# Animal Control was called on me today...have to vent!



## californiagirl (Dec 11, 2009)

So I'm driving home from work today and get a call from the landlord saying that animal control came and took my dog and there was a note on the door saying "dog found crying with no food." So I rush home to get the paperwork and to get my dog. 

Come to find out, Daisy is in the back yard. So I go to the shelter to discuss this matter. Apparently my "lovely" neighbors called in a neglect call because Daisy is a puppy and cries when she hears people that aren't paying attention to her. She is not left outside with food because she gets fed twice a day, once in the AM and once in the PM. She ALWAYS has a big bowl of water and chew toys outside with her. I work 8-5, 30 minutes away, so I am gone from about 7:30-5:30 daily. My boyfriend doesn't leave usually until about 8am so she is outside for the majority of the day. 

Part of the neglect call was that she was left outside in the rain. It may have sprinkled 30 minutes yesterday. Other than that its been sunny for weeks!

When I get home we play fetch or go for a walk and on the weekends we go to the beach or park each day. 

I am so upset with my neighbors for not talking to me at all about this before they called animal services. 

I understand and am glad that animal control takes neglect calls very serious but am upset that these same neighbors NEVER let there dogs out and have the mind to call the law on me...

Sorry for the novel but I have to vent and would like some advice on how to handle this situation...I have gone next door and asked that if they have a problem in the future to please come knock and I'd be more than happy to try and work something out, but am not sure how well that went over seeing as how the girl I was talking to was proabably 18 and wouldn't even open the door for me.


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## AtticusJordie (Aug 15, 2006)

Well, you've taken the correct first steps--talking to the folks who called this in.

Hmmmmmmm--so she's outside for the majority of the day? And she's a puppy? I don't know the whole of your situation but if I were the neighbor, I'd get a little unnerved if a puppy were left crying all day--whether the pupper just wanted some attention or not. Any chance you could work with your neighbors to look in on the little guy a bit during the day?

Just a thought...

SJ


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

AtticusJordie said:


> Hmmmmmmm--so she's outside for the majority of the day? And she's a puppy? I don't know the whole of your situation but if I were the neighbor, I'd get a little unnerved if a puppy were left crying all day--whether the pupper just wanted some attention or not. Any chance you could work with your neighbors to look in on the little guy a bit during the day?
> 
> Just a thought...
> 
> SJ


I totally agree. If I ever saw that one of our neighbors was leaving their puppy or even adult dog alone outside all day and the puppy/dog was crying, I would be tempted to call animal control myself. I would especially be upset if there was a poor pup left out in the rain. Is there a reason why she can't be inside while you're not home? Do you have a crate for her? There are just too many potential dangers of leaving a dog outside alone all day, especially a young puppy. A nice crate with a couple of toys to keep her occupied would be a much better place for her to be when you're not home.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

jwemt81 said:


> I totally agree. If I ever saw that one of our neighbors was leaving their puppy or even adult dog alone outside all day and the puppy/dog was crying, I would be tempted to call animal control myself. I would especially be upset if there was a poor pup left out in the rain. Is there a reason why she can't be inside while you're not home? Do you have a crate for her? There are just too many potential dangers of leaving a dog outside alone all day, especially a young puppy. A nice crate with a couple of toys to keep her occupied would be a much better place for her to be when you're not home.


Third person here to agree. If your pup tends to bark at people who don't pay attention to her, well, she's going to see and hear more people outside than inside your home. Also, sounds like AC was citing your local anti-cruelty laws if they mentioned no access to food--there must be some standards that when you provide shelter to your pet, you must provide food, water and housing. That's not unusual to be written into laws.

I know that the internet is ripe with stories about dog owners who met up with Animal Control and for some reason or other either paid fines, or, IMHO, an even worse horror, lost their dog(s). I would take this situation very seriously, and I think it's good that you are going to talk to your neighbor, but insuring that the noise problem doesn't repeat itself is probably going to get you far more cred with them.


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## Noey (Feb 26, 2009)

how old is your puppy?


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

Based on what you wrote, you should seriously reconsider having a dog at this point in your life. Please get it rehomed while it is still a puppy and easily placed.

I was going to make a long post addressing the many questions/concerns your post raises in my mind. However, based on the tone of your post, I won't waste your time.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Keep your puppy indoors and all of your problems with your neighbor will disappear. Other than being left outside as a pup and for the above mentioned period of time, you seem to be a good owner.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I agree that this puppy should be inside. Crate her so that she is safe, and see if you can get someone to let her out during the day. This could be an opportunity to work with you neighbor, perhaps. They might be willing to help you by letting the puppy out, and they'd also see that you are trying to remedy the situation and to do what is best for the puppy.
I have to say that I'd be upset by a young puppy left outdoors all day, as well - rain or not.


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## MyMaggieGirl (Nov 12, 2008)

I agree with the others. Your pup (or any dog) should not be left alone outside all day long, in my opinion. But it also needs to be safe inside your home, too.

What's to stop someone from taking your pup from your yard while you're not home/watching??

Have you considered doggie daycare or a dog walker? IMHO well worth the $$$.

Good luck!


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

I work from 7 AM to 4 PM. I have summers off so I got Max at the beginning of that break. Going back to work and leaving him alone that long was very hard on him I know. I pay my friend to come over around noon to let him out and play with him for a while. I would never have considered to leave him outside for the day even when it is warm, he could have gotten into too many things or someone could have gotten to him and I would have been crushed. He's 9 months old now and does much better inside for the day but I still and will likely continue to pay my friend to come and see him every day.

There are a couple things maybe you don't understand. 1. You can't leave a puppy outside all day. Chew toys and water is not a substitute for your supervision. 2. If you intend to keep this puppy, then you need to look into and crate train the little guy so he is safe all day inside. You should, IMO have someone come in to check on him middle of the day and play with him/walk him if he/she is old enough. 

Sorry to say, but as your neighbor, I would have called you in as well or at least seriously thought about it. Leaving a puppy especially outside alone that long is not okay. As a dog owner myself, I would never ever do that. I waited until I had the time necessary to take off and spend with Max and when you have a puppy, if you can you need to work around him or her as much as you can. Does your BF and you have different days off? Can you ask your bosses so you can change themso you have 4 different days off a week until your puppy is old enough to spend the day alone? On days that you both do work, pay someone to come around noon or 1 to let your dog out and spend some play time with him/her. If you did these things, your home would be a much more ideal home for a dog.



If you see the thread, what sacrifices did you make for your puppy? you will see that the original poster has done a really good job of planning for this pup and making her and her families schedule work for her puppy. If you are both away the same 5 days, then perhaps this really isn't the time in your life for a dog. That doesn't make you a mean animal abuser with a ticket to hell, but it does make you a poor owner at this point in your life.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Whether this puppy is inside or not, she needs to have somebody to care for her during the 9 1/2 hours she is alone for. I agree that the pup will be safer indoors but to put a puppy in a cage for over 9 hours is not a suitable alternative...infact I would argue that her actual quality of life would be better as she is in the garden than in a crate for such extended periods (*don't get me wrong, a crate is preferable for her safety*...but her actual mental and physical stimulation, not to mention her ability to walk around is better in the garden...NOT that you should leave her in the garden, she should be in ASAP!) My point is, I am urging you to not just put this pup in a crate and think that at least she will be safe, IMO that is no where near close enough to the standard of care a puppy should receive. You options (IMO) are to either employ somebody to look after this pup for a few hours in the day or ask friends/family to do the same. Good luck, I can see you care for your puppy but at the moment she needs a little more from you to be happy and safe.


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## olik (Apr 13, 2008)

agree with others.Keep puppy inthe crate,let someone to come over to let him go pee in afternoon and problem will be sold.


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

Hopefully you do not view this as all of us ganging up against you. Everyone here wants to help you do what is best for your pup. I agree with the other posters. You need to change up your routine to give your pup a safe environment to learn and grow. Being crated inside with someone visiting at lunch is not a bad or cruel thing. Your neighbor obviously cares about the welfare of your puppy. Perhaps you can use that to your advantage and offer to pay her to come by and take your puppy out and play during lunch for you. This may be hard to fathom right now, but you probably should be thanking her for calling AC, as it has prevented something tragic happening to your pup while you are at work, and now you have the opportunity to rethink your routine-


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

A 3 mths old pup,shouldn't be left,outside,alone,at all!.
They don't have an adult coat to insultate them or the fat and will,automatically get into trouble or be stolen!.
Many people,here,have a full time job and manage with a pup,in the house!.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Does your pup have shelter? And has s/he been trained to use that shelter? Is s/he in a securely fenced area? Your pup is not tied, right?

Hopefully between your talk with AC and with your neighbors this can be resolved. Your neighbors were wrong not to talk to you first IMHO but they did what they felt was best for your dog ..

If your neighbors are still being inclined to call AC or the pup cannot be quieter, you might need to consider crating the pup during the work day and having a dog walker come in (less expensive than day care). If you do need to crate the pup his/her morning and evening exercise will become even more important to help prevent problems...both physical and emotional.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Looking at your recent posts regarding potty-training & the poo eating, having her outside for that length of time is doing nothing to reinforce the desired behavior...a crate with mid-day check-ups/potty & play break sounds like the best solution.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I will give you my two cents on the problem and you can decide to take it the way it is meant or interpret as another giving you a hard time.
First thing you need to understand is whoever called animal control did so because of concern for your pup and for no other reason. I agree it may have been better to talk to you first but sometimes folks are afraid to confront the "problem" directly. 
A 13 - 14 week old pup really should not be left outside unattended for any length of time. There is too much that can go wrong. 
It appears as if there is someone that cares enough to call animal control that they would be likely able and willing to help you out and take the pup out once or twice while you are at work so she can relieve herself. So I believe crating her in the house during the day would be the best for all concerned and it really is not cruel and eventually you will probably be able to leave her loose in your place while you are at work. But that would be much further down the road. 
Ideally in a perfect world you or your boyfriend would be able to be with all day and night long, but that quite often is not possible so you look for ways to make your situation work. It can work but you will need to do a lot of work to make it happen. 
Do you know for sure who called animal control? If so go to them and tell them you understand why they did it and were hoping they might be able to help you out. If it is not possible to offer money maybe you can barter with them. Some service you can do for them in return for them helping with the pup during the day. They may be receptive and they may not. Another possibility might be the landlord. 

Good luck and please let us know how it works out.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Does she have shelter to get into outside in case the weather changes suddenly? That's a major problem in my opinion. 

I agree with others that your puppy should not be left outside unattended for that length of time.

You said you work 30 minutes from home, the best arrangement for your puppies saftey and well being would be to be crated inside, and then you come home during lunch to let her out for a potty break.


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## ggdenny (Nov 2, 2008)

I know at this point that it seems like we're all ganging up on you, but honestly that's a very long time for a puppy to be alone with no human interaction. Golden's are very social animals and need constant human contact, especially as a puppy for forming a bond of love and trust. Your pup should be inside in a crate with plenty of (safe) toys and distractions. If you can afford it I would at the very least consider hiring a dog walker to visit once per day, or ask your concerned neighbor if they'll pop over to spend some time with your pup.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

I see a lot of posts here and no return one from the OP. I understand that a lot of people get into having a puppy and don't really understand what they are getting into and how much work and time and energy that puppy deserves once you get them. The OP needs to understand that most of us here that care enough to reply to her post are not just golden owners but dog lovers. If the OP really loves her dog and wants to make it work, then she can but she needs to understand that she needs to change her concept of puppy care, safety, and the amount of time and interaction a 3 month old golden pup needs. I hope the OP thinks about what has been said - and I will add to the idea that I'm not attacking you - just informing you. The thing is, we are not your best friend or your family members so we are less likely to pat you on the head and say oh, there there, everything will be okay. We are here to give you honest opinions and sometimes it's not what you want to hear. I hope that the OP posts a reply to this thread to show she understands we aren't trying to hurt her, only help.


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## ggdenny (Nov 2, 2008)

momtoMax said:


> I see a lot of posts here and no return one from the OP. I understand that a lot of people get into having a puppy and don't really understand what they are getting into and how much work and time and energy that puppy deserves once you get them. The OP needs to understand that most of us here that care enough to reply to her post are not just golden owners but dog lovers. If the OP really loves her dog and wants to make it work, then she can but she needs to understand that she needs to change her concept of puppy care, safety, and the amount of time and interaction a 3 month old golden pup needs. I hope the OP thinks about what has been said - and I will add to the idea that I'm not attacking you - just informing you. The thing is, we are not your best friend or your family members so we are less likely to pat you on the head and say oh, there there, everything will be okay. We are here to give you honest opinions and sometimes it's not what you want to hear. I hope that the OP posts a reply to this thread to show she understands we aren't trying to hurt her, only help.


So well stated.


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

momtoMax said:


> I see a lot of posts here and no return one from the OP. I understand that a lot of people get into having a puppy and don't really understand what they are getting into and how much work and time and energy that puppy deserves once you get them. The OP needs to understand that most of us here that care enough to reply to her post are not just golden owners but dog lovers. If the OP really loves her dog and wants to make it work, then she can but she needs to understand that she needs to change her concept of puppy care, safety, and the amount of time and interaction a 3 month old golden pup needs. I hope the OP thinks about what has been said - and I will add to the idea that I'm not attacking you - just informing you. The thing is, we are not your best friend or your family members so we are less likely to pat you on the head and say oh, there there, everything will be okay. We are here to give you honest opinions and sometimes it's not what you want to hear. I hope that the OP posts a reply to this thread to show she understands we aren't trying to hurt her, only help.


Well said. The second paragraph of my response was perhaps too strong. I had two major concerns when I read the original post. First and foremost was concern for the puppy's physical and mental well-being. Second was concern about the OP's attitude. If she were embarrassed that AC was called and came here looking for ideas to improve her puppy's situation I would have responded much differently. Instead she came here to vent because someone had the audacity to call AC.

OP thinks it is ok to leave a Golden puppy outside all day because it has a big bowl of water. What condition do you think that water is in by the end of the day? Sorry, I'm getting all riled up again.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Californiagirl,

What you have described is serious neglect. The decision to bring a puppy home should be given as much consideration as you would having a child, or getting married, or buying a home. With all the information and resources available today, you seem to be lacking a fundamental understanding of what Daisy needs. Besides food, water and shelter, Daisy is going through important developmental stages. This is going to seem harsh, but if you don't see why it is wrong to leave a young puppy alone outdoors all day, I cannot imagine you being able to address her socialization and training. Either you get it, or you don't. I don't think you get it. I believe you are not at the point in your life where you can care for a puppy. Daisy's young life is at stake. Perhaps you should consider re-homing her.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Marty's Mom said:


> Californiagirl,
> 
> What you have described is neglect. The decision to bring a puppy home should be given as much consideration as you would having a child, or getting married, or buying a home. With all the information and resources available today, you seem to be lacking a fundamental understanding of what Daisy needs. Besides food, water and shelter, Daisy is going through important developmental stages. This is going to seem harsh, but if you don't see why it is wrong to leave a young puppy alone outdoors all day, I cannot imagine you being able to address her socialization and training. Either you get it, or you don't. I am so sorry, but I don't think you do. I believe you are not at the point in your life where you can care for a puppy. Daisy's young life is at stake. Perhaps you should consider re-homing her.


Wow - that is harsh! She came to this forum for help, not to be condemned. Normally I would not post anything like but that post of yours was less than helpful and mean-spitited.


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## Susan6953 (Jun 9, 2008)

One possibility that has not been mentioned is taking your pup to work with you. When Jamie was a puppy I took him to work with me and kept him in his crate in the car (it was fall here and the car was in the shade). I started when he was 8 weeks old and went out and walked him every hour then less often as he got older and was able to hold it longer. At lunch we would play and then back in the crate for the afternoon.

I realize in California this might not work in summer but maybe you could do it for a few months while he is such a young puppy. By the time it is too hot for that he might be old enough to stay home alone inside your house.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Marty's Mom said:


> Californiagirl,
> 
> What you have described is serious neglect. The decision to bring a puppy home should be given as much consideration as you would having a child, or getting married, or buying a home. With all the information and resources available today, you seem to be lacking a fundamental understanding of what Daisy needs. Besides food, water and shelter, Daisy is going through important developmental stages. This is going to seem harsh, but if you don't see why it is wrong to leave a young puppy alone outdoors all day, I cannot imagine you being able to address her socialization and training. Either you get it, or you don't. I don't think you get it. I believe you are not at the point in your life where you can care for a puppy. Daisy's young life is at stake. Perhaps you should consider re-homing her.


