# what do you all think of this breeder?



## karrielou (Feb 12, 2015)

I'm having some conflicting thoughts and feelings about this breeder. I saw on another thread that it's ok to name the breeders and get advice... I hope it's ok if I post the website link here and my list of pros and cons so far dealing with this breeder? If not, someone please let me know and/or delete this thread...

So I read through the threads that were "sticky'd" about buying a puppy and dealing with breeders: very, very informative! But I have questions still about my particular dealings with a breeder.

Sugar Creek Valley Golden Retrievers

I spoke with her on the phone and felt really good about the conversation and in general felt good about how she talks about her animals. She answered several of my questions before I asked them (about how the puppies are raised, with cats and kids; offers a guarantee til the puppy is 2.5 yrs old - but I don't know what that really means yet).

I have a few questions for her, as you can see. She has been very responsive and nice, and I did ask her in my most recent email a few minutes ago about the eye/hip/heart certifications, but haven't heard back yet. I will post an update when I hear back about that issue, as I see from other threads/stickies that that is a BIG issue and a big red flag!

So if she doesn't have those clearances for her dogs, I wonder if it means anything that I have a "good feeling" about her dogs and that I believe her when she says she has several return customers who, after many years of happy dog ownership, return to her for another puppy? 

pros
- BBB accredited business with A+ rating since 2012
- can't find any negative reviews online (though perhaps she changed her business name if her business practices were/are bad; however, I can't find her name associated with anything negative either)
- dogs look good and well cared for, healthy
- been doing it a long time, obviously an animal person
- I get a good feeling about her, but that's not something I can quantify or explain, and I "think" or "feel" the dog would be just fine. (FWIW?)
- I'm sure she's honest when she says she has repeat business - people coming back for 2nd and 3rd puppies after many years, and her litters are spoken for before they're born, or at least it appears that way.
- She had a lot of questions for me and because I'm _long-winded_ (gee, really, you ask?!) I answered them in our long phone call before she could ask them.
- "guarantee" til puppy is 2.5 yrs old - but not sure what that really means and I'm not sure there is a contract?
- application was comprehensive, asking a lot of the same questions other known reputable breeders ask, so it would seem, at least on the surface, issues of puppy safety and making a good match are important to her


cons
- only says "certified for eyes/hips/heart" but I don't know if she actually has offa or cerf certification
- no full names, only call names on her website
- $1200 for a puppy (but if she didn't pay for those important certifications that are part of a breeder's costs of raising the puppies...???)
- is there a contract with the guarantee terms? another question I need to ask her
- proof of 3-5 generation pedigree?

We are due to visit the "puppy premises" soon, at which time perhaps more of my questions will be answered. But so far, are these red flags really big, when you see the pictures of her dogs, etc.? Does it mean anything when I can't find anything negative online searching for business and her name? (I have found very negative things about other breeders and organizations doing the search that way, puppies who were very sick, etc.)

Thanks very much, in advance, for any thoughts and advice!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Until you can verify actual & complete clearances of the sire & dam as well hopefully throughout the generations, I would forgo any visits. I did see this statement from a cached puppyfind ad: Golden Retriever Puppies for Sale: Puppy 1 stating there was no cancer. Sorry, but there is no line that is free. She either isn't being honest, isn't keeping in contact w/ the pups she bred throughout their life, or simply hasn't been around long.

"AKC registered 12 week old puppy. He is house
trained. He has a fabulous pedigree with Top Brass
in it. Puppy is the 5th generation of my blood
line which has no cancer or blood diseases. Puppy
comes with a 2 1/2 year health guarantee. Will
hold till Christmas. Asking $1,200. 262-227-1171."

Doesn't appear she's doing OFA clearances for hips: "
I breed top quality American/English Cream Golden's for 16yrs.They have
"A" ratings on Hips/elbows/hearts/ & dna on file for breeding.Puppies come
with a vet health guarantee,shots,&worming."

