# What can I do?



## ataylor (Dec 28, 2008)

I was told by his sire's breeder/owner that Jackson has a great body and moves nicely.


----------



## ataylor (Dec 28, 2008)

Is his head too light?

or

I think it maybe because he has not fully matured yet.


----------



## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

I'm not into conformation but your Jackson is gorgeous. I wouldn't think his color would keep him from getting his points. Keep up the good work.


----------



## ataylor (Dec 28, 2008)

When he is in the ring, he is most of the time the lightest one.


----------



## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

PM PG (Laura) she will have the answer.


----------



## ataylor (Dec 28, 2008)

Who are you talking about?


----------



## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

I think Jackson is quite handsome!


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hello!
Very cute video!!! From his previous photos you have posted I thought he was very upright in the upper arm, but did not appear that way in the video. He appears a good bit long in the body but I'm not sure if the video is stretched or not! Clean coming & going, too bad we can't see side gate. You do a good job handling him but I would like to see a little less fiddling around when you're setting him up -- stop using bait until you have all 4 feet set. 
There are lots of reasons he may not be taking the points. How old is he? What class are you putting him in? Are they large or small shows? HOW OFTEN are you in the ring? Is he getting placements, reserves? Could be you are just showing an immature dog infrequently, and you just need to give him time to grow up then really commit yourself and go to at least two shows weekends a month.
I went long stretches between points with Fisher, sometimes over 6 months, but he was in the ribbons most of the time so that kept me going. It took me almost 2 years from first point to last, showing at least two weekends every month. I wanted to pull my hair out by the end of it, and honestly thought about quitting with 14 points and both majors. He took reserve or won Open and lost the point about 10 times, in a 4 month period when he needed ONE point to finish. I didn't think I could go on! And what does one point say? Nothing!  
However I do know of several friends down here, that show up to every show with their goldens -- they have been showing for 3+ years with NO POINTS. Their handling is fine. The dog has no glaring faults, but is just not enough to win. In goldens, that is not enough. Other breeds you can finish that, not in goldens. Honestly I don't know how they keep going, I would have quit a long time ago. If they were really determined they need to quit spending their money at hotels and gas, and pay a handler -- or go buy a better dog!
Please take what I say with a grain of salt. I am a stranger on the internet, and by no means an expert! You're better off to ask some local golden people what they think, people you respect who can give you an honest answer.
Do not think this means your dog is less valuable. It is SO HARD in goldens to even get a point, each one is a little gem. Goldens are THE hardest breed in AKC to finish. Best of luck!!


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Okay, just saw on your website that Jackson is just a little over 2 years old.
First, does he have all his clearances yet? Don't show a dog over 2 years old unless you have all the clearances. Why bother if he doesn't pass one?
Second, 2 years old is often very very VERY immature for a boy especially. If you wait another year or even two years, he will look much better. What's the rush?
I didn't start showing Fisher "for real" until he was 3 1/2. He finished when he was 5. His father (Yogi) finished at 13 months and had won two Nationals by then! But who cares, they are different dogs.


----------



## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> Goldens are THE hardest breed in AKC to finish. Best of luck!!


I agree with this. Goldens are a tough breed to compete with, because there's SO much competition.

I don't know diddly about showing Goldens, but I do know that showing too young (immature) doesn't help matters. 

I missed Cole's (my Newf) puppy classes. He limped from 7-12 mos old off and on. So that window was closed for us. After 12 mos, he was up and down in the rear and gangly. Plus his coat wasn't in. So, that window was closed.

Now we're at 21 months. I'm not showing him yet, because I KNOW what his competition looks like. In Open class ... male Newfs are generally 3.5 years old and older, and I'm NOT wasting my time or money until he can compete against the "big boys" and win.

His chest needs to drop, he needs to bulk up and he needs his full, mature adult coat.

He is a beautiful boy, with a wonderful gait, wonderful personality and presence, and I know he will get his CH. But only when he's ready.

To me, Jackson is very handsome, and moves well...from what I can see. The poster above is right, however....a video from the side showing his gait is important for people to evaulate.

You do a nice job handling. But, just a question ... have you ever considered hiring a handler just until he's finished? Then you could Special him if you wanted to? Handlers DO give you that extra edge...even tho it's "supposed" to be about the dog. And the more of a "face" your handler has, the better your odds. You don't know how MUCH I hate to say that, but too often, it's true. Cole will be handled by a pro ... a well known pro. I want to get it over with, fast. LOL

Laura is Pointgold, BTW!

Good luck....and relax. You have time.


