# Teaching hold...



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok, so I totally got this idea from FlyingQuizini and have used it--teach him to balance a cookie on his nose. Then, when he is holding something you can have him balance the cookie at the same time to prevent the mouthing. You can then reward that good hold with the cookie at the end. As you guys progress you can take the cookie off his nose and expect the good hold to continue.

Good luck!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Some of you know that we're starting field training with Jack. We are at the very very beginning and working on "hold" with a bumper. He seems to get the concept but in the process tends to chew on the bumper. Well, not actually chew, I guess, but he bites down on it several times during the hold. Bad for a bird, so bad for a bumper. I don't want him to get into this habit, but I'm worried about correcting him too much and confusing him. He IS holding it so I'm not sure how to correct this biting down issue without making him think the hold is wrong. Any ideas or tips on how to curb this before it becomes a bad habit?


"Hold" is step one of force fetch, and is very important. Here are two clips that may help.





 




 
EvanG


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

We are working on this with Quinn (and Teddi). We started with a home made utility dumb bell. It is narrower, and it seemed to be less interesting to chew. Once they got that concept we moved to a puppy bumper. Quinn we are now working on holding the big bumpers, and movement with the puppy bumper. 

She does GREAT inside.... can't seem to get the concept outside. Be sure you do hold in several different places once you start to get it. 

Our big thing is when we transition back to FF? 

Teddi holds the dumb bell but does not want to hold the puppy bumper. Since she is just a 'training' dog we don't work her as often. She was better than Quinn, now she is not. We need to get working on her. She is a golden and will carry things around, just not when you want her to.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I just watched the videos above and Jack does what the dog does in the video. Not exactly chewing but moving the bumper around and biting down on it a bit. I emailed our trainer to find out his suggestions as well. 

This morning was better, he seems to be resigning himself to the hold. The couple times he did it I held his chin up without a complete correction, just so he couldn't really bite down (if that makes sense) and it seemed to work. Eventually he stopped. I wonder if it's just his form of rebelling against the hold?


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I wonder if it's just his form of rebelling against the hold?


No expert here but I just took it as "sitting here just holding this bumper is so boring I'll just entertain myself. An AHAH correction with light finger tap under the chin and me saying *HOLD,* followed by a ton of praise and pets while she is holding correctly work well for me. Also, I worked with the softest bumper I have when we first started. Some of them a really hard. 

Can't wait to hear of your progress though Field.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

That's a good point. He is used to generally just playing with toys so having something that he really likes that he can't actually PLAY with is something new for him. We have the training bumpers right now but I think the bigger and less smooshy bumper may be better. 

Our trainer had some suggestions depending on how consistent the biting becomes. I'm hoping we can correct it with the bumper but will take a step back and use a different, less-desirable object if need be. Our trainer is very anti any treats in field, so I'm trying to avoid using that as a reward - at least for now in the beginning. 

Once something more interesting than "he's heeling!" or "he's holding!" is happening I'll definitely update everyone on our progress. Jack has only been shown in conformation and had one (relatively ineffective) puppy obedience class, so we're very very novice. Starting with the obedience foundation for now, but working at it with field in mind.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

You won't find a bumper sofer than a paint roller. Nearly all dogs prefer them in the early going. But remember, you're training your dog to do this, not begging him. It needs to become entirely your idea, and your way as this progresses. It really doesn't matter if he's bored.

EvanG


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

EvanG said:


> But remember, you're training your dog to do this, not begging him. It needs to become entirely your idea, and your way as this progresses. It really doesn't matter if he's bored.
> 
> EvanG


You sound a lot like our trainer  Some of this is getting my brain around the idea that some things we train are not going to be entirely pleasant for him. But I'm working on it.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

You'll be fine. Besides, many times when we think what we're embarking on will necessarily be unpleasant, it really doesn't need to be. Not all fun & games, but not grim either. And the results last a career!

