# I'm just so very happy with the Prong Collar..



## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

are you "popping" or is the collar correcting him just when he pulls against it?


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Oh no...no popping....

I may "guide" him but it seems self-correcting.


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

what did you use before the prong?


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## S-Dog's Mom (Jan 9, 2009)

Let me tell you, I LOVE our prong. Actually, I have only used it about 5 times, and for the most part, Simon has learned not to pull.
I used to use it for our beagle, (followed his nose at ALL costs and used to choke himself)
Simon was a terrible puller, and I tried EVERYTHING, no-pull harness, halti, nothing worked for us.
I mentioned the prong to our trainer, and you would have thought I had mentioned that I was thinking of beating him, so I didn't try it. (I had previous experience with it, and told her I'd never even think of pulling on it, but she just said it was absolute torture on them). I didn't quite agree, but I figured times had changed (It's been about 10 years).
Well, after a little bit of encouragement here, I went out and bought one and I was SOOOOOOOO happy!
It's frustrating when you cannot control your dog, and you really want to walk him. (Simon is almost never leashed).
Glad it's working for you, and you will find that soon you may not need it at all.


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## bwoz (Jul 12, 2007)

There's a prong that has a clip so you don't have to take the links off and on. MUCH easier IMHO. It definitely helped me show Banner what it was I wanted. He was just too out of his mind to try to go greet everyone. Didn't even care about roast beef slices to redirect his attention. Here's the link if you were interested......http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cf...ame/Herm_Sprenger_Quick_Release_Prong_Collars
The Sprenger one I have has a little bit different of a clip, but basically the same as the one pictured. And there is a dead ring to attach to so there's no tightening of the collar if you don't need to use that.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Bock said:


> what did you use before the prong?


We've used the choke chain mostly.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

bwoz said:


> There's a prong that has a clip so you don't have to take the links off and on. MUCH easier IMHO. It definitely helped me show Banner what it was I wanted. He was just too out of his mind to try to go greet everyone. Didn't even care about roast beef slices to redirect his attention. Here's the link if you were interested......http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cf...ame/Herm_Sprenger_Quick_Release_Prong_Collars
> The Sprenger one I have has a little bit different of a clip, but basically the same as the one pictured. And there is a dead ring to attach to so there's no tightening of the collar if you don't need to use that.


Thank you. Getting the thing on causes me some issues. I'm embarrassed to say that my 7 year old does better then me.


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## Alohaimee (Feb 15, 2009)

I love my prong collar too! We tried the halti, a harness, treats...ug. I had our trainer come with me to the pet store and fit him properly and I never have to pop it! Just having it on is enough to control Max. I agree that it just sort of guides him naturally while we are walking. He does pull sometimes to greet people, but will think better of it after he starts to pull and will sit and wait for me to tell him it's ok. 

I'm so glad I am not the only one who uses it. I felt terrible at first, but it helps so much and he doesn't seem to mind it at all!!


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

I love the pictures of your dogs Alohaimee


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Alohaimee said:


> I'm so glad I am not the only one who uses it. I felt terrible at first, but it helps so much and he doesn't seem to mind it at all!!


There is a lot of misperception about the collar. Its a shame. Its the most gentle and I dare say the least harmful way of taking Lucky on a walk....

Lucky pops his own chain on a regular leash or choke.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I have used just about everything out there and had the best results with the prong collar


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## Alohaimee (Feb 15, 2009)

It is a shame there is such a negative association with the prong collars! And thanks Finntastic!


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

Maybe I need to try the prong collar for mine, at least people wouldn't think they have a muzzle on. Its a halti....LOL


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I've become less and less a fan of the prongs the more I learn about the injuries they can cause. I know I may be walking into it here, but I'd recommend that you don't put anything around your dog's neck that you aren't willing to put around your own. I don't think I'd be willing to put a prong collar around my own neck and give it a yank, so there's no way it's going on my dogs. 

I'm not trying to paint anybody as a bad owner here (quite the contrary), but I do have strong feelings, and I think the contrary point of view needs to be aired. Prongs may have applications in rehabilitating dogs with extreme problems (though I'm not even convinced of even that use), but as a solution for pulling, they just don't seem humane to me when positive training is a viable alternative.


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## bwoz (Jul 12, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> I've become less and less a fan of the prongs the more I learn about the injuries they can cause. I know I may be walking into it here, but *I'd recommend that you don't put anything around your dog's neck that you aren't willing to put around your own.* *I don't think I'd be willing to put a prong collar around my own neck and give it a yank, so there's no way it's going on my dogs. *
> 
> I'm not trying to paint anybody as a bad owner here (quite the contrary), but I do have strong feelings, and I think the contrary point of view needs to be aired. Prongs may have applications in rehabilitating dogs with extreme problems (though I'm not even convinced of even that use), but as a solution for pulling, they just don't seem humane to me when positive training is a viable alternative.


I'm with you on that one. I actually did try it on my leg and arm first. If it's used properly it shouldn't hurt them and people need to learn how to use it first. That being said, Banner actually runs to me and sits tail wagging so I can put it on when he sees it. I don't pop or jerk the leash and we basically only use it to keep him from getting over the top excited in certain situations. I agree not everything works for every dog, but I personally have tried everything starting from a buckle collar. For me, it's helped me show Banner what it is I want from him. He was literally like a fish out of water when he saw people he wanted to go greet. Very dangerous for everyone including him (besides embarrasing and annoying too :doh and even deli roast beef wouldn't get his attention. When he slipped out of all other collars, I tried the prong. It kept his focus so that I could then add positive reinforcement to our training. Believe me I would rather just put on any flat collar and not have to think about it. But in my case, i couldn't. Thankfully, he seems to have settled down with training and being a little more mature .


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

bwoz said:


> I actually did try it on my leg and arm first. If it's used properly it shouldn't hurt them and people need to learn how to use it first.


I hear what you're saying, but would you put it around your own neck and pull on it? There's a big difference between your leg and your neck in terms of the sensitivity and possibility for injury.


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## Lego&Jacub (Jul 18, 2006)

We were given one of these from my brother and tried it on Sawyer. He doesn't mind it at all, and it did help. But... I really don't think he was "getting" it... or learning anything... just not pulling due to the way it felt. If I switched back to collar, then we were right back to pulling. So I switched back to the collar and lead and work with him every day... putting in the time and work to actually "teach" him how to walk nicely. It's going to take time, and dedication, but he's already loads better. He "wants" to be good. Just thought I'd throw this out there... that it's nice to get a break from the pulling (I do understand)... but IMHO... nothing replaces consistant training!


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## yvettelovesgoldens (Mar 30, 2009)

I have used the prong collar on my golden for 11 years now and love it. She walks so beautifully with no pulling.The collars lasts a lifetime. My puppy class trainer introduced it to me when she was a pup. I dont even use much anymore because she has learned so well with the collar on. Nothing worse then watching someone running because there dog is taking them for a walk! lol
I guess we all have our opinions and we do what works for us.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I agree with Tippykayak, at least for my own dogs.


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> I agree with Brian. Why not teach your dog to heel and/or walk on a loose leash in a comfortable flat collar? There are so many good positive methods.


Because that takes, um, _work_?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lego&Jacub said:


> He doesn't mind it at all, and it did help.


But if he didn't mind it, then why did it have an effect on his pulling? It doesn't feel good, and that's why they don't pull. It's uncomfortable. Just because the dog doesn't wince away doesn't mean he's feeling no pain. Dogs can be amazingly stoic, but it doesn't mean they don't feel the pain.


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## bwoz (Jul 12, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> I hear what you're saying, but would you put it around your own neck and pull on it? There's a big difference between your leg and your neck in terms of the sensitivity and possibility for injury.


Actually there was a bunch of us that did in class :curtain:. But I feel the same way as you, I wanted to make sure I wasn't hurting my dog. Prongs also usually have a dead ring so you don't need to use it as a choke type collar. I always used the non tightening way. Either way, it should not break the skin at all. I respect the fact that what works for one doesn't work for all and I'm glad for people that don't need any tools with their training. I just know that the prong was the ONLY thing that got his attention long enough for me to add positive reinforcement while greeting people and show him what I wanted. Oddly enough he's always been super mellow in every other circumstance. As long as people research what they are doing and not hurting their dog, sometimes you have to use different tools for different situations with different personalities.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

bwoz said:


> Actually there was a bunch of us that did in class :curtain:. But I feel the same way as you, I wanted to make sure I wasn't hurting my dog. Prongs also usually have a dead ring so you don't need to use it as a choke type collar. I always used the non tightening way. Either way, it should not break the skin at all. I respect the fact that what works for one doesn't work for all and I'm glad for people that don't need any tools with their training. I just know that the prong was the ONLY thing that got his attention long enough for me to add positive reinforcement while greeting people and show him what I wanted. Oddly enough he's always been super mellow in every other circumstance. As long as people research what they are doing and not hurting their dog, sometimes you have to use different tools for different situations with different personalities.


