# I surrender to the dreaded prong collar!!



## zeke11 (Jul 21, 2009)

Today was the last straw....

Duffy has been in puppy kindergarten and basic obedience. However, loose leash walking is not something he excels in. He pulls and needs to be in the lead and if he sees a squirrel, rabbit, child, another dog, a person, he goes quite insane pulling and twisting to get to them.

I have given up taking him on walks without my husband there to hold his leash.

Today, we took him to Woofstock - a dogfest at a local park. We got to where we were in sight of a few dogs and he started his pulling, hopping, twisting routine in all his excitement.

We turned around and went home. I was SO bummed.

Well, I went back to Woofstock without him. I cornered a dog trainer there and told her of my woes. She told me she believes in the prong collar for dogs that are incorrigible. 

(let me tell you, I've tried everything including the stand like a tree and to an about turn, giving treats when loose lead happens on occasion, praise and lots of it, too)

I went to Pet Supplies Plus and was looking at the prong collars and a lady with a gsd mentioned - oh, you're getting one just like my girl is wearing. Her gsd was absolutely perfect in the store. And she was only 6 months old!

The woman told me it was 'night and day' when she put the prong collar on her dog. It was immediate. 

I was hopeful....

I came home, put the prong on Duffy and took him down the sidewalk - first time I've done it alone in weeks. 

Amazing! he came to the corner house where a dog lives and which always excites him. One slight tug on the collar and he was right next to me. He stayed there and walked perfectly the whole time.

I believe we have turned the corner. I am thrilled to be able to walk my dog again.

Kris


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Congratulations, prong collars can be power steering for determined pullers. I'm glad it worked for you.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

I much prefer walking Ranger in a prong collar and giving him ONE correction as opposed to a martingale collar and having to nag him every 5 steps in a high-distraction area.

Used properly, they are certainly NOT the "torture devices" people make them out to be. How many times do you hear of dogs running from their so-called "gentle" leaders/haltis and getting told the dogs need to "get used to them"? Ranger loves his prong collar, never had to have an adjustment phase to it, and comes running with tail wagging when he hears it getting picked up. Sure, I wish a martingale collar would work for him but it doesn't. A prong does and it makes our walks much more enjoyable, so we use it. He likes it and I love it.

Congrats - glad you found a tool that will help your training in loose-leash walking!


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## janine (Aug 8, 2009)

Glad it worked for you. I used a prong collar with Murphy, with the help of a trainer. He did so well but I felt so bad using it I haven't the heart to put it back on him. Plus my husband does most of the walking with our two guys together and I won't let him used it.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

don't feel guilty for using a tool that makes it possible for you to walk your dog!! Used correctly, a prong collar can be very effective and it's much more humane than not being able to share your life with your dog because he's out of control.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

We call it "power steering" !!!


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## janine (Aug 8, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> don't feel guilty for using a tool that makes it possible for you to walk your dog!! Used correctly, a prong collar can be very effective and it's much more humane than not being able to share your life with your dog because he's out of control.


You are right!!! Don't get me wrong he gets aleast two very long walks a day....and we take him all over town, he just pulls like a train. When we take him places my husband walks Murphy and I walk Chester. Chester never pulled as bad as Murphy does and now being 3 he has learned some manners. I need to try again ... I know it works. 

I am afraid the prongs could come undone...is this possible? It fits snug but not tight.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

some prong collar are not made as well as others - and even on the well made ones if the prongs are not seated correctly then can indeed come undone.....I do use them in conjunction with a nylon slip collar in high traffic areas.

Prongs dont have to be a way of life forever...but they can help get through a rough patch while teaching better leash manners. I too would rather see a dog out on a walk on a prong then resigned to the back yard simply becuase they pull like a train.

I know a prong collar is a godsend for me when my arthritis is acting up and I can barely hold the leash...much less stop a dog who is startled/panicked, or just plain rambunctious.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

From Canine Good Citizen's test:


> Dogs should wear a well-fitting buckle or slip collar (including a martingale) made of leather, fabric or chain. Special training equipment such as harnesses or haltis, pinch collars, and head collars such as gentle leaders are not permitted.


Everyone decides what is best for her relationship with her own dog, but since there is no counterpoint yet on the thread, here's my sincere belief. (Most people already knowhow strongly I feel about prong collars, so I won't belabor the point with four paragraphs.) I do not allow a prong collar in the CGC class I teach because it does not help build teamwork and communication skills with your dog that can flourish over his lifetime. The CGC test specifically states no prong collars. 

I understand the frustration of a dog who isnt responding to the tools you've tried, and why you'd want to up the ante. However, prong collars don't so much teach as at best provide a quick fix that only lasts as long as the collar is on, and at worst create the anxious/ aggressive dog we see way too many of in training classes. 

A willing loose leash walk or a trustworthy heel takes work, but the rewards are immense. 

