# fear-agression in an 8 year old



## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

Have you talked to your veterinarian about this?

You may find some information and inspiration on this blog: Reactive Champion: Best Of

My understanding is that your veterinarian can call and talk to a board certified veterinary behaviorist at a university at no charge to your vet (though your vet may charge you for the time it takes to do the call). 

If you have it in your schedule and budget you may think about (carefully) making a road trip to go see a veterinary behaviorist as well - in some ways your dog does not sound nearly as reactive as many dogs I have met.... but it also seems like you need someone to help point you in the right direction for the help you need.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

You're certainly not alone... I have a nine-year-old Aussie who sounds very much like your girl and I know too well that stressed, embarrassed feeling when people look at you like you must be a terrible person. At the same time, I love her so much and wouldn't part with her...but there are days when it's really tough.

There are several others here who have dealt with this. There's a brilliant thread that has many good suggestions...here is the link:

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-behavioral-problems-issues/299937-coming-age-dog-aggression.html

Actually, it sounds like you've done a really good job with her and she's so lucky to have ended up in your care. A behavioral consult, even long distance, sounds like a great idea.


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## maypoles (Dec 22, 2014)

Thank-you for the links; they are both great! And thanks for the kind words too. 

I would be surprised if my vet has that resource here, but I will discuss it with her.


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## DJdogman (Apr 23, 2013)

Hi there - my boy is 2 years old and is also fear-aggressive and it mainly comes out on walks. I fully understand how utterly stressful it is when they bark and lunge and growl. 

I brought him to a behaviourist 2 weeks ago and we have another class tonight. We were told that after a stress incident i.e. when he sees another dog, it takes 3 days for their cortisol (stress) levels to go back to normal. So were advised to not bring him anywhere for 3 days, to just exercise him in the house throwing a ball up the stairs etc (we also have another boy who he wrestles with a lot).

I can tell you after the 3 days of no walks and no stresses, he was so much calmer and more relaxed around the house, he didn't even seem to miss the walks. I felt bad at first especially as I left the house with our other dog, but then realised if he's not enjoying the walks and they're stressing him out, why keep forcing them on him? Now, under his behaviourists orders, I bring him in the car and give him lots and lots of treats and chews so it has become his safe haven, then go where there are other dogs and watch them from the car from very far away. We're now at about 30 feet and he's not reacting, just watching them.

We're still in the middle of training and I know its going to be a slow process but so worth it to give him the active life I want to give him. Maybe your baby could do with less walks so less stressful situations?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

This is a training center in Dallas, TX, so I know you can't go to this class, but I would encourage you to find a training center or trainer that offers a Reactive Dog class like this one. A good trainer can really help.

Reactive Integration Level 1 - Welcome to All FUR Fun


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## maypoles (Dec 22, 2014)

That makes total sense about the cortisol levels. Interesting! I have some secluded areas I could take her for exercise, where there would most likely be no triggers, so I could try doing that if she had a major meltdown sometime. 

What I've been doing is if it looks like someone else has control of their dog or is someone who looks okay walking by, is to actually purposefully put her in those situations and click treat her when she does well. She's definitely done better since I started using clicker training a couple of years ago. The only other thing that helps is when we run; she gets in the zone and will give a little growl on her way past another dog and that's it. TOTALLY different than when we're walking. I have a recent chronic illness that doesn't let me run anymore, but I am hoping I can gear work myself physically back up to it. 

Thinking about it, I feel like her cortisol levels must be up so much of the time, aw. Like, beyond aggression incidents, the snow plow terrifies her and thunder will have her shaking for hours and to the point where she refuses food. She's definitely a bit weird the day after a storm.

As for a reactive dog class, there is one two hours away and I'm not sure about the trainer's methods. We're really lacking for things like that around here, unfortunately. I take the local obedience class, though. Even it is only offered once a year.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Rather than wait for a meltdown or putting her into situations you know can be challenging for her, I might consider an experiment for thirty days where your goal is to let her remain stress-free (to the extent you have control over it, can't control the weather!) 

Exercise her only in that safe place and work hard on your training and make it really fun for her? Then start slowly and always at a comfortable distance, expose her to the regular routes you take. If you see stress signals--panting, corners of her mouth stretched, pupils dilating, and especially if she stops taking treats--you're pushing it too far. Back off for a week for her to recover and try again.

