# DISGUSTING thread in a border collie forum



## Lilliam

Hi all

I've had border collies for years and they were my first purebred dogs. I loved competing in sheepdog trials but never fit in because of the dog wars between the border collie registry and the AKC. I have no problem with AKC border collies and when I said this I was ostracised. The break widened when I got Max and I ultimately broke away completely from the border collie crowd. 

I visit their forum because I seek information regarding training, clinics, trials, etc. I'm planning to ease Billy back into herding this Spring.

I just found the thread below. It made my blood boil. To summarise, a poster decided that an 11 week old puppy was aggressive and instead of working with a canine behaviourist or running a thyroid panel, they resorted to putting the puppy to sleep. OK, I am LIVID. 

If you read this thread, particularly the first post, what clues, in your opinion, might have been missed that would have solved this issue and saved a puppy's life?

Please Help! Scary Puppy Aggression Issues! - General Border Collie Discussion - BC Boards


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## PiratesAndPups

That is horrible. I read through and it seems like someone who should not own a puppy. They wanted a perfect puppy, but were not willing to do the work on training. They expected perfection from the start. 

What I really can't believe is the number of people agreeing with the OP in that thread and supporting the execution of an 11 week old puppy. 

Great, it's Monday and I already dislike people for the week. I need to hug my dogs...


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## Lilliam

I know. I was SHAKING when I was reading through.

I honestly don't believe that it was aggression. I do believe that it was a dominant puppy testing boundaries, as evidenced by the resource guarding. But I believe, more than anything, that there was a physical component there. 

The symptoms described - shaking and aggression - has anyone ever seen those in relation to thyroid issues?


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## Kmullen

Omg!!!! How horrible!!!!


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## PiratesAndPups

Lilliam said:


> The symptoms described - shaking and aggression - has anyone ever seen those in relation to thyroid issues?


With the shaking thing, it sounded to me like a puppy who was taken out of it's environment, like all puppies, into a new situation. Some pups can handle this fine, others might need more TLC until they settle in. When it didn't get the love it needed, it felt that it was a hostile environment and would need to take care of itself. So it started defending it's resources and putting up defenses. On top of that, they were apparently told to hit it to discipline as well as using a choke collar. I'm ok with using a choke collar (or i prefer calling it a training collar) on a dog in training when they're much older, but I would never put one on an 11 week old puppy. It also sounds like they didn't have any training using a training collar so they were just hurting this little guy without any explanation.


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## Heart O'Gold

This is so tragic. I'm appalled that people are this cruel. I pray those people never get another puppy or any animal.


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## nolefan

"After a blow off this morning which I finally corrected without much physical at all, mostly just calm persistance and giving him 'the look', he waited nervously for a while, then finally did as asked slowly and humbly and he's been much better.Even better after Ithy  Was terrible first thing this am, thought he was going to nip just putting on his leash and was pushy and slow to listen."

This treatment at 11/12 weeks. The woman admits she is a type A and has a preschool age autistic son and 18 month old toddler. The puppy is crated for several hours every afternoon and I saw no mention of exercise and playtime, only assumption that he's getting obedience training with a choke collar. This sounds like a less than desirable household for most breeds much less a high energy herding breed. When excited or frustrated they jump and nip. I get the feeling she doesn't know the breed very well, this would be a tough go for a dog with a great temperament, if he's nervous or fearful it has probably brought out all his worst tendencies. We can only pray he goes to a border collie rescue and not the breeder.

it is a totally depressing and heartbreaking thread.


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## Jamm

That is so sad  It doesn't sound like the breeder was very good as well.. basically offering NO help to the OP.


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## Lilliam

Yes, it is absolutely disgusting.

Can you guys see why I can't even interact with those people? I love border collies, but that culture is just over the top.

But the more I read the more it seems to me that a simple thyroid panel would have given some results that could have been useful. 

There were only two people in that whole thread who actually tried to champion the pup. Everyone else was either "send him back" or "put it to sleep." 

I am SO far removed from that culture.


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## PiratesAndPups

nolefan said:


> We can only pray he goes to a border collie rescue and not the breeder.


Unfortunately they already confirmed with that thread's OP that they did, in fact, put the 11 week old puppy to sleep. They decided not to give him a chance to be happy with a more responsible family and just killed him. What sort of vet would do that anyway? You shouldn't be allowed to bring a perfectly health baby pup to a vet and just say "kill him for me" and have it happen!


