# Difficult dog; at 9 months getting even worse



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

If you have the funds maybe bring in a personal trainer to advise you. It sounds like you have your plate full and need some help. It may come down to finding her a new loving home if you can't get a handle on things. Yes puppies are a lot of work but at this age she should be pretty well behaved. Somewhere along the line she doesn't think of you as a leader. Your son needs to get in on the training also.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

This may sound harsh but I'm not good at sugar coating - 
it really sounds like this dog needs to be in anothe home.

She's not a good fit for you, and I don't know why - and it's not your fault or hers, it just seems like a real personality clash going on. Please consider rehoming her before the baby comes.


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

Thanks for the input. The obedience training she had came with lifetime support so we've been back several times for additional one on one with the trainer and we've taken our son with us for these sessions. For awhile we were having him do short training sessions daily with her (simple commands such as sit, down, etc.) but as soon as he was out of treats she was back to jumping and biting. He doesn't try anymore because she's put holes in every piece of clothing he owns.

Even the trainer had a hard time getting her to behave. Again, it was only if there was a treat involved that she would obey a command. 

She is truly the most headstrong dog I've ever seen. We have had puppies and dogs before so we are not newbies to pet ownership; it breaks my heart to think of rehoming her because in spite of all the trouble she gives us, we love her, and we believe that pets are family members for life. I can't figure out where we've gone wrong with her. But in all my years of pet ownership I've never had an animal that made the entire family so unhappy. It's very sad


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## 4goldengirls (Jun 10, 2014)

You state she's been thru obedience training and understands what is expected of her but she chooses not to listen. When training your dog they do not get the option of not listening. If your dog blows you off just one time, it is up to you to reinforce and help her do what is expected. She's learned she can ignore you. It is your consistency and patience that will reinforce the training. If she's allowed to blow you off, even one time, she's learned you are not consistent so she will also not be consistent. If you remain strong and consistent she will learn to do what is expected of her when she's given a command. You may get some extinction behavior before it fully resolves and what that means is one or more of those behaviors may get worse for a short time before it gets better. This is because her behavior has gotten her this far and she'll continue for a short time doing what she's learned works for her. Consistency and patience is the key.

Using treats in training is good to lure or shape a behavior. If you need it at all times in order for her to listen, it is not working. It's like it has become a bribe. 

Have you tried keeping a short line on her (shorter then a regular leash) so that if she is misbehaving you can get hold of it and lead her - calmly - to the crate. If she rockets out of the crate like a linebacker and starts the bad behavior, calmly return her to the crate for another 5-10 minutes. You don't want the time out in the crate to be any longer then a few minutes. When she jumps on your son, give her a downward "pop" with the short line as you tell her "Off". At this point you may need several repetitions in order for her to grasp that it is not allowed.

As far as toileting inside the house - if she doesn't "go" when taken out on the leash, bring her back inside and put her in her crate for 5 minutes. 5 Minutes later, leash her up and take her back outside. Repeat if necessary. Remember, dogs can't multi-task and if the sights and smells are more interesting, she's not going to toilet but when she gets inside, she's like "I gotta go now" so she's going inside even though she's just been brought out.

Perhaps you can use baby gates to keep her out of rooms where she is chewing.  Using a product called Bitter Apple is a hit or miss. It's usually more effective when freshly sprayed and loses it's potency when it dries. You can try sprinkling Alum (a pickling spice/herb) that tastes horrible on objects you don't want her to chew.

At this point she is still young and learning. Goldens take a while to grow their brains. lol You've got your hands full with the pup and your 8 yr old and adding a newborn to the equation is going to be that much more work. I'd hate to think the poor dog will get pushed to the side. Dig your heels in and stick with the Nothing In Life Is Free training method. Your pup has got to work for everything.

Good luck and please keep us posted.


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## 4goldengirls (Jun 10, 2014)

Meant to add: if the trainer was unable to work with her without a treat it may be time to find a new trainer. Training a dog is not a one size fits all - a method that works for dog a may not work with dog b.


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

I was going to suggest an in-home trainer but when you posted you're expecting a baby I don't think there is time for one. You and your family sound very stressed and that's not good for your health during pregnancy.
Daisy going to the bathroom in the house after being trained is troubling......very troubling.
Every now and then a golden comes along with some wires missing and it sounds like Daisy is that golden.
This should be a happy time for your family but it's everything but.


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## Pilgrim123 (Jul 26, 2014)

Daisy sounds to me like a dog who needs a job other than being a family pet. A job where she has a lot of physical and mental stimulation which makes her tired at the end of the day. I've got no doubt at all that you love her and have tried your best, but Daisy might need someone with more time, and who isn't stressed out trying to referee daily life with a small child and an obstreperous teenage dog (let alone one coping with all those hormone changes.) If you can't face the idea of another home, would you be able to send her to one of those "live-in" training centres for dogs? Perhaps they could teach her some manners - and give you enough of a break to breathe! Good luck, whatever you decide to do.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

As a breeder, if this were one of my pups, I would want her back. It just doesn't sound like a good match-a demanding puppy, a small child and another on the way. Sometimes this happens. Will the breeder take her back?

If so, I would take a breather, concentrate on your growing family and when the kids are older-school age, say, think about getting a pup or young adult at that time.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Looking at your other posts, I see you sent her to a board & train--while that may lay a foundation, classes where you're (or husband) on the other end of the leash IMO should be implemented. It sounds like you were matched to a pup that would have been best suited for a performance home vice pet home. When you say she'll perform for a treat but when you take it away she no longer complies to me isn't about her being stubborn it's that she really didn't learn, she was lured into actions without actually having to learn & make choices. Even w/ training involving treats, you have to work to fade them out, up the difficulty as to what earns a treat, maybe it's a string of commands vice a simple sit or wait.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I think you've gotten very good advice here already and I don't have anything to add. Just wanted to say that I understand the struggle you're going through and offer support, whatever you decide to do. I'm not sure where exactly you are in the PNW, but I know Portland has a golden rescue that seems to do great things.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

One of the things you can work on if you haven't is impulse control. Before her food gets put down make her sit and wait until you release her. Impulse control is so important. It is kind of like the nothing is free training.

I can't imagine how heartbreaking this has to be.


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

4goldengirls - regarding consistency, we discussed this a lot with both the trainer and the owner of the training school, who was brought in to assist when the trainer had a difficult time with her. I'll use "No" as my example. Trainer explained if she is told "No" she MUST stop what she is doing. If not, there is an immediate consequence. When she is eating the couch, we say "No" in a firm voice. She looks up at us, then goes back to eating the couch. The consequence is we remove her from the area and put her into her crate. A few minutes later, we let her out - she immediately goes back to eating the couch. Repeat, repeat, repeat. It's as if the consequences mean nothing to her. Same with the pop to get her off my son - if anything, that just riles her up more. 

We have baby gates everywhere we can possibly put them. She has learned to climb over them. We have tried several Bitter Apple type products - they don't seem to bother her in the least. 

Regarding the pooping in the house after being potty trained for months... Another example. This morning I took her out four times and she didn't go at all. I had to leave for work so she went into the crate. When I returned three hours later ... She had pooped in her crate. 

