# blocky?



## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

maybe the term blocky head you are referring to


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

Blocky does refer to the head shape. My Caue is fairly blocky and my Oakly is definatly not blocky at all.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

And although it's not quite the opposite, if you had to find a description that is the opposite of "blocky," I would use the word "snipey," since that describes a dog with a narrow, pointed muzzle, and dogs like that generally don't give the appearance of having that "block-type" of headpiece. (JMHO)


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## zeke11 (Jul 21, 2009)

hmmm...can I see some pics for clarification??

Kris


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

Here is a post I just made of my two boys. Caue is the darker golden with the blockier head and Oakly is the lighter golden with the more streamlined (Sniped head)

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=71158


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## zeke11 (Jul 21, 2009)

Wow, they are both so beautiful. I think Duffy is going to be a blockhead. 

I love the snow noses....see I know something!

Kris


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## Goldnbear (Dec 28, 2009)

My dog Zipper I would describe as blocky. My husband who knows little about dogs and even less about dog lingo nicknamed him blockhead If you click on my albums, he is the one on my profile picture.


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## BearValley (Nov 30, 2008)

This is my Dad's boy who is somewhat blocky:


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

Our boys are both pretty blocky. Tyson is only 8 weeks old, but he already has a pretty square head.

This is Tucker, who has a block head:









Here is Tyson (who we just got today) who is probably going to be pretty blocky like his parents. He already has a wide snout and a pretty big head.


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## Goldnbear (Dec 28, 2009)

What a cute puppy! Congratulations on the baby. Sorry off subject! Had to comment.


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## Bogart (Nov 14, 2009)

I love the Block heads also. Short, wide mussle, or short stop. My first Golden was a female and she had a long narrow mussle and her head was more narrow.
All the best,
Elke, ZsaZsa and Bogart


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## mdoats (Jun 7, 2007)

Rookie is kind of in the middle. His head is not particularly blocky, but it's blocky enough that people who know golden retrievers would know he's a male. 

It's also interesting how different he looks from different angles. I think in the first photo, his head looks a fair bit blockier than it does in the second photo. The third photo also looks a bit blockier.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Another block head


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

Another Purdy Blockhead! :



Jo Ellen said:


> Another block head


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

Here is Vito as a puppy and Vito now (almost 2 years old). As a puppy he seemed to have a block head. However now, his head is more narrow.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

A blocky head can definitely be explained in technical terms by someone smarter than me. It has to do with the amount of backskull, the proportion of muzzle length and width, and the "stop" or angle between muzzle and forehead. Some dogs are so blocky they lose breed type and are called "coarse" or "overdone; at the other extreme are goldens with pointy noses or flat collie heads with no stop. Tally has a blocky head; Finn does not have a blocky head









http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv72/finn8811/IMG_3838.jpg







FINN.1.jpg[/IMG]http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh287/ljilly28/Lake0409/IMG_2466-1-1.jpg


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## twofastdogs (Nov 8, 2009)

My vet was nuzzling Piper on Thursday and murmured "Oh, you blocky girl" So I guess I have a blockhead.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Tilly most definitely has a blocky head


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

Another question...

Does the blocky head have to do with 
-male vs female (male having wider skull, female narrower)
-male being neutered later (male hormones contributing to wider skull)
-field lines vs show lines
-genetics


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Ooooh, Oakely's Dad! LOVE the pix you linked us to. The first one of them 'flying' is just fantastic!


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Max had a blocky head as a puppy andI"m thinking it's still considered blocky? I don't think any of my current pictures in my sig show it well though.


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## NapaValleyGolden (Mar 24, 2008)

Here are Cody and Duke. I think Cody (10 months) has a blocky head while Duke (2 1/2 yrs) does not.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

> Does the blocky head have to do with
> -male vs female (male having wider skull, female narrower)
> -male being neutered later (male hormones contributing to wider skull)
> -field lines vs show lines
> -genetics


Yes, maybe, yes and yes.

Males will generally have wider skulls and blockier heads than females of the same litter. 

Some people says yes, some people say no about early spay/neuter.

