# High Arousal Dogs



## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Am wondering who here has a Golden that is very easily excited/overstimulated, and what you have done to manage that level of arousal. 

Also, did your dog ever grow out of it? And how much of this is created by us and how much genetic? His brother is the only littermate I know and he is very different.

Cosmo is an incredibly motivated dog but he also gets way overstimulated and quite frantic when excited. He is super intense. He is fine in the home and with us, and is ok when off leash but on leash or when under pressure his anxiety is quite high. He is never fearful so that's not an issue.

The closest comparable dog I have met is a police canine I know.

I'm working through Control Unleashed right now and we've been working on calming exercises everyday almost for a year with very limited success.

I don't consider it a behavioral problem per se so didn't post in that section.

Thoughts?


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## maggiesmommy (Feb 23, 2010)

Maggie was "diagnosed" as high arousal by the trainer I took her to for her resource guarding. We manage it by watching her pupils. When they get huge, we take her out of the situation and into a calmer, quieter one....anywhere...the vet's, going potty outside, walks, doggie beach, etc....just drop everything and go. She doesn't seem to be growing out of it, and I can't tell you much about her genetics. Wish I could be more help.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks! 


I should clarify that the two trainers we've seen simply see him as a great performance dog and aren't worried. He is a natural at tracking and agility. 

It's just that the intensity he brings to training is just always there - he's always "on".


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## willip (Oct 27, 2010)

Chester is very much that way... excellent and determind gun dog, tracker and flusher (and family pet too!) my daughter does agility with him too but a comlpete live wire and can go over the top sooo easly....if that makes sence.
We normally give him a really good run before we work with him...and I mean run. We either go to a beach or field and let him loose, obviously all in safe controlled places (we live on an island so we are lucky that this is an easy thing for us!). If hes getting over excitted when playing with other dogs we just call him into heel for a few mins and then let him play again...it normally does the trick.
To be honest I love this in him...I like to think it makes him good at what he does and so eager to learn even if I do have to constantly remind the kids NOT to over stimulate him in the house!


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

So we've been making little progress with Cosmo's high arousal states. He was better for a while after going to TNT Kennels for boarding (tired for a few days!) but he's worse now than ever. 

Today I came across this fabulous blog - OMG.. ANOTHER DOG.. LOOK LOOK!!!! | Success Just Clicks. Exactly understands what I mean: with the great while off leash but frustrated when on leash, and when she mentions that the clicker and high value food reward only make it worse. I wish she would have talked about why dogs are this way - I guess just genetics. I will have to look into more of her blog!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Is Cosmo from a field/performance line? He sounds very much like my Toby, who approaches everything with 1000% effort. I was told he needs a job. My hubby and I try to find challenges for him during the day, even if it's something as simple as asking him to go find the other one of us or to go get a certain toy and call it by name. He's over 7 years now and it's a daily challenge. He's approaching cataract surgery at the end of the month and the recovery requires a calm, tranquil dog with little movement of the head or barking. I am very worried about that so I've been stepping up the obedience inside the house, such as heeling beside me and not dancing as I go to prepare his food. While I prepare it he is in a sit/stay. I make him sit/stay while I place it down for him, then release him. We're working on the term "Quiet", which he is just now grasping, a miracle. 

There are certain situations though that nothing I can do will prevent the excitement and crazies--taking him swimming, chasing balls, doorbell rings and visitors, seeing squirrels, or encountering certain dogs on walks (mostly darker colored dogs) running or approaching him off leash. We'll try to minimize these situations during the six week recovery. Plus his ophthalmologist is helping us with a pain reliever that also sedates the dog a tiny bit. I feel terrible about the drug help, but know we need all the help we can get. As soon as he is recovered we will embrace his zest for life with renewed appreciation.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I have raised two intense dogs,my Topbrass pup and Finn. Two hour hikes right at sunrise seven days a week really helps, as does channeling and using the intensity for games/bumpers, rally and competitive obedience so that the minds get tired too. All our dogs know the "relax" command for take it down ten notches. It gets learned in the puppy months bc you go in your crate if you are being a busy bee after exercise/ playing/food and the other dogs are sleeping but you are marauding. . . 

When the intensity first starts building, you have to find a way not to let Cosmo "practice" getting worked up. First, he needs appropriate outlets when you want him to be high drive and you celebrate it and use it. 

Then, he needs to to learn the "relax" command. If he were mine, I'd stand and ignore him until he finally calmed down, even if it took sixty minutes the first time. I'd reward him when he gave up and chilled out, and refuse to move one step with a whooped up dog. Dogs do what they practice. It takes a ton of time to change a habit, but it can be done with the puzzle pieces coming together right. Once you can get a few steps, quit and go home. The next day you will get a few more. When you hate the behavior you are getting, stop mmoving forward or rewarding Cosmo in any way environmentally( like if he wants to go somewhere and pulls and gains a step in that direction). 