I agree with everything you said...I also tried it around my neck, for that matter I also tried a e-collar, If possible I try everything on my self before the dog. I will say this tho, getting a rescue dog who is 80-90 pounds 3 years of age and had no training what so ever and did what ever he want, and never walked on a leash, theres no way I would put him on a flat collar.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

bwoz said:


> Actually there was a bunch of us that did in class :curtain:. But I feel the same way as you, I wanted to make sure I wasn't hurting my dog. Prongs also usually have a dead ring so you don't need to use it as a choke type collar. I always used the non tightening way. Either way, it should not break the skin at all. I respect the fact that what works for one doesn't work for all and I'm glad for people that don't need any tools with their training. I just know that the prong was the ONLY thing that got his attention long enough for me to add positive reinforcement while greeting people and show him what I wanted. Oddly enough he's always been super mellow in every other circumstance. As long as people research what they are doing and not hurting their dog, sometimes you have to use different tools for different situations with different personalities.


I guess that's where I'm uncomfortable. If it's what's handed out in a class, it hardly qualifies as the _only_ thing that restrains a dog since everything else clearly hasn't been tried first. And in terms of its not hurting the dog, I think it works precisely because it doesn't feel good, or why else would it work? Just because it doesn't break the skin doesn't mean the dog isn't feeling pain or discomfort. If it works when a flat collar doesn't, isn't that precisely because it doesn't feel good? 

I'm sure the choke variety is worse, but the non-tightening is still going to push those metal teeth into a dog's neck whenever there's pressure.

My experience with people in classes who can't get their dog's attention is that they aren't communicating clearly, not that their dog is somehow deficient in its ability to pay attention. I feel confident in this observation because when the excellent trainer running the class handles the dog, the attention problems generally shrink dramatically. I'm making this point generally, of course; I obviously can't speak about you and your dog.

And, in the interest of maintaining the positive tone of the discussion thus far, let me reiterate that I'm trying to advocate for the position that prong collars are an unnecessarily rough and inhumane tool for training. I'm not trying to fault anybody for resorting to one or label anybody as a less than competent trainer.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Maggies mom said:


> I agree with everything you said...I also tried it around my neck, for that matter I also tried a e-collar, If possible I try everything on my self before the dog. I will say this tho, getting a rescue dog who is 80-90 pounds 3 years of age and had no training what so ever and did what ever he want, and never walked on a leash, theres no way I would put him on a flat collar.


Just because he's not trained on a flat collar doesn't mean that a prong is the solution. There are a multitude of techniques and equipment that don't involve a strength competition with the dog.


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## bwoz (Jul 12, 2007)

TippyK I understand where you're coming from, but actually it _wasn't _given to me at a class. They weren't allowed because it was positive reinforcement training only. We tried them on there just for the knowledge of what they were like and that if we decided to still utilize them at home, we would at least be trained in the proper way to use them. I'm certain that they are uncomfortable, I think that's the whole point. But it shouldn't hurt them. For me personally, I did use a buckle collar for months and used ONLY positive reinforcement training exclusively. He's awesome with everything except he goes out of his mind when he sees people. He would literally be jumping around and flailing himself on the ground. So when he got out of his collar for the last time and went barrel ass toward a toddler even though I was waving roast beef around his nose I knew it was time for the next step. Luckily he stopped right in front of her and went into a perfect sit (learned from pos reinf class) but I knew that he was not in total control and I had a responsibility to him and everyone else to make sure he was set up properly to understand what I needed to teach him in every situation. I love positive reinforcement and actually use it exclusively 99% of the time with Banner because it works for him. But I'm just a firm believer that you should learn all you can from different philosophies and use the tools that can be combined safely to cater to each dog's personality.


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

> Dogs can be amazingly stoic, but it doesn't mean they don't feel the pain.


Two college friends (two young women, BTW) had two big dogs (GSD mixes) that started fighting. 
Seriously. 
Like every day.
Being college kids, they didn't have the patience to actually _train_ the dogs.
At one point they were going at it so bad in the kitchen--teeth and blood--that she literally broke a broomstick over their backs. They didn't so much as flinch.
It finally got a whole bucket of cold water to get them separated.



> There are a multitude of techniques and equipment that don't involve a strength competition with the dog.


Which, of course, you will lose. Last night Tessie easily outran my 12-year old son, who's the fastest kid on his baseball team, while carrying a stick that was about three feet long and maybe five inches across, and weighed probably 10 pounds.


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## Angel_Kody (Feb 27, 2007)

Kody always did great with the prong collar. He learned that when he heard the jingle of the prong collar it meant we were going somewhere reeeeeally good!  I never had a problem using it on him. He was a big boy and it was like power steering for him.

I learned that they are not for every dog though. I used the prong on Jester over a weekend away with him when I knew we would be around a lot of other dogs. He continued to pull regardless of the collar and it ended up irritating his neck. I felt so guilty and never used it on him again. 

I believe they can be useful on the right dog and only if used properly.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

bwoz said:


> TippyK I understand where you're coming from, but actually it _wasn't _given to me at a class. They weren't allowed because it was positive reinforcement training only. We tried them on there just for the knowledge of what they were like and that if we decided to still utilize them at home, we would at least be trained in the proper way to use them. I'm certain that they are uncomfortable, I think that's the whole point. But it shouldn't hurt them. For me personally, I did use a buckle collar for months and used ONLY positive reinforcement training exclusively. He's awesome with everything except he goes out of his mind when he sees people. He would literally be jumping around and flailing himself on the ground. So when he got out of his collar for the last time and went barrel ass toward a toddler even though I was waving roast beef around his nose I knew it was time for the next step. Luckily he stopped right in front of her and went into a perfect sit (learned from pos reinf class) but I knew that he was not in total control and I had a responsibility to him and everyone else to make sure he was set up properly to understand what I needed to teach him in every situation. I love positive reinforcement and actually use it exclusively 99% of the time with Banner because it works for him. But I'm just a firm believer that you should learn all you can from different philosophies and use the tools that can be combined safely to cater to each dog's personality.


When I see a dog who goes too wild at the sight of people, my first thought isn't "how can I physically control him more completely?" My thought is, "how can I teach him how I want him to react to people?" Positive training is not about putting roast beef in competition with fun people, since treats are reinforcers, not interrupters. I can't interrupt my dogs with a treat either when they get too excited. I can, however, now interrupt them with vocal commands that I've built over time, and I've moderated their responses to other dogs and people over time so they have a more relaxed attitude about greeting.

I agree that it's more responsible to put a prong on a dog than to let him injure a toddler—no question. But I don't think that you take elements from all philosophies indiscriminately. Pain is not an acceptable way to train a dog; you can call it discomfort, pinching, whatever you like, but it's still an unpleasant physical sensation caused by metal tines pressing against the skin. I think a philosophy that resorts to pain is not one I'm willing to use on my dog, and not one I can see advocated without raising an objection. 

I believe that responsible dog owners (like you) use prongs, but I don't believe that prong collars are a responsible and ethical training method. My comments aren't intended to indict anybody who uses one, but rather to discourage their use and to promote alternative methods. I think responsible people use them out of an assumption that they don't hurt that much, but they obviously hurt enough to stop a dog from pulling towards something he really, really likes. I'm simply unwilling to use pain to control my dog, especially when there are so many effective, humane techniques out there that build a dog's confidence and bond to his handler.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

avincent52 said:


> Because that takes, um, _work_?


Actually I think its the results that matter. A prong is not a fun thing for me...but Lucky gets all excited when I pull it out. I have seen threads where dogs hate the Gentle Leader. A supposedly more humane collar. And people have advised to allow the dog to "get used to it".

But Lucky gets excited when he sees the prong and very patiently waits as I break my fingers to get it on.

I have learned that the more Lucky ceases inappropriate behavior and the more he practices the appropriate behavior then the more ingrained and "natural" that appropriate behavior is too him. In otherwords he "reacts" properly.

So this is the best way to train HIM because he is ingraining something that will stick (hopefully). I will test him out on his regular leash occasionally to see his progress, but he will be using the prong for quite a while to make sure the good behavior outweights the bad.

Hopefully that makes sense.


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

Results do matter. But so do methods.
I can get pretty good results by whacking Tessie with a stick every time she does something I don't want her to. 
It's likely to model a behavior more quickly than treats and praise.
However, I'm happy to do it the hard way. 
I think that history argues very strongly that the ends don't justify the means.

But as I said before, Lucky's your dog and you can treat him anyway you see fit. 

allen


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

And the goldens out there who could careless about treats and praise only last so much?


