# Advice needed; breeder wants to keep dog



## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Doesn't sound fair to me but I know nothing


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I don't know any particulars about the situation, but I really feel for both parties. I doubt it is any kind of purposeful bait & switch if it is a good breeder, but rather the result of agonizing over a puppy that is turning out way nicer than expected or maybe the breeder got attached bc there were only two and she formed a bond(?). The truth is that breeder's breed for themselves if they are not breeding for the wrong reasons, and these are very difficult decisions to make until the babies are 8 or 9 weeks old. I have been in both positions- as a prospective buyer hoping and praying there will be a puppy for me and has a breeder I sat on my dock and cried over letting my favorite puppy go to a great home instead of keeping him. The process, bc it involves living beings and bonds, has so much grey area. You have to keep in mind the puppy you finally get is the one meant for you. The breeder should return your deposit though.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I think it was entirely unprofessional of the breeder to not warn you that this may happen. If she was open to keeping a puppy from this breeding and there were only 2 girls, she should have known that this could happen. I'd be at least a bit upset if I were you as well. Most reputable breeders don't pick a puppy for their buyers until the pups are at least a few weeks old and starting to show their personality. She should have had some idea by about 5-6 weeks that this girl might possibly be worth keeping. I agree she should give you the option of taking your depostit back if you choose not to wait for another puppy. Who's the breeder with a pup available in 2 months? Now you've got to do research on the parents of that litter.


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## Eabeal (Feb 9, 2014)

I agree--I think you should've been given fair warning that this was a possibility. Hopefully you will find your perfect puppy in the end!


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

ashjar said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I've been working with a breeder that came highly recommended to me on GRF. We've been in touch for months, and she told me I was at the top of her wait list for a girl. The puppies were born, with only two in the litter (one boy, one girl). The breeder contacted me, asked me if I was 100% committed to adopting the girl, and when I said I was, she cashed my deposit check. She then sent me multiple emails with pictures of the dog she called "my girl," arranged a date for me to get the dog, etc. Now, with two weeks before this date, she emailed me to say that she has decided to keep the girl for herself to expand her breeding program. She wrote that the "good news" was that a breeder 3 states away was holding a dog for me that would be available for adoption 2 months later than planned.
> 
> I know things don't always work, but this seems like an especially cruel bait and switch. Once she had me commit to the dog, sent pictures of her calling her mine, and cashed the check, I rescheduled professional conferences, cancelled meetings with colleagues, rearranged travel plans, etc. so that I could pick the girl up on the planned date and then could be working from home full time to care for her for the first several weeks after adopting her. I was happy to make these plans to care for my new family member. Now, however, I'm left without many options, and having spent a lot of money and forgone professional opportunities with no puppy. I spent so long researching breeders, looking at pedigrees, and simply waiting for this puppy to be born that the thought of doing it all over again is exhausting. Do I have any recourse? Am I crazy for thinking this is totally unprofessional on the part of the breeder? Do you all have any other advice?


*Simple!! Who is the breeder??*


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## SunnynSey (Jan 17, 2015)

I understand where both sides are coming from, but I also believe the breeder should have given you a heads up that there was a possibility of this happening, even if it was an inkling of a chance. You are certainly entitled to your deposit back, that is without question. I can only imagine how disappointed you must feel, but I am sure there is a special puppy out there waiting for you.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

It is beyond unprofessional. Especially since the breeder cashed the check and sent you pictures of *your* pup. I would personally contact said breeder and demand he/she keeps her end of the bargain which is not a pup months later especially since you had to make personal/work accommodations based on her misleading you. 
To me keeping your word is more important than anything. And this is where I would contact my attorney. It is not just about your money back. It is much more than that.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

I do not blame you for being angry and upset. The breeder made a commitment to you, which was set in stone when she cashed your check and began sending you pictures of the puppy. She is obligated to honor her word and commitment to you. At the very least I would contact her and explain to her specifically how the cancellation has impacted you. Point out how you had rearranged your life, as well as the financial impact her actions have had on you and that you expect her to compensate you for your losses. Another puppy from a different breeder months from now is not an appropriate solution. Has that dog even been born yet? Perhaps after she realizes how seriously you are affected by her cancellation, she will reconsider. You may want to contact a local attorney to discuss your options.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Completely unprofessional and unacceptable. I understand that breeders want to keep the best but if she thought that it was a possibility she would keep the pup for herself, she should have never cashed your check or promised you anything. Finding another puppy for you was good on her part but it doesn't forgive what she's done. Have you told her how disappointed you are and all the hoops you jumped through?

Other than this HUGE snafu -- do you like the breeder? Perhaps you could offer to co-own the dog with her, you keep her, but breeder can show & breed her in the future? I know that may not be anything you're interested in (particularly now that this has happened) but MANY small time breeders would LOVE that opportunity. You can't keep everything you breed and a great home willing to keep a bitch for you could be the perfect answer.

I absolutely would NOT contact an attorney at this point. It really is still her dog, and she doesn't have to sell it to you. She does, however, have to return your deposit since she did not produce. I'm sure any sane person would do this and I assume if it doesn't work out, that will be the case. But legally you still have no claim to the dog.


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

Max's Dad said:


> I do not blame you for being angry and upset. The breeder made a commitment to you, which was set in stone when she cashed your check and began sending you pictures of the puppy. She is obligated to honor her word and commitment to you. At the very least I would contact her and explain to her specifically how the cancellation has impacted you. Point out how you had rearranged your life, as well as the financial impact her actions have had on you and that you expect her to compensate you for your losses. Another puppy from a different breeder months from now is not an appropriate solution. Has that dog even been born yet? Perhaps after she realizes how seriously you are affected by her cancellation, she will reconsider. You may want to contact a local attorney to discuss your options.


 
Calling DanaRuns .......


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## ashjar (Oct 26, 2014)

Thanks, everyone, for your kind responses. I'm going to think on this and look into this other breeder.


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## kellyguy (Mar 5, 2014)

I can understand the breeder suddenly realizing that she might want to keep a puppy, but once she cashed your check and sent you photos calling her "your" puppy she crossed a line and is obligated to deliver.
Unfortunately, unless she decides to give you "your" pup, there isn't likely a good resolution to the situation. I wouldn't want a poisoned relationship with my breeder caused by involving attorneys, nor would I refrain from strongly making my position understood by the breeder.
Hopefully some reasoned communications can resolve the issue.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Unfortunately this breeder has already muddied the waters. I have thought about this since I read it last night. I have been so lucky to have never dealt with breeders like this, either backyard or reputable. Before and after getting the puppy or adopting the dog (Darcy) I had full trust in the breeders. While the contract is a plus, none was needed - a word and a hand shake was all that was needed. 

Co-ownership (which I never think about - seems odd to me) should have been proposed by the breeder instead of "I decided to keep her instead". At this point in time I would personally be hesitant to co-own a dog with a person whose word means nothing at all. 

An attorney needs to look at the actions (cashing the check) combined with the language in the emails. The breeder promised said product, accepted payment and then failed to deliver on the promise. It does not necessarily have to go to court, but before I think further I would personally like an expert advise. 

