# First training class....



## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

I'm not liking your trainer. I've been to 2 weeks of obedience/training class and well, not much of what your trainer is telling you is gelling with what my behaviorist is telling us. 

For example, your trainer is suggesting negative methods like spraying bitter apple towards your dog. What I've learned that I did not appreciate enough is that treat, treat, treat the behavior you want. For example, if your dog is sitting beside you calmly on his leash then give him treats. Do not give him treats when he is not behaving the way you want him to, and ignore him until he stops the bad behavior, then treat him when he is doing something you want him to do. Treat good behavior often when outside walking nicely, not barking, or during training sessions. This will get the dog to focus on you as well when you are in a place with more distractions. She says that what you need to teach your dog most is self control.
The barking thing - the behaviorist said that you should distract your dog from the barking. She said that a dog that is sniffing can't bark. So when he's barking, hold the treat down where he can smell it and when he's stopped barking for a bit, let him have it. If he's quiet for a few seconds, treat him over and over increasing the amount of time between as you can. 
The walking - and let me tell you, we've stuggled with this the most - I am so happy to say that her advice on this front has been working WONDERS. Again, treat treat treat. Hold the leash end in your one hand resting on your palm, use your thumb to hold it. You also have to manage to use that hand for treats. Use your other hand to hold the leash in a place where your dog still has maybe 2 feet more to the collar. Keep the leash loose when you do this exercise- your dog has to feel like he is making the choice to walk next to you. At first, take a step with the leg closest to your dog (and always start with that leg) and walk at a pace that you can keep your dogs attention: start slow. With your hand holding the leash end, get a treat and start walking your dog holding the treat in front of his nose. Let him have it when he's walking close like he should. Keep walking and treating - make sure he's walking when you are treating him, not when he's stopping. You will have to hunch over a bit to reach the right place to put the treat and it does take time and practice for your dog. Don't forget to use a command when you start like heel. Let me tell you, we've been doing this for 2 weeks and he can heel (with less treats) in the house and in our yard. That is HUGE. Also, treating on walks is helping as well. If your dog pulls, stop and wait a bit. I personally wait for Max to focus his attention on me before I start again. When he pulls. Stop. Trust me, don't walk 2 dogs that don't walk well together - you are only exasperating the problem. For a while, it would be good to walk them apart so you can focus on good manners with each of them and each dog is focused on you and not being distracted with each other.

I have learned a lot from our behaviorist and the things I am telling you are the methods she's shown us and they are WORKING. It takes a lot of work and committment from you too but it's so worth it. As I said, I really don't like a number of things your trainer is telling you. After spending time with the woman running our class, it seems to me that your trainer doesn't know nearly as much as she does.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

momtoMax said:


> After spending time with the woman running our class, it seems to me that your trainer doesn't know nearly as much as she does.


I don't see how you can judge that just by what we've read in the post. Just because they have some different methods for training doesn't mean one way is _better_ than the other way. Everything I read sounds like perfectly legitimate training, and good sound advice.

You can also use some diluted vinegar in a spray bottle to stop the barking. Same concept, cheaper solution.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> I don't see how you can judge that just by what we've read in the post. Just because they have some different methods for training doesn't mean one way is _better_ than the other way. Everything I read sounds like perfectly legitimate training, and good sound advice.
> 
> You can also use some diluted vinegar in a spray bottle to stop the barking. Same concept, cheaper solution.


Why do something like spray bitter apple into the face of your dog when you can change the behavior in a positive way for all parties involved? I'm sorry but I'm all gung ho about this positive training thing. I would never go back to doing something negative to train my dog ever again. The OP asked for opinions, and that was mine. I love what I've learned and we've tried so much - it's so amazing to have something working as well as it is and in a positive way. I was thinking of resorting to gentle leader but so far, this seems to be really working so we shouldn't need to. I'd rather have Max learn to control himself rather than be controlled by a device. I think it will take longer but it will be better in the long run. 

and sure you can spray vinegar solution into your dogs mouth - way to bond, get it into the dogs poor eyes - or you can use a positive training method and use treats to distract your dog from the behavior and reward your dog when the behavior stops. I don't know....hmm, spray something awful in Max's mouth/get it in his eyes or use treats to distract him and teach him not to bark. Tough call. Not for me!!!!


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

I see both sides to this coin...and I do appreciate all input. The problem with barking and giving treats for not barking....Withholding treat that he knows is there is exactly something that would excite him and make him bark more. Now as far as the walking goes, he (and she) usually do NOT bark on walks, just pulls. No bitter apple would be used during walks. I could never walk them together. They always get walked separately. The only suggestion during walk is to purchase the gentle leader instead of harnesses and we start from there. She feels this will be enough to control them during walks. I do believe in positive re-inforcement, which we use througout the session, but I do have to find a better motivator. I am hoping that the chicken will do the trick. 

