# Over Exercised?



## Fozzybear (Feb 27, 2008)

I may be overly concerned but I have to ask. Yesterday was a very warm day and for the second day in a row we got out the little blue dog pool for the boys to cool off in. With the kids all home for Father’s Day everybody was outside doing one thing or another so the dogs were outside from 9 am to 7 pm. They played in the pool, went swimming in the pond, chased balls a Frisbees, etc… Later in the evening I noticed Ace (not quite two years old) was very slow to get up and by 10pm almost had to be helped down the stairs on the deck to go the bathroom. His back legs just didn’t seem to want to work. Jake was also limping a little on his front leg and was slow to get up but he really played hard for him so I attributed that to being slightly older. (Jake is almost 7). This morning they both seem to be fine although still a little slow. No problems going down stairs though.

[FONT=&quot]Is this something that I should just watch in the future or should I be really concerned. When we first got Ace form the Humane Society last year we took him to our vet for a check up and I had his hips x-rayed. The vet said everything looked fine at the time and no evidence that there would be any future problems. Has anybody else’s golden ever just run himself into the ground like this or is this a problem beginning to show itself?[/FONT]


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## Doodle (Apr 6, 2009)

I've had my dogs run themselves out like this. Being out all day in the warmth and running around takes a lot out of them, and they have so much fun that sometimes don't know when to stop. Given that they are acting normally today, maybe just a little tired, I would consider that to be expected after yesterday's activities. This kind of event would prompt me to limit their activities to some degree when I think they've had enough so that they don't get overly exhausted.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I'd be concerned that he may have torn his ACL.


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## Kiki_Michigan (Jul 14, 2008)

Trooper is only 15 months and he gets tired out easily also. If he is very active and especially if we take him to the dog park by evening he is very slow to get up. He hasn't had a problem going up/down steps but I often wonder if he should be acting this way. We had his hips X-rayed also and they are fine. So, maybe they do just get tired muscles from playing hard all day.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Keep your eye on them by all means. I want to think they over did like we all can. Sounds like they had a busy day, but if they do not return to normal within 24 hours, I would think there could be a soft tissue (or heaven forbid) and torn CCL injury. 

Dogs do get sore from too much activity they are not used to like we can. Fingers crossed :crossfing that is all it is.


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## Fozzybear (Feb 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I'd be concerned that he may have torn his ACL.



Anything in particular to watch out for? He didn't seem to favor one leg over the other last night that I noticed. The best way to describe it was as if his rear legs (both) feel asleep. Very slow to respond.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Fozzybear said:


> Anything in particular to watch out for? He didn't seem to favor one leg over the other last night that I noticed. The best way to describe it was as if his rear legs (both) feel asleep. Very slow to respond.


 
It would be localized lameness to one leg, so it may just have been muscle soreness.


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## Fozzybear (Feb 27, 2008)

Well the kids played with the dogs yet again last night. Lots of swimming running etc... even after I asked them to let them rest. Anyhow here is a small video of Ace trying to get up last night after sleeping for about 30 minutes. Does this still look like over exercise or something else? Sorry about the video quality.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

That looks like back pain to me, maybe even from a pinched nerve since both his hind legs aren't working well when he tries to get up. You need to enforce a NO PLAYING AT ALL period the end for a few days. I would be at my vet if this doesn't resolve in one more day. Just my opinion...


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## Meggie'sMom (Dec 24, 2007)

Rest up Ace, it's going to be a long summer! Hope he's feeling better soon, Fozzy.


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## ManyQs (Feb 20, 2009)

After a day of playing in the lake and running around the yard, Sommer can be slow getting up once she lays down. After a short nap she will even limp for a short while but usually the next day she is fine. She seems to play harder and longer.

Keep us posted after a couple days of rest.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I just watched the video. I think that there is something more going on than just being muscle sore. The lack of coordination in the rear legs would suggest a back or pelvic injury, perhaps, or possibly patellas. Dave, can/will he wag his tail?


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## Fozzybear (Feb 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I just watched the video. I think that there is something more going on than just being muscle sore. The lack of coordination in the rear legs would suggest a back or pelvic injury, perhaps, or possibly patellas. Dave, can/will he wag his tail?


Yes he does wag his tail. I have also noticed that rather than sitting normally with both legs flat on the floor he will now sit more on the outside of his legs with both rear feet underneath him. Like he is sitting on the outside of his hip if that makes sense. I am calling this morning to try and get him in to the vet and I am bringing the video, such that it is. He did it again last night and is fine this morning too by the way. Just seems to be when he gets tired. He was also restricted from doing anything to athletic yesterday.


