# The "original" goldens



## GoldenMom2015 (Dec 30, 2015)

This is fascinating! I love reading about the lineage of the Golden breed. Especially when the articles are in depth like this. It really makes you appreciate the work that went into breeding the first lines and also shows how the breed standard has changed!


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

Here is the link again... the photos are the most interesting part:
Retrievers and Dogs of the Tweedmouth Strain from the Early Twentieth Century | Natural History[/url]




*Golden Retrievers and Dogs of the Tweedmouth Strain from the Early Twentieth Century*
June 5, 2009 by retrieverman



> Sometimes pictures really do speak louder than words. Very few breeds have the pictoral history of their development as golden retrievers do. I’ve sifted through the history of this breed rather closely and carefully studied the photographs and paintings. I have come the following conclusions:
> 
> 
> 1. The vast majority of the early dogs, including those at Guisachan were not light colored. It is often said that they were, usually using Elma Stonex’s history as a source. However, she was simply wrong about this. It is possible that she was wanting to please the golden retriever club mandarins, who were beginning to breed the lighter colors and had changed the standard to allow for these lighter colors just a few decades earlier (in 1936). Most of the golden retriever intelligentsia of that time were deeply committed to the Russian circus dog story of golden origins, and it is likely that she was trying to make the story fit better with the politics of golden retriever society at the time.
> ...


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

I love the look of those dogs and am happy that some breeders had the foresight and interest to keep the working golden lines alive and well.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I love the history, but of course my gag reflex set in by the end of the article where I read according to Retrieverman, my dogs both probably swim with the grace of a Clydesdale.... because they are built more like retrievers than setters and border collies.... And because.... I do not trim the coat/furnishings off like those people in the 30's apparently did. As Retrieverman observed in the below pic... 

Seriously speaking though, I don't really believe there is a huge difference in length of leg and bone between my guys and the one pictures. If anything, I swear both my dogs have _more _leg than this dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Goofy question, but why was sharing the Retrieverman blog link breaking a rule? 

Don't we all share links all the time?


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

Yes, after a nice factual history the author had to get a snipe in ( swimming like Clydesdales...) at the very end. What I think is interesting is that Goldens are kind of a "mixed breed" in a way - spaniel, Newfoundland, bloodhound?, some sort of circus performing Russian sheep dogs?! Maybe we shouldn't be griping about Goldendoodles so much!


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## GoldinPNW (Jun 23, 2015)

Haha.... My first Golden Riley was a beautiful swimmer the second who's dad is a beautiful swimmer is this guy

swims with the grace of a Clydesdale.... 

Sinks like a rock and a Clydesdale may have more grace. He does have a heavy show coat his graceful brother had the shorter wavy coat. Personally I think swimming is just not his thing. Also deadly afraid of anything that sounds like a gun...100% NOT a field dog poor guy. Show dog through and through.


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

Megora said:


> Goofy question, but why was sharing the Retrieverman blog link breaking a rule?
> 
> Don't we all share links all the time?


I'm told it's not ok to post a link to a site that has a donation button on it - which I didn't notice.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

fourlakes said:


> Yes, after a nice factual history the author had to get a snipe in ( swimming like Clydesdales...) at the very end. What I think is interesting is that Goldens are kind of a "mixed breed" in a way - spaniel, Newfoundland, bloodhound?, some sort of circus performing Russian sheep dogs?! Maybe we shouldn't be griping about Goldendoodles so much!


Well, give the goldendoodles a 100 years and let them show us that they are focusing on developing a breed that is consistent and breeds true generations after generations of just breeding goldendoodles, and it'd be easier to see them as an actual breed and not just a mixed breed?  

As far as I can tell reading the different history thingies on goldens and browsing on K9Data - it took Golden Retrievers until the 50's or 60's before we began to see a consistent and regular product in the conformation ring. 

Up until the 20's (going off memory) you still had golden retriever breeders going back and breeding to flat coated retrievers and then you see the pictures of the breed champions from the 20's through the 60's - they varied in style/look so much... It took a really long time.