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## momtolabs

That is disgusting! I have no words for those people at all. I just pray for the dogs they get in the future 

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## PiratesAndPups

momtolabs said:


> That is disgusting! I have no words for those people at all. I just pray for the dogs they get in the future


I just pray they never get another dog!


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## Lilliam

PiratesAndPups said:


> Unfortunately they already confirmed with that thread's OP that they did, in fact, put the 11 week old puppy to sleep. They decided not to give him a chance to be happy with a more responsible family and just killed him. What sort of vet would do that anyway? You shouldn't be allowed to bring a perfectly health baby pup to a vet and just say "kill him for me" and have it happen!


Good question, about the vet. I thought I'd read somewhere that vets don't euthanise healthy animals? But still, the owner decided in three or four days to put the puppy to sleep. No doubt there will be a new one coming. 

It is sickening.


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## CAROLINA MOM

Is it possible the owners "think" the pup was put to sleep and it actually wasn't?

I got a Cocker girl from my Vet clinic a few years ago. Her owners had turned her over to the Vet to be euthanized basically because they did not like her. The Vet did not euthanize her as the owners asked.

I found out about her and she was given to me by the Clinic. I had her for many years, she was an absolute sweetheart.


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## PiratesAndPups

CAROLINA MOM said:


> Is it possible the owners "think" the pup was put to sleep and it actually wasn't?
> 
> I got a Cocker girl from my Vet clinic a few years ago. Her owners had turned her over to the Vet to be euthanized basically because they did not like her. The Vet did not euthanize her as the owners asked.
> 
> I found out about her and she was given to me by the Clinic. I had her for many years, she was an absolute sweetheart.


I really hope that's it. If not, the vet should have their license taken away. They are supposed to take care of these dogs, not end their young lives just to get a payment.


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## CAROLINA MOM

I can't even begin to comprehend that a Vet would euthanize a healthy animal.


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## golden_732

oh.my.gosh. 

How can anyone just put an 11 week old puppy to sleep like that? I really hope the Vet didn't euthanize her. If dogs that have been through years of abuse can turn around, an 11 week old puppy surely can. I cannot believe that there are so many people supporting this on that forum? What kind of people are they, to condone euthanizing a puppy like this? Poor dog.


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## Lilliam

They are the kind of people I ran away from and could never fit in with.....that's why THIS forum is such a gift. What I see happening here, the support and the care OF THE DOGS is something I NEVER saw there. 

I love border collies and I love sheepdog trials, but I hate the culture and I don't fit in there. Leaves me very frustrated. And ENRAGED at some of the things I read. 

Only a couple of people tried to advocate for the puppy.


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## Brave

CAROLINA MOM said:


> I can't even begin to comprehend that a Vet would euthanize a healthy animal.



I highly doubt the puppy was even taken to a vet. My impression from her posts was that she would just shoot the dog (to put it down) not via a vet. 

I skimmed the thread so I didn't catch any dates. But it doesn't sound like the puppy was given any substantial time to be rehabilitated. 




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## cgriffin

OMG, how can you call a 11 week old pup aggressive? They are land sharks at that age, they are teething - they will bite but it is not in aggression. They don't know any better yet. 

Sadly, yes, there are vets out there that will put a perfectly healthy dog to sleep if a client asks for it. I have seen it working in vet clinics. 

I have also seen a vet clinic where a dog was suppose to be put to sleep ( a golden female with heartworms) and the vet opted not to do it, but behind the owner's back and the dog got adopted out to one of the clinic staff. To make a long story short, the golden escaped from that person and went back home to the original owner and there was a trouble for the vet with vet who owned the clinic. 

I did not work there at the time the golden was there but I was there for the blow out and it was put out that if somebody wants a dog euthanized, it will be euthanized. 

Anyway, with an 11 week old pup, the vet should have talked to the owner about surrendering the pup and trying to find him a home. 

From what I read, I agree, this person probably took matters into their own hands 

I so hope Karma will come back and give this person her due punishment.


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## Lilliam

Does anyone think that there might have been a thyroid issue here? Or am I totally wrong?


