# Aggressive Zoomies after exercise?



## Wicky (Aug 27, 2015)

Hi and welcome to the forum! 
It sounds like gus is getting over aroused. He might need more activities that tire him mentally rather than physically. In fact he may be over tired in some of the cases you mention. Do you have Gus in a good obedience class? If not that is the first place I would start. 
While you need to have a strategy of what to do/how to react when it happens the main thing is to look at ways of avoiding it happening and giving Gus the skills to be able to cope and think when over aroused. Check out the thread below - it’s a great resource. Too much activity and exercise may well be triggering him so you may need to adjust that. The pinning of the dog when he is over aroused it likely to make matters much worse in the long term. Do you have a lead that would allow to safely attach him to a solid object so you can step away from him when the behaviour starts? How solid is his down or sit position? At the moment when he is completely over aroused he is unlikely to be able to offer any behaviour you ask for but working through some obedience and self control games (I personally like the AbsoluteDogs Facebook page) will help him think in arousal and be able to offer the behaviour you want.

https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co...ver-arousal-biting-puppies-support-group.html

Good luck and keep us updates!


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## brownerin513 (Sep 8, 2018)

Our penny is 5.5 months old and does the SAME thing. It’s always when she’s been exercised a LOT and should be completely worn out. The way I look at it is she has just been completely overstimulated and has no idea what to do with herself. I know it’s hard to walk away, but I like the idea of a long lead that will keep your pup safe so you can walk away. We have a fenced in yard, and I will literally walk inside and shut the door (always keeping an eye on her through the door) and when she is done with her little fit, I will walk outside and we will work on some of her tricks for 10-15 mins. I find this helps her get out of that state and move on to something else while being able to use her mind. Just know you’re definitely not alone! It’s so frustrating!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Zoomies can also come from stress and the truth is you may not know what stresses the dog.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Keep in mind that 'pinning' your dog runs a high risk of someone getting bit, or of injury to your dog. And no it is not 'working' to prevent the behavior if you have to do it time and again. Dogs that are over exercised, over tired physically but mentally under stimulated simply become stronger dogs, not better behaved dogs.

As was mentioned, mental stimulation - rehearsing and rewarding basic skills, teaching new tricks , slow leash walks with lots of time to stop and sniff, perhaps some back yard agility or find it games (throw some kibble out in the yard, let him go sniff it out). Teaching self control - wait, stay, leave it, take it, go to your mat, to 'settle' on cue. Can all help to work the brain, calm a dog down.
Dogs are not born with self control (patience) but they can learn it.


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## Gleepers (Apr 20, 2016)

My Penny is nearly 2 1/2. She has been the same way. I’m happy to report that it has gotten way better. Not 100% but she is a good dog to live with most of the time. (Still have a few self control issues we are working on)
The main thing that worked for me was when she started to loose control is I immediately put her in training mode. Kept a good novel kibble in my pocket at all times. We would spend 5-10 min doing drills. Sit, down, heal, stay, come, touch, shake. Nothing new, just review until she could get herself under control. 9 times out of ten it works great. 

Sometimes it’s not me that she goes cookoo over stimulated on but our little dog. Mostly when they are playing in the yard. Here we set up a “safe” zone. No eating each other on the porch. Took several weeks of close monitoring to set it up but they both are now pretty good at knowing that they have to back off and no teeth on the concrete.


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## thegusbus (Sep 12, 2018)

Thanks for all the feedback ! 

I hear what everyone is saying about redirecting them to obedience behavior...that’s already been an approach we have tried. I’ll ask him to sit, and he does for 2 seconds and then jumps back up again biting and clawing us down. It doesn’t seem possible for him to control himself enough to listen or to snap himself out of it. Otherwise, his sit and down command is rather solid when we are in our home or on leash within the world with distractions.

The only way i can describe this behavior is that he is like a bull seeing red that disassociates—eyes glazed over—until it passes. It only happens when we are outside, when we have no protection of walking inside, walking into another room and closing the door. It only happens when we are far from all of that. it has only ever passed because we hold him down to the ground. I know that holding him isn’t the best approach. Believe me I know. But very literally, I don’t know how else to get him to stop from hurting us. I mean bruises on our arms, broken skin, gashes. We cannot walk away, he doesn’t let us. Holding him down through this tantrum is the only way to protect ourselves from actually getting hurt because again, he isn’t biting down or snapping...he is mouthing which hurts. 

