# Dog Attack in Open B



## IndyDan

First, I want to say this is not the failure of any handler, judge or club.

Today, I witness a vicious dog attack (3 dogs) in Open B during long sits and downs. These were not your Novice dogs. Club members /spectators jumped-in to help separate three large dogs. 

I will always have someone near the ring during these out-dated exercises. 

One question: Why does AKC continue to put dogs in a dangerous situation?


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## fostermom

That is horrible! Were any of the dogs hurt?


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## AcesWild

Were the dogs allowed to meet before the exercise? Now I mean in this type of obedience they should be okay but with all required to be intact to compete....


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## AmberSunrise

That is unfortunate... very .. I keep hearing that requests are made to the AKC to switch to either no groups or to an honor.

I have shown in obedience for a long time and fortunately have actually never seen a dog fight break out during the group exercises. I do know that the dogs of yesteryear just seemed more prepared than some of the dogs in the rings today, perhaps because there are fewer opportunities to train and match? 

I do hope none of the dogs or people were hurt.


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## AmberSunrise

AcesWild said:


> Were the dogs allowed to meet before the exercise? Now I mean in this type of obedience they should be okay but with all required to be intact to compete....


Dogs so not need to be intact for obedience, rally, agility, field etc - only for conformation.


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## Loisiana

Some of you may remember a couple of years ago when a pomeranian was attacked by a dalmation in Open B during stays. I see Jasmine, the pom, and her owners a few times a year at trials. They will no longer compete in Open at all-breed shows. It is a shame, too, because Jasmine is an awesome little dog that deserves an OTCH. They did travel to Florida to take part in some toy specialties and I believe they did get their open first there.


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## AcesWild

Ah okay. I figured that might be a cause of it...


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## JDandBigAm

Correct me if I'm wrong but dogs are not required to be intact for obedience, rally or agility. I hope the dog that started the fight will not be allowed in the ring ever again.


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## IndyDan

> That is horrible! Were any of the dogs hurt?


I know two of the dogs were alright. The third dog an OTCH, I have no information on any injuries. 



> I keep hearing that requests are made to the AKC to switch to either no groups or to an honor.


Sounds like a idea ... but it needs to be sooner,than later.


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## hotel4dogs

That is very, very scary. I always worry about the out of sight exercises in Open with my dog, who is, in fact, an intact male.

edit....meaning, I worry another dog will go after my dog, not that my dog will go after anyone else! But it doesn't stop me from showing him in Open B.


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## FlyingQuizini

That just makes my heart sink... and makes me want to completely abandon any thoughts of going for a UDX with Quiz. I simply cannot imagine the guilt that would haunt me forever if my sweet, sweet, TRUSTING dog were to be hurt during an exercise that he is doing strictly to please me.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I'm not sure you ever really get over having been witness to a dog fight. Not if you're human. I'm so, sorry.


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## IndyDan

> I'm not sure you ever really get over having been witness to a dog fight. Not if you're human. I'm so, sorry.


I was getting ready for Open A (with a young dog). Not willing to leave my dog for sits and downs after that incident ... we just left. I talked to my instructor afterward, she said that was a good move on my part.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I don't blame you...


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## K9-Design

UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG THAT SUCKS!!!! :-(

That being said you probably have a better chance of your dog getting attacked while walking through the show grounds outside the ring than in the Open groups.


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## Makino82

That is horrible!! Hopefully the 'attacked' dogs have high enough confidence to get over the anxiety that has / may cause when they get left on stays now...


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## BayBeams

There was a significant dog attack in a novice B group that I witnessed where my training partner was in the group with an 11 y/o collie. She quickly bailed, though after the dust cleared and a brief break they continued the group minus the guilty parties. Since then we always have someone "standing by" to assist just in case. I have completed my open title and am working on utility. Not sure I'll continue for a UDX, thought the reason is not primarily due to the groups and fight potential but due to an aging pup.


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## IndyDan

*AKC needs to step-up and take a pro-active approach*



> That being said you probably have a better chance of your dog getting attacked while walking through the show grounds outside the ring than in the Open groups.


I agree with your statement. But the AKC requires all dogs to be leashed while on the event grounds. As a Handler you can quickly response to any problems immediately.:crossfing

But in Open A and B during long sits and downs, the Handler is out of sight. You do not have that quick responds time. *You are trusting someone (who ... I don't know ... if its a judge or ring steward or maybe its someone in the crowd) to jump-in and break-up a fight.* In this case, it was a Belgian Tervuren and two Golden's. This was not just a shouting match between these dogs. This was a serious incident that happen in Open B with OTCH dogs! 

The AKC needs to step-up and take a pro-active approach. Don't put dogs into a potential dangerous situation ... or judges ... or ring stewards ... or good Samaritan.

And I don't want to prejudge here, but will the AKC put mixed-breeds in the same situation, too.