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## bwoz (Jul 12, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> When I see a dog who goes too wild at the sight of people, my first thought isn't "how can I physically control him more completely?" *My thought is, "how can I teach him how I want him to react to people?"* Positive training is not about putting roast beef in competition with fun people, since treats are reinforcers, not interrupters. I can't interrupt my dogs with a treat either when they get too excited. I can, however, now interrupt them with vocal commands that I've built over time, and I've moderated their responses to other dogs and people over time so they have a more relaxed attitude about greeting.
> 
> I agree that it's more responsible to put a prong on a dog than to let him injure a toddler—no question. *But I don't think that you take elements from all philosophies indiscriminately*. *Pain is not an acceptable way to train a dog;* you can call it discomfort, pinching, whatever you like, but it's still an unpleasant physical sensation caused by metal tines pressing against the skin. I think a philosophy that resorts to pain is not one I'm willing to use on my dog, and not one I can see advocated without raising an objection.
> 
> I believe that responsible dog owners (like you) use prongs, but I don't believe that prong collars are a responsible and ethical training method. My comments aren't intended to indict anybody who uses one, but rather to discourage their use and to promote alternative methods. I think responsible people use them out of an assumption that they don't hurt that much, but they obviously hurt enough to stop a dog from pulling towards something he really, really likes. I'm simply unwilling to use pain to control my dog, especially when there are so many effective, humane techniques out there that build a dog's confidence and bond to his handler.


I agree and I also use command words. But it was the prong that gave him the focus so I could show him what it was that I wanted. Away from distractions, we never used a prong. When we walk, we get bombarded by the neighborhood which is good. But when he was younger, all his focus went out the window. I never said I follow all philosophies indiscriminately, that would make me a sheep :. I just learn all I can so I can take away what I feel may work. I never advocate pain and the way I have used a prong, I know I didn't cause him any. I'm glad your training methods have worked so well for you. We're actually pretty much weaned off of the prong but for us it's been a good tool.


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## Merlins mom (Jun 20, 2007)

Maggies mom said:


> I agree with everything you said...I also tried it around my neck, for that matter I also tried a e-collar, If possible I try everything on my self before the dog. I will say this tho, getting a rescue dog who is 80-90 pounds 3 years of age and had no training what so ever and did what ever he want, and never walked on a leash, theres no way I would put him on a flat collar.


I can definitely relate to that! I had a foster that would have pulled me anywhere he wanted (including down to the ground) if I hadn't used the prong collar. He was only here a few weeks.....not quite enough time to train. But you still want to get them out there for exercise, so the prong it was. Safety for both of us! 

I used the prong with Merlin when he was younger. Though he'll still pull me a bit when we go somewhere new, he's pretty good on a flat collar now. The prong was given to us by the instructor of our obedience class at the local kennel club.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Maggies mom said:


> And the goldens out there who could careless about treats and praise only last so much?


I trained a Golden who could have cared less about food, especially when he was excited, had a very high prey drive, and was very social with people. The key was finding ways to reinforce him, not to bribe him with food. A dog does not have to be foody for positive reinforcement to work. For Gus, praise and toys reinforced his behavior. They weren't enough to hold his attention over a bird or a friendly stranger, but we were able to build to those encounters by practicing in controlled situations.

And again, keeping control of a dog with positive reinforcement isn't about the reinforcement being stronger than the distraction.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

bwoz said:


> I never advocate pain and the way I have used a prong, I know I didn't cause him any. I'm glad your training methods have worked so well for you. We're actually pretty much weaned off of the prong but for us it's been a good tool.


I still don't really understand how it works if it's not causing pain. It would certainly cause me pain to have even moderate pressure applied with metal tines to my neck. But we can definitely agree that weaning a dog off it is a good thing.


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## bwoz (Jul 12, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> I still don't really understand how it works if it's not causing pain. It would certainly cause me pain to have even moderate pressure applied with metal tines to my neck. But we can definitely agree that weaning a dog off it is a good thing.


The prongs are not supposed to be sharp or painful to the touch. I use a small link one also and the collar should be fitted so there is barely any pressure at all. I guess if I had to, I would compare it to someone hysterical being held by their shoulders to be calmed down. If it's done incorrectly and roughly it could definitely hurt, but if it's done correctly and gently it could help someone focus. Again all JMHO and I don't think it's a blanket tool for all dogs and people in every situation


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

bwoz said:


> The prongs are not supposed to be sharp or painful to the touch. I use a small link one also and the collar should be fitted so there is barely any pressure at all. I guess if I had to, I would compare it to someone hysterical being held by their shoulders to be calmed down. If it's done incorrectly and roughly it could definitely hurt, but if it's done correctly and gently it could help someone focus. Again all JMHO and I don't think it's a blanket tool for all dogs and people in every situation


That is very good description. I was thinking its like firmly holding a childs hand in the store.


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

avincent52 said:


> Results do matter. But so do methods.
> I can get pretty good results by whacking Tessie with a stick every time she does something I don't want her to.
> It's likely to model a behavior more quickly than treats and praise.
> However, I'm happy to do it the hard way.
> ...


When your "puppy" is 65-70lbs and dragging your child down the street you may rethink the prong. Griff lunged for play with another dog while we were on a walk (I was walking him) and he face planted my son in the street. 

I'm a small frame and have arthritic hands and yes, we still need more training but if I can't control him then I can't train him. These dogs are smart enough to realize that.

If I didn't use the prong with Griff I wouldn't be able to walk him like I do and he loves it so. And yes, I did try it on myself first because I fought the notion of the prong for so long. It gives an even pressure - it's actually much kinder than a choke collar. It is uncomfortable, not painful. If it is painful to your dog then it's not on properly.

I have the type with the easy release as these fingers would not be able to use the regular prong. If you do get the easy release, I recomend giving it a shake and pull to make sure it's fastened properly because if it's not, it will literally fall off your dog.

One of the articles that sold me on the prong collar:
http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

If you put good quality time in with a puppy, learning to target and heel, then you don't end up with an adult dog who pulls kids down the street without a prong collar. 

Unless the dog is completely cooped up and never allowed to run and get tired&fulfilled, there is no reason a basically sane and stable golden can't learn to walk pleasantly. Hard running an hourish a day and a good quality CGC class is more humane than a prong collar imo. Even if you can get the same results from brute force as from positive training, it doesnt create the same ability to learn and relate with humans in the dog. 

We have a 15 month old and a 21 month old who walk nicely on loose leashes with 4 year old Kate, 7 year old Keller, and 9 year old Gracie. 

That took 30 minutes nearly every day from age 3 months to age 8 months, but now they are easy on leashes for life, no prongs or chokes or shocks required. To me, it is about time and the prong collar is a short cut that gets results for the human without truly educating the dog.

I can see a prong collar temporarily with a large dangerous dog who comes as an adult with no training, but not for long. However, for a nice golden puppy who comes home at 7 to 12 weeks, I really think training & educating is much better.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Griffyn'sMom said:


> One of the articles that sold me on the prong collar:
> http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm


Oddly enough, this same page makes me feel more confident that the collars are inhumane tools. It's instructions for fitting prong collars tightly and high on the neck, so they're more effective. Here's an example, from that page, of a "properly" fitted prong collar:










I don't even keep buckle collars nearly that tight.


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## bwoz (Jul 12, 2007)

For me, the prong has worked well in the situations where I felt that I needed to use it. And it wasn't for lack of exercise or other training. Banner has never had so much as a scratch from this collar and I checked every time because I really am not out to hurt my dog. I guess I just don't feel comfortable generalizing any one type of blanket training for every dog and situation. I certainly haven't been trying to push for any type of tool or method, just simply sharing. I'm glad that other methods and tools are out there and that we all have choices.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

The area high behind the ears is a good place for any collar. It is how the Gentle Leader works, choke chains. Its a safer place to be as you don't want any collar to stress the vocal cord area. It is also a place where the dog can most easily feel pressure from any collar. Sometimes I think the vocal cord area is the "numb" area on Lucky.

A prong needs to be snug. The dog is sensive not only when he pulls but also at the _start_ of a pull. The damage comes when its loose. You don't want a dog to start to pull, lunge out thinking he has free rein and yanking himself (which happens on a choke chain and flat collar quite often.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

bwoz said:


> The prongs are not supposed to be sharp or painful to the touch. I use a small link one also and the collar should be fitted so there is barely any pressure at all. I guess if I had to, I would compare it to someone hysterical being held by their shoulders to be calmed down. If it's done incorrectly and roughly it could definitely hurt, but if it's done correctly and gently it could help someone focus. Again all JMHO and I don't think it's a blanket tool for all dogs and people in every situation


If they were sharp, they absolutely would puncture the skin, so I know they can't be. Still, even a dull fork against the neck would qualify for me as painful, though less likely to sever arteries than a sharp one.

I find the analogy to holding the shoulders to be a false one. Perhaps if you firmly held a person will dull spikes on your hands, then yes. I'm not sure why prong advocates think that the tines are somehow comforting restraints. If I were panicking and somebody firmly pushed prongs into my neck, I might stop thrashing around, but I certainly wouldn't feel comforted.