The first part of this post is very blunt, honest, and not mean spirted. I think you go maybe a bit overboard when you hit the I don't think you get it part. This person is obviously super passionate about what they are feeling. Sometimes when you see so much red it's hard not to go a bit too out there. I don't understand either why someone would think that leaving a 3 month old puppy outside but the good news it's, she's not 6 months and been out there even longer. Yes, the OP needs to understand what a puppy really entails and hopefully when that happens, she can get advice about, okay so what should I be doing? and ideas or she'll see that maybe this wasn't the best time for a puppy and rehoming the baby is best for her. I don't know which way she'll go once she 'gets it' but I am hoping that a person who walks a dog every day after 9 hours of work and goes to the park in her off time for the benefit of her dog has the potential to learn and make things work.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Susan6953 said:


> One possibility that has not been mentioned is taking your pup to work with you. When Jamie was a puppy I took him to work with me and kept him in his crate in the car (it was fall here and the car was in the shade). I started when he was 8 weeks old and went out and walked him every hour then less often as he got older and was able to hold it longer. At lunch we would play and then back in the crate for the afternoon.
> 
> I realize in California this might not work in summer but maybe you could do it for a few months while he is such a young puppy. By the time it is too hot for that he might be old enough to stay home alone inside your house.



Honestly I wouldn't do this anywhere in southern CA, any time of year. We have sunshine pretty much year round, and even in cool weather, the sun can heat up a car really quickly.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I don't know how old your pup is....but if she is three months the outdoors is too big a place for her. They have no judgement....at all... and obviously she is crying causing problems with the neighbors. A puppy may cry in a crate at first, but she will feel its security and she is safe from choking on something and from being stolen.

I had an outside puppy years ago that somehow wrapped his teeth in the chain link fence....thank God we were home....there was no way he could have gotten out of that on his own.

When your pup gets older.....then you will possibly have issues like digging, tearing up the backyard, getting out.....

If you crate train your pup it will be good for her and for you too. 

I like the idea of employing the the neighbors to take her out once or twice a day. I would pay them...even if just a little... to keep resentment away...its just good practice in my opinion. Obviously someone is home all day so it might be a good win/ win....they get some extra money and a chance to play with a puppy and you feel more at ease when you at work.

I'm not totally against outside dogs but I personally have had very bad experiences with it and will never again have an outside dog and all my puppies will be brought up inside...that is where they will spend the majority of their time.


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## Cheryl and buddy (Oct 24, 2009)

I don't think anyone here has been too harsh. I can't stand to think about that poor baby scared and lonely all day!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I have to agree with Sharon here. I read nothing in the OP that would indicate she is not capable of raising this pup. I think the initial reaction to someone calling Animal Control is quite normal. I think they came here "hoping" to be told they are ok and the caller is wrong but that is not the message she has received, thankfully. I can only hope the tone of our responses has not chased her away and she will be able to return to learn from this situation. I am willing to bet there are very few of us that "got it" right from the start with our first dog, I know I did not.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I wonder if you or your boyfriend can take the pup right with you to work? In my town, there's a dog at the bank, one at our lawyer's office, and one at a local bookstore. Bosses can sometimes come through on this. I taught high school English for years, and now teach college- I always have a golden with me in class & office hours. Surprisingly few people mind or are allergic or anything as long as the dog/ puppy is well-behaved.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

FWIW, I agree with the other posters that this puppy should not be left outside all day. Too many things can happen. Aside from the dangers within your yard, people can and do steal dogs right out of yards, and natural predators like hawks and coyotes prey on outside pets... just nothing I'd feel safe about, especially with a small puppy. Also boredom in dogs can lead to constant barking, digging in the yard, and even sometimes digging OUT of the yard and getting free. Invest in a crate and see about a dogwalker to come by for a mid-day potty break. Or get some baby gates and confine the pup to a small safe area in the house with a pee-pad. Both are infinitely better options than having the puppy outdoors all day unattended.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

Well, it appears she might not be coming back. That is too bad. I think there was a lot of really good help offered here. I read this last night, but thought it would be better for me to "cool down" overnight before responding. I live less than 2 hours north of the OP and we have already had 10 INCHES of rain this season. Poor puppy !


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

momtoMax said:


> The first part of this post is very blunt, honest, and not mean spirted. I think you go maybe a bit overboard when you hit the I don't think you get it part. This person is obviously super passionate about what they are feeling. Sometimes when you see so much red it's hard not to go a bit too out there. I don't understand either why someone would think that leaving a 3 month old puppy outside but the good news it's, she's not 6 months and been out there even longer. Yes, the OP needs to understand what a puppy really entails and hopefully when that happens, she can get advice about, okay so what should I be doing? and ideas or she'll see that maybe this wasn't the best time for a puppy and rehoming the baby is best for her. I don't know which way she'll go once she 'gets it' but I am hoping that a person who walks a dog every day after 9 hours of work and goes to the park in her off time for the benefit of her dog has the potential to learn and make things work.


We may simply have different standards for what is a reasonable level of care. Its true that I am very passionate about the great loves in my live - that being my family, friends, and our Goldens (and all dogs) - and I do stick my neck out to say what I believe should be said. Leaving a puppy outside all day, every day - it is too much for me to look past. Would the humane society or any breeder find this acceptable? Usually when someone calls Animal Control, it has been going on for a while. We don't know all the facts, but there are too many cases like this. I do find this very frustrating - in this day and age - but I am not unkind. If I could talk to CalforniaGirl, I would speak to her the same - "what are you thinking?" comes to mind. Not to hurt her - but to get her attention. 

I don't think what was described is intentional neglect - but my opinion has not changed. I think CaliforniaGirl should think hard about how much she is willing to (or able to) extend herself to care for Daisy. In my view, that is a big hurdle for her to get over at this point - and again, that comes down to my standards for what is a reasonable level of care. ​​​​​​​​​​*
*


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

californiagirl said:


> she is outside for the majority of the day.


I'm sorry - this just makes me want to scream. It's time to reflect on why you got a puppy in the first place. She is a BABY. You can't leave a pup so young outdoors all day. If you continue, she may not be there when you get home I'm sorry to say. (I knew someone who's puppy was stolen from their backyard when they left it unsupervised.)

Goldens can be quite naughty until they've matured and been trained properly. Being left outdoors unsupervised all day will most likely result in her eating something she shouldn't and I fear the worst will come to her.

Please consider returning her to the breeder or rehoming her if you don't have the time to spend with her and can't care for her properly. It's clear your neighbor has her best interests at heart.


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## Susan6953 (Jun 9, 2008)

I think people who have never used crates think it is mean to have a dog in a crate for long periods of time but really when I have Jamie at work (he now stays in my office with me) all he does while I'm working is sleep anyway. Luckily I am able to take him to the dog park at lunch so he gets his exercize. 

I don't think a puppy should be crated all day at this young age but as others have mentioned if someone can play with him at noon I think that would be better than leaving him outside.

Luckily the climate here is mild and there are only a few days in summer and winter where it would be too hot or cold in the car but since I have my own business I am able to have him in the office. The funny thing is, on rare occasions he will bark wanting to go out and he pays no attention to me tellling him to be quiet but if my office manager goes in and tells him to be quiet he stops barking immediately.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I agree, I do not think it is intentional neglect, just people were brought up different ways, and need to be educated. I may feel a little different if this was an adult dog, depending on the backyard set up, weather conditions, etc, although I would not do it myself.

This is a very young puppy that is just learning everything. She needs to be inside and protected.

This board is here to educate people, if we scare them off, we are not doing any good to the dogs involved.

Years ago I almost called animal control on my boyfriend's mother. She was a vet tech, and kept her dogs in crates at night and would yell at her big dog if he drank his water too fast. I thought that was cruel, I have now been educated - 25 years later.

CaliforniaGirl please do not be scared off. These posts are with good intentions. There are some very good ideas here. I would also fully recommend going to puppy classes and reading some books on golden care. It will only enhance the relationship you have with your dog. 

In addition, it is healthier to feed your puppy at least three times a day when they are that young.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Just FYI, I don't think the OP has logged on since 224 AM or something like that last night. Maybe she's at work? Boy will she have alot of reading ahead of her.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Anyone else find it odd that animal control came and TOOK the dog after one phone call from a concerned neighbor? 

Sounds like she's trying to be a good owner. Some of us prefer crating indoors and some can't imagine ever doing that. I strongly believe that working people can successfully raise puppies - even when that means the pup is left alone most of the day -- so long as the person is willing to devote the majority of their "at home" time to working with/playing with/socializing the pup.

I personally wouldn't leave a pup alone all day in the yard. But I don't believe that doing so automatically consititues neglect. With the right set up, and maybe some organized visitors, it could maybe be do-able.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I don't know about Animal Control in that area but our Animal Control would only take a dog if there was a reason.

Maybe the water had been drunk or ran dry or they were actually concerned for a three month old puppy being outside alone all day too (this would surprise me actually)

I agree that a puppy that young needs supervision, fed three times a day and potty/play breaks. I hope she will hopefully see that everyone here is posting out of concern for her dog.


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## molly babe (Dec 27, 2009)

Why is it that i have read this and i feel people are having a go at her.Yes what she done was wrong maybe she realies that now but if i were the neighbour i would have talked to her first and if i didnt get some sort of good response from it then i would have reported it to the authoirtes, (and i would have told her i would )taking a little time out and trying to resolve the situation would in my books be better for everyone most importantly the dog.:no: If the neighbours could hear the dog and are at home maybe a little support ie offering help (going and keeping the dog company for ten mins) instead of running off and telling tales.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

Well, I'm in South Florida and my guess is that if something like that happened here, AC in South Florida would be on the doorstep, say "you can either give us the pup, or we'll file animal abuse charges against you," and they would not leave until a decision was made on the spot--and they would show up with representatives from the ASPCA, HSUS, the local Humane Society, and the local police. Surrounded with so many badges, the OP would turn over the pup, and the pup would have a home in less than a week--in South Florida, puppies are "imported" from the Bahamas for the shelters--they are called "potcakes" (mixed breeds) and they are brought in because there is a demand from people to adopt puppies. Facts are facts and even though people want to do a noble thing, and get a dog from a shelter, most prefer a young healthy dog. When the last batch of "potcakes" arrived, the local Humane Society had lines circling the block--this is not the case with your run of the mill adult or senior dogs. A golden retriever pup in a possible abuse situation--oh yeah, here in South Florida, it would be Rescue 9-1-1. I don't know how it would be in California, that's why in my reply to the OP, I told her to take this very seriously.


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

molly babe said:


> Why is it that i have read this and i feel people are having a go at her.Yes what she done was wrong maybe she realies that now but if i were the neighbour i would have talked to her first and if i didnt get some sort of good response from it then i would have reported it to the authoirtes, (and i would have told her i would )taking a little time out and trying to resolve the situation would in my books be better for everyone most importantly the dog.:no: If the neighbours could hear the dog and are at home maybe a little support ie offering help (going and keeping the dog company for ten mins) instead of running off and telling tales.


It shouldn't be the neighbor's job to take care of her puppy. Hearing a dog crying outside is VERY upsetting, and they were doing what they thought was right. As stated in MANY of the posts in here, people would do the same thing by calling. I know I would.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Anyone else find it odd that animal control came and TOOK the dog after one phone call from a concerned neighbor?
> 
> Sounds like she's trying to be a good owner. Some of us prefer crating indoors and some can't imagine ever doing that. I strongly believe that working people can successfully raise puppies - even when that means the pup is left alone most of the day -- so long as the person is willing to devote the majority of their "at home" time to working with/playing with/socializing the pup.
> 
> I personally wouldn't leave a pup alone all day in the yard. But I don't believe that doing so automatically consititues neglect. With the right set up, and maybe some organized visitors, it could maybe be do-able.


I was actually not sure if the pup was taken by AC - the OP wrote that Daisy was in the back yard (come to find out), so perhaps the landlord was mistaken and AC said they might take the pup?

And yes, I totally agree that as long as a pup is a priority when the owner(s) are not working, people who need to work can have happy, well trained and well-socialized dogs.

I am one of those people who just feel really bad for any one of my dogs who needs to stay inside while I am at work (even when it is due to foul weather or high winds or injury etc)- I prefer them to be outside where they have water, shelter and the freedom to run and play as the mood strikes them. But I do have a good set-up for them.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

I'm sorry but I have to stick my neck out here and say I don't think it remotely suitable to leave a puppy of that age in a crate for 9 1/2 hours of any day! If the OP has no other person to come in and let the pup out, are you all saying this is acceptable? So the pup is let out to relieve itself, have meals etc, then spends another 9 - 10 hours shut in the crate at night time? Yes, my dogs probably sleep a good deal of the time they are left alone, but they have the whole ground floor to wander around. I'm not against crating for short periods, I will crate train any future pups I raise, but I will never regularly leave it crated for the long hours suggested here.

I do not believe it is kind or humane to leave it outside unattended for 9 1/2 hours a day either. As others have said, puppies need to be socialised, trained, and most of all need companionship. Pups under 6 months of age need 3 meals a day also.

My mind is boggling with this story... I don't really know where to start, but I will try to remember the difference in cultures. Here in the UK, this kind of scenario would almost definitely result in a call to the RSPCA, as it would be considered cruel.

I do acknowledge that the OP has asked for help and advice, and I think the idea of engaging the help of friends/family or a professional dog sitting service an excellent one.

I have to say, the ONLY reason I didn't keep one of Izzie's pup's myself earlier this year (the pick pup Lexi lives with my daughter) is that I work 2 full days a week. Even then my son comes home at 3.30pm and my other son is at home for part of the day. My 2 adult dogs are used to the routine and are walked before I leave and as soon as I return. 

I'm sorry but nobody can convince me that any puppy has a good life being shut in/out for hours every day! I will not raise another puppy until I am able to devote the time to spend with it.

I mean no offence to anyone with my feelings on this subject, as I realise many people work full-time hours and leave dogs at home. I also waited for YEARS before I got my first Golden because the time wasn't right.

Good luck to the OP, I'm sorry your having a hard time, but was leaving your baby puppy at home all day whilst you were at work always part of the plan?


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

molly babe said:


> Why is it that i have read this and i feel people are having a go at her.Yes what she done was wrong maybe she realies that now but if i were the neighbour i would have talked to her first and if i didnt get some sort of good response from it then i would have reported it to the authoirtes, (and i would have told her i would )taking a little time out and trying to resolve the situation would in my books be better for everyone most importantly the dog.:no: If the neighbours could hear the dog and are at home maybe a little support ie offering help (going and keeping the dog company for ten mins) instead of running off and telling tales.


 
Her neighbor is a stranger and owes her nothing. It's good that this happened though because the dog wasn't taken and now hopefully the OP can learn much better and safer ways of taking care of her puppy. I think Molly, that you are way off here.


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## molly babe (Dec 27, 2009)

momtoMax said:


> Her neighbor is a stranger and owes her nothing. It's good that this happened though because the dog wasn't taken and now hopefully the OP can learn much better and safer ways of taking care of her puppy. I think Molly, that you are way off here.


 I understand what you are all saying and like i said i would tell too but why cant people talk first if they are so concerned why cant they offer there support nobody owns anyone anything but wouldn't the world be a nicer place if we as humans offered out a hand of friendship and support instead of being the first to knock em down ?


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## molly babe (Dec 27, 2009)

Mssjnnfer said:


> It shouldn't be the neighbor's job to take care of her puppy. Hearing a dog crying outside is VERY upsetting, and they were doing what they thought was right. As stated in MANY of the posts in here, people would do the same thing by calling. I know I would.


 AND I WOULD if after talking there was no improvement. The dogs welfare is the most important and trying to educate is the first port of call.


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

tanyac said:


> I do acknowledge that the OP has asked for help and advice, and I think the idea of engaging the help of friends/family or a professional dog sitting service an excellent one.


OP asked for advice on how to handle her nosy neighbor, not how to provide better care for her puppy. I think responses would have been much different had she asked the latter.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

molly babe said:


> I understand what you are all saying and like i said i would tell too but why cant people talk first if they are so concerned why cant they offer there support nobody owns anyone anything but wouldn't the world be a nicer place if we as humans offered out a hand of friendship and support instead of being the first to knock em down ?