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## hotel4dogs

Anney, you make an extremely valid point. While I've NEVER seen an attack during out of sight exercises, Tito has been attacked twice walking thru show areas (obedience both times!!!). Both times he dove under the nearest chair. He's a wimp, and I'm glad. 




K9-Design said:


> UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG THAT SUCKS!!!! :-(
> 
> That being said you probably have a better chance of your dog getting attacked while walking through the show grounds outside the ring than in the Open groups.


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## HovawartMom

In France,Our dackshund was attacked by a Beauceron,will entering the confirmation ring!.
When you show,there is a risk!.
Maybe Dogs should be muzzled while doing this exercise!.
Greyhounds run with a muzzle on and if dogs do ring work,they need to be able to work with one,as well!.
It's not inhuman but will protect all dogs from truly,hurting each-other!.


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## hotel4dogs

I've been thinking about this and I want to voice what will probably be an unpopular opinion.
It's very, very sad that it happened and I certainly don't condone it but it needs to be put in perspective. 
I train with a lot of people who have OTCH dogs, and who show every weekend, and have for years and years. Several of them are judges themselves. We've talked about the out of sight stays, and the incidence of problems. It's really almost, but not quite, zero. The likelihood is very, very low of your dog getting hurt during an out of sight stay.
When we participate in any dog sport, we put our dogs at risk. Agility has huge structural risks associated with it. According to my dog's chiropractor, a lot of dogs suffer injuries from the weave poles. If you've ever seen a dog fall off of a 5 foot high dog walk at full speed, you know what I'm talking about in terms of risks. The risk of injury to an older dog, perhaps seeking a UDX or OTCH, taking the obedience jumps which must be the dog's full height, is significantly higher than the risk of getting attacked in the ring. The risk of them slipping on a slippery ring floor and doing permanent damage to a shoulder or hip is much higher than the risk of getting attacked in the ring.
We take them to shows and expose them to thousands of other dogs. They can catch all sorts of weird diseases. In fact, if they're not in a crate, the risk of getting injured in a car accident is probably higher than the risk of getting attacked in the show ring. 
Just walking thru the show your dog is more likely to get attacked than in the ring, as Annie said. And while they are on leash, in a serious dog fight the damage done is done so quickly that the leash isn't going to prevent a dog from getting hurt. I've seen a dog here at the pet hotel almost kill another dog (that she lived with, btw) in less than 15 seconds. If another dog grabs my dog's neck, by the time I could pull him off (at serious risk to myself), he's going to be injured pretty badly if the other dog means it.
We take them out in the field for hunt/field work, and expose them to ticks galore. The risks of TBDs are much worse, and significantly higher, than the risk of getting attacked during an out of sight stay. We run the risk of losing our dogs every time we run a hunt test. Minor risk, but real. Ask anyone who runs brittanys or weims or vizslas about losing dogs at hunt trials (it's such a problem the AKC just okayed the use of GPS collars on the bird dogs, I believe). 
So again, it's terrible that it happened, but it needs to be kept in perspective.


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## hotel4dogs

and now I will say something that I will probably get royally flamed for....
but if none of the dogs ended up at the ER, it WAS a shouting match. (and maybe one did, you only said that 2 of the dogs were okay).
I've worked with thousands of dogs, for years, including in lots of play group situations. 
If a dog MEANS it, there will be so much damage done within seconds that you will be taking at least one dog to the hospital. Period. If you've ever seen it happen, it will scare you for the rest of your life. And they can not be pulled apart by just grabbing their collars (or spraying them with water, or yelling at them, or anything similar) if they mean it.
I'm still not condoning what happened. Just explaining something about dog behavior. 



IndyDan said:


> In this case, it was a Belgian Tervuren and two Golden's. This was not just a shouting match between these dogs. This was a serious incident that happen in Open B with OTCH dogs!
> 
> .


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## Ljilly28

I think when there is a case of a "usual supsect", a dog who repeatedly causes trouble during AKC obedience events, the AKC should fine the owner severely for putting other dogs at risk knowingly. I've seen the same boxer harrass other dogs during the stays twice and fight with a GSD, but yet the dog is repeatedly entered in Open B.


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## hotel4dogs

The dog can be permanently barred from all AKC events BUT they have to be reported. I believe spectators can report the dog as well, but I know for sure that judges can. 




Ljilly28 said:


> I think when there is a case of a "usual supsect", a dog who repeatedly causes trouble during AKC obedience events, the AKC should fine the owner severely for putting other dogs at risk knowingly. I've seen the same boxer harrass other dogs during the stays twice and fight with a GSD, but yet the dog is repeatedly entered in Open B.


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## AmberSunrise

hotel4dogs said:


> The dog can be permanently barred from all AKC events BUT they have to be reported. I believe spectators can report the dog as well, but I know for sure that judges can.