Show lines tend to have blockier heads.

Genetics is the key!


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

Willow52 said:


> Another question...
> 
> Does the blocky head have to do with
> -male vs female (male having wider skull, female narrower)
> ...


-male vs female (male having wider skull, female narrower)
IMHO, a bitch should look like a bitch--should look feminine, and a dog look like a dog--like a male. But they can both have broad skulls and well defined stops. Here is one breeder that IMHO is known for a particular style, or type, to her headpieces, Malagold Kennels, and if you scroll down on this page, you'll see a large close up photo of the headpiece of one of her champion bitches, "Sweetie" that I think many on this thread would consider "blocky."

http://http://malagold.com/dogs/sweetie_pg.html

-male being neutered later (male hormones contributing to wider skull)
There's been studies done on the bone development of dogs, early spay/neuter and hormones and the research points towards early spay/neuter candidates having a "weedier" appearance because their growth plates continued to grow. Could it impact the growth plates all over, not only the bones in the leg? Could be, but head type also, to some degree, IMHO, is based on.. .

-genetics
My idea of a master breeder is one that has read the Golden Retriever standard and has in her or her own mind what an ideal Golden should look and act like, and is breeding with that goal in mind. One component of that standard is the headpiece, which is important, because our dogs were originally bred as hunting dogs, to search, pick up, carry and bring back large game birds both on land and in water. The dog needs a strong muzzle!

which leads to your last question. . .
-field lines vs show lines 
That's a great question. There's only one Golden Retriever standard--not a "field" golden or a "show" golden standard. I think that is the reason behind the Golden Retriever Club of America's decision to start what is called the Certificate of Conformation Assessment program--so that all goldens, even those that aren't in the show ring, can be assessed by judges and evaluated to see how well they meet the Golden Retriever standard.


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## Jennifer (Sep 12, 2009)

I think Teddy has a pretty blocky head, but I'm thinking he may lose some of the blockiness because he has to be neutered before a year.


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

Honey is blocky, but dont know how to post a picture from my albums.


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## 3SweetGoldens (Feb 28, 2007)

My Lexi has the blocky head. When looking for the look and temperament I wanted we made sure the Sire also had the blocky head. here is a recent picture of Klondike, he was 2 in November.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'd like to second the comment that *there is only one breed standard. *
Nowhere is it written that "field goldens" (which are what, exactly?) should have different heads than "show goldens" (which again, are what?).
One would think that, if anything, dogs bred for field work should adhere MORE closely to the standard, since the standard is supposed to reflect the original purpose of the breed.

_*"...Head*_ -- broad in skull, slightly arched laterally and longitudinally without prominence of frontal bones (forehead) or occipital bones. Stop well defined but not abrupt. Foreface deep and wide, nearly as long as skull. Muzzle straight in profile, blending smoothly and strongly into skull; when viewed in profile or from above, slightly deeper and wider at stop than at tip. No heaviness in flews. Removal of whiskers is permitted but not preferred.
*Eyes *-- friendly and intelligent in expression, medium large with dark, close-fitting rims, set well apart and reasonably deep in sockets..."

The standard is pretty clear about what the correct shape of the head, although of course it's open to interpretation what "broad in skull" means.




rappwizard said:


> --genetics
> My idea of a master breeder is one that has read the Golden Retriever standard and has in her or her own mind what an ideal Golden should look and act like, and is breeding with that goal in mind. One component of that standard is the headpiece, which is important, because our dogs were originally bred as hunting dogs, to search, pick up, carry and bring back large game birds both on land and in water. The dog needs a strong muzzle!
> 
> which leads to your last question. . .
> ...


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

so blocky head is breed standard?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

It would appear so, from the way people are describing blocky. The standard does specify "foreface deep and wide" and "stop well defined".




momtoMax said:


> so blocky head is breed standard?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I hate the term "blocky", as do most breeders that I know.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

it does seem like it has a negative connotation. Makes me think of some of the very overdone labs I've seen recently.




