# Training the "Out"



## xRoan (Jul 7, 2021)

Hi all!

Recently I've ran our Golden, Colt, in a couple of JH Tests and he's been doing phenomenal, with one exception...

He feels the need to tug on/play with the ducks, particularly after the water series. Two weeks ago we got DQ'd because he ended up tearing & eating part of the duck (feathers and all....) and this past weekend I had a very firm grip and had to get right up in his face with a firm "GIVE." Our two land runs Saturday & Sunday he had great handoffs, soft and easy. Two weeks ago the DQ was on a land series. We have one more upcoming test in September at our home club and the anxiety is getting real. They've all seen him run & know what he can do, I'm nervous that I won't be able to fix the issue before then & they're all going to think that I, being one of the very few junior handlers, don't know what I'm doing 😅

My current issue is that I can't replicate the behavior for the life of me. Bumpers, dockens, frozen & fresh ducks. With and without e-collar, with and without flat. I've tried exchanging the bumper/duck for a treat, but he then started dropping the duck anticipating a treat. I tried grabbing his upper jaw & "force fetching" as told by one of the more experienced members of the club, but he was still adamant that he needed to tug the bird at the test. IMO he's collar smart, but again, can't replicate the behavior lol.

Any ideas or advice? We will hopefully be able to do well enough to title in September, but it is definitely something that needs to be fixed, especially before moving on to Senior tests.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

xRoan said:


> Any ideas or advice?


Stop running any tests until you fix the problem. All the JH ribbons in the world are not worth reinforcing the problem. There have been some very talented field trial dogs that became washouts due to sticking/freezing on birds.


xRoan said:


> IMO he's collar smart


Of course he is, they all are. It would be a very dumb dog that couldn't figure out he wasn't wearing a collar.

This is one of the problems everyone prays they never have to deal with. I am thankful that I never have.
I have seen the problem multiple times. At an event it is almost always on the last bird of a series. Stress, possessiveness, excitement all can be causes. Never try to pull the bird out, you will lose. 

I am no expert on curing the problem. I have heard many ways of dealing with it, many involve some form of veiled intimidation that a judge may or may not recognize. Some say teaching a remote drop will help. Mike Lardy wrote an article on it. I have not read it and don't have a link but it shouldn't be too hard to find. 
I just heard about someone trying to deal with it by rewarding the dog with a piece of a hot dog for releasing a bird in training. In the yard the dog is being taught to hold and release a hot dog on command. Their plan is to wear gloves heavily scented with hot dogs when at trials. In theory the dog smells the hot dog and releases the bird in anticipation of the reward. Don't know if it has been proven in combat yet.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Anney? @K9-Design @DblTrblGolden2 ?


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## xRoan (Jul 7, 2021)

SRW said:


> Stop running any tests until you fix the problem. All the JH ribbons in the world are not worth reinforcing the problem. There have been some very talented field trial dogs that became washouts due to sticking/freezing on birds.
> 
> Of course he is, they all are. It would be a very dumb dog that couldn't figure out he wasn't wearing a collar.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your input! 

Our original issue was the hold, and now that he knows what hold means, he's having issues dropping it lol. I will definitely check out the article you referenced! Thank you for your theories as well!


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

It MIGHT be your nerves at a trial are causing you to act differently. Are you grabbing at the duck? If you tug first and then give the "Out" command, the tug may have already caused him to clamp down. At a test, wait for him to come to heel and calmly, without lunging or grabbing put your hand under the duck and say "Give" or Out, or whatever you say. If he doesn't give, I'd take a step to the side away from him, reheel and try again. 

If you think it's being caused by the excitement at a test, you need to try to ramp up the excitement in training. 

I also agree that you should not enter another test until you are more confident you have this issue solved.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

I would teach him an out while playing tug. But you have to know what you are doing or you can make the problem worse. There are two trainers that I love learning from (look up Michael Ellis and Dave Kroyer on youtube). I believe both have videos on how to play tug with your dog. 

I agree with SRW though that you should stop running tests until you have fixed it.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Yikey schnikeys you better go cancel your September entries pronto.
The worst possible thing you could do is enter him in more Junior tests.
I am no expert at this as thankfully I've never dealt with the problem. I would take this very seriously. 
I have to recommend Kevin Cheff (the retriever coach . com) and he will also do phone consults.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

I believe Lardy addresses remote drop in volume 2. I don’t have it so I’m not certain.





YBS Media







ybsmedia.com


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

Has your pup been force fetched? As you know part of that training is to condition the put to fetch and release on command. If he has been through FF, then go back to the table. If not do it with him or have someone do it for you....it may help resolve this issue...


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## xRoan (Jul 7, 2021)

He has been Force Fetched. The issue is that he ONLY does this at tests. I've done everything in my power to train it, ten minutes a day four or five times a day, and he "outs" perfectly every single time regardless of what I put in his mouth. It's only at the new locations which it happens. I can't exactly bring a dead duck into Hobby Lobby/Lowes/Ace/Barnes & Nobel to practice outs in high-distraction/stress situations lol. I will definitely look into all of the resources provided! I will also get in contact with some of the pros that run Masters at our club to see what they have to say.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

xRoan said:


> The issue is that he ONLY does this at tests.


