# Hunt and Field Training Plans for the Week of Jan. 22-28



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I know I'm a day early here, but I was afraid I wouldn't get to it tomorrow.
So welcome back to the hunt/field specific plans! What's up with everyone?

We've got a major "snow event" going on right now, so I know we won't get to any field training this week until MAYBE thursday. Hoping to get to Dan's on Thursday if the weather moderates a bit. Didn't get there yesterday, it was 6 degrees out and windy...NO THANKS!!!

Oh Anney, is the guest bedroom ready???


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

YES! Did I tell you the great news? My parents are moving OUT! WHOOPEE!!!! They found a house in Dunedin and are leaving in 2 weeks. So the guest room is officially back!  

Jacksonville Retriever Club (my home club) has their fun/picnic trial tomorrow, I have Fisher in the Open and Qual and Slater in the Qual. I have no idea what to expect. Should be fun. Our annual banquet is tomorrow night as well. Will give a full report Sunday!


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I want dibs!!!!! Haha!


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> YES! Did I tell you the great news? My parents are moving OUT! WHOOPEE!!!! They found a house in Dunedin and are leaving in 2 weeks. So the guest room is officially back!
> 
> Jacksonville Retriever Club (my home club) has their fun/picnic trial tomorrow, I have Fisher in the Open and Qual and Slater in the Qual. I have no idea what to expect. Should be fun. Our annual banquet is tomorrow night as well. Will give a full report Sunday!



Good luck anney!


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Got a club meeting tomorrow afternoon to set the plans for the weekly training schedule for the 2012 club year. The young dog group is usually pretty straight forward. Teaching basic OB, introduction to birds and guns, Hold, Fetch, Walking Fetch, Stick Fetch, FTP, singles in the field, steady the dog, intro to doubles, then get them running Junior. Usually the Newbies are finishing up Junior Titles by the end of the training season. 


The planning for the advanced dogs gets more complicated because they aren't all at the same point in their training. Some are just learning basic casting, others are QAA finished master dogs. In the past we've done a tough master test setup each week. While this is nice for keeping a master dog sharp, it really hasn't helped dogs and handlers progress through senior to master. We really need to add concept drills to help people make progress with their dogs. Coming up with a strategy that is acceptable for most is going to be a challange.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Swampcollie said:


> The planning for the advanced dogs gets more complicated because they aren't all at the same point in their training. Some are just learning basic casting, others are QAA finished master dogs. In the past we've done a tough master test setup each week. While this is nice for keeping a master dog sharp, it really hasn't helped dogs and handlers progress through senior to master. We really need to add concept drills to help people make progress with their dogs. Coming up with a strategy that is acceptable for most is going to be a challange.


Here's an idea because we struggle with this in our own training group, mainly because we have three master dogs, Slater in senior and a few junior dogs.
We set up that hard Master test. Juniors can run the marks as singles, no problem, and adjust the line as needed.
For Slater at senior, I can take out a mark, or do the memory birds as singles before running a triple or hard double. His blinds I can run FIRST before any marks, then re-run them after doing the marks. 
Singles and blinds first before putting it together is a nice way to transition those senior dogs into doing master work in a group setting. They get more line time (two trips) but in the end it saves everyone time because they aren't out there taking forever helping their dog through the complete setup. The hard part is getting their owners to admit they are not ready to run it cold!!!
I agree though, there are lots of drills or isolated concepts that the dogs need to go through for master. I.e. shoreline blinds, under the arc, poison birds, etc, no good way to teach those in a group setup situation. Maybe each week introduce a drill/concept for one particular thing, and I bet everyone even the master dogs would appreciate it.
Sounds like a nice club!!!


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

We're fortunate that we have the facilities to run the dogs in two groups. Young dogs are in a group by themselves (Usually around 20 - 25 dogs) 

Our advanced dog group is a little smaller (10 -15 dogs), and that's what we're trying to change. We need to help those 10 dogs we seem to lose each year hang around and become more successful in advancing to the next level.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well it's early for this thread...but we did a modified t drill today which went smoothly.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

One of the things my club did (after separating the younger/less experienced dogs to another group) was a sign-up and a running & worker schedule that each member receives a day or two ahead of time. I do know that many years back before they started the running and working orders, I was one of the folks who quit - I'd hang around and/or work all day and not get to run my dogs. Now we know what group we are in, where we are training (multiple spots within the advanced or beginner groups) and when we work. And everything really runs much better 

The more advanced group can run their marks or blinds as singles, doubles etc and can also simplify as needed by walking up. each session has a few concepts in mind as well.

The club has had a few articles in the GR News (SBGRC) outlining the changes that are turning our sessions into a great time and learning experience for everyone from the newbies to the field trialers.



