# Puppy Training-- Feedback Please



## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Here is what we are doing and I'd like some feedback.

My dog is 13 weeks old today, and we got him at 9 weeks.

We are using positive training and a clicker. His food is earned throughout the day via training but he also gets some of it in Kongs/puzzles/marrow bones. (The majority of it comes right from our hands.) He gets ZERO food from a bowl. He never has at our house.

He knows sit, down, and come with hand signals and a verbal cue (though I usually use both). He walks very well on a loose leash EXCEPT with dogs/people around. Every time he pulls, he immediately turns back to me. We practice off-leash heel in my fenced yard, and he is great-- though I would never trust him anywhere else. No signal for this. Before he goes in and out of doors, he knows to sit and give me eye contact before going in/out. We have been working on not sniffing my hand for treats and he does this well. He knows to "ask" by giving me eye contact.

He knows to go to his mat with a hand signal, but only if we are in the same room as the mat. Again, I use the verbal cue with it but the hand signal is likely what he pays attention to.

He is not a cuddly boy, so we do extensive handling exercises with him daily. As long as we use food (and we do!) he shows no signs of stress. We can touch him in any fashion and he is compliant. 

I have children, and one of our major tasks is getting him to not jump on them/not nip them. Standing, sitting, nosing, etc. are all OK. So, we have been working on (daily) making sure he can approach them without jumping and/or pulling on all of those very tempting clothing items they wear. This is a work in progress but I see great improvement. We work on "kisses" (on the hand) in conjunction with this. 

I would like to work on give/drop it. We do this but always have a treat in our hand when we do, so I say the cue/use the clicker to get him to drop . . .it's really more like only trading now. Is this OK? I know this is very important. 

We also practice him feeling safe with high value items around us. When he chews on a bully, for example, I trade him with hamburger, but then I give back the bully.

He attends a puppy class but we haven't learned anything new there. It is a good chance for us to be in a distracting environment and have him play with other pups.

He is crate trained. When I tell him to go to his "office," he runs to it.

Issues:
-Jumping on the counter (I can see he wants to be a counter surfer). I keep him tethered and step on the leash short so he can't. Also, prevention. I also send him to his mat. I can see this will be a struggle. 

-Enjoying running off with anything (like shoes) on the ground. I practice prevention as much as possible, but there are 7 people here (5 kids) so it's not 100% possible . . .but pretty good.

-Leave it/Stay/Drop It -- I really need to work on these and would love solid tips here.

-Jumping on new people. This is really a challenge. Again, I step on the leash, put him in sit, but this is tough for him.

-New dogs on a walk. No food will distract him. He wants to play-- but I want to ask owners before he approaches. (He is leashed but they come up on us all of a sudden, and the snow makes it esp hard to get away.)

Feedback welcome.


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I think he needs to have meal time. He shouldn't have to earn his food. We do use her kibble as a treat while training her but she always gets three meals a day. It doesn't sound like your puppy is getting enough to eat.


----------



## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Cpc1972 said:


> I think he needs to have meal time. He shouldn't have to earn his food. We do use her kibble as a treat while training her but she always gets three meals a day. It doesn't sound like your puppy is getting enough to eat.


We pre-measure the food he would get out in the morning based on what he should get per day. We have no problem using up every last bit of kibble. He gets it all. However, our breeder encouraged us to follow Rhonda Hovan's slow growth plan, so it's likely less than other dogs. We also supplement with some fruits, veggies, meat, etc. based on "value."

Foraging for food is a natural behavior. Eating from a bowl is not. If you've read books by Ian Dunbar, you'll see he encourages this. My dog would be obese since we use food as our training tool. We reward all day.


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I am sorry. I do not agree with that.


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Hi Anele, 
Just wanted to say it sounds like you are doing a great job. A lot of the issues you are having with your boy, are the same once I see with Rundle. She likes to run off with shoes, but we keep our in the closet. She gets really excited and jumps around new people and dogs. Using food to get her into a sit position works with people. And I just keep the leash short/pick her up around other dogs depending on how the owner/dog is about the two interacting. I have already had a couple of instances where owners of other dogs have overestimated their own dogs friendliness. Rundle has been snapped at a couple of times, but, luckily takes it in stride. She is used to getting swatted at from the cat. 
I know you don't feed in bowls at all, but that is actually what has helped us the most in teaching Rundle to leave it/stay, and not jump or demand food. We do give small portions of her daily caloric intake as meals, and the remaining as treats. At meal time, she has to sit and wait for the food to be placed on the ground. She is not allowed to go for the bowl until we say OK. If she starts to go towards the bowl before she has gotten the OK, we pick it up and start again. But, you could do this with treats as well if you don't want to do food bowls/meals. Put a treat/bully stick down. If he goes towards it without your okay, pick it up. He will eventually calm down and wait for it. And he will eventually realize that it is faster to wait for your okay than to continue to try and charge/jump for food. 
With practicing drop it we do variable rewarding. Where sometimes she is rewarded with food dropping it, and sometimes just praise. That way it is not always a "trade" situation. With really high value things though it almost always requires a trade to get her to drop it. 
And the other thing, which I know is not an issue for you... is practice, practice, practice. Everyday we practice, leave it, drop it, sit, down, stay etc. And everyday we see improvements in Rundle's ability to listen and respond. Depending on her hyperness/sleepiness she can be more or less responsive... but, I know we will get there with our pups. Hope this is helpful!