I read some feedback about a long lead. While that’s has been another suggestion, let me explain why it doesn’t work ? ...so the times these aggressive zoomies start is when he is playing fetch...which means he cannot be on a long lead while running a football size length field to get the ball. When I bring a lead with me and he has the zoomies, he then plays aggressive tug of war with it....



I read some suggestions about bringing a pocket full of treats to get his attention...i WISH this worked for him...he actually isn’t food motivated. Even during obedience school, the trainers and us would laugh about a dog caring as little as he does about food. He often skips meals for a day or eats one big meal at night (he is medically fine. it’s just who he is). He is motivated by play. So during training. he would be rewarded with attention/ praise and a toy...the *only* treat that will get his attention is a pigs ear....i mean should i carry one with me every time we go out to play incase it happens ? But then, if he is beginning to get the zoomies...isn’t that confusing training ? I am rewarding this behavior with a high value treat ? 

Lastly, some feedback said more mental stimulation...I feel like the activities he does while exercising is high mental stimulation as well as physical. While retrieving, he has to search for the ball because it is thrown far. He needs to tap into those instincts, nose to ground going in zigzags to cover as much ground as possible without missing it. It gets lost in leaves, or bushes, etc and he has to search. When we throw it into the water (we live on a Channel) he needs to keep his eye on the spot it was thrown too. He needs to swim and carry it simultaneously. He listens to the commands “go” and “drop it”...he drops his ball and retrieves sticks and rocks his finds, he watches the deer and ducks and swans we see each and every time. There is PLENTY of mental stimulation. 

We have tried as much positive training as we can: redirecting behavior to obedience training- sitting and staying, having treats to reward redirection, bringing a lead with us, walking away if we can (which 99% of the time we cannot. we are in an open field. 

What we have been doing is putting a buzz collar on (not a shock) and using it when it appears his behavior is going into a zoomie. 

i’m glad we aren’t alone, but it feels like most of the suggestions we get are either inapplicable to what we can do because of when they occur, or feedback we have already tried ! ? 

BUT - the positive is that he is truly a good boy. Sweet, affectionate, smart, not food aggressive even with high value treats, super friendly with people and dogs, not destructive to anything ever, house broken at 3 months, crate trained and walks right in when we ask, loyal as HELL, comes when he is called, would never run away and won’t let us out of his sight. He is a great boy. except for these AWFUL zoomies hat happen a few times a month !


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

Is there a dog behaviorist anywhere near you? Maybe your vet could help you find one.


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## GoldeninCT (Aug 10, 2016)

Hi 

Jarvis is almost 1 year 8 months and still gets the zoomies usually right before he poops or after a long walk. The two things that get him to stop is a wooden logic puzzle that we put treats in and he has to figure out how to get it out or a frozen kong that usually still takes him an hour to finish and he sleeps after.


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## Gleepers (Apr 20, 2016)

Someone posted this link to me last year when I was ready to strangle a dog or two. 
Can’t say I followed all the way through with it but thought it was excellent
https://www.boulderhumane.org/sites/default/files/ProtocolforRelaxation.pdf


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

gdgli said:


> Zoomies can also come from stress and the truth is you may not know what stresses the dog.



Yeeeeep, came here to say this. It's a lot more obvious these days, and I wish we had seen it when he was younger. The only time kiddo gets the zooms is when he's way anxious/stressed. Some dogs compulsively move to try to discharge those bad feelings. I guarantee you, there is _some_ level of stress going on here, even if it's as simple as frustration intolerance/being overtired/etc. Additionally, while I realize that plenty of dogs aren't food motivated, in situations where there are other signs of stress, I do wonder if it's stress based food refusal. Also important to remember that stress doesn't have to mean "omg I'm dying of stress". Stress is just general over-arousal. 

Reading your post about what you've tried, I would think there is a stress/anxiety component here, OR potentially clinical hyperactivity, OR he needs a lot more more mental stimulation, OR potentially all three. 

RE: mental stimulation, I hear you when you say he's getting a lot of mental stimulation, but honestly, those are all pretty instinctual behaviors for a Golden Retriever. He may be having a good time and that's great but I'm not sure that he's getting the truly challenging "think yourself into a good long nap" mental stimulation that comes from extensive puzzles, tracking, obedience sports, etc. I _totally_ think that what you're doing is above and beyond what an average dog would need to be tired out at the end of the day, but unfortunately not all of us have average dogs  

Ultimately I think you should see an accredited behaviorist (big emphasis on accredited/certified!!!) because an adult, fully grown dog exhibiting these behaviors _is_ dangerous, even if he's not meaning to hurt you. 

