# Cesar Millan, do you agree with him or not?



## TheHooch

I can take him or leave him. I don;t watch the shows so I guess I really don;t have an opinion. But I imagine it is like every other dog book I have read some of it I agree with and some I don;t I just tend to take things away from everyone that works for me and go from there.


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## AquaClaraCanines

You really want to see a fight...

I don't like things about him. I have chilled out of hating him because I agree with some stuff he says. But I DO NOT agree with the whole dominance thing at all- that is where I disagree with him.

Monomer and I love to debate this... hehehehe

My dogs sleep in my bed, eat off my plate, and walk out the door ahead of me... I have no problems with any of them... and never really have had a problem controlling or training any dog. So... yes I am a leader and confident, but I don't equate everything dogs do to dominance.


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## AquaClaraCanines

BTW he is TOTALLY right about idiots taking insane dogs to dog parks... and he is totally right about exercise.


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## vrocco1

You just need to that consider it is TV. I don't believe anything I see on TV, or read in the newspaper. Unless it appears on the GRF, I don't care about it.


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## MisterBailey

We watch the TV show when its on and enjoy it, but I don't agree with everything he does. He does seem to get some results, but I always wonder just how well it works when he isn't there. I mean, he walks in, goes "SHH!" and points his finger at the dog and it sits/lies down/whatever  Impressive in a way, but does that really work for everyone?

I read his book before getting a dog and I didn't enjoy it. He had a list of reasons why you shouldn't get a dog. According to him I shouldn't own a dog because I want a companion. That was when I closed the book and returned it to the library. Still watch the show but....yeah...


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## fostermom

I think he is right about some things, like making sure that you are not a push over for your dogs. But I do think it depends on the personality of the dogs. Jasper and Danny are typical, sweet goldens and I allow them to sleep in the bed with me when my husband isn't home. Jasmine on the other hand is a dominant girl, who will take a mile if you give her an inch. She is not allowed on the beds and when it comes to our sofa (as opposed to the "dog" sofa), she has to be invited to come up. When she was younger, she would growl at me when I went to crate her when I was leaving for work. She also used to sleep with my son and if he moved during the night, she would growl at him. So she got demoted and became the sweetest, most agreeable girl!


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## HuntersMomma

I think he stinks.. i mean there are some things he does do i like but its not alot other wise.. he bites the big one..lol


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## Oaklys Dad

TheHooch said:


> I can take him or leave him. I don;t watch the shows so I guess I really don;t have an opinion. But I imagine it is like every other dog book I have read some of it I agree with and some I don;t I just tend to take things away from everyone that works for me and go from there.


I'm with you Hooch. I think the bigger your bag of tricks you have up your sleeve the better. Different dogs react differently to different training techniques. The obedience trainer I used with my Arby always said "try this, if it doesn't work don't worry I have lots more ideas.." 

When I took Oakly to his basic obedience training it was clicker training but I found myself also giving leash corrections along with the clicking but it worked.


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## Thor's Mom

Personally, I think he's as intuned to your pet as the "pet psychic." Have you seen the losers that call for his help (the humans?)???? He's on tv and he's making money, he's as cunning as he needs to be to fill his pockets as he sees fit. If you need help with your dog, ask the gang here. You'll get better advice given lovingly and free.


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## MaddieMagoo

Very well said Thor's Mom...

I like some of your viewpoints...on the other forum that I quit FOR GOOD!!! YIPPE go me!! 

Anyway...the people on that forum we're just soo excited for his new book coming out...it's like OH MY LORD!! Then they cut me down just cuz I said I didn't like what he did...jeeze...it's a FREEE country...I can say what I want.

So..in conclusion I don't think you have to "dominate" your dog...that's what he preaches...and it gets ANNOYING...so screw him and I'm not watching his show...wut a GOLD DIGGER...hahahahahaha...ok I'll stop.

Linda says that she doesn't believe you should "dominate" your dog...but have leadership and have a good realtionship can take you along way!


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## Thor's Mom

I agree, good leadership is key. I don't want my pets to fear me, why have them if that's the case? You only need the GRF any other forum is . . . . :yuck:


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## AquaClaraCanines

hahahaha


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## Emma&Tilly

hmmm...there is an article written my Mark Derr that I recall reading some time a go, I do remember agreeing with some of what he was saying about CM...so if I can find it that may help summerise my thoughts...I try not to watch his shows anymore (life's too short to sit cringing for half an hour!) I did for a while...trying to tune in to the Cesar way, (as I often leave these threads thinking it must just be me that does not 'understand' his thinking) but I am quite sure I do, it just isn't really inline with what I think about dog behaviour. I do like what he says about exercise, as in most cases the dogs arent getting anywhere near enough!!!

Like I said, I agree with some of what Mark Derr is saying here...if I could be bothered I should highlight the sections I feel most relevant but it is late and I am tired!

Pack of Lies - New York Times


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## Bailey & Bentley

I do watch his shows from time to time. I do agree with some things and disagree with some things. I just find it hard to believe that things come so easily for him. I think there is a lot of behind the scenes stuff you don't see.


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## MaddieMagoo

I do have to agree with that article...Maddie LIVES for praise...and I don't think she would live without it. Or TREATS...jeeze...what an idiot...

HEHE...you are right about the other forums that are SUCKY...I mean on here we laugh til' the cows come home...hhehe...GRF...is THE PLACE TO BE!!


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## Sunshine Goldens

AquaClaraCanines said:


> My dogs sleep in my bed, eat off my plate, and walk out the door ahead of me... I have no problems with any of them... and never really have had a problem controlling or training any dog. So... yes I am a leader and confident, but I don't equate everything dogs do to dominance.


Ditto here. I do believe though that there are certain dogs and certain breeds where a more confident handler is essential. Those dogs though usually also benefit from a great deal of exercise and mental stimulation. I have witnessed again and again a dog who acted like a total jackass with one person and fell right into line with someone handling them who is confident and "gets" dogs.

I like Cesar - I feel like a lot of what he says and does are good examples for people who treat their dogs like people and then wonder why they are "misbehaving". My personal fave though is Jan Fennell. If it weren't for her book "The Dog Listener" Dave and I would have likely had to put our old dog down...he was an accident waiting to happen on the track we were on.


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## AquaClaraCanines

I have handled 100 plus pound intact male wolfhounds, several German Shepherds, LOTS of Pit Bull Terriers, etc... and yes they do require more confident, physically stronger, mentally confident handling! Absolutely!  I'll never consider them "dominant" though. Just... more dog than a Whippet or Golden.


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## Sunshine Goldens

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I have handled 100 plus pound intact male wolfhounds, several German Shepherds, LOTS of Pit Bull Terriers, etc... and yes they do require more confident, physically stronger, mentally confident handling! Absolutely!  I'll never consider them "dominant" though. Just... more dog than a Whippet or Golden.


I find some dogs need leadership. Without it they become insecure wrecks. "Dominant" is a term so overused it is starting to lose its real meaning. That is one thing that does worry me about people who watch CM and don't know dogs...they interpret every behavior as dominance. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

I am a confident handler BUT when it comes to dogs in my home, I always say I don't want any dog smarter than me! LOL! Like Border Collies..........:doh: Give me a big old lunkheaded Labbie or Golden any day!

I don't know sighthounds - I've encountered a few Greyhounds but that's about it. I think I would probably really enjoy them though - from what you've said about your Whippets...I like the sound of their temperaments and mannerisms.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Sighthounds are very intelligent- more than most of the more "trainable" breeds- but it's raw intelligence. Not biddability. The two are often confused LOL. If you don't like cats, don't get a sighthound... they know how to give you the finger LOL  but they're so calm and easy going.


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## gold'nchocolate

I'm watching him right now as I'm reading this thread. I like him (plus I think he's cute). I don't agree with everything he says but many of the dogs that are on his show are very aggressive. Some of the most aggressive that I've seen him work with are the little breeds...tonight it was a dachsund that was extremely ferocious and the owner was clueless on what to do about this little terror controlling the household. I also like Jan Fennell, Ian Dunbar, Sarah Hodgson, and lots of others. I take what I can use from their books and leave the rest.


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## foreveramber

i just like watching the show because the dogs on there make me feel better about jakes behavior...:doh:


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## AquaClaraCanines

Cesar? CUTE? No way? Seriously? hahaha wow


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## AquaClaraCanines

LOL foreveramber


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## Jazzys Mom

I have to agree with Amber - I think he's cute too! I know, I know - I can hear the ukkks now!: 

As for CM methods - there are many things I like and there are some things I don't like. I think dominance is overused. I don't think we need to "dominate" our dogs, we just need to be confident in handling them and they will return the favor and obey. I have tried CM "bite" - can't seem to get it to work for me although it does make sense. I think that is overused though too. I have CM's book and will probably get his 2nd book that has just been released. There are many good points in the book and it seems when I watch him or read his book I do more intense training with the girls. Now THEY would probably eat the book if they could get to it! BTW - Jazzy LOVES Cesar! Watches his whole show!

Jazzys Mom


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## MaddieMagoo

NAHH...I don't think Cesar is CUTE...he's a little weird for me...kind of perverted...sorry I've seen some of his shows and he shows what a dogs behavior is like...YIKES!!!


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## Swampcollie

I cringe when CM's show comes on. 
CM is a good trainer but his shows lead people to undertake procedures that could be dangerous with the wrong dog.

Ceasar's shows take for granted that owners are adept at reading their own dogs. This is an "assumption" that is often wrong. Most owners with training issues lack the ability to accurately read their dog, thereby creating the training problems in the first place. 

Undertaking some of those dominance exercises when you can't read the dog could well get you a nasty bite when you least expect it.


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## boyd114

personnally we love him and his techniques and the way he always stays so calm when dealing with the dogs! everyone has there own opinion though!


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## Me&Ruby

I think it's entertaining to watch the programmes (the dogs rather than the training - and yes I'm one of those that think, phew! at least mine's not that bad!), but I don't know how much of the methods I could really take onboard FOR MY DOG. If anything, I think the best demo of the shows is staying CALM no matter what your dog's doing.


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## MaddieMagoo

Yes, we all have our different opinions and that's what makes the world...wouldn't it be weird if EVERYONE had the same opinion...jeeze...I'd move to Mars.

I do agree about the exercise part and that's pretty much with what I agree with. Not the whole exercise, discipline, and affection. IN competing with dogs and training them you give them exercise after you train and corrections and affection for a job well done or not so well. So..that's the part I'm confused about, so I tend to not believe in his methods.

I had this one friend of mine over who will start showing...as soon as that little devil comes back from Florida!!! LOL...and we we're watching that, and she likes him...I agreed but I didn't say anymore...

Someone earlier in the thread said something about their glad their dog doesn't do that...if you think about it, the dogs that get *mostly* calls about, are rescues? Or adopted dogs? I'm not saying all of them were...but some?


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## Guest

Great post topic!! But wow some of you are so critical!...I personally do like Caesar. In most cases I enjoy watching the show for the simple hope that he can help dogs that really need help. When in reality it’s mostly the owners that make them that way. And if you have ever looked at my pictures and read my info I have a 1 year old beautiful pit bull girl. And I think mostly why I am so impressed is because he gives pit bulls a chance and knows they are good dogs unlike those stereo typical people who don't have a heart or are willing to give a dog a chance. Its not that all pits are mean and he has said they have a bad rap but you have to train them correctly and watch for potentially hazardous flaws. I may be wrong and he may not be right in all he does but I think that someone that can over power dogs the ways he does without abuse or hardly any physical contact is amazing. I don’t think it would be easy to stage such acts. I do of course let my pups sleep in bed and my Bassett has very bad manners but my dogs are still good dogs (rotten of course.) But I don't care if he came in my home today I wouldn't change a thing about them or how I raise them. But I don’t know my opinion is defiantly different from most but don’t punish me for my opinion for which I am entitled to.


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## Lucky's mom

I think people who have problems with their dogs need different options to choose and glean from since dogs and owners are different. I think any successful trainer has something to offer.


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## Goldndust

I think everyone has the right too there opinions, and I think anyone in the limelight will take the hits more then anyone else on how they are liked, or disliked. What I always find most interesting though is nothing is ever fact based so it really proves nothing at all on a board, just I like him, or I don't. lol

There are people that like or dislike, "It's me or the Dog" as well, the Ian Dunbars, the Oprahs, Degenerous, Monks of New Skeet, Stanley Corans, Patricia McConnell, Jean Donaldson, etc. I could go on and on....

I've seen boards give information out that could do more harm to a dog without warnings then i've seen on shows or read in books. All warnings are given for seeking professional help when one is only speaking of CM which this topic is about and dealing with aggressive dogs, or dogs with issues. All the dogs he works with are evaluated, and medically checked before anything is done, this is also fact based. 

Weather one agrees or not, it says nothing at all nor proves one way or the other, they are only our opinions and not fact based. One thing I do know that is fact is his seminars are always packed too the hilt, he has a pack of anywhere from 30-50 Pits, Rotts, Golden, yes a rehabilitated golden...and everything inbetween that follows him and excepts him as there leader, inside the fence as well as outside on there runs high up in the hills, I see a tremendous amount of work that went into these dogs as well as those he helps to save them from deaths door. This is fact based, not my opinions of him. I deal with facts, not fiction nor opinions when I watch, or read since I know everyone has the right to say what they feel, but it doesn't make it fact. I've learned to do this through the years, i've also learned too know what works on my dogs, and what doesn't over the years and no two were the same. I think weather one likes someone or not, they should do there homework and there research and go with what there comfortable with in the end and go with what works, I know with my dogs many things i've seen on CM's show works, and I personally have used them. That is a fact, not my opinion. 

And as for the cases he's worked on in the past, they are working on that to bring up too date. I have his newest book and it is addressed as well as others questions that were asked to him. Now i'd like to see the others that I watch on TV be addressed as well, I never heard mention of this person or addressing just how the dogs were doing after the show ended.


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## heartofgold

Oaklys Dad said:


> I'm with you Hooch. I think the bigger your bag of tricks you have up your sleeve the better. Different dogs react differently to different training techniques. The obedience trainer I used with my Arby always said "try this, if it doesn't work don't worry I have lots more ideas.."
> 
> When I took Oakly to his basic obedience training it was clicker training but I found myself also giving leash corrections along with the clicking but it worked.


