# 2019 Worst Rated Dog Foods for Golden Retrievers (Thoughts/Recommendations!?)



## MygoldenandI922

I found this interesting article on worst rated dog foods for Golden Retrievers. The article is jaw dropping and very informative. What are you feeding your Golden Retriever? We are currently on Fromm.... 

2019 Worst Rated Dog Foods https://bit.ly/2G7Y1In


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## CAROLINA MOM

Welcome!

Several of the brands on the list I recognize, several I have never heard of. 

I feed Purina Pro Plan for Sensitive skin and stomach, have been feeding it for more than 8 years.


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## ceegee

There are some credibility issues with the Dog Food Advisor website - for example, giving very high ratings to fad (grain-free) boutique diets that actually kill dogs. The site owner is a dentist who is passionate about the subject but has no training or background in canine nutrition. In fact, the worst diet for a Golden Retriever these days seems to be grain-free food or food that is very high in certain legumes (peas, etc.). These types of foods have been scientifically linked to the development of dilated cardiomyopathy, a heart condition that leads to death if not diagnosed and treated in time. Most of the foods found in scientific studies to be associated with the condition in Goldens are produced by "boutique" companies: Acana, Fromm, Orijen, etc., none of which subject their products to feeding trials (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0209112). The recommendation these days is to use food produced by companies that carry out feeding trials. They are few and far between.



I feed Royal Canin high-energy gastro food to my dog. He does very well on it.


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## Megora

Hmm... that list seems click baity... 

Currently feeding Nutro Ultra and Merrick Back Country Raw Infused Game Bird recipe.

It goes without saying, I'm VERY happy with the results. 

Healthy dogs, health inside and out, no skin problems, no gut problems, no allergies, etc.


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## IntheWillows

Articles like these pop up all the time usually listing DFA as their source. 

With enough marketing it's easy to scare people into thinking that 'by products' are more evil than grain free. Fromm has been linked to DCM cases, grain free and grain inclusive versions.

We've always fed Purina Pro Plan (Sport/SSS/ and Large Breed Puppy currently). We've only consulted our Vet when choosing food, not a dentist or pet store.


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## Sweet Girl

IntheWillows said:


> Articles like these pop up all the time usually listing DFA as their source.
> 
> With enough marketing it's easy to scare people into thinking that 'by products' are more evil than grain free. Fromm has been linked to DCM cases, grain free and grain inclusive versions.
> 
> We've always fed Purina Pro Plan (Sport/SSS/ and Large Breed Puppy currently). *We've only consulted our Vet when choosing food, not a dentist or pet store*.



If only more people did....


I cannot believe the number of people who go by the completely uneducated people who work in pet food stores, just cause they're nice and "know their stuff." They know marketing information from boutique foods - usually nothing more. When I first moved to a new city almost 20 years ago, I went into a local pet food store looking for Eukanuba - and was told I was "poisoning my dog." What was she pushing? Grain-free. I never went back to that store again.


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## Charliethree

I have been feeding my golden and my golden mix Acana Ranchlands for over 10 yrs. (my other two dogs are feed this too) and they are doing extremely well on it, have never had any diet related health issues or problems with it. 

For those who are interested Champion Foods who make Orijen and Acana, does in fact do feeding trials.
A few links worth reading. 


https://www.championpetfoodsfacts.com/dcm-information/faqs-1/

https://www.championpetfoodsfacts.com/veterinary-professionals-questionnaire/


https://www.championpetfoodsfacts.com/taurine-deficiency-in-dogs/


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## jeffscott947

I remember may of those brands from years ago..Alpo, Kibbles and Bits etc..They were horrible foods 25 yrs ago and probably have gotten worse!
There is a Purina pet food plant here in Sparks, Nevada (Reno) and it looks and smells bad..


This will be my new arrival next week. (a gift from a friend across country) She is currently on Hills Large Breed Puppy and I will continue it until she is a yr old..I never thought I would buy anything by Hills, but this one looks good. Then I will be on the Hunt once again..I have 3 others that also need to be switched (Aussie, Border Collie and Lab/Border Collie mix) since their current food (Pure Balance) seems to be ditching the Chicken and Rice and going grain free.. More BS from Walmart..Pure Balance was rated 4 stars at Advisor too


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## Maggie'sVoice

Not surprising that it's all the low end Purina and things like ol' Roy and feed store available foods. These are usually marketed towards people buying horse feed, chicken feed and sick in placed like tractor supply


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## GoldenDude

jeffscott947 said:


> I remember may of those brands from years ago..Alpo, Kibbles and Bits etc..They were horrible foods 25 yrs ago and probably have gotten worse!



I had to laugh because I remember Kibbles and Bits from probably the 1980s, long before owners had the opportunity to read online reviews. We tried Kibble and Bits with a cocker spaniel that we owned. Every time she ate it, she would vomit. We threw the bag out after about 3 feedings. Horrible food. 



Your comment also got me thinking about other dog foods from the 1980s. I always that Gaines Burger was the oddest dog food and product. (You had to pay extra so it could be packaged to look like a raw hamburger. Sooooo 1980s.) Found this 1981 commercial on YouTube. Too funny.


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## Betsy

Please, please, please go on Facebook and look at the groups...taurine deficiency in golden retrievers & taurine deficient dilated cardiomyopathy. Dogs are dropping dead with NO symptoms & it is felt this is diet related. Some of the worst foods showing low taurine levels & dilated cardiomyopathy are Acana, Origen, Zignature, Taste of the Wild, & Fromm. It is believed grain free contributes but there have been cases on Fromm grain inclusive. The best foods recommended by those studying this situation are Purina..like pro plan, Hills, Iams, Eukanuba, & Royal Canin. These companies do extensive food trials, are backed by peer reviewed research, & employ vet nutritionists. Please educate yourselves! Your dog may seem fine...but in reality he may not be. Marketing touts other brands with wonderful ingredients...but it’s marketing.


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## pawsnpaca

My dogs have always been raw fed. To avoid the work and the "ick" factor, we splurge on Primal patties (the version we use is AAFCO compliant and has undergone feed trials - at least according to the Primal website, and has also been recommended/blessed by our holistic vet). 

We also use a limited amount of high-quality kibble, either for training treats or when money gets a little tight. Right now, we're using Fromm Gold as our kibble, but we circulate through many of the foods recommended by the Whole Dog Journal.


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## jeffscott947

GoldenDude said:


> I had to laugh because I remember Kibbles and Bits from probably the 1980s, long before owners had the opportunity to read online reviews. We tried Kibble and Bits with a cocker spaniel that we owned. Every time she ate it, she would vomit. We threw the bag out after about 3 feedings. Horrible food.
> 
> 
> 
> Your comment also got me thinking about other dog foods from the 1980s. I always that Gaines Burger was the oddest dog food and product. (You had to pay extra so it could be packaged to look like a raw hamburger. Sooooo 1980s.) Found this 1981 commercial on YouTube. Too funny. https://youtu.be/gmWF_tG5fYQ



LMAO Gains-burgers....made me think of cardboard burgers....I tried them once for my dog when I was a kid in the 60's and chucked the remainder outdoors for the wild animals!>


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## daisy1234

Betsy said:


> Please, please, please go on Facebook and look at the groups...taurine deficiency in golden retrievers & taurine deficient dilated cardiomyopathy. Dogs are dropping dead with NO symptoms & it is felt this is diet related. Some of the worst foods showing low taurine levels & dilated cardiomyopathy are Acana, Origen, Zignature, Taste of the Wild, & Fromm. It is believed grain free contributes but there have been cases on Fromm grain inclusive. The best foods recommended by those studying this situation are Purina..like pro plan, Hills, Iams, Eukanuba, & Royal Canin. These companies do extensive food trials, are backed by peer reviewed research, & employ vet nutritionists. Please educate yourselves! Your dog may seem fine...but in reality he may not be. Marketing touts other brands with wonderful ingredients...but it’s marketing.


Don't believe everything you read. Found this very interesting. It's no wonder we don't know what to feed our pets.

https://truthaboutpetfood.com/dcm-study-misses-the-big-picture/

https://truthaboutpetfood.com/is-it-any-wonder-pet-owners-are-suspicious/

https://frommfamily.com/connect/fda-taurine/


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## solinvictus

"Don't believe everything you read. Found this very interesting. It's no wonder we don't know what to feed our pet"

"The truth about pet food" run by Susan Thixton over the years has given out some valuable information. I believe her heart is in the right place. She has no educational credentials on the subject of nutritional dcm and as far as I can tell no one that is actually doing the research is involved with her. I am going to follow Dr. Stern and Dr. Freeman on this subject. 

We each have to weigh the information out there and just do the best we can for our dogs.

I personally think that the cardiologists and the nutritionist that have been following up on all the information and doing research are not trying to lead anyone down a deep hole. With the information they have they are giving us the best advice available at this time.

The FDA cannot make more than generic suggestions at this time since they don't have all the facts yet. They would be smacked with lawsuits from the brands that have suspected problems.

I am very thankful for the www.taurinedcm.org page and facebook page. Those doctors and nutritionist that have volunteered their time to take echo/taurine information from the general public along with the actual cardiologist reports and make the information generically available on the page so we can make up our own minds if we want to feed a particular dog food if we choose to do so.

Fromm is a boutique brand that has had dogs diagnosed with nutritional dcm from both their grain inclusive and grain free foods.'And some have been diagnosed after Fromm's claim of having enough or adding more taurine to the foods. 

One educated guess by those involved is that the foods are not being formulated well enough and some ingredients may be actually blocking the dog from absorbing the taurine or blocking them making their own. Many of the dogs tested have had good taurine blood levels that have been diagnosed with nutritional dcm. So they have the taurine in their body it just isn't being used for the heart. 

The only way to know if your dog is free of nutritional dcm is to get an echo no matter what food you feed.


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## ceegee

daisy1234 said:


> Don't believe everything you read. Found this very interesting. It's no wonder we don't know what to feed our pets.
> 
> https://truthaboutpetfood.com/dcm-study-misses-the-big-picture/
> 
> https://truthaboutpetfood.com/is-it-any-wonder-pet-owners-are-suspicious/
> 
> https://frommfamily.com/connect/fda-taurine/



I would caution you to be wary of sources and not to believe everything you read on the Internet. The "truthabout" lady, while clearly passionate about the subject, has no qualifications and some of her arguments on this issue are spurious at best. The scientific studies that have been published are peer-reviewed. Like solinvictus, I'm going with the scientists on this one. Research has shown that, if the damage isn't too severe, the heart problems can be reversed with a change of diet. That is enough for me. This isn't something that has been invented by the big firms to boost sales.


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## hotel4dogs

I feed Purina Pro Plan, Tito's echo and taurine are fantastic. Dr. Stern even asked to use him as a "control" in his studies.
As many of you know, none of my dogs were related. My Tiny lived to almost 17. My Toby lived to 14. Tito is 12+ and still hunts, plays ball, etc. So yes, I'm a big fan of the Purina Pro Plan foods.
But for doG's sake, everyone needs to stop shaming people for feeding less expensive brands of food and that especially includes internet self-proclaimed expert websites. Not everyone can afford to buy top of the line (financially top of the line that is, lol) dog or cat foods. If all you can afford is Purina Dog Chow, or Ol' Roy, then for doG's sake feed that. Love your dogs. They thrive on love.
While nutrition is important, it's not the answer to a lot of what we're seeing such as cancer, autoimmune issues, and so on. If only it were that simple. 
However, when valid, peer reviewed research comes out showing that certain foods, classes of foods, or types of foods are not in the best interest of many dogs, then don't bury your (rhetorical "you", not aimed at anyone in particular) head in the sand and refuse to believe it because it's not in keeping with your personal feeding preferences. 
FWIW, I've fed all of my cats Purina Cat Chow, and all of them lived to be 17-20 years old.


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## daisy1234

Yes, I fully agree, we can't believe everything we read. There is so much information out there it makes ones head spin. One has to make their own choices on food based on many factors. I feel some on this site though push Purina and anyone who doesn't feed it or speaks against it is not respected or easily dismissed.


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## ceegee

daisy1234 said:


> Yes, I fully agree, we can't believe everything we read. There is so much information out there it makes ones head spin. One has to make their own choices on food based on many factors. I feel some on this site though push Purina and anyone who doesn't feed it or speaks against it is not respected or easily dismissed.



A lot of people here feed Purina Pro Plan because their dogs do well on it, and it's often mentioned when people ask for recommendations. However, I don't feed it and I've never felt pressured to do so, or disrespected because I don't. Conversely, I remember a year or two ago, before DCM emerged, there was often pressure from the boutique product feeders (Acana, Fromm, etc.) on those of us who fed more mainstream foods (e.g. "Royal Canin is junk, nobody in their right mind would feed it"). 



There are lots of different philosophies: raw, home-cooked, kibble, etc. I agree with Hotel4Dogs: As long as there's no scientific evidence to the contrary, feed what you can afford and love your dog and he'll be fine.


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## Maggie'sVoice

hotel4dogs said:


> I feed Purina Pro Plan, Tito's echo and taurine are fantastic. Dr. Stern even asked to use him as a "control" in his studies.
> As many of you know, none of my dogs were related. My Tiny lived to almost 17. My Toby lived to 14. Tito is 12+ and still hunts, plays ball, etc. So yes, I'm a big fan of the Purina Pro Plan foods.
> But for doG's sake, everyone needs to stop shaming people for feeding less expensive brands of food and that especially includes internet self-proclaimed expert websites. Not everyone can afford to buy top of the line (financially top of the line that is, lol) dog or cat foods. If all you can afford is Purina Dog Chow, or Ol' Roy, then for doG's sake feed that. Love your dogs. They thrive on love.
> While nutrition is important, it's not the answer to a lot of what we're seeing such as cancer, autoimmune issues, and so on. If only it were that simple.
> However, when valid, peer reviewed research comes out showing that certain foods, classes of foods, or types of foods are not in the best interest of many dogs, then don't bury your (rhetorical "you", not aimed at anyone in particular) head in the sand and refuse to believe it because it's not in keeping with your personal feeding preferences.
> FWIW, I've fed all of my cats Purina Cat Chow, and all of them lived to be 17-20 years old.



That is not sound advice overall. I agree that you don't have to feed top of the line/expensive food for your golden but saying feed what you can afford saying "While nutrition is important, it's not the answer to a lot of what we're seeing such as cancer, autoimmune issues, and so on. If only it were that simple." That is not a correct statement as foods that are being talked about in this thread are in fact suspected of those very things (Cancer specifically)based on ingredients. Ol' Roy for example is preserved with BHA and BHT which are seriously suspected as carcinogens. Foods should also not have Ethoxyquin (another suspected carcinogenic) which is another preservative that's a no no. Food should only be naturally preserved with a Vitamin E (Mixed-Tocopherols) or citric acid.


Also, Purina Kibbles n Bits also uses Propylene Glycol, the main ingredient in making Anti-Freeze and which is also has been used in Space to de-ice the doors on the space shuttle. Both BHA or BHT and Propylene Glycol is used in a VERY popular training treat (Bil-Jac Liver treats) that most people have no clue about. It's insane to use these types of ingredients in foods and never mind the nutritional side of things, ingredients like BHA, BHT, Ethoxyquin and Propylene Glycol should NEVER be used in dog foods.


As far as expensive foods, Pro Plan Ad C/R 37.5# bags are $42 dollars which is more then a bag of Dog Chow but by the time you feed twice as much Dog Chow, you will end up paying less per meal so there shouldn't be a reason to feed Dog Chow over Pro Plan other then most people aren't educated on dog food.


