# Dog Whisperer changing his ways?



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Cesar Milan is supposed to attend a symposium, at his request, with leading positive method trainers. Do you think it will do any good?

http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/last-days-pain-training-are-upon-us


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

He has been slowly changing over to more positive methods over the last couple of years. At first he wouldn't even pet a dog, now he actually will use treats to get them to do what he wants.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I've noticed that too.


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## WLR (May 11, 2008)

"his show has caused countless dogs to be unfairly harmed under the guise of training."
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Huh? Someone explain to this to me.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Alpha rolls, dominating, rough physical handling. He has done all these things and because of his national tv show millions of dog owners have copied him. The science of dog training has moved leaps and bounds beyond fear and dominance methods to more positive training techniques.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

He specifically tells his audience of his show not to try these techniques themselves, but to seek the help of a professional. We have hundreds of medical shows on tv, but if someone watched one of these medical shows and then attempted surgery at home we would not be blaming the people on the show (and there are idiots out there doing things like that).

If you have never read the comparison of training a dog to training a killer whale it is an interesting read. 
http://cynography.blogspot.com/


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

mylissyk said:


> Alpha rolls, dominating, rough physical handling. He has done all these things and because of his national tv show millions of dog owners have copied him. The science of dog training has moved leaps and bounds beyond fear and dominance methods to more positive training techniques.


I agree! There were a few shows where I would look at Jay and say "he just ruined that dog".


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I like watching Cesar--granted I did not watch him back in the day. I think he was rougher than, but seems to have grown more as a trainer. While I wouldn't go to the guy for advice on raising a puppy, I thought his puppy episode was not that bad. In fact,he made it a point to pick out the most calm easy going puppies in a litter. Many people were shocked by this, thinking he would want the most outgoing and alpha pup. I totally loved it--most people who want a house companion should go with the easier going dog instead of the little devil.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Sounds like Ceaser has an open mind and is willing to growand learn through experience. Not always the case for trainers....some positive-only trainers are very close-minded in my opinion.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Lucky's mom said:


> Sounds like Ceaser has an open mind and is willing to growand learn through experience. Not always the case for trainers....some positive-only trainers are very close-minded in my opinion.


I wonder what makes you think that? I have noticed that the majority of positive based trainers I have met are also willing to grow and learn.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

fostermom said:


> I wonder what makes you think that? I have noticed that the majority of positive based trainers I have met are also willing to grow and learn.


 I'm just expressing my opinion based on my own experiences on this and other forums. I think its easier for a trainer who sees the value of negative tactics and positive to be more open-minded. Where a positive only trainer will not consider some techniques even though it may produce beneficial results because they are not open to them.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Lucky's mom said:


> I'm just expressing my opinion based on my own experiences on this and other forums. I think its easier for a trainer who sees the value of negative tactics and positive to be more open-minded. Where a positive only trainer will not consider some techniques even though it may produce beneficial results because they are not open to them.


See, I think that if a trainer believes that it's not necessary to cause pain or discomfort to a dog to teach them something, there shouldn't be any flexibility expected when it comes to that. 

I don't think that being "open minded" is necessarily a good thing when it comes to using training that causes pain. I guess I can't see any justification in hurting a dog just to create a shortcut to training them something.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I'll admit it, I like Cesar. I watched a show of his once where there was this EXTREMELY people-shy dog in an animal rescue, and, using treats and positive reinforcement, he was able to slowly get the dog to trust him, and to eventually trust one of the employees at the animal rescue. I thought it was sweet.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

fostermom said:


> See, I think that if a trainer believes that it's not necessary to cause pain or discomfort to a dog to teach them something, there shouldn't be any flexibility expected when it comes to that.
> 
> I don't think that being "open minded" is necessarily a good thing when it comes to using training that causes pain. I guess I can't see any justification in hurting a dog just to create a shortcut to training them something.


I agree that being "open-minded" isn't always an asset. Adhering to principals can be a good thing. I just don't always agree with everyone's principals on this matter. I think some positive trainers will bypass solutions because it goes against their principals and philosophy. Where a trainer like Cesar is simply focused on training the dog....he's not under a set of philosophy rules. That makes it easier for him to accept new techniques.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Lucky's mom said:


> I agree that being "open-minded" isn't always an asset. Adhering to principals can be a good thing. I just don't always agree with everyone's principals on this matter. I think some positive trainers will bypass solutions because it goes against their principals and philosophy. Where a trainer like Cesar is simply focused on training the dog....he's not under a set of philosophy rules. That makes it easier for him to accept new techniques.


All I have to say is...AMEN!


