# Does anyone have anything to say about Perfect Peace Goldens?



## TimberPup (Apr 29, 2009)

P.S. I have read the puppy buyers checklists and breeder checklists at the top of this forum... I would just love to know if anyone knows Angela personally or of her, or has bought a puppy from her, as I'm new in the Golden Retriever "community". I am just so afraid of picking the WRONG breeder because of past experiences with other breeds, and for friends who have Goldens that seem to be nothing but sick since they've bought them. And aside from that, one of the breeders that was high up on my list turned out to be a TERRIBLE breeder with a bad reputation with people who are actually active with the breed. How could I have made such a mistake? Luckily, I hadn't decided which breeder to go with yet, and that just made me even more paranoid. SO FRUSTRATING!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I don't have any personal experience with this breeder, so I'm replying mostly to bump the thread up. But I do have one piece of advice: make sure you see all clearances for the parents of your prospective dogs, as well as their parents. I'm always wary when a site says "genetically health tested" but offers no specific clearance information. That doesn't mean they don't have them, but it's of paramount importance to check and to see the actual documents, especially since you mention how serious you are about avoiding health problems as carefully as possible.


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## Doolin (Jun 23, 2008)

They seem to be in good standing with the community of breeders that fancy this style. I do not know them personally. I did check the OFA database for clearances. I would check about the elbows and hips on the upcomming stud dog. When they are 2 years old they can receive their final clearances, and these do not take long to be logged into the database. 

The lines in Angela's dogs are pretty good lines, I am just suprised about some of the clearances not being present in OFA.


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## TimberPup (Apr 29, 2009)

Thank you for the input, I can't believe with ALL of the very in depth info about all of the other breeders people have posted, no one seems to have any experience with Perfect Peace. I'm going to check up on the Clearances, though I thought I had seen them all on their website. Also, someone recommended to me that I check the grandparents as well... I just feel so utterly overwhelmed, I think I know what I want then I find I don't even know what I'm looking at at! :doh:


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

It will only benefit you to be extra careful. So as confusing as it is, you're doing a good job by checking and rechecking all the information before you make a decision.

And I should say I'm not sure how many members we have that in area. That could be why people have not said anything.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

Another possible place to check would be local rescues, ask if they knwo anythign about her. Or if they see many of her dogs brought in.


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## Ivrygld (Oct 22, 2005)

Angela is a conscientious and reputable breeder. I have had the opportunity to talk with her several times, and found her to be very knowledgeable and informed about the breed. We are both members of www.englishgoldens.net breeders, which is known for their outstanding approach to education in the golden community. 
Angela contributed to a beautifully written article in the current GRCA news relating to the English Type Golden Retriever.


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## beauteousbeast (Sep 14, 2009)

*Caveat Emptor Perfect Peace*

Coming into discussion late but must point out:
It's hard to understand why Perfect Peace has any higher ranking with fanciers than other English-Euro importers in the West who get their clearances but don't show. 

Beware of those in the cluster of USDA licensed breeders who are capitalizing on the popularity of English cremes. Europe is in trouble economically, like us. Very elite kennels like Glenn Shealag in France are selling off pups to the U.S. when they had a policy against that for years. Want proof? Look at fact that Golden Giggles...sorry, Golden Girls.... has a GS female. 

Did you know that you can communicate directly with some of the European breeders as opposed to paying an arm and a leg from a US importer, if you're looking for a creme pup? Kalocsahazi in Hungary has beautiful, sound dogs-- check them out. I also recommend Skylon in Ontario. Both Skylon and Chrys-Haefen put a lot of puppies out there but they have fabulous breeding programs and they title their dogs.

I will also put in a pitch for the Double B simply because-- choke-- we go back and they have my bloodlines. They have some fabulously beautiful puppies now.

Also weighing in on: be careful about throwing around the term puppy mill. We should reserve that appellation for a real one and call the others commercial breeders.

Many times over in the Forum you will be told to contact the local breed club, and that's very good advice. It's best to buy a puppy from someone who has a good rep for health and is giving back to the breed by titling the dogs. 

If snooty show people put you down, don't do business with them. Lotsa options. Back to Perfect Peace: why all the Jesus stuff on the site? Is that supposed to help sell the dogs? Good grief. Puppy mills, BTW do that. They play religious music and cite lines from scripture and have dogs jam packed in some ramshackle shed. As I said, Caveat Emptor, all.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

beauteousbeast said:


> Coming into discussion late but must point out:
> It's hard to understand why Perfect Peace has any higher ranking with fanciers than other English-Euro importers in the West who get their clearances but don't show.


I do not see where "Perfect Peace has any higher ranking with fanciers than other English-Euro importers in the West who get their clearances but don't show." Are you referring to the post that speaks of "I have had the opportunity to talk with her several times, and found her to be very knowledgeable and informed about the breed. We are both members of www.englishgoldens.net breeders, which is known for their outstanding approach to education in the golden community. Angela contributed to a beautifully written article in the current GRCA news relating to the English Type Golden Retriever."? If so that is one poster's opinion. Do you have any factual first hand knowledge to share with the original poster about Perfect Peace?



beauteousbeast said:


> Very elite kennels like Glenn Shealag in France are selling off pups to the U.S. when they had a policy against that for years. Want proof? Look at fact that Golden Giggles...sorry, Golden Girls.... has a GS female.


Does this make them any less an "elite kennel" in you eyes due to selling pups to the US?



beauteousbeast said:


> I will also put in a pitch for the Double B simply because-- choke-- we go back and they have my bloodlines. They have some fabulously beautiful puppies now.


 
After reading your other post in the "Breeders in Colorado" thread I am not surprised to read this. 




beauteousbeast said:


> If snooty show people put you down, don't do business with them. Lotsa options. Back to Perfect Peace: why all the Jesus stuff on the site? Is that supposed to help sell the dogs? Good grief. Puppy mills, BTW do that. They play religious music and cite lines from scripture and have dogs jam packed in some ramshackle shed. As I said, Caveat Emptor, all.


So because Perfect Peace quotes scripture and plays religious music on their site that makes them a puppy mill/bad breeder? And you have seen "dogs jam packed in some ramshackle shed." at Perfect Peace? 
From your first two posts on the Forum you seem yourself to be a snob and snooty in my opinion.


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## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

beauteousbeast said:


> Coming into Want I also recommend Skylon in Ontario. Both Skylon and Chrys-Haefen put a lot of puppies out there but they have fabulous breeding programs and they title their dogs.
> 
> I think that you'll find a thread or two about both of these kennels mentioned above - & it wasn't good! Just do a search on "Skylon".
> 
> ...


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## coloradogoldenfan (Sep 28, 2009)

We join forums to express our opinions. Much has been personally directed at people by name that members of breed clubs don't like or respect. Yet when someone is honest and direct, as Beauteous Beast appears to have been, look at the result? What do you mean Ambika GR, with the insults you've leveled at her? This seems to prove her point.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

beauteousbeast said:


> Coming into discussion late but must point out:
> It's hard to understand why Perfect Peace has any higher ranking with fanciers than other English-Euro importers in the West who get their clearances but don't show.
> 
> Beware of those in the cluster of USDA licensed breeders who are capitalizing on the popularity of English cremes. Europe is in trouble economically, like us. Very elite kennels like Glenn Shealag in France are selling off pups to the U.S. when they had a policy against that for years. Want proof? Look at fact that Golden Giggles...sorry, Golden Girls.... has a GS female.
> ...





coloradogoldenfan said:


> We join forums to express our opinions. Much has been personally directed at people by name that members of breed clubs don't like or respect. Yet when someone is honest and direct, as Beauteous Beast appears to have been, look at the result? What do you mean Ambika GR, with the insults you've leveled at her? This seems to prove her point.