 
The truth is, there is no way on Gods green earth where it is okay to leave a 3 month pup outside for 9 hours straight. She was wrong. The person calling - it would have been nice for them to talk to her first, but they had a legitimate reason to call AC. Those are the facts and they aren't pretty. However, stating those facts is not an attack, it is what it is. The facts must be stated and then advice given. Some people have been more passionate about it but everyone agrees that she is wrong to do this as a solution to being a work. It's not just a safety concern but also damaging this puppy's psyche through lack of attention, socialization, and intelligence. 

The ugly truth is if she does not want to learn and find new ways of puppy rearing, then she needs to rehome this puppy for it's own sake. If she loves her dog and puts in the research, the time, and the money into it, then there is no reason she can't make this work.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

momtoMax said:


> The truth is, there is no way on Gods green earth where it is okay to leave a 3 month pup outside for 9 hours straight. She was wrong. The person calling - it would have been nice for them to talk to her first, but they had a legitimate reason to call AC. Those are the facts and they aren't pretty. However, stating those facts is not an attack, it is what it is. The facts must be stated and then advice given. Some people have been more passionate about it but everyone agrees that she is wrong to do this as a solution to being a work. It's not just a safety concern but also damaging this puppy's psyche through lack of attention, socialization, and intelligence.
> 
> The ugly truth is if she does not want to learn and find new ways of puppy rearing, then she needs to rehome this puppy for it's own sake. If she loves her dog and puts in the research, the time, and the money into it, then there is no reason she can't make this work.


What about leaving a puppy alone INSIDE for 9 hours a day? So long as an adequate potty area exists, etc.? When I raised my first pup, she spent the work day home alone, gated in my small kitchen. I came home at lunch as often as I could, but I couldn't do it everyday. We was well exercised before I left for work and again when I got home. She's well-trained, well-socialized and a joy to live with. I don't think for a second that she had an awful puppyhood b/c she was essentially a "latch-key dog" during that phase of her life.

It was a lot of hard work and required that I turn down social opportunities for me in favor of going straight home to tend to the pup, and weekends were devoted to training classes and other socialization outings. But it worked for me, and it can work for others. I strongly believe that dedicated working folks can successfully raise puppies. Is it IDEAL for a pup to be home alone... probably not. But if you truly can't find an alternative, I don't think it's the worst thing that can happen. 

We've not seen her set up, so we can't really say if it's safe or not. Choosing to leave your dog (of any age) outside all day is a personal choice. I can only say it wouldn't be the choice for me - for a variety of reasons. I can't say othes are "wrong" for making that choice b/c I don't live in their world, nor do I know their situation/background, etc.

IMO, you're very harsh in how you share your opinion. It may be more likely to turn the OP off than try and convince her to experiment with other options.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sunrise said:


> I was actually not sure if the pup was taken by AC - the OP wrote that Daisy was in the back yard (come to find out), so perhaps the landlord was mistaken and AC said they might take the pup?
> 
> And yes, I totally agree that as long as a pup is a priority when the owner(s) are not working, people who need to work can have happy, well trained and well-socialized dogs.
> 
> I am one of those people who just feel really bad for any one of my dogs who needs to stay inside while I am at work (even when it is due to foul weather or high winds or injury etc)- I prefer them to be outside where they have water, shelter and the freedom to run and play as the mood strikes them. But I do have a good set-up for them.


Phew, I am glad you and Stephanie posted, cuz I was beginning to think I needed to send all my dogs to a rescue as DH and I have to work all day (mostly to support the dogs) and I was feeling like an unfit owner from the responses posted here. Granted, none of my dogs are puppies and all have an insulated garage converted into an indoor/outdoor kennel for them while we are away. I wish I could be wealthy enough not to have to work so I could stay home all day with the dogs, but unfortunatly that is not the case and until it is, I hope my dogs will still love me even though I have to work. I also have raised all my dogs from puppies and still had a 9 hour job and 30 minute one way commute. Of course, DH's mom lives right around the corner and she would come and take them for walks everyday.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

It would be blasphemy to say anything against the great FQ now wouldn't it? You are a great dog trainer and have a lot of information and knowledge right now, don't get me wrong. Would you wholeheartedly tell other people to do it that way? I would personally never get a puppy under those circumstances. Especially if no one let the puppy out during that time and you worked 5 days a week. Totally not for me. That would be selfish of me, IMO, to put a puppy through that - I'd rather do it when it's the best possible time for the best possible experience for us both. I'm sorry but I think your puppy's puppyhood for sure wasn't near the quality say, Max's was he had all day with us rather than a few hours of person, 18 of not. Sure, people do the latchkey puppy all the time and do not bother to devote every free moment to their dog. That's not me and I wouldn't clap my hands for anyone who does it, even if they, like you, do all the extras to make up for it as much as you can. So if you're looking for an award, sorry to disappoint. Great that she grew up happy and well socialized - that says a lot about the extras you did but would you do it again? Why only one dog that's latch key? Why not them all? And if you don't like my tone, thanks for letting me know. In one ear out the other I'm afraid. My point is, like many others here - is that it's not right to leave a 3 month old puppy outside unsupervised for that long. You can go on the record then as saying it's okay with you? Hmm. Interesting.



FlyingQuizini said:


> What about leaving a puppy alone INSIDE for 9 hours a day? So long as an adequate potty area exists, etc.? When I raised my first pup, she spent the work day home alone, gated in my small kitchen. I came home at lunch as often as I could, but I couldn't do it everyday. We was well exercised before I left for work and again when I got home. She's well-trained, well-socialized and a joy to live with. I don't think for a second that she had an awful puppyhood b/c she was essentially a "latch-key dog" during that phase of her life.
> 
> It was a lot of hard work and required that I turn down social opportunities for me in favor of going straight home to tend to the pup, and weekends were devoted to training classes and other socialization outings. But it worked for me, and it can work for others. I strongly believe that dedicated working folks can successfully raise puppies. Is it IDEAL for a pup to be home alone... probably not. But if you truly can't find an alternative, I don't think it's the worst thing that can happen.
> 
> ...


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

As a side note, if you don't like my opinion, ignore it. I am not going to get into what some of you call "debate" which I call a huge waste of time and energy I don't really have to spare.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

Owning (and I hate that word) a dog is not a right, it is a privilege . Dogs should not be forced to fit into theirs owner's lifestyle. An owner should be able to accommodate the needs of their dog(s) or they shouldn't have them. Everyone here who has posted a reply, seems to have come up with some way to make it work. While there are many different opinions on how this should be handled, no one but the OP has thought it was OK to leave a 3 month old puppy outside alone with no food for 9 1/2 hours.


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## molly babe (Dec 27, 2009)

momtoMax said:


> The truth is, there is no way on Gods green earth where it is okay to leave a 3 month pup outside for 9 hours straight. She was wrong. The person calling - it would have been nice for them to talk to her first, but they had a legitimate reason to call AC. Those are the facts and they aren't pretty. However, stating those facts is not an attack, it is what it is. The facts must be stated and then advice given. Some people have been more passionate about it but everyone agrees that she is wrong to do this as a solution to being a work. It's not just a safety concern but also damaging this puppy's psyche through lack of attention, socialization, and intelligence.
> 
> The ugly truth is if she does not want to learn and find new ways of puppy rearing, then she needs to rehome this puppy for it's own sake. If she loves her dog and puts in the research, the time, and the money into it, then there is no reason she can't make this work.


 On that i fully agree but you wouldn't put a dog down and then ask questions would you?I agree the dog is anyone first's prioterly and thanks for the discussion


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## i12flytoday (Dec 31, 2009)

*Not IDEAL, but workable...*

It isn't an IDEAL situation to be working with a new puppy, but it is workable. Personally, this is why I have decided to wait to get a puppy until just before I am off for Summer break. Even when I will be working again in the fall, the pup will be house-trained (hopefully) and someone will be home for the most part of the day while I'm gone.

The reality is that many people work while having goldens with excellent results. As long as the person spends as much time as possible with the dogs letting them know that they are loved it will be ok. It's just not as good when they are pups. 

My last golden was home alone for about 9 hours per day, but she had the run of the house and had her own door to go out to the fenced yard when she wanted. She was always happy to see me when I came home, but never seemed neglected at all.

I'm still on edge about getting a door for the new pup when we get one but if I do it will be an electronic one that reads the dogs collar. But no, I would never leave a pup or a dog penned up in a yard all day. In fact, my last golden had taken over the guest room at my house, bed and all, while I was away. But that is just because I liked her more than most of the guests I had. :


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

So are you saying, we should all get rid of our dogs, because we, unlike you have to work? Or would you rather us just put them all to sleep, as I don't think there are enough rescue groups available to take all of the neglected Goldens in working homes. Max is so lucky to have you, and I applaud you for being able to stay home with him, but until I win the lottery, my poor dogs will have to suffer. How did you make your money, investments? Lottery?


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I think the concern here was for the *three month old puppy being unsafe in the yard,* crying with possibly no food or water for up to 9 hours or so. It sounds like the pup was not taken but a message was left by AC. 

We really don't know what the neighbors were concerned about: the puppy being without food/water, crying, or just too young and might be hurt, poisoned, or stolen.

Thirty five years ago our first golden was outside much of the time. She was an adult dog, had a warm safe place to get in from the elements and it was a totally different time in this country. Needless to say, I was young and stupid. I got smart, brought the dog in and four goldens later have never had one of my dogs outside in our fenced in yard for more than a few minutes without me.
Most of us can probably say we have learned alot over the years about caring for our dogs.

Hopefully, the OP will rethink what she is choosing because of our suggestions. But I really don't think anyone wants to attack other GRF members here. I hope not.

Everyone would love ideal conditions for their golden. But yes, people need to work and have to decide what is best for themselves and their dog.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

momtoMax said:


> It would be blasphemy to say anything against the great FQ now wouldn't it? You are a great dog trainer and have a lot of information and knowledge right now, don't get me wrong. Would you wholeheartedly tell other people to do it that way? I would personally never get a puppy under those circumstances. Especially if no one let the puppy out during that time and you worked 5 days a week. Totally not for me. That would be selfish of me, IMO, to put a puppy through that - I'd rather do it when it's the best possible time for the best possible experience for us both. I'm sorry but I think your puppy's puppyhood for sure wasn't near the quality say, Max's was he had all day with us rather than a few hours of person, 18 of not. Sure, people do the latchkey puppy all the time and do not bother to devote every free moment to their dog. That's not me and I wouldn't clap my hands for anyone who does it, even if they, like you, do all the extras to make up for it as much as you can. So if you're looking for an award, sorry to disappoint. Great that she grew up happy and well socialized - that says a lot about the extras you did but would you do it again? Why only one dog that's latch key? Why not them all? And if you don't like my tone, thanks for letting me know. In one ear out the other I'm afraid. My point is, like many others here - is that it's not right to leave a 3 month old puppy outside unsupervised for that long. You can go on the record then as saying it's okay with you? Hmm. Interesting.


I'm not sure why you have to be so nasty in your response? Some people, me included, work full time. When I brought Jasmine home, I crated her during the day (she was 6 weeks old when we got her, before we knew anything about how young that really is) and at night. If Jay was working that day, I drove home on my lunch and let her out to potty. What you are apparently missing is that they are only young puppies for a short period of their lives. They'll survive those months when they need to be crated and still end up being adored members of our family. 

Now, I agree that being outside all day long as a puppy is not a good or safe thing. Maybe or maybe not the OP is willing to learn from this thread, but even if she isn't, there are many others who are reading it and learning. Hopefully in a positive way and not negatively because of the tone of some of the posts.


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## molly babe (Dec 27, 2009)

Mssjnnfer said:


> It shouldn't be the neighbor's job to take care of her puppy. Hearing a dog crying outside is VERY upsetting, and they were doing what they thought was right. As stated in MANY of the posts in here, people would do the same thing by calling. I know I would.


  Sorry but as a animal lover of all creatures and if i were their neighbour i would see if i could help with the situation first, who is to say the neighbours found it very UPSETTING or was it a case of VERY ANNOYING.Dont get me wrong if i got told to mind my own bussiness or things didn't improve then i would then tell them what i would do (report them ) THEN DO IT.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> But it worked for me, and it can work for others. I strongly believe that dedicated working folks can successfully raise puppies. Is it IDEAL for a pup to be home alone... probably not. But if you truly can't find an alternative, I don't think it's the worst thing that can happen.


I've been following this thread. I live alone with my Ziggy. I just wanna say that it worked for me too and my happy, well-adjusted, well-behaved boy. I would never leave him outside though. I work 3-12 hour night shifts a week with a 30 minute commute each way. That's 13-14 hours of leaving him alone at night. Gasp! 

Up until about 10 months old he stayed in his "house" which was a 4x4x6 kennel inside my living room. I put a plastic covered piece of plywood down on the floor and set the kennel on top of it just in case he had a accident. It had a smaller crate within it for sleeping and an area for his food, water and puppy safe toys. Yep, and he had lots of room to stretch out and I always left the tv or radio on for him. He had maybe 3-4 "accidents" in his "house." Never in the crate and always away from his food. He loved that place. When he knew I was leaving even to go to the grocery he'd head straight in there without a single problem. When I'd get home from work in the morning it was a reunion like no other every single time. What a happy puppy he was. Most times he was more interested in greeting me than he was to go out to pee....he's still this way.

He's had free reign of the house for about 7 months now. I was so afraid at first that I would come home to horrendous messes everywhere. He's had exactly ONE accident inside the house while I was at work and he was nice enough to do it on a rug that I could clean. This actually happened just last week. I think he had an upset tummy. My thing is that I don't get upset about the accident. I felt really bad and I think he did too! But we were over it immediately and he happily "helped" me get the rug out of the house to clean up.

I have never come home to chewed up furniture, walls or doors. I own everything and he knows what he can have (his toys) and what he cannot have (everything else). When he was younger and stayed in his house occassionaly one of my kids would come over in the late evening to say hi to him, let him out and spend a little time with him, but they don't do that anymore.

I think if you have a plan, if you continuously build a relationship with your puppy, you meet the dog's needs making sure s/he is safe, and you love your dog just about any situation can work. It's a HUGE commitment. But I would never leave a puppy or a grown dog outside alone. Just too many things could go terribly wrong.

Know where I learned how to make sure my boy was safe, happy and trained? At GRF. I think this thread is a bit overboard.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

tanyac said:


> I'm sorry but I have to stick my neck out here and say I don't think it remotely suitable to leave a puppy of that age in a crate for 9 1/2 hours of any day! If the OP has no other person to come in and let the pup out, are you all saying this is acceptable? So the pup is let out to relieve itself, have meals etc, then spends another 9 - 10 hours shut in the crate at night time? Yes, my dogs probably sleep a good deal of the time they are left alone, but they have the whole ground floor to wander around. I'm not against crating for short periods, I will crate train any future pups I raise, but I will never regularly leave it crated for the long hours suggested here.
> 
> I do not believe it is kind or humane to leave it outside unattended for 9 1/2 hours a day either. As others have said, puppies need to be socialised, trained, and most of all need companionship. Pups under 6 months of age need 3 meals a day also.
> 
> ...


ABSOLUTELY agree with every word. In some ways I consider the cage alternative as worse than the garden...the poor thing would have to sit in it's own feces and urine all day. I could never, in a million years, go off for the full working day with a pup left in a crate...I just don't get it, I do not understand how any dog lover could leave a puppy in a crate all day.


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## tessalover (Nov 29, 2009)

OK I disagree with what this girl has done, but you guys are being really REALLY nasty to her. Please stop. I don't know if you have noticed, but she hasn't responded to this since she actully wrote this. You guys probley all scared her away. Be nice!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

momtoMax said:


> It would be blasphemy to say anything against the great FQ now wouldn't it? You are a great dog trainer and have a lot of information and knowledge right now, don't get me wrong. Would you wholeheartedly tell other people to do it that way? I would personally never get a puppy under those circumstances. Especially if no one let the puppy out during that time and you worked 5 days a week. Totally not for me. That would be selfish of me, IMO, to put a puppy through that - I'd rather do it when it's the best possible time for the best possible experience for us both. I'm sorry but I think your puppy's puppyhood for sure wasn't near the quality say, Max's was he had all day with us rather than a few hours of person, 18 of not. Sure, people do the latchkey puppy all the time and do not bother to devote every free moment to their dog. That's not me and I wouldn't clap my hands for anyone who does it, even if they, like you, do all the extras to make up for it as much as you can. So if you're looking for an award, sorry to disappoint. Great that she grew up happy and well socialized - that says a lot about the extras you did but would you do it again? Why only one dog that's latch key? Why not them all? And if you don't like my tone, thanks for letting me know. In one ear out the other I'm afraid. My point is, like many others here - is that it's not right to leave a 3 month old puppy outside unsupervised for that long. You can go on the record then as saying it's okay with you? Hmm. Interesting.


