# SH test setups



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Here are some test diagrams Barb. In all pictures the orange line is the blind and the other clolours are marks.

This window, 2 water test Breeze ran in PA.


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Breeze SH at Marshbanks
The water blind in this one was challenging as they hit the mud flat at an angle and a lot of dogs wanted to just square off to the cover on the side instead of carrying the line to the back corner. The islands on the marks were also tempting for cheaty dogs on the way out. Quite a few dogs got up on them. The left mark also provided suction that made some dogs unwilling to get up on the mud flat as well--they wanted to take more water.


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Breeze Michigan Flyways

This was a really nice test. The land blind was likely the most challenging element (and the breaky water bird). The land sloped off towards the pond, so when some dogs hit the cover they sucked down to the water. The clostest mark was the flyer, so for other dogs it provided suction the other way.


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Two CKC Senior water tests Breeze ran

The water blind in the top shot was NASTY. All the light green was duck weed and lily pads, and it was a stick pond. It was an angle entry. There was a big white rock on the island square across from the line, but the blind is on the far left side of the island. Guess where the dogs wanted to go? Blind was run first, then invitation to the marks. The short mark straight out was the first mark down. Only three dogs passed this test of the 15 who went to water--Breeze, a Toller, and the Golden that I am breeding Breeze's daughter Desi to next week!


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Winter Finger Lakes

The water blind in this was the toughest Win ran in AKC senior. It was run first, and then marks were by invitation. It was over 80 yards long, those last two islands were just off line and the blind planter was sitting visible in a canoe on the shore. The junior test had been in the same pond the day before and one of their marks had landed on the point of land sticking out where the water narrows at the top of that cove in the bottom right. Put a third mark there and this is a meaty Master test. The shorter mark was the memory bird and landed deep in a bank of tules. They had to swim past it for the long go bird. Some dogs picked the short one up first but then had difficulty getting out to the long mark.


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Winter--2 tests at Michigan Flyways

Magenta line in the third pic is the flyer, done as a walkup single. Blind was run after it. Extreme crosswind blowing down the hill towards the flyer, fyer station between the mark and the blind. This was a nasty test.


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

A couple of CKC tests Winter ran

The short mark in the bottom pic is a diversion bird.


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Some of the tests I have set.

Top shot, long mark was the go-bird, and the short the memory. dogs who failed the blind squared the shore and got out early and then ran around in the tall cover back on land.

Next, the memory bird was the longer mark with the land entry and then down the channel. A lot of dogs cheated it and ran deep on land which did not help them as the wind was blowing from land to water--no wind saves, no reward for cheating. This was the mark that most dogs who failed could not do--the "money" bird. The water blind was in running water, but full of dogwood and other scrub, and we lost a couple of dogs there as well who became self-employed..

In the third, the dogs did the marks fine for the most part, but on the blind some scalloped back to shore all the time with the tighter entry, or else got fixated on the islands and refused to cast into the corner where the bird was.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Wow Shelly, I can't thank you enough!! These are incredible. The only one that looks really hairy is the very first one, the blind looks a bit tough. The others are very reassuring!
In the 13th photo, is that a triple plus a blind?


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

On all of them it looks like there is a good angle between the marks, and also between marks and blinds, except on #13 which is the triple, one mark looks somewhat close to the blind. 
This is so helpful to have a feel for what we might encounter!


----------



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Those are great Shelly! Even though you posted them for Barb, I thought they were educational, as well. Thanks!


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

No problemo. A couple fo those tests were actually set by judges who are on that panel you are considering, Barb!

The first one wasn't actually all that bad. It was not very long and they only had to cross a small channel. Most of the green on the far side was actually duckweed in the water. The tough part of it was the go bird which was the left mark--it landed just off shore with a huge splash and at least 5 dogs broke on it. The honour was on that series.

I've gone back and added some comments to go with the pictures--easier than trying to correlate it here!