Found SCVGR's Classy Macy Mae the Great AKC # SR79805606 w/ DOB 21 Sep 13, looking at the breeder's FB page she has a Macy who just had a litter which would put her well under 2 yrs of age & thus unable to have complete clearances.

Pet peeve of mine, I don't like the term "English Cream" as it typically is used by breeders breeding for color & who have no understanding of the English standard.

If she isn't doing clearances & doesn't compete, I can't see the justification for a $1200 price tag--though if people are willing to pay, it's the old supply & demand.


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## karrielou (Feb 12, 2015)

Holycow, you found SO much info, SheetsSM! I thought I was a pretty good detective, but couldn't find any info on her dogs. How did you find all that? Macy is one she's planning to breed later this month, when she's expected to go into season. I didn't know how young she is. Where did you find that? I'd like to look up Peaches, as that is the dog I was going to get a puppy from, again, expected to go into season later this month. I feel really badly for Macy if she's planning to breed the life out of her, literally. Thank you for finding all that and posting! Wow, I am impressed! &#55357;&#56832; I have a lot to learn about what questions to ask immediately, before I start a friendly rel'p with a breeder and the important question-asking gets awkward. SO glad I have you all to ask for help! Thanks!


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

A few other things that put me off based on the website, sadly there is not much dog specific information to go on. 
1. Listing affiliation with the BBB. There is no affiliation listed with any dog or Golden clubs. To me it demonstrates this is a business first and fore most. None of the reputable breeders I know dedicate real estate on thier website to BBB billing. They fill theirs with dog names, links to health clearances and competition accomplishments.
2. The pay pal link at the bottom. I really dislike the idea that any stranger can simply visit the site and put a deposit down on a pup. Again says to me business and comunincates that profit is first, screening homes is much further down on the list. 
3. This quote "have been breeding and raising Goldens for over 16 years. At Sugar Creek Valley Golden Retrievers, I believe its the responsibility of the breeder to offer lifetime support, for the clients, and their dogs. I'm interested in the betterment of the breed, and building long-lasting relationships in the dog world". Yet she lists no 'dog world' activities. Does not list any club affiliations, claims they could show their dogs but does not (technically any full registration dog could be shown), in 16 years, were are pictures of these dogs doing something other that being at home having puppies?
4. Based on the website pictures, (bare brick walls, industrial electric panels, wood whelping/puppy box with chain link around it) puppies are either basement or barn raised. So, I would want to see that area *IF* you visit which should not be until you get names and verify clearances on both parents. I would be very surprised if these dogs do have the OFA certification as that are referenced on the site. My guess would be that you are going to find 'vet checks' or prliminary reports.

If I were looking, I will be honest, the website alone would have driven me off. They are not what I am looking for in a breeder which to me include openness and translarancy about health testing. The fact that other people buy from a breeder means nothing to me.


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## karrielou (Feb 12, 2015)

Yes, LJack, excellent points. Thank you! I will definitely keep these in mind as I move to a new breeder. I was also very suspicious about the paypal thing, I wondered how could I pay for a dog if the breeder hadn't met me yet, and I gave her the benefit of the doubt that the paypal option was only there for convenience after an application is cleared (which actually is the case for her; she doesn't want payment til we meet in person, so I'm not sure why she has paypal on her site). Makes sense it would be a red flag, though, just the fact that she has it on there at all. I think I've run into a BYB of sorts? I'll move along in my search, thanks very much for helping me avert a potential puppy heartbreak...
I got so excited thinking of my furry baby to come, I whipped myself up into a Golden frenzy! And forgot myself!  
I have made prelim contact with 2 other breeders, Lisa Cleveland (no business name that I could find), and another one Kamaglo, Kamaglo - Home. I would feel much more comfortable dealing with them. Any thoughts about them?