I don't want to seem as though I am rejecting everyone's suggestions or being argumentative - it's that we truly have tried virtually all of these things, some based on our experience with previous dogs and some on the advice of other Golden owners ... And it feels as though nothing works, no matter how hard we try.


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

I'm in tears at my desk at the thought of rehoming her ?

Someone mentioned that she was maybe not the right match for a pet home ... The owner of the training school said the same thing. She remarked that the breeder should have been more involved in the selection/matching process. 

Our good friends have a puppy from the same litter and they are having similar issues with their dog. And the breeder told us one of the puppies was returned to them a few months ago.

This experience has made me think I never want another dog, which is sad because we love dogs so much ...


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## BuddyinFrance (May 20, 2015)

What is upsetting you personally most about the idea of rehoming? That you will miss her and if so what will you miss most? Feel guilty? Your son will be disappointed? Other reasons?I understand it is a really upsetting time and decision but try to weigh things up from your dogs point of view.. what is in her best interests. I


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

I'm worried that she will miss us, and that she won't understand why she's leaving and be sad. I think she does love us. She can be so sweet when she feels like it. It's just very rare. 

My son, unfortunately, asks us almost daily if we can find her a new home. He doesn't like being around her. And he is the biggest animal lover I've ever seen. He has a dog at his dad's house who is the calmest, sweetest dog ever and my son just loves to play with her and cuddle with her ... Then he comes home and there's this zany wild dog who doesn't know how to play nice. Our previous dog was a Rottweiler and she was so gentle with my son. I had her before he was born so she was a few years old by the time he came. I thought 8 was old enough to have a puppy in the house but I think maybe he's still too young. She sees him as a playmate and can't be gentle with him.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

If you do have to end up rehomng her I think a rescue would be your best option. They will make sure she goes to the right kind of home. If other owners from this liter are having similar issues something just has went wrong with this breeding. Hopefully the parents won't be bred again.


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## NGolden (Sep 29, 2015)

I had big problems with my puppy and we are still working a lot with her to get better. I will just say what seemed to helped us a little bit with her.

When letting her out of crate she would usually run out and started biting so we would open doors just a little bit as soon as she would started going out close the doors. And you play with her like that until she settles down a little bit and then you call her out. That helped a lot so we didn't get crazy puppy just storming out of the crate.

Considering chewing the bed. My puppy liked to chew on coasters from coffee table. We used sometimes off time in crate but that didn't helped a lot. So I've put coaster on table and when she went for it, I said no and move her mouth away adding command leave it to it. At first she would be mad and started biting (we have realized we are not boss of her). So first few days she would not tolerate no, but after that she started to getting it. She still comes and sniffs it and she is testing if she can get it, so we are still careful. 

So that was one of the thing that we had to work on, for her to take us seriously when we say no. We are keeping her on leash at all times. It was pain in the ass at the beginning but now it's the best thing we did. It is easier to control her when she's doing things she is not allowed. 

With food, she would barking if we didn't get her food fast enough. So every time when she would do that I would leave her food and cross my hands so she can see that until she calms down and then I start preparing food again. Now she lays down next to me and waits. Also I was also using kong and she would be done in 5 minutes. And then I figure it out the proper way of using the kong. I have 2 kongs one is in shape of the bone and one is doughnut. First one I fill out so much she that the kibbles can't drop out when you shake the kong. That is the trick that worked for me so instead 5 minutes she needs maybe 15,20 or even more time to get the kibbles out. Other kong is filled out normally so that she doesn't use interest kibbles drops out right away. First time she went sleep after the meal. 
Here is the one of them that I am using. KONG® Pawzzles Bone Treat Dispensing Dog Toy (COLOR VARIES) | Toys | PetSmart

My puppy is still biting but what helped the most to me for her to realize that it hurts was a game with her food too. So we would take a kibble and put it between palm and finger. So when she went for it of course she put teeth on our skin and fingers. We would say loud ouch and remove fingers and kibble. Then we did it again. After few times like that she would start going with her tongue. So we would do that at every meal with few kibbles. And after that when we would say ouch when she would bite she understood what that means. She is still biting but it's getting better (I hope. ).

And treats. I've used them sooo much. And she would get mad when I didn't have them, so I stopped carry treats all the time. For few days she was upset and expected the treat for everything, but now she excepted the situation.

I was also thinking that she's getting enough exercise but now I am not so sure. We took her few times to some places where she can be off leash and run around and sniff. I works better and a walk or play in a backyard. Specially if she meets when we are there and gets a chance to play.

And we play find it. I put food in house and she's looking for it. Keeps her busy for a while and she's doesn't have time to think about bad things.

I understand how hard it is to have dog that behaves bad and you have to fight with those issues every day. I hope you will find a way to get thing start going in better direction.


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## BuddyinFrance (May 20, 2015)

Kendra said:


> I'm worried that she will miss us, and that she won't understand why she's leaving and be sad. I think she does love us. She can be so sweet when she feels like it. It's just very rare.
> 
> My son, unfortunately, asks us almost daily if we can find her a new home. He doesn't like being around her. And he is the biggest animal lover I've ever seen. He has a dog at his dad's house who is the calmest, sweetest dog ever and my son just loves to play with her and cuddle with her ... Then he comes home and there's this zany wild dog who doesn't know how to play nice. Our previous dog was a Rottweiler and she was so gentle with my son. I had her before he was born so she was a few years old by the time he came. I thought 8 was old enough to have a puppy in the house but I think maybe he's still too young. She sees him as a playmate and can't be gentle with him.


Ah bless you. She is so young, she will adapt to a new (right) environment so quickly. It makes me think about when I leave Buddy for a week with my friend and his dog... Buddy looks visibly disappointed when I turn up to take him home! And if your son is struggling to the point of asking for her to go then, personally, that would comfort me in my decision to find her a new home.


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## Jud (Aug 10, 2015)

laprincessa said:


> This may sound harsh but I'm not good at sugar coating -
> it really sounds like this dog needs to be in anothe home.
> 
> She's not a good fit for you, and I don't know why - and it's not your fault or hers, it just seems like a real personality clash going on. Please consider rehoming her before the baby comes.


Yup. I totally agree.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

BuddyinFrance said:


> Ah bless you. She is so young, she will adapt to a new (right) environment so quickly. It makes me think about when I leave Buddy for a week with my friend and his dog... Buddy looks visibly disappointed when I turn up to take him home! And if your son is struggling to the point of asking for her to go then, personally, that would comfort me in my decision to find her a new home.


exactly
Dogs adjust far more quickly than humans do, I think. I've taken Max to stay with my best friend a few times, for several days, and he looks sad when I leave but 10 minutes later, he's plopped on the sofa with her, right at home. 
And the thing is - the puppy here can't be happy either. She might do better in a home without kids, where she can get her person's full attention. 

And I have to add, puppies don't get "mad" and "upset" if you don't have treats. They don't do mad. Confused about why the routine changed, maybe, but not angry.


