# HELP Training-Corrective vs. Rewards Based?



## mayapaya (Sep 28, 2011)

I could use some advise. I know there is probably a happy medium/balance to these training methods, and I am trying to find the right approach for Maya. I have attended 3 classes at a local Petsmart, puppy and itermediate, which we attended twice. Rewards based training with Maya (treats/praise) only works in some instances. As an example, "come" and "sit/stays" are now periodically ignored. Secondly, there are some behavior issues I need to correct. (jumping). Leash walking is not a problem with her on a halter type collar (although jumping at passer's by is) So, without doing much research (my fault) I took a recommendation from a few friends who has used a trainer in my area. In our brief conversation she stated that the class did not use treats, but rather praise/correction type training. I decided to try it and took Maya to the first class over the weekend. Much to my horror, I found this instructor is utilizing the Kohler method of training. (where I beleive in week #3 we are to start throwing a chain at the dog to get their attention) Needless to say, I will not be returning. I need to find the right plan to put in place for Maya--correct a few behaviors, and work on some basic commands that she is choosing to ignore. I am at a loss as to what to do first and even how to approach it. Maybe I need to take one issue to focus on at a time???? and if that's the route I go, what techniques have worked for you?


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## GinnyinPA (Oct 31, 2010)

How much time are you spending training? Try to take time every single day to work on obedience commands. It doesn't have to be much time - just 10 minutes or so before dinner (taking advantage of the fact that your pup is hungry and thus more willing to listen in order to get food). 

You can also do the NILIF (Nothing in Life is Free) type training so that Maya gets nothing without doing some sort of obedience command first. i.e. want to go out? Then sit and stay. Want to go for a walk? Well lie down on command first, etc. Before serving dinner, make Maya sit and stay for a minute. Incorporate obedience training in everything you do with her.

Our trainer told us when working on 'come' to ALWAYS reward come. Make it so that it is the one command that your dog will always want to hear and obey. 

As to jumping on people: teach Maya to sit or lie down when people approach. If she tries to jump up, ask the person to back off and only come near if Maya is in position.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Maybe somebody who trains in the Chicago area could tip you in the direction of a _balanced_ trainer? 

The way I train I use pop corrections and verbal corrections. And I do believe that with some dogs and certain cases, stronger corrections may be necessary. Depending how they are given, they are going to be fine and they are not going to "break" the dog. 

I had no idea what throw chains were until somebody here on GRF explained what they were in one of the training threads. I've never seen them where I train. 

I would prefer a treat/praised based style of training, but I think you shape and guide behaviors with corrections and physically putting the dog in the right position. 

The 12 o'clock sit vs luring with treats, for example. 



> As an example, "come" and "sit/stays" are now periodically ignored. Secondly, there are some behavior issues I need to correct. (jumping). Leash walking is not a problem with her on a halter type collar (although jumping at passer's by is)


If your dog is ignoring your commands, it is possible that she doesn't understand what you want or is ready for the level of "test" that you are giving her. 

Never repeat a command. Ever. 

If the dog does not sit on command, than you do the 12 o'clock sit. Or pull out your lure. And help her do the sit. And for the next few repetitions, you are asking for sit and putting her into sit and praising her like she did the most wonderful thing. 

Stay - I don't know how old your dog is or where she is in her stay progress, but this is something that takes time and success to build on. There are those of us (ahem) who are still reinforcing stays daily with our older and polished dogs. If she breaks a stay, back up to the type of stay where you know she will be successful. Shorter duration, shorter distance from you, even you standing there and holding the leash. Give yourself lots of opportunities to praise her for doing something good vs having to correct her. 

Jumping, I would prevent this as much as possible with other people. They do grow out of this with a little time. Until then a hand on the collar keeps their front feet grounded. I would not avoid people with her, but remind them she's in training and have your hand in there to keep her feet on the ground.


