# Unregistered bred with registered



## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

I think... the "right" way is not always the "possible" way.

From what I have read, the demand far exceeds the supply for well-bred golden retriever puppies.

It sounds like, in many ways, you and the breeders are doing your due diligence. Verify that the health testing was done, and then go with your gut.


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## Starlabs123 (Apr 3, 2017)

Ty . I did verify health clearances and also I can't figure out how to edit my post but the litter size was 7 not 9


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

You were able to see all health clearances on OFA and they were completed after 2 years of age? My concern would be that the owner bred her female against the breeders wishes if she was sold on limited registration vs the dog never came with registration. Wasn't sure which it was. If it's the latter, I guess there's no harm in buying a pup if everything else checks out but I wouldn't expect to pay over $500 max. Clearances are fairly cheap and without registration the seller probably hasn't bothered with titling her dogs and she doesn't have to pay a stud fee if the sire lives in the backyard. So they're breeding for nearly 100% profit.

Also, how does OFA publish clearances online without a registered name? I've never had to look up clearances for a dog that wasn't AKC registered.


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## Rlmitchell72 (Apr 2, 2017)

I'm new to the forum and we are soon-to-be first time Golden Retriever owners (picked out Harvey last week and will be picking him up April 25). It's so hard to wait!!

I'm not saying I have any good advice, but what I can tell you is that we researched and researched when I bought my Cocker Spaniel 13 years ago. I went with the most overpriced, but extremely reputable breeder, who offered all the clearances, guarantees, etc. Their dogs had incredible bloodlines, most of them champions with more blue ribbons than one can imagine, health clearances, "best of breed" etc. The reality was, that dog became known as our "million dollar dog." She has had nothing but health problems, behavioral problems, etc. She literally cost us a fortune in vet bills. Every health problem in the breed, she had it!

My second dog was also from a reputable breeder (Springer Spaniel). This breeder was in such high demand that you had to get on a list a couple years ahead of time to get a pup. Again, we researched and thought we were doing everything right. Once again, a slew of health problems, genetic issues, etc.

Once the dog is diagnosed with a health condition, the last thing on my mind is going after the breeder we bought her/him from. My concern was to protect and provide appropriate care for my "canine friends." 

The third dog we owned was a black lab that we bought from a woman who had only bred 2 times in her life. No health guarantees, no nothing. No AKC papers. He went to the vet once a year for his annual exam and vaccinations. He died at the healthy age of 16 after living life to its fullest. 

When we started looking for another dog this time around, we decided that we would "play it by ear" until we found the right friend and, once again, we would commit to being the best parents possible to that dog, no matter what. The lady we are buying him from became licensed with the state as a breeder only because she and a friend of hers from out of state wanted to breed their dogs (she has a beautiful female, he has a beautiful male) and each wanted a pup from their litter. The remaining pups are being sold for 1/3 the cost of what breeders charge and, well, we're happy to take a chance. We just haven't had much luck with breeders, we couldn't care less about AKC papers (I've never sent them in to the AKC for any of our dogs). And once we get a dog, it's history and paperwork doesn't matter much to us. 

Other, more experienced owners may have different advice for you, but I would say, if you love that pup, nothing will change that (unless of course you're hoping to breed yourself or create a show dog). You'll love it and face any life challenges that crop up along the way. My thought has always been: better for a dog with health issues be stuck with a family like us!


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Rhonda Mitchell said:


> I'm new to the forum and we are soon-to-be first time Golden Retriever owners (picked out Harvey last week and will be picking him up April 25). It's so hard to wait!!
> 
> I'm not saying I have any good advice, but what I can tell you is that we researched and researched when I bought my Cocker Spaniel 13 years ago. I went with the most overpriced, but extremely reputable breeder, who offered all the clearances, guarantees, etc. Their dogs had incredible bloodlines, most of them champions with more blue ribbons than one can imagine, health clearances, "best of breed" etc. The reality was, that dog became known as our "million dollar dog." She has had nothing but health problems, behavioral problems, etc. She literally cost us a fortune in vet bills. Every health problem in the breed, she had it!
> 
> ...