----------



## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

Best "Drop it" plan I've seen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndTiVOCNY4M

Jumping on people: Have him on leash and far enough away so that he can be calm -you'll have to find opportunities with more distance. You should be able to quickly get to people being able to come close and pet again.

Other dogs: How is your puppy class play set up? It's beneficial for puppies to learn to be calm to be allowed to play. You might have to find opportunities to see dogs at a distance and work on settling/offered attention before you are ready to move closer.

My puppy also gets his food via training - It's a wonderful way to not 'waste' any of the calories they're eating when you want to be doing a lot of training. One of the trainers that inspires me has made comments along the lines of "Why would you have a dog if you don't have time to train him at meal time?" I -can- understand why some people might not want to/be tired/etc or feel wrong about having dogs work for their food - but her words have stuck with me and even my adult dogs primarily get food through training - silly tricks and games or sometimes more important skills - for fun, enrichment, and their well-being.


----------



## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

Anele said:


> We pre-measure the food he would get out in the morning based on what he should get per day. We have no problem using up every last bit of kibble. He gets it all. However, our breeder encouraged us to follow Rhonda Hovan's slow growth plan, so it's likely less than other dogs. We also supplement with some fruits, veggies, meat, etc. based on "value."
> 
> Foraging for food is a natural behavior. Eating from a bowl is not. If you've read books by Ian Dunbar, you'll see he encourages this. My dog would be obese since we use food as our training tool. We reward all day.



This is how we plan to also raise Noah, with slow growth. We want to give him every advantage we can to be as healthy as possible!


----------



## Hailey (Feb 26, 2015)

I've never heard of not having mealtimes. It's my understanding that mealtimes are part of the structure a puppy needs. I imagine it made housebreaking very difficult? I'll have to look into this Ian Dunbar. You're right, dogs certainly don't get bowls of food in the wild...but your dog isn't living in the wild. He has to adapt to living life with humans...I just imagine down the line having many problems with not having mealtimes. I would suggest mealtimes with whatever food/treats you're going to use for training taken out.

Beyond that, it sounds like you are doing an amazing job. You spend a lot of time with your pup and it shows. He seems ahead of his class. Just stay consistent.


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

You can still use the kibble to train. But this is going to create a problem. The above post is right. How would you potty train. I could also see it creating aggression problems. You can still do slow growth just do it in three or so mealtimes.


----------



## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

Could you explain why this would create problems?

My puppy is pretty much house trained - he's loose in the house during the day and at night. I'm not sure why this would create aggression or other problems.....


----------



## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Thank you so much for the replies! I'm about to make dinner so I only have a second-- will be back with more tonight.

RE: potty-training, he has had almost no accidents. I can't remember the last time he did, in fact, so this is not an issue. He goes within-- literally-- a minute after being outside when it's #1. When it's #2, it depends, but no longer than 5 minutes. Usually within 3.

Another reason I don't feed him from a bowl is because of bloat. He knows how to get his food out of puzzles, though, so if there is ever a time he would need a lot at once, I could easily fill the puzzles we have. He would still have to work, but not so hard!


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

SwimDog said:


> Could you explain why this would create problems?
> 
> My puppy is pretty much house trained - he's loose in the house during the day and at night. I'm not sure why this would create aggression or other problems.....


I agree. We do give Rundle small meals, but I don't see how having meals at all helps us with potty training. We take her out at regular intervals, and that's when she goes to the bathroom. The remaining calories not given to her at her meals, we use at treats for training similar to SwimDog and Anele. As long as dogs are getting fed enough, and are properly cared for, whether they get meals or are fed continuously by treat/reward throughout the day, this should not create aggression. In fact, goldens/most dogs like having a job. I think if anything this shows how much time SwimDog and Anele spend working with their dogs. Kudos to the both of you!


----------



## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> I agree. We do give Rundle small meals, but I don't see how having meals at all helps us with potty training. We take her out at regular intervals, and that's when she goes to the bathroom.



What is does help with is knowing when #2s are due. That's all I can think of.