The equipment works by causing discomfort, and I'm not 100% clear how that can be denied. Using pain to control a rowdy dog simply is not the most effective, ethical technique.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I honestly believe the prong is not painful. I do think the anology of holding someone by the shoulder or a firm grip on someones hand to communicate control is a good analogy. People who use the prong, know their dog enough to know what the tool is doing and what it is not doing.

So its a "we can agree to disagree" moment.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> The area high behind the ears is a good place for any collar. It is how the Gentle Leader works, choke chains. Its a safer place to be as you don't want any collar to stress the vocal cord area. It is also a place where the dog can most easily feel pressure from any collar. Sometimes I think the vocal cord area is the "numb" area on Lucky.
> 
> A prong needs to be snug. The dog is sensive not only when he pulls but also at the _start_ of a pull. The damage comes when its loose. You don't want a dog to start to pull, lunge out thinking he has free rein and yanking himself (which happens on a choke chain and flat collar quite often.


First of all, halter-style collars work by turning the dog from the front of the head, not by choking the neck. That's why I'd strongly advocate for them over a prong. The have the added benefit of turning the dog's attention back to the handler.

A prong needs to be snug because it's such a dangerous thing to put around a living being's neck. Yank those tines into the wrong area of a dog's throat, and you could injure him badly. But snugness won't completely protect the dog in the event of a lunge or other sudden, unexpected movement. Good position lessens the chance of injury, but it doesn't eliminate it.

Furthermore, a lunge is a _training_ issue, not a problem that should be solved with equipment. That's, I think, the big disconnect between me and those who advocate the use of prong collars. When you put a prong on a dog with undesirable behaviors, it's a quick fix. You get the results you want and the dog isn't visibly distressed or injured, so it looks like success, but you haven't trained the dog to respond to you in the way you want, and that equipment has not helped you foster a positive relationship and exchange with the dog

Alternative methods can both eliminate the lunging and avoid causing that pain in the interim. They allow you to build a relationship with your dog so obedience comes out of working together, not out of force. Sure, you can work with the prong towards a day when you don't need it, but all those days in the interim you're causing your dog pain, and that's simply unacceptable to me.

I understand that those of you that use the prongs feel they've worked for you, and that my comments that they aren't ethical probably provoke some defensiveness, but I urge you to strongly consider the huge variety of methods available to help with undesirable leash behavior instead of continuing with a piece of equipment that looks and feels more like a medieval torture device than something that belongs on an animal.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> So its a "we can agree to disagree" moment.


I'm glad we can continue to respect each other, and I think this thread is one of the most positive and intellectual ones on a hot topic that I've seen on the forum. But I can't agree to disagree when the prong is being promoted as a good tool. I'm afraid I have to continue to vocally disagree.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

My first Golden, Rusty, was professionally trained over a month-long boarding period (I was in the hospital, and he needed boarding anyway, and it didn't cost much more). He was trained with a prong collar, and I was taught how to do it properly when he was turned over to me. They took a good hour with me doing it. After another 6 months I didn't need it any more and moved to a standard collar. The whole thing never really seemed to bother him. He was trained by the company that trained the San Diego Police Dogs. Different course of training, of course


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## bwoz (Jul 12, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> If they were sharp, they absolutely would puncture the skin, so I know they can't be. Still, even a dull fork against the neck would qualify for me as painful, though less likely to sever arteries than a sharp one.
> 
> I find the analogy to holding the shoulders to be a false one. Perhaps if you firmly held a person will dull spikes on your hands, then yes. I'm not sure why prong advocates think that the tines are somehow comforting restraints. If I were panicking and somebody firmly pushed prongs into my neck, I might stop thrashing around, but I certainly wouldn't feel comforted.
> 
> The equipment works by causing discomfort, and I'm not 100% clear how that can be denied. Using pain to control a rowdy dog simply is not the most effective, ethical technique.


Absoloutely the prong causes discomfort with pressure, that's the point. I used it _in addition_ to other methods to help me keep my dog's focus on me so I could show him what I wanted. In a perfect world I wouldn't need to use a tool of any kind, and actually didn't for about a year. But in real life for me it wasn't doing enough. I live in a neighborhood with tons on kids and I had to work really hard to make sure I had control over my dog. Not using a tool didn't work well enough. Wish it had done the trick but it didn't. I guess maybe it's a different perception of what is hurtful or ethical as you mentioned? I have no problem giving someone's hand a little "squeeze" to redirect them if explanations alone aren't doing enough. On the other hand, I wouldn't just go right to that point without trying to explain first. I hope I'm making sense. Like it's been said, I'm glad that we are all able to have this kind of discussion because I know we are all truly passionate about our dogs. And I respect the fact that all of us can have different philosophies in general and not be pushing any of our beliefs on each other. I think that speaks volumes about us Golden people .


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

bwoz said:


> Absoloutely the prong causes discomfort with pressure, that's the point. I used it _in addition_ to other methods to help me keep my dog's focus on me so I could show him what I wanted. In a perfect world I wouldn't need to use a tool of any kind, and actually didn't for about a year. But in real life for me it wasn't doing enough. I live in a neighborhood with tons on kids and I had to work really hard to make sure I had control over my dog. Not using a tool didn't work well enough. Wish it had done the trick but it didn't.


That's exactly where I want to focus the discussion. If I'm training my dog and I don't feel I have control over him when he's on the leash, I look at it as _my failure_ to communicate properly. By and large, dogs (and this goes double for Goldens) will do what we ask if we communicate properly with them and habituate the responses we want to see.

I could _control_ my recalcitrant dog with a whip if I so chose, but I regard it as way over the line of acceptable treatment of an animal. If the only way I could keep him under restraint was with that whip, I would do anything to avoid using it. I'd figure I wasn't doing something right in terms of working _with_ him and that the solution was to improve my own skills and find a way, not to wean him off the whip over time.

I realize that the whip is an exaggerated analogy, but I'm using it to illustrate that it simply isn't a good idea to use pain and discomfort to force a dog's compliance. A prong is much closer to acceptable than a whip in my book, but it still crosses that line and is a constant negative stimulus to achieve a desired result.

Obviously I'm not going to end people's use of it when they've met with success Since my argument basically involves asking those who do use it to admit that they've done wrong by their dogs, I don't really expect to see a huge reversal from the opposing posters on this thread. I do, however, hope I can persuade those of you that do use it to try other alternatives and anybody out there thinking of using it to exhaust their positive options and work on their own training skill rather than resorting to causing their dogs pain.


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## bwoz (Jul 12, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> That's exactly where I want to focus the discussion. *If I'm training my dog and I don't feel I have control over him when he's on the leash, I look at it as my failure to communicate properly.* By and large, dogs (and this goes double for Goldens) will do what we ask if we communicate properly with them and habituate the responses we want to see.
> 
> I could _control_ my recalcitrant dog with a whip if I so chose, but I regard it as way over the line of acceptable treatment of an animal. If the only way I could keep him under restraint was with that whip, I would do anything to avoid using it. I'd figure I wasn't doing something right in terms of working _with_ him and that the solution was to improve my own skills and find a way, not to wean him off the whip over time.
> 
> ...


Right I agree, so that's why after a year, I decided to add a tool to help me get my dog's attention so that I could communicate with him better. I'm no expert, but I know for my dog it wasn't a constant negative or even painful. I don't think that they should be used in that way. I actually enjoy positive reinforcement and have taken many classes with several dogs over the years. Like I said before, I'm truly happy for those that don't need to use any extra tools. I guess I'm going to just step away from this one at this point. I don't want this to become an advocacy on my part for any one tool or method because I'm a really strong believer that what works for one doesn't for another in different situations and who am I to judge .


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

tippykayak said:


> But I can't agree to disagree when the prong is being promoted as a good tool. I'm afraid I have to continue to vocally disagree.


Oh definately! Basically I myself was trying to shut myself up I think this gets into more idealogical differences that go beyond the prong and nothing more I can say can....say anymore.


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

My dog's innate drive tells him that chasing something like a semi-trailer truck or rabbit is much more satisfying than some liver treat which is low in supply in the treat bag (he knows). He has gotten better with training on a prong collar, but will easily choke himself on a flat collar because he lunges at stuff in traffic despite making him sit as EVERY car passes by.

He's been through obedience classes twice, been praised by a clicker trainer running a booth at a conformation show for his down stay amongst all dogs, but he loves to chase, tug, wrestle etc. He gets at least 3miles of walking daily even in winter (we are in Canada).

He's not under exercised and he's been through the ropes, and he's collar wise. I would never discount a training tool as long as it is USED APPROPRIATELY. BTW, working dog owners use a prong as a training collar to increase drive. Depending on the level of correction and the size of the prong on the collar, it can kick your dog into over drive.