The only reason I can personally see on the side of the breeder would be health issues with the pup. But then full disclosure should have been made.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

It's really easy to judge from an armchair. Certainly, I would be very upset if I were in your shoes, but I find that in messy situations like this, there are often facts that are not always shared that make apparently irrational decisions (like cashing your deposit and then wanting to keep the puppy) make a lot more sense in context.

So I'm _incredibly_ sympathetic to any frustration or anger you're feeling. I would be heartbroken. However, I wonder if there's more to the story that we're not hearing from the breeder. Just because we can't think of what that might be from our armchairs doesn't mean those extenuating circumstances don't exist or that they wouldn't change our minds if we heard them.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

I don't know that cashing the check makes much difference especially if there is not a contract that has been signed. Our breeder collected a "deposit" when we confirmed our desire for a puppy but only after the litter was born - we had an oral agreement that the deposit would be returned if we decided we did not want the puppy. The breeder was careful (before the litter was born) to not promise anything. 
I cannot imagine a breeder who, 2 weeks before the pups are to go home, changes his/her mind for reasons of KEEPING the puppy. I have heard of breeders who have withdrawn the sale when they become concerned about potential owners.
Your situation really is horrible for you and brings into question the honesty/integrity of the breeder. I would certainly try to follow up and explain your concerns. Promising a pup from another litter in 2 months assumes a LOT - i.e. that the litter will be healthy,that you'll like the puppy, etc, etc.
I hope it works out- i really feel your pain and disappointment!!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

The whole issue of deposits is tricky. I'm glad I'm not a breeder and have to figure it out. On one hand you as the breeder don't want to be left with 8 week old puppies and buyers who dropped out, on the other hand, as a breeder you want to leave your options open that a deposit eliminates. I have a very good friend who got in a heap of trouble some years ago because she cashed a sizable deposit on a puppy ---- the buyer turned into a very needy nutcase and she decided she wouldn't sell her a pup, then told the buyer she didn't have the deposit money in the bank anymore and would wait until she sold "her" puppy and give it back. Can you imagine? Really bad.


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## The life of Piper (Feb 24, 2015)

I think you should ask for your money back and request first pick of the next litter. This is extremely unfair!!!


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

Beware of bad advice if even well-intentioned bad advice. Unless you consider your deposit back as making you whole, and the extent of your total damages, do not immediately request simply your deposit back. Don't hesitate to consult an attorney, but keep in mind, the monetary extent of your loss is the exact amount of your deposit, and nothing more unless you suffer additional losses. Until you suffer a loss further related to this breeders actions, for example, additional cost to replace your contracted puppy, you do not know what's your full monetary loss is therefore don't request a lesser amount just yet. Cashing your check makes this a binding contract. You may not be fully successful to your satisfaction in a court of law. But know there are far better ways to collect damages from this breeder. Please tell us who the breeder was so others can avoid this damage in the future. This breeder is clearly using the breeding stock titles and clearances to negotiate fraudulent contracts. Also, in what state does this breeder reside?


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Personally I would demand my deposit back with interest. 

She may have the right as the breeder to decide to keep the puppy, but cashing your check and hoping you'd accept another breeder of her choosing is wrong on so very many levels.

I would not want further dealing with this breeder in any way, shape or form.


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

I just hate to hear about breeders treating buyers this way. I have heard other stories like this of buyers feeling sure they are getting a puppy, deposits being taken, then being dropped out of the blue at the last minute. It's not right. I guess you're right to look into the other litter and see if that will work for you. But this type of insensitivity and poor communication, bordering on dishonesty, is very unfortunate.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

thomas&betts said:


> Please tell us who the breeder was so others can avoid this damage in the future. This breeder is clearly using the breeding stock titles and clearances to negotiate fraudulent contracts. Also, in what state does this breeder reside?


I am sorry, but that is making a LOT of assumptions for so little information. I really, really feel for the OP because I have had puppies I had my heart set on only for it to not work out, but I also hugely respect them for not slamming or naming the breeder. IMHO the op is showing integrity of the highest level. 

I don't agree with what the breeder did based on the info given. As a breeder she should have let them know their was a possibility of not getting a puppy, and if she promised than she needs to honor her word.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

As a breeder, I would absolutely hate to do that to a puppy buyer. The breeder should have known before if she might have wanted to keep a puppy if it turns out and should have been honest and upfront with you. Mistakes happen. The breeder did try and make it better and refer you to another litter. I know it is not the best, but I do not think the breeder is evil. This is her litter (her dogs). She does not have to sell you a puppy.

I am so sorry your are having to go through this though. This is always why I hold a puppy back for myself regardless.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

I too feel bad for you. But with such a small litter I'm really not surprised. As was mentioned, good breeders breed to better the breed, and they need to be able to prove their litters in the show ring. Good breeders are accountable to the whole Golden Retriever community and are willing to let the AKC Judges and other Golden breeders critique their stock. I'm waiting too for a puppy, and he will not be ready until next week, but I still understand that anything can happen before the deal is done, and I may end up losing out on this litter. The breeder needs to do what is best for the puppies, and sometimes she knows as a pup gets older that he/she will need a job that may not be suitable for a pet home, at least at first. I too would offer to show or let the breeder show, and let the breeder have breeding rights. But then again I already do that, and it's a huge expense to the owner. Hope all works out and you can get a pup within your timeline.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I am so sorry you are having to go through this. I don't like broken promises from anybody and surely your heart is broken and that you are very disappointed. The breeder should not have promised you a puppy if she had an idea that she might keep it. I'm not in the breeder's shoes, so I can't know for sure where she's coming from. I hope you can get another puppy from another litter soon. At the very least, get your deposit back. I wish you the best of luck in your Golden puppy endeavors.


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

kfayard said:


> As a breeder, I would absolutely hate to do that to a puppy buyer. The breeder should have known before if she might have wanted to keep a puppy if it turns out and should have been honest and upfront with you. Mistakes happen. The breeder did try and make it better and refer you to another litter. I know it is not the best, but I do not think the breeder is evil. This is her litter (her dogs). She does not have to sell you a puppy.
> 
> I am so sorry your are having to go through this though. This is always why I hold a puppy back for myself regardless.


*FRAUD is not a mistake!!*


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

Carmel said:


> I too feel bad for you. But with such a small litter I'm really not surprised. As was mentioned, good breeders breed to better the breed, and they need to be able to prove their litters in the show ring. Good breeders are accountable to the whole Golden Retriever community and are willing to let the AKC Judges and other Golden breeders critique their stock. I'm waiting too for a puppy, and he will not be ready until next week, but I still understand that anything can happen before the deal is done, and I may end up losing out on this litter. The breeder needs to do what is best for the puppies, and sometimes she knows as a pup gets older that he/she will need a job that may not be suitable for a pet home, at least at first. I too would offer to show or let the breeder show, and let the breeder have breeding rights. But then again I already do that, and it's a huge expense to the owner. Hope all works out and you can get a pup within your timeline.