May I ask what state the breeder is in? I've only ever heard of large scale breeders needing state licensing. Like breeders with 25 or more breeding animals.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

You never know. Or son bought our first golden to train as a duck retriever. Neither of the parents had ever been used for hunting. But the puppy--he was retrieving ducks at 6 months. No history of heart trouble in either parents or their lines. But we lost Scooter at 5 years 2 months to heart failure. It had nev3r ben detected and took us and our vet by surprise. Scooter was just rolling in the grass on his back, and went over dead.

I think if the parents have all the needed credentials, go for it. Sometimes "perfect" dogs have not so great litters for some odd reason, and other times dog with no credentials have marvelous litters. I have owned many many dogs in my almost 72 years--English Setters, a couple of Irish Setters, 6 goldens and 2 Great Pyrenees, some had great health and lived long lives, a couple taken by distemper back in late 50s. cancer from age 7 to 13 years of age.

Good luck with you puppy I think you will make the right choice.


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## Starlabs123 (Apr 3, 2017)

They are lifelong friends with their female dogs breeder and were given permission to do a one time breeding? the puppies are being sold for 525.00


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Did your breeder just tell you her dog had the clearances or did you see hard copies and/or verified them online? Heart/Eyes/Hips/Elbows. They should be listed at offa.org. You also need to see the males clearances.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

It's going to be hard to verify clearances without being registered. You have to put the registered name or number into OFA. Someone might know how you would verify without registered. Because I am not sure how you would look that up. But if they truly were sent in for grading by OFA and both parents have their clearances it sounds like it might be a good pet.


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

The only way to verify clearances on the OFA database for an unregistered/mixed breed dog is to look it up the microchip number or a tattoo number. The downside is that neither are required to get the clearances, so if you don't have the information, it's impossible (as far as I know) to verify the clearances you're looking at are for the right dog.


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## Rlmitchell72 (Apr 2, 2017)

I'm in Maine. They require a state license to sell any animal for a fee. Honestly, the license really doesn't mean a thing, in my humble opinion.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Some people use the term Reputable too lightly. I am going to go out on a limb here and say the parents more than likely do not have all 4 health clearances in accordance with GRCA. I would be shocked if they did. 

If you liked the parents and the breeder, then take the chance. Does the breeder have a contract?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Rhonda Mitchell said:


> The lady we are buying him from became licensed with the state as a breeder only because she and a friend of hers from out of state wanted to breed their dogs (she has a beautiful female, he has a beautiful male) and each wanted a pup from their litter. The remaining pups are being sold for 1/3 the cost of what breeders charge and, well, we're happy to take a chance. !


I think this story makes no sense. There's zero reason to be state licensed unless you are required to because you are making many many puppies. Most breedings (or at least many breedings) are done w dogs from another state. Taking a stud puppy or keeping a pick puppy is typical as well. 
So were I you, I would be very worried because at least what you have related here is stinky like a non-truth has been told. And to use all those reasons as a reason to sell cheaply tells me only that you are dealing with a HVB who is being less than truthful on probably many aspects of the breedings.


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## Rlmitchell72 (Apr 2, 2017)

Prism Goldens said:


> I think this story makes no sense. There's zero reason to be state licensed unless you are required to because you are making many many puppies. Most breedings (or at least many breedings) are done w dogs from another state. Taking a stud puppy or keeping a pick puppy is typical as well.
> So were I you, I would be very worried because at least what you have related here is stinky like a non-truth has been told. And to use all those reasons as a reason to sell cheaply tells me only that you are dealing with a HVB who is being less than truthful on probably many aspects of the breedings.


Maine does require a license: 7 § 4163. Dog or cat vendor's license
A person may not advertise for sale, sell or exchange for value more than one cat or dog under the age of 6 months in a
12-month period unless that person has a valid animal shelter, kennel, breeding kennel or pet shop license or a valid
vendor's license issued under this section. [2007, c. 702, §36 (AMD).]

Maybe I'm too relaxed. I don't know. I just haven't had the best of luck with breeders and have had great luck from the "roadside" puppy stops. It could be just coincidence I suppose.

What is an HVB?

The truth for us is that we're in love with this pup. If we found out tomorrow that he was not purebred and had some other mix in there somewhere, we'd still love and adore him. Yeah, we'd be disappointed that we were lied to, but...he'd still be our forever friend. We're hoping he's a healthy boy, but if he's not, well, he's coming to the right home who spares no expense on their animals' comfort. Purchasing from a breeder hasn't changed the health outcomes in our experience. As far as being AKC, I have had papers on two of my other dogs but have never bothered to send them in. 