I really like clicker training for this--I can reward tiny moments of calm behavior--so it's great that you're using that.

Another thought is to talk to your vet about medication. I've had good success with Clomicalm, others use Prozac (fluoxetine). At this stage of her life, IMO, the goal would be to make her remaining years happier and more relaxed. If she never greets another strange dog nose to nose, so what? It's quality of life that matters.

My girl is never going to be Miss Congeniality, but I know that she is not a danger to others and that she enjoys her life.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I didn't see it mentioned here. Have you had her thyroid levels tested? A complete thyroid panel is a good starting point. Fear and anxiety are two of the many symptoms of hypothyroidism.


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## maypoles (Dec 22, 2014)

That sounds like it makes sense (the keeping her away from triggers for 30 days) however I would be worried to do that as she is markedly better in the weeks following obedience class when passing other dogs, then she backslides a bit. She's exposed constantly to dogs during class in a way I can't replicate later, and she does show stress signs during class ( panting, etc.) but getting used to something is how fear is broken down in her case. I should also say what I mean when I say I put her in those situations, is I usually walk with my mom, who will approach someone with a dog and talk with them. I will hang back until the other dog has stopped walking towards her (her trigger) and then move closer. Then she and the other dog will sit peacefully next to each other. 

I don't care about her meeting other dogs, but I worry about my mom walking her alone and her getting away and going after another dog. Honestly the dog thing is stressful, but I can deal. I'm much more concerned over the people issue. It's impossible not to have people over, tradespeople and friends, and I hate being anxious in my own house until she gets used to someone. (This takes several visits at least.). And if there is a child visiting and I leave her upstairs, she cries and I feel guilty but it has to be done. That situation would end badly, I fear.

I'm on meds but have never considered them for my dog. What kind of effects do you get, agression-related or otherwise? Is your dog more lethargic?

Her thyroid levels have never been checked, no. What should her levels be?


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

When our first golden was about 4 he started snarling at the boys net door. There is a 6 foot wooden fence around our yard. the boys were like 3 and 7 and were/are terrors. The youngest is actually a total nut who has torn their house to shreds, stabbed the older on a year ago (he was 17, the older on 21) and the mom does nothing because "he is my baby". Her own family won't even com around and none of her one time friends do either.

But, I had thought maybe they were standing on the picnic table on the other side of the fence and throwing rocks, etc at Scooter. But he started putting on pounds and fur getting thin and coarse and he just didn't have any energy. Turns out he had low thyroid, was put on meds and diet dog food, fur came back nice and soft, pounds cme off and once again he "liked" the boys next doorl

For the record several years later hs full brother, later litter was also diagnosed with low thyroid. Buck didn't have a single symptom, but the low thyroid was caught during predental blood panel--and his was worse than Scooter' had ever bee. They can have some or all or in the case of Buck, none of the symptoms. I know you sweet girl has other problem,s but perhaps if she is low thyroid it makes them worse. Good luck and thanks for caring for her the way you do. To many dump dogs like her rather than try to help.


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## maypoles (Dec 22, 2014)

Thanks for sharing your story. I am definitely going to get her thyroid checked; nobody has ever suggested this to me before this thread and if that was some of the problem, I'd feel guilty but also really happy. It gives me hope your second dog had no symptoms, because I just read them and my dog doesn't have any of the physical symptoms at all.

My dog's issues were there from really young puppyhood, which I understand is unusual for thyroid, however, her dog aggression really only started at 2. Before that, she was like that with people, traffic, etc, but not dogs. She was very well socialized and playful. She had one incident with a dog when she was younger than 2 when it came around a corner, startling her, but that was it. I couldn't imagine what I did wrong and read up on it and decided it was a coming of age thing, but now I wonder.

I've been reading up on thyroid around here and see that low-normal is considered low for a golden. Is there anything on this I could print off and show to my vet? I want to explain what I 'm looking for without sounding like I don't know what I'm talking about.


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## maypoles (Dec 22, 2014)

Oh, and I just read a bit about hemopet and I'm a bit confused. Should I send blood samples to them re: thyroid? I was just thinking my vet would do the test and read the results herself, but hemopet sounds like the way the tests are read by them is much more involved? Will my vet even know of hemopet? (I'm in Canada.). And would the vet send the blood samples there, or do I send them myself?