Yes, it is part of our responsibility as exhibitors and spectators to REPORT dog fights - I used to be 'too nice' to do this but my Casey has been attacked too many times and now I do not play games with aggressive dogs or their owners. Get the arm band number and go to the super if you are ever unfortunate enough to witness a dog fight. Or get a picture since most of us have cell phones with some camera ability.


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## IndyDan

> and now I will say something that I will probably get royally flamed for....


I appreciate your comments, but disagree. Many times we try to soften, water down, dismiss, re-direct or use comparison to mask a problem ... BTW hotel4dogs you have my vote if you are running for Office. 

Do we need another dog attacked in the ring ... so a out-dated exercise can be changed? All I'm saying is AKC needs to be proactive.

In the end, it will be my decision whether to continue in Obedience or not ... maybe its just part of the risk involved in the sport.


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## tippykayak

Isn't part of the question about the value of these exercises? Certainly the risk of them is less than the risk of other things we do, but perhaps we could consider what skill is being asked for here, and whether or not there is another way to accomplish something similar or equally valid.


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## hotel4dogs

we can agree to disagree 
This has been discussed several times at great length on the obedience forum. The general feeling has been that out-of-sight sits and downs are an integral part of testing how well trained a dog really is. 
It does make me nervous with my boy. There are a couple of dogs that I will pull my dog from the show rather than send him in the ring with them because I consider them unreliable. But overall, I do think of it as a relatively minor risk of participating in the sport. JMO, of course, and as you said the decision to continue or not is a personal one we each make. 




IndyDan said:


> I appreciate your comments, but disagree. Many times we try to soften, water down, dismiss, re-direct or use comparison to mask a problem ... BTW hotel4dogs you have my vote if you are running for Office.
> 
> Do we need another dog attacked in the ring ... so a out-dated exercise can be changed? All I'm saying is AKC needs to be proactive.
> 
> In the end, it will be my decision whether to continue in Obedience or not ... maybe its just part of the risk involved in the sport.


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## hotel4dogs

I know what you're saying, but the skill that's being asked for is for the dog to be able to follow a handler's command in the absence of the handler, in a highly distracting situation. I'm not really sure how else you would accomplish that. It's a pretty high level skill. The point of the other dogs being there is to provide the distraction, especially if another one breaks the command. 




tippykayak said:


> Isn't part of the question about the value of these exercises? Certainly the risk of them is less than the risk of other things we do, but perhaps we could consider what skill is being asked for here, and whether or not there is another way to accomplish something similar or equally valid.


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## Loisiana

One thing I am against is changing it to an honor stay. I'm not sure why so many people think it would be safer to leave a dog in a ring with another dog running around.


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## K9-Design

Barb I think you made a great post and I agree with it. There are inherent risks with EVERY activity we do with our dogs. In field work the risk of injury is very high, same with agility. Obedience not so much but honestly I worry more about a dog jumping the ring gates after a thrown dumbell and a fight starting than with group stays.
Personally I would like to see a happy medium. Dogs requiring stays for their CDX title but getting a pass on stays for UDX/OTCH. I know, it's a cop out, but I know SO many dogs who are going for OTCH or are already OTCH dogs, that only compete in Utility -- not because their owners are afraid of a fight during groups but because the dogs have become so ring smart they fail every group! (laying down on sit) The owners finally said screw it we'll just do Utility, more points out of Utility anyways. Trust me I've seriously thought of doing this with Fisher, he has an Open win so why go back? 
Anyways, I absolutely understand the terror of a dog fight, but I'm not sure the stats back up the fear and are cause to totally ban open stays. The fact that they are annoying to train is more compelling to me


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## hotel4dogs

The honor stay loses the point of the distraction of all the other dogs, too.




Loisiana said:


> One thing I am against is changing it to an honor stay. I'm not sure why so many people think it would be safer to leave a dog in a ring with another dog running around.


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## hotel4dogs

I think the stay should remain part of the UDX. If the dogs become ringwise and start lying down, do they deserve a UDX leg? Or shouldn't we expect MORE of dogs who are titled at that level? For the OTCH, does a certain number of the points have to come from open? I don't remember and I'm too lazy to look it up : . Once the dog has the OTCH, they don't need to compete in open any more anyway, so the stays become a moot point. Besides, I'd like to see the OTCH dogs out of Open B anyway, give a chance for others to win, LOLOL!
And now that you mention it, I've seen a HECK of a lot of dogs leave the ring, either over the ring gates, or out the opening. That's really unsafe. Saw a boxer jump into the next ring to retrieve a dumbell that wasn't hers. Saw an Irish Wolfhound crash right thru the gates and go visiting. Saw a golden leave the ring, and the building. Also saw a French bulldog do the same thing. 
One of the funniest ones I saw was last summer when a young lab jumped the ring gate on a novice heel off lead exercise, into the adjacent ring where the open A dogs were doing long sits, and went to say hi to everyone. The novice handler was mortified, but luckily no harm was done (except for an NQ, LOL). 
Considering that in your area a lot of shows are outside, then any dog being off leash, even in a ring, is very dangerous.
Maybe, just maybe, people shouldn't show dogs that aren't ready to show??


edit...I did look it up....there is no number of points that must come from Open, as long as you have 1 win.