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## mayapaya (Sep 28, 2011)

Maya will be a year old on the 27th of March. Much of this ignoring behavior started around month 8-9. I will have to own up to the fact that I have not worked on down/stays as much as I should have and for longer durations. That is something I have to begin in earnest. As for "come", it is hit and miss. when we practice with treats, and she knows I have them--she listens--most of the time. If I don't have them, then I praise her when she comes. Other times, she will just look at me and stand there. It is very frustrating. And, I've found myself repeating myself, which I KNOW is a no-no. I need something to get her attention--maybe going back to working with a long line again, and giving it a tug when she doesn't respond???? As for the jumping, I need to start using some time of correction. I can't grab her collar anymore, as then I am wrestling with a 60 pound dog, and I weigh in at about 110 pounds, so I am inevitably losing the battle of control. I am not familiar with w/a 12 oclock sit???

I had never heard of the Kohler method until this class I went to over the weekend. When I got home, I did more research, and this definately is not a method I can adapt to. Throwing a chain at your dog???? UGH!!!! I am going to do some additional research on some personal trainers in my area, and if anyone here has suggestions/and or recommendations, I would appreciate it!


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Some of the ignoring previously learned commands is from her adolescent age don't you think? Most dogs do try to blow off mom and dad during this phase and will calm down later. With that said, you're right in that you can't let her blow you off or it will become permanent behavior. 

I have used a combination of aversive and reward training with Tucker when he got stuck on something, but usually for stopping a behavior (peeing on rug) rather than for trying to encourage one (come to momma). 

I think the ideas above about constant daily training are probably your best bet. The recall training is really hard sometimes. Perhaps you can practice that every day at home. We used to practice "go to xxxxx" and "come" together with Tess (now that I think of it, we should be doing that with Tucker! It's just harder to do with two dogs in the house.). You have two people with treats. One calls the dog with come. Has dog sit and get a treat then says "go to Jack/Jill/mommy!", the other person quickly says "come!". When dog arrives repeat sit, treat etc. it teaches the dog the persons name, to go and find the person, and reinforces the recall training. Also exercises the dog! 

Wanted to add, I've never used the compressed air can for correction but it sounds effective. Perhaps you could use that on walks to work her on the not jumping, getting excited behavior.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I can't grab her collar anymore, as then I am wrestling with a 60 pound dog, and I weigh in at about 110 pounds


Yes you can! I was 110 when I was training my 76-85lb Danny. I just used the same muscles I used when controlling a 1000+ lb pulling horse. 

It sounds like she just needs a stronger foundation probably. And keep in mind she is still a baby and is at the most hyper point of her life. It is very common around this time for people to be getting frustrated. 

Maybe PM Barb (Hotel4Dogs) to see if she knows any good trainers in the Chicago area?


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## mayapaya (Sep 28, 2011)

I will send her a PM. Thanks. Also, what is a 12 o'clock sit??????? I'm impressed at your strength, Megora!!! I could probably keep Maya in check if she wasn't so squirmy, but she has literally twisted her nylon collar around my fingers in an attempt to escape my grasp......


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

12 o'clock sit =

Leash in right hand / treat in right hand
Left hand hovers behind over the dog's rear

Leash and treat go straight up (think 12 o'clock position on the clock).
Left hand gently guides the dog's rear down. 

^ This is really if your dog does not know how to sit properly and the luring isn't working. 

If you taught sit by luring, that should be fine, but it does take a lot of practice with the treat luring upward (think 12 o'clock) while telling the dog to sit, building distractions and difficulties over time as your dog is successful, before your dog will sit on command in any situation with no treat on your person, etc. 

I raked leaves for 2+ hours on Saturday. *holds aching back* I'm not feeling that strong right now.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Reward based training is very effective and humane. Punishment hurts your relationship with your dog, and produces side effects if it is not 100 percent fair with ideal timing.I would avoid aversive methods.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> Reward based training is very effective and humane. Punishment hurts your relationship with your dog, and produces side effects if it is not 100 percent fair with ideal timing.I would avoid aversive methods.


I technically use reward based training... but I use corrections (aversive methods) as well. I agree timing and KNOWLEDGE are the two most important things if you use corrections. 

You have to know how much correction is too much for your dog. 