Well what you refer to as "honest and direct" in beauteousbeast's post you see as "insults" in my post back. I call it expressing my opinion. You may not agree with it and that is fine, that is what forums like this are about. I think many of the points made by beauteousbeast in the above post are wrong based on facts.
And it still is my opinion that their posts were to promote a breeder that is not responsible in my opinion as I stated in the onther thread both you and beauteousbeast have posted in. ( http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=29232&page=3 )
And you have not provided anything to change my mind about either.


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## coloradogoldenfan (Sep 28, 2009)

Isn't it lovely. the breed club people bash commercial breeders and then if you come to the defense of a given breeder who isn't interested in all of the hoopla i.e. rushing around to shows, titling dogs, being able to refer to all the GRCA champs by call name et cetera, you get the ad hominem attack. There is a lot of nasty attacking happening in this forum. I just got e-mails for some thread bashing Golden Girls again. Tell me that those doing the bashing wouldn't give their eye teeth for some of those bloodlines. This Forum is for all who love Goldens. Supposed to be democratic. A friend of mine was posting and then got bashed per the above thread. Even the great River's breeder sold to Golden Girls before they went U.S.D.A. Don't see anyone bashing Teri Anderson here, do we. The point is that all you show people think you walk on water. You look down your noses at people who love the breed, try to do the right thing, and enjoy breeding for money. I am not one of those people. But, who is anyone to sit in judgement of anyone else. Instead of bashing why not educate? I saw one exchange of derision over misuse of titles or something. Get a life! I will come right out and tell you that I have a beautiful puppy out of my bloodlines outcrossed to import lines; she is certainly SQ at least thus far. I have shown and I have titled. I got fed up with the little clique of blonde show people with big blonde American dogs with no necks and too much bone. There you go: how does it feel to be on the receiving end of back biting and the b.s. If you are new to this forum watch out: the show people who justify putting out ten or so litters a year because they show or compete, who like those fat puppy checks as much as anyone else, will try to recruit you to their point of view.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

coloradogoldenfan said:


> . Tell me that those doing the bashing wouldn't give their eye teeth for some of those bloodlines.


 
I wouldn't. 90 pound females? 100 pound males? No thanks.
And their home page reads "Mellow & intelligent; quality CH golden retrievers". Aside from one (international champion) and a Canadian champion that they sold, their dogs have CGC. Not a championship, and a title (actually a certificate and not a "title") which is obtainable even by mixed breeds. They also pull up dogs in their pedigrees that are many generations back (great and great great + grands...) to bolster their own dogs quality. 

No thanks. I'll keep my eye teeth.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

coloradogoldenfan said:


> Isn't it lovely. the breed club people bash commercial breeders and then if you come to the defense of a given breeder who isn't interested in all of the hoopla i.e. rushing around to shows, titling dogs, being able to refer to all the GRCA champs by call name et cetera, you get the ad hominem attack. There is a lot of nasty attacking happening in this forum. I just got e-mails for some thread bashing Golden Girls again. Tell me that those doing the bashing wouldn't give their eye teeth for some of those bloodlines. This Forum is for all who love Goldens. Supposed to be democratic. A friend of mine was posting and then got bashed per the above thread. Even the great River's breeder sold to Golden Girls before they went U.S.D.A. Don't see anyone bashing Teri Anderson here, do we. The point is that all you show people think you walk on water. You look down your noses at people who love the breed, try to do the right thing, and enjoy breeding for money. I am not one of those people. But, who is anyone to sit in judgement of anyone else. Instead of bashing why not educate? I saw one exchange of derision over misuse of titles or something. Get a life! I will come right out and tell you that I have a beautiful puppy out of my bloodlines outcrossed to import lines; she is certainly SQ at least thus far. I have shown and I have titled. I got fed up with the little clique of blonde show people with big blonde American dogs with no necks and too much bone. There you go: how does it feel to be on the receiving end of back biting and the b.s. If you are new to this forum watch out: the show people who justify putting out ten or so litters a year because they show or compete, who like those fat puppy checks as much as anyone else, will try to recruit you to their point of view.


Again a lot of words but nothing backed up by any facts. I will post part of my reply here from the other thread.
_"I am glad to hear your experience with Double B Ranch is/was a good one. But I would still not recommend them to someone looking for a pup. With the clearances alone they do not do elbows, they do eyes only one time (they need to be done every year) and the hearts are cleared by a general practioner vet which is not sufficient. It should be done by a specialist or a board certified cardiologist. On their website they have dogs listed with clearances that belong to other dogs and no clearances for that dog can be found in the database (Locker, Switch, Cat). 
So if you think this is bashing, so be it. I happen to feel it is nothing more than education and letting folks know that there are those out there that know what should be done, present themselves as doing what should be done, but are not doing what should be done."_ 

These are facts taken directly from the OFA and CERF databases. How is this bashing or looking down my nose on anyone? 
How does this show these breeders are "people who love the breed, try to do the right thing,"?
As you stated, "Instead of bashing why not educate?" I am ALWAYS open to eduaction and learning. 
I have a lot of trouble understanding exactly what you are trying to attack and what you are trying to justify.


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## buckeyegoldenmom (Oct 5, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> Again a lot of words but nothing backed up by any facts. I will post part of my reply here from the other thread.
> _"I am glad to hear your experience with Double B Ranch is/was a good one. But I would still not recommend them to someone looking for a pup. With the clearances alone they do not do elbows, they do eyes only one time (they need to be done every year) and the hearts are cleared by a general practioner vet which is not sufficient. It should be done by a specialist or a board certified cardiologist. On their website they have dogs listed with clearances that belong to other dogs and no clearances for that dog can be found in the database (Locker, Switch, Cat).
> So if you think this is bashing, so be it. I happen to feel it is nothing more than education and letting folks know that there are those out there that know what should be done, present themselves as doing what should be done, but are not doing what should be done."_
> 
> ...



Hank, I don't think you are bashing anyone, by any sense. You have stated facts on why you would not recommend a specific breeder. That is why people come to this forum and ask questions. They do not want only the "yes" answers. We want someone to tell us what we need to look for and what questions we need to ask. That is how you educate the public. When I come to this type forum and ask questions...it is to gain information...from breeders and others with sound knowledge on the golden retriever breed. I have learned so much from this forum on choosing a healthy,sound golden retriever puppy.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Well it appears from some correspondence I have recieved that my posts on GRF may have been misinterpreted. And from my years in a customer service industry I always remeber that for every negative you get there are at least ten you do not hear. So I will attempt to clarify them here. If there are still any questions please feel free to contact me either here publicly or privately and I will attempt to make it clearer.

First I have been told I am one "very opinionated and arrogant son of a gun". Guilty? "U Betcha" I am and **** proud of it! Especially when it comes to Golden Retrievers!

I have been accused of "bashing people who are trying to learn". Not guilty! I have been accused of this on a few occassions but each time I have requested the poster/accuser to point out exactly where I have done so, none have been able to do so. In most of these incidences I have written it off as the person felt the best defense was an agressive offense to take the spotlight off themselves and direct on to others. 

In a similar light I have been accused of "Looking down your nose at people doing their best, snooping around on the databases trying to catch people lying". Part one I plead not guilty. I have a rather large nose and if I was to attempt to look down it at anyone I would probably not even see them. However to part two I again proudly plead "U betcha" I am guilty!! Anyone who posts information saying they do one thing and the proof that they do not is in the public domain is extremely foolish and brazen. They are blatently lying trying to decieve a trusting and unknowing general public. I find it extremely revolting that these lying, deceitful, hypocritical, money hungry low life breeders think they can get away with it and then get all high and mightly when they are caught and called out on it. (Okay this can be referred to as a BASH I guess, so I guess I can change my plea to "Nolo Contendere" :doh 

And lastly I have been called a "Mr. Fancy-pants Fancier" . If they saw the way I dressed they would not use this term. I am more of a "Mr. Worn-and-tattered-blue-jeans Fancier" kind of guy to be perfectly honest. So please get your facts straight for any fututre correspondence.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> Well it appears from some correspondence I have recieved that my posts on GRF may have been misinterpreted. And from my years in a customer service industry I always remeber that for every negative you get there are at least ten you do not hear. So I will attempt to clarify them here. If there are still any questions please feel free to contact me either here publicly or privately and I will attempt to make it clearer.
> 
> First I have been told I am one "very opinionated and arrogant son of a gun". Quilty? "U Betcha" I am and **** proud of it! Especially when it comes to Golden Retrievers!
> 
> ...