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

fostermom said:


> See, I think that if a trainer believes that it's not necessary to cause pain or discomfort to a dog to teach them something, there shouldn't be any flexibility expected when it comes to that.
> 
> I don't think that being "open minded" is necessarily a good thing when it comes to using training that causes pain. I guess I can't see any justification in hurting a dog just to create a shortcut to training them something.


 
True, but sometimes that 'shortcut' is the difference between someone continuing on in training because they can see progress and them quitting because they aren't going anywhere and the dog is getting on their nerves. I've seen that too.

Lana


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## LizShort (May 19, 2009)

Right now in the world of reading education, the powers that be have decided that "Whole Language" is the way to teach reading. That by teaching sight words, a child will intuitively learn how to decode. These are referred to as "best practices" and "research based methodology." 

Phonics has become the ultimate evil. The "experts" claim that the ONLY way children can learn effectively is to create their own rules which are supposed to mimic what the phonics rules are. Teachers who are addicted to "best practices" spend hours upon untold hours trying to lead students to the correct conclusion.

Right now, as a reading teacher, I am faced with more than 100 students who can't read or decode in 8th grade. I believe that phonics is the way to go early on.

The point is, there are many different ways to do things. Reading and training dogs is very similar. If you don't know how the mind of the child/dog works, you cannot match teaching/training techniques. Every child/dog is different. Not everything works for every situation. Not every training technique works for every dog. 

Ceasar works with dogs who are vicious who would otherwise be put down. These dogs may not respond at first to positive forms of training. Ceasar works intuitively with each animal. Ceasar does use positive methods when they work with that pup. 

When you demand that EVERYONE subscribe to the SAME methods, you are alienating those who do not respond to an alternative. Choosing not to accept that there are alternatives to your own preferred method, is just as ignorant as someone who chooses to ignore the validity of multitude of teaching methods for people. 

You wouldn't expect every child to learn in the same way, why would you expect a dog to learn in only one way?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Okay, gotta give another Amen!

I'm also a middle school teacher. The buzz word of education these days is "Differentiated Instruction," which simply means adjusting what and how you teach to the children you are teaching. I am a big believer in differentiated instruction in dog training too!

BTW, I also tutor at Sylvan Learning Center, where parents pay big bucks so we can teach their kids how to read, because we _do_ teach phonics.


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## LizShort (May 19, 2009)

Ahhh yess... differentiated instruction... ::sigh:: I'm actually taking masters classes in that. 

As far as I concerned, Ceasar teaches a DIFFERENT way of teaching an animal. Differentiated instruction is just what Ceasar offers. Just as I grew up with collar pops that worked with Quincy and Brandy, I am now finding different ways to work with Jake who is far more sensitive than Quincy or Brandy ever were. 

Jodie, what do you teach?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

LizShort said:


> Jodie, what do you teach?


6th grade reading/language arts

As a matter of fact, I've got to work on a differentiated instruction plan this weekend to present next week to the faculty and then have fellow teachers come in and watch it in action. I think that a lot of dog trainers don't like to change the way they train for the same reason teachers don't like to change the way they teach - they are comfortable with the way they've been doing things and coming up with different ideas is more work!


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## LizShort (May 19, 2009)

I LOVE 6th graders!!! I wish I could go back to that age. As it is, I'm hanging with 8th graders, but I love them too LOL. 

I think you are right in that coming up with different ideas is more work. Learning to differentiate is so difficult!!! I'm still trying to figure this out. ugh. It's so much easier with my dog!!! LOL


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Yeah, I find dog training to be a lot more instinctual, while teaching children requires a lot more planning. It is a lot easier for me to realize the differences that my dogs need in training and then implement them in training, versus looking at all the children that I teach and planning out how they best learn and how I can make my lesson most effective for each one of them. I will admit, planning is my least favorite part of teaching, so coming up with multiple ideas for each lesson and planning them all out is not really my idea of a great Friday night.


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## LizShort (May 19, 2009)

Amen to that Jodie LOL


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

I stopped watching Cesar completely the day I saw him "tap" a golden retriever with his foot hard enough to lift it's front paws off the ground. I was never really a fan of his methods, but that was where it truly crossed the line for me and disgust beat out morbid curiosity. No the man does not subscribe to any one philosophy... he makes it up as he goes along. Have you ever actually listened to his explanations for a dog's behavior (predating that episode... no idea what he's saying now)? To me, that goes right back to what Liz said above -- "If you don't know how the mind of the child/dog works, you cannot match teaching/training techniques." I do hear people saying that he's begun carrying around a pocket full of treats and softening his methods a bit... perhaps I'll peek at an episode to see what's changed, but to be honest I'm not overly optimistic about it.