We were discussing this at class last night and there was somebody with a male Tuveran who was comparing him to his mother. With his mother, a little scruff shake would have been quite a lot of punishment for her. With her male, she said it would have been nothing. Keep in mind that these dogs are herding breeds and huge. So distraction is a bigger problem for them vs goldens. They see other dogs running and their instincts tell them to chase. And because they "stare" and get into dog's face, they are very likely to get their faces ripped off by some scared dog.

They drew me into the conversation with the instructor... at which point I mentioned that the most effective punishment for my dog was me walking up to him, looking at him and frowning. I do not have to do anything more than that to get the point across that he did wrong and we have to fix what he was doing. 

As far as using chains. I asked my instructor last night and she's never used them with a dog _learning_ focus. She pulled a chain out yesterday (it was a choke chain, so not a heavy LOUD chain) while teaching somebody to drop their dog (they call their dog to come and when he's about halfway they give him a hand signal to drop into a down). That was a situation where she used a chain. The hand that gives a hand signal to drop threw the chain straight down (not AT the dog). This was enough to startle the dog and make him pay attention to that hand.


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## Mb190e (Feb 7, 2012)

I don't use a chain but I have and do use a soda can with a few nuts and bolts in it and shake it to get there attention and stop unwanted behavior eating plants, jumping on people, jumping on furniture and biting.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

A few articles for your consideration.

What are the Implications of Using Training Techniques Which Induce Fear or Pain in Dogs? 
'Decrease the dog’s ability to learn" (I think this is a very key point in this article)


What's wrong with using ‘dominance&rs to explain the behaviour of dogs? 


Traditional Dog Training Methods and Behavior Problems Discusses the Kohler method.

there was a recent survey and study that suggests that aversive training affects the owner dog relationship in a very negative way. I will look for it and put it in the post when I find it.

Here is the link to an article on the subject.

If You're Aggressive, Your Dog Will Be, Too, Says Veterinary Study at University of Pennsylvania | Penn News 

"training technique they employed. Of the 140 surveys completed, the most frequently listed recommendation sources were “self” and “trainers.” Several confrontational methods such as “hit or kick dog for undesirable behavior” (43 percent),
“growl at dog” (41 percent),
“physically force the release of an item from a dog's mouth” (39 percent),
“alpha roll”physically -- rolling the dog onto its back and holding it (31 percent),
“stare at or stare down” (30 percent),
“dominance down” —- physically forcing the dog down onto its side (29 percent)
and “grab dog by jowls and shake” (26 percent)
elicited an aggressive response from at least 25 percent of the dogs on which they were attempted. In addition, dogs brought to the hospital for aggressive behavior towards familiar people were more likely to respond aggressively to some confrontational techniques than dogs brought in for other behavioral reasons."

This is all generalized below.
The problem with training mostly with aversives (positive punishments) is when the punishment you are using no longer works (gets the desired result) the owner has to up the anti and use something harsher.
If shaking the noisy can no longer works what will be your next step in positive punishment?
If spraying the water bottle no longer works what will be your next step in positive punishment?
If popping the leash no longer works what will be your next step in positive punishment?
If grabbing the collar no longer works (dog won't get close enough) what will be your next step in positive punishment?
How far in aversives (positive punishment) are you willing to go?
The dog loses trust and that breaks our bond with our loving pet. 
Each of us has to look at this and decide is this the type of relationship we want with the dog we love.

It is a lot easier to use aversives (positive punishment) as these methods are usually actions. Grabbing the collar, popping the collar, shaking the can, yelling at the dog. 
Negative punishment is a lot harder and we really have to think to apply this to our dogs be consistent and also be patient. These are things that are no action. Not giving the reward. (praise, treat, toy, game, attention) It is hard to just not do anything.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I was thinking about last night after I read this thread and the way I would go about training him not jump on people when you are walking would like this. When you are walking and you see people walking toward you get you and your dog off to the side and put him in a sit/stay. This will be good obedience training too. Once the people have walked past and your dog has remained in the sit/stay praise give a treat if you want and then move on. You probably encounter alot of people on your walks and this is time consuming but I believe it is the best way to stop the jumping.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

^^^ You know... it is very hard to disagree with those articles considering the extreme examples they use.  Holy cow.



