# Alpha Roll



## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

I agree... doing it the wrong way can either hurt them or you...
I just know what works for us and it has shown it works as long as it is done Correctly.... But I too also beleive that a FIRM ALPHA Human MUST take control of any situation....


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

The first puppy classes I went to 15 years ago, we were trained to do the alpha roll.

As years went on, I read that certain breeds should never be rolled, like a Great Pyrenees, (I think I read Golden Retriever, too.) 

Since my first puppy, I have never used it again. I notice this time around in puppy kindergarten the subject never came up.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Well, I'm not even five foot two and although I don't wear a size two anymore have never had to use an alpha roll. Neither does my nephew who has a Pit mix and had an English Mastiff. 

I believe in being firm, but I believe people should really know what they're doing before using such a technique. Even the Monks of New Skete have revised their book suggesting the alpha roll not be used. I can't remember if it's due to the interpretation or not. 

I know there are pros and cons to every techinque. If this saves a dog from being euthanized and the person using the technique doesn't get injured, well, then it's a success. However is this the first method that should be tried?


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

I've never used it. Never will try to either.....especially with an angry dog.

It's a good way to get your face bitten off. There are other methods that work as well.

Dogs eventually recognize when they're larger and stronger than you are. By that point, you need to have gained their respect and they need to recognize your authority. If they don't.......boot camp is called for until they do.

The alpha roll should only be attempted by those who REALLY know what they're doing, and what they're trying to achieve.


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

Many methods can be used, from a firm NO to a roll, But I know what works for us and we will continue to use it.... To us it shows the dog that WE are the ALPHAS not them... 

Sometimes the roll may not work for every dog but I am not willing to risk a dog fight when I know that I can control them by doing this...

Again, these are my training methods and my opinions...
Use what you feel works BEST for you!!!


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## JimS (Jan 2, 2007)

I like the Volhard's long down better. Essentially, as a part of everyday training the Volhard's suggest that you put the dog in a down and enforce it. It's not the down command. You physically move the dog into the down position gently, and keep him there for a half hour. When he gets up, he gets moved back into the down. He's never held down...just moved to the down position. It's all about controlling the dog's position and is a very strong dominant act. Chase would try to get back up three or four times in the first five minutes or so, and then once or twice through the course of the half hour. Now, he just takes a nap. 

The long down isn't a brute force, life or death struggle with the dog that the alpha roll is. After a while, it's nothing more than TV time.


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

I don't use it....I have used it but don't anymore. I've found that confidence and attitude work better....for me anyways. My in-laws golden get's kinda jealous when Carson comes over and will push and growl at Carson, but as soon as I put my "alpha voice" on, he knows that he needs to stop.


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> I've never used it. Never will try to either.....especially with an angry dog.
> 
> It's a good way to get your face bitten off. *There are other methods that work as well.*
> 
> ...


 
Please share with us what other metods work for you?
The more we share the more people know and can use what works for them!!


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## ShadowsParents (Feb 27, 2007)

I'm against it. My Shadow is a very lovable, sweet dog that I trust in MOST situations, but one who has a very STRONG personality. I tried it ONCE and I quickly learned that he is one that will take the defense and 'fight back' and maybe bite my face off, like ACC said. I also learned from my trainer that this is a common response when a dog is forced into the submission.

angie


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

JimS said:


> I like the Volhard's long down better. Essentially, as a part of everyday training the Volhard's suggest that you put the dog in a down and enforce it. It's not the down command. You physically move the dog into the down position gently, and keep him there for a half hour. When he gets up, he gets moved back into the down. He's never held down...just moved to the down position. It's all about controlling the dog's position and is a very strong dominant act. Chase would try to get back up three or four times in the first five minutes or so, and then once or twice through the course of the half hour. Now, he just takes a nap.
> 
> The long down isn't a brute force, life or death struggle with the dog that the alpha roll is. After a while, it's nothing more than TV time.


I think I may start working with Carson on something like this... I would like to get a fairly reliable down/stay thing going on with him...especially for when people are over at the house and all he wants to do is bug them. I don't mind when he does it to me, but I don't imagine everyone else wants to have him in their face all the time.


