# missing molars



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Based on which teeth are missing - this is primarily genetic. 

If there had been an injury causing damage to the developing teeth - it's possible that they are somewhere in the jaw, but dislodged/fractured/deformed/impacted. 

However the premolars, from what I've been told are those that typically are missing if the teeth are truly missing. <= And verified by xrays.

As far as how "bad" it is - it probably will not affect your dog at all.


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

so annoying when you pay so much for a furbaby...Probably no need to xray unless there appears to be jaw problems?:crying::crying::crying:


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Reason why I mentioned getting it checked to make sure the teeth aren't hiding in the gums/jaw somewhere is cysts could develop in the jaw because my guess the body objects to an impacted tooth sitting there where it shouldn't be. Those cysts could eat away at the jaw and cause a lot of problems. 

If you are neutering your dog at 2 - probably is a good time as any to just have quick xrays done to make sure those teeth are truly missing.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

valking said:


> My one year old golden is missing molars behind lower canines on both sides! has anyone experienced this? All other teeth are in...would this be genetic...she did not have injury or dispemper/parvo...help!! google says may be embedded but you can not feel anything below gum, redness from top teeth touching gum..


Missing premolars are fairly common, particularly in some lines. It won't cause a problem for your dog but you SHOULD check see if they are there via radiographs when you alter her or just find yourself able to get to the vet's.


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

If this is genetic, would you expect breeder to participate in the expense of exploring lack of molars?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

In all honesty, I personally would not. Dogs are not a manufactured good. There is risk to adding any living being to your family. A responsible breeder does their best to produce healthy puppies but they know there are no perfect dogs and weird things they have never seen in their dogs pops out sometimes and are beyond control. My Italian girl is Ichthyosis affected and no, I did not ask her breeder to pay for the testing nor do I fault her in the slightest since testing is not normal in her country. It will also never impact her quality of life or my plans for her so, I figure she is my dog and her care is my responsibility. Missing teeth or extra teeth are generally similar in that if they are missing or extras there is really not going to be an impact on the quality of life and yes it is a know issue in the breed but dogs with full dentition can produce it. 

If one of my buyers approached me about it, I would work something out out privately as there is not guarantee on dentition in my contract.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

As a side note, I have heard of and seen missing teeth in Goldens. I have never personally heard of a Golden needing surgery for impacted teeth. It certainly could happen which is why you are getting the recommendation to check but based on my experience in the breed, missing is the likely cause and has no quality of life impact.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Val King said:


> If this is genetic, would you expect breeder to participate in the expense of exploring lack of molars?


No, premolars are fairly commonly missing.. and it's not something that is easy to track w pedigree, skips generations, etc , and nothing much will come of it problem-wise. 
No breeder would deliberately breed into a dentition problem, but that's the sort of thing that so many dogs finish a CH with that most people never know is something w a stud dog unless they think to ask. There isn't any remedy for missing premolars, you can't put fake ones in!


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Val King said:


> If this is genetic, would you expect breeder to participate in the expense of exploring lack of molars?


Please check your Private Messages, I need a reply to the two I've sent you. 
Thanks!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

How is this affecting the plans for your dog?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

LJack said:


> As a side note, I have heard of and seen missing teeth in Goldens. I have never personally heard of a Golden needing surgery for impacted teeth. It certainly could happen which is why you are getting the recommendation to check but based on my experience in the breed, missing is the likely cause and has no quality of life impact.


^^^ I actually heard of problems stemming from impacted teeth. From other golden people + very BADDDDDD case with a NSDTR who had what originally had been a "missing tooth" but it was there in the jaw and by the time he was almost 3 years old, it became very infected. 

What might have been anywhere between $500-1000 for an extraction ended up being $3000+ for surgery and long term treatment for a dog who had major league infection in the jaw and beginning to spread. 

In this dog's case, it was one of the big molars in back that was missing. 

With the OP's dog's premolars missing on either side, it's a foregone conclusion that they are likely missing and this is a hereditary type issue because those teeth are commonly missing. However because of the above, it's always a good idea to get xrays done to verify.

My vet does check teeth for people when their dogs are brought in to be neutered/spayed. They charge maybe $80 or so for the xrays, but nothing too crazy. 

