# "Miniature Golden Retrievers"



## MyMaggieGirl

Does this have puppy mill written all over it? http://www.miniaturegoldenretriever.net/index.html

Anyone hear of this before?


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## kaysy

"Tax return sale"!!!?? Pretty sick.


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## Loisiana

I wonder if some of these customers even realize that these "miniature goldens" aren't purebred goldens, but 25% cocker spaniel.And get a load of the comment she makes about hoping other breeders use the best quality stock for their breedings. Anyone looking for a sheltiedoodle?


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## tonisaysss

this makes my stomach turn.


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## fostermom

Absolutely disgusting! From what I can read on the home page (what's with all the bright colored lettering?), they have several litters, some of which are now 12 weeks old. On their SALE!!!! page, they have a golden doodle that they are selling for $850 who is a "fairly nice pet" who is "stranger shy". They are done breeding her. She must not have pumped out enough puppies. 

Oh, and the "miniature" golden puppy on the SALE!!!!! page has a white spot on her forehead and a white muzzle with freckles....


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## tonisaysss

"*My hearts desire is not only to have a dog "look" like a golden but to essentially "be" golden in every sense of the word. Looks, temperament, disposition, personality.....only lacking in size and in health issues."

*wow.


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## fostermom

She also has the hybrid vigor fallacy posted on her very hard to read website. I had to stop reading because the colors were horrible on my eyes.


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## GoldenSail

Sheltiedoodle? :--keep_silent:
I think I am going to gag....


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## Pointgold

I am not even going to look. Seriously. I don't need yet another thread in which my breeding philosphies need to be defended/justified. 

The internet is rife with this kind of thing. It is beyond disturbing to those of us who are passionate about maintaining and bettering the purebred dog and who consider it a privelege and a responsibility to breed the best that we possibly can. :no:


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## tonisaysss

i sent her an email for kicks because i was curious. i was polite.

this is what i received:

"Hello! What an unpleasant surprise to hear from you guys as always! :O) 

You guys are from the batch of unbalanced folks that put dogs before people right? Oh and the ones that are totally fine with people breeding the "pure" (by the way the purebred came from breeders "mixing" until it became pure......remember the days?) bred dog as long as it is pure bred.......Right. So we have giant, 120 lb goldens........90 lb goldens.......can you say bad hips and elbows anyone? Oh or should we talk about teperament and disposition.....do you know how many "pure" bred registered GOLDENS I have had to sort through just to find some suitable to be bred for my miniatures? Do we want to talk about the pure bred/inbred goldens? Do we want to talk about how they are DOG aggressive? Do we want to talk about how some states (like CA I hear) are considering the golden retriever to be at high risk for biting people? Pull your heads out of the sand! Wake up and realize that MANY people have totally flooded the market with "pure" bred crap! Then they sell them to brokers, puppies on the street for $250 or less....


So really......you think about it just for a minute......am "I" the one you want to keep blaming for your little "groups" problems?


"I" am sorting and building from only the good traits that the early goldens had. I sell my puppies as penthouse pets.....ON a spay/neuter contract which as you know greatly minimizes them ever being bred. So, why not look into cleaning your OWN house before trying to fix someone else?


Best of luck with that!


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## Pointgold

Oh God. It just gets better and better, doesn't it...:doh:


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## Loisiana

Seems that those who get the most defensive have the most reason to be...


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## tonisaysss

i probably should not have emailed her, but i was genuinely curious about sheltiedoodles! 

that, and nothing is more fulfilling than toying with someone so uninformed and belligerent when you're bored. 

i don't mean to anger anyone. she's obviously a very frustrated woman.


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## GoldenSail

Ok, so there is this saying that mutts are healthier than purebreds. Does anyone know where the comes from? I can't imagine they are healthier than purebreds that are bred carefully. I can see them possibly being healthier (or appearing to be) than BYB purebreds though...


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## Adriennelane

I was just explaining again to my husband what a horrible racket designer dogs are. His mom told him on the phone that her vet has a labradoodle, and how it was the calmest dog she'd ever seen. I had to explain again the difference in Dory, who we adopted and rescued, and paying out the ears for a designer hybrid dog from a probable puppy mill.


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## tonisaysss

GoldenSail said:


> Ok, so there is this saying that mutts are healthier than purebreds. Does anyone know where the comes from? I can't imagine they are healthier than purebreds that are bred carefully. I can see them possibly being healthier (or appearing to be) than BYB purebreds though...


correct me if i'm wrong, but i think anyone who mixes two breeds (especially with such a vast size difference?) - no matter how careful - is as negligent if not more than any BYB?

the only defense she seems to think she holds is that her smaller dogs = less hip/joint issues. i don't even know how accurate that is.


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## kaysy

Kind of feisty..huh?


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## stanfield

I think I've heard that dogs that aren't purebred just tend to have less genetic defects passed down. for example certain breeds are more susceptible to cancer or hip problems. I own a "designer" dog so I can't judge a person who breeds them but, what stands out to me is when a person is breeding several different kinds. In my opinion if a breeder is in for the right reasons, they would focus on one breed or one specific hybrid. I mean, how can they really be focused on improving a breed, when they offer 10 different kinds of dogs.

Does anyone else agree/disagree?


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## tonisaysss

stanfield said:


> I think I've heard that dogs that aren't purebred just tend to have less genetic defects passed down. for example certain breeds are more susceptible to cancer or hip problems. I own a "designer" dog so I can't judge a person who breeds them but, what stands out to me is when a person is breeding several different kinds. In my opinion if a breeder is in for the right reasons, they would focus on one breed or one specific hybrid. I mean, how can they really be focused on improving a breed, when they offer 10 different kinds of dogs.
> 
> Does anyone else agree/disagree?


these dogs aren't hybrids, they're mutts. i can possibly agree to an extent regarding less genetic defects being passed. it also falls with logic, not so much the breeds being bred; larger dogs are prone to dysplasia so smaller combination would be less likely to experience that issue which is truly the only point she may have going for her concoction of animals.

my main issue with designer breeds simply put is that they are mutts. they are $900-$1000 mutts. i find breeding these animals for such prices to be so horribly disrespectful considering all of the animals being killed in shelters and those in foster homes. that's just my opinion, however.


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## fostermom

Hybrids are the crossing of species, not breeds. People like to use hybrid vigor to support mixing breeds, but it doesn't apply to dogs. Unless you are breeding the dog to a wolf or a fox.


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## MyMaggieGirl

Tonysayssss, her response to you was exactly the same response as she sent to someone on my Yahoo email group who emailed her. Must be her stock answer.

I just think this is horrible. Poor dogs, and poor people who spend all their money on these pups. The one is being sold for a reduced price because it's color wasn't right. For a mixed breed???


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## tonisaysss

MyMaggieGirl said:


> Tonysayssss, her response to you was exactly the same response as she sent to someone on my Yahoo email group who emailed her. Must be her stock answer.
> 
> I just think this is horrible. Poor dogs, and poor people who spend all their money on these pups. The one is being sold for a reduced price because it's color wasn't right. For a mixed breed???


oh... drats. i assumed as much when she hit on the "you value dogs more than people!" thing. how unfortunate.


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## Pointgold

People rarely if ever necrospsy mutts who have died, nor do the do any health clearances. How on earth can they say with any accuracy that their dogs did not have HD/ED, SAS, eye problems, etc etc etc?

Further, the crossing of two breeds that are known to have health issues does NOT negate those health issues from occuring.

And, a "hybrid" is the result of a cross between 2 SPECIES, _not _2 breeds.


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## Nicole74

I'm so sorry I clicked on that link. Now I sit here and I am disgusted at their website. It truly looks like the lines of a puppy mill. They breed for profit only. So sad.


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## MyMaggieGirl

Sorry that I got everyone fired up about this but I had to share, just because I am fired up about it. 

Shame on her for making a profit from unknowing people.


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## fostermom

Pointgold said:


> And, a "hybrid" is the result of a cross between 2 SPECIES, _not _2 breeds.


LOL, beat you to it!


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## stanfield

oh. I never knew that before. So it really is just a mix. I think it depends on the mix you choose. One of my dogs is a Yorkie Poodle cross and he was only $450 as opposed to the $1200 - $2500 breeders want for a AKC Yorkie. Some purebred dogs are much more expensive. I'm sure that's why adoption is a route for people but sometimes, those people aren't prepared for a dog that could have emotional problems or a hard time adjusting from kennel life.


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## goldensmum

Have seen an advert today for a Golden crossed with a Cocker Spaniel advertised as a "Rare Find".

Whilst the public continue to buy these so called designer breeds or whatever other label you want to give them then the dogs will continue to be expoited, and the so called breeders will continue to rub their hands with glee as the money is handed over.


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## Pointgold

stanfield said:


> oh. I never knew that before. So it really is just a mix. I think it depends on the mix you choose. One of my dogs is a Yorkie Poodle cross and he was only $450 as opposed to the $1200 - $2500 breeders want for a AKC Yorkie. Some purebred dogs are much more expensive.


 
Not any more...now that cutsie names are the big thing, you have a YorkiePoo and some "breeders" are selling them for a couple of grand. Usually, people are paying much MORE for one of these "designer" mutts than they would pay for a purebred.


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## fostermom

stanfield said:


> oh. I never knew that before. So it really is just a mix. I think it depends on the mix you choose. One of my dogs is a Yorkie Poodle cross and he was only $450 as opposed to the $1200 - $2500 breeders want for a AKC Yorkie. Some purebred dogs are much more expensive.  I'm sure that's why adoption is a route for people but sometimes, those people aren't prepared for a dog that could have emotional problems or a hard time adjusting from kennel life.


I'm not sure I understand you. Do you think that dogs in rescue come from kennels? I think the majority of them come from shelters or are owner surrendered (though small breed, highly desirable dogs may come from different backgrounds than the dogs I deal with), though there are a few that are strays. I will say from experience that the majority of them do NOT have emotional problems, nor are they coming into rescue from kennels. I think I might have misunderstood what you are saying.


