# Need help!!



## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

You posted this twice...


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Is this a father/daughter breeding?


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## EChoe88 (Jun 1, 2014)

Selli-Belle said:


> Is this a father/daughter breeding?


Looks like it!


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Father/daughter breeding - no final clearances on the mom - you can do so much better - Run !!


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## Sadie53 (Dec 27, 2012)

:uhoh: I would definitely look somewhere else. To me this would be a red flag. :no:


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## grlove (Mar 27, 2015)

I was wondering if anyone has updated information about this breeder. I noticed he has no elbows done on the dogs I checked. I am interested in a golden retriever puppy. i was looking at Gambit Goldens, Overlook Goldens, Kalm Seas and Pennylane Goldens. I would love any advice. My last golden died of Hemangiosarcoma at 12.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

This appears to be a Father Daughter breeding with pretty bad hips. I would move on as the only reason someone would breed a bitch with only fair hips is for the money. The sire looks to have bad hips too.


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## alains99 (Sep 13, 2014)

grlove said:


> I was wondering if anyone has updated information about this breeder. I noticed he has no elbows done on the dogs I checked. I am interested in a golden retriever puppy. i was looking at Gambit Goldens, Overlook Goldens, Kalm Seas and Pennylane Goldens. I would love any advice. My last golden died of Hemangiosarcoma at 12.


I didnt end up getting my golden from that breeder. I got my puppy from laverys goldens in upstate ny and the breeder was really helpful and answered any questions I had. I dont know when she has having her next litter but her contact information is on her website.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Carmel said:


> This appears to be a Father Daughter breeding with pretty bad hips. I would move on as the only reason someone would breed a bitch with only fair hips is for the money. The sire looks to have bad hips too.



I don't say this to defend the breeder in question but only to address one point -- fair hips is a passing grade and dogs with fair hips are bred regularly by reputable breeders. Fair is not dysplastic and the grade is not considered to be "pretty bad." A good breeder would likely try to match a fair with a good or better but they would not withdraw any dog from a breeding program for having fair hips. 

Julie and the boys


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Jersey's Mom said:


> I don't say this to defend the breeder in question but only to address one point -- fair hips is a passing grade and dogs with fair hips are bred regularly by reputable breeders. Fair is not dysplastic and the grade is not considered to be "pretty bad." A good breeder would likely try to match a fair with a good or better but they would not withdraw any dog from a breeding program for having fair hips.
> 
> Julie and the boys


^^^^^^^^This.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

Boy if a truly reputable breeder would breed a dog with "fair" hips, that dog would have to be pretty exceptional in all other areas to be worth the risk. I'm talking titles to prove it, not just that particular person thinks their dog is exceptional. My Newf's breeder is one of the top in the world, and would NOT breed a "fair" hips dog, no matter how exceptional the dog turned out to be. It's just not worth the risk with a giant breed like a Newf. I've also seen her take dogs out of a breeding program for a lot less of a defect, like umbilical hernia. So I guess it's just back to the breeder, and is this bitch SO exceptional, that the Golden world cannot live without her genes?


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Carmel said:


> Boy if a truly reputable breeder would breed a dog with "fair" hips, that dog would have to be pretty exceptional in all other areas to be worth the risk. I'm talking titles to prove it, not just that particular person thinks their dog is exceptional. My Newf's breeder is one of the top in the world, and would NOT breed a "fair" hips dog, no matter how exceptional the dog turned out to be. It's just not worth the risk with a giant breed like a Newf. I've also seen her take dogs out of a breeding program for a lot less of a defect, like umbilical hernia. So I guess it's just back to the breeder, and is this bitch SO exceptional, that the Golden world cannot live without her genes?



Goldens are not a giant breed. I can't speak to what breeders tend to do in those breeds -- my knowledge is limited to goldens. Could you explain to me what this significantly increased risk is, in respect to goldens specifically, when breeding a dog whose hips are NOT dysplastic?

Truly reputable breeders are getting out there and proving their dogs are exceptional and worthy of breeding whether the hip grade is fair, good, or excellent. The burden on a golden with fair hips is no greater, though a good breeder would likely do their best to match her with a dog whose hips received a higher grade to promote the overall best for the puppies they produce. Our gene pool is limited enough without eliminating dogs with passing hips. Conversations like this are a strong argument in favor of OFA changing their hips scale to match what they do in elbows -- normal or dysplastic leaves much less room for misunderstandings. 

Julie and the boys


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

I think we can all agree that this particular breeder in question is NOT reputable, and here lies the rub. Uneducated puppy buyers only see the OFA statement and think, ok they have their clearances so they are ok! As far as the gene pool, there are FAR less Newfies than Goldens (Newfies have about 30,000 registered dogs in the world, and Goldens are over one million in the USA alone). Bad hips are a risk for any large breed. Spending $10000.00 to replace your dog's hips or put them down is a huge deal. If a breeder wants to take those risks, and keep all her dogs, and take back or pay for any of her pups who end up with these problems, well then the more power to her. I understand that Fair hips pass, but it also means that the chance for dysplastic offspring is greater with this dog. I could see breeding a proven exceptional dog with an excellent grade bitch, and taking that risk, but really, with so many unwanted dogs in the world, we need to get back to truly ethical breeding to better the breed, not just because I like this bitch of mine and want a puppy from her.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Breeding a dog with fair hips is ethical. Besides most reputable breeders will pair this dog with a dog with good or excellent hip ratings. 

And all this does not have anything to do with overpopulation and unwanted dogs in the world. The unwanted dogs come from irresponsible pet owners that just let their dogs breed and from puppy mills - NOT from ethical breeders. Ugh!


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

cgriffin said:


> Breeding a dog with fair hips is ethical.
> And all this does not have anything to do with overpopulation and unwanted dogs in the world. The unwanted dogs come from irresponsible pet owners that just let their dogs breed and from puppy mills - NOT from ethical breeders. Ugh!


I agree! Unfortunately PETA, The Humane Society, and most of the government does not. I'm just saying that in order for us to keep breeding these wonderful purebreds, we all as breeders need to step it up and get serious about a goal of only maintaining excellence or improving the breed! We all know that if a bitch has a hip rating of fair, we need to match her up to a better rating stud. But this breeder is not. The bad breeders are the ones we all will be judged by in the end, when the laws slam down on us....