----------



## Golden Gibby (Jan 8, 2011)

Thanks for the diagrams. It help to see some of the various challenges we will face in the senior tests.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yep, my first thought when I saw this set up was that Tito would head for the water.



sterregold said:


> Breeze Michigan Flyways
> 
> This was a really nice test. The land blind was likely the most challenging element (and the breaky water bird). The land sloped off towards the pond, so when some dogs hit the cover they sucked down to the water. The clostest mark was the flyer, so for other dogs it provided suction the other way.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Shelly, your comments are very helpful so that I can see what problems the dogs had. Since I looked at the photos before you had put the comments up, it's especially interesting because I analyzed each one in terms of what I thought Tito would do.
And on this one, I thought for sure the Tito "more water" Monster would want to take more water, so I was right.



sterregold said:


> Breeze SH at Marshbanks
> The water blind in this one was challenging as they hit the mud flat at an angle and a lot of dogs wanted to just square off to the cover on the side instead of carrying the line to the back corner. The islands on the marks were also tempting for cheaty dogs on the way out. Quite a few dogs got up on them. The left mark also provided suction that made some dogs unwilling to get up on the mud flat as well--they wanted to take more water.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Whew, some of those look pretty hard, just got done reading all of them. Honestly (and I'm not just saying this!!) I like your tests the best. We need to run under you!
Please tell me that photos #10 and #13 were NOT tests set by judges who are judging at Backwater!!!!!


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Whew, some of those look pretty hard, just got done reading all of them. Honestly (and I'm not just saying this!!) I like your tests the best. We need to run under you!
> Please tell me that photos #10 and #13 were NOT tests set by judges who are judging at Backwater!!!!!


The judges in #10 are from Connecticut, so you are likely safe there unless you make the trek to NYS. As for Backwater, one of the judges from 13/14 is judging with one of the judges from 11/12. The judge from 11/12 is one of my favourite judges, and a wonderful Golden fellow who really wants the dogs to succeed. I expect he will keep things reined in. My dogs have earned Junior, Senior and Master legs from him.

If you want to run under me you are going to have to travel this summer--at the moment I am only judging in Canada! A WC/I/X and my first Master!


----------



## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Thank-you Shelley for posting the setups. 



sterregold said:


> If you want to run under me you are going to have to travel this summer--at the moment I am only judging in Canada! A WC/I/X and my first Master!


Are you judging anything way out here in the West?


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Only in Ontario--and those may well be the only ones I take this year. I am the test secretary for two regular hunt tests, the Master National and a field trial this year, as well as wanting to qualify Breeze for the Master National here and finish her CKC Master, and get Bonnie ready for SH. So kinda thinking I have enough on my plate!


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Nice photos and explanations. Very helpful!


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

I should preface my remarks as an observation, rather than a judgment.

I am not a believer in so-called Senior set-ups or Seasoned set-ups, but rather fieldwork that is within the scope of a dog's developmental skills. Having been a field trial pro, I had to win in any class I ran in, and that gave me a different perspective. I had to do better, train and handle better, or I would not win. In that venue you can't just be "good enough".

I believe that's a good rule of thumb for Hunt Test folks. Train first; test later. If your dog is now running and doing well at set ups in training that are are at the Master/Finished level, you'll do fine in Senior or Seasoned. If he's routinely eating them up, and can competently run set ups at a Qualifying (FT) level, he'll probably do fine in Master/Finished.

Train at a higher level than you'll compete. That's a winning strategy, and one that will save you money and regret. It's a lot more gratifying to go home with ribbons than excuses.

EvanG


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I would agree with that approach Evan. The purpose of showing these actual tests was to give them an idea of the variety of tests they might see so that they can assess whether the dog would be overwhelmed or underwhelmed in these situations. If the test seems intimidating, or iffy for the dog then they are not ready to run it. For example my Winter succesfuly ran the tests indicated this summer and last fall, but in the same time he was also the bye dog in a couple of Master tests and did those marks. Sure there were factors we had to contend with in the tests he ran, but we had the tools to deal with them because he had been training higher. I had a good idea of what to expect though necause I have watched a heck of a lot of tests over the years by going and marshalling or gunning for the clubs to which I belong, or even just going to watch tests--unfortunately these economic times make that much harder than it used to be--with the cost of gas now it is a much harder decision to just go and watch and blow a tank of gas for the sake of gaining that experience. Pictures don't show all of the nuances, but at least they'll give some point of reference for self-assessment.