Our breeder had difficulty handling him at a dog show because of his pulling and she used a show slip/choke lead and had it right under his trachea to control him and just barely at that. I don't see that as any better especially from a person who supposedly can handle any dog.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

tintallie said:


> My dog's innate drive tells him that chasing something like a semi-trailer truck or rabbit is much more satisfying than some liver treat which is low in supply in the treat bag (he knows). He has gotten better with training on a prong collar, but will easily choke himself on a flat collar because he lunges at stuff in traffic despite making him sit as EVERY car passes by.


My dogs ignore treats too when something really fun is happening. The kind of control I've been advocating is built up over time as a habit of behavior and attention, not a matter of outbidding the distraction on the spot. If I have to wrestle with my dog, that's a sign to me that I need to go back and break down the skills in a controlled setting, not that I need a more severe piece of equipment to break through his lack of attention. I train ways to break through his attention with my voice or with a flat collar.

If he's lunging on a flat collar, that's almost as dangerous to his neck, but it would send me back to basics in my training, not serve as a sign that I should put something sharper on him.



tintallie said:


> Our breeder had difficulty handling him at a dog show because of his pulling and she used a show slip/choke lead and had it right under his trachea to control him and just barely at that. I don't see that as any better especially from a person who supposedly can handle any dog.


I don't like chokers either. They're a terrible way to control a dog. In showing, they function as a collar that interferes as little as possible with the coat and that slips up around the high part of the neck so you can encourage the right stance from the dog. You're not using it for force, though. If you need the choke in a show ring to control your dog's pulling, you're in a lot of trouble. Besides, the thin kind of choke you put on in the ring would be outright dangerous if the dog yanked on it.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

The prong collar is a training tool. Just as are slip collars, buckle collars, martingale collars, transtion collars, e-collars, treats, praise, clickers, and oh so many other tools. I have used all of the above in different situations with different dogs. My opinion of prong collars are they are a very useful tool if used properly, humanely and only in situations where they are needed. I'm not ashamed of using one, my dogs don't hate me, and I don't feel as if I have done wrong by my dogs. I am more opposed to choke collars, and think more damage is done to dogs by owners using choke collars improperly. My dogs have learned thru training and when needed a prong collar not to pull, they know how to walk properly on a loose leash. I consider myself a good dog owner, a good trainer and a good person. I have many training tools in my training bag, and know how to use all of them. And my dogs welfare is always my first priority. But I don't think I am abusing them when I pull their prong collar out when warranted.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

tippykayak said:


> My dogs ignore treats too when something really fun is happening. The kind of control I've been advocating is built up over time as a habit of behavior and attention, not a matter of outbidding the distraction on the spot. If I have to wrestle with my dog, that's a sign to me that I need to go back and break down the skills in a controlled setting, not that I need a more severe piece of equipment to break through his lack of attention. I train ways to break through his attention with my voice or with a flat collar.
> 
> .


I understand you wanting to advocate for what works for you. But you are assuming that what you advocate is the answer for all situations, all owners and all dogs. 

I was talked out of the prong on this forum in 2006 by people who had never used it who said that it would hurt Lucky. They were not accurate. And following that advice was not in Lucky's best interest.

So I will advocate the Prong as an option...not an answer.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> I understand you wanting to advocate for what works for you. But you are assuming that what you advocate is the answer for all situations, all owners and all dogs.


Not at all. I'm not just advocating for a technique that works for me. I'm advocating for positive methodologies and against a piece of equipment that is inhumane. Leaving aside the prong collar for a moment, I think it's safe to say that some methods people use on dogs that are unquestionably immoral and cruel, right? I would say, for example, that correcting a dog by beating it with an open hand is never an appropriate way to train. It's not a "method."

Now, I'm not likening a prong collar to beating a dog, because they're not in the same dogpark. I'm just trying to make the point that just because some people accept a method as acceptable or effective means I need to respect their opinion and shut my mouth. I'm not advocating just what works for me. I'm saying that using a prong crosses the line and that there are methods that are empirically better and more humane. 

I'm trying to convince those of you that use it to try methods that foster a better relationship with your dogs and those of you who are considering it to avoid it in favor of methods that work better and are kinder.

So when I see a thread saying the prong collar is great, conscience compels me to stand up and say that it simply is not an appropriate response to a dog that's hard to handle. Prongs are consistently put on dogs who would be much better served by positive training that teaches them to look to their handlers for guidance, and that teaches them to be interruptible. That's not just what works for me. It's plain old better.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

my4goldens said:


> But I don't think I am abusing them when I pull their prong collar out when warranted.


I don't think it's abuse either. It's a huge step away from abuse. I would, however, put it in the category of aversion-based training.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Where is the line between discomfort and pain? In order for a prong to work it has to cause enough discomfort/pain to be aversive. If it doesn't cause pain/discomfort the dog will not stop pulling, period. The fact that people have tried the collar on themselves is immaterial to a certain extent, the punishment or lack of punishment effect is according to the dog, not according to the human's perception and it is also important to remember that a human using it on themselves is in control of the pain/discomfort, the human understands what is going on and why its going on. To extend Tippykayak's metaphor, my poking my neck with a dull fork is quite different from someone else sticking my neck with a dull fork.

I think the choice comes down to whether you want to use aversives or not in training your dog, or maybe I should say whether you want to use aversives in controlling your dog. That I think is the differences in the bag of training tools. Treats and praise are not the same thing as prong and e-collars. As trainers, if we consider these as equals, i.e. just another tool, then why are things like whips (which cause discomfort/pain but can be used in a way to leave no permanent damage) also part of the training bag of tools also to be considered when trying to decide how to train a dog.

Believe me, I was happy yesterday when I had to pull a intact pit bull off an older male golden who the pit was humping aggressively that the pit had a prong collar on. I have also had to deal with a number of large dogs who I can control with the prong they come with, but are a bigger handful after the prong comes off. So I can agree that a dog with a prong is better than an uncontrollable dog. But, and this is a big but, I believe that the more ethical and humane choice is to train the dog not to pull without using any aversives.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

It is not inhumane. It is actually a gentle way to communicate. Lucky feels pressure not pain. Lunging against a flat collar is inhumane.

Perhaps if it were named differently.....The Gentle Touch for instance. The Sensitive Communicator. The Relationship Builder.....

It just cracks me up how marketing can make all the difference. The Gentle Leader for instance is considered humane....but some dogs just are in torchure as they get used to it. AND after researching it......it can be dangerous to a dog like Lucky.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I believe a mix of adversive and positive is more of a commonsense mix and....is more natural.

In the "real' world animals and people learn best from a mix of adversive and positive. Pure positive and pure adversive simply isn't as effective in my opinion. 

Whipping a dog is not only abusive...its ineffective and causes its own problems. So no...its not in the bag of tools.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> I believe a mix of adversive and positive is more of a commonsense mix and....is more natural.


And I'm saying the less aversive you put in the mix, the better it is for the dog and for your relationship. Every time I've been able to phase out an aversive in favor of a creative positive method, I've experienced better results and happier dogs.

For example, when housebreaking puppies, I used to slap the butt once, not hard, when I caught them during a pee indoors. My reasoning was that adding the aversive would help ingrain the message better. As it turns out, that isn't the case. A loud noise to startle them into stopping combined with lots of positive reinforcement when they pee outdoors is actually more effective and doesn't carry the side effects of striking the dog.

Same thing with leash training. I used to use the monks' "collar pop" to prevent pulling. Now I use lots of positive loose leash games combined with switching direction. And guess what? Better results and a far happier dog on the leash.

I think the prong falls into the same category. Less effective than a positive method and less good for the dog.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

If all he felt was "pressure" he would not stop pulling. Dogs feel pressure with a flat collar and they don't automatically stop pulling. It is funny how we have moved from pain to discomfort to pressure. 

As to whipping, I am sure some dog trainer could use a whip very effectively, they do so with horses, and I am sure many horse racing people do not see the use of a whip as abusive.

As to the "real" world, there are many many trainers who have very well trained dogs who do not use aversives. Not to beat the agility horse to much (sorry bad pun), but most agility dogs are trained using positive techniques only. These are the top agility dogs in the country. Not only that but the dogs these trainers use are often very high energy almost out of control dogs, yet they have been trained to exhibit extreme control over themselves using only positive reinforcement techniques.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm curious, what do the people who don't like the prong think of e-collar use in field training? I don't field train, even though I have two dogs who would have excelled in in it, but from what I understand it is almost mandatory that field dogs are trained for field by the use of e-collars.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

tippykayak said:


> And I'm saying the less aversive you put in the mix, the better it is for the dog and for your relationship. .


 I know you don't believe this but I have to say it anyway....I do think the prong is less adversive. I think it is effective because it creates a sensation of pressure...not pain. I truely believe it acts as a communication devise and helps him focus on me. This builds our relationship.





tippykayak said:


> For example, when housebreaking puppies, I used to slap the butt once, not hard, when I caught them during a pee indoors. My reasoning was that adding the aversive would help ingrain the message better. As it turns out, that isn't the case. A loud noise to startle them into stopping combined with lots of positive reinforcement when they pee outdoors is actually more effective and doesn't carry the side effects of striking the dog..


