# Guarding Bite



## gsassy268 (Aug 28, 2006)

My 13 week old ripped 3 holes in my finger yesterday. I had just given her a new bone to chew on so my wife and I could watch some tv. I reached down to pet her and without even a warning growl, she bit me, hard.

She did this once before, snarled only though, about 3 weeks ago over a new chew bone. I took it away and held her by the scruff and shook. She has been great since then. Until yesterday's bite. The strange thing is the snarling and biting have taken place in the same room, the downstairs family room, which she rarely has access to and at night with low lighting (it's where we watch tv). I wonder if this has something to do with it. I gave her the same bone today and she allowed me to take it and give it several times without a problem but I did this in the kitchen where she is most of the time.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

I think you're doing the right thing by taking away and giving it back.... She'll eventually learn that you're not a threat... She's gonna get it back...


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

My personal opinion is that a dog should never be snarling or biting at a person, regardless of what room she's in or the lighting conditions. Even if she didn't realize it was you who was reaching for the bone, it still would not be an acceptable behavior to display towards anyone.

Augie (also 13 weeks) got a bit tense the first time he got a bone, so after that I made sure he only got one if he was sitting on someone's lap and they were holding it. Now he doesn't respond negatively at all if someone touches his bone while he's chewing on it. Maybe that would work for you too.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Samson has only done this with my 15 year old son, Ricky, but I believe it had to do with how my Ricky teases Samson. That was a while back, and we've worked on it.....but the snapping and Ricky's teasing. And we haven't had any more issues with it....


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Just make sure he knows who the boss it. You need to be the alpha doggie!


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I very much agree with LaurJen and Vrocco1. I think you did the right thing the first time... no snarling or biting me regardless of the reason or where we are.. period.. I am bigger than you, tougher, and I can whip your little butt... thats what his mom would do..


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## PeggyK (Apr 16, 2005)

I never give the dogs anything to eat without the command "Wait" and they can't touch the food or treat, etc. until I say O.K. It's just another way of enforcing the concept that I am the Alpha in our house. Your pup is still young so I'm sure this behavior can be changed-just be consistent. Good luck.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

PeggyK said:


> I never give the dogs anything to eat without the command "Wait" and they can't touch the food or treat, etc. until I say O.K.


My wife has really done well with this, too. She's also worked very hard with making him GENTLY taking treats from her hand. He used to snap at treats....out of excitement, but she's taughter him to "be nice."


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## fuzzbutt (Aug 16, 2006)

If this puppy were to react to its mother this way she would promply disciplin him by a rough shake or a loud roar and pin down with the muzzle and make him "cry" for what he had done. While I agree teaching the dog to take things nicely is important, you should not be afraid to disciplin a dog sharply when it does something as unacceptable as biting. Behavior such as snapping should be delt with harshly and quickly. It is that quick, instant correction, that "snatch up" that is going to make the dog realize that what he/she did is absolutely not allowed. Never-Ever.


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## gsassy268 (Aug 28, 2006)

Thanks all for your replies......I am not new to dogs ( had a lab for 12 years) but am knew to aggression. I read several posts on this forum after the first snarling incident and thank goodness I did. I think I would have freaked after the 'big bite' yesterday and backed down if I had not read some of the posts. I'm 200lbs she is 20 and she scared the life out of me. It was not a pretty sight to see blood dripping down my hand and me shaking the pup and growling crazily at her. She actually started to lick the bite a little later after order was restored. Hopefully I've seen the last of the 'Lily Monster'. I will keep you updated.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

I can assure you scruff shaking will not cure this problem, actually your golden pup proved it to you by doing it again. About all your gonna create is a fearful pup by doing what your doing, and that is the last thing you want.

I've dealt with this with my Telly, he too had a rawhide issue at about the same age. The best way to work with this issue is to never take, but what you give and when you give to take it must be a higher prized and valued item. This is something that takes a good month to get through with them if it is handled correctly and not done in an aggressive manner. To a small puppy, you are very very aggressive to them by the scruff shake, and in return the puppy will come back very aggressively towards you....think of this dog at full weight coming at you in this manner! This is why it so very important to work the puppy through this correctly.