No award needed, thanks. My happy, well-adjusted dogs are reward enough. Would I raise another puppy while working a full-time job? Yeah. It's hard, but it *can* be done well. That's the only point I was trying to make -- that, rather than beat her up and suggest her dog should be re-homed, why not kindly encourage alternate arrangements. When other's find themselves in that situation, I think it's important to help them explore alternatives, not just blanketly declare that they "are wrong." Especially when we don't know all the deatils. 

As for the puppy crying outside... my guess is that, at 12 weeks, it would be doing a fair amount of crying inside, too. The pup is having to learn how to be alone. Hopefully wherever the pup is outdoors is puppy-proof, safe, and provides adequate shelter, etc. Adding a daily visitor would be great if she can swing it. And if the pup's basic safety/emotional, etc. needs aren't being met, I'd feel diffently. But I haven't seen the set up; I don't know. Doesn't seem fair to assume the worst.

Hope it works out for them.


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## vixen (Jul 26, 2008)

Just to add, from someone that use to live next door to a dog that darked all day and all night, one day he was left from 8am -11pm the police was even called once (not by me) I don't understand why people get a dog and then leave it all day, and to leave a *3 month old puppy* is unforgivable in this house. Your just asking for all sorts of behaviour problems and a very unhappy dog.

last think I have to say on this to the OP

ever thought about getting a cat


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

It was easy for me with Daisy, I was off work for a year almost. And I'm fortunate now where I live there's a dog daycare just 5 minutes down the road and close to my work. They do training there too, and grooming. When it's time for me to get another puppy (after Daisy), I will definitely be using the daycare, every work day. Pricey, but worth it.

Are there any dog daycares in Santa Barbara that the OP can use? Santa Barbara seems like a hip happening place, I can't imagine that wouldn't be an option. 

I'm concerned about a puppy left loose outdoors for so long. Like many have said, so much can happen. My first thought was that the puppy has plenty of time to learn how to dig and may eventually dig out from boredom or loneliness.

Puppies do need stimulation, people contact and supervision. If I had to crate for 1/2 the day, I wouldn't get another puppy, I just couldn't do it. I have these horror stories in the back of my mind where people's puppies have gotten their teeth caught on the bars ... what if no one was home to help?

Dog daycare, a dog nanny ... these are good options for working parents.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

There's also the school of thought that by having puppies alone during a period of time throughout the day, you decrease your odds of having a dog experience separation anxiety. The dog learns to adjust to your absence, and knows you will return. I had a breeder make that comment to me when I told her that another breeder had turned down my application for a golden, because on 3 out of the 5 days of the week, the pup would be in a crate 8 hours a day (although my husband would be able to come home during lunch time and play with the dog for about 30 minutes and walk it during those 3 days). This breeder said we were not suitable. The other breeder I spoke to said that the alternative thinking is that owners who are not with their goldens 24/7 actually have pets that become well-adjusted, less anxious dogs.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

I am not being nasty - I am just saying that I don't think that it's a good situation for someone to bring a pup into. I'm getting more heated, sure, but not nasty. I know FQ is amazing at what she does and I highly doubt people would dare to disagree with her but on this point I do. A short, but REALLY important part of their lives. Did you know with children, they are pretty much shaped by 3 to 4 years old - their personalities, their limits, etc. etc. Puppyhood is like that for dogs right? It goes by fast and it's super important to train, love, socialize, teach them when they are little. If you do not, it's much much harder to do as a grown up. 

I do work and if I had a full time job I would not have gotten a puppy as we are not home enough. I think that people who have to leave a tiny puppy alone that long and add sleeping time to that aren't really in a position to really take care of that puppy. How many times have I seen people go on and on about gee, you haven't thought this through. A dog may not be right for you and here ppl are saying the opposite. I feel how I feel and I'm not afraid to say it. Is it word of God? No, but that's how Jenn C's it.

QUOTE=fostermom;1024119]I'm not sure why you have to be so nasty in your response? Some people, me included, work full time. When I brought Jasmine home, I crated her during the day (she was 6 weeks old when we got her, before we knew anything about how young that really is) and at night. If Jay was working that day, I drove home on my lunch and let her out to potty. What you are apparently missing is that they are only young puppies for a short period of their lives. They'll survive those months when they need to be crated and still end up being adored members of our family. 

Now, I agree that being outside all day long as a puppy is not a good or safe thing. Maybe or maybe not the OP is willing to learn from this thread, but even if she isn't, there are many others who are reading it and learning. Hopefully in a positive way and not negatively because of the tone of some of the posts.[/QUOTE]


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

That's interesting, Rapp. I've often thought of that. Do you think puppies might go through a natural phase of separation anxiety? I think they might, regardless of their circumstances. The reason I say that is because I was with Daisy 24/7 for the first year. She did have a brief phase of separation anxiety around 6-7 months but it didn't last very long. 

She was in dog daycare a lot when I first went back to work but then she got the viral papilloma and couldn't go. That was the first time in her life she had to stay home alone -- I was very worried! She was about 1-1/2 years then, but she did great. No issues at all. 

So in my case, I did have a dog I was with 24/7 for the first year and she's turned out to be extremely well-adjusted. I couldn't wish for a better, easier dog.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

I never suggested the dog be rehomed UNLESS this situation continues. There are safer things she can do for her dog. Like crate training, having someone come likely 2x a day until puppy gets older to let her out and eating. Leaving a puppy outside unsupervised apparently crying enough to get the notice of the neighbors with no shelter or food is NOT good for the puppy and that needs to change. If you disagree and think it is being done well, then will just have to disagree. I still would never do it myself and I think that ppl should really only get puppies when they have the time and effort to devote to them and if it means that an 8 week old puppy is left inside with no interaction or breaks outside, then there's no excuse for that. My friend lets my boy out every day and spends time with him to give him a break. If someone like me with as little extra to spare as I have can make arrangements and pay for that kind of service, others should be able to at least do that.



FlyingQuizini said:


> No award needed, thanks. My happy, well-adjusted dogs are reward enough. Would I raise another puppy while working a full-time job? Yeah. It's hard, but it *can* be done well. That's the only point I was trying to make -- that, rather than beat her up and suggest her dog should be re-homed, why not kindly encourage alternate arrangements. When other's find themselves in that situation, I think it's important to help them explore alternatives, not just blanketly declare that they "are wrong." Especially when we don't know all the deatils.
> 
> As for the puppy crying outside... my guess is that, at 12 weeks, it would be doing a fair amount of crying inside, too. The pup is having to learn how to be alone. Hopefully wherever the pup is outdoors is puppy-proof, safe, and provides adequate shelter, etc. Adding a daily visitor would be great if she can swing it. And if the pup's basic safety/emotional, etc. needs aren't being met, I'd feel diffently. But I haven't seen the set up; I don't know. Doesn't seem fair to assume the worst.
> 
> Hope it works out for them.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Debles said:


> I think the concern here was for the *three month old puppy being unsafe in the yard,* crying with possibly no food or water for up to 9 hours or so. It sounds like the pup was not taken but a message was left by AC.
> 
> We really don't know what the neighbors were concerned about: the puppy being without food/water, crying, or just too young and might be hurt, poisoned, or stolen.
> 
> ...


I agree with Debles here. The concern is the *three month old puppy being unsafe in the yard,* crying with possibly no food or water for up to 9 hours or so. 

Does the set-up described by CaliforniaGirl show reasonable care? 

Even after CaliforniaGirl learned of the contact with Animal Control concerning her puppy, she did not ask for help. Instead she wanted to vent. She stated she went to a neighbor and requested that they call her first next time. 

We don't know what has happened since CaliforniaGirl posted her vent. She may have made a new plan for Daisy's care. However, I am not optimistic. I have a picture in my mind of someone that is starting her life, trying to make a living, read the book Marley & Me, and decided to get a Golden. We all know of friends - our own children for gosh sakes - who get these ideas that are just not well thought out. So maybe I am wrong - but that is the only way I can get beyond the poor decision in this case. And that is why my gut says - forget about personal choice, rights, or need to work. I don't want to hear about that. Someone take care of the puppy first - re-homing is the best solution. 

Side note: We all work - whether we are caring for children, running a household, or we have outside employment. Many of us work outside the home, manage our homes, take care of children, and have one or more dogs - and would never leave a 3 month old puppy alone for 9 hours. Again, I don't want to embarrass or hurt CaliforniaGirl - this is a case of poor decision making and inexperience - we all live and learn . . . .


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I agree with everything Steph (FlyingQuizini) has posted. 

I personally would not leave mine outside either when I am not home, but, I do not think it is neglect or wrong to do so. (Though I do think that 3 months is a bit young for that, personally). As far as everyone talking about a puppy being in a crate or confined for certain hours--don't forget that they do sleep a lot as well! In fact, my 9 month old when _decently exercised_ is content to lounge around the house and sleep all day!


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

I want to clarify. I didn't leave my Ziggy in a crate. When I first brought him home I was off for a couple of weeks and he slept in a crate in my room. I literally had a house for him (a big kennel that had a doorless crate inside it), inside my home. He now has a large crate that has a big ol down comforter in it that he spends time in while I'm at home. The door is removed. It's "his" place.

I tried the doggy daycare thing but because I work at night it didn't work for me. In the very best case (nicest kennel) he would just be locked up in an unfamiliar place with a vet tech from the neighboring ER vet looking in on him twice throughout the night - not talking to him or taking him out or playing with him, just making sure he was alright. Granted, he had a flat screen tv, but really the room (they called them cottages  ) was no larger that my set-up in our own home.

With some creative thinking, there are alternatives.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> I agree with everything Steph (FlyingQuizini) has posted.
> 
> I personally would not leave mine outside either when I am not home, but, I do not think it is neglect or wrong to do so. (Though I do think that 3 months is a bit young for that, personally). As far as everyone talking about a puppy being in a crate or confined for certain hours--don't forget that they do sleep a lot as well! In fact, my 9 month old when _decently exercised_ is content to lounge around the house and sleep all day!


 
with no breaks for 9 hours? That's okay? I need to stop you there. Yes, crate is much better alternative but not locked in there for 9 hours at a time EDIT without breaks.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

momtoMax said:


> with no breaks for 9 hours? That's okay? I need to stop you there. Yes, crate is much better alternative but not locked in there for 9 hours at a time EDIT without breaks.


Erf, depends on the dog/age and regularity of that occuring and what is done with the rest of the time. The setup is important too....

EDIT: But yeah, for a young puppy or even dog to be crated that long _during the day with no potty break_ I think is a bit much if done regularly--but if not crated? Eh, not necessarily.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

GRZ said:


> I want to clarify. I didn't leave my Ziggy in a crate. When I first brought him home I was off for a couple of weeks and he slept in a crate in my room. I literally had a house for him (a big kennel that had a doorless crate inside it), inside my home. He now has a large crate that has a big ol down comforter in it that he spends time in while I'm at home. It's "his" place.
> 
> I tried the doggy daycare thing but because I work at night it didn't work for me. In the very best case (nicest kennel) he would just be locked up in an unfamiliar place with a vet tech from the neighboring ER vet looking in on him twice throughout the night - not talking to him or taking him out or playing with him, just making sure he was alright. Granted, he had a flat screen tv, but really the room (they called them cottages  ) was no larger that my set-up in our own home.
> 
> With some creative thinking, there are alternatives.


GRZ, your setup sounds great! And dogs naturally sleep at night anyway, don't they? Mine does, did. No dog daycares open at night, no. The few times I've had to leave Daisy at the vet overnight when no one was there were not pleasant for me at all. 

Haha, flat screen TV's ... now Ziggy is the 2nd dog here today with a flat screen TV :


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## booklady (Mar 3, 2009)

Just my two cents worth on the reporting neighbor. There seems to be an assumption that the report was out of concern for the puppy (which is the reason any of us would would make the call). There are many people in this world who are not "animal people". They choose not to have them in their lives. They do not wish them any harm, they do not believe they should be treated cruelly - they just do not connect.

Has anyone considered that the neighbor may be a day sleeper? I have one immediate neighbor who is and I work very hard to make sure my dogs do not disturb him. A crying puppy for 9 1/2 hours would absolutely drive him batty. He has no desire to be involved in an animal's life and that is his right. Unless they had shown previous interest, I would never consider asking a neighbor to assist in the raising and daily care of my puppy. I think it's an animal guardians responsibility to plan for the animal's care and to be a responsible member of the neighborhood.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> GRZ, your setup sounds great! And dogs naturally sleep at night anyway, don't they? Mine does, did. No dog daycares open at night, no. The few times I've had to leave Daisy at the vet overnight when no one was there were not pleasant for me at all.
> 
> Haha, flat screen TV's ... now Ziggy is the 2nd dog here today with a flat screen TV :


I do take him to this place every once in a while when I have to leave him all day or for a couple of days. They have a bone-shaped pool that he loves, a treadmill and dog walkers. He's getting neutered in Feb so he doesn't get to spend time with other dogs but I take him out all the time (beach, dog park, local parks, walks galore) to socialize.

I wish I had a picture of my set-up. It really did work and I would and probably will do it again. What I would do with a growing puppy while I was at work was not something I took lightly. I thought about it before the day I gleefully picked him up from the breeder. 

My dog is at my side every minute of every day that we are around each other. He knows me so well and it seems like he anticipates my every move! He is my very best friend in the world and I hope I am his very best friend. It's a bond like no other. I respect him. He respects me (most of the time  ). But I surely don't think the way I did it or do it caused or causes him any harm whatsoever. He was and is left alone for multiple hours at a time. I think what matters is how it's set up and the quality time spent with your little pal when you are together.

Maybe I just got lucky with a really fine dog. But I'd like to also believe that I had something to do with this. I got so much great advice from people like FQ and tippy and fostermom and Bender and so many others and I still do. I just read read read and I'm always learning something new.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

booklady said:


> Has anyone considered that the neighbor may be a day sleeper? I have one immediate neighbor who is and I work very hard to make sure my dogs do not disturb him. A crying puppy for 9 1/2 hours would absolutely drive him batty. He has no desire to be involved in an animal's life and that is his right. Unless they had shown previous interest, I would never consider asking a neighbor to assist in the raising and daily care of my puppy. I think it's an animal guardians responsibility to plan for the animal's care and to be a responsible member of the neighborhood.


You are such a thoughtful neighbor! When I work, I do nothing but work sleep, shower eat, repeat x3. Over the years, I have learned that there are ways for day sleepers to make their environment quiet and dark. I'm lucky, all my close neighbors have cats!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I saw an awesome TV piece last month about two families that shared a dog. At first I thought, oh no!, but when they interviewed both families and showed the routine, it really worked, at least for them.

It was a working family with school aged kids, and a retired couple who lived a few houses down. 

In the morning the kids and the dog would go to the retired couple's house until the kids got on the bus, then the dog would spend the day with the couple. When the parents came home from work, the dog would go back to the family's house.

The dog stayed with the family whenever the kids were home (weekends, etc.) I can't remember the other details, but they had a contract regarding care, and feedings, and discipline, etc. and if either family moved, the dog would stay with the kids. 

The dog had beds, toys and dishes in each home, and probably got double the walks and attention. Everybody was happy.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

I hope the OP comes back to learn from some of the best. She has to want to learn though. Maybe she just doesn't know. I think it would be tragic if the scoldings on this thread scared away a new golden puppy owner. And we have to admit, these are scoldings. I know I would hesistate to come back if it were me.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

cubbysan said:


> The dog had beds, toys and dishes in each home, and probably got double the walks and attention. Everybody was happy.


Sounds awesome for all concerned! 

A bit OT but when my son was little my ex and I switched houses instead of sending our son back and forth. It worked beautifully! We were a bit weird though. I couldn't imagine this working for just anyone.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

If the OP comes back and get's this far: you are not alone if you are willing to learn and not be defensive. Everyone here cares about your puppy.

I have had people here jump down my throat. Once because I believed my vet and continued to get regular yearly vaccinations. Back then, I thought my dogs had no reactions to their vacs and I just didn't know any different. I thought I was a good golden parent. But thanks to GRF I was able to get up to date info on vacs and now do a three year protocol on vacs with Gunner. Selka is almost 11 so no more vacs for him. I realized also that Gunner's anxiety may have been a vac reaction but I have no proof.

I have learned so much from GRF members and I thought I was a golden expert when I got here! Most everyone has been very supportive and I have made some life long friends.