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## hotel4dogs

We will have to agree to disagree and move on, because I will never agree.
Nutrition, as I said, isn't the be all and end all. If only it were that simple.
Studies have shown significantly more correlation between the amount fed and longevity than the actual feed. That is, a lean dog *on average* is going to live longer than an obese one, regardless of what food is fed.
By the same token, a dog in good physical condition that gets plenty of exercise *on average* is going to live longer than one who gets out of breath moving from his bed to his food dish.
Well proven that dogs who live in homes with smokers have a much higher incidence of nasal cancers.
Dogs who have chronic inflammation from parasites including fleas and ticks have shorter lifespans.
Lawn chemicals are implicated in many cancers, especially lymphoma.
We are just beginning to study the relationship between spay/neuter and cancer, although the relationship between early gonadectomy and osteosarcoma is pretty well documented already.
There is research ongoing that prenatal and perinatal events might be one of the largest factors in the later development of cancer.
We've been looking unsuccessfully for a genetic link for a long time, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
And on and on.
If only it were as simple as what you feed.

Regarding preservatives, the amounts used in the studies were just plain ludicrous. If you read the best known study (which without looking it up I believe involved BHT and rabbits) showed that a statistically significant number of the rabbits exposed to the BHT died of cancer compared to the control group BECAUSE THEY HAD LONGER LIFESPANS! And, some scientists propose that the strong antioxidant property of ethoxyquin outweighs any potential carcinogenic risk.

People also have claimed grains are bad...

These days everything we ourselves eat, and everything we feed our companion animals, is *bad*. 



Maggie'sVoice said:


> That is not sound advice overall. I agree that you don't have to feed top of the line/expensive food for your golden but saying feed what you can afford saying "While nutrition is important, it's not the answer to a lot of what we're seeing such as cancer, autoimmune issues, and so on. If only it were that simple." That is not a correct statement as foods that are being talked about in this thread are in fact suspected of those very things (Cancer specifically)based on ingredients. Ol' Roy for example is preserved with BHA and BHT which are seriously suspected as carcinogens. Foods should also not have Ethoxyquin (another suspected carcinogenic) which is another preservative that's a no no. Food should only be naturally preserved with a Vitamin E (Mixed-Tocopherols) or citric acid.
> 
> 
> Also, Purina Kibbles n Bits also uses Propylene Glycol, the main ingredient in making Anti-Freeze and which is also has been used in Space to de-ice the doors on the space shuttle. Both BHA or BHT and Propylene Glycol is used in a VERY popular training treat (Bil-Jac Liver treats) that most people have no clue about. It's insane to use these types of ingredients in foods and never mind the nutritional side of things, ingredients like BHA, BHT, Ethoxyquin and Propylene Glycol should NEVER be used in dog foods.
> 
> 
> As far as expensive foods, Pro Plan Ad C/R 37.5# bags are $42 dollars which is more then a bag of Dog Chow but by the time you feed twice as much Dog Chow, you will end up paying less per meal so there shouldn't be a reason to feed Dog Chow over Pro Plan other then most people aren't educated on dog food.


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## jeffscott947

Having received some valuable info from a member here..I took the Hills back (shoulda trusted my own instinct..LOL) and bought some Fromms Puppy (not the large Puppy grain free this time)..until I get things sorted out. Currently she is on a food that I simply do not like..and she needs switching as soon as she arrives. My friend lives in a rural area and not many dog foods were available to him. She is only 8 weeks old so I think a very small amount of time has been spent with the other food.


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## Maggie'sVoice

hotel4dogs said:


> We will have to agree to disagree and move on, because I will never agree.
> Nutrition, as I said, isn't the be all and end all. If only it were that simple.
> Studies have shown significantly more correlation between the amount fed and longevity than the actual feed. That is, a lean dog *on average* is going to live longer than an obese one, regardless of what food is fed.
> By the same token, a dog in good physical condition that gets plenty of exercise *on average* is going to live longer than one who gets out of breath moving from his bed to his food dish.
> Well proven that dogs who live in homes with smokers have a much higher incidence of nasal cancers.
> Dogs who have chronic inflammation from parasites including fleas and ticks have shorter lifespans.
> Lawn chemicals are implicated in many cancers, especially lymphoma.
> We are just beginning to study the relationship between spay/neuter and cancer, although the relationship between early gonadectomy and osteosarcoma is pretty well documented already.
> There is research ongoing that prenatal and perinatal events might be one of the largest factors in the later development of cancer.
> We've been looking unsuccessfully for a genetic link for a long time, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
> And on and on.
> If only it were as simple as what you feed.
> 
> Regarding preservatives, the amounts used in the studies were just plain ludicrous. If you read the best known study (which without looking it up I believe involved BHT and rabbits) showed that a statistically significant number of the rabbits exposed to the BHT died of cancer compared to the control group BECAUSE THEY HAD LONGER LIFESPANS! And, some scientists propose that the strong antioxidant property of ethoxyquin outweighs any potential carcinogenic risk.
> 
> People also have claimed grains are bad...
> 
> These days everything we ourselves eat, and everything we feed our companion animals, is *bad*.



LOL OK agree to disagree. Also, this isn't "people saying it's bad" but research. I'm not saying this cancer causing, but highly suspected as a carcinogen and studies have shown, liver, kidney damage if ingested. If you're cool with feeding chemical preservatives being highly suspected as carcinogens and Propylene Glycol as the main ingredient in anti-freeze, then by all means, go for it, but I will still say you shouldn't be telling people to ignore these things as they have shown to be causing issues in animals that ingest these preservatives. There is never anything worth the risk of potential cancers when these dogs are so prone to cancer already.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12396675

https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/content/profiles/butylatedhydroxyanisole.pdf

Propylene Glycol still has toxicity to it and what it does to a dog over time in small amounts is still unknown. It it worth feeding when the quality of the food is already very low to begin with?Again, agree to disagree.

“Propylene glycol is one of the least toxic glycols," says veterinary toxicologist Ahna Brutlag, DVM, MS, DABT, DABVT, associate director of veterinary services for Pet Poison Helpline. "
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/propylene-glycol-educate-yourself-and-your-veterinary-clients


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## hotel4dogs

Just for the record, propylene glycol is found in "pet safe" antifreeze. Regular antifreeze is ethylene glycol.
It's also often used in cake mixes, frostings, soft drinks, ice cream, marshmallows, breads, salad dressings and hundreds of other products.
It is generally recognized as safe in the US and Europe.

Edit to add... I have no idea if Pro Plan or any other Purina feeds contain propylene glycol, BHA, or BHT. Never looked. Considering how long my Goldens have lived, I'm not worried about it.


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## zeyadeen

i used to feed mine Pedigree as the ingredients were nice but after i read review and it seems that the ingredients are different between USA and Bahrain as you can see we have the first ingredients listed as Chicken followed by Lamb...i stopped feeding them this and now feed them Earthborn puppy grain free .. can you please tell me if its good, mine are doing fine on it and they like, i just read that it grain free could cause them to drop dead suddenly and that got me worried, i searched for PPP which highly recommended by members here and we dont have it, we do have royal canine. taste of the wild, Monge, Gymone, K9, Happy Dog, but i cant find review on the one after TOTW.. 

to make it short should i continue with earthborn or not, thank in advance


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## Maggie'sVoice

Yes I'm aware and it has been found to be used in both regular and pet friendly anti-freeze


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## daisy1234

jeffscott947 said:


> Having received some valuable info from a member here..I took the Hills back (shoulda trusted my own instinct..LOL) and bought some Fromms Puppy (not the large Puppy grain free this time)..until I get things sorted out. Currently she is on a food that I simply do not like..and she needs switching as soon as she arrives. My friend lives in a rural area and not many dog foods were available to him. She is only 8 weeks old so I think a very small amount of time has been spent with the other food.


Mine has been on Fromm large breed puppy gold since she was a pup. She's doing great and my Vet agrees.


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## solinvictus

Dogs eating TOTW and Earthborn have both had dogs diagnosed with Nutritional DCM.

I just do not understand why someone is willing to feed a brand that definitely has dogs diagnosed with Nutritional DCM. Fromm (inclusive and grain free) is one of those brands.


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## daisy1234

solinvictus said:


> Dogs eating TOTW and Earthborn have both had dogs diagnosed with Nutritional DCM.
> 
> I just do not understand why someone is willing to feed a brand that definitely has dogs diagnosed with Nutritional DCM. Fromm (inclusive and grain free) is one of those brands.


Did you read the studies or links? Problem were with grain free foods. I don't feed grain free and Fromm has changed their recipe. Did you read the second link about Purina? Oh I forgot this person is not "creditable" Just stating facts is apparently not creditable. 

Cardiologists and Nutritionists recommended safe pet food #1 – Purina

In a FDA investigation into Purina Pet Foods Beneful brand, the FDA found during inspection ‘above the allowable level’ of cyanuric acid and melamine in 2013 testing of Beneful. Cynauric acid and melamine are the deadly combination responsible for the largest and deadliest pet food recall in history (2007). There was no recall even though test results are evidence to 6 Purina Beneful pet food adulterations.

“Six samples collected contained ethoxyquin; however, the additive was not indicated on the product labeling.” Pet food companies are required by regulation to list ALL ingredients on a pet food label. Purina ignored that regulation.

During this inspection, Purina told FDA they perform “routine contamination analysis“. BUT…Purina refused to disclose to FDA exactly what routine testing was performed; the FDA inspection report states Purina “would not describe this analysis since the method is classified at the firm as proprietary information.“

During inspection, “Per a refusal from Nestle Purina, the manufacturing facility was unable to provide the actual content or weights of individual ingredients that went into the implicated lots.“

Perhaps the “cardiologists and nutritionists” blindly recommending Purina should visit the link on the FDA website to learn more information about Purina. Click Here to read the information from FDA.

And with the “cardiologists and nutritionists” requirement that a safe pet food manufacture their own food to “control the ingredients and quality“, perhaps a reminder is needed that owning the manufacturing facility is NO guarantee to safety. “Cardiologists and nutritionists” recommending Purina must have missed this recent Purina recall for putting a cat food into the marketplace that contained plastic pieces.

I have a problem with people who claim they know all the facts and don't. We will have to agree to disagree.


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## solinvictus

"I have a problem with people who claim they know all the facts and don't. We will have to agree to disagree."

Who claimed they know all the facts?

Are you disagreeing that there are cases of Nutritional DCM diagnosed to dogs eating both Fromm with grain and Fromm grain free? 

Fromm's letter about adding Taurine was from back in August of 2018. Other companies have added Taurine also. Dogs are still being diagnosed on those brands.

Why feed Fromm?


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## jeffscott947

solinvictus said:


> Dogs eating TOTW and Earthborn have both had dogs diagnosed with Nutritional DCM.
> 
> I just do not understand why someone is willing to feed a brand that definitely has dogs diagnosed with Nutritional DCM. Fromm (inclusive and grain free) is one of those brands.



As I tried to indicate..I am not getting the grain free large puppy, but the Puppy with grain. One bag while I investigate with my own vet. Then I hope to make an informed decision. If these claims are "proven", I would be surprised that they remain on the market.


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## IntheWillows

It's also not just about grain free, but the formulations of the BEG foods and use of suspect ingredients. (legumes/peas)


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## solinvictus

Jeff let your vet know that the taurine dcm facebook group page also has a private group page just for vets. I am just guessing but there is probably information there that can be distributed to those professionals that couldn't be seen by the general public. It will give your vet more information to help you make a decision. Congratulations on your new up and coming pup.


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## jeffscott947

solinvictus said:


> Jeff let your vet know that the taurine dcm facebook group page also has a private group page just for vets. I am just guessing but there is probably information there that can be distributed to those professionals that couldn't be seen by the general public. It will give your vet more information to help you make a decision. Congratulations on your new up and coming pup.



TY @solinvictus


This whole food thing is out of control!
My other 3 (Aussie, Border Collie, and BC.Lab mix) are going back on Kirkland Chicken and Rice!


The new Golden Puppy will be on an entirely different diet for her puppy hood, and then hopefully some of this gets cleared up. I still remember those chicken tenders made in China that killed so many dogs. Unfortunately many once good foods were bought up by soap companys that have no real interest in pets..just the $$ they can reap.


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## daisy1234

jeffscott947 said:


> As I tried to indicate..I am not getting the grain free large puppy, but the Puppy with grain. One bag while I investigate with my own vet. Then I hope to make an informed decision. If these claims are "proven", I would be surprised that they remain on the market.


It's no use Jeff, some people just claim to know all the answers and are down right rude to others who apparently don't support them. Silly me thought this was a nice site.


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## daisy1234

IntheWillows said:


> It's also not just about grain free, but the formulations of the BEG foods and use of suspect ingredients. (legumes/peas)


Thank you! You are correct! People are panicking and do not know all the true facts.

Based on FDA's statement and previous research, the ingredients most correlated with DCM in dogs and used in dog foods are:

Animal Products: Bison, Duck, Lamb, Kangaroo, Salmon, and Venison

Plant Products: Barley, Chickpeas, Fava Beans, Lentils, Peas, Potatoes, Rice/Rice Bran**, Tapioca

** Previous studies found taurine deficiency in dogs (and cats) eating diets containing rice or rice bran


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## Maggie'sVoice

I think the rice thing is a coincidence. If your can't have legumes, potatoes or rice in a dog food then there is no safe dry dog food out there. Just because a food had rice in the food and DCM was found, doesn't mean that is the reason. People are just including anything and everything. It's starting to get to the point of epic paranoia. Maybe dogs just shouldn't eat anymore lol


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## Jmcarp83

My 11.5 month old is currently in the transition from Purina Pro Plan Large Breed Puppy to the Adult Version w/ Instinct Freeze Dried Raw thrown in.


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## carlswans

I posted this article awhile back, but seems appropriate in view of this thread.

What Should We Be Feeding Our Pet? 

I am one of many pet owners who are deeply saddened at the loss of their pet to nutritional deficiencies of taurine or diet induced Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM). We find we are blaming ourselves for feeding a ‘BEG’ diet to our loved pet, as we were thinking we were feeding the ‘best.’ My Golden was not even five years old when she was diagnosed with DCM and passed just a day later. She was being fed a high priced, and well marketed BEG diet. After a time, I now have another Golden, and am doing what I can to educate myself and to feed her the best kibble, based on up to date qualified knowledge on this serious issue affecting many breeds. 

“BEG” diet are ‘suspect’ diets. BEG stands for Boutique Exotic ingredient, and Grain-free. 

 Boutique - A boutique diet is one made by a pet food manufacturer who does not employ an appropriately qualified team of experts to study and formulate their diets. These companies often rely on marketing trends rather than testing and nutritional research. 
 Exotic Ingredients- These are ingredients not classically found in pet foods and consist of animal proteins such as kangaroo, buffalo/bison, ostrich, alligator, duck, lamb, salmon, venison, and rabbit. 
 Grain-free: These are diets that are free of ingredients such as barley, buckwheat, corn, oats, quinoa, and rice. More recently, these traditional grains have been replaced with pulse ingredients (legume seeds such as peas, lentils, various beans and chickpeas) and it is these pulse ingredients that are currently thought to be a major contributor to the development of NM-DCM. 
The best thing one can do is to buy your dog food from a company that meets criteria/guidelines from both: 

(1) AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials)
and
(2) WSAVA (WSAVA's is a global veterinary community, with a primary purpose to advance the quality and availability of small animal medicine and surgery, creating a unified standard of care for the benefit of animals and humankind.”) criteria.

https://www.wsava.org/WSAVA/media/Ar...r-your-Pet.pdf

It is recommended that your food company employ at least one full-time nutritionist(which must be a PhD or boarded DVM nutritionist), that all the company’s diets are formulated by nutritionists at these levels of expertise, and that the company not release a formula without testing and trialing that formula using the feed trial protocols established by the AAFCO. In other words, no diet is sold until it proves that it nourishes real dogs, under real conditions, rather than just having the right nutritional math but never having been tested. The company should do a huge amount of quality testing, and every batch coming into the plant should be tested. The company should manufacture the diet themselves, so it can control the ingredients and quality; it should not just send a recipe and a bag label design to a plant that makes food for many companies. And the company should subject its diets to peer-reviewed scientific research and be able to back up any of its claims with data that is available to the public. This is the unanimous assessment of cardiologist and nutritionists who uncovered the taurine-DCM relationship.

