of a reactive dog taken out in public.
I recently had my dog lunged at. I must say that I raised bloody hell. I will also say that I will defend my dog with every means at my disposal. I once saw my exhusband kick a dog into orbit, literally airborne, when some aggressive dog set upon our dog at the UCLA Sculpture Garden. My grandfather always said that protection is the premier responsibility of every owner, parent, husband, etc. I don't accept that I have to "deal with". Reactive dogs.
A lunging dog is a potentially dangerous dog. I'm not willing to depend on its owner's ability to physically restrain him. I don't want to wait and see what he will do, what progress he has made.
Train him fully, then take him in public. If he lunges at my dog, there will be bloody hell to be paid.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Train him fully, then take him in public.


The only way to train a dog with social issues is taking him out in public and training him.

The problem with the person you had a bad experience with was the fact he was NOT training his dog. He was taking his dog out in public on the busiest day of the week and had no control on him. That dog was not attacking everything in sight because of his breed. He was attacking everything in sight likely because he had grown to maturity without any training or constant socialization. There are certain breeds out there, not just pits, who need to have a strong and experienced owner who trains and works with them from day one and is constantly on the ball in controlling their dogs. This because with those breeds, it is written in their genes to be reactive and dominant.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

We will agree to disagree on this. 
A reactive dog that is lunging at dogs is dangerous and should not be allowed in places where he can cause damage. This is my opinion, but it comes from three incidents - my Heinz 57 many years ago, my border collie Cassie, and now Max.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Lilliam said:


> A reactive dog that is lunging at dogs is dangerous and should not be allowed in places where he can cause damage.


No - I totally agree with this. 

That guy should not have had his dog at the petstore on a busy day when there was too much going on for his dog to handle, especially since he couldn't control his dog. 

If you have a reactive dog, you still need to go to dog classes and get that dog out in public. The difference is you control how much exposure your dog gets.

FWIW - the most dangerous reactive dogs I had to deal with were a lab/shepherd/husky muttsky who jumped his fence to get at my Jacks. And my sister's collie was attacked by a black lab who came running out and tried ripping into the collie's neck. The lab already attacked a chihuahua - to the point that the little dog's intestines were spilling out. 

Both dogs were kept at home all zeh time and never socialized or trained in public.

Other than that, I also wanted to mention that we've been exposed to a variety of breeds at dog class, including dogs that are known to be protective of their owners and reactive. The one issue I ever had was with a male golden retriever who lunged growling and snarling at my guy every time we got too close to him. I imagine the dog got that way because of a combination of genes and lack of timely training when he was starting to show the signs of dog aggression. 

It's not just bully breeds who develop issues like this and could cause problems. Any untrained dog will develop glitches as he grows up.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

May years ago, while I was in puppy class with my silly boy Zeke, I met my first aggressive golden. I was heartbroken because I'd been pushing for a golden. This was waaaay back in the late 80s. I had to wait twenty years for my first golden because of the impression that dog left on my kids.


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

I think before this thread can carry on, we need to think about a few things.

One; *a reactive dog does not mean an aggressive dog.* A dog who barks or reacts, is not necessarily an aggressive dog. 

Example:

Stark is what I would consider reactive. He barks when he is unsure or nervous around someone. Does this mean he is going to bark and then jump up and attack someone? No way (well, unless you have a bite sleeve on - a little schutzhund humor there for you  ). He barks, then once he is able to sniff or say hello to that person, he is totally fine. Does the behaviour look aggressive? Sure it does. Is he aggressive? Not at all.

I am not saying that those three dogs in the OP's story are not aggressive, but I am also not going to say they were without meeting them. Could they of looked aggressive? Sure, of course they could of. 

Secondly; a dog who is reactive (this can be out of EXCITEMENT, fear, aggression, etc.) has the same rights as a dog who is not AS LONG AS he is under control by his handler.

The man in the OP's story DID have control over the three reactive dogs. He had them on a leash. The OP did not get bit, or even touched by the dogs so saying that this man did not have control over his dogs, is not accurate. 

The man was pretty stupid in having all three dogs together at once when he sounded like he knew about how his dogs would behave out in public, but he did have control.

Thirdly; how are dogs who are reactive suppose to be trained if they are not allowed to be around the thing that triggers them?

Let's take Stark for an example again. He reacts to people he is unsure of.

Stark is now at a point in his training/management where you would not even know he was reactive unless I told you. We have worked *gasp* out in public, around kids, strangers, malls, parking lots, schools, busy city streets, etc. for the past two years. I used the LAT game (Look At That) and marked and rewarded every single time he looked at a person, kid, elderly, stranger whether he was going to react or not. 

Stark has been enrolled in training classes (agility, obedience, rally-ready courses and of course Schutzhund - tracking, obedience, protection - ) since he was 10 weeks old. He just finished his last agility class about 4 months ago and has been in schutzhund for over a year now. He has never reacted in any of those situations (or at the vet) but has reacted out in public. So, if I couldn't bring him out in public, the problem would never of gotten fixed/managed. 

I always ensured I had control, watched his body movements, learned what his triggers were/are and tried a multitude of techniques to find the one that worked for him - all out in the middle of public.

Maybe because I have a reactive dog or maybe the fact that I own a different "type" of breed that I feel this way, but I don't see how banding dogs who are reactive (remember, not all reactive dogs are aggressive) to public areas is going to be solving the issue?


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

In this issue, I return to my statement that I do not want to be the person who's holding my young, nonreactive golden retriever in any location where there is even the potential to have an encounter with a reactive/aggressive dog. I don't want to be the person who has to yank on my dog because another dog is lunging at it. 
I have the right as a dog owner to protect my dog. Under the law, the dog doesn't have a right to lunge at another dog - it simply doesn't have that right under the law. Owners have a *requirement* to ensure public safety.
One last thing - a dog who has never been reactive can become reactive after being lunged at, depending on the severity of the altercation. As an owner, the well-being of my well behaved dog trumps any other dog owner's right to take a reactive out in public.

I can paint you a scenario where a reactive dog lunges, owner loses control of the leash, by standing dog fears an attack and doeS in fact attack. Why should the dog that did not cause the incident have to deal with a dog that is ill-behaved? My puppy has a phenomenal temperament, is intended for animal assisted therapy work. I will defend thaat dog's well being over and above any other dog owner's right to take an aggressive and/or reactive dog where it can cause the scenario I just described.

And my experience has been that many dog owners who have aggressive dogs will very often claim that their dogs are safe.


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

But your still grouping reactive dogs and aggressive dogs in the same category.

A reactive dogs does not mean an aggressive dog.


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

And I will mention that my reactive dogs visits our local nursing home regularly and interacts with the elderly and their families.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

elisabeth said:


> But your still grouping reactive dogs and aggressive dogs in the same category.
> 
> A reactive dogs does not mean an aggressive dog.


I'm lumping them together because at the point where a dog is lunging at mine I could not care less about the terminology. It is a dog aggressing against my dog, I can't explain that to my well behaved dog with the exemplary temperament. A lunging dog is a lunging dog. And I don't want it anywhere near my dog or my family.


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

Lilliam said:


> In this issue, I return to my statement that I do not want to be the person who's holding my young, nonreactive golden retriever in any location where there is even the potential to have an encounter with a reactive/aggressive dog.


I think you need to realize that there is a difference between a reactive dog (a dog reacting to a stimuli) and an aggressive dog (combative behaviour).

There is a dog in my building who will bark, growl and hackle when it sees another dog. It lunges on the leash and looks like it wants to eat the other dog, it is NOT aggressive. It becomes so overly stimulated by the sight of another dog that it only knows how to react in this manner. It is TOTALLY FINE with other dogs. Once the dog meets the other dog it is totally quiet, unless it gets ampt up again, then it's hackles go up and it starts barking and making these growly sounds. This is plainly out of excitement.



Lilliam said:


> I don't want to be the person who has to yank on my dog because another dog is lunging at it.


Then don't. Simply walk away and ignore the other dog. Take that opportunity to train/teach your dog how to ignore the other dog.

You are always going to run into reactive dogs, no matter where you are so your dog has to learn to live with them in the world.

My dog could care less that another dog is lunging and barking at him, he simply turns his body to the side and ignores the other dog. I marked this behaviour long ago to reinforce it. I took those opportunities (because they do happen) and made them into training situations.



Lilliam said:


> I have the right as a dog owner to protect my dog. Under the law, the dog doesn't have a right to lunge at another dog - it simply doesn't have that right under the law.


No one says you don't. I am not sure which law you are referring too (please post) but I am not aware of any laws that say that it is against the law for a dog to lunge at another dog? If a dog is contained by a leash and controlled by the owner then that dog has every right as your non-reactive dog unless it bites or touches you or your property (eg. dog).



Lilliam said:


> Owners have a *requirement* to ensure public safety.


By leashing the dogs, having them under voice control when off - leash, owners are ensuring public safety.

The man in the OP, was not breaking any laws. He had his dogs on leash and "under control", not saying having the three dogs out at the same time was smart, but he did not break any laws.



Lilliam said:


> One last thing - a dog who has never been reactive can become reactive after being lunged at, depending on the severity of the altercation. As an owner, the well-being of my well behaved dog trumps any other dog owner's right to take a reactive out in public.


I understand this, but again use that scenario as a training opportunity to support your dog's behaviour.

Your well behaved dog does not trump the other reactive dog when in public, if the reactive dog is on lead and under control of the owner.

Sorry, but it doesn't.



Lilliam said:


> I can paint you a scenario where a reactive dog lunges, owner loses control of the leash, by standing dog fears an attack and doeS in fact attack.


Any dog can attack - they are animals and they have teeth.

This is where what I said about ensuring control (leash, proper training collar or harness, voice control, e-collars, etc.) before going out into public.

I am about 140lbs, my dog is 88lbs of muscle. I use the proper training collar when necessary and ensure my dog is under voice control at all times. I have never had my dog pull me to the ground, or take the leash from my hand. If responsible owners of reactive OR aggressive dogs ensure they are properly contained before heading out to work amongst that dogs triggers than I see no problems.



Lilliam said:


> Why should the dog that did not cause the incident have to deal with a dog that is ill-behaved?


Because that is life.

Do you as a human deal with people who you don't want too? Same thing. You are always going to run into situations like this and need to properly prepare your dog (and yourself). Teach your dog how not to react or how to send calming signals (turn away from the other dog, show their backs/sides, look away) to the reactive dog.



Lilliam said:


> My puppy has a phenomenal temperament, is intended for animal assisted therapy work. I will defend thaat dog's well being over and above any other dog owner's right to take an aggressive and/or reactive dog where it can cause the scenario I just described.


My dog is reactive and yet visits nursing homes and has been to preschools for "show and tell" where he interacts with the elderly, their families and children/toddlers.

Please remember that not all reactive dogs are aggressive. 

I will defend my dog over any other dog as well - reactive or not. 



Lilliam said:


> And my experience has been that many dog owners who have aggressive dogs will very often claim that their dogs are safe.


Some do, I agree. I think this is out of embarrassment? Or maybe it is just lack of knowledge? Who knows what these people are thinking?

BUT - reactive dogs who are not aggressive in any way are safe. My boy doesn't bark at other dogs at all so it is a little different but he is totally safe. I trust him around kids, other people and of course other dogs. He may bark (react!) at a person but then he is totally fine. 

Reactive does not = aggressive.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I fully understand the difference between reactive and aggressive. I've been around dogs all my life. I've trained border collies to compete at national levels. My best friend had a schutzhund dog who would come into bed with me but who would not be allowed near my dogs because she was reactive. DOES MY DOG UNDERSTAND ALL THIS?!??!?! How do I explain to my dog the difference in those two terms? I don't care about the difference when my dog is put upon. If I have pepper spray and a dog is lunging at him and I spray it I run the risk of angering the lunging dog and having it really attack. If I dont' spray it I run the risk of it getting loose and having my dog react by attacking first. WHERE IN THIS SCENARIO IS IT WRITTEN THAT A LUNGING/AGGRESSIVE/REACTIVE/ILL-MANNERED DOG SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO THAT?!?!?!?

Here is the thing - I am talking about a dog lunging at my dog. You are using words such as "reactive" versus "aggressive." Here is my point - a dog lunging at my dog is a dangerous dog. I don't want it near mine. Dogs don't understand semantics. They understand a dog lunging at them is danger.

WHY IS MY DOG HAVING TO LEARN TO BE AROUND A MISBEHAVING AND POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS DOG?!?!?!?!!?!??!?!?! 

Frankly, I'm nearing Basque temper here because I am dead tired of bad behaviour being allowed and having good behaviour bend to those who clearly do not belong in the presence of other dogs or children. Whether it's people being aggressive towards people just because they happen to enter a wrong turn into a bad neighbourhood or a dog being set upon by a nasty dog, I'm no longer tolerant. I DON'T WANT TO BE THE EXPERIMENT FOR A NASTY DOG, I DON'T WANT MY DOG SET UPON BY A NASTY DOG. I don't even walk my dog down the street or go to dog parks because I'm dead tired of aggressive dogs mauling children and other dogs. And you need to see that to a dog the sight of a dog coming at it could set it off on an attack where it was never aggressive before.


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## alijeanrn (May 7, 2010)

I agree with Lilliam and the OP about these kinds of situations. I don't care if the dog is reactive/aggressive, call it whatever you want. It is scary to have a dog lunging at you. I don't know the dog or the owner so I don't know if it will bite. I don't know if the owner has control over it either. Also, the collar could break, the owner could accidentally drop the leash...then you and your dog may be getting mauled. We encounter may dogs on our walks that scare the hell out of me and their owners say "Oh he's friendly, he won't bite." One of these dogs is a golden retriever so I don't even care what breed it is. Bottom line, I don't care what anyone says about their dog, if it's coming at me and it scares me, my dog, or child, I just may pull out my dog pepper spray or kick it away, or hit it with a stick...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Frankly, I'm nearing Basque temper here because I am dead tired of bad behaviour being allowed and having good behaviour bend to those who clearly do not belong in the presence of other dogs or children.


The problem I immediately see here is that when you bring up this argument to business owners and states, their answer is banning ALL dogs from public places. Because any dog can be aggressive or scare somebody. Even your golden retriever could be seen as a threat by somebody who is terrified by dogs. 

People with small dogs might be threatened by your big golden being in the same aisle as them. Do they have the right to demand that you remove your dog on the basis that they feel threatened? 

And what about people who frequently use petstores and parks as ways to socialize and train their young dogs who will lunge when they see other dogs? My Jacks was one of those young goldens who would jump 5 feet in the air (only slight exageration) when he saw other dogs. I trained him not to do this by (guess what) taking him to places where there would be dogs. 

If somebody had sprayed my overexcited young golden in the face with pepperspray or attacked him, they would be dealing with consequences from me, including paying the vet bill for attacking my dog.

ETA - I'm not saying that people shouldn't be upset if their dog has been attacked. I'm mainlly arguing against broad generalizations, particularly when it comes to dogs in training.


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

Megora said:


> The problem I immediately see here is that when you bring up this argument to business owners and states, their answer is banning ALL dogs from public places. Because any dog can be aggressive or scare somebody. Even your golden retriever could be seen as a threat by somebody who is terrified by dogs.
> 
> People with small dogs might be threatened by your big golden being in the same aisle as them. Do they have the right to demand that you remove your dog on the basis that they feel threatened?
> 
> ...


Well put, I agree.


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

alijeanrn said:


> I agree with Lilliam and the OP about these kinds of situations. I don't care if the dog is reactive/aggressive, call it whatever you want. It is scary to have a dog lunging at you. I don't know the dog or the owner so I don't know if it will bite. I don't know if the owner has control over it either. Also, the collar could break, the owner could accidentally drop the leash...then you and your dog may be getting mauled. We encounter may dogs on our walks that scare the hell out of me and their owners say "Oh he's friendly, he won't bite." One of these dogs is a golden retriever so I don't even care what breed it is. *Bottom line, I don't care what anyone says about their dog, if it's coming at me and it scares me, my dog, or child, I just may pull out my dog pepper spray or kick it away, or hit it with a stick...*


Yes, but I think what we are saying here isn't if the dog is coming at you - in that case, I agree - defend your dog, child, whoever - these dogs were on a leash and were being controlled by the owner.