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## Fozzybear (Feb 27, 2008)

Well Ace is at the Vet. He will be sedated early this afternoon and they will be doing x rays and manipulating his hips and elbows. Anybody have any suggestions on specific questions to ask when i pick him up if it turns out to be Hip Dysplasia or something like that? I always forget the telling questions when i get in there unless i have them written down. I took the cameera in with me and the vet really liked having the video evidence of what I was talking about.


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## Meggie'sMom (Dec 24, 2007)

No suggestions, but lots of good thoughts for Ace!


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## Fozzybear (Feb 27, 2008)

Well we are back from the Vet. Three x-rays were taken and the joints were manipulated while under sedation. The hips and joints do not move, and without the video the Vet said he would never had suspected Dysplasia. He still thinks it may be and wants Ace on Rimadyl for 10 days and if he is much better after that time he suggests a consult with an orthopedic specialist but it is not something we would have to do right away. I am going to start looking for one and find out how much a consult will be and go from there.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Fozzybear said:


> Well we are back from the Vet. Three x-rays were taken and the joints were manipulated while under sedation. The hips and joints do not move, and without the video the Vet said he would never had suspected Dysplasia. He still thinks it may be and wants Ace on Rimadyl for 10 days and if he is much better after that time he suggests a consult with an orthopedic specialist but it is not something we would have to do right away. I am going to start looking for one and find out how much a consult will be and go from there.


Did he take the same view as would be sent to OFA? You might consider sending the rads to OFA. They'd be eval'd by 3 orto vets - the cost would be less than fto see a specialist. If the rating comes back as HD, you could then consider an ortho consult.


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## Fozzybear (Feb 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Did he take the same view as would be sent to OFA? You might consider sending the rads to OFA. They'd be eval'd by 3 orto vets - the cost would be less than fto see a specialist. If the rating comes back as HD, you could then consider an ortho consult.


I am not certain what the OFA requirements are but the view appeared to be from directly above with the legs directly to the rear. Does the OFA have a website with the requirements for submittal on them?

Thanks for the idea!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Fozzybear said:


> I am not certain what the OFA requirements are but the view appeared to be from directly above with the legs directly to the rear. Does the OFA have a website with the requirements for submittal on them?
> 
> Thanks for the idea!


 
www.offa.org

http://www.offa.org/hipinfo.html

Your vet very likely has submitted rads before.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

http://www.offa.org/hiptreat.html just for an FYI on treatment options.

And the positioning would look like this:


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## Fozzybear (Feb 27, 2008)

He would only qualify for the preliminary since he is under 24 months old but that would still give us a real good idea of what to do next. Thanks Again!


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## Fozzybear (Feb 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> http://www.offa.org/hiptreat.html just for an FYI on treatment options.
> 
> And the positioning would look like this:


Yup, looked just like that! Ball & socket looks shockingly like what I saw also but that doesn't mean much since I couldn't even tell whether the x-ray was taken from the top or bottom.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Did the vet say anything about the ACL's? In the video, I notice he's trying to get up from a soft surface. If one leg is compromised, that can be very difficult. Does he have an easier time getting up from a hard surface?

I've seen this same type of struggle with Daisy, before ACL surgery.


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## Fozzybear (Feb 27, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> Did the vet say anything about the ACL's? In the video, I notice he's trying to get up from a soft surface. If one leg is compromised, that can be very difficult. Does he have an easier time getting up from a hard surface?
> 
> I've seen this same type of struggle with Daisy, before ACL surgery.


He said he checked the elbows, ACL's and also x-ray'd the majority of the spine and didn't see any problems with any of them. I think he would of told me to go home if I didn't show him the video.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Just found and read this thread now... hey Foz, how's Ace doing today? I viewed that video and Ace really seemed to be having a problem getting his hind legs to support him though I couldn't tell if it was muscle weakness (a partial paralysis) or pain. Have you thought about something like Lyme disease? or was this a very sudden onset?
I really like Ace and with that strong retriever drive he's got I hope this is something that can be fixed. I hope its just a muscle or back strain in which case he should be a lot better by now. So, how's he doing?


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## Meggie'sMom (Dec 24, 2007)

Was wondering the same thing - how's Ace?


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## alanckaye (Feb 7, 2009)

I can't get over how much Brady looks like Karma. Nearly the same age too.