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Well, I was not talking about the breeder in the thread.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

Sorry don't mind me. I just have seen too much in rescue just in the Newf breed that makes me mad. I think we totally agree on a truly ethical breeder having the knowledge to do what is right in their breeding program, and it's true with Newfies we have to be MUCH more careful with hips.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Carmel said:


> I understand that Fair hips pass, but it also means that the chance for dysplastic offspring is greater with this dog.



Please provide proof for this statement. Breeders of Newfies and other giant breeds need to do what they believe is best for their breed. More power to the ones doing right by their particular breed. But the decisions of one particular Newfie breeder that you know should not dictate what is considered ethical for a breeder of golden retrievers. We already have a tool for that: the GRCA Code of Ethics. 

Julie and the boys

Edited to add: I posted this before seeing your most recent response. Feel free to ignore this.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Carmel, Fair hips are passing, you are being ridiculous!!!

Not passing hips should not be bred. Passing hips should be bred. I have no idea where you get this crazy information that fair should not be bred!


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Let's all jump off of the hips subject before it gets out of control. Everyone has their personal opinions about it. Personally, I don't think Id buy a dog from a breeding if both parents only had fair hips, but that's just my opinion. Bottom line, that's not the problem with this breeder. A father/daughter breeding just isn't right.


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## Susan: w/ Summit we climb (Jun 12, 2014)

Sorry, one more hip question:

Can anyone tell me whether arthritis in later years is likely to be a worse problem in dogs with lower-rated hips? I've been assuming that to be the case, and to me, that would be a strong reason to breed for the best-fitting hips. I don't want my dog to require pain medicine if it can be avoided, and I'm sure it doesn't work as well as simply having less arthritis to treat.

But I haven't had enough senior Goldens to judge. Our only older Golden didn't have arthritis as far as we could tell.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

Alaska7133 said:


> Carmel, Fair hips are passing, you are being ridiculous!!!
> 
> Not passing hips should not be bred. Passing hips should be bred. I have no idea where you get this crazy information that fair should not be bred!


We do not breed to fair ratings in Newfoundlands if at all possible. But really my whole point is what you just said: "_Passing hips *should* be bred"._ *No *dog should be bred unless there is a vision that the breeding will be extremely beneficial to the Gene Pool. There needs to be vision and planning for the future when breeding dogs. Just reading this forum for 15 minutes will tell you why....


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

Susan: w/ Summit we climb said:


> Sorry, one more hip question:
> 
> Can anyone tell me whether arthritis in later years is likely to be a worse problem in dogs with lower-rated hips? I've been assuming that to be the case, and to me, that would be a strong reason to breed for the best-fitting hips. I don't want my dog to require pain medicine if it can be avoided, and I'm sure it doesn't work as well as simply having less arthritis to treat.
> 
> But I haven't had enough senior Goldens to judge. Our only older Golden didn't have arthritis as far as we could tell.


 I'm no expert, but having giant breeds we understand that any of our dogs can have hip problems as they age, mostly because of dogs becoming overweight and lack of muscle tone. When breeding, the good Newf breeders try to make sure there is every chance of non-genetic problems, and any breeder who is breeding to fair ratings without having a top of the line exceptional dog or bitch would be frowned on. If one is bred to a top dog with a fair rating, it's usually made sure that the mate is a very good or excellent rating.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Susan: w/ Summit we climb said:


> Sorry, one more hip question:
> 
> Can anyone tell me whether arthritis in later years is likely to be a worse problem in dogs with lower-rated hips? I've been assuming that to be the case, and to me, that would be a strong reason to breed for the best-fitting hips. I don't want my dog to require pain medicine if it can be avoided, and I'm sure it doesn't work as well as simply having less arthritis to treat.
> 
> But I haven't had enough senior Goldens to judge. Our only older Golden didn't have arthritis as far as we could tell.



That's a really great question and I would love to know the answer to it.... but I just don't think anyone has ever really compiled that kind of data so anyone else's anecdote wouldn't really tell you enough to give a solid answer. I would imagine, when you are talking about hips that are not dysplastic, that the condition the dog is kept in has a very strong bearing on eventual outcome. But, for that matter, so does the sports someone has chosen with their dogs. Agility dogs have it much tougher on the joints than obedience dogs do. Field dogs have it much rougher on the joints than dock divers. Etc, etc. As a former athlete, I know I have a lot more aches and pains than some friends who have remained in shape with a less intense regimen than I once held. There is always a trade off somewhere. 



Carmel said:


> We do not breed to fair ratings in Newfoundlands if at all possible. But really my whole point is what you just said: "_Passing hips *should* be bred"._ *No *dog should be bred unless there is a vision that the breeding will be extremely beneficial to the Gene Pool. There needs to be vision and planning for the future when breeding dogs. Just reading this forum for 15 minutes will tell you why....


Again, goldens are not Newfies... and they are not a giant breed. I'm confused that you say your whole point was that dogs with passing hips should be bred when you started this whole thing off by saying dogs with fair hips (a passing grade) should not be bred. In fact, you referred to fair hips as"pretty bad" in your first post and suggested that any breeder who would breed a bitch with "only" fair hips is only in it for the money. You also claimed there was a significantly increased risk to breeding a dog with fair hips. After that it seemed like you had backed down from that statement but since you continue to suggest that breeding dogs with fair hips carries some increased risk that needs to be over and above justified - I am again going to ask that you please provide some proof to back it up. You are free to feel however you like about fair hips and to avoid breedings where a dog with fair hips is involved but that doesn't make breeding a dog with fair hips wrong, risky, or greedy. 

I agree with the latter half of your post and that the breeder in question appears to be one that does not take the larger picture into consideration -- again, none of this is said in defense of that particular breeder. 

