# Supplement ideas?



## SunGold (Feb 27, 2007)

Nupro makes a joint support supplement. 

www.nuprosupplements.com


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Is there a reason he's still on the I/D? Have you tried any other foods since then, or did the illness then do permanent damage to his system?
Hills is notorious for not having enough protein in their foods, so I'd check the protein level in the food. First thing you want to worry about, before you worry about supplements, is adequate nutrition. How much food does he get in a day? What's the percent protein?
Glucosamine/chondroitin, in combination, is a great supplement for older dogs' joints. It comes in a veterinary formula, or you can buy a people form if you buy from a reputable source. I buy from puritan's pride online, they're one of the biggest and best known (and reputable) of the supplement people.
How are his blood values? If he's having any liver issues, milk thistle and sam-E are well documented for liver support. Sam-E has the added benefit of joint protection, so it's a good supplement if he has any liver problems.
I wouldn't supplement any of the vitamins, typically there's plenty in the dog foods. Some people add vitamin E as an anti-oxidant, but there's conflicting evidence as to its value.
A lot of us add pumpkin to the food for our older dogs. It helps keep their digestive tracts healthy, and keeps things "moving along" so to speak. Helps prevent either constipation or diarrhea, good stuff to give your dogs.
Hope that helps!


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## GoldenMOLLY (Nov 27, 2008)

*Dog Food Analysis*

Here is great site with a review of many dog foods, ratings, ingredients, analysis (content% such as protein). Many of the top names are not as great as we have been led to believe. You may want to look at some of the higher rated foods for your Max.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

goldenmolly, I can't seem to find the link to the site you refer to???


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## GoldenMOLLY (Nov 27, 2008)

It might help if I included the link:doh:

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/


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## MaxwellSmart (Aug 11, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Is there a reason he's still on the I/D? Have you tried any other foods since then, or did the illness then do permanent damage to his system?
> Hills is notorious for not having enough protein in their foods, so I'd check the protein level in the food. First thing you want to worry about, before you worry about supplements, is adequate nutrition. How much food does he get in a day? What's the percent protein?
> Glucosamine/chondroitin, in combination, is a great supplement for older dogs' joints. It comes in a veterinary formula, or you can buy a people form if you buy from a reputable source. I buy from puritan's pride online, they're one of the biggest and best known (and reputable) of the supplement people.
> How are his blood values? If he's having any liver issues, milk thistle and sam-E are well documented for liver support. Sam-E has the added benefit of joint protection, so it's a good supplement if he has any liver problems.
> ...


I asked the vet if it was OK to switch foods, they told me they don't recommend it because of his age but if I do decide to then to do it EXTREMELY slowly. And to be honest, i'm afraid it'll mess up his system, ad obviously I don't want him get sick again. I think that if I do change I would doINNOVA (heard great things from a vet-she recommends it for Brutas). 
As of August his blood levels were all normal. 
He gets 3 cups a day (1 1/2 twice a day). The protein level is as follows: Nurtient Guarantee %-22.0 minimum, As Fed %-24.1, Dry Matter %-26.2, As Fed, Caloric Basics g/100 kcal-6.3. 
The Caloric Content is 379 kcal/per cup) 

I was giving him a tablespoon of yogurt w/ every meal to help w/ digestion, but the vet told me to stop that it only has 1 benificial probiotic but mostly it's all unnecessary calories. He's had pumpkin before, so I'll continue with that. 

