# Need help training gurus: Retrieving Problem



## nGoldenm (Jan 17, 2007)

Hi guys,

First thing is a little bit about Max. He's about 4 years old and neutered. He's fairly active. He likes to fetch, but he is not one of those maniacal "Throwtheballthrowtheballthrowtheball!!!!" type of dogs. If there's anything else that you would like to know, don't hesitate to ask.

I have a problem that I am trying to figure out. Max likes to fetch and I like doing it with him because it's a great way to wear him out. I have a kong on a rope that I use to throw for him.

First problem: He will not retrieve it unless I throw it a very long way. I can't just toss it and have him go get it. I have to whirl it around my head and really chunk it! Then he tears off like demon, chases it down and brings it back. Is there any kind of tips or exercises I can do to get to realize that he can retrieve something that is thrown closer? This one is more of just a consistency thing. I would like him to retrieve whatever I throw whether it be short or long.

Second Problem: Sometimes after he chases it down, he just lays down and chews on it. Is there any way to encourage him to bring it back to me? He usually only does this after he has been retrieving for a while, so I have just been attributing this to him being tired. And again, this is more of a consistency thing. I am asking him to bring it back and he ignores me.

Third Problem: Now, despite what I have said in the previous things, this is the one that I want to really fix. He generally has the chase, grab, bring back, and drop thing down pat (other then the occasional lay down and chew). Except on the drop thing. Sometimes he drops it 3/4 of the way back, sometimes halfway and even only 1/4 of the way back. He didn't used to do this. I would have to fight with him to get the toy/ball/etc from him. Is there anyway to encourage a full retrieve?

For those of you who are still reading, thank you. I tend to ramble sometimes.  Any suggestions are welcome, no matter what they are. Maybe I just need to try to start training him all over again from the beginning. How would I go about this, if it would be beneficial? Thanks again.


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## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

The root of all the problems you discussed is that he doesen't have a formal reterieve. What drives him to chase the ball is just his instincts not a trained behavior. I'd work on building a formal reterive with him. Right now he is just being a dog with a toy but dosen't really understand "the Game" you are trying to play.


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## nGoldenm (Jan 17, 2007)

OK, that makes sense. Do you have any links or anything that could help me figure out how to begin teaching a formal retrieve? Thanks.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I had a dog (non retriever of course) that was nuts for going after a ball and getting it straight to me...as fast as he could. And he love the fetch game...was so excited when he saw the ball in my hand.

and then there is Lucky who may run after it, might start back to me with it, but always drops it halfway to chew on some obviously more interesting grass. There is no enthusiasm from him. I'm just curious if a dog can learn to enjoy something he's not enthusiastic with from the first.


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## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

ngold you might try searching in the obediance section of this forum. I used a complitation of techniques from books that I have. I have been building a reterive on a non retreving dog. But I am working on a formal OB reterive on my BC mix. (we are planning on showing in UKC).

I'd be willing to try and help you but I had to start from very unintersted point and build drive. ( so yes lucky's mom its VERY possible to bulid drive) It sounds like he has drive you just need the structure.

What I would do first is start with Take It (or what ever you want your command to be). Give the command and put the ball in his mouth then good boy and treat.

What is his response to that??


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## nGoldenm (Jan 17, 2007)

Lucky's mom said:


> I had a dog (non retriever of course) that was nuts for going after a ball and getting it straight to me...as fast as he could. And he love the fetch game...was so excited when he saw the ball in my hand.
> 
> and then there is Lucky who may run after it, might start back to me with it, but always drops it halfway to chew on some obviously more interesting grass. There is no enthusiasm from him. I'm just curious if a dog can learn to enjoy something he's not enthusiastic with from the first.