I totally agree that different dogs need different training techniques. Also, owners of golden's generally don't have dominence issues with their dogs so, it's fine if the dog wants to sleep in the bed, eat off your plate, walk ahead of you, ect. Where as with other breeds owner's have to be very very careful about this. I volunteer at a local rescue shelter and over the years we have had many dogs turned over to us because their owners were being bullied by their own dog. The Cocker Spaniel is one breed that stands out in my mind. I can't tell you how many families with small children adopt these cute little Cocker puppies and they don't nip the dominence issue in the bud right away because "it's just a puppy". Then one year later the dog gets turned in for biting the children. All it needed was some dominence training when it was a pup.


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## bizzy

CreekviewGoldens said:


> IN competing with dogs and training them you give them exercise after you train and corrections and affection for a job well done or not so well. So..that's the part I'm confused about, so I tend to not believe in his methods.


CM methouds are not "training methouds" They are not designed to teach a dog a skill such as on obediance retrieve. They are ment to correct behavioral problems. Have you ever had the chance to deal directly with a truly agressive dog? Where You were on the end of the leash or in the room with a dog who truly wanted to hurt you. Not play bite or just untrained but truly agressive that if you made a wrong move would seriously hurt you. I have been I my capasity as a dog groomer. Knowing how not to get hurt and change the mind frame of that dog is a totally different skill than "training" a dog for an OB competion. I highly respect him for standing up for these types of dogs and pointing out that it is often the human in charge who is the cause. Maybe leadership is a better term than dominance but not condeming a dog to be PTS just because a human screwed him up is worth doing. JMO


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## Cam's Mom

I think quite a few Golden owners have "dominance" issues with Goldens. They're not expecting any, it takes them by surprise, and they don't have a clue how ot deal with it. The're's way too much hype about Goldens being something other than dogs... I've had a few dominant Goldens through here, that have ended up in rescue. 

I agree with Ceasar on exercise, although I think he takes it a bit too far sometimes. I wouild like to hear htat there's more variety to dog handling on TV (we don't have TV, so i don't get to see it first hand...I've watched few clips, and I read his book....I much prefer the other Dog Whisperer, by Paul Owens.)


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## RoxyNoodle

I'm afraid I don't buy into dominance theories in relation to how thier view thier status within a family home.  If you decide and rigorously stick to a set of rules (such as no dogs on the bed, not feeding from the plate etc) from the day the puppy comes home and throughout the dogs life, they'll know exactly what is a expected of them, and when. By positively reinforcing good behaviour when they display it teaches them what you will and won't be happy with and it's this clarity that dogs need to live with us and feel a part of our lives. For e.g. I just can't see how a dog would equate walking through a doorway behind you to him being less important. It's practical, (I've taught Roxy this just so I can get in 1st and get the mat on the floor and towels to dry her off when she's muddy) but I'm not sure a dog sees a doorway as a high status thing/activity

I began to read the Dog Whisperer, and initailly found it interesting, but on the mention of ignoring my dog when I get home I put it down and refused to read anymore. That's crazy - the happy smiling tail wagging greeting is one of the main reasons I've got a golden. My life with her wouldn't be complete without seeing how happy she is when I appear.


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## Emma&Tilly

I would agree...I have problems with the fundamental theories behind his teaching...I just do not believe that a dog feels it can raise its ranking amongst humans...I do not believe they think in that way other than with their own kind...a dog does not think we are the same species as them, they do what works and that is that...if a dog growls when you try to move them from the sofa it is not because it believes it is moving above you in ranking and is now 'alpha,' it just jolly well likes it on the sofa and has never been given a good reason to come down...of course I agree with 'leadership' but to me this does not involve holding a dog down on its side in the street because it barks at other dogs...or yanking its collar constantly as the dog is confronted with what it fears...just not my style...


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## AquaClaraCanines

Emma&Tilly said:


> I would agree...I have problems with the fundamental theories behind his teaching...I just do not believe that a dog feels it can raise its ranking amongst humans...I do not believe they think in that way other than with their own kind...a dog does not think we are the same species as them, they do what works and that is that...if a dog growls when you try to move them from the sofa it is not because it believes it is moving above you in ranking and is now 'alpha,' it just jolly well likes it on the sofa and has never been given a good reason to come down...of course I agree with 'leadership' but to me this does not involve holding a dog down on its side in the street because it barks at other dogs...or yanking its collar constantly as the dog is confronted with what it fears...just not my style...


YES... exactly


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## FlyingQuizini

Cam's Mom said:


> I much prefer the other Dog Whisperer, by Paul Owens.


Woohoo! Me, too! Paul Owens ROCKS!


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## Lisa

I'm with the other ladies who think he is cute! :

I think his whole idea of how our "energy travels down the leash" is really true. If I am scattered and nervous... the dog will be too. I do agree with his idea of being calm and being a leader. And in confidently expecting the dog to comply. 

I don't agree with all of his approaches, though. I treat my dogs like my kids! However, my dogs listen to me! They listen way better than most teenagers listen to their human parents. :jester:

I like how Cesar seems to be commited to rehabilitating dogs who have severe behavior problems. He seems to care about rescue dogs. 

With Cesar, I take what I want and leave the rest!

Lisa W


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## Misslane&lois

hmm i am agree in one thing.
I adore being with lois and she sleeps sometimes with my fiance and I, and she makes thing that this trainner doesn't accept as right, but about the energy he has reason.
when I am down or if I fight with my fiance, lois is sad and down too, but well, dogs are more sensitive than us!! anyway, I am agree with him in few things and other things not!

LISA YOU ARE RIGHT!!! THEY ARE OUR BABIES hehehe!!! 
One thing is sure: I prefer being with Lois than other kind of people who annoy me!!! hehehe


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## Goldndust

You are correct, he very much has a love for dogs. He created the Cesar and Illusion foundation to help even more.

Cesar & Ilusion Millan Foundation


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## tcww

The Murph's trainer told us pretty much the same thing. She doesn't use one system....she uses what fits for the particular dog.


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## Lacy Licksalot

I'm with a lot of the other members. I honestly think it depends on the dog breed and its temperament. My Dixie is just crushed if I get mad at her, (which has not been often, because she don't like it when Mommy points her finger at her). She gets in the bed with me, goes out the door first and comes in first, with her I can tell that she is doing that in more of a protective mode than trying to be dominate. She wants to see what is out or in there before I get there. The calm part... yea I can see that.. but that is just common sense that should be used in dealing with anyone four or two legged. When you lose your cool the communication stops.


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## lovealways_jami

Im sorry guys, I love Cesar! I don't really use his techniques, but I do like the show. And he has complete control of his dogs, which has to mean something, right? I've seen him with 20 dogs at a time, and its not like that can really be fake, can it? Who knows! I do like the show ... I guess thats not what this thread is about huh? LOL


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## FlyingQuizini

lovealways_jami said:


> Im sorry guys, I love Cesar! I don't really use his techniques, but I do like the show. And he has complete control of his dogs, which has to mean something, right?


As an example...

Abusive husbands (psychological or otherwise) have complete control over their wives. Yeah, it means something alright...


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## Jen

FlyingQuizini said:


> As an example...
> 
> Abusive husbands (psychological or otherwise) have complete control over their wives. Yeah, it means something alright...


I think this is something quite different. 
I don't see ANY of Ceaser's dogs "cowering" or "acting scared, frightened or abused" in anyway. 
It is one thing to disagree with him and his ways but another to compare him to an abusive husband......


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## P NUT

Wow! this is a tough one. I do not like him beause he just irritates me. He seems so arrogant. My work boss thinks alot of him and thanks him for some of the techniques she has learned from. She has a Jack Russel/Beagle Cross rescue that needed some guidance. Cesar was great for her. I have a Golden Retriever. Not all sugar and honey in the beginning but EXTREMELY sensitive and at 4 1/2 yers of age is great. Still sensitive? yes. I like the guidance of Dr. Stanley Coren myself...


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## FlyingQuizini

Jen said:


> I think this is something quite different.
> I don't see ANY of Ceaser's dogs "cowering" or "acting scared, frightened or abused" in anyway.
> It is one thing to disagree with him and his ways but another to compare him to an abusive husband......


Well, I see several dogs who, at the end of an episode, are showing countless signs of being stressed and shut down. Much like a psychologically-abused spouse.

He achieves the so-called "total control" through coercion and dominance.

It's just not necessary, IMO.

He makes some good points (exercise, need for training, etc). I disagree with many of his methods. I'll leave it at that.


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## maggie1951

I do like him as someone said none of the dogs cower.
i hate to see dogs afraid of there owner or trainer.
We have used a few tips on Charlie i use the SSH and point the finger and use the touch and this has worked with Charlie much to me amazement but we all have our thoughts.
And i do agree with what he says that dogs need exercise so many people don't walk their dogs and wonder way they are misbehaved !!

Maggie


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## RoxyandTyson

*Cesar Mill-no...just no*



CreekviewGoldens said:


> Instead of asking this on the other thread about the book...I decided to make my own. I've heard some VERY good viewpoints...but like some of you have stated...he's an idiot. Sorry to break it to some of you who have loved him and adore him.
> 
> Jenna is right...Maddie sleeps with me on the weekends...how lame is that? Well, it's a school night and she tends to wake up and go potty and random times during the night. So I have to chase her around the house and put ther in the kennel downstairs. But what I've figured out is to take her potty at 11 PM...and head to bed and we both sleep good...except that she hogs the bed!!!:bowl:
> 
> Anyway...eesh I go on...sorry about that...ANYWAY...as I was saying I would like to know what you think about Cesar...and jeeze my GRANDMA watches his show...and thinks he's SOOO wonderful...I have to disagree with her on that one...
> 
> Some people thinks he's to harsh...while others thinks he works wonders...but what happens after the he leaves...do the dogs do that whole "submissive" thing with the owners??
> 
> So many questions to be answered...lol!:


I have to agree with 100%. And what _does _happen when he leaves anyway? I really don't think it works when he's gone. Dogs can sense your presence and perhaps his presence seems very dominant to them. I did watch a clip on youtube and I thought I'd try it out and surprise surprise it didn't work. I did give it a good chance though but the idea he had never prevailed. It was the clip when the border collie jumped up everytime she was about to get her leash to go for a walk. Tyson does that so I tried it but it just made him back off for literally 3 seconds.


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## Jen

RoxyandTyson said:


> And what _does _happen when he leaves anyway? .


I have watched several shows where they have gone back to the families to see how they are doing (usually several months later) and all had positive outcomes if they continued with the training.


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## RoxyandTyson

*I stand corrected*



Jen said:


> I have watched several shows where they have gone back to the families to see how they are doing (usually several months later) and all had positive outcomes if they continued with the training.


I never would have guessed. I do think that it just depends on how you carry yourself. One of the beautiful things about dogs is that they can sense your true personality regardless of what you do. If only people could do the same we'd save ourselves so much trouble


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## Lacy Licksalot

I am certainly no expert on training a dog.... but just about every dog I have ever seen thrives on attention. It seems to me that spending time and giving the dog positive attention when they do what you ask and is the best training. It not only builds a bond with your dog but it also allows you to learn your dogs personality. Once you know that, it's pretty easy to figure out what will work and not work in getting them to do what you want. Example.. Lacy was nipping at my hand, she loves me to rub her belly, when she gets too excited and starts nipping I stop and turn my back to her... this she hates.. after a couple of minutes I will pet her again... she is learning that if she wants her attention, that she can have it .... but its my way. Like a lot of other people here, both of my dog's come in the door before me... its just easier getting them in the house. Dixie starts on the bed and then gets down and so does Lacy. I was having a problem with Lacy jumping and nipping at my hand... well the belly rubbing thing has almost fixed the nipping thing... but I had to step out of the actual time frame that she was nipping in order to correct it. We are still working on the jumping thingy..... I think she is part frog.


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## SolidGold

Ok so I guess I am the minority on this one. I like CM and his techniques. I do believe that humans are responsible for making their dogs unbalanced and unstable. For example the other day I saw this lady pushing her dog in a STROLLER yes a baby stroller and talking to it like it was a baby. Now it was a tiny dog but still Cmon! Or the people that talk to their dog like they are a child and try to rationalize with them. Like for example... I am going to take you out of this park right now because you are being a bad boy..... They are dogs and they don't think that way!! Another point I agree with CM is the whole body language thing. Dogs know when you are confident or when you are fearful etc. Overall I may not agree with him 100% but I think he does great things for dogs in need. 

Laurie


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## chessergang

*The DOg Whisperer...*

I am new to this forum and this debate caught my eye cause I watch the show a lot and for the most part like it, but I don't agree with everything he says. One thing I have noticed though is this --- 
He NEVER gets called in about out of control Golden's. Whenever he needs a "calm, submissive" dog, he brings in his own golden. Kind of funny -- I think I've seen every other breed on there but this one. 
I have my first full blooded golden now. He is almost 6 months old and I LOVE HIM SO MUCH! He is a GREAT dog! Our Sadie passed away from old age about 6 mo. ago. She was a yellow lab / golden mix and I thought we'd never find another dog that we could love so much. 
I was wrong -- Newton has taken his own place in our hearts (even though we could never forget our Sadie girl). 
The only problem we have with him is jumping on strangers and kids cause he wants a kiss! :wave:


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## linktrek

I read his books Cesar's Way and bought a DVD from him. I think there is a place for his work but it is definitely wrong for a normal dog. Normal dogs respond to love and rewards more than trying to dominate them. I think trying to dominate a regular dog is needless stress on the dog.


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## Aprilpa

I love him. I have even been to one of his seminars. I think what is important to keep in mind is he is being called in as a last resort in a lot of these cases also. Most of these dogs have been told to be put down, or have had trainers that couldn't do anything with them or have already bitten. He isn't going in to teach obedience or tricks. And in alot of these cases it is painfully obvious that the owners don't have a clue, especially with the small dogs that they are treating like babies. 

I don't think there is any one training method that works for every dog. I have also been to a seminar with Brian Kilcommons and liked what he did as well. Each of my dogs has responded differently to different things, depending on what we were teaching. 

Clicker training worked great with my male dachshund. He absolutely loved it. But my husky was terrified of the clicker and my JRT was obsessed with it. It just wasn't a good tool for them. Ceasar's method of walking with a simple slip lead high on the neck has been the most effective way to get each of my dogs to walk on a leash right at my side without pulling. 

A raised voice is all it takes to make the goldens realize they need to stop something and it hurts their feelings. It takes much more than that to get through to the JRT, especially if he is locked into something. And my male dachshund who is the only dog I have ever had who is willing to take a snap at someone every once in awhile, does need reminding that he isn't the boss in the house. Which means that there are times when everyone else in the house has free reign of the bed or couch or toys whatever, and he does not. They may all get invited up to the bed and he will have to lay on the floor. It doesn't take him long to get back with the program. 