However, I do respect the right of others to train as they see fit, and it is better to use a prong collar than not to take the dog out, that is for sure.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-training/56339-im-just-so-very-happy-prong-collar.html


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I usually put the prong on at the beginning of our walks, because my Jacks balks because of gunshots (gun clubs, etc). He needs a little persuasion, plus he can't slip out of the collar the same way he can with his too-big regular collar. Persuasion does not mean I permit pulling on the collar, because constant pressure could injure the dog's throat and the dogs may become immune to the prong then. Persuasion is a timed gentle pop on the leash when I sense he is tightening up and getting ready to balk. And it's verbal encouragement to settle down and walk nicely. When we reach the midway point and he relaxes, I take it off and let him be on his regular collar. 

It is a training tool and no harm in using it. I don't exactly rely on it all the time, but use it when I need it.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

It sounds like Jacks is a fearful dog.


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

Careful with the prong collar. Tucker can be a puller too. We tried the a prong collar. Had to give it up when I found tiny scabs on Tuckers neck. I vowed never would he wear it again. Loose leash walking takes work, lots of it. Tucker is now in and out of his Gentle Leader as we continue to work on loose leash walking. I find the best thing to do is the run him before his walk, and burn off some of that energy first. Then he walks much nicer on lead, and can be rewarded for doing so.


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## zeke11 (Jul 21, 2009)

I totally understand your point, Jill. When I spoke to the trainer today, that was basically what I said - that I wanted a dog that would walk nicely no matter what, not just when he was wearing the prong collar. 

In Duffy's case, he was totally out of control. I tried the easy walk (it did work for a while when he was younger) and I tried a martingale. I did obedience classes. I did the various techniques suggested. The dog is just insane. 

My sincere hope is to get him in control, praise and reward him on a grand scale when he walks with a loose leash using the prong collar. Maybe he will finally 'get it' then. I believe that he just wasn't understanding what I wanted from him. Compounded by the fact that when we were going for walks, my husband was in control simply because I couldn't hold him back (the dog!) and my husband was very inconsistent with the praise and the corrections. I had to keep reminding him and since I would be holding the leash of our small dog, it was hard to keep noticing when Duffy was pulling or not.

Now I can take him out myself during the day with a pocket of treats and keep the rewarding going on and then hopefully move to a regular collar when I feel that he knows what I'm going for.

And thanks for being gentle! I really stayed away from the prong all this time because I totally agree with what you are saying. 

Kris


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> It sounds like Jacks is a fearful dog.


Yes, but not because I use prongs sometimes. 

He's noise phobic. 

We had bad thunderstorms back in July this year and one of them happened when we were away at church and he was alone at home. I came home and found him painfully wedged in a closet. Ever since he's had bad reactions to any storms or noises that remind him of thunder... including gunshots. 

Unfortunately, we live near a couple gun clubs and there are a lot of darn people playing hunter at these clubs, especially when I want to walk my dog.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

I'm also not for the Prong. Seen immense tissue damange with the old style of prong.

There is a new prong type collar out now that is rubberized. Don't know who makes it but I think that might be a better alternative although I agree that postive reinforcement is best and that loose leash walking takes lots of work and a good relationship with the handler (though getting there is frustrating!).

I could imagine that the sensation (pain?) of the prong collar right after running away from a scary situation could make the fear worse from the dog's point of view, though I could see how it makes him easier to contain from a handler's point of view.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I don't know that I have ever seen a prong collar or a dog being walked with one, Could someone make a video of one, it being put on a dog, and then him being walked while wearing the prong collar? 
I tried the Martingale and apparently I didn't understand how to use it. I got the Gentle Leader, but only use it in situations where Brooks cannot stray one inch away from my side. He will walk beside me without a leash better than when he is wearing a leash, if that makes any sense, but I would never trust him without a leash if a squirrel ran by.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

jackie_hubert said:


> I'm also not for the Prong. Seen immense tissue damange with the old style of prong.
> 
> There is a new prong type collar out now that is rubberized. Don't know who makes it but I think that might be a better alternative although I agree that postive reinforcement is best and that loose leash walking takes lots of work and a good relationship with the handler (though getting there is frustrating!).
> 
> I could imagine that the sensation (pain?) of the prong collar right after running away from a scary situation could make the fear worse from the dog's point of view, though I could see how it makes him easier to contain from a handler's point of view.


The one I use with Jacks has rubber tips on the prongs. It also is a cross between a prong and a choke - meaning that when I do not want to correct my golden, it releases and rests loose on his neck. <- Technically this is an incorrect setting if you are using a real prong (I have one of those too, but never use it). It is supposed to be put on high on the dogs neck and tight enough so it does not release or slide lower on the neck. There is constant pressure behind the dog's ears and for some dogs this is just too much. 