I would not let the breeder renegotiate your terms of the contract. She or he agreed to sell a puppy, accepted partial payment on the puppy, cashed payment for puppy (whether partial or full) and at this point, terms of the contract are non negotiable. I don't care if the breeder wants to renegotiate on whether or not you get a cat instead of a dog, and then insist on you accepting the cat, you at that point are being defrauded! Why some breeders on this site would make excuses for this fraudster, unless they think this is good business practice is beyond shameful.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I have been in the position of the OP, and it is horrible. But everything happens for a reason. I will say that this is why I do not take deposits from people until I know I have a puppy for them. And I tell people, I will not tell you "You are getting a puppy" until you are definitely getting a puppy. To do otherwise just isn't right to me....but I have been in the position where a breeder decided to keep a puppy the day before he was to come home. This was many years ago though, and in hindsight, I am happy it happened as she is someone who, I have learned, I do not have much respect for in this breed.

As for the fraud, etc. I would be careful to make such allegations on limited facts. What if one of the puppies had died? What if there is something wrong with the puppy that the breeder has not communicated to the buyer? What if the terms of the contract actually say that the breeder can choose not to sell a puppy to this buyer and return the deposit? I would just be careful making accusations. 

And I will say, under the circumstances, knowing that the breeder found the OP another puppy is a good thing. That means they realized that they needed to do their best to help this puppy buyer. I have done the same thing for the people who were on my list for both of my litters and didn't end up with a puppy for one reason or another.

OP, everything happens for a reason. This wasn't your puppy for whatever reason. I hope you find your puppy soon.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

thomas&betts said:


> I would not let the breeder renegotiate your terms of the contract. She or he agreed to sell a puppy, accepted partial payment on the puppy, cashed payment for puppy (whether partial or full) and at this point, terms of the contract are non negotiable. I don't care if the breeder wants to renegotiate on whether or not you get a cat instead of a dog, and then insist on you accepting the cat, you at that point are being defrauded! Why some breeders on this site would make excuses for this fraudster, unless they think this is good business practice is beyond shameful.


 Did the OP sign a contract?

*"fraud* is deliberate deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain." I very seriously doubt the breeder deliberately TOLD the OP that she could have the puppy because she already knew she would be keeping it! That is ridiculous! The breeder is losing money by not selling this puppy, so there is no money gain. 

Again, I am not sticking up for the breeder as I could never do this, but the breeder had a change of heart and it is her dogs/puppies. I am sure the breeder is refunding the deposit.

Everyone sues for everything now and I find that asinine.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

thomas&betts said:


> I would not let the breeder renegotiate your terms of the contract. She or he agreed to sell a puppy, accepted partial payment on the puppy, cashed payment for puppy (whether partial or full) and at this point, terms of the contract are non negotiable. I don't care if the breeder wants to renegotiate on whether or not you get a cat instead of a dog, and then insist on you accepting the cat, you at that point are being defrauded! Why some breeders on this site would make excuses for this fraudster, unless they think this is good business practice is beyond shameful.



TOTALLY DISAGREE! A DOG IS NOT AN ITEM FOR SALE. That's why there are SO many dogs in rescue and shelters. Too many uneducated people out there that think they can have whatever they want by plunking down some cash. If you think you deserve a puppy from a great breeder, I think you need to prove it. If you are not out there involved in rescue, showing, training, and putting your life and all your resources into helping and improving your breed, then just be greatful that some wonderful breeder is willing to consider you as a home for one of their beloved pups. Sorry but I've seen a lot and everyone here can see the problems all these newbies suddenly have when puppy comes home and there are "issues" and then have to be "re-homed" because they had no idea that this is not a new cellphone or tablet, but a living being.


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

thomas&betts said:


> I would not let the breeder renegotiate your terms of the contract. She or he agreed to sell a puppy, accepted partial payment on the puppy, cashed payment for puppy (whether partial or full) and at this point, terms of the contract are non negotiable.


In my experience a contract regarding things like health guarantees, etc., is signed when the buyer picks up the puppy and pays the balance due in full. I doubt there was a written contract signed with the deposit. I also think it's best to not take deposits until puppies are born and the breeder knows they have what the buyer wants. Then I would consider cashing a deposit check a commitment.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

The problem I see in this situation: a small litter was born, the OP was told she would get a puppy, *then* the breeder later decided no she's going to keep it. If it had happened in a different order (told she'd get a puppy, small litter born, so told no puppy) that would be more acceptable. Still very disappointing, but not outright offensive.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

You know what... I was reading this thread and vaguely thinking about assumptions.... and it's kinda an interesting thing how definitely people allow their perspectives to be colored by reputations of those being spoken of. 

What I mean is that if this were a very small breeder who is just starting up and doesn't have a lot of local connections and prone to making some beginner mistakes (like waffling about keeping a puppy or not) and not having a clear rule w/regards to deposits, etc... <- I think people would be a mixture of understanding and criticizing. Mostly understanding on the basis that you assume that the breeder just was in over their head to start with. 

And if this were truly one of the bigger names or friends-of type of breeders - I think you definitely would have a more prevalent gut reaction to defend and back up that other person without too much criticism. Or flip of that is I do see people being very inclined to criticize regardless of any excuses or background for personal reasons.

Um.... I've never actually been on a waiting list in a true sense. Only two times have we come "close"....

Danny - the breeder had us down for first pick between two litters. And generally the reason why she had us down for 2 was because we absolutely wanted a boy puppy, and the one "preferred" litter had a new mom and the breeder's experience is you never know what you will get with an unproven bitch. Basically. She turned out to be right in that there were only 2-3 females from that preferred litter, no males. 

Jacks was a similar thing in that I had a choice between two litters. The one litter - the female looked like my Danny. Very similar style and look and sentimentally, I was leaning towards her. But her litter was not born yet and she was a new mom. The breeder was willing to put me down for a boy and honor the deposit for a later litter if there were no boys. I just did not want to gamble with that, so went with the litter that the breeder actually recommended where there were 2 boys to choose from. 

Danny - we did not put a deposit down. It wasn't necessary.... per the breeder. She just took our name.

Jacks - I paid 1/2 the puppy price as a deposit, and signed a purchase agreement type thing right there. Which essentially said that we weren't out of the woods yet... if anything happened to the puppy, I'd have 100% of that deposit returned. If I backed out, I'd only get 1/2 the deposit back. 

To me - I think the OP should have had something similar in writing when she put the deposit down. Or even some kind of clear communication from the breeder that essentially said that until full price was paid and puppy taken home, the breeder could change their mind and deposit fully returned. 

The way that the OP's puppy was handled - to me was just tacky. All the more so if the puppy buyer is being sent 3 states away for an available puppy 2 months later. I'd ask for the deposit back and talk to other people locally to see if there are any spring puppies available.