If you are not going to alter the dog for a couple years and are worried - it would probably cost about $200 to get the xrays done at your regular vet. This is because the dogs need to be sedated. 

Personally speaking - if I were in the OP's shoes, I'd just go to the regular vet. It is unlikely to be a more complicated situation than just xrays and confirming what's going on.

If there is an extraction surgery required... that is what it is. The sooner you get the tooth out, the less you have to worry later. It costs money, but that's vet care and responsible dog ownership. It all costs money. 

Asking the breeder to pay for something like this is not appropriate.

ETA - my youngest little guy (dog on the left in my sig) had a couple crunched up teeth because of an injury (probably playing too rough with the big guys when he was little). Teeth came out, but only partly. They had damaged roots + fractures below the gum. He still will be shown, unknown how successful depending on tooth fairies (but eh - I have paperwork showing he had full dentition). 

Prior to the teeth coming out - I had been in communication already with the specialist because they were very slow growing. He said he sees impacted teeth pretty regularly with goldens and other breeds, particularly for show dogs. Many cases there's a small window they have to do a procedure to help the teeth come out. Basically cutting into the gums so the teeth have easy sailing the rest of the way. If this isn't done, the teeth may never come out and according to the specialist, they become time bombs which can go off at any time.


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

sorry! I wasn't checking but sent explanation...thks


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

So- did you get radiographs done yet? Are the premolars there?


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

well I thought I would change her name to Sally Mae like the Beverly Hillbillies! Seriously, nothing except vet says xrays need dental specialist, anethesia, catheter, bloodwork, so expense is really annoying because I paid so much for her especially to hope for good lineage and healthy life....I already had her spayed so I think I will wait and see....insurance considers it a preexisting condition, breeder not interested in finding out more so.....regardless, she is amazing and besties with my 5 yr old golden so we are good but would definitely not get another dog from Mothers Farm (AKC) Golden Retrievers in Santa Fe, NM....Even referred her buyers for puppies...DON"T USE HER!


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

This is good to know...they suggested specialist in case they are impacted, it's only one sedation instead of two....reg vet wants to refer out...I'll probably go to dental vet to be sure...I just hate unnecessary procdures involving sedation!


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

Side note...perfect for 1 year....only reason I noticed missing teeth is out of the blue she is chewing EVERYTHING up! I think they must be bugging her....glasses, sweaters, tv remotes, rosebushes


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Val King said:


> well I thought I would change her name to Sally Mae like the Beverly Hillbillies! Seriously, nothing except vet says xrays need dental specialist, anethesia, catheter, bloodwork, so expense is really annoying because I paid so much for her especially to hope for good lineage and healthy life....I already had her spayed so I think I will wait and see....insurance considers it a preexisting condition, breeder not interested in finding out more so.....regardless, she is amazing and besties with my 5 yr old golden so we are good but would definitely not get another dog from Mothers Farm (AKC) Golden Retrievers in Santa Fe, NM....Even referred her buyers for puppies...DON"T USE HER!


Holy Crapoly, if this breeder’s current litters are any indication, I would probably be more upset about paying such a high price for a puppy from parents with one or none of the core four health certifications in place. 

Her current litters:
Sire: Mato Luta Of Sacred Springs AKC DNA #V872184 (SR94109604) *NO HEALTH CERTIFICATIONS*
Dam: Chetana Of San Marcos Springs (SR92417101) *NO HEALTH CERTIFICATIONS*

Sire: Y-Rock Sacred Springs Axolotl AKC DNA #V733125 OFA29F (SR72568101) on has hips (fair) missing elbows which are almost always x-rayed and submitted at the same time, so there is a likelihood here he has dysplasia. Missing cardiologist heart certification and annual eye certification. 
Dam: Quality Fowler's Land AKC DNA #V738213 (SR80050801) *NO HEALTH CERTIFICATIONS*

On top of these dismal health certification holes, they are charging an obscene price. For $2500-3000 a buyer could get a puppy for parents with full and verifiable health certifications, with generations of health certifications behind them and parents with actual competitive titles. Reasonably priced these health riskier puppies would be $500-900. Add to that, this person has no qualms making false statements about following the health testing recommended by the GRCA (documented below) and I would absolutely agree this is a breeder to steer clear of. 