Lunging on a leash, or just barking is not the same thing as "a dog coming at you".


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## alijeanrn (May 7, 2010)

Megora said:


> The problem I immediately see here is that when you bring up this argument to business owners and states, their answer is banning ALL dogs from public places. Because any dog can be aggressive or scare somebody. Even your golden retriever could be seen as a threat by somebody who is terrified by dogs.
> 
> People with small dogs might be threatened by your big golden being in the same aisle as them. Do they have the right to demand that you remove your dog on the basis that they feel threatened?
> 
> ...


It's your word against theirs. If someone is that uncomfortable with your overexcited dog being near them, it is up to you to remove your dog. You can tell when people don't want to be bothered by a dog. I doubt you would win this battle in court.

Oops, part of my answer is in the quote. Don't know how to fix it.


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

Lilliam said:


> I fully understand the difference between reactive and aggressive. I've been around dogs all my life. I've trained border collies to compete at national levels. My best friend had a schutzhund dog who would come into bed with me but who would not be allowed near my dogs because she was reactive. DOES MY DOG UNDERSTAND ALL THIS?!??!?! How do I explain to my dog the difference in those two terms? I don't care about the difference when my dog is put upon. If I have pepper spray and a dog is lunging at him and I spray it I run the risk of angering the lunging dog and having it really attack. If I dont' spray it I run the risk of it getting loose and having my dog react by attacking first. WHERE IN THIS SCENARIO IS IT WRITTEN THAT A LUNGING/AGGRESSIVE/REACTIVE/ILL-MANNERED DOG SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO THAT?!?!?!?
> 
> Here is the thing - I am talking about a dog lunging at my dog. You are using words such as "reactive" versus "aggressive." Here is my point - a dog lunging at my dog is a dangerous dog. I don't want it near mine. Dogs don't understand semantics. They understand a dog lunging at them is danger.
> 
> ...


Maybe you do, maybe you don't. If you have been around dogs for that long, then you should have a very good read on dog body language and be able to determine if a dog is aggressive or just reactive, no?

Whether your dog understands the behaviour or not, they need to be able to deal with situations that present themselves - even other reacting dogs. And guess what - even aggressive dogs!

No one is saying to bring your dog over to the reactive dog or the aggressive dog, but what we are saying is that you are going to encounter them and so having your dog trained to the point where they are looking to you for a calm, "it's okay, let's move along" attitude is key - not banning the reactive dogs to no-man's land. Who is that helping?

Being a dog lover and owner I try to use every opportunity I can as a training/socializing opportunity - including scenarios like in the OP.

If you are getting this upset over a internet conversation/debate then I can't imagine what signals you are sending to your dogs while in a heated situation like an aggressive OR reactive dog.

As for your dog learning to be around a misbehaving dog - come on, life is not all cherries and roses.. things happen and our dogs have to deal with them. That is life. Sheltering your dog from experiences (including bad ones) is not healthy either. They WILL encounter bad things and need to be aware how to handle them.


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## alijeanrn (May 7, 2010)

elisabeth said:


> Yes, but I think what we are saying here isn't if the dog is coming at you - in that case, I agree - defend your dog, child, whoever - these dogs were on a leash and were being controlled by the owner.
> 
> Lunging on a leash, or just barking is not the same thing as "a dog coming at you".


 
I re-read the OP's post and it says the dogs were showing aggressive behavior and at one point it says they charged at her. It doesn't give details but I imagine the dogs were snarly and vicious looking to call them aggressive.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

elisabeth said:


> I think before this thread can carry on, we need to think about a few things.
> 
> One; *a reactive dog does not mean an aggressive dog.* A dog who barks or reacts, is not necessarily an aggressive dog.
> 
> ...


Clearly you are a very unique dog owner, with the knowledge and understanding it takes to handle a reactive dog. That usually can't be said of most owners that have reactive or aggressive dogs, most of them are clueless.

So I applaud you for being aware and doing the work you needed to, to help your dog.


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## alijeanrn (May 7, 2010)

mylissyk said:


> Clearly you are a very unique dog owner, with the knowledge and understanding it takes to handle a reactive dog. That usually can't be said of most owners that have reactive or aggressive dogs, most of them are clueless.
> 
> So I applaud you for being aware and doing the work you needed to, to help your dog.


 
Very well said. None of the posters on here are your average dog owner. They are all very responsible and knowledgeable.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

alijeanrn said:


> If someone is that uncomfortable with your overexcited dog being near them, it is up to you to remove your dog.


At the same time, the uncomfortable person could remove themselves from the situation just as easily. How is an owner supposed to correct the issue with their dog if the dog isn't allowed in public at all? They should be taking safety precautions, by all means, but the dog has to learn somewhere. If it doesn't, then what will the fate of the dog be?? Be sent to a shelter so that it can be euthanized for being overexcited?? Many dogs get overexcited. My dog does. The only difference is that instead of barking when he's overexcited, he humps or digs.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

elisabeth said:


> *Maybe you do, maybe you don't. If you have been around dogs for that long, then you should have a very good read on dog body language and be able to determine if a dog is aggressive or just reactive, no?*
> 
> Whether your dog understands the behaviour or not, they need to be able to deal with situations that present themselves - even other reacting dogs. And guess what - even aggressive dogs!
> 
> ...


 
I am at work and don't have the time to cut and paste my response so I've bolded what I want to address.

I am 55. I've had dogs since the day I was born, literally, so it's not an *if*, it's a fact. Attacks can happen in a split second, when your back is turned, when you're minding your own business at a store, or whle taking a walk in a garden or in a dog park. 

YES, YOU BET I AM UPSET. I had my dog mauled to within an inch of her life years ago, I just had my puppy lunged at by some beast who was being brought in for training. YOU BETTER BELIEVE THAT UPSETS ME!!!!!!!!!!! And I really resent your condescending tone, talking about cherries and roses. How DARE you talk to me as if I have to accept a nasty dog lunging at mine? Where is it written that I need to offer up my dog as a hot lunch to another dog because some owner believes that a dangerous dog has "a right" to being somewhere? That it anthromorphising to the extreme, and quite ridiculous. And don't you DARE make this personal against me. I DEFEND MY DOG. THAT IS MY JOB. AGAINST ILL MANNERED BEASTS THAT HAVE NO RIGHT BEING IN SOCIALISED SETTINGS.

*Just because my dog may encounter negative experiences doesn't mean that I'm willing to serve him up to be a test for a nasty dog.*


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

elisabeth said:


> I think before this thread can carry on, we need to think about a few things.
> 
> One; *a reactive dog does not mean an aggressive dog.* A dog who barks or reacts, is not necessarily an aggressive dog.


Totally agreed. Across the street from where I work, is a house that no one lives in, but there is a GSD mix that is tied to her dog box. (don't get me started, that belongs in a different thread). Anyway, when people, cars, etc walk or drive by, she barks ferociously, lunging at her chain. Well, this past winter, when I hadn't seen anyone there in 2 days (AC has been called, once again, belongs in another thread), I couldn't take it any longer and I knew I had to go feed her and break up her ice and give her fresh water. So I did. She barked ferociously, lunging, pulling, looked like any regular Cujo that was going to kill me. I got to her and she is the sweetest dog ever. She's REACTIVE, but far far far from aggressive.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I think we have a problem with the distinction between a reactive dog who gets a pass and an aggressive dog who doesn't. You could make the point that there is no difference, since in theory a reactive dog only does (insert what ever aggressive type display applies) when presented with a certain stimuli (another dog, a man, a garbage truck (insert stimuli), but an aggressive dog also needs a stimuli to aggress, since if there is no living being to go after there is no aggression. 

Is a reactive dog merely an aggressive dog that is under control? That would be the case if the dog has never had the opportunity to get to the stimuli how would you know if the dog was aggressive or reactive. In the OP, the poster gave two situations were the three dogs were to me, clearly aggressive. Yes the owner had them under some kind of control, but I don't think that would lead me to think they were reactive and not a problem. What would happen if a dog that was putting on that type of display, especially the growling and lunging, got free? It seems unlikely with all that forward momentum that they would just stay right by their owner and approaching another dog in an offensive/aggressive manner (growling and lunging) IS AGGRESSION.

I would make a distinction between offensive aggression and reactive aggression and I define aggression as the use of physical threat or attack to get your way. And I do have a lot of experience with it. I have a Bouvier who comes in to get groomed who is offensively aggressive to dogs and reactively aggressive to humans. If he see another dog (except his housemate) he tries to attack them to the extent of chasing the other dog down. We keep other dogs out of the shop when he is there. But with humans he only acts aggressively when he wants to stop something that a human is doing to him, clipping him or putting a muzzle on him for example. If I am not messing with him, he won't mess with me, but unfortunately I do have to mess with him.


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

Lilliam said:


> I am at work and don't have the time to cut and paste my response so I've bolded what I want to address.
> 
> I am 55. I've had dogs since the day I was born, literally, so it's not an *if*, it's a fact. Attacks can happen in a split second, when your back is turned, when you're minding your own business at a store, or whle taking a walk in a garden or in a dog park.
> 
> ...


No where did I try to use a condescending tone - I am trying to get my point across to you as you are. I am also not making this "against you" nor personal, I quoted and responded - isn't that what a forum is for? I have responded to many people on this thread, it is just that your posts are the ones that I disagree with and want to give my input as well.

Not trying to fight - it's a debate/discussion, all can be "talked about" without getting upset. 

If your 55, 30, 20, 109, it doesn't matter how long you have had dogs, it all depends on what you make of those experiences; both good and bad.

Maybe I see the world differently, and that's okay.

I am not talking about a dog who is aggressively going at your dog within a cm of your dog. I am talking about a dog, who is reacting within a few feet or even a foot from you, while on leash and controlled by it's owner. 

Of course if a dog is reacting and being aggressive towards your dog to the point where it is putting your dog in physical harms way, then yes - do what you have to do. I know I would (and have). 

But, if a dog is just reacting or acting aggressively towards my dog but is on leash and somewhat under control by it's owner then I am not going to drag my dog away and make it a bigger deal than what it is, which in turn would make it a big deal to my dog. 

My dog is not dog reactive and if I didn't tell you my dog is reactive once you met him, you would never know. I got to that point by going out and about and working with him. Around the thing that triggers his barking.

I never said anything about making your dog interact with these reactive or aggressive dogs, or even coming into close contact with them (within a few inches) but I am saying that they should still have the same rights (and do by law) as other well mannered dogs if controlled by their owners properly (eg. leash/crate/etc.).


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

Taz Monkey said:


> Totally agreed. Across the street from where I work, is a house that no one lives in, but there is a GSD mix that is tied to her dog box. (don't get me started, that belongs in a different thread). Anyway, when people, cars, etc walk or drive by, she barks ferociously, lunging at her chain. Well, this past winter, when I hadn't seen anyone there in 2 days (AC has been called, once again, belongs in another thread), I couldn't take it any longer and I knew I had to go feed her and break up her ice and give her fresh water. So I did. *She barked ferociously, lunging, pulling, looked like any regular Cujo that was going to kill me. I got to her and she is the sweetest dog ever. She's REACTIVE, but far far far from aggressive.*


This is the point I am trying to make, thank you. Also, a big "GREAT JOB!" to you for making the effort to care for this girl.

Also, wanted to add that some dogs suffer from leash/restraint frustration and the barrier created by the leash/collar acts as a stimuli and actually triggers the reactive behaviour. Once that is taken away, the dog is fine.

This is why when people do meet-and-greets between strange dogs it is always advised to either drop the leash or let the leash go lax.


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

Selli-Belle said:


> Is a reactive dog merely an aggressive dog that is under control?


No, I personally do not think so.

I think that an aggressive dog has certain traits (either by genetics or environment) that has change the dogs temperament. I personally believe genetics are a huge factor in this, like almost 90% with 10% being environment.

I think an aggressive dog is a combative dog; there are also different types and levels of aggression. It is not as black and white as some believe. 

I believe that in general an aggressive dog has INTENT on doing harm to whatever it is that triggers them, let that be people, other dogs, etc.

While a reactive dog (without the aggression) is doing just that, reacting to a stimuli. They have no INTENT on causing harm and are merely reacting the only way a dog knows how to do - bark. Lunging comes from the barrier of the leash which to me is a consequence to frustration. 



Selli-Belle said:


> What would happen if a dog that was putting on that type of display, especially the growling and lunging, got free?


That is up to the owner to ensure that their reactive or aggressive dog didn't have that opportunity. 

Of course if a dog who was reacting strongly to my dog got free and came charging at us that I would defend my dog, of course I would as would anyone else, but that is where my training comes in with my dog. 

But him behind me, expect him to stay and not to react.


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## alijeanrn (May 7, 2010)

Enzos_Mom said:


> At the same time, the uncomfortable person could remove themselves from the situation just as easily. How is an owner supposed to correct the issue with their dog if the dog isn't allowed in public at all? They should be taking safety precautions, by all means, but the dog has to learn somewhere. If it doesn't, then what will the fate of the dog be?? Be sent to a shelter so that it can be euthanized for being overexcited?? Many dogs get overexcited. My dog does. The only difference is that instead of barking when he's overexcited, he humps or digs.


So if your dog was a lunger when he's overexcited you think it's ok to stand there and let him jump all over someone? Are you saying you would tell the person he's jumping on to move and you would stay there? You are imagining a perfect world where these people are actually training and socializing their dogs. The dogs I've encountered who behave like this have probably never had a day of obedience class in their life. Anyway, the OP is not talking about overexcited dogs, it's referring to aggressive dogs.


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## alijeanrn (May 7, 2010)

I have to add to the aggressive vs reactive debate. I had a friend who had a dog that had no history of biting, just barking at people. The dog didn't lunge or chase. I knew this dog for years and she always barked and never bit...until the day she actually bit me. It wasn't a terrible bite but it certainly changed the way I react to barking or lunging dogs. I guess you could say this made me a reactive person.


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

elisabeth said:


> This is the point I am trying to make, thank you. Also, a big "GREAT JOB!" to you for making the effort to care for this girl.
> 
> Also, wanted to add that some dogs suffer from leash/restraint frustration and the barrier created by the leash/collar acts as a stimuli and actually triggers the reactive behaviour. Once that is taken away, the dog is fine.
> 
> This is why when people do meet-and-greets between strange dogs it is always advised to either drop the leash or let the leash go lax.


Thanks, I have nowhere for her to go or she would have "disappeared" long ago. But I make sure she has food and water. The minute I find a foster for her, I shall be making a trip late at night wearing all black! The people don't even live there anymore!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I think this thread is comparing apples to oranges - even if you're just talking about a "reactive" dog. A "reactive" dog who is under control and with a responsible owner will not be lunging, barking and snarling while the owner goes on their merry way ignoring the problem. A responsible owner would be working with the dog to correct the behavior. That may be taking place out in public, but a responsible owner of a "reactive" dog would be ensuring they have complete control of the dog to avoid putting other people or animals at risk. A responsible owner understands that other people/animals shouldn't be the guinea pigs for their dog. 

A dog that is excited and a little too happy/jumpy/etc is, IMO, not aggressive or reactive - that's not even remotely the same thing. Taking an excited dog out in public is teaching a dog to be a polite member of doggy society and what is or isn't appropriate behavior. But again, the responsible owner of an excitable dog isn't just letting their dog act up in Petco (or wherever), they're working with their dog to correct the behavior. 

It seems to me that this is just so much more about the owner than the dog. Certainly everybody has the right to take their dogs into public places, but the responsible dog owner is setting their dog up for success - not for failure. And every dog can have their moment of misbehavior, of whatever kind. But a responsible owner doesn't just accept it, they work to correct the behavior going forward. It doesn't sound like camping ground guy was doing that with his dogs. JMHO


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> A dog that is excited and a little too happy/jumpy/etc is, IMO, not aggressive or reactive - that's not even remotely the same thing. Taking an excited dog out in public is teaching a dog to be a polite member of doggy society and what is or isn't appropriate behavior. But again, the responsible owner of an excitable dog isn't just letting their dog act up in Petco (or wherever), they're working with their dog to correct the behavior.
> 
> It seems to me that this is just so much more about the owner than the dog. Certainly everybody has the right to take their dogs into public places, but the responsible dog owner is setting their dog up for success - not for failure. And every dog can have their moment of misbehavior, of whatever kind. But a responsible owner doesn't just accept it, they work to correct the behavior going forward.