----------



## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I agree, he may just need some time to grow up before he's going to do well. It's sometimes amazing how they can change between 2 and 4 or 5 in age. My border collie as an example, had NO real coat until the last year when he turned five, he went from a thin coat to a hairball.

While you're waiting, you could always work on agility, obedience, field and just have fun with him, then when he's older try him again, maybe talk to his sire's owner and see what they say about shows and judges in your neck of the woods. A pro handler is sometimes cheaper in the long run since they do have an edge and can go to more 'out of the way' shows.

Lana


----------



## ataylor (Dec 28, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Hello!
> Very cute video!!! From his previous photos you have posted I thought he was very upright in the upper arm, but did not appear that way in the video. He appears a good bit long in the body but I'm not sure if the video is stretched or not! Clean coming & going, too bad we can't see side gate. You do a good job handling him but I would like to see a little less fiddling around when you're setting him up -- stop using bait until you have all 4 feet set.
> There are lots of reasons he may not be taking the points. How old is he? What class are you putting him in? Are they large or small shows? HOW OFTEN are you in the ring? Is he getting placements, reserves? Could be you are just showing an immature dog infrequently, and you just need to give him time to grow up then really commit yourself and go to at least two shows weekends a month.
> I went long stretches between points with Fisher, sometimes over 6 months, but he was in the ribbons most of the time so that kept me going. It took me almost 2 years from first point to last, showing at least two weekends every month. I wanted to pull my hair out by the end of it, and honestly thought about quitting with 14 points and both majors. He took reserve or won Open and lost the point about 10 times, in a 4 month period when he needed ONE point to finish. I didn't think I could go on! And what does one point say? Nothing!
> ...


 
Jackson will turn 2 on May 1st. I show him in either Open or Bred-By. He has never won a reserve or winners. I think the shows are pretty big in my area. I try to show him at least every other month.

I will try to get a side video of his gait.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

This is just my observation, I know very very little about showing so please take it with a grain of salt, or maybe a pound....
The puppies that I see put up are very mature for their ages, with a lot of bone, big heads, and a lot of coat. Color doesn't matter. Very light puppies get put up quite often.
As they mature and the other dogs "catch up", you don't see the same ones winning anymore, except of course for the really exceptional ones. It's as if the playing field levels out.
My Tito will be 2 in March. The change in him, just in the past couple of months, is amazing. I wouldn't have dared put him in an AKC ring before now, and even now he's got a lot of maturing and filling out to do before he can compete with the "big boys" in Open. When I saw my guy on Sunday against the Open dogs (28 males in open!), he looked like a baby. Maybe Jackson just needs more time, too? I think he looks very handsome in the photo of him, but without putting their hands on him I don't think anyone can tell some of the things the judges are looking for, like the shoulder lay-back (which they seem very interested in). If his shoulders are rather upright, he's going to have a very, very hard time. No way to tell that from the video.
How many typically show in your shows? In this area, there are usually at least 30, and often quite a bit more than that. I find it very daunting. I'm looking for some small shows (15 or less) so we can sort of "test the waters", too.






ataylor said:


> Jackson will turn 2 on May 1st. I show him in either Open or Bred-By. He has never won a reserve or winners. I think the shows are pretty big in my area. I try to show him at least every other month.
> 
> I will try to get a side video of his gait.


----------



## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

I didn't watch the video - so take this as just an opinion based on what you've posted....I think you need to find an independant party to get their hands on him and give you a clear evaluation of your dog and the breed standard. This is not a critcism of the stud dog owner but it's possible that they are being partial in their evaluation - it's called kennel blindness - it happens a lot and it could be completely unconscious and without any malicious intent. 

Do you have an experienced breeder in the area? Evaluations via video or photo is not going to give you the whole picture. If not a breeder you respect and trust, then maybe a professional handler who specializes in goldens - or an AKC judge...there are some good options. While not the whole picture do you have any option for entering a CCA (GRCA program), category 1 evaluators are also judges in either the CKC or AKC - ask questions of these people. Like Amy said if you determine that your energy and entry fees are better spent elsewhere that doesn't mean that your dog is any less special to you. I also think that there is value to having a dog "out there" and getting some mileage - though for me not 2 weekends a month - we have too many other things to spend our trial money on - for young dogs it's ring experience and positive ring experience. My main focus is obedience - but I love the ring confidence that came with having him out in the breed ring as a youngster.

Erica


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

ataylor said:


> Jackson will turn 2 on May 1st. I show him in either Open or Bred-By. He has never won a reserve or winners. I think the shows are pretty big in my area. I try to show him at least every other month.
> 
> I will try to get a side video of his gait.