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

'Kamaglo' seems worth a closer investigation for sure. Not sure of the other name you mentioned. I know it's tough, I've been there as well. But 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure', right? Meaning that taking the time to find the right breeder will save you heartbreak and money down the line. Clearances- and PROOF of them- are non-negotiable. It's not about money, and you're not getting a deal if you buy a cheaper puppy with incomplete clearances (in case that comes up in your search); it will very likely cost you much more down the road. 

I know you're eager for your new puppy, but please do yourself a favour: take a step back, a few deep breaths, and try to separate yourself from your emotions while you search. Believe me (personal experience), there are as many (seems like more sometimes though) sketchy people breeding animals out there as reputable people. The sketchy folks can sound just as good on the phone, may have a decent seeming set-up when you visit, and will likely sound wonderful- that's how they're still in business. Trust your gut- BUT assume everything you can't verify yourself (titles on parents, clearances for the past 3-5 generations) is false. No clearances or incomplete clearance history = no deal. No exceptions. 

Also as a side note- anyone who says their line 'doesn't have' something like cancer is probably not being honest or doesn't know much about their line. Or the breed. It's goldens. If anyone's breeding a line without cancer I'll ride out on my unicorn and stand in line to buy 3 of them...


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Lisa (Rosecrest) and Maureen (Kamaglo) are both long time, respected breeders. Maureen is an AKC judge, approved for Labs and Goldens.

I would recommend either one of them, but as always, do your due diligence on a litter beforehand.

I agree, I would not recommend Sugar Creek Valley.


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## karrielou (Feb 12, 2015)

Thank you Dancer and Linda! So great to know about Lisa's and Maureen's reputations. Their info and responses sure seem great. But you're right, I will still be careful with the litter, whichever breeder we end up moving forward with. And I will have to keep my emotions in check! Easier said than done!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

It is always exciting when you are looking for a new member of the family  and it can be hard to make the tough decisions and stick to your guns as far as clearances, etc. go, but it is so worth it in the long run!


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## KathyL (Jul 6, 2011)

Hi KarrieLou and welcome! I've been looking at this thread and you have gotten some very good feedback. You might want to take a look at the Badger Golden Retriever Club, I think they have breeder referrals and they are just another good resource. I was a member many years ago, very inactive, but I always found them to be a good resource and recall getting referrals for trainers when I had a very difficult boy. Here is their link and good luck in finding your dog.
Badger Golden Retriever Club


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## karrielou (Feb 12, 2015)

Thank you KathyL! You're absolutely right about the BGRC, I meant to call them. They have a breeder referral and a very nice and helpful breeder to contact for help.  
Unfortunately I think there really are more sketchy animal breeders out there than there are reputable breeders. Gee, how fatalistic of me. Wish I could be more optimistic about it. Thanks all very much for your help!


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

karrielou said:


> Unfortunately I think there really are more sketchy animal breeders out there than there are reputable breeders. Gee, how fatalistic of me. Wish I could be more optimistic about it. Thanks all very much for your help!



It's bad in dogs- but good heavens it's even worse when you're trying to buy a horse... Honestly, I think the point where folks are trying to support themselves off of selling animals is where and why you find problems. Animals are a hobby, and very expensive (we're fixing to break $2k in vet bills this month, and maybe another $2k in the next couple months). If you make money off of animals, you're probably not doing something right. That's why it's actually true that a reputable breeder is lucky to break even in the long run, even though the prices for puppies may seem high.


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## karrielou (Feb 12, 2015)

Absolutely, Dancer, as I learn more about purebred animals, I see what you're talking about: animals = $ to the "animals as family breadwinners" breeders. And it's why I now fully understand why reputable breeders charge what they do. I saw on one GR breeder's website a full breakdown of her expenses so she could show why she charges ~$1900. I found that very helpful info. Can't remember now which breeder it was, my head is spinning from days turning into weeks of research.


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## karrielou (Feb 12, 2015)

I should really add that I understand it's not so black-and-white, animal breeding, and GR breeders! I am sorry if I sound judgemental, esp. since I am so new to this. I think I'm getting down that we'll ever find a nice family GR that I can train to be a therapy dog. Seems like it shouldn't be this difficult.