Exactly. 

But I used the excited dog comparision because I was thinking about other people's reactions to a lunging golden retriever (people immediately thought my shy Dee was aggressive because he was aloof around strangers) or even golden retriever owners reaction to other breeds. Here on GRF, we are absorbed enough in the dog world that we know how to read dog behavior... at least well enough to know the difference between an aggressive dog and a hyperactive dog. But there are dog owners out there who do not know the difference. 

I made that statement because I think it's freakydeaky about people seemingly lumping any dog they perceive as a threat in one category - even if they don't mean to. 

It all goes back to this story I read about a boxer who got loose from his yard and was sniffing around in somebody else's yard. This was an extremely friendly dog who did not have an aggressive bone in his body. The owner of that yard saw the dog and immediately thought it was a pitbull looking for a victim. And he grabbed his gun and took after the dog shooting. He shot that dog and continued to chase it all the way back to the dog's yard where the dog crawled into his doghouse. And then he shot it dead. 

I immediately thought of that boxer when I read about people kicking dogs to high heaven and spraying them in the face with pepper spray (which can cause a severe and painful condition for the dog). And this regarding any lunging dogs, not just those expressing clear signs of aggression - at least that's how I read those comments. 

There are aggressive dogs out there - I've gone to class with more than a few. But in general, their owners are doing everything possible to keep their dogs under control while working with their dogs to fix their problems. And all of those people use petstores and other places as training spots when they aren't at class.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

alijeanrn said:


> So if your dog was a lunger when he's overexcited you think it's ok to stand there and let him jump all over someone? Are you saying you would tell the person he's jumping on to move and you would stay there? You are imagining a perfect world where these people are actually training and socializing their dogs. The dogs I've encountered who behave like this have probably never had a day of obedience class in their life. Anyway, the OP is not talking about overexcited dogs, it's referring to aggressive dogs.


There's a big difference between having my dog in the same store/campground as someone who was uncomfortable with it vs. letting my dog lunge at/jump all over the person. Remove him from the person, sure, I would. Remove him from the whole PLACE because someone is uncomfortable (not because someone is being harmed), I feel is unnecessary. As long as you have control over your dog, you're doing your part. It's like being at the dog park. Your dog might not be an instigator, but if you're uncomfortable with how the dogs are interacting, you leave.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Taz Monkey said:


> Thanks, I have nowhere for her to go or she would have "disappeared" long ago. But I make sure she has food and water. The minute I find a foster for her, I shall be making a trip late at night wearing all black! The people don't even live there anymore!


Bless you, Elizabeth - I hope you find a foster soon. Poor girl.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

The difference to me is, if my dog(s) were the ones lunging and going crazy (even if it was just because they were happy to see the other dog) I would be apologizing to the person while I moved in the other direction as I was correcting the behavior. I wouldn't stand there acting entitled to my piece of public property and not moving my dogs away from the situation. But, again IMO, that's being a responsible dog owner. 

And I think it's clear that a dog being shot for being in a yard is a gross overreaction. But I have to say, our neighbor's male black lab ran full speed toward Chloe recently snarling and growling while Chloe was on leash and he was off. (He has a history of aggression in our neighborhood and his owners are idiots who let him run off leash all the time.) I had a shovel in my hand and if the neighbor hadn't grabbed the dog before he got to Chloe I wouldn't have just let her get mauled by him. That may have been an overreaction by me had it gotten to that point, but it wasn't a disagreement between two dogs playing with a toy or something along those lines, the dog has bitten people and other dogs. Hate me if you must, but I think I have a duty to protect my dogs in that type of situation. And being around idiots who don't control their dogs is not exactly a comfortable situation for most people - even worse when it's your wanna-be BYB of black labs neighbors. 

But the idiots who don't control/correct their dogs are usually also the idiots who are oblivious to the fact that they need to remove their dogs from a situation. Again, JMHO.


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## alijeanrn (May 7, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> The difference to me is, if my dog(s) were the ones lunging and going crazy (even if it was just because they were happy to see the other dog) I would be apologizing to the person while I moved in the other direction as I was correcting the behavior. I wouldn't stand there acting entitled to my piece of public property and not moving my dogs away from the situation. But, again IMO, that's being a responsible dog owner.
> 
> And I think it's clear that a dog being shot for being in a yard is a gross overreaction. But I have to say, our neighbor's male black lab ran full speed toward Chloe recently snarling and growling while Chloe was on leash and he was off. (He has a history of aggression in our neighborhood and his owners are idiots who let him run off leash all the time.) I had a shovel in my hand and if the neighbor hadn't grabbed the dog before he got to Chloe I wouldn't have just let her get mauled by him. That may have been an overreaction by me had it gotten to that point, but it wasn't a disagreement between two dogs playing with a toy or something along those lines, the dog has bitten people and other dogs. Hate me if you must, but I think I have a duty to protect my dogs in that type of situation. And being around idiots who don't control their dogs is not exactly a comfortable situation for most people.
> 
> But the idiots who don't control/correct their dogs are usually also the idiots who are oblivious to the fact that they need to remove their dogs from a situation.


Something similar happened to me when Sadie was about 6 months old. A large dog came running at us out of nowhere and jumped on top of her. I didn't know which house he belonged to, never saw him before. He didn't hurt her but he was all over her, she was terrified and so was I. I couldn't get this dog off her. One of the neighbors was standing outside watching all this and didn't come over to help. I know it was not his dog, but at the time I was mad at him for not helping me. I was really struggling and the only thing I could do to keep this dog off her was to pick her up and carry her with this dog jumping at her as I ran away. I'm lucky she was small enough. I could never carry her away now! After that, I carry dog mace.


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## bbuzz (Aug 8, 2010)

As a rule of thumb I personally feel I don't have the right to negatively impact upon a another person. If my dog was ever lunging and barking at someone for no valid reason I would stop the dogs behavior or remove myself from the situation. I feel it comes down to a moral decision, no matter what I don't have the right to negatively impact other people/dogs such as the guy with his three dogs did. Yes the other person can remove themselves from the situation, but they shouldn't have to.

In the case of reactive dogs I don't feel it's positive or productive to have them out in public misbehaving. It's not about if the dogs have a right to be out there, more about what the optimal situation for everyone. Making it stressful and uncomfortable for the owner, harder to train or correct.

I personally feel the dogs should not have been at the camp ground. Instead I would train the dog, not using member of the public but training with the assistance willing friends and their dogs. I would then progressively start taking the dog into public, but only when the dog is able to not react and the situation is going result in a positive outcome. After surely if you the dogs are reacting in public with strangers the behavior is only being reinforced and developing as an automatic reaction. 

I think it's important to mention it's always easy to pass judge from the outside and advise what to do when it's not you living with a reactive dog. Our girl had separation anxiety when we got her it took alot of patience, frustration and training for her to get to being happy, calm and reassured when left alone. I can imagine having a reactive dog presenting similar levels of frustration!


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Megora said:


> I made that statement because I think it's freakydeaky about people seemingly lumping any dog they perceive as a threat in one category - even if they don't mean to.
> 
> It all goes back to this story I read about a boxer who got loose from his yard and was sniffing around in somebody else's yard. This was an extremely friendly dog who did not have an aggressive bone in his body. The owner of that yard saw the dog and immediately thought it was a pitbull looking for a victim. And he grabbed his gun and took after the dog shooting. He shot that dog and continued to chase it all the way back to the dog's yard where the dog crawled into his doghouse. And then he shot it dead.
> 
> I immediately thought of that boxer when I read about people kicking dogs to high heaven and spraying them in the face with pepper spray (which can cause a severe and painful condition for the dog). And this regarding any lunging dogs, not just those expressing clear signs of aggression - at least that's how I read those comments.


I was the person who mentioned my husband kicking a dog who had jumped on our leashed dog, causing my husband to kick that dog into the stratosphere. And I had never been happier about him. Because HE PROTECTED our dog from a vicious attack. 

My Cassie, who was my heart dog, was mauled as a young dog. I saw her white fur turn red with her blood, I heard her yelps of fear and pain and those sounds I still remember to this very moment, they will NEVER go away. I thought I was losing her. If I would have had pepper spray in my hand I would have used it and I could not have cared less what pain that spray would have caused the dogs that were attacking my girl to within an inch of her life.

Weekend before last I heard a dog become engaged in an altercation, and the same dog came after my dog while we were at the cash register. Had I not seen it he would have attacked Max. I moved away and the owner of that beast allowed that dog to follow Max all the way around the register to where I put myself between the dog and Max while putting Max in the cash register box and I would have done all I could to protect my dog. If I would have had a weapon I would have used it because that dog was after my dog. I saw that pit bull go after another dog outside the store. And as horribly bad luck would have it, that dog was right next to my car when we went home.

THAT DOG HAD NO BUSINESS BEING IN PETCO. NONE AT ALL.

So, before anyone becomes offended by my ex kicking a vicious dog, or my potentially causing pain to a dog as he's mauling my dog by spraying it with pepper spray, TOO BAD. My consideration is my dog's safety first. If I'm faced with a beast I will defend my dog.

And please, I'm very aware at the difference between an overexcited greeting dog and the aggressive dogs who attacked my dogs.

Until you see your dog being mauled you don't know what I have experienced. And I am ABSOLUTELY NOT maintaining ANY TOLERANCE for an aggressive/reactive dog. BECAUSE IN THE MIDST OF A LUNGE I'M NOT GOING TO SIT THERE AND ASK THE OWNER "EXCUSE ME, IS YOUR DOG REACTIVE OR AGGRESSIVE?" *SO I WILL ABSOLUTELY LUMP THEM TOGETHER IF MY DOG'S SAFETY IS AT STAKE.*

I will use whatever force is necessary to protect my dog if he's under attack. ANY FORCE.


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

I'm not trained enough to tell if a dog running at us is reactive or aggressive. I'm not going to give the dog long enough to show me, I'm going to react (most likely by instinct) and protect myself, my dog, my brother, my mom, my dad... whoever I'm with.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> the owner of that beast


Again, my thought is you are putting all of the angst and rage against the dog. Who was likely poorly trained and should not have been put in that position. Believe it or not, but pitbulls can be great dogs in the right hands. My guy's best girlfriend is a pitmix who is a sweetheart whose whole world revolves around her owners, particularly their little boy. 

The owner should have known better than bring his dog to the store on a busy day. And I'm wondering about that petstore having him bring his dog to group classes if he was that reactive. I'm sure we all agree on that point.

I've been to a lot of dog classes and go to two different clubs - and have for many years been around obedience training clubs and people. How I look at it is a tragedy, especially since things like this happen because of people not taking their dogs to classes and learning how to handle them and keep them and other dogs safe. And yes, they do happen because the wrong people own them. 

From the sounds of it, that person at Petco did not have a clue what he was doing. I would have been furious at him - not the dog.


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

Megora, I agree with what your wrote.

I just don't see how if two dogs who are leashed, and not physically causing harm to one another (even if one is aggressive or reactive or whatever) that a person can place blame on that dog? 

I do agree that if a dog is being reactive or aggressive towards another dog or person or whatever and the OWNER doesn't respond appropriately then the owner is to blame here.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this.

I have had my leashed dog bitten twice (once by another GSD and the other by a 10lbs poodle mix) by off leash/not controlled dogs, did I blame the dog? No, I blamed the owner who stood 50ft away yelling for his dog to come.

I grew up with the saying, "no bad dogs, only bad owners" and maybe that isn't true but it is something that I strongly believe in. 

I am in no way defending the idea that aggressive dogs should go around barking and lunging at people or other dogs but I do think they have the right to be with their owner in public areas to be worked with.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> The difference to me is, if my dog(s) were the ones lunging and going crazy (even if it was just because they were happy to see the other dog) I would be apologizing to the person while I moved in the other direction as I was correcting the behavior. I wouldn't stand there acting entitled to my piece of public property and not moving my dogs away from the situation. But, again IMO, that's being a responsible dog owner.


Same here<: 

I did not mean to imply I was running up to people and "inflicting" them with my leaping idiot. I was generally training my dog to ignore other dogs not meet them. 

Where I (poorly) used that example was simply those times when people sneaked up the aisle and my dog would throw himself at the people or their dogs. <- I don't want any dog owners mistaking my dog's overexuberant advances as a threat and kicking or pepperspraying him. That was aside the point though. 

Taking my dog to petstores + leash training + using people and their dogs as distractions while proofing helped a ton between classes. I wasn't interested in the CGC test, so the meet/greets were not as important as my dog being able to walk past another dog without noticing him.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Megora said:


> Where I (poorly) used that example was simply those times when people sneaked up the aisle and my dog would throw himself at the people or their dogs. <- I don't want any dog owners mistaking my dog's overexuberant advances as a threat and kicking or pepperspraying him. That was aside the point though.
> 
> Taking my dog to petstores + leash training + using people and their dogs as distractions while proofing helped a ton between classes. I wasn't interested in the CGC test, so the meet/greets were not as important as my dog being able to walk past another dog without noticing him.


There is a world of difference between an exhuberant greeter and a dog with its teeth around my dog's neck. In the latter case, I will kick or pepper spray or use a bat. Whatever force is necessary to have that dog's teeth away from my dog's neck.

Using an unknown dog as a distraction is something I do. However, I would not do that if my dog were lunging at the other dog. And if an unknown dog could be a threat to mine, I have the right to know about it so I can choose my reaction.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

There has been a great deal written about rights. I figured it is time for me to explain mine.

I have the right to enjoy shopping with my dog without being attacked.
I have the right not to be used as a training aid for a nasty dog without my consent.
I have the right to defend my dog from a nasty dog.
I have the right to exercise whatever force is required when my dog is under attack to save him.
Because I have bought or adopted dogs primarily for temperament and because I have socialised my dogs and trained them since they were young puppies as to proper behaviour I have the right to frequent establishments where there is a sign outside the door that says "Your welll behaved leashed dog is welcome" and I have the right to expect that other dogs in that establishment behave similarly.
Since I have relinquished public dog parks and streets to dangerous dogs I have the right to expect my dog to be safe in areas that I have previously studied and have deemed to be safe.
I do not have the right to expect the world to cater to me; rather, I have the obligation to ensure that my dog and other dogs are able to enjoy dog friendly establishments by ensuring appropriate behaviour from my dog.
Because I have taken the steps necessary to ensure good behaviour on the part of my dog, because I have adopted dogs that were well tempered, because I have bought dogs who come from lines where breeders breed for temperament as well as health then yes, my rights to enjoy my dogs in safety trump an ill-tempered animal to be in an environment that calls for well tempered animals.

I would like to see where there is a law that allows for lunging dogs to be allowed in a public environment. I want to see a law that states that a dog can be used as a training aid for a nasty dog without the owner's consent. I want to see where it says that a well mannered dog can be barked at, lunged at, growled at without the owner's consent. I want to see a law that says that an ill tempered dog must have the same access to public areas as a well mannered, trained, fully socialised dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Lilliam said:


> There is a world of difference between an exhuberant greeter and a dog with its teeth around my dog's neck. In the latter case, I will kick or pepper spray or use a bat. Whatever force is necessary to have that dog's teeth away from my dog's neck.


I'm right with you _if a dog is actually attacking my dog_. Last summer a dog jumped his fence and came running out to attack Jacks. I got between him and my baby and kicked him away. I kicked the dog hard enough to make him cry out and run howling back to his house. 

As I've said on another thread, I do not want my dog defending himself. I will always step in and keep my dog safe and keep my dog from learning bad behaviors. This does not always mean violence towards the other dog. Most cases, you can interupt things in a direct and calm way. Like last night I removed a dog from my guy's back with a little correction that was unpleasant enough for her to get the message. I did not have to kick her or injure her in any way. 