 
:appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl:


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

This is a bizarre thread. Hank is well known around here as a level-headed, passionate advocate for the breed, and he's absolutely right that for every nasty comment leveled at him, there are ten (maybe a hundred) of us who find his expertise invaluable.

Also, everything Hank has said in this thread is pretty much a textbook example of good breeder ethics, as outlined in the GRCA's ethical guidelines for breeders. There's a reason the breed parent club points even pet owners towards hobby breeders over commercial breeders. Dog breeding is one industry in which the economics of scale substantially work against the quality of the "product." 

When somebody asks us "is this breeder good," we look at their site and the public information about their dogs and hold them to a very simple set of standards, all of which are posted in the GRCA's ethics rules or guide to choosing a reputable breeder: 

hips done after two years and certified by OFA and/or PennHIP
elbows done after two years and certified by OFA (board-certified radiologist is OK, but OFA is ideal)
eyes cleared every year by a board-certified ophthalmologist
heart cleared by a board-certified cardiologist
showing dogs for conformation or working ability or both
early handling
taking back/helping place dogs instead of letting them go to shelters
breeding after two years
breeding within standard
breeding for temperament
caring about their puppies' placement

Breeding too many litters prevents a breeder from engaging in the necessary early handling and pre-training, and it makes it impossible for the breeder to take back any and every dog whose family can't (or won't) take care of it. It also makes it impractical for the breeder to spend enough time vetting every family their dogs go to.

It's also possible to go on offa.org and check if a breeder's claims of clearances are properly posted there. You can't get mad at Hank for doing his homework and trusting offa.org rather than a breeder's website's claims of "hips OK."

So if you think Hank (or any of us) is looking down his nose at you for a failure to conform to all the ethical standards of being an excellent breeder, then prove that you do or get out of the kitchen. This isn't personal bashing; this is a defense of the kind of breeding practices that protect the breed and the dogs we care a great deal about.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I have to chime in and say that Hank's extreme patience with my bazillion novice questions about how to show in obedience and how to find a healthy, best-friend pup is worthy of applause. He actually let me pester him nonstop for a solid year, and I appreciate his willingness to reach out to inexperienced people with support and answers!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am confused by PP's "trained" puppy page.
http://www.perfectpeacegoldens.com/professionalpuppytraining.htm


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## lperagallo (Dec 3, 2009)

What exactly confuses you about that page? They are offering a professional puppy training program. There are professional trainers in the same town that Perfect Peace is located and for a fee you can have your puppy trained.

What else do you want to know?

Lou


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I am by no means a pure positive trainer, but that sure doesn't sound like a program I'd be comfortable sending my 8 week old puppy off to (well, I wouldn't be sending my puppy anywhere anyway, but still...)


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

It's all marketing. 

I wonder how much they charge to send a puppy off to be trained prior to sale? (I'm betting they are padding the price of the training in order to make more profit...) And how much time the new owners will get in order to learn what the puppy has learned and how to follow through with the training...

Seems to me it's much more effective, and cost efficient, for a new owner to enroll in a Puppy Kindergarten class and learn with the puppy - an important bonding time.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

lperagallo said:


> What exactly confuses you about that page? They are offering a professional puppy training program. There are professional trainers in the same town that Perfect Peace is located and for a fee you can have your puppy trained.
> 
> What else do you want to know?
> 
> Lou


Welcome! I assume you're affiliated with the breeder in question, since you've reawakened an old thread.

Do you sell puppies who've been through the aforementioned training program? If so, why sell puppies at/after 1 year? What do you offer for people who are interested in purchasing a puppy at 1 year +?

Puppy kindergarten is a great experience for someone with a young dog. Allowing someone to engage in training with your dog before you get him is interesting, but what's the goal here?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Seems to me it's much more effective, and cost efficient, for a new owner to enroll in a Puppy Kindergarten class and learn with the puppy - an important bonding time.


Yeah, but that would require the new owner to take an active role in the dog's life. It's so much easier to just send the pup off and let other people hold him upside down on the ground until he gives up.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I'm not at all against choosing an older dog with training when you are a novice owner; my first dog Joplin came from a hobby breeder in our area from whom we had a healthy family pet golden, and had completed his CD with his breeder. It was an amazing experience to have a first golden of my very own with such lovely training. They had planned to keep him, but then his head turned out a bit too "girly" for their breeding program, so I lucked out with a best friend who went on to live to be 15 1/2. I am in no way against placing trained dogs.

However, on this website, I was confused that the CGC test would be given at 4 1/2 months old. All of our dogs here do CGC between 6 and 8 months, but 4 months seems pretty young. Then, when I went back and really studied the text, I saw it was the new STARR puppy test that is given. To use the actual phrase "Canine Good Citizen" in the heading for that section conjured up the Canine Good Citizen test for me. 

From 2 to 4 1/2 months is a time for a puppy to bond with a family, be extremely well socialized, become housebroken, play,and explore the world as well as have training. Will these pups come home housebroken having lovingly learned "no bite" etc, met children, people in wheelchairs, umbrellas and kitties? I am just not clear how the pups live at the trainers. In the house? In kennels?


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## Traz (Jan 19, 2009)

I would check a whole lot closer about clearances. Hips, elbow, eyes, heart & even thyroid. Is the breeder in good standing with AKC & are all the clearances listed in the database. I saw something that said they sent xrays to England, were they given a rating here?
While it looks as those there may be some champion dogs in the lines, do any of her dogs she is breeding have points? 
I would check out things further...before you see any of the cute puppies. Seeing cute puppies can cloud your judgement, & what puppy isn't cute.
I find it a little odd that no one a a forum this size knows anything about them. That is not to say it isn't good. I would check carefully.
Good luck in your search.


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## lperagallo (Dec 3, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Welcome! I assume you're affiliated with the breeder in question, since you've reawakened an old thread.
> 
> Do you sell puppies who've been through the aforementioned training program? If so, why sell puppies at/after 1 year? What do you offer for people who are interested in purchasing a puppy at 1 year +?
> 
> Puppy kindergarten is a great experience for someone with a young dog. Allowing someone to engage in training with your dog before you get him is interesting, but what's the goal here?


Well, that was a heck of a greeting! I am not a breeder, nor am I affilated with one. I asked the Poster what they were confused about in the training program being offered. Sorry I've awakened a post made in October that wasn't responded to. I thought this forum was to help people, not criticize and come out making accusations at a new member.

I do not sell puppies. BUT I assume that any breeder that keeps a potential breeding dog that doesn't work out would most likely sell it to a loving home.

The goal there is to provide a training service that someone might want to take advantage of. Doesn't seem like anything more than turnkey training program. I'm not saying I agree with it as I believe training is as much about training teh owner than dog.

Lou


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## lperagallo (Dec 3, 2009)

Traz said:


> I would check a whole lot closer about clearances. Hips, elbow, eyes, heart & even thyroid. Is the breeder in good standing with AKC & are all the clearances listed in the database. I saw something that said they sent xrays to England, were they given a rating here?
> While it looks as those there may be some champion dogs in the lines, do any of her dogs she is breeding have points?
> I would check out things further...before you see any of the cute puppies. Seeing cute puppies can cloud your judgement, & what puppy isn't cute.
> I find it a little odd that no one a a forum this size knows anything about them. That is not to say it isn't good. I would check carefully.
> Good luck in your search.