> The contributions of trainers such as Most and Koehler are not to be dismissed. It should also be said that there are some incredibly good, ethical traditional trainers still around today. These trainers understand how to work with minimal discomfort for the dog and "corrections" are so well timed that the trainer has to use very few to get the desired response.
> 
> However, if a trainer must continually use corrections or must repeatedly increase the level of correction (such as switching to more and more aversive collars), causes injury to the dog, or causes the dog to yelp or scream in pain or fear, *the dog is not learning and is not being trained*. This is when dog owners need to step in and protect their dogs from further abuse and seek a second (and even third) opinion.


100% agree with this. And going further... or it goes back to my previous comment. People who use corrections in their training do not use the same blanket level of correction or pressure that would be used with any dog. They use what is adequate for their dog. 

I think they used extreme examples here - dogs screaming or yelping. In most cases, corrections if they are too much for the dog cause evasion or submissive posturing. Or pulling away. That is something I do not want to see from my dog. That is the point where the owner/trainer needs to try a different method or tell their instructor they want to try a different method.


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## mayapaya (Sep 28, 2011)

Wow.....thanks to all for sharing information and thoughts on this topic. Alot to digest, but extremely helpful. One of the reasons I decided this training method was not for us (besides what I read and researched) was simply observing some of the other dogs in the class. The first class was devoted to long line leash walking with the prong collar. The intent was to move in different directions, stop, turn, all the while guiding the dog to your side. If the dog was not following closely, a quick tug, and the handler would move in another direction. Every dog yelped/cried out at one point in time. And, at one point the instructor accidently stepped on the long line and yanked the dog who was closely following--which resulted in another yelp in pain. By the time it was our turn, I could see Maya's demeanor had changed. No more tail wagging as she usually is in class. She clearly picked up on the negative vibes. Clearly there are better training methods out there, and I think as many have pointed out here--not "one size fits all".


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think we all try for balance. Very few people completely eschew all positive punishment, and pretty much nobody trains only with aversives. Most of us are somewhere on the continuum.

However, there's a good argument to be made in favor of positive reinforcement as the strongest motivator of behavior, and there are definitely some big problems with misapplied aversives. So I try to move towards the positive reinforcement part of the spectrum wherever it's practical.

I think it's generally faster and easier to teach a dog to do something than to get him to stop doing something that's self-reinforcing. So when you're trying to get a dog to stop doing something that's self-reinforcing (like jumping on company), I think it's more time-effective and nicer to the dog to train an alternative behavior rather than trying to use an aversive to reduce the frequency of the undesired behavior.

For example, it's easier (and in my book, nicer) to positively reinforce a dog for keeping all four paws on the ground and sitting nicely for company, as opposed to using an aversive to teach him not to jump up. You can certainly combine the two, but in my experience, the aversive is confusing and energizing to the dog more often than it's helpful in reducing the unwanted behavior. Maybe that's because I don't feel good doing the aversive, and maybe that's because the aversive simply isn't as effective, or maybe both.

I've learned, over time, that the "bad dog" part of the training wasn't as crucial to success as I originally thought, so in a lot of situations, I've phased it out. I teach polite greeting with no aversives at all at this point. I just wait out the undesired behavior and teach the dog that it makes me boring, and then I reinforce the desired behavior when I see it. Goldens seem to learn super quickly that the undesired stuff doesn't work; they don't have to learn that it's "bad" or leads to punishment.

So I really like this general model for problem behaviors:

withhold reinforcement for undesired behavior
remove excitement from excitement-driven bad behaviors
wait through the extinction burst when the dog tries the bad thing extra hard before giving up
reward desired behavior when the dog finally tries it (or partial behavior if you can't get the full desired behavior)

Lather, rinse, repeat. It's worked beautifully for me with jumping, leash behavior, and puppy biting, polite door behavior, greetings, etc.