But I firmly believe that people need to get their dogs out to train, even if they have aggression problems. It is impossible to train a dog solely at home - they need exposure and constant socialization, otherwise their problems will get worse. <- This is why I'm responding to this ridiculous debate on something that we all agree on (see the following). I think some people might get all extreme about feeling T H R E A T E N E D and I think it's hype like this that causes ALL dogs to get banned from locations. Especially a lot of the rescue groups who use these stores as a mobile adoption center (which could be a good thing from my perspective, since there is a favorite petstore I can't take my guy because the rescue group put dog crates next to the door so I had to walk a then 7 month old golden pup past a dog who was crate guarding). 

That DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT mean they are putting other dogs in danger. There were so many things WRONG about him taking that dog to the store when so many people were around, particularly since he had no control over the dog or wasn't making any attempts to keep his dog away from other dogs. <- That not even training the wrong way. It's just stupidity and on the same level of recklessness as driving drunk.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Hi, OP here finally coming back! 
My thought on those dogs being (poorly) under control by that owner--by his "allowing" them to lunge, bark, snarl at people and dogs in the campground he could be "ruining it" for those of us with well behaved dogs (and BTW, he made no apparent attempt to correct the dogs when they were lunging and barking at dogs as he walked them through the campground, nor when they charged me at the office window. He merely held onto the leashes). 
Two park rangers observed the dogs going for me as I approached the window to turn in my pass. The dogs knocked over a 6 ft x6 ft wooden sign and clearly had malevolent intent as they strained on the leashes for me (this was not an enthusiastic greeting). As I backed away, one park ranger walked out into the road to take my pass and the other ranger obviously was having a discussion with the owner. I didn't stay around to listen or discuss the situation, just handed in my pass and left.
By this happening, it could plant the seed in the park rangers mind: should the park continue to allow dogs in this campground? what if a child were injured, would the national park system be liable?


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

I have a reactive dog! I would like to hear what people have to say about how I manage her...

Some time around christmas when she was about 11 months old, she started becoming VERY afraid and barkish about things. She would growl at the sound of the front door clicking, the doorbell, people in the street (from our apartment window). Sometimes in the middle of the night she would jump up barking away. When I walked her, her fur would stand up and her tail would drop when anyone approached. She would hide into my leg. If the person tried to touch her or stared at her, she would growl. I was terrified that my dog was turning into a monster. 

I did tonnes of reading, I looked for help on the forum. I conditioned her to like wearing a Halti for safety. I got her a harness for even more safety. I did TONNES of counter-conditioning, but for that I needed to be in the presence of a low level stimulus. How did we achieve that? We took walks at night or early when there were fewer people. I let her observe them from across the street. I walked her to the gas station and we'd stand in a corner watching people at the pumps. Was she in public? Yea! She needed to be to around the things that scared her. How would I bring enough strangers into my home?

We progressed to where she could pass people on the same sidewalk and not react. We could sit at the bus stop and people watch together. Was I guaranteed that she was fixed? No.  Did I need to take a small chance so we could improve, I guess. Does that make me a bad dog owner? Should I have just kept her in the apartment?

I can list the no. of times she barked and lunged offhand. Once, we were walking at night, she pooped. I pulled her off the walking path and bent down to pick up the poo, next thing I knew, she was barking, lunging and scaring the crap out of me. A group of teens dressed in black had appeared out of no where.. Phew. Another time I was walking her and a guy had his beagle off leash (leash laws here!). He deliberately sent his dog up to her, she sat for a while, then exploded when I tried to move off. 

She's improved lots, and as part of our progression I try to take her to the pet store once a week. We don't greet anyone. Just hang out in the aisles, I train her to be calm. She practices her tricks and performs for some people from a distance. I'm trying to get her to learn that strangers aren't scary. A few times she approached people on her own accord and asked for pets. Were they at risk? I guess. I tell them that my dog is scared and reactive, but they still reach down and pet away before I can finish. Usually she is fine. She always wears a collar and a Halti and/or harness. A couple of times she barked scarily in the pet store. Once when a very tall man stared intently at her for a long time (while I was trying to usher her away, men are worst for her), another when a man insisted on petting my dog while I told him not to. I guess goldens look too friendly.

She never would be how she is now without opportunity to train in public. I do try my best to keep her from ever reacting, but it happens.  When it does, I have her under control. But had some of the forum members been around, maybe my dog would have been deemed unworthy to be in the store?

Oh and she does her silly lungy thing at dogs when we walk.. She wants to play, no barking or what not. But it is bad behaviour...

I think I'm just ranting. Raising a reactive dog is hard


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Megora said:


> *But I firmly believe that people need to get their dogs out to train, even if they have aggression problems. It is impossible to train a dog solely at home - they need exposure and constant socialization, otherwise their problems will get worse.* <- This is why I'm responding to this ridiculous debate on something that we all agree on (see the following). *I think some people might get all extreme about feeling T H R E A T E N E D and I think it's hype like this that causes ALL dogs to get banned from locations.* Especially a lot of the rescue groups who use these stores as a mobile adoption center (which could be a good thing from my perspective, since there is a favorite petstore I can't take my guy because the rescue group put dog crates next to the door so I had to walk a then 7 month old golden pup past a dog who was crate guarding).
> 
> That DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT mean they are putting other dogs in danger. There were so many things WRONG about him taking that dog to the store when so many people were around, particularly since he had no control over the dog or wasn't making any attempts to keep his dog away from other dogs. <- That not even training the wrong way. It's just stupidity and on the same level of recklessness as driving drunk.


On the first bolded part, I disagree with you as vehemently as you feel that it should happen. I do not choose to be the conduit for a training session with a dangerous dog. I am not saying to train them solely at home, there are behaviourists where they can get the training they need. There are classes where they can go. They do not have the right to impinge upon my well behaved dog's enjoyment of a store, a camping ground, a beach, whatever. I have the right to choose the manner in which I protect my dog, and disclosure that I am being used is not something that I'm keen on giving up on. A dangerous dog on a leash can become a dangerous dog off leash in the blink of an eye, an unguarded moment from the owner or a particularly strong lunge. Then an innocent dog can be potentially mauled. Having experienced two of these, I have the right to know that there is a dangerous dog around. And the owner has a moral obligation to disclose a dangerous dog to the public around him.

On the second bolded part I agree with you. A nasty dog is tragically used to ban all well behaved dogs from establishments, futhering imginging on my rights to take my well behaved dog to dog friendly establishments. That's further reason why a nasty dog should not be trained in public, but rather in controlled environments with people and situations where there is full disclosure as to the dog's temperament.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Summer's Mom said:


> I have a reactive dog! I would like to hear what people have to say about how I manage her...
> 
> Some time around christmas when she was about 11 months old, she started becoming VERY afraid and barkish about things. She would growl at the sound of the front door clicking, the doorbell, people in the street (from our apartment window). Sometimes in the middle of the night she would jump up barking away. When I walked her, her fur would stand up and her tail would drop when anyone approached. She would hide into my leg. If the person tried to touch her or stared at her, she would growl. I was terrified that my dog was turning into a monster.
> 
> ...


 
It is not a matter of unworthiness - it is a matter of safety. Had I been in your situation I would have gone to a behaviourist immediately. I would also expect that if you and I are in the same location that you would let me know that your dog can act out so that I have the choice to react in whatever way I deem appropriate.
Lunging is not silly. It is dangerous. Lunging can cause you to lose grip of the leash and the dog can go running into traffic. Lunging for an aggressive dog can be tragic for a child or another dog. 
You can take whatever steps you want, but not at my expense or in compromising my dog's safety. Because to me, my dog matters more than any training that may be needed by any dog that is not part of my family. Because to me, my dog is my family, and as such I will protect them. Because to me, a well tempered and well socialised dog is so important that when I went for Max the first thing I listed as "wants" was good temperament. Because I have 1) the right as a responsible owner to enjoy my dog free from fear or attack and 2) I have the obligation to not impinge on anyone else's rights to enjoy their dogs free from fear or attack. Because my dogs' safety come first, over and above anyone else's activities.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> On the first bolded part, I disagree with you as vehemently as you feel that it should happen. I do not choose to be the conduit for a training session with a dangerous dog. I am not saying to train them solely at home, there are behaviourists where they can get the training they need. There are classes where they can go. They do not have the right to impinge upon my well behaved dog's enjoyment of a store, a camping ground, a beach, whatever. I have the right to choose the manner in which I protect my dog, and disclosure that I am being used is not something that I'm keen on giving up on. A dangerous dog on a leash can become a dangerous dog off leash in the blink of an eye, an unguarded moment from the owner or a particularly strong lunge. Then an innocent dog can be potentially mauled. Having experienced two of these, I have the right to know that there is a dangerous dog around. And the owner has a moral obligation to disclose a dangerous dog to the public around him.


Yes, definitely the owner has a moral obligation to keep his dog from attacking anybody or anything. 

All dog owners have a responsibility to keep their dogs from being a public nuisance - that means a dog jumping over everything, peeing or pooping in stores, pooping outside and not cleaning up after the dog, and so forth. Common sense things.

But honestly and frankly, I think a lot more people use you and your dog as props in their training without you knowing about it. And a lot of these people have dogs with aggression issues. And the reason why you don't know about it is because they attend dog classes or behavioralists and know how to train their dogs properly long before they start going to petstores and sidewalks and parks to work on everything they learned between lessons. 

The thing that's totally nuts about that guy is that he was not training his dog properly and (I'm assuming) was enrolled in dog classes at a store! Even if they were private dog classes because of his issues, that's still a pretty inappropriate place for teaching somebody how to handle his behaviorally dysfunctional dog. And based on the fact that the guy was walking his dog around on a busy day, I doubt he even was learning anything useful at those classes. 

ETA - I'm not even including the guy with the three crazy dogs at the campground. From the sounds of it those dogs probably never had a training day in their life. I would have done the same as Ignutah and either gone elsewhere or waited to see if the chaos ring would be sent packing.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Megora said:


> But honestly and frankly, I think a lot more people use you and your dog as props in their training without you knowing about it. And a lot of these people have dogs with aggression issues. And the reason why you don't know about it is because they attend dog classes or behavioralists and know how to train their dogs properly long before they start going to petstores and sidewalks and parks to work on everything they learned between lessons.


And if anyone is using their aggressive dog around me and mine and anything happens, there will be bloody hell to pay. Especially if there is a history. 
And I reserve the right to know. If they don't tell me and their dog attacks, then I will avail myself of whatever means is necessary to ensure they never endanger anyone else again.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

Lilliam said:


> And I reserve the right to know. If they don't tell me and their dog attacks, then I will avail myself of whatever means is necessary to ensure they never endanger anyone else again.


But you can't realistically expect this guy to go around and tell each and every person on the store that he has a reactive dog. Yes, he went about things in the wrong way. But I don't think that what you're expecting him to do is exactly feasible. Do you want him to leave his dog in the car while he goes and tells each person in the store that he has a reactive dog before he brings him in?? I mean...how exactly do you expect him to go about notifying everyone??


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

Lucky you for having the perfect dog. Unfortunately not everyone else is as lucky as you, and they get to look out and do whats best for THEIR dogs. So long as their dog doesnt touch or hurt you, you can say anything you want but it won't mean a thing. Isn't that sad? You can't demand someone leave just because you think your dog might get hurt/affect his wonderful behaviour, but you can move away if you want to.

I'm not talking about a dog charging towards you and you kicking it away. But unfortunately happy bouncy dogs or barking dogs aren't for you or anyone else to do anything about. Often times I walk Summer away from barking/lunging dogs. That's my choice for her but I definitely can't ORDER someone else off the street or out of the store. When the dog is clearly out of control thats a different matter. Unfortunately you seem to think every dog that isn't as angelic as yours is a bad influence/danger.



Lilliam said:


> It is not a matter of unworthiness - it is a matter of safety. Had I been in your situation I would have gone to a behaviourist immediately. I would also expect that if you and I are in the same location that you would let me know that your dog can act out so that I have the choice to react in whatever way I deem appropriate.
> Lunging is not silly. It is dangerous. Lunging can cause you to lose grip of the leash and the dog can go running into traffic. Lunging for an aggressive dog can be tragic for a child or another dog.
> You can take whatever steps you want, but not at my expense or in compromising my dog's safety. Because to me, my dog matters more than any training that may be needed by any dog that is not part of my family. Because to me, my dog is my family, and as such I will protect them. Because to me, a well tempered and well socialised dog is so important that when I went for Max the first thing I listed as "wants" was good temperament. Because I have 1) the right as a responsible owner to enjoy my dog free from fear or attack and 2) I have the obligation to not impinge on anyone else's rights to enjoy their dogs free from fear or attack. Because my dogs' safety come first, over and above anyone else's activities.


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

Lilliam said:


> And if anyone is using their aggressive dog around me and mine and anything happens, there will be bloody hell to pay. Especially if there is a history.
> And I reserve the right to know. If they don't tell me and their dog attacks, then I will avail myself of whatever means is necessary to ensure they never endanger anyone else again.


You're talking about IF their dog attacks and IF anything happens. In the cases mentioned in this thread, no one was hurt. You were saying that no less-than-perfect dogs should be allowed in public. To protect your dog. So if nothing happens I don't think you can do anything about it. Sad reality of life...


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Enzos_Mom said:


> But you can't realistically expect this guy to go around and tell each and every person on the store that he has a reactive dog. Yes, he went about things in the wrong way. But I don't think that what you're expecting him to do is exactly feasible. Do you want him to leave his dog in the car while he goes and tells each person in the store that he has a reactive dog before he brings him in?? I mean...how exactly do you expect him to go about notifying everyone??


 .
Sure. It's very simple. I do it with all my puppies before they know how to greet correctly. I do it now when people approach my dog and they look like they're about to pet them. I simply say "I'm sorry, he's being trained to sit before being petted. Can you wait for him to pet him after his butt hits the floor?" It's my job as a responsible owner to know my dog well enough that if someone so much as makes eye contact with him he will want to greet them. Now even Max is at the point that he offers a sit when someone even looks at him because he knows that the petting will come only as long as his butt is on the ground. He becomes unruly around other dogs because he wants to meet everyone and it's my job to keep him controlled. So as I pull away from owners with other dogs I simply say he's very exhuberant about meeting other dogs and I place myself between Max and the other dog. Once the other dog owner tells me it's OK for them to greet then Max is allowed to greet them. 
All anyhone needs to do is to let owners know, as he approaches them, that his dog is likely to ________.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Summer's Mom said:


> You're talking about IF their dog attacks and IF anything happens. In the cases mentioned in this thread, no one was hurt. You were saying that no less-than-perfect dogs should be allowed in public. To protect your dog. So if nothing happens I don't think you can do anything about it. Sad reality of life...


No, I mentioned two instances where dogs were attacked. Mine. 

The OP posted about dogs who were clearly acting out. I am saying that dangerous dogs should not be allowed to endanger innocent dogs, children, or the public at large. Yes, to protect my dog. I signed up to the job when I picked up each one.


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

Lilliam said:


> Because to me, my dog matters more than any training that may be needed by any dog that is not part of my family. Because to me, my dog is my family, and as such I will protect them. *Because to me, a well tempered and well socialised dog is so important that when I went for Max the first thing I listed as "wants" was good temperament.* Because I have 1) the right as a responsible owner to enjoy my dog free from fear or attack and 2) I have the obligation to not impinge on anyone else's rights to enjoy their dogs free from fear or attack. Because my dogs' safety come first, over and above anyone else's activities.


Wow, looks like all of us who have less than perfect dogs went to the breeder asking for dogs with "bad temperament"! 