True of many issues. 
Hands on help from a pro or experienced amateur that has SUCCESSFULLY dealt with freezing before may be your best bet. 
Beware of self proclaimed experts, find someone who has trained and titled FC and AFC retrievers.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Sorry, I just saw I was tagged in this post. I have never had this problem. (I’m knocking on wood). I agree with everyone else, no more tests until it’s fixed. If they get away with bad behavior at a test you are just creating a much bigger problem.

I would attend several training days with large groups before I put him back in a test. You can fix it in training, but at a test your stuck. I am fortunate that I have a once a week training group with a Pro. Maybe you could find one? It’s been a huge help to me.

Best of luck! Hunt training never gets boring 🙃


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## xRoan (Jul 7, 2021)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> Sorry, I just saw I was tagged in this post. I have never had this problem. (I’m knocking on wood). I agree with everyone else, no more tests until it’s fixed. If they get away with bad behavior at a test you are just creating a much bigger problem.
> 
> I would attend several training days with large groups before I put him back in a test. You can fix it in training, but at a test your stuck. I am fortunate that I have a once a week training group with a Pro. Maybe you could find one? It’s been a huge help to me.
> 
> Best of luck! Hunt training never gets boring 🙃


We spent the entire summer training with a large group, once a week at minimum, and just completed a duck hunt/potluck. Tossed ducks, shot them, dogs retrieved live fliers. He was perfect, even running doubles with other dogs. We've got another large group pheasant hunt in three weeks, with all nine dogs running at the same/similar times, which will at least be a training opportunity. It's just frustrating because nobody seems to know how to train it out of him and it's the first dog I've ever trained to do anything other than sit. 😅 I will for sure get in contact with some of the pros running at the Master in September, though, and hopefully we can get everything worked out!


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

In the seventh series of this years NARC I watched a dog complete the series, almost. There was an honor, on the way to the honor mat the dog grabbed a bird from the rack, freeze on it and get DQ'd.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

I watched a dog at a SH test go out for a live flyer and eat the bird. The pro collected him before the judges even had time. I saw the same dog run a clean SH for his title two months later. It can be fixed, I just don’t know how. You need a pro. 

Keep in mind that sometimes test birds, other then live flyers, are different for a young dog. Cruz dropped a bird at a test and I had to give a stern “fetch” to get him to pick it back up. He doesn’t drop birds. Turns out the birds at that test were gassed. He’d never had that. I brought two home from the test to work with that week. This is a dog I would have thought a 6 year old could run through JH.

Tests are also higher stress for handler and dog. You can fix it. You just need someone that’s been through it. Call a Pro near you that you like and ask. Most I’ve found are willing to help. I wouldn’t let it go a day longer then I had too.


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## xRoan (Jul 7, 2021)

SRW said:


> In the seventh series of this years NARC I watched a dog complete the series, almost. There was an honor, on the way to the honor mat the dog grabbed a bird from the rack, freeze on it and get DQ'd.


 Yikes! Colt is people friendly and liked to try to steal from the blinds after saying hi. I was worried I’d have to correct it w a shock or etc but it was more a matter of making sure he marked well enough to go straight to the duck.


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## xRoan (Jul 7, 2021)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> I watched a dog at a SH test go out for a live flyer and eat the bird. The pro collected him before the judges even had time. I saw the same dog run a clean SH for his title two months later. It can be fixed, I just don’t know how. You need a pro.
> 
> Keep in mind that sometimes test birds, other then live flyers, are different for a young dog. Cruz dropped a bird at a test and I had to give a stern “fetch” to get him to pick it back up. He doesn’t drop birds. Turns out the birds at that test were gassed. He’d never had that. I brought two home from the test to work with that week. This is a dog I would have thought a 6 year old could run through JH.
> 
> Tests are also higher stress for handler and dog. You can fix it. You just need someone that’s been through it. Call a Pro near you that you like and ask. Most I’ve found are willing to help. I wouldn’t let it go a day longer then I had too.


I appreciate it! I don’t know the pros very well yet but was planning on seeing if someone would be willing to let me shadow them for a summer anyway. I think it would be a ton of fun & I could help do kennels and manage dogs at tests for them. That’s obviously further in the future than what I’m looking for but I will definitely get in touch with them!

I guess I didn’t even think about the way the birds might’ve been dispatched. There’s probably a difference in what they feed them vs. what we feed the ones at our club as well… Thank you for the advice & encouragement!


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

xRoan said:


> Yikes! Colt is people friendly and liked to try to steal from the blinds after saying hi. I was worried I’d have to correct it w a shock or etc but it was more a matter of making sure he marked well enough to go straight to the duck.