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I just don't agree with it. A puppy should not have to do a good deed to have his meal. But whatever works and different strokes for different folks.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Default leave it by kiko pup https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZCIeEUm_n8

Kikopup uses this to help solve counter surfing but it is a great leave it. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc It's Yer Choice is a game of impulse control which also teaches a default leave it.


----------



## Hailey (Feb 26, 2015)

Feeding consistent amounts at consistent times promotes less hunger and healthier bowels.

I think it's also important to distinguish between meeting a puppy's basic needs and training. Dogs are motivated by food and that's why a lot of people use it successfully in training. Dogs--goldens, particularly, are also motivated by an owner's praise. When a dog receives its meals from training, it pollutes the want to please with want to eat (basic need). We want our dogs to perform out of want and not hunger. I think this is the potential aggression others have talked about a dog developing in this situation. If you are its source of food through training--it essentially has to "forage" you for its food. I can see this creating an untenable situation.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

As I said before I think you are doing a fantastic job. You are being proactive and thinking ahead.  It is important to get off of the lure as soon as possible. Instead of having the food in your hand put the daily rations in the rooms you are going to use up out of the way in jars, bowls or bags so the food is not on you all the time. Start setting the bait bag up somewhere in the room you are working in so it isn't always on you. When you do have the food in your hand don't fuss with the food in front of you put your hands down at your sides or behind your back so the food isn't readily visable.

When working a leave it whether default or as a cue never let the pup get the food off of the table/plate/bowl/floor. Always give reinforcement from your hand. 

Helie who is 6 years old enjoys his training time with his kibble even after all this time. He thinks that training is all fun and games.  Luke who is 15 months is still being trained daily with his kibble and has a total blast. He also thinks it is all fun and games. They both prefer eating through training vs a bowl. It is a fantastic way to build a super bond between you and your dog. It also teaches them to take food gently (soft mouth).

On the subject of going to the mat. I do not leave the mat down unless I want the dog to be on it. My first cue for go to the mat is the mat on the floor. If the mat is on the floor they are to go to the mat and stay there in a down until I release them. If it is down on the floor all the time and they use it like a bed it breaks down the rules and becomes less clear.

By the way my dogs will do the behaviors I ask if they have been taught without food involved. They want to please me.  Helie is 6 and much more mature. Luke is still a work in progress.


----------



## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

*My philosophy
*We train our dogs all the time, whether or not we mean to. Whatever our dog does is reinforced in some way-- by what we do, what we don't do, or whatever reinforcement the dog himself gets independently from us (like finding food on a counter). 

I use food rewards at this point primarily because I have a puppy, and we are working on establishing our bond. I use verbal praise as well. Petting is something he doesn't love (though he's made leaps and bounds with it) so it isn't a reward at this point. We also use playtime and freedom as rewards, but my dog prefers training for food above all else. He may change over time.

I train all day. I have no other choice. My dog isn't very physically active, but he is mentally. He needs a job-- a task. Either I find him one, or he finds one himself, and we may agree that his choice will not always be the best, esp. at this age.

We train on a set schedule because his day is scheduled. This means he gets fed on somewhat of a schedule as well. He has a schedule for when he's up, and then he takes naps in his crate. He happily accepts this. I wake him up at a certain time to make sure he isn't in there too long and won't have to whine to be let out. Much of the training at this point isn't done via commands but by me shaping his behavior. I catch him "doing something good" and then it is reinforced.Sitting nicely while my kids run around in crazy costumes, jumping off a balance beam, with the disco ball? You better believe you will be reinforced for that! Oh, did you decide to leave that bag of cards alone that someone dropped on the floor? Great choice!We took a walk today for 40 minutes.Minus the part where I didn't see some dogs come around the corner (oops!), I had complete control of him during the entire walk. When we saw dogs on the route, we crossed the street ahead of time and then he sat quietly and nicely to observe. Reinforce! 

A question for those who don't do it this way-- how do you do it? I have no idea. While we use preventive measures for keeping our dog out of trouble, it isn't always the same as making sure he is doing the right thing when it's a choice. And, with 5 kids in the mix, having control of him is a big deal.
*
3Pebs3*, in teaching stay/leave it, do you have Rundle on a leash or do you just immediately pick up the food? I think my pup would jump on me and not stay sitting. What I have been doing is putting him in sit/down and then look at me (no command for the eye contact-- I just wait). Once he gives me eye contact, I give it to him. I do this for the stuffed marrow bones I give him as well as other items like bullies. Rundle sounds like she is doing so amazingly well. You are an inspiration!

*SwimDog*, that is an excellent plan. I will use it. Makes so much sense. I love Kikopup and have been going back to her videos more. She was the one who helped me via her videos how to do loose-leash walking. It would NEVER have worked with my Fox Terrier, but it's working great with my GR. 