You have the right to do what's best for your family, as does everyone else. In order to improve quality of life for reactive dogs, thats what their owners do. Train them. I do it safely and do not endanger anyone. I let people who come near know. And I steer away from men and dogs. Of course, your dog is VERY sensitive, he is endangered by my dog potentially barking at him. Unfortunately, your family isn't the only one that exists or matters. And unless he gets hurt, I doubt there's much you can do about it. And if he does, feel free to use whatever violent means you choose, cos if he DOES get attacked, I'm all for whatever u want to do. And attacked doesn't mean growled or barked at. (not referring to the pitbull at the petstore, I have no problems with what you did there. but I don't believe in generalizing that)


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Summer's Mom said:


> Wow, looks like all of us who have less than perfect dogs went to the breeder asking for dogs with "bad temperament"!
> 
> You have the right to do what's best for your family, as does everyone else. In order to improve quality of life for reactive dogs, thats what their owners do. Train them. I do it safely and do not endanger anyone. I let people who come near know. And I steer away from men and dogs. *Of course, your dog is VERY sensitive, he is endangered by my dog potentially barking at him. Unfortunately, your family isn't the only one that exists or matters. And unless he gets hurt, I doubt there's much you can do about it. And if he does, feel free to use whatever violent means you choose, cos if he DOES get attacked, I'm all for whatever u want to do.* And attacked doesn't mean growled or barked at. (not referring to the pitbull at the petstore, I have no problems with what you did there. but I don't believe in generalizing that)


I did specifically request a dog with the best possible temperament as opposed to a coat colour or a dog who had won field trials, yes. Because that was the most important thing for me. For my border collies I chose first a good tempered puppy them a good working dog, except for my Cassie, who was the one nobody wanted because she was white. And for my long series of mixed breeds I went to shelters to pick up dogs who were good temperament for my family. Those were my choices. That's what I got.

My dogs are not sensitive, that's my whole point. They are not shy, they are not mean, they are not aggressive, they are not reactive. And it is my intent to keep that intact. Dogs can react badly after being attacked, that was one of my concerns after we got Cassie out of the hospital after she was attacked, that she would become reactive. Dogs can become fearful and act out if they are aggressed upon. And that's what I will do all I can to avoid. No, my family is not the only one that exists or matters, but it is the number one priority for me, and that means ensuring everyone is safe. That was the reason I was so happy when my ex husband kicked that dog who had attacked our dog, completely unprovoked, in the sculpture garden.

And no, I won't wait until they are hurt. I demanded the owner of that pit bull be removed from the premises. I demanded he move away from the door.

And I will not shy away from saying, again, that although I do not espouse violence, that if my dogs or my family are endangered I will react with whatever is needed, to include violence. It is my responsibility.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Summer's Mom said:


> Lucky you for having the perfect dog. Unfortunately not everyone else is as lucky as you, and they get to look out and do whats best for THEIR dogs. So long as their dog doesnt touch or hurt you, you can say anything you want but it won't mean a thing. Isn't that sad? *You can't demand someone leave just because you think your dog might get hurt/affect his wonderful behaviour, but you can move away if you want to.*
> 
> I'm not talking about a dog charging towards you and you kicking it away. But unfortunately *happy bouncy dogs* or barking dogs aren't for you or anyone else to do anything about. Often times I walk Summer away from barking/lunging dogs. That's my choice for her but I definitely can't ORDER someone else off the street or out of the store. When the dog is clearly out of control thats a different matter. Unfortunately you seem to think every dog that isn't as angelic as yours is a bad influence/danger.


I don't have perfect dogs - Billy is thunderphobic. Max thinks the entire world loves him. It is my job to do all I can to make sure they are the best they can be. But I have never had an aggressive dog. I may have been lucky these 55 years. Or I may have known how to pick. Or I chose from correct parents when I knew who the parents were. Or I saw behaviours and strove to correct them. 

And I know full well the difference between a happy bouncing dog and a dog that's coming at my dog's throat. That's clearly evident.

A barking dog makes people uneasy. Shoppers have the right to shop undisturbed. A person walking the street is concerned if they see a dog barking madly across the street. It is my job to ensure my dogs don't do that.

And yes, I can demand that. Because there is a sign at the door that says that well behaved dogs can come inside. And as patrons, if I am uncomfortable with a dog that looks like it may have aggression problems, we all have the right to demand that such a dog is removed. And store owners have the right to demand that a reactive dog be removed from the store. Show me a sign in a store that says that a barking dog has the right to bark at other dogs or at small children. I'd like to see that sign.


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

Summer's Mom said:


> I have a reactive dog! I would like to hear what people have to say about how I manage her...
> 
> Some time around christmas when she was about 11 months old, she started becoming VERY afraid and barkish about things. She would growl at the sound of the front door clicking, the doorbell, people in the street (from our apartment window). Sometimes in the middle of the night she would jump up barking away. When I walked her, her fur would stand up and her tail would drop when anyone approached. She would hide into my leg. If the person tried to touch her or stared at her, she would growl. I was terrified that my dog was turning into a monster.
> 
> ...


Sounds very much like Stark. His reactivity started around the same time as well.

I did a lot of what you did coupled with the LAT game and the use of a harness (Easy Walk) to apply pressure (calming signals) on his shoulders and chest.

I totally commend you for working with your girl, I also live in an apartment with a reactive dog - it is hard.

No one understands until they are IN that position.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> And as patrons, if I am uncomfortable with a dog that looks like it may have aggression problems, we all have the right to demand that such a dog is removed.


What if you have breed bias though? Do you have the right to demand that only golden retrievers are allowed to shop where you shop? 

And do you think that aggression is always so obvious as a growling or lunging dog? I don't mean to be condescending, but I think the fact of the matter is that goldens love to be instigators even though they aren't necessarily fighters. I own an intact male golden and will be very quick to correct my dog if he's staring another dog down or exhibiting a challenge (making himself bigger, raising that tail high, and again staring another dog down). Even if a dog is not known to be aggressive, it could very well be that he won't like being challenged and will attack your dog. 

If you are uncomfortable for any reason, remove your dog or stay away from dogs you are afraid of. You can also ask somebody to keep their dog (or horrible children) away from your dog. 

Speaking of children, what will you do to somebody's kids if they are antagonizing to your dog? I'm thinking about one situation where my sister repeatedly complained to a neighbor because their two horrible kids (both boys, both under 10) would ride their bikes behind her when she walked and they'd swoop past to scare her and the dog. FWIW - those children got theirs when another neighbor's chocolate lab that I've mentioned time and again ripped the face off of one of them. <- But there are kids out there like that. And they might be hanging around those petstores you shop with.


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

*A barking dog makes people uneasy. Shoppers have the right to shop undisturbed. A person walking the street is concerned if they see a dog barking madly across the street. It is my job to ensure my dogs don't do that.*
My dog does not go for people's throats, and she rarely barks and not at small children. That is where we are at now. Obviously if she is barking at a person in the street I would take measures to stop her. Why would you imply otherwise? But according to you, she would be a threat to your family. Because there is a chance she MIGHT. So basically all dogs to hell except those just like yours..

I agree that dogs that bark incessantly are a nuisance, but I could just as easily move myself and Summer away from a barking dog if I think she might react to it. Just saying, just because you think its your right doesn't mean you have to make the world revolve around you. 

You called someone condescending, maybe you should reflect about that term 



Lilliam said:


> I don't have perfect dogs - Billy is thunderphobic. Max thinks the entire world loves him. It is my job to do all I can to make sure they are the best they can be. But I have never had an aggressive dog. I may have been lucky these 55 years. Or I may have known how to pick. Or I chose from correct parents when I knew who the parents were. Or I saw behaviours and strove to correct them.
> 
> And I know full well the difference between a happy bouncing dog and a dog that's coming at my dog's throat. That's clearly evident.
> 
> ...


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Summer's Mom said:


> You called someone condescending, maybe you should reflect about that term


If championing the rights of my dogs, if ensuring their safety, if being careful that everyone I love is safe is being labeled condescending, then I wear the term proudly. Because in the final analysis, my husband matters to me above any other man, my children and grandchildren matter to me above anyone else, and I am my dogs' custodian for their entire lives and they matter to me more than any other dog. They come first. That means ensuring their safety. It does not mean that I have to give up their well being so that someone else can use them as a prop or a guinea pig to teach their dogs. Because in the final analysis I AM RABID about protecting those I love, humans and animals.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

Lilliam said:


> If championing the rights of my dogs, if ensuring their safety, if being careful that everyone I love is safe is being labeled condescending, then I wear the term proudly. Because in the final analysis, my husband matters to me above any other man, my children and grandchildren matter to me above anyone else, and I am my dogs' custodian for their entire lives and they matter to me more than any other dog. They come first. That means ensuring their safety. It does not mean that I have to give up their well being so that someone else can use them as a prop or a guinea pig to teach their dogs. Because in the final analysis I AM RABID about protecting those I love, humans and animals.


Owners of reactive dogs feel the same way about THEIR dogs and are doing what they need to do to make their dogs happy and healthy. Their dogs need training to do that. They have JUST as many rights in public as you do as long as their dog is not harming anyone. I don't know why you think that any other dog besides yours has less of a right to be somewhere. I get if you CARE less about other dogs' rights, but actually going as far as to say that your dog trumps them isn't right. The law doesn't hold your dogs in higher regard than everybody else'.


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

Err... yea. I'm pretty sure everyone cares about their own the most. Who wouldn't? The point is you don't have to label other's dogs and talk down about them just because you think yours are great. And for the record, I'm not endangering anyone's dogs with my training. I'm pretty sure your well-being would not be harmed.

RABID is a good word to describe yourself. It sort of carries the connotations of affected in the mind and not behaving rationally. Funny that you chose that term. 



Lilliam said:


> If championing the rights of my dogs, if ensuring their safety, if being careful that everyone I love is safe is being labeled condescending, then I wear the term proudly. Because in the final analysis, my husband matters to me above any other man, my children and grandchildren matter to me above anyone else, and I am my dogs' custodian for their entire lives and they matter to me more than any other dog. They come first. That means ensuring their safety. It does not mean that I have to give up their well being so that someone else can use them as a prop or a guinea pig to teach their dogs. Because in the final analysis I AM RABID about protecting those I love, humans and animals.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I chose the term in full knowledge of the connotation given the discussion.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Summer's Mom said:


> Err... yea. I'm pretty sure everyone cares about their own the most. Who wouldn't? .


My point, exactly. 



> The point is you don't have to label other's dogs and talk down about them just because you think yours are great. And for the record, I'm not endangering anyone's dogs with my training. I'm pretty sure your well-being would not be harmed..


I have not labeled anyone's dog. Everyone has labeled their own dog. I have not said to anyone "your dog is reactive" or "your dog is aggressive." Show me where I did that.




> RABID is a good word to describe yourself. It sort of carries the connotations of affected in the mind and not behaving rationally. Funny that you chose that term.


Really? Have your dog attacked. Witness that a couple of times. Then tell me that an aggressive/reactive dog has the same rights to be in the same spot as mine. And I'm waiting for the sign that says that a reactive/lunging/aggressive dog has a right to enter an establishment and that owners of well behaved dogs must accept that.


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

Lilliam said:


> I chose the term in full knowledge of the connotation given the discussion.


Glad we share that understanding about yourself


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## Iggy987 (Oct 1, 2009)

I have a fear reactive lab who started this behavior around 1 1/2 years old.
We have been through extensive obedience training and he does very well.
When he started his reactivity,I had him examined for any physical causes.When there was no physical problems found, I sought out a vet behaviorist;worked on his protocols. We also sought out a cert. trainer and took two classes to work on tools for dealing with his reactivity.

The point I am getting at is that these dogs are good dogs, they are in need of help and training that is probably life long with peaks and valleys of success. Given a choice, no one would choose to have a reactive dog.It is hard frustrating work and I have cried for him because his world has been made smaller because of it. No more dog parks,no play groups, all of which he loves but can no longer handle. I am very careful to always have him under physical control, but if he barks and lunges at a dog I use that as a training time as should the other dog and owner. We do not ever come close to the other dog.People give small yappy reactive dogs a pass on the very same behavior my 84# lab does not get.
May you never have a less than perfect dog that you love because in order to deal with reactivity you have to accept the dog for who he is. That is the first step in dealing with his fears. I don't try to figure his fears out anymore,there his and my roll is to help him through his life as best as we can together.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Enzos_Mom said:


> Owners of reactive dogs feel the same way about THEIR dogs and are doing what they need to do to make their dogs happy and healthy. .


And that's fine. But not by lunging at mine. I say "mine" because I speak for no one else other than myself.



> Their dogs need training to do that. They have JUST as many rights in public as you do *as long as their dog is not harming anyone*. .


A lunging and aggressive dog is one accident away from harming someone.



> I don't know why you think that any other dog besides yours has less of a right to be somewhere. I get if you CARE less about other dogs' rights, but actually going as far as to say that your dog trumps them isn't right. The law doesn't hold your dogs in higher regard than everybody else'.


A well behaved dog in a public environment has more right to be there than a dog that is acting out. I again bring up the sign at the door of dog friendly establishments that say that well behaved dogs are allowed. And I again say that I care more about my dog than anyone else's. I would be a pretty poor owner if I tell someone that their snarling, lunging, growling dog is perfectly OK to be in a public setting than mine. So a well behaved dog's rights to be somewhere trumps a snarling, lunging, growling animal. And I am still waiting for the sign or the law that says that a snarling, lunging, growling dog has equal rights than a well behaved dog.


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

Lilliam said:


> Really? Have your dog attacked. Witness that a couple of times. Then tell me that an aggressive/reactive dog has the same rights to be in the same spot as mine. And I'm waiting for the sign that says that a reactive/lunging/aggressive dog has a right to enter an establishment and that owners of well behaved dogs must accept that.


You won't have a sign saying that, but you don't usually have a sign saying the converse either so I don't know what you're getting at. And i'm not talking about outrightly aggressive dogs, you wouldnt even know Summer was reactive if you saw her.. so I don't know what your gonna do about it. And I doubt any store owner would ask us to leave if on the rare occasion she gives 2 barks and stops. Only they might have a rabid owner marching up to them. Hmm. That wouldn't be pretty. Maybe humans need reactivity training too!!


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

Btw just to add. Dogs that are snarling, growling and lunging massively probably haven't reached the stage of training where they SHOULD be in a pet store anyway. If the dog is reacting so badly, its NOT benefiting from the training, its just practicing the behaviour. Unfortunately I doubt there's a law that states that lunging dogs are a danger and should be prohibited. If there is one I'm all ears! If anyone really wants to keep their dog safe, steer clear of potential problems. No need to go all "but its my right to be here you go away first". Sounds like an elementary school playground feud.

And someone seems extremely obsessed with signs, maybe cos they back her argument. Unfortunately signs aren't the law...


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Iggy987 said:


> I have a fear reactive lab who started this behavior around 1 1/2 years old.
> We have been through extensive obedience training and he does very well.
> *When he started his reactivity,I had him examined for any physical causes.When there was no physical problems found, I sought out a vet behaviorist;worked on his protocols. We also sought out a cert. trainer and took two classes to work on tools for dealing with his reactivity.*
> 
> ...


I have bolded the two parts that I want to address.

What you describe are the steps that I would take if I had a reactive dog.

I hope I never have a reactive dog, but if I do, I will not make others around me uncomfortable around him. And if I attempt to use another dog or dog owner as part of training I will let that person know so that he/she has *a choice *as to how they should respond.

I am not saying that a dog should not be trained, I am saying that I don't want me or mine used as a tool in that training without my consent. And that if I have a dog that is reactive it is my moral obligation to inform those who are around him.


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## jweisman54 (May 22, 2010)

So, Lilliam.....from reading your posts, I take it that any dog who is reactive in any way while you are out walking with your dog is a dog that should not be out on a leash with its' owner. They have every right to be there as does your dog. If you don't like having contact with a reactive dog, then maybe it should be you who does not go out with your dog. Reactive dogs are not aggressive dogs. They react to certain stimuli. Look at the definitions of reactivity. Yes, some reactive dogs may be aggressive dogs but that is a totally different subject altogether. The way to teach a so called reactive dog, is to take it out in the real world and subject it to every day life events, using positive reinforcement, using classes and socialization. 

Do you also think that a human being who has a loud mouth at a baseball game should not be allowed to be there because he/she is reactive to a bad play while the person sitting next to that reactive person is calm and complacent? 