It's not that he isn't enthusiastic about it. I'll throw it and he runs flat out until he catches it. Then he grabs it and trots back at a brisk pace. He hurries to get back. He just drops it halfway and keeps coming back to me like he thinks that is what he is supposed to do.



bizzy said:


> I'd be willing to try and help you but I had to start from very unintersted point and build drive. ( so yes lucky's mom its VERY possible to bulid drive) It sounds like he has drive you just need the structure.
> 
> What I would do first is start with Take It (or what ever you want your command to be). Give the command and put the ball in his mouth then good boy and treat.
> 
> What is his response to that??


I tried doing that for a little bit last night. As soon as I put it in his mouth, he immediately spits it out. How should I go about getting him to grab and hold it? I had him readily reaching his mouth for the ball when I would say "Take it" but as soon as he would grab it, "blech!" out it would come immediately. Does this help at all? Thanks for helping me out. I really appreciate it.


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## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

LOL sound like mine mix except for eager to take part. The best way I can describe it is the differance between sit and stay. When you are teaching them sit if they sit but get right back up they still did what you asked. What you want to build it the understanding that "take it" means take it and HOLD it untill I tell you to give it back.

Start by puting the ball in his mouth and telling him to hold. You may need to hold his nose shut. Start with just 1-2 seconds then Ok or give and give him a treat/or praise. Do this untill he will hold it for a few second on his own without you holding his mouth shut. Its important during this time to be faster than him so you can reward those few moments of holding and not the act of spitting the ball out (make sence its a timming thing, you want to reward the "right" thing ). At first you want to be in 100% control but as he gets it the idea (like after 50+ of the prior stage) give him the chance to drop it. When she would drop it I would give her the verbal sound I use in training to let her know she made a wrong choice (ah anah) and *I *would put the DB back in her mouth. After a second I would give her the release and reward. It not really a correction but I find setting up a limited training situation with a right and wrong choice can help her understand what I want. Hold ball=reward Drop ball= no reward Its not a "wrong" behavoir it just not what you want him to do.

Let me know how it goes.


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## nGoldenm (Jan 17, 2007)

Sounds good. I'll give it a whirl today.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Bizzy has given you great advice... and I don't want to step on any toes, but I wanted to share something I learned in trying to teach a formal retrieve. When you are in this first stage, the dog IS going to want to spit out the object (as you've already seen). When Bizzy says to hold the mouth closed and wait 1-2 seconds, I just wanted to add that ideally you want to wait until the dog is no longer trying to spit out the object. The second they hold it nicely, give the release command (give, out, okay, whatever) and treat/praise. You want to make sure the dog knows that you are rewarding a nice hold, and not the struggle, if that makes sense. Also, I would suggest something a little smaller/easier to hold than a tennis ball if you have it. But the most important part, when starting, is that it's an object the dog likes to hold, so if a tennis ball fits that bill best that's fine. A couple other little tips: Holding the mouth closed is a gentle process... only give as much pressure as you need to in order to keep the object in their mouth. It's not going to be the most pleasant thing in the world for the dog, so try not to make it any worse than it has to be. (That sounds more negative than I really mean to, but I can't seem to find another way to word it. I hope you know what I mean) Also, at this stage when you are placing the object in, as opposed to the dog taking it from you consistently, be aware of where the lips are. You don't want to accidentally force the dog to bite down on his lip, as it will make him wary about the process. I hope that helps a little. Good luck!!