There are four US dog food brands that we know satisfy these criteria:
Purina (most formulas)
Hills (Science Diet)
Royal Canin
Eukanuba 

A lot of Dog Food brands have done an excellent job marketing their kibble and their delicious human-appealing ingredient words, and a pretty poor job making sure that they’re nourishing our dogs. It is difficult to find even a single lots-o-stars brand that employs a full-time nutritionist, let alone meets the other criteria. So, you’ll find that when it comes to talking about lower-risk foods, the same companies are going to get mentioned a lot. 
Purina (most formulas), Hills (Science Diet), Royal Canin, and Eukanuba


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## Ksm

Alright, up until now I was thinking Fromm was a great brand to feed since they've never had a recall and seem to use fresh ingredients daily. I was feeding grain-free but this site convinced me that wasn't a good idea so I went to the Fromm Gold Large Breed that includes grain. My Golden is almost 5 and now he's started showing more skin rashes and bites at them, leaving scabs. Brought up to my vet changing the food since it could be a source and she agreed. 
Based on everything I read here Royal Canin seems to work for people but she also recommended Natural Balance Limited Ingredients. 

What are your guys' thoughts on what we should go with? I am open to suggestions from everyone!

Thanks guys.


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## solinvictus

I am so sorry for your loss of Abby. Always in our hearts. May your new journey be filled with love and joy. We all love our dogs and do the best we can with the information that is out there.


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## Steller01

Can you send the link(s) to this research please, particularly published work from the UC-Davis study. I have poked around online without finding anything very specific. I did request to join the DCM-golden retriever list in case the links are there already.


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## Shnga

Having a golden that died fairly young (8) and suddenly of cancer and now having a 7 month old puppy this food conversation is fascinating to me. I've been struggling since we got our puppy with what to feed her. I settled on Purina Pro Plan Large Breed Puppy, based on the information on this site, my friend who is a breeder and my vet, but her stomach seemed to churn and she was quite gassy on it. I then changed to the Chicken and Rice recipe from Just Food For Dogs. It's fresh, real food and the recipes have been formulated and tested by nutritionists and vets. I've actually been making it at my house and my two dogs LOVE it and are doing well on it. No more gas and her poops are pretty small, well formed and not at all stinky. Way different that when on the Purina. Problem is that even if I make it myself, it is cost prohibitive for my family. It costs us about $10/day to feed our two dogs (one golden and one havanese). Not to mention the time it takes to make it for them. It takes me hours, and I can only get about 9 days worth at a time. If I just had a small dog it would work beautifully, but the large amount that our golden needs daily just doesn't make sense for us. So I'm back to the drawing board and trying to figure out what to feed them. I'm interested in feeding raw, but so far all the options I've found are going to cost us about the same amount as JFFD. I love our dogs and just want to feed them the absolute best thing I can. I wish the information out there was more clear. It is all so confusing and there are so many differing opinions. Ugh.


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## Brave

jeffscott947 said:


> My other 3 (Aussie, Border Collie, and BC.Lab mix) are going back on Kirkland Chicken and Rice!


A word of caution. My 4 year old flat coat mix was on Kirkland (Nature's Domain Turkey and Sweet Potato) for 3 years (from 6 months to 3.5 years old). When I found out about the DCM concern, I had her tested (cause it's a GF food) and she tested low (171 when the min. normal is 200). I took her in for an echo and luckily her heart was fine. I switched her to PPP 30/20 (cause it's what my show dog is on) and 6 months after that test, retested her and she came in at 240. No supplements. No change in her life except switched her kibble.


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## jomiel

Steller01 said:


> Can you send the link(s) to this research please, particularly published work from the UC-Davis study. I have poked around online without finding anything very specific. I did request to join the DCM-golden retriever list in case the links are there already.


The UC Davis study is Kaplan JL, Stern JA, Fascetti AJ, Larsen JA, Skolnik H, Peddle GD, et al. (2018) Taurine deficiency and dilated cardiomyopathy in golden retrievers fed commercial diets. PLoS ONE 13(12): e0209112. 
Link: https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0209112A8Vom0c38EEmmY53MiVFVrk8DKsDr7Bru8hq1c4l7x3obzfUU

Here's a summary article providing the current understanding of diet-associated DCM, how to recognize it, and a recommended protocol for veterinarians, written by Lisa Freeman at Tufts:
https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/full/10.2460/javma.253.11.1390


----------



## jeffscott947

Brave said:


> A word of caution. My 4 year old flat coat mix was on Kirkland (Nature's Domain Turkey and Sweet Potato) for 3 years (from 6 months to 3.5 years old). When I found out about the DCM concern, I had her tested (cause it's a GF food) and she tested low (171 when the min. normal is 200). I took her in for an echo and luckily her heart was fine. I switched her to PPP 30/20 (cause it's what my show dog is on) and 6 months after that test, retested her and she came in at 240. No supplements. No change in her life except switched her kibble.


 I don't and never have feed their TOTW knockoff..I am only going by my own experiences with 5 other dogs..over 25+ yrs. )not Goldens)

Kirkland Chicken and Rice..Nothing else..In fact the first bag just arrived today..I will begin mixing it soon for the transition of the other 3 adults..For now the new Golden (coming this Friday)will eat Fromms Gold Puppy) NOT the Large Puppy grain free formula.


I have spent many hrs trying to research this and TBH..I will stop until I see my vet next week.


----------



## Betsy

Please go to the Facebook taurine pages. They have FACTS!! There are tables to look at that state breed of dog, what they’re eating, taurine levels, & whether there is dcm diagnosed by echo. You may be surprised!


----------



## jeffscott947

Betsy said:


> Please go to the Facebook taurine pages. They have FACTS!! There are tables to look at that state breed of dog, what they’re eating, taurine levels, & whether there is dcm diagnosed by echo. You may be surprised!



I would but, I will not join FB! Never have and never will. In fact, NO Social Media..EVER. There are way too many sources for the information that I need without social media exposure. 



Could you tell us where these facts come from and how large was the sample(s) tested.


----------



## Betsy

Please google taurine studies...dcm....UC Davis. A wealth of information will come up!


----------



## jeffscott947

Betsy said:


> Please google taurine studies...dcm....UC Davis. A wealth of information will come up!



TY....I already read that..I also have Aussies and respect UCDavis (MDR1 mutant gene); but I would need to see a more inclusive study..24 dogs is way too small, but still food for thought.


----------



## ceegee

jeffscott947 said:


> TY....I already read that..I also have Aussies and respect UCDavis (MDR1 mutant gene); but I would need to see a more inclusive study..24 dogs is way too small, but still food for thought.



I understand the need for information, truly. However, there is research and there is what is actually happening in real life. In my fairly small dog community, I know of three dogs recently diagnosed with diet-related DCM as a result of grain-free or BEG diets. Two are Goldens, one is another breed. One just died of DCM-related complications. Another was diagnosed too late and is not expected to survive much longer. And the other has just been diagnosed this week.


This is not something that has been made up by the big four companies. It exists and it is killing dogs.


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## jeffscott947

I know that it's real, and will do whatever I can to protect the new arrival..but By God..She has to eat! 



Raw is out and I can't **** PROPERLY for 4 dogs; so I buy the best available that I can afford.


For me..If Purina makes it..I won't buy it! Seeing and smelling the Purina Pet Food plant here is enough to choke a horse..and I know what they use in the food.....this is a different foul odor!


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## IntheWillows

Well, your options are Hills, Iams, Purina, Eukanuba and Royal Canin. (Hills only had one confirmed case of DCM but it was with a grain free formula.)

Everything else is not recommended because of GF/ingredient formulations, not being transparent about feeding trials or having Board Certified nutritionists on staff. 

It would be easier if you could access the FB group somehow, as there's hundreds of internal cases being self reported and kept up with on a graph. It states not to share the graph, but currently there's over 500 cases of DCM reported-105 have died, and it lists of the brands of food with diagnosed cases. The top five "offenders" are Acana, Zignature, TOTW, Fromm, and Kirkland. 

There's also several articles that go into ingredients and misconceptions etc.

Of course you're free to feed your dog whatever you like, but studies are still going on to dig deep into this so that FB group is the closet thing we'll have to conclusive results anytime soon.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

IntheWillows said:


> Well, your options are Hills, Iams, Purina, Eukanuba and Royal Canin. (Hills only had one confirmed case of DCM but it was with a grain free formula.)
> 
> Everything else is not recommended because of GF/ingredient formulations, not being transparent about feeding trials or having Board Certified nutritionists on staff.
> 
> It would be easier if you could access the FB group somehow, as there's hundreds of internal cases being self reported and kept up with on a graph. It states not to share the graph, but currently there's over 500 cases of DCM reported-105 have died, and it lists of the brands of food with diagnosed cases. The top five "offenders" are Acana, Zignature, TOTW, Fromm, and Kirkland.
> 
> There's also several articles that go into ingredients and misconceptions etc.
> 
> Of course you're free to feed your dog whatever you like, but studies are still going on to dig deep into this so that FB group is the closet thing we'll have to conclusive results anytime soon.



That is a bit presumptuous to say that only 5 types of foods are OK. I feed a food not on that list and my dog is fine (363 whole blood Taurine and an Echo to be certain). I fed the Lg Breed puppy food and now the Adult from 12 weeks till now (20 Months on the 23rd). I feed Precise Holistic Ad LG Brd Ad food and no issues. A friend feeds her 3 Goldens Nature's Variety Be Natural line, not the GF instinct line and her dogs are all well over 300 Whole Blood Taurine levels and a good Echo for each as well.


Also ALL Kirkland foods are Diamond foods packed in a a Kirkland bag, so ALL Kirkland foods listed should also list the equivalent Diamond foods listed as well. So the Kirkland GF IS TOTW and the normal is the same as the Diamond Professional etc. Diamond is the company providing the private label food to Costco or BJ's (can't remember who sells Kirkland)


The deal is to feed a food based on ingredient recommendations and if you want to be certain just do a Whole Blood Taurine test from UC Davis that costs $75 about every 6 months. Don't feed any more then 1 legume in the good and keep in out of the top 10 and don't feed exotic meat proteins (unless needed for allergies maybe and certainly test while on those). Stay with a chicken or beef based food and you should be fine.


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## Betsy

I totally agree Jeff that 24 dogs is not a huge sample size...but it was enough to raise eyebrows! I wish I could share the taurine table..it is so illuminating showing many dogs with low taurine & dcm. This is such a complex problem that is not understood at all so research is ongoing. Dr. Joshua Stern has a golden so this study is very close to his heart. What I know for sure is I will try to do what’s best for my dogs...as I know we all try to do. Give them all an extra hug!?


----------



## Jerry N Connie Walker

Dr Tim’s Momentum. https://drtims.com/products/momentum


----------



## jeffscott947

Betsy said:


> I totally agree Jeff that 24 dogs is not a huge sample size...but it was enough to raise eyebrows! I wish I could share the taurine table..it is so illuminating showing many dogs with low taurine & dcm. This is such a complex problem that is not understood at all so research is ongoing. Dr. Joshua Stern has a golden so this study is very close to his heart. What I know for sure is I will try to do what’s best for my dogs...as I know we all try to do. Give them all an extra hug!&#55357;&#56469;


Yes Betsey it is! It got my attention 1st since I am a dog owner already, and 2nd that it came from WSU! My vet is from that school.


I am not sold on ANYTHING..Even when the "jury" comes in..we need to let the dust settle and see what, if any anomalies arise. (Dog food companys are like Big Pharma..Big pockets) Mean time, I will keep feeding the Kirkland to my adults (not Goldens) and the new pup will be on Fromms GOLD large breed puppy for at least a yr or until I change her up for one reason or another.

She will be here tomorrow evening!:grin2:


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## Betsy

Enjoy your new pup Jeff!! CONGRATS!!?


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## daisy1234

IntheWillows said:


> Well, your options are Hills, Iams, Purina, Eukanuba and Royal Canin. (Hills only had one confirmed case of DCM but it was with a grain free formula.)
> 
> Everything else is not recommended because of GF/ingredient formulations, not being transparent about feeding trials or having Board Certified nutritionists on staff.
> 
> It would be easier if you could access the FB group somehow, as there's hundreds of internal cases being self reported and kept up with on a graph. It states not to share the graph, but currently there's over 500 cases of DCM reported-105 have died, and it lists of the brands of food with diagnosed cases. The top five "offenders" are Acana, Zignature, TOTW, Fromm, and Kirkland.
> 
> There's also several articles that go into ingredients and misconceptions etc.
> 
> Of course you're free to feed your dog whatever you like, but studies are still going on to dig deep into this so that FB group is the closet thing we'll have to conclusive results anytime soon.


You are spreading misinformation about Fromm. The two varieties were salmon and lamb and lentil formulas and it was 2 cases.

Per the study data:

Champion manufactured pet foods were fed to 16 dogs that were diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy and low Taurine (15 Acana, 1 Orijen).

Diamond manufactured pet foods were fed to 3 dogs that were diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy and low Taurine (1 Taste of the Wild, 1 4Health, 1 Kirkland).

Ainsworth manufactured 4Health dog food was fed to 1 dog that was diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy and low Taurine.

Tuffy’s manufactured pet foods were fed to 2 dogs that were diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy and low Taurine (Zignature and NutriSource).

Fromm manufactured pet foods were fed to 2 dogs that were diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy and low Taurine.

Purina itself was not transparent about everything in it's own food when tested, but oddly that food is being pushed as the "only good food" You guys are going to believe what you want, but please get your facts right when you pass them on.


----------



## solinvictus

IntheWillows was not referencing the original study by Dr. Stern. The original study only had if I remember correctly 24 dogs. She is not putting out misinformation. She is referencing information available in the facebook group.


----------



## Steller01

Thanks! My sentiments as well in support of comments by daisy1234 and others. 

We all love our goldens and want the best for them. I much appreciate the efforts of some members (including FB group administrators) to research these issues and share what they learn. 

However I am also uncomfortable with the presentation of "facts", including the tendency to draw broad conclusions from small and non-representative samples. There is clearly something going on here. But I don't have a good sense of how we (as a community) discriminate between "diet-mediated" and "genetic" cases of DCM (yes I am a member of the FB groups and have read the materials pretty carefully). And it seems way too early to point a finger at specific dog food "offenders" and label other big producers as good and virtuous.

The recent FDA update seems much more balanced: it DOES NOT point fingers at certain dog food producers but does highlight potential concerns about the composition of diet(s), including grain-free diets with high levels of legumes, also some "unusual" proteins.


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## jeffscott947

TY Betsey..She arrived !
Unfortunately her people were feeding her Purina Large Breed Puppy, and as soon as her loose stomach settles down, she will be transitioned.


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## Maggie'sVoice

jeffscott947 said:


> TY Betsey..She arrived !
> Unfortunately her people were feeding her Purina Large Breed Puppy, and as soon as her loose stomach settles down, she will be transitioned.



Purina is fine to feed a while, what are you planning to switch too? Just make sure it is a large breed puppy food whatever you choose though. All life stage food is by definition a small breed puppy food and has the potential to cause your puppy to grow too fast.


Edit: Sorry, You said Purina and I was just thinking of Pro Plan large breed puppy. If it is not Pro Plan then I would certainly look to change it from the lower quality Purina.


----------



## daisy1234

jeffscott947 said:


> TY Betsey..She arrived !
> Unfortunately her people were feeding her Purina Large Breed Puppy, and as soon as her loose stomach settles down, she will be transitioned.


She is absolutely beautiful!