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## JimS (Jan 2, 2007)

The long down as used in this context isn't the obedience exercise although I think it probably helps quite a bit. Rather, it serves the same function as the alpha roll...establishing dominance. Wendy Volhard does a better job of describing it than I ever could. Here's a bit from their website about it:



> The purpose of the long down is to restrict the dog’s movement by keeping him or her in place, thereby convincing the dog that the owner is the pack leader and the one in charge. Of course, there are other ways to convince a dog that the owner is pack leader. Still, I like the long down best because it is non violent and non-confrontational, and almost anyone can do it successfully. And even more important, it is something the dog immediately understands, which does not mean he or she will immediately accept the owner as pack leader.
> 
> When I had gotten this far in my explanation someone in the audience asked "So what’s so important about being pack leader?" "Good question," I said. "The answer is that it is a lot easier to train a dog who accepts you as pack leader than one who thinks he or she is pack leader. The dog who thinks he or she is pack leader does what it wants to do and not necessarily what you want him or her to do."
> 
> ...


There's quite a bit more here: Volhard: Training Articles by Wendy Volhard


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

I used many things, depending on the dog. With some, it's a voice command, and that will do it.

With others, it's physically putting myself OVER and in front of the offender. I block their movements. Along with that, it's my tone and manner. They're made to go elsewhere...on their own...and stay put. The "look at me command" works well for this. And the "leave it" command.

With yet others, it's the long down stay, and when I say down, they know I mean stay there until I say it's okay.

The most difficult, of course, is if a fight breaks out and I'm not there to stop it before it happens. Then I go into the breaking it up mode....without getting myself bitten. Once again, the less screaming and hysteria, the better it works out. Of course that's difficult......but it does tend to diffuse things more quickly.

In our household, it's taken us ages to figure out how to handle these things effectively. But the key is the dogs involved. Knowing them, what works for them, and knowing what makes matters worse. They're all a bit different, but they all are very clear about who's in charge around here.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I think I use the body bump a lot. I never knew it was a tool. It just works.


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

This seems to be truning into a debate about whose methods work for whom... 

I am just simply stating that the methods we use work for US, have worked for us with not only our dogs but the MANY aggressive dogs we work with in our rescue...We get all the aggressive cases to rehabilatete them... And this method does work when you have a dog that wants to kill another.... So... I want people to use what will WORKS for THEM and I was just letting them know what works for US...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I won't say never, but I would say almost never. I would say I will never suggest it to anyone.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> This seems to be truning into a debate about whose methods work for whom..


Kerribear....I was just responding to the question you asked me, below:



> Please share with us what other metods work for you?
> The more we share the more people know and can use what works for them!!


Perhaps others felt that you'd like for us all to share?

Granted everyone does what works for them. And what works for "that" dog. Some things works....some things don't work.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

kerribear's golden kids said:


> This seems to be truning into a debate about whose methods work for whom...
> 
> I am just simply stating that the methods we use work for US, have worked for us with not only our dogs but the MANY aggressive dogs we work with in our rescue...We get all the aggressive cases to rehabilatete them... And this method does work when you have a dog that wants to kill another.... So... I want people to use what will WORKS for THEM and I was just letting them know what works for US...


You have experience using this method, Kerri. If it works for you, then use it, and if saves a dog's life and rehabilitates the dog...

A debate isn't a bad thing. If people do not agree on the method you use, that does not make you a bad person. They just have different views. 

I'm hoping this thread will educate. A person should research all the pros and cons to ALL suggested methods, then make an educated decision on the technique they chose to use.


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

I don't feel confident that I know how to do the alpha roll correctly. My own dogs listen to me and I don't feel a need for that type of correction. With new fosters, it is extremely important that I establish myself as the leader in the home before I introduce them to my dogs...some come from kennel situations where there is a very strong pack mentality. Typically, Nothing In Life is Free and a few basic training commands set me up as the authority figure. I saw a show with Ceasar Milan, not sure if he referred to the correction as an alpha roll or not, but it was quite impressive and in no time whatsoever, he had snarly, biting dog completely under control. I would love to have his skill!

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Nothing wrong with a good debate 

I'm happy I have never needed to use an alpha roll type correction with Daisy. I'm not sure I would be very good at it. Mad dogs scare me!!

I am very interested to see how Daisy would do in that long down position, if she would challenge my leadership. I'll have to try that.

The alpha position is very subtle in our relationship. We give and take depending on whatever. Sometimes she leads the walk, sometimes she's beside me, it depends on what's in our environment. Sometimes she's the first out the door, sometimes I am. Sometimes she listens, sometimes she doesn't : But she's almost 7 years old, she's alive and well, so my leadership is evident, yes?