I think dogs are very in tuned to body language and that is why he is so successful with them. He stays calm, even when everyone else is frantic. I really like him, even if it is an unpopular opinion to have apparently.


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## bwoz

There is a new episode airing now that follows up with some of the people and dogs he's had on. I have to say he helped us understand our fearful 130 pound German Shepherd that most trainers and vets told us was a lost cause. I think every dog is different, and what works for one, doesn't work for another. I believe most dogs he works with are pretty extreme in their behavior, not like our perfect  Goldens.


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## maiapup

My first concern is the continual flashing of the 'do not try this at home' disclaimer. That to me, says it all! lol

My beef with this guy is that he knows absolutely nothing about 'dog psychology', he speaks in circles (really listen to him the next time, it's almost comical) and so much of what he says makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And if you hadn't noticed dogs acting fearful or stressful of him, you have not recognized some very common fear/stress signals, I see some on *every* show. His use of the phrase, calm and submissive is anything but....oftentimes the dogs are exhibiting full fear behaviors while he's calling them calm and submissive.

He also overuses the dominance bit, to be honest, very few behavior problems are caused by dogs wanting to 'dominate'. In actuality the majority of the time it's fear based. 

The things I do like (but are nothing new!) is that people do cause a lot of behavior problems in their pets, sometimes unknowingly but often times because they treat them like 'children' and not dogs, nor give them enough exercise or guidance. None of this is new, it's just that he has as 'edited' show on Nat Geo that 'showcases' him. This same thing happened when 'Uncle Matty' was on PBS, everyone jumped on the Uncle Matty bandwagon.

One other thing that disturbs me is that though I belive that a tired dog is a good dog, he also overuses the exercise bit and on a couple occassions with some of the bull breeds the dogs were in obvious heat distress while he was roller blading, running, etc. in the hot California weather. there was another show where he was over exercising a dog with obvious strucutral issues. This dog, a Newf was not in a physical condition to do the exercise he was forcing upon the dog.

I remember one episode where he was feeding the dogs and 'Daddy' growled at him and was exhibiting food possession behavior. He glossed over that. Another where he was 'training' a German Shepherd to be around a cat and was using a shock collar, but kept that hidden from the cameras, though a very observent person would see the collar on the dog in one sequence and Cesar taking or putting the control back in his pocket. In this episode in particular, the German Shepherd was exhibiting severe fear behaviors towards Cesar after a few 'zappings', but to someone who wasn't watching it was a miracle! Further, the manner in which he uses the other animals (in this case the cat) was extremely stressful to the cat. First, do no harm. 

We (animal behaviorsts at veterinary teaching universities) are seeing a number of problem cases coming in because people are trying 'cesar' things and making their dogs worse. This same thing happened with the 'Uncle Matty' group.

Remember that the show is edited and for all those shows that 'appeared' to be solved by magic, many of the dogs were not 'cured' and continued to have problems. Some were euthanized and really important to note is that some dogs have been killed while at the dog "psychology" center (and I'm not talking about the lab that was killed while on the treadmill), these were dogs killed by the other dogs in the 'calm, submissive' pack.


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## maiapup

I have watched several shows where they have gone back to the families to see how they are doing (usually several months later) and all had positive outcomes if they continued with the training

~~Of course, they aren't going to show those that haven't or are no longer alive! : )


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## bwoz

maiapup said:


> I have watched several shows where they have gone back to the families to see how they are doing (usually several months later) and all had positive outcomes if they continued with the training
> 
> ~~Of course, they aren't going to show those that haven't or are no longer alive! : )


 
Not being argumentative here, but they did show a few episodes where the dogs are still acting up after Cesar's visit. There was one where a Miniature Pinscher was put down after Cesar was there, and he expressed that he wished the owners would have called him first so he could have taken the dog. I'm not arguing pro or con here, but IMHO at least he is trying to help by taking in a dog that the owner is prepared to put down.


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## Emma&Tilly

I pretty much would have written Maiapup's post myself if I wasn't supposed to be writing an essay today...but just had to pick out this bit especially...



maiapup said:


> My beef with this guy is that he knows absolutely nothing about 'dog psychology', he speaks in circles (really listen to him the next time, it's almost comical) and so much of what he says makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.


...honestly a lot of the drivel he spouts IS very amusing...really listen to what he is actually saying and it is quite funny...After watching some shows recently I think about 50% of what he says to the owners is absolute meaningless, hollow nonsense..I was just watching a clip and a lady asks what he is doing when he makes that weird hacking sound and was waving his hand infront of the dogs face he replies by saying...'well what do you think I am doing...I am sending the energy'...sending the energy?? There also seems to be a lot about 'claiming the area'...and after tapping the dogs backside he says that was to show her he 'is serious about what he is projecting'...what??? The technique he taught this lady, to stop her excited jumping dog was to 'do what she is doing to you' and he used his foot to keep the dog back...hmmm...I am very glad they are forced to show the disclaimer...don't use these methods yourself! It reallydoes say it all. When I first saw him I couldn't quite believe they had called the show 'The Dog Whisperer' I mean come on...it implies a whole lot gentler approach!!


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## paula bedard

Fortunately, I haven't needed help with my boys. They're perfect except Ike still sits on me!!!!


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## maiapup

IMHO at least he is trying to help by taking in a dog that the owner is prepared to put down.

~~So are a lot of people who don't use the 'techniques'! There are tons of people who work with troubled dogs (or owners), they aren't in the spotlight. We help dogs all the time that are "on their way out" but we still use behaviorially healthy methods of behavior modification so that the people and the dog/cat/whatever are not harmed, physically or mentally.


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## bwoz

maiapup said:


> IMHO at least he is trying to help by taking in a dog that the owner is prepared to put down.
> 
> ~~So are a lot of people who don't use the 'techniques'! There are tons of people who work with troubled dogs (or owners), they aren't in the spotlight. We help dogs all the time that are "on their way out" but we still use behaviorially healthy methods of behavior modification so that the people and the dog/cat/whatever are not harmed, physically or mentally.


I guess dog training/behavior will always be one of the "GReat Debates". I'm not for or against any ONE method. Every person and dog is an individual. I say do what works for you. If you and your dog are comfortable with it, then that's what it's all about.


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## LifeOfRiley

maiapup said:


> My first concern is the continual flashing of the 'do not try this at home' disclaimer. That to me, says it all! lol


Exactly! I think it's very easy for this guy to be portrayed as some kind of miracle worker... _on television_.

Honestly, I have to add my own disclaimer, here - I've never actually watched his show. I haven't bothered, because what I've heard about him, I don't particularly care for. I tend to agree with Tamar Geller's approach much more than Milan's. (Again, from what I've _heard_ about him.)
I can't say that I agree with the whole 'you have to dominate your dog' philosophy. I've heard that he takes these "red zone", aggressive dogs and does the so-called alpha roll. No wonder they have to flash a "don't try this at home" disclaimer! In my opinion, that approach is stupid at best and extremely dangerous at worst. 
I had one personal experience with that sort of thing. I'll try to keep a long story short, but it happened when I was looking for a vet for my Shepherd, Alomar. The guy I went to was all put-off because Alomar growled at him. I told the guy that he would stop that and be perfectly behaved with him if I left the room. He chose not to listen and wanted to "show him who's boss." LOL. Long story short, he ended up backed into a corner, getting an up-close and personal look at Alomar's teeth. So much for trying to dominate him! 
I think, more often than not, that's what will happen if his approach is attempted with the wrong dog.


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## monomer

This thread is like a dozen or more started about Cesar... they all turn into bashing threads by the same small number of posters citing the same inaccuracies due to not actually having watched all his shows... so...
To all the people knocking Cesar... have you actually ever watched his show with a critical eye looking for the reasons why 80 million viewers tune in and why he has so many supporters?... far, far more than the few vocal critics (people who view themselves as his competitors) who dislike him and claim he is oh so dangerous. Also, how many of you have actually tried any of his techniques and wound up with the doom and gloom predicted and disastrous results. There is a lot of talking coming from people who don't even watch his shows and yet denounce methods they themselves have never tried... I believe they're too busy running their mouths claiming to know it all to actually stop to pay careful attention and learn something. When I have time later I will actually relate some stories about my experiences using some techniques I've learned by watching ALL of Cesar's shows to the point where I believe I finally understand what it is he's saying... and they are success stories. I believe I will post it to one of those more recent 'aggression' threads where I can focus several examples to one specific issue. Being at work so much, leaves me little time for creating big postings.


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## AmbikaGR

Well I guess another basher here.
In my opinion he is actually dangerous in his approach. As this is a TV show I believe, have no proof, that we do not get to see the whole story. Most board certified animal behaviorists, I think there are less than 50 in the USA, would tell you his idea of "flooding" can make serious issues even worse. Kind of like taking a person who is clostrophobic and looking the in a small dark closet, it will actually make the problem worse in most situatuins. I feel he is nothing more than a slick talking con artist. Doesn't mean I am right but it is my honest opinion of him.


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## Emma&Tilly

I really, truly have watched quite a few of his shows (they show them regularly on Sky now) and I watch them with an open mind...I really do....some are bareable, most leave me irritable but I can certainly say I do 'understand' what he is saying...it isn't all that mysterious...it is just from a very different viewpoint to my own...I generally disagree with his discriptions of the dogs mental state at different points in his teaching...he will describe what a dog is feeling and the reason why but I often interpret it differently from what I can see. I can take in what he is saying and I can consider it...but so far hasn't filtered into my own philosophy towards dogs.


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## maiapup

they all turn into bashing threads by the same small number of posters citing the same inaccuracies due to not actually having watched all his shows... so...

~~Okay..it was my first post on Cesar so this above reference is certainly not true. : ) And yes, I watch the show, so that we, at the university veterinary school behavior department are aware of what is going on in the public so that , we, the animal behavior folks (who really ARE psychologists!) can fix all the stuff they've done to their dogs as a result of watching him and not paying heed to the warnings posted a bazillion times thoughout the show. 

To all the people knocking Cesar... have you actually ever watched his show with a critical eye looking for the reasons why 80 million viewers tune in and why he has so many supporters?... f

~~My question to you would be have you actually watched the show with a critical eye and seen the harm he's doing not only to the dog but by giving a false sense of security that all is well to the owners? Have you seen or heard some of the nonsensical things he exposes ... and it has nothing to do with a language/accent barrier so don't go there, I work with a ton of foreign nationals from countries with worse language barriers and have no trouble understanding them. 

far more than the few vocal critics (people who view themselves as his competitors) who dislike him and claim he is oh so dangerous.

~~I'm not a competitor of his, now nor never! : ) And as far as vocal critics, I would have to say you must only hang out with the supporters and not vice versa because if you did, you'd see there are a ton of people who do not support/like him.

Also, how many of you have actually tried any of his techniques and wound up with the doom and gloom predicted and disastrous results. 

~~I would never do any of his techniques with my dogs or any other dogs. However, I used to do some of the alpha roll and other correction based methods he uses many years ago prior to changing from vet med to animal behavior as an adult returning to college.

There is a lot of talking coming from people who don't even watch his shows and yet denounce methods they themselves have never tried... I believe they're too busy running their mouths claiming to know it all to actually stop to pay careful attention and learn something. 

~~Hmm. I am not one that ever stops learning, attending classes, workshops, etc. I went back to college as an adult to become a veterinarian after already obtaining a degree in another area, while in vet school, I realized the need for truly educated people in animal behavior in the animal world (something that veterinarians get very little of at most schools though it's improving). I do watch every show of his and make notes of what exactly what I'm sure to see at the behavior clinic. As a matter of fact, we generally have 'cesar' sessions with the vet students where we watch, talk, stop the tape, etc. and discuss what is being done. It is very educational and I can actually say, that after this sort of discussion group, anyone who thought he was a miracle worker (ala the power of editing and tv!) all begin to see exactly what it is he's doing. the first thing we do is watch the show without sound and I mean really, really watch the show. That alone brings a whole new meaning to his lack of 'psychology' skills.

I will end by saying this, there are many things that work when training dogs/people/animals... it doesn't mean they are behaviorially healthy or that they are right. So just because something 'works' doesn't mean that they are 'cured' or that they are healthy (mentally or physically). 

I do believe dogs need exercise (not to the point of heat exhaustion or dying, however), I do think dogs need to be allowed to be 'dogs', I do believe that dogs need leadership, I do not think dogs need to be e-collared, kicked, rolled over and 'dominated' and I certainly don't think people need to be treated like idiots. 


.

~~


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

maiapup said:


> We (animal behaviorsts at veterinary teaching universities) are seeing a number of problem cases coming in because people are trying 'cesar' things and making their dogs worse. This same thing happened with the 'Uncle Matty' group.


Are you an animal behaviorist? Glad to have you!!!


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## maiapup

Are you an animal behaviorist?

~~yes, guilty as charged! I worked as the behaviorist for a large non-profit animal shelter for several years temperament testing, conducting public classes/workshops, behavior consultations, (dogs and cats!), etc. but am now working on a collaborative project with the Psychology Department and the Veterinary School on a program for the vet students *and* the public which is a win/win situation for all.


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## monomer

Emma&Tilly said:


> I really, truly have watched quite a few of his shows (they show them regularly on Sky now) and I watch them with an open mind...I really do....some are bearable, most leave me irritable but I can certainly say I do 'understand' what he is saying...it isn't all that mysterious...it is just from a very different viewpoint to my own...I generally disagree with his descriptions of the dogs mental state at different points in his teaching...he will describe what a dog is feeling and the reason why but I often interpret it differently from what I can see. I can take in what he is saying and I can consider it...but so far hasn't filtered into my own philosophy to wards dogs.


