# New Golden in Training



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

To have a solid foundation, a talented dog can be through swim-by and well-prepared to run those levels working with a good pro or experienced, dedicated amateur every day in 4-6 months from what I have seen of dogs trained by the pro I day-train with. There is a lot to fit into that time: obedience foundations, FF, CC, 3HC, T and TT, WaterForce, Swimby, 3LP, and Blind drills, plus marking work. Transition work to build the skills and confidence for complex marking situations and multi-factored blinds will take longer.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

goldlover68 said:


> *Question is 3-4 months normal timing for initial field training, with a goal to have her ready for JH WC, and SHR testing?*


No. Even for an exceptional dog with a very experienced, exceptional trainer, formal Basics (which is what you badly need to reach your goals) require a good 6 months. I happened to be sitting next to the late Rex Carr when he was asked how long he thought Basics should take for most dogs. He was very direct. "About 6 months. If it takes much longer than that I'm suspect of the dog. If it takes much less, I'm suspect of the trainer. 

This is the foundation for a lifetime of fieldwork. Here's what it consists of.

*The components of Basics in order*

1)	“Here”
2)	“Heel & Sit”
3)	“Hold”; automatically evolves to Walking “Hold, Heel, Sit”
4)	“Fetch”; ear pinch, which evolves into Walking “Fetch” & “Fetch-no-fetch”, e-collar conditioning to “Fetch”
5)	Pile work, including Mini-pile, Nine bumper pile; AKA Force to pile
6)	3-handed casting; teaching the 3 basic casts – “Back” and both “Over’s”, including 2-hands “Back”
7)	Mini tee; includes collar conditioning to all basic commands, transferring to the go, stop, cast functions in micro dimension as preparation for the Single tee. Also includes De-bolting
8)	Single tee
9)	Double tee
10)	Water tee with Swim-by

Skip any of this and you're cheating yourself and your dog.






And mind you, this is just the foundation. All the more advanced skills are built upon this foundation. Part of the charm of fieldwork is that the learning goes on and on - for you _and_ your dog.

EvanG


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Yeah, the ones I have seen get through in 4 months were very talented dogs, whose owners had a lot of training background, so they came in for basics with a really solid obedience foundation already....


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Whoa. He asked if she could be trained for Junior & Started in 3-4 months. Unless the dog is a real dud I can't imagine any decent pro not being able to accomplish this. You could easily have a dog trained through basic obedience and force fetch and marking at a Junior level in that time frame. Believe it or not, not every dog in Junior has been through swim by.....


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

It depends on the owner/trainer's perspective. Never, in over 35 years of training retrievers, have I recommended to a client that they develop their pup with the goal of running lower level stakes. Even when one of them ended up as the national #3 Derby dog with 7 wins/49 points, we were developing her for training at the highest level. I think it's destructive as an overall goal to shoot for a minimum. Knowing what I've come to know of these dogs I could not in good conscience suggest such a thing.

Junior & Senior stakes all over the country are littered with under trained, poorly controlled dogs being exposed to the uncontrolled environment of hunt tests in order to collect enough ribbons to get titles. Most of them are at an age at which they would be far better served to, at the very least, get their formal Basics completed and sharpened so they'll be able to become fully trained dogs that can perform at their real potential abilities.

I'm sure this is being misread by some as saying that running lower level stakes is destructive. That's not at all what I've said here. Just don't run under trained dogs in uncontrolled environments. That's backwards.

Before you begin running Juniors, get your Basics on board, and have your dog regularly running Senior level work in daily training. Before running Senior, have your dog well along in Transition and running well at Master level work in daily training. Train above...beyond...train for success, not failure. You put an MH on a dog, and few will ever remember a JH or SH.

An old axiom goes "Shoot for the moon! Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars!" Shoot for the minimum, and miss...well, you can fill in the blank where you'll land, but it's a waste of a good dog not to set high goals based on sound training. Good luck.