With my Jacks, I stopped using the "required" one at dog class (teacher did not like choke chains and wanted me to use something stronger than the buckle collar I trained my golden with through novice) because he would shake his head and look anxious, as Jill said could happen in her comment on the previous page.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Megora said:


> The one I use with Jacks has rubber tips on the prongs. It also is a cross between a prong and a choke - meaning that when I do not want to correct my golden, it releases and rests loose on his neck. <- Technically this is an incorrect setting if you are using a real prong (I have one of those too, but never use it). It is supposed to be put on high on the dogs neck and tight enough so it does not release or slide lower on the neck. There is constant pressure behind the dog's ears and for some dogs this is just too much.
> 
> With my Jacks, I stopped using the "required" one at dog class (teacher did not like choke chains and wanted me to use something stronger than the buckle collar I trained my golden with through novice) because he would shake his head and look anxious, as Jill said could happen in her comment on the previous page.


Oh I'm glad you found something that didn't cause him any added anxiety. Have you been able to find any of those that are purely rubber? Apparently they also act like a martingale, so that they don't contact all the way like a choke. I haven't seen them anywhere but our behaviourist at the shelter was talking about them. Maybe I'll ask next time he has a moment (which will probably not be for a looong time...).


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## zeke11 (Jul 21, 2009)

the one I bought is like a martingale in that it only tightens part way and not unlimited tightening like a choke. I bought it at Pet Supplies Plus - they also had prong tips for sale separately that you could fit onto the ends of the prongs. I should go back and get a set.

Kris


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

There are many kinds of prong collars, I use Hern Springers, they have rounded tips. We have never had a dog injured in any way from using them. Ultimately my dogs are all able to walk well with just their flat collars, but if we are ever in any kind of questionable situation, I always use prong collars, because I have had them slip flat collars. I put one of the collars on myself and had someone else jerk it way harder than I ever would on the dogs. It certainly did not feel good, but I was not injured. I have had dogs injure themselves with a Gentle Leader. If my trainer will not allow prong collars, then I use a Sporn. But I find them extremely difficult to get on and off.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> I do not allow a prong collar in the CGC class I teach because it does not help build teamwork and communication skills with your dog that can flourish over his lifetime.


I guess I could agree with that for someone who just slaps a prong on and figures that's the end of the problem and the training.

But, on the pet side, I'd say a lot more teamwork and communication skills are being built with someone who is able to put on a prong collar and then more easily work on training skills, than someone who does not wear a prong collar and is at a point of total frustration at lack of training progress.

And on the competition training side, me being able to move my fingers a few millimeters and give an eye flick to get my dog to change his position, and then be able to transfer that over to a buckle collar and finally off leash, I don't see how you could say a prong didn't help build teamwork and communication skills.

Sure there are other successful ways of training a dog, but I don't think you can make a blanket statement that they can't help build teamwork or communication.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

janine said:


> I am afraid the prongs could come undone...is this possible? It fits snug but not tight.


There is a small possibility of that happening. If it is a concern you can hook the leash to both the prong and and a buckle collar at the same time.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I prefer a no-pull harness. I used one on both of my goldens and they graduated very easily to flat or martingale collars. I haven't needed a harness on either for almost a year now. I personally don't like a prong collar. I used one on Jasmine because she was a horrible puller, but it really all it did was build up her tolerance to it and pull harder. So I switched to a no-pull harness, which works well for her, but I will never be able to totally transfer her to a flat collar.


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## zeke11 (Jul 21, 2009)

I did get a Hern Springer! It also has the quick release clip which I like. I have been reading that it is a good idea to use a second collar clipped to the leash in the event that one of the links comes apart. Do you do this or recommend it??

kris


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## zeke11 (Jul 21, 2009)

Yeah, we tried the front attaching harness for Duffy and it worked well when he was younger but as he got older and stronger he simply pulled and didn't really care that the harness was tugging him sideways. He just continued to pull away!

I checked his neck thoroughly for any sore spots and didn't find anything. We went for a second walk tonight - he is loving his walks and so am I!

Kris


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## janine (Aug 8, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> There is a small possibility of that happening. If it is a concern you can hook the leash to both the prong and and a buckle collar at the same time.


I will try this or with the nylon slip collar. But I just wanted to say my Murphy is a sweet boy he gets two or more walks a day not just sent to the backyard and he even passed his CGC. It's me that is worried I will hurt him...he walked well with the prong the few times it was used. I should add that Chester wears a choke chain collar on walks because that boy can slip anything...but he is not the puller that Murphy is and it is how I was taught how to control dogs when I got my first dog 27 plus years ago. I know we all do things different and very willing to learn new and or better ways.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

janine said:


> I will try this or with the nylon slip collar. But I just wanted to say my Murphy is a sweet boy he gets two or more walks a day not just sent to the backyard and he even passed his CGC. It's me that is worried I will hurt him...he walked well with the prong the few times it was used. I should add that Chester wears a choke chain collar on walks because that boy can slip anything...but he is not the puller that Murphy is and it is how I was taught how to control dogs when I got my first dog 27 plus years ago. I know we all do things different and very willing to learn new and or better ways.