Several points here, and please note that my opinion is worth exactly what you've paid for it  . I have read so many of your posts in which you indicate that you have been told many times by people in your area that Jackson is immature. Looking at his photos, particularly the one linked to his pedigree in K9 data, as well as your latest video I would agree. He lacks rib spring yet, and although difficult without hands on, looks to still be fairly narrow in the chest. He is long and apears to have a slight dip behind his withers, which grooming can minimize. I also agree with the assessment that he has a straight upper arm. 
Bred-by is a _very _difficult class to win from, unless you are a pretty well known breeder - and even then, WD from Bred-By is more often seen at specialties. 
At this juncture, I would agree with letting him mature more, and evaluating him later. You could continue to show him once every other month if you enjoy it, but don't expect to go WD with him. (I'd pull him and wait - maybe do obedience or agility with him while waiting...) With the cost of competing these days, more and more breeders/exhibitors are not showing dogs until they are really "ready", other than a few puppy classes, (and Sweeps at specialties) so they know what they are doing and to show them that it is fun, so competition is even tougher given that there are usually only dogs that are truly competitive in the rings. I agree with getting his clearances done while you are waiting - if any of them aren't passed, you'd be showing him for nothing (unless you can afford to do it for fun, or have no intentions of breeding him anyway.) 
If and when he is ready, then you need to know that showing him as infrequently as you do is not helping your chances of winning. My mentor told me "You can't win if you aren't there. When a dog is ready GET HIM OUT, and make sure that he looks amazing. Grooming needs to be perfect. Coat needs to be in top condition, as does the dog himself. And you better look good, too." 
It's a tough game, no matter the breed, but showing Goldens is not for the feint of heart. Showing dogs is one of the few, if not the ONLY, sport where amateurs and professionals compete together. Amateurs better be really good at what they do in order to be competitive. And they absolutely can be. Realistically, if you want to beat the pros, you have to do what they do. Groom perfectly, condition well, train hard. Additionally, a dog that is a couch potato 27 days a month can't be expected to go out and be competive for 3. It's a committment. This is not to say that a show dog cannot be a pet - they absolutely can, and should be. But they have GOT to be cared for differently than the average Fido in order to be both.
Let Jackson grow up a bit, have his clearances done, reassess him later, and make your decisions from there.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Excellent post by Pointgold, I agree with everything!
Let him grow up. He might be just fantastic with another year of maturing under his belt, but if you keep dragging him to shows, you will spin your wheels, get frustrated, the dog gets bored, and when the time comes that he could be competitive, you're totally burned out and jaded on the whole thing!
It is a huge commitment to get a dog ready to take points. Grooming, conditioning, feeding, exercise, training, handling, socializing, wow -- so much!!! Why do all that with a dog who is still immature?
Go to small local shows here and there to keep your head in the game. I'm talking, one every 3-4 months. In the meantime, train for obedience, tracking, agility, hunting, etc. How awesome is it to take a competitive dog in the Open class, win the points, and finish a multititled dog? I'll tell you -- it is SUPER awesome  
That 2 year mark your dog is at is exactly the point at which people give up because they can't seem to win, and two years later their dog is sitting on the couch, overweight and mats behind his ears, when he could be winning THEN if his owner had had that foresight. 
Patience!


----------



## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I would listen to PointGold, she knows her stuff.

And since I know nothing about conformation: I think he is gorgeous so when he matures he will surely be a winner! Can't wait to hear about that!


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

ataylor said:


> Who are you talking about?


Pointgold here. She has tons of experience ( in a GOOD way, Laura  and will give an honest opinion.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Pointgold here. She has tons of experience ( in a GOOD way, Laura  and will give an honest opinion.


No, no... that's quite alright. There are new folks here who may not have seen the thread where we all posted old pics of ourselves. I shared one of my first dog show:


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

OMG! I have not LOL at a thread in a looooong time! 

Too funny!


----------



## cmichele (Jan 16, 2009)

I don't get any of the show stuff or whatever but he is SO beautiful.


----------



## SamIAm's Mom (Dec 24, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> No, no... that's quite alright. There are new folks here who may not have seen the thread where we all posted old pics of ourselves. I shared one of my first dog show:


Now THAT is hilarious!


----------



## ataylor (Dec 28, 2008)

Why do I need to get his clearances done? I don't plan on breeding him right now.


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I think you should get the clearances because if he doesn't pass all of them, you may not want to spend more time and money with him in the show ring.


----------



## ataylor (Dec 28, 2008)

That is a good reason. 

Here are some pictures of Jackson's body. Sorry, but they are not the best pictures.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

that one called for a spew alert. Spit my pop on the screen when I saw it!