Am I missing concerns aside from health? (which, don't get me wrong, is a BIG one, but there are no guarantees no matter what in my experience). I'm not planning to show or breed, I don't need a dog that meets all this special show criteria, etc. What am I missing? Little Harvey is just as cute as can be and he has those eyes that just make you melt  That's good enough for me.


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## ellisda1 (Jul 24, 2013)

I'm sure you realize that clearances on parents are no guarantee of health in the offspring. Good breeders care about the overall health of the breed in general, and the clearances help to eliminate parents that might pass on deleterious traits to the offspring. If you've fallen in love with a specific pup you'll probably end up taking it home, and you run the same risks as someone who picks a pup from a breeder of registered stock.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

Not the same, but NOT person in my family has/had diabetes. Talking parents, brothers & sister, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins. Yet I have it. I had FIVE ppock marks when I had chicken pox--Mama even took me to the doctor to make sure it was chicken pox. Then my ster and one brother came down with it--from me and they were covered head to toe, even in mouth. My 2ed brother did everything in his power to catchit from me, and then them, (he wanted to get to stay home from school for a week), but he never caught it. (youngest brother not born then.) Years later, his wife and then their son had it--he still didn't catch it. 

You just never know how things are going to go. As you said, you have gotten pups from very reputable breeders and had problems. We once got an English Setter that was top quail dogs--and she was so gun shy it was unreal. And son got golden from breeder who had never hunted his dog--and the pup was retrieveing at 6 months (of course that was instinct). You are in love with this puppy. Maybe it is just meant to be. I honestly believe you take a chance no matter where you get the puppy--reputable breeder, BYB, pound, rescue. And over my life, I have gotten dogs from all 4 of those sources.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Rhonda Mitchell said:


> Maine does require a license: 7 § 4163. Dog or cat vendor's license
> A person may not advertise for sale, sell or exchange for value more than one cat or dog under the age of 6 months in a
> 12-month period unless that person has a valid animal shelter, kennel, breeding kennel or pet shop license or a valid
> vendor's license issued under this section. [2007, c. 702, §36 (AMD).]
> ...



If you are in love with the puppy already, I think you have already made your decision.


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## Starlabs123 (Apr 3, 2017)

I went to the OFA website to verify clearances. The dad had his and it showed a number beginning with letters SR and the female had a number beginning with letters NOREG .


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

There are people on the forum that will be happy to look up the clearances and explain... just provide the reg. number for them.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

There are two things involved in picking a puppy, your heart/emotions and your head/logic. Some people go all one way, some balance them. It seems to me that you have gone all heart. You are in love with the puppy so you should get it. Are these reputable/responsible breeders, no. I know of no stud dog owner that is responsible that would breed to an unregistered bitch. But honestly I can tell that does not matter to you. 

You have had bad experiences with previous dogs and I have no idea if they were well bred or not. So many puppy buyers lack the insider knowledge to really know that so it is possible they were and it is possible they were not. Every dog has some risk as eluded to, living things are never perfect. So either your previous breeders were good ones and twice you were unlucky enough to have a puppy with problem despite everything the breeder did to lower the odds. Or they were bad breeders who did a good enough job masquerading as good breeders that you took a high risk puppy without knowing it. 

This puppy is going to be a high risk puppy. Sure we are talking about odds and statistics so it could be a perfectly healthy puppy, just as a well bred puppy could have issues despite all the work a breeder does to lower the risk. 

The good news is the puppy is not super overpriced. Being unregistered I would expect 200-400 as there is chance it is not purebred. Your family is already committed and invested. More importantly, you are also not informed. You know what you are and are not getting. You are realistic about facing health challenges, so you should go for it. I would recommend looking in to health insurance if you have not already. 

Good luck with your new puppy.


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## Starlabs123 (Apr 3, 2017)

I appreciate everyone's comments, concerns and words of encouragement. I have never actually bought a dog from a private person. Our last dog was an adoption and we had him for 15 wonderful years before he passed away last year. I am going to go with my gut and get the golden puppy. I will repost once I get her and we are home. I'm going to think positively about the situation. The family we are buying from seems very caring and their own dog and puppies seemed healthy and well cared for. I will of course be getting pet health insurance for our new family member. I talked to my husband and kids last night and we agreed that we want the puppy and no matter what we are going to love it and take care of it emotionally and physically and in the end she will be loved greatly and taken care of... Now we just need a name


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## Starlabs123 (Apr 3, 2017)

I meant our last dog we adopted from a rescue in our local area.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Kmullen said:


> Some people use the term Reputable too lightly. I am going to go out on a limb here and say the parents more than likely do not have all 4 health clearances in accordance with GRCA. I would be shocked if they did.