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

Steller01 said:


> Thanks! My sentiments as well in support of comments by daisy1234 and others.
> 
> We all love our goldens and want the best for them. I much appreciate the efforts of some members (including FB group administrators) to research these issues and share what they learn.
> 
> However I am also uncomfortable with the presentation of "facts", including the tendency to draw broad conclusions from small and non-representative samples. There is clearly something going on here. But I don't have a good sense of how we (as a community) discriminate between "diet-mediated" and "genetic" cases of DCM (yes I am a member of the FB groups and have read the materials pretty carefully). And it seems way too early to point a finger at specific dog food "offenders" and label other big producers as good and virtuous.
> 
> The recent FDA update seems much more balanced: it DOES NOT point fingers at certain dog food producers but does highlight potential concerns about the composition of diet(s), including grain-free diets with high levels of legumes, also some "unusual" proteins.



Golden Retrievers are not genetically predisposed to DCM, This is why Dr Stern from UC Davis started the study. He found it odd that a breed that doesn't generally doesn't suffer from DCM, was recently having a lot of cases of DCM. So with Goldens at least, you can safely say the far majority of DCM cases are from diet related DCM and not genetically caused.


As far as the FDA, they have to be balanced until there is concrete verifiable evidence to say something definitively. The people doing the study can be more specific since they are the ones doing the study and are putting more updated info out at a much faster rate. There isn't an agenda here with UC Davis and Dr Stern, this is an independent study, not a study funded and backed by any specific dog food company trying to get an advantage to sell their foods as some have tried to proclaim (other places that is, not on this forum)


----------



## jeffscott947

Maggie'sVoice said:


> Purina is fine to feed a while, what are you planning to switch too? Just make sure it is a large breed puppy food whatever you choose though. All life stage food is by definition a small breed puppy food and has the potential to cause your puppy to grow too fast.
> 
> 
> Edit: Sorry, You said Purina and I was just thinking of Pro Plan large breed puppy. If it is not Pro Plan then I would certainly look to change it from the lower quality Purina.





It is the Smartblend Large Puppy..colored and dye cut pieces..just like the awful Beneful they make. Still trying to figure out where the contents are SOURCED..Many companys now just say made in the USA with contents from around the world! BS to that..Not sourced in the USA gets a no buy from me.I bought a bag of Fromm GOLD puppy that I will feed her..Not the Large Breed Grain Free stuff (Fromm says good for pups that will grow to 70lbs..borderline and I am still looking). Her tummy is still making loose stools and I will SLOWLY transition her this week..Vet on the 25th. After reading the material that I located, both here and around the net..I will not feed grain free, not boutique foods (the grain free formulas have taken over). While the samples are low currently, where there is smoke there COULD be fire, so it's better to just stay away. Poor sales and bad publicity will be the only things to derail this Juggernaut!
Sorta like that chicken jerky stuff from yrs ago (and back once again). I simply don't trust most of the dog food companies to be honest..too much $$ involved. The media got a hold of the story and poof..no more Chicken jerkey for a while (Walmart bought them it seems)


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

jeffscott947 said:


> It is the Smartblend Large Puppy..colored and dye cut pieces..just like the awful Beneful they make. Still trying to figure out where the contents are SOURCED..Many companys now just say made in the USA with contents from around the world! BS to that..Not sourced in the USA gets a no buy from me.I bought a bag of Fromm GOLD puppy that I will feed her..Not the Large Breed Grain Free stuff (Fromm says good for pups that will grow to 70lbs..borderline and I am still looking). Her tummy is still making loose stools and I will SLOWLY transition her this week..Vet on the 25th. After reading the material that I located, both here and around the net..I will not feed grain free, not boutique foods (the grain free formulas have taken over). While the samples are low currently, where there is smoke there COULD be fire, so it's better to just stay away. Poor sales and bad publicity will be the only things to derail this Juggernaut!
> Sorta like that chicken jerky stuff from yrs ago (and back once again). I simply don't trust most of the dog food companies to be honest..too much $$ involved. The media got a hold of the story and poof..no more Chicken jerkey for a while (Walmart bought them it seems)


That's why I buy precise holistic large breed dog food. 95% of all dog food's vitamin and mineral package is from China. Precise uses 100% USA sourced vitamin and mineral package. Even if others get their vitamin C from Germany, Germany still gets 100% if their vitamin C from China lol. This is in addition to a few other really good features Precise has like BC30 probiotic and DHA Gold.


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## jeffscott947

Maggie'sVoice said:


> That's why I buy precise holistic large breed dog food. 95% of all dog food's vitamin and mineral package is from China. Precise uses 100% USA sourced vitamin and mineral package. Even if others get their vitamin C from Germany, Germany still gets 100% if their vitamin C from China lol. This is in addition to a few other really good features Precise has like BC30 probiotic and DHA Gold.



It's not only China..I am thinking all over Asia and SE Asia..If they had leftover grains or meats..I bet even N. Korea would get there garbage sold here thru other countries (Hmmm N. Korea is a major trading partner of CHINA!!!!!!!!!!!!!). 



I just went to a Safeway store (Western USA supermarket)..and even they are now selling Blue! That company was off my list before,, and now NEVER will return for consideration. It is very unfortunate that people don't understand pet food and the marketing..Education is our best weapon.


In my case, dog foods still need to be affordable with my multiple dogs..That makes my choice even harder.


----------



## IntheWillows

daisy1234 said:


> You are spreading misinformation about Fromm. The two varieties were salmon and lamb and lentil formulas and it was 2 cases.
> 
> Per the study data:
> 
> Champion manufactured pet foods were fed to 16 dogs that were diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy and low Taurine (15 Acana, 1 Orijen).
> 
> Diamond manufactured pet foods were fed to 3 dogs that were diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy and low Taurine (1 Taste of the Wild, 1 4Health, 1 Kirkland).
> 
> Ainsworth manufactured 4Health dog food was fed to 1 dog that was diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy and low Taurine.
> 
> Tuffy’s manufactured pet foods were fed to 2 dogs that were diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy and low Taurine (Zignature and NutriSource).
> 
> Fromm manufactured pet foods were fed to 2 dogs that were diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy and low Taurine.
> 
> Purina itself was not transparent about everything in it's own food when tested, but oddly that food is being pushed as the "only good food" You guys are going to believe what you want, but please get your facts right when you pass them on.





solinvictus said:


> IntheWillows was not referencing the original study by Dr. Stern. The original study only had if I remember correctly 24 dogs. She is not putting out misinformation. *She is referencing information available in the facebook group.*


Sorry for the confusion, this ^


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

jeffscott947 said:


> It's not only China..I am thinking all over Asia and SE Asia..If they had leftover grains or meats..I bet even N. Korea would get there garbage sold here thru other countries (Hmmm N. Korea is a major trading partner of CHINA!!!!!!!!!!!!!).
> 
> 
> 
> I just went to a Safeway store (Western USA supermarket)..and even they are now selling Blue! That company was off my list before,, and now NEVER will return for consideration. It is very unfortunate that people don't understand pet food and the marketing..Education is our best weapon.
> 
> 
> In my case, dog foods still need to be affordable with my multiple dogs..That makes my choice even harder.


Well I think you're taking it a bit far and borderline paranoia. At that point if that's how you feel you should just make your own food. 

Being sold in a grocery store isn't the reason you should stay away from Blue Buffalo. The reason is that almost 1/3 of the vitamin package is in those life source bits. 3 out of 10 dogs won't eat them which leaves the dog deficient and those bits aren't very digestible to begin with. A friends did would eat the Blue Buffalo very will so instead of tossing the bag out, he dumped it at the back of his property. First, the wild animals would only eat the regular kibble (it says something when wild animals won't eat something) AND after 2 years they were still there. The weather didn't even break then down. Right there, that sealed that food for me.


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## jeffscott947

Maggie'sVoice said:


> Well I think you're taking it a bit far and borderline paranoia. At that point if that's how you feel you should just make your own food.
> 
> Being sold in a grocery store isn't the reason you should stay away from Blue Buffalo. The reason is that almost 1/3 of the vitamin package is in those life source bits. 3 out of 10 dogs won't eat them which leaves the dog deficient and those bits aren't very digestible to begin with. A friends did would eat the Blue Buffalo very will so instead of tossing the bag out, he dumped it at the back of his property. First, the wild animals would only eat the regular kibble (it says something when wild animals won't eat something) AND after 2 years they were still there. The weather didn't even break then down. Right there, that sealed that food for me.



Pet food being sold in supermarkets is the 1st step to garbage imo. Once decent companies, that enter the supermarket business have already made the decision to throw their relationships away with regular pet shops, that try to carry better foods. I don't think it's my paranoia speaking, just being prudent (serves me well in these days). P&G has bought up once good companies and sell the product in supermarkets..thus the better shops here refuse to sell it (I bet they have changed some formulas too). here WAS one..Now out of business..I bet from word of mouth:
*california natural dog food discontinued 2017*



I tried Blue years ago before it was a "thing", it gave my dogs major gas and I went to Kirkland..problem solved at a better price, and happier dogs..and NO GAS!


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

jeffscott947 said:


> Pet food being sold in supermarkets is the 1st step to garbage imo. Once decent companies, that enter the supermarket business have already made the decision to throw their relationships away with regular pet shops, that try to carry better foods. I don't think it's my paranoia speaking, just being prudent (serves me well in these days). P&G has bought up once good companies and sell the product in supermarkets..thus the better shops here refuse to sell it (I bet they have changed some formulas too). here WAS one..Now out of business..I bet from word of mouth:
> *california natural dog food discontinued 2017*
> 
> 
> 
> I tried Blue years ago before it was a "thing", it gave my dogs major gas and I went to Kirkland..problem solved at a better price, and happier dogs..and NO GAS!


The reason foods go into grocery and big box is for growth. It is true they tend to destroy the pet specially relationships as they take a food only found in per stores and put them in mass market. They do this once the name recognition is there and built by the pet specialty with people who can explain why you'd buy food at $60+ a bag instead of a $25 bag of Ol' Roy. The reason for mass market is the pet store isn't producing more growth so they put it in to grocery. 

The formulas don't change just because they go into mass market. These companies have what they call MAP pricing (minimally allowed Price) which means they have to sell it at a certain price so they can't undercut brick and mortar stores for competitive pricing. It's actually the reason chewy 4 it 5 yesterday ago lost a lot of foods, they were selling below what they were allowed to set by the food companies


----------



## jeffscott947

Maggie'sVoice said:


> The reason foods go into grocery and big box is for growth. It is true they tend to destroy the pet specially relationships as they take a food only found in per stores and put them in mass market. They do this once the name recognition is there and built by the pet specialty with people who can explain why you'd buy food at $60+ a bag instead of a $25 bag of Ol' Roy. The reason for mass market is the pet store isn't producing more growth so they put it in to grocery.
> 
> The formulas don't change just because they go into mass market. These companies have what they call MAP pricing (minimally allowed Price) which means they have to sell it at a certain price so they can't undercut brick and mortar stores for competitive pricing. It's actually the reason chewy 4 it 5 yesterday ago lost a lot of foods, they were selling below what they were allowed to set by the food companies


 They called that Fair Trading which was made illegal many years ago in the USA (electronics especially), but companies do it anyway in spite of it. (Not sure if that was changed). Fair trading was good for companies and retailers and stifled trade!


In any case..they go into Walmart and supermarkets and I am out! Check out what P&G did to California Natural before shuttering it (numerous formula changes). Price is important, but so is good food. I also remember Blue being sued a few yrs ago for a misrepresentation of their food's contents. If I remember..the other big dog food companies did the suing..Including Purina.


I do agree that most people have absolutely no idea of why a good food is important..People unknowingly poison their dogs and can't figure it out. On the other hand I have a friend that was breeding Borzois. She fell on hard times, gave up breeding, and HAD to switch her remaining dogs to Pedigree. She knew it was garbage but had very little choice..A few made it well past 12 yrs old! Had to be genetics..


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

jeffscott947 said:


> They called that Fair Trading which was made illegal many years ago in the USA (electronics especially), but companies do it anyway in spite of it. (Not sure if that was changed). Fair trading was good for companies and retailers and stifled trade!
> 
> 
> In any case..they go into Walmart and supermarkets and I am out! Check out what P&G did to California Natural before shuttering it (numerous formula changes). Price is important, but so is good food. I also remember Blue being sued a few yrs ago for a misrepresentation of their food's contents. If I remember..the other big dog food companies did the suing..Including Purina.
> 
> 
> I do agree that most people have absolutely no idea of why a good food is important..People unknowingly poison their dogs and can't figure it out. On the other hand I have a friend that was breeding Borzois. She fell on hard times, gave up breeding, and HAD to switch her remaining dogs to Pedigree. She knew it was garbage but had very little choice..A few made it well past 12 yrs old! Had to be genetics..



zero formulation changes to California Natural when P&G bought the Natura company (Cal Nat, Innova, EVO) They left the whole company intact, Marketing, Vets, PhD Nutritionists. They never sent those foods into grocery. It was when P&G sold their entire Pet Care division which included Iams/Eukanuba to Mars did things change and they ended up in the Mass Market. The original Natura foods should never have gone into Mass as they were niche foods


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## Betsy

CONGRATS again Jeff! Enjoy every second...they grow so fast!!


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## BlazenGR

The latest update has now been published by FDA. Information really hasn't changed, but they do name foods that have been implicated. Information looks very similar to what we are seeing reported in the FB groups:
https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterina...-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy#diet


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## ceegee

BlazenGR said:


> The latest update has now been published by FDA. Information really hasn't changed, but they do name foods that have been implicated. Information looks very similar to what we are seeing reported in the FB groups:
> https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterina...-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy#diet



Thank you - that is very interesting.


----------



## jwemt81

MygoldenandI922 said:


> I found this interesting article on worst rated dog foods for Golden Retrievers. The article is jaw dropping and very informative. What are you feeding your Golden Retriever? We are currently on Fromm....
> 
> 2019 Worst Rated Dog Foods https://bit.ly/2G7Y1In


Fromm is actually on the list that was just released by the FDA as one of the brands causing taurine-deficient dilated cardiomyopathy. I would seriously consider switching. Fromm foods are very legume heavy, which is what causes this deadly disease. Pro Plan and Eukanuba are very solid food choices and you can't go wrong with either one. There have been no dogs that have been diagnosed with DCM who eat those foods. 

https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterina...diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy?#diet


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## jeffscott947

jwemt81 said:


> Fromm is actually on the list that was just released by the FDA as one of the brands causing taurine-deficient dilated cardiomyopathy. I would seriously consider switching. Fromm foods are very legume heavy, which is what causes this deadly disease. Pro Plan and Eukanuba are very solid food choices and you can't go wrong with either one. There have been no dogs that have been diagnosed with DCM who eat those foods.
> 
> https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterina...diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy?#diet



Curious..are all Fromm foods on that list, or just the Grain free? I began fromms GOLD Puppy yesterday to replace another rubbish food that mine was on from her old person. I thought it was the Fromms Grain free Puppy that was suspect. Not a Purina or Eukanuba fan. 



DCM is bad news, but other dangers lie in out pet foods.


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## IntheWillows

jeffscott947 said:


> Curious..are all Fromm foods on that list, or just the Grain free? I began fromms GOLD Puppy yesterday to replace another rubbish food that mine was on from her old person. I thought it was the Fromms Grain free Puppy that was suspect. Not a Purina or Eukanuba fan.
> 
> 
> 
> DCM is bad news, but other dangers lie in out pet foods.


In the FB group there were a few self reported cases of DCM from the Gold (grain inclusive) line. Unfortunately they haven't broken down the graph by formulations yet.


----------



## jwemt81

jeffscott947 said:


> Curious..are all Fromm foods on that list, or just the Grain free? I began fromms GOLD Puppy yesterday to replace another rubbish food that mine was on from her old person. I thought it was the Fromms Grain free Puppy that was suspect. Not a Purina or Eukanuba fan.
> 
> 
> 
> DCM is bad news, but other dangers lie in out pet foods.