But at least you've given him the opportunity to enter into your mind unbiased, right? When I saw my first episode I didn't quite know what to make of the guy or what he was espousing exactly. Between his accent, broken English, and using his own version of vocabulary that he seems to have invented on his own to try and put forth his own philosophies that were born from his actual experiences and not influenced by any classes in human psychology or animal training, this guy at first came across as too simplistic and his concepts so basic. However by the 3 and 4 shows I began to sense that there was something much greater this short little Mexican was trying to get across in a language that was not his own... so I began to really pay attention to what he was actually doing and slowly I finally felt rewarded as I was beginning to understand the true concepts he was having so much difficulty getting across in our English. He began to make more sense to me than all the 30+ books on dog training, dog behavior, and dog psychology I had read over the previous 20-years... and that I tried to put into practice with quite a number of embarassing failures... of course I just used the same excuses the 'pros' used to explain why some touted method didn't actually work. In the end, today I've come full circle and believe the vast majority of real charlatans today are the degreed "experts" who write all the books. Cesar, in his strange way, has given me a far deeper understanding and an approach that really makes sense to me of looking at dogs and treating them. I'm not at his level yet (doubt I'll ever be), but I am so much better today at handling dogs than I ever was previously... plus I get a lot of practice at the dog park and other places we go where dog-lovers frequent. I deal with other people's dogs... which is often tricky as the owners are usually my problem.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

maiapup said:


> Are you an animal behaviorist?
> 
> ~~yes, guilty as charged! I worked as the behaviorist for a large non-profit animal shelter for several years temperament testing, conducting public classes/workshops, behavior consultations, (dogs and cats!), etc. but am now working on a collaborative project with the Psychology Department and the Veterinary School on a program for the vet students *and* the public which is a win/win situation for all.


Way to go! Do you have any great books you would recommend?


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## tannernoodle

I think he's great with troubled dogs. He sees the problem and knows how to correct it. I think it's really all about the dog and what the issue is. I mean my dog slept on my bed, begged at the table, was spoiled rotten yet he was very well behaved, never stole food, never attacked anyone or showed any aggression towards my toddler...so I think in some sense he's a little stiff on his rules but I think this also is aimed at the stupid people who don't have a clue to pet ownership....KWIM???


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## monomer

maiapup said:


> they all turn into bashing threads by the same small number of posters citing the same inaccuracies due to not actually having watched all his shows... so...
> 
> ~~Okay..it was my first post on Cesar so this above reference is certainly not true. : ) And yes, I watch the show, so that we, at the university veterinary school behavior department are aware of what is going on in the public so that , we, the animal behavior folks (who really ARE psychologists!) can fix all the stuff they've done to their dogs as a result of watching him and not paying heed to the warnings posted a bazillion times thoughout the show.
> 
> To all the people knocking Cesar... have you actually ever watched his show with a critical eye looking for the reasons why 80 million viewers tune in and why he has so many supporters?... f
> 
> ~~My question to you would be have you actually watched the show with a critical eye and seen the harm he's doing not only to the dog but by giving a false sense of security that all is well to the owners? Have you seen or heard some of the nonsensical things he exposes ... and it has nothing to do with a language/accent barrier so don't go there, I work with a ton of foreign nationals from countries with worse language barriers and have no trouble understanding them.
> 
> far more than the few vocal critics (people who view themselves as his competitors) who dislike him and claim he is oh so dangerous.
> 
> ~~I'm not a competitor of his, now nor never! : ) And as far as vocal critics, I would have to say you must only hang out with the supporters and not vice versa because if you did, you'd see there are a ton of people who do not support/like him.
> 
> Also, how many of you have actually tried any of his techniques and wound up with the doom and gloom predicted and disastrous results.
> 
> ~~I would never do any of his techniques with my dogs or any other dogs. However, I used to do some of the alpha roll and other correction based methods he uses many years ago prior to changing from vet med to animal behavior as an adult returning to college.
> 
> There is a lot of talking coming from people who don't even watch his shows and yet denounce methods they themselves have never tried... I believe they're too busy running their mouths claiming to know it all to actually stop to pay careful attention and learn something.
> 
> ~~Hmm. I am not one that ever stops learning, attending classes, workshops, etc. I went back to college as an adult to become a veterinarian after already obtaining a degree in another area, while in vet school, I realized the need for truly educated people in animal behavior in the animal world (something that veterinarians get very little of at most schools though it's improving). I do watch every show of his and make notes of what exactly what I'm sure to see at the behavior clinic. As a matter of fact, we generally have 'cesar' sessions with the vet students where we watch, talk, stop the tape, etc. and discuss what is being done. It is very educational and I can actually say, that after this sort of discussion group, anyone who thought he was a miracle worker (ala the power of editing and tv!) all begin to see exactly what it is he's doing. the first thing we do is watch the show without sound and I mean really, really watch the show. That alone brings a whole new meaning to his lack of 'psychology' skills.
> 
> I will end by saying this, there are many things that work when training dogs/people/animals... it doesn't mean they are behaviorially healthy or that they are right. So just because something 'works' doesn't mean that they are 'cured' or that they are healthy (mentally or physically).
> 
> I do believe dogs need exercise (not to the point of heat exhaustion or dying, however), I do think dogs need to be allowed to be 'dogs', I do believe that dogs need leadership, I do not think dogs need to be e-collared, kicked, rolled over and 'dominated' and I certainly don't think people need to be treated like idiots.
> 
> 
> .
> 
> ~~


You're just a 'Johnny come lately' but I'm sure you're welcome in the Cesar bashers group. You evidently (according to your above statements) represent the 'professionls' who feel so threaten by this guy and his methods/philosophies. You apparently even find it necessary to hold what could even be construed at some level to be propagada sessions for your students specifically aimed at combating Cesar... it would appear your fears are great. However after 5-years and literally millions of people who are trying to do what Cesar espouses and yet the massive horror of devastation that would be wreak upon the pet population has not happened... not even close. Ford gets more complains on its cars. "Me thinks the lady doth protest too much." I suppose one could draw conclusions about motivations based upon how one is making their livelihood and the effect Cesar has had upon their procedes as well as their egos... I truly believe Cesar represents a threat to those who've made a living doing something another way and its affecting their own personal bottomline and reputations and therefore causes a sort of blindness that does not permit one to see another way.


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## maiapup

represent the 'professionls' who feel so threaten by this guy and his methods/philosophies. 

~~that is so funny! Wow, I had no idea that you were aware of my feelings via email maybe you are the people whisperer, you could probably get a tv show! LOL No, I am not threatened and I don't even make any money with my current project. So no, money has nothing to do with it. 

You apparently even find it necessary to hold what could even be construed at some level to be propagada sessions for your students specifically aimed at combating Cesar... it would appear your fears are great. 

~~Nope, we are realistic, knowledgeable and educated! No propaganda, just facts. But i'm wondering if propaganda is how you and yours operate, if anything you are the one exhibiting threatening and fear behavior! : )

I suppose one could draw conclusions about motivations based upon how one is making their livelihood and the effect Cesar has had upon its procedes as well as egos... 

~~I suppose that would be a good one if indeed I was in it for the money but I'm not.. unlike a certain tv 'star'. : )

I truly believe Cesar represents a threat to those who've made a living doing something another way and its affecting their own personal bottomline and reputations therefore causes a sort of blindness that does not permit one to see another way.

~~Right back at ya! I am extremely confident in my abilities and knowledge. I have no monetary gain or loss in what I do and most importantly I have 20/20 vision not only in my eyes but my mind. I can see however, that you may need an adjustment in yours! : )

You obviously feel you are far superior to others and there's certainly nothing wrong with a healthy ego, I have one myself but there is no need for nastiness posted towards someone you don't even know. Now..if you really knew me, that'd be another thing. But if you really knew me, you wouldn't be responding the way you are. lol

Thanks for those who sent the private posts warning me about this member and what was to come, not saying it would have prevented me from responding anyway, but I can most certainly see exactly what you all indicated is true! : )

Take care and be kind to your dogs!


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## monomer

So you are threaten by me as well... hmmm. I have to go to work now...


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## maiapup

So you are threaten by me as well.

~~Nope, I just choose to pick my battles and you are not going to be one! : )


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## Jersey's Mom

When I was in undergrad I took a class in forensic sciences. My professor was one of 7-10 people in the world who does what he does (forensic entomology) and we had a number of guest speakers who are the leaders in their fields. It was really a great class. Toward the end of the semester we watched a 10 minute segment of CSI (the original... i think it was the only one that existed at the time.) At that time, everyone was touting how "scientifically accurate" this show was... it was a HUGE part of the lure to this show. In that 10 minute segment we picked out enough inaccuracies to fill a sheet of paper front and back. I have not been able to watch that show since... mostly because I annoy anyone else trying to watch it by saying "That's not how that works..." etc. Was that propaganda? No, I don't think it was... and I don't think what this particular vet school is doing is propaganda either... it's broadening one's understanding of concepts by being able to recognize when something is flawed. I find it interesting that someone who is known (around here, anyway... but you could be world-renowned, I don't know... LOL) for putting so much research into everything you say is blindly backing a philosophy that has no basis in scientific reality. These are methods that hit their height of popularity 15-20 years ago, until research and experts willing to devote their lives to understanding these wonderful 4-legged creatures figured out there is a better, more effective way. I know in my own experience that training Jersey now (him being the first dog I've been responsible for on my own) has been a far smoother and more fulfilling experience than when we were trying to train our first golden 15 years ago using methods that in many ways resembled CM's.

Maiapup: You may have done better to keep your profession a secret... this forum as a whole has a thirst for the type of knowledge you can provide, and I expect that you'll probably be one of the first "go-to" people many of us think of now! Prepare to have your brain picked!! LOL

Julie and Jersey


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## monomer

maiapup said:


> So you are threaten by me as well.
> 
> ~~Nope, I just choose to pick my battles and you are not going to be one! : )


I need to get this all out of my system before Friday evening when I will temporarily be turning over a new leaf, so to speak. The reasons will become quite clear on Saturday. So this is my last hurrah in being controversial. But I will be back in good form in a month or two as my assignment on the GRF is to be merely temporary.

maiapup, You being so new and all I'm sure do not realize that this whole Cesar Milan thing (bashers vs fans) is an old, old hot topic issue that has several extensive threads dedicated to it. Many have since given up the 'fight' either way. However, know this, there are forum members who are great supporters of the man and when you bash him, you are like-wise bashing his supporters... many of whom are not so vocal as the bashers. Thus even though you might feel safe bad-mouthing someone who is not a member of the forum, by default you do open yourself up to being like-wise scrutinized by supporters of the man. You put yourself into this hot topic issue by your opinions/postings (and that's all they are, just opinions) and so I can only use the words you yourself have chosen to use to describe yourself and your beliefs. All I did was read your own words and it says what it says... as much as you dislike Cesar (and maybe other more physical trainers?) I too also have likes and dislikes and I dislike many of the so-called (often self-proclaimed) professionals (most especially the positive only trainers who are convinced that they can cure all problem behaviors as well). This forum does and should represent a two-way street regardless of your beliefs. I merely showed my disdain for this group of "professional" people (same as you've done with Cesar... no difference) and it was YOU that put yourself into that group and took offense. So if you feel statements are directed specifically at you that is your own doing, I merely read your words... and used them as a basis for my posting. I might suggest you do a forum search on Cesar Milan and enjoy all those earlier threads as well... some are very entertaining to be sure and you may find enlightening... or not.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I am opened minded and want to hear and read about all methods of training.


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## AmbikaGR

monomer said:


> ....However, know this, there are forum members who are great supporters of the man and when you bash him, you are like-wise bashing his supporters... many of whom are not so vocal as the bashers. Thus even though you might feel safe bad-mouthing someone who is not a member of the forum, by default you do open yourself up to being like-wise scrutinized by supporters of the man. ....


In essence does not everyone who offers an opinion leave themselves open to criticism from one side or the other of every disagreement?
Why should one not feel safe in voicing their opinion about someone, whether a member of this forum or not, as long as it is done in a civil manner?


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

AmbikaGR said:


> In essence does not everyone who offers an opinion leave themselves open to criticism from one side or the other of every disagreement?
> Why should one not feel safe in voicing their opinion about someone, whether a member of this forum or not, as long as it is done in a civil manner?[/quote]
> 
> Thank you...I don't know why this all hit me wrong. I've had a very tough day and for some reason this thread just hit me wrong...


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## Sunshine Goldens

AmbikaGR said:


> In essence does not everyone who offers an opinion leave themselves open to criticism from one side or the other of every disagreement?
> Why should one not feel safe in voicing their opinion about someone, whether a member of this forum or not, as long as it is done in a civil manner?


I agree with you. I feel like the new poster was treated a bit roughly! Let's ease up! We're all entitled to our opinions.


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## Sunshine Goldens

Kimm said:


> AmbikaGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> In essence does not everyone who offers an opinion leave themselves open to criticism from one side or the other of every disagreement?
> Why should one not feel safe in voicing their opinion about someone, whether a member of this forum or not, as long as it is done in a civil manner?[/quote]
> 
> Thank you...I don't know why this all hit me wrong. I've had a very tough day and for some reason this thread just hit me wrong...
> 
> 
> 
> If it hit you "wrong" then it did me as well! And I've had a fine day!
Click to expand...


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## moverking

monomer said:


> This forum does and should represent a two-way street regardless of your beliefs.



Then she should be allowed to have her side of the street! 

You've been a bit brutally passive-aggressive, Monomer, please ease up!


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## monomer

I never complained please re-read. Opinions are perfectly fine and welcomed as this forum would be a very dull place if one could bash without another point of view to provide a counter-balance. However before this turns into politics I will have to say I will be starting my self-imposed retreat from all controversial threads early and immerse myself in preparations for the up-coming changes... so I've got to focus on other things now. Expect the old monomer back in a month (or two).

Oh I just saw the disconnect and understand what was being referred to... the person who is not a member is *CESAR*... I do apologize for the misunderstanding. Bye now.


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## Angel_Kody

shhh...shhh...friends 

...hmmmm...never worked on my dog either. :doh:


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## maiapup

I am not upset with the contrary members 'behavior', though maybe i abrupt (okay and rude!) To be honest, I shouldn't have 'reinforced' his behavior by responding to him, but it was too late. It was clear by the number of private posts I received that he does this somewhat regularly. I'm just glad that I don't feel the hatred and hostility towards those of you that do use Cesar's methods over the more science based ones/ones I use. It's your perogative and your dog. : ) That's your right, just as I assumed, it was my right to present my side and judging from the number of private posts I received, some people were equally happy I presented the information I did. 

In review, I do not think I was 'bashing' Cesar, I presented factual feedback. I did not get emotional (unlike someone else) ; ) 

So, I'm not sure what the deal is here. I would think it would get pretty boring if we were only permitted to post what some agree with, how do we determine that? Do we take a polls? I'm only being a little sarcastic here? Being new, am I not permitted to present other information that goes against certain members? 

In closing, whatever floats your boat, folks. If you can live with yourself when some of these 'training things are done to your dog either by yourself or someone else, more power to you, I can't.

