# Liver shunt....



## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

I have no advice to offer, but I'm so sorry to hear about this, for the sake of the puppy, the buyer and you. Such a shame to have this happen to such a young life. I did find some information on-line from a vet school.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Becky, this is an abnormal vessel which diverts blood from passing through the liver, which is a filter, and allows toxins to build up in the liver and causes neurological diseases, small liver, enlarged kidneys, and kidney or bladder stones. 
If the liver has not already started to atrophy, the shunt can be repaired surgically, and the dog can live a normal life if there are no complications during recovery.
It is either inherited or acquired, and Goldens are a breed considered to have a high occurrance. Some of the symptoms include loss of appetite, seizures, general weakness and malaise, excessive thirst and subsequent urination, and blindness. Pica, which is craving and eating odd, non-food items is sometimes seen. Dogs with liver shunts also cannot tolerate foods hign in protein.
It is usually seen in young puppies. 

I would ask if the pup has had an ultra-sound, and perhaps if she is in Michigan, rx MSU for a work-up and a second opinion before considering euthanasia. Many dogs have successfully undergone surgical treatment of a shunt, and maybe this puppy would be a good candidate. 

I understand your concern, these are the kinds of things that make being a breeder difficult.

Best wishes, and good luck to all of you.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I was going to pretty much post what PG said... we had a dog come in the rescue that had a liver shunt. He had surgery and is doing well...no problems what so ever. Just on special food.


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## Katiesmommy (Sep 10, 2006)

Wow Becky....My heart goes out to you and that family. I am so sorry.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Liver shunts are not always immediately fatal. 

You will definitely want to see the vet report, and show it to your vet. You may want to pay for a second opinion from a third vet as well.

Here is some information on liver shunts:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1578&articleid=882

http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/Diseases/cardiovascular diseases/portosystemic shunt.htm

As a breeder, I think there are a couple of options you can do, depending on the problem-if there will be large vet bills, I would refund the price of the puppy to help pay for the treatment. Hopefully, they took the free AKC pet insurance, and then continued it. If the puppy must be put down, I would give them a replacement puppy or a refund. If they have incurred huge vet bills, and the puppy must be put down, I would consider refunding their money and giving them a replacement puppy either free or at half price or less. If they don't want to keep the puppy, for fear of what the future holds, I would take the puppy back and give them the option of a refund or replacement.

I had a puppy several years ago with a liver shunt. It became noticeable when weaning began, as she lost appetite and weight, although she was always an active puppy. I have no idea what she used for energy.

There are apparently two kinds of liver shunts, one operable and one not (external vs internal, I believe). Hers was not operable, at least not at that time (probably about 15 years ago). The ones that are operable quite often have a good outcome.

Given the diagnosis, I knew I could not place her,and she had too much life and spunk to just put her down. Everyone just adored this tiny, tiny puppy though, and she was a real fighter 

I kept her and we did regular testing of her liver values as she grew. She had to be on a low protein food but did surprisingly well. As she grew, her liver values improved. They were never normal but they improved surprisingly well.

When she was about 12 months old, a very special home came along. They met Abby while she was being boarded at a friends house. Well, it was love at first sight on both sides and Abby soon went home to live with them. Her liver values had been stable for some time or I would not have considered this. I made them promise to love her and care for her properly, but not to take heroic measures, as her little body wouldn't be up to it. Abby lived to be 6 years old! They were very happy years for her and her new family.

So, it is not necessarily a death sentence but there are a lot of options to explore with the pup's family.

Good luck to you, the puppy and the pup's family.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

She is losing weight and has been pretty sick from what they tell me. They are in Michigan and their vet actually teaches at MSU, so I assume he knows what he is talking about. The vet quoted them $3000 for the surgery and they had an older dog that they spent a ton on and it didnt live. So they are pretty adamant about not wanting to put her through the surgery. 

PG or Tahnee, could it just be a simple birth defect or should I worry about breeding the pair again?

I told them if the decision was made to put her down, I would definitely give them a puppy from a different parent, or if they chose to not take a pup, refund their $.