As for training class, they have to sit (but we hold them by the collar), then release for playtime. I will say it is impossible for me to call my pup back at ANY distance during playtime. I can only get him away from play by luring him (yes, luring) with food. Suggestions welcome!

I absolutely agree about not wasting calories!

*Rabernet*, that is fantastic. We do give more food than the recommended amount, though. 3/4 cup is just too little for my guy.

*Hailey*, I understand that this may be a new concept for you. That doesn't make it wrong, though.  Here is info on Ian Dunbar. As I mentioned, we have no issues at all with housebreaking. We just take him out at regular intervals and watch his cues. Again, his bowels are perfect. I suspect he actually is LESS hungry than most dogs because he is getting fed on a regular basis-- throughout the day. He doesn't have to wait for hunger to build up. Remember that I'm not feeding him less (well, except that I'm following the slow-growth) but that his "meals" are spread out.

*Cpc1972*, where are you getting your info that this could cause problems? Is this something you've researched? I'm not trying to be snippy, but I research everything extensively before I move forward with ideas. I have yet to come across anything that counters what I am doing, so I would like info if what you say is true-- then I would rethink my plans. However, I can't base my plans on a guess, if that makes sense. 

RE: "doing a good deed." IMO (my opinion only) you are putting your human emotions into this . . .and this about dogs.  My dog isn't doing "good deeds" but rather being reinforced for making good choices in the human world. I would LOVE it if someone fed me all day when I made good choices!

*Solinvictus*, excellent advice as always. I have removed the treat bag from my person (except on walks). I have started with variable rewards and see the difference. He works HARDER and actually seems more excited. It is amazing.

I am so glad you mentioned the mat. You are right-- my dog has been using it as a bed. Not to sleep, but sort of a treat bed! I have picked it up. 

Thank you for the excellent links, too.

*I appreciate feedback from everyone, even when I don't always agree. It gives me something to consider!*http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Hi Anele, 
I do not have Rundle on a leash. She is only leashed when we go outside. 
There are a couple of ways I have been working on this though. I always start off my telling Rundle to sit. 

1. At meal time, once she is sitting I begin to lower the bowl to the ground. If she moves toward the bowl before it has touched the ground I lift it back up out of her reach, and tell her to sit again. If I put the bowl down, and she starts towards the bowl before I said okay (her release word), I pick it back up again and make her re-sit. We keep doing this until she stays seated, with the bowl of food on the ground out of reach. Once I say OK, she is allowed to go to the bowl to eat. We no longer have to do this song and dance. Rundle sits quietly and waits for you to say OK to approach her bowl. 

2. When practicing leave it with treats, I have Rundle sit. Usually I am sitting too. I put a treat on the ground, and tell her to leave it. If she leaves the seated position to go towards the treat I pick it up before she can have it. If she remains seated and does not go for the treat, I give her another treat (not the one of the ground), from my hand and tell her she's a good girl. She no longer goes for the treat on the ground after being told to leave it, and waits for the treat from my hand. I have tried different ways of putting the food on the ground and telling her to leave it: placing, tossing, putting multiple treats. She knows she will be treated if she leaves it. This has translated pretty well to our walks when we command leave it. 

3. To practice stay, I tell Rundle to sit. Then I walk away from her. I try to vary my movement (i.e. move away from her facing her, move around objects in the room, walk away from her with my back to her). If she follows me, she is not treated, and we start over with her in the sit position. If she stays in a seated position throughout the entire time I am moving away from her, I eventually walk back to her and give her a treat. She is getting this, but is not perfect at it. She likes to follow us everywhere all the time, so staying while we move away, particularly with our back towards her is harder for her. But, she is getting there on this one. 

I hope I explained this a bit better now. Happy to answer any other questions you have. And hopefully you find this helpful?


----------



## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

I do the same thing and I've always made my puppies work for their meals. Right now, I train with Cooper twice a day with his meals and give him the food for working. There are many behaviorists and dogs trainers and books that recommend this (Puppy Primer by Patricia McConnell and Perfect Puppy in 7 Days by Sophia Yin) and in my opinion it works wonderfully. I also love the food puzzles when I don't want to feed treat by treat. 

For stay, I don't know how far you've gotten with him but I started by rewarding for just remaining in the "sit" (or "stand") position for just a SECOND longer and I slowly worked up. He learned it very quickly and has no problem with distractions now. In the beginning, I would walk backwards away from him to increase the distance (still looking at him). As he got better, I started turning my back to him and increase distractions. If I do feed him out of the bowl (which I still do at times) he has to sit/stand and stay before he's able to eat. The 3Ds-Distance, Duration and Distraction-are all important but you don't want to increase all of them at one time.