Agree with Kelli --- the chances of both of these dogs actually having all 4 clearances (OFA hips, elbows, heart and eyes) is slim to none. If they can't even bother to register the dog, or buy a registerable dog, or reverse a limited registration, why would they bother with proper clearances? Shots, exams, and (perhaps) hip xrays from their local vet are not clearances. 

A puppy from this type of breeding could very well live a happy, healthy life and provide you with years of enjoyment. The price is right for a backyard breeding so at least you aren't lining the pockets of someone who is trying to deceive you and make a boatload off of it. I just can't in good consciousness say "GO FOR IT!" when in this day and age it is SO EASY for ANYONE to investigate best breeding practices and implement them before they decide to breed their dogs. 

I'm ALL FOR people getting the 4 clearances on their pets and having a litter, placing them in appropriate homes, and selling them in that $500-$1500 range. We actually need more breeders like this. Problem is, the overlap of breeders who actually do all clearances AND charge that little -- regardless of the clout or quality of their dogs -- is very small.


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## Starlabs123 (Apr 3, 2017)

Out of curiosity is the OFA website not a reliable source for health clearances then? What is the best way to determine health clearances then?


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

OFA is the only reliable clearance website. We just don't know what clearances the dogs have. For example, eyes have to be done every year. It's NOT a valid eye clearance if it's dated January 2016 for example. Heart has to be done by a cardiologist. It's NOT a valid heart clearance if it says practitioner. Hips and elbows have to be done by 2. Any earlier is not a valid clearance.

Can you post the dam's OFA page please? I've never seen an unregistered dog on OFA before and I'm really curious.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

http://www.ofa.org/results.html?all=unreg

is the list of unreg dogs
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals is the very long list of noreg dogs (the Golden on the first page is Belle no reg tested for DM)I went through the first 12 pages, and Belle is the only Golden I saw, not sure what order they are in but there are hundreds of pages.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Starlabs123 said:


> Out of curiosity is the OFA website not a reliable source for health clearances then? What is the best way to determine health clearances then?


Why would you wonder this? OFA is the only publicly verifiable clearance site. It's the way to go if you want to see clearances on dogs. If they pass they are published. If they don't pass they are only published if the owner initials the permission to release abnormal results.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Prism Goldens said:


> Why would you wonder this? OFA is the only publicly verifiable clearance site. It's the way to go if you want to see clearances on dogs. If they pass they are published. If they don't pass they are only published if the owner initials the permission to release abnormal results.


That's assuming the owner submits them to OFA to be published. Some do not.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Rhonda Mitchell said:


> I'm in Maine. They require a state license to sell any animal for a fee. Honestly, the license really doesn't mean a thing, in my humble opinion.


We don't know if the OP is in Maine- I was calling the story odd because it is odd, as it is quite common to do a breeding for the bitch owner and the stud dog owner to take a pup. For something commonly done to be told to puppy people is what's odd to me. 
Most states do not have this legislation, and since we don't know where she is, the whole getting state licensed to have a puppy of her own and for the stud dog owner selling the remainder seems odd to me as well. Unless of course she is in one of the few states who require this. 
HVB is a high volume breeder. They do often breed lots of litters and sell them cheaply. They'd have to be licensed in almost all states.


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## Starlabs123 (Apr 3, 2017)

I'm very confused now because both parents are on the OFA and it shows all four tests as normal or good but people are saying vet records aren't proof. So is the OFA website just a site anyone can update?


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Is there a reason you won't post the reg#'s or names and let someone check it out for you?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Starlabs123 said:


> I'm very confused now because both parents are on the OFA and it shows all four tests as normal or good but people are saying vet records aren't proof. So is the OFA website just a site anyone can update?


OFA is the ONLY reliable database for clearances. I think the skepticism comes from never having seen an unregistered dog with clearances listed in OFA. Can you post the links?


