# Breeder warning!



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Welcome to the forum, although I'm so sorry you've found this board under such upsetting circumstances. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will give you some feedback. I believe mild SAS should still allow your dog to have a pretty normal life, but I don't blame you for being upset if your breeder's response was inadequate. 

I looked at the website for the breeder and she states that her dogs have all clearances but not all are listed on OFA (orthopedic foundation for animals) website. That doesn't mean they don't have the clearances but it does make it awfully hard to check. Hopefully someone on this forum who is a breeder can explain to you whether the breeder has a leg to stand on in breeding the sister after your dog's diagnosis. Are they full littermates? Could the sister still be a carrier even with a heart clearance? Hopefully some answers might make you feel better....

I'm so sorry for your worry over this. I hope you will check back here, this forum can be a wonderful resource for you.


----------



## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

What is SAS?


----------



## Vito2010 (Jun 3, 2012)

Fortunately my dog will live a normal life. However I checked with my vet before posting here. Both my vet and cardiologist said none of the dogs should be bred because the gene will continue to be passed to all pups with varying degrees of severity. I'm not here to bash the breeder although it's tempting. I'm posting to inform.


----------



## Vito2010 (Jun 3, 2012)

Sub aortic stenosis.


----------



## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Subaortic Stenosis SAS In Your Puppy

So sorry to hear about your pup. I ran across an article about SAS by a Vet PHD. Thought you might find it helpful. The link to the article is above. Just saw that your pup will live a normal life!! Great news!


----------



## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

Thanks, I still had to look it up but very informative.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

It's really hard to say what you are looking at here, as there is not a lot of history to go on. The sire of your dog does not have any clearances listed on OFA and only CERF on k9data.com. The dam of your dog has only a cardiac clearance listed on OFA, and that was done by a practitioner, not a cardiolgist. Hips can be done by OFA or PennHip, elbows by OFA, eyes by a veterinary opthamologist and hearts by a veterinary cardiologist (per the GRCA COE)It is also difficult given the pedigrees because doing heart clearances is not common in many of the European countries.

Would I breed Sherry, personally? No, but not just because of the heart issue. She does not have any clearances listed on offa.org or on k9data. She is too young to have final hip and elbow clearances.

It has long been felt that SAS in Goldens is an autosomal dominant with incomplete penetrance (this can vary by breed), which is one of the reasons it can be so hard to eradicate. Only one parent need to have it or be a carrier, in order to pass it down. It can seem to skip generations before popping up again.

Friends and I bred into one of the dogs with a history of producing SAS, once. We felt that since the dog itself was clear, and the pedigree between it and our dog was clear, we should be safe. We weren't. Several puppies (out of different bitches and different pedigrees) failed their heart clearances. Thankfully, all were Grade 1 but we cleaned house. All siblings of the puppies who failed were spayed or neutered. I had a gorgeous boy with all of his clearances, and he was neutered and placed. Of course, in this instance, we knew where the problem part of the pedigree was.


----------



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Vito2010 said:


> ?... Both my vet and cardiologist said none of the dogs should be bred because the gene will continue to be passed to all pups with varying degrees of severity...


I was afraid that was the case. I looked at the website again and can't find either parents of the current litter offered listed on OFA. Do you mind telling more about your contract guarantee and more about the breeder's response to your informing her about your dog's diagnosis? also your dogs sire and dam. That might be nice for someone who finds this thread trying to research the breeder. 

I respect your effort to be aboveboard and not bash the breeder, but the more info you give the better chance someone searching might find this. Thank you for sharing your story, people need to know this goes on and who is doing it.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

So wait .... you don't want to bash the breeder??? BUT you posted this as a Breeder Warning in two places on a public internet forum. It seems like that is exactly your intent to bash the breeder.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I hope the breeder does honor her contract, and takes this seriously.


----------



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Shalva said:


> So wait .... you don't want to bash the breeder??? BUT you posted this as a Breeder Warning in two places on a public internet forum. It seems like that is exactly your intent to bash the breeder.


I don't see bashing when he is posting facts.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I think that when you sign up for a forum that you had previously never been a part of .... 
and in TWO separate places post 
Breeder Warning 
naming the breeder and telling the tale so to speak 
the intent is to damage the breeders reputation and thus bash... 

are they justified... well perhaps... it doesn't seem like the breeder has all their ducks in a row... but call it like it is... the intent is to harm the breeder and keep people from going to them. 