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## CarolinaCasey

Things like this make my blood boil. Grr! She's got tons of litters- she's expecting a mini goldendoodle litter too. That would be a mutt x3. 

Mixed breeds are no healthier than pure bred dogs. We just know a lot more of the health problems in a pure bred dog because people know and care enough to screen for disease and have testing done after death. Not many people do this for mixed breeds, there are too many variables and you might not even know what breeds the dog is made of.


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## Adriennelane

Is it wrong that every time I see "sheltidoodle" my mind thinks a dirty wordydoodle?


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## CarolinaCasey

You can see that they have GREAT breeding stock- they're breeding skittish and people-scared dog. Let me jump on one of her puppies ASAP! 

*"Angel" f1 medium standard goldendoodle is now available for rehome.*
*Angel has been a good mom and a fairly nice pet as well. She does need a special home as she is stranger shy. She is great with our family, has a calm and mellow disposition, crate trained, leash trained, loves to come in the house, is not a rambunctious/destructive girl.*


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## tonisaysss

i don't know why people assume shelter dogs are neurotic or have some sort of traumatic past. when i got to the shelter, it's normally 50% pitts, 25% mutts/designers, 25% purebred dogs. they are some of the most loving and grateful dogs you can own. 

designer mutts around here cost as much as AKC registered dogs in most cases.


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## tonisaysss

so, out of curiosity, where do you draw the line between puppy mills and crazy lunatics like this woman? she's got, what, 20+ pups in her home? 3 litters every few months? i guess simply because she's getting paid moo-goo and has money to house/deworm she's 1 tiny step above?

i don't see why this should be legal. it's repulsive.


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## Adriennelane

tonisaysss said:


> i don't know why people assume shelter dogs are neurotic or have some sort of traumatic past. when i got to the shelter, it's normally 50% pitts, 25% mutts/designers, 25% purebred dogs. they are some of the most loving and grateful dogs you can own.
> 
> designer mutts around here cost as much as AKC registered dogs in most cases.



My Dory is probably the sweetest I know.


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## CarolinaCasey

I think mixed breeds are sweet too, and that they all deserve a home. But what this woman is doing is wrong in my opinion. She is doing nothing but capitalizing on a fad and chasing the almighty dollar. While she may keep her dogs clean and cared for, I think there is more to it than this craziness


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## Pointgold

tonisaysss said:


> so, out of curiosity, where do you draw the line between puppy mills and crazy lunatics like this woman? she's got, what, 20+ pups in her home? 3 litters every few months? i guess simply because she's getting paid moo-goo and has money to house/deworm she's 1 tiny step above?
> 
> i don't see why this should be legal. it's repulsive.


 
It is most likely NOT legal, and if AC in her town knew that she was keeping 20+ dogs in her home, as a business, they'd shut her down.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Pointgold said:


> It is most likely NOT legal, and if AC in her town knew that she was keeping 20+ dogs in her home, as a business, they'd shut her down.


And there we come full circle to protecting pets by enforcing the laws already on the books.


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## Adriennelane

You know what makes me the most angry is probably her constant use of dogbreedinfo.com as validation for what she's doing. That site in itself is very misleading in my opinion.


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## Bailey's BFF

I actually read about this "breeder" a long time ago when looking up how big my golden should get... my golden was the runt of her litter of 8... not a "miniature" or anything like that. This lady is insane!!! Cockers and goldens are not the same breed just because they have similar coats... this is just completely disgusting...

And she is charging like the same price someone could pay for a pure bred golden. 

I think any "breeder" who has puppies on SALE is a puppy mill. Obviously they do not think enough about the pups to wait for the right homes... they just want the $$$.


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## AnnieVA

Mega Dittos to that!

AnnieVA


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## Pointgold

Bailey's BFF said:


> I actually read about this "breeder" a long time ago when looking up how big my golden should get... my golden was the runt of her litter of 8... not a "miniature" or anything like that. This lady is insane!!! Cockers and goldens are not the same breed just because they have similar coats... this is just completely disgusting...
> 
> And she is charging like the same price someone could pay for a pure bred golden.
> 
> I think any "breeder" who has puppies on SALE is a puppy mill. Obviously they do not think enough about the pups to wait for the right homes... they just want the $$$.


They are producing puppies before there are homes for them, which is even worse, IMO.


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## momtoMax

Wow, this lady is an idiot. I have to check but I was wondering if she posts an address. I think that it would be a good thing to contact the local SPCA in her area with a concern / complaint. In my mind, by the description of how many dogs she has and how she is describing them - her dogs may be living in filth outside like the one woman who made the news recently breeding...I'm trying to think of the name of this dog...long hair...herding dogs...well, hopefully someone will know what I am talking about. I think she needs a visit from AC to ensure that even though she's an idiot, that at the very least she isn't abusing/neglecting the dogs she has.


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## Muddypaws

No such thing..... there should be a law against this kind of thing.


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## MyMaggieGirl

I have been trying to find an address and can't seem to find one. She mentions that a humane society visited her ranch in 2007 and she passed. Well that was three years ago.

She professes to be very religious yet in my opinion she is messing with God's animals by intentionally mixing breeds and passing them off as she is. I also found something about her creating miniature cats. And ponies. I'm still trying to find a physical address.


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## fostermom

The only thing I got from her site is that she is in Montana.


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## Jackson'sMom

tonisaysss said:


> i sent her an email for kicks because i was curious. i was polite.
> 
> this is what i received:
> 
> "Hello! What an unpleasant surprise to hear from you guys as always! :O)
> 
> You guys are from the batch of unbalanced folks that put dogs before people right? Oh and the ones that are totally fine with people breeding the "pure" (by the way the purebred came from breeders "mixing" until it became pure......remember the days?) bred dog as long as it is pure bred.......Right. So we have giant, 120 lb goldens........90 lb goldens.......can you say bad hips and elbows anyone? Oh or should we talk about teperament and disposition.....do you know how many "pure" bred registered GOLDENS I have had to sort through just to find some suitable to be bred for my miniatures? Do we want to talk about the pure bred/inbred goldens? Do we want to talk about how they are DOG aggressive? Do we want to talk about how some states (like CA I hear) are considering the golden retriever to be at high risk for biting people? Pull your heads out of the sand! Wake up and realize that MANY people have totally flooded the market with "pure" bred crap! Then they sell them to brokers, puppies on the street for $250 or less....
> 
> 
> So really......you think about it just for a minute......am "I" the one you want to keep blaming for your little "groups" problems?
> 
> 
> "I" am sorting and building from only the good traits that the early goldens had. I sell my puppies as penthouse pets.....ON a spay/neuter contract which as you know greatly minimizes them ever being bred. So, why not look into cleaning your OWN house before trying to fix someone else?
> 
> 
> Best of luck with that!


Wow. Unethical and nasty, too. I can't bring myself to visit her Web site. My stomach is doing flip-flops just reading about this person.


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## fostermom

On their contact us page is this phone number. It gives the city and state for the number.
*(406) 323-1592*

This number is a *landline* based in *Roundup, MT* and is unpublished.


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## Bender

Google is a good thing. Looked up her phone number and found more info on a classified ad (removed the phone number though). I always question breeders who take credit cards and paypal...



*$900.00* 

*- Breed: Mini Goldendoodle
- Ages: new born
- Color: Cream Light gold
- Weight: 15-35 lbs

*
Angel and Skip had a litter of beautiful f1-b mini goldendoodle puppies on May 7, 2009. Puppies are born in the house, well socialized, 1st shot, wormed. Will be sweet little babies. Should mature between 15-35 lbs. Males and females available. Discount for local pick up! Shipping is available though.

 *Shannon Halvorsen* (Roundup, Montana)







Visit website E-mail






















Buy safely. Escrow service.


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## roxanness

Charming. 

I wish there was actually something that could be done about these heartless, 
money grubbing and pathetic people.


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## MyMaggieGirl

roxanness said:


> Charming.
> 
> I wish there was actually something that could be done about these heartless,
> money grubbing and pathetic people.


Who would we call to report this - a humane society? It doesn't sound like she really lives in an area that has animal control as we do in populated areas.

She has corresponded with one of the yahoo email group ladies and of course she is defending herself and her first email was quoting bible verses but not answering any questions. (I don't mean any disrespect by that comment.) 

She did, however, mention "having six litters of pups in our small cabin." Doesn't sound like great conditions in my opinion.


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## Muddypaws

MyMaggieGirl said:


> She did, however, mention "having six litters of pups in our small cabin." Doesn't sound like great conditions in my opinion.


That may be considered "hoarding" and could be illegal on her state. It would be one way of shutting her down. Depending on the conditions and the state laws, could be considered a Puppy Mill too.


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## LauraBella

I'm speechless.

That's rare.


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## Jackson'sMom

*From Rimrock Humane Society:

How to Report Animal Cruelty

* If you suspect animal cruelty, please call the Musselshell County Sheriff's Department (406-323-1402) and notify them of your concerns (the Sheriff is the acting Humane Officer in this county). All calls to the Sheriff are kept strictly confidential. They will, in turn, send a Deputy to the residence and evaluate the situation. If neglect is apparent, a citation will be written. A re-check will occur and if the owners are still in violation, appropriate action will be taken. The Deputy or Sheriff will call us in as a consultant, if the animal needs to be removed from the situation or if the owner is open to education in regards to responsible pet ownership.


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## MyMaggieGirl

Thanks for that info, that's what I found too, to contact the Sheriff's department.

I was just looking on the HSUS sight and it says to contact local law authorities if you suspect abuse.

I'm still working on this. I'm on a mission now.