I do "leave it" the same way 3Pebs3 does it, just in a down position and I typically cover the treat if he goes for it. 

For jumping, I think the leash is easiest but if you don't have a leash, you can ask the person that he's jumping on to walk into the puppy (gently obviously). It invades their space and puts the person more in control. 

As for counter surfing, I can tell we're going to have problems as well. He's just starting to jump up. For now, I'm trying to keep him leashed and working on prevention and supervision. If there are better suggestions, I'd love them. I always felt like this was difficult (and it took me a while with Ryleigh) because they get rewarded when they steal the ground beef or pork tenderloin (true stories!) off the counter. I did notice that it improved as I worked and began to perfect the "leave it" command.


----------



## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Here's a great explanation for teaching stay from my friend that worked for an animal behaviorist for several years and teaches puppy classes: 

You want to set her up for success rather than test her to the point that she fails. The 3Ds will help you do this. The 3Ds are (in no order of importance) distance, distraction, and duration. The term and idea behind the 3Ds was coined by applied animal behaviorist Patricia McConnell..This post is a good starting point for you to begin reading because it deals with step-by-step training. Back to the 3Ds. You only want to focus on one D at a time. For example, when teaching the dog to “stay”, keep the Distance (between you and dog) small while working on Duration (longer waits…increasing only by SECONDS at a time), in a low-Distraction environment (i.e. your kitchen). I truly meant to type seconds in all caps because I wanted to emphasize how important it is to start off small and build on your successes. By keeping the Distance small, you can reward frequently and at random intervals for waiting and staying put. Then, when increasing your Distance from the dog, start with shorter-Duration waits as you take a step or two away (and then back to pup to release, a life-reward for waiting), all of this still in a low-Distraction environment. Next, when the Distraction is increased, go back (at first) to short Duration and short Distance, then increase 1 or the other, then the third D. And of course, in a new place (i.e. the street corner on your walk through the neighborhood), go back to step 1 (short Duration/Distance/low-Distraction) and start increasing each again, one at a time, watching for a high success rate before increasing a “D”. If the success rate drops, then go back a step or three to where success is higher, then increase the challenging “D” at a slower rate. Another comment about Stays—some people differentiate between stay and wait. For example, I use “wait” when I want AB to stay put for a short period of time and then come to my side. An example of this is when I leave AB in front of the first obstacle on the agility field. I tell her to wait as I leave her and position myself before I release her to start running. I use “stay” to mean that she better not move a muscle until I return to her and tell her otherwise. In other words, a “stay” is usually used for longer periods of time (and on some level more serious too). AB cannot be released from a “stay” until I return to her. Important tip about releasing your dog from “stay.” When you return to your dog, give your dog a cookie calmly BEFORE saying “OK” (or whatever your release word is) and moving on. This is important because your dog needs to learn that the rewarding part is linked to staying put and not “getting up or moving around once mom comes back to me.” Does that make sense? If not, please tell me because how you end the stay is just as important as how you start the command! So when/how to practice one’s Stays? Implement the “nothing in life is free” policy immediately (if not already used) with your dog. Whenever Lacey wants to eat, she has to perform correctly some behavior (can be as simple or as difficult but recommend asking for a “Sit”). Another good time is when she is going outside or into your car. Tell her to “Sit”. If she does not sit, the door does not open or she does not get her food bowl. As I mentioned earlier, I pick up AB’s bowl in my bedroom where she eats. I leave her in a down stay and go to the kitchen to prepare her dinner. She is only released and allowed to eat her food when I tell her to. Warning: as I said earlier, you want to set your dog up for success, so if you do not think Lacey can reliably stay put long enough for your ot make her dinner, do not attempt this behavior off the bat! A good starting place would be for her to just sit once asked right before feeding. But let’s say you eventually do this with Lacey and she accidentally breaks early….what do you do? Very important---do NOT make a big deal about it. Just quietly stop what you are doing, guide her back to the location/position. Put her back in a Stay and then return to what you are doing. If she breaks again, it is a tell-tale sign that you are asking too much and need to take a step backward. She will quickly learn that doing what is asked means access to what she wants. In other words, ignore the “bad” behavior and only reward the right behavior. It is an incredible experience to watch your dog’s wheels turn and figure out how to “play the game.”


----------



## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Thank you *3Pebs3 and **Christen113!!!*

One very important question I have for both of you is your use of the verbal command. I am always VERY hesitant to use a command unless I know it will be honored, and this is especially true with a verbal one. I start off with shaping/capturing the behavior first, adding a visual cue, adding a verbal cue, and then eventually slowly weaning from the visual cue . . .while still keeping it in practice. 

