# Articles are boring Scout...



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

..so I would love creative ideas to make them more challenging and fun. 

While I am pleased that she has picked this exercise (which used to be intimidating for me to train) up so fast, the consequence has been a dog that acts rather lazy and bored when sent to the pile. 

We are working a full pile with some tied down and some not. I have had other people scent them--I have been practicing on grass and inside. She always gets it right, but she often meanders away from the pile or walks out there slowly. I don't want her to practice this lazy habit and have been trying to only reward with food when it is really really good. (I guess this is the challenge of having a smart dog--training is just a lazy walk in the park).

Also, I was wondering if it is a problem if the dog finds the article and brings it back without sniffing all of them first.

Anyway, I would love ideas on how I can make this more fun/challenging!


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

hmmmnn... That is crazy because Titan is just wild about articles and he picked them up really quick too.. In fact I normally have to slow him down on the turn. I would love to see what others will say..if I can ever figure out how to link a flipvideo I will link a not so great run in UB 197 and a nice run in OB 199 1/2.
Have to tried to work the pile on a flexi lead?That way you control the speed back to you.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

All I can say is do NOT let her get away with it, or you will have what I have with Tito right now....he charges out, gets the article, then wanders back in.
Will be interested in hearing responses, too.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

What are you doing when she does these things? If she did those things on a regular retrieve how would you handle it?

Personally if the dog brings back the correct article I'm fine with however they found it. Some dogs don't ever have to sniff at all they just air scent. 

Sounds like a fun discussion - my sister decided to get married this morning so I'm off to the court house (she's crazy) but I look forward to coming back into this. I'll share more about what I do when I come back.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> All I can say is do NOT let her get away with it, or you will have what I have with Tito right now....he charges out, gets the article, then wanders back in.
> Will be interested in hearing responses, too.


Have you tried using a Flexi to speed him up?
Michelle


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Well I just got a phone call that the ceremony has been pushed back 20 minutes since the groom still has to take a shower. LOL, this is insane. Anyways......now I have time to finish my answer 

For most problems with articles I don't treat it as a scenting problem, I treat it as a retrieving problem. Every one of my dogs have been ear pinched towards in the pile at some point. If the dog has been properly force fetched then this correction should get the dog moving out with determination next time. 

Another thing that helps my dogs move faster (both there and back) is to have a total party when they return with the right article. Not just a treat or a good boy, but a total jump up and down ,scratch your butt(dogs not yours , roll on the floor type party. For a dog that doesn't find articles intrinsically rewarding, this helps give them the excitement to run out there and run back. But the key is the party doesn't start until the dog is back to you, not when they pick up the article.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

To be honest--I have not done anything about it yet because I am not sure what to do. She picked this up fast, and I am leery of correcting her in case my assumption that she understands the exercise is wrong (because she has only been at it for like 3 weeks?). The only time I have done something is if she wanders really far from the pile and is not even sniffing anymore.

On a regular retrieve if she does not pick up the dumbbell right away (sniffing, walking past it, etc) she will get an ear pinch.

I have been working her on a flexi so that I can control her and send her from a distance. I was a bit discouraged when I took her to a private lesson recently and she put forth no effort in finding the right article. Instead she wanted to chomp on the flowers, sniff around, etc, etc. I can understand her not being as good in a new setting, but to not even try....*sigh*

So, yeah. I am not against correcting, but I would also love to find ways to make it more fun/exciting/motivating to balance that all out. I really think she thinks this exercise is boring and not worth her effort even for food. (Again, she is food motivated but not exceptionally so and I only give it to her when the effort or execution is good).


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The little $hit only does it in shows......




Titan1 said:


> Have you tried using a Flexi to speed him up?
> Michelle


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Have you considered her avoidance as a possible stress reaction?
<this coming from one that has not begun articles yet :curtain:>


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> The little $hit only does it in shows......


Oh okay.. That makes it different then. Are you training field (bumpers?) Do you say anything to him in practice/ run through's that you don't in the ring? Or is the stress level the only thing different? Do you have someone stand by the articles when you are practicing? Interesting!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, we are training field, bumpers and birds, but this pre-dates the field training. 
I don't think I say/do anything different in training or run-thrus, not that I'm aware of. I have practiced a lot in training with someone standing right over the pile, sometimes more than one person, and sometimes with their dogs, too. He's fine. 
So the stress level (mine!) is the only thing that I can think of that's different. 
The thing that is SO weird is he trots out happy as can be, works the pile diligently and without worry, and then picks up the article and DRAGS his butt back with it like he's at death's door.
I have never corrected him for articles, not in any way. He learned by the tie-down method.
I'm at a loss.