In the mean time, I would:
- Halve your physical activity and double your mental activity. Couple reasons... activity begets activity, for one. Additionally, there could very well be an overtiredness component here. Mental stimulation will "wear" him out without physically exhausting his body. 

- Slow down the physical activity that you do. Maybe take a break from the aerobic exercise and do some hikes with some real deliberate movement and hills and whatnot. Skip the dog park and go walk somewhere with some interesting smells. Don't give that adrenaline a chance to ramp up for awhile. Control the chemicals until he can control himself. If a type of play or exercise is sending him over threshold, that's not a play or exercise to be doing right now. You need him in his learning brain, and dogs do not learn when they are over threshold. 

- SMARTx50, with special attention to calm behaviors. SMARTx50 is a protocol developed by Kathy Sdao as an alternative to Nothing In Life Is Free. Mark (clicker, "yes!", etc.) and reward any behavior you like at least 50x a day. (Kathy Sdao?s SMART x 50 ? Another Way to Use 1,000 Treats | Dogs and Babies)
Dogs absolutely need boundaries, but they need a vocabulary of appropriate behaviors to give you and SMARTx50 will help teach your dog a robust vocabulary -- it captures the things you want to see in day to day life, not just obedience commands. 

- Look into Karen Overall's Protocol for Relaxation (https://www.boulderhumane.org/sites/default/files/ProtocolforRelaxation.pdf). I know it seems silly, but it will help with the self control. 

Finally, I'm not trying to make any extrapolations as to your training methods, because I understand that you are likely desperate to gain some control over him when he's doing this and I understand why you would resort to using your physical body to get that control, completely. But if you _have_ subscribed to dominance theory in your training practices so far, just a note that these practices are not supported by veterinarians or accredited animal behaviorists. If that's a methodology you've been using in your training so far, it's very likely you've got a communication breakdown happening with Gus and it could be beneficial to start back at square one with something a little more proven (clicker training, for instance). Not trying to imply that you've harmed your dog or anything extreme, it just might not be supplying the foundation you need to get through to him during these times.


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

Stop the exercise before he gets into his wild zoomie mode - every time he's allowed to practice that behavior, the cycle keeps repeating over and over. As soon as you see some kind of telltale sign that he's about to lose it (for my dog, it was this look in his eye and his play style would change a smidge), leash him up and end it right there. Part of it is how young and immature he is, young dogs get excited/aroused so easily. The other part of it is that he's getting a lot of exercise all at once (vs split into multiple sessions), so he's getting tired and then he's continuing to run. Tired dogs are good dogs, but overtired dogs are big brats. Kinda similar to kids in a way. Tired kids are manageable kids, but kids who try and force themselves to stay up at night or who have had a long day start throwing fits about everything.

I have a dog that gets super over aroused by any kind of high energy personal play - he'll grab my shirt, bark at me, and jump on me a little too (he's 3 now, so he's a lot more toned down than he used to be!). I've been working on it on-and-off over the last couple months, and I've discovered that if I go from high energy to something low-key and calm right before he loses his every loving stuff, I can stop the "tantrum" before it starts. Then I can increase the energy again once he's cooled off, and then bring him back down before he gets too wild. A side effect of being unpredictable like that is that he's started to watch me more, so he's too busy to get all wound up.


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## Wicky (Aug 27, 2015)

It is probably time to find a behaviourist to help.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

'Lastly, some feedback said more mental stimulation...I feel like the activities he does while exercising is high mental stimulation as well as physical. While retrieving, he has to search for the ball because it is thrown far. He needs to tap into those instincts, nose to ground going in zigzags to cover as much ground as possible without missing it. It gets lost in leaves, or bushes, etc and he has to search. When we throw it into the water (we live on a Channel) he needs to keep his eye on the spot it was thrown too. He needs to swim and carry it simultaneously. He listens to the commands “go” and “drop it”...he drops his ball and retrieves sticks and rocks his finds, he watches the deer and ducks and swans we see each and every time. There is PLENTY of mental stimulation.' 

I understand what you are saying, but this type of 'hard' exercise drives up arousal levels, both physically and mentally, it is not 'calming' for the body or the mind. Mental exercises are geared towards both working the mind and slowing the body down, encouraging the dog to 'think', practice self control, learn to problem solve. 

Have you considered that your pup may simply need a 'day off' on occasion? That he may need time, just like we do, to 'slow down', relax and unwind? Even low level stress can accumulate build up in the body until it erupts in some shape or form. 

