# Flat Coated Retriever vs Golden Retriever



## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

(If I miscategorized this sorry ><)

What are the main differences in the breeds? (Color not being a factor for me). I just wonder in terms of temperament, energy level, intelligence, willingness to please etc etc...anyone have any knowledge they would like to share? Thanks .


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## SoGolden (Jul 17, 2008)

butterscotch-n-me has owned both. Maybe she can answer your question.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I read an article about them in Gundog Magazine(I know, I know), and they seem to be cheerful athletic dogs, a bit more independent than goldens, with a propensity for the same cancers our goldens get.


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

Someone on another forum suggested them for me and they said that Goldens and flats were the same breed at one point but now they're two. But want to know what makes them distinct before I decide


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## Kirby'sMom (Feb 26, 2007)

Kerribears (sp), in Arizona, has both as well.


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## sharlin (Feb 26, 2007)

Mt beloved Annie had a lot of FC in her and she was just as loving as my GoldenGirls are. I believe they do tend to be a little more energetic but good romp and play time is needed by all of the retriever breeds anyway. I can't quote the breed standard but I think they might be just a wee smaller than goldens, but, not by much. Loving, devoted, and able to melt your heart with a single glance--sound familiar???


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

ooh smaller is good actually I look in on that further.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Here's the breed standard http://www.fcrsainc.org/breedstandard/index.html. The breeder of Eddie and a few other member's goldens, Kelore, had a flatcoat litter:http://www.kelore.com/keloreflatcoats.htm. I


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Aces Wil*

Aces Wild:

Where do you live?

Did you see Blackie in Darlington Shelter in SC?
She looks like she could be part Flat Coat. Ret. to me.
She is in GOlden Ret. Cases on this forum

Here is Blackie:

Lynette said that now Tanya and Mabel have a roommate Babs, another Golden REt. Mix.
By the way... Mabel and Tanya now have a new kennel mate. Her name is "Babs" - another gorgeous golden mix!
Please contact Lynette [email protected] 


Babs is a yellow lab/retriever mix who has definitely seen better days.
She is just pitiful! She needs some TLC and encouragement. She
currently shares a kennel with Tanya and Mabel.

*IF YOU CAN RESCUE BLACKIE, CUDDLES, OR MABEL BELOW PLASE GO TO:
FILL OUT RESCUE APPL. AND EMAIL it to Lynette and tell her what dog you want to rescue.
http://www.rescueadopt.net/darlington/
Click on above link and then scroll down to about middle of page and click on rescue appl.
They should fill out and email to Lynette right away. [email protected]

Blackie and Cuddles there are in DESPERATE need of rescue too *Babs might have about a wk. she just came in.

Rescue Coordinator (Lynette) : [email protected] 

To rescue a pet, fill out the Rescue Application, then email it to: [email protected] 




Lynette said that Blackie, Lab/Gold. Ret. Mix and Cuddles, Gold. REt. Mix Pup are in DESPERATE need of rescue.

*BLACKIE
Blackie is a BEAUTIFUL long-haired black lab/setter mix. She
just stays curled up in the corner of her kennel ? She is terrified!
She is very nervous around other dogs...*


*Check out Maggie-9 mo. old Flat Coat Mix in Greenville, SC-VERY URGENT!!!
http://www.noahs-arks.net/RESCUE/Greenville.html
Maggie is a 9 month old female flat-coated retriever mix. She is about 40 lbs, good girl, has great manners, she doesn’t jump on you at all. Her time is already up. She gets along with the other dogs just fine!*




Greenvlle County Animal Care Services


328C Furman Hall Road


Receiving Building


Greenville, SC 29609


Due to the overwhelming number of phone calls we receive each day from those of you who want to save lives, we kindly request correspondence by e-mail. Thank you for all you do save animals!

[email protected]





*BLACKIE IS ON LEFT IN DARLINGTON, SC 
MAGGIE IS ON RIGHT IN GREENVILLE, SC*


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## Dinsdale (Feb 26, 2008)

My buddy was looking into getting a Flatcoat. I did a little googling as well. We were both stricken by the number of references to what we considered high rates of certain illnesses (I forget, some cancers?) and relatively lower life expectancies for the breed. (He ended up with a silver lab.)