Pointgold said:


> No, no... that's quite alright. There are new folks here who may not have seen the thread where we all posted old pics of ourselves. I shared one of my first dog show:


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

ataylor said:


> Why do I need to get his clearances done? I don't plan on breeding him right now.


As both Erica and I suggested, getting clearances done would help to determine if waiting for him to mature enough to show is "worth" it. If he were not to clear something, there would be no reason to show him unless you can afford to do it for fun, as you wouldn't breed a dog that failed anything.


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> No, no... that's quite alright. There are new folks here who may not have seen the thread where we all posted old pics of ourselves. I shared one of my first dog show:



GOSH... it's in color !!!!!


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> GOSH... it's in color !!!!!


Yeah. It was colorized when they did "Cupid Angling".


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

AWWWW, come on Laura, even I wasn't around before talkies!!!!!!


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm three days older than dirt....


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm three days older than dirt....


 
Aww, a baby.


----------



## ataylor (Dec 28, 2008)

Where do I go to get the clearences?


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

ataylor said:


> Where do I go to get the clearences?


 
Check with GR folks in your area to get references for a vet that does good OFA hip/elbow radiographs. You'll also need to find a board certified Veterinary Ophthalmologist, and Cardiologist, for eyes and heart. Fellow exhibitors or club members should be able to help.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

also see if your local golden retriever club sponsors clearance clinics; some of them, such as the one here in IL, sponsor heart/eye clinics every year.




Pointgold said:


> Check with GR folks in your area to get references for a vet that does good OFA hip/elbow radiographs. You'll also need to find a board certified Veterinary Ophthalmologist, and Cardiologist, for eyes and heart. Fellow exhibitors or club members should be able to help.


----------



## ataylor (Dec 28, 2008)

There is a video that shows his side gate.

It is the best I could do about the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzcbCAmvIN4&feature=channel_page


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

His foot timing is nice, and he has nice reach. I think what may be hurting him is his length - he loses his topline on the move - there is a rise over his loin and it articulates when moving. Maturity and committed conditioning might help some.


----------



## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> No, no... that's quite alright. There are new folks here who may not have seen the thread where we all posted old pics of ourselves. I shared one of my first dog show:


Aw. PG, that seriously made my day! I haven't laughed at a post like that in a while. It's especially funny for us "little" Junior Handlers.


----------



## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

ataylor said:


> Where do I go to get the clearences?


Also, sometimes at big clusters they have CERFs and Cardiac testing for reduced rates.


----------



## ataylor (Dec 28, 2008)

I was talking with my mom and she does want to spend a lot of money again on getting his clearances done.

So, I guess he won't get them done.


----------



## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

ataylor said:


> I was talking with my mom and she does want to spend a lot of money again on getting his clearances done.
> 
> So, I guess he won't get them done.


I really hope you don't plan on breeding then. Goldens need at LEAST Hips, elbows, heart, and current CERF clearances before they can be CONSIDERED being bred.

Also temperament, structure, trainability, pedigrees, health, breed type, etc all go in to breeding.

Breeding is not cheap or easy. If I ever decided to get involved, I will expect not to make money, but to lose money everytime a breeding is planned.

As for showing, it's perfectly okay if you decide to keep showing him. But because the Golden ring is so competitive, most dogs competing of the right age will be cleared already because Conformation is all about evaluating breeding stock. But, it's always great if you have the time and the money to do it as a hobby, or just for fun. : )


----------



## ataylor (Dec 28, 2008)

We weren't really on planing it.


----------



## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

ataylor said:


> We weren't really on planing it.


Don't take this the wrong way..doncha love it when people start posts like that? Something stinky is about to fall right?

I watched your gaiting video...To me, you look very young (which is relative I know) - are you under 18? If so have you looked into the AKC junior handler program? I got into dogs too late, but I hear it's a fantastic resource for juniors and can be a very positive experience. I did juniors with horses and it was a fantastic experience. Junior handler would be a way for both you and Jackson to get some really positive ring experience - there is also a junior program for obedience/rally and agility...

Something to think about while you wait for him to mature...

Erica


----------



## ataylor (Dec 28, 2008)

I was in Jrs. for about 4 years. Then I turned 18 on Feb. 13th. When I did Jrs. I was showing Kailey (Jackson's mom).


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Have you considered taking Jackson to a GRCA CCA event. They are truly an awesome learning experience. Your dog is evaluated by three people, two who are AKC conformation judges. They give you a written critique of every part of your dog from head to tail. They post these events on the GRCA website at http://www.grca.org/events/cca/cca_events.html
I realize it may be difficult to find one near you in Minnesota but keep checking.


----------