We have a boarding dog who is a Jack Russell, and high arousal to the max. It took me literally forty minutes to travel ten feet her first day. Now though, I can walk her through Freeport for an ice cream with a nice loose leash. It is hard to overemphasize the time and calm it takes to ignore the whoop and reward the calm when you are just standing like a tree for 20 minutes being neutral BUT once they learn you are not moving, the rest goes fast.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

Gosh, I miss RedDogs. Wish she were back for advice.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

You mean this *isn't* normal?!? I guess I just expected from my girls given their background! Ruby is the only dog I know that needs to run for an hour BEFORE we can run agility and Piper needs plenty of walking around practicing focus when we first go to shows. I don't really do anything special day to day, just lots of exercise (and prayers for maturity!).


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Dallas Gold said:


> Is Cosmo from a field/performance lines?


There are plenty of titles in his background but nothing particularly fieldy. You can see his pedigree in my signature.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

IowaGold said:


> You mean this *isn't* normal?!? I guess I just expected from my girls given their background! Ruby is the only dog I know that needs to run for an hour BEFORE we can run agility and Piper needs plenty of walking around practicing focus when we first go to shows. I don't really do anything special day to day, just lots of exercise (and prayers for maturity!).


How do you ever take them into public? Can anyone but you pet them? I just came inside from scaring some people in front of my building half to death as he approached them on two feet gagging himself.


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

Willow also needs a very long run before activities like training classes or agility. She can appear calm but as soon as I give her a command she can go into a frenzy of trying every trick she knows. Then launching into the zoomies or if on leash then she will bounce and yip reapeatedly. 

She is fine out walking with people and dogs but training sets her off. The only thing that seems to work is exercise.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Lisa_and_Willow. said:


> Willow also needs a very long run before activities like training classes or agility. She can appear calm but as soon as I give her a command she can go into a frenzy of trying every trick she knows. Then launching into the zoomies or if on leash then she will bounce and yip reapeatedly.
> 
> She is fine out walking with people and dogs but training sets her off. The only thing that seems to work is exercise.


This is just like Cosmo. Even if he's on a leash he gets zoomies as soon as he smells certain smells (like if we're getting close to home) or feels certain textures (like sand). His default sit is very good so I can snap him out of it pretty quickly. If I don't let him calm down for long enough he will do this every few feet.

One of the BIG issues is that we do not have a yard - we live in a condo. We do take him out for 2hrs at a time and let him have off leash time every day at parks and wherever we can manage. He lives to be off leash and run free. He's just not a dog that wants to walk on a leash, he's so frustrated by it. 

Somewhat ironically he was selected for us by the breeder because we wanted a calm therapy dog...

I'm looking into quitting my job and moving out of the city (an hour away) so we can buy something that has a yard for less than a million dollars. 

Question for you guys, I struggle understanding why Cosmo is like this when his littermate (I only am in touch with one) is super calm and has needed no training at all, ever. Are high arousal dogs created or born?


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

jackie_hubert said:


> How do you ever take them into public? Can anyone but you pet them? I just came inside from scaring some people in front of my building half to death as he approached them on two feet gagging himself.


Yes, I do take them out. Over and over and over. When they are young, there's a lot of holding the collar and forcing them into a sit (good thing they are only 50 and 60#!). At least very few people mistake their enthusiasm for aggression. I do try to get out amongst "dog people" frequently as I can tell them to ignore the dogs when they are acting like idiots to prevent them from reinforcing the bad behaviors. 

All I can say is it *does* get better as they get older and mature. One more reason I prefer bitches...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't have the patience to ignore a dog until he figures something out. If I want my dog to calm down and stop acting like a freak on caffeine, I will physically hold him in position (sit, down, etc) until he stops fighting me and relaxes into it. To this day I can have Flip crawl into my lap and immediately turn into a rag doll, because when he was a young pup everytime he started to act like a crazed idiot I would restrain him in my lap until he would relax. It's not unusual now to see me sitting on the floor at an obedience trial with Flip sitting in my lap, watching everything going on around him. He won't react to anything when we are like that.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

It's been a rough day. 

I've been working for an hour each day inside; getting him excited and then relaxing on command. But it's hard to get to the level of arousal that is so common outside. He's always been perfectly calm inside with us so it's not difficult to be successful inside. However, outside he just will not relax. I sat on the front steps with him for 45 minutes and he did not stop moving. He rolls around, sniffs things, whines, gets the zoomies or bites his leash - This is after 2 walks and a nap. 

Today I took him out after my husband had him out for 2 hours. I let him have a nap first. He was good for the fist half hour but for the rest of the walk he was so amped up
that he had zoomies every few steps and bounced up and down biting his leash. I took some video which I will upload later. It seems that his outbursts come right after being told not to do something. Telling him no, holding him still or being harsh only intensifies the effect.

I have raised multiple guide dogs who could calmly lie under a restaurant table for hours. I know it's not me. But I am at the end of my wits with this dog. I am also saddened that not once has anyone been able to pet him...once he hit 5 months of age.


