# almost really, really bad situation



## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Scary situation. There is a young petite woman in my neighborhood that walks an enourmous pitbull. Scares the you know what out of me. I always look ahead when I walk Murph because I know she couldn't possibly control him.
Regarding dog parks......I gave it up!


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Yes, that could have been a disaster...glad it wasn't. SO GLAD!!!

I think maybe just reorganize how you handle the kids and what activities you choose. It sounds like Tucker can go to the dog park by himself and not be a problem for you. Plus it's easier to handle one dog on the leash. Tucker needs to enjoy the park and the other dogs with a mom who doesn't have to be on the edge all the time. Down time for both of you.

Bella probably shouldn't go to the park at all. It will be harder to socialize her but you will have the opportunity to choose her playmates carefully. 

Sometimes, as much as we want something to work it just doesn't. Her personality will probably always limited the activities she can do.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Penny's Mom said:


> Yes, that could have been a disaster...glad it wasn't. SO GLAD!!!
> 
> I think maybe just reorganize how you handle the kids and what activities you choose. It sounds like Tucker can go to the dog park by himself and not be a problem for you. Plus it's easier to handle one dog on the leash. Tucker needs to enjoy the park and the other dogs with a mom who doesn't have to be on the edge all the time. Down time for both of you.
> 
> ...


Yes, and yet... the park normally sits empty at that time of day. It wears them both out and gives them a chance to run hard. It is very stressful for me though, you are right about that. I may try putting choke chains on them both. Perhaps they'd be easier to manage like that. I could just leave Bella at home, but what kind of life is that for her? That's how she spent the first half of it and it hurt her. Arggh. I'm so bummed.


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

Hey there.
I am relieved nothing bad happened.
Dog fights stink.
I agree with Penny's mom above.
Having to divide up time is certainly harder for you, doing one thing with one day and ten the other, but the alternative is situation you had today.
My Homer was a big fella, 100 pounds. He was gentle as a giant and sweet to everyone (except squirrels!!) but he was not great on lead, as he and I hiked off lead 98% of the time and I never focused on leash manners with him (my bad). When he would see another pup, or person, he would pull, but did listen if I put him in down stay. But it is very hard to control a 100 pound dog when they go like that. I cant imagine two Goldens.
My breeder has a lovely older Golden, who was very well socialized, and well mannered. Poor girl was attacked twice as a younger dog, and injured. Afterwards she became very dog reactive.
My breeder worked hard with a behaviorist to get her pup back to being able to socialize with others. Now, her pup does agility and field trials. She doesn't light the world on fire with her socializing, but can be brought to shows and be around other dogs, and not react negatively. 
So, I think working with a good behaviorist/trainer who specializes in this type of dysfunction can be helpful, maybe even life altering for your Bella. Until then, agree with Penny's mom, to limit her outings to less stressful situations, for both of you. It will get to a point, if not already, where the anxiety you feel about other dogs coming near, will flow right down that leash into Bella's head. And once they feel your anxiety, they will be on anxious alert themselves. So, training is not only for her, but for you.
Very hard to control your own anxiety in that type situation.
Good luck!  Robin


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

OutWest said:


> Yes, and yet... the park normally sits empty at that time of day. It wears them both out and gives them a chance to run hard. It is very stressful for me though, you are right about that. I may try putting choke chains on them both. Perhaps they'd be easier to manage like that. I could just leave Bella at home, but what kind of life is that for her? That's how she spent the first half of it and it hurt her. Arggh. I'm so bummed.


I would imagine then, you do not have an area, other than dog park, to run the dogs? Once in awhile I used to bring Homer to a tennis court. It was never used, kinda run down, but he used to have a ball there, chasing balls.
Don't be bummed. Just brainstorm and try to find places or things u can do with Bella and/or both your pups that will not put u in situation like you were today.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I understand totally!!! It would break my heart to if I had to leave one home all the time. 

A collar with more control could be the answer. Definitely give it a try in a controlled setting, with each dog separately at first. 

I hope you find a way thru this...you're right: Bella deserves better than what she got before she had you.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Thanks, Oliversmom. I did mean each dog going to the park but on alternate days so she could relax with one and teach/train with the other.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Dogs that are potentially dog aggressive shouldn't be at the dog park. Period. That goes for unsocialized goldens and huge pitbulls. If the same scenario happens again and you let go of your dogs, you could end up with a couple of dead goldens. Is that worth the dog park? Find another activity. Your dogs won't know what they're missing.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

olliversmom said:


> I would imagine then, you do not have an area, other than dog park, to run the dogs? Once in awhile I used to bring Homer to a tennis court. It was never used, kinda run down, but he used to have a ball there, chasing balls.
> Don't be bummed. Just brainstorm and try to find places or things u can do with Bella and/or both your pups that will not put u in situation like you were today.