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## fuzzbutt (Aug 16, 2006)

gsassy268 said:


> Thanks all for your replies......I am not new to dogs ( had a lab for 12 years) but am knew to aggression. I read several posts on this forum after the first snarling incident and thank goodness I did. I think I would have freaked after the 'big bite' yesterday and backed down if I had not read some of the posts. I'm 200lbs she is 20 and she scared the life out of me. It was not a pretty sight to see blood dripping down my hand and me shaking the pup and growling crazily at her. She actually started to lick the bite a little later after order was restored. Hopefully I've seen the last of the 'Lily Monster'. I will keep you updated.



Another note. "agression" is "normal". Its how dogs communicate. Ever seen a litter of puppies interact with each other? They can get down right viscious. They are testing their grounds. They are learning about pain and acceptance. They are teaching each other cause and affect. Aggression is often associated with a bad thing, but its not "all bad". It can be out of control in some situations and it can be dangerous if its allowed to escilate or linked to a behavioral issue like fear or dominance...but aggression by itself is a natural state for the dog. This is why we can't be afraid of it, bribe it, or ignore it. The dog must learn to not be a dog in that scenerio, that aggression to their human pack is absolutely not acceptable. Good luck with your puppy! I am sure it will all work out ok!


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

I so totally disagree with you! Aggression is not a natural state for a golden puppy, just not so. Puppys do not in no way communicate by being aggressive, puppies play and when they get to rough the other puppies may back away and not play with that puppy, this is one way they use to show the puppy it isn't exceptable. I'm sorry, but that isn't in the standard whatsoever for a golden retriever as far as "Aggression" being normal....it just isn't so! 

As i've stated, your aggression towards your puppy has already escalated do to your aggression, and it will get worse if handled incorrectly as you have just seen. Do your research, there is plent of it out there....just make sure you get at the right info, there is a lot of incorrect info out there as well that will make it worse.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

the issue is not to be able to take a bone from the dog...the issue is that the dog should NOT bite a person...period.. yeah, your method will convince the dog to give up the bone because somthing better is coming.. 
but my point and the point of others is that the pup should NOT bite.. period.. 
getting in your pups face will NOT create an agressive dog.. 
I have gotten into the face of every pup I have ever had over the last 30 years and I have never ever had an agressive dog.. never.. and a couple have done just as was described on this thread.. I did just what he said.. I applied correction.. yeah, I punised her... I didnt hurt her, but let her know that biting was totally unacceptable.. 
I am not into negotiating with my dog to not bite me..


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

gsassy268 said:


> My 13 week old ripped 3 holes in my finger yesterday. I had just given her a new bone to chew on so my wife and I could watch some tv. I reached down to pet her and without even a warning growl, she bit me, hard.
> She did this once before, snarled only though, about 3 weeks ago over a new chew bone. I took it away and held her by the scruff and shook. She has been great since then. Until yesterday's bite.


What i'm saying is this is getting worse, not better! The method isn't working, it is making it worse. Aggression feeds aggression, it never truely fix's a problem. If you read in the first case, the pup snarled only. The scruff shake was done. The second time the pup actually moved forward and ripped 3 holes in the fingers. The pup didn't throw an actual bite, the pull back of the fingers most likely is what caused the rip in the fingers. Pups have have very short razor sharp teeth as we all know. This is a very delicate situation, if it isn't handled correctly and safely it will only get worse then what it is now. 

In the method I used, I was not negotiating a bite either....I was working him safely through it to avoid future problems later if a child would be involved and I not there or around at the moment, or a tid bit thrown down by a child. Fear of an owners reaction may hold a pup back, but what if that owner isn't around at the time....what is there to fear then.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

exactly my point.. the pup should be taught not to bite..period.. ok..he had to correct the pup twice.. I have never had to.. 
i guess we will just have to disagree on this.. 
all I can tell you is that I have had goldens for 30 years.. I have had more than one pup test me... each time I got in their face about it and I have never ever had an agressive golden..... never.. and my kids were raised with them... they might growl or snap at another dog trying to steal their food or get in their truck..but never so much as a growl at a person.. never.. 
I address the issue of biting.. period...not just for food.. for any reason...
your method would seem to address the food issue, but what about for other reasons?.. 
I just think they should be taught not to bite.. 
what about if a kid pulls his tail??? i know a kid should not do that and we try and watch, but I dont want the dog biting for any reason....