Swampcollie said:


> We're fortunate that we have the facilities to run the dogs in two groups. Young dogs are in a group by themselves (Usually around 20 - 25 dogs)
> 
> Our advanced dog group is a little smaller (10 -15 dogs), and that's what we're trying to change. We need to help those 10 dogs we seem to lose each year hang around and become more successful in advancing to the next level.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Worked on the modified t again today. She was doing really well but over time started to break down a little and I pushed her through it. I had a couple cast refusals which I promptly followed with a sit*nick*sit and if that didn't work an ear pinch to the correct pile. There was improvement after that. 

So I am starting to wonder if that is my problem. When we went through single t and double t while I had bugging and popping problems I never had to work through a cast refusal. Hence when I get to cold blinds and I have freezing and/or wrong casts I have nothing to enforce or fall back on. So it hopefully be good to go back to the yard and work on modified t, and maybe even t and really push her harder so that I can correct those things there. When I was at Pete's it wasn't until the third blind when things started to get sloppy...the first was beautiful and it made him think we were ready to move on. The second was good. Third was yucky. Thoughts? (I may be off base here, but this is my current thoughts).


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Maybe someone here can explain this better than I can, Lisa, but we never do a sit-nick-sit for a cast refusal. 
Again, all trainers are different, but you might want to ask Pete about this. The proper correction for a refusal to move, according to Dan, is a moving correction (here-nick-here or heel-nick-heel, depending on where the dog is). The proper correction for moving when you are not supposed to is sit-nick-sit. 
Dan says you don't correct a dog for not going by making them sit.
I'm not doing a very good job with this. Anyone else???


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I am going to call him on Monday and ask about it. That is what he was having me do (sit*nick*sit) when she didn't cast over. I thought that was indirect pressure?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I know I'm not explaining this very well. It's still indirect pressure, but Dan says you don't correct a "dynamic" mistake with a "static" command, and vice versa. It makes sense to me the way he explains it.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok, I understand what you are saying. But...is that standard or does that vary by trainer? I am just reading this from Pat Nolan



> To correct for cast refusal using indirect pressure, whistle sit your dog. If needed, call in to reposition, whistle sit, tap, tap, tap, tap, on sit, and whistle sit again. Then recast.
> This works on three levels to improve casting response. First, the dog is unsuccessful in his choice of response. Dogs will eventually eliminate behavior that does not bring reward. Second, the e-collar tap on sit is an unpleasant result of the inappropriate response. Dogs will eventually eliminate behavior that results in discomfort. Finally, dogs generalize information; improvement in the dog’s performance on the sit command carries over to other commands.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

This whole week is going to be dedicated to getting BaWaaJige to heel off leash every place. We are starting tomorrow in Walker. I hope it isnt as cold as today was at training. it was -4 but the wind was like -15 or so. Walker is right on the lake so it is even colder. 

Everyone at training today said they thought Jige could pass the upland test if he will walk off leash. He does everything else perfectly. ( I hope to have pictures by the end of the week).


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I think you guys (Hotel and Sail) are using the term CAST REFUSAL incorrectly.
Although it's a bit of a misnomer a "Cast refusal" is when a dog is given a cast, and begins to move, but in the wrong direction. He is refusing your correct cast. So if you cast back and he goes over that's a cast refusal. 
Refusing to move when given a cast is something different and really doesn't have a good name that everyone uses, but freezing is a good one. 
So with that in mind, cast refusals ARE commonly treated with indirect pressure via sit-nick-sit (or attrition). Using a sit-nick-sit on a dog who is freezing on a cast in my opinion doesn't work very well. The dog tries HARDER to SIT and thus, moves less! 
So having said all that, Lise do you mean she is freezing when you are giving casts or is she giving you lots of cast refusals (taking bad casts)?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Today was our club trial -- an okay day! Highs and lows for us.
Started out with Fisher in the "open" and frankly it sucked. It was a big double, retired memory bird and flyer for the go-bird. Pick up flyer, run a blind deep of and through the flyer AOF, then pick up memory bird. It was like Fisher looked out there and said "Crap you're not really going to make me run that far are you?" He jogged out there, got his flyer, came back, took a great line for the blind and COMPLETELY broke down in the flyer AOF, I had to call him in. I moved way up and sent him again to the blind which he did without any fanfare. OF course by then he completely forgot the memory bird, we just had the guy re-throw it. Fisher was like ugg, spare me.

So we hastily retreat to the car and drive over the "qual." Which really was just a big open master setup with white coats. Triple with long punch bird retired, flyer as the go bird, then a double blind outside the marks. 

