# Judging the highroller



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Ted usually writes a good article.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> Ted usually writes a good article.


This article shows a lot of insight. And I like that Ted looks to not penalize the high roller.

Apropos to this: I once ran a club trial in a field of about 20 dogs. I was in a runoff for placements, there were four of us. The judges set up a test in which they said it would penalize the high roller. Needless to say I left that one quite PO'd.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

gdgli said:


> This article shows a lot of insight. And I like that Ted looks to not penalize the high roller.
> 
> Apropos to this: I once ran a club trial in a field of about 20 dogs. I was in a runoff for placements, there were four of us. The judges set up a test in which they said it would penalize the high roller. Needless to say I left that one quite PO'd.


why were you PO'd? was the set up a trick (contrary marks) did it require pure marking or did it require a dog that was trained for "marks"? I'm just wondering how a judge can set up a test that goes against a "high roller".


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

krazybronco2 said:


> why were you PO'd? was the set up a trick (contrary marks) did it require pure marking or did it require a dog that was trained for "marks"? I'm just wondering how a judge can set up a test that goes against a "high roller".


It's very easy to set up a test to bounce the high rollers out of contention and reward the dogs that possess very little go.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Swampcollie said:


> It's very easy to set up a test to bounce the high rollers out of contention and reward the dogs that possess very little go.


that could be set up with a trick test (contrary marks) but an untrained dog that can mark will and can do very well in these tests because they know where the birds are but do not have the training to swim to the end of the pond. they don't have the fear of getting out early where as a dog that has been trained knows you will find a bird if you swim to the end of the pond. 

a very good friend and trainer told me there are 3 things you need to know about water. the first is see water and get into water second is get on the point and get off the point and the last is swim to the F&$King end of the pond. only one of those do i say can mess you up and that is get on and off a point because there will be times that a dog needs to swim past a point.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

krazybronco2 said:


> why were you PO'd? was the set up a trick (contrary marks) did it require pure marking or did it require a dog that was trained for "marks"? I'm just wondering how a judge can set up a test that goes against a "high roller".


First off, I own the highest of the high rollers. Just ask MoP and Mr. MoP. Secondly, if you read the article you will see that Ted mentions that we should care if high rollers are at a disadvantage at trials, so that we should try not to penalize the high roller and actually a case could be made that we should actually reward the high roller. 

Remember, by definition the high roller is moving more quickly than the other dogs. Now for the setup. This was actually a gundog stake. There are three men blowing their duck calls behind me to amp up the high rollers. OK, fair. Buffy is chomping at the bit, muscles quivering. The mark was maybe 80-100 yards. OK, duck soup. However, the mark is thrown by a hidden gun. This is a "keyhole mark", the keyhole is a five foot break in a hedgerow. The bird lands behind a bush which is the left part of the keyhole. Also this is on the near edge of a steep bank of a narrow creek, maybe 1 1/2 feet of land to the edge of the creek and the bird is on this 1 1/2 foot strip. Buffy goes out full tilt and does what any high roller would do, she leaps across the creek and bypasses the mark and is now hunting in an open field. She didn't get her mark. Actually she finally did when I called her in and she came up on the bird.

Buffy is such an amazing marker (the judges even told me so on the previous series). I had to walk out to see why she missed this one. I really didn't understand why but this article made it clear to me. That setup is burned into my memory. 

Knowing this, I bet that I could design a test that would penalize most high rollers. If you get a chance, read the article.

PS I don't handle on marks. 
PSS The president of the club was pissed and he is the one who told me that the judges said they wanted to penalize the high roller.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

You can set up test to penalize a number of different qualities a dog may possess. In the past there were a few judges that used a dogs nose against them. If you had a dog with a sensitive nose (Golden), you were likely going to get bumped down in placements or eliminated all together.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> You can set up test to penalize a number of different qualities a dog may possess. In the past there were a few judges that used a dogs nose against them. If you had a dog with a sensitive nose (Golden), you were likely going to get bumped down in placements or eliminated all together.