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## Bree's Mom (Jan 27, 2015)

Sadly, I agree with most of the posts here. Taking it a step further, to me, this is not just unprofessional ... it is cruel. Had this breeder not asked specifically of your intentions... then cashed your check ... and then sent you PICTURES of your new ''family member" I might feel differently. She should be happy that this pup has more "potential" than she realized, instead her action seems incredibly selfish. 
I have a 9 year old that I love beyond words (also her sister our 6 year old love-bug). Because of my BB's age I am beginning to look myself for a baby. So, while I completely understand not naming this breeder who came so "highly recommended", at the same time that is troubling for a newbie like me. 
I agree that you should see a lawyer. I also apologize to you and the forum for my intense feelings about this and wish to say I'm so sorry you are having to go through this at all.


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

Some here either purposely miss the point or deliberately take a naive point of view. If one scenario of fraud is the only fraud you can see possible here, you should probably spend a little bit more time thinking this through. That is why I want to know who the breeder is and which state the breeder is located in. I'm sure there's been several fraud's committed by this particular breeder, and with a few details these frauds can be discussed thoroughly. How many puppies have been registered from her litters with the AKC. How many buyers have 1099 sellers for the purchase price of the puppies and were they reported to the IRS as income. Are the puppies coming from the stated parents, as there was an attempt in this case to get a puppy from another parent as a replacement. How often does it happen that the buyer doesn't know that a replacement puppy from another puppy mill is being sold to them. For example, Tfatwah says she has a litter of six puppies she has to sell. She registers the litter of 6 puppies, buys five from her neighbor the fellow puppy mill for $400, and sells them as "parents are AKC titled full clearanced puppies for $2000 each". As long as she is protected with limited registration in her written contract, using one description of ownership of the puppies, there is a limit to the damages that stop with that particular puppy. If breeding were allowed the damages would be virtually unlimited. Personally, I say don't sue this puppy miller. Just tell us who she or he is and let's get to the bottom of the fraud. By the way, my new red flag for buyers of puppies, how about the breeder that intends to keep a puppy. Now because of the shysters in the group, you need to scrutinize the contract further and have changes made to see to it that the breeder has to disclose which puppy is not being offered for sale.
Some find lawsuits asinine.
What I find asinine is kids raised and educated to be little crooks. They believe that nobody should have the right to deprive them of whatever they can steal. they believe they can live on the backs of working people without ever putting in a hard days work themselves, or in this case live on the back of animals without ever putting in a hard days work. They, just like Wall Street bankers, feel that nobody should have the courts or any recourse to resolve their frauds. This is their perfect little world.
*To the OP, the best chance you have of getting your chosen original puppy is to state who this breeder is. There is no risk to you legally, so long as you have proof of a cashed deposit check.*


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Here is some info that may be helpful to all when making posts here on the forum-


http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...in/173490-about-accounts-thread-here-grf.html


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Carmel said:


> A DOG IS NOT AN ITEM FOR SALE.



I don't really understand this statement. Ideologically I get what you mean but this is a financial transaction. 

When the OP paid a deposit it was given as a guarantee that she would get what she is paying for. When the breeder cashed the cheque it was as a guarantee that she would get her money.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Some here either purposely miss the point or deliberately take a naive point of view. If one scenario of fraud is the only fraud you can see possible here, you should probably spend a little bit more time thinking this through. That is why I want to know who the breeder is and which state the breeder is located in. I'm sure there's been several fraud's committed by this particular breeder, and with a few details these frauds can be discussed thoroughly.


 
I don’t really understand where “fraud” comes in. The behavior of the breeder is tacky (treating a puppy as belonging to somebody else for 4-6 weeks and then changing their minds with 2 weeks to go), but not fraudulent unless this person refuses to return the deposit. I assume the breeder is in the same state as the OP (South Carolina) and I gather that if a breeder was actually referred to this person, it was done so privately. And the OP is being mature and discreet in keeping that information private. You don’t have to turn every conversation on breeders (good or bad) into flame wars. Or speculation about how people file their taxes. 

My head is spinning with the conspiracy theories w/regards to registration fraud. Honestly speaking, if you are concerned about buying a puppy from a scam artist, that is where you really need to be careful about shopping for a puppy and understanding pedigrees and so on. Used to be that papers were gold standard for purchasing puppies and getting into breeding. That’s what we knew before really growing up in the dog world and finding out that you can’t just assume a dog is breed quality based on his pedigree, his breeder, his papers, or if he has full registration. 

A lot of people in breeding today do what they can to keep up appearances while they lack in many areas. They may be breeding dogs who are poor quality – while they have clearances. They may be breeding dogs who have clearances, but lack a history of clearances. They may not actually do clearances beyond prelims and breed the dogs as soon as they can. A lot of times you have people putting a lot of expense into marketing and sales, and they don’t actually put the money into the dogs they are breeding. 

Keep in mind, there are breeders out there who unfortunately pull and retire champion dogs who fail their clearances. And more frequently you have puppies pulled out of programs because they aren’t turning out right physical or mentally. I was talking with a lady I train with who is also a golden breeder (she does obedience/performance litters), and she told me that she had like seven dogs (either spayed or rehomed) before she finally had her first breeding quality dog. And she’s not personally a big breeder because there is so much risk for the bitches. And expense. Overall there is a lot of expense being “eaten” by the people who are thoroughly in this hobby. It’s not all making money off of everything you own – which you have with those less quality breeders out there. And there are a ton. 

About breeders keeping puppies back – generally speaking just my experience…. J The breeder had first pick. This means that until the breeder has made their pick, the rest of the litter is in hold pattern. That’s why like for example my youngest was 9 weeks old when I was the first pet person to make a pick. The breeders had already selected their picks and kept them separate from those puppies I picked from.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

thomas&betts said:


> Some here either purposely miss the point or deliberately take a naive point of view. If one scenario of fraud is the only fraud you can see possible here, you should probably spend a little bit more time thinking this through. That is why I want to know who the breeder is and which state the breeder is located in. I'm sure there's been several fraud's committed by this particular breeder, and with a few details these frauds can be discussed thoroughly. How many puppies have been registered from her litters with the AKC. How many buyers have 1099 sellers for the purchase price of the puppies and were they reported to the IRS as income. Are the puppies coming from the stated parents, as there was an attempt in this case to get a puppy from another parent as a replacement. How often does it happen that the buyer doesn't know that a replacement puppy from another puppy mill is being sold to them. For example, Tfatwah says she has a litter of six puppies she has to sell. She registers the litter of 6 puppies, buys five from her neighbor the fellow puppy mill for $400, and sells them as "parents are AKC titled full clearanced puppies for $2000 each". As long as she is protected with limited registration in her written contract, using one description of ownership of the puppies, there is a limit to the damages that stop with that particular puppy. If breeding were allowed the damages would be virtually unlimited. Personally, I say don't sue this puppy miller. Just tell us who she or he is and let's get to the bottom of the fraud. By the way, my new red flag for buyers of puppies, how about the breeder that intends to keep a puppy. Now because of the shysters in the group, you need to scrutinize the contract further and have changes made to see to it that the breeder has to disclose which puppy is not being offered for sale.
> Some find lawsuits asinine.
> What I find asinine is kids raised and educated to be little crooks. They believe that nobody should have the right to deprive them of whatever they can steal. they believe they can live on the backs of working people without ever putting in a hard days work themselves, or in this case live on the back of animals without ever putting in a hard days work. They, just like Wall Street bankers, feel that nobody should have the courts or any recourse to resolve their frauds. This is their perfect little world.
> *To the OP, the best chance you have of getting your chosen original puppy is to state who this breeder is. There is no risk to you legally, so long as you have proof of a cashed deposit check.*


You are being ridiculous... For one, you are calling this breeder a "puppy miller!" Why? You have no idea who the breeder is or how much time she devoted to her breeding program. You are very judgemental .