I ran Slater first, you had the option of the memory bird retiring or not. Being that he's done about 5 triples in his whole life I had him stay out. Well Slater did awesome. Just ran right to the falls and hunted them up. He also did lovely on the blinds which was great! I felt really good about that.
Then later on, Fisher's turn, it was like he did a sigh of relief that this was much more do-able. He pretty much did the triple with his eyes closed (even crept a little on the flyer -- go Fishie) and one-whistled both blinds. All in a day's work. I didn't go back for the water marks in the Open, enough was enough.
Well 
I only ran Slater in the water, they had a triple but I had them just throw two marks as a double. We are having some really weird stuff with water. UGG I will say that Slater does understand clearly he must leave and get in the water. However his confidence is low at this point. Because of that I haven't done any decheating with him. This sucks. The go-bird was straight across the water probably 100 yards, when I sent him he sorta crept out a few feet and did a head-fake toward the water, never did turn around, pop, come back, whatever, but a few stutter-steps, then cheated around a good portion of the pond, swam through the narrow channel at the end, got out ran around and got his bird. Memory bird was basically on that same line across the channel so no swimming there either. The only good news was he did the water blind really well. My goal the next two weeks are to do the most successful water singles ever and just get his attitude up. 
So anyways, there you have it!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

She's done both and yes I was using the term incorrectly--froze two times before I went to the pro this past Monday. One time was my fault (I sat her almost immediately after taking a wrong cast--so I think she wanted to quit trying). Not sure about the second. It wasn't until Monday when we ran three blinds and got to the last blind and had some freezing and cast refusal (bad casts--going where she wanted to go).

So, I never had that problem in basic handling. Is it better to have freezing and cast refusals in the yard with basic handling to work through it? What is generally done for freezing?

EDIT: The details are hazy to me. Maybe the sit*nick*sit was for cast refusal and not freezing.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Anney have you forced Slater on water and if you haven't will you? While Scout loves swimming (and is very good at it) her water entries can be iffy and she's not always super confident about it.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Yes he has had water force both from my side when we had issues last year (which were resolved) and remote during swim-by. 
That is the only positive from what he did today, was clearly he didn't want to go but knew he had to. When he's not going through a weird phase he has really strong water entry and a good swimmer. My job to figure out why or at least, to get him rolling again. 

I have had problems with Fisher freezing on casts, ongoing for a long time. What really worked --sounded crazy at first -- but when he freezes and refuses to move on a cast, I walk all the way out there to him, get him pointed in the general direction of the blind, and do a big heel-burn-heel and send. Took doing that about 3 times before FIsher would take off when I took one step toward him. 
However I will say that I still get this occasionally, I can get him to move with a verbal cast which I follow up immediately with force (so back-nick-back essentially). Nicking while they are sitting still doesn't work. Some people do a here-nick-here to get them up and moving, not sure if I've tried that.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Oh and having said all that, I would not do that with a young dog coming out of transition. Yes when you start running your cold blinds is when all of this stuff will show up. You have to work through it with attrition and really praise them on every blind to build confidence. I would be reluctant to use ANY collar when you are running a cold blind at this stage. The more cold blinds you do the better they will get at cold blinds. For freezing I think an appropriate measure would be to walk in and cast again, a lot of time increasing proximity of the handler will make a dog uncomfortable and want to move. For cast refusals, just use attrition. Stop and cast, stop and cast, stop and cast, if she gets so far out of the way just call her in until she is back on line and cast again. This is how they learn to handle, don't give up or get frustrated, and don't think you have to go back to square one every time she makes a mistake. They are always going to make mistakes, even in master very few dogs line the blinds!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks! I have been reluctant to use the collar on cold blinds...but he did want me to use it at times. For example, if she had several cast refusals in a row (like 3). It's just hard...I've never done this thing before and I have to put my faith in someone more experienced than I to get me through it.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Where was that article I read about how even the top dogs have their bad days/runs...they just have them less often!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Thanks! I have been reluctant to use the collar on cold blinds...but he did want me to use it at times. For example, if she had several cast refusals in a row (like 3). It's just hard...I've never done this thing before and I have to put my faith in someone more experienced than I to get me through it.