I never knew that Retrieverman had a donate button....



*** My little AKC CH Pointed guy went swimming for the first time as a 10-12 week old puppy. It was a 60 degree day and mid-winter thaw (meaning there was ice in some areas, though the dogs had plenty of free water to swim in). He has a nice show coat today - but swims like a seal. Both my dogs do.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Megora said:


> Goofy question, but why was sharing the Retrieverman blog link breaking a rule?
> 
> Don't we all share links all the time?


The site the article is on has a Donation Button to keep the blog up and running. The site is not a Non Profit, only Nonprofits are allowed to be posted when their is a button or link to make donations per GRF Rule #14. 

I found the article to be extremely interesting, so I copied and pasted it and inserted all the pictures so everyone could see it instead of just removing the link.


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## Elsa Cholla's Mom (Feb 8, 2016)

I read some of this stuff before, because I was interested in my dog's history. My novice opinion is that I like the way hunting dogs looked back then, and the lean ones of today, and I was not really impressed with modern conformation of just about all breeds. 
In my dog's case, Elsa's dam is light and lean. An elegant looking GR but the sire is built to conformation standards, but over weight at 80lbs. Didn't get to meet him, but he is still a pretty dog. I am hoping Elsa takes after her mom.
In that final picture, of the 'show' dog, his ears look too short, and his face looks too short. Just something off about the presentation of that particular dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Elsa Cholla's Mom said:


> In that final picture, of the 'show' dog, his ears look too short, and his face looks too short. Just something off about the presentation of that particular dog.


Does anyone know who this dog is? 

I'm thinking that there is a fairer picture to be shown of this same exact dog, with him standing on level ground and with his head/face forward.


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

Just don't see much of a different look in Goldens vs what has happened to other breeds IMO.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

If I remember correctly the whole "Russian circus dog" thing was debunked by the Kennel Club. 

The dogs of the past were very different than those found in the conformation ring today. That is true of nearly the entire sporting group not just Golden Retrievers.


Here are a couple more oldies

Noranby Tweedledum











CH Speedwell Pluto

Pluto is one of the main foundation dogs for the breed in North America. 













Then there are some Dual Champions from the past. These were dogs that were both Champions in the Conformation ring and Champions in the Field.



DC Craigmar's Dustrack












DC Tonkahof Esther Belle


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## alphadude (Jan 15, 2010)

Axl, the field retriever swims like a seal. Puffy the conformation retriever does indeed swim like a Clydesdale, and a clumsy one at that.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

GoldenMom2015 said:


> This is fascinating! I love reading about the lineage of the Golden breed. Especially when the articles are in depth like this. It really makes you appreciate the work that went into breeding the first lines and also shows how the breed standard has changed!
> 
> The standard didn't change all that much, the interpretation did.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

fourlakes said:


> Yes, after a nice factual history the author had to get a snipe in ( swimming like Clydesdales...) at the very end. What I think is interesting is that Goldens are kind of a "mixed breed" in a way - spaniel, Newfoundland,* bloodhound*?, some sort of circus performing Russian sheep dogs?! Maybe we shouldn't be griping about Goldendoodles so much!


I found this part interesting/ironic, because I have been joking lately that Noah is really a bloodhound in a golden retriever body.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Love the old pictures! Could do without the digs against conformation dogs, which retrieverman loves to dish out, as well as the constant referral to colors (i.e. "a mahogany" -- who calls their goldens by different colors???).
GRF made me remove the link in my signature to Fisher's website, because at the bottom of one page it has a link to my business website. God forbid the GRF users discover that some websites want to sell you stuff LOL


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

LOVE those old photos! Thanks for posting. 



rabernet said:


> I found this part interesting/ironic, because I have been joking lately that Noah is really a bloodhound in a golden retriever body.


I used to say this about my last girl, too. She lived with her nose to the ground, and could pick up the scent of old tennis ball like no one else. We'd be walking along a trail and suddenly she'd bolt deep into the forest... and finally come back ... with a tennis ball.


