# hunting the AOF



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Something I noticed between yesterday and today is that while Flip does great when he can see a mark, he seems to have no idea what to do if he gets out there and doesn't immediately see it. He doesn't seem to have any concept of putting up a hunt.

Conner never had that problem...on his very first mark ever he put up a nice hunt and always has. 

So it got me to thinking....is this something that should come naturally to a retriever? It seems that it is a very natural instinct for Conner but for Flip he's going to have to be encouraged to bring it out in him(yay Conner, you finally beat your little brother at something!).


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> Something I noticed between yesterday and today is that while Flip does great when he can see a mark, he seems to have no idea what to do if he gets out there and doesn't immediately see it. He doesn't seem to have any concept of putting up a hunt.


So, how about a little more information about Flip? How old is he? What specific training has he had? How have you developed him on marks? How did you present him with cover and distance?


Loisiana said:


> Conner never had that problem...on his very first mark ever he put up a nice hunt and always has.


And, of course, each dog is different. Train the dog you're training. This one has different needs, and that's to be expected. I'm really curious about the above questions, though.


Loisiana said:


> So it got me to thinking....is this something that should come naturally to a retriever? It seems that it is a very natural instinct for Conner but for Flip he's going to have to be encouraged to bring it out in him(yay Conner, you finally beat your little brother at something!).


Yes, encouraged and conditioned. But to offer any real help I need a baseline.

EvanG


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

EvanG said:


> So, how about a little more information about Flip? How old is he? What specific training has he had? How have you developed him on marks? How did you present him with cover and distance?EvanG


Flip's just starting out, he's 10 months old. We focused more on obedience work when he was younger, just started running marks about a month ago. Haven't really done much in cover yet, just a few times the bumper happened to land in a way that it wasn't really visible, and he didn't seem to know how to go about finding it. His natural tendency is to want to come back to me (he is such a momma's boy) and I know I absolutely don't want that. Had the bird boy help him out some to keep him in the area, but he seems to be depending on the bird boy too much. If he can't see the mark from the line he'll just run to the area of the bird boy and then look for the bumper based on the bird boy's location. He has lots of drive and desire, but doesn't have a lot of perserverance yet.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

What if, for a short time, seed the AOF with several bumpers so he is bound to come upon one as soon as he gets to the mark? I, too, would be very careful about letting the bird boy help too many times, as you are starting to see.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

:--evil:yes, it does seem like males are into immediate gratification. After all, my husband will open the refrigerator door, glance inside, then say, "don't we have any (fill in the blank)". Rather than bending down and looking on any shelf other than the one right in front of his eyes. 

So Flip is just being a typical male :


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> Flip's just starting out, he's 10 months old. We focused more on obedience work when he was younger, just started running marks about a month ago. Haven't really done much in cover yet, just a few times the bumper happened to land in a way that it wasn't really visible, and he didn't seem to know how to go about finding it. His natural tendency is to want to come back to me (he is such a momma's boy) and I know I absolutely don't want that. Had the bird boy help him out some to keep him in the area, but he seems to be depending on the bird boy too much. If he can't see the mark from the line he'll just run to the area of the bird boy and then look for the bumper based on the bird boy's location. He has lots of drive and desire, but doesn't have a lot of perserverance yet.


Do you have access to training birds? Do you have the ability to keep frozen birds; pigeons, ducks, etc? They make a huge difference in any retriever, especially when developing a strong hunt. 

Work into very gradually deeper cover. Not too much too soon, of course. But as you do begin working into some cover, keep the distances relatively short to promote success.

Dogs do things as they do in the field as a result of their expectations. Build the expectation of success through making the marks more doable.

EvanG


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

One of my training partner's dogs went through a phase of this. This dog was an EXTREMELY good marker and VERY high drive -- but if he did not come up with the bird on the first pass through the AOF, he would loop back around and head in. He was so used to immediate success that he figured, well I didn't find it, must not be here! 
We used a lot of gunner help, in that, the second the dog committed to heading in, made noise with the gun or duck call, usually that was enough to get him back in the area and hunting, sometimes a second throw. Luckily the dog isn't prone to fixating on gunners so this actually did seem to work over time to keep him in the area until he got used to putting up a hunt. 
I have mixed feelings on salting the AOF with bumpers on a case like this, Evan tell me if you think my thoughts are right in this. With a dog like this it's not helping to make him find a bumper faster...that's what he wants and to salt the area so he comes up with one right away is just reinforcing what he wants and expects. It does not help him establish a hunt, rather it cuts down on the chance he will have to hunt. For a dog who lacks confidence, this may work, but I know with my friend's dog and with Flip, lack of confidence was not the issue! Lack of perseverance was. 
Rather than salting the area with bumpers, why don't you lay out a lot of scent in the AOF, either have Flip run last, rub birds on the grass, pluck feathers, etc. The scent will keep him in the area.
Thanks for bringing up these topics, they are good ones.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ah, good point Anney, I was thinking build confidence and increase desire to retrieve by always being successful, but you are correct, if Flip doesn't need confidence then salting isn't the way to go.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

