# New to supplements...Help?



## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

The only supplement I have ever given mine on a regular basis is salmon oil. It did wonders for my dog's skin and coat when he was having allergy issues with his food. A good brand is Iceland Pure and they, and any other brand, will have dosage on the bottle. It's usually anywhere from 2-4 pumps of oil depending on the weight of the dog.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

We only use omega 3 fish oil for our 2 dogs (Golden and GSD). It gives a really soft and shiny coat and can help prevent some cancers. We use the human kind that you can buy at places like Target and Wal-Mart. We give our dogs one tablet twice a day with their meals.


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

I've used salmon oil before. I currently use Nupro which has quite a bit of stuff in it that has helped with Tysen's coat.

For starters, I would suggest a good, well-balance diet and maybe some fish/salmon oil if you want.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I used Pet Tabs Plus to help a dog struggling with anemia from a tick disease- that is, until Hotel4Dogs let me know they had lead in them. I felt pretty betrayed by Pfizer/Virbac when I read about it, and discontinued them. 

We also use Dasuquin for joints.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I am not a big fan of supplementing. It's too easy to create an imbalance.
I prefer to feed a good, complete food, and only add Probiotics (I use Nature's Farmacy) which helps the body make the most out of the nutrients in the food as well as providing other benefits. My dogs are very healthy, have great consistently great coats, and good longevity.


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## Karey (May 23, 2009)

Bock said:


> I've used salmon oil before. I currently use Nupro which has quite a bit of stuff in it that has helped with Tysen's coat.
> 
> For starters, I would suggest a good, well-balance diet and maybe some fish/salmon oil if you want.



How do you use fish oil capsules? Just have the dog swallow them whole?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I am not a big fan of supplementing. It's too easy to create an imbalance.
> I prefer to feed a good, complete food, and only add Probiotics (I use Nature's Farmacy) which helps the body make the most out of the nutrients in the food as well as providing other benefits. My dogs are very healthy, have great consistently great coats, and good longevity.


I'm with you. Our dogs have great coats, proper stools, and lots of energy on the straight Eukanuba kibble and treats. No need for extra oils.

One thing about fish oil for coats: any fat will make coats shinier. Omega 3 fatty acids have been studied in humans and may help prevent heart disease and some cancers, but they haven't been studied nearly as much in dogs. I can't imagine it hurts the dog to have a little extra fish fat in the diet, but I would avoid overdoing it since dogs can have trouble metabolizing too much fat.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Many vets recommend relatively high doses of omega 3's found in fish oil.



> excerpt from the *The Arthritis Solution for Dogs* by Dr. Shawn Messonier, DVM
> 
> 
> Fats in the form of fatty acids have recently become a popular supplement among most veterinarians, not just those interested in holistic care. We are, in fact, just beginning to see that fatty acids may be valuable in a variety of conditions. Fatty acids were first purported to work in some pets with allergic dermatitis, and are in fact an essential part of the pet's diet. They are also prescribed for pets with dry flaky skin and dull coats. Recently, they have been advocated in pets with kidney disease, elevated cholesterol, and arthritis.
> ...


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## Karey (May 23, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> I am not a big fan of supplementing. It's too easy to create an imbalance.
> I prefer to feed a good, complete food, and only add Probiotics (I use Nature's Farmacy) which helps the body make the most out of the nutrients in the food as well as providing other benefits. My dogs are very healthy, have great consistently great coats, and good longevity.


Which probiotics do you use? The Digestive Enhancer? They have many different options on the website...


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Karey said:


> Which probiotics do you use? The Digestive Enhancer? They have many different options on the website...


Pointgold has gotten many of us using the Digestive Enhancer. It is very economical and has a stable, long shelf life. I order the 2 lb tub and it lasts our 4 adults 4-5 months.


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

I feed Cosequin DS (capsules), salmon oil capsule, another fish oil capsule, and Wellactin. 