I strongly disagree that positive training means limiting yourself to one approach or method. There are countless ways to individualize a training program without resorting to physical coercion and correction. Best practices save untold lives and dollars in the field of medicine... though it's impossible to deny that sometimes people jump the gun in adopting them (and for some reason, another educational example comes to mind... new math anyone?). But there's a difference between limiting the way teachers instruct children and the law changes that did away with corporeal punishment in schools. Stopping the act of wrapping children across the knuckles (and that was for a minor infraction!) didn't impair the students' ability to learn... quite the opposite actually.

The thing I find many overlook is that most accomplished positive trainers have been there and done that (and usually quite successfully) with traditional methods. Sure, those tools are somewhere in their toolbox... they used to be right there at the top, but over time have become buried and dusty from disuse as these people found them to be unnecessary. Learning, evolving, and discarding what experience and science show you is extraneous does not make one closed-minded.

I'll be interested to see what comes of this symposium. More than anything, I wonder what Cesar's fans (those who ascribe to his methods and have spent so much time defending them) would say/do if CM should come out of it with an entirely new perspective. I'm not counting on that happening, but I can't help wondering.

Julie and Jersey


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## BajaOklahoma (Sep 27, 2009)

In KN, my daughter was reading 2nd grade chapter books. She learned using the DISTAR program (Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons). And she is a much better speller than her mother. The downside was she was bored in KN. I think I even have the Dolche sight word cards somewhere - I'm not sure if I should admit that since the youngest is finishing up grad school.

I view training the dogs as the same as training my kids. If the training method isn't one that would be appropriate for use on a child, then it isn't appropriate for use on my dogs. FWIW, I work with Autistic children and children with various mental illnesses. Physical restraint is the absolute last option. 

I've had to sit through differientation training for the last 4-5 years. Before that, it was called diverse learning.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

LizShort said:


> Ceasar works with dogs who are vicious who would otherwise be put down. These dogs may not respond at first to positive forms of training. Ceasar works intuitively with each animal. Ceasar does use positive methods when they work with that pup.


Not exclusively... and he's hardly the only person who does so. Personally, as far as NatGeo goes.... I much prefer to watch Dogtown. The argument that leash pops and alpha rolls are the only way to deal with an aggressive dog is just so much bunk.... in many (if not most) cases, such methods are capable of making the problem far worse. 


Sorry for the double post... completely forgot about this part.


Julie and Jersey


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Jersey's Mom said:


> But there's a difference between limiting the way teachers instruct children and the law changes that did away with corporeal punishment in schools. Stopping the act of wrapping children across the knuckles (and that was for a minor infraction!) didn't impair the students' ability to learn... quite the opposite actually.
> 
> Julie and Jersey


Just FYI (and no Barb, I don't mean For You Idiots  corporal punishment hasn't been made illegal in many areas, it's just that everyone is so "sue happy" that it's considered not worth the risk of lawsuits. I started teaching about eight years ago, and even then the principal was still paddling if he had written consent of the parents. So for many areas it's more of a district policy than actual law.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Loisiana said:


> Just FYI (and no Barb, I don't mean For You Idiots  corporal punishment hasn't been made illegal in many areas, it's just that everyone is so "sue happy" that it's considered not worth the risk of lawsuits. I started teaching about eight years ago, and even then the principal was still paddling if he had written consent of the parents. So for many areas it more of a district policy than actual law.


You are so right that corporal punishment isn't totally out of mind! I'm not for some "stranger" paddling my kid. But when my older son (who had issues in one school) started a new one....the principal after talking with us about the "issues" took us into his office and showed my son the paddle. He said that he didn't use it anymore but he did allow parents to come in and borrow it if there were problems. My son did really well there...made honor roll. Not just because of that of course...but there were very clear expectations.

His school is a jewel. We live in a low income area...poverty stricken in many of its surroundings..with broken families and struggling parents....and his school is rated as a 10 (highest score) in test scores and quality. After my older kids left home and we had our younger ones...we moved back to that area just for that reason.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

BajaOklahoma said:


> I view training the dogs as the same as training my kids. If the training method isn't one that would be appropriate for use on a child, then it isn't appropriate for use on my dogs.


Do you really believe that? I don't think you can compare children and dogs that closely. I would not offer a piece of food to kids every time they make the slightest bit of progress in learning, but I do with my dogs. I wouldn't lock my kids in a crate to sleep at night. I wouldn't put my kids on leash everytime I'm outside of a fenced in area, but my dogs are no matter how well trained they are. I consider all of those inappropriate for a child, but all of them appropiate for a dog. Dogs aren't kids, and you can't treat them the same.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Loisiana said:


> Just FYI (and no Barb, I don't mean For You Idiots  corporal punishment hasn't been made illegal in many areas, it's just that everyone is so "sue happy" that it's considered not worth the risk of lawsuits. I started teaching about eight years ago, and even then the principal was still paddling if he had written consent of the parents. So for many areas it's more of a district policy than actual law.