But I have no personal knowledge of the breed other than one sweet flatcoat at the local cobbler's.


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

My sister had a FCR!.Very similar to the golden!Very loving,bright,easy going once trained and puppy stage past!.Love them both!.Either breeds are great choices!.


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

I am in south carolina, greenville isn't so far. (And here I thought I looked at EVERY rescue in the state!!!)


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I love flat coats!! I thought long and hard about getting one before I got Mira.

From the research I did they mature later than a typical Golden and there is also less genetic diversity in the breed, cancer at a young age is common, maybe more common than Goldens


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm really not wanting a puppy right now...so nothing... ie under 1 year old I think (yes still a puppy but not wanting a baby if you know what I mean). Having a baby would be too hard on Moxie.

But nothing over 6, Moxie will be 9 in June and I can't have em going at the same time.


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

Check out the Flat Coat Retriever Society, google it, they have rescues at times, not alot of Pure Bred Flatties in resuces but sometimes you get lucky... 

As for Flatties compared to Goldens, I own 4 Goldens and 1 Flattie.

My Flattie Angel is, smart (sometimes TOO smart), super loving, very obedient, learned very quick at anything I asked or trained her to do. I truly wish I had 10 of her. Not a mean bone in her body, this girl is sooo loving and wants to please me in everything she does. But I do love my Goldies too!!! 

Good luck on which ever breed you pick...


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Dinsdale said:


> My buddy was looking into getting a Flatcoat. I did a little googling as well. We were both stricken by the number of references to what we considered high rates of certain illnesses (I forget, some cancers?) and relatively lower life expectancies for the breed. (He ended up with a silver lab.)
> 
> But I have no personal knowledge of the breed other than one sweet flatcoat at the local cobbler's.



What's a Silver Lab? That's a new one on me.

I love Flat Coat's too. I had thought about one before we got Sam. I'd seen a female at one of my son's ball games and she was so behaved and poised. I was smitten. When I looked into them, they were considered more aloof then a Golden and I wanted a people pleaser. Sam then fell into our lap and the rest is history


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

I think that the flat coated has a bit of a higher drive than goldens, kind of like labs. Other than that, they are very similar.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I have found the ones around here tend to be a bit on the 'spooky' side. There's one across the street, he wandered over one day and as soon as I moved he tucked his tail and ran home. They seem very similar and it could just be the lines around here too.

Tollers are smaller but I haven't met one I'd want to own. Too whiney and vocal for my tastes.

Lana


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## Blaireli (Jun 3, 2008)

paula bedard said:


> What's a Silver Lab? That's a new one on me.


A silver lab is a lab with the coloring of a Weimaraner. 








 
​


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## KatzNK9 (Feb 27, 2007)

I've always heard that Flatties & Goldens are very similar but Flatties are a little more drivey & fieldy. Same basic temperament.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Blaireli said:


> A silver lab is a lab with the coloring of a Weimaraner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Silver Labs are chocolate dilutes. There's also what they call Fox Red Labs, which are very dark yellows. Those "rare colors" are just as controversial among good Lab Breeders as "Rare English Cremes" are in Goldens!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I would love to have a flat-coated retriever, but since all the carpet and furniture choices have been strongly influenced by having golden hair show a little less, adding a similar shedder with black hair would be disastrous on the décor. 

Or I'd have to vacuum more instead of convincing myself all that golden hair isn't showing.

Seriously, though, what a matched set a Golden and a Flat Coated would be, eh? I'm jealous of you guys who have both.


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## Carmen (Jun 2, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I would love to have a flat-coated retriever, but since all the carpet and furniture choices have been strongly influenced by having golden hair show a little less, adding a similar shedder with black hair would be disastrous on the décor.
> 
> Or I'd have to vacuum more instead of convincing myself all that golden hair isn't showing.
> 
> Seriously, though, what a matched set a Golden and a Flat Coated would be, eh? I'm jealous of you guys who have both.