Having a realistic notion of what to expect when you are making that first venture into a new level is important so you can accurately assess if your dog is ready or not--I know I saw far too many people at the tests I ran who were just giving it a hail Mary, or were shocked or overwhelmed by what their dogs were asked to do in Senior. Their expectations of the test, and notion of whether they were challenging their dog in training, were wholly at odds with the reality of what the dogs had to do in the tests. A lot of grumbling about the tests being too hard in a couple of these, but the reality was the dogs simply were not ready. So if folks getting ready to make the leap have any notion that they might be tempted to make those statements if asked to run the hardest scenario shown then they are not ready, and need to be challenging their dog more.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I have never seen a senior test run, and these were incredibly helpful to me. As I look at them, my gut reaction is, "we can do this". 
As I commented in another thread, the weekend will cost me $500. Unless I have at least SOME notion of what to expect, I could be throwing the money away. Conversely, I could be passing up a double SH, which is pretty rare, when he has a very good chance to succeed.
So the diagrams that Shelly provided were incredibly valuable to me.
As I've said before also, Dan firmly believes in training above the level you are preparing to run.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

this is probably a silly question...if for some reason your dog is drawn to run first, and you've never seen a SH before, could you ask the marshall to change your run order or are you stuck?


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> this is probably a silly question...if for some reason your dog is drawn to run first, and you've never seen a SH before, could you ask the marshall to change your run order or are you stuck?


You can always ask--and if you put it politely with that explanation many marshalls will want to try to help you out--it is at the marshall's discretion, however. Most of the time, they will be able to wiggle it a bit, but if it is a small entry, or there are pros entered who are over at Master, the marshall will have to work with who they have, and generally the preference to run in as close to order as possible. The judges also appreciate not having to flip back and forth in ther books.

I know Dan is used to running HRC, so for purposes of assessment, SH is harder than Seasoned. People I know who cross over tend to run Senior when their dog is doing good Finished work in training.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Shelly, and thanks for putting up with my newbie questions. It's sure nice to have someone to ask.
Dan says Tito would have no problem at all with Seasoned, and is running finished level marks/blinds on land. (He says we probably won't run seasoned with him, just finished??) So that's very helpful to know that means he's probably okay with senior level...ON LAND!!


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

sterregold said:


> I would agree with that approach Evan. The purpose of showing these actual tests was to give them an idea of the variety of tests they might see so that they can assess whether the dog would be overwhelmed or underwhelmed in these situations.


They’re very good. Far better, in fact, that many Internet sketches. Each one made me think of drill work.


sterregold said:


> If the test seems intimidating, or iffy for the dog then they are not ready to run it.


Amen! Keep spreading that message! I call it the “wish & a hope syndrome”; running a dog the owner knows isn’t really ready, but hoping for good luck.


sterregold said:


> For example my Winter successfully ran the tests indicated this summer and last fall, but in the same time he was also the bye dog in a couple of Master tests and did those marks. Sure there were factors we had to contend with in the tests he ran, but we had the tools to deal with them because he had been training higher.


Sounds like you’re doing it right. When Winter is smashing those tests in training, day after day, then it’s time to go run at that level!


sterregold said:


> Pictures don't show all of the nuances, but at least they'll give some point of reference for self-assessment.


I’ve seen some good You Tube videos of tests also. Perhaps posting some of those may help as well? I'll be glad to help.:wavey:



sterregold said:


> Having a realistic notion of what to expect when you are making that first venture into a new level is important so you can accurately assess if your dog is ready or not--I know I saw far too many people at the tests I ran who were just giving it a hail Mary, or were shocked or overwhelmed by what their dogs were asked to do in Senior. Their expectations of the test, and notion of whether they were challenging their dog in training, were wholly at odds with the reality of what the dogs had to do in the tests.


I hear you! That’s why it would be so helpful to new Hunt Testers to go and watch at least one or two before entering. (see “wish & a hope syndrome” above).


sterregold said:


> A lot of grumbling about the tests being too hard in a couple of these, *but the reality was the dogs simply were not ready*. So if folks getting ready to make the leap have any notion that they might be tempted to make those statements if asked to run the hardest scenario shown then they are not ready, and need to be challenging their dog more.


Amen again! All of which is why I prefaced my remarks as an observation.

Keep spreading the good word.

EvanG


----------



## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

sterregold said:


> You can always ask--and if you put it politely with that explanation many marshalls will want to try to help you out--it is at the marshall's discretion, however.


*Most* marshals would, but there is always that one...

However, on your first SH test, on Saturday, you are probably going to have a pro or two that wants to get the Senior out of the way and get over to the Master. Look for the big trucks and let the marshal know you are dog 1 but you are willing to run between anyone who needs to run a couple of dogs and get out. They will usually appreciate that.