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Prism Goldens said:


> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> 
> is the list of unreg dogs
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals is the very long list of noreg dogs (the Golden on the first page is Belle no reg tested for DM)I went through the first 12 pages, and Belle is the only Golden I saw, not sure what order they are in but there are hundreds of pages.


That's pretty interesting. I used the search feature to find every female "NOREG" Golden age 2-6 listed with hips, elbows and eyes. I counted 6 that were actually unregistered that had final clearances. Wouldn't let me narrow it down by heart too though. 

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

You know what I take it back. If you click on "Advanced Search" add "NOREG" in the OFA/CHIC/Registration # field and select Golden Retriever, a million different dogs come up. 

Here's a sample dog : Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

I just still can't quite wrap my head around why someone starts out breeding with an unregistered dog. I mean, we all know AKC registration is no guarantee of quality but it is a guarantee of purity, it's just sort of a no-brainer. Even if an owner "forgets" to register their dog with AKC as a puppy, you can still do it at any time in the animal's life, for an extra fee. AKC WANTS dogs to get registered so they'll jump through hoops if the lapse in registration is legit (i.e. parents are both registered). Anyways, interesting, you learn something new every day.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

OFA is a legitimate site.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

The number of dogs I have owned and that most people have owned is not an accurate case study when it comes to determining the best place to purchase or adopt a pet from. 

My personal experience is in rescue for several years (Goldens and Labs plus a few other retriever types). I was on the board and did everything from intakes (interviewing owners, temperament testing the dogs), counseling people who wanted to give up a dog as well as people who wanted a dog and fostering. We had 200+ dogs come through our doors every year and I typically fostered about 12 per year and spent time with several of them, temperament tested most of them and read all of their intake paperwork, foster and adopter updates. Our rescue's goal was to get these dogs before they got to the shelter and went nuts or were adopted out to the wrong family as back then shelters were not so great at matching families to dogs, it was first come first served as long as you had your paperwork and check in order. 

We had maybe one dog per year from a reputable breeder who did not know that the owner was turning the dog in. Those breeders either took the dog back or donated money to our rescue to care for the dog and allowed us to find them a good home if they were unable to due to age, health or the other issues. Nearly all dogs were AKC registered and we usually had their pedigrees and other paperwork. They varied in where they came from, but most came from breeders like this who were not puppy mills but also were not great breeders. More the BYB, pet type breeders. There were health issues for certain, but the majority of these dogs had temperament issues. Some of these dogs were excellent family members and had good health and often in that case, were were shocked. All luck!

My issue is that I don't like to gamble when the odds are not in my favor. My other issue is that I don't like to encourage poor breeding practices.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Thread drift.........

Trying to think of reasons someone would do the clearances but not register their dog.

One reason may be that the one or both parents of the unregistered dog was on a limited registration and they were not to breed him/her/them.

Another one I am thinking of is again limited registration but many of the doodle breeders are getting clearances on the parents of the doodles

How very sad there are so many unscrupulous people out there.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Wasn't there a different post not long ago... something about 5 generations later unregistered dogs were given AKC numbers? I don't remember exactly and this may be a really dumb question but thought I would ask.


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

I searched for NOREG, golden retriever, female, born sometime in 2013 (OP said the female was 3.5), and an OFA report date between 2015-2017 (around 2-4 years old). 89 results. Of the 89, none have all four required clearances.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Yes, UR registered dogs can produce SR fully registered dogs in only one generation. That thread is under registration/pedigree at the bottom on the forum list of subtopics.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Maybe that's why she won't give the names or breeder of the dogs...


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

puddles everywhere said:


> Maybe that's why she won't give the names or breeder of the dogs...


The OP has a right to make the decisions that she feels are right for her and her family. If she chooses to not provide anymore information, that is her right too.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

You're absolutely right, why is non of my business.


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## Rlmitchell72 (Apr 2, 2017)

You are correct. There's no turning back at this point. We're committed to our Harvey, and definitely plan on purchasing health insurance. After my cocker spaniel's nearly $15,000 in vet bills, I can't imagine being without it. We will hope for the best with Harvey, but are prepared for the worse should it arise.


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## Rlmitchell72 (Apr 2, 2017)

Best of luck with your puppy! I'm feeling the same way you are about taking whatever comes our way. 