If he just slips collars, you might want to try the martingale collar. <- This wouldn't work with my golden who needs the "bite" of the prong to get going on his walks, but if you merely want to keep your dog in a collar a martingale collar would work fine.


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## janine (Aug 8, 2009)

Megora said:


> If he just slips collars, you might want to try the martingale collar. <- This wouldn't work with my golden who needs the "bite" of the prong to get going on his walks, but if you merely want to keep your dog in a collar a martingale collar would work fine.


Believe it or not Chester can even slip the martingale but it was hemp and very soft. Murphy is the one that needs the "bite" I am sure it would help if I walked them more not my husband .... Lets blame him


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

This is what we use. It does look kind of nasty and I wanted to cry when the trainer first told me to get one for JOY. But she was my first Field Golden and really a wild child. The first one I got her was the little poodle one with rubber tips, it basically did nothing. Once the trainer fitted her with one correctly and showed me how to put it on right, our training sessions became fun. As a puppy, JOY was too distracted with food to train with, so I used love and praise as rewards. When ever we get the prong collars out , all the dogs come running because they know something fun is happening.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

zeke11 said:


> I did get a Hern Springer! It also has the quick release clip which I like. I have been reading that it is a good idea to use a second collar clipped to the leash in the event that one of the links comes apart. Do you do this or recommend it??
> 
> kris


I have never had a quick release come apart. The old style, where you had to pinch the prongs apart to get it off, did concern me. But the prongs can be bent out of shape by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. I never let anyone but me or their Dad put on the prong collars. (or off)


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I agree with Jill. I have a 90 pound Golden named Marty. He is very tall and strong. We wonder if he truly is a Golden - he is not overweight but very big - muscular - high energy - loving - and does everything in a big way. I have two other Goldens, females, who are very mellow and have been easy to work with from day one.

Marty was difficult to train, but I kept at it and never used a prong collar. This is because we once had a German Shepherd who was a tough dog and he wore a prong collar for about three months. I knew from that experience that they get used to the feel and then you have to take it to the next level. 

There is no quick solution to training. You have to do the work every day and somehow you live your way to the desired behavior together. For us, it took three years to get Marty to where he is today. I can now take him anywhere. He walks off leash and stays with us. He always wanted to please - he just needed leadership and time to grow-up.

Its okay if your Golden or any other dog is not ready to go to festivals and other events that trigger the hyperactivity or whatever you want to call it. I took it one situation at a time. For example, can we pass that dog? I check the body language - is he starting to lunge or pull? Yeah - so we cross the street and create a distance and don't overreact. I exercised him a lot to the point he could nod off - then we tried the adventerous stuff like fests. Its not always fun. He will disappoint you. You will be so embarrassed. You will feel like crying. But I can tell you there are a lot of dog owners who are right there with you. 

You will try the pinch - but you may be back to square one. I'm no expert - I just lived this and Marty is a success story - and he was so worth it. I hope this helps.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> There is no quick solution. You have to do the work every day and somehow you live your way to the desired behavior together.


I agree with this. 

It's sorta the same thought I have about relying on treats while training. It's a crutch. You have to work with your dog until you both reach the point where you can get the job done without any collar or treats. 

This was something I felt strongly about when we were at a show this weekend. I saw all of these high up trainers who relied so much on treats that they practically fed their dogs a full meal before and after their run throughs. :uhoh:

Not bragging, but my guy went into the ring and stayed with me because we are partners and we were both having fun. He pranced for my attention during the exercises and was quickly rewarded with mini-parties between exercises. That is the point you work up to. You shouldn't have to rely on your dog thinking you have food stuffed in your mouth or pockets. 

That said - food and prong collars (opposite sides of training as they are) do have a place in training your dog. They just shouldn't be the permanent solution. It's why I remove the prong collar during our walks when we get to that point of the walk where I do not feel my dog needs anything stronger than his oversized flat collar (he inherited it from his brother who was bigger because I'm too cheap to buy new collars that fit him while the old ones are in perfect shape)


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Megora said:


> That said - food and prong collars (opposite sides of training as they are) do have a place in training your dog. They just shouldn't be the permanent solution.


:appl: well said


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

We used a prong on Gunner and it worked. The prongs didn't bother him at all and didn't leave any marks. We only had to use it a short time. He caught on. And has been pretty perfect ever since.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

What I learned and think is most important is that you can use a prong collar and have a great relationship with your dog without being abusive. You can! I know lots of people that train with them and their dogs are happy and have great relationships with them.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Please be sure you have been shown how to use the prong collar correctly, that is is fitted high on the neck immediately behind the ears, not down around the throat or near the shoulders. It should be snug enough that it stays up behind the ears and does not slide down. Also never ever slide on or off over the head, always disconnect one of the links and take it apart to remove it, and put it on by connecting the link back together.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

She has the quick release kind, a great improvement.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> Sure there are other successful ways of training a dog, but I don't think you can make a blanket statement that they can't help build teamwork or communication.