As a side note, I don't really like pushing dogs into position, especially for things like sit and down. Maybe I'd be better at it if I did it more, but dogs always seem to push back when I push them, so I end up feeling like I'm forcing the dog, which I find unpleasant. I also think the dog "gets" it more when he initiates the motion himself and is rewarded, so I try to figure out creative ways to get the dog to initiate.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

PS - if a dog cries out, recoils from an aversive, or shows fear behavior in training, that's something I'd run away from. A mild aversive may be necessary here and there in training, but if you have to terrorize a dog to get what you want, that seems ineffective and not so nice. 

If an aversive has to be continuously escalated in order to work, that means you're using it wrong.


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## mayapaya (Sep 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> PS - if a dog cries out, recoils from an aversive, or shows fear behavior in training, that's something I'd run away from. A mild aversive may be necessary here and there in training, but if you have to terrorize a dog to get what you want, that seems ineffective and not so nice.
> 
> If an aversive has to be continuously escalated in order to work, that means you're using it wrong.


Can you explain further your "four paws on the ground"technique? I have tried to pur Maya into a sit/stay when company arrives, but her excitement level is over the top. I have not used the prong or chain collar on her--she has a nylon collar, but pulls forcefully. We have tried have people ignore her until she sits nicely, but within seconds she is jumping again. Some of this is behavior is of my own doing--younger daughter would allow Maya to jump on her to "hug" her, so we've been correcting this in our family situation. When guests arrive--it's a different story. I've also noticed a bit more jumping as of late due to the arrival of the new puppy--when anyone is paying attention to the pup, Maya jumps on them to get attention. Thanks!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

mayapaya said:


> Can you explain further your "four paws on the ground"technique? I have tried to pur Maya into a sit/stay when company arrives, but her excitement level is over the top. I have not used the prong or chain collar on her--she has a nylon collar, but pulls forcefully. We have tried have people ignore her until she sits nicely, but within seconds she is jumping again. Some of this is behavior is of my own doing--younger daughter would allow Maya to jump on her to "hug" her, so we've been correcting this in our family situation. When guests arrive--it's a different story. I've also noticed a bit more jumping as of late due to the arrival of the new puppy--when anyone is paying attention to the pup, Maya jumps on them to get attention. Thanks!


You set a strong foundation of "sit" in a controlled foundation when the dog is calmer. Often, we forget to reinforce "sit" as something that should happen instantly on the first command. We take for granted that the dog will sort of do it and forget to reward effectively. So take the opportunity to teach her that sitting politely leads to good things. 

Once that foundation is laid, you can add some energy and keep reinforcing it. Play outside with the kids and reinforce Maya for polite sits on command in that higher-energy environment. If you find yourself having to repeat the command, return to the low energy situation to practice. You want to reward success and prevent blown commands from happening in the first place.

Then get some practice guests who are willing to train with you. They need to completely ignore her when they arrive. This process is FAR easier if you don't try to train it when the dog is the most energized (i.e., when people first arrive). She needs to be an invisible dog for at least the first ten minutes company is over. That means no eye contact with her, no talking to her, and slow, mellow behavior from the guests. If she mauls them anyway, they need to turn and face the wall and fold their arms until she gives up.

You can punish the dog here to try to accelerate the process, but I prefer not to, since there's so much energy in the situation to begin with.

After ten or fifteen minutes, they can help train her. If she will sit for them, have them tell her to sit, and have them reward her with a treat or attention when she behaves politely. They need to stop INSTANTLY if she begins to jump up. I find it's more effective if the "guest" withholds eye contact, voice, and touch instead of saying "no." The "no" can be confusing, as it's sort of like the attention she wants.

This way, you can teach her that guests only interact when she's offering desired behavior, and they don't interact when she's jumping. After all, the jumping up is just her attempt to be social and interact with their faces. Remove the social reinforcement and you remove her motivation.

Remember that when you use these methods, the dog will often actually get worse briefly. This is called an extinction burst, and it happens as the dog tries a previously successful behavior even harder in the hopes that it will start to work. If you change tactics (i.e., say "no!"), or accidentally reward her with attention, you risk teaching her to try even harder next time. Instead, continue ignoring her through the extinction burst and reward when she finally does what she's supposed to.