I know that. And those judges may still exist, can't see a Golden doing well.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

I never cared for Ted.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Very good article! Read it just this morning.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

krazybronco2 said:


> why were you PO'd? was the set up a trick (contrary marks) did it require pure marking or did it require a dog that was trained for "marks"? I'm just wondering how a judge can set up a test that goes against a "high roller".


kb2,

To answer your implied second question...it's easy. Just set up a test where a dog's momentum can get it in trouble.

But to the bigger issue of judges intentionally setting out to penalize high rollers:

The Rules and Regulations regarding field trials and judging field trials makes it clear that style, specifically including speed, is to be rewarded and is not to be discouraged. Of course, there's the requisite balance of style and control necessary to be successful at field trials, particularly in the all age stakes. 
The article in Retriever News is a good article and provides decent, though in my opinion not complete, explanations about tests which will penalize a high roller. Obviously, it's far easier to penalize the high rollers on blinds than on marks, but it is possible to give the less stylish dogs at least a slight advantage on marks as well. 

If you don't have access to the article, let me know and I'll figure out how to get it to you.

FTGoldens


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

Here is a link to the article.
Judging The High Roller


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

A hi drive dog gets busted at the line in the last series!
Throw 3 birds in that dogs face if u want to judge a hi drive dog.Or penalize.

Having a set up that involves a creek with a steep bank only creates a hazzard for the dog when u put the mark a 1 1/2ft away from the near bank. CAN U NOT SEE THE HAZZARD?

To the op, ur a fool for even running this with ur so called "highest" of hi rollers!

I woulda walked to my truck and called it a day.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Yikes Poppy2. I really do not think this was necessary. I did not quote your comment on purpose to give you time to edit it. 

Just out of curiosity, have you read the article? 


*"What Is A High Roller?
Ted: For starters, I think we need to agree upon what is a High Roller. When I hear the words “High Roller”, I envision an intense, powerful, purposeful, fast moving animal. I do not envision, wild creeping, whining animals. I do not envision dogs that run wildly in the field without purpose. My vision of a High Roller is a dog with controlled intensity and power.
Terry: I like your description. I also view a “High Roller” as a dog which has that intense desire to retrieve – on both marks and blinds. I distinguish between a dog with a strong or intense desire to retrieve and a dog which comes to the line and exhibits poor line manners. Bad line manners are simply that – “bad line manners.” I view this as a separate training issue and not part of our discussion."
- See more at: Judging The High Roller*


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Teds?
Nope.
Just the op's.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Claudia,
Just read ur Teds idea of a hi roller. I agree with his discriprion.

Hall of fame Hattie Mcbunn broke her back on a similar set up as the op described. Full out sprint to a mark by a steep rivers back. Poor Hattie didn't see it coming, she over ran the mark and slammed straight into the other bank and broke her back. The op was lucky his dog jumped the creek.

As I said, only a fool would run a set up like this.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Poppy, I am not one to ever put a dog in danger. I rather thank the judges and excuse my dog than try to chase a ribbon. But, with that said, several factors are to be considered: dog's attitude thru the test, experience of the dog in those situations, is this the last series, is the dog tired enough that the dog may not proceed in such a way to hurt itself? It is easy to condemn someone without knowing the dog, situation and calculate the entire day based on the knowledge and feedback you have from your dog. 

I recently have helped a derby. The second series was very hard terrain for my puppy. I have watched the set up, walked around it. It would have been a tough call. I do not think I would have allowed my puppy to run that series. Now maybe the 40 mph wind gusts that the dog was running against to the mark after getting out of an angle water, crossing a road and then going into a steep down ditch full of debris and then back up the hill may have made me re-consider allowing her to run. But I doubt it, she would have jumped off that road into the debris. Several high roller dogs tumbled, flipped and some even popped as they had no idea what just happened to them. The winner of the derby came back to the truck limping. I could not be more happy to see that pup win as it was the best of the best. 