I am not saying that they may or may not be justified... but I found the "I am not going to bash the breeder" comical when stated in a very negative post on a public bulletin board that they just joined.


----------



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I read through the breeders contract as listed on the website, it says any health guarantee is void after 6 months if you don't use the product they're pushing. NuVet.....


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Don't know anything about this breeder, but you must remember that bad things happen to good breeders. The heritability of so many golden issues is not a simple dominant or recessive trait. Many of the problems are multifactorial... We have only three diseases that we have a genetic test for. Those tests do not include elbows, eyes, heart, or juvenile cataracts. A dog with mild SAS is expected to live a normal life with no cardiac issues. What is your expectation of breeder compensation?


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I was thinking the same thing... if there isn't expected to be any impact to the life expectancy or ongoing issues then what is the compensation issue... for what???


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I'm guessing the OP wanted to be compensated for the echo that ID the SAS. However the contract clearly states, they will not compensate for testing! And they also state that you must feed Nuvet to have a two year warrentee. Never mind that all they will compensate you with is a new pup with the return of your current dog. Who would do that anyway?
I am more disturbed that the dam of the current litter will not be two until November.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Just looked at a book I bought, last year, published in 2011... SAS is thought to be autosomal dominant with variable expressivity... This book then goes onto state, that in Goldens, it appears to be autosomal recessive(and gives a reference). I do not advocate breeding without clearances, but you do not want to throw the baby out with the bath water in some situations...


----------



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Going by everything clearly revealed on their website, this breeder is obviously someone I would never choose, knowing what I've learned on this forum. I guess I am wondering, Shalva & SallysMom, what you all think is reasonable and correct for a breeder to do in this situation? 
(as far as the 'right' thing.) Would u contact all the other puppy buyers in the litter to let them know what had been discovered so that they could have their dog's tested? I am just curious about how you would expect this to be handled by someone trying to do right by the breed. I don't understand a lot about how the laws of genetics work, it does sound to me like not breeding the sister is the right thing to do? What am I not understanding? (I'm not talking about the puppy buyer being reimbursed, clearly the contract was violated, that's another story). Based on the opinions you both give on this board, I always feel I can count on you all to be good teachers on these issues.


----------



## Vito2010 (Jun 3, 2012)

Shalva. So you would rather me say nothing and let people buy puppies with health issues for $2500? Ok. Got it.


----------



## Vito2010 (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh and yes the contract does state no reimbursement. That's why I said I wasn't too upset about that. But when you're running a business and you screw up you don't just say oh well sorry to hear about my mistake then repeat.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

nolefan said:


> Going by everything clearly revealed on their website, this breeder is obviously someone I would never choose, knowing what I've learned on this forum. I guess I am wondering, Shalva & SallysMom, what you all think is reasonable and correct for a breeder to do in this situation?
> (as far as the 'right' thing.) Would u contact all the other puppy buyers in the litter to let them know what had been discovered so that they could have their dog's tested? I am just curious about how you would expect this to be handled by someone trying to do right by the breed. I don't understand a lot about how the laws of genetics work, it does sound to me like not breeding the sister is the right thing to do? What am I not understanding? (I'm not talking about the puppy buyer being reimbursed, clearly the contract was violated, that's another story). Based on the opinions you both give on this board, I always feel I can count on you all to be good teachers on these issues.


This breeder is clearly not reputable... but the owner of this puppy did not do their homework, they spent a ton of money, a ridiculous amount, the dogs don't have clearances and they clearly are upset about their contract. They did not do due diligence when selecting their puppy and their breeder. There are a lot of not reputable people out there and they were bitten in the behind by their own lack of homework. 

I can answer the questions the best I can.... 
First yes I would let the other puppy families know, I would encourage them to be tested. EVERYONE knows that my Bing is sick... everyone knows about his issues. Luckily it is not a genetic issue in goldens but I do let puppy people know so that they can keep an eye out for issues. I would ask them to have their puppies tested. 