It's all formulas. Unfortunately, Fromm uses a significant amount of legumes in all of their formulas, both grain-free and grain inclusive. Grain-free is not what the actual issue is (even though there is absolutely no reason to avoid grains), but the legumes, lentils, and potatoes that are in said grain-free/boutique and limited ingredient foods that inhibit the absorption of taurine. I would stay completely away from any of the brands on the FDA list. Our dogs all eat Eukanuba and do extremely well on it.

Why not a fan of Eukanuba or Purina? Both companies produce VERY solid, nutritious foods and, quite frankly, they two of the very few brands that can be 100% trusted at this time. There have not been any reports of dogs developing DCM on either of these brands. Both Eukanuba and Pro Plan have been around for many decades and have very extensive scientific research behind them, unlike many other foods out there that are literally killing dogs. They are tried and true and have been proven many times over to produce outstanding results in health, longevity, and overall body/coat condition. There is a reason why MANY show dogs and canine athletes are fed these two brands and why many highly experienced, well-respected breeders also feed and recommend them - because they work, plain and simple.


----------



## daisy1234

jeffscott947 said:


> Curious..are all Fromm foods on that list, or just the Grain free? I began fromms GOLD Puppy yesterday to replace another rubbish food that mine was on from her old person. I thought it was the Fromms Grain free Puppy that was suspect. Not a Purina or Eukanuba fan.
> 
> 
> 
> DCM is bad news, but other dangers lie in out pet foods.


I knew this was going to come up again. It was the grain free lines with Fromm. 

Did you guys who have read the study just ignore this?

The FDA said it is still “gathering information to better understand” how taurine may have a role in reports of DCM. Identified brands
The report notes that the FDA doesn’t yet know how certain diets may be associated with the disease.

Everyone is panicking and attacking brands instead of the actual facts.

“We are concerned about reports of canine heart disease, known as dilated cardiomyopathy, in dogs that ate certain pet foods containing peas, lentils other legumes or potatoes as their main ingredients,” said the FDA’s Dr. Martine Hartogensis.

“The FDA is investigating the potential link between DCM and these foods. We encourage pet owners and veterinarians to report DCM cases in dogs who are not predisposed to the disease,” Hartogensis said in a statement. 

Fromm is a good food! I had my Golden in today and had a long talk with my Vet. She as well is cautious and states we don't know all the facts. She said my Rainey gets an A+ on her health and supports me continuing to feed her Fromm. I don't feed grain free.


----------



## daisy1234

jwemt81 said:


> It's all formulas. Unfortunately, Fromm uses a significant amount of legumes in all of their formulas, both grain-free and grain inclusive. Grain-free is not what the actual issue is (even though there is absolutely no reason to avoid grains), but the legumes, lentils, and potatoes that are in said grain-free/boutique and limited ingredient foods that inhibit the absorption of taurine. I would stay completely away from any of the brands on the FDA list. Our dogs all eat Eukanuba and do extremely well on it.
> 
> Why not a fan of Eukanuba or Purina? Both companies produce VERY solid, nutritious foods and, quite frankly, they two of the very few brands that can be 100% trusted at this time. There have not been any reports of dogs developing DCM on either of these brands. Both Eukanuba and Pro Plan have been around for many decades and have very extensive scientific research behind them, unlike many other foods out there that are literally killing dogs. They are tried and true and have been proven many times over to produce outstanding results in health, longevity, and overall body/coat condition. There is a reason why MANY show dogs and canine athletes are fed these two brands and why many highly experienced, well-respected breeders also feed and recommend them - because they work, plain and simple.


You are not correct about your statement with ingredients about Fromm.
INGREDIENTS
Chicken, Chicken Meal, Chicken Broth, Oat Groats, Pearled Barley, Brown Rice, Potatoes, Menhaden Fish Meal, Dried Tomato Pomace, Chicken Fat, Dried Egg Product, Chicken Liver, Whole Oats, Flaxseed, Brewers Dried Yeast, Whole Barley, Cheese, Salmon Oil, Duck, Lamb, Carrots, Sweet Potatoes, Celery, Alfalfa Meal, Monosodium Phosphate, Salt, Potassium Chloride, DL-Methionine, Chicory Root Extract, Taurine, Calcium Sulfate, Choline Chloride, Chicken Cartilage, Vitamins, Minerals, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Sorbic Acid (Preservative), L-Tryptophan, Sodium Selenite, Probiotics.

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Crude Protein 26% MIN
Crude Fat 14% MIN
Crude Fiber 5.5% MAX
Moisture 10% MAX
I respect that people can choose their own foods. I don't like the name bashing without correct info though.

Here is Eukanuba
Chicken, corn, chicken by-product meal, wheat, ground grain sorghum, chicken fat, natural flavors, dried plain beet pulp, egg product, potassium chloride, calcium carbonate, sodium hexametaphosphate, salt, fructooligosaccharides, fish oil, choline chloride, vitamins [DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), biotin, D-calcium pantothenate, vitamin A acetate, niacin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid], DL-methionine, glucosamine hydrochloride, trace minerals [zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, copper sulfate, sodium selenite, calcium iodate], magnesium oxide, rosemary extract, preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid.

Here is Purina Focus
sIngredients
Chicken, brewers rice, whole grain wheat, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn, poultry by-product meal (source of glucosamine), pea fiber, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), barley, fish meal (source of glucosamine), dried egg product, animal digest, calcium phosphate, fish oil, wheat bran, salt, potassium chloride, potassium citrate, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, Vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), manganese proteinate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, Vitamin B-12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, calcium iodate, Vitamin D-3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), folic acid, biotin, and sodium selenite
G-4446
Manufactured and guaranteed by: Nestlé Purina PetCare Company, St. Louis, MO 63164 USA


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## jeffscott947

TY @daisy1234 
I read what I could understand by looking around the web. As I mentioned, I will never join FB..or any other social media which IMO is the source of many problems that they try to cure! Not to mention all the nonsense and fake stuff that winds up there. Luckily the story was picked up my the major news and my guess is that food companies are being brought back to reality..Craze wise, at least until the next one arrives.


My bottom line is simple: I try what has worked for me before (in this case Kirkland Chicken and Rice by Diamond for my 3 adults and SO FAR Fromms Gold Puppy for the Golden. I always read the contents and exp date on any new bag before feeding it. 

This stuff reminds me of all the phony human fad diets that came and went in years gone by!




Beanie busted stealing the remote..LOL


----------



## jeffscott947

Thanks again @daisy1234


Bad information is worse than no information!


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## jeffscott947

I have stated my reasons for never feeding anything by Purina (Nestle) (until I see different behavior from them), not to mention the dirty, filthy pet food plant they maintain where I live. (luckily I am Up wind of it)..


Now for Eukanuba....Mars (the maker) is also on my do not buy list, so they are out. I simply won't be pressured to go with the crowd.
If they all get bought out..I will cook my own (with 4 dogs, it is a consideration as the new puppy matures).


There will always be new companys to buy from that have not been snatched up by the vultures. Sorta like the Cannabis and gardening industries..MONSANTO, Bayer, GMOs and Poison! They try to hide the GMOs, knowing that it will detract from sales, but is required by USA current laws. (like a Lays potato chip bag..(also off the list for us)


----------



## Julie Timmons

daisy1234 said:


> I knew this was going to come up again. It was the grain free lines with Fromm.
> 
> Did you guys who have read the study just ignore this?
> 
> The FDA said it is still “gathering information to better understand” how taurine may have a role in reports of DCM. Identified brands
> The report notes that the FDA doesn’t yet know how certain diets may be associated with the disease.
> 
> Everyone is panicking and attacking brands instead of the actual facts.
> 
> “We are concerned about reports of canine heart disease, known as dilated cardiomyopathy, in dogs that ate certain pet foods containing peas, lentils other legumes or potatoes as their main ingredients,” said the FDA’s Dr. Martine Hartogensis.
> 
> “The FDA is investigating the potential link between DCM and these foods. We encourage pet owners and veterinarians to report DCM cases in dogs who are not predisposed to the disease,” Hartogensis said in a statement.
> 
> Fromm is a good food! I had my Golden in today and had a long talk with my Vet. She as well is cautious and states we don't know all the facts. She said my Rainey gets an A+ on her health and supports me continuing to feed her Fromm. I don't feed grain free.


Read for your self what was reported regarding Fromm. This is the link to FDA spreadsheet:https://www.fda.gov/media/128303/download

There are 53 hits in the spreadsheet but lots of that is in the comments section and people switching TO Fromm. 
I started my dog on Fromm Gold when he switched from PPP puppy (recommended by his breeder) to an adult formula and then learned of DCM and switched back to PPP adult simply because I have never seen it listed as the food source for a diagnosed case of DCM and Fromm was. 

FDA has specifically included Fromm grain free and grain inclusive. But none reported Fromm Adult Gold. 
The point is to interpret the results however you wish to make an informed decision, not every dog eating the 16 suspect foods are going to develop DCM but the list shows some level of risk. It's up to you to determine if the risk is worth switching or not.


----------



## daisy1234

Julie Timmons said:


> Read for your self what was reported regarding Fromm. This is the link to FDA spreadsheet:https://www.fda.gov/media/128303/download
> 
> There are 53 hits in the spreadsheet but lots of that is in the comments section and people switching TO Fromm.
> I started my dog on Fromm Gold when he switched from PPP puppy (recommended by his breeder) to an adult formula and then learned of DCM and switched back to PPP adult simply because I have never seen it listed as the food source for a diagnosed case of DCM and Fromm was.
> 
> FDA has specifically included Fromm grain free and grain inclusive. But none reported Fromm Adult Gold.
> The point is to interpret the results however you wish to make an informed decision, not every dog eating the 16 suspect foods are going to develop DCM but the list shows some level of risk. It's up to you to determine if the risk is worth switching or not.


Did you read about Fromm??

Fromm Lamb and Lentil Dog Hound - Basset 9 Years Male 65 Pound When I got (b)(6) as a puppy, he had sensitivities to foods. It was recommended to me that I feed him grain-free food. He was fed
different brands of grain-free food for his entire life. All of the foods contained either lentils, potatoes, peas, or a combination of all of
these products. He was diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy when he was 9 years old and passed away from heart failure
complications 4 months later ((b)(6)). I have another basset hound that is 6 years old and has no genetic connection to (b)(6). He has
eaten the same food as (b)(6) for his entire life. He has recently been diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy, as well. Although I
have fed them multiple brands throughout their lives, the following food brands/formulas were each fed to them for at least 1-2 years,
over a total span of 6-9 years: California Naturals Kangaroo and Red Lentils Formula, Zignature Kangaroo Formula (contains peas,
chickpeas, red lentils, and green lentils), Pure Vita Venison and Red Lentil Entree, and Fromm Lamb and Lentil. Note the
overwhelming trend of lentils. Basset hounds are not genetically prone to heart issues. What are the odds that I have 2 genetically
unrelated basset hounds that both ate lentils their entire lives and both ended up dilated cardiomyopathy? I am not able to submit this
report unless I name a specific product, so I am naming the brand of food they both ate last before I became aware of the potential
dangers of lentils. 

 A case in a basset hound with lamb and lentil. jwemt81 stated It's all formulas. Unfortunately, Fromm uses a significant amount of legumes in all of their formulas, both grain-free and grain inclusive. Grain-free is not what the actual issue is (even though there is absolutely no reason to avoid grains), but the legumes, lentils, and potatoes that are in said grain-free/boutique and limited ingredient foods that inhibit the absorption of taurine. I would stay completely away from any of the brands on the FDA list. Our dogs all eat Eukanuba and do extremely well on it.


----------



## Julie Timmons

daisy1234 said:


> Did you read about Fromm??
> 
> Fromm Lamb and Lentil Dog Hound - Basset 9 Years Male 65 Pound When I got (b)(6) as a puppy, he had sensitivities to foods. It was recommended to me that I feed him grain-free food. He was fed
> different brands of grain-free food for his entire life. All of the foods contained either lentils, potatoes, peas, or a combination of all of
> these products. He was diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy when he was 9 years old and passed away from heart failure
> complications 4 months later ((b)(6)). I have another basset hound that is 6 years old and has no genetic connection to (b)(6). He has
> eaten the same food as (b)(6) for his entire life. He has recently been diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy, as well. Although I
> have fed them multiple brands throughout their lives, the following food brands/formulas were each fed to them for at least 1-2 years,
> over a total span of 6-9 years: California Naturals Kangaroo and Red Lentils Formula, Zignature Kangaroo Formula (contains peas,
> chickpeas, red lentils, and green lentils), Pure Vita Venison and Red Lentil Entree, and Fromm Lamb and Lentil. Note the
> overwhelming trend of lentils. Basset hounds are not genetically prone to heart issues. What are the odds that I have 2 genetically
> unrelated basset hounds that both ate lentils their entire lives and both ended up dilated cardiomyopathy? I am not able to submit this
> report unless I name a specific product, so I am naming the brand of food they both ate last before I became aware of the potential
> dangers of lentils.
> 
> A case in a basset hound with lamb and lentil. jwemt81 stated It's all formulas. Unfortunately, Fromm uses a significant amount of legumes in all of their formulas, both grain-free and grain inclusive. Grain-free is not what the actual issue is (even though there is absolutely no reason to avoid grains), but the legumes, lentils, and potatoes that are in said grain-free/boutique and limited ingredient foods that inhibit the absorption of taurine. I would stay completely away from any of the brands on the FDA list. Our dogs all eat Eukanuba and do extremely well on it.


Are you asking me if I read about Fromm??? that's why I posted the link... I'm not really sure what your point was.


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## jeffscott947

I would love to see the NEGATIVE results that are claimed here regarding certain foods NOT on that SS (Nestle/Purina and Mars (Eukanuba) for example. These companies are alot like the big Pharm. companys here imo (USA)..they do what they plz, until caught...doctoring trials and tests.
No matter what fines are imposed (ala the opioid companys) the $$ made is well worth the trickery for them.)


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## hotel4dogs

The table (not FDA chart) does list the negative results, too.
Tito PPP salmon formula. Taurine 331, echo normal.
The scary thing is that for many of the affected dogs the first symptoms don't appear until it's too late to save the dog.
AND the only way to tell if an apparently healthy dog truly is okay is by echocardiogram. There is no other way. Period.


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## hotel4dogs

Oh and BTW Purina didn't pay for any of my tests, nor receive or report the results.


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## jeffscott947

hotel4dogs said:


> Oh and BTW Purina didn't pay for any of my tests, nor receive or report the results.


I was not implying anyone here..just the way of the big companys today. I still remember Celebrex very well! It almost put me in a box..It was years later that the truth was known and that the trials were made up nonsense..not to mention that it was deemed dangerous by the same FDA that approved it. Our Tax dollars (USA) HARDLY at work)


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## BlazenGR

Here's the deal in a nutshell: The companies that are implicated do not have qualified, veterinary nutritionists on staff. One of the companies boasts that their "chef" is a chemical engineer. Isn't that sweet? They are also not doing feeding or digestibility studies. Any idiot can take a bunch of ingredients and throw them in a mixer and feed them to their dog. That's not the point. Ingredients DO matter. Proper proportions matter. *Overall digestibility matters*. Because they aren't doing the feeding or digestibility studies, they have no idea if the food they are marketing is better or worse than the raw ingredients they started with. They truly are using your dogs as their guinea pigs. Last but not least, since they aren't doing any type of studies, they aren't publishing any research in peer-reviewed journals.

You can feed anything you want. What you can't do is completely ignore the fact that these companies continue to deny that it could possibly be their foods, even though the multitude of medical records indicates that the dog's condition improves when they are feed a WSAVA food, and in many cases, with no medications. BTW, the drugs that are being prescribed do NOT improve DCM, they are simply supportive care. 

How many dogs have to die? Lots of these dogs are likely not being diagnosed because their owners just don't know, or the dog died so suddenly that no work up was completed, or the owner couldn't justify spending $500 or more for an echo in a cardiologists office after spending sometimes hundreds of dollars at their regular veterinarian. 