K9-Design said:


> Barb I think you made a great post and I agree with it. There are inherent risks with EVERY activity we do with our dogs. In field work the risk of injury is very high, same with agility. Obedience not so much but honestly I worry more about a dog jumping the ring gates after a thrown dumbell and a fight starting than with group stays.
> Personally I would like to see a happy medium. Dogs requiring stays for their CDX title but getting a pass on stays for UDX/OTCH. I know, it's a cop out, but I know SO many dogs who are going for OTCH or are already OTCH dogs, that only compete in Utility -- not because their owners are afraid of a fight during groups but because the dogs have become so ring smart they fail every group! (laying down on sit) The owners finally said screw it we'll just do Utility, more points out of Utility anyways. Trust me I've seriously thought of doing this with Fisher, he has an Open win so why go back?
> Anyways, I absolutely understand the terror of a dog fight, but I'm not sure the stats back up the fear and are cause to totally ban open stays. The fact that they are annoying to train is more compelling to me


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## Loisiana

For an OTCH you need a first from both classes (with a minimum number of dogs in the class), but the rest of the points can come from either class.

I do worry some about the safety about stays, but training wise I enjoy the challenge. And I was one that was about ready to quit open forever due to a ring wise dog.


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## IndyDan

hotel4dogs ... good suggestion.



> It does make me nervous with my boy. There are a couple of dogs that I will pull my dog from the show rather than send him in the ring with them because I consider them unreliable.


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## my4goldens

I don't think the exercise should be changed, but I do think that the judges and stewards need to be more mindful of what is going on in the ring. I think most of them are very aware of what is happening in the ring, but I have seen some that aren't. And handlers too need to be mindful of everything going on, especially while you are waiting to go in for the long sits/downs. Often you will have dogs staring at each, with the handlers not paying attention, which can trigger something. I have a friend, not Barb, her Tito and my Raider get along famously, but someone else who has a dog that literally hates my dog. I think if they were ever to get into a fight it would be a fight to the death. My dog doesn't instigate anything, but I don't think he would back down either. That has really limited me to showing in Open B, as she is showing towards her UDX title and shows a lot. I know it shouldn't stop me, but it does. Just not worth it to me for even the possibility of something happening.


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## Bender

Why not simply add in a light line that each dog has to put on and be anchored to the fence or wall etc when doing stays? That way they can do the same exercise, but if any dogs break their stay they're not going too far and can be collected and removed from the ring without bothering a neighboring dog. If the line is light enough it's not going to change the 'work' that much to the dog in the end and it would solve the problem of dogs breaking and wandering.

I had the 'honor' of being the owner of a dog who got attacked on the way out of the ring from stays, from a Dal who didn't seem to have any reason for doing so. Took the tip of the ear off and had a heck of a time getting the bleeding to stop. Ok add to the list that the handlers must keep a good amount of space between each dog coming and going out of the ring.

I don't think honoring would be any safer, if a dog goes after another dog's dumbell..... that would likely end badly for many dogs. 

Lana


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## hotel4dogs

most of our stays are done up against nothing more than the light "baby gates". 




Bender said:


> Why not simply add in a light line that each dog has to put on and be anchored to the fence or wall etc when doing stays? That way they can do the same exercise, but if any dogs break their stay they're not going too far and can be collected and removed from the ring without bothering a neighboring dog. If the line is light enough it's not going to change the 'work' that much to the dog in the end and it would solve the problem of dogs breaking and wandering.
> 
> I had the 'honor' of being the owner of a dog who got attacked on the way out of the ring from stays, from a Dal who didn't seem to have any reason for doing so. Took the tip of the ear off and had a heck of a time getting the bleeding to stop. Ok add to the list that the handlers must keep a good amount of space between each dog coming and going out of the ring.
> 
> I don't think honoring would be any safer, if a dog goes after another dog's dumbell..... that would likely end badly for many dogs.
> 
> Lana


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## hotel4dogs

yep, same dog attacked Tito once outside the ring and came up with a mouthful of golden butt feathers. He's one of the ones I'll pull Tito before I'll put him in a ring with that dog.




my4goldens said:


> I have a friend, not Barb, her Tito and my Raider get along famously, but someone else who has a dog that literally hates my dog. I think if they were ever to get into a fight it would be a fight to the death. My dog doesn't instigate anything, but I don't think he would back down either. That has really limited me to showing in Open B, as she is showing towards her UDX title and shows a lot. I know it shouldn't stop me, but it does. Just not worth it to me for even the possibility of something happening.