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## The life of Piper (Feb 24, 2015)

WHY EVERYONE FIGHTING?!?!? THE SIMPLE ANSWER IS WHAT THIS BREEDER DID WAS WRONG!!!! I do think some action should be taken, but remember, ITS ALL ABOUT WHAT THE PERSON WHO ASKED THE QUESTION (sorry, I don't remember your username). FEELS IS BEST FOR HIM/HER!!!!! :no:


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

OP, 

Do not take legal advice from someone on an internet forum. 

Sincerely, 

Michelle (a licensed attorney in California)


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

why does it matter so much that this person not post the name and location of the breeder? why are so many breeders in this forum so defensive of this particular breeder? Is it because if the name of that breeder was known, it would bea breeder just like yourselves who are active in the show ring and brag about championships while putting down every other breeder that doesn't show, or downright trash the European breeders and their championships as being unworthy.seems to me the best way to deal with this thread is to disclose the breeders name and allow the rest of the users to see how many times that breeder was recommended by other breeders that are friends. The victim here is the consumer trying to buy a healthy puppy, not your breeder friend.


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

I agree there needs to be consequences for breeders who breed unhealthy dogs and sell to unsuspecting consumers using different labels and tactics.I also believe that regardless of whether or not you show a puppy in the show ring AKC and have clearances it means you are selling healthy puppies. Some breeders appear to be money motivated and hide behindpoor breeding practices. When we find out one of those breeders is highly recommended by other professional breeders on this site, it should not be a surprise to you that this breeder and those that recommend them are called out for their behavior. The breeders on this site should not support these bad business practices but should be just as vocal in criticizing them.


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> OP,
> 
> Do not take legal advice from someone on an internet forum.
> 
> ...


*HHow many complaints to the California Bar does it take to have a lawyer disbarred? ANSWER: 2! This is exactly why I say I would not sue this puppy factory! Behind every smart criminal or thief is a lawyer. Once again, simply tell us who the breeder is and you will likely get the very same puppy you put your deposit on, otherwise you will likely get nothing because they will consult their shyster attorney.*


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## ashjar (Oct 26, 2014)

Wow, you guys are great. I've mainly only used GRF to research reputable breeders at this point, since as you know I have yet to get my puppy, but I'm totally impressed by your sympathy and responses. Thank you! 

I'm also grateful that so many of you appreciate and understand how sad I am about this. I've had some time to process all of this, and I completely believe that it was wrong for the breeder to let me get this far in the process and then back out. I should have been warned that I might not get the dog before photos were sent and the dog was referred to as mine. That being said, I don't have any reason whatsoever to think this person is a fraudulent breeder. I think they're looking out for themselves, and that sucks for me in this situation. I've spent hours at this point thinking about what I'd like to say to them, talking this over with friends, and just being generally stressed about it. I'm the type of person who would love to "go to the mattresses" on this so to speak, but at the end of the day, I just want a lovable companion with a good pedigree from a reputable breeder. It would be nice to recoup my costs or feel more compensated in some way, but the anxiety and effort that I'll surely feel in the process is probably going to outweigh the good I'll get from standing up for myself. And it's probably not likely to result in a puppy. So, I think I'm going to have to chalk this up as one of those lousy life experiences and move forward. But again, having a sympathetic ear has been really helpful, so thanks to all of you.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

thomas&betts said:


> why does it matter so much that this person not post the name and location of the breeder? why are so many breeders in this forum so defensive of this particular breeder? Is it because if the name of that breeder was known, it would bea breeder just like yourselves who are active in the show ring and brag about championships while putting down every other breeder that doesn't show, or downright trash the European breeders and their championships as being unworthy.seems to me the best way to deal with this thread is to disclose the breeders name and allow the rest of the users to see how many times that breeder was recommended by other breeders that are friends. The victim here is the consumer trying to buy a healthy puppy, not your breeder friend.


1st I have no idea who the breeder is and I certainly am not sticking up for this breeder. But, you have a weird way of associating byb vs reputable breeders. You tear any breeder apart that sells on limited registration and title them a BYB! Honestly, I don't know why you are so hung up on trashing a breeder without knowing all of the facts. It doesn't matter who the breeder is: European, byb, reputable... 

I don't know why you keep commenting on "people on here" referring to European breeders as bad!


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

thomas&betts said:


> *HHow many complaints to the California Bar does it take to have a lawyer disbarred? ANSWER: 2! This is exactly why I say I would not sue this puppy factory! Behind every smart criminal or thief is a lawyer. Once again, simply tell us who the breeder is and you will likely get the very same puppy you put your deposit on, otherwise you will likely get nothing because they will consult their shyster attorney.*


Again "puppy factory!" Why are you soooo judgemental?? Wow!!! How old are you?


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## The life of Piper (Feb 24, 2015)

ashjar said:


> Wow, you guys are great. I've mainly use GRF to research reputable breeders at this point, since as you know I have yet to get my puppy, but I'm totally impressed by your sympathy and responses. Thank you!
> 
> I'm also grateful that so many of you appreciate and understand how sad I am about this. I've had some time to process all of this, and I completely believe that it was wrong for the breeder to let me get this far in the process and then back out. I should have been warned that I might not get the dog before photos were sent and the dog was referred to as mine. That being said, I don't have any reason whatsoever to think this person is a fraudulent breeder. I think they're looking out for themselves, and that sucks for me in this situation. I've spent hours at this point thinking about what I'd like to say to them, talking this over with friends, and just being generally stressed about it. I'm the type of person who would love to "go to the mattresses" on this so to speak, but at the end of the day, I just want a lovable companion with a good pedigree from a reputable breeder. It would be nice to recoup my costs or feel more compensated in some way, but the anxiety and effort that I'll surely feel in the process is probably going to outweigh the good I'll get from standing up for myself. And it's probably not likely to result in a puppy. So, I think I'm going to have to chalk this up as one of those lousy life experiences and move forward. But again, having a sympathetic ear has been really helpful, so thanks to all of you.


You are very welcome! . Thats what this forum is for!! Keep me posted about what you end up doing please.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

thomas&betts said:


> *HHow many complaints to the California Bar does it take to have a lawyer disbarred? ANSWER: 2! This is exactly why I say I would not sue this puppy factory! Behind every smart criminal or thief is a lawyer. Once again, simply tell us who the breeder is and you will likely get the very same puppy you put your deposit on, otherwise you will likely get nothing because they will consult their shyster attorney.*


I am a licensed attorney and I put that to show that attorneys do not recommend taking advice from semi-anonymous people on an internet forum. I do not appreciate threats or being disparaged on here. I will let the moderators deal with this....