That's scary.... I had no idea. Now I'm curious what the situation is here. Good thing it's a snowy weekend, lots of free time!

Interesting use of "sue happy."  Tone is a difficult thing to read on internet forums so I'll just assume that you're not putting parents who expect that teachers will not physically assault their children on the same level with someone who drives with a cup of coffee in their lap (with the lid off while dancing to the music and reaching for their cell phone) and then sues McDonalds when it burns them.... because that doesn't sound like you at all.

Julie and Jersey


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Interesting use of "sue happy."  Tone is a difficult thing to read on internet forums so I'll just assume that you're not putting parents who expect that teachers will not physically assault their children on the same level with someone who drives with a cup of coffee in their lap (with the lid off while dancing to the music and reaching for their cell phone) and then sues McDonalds when it burns them.... because that doesn't sound like you at all.
> 
> Julie and Jersey


No, I apologize that it came out that way, it is my frustration with the lack of what we as teachers can do because it seems every parent is ready to sue the school system. An upset child crying? Don't put a comforting hand on his shoulder, that could be considered sexual harrassment. One kid beating up another kid, don't touch the one doing the beating because if you hurt him you're in trouble. A kid stabs another kid in the throat with a pen, exposes himself in the girls restroom, and daily beats up other children, don't put him into an alternative school setting for that year because you are taking away his educational rights. These are only a small fractions of real lawsuits that take place.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Loisiana said:


> No, I apologize that it came out that way, it is my frustration with the lack of what we as teachers can do because it seems every parent is ready to sue the school system. An upset child crying? Don't put a comforting hand on his shoulder, that could be considered sexual harrassment. One kid beating up another kid, don't touch the one doing the beating because if you hurt him you're in trouble. A kid stabs another kid in the throat with a pen, exposes himself in the girls restroom, and daily beats up other children, don't put him into an alternative school setting for that year because you are taking away his educational rights. These are only a small fractions of real lawsuits that take place.


That makes much more sense. Like I said, it's tough on the internet... but just based on previous conversations we've had I knew that I had to be misinterpreting it somehow. Coming from a family full of teachers, I hear many of these same complaints frequently. It really is a shame and I fully understand your frustration.

Julie and Jersey


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## Fidele (Sep 17, 2008)

LizShort said:


> Learning to differentiate is so difficult!!! I'm still trying to figure this out. ugh. It's so much easier with my dog!!! LOL


Maybe because you're not trying to differentiate learning for 25+ dogs at once? LOL!!!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Loisiana said:


> Do you really believe that? I don't think you can compare children and dogs that closely. I would not offer a piece of food to kids every time they make the slightest bit of progress in learning, but I do with my dogs. I wouldn't lock my kids in a crate to sleep at night. I wouldn't put my kids on leash everytime I'm outside of a fenced in area, but my dogs are no matter how well trained they are. I consider all of those inappropriate for a child, but all of them appropiate for a dog. Dogs aren't kids, and you can't treat them the same.


I think it's interesting that you don't mind comparing teaching kids and training dogs earlier in this thread, but yet you then say the above. When a kid is in school and has trouble concentrating, you aren't going to smack them on the head to get their attention or grab their shirt by the collar and yank it. 

Of course you won't give a child a piece of food for doing something right, instead you will give them praise which is motivating for them. Just like a treat is motivating for a dog. I don't crate my dogs any more, they all graduated once they stopped chewing inappropriately. I locked the doors on my house when my son was little so he couldn't slip outside when I might not be looking. Same theory as using a crate, just on a bigger level. I have seen some kids (my brother was one of them) who have needed to be leashed because they had a tendency to dart away. They don't necessarily call them leashes, but they were tethered to their parents.

I do believe you adapt your training to each individual dog, but I don't believe that has to include sharp physical corrections.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I was comparing a method used on children to using it on dogs, but I didn't say it would work on dogs because it worked on children. The post I was referring to said that if it shouldn't be done to a child it shouldn't be done to a dog, and she gave a specific example (physical restraint). Matching specific methods is different from matching theories.

And if I had an aggressive dog that was trying to attack another dog or a person, you can bet I would be physically restraining that dog. I'm not sure what else you could do except stand by and watch.