So even though I know my pup, if she wasn't in heat and in fact entered in the derby I could not tell you today if I would have proceeded or not with to that series.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

FTGoldens said:


> kb2,
> 
> To answer your implied second question...it's easy. Just set up a test where a dog's momentum can get it in trouble.
> 
> ...


the second question wasn't implied i was really wondering because to my knowledge in my limited time of running field trials there are marks that are a trick (contrary marks) marks that take a very good marking dog to dig out or the dog that has been trained where to go on marks. 

i just read the article earlier today and i agree there can be blinds that will punish a high roller but it is also in my personal opinion that running a blind is also on the handler as much as the dog. 

and the marking section of the article again in what i think i am reading is that the high rollers get pencil whipped on the tighter test. even the people in the article said not given the terrain, entries and weather they would throw a tight setup. i don't agree with this but i understand if an open judge has 300yards in a flat field you got to work with what you have.

I know you are a FT judge and respect your opinion and i know you have forgotten more about dogs than i know about dogs. i would love to train with you and learn but all my opinions are based on what have seen and learned in my limited time of running dogs. i am not like some and have fixed opinions i am more than willing to change my opinion after i have seen it and understand it.

but one thing i learned that i never thought i could do but i have been practicing in my house is learning how to take in a lot of air to be able to give a big booming verbal back and have enough air to blow a long hard whistle with out taking a breath. i learned this from watching Al Arthur run some blinds with a client and he explained he does this after he has stopped a dog near a factor that he know requires a big verbal back but also may require a very very quick whistle ( my guess is a poison bird, key hole, on and off a point, sharp angles into water)


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> Yikes Poppy2. I really do not think this was necessary. I did not quote your comment on purpose to give you time to edit it.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, have you read the article?
> 
> ...


NOTICE TO ALL

Poppy is commenting on concepts he does not understand. Poppy is a "LOW INFORMATION DOG TRAINER". He has not read the article, probably would not understand it, and most certainly my comment went way over his head. 

Also, Poppy has inadvertently revealed that he has never attended a Judges and Handlers Seminar. If he did he would have understood that the judges walked the field beforehand to check for hazards. None were seen. 

So Poppy, who said anything about hazards? You did in an attempt to turn my comment and thread useful for your purposes.

Finally, Poppy, you should not be rude to other forum members such as I have seen. You see, I know a lot about you and I think it is time for me to let those who are bullied what you are.


PS POPPY, INADVERTENTLY MEANS NOT DELIBERATELY


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Actually gdgli I have noticed you like to stalk me! You finger that thank you button on every threard I post on to anyone that I have a discussion with. You sir are desturbed!!!
Infact if you look back on that biting thread I posted on in the main discussion board about 4 months ago. Everyone can go back and look at your history with me. The funny part is your so stupid that you posted the same advice to her, but you were too busy fingering the thank you button that you didn't notice!
LMAO!! BUSTED!!!






I post my views and am able to back them up unlike you that likes to pm people your ideas. How lame is that on a open forum? Are you afraid you cant back it up???

I dont need to go to a class or pay a pro trainer or bother some guy named GUY on his death bed either to learn to train a dog!!! This showed who you REALLY ARE!



I also remember you starting a FORCE FETCH thread saying you weren't going to pinch the dogs ear. Kinda echoes what I say all the time gdgli . But you can't bring yourself to agree with me. Instead you press the thank you button on people that I have a real conversation with that challenge me. 






You sir are a spineless human being that cant train a dog past juniors.








Anyone feel free to look back on my posts and see I add value to this forum. gdgli has been stalking me for quite awhile.
Gloves are off now gdgli !