That is true, and he is seeing it, not me. I will ask though, was she trying to return to an old blind? Or was there some mitigating factor attracting her? Are you just doing overs & backs? (no angle backs)
I do a lot of wide-open blinds in big, featureless fields. Don't put them any where near each other so the dog is not attracted to go back to the old blind, and if they finally take a good cast you can let them roll with it a long way before having to stop them again. Set up 3 or 4 all in completely different directions. Praise like crazy when she gets back even if she hacked it to pieces. These are perfect for beginner blind runners or as therapy.
You will have LOTS of bad days or months when they are falling apart at something. I'm pretty sure I have terminally damaged both my dogs like a million times. But you work through it. If this shiznit were easy, everyone would do it!!!!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well, honestly there are a few factors that probably really hurt that last blind. Yes, she was suctioned to the one of the other two she had just ran. Also, the blind was planted with birds and while she will pick up birds now, bumpers are far more motivating for her at this point. He had me also at one point back*nick*back but I think it was little high for her _on that day _and she spun and kept going. 

Group training tomorrow. Maybe I'll get a cd of my runs and will share (frightening)...but if someone can learn from it I suppose I'll post if I get them. No other way to get better.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

GoldenSail, I think blind meltdowns are some sort of right of passage in field work. 
The only suggestion I have is, before you talk to your trainer write out the list of questions you have and take notes when he answers. It's so easy for the conversation to get side tracked and then you forget to ask something, or can't quite remember what they said.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I really don't know, I'm guessing it must vary by trainer? I wish someone who knows a lot more than I do (which would be pretty much everyone) would jump in and answer. (edit to add...I posted that before I read Anney's replies, thanks Anney)
The only time we use a sit-nick-sit on a cast refusal is when he didn't go because he was looking away from me. Then he gets a sit-nick-sit for lack of focus. 



GoldenSail said:


> Ok, I understand what you are saying. But...is that standard or does that vary by trainer? I am just reading this from Pat Nolan


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

You're totally right, and I know better. I'm not thinking of cast refusals, in which case yes we use a sit-nick-sit because he's blowing me off. I'm thinking of what you are calling freezing, or I guess a form of no-go on a cast. When the dog is sitting, you give him the cast, and he looks at you like you are from another planet and just sits there. That's when Dan says you don't give a sit-nick-sit because the dog is already sitting, and not planning on going anywhere. It makes more sense the way you said it.




K9-Design said:


> I think you guys (Hotel and Sail) are using the term CAST REFUSAL incorrectly.
> Although it's a bit of a misnomer a "Cast refusal" is when a dog is given a cast, and begins to move, but in the wrong direction. He is refusing your correct cast. So if you cast back and he goes over that's a cast refusal.
> Refusing to move when given a cast is something different and really doesn't have a good name that everyone uses, but freezing is a good one.
> So with that in mind, cast refusals ARE commonly treated with indirect pressure via sit-nick-sit (or attrition). Using a sit-nick-sit on a dog who is freezing on a cast in my opinion doesn't work very well. The dog tries HARDER to SIT and thus, moves less!
> So having said all that, Lise do you mean she is freezing when you are giving casts or is she giving you lots of cast refusals (taking bad casts)?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

BTW, I'm really glad this thread is back. Some great discussions going on here.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

I don't use sit nick sit for cast refusals. I use for for not sitting fast enough or a whistle refusal. Cast refusals I pull the dog back in to where they made the mistake (they don't like coming back which i think is a form of attrition) Give the same cast. If they don't take it pull them back to the same spot again. Repeat. If I collar correct it will be stopping them. Here Burn Here bringing the dog back to the point of the mistake sweat the dog out a bit and give em time to clear their head and recast. My .02
The point where I use the Here Burn Here depends on the dogs attitude on taking the cast. But usually after the second refusal.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Set-up a double with a hip-pocket plus single past some decoys. Scout broke on the double and given the close proximity to each other she went for the wrong one. I called her back in and made her do it again.

Second set-up was the same field but we moved over to the decoys and did a flower pot with the gunners directly in line with each other. The back gunner threw in and beyond the decoys, while the closest gunner through the opposite direction. I ran them as single (didn't want to do another double). Scout took off for the long mark past the decoys, but then veered off toward where the mark had been for the first set-up. Thankfully someone pointed this out to me because I thought my dog was crazy or something. So I made her re-run it and she was fine.

Today reminded me of something I should do, but really haven't. I need to teach my dog to run from my right side so I can use it to my advantage on different scenarios. I have done it a few times, but not seriously tried to train it. I've been...lazy in that regard. I'd also like to train her to heel from the right as well.

After everyone left I stuck around and did the modified t again. Still not perfect but getting there.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

We went today back to Williston, with just Harvin and Slater. I did some hand-thrown marks with bumpies with Slater, getting him really revved up and he was flying into the water and fast. Had Kristin throw some singles and he did lovely. Attitude was great.
Did the same for Harvin, he did just fine, and is definitely ready for Junior. I entered all three guys in the MFGRC hunt tests, one at each level. 
Tomorrow I'm hopefully going to Whisper Creek (St. Augustine) and Tuesday to my friend Betsy's who has training ponds. I want to get Slater in the water as much as possible.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Not fair Anney... we don't have water... only ice. 