You're helping A LOT! Everyone is! Thanks so much! I get so nervous when I think about Max's health. I get information from the vet but #1 there has been contridicting information given by different doctors, and #2 it's a whole lot different when doing things yourself. I just want to do what's best for him.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The protein level in his food is a bit low. I suggest you call Hill's just for fun and ask them how many grams of protein per day he's getting (their veterinary nutritionist can tell you and most of the dog food companies are real good about helping you out) and how many he needs. Royal Canin told me that the reason they put the "suggested feeding amount" on the bag has a lot more to do with protein levels than with calories. 
If he's doing well on the food, I'd probably be more likely to supplement it with some lean protein rather than change it. The Hill's I/D has a real nice fiber level that a lot of dogs do well on. 
After you talk to Hills and find out how much protein he's getting, figure out how much he should get, real easy, 1 gram per pound of body weight per day. Then you can see if he's deficient. If so, ask your vet about easy ways to supplement. Some will suggest just an ounce or two (which is a tiny amount, but so worthwhile) of lean boiled chicken added to his food, some will suggest 1/4 cup of eggbeaters (because they're pasteurized and don't need to be cooked) while others will suggest a little bit of low fat cottage cheese. One I know of even suggests a little whey protein.
My 11 year old gets 2 ounces of roasted rabbit (!) added to his food every day. It's really made a difference in his muscle tone over time, but he was severely protein deficient, getting about 55 grams per day and needing 80.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

unfortunately, most of the foods they list as 6-star premium and/or 5-star premium (didn't check the 4 star, I gave up by that point) have NEVER BEEN TESTED ON DOGS. NEVER.
No thanks.




GoldenMOLLY said:


> It might help if I included the link:doh:
> 
> http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/


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## MaxwellSmart (Aug 11, 2008)

Thanks hotel4dogs! Yeah, Max should be getting 80 grams of protein day. I will definitely give Hills a call tomorrow. 
mmmmm roasted rabbit...bet he loves that!


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## For the Love of Goldens (Dec 11, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> unfortunately, most of the foods they list as 6-star premium and/or 5-star premium (didn't check the 4 star, I gave up by that point) have NEVER BEEN TESTED ON DOGS. NEVER.
> No thanks.


Wow, how scary! How do you know this? How and why can they rate the food if it hasnt' been tested on dogs?


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

I second the Nupro with glucosamine-has a lot of stuff in it that help besides the glucosamine. Helps with gas, coat, itchy...etc


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

because if it's been tested on dogs it says so on the bag, it says "this food has been tested and found to be in compliance with AAFCO standards for dogs at all life stages" (not quite exact quote, but close enough). 
If that's not on the bag, it's been formulated according to what the manufacturer (who really, like all of them, just wants to make money) *thinks* is best for dogs. The ones that contain that testing statement have actually been tested on dogs and found to meet their requirements for all life stages.
The one I always enjoy is the frozen raw diets "for dogs and cats". Hmmm, did anyone ever tell these manufacturers that dogs and cats don't have the same nutrient requirements?????
I know this is not always a popular viewpoint, but my dogs are NOT laboratory rats and I will not give them any food that hasn't been tested on GENERATIONS of dogs and found to be sufficient for a long, healthy lifespan. Maybe XYZ new food is the best food ever made, but until they can PROVE it to me, no thanks. I'll let others feed the "newest" foods to their dogs and then after the company gets around to testing it on a few dogs, I'll consider it.
JMO, of course. We all do what we think is best for our own dogs.
The website referenced is, unfortunately, self-proclaimed experts and reader ratings that base their rating system on some rather arbitrary measurements, such as whether or not the food contains the much-maligned "by-products" or how much grain the food contains. A food can contain nothing but pure human grade beef and it will be a horrible food for dogs, because it doesn't meet any of their micronutrient requirements, for example. Another food can contain nothing but various grains, but if it's been carefully supplemented with vitamins, minerals, and the all important calcium-phosphorous ratio, it might be a very acceptable food. A food that contains lots of ground bones might be so heavy on calcium in relation to phosphorous that it causes the dog to metabolize muscle to keep the ratio in it's proper range. I could go on and on, but I'm sure you get the point!
Ok, I'll get off my soapbox. You can probably tell canine nutrition is a very special interest of mine, I have shelves of textbooks on it....


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Ok, I said I was done but one other thing, I firmly believe there is no one food that's best for ALL dogs. Some dogs do better on higher fat, some on almost no fat, some do great on soy protein, some can't eat soy at all.
When my older male was diagnosed (by biopsy) with autoimmune inflammatory bowel disease (thus the rabbit protein), I had to put him on a single protein/single carbohydrate source food. We suspected a gluten intolerance (since have found out it was the protein, not the carb, but I digress...) and the only carb he can have is potato, which is gluten free.
I asked the internal medicine specialist if I should take my other dogs off foods with grain, and he literally laughed at me.
He said, if your neighbor were diagnosed with diabetes, would you give up all sugars?
Just because one dog has a medical problem with the grain doesn't mean grain isn't a perfectly legitimate food for dogs, despite the best marketing efforts of some of the dog food companies.