So please don't take our care for your puppy personally and please be willing to listen and learn.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

I meant to stop at my first post but we are inciting and working each other up. This thread has been hijacked. It's hard when you have so many passionate people in one place.


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## WLR (May 11, 2008)

Yeah....crate w/ a noon time dogsitter visit. 
Here's Piper's setup in the tv room when she was 4 months. 
Make it kinda den like so it gives a bit more security.
She "earned" run of the house at 15 months.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> Haha, flat screen TV's ... now Ziggy is the 2nd dog here today with a flat screen TV :


Oh gosh and they loop movies like Benji and Air Bud. LOL!! It's always hard for me to leave him. Heck, even though I always bring his own bed, they even have fancy dog furniture and beds and a "babbling creek" outside the cottages. Better than most hotels I visit!

Anyway. I'm way off track now....


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

GRZ said:


> A bit OT but when my son was little my ex and I switched houses instead of sending our son back and forth. It worked beautifully! We were a bit weird though. I couldn't imagine this working for just anyone.



Are you serious? LOL


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

WLR that's amazing! She's so princess-y LOL!


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

missmarstar said:


> Are you serious? LOL


Yep, he spent way more time staying at my house because I worked nights. I never had to worry about who would watch my son while I was at work at night. Perfect arrangement. We still do things as a "family" and my son is almost 21 years old!


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

Having a young puppy when you are working is always a challenge! Everyone has to make the decisions that they feel work best for them. Hopefully these are well thought out ahead of getting the new baby. I hope that GRF has not totally scared off OP...the variety of responses here should show her that there is definitely not one right answer to her problem. I think that in most urban or suburban areas, leaving a dog (any age) outside for an extended period of time would create a "neighbour" problem. Goldens especially need their people and will NOT be happy inside or outside without them...you just hear them more outside! Good luck with Daisy...I hope you come back to the forum!


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## WLR (May 11, 2008)

GRZ said:


> WLR that's amazing! She's so princess-y LOL!


====================================================

That's my girl......


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

GRZ said:


> Yep, he spent way more time staying at my house because I worked nights. I never had to worry about who would watch my son while I was at work at night. Perfect arrangement. We still do things as a "family" and my son is almost 21 years old!



Did you have clothing and toiletry stuff at both houses?? lol I am trying to wrap my brain around just switching houses!! It sounds so simple but so complicated at the same time!! haha

I'm sure that was very good for your son though.. as little adjustment to him as possible, and to have his parents still on good terms with eachother... it's so hard when there is hostility and fighting going on between the divorced parents. I know from experience!!!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> I agree with everything Steph (FlyingQuizini) has posted.


Me too. I wouldn't personally leave a 3 month old puppy outside, but I do let my older dogs stay outside if I know I'm going to have to be gone longer than I'm comfortable leaving them in a crate. 

My puppy is six months old, he is crated all day while I am at work (along with two of my other dogs) and crated again at night. I absolutely do not trust him to be outside of his crate without supervision. I would love to be able to come home during the day and let him out, but that is not an option for me. I don't think I'm being cruel, and I'm not going to give up my dogs because I have to work. I work a second job 2 nights a week, and on those days I do have someone come over and let them out and feed them because I won't leave them crated for 12 hours. But on a normal work day they are fine.

While I personally would not leave a 3 month old alone in my backyard for many reasons, I wouldn't call it cruelty or illegal without seeing the set up.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*So I'm driving home from work today and get a call from the landlord saying that animal control came and took my dog and there was a note on the door saying "dog found crying with no food." So I rush home to get the paperwork and to get my dog. *

I still find this odd. That on a "first offense" Ani Control actually TOOK the dog?


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> *So I'm driving home from work today and get a call from the landlord saying that animal control came and took my dog and there was a note on the door saying "dog found crying with no food." So I rush home to get the paperwork and to get my dog. *
> 
> I still find this odd. That on a "first offense" Ani Control actually TOOK the dog?


 
They did not take the dog. She went to the shelter to ask what was going on.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

momtoMax said:


> They did not take the dog. She went to the shelter to ask what was going on.


Oh. OK. It wasn't clear to me in how it was worded and/or I read the next paragraph quickly. I took the line about "come to find out the dog is in the yard..." to mean that's where she keeps the dog during the day, not that she literally was IN the yard and wasn't taken.

In any case.... like I said before. I sure hope it works out for her and the pup.


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## californiagirl (Dec 11, 2009)

*internet has been down...i'm still here!*

Let me further explain so some of you can better understand...

My boyfriend works nights twice a month, so every other week he is home with her all day, everyday, until I get home and he goes to work.

I got this puppy from a lady who kept all of her dogs (including the puppies) outside ONLY in dirt. All this puppy has known has been outside, until I brought her home. 

She has a nice dog house with a Costco brand dog bed (big & fluffy & warm) outside for her. The day it rained it may have sprinkled 10 minutes. She also has a patio table with umbrella she can lay under as well. 

Part of the reason the neighbors called was because of parking drama in front of there house. They took me parking my car in front of there curb out on my dog. Very silly if you ask me. But enough about them...

Yesterday, we listend to a dog howl ALL day. We have a dog across the street that barks constantly and at anything. I have never called animal control on them. I take it as part of what living in a neighborhood that allows pets brings with it. Dogs bark Hounds howl, etc. 

Daisy gets walked daily, and the ball thrown around also. There is a golden at the end of the street that she plays with for a few minutes when we go on a walk. 

Every dog I have ever had, growing up, has stayed outside during the day and ALWAYS been fine. This is how I was raised, this is what I know. Please understand that!

I think putting my puppy in a crate for that long of a period is sad. She was outside Sunday morning, while we were home and had her toy and was playing fine by herself. We monitored her a few days before leaving her alone in the backyard for the first time. 

On the weekends, like I've said, we take her to the beach or park. When we go on vacations we make sure she can come with us. If we leave at night to run errands she comes with us if it will be awhile, or if its for a few minutes she stays inside with the kitties. 

As you all know, Goldens are smart, she is no exception. 

Hopefully this can clear some things up. 

For those of you who told me to give her up, I am sorry you feel that way. I love her and she means a lot to me. I am not just going to re-home her because of this one incident. I gave A LOT of thought to getting a puppy. 

For those of you who stuck up for me, in even the tiniest bit, THANK YOU! I'll admit I am knew to owning a puppy by myself but I think I am doing pretty well and whenever I take her on playdates with friends dogs they all say how well she behaved she is!

We start puppy school this Saturday and she also gets to go to puppy day care for free for 2 days before school is over, so we may be using those days up soon!

I would take her to work with me, however the owner just had to put his lab down and I don't think it would be appropriate to bring her to work just yet, I feel as though that would make him sad and think his dog was being replaced. I want to let him grieve first. 

...OK let the replies continue!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I am so glad to hear you plan on keeping her, are starting puppy school and plan on doing your best by her. And I am really glad some of the posts did not send you away


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## AndyLL (Nov 18, 2009)

Marty's Mom said:


> I agree with Debles here. The concern is the *three month old puppy being unsafe in the yard,* crying with possibly no food or water for up to 9 hours or so.


Uhh... 

From the OPs post we don't know if the puppy was unsafe in the yard...

We do know it was feed twice a day... 

We do know water was left...

We do know that the puppy seems to get attention when the OP is not at work...

We don't know if the puppy has shelter from the elements during the day... if not I hope the OP corrects that.

I personally don't think having to work should exclude people from dog ownership.

I personally think that outside ( with shelter, water, fenced, ect) is preferable to crated for long periods.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

CaliforniaGirl glad to see you did not leave us!!


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## californiagirl (Dec 11, 2009)

cubbysan said:


> CaliforniaGirl glad to see you did not leave us!!


 
Of course not! The internet has just been funny! It'll take a lot more than some discouraging words to drive me away!  I am here for advice.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I know people have to work, and there is no reason not to own a dog because of that, BUT I dont believe a 3 month old puppy should be left outside all day let alone, leave an adult dog out either!!!! To me that isnt safe, anyone could steal them, poison them etc... I foster pups at the age of 8 weeks, yes there in crates, BUT if my kids arent home to let them out while IM gone, then I have someone come over and take them out!


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## californiagirl (Dec 11, 2009)

another note: for whoever brought up about her poop eating habit. Turns out it was a phase. We clean the outside area every day. We fed her garlic one night with dinner and since then she has not taken another bite of her own poop! She is a VERY smart girl! 

Also- our yard is broken up into 2 areas, so we can fence her in the very back and no one can see her/ would have no idea how to get her unless they really went through our yard. She is not in street view!

Thank you all for the concern.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Did anyone happen to notice the OP lives in SANTA BARBARA? I mean, being outside all day in that climate is not like being outside all day in Alaska.
I don't understand why anyone would think a dog being confined to a cage (crate) is better than having free reign in a fenced yard in a comfortable climate, with access to water, shade, a comfortable place to sleep, and has the ability to eliminate whenever it needs to.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

As someone that's been volunteering with rescue & meeting all of the escape artists, I've yet to meet a single rescue that was content to stay in a yard all day. I've known them to clear 6ft stockade fences, dig under, chew their way out, push apart chain link...again my experience is from the rescue side and these weren't "bad" dogs, they were bored. Seeing how proficient and persistent a bored golden can be outside, I wouldn't take the risk.


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## californiagirl (Dec 11, 2009)

lgnutah said:


> Did anyone happen to notice the OP lives in SANTA BARBARA? I mean, being outside all day in that climate is not like being outside all day in Alaska.
> I don't understand why anyone would think a dog being confined to a cage (crate) is better than having free reign in a fenced yard in a comfortable climate, with access to water, shade, a comfortable place to sleep, and has the ability to eliminate whenever it needs to.


Thank You! I am sure it is hard for some people here to understand it is not snowing and horrible weather and outside is more fun for Daisy!


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## buckeyegoldenmom (Oct 5, 2008)

I just do not believe a puppy of 3months or even older is safe outside for extended periods of time without supervision. 

I understand we are coming from different environments and social upbringing of pets. ( I have always had my pets indoors with me and outdoors with supervision) I just don't believe a golden, especially a golden puppy should be outdoors without supervision. (puppies can find all sort of mischief to accidently get into!)

I really hope you will look into daycare or even a dog sitter to come over on the days you can't be there to play and walk the puppy once during the day. And yes I believe crates for periods up to 4 hours are better and safer for a puppy.

I know not everyone agrees with this advice. And I certainly don't want to sound like I am coming down on you. As always...this is just my opinion.


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## GoldenFan (Dec 14, 2009)

hang in there Californiagirl, puppyhood is just plain difficult at times! seriously, the majority of the adult population works. it doesn't mean we can't have dogs nor does it mean our dogs suffer. i'm with Ignutah, if your pup has an absolute safe and secure yard with water, shelter, bedding, a good climate, and some leg-stretching room, why not leave her outside as opposed to in a crate? that is of course assuming the barking/crying issue is under control so as not to disturb. 

i'm curious how you left things with animal control. i'm assuming you explained the food and shelter thing so that the only real issue was noise. did they have any suggestions or a recommended stategy? 

sorry your neighbors chose the animal control route although i guess i can understand it if they felt the puppy was in immediate danger. hopefully they are not petty enough to call animal control over the other matters you mentioned (parking, etc.). i would call immediately if i thought an animal was in danger, but i'm like you, it would take a serious amount of barking for me to call animal control for a noise complaint. and even then, i don't think i would do that before i attempted to address a noise issue with the owner first. i guess if i were you, i would still attempt to talk to the neighbor and address any safety concerns they may have. and i'd ask for their patience with the noise since its just a pup in a new environment. i'd also make sure they have all your contact information so that they might call you first if the noise or anything else gets to be too much for them. if all else fails, crate inside and pay someone to let her out once during the working day until she grows up/settles down a bit. good luck and keep us posted. congrats on your new pup.


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## californiagirl (Dec 11, 2009)

Thank you so much for the kind words! 

I went to the shelter to talk to them about the situation and they said they would have the officer call me. No one has called yet. 

The neighbors won't do as much as wave to me. So I have given up on them. However I am thinking about going over there within the week, or hopefully I will see someone outside soon so I can speak with them again. They are just not happy for some reason...my car got backed into the other day! Just a dent to the license plate but still, no note or anything. Its just not a good situation.

I am thinking about going down the street and asking if the other golden owner would be willing to come take Daisy out for a bit if I paid them. We will see how that works out.


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

SheetsSM said:


> As someone that's been volunteering with rescue & meeting all of the escape artists, I've yet to meet a single rescue that was content to stay in a yard all day. I've known them to clear 6ft stockade fences, dig under, chew their way out, push apart chain link...again my experience is from the rescue side and these weren't "bad" dogs, they were bored. Seeing how proficient and persistent a bored golden can be outside, I wouldn't take the risk.


 
My Raine (my last adoptee) escaped from her first foster by clearing a 6+ foot fence. Took several days, a close call with a copperhead, and a live trap to catch her. And this was all because something spooked her. Because of that we can't ever trust her and she is on leash at all times.

As a puppy, there really isnt a whole lot she can get into from your description, but as she gets older and stronger and smarter it will become more dangerous for her to be left alone daily in the yard.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Of course it isn't without risk when someone leaves a dog outside. As others have mentioned the dog can escaped, get stolen, or even get poisoned. Those thoughts have entered my mind every time I have left my dogs outside.

But there's a risk for everything. In the summer, I very seriously worry about my air conditioning going out while I am not home. I have no doubt that if the air were to go out all day in my part of the country, I would come home to four dead dogs. So I cover the windows so there's no sunlight coming in, and I turn a fan on the dogs. Then I worry if something happened with the fan and it caught on fire, my dogs would be trapped inside.

There's a risk to everything we do. We put ourselves at a huge risk everyday when we get into an automobile, but most of us don't have a choice to do otherwise. We take the most precautions we can for the situation we're in. There's never a perfect answer.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Good point, Louisiana. My sister's house burned down, with 4 dogs inside.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

For quick reference, here is the link to the Santa Barbara County Public Health Department. This may not be the area you live in, but perhaps you will find it helpful.

http://www.sbcphd.org/as/barking_dogs.html

I have to say that I disagree with your choice to leave your 3 month old puppy outside alone for 9 hours a day. You are doing things the way you were raised. I believe in a much higher standard of care. I would never consider what you are doing. It is disappointing to know you are choosing this plan for your puppy's care - it would have been easier to believe that you just did not know. 

I hope you will talk to the trainer at the class you are taking about this arrangement. I hope you will really think about the risk you are taking.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Loisiana said:


> Of course it isn't without risk when someone leaves a dog outside. As others have mentioned the dog can escaped, get stolen, or even get poisoned. Those thoughts have entered my mind every time I have left my dogs outside.
> 
> But there's a risk for everything. In the summer, I very seriously worry about my air conditioning going out while I am not home. I have no doubt that if the air were to go out all day in my part of the country, I would come home to four dead dogs. So I cover the windows so there's no sunlight coming in, and I turn a fan on the dogs. Then I worry if something happened with the fan and it caught on fire, my dogs would be trapped inside.
> 
> There's a risk to everything we do. We put ourselves at a huge risk everyday when we get into an automobile, but most of us don't have a choice to do otherwise. We take the most precautions we can for the situation we're in. There's never a perfect answer.


I think anyone who has this attitude, should not be responsible for the care of any living being. Isn't it the same as saying, I'm going to die anyway, so I might as well smoke? Leaving a 3 month old puppy outside alone for 9 hours is unsafe - there are other alternatives to this arrangement. What about being proactive?


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## californiagirl (Dec 11, 2009)

Marty's Mom said:


> I believe in a much higher standard of care.


 
I do not think leaving my puppy in a crate all day is a better choice. We live in a converted garage so there is NO insulation. We either have HOT heat or COLD cold. The cats have been fine with the windows open and a fan on when it is hot out with plenty of water & food. However I do not think a puppy or any dog should have to live in a small crate for the majority of its life, especially when no one can come by to let her out. This is the same reason she has a dog bed she sleeps on at night, not a crate. She knows its her bed and will go there if told to lay down. If I wanted an animal I could keep locked up I would have got a hamster! 

I believe Daisy loves me just as much or more than any of the dogs you all own. This is what she knows. This is all she has ever known. If we didn't have the cats then we would have a doggy door for her to go in and out. She is smart, and I trust her. Nothing has happened yet except for angry neighbors. I am not assuming the worse with her as she has not shown me she is trying to escape and run away. 