Julie and the boys


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

Just to answer, you say that you are not talking about this particular breeder, and my first statement about breeding to fair hips is only to make money, WAS directed to this breeder. Look at what she's being bred to! But can you honestly tell me that a truly serious hobby breeder is going to be happy about a fair hip rating? Can you honestly tell me that even in the Golden world this is not the cause for even a tiny bit of concern. That if you had the same lines you could breed to with excellent hips, you would pass that bitch up and breed to the "fair" just because she's in heat? My point again is, there is a difference, and unless you know what you are doing, you could be going downhill from the whole point of trying to get this out of the gene pool. Most back yard breeders have no idea what they are doing. Most puppy mills don't care. Most serious breeders that I know take a step back from a fair, and maybe re-evaluate the situation. Here is the pictures from OFA and there IS a difference.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I would be more concerned about a dog with excellent hips who has a pedigree full of dysplastic relatives than a dog with fair hips with a pedigree full of good and excellents. Theoretically you could breed two dysplastic dogs and end up with one offspring who is excellent. I still would not touch that excellent with a ten foot pole. You can't look at clearances in a vacuum.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I would be more concerned about a dog with excellent hips who has a pedigree full of dysplastic relatives than a dog with fair hips with a pedigree full of good and excellents. Theoretically you could breed two dysplastic dogs and end up with one offspring who is excellent. I still would not touch that excellent with a ten foot pole. You can't look at clearances in a vacuum.


That's my point. We should be trying to get this OUT of the gene pool. Period. Whether it's the relatives that are dysplastic, or the Fair that has a worrying lack of bone around the femur head, these should be evaluated. Saying that you are MORE concerned about an excellent with bad relations than a fair to me is just another justifying argument, when my hope is that we are ALL on the same page to get this serious health issue OUT of our beloved dogs bloodlines. If a back yard breeder does not have the knowledge or a mentor to help them evaluate their breedings, and take these issues into consideration, and breed anyway, I think YES, they are just in it for the money.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Carmel said:


> That's my point. We should be trying to get this OUT of the gene pool. Period. Whether it's the relatives that are dysplastic, or the Fair that has a worrying lack of bone around the femur head, these should be evaluated. Saying that you are MORE concerned about an excellent with bad relations than a fair to me is just another justifying argument, when my hope is that we are ALL on the same page to get this serious health issue OUT of our beloved dogs bloodlines. If a back yard breeder does not have the knowledge or a mentor to help them evaluate their breedings, and take these issues into consideration, and breed anyway, I think YES, they are just in it for the money.



No. Fair is not dysplastic so you shouldn't be equating it to dysplastic. Plus you also need to remember that these films are subjectively evaluated. So one submission could come back fair and the same, if evaluated by different people, could come back good. You are mixing the issue of BYBs with your opinions on fair hips and that is not fair in the context of this discussion.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

So much to radiology is positioning. I can have a bitch with "good" hips and positioning doesn't show it and she receives a "fair." It is subjective. I have seen quite a few "fair" hips and they are nowhere near failing or dysplastic. If I know the pedigree and what is behind the bitch or the sire, a fair would not bother me at all. I have seen Excellent to excellent have offspring that are dysplastic. We try to do the best, but it doesn't always work out. I would never throw out a dog/bitch that had a fair rating!

Edit to add: Just because you see a Good...doesn't mean the hips are really good...they could really be fair. I know breeders that will try anything to get better scores. Again, my opinion!


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

I would look elsewhere. 

A father/daughter breeding on that hip pedigree? No thank you.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Carmel said:


> Just to answer, you say that you are not talking about this particular breeder, and my first statement about breeding to fair hips is only to make money, WAS directed to this breeder. Look at what she's being bred to! But can you honestly tell me that a truly serious hobby breeder is going to be happy about a fair hip rating? Can you honestly tell me that even in the Golden world this is not the cause for even a tiny bit of concern. That if you had the same lines you could breed to with excellent hips, you would pass that bitch up and breed to the "fair" just because she's in heat? My point again is, there is a difference, and unless you know what you are doing, you could be going downhill from the whole point of trying to get this out of the gene pool. Most back yard breeders have no idea what they are doing. Most puppy mills don't care. Most serious breeders that I know take a step back from a fair, and maybe re-evaluate the situation. Here is the pictures from OFA and there IS a difference.
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia



Actually, your statement in your first post was this:


Carmel said:


> the only reason someone would breed a bitch with only fair hips is for the money.


That is a general statement referring to all breeders. The truth is this breeding (honestly, I don't even know what breeder we are talking about anymore) appears not to be responsible because of the ill-advised genetic risk of breeding father to daughter, breeding dogs that are (presumably, based on comments in the thread) unproven in any venue, and failure to match dogs that are strong where the other is weak. The problem has nothing at all to do with the bitch receiving a fair hip grade. 

Please point out anywhere where I suggested a breeder should bypass a bitch with excellent hips just because one with fair hips happens to be in season at that moment (for the record, a stud owner would not have to make that choice. They could use their dog for both breedings if they thought both would be good). What I said was that reputable golden breeders do not eliminate a dog from their breeding program just because he or she gets a fair hip grade. They do their best to preserve genetic diversity by examining the depth of information available about relatives - not just sire and dam but siblings, aunts, uncles, etc - (done regardless of hip grade), finding an appropriate mate who is strong where their dog is weak (done regardless of hip grade), and proving their dogs' merits in some form of competition (done regardless of hip grade). Reputable breeders look at the whole picture, not just one piece. 




Carmel said:


> I understand that Fair hips pass, but it also means that the chance for dysplastic offspring is greater with this dog.






Carmel said:


> Boy if a truly reputable breeder would breed a dog with "fair" hips, that dog would have to be pretty exceptional in all other areas to be worth the risk.



(And your most recent statement about the gene pool going downhill because of breeding dogs with fair hips. )

Again, please provide some sort of proof for these statements. Seems odd to me that OFA would call a detrimental and risky condition like this a passing grade. 

Julie and the boys


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

My Flip's dam has fair hips. His sire has good. Flip himself is OFA Excellent. Glad his breeder didn't throw his dam out because of a fair hip rating


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

It isn't a question of whether fair hips should be used or not. It's about HOW they're used. 

If you have a dog with a Fair rating, you want to breed to something better. What you don't want to see is a five generation hip pedigree loaded with Fair ratings and Fair to Fair pairings for multiple generations.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> You have a far greater chance of getting a Golden with HD if there is no history of clearances at least 3-5 generations back. Breeding cleared animals (with a solid ancestral history in a vertical pedigree of cleared relatives) GREATLY _decreases _the risk of producing dogs with HD/ED, cardiac and eye problem. And a "Fair" is passing. KNOWING what is in the vertical pedigree helps a knowledgeable, ethical breeder determine the best way to breed a dog with a "Fair" rating. If that "Fair" dog had siblings that were dysplastic, I would not breed it. If she had siblings that were Excellent, then, yes.)
> This is why it is SO important for buyers to SEE CLEARANCE DOCUMENTATION before considering a purchase.