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## KaMu (May 17, 2010)

Jackie Im so sorry your having such challenges with that sweet boy Cosmo. Have you tried as soon as he begins the undesirable behavior, turning right around and going back inside, removing the leash and sit down and relax with a magazine or something...basically showing him that that behavior gets him nowhere fast.. Over and over in again until you are able to take a relaxed walk of even just a few feet? I absolutely am not experienced in any of this but just a thought...


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I think finding a really good trainer you can mesh with would be wonderful for you.

I have one that is easily distracted and excited by new things. I have done a lot of different things to work on it. One exercise we have done in a group setting is walking around a group of people that are playing with toys. The dog is rewarded for eye contact and gets to play with you, but never any of the other handlers. It's also really good if your dog wants to charge forward to say 'hi' if you have the other person tell them 'no' and walk away--act as if they want nothing to do with such a rude dog. Only when the dog is calm can s/he receive a pet.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Any recommendations on whether we should stop doing tracking with him? While he is tracking he never acts up at all. He is super intense and amped up while he's tracking but would never think to bite at his leash, etc. I can't help but feel like it is amping him up for regular walks, etc. 

I've also stopped doing any clicker training because he's become so conditioned to turn on around the clicker that I feel it's contributing. The same goes for working with food. It doesn't matter how low value the food, if there's food involved he can NOT relax. It just took me 30 minutes to feed him breakfast - I swear he held his breath the entire 30 minutes.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Don't give up tracking--that is great for relieving his energy and for training!

And IMHO, if food is sending him over the top get rid of it.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I would like to offer my opinion but first a word about my dog. I have a two year old female out of a field trial type breeding. She never gets tired and is highly distractable. I must work her in the field a minimum of four days a week. If I don't, she becomes hyperkinetic. I will work her in the field for an hour before I go to obedience class and I find that this is pretty successful but she still gets the zoomies in class.

I think that a dog like this needs work in addition to exercise. My obedience trainer and my field mentor feel that she will calm down a little at some point in the future. In the meantime, she needs to get work and plenty of it. Work for her is retrieving. Also, I find that my greatest success in training any obedience is when I keep a sharp eye on her and I am aware of any indiscretions. I must be on my toes and be firm with my obedience. I feel that a dog like this must always have a command---sit-stay, down-stay, hey, hey happy bumper, OK.

I had a golden in the past that was like her. I did all of the above and experienced great success. My current female outdoes my former golden on the energy scale which really surprises me.

I hope my advice helps you a bit. Good luck with your dog.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

Have you tried putting a backpack on Cosmo during your walks? Lincoln is very high energy and, at one time, was very easily distracted. We figured he needed a job so bought a backpack and he wears it every time we go for a walk. He's a different dog when he's wearing it.....very focused and attentive.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Laurie said:


> Have you tried putting a backpack on Cosmo during your walks? Lincoln is very high energy and, at one time, was very easily distracted. We figured he needed a job so bought a backpack and he wears it every time we go for a walk. He's a different dog when he's wearing it.....very focused and attentive.


We did try but with the backpack touching him when he gets excited he redirects to his backpack and sometimes ends up spinning in circles trying to grab it. I'm willing to try it again though. Maybe I'll put more weight in it. 

We also tried having him carry something but he bounces around if he's got anything in his mouth.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

We did have a somewhat successful walk today. I kept it short so there would be opportunity to go home quickly if things got bad and so that if we were successful we could quickly go home and have only positive experiences. I only gave him about a foot of leash so that he couldn't go off smelling things or feeling the grass or sand under his feet (all of which can set him off). He wasn't happy but he also didn't get the zoomies or bite his leash. We even sat and watched an outdoor community event from a bench. He was chewing sticks the entire time but he didn't lunge at anyone or get too frantic, even when people were clapping and were sitting next to us on the bench.

We practiced calm at meal times again. I actually was lying on the ground with him until he finally laid down relaxed. I could actually feel him shaking, poor guy. But we will practice this more and more. 

The other thing that he's been doing for some time is run away when I bring out his collar or harness. We've been keeping them on him inside to desensitize him but he still doesn't like them and what they mean.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

If he's really, truly that hyperactive -- and you've been diligently working behavior mod protocols with him -- you might want to consider a vet behaviorist. He may need some pharmaceutical assistance to help him achieve a state of mind that's more conducive to learning.

I'd definitely do vet behaviorist, not just meds from your vet.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

I make him sound like a lunatic which he's not. He's just...a border collie in a Golden suit when we're out and ON leash. Off leash he's much better.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Ok here's a video of a perfect example: 




Once excited he might do this every few feet and it can be much more jumping and pulling at the leash.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

I watched the video. Do you have other video that shows him being worse, because to be honest, that just looked like a young dog happy to be getting out. He didn't appear to be highly aroused to me.

One thing I did notice in the video is that you use a front clip harness with him. Have you ever thought of trying a Gentle Leader or maybe a prong collar? I use a prong on my young dogs (and even the middle one in highly exciting locations like PetSmart or Bass Pro) and it really helps them keep their minds. I don't want to highjack this thread into a discussion about the right or wrong of prong collars, but if you haven't tried other "control" equipment, maybe it's a place to start?