My original plan when I brought her home was to take her to work with me everyday. However that is not an option at the moment (see earlier post.) If I knew that I would have waited, but I have a puppy now and am trying my best to take care of her. 

I can guarantee you that there are plenty of dogs and puppies in the Santa Barbara area that stay outside for most of the day. Isla Vista is soo close and there are plenty of college kids there that get puppies and get too busy and leave them outside. 

I think I am doing a pretty good job and please remember this is not an every week thing. My b/f works nights atleast once a month so for that week she is inside or running around with him ALL day!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Its good she gets time in the house learning house rules. That will help her alot. 

I do worry about puppies doing dumb things (like eating rocks and swallowing sticks as long as puppy...which was what Lucky liked to do), but I don't have a problem with a dog outside most the day unless they are destructive or exhibit negative behavior which means they are unhappy in their situation.

If you can have someone check on her once or twice a day that would be good. I do think its best they have lots of interaction during this phase as they grow sooooo quick. Which is another reason why its nice she has that inside time while your BF is home.

Don't understand quite what's going on with your neighbors....but I hope they aren't into puppy stealing:uhoh: Especially if they hear pitiful puppy cries.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

Getting back to your original post, my post to you, and the post from Marty's Mom with the link to Santa Barbara's Barking Dog Ordinance (which I would take a look at, if I were you) is that the huge unknown in all of this is your area's Animal Control Department. How proactive are they? I don't know. I know that California is a busy with proposed laws that impact pet owners/breeders so all in all, my advice to you is to take action immediately to get your golden's barking under control.

As per the link that MM sent, the city, on the second complaint, can require you to put your golden inside--making all our opinions moot.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Marty's Mom said:


> I think anyone who has this attitude, should not be responsible for the care of any living being. Isn't it the same as saying, I'm going to die anyway, so I might as well smoke? Leaving a 3 month old puppy outside alone for 9 hours is unsafe - there are other alternatives to this arrangement. What about being proactive?


That's kind of rude. What do you suggest Loisiana do if leaving her dogs alone in an air conditioned house isn't good enough?

And Loisiana, your post scares me! Now when I'm in LA all I'll be thinking about is, "Oh god, is the air conditioning working?" Thank goodness I'll be living with two other people.


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## californiagirl (Dec 11, 2009)

rappwizard said:


> Getting back to your original post, my post to you, and the post from Marty's Mom with the link to Santa Barbara's Barking Dog Ordinance (which I would take a look at, if I were you) is that the huge unknown in all of this is your area's Animal Control Department. How proactive are they? I don't know. I know that California is a busy with proposed laws that impact pet owners/breeders so all in all, my advice to you is to take action immediately to get your golden's barking under control.
> 
> As per the link that MM sent, the city, on the second complaint, can require you to put your golden inside--making all our opinions moot.


 
I read the whole page, no worries there! I am beginning to think they are not very proactive, seeing as how I went in there not even an hour after they stopped by and left me the note and asked to have the officer call me so I could discuss the situation further. I have yet to here a call back from him. 

It was not a bark complaint, it was a crying complaint. Which she does when she can hear people close by and wants to say HI to. She will not start to whine until she sees me come through the first gate. So I assume (which I probably shouldn't) that my neighbors are outside in there yard making noise and Daisy wants to play. She loves people and wants to be with them. They see this as her being neglected, which I can assure you she is not. She is with me as I type!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Marty's Mom said:


> I think anyone who has this attitude, should not be responsible for the care of any living being. Isn't it the same as saying, I'm going to die anyway, so I might as well smoke?


No, throwing a dog outside loose without a fence at all to wander the neighborhood would be more like the same as saying that. My saying that everything has risks doesn't mean you shouldn't take precautions. I was just pointing out that no matter how many precautions you take, there will still always be a risk of something going wrong.


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## Evil Eagle (May 4, 2009)

I've learned this isn't a very good place to vent, especially when it comes to how you are raising your dog. Definite mob mentality.


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## californiagirl (Dec 11, 2009)

Evil Eagle said:


> I've learned this isn't a very good place to vent, especially when it comes to how you are raising your dog. Definite mob mentality.


 
I'm quickly learning that and also feel as though now anything else I post anywhere will be looked at as "Oh, don't listen to her, she's the girl that leaves her puppy outside! What a horrible mother!" :uhoh:


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## Evil Eagle (May 4, 2009)

Eh, don't worry about it. Its a good place for info on the breed, and questions. But I learned fast to keep things like raising and training to my self. I didn't read all the responses but I'm wondering if someone called you hitler like they did to me on this forum. I was shocked that someone would do that and no one else payed any attention to it.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

kdmarsh said:


> That's kind of rude. What do you suggest Loisiana do if leaving her dogs alone in an air conditioned house isn't good enough?
> 
> And Loisiana, your post scares me! Now when I'm in LA all I'll be thinking about is, "Oh god, is the air conditioning working?" Thank goodness I'll be living with two other people.


 
KDMarsh, huh? I think you misread the post. Oh brother - this is nuts - I'm going to walk my dogs . . . . think about this - alot could go wrong, but that does not mean you should not do everything you can to provide a reasonable level of care. Leaving a 3 month old puppy outside - alone- is not a reasonable standard of care. That is my opinion.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Don't worry californiagirl i have the feeling no one likes me on this forum as my 2 golden retrievers are outdoor dogs 24/7. There completely happy well adjusted dogs, they don't whinge or bark much at all. Shelley was raised outside since birth from the breeder, I tryed having her indoors she screamed the housed down. She wouldn't stop howling till i put her outside then she was happy. 

I too don't think its nice to leave a dog locked up in a crate most of the day can't compare a crate which is like what 3-4ft in length to a reasonable size backyard. My dogs love the freedom yes they will accept being tied up but no more then 30 minutes anymore then that they start whinge and howl. I hate to see people baby there dogs theres such thing as loving a dog and going over board. I own chihuahua but i do not baby him eg carry him everywhere,laugh when he barks at people or other dogs he is treated just llike any other dog. He barks i tell him No,his trained just like my 2 goldens are. I believe a outdoor dog can be just as happy as an indoor dog as long as there given enough attention etc which my dogs get plenty of.


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

You only need to leave a puppy in a crate. A full-grown, housebroken dog can be left in the house. The thing is, Golden Retrievers are very sensitive dogs who need to be with their "pack", their family. Relegating them to a backyard is isolating and they will dig, climb and find ways to get out because they are so lonely. 

It isn't cruel to leave a puppy in a crate, because it is the best way to housebreak them and it keeps them safe. But it isn't a forever thing. Living outside is not a good life for a dog, especially not a Golden Retriever. Please rethink it for the sake of your puppy.


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

Romeo said:


> You only need to leave a puppy in a crate. A full-grown, housebroken dog can be left in the house. The thing is, Golden Retrievers are very sensitive dogs who need to be with their "pack", their family. Relegating them to a backyard is isolating and they will dig, climb and find ways to get out because they are so lonely.
> 
> It isn't cruel to leave a puppy in a crate, because it is the best way to housebreak them and it keeps them safe. But it isn't a forever thing. Living outside is not a good life for a dog, especially not a Golden Retriever. Please rethink it for the sake of your puppy.


I agree with this. 




californiagirl said:


> I take it as part of what living in a neighborhood that allows pets brings with it. Dogs bark Hounds howl, etc.


I do not agree about this. 

People who choose not to have pets shouldn't have to listen to other people's pets. Just as it's your choice to own the animal, it's their choice NOT to own the animal. 

I own dogs, but that doesn't mean I want to listen to the other dogs in my neighborhood bark all the time. I've trained mine to stay quiet (while crate training them, and apparently torturing them with it:gotme:...) so I wouldn't bother my neighbors with their noise. 

Not being rude. Just being honest.


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

I do not agree with leaving any dog outside, let alone a 3 month old puppy. But californiagirl seems willing to listen to reason.
I have a fenced in backyard, in a safe neighborhood. I rarely even lock my doors, and my keys are in my ignition at all times. Still wouldn't. Crate training is important. It helps so much with housetraining. I also believe that, even if you don't ever crate your dog again after they are trustworthy in the house, that its important for a dog to be comfortable in a crate. For overnight vet stays, boarding, should they ever need to be flown in the cargo area of an airplane, etc. Of my three dogs, one still has to be crated, the other 2 do not. When I took my goldens crate down about 6 months ago she actually became depressed. She would lay in the corner where her crate was and sigh. After a few months I put it back up and she is happy as a clam. I don't shut her in it, but she willingly lays in there all the time. Sage, my 7 year old lab mix, hasn't been crated since she was 8 months old, but if I say "inside", she will go in. If I ever had to do any of the things stated above, I would feel comfortable with the fact that she wouldn't freak out in the crate. Obviously Taz would be fine, as would Sydney because she still has to be crated. 
Keep in mind also that if your neighbors dislike you enough to call animal control on you, they are capable of poisoning, stealing, or hurting your dog. They know she's there.
Just think everything over. 3 months is very young to be left alone outside. And crate training is good for a lot more things than just potty training.


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## californiagirl (Dec 11, 2009)

Mssjnnfer said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am not saying anyone is torturing any animal. Everywhere I have ever lived has had animals in the neighborhood. Most of the times if there was a dog, it would bark, and if it really drove me crazy I would speak to the neighbor and I never had to call AC. If I was some person that did not want an animal and did not want to live near one that made noise I would either live in an apartment complex where animals were not allowed or I would purchase a home away from a neighborhood. This is all beside the point however. 

I do not think that my neighbors are that mean spirited (although I will admit they have some issues!) to poison my dog, as they have 2 of there own. 

I would rather by a lock for the gate and put up security cameras and let Daisy be happy outside. 

I can see that there is no winning here and no matter my choice someone will not be happy. I am feeling more confident in my decision to let her play happily outside and will be checking next door at the end of the week to see if they notice any difference in noise. 3 months may be young but like I have said before, the lady I got her from had all of the puppies and mom outside 24/7. The first time Daisy was ever inside was to meet me.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

I'm glad you're not worried about animal control either. But you have one complaint lodged against you--make sure you comply with any city and county laws. I just did a quick check and your city requires rabies vaccine and registration at 4 months, so if I were you, I would make sure my pup was properly vaccinated and registered, since the fees for non-compliance can add up.

Also, effective January 1, the county of Santa Barbara passed what is in essence a mandatory spay/neuter ordinance--all dogs and cats 6 months or older must be spayed or neutered. Certain exceptions apply based on health, proof of AKC registration, some other things I can't recall. I would make that appointment to the vet's. There are fees for violating the ordinance.

Oh yeah, animal control will be hiring 3 extra people to help them enforce animal control laws--how will they get the $$$$? From the new licensing fees they enacted.

Just a heads up.


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## californiagirl (Dec 11, 2009)

rappwizard said:


> I'm glad you're not worried about animal control either. But you have one complaint lodged against you--make sure you comply with any city and county laws. I just did a quick check and your city requires rabies vaccine and registration at 4 months, so if I were you, I would make sure my pup was properly vaccinated and registered, since the fees for non-compliance can add up.
> 
> Also, effective January 1, the county of Santa Barbara passed what is in essence a mandatory spay/neuter ordinance--all dogs and cats 6 months or older must be spayed or neutered. Certain exceptions apply based on health, proof of AKC registration, some other things I can't recall. I would make that appointment to the vet's. There are fees for violating the ordinance.
> 
> ...


Yep, already talked to them about the licensing as they were trying to give me the citation for that as well last weekend. She will get licensed in the next couple weeks. I am well aware of what I need to have done for her. I have already gotten the letter in the mail from the vet reminding me to get her rabies vaccine. That will be getting done soon as well.


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## Fidele (Sep 17, 2008)

Regarding crate training: I've never had a crate trained dog - but I wish I had known to crate train. When my Belle was undergoing chemo for lymphoma she had to be caged/crated during her treatments. While caged for treatments, she barked incessantly the whole time, obviously upset and not understanding the cage. Had she been used to being crated, the whole process would have been much less stressful on her. I really feel there is true value in crate training (not the same, IMHO, as total confinement)


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

californiagirl said:


> If I was some person that did not want an animal and did not want to live near one that made noise I would either live in an apartment complex where animals were not allowed or I would purchase a home away from a neighborhood. This is all beside the point however


I'm sorry, but I really think this is ridiculous.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Re: mob mentality post - Eagle. I disagreed with whatever it was you were doing but you said at least I was rational about it. I don't think it's mob mentality because I for one do not change my stand based on what the majority of posters think. Life would be easier that way! You get this kind of reaction when a lot of people disagree with whatever you are doing which should translate into gee, if 85% of golden owners don't do this, I probably shouldn't either.

CG, if someone wants an outdoor dog then they should get an outdoor breed. Same with the other poster whose goldens live outdoors 24/7. Does that mean they never come in? Heck, why get dogs at all? Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I don't like you. I won't for sure be listening to whatever tips you have as I so deeply disagree on this point.

Crates aren't for me because I have a layout that makes it possible without. I used to think that crates were sad and bad things but I've come to learn that they are the opposite of that. If I were in your situation, I wouldn't be without a crate and there is no way I would leave a tiny puppy like that outside for that long. There are just too many risks that you are choosing to minamize. For the other person who said, all life is risk. Yeah, but there's a difference between leaving your house with a candle burning on a newspaper than not. You are taking much bigger risks and you can minimalize it all you want to, that doesn't take away from the truth of the situation.

So my issues with how you are raising the dog are 2 things. One, the outdoor for that long. Not okay. sooooo not okay. Number 2. Your line about there is no way for the dog to have anyone over for 9 1/2 is crap. Like I said, at the very least you could employ someone to let your puppy out 2 times a day until she gets bigger and there is no excuse in my book for that not happening. 

Yes you can make this work with your working scheds but IMO, I don't consider what you are doing making it work well enough to my standards. I know there are ppl out there who see dogs for less than they are and treat them by lower standards then I believe we owe them. I am very strong in my opinions on what standards of care I believe they should have and so are a great many people on this forum. We may all have different standards but I really think that you should look at the whole and if you respect any of the ppl on this forum, note their stand and work it from that point. I don't think you should be feeling better about leaving a 3 month old outside all day with no one checking in on her.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

momtoMax said:


> CG, if someone wants an outdoor dog then they should get an outdoor breed. Same with the other poster whose goldens live outdoors 24/7. Does that mean they never come in? Heck, why get dogs at all? Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I don't like you. I won't for sure be listening to whatever tips you have as I so deeply disagree on this point.
> 
> 
> So my issues with how you are raising the dog are 2 things. One, the outdoor for that long. Not okay. sooooo not okay. Number 2. Your line about there is no way for the dog to have anyone over for 9 1/2 is crap. Like I said, at the very least you could employ someone to let your puppy out 2 times a day until she gets bigger and there is no excuse in my book for that not happening.
> ...


Okay, I need to point out that the GRCA standard clearly states that the Golden Retriever is primarily a HUNTING DOG and further states they should have a good undercoat and the dogs should be shown in hard working condition, and be a symmetrical, powerful, active dog. This is the included in the very first paragraph of the breed standard.

Technically, most hunting dogs in years past have been outside dogs and possibly are in the present. We are fortunate that our beloved breed also has outstanding temperments and can adapt to living their lives indoors, but to say they cannot be outside dogs places your beliefs and opinions over how many working dogs are housed .. and it is the working dogs who truly embrace the 'primarily a hunting dog' portion of the Golden Retriever standard.


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## HoldensMom (Dec 3, 2007)

I was about to chime in on the indoor vs. outdoor thing, but sunrise makes a good point about the working dogs. Most of the people I know who own hunting dogs or sled dogs keep them in pens. Now, I don't know much about working dogs or how working dogs should be housed, but it does seem to be the norm. Whether or not it's "right" is for another discussion, I suppose.

What I do know, however, is that my my childhood dog was a yard dog, and though I loved him very much, I vowed never to keep another dog like that. He just never felt like a complete part of the family to me. Sometimes I'd sneak him inside when my father wasn't home. Still, it makes me sad to see family dogs that are confined to the outdoors, especially the gentle breeds like goldens. An adult dog that spends time outside in a fenced area is perfectly fine with me, but when I see one who lives outside... well... like I said, it just makes me sad.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Sunrise said:


> Okay, I need to point out that the GRCA standard clearly states that the Golden Retriever is primarily a HUNTING DOG and further states they should have a good undercoat and the dogs should be shown in hard working condition, and be a symmetrical, powerful, active dog. This is the included in the very first paragraph of the breed standard.
> 
> Technically, most hunting dogs in years past have been outside dogs and possibly are in the present. We are fortunate that our beloved breed also has outstanding temperments and can adapt to living their lives indoors, but to say they cannot be outside dogs places your beliefs and opinions over how many working dogs are housed .. and it is the working dogs who truly embrace the 'primarily a hunting dog' portion of the Golden Retriever standard.


