# 16 week puppy with Heart Murmur. Family very upset



## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

My first step would be to take him to a cardiologist. Puppies can grow out of heart murmurs, but if it is grade III/VI then I would go to the specialist to get their opinion.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

If you don't want to return the puppy, you need to see a veterinary cardiologist. At 16 weeks, it is less probable that it is an innocent puppy murmur, as that is usually gone by 16 weeks. It could still be an innocent murmur, it could be SAS or it could be a different kind of heart murmur. Until the cardiologist can see him and make a diagnosis, it is really hard to say, and the prognosis can vary tremendously.

Have you contacted the breeder yet? What did they say? Did you ask if they would refund all or a portion of his cost, or at least pick up the cost of the diagnosis and go from there?

At 15 weeks, he should have seen a vet at least once and that vet should have picked up on a Grade 3 murmur. Were the parents cleared by a veterinary cardiologist before breeding? Not a guarantee but often if there are problems, they are less serious.

Guarantees that require the return of the puppy are the same as no guarantee at all, as far as I am concerned. Most people feel just as you do, and so won't return the puppy and the breeder doesn't have to do anything 

Is this a responsible breeder, a reputable one? If so, they should work with you to do what is best for you and the puppy. If not, are you sure you want another puppy from them?


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## Wagners Mom2 (Mar 20, 2012)

My Wagner had a heart murmur when he was a baby,.....but he outgrew it by the time he was 6-8 months old. I honestly can't remember the grade now as it was almost 10 years ago.

I agree a cardiologist would be my next step.

Best of luck with your decisions and to Lucky.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Even though it is a very serious diagnosis, there are a couple goldens here that live very normal lives with higher stage heart murmurs. Not sure what I would do.

Do a search on a member called marshab1 and her dog Tinkerbell. They were advised at a few months old to put Tinkerbell down because her heart murmur was so bad. I have not seen her post here recently, but I have seen her post on facebook. Tinkerbell is now almost 6 years old! She looks and acts like any other golden. I do know they take precautions and work with a cardiologist.


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## LovingBella (Oct 31, 2011)

I'm so sorry that you are going through this with your new puppy. I have no advice to offer, but I will keep Lucky and your family in my thoughts.


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## jj224 (Jul 6, 2008)

Tahnee GR said:


> Have you contacted the breeder yet? What did they say? Did you ask if they would refund all or a portion of his cost, or at least pick up the cost of the diagnosis and go from there?
> 
> At 15 weeks, he should have seen a vet at least once and that vet should have picked up on a Grade 3 murmur. Were the parents cleared by a veterinary cardiologist before breeding? Not a guarantee but often if there are problems, they are less serious.
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

cubbysan said:


> Even though it is a very serious diagnosis, there are a couple goldens here that live very normal lives with higher stage heart murmurs. Not sure what I would do.
> 
> Do a search on a member called marshab1 and her dog Tinkerbell. They were advised at a few months old to put Tinkerbell down because her heart murmur was so bad. I have not seen her post here recently, but I have seen her post on facebook. Tinkerbell is now almost 6 years old! She looks and acts like any other golden. I do know they take precautions and work with a cardiologist.


...and Maggie's Mom too, her boy Cruiser has a heart murmur and lives a totally normal happy life. GRRNT has a permanent foster who was diagnosed with a serious heart problem when he was around a 1 year old, the specialist said he would not live another year. He is 11 now and enjoyed his last 10 years fully, only now is he slowing down in energy level.

Heart murmurs can go away, they can be managed with medication, and sometimes they just don't stop the dog from having a good life. 

See the heart specialist before making any decisions.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

I know this is a hard decision. Once a puppy has gotten into your heart, you don't want to give them up. You look at athat sweet face and wonder what will become of it if you return it, and you also look at your kids and know the heart break if they lose it early.

I agree to have a specialist look at it and see what he thinks. Other have mentioned heart dogs here that hav elived long beyohnd what they were suppose to. They hae dogs with heart damage out living some goldens tht come down with cancer at 2-4 years of age. You just neer know.