Pointgold said:


> I hate the term "blocky", as do most breeders that I know.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Hmm...I've always thought of blocky as desirable and attractive.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> it does seem like it has a negative connotation. Makes me think of some of the very overdone labs I've seen recently.


 
It is a term that was coined by byb's and millers, it isn't anything that you will see in the standard, and most reputable breeders cringe at the word. I understand the conotation. A beautiful, correct headpiece is not "blocky".


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Is there a word for a beautiful, correct headpiece? Most people don't talk in breeder language. What word are we to use when we're describing this attribute? I'm pretty sure we all know what "blocky" is, but if we don't call it blocky, what do we call it?


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## zeke11 (Jul 21, 2009)

Does this guy have a beautiful correct headpiece, do you think? Or no? I promise, I will love him no matter what!


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Shelley & Einstein both have blocky heads but there both from show line goldens too.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I would like to direct you to this part of the standard (which is the beginning of it, actually). 
I would say your guy certainly has a kindly expression and appears to be eager, alert, and self-confident. 
What more could you ask for?


_*"...General Appearance*_ -- a symmetrical, powerful, active dog, sound and well put together, not clumsy nor long in the leg, displaying a kindly expression and possessing a personality that is eager, alert and self-confident. Primarily a hunting dog, he should be shown in hard working condition. Over-all appearance, balance, gait and purpose to be given more emphasis than any of his component parts....."



zeke11 said:


> Does this guy have a beautiful correct headpiece, do you think? Or no? I promise, I will love him no matter what!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I've heard breeders refer to it as a "correct", "beautiful", or "nice" headpiece. I've also heard them say "overdone" or "too much head". 
That's not meant to be a sarcastic answer. It's how I hear breeders ringside describe a dog's or bitch's head.




Jo Ellen said:


> Is there a word for a beautiful, correct headpiece? Most people don't talk in breeder language. What word are we to use when we're describing this attribute? I'm pretty sure we all know what "blocky" is, but if we don't call it blocky, what do we call it?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I think of "blocky" as a good thing. Scanning through the photos quickly, I do think Daisy and Klondike have my idea of nice blocky heads. This is usually the way I hear the word used in converstion" A good, blocky head". . .

When people use "blocky" as a negative, they are usually referring to a dog that is too short and wide in the muzzle with too much of an exagerated stop to really be in breed standard (with usually ears a bit too big and low set on a big head) with a ton of backskull. Then, the dog loses breed type looks like a Great Pyrenees or Newfie mix as much as the golden standard type.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

And if you've ever been with 3, 4 breeders, and you're brave enough to ask them to assess your golden's headpiece (or even your golden!) it's a fascinating experience in how different breeders interpret the standard, their likes and dislikes, and the different things they emphasize.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> I've heard breeders refer to it as a "correct", "beautiful", or "nice" headpiece. I've also heard them say "overdone" or "too much head".
> That's not meant to be a sarcastic answer. It's how I hear breeders ringside describe a dog's or bitch's head.


That's pretty much what I say, and what I have heard from other breeders. If evaluating a dog, we will get more specific, discussing back skull, muzzle length, depth and width, etc.

The CCA Evaluator sheet gives an idea of what is looked for in a correct or pleasing Golden head:

http://www.grca.org/pdf/events/cca/CCAEvaluatorScoreSheet.pdf

http://www.grca.org/pdf/events/cca/CCADescriptors.pdf

http://www.grca.org/pdf/events/cca/CCAGuidelinesForEvaluators.pdf

and yes, you can see that there is room for interpretation 

The Marcia Schlehr (sp?) Blue Book is a wonderful illustrated way to look at the Standard and Goldens.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

thanks Linda, those sheets were excellent! printed them for reference!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I just don't ever see myself referring to Daisy's head as as headpiece : I understand that's how breeders talk when they're evaluating, but as far as regular owners like myself when I'm just talking casually about my dog ... blocky head will do


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

rappwizard said:


> And if you've ever been with 3, 4 breeders, and you're brave enough to ask them to assess your golden's headpiece (or even your golden!) it's a fascinating experience in how different breeders interpret the standard, their likes and dislikes, and the different things they emphasize.