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Poppy2 said:


> Actually gdgli I have noticed you like to stalk me! You finger that thank you button on every threard I post on to anyone that I have a discussion with. You sir are desturbed!!!
> Infact if you look back on that biting thread I posted on in the main discussion board about 4 months ago. Everyone can go back and look at your history with me. The funny part is your so stupid that you posted the same advice to her, but you were too busy fingering the thank you button that you didn't notice!
> LMAO!! BUSTED!!!
> 
> ...



Poppy2, please tell the forum why you are not running master. You and _know why._


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

No the gloves are not off now !!

This ends here. Should this continue, not only will this thread be closed, but further action may be taken upon those that violate any board rules.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

As far as your recent thread, you got pretty defensive yourself with Krazybronco. I wouldn.t even of posted on ur thread, but I saw something that needed to be noted. You yourself were up set about the test, just for the wrong reasons.
Its always someone elses fault with you!! Whether me or someone in your training group. You just always find a way to blame someone beside yourself for your downfalls in training.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Rob's GRs said:


> No the gloves are not off now !!
> 
> This ends here. Should this continue, not only will this thread be closed, but further action may be taken upon those that violate any board rules.


Sorry just saw this after my post.


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## ktkins7 (Jul 20, 2013)

Everyone, cut it out. Stop arguing back and forth. Stop throwing out insults. Like Rob said, if it continues the thread will be closed and if forum rules are violated then further action may be taken. Knock it off.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Rob's GRs said:


> No the gloves are not off now !!
> 
> This ends here. Should this continue, not only will this thread be closed, but further action may be taken upon those that violate any board rules.


Posting my name should be removed. I did not give him permission to use my name nor has it ever been posted here.


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## ktkins7 (Jul 20, 2013)

Poppy2 said:


> Posting my name should be removed. I did not give him permission to use my name nor has it ever been posted here.


All names have been removed from this thread.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

We all know who he is anyway. He's been thrown off other forums for his bad behavior. Get a clue Poppy, we don't appreciate you.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Do you really have to close a thread every time someone causes an issue on it? Can't you just deal with the offenders and let those who want to get back to the original discussion do so?


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Back to the OP, people who have high rollers know how much harder it is to handle those dogs. The handler has to be spot on. A nano-second and you are out.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

gdgli said:


> Poppy2, please tell the forum why you are not running master. You and _know why._[/QUOTI ]
> 
> Ok, well it aint cause my dog can't do the work. You and hotel4dogs both know that dontcha?
> I sent you a video of my dog and you seen him run, you know what i got. i trained with hotel4dogs(as u know) and i doudt she would say my dog cant run master and go5 for 5. Or run QAAwithout blinking a eye . And she knows EXACTLY HOW I TRAINED MY DOG!!!
> ...


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Poppy2, just out of curiosity! 

What does a person who does not own or train goldens have to gain from this forum? 

I tried to leave it alone especially after you admitted to not reading the article that was referenced in this thread. Some like it, some don't, some have a different opinion from what the article says. But you literately used it to personally attack the OP. 

Now please no more attacks on forum members that have been here for quite a bit of time and have helped others to play the game. Both Hotel4dogs and gdgli are outstanding members of this forum. Enough please!


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Alaska7133 said:


> We all know who he is anyway. He's been thrown off other forums for his bad behavior. Get a clue Poppy, we don't appreciate you.


And how would you know that?
Sounds like hotel4dogs has a bigger mouth than I thought.
Only she knew this and why?
Your just helping my cause,lol
Never thought I.d say thank you to Alaska.

Funny thing is, when I was friends with her, she talked smack about many of you here.
You all need to get a clue.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Claudia M said:


> Poppy2, just out of curiosity!
> 
> What does a person who does not own or train goldens have to gain from this forum?
> 
> ...


I.ll tell you what Claudia,
You were one she talked about as well as k 9 design.


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

This thread is being closed as it has not stayed on topic and the bickering has continued. The mod team will be reviewing this further as well.


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