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## jj224 (Jul 6, 2008)

I just read as many posts as I could find about others dogs on this site with heart murmurs. Clearly I fit the profile of, maybe appropriately, but never the less, overreacting new parent. Without a doubt he will be getting a second opinion tomorrow morning and then scheduled for the Ultra Sound. It seems more and more likely that, he will be fine and less and less likely that he has a severe heart condition, that is going to take him away too soon. 

BTW he is turns 17 weeks old tomorrow. Fingers crossed that this will all go away!


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## HolDaisy (Jan 10, 2012)

Hi there,
Really sorry you're going through this with your puppy.

We have a rottie that we bred that was born with a heart murmur. The person that purchased her returned her because of this, we took her back and decided to keep her. She outgrew the murmur (at about 4/5 months old we think, can't remember exactly though), and is now 9 extremely fit, strong and like a youngster! Hopefully your little one will outgrow this, and if not I'm sure he'll still be able to live a normal and happy life.

Good luck with your further testing anyway and keep us posted :crossfing


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

My first APBT had a grade 3 heart murmur. Mikado couldnt be as active as the other dogs he did run and play just not as long. He was a special dog. I dont know how old your cildren are but I ws raised and raised my son that not every one lives along time. Some are only here to walk a short path with us. We love them and they take a part of our heart but because we loved them and they loved us we go on and we give that love to another. I dont want to tell you how to raise your children but death is a part of life.


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## alifoo (Aug 17, 2011)

I am so sorry to hear that about your pup!
My old lab was 6 months when the vet first noticed her grade 4 heart murmur (that had never been noticed/present at all before). After seeing a cardiologist she was diagnosed with subaortic stenosis. She had to take a pill twice a day to regulate her heartbeat. She gradually started becoming more easily worn out, but she still played, swam, retrieved, hiked, ran, etc. She ultimately died young from some unrelated kidney disease, but until she died her heart condition never grew worse. The silver lining of the disease was that she never knew she was sick or suffered with the disease. Other than resting often and taking a pill twice a day, you'd never know she was sick. 
You really need to take your pup to a cardiologist. If he needs daily medication for a heart condition, it's better for him to start taking it before it gets any worse. Good luck!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

jj224 said:


> I just read as many posts as I could find about others dogs on this site with heart murmurs. Clearly I fit the profile of, maybe appropriately, but never the less, overreacting new parent. Without a doubt he will be getting a second opinion tomorrow morning and then scheduled for the Ultra Sound. It seems more and more likely that, he will be fine and less and less likely that he has a severe heart condition, that is going to take him away too soon.
> 
> BTW he is turns 17 weeks old tomorrow. Fingers crossed that this will all go away!


I'm glad the posts on the board have helped. There is so much good information here, and really great people to talk to. We will all send good thoughts for positive news from the exams.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

A cardiologist will be the way to go. My youngest golden, who is 5 now, had SAS and PDA when he came to me as a 5 month old foster. He was turned over to a shelter by his owners, who I think realized how expensive his care would be. His SAS was 5+. With the surgery to correct the PDA (that the rescue paid for), his SAS dropped to a 1 and we were told to expect him to live a full, healthy life. Other than graying early, nobody would have a clue that he wasn't still a year old! 

I would never return him to the store and hope you will never purchase another pet store puppy. Your first one might have been an exceptional dog, but the puppy mills that crank out these puppies are making the big bucks and treat their dogs like total crap. They don't care about how healthy or sickly their dogs or puppies are as long as they get paid for them.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I just wanted to send hugs and prayers that tomorrow's vet visit confirms your best hopes. I'll be thinking about you all day.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

I hope you get a more positive outcome tomorrow! I will keep you in my thoughts!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

First of all the disease everyone dreads is sub aortic stenosis. It is hereditary, not congenital, so puppies can develop a murmur over time. Innocent murmurs are usually gone by four months. A grade III murmur is not usually considered "innocent". That is a loud heart murmur(they are graded from I to VI). A cardiologist is in order to categorize the murmur... I personally know of one golden with a Grade III murmur diagnosed with mild SAS at 8 weeks who is alive and well at eight years. I work with someone whose dog had moderate to severe SAS, who had no heart issues until he died from hemangiosarcoma at 8.5 years. Chances are if this dog is from a pet store, there are no clearances in the parents or the previous generations.