Besides, there wouldn't be any humans left on earth if we decided to breed according to healthy bloodlines throughout the generations  Maybe we're going too overboard with dogs. (My "not so new age" take on things)


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Rhonda Mitchell said:


> Besides, there wouldn't be any humans left on earth if we decided to breed according to healthy bloodlines throughout the generations  Maybe we're going too overboard with dogs. (My "not so new age" take on things)


It is important to remember that dogs are not people. If you are a lover of purebred dogs and I'm going to assume you are since you are on a breed forum and are looking to buy a golden, you are looking at a closed gene pool. Humans usually are not (and when they are it is not good, look up the blue Fugates or the health of the European or Egyptian royal families). 

Did you know that based on the K9Data statistics their sampling of goldens has an average coefficient of inbreeding of 8.71%. That means the average golden in the K9Data information the average Golden is more inbred then the offspring of a first cousins. Responsible breeders might be going overboard but they're doing so to keep the breed viable and healthy so future generations can continue to have a golden retriever as an option. That is why testing and selection is so important and why it is dangerous to anthropomorphize in order to excuse poor breeding practices.

On a sidenote they're absolutely are humans who get tested before considering a pregnancy if there is a suspected genetic issue in their family history.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Laura, I was going to send you a pm to thank you for taking valuable time out of your schedule to help people on this forum. I decided it didn't need to be a private thank you. 

I am grateful to you and other experienced folks like Prism, KMullen, Tahnee, K9design, etc. for continuing to spend your free time on this forum attempting to inform the public about how to find and recognize a good breeder and a well planned puppy and how critical not cutting corners is to the breed and to the individual dogs. (I know it feels like banging your head against a wall sometimes, I've been too tired this week to pipe up.) What you're doing is so, so important. This forum and the breeders and fanciers who made time here to educate me over the years have made an incredible difference in my knowledge about Goldens and opened up a whole new world to me. Sharing your hard earned knowledge is a gift and a blessing to the people who come looking for guidance. It's really a blessing to the breed as a whole because it's the front lines of educating the public that helps make progress in small steps, you can't change the world but you can change your corner of it. Thank you.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Awe thanks.:--shyly: 

I certainly do go in spurts because it does take time away from other pursuits. We really do have some folks that are very experienced and dedicated to the breed. I am so thankful for them all. 

I am still learning and plan to forever. I hope the information I share which does tend to issue center around health certifications and conformation showing helps someone. 

I think it is especially important that puppy buyers have full information before making their decisions. So, even though I post nearly identical stuff all the time and quite frequently it does not change a decision, it does hopefully make people aware of the risks that accompany it. At that point they have the knowledge to make their best decision which is always theirs to make.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

LJack said:


> It is important to remember that dogs are not people. .....
> Did you know that based on the K9Data statistics their sampling of goldens has an average coefficient of inbreeding of 8.71%. That means the average golden in the K9Data information the average Golden is more inbred then the offspring of a first cousins. Responsible breeders might be going overboard but they're doing so to keep the breed viable and healthy so future generations can continue to have a golden retriever as an option. That is why testing and selection is so important and why it is dangerous to anthropomorphize in order to excuse poor breeding practices.
> 
> On a sidenote they're absolutely are humans who get tested before considering a pregnancy if there is a suspected genetic issue in their family history.


You are 100% correct in this. And it is so dangerous to excuse poor breedings. Managing the breedings we choose to do should be more than going to a friend's dog (saw one this week that just amazed me but I am always in awe of how little it seems like some people do in the research front) and more than using the dog in the yard with the bitch. If we're going to breed Goldens, we should educate ourselves enough to make good choices, and not try to cut corners and truly use the best stud dog for the bitch about whom we have been honest with ourselves as to her lacks. There are no perfect dogs, but we can attempt to correct what we can, and not put a future burden on puppy buyers who just want a pet. Pets have the most important job.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

All puppies are little souls that need to be loved.

Whether it be a rescue, a puppy mill, a BYB or a reputable breeder, all these puppies deserve to be loved.

As a potential puppy buyer, it is up to us to do our research, think of our homes, and think about what risks we are willing to take and what expectations we want from this puppy.

As Laura stated above, it sounds your heart chose your puppy - it sounds like you did use your head to do your research, but your heart won, sometimes the puppy that finds us, is not always the puppy we were looking for. That little soul needs to be loved, and we will be looking forward to seeing pictures of him in his new home.


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