I don't believe you need to cause pain to a dog to train it. But I also see nothing wrong with telling a dog "no," touching him while training, and showing him how to be right. I came into this thread to voice my agreement to a post stating that some in the "positive only" camp tend to be much more close-minded about trying ideas outside of their specific set of methods.

I can't really add anything about Ceasar because I've never seen him - I don't get that station.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I don't see anything wrong with telling a dog "no" either. I don't think positive based training means that you can't tell your dog "no" or physically help them get into the proper position. I don't believe positive based trainers are closed minded to progressive training methods, though I do think they are unwilling to use harsh methods. 

If you have a dog that is aggressive and trying to attack other dogs or people, you have a much bigger problem on your hands rather than just simple training issues. I have had one, so I know. But I also know that most dogs who react that way are lashing out defensively because they are scared or anxious. Throwing them down on their side is certainly not going to alleviate those fears, and in most situations can escalate them.


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## Stircrazy (Nov 30, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> I like watching Cesar--granted I did not watch him back in the day. I think he was rougher than, but seems to have grown more as a trainer. While I wouldn't go to the guy for advice on raising a puppy, I thought his puppy episode was not that bad. In fact,he made it a point to pick out the most calm easy going puppies in a litter. Many people were shocked by this, thinking he would want the most outgoing and alpha pup. I totally loved it--most people who want a house companion should go with the easier going dog instead of the little devil.


read his puppy book, the best advice and methods I have ever seen on raising a puppy. but you have to have other dogs to do it.

as for the article what a joke. fear and pain based.. that made me laugh.

Steve


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

fostermom said:


> I don't see anything wrong with telling a dog "no" either. I don't think positive based training means that you can't tell your dog "no" or physically help them get into the proper position. I don't believe positive based trainers are closed minded to progressive training methods, though I do think they are unwilling to use harsh methods.


But there are many trainers who do feel this way, and these are the ones I was referring to. There is a huge world of difference between positive based and "pure positive" (and pure positive is in quotes because yes, I know there is not really such a thing in training when talking about the four quadrants but I don't know a better term to use for it). The first group is what I think the majority of trainers today are with varying degrees. When I think of the second group, I think of Karen Pryor. From what I understand, her methods do not allow any of the things I listed. As a matter of fact, I was reading an email this week from a person who couldn't be put on Karen Pryor's Honor Roll list for her accomplishments with her dog because there were a few times when her dog went to break a stay and she told the dog "eh."

And that's why I cringe everytime someone on this lists tells someone to find a "positive only" trainer. I would't send someone to a trainer that believes the way to teach is just through a series of jerks on a choke chain, but I also wouldn't send them to someone who thinks it's wrong to tell a dog no. For some dogs that method may work great, but I'd rather send a person to a trainer that gives them the options that work for that dog, rather than forcing them to follow a set of such limiting rules. And I just can't wrap my head around hands-off dog training. My training is very much hands-on, it is a great way to create a connection between dog and handler. So rather than sending someone to a person that believes all training should be hands-off, I would rather a trainer who sees the benefit of some things and some dogs being trained that way, and encouraging touch for others.


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

Well, one of my favorite words is "no", however I seldom use it with my dogs. DH - yes all the time. 

I don't believe in all the PC stuff, either in dog training or in life. I do believe in "positive" and "fun". Both of my dogs are soft, Darby is extremely that way and although I am not sure what exactly "hands-off" refers too I do know that part of his reward process is touching, lots of pats, hugs and pets when he does well, followed by a treat. When he screws up (which is frequently) I say "ought-awh" and "lets try again" in an upbeat voice. When I begin to get frustrated we stop. Positive - sure, but if necessary like him lunging at a dog that is curling a lip I will shout a brisk "NO" "Leave It". Because when I mean business - _*I mean business*_. No arguement and no compromise.

Just like *No Bite* means _take your mouth off_ and *No Bark* means _Shut Up_. I haven't used either of those commands in a long long time. Sometimes _*NO*_ is a very good word.


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## 12687 (Feb 24, 2010)