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## Aislinn (Nov 13, 2010)

I'm so sorry this happened to you. I would see what the cardiologist says about his heart and make sure you sit down with the children and explain whatever choice you make on their level so they understand.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

This is not the same, but m,y KayCee had an enlarged heart chamber. It was found when she was about 5. She wa sput on a low dosage blood pressure pill (same one my hubby takes, only 1/4 the strength of his), one a day, and a baby asprin every other day. I did lose her at 8 yrs and 9 months, but to cancer, no her heart.


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## jj224 (Jul 6, 2008)

On my way to get second opinion and more information. They have to call in the cardiologist, so no ultra sound today, but hopefully this vet will be more knowledgeable.


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

I hope you get some answers from the cardiologist. Our Asia, who came from a reputable breeder had an innocent murmer that she grew out of but then it was detected again about 2 years ago and was about a grade 3 .She is 7 years old. She has no symptoms and an ultrasound did not detect anything structurally wrong with her heart. I believe that she is one of those dogs that lives a long and healthy life despite the murmer.Our vet is perplexed as the murmer seems to be heard at times and then not the next time. She is a bit of a mystery apparantly I don't envy the decision you have to make. Keep us posted.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Jj*

JJ

Praying for your puppy!


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Praying you and your family and Lucky! Hope you get some good news.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

I have no words of wisdom to offer since I have not had any experience with heart murmurs, but I wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you and your pup. I hope you get some answers today.

Keep us posted, we're all pulling for Lucky.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Joanne & Asia said:


> I hope you get some answers from the cardiologist. Our Asia, who came from a reputable breeder had an innocent murmer that she grew out of but then it was detected again about 2 years ago and was about a grade 3 .She is 7 years old. She has no symptoms and an ultrasound did not detect anything structurally wrong with her heart. I believe that she is one of those dogs that lives a long and healthy life despite the murmer.Our vet is perplexed as the murmer seems to be heard at times and then not the next time. She is a bit of a mystery apparantly I don't envy the decision you have to make. Keep us posted.


 
In people this happens. My daughter was born with an innocent heart murmur, some doctors and nurses could hear it, others couldn't. Sometimes they had to have her bend in such a way. Finally I had a cardiologist give her an EKG, and she is fine.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Sending good thoughts your way!!!


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## jj224 (Jul 6, 2008)

Today wasn't with the cardiologist, it was just a second opinion. He confirmed the previous preliminary diagnosis. We then went back by the pet store and talked to the owner in person. Here are my possible options that I discussed with the owner, will know for sure this afternoon or tomorrow.

Full refund. About $1000.00, No dog.

Full refund and we keep the dog.We pay any expenses that may happen. 

The store pays for the cost of the diagnosis with the cardiologist and we keep the dog and pay any further expenses. 

We keep the puppy and get another puppy for free.

Those are my choices.

As of right now the dog is back with the pet store, waiting to hear confirmation from the store's insurance, before we move any further.

I would be ok with getting a replacement puppy, but wife is not ready. Still crying about Lucky.

I would be okay with getting the money back and keeping the puppy and dealing with the expenses as they come. Letting him enjoy whatever life he has.

This sucks. I feel like I have to make a decision on this beautiful animal without knowing all the possibilities. I saved up for months in order to buy this little boy for our anniversary(which is today by the way) and was a hero for about a week. Now I am the indian giver who had to hurt my beautiful wife on the day that i am suppose to love her the most. 