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## BeehiveGolden (Oct 4, 2015)

Wow. This was heartbreaking to read. Your frustration is palpable and this dog has worn thin her welcome. 
She's really struggling in your home. Is doggy daycare an option? Sort of a Hail Mary in hopes she'll get tired out and have older dogs teach her some manners. 

I can tell from your posts are a wonderful person and love this dog deeply. You've invested a lot into this dog. Emotionally, monetarily, and time. It seems like it was all to try and fit a square peg into a round hold. It's ok if you have to give her up. You'll all be much happier in the long run. 

If she has a high ball drive she might be a candidate for bomb detection. She's such a high drive animal she really needs to be in working home.


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## Tosh's Legacy (Oct 2, 2013)

Dogs pick up and understand more than we think: she knows your son is not happy with her and you and your husband are conflicted with her also. Crazy as it may sound, she may be reacting -- she is not a good fit for your home. Not your fault or anything you haven't done, but just kind of a square peg in a round hole. Your emotions are conflicted: her emotions are conflicted.

The best for all concerned here (as painful as it may be) is to rehome her.

I have a rescue that was abused verbally and physically and always told how bad he was. And that is exactly what he became -- a bad dog. When we took him in, we made a point of telling him what a good boy he is (never verbalized anything negative with him) and he has become that good boy. They understand.

Be kind to yourself and her -- no one in this situation is wrong or bad. It just isn't meant to be.


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

I agree that she would probably do better in a home without children. She is much calmer when my son isn't home and she behaves a bit better when he's gone as well. The two of them just get each other so wound up and then she gets out of control and he gets hurt. 

I think it was a different poster who mentioned the dog getting mad when there were no treats


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Kendra said:


> I agree that she would probably do better in a home without children. She is much calmer when my son isn't home and she behaves a bit better when he's gone as well. The two of them just get each other so wound up and then she gets out of control and he gets hurt.
> 
> I think it was a different poster who mentioned the dog getting mad when there were no treats


Yes, it was a different poster, I was just too lazy to do two quotes.


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

I have to admit, if we rehomed her I would also miss some of her antics... 

Had to share because it was too funny not to ... She rarely gets to be in the yard by herself because she's an escape artist and will take off. But we have a tie-out that we occasionally put her on for 10 minutes or so if she doesn't want to come in when we're ready to go inside. This was the result the other day. Literally less than 5 minutes unsupervised.


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

Oops, tried to share a picture. Didn't work I guess.


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## BowieGoblinKing (Oct 6, 2015)

Where do you live? I would look for a new trainer. For example I know a gentleman here in Northern CA who helps train police dogs. He takes difficult dogs with him (board and train) and will keep them for as long as it takes to train the dog. He is a miracle worker! He works with shepards and malinois primarily but I've seen him take in pit bulls, Huskies, etc. I think you need a trainer with the tough love approach. I've never seen him fail. And don't worry if you have to re-home her. I tried to take in some rescues that ended up not being the right fit and I felt like a total failure. But they ended up finding their fur-ever homes and now I have my golden puppy.


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

Oops, for some reason my picture isn't uploading. Anyhow, she was covered in mud. Completely covered.


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## carolinehansen (Sep 16, 2015)

Completely agree with BowieGoblinKing. My puppy was absolutely insane and we did puppy kindergarten and it did absolutely nothing. He only got worse. I finally took him to a man who trains police dogs and service dogs and he helped me train my little guy and he is a whole new dog. I don't know if that's an option for you, but if you don't have the heart to give her up yet I would suggest giving training a second chance with someone new.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

For the sake of all involved, I think you should relinquish the dog preferably to her breeder or a Golden rescue organization as soon as possible but certainly before your baby arrives.


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

Dogs and kids are hard. I don't live at home, but when I go visit, Zelda is AMAZING with my four year old brother, but my 9 year old brother can get her wound up in no time at all (though she's still gentle with him as she's nearly two now. But she wasn't as a puppy!). Growing up, we rehomed two dogs (a boxer and an Australian Shepherd) - both at times where my mom was expecting. The dogs were good with us kids, because we had been raised with dogs and knew how to act - but my mom worried they wouldn't be a good match with a baby or toddler. And it's true - they didn't like being hugged, or sudden movements, and a baby or toddler wouldn't have had the impulse control needed. Some dogs just aren't good fits for young children.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

if it weren't for the baby coming into the picture, I'd say yes, go for the extra training, try to keep the puppy - but the baby changes the whole story. 
For one thing, the puppy may easily hurt the baby, unintentionally
For another, no one is going to have time for the puppy - at least not as much time as this puppy seems to need
Let her go, before the situation gets worse.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

I support you in whatever you choose. With a baby on the way, the last thing you want to worry about is safety, and safety is #1.

But, I am unclear- is your son still doing things that get her riled up? If so, to help your dog prepare for her next home, I would make sure he doesn't ever do this. Does he participate in training her? Again, not so that you keep her, but to help her for the future.

Here is a good article: 
https://naturaldogtraining.com/blog/teaching-a-puppy-not-to-bite/

I am truly sorry. I have had very tough times with my dog as well and it is so difficult. Don't let this keep you from having a dog again, though. When your baby is older, you can try again.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

I know I'm carrying the voice of controversy here, but I honestly just think this is her age/phase. See http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-training/109111-parents-teenage-pups.html
I bet in a few more months she starts to calm down and becomes the pup you always wanted (though she might not be with your family at that time for you to see it). I'm not saying that you can wait that long, especially with a little one on the way... but, if you can, I bet you'll be glad you did.


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## Goldylover2 (May 1, 2014)

You need to find a trainer that will keep her for a week or two. We had the same exact problem with our pup. We were at our wits end. My girlfriend wanted to get rid of him at 7 months old. I found a trainer 70 miles away that has dealt with all kinds of issues in dogs. He kept him a week and we went back every weekend for 7 weeks. We changed to a prong collar. In the house our pup had a 6 foot nylon rope attached to his prong collar. When he would act up. I would make a correction and tug on that nylon rope quickly. After the 3rd weekend back. We also bought a E-Collar. I was against sending shocks to my pup. I thought it was kind of cruel. But it works. Our pup is 21 months old and he is a great dog. Find a trainer in you area that uses prong collars and e-collars. It will help get your pup under control. The trainer I went to is Lee Hamilton. Look him up online and on youtube. Maybe give him a call and just maybe he'll now someone in your area that can help your family out.


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## bethlehemgolden (Aug 2, 2014)

What does the breeder say?


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

You have received a lot of advice, suggestions, etc. I also wonder how/if the breeder is involved in this? SOME of the behavior sounds typical but not all of them and pooping in the crate is really unusual. Most reputable breeders that I know have a clause in their contract that says a dog that cannot be kept is discussed with the breeder so I do hope that your breeder is 1) reputable and 2) assisting you with these issues and 3) helps to re-home the dog if that is what you decide to do. Good luck with moving forward with a plan that is a win/win/win for you, your family and the puppy.