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## Fozzybear (Feb 27, 2008)

A little update. Ace is back to his old self. No notice of any trouble at all getting up or anything. I think the telling sign will be around the end of the week when the Rymadil (sp?) prescription is done. We have been limiting his activities a little and all the kids were gone for the weekend so we shall see. I will let you all know toward the end of the week. I still think we will go with the OFA pre hip exam though.


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## Meggie'sMom (Dec 24, 2007)

I don't blame you. Better safe than sorry when it comes to the "kids".  Hugs to Ace.


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## Jemima (Apr 4, 2009)

Hi there, 

I hope Ace is still doing well, this does to me look like it could be ACL problems as a few have already mentioned. Heidi has had surgery on both of hers, and this is how she looked getting up and down. Hopefully you have had some better news by now, keep us all posted.


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## Fozzybear (Feb 27, 2008)

Udate#2 Things going downhill. Ace is back to the point where it is difficult for him to get up at times. He also almost has to be forced to eat at times. What I mean by forced is that you have to stay in the room with him and keep pointing at the food otherwise he will just walk away. I guess dis -interested would be a good description.

He also gave us quite the scare this morning. The alarm went off at 6 and my wife hit the snooze. This usually wakes up the dogs and Ace will get up and start walking around the room for a minute before laying back down. I have no idea exactly what happened since it was dark, but I heard him get up and then I heard something thud on the wall. Then on the dresser, then I heard him run/shuffle across the room where he crashed into his crate. He must of went into it because the noise was extremely loud and sounded like he was smashing into all sides of it. This all happened in a second or two before I could get to the light switch. I held him down and was comforting him (he was freaked out but didn't look seizurish). After a few minutes I let him up and he seemed ok but about every 5 steps it seemed as though he lost connection with his back legs. They seemed to go one way when he wanted to go another. I assume after seeing this that may of been what was going on in the dark.. He got scared because his back end wasn't doing what he wanted or expected. After 20 minutes he seemed fine.


Anybody got any additional ideas other that HD. To me it just doesn't seem to fit but then again I have never had a dog with HD. I never did send in the xrays to OFA. I know I should have but I didn't. I have an appointment with vet for Wednesday at 4 or they said if he got worse or had another episode I could bring him in first thing Monday.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Gosh Im sorry to hear this update...
Will Ace eat if his dish is raised...so he doenst have to lower his head to eat...?


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## Fozzybear (Feb 27, 2008)

LibertyME said:


> Gosh Im sorry to hear this update...
> Will Ace eat if his dish is raised...so he doenst have to lower his head to eat...?


His dish is somewhat raised. It is approx. 12" off the ground.


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## Thor0918 (Feb 28, 2008)

That's too scary. I would use that offer for Monday.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I feel so bad for Ace as its obvious now this is something more than mere muscle strain. One could say maybe he cut off blood flow to one leg by having laid the wrong way possibly but this disinterest in food is yet another cause for concern as that means he just isn't feeling right. I definitely suggest taking him to the vet's soon. For the time being I might suggest having a night-light left on all night as it might help him get his bearings and ease his fears of where he is if his legs should again fail him in the middle of the night. I've spent the last 10-minutes searching the web looking for possibilities but so far haven't found anything that seems to fit. If there is an absence of pain I too doubt its HD so let me ask you, does he seem to be in pain when he tries to stand? Are you able to tell if its pain, or a muscle weakness (partial paralysis), or a dizzy spell that is causing his difficulty standing? Does his legs respond to touch, like he feels your hand? Does touching his legs seem to elicit any sort of pain response, like he stops breathing for a moment, something like that? Also do these episodes only happen at night? or after he's been asleep for awhile? How many episodes has he had recently (last two months)? I will try doing so more searching later today to see what I can find on the Internet that might seem to fit Ace's symptoms.


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## Fozzybear (Feb 27, 2008)

monomer said:


> I feel so bad for Ace as its obvious now this is something more than mere muscle strain. One could say maybe he cut off blood flow to one leg by having laid the wrong way possibly but this disinterest in food is yet another cause for concern as that means he just isn't feeling right. I definitely suggest taking him to the vet's soon. For the time being I might suggest having a night-light left on all night as it might help him get his bearings and ease his fears of where he is if his legs should again fail him in the middle of the night. I've spent the last 10-minutes searching the web looking for possibilities but so far haven't found anything that seems to fit. If there is an absence of pain I too doubt its HD so let me ask you, does he seem to be in pain when he tries to stand? Are you able to tell if its pain, or a muscle weakness (partial paralysis), or a dizzy spell that is causing his difficulty standing? Does his legs respond to touch, like he feels your hand? Does touching his legs seem to elicit any sort of pain response, like he stops breathing for a moment, something like that? Also do these episodes only happen at night? or after he's been asleep for awhile? How many episodes has he had recently (last two months)? I will try doing so more searching later today to see what I can find on the Internet that might seem to fit Ace's symptoms.