PS, thanks for all of the input. I am pretty upset as this is my first health issue with any of my litters.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

telsmith1 said:


> She is losing weight and has been pretty sick from what they tell me. They are in Michigan and their vet actually teaches at MSU, so I assume he knows what he is talking about. The vet quoted them $3000 for the surgery and they had an older dog that they spent a ton on and it didnt live. So they are pretty adamant about not wanting to put her through the surgery. PG, could it just be a simple birth defect or should I worry about breeding the pair again?


I'm sorry for them, and you. I would want to talk with the vet to see what kind of surgical candidate that he thinks she is, and then make your decision. If he thinks the prognosis is good, and you can afford it, consider it carefully. Of course, offer either a replacement puppy or a refund to the buyers. 
Becky, is this the only breeding of the sire and dam to each other? The cause of PSS is not known, and can be inherited OR acquired, but I do not know that there is anyway to tell which it is. Obviously, if you see it in repeat breedings you can assume that it is inherited. I also do not know how it presents in later generations, so if it were me, I would be thinking twice about rebreeding them.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

It sure sounds like they have a good vet. I can understand their concern over the cost of the surgery, but the outcome would likely be much different than with their older dog. OTOH, I have spent several thousands of dollars in the past, went the extra mile, and have lost my dogs in the end. It is emotionally as well as financially draining.

My vet told me that Abby's was a birth defect (congenital) but not inherited. I have never produced another liver shunt, nor have any of my grandpups, etc. I am not sure of the current thinking on this however.

I did not repeat the breeding, as I almost always use outside studs,for very specific reasons, and I got the puppy I wanted out of that one breeding. However, I did have an accidental breeding between this bitch (Abby's mom) and her brother, which produced 9 puppies :-( All were very healthy, no shunts, dysplasia, etc.

I know how awful this feels, but sometimes bad things just happen.........................


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

I'm so sorry Becky. I know how much it must hurt. Sometimes you have to wonder why people want to be hobby breeders.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

I'm sorry to hear this Becky. But I think you are doing a great job handling it. It's obviously not an easy thing to deal with, but if you are showing even half the concern to the owners as you are to us, you are helping them.


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

Sorry to hear about the pup, wish all the breeder's would be as concerned as you are.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

UPDATE

So, I got some of the vet records from this puppy. Nothing was done except bloodwork and that was done Tuesday. It is showing liver failure, but their vet has no conclusive evidence that it is a liver shunt. The vet also had the owner giving the puppy kaopectate, baby aspirin and gas-x which accoring to my vet can cause liver failure. Needless to say, the puppy is dying, my vet said at this point the liver is too damaged to survive according to the blood results. She is being put down and I am sending their money back due to the fact that I do not want them to have another of my puppies (in case they caused this with the medication they were giving). Have I done the right thing?


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

We had Belle our Lab tested for a liver shunt. She didn't have one. I was not told about surgical costs but I was lead to believe it is not a bad surgery to go through with. The part that was bad was the "unpurified" blood returning to the heart. 

I am so sorry for the dx. Decisions like this are hard to make. You have to trust your vet and your heart. Hugs to all.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

telsmith1 said:


> UPDATE
> 
> So, I got some of the vet records from this puppy. Nothing was done except bloodwork and that was done Tuesday. It is showing liver failure, but their vet has no conclusive evidence that it is a liver shunt. The vet also had the owner giving the puppy kaopectate, baby aspirin and gas-x which accoring to my vet can cause liver failure. Needless to say, the puppy is dying, my vet said at this point the liver is too damaged to survive according to the blood results. She is being put down and I am sending their money back due to the fact that I do not want them to have another of my puppies (in case they caused this with the medication they were giving). Have I done the right thing?


Yes you have done the right thing! I live in MI too. Perhaps when I need another Golden if you have a litter you and I can talk. I want a responsible breeder with my next pup. I made mistakes when I picked out Teddi, but I learned from them, and I do not regret having Teddi. I just wish I could be sure the breeders never breed her parents again. 

I agree it does not sound like a puppy problem, no owner should medicate like that. I wonder what they were giving all that stuff for?


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

Why in the world would the vet have those people giving their little puppy all those medications? I'm so sorry for the baby dog, and for you. I think you are handling this unfortunate situation very responsibly. Godspeed, little pup.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I am so sorry for the puppy and agree that giving their money back is the best solution. They should have never given those meds to the puppy without their vets permission. And if their vet gave that information then shame on him. They dont deserve another puppy. Run free sweet puppy free of pain.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

BeauShel said:


> I am so sorry for the puppy and agree that giving their money back is the best solution. They should have never given those meds to the puppy without their vets permission. And if their vet gave that information then shame on him. They dont deserve another puppy. Run free sweet puppy free of pain.