We have a Golden and a Flattie. Our Golden and been a heavy shedder since the start, I have to Furminate her every couple of days. The Flattie, Phoebe, hardly looses anything. I brush her too, but nothing on the brush. 
As for differences, Phoebe is more willing to please and more loving. In fact, she is more willing to love where Summer (the Golden) wants to be loved.

Her retriever skills are loads better than Summer's (but I think that Summer is just not a retrieving girl). She is also a water baby, where Summer, again, isn't. 

Size wise, Phoebe is 2 months younger, being 8 months old now, and as tall as Summer. She's also heavier. When I was researching retrievers before we got Summer, we were looking to get either. But there were no breeders around. Summer was 5 months old when we got Phoebe (Summer needed a canine companion, her mood seriously changed and she's never been happier). 

Both are wonderful. I don't think I could choose between either. They both give us different things we need from our pets.

Good luck with your search.


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## mdp6404 (Sep 1, 2009)

*Golden V Flatcoated*

I have two shelter dogs. The oldest, Smokie, when we got him, we had no idea he was basically almost a pure bred flat coated. He might have a bit of curly coated in him as his coat is a little more wavy than the traditional picture you see of a flat-coated, but his demeanor is everything we have read on flat-coated. We also have a chow/ golden mix and know several friends with goldens. I would say goldens are more docile than flat coateds are. Flat coated are very very smart, almost in a challenging way. I have talked with dozens of flat-coated owners that swear they are the smartest dog they have ever had but again, they can be disobedient at times as well. They are more prone to hip displatia as well. They also love to "kiss" in the face. They enjoy licking your face and I have heard this or read this about almost all flat-coated retrievers. 

Since we adopted at a shelter, I would encourage you to check there for flat-coated. You may get lucky like we did.


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## Rhythm (Apr 29, 2009)

Shalva, member, is a breeder of both Goldens and Flat Coats.


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## MorningGlory (Aug 11, 2009)

Is Flat coat another name for a field retriever?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

MorningGlory said:


> Is Flat coat another name for a field retriever?


Flat Coat Retriever is actually a breed all it's own.


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## mudpuppy (Sep 3, 2009)

Hi! I just joined, this is my first post. What a great place! I have a flatcoat and a golden, so I just had to post here. Those are my favorite breeds.

Goldens were bred from flatcoats and the now extinct St. John's Water Dog. They are alike in many ways to the casual observer but there are defiinite differences.

Flatties are... unlike most dogs. They are still true working dogs. They have an unmatched ball drive, even more than most goldens. Almost all get cancer at 10 years old, due to genetics. You have to accept this when you get them.

They are very intelligent, but sometimes ditzy. My flattie learned how to open fence gates by observing people do it. Now he opens them with his snout as well as a human.

Flatties can be more aloof than goldens to those outside the pack, but are VERY affectionate to everyone in the pack. They are gentle with people and dogs. They will probably knock over toddlers by mistake. They kiss everyone.

They are the "Peter Pan of the Dog World". Their puppyhood lasts until 3, and they don't really calm down until they hit 7. Even then they have high energy for an adult. They live to do their job. They love water, actually can't stay out of it.

Their coat is amazing and low maintenance. The shine of light on the onyx coat is spectacular, I get compliments constantly. They are big like goldens, mine is over 100 pounds.

Some flatties look like black goldens, but the ones that win shows have their own look with a longer snout. You can see a bunch of pics here

http://www.fcrsainc.org/photogallery/index.html

Flatties aren't for everyone. A good breeder will ask you why you want one - what kind of job you have for it. Most people don't pick them for just pets. They need space, exercise and a do better when they have a job.

But their personalities are amazing. I can't even put it into words. Its really the best thing about them. You should spend some time with one to see.

The flatty wannabe's are my favorite. The flatcoat community is very picky about what they'll call a flatcoat, the ones that are very close but violate the picky breed standard are called wannabe's.. A black lab/golden mix will frequently be called a wannabe. Their faces more resemble a golden. Some purebred flatties look just like the wannabe's. My best dog ever was a flatty wannabe.