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## 2golddogs

I've read every post in this thread and I have to say, that for someone like me just getting started in obedience, you've scared me to death. For some reason it never had entered my mind that dogs in the group exercise would get into a fight. I wrongly assumed that dogs entered in trials are well behaved dogs. Does anyone that witnessed the dog fight have any idea what may have caused it? Do you think we're stressing these dogs too much? One thing that does come through loud and clear in this thread is we all have a responsibility to report problem dogs. Some have mentioned repeatedly seeing dogs at various trials that have caused problems. That is worrisome to me.


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## IndyDan

I hate to say this ... but the Handlers/Trainers/Clubs/and the AKC need to do a better job in making all AKC events safer ... if we don't, then someone else or another organization will get involved. I would hate to see this sport on 60 Minutes.


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## hotel4dogs

I'm so sorry to hear you say this. While it certainly pays to be cautious, I think you will find thousands and thousands of people who have shown in obedience for many years without incidence. The benefits, IMO, far outweigh the risks.





2golddogs said:


> I've read every post in this thread and I have to say, that for someone like me just getting started in obedience, you've scared me to death. For some reason it never had entered my mind that dogs in the group exercise would get into a fight. I wrongly assumed that dogs entered in trials are well behaved dogs. Does anyone that witnessed the dog fight have any idea what may have caused it? Do you think we're stressing these dogs too much? One thing that does come through loud and clear in this thread is we all have a responsibility to report problem dogs. Some have mentioned repeatedly seeing dogs at various trials that have caused problems. That is worrisome to me.


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## 2golddogs

I might be scared but I am determined. Jackson and I are enjoying our pre-novice class and now I understand where the instructor is coming from when she says your dog really needs to be ready to enter an obedience trial. I think Jackson is ready to enter some fun matches to give us both some experience and learn from others. I now just need to keep in mind being vigilant about not only my dog's behavior but others as well. Truly hope I never witness a dogfight.


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## FlyingQuizini

hotel4dogs said:


> and now I will say something that I will probably get royally flamed for....
> but if none of the dogs ended up at the ER, it WAS a shouting match. (and maybe one did, you only said that 2 of the dogs were okay).
> I've worked with thousands of dogs, for years, including in lots of play group situations.
> If a dog MEANS it, there will be so much damage done within seconds that you will be taking at least one dog to the hospital. Period. If you've ever seen it happen, it will scare you for the rest of your life. And they can not be pulled apart by just grabbing their collars (or spraying them with water, or yelling at them, or anything similar) if they mean it.
> I'm still not condoning what happened. Just explaining something about dog behavior.


I agree. When dogs are serious, they do damage. No damage, they were throwing all sorts of insults at each other and shoving each other around like a couple drunk boys at the bar. 

Doesn't make it any less alarming for the humans and doesn't make it ANY less inappropriate for the group ring, nor does it ease my concern about OOS groups. But w/o injuries, in the realm of dog behavior, I'd hesitate to call it a serious fight.


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## AmberSunrise

2golddogs said:


> I might be scared but I am determined. Jackson and I are enjoying our pre-novice class and now I understand where the instructor is coming from when she says your dog really needs to be ready to enter an obedience trial. I think Jackson is ready to enter some fun matches to give us both some experience and learn from others. I now just need to keep in mind being vigilant about not only my dog's behavior but others as well. Truly hope I never witness a dogfight.


Oh - that is truly good to hear  
Yes, you need to be vigilant - and your dog needs to be trained and proofed, but the sense of accomplishment and teamwork for a 'leg' or Q - well, as American Express would say - is priceless.


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## Loisiana

Sunrise said:


> Oh - that is truly good to hear
> Yes, you need to be vigilant - and your dog needs to be trained and proofed, but the sense of accomplishment and teamwork for a 'leg' or Q - well, as American Express would say - is priceless.


But we won't go into the actual cost of earning all those Q's....

I think I need a third job.


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## AmberSunrise

loisiana said:


> but we won't go into the actual cost of earning all those q's....
> 
> I think i need a third job.


roflmao !!!!!!!!