Lastly, if you have the problem that she sits but then goes back to bad behavior once a guest tries to reward her with a pet, you need a well-trained guest who can pet her while she's sitting and instantly stop when she breaks. The person will look a little silly at first (stopping and starting), but Maya should get the idea after a few repetitions. It also helps if you can make it a lower key situation in the first place by doing guest training after the guests have been ignoring her for a while.

Good luck! Don't forget that she's doing this because she's trying to be a good dog who loves new people. She just doesn't quite get how to express it appropriately.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> I think we all try for balance. Very few people completely eschew all positive punishment, and pretty much nobody trains only with aversives. Most of us are somewhere on the continuum.
> 
> However, there's a good argument to be made in favor of positive reinforcement as the strongest motivator of behavior, and there are definitely some big problems with misapplied aversives. So I try to move towards the positive reinforcement part of the spectrum wherever it's practical.


Thank you for the first paragraph. 

Second paragraph I think is VERY IMPORTANT when discussing training with people on online forums. And it's something that makes me a bit uncomfortable when people ask for ways to correct various things. There are very quick and painless corrections for almost everything a puppy does. They get right to the point and work. But the thing that scares me about offering tips like that online, is with every correction the level of correction (or punishment) is key. 

So let's take that 12 o'clock sit (for example). This is something I mainly did with Jacks when he was 8 weeks old. By the time he was 15 weeks old, I'd weaned off any guidance and he was doing instant sits at my side. 

Considering the very gentle and positive handling that is 100% necessary with puppies that young, I would not have done this method if it mean strangling, yanking, dragging, hitting, shoving or any other kind of harsh interpretation. 

Pop corrections is another thing. The degree I use is very mild and nothing more than chain rattling. The degree that somebody could interpret could be painful and injure a dog's throat. 

Alpha pins - if used appropriately by somebody who knows what they are doing, can actually be OK. But 99% of the time, you have angry or upset or erratic people "reacting" to something their dog has done. And these people should never ever try to use alpha pins, particularly as this method is not necessary with most dogs.

If people are not going to classes, not working under the eagle eye of an instructor who is quick to correct the trainer if they are manhandling their dog -* I would always recommend that people stay far away from using any kind of corrections.* 

And it's also why I flipped out when I realized that pet classes in my area are putting prongs on every dog. Stupidity. That's a side point.




tippykayak said:


> PS - if a dog cries out, recoils from an aversive, or shows fear behavior in training, that's something I'd run away from. A mild aversive may be necessary here and there in training, but if you have to terrorize a dog to get what you want, that seems ineffective and not so nice.
> 
> If an aversive has to be continuously escalated in order to work, that means you're using it wrong.


 
Totally agree. 

And in most cases, the trainers have to be smarter than their dogs and a step ahead - especially if the corrections or collars or other methods are no competition for that dogs' instincts.

Hand on collar and reinforcing all feet on the ground during visits, in other words. The worst in this in people trying to huggle your dog have to deal with you hand being in there holding onto the collar. :wave:


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> Second paragraph I think is VERY IMPORTANT when discussing training with people on online forums. And it's something that makes me a bit uncomfortable when people ask for ways to correct various things. There are very quick and painless corrections for almost everything a puppy does. They get right to the point and work. But the thing that scares me about offering tips like that online, is with every correction the level of correction (or punishment) is key.


Yeah...I find that aversive techniques take even more precision than positive reinforcement and have riskier side effects.



Megora said:


> Hand on collar and reinforcing all feet on the ground during visits, in other words. The worst in this in people trying to huggle your dog have to deal with you hand being in there holding onto the collar. :wave:


This is one thing I typically don't do, though I get why people do. Here's why I don't: I find the attention and the force you use to keep the dog from jumping actually energize the dog pretty significantly. I also have a hard time, with a truly problem jumper, with the amount of force it takes to keep the dog from jumping physically. I've known a couple of dogs who would happily throttle themselves in order to greet company, and I have a hard time delivering positive reinforcement with good timing when I'm physically restraining a dog.