There is so much I can say about them. Please let me know if you have any questions.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Silver Labs are chocolate dilutes. There's also what they call Fox Red Labs, which are very dark yellows. Those "rare colors" are just as controversial among good Lab Breeders as "Rare English Cremes" are in Goldens!


Jumping in late here - but there was also (silver is out of fashion at the moment) quite the discussion about whether those Silver labs were infact bred back to some wiems. AKC stepped up the DNA testing and suddenly there are significantly fewer silvers (registered as chocolate). I see a few of the "fox red" Labradors come through classes...you mean the yellow?


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## Merlins mom (Jun 20, 2007)

There's a flatcoat breeder that brings her dogs to the daycare on occasion and I just LOVE her dogs. They're so happy! Very playful and sweet. I would love to have one.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

> Goldens were bred from flatcoats and the now extinct St. John's Water Dog. They are alike in many ways to the casual observer but there are defiinite differences.


Goldens were created from a breeding between a "Liver" Wavy Coated Retriever (the forerunner of the flat coat) named NOUS and a Tweed Water Spaniel (an extinct Scottish breed) named BELLE. 

The St. John's Water Dog was the forerunner of both the Labrador and the Wavy Coat, the Wavy Coat was outcrossed with setters and possibly a collie.

Just to add, I did a long google search to see if I could find any pictures or mentions of a yellow flat coat. Theoretically it is possible (like NOUS), but the only mention I found was that they may have occurred, but they would have been culled.


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## Bradh2238 (Apr 5, 2009)

My wife really wanted a flat-coat retriever. They are very difficult to find, but what really killed it for us was the life expectancy. The more research I did, the more it seemed like cancer wasn't an "if" but a "when." I spoke to one person who said they had had several over the years, and never had one live past 8. I know a few people around here that have a flat coat. They really are incredible dogs.


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## Bogey's Mom (Dec 23, 2008)

We have also looked into getting an FCR. There is a great rescue: http://www.fcrsainc.org/rescue/index.html

We actually fell in love with a boy from PA, but he was scooped up too quickly. If you want to rescue, check that link daily and they will be listed on the right hand side. Right now there aren't any.

We saw several on our summer trip to Banff. I love them! If I had the property, time and energy, I'd have a golden, a flat coated retriever and a toller. I love them all!


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## Bogey's Mom (Dec 23, 2008)

Here is a breeder in Alabama that looks good on the surface if you are looking:

http://www.kaydinkennels.com/


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## darekennel (Sep 21, 2009)

Having been owned by both Flat Coats and Goldens for more years than I now care to recall; I can tell you that Flat Coats (sorry to say) are generally far healthier. While cancer is an issue in the breed..the incidents of hip, eye, thyroid, patella,and heart problems are not near as prevalent as in Goldens. (Not to mention non health issues in Goldens like missing teeth and retained testicles.) I have been very blessed to have incredible longevity in my FCR lines with most living over 11 years (oldest being 14).

YES, I have produced a yellow pup. He was GORGEOUS. It certainly was not an intentional result of the breeding but they do happen. He was neutered and placed in a wonderful hunting home, where he enjoys his days water fowling and being a great pet. He did look a lot like a Golden with big bone and a more substantive head.

They are CONSIDERABLY different than Goldens in training. Whereas a Golden will seek to please...A Flat Coat feels the need to show YOU how it should be done. They are somewhat more challenging in that respect. I do believe Goldens make a better house pet especially for someone less active.

I will always love my Goldens but I feel the sad direction of the breed splitting into type according to venue has led me more toward the Flatties. FCR breeders stress the multi-purpose nature of the breed and try to encourage titles on both ends of the dogs name prior to breeding. As a result of this stewardship Flatties have retained a lot of "birdiness" and the number of Champions with field titles is proportionally higher than in Goldens.


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## SoGolden (Jul 17, 2008)

AcesWild said:


> (If I miscategorized this sorry ><)
> 
> What are the main differences in the breeds? (Color not being a factor for me). I just wonder in terms of temperament, energy level, intelligence, willingness to please etc etc...anyone have any knowledge they would like to share? Thanks .