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## Finn's Fan

*"#3) DO NOT *
*Limit your puppies food!!!!! Limiting a puppies food will cause long term phsychological issues for your puppy/dog. This causes your puppy to always be hungry, never full. A hungry puppy is more likely to eat faster, eat more, over eat, become a lifetime glutton, protect or guard its food for fear that it won't have enough, be more edgy throughout the day......can get aggressive. DO NOT LIMIT your puppies food! If you have an adult dog that is well trained and it eats out of boredom.......TAKE IT FOR A WALK!!!!! Dogs should not have to "worry" about when or where their next meal is comming from."*

*The above quote is on their website. What in the world does this even mean? Keep feeding the puppy until it refuses food? I am so very sorry for these dogs. MyMaggiGirl, if you can get this woman shut down, you would be doing a great service to the animals.*


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## tonisaysss

she just sent me another email calling me blood thirsty, rude, and said i insulted her family because i said "i don't know how you can continuously justify breeding mutts and selling them for $900 a pop." i told her it's about the well being of dogs, not her family. mind you, nothing soothes my bored teenage mind like messing with some crazy on the internet. :

i recieved this: 
"You think "I" need to take a step back? Not insulting me or my family? This is my life. This is what I am building. My kids are right along side me choosing the best stock "we" can. Going through temperament and disposition traits....looking at parental and grand parent health defects.....or LACK of.....we do this building together. You know nothing about the "health" or well being of ANY of my animals. Maybe you should take a step back and see that you are hurting people because you are rude, overbearing and want everyone else to conform to "your" way. I will never fit "your" mold. Think outside the box. This country was built by "individuals" not by robots all programmed to do and say the same thing. As far as I know....it is still a free country and "I" can still do what "I" believe in. You don't have to agree. That is your right. But if you feel that hurting others is an acceptable practice......then I feel for your loss as you must be a very sad person.

WOMAN IS A LUNATIC.

if anyone does intend on reporting her or doing even the slightest something, let me know where i can sign up.


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## Jackson'sMom

In addition to feeling very sorry for her 'stock,' I also feel sorry for her kids.


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## Adriennelane

tonisaysss said:


> she just sent me another email calling me blood thirsty, rude, and said i insulted her family because i said "i don't know how you can continuously justify breeding mutts and selling them for $900 a pop." i told her it's about the well being of dogs, not her family. mind you, nothing soothes my bored teenage mind like messing with some crazy on the internet. :
> 
> i recieved this:
> "You think "I" need to take a step back? Not insulting me or my family? This is my life. This is what I am building. My kids are right along side me choosing the best stock "we" can. Going through temperament and disposition traits....looking at parental and grand parent health defects.....or LACK of.....we do this building together. You know nothing about the "health" or well being of ANY of my animals. Maybe you should take a step back and see that you are hurting people because you are rude, overbearing and want everyone else to conform to "your" way. I will never fit "your" mold. Think outside the box. This country was built by "individuals" not by robots all programmed to do and say the same thing. As far as I know....it is still a free country and "I" can still do what "I" believe in. You don't have to agree. That is your right. But if you feel that hurting others is an acceptable practice......then I feel for your loss as you must be a very sad person.
> 
> WOMAN IS A LUNATIC.
> 
> if anyone does intend on reporting her or doing even the slightest something, let me know where i can sign up.




Geeze. She's as friendly as the ambulance chaser who called my phone at work last week, a few days after I had been the victim of a fender bender. I just casually called her what she was, and she got all crazy.

Frankly, when you call someone crazy, and they are crazy or worse, praying on ignorant people, then they usually get very angry and defensive because they deep down know they're in the wrong.


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## Tracy S.

Stock........how cold and unfamiliar with her animals is she? Disgusting.


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## zeke11

Ugh.

I went to the website and found it really hard to navigate and didn't see any puppy photos either. I was also very curious about the sheltidoodles. Yikes.

Another story....Duff & I were going to a puppy kindergarten class, right after our class ended another was beginning. A woman entered with two little puppies, looked just like goldens to me so I asked about them - you know I HAD to!

She told me they were miniature goldendoodles. Mom was a golden, Dad a miniature poodle. Artificially inseminated!! OMG. 

I just don't like goldens being mixed up with other dogs.

I do have a so-called designer dog (but I didn't spend $$$$$ on him), LOL! I wanted a part poodle, so looked for a dog mixed with a poodle and Teddy is a pomeranian/poodle. I call him a mutt, though 

Kris


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## hotel4dogs

pugs are very high on the list of dogs with hip dysplasia. 
mixed breeds are higher on the list (by 1) of hip dysplasia than golden retrievers are.




tonisaysss said:


> these dogs aren't hybrids, they're mutts. i can possibly agree to an extent regarding less genetic defects being passed. it also falls with logic, not so much the breeds being bred; larger dogs are prone to dysplasia so smaller combination would be less likely to experience that issue which is truly the only point she may have going for her concoction of animals.
> 
> my main issue with designer breeds simply put is that they are mutts. they are $900-$1000 mutts. i find breeding these animals for such prices to be so horribly disrespectful considering all of the animals being killed in shelters and those in foster homes. that's just my opinion, however.


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## momtoMax

About reporting her to local animal authorities, this could work. I think I remember on her site what state she is. Look at a map of that state and pick a central town/city. Email her. Tell her you were looking for a golden and you saw her site about minature goldens. You can say you've always wanted a golden but they are much too large for apartment living. You can go on and on and tell her how excited you are about buying a minature golden - it's just perfect for your living arrangements right now. Tell her how adorable they are. Tell her where you live (remember, central town in that state.) and ask her which town she lives in. Tell her that you are are so very excited and you'd be willing to drive a couple of hours to go and see her puppies on your day off. 

I think the only way you are going to be able to pinpoint this person is to use sugar.

PS. Actually, you can use the area code to narrow where she might be located even more and pick a central town in that area code.


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## CarolinaCasey

^LOL- I was just thinking the same thing!


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## maggiesmommy

I had a friend who had a "mini Golden" Looked just like a smaller golden, but was twice as aggressive as the cocker spaniel who was bred into him (not that cockers are aggressive, but, his dad was a jerk!).


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## tennisball

Wow, this lady is crazy. I'm thinking someone should contact her as a serious buyer and ask her the normal questions off the puppy buyer checklist and see what she says :


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## Mssjnnfer

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=22578

Not sure if these were the same people, but a very heated (and eventually locked) thread contains some nasty emails from this witch.


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## Bender

Here's another scary one. Counted 41 litters planned for this year. And if you read about their 'visitor policy' it's just creepy, between the nice way they say they don't want people coming to see the dogs to the example of 30 puppies dying of parvo within days.... ick ick ick...

http://www.timshellfarm.com/index.html

Lana


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## Allan's Girl

Mssjnnfer said:


> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=22578
> 
> Not sure if these were the same people, but a very heated (and eventually locked) thread contains some nasty emails from this witch.


Hey I checked through both web pages. It is the same person. Check out the parent dogs on both websites.


----------



## Mssjnnfer

That is so disgusting. These monsters have to be stopped...

"*We have been inspected by the AKC here in April of 2007 it was my first inspection, spur of the moment and thank God we passed!!!! I had some paperwork issues because I was ignorant of some of the rules but all of the animals and living conditions were plenty acceptable. 

**Although many of our animals are registered with the AKC, we will be using APRI for our registry instead.*"
*
*I wonder how the AKC would be involved? These are all mutts.


----------



## tonisaysss

hotel4dogs said:


> pugs are very high on the list of dogs with hip dysplasia.
> mixed breeds are higher on the list (by 1) of hip dysplasia than golden retrievers are.


great to know! thank you.

this makes me feel even worse for her animals.


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## momtoMax

Wow, the years haven't made her any smarter or nicer, have they?


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## fostermom

Bender said:


> Here's another scary one. Counted 41 litters planned for this year. And if you read about their 'visitor policy' it's just creepy, between the nice way they say they don't want people coming to see the dogs to the example of 30 puppies dying of parvo within days.... ick ick ick...
> 
> http://www.timshellfarm.com/index.html
> 
> Lana


Yikes! That one is really scary. 

momtoMax, you don't want to know. Well, maybe you do, but the thing was pretty ugly.


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## amy22

I just feel so bad for all those puppies.....


----------



## NuttinButGoldens

Whoa.... This one person is trying really hard to re-invent the entire ****** species, not just the Golden Retriever.

Looks like the place where everything is an accidental breeding!

Petite Miniature Golden? WTH?

Comfort Goldens ?


----------



## momtoMax

That lady is a bad lady.


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## fostermom

I'll PM you.


----------



## Muddypaws

amy22 said:


> I just feel so bad for all those puppies.....


Me too. :no: They are the ones really suffering in all this.


----------



## MyMaggieGirl

She lives in Roundup Montana and they don't have an animal control group per se, we need to contact the sheriff's department about possible animal abuse. I don't feel comfortable about that just because we don't know her relationship with them (the police). I haven't given up on her yet!

Regarding her comment about the AKC - must stand for something other than what we know it as.


----------



## tonisaysss

well, i tried emailing her with another one of my emails and pretending to be interested in her dogs. i googled houses for sale in her area and claimed i lived in roundup on a road in her vicinity. she asked me about myself, i said i had a house/backyard and a 10 year old child and we just lost a dog to old age, etc. i asked about her puppies and stated i was very interested if i could put a deposit on a puppy or take one home which she agreed to. i was nothing but polite and realistic. 

she stated she was coming to "roundup" to pick up a horse (uh what? those too?! she apparently lives OUTSIDE of roundup as well) and offered to come to my home with a puppy. i said i wanted my daughter to choose and i'd like to see the mom and dad dogs if they were still on premises.

this is where it got fishy. she still obviously believes i'm interested, but she is refusing (from what i gather) to allow me to come to her home. she said she would bring the litter AND mom/dad dogs to me. she said "diseases are transmitted" and she has super young pups (with only 1 vaccine she says) over and above the ones for sale and doesn't want to risk it. thats kinda weird to me. most breeders only vaccine once before selling too. fishy.

it was my bored attempt at getting an address/real location out of her to do something about this little scenario. oh well.