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## karrielou (Feb 12, 2015)

Which, by the way, the breeder in question in this thread hasn't answered my question about proof of the eye, heart and hip certifications. I wouldn't be surprised if she never contacted me again bc I backed her in a corner now. She had approved my application so she can't claim a problem with us as a reason to sever a business rel'p. Fortunately no $ chgd hands. It's her right to do what she's doing, just don't charge people the same amount as a breeder who does the certifications, and then lie about it. Ugh, sorry to rant, I'm just frustrated. Moving on and up to better things!


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## karrielou (Feb 12, 2015)

So this is the email I got from that breeder.... still sketchy with the prelim certification bc she's breeding the female before 2 years old when she can get those full health clearances, right? Does her response answer that issue specifically? It really doesn't, it seems to me. There were other issues brought up here on this thread too, so we won't go with this breeder. Not at her price since she doesn't have certification for these dogs like a reputable breeder would. Thanks again for any additional input you might have! This will help me have a fuller understanding of this situation and what to look out for next time.

"Hi Karen,
I am available on March 1,or we can plan a different time to have you come down . Moose has all his clearance but there not on the Ofa,he is 10 and they started listing them about 8 yrs ago. I have all there paperwork to show you when you come down or i can email you copies. Macy and peaches have their preliminary clearance for OFA,once they turn 2 they will get their OFA numbers.*
Thanks
Tish"


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Is Moose the "to be sire"? I believe this is Moose's clearances on OFA: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Did you get the registered names of Macy & Peaches. I believe I found Macy but it would be great to confirm. For me, breeding on prelims (not actual clearances) is a no no. What's the hurry for this puppy to be bred which would be her 2nd litter before she's two right?


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

Practitioner cardiac rather than a board certified cardiologist, don't see his CERF either...


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## karrielou (Feb 12, 2015)

Thank you again SheetsSM!
I'm sure that was the correct dog that you found earlier: Macy. For the life of me I can't find Peaches, which is the dog I would have bought a litter from. Yes, Moose is the sire. Though she didn't give me their complete names, I'm sure you found the correct dogs. Money is the hurry to breed those young dogs, I imagine. I wonder if this will be Macy's 3rd breeding, we don't know it's only her 2nd. Unless that's impossible with maturity timing and how many times a dog goes into heat.
Well, thank you kindly for your responses!


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## karrielou (Feb 12, 2015)

Thanks also to you Dancer for posting. I'm curious, is it difficult for breeders to get these certifications and clearances? I mean, is it an arduous process of paperwork and traveling somewhere with the dogs, etc.? Jeesh, because from my perspective as an owner, it sure seems like it must be difficult since it seems like such an issue to have up to date clearances, etc.
ok, thanks all, appreciate your input!


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Hips and elbows require a trip to the vet, X-rays and then have to be sent off for 3 different board certified specialists to grade so those can take a while. But they only have to be done once in a dogs lifetime. Eyes are every year but they seem to be easier to obtain. I know a lot of the bigger shows have clinics where anybody can come in and have them done. I could have taken Archer to have his done a month ago for about $100 I think.

ETA: I meant hearts and eyes can be done at clinics somewhat easily and accidentally lumped them together with doing eyes every year. Apparently my mind I mush after 8 pm and I shouldn't post :doh:


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

I thought cardiac was a one-time as well? And that (unlike hips/elbows) it could be done before 24 months (although I can't recall the actual age minimum for that).


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Hearts are done once and can be done at 12 months of age (or older). Doing the OFA clearances just requires a trip to the vet. As the above OP mentioned the heart and eyes can be done at clinics. Of course depending on where you live will determine if you can easily get to one easily. 
Her response just seals the deal of not going to them. For me, there is NO excuse to breed early and NOT breed without finals especially when you know that they exist. This just means they are anxious to breed and have pups for money..plain and simple.


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