Why are people so willing to believe the wonderful marketing campaigns? I doubt anyone will ever figure that out. Dogs are not humans. Your dog does not need to eat the same food you do. The millions of dollars in marketing that is being done to compete for your dog food dollars is staggering. Maybe they should have used some of it for qualified staff, feeding studies, and research.


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## hotel4dogs

Leslie, thanks for the educational post. Sometimes, though, you just can't get people to set aside their preconceived ideas long enough to consider the facts.
I thought Dr. Stern said it well when he responded to someone on FB who was being quite obtuse that there's not much sand left to bury your head in but you can keep on trying!


----------



## jeffscott947

The only thing I refuse to do is consult FB or any social media for my own dog's well being. (I will go to the original sources) Dis information and information manipulation solely for company profit is everywhere, and my dogs mean more to me than any banter on any social media platform. Yes..I hear it and consider it, but it seems as though not feeding anything made by CERTAIN companys gets a black mark, in some quarters.


It is also interesting that most of this discussion involves problems with the better and higher priced foods; where competition among companys is the strongest. I remain curious about the lower priced foods and any PROVEN relationship to this or any other problem involving food. 



Since I do not have 1st hand knowledge about vets/doggie nutritionists on a company's staff..I won't even try to go there.
Many years ago I had the pleasure of speaking with a vet on Kirkland's staff. Not sure if they still employ one.


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## CAROLINA MOM

The FDA posted an update as of June 27, 2019-

https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterina...rtain-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy


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## jeffscott947

CAROLINA MOM said:


> The FDA posted an update as of June 27, 2019-
> 
> https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterina...rtain-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy



*TY..that is the real information*.:wink2:
(I did see it before while googling for info)..


I noticed that they speak of REPORTED cases and still mainly talk of the higher priced foods..I have no idea how anything that has a certain woman's name on it could even qualify in any area except for price, but again..money talks I guess.


It is sad that Goldens top the list. It's also interesting that Mixed breeds are so high up as I would have guessed otherwise).With all the publicity, I am afraid that the lists will grow in number as more people take their sick dogs in for testing.. I am afraid that this is the tip of the kibble iceberg. It made CBS news again and it is impossible to ignore.


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## jeffscott947

This is very concerning to me as we almost constantly see "new and improved formula", on so many products these days.


Clipped from the FDA article.


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## Sweet Girl

BlazenGR said:


> Here's the deal in a nutshell: The companies that are implicated do not have qualified, veterinary nutritionists on staff. One of the companies boasts that their "chef" is a chemical engineer. Isn't that sweet? They are also not doing feeding or digestibility studies. Any idiot can take a bunch of ingredients and throw them in a mixer and feed them to their dog. That's not the point. Ingredients DO matter. Proper proportions matter. *Overall digestibility matters*. Because they aren't doing the feeding or digestibility studies, they have no idea if the food they are marketing is better or worse than the raw ingredients they started with. They truly are using your dogs as their guinea pigs. Last but not least, since they aren't doing any type of studies, they aren't publishing any research in peer-reviewed journals.
> 
> You can feed anything you want. What you can't do is completely ignore the fact that these companies continue to deny that it could possibly be their foods, even though the multitude of medical records indicates that the dog's condition improves when they are feed a WSAVA food, and in many cases, with no medications. BTW, the drugs that are being prescribed do NOT improve DCM, they are simply supportive care.
> 
> How many dogs have to die? Lots of these dogs are likely not being diagnosed because their owners just don't know, or the dog died so suddenly that no work up was completed, or the owner couldn't justify spending $500 or more for an echo in a cardiologists office after spending sometimes hundreds of dollars at their regular veterinarian.
> 
> Why are people so willing to believe the wonderful marketing campaigns? I doubt anyone will ever figure that out. Dogs are not humans. Your dog does not need to eat the same food you do. The millions of dollars in marketing that is being done to compete for your dog food dollars is staggering. Maybe they should have used some of it for qualified staff, feeding studies, and research.



Sometimes I wish I could put 10 "thanks" at the bottom of a post!


----------



## Melfice

Thanks for all the links and information everyone! It makes me very happy I switched my dogs to a raw food diet about 2.5 years ago! I wished I did it when I first got Rusty as a puppy, but I switched to raw when he was 4.5 years old.

I'm hoping Rusty's heart did not get a lot of damage when he was on kibble food for those 4.5 years. My youngest dog, Teddy Bear was switched to raw when he was 7 months old. So Teddy should be ok compared to the older dogs. 

Anyway, my next golden will never be fed kibble and that goes for any other dog I get in the future. I can see big differences, and I'm very happy I switched to the better diet for my pups


----------



## jwemt81

BlazenGR said:


> Here's the deal in a nutshell: The companies that are implicated do not have qualified, veterinary nutritionists on staff. One of the companies boasts that their "chef" is a chemical engineer. Isn't that sweet? They are also not doing feeding or digestibility studies. Any idiot can take a bunch of ingredients and throw them in a mixer and feed them to their dog. That's not the point. Ingredients DO matter. Proper proportions matter. *Overall digestibility matters*. Because they aren't doing the feeding or digestibility studies, they have no idea if the food they are marketing is better or worse than the raw ingredients they started with. They truly are using your dogs as their guinea pigs. Last but not least, since they aren't doing any type of studies, they aren't publishing any research in peer-reviewed journals.
> 
> You can feed anything you want. What you can't do is completely ignore the fact that these companies continue to deny that it could possibly be their foods, even though the multitude of medical records indicates that the dog's condition improves when they are feed a WSAVA food, and in many cases, with no medications. BTW, the drugs that are being prescribed do NOT improve DCM, they are simply supportive care.
> 
> How many dogs have to die? Lots of these dogs are likely not being diagnosed because their owners just don't know, or the dog died so suddenly that no work up was completed, or the owner couldn't justify spending $500 or more for an echo in a cardiologists office after spending sometimes hundreds of dollars at their regular veterinarian.
> 
> Why are people so willing to believe the wonderful marketing campaigns? I doubt anyone will ever figure that out. Dogs are not humans. Your dog does not need to eat the same food you do. The millions of dollars in marketing that is being done to compete for your dog food dollars is staggering. Maybe they should have used some of it for qualified staff, feeding studies, and research.


EXACTLY! THIS is 100% what the entire point is. The brands on this FDA list do NOT have qualified canine nutritionists or vets on their staff and they do NOT have proven scientific research behind their products. These are brands being produced by companies who came out of a hole in the wall years ago basically saying, "Here. This is what we think dogs should be eating. No real reason. We just think it's best." For years, these "boutique" brands have been pushing the grain-free/limited ingredient fad on dog owners and brainwashing/guilt tripping so many consumers into thinking that dogs need to eat a similar diet to humans. This is absolutely NOT true. Dogs have very specific nutrition requirements that are clearly NOT being met by these fad diets and they are making them extremely ill, even killing many. Dogs are carnivores. They do not need a kibble that is loaded with fruits and vegetables. They need MEAT and QUALITY grains. So many people have it etched in their brains that grains are the root of all evil, when in reality they are packed with glucosamine, which is essential to bone and joint health. It blows my mind how many people continue to run to the defense of the companies who are putting these poisons on the shelves of pet stores. :gotme:


----------



## carlswans

I am still 'kicking myself' for feeding my Golden, Abby, Arcana and Zignature, during her very short life, as she passed with DCM and was not even five years old. I was ignorant on pet foods at the time and thought I was feeding her the best. Arcana's Website response is a sad one and reminds me of how the tobacco industry reacted when the government came our with the suspected link between smoking and cancer. Read the below FDA Report. Scroll down and see the Charts. Arcana even denies the 'grain-free' issue. 91% of reported DCM cases to the FDA, the dogs were on 'grain free' diets. You know the old Duck Test is applicable here - If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. 

https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/cvm-updates/fda-provides-third-status-report-investigation-potential-connection-between-certain-diets-and-cases


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## Betsy

Soooo adorable! I am jealous!!


----------



## debbie624

jwemt81 said:


> EXACTLY! THIS is 100% what the entire point is. The brands on this FDA list do NOT have qualified canine nutritionists or vets on their staff and they do NOT have proven scientific research behind their products. These are brands being produced by companies who came out of a hole in the wall years ago basically saying, "Here. This is what we think dogs should be eating. No real reason. We just think it's best." For years, these "boutique" brands have been pushing the grain-free/limited ingredient fad on dog owners and brainwashing/guilt tripping so many consumers into thinking that dogs need to eat a similar diet to humans. This is absolutely NOT true. Dogs have very specific nutrition requirements that are clearly NOT being met by these fad diets and they are making them extremely ill, even killing many. Dogs are carnivores. They do not need a kibble that is loaded with fruits and vegetables. They need MEAT and QUALITY grains. So many people have it etched in their brains that grains are the root of all evil, when in reality they are packed with glucosamine, which is essential to bone and joint health. It blows my mind how many people continue to run to the defense of the companies who are putting these poisons on the shelves of pet stores. :gotme:


Just wanting to chime here. Dogs are actually omnivores. And there is benefit to feeding fruits and veggies. One benefit being antioxidants. Lets not lose sight of other health issues besides DCM. Like cancer for instance. Antioxidants help ward off cancer and unforutnately as many of us know. our beloved dogs, especially, goldens have a high incidence of cancer. I too like many here, are very confused as to what to believe. I have followed holistic nutrition mostly. I have a degree in human nutrition, not animal nutrition. There are unfortunately no clear cut answers yet. I fed Callie the "boutique" foods and rotated between Fromm and Zignature. I know I will not be feeding that again. But I wouldn't say that they create their food haphazardly without reason. That's not fair. My heart and my gut tell me to stick with brands other than the 4 big food manufacturers. WIth our new pup Coco, I am feeding PPP bc the breeder recommended it. I will keep her on this but plan to eventually move to Farmina or Open Farm which I believe have good feedback on the FB files. At least they did the last time I checked. I wish it was easier to know what is best.


----------



## jeffscott947

I saw mention here that Diamond had more recalls etc, and that Diamond makes Kirkland (Do check for KIRKLAND recalls..only a few recalls).


Following that Logic..Nestle/Purina Makes Beneful!!!!!!!!!!!!(such pretty die cut, colored chunks of garbage..LOL)

*ENOUGH SAID about that tactic*.


----------



## jeffscott947

jwemt81 said:


> EXACTLY! THIS is 100% what the entire point is. The brands on this FDA list do NOT have qualified canine nutritionists or vets on their staff and they do NOT have proven scientific research behind their products. These are brands being produced by companies who came out of a hole in the wall years ago basically saying, "Here. This is what we think dogs should be eating. No real reason. We just think it's best." For years, these "boutique" brands have been pushing the grain-free/limited ingredient fad on dog owners and brainwashing/guilt tripping so many consumers into thinking that dogs need to eat a similar diet to humans. This is absolutely NOT true. Dogs have very specific nutrition requirements that are clearly NOT being met by these fad diets and they are making them extremely ill, even killing many. Dogs are carnivores. They do not need a kibble that is loaded with fruits and vegetables. They need MEAT and QUALITY grains. So many people have it etched in their brains that grains are the root of all evil, when in reality they are packed with glucosamine, which is essential to bone and joint health. It blows my mind how many people continue to run to the defense of the companies who are putting these poisons on the shelves of pet stores. :gotme:


As for me..I only speak of CORN! I agree that grains are very much needed for a well rounded diet. Personally I never fed a boutique diet or grain free. I didn't know that glucosamine came from grains; I thought it came from shellfish or was artificially made. 

================================================================================

From a quick Google search)

"It occurs *naturally* in the fluid around the joints, in animal bones, bone marrow, shellfish, and fungi. *Glucosamine*, especially *glucosamine* sulfate, is extracted from the shells of shellfish to make dietary supplements. A synthetic form is made in laboratories"
================================================================================

As for defending companies that make dog foods..Purina is about the worst of the worst..Purina Dog Chow, Beniful etc. are among the worst foods available, and I compare them directly to the MARS Pedigree brand in the USA. Purina has the $$ to stifle criticism and manages to sell their rubbish to consumers. Marketing?..Hahaha..how about those cute die cut shapes and coloring added to attract dogs? It's all about *adding* Sodium Chloride (SALT) with Purina so you think your dogs love it..
============================================================================================
from a google search"

Does dog need salt?
Excess *salt* and salty foods are not recommended for *dogs*. ... Furthermore, *salt* in large quantities (called “*salt* poisoning”) can cause dehydration, vomiting, nausea, and diarrhea. *Dogs* naturally *need* sodium as part of an electrolyte balance, so small amounts of *salt* aren't bad for your *dog*.May 24, 2018"

============================================================================================

AS you may surmise..Nestle/Purina is NOT on my BUY list..FOOD or their Stock!


----------



## mzilke

I'm glad your dogs are doing okay with what ur feeding them. I'm sure there are people who don't posted on this forum who's dogs aren't so lucky. I will not feed my puppy any of the food that is on the list of 2019 Worst Rated Dog Foods for Golden Retrievers.


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## jeffscott947

mzilke said:


> I'm glad your dogs are doing okay with what ur feeding them. I'm sure there are people who don't posted on this forum who's dogs aren't so lucky. I will not feed my puppy any of the food that is on the list of 2019 Worst Rated Dog Foods for Golden Retrievers.



All that I can say is to *do YOUR OWN research and never listen to self proclaimed experts*. *It is prudent to avoid those on the list*, for now. I don't try to convince anyone to buy any particular brand...just to expand their horizons beyond what they "hear". It is unwise to avoid a particular brand's entire line because SOME of their foods are on that list. (sorta like dissing a whole brand because another of their foods had recalls) I have said numerous times that I do not feed my puppy Fromms GRAIN FREE LG PUPPY, (apparently ignored by some with selective reading) but feed their Gold Puppy that has grains. In any case, she will be transitioned shortly to Kirkland Puppy Chicken and Rice. Their %'s are right down the pike for a Golden from what I have read. People read what they want to believe and ignore the rest. Our dogs deserve better than that.


People should not blame themselves for feeding the best that they can, when it turns out the foods were no good. They should blame the companies themselves and those that promote them, period! If I am raked over by a company, I'll be ****** if I would ever trust them again! To this day, I refuse to buy a chicken jerky treat from anyone due to what happened a few yrs ago. Walmart refused to take the products named off their shelves and eventually bought the company (it appears). To these companys, our pets are simply a revenue source and nothing more..Remember that!


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## Maggie'sVoice

jeffscott947 said:


> I saw mention here that Diamond had more recalls etc, and that Diamond makes Kirkland (Do check for KIRKLAND recalls..only a few recalls).
> 
> 
> Following that Logic..Nestle/Purina Makes Beneful!!!!!!!!!!!!(such pretty die cut, colored chunks of garbage..LOL)
> 
> *ENOUGH SAID about that tactic*.


Diamond has had the most recalled dog food and they make Kirkland's. They also make some of Wellness' food, Natural Balance dog food and a few other dog foods. All have been recalled that were made in the diamond plants. Not a coincidence. Just putting the info out there.


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## jeffscott947

*Just who make what! <screen grab>*



Maggie'sVoice said:


> Diamond has had the most recalled dog food and they make Kirkland's. They also make some of Wellness' food, Natural Balance dog food and a few other dog foods. All have been recalled that were made in the diamond plants. Not a coincidence. Just putting the info out there.





OK..Let's set the record straight! (bad information is worse than no information)



Google screen grab..Your info plz? (about KIRKLAND dog foods!)


Edit: a bit more information about just who makes what..(shared with me by an anonymous forum member)


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## Maggie'sVoice

jeffscott947 said:


> OK..Let's set the record straight! (bad information is worse than no information)
> 
> 
> 
> Google screen grab..Your info plz? (about KIRKLAND dog foods!)
> 
> 
> Edit: a bit more information about just who makes what..(shared with me by an anonymous forum member)


Nothing I'm saying is misinformation...

Natural Balance was done by diamond as if 2 years ago, so if that isn't the case now that has changed recently. The wellness is under well pet brand but diamond manufactures specifically wellness large breed adult formula not the whole line. 