I wouldn't make that statement for pros or competition people, but training pet owners who want to do CGC is my job. I have seen lots of prong collars in the hands of people without that virtuoso good timing that means very fair application.

The rules of the training center at which I teach are no prong collars, and I am glad. Some people like to use twisted wire on the bit of a horse that is hard to handle; to me , it is past the line I draw in the sand for what is humane and what kind of relationship I want to have with the animals in my life. 

Do you think it's appropriate to make a blanket statement that kicking a dog in the head does not build teamwork? Some blanket statements are accurate. Even if it did build teamwork, imo, the ends don't justify the means. 

Many dogs whose owners use prong collars also have fear/anxiety issues- I see this on and on all day with dog training clients. (The chicken or the egg question applies. I'm not saying the prong creates the anxiety/aggression, but I am saying I have never seen a prong collar teach a dog to feel confident and safer.)

It's fine if you do things differently with your dogs, but no prong collars for my dogs and no prong collars in my classes or for my in-training dogs.

I do sympathize with the OP who seems like she's tried many other options and truly cares about getting out to Woofstock and for walks with a reasonable companion. I love that she is out and about with her golden. I know it's frustrating having a dog pull, but I also think an hour of training 6 days a week can accomplish lots. The bag of tricks for teaching loose leash walking and heel is infinite.


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## sameli102 (Aug 23, 2009)

The scariest thing to me with a prong collar is what if the dog breaks loose? If the dog makes a mad dash and the leash gets caught on something. I don't know that much about them but it seems like that could be devastating, and a real possibility with a hard to handle dog.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Zeke11*

Zeke11

I am so glad that you got a prong collar for Duffy. A few of my closest friends
(neighbors) use them on their dogs and they work like a miracle.
I bought them for Smooch and Snobear a long time ago, after we went for a 90 min. session with a private trainer.
Ken refuses to use them, but I haven't given up MENTIONING them.
The trainer put their normal collar on my arm and yanked it, and then she put the prong collar on my arm and yanked and their regular premier collar, HURT much more!

Good for you and DUffy!!!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Some people like to use twisted wire on the bit of a horse that is hard to handle;


Like some dogs with prongs, there are some horses that can't handle too strong a bit and should never have one in their mouths. And there are other horses who need to have a stronger bit so they do not kill their rider.

For most horses I've seen though... the reason why they are too strong on a regular bit can be pointed back to the rider whose hands are knotted in fists and is constantly pulling on the bit. Horses learn to lean on the bit and tune out or fight with riders like that. 

Whether you use a regular flat collar or a training collar like a prong or a choke, you have to know how to make corrections with those items. Otherwise it is abusive or the dog gets neckstrong.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> I wouldn't make that statement for pros or competition people, but training pet owners who want to do CGC is my job. I have seen lots of prong collars in the hands of people without that virtuoso good timing that means very fair application.


I agree nearly 100% with everything Jill's said in the thread. I'll add that when people say "nothing works" for their dog so they resorted to the prong collar, it _may_ mean that they haven't rewarded and withheld rewards with great timing and consistency. Corrections, especially those that involve pain or discomfort, need even greater timing and consistency or they can cause all kinds of negative consequences. For that reason, I have concerns that a prong can do more harm than good in the hands of someone who's not using good training techniques in the first place. Let me be clear that I'm not talking about the OP, because I obviously haven't seen her train and am in no position to judge.



Ljilly28 said:


> I know it's frustrating having a dog pull, but I also think an hour of training 6 days a week can accomplish lots. The bag of tricks for teaching loose leash walking and heel is infinite.


I'm equally sympathetic to the pulling dog problem and the desire to be able to take a dog places and handle him safely. Ultimately, though, I believe that training leash behavior is all about habits and timing, not about equipment. The idea is to get to a stage in which the strengths of the dog's habits and your relationship with him are what keeps him in control. Even just fifteen minutes a day plus an hour class once a week will work WONDERS.

I was recently working with a very drivey Golden who had a real lunging issue. I was able to reward him once in position, but once he got his treat, he got so energized that he'd run to the end of the leash ahead of me and lunge hard. I was having a devil of a time trying to show him that walking in position led to multiple rewards (food, praise, forward motion), and since he was lunging and leaning out on the edge of the leash, I was having a hard time communicating that giving me some slack would cause me to move forward again.

However, I had enrolled him in a class at my local training center (which also doesn't allow prongs, btw), and my favorite instructor there was able to troubleshoot his particular issue with me. She had him prancing by her side earning treats in, I kid you not, sixty seconds. It took me ten or fifteen minutes to get the hang of the body position and timing she was using, and I was able to get him prancing for me consistently after a few days. Once he was doing that, it was a short step to get him to come back to position after a lunge, and a few weeks later, the lunging stopped because he figured out that behaving would actually make me speed up!