^^^ I thought this ancient response from Laura applied here. 

I would not touch a pedigree similar to what is discussed here. You're not just talking about hip/elbow clearances, you are talking about other health concerns that would drastically affect your puppy! 

That said, I would not touch the pedigree even if one or both dogs had excellent hips. Lack of clearance history beyond parents is a factor, but like I said overall health would be a problem too.

Our first golden came from a father/daughter breeding and died at age 6 from renal failure... considering there were other puppies in the litter who died from the same thing + the father did as well, sure bet it was a hereditary issue like renal dysplasia.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Actually, your statement in your first post was this:
> 
> That is a general statement referring to all breeders. The truth is this breeding (honestly, I don't even know what breeder we are talking about anymore) appears not to be responsible because of the ill-advised genetic risk of breeding father to daughter, breeding dogs that are (presumably, based on comments in the thread) unproven in any venue, and failure to match dogs that are strong where the other is weak. The problem has nothing at all to do with the bitch receiving a fair hip grade.
> 
> ...


 
I guess you are just the "fair hip" advocate. I'm not going to argue with you forever about this. If the panel can see a lack of bone surrounding the femur ball, even if the joint is *not* displaced, this is where the "fair" comes in. If you don't see a difference, or know why a rating was pronounced "fair", then you need to do some studying. It's not hard to find. Did you read the OFA explanation and study the x rays? Fair is not what anyone hopes to see. I suppose a new BYB could just be happy their passed, but serious breeders that are concerned about their lines try to do better.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I do not think anybody is a "fair" hip advocate, but fair hips are NOT bad by any means expecially with a strong hip clearance behind the dog. I have seen some fair hips where I thought should have gotten a good and other good hips that I thought should have been a fair. It is about knowledge!

I would really hate to think that someone would call me a "bad breeder" or someone that is not improving the breed by breeding a dog/bitch with a fair rating.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Carmel said:


> I guess you are just the "fair hip" advocate. I'm not going to argue with you forever about this. If the panel can see a lack of bone surrounding the femur ball, even if the joint is *not* displaced, this is where the "fair" comes in. If you don't see a difference, or know why a rating was pronounced "fair", then you need to do some studying. It's not hard to find. Did you read the OFA explanation and study the x rays? Fair is not what anyone hopes to see. I suppose a new BYB could just be happy their passed, but serious breeders that are concerned about their lines try to do better.



Again, no. You are missing the point. No one is "advocating" for fair hips. I think what people, myself included, are trying to explain is that fair hips - in a vacuum - is not a good or bad thing. It's just one thing to be considered in the context of an entire pedigree and breeding.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

Sigh. There is a reason why a panel of experts comes up with a fair rating. It has to do with bone coverage over the femur socket. No, the hips judged fair are not outside of the socket. The hips are not dysplastic. That's why they clear. But the bone is lacking. Perhaps Golden breeders would not like the joint to be rated anything but normal or abnormal, but Newfy breeders and many other breeds I know, WANT to know. Newfie breeders are a lot more fussy about this stuff, and if you wanted to breed Newfs you would be frowned on to keep using "fairs" as breeding stock. I'm sure you are a great breeder even if you use Fair stock. Goldens are a lot smaller than a giant large boned breed. But this thread was started about evaluating the stock of an inexperienced breeder, and no, if they don't have generations of good hips on OFA to look back on, fair would raise a flag to me. But then again, those kind of breeders could care less what happens to their puppies down the line it seems.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

To explain this further, for example, there is a prolific sire in the breed that just passed away a couple years ago. He was OFA fair but was incorporated into many breeding programs because of his attributes. He produced many champions and his legacy has continued. I doubt anyone would say that the dog I am talking about, Hobo, shouldn't have been bred. Just some food for thought...


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Again, no. You are missing the point. No one is "advocating" for fair hips. I think what people, myself included, are trying to explain is that fair hips - in a vacuum - is not a good or bad thing. It's just one thing to be considered in the context of an entire pedigree and breeding.


Sorry, you won't convince me it's a good thing. It's good for *that *dog yes. He passed. But unless he's an exceptional dog in all other areas, (which yes, a good breeder would know), he's not a prime candidate to breed. There are better options.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Carmel said:


> Sorry, you won't convince me it's a good thing. It's good for *that *dog yes. He passed. But unless he's an exceptional dog in all other areas, (which yes, a good breeder would know), he's not a prime candidate to breed. There are better options.



Again you are missing the point. There is no perfect pedigree. There is no perfect dog. There is always going to be a concession made in a breeding.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> To explain this further, for example, there is a prolific sire in the breed that just passed away a couple years ago. He was OFA fair but was incorporated into many breeding programs because of his attributes. He produced many champions and his legacy has continued. I doubt anyone would say that the dog I am talking about, Hobo, shouldn't have been bred. Just some food for thought...


And that is EXACTLY what I have been saying all along! My Raleigh is from Summit Goldens, and Hobo is his grandfather. But look at the generations of good and excellent ahead and behind Hobo. But he WAS the exception, that is the point.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Actually what you said is this, in post #8 in this thread:

I would move on as the only reason someone would breed a bitch with only fair hips is for the money.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Again you are missing the point. There is no perfect pedigree. There is no perfect dog. There is always going to be a concession made in a breeding.


You guys keep saying I'm missing the point. Yet the shelter in St Paul has hundreds of unwanted purebred goldens, most of them with joint issues or temperament issues, or dying of cancer, or blind. Why the heck are we breeding more if there is not a purpose? The Humane societies, the Vegan societies, the state governments, even the cable tv channels are starting to boycott purebred dogs and their breeders. ALL of them, not just the bad ones. We all need to start thinking of the future when breeding these dogs or they will disappear and laws will make it illegal to own a dog that is not neutered or spayed by 12 weeks. That's my biggest point. We all need to step up to the plate and hold breeders accountable or we will lose our purebreds.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Actually what you said is this, in post #8 in this thread:
> 
> I would move on as the only reason someone would breed a bitch with only fair hips is for the money.


Yup. That's the first thing I was told by the best Newfie breeders when I was looking. Like I said, perhaps it doesn't matter so much to Golden breeders.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Ok, I think I'm done here. This has become circular. Good luck to you


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

Carmel said:


> This appears to be a Father Daughter breeding with pretty bad hips. I would move on as the only reason someone would breed a bitch with only fair hips is for the money. The sire looks to have bad hips too.