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## KaMu (May 17, 2010)

I watched the video to and thought he looked fine, puppy like. My first thought was......Maybe hes biting at the leash because he feels it keeps knocking him on the leg...not that that hurts or anything but maybe he finds it an annoyance. The only other thing I could think of is maybe he wants to carry something in his mouth. Hes a lot calmer than Roxy looking t that video!


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback! 
That's about a 1/5 on how bad it gets. I can pretty easily calm in in the building. When we are outside he will get the zoomies while trying to jump at the leash in my hands and ends up spinning around me. And he can do this literally every 10 feet for half an hour. 
I'm still hopeful that it's just teenager behavior that will get better over time.
The harness tends to be best. A backclip would be even better but that's how his tracking harness worst and he pulls like a freight train on such a harness, but I could work on that and try him on his car harness. Because he is set off by being restricted the head halti and neck collars are worst.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

Jackie, I think I remember someone saying if leash biting is a problem use a chain metal leash, not so much fun to bite.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

oh and one important thing to repeat is he doesn't usually bite his leash and get the zoomies out of happiness, it's more frustrated energy, like when he's told not to something.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

:wavey:


Ian'sgran said:


> Jackie, I think I remember someone saying if leash biting is a problem use a chain metal leash, not so much fun to bite.


I actually went to buy one yesterday but I have to get a clip to attach it still.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I gotta admit, I kept thinking how laid back he was looking, wondering when I'd see what you are seeing, and then the video was over! If Flip ever acted like that when going out I'd probably have him at the vet to see if he was sick! LOL


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

You mentioned in an earlier post that your husband took Cosmo out for a couple of hours-I wonder how Cosmo acts with him? Is he as bad? Worse? No difference? If there is a difference (good or bad), what do you and your DH do differently with him? Are either of you more strict?

Also, I don't want to harp on this, but your answer to my prong question was that neck collars don't work well. Have you ever tried a prong or are you thinking that because he doesn't work on a regular neck collar well that the prong wouldn't work since it's on the neck? My dogs can be nuts on a regular buckle collar, but the prong makes them think twice.

Another thought/question I had (yep, not doing much today-not feeling well) was what is your basic training philosophy? You mentioned the clicker in an earlier post-are you a mostly postitive trainer? There's nothing wrong with that, I have just been lead to believe that it sometimes takes longer to achieve self control (depending on the individual dog of course). What kind of consequences does Cosmo have if he misbehaves (not just in this problem, but in all your training scenarios)? Have you/are you taking any obedience classes with him?


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

I do a lot of training with him. I have been told that with a little more self control and a little more specialized training we could soon do some for fun obedience/rally. When he boarded at TNT they were very impressed with him.
I'm pretty no nonsense and I aim for 100% consistency. I work with untrained pits and shepherds and border collies. But I do not use a lot of punishment. 
Cosmo is walked almost exclusively on a very short leash with my husband so he's fine. It's me Cosmo listens to when he's off leash. He can often act overly submissive towards my husband.

I don't really care about how unruly he is if he is happy. I worry that he cannot relax. We went camping with friends and for three days he did not stop moving. I worry about the effects it has on his health.

I will take the next chance I get to talk the vet behaviorist at work and get her recommendation. Until then I'm going to continue with more physical and mental exercise. I just bought a car today so I have more freedom to drive to the park. It means we will not buy the house with a yard we want for Cosmo but at least I can take him off leash more often and go to better classes further away.

Thanks for the imput everyone. I hope this thread will prove useful for others.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

IowaGold, I know Jackie had done tons of training with Cosmo. She has read and researched and worked with him-- he is just more driven than a lot of other dogs. I myself hate the prong idea and use a gentle leader which works for Jaro, but know that all dogs are not created equal and what works for one may not for another, just like with kids. Oh, and hope your feel better soon. Morning sickness? Don't want to tell you how long I had it with kid number two.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

Jackie, if he can't relax have you had his thyroid tested. A member of our Golden club has a hyperthyroid dog who can never be still.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Ian'sgran said:


> IowaGold, I know Jackie had done tons of training with Cosmo. She has read and researched and worked with him-- he is just more driven than a lot of other dogs. I myself hate the prong idea and use a gentle leader which works for Jaro, but know that all dogs are not created equal and what works for one may not for another, just like with kids. Oh, and hope your feel better soon. Morning sickness? Don't want to tell you how long I had it with kid number two.


I never meant to imply that she hadn't trained him. I assume that thought came up because I asked if she'd been to class with him? I personally found class very helpful with me high drive dogs. They got to work around several dogs (usually the same ones) so learned to ignore them and focus on me better. I was just wondering if Cosmo had been to a class and how he did in that situation. I don't think classes are just for beginner trainers. Sorry my post wasn't clear.

Glad to hear that Cosmo does well for your DH on leash. Hopefully he will learn to be as good for you.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

No offense taken at all. 