Val King, if the dog listed above are not your puppy’s parents and you want to know what if anything they were tested for, just list the parents registration numbers and someone will assist with the research.


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

OMG! Yes, that was my biggest issue is her fraudulant advertising, and after losing several goldens, hoped to invest in good lineage! I hope more problems dont show up!! Thanks so kuch for your research!!! Val


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

your dogs are beautiful!


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

Not seeing my previous posts....thanks to everyone for insight into this potential problem...indeed, it is a huge problem for this little one year old...xrays showed 4-5 missing teeth, another without root, and one embedded and abcessed.. they pulled two more..poor thing only one year old...called breeder to inquire on evidence of parental akc certs...she couldn't provide! very mean and defensive...said she called her attorney for slander...mmmm, why would she do that...I don't think she should be an AKC breeder..has BBB claim against her for nondisclosure of undecended testical of sire she has been breeding for 7 years....oh well, will pick up little girl later today from surgery...hope she recovers quickly...


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

thanks for your persistance....what a big problem for this little one year old! Almost out of surgery..missing 4-5, pulled 2 more...sad! thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Yikes.... so sorry it was that bad! 

But glad you are taking care of it - and saving a TON of money long term.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Val King said:


> Not seeing my previous posts....thanks to everyone for insight into this potential problem...indeed, it is a huge problem for this little one year old...xrays showed 4-5 missing teeth, another without root, and one embedded and abcessed.. they pulled two more..poor thing only one year old...called breeder to inquire on evidence of parental akc certs...she couldn't provide! very mean and defensive...said she called her attorney for slander...mmmm, why would she do that...I don't think she should be an AKC breeder..has BBB claim against her for nondisclosure of undecended testical of sire she has been breeding for 7 years....oh well, will pick up little girl later today from surgery...hope she recovers quickly...


oh my... it's much worse than just missing premolars!!
On that AKC piece though- AKC registration is not a promise of quality. They are a registry, only.
I can't get over that this (is it) Mother's Goldens ?? flat out lied on the ad on AKC. People lie on their websites all the time- but to do it on an ad, that's somewhat different to me. 
Don't worry. It's not slander or libel if it is true. Or even if you believe it is true.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Ok now I have gone to Mothers School and waded through that crazy website- what the heck? Do people send their kids there to learn Vissudi palm reading? Nonetheless- there are no lines of champions out the door and their dogs are certainly not show dogs.. or even show quality if one judges by the photos of them on the site. To charge $3000 + for these puppies is a total ripoff- and I'm sorry but anyone who buys a puppy there must just not have even tried to study Goldens first!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I just can't stop reading it- mother's farm school goldens- they don't even spell 'retriever' correctly... sigh...


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

No kidding....puppy mill! She was such a jerk when I confronted her about the certifications and suddenly she couldn't remember where the paperwork was...must be why she called her attorney..big issue is cancer is already so high even with good breeders...the last thing we need are more dogs not bred well and misrepresented...I agree, NO ONE should buy a dog from her, even at a reduced price!! She is showing two litters on facebook where I immediately posted cute, but breeder does not back lineage! Yeah, she played up the spirituality aspect of breeding....I didn't know tarot cards are part of breeding!!!***! I will continue to pursue her accreditation w AKC..so sad to pick up the little girl dopey from tooth extraction!! Thanks again for insisting on xrays...this forum is amazing and so are you!!!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

where is she posting litters on FB?


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

mothers farm school...


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

www.mothersfarmschoo.,com/akc-puppies.html proudly advertises pedigree papers, shots, and health guarantee...how can you offer that without certs? talked w AKC... they didn't seem to have a problem wih "hobby breeders"...............I certainly do if you can't back what you are selling! Especially at show dog pricing......my mistake was gettin sucked into the "English Creme" European lineage being healthier and less cancers....not sure thats really a thing.... My last Golden died of bladder cancer so I thought this time I would shoot for better blood lines..bad move on my part....I love this dog but hate that she will endure potential dental problems for who know how long or how much..poor little thing! When I figure out how to download pic, I will!