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## Jud (Aug 10, 2015)

laprincessa said:


> exactly
> Dogs adjust far more quickly than humans do, I think. I've taken Max to stay with my best friend a few times, for several days, and he looks sad when I leave but 10 minutes later, he's plopped on the sofa with her, right at home.
> And the thing is - the puppy here can't be happy either. She might do better in a home without kids, where she can get her person's full attention.
> 
> And I have to add, puppies don't get "mad" and "upset" if you don't have treats. They don't do mad. Confused about why the routine changed, maybe, but not angry.



You are so right. As amazing as Cara was....she would have been so unhappy with another 'child, dog' wanting my attention. As she was an omega....she would have acted out by laying in a corner and looking 'sad' for days. That is why we never got a 2nd dog. Well said !!!!!!!


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

Will try to answer all questions here: 

My son really doesn't do anything to rile her up ... just the sight of him gets her wound up. The minute he walks into the room she just goes nuts. Jumping, running, biting, barking ... it's not malicious behavior, it's excitement, but we just cannot get her to calm down. The only solution is to keep her on the leash at all times when he's in the room, but that's hardly practical to do ALL the time. Even at that, she's lunging, pulling on the leash, trying to get to him. She has the same reaction around other children; my sister's little boy is 2 and won't come near her; when my friends come over with their children Daisy has to stay in her crate because we can't trust her around the little ones. 

This was the breeder's first litter. She had experience breeding other types of dogs and the sire was owned by a good friend of ours, so we thought since we had met both parents and spent time with both families, observed how their dogs behaved with their children, etc. that we were making a good choice. Unfortunately she does not have much advice for us other than she thinks Daisy will grow out of it. If we do decide to rehome her we will talk with the breeder first before doing so. 

A few have suggested a trainer that will keep her for a week or two. She went through a one month board and train program and they had a difficult time with her. They kept her an extra week and had the owner of the school come in to work with her one on one as well as multiple sessions with us as a family. The owner of the school conceded that she was a very difficult puppy, even for a Golden (known for high energy, etc) and she suspected the main problem was that she is just SO very smart that it's difficult to keep her mind stimulated. 

Someone also mentioned e-collars. They used an e-collar at the obedience school she went to. We bought one to use when she came home. We planned to use it for behaviors that were really unacceptable, such as biting our son. She jumped up and put her teeth on his arm, we zapped her with a verbal correction ... she flinched; she could obviously feel it, but she continued what she was doing. At that point we removed her and put her in her crate to chill out. We tried the e-collar for several weeks and upped the intensity of the zaps a few times - same result. She would flinch and look at us, like "yes, I feel that and I don't like it ... but I still don't want to stop what I'm doing". So, we gave up on the e-collar. 

I was in tears last night when I got home from work as I talked to my husband about possibly finding a new home for her. She of course could sense that I was upset and didn't leave my side all evening, putting her head in my lap every time I sat down. She has a way of pushing us all the way to our limit and then making up for it by being extra sweet. 

I do think that she needs a home with no children; it just makes me so sad to think of giving her up. I know she loves us and wants to be with us. It's not her fault that we are the wrong family for her and I feel so badly that we haven't been able to properly control her behavior. We feel like absolute failures!


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

Here is the picture I was trying to find last night  As frustrating as my posts sound, it's not all bad. We have a lot of fun/amusing times with her too.


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## RSB1982 (Jul 13, 2015)

Oh my goodness! Yes, she does look like a handful there! A cute handful. I'm not sure what advice I can give, you've gotten great advice from senior members of the community. I'm a golden newbie ;-) The fact that you put your pup through in home board and train and that did not help your situation would concern me. We sent our pup for in home board and train (3 weeks) and it worked wonders. We are also expecting a baby which is one of the reasons we decided to do board and train - we were hoping to speed up the training process. We also wanted our pup to get more exposure to other dogs in a controlled environment since we have no other pets. I'm sorry you are going through this... it sounds like you have done all the 'right' things. Another poster mentioned doggie daycare, have you thought about that? When my pup plays with other pups it really wears him out.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

One other recommendation. Have you had her to the vet for a complete medical workup. Also a good vet behaviorist might beable to shed more light on your situation. I can tell how much you love her.


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

A vet behaviorist is something we have not tried yet. I will look into that. We're in a small rural town so our options are limited but we're close enough to the larger cities that we could take her there.


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

Also, regarding doggie daycare. This is something we've looked into but haven't tried yet. However, my husband frequently takes her over to our friend's house after work to play with their chocolate Lab. They will race around the yard for hours until the Lab collapses in exhaustion ... And Daisy will still come home and be a complete terror. 

I honestly think she's getting plenty of physical exercise; it's mental stimulation that we can't seem to do enough of for her.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Kendra said:


> My son really doesn't do anything to rile her up ... just the sight of him gets her wound up. The minute he walks into the room she just goes nuts. Jumping, running, biting, barking ... it's not malicious behavior, it's excitement, but we just cannot get her to calm down.
> 
> Someone also mentioned e-collars. They used an e-collar at the obedience school she went to. We bought one to use when she came home. We planned to use it for behaviors that were really unacceptable, such as biting our son. She jumped up and put her teeth on his arm, we zapped her with a verbal correction ... she flinched; she could obviously feel it, but she continued what she was doing.


Just a background-- search my posts and you will find many where I am in absolute tears. At around the 7 month mark I was also pretty convinced I would have to rehome my dog to a home without children. I have 5 kids, ranging in age from 3-13.

My dog has an arousal problem. He can seem calm, but the minute he is excited, he goes over the top. At your pup's age, this was_ *far worse *_than it is now. He is approaching 12 months and he is much, much, much better. He still has his moments and we still have to be prepared (always a tug toy on walks!!!!)-- sometimes I think there is a rush of hormones or something on certain days-- but when I look at him overall, I see a dramatic improvement. As my trainer pointed out, there are energy levels, and there are arousal levels. My dog has a high arousal level, and it sounds like yours does, too. The solution is a combination of patience (a lot of it), prevention, patience (time!), impulse control practice, patience, and patience. Did I mention patience?

I am concerned about the e-collar use. Your dog may be even more confused now about how to interact with your son, and anxious about what will happen. The fact that she didn't stop jumping with the shock means she just did not learn the association the way you wanted her to. 

We did it differently-- instead of associating pain or confusion with my children, we have always paired nice things with the kids. My children have been VERY exciting to my dog, so for a long time, they (esp. the younger ones) were almost always separated by a baby gate or he was leashed. This was after learning the hard way what would happen if preventive measures weren't in place! My kids have spent a lot of time doing basic training with our pup and continue with it daily. For a long time, this was done while a gate separated them. Since your pup jumps a gate, you may have to use a tether and gate combo.

I would have your son completely ignore the dog for now, except for brief, very directed, organized activities. Will she work for food from him? At this point, it doesn't matter if he is using food obviously with her. You want them to have as many positive experiences together as possible. Bring on the yummy treats. 