I have a decent back yard--not huge, but they can run in circles around it. I just think it's so limiting to them to have that be their whole universe. They get SOOOOO excited when I grab the leases and they know they are going somewhere.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Penny's Mom said:


> Thanks, Oliversmom. I did mean each dog going to the park but on alternate days so she could relax with one and teach/train with the other.


Well perhaps that's what I should do... I did leave Tess home today (and I'm really glad I did) so that I could focus on the big dogs.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I think you will all get more enjoyment out of that. It's so hard to manage when you are outnumbered.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Penny's Mom said:


> I think you will all get more enjoyment out of that. It's so hard to manage when you are outnumbered.


That's for sure... I just felt so bad this morning. I couldn't control them and therefore I couldn't protect them. And Bella started it, the PB was attacked--he didn't start anything at all, he was just defending himself.


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## Lucylulu (Aug 4, 2013)

Why not put halti leaders on them? That seems like an easy fix. That's a humane way to limit their ability to pull if they start freaking out.


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

Penny's Mom said:


> Thanks, Oliversmom. I did mean each dog going to the park but on alternate days so she could relax with one and teach/train with the other.


Yes, me too!
I can't imagine leaving poor Bella home all the time.
Its not her fault she had a lousy childhood.
One pulling dog is manageable, cause you have two hands.

Alternating gets them both out +
Cuts donw on the anxiety for mom+
But they cant run together -
And very time consuming -


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

Dogs really do like to have a change of scenery.
We had numerous little dogs off lead in our old neighborhood, so most times I would drive about 2 miles to the woods, to paths no one ever went on and Homer and I would get lost on hikes. He had 100% recall tho.
The only issue I ever had was the meet up with the bear 
(I was like one of those stupid people u see in the horror flicks, running blindly thru the woods in terror.)


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Didn't stand your ground and yell: Bad Bear...you skeedaddle! lololol


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

Penny's Mom said:


> Didn't stand your ground and yell: Bad Bear...you skeedaddle! lololol


Lol. Heck no!
I read all the bear/outdoor survival tips too.
Like lie as if dead on the ground.
I dunno.
When big mama black bear growls and your dearest friend in the world is a foot from said mama, instinct is: to heck with the experts, RUUUUNNNNN!


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## RockyandMe (Oct 7, 2013)

I have to say i was pretty apprehensive at first about using the spike collar for Rocky and only switched to it when he was about 4 months old he started lunging at other dogs not to attack but because he wants to play with every dog in the world and doesn't care if the other one would rip him apart. Anyway I was at the aspca meet the breeds show in NY and I saw a couple of breeder and show parents using the collar and inquired about it and they assured me it was actually safer for the dog because it put stress all around the neck instead of just one point which could cause damage to a dogs neck. Anyway I asked my trainer about them and he said it was a very good training tool because it has an immediate response from the animal and he should me how to use it. I am telling you if you have trouble controlling your dog around other dogs when leashed you should try it because you only need a slight tug on it and a command and my guy will completely regain his composer and sit until I release him even if the other dog is going nuts. You will be able to see him wanting to go but you will have complete control and will get rid of the pulling completely which is important.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I have reservations about the pronged collar because Our Penny was a puller. Even with the prong on. And I'm sure it did hurt because she started to avoid having me put it on her. 

We also tried the halti and she spent the entire walk rubbing the side of her face on the grass or side walk trying to scrape it off. When she wasn't doing that, it did work. 

In this case, I think there may not be any shortcuts to Outwest wants to achieve...which is to solve the reactive problem at its roots.


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## 2dogsandagrrl (Nov 16, 2010)

I have 2 dogs (golden and blue heeler X) and could never take my blue heeler to a dog park even on a leash...for 11 years I drove out of town where no one would be so that both dogs could run free and be together. Even at that it was always stressful wondering if any type of wild animal (skunk, rabbit, deer etc) would be around for the heeler to chase or even worse someone with a dog showed up. Now that she is 13 I've been walking in town for the last 2 years seperatly with each dog 3 times a day. I can take my golden to the park behind the house and he can be off leash and not bother anyone. I don't walk them together but you have to do what you have to do when you have a reactive dog.