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## Goldenhopeful

That made me sick! I was praying that the OP came back at the end and replied to the person who offered to take Colt  so sad  some people should never had dogs or pets!!! She was expecting too much from the little guy and it was totally HER fault for her 18 m old son getting bit. I NEVER allow my son and Tucker to be alone together even for one Milisecond... That is just terrible. Sounds like the breeder was awful too.


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## Brave

Lilliam said:


> Does anyone think that there might have been a thyroid issue here? Or am I totally wrong?


I don't know enough about thyroid problems OR border collies to know if that is a possibility. I always thought it was a bad idea to have a herding breed in a home with small children.


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## GoldenMum

My heart is just breaking right now, I cannot believe anyone would euthanize a puppy without a professional evaluation. Wow, having had rescues in my home for years, I just cannot fathom this. I cannot believe that all avenues were exhausted, just so sad.


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## Melfice

I don't think any Vet would euthanize a puppy or animal that is not sick. Most likely took the dog, and told this person it will be done.

Sad to see a thread like this. Puppies are a big challenge, and if you can't handle it don't get a puppy. There are tons of people who will love and take care of the animal instead


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## Loisiana

Melfice said:


> I don't think any Vet would euthanize a puppy or animal that is not sick.


dogs are put down for aggression all the time


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## Claudia M

What really killed me was all these people calling her dog savvy, experienced...bla bla bla - who would start shaking a chair with a scared dog underneath it? 
who would crate an 11 week old pup for 4 hours? Especially while at home! 
I am so mad I cannot remember the other idiotic things she has done with this pup. 

I am partial to border colies since our Jacko was a Border Colie/Golden Retriever Mix. He was stubborn no doubt but an absolute sweetheart.


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## Lilliam

Loisiana said:


> dogs are put down for aggression all the time


Dogs, maybe, if there are serious issues and all avenues have been explored and methods spent.

But this was an eleven week old puppy.


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## cgriffin

Totally agree - not an 11 week old puppy!!


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## CharlieBear80

Brave said:


> I always thought it was a bad idea to have a herding breed in a home with small children.


Not necessarily - if you know dogs and how to handle them, it can be done with no problem. My 2 GSDs were about 5 and 6 years old when my son was born and they got along like peanut butter and jelly with him from day 1. People like the woman in this thread sound too stupid to own a dog period, let alone own a herding dog with a small child.


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## CharlieBear80

Lilliam said:


> Does anyone think that there might have been a thyroid issue here? Or am I totally wrong?


Based on my very limited understanding of the link that can exist between thyroid issues and behavior problems, maybe. It's certainly something worth exploring, but I don't get the impression that Colt's owner would have been terribly interesting in pursuing possibility that anyway.


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## Lilliam

Brave said:


> I don't know enough about thyroid problems OR border collies to know if that is a possibility. I always thought it was a bad idea to have a herding breed in a home with small children.


It can be, depending on the individual dog and depending on the home environment. But that's only after the dog has "turned on." An eleven week old puppy hasn't turned on yet. And in any case it is manageable. 

This puppy sounds like just a bitey puppy. A dog that is nipping because of herding instinct is doing so at the heel or is circling kids. A puppy that young isn't going to head.


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## ArchersMom

I honestly can't believe people like this still exist in the world. Euthanizing a healthy puppy?! This made me so sad. How could someone whom obviously can't even afford to BUY a puppy think they could care for one for its entire life! Obviously not everyone needs to buy a nicely pedigreed golden retriever but if you can't afford $100 for a puppy at the shelter how will they pay for dog food. I have a feeling they might not have actually taken him to a vet to be euthanized. And if they'd just waited a person from their forum would have taken him even. Tragic.


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## Tahnee GR

Lilliam said:


> Does anyone think that there might have been a thyroid issue here? Or am I totally wrong?


I am not going to read the thread as I am already upset about the baby puppy. However, I think 11 weeks is too young for thyroid issues. Sounds like a strong puppy partnered with an idiot, and possibly not a well bred or well socialized puppy.

Makes me just sick.


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## lhowemt

I can't read it either but just want to go on the thread and FLAME the owner!!!!

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## Barkr

*Disgusting is an understatement !*

I read the thread in its entirety, I am gobsmacked It was like a nightmare. Shameful, I hope the OP never owns another dog. And I can't say I was impressed with the advice given.  still shaking my head


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## Cuddysmom

I... But... How...