This is the whole quote.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Ok, so only reason to breed a fair rating is if they are a BIS dog? How about the pedigree and clearances?


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Carmel said:


> You guys keep saying I'm missing the point. Yet the shelter in St Paul has hundreds of unwanted purebred goldens, most of them with joint issues or temperament issues, or dying of cancer, or blind. Why the heck are we breeding more if there is not a purpose? The Humane societies, the Vegan societies, the state governments, even the cable tv channels are starting to boycott purebred dogs and their breeders. ALL of them, not just the bad ones. We all need to start thinking of the future when breeding these dogs or they will disappear and laws will make it illegal to own a dog that is not neutered or spayed by 12 weeks. That's my biggest point. We all need to step up to the plate and hold breeders accountable or we will lose our purebreds.


Wow, so breeding a dog with fair hips, the breeder would not have a purpose? We have no idea the parents behind the the rescue dogs.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Carmel said:


> I guess you are just the "fair hip" advocate. I'm not going to argue with you forever about this. If the panel can see a lack of bone surrounding the femur ball, even if the joint is *not* displaced, this is where the "fair" comes in. If you don't see a difference, or know why a rating was pronounced "fair", then you need to do some studying. It's not hard to find. Did you read the OFA explanation and study the x rays? Fair is not what anyone hopes to see. I suppose a new BYB could just be happy their passed, but serious breeders that are concerned about their lines try to do better.



Why do you ignore 90% of what is in my post and then twist my words into something else? I am not an advocate for fair hips. I am an advocate for preserving the gene pool by not throwing the baby out with the bat heater. I am an advocate for breeders who look at the larger picture of clearance history in the vertical pedigree when making breeding decisions. I am an advocate for breeders proving all of their dogs to be worthy of breeding by competing in one or more venues, regardless of whether a dog' ships are fair or excellent. I am an advocate for breeders who seek mates for their dogs that will help strengthen their lines. 

Why presume to know what I do or don't understand about the hip grading system? You seem to have glommed on to one particular circumstance that would cause a fair hip rating (lack of bone at the head of the femur) while completely ignoring any of the other factors which may cause a dog to receive that rating. Such a myopic view does not demonstrate a full understanding of the larger picture that the experts consider when grading hips. So, please, do not claim expertise after reading a page off the OFA website that myself and others have seen just as well as you have or by looking at one example of fair hips on a sample x ray. There's a wonderful page I follow on facebook where many breeders will share x rays that have just been submitted to OFA for other breeders' opinions. It has been really interesting to see folks who are so well versed share what they are seeing in the x rays and to eventually find out what the grade came back to be. I am no expert when it comes to such things but it has largely increased my understanding about what to look for and how to interpret what one sees in the films. I know enough to know that interpreting these x rays is not a job I would want.... It takes way too much attention to detail for me, lol!

Let's be honest, most BYBs aren't even bothering to screen their dogs. My opinions aren't going to change what they do or don't view and my opinions as stated in this thread do not excuse their irresponsibility or thoughtlessness. Wanting to combat backyard breeders doesn't make it okay to take the broad brush and paint every breeder who breeds a dog with fair hips, under any and all circumstances, as being in it only for the money. 

Fair may not be what anyone necessarily "hopes" to see, but it is not the end of the world either.... and the grade alone should not automatically exclude a dog from a breeding program. There is a reason that fair hips are not a failing grade from OFA and there are good reasons for breeders to consider breeding these dogs thoughtfully. If you think that (in combination with what I have already said above) is some sort of radical view -- then you are right, there is no point to continuing the conversation. 

Julie and the boys


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

Sorry, I'll never think a fair rating is better than a good or excellent for future generations, so I'm done here too. And yes, I think a panel of experts, whether they are radiologists, or AKC judges, can better determine a dog's worthiness than the dog's owner. Is Hobo better than a dog that has never been out on the show circuit? Perhaps not. But he HAS been proven by the experts, and he HAS been put out there for the experts to critique, and that's good enough for me.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Carmel said:


> You guys keep saying I'm missing the point. Yet the shelter in St Paul has hundreds of unwanted purebred goldens, most of them with joint issues or temperament issues, or dying of cancer, or blind. Why the heck are we breeding more if there is not a purpose? The Humane societies, the Vegan societies, the state governments, even the cable tv channels are starting to boycott purebred dogs and their breeders. ALL of them, not just the bad ones. We all need to start thinking of the future when breeding these dogs or they will disappear and laws will make it illegal to own a dog that is not neutered or spayed by 12 weeks. That's my biggest point. We all need to step up to the plate and hold breeders accountable or we will lose our purebreds.


OK, I'm not going to get in to the hip thing, but which shelter in St. Paul has hundreds of unwanted purebred Goldens? I live about 15 minutes from there. I'd like to go check that out.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Carmel said:


> Sorry, I'll never think a fair rating is better than a good or excellent for future generations, so I'm done here too. And yes, I think a panel of experts, whether they are radiologists, or AKC judges, can better determine a dog's worthiness than the dog's owner. Is Hobo better than a dog that has never been out on the show circuit? Perhaps not. But he HAS been proven by the experts, and he HAS been put out there for the experts to critique, and that's good enough for me.



Who on here said "fair" was better??


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

And by the way, why is everyone so defensive of a Fair rating? You all are jumping on me because I'm not impressed by it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Just posting this as a fyi.... 

These xrays don't belong to me, so I removed anything that identified the dogs/owners. I know 2 of these came back Fair, and the other two were rated Good and Excellent. 

If you can tell which ones were which - you might have seen the original or have a far superior eyeball than I do, because I don't really see a huge difference between these. I think the biggest thing is these are all passing hips. 

If you see hips that came back borderline or mild - it's absolute noticeable.

*** All of these are golden retrievers.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Taking dogs with fair hips out of REPUTABLE breeding programs will not do a blessed thing to stave off PETA, HSHS, or any of the other wing nuts who would like to see the domesticated dog go the way of the dodo bird. I really can't see how you draw that connection??

Julie and the boys


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

Nairb said:


> OK, I'm not going to get in to the hip thing, but which shelter in St. Paul has hundreds of unwanted purebred Goldens? I live about 15 minutes from there. I'd like to go check that out.