----------



## momtoMax

Tell her that you'd be willing to see the pups outside of their home (in the yard) so not to worry about transferring diseases. Tell her that your daughter/son wants to go and pick out the puppy at the breeders and that you would feel much more comfortable picking up the dog from her personally. Tell her if she isn't willing to compromise - as much as you want to get a dog from her - you will look elsewhere because it is really important to your child to do this. Tell her you'd wouldn't mind a couple hour drive if need be, you would make a fun day out of it. 

Also tell her that you are off on Saturday and wonder if you and your child can come pick one up then. The eminent sale might entice her even more.


----------



## Bender

It's quite likely she doesn't want ANYONE on her place, because it's likely not much better than a puppy mill, with dogs stacked in runs/cages etc... that would be my guess anyway, that if people actually saw where and how the dogs were cared for they wouldn't get a pup or would report her. 

Lana


----------



## tonisaysss

asked about meeting OUTSIDE on her property and that i have no problem driving and didn't want to inconvenience her -- and again she refused. she said perhaps when all her puppies are "fully vaccinated" we may work something out. go figure.


----------



## Jackson'sMom

Still think the sheriff needs to pay her a visit. Maybe that request she couldn't be able to refuse.


----------



## momtoMax

I think perhaps toni can send an email to the local sherriffs. At this point, you know she has something to hide and there are dogs suffering.


----------



## momtoMax

Out of interest, I entered RoundUp's zip code into Kimms pet abuse finder.

http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/cruelty_database/local_search.php?zip=59072&miles=100


----------



## Adriennelane

I imagine she doesn't really want anyone to know where she lives, because it is horrible there.


----------



## booklady

And while she's making a bloody fortune on mutts, Golden rescues are swamped, foster homes are at a premium, dogs just like hers are dying in shelters.

And all of the above come at a fraction of the cost of one of her "items in stock"! Someone has to stop her.


----------



## Loisiana

I think someone should email her, letting her know they're interested in a pup, and say they want to come meet the parents and see the set up for how the pups are raised. If she says no say that is one of the things on your checklist that you got for finding a good breeder.


----------



## Pointgold

This is what GRM used to do. She'd either do "Show and Sell" out of her mother's home, or, meet people with puppies somewhere. And no checks, please, just cash.

None of this is new. It is how millers and people operating outside of the law do things.


----------



## Loisiana

Caught her in a lie. Check out www.miniatureaussiedoodle.com

Where she claims that they only own five dogs, so all dogs are guaranteed to get attention. With five shelties and aussies, I guess she forgot about all those goldens.

It's the same phone number on both sites.


----------



## DUSTYRD2

I haven't look at the website - can't it will likely piss me off! This chick is beyond reprehensible and needs to be stopped. Just had a thought though. Much as we all hate PETA, maybe someone should call them and give them a heads up? LOL


----------



## Lestorm

Oh dear! I was horrified when I looked at the website. Not because they are cross bred dogs but that the breeding stock will have no life. I only hope a celeb doesnt buy one. I just hope that this doesnt take off in the UK!


----------



## Lisa_and_Willow.

I hate to imagine what conditions those dogs are living in. Clearly she knows it is unacceptable or she wouldn't fear having buyers come to her home.


----------



## MyMaggieGirl

Everything that I find online about possible puppy mills or abuse says to contact local law enforcement. I just can't help but wonder if they will question why I would be reporting this if I don't live anywhere near Montana. Any thoughts?

Interesting how she is totally avoiding having anyone come to look at her puppies. Sounds like how I respond when someone wants to come visit me without enough notice for me to clean my home!


----------



## Lestorm

MyMaggieGirl said:


> Everything that I find online about possible puppy mills or abuse says to contact local law enforcement. I just can't help but wonder if they will question why I would be reporting this if I don't live anywhere near Montana. Any thoughts?
> 
> !


Just tell them the truth that you have found this on the web site and would like them to look into it. :wavey:


----------



## DianaM

Mssjnnfer said:


> That is so disgusting. These monsters have to be stopped...
> 
> "*We have been inspected by the AKC here in April of 2007 it was my first inspection, spur of the moment and thank God we passed!!!! I had some paperwork issues because* *I was ignorant* *of some of the rules but all of the animals and living conditions were plenty acceptable.*
> 
> *Although many of our animals are registered with the AKC, we will be using APRI for our registry instead.*"
> 
> I wonder how the AKC would be involved? These are all mutts.


I'm glad she admits she is ignorant...

Also, did you notice for the one dog she is selling that she "loves to come in the house"? So.. does that only happen on special occasions or something? These people are sick.


----------



## MillysMom

Pointgold said:


> And, a "hybrid" is the result of a cross between 2 SPECIES, _not _2 breeds.


Thank you, thank you, thank you! People use this incorrectly all the time. 

A zebra crossed with a donkey is a hybrid.
A domestic cat crossed with a Asian Leopard cat is a hybrid, though still a cat, so this might get contested along the same lines of a wolf crossed with a dog being called a hybrid.
A horse crossed with a donkey is a hybrid (and a mule).
A lab crossed with a corgi is a mixed breed dog, not a hybrid Labracorgi.


----------



## Jo Ellen

DianaM said:


> Also, did you notice for the one dog she is selling that she "loves to come in the house"? So.. does that only happen on special occasions or something? These people are sick.


It's not uncommon for breeders to keep their dogs in kennels outside the home and only bring them indoors on special occasions. It's not a philosophy I agree with personally, but in that respect this breeder isn't unusual.


----------



## tonisaysss

i would love to do something about her. however, all 'roundup, MT' area ASPCA/animal abuse websites direct everyone to the sherrif's department. i'm also younger and will likely not be taken seriously, especially living down in florida.

i am willing to forward emails to anyone if they intend on pursuing something being done. 

she owns like 11+ "stock" dogs and numerous puppies. if that's not a mill, i don't know what is.


----------



## Mssjnnfer

Seriously, these monsters need to be stopped. I would explain to the sheriff or police that you're part of this forum, where people help in rescues all the time, and you're concerned about this "breeder." Send copies of her emails (including the first couple you sent, so he can see how nasty she was when you were nothing but polite.)


----------



## Bender

I wonder if the local news would like to interview their friendly neighborhood puppy mill to see how the people react?

Lana


----------



## Mssjnnfer

Bender said:


> I wonder if the local news would like to interview their friendly neighborhood puppy mill to see how the people react?
> 
> Lana


That's an excellent idea!


----------



## Kelmel

Ceasar Milan has a toll free # his web site to report suspected puppy mills. It is for the national humane society. If someone who has the info collected so far wants to call, it may work. 1-877-mill-tip. He did a show with a rescue that dealt with puppy mills.


----------



## Loisiana

tonisaysss said:


> she owns like 11+ "stock" dogs and numerous puppies. if that's not a mill, i don't know what is.


That in itself does not make a puppy mill. If that were the case, the majority of the top breeders would be considered puppy mills.


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## Jackson'sMom

Anybody have anything new to report? I hate to see this continue.


----------



## LizShort

omg how horrifying. don't even get me started on my thoughts about psycho spaniels... uhhh... I mean cocker spaniels... I can only hope that these dogs find their way into loving homes. It's not their fault they are coming into this world as designer dogs.  My heart is breaking.


----------



## CarolinaCasey

Any updates? Have any of you in direct contact with this loony-tune made any progress toward finding her address or reporting her?


----------



## Goldnbear

I was really trying hard to stay away from this thread by not going to the website, but then I did. I just have to comment about the following statement...

_"Health can be an issue with most purebred dogs. Why?? Because of many years of unethical breeding practices. This will ring true wether it is a purebred or a mix. If you inbreed excessively and you breed dogs that you KNOW are genetically unhealthy you will have unhealthy offspring. This makes no difference wether the dog is purebred or mixed. Unfortunately years ago BEFORE breeders started realizing all of these new health issues, they would breed two dogs that were "pure" together without any thought about possible health issues as long as they were breeding two "papered" animals. Now, we will often still see those stains on the back lines of pedigrees."
_
This statement is infuriating to me. Not only is she misinformed and ignorant about many things as stated on her website, she is blaming breeders for health issues in their breeds because they are breeding "genetically unhealthy" animals. First off, she can't possibly know all of the hip, eye, heart, whatever health behind her own breeding dogs because I don't know a single "good" or "responsible" breeder that would have sold her a puppy!!!! And any other breeder wouldn't have bothered doing any clearances! So who is the one breeding animals that are potentially genetically unhealthy???!?! You guessed it, she is! Oh yeah and where are her health clearances since she is breeding such fine, genetically healthy animals. Actually, come to think of it, where are the parents at anyways? Oh my gosh, why did I ever look at that?! I don't have enough time in the day to waste thoughts on this person.


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## DianaM

And it just got worse...
http://miniaturecats.net/index.html

Same lady. She owns 7 domains. Her address is here too if people still want to report her.
http://whois.domaintools.com/ponytraining.net


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## momtoMax

that's so awful. Do we have anyone who lives in her state who can report her? We should get together all the info we have first and get it to that person. ooooooh and I see it has a home address too!!! Great find Diana!!!


----------



## Scubasteve198

I had the misfortune to click on the PAYMENT BUTTONS on that web site.

WOW!!


----------



## Debles

This is the worst website I have ever seen.


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## Lestorm

I emailed her but didnt get a reply.


----------



## Hutchdm

Loisiana said:


> Caught her in a lie. Check out www.miniatureaussiedoodle.com
> 
> Where she claims that they only own five dogs, so all dogs are guaranteed to get attention. With five shelties and aussies, I guess she forgot about all those goldens.
> 
> It's the same phone number on both sites.