Again, the only time barking is really an issue is when company first comes over, and the excitement of the first meet and greet, along with jealousy of his sister getting attention and not him from company. During this time, I doubt very much that a treat would be more of a motivator than the company itself. They both arent chow hounds, especially Lucy (sooo finicky), and to be quite honest, he is extememely difficult to keep focused (partly the teenage phaze I hope). Also, the shuushhing itself, to get him to stop, then reinforce with a treat, is attention, which would mean his barking has suceeded in getting exactly what he wants...attention. If indeed I give the treat before any barking...I would satiate him of the treats before any barking begins. In this way...I'm not too sure he would understand what the treat is for...how do I convey quiet=treat, unless he barks first, then stays quiet and gets a treat. The only way he would realize to be quiet for treat is for me to shuussh him...again giving attention, then give a treat for quiet. I'm sorry if this post is confusing....


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

well I'm glad you've become an expert at what it going to work best for you after your second week of class. Best of luck to you with that.

I tend to go more the route of whatever works for each dog in each situation. I rarely say "I will never..." But for those who are able to stick  totally to one method successfully, that's great!


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

The thing that stuck out at me was the recall (calling the dog, asking for a sit, pausing, and then feeding). This is very atypical for a first night first level class and asking for a lot for one piece of reinforcement. 

I would never again spray something in a dog's face. I did that for a while with my own per the advice of a trainer.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Yeah...I agree with it being too much for a first class RedDogs. I am not too sure how I feel about this trainer yet, but will complete the 4 weeks, and decide after that. I have decreased my request for Jax...and made it just come here for the treat, as per her advice, but it made me feel like Jax was just...well...not so smart...to be polite. Especially since Lucy got it so quickly. Can I ask you why you would never spray in the face? did something negative end up happening? Just curious...as I really do want all sides to this.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Jax's Mom said:


> . I have decreased my request for Jax...and made it just come here for the treat, as per her advice, but it made me feel like Jax was just...well...not so smart...to be polite.


Don't feel bad, that's how most training is done....teach all the pieces before you put it together. There's some more advanced skills that I might teach in pieces for over a year before I put them together!


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I'm glad you're 'breaking down' the exercise. It could be Jax is more distracted in that type of environment and needs things adjusted more. There will be some things he picks up on faster!

With MY dog who had water/vinegar/bitter apple sprayed in his face and/our poured in his mouth (8+ years ago, per the instructor we were taking classes with): 1) It did not decrease his anxiety. He started to display stress in other ways. 2) Punishment can create frustration and aggression, which can sometimes be seen if the punishment is not enough to inhibit the behavior. My dog got pretty scary. 3) He did not know how to act in that setting or how to get what he wanted, so our underlying problem was not resolved and his anxiety increased. 4) He sometimes did stop IF he saw the bottle. The fact he didn't stop without it.... the punishment was not all that effective at changing the behavior.

Since then, I've gained a lot of experience and absolutely do not recommend this. Some dogs get very aggressive over it (they don't like it but don't know how to make the crazy people stop). And the underlying emotions are not changed/addressed. 

But...it works well with many people...I'm not saying it can't/doesn't work. I just cannot safely recommend this to clients, let alone the ethical considerations for the dogs.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the gentle leader. It just seems that for us, we've gone through the easy walk harness that never fit right to the martingale collar which is losing it's affectiveness at conveying messages, gentle leader was next on my list. Learning how to teach the dog to do what I want him to do without using any of these things though is great for me since I've had so little success.

As for the barking bit, does he do this outside as well in certain situations? could you put in him a place where he will want to bark and you can treat him for sitting quietly? As for inside, if you know that company is coming, and he starts barking, have treats on you, distract him from the barking and give him a treat when he's good. He will at some point understand that he gets treats when people come in and he isn't barking. With enough time, he just won't have that behavior anymore even without the treats. The behaviorist also said that the stay command is really good to teach your dog not to jump on/perhaps bark at people visiting but it takes a while to teach a reliable stay. That is something else that is important for us to work on.

Your boy dog and my Max sound like they have the same problem - can't control themselves when they get excited. All I can tell you is that treating often in a room filled with 4 other dogs and their owners has changed my insane pulling barking boy into a dog that sits, focuses on me, rarely barks, and doesn't pull in 2 weeks. I am telling you from one dog owner to another, this is really working wonders for my crazy boy. 

We are going to Knoebels on Sunday and I have to remember to bring treats and really keep up with the training we've been doing - stopping when he pulls, treating good behavior, working on our heel. I think that will be very hard for him with all the stimuli and his insanity but I have high hopes that in time, just as he's doing so much better in the class situation, he will learn to focus and control himself in other crowded situations in time.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Looks like I killed this thread, sorry. Just stopping in to check in how it is going with your dogs? Interested to hear about your progress and what techniques you have been using? Have you had your next class yet? Hoping everything is going great!!!