Be well,


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## Emma&Tilly

monomer said:


> You're just a 'Johnny come lately' but I'm sure you're welcome in the Cesar bashers group. You evidently (according to your above statements) represent the 'professionls' who feel so threaten by this guy and his methods/philosophies. You apparently even find it necessary to hold what could even be construed at some level to be propagada sessions for your students specifically aimed at combating Cesar... it would appear your fears are great.


Is this for real...? I was listening to what you were saying before I read this...I am suprised by you Monomer...at least when it was kept about dog training your input was valuable as it IS just a different approach that is at least interesting to read about...but this is getting a bit weird now...


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## Jersey's Mom

It occurs to me that I should probably just stay out of this... but as others have said this conversation has rubbed me the wrong way. You're apologizing for the wrong things Monomer. I don't think many were confused by who the "non-member" you were referring to was. But the condescending tone you've taken with a new member and the attacks on her character and livlihood have left many feeling uncomfortable. Usually you like to prove your point by proving you've done more research than those who disagree with you... and now when you can't realistically claim that against someone, you accuse her of having financial motivations behind "convincing" us that CM uses ineffective methods. Well, I have news... many of us don't need convincing, and those, such as yourself, who do support CM aren't likely to suddenly change their minds based on this discussion. Why shouldn't maiapup be able to voice her opinion, especially with her expertise being in this exact field? Because she's a "Johnny Come Lately?" I think you'll find we will have far fewer people signing up for this forum if this is the attitude we adopt. So now we have everyone continuing to hold their original opinions (which is normal in these debates) and a new member who could be a very valuable resource to those with behavioral issues but who may think twice before the next time she posts her opinion on anything. Who won this fight? No one. But any member who could use maiapup's advice in the future is in danger of losing. 


Julie and Jersey


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## Sunshine Goldens

Jersey's Mom said:


> It occurs to me that I should probably just stay out of this... but as others have said this conversation has rubbed me the wrong way. You're apologizing for the wrong things Monomer. I don't think many were confused by who the "non-member" you were referring to was. But the condescending tone you've taken with a new member and the attacks on her character and livlihood have left many feeling uncomfortable. Usually you like to prove your point by proving you've done more research than those who disagree with you... and now when you can't realistically claim that against someone, you accuse her of having financial motivations behind "convincing" us that CM uses ineffective methods. Well, I have news... many of us don't need convincing, and those, such as yourself, who do support CM aren't likely to suddenly change their minds based on this discussion. Why shouldn't maiapup be able to voice her opinion, especially with her expertise being in this exact field? Because she's a "Johnny Come Lately?" I think you'll find we will have far fewer people signing up for this forum if this is the attitude we adopt. So now we have everyone continuing to hold their original opinions (which is normal in these debates) and a new member who could be a very valuable resource to those with behavioral issues but who may think twice before the next time she posts her opinion on anything. Who won this fight? No one. But any member who could use maiapup's advice in the future is in danger of losing.
> 
> 
> Julie and Jersey


Well said. I hope you are considering being a mod...


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## gold'nchocolate

maiapup: I am wondering which University you are at? I live minutes from Tufts Vet University where Dr. Dodson is in charge of the animal behavior dept. Wouldn't this be a very small world if that is where you go to school?


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## katieanddusty

Well, I think all we need to do know is start a poll about whether or not we should let maiapup stay, and then it'll be solved. There are reasons why you don't hear much from most of the serious competitors, responsible breeders, professional trainers, and now that will include an animal behaviorist ...


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## MaddieMagoo

WOW...this has gotten outta hand...shall I ask a mod. to close it? I jsut glance at a few things and people are starting to argue about wether or not they like Cesar. 

Look at it this way:

An animal behavorist, may disagree/agree with him depending on their research. A pet owner may think that he is WONDERFUL beyond belief! Because that's what there mostly is on the show, pet owners. They are the first time owners that don't know much about 'dog training' or simple house manners. So they are wound up with a problem...and 'go to classes' and that doesn't help. But they don't understand is, is that Cesar isn't 'God in the dog world'...you NEVER know what goes 'behind the scenes' (so to speak). THose films are done over and over...and edited and edited some more. It isn't live...for all we know, he could be slapping the dogs around. Yes...I ONLY agree with his exercise thing...but not how exercise, discipline, affection thingy...YUCK! 

Thats my honest opinion...I USED to thought he was great...but now I've had a different toll on him...


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## TrinitieK

I really wanted to react to this thread. But seeing as where it went, I think I will decline and keep my comments to myself.


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## Packleader

I will respond to this post although I have not read all of the pieces. I have worked with dogs all my life as a trainer and as a groomer. Maybe you haven't noticed but I don't think I have ever seen Cesar work with a Golden Retriever witch I believe can be attributed to their breed and personality. However the dogs he does work with have major behavior issues but he works with the owners and the dogs. So many owners want their dogs "fixed" when they are a part of the problem. He helps them realize this and change their behavior to change the dogs behavior. May I also add that this forum seems to be about rescuing dogs. Many of the dogs he works with are just that rescue dogs that are running out of chances. How can you bash or not like someone who is patient and kind even as a dog wants to take his head off and doesn't give up on the dog so that it can be killed because of its behavior. Like him or not, agree or disagree with him he has done some amazing things with dogs and humans and gone back to show their progress. Did anyone happen to see the ATF dog? How about the almost therapy dog? How about the two Rotties? I wonder if those people who don't like how he does things could stay half as calm as he does with some of these dogs and have a quarter of the results? Just my two cents worth because I believe every dog deserves a chance.


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## Flubber

I have been lurking in this forum for some time, as it is helpful to pick up tips and other helpful advice. The swirling maelstrom of idiocy in this thread, however, has compelled me to add my bit of rubbish to the heap. 

I have seen the Dog Whisperer show, and have heard the ongoing debate regarding Cesar Millan. It's TV, so given that there is some dramatic license taken in the effects of his interventions. 

All that stuff aside, I think Cesar Millan has succeeded where the rest of the dog behaviorists, psychologists, therapists, be they real or perceived, have failed.

Firstly, he has shown the world to see things through a dog'e eyes. Second, he has a simple, compelling philosophy that anyone can grasp. By focusing on people getting their dog regular excercise, he has done more for dog health on the continent than Doctor Ballard. Moreover, I really like that he can be firm and reiterate that a dog is a dog, not a substitute for children, or somewhere to direct your lovesickness or own real-life relationship inadequacies. It's a dog. A member of the family. He wants it, and you, to be happy. I did do some reading when my golden was a puppy, notably Ian Dunbar's book (name eludes me now), which had some great tips but generally I found his outlook to be a bit naive, as if all dogs loved Kongs and kennels. If they don't, you're screwed. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't watch the show religiously, and a lot of it I can dismiss, but it is accomplishing good things for both dogs and owners that no one has. 

The internet is full of Cesar bashing, most of it thinly-veiled jealousy. Seriously, if you are a dog behaviorist, therapist, author, manufacturer of dog disciple products, a trainer, etc. what is to like about Cesar? He represents the man who has chewed up 75% of the market for dog training products, be it books, DVDs, whatever. The rest of the market is left to fight for the crumbs like rabid, food aggressive wolverines. Of course they are going to attack him, they are fighting to retain their fast-shrinking share of a big business.

As for the rest of the haters, I suspect they are "pros" who eat a lot of re-heated soup alone and wonder why they never had the commercial vision or savvy to create the world's most popular dog behavior brand. If there is one certainty in life, it is this: there will always be people greater than you. Get over it.


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## AmbikaGR

Flubber said:


> As for the rest of the haters, I suspect they are "pros" who eat a lot of re-heated soup alone and wonder why they never had the commercial vision or savvy to create the world's most popular dog behavior brand. If there is one certainty in life, it is this: there will always be people greater than you. Get over it.


WOW!!! Not sure where "hate" came into this but if that is because someone asked if people "agree with him or not" and some decided they did not agree with him that is really taking a leap. If everyone I disagreed with meant I "hated" them then I would probably hate everyone I have ever known as there is no one I can think of that I agreed with on everything. So for the record I do not "hate" Cesar Milan nor do I agree with his methods. 
As for Cesar's success I believe it is due more to the fact he is "good" TV such as Jerry Springer, Dr. Phil and all the "reality" shows so popular today. There is another dog behaviorist who for a short time had a TV show. But he was what real life is and not the "reality" that folks are drawn to on TV. His name is Ian Dunbar and he has done extensive scientific researh in the field of animal behavior. He actually attended a Veterinarian College and has a PHD in animal behavior. It is a shame the public needs all the chest thumping, in your face antics to take notice and it is even more tragic for the animals.

And "welcome" to the forum where it is encouraged to express one's opinion, even if it is not the popular one.


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## FlyingQuizini

_*The internet is full of Cesar bashing, most of it thinly-veiled jealousy. Seriously, if you are a dog behaviorist, therapist, author, manufacturer of dog disciple products, a trainer, etc. what is to like about Cesar? He represents the man who has chewed up 75% of the market for dog training products, be it books, DVDs, whatever. The rest of the market is left to fight for the crumbs like rabid, food aggressive wolverines. Of course they are going to attack him, they are fighting to retain their fast-shrinking share of a big business.*_

Speaking as a trainer, I can say that my dislike of the majority of CM's methods has nothing to do with diminishing clientele of my own. Quite the opposite, as thankfully, I have more business than I know what to do with. Included in that business, are often dogs with owners who have tried CM's methods, only to report that not only did it not help, it seemed to make things worse.

I think I can safely say that it's the threat of his ego-based, dominance-heavy methods making problems WORSE that is the root of the uproar among the science-based, reward trainers.

And frankly, the only reason one of the science-based trainers hasn't been able to create a hit show is that true behavior modification takes time and it's not nearly as "sexy" as watching somebody come in and appear to fix problems like magic with a "hand jab" and some circular dog-psychology babble. Creating new associations takes time. CM shuts behavior down, often by shutting the animal down. Correction-based training addresses symptoms of behavior and rarely addresses the cause. And I totally understand that the majority of people who watch TDW don't *see* the signs of stress that the dogs exhibit nor do they see that learned helplessness or simply shutting down due to stress is NOT the same thing as truly modifying behavior for the long haul. If you aren't trained to see it, it's very easy to look at CM and TDW show and think you've just witnessed a miracle. But, IMO, rarely is that the case. Yes, *sometimes* correction-based training will "solve" a problem by supressing the aggression... but "supress" is the key word... and then it becomes a crap shoot as to whether or not the behavior will rear it's ugly head in the future. And if it does, it's now the original problem that's been supercharged with the baggage of corrections attached to it.

Bottom line: There's more than one way to train a dog. I've always said that yes, I agree that CM makes *some* valid points and that at least his show is raising awareness of the need to train dogs. However, I do strongly disagree with many of his methods.


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## Ardeagold

> what is to like about Cesar? He represents the man who has chewed up 75% of the market for dog training products, be it books, DVDs, whatever. The rest of the market is left to fight for the crumbs like rabid, food aggressive wolverines. Of course they are going to attack him, they are fighting to retain their fast-shrinking share of a big business.


I'm NOT a trainer, but I have lots of dogs. Maybe that counts for something.

Anyway.....I don't agree that Cesar has locked up the training methods and the whole world is bowing at his feet. Nor do I believe that breed-specific trainers are jealous, nor are they being ignored because of his current popularity.

Each breed is designed to do something specific, and I've found that if you train each dog based on breed-specific methods, you'll have much more success.

Training puppies for routine obedience is pretty cut and dried. But still..there are things that work with Goldens, that don't work with Newfs and vice versa. After the pup learns to sit, stay and walk on lead.....then what do you do with the maniacal 8 month old who's ripping up your sofa, eating your remote, learning how to open your refrigerator, etc? Walk them? How many miles a day before breakfast? Yeah sure....people won't DO that!

A sporting dog's job is to "work" in the field (or water). Walking a mile or ten isn't doing that, and I don't believe that's enough for a Golden. They need a job...yes. But they really NEED to retrieve, on land and in the water. THAT's what makes them happy and keeps their mind and body healthy, and BUSY. Ceasar doesn't address the breed-specific needs.

So where do people who want to know how to train their breed go? To the trainers/behaviorists who have worked with that breed (or group) for a LONG time. Or that's where owners SHOULD go. 

I know that Jackie Mertens has a huge following as a trainer of retrievers. From puppyhood up. She'd be a great place to start learning all about the needs of your retriever. Caesar doesn't address the specific needs of retrievers.

Judi Adler is the place to start with Newfs. They're water rescue dogs....and carting dogs. Caesar doesn't address this either.

I'm sure that EVERY breed has a renowned trainer. Those are the trainers who can teach the owner the most, IMO.

So, even tho Caesar does have a way with dogs, I don't believe that his way is often relevant to the unique qualities of each breed. 

The "one size fits all" method that he portrays, just isn't realistic, nor is it necessarily "best" for the dog, or the owner.


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## Chelsea(NL)

AmbikaGR said:


> WOW!!! Not sure where "hate" came into this but if that is because someone asked if people "agree with him or not" and some decided they did not agree with him that is really taking a leap. If everyone I disagreed with meant I "hated" them then I would probably hate everyone I have ever known as there is no one I can think of that I agreed with on everything. So for the record I do not "hate" Cesar Milan nor do I agree with his methods.
> As for Cesar's success I believe it is due more to the fact he is "good" TV such as Jerry Springer, Dr. Phil and all the "reality" shows so popular today. There is another dog behaviorist who for a short time had a TV show. But he was what real life is and not the "reality" that folks are drawn to on TV. His name is Ian Dunbar and he has done extensive scientific researh in the field of animal behavior. He actually attended a Veterinarian College and has a PHD in animal behavior. It is a shame the public needs all the chest thumping, in your face antics to take notice and it is even more tragic for the animals.
> 
> And "welcome" to the forum where it is encouraged to express one's opinion, even if it is not the popular one.


You make some good points.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

AmbikaGR said:


> WOW!!! If everyone I disagreed with meant I "hated" them then I would probably hate everyone I have ever known as there is no one I can think of that I agreed with on everything.


I'd be divorced!


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## biscuit08

Wow, I can't believe this topic is still going . You either like him or you don't. EACH TO THEIR OWN! AGREE TO DISAGREE!


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## gold'nchocolate

I really enjoy watching his shows and I've even used some of his training tips--"no talk, no touch, no eye contact" worked wonders with Biscuit jumping on guests, for instance. Last night, on his show, I did see something that disturbed me, though. There was an Alaskan Malamute who would get very aggressive 'on leash' whenever he saw a dog he didn't like and would turn his anger on the person holding the leash, making it almost impossible to walk him. When Cesar took the dog's leash, the dog did a number on his arm and shirt so Cesar took the leather leash and looped it like a choke chain around the upper part of the dog's neck. Then when the dog tried to attack his arm, Cesar would pull upwards with the leash but I noticed that the part that was around the dog's neck wasn't releasing the way it should so that the dog was actually getting choked. You could see this by the way the dog was trying to get a breath between attacks and also 'hacking'. 