Traz,

I did do some research. All their ratings were done here for their dogs. They use OFA on teh dogs they own. They have some dogs that they have bred from Europe so maybe that's where you saw the overseas testing. They are in good standing with teh AKC. The clearances are all listed in K9data.com.

I too was surprised that there isn't much discussion about them here. I did find a Yahoo group of them with another breeder and there was a lot of positive feedback.

Thanks for your response,
Lou


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

lperagallo said:


> Well, that was a heck of a greeting! I am not a breeder, nor am I affilated with one. I asked the Poster what they were confused about in the training program being offered. Sorry I've awakened a post made in October that wasn't responded to. I thought this forum was to help people, not criticize and come out making accusations at a new member.
> 
> I do not sell puppies. BUT I assume that any breeder that keeps a potential breeding dog that doesn't work out would most likely sell it to a loving home.
> 
> ...


Sorry - but when somebody signs up and logs on with what appears to be the sole intent of defending a breeder and shows no other interest in the forum, you can understand why it seems you have something to do with PP. You also asked what else the person would want to know, so you seemed to have direct info on the breeder. You can see why I thought you were somehow affiliated with Perfect Peace.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

lperagallo said:


> I did do some research. All their ratings were done here for their dogs. They use OFA on teh dogs they own. They have some dogs that they have bred from Europe so maybe that's where you saw the overseas testing. They are in good standing with teh AKC. The clearances are all listed in K9data.com.


Can you post some of that info? I had trouble even finding full call names on some of the dogs to look them up, and on the dogs I did see on k9data, they seemed to lack some clearances, like elbows.


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## lperagallo (Dec 3, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Can you post some of that info? I had trouble even finding full call names on some of the dogs to look them up, and on the dogs I did see on k9data, they seemed to lack some clearances, like elbows.


What dogs are you looking for. I looked up Hope and Flinga as they were the parents of teh litter I was researching.

Hope's data is here: http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=244854

Flinga's here: http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=243754

They aren't very hard to find if you know some information about them.

I hope the nay sayers are pleased now.

Lou


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## TimberPup (Apr 29, 2009)

*Surprised*

Hey there, 

I was orriginally the one who started this thread when I was looking for a breeder several months ago, and I have to say, I am surprised and a bit dissapointed in what I have read in recent posts. I found the Golden Retriever forum as I wanted to make sure to take the proper steps in finding a dog as I have never purchased a Golden before. I was extremely pleased to find that a comunity such as this existed, and it helped me, immensely, in my search for a breeder. It was with the guidance and advice from very helpful members of this forum that I was able to find the breeder that I would eventually buy my puppy from. I did not skip any steps, I did recieve ALL clearances on the prospective parents, and not one red flag that this forum has ferverently taught me to look for, was raised. I did end up going with Perfect Peace, and Angela has been absolutley honest and open, even willing to refer me to other reputable breeders. I checked up with references and the akc and she is in good standing with everyone I have spoken to. Now I am not an expert by any means on Golden Retrievers or their breeders, but I don't think it is appropriate to be bashing other professionals who as far as you know are fully reputable. If you have such doubts, perhaps it is appropriate for you to check in yourself rather than put negative press out there for a breeder you have never even heard of, and are just making offhanded assumptions about. That is my beef and I just really felt that I had to post something since I seem to be the only person who has delt with them directly. If anyone has any questions whatsoever about my experiences, please PM me and I am more than willing to share and even refer you to others who I have spoken to who refered me to her. 

Thank you,
Lauren


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

If you actually read the posts in this thread, very little was said about Perfect Peace. Anything negative about any of the kennels named here was regarding either not doing clearances, or, encouraging potential buyers to make sure that they HAVE COPIES IN HAND. 

I stand by anything that I said, and support Hank's statements as well.

Good luck with your new puppy.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

TimberPup, I am thrilled you have found a breeder/pup. I am sorry your thread took some twists and unplanned turns but am thrilled it all has worked out for you. Have you gotten your pup yet if not when do you expect to. What is/will be the name. Please share all with us. Pictures?


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## teddy128 (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks for the update!


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## slkuta (Feb 14, 2009)

Congratulations on finding your breeder, I can't wait to see pictures of your new puppy!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

lperagallo said:


> What dogs are you looking for. I looked up Hope and Flinga as they were the parents of teh litter I was researching.


Honor was one, but I was able to find him eventually on k9data.

Freedom has no elbow certs, but does not appear to be a breeding dog at this point. Perhaps he failed and they chose not to list it?

Pride doesn't have an AKC registration number listed on k9data, nor do his parents. He appears to have been bred at about a year old and then died at 2 1/2. I cannot find him on offa.org by searching with his name, though on k9data, full clearances are claimed.

Promise also appears to lack an AKC registration number and also does not appear on offa.org, though again, on k9data, clearances look complete.

Glory has no elbow cert listed on offa.org and the CERF cert is from 2006, even though she was bred in 08 and 09.

Peace and Faith have no elbow certs listed on offa.org, though k9data lists no offspring for either, so again, maybe they didn't pass muster.



lperagallo said:


> Hope's data is here: http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=244854


Hope has all four standard certs, but it looks like the breeder might not be religious about yearly eye clearances. I imagine they'll have her checked out again before breeding.



lperagallo said:


> Flinga's here: http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=243754


According to k9data, this dog was bred at less than a year old (about 10 months). Even though his clearances are complete now, that doesn't speak to responsibility on the breeder's part or adherence to the GRCA code of ethics. Hip and elbow certifications aren't given by OFA to animals under 24 months, so even if his prelims were good, the dog was not bred in compliance with the basic guidelines.

It doesn't seem like this breeder is horrible, and it's nice to see complete certs on all the dogs who are actually bred. The biggest red flag I can see is the _very_ early breeding of Flinga and Pride and the apparent lack of registration for Pride and Promise. Perhaps that information is simply missing, though.

Their site says breeding dogs under 18 months (as Flinga apparently was) is unacceptable, but they do say it's OK to breed between 18 and 24 months, even though they say breeding without clearances is unacceptable. That's a contradiction, and I don't understand why they have both claims on their site. I don't know if they've become more responsible over time or what, but it's something I'd be concerned about. I'd want to hear exactly what the thinking was (or if it was an accident). 

Many great breeders have accidental breedings or violate some aspect of standard breeding guidelines for one reason or another. Still, I'd expect that breeder to be very clear with me about those decisions.


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## Graciesav (Aug 2, 2010)

I recently got a puppy from Perfect Peace Goldens and I could not be happier. Angela was a joy to work with. The puppy is now almost 3 months old and is healthy and happy. 
During the entire adoption process, Angela was available and informative. She has a puppy blog site so you could keep track of the puppies' progress. We had to ship the puppy to Georgia and Angela took care of all the arrangements and kept me up to date during the process. She is available after the adoption and returns phone calls and e-mails in a timely fashion.
She insists that you take the puppy to the vet within 7 days of receiving the puppy. My vet did a complete physical on him and he was given a clean bill of health. 
We have been so happy with Perfect Peace Goldens that we are considering getting a female from Angela next summer. Hope this helps.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

And I hope that your very young puppy is as healthy into his older years as he seems to be now. Many genetic health issues (the ones that we do health clearances for and that I would hope that you saw complete documentation for both parents ) often do not appear until adulthood.


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## goldenflyer (Aug 4, 2010)

Gracie or Timber, please PM me if you get the chance. I am currently working with Perfect Peace to possibly bring home a puppy but I have no real references for them. I would love any information you may be able to provide. Thanks!


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

If you can look thru the thread towards the end you will see there are several people that tell you to see the clearances on all the dogs that you are interested in at Perfect Peace, look at the Puppy Finder Fact Checker at the top of the forum on what to look for, and look at the www.grca.org at the puppy referral page. There is alot of good information in this thread if you look at it. Like at the posts starting at 34. A member asks about particular dogs and the clearances. And then a member gives what they could find online about the dogs. This is one reason you should see the clearances upfront before you ever pick a pup or give any money to a breeder. IF they wont show them to you, then walk away. A good breeder doesnt have any problem showing the clearances to you if they are done.