 I absolutely agree. Tapping on the nose..or ANY physical correction where he knows I "hurt' him is counter productive and confusing. 

But keep in mind your loud noise is adversive. Its not pleasent. It communicates that you aren't happy. So even in this situation you are using an adversive.

Lucky knocked over our Christmas tree ONE TIME. Only once because I screamed so loud and in such a panic that he never did it again. It was my pure reaction....and I scared the geebies out of him.

Our tone is used as an adversive. If I had swatted him on the butt for knocking over the Christmas tree, I'd have several downed trees by now.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

my4goldens said:


> I'm curious, what do the people who don't like the prong think of e-collar use in field training? I don't field train, even though I have two dogs who would have excelled in in it, but from what I understand it is almost mandatory that field dogs are trained for field by the use of e-collars.


I was thinking the same thing!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

my4goldens said:


> I'm curious, what do the people who don't like the prong think of e-collar use in field training? I don't field train, even though I have two dogs who would have excelled in in it, but from what I understand it is almost mandatory that field dogs are trained for field by the use of e-collars.


A golden local to me who is TippyKayak's dog Comet's half brother is UDT, SH, WCX without an ecollar, and Dustyrdr on this forum (*Dusty, Nugget, Hugo) field trains without an ecollar. However, I am less against ecollars in experienced field training hands because there is a thought-out collar conditioning (CC) program first. The e collar in the field is never meant to be a substitute for training properly.

This is an issue with horses too. Most people agree that a thick snaffle is a gentle bit. There are many options in the middle like a variety of curb bits, a Tom Thumb, and added noseband that keeps the horses mouth closed. . . Then there are bits that are in debate territory with some people using them and others drawing the line: gag bits, wire twisted snaffles. Also, you can use martingales (standing or running) to keep the horse's head down, side reins , draw reins- many tools& tricks. Again, people have varying ideas of what is appropriate. . . 

With dogs & horses, I see the need for extreme tools in special circumstances, but not so much for dogs& horses who have been raised from babyhood and have good dispositions. Then, it is a question of putting in the hours and hours of training that should be fun& bonding for both.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Selli-Belle said:


> If all he felt was "pressure" he would not stop pulling. Dogs feel pressure with a flat collar and they don't automatically stop pulling. .


Lucky does feel "pressure" when he's pulling me on a flat collar. It is MORE PRESSURE then the prong...but it gives him a certain message. When Lucky pulls with his flat leash he feels the pressure at a point at the _front of his neck_..not the back or sides. He is motivated to pull harder due to this pressure and when the object at the other end of the leash "gives way" (me) then he feels a sense of accomplishment. This type of pressure maybe damaging to his trachea, is stronger then the prong, and I believe its very uncomfortable..... _but it is not an adversion_. The communication is all wrong.

When he pulls on the prong and the pressure *evenly encircles* his neck...this is a hugely different experience..... this does not give him the message to pull forward. Evidently it gives him the message to wait for me. Be cause he looks back waiting for me to catch up. 



Selli-Belle said:


> As to the "real" world, there are many many trainers who have very well trained dogs who do not use aversives. Not to beat the agility horse to much (sorry bad pun), but most agility dogs are trained using positive techniques only. These are the top agility dogs in the country. Not only that but the dogs these trainers use are often very high energy almost out of control dogs, yet they have been trained to exhibit extreme control over themselves using only positive reinforcement techniques.


The real world isn't trainers. The real world is people who have jobs, children and varying situations. People who aren't trainers do what works. An ineffective way of training can always accomplish the job if you put forth the time and energy to get it done.

I would use positive means for agility also....just like I have used positive means to have Lucky pick up my dirty laundry and take it to the basket, or to control jumping. But positive training did not work for walking. So it is good we have other options that best fit the situation.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Most agility trainers are just normal people. Most of them have jobs that have nothing to do with dogs, kids, families, other obligations. Most are just people who choose to devote an hour a week for class, twenty minutes a day for training and weekend every couple of months to agility trials. And it seems to me that people who are interested in competing in the highest levels of agility are looking for the MOST effective way to train their dogs, why would they choose an ineffective way? Getting their dogs under control is just the very beginning of their training.



> Lucky does feel "pressure" when he's pulling me on a flat collar. It is MORE PRESSURE then the prong...but it gives him a certain message. When Lucky pulls with his flat leash he feels the pressure at a point at the _front of his neck_..not the back or sides. He is motivated to pull harder due to this pressure and when the object at the other end of the leash "gives way" (me) then he feels a sense of accomplishment. This type of pressure maybe damaging to his trachea, is stronger then the prong, and I believe its very uncomfortable..... _but it is not an adversion_. The communication is all wrong.
> 
> When he pulls on the prong and the pressure *evenly encircles* his neck...this is a hugely different experience..... this does not give him the message to pull forward. Evidently it gives him the message to wait for me. Be cause he looks back waiting for me to catch up.


Obviously the flat collar is not causing enough discomfort to stop him from pulling, no matter how it seems to you, so you are right, it is not an aversive, or not a sufficient aversive, but it is not meant to be an aversive.

As for the prong, another explanation of his reaction may be that the prong could be causing him pain so he stops pulling, turns to look at you and waits till you catch up so he doesn't experience the pain any more.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Selli-Belle said:


> Most agility trainers are just normal people. Most of them have jobs that have nothing to do with dogs, kids, families, other obligations. Most are just people who choose to devote an hour a week for class, twenty minutes a day for training and weekend every couple of months to agility trials. And it seems to me that people who are interested in competing in the highest levels of agility are looking for the MOST effective way to train their dogs, why would they choose an ineffective way? Getting their dogs under control is just the very beginning of their training.


 

I imagine that positive training is very integrated in agility just like the e-collar is integrated in field competition. Both work. Both may not be suitable for all dogs. 

The simple fact is....adversion techniques are better at stopping inappropriate behavior. Postive techniques are better at teaching appropriate behavior. Sometimes you need both. Sometimes you don't. With so many out of control dogs given up I would want all viable options that have proven success. 

It depends on the situation. I for one wouldn't ask a person who is using a prong coller with success to turn back the clock and start from square one with a problem. Especially since as a user...I can say that it is a very humane tool.


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

I have to agree on the haltis/gentle leader, Jack slipped his halti of today and I thought he was gonna break his neck doing it. He seen a little dog and wanted to get to it really bad. Well he did. Scarred the owner to death, but all he wanted to do was say hi..LOL

I'll have to look into something else for him, it scarred me!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> The simple fact is....adversion techniques are better at stopping inappropriate behavior.


And I submit that your claim is a common misunderstanding about conditioning that contributes to all kinds of negatives being inappropriately integrated into dog training. Positive techniques are actually much more effective at ironing out unwanted behavior. It's commonly accepted in the contemporary understandings of conditioning that aversives only work as long as the aversive is in place. They don't contribute to permanent habits the way positives do. The key is not to make an undesired behavior unpleasant, but rather to figure out how to reward an alternative to the undesired behavior.

The loud noise in housebreaking is really about stopping the peeing so there's still urine in the bladder when you go outside. It's about creating an opportunity for positive reinforcement. I agree that there's a side effect that's aversive, but that's not what helps them pee in the right place and that's not the goal of it. It's an unfortunate necessity that I haven't yet figured out how to work around.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

tippykayak said:


> ....
> The loud noise in housebreaking is really about stopping the peeing so there's still urine in the bladder when you go outside. It's about creating an opportunity for positive reinforcement. I agree that there's a side effect that's aversive, but that's not what helps them pee in the right place and that's not the goal of it. It's an unfortunate necessity that I haven't yet figured out how to work around.


Your loud noise was an adversive and stopped the behavior. The positve reinforcement outside reinforced the positive behavior. 

_You didn't use positive behavior to stop the peeing. You shocked the dog with the noise..._he stopped and lord help him...he doesn't want to go through that again.....so it was adversive. It will stick with him everytime he attempts a pee on the carpet. 

Sometimes to replace a behavior you have to stop it first...just like in the case of the puppy peeing on the carpet example. 

I don't see that as a blanket rule. When Lucky was jumping and mauling new people in excitement...it was purely positive techniques that soundly and completely replaced his jumping with a firm "sit". Just as you mentioned earlier..it took creativity and time but was worth it and "doable".


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> Your loud noise was an adversive and stopped the behavior. The positve reinforcement outside reinforced the positive behavior.
> 
> _You didn't use positive behavior to stop the peeing. You shocked the dog with the noise..._he stopped and lord help him...he doesn't want to go through that again.....so it was adversive. It will stick with him everytime he attempts a pee on the carpet.
> 
> ...