I totally agree with this. I am interested in the idea that all goldens should exhibit breed type but may differ in style. My region, the northeast, has a very identifiable prevailing style to my eye influenced by Twin Beau D and Nautilus- but then other breeding programs that stamp far different styles interpret the breed standard more moderately- Mirasol and Yogi being an example of that.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

When I lived in Greenville, SC back in the mid-70's to early 80's, a neighbor child brought me a Golden Retriever he had found and thought might be mine. He wasn't, but I recognized the head immediately and called Pat Klausman from Pekay Goldens to ask if she had sold a male dog to the Greenville area. She had, and the naughty boy was soon reunited with his frantic owners. Pat was amazed that I recognized him as her breeding, and I told her that she had a very certain head style that was easily recognizable 

Years ago, when I had my Scout and Scarlet kids, people who bought puppies from me were always amazed that when they attended puppy class in the Twin Cities, the instructors knew that I was the breeder before being told  Those kids and their descendants were very identifiable by their heads and coat.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> I totally agree with this. I am interested in the idea that all goldens should exhibit breed type but may differ in style. My region, the northeast, has a very identifiable prevailing style to my eye influenced by Twin Beau D and Nautilus- but then other breeding programs that stamp far different styles interpret the breed standard more moderately- Mirasol and Yogi being an example of that.


And you have an understanding of the difference between "type" and "style". They are two very different things, and are often used interchangeably, albeit incorrectly. 
The Golden Retriever head is a _very _important part of what exemplifies breed type. A Golden should absolutely be discernible from a Labrador, and not just because one has long hair and the other short... A Golden head is _very _different from a Flat Coat head, and in silhouette should be easily identifed - it's not just that one is gold and the other black or liver...
In part, the term "blocky" came about when byb's and millers determined that buyers wanted the same "look" as the show dogs that they were seeing, and one of the most noticeable differences was in the head - the byb's were often Setter or Collie-like - longish, narrow heads - as opposed to a broader, more proportionate, correct head. As a way to identify the more desireable "look", the word "blocky" became common. Today it is almost exclusively used by "breeders" of the byb or hvb type, who advertise on the myriad of Puppy4Sale type sites. They usually are lacking clearances, are out of standard, and/or are the same people hawking "rare white", "European creams", etc etc. It is just one other component of the way that these dogs are marketed. 
The Golden Retriever head being called "blocky" conjures an image of coarse, harsh, and cold, as opposed to beautful, soft, and friendly.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> When I lived in Greenville, SC back in the mid-70's to early 80's, a neighbor child brought me a Golden Retriever he had found and thought might be mine. He wasn't, but I recognized the head immediately and called Pat Klausman from Pekay Goldens to ask if she had sold a male dog to the Greenville area. She had, and the naughty boy was soon reunited with his frantic owners. Pat was amazed that I recognized him as her breeding, and I told her that she had a very certain head style that was easily recognizable
> 
> Years ago, when I had my Scout and Scarlet kids, people who bought puppies from me were always amazed that when they attended puppy class in the Twin Cities, the instructors knew that I was the breeder before being told  Those kids and their descendants were very identifiable by their heads and coat.


The same is true in our area - Lyric put her stamp on her kids/grands/greatgrands... the vets and other trainers recognize our dogs.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> That's pretty much what I say, and what I have heard from other breeders. If evaluating a dog, we will get more specific, discussing back skull, muzzle length, depth and width, etc.
> 
> The CCA Evaluator sheet gives an idea of what is looked for in a correct or pleasing Golden head:
> 
> ...


This is so helpful in trying to understand the WHOLE picture.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> When I lived in Greenville, SC back in the mid-70's to early 80's, a neighbor child brought me a Golden Retriever he had found and thought might be mine. He wasn't, but I recognized the head immediately and called Pat Klausman from Pekay Goldens to ask if she had sold a male dog to the Greenville area. She had, and the naughty boy was soon reunited with his frantic owners. Pat was amazed that I recognized him as her breeding, and I told her that she had a very certain head style that was easily recognizable
> 
> Years ago, when I had my Scout and Scarlet kids, people who bought puppies from me were always amazed that when they attended puppy class in the Twin Cities, the instructors knew that I was the breeder before being told  Those kids and their descendants were very identifiable by their heads and coat.