EvanG


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

We just had a really good training session! Jack held the bumper for over a minute without any movement of the bumper!!!!! Just holding it like he was told. baby steps!!!!!!!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

whoooo hoooo! Go Jackity Jack!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks!!!!!! I didn't even have to use the round brush in place of the bumper!!! Like I said, baby steps!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Sometimes we just need a little patience  Glad he is doing better--I hear ya about the food though I think it helps in places and can jump start things. And well, if he is like Scout you'll find now might be the only opportunity you'd get to use food with him when field training


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I thought I'd update those of you who are interested on how Jack is progressing with his beginning training. 

He's doing MUCH better on hold with his training bumper. No more biting and seems to "get it". He understands the word "fetch" with the training bumper and he hasn't even had the ear pinch done to him yet. He actually wags his tail the whole time he's holding the bumper, which is pretty cute. 

And in bigger news, yesterday we walked up and down the street with the bumper (about 1/4 mile) and he held it the whole time while heeling like a good boy! We're still working on what happens when we stop walking. He occasionally will drop it before I can have him "leave it" in my hand, so we're working on that.

Once we have it down with the training bumper we're starting with the normal sized bumper. I think we're going to be starting from square one with the big one, unfortunately. He doesn't love the big bumper yet like he loves his training bumper so it's been a bit more difficult when I've tried to work it into our sessions. Not sure why, they're the same material just bigger. I guess I need to build the positive association with it like we did with the training bumper. Any suggestions are appreciated!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm going to bet that Jack is going to surprise you and do really well with the big boy bumper.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I have found teaching a proper hold and retrieve to be easier on something they don't care for so much than on something they really love. It's more about teaching them the correct steps that way, not just them going Oh! Oh! I want that in my mouth right now!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> I have found teaching a proper hold and retrieve to be easier on something they don't care for so much than on something they really love. It's more about teaching them the correct steps that way, not just them going Oh! Oh! I want that in my mouth right now!


That's funny I was just thinking how you just have to get through the building blocks so you can get to the good stuff. The thing she loves to do, retrieve.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

How did you find your trainer?? I'm interested in getting Enzo started in field stuff once we get through at least this first obedience class, but I'm having a really hard time finding a trainer. Max's Mom did direct me towards a GR club that I'm going to look into joining for training days next summer, but I'd like to get started before then.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Enzos_Mom said:


> How did you find your trainer?? I'm interested in getting Enzo started in field stuff once we get through at least this first obedience class, but I'm having a really hard time finding a trainer. Max's Mom did direct me towards a GR club that I'm going to look into joining for training days next summer, but I'd like to get started before then.


I joined our local Golden Retriever club and was referred to someone who does field training with her dogs. I emailed her for suggestions and then she referred me to the trainer! I found that for a novice, like me, it's best to find out what the foundation needs to be before starting any group training. We went for an evaluation with our trainer and now we're working on heel, hold and sit/stay!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> I have found teaching a proper hold and retrieve to be easier on something they don't care for so much than on something they really love. It's more about teaching them the correct steps that way, not just them going Oh! Oh! I want that in my mouth right now!


hmmm...maybe that's the problem. He likes the training bumper TOO much. I emailed our trainer to find out what he thinks about the slight aversion to the big bumper. I bet he'll say the same thing.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

That's what I'm looking to do. I'm going to try to go to some obedience and rally trials that the GR club that Ann told me about are having next month. Hopefully, I'll be able to meet someone from the club there that can point me to a trainer that we can have just a couple sessions with in the meantime. Ann said that they didn't charge much for both her and her husband to join. I just feel like Enzo is capable of more than what he's doing. This dog was born to swim and retrieve, so I don't want to let him down.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