No field training plans for me this week. I am busy until Friday then I have an agility trial with my hubby's dog Quinn on the weekend. So I am just hoping for ample exercise for all this week.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

GoldenSail said:


> Today reminded me of something I should do, but really haven't. I need to teach my dog to run from my right side so I can use it to my advantage on different scenarios. I have done it a few times, but not seriously tried to train it. I've been...lazy in that regard. I'd also like to train her to heel from the right as well.


Yes yes yes! You definitely should. And I don't think it will be that hard to teach. Also, make sure she can "finish" on your right side. I make Riot finish on one side or the other when we are doing T or FTP to practice it, and I also send from either side. That helps integrate it instead of just having one more thing at the end of the day.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Modified T again today. I found the problem...she's anticipating. She *thinks* she knows where I am going to send her. By making her accountable and correcting her for cast refusals (the real kind here) she has substantially improved. Thank dog.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

This morning, Riot and I had a GREAT training session! We first worked on the old lining to the pile. He did beautifully! We didn't have any no-goes, and I only had to nick him once when he was kind of lollygagging on the way. We did about 8 sends I think. I was thinking of quitting sooner than that, but I wanted to make sure it wasn't just him "wanting" to do it. Didn't seem to be, because he kept going, with good drive. It's been so rainy here lately. We were soaked again today. I'm hoping that tomorrow will be a little nicer weather. 

We also worked on some more steadiness. He is doing much better. Very happy with our progress today. But then again, tomorrow could be horrible. That's what keeps us on our toes


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Marie you can send some of the rain down here. It is insane how little rain we have had. My little pond 5 minutes from my house that I did swim by in and most of Fisher's SH training is completely dried up 
Today was a GREAT day. I am feeling better about Slater and his water. Of course I think I was just putting too much pressure on him. I am glad we got some water force driven home but I need to make it fun for him. Today was lovely. My mom and I drove out to Whisper Creek with Harvin & Slater and set up marks in two different ponds. Great momentum and attitude with Slater and fantastic water entries even on the two blinds I set up for him. My mom handled Harvin and he brought the birds to hand for her which was great. Absolutely perfect and beautiful weather (78 and sunny) and we took them for a walk around this really big pond when we were done. Great day!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

can we ban people who mention nice weather???? :


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Temporary ban or permanent? LOL


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> can we ban people who mention nice weather???? :


But I mentioned bad weather, so it evens out!!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Modified T this morning and I am very pleased. She was nailing it at first, no cast refusals. I increased the difficulty by throwing to a pile and sending to another. She had some difficulty with this at first but we worked through it. I think a few more days of this and it will hopefully be solidified...I am considering re-visiting the t and challenging her likewise and then going back to our cold blinds.

Also began working on diversion birds. At our last group practice the most advanced dogs ran a triple with the first two birds being a hip pocket and the last throw a diversion (I believe this is a delayed triple). Some people chose to have the diversion thrown coming back from the first bird, others did it coming back from the second. I really wanted to do this...at least the diversion not necessarily the triple since she just started triples and nailed one the week before. 

I have gone back to build the groundwork for this by throwing a bumper and when she is returning throwing another. When she gives me the first I can send her for the second. Today she did awesome with that as well. I didn't have to say here anymore when I threw the second and she marked it. Actually she did flare away a little from the throw to show me that she knew she wasn't supposed to get it yet. I hope to this at real set-up soon.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Beautiful weather yesterday, Sunny about 64 degrees perfect for running pups. Got some marks and practice running by short guns and a layout blind. Popped on the fourth mark short of the mark. I think more from confusion. Repeated it later with another mark, no problem.
T work today.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Oh, and today it is sunny and 64 degrees. Another beautiful day in N. Texas.
:--big_grin:


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Radarsdad said:


> Oh, and today it is sunny and 64 degrees. Another beautiful day in N. Texas.
> :--big_grin:


 Ppplllllt! Drizzly and right at freezing here in SC Ontario. Just a cold, mudfest! We need it to drop a few degrees, freeze the fields so we can drive in them, and get a dusting of snow to clean it all up. Just the weirdest winter so far.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Ha ha it's even better here in CT! 51 degrees, sunny with a slight breeze. Too bad I'm at work.