I personally would wash every associated dog out of my breeding program. They would all be spayed or neutered and I would start again. You don't mess with SAS. We are breeding Connie despite Bings shunt and every puppy will be tested for a shunt (again not genetically linked in goldens) and if ANY puppy comes up with a shunt all associated dogs will be spayed or neutered and honestly I will probably euthanize any puppies with a shunt. However, after extensive research it doesn't appear to be an issue in goldens and there have been no shunts in any of the other puppies produced by the sire and there were no shunt puppies in kaelyns prior litter, but I am going to track the issue. 

My issue is simply with the sentence (I don't want to bash the breeder), if they had left that sentence out I wouldn't have been nearly as amused. Of course that is what they wanted to do... that's why they signed up for a forum specifically for golden retrievers and posted in TWO places with the breeders name etc etc. under the title "Breeder Warning" . I just think it is funny... I can almost hear someone saying well I dont mean to gossip but have you heard.... 

I clearly stated that it didn't seem like the breeder was a good one, they don't seem like they have their ducks in a row. I agree... BUT don't come to a forum and complain about a breeder and then say you don't want to bash them BUUUTTT ..... and then complain about a contract that YOU signed. The provisions of the contract are very clear... NO restitution... you have to use the NuVet. The breeder is sticking to their contract... the buyer wants them to do something that their contract clearly says they won't do. I agree that the littermate shouldn't be bred.... I agree this is not a responsible breeder... would I tell people... probably... but this is coming across more as a disgruntled puppy person... they didn't just come here and give the warning about the littermate... they started talking about how they didn't get money back even though this fell under the timeframe of the contract. 

Would I have gotten a puppy from this breeder... of course NOT .... do I think its a terrible contract? yep, do I think they were overcharged, Yep... do I think the breeder shouldn't breed the sister? yep... am I amused by the 'not bashing the breeder statement' ? yep.... am I surprised at all of this ? no not really.... 

I have real issues with people who go to these breeders... who buy a cute puppy ... who don't do their homework and then complain. 

They managed to find this forum to complain and bash... they could have found this forum to learn... and that doesn't even mention all the people that come here asking for help and knowledge and then do what they want anyway. Puppies are cute... it's what keeps them alive when they have peed of the floor for the twentieth time and chewed up your shoes... but honestly 
DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!!


----------



## Vito2010 (Jun 3, 2012)

I didn't sign up 2 months ago when I found out my dog had sas. I signed up when I found out the disease is being spread. If you were about to sleep with a person with aids and I informed you of their health would I be an a-hole or a hero. Did I do all my homework? No. Do I wish I did? No. Because I wouldn't have the best dog in the world. I can do this song and dance all day long. Give it a rest and ignore the info I provided.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> Just looked at a book I bought, last year, published in 2011... SAS is thought to be autosomal dominant with variable expressivity... This book then goes onto state, that in Goldens, it appears to be autosomal recessive(and gives a reference). I do not advocate breeding without clearances, but you do not want to throw the baby out with the bath water in some situations...


I think that this is so interesting... I do think that we have to remember that these diseases present differently in different breeds. 
In schnauzers, wolfhounds, (the two I remember offhand) liver shunts like my bings run in lines are have a genetic component... according to the researcher that did Bings surgery this is not the case in goldens. I find this very interesting. I agree with you if this is a recessive then I woiuldn't throw out the sister either. The problem is conflicting information makes it very difficult to know what to do and make a responsible decision.


----------



## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

Since there was 2 exact threads on this same subject, the threads have now been merged.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I should clarify that when my friends and I "cleaned house" after the clearance failures, it was because we did not want to be involved with that line. There were too many instances of SAS being produced.

OTOH, I know some very well known dogs that trace back to this, that to my knowledge have never produced SAS and the breed is better off for having them.

Very difficult disease to work with, from a breeder's perspective. I did check the GRCA website and there SAS is still listed as autosomal dominant with incomplete penetrance and variable expression.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Certainly the OP should have done more homework prior to buying this puppy, but hindsight is 20/20. I don't have a problem with the OP stating that the litter produced SAS if the "breeder" is repeating the breeding. I don't know why the money thing was mentioned initially if the contract doesn't require it... read contracts before you sign them and don't expect more than you agreed to. But it seems he/she is more upset the breeding is being repeated than anything. I would be very surprised to hear of a reputable breeder repeating a breeding that produced SAS. So if this prevents others from buying a puppy with a likelihood of the same diagnosis.....then the thread served its purpose.