We don't get out to practice around other dogs near enough. Once he's there for a few minutes he's fine in terms of listening, but he's most definitely not going through commands relaxed.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Is Cosmo getting thyroid supplementation? If so, he may need an absorption recheck because he might be getting too much, causing the inability to relax. If he's not on a supplement, when was he last tested? 

Some of the behavior you described we see in Toby when he's going into his hyperthyroid phase. That's why I ask about the thyroid levels.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

I have yet to have him checked for thyroid. The vet thinks he's too young to have thyroid issues and that he's just a hyperactive Golden. It costs a lot here to get testing done and unfortunately the other half sees no reason to have him tested.

He did show signs of elevated heart rate when he went in for his neuter but nothing disconcerting. Is there a way that I can check his heart rate myself? What is normal when asleep/awake?


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

IowaGold, I am with you on classes as well as training yourself. I know how different they can be when around a bunch of people and dogs. Which reminds me I should be signing up for a new class for Jaro.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

I put him back on benadryl because with recent rains his allergies have been acting up again (and because the drowsiness works for me) but man oh man his tracking abilities are lacking when he's on benadryl...I guess he needs to be crazy Cosmo to track


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

jackie_hubert said:


> I have yet to have him checked for thyroid. The vet thinks he's too young to have thyroid issues and that he's just a hyperactive Golden. It costs a lot here to get testing done and unfortunately the other half sees no reason to have him tested.
> 
> He did show signs of elevated heart rate when he went in for his neuter but nothing disconcerting. Is there a way that I can check his heart rate myself? What is normal when asleep/awake?


You can usually feel a pulse on the inside of the rear leg (up near the groin, but on the leg) pretty easily. In a sleeping dog the rate will be around 60-80, maybe 100. In an awake but resting dog it will be a bit higher, maybe up to 120. In an excercising dog it can obviously go much higher.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

jackie_hubert said:


> Ok here's a video of a perfect example: Leash biting - YouTube
> 
> Once excited he might do this every few feet and it can be much more jumping and pulling at the leash.


Uhhh... Not to be a smart ass, but I don't see a problem here?

Can you have your husband go with you on a walk and video when he's more hyped up? Cuz now I'm really curious about what "crazed Cosmo" looks like ... and like Jodi, I'm thinking I need to send you video of a day in the life of Quiz. (I'd think he was sick or injured too with behavior like that.)

For reference, Quiz takes a looooooong time to settle in new, fun places, too. When I go to the mountain cabin twice each summer, he's a blur of fur the entire time, made worse by the fact that I always have friends with me, so it's new people in a new place! Woohoo! Like sugar-high kids at the Magic Kingdom! Now, he's responsive to cues, but it's not the same dog I have at home or in the obedience ring. Or when I house-sit for a friend with a pool, it takes about 3.5 days for him to get over his insane "pool lust" and finally decide he can lie down and relax. 
So, maybe it's not all that bad! ;-)


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

FlyingQuizini said:


> For reference, Quiz takes a looooooong time to settle in new, fun places, too. When I go to the mountain cabin twice each summer, he's a blur of fur the entire time, made worse by the fact that I always have friends with me, so it's new people in a new place! Woohoo! Like sugar-high kids at the Magic Kingdom! Now, he's responsive to cues, but it's not the same dog I have at home or in the obedience ring. Or when I house-sit for a friend with a pool, it takes about 3.5 days for him to get over his insane "pool lust" and finally decide he can lie down and relax.
> So, maybe it's not all that bad! ;-)


That describes Cosmo pretty well. I'm perfectly content to know that I just have a very fieldy dog - it's just odd that his littermates are nothing like him, at least the ones I know. They are lazy and have required no training at all. Plus, he's not from field lines, though structurally he looks like he is (especially compared to his sibs).


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

jackie_hubert said:


> I have yet to have him checked for thyroid. The vet thinks he's too young to have thyroid issues and that he's just a hyperactive Golden. It costs a lot here to get testing done and unfortunately the other half sees no reason to have him tested.
> 
> He did show signs of elevated heart rate when he went in for his neuter but nothing disconcerting. Is there a way that I can check his heart rate myself? What is normal when asleep/awake?


Here is a link discussing hyperthyroidism: Dog Hyperthyroidism - Pet Health Learning Center FYI. 

How much does a panel cost in Canada? According to Dr. Dodd's book on thyroid disease, she's diagnosing younger and younger dogs with it now. Didn't Claire's Friend's dog get diagnosed at about a year of age? So much of what you describe sounds just like our Toby before we reduced his supplementation dosage.


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## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

I've come to this thread a bit late, and definitely check out the vet angle, but... Control Unleashed is probably exactly the type of book I'd recommend if it isn't health related. Have you been trying some TTouch/massage with him? Sounds like he could use it. Definitely the Relaxation Protocol by Karen Overall is going to be *very* helpful for him. I assume he can do it easily inside (if you haven't started doing that bit yet, make it a priority). Once he can do it inside, do it in the backyard, then the frontyard, then start taking it to other places outside. I have seen seriously crazy dogs transformed with the RP. How about Look At That (LAT)? Is that helpful for things that hype him up? If the sound of the clicker gets him too excited, substitute a ball point pen, or anything that makes a reliable sound. If the clicker is ok though, do use it, as research has shown that simply the sound can help hyper and reactive dogs.