Snow is almost melted and I'll be getting my training equipment back out I think - Oh, and I marked my calendar for the Field Training events that my club has scheduled that I don't have obedience or agility trials scheduled on 



Radarsdad said:


> Oh, and today it is sunny and 64 degrees. Another beautiful day in N. Texas.
> :--big_grin:


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Sail that is a great way to start diversions, hand thrown by yourself. Dogs seem to pick up on this quickly and really like diversions. Fisher loves them especially in water, you can see his little (big) ears perk up on the way back with a bird, like "Okay throw that other one NOW!" 

I think what you described with the diversion thrown as the dog is returning with the FIRST mark of a double is called an interrupted double, although I have heard people use that term when it a blind run between picking up the two marks. The diversion thrown on the way back from picking up the 2nd bird would just be a double with a diversion  
I think an interrupted triple would be if you threw two marks, picked up the first one, had the dog return, and before sending for the 2nd a 3rd mark is thrown, dog picks up that then returns and picks up the original memory bird. Similar idea, little different timing.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

only temporary, until it is 1000 degrees there with 5000% humidity, and it's 60 degrees and sunny here 



K9-Design said:


> Temporary ban or permanent? LOL


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

oh shut up.....



Radarsdad said:


> Oh, and today it is sunny and 64 degrees. Another beautiful day in N. Texas.
> :--big_grin:


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Heading out to big group training with Pro after 2 week layoff. I'll be looking at the setup with a new eye due to Barb's "missed mark" thread".


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

My training partner called me today and we headed out to train for the first time in a whole bunch of weeks. It was a balmy 28 degrees, no wind.
Well, that "what if the dog can't find the mark" thread was certainly good timing. We set up some singles, and the dogs had a really hard time. The only "good" thing is that my partner's extremely talented dog had a really hard time, too, so I know it wasn't just Tito.
We think the problem was the field that we went to. The cover was knee high (to a human), and fairly thick. There is still snow on the ground, and ice, although not a lot. The field was just laced with poop of all sorts---geese, deer, rabbits, and others I couldn't identify. To top it off, there weren't many features in the field for the dogs to mark off of, AND we were using bumpers which have very little smell.
So Tito had to be helped on the first mark, a 125 yard or so straight out mark. He was in the AOF but just couldn't seem to find it, despite a diligent hunt. My training partner helped him out. We made the next 3 marks a bit easier, and Tito found them but did need to hunt quite a while.
So after that we scented the bumpers heavily with duck scent, and things went much better. We ran a double first as a pair of singles and then as a double, and both dogs were quite successful. Seemed like a good time to quit.
Also, (thanks Anney) I went and bought some cheap camo material to make 4 "hidey blinds". We do need to work with those!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I think marking on snow can be really difficult. I have also been told that on snow you should use black bumpers for contrast to help the dogs. We've been lucky to have a very mild winter and almost no snow this year, but I remember last year how hard it was when the bumpers sunk into the snow--even if they were black.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Quick training session today at the "L pond." Only conundrum was the second we rolled up three horses came over and they were ALL OVER US. Grabbing crap out of the car, following us around, getting in Fisher's business when he was trying to pee, one even WENT IN THE WATER when Fisher was running a mark and I had to throw a bumper at it to get it to move! LOL Fisher was like -- weird diversion, but okay!
Anyways with Sophie & Fisher we did the two-down-the-shore drill from Carol Cassity's book, it went great, I did not have to handle the first time, and one handle the 2nd time (and no horse interference). Then we just did some singles long entries & exits with Slater, Harvin & Millie. Short and sweet! Beautiful weather 78 and sunny! Sorry guys!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well modified t was not going well yesterday so I called up Pete for advice. That's when he asked my why I was mixing left angle backs with left straight backs. I told him I was trying to make sure she was solid when I mixed them up. Well, apparently I am not supposed to do that--in fact he doesn't want me to do straight backs at all. 

While he teaches them, when he actually starts running a dog he is never going to stop them and give them a back. If he is just giving them a back, then they are already on line and he isn't going to stop them for being on the right track. Wow. Makes sense. So asked him about momentum casting and green dogs. He said he does use momentum casting on green dogs. Not entirely sure what his plans for me are. So I am to refine the modified t and then revisit him. I am absolutely not allowed to do any more straight backs when she is facing me. She can only go to the center pile when I send from my side. Period. Something for me to 'chew' over.

In other news I set-up a pattern blind going through a ditch at an angle to work on lining. She did great!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

we had to cancel today due to RAIN. Who'd have thought we'd get rained out in the Chicago area in January??? Blizzard, yes. Rain, no.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Looks like not many people are training today  

Riot got some marks today! My husband has one of his friend in town, so I conned them both into throwing for us. We did a pretty simple double, with a big clump of trees between the two marks so there wouldn't be a temptation for him to switch or not come back to me first. He did great! It was the first double he has done with throwers, so I was very happy. Then we just did a few longer singles, which he nailed, no problem. Then we did one pile which went fine also. 