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

ashjar said:


> Wow, you guys are great. I've mainly only used GRF to research reputable breeders at this point, since as you know I have yet to get my puppy, but I'm totally impressed by your sympathy and responses. Thank you!
> 
> I'm also grateful that so many of you appreciate and understand how sad I am about this. I've had some time to process all of this, and I completely believe that it was wrong for the breeder to let me get this far in the process and then back out. I should have been warned that I might not get the dog before photos were sent and the dog was referred to as mine. That being said, I don't have any reason whatsoever to think this person is a fraudulent breeder. I think they're looking out for themselves, and that sucks for me in this situation. I've spent hours at this point thinking about what I'd like to say to them, talking this over with friends, and just being generally stressed about it. I'm the type of person who would love to "go to the mattresses" on this so to speak, but at the end of the day, I just want a lovable companion with a good pedigree from a reputable breeder. It would be nice to recoup my costs or feel more compensated in some way, but the anxiety and effort that I'll surely feel in the process is probably going to outweigh the good I'll get from standing up for myself. And it's probably not likely to result in a puppy. So, I think I'm going to have to chalk this up as one of those lousy life experiences and move forward. But again, having a sympathetic ear has been really helpful, so thanks to all of you.


Best of luck ashjar! It's not a very compassionate world out there. I hope you find the healthy puppy you're looking for... good luck!


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I am a licensed attorney and I put that to show that attorneys do not recommend taking advice from semi-anonymous people on an internet forum. I do not appreciate threats or being disparaged on here. I will let the moderators deal with this....


Who has threatens you?? Are you the breeder?


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## The life of Piper (Feb 24, 2015)

thomas&betts said:


> Who has threatens you?? Are you the breeder?


Who knows?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

No, I am not the breeder. In fact, I replied earlier that I had a similar thing done to me many years ago, and sympathize with the OP. I also stated that I do not take deposits until I know, with absolute certainty, that I have a puppy intended for someone.


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

The life of Piper said:


> Who knows?


In her rush to be offended, I think she missed my point. It suddenly became all about her:bowl:I guess she could sue me:uhoh:


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## The life of Piper (Feb 24, 2015)

kfayard said:


> Again "puppy factory!" Why are you soooo judgemental?? Wow!!! How old are you?


Maybe this person isn't as judgemental as you seem to think... Let's all just get along! COME ON PEOPLE!!!!!


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

thomas&betts said:


> In her rush to be offended, I think she missed my point. It suddenly became all about her:bowl:I guess she could sue me:uhoh:




Oh geez!!!


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

The life of Piper said:


> Maybe this person isn't as judgemental as you seem to think... Let's all just get along! COME ON PEOPLE!!!!!


Oh really? So calling the breeder a puppy miller and degrading lawyers is not judgemental? Ok...


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## The life of Piper (Feb 24, 2015)

thomas&betts said:


> In her rush to be offended, I think she missed my point. It suddenly became all about her:bowl:I guess she could sue me:uhoh:


Oh well... Let's just all remember that we are on the GOLDEN RETRIEVER FORUM!!!! As in, who doesn't love Goldens?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

thomas&betts said:


> In her rush to be offended, I think she missed my point. It suddenly became all about her:bowl:I guess she could sue me:uhoh:



Was I offended by your anti-Semitic comment? Why yes, you caught me. I found the use of an anti-Semitic term offensive. I suspect many others on here did too.


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## The life of Piper (Feb 24, 2015)

kfayard said:


> Oh really? So calling the breeder a puppy miller and degrading lawyers is not judgemental? Ok...


Hey chill! Just trying to make peace! Its just not that big a deal! Besides, we all have Golden retrievers, so let's all be nice! Don't judge, just being nice!!!


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> No, I am not the breeder. In fact, I replied earlier that I had a similar thing done to me many years ago, and sympathize with the OP. I also stated that I do not take deposits until I know, with absolute certainty, that I have a puppy intended for someone.


And yet you became offended by somebody taking a different point of view, is that how it works in open court?? I did see your post, if it makes you feel better. Actually had a long winded response mostly agreeingwith the line of reasoning but not totally with the post. Not to sound condescending, but there will be people in life that don't agree with your point of view and will raise their own points of view. It would probably help to not feel attacked when this happens!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

thomas&betts said:


> And yet you became offended by somebody taking a different point of view, is that how it works in open court?? I did see your post, if it makes you feel better. Actually had a long winded response mostly agreeingwith the line of reasoning but not totally with the post. Not to sound condescending, but there will be people in life that don't agree with your point of view and will raise their own points of view. It would probably help to not feel attacked when this happens!


As I said above, I find the use of anti-Semitic language to be offensive. It has nothing to do with disagreeing or agreeing on an issue.

I also would suggest not giving legal advice (or accepting it) from an internet forum. That was the point of my second post in this thread.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

The life of Piper said:


> Hey chill! Just trying to make peace! Its just not that big a deal! Besides, we all have Golden retrievers, so let's all be nice! Don't judge, just being nice!!!



This is a forum. We do not all have to get along : Being respectful arethe better terms to use


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## The life of Piper (Feb 24, 2015)

kfayard said:


> This is a forum. We do not all have to get along :


But we all own Golden's, so let's all act our age.


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Was I offended by your anti-Semitic comment? Why yes, you caught me. I found the use of an anti-Semitic term offensive. I suspect many others on here did too.


oh good grief, now I think I've heard it all. Your grasping!!! Common vocabulary is now anti-Semitic? Wouldn't I have to know that you are Jewish?? PLEASE..LAWYERS


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

The life of Piper said:


> But we all own Golden's, so let's all act our age.



And this was my comment earlier...


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

kfayard said:


> This is a forum. We do not all have to get along : Being respectful arethe better terms to use


*FINALLY , something I can agree with you on!!:*


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## The life of Piper (Feb 24, 2015)

kfayard said:


> And this was my comment earlier...


OK 
P.S. not being rude!!! Didn't join this forum to make enemies!!!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

thomas&betts said:


> oh good grief, now I think I've heard it all. Your grasping!!! Common vocabulary is now anti-Semitic? Wouldn't I have to know that you are Jewish?? PLEASE..LAWYERS


That is really shocking to know that such language is "common vocabulary" for you. It's offensive. End of story.


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## The life of Piper (Feb 24, 2015)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> As I said above, I find the use of anti-Semitic language to be offensive. It has nothing to do with disagreeing or agreeing on an issue.
> 
> I also would suggest not giving legal advice (or accepting it) from an internet forum. That was the point of my second post in this thread.


I do agree...


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## The life of Piper (Feb 24, 2015)

kfayard said:


> And this was my comment earlier...


Oh.... Don't be mad at me!  I hate making enemies. Wish I'd never joined the forum...