Look them up. I did when Carmel died. It's only because I love to show dogs that I decided to get a show Golden.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Carmel said:


> And by the way, why is everyone so defensive of a Fair rating? You all are jumping on me because I'm not impressed by it.



Because you are giving bad advice to someone who may be reading this while trying to find a puppy. 

As regards Hobo: per your own words the experts judged him and found him lacking (lacking bone at the femoral head to be exact, since you see this as the only possible cause of a fair rating). Per post number 8, it would seem you think his owners (and all the bitch owners who used him) were only in it for the money. I hope your pup doesn't fall victim to all of the increased risk for hip dysplasia that Hobo left him with -- whatever risk that was you referred to earlier that you have yet to clarify with any semblance of proof. I'm sure you think I am being ridiculous in this paragraph but this is exactly the argument you have been putting forth in this thread. Does this help you see why so many of us are trying to get accurate information out there for those who may come here seeking it? 

Julie and the boys

PS - Hobo was a legend -- I mean no insult to his owners or to him with this post.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Carmel said:


> Sorry, I'll never think a fair rating is better than a good or excellent for future generations, so I'm done here too. And yes, I think a panel of experts, whether they are radiologists, or AKC judges, can better determine a dog's worthiness than the dog's owner. Is Hobo better than a dog that has never been out on the show circuit? Perhaps not. But he HAS been proven by the experts, and he HAS been put out there for the experts to critique, and that's good enough for me.


No. Again, misconstruing what has been said. What was said that the depth of clearances in the pedigree were more important so that an excellent with a history of HD in the pedigree could be less preferable to a fair with a history of goods and excellents. You don't look at each clearance in a vacuum and decide what is acceptable. You have to consider the whole dog and whole pedigree and remember that there is never going to be a "perfect" breeding. You will always have something less than desirable in a breeding, whether it's a hip rating a bit lower than you want, missing clearances back in the pedigree, an early death in a grandparent, etc etc etc etc. It could be anything. Show me a breeder that is breeding two "perfect" dogs - it doesn't exist. Which is why I would not pass judgment on someone who bred a dog with a fair hip rating.


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## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

Lots of relevant food for thought at the Institute of Canine Biology blog:

http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/what-does-health-tested-really-mean

http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/breed-the-best-and-maybe-more

http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/better-hips-and-elbows-maybe


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

So here's my question: What's the reason you look at hip clearances?

For me, it's to gauge the likelihood that the puppy I'm buying/breeding is going to suffer pain and dysfunction in his life. By looking at the clearances -- depth and breadth in the pedigree -- I try to _guess_ whether this puppy/litter will grow up to have dysplasia or arthritis. And I want to load the odds as much in my favor as I can.

I read a lot of literature -- scientific and otherwise -- and I am unaware of anything that says a dog with fair hips is any more (or less) likely to develop arthritis or dysfunction than one with hips rated good or excellent. If it's out there and anyone knows about it, please post it so I can learn. I'm also unaware of anything that has determined that a dog or bitch with fair hips is more likely to produce dysplastic hips in puppies. 

It seems to me that the question is whether or not the hips function normally when the dog walks, ambles, trots, canters and gallops. If they do, then the mechanism and lever operate correctly, and the dog has no increased risk of dysfunction or arthritis as compared to a dog with higher rated hips. I suppose a dog with a shallower hip set has a theoretical greater risk of dislocation in a traumatic impact, such as a fall or a collision. But in terms of the way the joint functions and how that develops over time, correct function is correct function no matter, and the taxological division is more for human purposes than determining the actual function of the joint.

Does anyone have a different view or contrary authority?

Disclosure: I am planning to breed Ziva to Hobo, so that let's you know where I'm coming from on this.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I completely agree with you, Dana. And I have not seen any data showing that a fair sire or dam is more likely to produce dysplastic offspring, nor have I seen any data suggesting increased likelihood of arthritis etc in dogs with fair hips. I would be curious to see it if it exists.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Because you are giving bad advice to someone who may be reading this while trying to find a puppy.
> 
> As regards Hobo: per your own words the experts judged him and found him lacking (lacking bone at the femoral head to be exact, since you see this as the only possible cause of a fair rating). Per post number 8, it would seem you think his owners (and all the bitch owners who used him) were only in it for the money. I hope your pup doesn't fall victim to all of the increased risk for hip dysplasia that Hobo left him with -- whatever risk that was you referred to earlier that you have yet to clarify with any semblance of proof. I'm sure you think I am being ridiculous in this paragraph but this is exactly the argument you have been putting forth in this thread. Does this help you see why so many of us are trying to get accurate information out there for those who may come here seeking it?
> 
> ...


Not once have I made a personal attack against any of you, nor do I appreciate this. Leave my pup out of it.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> Just posting this as a fyi....
> 
> These xrays don't belong to me, so I removed anything that identified the dogs/owners. I know 2 of these came back Fair, and the other two were rated Good and Excellent.
> 
> ...


But without the full picture it's pretty hard to see the "big picture" and offer an intelligent answer.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Megora said:


> Just posting this as a fyi....
> 
> These xrays don't belong to me, so I removed anything that identified the dogs/owners. I know 2 of these came back Fair, and the other two were rated Good and Excellent.
> 
> ...


My guess is that #1 and #4 are the fairs.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Carmel said:


> Not once have I made a personal attack against any of you, nor do I appreciate this. Leave my pup out of it.



I brought up Hobo because my Kira was a Hobo granddaughter so I have a pretty good working knowledge of the line, including just happening to know that Hobo was a fair. Several of us, including myself and Dana, have or have had Hobo grandkids.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Carmel said:


> Not once have I made a personal attack against any of you, nor do I appreciate this. Leave my pup out of it.



You were the one who claimed there was increased risk with fair hips, not me. I didn't attack your dog. I put your assertions about dogs with fair hips into context. Not at all surprised that you ignored the actual point of my post yet again...not to mention ignoring the two posts I made preceding that one all together. 

Julie and the boys


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I brought up Hobo because my Kira was a Hobo granddaughter so I have a pretty good working knowledge of the line, including just happening to know that Hobo was a fair. Several of us, including myself and Dana, have or have had Hobo grandkids.


I actually have one Hobo grandkid and one Hobo great-grandkid. I actually think Hobo is an excellent example of the breed. When I think of what I like in a Golden Retriever, I think of Hobo (in front in this photo).