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## Sarah~ (Sep 16, 2013)

K9-Design said:


> Dogs that are potentially dog aggressive shouldn't be at the dog park. Period. That goes for unsocialized goldens and huge pitbulls. If the same scenario happens again and you let go of your dogs, you could end up with a couple of dead goldens. Is that worth the dog park? Find another activity. Your dogs won't know what they're missing.


Totally agree with this, I am in the same boat as the op with my GSD, I can't take him to any kind of park until we get his issues under control.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

I apologize this is so long!


I have a dog-reactive/fear-reactive Golden as well and I made a promise to myself and to him that I wouldn't let it stop us from doing anything that normal dogs would do. I made a commitment to give him the best 10+ crossfing) years of his life when we brought him home and that's what I intend to do. I honestly think think it all comes down to practicing good management. I have different types of collars and harnesses, different length leashes, check cords, reinforcers, etc that I can use to handle most situations. My boy loves being outside and running free more than anything, I'm not going to let the anxieties and fears instilled in him from poor breeding and poor early socialization hold him back. To allow him to enjoy life to the fullest he has to wear a special harness when we go for walks. Its the one that wraps around their chest and under their belly. When he pulls it puts pressure on his front legs which causes him to stop almost immediately. The leash clips to both the harness and the collar. It has been a huge help when he gets over threshold and is lunging at other dogs. On his regular collar I've been dragged across the ground. On this one I can stand steady and get him in the opposite direction immediately. I've learned how to make a makeshift version of this harness using the leash as well which came in handy when I had my other golden boy at the lake and we had to watch a group of goldens do a retrieve competition into the lake. I thought we were both going to end up going swimming :doh: he wanted to get out there so bad. I made the makeshift harness with the leash and every time he pulled he'd stop himself with barely any effort on my part. Knowing these kind of things has helped me so much. Otherwise I would have been THAT person with the uncontrollable golden who interrupted the Golden Olympics. My point is - having the right equipment is very important. 

Another thing that is helpful is being blunt and not being afraid to have a voice. My boyfriend and take our reactive Golden to a dog friendly park by our house that has hiking trails. We go to practice leash walking in a high distracting environment and work on desensitization. Now this is an off leash dog park as long as dogs are under voice control. When we see people approach from a distance we yell ahead that we have a dog that is not friendly on leash and to keep their dog away from ours when they pass. We do our part and take our dog off the path a good distance away and use this as attention practice as the dog/owners walk by. People are always very understanding. I would not ever go here alone though because not all people have control of their dogs off leash. Having the second person ready to stop the dog from approaching ours is a must. But like I said before practicing good management is key. We know at this particular location we need to be vocal, have a partner, and allow an appropriate amount of distance between distractions. Much of what we have learned has come from working with wonderful trainers. We do a lot of private training with Brian Tippy and he's been marvelous, and we're training with an all positive trainer on our boy's reactivity (in GROUP classes I might add!). 

If you know your dog park is empty in the morning and you always keep a very clear eye out while your dogs are playing for people arriving I don't think you'd need to stop going. I think having the right equipment so that you can control a pulling dog is extremely important. So maybe you need a special harness for the dog park. The other is being vocal. Maybe you see the woman and her dog pull up in their car. You get your dogs on leash and call out to her that you have a dog who is not friendly would she mind waiting while you put them in your car. Most people will be very understanding. Like you mentioned you could even ask if she waits while you put Bella in the car and then you can go back for your other dogs. I'm so happy that no one was hurt in your situation. Its so scary. Don't give up on doing what you and your dogs love, with some creative thinking most of the time you can find a solution. Good Luck!


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## Lucylulu (Aug 4, 2013)

Our family has had multiple aggressive/shy/fearful dogs. These dogs can never be fully trusted 100% no matter how much you work with them in my experience. Precautions must be made for the safety of other dogs/people. That means muzzles, prong collars, no dog park. No exceptions. You just have to be careful. You can't let down your guard. You have to be one step ahead of your dog. I know how exhausting and unfair this can be. But that is the responsibility we take one when we have a dog that is a potential risk to others. It is our duty to make sure those dogs are never put into a situation that will even trigger X behavior. And yet find ways to keep the dog happy.

Good luck and sincerely best wishes and thinking good thoughts xxx


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## Kelev's_Dad (Oct 23, 2009)

Pit bulls here have to be muzzled. But they are not the only dog that is aggressive. Make sure that dogs have cleared your pups personal space before you make the move to go past. If you sense something is up, grab both dog on the top of the collar. The won't get leverage on you this way to pull. All they need is a half step for traction. Watch other dogs for sign of too much curiosity. If yoy need to you can also do a half wrap of their lead around a fence post or something. This way you have control but if the other dog breaks free and attacks you can let go so your dogs are not easy targets. I got attacked a few weeks ago while walking a foster dog and just put myself in between and yelled at the dog to stop. He did. But I was trying to figure out what arm to give up if that didn't work...lol.