 
My vet and her assistants knew right away that Brady (from Twin-Beau-D ) was not local in the part of Mass I used to live.

Even here in Missouri, everybody comments that he does not look like the Goldens here.


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## marieb (Mar 24, 2008)

This is very interesting, I enjoy reading and learning more about the standard. I thought Maddie was coming from a "good" breeder, but I don't think she did, and I don't think she fits the breed standard. 

But I was curious, would her profile be an example of the more "Setter" or "Collie" incorrect head shape? I feel like her head shape would not be ideal and I think her eyes are also small and squinty. (Sorry I don't know how to make the pictures smaller)



Pointgold said:


> And you have an understanding of the difference between "type" and "style". They are two very different things, and are often used interchangeably, albeit incorrectly.
> The Golden Retriever head is a _very _important part of what exemplifies breed type. A Golden should absolutely be discernible from a Labrador, and not just because one has long hair and the other short... A Golden head is _very _different from a Flat Coat head, and in silhouette should be easily identifed - it's not just that one is gold and the other black or liver...
> In part, the term "blocky" came about when byb's and millers determined that buyers wanted the same "look" as the show dogs that they were seeing, and one of the most noticeable differences was in the head - the byb's were often Setter or Collie-like - longish, narrow heads - as opposed to a broader, more proportionate, correct head. As a way to identify the more desireable "look", the word "blocky" became common. Today it is almost exclusively used by "breeders" of the byb or hvb type, who advertise on the myriad of Puppy4Sale type sites. They usually are lacking clearances, are out of standard, and/or are the same people hawking "rare white", "European creams", etc etc. It is just one other component of the way that these dogs are marketed.
> The Golden Retriever head being called "blocky" conjures an image of coarse, harsh, and cold, as opposed to beautful, soft, and friendly.


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## 3SweetGoldens (Feb 28, 2007)

cubbysan said:


> My vet and her assistants knew right away that Brady (from Twin-Beau-D ) was not local in the part of Mass I used to live.
> 
> Even here in Missouri, everybody comments that he does not look like the Golden's here.


 
This is so TRUE!! One of Lexi's boy's from her first litter, is in FL. He is a gorgeous bigger boy....much the same look as my Klondike...just a bit darker in color, but still quite light. She is always asked where his breeder is located, (which I am in WA. state) and if I will be having additional litters. Also, if she is planning to use her Walker for stud. The Eastern coast Golden's do IMO do have a different look to them then the East Coast, though both fit the Golden standard.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Daisy's a West Coast girl, from Washington too!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

3SweetGoldens said:


> This is so TRUE!! One of Lexi's boy's from her first litter, is in FL. He is a gorgeous bigger boy....much the same look as my Klondike...just a bit darker in color, but still quite light. She is always asked where his breeder is located, (which I am in WA. state) and if I will be having additional litters. Also, if she is planning to use her Walker for stud. The Eastern coast Golden's do IMO do have a different look to them then the East Coast, though both fit the Golden standard.


The same goes with the great pyrenees lines. I used to be a big great pyrenees spectator at dog shows, and I could always tell the the great pyreneeses from the West Coast compared to the East coast and Canada.


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

Tahnee GR said:


> That's pretty much what I say, and what I have heard from other breeders. If evaluating a dog, we will get more specific, discussing back skull, muzzle length, depth and width, etc.
> 
> The CCA Evaluator sheet gives an idea of what is looked for in a correct or pleasing Golden head:
> 
> ...


This is great! Thanks so much for posting!

Can someone post an example of an undesirable dished face? Would the dish/curve be on the snout?


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

Griff's a bit of a blockhead.. in more ways than one! :

My brother calls him "BigHeadBoy". Letting them mature before having them neutered contributes to the more big, blocky, masculine head.


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