----------



## GoldenMum (Mar 15, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Certainly the OP should have done more homework prior to buying this puppy, but hindsight is 20/20. I don't have a problem with the OP stating that the litter produced SAS if the "breeder" is repeating the breeding. I don't know why the money thing was mentioned initially if the contract doesn't require it... read contracts before you sign them and don't expect more than you agreed to. But it seems he/she is more upset the breeding is being repeated than anything. I would be very surprised to hear of a reputable breeder repeating a breeding that produced SAS. So if this prevents others from buying a puppy with a likelihood of the same diagnosis.....then the thread served its purpose.




Agreed! Sounds like they're more concerned with future breedings.......saving someone else the same heartache!


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The book I got my info on is The Genetic Connection, published in 2011. The autosomal incomplete dominant is thought to be how newfies inherit SAS. The article is from the 2010 ACVIM Forum, the article is "Familial Subaortic Stenosis Appears To Be An Autosomal Recessive Inherited Trait In Golden Retrievers", authored by J. Stern.


----------



## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> Very difficult disease to work with, from a breeder's perspective. I did check the GRCA website and there SAS is still listed as autosomal dominant with *incomplete penetrance and variable expression.*


What exactly does that mean, Linda? The whole autosomal dominant etc. etc.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> The book I got my info on is The Genetic Connection, published in 2011. The autosomal incomplete dominant is thought to be how newfies inherit SAS. The article is from the 2010 ACVIM Forum, the article is "Familial Subaortic Stenosis Appears To Be An Autosomal Recessive Inherited Trait In Golden Retrievers", authored by J. Stern.


Thanks Sally's I am going to try and pull that.... appreciate the cite


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

The study the GRCA quotes covered both Newfies and Goldens. 

"The Canine Health Foundation sponsored a study of SAS in Golden Retrievers and Newfoundlands. In that study, SAS in Goldens and Newfoundlands, appeared to be inherited as a dominant gene with incomplete penetrance and variable expression (Lehmkuhl and Meurs, online abstract)."

I have asked for an update from the Health Committee on this-the difference between a dominant and a recessive is huge.

Caryn, I'll try to find some examples when I get home, unless someone else comes up with somthing in the meantime. I don't know if anyone is putting on the genetic seminars that they used to have for dogs-they were very interesting.


----------



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

What does that mean in normal english?


----------



## Wagners Mom2 (Mar 20, 2012)

I may have missed it...but what is SAS?


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Wagners Mom said:


> I may have missed it...but what is SAS?


sub aortic stenosis.... 

it is a disease that we have been trying to get rid of in goldens for years... the reason we do heart clearances


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

mylissyk said:


> What does that mean in normal english?


I'm not a geneticist or scientist, but my reading of it is that they don't know whether the gene is dominant or recessive. Meaning if it is dominant and only one parent is a carrier you still have a 50% chance of producing offspring with SAS, but if it is recessive and one parent is a carrier there is a 0% chance of producing offspring with SAS. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong)


----------



## Vito2010 (Jun 3, 2012)

I contacted my vet, who is a top doc out of upenn and speaks on sas often, (same goes for my cardiologist) to make sure I was correct before posting here. She said "yes it is a proven dominant gene; the dog should not be bred. "


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

If it is a straight dominant, then it is generally fairly easy to get rid of. Unfortunately, a dominant with incomplete penetrance and variable expression is very different. The dog may have the gene but may not physically express, or may not physically express it in a way we can currently measure. Hence, dogs who have been cleared for breeding by a physical exam or echo have been found to have SAS upon autopsy. And, sometimes they are carriers of a dominant gene and are not affected by it. This can of course make it very hard to make breeding decisions.

Recessives can be much more difficult to work with, without adding in variable expression or incomplete penetrance.

Our best hope would be a DNA test for it, but I'm not even sure that is possible, especially if it would turn out to be polygenic in nature.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

If it is a case of simple dominant vs recessive, then let's call the gene for SAS "S", the trait to not carry it is "s". So any dog with the genes SS or Ss will show the trait of Subaortic stenosis. All dogs with ss will not only not carry the gene for it, they will not have the disease. In theory if you breed two Ss dogs to each other, one offspring will be Ss, two offspring will be SS, and one will be ss. With dominance with incomplete penetrance,there can be Ss and potentially SS dogs out there not showing murmurs or clinical signs, but have the genetic make up for SAS. If it is a recessive trait, the SAS will show up with much less frequency. I have spoken to Linda Limekuhl, and she did say in her Newfie studies, it presumed to be dominant with incomplete penetrance. I have readnumerous books, read numerous journals, etc, and I do not see 100% agreement when it comes to SAS in Goldens. There was an extremely popular sire here in the Northeast that produced it ... No one stopped breeding to him...