I hate having to treat this as a business decision but ultimately my family comes first and I can't incur anything more than reasonable vet expenses right now...... 

Even if they give me the money back, I'm not sure we are the best people to care for him in the event the cardiologist says he needs major surgery or gives him a short life expectancy. I just don't have the money.....


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm so sorry you are mired in this no-win situation. 

If you end up returning him permanently, please ask the store if they will contact Golden rescue groups to see if they will take him, rather than the store selling him again or taking any other action.

You can provide them contact for the local rescue groups from the Golden Retriever Club of America rescue list here:

National Rescue Committee of the Golden Retriever Club of America



(I would be very hesitant to get a replacement puppy from this store, they very likely could have health problems as well.)


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## Mosby's Mom (Oct 19, 2011)

Did the store say what would happen to him if you gave him back and got a refund/new puppy!?!?!?! I would be so so so so so so so worried that they would euthanize him  Maybe, if you decide that you are not the right home for this little boy, you can get your refund and talk to a Golden Rescue about taking the pup?


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Prayers going your way that you make the correct decision for what is best for everyone.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Some golden rescues will place him in a permanent foster home, and take care of all the necessary medical bills.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Mosby's Mom said:


> Did the store say what would happen to him if you gave him back and got a refund/new puppy!?!?!?! I would be so so so so so so so worried that they would euthanize him  Maybe, if you decide that you are not the right home for this little boy, you can get your refund and talk to a Golden Rescue about taking the pup?


This would be a very good choice, get your refund and if his condition will require expensive treatment ask a rescue group to take him. That way you get to decide what happens to him.


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## jj224 (Jul 6, 2008)

We have decided to keep Lucky. We will get a refund of our money and pay the cost of the cardiologist out if pocket. I basically have 1200$ to pay for his medical expenses now, as the puppy didn't cost anything. He has an appointment on monday win cardiologist and we will ho from there.


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## Mosby's Mom (Oct 19, 2011)

jj224 said:


> We have decided to keep Lucky. We will get a refund of our money and pay the cost of the cardiologist out if pocket. I basically have 1200$ to pay for his medical expenses now, as the puppy didn't cost anything. He has an appointment on monday win cardiologist and we will ho from there.


You must feel better having made the decision  Please keep us informed as to what the cardiologist says!


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

jj224 said:


> We have decided to keep Lucky. We will get a refund of our money and pay the cost of the cardiologist out if pocket. I basically have 1200$ to pay for his medical expenses now, as the puppy didn't cost anything. He has an appointment on monday win cardiologist and we will ho from there.



Praying for some good news at the Cardiologist on Monday. 

I would love to see some photos of Lucky.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I am so happy you made this decision. I often think the "right dog" comes to you for a reason.


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## HolDaisy (Jan 10, 2012)

Really happy you've decided to keep Lucky  Good luck at the cardiologist and keep us posted.


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## davebeech (Feb 11, 2006)

me too !!! fingers crossed it is just something he will grow out of.... best wishes for you all !!!!! oh and make sure you keep us posted




HolDaisy said:


> Really happy you've decided to keep Lucky  Good luck at the cardiologist and keep us posted.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

I am so happy you decided to keep him. Things always happen for a reason! Please keep us updated!


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

OH WOW!!! I think Lucky got his name for a good reason - he landed himself a very special family. Bless your hearts!! Praying that you, your family and Lucky will have many good years together!


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

My Cruiser who is 5 has a grade 3/6 left basilar systolic murmur,has had it since he was 3 months old. The echocardiograph was done at 6 months old and the findings included mild subaortic stenosis(sas) and regurgitation at the aortic valve. His pressure gradients across the stenosis was less than 35mm which is very mild.. He is on No meds and lives a normal life, with my other 3 Golden's.. He has NO restrictions , he runs , swims, etc and by looking at him you would never know he has one. They usually put them on meds when the murmur is a 4 and higher. Make sure your dog doesnt become overweight, as it causes extra work for the heart. Besides meds I dont think there is other treatments . Im glad you have decided to keep Lucky.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Jj*

JJ

So glad that you and your wife are keeping Lucky-Happy Anniversary-I am sure she will always remember this!
Praying for Lucky and Monday!!
I, TOO, would have been so afraid what the store would have done to Lucky!