I swear by Cosequin both to help joints and as a preventative. I have seen Cosequin work miracles with older dogs or dogs with joint problems or old injuries (even helping arthritic dogs).


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Many vets recommend relatively high doses of omega 3's found in fish oil.


Dr. Messonier's book makes the same series of assumptions that many others do: that a combination of human and canine research is enough to draw conclusions that Omega 3's in large quantities are a complete positive as a canine supplement.

The benefits of Omega 3's in humans, where they've been extensively studied, are only now emerging as solid science. In dogs, that science is more tenuous. I don't think it's wrong to give your dogs fish oil. In fact, it probably does carry health benefits. If and when more complete, conclusive evidence comes out from reliable sources that fish oil supplements reduce cancer risk in dogs, I'll happily jump on the bandwagon. But for now, since the whole risk/reward profile hasn't been adequately mapped out, I'll be on the sidelines.

One other thing to consider with supplements in general is that many beneficial supplements can't be absorbed as well in their pure forms. For example, if you take iron supplements with your calcium supplements, you won't absorb the calcium well and it will pass out of the body. This kind of nutrient availability isn't well studied with dogs and fish oil. 

A general good principle with supplements is to try to get the dog that same element, but in a whole food. Omega-3 eggs, for example, or actual fish would be a great way to give your dog access to those nutrients in a real food if you believe that they have healthful properties.

I hope everybody realizes that I'm not against fish oil. Quite the contrary. I am, however, trying to get people to avoid jumping on whatever nutritional fad spins across the internet in a given week. I see unsubstantiated nutritional claims as a major problem on this forum and online more generally, so I feel the need to jump in and acknowledge the complexity of the elements of nutrition and the difficulty in making definitive statements about their benefits. Fish oil looks like it may be here to stay, as there's more evidence that it's good than there is for things like bee pollen or echinacea, but it's not quite there yet as a _definite_ good for our dogs, so if you give it, give it with that understanding.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> Dr. Messonier's book makes the same series of assumptions that many others do: that a combination of human and canine research is enough to draw conclusions that Omega 3's in large quantities are a complete positive as a canine supplement.
> 
> The benefits of Omega 3's in humans, where they've been extensively studied, are only now emerging as solid science. In dogs, that science is more tenuous. I don't think it's wrong to give your dogs fish oil. In fact, it probably does carry health benefits. If and when more complete, conclusive evidence comes out from reliable sources that fish oil supplements reduce cancer risk in dogs, I'll happily jump on the bandwagon. But for now, since the whole risk/reward profile hasn't been adequately mapped out, I'll be on the sidelines.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with this. I'm not "against" fish oil, either. In fact, my dear retired vet always supplemented high doses of it when administering any steroid. I think it can be very useful. I won't supplement with it regularly, though, as I cannot stand the way that it makes dogs smell.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Without getting into a huge amount of detail (besides a forum search should also reveal more detail explanations as this topic has been discussed many times before)... Omega 6's are for skin and coat health (suppleness and shine) and are easily added to the diet by the addition of most vegetable oils (sunflower, safflower, corn, canola, soybean, etc)... but unfortunately they increase the inflammation response of the immune system. Well the Omega 3's reduce inflammation responses of the body thereby helping reduce the effects of allergies (also benefits the eyes, brain, cardiovascular system in general, and may reduce growth of certain tumors)... however since blood thins and clotting is slowed and the inflammation responses are reduced by the additions of Omega 3s, there is such a thing as too much of a good thing and side-effects of too much Omega 3 can be deadly. Although the dog's body can synthesis Omega 3's (the only truly essential fatty acids for dogs is an Omega 6), it is still beneficial to add Omega 3s to the diet. This can be done by adding flaxseed or borage seed oils (ALA precursor) and/or the addition of fish body oils (DHA, EPA) (Note: liver oils do contain concentrations of Omega 3's but also contain very high amounts of vits A and D as well as many minerals... unfortunately these can build up to toxic levels over time and adversely affect your dog's health permanently). Therefore balance is what's really important... but there is disagreement by the 'experts' on just what the optimal balance is for dogs (and even humans). Optimal balance Omega 6/3 ratios touted seem to vary anywhere between 2:1 to 12:1 depending on which 'expert' is doing the talking, however regardless of the ratio chosen its still much lower than in the olden days when most kibbles typically contained ratios of 300:1 and higher under the belief that the dog's body would convert whatever it needed to balance this and besides the excess Omega 6's made for a shiny coat, which for most people is a proof of health. Under those conditions any addition of Omega 3 oils was welcomed and it seems it simply couldn't be over done. Today though is a different story. Many, if not all, quality brands of kibble pretty much already have Omega ratios well below 12:1 and many are probably in the 3:1 to 6:1 range. Under this new scenario it is quite possible to reduce that ratio to 1:1 or worse if fish oils are added to the diet and the complications stemming from this excessive addition become a real possibility.