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## goldenflyer (Aug 4, 2010)

BeauShel, I feel like I've done a fair amount of research on the breeder and all the health clearances are posted on the OFA website and are current. I am an out-of-state buyer who is just hesitant/nervous about the whole process. I was hoping to find some contacts or references who have dealth with this breeder personally to ask more specific questions.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Goldenflyer*

Goldenflyer

Gracie or TImber will have to email you because you only have a few posts and you need 15 posts in order to receive a private msg. or pm.

Good luck with your puppy and our Tonka, a Samoyed, came from a Christian breeder and he is AMAZING>


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## Graciesav (Aug 2, 2010)

*Clearances*

In reply to Pointgold, I am well aware of the problems arising in adult dogs as I recently lost both of my American Goldens in the last 7 months due to cancer. I saw clearances on both dogs. Each puppy came with heart, joint, and eye reports. Nothing is for certain.
In regards to Perfect Peace Goldens, if you go on to the web site, Angela has posted warnings in what to look for in breeders. She also has clearances for her dogs posted on her web site. I researched her thoroughly and could not find any negative reviews on her or her kennel. I'm not saying that there isn't something negative there, it's just that I couldn't find anything.
And yes, I saw complete documentation on both parents.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Graciesav said:


> In reply to Pointgold, I am well aware of the problems arising in adult dogs as I recently lost both of my American Goldens in the last 7 months due to cancer. I saw clearances on both dogs. Each puppy came with heart, joint, and eye reports. Nothing is for certain.
> In regards to Perfect Peace Goldens, if you go on to the web site, Angela has posted warnings in what to look for in breeders. She also has clearances for her dogs posted on her web site. I researched her thoroughly and could not find any negative reviews on her or her kennel. I'm not saying that there isn't something negative there, it's just that I couldn't find anything.
> And yes, I saw complete documentation on both parents.


Good for you. I hope that you are aware that health concerns exist in both "American Goldens" and "English" (or whatever other name du jour is being used) Goldens. That should be clarified for anyone looking at this thread who is looking for a puppy. Neither is healthier than another...it is the individual breeding and ancestral history of each that matters. I do wonder, though, what "heart, joint and eye reports" the puppies had that you refer to?


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## jennybird (Aug 13, 2010)

I feel the same way about finding a breeder~overwhelmed! I'm currently on the waiting list for 'dichi goldens' in portage wisconsin; we've already made a visit and were very impressed. I got my first golden, Chester, from a local backyard breeder (without doing any breeder research), and he just passed away at only 4. Looking back, I think his immune system was not good and I should have been more careful about the breeder, so my advice is, read as much as you can about finding a reputable breeder (lots of books and internet advice to read), and finding someone who already adopted from them is a plus. Good luck!


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

jennybird said:


> I feel the same way about finding a breeder~overwhelmed! I'm currently on the waiting list for 'dichi goldens' in portage wisconsin; we've already made a visit and were very impressed. I got my first golden, Chester, from a local backyard breeder (without doing any breeder research), and he just passed away at only 4. Looking back, I think his immune system was not good and I should have been more careful about the breeder, so my advice is, read as much as you can about finding a reputable breeder (lots of books and internet advice to read), and finding someone who already adopted from them is a plus. Good luck!


I have a dichi golden and while I cannot say positive things about the breeders as people, I LOVE LOVE LOVE Flora and her personality, and I wish you all the best with your future pup.


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## The Trio (Apr 24, 2010)

If anyone want to know a little about Perfect Peace goldens they can contact me. I don't know her personnally, but I have heard a lot of things about Perfect peace.


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## lperagallo (Dec 3, 2009)

I purchased two dogs from Angela last December. They are wonderful dogs and other than a long drive to get the dogs, I am very satisfied. I just neutered the dogs and had their hips x rayed. Our vet said that these were the best hips see has seen on a golden in years. The temperament of the dogs is wonderful and they are very calm for young goldens. They play hard with each other, but are very calm around people. They were easy to train and other then digging holes and eating (devouring) mulch, they are great dogs.

They are expensive but worth the money. 

Lou


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## Graciesav (Aug 2, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> Good for you. I hope that you are aware that health concerns exist in both "American Goldens" and "English" (or whatever other name du jour is being used) Goldens. That should be clarified for anyone looking at this thread who is looking for a puppy. Neither is healthier than another...it is the individual breeding and ancestral history of each that matters. I do wonder, though, what "heart, joint and eye reports" the puppies had that you refer to?


I am well aware that English Goldens have health issues as well, they are after all goldens. I discussed this in length with Angela and was given the same info as you are giving.
As far as heart, joint, and eye reports on my previous dogs, I meant to say, the breeder sent me medical reports on the puppies done by the vets. 
I did my homework when looking for a breeder. I went through tons of web sites and reviews and complaints. I feel confident that I made the right decision and if I didn't, then I will certainly let everyone know via this site.
As I am new to this forum, may I ask you a question? Are you a breeder? At this point, I am going to assume that you are as I looked up a Pointgold kennel on the internet. Just curious.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

lperagallo said:


> I purchased two dogs from Angela last December. They are wonderful dogs and other than a long drive to get the dogs, I am very satisfied. I just neutered the dogs and had their hips x rayed. Our vet said that these were the best hips see has seen on a golden in years. The temperament of the dogs is wonderful and they are very calm for young goldens. They play hard with each other, but are very calm around people. They were easy to train and other then digging holes and eating (devouring) mulch, they are great dogs.
> 
> They are expensive but worth the money.
> 
> Lou


I am thrilled your dogs are doing well. Curious why the vet did xrays on the hips at this point, the dogs will be growing and the dogs need to be closer to two years of age to get a true idea for what they will be. I am hoping the vet did this only because the dogs were being sedated for the neutering and not to actually evaluate the hips. OFA will not give a final rating on hips unless the xrays are done after the dog is two years of age. 

I would love to see pictures of your boys as I do not rhink I have seen any yet. They must be getting big by now.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Graciesav said:


> As far as heart, joint, and eye reports on my previous dogs, I meant to say, the breeder sent me medical reports on the puppies done by the vets.


You are aware these tests need to be done on the pups' sire and dam (parents) not the pups?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

lperagallo said:


> I purchased two dogs from Angela last December. They are wonderful dogs and other than a long drive to get the dogs, I am very satisfied. I just neutered the dogs and had their hips x rayed. Our vet said that these were the best hips see has seen on a golden in years. The temperament of the dogs is wonderful and they are very calm for young goldens. They play hard with each other, but are very calm around people. They were easy to train and other then digging holes and eating (devouring) mulch, they are great dogs.
> 
> They are expensive but worth the money.
> 
> Lou


Why were the hips x-rayed? That's not standard protocol for a neutering. Did you have some concerns?

While an x-ray at six months might be necessary in the event of a problem, it wouldn't generally be considered authoritative about the quality of the joint, since the dog hasn't matured. Also, a vet's look at an x-ray for problems is not the same thing as a certification by OFA or PennHIP.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> You are aware these tests need to be done on the pups' sire and dam (parents) not the pups?


Thanks for pointing that out.

Also, clearances on the parents are the bare minimum. Preferably, you'd want to see complete clearances as far back as possible.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Why were the hips x-rayed? That's not standard protocol for a neutering. Did you have some concerns?
> 
> While an x-ray at six months might be necessary in the event of a problem, it wouldn't generally be considered authoritative about the quality of the joint, since the dog hasn't matured. Also, a vet's look at an x-ray for problems is not the same thing as a certification by OFA or PennHIP.