I would do lots of massage, and lots of RP, and find a trainer familiar with CU or at least the concepts in it. Even better would be to find a TTouch practitioner. Have you seen the "Through a Dog's Ear" music? It is music recorded specifically to calm dogs, and works very well. Perhaps play it before going out and doing some RP, then go for a short calm walk. Also DAP (Dog Appeasing Pheromone) has its supporters, it can help a dog feel less stressed/more calm/relaxed etc. You spray it on something like a bandana and put it around your dogs neck. Assuming it isn't health related, you need to set him up for some successes, however minor, then build on them. There are still more things you can do. If you are a mostly positive trainer there are some good Yahoo lists you can go to for advice. Good luck!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Uhhh... Not to be a smart ass, but I don't see a problem here?


I was thinking the same thing last night... just assumed he knew the camera was trained on him and he was being shy. My guy is not necessarily hyper, but if I bring the collar out and head for the door he's usually body slamming the front door and twirling around and jumping (I allow it because he's adorable). 

I guess I just wanted to say that I really think you have a normal healthy young golden. It takes them a couple years to settle down. You need to be patient and go with the flow right now. Getting into classes will help because you can see other dogs at the same level/age as him. And you will have instructors there to boost your confidence and help you. 

I think possibly the tracking could be encouraging him to pull if he doesn't know the difference between the time he's tracking and when he's just walking. Maybe make sure that he never gets to track unless he's wearing his special equipment, collar, and gets the cue words from you.  I know nothing about tracking, just throwing that out there.

ETA - He's an adorable little guy.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

The problem with video is that he does notice the camera and doesn't act himself. Plus when we're outside and the gets crazy I need both hands and the camera goes flying. I have a bunch if footage that's just randomly pointing at the sky, the ground and teeth. Lol. 

Dallas_Gold, i too thought that hyperthyroidism fits his behavior really well but it's really rare and is usually cancer related...

Lyssa, thanks for the great recommendations. I have in fact read CU and Overall. Certainly to both of them Cosmo's behaviour would be a bit concerning. I also do massage and tried DAP, though only the collar (since he's okay inside). One of the issues with the RP is that the clicker and food has the opposite effect on him, as does any amount of focused training (esp with food). I have successfully conditioned him to lay down with his head down for anything now but that doesn't mean he's relaxed. 

But perhaps I should count my blessings and thank god I have a motivated dog.

At least I'll be better equipped to work with the shelter dogs. I did once work with a spaniel like that there.


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## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

Maybe shape lying completely on the side instead as a new behaviour? I've heard that's a better behaviour for getting a true relax. Assuming of course you were doing more of a traditional down before. I did notice you saying you were reading CU, I was just commenting on the specific bits of it you should be pushing I guess. But it sounds like you are going in the right direction anyway, if you just want to calm him down. Like others were saying though, it sounds like he's just a young happy full of life golden.... it doesn't sound like he's a bit overly crazy, but that's something only professional help could tell you I guess.

With the RP, maybe get rid of the clicker, use a quiet word marker, and use some low-ish value food to keep him well below threshold. You'd need to experiment. That sounds like your main challenge in a nutshell, find ways to keep him under threshold. Whether it means clicking calming signals, with blinks, deep breaths, soft eyes..... or retreating from whatever is hyping him up to keep him under threshold, either way, he can't learn to be calm if he is right up there at 110%.

Also I would train some behaviours that work on his self control, things like doggy zen where he doesn't touch food when it's in front of him, doesn't go out the door when it's wide open, waits for a release to leave his crate (assuming he has one), doesn't fly off after you take his leash off but instead waits for a release word.... the list can go on forever. Working on his self control in situations like that carries over to him controlling himself more in general everyday situations. They're all easily shape-able/lure-able/capture-able with the clicker. I'd recommend the yahoo list ClickerSolutions for any general clicker help, they are a knowledgeable bunch. It's definitely possible to lower him down a few notches without having to wait for him to grow up, but it'll take some more work.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Thank you! I think we're thinking along the same lines.

We have indeed transitioned to laying on his side to relax. It's hard for him for sure.

We would never permit him to run out the door or take off without his release command. We probably spend about 80-90% of his training on impulse control. I think I'm fighting age on that one mostly.

If I applied even half of the effort of training Cosmo on any of the guide dogs I've worked with I swear they would have been ready at 12 months! But I know he is capable of SO much more than any of them.