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## hotel4dogs

*The Judge's Version of what happened*

By a strange coincidence, My4Goldens and I found out in training today that our trainer was the judge who broke up the "fight", and the terv belonged to one of the people we train with. I would have to assume you were referring to the show in Flint, MI, because it would be too weird for it to happen in 2 different locations in one weekend, both involving the same breeds.
Our trainer, Fred, was the judge in the adjacent ring. Here's what he told us....
The dogs were doing the out-of-sight sits. The 2 dogs involved were on the end of the ring. The golden laid down on the sit, and the terv, who was next to the golden, got up and came and stood over the golden "in a dominant manner". 
The golden wasn't too pleased with this, and jumped up and "alpha rolled" the terv. The terv did not go back at the golden; he rolled on his back and started screaming. The golden pinned the terv down but was not "attacking" his neck. There was a LOT of noise.
Fred was about 15 feet away in the adjacent ring. He jumped the ring gate, whacked the golden on the nose with his clipboard, and yelled at him to knock it off (in some rather colorful language). The golden immediately released the terv's neck and backed off. 
The "second golden" wasn't involved at all. The second golden got up and started coming over as if to join in, or perhaps just see what was going on. Someone said that the 2 goldens know each other. But the other golden was never closer than 10 feet to the altercation. 
Fred says the entire incident lasted less than 15 seconds.
NONE of the dogs were hurt. Fred says it was NOT a fight, the dogs were profiling, as evidenced by the fact that when he whacked the golden with the clipboard the golden immediately backed off (side note, Fred has had his own dogs, dobermans, fight and says that in a real fight you can't pry them apart with a crowbar, let alone a clipboard, which is what I have also observed). 
They held a "hearing" that lasted about 15 minutes. Both dogs were excused from the show because of "showing potentially aggressive behavior". After listening to various witnesses and particpants, they didn't want to "over-react" because no dogs were hurt and it was obvious to "people who understand dog behavior" that the dogs were "profiling", not fighting.
So there you have it.
I agree, it's a scary thing. But I hope it's not enough to keep people from participating in obedience, which overall continues to be a very safe sport, all things being relative.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

Well, my hat's off to ya. I don't like ANY conflict at all. You are all very brave IMHO.


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## AmberSunrise

hotel4dogs said:


> By a strange coincidence, My4Goldens and I found out in training today that our trainer was the judge who broke up the "fight", and the terv belonged to one of the people we train with. I would have to assume you were referring to the show in Flint, MI, because it would be too weird for it to happen in 2 different locations in one weekend, both involving the same breeds.
> Our trainer, Fred, was the judge in the adjacent ring. Here's what he told us....
> The dogs were doing the out-of-sight sits. The 2 dogs involved were on the end of the ring. The golden laid down on the sit, and the terv, who was next to the golden, got up and came and stood over the golden "in a dominant manner".
> The golden wasn't too pleased with this, and jumped up and "alpha rolled" the terv. The terv did not go back at the golden; he rolled on his back and started screaming. The golden pinned the terv down but was not "attacking" his neck. There was a LOT of noise.
> Fred was about 15 feet away in the adjacent ring. He jumped the ring gate, whacked the golden on the nose with his clipboard, and yelled at him to knock it off (in some rather colorful language). The golden immediately released the terv's neck and backed off.
> The "second golden" wasn't involved at all. The second golden got up and started coming over as if to join in, or perhaps just see what was going on. Someone said that the 2 goldens know each other. But the other golden was never closer than 10 feet to the altercation.
> Fred says the entire incident lasted less than 15 seconds.
> NONE of the dogs were hurt. Fred says it was NOT a fight, the dogs were profiling, as evidenced by the fact that when he whacked the golden with the clipboard the golden immediately backed off (side note, Fred has had his own dogs, dobermans, fight and says that in a real fight you can't pry them apart with a crowbar, let alone a clipboard, which is what I have also observed).
> They held a "hearing" that lasted about 15 minutes. Both dogs were excused from the show because of "showing potentially aggressive behavior". After listening to various witnesses and particpants, they didn't want to "over-react" because no dogs were hurt and it was obvious to "people who understand dog behavior" that the dogs were "profiling", not fighting.
> So there you have it.
> I agree, it's a scary thing. But I hope it's not enough to keep people from participating in obedience, which overall continues to be a very safe sport, all things being relative.


Thank you for posting this


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## MillysMom

hotel4dogs said:


> Maybe, just maybe, people shouldn't show dogs that aren't ready to show??
> 
> 
> edit...I did look it up....there is no number of points that must come from Open, as long as you have 1 win.


Hope you don't mind I deleted a lot of the quote to make this post shorter.

This is probably a stupid question, but other than mock shows is there any way other than showing to know if your dog is truly ready to show? It seems to me there are a lot of things going on at shows that you really can't replicate in any situation other than a show, and once everything is being done correctly and consistently at home/at practice/mock shows, etc you would assume it was time to try a show, but I'm sure there would be instances where once showing you realize, "Oh crap, we really aren't ready yet... better stay home and practice for a few more months."

Is this assumption correct, or is there a good way of knowing if your dog really is ready to compete?