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## Cuddysmom

Ok, who wants to go find this 'woman' with me?


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## sunita123

I like to your views about pets. i totally agree with you


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## mylissyk

Lilliam said:


> Does anyone think that there might have been a thyroid issue here? Or am I totally wrong?


I don't think a puppy this young could have thyroid issues. No, what they had was a fearful puppy who started resource guarding. I highly doubt the bite on the child was a "bite", I would bet it was normal puppy mouthiness, and probably did break skin. It is beyond sad that this poor puppy ended up with someone who had not a clue what puppies are like, and also made no effort to get professional assistance when they encountered problems, and now he's dead.

I just can't believe the responses were so heavily weighted toward this being a "bad" puppy. It's like none of them never had a puppy.


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## GoldenPines

It sounds to me after going through the thread that poor Colt didn't stand much of a chance in life between the "breeder" and the owner. The owner was obviously taking on too much with the challenges already facing her family, and the breeder probably was just a puppy mill more than anything else. I am shocked by the insensitivity towards the puppy from fellow posters on their, where is this compassion for this poor pup and how can they not see the BS with this owner. I hope this woman never gets her hands on another puppy again, but unfortunately I know someone out there will be more than anxious to sell to her just to make a buck. Disgusting.


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## Katduf

Selfish stupid despicable woman. I hope karma is swift with this piece of work. I sincerely wish her a miserable life. 


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## Lilliam

I posted to the thread. I shouldn't have. 

My post was deleted. 

I said that this was horrible, that the pup was never given a chance to be evaluated by a canine behaviourist, that only one rescue organisation was called, and that the pup was not given a full panel to determine any physical or neurological issues. And I said that it was indefensible that the pup was killed. 

My post was deleted. 


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## Lilliam

There is a world's worth of difference between golden owners and working BC owners. 

That has never been clearer. 


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## Tennyson

That was like reading a wife-beater forum.


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## CAROLINA MOM

I don't think it was right that your post was deleted.

You had just as much right as everyone else to express your thoughts/opinions.


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## Cuddysmom

Lilliam- thank you. You did what any of us would do!

Tenny- no, it's worse. 

Great. Now I'm going to be is a pss poor mood all day


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## Barkr

That thread kept me awake for hours, the poor pup not have a chance:-(


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## Lilliam

CAROLINA MOM said:


> I don't think it was right that your post was deleted.
> 
> You had just as much right as everyone else to express your thoughts/opinions.



Well they hate me in that forum. I've been infracted for saying that I would have no problem buying an AKC border collie and that I would run an AKC border collie in USBCHA trials and that they can't stop me, only the dog and I and our abilities or lack of them can limit my entry into USBCHA sheepdog trials. 

So I'm not surprised. 

I really was looking for ideas as to what might have been going on physically or mentally with that pup. It seemed to me as a pushy bossy puppy very similar to my Dru, who was a hard, hard dog. But who was sheer courage and strength when most needed. 

I think the owner was over her head. I don't think the puppy was properly socialised. And the pup was just a pushy pup. The only thing I don't have the answer for is the shaking. 


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## Cuddysmom

Hmmmm. They hate you for not being a puppy killer?! 

THIS WHY I'M A DOG PERSON


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## Brave

Lilliam said:


> Well they hate me in that forum. I've been infracted for saying that I would have no problem buying an AKC border collie and that I would run an AKC border collie in USBCHA trials and that they can't stop me, only the dog and I and our abilities or lack of them can limit my entry into USBCHA sheepdog trials.


I was wondering about that dichotomy. There is a border collie breeder/trainer in my obedience class and she was showing off her trick on trick night of her unleashed BC going in her crate and waiting patiently. I made a joke that it would be an amazing sight if she could jump up on the top of the crate and stack herself. And this woman went crazy about how this is NOT a conformation BC (snearing at me, too) and that this is a working dog from dual champion lines!! And it took me aback. I know we have debates here on GRF over field vs show lines of the GR, but I haven't see anyone ever have such a reaction of the mere idea of competing in conformation with their specific dog. WHEW!


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## lcgb53

Oh my God !! I can't believe someone would do this! Why are these people even looking for a puppy ? Puppies aren't perfect, and as you can see from this story, neither are the humans. Either work with them, or don't have pets period.