You could also do a "hunt it up" lesson by dragging and then planting two or three dead birds in cover and then encouraging him to get in there and find them. I sometimes do this with my younger dogs to get the idea in their heads as we have a quartering test in our SH.

I find that my dogs who put on the best AOF hunts are also the dogs I do upland hunting with the most. They have learned to dig in where there is scent and work it out until they come up with a bird. So letting him chase down a clipped-wind or shackled bird planted in cover may also increase his willingness to stick in there and hunt it out.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I just went out in the backyard with all four dogs (Colby has decided fence jumping is fun so he either has to be supervised or on a tie-out). Someone had brought a rubber toy onto the patio so I tossed it out in the yard. Flip decided he wanted to retrieve it and ran after it. But since it was so dark he couldn't find it.

He searched and searched and made circle after circle but couldn't find it. He looked at me and took a few steps toward me and I thought "oh great, that just reinforced his problem," but he turned around and starting looking for it again. Finally, he must have gotten a sniff of it, because he dove about 3 yards over and grabbed it. I figure that's got to be a positive sign (or at least I'll choose to see it that way!).

I tend to freak out over everything I try with Flip. I think he should be able to do everything naturally with no training or else pick it up right away, and when he doesn't I start to worry. First I thought he would never learn how to properly handle a bird. When he doesn't pin a mark I think he had no marking ability. Then I think he'll never have the patience to keep up a hunt. I go through all the same freaking out with his obedience work (three months ago I was absolutely certain that he would never be able to heel without bouncing up and down and forging). I guess I need to just relax, bring out the instincts he was born with, and do what I can to add to what he doesn't naturally have.

Nothing like working with a new dog to bring out my insecurities as a trainer!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Jodie I know I've said it before but I'll say it again, your thoughts with Flip mirror mine with Slater. Every other day I think something is terminally broken with him and that it'll never work. Then the next day something is brilliant and I can't see how it won't be easy! Was Fisher easier as a puppy or did I just not know the difference? 
Insecurities as a trainer is right!!!


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

We all get 'em! Dooley popped the other day and I'm like 'great, I've ruined my dog by pushing too hard'. We went back a few steps and he did fine. I think it is a sign of a good trainer to analyze not only the work the dog is doing, but the work and planning the trainer is doing. When you threw the ducky in the bush, you quickly analyzed what you just did. Good Job!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> Flip's just starting out, he's 10 months old. We focused more on obedience work when he was younger, just started running marks about a month ago. Haven't really done much in cover yet, just a few times the bumper happened to land in a way that it wasn't really visible, and he didn't seem to know how to go about finding it. His natural tendency is to want to come back to me (he is such a momma's boy) and I know I absolutely don't want that. Had the bird boy help him out some to keep him in the area, but he seems to be depending on the bird boy too much. If he can't see the mark from the line he'll just run to the area of the bird boy and then look for the bumper based on the bird boy's location. He has lots of drive and desire, but doesn't have a lot of perserverance yet.


Have you begun formal Basics yet? And are you marking with birds more than bumpers, or more bumpers than birds?

EvanG


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

EvanG said:


> Have you begun formal Basics yet? And are you marking with birds more than bumpers, or more bumpers than birds?
> 
> EvanG


We've done force fetch except for force to pile, I plan to start his obedience scent article work in the next couple weeks and then we'll go back and do force to pile. Saturday was his first time using birds on marks....he had a tendency to want to destroy birds so I wanted to wait until we had finished forcing on birds before we used them out in the field. (I was proud of how he handled the birds, not a sign of mouthing or feather ripping at all).


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Good plan, Jodie. But lacking birds may end up being key to his AOF issues. Time will tell.

EvanG


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