What it all boils down to is this... in most cases it is not stated exactly what the absolute amounts of each oil is in each cup of kibble and no ratios are provided on the bag, therefore the question becomes "How much fish oil should it be safe to supplement this kibble with?" and the answer is "You simply don't know". Thus there is an element of risk to long term supplementation of fish oils in the diet. I believe a better approach might be to select a high-quality kibble that purports to contain the "optimal ratio" of Omegas and either abstain from any Omega 3 supplementations or be very conservative in your additions.

In general the thing about most all supplementation is over time excesses of one thing can lead to irreversible health consequences and if its part of a balance grouping (many minerals fall into this category) you can actually induce a deficiency of another nutrient. Balance is a very important concept in nutrition and if you don't really have the knowledge to do this then you are really just using your best buddy as an experiment. Humans can allow their cravings and internal intuition to guide their dietary choices from a huge variety of foods and supplements available to us, however dogs canNOT. They can only eat whatever it is you chose to provide for them and in most cases cannot kill and forage for themselves. I think it wise to let the experts with the knowledge, experience, and access to many proprietary studies and results of carefully designed and monitored lab experiments do the dietary balancing act. All I'm saying here is please be careful about adding supplements over greatly extended periods... I don't even recommend feeding just one single kibble over the life of a pet. Since the 'experts' can't even fully agree on these things it stands to reason they too are still learning and adjusting the formulations... besides I believe a dog's ideal nutritional requirements are not static and will change over time due to aging and to variations in activities and the environmental conditions.


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## Karey (May 23, 2009)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Pointgold has gotten many of us using the Digestive Enhancer. It is very economical and has a stable, long shelf life. I order the 2 lb tub and it lasts our 4 adults 4-5 months.


So what are the benefits of this supplement? Probiotics have gotten popular in the human realm over the last few years, but it isn't something I have chosen to take personally as a supplement yet. I just recently started doing a lot of research about foods/supplements as I started competing in bodybuilding. As a result, my diet has completely changed (for the better) and I take fish oil, flax oil/ground flaxseed supplements daily. We lost our previous mixed breed dog 1 1/2 years ago to cancer, and at that time I hadn't done any research on foods/supplements/cancer prevention. So, when I got Mika a week ago, I figured it was time to start talking about foods, supplements and the like. It's hard to find a reliable source online for reviews/recommendations but I will try to weed through them in the coming weeks. Since Mika is older, I would like to make sure she is getting everything she needs for this stage in her life. If Probiotics would help that, it would be wonderful...but if you could point me in the direction of articles on the benefits of the supplement..I could do the research. 