 Ok if you know anything about anything. you would realize that LSC Ranch is Luke and Sarah Coates Ranch, and they sell mini Aussies. NOT MINI GOLDENS That is another person, the reason she has the same number is cause it is her daughter trying to start her own business and that is her choice of breed. I have one of her dogs and that is the best dog my family has ever had!!!!! back off. These people are the best loving people ever! They will help someone in need the way God likes. Talk to them as a person you dont know them get over yourselfs. And quit judging people unless you like people to judge you.


----------



## Hutchdm

tonisaysss said:


> well, i tried emailing her with another one of my emails and pretending to be interested in her dogs. i googled houses for sale in her area and claimed i lived in roundup on a road in her vicinity. she asked me about myself, i said i had a house/backyard and a 10 year old child and we just lost a dog to old age, etc. i asked about her puppies and stated i was very interested if i could put a deposit on a puppy or take one home which she agreed to. i was nothing but polite and realistic.
> 
> she stated she was coming to "roundup" to pick up a horse (uh what? those too?! she apparently lives OUTSIDE of roundup as well) and offered to come to my home with a puppy. i said i wanted my daughter to choose and i'd like to see the mom and dad dogs if they were still on premises.
> 
> this is where it got fishy. she still obviously believes i'm interested, but she is refusing (from what i gather) to allow me to come to her home. she said she would bring the litter AND mom/dad dogs to me. she said "diseases are transmitted" and she has super young pups (with only 1 vaccine she says) over and above the ones for sale and doesn't want to risk it. thats kinda weird to me. most breeders only vaccine once before selling too. fishy.
> 
> it was my bored attempt at getting an address/real location out of her to do something about this little scenario. oh well.


well if you know that there are a lot of things that can cause a puppies death. Like Parvo!! omg no way. even though you dont have to do that more than once but there are other things, you know the people who are like this need not to have a animal cause they are the crazy ones!!!!


----------



## Hutchdm

GoForGold said:


> Miniature Aussie Doodle... are you kidding me?!


ya people really need to do research before they sit and act like they know everything.


----------



## AlanK

Hutchdm said:


> ya people really need to do research before they sit and act like they know everything.


Very curious Hutchdm as to what your affiliation is with those you are here to defend.

Many people here have researched extensively ethical and proper breeding practices. What are your thoughts of ethical breeding of any breed?


----------



## Hutchdm

AlanK said:


> Very curious Hutchdm as to what your affiliation is with those you are here to defend.
> 
> Many people here have researched extensively ethical and proper breeding practices. What are your thoughts of ethical breeding of any breed?


I have dealt with them with both horses and dogs, I am a horse trainer. I bought a really great horse from them for my family and me to have. I normally buy a horse that people want to put down/feed to the dogs, train it get its trust and resell it, does that make me a bad person? What I am saying is that just cause someone believes in something, which she is trying to protect her kids from the horrible things that people are doing and to protect her dogs, why would you put them down and think the worse of them? Have you met her family? No probably not. And if you look at it what you are doing would make it ok for someone to say cause a person is black all they are good for is to be your slave! JUST CAUSE THEY ARE BLACK! God did not make it so we would be mean to each other. He wants us to treat others as we want to be treated. Would you want someone sitting here talking about your business like this? I don't think so. And when people say that the dog comes before a person is totally wrong. God made man to rule over animals, he may have made animals first but they need someone to rule over them that is in Genesis, the first book of the Bible.
Often in dog-related fields one hears or reads about "working to improve the breed". What this means to fanciers is that the breeder is working to produce a dog that most closely meets the Breed Standard used in that breeder's country. One would think that *a breeder's ultimate goal is to produce healthy, structurally sound, temperamentally stable dogs*. Well if you read her site, that is what she is saying she wants to do. 
Now would it not be common sense that just cause someone does not have a million dollars in a bank account they are still good people? Well I am sorry to all the people that think that unless you have money your worthless, and just like humans dogs don't need a king size bed and a chef to make their meals everyday, the can be just as happy running around getting dirty and having playmates. But I know that these people are amazing people to their animals and their kids, oh BTW her kids are the best behaved kids I have ever seen, I don't think there are any kids now-a-days like that, you would only find them way back when, and since I know they are great you can say all the bad things you want about them and I will know its not true and know that God loves all, Human and animal. 
You wont hear from me again as I do not think that this deserves my time.
GOD BLESS AND KEEP YOU ALL! May he always be with you. :wavey:


----------



## AlanK

Hutchdm said:


> I have dealt with them with both horses and dogs, I am a horse trainer. I bought a really great horse from them for my family and me to have. I normally buy a horse that people want to put down/feed to the dogs, train it get its trust and resell it, does that make me a bad person? What I am saying is that just cause someone believes in something, which she is trying to protect her kids from the horrible things that people are doing and to protect her dogs, why would you put them down and think the worse of them? Have you met her family? No probably not. And if you look at it what you are doing would make it ok for someone to say cause a person is black all they are good for is to be your slave! JUST CAUSE THEY ARE BLACK! God did not make it so we would be mean to each other. He wants us to treat others as we want to be treated. Would you want someone sitting here talking about your business like this? I don't think so. And when people say that the dog comes before a person is totally wrong. God made man first, that is in Genesis, the first book of the Bible.
> Often in dog-related fields one hears or reads about "working to improve the breed". What this means to fanciers is that the breeder is working to produce a dog that most closely meets the Breed Standard used in that breeder's country. One would think that *a breeder's ultimate goal is to produce healthy, structurally sound, temperamentally stable dogs*. Well if you read her site, that is what she is saying she wants to do.
> Now would it not be common sense that just cause someone does not have a million dollars in a bank account they are still good people? Well I am sorry to all the people that think that unless you have money your worthless, and just like humans dogs don't need a king size bed and a chef to make their meals everyday, the can be just as happy running around getting dirty and having playmates. But I know that these people are amazing people to their animals and their kids, oh BTW her kids are the best behaved kids I have ever seen, I don't think there are any kids now-a-days like that, you would only find them way back when, and since I know they are great you can say all the bad things you want about them and I will know its not true and know that God loves all, Human and animal.
> You wont hear from me again as I do not think that this deserves my time.
> GOD BLESS AND KEEP YOU ALL! May he always be with you. :wavey:


God Bless you Also ....... Hutchdm says " you can say all the bad things you want about them" ..... Please Know.... I did not say bad things about anyone.


----------



## Hutchdm

AlanK said:


> God Bless you Also ....... Hutchdm says " you can say all the bad things you want about them" ..... Please Know.... I did not say bad things about anyone.


You didn't, but there were somethings said that were uncalled for. You can't say there weren't.


----------



## Ljilly28

Please check the guidelines for buying a healthy golden retriever puppy from a responsible breeder. There is no such thing as a mini golden, a white golden, or a creme de golden.Responsible breeders of Australian Shepherds, Poodles, and Labs also have codes of ethics and parent clubs. All ask that "doodles" be thoughtfully avoided for reasons of health and predictability of puppies. 
http://www.grca.org/allabout/puppyreferrals.html


----------



## MGMF

There website makes me so sad. I feel bad for the buyer who would fall for such a thing. They look to have cocker or troller in them. The GRCA has a code of ethics to follow for the golden retriever. I wish more people would have personal ethics in what they do or believe.


----------



## Riles

Sorry, didn't mean to revive a dead thread. Message deleted.


----------



## MyLady Heidi

I am not sure why anyone would be upset about another hybrid dog especially if it could help eliminate all the health problems I read about in goldens on a daily basis. I love my golden girls but I would be happier if they were some hybrid breed that was healthier and didn't have all the cancer risks. What scares me the most, purebred dogs I see posted on here only live 10-12 years and most die of cancer and some even fewer years. It is very sad.


----------



## MGMF

MyLady Heidi said:


> I am not sure why anyone would be upset about another hybrid dog especially if it could help eliminate all the health problems I read about in goldens on a daily basis. I love my golden girls but I would be happier if they were some hybrid breed that was healthier and didn't have all the cancer risks. What scares me the most, purebred dogs I see posted on here only live 10-12 years and most die of cancer and some even fewer years. It is very sad.



Just because a dog is a mix does not make them a healthier choice or less risk. Even if you put two different breed together that have health issues they still can pass down their problems.


----------



## Herschel

I'm sorry to bring up this old thread. I was just looking on the internet if my dog Herschel was in the normal size range for his age (he is on the smaller side). Then this website came up and I looked in it. I was *UTTERLY DISGUSTED*. Stupid puppy mills...and then they said there was a "family issue" so they didn't have the time to care for and socialize the puppies! I bet they wouldn't even if there wasn't family issues. Besides, they have the responsibility to raise the puppies (which they shouldn't have bred). I can't imagine how many health and behaviour issues their dogs have. 

I found their location. You can see at http://listings.findthecompany.com/l/8506058/C-and-S-Ranch-in-Roundup-MT. 

210 Hay Coulee Rd
Roundup, Montana 59072-6532
United States. 

Definately contact a local spca if you are in that area. I can't believe they are still open.

Oh, and by the way they also raise miniature labs. http://www.miniaturelabs.net/
The lab people should also know about them.


----------



## Monkey&Marshall

Wow. Just.... gross. They aren't breeding anything but mutts. Of which, we have enough already.  So sad.


----------



## mm2k14

Monkey&Marshall said:


> They aren't breeding anything but mutts.


Ah, but you can have an 'English Creme' mutt for the low, low (reduced) cost of $1700. :uhoh:


----------



## Herschel

Something that angered me even more. 

Consumer Complaints for C and S Family Ranch - BBB serving Northwest

Click "Read Complaint Details". 