I think we all draw that line between humane and inhumane training equipment and techniques, but we don't all draw it in the same place. In one of my retriever books from fifty years ago, it says to cut a switch so you can beat the dog with it. The author counsels you on what happens if you overuse it (shyness or aggression), but he clearly believes that it's ethical and appropriate if used properly.

That's on the inhumane side of my line in the sand, as I imagine it would be for most folks. Prongs are closer to the line, but they're still on the other side for me. I've been able to phase out the corrections in more and more of the behaviors I teach, and I've been happy with the results every time.

I relied heavily on flat collar corrections when teaching Gus loose leash in 2002-2003. I relied almost entirely on rewards when teaching Comet in 2008-2009. Gus walked dutifully. Comet prances. I feel that the move away from corrections in teaching that behavior was a move in the right direction.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I think it's great that there are a lot of options for people--all I can say is that I have never seen a prong collar cause a problem, or seen a dog abused or treated inhumanely on one. To be honest, some dogs bounce back after physical corrections like it was nothing (other than a teaching moment), but give them a verbal chastening and you'd think that dog was whipped when it wasn't.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> For most horses I've seen though... the reason why they are too strong on a regular bit can be pointed back to the rider whose hands are knotted in fists and is constantly pulling on the bit. Horses learn to lean on the bit and tune out or fight with riders like that.


I think this metaphor absolutely applies to teaching a dog not to pull. I think the problem is typically in the handler, not in the dog or in the equipment. The human needs to learn more and adjust so he can train better, not escalate the pain in order to control the animal.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> I think this metaphor absolutely applies to teaching a dog not to pull. I think the problem is typically in the handler, not in the dog or in the equipment. The human needs to learn more and adjust so he can train better, not escalate the pain in order to control the animal.


*nods* I agree... but like I said, there are some horses who have harder mouths than others who will not be trained in the same gentle bits that would work in the mouth of a docile schooling horse. 

If a trainer lacks the strength to teach a large dog how to give, then it might be necessary to put a prong on to break the pulling cycle long enough to permit the trainer to train. 

Ideally, a prong collar should keep the dog from pulling long enough for him to discover they get praise and treats when they walk nice and their neck doesn't hurt from pulling (which you must assume it does when you see some dogs wheezing and gasping as they drag on the flat collar). 

That window of calm (for your arm) goes away when you do not follow through and reward the good behavior. They either learn to pull on the prong, or they learn to walk nice only when wearing the prong. When you put a training collar on your dog, you have use it to train your dog so he will walk nice on a regular collar or off leash entirely. 

That doesn't happen with just corrections. It's happens because of praise and treats and parties when the dog presents the behavior you want. And it happens when you reward the same behavior when it happens on a flat collar.

A correction trained dog will prance just fine (provided he's a prancer, some dogs aren't) if the owner follows through with a positive hurrah for the good behaviors and encourages the "play and perform" response from the dog. 

If you have a dog who just gets corrections when out of place or pulling but no or ill-timed rewards when the dog presents the good behavior, you are more likely to get mixed results or a confused or bored dog.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok, I'll bite and say that while I think it may work for some dogs, the patience and cookie thing is not as full proof as people would make you think. I totally bought into the 'if you never let them pull, they won't know how to pull crowd.' I know realize this is the same kind of warped logic that says 'if you never give a dog human food, they won't learn how to beg for it' Ha! 

I had the patience of a saint and looked like a drunk sailor for months complete with a bag of cookies. I was also ridiculed in public about 'who was walking who' and yet I was so confident that patience and a gently hand would win. I was wrong. I've since learned to read and adjust to the dog I have, instead of the dog I wanted or thought I had. Once I was willing to bridge the gap (and no this need not be prong collar but it does need to be an effective correction) things got better and my dog finally understood what not to do, instead of just what to do.

FWIW--I have heard that it is a lot easier to phase out a prong collar than it is to phase out a head collar or harness.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

One thing that I have learned working with hundreds of dogs over the years is that no one method works for all dogs, and if you believe it does, at some point a dog will come along and greatly humble you. 
I've never had a dog that is a barker, so I've always figured that surely there's something the owner is doing to cause it or isn't doing to prevent it. But I've learned over the years that this isn't the case; there are some dogs that are almost impossible to stop from barking. I've been humbled.
Some dogs are very dominant driven and will challenge you at every turn. Others are very passive and never cause you a moment's grief. Again, until you've had both kinds, you can't say one method works all the time, or is better. You can only say that it has worked best for you and the dogs you have had personal experience with to date.
Some dogs are very food driven, some very toy driven, some very praise driven. They're all different. Some (especially certain breeds) aren't very driven by much of anything. Luckily, goldens aren't one of those breeds.
Some dogs are very very smart, some are dumb as a box of rocks. Again, no one method is going to work when you're dealing with different dogs, who have different abilities, different drives, and different personalities. 
We all need to do what works for us, for our own dog, and for our life/training style. Sorry, I don't have an hour, 6 days a week, to train my dog. Just the way it is. I'm going to go for a quicker fix, and get on with the next thing. But that doesn't mean that the other way is wrong, just that it doesn't fit for me right now.
If you didn't start a lot of this type of manners training at 8 weeks old, you're going to be fighting a much harder battle. It's much harder to un-train a behavior such as jumping on people or pulling on a leash than it is to train it correctly in the first place. You may need different tools depending on the dog's life stage when you begin to address the issues.
But let's not make anyone feel bad for the method that they have found is working for them, and for their dogs. There's room for all of our opinions here, after all, that's what they are...opinions.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I think this metaphor absolutely applies to teaching a dog not to pull. I think the problem is typically in the handler, not in the dog or in the equipment. The human needs to learn more and adjust so he can train better, not escalate the pain in order to control the animal.