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

Anybody that wants to know what the word shyster is derived from please Google definition of shyster. Originally German. Not anti semetic, and exactly what I meant to say. Originally German not anti Semitic.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

ashjar said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I've been working with a breeder that came highly recommended to me on GRF. We've been in touch for months, and she told me I was at the top of her wait list for a girl. The puppies were born, with only two in the litter (one boy, one girl). The breeder contacted me, asked me if I was 100% committed to adopting the girl, and when I said I was, she cashed my deposit check. She then sent me multiple emails with pictures of the dog she called "my girl," arranged a date for me to get the dog, etc. Now, with two weeks before this date, she emailed me to say that she has decided to keep the girl for herself to expand her breeding program. She wrote that the good news was that a breeder 3 states away was holding a dog for me that would be available for adoption 1 month later than planned.
> 
> I know things don't always work, but any advice on how I should proceed?


The reality is that the pup is the property of the breeder. If he/she chooses to keep the pup that's the way it is. They don't HAVE to sell you their property. (I'm assuming you don't have a signed contract or signed purchase agreement with the breeder identifying this specific puppy as yours.) 

The breeder is obligated to return your deposit because they don't have a pup for you in this litter. You are not obligated to take a pup from a different litter, by another breeder in another state. 

This situation is actually very common with very small or singleton litters. Small litters like this require far more time investment on the part of the breeder to raise, and many will be bonded with the pup and decide to withdraw it from the marketplace and keep it for themselves.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

thomas&betts said:


> oh good grief, now I think I've heard it all. Your grasping!!! Common vocabulary is now anti-Semitic? Wouldn't I have to know that you are Jewish?? PLEASE..LAWYERS


So, I've been reading this with great amusement, as well as some sympathy for goldenjackpuppy, though you are probably less bothersome than a gnat to her. She doesn't deserve your onslaught though, she has been polite and respectful, and "shyster" is indeed an offensive word. I laughed out loud when you said German, not anti-semitic. My irony meter pegged out and broke.  You might want to read back through the thread, as I just did, and I think you'll discover that you've misunderstood goldenjackpuppy entirely.

And whoever said she was Jewish? Did you just assume that lawyers are Jewish? (Actually, I think her maiden name is of English and German origin, but what difference does it make if someone is Jewish?) I think you have made some assumptions and misunderstood some things. You also seem to have a grudge against breeders and show dog people, and you are "projecting" (that's a psychological term). I know goldenjackpuppy and count her as a friend, and I'm telling you that she's a quality person of very high character, and you have completely misunderstood her.

But hey, I'm a lawyer, too, so you'll probably discount what I've said. (Oh, and I'm not Jewish, in case you were wondering.) And I second what goldenjackpuppy said: taking legal advice from a semi-anonymous person on the internet is a _very_ bad idea. Heck, even taking legal advice from a licensed attorney in a forum thread on the internet is a pretty terrible idea. If you want legal advice, call or visit an attorney and have a full conversation with them.

As a lawyer, I think the OP has no recourse. Chalk it up to miscommunication and move on. You won't get "your" puppy, and trashing the breeder on the internet is, imho, the _least_ likely way to convince her to sell you that puppy. Lol! Imagine!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I've read all these posts and it seems we might be playing telephone on some of the facts stated- there were 2 puppies, one boy and one girl. The breeder decided two weeks before puppies would go home that she could not part with the girl. She went to the trouble to find another available puppy for the OP- and the OP is naturally upset. She's been looking at photos, etc and making plans for this puppy. But a deposit is just a deposit... and no GOOD breeder is doing this to crank out pets for people we do it to be able to continue our breeding programs. The pet producer who doesn't have a real program, no competition or history, they would not even consider keeping this puppy because they can just make more. I'd bet that the breeder hoped for a large litter, then had a small one, then had so much tied up in it that they felt sure they would sell the bitch... just to try to keep the breeding $ above water... with two puppies that'd be impossible. But when the bitch puppy turned out to be considerable for the breeder's program, of course (make that caps!) the breeder would keep her... 
when your litter is in the red, sometimes the only way to ever get out of the red is to stay deeper in it for a while. 
And if she is lovely, and promising, we should be glad she will one day contribute herself to the breed. I just can't see this breeder as a bad guy. I feel sure she was very conflicted, and in the end, had to do what was best for her breeding program. I doubt seriously she's got a lawyer advising her, and I doubt seriously she did this casually or without knowing she was causing some pain. I always hold back a puppy for myself, personally, because it's easy enough to sell a puppy but feelings get hurt when there's not one to sell and someone has been waiting. But having only one girl, that's a super hard corner to sit in, and I feel badly for the breeder and for the OP. 

Think of it this way- for those of us not breeding to make pets, we have to consider our breeding programs first and foremost so we can continue in the sport we love competing with dogs of our own breeding. Most of us do take deposits. Most of my own litters I have deposits on even a year in advance- when I can't possibly know I will or won't have a puppy for someone. I cash the checks. Cashing the check only says I have accepted a deposit on an as yet unborn puppy. No one signs contracts till they pick up their puppy- so the deposit is just there really to say the puppy buyer is serious about the litter, and is an acceptable puppy buyer to the breeder. 

I'm sorry for you, OP, and I am sorry for the breeder. It must have been a hard couple of days for you both. I think your attitude is healthy to be ready to move on, and I am sure you will get your deposit back. That'd be wrong to do otherwise.


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

Prism Goldens said:


> I've read all these posts and it seems we might be playing telephone on some of the facts stated- there were 2 puppies, one boy and one girl. The breeder decided two weeks before puppies would go home that she could not part with the girl. She went to the trouble to find another available puppy for the OP- and the OP is naturally upset. She's been looking at photos, etc and making plans for this puppy. But a deposit is just a deposit... and no GOOD breeder is doing this to crank out pets for people we do it to be able to continue our breeding programs. The pet producer who doesn't have a real program, no competition or history, they would not even consider keeping this puppy because they can just make more. I'd bet that the breeder hoped for a large litter, then had a small one, then had so much tied up in it that they felt sure they would sell the bitch... just to try to keep the breeding $ above water... with two puppies that'd be impossible. But when the bitch puppy turned out to be considerable for the breeder's program, of course (make that caps!) the breeder would keep her...
> when your litter is in the red, sometimes the only way to ever get out of the red is to stay deeper in it for a while.
> And if she is lovely, and promising, we should be glad she will one day contribute herself to the breed. I just can't see this breeder as a bad guy. I feel sure she was very conflicted, and in the end, had to do what was best for her breeding program. I doubt seriously she's got a lawyer advising her, and I doubt seriously she did this casually or without knowing she was causing some pain. I always hold back a puppy for myself, personally, because it's easy enough to sell a puppy but feelings get hurt when there's not one to sell and someone has been waiting. But having only one girl, that's a super hard corner to sit in, and I feel badly for the breeder and for the OP.
> 
> ...


Robin, I did take a standing in his or her shoes point of view while considering this situation. If only we knew all of the details it could verify that what you posted is the case, and not something much more inconsiderate. I also think it's healthy that OP has made a decision on how to proceed. I don't think he had to make this decision, but he sounds satisfied with his choice. If the more vocal breeders that show on this forum would take a less offensive and more respectful/less condescending tone with those that have questions or comments about breeding and the different types of goldens, opinions about those and similar breeders might soften a bit. Everybody on this board is free to form their own opinions about breeders, and if their choice of opinions is constantly attacked, it reinforces the negative opinion of those same breeders.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Last month when I went to an eye clinic, I witnessed a very hard reality in the breeding world. In a matter of minutes, your breeding plans can go out the window. The female Newfie that was behind me, did not pass her eye clearance. The reality was all that time, money and dreams that went into that dog went out the window. The woman was upset, and sat there and said, I guess the next step is to get her spayed.