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## SnowRacerBilly (Jan 21, 2020)

Val King said:


> well I thought I would change her name to Sally Mae like the Beverly Hillbillies! Seriously, nothing except vet says xrays need dental specialist, anethesia, catheter, bloodwork, so expense is really annoying because I paid so much for her especially to hope for good lineage and healthy life....I already had her spayed so I think I will wait and see....insurance considers it a preexisting condition, breeder not interested in finding out more so.....regardless, she is amazing and besties with my 5 yr old golden so we are good but would definitely not get another dog from Mothers Farm (AKC) Golden Retrievers in Santa Fe, NM....Even referred her buyers for puppies...DON"T USE HER!


*Just saw your posts. New to this forum, but not to Goldens. Also not new to Mothers Farm. I have previously purchase a Golden from them six years ago and he is my best buddy and has always enjoyed perfect health. I wanted to get my old pal a new friend, so I did not think twice about buying from Mothers Farm. I ended up not being able to pick between two puppies, so I both them both. They are now almost a year old and both in perfect health. I would recommend Mothers Farm to anyone looking for a Golden. I found the staff at Mothers to be professional, up to and exceeding AKC standards. I was given the opportunity to meet the new puppies parents. Even the pups grandmother. Can't ask for more than that.*


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Ah but you can ask for more than that- for starters, ask for them to do the very basic bottom level of health certs on their breeding animals. I could make a huge list but that for starters. They are not breeders any good breeder would recommend.


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## SnowRacerBilly (Jan 21, 2020)

I caught your reply just as I am leaving for my office. I respectfully disagree. My two little ones ( well not so little anymore) were checked over by a licensed vet before purchase, and this was recommended by the breeder prior to purchase. I would buy from Mothers Farm again and would have no reservations about recommending them.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Again- the clearances I speak of- they are the minimal recommended checks for breeding animals, and are the minimal requirements to be in compliance with the Code of Ethics. No veterinarian can do them all, unless he is boarded in ophthalmology, cardiology and is skilled at orthopedics/radiology. I get that you're happy-but it's like anything else, you don't know what you don't know and that's clear.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I'm not a breeder, I'm a pet person just like you. We all love our pups and glad you are happy with yours. But no way I would consider this breeder or recommend this place. A good breeder cares about the breed, all this place cares about is the money.
For the price they are asking they should be doing the recommended OFA clearances to give their pups the chance to be as healthy as possible. Goldens have some very serious health concerns and the only way to avoid these problems in the future is to test for hip or elbow dysplasia. Have the hearts checked by a cardiologist and the eyes cleared by an opthamologist. Most quality breeders also do genetic testing for many other things that plague this breed.
Why anyone wants to pay top dollar for a puppy without this makes no sense to me. If I'm going to spend big bucks for anything I expect the quality that comes with it. I've said it before, if you spend the bucks to purchase a Mercedes you certainly don't want to drive home a VW bug for the same money.
Enjoy your pups, you got lucky. But then I'm guessing you have never had their eyes check to confirm there are no cataracts or uveal cyst. Or confirmed you have good hips or elbows. Or had the heart checked for murmurs or dcm. It's easy to say your dogs are healthy but how to you know without testing? What you are saying is so far you haven't been faced with any problems. Obviously the original poster did. And this breeder doesn't care enough to test before producing puppies.


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

I agree with puddles and prism....it's great til it's not! I would never buy another dog from or recommend Mothers Farm school. yes I love my dog to death, she is only 1.8 months...I will definitely keep everyone posted as he grows and more importantly if problems arise! Again, clearances and lack of are the issues...puts her in puppy mill arena!!!


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

In simpler terms, the Golden Retriever Club of America set forth a Code of Ethics, which outlines the 4 main clearances breeders MUST do to be considered ethical/reputable. This breeder, does *NOT* perform these health clearances. They are NOT ensuring that their dogs are worthy of being bred by getting their hips/elbow, eyes & hearts cleared by OFA (the only database approved to do so). 






GRCA Code of Ethics - Golden Retriever Club of America







www.grca.org


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Snow... you over paid for what you got. That may work for you but certainly wouldn't recommend anyone else to do so.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Val King-- I keep a list of dogs to get the AKC pedigree on, and had a note on one (Pedigree: Comer's Copper Jake Of White Oaks) that said 2 sibs and dog without teeth. You are the only dog without teeth I can recall and I know it's been a while but did you ever register your dog? If so, could you PM me the pedigree or the info on the reg slip so I can solve my own mystery?


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