I have a 5 month old border collie pup, who would love to just go-go-go, and have found that too much activity simply winds him up, resulting in 'zoomies' and he has trouble settling down or even sleeping well at night. So every few days we have a 'slow day' which means physical exercise is kept low key, all of his meals are fed in food puzzle toys, and we pass the time simply engaging his brain, whether it means practicing known behaviors, or learning new skills, or simply time to relax and chew on a bone, and rest when he wants to. What that has done for him is to allow him to 'reset' his body and mind, to 'come down' - relax physically and mentally, from all the excitement/arousal from the previous days.


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

I think you've gotten some good advice so far. If I were you, I would read up on canine behavior and body language, so you can start figuring out what is triggering it (stress/anxiety/overstimulation/lack of mental stimulation/all of the above). Your dog IS trying to tell you something when he's doing that, and its your responsibility to figure out what it is. 

I think aesthetic's point about overstimulation is totally correct. Goldens are kind of like toddlers/little kids, especially at that age. You see a group of little kids running around/playing like maniacs and you know that pretty soon, someone is going to be crying . Your dog is at peak energy levels right now, it takes GRs until 2-3 (more likely 3 in a boy) to kind of mellow out. Almost fully grown physically, but not mentally. 

I couldn't get Piper tired from age 8 months -2 years. Even now, at 2.5, she doesn't know her limits, but I do. She is incredibly biddable and driven, and would retrieve a ball until she literally collapsed if given the opportunity. But I know her well enough to know when she's had enough. Its very subtle, but I know the "look" between energetic and getting tired Piper, and its not in her behavior (not laying down, stopping playing, etc), its in her _body language. _ She can't talk, so thats how she "tells me" she's tired. 

But physical activity is not the whole story. What would get my 1.5 year old dog really tired was physical activity + using her brain. 

And in terms of mental stimulation--what you are describing isn't really mental stimulation per se. Goldens are bred to retrieve, its basically in their nature. Piper did it from the day I got her, and her breeder didn't start it and she didn't even know why she was doing it. She loves watching things flying through the air, or sniffing them out if she doesn't see where they are. Fetch, drop, repeat. And Charlietree is absolutely right, it amps her up. 

Mental stimulation is something that your dog has to really use their noggin to puzzle through. Piper is interested in watching ducks/people/other dogs. She also watches TV (interestingly). But if I sat her in front of a TV all day, or all we did was go for a walk in the park and people watch, she would be bored. We can come home from playing in the park for an hour with her really panting, and she'll go chew a bone, or get a ball and start pushing it under the furniture, so she can figure out to to get it out, or bring me stuffies to play tug of war or retrieve. Some of this is diffusing her pent up/overstimulated self/calming herself down. Some of it is that she still needs something else to do. 

Invest in a kong wobbler (my dog LOVES), and puzzle toys. Hide treats for him to sniff out around the house. Play hide and seek. Teach him to play a shell game with treats. Your dog sounds smart, so teach him lots of new things--dogs love learning, and love pleasing us. Teach him the names of toys, and go bring you each one. To put them away. More complicated tricks, like rolling over, playing dead. Google 101 things to do with a box. Replace "come" and "stay" with red light/green light, and you will totally impress any kids in your life. I taught Piper to "show me" a trick of her choosing. Thats fun. 

Piper is more tired after playing mental games/scent games than with physical activity. Honestly. You'll survive stormy days and dog adolescence this way. 

When Piper was 8 months old and super hyper, she got a terrible case of kennel cough/pneumonia and was on complete activity restriction for a month. Two months later she got spayed and was again down for the count. At 2 years old she had a big surgery and was in a cone for 6 weeks and on activity restriction for essentially two months. She was pretty happy because she got enough non-activity mental stimulation. 

And finally, if your dog is going crazy, turn it into an immediate training session. If your dog will "sit" for 2 seconds when he's like this, thats AWESOME! He's with it enough to listen to you, its just that his attention span only lasts 2 seconds. So he needs to do obedience drills until he's calmed down. Rapid fire everything you dog knows that won't amp him up (Piper gets more excited by speaking, and pawing will sometimes make her want to jump if she's hyped up). So for 5-10 minutes, you become absolutely no non-sense in your tone and body language with sit, down, sit, up, on your side, sit, roll over, spin, stay, touch, watch, down, etc.