Exactly!! Sometimes as I read posts I wonder how a sporting breed that is meant to fearlessly crash through brush and retrieve birds becomes a soft, sensitive (you wouldn't have a good retriever if s/he decided the water was too cold or the bush too prickly) dog that cannot stand to be outside for long hours...


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

I can see this pup doesn't actually live outside and as Ive already said, her quality of life is actually better in the garden than the same amount of time in a cage. Nobody could convince me that 9 1/2 hours in a crate for a puppy is not cruel, it just is. It _is _nicer for the pup to be outside for that amount of time but I would endlessly worry about safety. 
Now the main issue for me is that the pup is actually ALONE for that amount of time. She should still be getting a mid-day meal at that age, never mind her need for human company and care. With the best will in the world, if you physically aren't there to look after the puppy then the puppy is not getting properly looked after for huge portions of the day. Some people clearly think that is ok so there is probably little point banging on about it further. Of course we cannot all sit at home all day looking lovingly at our dogs but it is certainly possible to put provisions in place to take care of a puppy whilst you cannot be there. If that wasn't possible then I definitely wouldn't have a puppy...the needs of a living creature are more important than a person's desire to have a puppy.


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

Fidele said:


> Regarding crate training: I've never had a crate trained dog - but I wish I had known to crate train. When my Belle was undergoing chemo for lymphoma she had to be caged/crated during her treatments. While caged for treatments, she barked incessantly the whole time, obviously upset and not understanding the cage. Had she been used to being crated, the whole process would have been much less stressful on her. I really feel there is true value in crate training (not the same, IMHO, as total confinement)


My point exactly. Getting your dog used to a confined area is a great thing to do, even if you don't use the crate all the time. Like I said, my golden LOVES her crate. She moped around like she lost her best friend when I took it down to make more room in the family room. As soon as I put it back up, happy dog again. So up it will stay. 
In a perfect world, we would all not have to work and be able to stay at home and raise our puppies and children full time. But we don't live in a perfect world. If we all waited until we were home all day to get a dog, then most of us could never get a dog, or not get one until we retired. Puppyhood is a very short time frame. Its tough to do with a full time job, but I've done it with 3 dogs and we all survived. I'm gone now for 9+ hours a day, and will continue to be probably until I retire (I'm only 27, I have a ways to go, unless I find a rich man). But my dogs are happy, healthy, well taken care of, and social. And they sleep all day while I'm gone, and even when I'm home on my day off they sleep until the time I usually would be getting home.


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## Evil Eagle (May 4, 2009)

I have a book about Goldens I bought before I got Sam. In the part talking about housing, it says while you are away from the house, the dog will probably be happier outside, but when you are home to keep it inside. Sam has always been an inside dog, but I am not going to tell someone else that keeping a dog outside (except in extreme temperatures) is wrong.


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## LilTuffGirl (Sep 22, 2009)

My GR isn't a puppy and I didn't get a puppy because I don't have the time for a puppy. 
I think it's great some of you can keep your GR inside all the time. Someone here is pretty much ALWAYS home so Hayden spends most of her time indoors... BUT she gets bored inside and starts whining like crazy if I don't give her some outdoor time. She likes to wonder in the backyard and roll. 

If my husband and I are both away she stays in the back yard and is 100% fine. We have a huge heated dog house for her and she always has food and water outside (she's good at only eating what she wants.. which is always 2 cups a day oddly).

I also couldn't imagen having any age dog in a crate for that long. But also leaving a pup outside that long isn't the best idea either. For sure needs a dog house.


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## ggd (Apr 8, 2009)

I think that a pup that young being outside by itself for long periods is not the best idea. It is not abusive but at that age they get into everything and could very well get into trouble and no one would be there to help them. I would at least get someone to check on the pup a couple of times a day. Once they are grown they can stay outside if the weather is not extreme as long as they have proper water, food and shelter. It sounds like the pup is inside as soon as someone is home so that is good. 
I think a dog that is outside 24/7 will never be as happy and part of the family as one that is in the home. I have been around “pure” hunting dogs that were keep outside 24/7 and thought they were well taken care of they were not family members more “tools” to perform a job. I have also been around hunting dogs that were inside dogs that I believe lived much better life’s as family members.
I believe much is missed by both the dogs and humans when dogs are outside 24/7 (or 90% of the time). However “outside” dogs that are well care for are not abused just because they are outside.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Exactly!! Sometimes as I read posts I wonder how a sporting breed that is meant to fearlessly crash through brush and retrieve birds becomes a soft, sensitive (you wouldn't have a good retriever if s/he decided the water was too cold or the bush too prickly) dog that cannot stand to be outside for long hours...


 
Okay this is to you and Sunrise. Save the, wow, that was mean. Or gee, that was harsh comments that may follow please. 

To say that goldens can adapt to be indoors is a HUGE understatement and misrepresentation of the breed and shows little understanding IMO. It's not that a golden's body and coat aren't good for spending long hours outside hunting, it's that a golden's super strong human need/pack need mentality that shouldn't be forced to endure being outside all the time away from it's people. Some dog breeds do best being outdoors and it's not just a thing about coats - it's about the mentality as well. 

I typed in do goldens make good outside dogs? The answer time after time is no. Want to read up - http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=do...+dogs?&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701

Have any of the breeders on this site chimed in on Daisy's current care plan? I wonder if any of them would sell to CG knowing the situation of this puppy? Would the breeders here be Aokay about it? And there are some amazing and knowledgable GR breeders here so their opinion on the matter would be neat to know.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

momtoMax said:


> Have any of the breeders on this site chimed in on Daisy's current care plan? I wonder if any of them would sell to CG knowing the situation of this puppy? Would the breeders here be Aokay about it? And there are some amazing and knowledgable GR breeders here so their opinion on the matter would be neat to know.



Having only bred two litters I do not consider myself a breeder but I will give my two cents here.
I think you would surprised how many of the "top" breeders setups are not the indoor, human interaction, palaces you might think. Many of there dogs are kept in kennel setups with the ability to go outdoors in the runs or indoors in the pens. And these are not folks who live in the milder climate areas of the US. And Canada does not have a "milder climate" section. These breeders will many times have their senior dogs as in "house" dogs and may rotate the rest between the kennel and the house. These dogs adjust just fine and do not have any temperament issues. 
As to would I be Aokay with Californiagirl's arrangements I will have to give that a couple of answers. First I would have known about it before ever considering her for one of my pups and it would have been discussed in detail, just as were every family I have placed a puppy with. Moost of those families were not home 24/7 so we did discuss crating and time left alone before hand. And at this time without seeing exactly what the set up is in this case I can not give a definitive answer but I don't think I would be okay with it from the way it sounds. But as I stated early in this thread it would most definitely be doable, it would just need to be worked out. And if we could not come to an agreement on that then I would not place a pup with her, and she would not be the first family that I denied a puppy to.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Im not a breeder, but am in rescue, I can say that the Op wouldnt be able to get a Puppy from us since this is her setup, for that matter she wouldnt get a older dog from us either.Being in rescue , I have seen just about all and NOWAY SHAPE OR FORM would I EVER leave any of my dogs outside, at least in crates I know they are safe and nothing can happen to them. If I left one of them outside and something happen to them I would never forgive myself.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> Having only bred two litters I do not consider myself a breeder but I will give my two cents here.
> I think you would surprised how many of the "top" breeders setups are not the indoor, human interaction, palaces you might think. Many of there dogs are kept in kennel setups with the ability to go outdoors in the runs or indoors in the pens. And these are not folks who live in the milder climate areas of the US. And Canada does not have a "milder climate" section. These breeders will many times have their senior dogs as in "house" dogs and may rotate the rest between the kennel and the house. These dogs adjust just fine and do not have any temperament issues.


That's very interesting, Ambika, thank you for answering and sharing your thoughts on that.

I've always known golden retrievers to be indoor/family kind of dogs, it never occurred to me until I came to GRF that breeders may keep their dogs outside in kennels. I was surprised, and honestly I still struggle with this. On one hand, it seems a double standard to me ... breeders want their puppies in the home but they keep their "stock" outside in kennels -- I know I don't understand the whole picture and I won't pass judgment. I just struggle with it.

A breeder has the option of screening their potential buyers for living arrangements. Puppy buyers can also do the same with breeders. Personally, I'm inclined to make the choice to go with breeders who keep their dogs indoors with the family - that's the philosophy I am most comfortable with.

I don't mean to hijack or go off course, I just rarely see the topic brought up here and I do think it's very interesting. Just wanted to take this opportunity to share my feelings


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

momtoMax said:


> Okay this is to you and Sunrise. Save the, wow, that was mean. Or gee, that was harsh comments that may follow please.
> 
> *To say that goldens can adapt to be indoors is a HUGE understatement and misrepresentation of the breed and shows little understanding IMO.* It's not that a golden's body and coat aren't good for spending long hours outside hunting, it's that a golden's super strong human need/pack need mentality that shouldn't be forced to endure being outside all the time away from it's people. Some dog breeds do best being outdoors and it's not just a thing about coats - it's about the mentality as well.
> 
> ...


Since this is addressed to me and Sunrise I will give my own response. First, I am not sure what caused you to write the above bolded statement. Again, I personally will not leave my golden outside while I am gone, HOWEVER, I do not think doing so constitutes poor care or makes someone a bad dog owner. Mine is free to roam inside the house while I am gone now and I know that they adapt well to inside living. But I would love to hear from you specifically why being free indoors--heck even crated--is superior to being free outside (let's ignore the age of the pup, as my guess is that you think this is inappropriate for any age). Even a break down-- pros and cons of both. Is there a con to crate training too? (I am playing devil's advocate here, as mine is crate trained and I do feel it is valuable.)

And, I may not be a breeder but when I was searching for one and did some visits. I can tell you that these reputable breeders who did all of their clearances and showed their dogs often had many dogs and many of these dogs spent a great deal of time in an outdoor dog run. Would these breeders give a puppy that would spend a lot of time outdoors? I don't know...but I am saddened sometimes (though I see the necessity) that one must sometimes jump through many hoops and do backflips to get a pup from a reputable breeder or one from a rescue.


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## 3SweetGoldens (Feb 28, 2007)

I have been reading with interest this complete thread, and I must say I agree with what both Ambika and Jo Ellen just posted. My own personal opinion is, that I was firm about this with my two litters of puppies.
My Golden's live inside 24/7. Yes, they like to go out to play and run around, but it is with supervision when they do it. We have 5 acres, at the end of a 1/4 mile driveway off the road. But... it is not fenced, and I wouldn't think of them being outside without me. Just too much chance of one of them hearing something in the woods and taking off after it, or swallowing rocks or things they shouldn't.
I was very adamant about them NOT being an outside dog in my contract, and would not home my puppies to anyone who wished to do that. Golden's are IMO just not the breed of dog that does well on their own outside alone for long length of time. It was very important to me, that if the new owners both worked, and the puppy was home, there were provisions in order so that the puppy was taken outside, played with, and taken care of during the day.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Since this is addressed to me and Sunrise I will give my own response. First, I am not sure what caused you to write the above bolded statement. Again, I personally will not leave my golden outside while I am gone, HOWEVER, I do not think doing so constitutes poor care or makes someone a bad dog owner. Mine is free to roam inside the house while I am gone now and I know that they adapt well to inside living. But I would love to hear from you specifically why being free indoors--heck even crated--is superior to being free outside (let's ignore the age of the pup, as my guess is that you think this is inappropriate for any age). Even a break down-- pros and cons of both. Is there a con to crate training too? (I am playing devil's advocate here, as mine is crate trained and I do feel it is valuable.)
> 
> And, I may not be a breeder but when I was searching for one and did some visits. I can tell you that these reputable breeders who did all of their clearances and showed their dogs often had many dogs and many of these dogs spent a great deal of time in an outdoor dog run. Would these breeders give a puppy that would spend a lot of time outdoors? I don't know...but I am saddened sometimes (though I see the necessity) that one must sometimes jump through many hoops and do backflips to get a pup from a reputable breeder or one from a rescue.


 
I read your post as support to keeping goldens as outside pets. They are hunting dogs, they have thick coats, they can be outside for hours!! I mean, they can't hunt inside can they? Sure, goldens can adapt to being indoors but they are still outside/hunting dogs. Saying that they can adapt to being inside is backwards thinking IMO - as long as people live inside, they are inside dogs who love to be outdoors with their people.

I think going into a pro and cons of being outdoors unsupervised vrs inside vrs inside of crate would be kind of pointless. I'm sure anyone can list thousands of dangers of the unknown and growing wilderness. That list is highly lowered for indoors (keeping in mind the age of the dog) and much less even of that for being crated. I will not be that person spending hours here making a list, sorry.  I'm not a crate training fanatic myself, but I would have to use it in certain situations. If I had done it with Max, my chair would not be all chewed and my cupboard corner wouldn't be mauled. Oh well, live and learn.

I agree with Jo Ellen about the kind of breeder I would feel comfortable getting a puppy from. Perhaps I am too niave. Thanks for the post - to Ambika - for teaching me some things I did not know. I guess breeders dogs have jobs of their own.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

well the taking off part has got alot to do with training my goldens and my chihuahua know not to leave the yard. We can even leave the gates open and they will not leave the yard even if another dog walks past. This is cause there trained not to, They will not take off after other animals and if they do one whistle they come back. 

To say goldens don't do well outside is bull my guys are thriving, there as much part of the family as any indoor dog. I had this conversatio many times over everyone who keeps dogs indoors reckon every breed of dog should be indoors. I don't see wild dogs living inside a house where they have heating and cooling. I treat my dogs like dogs not like human babies. All this talk of my dogs aren't allowed outside in fenced yard without supervision is bloody ridious. At least i let my dogs be dogs not treat them like humans. 

Hunting dog's spend all day outside hunting even in icey cold water i don't see how a dog that is kept inside 24/7 would have the coat for that. I've meet some goldens that are kept indoors 24/7 and there coats are hell of alot thinner then my 2 goldens coats. Also by keeping them indoors 24/7 reduces the imune level in your dog meaning a dog kept indoors all the time the imunity levels would be lower then one that is kept outdoors. I never had problems with my dogs they haven't been sick from the weather or anything. Yes Einstein has had some ear infections but that was caused by a dog biting his ears, He has also had 2 paralysis ticks but that is part of nature. I must be doing something right as Einstein is 11 years old and still going strong all he has some srthitis nothing else. The vet said he is young at heart and is like 2 year old dog in activity level. Einstein keeps up with Shelley who is 19 months old actually he is more active then Shelley. To say people who keep there dogs outside 24/7 is neglect it isn't my dogs get plenty of attention,walks,training,brushing. Here in australia if you called the rspca on someone who kept there dog outside 24/7 they would laugh at you. As long as the dog has shelter,food and water the rspca won't do anything. Theres plenty of people who keep there dogs outside 24/7 and spend alot of time with them and the dogs are happy,well adjusted there temperments are great. Just cause my goldens are outdoor dogs doesn't make them unloved there very much loved and cared for. There happy,people who have meet my dogs love them and can't believe hw well trained and behaved they are. The vets here don't believe in keeping dogs indoors 24/7 as the dog doesn't have much to keep it occupied as much as an outdoor dog would.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

A few have mentioned the Golden Retriever standard as an argument for keeping goldens outdoors. The actual position of the GRCA is much different. I remember we were handing out a piece of literature at the CCA event that made a statement about this... though I can't find that actual document (and really I'm too lazy to keep looking at this point), but I did find pretty much the exact same statement on this page: http://www.grca-nrc.org/rescuefaq.html



> 14. Will my golden make a good outdoor dog? Answer
> The Golden Retriever is not intended to live as an outside dog as they are very people orientated and are miserable being separated from the family they love! If you are not interested in keeping your golden indoors, this is not the dog for you. A lonely golden may bark incessantly, dig up the back yard or continuously escape to roam the neighborhood.


I have read this thread with interest... and avoided jumping in because I didn't think the OP needed much more of an earful than she'd already gotten. But I did think it important that the GRCA's position not be misrepresented here. That said, I do see a difference between one dog out in a yard, and a number of dogs in a well constructed outdoor setup under the care of a reputable breeder. For one thing, though time with the human family is more limited, there is still companionship there. While I agree with Jo Ellen that I would probably be more likely to seek a breeder who keeps the dogs in the house, I've learned never to say never.