I would also immediately start on the relaxation protocol by Dr. Karen Overall. My trainer gave me this and it helped so much. Other people here have used it with success. http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/Protocol_for_Relaxation-_Karen_Overall.pdf

Relaxation Protocol MP3 Files | Champion of My Heart ... a real-time memoir

The most concerning issue to me is the regression for house-training. I wonder if anxiety is playing a part, but could just be she is highly distracted. Will food motivate her outside? Could you start all over again-- tether her to you when she is inside, crate when you can't watch her, feed her Best Treats Ever when she goes outside, rush her outside when you catch her in the act (which you will, since she will be tethered to you). Of course, this is after a vet check!

Now, I am NOT saying you should keep her or not. I know that the newborn/infancy time is very precious, and if you have a very demanding dog, then you will not be able to appreciate this time with your new baby. Only you can decide if you should keep her. But, please get her started on finding peace and calmness, and to associate children with happy, calm times. This will ensure that she will have a safe future. 

This is my youngest daughter with our pup now . . .a dog whom we couldn't even pet when we first brought home without food.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

Kendra- please don't take this the wrong way, but I think part of the problem MAY be that the breeder sounds like someone who didn't give the breeding a lot of thought. I know nothing about the breeder or the dogs involved but I wonder how much the breeder considered her own dog, the history behind her dog and the same for the sire. The fact that she tells you that the dog may outgrow it (and has not other guidance)is a red flag for me. 
My breeder is very involved with her puppy owners and always available with guidance, helpful advice, etc. We joke with her about obnoxious puppy behaviors but our dog at his most difficult is still controllable and responds to training. I am not a breeder but I know that good breeders will only breed dogs that have the desired golden characteristics. It may be that your breeder did not really consider all of the important factors before deciding to breed this litter (I think you mentioned that another pup from the litter was also returned...)
It sounds from everything you have described that this is a bad "fit" for you and the puppy. You have tried a lot of different things. It *IS* ok to come to a decision to re-home a dog and it may be the most loving thing you can do for all involved. It does not mean that you failed and it may be that this particular dog possesses characteristics that can only be handled in a different type of environment.


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

I will look into the relaxation protocol. Impulse control was one thing the trainer mentioned Daisy has a very hard time with. We have several ways that we work on impulse control with her daily (waiting begire barreling out the door, not going after a treat until told "ok", etc) but again - it's only successful when she feels like doing it. Sometimes she's wonderful at it, and sometimes she simply will not obey. 

Will also attempt to have my son ignore her except for training sessions. The problem that we have with this is that if he is in the room, she is on him. He can be sitting on the couch reading a book, not paying attention to her at all, and she'll walk right over and grab his leg with her mouth. I taught him "be a tree" ... Doesn't stop her. She can jump amazingly high ... She'll vault right over the back of the couch to get to him. So we've resorted to keeping her on a leash when he's in the room or else send him upstairs where she can't get at him. Neither is a very practical solution; particularly mornings when we're getting ready for work and school. 

I agree that the breeder probably did not put enough thought into what traits she was breeding for. Yes, one pup was returned at 5 months old, and our friends have a pup from the same litter and are having the same problems with their dog. They are retired with no kids at home and are devoting several hours a day to training as well as 3+ hours of exercise, and still struggling. Which doesn't give me much hope for our chances of success  

One of my concerns about surrendering her to a rescue is that I worry no one will adopt her because she is so difficult. It breaks my heart to think of her lonely and waiting for a family that never comes ...


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

She is initiating interaction with your son-- sounds like she probably really, really likes kids but doesn't know how be with them the way humans want her to.

Remember that dogs, but especially ones like retrievers, communicate with their mouths. Some are mouthier than others for sure, some are naturally gentle with kids, and some need to be taught.

Does your pup know how to play tug, with rules? This has truly helped my mouthy dog. 

The way we play:
Show dog tug toy, dog sits.
Dog waits for "tug" verbal cue.
We tug.
You can practice "give" (trade for food).
Repeat.
Let dog win. (I just read an article about letting the dog win recently, and I'm personally on board--- though some people say not to, or at least not always.) At least end on a happy note, where treats are given when the game ends.

Once your dog can do this reliably with you, then your son can try with strict supervision. He should always have a great tug toy nearby, so when she asks him to play with her mouth, boom-- redirect, redirect. Tug has really been a great outlet for my mouth-expressive dog. Biting gets the stress out.

Oh-- but with regard to not getting adopted-- unlikely. Young, purebred golden? She will find a home quickly thru a rescue.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Something that I notice when looking at her cute picture with the mud on her face. Her coat doesn't look very good for being nine months. That's why I think she needs a vet check with some blood work done. Her coat looks very short. Maybe it's just the picture that is another thought I was having.

As far as the e collar you really need a professional to show you how to use it correctly. She could of been associating your son with the discomfort which is why she didn't stop.

I hope everything works out. A rescue will know what kind of home is best for her.

You might also want to look into a trainer that uses a prong collar for correction but it needs to be done right.


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

I think it might look that way in the picture because she's soaked and her coat is stuck to her underside. It's quite long, especially on her belly and tail. She eats Taste of the Wild adult food which was recommended by vet and trainer. We used to feed Blue Buffalo until I read all the articles about byproducts found in their food. 

Interesting theory on playing tug. She does love tug games. We try to avoid them because we were told it encourages dominant behavior. I agree, she LOVES kids. She loves all people, actually. Her feistiness has never been about being mean or aggressive, she just simply can't contain her energy and excitement and when she gets going, all common sense and all her training goes right out the window.


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

I was trying to find a picture of her when she's dry to show her coat length, but all the pictures I have of her are when she's lying down being cute. This one is one of my favorites though - my husband was watching Bat Dad videos on YouTube and went into the kitchen to get something to drink ... when he came back Daisy had claimed his spot and was watching intently. Funniest thing ever!

P.S. note the destroyed couch in the background ... her handiwork. Besides the trim, the couch is her favorite thing to eat. Amazing how much destruction she is capable of in a matter of seconds that it takes for one of us to get to her and stop her!


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Well, not sure you are aware, but there is a lot of controversy surrounding the dominance theory. If you put it aside for now and think of her instead as a dog who is learning, making mistakes, impulsive, determined, and frankly, a teenager (I am finding the teen months come earlier than we think), and a dog who may be bossy (like a teen can be) vs wanting to take over the world. . .it's easier to swallow.

Tug has been a great way for my dog to practice impulse control-- and, he needs a release regularly for his mouth-- so this is essential for him. You can also train your pup to always have something in her mouth when interacting with your son. She won't need to forever (they will both get older and mature) but it's a good habit for now. 

Note-- we don't always play tug with rules now. My 3 y.o. plays her own version now that our pup is older. She walks around with the tug toy and he follows her with it in his mouth. No actual tugging involved (keeps excitement low and is safer) but they both have fun.

ETA-- she is adorably beautiful.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Aw beautiful picture. Yes her coat looks fine in that picture.

Although Chloe isn't as bad as your pup she loves kids also. She gets so excited. My seven yearold nephew can handle her pretty well. He gets down on the floor and plays and that keeps her from jumping up. My four yearold niece is to little so we really have to watch her with Chloe. They say Golden's have over excited greeting disorder.