glad to hear it's going well! Tito doesn't care for the bigger bumpers either, I think it's just a thing about opening their mouths that wide. But I agree with Jodie, sometimes it's better to train with something they don't like.
One of the things Dan and I have had a problem with training Tito (and Jack sounds the same) is that he's TOO willing, so it's hard to tell if he's doing something because he wants to, because he knows I want him to, or because he knows he has to. Think about that distinction because it becomes critical later on in field training and when Jack is doing something, ask yourself the why of it.
We've had to find things that we know Tito doesn't want to do, regardless of whether or not he knows I want him to, in order to get him to realize that sometimes there just aren't any options. Sometimes over the summer that involved getting him hot and tired so that he was panting hard, and REALLY didn't want to hold the bumper (of course I didn't make him hold it long in those situations, just about 1/2 minute). Sometimes we'd make him heel around with a bumper although there was a bird right nearby. He's one of those dogs who will happily heel for a mile with a bumper in his mouth just because he likes the feel of the bumper in his mouth! I know it doesn't seem important as long as he's doing what you asked of him, but honestly the WHY he's doing it is more important than the fact that he's doing it. I know this from obedience, too.
Also, when Jack drops the bumper before you can take it from him, what do you do? That's something you might want to talk to your trainer about, because delivery to hand is one of the most important skills and you REALLY don't want to form any bad habits (like diving for the bumper yourself before he can drop it) right now.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Sam you should join. You should also come check out Northfield. Adele who owns Northfield is a member of Marshbanks too. She just got her MH title with one of her dogs and SH title with her other on the same weekend. 

This winter I am hoping I can convince Art to take some obedience classes with Adele I think he needs "more" to do over the winter or he will fall behind. I probably will take some with my pup. Adele does do some basic field classes in the spring before her trials and tests take off. 

Joining the club starting in March they have monthly training sessions at a near by facility. They are a great group of people. I think you should also look at agility with Enzo.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> One of the things Dan and I have had a problem with training Tito (and Jack sounds the same) is that he's TOO willing, *so it's hard to tell if he's doing something because he wants to, because he knows I want him to, or because he knows he has to.* Think about that distinction because it becomes critical later on in field training and when Jack is doing something, ask yourself the why of it.


That is exactly why the program for force fetch should be a complete one. There are numerous steps or phases of the FF process. However, the job is not done unless the work has been proofed. Lacking that, you are left to wonder, "Did I give my dog reliable tools for a lifetime, or did my smart little dog just learn to beat the drill?"

At the end of ear-pinch to fetch, prior to moving to the next step(s), I proof my work by applying friction-like restraint. Restraint is not outright denial of the fetch object. It's only friction. As the command "Fetch" is given, and pressure applied via ear pinch method, the dog is allowed to progress toward the object, but with a measured amount of restraint that he must fetch through - kind of like pulling a sled, as sled dogs do. At first it's a very slight amount. But over two or three subsequent fetches there is a bit more restraint until he's show me the restraint will not deter him from completing the fetch.

A dog that will not fetch through restraint isn't done, and that will answer your quandry conclusively.

EvanG


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> glad to hear it's going well! Tito doesn't care for the bigger bumpers either, I think it's just a thing about opening their mouths that wide. But I agree with Jodie, sometimes it's better to train with something they don't like.
> One of the things Dan and I have had a problem with training Tito (and Jack sounds the same) is that he's TOO willing, so it's hard to tell if he's doing something because he wants to, because he knows I want him to, or because he knows he has to. Think about that distinction because it becomes critical later on in field training and when Jack is doing something, ask yourself the why of it.
> We've had to find things that we know Tito doesn't want to do, regardless of whether or not he knows I want him to, in order to get him to realize that sometimes there just aren't any options. Sometimes over the summer that involved getting him hot and tired so that he was panting hard, and REALLY didn't want to hold the bumper (of course I didn't make him hold it long in those situations, just about 1/2 minute). Sometimes we'd make him heel around with a bumper although there was a bird right nearby. He's one of those dogs who will happily heel for a mile with a bumper in his mouth just because he likes the feel of the bumper in his mouth! I know it doesn't seem important as long as he's doing what you asked of him, but honestly the WHY he's doing it is more important than the fact that he's doing it. I know this from obedience, too.
> Also, when Jack drops the bumper before you can take it from him, what do you do? That's something you might want to talk to your trainer about, because delivery to hand is one of the most important skills and you REALLY don't want to form any bad habits (like diving for the bumper yourself before he can drop it) right now.


I think that is probably the problem and a problem. Who knew a dog that's too willing could be a bad thing? Weird. I think to correct it we need to focus more on using the big bumper to make sure he's getting it - not just holding something he likes. Our trainer said the ear-pinch step of FF will probably correct it. He just wants to make sure he gets the "hold" concept at this point (and heel, sit/stay and come).