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

I would be ok with tracking tennis balls. My girls tend to come back with parts of dead critters.:yuck:


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

A few more "Oldies".


*FC Musicmaker Of Yeo*

FC Musicmaker Of Yeo in the foreground with some of her Progeny. From left to right National FC Mazurka Of Wynford, Holway Leo and Melodymaker Of Wynford.











DC Stilrovin Nitro Express













And a few more recent ones.


DC Tigathoes Funky Farquar












and his brother FC AFC Tigathoes Kiowa II OS FDHF


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

fourlakes said:


> I would be ok with tracking tennis balls. My girls tend to come back with parts of dead critters.:yuck:


Bringing dead stuff back is always more fun than tennis balls. Particularly if you rolled on it real good first before you bring that sucker home.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Love that picture of Quar. Wish we could see more like him.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I'm actually pretty tired of the baloney about modern show dogs and how bad they are compared to the early dogs, and how they swim like Clydesdales and stuff. I'll put my Grand Champion show dog up against any of them.




























I'm extremely tired of it. They just sound like a bunch of Bernie Bros, to me.


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## Jud (Aug 10, 2015)

Loved this article. I am stopping by the manor that I can't believe is not a 'Golden Retriever Museum' ?? !!! I'll be passing by on my trip to Scotland in May


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> I found the article to be extremely interesting, so I copied and pasted it and inserted all the pictures so everyone could see it instead of just removing the link.


Frankly, I think this is really inappropriate. First of all, when somebody posts a link, the fact that there happens to be a donation button does not violate rule #14, which specifically states that what's banned is "for members to ask for personal donations for themselves, or for other members’ behalf." It does not say *any* site with a donation button can never be linked, which would frankly create a ridiculous situation.

Secondly, when somebody creates content, reposting it without permission is _illegal_. You are violating that person's copyright and stealing their content. If somebody did it with my writing and photos, I'd send them a DMCA takedown notice. The photos in this situation are probably public domain, but retrieverman's text certainly is his property.

I was here when rule #14 was created. It was to stop people from donation begging for themselves, not to randomly ban any site that offers the user a chance to donate. Also, are we checking the 501c3 status of every site we ban this way or just proceeding on assumptions about what's for profit and what's not?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Love the old pictures! Could do without the digs against conformation dogs, which retrieverman loves to dish out, as well as the constant referral to colors (i.e. "a mahogany" -- who calls their goldens by different colors???).
> GRF made me remove the link in my signature to Fisher's website, because at the bottom of one page it has a link to my business website. God forbid the GRF users discover that some websites want to sell you stuff LOL


Yeah - I didn't protest when they did that to you, and now I wish I had, because that doesn't violate the letter of Rule #4 or #14, nor, I'd argue, does it violate the intent of either of those rules either. I just got caught up in that ridiculousness today, and I'm a lot more sympathetic now.


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Frankly, I think this is really inappropriate. First of all, when somebody posts a link, the fact that there happens to be a donation button does not violate rule #14, which specifically states that what's banned is "for members to ask for personal donations for themselves, or for other members’ behalf." It does not say *any* site with a donation button can never be linked, which would frankly create a ridiculous situation.
> 
> Secondly, when somebody creates content, reposting it without permission is _illegal_. You are violating that person's copyright and stealing their content. If somebody did it with my writing and photos, I'd send them a DMCA takedown notice. The photos in this situation are probably public domain, but retrieverman's text certainly is his property.
> 
> I was here when rule #14 was created. It was to stop people from donation begging for themselves, not to randomly ban any site that offers the user a chance to donate. Also, are we checking the 501c3 status of every site we ban this way or just proceeding on assumptions about what's for profit and what's not?


 This was brought to the attention of the "team" on 2/23. Copy and paste an entire article is plagiarizing. No quotes or credit to the source is a direct violation of the "team's" Rule #5.
No response or addressing the rule violation.


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