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## FlyingQuizini

MillysMom said:


> Hope you don't mind I deleted a lot of the quote to make this post shorter.
> 
> This is probably a stupid question, but other than mock shows is there any way other than showing to know if your dog is truly ready to show? It seems to me there are a lot of things going on at shows that you really can't replicate in any situation other than a show, and once everything is being done correctly and consistently at home/at practice/mock shows, etc you would assume it was time to try a show, but I'm sure there would be instances where once showing you realize, "Oh crap, we really aren't ready yet... better stay home and practice for a few more months."
> 
> Is this assumption correct, or is there a good way of knowing if your dog really is ready to compete?


I think that's pretty much what you have to do, but the problem is, IMO, that many people go into the ring with a dog who isn't quite ready (solid) but they are crossing their fingers and hoping for the best.

Glad somebody got to the bottom of the incident and that no dogs were hurt.


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## rappwizard

MillysMom said:


> Hope you don't mind I deleted a lot of the quote to make this post shorter.
> 
> This is probably a stupid question, but other than mock shows is there any way other than showing to know if your dog is truly ready to show? It seems to me there are a lot of things going on at shows that you really can't replicate in any situation other than a show, and once everything is being done correctly and consistently at home/at practice/mock shows, etc you would assume it was time to try a show, but I'm sure there would be instances where once showing you realize, "Oh crap, we really aren't ready yet... better stay home and practice for a few more months."
> 
> Is this assumption correct, or is there a good way of knowing if your dog really is ready to compete?


Obedience matches--but they are not offered as often as before because they are expensive for clubs.

The other option is to enter what is called "wild card" classes. The wild card classes are in novice, open and utility. You tell the judge before you start which exercise you wish to opt out of (your wild card--you automatically get full credit points for that exercise). If you have a particular issue, you can also let the judge know, and ask the judge's thoughts on correcting your dog (you are not allowed any corrections in "normal" obedience, obviously).

For example, I knew someone who used wild card open classes to work on certain things with her golden, because he was so smart, he knew the difference between a trial, and just obedience drill class. She corrected her dog, and of course got dinged for it, but it didn't matter because she was in wild card, and it wasn't going to count towards a leg anyway. But she always checked with the judge--some would allow slight corrections--some none at all--the judges realize exactly what you have pointed out--there's not enough opportunity to practice before trials, and depending on the problem, this can be one way. If I knew a dog was aggressive, I wouldn't stay quiet--too many other dogs could be harmed, and I would let the judge know, even if the owner was upset.

As for the incident, this is a great example of where we learned there was a dog fight, and then once we got the facts--it was controlled, problem solved, dogs not hurt, and all was well. And as a matter of fact, our wonderful, friendly breed was the instigator--how would we feel if that was an Am Staff? Would we still brush it off, or paint Am Staff with a big "x?" This incident points out that no matter what breed--including our own--anything can happen and we have to be our best responsible selves (which I realize isn't easy). BTW, I know several people with Tervs, those are tough dogs--that golden was lucky to have picked on a softie.


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## hotel4dogs

I agree with Steph, I think a lot of people *know* their dog isn't ready and they go into the ring anyway. 
And it really depends on in what way the dog isn't ready. If you know your dog might not pick up the correct scent article 100% of the time, it's not the same as thinking your dog might get up and visit other dogs on the sits and downs. 
In this area, there are lots and lots of fun matches and sanctioned matches in all sorts of different places. That can be really helpful, because you can ask a friend to watch your dog, ask the "judge" or a ring steward to watch your dog, etc.
I steward fun matches for our club every month, and several times people have asked me to go in and correct or reward their dog on an OOS sit or down. It really helps when the dog thinks the person in the ring is able to come in and praise or correct. 
The "judge" and ring stewards at fun matches can usually tell you honestly if your dog is ready or not for a formal show, if you ask them. If someone's dog keeps getting up on the sit, or I have to keep standing in front of him/her to keep him/her sitting, I will tell that person quite honestly that their dog isn't quite ready to go into a show. 




FlyingQuizini said:


> I think that's pretty much what you have to do, but the problem is, IMO, that many people go into the ring with a dog who isn't quite ready (solid) but they are crossing their fingers and hoping for the best.
> 
> Glad somebody got to the bottom of the incident and that no dogs were hurt.


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## 2golddogs

Thank you for letting us know what happened. The sit/down stays are exactly the exercise Jackson and I need to work on at matches. I was a steward at a match our club had last month and the judge offered participants a lot of great advice, especially on the group stay. Jackson also does great in our yard but fidgets in class, especially on the down. We always do the exercise at the end of class and I think by then Jackson just has had enough. I'm thinking of taking him outside for a break to see if that helps.