Titan1 said:


> Oh okay.. That makes it different then. Are you training field (bumpers?) Do you say anything to him in practice/ run through's that you don't in the ring? Or is the stress level the only thing different? Do you have someone stand by the articles when you are practicing? Interesting!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

No, I am quite certain she is not stressed. When I first started teaching her I didn't really have this problem, it kind of has developed and I think it is largely because she 'gets' it now and thinks it is boring. We have been practicing about 1-2 a day since I heard when you teach articles you need to be diligent about it to be fair to the dog....maybe I shouldn't train it almost every day anymore.

I definitely could make it more fun and rev her up when she gets back or on the way back but that generally just creates another problem. Then she gets too excited and happy and she will shake and mouth the dumbbell like a toy.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Uhh, yeah, quit training 2x a day. She is bored. 
Goldens have this funny thing where, once they get it, asking them to do it again and again ---- they say, well I JUST DID IT RIGHT -- why are you making me do it again??!!!?? Now from day to day they are very consistent, but within the same lesson or session, repeating the same thing is rarely fruitful. 
Practice articles every other day instead.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Alright, I'm home for the night, I have time to add some more now. I'm just going to tell you guys some ideas that I would do, take or leave whatever you like.

First of all for Scout, I still would correct for lack of retrieve if she meanders away from the pile. I would not avoid getting her too excited, that is just avoiding the problem, instead take the articles away from the pile and work on her holding correctly while excited. Then once she has learned she can still hold an article the right way even if she's really up, you can add that excitement into the the exercise.

Some other ideas I've seen to liven up articles: scent your article but don't put it in a pile. Instead pivot and and as soon as you're done with the pivot throw the article out like a retrieve and send the dog for it. Mix it up so that the dog never knows if after the pivot it's going to be running for a regular retrieve or a scent excercise.

When the dog comes back with the correct article and you take the article and praise, throw the article back out (away from the pile) for it to retrieve. Nothing formal about it, make it a game. Very similar to a "fun bumper" or "happy bumper" in field work.

Barb, here's some ideas you could try for Tito. It might be worth a try to put him on a flexi shortly before he goes into the ring at the show site so you can give him a reminder right before he goes in. I _always _do an warm-up set of articles before we go in the ring, usually about 20-30 minutes before we go in.

An idea if you can get to any kind of match or show and go: have the person playing judge follow Tito in and kind of gently step on/kick his back legs - kind of like a shuffle step into them (or you could try having them goose him) as soon as he picks up the article and starts to return. The great idea behind this is you will have a person standing there in the real ring, one that the dog never knows when they might decide to chase him in.

If all else fails, you could give him a "come" command in the ring and then praise as soon as he gets to front. I know you are going for UDX legs so it wouldn't be worth it for you to do it if he's passing, but if you're at a trial where he's already NQ'd something it could be worth a shot. Some dogs just need to be told that the same standards really are being held in the ring as in practice.

And to give credit where it is due, a couple of the ideas in this post are mine, but the majority are ideas I've picked up over the years from Debby Quigley.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Jodie, I've tried those already. When he's NQ'd I look right at the judge and say, "I'm going to get my money's worth" and then on the articles I give him a really stern COME COME COME. It wakes him right up and he's okay. 
And this one blows everyone's mind....you can goose Tito and he won't even respond. Won't even flinch. Or move. You can even pinch his butt pretty hard and he doesn't even respond.
The dog has no nerve endings.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Thanks Jodie, I've tried those already. When he's NQ'd I look right at the judge and say, "I'm going to get my money's worth" and then on the articles I give him a really stern COME COME COME. It wakes him right up and he's okay.
> And this one blows everyone's mind....you can goose Tito and he won't even respond. Won't even flinch. Or move. You can even pinch his butt pretty hard and he doesn't even respond.
> The dog has no nerve endings.