Complaint: I placed a $200 deposit for a "future" miniature golden retriever puppy in February 28, 2012. (At the time, I was still asking questions about the dogs that were going to be bred. It was going to be at least 9-12 months before I would possibly receive a puppy) On February 29, 2012, I had asked the Breeder additional questions following the deposit and did not have a "good" feeling about the answers to my questions and an indication of annoyance on her part regarding my questions. I sent an email to her asking for a full refund for the deposit that was made the day before. She said that a refund will not be given since the PayPal transaction states it. (Her website has been updated and changed since this occurred). I told her that no exchange of goods or services had even happened and she did not care in the least. I mentioned to her that she was stealing from people and proceeded to quote scripture since her website is full of the reference. I told her that if she quotes scripture on her website then she should realize that she is stealing from people. She in return said I steal and went on to antagonize me about my life. How does a business owner get away with something like this? She kept the $200 deposit.

Desired Settlement: I would like a refund for my deposit of $200 if possible. I asked for the refund from the business owner and was denied. I know it has been some time but I did not know if I could have even filed a complaint until now. At least, maybe this will help another possible customer from being ripped off.

Business Response:

My response is simple:

Our policy has been in place for many years. Long before this person placed her deposit. The woman writing the complaint could clearly see in bold red letters that deposits are not refundable, but ARE transferable. Period. She placed a non refundable deposit, wasted my time and energy, apparently could not read directions. (nonrefundable means nonrefundable)

C and S Ranch does NOT charge people for asking questions but we do expect only those individuals that SERIOUSLY want to buy a puppy from us to place a deposit. This is a token of their serious "commitment" to puppy ownership. As always, window shopping and questioning is free of charge. If the person filing this complaint was not 100% sure, then she should not have placed a nonrefundable deposit.

We do not just change our policy because someone demands that we do so. Nor do we force anyone to do business with us. We do not "take" anyones money and not send them a puppy. However, people do have the right to back out. That is what happened here. That is not my fault and I will not take responsibility for another persons actions.

She backed out of the sale knowing completely well, that she would not get her money back. I did not back out or refuse to sell her the dog.

This was her choice. End of story.

Sincerely,

C and S Ranch

Consumer Response:

[To assist us in bringing this matter to a close, you must give us a reason why you are rejecting the response. If no reason is received, your complaint will be closed Administratively Resolved]

BBB,

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ******** and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.

[To assist us in bringing this matter to a close, we would like to know your view on the matter.]



Hello Christian,

As we discussed, I am sending you my response directly since I have been having trouble uploading on the BBB website. Thank you for your help.

Contrary to what the business owner said, I did not back out of the deal knowing that I would not receive a refund. Yes, there was a designation on PayPal that said no refunds but my understanding was that this would apply to customers that actually purchased and selected a dog or was further into the selection of the breeding process. There are always justified circumstances that can arise from a purchase that can be altered and changed by a business. The fact is she kept my deposit for doing nothing on her part since the questions I had asked beforehand were according to her free. She has taken advantage of the situation without any remorse or regret.
My request for a refund was made the following day after the deposit was made. Had a reasonable amount of time passed after making the deposit or if I would have chosen a dog from a litter already in progress, I would have not expected a refund. My request for a refund is fair and justifiable under the circumstances since there was no cost to her.
The main reason for me not wanting to purchase a dog from this breeder is that she was being reluctant to send additional information that I requested. She ignored my additional requests for research and information on the different dogs. In the beginning she was nice and I had some information so I felt comfortable and made a deposit. After the deposit was made, her demeanor changed. When I contacted her by phone, she was frustrated that I called and became short with me and annoyed. I had also asked for photographs of the different dogs since I had not decided which mother to choose for breeding and one of the male dogs for breeding was from somewhere else. Not all of the dogs were posted on her website. How do you expect someone to purchase a $2,000 dog without additional questions that need to be answered or images to be seen? If she was getting angry at me now, how is she going to be later on in the process? She did not establish a level of trust with me especially for an online business. The situation did not feel right so I decided not to proceed and asked for a refund. 
As a consumer, I am depending on the business owner to do the right thing. I spoke to several dog breeders regarding this situation and they all said that they would have given the refund since it would have not caused them any expense especially based on the timeline that I cancelled. This would have been a proper means to remedy the situation.
She stated in her responses that I wasted her time and energy. This contradicts what she advertises about asking being able to ask questions. In my opinion, her “free” questions and information cost me $200. I found her to be very with unprofessional. I want consumers to know that she is not only unreasonable but also unethical.


Regards,

**** *****

Business Response:

In response to this complaint, I would like to point out a couple of key points.

1) Our nonrefundable (for any reason) deposit policy has been in place since we started raising puppies. That was well over 10 years ago. If we change the rule for one person, then we must change it for all. That being said, why have the policy at all if we are not going to stand by it?

2) The customer aknowledges that she did in fact read that (in her own words from her complaint letter) "Yes, there was a designation on Pay Pal that said no refunds" telling us that she did in fact "know" that deposits were not refundable. It is not my job as a business owner to determine how each person "interprets" the nonrefundable statement. It is my job to uphold company policy.

3) This customer also states that she was trying to purchase a $2,000 dog. To be honest, our very first litter of $2,000 puppies was conceived today. December 8th, 2014.

In fact, our deposit amount reflects the cost of the puppy. Any puppy that is $1200 or less is a $200 deposit. Any puppy that is over $1200 is a $400 deposit.

That has not changed. Nor has the nonrefundable nature of the deposit. That tells us that the customer was really attempting to buy a dog that was $1200 or less.

It is not my responsibility as a business owner to make sure that every single person reads and follows directions before placing a nonrefundable deposit.

This is solely the responsibility of the consumer to read and follow the directions that are clearly posted.

Although we do our best to please our customers, unfortunately, there is no possible way to please everyone. For that, I am sorry.

It is also a shame that the customer is still not doing her homework as she is actually accusing a ******* ******** online of keeping her deposit.

This company is C and S Family Ranch. We raise Miniature Golden Retrievers, Miniature Labs, Miniature Cattle and Kid Safe Ponies.

My name is not ******* ********, I am in no way affiliated with Mr. ********, and I am sure that Mr. ******** would prefer to not have his name slandered all over the internet.

Thank you,

Have a good day! 

Consumer Response:

[To assist us in bringing this matter to a close, you must give us a reason why you are rejecting the response. If no reason is received, your complaint will be closed Administratively Resolved]

BBB,

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ******** and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.

[To assist us in bringing this matter to a close, we would like to know your view on the matter.]



As far as I am concerned, when I corresponded and made a deposit for a possible future dog, the representative and business that I was dealing with was C and S Ranch (Home of the Miniature Golden Retriever Hunting Dog). The C and S Ranch company name is displayed on her website www.*************************.com as well as on several other internet websites. The how and why she displays and uses this company name is between her and the other business owner that she is referencing in her previous response.

I placed a deposit in good faith but felt disenfranchised with my customer experience once the deposit was made. I am a diligent consumer and asked legitimate questions and inquiries especially for a very expensive dog. (Whether the dog was $1,200 or $2,000 does not matter). I was dissatisfied with her service as I previously stated in my response and as a result, I did not complete my transaction to purchase a dog. In regards to refunding the deposit, this subject will continually be disagreed upon.


Regards,

**** *****


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## alphadude

Not looking to offend anybody here - just an observation.

I took a look at that web site and I find it *typical* that it is covered in scripture verses. The hypocrisy is palpable.

Why is it that 'ultra religious' people seem to be the the biggest participants in the puppy mill trade?? Here on the east coast, Amish country, in Pa is the capital for that kind of activity. These 'people' (and I use that term loosely), shun modernity and the ways of the 'English', meaning electricity, cars, technology of any kind, yet they have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER, hawking their 'wares' on the internet. Jebediah has to go 'a courting' in a horse and buggy while their poorly bred - purely for greed and profit puppies can be obtained with a few mouse clicks - all major credit cards accepted. Anybody see the contradiction???

They abuse these innocent, trusting, living breathing creatures ("God's creation", mind you) for profit and greed, and when they are no longer of any use, they abandon them or put a bullet in their head. Not exactly my idea of righteous behavior, but then again I'm not a religious zealot.

Rant over, sorry but the hypocrisy just *INCENSES* me!


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## Prism Goldens

Just my own observation- but most breeders who plaster scripture on their sites, and often play hymns in the background, those are the ones I would avoid like a disease. If one has to tout religiosity to sell puppies, then usually (my observation only) there's something that breeder is covering up. I have NEVER seen a site plastered in scripture that belonged to a good reputable breeder- maybe there is one out there, but I haven't noticed it.
I am feeling like I maybe shouldn't say all that but what the hey... it's raining today. I suppose it would be accurate to say Bible verses on a GR website are a red flag for me.


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## GoldenCamper

I'm amazed the link from OP works from just over six years ago.

The video of the national anthem sung at a demolition derby with a guy in a red tutu I saw on their website? Really?

I guess that marketing must have worked for them huh? Sad 

If I call now and buy one do I get 2 for free? I know the extra shipping cost is probably a given.


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## alphadude

Prism Goldens said:


> Just my own observation- but most breeders who plaster scripture on their sites, and often play hymns in the background, those are the ones I would avoid like a disease. If one has to tout religiosity to sell puppies, then usually (my observation only) there's something that breeder is covering up. I have NEVER seen a site plastered in scripture that belonged to a good reputable breeder- maybe there is one out there, but I haven't noticed it.
> I am feeling like I maybe shouldn't say all that but what the hey... it's raining today. I suppose it would be accurate to say Bible verses on a GR website are a red flag for me.


Could NOT agree more!


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## Herschel

My personal opinion is that it does not matter if they put scriptures on their website or not...someone who does that could still be a responsible breeder, but NOT THEM. *However, it seems as if they use the scriptures to "fill up" their website, so they don't have a website that is awkwardly lacking information because they really don't care about their dogs. *


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## Herschel

I'm sorry I have to post more of this *swear word* website, but I just have to vent my anger here. They claim that this "breed" they are "breeding" is also known as petite golden retriever, small golden retriever, little golden retriever. Why so many names? Dogs are live animals, not something you toy with. 