I'm still on the fence about the food. Since Mika seems to be doing fine on the Nutro, I'll continue it until it gets time to get more. If at that point I can find a superior food, I may switch her.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

http://www.naturesfarmacy.com/blog/category/probiotics/

There are several very good articles/blogs regarding probiotics/enzymes.
Please note that I am the world's biggest skeptic - I was not easily convinced to even _try _probiotics (I started several years ago using Fast Trak) and now won't feed without it.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

PG, forgive me but I really feel I should point out there is a distinction that should be made... probiotics is one thing and digestive enzymes are another. They should not be considered as doing the same thing nor do they entail the same risks. I personally have my own reservations about consuming digestive enzymes long-term in humans or animals with a perfectly functioning liver and pancreas. Probiotics, as far as I'm concerned, don't carry the same risk. Not trying to start anything here but I don't want people to assume the two things are one and the same. I know nothing of this Digestive Enhancer nor what's in it... I don't really care. I just don't want people assuming probiotics and digestive enzymes are the same thing. People, please research and don't just 'swallow' anything.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I've never referred to them as one and the same. The product that I use contains both, and they are differentiated. The articles discuss both.


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## Doodle (Apr 6, 2009)

Since I just got off the phone with what sounded like a knowlegable person from the Nature's Farmacy company (I was calling to ask some questions about this product for Brady), I can tell you that this product is comprised of probiotics, digestive enzymes and some minerals (calcium, phosphorus and potassium). The probiotics are there to balance the gut flora so that the dogs can get the most out of their foods and to help the food move properly through the gut. The digestive enzymes are there to help make the food more digestable AND to reduce/alter the fermentation process of grains and starches and therefore reduce the risk of bloat. I first called because I was concerned that the calcium/phos levels would be too high in combination with Brady's food (Wellness Core has 2% calcium, 1.4% phosphorus...AAFCO maximums are 2.5% calcium and 1.6% phosphorus). Given that the food is already pretty close to those maximums, I was concerned that giving this supplement in addition would go over those amounts. They told me this should not be a concern since dogs only actually absorb about 50% of the nutrients in dry kibble. That surprised me and I have to admit I'm a bit sceptical on that point...anyone have any thoughts on that????


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## Zeppelin (Jun 28, 2009)

I have also started to wonder if my dog should be started on a supplement of some kind. Zeppelin is 13mo. neutered male...and he has had a laundry list of problems. It started with Giardia (sp??) at about 4mos (antibiotics took care of that). Then demodetic (sp??) mange at about 6mos (an ointment took care of this one...). Then, he ate 1/2 a corn cob (i was horrified!) at a friend's BBQ, that cost me $250 at the emergency vet for X-rays. Thankfully, the cob did not seem to be in there...he passed it on his own without me even noticing). Then a skin cancer scare at 11mos (the growth was removed, and was benign so we just had to deal with the stitches on his head for 2weeks). Whew...well, add another few things to the list. Less than a week ago, i noticed he had a lump on the top of his muzzle. I figured he hit it on something as it just looked swollen at the time. By about 3pm that same day, i noticed he had developed a rash on his belly, in his "arm pits" and "leg pits". I called the vet and they instructed me to give him some Benedryl until my appointment the next day. The vet thinks the rash was caused by something he came into contact with as it was only on his underside. The nose she believed to be unrelated to the rash (bumped it, got scratched by the cat, bit by a bug...who knows). 

Poor Zep is now on prednisone (20mg tablets...geez) in a decreasing dosage until the bottle is gone and an antibiotic 3xday. I absolutely HATE pumping him full of this stuff! I was worried that he could have a problem with his immune system (why else would he be getting all these things?) so my vet suggested starting him on a supplement. They recommended Nupro (www.nuprosupplements.com). 

I must admit that i am very tempted to try this as it is all natural and the testimonals are convincing (obviously). I'm wondering if anyone has tried this supplement or if anyone can offer some advice. I just want him to be happy and healthy. Right now, he's neither happy or healthy. The darn steroids are making him SO thirsty and he is needing to pee all the time! Plus, i cant imagine he feels all that great as he is not all that interested in playing (and he LOVES to play!) and he's pretty low key right now. 

Thanks so much!


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