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## alifoo (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm glad y'all are keeping him! When my pup had heart issues, I realized I had to give her the best life I could even if it was a short life. And, she gave me a better outlook on life. This pup was lucky to end up with people like you and your family who are going to stick it out with him. Best of luck at the cardiologist, and happy anniversary!


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## jj224 (Jul 6, 2008)

Picture of Lucky. Thanks, for the nice wishes. My wife said thank you also. Will let ya'll know what happens.


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## LovingBella (Oct 31, 2011)

Such a beautiful puppy! Precious! Happy Anniversary... enjoy this special day.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Lucky is just precious. I'm glad to read you've decided to keep him-sending you healing thoughts and saying many prayers for this little one.

Happy Anniversary to you both, try to enjoy your special day.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Give that Lucky puppy a hug for me! He is absolutely adorable.


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## GoldenMum (Mar 15, 2010)

What wonderful folks you guys are to keep Lucky, I too think things happen for a reason. I think Lucky was meant to be with you! HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!!!!!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I purchased a beautiful show puppy who my vet found to have a grade IV/V murmur, and that is the one and only golden I did return. The waterfall sound of the heart was so very sorrowful. I am not sure what I would have done with a III, probably stuck with him, and it is very loving of you to keep the pup.


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## PrincessDi (Jun 8, 2009)

What a beautiful puppy! Totally understand how Lucky wrapped his paws around your heart!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

jj224 said:


> We have decided to keep Lucky. We will get a refund of our money and pay the cost of the cardiologist out if pocket. I basically have 1200$ to pay for his medical expenses now, as the puppy didn't cost anything. He has an appointment on monday win cardiologist and we will ho from there.


 
He is indeed a Lucky boy. I hope you get positive news from the specialist.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

What a beautiful boy. He reminds me a lot of our first golden, Scooter when he was that age. I am so glad you decided to keep him. He deserves a ahnace at a happy life, being loved and giving all the love he has in his heart for your family. Hoping and praying for good news.


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## 3kids (Sep 25, 2012)

Our little Millie was recently diagnosed with a level 5 heart murmur. She had the echo and confirmed our worst fears of a subaortic stenosis. They gave her up to 3 years. Does anyone have any advice for us to keep her around with us as long as possible. Is cold weather just as dangerous as the hot weather? What else can I do? I am so devastated!


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

all i can tell you is that a friend of mines dog has a grade 6 murmur.... she was told that she would be lucky to make it to her 2nd birthday... she turns 11 in a couple weeks.... you just never know... they can fool you


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

I'm so happy that you all decided to keep Lucky! ....his name is very fitting...and I hope it continues to be!


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## kjohnstone82 (Sep 24, 2012)

Im so glad you have decided to keep Lucky and I hope he lives up to his name and everything works out great. My cocker spaniel has a heart murmour but fortunately not that serious in the scheme of heart murmours she lives a normal life and i am very thankful for that. Good luck with Lucky!


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

3kids said:


> Our little Millie was recently diagnosed with a level 5 heart murmur. She had the echo and confirmed our worst fears of a subaortic stenosis. They gave her up to 3 years. Does anyone have any advice for us to keep her around with us as long as possible. Is cold weather just as dangerous as the hot weather? What else can I do? I am so devastated!


You might want to start your own thread on the subject because this one is from April and people are responding to the original poster.


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

3kids said:


> Our little Millie was recently diagnosed with a level 5 heart murmur. She had the echo and confirmed our worst fears of a subaortic stenosis. They gave her up to 3 years. Does anyone have any advice for us to keep her around with us as long as possible. Is cold weather just as dangerous as the hot weather? What else can I do? I am so devastated!