I understand your need to protect your family, we all want to protect those who we love but you are going to extremes here.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Summer's Mom said:


> You won't have a sign saying that, but you don't usually have a sign saying the converse either so I don't know what you're getting at. And i'm not talking about outrightly aggressive dogs, you wouldnt even know Summer was reactive if you saw her.. so I don't know what your gonna do about it. And I doubt any store owner would ask us to leave if on the rare occasion she gives 2 barks and stops. Only they might have a rabid owner marching up to them. Hmm. That wouldn't be pretty. Maybe humans need reactivity training too!!


 
Have you had your dog attacked? Have you had her blood in your hands, on your clothes? Have you heard her yelps? Years later, when you go over her coat, have you felt the scars from the attack? On her last day on earth, as she lay on the table, and you ran your hand over that scar, can you forgive the dogs who caused her that pain? CAN YOU???? HAVE YOU?!?!?!?!?! 

Until you have experienced that, don't come to me talking about any dog having a right to be in the same PLANET as the dog you now try to protect from an attack such as that, because you swore to her to NEVER LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I am off this thread.


I will protect my dog. 

No other dog matters more to me than mine.

No one matters more to me than those i love.

Because all i can remember now are my dogs yelping from pain and fear. And i am here at work crying my eyes out *because that memory doesn't go away. *because no one should see anyone they love victimised just because someone feels that they have a right to have a dangerous dog where it doesn't belong.


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

Lilliam said:


> Have you had your dog attacked? Have you had her blood in your hands, on your clothes? Have you heard her yelps? Years later, when you go over her coat, have you felt the scars from the attack? On her last day on earth, as she lay on the table, and you ran your hand over that scar, can you forgive the dogs who caused her that pain? CAN YOU???? HAVE YOU?!?!?!?!?!
> 
> Until you have experienced that, don't come to me talking about any dog having a right to be in the same PLANET as the dog you now try to protect from an attack such as that, because you swore to her to NEVER LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN.


Easy! Remove your dog from dangerous situations. Thats the best and easiest way. Unfortunately, its not satisfactory to you because.. "hey! thats not fair!"

You aren't just saying you want to keep your dog safe, you want the world to defer to you and your good dogs because..... hmmm. good dogs have more rights? If safety were the only issue, there wouldn't be an issue at all.


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

Lilliam said:


> I am off this thread.
> 
> 
> I will protect my dog.
> ...


Aww, so sad.

And yea, good dogs who have some fear/reactivity problems shouldn't be victimized and isolated just because some people think their dogs deserve more. Especially when people are just paranoid from prior experience and think that a dog who barks a couple of times on leash is a disaster waiting to happen. 

If I were ever attacked I'm sure my dad would go around clearing out any dangerous looking man in my presence. :uhoh: just in case!! I mean... that guy was staring!!!! Oh my, he flexed his muscles. Dad, shoot him!!


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## jweisman54 (May 22, 2010)

You have had a bad experience and for that I feel terrible but you cannot tell every dog owner who has a dog who may or may not be reactive to stay away. That isn't a real life situation. Most dogs do NOT attack....maybe some will attach if provoked or are genetically predisposed to that type of behavior.

I had adopted a Golden Retriever many years ago from a rescue. He was about 2 years old and had been badly abused. None of this was disclosed to me and I brought him home to 2 toddlers and an infant. Well, he tried to attack all 3 of my children. At that point I tied him to a pole in my basement, called the rescue org. and had them pick him up. He was put down the next day. That is my situation with what you might call a reactive dog but he was not reactive he was a born killer because he was protecting himself because he himself had been abused by a human.

Don't go and blame the rest of society for something that happened to you.


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

You keep asking, "was your dog attacked?!" and I have told you that my dog has been, twice.

I still feel and understand that those dogs although the owners were in the wrong for having them off lead and no control over them (via voice commands) have the same rights as my dog.

If I walked into a pet store, stood next to you and your dog in line waiting to be cashed out, talked with you about the weather all the while having our dogs sniff and play you wouldn't know that my dog was people reactive. You could pet him, talk to him and even hand him a treat which he would take nicely from you from a sit position. You wouldn't have a clue.

You know how we got to that point? Training in public settings because the classes we took or the clubs we attend won't help his issues because he is comfortable there, with those people who he sees on a regular basis.

I think most people who have dog-reactive dogs go to pet stores to work with their dogs because they HOPE that other owners and those who love dogs, will have more of an understanding and appreciation of them and their dogs for undergoing training.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Guys, this is beating a dead horse. I think we can all agree that a very reactive dog who is unable of being controlled by their owner should not be in a Petco. I think we can all agree that the non-reactive dogs don't own the world. No one is saying either of those things. 

It's all about setting your dog up for success and the owner who is not doing that, regardless of the level of "reactiveness" of their dog (not sure that's a word) is the problem - not the dog. Theoretically you wouldn't even know a dog is "reactive" if they are being controlled and trained appropriately.


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

Agreed.


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## jweisman54 (May 22, 2010)

Also, agreed. I think this thread should be closed out at this point. :--dumbfounded:


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Guys, this is beating a dead horse. I think we can all agree that a very reactive dog who is unable of being controlled by their owner should not be in a Petco. *I think we can all agree that the non-reactive dogs don't own the world. No one is saying either of those things*.
> 
> It's all about setting your dog up for success and the owner who is not doing that, regardless of the level of "reactiveness" of their dog (not sure that's a word) is the problem - not the dog. Theoretically you wouldn't even know a dog is "reactive" if they are being controlled and trained appropriately.


Uhh actually isn't that exactly what someone was saying? That non-reactive dogs have more rights?? And that my reactive dog who is being rehabilitated with a *chance *of barking/lunging should not be allowed in a pet store? Even if I am in control because HEY just a leash away from disaster.

But ok, since you are taking the lead in being diplomatic I shall stop now lest I become rabid.


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## West (Jul 9, 2010)

Lilliam, I can really sympathise with your feelings. I have had my dog attacked and it's a horrible situation that nobody should have to endure. But reactive and aggressive dogs need training and the only effective training is facing situations that would usually trigger an aggression while under the control of their owners. They need to learn, they are not bad dogs who want to hurt. And sometimes when you know their stories you understand their reactions and the need to help them. And I assure you, reactive and even aggressive dogs can become balanced individuals with the correct training and handling.
What is extremely important is for their owners to understand and care about their dog's special needs. The problem is that sometimes humans are not only letting these reactions happen, but also bringing them about with their own behaviour through negligence, ignorance or plain wickedness.
But if the dog has a responsible owner who is in control of the situation and concerned about their dog's behaviour, each outing is a step towards a more adjusted dog.

You know, Cooper was attacked twice when he was a pup, by the same dog. Both times the owner was negligent and really far from the off-leash dog when the attack took place. On one occassion I had to use my leash to actually hit the dog and get him to let go of Coop, who was still a pup. Of course I gave the owner a piece of my mind and that dog now goes to the park on a leash and only in the early morning and at night, when there are no other dogs around. I can't say I like that dog at all, but I really think the owners are to blame entirely. In fact, I know that the owners are horrible people who took the dog away by force from its first owners (an underprivileged boy and his father) claiming they didn't take proper care of it, when, in fact, the dog used to be balanced and not aggressive with its first family and has now become a monster. That dog had played with Cooper when its first family took him to the same park, because the boy and his father had complete control over him. But with the new wrong owners, it acquired this strong aggressive impulse. So, it's clearly the people's fault, not the dog's. 
On another occassion Cooper was viciously attacked and made to bleed by a small dog. I knew they would have to find a way to deal with each other, as they share activities five days a week. The owner, who knew his dog was sometimes territotial and possessive and could become aggressive but hadn't thought he would do much harm being so small in size, agreed to get him a muzzle and work with him. Now, after a month, Cooper and the attacker get along just fine and can even play together (supervised, of course!). 
And I was horrified when I saw my beloved dog with blood oozing from his nose and ear, and when I took him to the vet every 48 hours for ten days to give him antibiotics. And when I was told he would have a scar on his nose for life (in the end, it's just a faint grey line that you can't even notice if I don't point it out). I was horrified and furious and I wanted to kill the other dog. But I took a couple of days, saw that Cooper was healing perfectly and wasn't at all phased by the incident and I knew they had to sort things out, because it would be good for both of them. And in this particular case, with these particular two dogs, it was the right thing to do.
Mind you, I know there are dogs who won't stop until they have killed their oponent. I know there are some dogs who are beyond help sometimes and we shouldn't expose our dogs to situations like those. But whenever there is a possibility of improvement, it should be sought. 
Dogs with behavioural problems do get better. We cannot banish them from public places, as we would be giving them a life sentence of home imprisonment and we would be sending the message that they cannot be redeemed. And then somebody might come and decide that our Goldens might pose a risk because they are big enthusiastic dogs who may accidentally harm somebody and that we should keep them confined to our homes. I know it's different, but I think all dogs deserve a chance to be outside, in public, and get to socialise. It's necessary for their well-being.
So, as long as the owners are really under control and willing to work with their dogs, they have the right to do it and nobody should tell them to "leave them at home".


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I just have to state that I own an American Pit Bull Terrier. Is she re-active? Sometimes under certain situtations do I have under control yes always. She has a strong collar and heavy duty leash on at all times. Do I have a right to have her out in public yes I do. I can not tell you how many times I have had other dogs lung at my girl and growl and bite the air when we walk by. These dogs she ignore but yet because she is a pit bull she is the one called dangerous.

I think that if you see a re-active dog and you have the oppertunity to educate the owner on how to train these dogs then you should.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

West said:


> So, as long as the owners are really under control and willing to work with their dogs, they have the right to do it and nobody should tell them to "leave them at home".


If you recall, the OP (me) described a situation where the owner was making no attempt to teach or correct his dogs. He was a large man, and by virtue of his size and strength, was able to hang onto the leashes.
Also, I observed the 3 dogs "reacting" to the dogs who were minding their own business at their campsites (the 3 leashed dogs were walking on the street with the owner, all the dogs that were tied up in the campsites-mine included-were a good 20 or more feet away) and no dog in a campsite responded in any way to the leashed dogs nor did the owner admonish or correct or attempt to train his "reactive" dogs.
So, when I walked toward the office window (without my dog) and the dogs came flying at me, I was taken completely by surprise because my prior assumption was that these dogs only "reacted" to dogs, not people. I have no idea whether the dogs were also aggressive, whether they would have attacked me if they could have pulled their leashes out of the owner's hands. Remember, he told the park ranger "I didn't see her".....so he was not ready to keep control of his dogs as he didn't know someone was walking up to the office window.
Also, remember, I had business to transact with the park office. I was not able to approach the window as the dogs were barring me from doing so.
So, since the owner had no desire to help his "reactive" dogs improve their behavior, my suggestion stands, 'MAYBE SOME PEOPLE SHOULD LEAVE THEIR DOGS AT HOME'.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Never mind<:


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Family Dog Attacks - DogsBite.org

http://chronicle.augusta.com/latest-news/2011-01-24/girl-9-dies-dog-attack

http://www.edgefielddaily.com/county072208.html

http://www.whiotv.com/news/27533643/detail.html

http://www.aspcabehavior.org/articles/49/Aggression-in-Dogs.aspx

http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/dogs/tips/aggression.html

http://www.sptimes.com/News/083000/Hernando/Pit_bull_kills_family.shtml

http://www.carolinalive.com/news/story.aspx?id=582839

http://www.co.washington.or.us/HHS/AnimalServices/AnimalControl/Complaints/aggressive-nuisance.cfm

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/inland_empire&id=7212269

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/qvusdogbiteslstatutes.htm

http://dogbitelaw.com/dog-bite-statistics/the-dog-bite-epidemic-a-primer.html


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Never mind.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

How is a person going to tell the difference, between a reactive dog, and a agressive dog? If i see teeth, barking, coming after my dog, or myself, i just want it away from us.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Of course you want your dog to not be near an aggressive dog or a reactive dog that is human nature. I think that what some on here are trying to say is that you dont judge someones dog or the person that owns the dog. You dont know the history you dont know what is going on with the dog or the person. If you are able to help you should offer to do so. I have, I have seen people with dogs and you can tell the owner is at their wits end so you offer some advice you dont judge you yell you dont kick the dog in the air. you help if you can or if you dont know you direct them to a forum that can help them.

The talk about pitbulls is upsetting to me. I have had pit bulls now for 8yrs each one has been different. I had 2 pts. One had sever health issues that I doctored with for over a year and could not make well no matter what her three vets tried and the other turned HA at 18 months. I kept her for 6 more months and chose to pts because I didnt want my dog being part of the problem.

I take Vendetta everywhere. I train her everywhere I go. My dog does not care for men and we are working on it. This weekend she was better around the three men in her tracking class and I was proud of her. She doesnt growl or lung at them but if they make fast movement she will bark but mostly she tries to hide. That is her reaction. It has not been easy to train her to leave everything alone to ignore other dogs but she does. Do all people have the right to own an American Pit Bull Terrier...hell no it takes a different type of owner one that has a thick skin and the patience of job. Once you have a well trained pit you really dont want another breed but I stress they are not for everyone and if you are considering getting one I would hope that you educate yourself and your family.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Guys, this is beating a dead horse. I think we can all agree that a very reactive dog who is unable of being controlled by their owner should not be in a Petco. I think we can all agree that the non-reactive dogs don't own the world. No one is saying either of those things.
> 
> It's all about setting your dog up for success and the owner who is not doing that, regardless of the level of "reactiveness" of their dog (not sure that's a word) is the problem - not the dog. Theoretically you wouldn't even know a dog is "reactive" if they are being controlled and trained appropriately.


I've never had a reason to quote myself before today, and I'm fairly certain that I will never do it again. Let's just let this one go....ok?


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Would not have a pit bull, no way.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

goldensrbest said:


> Would not have a pit bull, no way.


 That is fine that you feel that way but it is wrong to lump all APBT together and that they are a bad breed is wrong.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

This thread has run its course and is so incredibly off topic. Mods, I think closing would be a good idea


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

elisabeth said:


> I think before this thread can carry on, we need to think about a few things.
> 
> One; *a reactive dog does not mean an aggressive dog.* A dog who barks or reacts, is not necessarily an aggressive dog.
> 
> ...


You sound like you have your hands full with one mildly reactive dog... now imagine trying to correct three of them with that type of behaviour all at once. This is absolutely not acceptable whether or not you're experienced in correcting dogs with reactive tendencies. I have my hands full with two non-reactive dogs in settings like that -- having three very reactive animals at once in that situation is begging for an incident.


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

hi OP, I don't think anyone was disagreeing with your statement... More like how one other member jumped in decided to state that none if us with dogs with issues should be allowed in public. There is no arguing that those 3 dogs could have hurt you.. But apparently my dog who on rare occassion may bark in the petstore offends someone and should not be allowed in public even with precautions taken vos she is a danger. All dogs with less than perfect temperament should stay at home? Hmmm.. I think that's the issue.



lgnutah said:


> If you recall, the OP (me) described a situation where the owner was making no attempt to teach or correct his dogs. He was a large man, and by virtue of his size and strength, was able to hang onto the leashes.
> Also, I observed the 3 dogs "reacting" to the dogs who were minding their own business at their campsites (the 3 leashed dogs were walking on the street with the owner, all the dogs that were tied up in the campsites-mine included-were a good 20 or more feet away) and no dog in a campsite responded in any way to the leashed dogs nor did the owner admonish or correct or attempt to train his "reactive" dogs.
> So, when I walked toward the office window (without my dog) and the dogs came flying at me, I was taken completely by surprise because my prior assumption was that these dogs only "reacted" to dogs, not people. I have no idea whether the dogs were also aggressive, whether they would have attacked me if they could have pulled their leashes out of the owner's hands. Remember, he told the park ranger "I didn't see her".....so he was not ready to keep control of his dogs as he didn't know someone was walking up to the office window.
> Also, remember, I had business to transact with the park office. I was not able to approach the window as the dogs were barring me from doing so.
> So, since the owner had no desire to help his "reactive" dogs improve their behavior, my suggestion stands, 'MAYBE SOME PEOPLE SHOULD LEAVE THEIR DOGS AT HOME'.