So, if I say or cue "sit" and my dog doesn't sit, I've just taught my dog NOT to sit. Oops!

This is why I have used food to lure initially. And how I get lost when it comes to helping with the waiting/staying/leave it. Those are sort of "not" doing something. Not moving, not touching. This is also why I am using eye contact. What I've been working on is showing my dog the food, waiting for eye contact, and then giving it to him while saying "take it."

3Pebs3, I admire you for doing "leave it" on walks. I can't do that yet. I do "take it" instead (have food to trade). I have no confidence-- I figure if I say it in a highly distracting environment and he doesn't do it, I've blown it! BUT, today on our walk he made the choice to leave things on his own, and I reinforced this heavily with food.

Christen, yes, I am familiar with the 3Ds. For me it's very much been about the logistics of small steps. Everything must be managed very carefully, and I find this to be hard to do with everything else in my life! So when I am out in public and am suddenly surprised by dogs/people (this has happened twice to us-- they came around a corner), then I don't know what to do. I was able to see other dogs ahead of time and cross the street to practice calmness around dogs, and that worked . . .but I don't have access to other dogs to do small, progressive steps in ANY environment. Does that make sense? 

Those are really good ideas to do "sit" longer- I like the idea of turning around as a distraction!


----------



## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

I'm sorry, I didn't want to go back and read the entire thread but do you use a verbal marker for correct behavior, like "yes"?


----------



## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Totally agree. I try not to use a word command until it actually means something-although I definitely slip up. I think the thing that has helped me the most about reactions to other dogs when we’re on walks is going to a formal obedience class and working around other dogs and people for distraction and also taking them everywhere to socialize them. I know with my first golden she was perfect at home but then she’d go nuts when she saw other dogs or people in a strange place but after obedience classes I saw a total 180.


----------



## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Oh, and I always make sure to use a verbal marker-in my case "Yes!" when it's what I want and "Oops!" when it's not.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I have been taught not to even use the word stay. If I want a sit with duration I ask for a sit. If I want a down with duration I ask for a down. If I want a stand with duration I ask for a stand. But as was said above it is done slowly building on each of the 3 D's. 

If the pup can do it at least 8 out of 10 times. We progress. 

So you ask using a hand signal can you sit next to me in the kitchen? If the answer is yes 8 out of 10 times. Then you can move the practice to another room. If the answer is again yes 8 out of 10 times you can take it to the porch/driveway/backyard. If the answer is yes then can the dog do it out at the street. And so on.
Do the same with your verbal cue.

Then when attempting distance you would step 1 foot away. if the answer is yes then 2 feet away and so on. Some dogs you have to even start by just rocking forward before even taking that step. If the dog can do it in the kitchen, then another room, then outside etc. You can either add more distance or distractions. One or the other.

Susan Garrett has said to think like the book Green Eggs and Ham. Can the pup do in a car, on a train, in the mall, at a school, with children running past, with children running past and yelling, with children running past, yelling and flailing their arms. At a baseball game, at a parade and so on. But you don't go and put all those distractions in until you have the duration solid. Then work all of this with just duration. Then once you have great duration with all the distractions you start working the distance with the distractions. Each time you add something harder in you start at the beginning. So when you want to work distance with distractions you will shorten your duration and build that up later and concentrate on the distance (one step at a time).

I forget where you asked this but when I am doing a formal training session I always work with the dog on leash. Once we get out of our house/yard they will need to be on it anyway so you may as well get use to working with it now. 

The other thing I haven't seen mentioned is having a release word. If you ask for the sit the dog needs to know when it is okay to get up. Some use done/ free /okay/ break. Many don't want to use a word that you use all the time for other things but I use okay and it doesn't seem to cause a problem.


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Hi Anele, 
Rundle is the first puppy I have owned and trained. So, I am by no means an expert. But, we have been pairing verbal commands with non-verbal commands since day 1. For most commands other than sit, which we do about 10,000x per day she seems to understand the non-verbal commands better. But, with continual pairing, I believe she will eventually be able to master both with either direction given.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Adding a verbal cue. Actually no matter when you are using a new cue it is always done first and if the dog doesn't understand it is backed up by the old cue.

http://dogmantics.com/adding-a-verbal-cue-or-changing-a-cue/

Say your new verbal cue (the cue that you want to use in the future) BEFORE you move a muscle to do the visual cue (the old cue that your dog already knows). Click and treat for your dog responding correctly.

Sit

If you ask for a sit and the dog does it on the verbal, I would jack pot with reinforcement the first few times.
If you ask for a sit and the dog doesn't respond you wait a few seconds and then present the visual cue. When the dog sits on the hand signal reinforce with one treat.