Now Riot is sleeping soundly. Tomorrow we will probably do some more pile work. I'm thinking another few good days and I may add a side pile. We'll see what happens.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well, I know we need to work on C-O-M-E with Mr. Tag. On the bright side, he held the bumper real purty like the whole time he was being a snot..


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

DNL2448 said:


> Well, I know we need to work on C-O-M-E with Mr. Tag. On the bright side, he held the bumper real purty like the whole time he was being a snot..


HAHA! Well, one thing gets better and another thing falls apart. 

I was actually meaning to ask you how FF was going. Are you to walking fetch yet?


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

mlopez said:


> I was actually meaning to ask you how FF was going. Are you to walking fetch yet?


Well, with all the crazyness of job hunting, I haven't advanced a bunch. Still just working on fetch/hold different articles, and basic obedience. I have to read up on the next steps before I proceed, wanna do it right, ya'know.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Yesterday's setup was, blinds with singles. Blind, throwing station, blind, throwing station, blind, set up in a fan pattern from the line. The marks were at about 60 yards, the blinds 120,200,160 yards left to right. 
The blind to the left was the easiest and we ran it first. We ran it as a progression, first moved up and ran blind at half distance, next picked up the mark, and then reran the blind at full length. It was the easiest because the throwing station was 20 yards off the line to the blind, the mark was thrown away from the line, and the topography was flat. 
Next up the blind to the right, half blind, mark, full blind progression. This blind was tougher for us because, it was longer, the full blind was run under the arc of the mark, the line was about 7 yards off the throwing station, and last 10 yards were up a small hill with longer cover. 
3rd blind was 200 yards straight out in front of us, in between the two throwing stations, at ended in a dip followed by a run up a hill. No marks were thrown but we ran it at full length twice.

Here is what I learned:
Winter is influence by AOF from marks and I need to ready for that (late whistle). She did easily casted out of them. She remembered the mark from the 1st blind when we ran the 3rd blind and I didn't even think about that mark as a factor( or is tbat suction). Heck, that was 2 blinds ago. :doh:
Distance and cover makes Winter believe that she can be self employed. I need to watch for that head drop and whistle sit her (late whistle).
Winter, at a distance, will blow off multiple whistles and nicks. This was actually the first time I have seen this and I was not ready. :no:
I need to get a lot better at seeing factors and suction.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

methinks Winter needs to stop reading Tito's training threads


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

More marks today working on distance. Had to work with him today but they were long and technical.
Weather was 70 degrees and not a cloud in the sky


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Well I didn't train, but I did make 4 "hidey blinds" today. I went to Bass Pro Shop on Wednesday and bought 2 hunks of burlap camo material, each one 12 feet by 54 inches. I hacked them in half with pinking shears, and used plastic ties (which probably have a name) to tie them to horse fence posts. Total cost, $45 for all 4 blinds.
Cool!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Trained yesterday, blinds and singles, and then came back and ran the singles as a double. We also ran half blinds the first time we ran the blinds.
We are getting our act together lining up of blinds. Cueing with "dead bird" she will sit quietly and look out. Winter definitely locks in when I say"good". I'm still instructed not to mess with her too much on the line. If I do she will back out of her sit, but I can step forward and she will reset now. Still a work in progress.

It was 38 degrees but very sunny, a beautiful day in the PNW!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Marks today. Derby Double setups did very well as singles. Marking getting better, real close putting them together.

Cloudless sky, pretty cold, 38 degrees when we started. About 55 when we finished.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

No training this weekend as I am vending at a local dog show. Kinda slow today but beautiful weather. Slater got to be booth dog.
Well I have entered all three dogs (Fisher - Master, Slater - Senior, Harvin - Junior) at the MFGRC hunt test on Feb. 11/12. And of course, Slater has promptly fallen apart. 
Two months ago if you had asked me who is the most ready to run a test at their level it would have been Slater. Now it's flip flopped. Fisher is running like clockwork making his master setups look easy and Harvin is doing so wonderfully in training I can't believe it. Slater is a mess.
Now I will say on land things are groovy. We've been to two club training days in the past 3 weeks and he has absolutely nailed the land setups (one was a double with a short blind, other was a triple with flyer and a double blind -- he did awesome). Water is a WHOLE NUTHER STORY. He is NO-GOING left and right and I am at a loss as to what to do. Seriously I need professional intervention (either via a dog trainer or a shrink -- for me). He no-goes on memory birds and blinds in the water. Not every time, but enough to make it "AN ISSUE." This is NOT GOOD.
We will have one training session one day and things are wonderful and he is leaping in the water and the next day it's like he has no clue what I am asking him. I have done heel-burn-heel to the point that I don't want to do it any more : either I'm just making him more confused and paranoid or I'm not giving enough of a correction to change his mind and I'm afraid to crank up the heat. 
I'm hoping that it's a BIG WATER issue and not a WATER IN GENERAL issue as the only places he's done this are at the big ponds in Williston. They are big (80+ yard swims in open water) but we've trained so much there you'd think he'd be over it. When we've trained in shorter water things have been OK. SIGH
I'm meeting to train with Jim (marshmop) this week who usually has good insight into these things so maybe we can get our head on straight. 
Confessions of a frustrated dog trainer.........