_"I realize at this time that there are some breeders creeping up that are trying to breed the "miniature golden retriever". I just pray that they use good tempered, quality stock that will represent the "golden retriever" in a positive way. Only lacking in size and some of the health issues attributed to its larger size. Unfortunately.....some breeders do post a lot of propaganda that is not even accurate. Cockers verses poodles. C'mon, we ALL know about grandmas mini poodle protectively guarding her lap just waiting to pounce on ANY grandchild that gets too close. Cockers can have issues as well. Although....in all honesty, I have have seen way more poodle issues than cocker issues. Personally, I am not into breeding poodles OR cockers! That is why we raise high percentage, (golden retriever) time tested lines. I do own a few poodles. I know how they can be. I also know that often it is the trainer/family that unknowingly causes the problem. ;o( At any rate, over the course of about 8 years, we have had 3 dogs have aggression issues. 2 out of the 3 were brought back here and rehabilitated. Proving that it was indeed, not the dog, but the trainer. What we focus on here is health, size, temperament and type as well as disposition. We want BEAUTIFUL, well preportioned, good natured, easy to train miniature golden retrievers with a smaller body. :O) The main things to consider with our dogs is not the "percentage" of golden but rather the energy level, gender (if that is important to you) and size. All of our Miniature Golden Retrievers act like golden retrievers because by now.....they pretty much "are" golden retrievers. We carefully chose our breeding stock to make the best miniature golden retriever we possibly could. Now you are seeing the fruit of that early endeavor. God is good!"_ (by the way, endeavor is supposed to be endeavour)

That is a portion of their website on their Home page. I want to point out some faults in that section. Okay, I think there are at least three or four breeders attempting to do this. Which is of course a terrible thing. But it is another thing to claim that you are better than all of these other "breeders". It is bad to insult when you are equally bad or even worse. 

To the crazy lady: Stop rambling about mini poodles. Yes they can be hyper, and yes, I like cockers more than poodles, but stop stop just saying that the other so called breeders are *worse* and actually prove why you are *good*. (which of course is impossible to prove)

Over the course of 8 years, three dogs have had aggression issues. I don't believe that. Probably about thirty considering the amount of dogs they breed. 

Do they really want beautiful, good natured, well proportioned, and easy to train dogs? Don't think so. By the way, golden retrievers are better in every aspect, even size. I prefer big dogs where I don't have to bend down to pet. 

And finally, their dogs aren't golden retrievers. They will never be golden retrievers. The fake breed "miniature" golden retrievers lack responsible breeders (and why would any responsible breeders breed those dogs?). They will always have many health issues and temperament issues. End of story. 

Again, it seems as if they are having some "available adults". They actually mentioned that 
*some* of their adults are housebroken and dog door trained. Shouldn't they all be, in addition to manners and tricks? And they are saying that these dogs 'love to come inside the house', which means that they don't live in the house, which means they live in the filth outside. 

Oh, and they have started making videos. Look at them and you'll be creeped out.


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## Prism Goldens

Modulo said:


> My personal opinion is that it does not matter if they put scriptures on their website or not...someone who does that could still be a responsible breeder, but NOT THEM. *However, it seems as if they use the scriptures to "fill up" their website, so they don't have a website that is awkwardly lacking information because they really don't care about their dogs. *


I think honestly that the breeders who do this do it to lend themselves some ethic and repute that they do not deserve.


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## Herschel

Yes, I agree. Almost everyone has this link -- people who are religious are more trustworthy. Obviously it is not true, at least in this case. (sorry if I am offending anyone here)


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## KarinGies

*I love my Miniature Golden Retriever and I would purchase from this breeder again.*

I purchased a "retired adult" dog from C&S Ranch early this spring. It doesn't matter how many dogs I meet on the street, none are as cute or as obedient as Liberty, my 30 pound miniature golden. She doesn't bark when people come to the door, she goes outside when she has to do her business, and she responds to every command willingly. Most adorable is how she showers us with affection. Oh, and did I mention she looks like a puppy even though she is 4 years old? The puppy stage is soooo cute...so glad I have a dog that perpetually looks like a puppy but behaves like a calm and mature dog. A dog this well socialized can only come from a professional operation.

I think it's laughable, but mostly sad, that people who know very little about this breed or this business will post all sorts of opinions on forums like these. I suggest talking to folks who have actually purchased a dog from this breeder, if you want to do your full research. I am happy to answer questions if folks out there have some.

Thanks Shannon, for our little treasure. Will be in contact in the spring to purchase our second dog.


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## Jmcarp83

The last post screams to be an ad. There is no such thing as a miniature golden retriever. It is a mixed “designer” dog. Plain and simple.


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## Megora

> It doesn't matter how many dogs I meet on the street, none are as cute or as obedient as Liberty, my 30 pound miniature golden.


Yet no picture posted for us to judge how "cute" she is....????? 0

A lot of these mutt-mutts look the same to me - and a lot of them are very cute. I think all dogs are cute - general, even while privately thinking some are cute but very funky looking. 



> Oh, and did I mention she looks like a puppy even though she is 4 years old?


This is actually a reason why a lot of people get small dogs. They like the compact size, and the dogs stay snuggly and sweet for years + live longer lives than the big breeds. 

You don't have to purchase a mutt from a questionable breeder to get something like that. If you just put the time into breed education - anyone can find a dog that's perfect for them WITHOUT buying somebody's half-baked experiments.



> I think it's laughable, but mostly sad, that people who know very little about this breed or this business will post all sorts of opinions on forums like these.


This is basically a rubber band remark. 

Please get a little more education on dog breeds - their history, their purpose, the health problems with the different breeds, chit chat/listen to long time upstanding breeders of those breeds. Don't scrape the bottom of the barrel.


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## Goldens&Friesians

I wasn't going to get into this drama, but I can't help it! Telling people to get more educated about the breeds before commenting? Are you aware of just how educated someone like Prism is??? Are you getting your "education" from your miniature golden breeder? Because I promise that is not a good resource for education on responsible breeding. Creating your own breed with no purpose other than making money is the opposite of responsible breeding. And it sickens me that they have Bible verses all over the website! Prism is right about that, Bible verses=bad breeder. It makes me very upset! I'm a follower of Jesus and the Bible tells us to do all things as unto the Lord. Shouldn't that make you be the best most responsible breeder you can be? Because you wouldn't want to give God a puppy that was anything but the best with the best chance at being healthy and sound and good temperament. Not breeding responsibly-isn't that kind of a poor Christian witness? I went to the website of this breeder and she has right on the home page in highlighted letters something about us people bashing her on GRF and is currently creating a page to defend herself against GRF comments. Sorry, but I'll trust GRF over a mutt breeder breeding for highest profit any day. Didn't look any further into the website because I'm afraid it will make me even more upset with this breeder, but I might have to later just for curiosity's sake.


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## puddles everywhere

What boggles my mind the most is paying the outrageous price for a mixed breed dog. Haven't any of these people heard of RESCUE!?
I realize the rescue are full of pits and pit mixes but for $49. you can rescue a great dog and this includes spay/neuter, shots, microchip and city license. They get puppies too! You just have to visit often and let them know what you are looking for... the shelter is happy to take your name and let you know when they have a prospect.
Honestly, why would you support a breeder that is part of the reason for so many dogs in the shelters!!!


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## Gleepers

Well, I paid about $450 for my rescued “mini retriever”. We think he is Tibetan Spaniel/golden mix as a best guess. He is just a smidge over 30lbs. 
It’s a pretty average price for our local rescues. The shelters run around $300 for a puppy. Sort of amazing how much it is for a mutt. 
I think I may have seen the above site when I was trying to figure out what Ted was made of.


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## Sweet Girl

KarinGies said:


> I purchased a "retired adult" dog from C&S Ranch early this spring. It doesn't matter how many dogs I meet on the street, none are as cute or as obedient as Liberty, my 30 pound miniature golden. She doesn't bark when people come to the door, she goes outside when she has to do her business, and she responds to every command willingly. Most adorable is how she showers us with affection. Oh, and did I mention she looks like a puppy even though she is 4 years old? The puppy stage is soooo cute...so glad I have a dog that perpetually looks like a puppy but behaves like a calm and mature dog. A dog this well socialized can only come from a professional operation.
> 
> I think it's laughable, but mostly sad, that people who know very little about this breed or this business will post all sorts of opinions on forums like these. I suggest talking to folks who have actually purchased a dog from this breeder, if you want to do your full research. I am happy to answer questions if folks out there have some.
> 
> Thanks Shannon, for our little treasure. Will be in contact in the spring to purchase our second dog.





Jmcarp83 said:


> The last post screams to be an ad. There is no such thing as a miniature golden retriever. It is a mixed “designer” dog. Plain and simple.



OMG - I had the EXACT same reaction! I thought, man, I hope you got paid well for this ad. 


BTW, my 45 pound full Golden Retriever also showers me with love, responds to every command, goes to the bathroom outside, and gets mistaken for a puppy on a regular basis even though she behaves like a mature Golden Retriever. Go figure.


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## Prism Goldens

Well, since the owner of this mixed breed joint is reading these posts, I would ask two things- one: well preportioned (from your front page touting these mix breeds) .... what is that? A dog that comes in a measured pouch?

and two: prove it. Prove by showing your pedigrees that you have Barty, Gold Rush, Top Brass behind your breeding animals. 

No good breeder would ever in a million years sell you an animal from these lines, so if indeed you do have them, it was not on breeding basis. But I am not believing until I see pedigrees that name you as owner. 
I thought of a quick third question: why are you doing this to our breed?


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## DblTrblGolden2

I just saw this and all I can say is this makes me SICK!!! Does anyone think she possibly sells all those puppies she breeds?? What does she do with the ones that don't sell? I should have never looked at her website (if you can even call it that). I spent my lunch today on the phone with Purina going over dog foods with all the issues that have come up lately to make sure my guys are getting everything they need specific to the breed and then we have this.... No one that has ever loved a Golden would do this, EVER!!!