If housebreaking is carried out without errors on the human's part, a dog may only pee in the house once or twice. Most of us have a few more than that, but it's possible with that few. A handful of aversive experiences is not enough to create a lifetime of housebreaking. What makes housebreaking work is the fact that it plays into the dog's natural instinct not to soil a den area. Showing him the right place to pee is what makes housebreaking work, not punishing him for peeing in the wrong place.

The interruption is important so that the indoor peeing isn't positively reinforced. The yelling _is_ aversive, to be sure, but housebreaking doesn't work _because_ of the aversive.

And your example of the jumping is perfect. Instead of making jumping unpleasant enough that he stopped it, you showed him a way to garner positive reinforcement instead. You stopped it faster, more effectively, and more humanely than an aversive technique could. That's infinitely better than, say, attaching a shock collar to him and zapping him every time he jumps. 

I would go so far as to say that using an e-collar is NEVER the right way to stop a dog from jumping on guests. Not that it's an OK technique for some people and it doesn't work for me. It's just simply not right when there are techniques like the one you outlined. It's less effective, more cruel, and can have unwanted consequences.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

my4goldens said:


> I'm curious, what do the people who don't like the prong think of e-collar use in field training? I don't field train, even though I have two dogs who would have excelled in in it, but from what I understand it is almost mandatory that field dogs are trained for field by the use of e-collars.


I don't know enough about field training or the methods of collar conditioning to be confident in saying e-collars are _never_ a good idea, but I do know that they weren't invented until a long time after the creation of the retrieving breeds. Dogs brought birds back for a very long time before shock collars became part of their training.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

you know, I do realize that in order to use either an e-collar or a prong collar you have to know how to properly use them. I firmly believe they both have a place in training dogs, maybe not in every situation or for every dog or handler, but for some situations when warranted they can be an effective, humane training tool. I was lucky enough to attend a field training seminar with my Tess given by her breeder when she was about a year and a half old. I watched wonderful field dogs do what they do best. I also watched a dog who was out of control come to the blind, my breeder asked the owner, why isn't that dog on a prong collar? She showed her how to use it and by the end of the weekend the dog had learned how to come to the line under control not acting like a fool. She also showed us the proper way to force fetch, how to teach collar conditioning and many other techniques. Of course any tool can be misused, and if a technique or tool doesn't feel right to you, don't use it. I think the secret is how your dog acts while working in the ring, while training and at play. My dog is a joyful, happy working dog. When he is at his best his heeling is flashy and precise, his recalls are fast and accurate, his attention is spot on. And yes I trained with many collars, including a prong collar. And no, I don't need it anymore, but would not be against using it if needed. I don't think I have harmed my dog in any way, and I firmly believe that no one who could see him work or at play would think that either.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I do sympathize with first-time puppy owners who don't quite realize how crucial it is to teach good loose leash habits from day one bc they do not really understand that their 9 lbs puppy will become a 70 lbs adult capable of pulling hard. But I don't think they should have in mind that they can just buy a prong collar in six months. It is certainly a nice accomplishment when the goldens who you own from early puppyhood walk politely in a flat collar. To me, that should be the norm. Creating a dog who pulls so hard he needs prongs sticking into his neck to be attentive to his/her owner isnt the most responsible way to raise a dog imo. If experienced dog people allow that pulling, and then later resort to a prong collar, there's nothing I can do about it except agree with those who think kind, consistent training in a flat collar is a better practice. I can see why dogs adopted at later ages who come with ingrained bad habits might take lots more work than a clean-slate, receptive golden puppy. A golden, in my opinion,is an easy dog for the non-professional to train, even a high energy field style golden like Tippykayak's. In average circumstances, a golden in a pet home can learn to walk on a loose leash in the city, in the park, and in the fields with adults or kids without a prong collar.



> I also watched a dog who was out of control come to the blind, my breeder asked the owner, why isn't that dog on a prong collar? She showed her how to use it and by the end of the weekend the dog had learned how to come to the line under control not acting like a fool.


I am sitting here now with two youngsters directly from that same breeder right on my feet and yes they are firey goldens. Nonetheless, I do not believe she would be too proud of me if I came to a seminar with line manners that required her to stop and suggest a prong collar be placed immediately. Even the most fired-up field dog, imo, should walk on a loose leash in town. Again just IMO, the situation of a field trial seminar is very different from the neighborhood walk to meet the school bus. Nonetheless, achieving line manners are important to me, and the dog with whom I do field training walks to the line without a prong collar because he never got in bad habits in the first place. I would feel queasy about putting a prong collar on him rather than taking the time to show him what I want and expect in a postive fashion.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

tippykayak said:


> I would go so far as to say that using an e-collar is NEVER the right way to stop a dog from jumping on guests. Not that it's an OK technique for some people and it doesn't work for me. It's just simply not right when there are techniques like the one you outlined. It's less effective, more cruel, and can have unwanted consequences.


I can't speak for other people, because each has their own situation. I had a neighborhood filled willing kids who wanted to help train Lucky. I was a stay at home mom at the time and was home when many kids were out playing. I could train Lucky using these kids every day for the whole week. 

Could I have used the same technique today...working full-time and coming home during the dinner time hour? I'm not sure. I'm not sure I'd have the energy or the resources.

It was an excellent way to handle Lucky's jumping. But I can't speak for other people...I can only share information on what worked for me.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

I sit every week at my kennel club watching pet owners bring their dogs to our beginning obedience class. I am not the instructor, just am there as an observer. These are all pet owners, who want to teach their unruly animals how to walk on a leash, to come when called, not to jump on their kids, etc. These people all love their dogs, they are all ages and own all breeds and mixed breeds of dogs, from tiny little toys to the giant breeds. Without fail a good majority of them, those with large dogs are dragged in the door behind their animals, the dogs being choked on either a buckle or slip or transition collar. The first couple of weeks of class the same thing happens. The dogs drag their owners around the training ring, jumping, lunging, twisting and turning to get away from their owners to have fun with the other dogs. Some after several weeks do manage to calm down and manage to be half way under control. But there are always those few that no matter what continue to lunge and pull. Our club does not push prong collars, use them only as a last resort for these dogs. And if the owner isn't interested, we never push the issue. But for those people who have given up on ever walking their dogs successfully, and decide to try the prong, the relief on their faces that they can finally control their dogs is a sight to see. These are people who do not train every day, who are never going to see the inside of an obedience ring but who do love their dogs. I will never believe that the prong collar is the wrong thing for these people, it sometimes is a matter of them keeping their dog or surrendering an uncontrollable animal to a rescue or shelter.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

my4goldens said:


> I sit every week at my kennel club watching pet owners bring their dogs to our beginning obedience class. I am not the instructor, just am there as an observer. These are all pet owners, who want to teach their unruly animals how to walk on a leash, to come when called, not to jump on their kids, etc. These people all love their dogs, they are all ages and own all breeds and mixed breeds of dogs, from tiny little toys to the giant breeds. Without fail a good majority of them, those with large dogs are dragged in the door behind their animals, the dogs being choked on either a buckle or slip or transition collar. The first couple of weeks of class the same thing happens. The dogs drag their owners around the training ring, jumping, lunging, twisting and turning to get away from their owners to have fun with the other dogs. Some after several weeks do manage to calm down and manage to be half way under control. But there are always those few that no matter what continue to lunge and pull. Our club does not push prong collars, use them only as a last resort for these dogs. And if the owner isn't interested, we never push the issue. But for those people who have given up on ever walking their dogs successfully, and decide to try the prong, the relief on their faces that they can finally control their dogs is a sight to see. These are people who do not train every day, who are never going to see the inside of an obedience ring but who do love their dogs. I will never believe that the prong collar is the wrong thing for these people, it sometimes is a matter of them keeping their dog or surrendering an uncontrollable animal to a rescue or shelter.


I agree-I don't think a prong collar should be a first choice but it can work wonders, properly fitted and properly trained.


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## Alohaimee (Feb 15, 2009)

I just wanted to interject since I also mentioned how much I enjoyed using the prong collar. Maximus was a fantastic puppy from day one! He had one pee accident on the floor and never again since then, he took to training well and learned quickly. He was walking nicely after a lot of hard work with a loose leash and flat collar. 