Who knows what the breeder of this puppy had going on in the background. Being a reputable breeder is a hobby and not a business. 

Yes, it very sad that the OP had to be hurt like that, and hopefully the breeder has learned in the future to not promise anything until after the puppies have been evaluated.

I too have fallen in love with a dog ( this was from a shelter ) that the shelter pulled from us adopting - they passed us for all the 40 other dogs they had, except the one we really wanted. I totally understand how a person can fall in love with the dog before it is not even theirs.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

OK - I have not read thru the entire thread. Just a couple posts from known breeders on this forum. 

Frankly - this is exactly the attitude for which I would never dissuade someone from going to a golden back yard breeder. This kind of attitude. "It is my property, no matter what I have promised you and how much I have led you to the path of selling you a puppy but I can change my mind at any darn time I feel like it just because I CAN - you obviously other than a cashed deposit check do not have any contract or signed purchased agreement" - and I have seen this kind of arrogance time and time again from "reputable" breeders. Most recently in helping a woman get a puppy who was completely ignored by arrogant reputable breeders and ended with a girl puppy where..... a back yard breeder. I wish she did not need a girl as she has another intact girl at home or I could have directed her to a good honest and trustworthy breeder. Not many like this around, especially in the golden retriever breed. I have tried to move her towards flat coats as there are much nicer, less arrogance and ethical fat coat breeders out there than the golden breeders.

Sorry - will not and cannot put up with it. I prefer a person whose word means something. I prefer a person who does what he/she says. Not some arrogant breeder who will lead you on over and over again. This BS with long waiting lists, they can charge whatever they want and they can decide what pup you can have, when you can have it, when I decide I will sell it or when I want to back out of my promise, your emotions, life changes, work schedule changes be da**ed is completely BS made for gullible people to think they are getting some better, ohhhh also if I remember correctly it was called a "superior product". 
No wonder the "superior product" has to be sold on limited registration since the arrogance in dealing with the puppy buyers is evident of the fact that they have no clue nor do they really care who they sell the puppies to especially if they feel entitled to belittle the puppy buyer in such ways. And then they wonder why back yard breeders are the only options????


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

DanaRuns said:


> So, I've been reading this with great amusement, as well as some sympathy for goldenjackpuppy, though you are probably less bothersome than a gnat to her. She doesn't deserve your onslaught though, she has been polite and respectful, and "shyster" is indeed an offensive word. I laughed out loud when you said German, not anti-semitic. My irony meter pegged out and broke.  You might want to read back through the thread, as I just did, and I think you'll discover that you've misunderstood goldenjackpuppy entirely. Who said the OP should take any of my or anybody else legal advice. My opinion,what the simply state the name of the breederand let the details work themselves out.I don't care for the breeder was a lawyer or not, but I'd be willing to bet that withheld puppy would soon be given to its rightful owner.I don't know as many puppy mills pull tricks like thatso it's easy to make the connection that this is a reputable breeder after all. I would like to see this breeder held to account and possibly even shut down.you on the other hand would probably like to meet and consult this poor misjudged breeder. That's your choice.
> 
> And whoever said she was Jewish? Did you just assume that lawyers are Jewish? (Actually, I think her maiden name is of English and German origin, but what difference does it make if someone is Jewish?) I think you have made some assumptions and misunderstood some things. You also seem to have a grudge against breeders and show dog people, and you are "projecting" (that's a psychological term). I know goldenjackpuppy and count her as a friend, and I'm telling you that she's a quality person of very high character, and you have completely misunderstood her.
> 
> ...


NICE REDIRECT! I think is reasonable to believe when somebody screams anti Semite, they are at least Jewish if they are offended.
Did you at least Google the definition of shyster, or have most lawyers simply made the connection between shyster and lawyer. I always believed shyster to mean unscrupulous, and was surprised to see it means something much worse in German. apparently its meaning has changed somewhat through time, and now simply takes on unscrupulous as its meaning. as far as reading comprehension goes, who called any lawyer here a shyster ?


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

thomas&betts said:


> NICE REDIRECT! I think is reasonable to believe when somebody screams anti Semite, they are at least Jewish if they are offended.
> Did you at least Google the definition of shyster, or have most lawyers simply made the connection between shyster and lawyer. I always believed shyster to mean unscrupulous, and was surprised to see it means something much worse in German. apparently its meaning has changed somewhat through time, and now simply takes on unscrupulous as its meaning. as far as reading comprehension goes, who called any lawyer here a shyster ?


I'm not going to engage you. I just am responding to say that the dog in your signature is adorable.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

thomas&betts said:


> NICE REDIRECT! I think is reasonable to believe when somebody screams anti Semite, they are at least Jewish if they are offended.
> Did you at least Google the definition of shyster, or have most lawyers simply made the connection between shyster and lawyer. I always believed shyster to mean unscrupulous, and was surprised to see it means something much worse in German. apparently its meaning has changed somewhat through time, and now simply takes on unscrupulous as its meaning. as far as reading comprehension goes, who called any lawyer here a shyster ?


*You used the term in your post # 44. I am also offended by the term and I am not Jewish. *


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

Correct me if I'm wrong, I won't take offense. I think we are actually getting to the bottom of this over the top take offense to any opposing viewpoint to that of the very vocal professional / hobby breeder. Half of these people appear to be lawyers, which could explain why all of their puppies are sold on limited registration. If your sold a pet quality puppy for $1,800 as opposed to a full registration puppy or show puppy for $1800 and both puppies have been bred in a way that leads to health defects in later generations of litters, you will likely dictate to your buyer the terms including limited registration or puppy quality that would prevent huge settlements in the event of genetic defect pass down to future litters, all the while not disclosingyour profession as being a lawyer. Seems to me this would be an unfair negotiation tactic not disclosing the fact that you are a lawyer. You could also use your legal skills to try bulling opposing viewpoints (that may touch a little to close to home) on a Golden Retriever site at 10 p.m. at night. Perhaps I am just a NAT, but I would point out I do seem to be attracted to you people. I wonder why that is??:smooch:


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

T&B: why do you assume everyone posting is a breeder?


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

Coopsmom said:


> *You used the term in your post # 44. I am also offended by the term and I am not Jewish. *


I think what you're really offended by is this discussion. Several of the board bullies on several different topics have tried to stifle discussion, even going so far as to suggest that my signature picture was just too large. A lot of reaching and over sensitivity hoping to silence discussion about unscrupulous breeding practices and breeders? If you stop this discussion in person, you would likely be laughed at and ridiculed as being overly sensitive! LOL


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

This thread has run its course and there are some matters in this thread that are being reviewed for potential board violations. this thread is now closed


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