After the first time he dropped it I corrected him with a "no", put it back in his mouth and we walked the last 5 feet or so again but then I had my hand under his chin when I gave him the sit command so he couldn't drop it. Then when he did it correctly he got lots of praise. It took a couple times with my holding my hand under his chin right before he sat, and then he did it correctly on his own. So I'm hoping that the next time we do that particular exercise it'll be better.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

When I see my dogs thinking about dropping the hold item, I bump them under the chin and say "hold". I try before they drop it... I also try to tap the ends and touch the object so the dog realizes until I say "give" they are to hold. 

Quinn is getting it. She is having issues transitioning to "outside" but slowly improving. We did a lot of this training in the AM before work and later in the evening watching TV to keep her mind occupied. So now we are working on our walks, at the park, etc. 

Teddi did great until we went to a bumper. I can't get her to hold that for any length of time. The wooden hold item Art made she could hold all day. This weekend at the rally trial she won a bunny (stuffed animal) she carried it ALL OVER the facility to show everyone, I know she can do it... Of course Teddi won't get beyond the bumper work, so it won't really matter. I am just training her so I learn how to train "Baby Hootie".


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Maxs Mom said:


> When I see my dogs thinking about dropping the hold item, I bump them under the chin and say "hold". I try before they drop it... I also try to tap the ends and touch the object so the dog realizes until I say "give" they are to hold.


That's exactly what I do. I did that indoors for a couple weeks now and he definitely got the concept indoors with no distractions. The proofing is something we're working on but we're baby stepping it outside. Right now only in our driveway and up and down the middle of the street (it's a private road so not a dangerous area) to minimize distractions. I think maybe I need to take a step back and start using the big bumper though.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I wouldn't remind him to hold it. He knows you want him to hold it. One command is all they get, and you already gave him one to hold it.
Let him drop it, and when you pick it up to give it back to him, grab his muzzle around the top (hard to explain) and put pressure on his lips until he opens his mouth up to take it. It should be mildly uncomfortable for him to have you do this. He will quickly learn that the way to avoid having you do this is simply to NOT DROP THE BUMPER! The choice is his. (once he's been thru FF you will just FF him to pick it up).
It's the beginning of his understanding that he is the one in charge of whether or not there is pressure applied, in a variety of ways. It can be leash pressure, e-collar pressure, ear pinch pressure, verbal pressure, grabbing the muzzle, all sorts of things. But the choice is his. 
The way Dan explained it to me, and it REALLY is true, is that the dog actually comes to enjoy the game of doing something BEFORE you are able to put any pressure on him. He thinks he's such a clever little fellow, he grabbed that bumper before you had a chance to grab his muzzle, and he just prances around so darned pleased with himself!!! Tito is that way already, and we're just beginning.
Otherwise I think you will end up with what I saw a lot of at the JH test a couple weeks ago. The dog would come back to approximately heel, but then would drop the bird. The handler is now faced with having to somehow convince the dog (especially hard if they've just come out of the water) to pick the bird back up and deliver it to hand, because if they don't, you fail. Other handlers were DIVING for the bird with both hands trying to get it before it hit the ground. Not a pretty sight.
Much better to have a dog that just plain won't drop it until told to put it in your hand, no?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I wouldn't remind him to hold it. He knows you want him to hold it. One command is all they get, and you already gave him one to hold it.
> Let him drop it, and when you pick it up to give it back to him, grab his muzzle around the top (hard to explain) and put pressure on his lips until he opens his mouth up to take it. It should be mildly uncomfortable for him to have you do this. He will quickly learn that the way to avoid having you do this is simply to NOT DROP THE BUMPER! The choice is his. (once he's been thru FF you will just FF him to pick it up).


Actual dog training. I like it! 

EvanG


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

That's a good suggestion. I'll try this for a few days and let you all know how it goes!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

LOL, Thanks Evan, we *have* learned a few things in 3 years of competitive obedience 




EvanG said:


> Actual dog training. I like it!
> 
> EvanG


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