Canidae was the other food I couldn't remember that diamond also makes.

My info, I've been invited too and been to all of these manufactures production plants and R&D labs. Talked to most of the vets formulating all of these diets. These are Purina, Wellness (before it was well pet), Nutro, Iams/Eukanuba, Natura, Hills, Merrick and Diamond. This was from 2005 through 2017 and have been to some of them multiple times. I don't work for any pet related industry I work for PNC bank doing data migration and other work. I know someone that owns a 29 store pet dry goods retail chain (no animals) and was invited by then as I was out in contact to these food companies by him as I wanted to do as much research as possible. 

There other info I posted was from studies done by universities independent of the food companies but we're from years ago and can't remember exactly which places did which at this point.

Take the info as you wish I'm only trying to help you but you can only lead a horse to water, not make them drink it.


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## jeffscott947

Maggie'sVoice said:


> Nothing I'm saying is misinformation...
> 
> Natural Balance was done by diamond as if 2 years ago, so if that isn't the case now that has changed recently. The wellness is under well pet brand but diamond manufactures specifically wellness large breed adult formula not the whole line.
> 
> Canidae was the other food I couldn't remember that diamond also makes.
> 
> My info, I've been invited too and been to all of these manufactures production plants and R&D labs. Talked to most of the vets formulating all of these diets. These are Purina, Wellness (before it was well pet), Nutro, Iams/Eukanuba, Natura, Hills, Merrick and Diamond. This was from 2005 through 2017 and have been to some of them multiple times. I don't work for any pet related industry I work for PNC bank doing data migration and other work. I know someone that owns a 29 store pet dry goods retail chain (no animals) and was invited by then as I was out in contact to these food companies by him as I wanted to do as much research as possible.
> 
> There other info I posted was from studies done by universities independent of the food companies but we're from years ago and can't remember exactly which places did which at this point.
> 
> Take the info as you wish I'm only trying to help you but you can only lead a horse to water, not make them drink it.


Not to be condescending, but you never stated where your info came from concerning Kirkland recalls..I posted mine.....
Same can be said of those with selective reading.


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## Maggie'sVoice

jeffscott947 said:


> Not to be condescending, but you never stated where your info came from concerning Kirkland recalls..I posted mine.....
> Same can be said of those with selective reading.


I never said Kirkland I told you Kirkland is made by Diamond and diamond has been the most recalled manufacture of dog food since 2005. I added that all of the foods made by Diamond have also had recalls and that's not a coincidence. Kirkland's is not a food that I would trust based on who is making it. It's a private lable good made for Costco. It is the same for as professional dog food with a private label (Kirkland) with everything going on it's not a great idea that it's a food that had nothing behind it as in they leave it to another company to make it QC it and test it. Most people have no clue who makes most foods.


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## jeffscott947

Maggie'sVoice said:


> I never said Kirkland I told you Kirkland is made by Diamond and diamond has been the most recalled manufacture of dog food since 2005. I added that all of the foods made by Diamond have also had recalls and that's not a coincidence. Kirkland's is not a food that I would trust based on who is making it. It's a private lable good made for Costco. It is the same for as professional dog food with a private label (Kirkland) with everything going on it's not a great idea that it's a food that had nothing behind it as in they leave it to another company to make it QC it and test it. Most people have no clue who makes most foods.


That's called "guilt by association"! (attempted... :laugh


I re-posted the who makes what hoping that some people would realize just who they were buying from., and make better decisions.


Over twenty five years and 7 dogs..Mine lived happy lives (well over 10 yrs worth on avv) eating Kirkland Chicken and Rice. Lost an Ausssie last yr to mouth cancer, but her breeder had said it was genetics after being notified of her passing. (nothing to do with food) Also had a beagle that had CFH from birth..he lived to 12+, as well. My current Border Collie ate it as well until I tried Pure balance (NOT grain free), but she is switching back. She turned 14 in June.


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## Maggie'sVoice

jeffscott947 said:


> That's called "guilt by association"! (attempted... :laugh
> 
> 
> I re-posted the who makes what hoping that some people would realize just who they were buying from., and make better decisions.
> 
> 
> Over twenty five years and 7 dogs..Mine lived happy lives (well over 10 yrs worth on avv) eating Kirkland Chicken and Rice. Lost an Ausssie last yr to mouth cancer, but her breeder had said it was genetics after being notified of her passing. (nothing to do with food) Also had a beagle that had CFH from birth..he lived to 12+, as well. My current Border Collie ate it as well until I tried Pure balance (NOT grain free), but she is switching back. She turned 14 in June.


Not guilty by association, the Kirkland foods were recalled were from diamond plants. You're defensive and don't need to be if you're ok feeding that food then that's fine but it's putting your head in the sand is your think it's not related. 

But again it was just information for anyone that's doesn't know these things. If you're ok with Kirkland then that's fine. You mentioned to me that wouldn't feed thing for different reasons but you ignore other things. Just give info is all.

Anyway, cheers :wink2:


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## Megora

Sharing for fun...

When FDA released their report, naming brands, my biggest frustration was all of the blatant manipulating of the report to promote 5 of the bigger brands out there. This included making false statements of these few brands being "approved" by AAFCO (which has a statement on their website that they do NOT approve brands). This includes putting a huge emphasis on feeding trials - which could be as few as 8 dogs! I think puppies need to be fed the same food for 2 months in these trials and adults need to be fed the same food for about 5 months. You are not talking about trials lasting for years, which might be how long it takes for heart disease to develop. 

Based on what some people are saying, you would almost expect that you can go on AAFCO and find a list of approved foods (5 brands), and that's so misleading! 

Meanwhile, FDA pointed the finger at a list of brands which have minimally 10 complaints against them w/r to the DCM panic. 

That list was by brand name... not formula. 

I saw 2 brands which I feed my dogs on this list and was pulling my hair out in exasperation - particularly since I knew that the primary kibble I feed does not include the ingredients being called into question by FDA, nor is it grain free. Meanwhile the brands not included on the list and promoted heavily by the DCM communities ABSOLUTELY have EVERY SINGLE ONE of the so-called questionable ingredients in their GRAIN FREE FOODS! 

So when I located a previously released list of brands/formulas that FDA received a DCM related complaint on - I dug in. And was frustrated by how horribly messy the list was. Some of that was the fault of dog owners who in some cases didn't know what food they were feeding their dogs, did not provide accurate formula names, fed their dogs a wide variety of foods so they had no way of knowing what caused a problem, and in some cases were reporting a early death that they believed related to DCM although the dog had died and no testing done. 

The list was compiled in no particular order, which means you couldn't just go to a "section" to see the related data (number of complaints) associated with specific brands or formulas.

Frustrated - I spent HOURS typing the list into excel which could then be sorted to produce a clearer picture of which formulas were as fault. Mind, I was not double checking names and typed names as posted on FDA. But it made for a clearer pi! !

Anyway, I'm practical enough + old enough (have seen enough typical behavior of people, have felt it myself - go ahead, ask my opinion of flu shots!), that I do not think FDA is anywhere close enough to be releasing results of any study. 

The complaint list by FDA included a large number of other breeds - many who WERE predisposed to DCM. Breeds like great danes and german shepherds. 

The golden retriever related complaints - the concerning thing is without testing of the dogs in question and comparing to healthy dogs eating the same foods... it's unclear whether you have genetics causing problems. The grain free market is pretty huge - and the sample of complaints is relatively small and all over the place. If the food formulas were causing problems, it would be more marked and obvious, similar to Blue Buffalo's problems with toxic levels of vitamin D. The companies would be performing recalls - right now!

Other thing is the list of complaints do not include enough Pro Plan, just to name one big name that should be affected. As I said above, when everyone was switching their dogs to grain free diets or limited ingredient diets, Pro Plan jumped on the band wagon and created grain free varieties of kibble. These are kibbles which have the same properties as the other brands, which suggests that either the suspect ingredients are just red-herrings and there's something else going on, including where ingredients are being sourced from, or... perhaps people who feed Pro Plan foods have a false sense of security and are not testing their dogs. Who knows.


ETA - by the way. If I were feeding my dogs Zignature Kangaroo or Acana Singles (any), I would be switching right now. It also goes without saying - I would NOT be feeding any Diamond brand foods! 

A breeder friend who is very skeptical about the DCM mess (and when you have that many self-proclaimed cooks in the kitchen as you do on the Taurine groups on facebook - it is a mess!) - she used to feed TOTW to all her dogs. She stopped feeding it and switched to a different brand completely because her gut feeling is something is wrong with the food. The dogs were not eating it, it looked different, etc. 

I experienced something similar to Nutrisource which I'd fed happily for a year or two before they supposedly just changed the packaging... but something else was different with the food. The dogs weren't crazy about it. Their coats looked dull while eating the food. And this was why I switched back to what I had fed my dogs successfully. 

People need to get over being completely LOYAL to any food, and this even includes Pro Plan, Royal Canin, and the others which are getting pushed heavily and you have people switching to the foods and determined to be happy with the results. Which some of the results are good! (because grain free isn't that great for coats and muscle to begin with!!!!!!! Of course switching to a regular food will be a huge boost!!!!). Other times, you have dogs developing GI issues, skin issues, and other health problems that they didn't have before. And like it or not, some problems are related to food.


----------



## Megora

Oh - one more sort.

This is just golden related complaints (vs all breeds).

Also - just a summary of all breeds. It was interesting to see what came up. 

Many of the mixed breeds were pit bull type mixes, which I thought was interesting.


----------



## LynneL

Coincidentally, I just logged on to the forum to ask for some feedback on dog food, and this thread was the first thing that popped up. 

I have to say, my head is spinning a little from all this discussion. But I am going to add a question and hope that some of you will chime in with some perspective for me...

My 1 year old male golden was on Pro Plan Sport 30/20 formula (chicken) since he was a small puppy. It is what my breeder feeds all her dogs, and Leo enthusiastically ate every meal with no issues ever since the day we brought him home. About 3 weeks ago, he started turning up his nose at meal times - would "pick" at his kibble, drop some outside the bowl, eat some, leave some, etc. I was just about out of the chicken formula, so I decided to pick up a bag of Salmon & Rice formula (still Pro Plan 30/20 Sport), to see if something a little different would spark his appetite a little. I started out by mixing a little of the salmon in with the chicken. He was still being picky, but would eventually eat it. When the chicken ran out, it was 100% salmon. He hates it. Won't eat it at all. Not wanting to invest in another bag of the Pro Plan Chicken just yet, I purchased a small (6 pound) bag of Hill's Science Diet - Perfect Weight Adult food (chicken). Leo LOVES it - can't wait for meals once again. He has been eating it for about 4 days now, with no other food. 

The ingredient list looks great to me - lots of good, healthy components; no weird or harmful preservatives, etc. However, I've noticed that Leo is having a lot more bowel movements than he was when eating the Pro Plan. I'm not opposed to switching him over to Science Diet, as the quality and cost are comparable to Pro Plan. I'm wondering if the increased bathroom breaks could indicate that his body is not absorbing the nutrition (yesterday he went #2 four times - on his previous food he would go once or twice per day)? The feeding chart on the bag recommends 4 &2/3 cups of food for his size. But I only give him 3 cups per day (1.5 cups morning and dinner). 

For the record, Leo is a 66 pound, 1 year old, intact male.

Does anyone have experience with Science Diet? Thoughts about this brand???


----------



## daisy1234

Julie Timmons said:


> Are you asking me if I read about Fromm??? that's why I posted the link... I'm not really sure what your point was.


I had to step away from this post as it was getting a bit tit for tat for me. I was asking if you read each case as if you did you would see how some are so vague and there is not really a valid point to blame a certain food. I think we just need to all take a breather and watch and see. There is so much info out there, he said she said, this is bad this is not. The bottom line is the FDA states.

Though the FDA said it is not yet known how certain diets may lead to heart disease in canines, it noted 90% of the foods identified in the reports were “grain-free,” meaning they did not contain soy, wheat, rice, barley or other grains, 93% contained peas or lentils and a “far smaller” portion contained potatoes or sweet potatoes. The FDA said there were no sources of protein, like chicken or lamb, that were predominant in the reported cases.

Here's a good read. 

https://justinshmalberg.com/blog/20...yv0qhmLxLbcDIqZdno8rVEUA-LmKqTITc653g6p8Wdkxk

I think for me I just don't like all the misinformation that is passed along.


----------



## jeffscott947

Maggie'sVoice said:


> Not guilty by association, the Kirkland foods were recalled were from diamond plants. You're defensive and don't need to be if you're ok feeding that food then that's fine but it's putting your head in the sand is your think it's not related.
> 
> But again it was just information for anyone that's doesn't know these things. If you're ok with Kirkland then that's fine. You mentioned to me that wouldn't feed thing for different reasons but you ignore other things. Just give info is all.
> 
> Anyway, cheers :wink2:



Are you sure you and I read the SAME Re-call report on KIRKLAND?


Kirkland foods were recalled 2 times since 2007, PERIOD ...once voluntarily in 2012 and once in 2007, during the Melamine thing! Doesn't matter which plant they came from TWO TIMES in 12 years!..


This is not about being defensive..it's about attempts to steer clear of facts that were presented here IN WRITING (screen grab, as well as attempts to sway people towards certain foods and CORN!)...Not my opinion!


BTW..Since you believe that corn is so good for dogs, I presume that you add some to your Holistic pet food diet:laugh:


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

jeffscott947 said:


> Are you sure you and I read the SAME Re-call report on KIRKLAND?
> 
> 
> Kirkland foods were recalled 2 times since 2007, PERIOD ...once voluntarily in 2012 and once in 2007, during the Melamine thing! Doesn't matter which plant they came from TWO TIMES in 12 years!..
> 
> 
> This is not about being defensive..it's about attempts to steer clear of facts that were presented here IN WRITING (screen grab, as well as attempts to sway people towards certain foods and CORN!)...Not my opinion!
> 
> 
> BTW..Since you believe that corn is so good for dogs, I presume that you add some to your Holistic pet food diet:laugh:



You still don't grasp what I said and I can't explain it any better about the Kirkland thing. I'm sorry but maybe someone else can. 



Another thing about "voluntary" recalls. The FDA allows companies to call it a voluntary to save face but in actuality, it is always a mandatory recall.The only time it's not voluntary is when a company refuses to do the recall and FDA forces them to, usually accompanied by a fine. 



I am not swaying ANYONE to any certain food and I am only educating you on the corn thing but again, can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink it. Corn isn't the issue as a grain for dogs, it's the wheat and the soy. Ahh it's like talking to a brick wall. Can't do it anymore.



About the snarky comment about the corn... I don't add it as you'd have to grind it down for it to be usable. At this point it's useless to try to explain anything to you as you are incapable of having an open mind and you can't comprehend what is being said to you. Try reading again what I tried to explain to you 2 or 3 times about Kirkland and Diamond. You're so hell bent on being defensive you can't grasp what I said. 



I'll try once more for the hell of it. The point is Diamond keeps making mistakes with the FOODS, PLURAL, that they've created recall issues for a lot of companies they make food for. So it's Kirkland 2 times, Natural Balance 2 or 3 times, Canidae a couple times and not to mention their own lines, Professional, Premium Edge, Taste of the Wild a coupe times and a couple others they own (not sure of recalls on those). The POINT is they have so many issues making food, you never when it may be the food your feeding.