Really doesn't seem to have any noticeable pain as you describe it. No wincing or catching his breath etc... Definitely seems worse the longer he lays down. He does seem to be able to feel my hand anywhere I put it. The episode he had last night was the first where he didn't seem to have control. The more he exercises the worse it is which I guess would be obvious, but what is strange is that swimming for him is worse than running. He can run around all day and be noticeably slower getting up at night, but when he swims he really has a hard time getting up that night. Maybe its because he puts so much more effort into it. I can manipulate all legs,hips etc.. and have never got any sort of pain or discomfort response from him so it is definitely a puzzle. 

He will lay down at times in almost a contorted position. If he is on his stomach his rear will usually have the left hip down which would lead you to believe that his head would follow this and he would be in the typical "C" shape when laying down. But he doesn't always do this. Many times he will lay down with his left hip down and his head and neck will be twisted to be also on the left. Hard to described but maybe you get it. I wil try to get a picture next time he does it but he really is a camera hound and as soon as he sees a camera he sits up. 

Thanks for the concern and ideas.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

In your shoes, I'd skip your regular vet and head straight to a veterinary orthopedist. An orthopedist can get a good idea simply from manipulating his legs whether the issue could be spinal (busted disc, for instance), knees, etc. When I adopted Finn, he was periodically lame with yelping. After hip x-rays and a variety of other tests, my vet referred us to an orthopedist. We had a firm diagnosis in a couple of days, but the diagnostics did include an MRI (very pricey). Finn is right as rain after a dorsal laminectomy for a severely broken disc, which caused great pain. Fingers crossed that you find an answer for Ace and that it's easily fixable.


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

Dogs are like humans,if they overdo it,they get sore!.Give them a day off and they'll be fine!.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Fozzybear said:


> Really doesn't seem to have any noticeable pain as you describe it. No wincing or catching his breath etc... Definitely seems worse the longer he lays down. He does seem to be able to feel my hand anywhere I put it. The episode he had last night was the first where he didn't seem to have control. The more he exercises the worse it is which I guess would be obvious, but what is strange is that swimming for him is worse than running. He can run around all day and be noticeably slower getting up at night, but when he swims he really has a hard time getting up that night. Maybe its because he puts so much more effort into it. I can manipulate all legs,hips etc.. and have never got any sort of pain or discomfort response from him so it is definitely a puzzle.
> 
> He will lay down at times in almost a contorted position. If he is on his stomach his rear will usually have the left hip down which would lead you to believe that his head would follow this and he would be in the typical "C" shape when laying down. But he doesn't always do this. Many times he will lay down with his left hip down and his head and neck will be twisted to be also on the left. Hard to described but maybe you get it. I wil try to get a picture next time he does it but he really is a camera hound and as soon as he sees a camera he sits up.
> 
> Thanks for the concern and ideas.


No pain means it will be harder to pin down. So it might be a muscle weakness but due to what? That's what I did my earlier search on but the hits I got had mainly to do with very old dogs or dogs wasting away, which is not the case with Ace at all. The twisted position you describe is not all that uncommon as I occassionally will find one of our dogs in that position... sometimes it just depends on where the 'action' in the room is. I would think the lack of pain suggests spinal injury and hip joint deformation are probably not indicated. Does this only occur if he's been exercised recently? ever happened on a day he didn't get to go out (too rainy or such)? Running causes repetative impacts on bone and joints whereas swimming only exercises the muscles, however it does depend upon where and how Ace retrieves... in shallows he could be bouncing off his hind legs trying to get out to the ball faster... still it would appear it'd be easier on his bones than land retrieving however those rear legs muscle would get more of a workout leaping through water than just running around on land. Does Ace get worked out every single day where you could say he's pretty much always in condition for the day's event? or is it more hit and miss?

Still I keep coming around to thinking about his disinterest in food. If you put really good stuff in his bowl will he still blow-off eating? Disinterest in food is a real concern. If it happens two days in a row our dogs are at the vet's.