 


darekennel said:


> ....They are CONSIDERABLY different than Goldens in training. Whereas a Golden will seek to please...A Flat Coat feels the need to show YOU how it should be done. They are somewhat more challenging in that respect. ....


As I recall, the original poster was researching prospects as a Service Dog. Your very informative post on the subject of Flat Coats is most helpful for anyone considering the breed for this purpose; certainly the Golden Retriever, with it's trainability and eagerness to please, is the far better choice for this calling. Thank you for the info and Welcome to GRF.


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## oktay (Feb 14, 2009)

One other difference between the breeds is that the Flat Coat does not have an undercoat. I don't know what practical difference this makes, if any.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

mudpuppy said:


> Hi! I just joined, this is my first post. What a great place! I have a flatcoat and a golden, so I just had to post here. Those are my favorite breeds.
> 
> Goldens were bred from flatcoats and the now extinct St. John's Water Dog. They are alike in many ways to the casual observer but there are defiinite differences.
> 
> ...


 

Welcome to the forum! :wavey:
I found your post to be very informative and straight forward. I look to learn more from you in the future.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

darekennel said:


> Having been owned by both Flat Coats and Goldens for more years than I now care to recall; I can tell you that Flat Coats (sorry to say) are generally far healthier. While cancer is an issue in the breed..the incidents of hip, eye, thyroid, patella,and heart problems are not near as prevalent as in Goldens. (Not to mention non health issues in Goldens like missing teeth and retained testicles.) I have been very blessed to have incredible longevity in my FCR lines with most living over 11 years (oldest being 14).
> 
> YES, I have produced a yellow pup. He was GORGEOUS. It certainly was not an intentional result of the breeding but they do happen. He was neutered and placed in a wonderful hunting home, where he enjoys his days water fowling and being a great pet. He did look a lot like a Golden with big bone and a more substantive head.
> 
> ...


 
Welcome to the forum! :wavey:
I found your post very informative. While I don't agree the direction of the Golden splitting has to be true I whole heartedly agree with you that "FCR breeders stress the multi-purpose nature of the breed". None of the other retirever breeds breeders are as dedicated to the multi-purpose dog as they. It is something as a Golden person I am sad and envious of.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

> YES, I have produced a yellow pup. He was GORGEOUS. It certainly was not an intentional result of the breeding but they do happen. He was neutered and placed in a wonderful hunting home, where he enjoys his days water fowling and being a great pet. He did look a lot like a Golden with big bone and a more substantive head.


Wow, do you have any pics?


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## darekennel (Sep 21, 2009)

*Yellow Puppy*

The following pics of the yellow Flattie were taken ranging from 5 to about 7 weeks of age.
I am NOT advocating, endorsing or supporting yellow FCR puppies or the intentional breeding thereof. Ethical breeders never purposely try to produce yellows. They just happen from time to time as a simple recessive color gene manifestation. The color is disallowed in the standard. Just letting you guys see how similar to a Golden they are in appearance. This young man was placed in a great pet home. *Neutered* and happy. 
AGAIN: YELLOW is NOT a desired color nor does it make such pup "valuable" in the breed.


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

mudpuppy said:


> The flatty wannabe's are my favorite. The flatcoat community is very picky about what they'll call a flatcoat, the ones that are very close but violate the picky breed standard are called wannabe's.. A black lab/golden mix will frequently be called a wannabe. Their faces more resemble a golden. Some purebred flatties look just like the wannabe's. My best dog ever was a flatty wannabe.
> 
> There is so much I can say about them. Please let me know if you have any questions.


 
I am adopting a wannabe. She is arriving on Saturday. I like that..wannabe... I can't wait till she arrrives and I can post pictures and more importantly give her her name, and start the assessment process. She is possibly a special needs dog w/ hearing impairment...


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Wow, the yellow Flat-Coat pics are great (not that I am advocating them or anything). Just as a point of interest, I wonder if you could tell the difference in the DNA between a Golden and a yellow Flat-Coat?