I watched this episode twice and it's really noticable. This dog was a real "red zone dog" but I didn't like to see this animal getting choked until it layed down on it's side and I saw him loosen the part which was around the neck. Did anyone else see last night's show? The second part of the show was very funny--it involved 2 hyper golden retrievers and it was the golden's dog walker that called Cesar in for help. They were beautiful dogs--Riley and Jake were their names.


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## biscuit08

gold'nchocolate said:


> I really enjoy watching his shows and I've even used some of his training tips--"no talk, no touch, no eye contact" worked wonders with Biscuit jumping on guests, for instance. Last night, on his show, I did see something that disturbed me, though. There was an Alaskan Malamute who would get very aggressive 'on leash' whenever he saw a dog he didn't like and would turn his anger on the person holding the leash, making it almost impossible to walk him. When Cesar took the dog's leash, the dog did a number on his arm and shirt so Cesar took the leather leash and looped it like a choke chain around the upper part of the dog's neck. Then when the dog tried to attack his arm, Cesar would pull upwards with the leash but I noticed that the part that was around the dog's neck wasn't releasing the way it should so that the dog was actually getting choked. You could see this by the way the dog was trying to get a breath between attacks and also 'hacking'.
> 
> I watched this episode twice and it's really noticable. This dog was a real "red zone dog" but I didn't like to see this animal getting choked until it layed down on it's side and I saw him loosen the part which was around the neck. Did anyone else see last night's show? The second part of the show was very funny--it involved 2 hyper golden retrievers and it was the golden's dog walker that called Cesar in for help. They were beautiful dogs--Riley and Jake were their names.


I was laughing when he was working with the 2 golden retrievers. especially when he was walking Jake! lol


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## Jazzys Mom

Kimm said:


> I'd be divorced!


Yep, me, a lonnnnnng time ago!

This discussion has really taken a nasty turn! Do you think that disagreeing on a TV show is a reason to bash each other?

I have stated earlier that I actually like Cesar and SOME of his training methods. You have to remember that he is working with what he calls RED ZONE dogs - dogs that would most likely be put down if he wasn't working with them. I am reasonably sure that there isn't a dog on this forum like that.

I think his suggestion of walking a dog daily to relieve some of the pent up energy is great! When I walk my dogs they listen better as they aren't so excitable, the pent up energy is spent on the walk.

I think Cesar would be the first to tell you that you *SHOULDN'T *try his methods of dealing with a red zone, biting machine. He even has that disclaimer on his shows and his website.

No one is going to like his, or any other trainers methods completely 100% so just take what you can from him and other trainers, put it together to suit you and your dogs and go your merry way!

Jazzys Mom


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## Jen

My opinion?
If it works for your dog, then great!
If it doesn't, then move onto something else.
If you like him, watch him.
If you don't turn the channel...
It really is that simple.


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## Ljilly28

Remember that the show is edited and for all those shows that 'appeared' to be solved by magic, many of the dogs were not 'cured' and continued to have problems. Some were euthanized and really important to note is that some dogs have been killed while at the dog "psychology" center (and I'm not talking about the lab that was killed while on the treadmill), these were dogs killed by the other dogs in the 'calm, submissive' pack.[/QUOTE]

Is that really true? I researched for a while, but couldnt find the back stories. I am interested in reading about dogs killed at the center. Do you have a link? Thanks


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## Ljilly28

Ardeagold said:


> I'm NOT a trainer, but I have lots of dogs.
> I know that Jackie Mertens has a huge following as a trainer of retrievers. From puppyhood up. She'd be a great place to start learning all about the needs of your retriever. Caesar doesn't address the specific needs of retrievers.



When we brought Tango home from Jackie Mertens, we received not only a huge, detailed puppy packet about her style of golden and their likely challenges & strengths and a training video she did herself, but also lifelong training.behavior support if needed. She specifically says to reach out immediately to to her if a problem even starts, not to wait until it has developed. She is very proactive. Tango , though, is an easy, eager pup who learns fast, so I havent needed the support systems- but it is nice to know they are there.


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## Debles

That is great Ljilly! I wish my breeder was like that especially when Gunner's dog aggression started and his storm anxiety.


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## Eupher

chessergang said:


> I am new to this forum and this debate caught my eye cause I watch the show a lot and for the most part like it, but I don't agree with everything he says. One thing I have noticed though is this ---
> He NEVER gets called in about out of control Golden's.....


This particular post goes back a ways in this thread and I had wanted to read the entire thread before commenting, but I feel compelled to address this one.

About a month ago, I saw an episode with CM in which he had not just one, but two goldens, that were out of control.

They weren't aggressive, they weren't bullying, they weren't fearful, and they weren't dominating.

These goldens were HYPER!

And they successfully wore Cesar OUT! That particular episode clearly showed a tired, distraught Cesar. He flat-out stated that the dogs wore him out. He did NOT fix them as he had hoped to, and made no bones about that. This particular episode was not the classic CM "Here I come to save the day, you, AND your dog". Did you see that episode? If not, I encourage you to find it and watch it. This one was unlike any I had ever seen before. 

Say what you will about Cesar. Is he dominating? Yup. Look at the culture from which he comes. As an illegal who came over the border in the early 90's with nothing more than $100 in his pocket (most of which he gave to a taxi driver) and not a shred of English in his vocabulary, he came from the furthest parts of Mexico where it most definitely is a patriarchal society.

He is a smaller man. Anybody remember the term "The Napoleon Complex"? Cesar suffers from that too. 

Is he a sexist? At heart, yes, until Ilusion pretty much ran his butt up a flagpole and convinced him that while that crap works in Mexico, it ****** sure doesn't work in southern California. He admits that their marriage just about came unglued because of his egotism and arrogance. So he has a new lease on life with respect for women. Don't believe it? Read what he's written on this issue.

Speaking of reading, how many of you who are bashing him have read his books? ALL of the book, and not just the parts you wanted to read?

How many of you understand his fundamental precept - which, you might be surprised, is NOT "exercise, discipline, affection, in that order"?

His fundamental precept is ENERGY.

Cesar says, and I wholly agree, that dogs completely understand the energy that we project. While we can control our energy to some degree, dogs are incredibly animalistic (wow! now THERE'S a concept! ) and can sense when we ourselves are fearful, unconfident, incapable, uncertain. This is when the dog feels it's best for the sake of the pack to step in and assume leadership, and that this is especially true for the more strident breeds.

Cesar got his start in the early 90's by illustrating to some very well-to-do clients (Will Smith and his wife Jada Pinkett Smith being the two that he is probably most indebted to, since Jada saw to it that Cesar got some badly needed English lessons) that he can address behavioral problems in dogs.

He didn't get his start by fixing well-adjusted dogs that slipped once in a while and growled when the owner reached down for the food dish and he didn't get his reputation by getting his teeth fixed in true Hollyweird fashion and grease up his spiked hair.

He took dogs that were out of control and fixed them, while taking the time to show his two-legged clients how they contributed to the dog's problems to begin with.

When a dog turns aggressive and bites, the worst thing a person can do is run and hide. That feeds the aggression.

While I don't pretend to be a dog expert (many of you clearly are, and I respect most opinons I've read thus far), I am most comfortable around parrots. There are those who will say, "but we're talking about DOGS here and not PARROTS."

To that, I flat-out state "Bull."

I can tell you with absolute certainty that there is a parallel between dogs and parrots. When a parrot bites me, the worst thing I can do is run and hide. That act rewards the parrot's aggression and, in turn, feeds the parrot's fear, which is the biggest element within the bird. It's been a long time since I've been bitten by a dog, but when I was, it was a territorial/testosterone issue that prompted it. When I addressed the attack, the biting dog ran away.

Either way, parrot or dog, they both are animals. They both have methodologies that they try in order to get what they want. Success or failure in them getting what they want is what motivates them one way or the other.

For a biting dog, failure to turn the human away teaches the dog that it cannot intimidate the human. When the human addresses the biting dog that illustrates to the dog and the rest of the pack that the human is in control. As Cesar clearly shows - even while sometimes getting bit - this "illustration of control" is done in a calm, assertive state. Projection of energy is more powerful than any other element, even beyond the dog's well developed reward-based system.

For a biting parrot, failure to turn the human away teaches the bird that its aggression cannot intimidate the human.

If you think a parrot can't leave a nasty wound every bit as painful and dangerous as a dog's bite can be, well, I guess you've never been bit by a parrot.

I believe that in both cases, parrot or dog, the animal is actually relieved that there is a force out there upon which it can rely. It instinctively knows and respects humans, but can quickly lose that respect if the human does not assert itself.

So I think Cesar is on the right track.

In the parrot world, there is the same sort of behaviorist as CM. His name is Ken Globus and he is known, oddly enough, as "The Bird Whisperer."

Ken's and Cesar's techniques are markedly similar, respecting the very different species of animals that they both handle.

The similarities in their approach addresses the fact that both parrot and dog are _animals_.

www.thebirdwhisperer.com


----------



## T&T

Yeap ... it's all about energy.
If they can "detect" an epileptic seizure 15-20 minutes before it strikes ... imagine what they're detecting on a daily basis.


----------



## lovethemgoldens

I only agree with him for what he does on the shows with dogs who have serious problems. I would not train a puppy the way he would. 

I don't really agree with him about ANYTHING, but I agree with him on EVERYTHING...
Does that make sense? What I mean is, his opinion doesn't really "matter" to me... Oh, I just don't know how to put it...


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## Ljilly28

I had to turn off the show where he made a special trailer with a treadmill and sound/light effects to flood the PTSD yellow lab with gunfire. Couldnt watch.


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## EvanG

Even though he makes this point, himself, it's often missed. Caesar is not a professed *trainer*. He's a *behaviorist*. They aren't specifically the same things.

His show is amusing, but repetitive. Each episode is a new dog and a new family, but the same story; the inmate is running the assylum. He has the same real challenge each time; change the behavior of the human in the equation.

Good luck with that!:wavey:

EvanG


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## FlyingQuizini

EvanG said:


> Even though he makes this point, himself, it's often missed. Caesar is not a professed *trainer*. He's a *behaviorist*. They aren't specifically the same things.
> 
> His show is amusing, but repetitive. Each episode is a new dog and a new family, but the same story; the inmate is running the assylum. He has the same real challenge each time; change the behavior of the human in the equation.
> 
> Good luck with that!:wavey:
> 
> EvanG



Professionally, he's not literally a behaviorist. He may be calling himself a behaviorsit because he's looking at behavior, but that's like saying that just because I often ride a bike, I'm a cyclist. Do I ride a bike? Sure. But am I cyclist in the Lance Armstrong sort of way? No. There are actual credentialed behaviorists of different levels in the animal behavior field and CM is not one of them. So he really is a *trainer*. Trainers emphasize behavior - mostly primate - all the time.


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## nixietink

I never realized how mean little dogs were until watching this show, lol. JUST KIDDING.


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## EvanG

FlyingQuizini said:


> ...but that's like saying that just because I often ride a bike, I'm a cyclist. Do I ride a bike? Sure. But am I cyclist in the Lance Armstrong sort of way? No.


Nor is anyone else. There is Lanse Armstrong, and then there are all other cyclists. One thing I've never heard Millan do is to compare himself with anyone else.


FlyingQuizini said:


> There are actual credentialed behaviorists of different levels in the animal behavior field and CM is not one of them. So he really is a *trainer*. Trainers emphasize behavior - mostly primate - all the time.


Even human behaviorists are not exact scientists, with or without credentials. Millan labeled himself a behaviorist. Wikipedia lists him as a professional dog trainer, although he states that he "rehabilitates dogs, trains people". Competent professional trainers largely do the same.

Being a former pro trainer of dogs, I became focused on training the whole dog. I didn't merely shape outward behavior through corporal punishment. But my approach is markedly different than Millan's. That is because the focus of my work was not going door to door with a camera crew to settle some out of control dog down, and teach the humans inside to take charge of their homes. That's his schtick. 

Not a fan, but interested observer regards,

EvanG


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## jak_sak

IMO, Cesar Milan is like god! He literally speaks to the dogs and they get it. I've read his books from cover to cover and agree with everything he said. For people who say his behavior is to be dominant over dogs, you should really watch his DVD where he talks about "training with treats." He reinforces positive behavior with treats and ignores negative behavior.

He truly is a dog behavior expert. There are a lot of trainers in here and I am sure they are all "jealous" of him and why not - look at him - he came with absolutely nothing to this country and now he is a multi-millionaire and a true celebrity. Of course people who are not hardworking as him or as successful as him will definitely feel jealous. Thats OK! All I am saying to the trainers in here is instead of being jealous, try to improve your lives and your methods to be successful in life. He rehabilitates "red zone" dogs. I am sure many of the so called trainers in here will pee in their pants if they have to face a red zone GSD or Pitbull. 


Being someone who has a Masters in Engineering, I think I have the necessary qualification to say that a "degree" is not everything. I have literally people who haven't gone to college kick my rear - but I accept that and make myself a better person by learning from it. For people who say "CM doesn't have a degree in animal psychology, he is not qualified, blah blah", I say "********" and you know it too!


I agree with Eupher - his main emphasis is "Energy." He says your energy needs to be calm and a level above or equal to your dog's. And people who think he is being dominant to the dogs, puhleeeaseeee grow up!! Dogs are not humans. Stop humanizing them. They are not your "babies", they are your dogs. They are your pets, but that's it. For people who let their dogs into their beds, yuck!! My dog is never allowed on top of the couch, beds etc. They are not HUMANS. So Cesar is right that we humans humanize dogs and then use them to satisfy our emotions and feed our insecurities.


Cheers..
-Ji


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## Jersey's Mom

Why is it that the majority of those that support CM feel the need to personally attack those who don't agree with his methods? Perhaps because there's no scientific basis to his methods for them to stand on. While the professional trainers and animal behaviorists on this site back their arguments with research, experience, and knowledge gained from their studies it seems the best argument some can come back with is to accuse them of professional jealousy. Unfortunately that doesn't prove your stance any more than CM's random claim of being an animal behavior expert actually makes him one. Maybe we can tone down the personal attacks and discuss the merits here... or perhaps finally let this thread die. Either way....