Does Colt return to you at heel, sit, and then you take the duck or are you taking the duck with him in front of you?


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## Edward Lee Nelson (Jan 2, 2017)

You really need to take peoples advice and see a pro, not just any pro, a pro who has been around for years and has the experience. I would seek out a FT pro. I have seen the situation fixed on dogs. A old time pro (RIP) JJ Sweezey, the only pro to qualify dogs for the National in six different decades would teach the dog if he let go of the bird the dog would get a tennis ball. JJ would wait until he got way behind the judges and toss it up for the dog. The dog would be jumping up and down for the ball after the 3rd/4th bird. You may not get away with it as it could be viewed as a training aide but not many judges would correct JJ.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Lee I sorta do the same thing for honoring...they learn their bumper is at the car and fun throws are coming after they honor. They drag me to the car off the honor spot


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## xRoan (Jul 7, 2021)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> Does Colt return to you at heel, sit, and then you take the duck or are you taking the duck with him in front of you?


I’ve tried both ways. It’s a 50/50 chance regardless of what I do.


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## xRoan (Jul 7, 2021)

Edward Lee Nelson said:


> You really need to take peoples advice and see a pro, not just any pro, a pro who has been around for years and has the experience. I would seek out a FT pro. I have seen the situation fixed on dogs. A old time pro (RIP) JJ Sweezey, the only pro to qualify dogs for the National in six different decades would teach the dog if he let go of the bird the dog would get a tennis ball. JJ would wait until he got way behind the judges and toss it up for the dog. The dog would be jumping up and down for the ball after the 3rd/4th bird. You may not get away with it as it could be viewed as a training aide but not many judges would correct JJ.





K9-Design said:


> Lee I sorta do the same thing for honoring...they learn their bumper is at the car and fun throws are coming after they honor. They drag me to the car off the honor spot


This past test I spent a couple of minutes doing some heelwork & ob before we got to the line and it seemed to help, but it still wasn’t perfect.

I have no intention of running FTs, only HTs and possibly some UKC stuff, would that make a difference in which pro I should contact?


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## Edward Lee Nelson (Jan 2, 2017)

XRoan,
The only reason I mentioned a successful FT pro is that they have probably been around for a while. The FT circuit is extremely tough and usually the pro that makes it is pretty good. This isnt talking away anything from a HT pro,just my opinion. The basics are the same for a HT or a FT dog. These type of issues will pop up with either. Good luck!


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## xRoan (Jul 7, 2021)

Edward Lee Nelson said:


> XRoan,
> The only reason I mentioned a successful FT pro is that they have probably been around for a while. The FT circuit is extremely tough and usually the pro that makes it is pretty good. This isnt talking away anything from a HT pro,just my opinion. The basics are the same for a HT or a FT dog. These type of issues will pop up with either. Good luck!


For sure! I appreciate the insight. I’ve only been training since May so I am definitely still learning about everything!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hi xRoan, just reading between the lines here, I think your dog is probably very enthusiastic (and it sounds like you are too) but if you've only been training since May and it's only August and you're already running tests, and this is your first dog to train...honey, you're moving to fast!!! LOL
My guess is you've skipped a million steps and that your dog is NOT even a little bit solid on basic obedience or force fetch. He's learned tests mean one thing : you can lose your mind and do whatever the hell you want and nothing happens except MORE BIRDS. 
You really, really should find a pro, hold back on pressing that "enter" button on Entry Express, and learn to train a dog. YOUR DOG is telling you that you're going about things the wrong way. Time to re-evaluate and go back and train him right.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Ugh, I know that feeling. You reach for the bird and he head ducks and you hear a crunch. Riot loves to keep his birds. When going through FF we worked mainly on drop, not on hold or fetch. He was possessive (with a head duck) of everything from the day he came home from the breeder. I think it's his personality. I continue to work on let him come back into heal and sit and hold the bird (or bumper). I lightly pet the top of his head until I feel the muscles in his skull relax, then I take the bird. I hate waiting, but if I go to fast, crunch and lock on that bird. I hate the idea of kicking him to get the bird, but sometimes he's out of his mind and that's all you can do. So I've backed up to just relaxing and letting him calm down. As soon as I get stressed or start moving fast, bam we're back into freeze on that bird. We haven't run a test or trial in a couple of years now for a lot of different reasons. But crunching was one of them. The super solid lock down crunch didn't happen until we ran a couple of quals when he was 2. Prior to that he was ok but not quick to give up his birds. I blame my anxiety on a lot of it, combined with a high roller intense dog, and you end up with crunch and freeze. I guess down the leash it goes from handler to dog.

I'm not a pro and not very experienced, so I'm absolutely not the person to ask how to fix it. But I can tell you what it's like to be embarrassed by a locked on dog at the line. The one thing I can say is slow way down on everything. 

Remote drop was practiced by Millions of Peaches on this forum, I hope MOP can chime in on how she trained remote drop. I tried it, but I'm not the handler that MOP is, so I didn't get very far.


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