I always recommend a hip x-ray on large breed dogs when they are being neutered/spayed (usually at 6 months). Unfortunately it's rare to have a puppy with OFA parents in our clinic and the sooner we find out there is a problem (if there is one) the better. If the hips look questionable, we refer to an orthopedic specialist for further evaluation. While an x-ray at six months isn't the final word on hips, horrid hips can and do show up on x-rays at this age. Both my younger dogs were x-rayed at the 5-6 month range just to check.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Graciesav said:


> I am well aware that English Goldens have health issues as well, they are after all goldens. I discussed this in length with Angela and was given the same info as you are giving.
> As far as heart, joint, and eye reports on my previous dogs, I meant to say, the breeder sent me medical reports on the puppies done by the vets.
> I did my homework when looking for a breeder. I went through tons of web sites and reviews and complaints. I feel confident that I made the right decision and if I didn't, then I will certainly let everyone know via this site.
> As I am new to this forum, may I ask you a question? Are you a breeder? At this point, I am going to assume that you are as I looked up a Pointgold kennel on the internet. Just curious.


 
I am. However, Pointgold is my screen name, not my kennel name.


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## Goldensrfun (Apr 23, 2011)

Angela is a VERY reputable breeder. Her dogs are outstanding, and she is very protective of her breeding. She gets 4 clearances from University Veterinary Hospitals. She raises the puppies with love and much care.


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## The Trio (Apr 24, 2010)

I would never endorse or recommend someone purchasing a Perfect Peace Golden. I am from Nebraska and I have heard complaints about them. Say what you want, but they are making a fortune off of "the English type". They even have that one of their breeding females has Elbow dysplasia!!! 
*Perfect Peace To Live By Faith*

!!! Hello!!! She's even had puppies! They are breeding without clearances and bad clearances. STAY Away from this breeder!!!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

So why living in the good old USA, is this breeder a member of the GRCC? I noticed interspersed with the 2 bitches' with unilateral elbow dysplasia papers, there are dogs on this site with OFA hips and OVC elbows and just plain hip(OFA clearances) only. Is the argument to be made that since the elbows are unilateral, it must be an injury?


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## Penny10 (Sep 17, 2011)

I don't recommend Double B - their website states "AKC registration" but they are not able to provide the registration papers for their puppies.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

Penny10 said:


> I don't recommend Double B - their website states "AKC registration" but they are not able to provide the registration papers for their puppies.


 
They probably bought a puppy/dog from a breeder with limited registration and breed it without permission. Maybe they have trouble with the AKC. You can never do enough to prevent the puppy buyer with bad intentions. I just don't know why if people want to go into the breeding business that they can't do it right and with respect to the dogs.


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## Goldensrfun (Apr 23, 2011)

Angela is a very responsible breeder. We have two of her dogs, and have referred others for puppies. She takes her dogs to University Veterinary Centers for their clearances. Our dogs are healthy, loving and very smart. I would love to have another puppy from her someday in a heartbeat!

If you have questions, call her to talk to her in person.


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## rocketman (Oct 20, 2009)

Perfect Peace has definitely bred dogs without their clearances. She has bred dogs less than 2 years of age. Angela has a tendency to use religion too much. Her foundation dog and bitch were not registered by AKC, CKC or UKC. GRCA doesn't do any checking on members, just takes their money and trusts that the members are honest. Run Forrest run.


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## rocketman (Oct 20, 2009)

Angela is all about the money! No clearances, no registration, no problem. English shouldn't be any more expensive than American unless one is hawking the "rare, creme English. She has been known to break contracts as well.


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## rocketman (Oct 20, 2009)

Ask her about Parvo wiping out a litter too.


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## lisa0721 (May 7, 2013)

*Contracts*



rocketman said:


> Angela is all about the money! No clearances, no registration, no problem. English shouldn't be any more expensive than American unless one is hawking the "rare, creme English. She has been known to break contracts as well.


Really? For what reason?

I'm willing to pay more for an English cream in an effort to see if the incidence of hemangiosarcoma in recent American dams and sires is any less prevalent (as it's reported to be by unbiased professional resources).

A dog to love, one way or the other. Nothing to lose, really.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

lisa0721 said:


> Really? For what reason?
> 
> I'm willing to pay more for an English cream in an effort to see if the incidence of hemangiosarcoma in recent American dams and sires is any less prevalent (as it's reported to be by unbiased professional resources).
> 
> A dog to love, one way or the other. Nothing to lose, really.


Absolutely untrue about cancer.... Show me the veterinary journals that support this... I haven't read them.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

lisa0721 said:


> Really? For what reason?
> 
> I'm willing to pay more for an English cream in an effort to see if the incidence of hemangiosarcoma in recent American dams and sires is any less prevalent (as it's reported to be by unbiased professional resources).
> 
> A dog to love, one way or the other. Nothing to lose, really.


Sorry, I can't follow your post. Please let show us this "unbiased professional resource" that shows that "the incidence of hemangiosarcoma in recent American dams and sires" is higher or lower than in dogs from the UK (or those bred to the KC standard who come from eastern Europe).


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

lisa0721 said:


> Really? For what reason?
> 
> I'm willing to pay more for an English cream in an effort to see if the incidence of hemangiosarcoma in recent American dams and sires is any less prevalent (as it's reported to be by unbiased professional resources).
> 
> A dog to love, one way or the other. Nothing to lose, really.


English-line dogs are no healthier than American-line dogs as a population. No quality, controlled studies exist to support such a conclusion. Just because someone puts this information on their website does not make it true. Anecdotal reports are not a peer reviewed study. The breeders who make these claims are only saying this to market a product-their puppies. What is worse, is that they often make these claims rather than proving their dogs in any venue.

Your best bet for getting a healthy long lived Golden is to buy from a breeder who tests for health issues, who proves the trainability, temperaments, and sound structure of their dogs through participation in conformation, obedience tests, or hunt tests etc., and who has proven health and longevity in their bloodlines. That is true whether the dog comes from an American, English, or blended pedigree.

Your chances of getting a sick or unsound dog will actually increase if you purchase a puppy from someone whose only breeding objective is to pump out puppies. Breeders should be proving their dogs in some venue so that there is an objective assessment by qualified experts. The breeders who do not usually have haphazard pedigrees which lacking a history of either longevity or health information, or both.

I will also tell you that an English Crème is simply a marketing gimmick. There are plenty of English breeders on the list and I know that they will agree that the dogs in England also vary in color and they are not all crème.


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## Denlie (Nov 3, 2011)

I wish that people would listen to the advice given on this forum. I'm not an active poster; more of a lurker. 

I didn't know how to begin looking for a puppy; so I just started with a Google search. I've had rescue dogs, but always wanted a Golden. I found a breeder and I was so excited.

She was a very nice lady. I was impressed that they did "clearances" and that both parents were on her property. I was on a list for an up-coming litter. 

Then I started researching because it's been a long time since I had a puppy; reading books and surfing on the internet. GRF was (luckily) one of my first stops. Boy did that open my eyes!! I lost my deposit, but felt that it was a good move. 

Right now, I would have a $2500 "English Creme" golden with very few clearances on the pedigree. Certainly, I would have loved that dog. But I would be VERY nervous about the future health of my dog.

Instead, I saved my money and did more research into breeders. Asking occasional questions, but doing A LOT of reading. After about a year, I found a breeder through my local GRCA and with the help of this forum. And strangely, I only spent $900 on Gracie. So I bought lots of toys. 

My breeder is awesome. They meet and exceed their responsibilities of the GRCA. They have been a great resource for the past 18 months.

There are no guarentees in life. But I was going to make sure that we were getting a puppy that had the best chance of having a long life with us. And for that, I can thank the members of this forum.


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## Denlie (Nov 3, 2011)

That being said; I wish the best of luck to everyone looking for a puppy.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Denlie said:


> I wish that people would listen to the advice given on this forum. I'm not an active poster; more of a lurker.
> 
> I didn't know how to begin looking for a puppy; so I just started with a Google search. I've had rescue dogs, but always wanted a Golden. I found a breeder and I was so excited.
> 
> ...


Wonderful post. I'm so glad you have found the dog of your dreams. Your dogs breeder is great! 