Bridget addressed this in the seminar. But to be honest I don't remember what she said. She videotaped the first day of the seminar and I ordered it so once I get it you can borrow it. I wish you could have been there. The first day was how to motivate your dog. And motivate she does.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Thanks Jodie, I've tried those already. .


hmmmm....does he enjoy jumping up to do a retrieve from your hand? If so, then after the judge says exercise finished you could have him jump up and grab the article. It's not something that would be a miracle quick fix, but if done consistently it would give him a little bit of reasoning to enjoy getting back. I do this with gloves.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I really wish I could have gone as well. SOOO busy here at the pet hotel right now. 

I would love to borrow the tape, thanks. I so enjoy watching her and her dogs in the ring, they are among the happiest dogs I've ever seen showing.

Remember when Tito was doing slow recalls and we had Fred boot him in the rear to speed him up? Fred had to laugh, it was as if Tito didn't even notice that he'd just been booted in the rump. 

Talk about a non-reactive dog!




my4goldens said:


> Bridget addressed this in the seminar. But to be honest I don't remember what she said. She videotaped the first day of the seminar and I ordered it so once I get it you can borrow it. I wish you could have been there. The first day was how to motivate your dog. And motivate she does.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I haven't tried that yet, but since I read about the gloves on the group you suggested I thought it was a good idea and I'm going to do it with the gloves next time we show. I did it with the gloves in training yesterday and he really liked it.
Hadn't thought about extending it to the article, don't see any reason why I couldn't, though. Great idea!!

It also might help Scout enjoy the articles a little more!!




Loisiana said:


> hmmmm....does he enjoy jumping up to do a retrieve from your hand? If so, then after the judge says exercise finished you could have him jump up and grab the article. It's not something that would be a miracle quick fix, but if done consistently it would give him a little bit of reasoning to enjoy getting back. I do this with gloves.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> hmmmm....does he enjoy jumping up to do a retrieve from your hand? If so, then after the judge says exercise finished you could have him jump up and grab the article. It's not something that would be a miracle quick fix, but if done consistently it would give him a little bit of reasoning to enjoy getting back. I do this with gloves.



CUTE IDEA!!! Love it


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks for the posts they were all good things I need to do!

Loisiana--I am still trying to wrap my mind around teaching her not to mouth the dumbbell while playing and being excited at the same time. It sounds like an interesting challenge  I never worried about upping her excitement level on any exercises but this one...off to training!


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

We are doing articles with Casey big time this summer. He goes out to find them with great attitude (love this exercise), finds the article, then ...saunters slowly back in.
My coach has given me these suggestions:

*do not do anything at the pile or during the exercise...they can quickly learn to anticipate your reaction and wait for it

*work on retrieves and getting him to get back to you quickly...say "COME!) as soon as he touches the item you have thrown. Do *not* do this when at the article pile.

*reward copiously when he brings the correct article back to you...make it worth his while to get there in a hurry

***throw an article for a retrieve when NOT working on articles. Encourage him to bring it back as quickly as possible.

These are the things we are working on for the next while in order to make his retrieval of the article more enthusiastic/prompt. Hope this helps for you too.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom said:


> *reward copiously when he brings the correct article back to you...make it worth his while to get there in a hurry


Ahhh...but if he returning slowly and you have a party when he finally gets there....what are you rewarding?? THE SLOW RETURN. 
If you do nothing while he performs the wrong behavior (returning slowly) and then praise enthusiastically for doing this behavior, why on earth would he change what he's doing?
Instead have a praise party when he RETURNS QUICKLY.
How to get him to return quickly if a slow return is habit? MAKE HIM SPEED UP. 
I realize in articles -- if you praise immediately after the dog picks up the right article -- you think it's praise or excitement to get them to return quickly but the dog may interpret that as permission or approval of the selected article. Then they wait until you praise before returning. This makes for a dog who picks up an article then stares at you. Not good.
Instead of using your voice to speed him up -- use a flexi. Say nothing but pop and make him speed up once he has committed to returning to you. THEN have the praise party! You just got him to do the exact behavior you wanted, without relying on you to do the work. 

Now --- this is new to me too -- but I have had the exact problem as the others with slow returns from articles. I have started training with a flexi and my concern of the dog worried about the flexi while working the pile turned out to be not a big deal.

I think it was Barb who said Tito would not go out to the pile if he is on a flexi? Again -- that is a failure to retrieve and should be treated as such. Do you play games where you throw food or a toy and the dog must drag you (attached to a leash) to the food? Or drag you to the dumbell? Or drag you to the go out spot?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I hadn't thought of it as rewarding the slow return, but you are exactly right. I need to chew on that for a while.
It was in fact me that said Tito won't work on a flexi. But I have since figured out he will work on a long light line. If I hadn't left it by the pond today.....