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Unfortunately, Jax's panosteitis started acting up 2 days ago, so his limp is back. Been trying to get that better, resting him, giving him the prevacox, and hoping for the best beofre our next session on Wednesday. We managed to get 3 more sessions outside with the "come here" and he is slowly getting the come here then sit, and has the come here down pat...as long as there are no distractions. Last time we took him in the backyard, we tried giving him little bits of roast beef (what we had made that day), but he was sooo interested in the neighbor kids running back and forth, training was awful. They were both VERY selective to come here. We have been working on come here when calling in from the front yard, and that has been better, but not perfect. We are defintely a work in progress. I am hoping for some improvement on his leg, or we will miss this weeks session. Trainer did say we could make it up either in another session, or 2 longer sessions. Waiting til Wednesday to see what happens. Today his limp is slightly better so we are still holding onto some hope for making the wed session. We decided on picking up the the gentle leader rather than shipping it, since it does take time, just have to get to the store. Unfortunately...the store that carries it isnt close either. SIGH....everything seems to be so difficult lately.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

I live in the middle of a slew of tiny towns with not much in them so I know what a pain it can be getting specialty items. Sorry to hear Jax isn't feeling the best. I hope that he feels well enough to make the training! I know how excited I was as well to be able to do obedience classes!!
The come is the most important part of that command - good to see that he's doing it inside. I learned though that the you calling him outside and him ignoring you bit is very damaging to training this behavior well. The woman who ran our classes suggested we get a 20 foot lead and let the dogs out to sniff and do whatever in our yards - since it's such a long leash, they feel like they are free. Each time you say, so and so, Come. if the dog wasn't coming, you were to reel the dog in, say, good come and give the dog a treat. She also said that it's super important to say the command only one time. She said that if we let the dog ignore an important command like that, we are teaching it that it can ignore us. I know that's a lot harder said than done, as I called my Max several times out at a creek and he totally blew me off. I think what she means is more like, at home, in the yard, etc. 

Hope you have class today, have fun!!


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

It's funny, because I live right next to Manhattan, so you would think finding a good stroe filled with a variety of products would be easy...but not so. They have plenty of petlands around here, none of which have a good selection of either food or toys. Just your staple products, and of course, the not so good for you rawhides and whatnot. I need to find a petco, which means I have to travel into Long Island, not far, but at the hour I do it, probably full of rush hour traffic. 

On a positive note, Jax seems a bit better today, but not well enough for class. I'm hoping another 36 hours will show more improvement needed. I think the long lead is a good idea. I also think that every time I get ignored, it teaches him (and her) that ignoring is a good option. I think even the BEST of treats sometimes isnt enough to get their attention when the distraction is so interesting (kids playing, dogs walking by). I'll post tomorrow either after class or when I realize class isnt an option for this week.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

How is Jax doing today? You know what I just realized. Max and Jax. Hmm. Oddly the similarity in their names did not come to me earlier. I hope he is feeling much better today!!

How is it to have a big dog in Manhattan? Max is a country (kind of) dog himself and I wonder how people in big cities like New York do with big dogs and so much stuff everywhere.

We've been working on our stay. He falters sometimes but overall he is doing pretty well!! I can go across the room from him and he'll stay 80% of the time. I know though if someone knocked on the door and I told him to stay, he'd completely blow me off and that is the most important bit of teaching Max to stay - so he doesn't jump on and horrify our guests. 

Hoping training is giong well for your with your two dogs!! Have a great day!!!


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Thanks for thinking of Jax! Although he is getting better with the meds, it is alittle slow going, and he is still showing a slight limp. We didn't want to exacerbate the problem by taking him to training, so opted to wait til next week. The trainer did say she would make up the time, so I wasn't too worried. (we are the only ones in the class, so it was easy for her to do). 

We actually live in Queens, a suburb in on the western end of Long Island, very close to Manhattan, a short bridge ride away. So we do have a house with 7 rooms, 2 floors that we use, 1 we rent. We have a front yard which is probably small for your standards (24' by 30' ??) I'm guessing....and backyard about 3 x that size. It is a row house block though, so houses are right next to each other. Needless to say, people, noisy kids, and cars are an all the time thing. Garbage trucks, airplanes, all sorts of noisy stuff. Jax does really well with these things, although he LOVES to say hi to passer bys. Traffic and noises dont affect him. Lucy on the other hand, as friendly as she is with people, is alittle more skittish of noises and things like fans in the house, ironing boards, skateboards outside etc. She is getting MUCH better, but is still "cautious". When on the lead, and out of the proximitiy of "home" she is much more skittish around noises and therefore scary on a loose collar, which is one reason why I am always buying all sorts of harnesses and collars. She got away from me once and it scared the bejesus out of me!! 
Taking this break in training is really frustrating, but I know just temporary. I wish I would have waited another month to make sure the panosteitis was really not an issue anymore. I will post again once training resumes.


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