EvanG


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

goldlover68 said:


> Our new girl has been in field training up in IL for 9 weeks now. Our goal for her is to take her through to MH level. Of course she will also be a good hunting companion for me also. We are with a new trainer and I spent a half day with him last week observing how she is doing and reviewing with him about next steps and timing. She seems to be right on track and we hope to have her back by the first week of August. We will start hunt testing soon there after....both AKC and HRC.
> 
> *Question is 3-4 months normal timing for initial field training, with a goal to have her ready for JH WC, and SHR testing?*


Whoa hold on there. 

Is your goal to take the dog through Master or to stop at Junior? When you can answer that you can decide the training path you want to embark upon. 

If your goal is JH or SHR, you can get there in three or four months with a dog of average ability. You'll have a good basic gun dog that is obedient, has good mouth habits, can do basic single marked retrieves and very simple doubles. 

If your goal is MH or better, expect a minimum of six months of training, but probably eight for a dog of average ability to have completed the necessary basics to start on the path. The dog should be obedient, handling on basic land and water blinds, and doing multiple marks. 

The big difference is whether or not you want a dog that "Handles" (takes hand and whistle signals in the field). The process required to teach the dog to handle takes time.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I do have to say that you pup has a wonderful pedigree. Just great! Are you planning on doing field trials?


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

All,
Thanks so much for offering your thoughts on this training question. As I noted in my initial question our goal is to take her through *MH, HRCH, WCX, UH*...and maybe GRHRCH. Of course this is all dependent on how she does in training, and how well I do as her handler. We may run her in a Derby, if our trainer feels she has potential, but I have never run Field Trials, and she would be at a disadvantage because of my lack of experience running Trials.

We will continue to work with our trainer and take what time it takes to get her foundational work done. We have already committed to our trainer for Winter training in Texas. 

Again thanks for the good feedback,

CarlC


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

K9-Design said:


> Whoa. He asked if she could be trained for Junior & Started in 3-4 months. Unless the dog is a real dud I can't imagine any decent pro not being able to accomplish this. You could easily have a dog trained through basic obedience and force fetch and marking at a Junior level in that time frame. Believe it or not, not every dog in Junior has been through swim by.....


TOTALLY AGREE!
To say that a dog must, or even needs, to be through Basics before playing in a WC or a JH is poppycock! (And frankly, I would extend that list to Derby stakes, but that's just me ....)
Nothing bad enough to ruin a dog will happen if you play them ... if the pup totally turns you off and acts like an idiot while playing the game, of course you should stop playing and regroup. These games are for the owners as much as for the dogs. Play the games, have fun. Hey, even if something "breaks" as a result of playing the games before they are through basics it "ain't no big deal" ... really! That's why we train. The lower level suffixes can be attained while training for the higher level suffixes ... or even the prefixes.
Whether the goal is WCX, MH, or FC-AFC, get involved and play. 


Oh, the short answer to your question is YES (exactly as stated by K9design).

FTGoldens


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

FTGoldens said:


> TOTALLY AGREE!
> To say that a dog must, or even needs, to be through Basics before playing in a WC or a JH is poppycock! (And frankly, I would extend that list to Derby stakes, but that's just me ....)
> Nothing bad enough to ruin a dog will happen if you play them ... if the pup totally turns you off and acts like an idiot while playing the game, of course you should stop playing and regroup. These games are for the owners as much as for the dogs. Play the games, have fun. Hey, even if something "breaks" as a result of playing the games before they are through basics it "ain't no big deal" ... really! That's why we train. The lower level suffixes can be attained while training for the higher level suffixes ... or even the prefixes.
> Whether the goal is WCX, MH, or FC-AFC, get involved and play.
> ...


FTGolden's...I like your attitude as the only reason my wife and run hunt tests is because we love the game and the people/dogs we meet in the process. Of course we love our Golden's and I love to hunt with them and watch them work. But the money and time associated with hunt tests is about the game and people....


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I appreciate this thread Goldlover68, thanks for starting it, the varying responses are interesting. It makes it easy to see that there are different schools of thought on both the goals and the journey. 