Julie and Jersey

PS~ Ji, you know I love ya... and love debating with you even more. It just so happened you were the latest one to say something while I had a free moment to respond. It's nothing personal, just a general observation based on pages and pages of this scenario playing itself out.


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## twogoldenboys

Is there one way to raise a child? Of coarse not. Most of us own Golden Retrievers, who, for the most part, don't have aggressive behavioral problems. I've picked up a tip or two from CM and it actually worked on my boy. For me, his show is entertainment and if I can learn a thing or two...


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## jak_sak

Jersey's Mom said:


> Why is it that the majority of those that support CM feel the need to personally attack those who don't agree with his methods? Perhaps because there's no scientific basis to his methods for them to stand on. While the professional trainers and animal behaviorists on this site back their arguments with research, experience, and knowledge gained from their studies it seems the best argument some can come back with is to accuse them of professional jealousy. Unfortunately that doesn't prove your stance any more than CM's random claim of being an animal behavior expert actually makes him one. Maybe we can tone down the personal attacks and discuss the merits here... or perhaps finally let this thread die. Either way....
> 
> Julie and Jersey
> 
> PS~ Ji, you know I love ya... and love debating with you even more. It just so happened you were the latest one to say something while I had a free moment to respond. It's nothing personal, just a general observation based on pages and pages of this scenario playing itself out.



Awww Julie, love ya too. Ans this post has nothing to do with your reply Julie - I swear! 

But.....

Here are a few questions for all the "Professional" trainers with PHD and other degrees....

1. If you so called professionals are very successful in your profession and better than Cesar Milan, how come you are not "famous?"

2. If you so called professional trainers can solve all dog behavior problems without dominance (which actually Cesar is not - He is being a leader with strict discipline), how come many many red zone dogs are being put down.

3. How many of you professional trainers here have successfully rehabilitated red zone dogs? I bet some of you would pee in your pants handling red zone dogs. 

4. In the context of all this, having a "degree" in animal psychology or anything doesn't mean squat. Just because you have a degree and are a professional certified trainer doesn't make you a good trainer, but successful results do make you a good trainer. And if you are successful, then obviously more people refer you to their friends and you would be famous by now.

You can do research about a dog. You can be a scientist. You can be a 4 pointer in your PHD. I don't care. Unless some of the trainers in here can back their claim with "proof of their success" in terms of how many red zone dogs they have rehabilitated, I don't think they should bash someone who in my opinion is a "legend". Cesar is a godsend for troubled dogs. I salute you Sir Cesar Milan!

Is he a professional trainer? No. But he is **** better than any of them. IMHO professional trainers are just that - Professionals on paper!


Stop being hateful of someone who is doing good. Try to see why he/she is successful and see what you can do to improve your life.


Cheers..
-Ji

PS: I HAD to defend Sir Cesar Milan obviously because he is not a member of this forum.


----------



## Argos' Mom

I haven't read all 13 pages of this thread, but I'm just giving my 2 cents. I'm not trying to tell anyone they're wrong or disagree. 

I agree with him to some extent. A while back, Argos started having some very mild aggression issues. He wasn't attacking people or anything like that and honestly is more of a baby than anything. For one, Argos is my baby so I think in some ways, he was a little jealous/protective. The biggest issue was a little growling at one of the kids. Taylor moves really fast and doesn't accept that regardless of what the animal is doing, it may not want his attention at that moment. Taylor had to learn that if Argos was sleeping or not feeling well that he needed to wait until Argos wanted his attention. Taylor can be a little hyper at times and it scares my mother in laws dogs and cats. I also was not walking Argos near as much as I should. He's a lazy, 108 lb dog and I had a hard time with him not pulling me. I was inconsistent with disciplining him because he's my baby. With a small amount of work, Argos has been great.

On the other hand, I refuse to completely think of Argos as an animal. Cesar doesn't think as animals as a member of the family or as a fur kid. I believe he can be a dog and still be my baby. Just like with children, there is no one right way to raise and discipline them. I think he is somewhat harsh with some of his ideas, but most of his dogs are extreme cases and require extreme measures. 

All in all, it's up to the pet owner to figure out and decide what is the best way to train your Golden. I don't believe there will ever be any one totally right or totally wrong way.


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## Debles

I don't watch him and don't much care what he says. : )


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## ScottieNBaileysMom

CM has helped us be more successful with our dogs. Watching his show helped give us direction in the sense that it makes me pay attention to how I'm projecting myself to the dog. We have used his techniques with our sheltie and we have our first well behaved dog!! I can take Scottie on a walk and its enjoyable... I can tell him to slow down, lets go, sit, whatever... and feel like he's in tune with me. I never had that with a dog before because before, when I would try to train a dog, I'd get frustrated and not know what to do after that.

As with anything you have to take the good and leave what you will. We aren't devout CM followers but his techniques have helped us in training our dog.


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## nixietink

I don't follow all of Cesar's tactics. I agree that his methods are fear-based, and don't really agree with them.

BUT, I do agree with his overall philosophy. I think all dogs need a pack leader, exercise, and boundaries to be balanced.


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## Freddy'sMum

Well I have only watched it once (snowflake episode) and I would guess why 80 million viewers tune in is because it is absolutely hilarious 

I mean really 

Have you noticed that he often puts the boot in? No wonder the dog starts behaving itself and my goodness - that whole rollerbladding with the dogs pulling him thing is just the cheesiest thing on the planet. Me and my friends laughed all the way through this programme. - I can't wait to catch the next episode! 

He is either a clever charlatan (with a good TV crew) or an alien life form! 
Wouldn't trust his methods - Great TV though


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## lgnutah

I don't feel CM is creating fear in the dogs I've seen him work with on TV. It looks more like he is telling the dogs he isn't going to accept any nonsense from them... It's the same "aura" parents need to establish with their kids. 
It's about expectations.


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## chopsuey

I only watched his show to learn more about dogs and how to train them. each method i took form his show i adapted for me. the whole SHH thing is just stupid, he could have used any verbal command he wanted. Like said above i believe hes not aggressive,, just he wont take **** from a dog and will put it in its place. His methods are questionable like anyones but face it, hes out to make money and does a dam good job at raising his dogs and the m0000ney making factor


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## Rainnskittles

Well..I'll take a bullet here, I enjoy the show and have incorporated some of his techniques with Abbey. I agree with Thor's Mom that the owners he helps are the real problem. Did you see the lady named Kitten with the pink house and matching pink dog... yikes. Anyway, we also share the same mindset about control.. Abbey, at 5 months, still sleeps in her crate, has never been on furniture, goes out the door after we do and has never had an accident in the house. Yet, she's a typical Golden, full of love and wonder, exhuberant to the max and a great, well behaved companion.


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## Ljilly28

Did anyone see last night's new Dog Whisperer? The opening episode, the cattle dog, really gave meaning to why a breed standard is important for the dogs themselves. That poor guy had such poor conformation,that he could hardly use his front legs. His front paws turned out so excessively that he amost walked on his inner ankles at times. I felt sad for the dog, but cant believe someone could bring a baby safely to live with him- caesar or no Ceasar.


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## stan and ollie

Ljilly28 said:


> Did anyone see last night's new Dog Whisperer? The opening episode, the cattle dog, really gave meaning to why a breed standard is important for the dogs themselves. That poor guy had such poor conformation,that he could hardly use his front legs. His front paws turned out so excessively that he amost walked on his inner ankles at times. I felt sad for the dog, but cant believe someone could bring a baby safely to live with him- caesar or no Ceasar.


That was very sad. The dog's feet and legs were just wrong. And the look in his eyes. I felt sorry for the dog and his owners, they seemed to really want to help him, but to bring a baby into that house with that dog is just not going to work. I don't know if I have ever heard Cesar Millan tell an owner to bring their dog to a vet for a compete check up before. That dog's problems were severe.


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## linktrek

I don't think CM is for normal non-issure dogs. It has its place with dogs with bad issues but its a pain in the butt to keep trying to dominate over a dog,never mind a puppy. I think for the normal dog, when the dog learns what NO really means, that's enough dominance. The rest of the time you should be best friends with your dog to build up trust. I tried his method for about two days and I was miserable and so was my dog. I gave the book away to someone who agrees with Cesar.


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## chopsuey

linktrek said:


> I don't think CM is for normal non-issure dogs. It has its place with dogs with bad issues but its a pain in the butt to keep trying to dominate over a dog,never mind a puppy. I think for the normal dog, when the dog learns what NO really means, that's enough dominance. The rest of the time you should be best friends with your dog to build up trust. I tried his method for about two days and I was miserable and so was my dog. I gave the book away to someone who agrees with Cesar.


Heh, i tried to use his methods on my puppy. that crap didnt do ANYTHIN except make it WORSE! my guy thinks everything is a game so you cant really punish him lol


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## Debles

Some goldens are too sensitive for Cesar's way of doing things (I'd say ALL goldens)
If we had tried that with Gunner, he'd be a basket case!
When we say something in a stern voice to Selka (who doesn't care) Gunner thinks we're mad at him and slinks away upset.


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## katieanddusty

Boo thinks the "shh" noise is the most exciting thing in the world. My dad briefly tried to use it to get Boo to drop the ball instead of playing keep-away and it backfired completely (made Boo go roooo and dart away again). I thought that was kind of funny. A lot of agility people use "shhhh" to rev their dog up as the dog is doing weave poles or something.

It seems like a lot of dogs react to the way other dogs are treated. Even if it's someone he's never met, Dusty always gets upset when someone is stern with a dog.


----------



## linktrek

Debles said:


> Some goldens are too sensitive for Cesar's way of doing things (I'd say ALL goldens)
> If we had tried that with Gunner, he'd be a basket case!
> When we say something in a stern voice to Selka (who doesn't care) Gunner thinks we're mad at him and slinks away upset.


 I agree so much with this. Some people forget that goldens don't get mentally mature untill 2 1/2 to 3 years. Until then some goldens don't take anything serious. I think that if a young golden knows what NO really means, that's enough dominance that is needed. I am just a rookie with goldens. Gabriella is my first but I've seen this other young golden' just like mine. Play Play Play!


----------



## chopsuey

has there ever been a golden retriever on his show that needed to be trained/walked etc? i think ive seen 1 or 2 but those were dogs apart of cesars pack!


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## Jersey's Mom

chopsuey said:


> has there ever been a golden retriever on his show that needed to be trained/walked etc? i think ive seen 1 or 2 but those were dogs apart of cesars pack!


There was one not too long ago where he was called in on 2 "hyperactive" goldens (read normal, everyday goldens who weren't getting quite enough exercise). The dog walker was having trouble because they'd jump all over her when she showed up. Cesar found the dogs' energy so "draining" he couldn't even touch the leash and nearly had a breakdown on camera. It was about the funniest thing I've ever seen. The miracle worker, no-dog-is-too-much-for-me machismo went right out the window and he looked like a junkie crashing after a fix and panicking about where he'd find the next one. If he'd had any common sense at all he would have pulled out a tennis ball and played some fetch with them before expecting them to heel for a mile walk (or however far he goes), it really would have been that easy, but somehow that didn't occur to him. 

Julie and Jersey


----------



## chopsuey

HAH anychance you know what season it is? im sure my mom and id would laugh all day at it. and the rest of you


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## Jersey's Mom

I'm about 95% sure it was a new episode this season, so you might have to wait a bit to catch it on DVD, but with it being newer they might tend to rerun it on TV so keep an eye out.


----------



## Debles

It's hilarious to think all of us here at GRF do everyday what the great Cesar couldn't handle without a breakdown!!!


----------



## moverking

Jersey's Mom said:


> it really would have been that easy, but somehow that didn't occur to him. Julie and Jersey


IMO, Cesar wouldn't have thought of that because it would have been giving in to the dog's "will", and thats a Cesar no-no. I think he prefers being the 'allower' of behaviors in his dogs and anything that smells of choice or free thought on the part of the animal, must be controlled. 
I'm really going to have to watch this episode, undone by a Golden, sheesh, lol.


----------



## Rainnskittles

First, if you're good at what you do you should be able to make money at it. If you're great at what you do you should make a lot of money at it. I wouldn't fault him or anyone for making money for being good at something. 

Second, you just can't fake some of the challenges that we've all seen him overcome. They certainly edit the show to get it all into a one hour format but at the end of the day he walks away from very happy and amazed owners.

Third, a certain amount of fear (a/o dominance) is necessary when raising dogs or kids. They rise to the level of our expectations. If you set the bar at straight A's then you get straight A's. Kids/dogs need to know what the rules are, what's acceptable and what isn't. If an average dog is what you expect, an average dog is what you'll get.. same's true with kids. Champion families raise champion kids not through genetics but through expectations. BTW: dominance is not the same a violence..never ever hit.

Fourth, I've read here..."I tried it once".. "I tried it for a few days"... Training our pups is an ongoing job...especially Goldens. Seems like there's been a lot of quitting and blaming being done. Some methods worked (for me) the first try like claiming territory where we eat, claiming a doorway, claiming a treat on a table and Abbey got it the first time. I was amazed. Other methods are still a work in progress but I see improvement all the time. After all, she a Golden pup but I'm the boss and I don't quit.

Fifth, I think point four is the reason there's so much negativity on this forum towards CM... we try once, it doesn't take and we blame him for our failure rather than analyzing what we may have done wrong ourselves.

Sixth, in all cases it's the owners that mess up because they treat the dogs like their over-indulged children. The dogs are out there in limbo looking for guidance. I mean, look at some of these people he's dealt with. If they represent middle America then we're all screwed.

Finally, I'd love to get Abbey to pull me on rollerblades, the man looks fit and the dogs look happy. Unfortunately, I'm old and overweight...either I'd crash and burn or Abbey would die of exhaustion.