Julie and Jersey


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Our rescue does not approve people who do not plan to have their golden live inside as pat of the family. That of course, does not mean no outside time. of course, as a sporting breed, goldens love the outdoors and exercise! Gunner loves to lie outside in the snow! But they also love being inside as part of the family lying across my lap on the couch.
I think we need to consider balance here. And as I said toward the beginning of this VERY LONG thread "we are talking about a three month old puppy. " My concern was not only loneliness all day but dangers in the yard (eating poisonous plants, digging, and other animals) & the possibility of being stolen.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Jersey's Mom said:


> A few have mentioned the Golden Retriever standard as an argument for keeping goldens outdoors. The actual position of the GRCA is much different. I remember we were handing out a piece of literature at the CCA event that made a statement about this... though I can't find that actual document (and really I'm too lazy to keep looking at this point), but I did find pretty much the exact same statement on this page: http://www.grca-nrc.org/rescuefaq.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, true. Being objective here, what 'defines' an outdoor dog? I would agree that being outdoors 24/7 is bad for a golden and they do need social interaction. But during those working hours--regardless of where they are (crate, yard, house)--they are not getting that social interaction. If a dog spends several hours outside while the owner is working but is then welcomed inside, walked, exercised, and loved is it really in bad shape because it was outside when the owner was working? Considering all other needs are met, because there are many. And sure, you may think the house is safer, but that may only be because you puppy-proofed it (hopefully) but you should likewise have done it in the yard.

Anyway, I really don't think there is any point arguing it. Especially because of the strong opinions and also the likelihood of statements being misinterpreted.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> Don't worry californiagirl i have the feeling no one likes me on this forum as my 2 golden retrievers are outdoor dogs 24/7.



That was actually a lesser reason, but one of the many. I don't think we need to go into all the other ones and hijack this thread.



I will say that allowing a dog to be alone outside all day long can lead to many behavioral problems, problems that you yourself have experienced and complained about on this forum, as well as other dangers to the dog's health. Digging, poop eating, barking, rock eating, dangerous plant eating, escaping from the yard.. just to name a few. A bored dog can get into a lot of trouble when left alone outside for so many hours a day. It's simply not the safest option for a puppy, and that is the point everyone has tried to make to the OP.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

GoldenSail said:


> Yes, true. Being objective here, what 'defines' an outdoor dog? I would agree that being outdoors 24/7 is bad for a golden and they do need social interaction. But during those working hours--regardless of where they are (crate, yard, house)--they are not getting that social interaction. If a dog spends several hours outside while the owner is working but is then welcomed inside, walked, exercised, and loved is it really in bad shape because it was outside when the owner was working? Considering all other needs are met, because there are many. And sure, you may think the house is safer, but that may only be because you puppy-proofed it (hopefully) but you should likewise have done it in the yard.
> 
> Anyway, I really don't think there is any point arguing it. Especially because of the strong opinions and also the likelihood of statements being misinterpreted.


I don't completely disagree with you... and I definitely do see the distinction between a dog who is outside 24/7 and one who is outside from 9-5 (or whatever). However, the difference between puppy proofing my home (or a specific area of my home) and puppy proofing an outdoor area is night and day. I can not feasibly pick up every rock and stick in my yard. I can't control what animals (possibly ill) may wander through my yard and potentially be caught and eaten by my dog. I cannot control whether someone will decide he is worth some money or would make a good bait dog and helps themselves to him. I can't control if some psycho tries to throw rancid or poisoned meat to my dog because he is barking incessantly. Just some examples. Again, I don't mean to say that the OP is being abusive or neglectful of her dog... and I certainly don't intend to attack her for her choice... but I don't think it's just as easy as saying that it doesn't matter where the dog is because he or she would be alone anyway, especially when we're talking about a 3 month old puppy.

Julie and Jersey


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

It's not that Goldens can't stand being outside. It's that they can't stand being outside alone, isolated from people. Hunting Goldens don't go out hunting by themselves.

BTW there are no "outside" breeds. ALL dogs want to be with their people.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

missmarstar said:


> That was actually a lesser reason, but one of the many. I don't think we need to go into all the other ones and hijack this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> I will say that allowing a dog to be alone outside all day long can lead to many behavioral problems, problems that you yourself have experienced and complained about on this forum, as well as other dangers to the dog's health. Digging, poop eating, barking, rock eating, dangerous plant eating, escaping from the yard.. just to name a few. A bored dog can get into a lot of trouble when left alone outside for so many hours a day. It's simply not the safest option for a puppy, and that is the point everyone has tried to make to the OP.


 
Well if you want to mention it like that dog inside fire happens when no one home dog dies outside dog has a chance to get away from fire. Inside boredom dog can chew couch,table chairs,poo and pee inside. someone can still steal a dog even when inside a home. Dog could possibly chew wires ,get ahold of chemicals,could get caught under bed. So see not only risks are outside there inside too. Happened here not long ago guy had his 4 dogs inside house caught fire while he was out all dogs dead. I also knew a person who kept his dogs outside his house caught fire dogs survived but the 3 of his cats that were inside didn't. 

So to say theres risks of a dog being outside compared to inside is just wrong there is the same risk of them being inside. I would love to see anyone come into my yard lol were always home and in the yard, plus Shelley is protecive and will not allow strangers in the yard.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> It's not that Goldens can't stand being outside. It's that they can't stand being outside alone, isolated from people. Hunting Goldens don't go out hunting by themselves.
> 
> BTW there are no "outside" breeds. ALL dogs want to be with their people.



You are right...better at being outdoors more anyways. Not that any dog should be outdoors 24/7 IMO. During the day, some dogs have a better mentality about being outside by themselves than a golden retriever. They do not dote on the thoughts of their owners as much as a golden does is what I meant.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> So to say theres risks of a dog being outside compared to inside is just wrong there is the same risk of them being inside.


 
Denail isn't just a river in Egypt!! Man, you are living in a dream world there. Hey, I found some reading you and the OP might find informative but I don't think that you are in a place or will allow yourself to think in any other way than you are now. 

http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_BackyardDogs.php

If you want your house protected, install a burglar alarm, not a dog.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Our breeder has a wonderful set-up for their Goldens. There is a long dog run for every two dogs. The dog run is wide. At one end of each run is a door that can be opened and closed so the dogs can go in and out of the run. Inside the door is an area the dogs can rest. It is has lighting, heat, and airconditioning. On the other side of that area is another door which allows the dogs into a large building. Our breeder also has a pond that he put in for the dogs to swim. There is also a large fenced in area for them to play. 

Our breeder lives on the premises - it is an extension of his home. We were there 4 times and visited with every single dog twice. Each dog had a beautiful coat and a wonderful personality. I wish I could work there - it was such a delightful experience. His set-up is so well done. He is very professional. He has a separate building where you can meet the puppies, play with them, and talk about their care - and finally - he and his wife are always there. This is their life. This is a breeder who ran out to our car as we were pulling away to double-check that we had enough food to feed our puppy because there was a snow storm ahead. He was genuinely concerned about our trip home - it was snowing heavily. 

Further, our breeder requires each owner to make time for a grooming lesson before you depart with your puppy. Also, in the contract, I had to agree to not use pesticides on my lawn - of course, that was easy - we use organic - but that is the care he takes.

I think if you read or hear, "dog runs", consider the breeder first. An excellent breeder will do whatever it takes to care for their dogs. So I wouldn't rule out any breeder until I actually visited the facility a few times, met the dogs, and saw the set-up first hand. 

Would I leave an adult dog outdoors all day? Absolutely not - I just don't trust what could happen. However, I will tell you that I am a mom that drove her children to school because I felt there was a lack of supervision on the bus. Yes - I drove my kids to school every day of their young lives and then, I went to my full-time job. 

It takes a tremendous amount of love, energy and coordination to raise children. The same is true for raising Goldens. 

The real issue is leaving a baby - a 3 month old puppy - alone, unattended for 9 hours a day. The real issue is the lack of supervision. The real issue is meeting the developmental needs of this puppy. I don't know of a single "expert" that would be comfortable with the set-up CaliforniaGirl described.

Think about it. Not to show disrespect, but how many of you have raised a puppy in recent years? Oh goodness - absolutely not - no question in my mind - I can't be diplomatic about it. Lets get real folks. Leaving this baby outdoors, with no one to check on him, and nothing to protect him from the elements or danger for 9 hours is neglect. 

CaliforniaGirl, what will you do when something happens? I cannot even begin to list the things that can go wrong for fear it will.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Marty's Mom- Exactly why I said never say never. Your breeder's set up sounds great... but bear in mind I've lived a very limited and sheltered life when it comes to breeders. I got my dog from my dad... a man who, in this very thread, states he doesn't even consider himself a "breeder." Seeing the litters raised in my house, experiencing the amount of time he put into those pups, I just can't fathom how larger scale operations manage (I know that they do, there's just a disconnect in my mind... and to clarify I mean larger scale reputable operations, like the one you described). That's where my personal comfort zone is because it's all I've known.... but I don't think I would turn away from your breeder if push came to shove.

I hesitate to use words like "neglect" because I think they tend to turn off the person we are hoping to reach and keep us from achieving that goal. Outside of that, I agree completely with your post.

Julie and Jersey


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Here is an interesting paper titled "Confronting Animal Neglect in America: Current Law and Future Possibilities." The author is Stephan Otto. See the following link:


www.aldf.org/downloads/298_confronting*animalneglect*i.pdf 


Stephan is an attorney and director of legislative affairs for the Animal Legal Defense Fund. This was written in 2007.
Since I am from Illinois, I was interested in our statutes. California is also provided - as well as the rest of the states. 

*"510 ILL. COMP. STAT. 70/3 (2004). Owner’s duties *
Each owner shall provide for each of his animals: 
(a) sufficient quantity of good quality, wholesome food and water; (b) adequate shelter and protection from the weather; (c) veterinary care when needed to prevent suffering; and (d) humane care and treatment. ​
* * * * * ​​*510 ILL. COMP. STAT. 70/3.01 (2004). Cruel treatment *
No person or owner may beat, cruelly treat, torment, starve, overwork or otherwise abuse any animal. ​ 
No owner may abandon any animal where it may become a public charge or may suffer injury, hunger or exposure. "​


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

The OP lives in California--looks like you cited Illinois law, Marty's Mom; however, I looked at the California section, and it's very similar, with requirements that a pet be protected from inclement weather. If I were the OP, I would look at the California section, and proceed with due care.


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## justmejanis (Feb 25, 2007)

We all have different ways of rearing our pups. I know for me personally I could never leave mine alone outdoors. Ever. When I am home they are allowed outside in my very large fenced acre or so, but they never seem to want to be out alone for long. I have a little over two acres. When I go out walking with them they are very comfortable staying out for long periods of time. They love our long strolls.

When I leave and cannot take them they are always in the house. None of them need to be crated as they are all adults and have free run of the house. I only raised one from a puppy and not very young. Murphy was rescued from a terrible situation at about four months old. I would never have left him outside unsupervised for even a minute. I was always outside with him when he was a puppy. Even though we are semi rural and there is very little traffic out here, I would not have felt comfortable leaving him in our yard without supervision at all times. Under no circumstances could I have left him alone for even a few minutes, much less hours. That is just not my comfort level. I too worry about so many different dangers that he could encounter. Little ones get bored and can get into trouble quickly. Regardless of whether or not some believe they are bred to be outdoor dogs, I could never do it. They are an integral part of my family and will always be in my home.

Just my two cents. I believe the OP cares for her puppy but think that there are thing she can do to make it both safer and less lonely for her little one.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Jersey's mom, I so dislike the word "neglect", too - but what else could you call it? " Is the 3 month old puppy getting proper care and attention when she is placed outside by herself for 9 hours a day? The neighbors reported the puppy because they were disturbed by her crying. I think that is a sign that something is wrong. I don't know if you can reach a person if they do not understand this.


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## cirrus (May 21, 2008)




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## Evil Eagle (May 4, 2009)

Marty's Mom said:


> Jersey's mom, I so dislike the word "neglect", too - but what else could you call it? " Is the 3 month old puppy getting proper care and attention when she is placed outside by herself for 9 hours a day? The neighbors reported the puppy because they were disturbed by her crying. I think that is a sign that something is wrong. I don't know if you can reach a person if they do not understand this.



That is a very vague way of saying that. Just because a PUPPY is crying, doesn't mean something is wrong. I crate trained Sam from 7 weeks to 3 months old. Any time he was in the crate and heard someone come home he was immediately crying for attention. So, using your theory on something being wrong because its crying, you're now saying that leaving them in the crate is inhumane too.:doh:


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Evil Eagle said:


> leaving them in the crate is inhumane too.:doh:


For 9 hours...yes definitely.


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## Evil Eagle (May 4, 2009)

Emma&Tilly said:


> For 9 hours...yes definitely.


AH HAH!!! :wavey:


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## Loboto-Me (Nov 13, 2008)

Evil Eagle said:


> That is a very vague way of saying that. Just because a PUPPY is crying, doesn't mean something is wrong. I crate trained Sam from 7 weeks to 3 months old. Any time he was in the crate and heard someone come home he was immediately crying for *attention*. So, using your theory on something being wrong because its crying, you're now saying that leaving them in the crate is inhumane too.:doh:


I stayed out of this one because I know myself, but I have been following the thread closely.

As you see, you've proven the main point... the pup NEEDS ATTENTION. Pups should never be left alone for any length of time due to their need of pack or family attention. It's a basic need that they should be given, otherwise it's called neglect.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Evil Eagle said:


> That is a very vague way of saying that. Just because a PUPPY is crying, doesn't mean something is wrong. I crate trained Sam from 7 weeks to 3 months old. Any time he was in the crate and heard someone come home he was immediately crying for attention. So, using your theory on something being wrong because its crying, you're now saying that leaving them in the crate is inhumane too.:doh:


Yes, I remember your comment about crate training and suggesting your method to the poster to get their puppy to be quieter in the crate which was : hit the dog and terrify it by smashing into the crate in anger. Did the book you read suggest that too? Have to bring it up to just show that when it comes to advice on what is neglect and cruelty and bad training methods, I would not go to you for insight.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Loboto-Me said:


> As you see, you've proven the main point... the pup NEEDS ATTENTION. Pups should never be left alone for any length of time due to their need of pack or family attention. It's a basic need that they should be given, otherwise it's called neglect.


I don't agree.

My Lucky cried when gated in the kitchen because he wasn't used to it....each night for several days. He also cried when he would rather be out chewing on my kitchen table legs. He was definately trying to get my attention to get him out. He also cried because he wasn't used to being alone or in the place I put him. 


In short, I did not neglect Lucky . I did what was best for him. 

I'm not for a three month old pup being outdoors...however I don't see a difference between a puppy crying in a crate, in the gated kitchen or outside. They are going to cry when they don't get what they want when they want it. They are going to cry getting used to new situations. 

Doing everything possible to keep a pup from crying when they need to get acclaimated with so many things doesn't do them a service in my opinion.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

I also think there's a huge difference between crying for what they _want_ and crying for what they _need_.

Do we give our kid the candybar he wants as we stand in line at the grocery store because he's crying? I wouldn't.

Do we give our kids hugs and kisses when they come crying to us with a boo-boo? I would.

See the difference?

I don't usually like to equate dogs to people, but in this case....

My Ziggy whines sometimes, but it's after I make sure he's okay and when he STOPS whining is when he gets my attention.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

GRZ said:


> I also think there's a huge difference between crying for what they _want_ and crying for what they _need_.
> 
> Do we give our kid the candybar he wants as we stand in line at the grocery store because he's crying? I wouldn't.
> 
> ...


If a puppy is crying because they need food or water...that is neglect. A puppy crying because they aren't used to being alone isn't neglect.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Lucky's mom said:


> If a puppy is crying because they need food or water...that is neglect. A puppy crying because they aren't used to being alone isn't neglect.


 
Lucky's mom thinks then that's it is not only okay but she would personally have no problems with leaving a 3 month old golden puppy outside with no supervision or interation for 9 1/2 hours sometimes 5 days a week. Also, she thinks that any whining this puppy does, or crying, should just be ignored by CGs neighbors and that they should accept that the puppy is just getting used to her surroundings all this time.

That is what you're saying since you are referring to this post, right? Hmm. Okay.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

I think this thread has outlived its usefulness.


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