Per the owner, the vet told them to give those medications. I told her to find a new vet.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Yes, you did the right thing. Poor baby. I am so sorry Beckie for you, the puppy and the owners.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I am so sorry and sad for you and the poor puppy. That vet is at the vet school? That is VERY scary!!!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Beckie,

Was it the combo of all the meds that your vet felt could cause liver failure? All three of those medications are listed on various sites for use with puppies (with veterinary supervision, of course), and are relatively common remedies. I have never heard of any of them causing problems when used as prescribed.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Becky, I'm sorry. And I believe that you have made the right decision. 

I am confused as to why the owners were giving the puppy the meds that you indicated - was it to treat symptoms of something else that was going on? And did their vet actually advise them to do this? If it was on their vet's advice, you might think twice about not wanting them to get another pup from you. I assume that you originally felt them to be a good home, and if that is the case, perhaps if they were to use another vet they would indeed be a good home. Many people put blind faith in their vets (and physicians as well) simply because they do no know any better. 

If this vet did prescribe the use of the mentioned OTC products, I would be talking to HIM, armed with information about the probability of the puppy's problems being a result of their use, and hold HIM responsible.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

Oh, that poor baby. This is horrible.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

telsmith1 said:


> What can anyone tell me about liver shunts in puppies? I had a puppy buyer from my last litter call and tell me that her puppy has been diagnosed with one and the vet recommnded that she be put down. I told her I wanted to see the paperwork from the vet and that of course I would give her a replacement puppy if it came to that, but what else should I be asking or doing?
> 
> The pup is 4 months old by the way...


Poor puppy- so sorry to hear.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> Beckie,
> 
> Was it the combo of all the meds that your vet felt could cause liver failure? All three of those medications are listed on various sites for use with puppies (with veterinary supervision, of course), and are relatively common remedies. I have never heard of any of them causing problems when used as prescribed.


 
They are fairly common remedies, yes. But, using them in combination with a puppy with an already compromised liver could be an issue. Kaopectate contains salicylic acid (a metabolite of aspirin). Add to that baby aspirin, and Gas-X (I don't know which formula - but the active ingredient is symethicone) and that could have caused bleeding.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> They are fairly common remedies, yes. But, using them in combination with a puppy with an already compromised liver could be an issue. Kaopectate contains salicylic acid (a metabolite of aspirin). Add to that baby aspirin, and Gas-X (I don't know which formula - but the active ingredient is symethicone) and that could have caused bleeding.


Thanks for explaining that PG


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Thanks, PG. I have never had to use medications like that on a young puppy and will file that away just in case (hopefully never).


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

That is a lot of medication. And they are recommended for short term use not long term use. 

I'm sorry for the loss but I think you are doing the right thing. If they were to come back having learned a few things such as learning to get a second opinion. And if they have switched vets, they might still make a good home.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

You have been in my thoughts, and I am so sorry about the situation. Is the pup's family feeling as though giving all those OC drugs with overlapping S Acid the cause of the pup's sickness, and actively addressing their vet? What a tragic thing for a small baby puppy with all of life ahead. Even if they still have potential to be a great home, I would not blame you for feeling averse to giving them a new pup. I don't know if I could be that big a person.


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## Hudson (May 18, 2005)

Sorry for this tragic situation,and it is wonderful to see your concern and genuine care for this poor little puppy.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Ah Becky I am so sorry for the loss of your little baby. My thought are with you the puppy and the poor owners. Such a loss.Godspeed little one.


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## Katiesmommy (Sep 10, 2006)

This still shocks me. I'm not sure what litter this puppy was from. We have a Jake & Dixie litter and Katie has no health concerns/problems. My thoughts are still with you Becky, your family and the puppy's owner


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm so sorry...


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Katiesmommy said:


> This still shocks me. I'm not sure what litter this puppy was from. We have a Jake & Dixie litter and Katie has no health concerns/problems. My thoughts are still with you Becky, your family and the puppy's owner



Amy,

It is a Nana puppy.


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