I enjoy Ceasar-he just gets dogs and pack behavior. A good trainer needs to be open minded. It has been my personal experience that the all positive "trainers" in our area are very close minded. And we have had an increase in aggressive, bratty dogs at our local vets-coming out of one particular "basic obedience" class. This info I got-from my vet, who is a very good friend and sees a large % of the dogs in our area. Why is it that people think corrections are a bad thing? Or that they have to be brutal to be effective? A good trainer has lots of tools in their toolbox-I personaly believe that agression meets agression. My dogs are trained with a combo of positive and correction training. Most of the time just my saying "no" or "wrong" will do the trick-others I may have to bounce Ryder with his flat collar,(obedience trng) which is always followed by a reward. To him a correction is no big deal. His ecollar is for field work-the dog brings it to me to go work,some day I'm going to video him as we get ready to train,gee one really unhappy dog trying to tear the door off to get the whistles, calls and collar or jumping into the truck before I can even get the tailgate down-before I get bashed here-I invite anyone to train with me first then bash away. My dogs are always wagging through training-yep they occasionally get corrections with the collar,but it isn't my main "training" tool and it should not be a teaching tool IMHO-if it was then shame on me. Ask the people who compete repeatedly and sucessfully-with numerous dogs-not one hit wonders(ob, agility, hunting-whatever your sport) to the highest levels, asking our dogs to amazing things, ask them if they ever use corrections-if they say no I would bets dollars to doughnuts they are lying thru their teeth.
Weezie the terrier gets told no or bounced on her flat buckle-followed with a treat- in agility and ob training and at home. She also hunts and when in the field she has to listen, no matter what-live ammo and birds can be very inticing for a dog to go auto pilot-deadly for everyone with a OFC dog-so she does wear her tri tronics jr(which by the way when I pull out launches her into fits of happiness-because we are going field training or hunting) I hunt my golds and compete in JH, SH and MH-its my job to teach first, and to always be fair, consistent, & TIMELY in my praise or corrections. A well trained dog is a happy dog. FTR-I used to train without the ecollar. So I am familar with both sides of the fence on that topic.


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## crh131 (Jun 1, 2010)

I just bought and am 1/2 way through his puppy book. I thought I heard that it was supposed to be the best one (puppy book) out there.
As I have been reading it I kept telling my husband,.."well I know this is supposed to be the best...BUTTT.." lol 
Like he keeps talking about "energy"..telling the dog no with your energy and such.
And it seems to be a lot about how to raise a puppy with a pack of other extremely well trained dogs.

Anyway,..what puppy training book would you suggest? I really need a simple, clear cut one. 
I believe in "energy",.but I honestly don't know how to train a dog using it.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

I am just reading this post and found so many points i wanted to respond to...say AMEN to, aggree with and comment on, and needed to get to the end of all the posts...now its so hard to compile my thoughts!!

I too work with children, preschoolers with disabilities. First off...let me say i LOVE my kids. I'm usually embarassed to admit how often the training I use on my dogs, I've used similarly with *some* of my kids. That is NOT trying to put an awful type of comparison on it....but still...YIKES it sounds awful, but I am sure you understand where I am coming from. To the poster that states you wouldnt use treats every time a child does something right...well welcome to the world of ABA Applied behavior analysis. It is very commonly used with children that have autism. Of course, as the child progresses...you would progress to praise as a motivator, but sometimes, you just gotta get to the basic desires of the child....and special treats just do it for some kids. Screaming yayyyy good for you, or just hugging would NOT work for some children...in fact it could be something they avoid. 

I like watching Cesar. I may not totally agree with all the things he does, but I really never saw him to be mean to dogs. Maybe I missed the episodes....but nonetheless, I like him and find some of the things he does amazing. As far as rolling a dog on his side if he is aggressive....that is only dogs that he feels are NOT fear based aggressive dogs. He differentiates that when he spends time with them. He treats fear aggresion differently. Lets not forget, also, he gets some cases where the families are near the end of the rope.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I realize the original thread is old

Crh: this is my very favorite puppy book. It's written by a veterinary behaviorist and a vet tech with a behavior specialization (one of the three in the country!)
http://www.veterinarybehavior.com/store.html

And any kid comments....those people might want to look into TagTeach. Absoulutely changed how I work with students, adult and kids.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

BTW - the symposium people have been announced. CM is not on the list.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I wasn't a fan of Cesar Milan when I first saw him. I told my husband that the man was going to become very popular shooshing and smacking dogs on the side. I've seen a couple of shows recently that I really liked, with him capturing appropriate behaviours and ignoring old ones.

On the physical corrections - I would say that it's situational to the dog and the type of training/work involved. I would have had sheep without tails if I hadn't pushed Dru out of the way a few times. In the training that I've done, with an intense, exuberant young dog, there have been times when the devil got into my young dogs! In sheep training, there is a long fiberglass wand that is an extension of your hand. This is used to teach flanks and keep a dog on a straight line by blocking one side and calling the correct one as the dog turns. "Come by," "Away to me" and "there" are commands that are taught with the use of the wand as a blocker. To someone who is watching training for the first time, like me the first time, it looked like the dog was being intimidated. I hated it and didn't want anything to do with it. But once I opened my mind I saw that in a small pen, with "school sheep" that were used to dogs, the wand was nothing more than an extension of the trainer's arm. The dog wasn't being intimated, but taught to turn in the opposite direction in order to place a command to the side he just turned. Later, the wand became useful when, I just mentioned, Dru decided he would take out one sheep's tail. Had I not stepped in with the want and pushed his mouth away, the sheep would have been harmed. At that moment, I needed a negative correction because Dru just lost his marbles. And because I had a sheep that was at that moment endangered.