Everything was fantastic, until he went into quarantine. He wasn't even 1 yet and it was horrific. He was locked in an 8 foot by 5 foot chain link "pen" with concrete floors and corregated metal roofing over half of the pen. Sometimes there was a big blue tarp over one side, sometimes there wasn't. He wasn't allowed any beds, and he was tossed a bowl of food through an opening in the chain link once a day. He wasn't allowed to leave this pen for 3 months. He pottied, slept and playing in that tiny little area for 3 months! It was hard to work on leash training when we had nowhere to go, so I stuck with sit stays, down stays, speak, hush, gimmie 5, gimmie 10, bang your dead, etc... we did what we could with what little space we had. I was allowed to visit him for an hour a day 4 days of the week. I came every single time I was allowed and spent every second I could with my puppy. When he was released in November, he was a diferent dog at home. He freaked out on leash and HATED his kennel, he lost his manners when greeting people, and barked at kids passing by our fence. Using positive training only, I retrained him and got him back to a place where we could both be happy. The only situation I couldn't work out was the walking. He pulled so hard he was foaming. I could change direction, make him sit, entice him with a ball or treat, use a halti/gentle leader nothing would stop his pulling. I was worried I was doing something all wrong and that he would get hurt, and called in a trainer. She tried everything I tried with no luck and suggested the prong collar (with the thick rubber tips on the end). He still pulled but after a few days of working with him he stopped pulling as hard and after a month or 2 stopped pulling altogether. Obviously, the prong collar was uncomfortable but I felt it was safer than the flat collar against his throat. We used the prong along with the other positive techniques. We would stop and turn the other direction when he pulled, he would have to sit and wait if he pulled, he would get treats or his ball for having a good "walk easy". He learned. I never had to pop the collar or yank the lead. We are making the transition to the flat collar and it is going well. We haven't used the collar in a good month and a half maybe and he isn't perfect, yet . I must look crazy when we are out running and I all of a sudden switch directions, but it works! LOL! 

The prong collar is by no means the only "tool" a trainer/owner/handler should use if it is needed at all. When it is needed, it should be complimented with as much positive reinforcement as possible, and I do think the prong collar was a great tool for us. We used it for a few months and I would use it again if I needed to. I would never just tell someone I meet to go get a prong collar if their dog is pulling. I always suggest everything else. I don't think it should be used as a quick fix and should not be a permanent solution to pulling. It is a training tool, and if the owner doesn't train the dog to not pull, the dog will just pull again when the prong collar isn't on. One cannot just put this "magic collar" on and expect the dog to have learned to never pull again. It is a lot of work and you do have to teach your dog what you want him to do. I believe that when used properly (and for a brief period of time) the prong collar will help an owner train the dog to stop pulling. I don't think it is inhumane or painful (when used properly and briefly), but I do agree that it is uncomfortable and a last resort training aid, not a permanent miracle solution.

I will never push my ideas/beliefs/judgements on others just because I think I am right. I will always suggest positive reinforcement training and I try to avoid negative training (like smacks, tugs on ears, flicks on the nose, prong collars etc...) I will never ever suggest a prong collar as an easy fix to dogs pulling on the lead, but I will not condemn the collar either as it does work (when used properly). Yes, it is uncomfortable. Yes it falls into that negative training category. Yes positive reinforcement training would be ideal. I agree that it is overused and people are uneducated on how to fit and use it properly, and that causes injuries and all the neagative associations the collar has now. I agree that it is hard work to train a dog, and I agree that a flat collar and constant work from puppyhood is the ultimate ideal. I am glad we are all adults and able to have a conversation where obviously, there is a disagreement. I do think that nobody here is going to change their opinion and this thread could go on forever. I applaud TippyKayak for having such a strong belief and respectfully standing up for it just as I appluad Lucky'sMom for respectfully standing up for hers. This forum is full of fantastic people who have time and time again displayed honesty and respect for one another despite a severe difference of opinion and that is just amazing.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Prong collars are illegal in some countries, even. Anyway, they were not allowed any of the canine good citizen classes I've taken, or by my three obedience instructors in any of their classes regardless of what level. I'm going to desist from the thread now, but I think a dog who walks happily& attentively on a loose leash is one of the great pleasures of dog owning and worth every minute it takes to train it in a kindly, mutually communicative way. I am not against all aversives- a good NO for trash, counter-surfing has its place. However, a pinch/prong collar is something I would not consider breeching my dog's trust by using. Teaching a loose leash walk has more to do with good timing & a little technique, & and friendship between dog and owner than hours and hours of time. I am just a pet owner who raised a few goldens while working full time, so if I can do it, anyone can.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I have been following this thread all along and finally decided to add my two cents.

I had a chow/corgi mix who was a horrible puller. Back in "those" days, the vets would tell you to use a choke collar. Well, every time I tried to correct her so that I could get a loose collar rather than choking her, it would pull out hair. She ended up with a bald spot on her neck. So I asked my vet what to do and he suggested the prong collar.

I used a prong on her for almost her whole life. I even started using one on Jasmine when she was a youngster because she and Maddie would compete with each other trying to be the "lead" dog on our walks. We walked 2 miles every single morning before I went to work.

I thought prong collars were the only thing I could use. I would use every reason I could come up with for why I had to use a prong collar. Jasmine might slip her flat collar, they both hated the gentle leaders, they hauled too hard on me when I walked them. I never thought that it hurt them at all and that I needed that extra control.

Then I came across the Easy Walk harness. It was AWESOME! It is not adversive, it just turns their bodies so that they can't pull. I walk all three of my dogs with one hand every single day. I personally used the prong collar because it would keep the dogs from pulling so hard on me. I knew it worked by discomfort because after not using one for a year or so, I put it on Jasmine a few years back and she stopped pulling immediately. It was uncomfortable to her. She kept looking over her shoulder at me, looking very confused. That's when I got rid of the prong collar.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

fostermom said:


> I have been following this thread all along and finally decided to add my two cents.
> 
> I had a chow/corgi mix who was a horrible puller. Back in "those" days, the vets would tell you to use a choke collar. Well, every time I tried to correct her so that I could get a loose collar rather than choking her, it would pull out hair. She ended up with a bald spot on her neck. So I asked my vet what to do and he suggested the prong collar.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your input. I do plan on using the prong as a training tool and not forever. My hope is that this will help him "learn" to walk and the prong won't be needed down the road. I feel positive about it because he does better on a flat collar when lolligagging around the yard.

The one thing that truely bothers me about the prong...is a situation where we are attacked or threatened by dogs. This did happen not to far back. I was irratic and trying not to inadvertently pull on the prong while trying to intimidate the dog away from my daughter who was in danger of getting bit. This is not a tool I want to use life-long.


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## norabrown (Jul 20, 2007)

Heidi36oh said:


> Maybe I need to try the prong collar for mine, at least people wouldn't think they have a muzzle on. Its a halti....LOL


I deal with the same thing all the time with my 2.


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## norabrown (Jul 20, 2007)

Lucky's mom said:


> Actually I think its the results that matter. A prong is not a fun thing for me...but Lucky gets all excited when I pull it out. I have seen threads where dogs hate the Gentle Leader. A supposedly more humane collar. And people have advised to allow the dog to "get used to it".
> 
> But Lucky gets excited when he sees the prong and very patiently waits as I break my fingers to get it on.
> 
> ...


I just started a thread on this very topic. Poor Delilah after a year still hates her Gentle Leader. Her whole personality changes when I put it on her. Does she walk nice? Absolutely, but it obviously is not a good choice for her because she becomes so "weird" with it on.


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

I love the prong. It works for MY dog. And yes they do learn that if they pull it is not comfortable so they dont pull. I use the prong and flat/martigale at the same time...I start off with the flat. If the dog is rowdy I switch to the prong for a while. I then switch back. I think all are tools and if used properly are helpful.....


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

The Pinch Collar (Prong) is my first choice for training all dogs, Goldens, Labs, Chessies, Shepherds, etc. It's much easier for people to be successful handling their dogs with a Pinch Collar.


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## Leia (Oct 26, 2008)

I've been reading this thread along the many pages and views. I decided to research the prong collar. Through sites and videos on how to certectly use it I decided to get one for Leia. I first started out with a flat collar with her, she pulled. Then I got a Sporn harness that is supposed to stop her from pulling, didn't work. Then I bought the Gentle Leader, helps with pulling but didn't work with controlling her fear of parked cars, I couldn't get her attention and she would still have "freak outs" So, I ordered the Prong Collar. I got it yesterday. Before I put it on her I put it on my own neck and tugged, didn't hurt a bit. So, I placed it on Leia and decided to test it by walking her out and around my car before I actually took her for a walk. She actually ate some treats off the running boards of my car!!!! She wouldn't take treats before, she wouldn't sit, stand anywhere near my car before. So, I took her for my first walk tonight using the Prong Collar and in the 7 months I've had her I had the best walk I ever had with her. She actually passed parked cars without panicking. I'm very happy with the Prong Collar.


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

Angel_Kody said:


> I learned that they are not for every dog though. I used the prong on Jester over a weekend away with him when I knew we would be around a lot of other dogs. He continued to pull regardless of the collar and it ended up irritating his neck. I felt so guilty and never used it on him again.
> 
> I believe they can be useful on the right dog and only if used properly.


This was our observation. Tucker's neck got irritated too after a long day out. We felt horrible. He just continued to pull, albeit no as hard as on a flat collar only. We switched to a gentle leader and got the results we were looking for. Prongs are not for every dog/owner.


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