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## fuzzbutt (Aug 16, 2006)

Goldndust said:


> I so totally disagree with you! Aggression is not a natural state for a golden puppy, just not so. Puppys do not in no way communicate by being aggressive, puppies play and when they get to rough the other puppies may back away and not play with that puppy, this is one way they use to show the puppy it isn't exceptable. I'm sorry, but that isn't in the standard whatsoever for a golden retriever as far as "Aggression" being normal....it just isn't so!
> 
> As i've stated, your aggression towards your puppy has already escalated do to your aggression, and it will get worse if handled incorrectly as you have just seen. Do your research, there is plent of it out there....just make sure you get at the right info, there is a lot of incorrect info out there as well that will make it worse.



You are thinking of aggression in a bad light. As in, violence. Aggression is normal. Aggression is what gives a dog drive, it what gives a dog desire.
You have "aggressive breeders" dogs who have high labido. You have a dog who is an aggressive retrieve. You are connecting aggression with "biting" or violence. And that is NOT what aggressive SHOULD mean.
Puppies hurt each other. That is how they learn. They learn when I hurt you you hurt me back. That is the basis for bite inhibition. Puppies are cruel to each other. They will gang up on one puppy in the litter and beat them up. Why? Prey drive, i.e. aggression. They are nurturing the basic instincts that come from their primal past. They are being DOGS which is what they are, Not people in fur coats. Puppies the same age with each other can defend themselves from each other. If you were to put a 4 week old puppy in with 6 week old puppies they would probably kill it or severly injure it. WHY? they are being aggressive and testing the boudries of their behavior. The smaller puppy is too weak to defend itself and thus they will take advantage of the situation. 
This lack of owners realizing that all dogs have the capability to be aggressive and that aggression is normal (we just teach them other wise and again not refering to out of control biting) is the reason why you have owners with dogs with behavior issues. This is why owners get bit by their dogs. 
I agree its important for any owner having issues with their dog or puppy to do a lot of research. I strongly suggest looking up some basice books in animal psychology to help one to understand how a dog's brain is hard wired.


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## gold'nchocolate (May 31, 2005)

Maybe you could hand feed him his meals for awhile to get him used to the fact that you control the food, not him. Are you familiar with the _Nothing In_ _Life Is Free_ (NILIF) techniques? http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

Years ago, my daughter who was 8 yrs old at the time was bitten in the face by a 12 wk old puppy who was chewing on a rawhide. My daughter had bent down to play with the pup and it happened in a flash. She got 2 stitches to close up the 2 puncture wounds...it could have been so much worse. A young boy in my town had his nose bitten totally off his face by his grandfathers dog. Over the years he has had many reconstructive surgeries to repair the damage.


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## MILLIESMOM (Aug 13, 2006)

It is good to teach them that you can take anything they have at any time for their own good. Thus you do not have to chase them if they have something that is unsafe. My dogs from the time they were a small pup learned to sit, wait, and look at me,til I say OK or who ever happens to be feeding them, BEFORE they eat or get a rawhide chew. I can reach down and take it at anytime with no problem.


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

*Gsassy*, were you looking at the pup when you reached down to give the pets, or were you looking at the TV? I ask this to clarify whether the dog actually gave a warning sign before biting. usually, it's the hardened eyes and the straight posture and the slow movements. In my opinion, when you see those signs, it's time for a tradeoff instead of an offesnive move on your part.

I'm with *Goldndust *when it comes to this matter. I've not worked with young puppies, but my experience with young adult rescued dogs has taught that it's always better to trade out toys for bones or whetever than it is to try getting in the dog's face. Plus, in an established relationship like I have with my two dogs, it's the trusted thing to do.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I do a mixture of both. The tradeoff is important but also I expect Lucky not to bite and I don't allow him to growl at me either. 

The tradeoff is used to help Lucky feel secure, widen his comfortzone and gain trust. I use it as a training exercise. I would never use that tecnique if he growled at me, because I don't allow him to call the shots. Thats my opinion only. I know others may differ and they have great friendly dogs.

With the tradeoff exercise, I'm working for a positive instant reaction to occur if someone gets near him if he has a bone,food, whatever. I want "Wonderful, a human is coming" instead of "someones going to take my bone".