When is your baby due? I assume you might have awhile to try and make things better before thinking about rehomng her. Your son needs to start being a little more assertive with her so she thinks of him as a leader.

Something else to look into spaying if she hasn't been. It doesn't hurt to try everything.


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## Helo's Mom (Oct 16, 2011)

She reminds me of a dog at the golden retriever rescue that I got Helo from. This dog was very high energy and smart and they recognized he needed a job to do and got him involved in Search and Rescue and he is excelling at this. As I was reading about Daisy I was thinking she sounds like a dog who would be suited for search and rescue. If you do end up giving her to a rescue, they should notice this and do their best to make it happen if they really think she's SAR material (or bomb dog or a similar type job). Rescues are very good at recognizing what dogs need and the homes they should be placed in so you shouldn't worry about that at all. Just my 2 cents to give you something else to think about. 
She is a beautiful girl and sounds extremely smart and busy but probably not the right dog for a young family.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

please don't feel like a failure
You've gone above and beyond what a lot of people would have done with Daisy. 
You've gotten some great advice here - but what concerns me is the baby coming. You aren't going to have time to care for a newborn and give this dog the attention she needs. Not your fault, again. 
But think about what's good for her, too. You'll miss her, you love her, but don't you want her to be happy? And if she's happier somewhere else, then let her go.


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

The baby is due in April. Daisy will be almost 14 months at that time. I think we will try a few more ideas in the next few months to get her behavior under control, rehoming will be a last resort. We really don't want to give her up. She hasn't been spayed yet; the breeder and trainer both recommended we wait until she's at least 2. If it could help with her behavior though, we may consider it.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

I'm really sorry you're going through this. She does sound like a dog who needs a job. Someone had suggested daycare. Perhaps you could try this and let her go full days a few times a week. My boys go (for long days because we work) and they are TIRED when they get home. There is some carry over to the next day as well. 

If you do make the decision to rehome, just know that you have done everything in your power to make this work. It may just be that she needs to be in a home that can direct her energy level, etc and keep her occupied. Good luck. There is no right or wrong here....


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Kendra said:


> The baby is due in April. Daisy will be almost 14 months at that time. I think we will try a few more ideas in the next few months to get her behavior under control, rehoming will be a last resort. We really don't want to give her up. She hasn't been spayed yet; the breeder and trainer both recommended we wait until she's at least 2. If it could help with her behavior though, we may consider it.


Personally I would consider getting her spayed. You need to exaust all options. With a females cancer risks actually increase if you wait until over a yearold. I don't know if Chloe having been spayed at six months had caused her not to have a teenage phase or not. But I think since you have some time I would consider spaying in the next month or so. Like I said you have nothing to lose and everything to gain and need to exaust all options.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

I don't know if you've had a chance to read this, which is pinned at the top of the forum, but it may help you to have a little different perspective when working with her. And by the way, she is ADORABLE!

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...y-up-1-year/380986-its-puppy-not-problem.html


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## Mayabear (Aug 26, 2015)

Kendra, I read the first couple of pages only, so pardon me if I am being repetitive.

I think the key item in all your posts is how someone else who got a puppy from the same breeder is experiencing similar problems. Not to mention that one pup has already been returned.

I profess to not know much about breeding, but it seems very plausible that these puppies have come out wrong (for the lack of a better phrase). This does not seem to be your first stint at raising a pup, and your writing style and detail portrays a sense of poise. You also seem to have run the gamut on things to do.

Ultimately, you cannot have this puppy continue to behave this way once your new child arrives. Not to mention, neither you nor your husband will have the time or patience to deal with Daisy's shenanigans. 

You seem to have a few months before the baby arrives. I hope that the work you have put in pays off and that Daisy settles. If not, for the sake of your human family, she may have to go. I really really hope she works out though. Please keep us posted.


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## Goldylover2 (May 1, 2014)

All goldens aren't the same. Some are low energy and some are very high energy. Some listen and don't get into mischief and others find trouble when ever they can. Personalities are different. My first golden was as close to the perfect puppy as one can get. My current Golden was the puppy from hell. He was not a fun puppy to say the least. He didn't listen and used his teeth on everything, including my hands, arms and clothes. Kendra, I think your pup will be the great dog at some point. But it might take another six months. With a baby coming and her behavior not improving at this point. Then you need to seek out a different trainer entirely or find a new home for the little girl. Too bad your not within a couple hundred miles of my trainer. He would be perfect for you and your family and of course your pup.


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

She definitely is in her teenage phase, which draws to a close around the 18 month to two year mark. My girl was a relatively calm teenager (and thank goodness, because she was a DEMON puppy), but she definitely had the I've-forgotten-all-the-commands-I-knew-and-am-also-now-deaf problem. She's about 21 months old now and finally remembered what "sit" was again a few months ago. 

Tug is good! As long as there are rules, tug is great fun for everyone involved.

How does your son react when Daisy jumps on him? Does he tend to yell/cry/squeal? Or will he talk to her in a stern voice (yell)?


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

Helo's Mom said:


> She reminds me of a dog at the golden retriever rescue that I got Helo from. This dog was very high energy and smart and they recognized he needed a job to do and got him involved in Search and Rescue and he is excelling at this. As I was reading about Daisy I was thinking she sounds like a dog who would be suited for search and rescue. If you do end up giving her to a rescue, they should notice this and do their best to make it happen if they really think she's SAR material (or bomb dog or a similar type job). Rescues are very good at recognizing what dogs need and the homes they should be placed in so you shouldn't worry about that at all. Just my 2 cents to give you something else to think about.
> She is a beautiful girl and sounds extremely smart and busy but probably not the right dog for a young family.


This is exactly what I was thinking. This pup really needs a job.


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## merryjoy (Nov 19, 2015)

*difficult dog*

Kendra, We have a 11 month old puppy who has been pretty challenging. Three weeks ago, our dog trainer shared with us the book Chill Out, Fido! by Nan Kene Arthur.

The basic premise is that you find those moments when your dog is calm and relaxed, and reward him/her at that time. There are many exercises based on that same principle and expanding it to calm greetings, being calm around guests, calm leash walking, etc. The section of the book about what causes dogs to be hyper was also very helpful.

At any rate, this book changed our lives. Within several days, home life started to become more manageable.


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## Jessie'sGirl (Aug 30, 2010)

Just a couple of thoughts ..
You say Daisy goes for a walk in the morning and Hubby takes her out after work. Where is Daisy in between these two outings?
I think you need to find a new trainer, one with tons of experience in behavioral issues. Do a lot of research, get recommendations. 
I am by no means a dog trainer, but I have kept my son's very hyper Golden many times. My two best weapons are : exercise and consistent routine. This is a a dog who has destroyed sofas, eaten gyprock etc.he does not destroy things on my home. He too is a very smart. Just as an example, he likes to rough house with my son's pug on the sofa. He soon learned that rough housing got him kicked off the sofa( just with a verbal " off" repeated each time ) and being quiet earned him the privilege of staying there. 
Instead of saying " no" , choose an alternate command for an approved behavior.
Daisy is a smart girl. She will get it in time. Stay consistent. One trick for biting is to teach Daisy to " kiss" ie lick your hand by putting peanut butter on the back of your hand. Once she learns this, you can use this to distract her from being bitey.