Ziva, my puppy in the right-hand signature photo, is a Hobo granddaughter.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Swampcollie said:


> But without the full picture it's pretty hard to see the "big picture" and offer an intelligent answer.


I wanted to put the focus only on the joints themselves... but these were not poorly positioned xrays like some you see. I avoided grabbing a couple that I couldn't believe came back good considering the positioning... 

Dana was 1/2 right in her guess.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

DanaRuns said:


> I actually have one Hobo grandkid and one Hobo great-grandkid. I actually think Hobo is an excellent example of the breed. When I think of what I like in a Golden Retriever, I think of Hobo (in front in this photo).



I agree, he was beautiful. (And I forgot about Gibbs! Sorry Gibbs!!) My point was more that I wasn't attacking her puppy, as Hobo was a prolific sire in the breed and there a number of people with his relatives on here. I didn't even know she had a pup related to Hobo at all.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I agree, he was beautiful. (And I forgot about Gibbs! Sorry Gibbs!!) My point was more that I wasn't attacking her puppy, as Hobo was a prolific sire in the breed and there a number of people with his relatives on here. I didn't even know she had a pup related to Hobo at all.



Don't worry, you didn't say anything wrong. She was upset by my post, not yours. 

Julie and the boys


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. We tend to (especially when passionate about a position) state our opinions as absolutes. I know I have had my share of disagreements that stemmed from this problem where I have been on both sides. If there is evidence or facts to support a position, than it becomes less subjective. 
I think caution in stating personal beliefs or oppinions as fact is a prudent way to handle this especially in threads where normal people are coming to educate themselves on buying a puppy. It is hard enough to learn what you don't know when it comes to breeders and it can muddy the waters or even drive these OP's to buy from a less reputable breeder when threads go like this.
I find, as does OFFA Fair to be an acceptable score. Though, I would breed a whole dog and not just hips. There is so much more to consider. With that said, I was curious to look at a breed where breeders were throwing out fairs and only breeding Goods and Excelents. What I found in Newfs was not much different than we see in goldens. I looked at top winning dogs (Westminster and their Natioanal specialty award winners) and their parents. All dog where of age to have finals through OFFA. 
For the 8 dogs:
2- Goods
1 -Fair
5- no results
Now, I could not see if they are all breeding dogs so I looked at their parents.
For the 16 parents:
10-Goods
5-Fairs
1- no results
Though I was looking at hips, I did find they do sometimes breed dogs that fail elbows. 

At this point as other have mentioned the test is subjective, it is also phenotypic and not genotypic. I beleive the tests give us valuable information but, they do not provide us as breeders a way to eliminate this issue. If it did it would be simple to breed Good to Goods and never see issues. I do feel that the testing has allowed us to reduce the severity of Dysplasia when it does happen in tested and thoughtfully bred lines, but I don't see it going away based on how we test today.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Carmel said:


> You guys keep saying I'm missing the point. Yet the shelter in St Paul has hundreds of unwanted purebred goldens, most of them with joint issues or temperament issues, or dying of cancer, or blind. Why the heck are we breeding more if there is not a purpose? *The Humane societies, the Vegan societies, the state governments, even the cable tv channels are starting to boycott purebred dogs and their breeders*. ALL of them, not just the bad ones. We all need to start thinking of the future when breeding these dogs or they will disappear and laws will make it illegal to own a dog that is not neutered or spayed by 12 weeks. That's my biggest point. We all need to step up to the plate and hold breeders accountable or we will lose our purebreds.


What does this mean? How can a state government - or a cable TV channel - boycott purebred dogs? Or a humane society or whatever a Vegan society is?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

alains99 said:


> Im from new york and I've been looking for a female golden retriever puppy. I found a member from the new jersey pine barrens golden retriever club. The name of the breeder is gambit goldens. This is there website Gambit Goldens - Golden Retrievers
> 
> These are the parents of the litter that I might buy a puppy from.
> 
> ...


Actually mom has an elbow clearance, no hip clearance on OFA.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Carmel said:


> This appears to be a Father Daughter breeding with pretty bad hips. I would move on as the only reason someone would breed a bitch with only fair hips is for the money. The sire looks to have bad hips too.


The clearance you are reading is for elbows, no hip,clearance on the bitch...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

60th percentile for PennHip on the dad is considered acceptable, but mom no hip clearance, and bred back to her sire, why?


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## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

If you separate issues (not that one needs to or should in the instance demonstrated by the original post), the very high degree of inbreeding represented by a father-daughter pairing with dad's 10-gen COI already at 27% is, in my eyes, a much bigger red flag where hip health risk factors are concerned than a fair hip rating in and of itself.

My childhood dog had 5 gapless generations of good and excellent hips behind her (or normal in the years when that was extent of OFA grading). She was responsibly bred and had a COI that wasn't especially high, yet her litter still proved to reveal a genetic tipping point on a particular linebreeding direction. She was diagnosed with severe bilateral hip dysplasia at 10 months (she was in obvious pain by that time) and at least two littermates had similar orthopedic problems diagnosed before the age of 2.

There are genetic gremlins lurking in every breed, and even the best breeders deal with many degrees of calculated risk. I do NOT mean this as a knock on responsible linebreeding practices, but it is important for puppy buyers to be aware that extreme inbreeding practices (which is not what my childhood dog's breeder was engaged in) run an especially high risk of bringing such skeletons out of the closet.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I was told by a breeder that has breeding for decades that OFA only shows a portion of the picture. First of all it is so objective that the same x-rays looked at first thing in the morning, might get a different rating than if the x-ray was looked at last thing in the evening. Also you do not want your x-rays to be evaluated after the vet has been looking at another breed all day long. This breeder does do the OFA but also relies mostly on the PennHip. I am told the two together give the whole picture.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Carmel said:


> Look them up. I did when Carmel died. It's only because I love to show dogs that I decided to get a show Golden.


I searched online, and honestly didn't find any purebred Goldens available for adoption. I checked the Humane Society for the entire Twin Cities and Animal Ark. I see a few labs and lab mixes, but it's mostly pits and pit mixes, it seems. The reason that comment caught my attention is because pure bred Goldens do not sit in shelters for very long. Even poorly bred ones.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Actually mom has an elbow clearance, no hip clearance on OFA.