There is science behind presenting the new cue before the old. If you present both at the same time it is possible the dog will not hear the verbal cue and only pay attention to the visual cue.

For sit and down I don't fade (make smaller) my hand signal as there may be a time I would want to just use it and I want it to be seen at a distance. 

Once the dog understands I both cues then if I use the verbal I wouldn't be using the hand signal and if I use my hand signal I wouldn't use my verbal. But I still have both. 

One of the ways dogs learn is by association. The new cue will be associated with the old cue.


----------



## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

I will be back tonight with more, but need to get this out of my system.

Just want to add in a 3rd "D" and that is DISCOURAGEMENT, or rather, how to avoid it.

We had one dog growing up. She was a typical puppy and grew up into a dog with no issues. However, it's not like we ever put her in tough situations like new dogs or anything. We got her when I was 8 or 9 so past the really young age of a child. 

As an adult, I got a Fox Terrier with zero breed research (!) and he seemed like a difficult dog. He really wasn't-- the only (major) problem he had was the inability on my part to ever train him to walk on a leash without pulling. It was a severe issue and so sad because all I wanted to do was walk him by the lake day in, day out. (He also had housebreaking issues but over many years we got those solved.) I always felt like a failure with him, though.

So now I am here again. Did a ton of breed and training research before getting the puppy. Looked for a good breeder. But, I still feel like a total failure. I read one thing that will contradict what another person says (and they can both be credible sources). My head is spinning! 

I feel like my dog is getting more "stubborn." For example, when I want to take him outside, he will often just sit there and not follow me, even on leash. I feel like I am way too dependent on food but not sure when is the right time to phase out. Some people say soon, some people say it takes months. Again, TONS of contradictory information.

The safety of my kids is paramount. I am worried that I am not doing enough to get him calm around my kids. I can't really remember the last time he nipped them but I am always on edge which I know I shouldn't be.

Then there is the darn snow. It is hard to exercise him so that he is "free" and playful. It seems he always gets overstimulated quickly. When we are outside we have my big coat, gloves, and boots to contend with.

I feel like the logistics of progressively more distractions is completely laughable at my house. My 3 y.o. will wear fancy huge dresses around him with long ties. Then change into an angel costume. ALL DAY. I watch them all the time, crate him, have him gated in the living room (with me in it) and then try to monitor when they are together. I discourage this and coax her into normal clothes, but I fail in that regard, too. I also feel like she should be able to dress up as she likes. You are only 3 once. I use the dresses as training opportunities but I don't know if I am doing it right.

I really need to hear from people who successfully trained a dog-- their first-- around children who are 2 or 3. A dog, I might add, who is not naturally gentle with children but not afraid of them. 

Anyway, again, I feel like he (we) are going BACK in training, not forward. Not progressing. It highlights to me that I don't know what I am doing.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Please don't be discouraged. Puppies are hard work but so worth the effort. We all go through 2 steps forward then 5 steps backwards. 

It is really important that you do set up structured training times with just you and your pup along with the daily household chaos. It is also important to give your daughter time to play in those dresses without you having to keep her safe from the pup. So you may set up some time to reward the pup for his good choices while she is in her dress up clothes and then put him in the x-pen to play with safe doggie items. This will give him time to learn to entertain himself but also keep him from picking up bad habits while you are not keeping both eyes on him. It is also important to teach your daughter that there are times during the day when she needs to wear normal daily safe clothing while you are doing daily chores including working with the pup.

You will have to find the right routine (schedule) and with a young family the schedule has to be flexible. 

I have trained both young puppies and young children successfully together in the past but I admit that my children are now grown. 

Have a daily training plan. Have formal training sessions twice a day. They shouldn't last more than 5 or 6 minutes. The rest of the pups measured meals are for all the good choices that are made through out the day. For those 2 formal training sessions it is just you and the pup. Either an older child, your partner or have your youngest sit at the table and color while puppy is doing his formal training (school lesson) have her do a school lesson age appropriate at the table at the same time. If you find that you have an opportunity to train something you really want to train but it wasn't on the today list be flexible do it and move something from the list onto tomorrows list.

You need to realize no matter how much you want the pup to know it now just like your children there will be things that he catches on really fast and others that will take tons of time before he gets it.

According to Science and Learning theory it takes 500 to 1,000 successful repetitions per each behavior for a pup to really completely understand.

All the time you are investing now will have a fantastic payout later. But between now and then you will have good moments bad moments good months and then the teenage/demon spawn time before you get the dog of your dreams.

And you can use toys and games as rewards also. It is much easier to use the food rewards for really new behaviors you are teaching as the pup understands the behaviors you can use the games/toys but they usually up the arousal for the pup.