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## West (Jul 9, 2010)

lgnutah said:


> If you recall, the OP (me) described a situation where the owner was making no attempt to teach or correct his dogs. He was a large man, and by virtue of his size and strength, was able to hang onto the leashes.
> Also, I observed the 3 dogs "reacting" to the dogs who were minding their own business at their campsites (the 3 leashed dogs were walking on the street with the owner, all the dogs that were tied up in the campsites-mine included-were a good 20 or more feet away) and no dog in a campsite responded in any way to the leashed dogs nor did the owner admonish or correct or attempt to train his "reactive" dogs.
> So, when I walked toward the office window (without my dog) and the dogs came flying at me, I was taken completely by surprise because my prior assumption was that these dogs only "reacted" to dogs, not people. I have no idea whether the dogs were also aggressive, whether they would have attacked me if they could have pulled their leashes out of the owner's hands. Remember, he told the park ranger "I didn't see her".....so he was not ready to keep control of his dogs as he didn't know someone was walking up to the office window.
> Also, remember, I had business to transact with the park office. I was not able to approach the window as the dogs were barring me from doing so.
> So, since the owner had no desire to help his "reactive" dogs improve their behavior, my suggestion stands, 'MAYBE SOME PEOPLE SHOULD LEAVE THEIR DOGS AT HOME'.


Ok, but you also said that the three dogs were never off leash, right? So the guy was aware of the problem and took precautions (not letting them off leash). That is not enough, I agree with you, but it effectively prevented any damage to you or your dogs or anybody's dogs, if I'm not mistaken. And you don't really know if he is training them or not or if he happened to be taking a break and, knowing that his size and strenght would keep him in control even with three dogs, he just chose not to work with them at that exact moment (which I'm inclined to consider a mistake, but won't if I don't have the whole story).
So I understand your distress -we have all been there at least once-, but I still consider it an overreaction to say that reactive dogs should be confined to their own houses.
Honestly, I read a lot of these stories in the forum and I think that the only consequence of them is more people deciding not to take their dogs to parks or places where they can socialise properly out of fear of the so called aggressive dogs. 
I know Cooper has enjoyed the park immensely, even though he was attacked. And I know he'll keep on enjoying it and he won't live in fear, so why should we? Fear and hate and discrimination against a particular breed or type of dog don't lead anywhere. Awareness and information on how to react effectively to prevent any harm do.


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## West (Jul 9, 2010)

And I don't get the people who hate pitts. They are wonderful dogs and can be the sweetest pets. One of Cooper's friends is a Pitt and he licks Coop's face to say hello every time he sees him. Cooper is crazy about him and their playing together is actually much less rough than the playing between two Goldens. 
There are a lot of Pitts and American Staffords in my neighbourhood and I haven't met one who represented a threat to Cooper's well being. On the contrary, he has played with many of them since he was a small pup and they have always been amazing with him. I've seen poodles that were much more aggressive than them.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

It really isn't a wise idea to use "any" dog to work with a reactive dog......I have a friend who is a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist and Selli and I have worked with her on a couple of cases. Realize that this is in an enclosed room with the owners and my friend at one end and Selli and I walking back and forth on the other end. I have Selli on a formal obedience heel and she is looking at me and never even looks at the other dog.

Furthermore, if a person is working with their reactive dog properly, other people and other dogs will not realize that the dog is reactive. When properly working with a reactive dog, you should never push it over its threshold where you start to get snarling lunging behavior. Therefore, when you see a dog who is acting that way toward humans or other dogs, it is evidence that either the human is training improperly, or is not trying to resolve the issue at all.

And I do believe that well mannered dogs should and do have more "rights" then reactive, poorly behaved or aggressive dogs. Lilliam made the point several times that at the store there was a sign that "well-mannered pets were welcome." The store was giving them more rights. In my shop, I allow friendly sociable dogs to walk around off leash (although not the ones who steal treats), but poorly mannered dogs MUST be under tight leash control at all times. Really, it is a safety thing, and a liability thing for me. Therapy dogs, who are certified as well-mannered and non-reactive get to go to many places that other dogs can't. Reactive/aggressive dogs will be excused from AKC events if they cause a disturbance and a dog that growls at a judge can be banned from entering any AKC event.

My Duffy does not like children, he will bark and growl at them when they approach him. If they leave him alone, he will gladly ignore them. It is my responsibility to keep him away from children, both for his sake and for the child's sake. We do our best to avoid children and if we have to deal with them I DON'T let him act out. I don't think I have the right to take him into a public park where there are a group of children playing, well legally I may have have the "right," but morally I don't think it is right.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Reactive/aggressive dogs will be excused from AKC events if they cause a disturbance and a dog that growls at a judge can be banned from entering any AKC event.


Random note, but this is also true of dogs that show fear or anxiety in the ring. It's why so many people use petstores, parks, sidewalks, etc to work with their dogs. Regardless of the issue. If you want to enter your dog in trials, you have to make sure your dog can be relaxed in public and must be able to tolerate a judge walking up to him and leaning over him while petting him. Lots of socialization and public training, in other words. 

Not all dogs make good therapy dogs, unfortunately. Even our Sammy could not handle the sight of a wheelchair and some people with disabilities wigged him out. He could handle people with epilepsy, but I think other people gave off different vibes that he wasn't used to. <- And he passed his CGC unlike my Dee. 

It's interesting how dog's brains work. 



> Furthermore, if a person is working with their reactive dog properly, other people and other dogs will not realize that the dog is reactive. When properly working with a reactive dog, you should never push it over its threshold where you start to get snarling lunging behavior. Therefore, when you see a dog who is acting that way toward humans or other dogs, it is evidence that either the human is training improperly, or is not trying to resolve the issue at all.


Totally true. I did want to say I absolutely agree with this.

I am a little weirded out about a store with dogs off leash.  I don't know what your shop looks like, but I'm mentally picturing a Pet Provisions size store. I think that I would prefer everyone's pets to be on leash when I go in a store to shop. I don't really care whether they are well-mannered or not. I expect them to be under the control of their owners. Just because a dog is well-mannered does not mean very much if I don't know you or your dog.


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

Braccarius said:


> You sound like you have your hands full with one mildly reactive dog... now imagine trying to correct three of them with that type of behaviour all at once. This is absolutely not acceptable whether or not you're experienced in correcting dogs with reactive tendencies. I have my hands full with two non-reactive dogs in settings like that -- having three very reactive animals at once in that situation is begging for an incident.


I did have my hands full, yes. 

Stark is at a place in our training where he is totally under control. Could be from maturing (he just turned 2), training, exposure, confidence, or all of the above.

I also said that it was stupid for the man in the OP to have all three dogs out at one time for that exact reason; not being able to work with the dogs properly.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Megora said:


> I am a little weirded out about a store with dogs off leash.  I don't know what your shop looks like, but I'm mentally picturing a Pet Provisions size store. I think that I would prefer everyone's pets to be on leash when I go in a store to shop. I don't really care whether they are well-mannered or not. I expect them to be under the control of their owners. Just because a dog is well-mannered does not mean very much if I don't know you or your dog.


I have a small self-service dog wash and I sell some treats and supplies. The area that the dogs can wonder around is small and in clear sight of everyone. And by well-mannered, I mean that they do not go rushing up to new people and dogs. If someone comes in who is not comfortable with the situation, all the dogs go back on leash or are controlled in some other way. Luckily I am the boss and get to choose who gets to be on-leash or off-leash and I only allow dogs I know well to be off-leash.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Selli-Belle said:


> I have a small self-service dog wash and I sell some treats and supplies. The area that the dogs can wonder around is small and in clear sight of everyone. And by well-mannered, I mean that they do not go rushing up to new people and dogs. If someone comes in who is not comfortable with the situation, all the dogs go back on leash or are controlled in some other way. Luckily I am the boss and get to choose who gets to be on-leash or off-leash and I only allow dogs I know well to be off-leash.


OK - so you aren't doing a whole indoor dog park thing with random loose dogs. :no: I'm going to guess that you are screening who gets to be off leash and not. 

I think part of the reason why I was flipping out last night is because even at class we don't do that. There are dogs who have gone OTCH who when left off leash in a nontraining situation go rushing up to stare down somebody's dog. <- I've never have had this happen with goldens (the nasty one who hated my guy's guts was always kept on leash at class, the ones at the classes I attend are more interested in partying and give off all the right signals), but different breeds (shepherd types) are naturally more assertive.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Megora said:


> Random note, but this is also true of dogs that show fear or anxiety in the ring. It's why so many people use petstores, parks, sidewalks, etc to work with their dogs. Regardless of the issue. If you want to enter your dog in trials, you have to make sure your dog can be relaxed in public and must be able to tolerate a judge walking up to him and leaning over him while petting him. Lots of socialization and public training, in other words.


I believe that dogs can be excused from the ring if they show fear or anxiety, bu they are excused from the trial if they "disturb" other handlers or dogs and banned from AKC events if they are "out of control" or "attack" in the opinion of the judge or show officials.



> Not all dogs make good therapy dogs, unfortunately. Even our Sammy could not handle the sight of a wheelchair and some people with disabilities wigged him out. He could handle people with epilepsy, but I think other people gave off different vibes that he wasn't used to. <- And he passed his CGC unlike my Dee.


True, but because they have demonstrated to the satisfaction of the therapy dog organization and by extension their insurance company and the place they are visiting that the dog is well-mannered and not reactive, they are given special privileges or rights.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Selli-Belle said:


> I believe that dogs can be excused from the ring if they show fear or anxiety, bu they are excused from the trial if they "disturb" other handlers or dogs and banned from AKC events if they are "out of control" or "attack" in the opinion of the judge or show officials.


Yep. I know. I was simply pointing out a random fact, particularly based on why people train at stores. 

I went through it with my Dee who while he did not have an aggressive bone in his body needed a lot of socialization work. He came from a good breeder (or she was then) and a lot of his issues stemmed from the pain he was in when a young dog (elbow dysplasia, lots of painful physical exams at different vets, bad experience with a creepy tall guy who kept following us around a petstore trying to pet Dee and even followed us out to the parking lot!). 

I do not think he would have growled or barked at a judge, but he definitely showed fear.

We would have been excused. So a lot of our trial hopes relied on us using petstores and other public places as training grounds. In our case, we could have cared less about how our dog reacted with other dogs (he was aloof, but ambivalent about any dogs he didn't know), but we definitely did use people as training props. The more positive experiences he had, the better. 

With people with aggressive breeds that they hope to get into trials, I'm sure they go through the same kind of training. Because they will be in close quarters with other dogs outside the ring, and while the sits/downs are one thing - there's the long walk into the ring where you follow somebody else's dog the whole or might be closely followed by another person's dog. But as you (Selli) pointed out, it needs to be done correctly. If somebody is doing the training correctly, they control every situation and are taking every precaution to ensure their dogs only have positive experiences. So that would not be going and doing meetups with unknown dogs at the petstore. It would be working on focus the entire time they are in the store and not giving their dog a chance to think dirty thoughts. *laughs* At least it seems so simple to me based on how my sister works with her collie who is "reactive" to other dogs he sees as a threat. If he were a person, he would be like this little squirt who runs up to curse a group of thugs out and then goes running off to hide behind his mom. >.< 

The reason why I brought up the CGC thing is that while dogs pass tests with flying colors, they are still animals who will have random glitches pop up. I guess it all goes towards making sure your dog gets as much exposure around things he would experience (wheel chairs, braces, different smelling people, etc) early on.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I have to weigh in and say that, though I participate in and value the rehabilitation of aggressive/reactive dogs, it is completely inappropriate to practice on the unsuspecting public. Trainers should be assisted by nonreactive dogs also handled by competent trainers with full consent all around. Owners of reactive dogs should at the very least observe the five foot rule, and realize that it is poor protocol/ practice to head out the door to socialize/ train without asking the other owner's permission.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> I have to weigh in and say that, though I participate in and value the rehabilitation of aggressive/reactive dogs, *it is completely inappropriate to practice on the unsuspecting public. Trainers should be assisted by nonreactive dogs also handled by competent trainers with full consent all around.* Owners of reactive dogs should at the very least observe the five foot rule, and realize that it is poor protocol/ practice to head out the door to socialize/ train without asking the other owner's permission.


 
Thank you for that statement. The public is not a guinea pig or a prop. We have the right to choose to participate or not.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

West said:


> And I don't get the people who hate pitts. They are wonderful dogs and can be the sweetest pets. One of Cooper's friends is a Pitt and he licks Coop's face to say hello every time he sees him. Cooper is crazy about him and their playing together is actually much less rough than the playing between two Goldens.
> There are a lot of Pitts and American Staffords in my neighbourhood and I haven't met one who represented a threat to Cooper's well being. On the contrary, he has played with many of them since he was a small pup and they have always been amazing with him. I've seen poodles that were much more aggressive than them.


I have two close dog trainer friends who adore bully breeds and live with four each. They participate in weight pulling, obedience, and rescue, and teach Bully Manners and CGC for Bullies. They eat and sleep bullies, and they are also the very first ones to say it is within the "breed standard" for Am Staffs etc to experience sudden dog aggression after age two, and that wise bully breed owning means acknowledging that, and being very vigilant and cautious about the bully's threshold and body language around dogs. Human aggression is a different story, and should not be part of these friendly dogs. It is possible to be concerned about bullies interacting with your golden without having breed bias or "hating" the sweet dogs IMO.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

elisabeth said:


> I did have my hands full, yes.
> 
> Stark is at a place in our training where he is totally under control. Could be from maturing (he just turned 2), training, exposure, confidence, or all of the above.
> 
> I also said that it was stupid for the man in the OP to have all three dogs out at one time for that exact reason; not being able to work with the dogs properly.


I can into this thread super late. You can pretty much ignore my post completely.


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

I sympathise with anyone who has had a dog attacked. I have punched a staffie who bit my jack russel and wouldn't get off her. I have kicked a border collie who jumped it's garden wall and tried to bite Diesel and then Willow while it's family stood and watched!! It is scary and of course you protect your dog NO MATTER WHAT IT TAKES.

But I have seen the other side too. An attack by two GSD's on my 6 month old baby left Diesel fear aggressive to larger dogs. They chased him down a field and he became stuck in a metal fence. Never forgot it.

Having a reactive dog is the hardest thing I had experienced as a dog owner and some of the posts on this thread have made me feel like dirt. I too choose my dogs for the wonderful temperment of the parents. For GSD's I was welcomed to their territory like family. Others in Diesel's litter have had no issues but my baby dog changed that day in the park.

In all the time he was reactive he never hurt another dog, he never even got close to another dog as that would have only set him back. If he got to the barking/lunging stage that was my fault as I pushed him too far.

I can now walk past other dogs who are barking and lunging at Diesel without him reacting at all. We can play with other dogs and visit pet stores now (he adores pet stores!) and I am so proud of him now. Just yesterday we walked past two people each with a staffie who were barking and lunging at Diesel. He didn't even grumble back!

We had a wonderful trainer but still had to go out in public. Should I have hidden him away? No walks just training sessions once a week? I don't know. Should I?

How close is too close? If my dog attacked your dog I would expect you to use any means to stop him. If we are across the road and he barks what then? 

It is a emotional dicussion for either side.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> It is a emotional dicussion for either side.


So true. 

And one thing I wanted to say, particularly since I was reprimanded for my careless tone on another thread, I never intended to belittle the emotions of somebody fearful for their own safety as well as their dogs. I think we all would turn into He-Man Destroyers if it came to protecting our babies from an attacking dog who is loose or essentially loose (the owner has no control but insists on taking his dog out in public). 

Where I myself probably got a little emotional or sticky on this thread was I know how difficult it is to socialize a difficult dog. My only personal example was getting my golden to have more confidence around other people. I knew he would never be a social flower, but I had to get him so he wasn't trying to run away when people reached for him. And I had to get him so he wasn't shaking and shrinking to the ground when I took him to a crowded place. My dog wasn't abused, but I remember everyone asking me if he was a rescue abuse case. 

By all means, if a dog is hopeless or too dangerous to be out in public... if he is untrainable - I think that it's better to put that dog to sleep, as another member said. This is something my mom said early and often when we were dealing with our first golden's grumpy nature. He had his limits, but they were limits we could control and live with. 