----------



## Wagners Mom2 (Mar 20, 2012)

So, in simplest form--if we are looking at perspective pups from a good reputable breeder--if the breeder has heart clearances, is that enough? Or is this something that has to be specifically tested for? 

I'm learning so much about clearances, but have SO far to go.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Wagners Mom said:


> So, in simplest form--if we are looking at perspective pups from a good reputable breeder--if the breeder has heart clearances, is that enough? Or is this something that has to be specifically tested for?
> 
> I'm learning so much about clearances, but have SO far to go.


there is no specific test for SAS the only thing we have to work with is to breed from parents who are unaffected... ie. have a heart clearance


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> If it is a case of simple dominant vs recessive, then let's call the gene for SAS "S", the trait to not carry it is "s". So any dog with the genes SS or Ss will show the trait of Subaortic stenosis. All dogs with ss will not only not carry the gene for it, they will not have the disease. In theory if you breed two Ss dogs to each other, one offspring will be Ss, two offspring will be SS, and one will be ss. With dominance with incomplete penetrance,there can be Ss and potentially SS dogs out there not showing murmurs or clinical signs, but  have the genetic make up for SAS. If it is a recessive trait, the SAS will show up with much less frequency. I have spoken to Linda Limekuhl, and she did say in her Newfie studies, it presumed to be dominant with incomplete penetrance. I have readnumerous books, read numerous journals, etc, and I do not see 100% agreement when it comes to SAS in Goldens. There was an extremely popular sire here in the Northeast that produced it ... No one stopped breeding to him...


the question then becomes as to whether there is EVER SAS that appears as a simple anomaly ... is it 100% genetic or can it be soemthing else....


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And there are breeds that have enhanced certain bad genetic traits breeding away from other traits...


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Ugh, this is so scary. So if there is incomplete penetrance then getting a heart clearance just shows that they aren't symptomatic of SAS, not that they don't have SAS?


----------



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Shalva said:


> I can answer the questions the best I can....


Thank you for taking time to go through it. I know you all must get so frustrated, but I appreciate the time people like you and SallysMom and Tahnee and several others take here on this forum. As a regular dog lover who doesn't show in conformation or ever plan to breed, there's no way I would ever have learned the things I have here from you all. 

Some of us are a little slower than others, but I hope you won't give up. You all have earned my respect here over the years because of the passion you have for the breed - I know you'd move heaven and earth to do the right thing by your dogs, no matter what. That's a big part of what makes your input so invaluable.


----------



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Vito2010 said:


> I didn't sign up 2 months ago when I found out my dog had sas. I signed up when I found out the disease is being spread....... Did I do all my homework? No. Do I wish I did? No. Because I wouldn't have the best dog in the world............


 

Vito, I do believe you when you say that your intention here was to inform about the continued breeding. We all understand that you love your pup and I hope that he has a long, happy life with you. I also hope that if you ever choose to buy from a breeder again (no matter what breed it happens to be) that you will get referrals from the local breed club and give your money to someone who is reputable, doing all the recommended health clearances on the correct timeline and following the club's code of ethics as a member in good standing. It will improve your odds of having a healthy, happy dog and you will have a better experience supporting someone who is working to improve the breed and not harm it.


----------



## GoldenMum (Mar 15, 2010)

nolefan said:


> Thank you for taking time to go through it. I know you all must get so frustrated, but I appreciate the time people like you and SallysMom and Tahnee and several others take here on this forum. As a regular dog lover who doesn't show in conformation or ever plan to breed, there's no way I would ever have learned the things I have here from you all.
> 
> Some of us are a little slower than others, but I hope you won't give up. You all have earned my respect here over the years because of the passion you have for the breed - I know you'd move heaven and earth to do the right thing by your dogs, no matter what. That's a big part of what makes your input so invaluable.