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

We have taught our son to be calm and stern with her - no, off, etc. rather than freaking out and flailing around, which she thinks is great fun and just gets her more excited. 

I will check out the book that was recommended as well. 

As for where she is during the day, after my husband leaves for work she is with me for a few hours while my son and I are getting ready for school and work. She does some playing on her own (usually zooming around my bedroom while I'm getting ready) and then she follows me from room to room until I leave. She has another quick potty break and run around the yard before going into her crate. I come home 3 hours later at lunch and take her out to go potty, then some play time before I have to go back to work. Then she's back in the crate until my husband gets home about 2 hours later, and they are outside for 2-3 hours playing fetch and running around. She is out of her crate and with the family all evening until her bedtime at 10:00. She sleeps in the crate in our room because if we leave her out she destroys things while we're asleep.


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## Jessie'sGirl (Aug 30, 2010)

Thanks, I was just wondering if she was alone all day. You sound like a very diligent owner.


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

She is alone more than I would like, but we make sure she's never crated for too long at a time and she gets our undivided attention when we're home


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Kendra said:


> A few have suggested a trainer that will keep her for a week or two. She went through a one month board and train program and they had a difficult time with her. They kept her an extra week and had the owner of the school come in to work with her one on one as well as multiple sessions with us as a family. The owner of the school conceded that she was a very difficult puppy, even for a Golden (known for high energy, etc) and she suspected the main problem was that she is just SO very smart that it's difficult to keep her mind stimulated.
> 
> Someone also mentioned e-collars. They used an e-collar at the obedience school she went to. We bought one to use when she came home. We planned to use it for behaviors that were really unacceptable, such as biting our son. She jumped up and put her teeth on his arm, we zapped her with a verbal correction ... she flinched; she could obviously feel it, but she continued what she was doing. At that point we removed her and put her in her crate to chill out. We tried the e-collar for several weeks and upped the intensity of the zaps a few times - same result. She would flinch and look at us, like "yes, I feel that and I don't like it ... but I still don't want to stop what I'm doing". So, we gave up on the e-collar.


If you want this to work, you're going to have to make some drastic changes & the first is to get to a real trainer. I just can't fathom a trainer that straps a e-collar on a 5-month old puppy as a means to train/teach behavior vice reinforce & then send the pup & collar home to a family without the proper training--the fact that you were zapping her at a higher & higher intensity is worrisome & demonstrates a lack of training on the tool.

There seems to be a lot of emphasis on something being wrong w/ Daisy but quite honestly, despite your best efforts I see a huge gap in establishing basic foundational obedience assuming the pup should know right from wrong while not ever having the opportunity to learn.

My pup is 7 mos & we're ready for our 4th obedience class--the learning never stops, you begin w/ baby steps & begin to build from there and I'm finding I need the classes more than she does. It really seems like your family as a whole would be best served to be trained on how to train & be able to talk through your frustrations & means to counter the behavior. 

I do hope you can work through it but it's going to be work to make up lost ground--not insurmountable but will require a dedicated effort. I know I have fostered a couple of pups who were surrendered for being unruly in their homes (a lot of activity & kids) & when they came to me, they were perfect, didn't see a single issue--sometimes it's finding the right home for the pup. So again, please don't think of Daisy as being damaged goods.


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## Kendra (Sep 23, 2015)

SheetsSM said:


> If you want this to work, you're going to have to make some drastic changes & the first is to get to a real trainer. I just can't fathom a trainer that straps a e-collar on a 5-month old puppy as a means to train/teach behavior vice reinforce & then send the pup & collar home to a family without the proper training--the fact that you were zapping her at a higher & higher intensity is worrisome & demonstrates a lack of training on the tool.
> 
> There seems to be a lot of emphasis on something being wrong w/ Daisy but quite honestly, despite your best efforts I see a huge gap in establishing basic foundational obedience assuming the pup should know right from wrong while not ever having the opportunity to learn.
> 
> ...


 We certainly don't think of her as damaged goods; in fact if you read back through my posts I've said repeatedly that I feel that WE are the ones who have gone wrong somewhere, not her. She is a headstrong dog and a stubborn dog, yes - but I don't think there is anything wrong with her. Quite the opposite; as I have stated, she is a very smart dog and I think a lot of our difficulties with her are because it is difficult to provide enough mental stimulation for her to keep her from misbehaving out of boredom.

We are not puppy novices. We have had two Rottweilers that we raised from puppies - very different breed, different temperament, different learning style, different activity and energy level; in a nutshell, a different kind of dog altogether, but we understand how to teach basic obedience nonetheless. 

The issue that we have had is that every training tip and trick we know from years of dog ownership has been useless on Daisy. I promise you that we did not just get this puppy, neglect to attempt any training, ship her off to obedience school and expect her to come back perfect. We have always, from the time she came home, worked on basic obedience and we continue to do so daily. The reason that we sent her to obedience school is because we were baffled that none of the usual tried and true ways of teaching obedience were working for us, so we felt that we needed additional help. 

I will concede that this was our first attempt with the e-collar and we were using it as instructed by the trainer. However, I think there may be some misunderstanding as to how we were using it - the intensity was very low to begin with. The reason we used a higher intensity after awhile was because the trainer indicated every dog has a different threshold for what will get their attention and what they can feel. On an e-collar with settings from 1-10, we were starting at one and increasing to 3. The highest we ever used was 4. I felt it myself on my bare finger and it was more annoying than painful. Just want to clarify that we weren't following her around inflicting pain in an effort to make her behave. Regardless, we stopped using the collar when it was evident that it was not effective - perhaps because we were not using it correctly. Not disputing that. 

There have been a lot of good suggestions here, including several ideas that we have not tried, so that was my goal in posting here - to see if anyone else had ideas that hadn't occurred to us yet. While I certainly don't think there is anything "wrong" with her, she is undoubtedly the most challenging dog I have ever owned and we clearly need to be doing something differently with her. As I have said before, I've come here because I feel that WE have failed as the dog owners, not that I think the dog is a failure. 

I apologize if this comes off as angry - I don't mean it that way; I just take a bit of offense to being categorized as a "typical" dog owner who gets a puppy without realizing how much time, attention and work is involved, neglects basic obedience training and then blames the dog, because it could not be further from the truth.


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

I don't think the point of SheetsSM's post was to insinuate that you're a "typical" dog owner, I think it was to say that regardless of how you're teaching Daisy, she still does not understand basic foundational obedience. It's not your fault, every dog is different, you might just have to think a little bit outside the box.


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

Hey Kendra, I've been reading your posts from the first one and I am able to profile a pattern.
You started out very full of anxiety. There were very few positive mentions concerning Daisy herself and even fewer about your situation.
Couple pages in the positives mentioned out numbered the negative. Some posts seem to have you re-examine Daisy's structure and your family's structure regarding Daisy. Looking for where you and the family could give Daisy more chances.
Then you give us the silly and giggles Daisy. There was a detection of seeing your girl making you laugh and feel good about her, even if it was for a few minutes. 
Finally you get to the point of defending your girl. You have a very strong bond and it's all positive. That's important.
I know my first post read pretty much about the new baby arriving and how that would fit in with Daisy. 
I was wrong. 
I think you have the patience, fortitude, knowledge and the much needed tenacity to make this work.