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

Goldndust said:


> I can assure you scruff shaking will not cure this problem, actually your golden pup proved it to you by doing it again. About all your gonna create is a fearful pup by doing what your doing, and that is the last thing you want.
> 
> I've dealt with this with my Telly, he too had a rawhide issue at about the same age. The best way to work with this issue is to never take, but what you give and when you give to take it must be a higher prized and valued item. This is something that takes a good month to get through with them if it is handled correctly and not done in an aggressive manner. To a small puppy, you are very very aggressive to them by the scruff shake, and in return the puppy will come back very aggressively towards you....think of this dog at full weight coming at you in this manner! This is why it so very important to work the puppy through this correctly.


I don't agree with some of this. If my puppy views me as the pack leader, I should be able to reach down and take away anything he has at will, with no aggression and no protest on his part. I'm not going to barter with him by telling him, "Please may I have this? I'll give you something way better!" It doesn't happen in the wild--the pack leader doesn't trade with the other dogs when he wants something... he's in charge, he takes, and the others fall in line. What if the puppy has something "bad" that you need to take away right away, but you don't have something better in your pocket for a trade?

If a bite or a growl does occur, I agree that you don't need to be aggressive, but there does have to be a consequence, or the dog "wins." As I mentioned, the first time Augie tensed up when I approached his bone it got taken away and from then on he only got it when someone was holding it. Now when he gets one he will cuddle next to me or one of the kids or climb in our laps to chew on it.


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

LaurJen said:


> What if the puppy has something "bad" that you need to take away right away, but you don't have something better in your pocket for a trade?QUOTE]
> 
> "Bring it." "Drop it." "Leave it." "Back up." "Stop." "Stay." "Wait."
> 
> ...


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

looks like there are lots of opinions on this..guess that is what makes the site good... but I am with LaurJen, what I say goes.. period.. no bartering.. 
and when you say agression I think you may be stretching it a little.. this is not a violent encounter.. just dead on serious... business like tone of voice.. there will be no biting or growling at people.. 
follow my rules and life is good... Watch Cesar deal with an agressive dog. He just totally takes charge.. there is no yelling or screaming..just firmness...


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## gsassy268 (Aug 28, 2006)

*Jeffreyzone*- I was watching the TV and just reached down rather quickly. She was by the side of my chair and I couldn't see her at all. She may have been giving me signals and I missed them. No growl though like the first time. She only does this with NEW eatible things. Not new toys or old bones.
I got her over food guarding by feeding her by hand and dropping treats in her bowel. She now allows me to take the bowel away and give it back without incident. 
*Goldndust*- For the past 2 days I have been TRADING treats for new bones and new bones for new bones and have not had even a signal that she is upset. I don't know if it was the way I handled the bite situation or the trading or a combonation of both, but she seems to be over the guarding. I know a few days isn't proof but I will keep you updated. She still loves to grab clothing and chew on us but our Vet says that's normal 'puppy stuff'.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

gsassy268 said:


> *Jeffreyzone*- I was watching the TV and just reached down rather quickly. She was by the side of my chair and I couldn't see her at all. She may have been giving me signals and I missed them. No growl though like the first time. She only does this with NEW eatible things. Not new toys or old bones.
> I got her over food guarding by feeding her by hand and dropping treats in her bowel. She now allows me to take the bowel away and give it back without incident.
> *Goldndust*- For the past 2 days I have been TRADING treats for new bones and new bones for new bones and have not had even a signal that she is upset. I don't know if it was the way I handled the bite situation or the trading or a combonation of both, but she seems to be over the guarding. I know a few days isn't proof but I will keep you updated. She still loves to grab clothing and chew on us but our Vet says that's normal 'puppy stuff'.


I would NOT assume she's over guarding. Its something you need to be aware of for the rest of her life. It shouldn't be a "burden" on you or anything, but this cure does not transfer to other people, and you need to be aware, especially if kids are around.

Lucky's issues have only taken place with new bones and occassonally food. Me and the kids have used different techniques that worked. Lucky is FOR THE MOST part not tense when they come around when he's eating or chewing a bone. He is never tense around me.

I gave Lucky a pigs ear last month and as he ate it I went over and petted him, rubbed his snout as he chewed. I put my hand on the pigs ear as he chewed and he didn't even tense. Satisfied I sat back on the couch.

My husband came home an hour or so later and Lucky growled at him just as he walked towards him. A few days later he growled at my husband as he was eating. 

I'm not trying to scare you or anything, and I wouldn't trade Lucky for any other dog. I just think you need to understand that if she has done this with you she has potential to act like that with someone else.


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