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Take it for what it's worth. Which may not be much but I would try him on some big swim singles (short one would be over 100). back to back and get the gunner to pull him through it to give him some confidence on big water. I would be very careful about corrections in the water but you can't let him come back. Better to pull him to it than force. 
Ex. Taking Gunner to water Tues. Water has been scarce here until lately. First will be at least 200. Second at least 150 (he's already been that far several times at 8 mos.)


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Anney I am sorry your frustrated...

Once I learned that I didn't need to do straight backs anymore I went back to the modified t using just the angle backs and things went slick. The only thing I didn't like is she is flaring the line on the modified t, but otherwise doing great. I hope I can find time again to see Pete soon. 

It was also a warm 48 F when I went out the other day. Since water is a concern with the early hunt tests, and since Scout readily jumped in it and I was warm with my coat I decided to throw a few short bumpers for her. I focused on reminded her to heel and deliver the bumper before shaking off. I also threw a few bumpers at an angle.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Anney- sounds very similar to what Riot and I were working through a week ago. I definitely get the frustration. Hopefully you and Jim can brainstorm together and come up with some options. 

Today Riot and I started the Mini T. I lined him to the main pile, and then added out the side piles. He really wanted to go to the side piles, but we worked through it, mostly with attrition. No, here... No, here... Once I felt like he was just not trying and just wanted to go to the pile he wanted, so I gave him a nick on the here as he was coming back. That took care of the problem. Tomorrow we will be back at it. Moving right a long


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

oh Anney, I have no advice but boy do I feel your frustration. Been there. Over and over. Well not on water, but on other stuff. 
I think I know what the problem is. Was Slater there when you filled out the entries? I've found that somehow that causes their brain to drain out their ears, no matter what you are entering. I always entered obedience shows from another building so Tito wouldn't see me do it, ha ha.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> No training this weekend as I am vending at a local dog show. Kinda slow today but beautiful weather. Slater got to be booth dog.
> Well I have entered all three dogs (Fisher - Master, Slater - Senior, Harvin - Junior) at the MFGRC hunt test on Feb. 11/12. And of course, Slater has promptly fallen apart.
> Two months ago if you had asked me who is the most ready to run a test at their level it would have been Slater. Now it's flip flopped. Fisher is running like clockwork making his master setups look easy and Harvin is doing so wonderfully in training I can't believe it. Slater is a mess.
> Now I will say on land things are groovy. We've been to two club training days in the past 3 weeks and he has absolutely nailed the land setups (one was a double with a short blind, other was a triple with flyer and a double blind -- he did awesome). Water is a WHOLE NUTHER STORY. He is NO-GOING left and right and I am at a loss as to what to do. Seriously I need professional intervention (either via a dog trainer or a shrink -- for me). He no-goes on memory birds and blinds in the water. Not every time, but enough to make it "AN ISSUE." This is NOT GOOD.
> ...


Have you tried jealousy drills? I did this with Winter when we were having a similar issue a few years ago and a couple of friends have done it since. You need a friend with a really good steady dog (a Master dog works well), a means to throw a double, and of course you and your dog. Have the double thrown, send S for the go bird, receive, cue, and send for the memory. If S does not go IMMEDIATELY your friend send their dog for the memory bird and S has to watch someone else get his ducky. We repeated the drill over a 2 week period and he got the message--so long a S is desirous of that retrieve object it should flip that switch!

For the blinds, try simplifying with flagged blinds--make the destination obvious, just until he gets going again, I don't know if I would get into pressure with him if he is worrying. ANother thing you might try is putting a live biird at the end of the blind--you need to rig up a tether or tip-cage, but it is huge motivation for dogs that are worrying.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Thanks guys! Shelly Jim had a similar idea to stake Slater out while the other dogs run, I like your idea as well! 
I'm going today to one of my local ponds and setting up sort of a "swish drill" to run many blinds to the same location across the water, something simple to help us get back up on the horse.


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