Well, now you have officially blown my mind. All this fuss over fair hips, and not even one in the pair? Again, there were much bigger issues with this breeding than any particular hip grade but I'm just dumbstruck right now. Thank you for pointing that out. 

Julie and the boys


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> The clearance you are reading is for elbows, no hip,clearance on the bitch...


Actually their is a prelim listing of Fair. (No follow up test and the bitch is 4 now. :uhoh: )

As far as the Sire is concerned, PennHip isn't a clearance. PennHip is an evaluation and ranking in relationship to other dogs of the same breed contained in the PennHip database. The vast majority of people have no clue about what the PennHip scores mean. (These are not what you would call stellar by any means.)


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

Nairb said:


> I searched online, and honestly didn't find any purebred Goldens available for adoption. I checked the Humane Society for the entire Twin Cities and Animal Ark. I see a few labs and lab mixes, but it's mostly pits and pit mixes, it seems. The reason that comment caught my attention is because pure bred Goldens do not sit in shelters for very long. Even poorly bred ones.


Here is the link. I'm done arguing with you all over breeding practices.:no:
I'm only posting this for you because they are begging for help, and you seem interested and live in the area. 

http://www.ragom.org/avail.cgi/Available/index


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Carmel said:


> Here is the link. I'm done arguing with you all over breeding practices.:no:
> I'm only posting this for you because they are begging for help, and you seem interested and live in the area.
> 
> Available Dogs


OK, but that's the Golden rescue, and a large portion of those listed have been adopted or have sponsers. I wouldn't classify most of these as unwanted. When you said there were hundreds of purebred Goldens in the shelter, I assumed you were talking about the Humane Society. Thanks for the link.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

Nairb said:


> OK, but that's the Golden rescue, and a large portion of those listed have been adopted or have sponsers. I wouldn't classify most of these as unwanted. When you said there were hundreds of purebred Goldens in the shelter, I assumed you were talking about the Humane Society. Thanks for the link.


Just all just want to argue don't you guys? :no: Please contact them. It was a Vet I know who handles Newf rescue in Minnesota that gave me their info a year ago and said that they can't keep up with them all, and to please take one of them if I could. She said they had over 100 at the time, and I believe her. Not all of them are listed, and they used to list many of them that were not adoptable and in hospice care. I see they do show a lot of those now on the rainbow bridge link. I did keep checking for a while, but because I have both dogs and cats, and couldn't bear to take a dying or senior one, just because my heart was still raw.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Carmel said:


> Here is the link. I'm done arguing with you all over breeding practices.:no:
> I'm only posting this for you because they are begging for help, and you seem interested and live in the area.
> 
> Available Dogs


RAGOM is one of several active Rescue organizations in MN. They're not a shelter. Ragom rescues dogs in a wide area including several states in the midwest. (MN, WI, ND, SD, NE, IA, and occasionally more.)

If you look at "Shelters" in the Twin Cities, you'll be hard pressed to find even one available "Purebred" dog. What you will find are Pit mixes and tons of cats.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

EXCUSE ME, when I said shelter, I meant I checked with Golden rescue in my area. Good Grief!! And you won't find any Newfs either, because we have the humane societies call us at NCA rescue when a Newf comes in and pick it up. I'm assuming the Golden club does the same.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

An observation after reading through this entire thread. 
Post # 1 was from Sept 2014 with 5 responses - it was a question about a specific breeding - 5 people responded to the OP. Post # 7 was from a different poster (March 2015) asking if anyone had an update re: the breeder in question. Post #8 seemed to be responding to the original poster's question (September 2014) about a specific breeding and the poster made a blanket statement about "fair hips" *<-----* this created an interesting, somewhat exhausting 8 pages of debate.
I do appreciate the debate and dialogue about these issues and hope that people who come to this forum looking for help will take the time to become as knowledgeable as possible.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Coopsmom said:


> An observation after reading through this entire thread.
> Post # 1 was from Sept 2014 with 5 responses - it was a question about a specific breeding - 5 people responded to the OP. Post # 7 was from a different poster (March 2015) asking if anyone had an update re: the breeder in question. Post #8 seemed to be responding to the original poster's question (September 2014) about a specific breeding and the poster made a blanket statement about "fair hips" *<-----* this created an interesting, somewhat exhausting 8 pages of debate.
> I do appreciate the debate and dialogue about these issues and hope that people who come to this forum looking for help will take the time to become as knowledgeable as possible.


YES, and at post #9 the OP stated that he had not gotten a puppy from the breeder he originally inquired about but had looked elsewhere.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> Actually their is a prelim listing of Fair. (No follow up test and the bitch is 4 now. :uhoh: )
> 
> As far as the Sire is concerned, PennHip isn't a clearance. PennHip is an evaluation and ranking in relationship to other dogs of the same breed contained in the PennHip database. The vast majority of people have no clue about what the PennHip scores mean. (These are not what you would call stellar by any means.)



Is there a place where prelim clearances can be seen through OFA? I was under the impression that they either couldn't be seen at all or couldn't be seen once the dog turned 24 months.... but I've never actually tried to look at a prelim on the website. 

Julie and the boys


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Is there a place where prelim clearances can be seen through OFA? I was under the impression that they either couldn't be seen at all or couldn't be seen once the dog turned 24 months.... but I've never actually tried to look at a prelim on the website.
> 
> Julie and the boys


The OFA posts prelims, which remain there until supplanted by finals.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

OFA only posts prelims if you check the box to do so...my experience is that most people so not post prelims...


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Thank you DanaRuns and Sally's Mom for the info. 

I guess where I am confused is where people are seeing that the bitch from the OP has a preliminary rating of fair. I don't see it on OFA, k9data, or the breeder's website. I'm certain this is just me missing it but I'm at a loss. 

Julie and the boys


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Sally's Mom said:


> OFA only posts prelims if you check the box to do so...my experience is that most people so not post prelims...



And the dog has to be chipped and over 12 months of age. I prelimed my Smooch at 11 months old and they would not list them on the site because she was under 12 months despite me checking the box.


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## deanieb (Jun 27, 2015)

I didnt end up getting my golden from that breeder. I got my puppy from laverys goldens in upstate ny and the breeder was really helpful and answered any questions I had. I dont know when she has having her next litter but her contact information is on her website.

I am wondering if Alains99 can tell me if you were happy with your experience with Lavery's Goldens. Tried to send a private message but I think it did not go through.
deanieb


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