Exactly, in the case of a horse that is heavy in your hands bc of a rider who doesnt have elastic give and take, the horse needs the rider to learn how to have better hands. You see all the time that people with heavy hands then try martingales and side reins to force the horse to be on the bit, and then try a tom thumb, and then a curb, rather than to improve their seat, legs, and hands. A dog that is pulling on his collar doesnt need more drastic equipment, but for his trainer to learn more skills/timing.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

a bit OT---I was recently GREATLY humbled by a black lab puppy, 4 months old, that I could NOT teach the "down" command to. Nor could his owners. Nor could 2 different trainers. I tried every version of teaching it that I could think of, and finally told the owners that I was just plain out of my league with this guy (who incidentally is darn near perfect on the "sit" and "come" commands).


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> It's much harder to un-train a behavior such as jumping on people or pulling on a leash than it is to train it correctly in the first place.


This is so true... 

I learned the above lesson from my first dog and it's why I started training my Jacks the instant we got home from the breeder.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

I regularly test Ranger to see if I can walk him without pulling in his regular collar. That, to me, is a test to see if the dog is walking at your side because he knows to do so or whether he's being "forced" to. Ranger doesn't pull even on his regular collar...this from a dog who used to pull so hard I'd get blisters on my hand and had to wear riding gloves when walking him. I spent an hour a day for 2 months trying to get him to walk on a loose leash and not pull. Cookies, praise, clicker, repetition, over and over. He eventually got to the point where we could walk up and down our block. That's it. And even then he'd lunge at a squirrel or a rabbit and almost take me off my feet. I finally tried a prong collar and the first time I gave him his cue to walk next to me and he ignored me, I gave him a quick correction. He immediately looked at me and settled back into place; he stayed in place for the next hour while we walked everywhere I'd wanted to for the last two months but didn't because i didn't trust him enough. 

I don't see it as any different than having a little stronger bit for shows. My horse and I had a real hard time finding a trainer that worked since he had some mental issues and wasn't the cookie-cutter kind of guy. He'd happily school 3' at home in a D-ring snaffle and then go to a show and panic in the ring. Bolt, canter sideways, balk...spurs were okay to use but if you used your crop, he'd shut down mentally and rear up. We finally had an amazing trainer who suggested a straight bar pelham. Once Virgil realized he had it in his mouth, he was a different horse. I didn't need the strength of it - HE needed the security of it! All of a sudden, his spooking, bolting, and everything else improved 90%. Nothing else changed. Not my riding, not our schooling, NOTHING. (Ironically enough, once he got into jumpers, he went back to a snaffle since he was more focused in the ring and had less time to look at everything that could scare him - see pic below).

So I look at the prong as I did with the pelham - while I may not need it on every walk, I'm glad it's there in case I ever do need it. Ranger is like Virgil and a little bullheaded and intense - sometimes he needs a quick reminder of who is in charge and the prong accomplishes that. 

I still remember how happy I was when I realized that I could now walk Ranger anywhere and be safe - we spent all summer and fall walking past the river, going to parks, going downtown...instead of walking up and down the street with a bag of cookies that Ranger ignored completely - not even looking at me when I praised him.


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## zeke11 (Jul 21, 2009)

Ranger's Mom,

I want to cry because what you just wrote is EXACTLY how I feel! I could stay on the block with Duffy and he might walk with me nicely up and back. But cross the street and ooops, there's the house with the barking dog at the fence and Duffy is lunging to get near him and dragging me with him.

Or there is the statue of the deer in that other yard and he HAS to lunge over to check it out. Heaven forbid, he sees a rabbit, squirrel, etc.

Or even another person. yes, we have done our share of crossing the street because someone is coming with a dog, but the fact remained --- when we went for walks, my husband had to come along because I could NOT handle this dog.

He is huge, I kid you not! I just wanted to get him to a point where he is stable, reliable and has learned he may NOT pull and lunge.

So far, the prong is doing the trick. 