I am so sorry. Do you have a cardiologist? Are you in driving distance of a Veterinary Teaching Hospital?


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

3kids said:


> Our little Millie was recently diagnosed with a level 5 heart murmur. She had the echo and confirmed our worst fears of a subaortic stenosis. They gave her up to 3 years. Does anyone have any advice for us to keep her around with us as long as possible. Is cold weather just as dangerous as the hot weather? What else can I do? I am so devastated!


Each dog is very different. I had a foster dog , that was 8 weeks when we found out he had a grade 5/5 murmur. Took him to a cardiologist, they did all the test, put him on heart meds and said let him be a dog... They said he would be lucky to make his 1st birthday..... He didnt he was 11 months old when he passed. We had another dog come in to rescue and hers was a grade 6, they said this was one of the worse murmurs they had ever seen, they cant believe she is still alive at the age of 6.


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## ktaylor320 (Jul 15, 2015)

*17 week puppy with heart murmur*

Hello all,
I recently acquired a golden from some individuals who were unable to care for him properly. I am quite certain that the breeder was a BYB, but I don't have much information, as this poor pup has been shifted around quite a bit. I took him to the vet for his first wellness checkup at 12 weeks, and all was good! This past weekend, he started acting lethargic and was having diarrhea so I took him in again. The office was very busy, and they took him back without me with him and did all the physical examination. They then brought him out, saying his intestinal screening was clear, but that they checked his heart and he had a grade 3-4 heart murmur, and that I needed to get an ECG. I am new at this, as this is the first dog I will have away from my parents, but I am just trying to see what I can do for my sweet pup. I am taking him for a second opinion, as the fact that they didn't hear anything just three weeks ago and now all of a sudden its a grade three to four seems suspicious. 

Any thoughts on how to best care for my golden? I am freaking out.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

I don't have any experience but I'm sorry you're going through this. I hope someone weighs in who has experience...,


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

ktaylor320 said:


> Hello all,
> I recently acquired a golden from some individuals who were unable to care for him properly. I am quite certain that the breeder was a BYB, but I don't have much information, as this poor pup has been shifted around quite a bit. I took him to the vet for his first wellness checkup at 12 weeks, and all was good! This past weekend, he started acting lethargic and was having diarrhea so I took him in again. The office was very busy, and they took him back without me with him and did all the physical examination. They then brought him out, saying his intestinal screening was clear, but that they checked his heart and he had a grade 3-4 heart murmur, and that I needed to get an ECG. I am new at this, as this is the first dog I will have away from my parents, but I am just trying to see what I can do for my sweet pup. I am taking him for a second opinion, as the fact that they didn't hear anything just three weeks ago and now all of a sudden its a grade three to four seems suspicious.
> 
> Any thoughts on how to best care for my golden? I am freaking out.


I would definitely get a second opinion. A lot of times, when there is an innocent heart murmur, it will become more pronounced when a dog (or child) is ill.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Given his age, I would go to a cardiologist. If it's nothing, no harm, no foul. If there is a murmur, you'd have to see a cardiologist any way.

Most innocent murmurs are out grown by about 16 weeks.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

There's no way to know how to feel about this without seeing a cardiologist. 4 and 5 sound like waterfalls and are really worrisome, but what some regular vets call a 3 is going to be livable for you. I am really sorry though- not fun news to receive. I have been in those shoes with a 4/5 and it was a shock.


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

ktaylor320 said:


> Hello all,
> I recently acquired a golden from some individuals who were unable to care for him properly. I am quite certain that the breeder was a BYB, but I don't have much information, as this poor pup has been shifted around quite a bit. I took him to the vet for his first wellness checkup at 12 weeks, and all was good! This past weekend, he started acting lethargic and was having diarrhea so I took him in again. The office was very busy, and they took him back without me with him and did all the physical examination. They then brought him out, saying his intestinal screening was clear, but that they checked his heart and he had a grade 3-4 heart murmur, and that I needed to get an ECG. I am new at this, as this is the first dog I will have away from my parents, but I am just trying to see what I can do for my sweet pup. I am taking him for a second opinion, as the fact that they didn't hear anything just three weeks ago and now all of a sudden its a grade three to four seems suspicious.
> 
> Any thoughts on how to best care for my golden? I am freaking out.