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## Lilliam

Brave said:


> I was wondering about that dichotomy. There is a border collie breeder/trainer in my obedience class and she was showing off her trick on trick night of her unleashed BC going in her crate and waiting patiently. I made a joke that it would be an amazing sight if she could jump up on the top of the crate and stack herself. And this woman went crazy about how this is NOT a conformation BC (snearing at me, too) and that this is a working dog from dual champion lines!! And it took me aback. I know we have debates here on GRF over field vs show lines of the GR, but I haven't see anyone ever have such a reaction of the mere idea of competing in conformation with their specific dog. WHEW!



Oh they HATE the AKC with the passion of a million burning suns. And I don't ascribe to that hatred. Splits in breeds are inevitable. There will be people breeding for separate purposes. It is a fact of life. So I want my dog to compete in USBCHA, AHBA, and AKC. The more venues the greater the challenge the greater the learning. And no one is going to tell me that I can't trial my dog in any trial IF he is able to run it. 




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## Artnlibsmom

I am so very sickened to think that an 11 week old puppy had to die for no reason other than what the OP considered lack of options. She didn't want to "take the puppy to a shelter"....at least the babe may have had a chance there.


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## Brave

Lilliam said:


> Oh they HATE the AKC with the passion of a million burning suns. And I don't ascribe to that hatred. Splits in breeds are inevitable. There will be people breeding for separate purposes. It is a fact of life. So I want my dog to compete in USBCHA, AHBA, and AKC. The more venues the greater the challenge the greater the learning. And no one is going to tell me that I can't trial my dog in any trial IF he is able to run it.


Why the hate? That confuses me.


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## Lilliam

Artnlibsmom said:


> I am so very sickened to think that an 11 week old puppy had to die for no reason other than what the OP considered lack of options. She didn't want to "take the puppy to a shelter"....at least the babe may have had a chance there.



Because they feel that the border collie is a working dog who should be bred only for work. They feel the AKC breeds for looks alone. When I told them that although form follows function, an improperly formed dog cannot function they infracted me. They feel the AKC will dumb down the breed. True, the BC routinely is listed as the most intelligent dog, but AKC registration won't take that away. The standard poodle routinely is listed number two, goldens number three, and they have not been damaged by the AKC. 

I also explained that the AKC also breeds for health and temperament and that the majority of BCs are neurotic messes. I can say that, I love the breed. So they banned me. 


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## Cuddysmom

A total bunch of AHs


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## Lilliam

Here is their argument. I fought it and was banned. 

I know that if I get another border collie and trailed, that I would automatically lose every USBCHA trial I enter. 

http://www.bordercollie.org/culture/culture.html



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## Ruby13

PiratesAndPups said:


> They decided not to give him a chance to be happy with a more responsible family and just killed him. What sort of vet would do that anyway? You shouldn't be allowed to bring a perfectly health baby pup to a vet and just say "kill him for me" and have it happen!


If you read back through the thread, she eluded to the puppy finding itself on the other end of a gun. :no:

I'm just not even going to get started on what I think about this. My head is already threatening to explode from reading the responses in that thread.


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## momtolabs

I am sick to my stomach. Bentley accidently bit my hand pretty good today during training(I use tug as an award) would he be shot for that in there hands!??? Excuse me as i go bang my head off a wall! 

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## PiratesAndPups

Ruby13 said:


> If you read back through the thread, she eluded to the puppy finding itself on the other end of a gun. :no:
> 
> I'm just not even going to get started on what I think about this. My head is already threatening to explode from reading the responses in that thread.


What sort of human could shoot any dog, let alone an 11 week old puppy. That is just sickening.


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## Claudia M

Lilliam said:


> Oh they HATE the AKC with the passion of a million burning suns. And I don't ascribe to that hatred. *Splits in breeds are inevitable. There will be people breeding for separate purposes. *It is a fact of life. So I want my dog to compete in USBCHA, AHBA, and AKC. The more venues the greater the challenge the greater the learning. And no one is going to tell me that I can't trial my dog in any trial IF he is able to run it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I admire the breeders that stay true to the original purpose of the breed. I see conformation as a plus to the purpose of the breed and not a separate purpose. I look at some representatives of the breed (in all breed) at those shows and sometimes I just want to puke. Most recently the labs at the Westminster Show. I was impressed with many lab owners who instead of trying to defend the labs they were just as disgusted as I was.


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