K9-Design said:


> Ahhh...but if he returning slowly and you have a party when he finally gets there....what are you rewarding?? THE SLOW RETURN.
> If you do nothing while he performs the wrong behavior (returning slowly) and then praise enthusiastically for doing this behavior, why on earth would he change what he's doing?
> Instead have a praise party when he RETURNS QUICKLY.
> How to get him to return quickly if a slow return is habit? MAKE HIM SPEED UP.
> ...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I occasionally work Conner on a flexi _because_ it causes him to be a little stressy. He will often freeze up or go very slowly with articles if he's wearing a flexi - things I don't often get in training. So when he struggles I can help him out and show him that he _can_ still do it with a flexi, which is showing him how to work through stress. No it's not the same stress of being in a trial, but it still shows him that it's possible to work and work happily even when he's in an uncomfortable position. And he is so proud of himself when he gets it right following that.

I bet nobody could guess which one of my dogs could care less if he's got a flexi on :uhoh:


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I never thought of the flexi as being a big deal! I have discovered it is an awesome training tool especially if you want to practice certain things in a larger park which requires dogs to be on-leash but is great for distractions. I love using it for retrieves, articles, broad jump, go-outs, recalls--mine isn't quite lone enough for doing drop on recall though.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I made the mistake of never working Tito on a flexi unless there was a problem we needed to work thru, and now he associates the flexi with a problem. Which is funny, because he's perfectly willing to wear it outside at a dog show, etc. to play with a tennis ball or bumper just to kill time.
Dang dogs are just too smart sometimes.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

I taught most things on a flexi and it is also what we use to go for walks ect. It is a great tool for helping without being a big deal. My dog also could care less if he has a flexi on or not! LOL!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> I made the mistake of never working Tito on a flexi unless there was a problem we needed to work thru, and now he associates the flexi with a problem. Which is funny, because he's perfectly willing to wear it outside at a dog show, etc. to play with a tennis ball or bumper just to kill time.
> Dang dogs are just too smart sometimes.


Start with just doing recalls (novice recalls) with the flexi. This is what I did with Fisher and I was amazed at how much better he got with coming in FAST. It is come-POP. He LEAPS out of his seat to do a recall now. So I started with that, then did it with the dumbell, then an article, and a glove. (Funny thing was I got the biggest difference with the glove, never knew that he was goofing off so much and dilly-dallying with the glove until I expected a snappy response.) 

Also play games where you throw a big hunk of food and he has to literally drag you to the food. Then do it with a toy (stuffed toy, ball, whatever), then do it with the dumbell or glove or article. Call it resistance training! You're actively teaching him to really drive for it.

I didn't know anything about all these little games and such when I first started, I wish I had!!! Luckily Fisher was the kind of dog who could take a lot of repetition...because that's all I knew to do. Now we're going back and adding in a lot of motivational stuff and it's really helping.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Some great ideas here Anney, thanks. I really like the resistance training idea.
One thing I will sometimes do with Tito is just hold his collar before sending him, and say "ready? ready? ready?" several times. As soon as I release the collar, he charges. So I guess a form of resistance.
The only problem is coming in slowly on the articles, but recently I've seen a trend of it showing signs of spreading to other things. With 7 UDX legs yet to go, that concerns me.....
I had a long talk with my field trainer about it, and got some ideas from him, too.




K9-Design said:


> Start with just doing recalls (novice recalls) with the flexi. This is what I did with Fisher and I was amazed at how much better he got with coming in FAST. It is come-POP. He LEAPS out of his seat to do a recall now. So I started with that, then did it with the dumbell, then an article, and a glove. (Funny thing was I got the biggest difference with the glove, never knew that he was goofing off so much and dilly-dallying with the glove until I expected a snappy response.)
> 
> Also play games where you throw a big hunk of food and he has to literally drag you to the food. Then do it with a toy (stuffed toy, ball, whatever), then do it with the dumbell or glove or article. Call it resistance training! You're actively teaching him to really drive for it.
> 
> I didn't know anything about all these little games and such when I first started, I wish I had!!! Luckily Fisher was the kind of dog who could take a lot of repetition...because that's all I knew to do. Now we're going back and adding in a lot of motivational stuff and it's really helping.


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