To know if he really has a heart murmur and what grade it is, you need to make an appointment with a board-certified veterinary cardiologist.
Here is a link that will help you locate one unless your vet provided you with a recommendation.

http://www.acvim.org/AnimalOwners/FindaSpecialist.aspx

I'm a little surprised that your regular vet would even attempt to tell you a grade so I wouldn't put too much stock in the grade number just yet. It's not really at all suspicious that his murmur wasn't detected on an earlier exam. A panting excitable puppy makes it hard to detect a murmur. Also it sometimes depends on how the dog is positioned with how detectable the whoosh (murmur) is. 

The good news is that treatments have come a long way. My Golden who had a life-threatening heart murmur as a puppy just celebrated his 10th birthday. He even had a new heart problem develop about 6 months ago and the medicine he was put on has the new problem under control. And you would not know there is anything wrong to look at him. He has a fantastic cardiologist who has watched over Chance's health since he was 7 months old. 

Just take one step at a time and let us know how you make out. And don't worry. Your little guy will do better if you don't worry. Let us know how you make out.


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## matttdamonnn (Mar 30, 2016)

Can I ask what ever happened with your puppy? I have a golden puppy who has the exact same problem/grade at 8 weeks...did your pup pull through?


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

Bumping up - hopefully you will get an answer. Have you been to the cardiologist?


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

matttdamonnn said:


> Can I ask what ever happened with your puppy? I have a golden puppy who has the exact same problem/grade at 8 weeks...did your pup pull through?


I'm sorry to hear about your pup. 

I would get a second opinion, your Breeder may want you to take your pup to a certain Vet. 

You could see if you can get your pup into the NCSU Vet School or get a referral for this clinic, they have three locations, Raleigh, Cary and in Durham. Here's the link for the Cardiology Services-


Cardiology - Veterinary Specialty Hospital of the Carolinas


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I wouldn't trust a practitioner to grade a puppy murmur. You should go to a cardiologist- auscultation alone there should cost you around $50-60. An ultrasound after 16 weeks might be indicated. 
If it is SAS, your dog may be on beta blockers all it's life, they are cheap and can be bought a any drug store with prescription,
and the dog may live a short life or a long life- it's hard to predict.


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## vensyd (May 4, 2017)

We got a Golden Retriever puppy with age of 8 weeks from a registered breeder. He is very active and cute and is very much attached to the family members. He is now 16 weeks. During his last vaccination which we had on 29/04/2017 Vet detected that puppy got some sought Heart murmur which was very soft and recommended to see Cardiologist for further investigation and recommendation.

Yesterday (03/05/2017) we been to SASH to see the Cardiologist. She did the echo-cardiogram and here results are as below:

On Examination today Puppy was bright and alert. His heart rate was 100 beats/minute and regular. He had a grade 4/6 heart murmur heard best on the left side of the chest.

The echo-cardiogram (heart ultrasound) says "there was a ridge of tissue just below the aortic valve which was causing a narrowing in this region. The blood flow through this narrowed region was turbulent and the speed was increased. These findings are consistent with a diagnosis of Sub-aortic stenosis which is a hereditary disease. He has moderate disease at this time however, as the severity of disease usually progresses in the first year of life, another assessment is recommended at 10-12 months of age before the severity is actually determined.

Unfortunately, thee is no surgical treatment option for this disease. The average survival in dogs with severe disease is 3 years, which can be increased to 5 years with medication. These dogs usually die suddenly due to ventricular arrhythmia. They are also at increased risk of infection of the damaged heart valve and should be treated with antibiotics prior to any surgical or traumatic procedures.