I'm new to this and plan to have my pup achieve MH down the road but it's really about me finding the balance between getting the most out of her while still keeping it enjoyable for both of us. I can see where guidance is going to make the process more enjoyable for both of us - I want to train her myself but I don't want to be her biggest hurdle either. 

I see looking through Entry Express that most of the fails tend to be 4 and under, regardless of what they were working on. Progress that is solid, even if it isn't as quick as I'd like will keep it more enjoyable for me in the long run, I am ultimately about the relationship with my dog and the people I'm meeting along the way. I believe she has the makeup necessary to accomplish my goals as long as I don't get ahead of myself and rush things. I'm looking forward to that first orange ribbon though because it's a step along the path.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I don't mind taking my time with a dog. I agree with Evan when he says that there are undertrained dogs running hunt tests. 

I also believe that you have to train the dog that you have. What is right for one dog may not be right for another. Anyone who has seen my dog has said that she is a lot of dog. I am sorry that I entered her in hunt tests too early. I had to spend some time correcting unwanted behavior.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

gdgli said:


> I don't mind taking my time with a dog. I agree with Evan when he says that there are undertrained dogs running hunt tests.
> 
> I also believe that you have to train the dog that you have. What is right for one dog may not be right for another. Anyone who has seen my dog has said that she is a lot of dog. I am sorry that I entered her in hunt tests too early. I had to spend some time correcting unwanted behavior.


Experience is a good, but often unforgiving teacher, isn't it? Been there, done that. But more, I spent a pro career putting dogs back together for clients who participated in the same experiment. Sometimes it works out better than others. Sometimes not. Being lucky and being smart are different things. Be smart.

EvanG


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

nolefan said:


> I appreciate this thread Goldlover68, thanks for starting it, the varying responses are interesting. It makes it easy to see that there are different schools of thought on both the goals and the journey.
> 
> I'm new to this and plan to have my pup achieve MH down the road but it's really about me finding the balance between getting the most out of her while still keeping it enjoyable for both of us. I can see where guidance is going to make the process more enjoyable for both of us - I want to train her myself but I don't want to be her biggest hurdle either.
> 
> I see looking through Entry Express that most of the fails tend to be 4 and under, regardless of what they were working on. Progress that is solid, even if it isn't as quick as I'd like will keep it more enjoyable for me in the long run, I am ultimately about the relationship with my dog and the people I'm meeting along the way. I believe she has the makeup necessary to accomplish my goals as long as I don't get ahead of myself and rush things. I'm looking forward to that first orange ribbon though because it's a step along the path.


Nolefan...good post, I agree with your thoughts. I have ran three other Golden's in hunt tests, prior to the one I am working on now. In each test, pass or not, I learned something. I then trained towards what I had learned and in that way we were able to pass tests in the future. Just like in life, we learn more from our failures...Good Luck...

Goldlover68


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

How about training smart, paying attention, and adjusting your training (and playing) as the situation demands? 
Indeed, running a 6 month old, which has not even been FF'd, in a JH is not going to destroy the dog's potential. Going through the basics in a regimented fashion is not required to bring out the full potential in a dog ... indeed, the regimented fashion has a higher likelihood of retarding the dog's potential. Drilling a dog day in and day out frequently makes for an unhappy, unstylish dog ... which is neither fun to run, fun to train, nor fun to judge!
Adjust as necessary ... make the "program" fit the dog, NOT the dog fit the program! (BTW, I actually loathe the use of the word program because too many novice trainers understand that to mean that the steps must be religiously followed.) 
With regard to that 6 month old that ran in a JH before being FF'd, I am fairly knowledgeable about his progress. Indeed he even got his JH without FF or CC! And unfortunately, he never achieved his MH or even his SH .. but he overcame his trainer's inadequacies and failures, and miraculously got ... FC AFC. Lucky?
FTGoldens


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

You can only "play smart" if you know what the heck you are doing. I have been in the hunt test world for 13 years and I still feel I am a beginner. Especially after I spend some time with a few pro's....but I still love the chase....


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