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## BayBeams

One of the most frustrating things about groups and obedience trials in general is that people put their "iffy" dogs in the ring. I'm not talking about dogs that simply are not ready to show but those dogs that shouldn't be shown...ever.
I know of such a dog that the owner insists on showing that is so on the edge that even she says she has to be careful which dogs are next to hers because a casual glance by another dog may result in an altercation that won't be pretty.
This person insists that her training skills are good enough to keep the dog under control and that she has put so much work into her dog that she can't turn back now. I am sure she could find other hobbies to do with this dog that won't put others at risk.
I do think obedience for the most part is a safe sport and provides an avenue for developing a relationship with our dogs. If people would just use common sense and make sure they have a solid dog that is ready to compete before entering a trial we would all be in a better place. The occasional squirmish is not enough to keep me from playing along with my dogs.


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

Since Casey was "assaulted" during a "fun match" last fall, I have been very cautious about who he is doing group exercises with. I have been much more vigilant about observing dogs and owners in and out of the ring. I am totally comfortable with asking for him to be excused from a group exercise when there is a dog I feel is not reliable present. He trusts me to make sure he is SAFE when I leave him. That is MY job. Obviously, as a handler you can't always know for sure, but you often know when something might happen. I would rather wait another day for a Q then deal for months or forever with an issue (or worse, an injury!) resulting from a dog fight. I am very comfortable with the honor exercises done in rally excellent. I have seen the working dogs break and come to visit the honor dogs, but at least the handler is with their dog and can intervene if necessary. I am uncomfortable with the idea of my dog being left alone to deal with an aggressive dog.


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## Loisiana

I'll also move my dog during practices if I think the dog next to me is going to get corrected a lot. The last thing I want is for my dog to think he's getting fussed at by someone when he's doing the right thing. I want my dogs to feel confident in groups.

I forget who I read (maybe Terri Arnold?) that suggests not putting the dog into a line up until the dog is totally rock solid and confident on stays by himself. That way the dog doesn't make any negative associations from being wrong with being in a line up of dogs. So that's what I'm trying with Flip. He has never practiced stays in a line up yet.


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## K9-Design

Loisiana said:


> I'll also move my dog during practices if I think the dog next to me is going to get corrected a lot. The last thing I want is for my dog to think he's getting fussed at by someone when he's doing the right thing. I want my dogs to feel confident in groups.
> 
> I forget who I read (maybe Terri Arnold?) that suggests not putting the dog into a line up until the dog is totally rock solid and confident on stays by himself. That way the dog doesn't make any negative associations from being wrong with being in a line up of dogs. So that's what I'm trying with Flip. He has never practiced stays in a line up yet.


I agree with all of this. I haven't done any line stays with Slater either. He is very good with his stays alone so far.


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## Maxs Mom

I don't do obedience, so I don't fully understand the exercise. However IMHO, at AKC agility trials the ONLY time the dog is allowed off leash is in the ring by itself. In fact we can be NQ'd if we leave the ring without the dog on a leash. So WHY does the AKC have a class where multiple dogs are in the ring, alone, with no one to stop altercations? Ok there are people there to stop them, but seems to me it should be handled much differently. Yes these are supposed to be trained dogs, but dogs stare and there is not a whole lot you can do to stop that. The wrong dog staring at the wrong dog is all it takes. 

Where I train agility, the owner is big in obedience. I see posts on our board all the time of fights in the long stay in the ring. I think this just has to be changed. Perhaps like someone suggested the "honor" or just a couple of dogs at a time. I know that would make the class longer, but it would be safer.


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## AmberSunrise

I went to an obedience trial today and saw a change in the OOS that I really liked. The judge just had show leads available and extra stewards. If a dog broke and stood and/or walked, a steward calmly walked to the dog, hooked the lead over the head and brought the dog out of the ring. If it happened on the sit, the dog was also excused from the down. 

For Novice, the handlers got their dogs and again were excused from the down.


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## hotel4dogs

that sounds like a great way to help protect the dogs!


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## Loisiana

I do like that they excuse dogs from the second stay if they moved on the first one. I have seen a few judges not following the rule, but for the most part they are. 

I do wish, however, that they would give it a different name than "excused," since in Open B that means that dog doesn't count for OTCH points. Very frustrating to find out the points you earned that day are lowered (or no longer exist at all) because a dog was excused from the very last exercise.


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## K9-Design

Loisiana said:


> I do like that they excuse dogs from the second stay if they moved on the first one. I have seen a few judges not following the rule, but for the most part they are.
> 
> I do wish, however, that they would give it a different name than "excused," since in Open B that means that dog doesn't count for OTCH points. Very frustrating to find out the points you earned that day are lowered (or no longer exist at all) because a dog was excused from the very last exercise.


Jodie, that is one area of the rules and regs I cannot understand. That and if someone voluntarily does not show up for groups after doing all the regular exercises OR one who is excused from the ring during the regular exercises. Well hello, that dog showed up and competed and whoever wins/places in Open B clearly out performed them. Why do they not count for OTCH points!!! 
Fisher's Open win went from worth 10 points to 6 because ONE person who finished all the regular exercises but NQd decided not to show up for the groups. Thanks a lot!!


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