It is hard for people out in the public, when first searching for a puppy. They think the first thing they see is the greatest and end up paying a lot for something with no guarantee.

This was me about 9 years ago. My aunt's dog was bred to some bitch we didn't know. I had always wanted a dog and begged my parents to let me get a puppy from that litter. As time grew on, I learned that she was not structurally sound to the breed standard. I'm so glad I've learned all of this with my first dog, have met great people at dog shows, and now know what to look for in pedigrees and clearances. 

I just wish more people would take the time to research online and really figure out what they need to do in order to find the right breeder!


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## lisa0721 (May 7, 2013)

*English*



hvgoldens4 said:


> English-line dogs are no healthier than American-line dogs as a population. No quality, controlled studies exist to support such a conclusion. Just because someone puts this information on their website does not make it true. Anecdotal reports are not a peer reviewed study. The breeders who make these claims are only saying this to market a product-their puppies. What is worse, is that they often make these claims rather than proving their dogs in any venue.
> 
> Your best bet for getting a healthy long lived Golden is to buy from a breeder who tests for health issues, who proves the trainability, temperaments, and sound structure of their dogs through participation in conformation, obedience tests, or hunt tests etc., and who has proven health and longevity in their bloodlines. That is true whether the dog comes from an American, English, or blended pedigree.
> 
> ...


I found a breeder who breeds English Crème's and the color does vary. I have read many documents showing the color variations, and I agree that they are not all white. The color doesn't really matter to me that much. They also show the health clearances, and while there are a few minor specs here and there, there is nothing dramatic like I see with other dogs. And no, I have not seen the actual clearance paperwork.. just links on OFA, etc.

I guess having a dog who recently died of hemangiosarcoma was a bit traumatic for me. So my theory is to try a dog with partly English bloodline just to see if my dog would not get hemangiosarcoma. It's not scientific at all. It's mainly just a hope to have a dog that lives a bit longer, based on the things I see, like health clearances, lineage and the years the previous generations in the bloodlines have lived.

I know nothing in life is guaranteed.

Where is this list that you speak of? I'm a newbie in need of some direction.

I did put in a request with GRCA for a reputable breeder list in my area, as well.

By the way, my dog was magnificent by luck. She was smart, trainable and very loving. She put up with a 2 year old toddler and was just amazing always. No research done. She was bred by a backyard breader 12 years ago. I bought her 12 years ago not knowing anything about getting a decent dog from the best place with the decent, healthy bloodlines. The heartbreak of losing her has at least prompted me to do some research. I just want a dog with a better chance of living a longer life, but like I said, nothing in life is guaranteed. You just do the best that you can and hope for the best, eh?

This is what I was reading... Page 6: http://grca.org/pdf/health/hemangio.pdf

I'm not a vet and I don't play one on TV. I just miss my dog.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

lisa0721 said:


> I found a breeder who breeds English Crème's and the color does vary. I have read many documents showing the color variations, and I agree that they are not all white. The color doesn't really matter to me that much. They also show the health clearances, and while there are a few minor specs here and there, there is nothing dramatic like I see with other dogs. And no, I have not seen the actual clearance paperwork.. just links on OFA, etc.
> 
> I guess having a dog who recently died of hemangiosarcoma was a bit traumatic for me. So my theory is to try a dog with partly English bloodline just to see if my dog would not get hemangiosarcoma. It's not scientific at all. It's mainly just a hope to have a dog that lives a bit longer, based on the things I see, like health clearances, lineage and the years the previous generations in the bloodlines have lived.
> 
> ...


12 years is pretty much the average life of a golden. And I disagree that you were "just lucky" that she was a wonderful beautiful golden. She obviously had wonderful genes regardless of who bred her. I lost my first golden who was purchased from a rep breeder with all clearances to cancer 1 week after his 11th birthday. I feel your pain. Good luck in your search. And just remember nothing is guaranteed.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

That is a very interesting article on hemangiosarcoma in Golden Retrievers. Thank you!
I do understand where you are coming from, lisa0721. I lost all three of my golden boys to hemangiosarcoma, the last one 9 weeks ago, he was 10 years old.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

lisa0721 said:


> I found a breeder who breeds English Crème's and the color does vary. I have read many documents showing the color variations, and I agree that they are not all white. The color doesn't really matter to me that much. They also show the health clearances, and while there are a few minor specs here and there, there is nothing dramatic like I see with other dogs. And no, I have not seen the actual clearance paperwork.. just links on OFA, etc.
> 
> I guess having a dog who recently died of hemangiosarcoma was a bit traumatic for me. So my theory is to try a dog with partly English bloodline just to see if my dog would not get hemangiosarcoma. It's not scientific at all. It's mainly just a hope to have a dog that lives a bit longer, based on the things I see, like health clearances, lineage and the years the previous generations in the bloodlines have lived.
> 
> ...



It's very hard to lose a dog to cancer, especially to hemangio. I'm very sorry for your loss of your beloved companion, but I'm glad you are taking the time to learn about a reputable breeder who does everything they possibly can to create well-tempered puppies who fit the breed standard, have their clearances, and they do something with their dogs (conformation, agility, obedience, etc.) 

The thing with cancer is that it's so tricky. Cancer is more genetic than anything and although dogs all have the same number of chromosomes, their cells grow and divide differently. Not to go all genetic on you, but it's hard to actually "cure" cancer completely, which makes it even harder for chemotherapy to work from one dog to the next. 

Keep in mind that just because your family's roots go back to Ireland, for example, doesn't mean that you aren't going to get cancer at all in your lifetime. The same thing goes for Goldens and the American and English lines. A Golden is a Golden is a Golden, they are already predisposed to cancers, hip/elbow problems, eye, heart...and the list goes on. There just isn't one "style" of Golden that doesn't have cancer and the other that does, it unfortunately doesn't work that way.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

I absolutely and totally understand the fact that you miss your dog. There isn't anyone among us who is immune to the terrible loss that we feel when we lose a beloved pet and member of our family. We recently lost our 16 year old foundation and it was devastating. Honestly, from experience, it doesn't matter how long we have them. It is never long enough. We are never ready to let them go and be without them.

From your post, I am gathering that your golden was 12 years old when you lost her. Unfortunately, the average lifespan of goldens is 10-12 years. It isn't something that is just goldens and is more a lifespan of dogs that are in that size range, as well. The larger the dog, the shorter the life span. With goldens being a large breed dog, that is the life span. Can you get lucky and have a dog live longer? Absolutely. We have been blessed with one that lived to 16 and have 2 who are almost 14(in July) and a 12 year old right now. But there are also many who don't make it to 12 and their owners would love to have had them that long.

The average lifespan has been 10-12 years for many, many years and if you do a lot of pedigree research, you will find that is true even among dogs that lived in the 60's and 70's.

English and American dogs still descended back to the same foundation stock so they carry the same genes.

I am sorry for you loss........


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Lisa0721 wrote: "I guess having a dog who recently died of hemangiosarcoma was a bit traumatic for me. So my theory is to try a dog with partly English bloodline just to see if my dog would not get hemangiosarcoma."

(According to the article you referenced) What are your thoughts on the high risk of Lymphoma and mast cell cancers in the UK? Are you concerned about those as well?


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

lisa0721 said:


> I found a breeder who breeds English Crème's and the color does vary. I have read many documents showing the color variations, and I agree that they are not all white. The color doesn't really matter to me that much. They also show the health clearances, and while there are a few minor specs here and there, there is nothing dramatic like I see with other dogs. And no, I have not seen the actual clearance paperwork.. just links on OFA, etc.
> 
> I guess having a dog who recently died of hemangiosarcoma was a bit traumatic for me. So my theory is to try a dog with partly English bloodline just to see if my dog would not get hemangiosarcoma. It's not scientific at all. It's mainly just a hope to have a dog that lives a bit longer, based on the things I see, like health clearances, lineage and the years the previous generations in the bloodlines have lived.
> 
> By the way, my dog was magnificent by luck. She was smart, trainable and very loving. She put up with a 2 year old toddler and was just amazing always. No research done. She was bred by a backyard breader 12 years ago. I bought her 12 years ago not knowing anything about getting a decent dog from the best place with the decent, healthy bloodlines. The heartbreak of losing her has at least prompted me to do some research. I just want a dog with a better chance of living a longer life, but like I said, nothing in life is guaranteed. You just do the best that you can and hope for the best, eh?