Next time the two families with 8 and 10 months olds who won't even chase a ball make another snide remark about how my dog needs training I'm going to tell them to shove it! Lol



lyssa said:


> Maybe shape lying completely on the side instead as a new behaviour? I've heard that's a better behaviour for getting a true relax. Assuming of course you were doing more of a traditional down before. I did notice you saying you were reading CU, I was just commenting on the specific bits of it you should be pushing I guess. But it sounds like you are going in the right direction anyway, if you just want to calm him down. Like others were saying though, it sounds like he's just a young happy full of life golden.... it doesn't sound like he's a bit overly crazy, but that's something only professional help could tell you I guess.
> 
> With the RP, maybe get rid of the clicker, use a quiet word marker, and use some low-ish value food to keep him well below threshold. You'd need to experiment. That sounds like your main challenge in a nutshell, find ways to keep him under threshold. Whether it means clicking calming signals, with blinks, deep breaths, soft eyes..... or retreating from whatever is hyping him up to keep him under threshold, either way, he can't learn to be calm if he is right up there at 110%.
> 
> Also I would train some behaviours that work on his self control, things like doggy zen where he doesn't touch food when it's in front of him, doesn't go out the door when it's wide open, waits for a release to leave his crate (assuming he has one), doesn't fly off after you take his leash off but instead waits for a release word.... the list can go on forever. Working on his self control in situations like that carries over to him controlling himself more in general everyday situations. They're all easily shape-able/lure-able/capture-able with the clicker. I'd recommend the yahoo list ClickerSolutions for any general clicker help, they are a knowledgeable bunch. It's definitely possible to lower him down a few notches without having to wait for him to grow up, but it'll take some more work.


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## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

jackie_hubert said:


> Next time the two families with 8 and 10 months olds who won't even chase a ball make another snide remark about how my dog needs training I'm going to tell them to shove it! Lol


Ugh!!! Definitely! 

You and I are definitely on the same page it seems, so keep on doing what you already were. Don't know if you've heard of Sue Ailsby, she's my favourite clicker trainer.... she has a great structured series of training levels which are really good for impulse control as well as general obedience/tricks/shaping etc. Her 'old' levels are available free here: Introduction He sounds like a smart dog, get him really thinking and maybe drain some of the boundless energy of youth!


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Final update, I FINALLY had a chance to discuss Cosmo with the trainer that worked with him at TNT where he was boarded in August. She said that he is a very smart dog that will need to work to be calm. He was actually a perfect angel while he was there with no anxiety (that monkey!). We're not sure if it was the benadryl. the impacted anal glands, all the playtime or good handling that kept him calm there but he was fine with no leash biting at all. She suggested a halti and trying more dog sports, especially agility which will hone his thinking while excited skills - theoretically. But she wants us to do a variety so he stays challenged and to stay away from beginners training classes because he'll get bored and I'll get frustrated. Plus The other dogs will be less likely to distract him. She suggests intro rally.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Do you live close enough to TNT to take classes there? I can guarantee you if I lived anywhere near there I'd be signed up for classes in a heartbeat! And doing whatever I needed to to work up the ladder to the advanced classes so I could take classes directly from Janice Gunn.

I know with Flip, exercise by itself doesn't do anything to calm him down, it just keeps him riled up. It has to be a combination of both mental and physical activity.

You said Cosmo gets too worked up when you try to use food. Instead of avoiding the use of food I use it to really work on self control skills. Like holding a treat right in front of his nose and he can't take it until I tell him to. If he tries to get at it before I tell him, I use the treat to bop him in the nose (many people would quickly withdraw the food, but that draws the dog closer into the treat. Doing the opposite gets the dog to back off of it). Or putting his food bowl on the floor and making him heel to the bowl (that one really kills him!). So instead of always doing things to calm my dog down, I am bringing those crazy urges out in him and teaching him how to control them.


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## GinnyinPA (Oct 31, 2010)

Are there any good online articles about the kind of training recommended by Leslie McDevitt in Control Unleashed? Money is really tight right now, but the description fits Ben absolutely. If we're going to continue training Ben, I need some help maintaining control. He's wasting a lot of time in class running wild. Ben loves going to school, especially agility, but half the time he goes crazy and zooms all over instead of doing what he's told. Tonight he started jumping and biting my husband mid-exercise; Jim's hands were bloody. He finished the series, eventually, but a lot of time was wasted getting him calmed down and focused again. If that keeps up we'll have to drop out of training - and we'd all lose.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My Laney (Mandell Marlenes Celebration UD RA CGC, pedigree on k9data) was only calmed down with mental exercise. I believe that if you have to physically exercise your dog to calm it down, the need and the amount increases. Mental exercise always brings my guys down a notch...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And Cosmo looks normal to me.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> You said Cosmo gets too worked up when you try to use food. Instead of avoiding the use of food I use it to really work on self control skills. Like holding a treat right in front of his nose and he can't take it until I tell him to. If he tries to get at it before I tell him, I use the treat to bop him in the nose (many people would quickly withdraw the food, but that draws the dog closer into the treat. Doing the opposite gets the dog to back off of it). Or putting his food bowl on the floor and making him heel to the bowl (that one really kills him!). So instead of always doing things to calm my dog down, I am bringing those crazy urges out in him and teaching him how to control them.