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## Maggie'sVoice

LynneL said:


> Coincidentally, I just logged on to the forum to ask for some feedback on dog food, and this thread was the first thing that popped up.
> 
> I have to say, my head is spinning a little from all this discussion. But I am going to add a question and hope that some of you will chime in with some perspective for me...
> 
> My 1 year old male golden was on Pro Plan Sport 30/20 formula (chicken) since he was a small puppy. It is what my breeder feeds all her dogs, and Leo enthusiastically ate every meal with no issues ever since the day we brought him home. About 3 weeks ago, he started turning up his nose at meal times - would "pick" at his kibble, drop some outside the bowl, eat some, leave some, etc. I was just about out of the chicken formula, so I decided to pick up a bag of Salmon & Rice formula (still Pro Plan 30/20 Sport), to see if something a little different would spark his appetite a little. I started out by mixing a little of the salmon in with the chicken. He was still being picky, but would eventually eat it. When the chicken ran out, it was 100% salmon. He hates it. Won't eat it at all. Not wanting to invest in another bag of the Pro Plan Chicken just yet, I purchased a small (6 pound) bag of Hill's Science Diet - Perfect Weight Adult food (chicken). Leo LOVES it - can't wait for meals once again. He has been eating it for about 4 days now, with no other food.
> 
> The ingredient list looks great to me - lots of good, healthy components; no weird or harmful preservatives, etc. However, I've noticed that Leo is having a lot more bowel movements than he was when eating the Pro Plan. I'm not opposed to switching him over to Science Diet, as the quality and cost are comparable to Pro Plan. I'm wondering if the increased bathroom breaks could indicate that his body is not absorbing the nutrition (yesterday he went #2 four times - on his previous food he would go once or twice per day)? The feeding chart on the bag recommends 4 &2/3 cups of food for his size. But I only give him 3 cups per day (1.5 cups morning and dinner).
> 
> For the record, Leo is a 66 pound, 1 year old, intact male.
> 
> Does anyone have experience with Science Diet? Thoughts about this brand???



Are you feeding him too much? at once year old he is probably not needing as much of the food anymore as he's barely growing at this point and thinking he needs more food to fill in so to speak, that's wrong thinking. You can't force mature weight on him, it will just happen. 3-/20 is A LOT of excess for a dog like a puppy as that's a food for a working dog in the field for 3-6 hours a day. Not at all what a puppy will be doing. So with his growth slowing down considerably at this point I would feed him less and actually if he's not an athlete or working dog, I would move him to a regular Adult or large breed adult formula.


If he misses more then say 3 MAYBE 4 meals in a week I would likely have him checked out by your vet. Some dogs will regulate their feeding based on if they need it or not and missing a meal here or there is fine but also never 2 3 or 4 meals in a row, that's a red flag that something is up for sure.


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## jeffscott947

You already know what I think of your "facts" so why bother to try one more time. I am not trying to direct anyone towards or away from a particular food.. Again..I don't feed Diamond or any other brand that they make, except Kirkland which has had 2 recalls in 12 yrs. and extremely positive results for me (over 20yrs worth)



I think there enough people that read this stuff to make up their own minds about who manufactures what and what, if any detrimental impact it has on their dogs.


Surely their is a reason that CORN is not included by the manufacturer of your Holistic food?
Plz don't bother answering.....This has become tiresome, and no longer entertaining.


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## gdgli

Just a reminder, please be respectful. Apparently a discussion of dog foods can become quite heated (Believe me, I am surprised.). Maybe take a moment to think about what you will post before you post it. Take a time out.


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## Maggie'sVoice

gdgli said:


> Just a reminder, please be respectful. Apparently a discussion of dog foods can become quite heated (Believe me, I am surprised.). Maybe take a moment to think about what you will post before you post it. Take a time out.


Bravo :wink2:


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## anguilla1980

I fed my current golden on Orijen since 8 weeks, then switched to Taste of the Wild when he was 2 1/2 due to availability. Then he was on a generic brand for 2 years. As of 2 months ago, I have him on Acana. Being that he is 6 now I just didn't think he needed the higher levels of protein in Orijen vs Acana.

I does alarm me that Acana is rated highest in that FDA report, but in the end, it was only in 0.1%. Plus as mentioned, they included breeds predisposed to the condition. My dog seem to do well on it and I have no intention of changing due to a 0.1% rate.


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## Megora

anguilla1980 said:


> I fed my current golden on Orijen since 8 weeks, then switched to Taste of the Wild when he was 2 1/2 due to availability. Then he was on a generic brand for 2 years. As of 2 months ago, I have him on Acana. Being that he is 6 now I just didn't think he needed the higher levels of protein in Orijen vs Acana.
> 
> I does alarm me that Acana is rated highest in that FDA report, but in the end, it was only in 0.1%. Plus as mentioned, they included breeds predisposed to the condition. My dog seem to do well on it and I have no intention of changing due to a 0.1% rate.


For goldens, the highest number of complaints involved Acana.

What I saw when I keypunched the list was there were a lot of dogs having problems with the Acana singles - and it was all of them. 

Gut feeling is I would feel very uncomfortable keeping my dog on Acana. 

Where I differ from other people is I do not think you have to switch to Pro Plan or a Science Diet (God forbid). But I would probably switch to something else or do yearly heart checks at a cardiologist UNTIL people get a clear explanation from FDA. Which as I said previously, with the flood of junk information that they are handling, I doubt they are even close.


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## jeffscott947

Megora said:


> For goldens, the highest number of complaints involved Acana.
> 
> What I saw when I keypunched the list was there were a lot of dogs having problems with the Acana singles - and it was all of them.
> 
> Gut feeling is I would feel very uncomfortable keeping my dog on Acana.
> 
> Where I differ from other people is I do not think you have to switch to Pro Plan or a Science Diet (God forbid). But I would probably switch to something else or do yearly heart checks at a cardiologist UNTIL people get a clear explanation from FDA. Which as I said previously, with the flood of junk information that they are handling, I doubt they are even close.



Nice to see a voice of reason here (as in reality!)..TY!:smile2:


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## Maggie'sVoice

Megora said:


> For goldens, the highest number of complaints involved Acana.
> 
> What I saw when I keypunched the list was there were a lot of dogs having problems with the Acana singles - and it was all of them.
> 
> Gut feeling is I would feel very uncomfortable keeping my dog on Acana.
> 
> Where I differ from other people is I do not think you have to switch to Pro Plan or a Science Diet (God forbid). But I would probably switch to something else or do yearly heart checks at a cardiologist UNTIL people get a clear explanation from FDA. Which as I said previously, with the flood of junk information that they are handling, I doubt they are even close.


What I've been saying all asking Kate. If you have to be on a questionable diet for specific reasons (allergies, diabetic etc) then do what your have to for your dog but just get tested every 6 months or maybe yearly. 

I agree with the Arcana... It's the worst offender for goldens and I would certainly not feed that to my dog. Just way too much of a risk.


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## debbie624

Megora said:


> Sharing for fun...
> 
> When FDA released their report, naming brands, my biggest frustration was all of the blatant manipulating of the report to promote 5 of the bigger brands out there. This included making false statements of these few brands being "approved" by AAFCO (which has a statement on their website that they do NOT approve brands). This includes putting a huge emphasis on feeding trials - which could be as few as 8 dogs! I think puppies need to be fed the same food for 2 months in these trials and adults need to be fed the same food for about 5 months. You are not talking about trials lasting for years, which might be how long it takes for heart disease to develop.
> 
> Based on what some people are saying, you would almost expect that you can go on AAFCO and find a list of approved foods (5 brands), and that's so misleading!
> 
> Meanwhile, FDA pointed the finger at a list of brands which have minimally 10 complaints against them w/r to the DCM panic.
> 
> That list was by brand name... not formula.
> 
> I saw 2 brands which I feed my dogs on this list and was pulling my hair out in exasperation - particularly since I knew that the primary kibble I feed does not include the ingredients being called into question by FDA, nor is it grain free. Meanwhile the brands not included on the list and promoted heavily by the DCM communities ABSOLUTELY have EVERY SINGLE ONE of the so-called questionable ingredients in their GRAIN FREE FOODS!
> 
> So when I located a previously released list of brands/formulas that FDA received a DCM related complaint on - I dug in. And was frustrated by how horribly messy the list was. Some of that was the fault of dog owners who in some cases didn't know what food they were feeding their dogs, did not provide accurate formula names, fed their dogs a wide variety of foods so they had no way of knowing what caused a problem, and in some cases were reporting a early death that they believed related to DCM although the dog had died and no testing done.
> 
> The list was compiled in no particular order, which means you couldn't just go to a "section" to see the related data (number of complaints) associated with specific brands or formulas.
> 
> Frustrated - I spent HOURS typing the list into excel which could then be sorted to produce a clearer picture of which formulas were as fault. Mind, I was not double checking names and typed names as posted on FDA. But it made for a clearer pi! !
> 
> Anyway, I'm practical enough + old enough (have seen enough typical behavior of people, have felt it myself - go ahead, ask my opinion of flu shots!), that I do not think FDA is anywhere close enough to be releasing results of any study.
> 
> The complaint list by FDA included a large number of other breeds - many who WERE predisposed to DCM. Breeds like great danes and german shepherds.
> 
> The golden retriever related complaints - the concerning thing is without testing of the dogs in question and comparing to healthy dogs eating the same foods... it's unclear whether you have genetics causing problems. The grain free market is pretty huge - and the sample of complaints is relatively small and all over the place. If the food formulas were causing problems, it would be more marked and obvious, similar to Blue Buffalo's problems with toxic levels of vitamin D. The companies would be performing recalls - right now!
> 
> Other thing is the list of complaints do not include enough Pro Plan, just to name one big name that should be affected. As I said above, when everyone was switching their dogs to grain free diets or limited ingredient diets, Pro Plan jumped on the band wagon and created grain free varieties of kibble. These are kibbles which have the same properties as the other brands, which suggests that either the suspect ingredients are just red-herrings and there's something else going on, including where ingredients are being sourced from, or... perhaps people who feed Pro Plan foods have a false sense of security and are not testing their dogs. Who knows.
> 
> 
> ETA - by the way. If I were feeding my dogs Zignature Kangaroo or Acana Singles (any), I would be switching right now. It also goes without saying - I would NOT be feeding any Diamond brand foods!
> 
> A breeder friend who is very skeptical about the DCM mess (and when you have that many self-proclaimed cooks in the kitchen as you do on the Taurine groups on facebook - it is a mess!) - she used to feed TOTW to all her dogs. She stopped feeding it and switched to a different brand completely because her gut feeling is something is wrong with the food. The dogs were not eating it, it looked different, etc.
> 
> I experienced something similar to Nutrisource which I'd fed happily for a year or two before they supposedly just changed the packaging... but something else was different with the food. The dogs weren't crazy about it. Their coats looked dull while eating the food. And this was why I switched back to what I had fed my dogs successfully.
> 
> People need to get over being completely LOYAL to any food, and this even includes Pro Plan, Royal Canin, and the others which are getting pushed heavily and you have people switching to the foods and determined to be happy with the results. Which some of the results are good! (because grain free isn't that great for coats and muscle to begin with!!!!!!! Of course switching to a regular food will be a huge boost!!!!). Other times, you have dogs developing GI issues, skin issues, and other health problems that they didn't have before. And like it or not, some problems are related to food.


Thank You Kate for saying this. I too find it incredibly frustrating that Purina Proplan is a recommended food from the researchers and I see so many people talking about this on the closed FB group yet it contains several pea ingredients in their grain free lines which is contradictory to what they are finding to be the suspect ingredients. I don't know who to trust. I fed Callie the boutique foods. I want to feed Coco what I believe to be a more quality food such as Farmina or Open Farm but am afraid to not trust what I am reading in the FB group or what some others are saying here. I never had a problem trusting my instincts about nutrition until all the DCM info was released and not knowing what happened to my Callie. I rotated her food brands which included Fromm and Zignature and others and one of which was Instinct raw. My gut tells me it wasn't DCM. WIth Coco, I am feeding PPP for the time being. I need to trust my gut and my gut tells me to feed something along the lines of Farmina or Open Farm and make sure there aren't any of the suspect ingredients. And I will likely take her to a cardiologist to make sure no signs of DCM throughout her life. What you say is interesting regarding how the info is presented and may be presenting an inaccurate picture. Thanks for sharing your spreadsheet.


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## GoldenDude

It's all very confusing. For reasons, I'm sticking with Eukanuba.


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## Megora

debbie624 said:


> Thank You Kate for saying this. I too find it incredibly frustrating that Purina Proplan is a recommended food from the researchers and I see so many people talking about this on the closed FB group yet it contains several pea ingredients in their grain free lines which is contradictory to what they are finding to be the suspect ingredients...


You basically will not see common sense posted on those fb groups. 

Whenever you do have anyone asking practical questions, the moderators freeze their accounts (so they can't respond) and permit people to pile on. It was one of the reasons I was so disgusted about those groups. That and the fact that they were doing essentially what they accused that dentist guy of doing. It was a lot of random people analyzing ingredients based on rumors and assumptions.


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## Maggie'sVoice

I still say the same thing feed what you feel is appropriate based on the current info as it's being released. Not everyone will interpret the info exactly the same until there's a definitive answer to it all. But realize this is very very fluid information. They are even telling you they still don't know exactly what the real cause is, only the common denominators in affected and non affected dogs are.

I think if nothing becomes definitive, you might see some food manufacturers like Purina and Eukanuba going back to previous formulas from decades back to when this wasn't an issue
If you feed a food and want to be certain, have them tested everything 6-12 months. I think no matter what you feed, there is going to be some trepidation as to whether it's safe from the DCM issue.

The food I feed I'm confident in but I will do yearly hear exams until 4 or 5 and then probably every 6 months after that, at least until there is a definitive answer as to want is causing this and how to avoid it (which could be never)


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## hotel4dogs

Or, perhaps, you could just stick with whatever people have been feeding for years and years with lots of success rather than jumping on boutique/fad/new diets.
Just sayin'


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## Maggie'sVoice

hotel4dogs said:


> Or, perhaps, you could just stick with whatever people have been feeding for years and years with lots of success rather than jumping on boutique/fad/new diets.
> Just sayin'


And there are other brands or there that aren't boutique foods that so fine as well. There are more then 2 or 3 brands that are ok to feed. Chicken or beef based with fruits and veggies with brown rice and barley, things like this. You don't have to feed a 60-70% carb diet with a ton of wheat and soy.


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## debbie624

Maggie'sVoice said:


> I still say the same thing feed what you feel is appropriate based on the current info as it's being released. Not everyone will interpret the info exactly the same until there's a definitive answer to it all. But realize this is very very fluid information. They are even telling you they still don't know exactly what the real cause is, only the common denominators in affected and non affected dogs are.
> 
> I think if nothing becomes definitive, you might see some food manufacturers like Purina and Eukanuba going back to previous formulas from decades back to when this wasn't an issue
> If you feed a food and want to be certain, have them tested everything 6-12 months. I think no matter what you feed, there is going to be some trepidation as to whether it's safe from the DCM issue.
> 
> The food I feed I'm confident in but I will do yearly hear exams until 4 or 5 and then probably every 6 months after that, at least until there is a definitive answer as to want is causing this and how to avoid it (which could be never)


When you say you are testing every year, are you doing echocardiograms as these are the most accurate measurement tool for dx DCM. Or do you feel like doing the blood tests are sufficient? I havent decided yet regarding Coco if I will do the echo or blood tests as she gets older. So I'm curious what you are doing?


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## Maggie'sVoice

debbie624 said:


> When you say you are testing every year, are you doing echocardiograms as these are the most accurate measurement tool for dx DCM. Or do you feel like doing the blood tests are sufficient? I havent decided yet regarding Coco if I will do the echo or blood tests as she gets older. So I'm curious what you are doing?


That is up to the person individually. For me the blood test is a good place to start if you've changed foods. But seeing how there's been problems with NM DCM with normal levels of taurine, at $200 for an echo, I would just do the echo once a year or so. The blood test from UC Davis will run you about $100-$120 (whole blood or both whole blood and plasma test) so why not just do the echo. I personally would do the blood test after the echo picked to an issue and would test to see if and how bad a taurine deficiency was.

To me this isn't bad as I do titer testing every 3 years so the money I save in shots basically pays for doing the echo yearly. I guess it depends on the area cause I heard echos can cost up to $300 in certain areas.


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