On Sunday, it is tougher since the master is winnowed down and pros will tend to get go there first.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks! 
On Sunday, it will no longer be my first SH test 



Tatnall said:


> *Most* marshals would, but there is always that one...
> 
> However, on your first SH test, on Saturday, you are probably going to have a pro or two that wants to get the Senior out of the way and get over to the Master. Look for the big trucks and let the marshal know you are dog 1 but you are willing to run between anyone who needs to run a couple of dogs and get out. They will usually appreciate that.
> 
> On Sunday, it is tougher since the master is winnowed down and pros will tend to get go there first.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I love to marshal and if someone approached me by asking "This is my first SH and I would love to be able to watch a few dogs run before me, but I'm dog #1. If there are others who need to go before me that is 100% okay with me (wink wink)." I wouldn't have a problem with it and if there were a pro who needed to go to another stake or someone with two dogs too close together in the running order I would bump them. HOWEVER -- I really don't think I'd bump others if just to put the #1 person further back because they thought it was in their best interest. Someone else may want to run last so there is more scent at the marks, someone else wants to run halfway through because the sunlight will be better, blah blah blah -- you can see why it's most fair to stick to the running order. It's not the club's responsibility to make sure you are familiar with a SH test before running. The judges will give you ample time to ask questions AND get up ON the line before or after the test dog so you can see the field as you will see it when you run. 
The only surefire way to not be first is to not show up. No one will care if you are a little late and it might get you what you want (run after watching others) but you will miss the handler's briefing and test dog.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Anney, that's exactly what I had in mind. If I could watch a couple dogs, even ONE, go before me it would help me to know what to do with the gun and all.

"This is my first SH and I would love to be able to watch a few dogs run before me, but I'm dog #1. If there are others who need to go before me that is 100% okay with me (wink wink)."


----------



## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

I think if you explain it to the marshall at the handlers meeting. There will be more than enough volunteers to run ahead of you.
Just tell them you like to see a few dogs run ahead of you so you can get an idea of what's going on.
I marshal also and I would try to make sure you understood the test before putting you in line. Up to a point then you have to get your "feet wet" 
Actually I would probably walk with you up the line.
If you have a question *ASK IT*


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Barb if you are not using a handler's gun regularly in training, you need to be.
It can be anything, a heeling stick, a blind stake, a broom handle, a golf club. Anything about 3 feet long can be a "gun." You are expected to handle it correctly at a hunt test and to shoulder it and can be failed if you either do not shoulder the gun or point it at a judge! Please practice using a handler's gun EVERY TIME you train so it become second nature to you.
Besides the fact that it will be an aid in marking for the dog if they learn to swing with the gun.
And if you are going to run HRC finished you will have to train with the real gun A LOT. I have trained with a real gun and poppers a fair amount and run a few seasoned & finished tests and still I feel it is a hindrance and I am not used to it. I cannot imagine showing up at a finished test having never shot the gun. In fact they probably would not allow you to handle the dog. They will go over gun safety but they won't teach you how to use it that day, and you are expected to load, discharge and open the gun proficiently in UKC.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I do need to get the gun out. Dan has been making me use one, but more to teach Tito to mark off the gun than anything else. I will make a serious effort to handle the gun or a stick at least enough to get comfortable with it. Last time we were training Dan said he has a child's gun he's going to let me use, his gun is really heavy and is quite a hindrance for me.
I don't plan to run Tito myself in HRC/UKC tests, I'm going to let Dan do it, strictly because of the gun. I will never, ever be comfortable enough handling it to worry about the gun, the duck call, the whistle, the bucket, the dog, and not tripping over my own feet. Besides, Dan insists he wants to run Tito in the Grand (!) and we both feel he should handle him in finished if he's going to run him in the Grand Hunt.
So much to learn. 
On another note, I watched a few SH tests on youtube. I have a really slow connection, so I only watched a couple of shorter ones. I need to try to find some that were run more in my area, the ones I saw had cover that was almost mowed grass on the land series, and the water, well, we'd call that a small puddle around here. They must have been running in areas of serious drought. I tried searching for tests more in my area but gave up because my computer is being so annoying.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Here's one from baCK IN 06.


Land series












Water Series


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Swampcollie, those are great photos. That's a lot more what I had envisioned rather than the youtube videos I saw. Your water is much more like what I thought we might see, as is your cover.
Did they run the marks first, or the blind first on the water series?


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

The marks were run first.


----------