I am sorry that you lost your dog, not matter the reason nor the age it is always a hard thing to go through.

Did your dog pass at 12 years of age? If so, your dog lived longer than the average in both North America and overseas (overseas average is roughly six months longer when compared to North American averages).

Unfortunately, having a dog with a 'mixed' (for lack of a better term) pedigree is not going to better the odds (and I speak from experience). I, personally, choose to incorporate both English and American pedigrees in my breeding program, I have lost two to early cancer (and I consider anything before 9 years of age to be early), a 5 1/2 year old to Hemanigo (the rest of the littermates are still doing very well at 7 1/2 years) and a 6 year old to Lymphoma (the rest of the littermates are still doing well at 8 years of age).

In my opinion looking at pedigrees for longevity is a great start, but more importantly is looking at the breadth of pedigree (the siblings of those within the pedigree). It can look great on paper, dogs living until 10-15, but if the majority of the dogs within that pedigree were the odd ducks out in their litters (with many siblings passing before 8), the picture no longer looks as rosey.

Here are a few things I wrote on the subject of longevity and English vs. American: Goldens, Humans, and age of death. | Ramblings of a Dog Person
American vs. English vs. Golden Retriever | Ramblings of a Dog Person

Rob


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I would second what Rob has said--look for breadth of longevity in the pedigree, rather that a particular style of Golden. Cancer strikes Goldens from all styles. It is in the foundations of the breed. I have lost two Goldens to cancer now, both with very English/European pedigrees, one at 7(lymphoma) and one at 10 (splenic hemangio). The imported sire of the 10yo I lost this winter is still alive at 15, although her dam died of the same cancer at seven. 

So, if a breeder is trying to promote their "English" breeding program as being one where you won't get cancer, and citing that very unscientific "study" as evidence, then they are misleading you.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I just about freaked out bc a park near the hotel at which I am staying put up Pesticide Warning signs and sprayed Rodeo Pesticide all over. I am so glad I saw the signs and turned the car right around, as my dog is being bred today. 

By this I mean things other than genetics factor in. 

Our oncology vet says that genetics load the gun but yet environment pulls the trigger. 

You never know the mysteries of exposure to various chemicals etc, and who that plays in or even systemic inflammations from things like tick disease.


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## SunshineValley (Apr 3, 2014)

*Perfect Peace*



goldenflyer said:


> Gracie or Timber, please PM me if you get the chance. I am currently working with Perfect Peace to possibly bring home a puppy but I have no real references for them. I would love any information you may be able to provide. Thanks!



Did you get a golden from Perfect Peace? How is your dog doing? Would you recommend them?

Thanks!


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## lisa0721 (May 7, 2013)

SunshineValley said:


> Did you get a golden from Perfect Peace? How is your dog doing? Would you recommend them?
> 
> Thanks!


I have a Perfect Peace Golden.  She is awesome. If you want to see pictures, let me know. I would totally recommend Perfect Peace. Angela is good at answering questions anytime, before and after you pick up your puppy.

There is also a private Facebook page where we share pictures. You would have access after you pick up your puppy. I'm in touch with many PP dog owners and we are all in love with our dogs.

The breeding pairs all have clearances.


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## WildfireGoldensInArizona (Aug 10, 2012)

In Hope's case, she is way past due for her eye certification as it expired according to the OFA website on 10-15-11. All buyers as well as fanciers wanting to breed must always verify the info on the OFA website, not just k9data. It's a good place to start and get the registered names and numbers, but then go to offa.org for the most up-to-date data that has been submitted to them for certification on a dog. Another great tool is to click on the Vertical Pedigree at the top of the dogs ofa page and do more extensive research on not only the parents, grandparents and grandparents, but click on each of those dogs and research their siblings and offspring. It can be a real eye opener as to issues that might be in a line and help you make a more educated decision. Now maybe some have done the eyes and they are up-to-date but just haven't sent them in, but come on folks, if we would just send everything in to OFA there would be no questions as to all clearances being done or not on any dog. If a breeder uses cost as a reason not to submit them to OFA once their dogs have been examined, that is just an excuse as it is only $15.00 to submit OFA Cardiac results and $8 - $12.00 to submit your yearly eye exams to OFA or CERF. Would love to see our Golden OFA database much more complete.


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## lisa0721 (May 7, 2013)

AmbikaGR said:


> I do not see where "Perfect Peace has any higher ranking with fanciers than other English-Euro importers in the West who get their clearances but don't show." Are you referring to the post that speaks of "I have had the opportunity to talk with her several times, and found her to be very knowledgeable and informed about the breed. We are both members of www.englishgoldens.net breeders, which is known for their outstanding approach to education in the golden community. Angela contributed to a beautifully written article in the current GRCA news relating to the English Type Golden Retriever."? If so that is one poster's opinion. Do you have any factual first hand knowledge to share with the original poster about Perfect Peace?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a lot of competition, apparently, in the breeding world. All I can say is that I have a Perfect Peace puppy and she is just what I wanted. She is sweet and loving. I met her mother and another female when I picked my puppy up and they both seemed happy and healthy. I would have a Creme or a darker color. They are all beautiful. Angela is very knowledgable about goldens and if there are questions before or during the life of the dog, she is quick to respond. She's not afraid to guide you away from what you're doing if it's not right for the dog. She is supportive and provides a good puppies the owners rave about. 


Every golden is beautiful. There are lots of good breeders, but the question was about Perfect Peace. You can't go wrong with one of these puppies, IMO.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

lisa0721 said:


> There is a lot of competition, apparently, in the breeding world.


Yes, but it takes place in the ring, not in sales. One of the things you want to look for in a breeder is that they're out there, competing with their dogs in some venue. That's how they better the breed: they stack up their dogs against others and learn if they really have dogs who are far enough above average that breeding them improves the breed as a whole. Breeding a dog whose structure, type, temperament, or ability is below average brings the breed down.

So if you're not competing at all, you're just putting intact dogs together and turning a profit on the results.

If you agree that there's a lot of competition, can you point out the venue where this breeder excels? Can their dogs beat other dogs in obedience trials? in the conformation ("show") ring? in the field? in agility? Where are they competing and demonstrating that their dogs are making a contribution to the breed rather than just to their bank account?

Edited: I see one Can CH dog with the Perfect Peace prefix, but that's it for competitive titles that I can find.


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## lisa0721 (May 7, 2013)

*Competition*



tippykayak said:


> Yes, but it takes place in the ring, not in sales. One of the things you want to look for in a breeder is that they're out there, competing with their dogs in some venue. That's how they better the breed: they stack up their dogs against others and learn if they really have dogs who are far enough above average that breeding them improves the breed as a whole. Breeding a dog whose structure, type, temperament, or ability is below average brings the breed down.
> 
> So if you're not competing at all, you're just putting intact dogs together and turning a profit on the results.
> 
> ...


I looked for good lines before I purchased, and spoke to people who already had PP dogs and asked them how they felt about getting a PP dog. I don't think anyone will say, "Oh, I got a bum deal. This dog is horrible." We all love our dogs. I don't really care about competing or finding a dog with the most winning titles to determine which puppy I want. Decent lines and a caring breeder is what I was looking for.

If someone loves a dog, it seems like everyone is defensive about it... "Well, what's so great about your breeder?" I knew what I wanted in a dog and my dog is perfect for me.

I would recommend Perfect Peace to anyone. A lot of people would.


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