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## GoldenMOLLY (Nov 27, 2008)

hotel4dogs, a few questions for you. So what are they testing for on the dogs? I read my bag from WEllness Puppy and as you said no mention of tested on dogs but the ingredients were all natural and did not strike me as unhealthy, I even let my daughter try it once. If every dog has different nutritional needs what would they test for and how do you know what to feed your dog? Just when I thought I found a healthy food. I have never researched nutrition on dogs but after losing our last golden to cancer at age 10 and seeing the website that I referenced I thought that the Eukanuba that we fed her may have contributed to cancer. Just like several people I have known with cancer when they made healthy strict diet changes the cancer stayed away. 
So what about the grains? Everything I see says stay away from corn and alot of grains (rice I remember as good, so not all grains are bad I am guessing). Our last golden had allergies with chronic ear infections and again equated it to food since she had a really nasty ear infection when I changed her to Beneful because she loved it so much when she stayed with a friend. AS far as your comment about staying away from grains and the analogy if your neighbor had diabetes would you give up sugar. Maybe not, but we all know sugar (in the processed form, not natural sugar as in fruits) is bad for us. So is that the same for corn and some of the other grains? Thanks for your info and all the research you have done and share.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The testing is done on dogs for about one year, they are fed that food and nothing else. During the course of the year they have constant health checks, weight checks, and blood work. At the end of a year, if the dogs are all still healthy, the food is allowed to use the AAFCO testing statement. 
I don't want this to get into a big emotional discussion, as dog food threads tend to do, so I'll say again, this is MY opinion. 
I feed my kids a ton of stuff that's all natural, healthy, holistic, whatever, but I wouldn't give it to my dogs. Such as steak, for example. And just because the ingredients are natural and/or healthy, doesn't mean they're in the right mix nor do they necessarily contain the right nutrients for dogs. You could give your dogs nice organic raw carrots, organic raw broccoli, and organic raw lettuce and they'd quickly starve to death because dogs lack the enzyme to digest any of those things. But I give them to my kids!
About cancer, I know a lot of people who've eaten right their whole life, worked out, etc. and died of cancer. And believe me, changing your diet doesn't cure cancer. We all wish it were that simple, especially those of use who've had cancer and/or lost dear friends and family members to it. Other people smoke, drink, etc. their whole life and live to be 100. Genetics.

About grain, here's the text of a PM I sent someone else that inquired about grain in dog foods. 