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## RockyandMe (Oct 7, 2013)

you do need to do a little training with it. Rocky avoided it for the first couple of days but we always associated with the excitement of going out. Rocky would run to the door and sit down and I would make him get up excited then bring the collar out and then go want to go out want to go out and make him resit. When I would go to put the collar on he ended up associating it with going out and would stick his neck out to get it on as fast as possible. Rocky is a puller too but with the spike collar when he would pull you just give a soft tug and stop walking to associate that the pulling was bad. Anytime he pulls you repeat and eventually(took us about a week) he learned that he needed to walk closely to me and we have had amazing walking results. Also Rocky know automatically goes to sit when we get to a corner the trick is not to give your guy/gal to much leash to walk with unless he is rewarded ie like getting to a park and remaining at sit until released. Also when in use make sure to remove when playing with other dogs or letting roam leash free because if stuck or rolling around with another dog can cause injuries. Again though this collar was made specifically for training dogs who do pull when walked but you do need to train your dog on it.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

I would not even consider putting a choke or prong collar on a reactive dog, the risk of hurting the dog and reinforcing to them they need to be afraid of other dogs (dogs learn by association) when they are 'reacting' is way too high. Punishing or correcting a fearful dog for telling us they are afraid, (growling, lunging, barking) turns off all the 'warning' signals, and you may end up with a dog who does not warn, you really do not want a dog who gives no warning. A front clip harness with the leash attached to both the flat collar and the harness will give you the most control in the event of a surprise.

When we have a reactive dog we need to lower our expectations, and sometimes let go of our dreams (temporarily or long term) and let them tell/show us what they are capable of handling. We need to focus on managing their environment, meaning, no dog parks where there is a high risk of running into other dogs, walking them solo (a timid dog may feel a little 'bolder' with 'back up'), so we can focus on them and our surroundings to eliminate as much as possible those 'chance' encounters, teaching them what to do and helping them to understand that nothing 'bad' is going to happen. We need to be a little more creative in finding ways to give them the exercise they need aside from leash walks - playing fetch, (makeshift) agility equipment, (builds confidence) 'Flirt pole' ( a fantastic energy burner) in the safety of our backyards. 
I understand completely that Bella loves the freedom of the dog park, but in all honesty, it is not a safe place for her to be. It is very risky, and she has had her fears reinforced by the other dog's (understandable) response to her. I also understand that having a reactive dog is restricting, life changing, sometimes disappointing, and amazing when they achieve success, but when things go 'wrong', it is not their fault, we have 'messed up' and put them in a situation that they can not handle.


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## RockyandMe (Oct 7, 2013)

Idk I have a lot of friends who have had fearsome dogs and we would just put them on the spike collar and we would just walk the dogs on opposite sides of our bodies but we would walk next to each other. Anytime the scared dog would act that way or even show aggression we would both stop and correct the dog. You need to show them the behavior isn't acceptable. Eventually the dog sees his owner interacting with the other dog and and can slowly introduce but if the he gets scared or aggressive you give the slight tug on the spike to "correct" and have sit or a stern no. You can't pet or console cause thats how they think or are reinforced about that behaviour. Rocky was scared of bigger dogs for a while and now he has a mastiff as a friend. If your not comfortable with the spike collar though I understand because I was "morally" against it at first but its not going to puncture them especially a golden with there thick coats in their necks. It doesn't work that way and the dog gets the sensation but its like smacking a horse with the whip they aren't hurt by it its more of an awareness situation and with training at first just walking you can control the reactions with it. Day one with rocky he went from uncontrollable pulling on his walks to try and search or play with every animal he saw to complete control with no pulling and was able to teach him 5 walking commands with good reaction the first day.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Partly I am upset because I feel that Bella was making good progress and has backslid. I haven't made the time to work with her lately (house renovation, job search, and traveling got in the way) although she has still been going on walks twice a week with our dog walker. He feels she is doing very well. Later this week I'm leaving on a two-week trip. I'm going to have the dog walker come over daily for one week of that (he can't do it the second week) but I don't think either dog will be leaving the house otherwise. I'm worried about my DD getting into trouble. I've ordered a flirt pole suggested by Charliethree, and I'm going to have DD use that and throw the ball for them. While I'm away, I'm going to think this all through. Had hoped to stop using the dog walker because money is tight but I may need to keep that going.


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