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## Adriennelane (Feb 13, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I would love to have a flat-coated retriever, but since all the carpet and furniture choices have been strongly influenced by having golden hair show a little less, adding a similar shedder with black hair would be disastrous on the décor.
> 
> Or I'd have to vacuum more instead of convincing myself all that golden hair isn't showing.
> 
> Seriously, though, what a matched set a Golden and a Flat Coated would be, eh? I'm jealous of you guys who have both.



My husband is looking into buying a new truck, and we're probably going to get one with tab interior just so it won't show the Lucy hair so much.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Cham*

Cham

Congrats to you!!!

Where is your Flattie Wannabee coming from? What Shelter!
Where do you live?
Very excited for you!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bogey's Mom (Dec 23, 2008)

darekennel said:


> The following pics of the yellow Flattie were taken ranging from 5 to about 7 weeks of age.
> I am NOT advocating, endorsing or supporting yellow FCR puppies or the intentional breeding thereof. Ethical breeders never purposely try to produce yellows. They just happen from time to time as a simple recessive color gene manifestation. The color is disallowed in the standard. Just letting you guys see how similar to a Golden they are in appearance. This young man was placed in a great pet home. *Neutered* and happy.
> AGAIN: YELLOW is NOT a desired color nor does it make such pup "valuable" in the breed.


Thanks! That is SO interesting. They are strikingly similar. Do you have a picture of the boy grown? I'd love to see one.


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## darekennel (Sep 21, 2009)

Sadly no recent pics. He would be about 5 now.
Structurally he was by far the pick puppy of the litter.
I must confess it was heart warming to see a gold face in my whelping box again. (I would never admit it to the FCR people lol)
There was a yellow that did tremendously in obedience...OTCH I believe but the Society and many breeders did not care for the fact that it was shown...even in obedience. We really try not to promote the color incase someone jumps on the "rare color" band wagon.


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

Karen519 said:


> Cham
> 
> Congrats to you!!!
> 
> ...


 
I am getting her thru Sunshine Golden Retriever Resue. The kennel/Vet was Rehm, but once her heartworm treatment was completed, she went to foster. We foster most of our dogs... She was an owner surrender! I am sooooo excited.


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

darekennel said:


> The following pics of the yellow Flattie were taken ranging from 5 to about 7 weeks of age.
> 
> Little yellow boy looks like he is built like a bulldozer. What a solid little guy. very handsome, but your secret is safe with us...


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## gold'nchocolate (May 31, 2005)

cham said:


> I am getting her thru Sunshine Golden Retriever Resue. The kennel/Vet was Rehm, but once her heartworm treatment was completed, she went to foster. We foster most of our dogs... She was an owner surrender! I am sooooo excited.


Nancy, is it Pepperanne? She's a beauty!!


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## Bogey's Mom (Dec 23, 2008)

gold'nchocolate said:


> Nancy, is it Pepperanne? She's a beauty!!


I agree! I hope it's her!


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

gold'nchocolate said:


> Nancy, is it Pepperanne? She's a beauty!!


 
Yep, it's Pepperanne. Soon to have a new name... she deserves better. I have some in mind but am waiting to meet her and find out who she is...
I am so excited...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Here is a yellow flat coat, purebred, from a foreign site:


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)




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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)




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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I think you get the idea. The dogs were all posted on sites where it was obvious they were purebred FCRs

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/1465380442/in/set-1245335/

I don't think they look like Goldens. FCR head is sooo distinctive


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## Bogey's Mom (Dec 23, 2008)

Agreed. I don't really like them in yellow. The head just looks unusual.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

The bad pigment is repulsive to me, but I think they're cute dogs!


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## darekennel (Sep 21, 2009)

*yellow FCR pigment*

Interesting the adult dogs pictured had liver noses. My pup had a jet black nose. I think it is related to whether they carry liver as well as the yellow gene.
Vetgen does coat color testing for FCR and has a page on their site showing the results of various crosses (genetically ..not photos). Yellows can have liver or black noses. Liver noses looks like a badly pigmented Golden nose. I dont like it.


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