While I don't see the same need with golden retrievers, there may be situations when the dog may need a negative correction to save its life. In snake avoidance classes it is necessary to have the dog understand that he must never, under any circumstances, approach a snake.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Lilliam said:


> While I don't see the same need with golden retrievers, there may be situations when the dog may need a negative correction to save its life. In snake avoidance classes it is necessary to have the dog understand that he must never, under any circumstances, approach a snake.


What about with field training? I'm told it is common for a dog to eat at least one bird during its career and amount of positive reinforcement (toys, treats, praise) is going to get a bird from a high prey drive who wants to eat. He's got strong positive reinforcement in his mouth--and having a dog eat birds is, well, bad


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

fostermom said:


> See, I think that if a trainer believes that it's not necessary to cause pain or discomfort to a dog to teach them something, there shouldn't be any flexibility expected when it comes to that.
> 
> I don't think that being "open minded" is necessarily a good thing when it comes to using training that causes pain. I guess I can't see any justification in hurting a dog just to create a shortcut to training them something.


 
Many "positive only" trainers consider ANY correction unnecessary and "painful" or "hurting a dog", which is absolutely untrue. I know positive only trainers who will not even say "No" or use a sharp even low, growling voice. There must be a middle ground, and even more importantly, the _individual_ DOG must be considered, and understood. Dog training is not One Size Fits All.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

There's room for both.

Gilmour can be hard-headed as hell, and during grooming his breeder sometimes has to go a little "Ceaser" on him 



Lucky's mom said:


> I'm just expressing my opinion based on my own experiences on this and other forums. I think its easier for a trainer who sees the value of negative tactics and positive to be more open-minded. Where a positive only trainer will not consider some techniques even though it may produce beneficial results because they are not open to them.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

GoldenSail: Re: eating birds... can you point out a few of the places you've heard that? I've heard that it's more common for some other breeds to try and dissect birds... I want to ask someone about this but I want a little more info first. 

Note: A bird in the mouth is a -reinforcer- NOT a "positive reinforcement. There is not "something the animal will work for" added to the situation. 

I was at a seminar last weekend where there was a lot of talk on foraging (and other) motor patterns in dogs... I will now NOT be giving stuffies to dissect or other types of toys to be torn up to my dog who might do field work. A good understanding of motor problems might be useful for anyone looking at the dissecting behavior/s.



Pointgold said:


> Many "positive only" trainers consider ANY correction unnecessary and "painful" or "hurting a dog", which is absolutely untrue. I know positive only trainers who will not even say "No" or use a sharp even low, growling voice. There must be a middle ground, and even more importantly, the _individual_ DOG must be considered, and understood. Dog training is not One Size Fits All.


I think there's a few misconceptions here. It's not necessarily that most "positive only trainers" believe verbal reprimands and/or some physical ones will hurt the dog or be painful.... it's more that there is risk of fallout from punishment and if behaviors are breaking down, we need to look at why we are getting non compliance....generally it's related to poor fluency (leading to poor chains) or poor reinforcement history. 

It's also a misconception that positive/clicker training is only "one way". I have many ways of teaching each behavior and solving each problem. We typically use several different approaches for each scenario to be sure that the dog understands the concepts (and the owner!). My colleagues have many different approaches too, without using punishment. Most would agree it would be silly to lump together all "correction-using" trainers into one group and say they only have "one way" of training, there are so many variations on approach, tactics, vocabularies, skill sets, etc... It's unfortunate the same thing is done with positive training.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

RedDogs said:


> GoldenSail: Re: eating birds... can you point out a few of the places you've heard that? I've heard that it's more common for some other breeds to try and dissect birds... I want to ask someone about this but I want a little more info first.
> 
> Note: A bird in the mouth is a -reinforcer- NOT a "positive reinforcement. There is not "something the animal will work for" added to the situation.
> 
> ...