Funny you should say that I was actually just trying to go in another direction to deal with how excited he gets at dinner time by forcing him to think during that excitement. I spent about 30 secs teach him to bring me his food bowl in order to get dinner. Eventually I will go all the way across the house and he'll have to find a way to slide the bowl over to me over carpet and around objects, because he can't quite pick it up. Maybe thinking instead of reacting will help.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

He's really tired right now cause he went tracking earlier.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

GinnyinPA said:


> Are there any good online articles about the kind of training recommended by Leslie McDevitt in Control Unleashed? Money is really tight right now, but the description fits Ben absolutely. If we're going to continue training Ben, I need some help maintaining control. He's wasting a lot of time in class running wild. Ben loves going to school, especially agility, but half the time he goes crazy and zooms all over instead of doing what he's told. Tonight he started jumping and biting my husband mid-exercise; Jim's hands were bloody. He finished the series, eventually, but a lot of time was wasted getting him calmed down and focused again. If that keeps up we'll have to drop out of training - and we'd all lose.


Sounds familiar!

Are you looking for a copy of CU? Cause it's actually pretty cheap. You can usually also find it at the big libraries. And I think you can find Karen overall's relaxation protocol online as an mp3.


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## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

GinnyinPA, it sounds like CU was written for you and your dog. There has been a lot written on the Look At That technique from CU, but it is more for leash reactive dogs, although the technique can be used for virtually anything the dog doesn't like very much. Here is a good page discussing LAT Look at That! A Counterintuitive Approach to Dealing with Reactive Dogs « Dog Training for Dog Lovers Blog . 

Here's a page discussing Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol with basic instructions on how to do it. The RP is included in CU as Karen was a teacher and mentor to Leslie. Here's a video of a dog and handler trying to do Day 1 of the RP. 




It's harder to find information on TTouch freely available. Here's a site at least telling you what it is: Why TTouch® for Your Animal? - Tellington TTouch Training™ . Basic massage can at least help calm your dog, especially around the ears, jaw, and up and down the back in little circles.

To get the full impact of her book you really do need to read it. It should be available in many libraries. There are many many Youtube vids that can give you a good idea of many of the techniques also. If you're looking for specific information I could at least sum up parts of the book for you.

I would really recommend Through A Dog's Ear, the calming music for dogs. They even recommend humans shouldn't listen to it while driving in case it causes an accident! It does make me sleepy. There is a car version you could use for on the way to agility.

I would start each agility session with a slow massage on a mat, feel his chest with you hand, note his breathing and tune into your own. Your breathing should synchronise. It sounds like you may be hyping him up too much, either on purpose (tug etc?), or he just does it in reaction to what is going on. He needs to slow down and focus, learn to relax on cue, perhaps have him crated if that helps him (these are all things from CU). Either way that book and techniques are meant for you, as she is half behaviour expert, half agility nut.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> My Laney (Mandell Marlenes Celebration UD RA CGC, pedigree on k9data) was only calmed down with mental exercise. I believe that if you have to physically exercise your dog to calm it down, the need and the amount increases. Mental exercise always brings my guys down a notch...


This is aside the topic, but I wanted to say I love her pic on K9data. She looked like she was a great dog.


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## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

Jacqueline, I think Rally is a great idea. For the moment it is likely all the excitement he needs IMO, while you continue to practice a solid relax, and maybe start doing some LAT at your new class. Agility can occasionally make the slightly manic dog worse - just look at CU and the dogs in the book. If you did it really right and had a great instructor it could work out well, but look carefully at the instructors and club before you decide....

Definitely not a beginner class! I think that would be awful. Before you buy a halti, have a read of this. It didn't exactly set me against head collars, but it has certainly made me more wary of them. If you're going to use one, be very careful physically and watch for a 'droop' in his spirit.

I think Rally at first is an excellent option, with Agility once he has learned a little more self control. You really are doing the right things.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

lyssa said:


> Before you buy a halti, have a read of this. It didn't exactly set me against head collars, but it has certainly made me more wary of them. If you're going to use one, be very careful physically and watch for a 'droop' in his spirit.


We have one and stoped using it because he looked so sad with it on. The trainer suggested taking in on walks and putting it on when he's way over threshold and I can't move with him zoomie'ing.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

He looks like a normal active golden to me.. At that age I had Titan in three different venues to keep his mind busy and every night my living room still looks like I have a toddler in the house. Toys strung all over. He also plays with his treat ball and must push it all over to get his beloved Charlie's... Now at 7 he will still grab the leash and take me for a "walk" . He is quite proud of that too. He will also scream through the house when his collar goes on for a walk.. I love my busy active boy and get more laughs out of him.. Enjoy that spark and give that active brain games he can play.


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## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

Glad you stopped using it then.... I can understand the attraction to use it in a situation like that, but I don't know if it's worth making him sad. A no pull harness for a short time? Recent research has shown certain harnesses restrict the shoulders and chests of dogs, no pull harnesses included, but they are ok as temporary measures, and don't have the psychological impact of a head halter, nor the potential to cripple. I wrote a blog post with photos of good and bad harnesses shortly after the research came out if anyone is interested: Assistance Dog Downunder: The right harness for your dog, and what not to get

Anyway will stop blabbering on.


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