Cardiologist also advised to inform the breeder about the case.

On talking to the breeder, she say's puppy is still small and this is normal in most of the case and will disappear as it grows older (within a year). Also she mentioned that the parents of the puppy were all clear from Heart issue and none of her puppy has this issue.

I got Premium Insurance from RSPCA from day 1 I got the puppy, but not sure if they will cover the expense saying its pre-existing issue.

Whole family is bit stressed and we don't want to loose him.

Need some advise what should i do further to keep him healthy? or return it breeder or should I got for another second opinion. And how are SASH rated?

Thanks for you advise in advance.


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## tikiandme (May 16, 2010)

I am so sorry about your puppy. If I were you I would start your own thread separately from this one and you should get some responses. Also if you do a search using the key word heart murmur within the forum, you should find some information. Wishing you all the best....


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

Your breeder is not correct. There are innocent murmurs that go away but the echo showed there is a problem so if it is SAS, the murmur will not disappear. Is SASH the name (acronym) of the hospital? Unless you have reservations about the cardiologist, I probably wouldn't seek out another cardiologist yet. But if you want to check out veterinary cardiologists in your area, you can use this ACVIM link to enter your location, and it will list ACVIM certified veterinary cardiologists near to your location.

Veterinary Specialists | Find a Board Certified Veterinary Specialist Near You

Returning your puppy to the breeder will not end well for your puppy. Your breeder's reaction was not good. He/she should have requested you to share the puppy's medical diagnosis and shown open-mindedness to the possibility that there is a hereditary problem. It doesn't sound like that was the reaction you got.
There are definitely medications for arrhythmias. My Golden is on Sotalol for ventricular tachycardia and the medication is controlling his arrhythmias quite effectively. There are great advances that have been made in canine heart diseases and you have an advantage in that your primary vet referred you to the cardiologist and the problem has been caught early.
Please keep us posted and possibly, as suggested, start your own thread in the GR Health, Anatomy, Physiology Forum.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

vensyd said:


> We got a Golden Retriever puppy with age of 8 weeks from a registered breeder. He is very active and cute and is very much attached to the family members. He is now 16 weeks. During his last vaccination which we had on 29/04/2017 Vet detected that puppy got some sought Heart murmur which was very soft and recommended to see Cardiologist for further investigation and recommendation.
> 
> Yesterday (03/05/2017) we been to SASH to see the Cardiologist. She did the echo-cardiogram and here results are as below:
> 
> ...


Your breeder is wrong. The puppy has SAS- they do not outgrow it, in fact, it typically gets worse. Whether the parents have echo clearances or not is unknown but even if they do, SAS can skip a generation. I'd bet your pedigree clearance-wise has cardiac holes in it, by way of either missing cardiac clearances or practitioner clearances. If you post the sire and dam names someone will check that for you. I'm sorry. There're meds (beta blockers usually) that are inexpensive and can extend his life, but SAS is a sudden death. There's no reason for a second opinion- the numbers are the numbers of the pressures on either side of the tissue that is the stenosis. unfortunately, if your breeder believes this will resolve, she will probably sell the puppy to someone else. Were it me, I would reimburse you for the puppy and for the echo and you steel your heart for the inevitable. I think that's reasonable from a breeder's standpoint.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

You need to get a prognosis from the cardiologist, and make a decision on whether you can accept raising and loving a puppy that may very well have a short life span. 

As far as helping him to be healthy, with this diagnoses you should be getting advise from the vet.

I think other posters are correct, if you return the puppy this breeder will only sell him again and very likely not tell the new owners about his heart condition.


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## Pilgrim123 (Jul 26, 2014)

Vensyd, the RSPCA should cover the heart problems, as long as he didn't show signs of a problem when you took out cover or in the first 30 days after that. Can you please post your dog's stud name - the one on his papers you got from the breeders - so we can check the clearances? I'd be interested to see what his heritage is.


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