I second this! You guys really help all of us plain ole pet lovers out! Invaluable is the perfect word!!!


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Shalva said:


> the question then becomes as to whether there is EVER SAS that appears as a simple anomaly ... is it 100% genetic or can it be soemthing else....


And I have often wondered about that when I see a pedigree of a dog with SAS who does not have one of the "usual suspects" in its background. Can it sometimes be a simple mutation? And there are those dogs who have been diagnosed with SAS but who upon autopsy have been found NOT to have it <sigh>.

It is all very frustrating.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Sally's Mom said:


> And there are breeds that have enhanced certain bad genetic traits breeding away from other traits...


I always think of Basenji's and Fanconi, as an example of this 

Ugh-as they say, breeding is not for the faint of heart.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Tahnee GR said:


> And I have often wondered about that when I see a pedigree of a dog with SAS who does not have one of the "usual suspects" in its background. Can it sometimes be a simple mutation? And there are those dogs who have been diagnosed with SAS but who upon autopsy have been found NOT to have it <sigh>.
> 
> It is all very frustrating.


well I would think it would have to have started with a simple mutation if we go back ... I know of a dog that was diagnosed as a pup with SAS but then outgrew that so was it SAS?? or was it something else.... 

its all very maddening the reality is that none of this is black and white...


----------



## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'm not a geneticist or scientist, but my reading of it is that they don't know whether the gene is dominant or recessive. Meaning if it is dominant and only one parent is a carrier you still have a 50% chance of producing offspring with SAS, but if it is recessive and one parent is a carrier there is a 0% chance of producing offspring with SAS. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong)


 
The problem is that most issues are not a straight dominant gene so this would not be correct in those cases. Most issues that are dominant in nature are dominant with incomplete penetrance. This means that it will not be expressed and can skip generations. It makes it much more difficult to track. There are also said to be "carriers" of SAS in which the dogs are clear but can pass the gene for the disease on. This makes it even more difficult to track.

It is imperative that all breeding stock have heart clearances done by CARDIOLOGISTS. They are trained to hear the subtle differences in the flow of the blood that can be linked to SAS. If a cardiologist has a question, they will do an echocardiogram and check the flow levels.

You can still get a case of SAS from parents who are both clear. However, in these cases, the SAS is usually mild and the dog will be able to have a normal lifespan with no limitations on activity levels, etc. In those cases, I don't see why a breeder should refund when the dog will be able to function as a pet/companion.

As far as what to do, there is still some disagreement between the researchers about the exact MOI of SAS. Some say it is recessive and some say dominant. I have not ever heard it was a simple dominant or recessive. That would be much too simple!!  They have been trying to come up with a blood test for SAS but until that happens, we are left with having hearts cleared by a cardiologist. 

In the OP's case, this is all speculation because clearances were not done. So, we do not know if the parents are affected. Obviously, no dog-no matter how small the murmur should be bred when they have been diagnosed with SAS. However, that would not extend to every relative of that dog.

Breeding is not black and white and the more you know, the more it becomes shades of gray. A breeder must weigh ALL the information available about a dog from clearances, to temperament, to birdiness, to longevity, to structural problems and strengths and then decide the best route to take. There is no such thing as a perfect dog. All dogs will have some issues of one kind or another. 

If we eliminated every dog from the gene pool who had a relative that did not pass a clearance, golden retrievers would have been extinct a long time ago. This is where the term "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" came from with breeders. Breeders must weigh the severity of the issue, look at the genetic MOI and information available at the time-that information is also subject to change as more studies are done and more genetic markers are found- and make decisions based on that information. This is also why it is imperative that you get your puppy from a breeder who is showing in some way shape or form. These are the breeders that are in it for the long haul and keeping on top of genetic issues. Are there bad ones out there amongst those?? Yes-there are. This is absolutely an issue of buyer beware and do your homework. Look to see if information is complete on the OFA website with clearances, look to see if older dogs with the same kennel name have DOD information filled in on K9data. Also, please don't make assumptions. I have been asked when our Bailey passed away by a few people who have apparently looked at k9data and seen she is 15.5 and decided she must have passed. Thankfully, she is still with us so again, don't assume-ask questions. These things will tell you a lot about the breeder and how seriously they take health issues with their dogs.


----------