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## goldennotes (Nov 19, 2017)

I am currently working with my 7 month old golden who also gets overstimulated outside and will get zoomies then charges me and jumps & mouths, grabs leash, etc. We've made some really good progress in the last 4 weeks. And interestingly like you said, the zoomies are always outside. For the last few months, I haven't played fetch with my dog, because if I throw the ball, he will run to it, reach down to pick it up and then a light bulb goes off--he lifts his head, turns right towards me and CHARGE!! So, fetch is off limits for us right now (outside at least, he will fetch perfectly indoors). Easton (my male 7 mo. golden) has zoomies-- Most times, this happens at the end of our walk. I can definitely spot the signs beforehand that he's about to go zoom. It usually starts with pulling ahead on the leash, resulting in leash tension (then turning around to charge me). But I have also learned to identify the stressors that have caused things to build up. --frustration from not being able to greet dogs we pass, passing other dogs who are aggressively barking at him from a fence or leash, kids zooming by on bicycles, etc..... multiple evens like these build up in him--

Anyway, I've written down what I've been doing that seems to help us--maybe some of my rambling will help you. Since my dog likes food (but you'll see it still doesn't trump over arousal in my descriptions below), but when I refer to food, I would just substitute whatever your dog likes--maybe a particular ball? If he's not in zoomie mode, what is a sure attention getter?

I have been implementing the following things.

1. I am more aware of his arousal level and paying attention to things/patterns that I'm noticing in the environment. (I always walk with my treat bag and treat on our walks as he's food motivated). When he's in beginning stages of arousal, he takes his food a bit more harshly--sign to me that this is occurring. When the arousal ramps up even more, he'll take the food (almost out of habit) but drop it/spit it out. This lets me know that the arousal has taken over his brain and is more important than food to him (which is pretty big deal, because he's very food motivated). All this happens without any zoomies....but he's very close to his tipping point (and he is NOT in food mode).

2. Training mode can help dog get his arousal under control. Say my dog were jumping up, grabbing the leash, grabbing my arm, etc.... First, I would say "Ahhh Ahhh" my correction sound to let him know I don't like the behavior. (my dog wears regular neck collar and leash on walks), I would extend my arm holding the leash out/away from my body (to try to not allow contact with my body) and slightly lift upward and give the "Sit" command. I try to use the leash to keep my dog away from me (cuz' I don't want those bruises!!) and also use leash pressure along with my command to get him to sit. Sometimes, he'll do it right away, and sometimes, I have to try a more than once. But once he sits, I praise verbally and that positive reinforcement does help him switch gears. Then I almost always ask for a down. And have him stay in a down for a minute or two. I might walk around him etc (an exercise we do in our obedience class, so he knows what I'm doing). Almost always going through his familiar training exercises will calm his mind to sanity. If I release him and he goes to zoomies a few steps later, I know I released him too soon and we should have done some more exercises. (If I didn't have the leash on him and he were charging, mouthing me with zoomies- like in my backyard-- I would give sit command, but most likely without leash to help me in the midst of craziest zoomies, I would have to put up with some mouthing to help gently guide my dog to a sit.. I would do the verbal "ahhh ahhh" correction with the mouthing or resistance, and any moment of not mouthing and not resisting, and sitting to give praise--hoping to make that connection where the praise snaps the brain into a "okay, she wants to do that now; I can do that"). 

3. Since I have identified some things that I know cause stress in him..... I am working to desensitize him to these things. Like walking by a chain linked fence with 5 little yippers running along the fence saying "hamburger" to my boy. I have taken to directing my dog to pay attention to me (we have a "look at me" command--ala Zak George) before we approach the house, and reward w/ food, and I continue to repeat that as we walk past this house, whether the dogs are out or not. I want him to be able to walk past these dogs and pay them no mind. Previously, he would pull to go towards them, hit the end of the leash, and then charge me and jump and nip. Now, before he even approaches this house, he looks to me, and he does ignore those dogs. I just this same method with other things that I think could be stressors.

4. I have not idea if improvement in decreasing zoomies is related to this--but I started this, hoping it might help, but if not..it's still a good exercise. I've been playing tug with my dog and having him "give" immediately on command. Tug war, release on command, tug war, release on command. I was hoping this would help him to be able to find an on/off switch and also listen to command during a small bit of arousal.

Hopefully there is something here you might can use! I feel for you with the zoomies!! and easily aroused dogs!

Lisa


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## Chet’ Barker’ (Nov 8, 2020)

It has been years since you wrote this, but I am so glad that you did. I think your attunement to his arousal states and identification of stressors is such a valuable way of understanding zoomies and some of the challenging behaviors that can come at the end of a walk. Thanks so much


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