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## KarinGies

*Someone mentioned wanting a picture of Liberty (my miniature) to verify cuteness? *

Can someone instruct me how to do this? I am dying to show her off!  I'm new to this forum, and I'll keep looking...hopefully I can figure it out....


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## KarinGies

Ah, I think I've figured it out! I can share more if anyone is interested. This is Liberty.


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## KarinGies

I can't help myself!!!! I have to post one more.

At the moment I'm dog sitting my best friend's Havenese, Liberty's best bud. I am reminded how different dog temperaments can be and I am so glad for what we ended up getting. However, it would be great if Liberty had the same shedding condition as the Havanese...which is NONE! She shed a lot when she first came to Vancouver. Change in environment I guess? It did slow down as the summer progressed.


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## Megora

What is the other part of the mix? Cocker spaniel? 

She's cute.


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## KarinGies

Thanks! I'm actually not sure. The website said she was 82% Golden. Our groomer says the little bit of extra cheek fur is spaniel...goldens apparently don't have that. So, probably cocker? But the website also mentioned using poodles in their program, so I can't be sure.


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## Brave

She reminds me of my mutt, whom was advertised as a flat coat retriever mix (but I think she has some border collie in her)


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## KarinGies

Oh, both your dogs are GORGEOUS!


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## Megora

@Brave - the bit about the flat coated mix reminded me of a really funny incidence today. Ran to a petstore to stock up on chews for the pup and a woman came up and asked if Jovi was a shitsu mix. LOL.

I looked at her and just said, "No, he's a golden retriever."

And she was just kept raving about how cute and fuzzy he looked and she didn't realize golden retriever puppies looked like that. Then she started telling me about a black golden retriever that her friend had growing up. 

I had a chuckle but didn't really say anything. 

I just think that with all of the mixed breeds out there - both the rescue people falsely advertising some of the pups (who have a LOT of stuff in them to make a very unique dog that you are adopting) and some of the greeders deliberately producing mixes, I just don't think people know anything about purebred dogs anymore.


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## Brave

@Megora - I've been asked like 3 times if Lana is a doodle.  @KarinGies - Thanks! We think our newest addition is pretty spectacular. I hope you understand that when people look at a breeder and question their program and priorities, it's often times natural for buyers to get defensive cause they bought a dog from that program. Criticisms on a breeder/program does not mean we're criticizing the buyers. There are some very valid concerns re: the breeding program referenced in this thread and I encourage you to hang around and keep sharing photos of your dog (I like having a photo journal thread so I can see the dog grow up, so you might want to start your own thread to share your love) and asking questions and try to see things from our side of the fence. 

Are mutts and mixes awesome? Yes, absolutely! Are they worth $1700+? Nope. Should they be bred with no regard to the hereditary risks? Nope! As is the same with doodle breeders, when you mix breeds you have to account for the genetic problems from both breeds. If you don't know what breeds are going into your dog, it's hard to predict how they will act or what health concerns you should be aware of. Reputable breeders provide clearances for their breeding stock and these clearances are breed dependent (you can find what health tests are required by parent breed clubs here: https://www.ofa.org/browse-by-breed). 

Golden retreivers should have 4 core clearances (and there are a handful of non-core clearances too) which are hips and elbows cleared by OFA (or PennHip and posted on OFA) after 24 months of age, heart cleared by a cardiologist after 12 months of age, eyes cleared annually by an opthamologist. 

If the breeding stock has cocker spaniel in it, then it needs it's eyes done annuallly and it's hips checked (just like goldens).

If the breeding stock has poodle in it, then it needs PRA DNA test, eyes annually, hips and patella luxation (kneecaps) cleared and posted on OFA. 

These tests are recommended for a reason. Progressive retinal atrophy, hip dysplasia, elbow displasia, subvalvular aortic stenosis, Pigmentary Uveitis... these are all serious health concerns that reputable breeders are doing their best to breed OUT of existence. But if you don't test for it, you'll never know if your breeding program and breeding stock is promoting horrible genetics. 

That's why people take offense when greeders come in and breed willy nilly with no care or concern for the puppies they put on the ground (and ultimately the families that will be left heartbroken when those puppies encounter serious and debillitating problems or die too soon).


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## KarinGies

Hi Brave. Thanks for the medical advice. That is good to know what to be on the look out for.  And thank you for your lovely tone. Posts can sound pretty aggressive on forums like this, so it's always nice to encounter folks who share with kindness and respect.

I would like to make a simple correction regarding the source of my "defensiveness." I am over the moon with our choice, so I'm not feeling defensive about that. I was feeling defensive on behalf of another human being. I don't like it when people are so mean to each other. And since I had such a good experience with this breeder, I felt compelled to speak up. I hope people will do the same for me when a mob of internet users start tearing me or my work down.

Having said that, now that I have been introduced to this forum, I look forward to coming here often with questions I have about Liberty. Glad it exists! Glad people like you take the time to pass on their knowledge.

Oh, and I like your suggestion of a photo thread, however since Liberty is fully grown, the photos probably won't change much. However, I may just do that with the miniature we plan on getting next spring!


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## Prism Goldens

KarinGies said:


> I would like to make a simple correction regarding the source of my "defensiveness." I was feeling defensive on behalf of another human being. I don't like it when people are so mean to each other. And since I had such a good experience with this breeder, I felt compelled to speak up. I hope people will do the same for me when a mob of internet users start tearing me or my work down.


No one here is mean to other humans. We are defending the breed we love, and this person's "work" as you call it is basically to create mixed breed puppies and charge a lot of $$ for them all the while doing nothing for the breed she's destroying. There is no such thing as a miniature Golden. And while you might like this person, she is not reputable.


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## LJack

Also, businesses are and should be subject to review, especially when business practices are unethical. When a person engages in business, an honest and informed review of the product they produce or the methods they use to produce it is not mean. 

In dogs, each breed has prescribed testing that should be done on parent dogs. She is not doing that. She is purposely perpetuating the falsehoods about mix breed dogs and charging an exorbitant price for them based on similar mix breeds available across the country in shelters and doodle rescues. 

None of that evaluation (which is the main points of previous posts) of a business strikes me as unkind, spiteful or unfair. 

You review of the more customer service factors is certainly valid. It just doesn’t negate the valid point surrounding unethical breeding practices.


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## KarinGies

*Updated photo of our mini-golden*

We've had Libby for just over a year. We adopted her as a 4 year old. Have loved every second of it.


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## Megora

She's a cute cocker mix. 

A lot of the cocker mixes out there (cockapoos, etc) are hit or miss. They don't always turn out that well + they get pretty fat thanks to their owners. 

The people out there who are very careful about feeding their small dogs - it's amazing how little the dogs are fed! 

Took a class with a woman with a lovely cockapoo (I do see some very sweet and pretty ones out there that are more cocker than the rest of the mix) - and holy crow. The amount of kibble the dog got in a meal was a mouthful for my guys!

I guess this is an extra note to be careful with the amount of food and weight. A lot of little dogs (mixed or whatever) get so fat. It's pretty sad to see.


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## KarinGies

Hi Megora! Hmmm... she has put on a few pounds. How does one go about figuring out how to safely trim her down? She is active, one hour a walk per day, but does stay sedentry the rest of the day.


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## AyraParent

The photo in reply #161 is a terrible photo-shop job.

Just look at the woman's left shoulder/arm and how it goes around the dog in the photo. Almost looks like an entire person (a man?) was cut out from that picture. I've read this thread and I know that a person asked for photos of the dog and this is what was provided.

Even one alteration of an image is enough to convince me that the whole image is not to be trusted. If I cannot trust the image then I cannot trust the person who posted that image.


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## Maggie'sVoice

AyraParent said:


> The photo in reply #161 is a terrible photo-shop job.
> 
> Just look at the woman's left shoulder/arm and how it goes around the dog in the photo. Almost looks like an entire person (a man?) was cut out from that picture. I've read this thread and I know that a person asked for photos of the dog and this is what was provided.
> 
> Even one alteration of an image is enough to convince me that the whole image is not to be trusted. If I cannot trust the image then I cannot trust the person who posted that image.


Lol Uuuh, wut?


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## Emmdenn

LOL her left arm is resting on her husband's bent knee......??


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## Prism Goldens

that is a woman's arm...


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## KarinGies

*What?*

Hmmm. Not really sure what folks are trying to suggest about photo. My husband and I are celebrating 25 years of marriage this year and thought we'd have photos taken. Our dog cooperated for some of the photos...not so much for others. We had a lovely 12th grader take photos for us on the beach to be dispalyed at our anniversary party. Am happy to recommend her to others who are in the Vancouver area and looking for a photographer. I will post a few more in case someone is looking for this service (you can DM me if you want her name/number).


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## KarinGies

*one more photo*

Our party is June 1...praying for good weather because we don't have an indoor back up plan!


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## KarinGies

*Last one*

No dog in this photo...but the photographer's skills are showcased. Again, happy to provide her contact info.


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## jdavisryan

KarinGies said:


> Hmmm. Not really sure what folks are trying to suggest about photo. My husband and I are celebrating 25 years of marriage this year and thought we'd have photos taken. Our dog cooperated for some of the photos...not so much for others. We had a lovely 12th grader take photos for us on the beach to be dispalyed at our anniversary party. Am happy to recommend her to others who are in the Vancouver area and looking for a photographer. I will post a few more in case someone is looking for this service (you can DM me if you want her name/number).


Congratulations on your anniversary. The photos are lovely and your dog is a sweetheart.


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## KarinGies

Thank you, jdavisryan! Your kind words mean a lot.


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## Megora

Karin - I think we were all very confused by the picture photoshop comments. 

The pics were nice.

Happy Anniversary<:


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## CAROLINA MOM

Happy Anniversary to you and your husband, enjoy the celebration. 
The pictures are great!


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