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## karthik (Mar 15, 2009)

Hey, I don't want to add anything new in terms of advice. I just want to say I understand what you are going through. Lots of hugs from my end. Hope things work out ok.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I think you are doing a great deal right with Daisy. Not many people would put the time and effort you have into a very difficult puppy. She is clearly in the middle of the terrible teenager stage too.

I think what you have is a dog bred from apparently very high drive working lines. She has working drive in spades. Look for things that you can teach her to do that will satisfy her need to "work". Teach her names of toys and ask her to go get specific ones, teach her to put them in her toy box, etc. Check into a "nose work" class, this would be a fun thing to learn together so you can hide a search item around the house and have her search and find. Just suggestions but things along those lines to give her things to work her mind. Often working their mind calms them and wears them out better than physical exercise.

One thing my instructor told my class has stuck with me, if the dog knows the command they will do the command. I don't think they choose to disobey, I think they don't understand or they don't generalize the command from a training class to a different place. For instance, down stay in a training class, bring them home they may not understand down stay in the living room or your backyard.

Just a comment about the e-collar. I am beyond relieved you are not using it any longer. Whoever gave it to you either didn't know what they were doing or didn't give you proper instructions. E-collar should not be used to stop a behavior or punish a behavior. E-collar is meant to reinforce a command that the dog already knows very well. So for instance, if you had taught Daisy "off" or "no bite" and it was clear she understood the command, you could have paired the command with the e-collar to reinforce her obedience to those commands when she jumped on your son. The way you used it, she had no idea what you wanted her to do in response to the shock. But, that is in the past and I am very, very glad you are not using it anymore, and I hope you never consider using the e-collar again.

I agree with other posters who have encouraged you to find a different trainer. I think you can find someone who can help you direct her drive into positive activities. You have already put so much into her and worked so hard, with the right tools you can make this work and in a year or so have a wonderful family dog. But she will always be a high drive dog that needs a job.

If you ultimately decide she is not a good fit for your family, I don't think you have failed yourself or her. Making sure she is in the right home and protecting your son and soon a new baby is not failure. It's making the right choice for everyone.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

I wish I had some good advice to offer. I mostly just want to say I feel for you, and I hope you can figure things out. 

I DO agree that you need a whole new training method. A trainer who starts using an e-collar on a 5 month old puppy without proper collar conditioning... is not a good trainer. 

Basic puppy training can be entirely treat based. Constant treating. For Shala, her best and easiest command was sit. She was a great sitter at 8 weeks. (Entirely taught with a treat, up over her head, butt goes down, she gets the treat. But she got the treat for months even after she knew it well). And she had to sit for everything. To go out, to get fed, to have her paws dried, to get pats, etc. Constant reinforcement. And as she learned other commands, it was the same. Constant, constant reinforcement of the good behavior. Every pocket of my clothes had kibble or treats in them for the first year of her life. Treats and love. She is 2.5 years old now and she still gets treats for certain things. 

And - she went BANANAS over kids. An approaching stroller was SO. EXCITING!! Because it meant.... there was a BABY INSIDE!!!!! Toddlers, 5-6 year olds, 8 years olds.... SO UNBELIEVABLY EXCITING. We spent months on walks working on being calm around kids. If a kid or a stroller was approaching, I would start treating, keep her attention on me as we walked by. Praising all the time. Eventually, that progressed to her having to sit as the kids went by. Sit, getting constant treats and praise for being calm. But it took a LONG time - months and months. The little girls who live right around us, she will never be able to contain her excitement around. She has known them since she was 8 weeks old. All three of them are super excited by her and so she is by them. They all adore her, and so they love when she gets so excited to see them. It's a lost cause. : But other stranger kids, she is not allowed to be like that. It's a constant work in progress. I make her sit and try to help her see that she will get their love when she is calm, not when she is overly excited. She still needs reminders at 2 years old. 

Not sure where I am going with this. But I know exactly what you mean with the excitement over your son. I do really think a good trainer can help you. When I was searching for my trainer, I looked for certification and experience. Someone with a Certified Professional Dog Trainer designation. I read philosophies of various training schools and finally settled on the one that sounded right for me. My trainer ended each class by saying, "be nice to your dog." I liked that,

Stuff like the destructive behavior... since she can only do stuff like chew a couch when you're not watching, you may just need to limit her freedom more when you aren't right there. Does she have bones to chew? Redirect her to those and praise. Shala was what I called a very "dedicated chewer." She would chew bones for hours. As a baby puppy, she was typical - tried to chew table legs, chair rungs, and her favourite corner of the bathroom vanity. But she never got to because I was always right there to stop her and redirect to her bone. Baby gates kept her from having the chance to chew much around the house - nothing was left on the floor except her toys - and so she got through that phase without ever learning to chew destructively. I think Daisy HAS learned to chew destructively, so you need to back up and start over. It might be part anxiety, too. Shala had a hard time being crated (I watched her on a puppy cam the first several weeks and months). She would cry and howl - and I noticed that she would eventually help calm herself by chewing the antler or Nylabone I left her in the crate. I could literally see it help to relax her and she would then go to sleep. I think that is why many puppies start to chew. It does ease their anxiety. But they have to learn to chew the right things - not furniture. 

I'm starting to ramble, so I'm going to end this post. I do hope you can find some good help - a good trainer. Daisy sounds like she needs a LOT of attention and training (constant) and I can't imagine trying to do it with a little one and a baby on the way. I hope it can work out.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

mylissyk said:


> I think you are doing a great deal right with Daisy. Not many people would put the time and effort you have into a very difficult puppy. She is clearly in the middle of the terrible teenager stage too.
> 
> I think what you have is a dog bred from apparently very high drive working lines. She has working drive in spades. Look for things that you can teach her to do that will satisfy her need to "work". Teach her names of toys and ask her to go get specific ones, teach her to put them in her toy box, etc. Check into a "nose work" class, this would be a fun thing to learn together so you can hide a search item around the house and have her search and find. Just suggestions but things along those lines to give her things to work her mind. Often working their mind calms them and wears them out better than physical exercise.
> 
> ...


I have put a collar on Gunner and Radar before 5 months. BUT and I mean a big BUT. They knew the corrections were a command they had been corrected for by other methods. They are not mature enough to understand collar corrections before 6 months unless it is done properly. You can't just go to an OB class and expect perfect behavior. It has to be and I repeat has to be followed up at home and consistent. As soon as a dog walks in my door he is in training. All day every day. You have to back up commands not plead until it is done. I tell them once! If they do not comply then I will make sure they do it. I use a collar in the field but very seldom around the house (except for yard work). There other methods for compliance without undue force and at 5 months it won't be always with a treat. Ultimate goal is obedience without the need for a collar.


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