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## Old Gold Mum2001 (Feb 25, 2007)

Kimm said:


> I'm not saying I'm for it or against it, but how do you feel about using the alpha roll as a technique?
> 
> I would suggest before people use this technique, or any technique for that matter, to do some research and really know what you are doing before you chose one.


Heard it should only be done as a last resort, and has to be precise, or it could make things worse, possibly hurt dog.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

My dogs and I are trusted, bonded, loving equals... I respect them, and they respect me- because they trust me, and I trust them. Not because they think I'll kick their asses if they don't. Personally, that's the type of relationship I want to have with my companions. I always joke I'm the alpha bitch of the house- and, sure, they respect me- because I have proven myself trustworthy and confident- not because I am violent and dominating.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I sent this to someone privately, and I'll share some of that message here:

I will never and would NEVER suggest anyone should do this to a dog. It causes extreme stress and can damage your bond with your dog for life. It is also a fantastic way to get bitten. 

It does teach your dog- it teaches him that you're an unpredictable and violent figure who randomly attacks him. Not something I want my dogs to learn, personally.

Suggesting this on a forum is so horribly risky. It might work for a skilled handler in some situations, but it might backfire in tragic ways.


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## Old Gold Mum2001 (Feb 25, 2007)

Kimm said:


> I think I use the body bump a lot. I never knew it was a tool. It just works.


LOL, bump here too.


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## Old Gold Mum2001 (Feb 25, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> My dogs and I are trusted, bonded, loving equals... I respect them, and they respect me- because they trust me, and I trust them. Not because they think I'll kick their asses if they don't. Personally, that's the type of relationship I want to have with my companions. I always joke I'm the alpha bitch of the house- and, sure, they respect me- because I have proven myself trustworthy and confident- not because I am violent and dominating.


Like the way you said that!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I will never and would NEVER suggest anyone should do this to a dog. It causes extreme stress and can damage your bond with your dog for life. It is also a fantastic way to get bitten.
> 
> _*It does teach your dog- it teaches him that you're an unpredictable and violent figure who randomly attacks him.*_ Not something I want my dogs to learn, personally.


Very well said!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

The Alpha didn't work for me. He just saw me as a puppy playmate. The leash and the crate was my "alpha roll"

But I know that it does work for some people. It is good we have options.


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## Penny'smom (Mar 3, 2007)

I tried it once on Penny when she was quite young. She instantly went from being a playful little terror to being frightened and defensive. Her mouthing turned to serious biting and struggling to be free.

I find too that becoming respected equals works the best. Now that she's almost 6 and pretty well trained, all I have to do is point my finger and say "Enough" in a no nonsense voice (not yelling) and tell her "go lay down". She's not a submissive dog and never will be. We've learned the boundaries we can both live with happily.

I worry about extreme techniques being used on the wrong dog if there are 2 or more involved in the problem. It's take a very experienced dog trainer to read the dogs body language and know who need discipline and who doesn't. It often is not as it appears.

The usual techniques work with most dogs if delivered with authority and leadership. No need to treat a Golden like a fighting breed, they are too sensitive and smart.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

My opinion on the Alpha roll is wolfs do infact do a roll on there own kind, but it is not done as many have explained it that I have seen, nor the reasons. Kimm is right, the Monks of New Skeet did address this in there newer book, reason being it can be very, very dangerous done by an amatuer as well as newer research came out and it was not as they had said it was prior too there newer book out. Basically, it was a mistake on there part.

My Goldie and my Labby give me the Alpha roll daily, they just love them darn belly rubs...lol

Here is some of the information I dug up on at an earlier time to help explain it.

The early researchers saw this behavior and concluded that the higher-ranking wolf was forcibly rolling the subordinate to exert his dominance. Well, not exactly. This is actually an "appeasement ritual" instigated by the SUBORDINATE wolf. The subordinate offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf "pins" it, the lower-ranking wolf voluntarily rolls and presents his belly. There is NO force. It is all entirely voluntary.

A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. 

The Alpha roll is not done by flipping, and so many yet believe it to be. A correct way of doing it is as CM does it.

It is NOT something I do, if I felt it ever needed to be done I'd higher a professional! I would NOT recommend anyone do this unless you are a trained professional in this area.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Many resources agree with this ~ the lower-ranking wolf voluntarily rolls and presents his belly. There is NO force. It is all entirely voluntary.


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