 
I said "many", not "most", and there is a big difference. For me, the point is that every dog is an indivdual and needs to be treated/trained, as such. Too many owners/trainers do not understand their dogs and are committed to a "method". Again, it's not a One Size Fits All venture.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

GoldenSail said:


> What about with field training? I'm told it is common for a dog to eat at least one bird during its career and amount of positive reinforcement (toys, treats, praise) is going to get a bird from a high prey drive who wants to eat. He's got strong positive reinforcement in his mouth--and having a dog eat birds is, well, bad


 
Oooo, I'm not at all familiar with field training....it would be quite presumptious for me to speak on it!!!:doh:

I was speaking strictly from the perspective of obedience, agility, assisted animal therapy.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> Many "positive only" trainers consider ANY correction unnecessary and "painful" or "hurting a dog", which is absolutely untrue. I know positive only trainers who will not even say "No" or use a sharp even low, growling voice. There must be a middle ground, and even more importantly, the _individual_ DOG must be considered, and understood. Dog training is not One Size Fits All.


I agree with this absolutely. 
To use my three most recent dogs - 
Cassie outsmarted me and ran her own drills but was not aggressive to sheep. She was soft to correction and moderate on sheep. She needed no whistles other than directions. Insanely talented, but a bit of a diva - she held a grudge and knew how to manipulate me into feeling guilty.

Dru is the most intense dog I have ever seen. He tuned me out in his early training so I had to maintain contact. I did have to push him out, at times physically stepping into his path or pushing him out with the wand. Had I not done so, he would have taken a bite. He is hard to correction and hard on stock.

Billy is a dream dog. He is soft to correction and hard on stock. Totally biddable. Did not try to go over what was needed, listened to my whistles from day one. No muss, no fuss. Not as talented as his sister but more of a team player.

It would be incorrect to train those three dogs in the same way.


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## eirepup (Apr 14, 2010)

While I don't agree with all of Ceaser's methods I do think that some of his cases for helping dogs overcome fears and shyness and building trust can be quite good. From watching the show I did start walking out of the door before Finn and having Finn walking behind or beside me on walks not really because I believe in the pack leader going first thing but just because Finn gets a little over excited when the leash comes out and used to pull a lot so I like to have a few rules. Have to say the more I find out about positive methods the more I like it but I will say "no" to Finn.


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## Chelseanr (Oct 3, 2010)

I do like Ceasar in some ways. I watched all his pack leader dvd's before getting Rowan and I learned a lot from some of them like "Sit and stay the Ceasar way" which was basically 100% positive training. I do like how he talks about energy, when we first got Rowan I was too "soft" and he didn't take me seriously so I had to learn to be harder and he started listening to me better. I for sure think "energy" is a huge part of training depending on what you want from your dog. 

And I have seen some amazing fearful dog episodes where Ceasar just basically trys to help them fulfill their needs and become more stable, and at the end seen a completely different much happier dog leave his facility. 

He doesn't strike me as a closed minded person and I do see him tempting with chicken to "distract the mind" etc a lot.


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## Svan (Mar 2, 2011)

My dog is a domesticated wolf with pack instinct who looks to me as his pack leader for guidance as to how he should behave. He is not a human & to him we are simply very tall dogs. We are his pack & he is happy when he, like us all, understands what is expected of him at any given time. He needs consistency and acceptance and to be a fully respected member of his pack. *You do not need another pack of well trained dogs to help train your dog, you just need everyone in your family to be aware of how the dog reads their body language, emotions & behaviour ("energy" in CM terms).

I rehabilitate rescue dogs who have issues. Long before CM came along my research into dog and wolf behaviour convinced me to use this method.

When my dog came home as a pup he was formally introduced to the pack. He came up to each of us where we lay with him on the grass & licked our chins for approval. We made it clear to him that we accepted him & valued him & you could see how happy that made him. He has been a loved & respected member of our family ever since.*

We confuse our dogs when we treat them like humans with fur. Whilst they can & do adapt to the way we "speak" with our bodies, emotion & voices, we also need to be aware of the fact that they are hard-wired for dog-dog pack relationships & that we can confuse them if we use "language" that they (dogs) understand differently from humans.*

Whilst I have used praise & treats in my training I feel exclusive use of these is demeaning to my dog. He is not just a dumb pet to be tricked or bribed into doing things, he is an intelligent fellow-creature with whom I have a relationship that is respectful of his true being & nature.*

I believe this is what CM is on about & enjoy watching him save dogs and train their owners.*


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

He needs to to keep his franchise profitable.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

and what happens when she vaults the fence at a foo-foo show chasing after a bunch of birds  




12687 said:


> Weezie the terrier gets told no or bounced on her flat buckle-followed with a treat- in agility and ob training and at home. She also hunts and when in the field she has to listen, no matter what-live ammo and birds can be very inticing for a dog to go auto pilot-deadly for everyone with a OFC dog-so she does wear her tri tronics jr(which by the way when I pull out launches her into fits of happiness-because we are going field training or hunting).


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