That's why I generally encourage people to develop their skills and timing with withholding or providing reinforcement. You create an environment where the dog doesn't get reinforced until he chooses a new tactic, and you reward that choice. Sometimes, physical restraint is absolutely necessary, but when it isn't, I like to have the people become statues to withhold that reinforcement.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> ...and I have a hard time delivering positive reinforcement with good timing when I'm physically restraining a dog.


You know... being able to visit people, be touched by people - that is your positive reinforcement right there. And with our goldens and most other breeds (I have a good friend who owns mastiffs who LOVE people but are very strong, very impulsive, very happy), attention trumps food and babble from their owners.

Over time, they do learn to keep their feet on the ground and they settle down.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> You know... being able to visit people, be touched by people - that is your positive reinforcement right there. And with our goldens and most other breeds (I have a good friend who owns mastiffs who LOVE people but are very strong, very impulsive, very happy), attention trumps food and babble from their owners.


In this case, I wouldn't use food, so I'm 100% with you. The dog wants attention, so withholding attention is the punishment and providing it is the reward. I feel like holding the collar might be confusing for the dog, though, because it can feel like attention, even though it prevents the dog from receiving the jumping reinforcement.

I'd give praise when Maya offers good behavior, and I'd also pet her, with the stipulation that if pets lead immediately to another jump, I'd make her hold the sit for a few seconds before petting, and I'd immediately stop petting and turn away if she broke the sit.



Megora said:


> Over time, they do learn to keep their feet on the ground and they settle down.


They do. Once you get over the hump and the dog learns how to receive lots and lots of good attention, polite behavior becomes naturally self-reinforcing.


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## mayapaya (Sep 28, 2011)

Very helpful advise. We will try this technique over the next few weeks, and continue searching for a trainer. And, this trainer had the gall at the end of the class to ask if anyone had any new puppies because she was wanting to form a puppy class. uh huh.....no thanks! I told her I was waiting for Payton to get her complete set of shots before I took her to any training classes/parks, etc. because of the risks of Parvo, and she said, "awww, Parvo, isn't that bad, it's like having the flu...." Unbelievable!


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

mayapaya said:


> Very helpful advise. We will try this technique over the next few weeks, and continue searching for a trainer. And, this trainer had the gall at the end of the class to ask if anyone had any new puppies because she was wanting to form a puppy class. uh huh.....no thanks! I told her I was waiting for Payton to get her complete set of shots before I took her to any training classes/parks, etc. because of the risks of Parvo, and she said, "awww, Parvo, isn't that bad, it's like having the flu...." Unbelievable!


While I definitely believe that Parvo is most certainly worse than the flu, I absolutely support taking young puppies to class. A reputable class will only allow vaccinated dogs in and will have cleaning protocols. The most important phase in puppy's training happens by 16 weeks, so waiting until all the vaccinations are finished actually hampers the pup's early learning.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

mayapaya said:


> Very helpful advise. We will try this technique over the next few weeks, and continue searching for a trainer. And, this trainer had the gall at the end of the class to ask if anyone had any new puppies because she was wanting to form a puppy class. uh huh.....no thanks! I told her I was waiting for Payton to get her complete set of shots before I took her to any training classes/parks, etc. because of the risks of Parvo, and she said, "awww, Parvo, isn't that bad, it's like having the flu...." Unbelievable!


Wow. I would probably mention to your vet or other places in your area your experience with this trainer. :no: I hope you find a good training club.


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## JessiesGirl (Dec 8, 2011)

If she has a leash on for visitors I would put her in a sit and stand on the leash directly under her chest with 1 inch of slack and have the visitor approach. If she stays still without jumping they can step in, as soon as she starts trying to pop up they should step back and look away. When the dog could sit successfully through a pat on the head there would be a calm but happy "good dog" from us. We have one person enter at a time, let the dog meet that person then bring in the next visitor so that the dog doesnt get flooded with people and get overexcited trying to decide who to greet first. We have done this with dogs that have some self control but still not enough to stay seated through the greeting. After everyone would sit down we'd release the dog and let the dog run off its zoomies around the furniture or play a little fetch (structured of course).


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