----------



## jenspup (Jan 2, 2015)

You have my respect...it sounds like you're doing wonderfully! I have 3 boys, but the youngest is 11. I can't imagine adding a puppy when they were all toddlers or preschoolers. I had a hard enough time keeping up with them. 

It sounds like he's coming along great!!


----------



## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

A word about 'discouragement' - a dog's education (no different than a child's) takes a lifetime of practice, repetition, and reward, success and mistakes, all affected by the 'limitations' inherent with their physical and mental abilities, and those things change and progress as they grow up. We need to keep our expectations 'realistic', understand that 'disappointment' happens when we begin to expect more than the pup/dog is capable of giving. 

Believe it or not, your children's penchant for dressing up in costumes and fancy gear, and 'providing' distractions (though not at the most convenient times, some times) is very good socialization for your puppy. It exposes him to 'changes', and helps him accept these things as 'normal' rather than 'scary'. If he gets used to seeing people who have different 'shapes' - to a dog - a man with a hat or beard, or a princess with angel wings - is different and can be scary if they have never seen one before. 

Finding time to focus on 'teaching' can be difficult, however, a few minutes here and there is just as valuable to your pup as a 'formal' five/ten minute session. Every time your pup does something right or offers a behavior such as a sit, or not jumping up like he did the 'last' time, and you notice, praise/reward him in some way - you are teaching him - he is learning all the time. Try to focus on what he is doing 'right', not what he got 'wrong' (again).


----------



## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

I very much appreciate your thoughtful responses . . .did not have time as I thought last night to answer each one with the attention they deserve so I will come back tonight.

I just want to emphasize that my "D"iscouragement is 100% on MY part. I do not see any of this as a failing or disappointment with my dog. It is all me. I am worried that I am doing things wrong and am headed down the wrong path. I also understand that his training will continue for the duration of his life. 

I see it like learning a language. When you can speak a few words, you may feel really proud. But, then you quickly learn how much you don't know, and the _*nuances*_ of it all are what are not only so important, but can be very difficult to learn, taking a lifetime of practice, practice, practice.

In my case, though, I don't know if I am even close to speaking the right language! I keep watching Kikopup videos to help myself, but I still have so many, many, questions, which I know is to be expected.

I keep observing my pup, though-- the way he is so loose and wiggly with my husband even though he hasn't done a lick of formal training and rarely uses food as reinforcement. He barely sees him! So, last night my daughter and I decided to spend more time with play and praise and wean OURSELVES away from the constant use of food at this point. I have already seen very positive results, which is astounding to me-- but I am reminding myself that I may easily see the backwards motion and that will be a sign that I have to keep tweaking, and he may be even learning more.

Solinvictus, we do more than 2 formal training sessions a day. I do some and my daughter does others, though we work on different things. I will create a more formal plan for myself during those sessions and cut down on the number we do. I am also going to use higher value treats when I do. He does not have attention problems at home with kibble, but it will be more fun for him and solidify his training if I don't abuse his acceptance of kibble. As you said, I will use the kibble for the good choices and some in his food ball.

Jenspup, thank you so much. Very encouraging.

Charliethree, yes, I do see these costumes and such as very wonderful for his socialization. He approaches everything right away but not with a raised tail. It's not low between his legs, just a little down. This shows he is curious, but not overly bold-- is that correct? I have him around a lot of the children's toys and he likes them. I put food inside a toy car many times and now he loves that car. He has been accepting of everything they show at his puppy class (crutches, noisemakers, etc.). It is more my feeling of having to be on high alert all the time with him with my kids-- am I handling what I do correctly with him-- if not then I am setting things up for reinforcing what I don't want. 

Today I was playing with him in our living room and had the girls just sitting on the furniture. That went well because they were there but not moving. Earlier for a clicker training session, I had my daughter run around with strings on her dress, and he successfully would run along with her and then turn back to me, never jumping or pulling on her strings. This time I used a nice meat/cheese reward for the session and I could see him be even more motivated. The weather is warming up (finally) so I should be able to take this outside.

I think I am going to make calm behaviors a big priority. We have already been working on them, but after watching the Kikopup video I realize I have been doing it wrong. 

Learning, learning, learning and hoping I don't mess up my dog with all of my gaps of knowledge!

Thank you all SO MUCH for the feedback and support. I invest a tremendous amount of time in our pup so that he can be a happy and content part of our family-- I just want to make sure I am not doing it wrong. I keep reading that GRs are more forgiving with inexperienced people, so I hope this is true in our case.


----------



## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Sounds like he is handling things well! 

The funny thing about life is that no matter how much we think we already 'know' there is so much more to learn. Our dogs are pretty resilient, wise beyond words, we make mistakes with them, they easily forgive us for that, but in spite of our 'fumbling', they can and do exceed our expectations.


----------