----------



## beargroomer

Jersey's Mom said:


> There was one not too long ago where he was called in on 2 "hyperactive" goldens (read normal, everyday goldens who weren't getting quite enough exercise). The dog walker was having trouble because they'd jump all over her when she showed up. Cesar found the dogs' energy so "draining" he couldn't even touch the leash and nearly had a breakdown on camera. It was about the funniest thing I've ever seen. The miracle worker, no-dog-is-too-much-for-me machismo went right out the window and he looked like a junkie crashing after a fix and panicking about where he'd find the next one. If he'd had any common sense at all he would have pulled out a tennis ball and played some fetch with them before expecting them to heel for a mile walk (or however far he goes), it really would have been that easy, but somehow that didn't occur to him.
> 
> Julie and Jersey


i VERY much enjoyed this episode and seeing him sort of fall apart. i felt very smug. lol. didn't he say something like, he'd rather work with a bunch of aggressive dogs than one "hyper" golden/dog? :


----------



## Debles

Rainnskittles said:


> First, if you're good at what you do you should be able to make money at it. If you're great at what you do you should make a lot of money at it. I wouldn't fault him or anyone for making money for being good at something.
> 
> Second, you just can't fake some of the challenges that we've all seen him overcome. They certainly edit the show to get it all into a one hour format but at the end of the day he walks away from very happy and amazed owners.
> 
> Third, a certain amount of fear (a/o dominance) is necessary when raising dogs or kids. They rise to the level of our expectations. If you set the bar at straight A's then you get straight A's. Kids/dogs need to know what the rules are, what's acceptable and what isn't. If an average dog is what you expect, an average dog is what you'll get.. same's true with kids. Champion families raise champion kids not through genetics but through expectations. BTW: dominance is not the same a violence..never ever hit.
> 
> Fourth, I've read here..."I tried it once".. "I tried it for a few days"... Training our pups is an ongoing job...especially Goldens. Seems like there's been a lot of quitting and blaming being done. Some methods worked (for me) the first try like claiming territory where we eat, claiming a doorway, claiming a treat on a table and Abbey got it the first time. I was amazed. Other methods are still a work in progress but I see improvement all the time. After all, she a Golden pup but I'm the boss and I don't quit.
> 
> Fifth, I think point four is the reason there's so much negativity on this forum towards CM... we try once, it doesn't take and we blame him for our failure rather than analyzing what we may have done wrong ourselves.
> 
> Sixth, in all cases it's the owners that mess up because they treat the dogs like their over-indulged children. The dogs are out there in limbo looking for guidance. I mean, look at some of these people he's dealt with. If they represent middle America then we're all screwed.
> 
> Finally, I'd love to get Abbey to pull me on rollerblades, the man looks fit and the dogs look happy. Unfortunately, I'm old and overweight...either I'd crash and burn or Abbey would die of exhaustion.


What he does may work with many dogs but I don't think his hard handed treatment works with most goldens, even hyper ones. Maybe a hard headed field golden but not my two sensitive obedience babies. I wouldn't let him near them. We get along just fine and they aren't over indulged children. They are happy obedient therapy dogs. Everything isn't black and white.


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## Ljilly28

A local training center is sponsoring a talk by Jean Donaldson called Stop Dog Whispering and Speak Up For Your Dog: Debunking the Dominance Myth”. I am definitely going.


----------



## Debles

Bring us back a report!


----------



## FlyingQuizini

Ljilly28 said:


> A local training center is sponsoring a talk by Jean Donaldson called Stop Dog Whispering and Speak Up For Your Dog: Debunking the Dominance Myth”. I am definitely going.


I just borrowed the DVD "Fighting Dominance in a Dog Whispering World". haven't had a chance to watch it yet. I think Donaldson has a new book out, too.


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## LibertyME

Ljilly28 said:


> A local training center is sponsoring a talk by Jean Donaldson called Stop Dog Whispering and Speak Up For Your Dog: Debunking the Dominance Myth”. I am definitely going.


Lucky Duck!
I had to choose between Jean Donaldson or show entry fees  
I look forward to your review!


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## phizzypho

I like Cesar Millan for a few reasons. He believes that exercise and good leadership make a happy dog - as opposed to simply providing the dog with affection. I agree with this and although it may be no secret to good owners, many people out there are not good owners and need to hear this.

As for many traits he refers to as "dominance" and the rest of us ignore, I think this is because he deals specifically with troublesome dogs and so he has had to become very aware of any small sign of dominance. The rest of us can ignore it because our dogs are well mannered. 

In any case, you certainly don't hear about too many golden retrievers on his show!


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## Muddypaws

I like Caesar and we are big fans, the dogs love him. My favorite show is the golden's that beat Caesar and he admits it. I can understand high energy is not easy to redirect sometimes and those goldens were kept outside all the time away from the family. They were so happy to be with people and to get attention no wonder they were crazy.

I do believe his methods work better for nervous, scared, aggressive or dominant dogs. And it seems to me he does more training and education of the handler then the dogs. I know Darby is very soft and any harsh moves or words shuts him down. 

As with all training its really the time, devotion, consistent and positive training you give to your dogs. I know for me when I get frustrated I cannot work with the dogs, time to quit and step back. I only work as long as we "all" are having fun when I am frustrated they get frustrated and that doesn't work.


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## Mssjnnfer

I agree with the exercise being super important. I don't agree with the pinning/dominance crap. My previous vet (I say that because we just switched TODAY) was a big Cesar fan. When we first got Mojo, she would tell us to PIN HIM and HOLD HIM DOWN until he stopped wiggling/crying. She showed us how to throttle him to the ground. She showed us how to pick him up by the collar, with his front feet dangling, and "calm" him down like that. She showed us how to DIG OUR FINGER NAILS into the bottom of his mouth if he mouthed us.

I was ignorant and listened to her. I'm pretty sure we made his food aggression worse by pinning and holding him down. I'll admit we tried it. It NEVER calmed him down, like she said it would. It made him worse.

I feel extremely guilty all the time because of the training tactics we "learned" from her and her Cesar ways.


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## Muddypaws

I don't think that was Caesar's way. I have never seen him pin a dog down for anything other then aggression. I certainly wouldn't do any of the things your vet showed you. And his method of correcting food aggression is "owning" the food and feeding by hand. That doesn't sound right.

I tried to hold Darby down once to get him to calm down.... he outlasted me. He is ADD, he simply CAN'T be still for very long accept in the bath tub. He is such a goof. Kirby on the other hand will fall asleep while grooming, clipping, nail grinding, etc. She can totally relax accept on a walk - then it is Bounce, Bounce, Bounce.


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## Maxs Mom

I am not a huge Cesar fan. However he does emphasize dogs need exercise. Fluffy is not going to a sweet dog if it does not have an outlet for the energy. 

I think in dog training one needs to remember, no two dogs are alike. One method does not work for every dog. Where we trained Belle they specialized in assertive aggressive dogs. Belle was neither, and my not knowing better killed her spirit. I followed their training to the letter and I needed to back off at times and did not. I still like their training, I just know now how to cater it to fit my dogs. They did teach me a LOT about dogs and their behavior.

One thing our trainer was adamant about was no dogs on furniture, that is the humans place not the dog. Well I have always believed the dogs need to learn things like furniture is a privilege not a right. When I heard Cesar say, sure you can let the dog on the furniture but under "your" terms I had to say I agreed with that too. 

There is something to be said to "pack leader" but it is kind of like parenting. You can't over power you children into submission. You have to teach them right from wrong, and boundaries. If they cross a line they must pay the consequences. Whatever you decide consequences are, and you must be consistent. 

Ann


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## Rainnskittles

Both Abbey and I watch the Dog Whisperer and I've incorporated many of his methods in her training. She's very well trained because of a few tricks I learned from his show. First, I claimed the food on the table and claimed all table tops. That only took two showings of it being my food. Now I could put a roast on a low table, leave for a few hours and it would be there when I returned. I also claimed the dining room where we eat and Abbey knows to leave the room at meal time. We didn't allow her on any furniture for her first year but have since switched to a 'by invitation only' scenario. She's allowed one section of the sofa where we put a towel down to keep the fabric clean. She loves being invited up but always waits for the invite. Even if we weren't home she wouldn't consider getting up there on her own. Like most Goldens, she strives to please us and just a sharp word will correct an unwanted behavior. 
I've seen Ceaser 'pin' aggressive dogs but I've never seen him be abusive. Dogs are like kids..hitting doesn't work..patience and hard work does. I believe that bad dogs have bad owners. He does too.


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## Eupher

Ljilly28 said:


> A local training center is sponsoring a talk by Jean Donaldson called Stop Dog Whispering and Speak Up For Your Dog: Debunking the Dominance Myth”. I am definitely going.


Questioning the techniques of Cesar or any other expert in their field is always good - some things can be learned and ideas exchanged.

But having seen this very type of "pushback" in the parrot world, I'm not surprised by it.

Cesar has built his reputation - initially - by dealing with hard-to-control and aggressive dogs. It seems to me that he has had to adopt methods that such dogs recognize as coming from a more powerful force than they.

I don't see this as wrong at all. But others apparently do.

Such is the nature of pet ownership. A lot of emotion comes into play, all of which is human in nature and scope.

YMMV.


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## FlyingQuizini

*Now I could put a roast on a low table, leave for a few hours and it would be there when I returned.*

Wow! I'd love to see that! Any chance you could record it?


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## GoldenFan

Well said Nixietink. I totally agree. I think owners can be the leader or the boss without total domination over their dogs and without instilling fear.


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## Muddypaws

FlyingQuizini said:


> *Now I could put a roast on a low table, leave for a few hours and it would be there when I returned.*
> 
> Wow! I'd love to see that! Any chance you could record it?


I'd like to see that too and mine are very good. I can leave their food soaking on a low shelf and they will not touch it until I feed them. I leave my food on the table or in the living room and with a "leave it" they won't go near it. But a roast beef on a low table.... that kind of temptation I would have trouble ignoring.


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## fostermom

Muddypaws said:


> I'd like to see that too and mine are very good. I can leave their food soaking on a low shelf and they will not touch it until I feed them. I leave my food on the table or in the living room and with a "leave it" they won't go near it. But a roast beef on a low table.... that kind of temptation I would have trouble ignoring.


Heck, my dogs are really well behaved and don't counter surf or snatch food off our plates, but every time I sit down at my desk with food, Danny has to come over to check out what I have. It cracks me up! He doesn't take a lick, but his big old nose is up there snuffling away. Of course, I let him get away with it, obviously. And he only does it to me, so I don't have a problem with his doing it.


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## Retrieverlover

I used to own two of his books... then my black lab got ahold of them and shred them into pieces on day. Guess he does not like Cesar Milan at all 

I prefer the original dog whispererPaul Owens


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## NuttinButGoldens

Ceaser works with some very, very troubled dogs. I think he has been a dogs final chance many times.

Some people compare him with Victoria Stillwell. They are two very different people trying to solve two very different problems.

Ceaser is more of a doggy Psychologist than a trainer as I see it. Victoria is more of a Trainer. As good as she is, I do not think she could handle some of the dogs that Ceaser has to deal with.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Notice how I've avoided the actual question  That's because I'm not qualified to answer it.



MaddieMagoo said:


> Instead of asking this on the other thread about the book...I decided to make my own. I've heard some VERY good viewpoints...but like some of you have stated...he's an idiot. Sorry to break it to some of you who have loved him and adore him.
> 
> Jenna is right...Maddie sleeps with me on the weekends...how lame is that? Well, it's a school night and she tends to wake up and go potty and random times during the night. So I have to chase her around the house and put ther in the kennel downstairs. But what I've figured out is to take her potty at 11 PM...and head to bed and we both sleep good...except that she hogs the bed!!!:bowl:
> 
> Anyway...eesh I go on...sorry about that...ANYWAY...as I was saying I would like to know what you think about Cesar...and jeeze my GRANDMA watches his show...and thinks he's SOOO wonderful...I have to disagree with her on that one...
> 
> Some people thinks he's to harsh...while others thinks he works wonders...but what happens after the he leaves...do the dogs do that whole "submissive" thing with the owners??
> 
> So many questions to be answered...lol!:


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## GoldenSail

This thread is pretty old. While I didn't watch older seasons of Cesar I understand that he has changed some from the initial shows (for the better). I have been watching him recently and all I can say is that I am impressed for the most part. My criticism currently is that sometimes I think he works too fast.


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## ManicMarley

Rainnskittles said:


> Both Abbey and I watch the Dog Whisperer and I've incorporated many of his methods in her training. She's very well trained because of a few tricks I learned from his show. First, I claimed the food on the table and claimed all table tops. That only took two showings of it being my food. Now I could put a roast on a low table, leave for a few hours and it would be there when I returned.


How did you claim the table tops? We could use this in my house sometimes....


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## linktrek

I do believe in dogs submission and alpha dogs( wolf pack behavior in dogs) etc. But I don't believe getting a dog to submit is a silver bullet. Some dogs don't submit or even if they do submit, it isn't a cure all.
I think the examples that they put on TV are the more "successful" stories. You can't submit dogs out of bad habits. 
That's my take. 
But now that I have a new dog that I just rescued, the first thing she did was totally submit to me and has taken the number 2 spot in the line up.
I just got a type B Rat Terrier. Although just 12-13 lbs, she plays all day with my GR and runs circles around Gabriella. By motherly instincts, Gabriella can play full force with the new rat terrier,and never hurt her. Amazing to watch.


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## FlyingQuizini

linktrek said:


> I do believe in dogs submission and alpha dogs( wolf pack behavior in dogs) etc. But I don't believe getting a dog to submit is a silver bullet. Some dogs don't submit or even if they do submit, it isn't a cure all.


FWIW, most of that alpha wolf/pack heirarchy stuff has since been disproven - even by David Meech, who is originally credited for the research. Turns out, while wolves in *captivity* may form heirarchies (b/c the wolves aren't from the social group), wolves in the wild do not. The social structure in the wild is more like a "family," consisting of a breeding pair and offspring.


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## john martin

A friend go mine is our local dog whisperer. He has a rehabilitation center himself in the suburbs. He doesn't believe in Ceasar's show since video can be manipulated. He thinks time and reputation is the essence. Though he believe in Ceasar's methods.

IMHO, Ceasar's techniques works in a certain degree. I have my fair share of jumping goldens and she's really very hyperactive. I need to throw the ball 10 times ini a 100 ft. garden just to tire her out and listen to me. Then I train her.


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## Oski'sMom

You have paralyzed people in wheelchairs completely dependent on their guide dogs and they are not physically dominating the dog, but the dog is completely subordinate to them. That seems to disprove the idea that we psychologically dominate dogs by physically dominating them.


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## Bolledeig

Oski'sMom said:


> You have paralyzed people in wheelchairs completely dependent on their guide dogs and they are not physically dominating the dog, but the dog is completely subordinate to them. That seems to disprove the idea that we psychologically dominate dogs by physically dominating them.


I don't really think it disproves anything.
Guide dogs and other types of service dogs are usually a "best of the best" case of dog, picked, trained and tested. 
Cesar works with the very oposite, bad cases of dogs who often are of breed and personality who needs a very firm hand, strict limits and a strong leader.
Every dog is different. Some are happy to please humans from the start, others need different tasks, different leaders. Much like children. 

I don't believe it's that black/white.


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