Taking a dog out so he's used to seeing people and dogs and ignoring them is better than keeping that dog at home and isolating him to the point where anyone who comes on their property is in bigger danger than they otherwise would be if the owner was DOING something. 

My grandma on my dad's side owned a white shepherd. My grandma on my mom's side owned two white shepherds. These dogs all were family pets, but they definitely had a strong protective streak. 

My maternal grandma took her two dogs (intact male and female for that matter) out and about with her and she "muted" that protective streak. It was still there, but they were completely under control and they never would have attacked anyone. Because of how cheap my grandma was, this was all training on her own. She did not pay for a trainer and I'm sure she was just like her parents and only took the dogs to the vet when something was wrong. I'm not advocating all that, especially since my grandma knew her dogs. 

My paternal grandma didn't take her dog to classes or whatever and she did not train that dog. As the dog's protective streak got worse, my grandma just kept her home in the house. The dog minded her when she was around, but had no restraint when she wasn't. <- One thing I remember after my grandma died and visiting the house with my dad was that dog came rushing out and would have attacked me if my dad hadn't stopped her. Because while she knew my dad, she didn't know me. I was only 6 or 7 at the time and that just really scared me about white shepherds for a while. Our one neighbor kept two white shepherds who sometimes got loose from their fenced in yard and I remember I was even terrified of going outside that summer because of them, even though they did not attack me the one time they chased me down my driveway. Understanding a little more now, I'll guess they chased me because I took off runnning when I saw them. :doh:

So just keeping dogs home without going to a trainer and without working on getting that dog out in public, including taking that dog out and carefully building up their confidence and restraint - it doesn't work and it's a sure bet you are going to ruin those dogs further.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I don't think anyone is arguing that reactive or even aggressive dogs should be kept restricted only to their houses, but that those dogs, as well as any other dogs should be under control and do not have the right to interfere with others reasonable expection of safety and quiet enjoyment of public spaces. And in situations where dogs are allowed in commercial spaces, I expect dogs to be well-mannered (either naturally or though remedial training).


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Selli-Belle said:


> I don't think anyone is arguing that reactive or even aggressive dogs should be kept restricted only to their houses, but that those dogs, as well as any other dogs should be under control and do not have the right to interfere with others reasonable expection of safety and quiet enjoyment of public spaces. And in situations where dogs are allowed in commercial spaces, I expect dogs to be well-mannered (either naturally or though remedial training).


Exactly<: 

But in order to get there, a lot of these dogs (even the ones in private training) need a lot of socialization and exposure. 

There is a huge difference between taking a dog to a facility where they are exposed to the same dogs or same people week after week and taking your dog to different places where they may get overstimulated or anxious. <- Once they can handle the private setting and the guidance of an instructor, you have to bump it up to going to parks or walks in areas where there are other people and dogs. Basically using people and their dogs as training props. 

And that does not mean practicing for the CGC test and doing approaches/handshakes/or letting the dogs sniff! Most people I know through class and other places who are working with "touchy" dogs usually try to keep space between their dogs and other people and their dogs. I'd say they do not want to get sued anymore than you want to get atacked.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I will state this as briefly as possible - any person being used to train a reactive dog must be informed beforehand and has the right to refuse to be used.

I should add, I already relinquished the streets, public parks, dog parks, public gardens. I now only take my dogs to dog activities where I know the other dogs, used to go to Petco but no more, training, doggy camp where everyone is evaluated, and private dog park affiliated with the doggy day camp.


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## Iggy987 (Oct 1, 2009)

A couple of points to consider:

1. I do not try to use other people and their dogs as props. I walk my reactive dog to train him,I do not know what is around the corner from us.I try to walk him in non peak times so he does not get exposed to more then he can handle. But I do not know who is out there and what we might encounter. I do not deliberately put us or anyone else in harms way.

2. My dog is not a robot.Just because we have reached a certain level(being able to walk by another dog without an above threshold reaction),does not mean that we will do that the next time.He has peaks and valleys,and some days are better than others. I always take that into account.

3. Please read the many works of Patricia McConnell. She is excellent in explaining the nuts and bolts of this type of training.

4.While I am always mindful of people and dogs around us,we need to be out working on our walks and there is no way to logistically schedule when the sidewalk is mine or yours.


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## elisabeth (May 3, 2010)

Iggy987 said:


> A couple of points to consider:
> 
> 1. I do not try to use other people and their dogs as props. I walk my reactive dog to train him,I do not know what is around the corner from us.I try to walk him in non peak times so he does not get exposed to more then he can handle. But I do not know who is out there and what we might encounter. I do not deliberately put us or anyone else in harms way.
> 
> ...



I am not going to respond anymore, because I think this is a loosing battle, no one will give or take on this issue, but I will say that your post was very well put.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Patricia McConnell writes often about being mindful of the stress on nonreactive dogs involved in this (important) work, and how well-chosen and watchfully monitored they must be for both the sake of the reactive dog and the helper dog(s). Obviously, it is a question of degree. Some dogs are too reactive for Petco, some dogs have made enough progress to venture forth without seriously distressing either themselves or other dogs. I do not mind using Tally and Finn to help (safely), but I do not want my pups Copley and Lush to encounter reactive dogs yet within a five foot rule. However, as long as no blood is shed, my sympathy goes to the reactive dog owner, and I can handle Lushie and Copley should a dog lung/ bark just fine and it is okay.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Just thought I weould post this article in response to those who feel "reactive" dogs need to be put away....I know that is a paraphrase...but if reactive dogs "arent allowed outside of their house according to some on here...then where would they go??? AND MORE IMPORTANTLY how would it be solved??

*Help! My On-Leash Dog Barks and Lunges
at Other Dogs!*

A Simple Guide to Understanding Your Dog in Canine Social Situations
by Kim Moeller
A high percentage of dogs tend to bark and/or lunge at other dogs while they are on leash. This is common for most dogs because they are very social animals and they want to approach and investigate other dogs. However, on a leash, they often do not have the freedom to approach and sniff. This can result in ON-LEASH FRUSTRATION, also known as BARRIER FRUSTRATION. Barrier frustration leads to excitement and agitation, which is displayed by barking, lunging, or growling.
Barking, Lunging, or growling is the canine equivalent of shouting, “AHHH! THIS LEASH IS SO TIGHT AND MY OWNER WON’T LET ME GO SEE MY DOGGY BUDDY!” Unfortunately, this reaction from a dog usually alarms his or her human companion, who may not let the dogs meet, and may become tense and angry at the dog. Dogs are very sensitive to their owner’s tension, frustration, and especially to any punishment they might receive from their owner. The dog then starts associating even the sight of other dogs with their human companion’s negative reactions, and eventually views other dogs as evil beings.
On-leash dogs may also bark at other dogs because they are under-socialized and therefore afraid of other dogs. To make matters worse, oftentimes when a dog barks at another dog, the other dog’s owner will lead his or her dog away, thereby reinforcing that if the dog barks, the other dog will go away.
In either case, barking, growling and lunging is not acceptable to the owner, or to the other dog’s owner. The following suggestions will help your on-leash dog be less frustrated:
Remain Calm and remember to use a happy tone when approaching other on-leash dogs even though you are on guard and aware. Be prepared to move away, even across the street, form the other dog. Keep the leash loose. If you seem tense or uneasy and yank on the leash, the dog will usually respond by barking.
Remain Calm and remember to use a happy tone when approaching other on-leash dogs even though you are on guard and aware. Be prepared to move away, even across the street, form the other dog. Keep the leash loose. If you seem tense or uneasy and yank on the leash, the dog will usually respond by barking.
Use a human training collar. A head collar like the “Gentle Leader” or “Halti” makes on-leash management much easier on the dog and human companion. Choke collars, pinch collars, and shock collars are designed to stop dogs from barking by causing pain. The dog might stop barking because it hurts, but this won’t decrease the dog’s frustration. In fact, the association with pain can cause the dog to DISLIKE other dogs and ultimately behave AGGRESSIVELY toward other dogs.
Play the “FIND IT!” game. Have a handful of yummy treats, tell your dog “Find it!” and throw a treat in front of the dog. Continue to say, “Find it!” and throw treats until you are safely past the other dog. This exercise distracts your dog from the other dogs by keeping him focused on treats. Instead of staring at the other dog, your dog’s eyes will be searching for treats. Eventually your dog will associate the sight of other dogs with yummy treats!
Make mealtime at night, after you and your dog retire for the evening. If you don’t feed your dog before leash walks, you’ll have a hungry dog who will be much more motivated to focus on you and the goodies in your treat bag!
Remember: Daily off-leash play helps reduce on-leash frustration (if your dog is friendly/social off-leash).


There are a ton of other articles....with a ton more information. A reactive dog shouldnt be shunned and hidden away. Frankly, as a dog loving community, it bothers me that it was even mentioned. Realistically...since there are so many reactive dogs....where should they go???


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Heres another that breaks it down further...

*What Is a Reactive Rover?*

Christine Hibbard, CTC, CPDT








One of the most commons calls we get at Companion Animal Solutions is from an owner whose dog barks, growls, and lunges at other dogs when on leash. Often, the owner is baffled because their dog loves playing with other dogs at the dog park or dog daycare. There are several reasons why dogs act so differently on leash than they do off leash. I thought it might be helpful to explore some of the more common reasons.
Dogs are highly social animals and when a dog sees another dog, they’re biologically programmed to head on over and investigate with a quick butt sniff. If a dog is on leash, their intense biological drive to investigate the other dog is being thwarted. This reaction is called *barrier frustration*. Even the most dog friendly dogs in the world are prone to barrier frustration around other dogs. In fact, the most difficult dogs to stay calm around for many dogs are other friendly dogs.







I worked with a Great Dane client who was enormous, black, and the belle of the ball at the dog park. In 2 years she had never gotten into the tiniest little scuffle at the dog park. How good was her dog/dog body language and manners?! When she was on leash and would see another dog in the distance (and I do mean distance), she would begin to whine and jump straight up into the air. In the beginning, I could walk her by another dog who was giving her hard eye or a dog who was ignoring her, but if the dog walking towards us started throwing play solicitation body language, look out! I call these dogs “Woo Hoo’ers” as in “Woo Hoo! I love other dogs so turn me loose to meet them!”
Some dogs react aggressively on leash because of *fear*. They’re afraid of other dogs. They react by barking, growling, snarling, and lunging at other dogs. This is just their way of saying “I’m not comfortable. You need to go away”. When a dog encounters a person or another dog they’re afraid of, they’ve got two choices; fight or flight. When the dog is on leash, we’ve taken away their flight option. It stands to reason that any dog is going to be more reactive with their flight option removed.







There’s another category of dog that it took me more experience to be able to identify. I call these dogs my *Anxious Woo Hoo’ers*. By in large, these dogs do just fine with other dogs off leash but they tend to be reactive in general and not super confident around other dogs. Not being confident around other dogs isn’t a problem until that pesky flight option is taken away. These dogs are highly conflicted. They’re super curious about the other dog but anxious at the same time. In my experience, these dogs are the quickest to react on leash towards another dog meaning they react at long distances. Often, it takes the longest amount of time to counter condition these dogs’ reaction.
We always have a Reactive Rover class going on at Companion Animal Solutions. Our classes are unique because of the one on one personalized attention each student receives and because we work outside where the problem is happening. If you’re interested in learning more about our Reactive Rover classes, check out the Companion Animal Solutions web site. If taking a class seems too inconvenient, we can always work with you privately on this problem behavior. Contact us and we can discuss which option is right for you and your dog.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> I have to weigh in and say that, though I participate in and value the rehabilitation of aggressive/reactive dogs, it is completely inappropriate to practice on the unsuspecting public. Trainers should be assisted by nonreactive dogs also handled by competent trainers with full consent all around. Owners of reactive dogs should at the very least observe the five foot rule, and realize that it is poor protocol/ practice to head out the door to socialize/ train without asking the other owner's permission.


 
At what point would you deem any dog "cured" and allowed out without a trainer. And how can a dog owner send "notice" to other dog owners to stay off the street. No matter when you go out, you may just run into the "unsuspecting public". Such a silly advice, honestly. The only statement I do agree with and that is a feasable option, is keeping the dog at a distance.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Jax's Mom said:


> At what point would you deem any dog "cured" and allowed out without a trainer. And how can a dog owner send "notice" to other dog owners to stay off the street. No matter when you go out, you may just run into the "unsuspecting public". Such a silly advice, honestly. The only statement I do agree with and that is a feasable option, is keeping the dog at a distance.


I don't see it as silly advice. It is very stressful to me and my dogs when a large dog is barely being held back while lunging aggressively at my dogs. I think what she's saying is that you need to get a dog past that type of reaction before you practice with him on people who aren't willingly a part of the exercise. I personally would be more than willing to use Jasper as the "stable" dog. He reads other dogs really well and knows how to let other dogs know he's not a threat.

I have almost been taken out by my dogs jumping away from a dog that suddenly lunged at them. The owners were oblivious that they had no control and a reactive dog in a public place. That's the biggest drawback to walking my dogs at the local park.

I'm basically addressing those folks who have no clue how to socialize their dogs and still think they need to be in a public place with other dogs (and I have had one of those dogs, but I did have complete control of her since she only weighed 35 lbs).



> * but if the dog walking towards us started throwing play solicitation body language, look out! I call these dogs “Woo Hoo’ers” as in “Woo Hoo! I love other dogs so turn me loose to meet them!”*


This is Danny to a T. I have had people tell me it's fine for him to meet their dogs and I have to explain that he is just too wide open for any but the most laid back, easy going dog. He's been growled at a few times by dogs whose owners said were very friendly. It's his greeting that makes them act that way.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I do know that you are dealing with Boone and some issues he has, but please don't take this whole thing personally. You did a wonderful thing rescuing Boone and are working to give him a better life. Nobody is saying he should never be allowed out in public, just that it's better to work with a trainer (or friend with a stable dog) until he's less reactive.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

The point is, that I do have a trainer. Although the first one isnt working out, we have another appt tomorrow with another one. It's difficult to see people make discouraging statements like this, especially since I would expect a dog loving community be more understanding. From what I read on the OP's initial post, the dogs were a safe distance. You cant expect an owner of reactive dogs to keep them indoors all the time. Its not possible and probably not in the dogs best interest. As long as the odgs were kept at a safe distance, isnt that enough? To get personal with my statements, we need to take Boone outside for exactly the reason he is reactive. He needs to get used to being walked alone and together on a lead. I could be working on his reactivity for another year inside our fence, so what am I to do? Leave him inside the fence until that time? Wouldnt that make his barrier reactivity even worse? Also, people that have trainers come in, do so once or twice a week. Does that mean the dog is never to practice his training until the next time the trainer comes? If you ask a trainer, I am pretty sure leash walking will be continued, especially here in the city. I dont have the luxury of a huge backyard, although we do take them back there. 

What I was doing , was searching the site for advice on barrier reactivity, which may be what Boone has. So in searching the forum for ideas, advice, I run across a thread that makes the situation seem like I should keep Boone locked up until he is "cured". Think about it from a visitors point of view...upon reading this, the situation seems pretty dismal. I've been on this forum long enough to realize different opnions chime in that arent necessarily fact based, and emotionally based on each persons set of circumstances. Words chosen on here dont just get seen by the individuals currently viewing, but are seen for a long time to come by people looking for help and advice. What I read from some peope on here is...Dont let your reactive dog outside without a trainer. Like most....I dont have the financial means to get a trainer here every day when he needs to get walked. I'm pretty sure most would agree that to not take a dog out until a trainer can come to walk him is absolutely ridiculous....not to mention impossible for some that have no yard at all. 

I wasnt going to respond on this thread, but the more I thought about it, the more I had to address it, not necesarily to respond to the individuals who made the comments, but to let others that are seeking help for a reactive dog know that the information posted here isnt necessarily what a trainer would advise.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I do totally understand and agree with you! You aren't going to let Boone charge a strange dog like the ones I deal with. I also know the frustration you are going through right now. Boone is in good hands with you and I commend you for all the work you are putting into him!

You do have to get a reactive dog out or the problems will increase over time. It happened to me, so I know it happens.


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