Well, I'm taking off now but I will be back later this evening to read any further developments on Ace and will try another (long) search to see if I can find any useful information for you. I know how I'd feel if it were Sid or Soph.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Are we sure it's not some sort of spinal issue? Carmella had what her vet suspected was an issue with her spine because as she got older, she would occasionally lose control of her back legs - when she was walking her back legs would drag on the pavement, and often she would completely lose control and her rear end would collapse to the ground. She would also have trouble getting her rear end off the floor after she had been lying down for a long while, especially on a slippery surface like tile. The vet x-rayed her spine at one point and found that she had a bony growth pushing up against her spinal cord, which he decided was making it difficult for her rear end to always receive the right signals.

It was sad, but she really didn't seem bothered by it, and after we permanently put her on Rimadyl it did seem to lessen in severity. She would still fall occasionally and stopped going up stairs, but it never got any worse than that. Of course, she was about 12 at the time this happened, so it was also probably arthritis as well.

I didn't read every post properly, but have you discussed spinal issues with your vet at all? I would consider that. I really hope Ace gets better. He is way too young to deal with this.


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## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

Ah, the poor baby! I'm sorry. You know, it sounds a little like maybe ataxia. Which in my experience was caused by liver enzymes. A little confused and just stands there sometimes a little dazed. Also, kind of wobbly. Which would explain maybe the food issue as well.

It could all be caused by pain, but I'd have my vet do a full blood panel including liver enzymes and also bring in a first morning urine sample. Sounds to me like something other than "just" pain. Could be 2 completely different issues.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I feel like this is always my answer, but I have to say that I would have his thyroid checked. My Jasper was just two years old when he started having trouble getting up. He looked a lot like your Ace when he would get up, and sometimes I would have to lift him into a standing position. The original diagnosis for him from the vet was that he possibly got T-boned by a pack of dogs at our rescue reunion (that was the first time I saw him have a hard time getting up). Then we had x-rays done and the vet said mild hip displaysia, but not enough to be causing the trouble he was having.

He was the same way as Ace. He seemed to play and keep up with the other dogs with no problem. But once he laid down for a period of time, he had difficulty getting up.

Finally the referred me to an orthopedic vet. But first I insisted on a full thyroid panel. Turned out he had hypothyroidism and apparently had very low counts. 

All of his symptoms made sense once I realized what was going on. Hypothyroidism can cause muscle weakness, lethargy and depression among the other symptoms. Jasper wasn't all that interested in his food, though he didn't ever go off his food completely.

He has been on meds for almost two years now and has his "prance" back. It's amazing to realize how much better he feels!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Here is an article that lists some of the symptoms:

http://autoimmunedisease.suite101.com/article.cfm/canine_hypothyroidism


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I couldn't find anything that really seems to fit all the symptoms including the age. Interesting read about hypothyroidism, seems they covered every possibility with all those symptoms they listed. I know its usually diagnosed in dogs that are 6 years or older, but I actually saw a 3 year old this winter that I was so sure was affected. You could see his skin right through his winter coat, he was shaped like a blimp but his owner swore he was eating only about 2 cups of kibble a day and he would simply lay down in the snow rather than walk around the park with the other dogs. I tried for 2 months to convince the woman everytime I saw her to get her vet to run a panel but she would tell me her vet keeps telling her he was way too young to have a thyroid problem and put him on prescription diet kibble instead. I kept after the woman every time I saw her at the park and eventually her vet ran the tests and got him on the thyroid hormone and it made me feel really good to see the new Brady (her Golden) emerge. Foz how old is Ace? I thought he was like maybe just 2-years? That would be awful young but that article linked above I believe states it begin at puberty and increases with aging.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Does he have a temp/fever?


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## Fozzybear (Feb 27, 2008)

monomer said:


> Foz how old is Ace? I thought he was like maybe just 2-years? That would be awful young but that article linked above I believe states it begin at puberty and increases with aging.


Note quite 2 yet. Will be on October 2nd.



Ljilly28 said:


> Does he have a temp/fever?


No obvious temp or fever.

Ace had a good night. Got up this morning with no limp or trouble walking etc... Which is a good thing after last night when my 16 year old put his car in the ditch. (he is ok and so are the friends he wasn't supposed to have in the car with him). So I wasn't in the mood to deal with more problems this morning.

Downloaded the Dr. Dodds form and going to have them send the blood in from the vet when we see him. He might be to young but it will be a baseline if nothingg else and its is one of the cheaper things to eliminate first.


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