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

My vet has diagnosed both of my low thyroid dogs through blood tests that they sent out to a lab. I just asked for a full thyroid panel.


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## maypoles (Dec 22, 2014)

Okay, I am just going to do that then. Thanks!


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## maypoles (Dec 22, 2014)

Just wanted to thank you guys for the suggestion about thyroid testing and give you an update - I got a thyroid panel done (the regular one through my vet) and she is borderline low!

The vet didn't recommend the testing as she doesn't present as thyroid physically AT ALL - slim to the point where everyone at the vet office always asks how I keep her that way, perfect coat, no allergies or hot spots or digestive issues, etc. But she was really receptive to me wanting it checked out, and to the reading I'd done here about goldens. She was surprised by her results and interested to see how the medication works. We're putting her on 0.5 mg thyrox.... something (I can't read her spelling) for a month with the option to bump up the dosage next month. (She's 65 pounds, btw.) Her results are weird, though, because from my understanding usually in cases like this the TSH is high whereas the T3/T4s are low, and that isn't how she is presenting. Anyone have any ideas about that?

These are her results. I've tried to compare them with results others have reposted of Dr. Dodds' on here, but the measurements used are different, so I can't figure them out.

T3 Baseline - SERUM 0.899 nmol/L / Reference range 0.6 - 2.4
T4 Baseline - SERUM 26.3 nmol/L / Reference range 15-52
TSH - SERUM 0.495 ng/mL / Canine TSH reference less than 0.50 ng/mL

I know she has learned fear responses by this point, and I assume also has something genetic going on behaviourally since she's been shy since literally 8 weeks old and I can't see thyroid stuff appearing that early? But the dog aggression popped up suddenly at 2 years, which is apparently textbook for this, so I'm hoping maybe this will calm her down a bit there at least, and help with her training. She has some phobias that sound textbook too, so, fingers crossed.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Thank you so much for following up here. I have all my fingers crossed that this will help your girl be happier!


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## maypoles (Dec 22, 2014)

An update: The initial low dose of thyroid medication had no effect but we upped it and there has been improvement on every front except for with other dogs, where things seem the same - which is what I was really hoping it would help with, but whatever, I will definitely take this!  

Her barking at people on "her" street has been much reduced, as well as her reaction when someone new comes to the door. I don't remember if I mentioned her reaction to thunder before, but it's improved dramatically too. I know a lot of them don't like thunder, but one clap would send her hiding behind the sofa for a half an hour, shaking, drooling and refusing treats. We had thunder the other day and she sort of stared at the window, disturbed, but that was it! I was sooooo happy for her. She also seems less freaked out by small kids, but I don't want to test that too much. Her anxiety in general is just noticeably less, although I would still not trust her if a stranger startled her. (I know any dog can get startled, but she still startles much more easily than any dog.)

This surprised me, but she also has much more energy; she always had/has a walk or run in the morning but now she has a really playful period in the evening too. The only bad thing, although probably a good thing for her, is that she is STRONGER. Thankfully, she rarely pulls on leash, but when she does, she is definitely stronger. 

I feel guilty I didn't know about this before, and I never would have if I hadn't read about it here, so thanks again, guys! I guess there was no way I could have known, since she doesn't have ANY physical symptoms and that's what most vets pick up on, but I can't help but wonder how things would have turned out if I'd been able to get her treatment younger. I still feel like her temperment issues are genetic and not all thyroid-related, since what else could cause a well-soclialized, dog class attending, trained puppy to be so shy? Can thyoid really affect a dog - even a golden who seems to get the issue earlier in life than many other breeds - from puppyhood? 

Anywayyyy, I wanted to share!


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm so thrilled for you and for her!

It's probably just a combination of factors...genetics, personality...and then you add in feeling poorly for a long time? I can tell you as someone who's been hypothyroid for twenty years that when my meds are too low, I'm miserable. And when I'm miserable...let's just say I can probably rule out ever being voted Miss Congeniality!

As her anxiety continues to lessen, it could have a cumulative effect for even more improvement, especially as yours will, too.

Congratulations and good for you!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I am so glad the meds are helping so much! I honestly had no idea about how a low thyroid could affect a dog so negatively until I had one of my dogs diagnosed at just 2 years old.


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