*Re: Dog Food* 
The "no grain" is a huge marketing hype, heavily promoted by, of course, companies looking for a niche market.
Grain is a perfectly fine food for dogs and it has been a part of their diet forever. Dogs are omnivores, not carnivores, and in fact can be fed a vegetarian diet with no ill effects as long as the micronutrient and vitamin profile is correct. 
The "not part of their natural diet" is another interesting statement. According to who? Dogs have evolved quickly and no longer resemble the wild animals from which they came. Even so, wolves and coyotes eat a fair amount of berries, roots, stomach matter from their prey, and pretty much anything they can to survive.
The mean survival of a feral dog is less than 4 years. Most of them live on garbage, and frankly they're not real fussy about whether that pizza crust contains grain or not. People who talk about "their natural diet" are referring to wolves, not dogs, and dogs have long since evolved to a domesticated animal. By the same token, our "natural diet" is raw meat and berries, but that ISN'T WHAT I'M HAVING FOR BREAKFAST!
Of much more importance is that the company has the mix of micronutrients and vitamins correct. You could take a totally grain free food, and if it has too much vitamin D in it, it will kill the dogs. Ask Royal Canin about that....(a previous recall)
A lot of dogs have led long, healthy lives (very long, in fact) eating nothing but purina dog chow, the bottom of purina's food line, which is loaded with grains but a perfectly fine food for a long, healthy life. Not my choice, but literally millions of dogs do great on it.
About individual grains, soy is not considered a grain but rather a protein source. It's a wonderful protein source, IF the dog can tolerate it. But a lot of dogs (like a lot of people) get gas and/or diarrhea from soy so if your food contains soy, and your dog is having one of those problems, try a soy free food. If not, no reason to change because of the soy. A lot of holistic vets use soy supplements for dogs.
Corn is *sometimes* frowned on because it's the least digestible of the grains. If the protein in the food is largely from corn, your dog isn't getting as much protein as the bag claims. For example, if the food is 25% protein but the protein is all corn, corn is only about 65% digestible, so the protein he's really getting is only 65% of 25%. But as long as the dog gets enough food, it's not of any real consequence.
Wheat is just fine, unless the dog has a wheat intolerance. That is probably the #1 intolerance in dogs, so people will suggest you steer clear of wheat in your dog food (and those same people give their dogs treats like milk bones, that are about 80% wheat). If you, personally, have no wheat intolerance, there's no reason to give up eating bread. Same holds for your dog. But if your dog is having diarrhea/vomiting/loss of weight, you might switch to a wheat free food. Otherwise, there's no reason at all to do so.
Rice is considered a "good" grain because it's so easy to digest. Thats why you give it when your dogs are sick, very easy on the digestive tract. Barley and millet are just "novel" grains that most dogs haven't seen, and they are no better or worse than any other grain. Millet is gluten free, so people promote it as better than other grains, but it's been shown that millet also impairs thyroid function (bet your "premium" dog food companies don't publicize THAT one) and with hypothyroidism so prevelant in goldens, I personally wouldn't be picking a food with millet.
There's a great website which you might have seen in one of my other posts, www.petdiets.com, run by 2 certified veterinary nutritionists (only a handful of them in the US) which is loaded with great information. Browse the FAQ section, and I guarantee you'll find some very enlightening information.
Hope that helps!
We all do the best we can with the knowledge we have at the time, but I personally refuse to buy into the marketing hype. Maybe because I have a degree in marketing !

Finally, here's a link to a labrador retriever website that does a nice job explaining things, and has some excellent links on it:

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/dogfoods.html

I want to say again, we all have to make a choice we feel comfortable with and do whatever we think is best for our own dogs. Just because I choose to feed my dogs a food containing grain doesn't mean it's the right choice for you or for your dogs.

Hope some of this helped!





GoldenMOLLY said:


> hotel4dogs, a few questions for you. So what are they testing for on the dogs? I read my bag from WEllness Puppy and as you said no mention of tested on dogs but the ingredients were all natural and did not strike me as unhealthy, I even let my daughter try it once. If every dog has different nutritional needs what would they test for and how do you know what to feed your dog? Just when I thought I found a healthy food. I have never researched nutrition on dogs but after losing our last golden to cancer at age 10 and seeing the website that I referenced I thought that the Eukanuba that we fed her may have contributed to cancer. Just like several people I have known with cancer when they made healthy strict diet changes the cancer stayed away.
> So what about the grains? Everything I see says stay away from corn and alot of grains (rice I remember as good, so not all grains are bad I am guessing). Our last golden had allergies with chronic ear infections and again equated it to food since she had a really nasty ear infection when I changed her to Beneful because she loved it so much when she stayed with a friend. AS far as your comment about staying away from grains and the analogy if your neighbor had diabetes would you give up sugar. Maybe not, but we all know sugar (in the processed form, not natural sugar as in fruits) is bad for us. So is that the same for corn and some of the other grains? Thanks for your info and all the research you have done and share.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Lately, I changed my supplement routine. I don't have anyone who needs glucosamine now (if I did I would use liquid). I use these:

I grind my own flaxseends daily and put them in the food. Dogs can't digest the whole seeds, the preground goes bad quickly, and the oil I don't trust

Nutritional Yeast every other day or so- NO, not yeast used for bread! The yellow, flakey, cheesey smelling kind is nutritional yeast. 

I give them fish, eggs, yogurt, and other goodies too.


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