Julie and Jersey


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## nGoldenm (Jan 17, 2007)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Bizzy has given you great advice... and I don't want to step on any toes, but I wanted to share something I learned in trying to teach a formal retrieve. When you are in this first stage, the dog IS going to want to spit out the object (as you've already seen). When Bizzy says to hold the mouth closed and wait 1-2 seconds, I just wanted to add that ideally you want to wait until the dog is no longer trying to spit out the object. The second they hold it nicely, give the release command (give, out, okay, whatever) and treat/praise. You want to make sure the dog knows that you are rewarding a nice hold, and not the struggle, if that makes sense. Also, I would suggest something a little smaller/easier to hold than a tennis ball if you have it. But the most important part, when starting, is that it's an object the dog likes to hold, so if a tennis ball fits that bill best that's fine. A couple other little tips: Holding the mouth closed is a gentle process... only give as much pressure as you need to in order to keep the object in their mouth. It's not going to be the most pleasant thing in the world for the dog, so try not to make it any worse than it has to be. (That sounds more negative than I really mean to, but I can't seem to find another way to word it. I hope you know what I mean) Also, at this stage when you are placing the object in, as opposed to the dog taking it from you consistently, be aware of where the lips are. You don't want to accidentally force the dog to bite down on his lip, as it will make him wary about the process. I hope that helps a little. Good luck!!
> 
> Julie and Jersey


Yeah, I understand exactly what you mean. And you aren't stepping on any toes. The more advice the better! Keep em comin'. As far as it being something that he really likes to hold, that would be a racquet ball. I'm out though. I guess I need to go and get him some more. I really don't understand why he loves racquet balls so much.

I just tried doing a short session of it and it works amazingly well. He really fought me at first sticking that ball in his mouth. But after 2-3 times he caught on. He still spits it out almost immediately, but he is now jumping at the opportunity to grab the ball out of my hand. And he will hold it really nice while I pet and praise him for taking it. He would hold it for just a second while I wasn't petting him so I immediately put my hand down in front of his mouth and said "Out" and he would spit it out directly into my hand. I just need to try and extend this holding time. He has the idea down and I just just need to lengthen it.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Teaching a formal retreive will likely do the trick.

Here's another idea:

As hes bringing it back to you, start moving away from him. Encourage him along the way to "bring it" or whatever you call it. Often, moving away, keeps them coming toward you. Then you start moving slower so he eventually "catches" you as he's coming back with the ball.

If/when he gets back to you with the ball, DON'T REACH FOR IT! Just pet him and praise him and let him hold the ball for several seconds. IMO, a play retrieve is about sharing, so I like to teach my dogs that when they bring stuff to me, I'll share it with them... They get to trophy the item and get love from me! Then I ask for my "give". Delaying the treat often helps avoid the early spit out, which is common in dogs where as soon as they get back to you with the ball, you ask for the give, and the give has been taught with food.

If/when he drops it on the way back in, you run out there and snatch it up and tease the snot outta him with it! Make him think the toy is the best thing ever and he was so silly to drop it out there. Tease like crazy and when he clearly wants the toy again, then throw it and be prepared to move away from him as he's coming in.

If you can tell that usually, after 12 throws, he's likely to crap out and go lie down, then for now, always end the game at 10 throws. The goal is to leave him wanting more.

For the short retrieves, I'd try teasing him like crazy - to the poing where he's trying to get the toy from you - and then do a super short throw. If he doesn't go for it, you beat him to it and tease, etc. like mentioned above. That's how I taught Quiz to retrieve non-toy items. He will literally retrieve ANYTHING I drop or throw...and I did that by making him think that EVERYTHING has the potential to be a toy, just by how I treated the objects.

Hope that helps.


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## nGoldenm (Jan 17, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Teaching a formal retreive will likely do the trick.
> 
> Here's another idea:
> 
> ...


That's some really good advice. Next time we go to the park, I'll give some of those a try as well. And you made me realize that I think that I created the early dropping problem. He didn't used to do it. He used to not want to give it back. So I started working with a clicker and really tasty hot dog pieces to teach "drop it". And that's when the whole early dropping thing started. He started dropping it early in anticipation. At the time I didn't care because he was doing what I thought I was trying to teach him. I just didn't fully define it for him. He thought I was teaching him to drop it on the way back instead of "drop it" at my feet. :doh: Thank you for the advice.


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## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

That's the truth "we" think "we" are teaching them one thing and they are really learning another.

Don't worry Jearsey the more the better. Lily is the first dog I have ever "Trained" to reterive so I'm no expert.


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