I want to say that this entire group here on the board all have one thing in common - we LOVE our dogs. That said, we all do what we think is best for them, for us, for both of our well-being, and for our relationship with each other. There is not one single person on this group that will use a prong collar for the sole purpose of torturing their dog! On the contrary, I think those of us who have resorted to this method have tried everything only to see their dog get bigger, stronger, and more uncontrollable. And we don't like it and we don't think our dog wants to have to stay inside all the time and not go for walks either!

To make another comparison - I am a mom of four and two of my babies were criers as newborns up till about 3 months. Seriously, I could not put them in a stroller and go for a walk without them crying and me having to end up carrying them and pushing an empty stroller. I couldn't go to the mall, we couldn't take them to restaurants and have them snooze peacefully while we dined. Making me feel worse were the moms of those peaceful infants (the majority I might add) who felt the need to instruct me as to what I was doing wrong or that I just needed to bring my baby to this event or that event, not understanding that my babies were DIFFERENT!

My point being, all dogs are different! Some need more reinforcement, some don't. We all have to make individual decisions as to what is right and what isn't for our own personal dog.

I am very pleased at the really nice support I've gotten here and that so many people understand where I'm coming from. Both sides have been presented very gently and kindly. I do intend to wean him off the prong collar as he (hopefully) improves and will definitely keep you all posted as to his progress!

Thank you all!!!
Kris & Duffy


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> Ok, I'll bite and say that while I think it may work for some dogs, the patience and cookie thing is not as full proof as people would make you think. I totally bought into the 'if you never let them pull, they won't know how to pull crowd.' I know realize this is the same kind of warped logic that says 'if you never give a dog human food, they won't learn how to beg for it' Ha!
> 
> I had the patience of a saint and looked like a drunk sailor for months complete with a bag of cookies. I was also ridiculed in public about 'who was walking who' and yet I was so confident that patience and a gently hand would win. I was wrong. I've since learned to read and adjust to the dog I have, instead of the dog I wanted or thought I had. Once I was willing to bridge the gap (and no this need not be prong collar but it does need to be an effective correction) things got better and my dog finally understood what not to do, instead of just what to do.
> 
> FWIW--I have heard that it is a lot easier to phase out a prong collar than it is to phase out a head collar or harness.


I would have looked exactly the same way as you had I not had the benefit of a more experienced handler who was able to adapt and use a different technique. This dog would lunge and hang himself, leaving no opportunity for reinforcement. Still, the trick was for ME to learn more, not to change the equipment on him.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> *nods* I agree... but like I said, there are some horses who have harder mouths than others who will not be trained in the same gentle bits that would work in the mouth of a docile schooling horse.
> 
> If a trainer lacks the strength to teach a large dog how to give, then it might be necessary to put a prong on to break the pulling cycle long enough to permit the trainer to train.


If that were my problem, I would control the situation, not bring the problem dog into the problem situation and change the equipment. If I _had_ to give a problem puller to a 95 pound person and _had_ send them through traffic, I'd give them a prong. But typically, I don't have to. I can take a problem dog into a controlled situation (my backyard, a training session with friends, a class) and work in an environment where I can control the stimuli and thus create opportunities for reward.



Megora said:


> you see some dogs wheezing and gasping as they drag on the flat collar


This is a real problem. A flat collar is not a "safe" collar if (and it all goes back to this) the handler is not handling.



Megora said:


> A correction trained dog will prance just fine (provided he's a prancer, some dogs aren't) if the owner follows through with a positive hurrah for the good behaviors and encourages the "play and perform" response from the dog.


True. A mix of positive and negative can bring out a good attitude if it's done properly. I'm just not sure that the negative is as necessary as people sometimes think. I think you can substitute creativity and excellent timing for a lot of things that are traditionally trained with corrections.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

As a side note, having attended a number of basics/manners/problem behavior classes, I do think that ineffective handling is far more often the problem than anything having to do with the dog. Nearly every time I've seen an incorrigible pulling, barking, nipping, maniacal dog who was causing total exasperation in the handler, that same dog transformed when a great instructor took the leash.

I've seen dogs choke themselves half to death on all kinds of collars (slip, choke, martingale, flat, prong, etc.), but put the other end of the leash in the hands of somebody who communicates more effectively and who has a bigger bag of tricks, and the dog transforms. That experience leads me to believe that sometimes when somebody says "well, we tried that and it didn't work," it may be that there was a problem in their execution. It's nothing against the handler, but it's VERY hard to see what you're doing wrong without an experienced eye watching you and giving pointers.

Good instructors and friends have taught me how to reward the dog from a direction that encourages the desired behavior to continue, how my body was leading my dog out of position because of the way I bent to reward, how to communicate with better timing, when to walk backwards in order to reset the dynamic, and even the simple trick that walking faster can make a dog more likely to keep pace with you and open up a window for a reward.

I've learned all that, and I still feel like I'm only 10% of the way to being the kind of communicator and handler I see in the trainers I admire.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I can take a problem dog into a controlled situation (my backyard, a training session with friends, a class) and work in an environment where I can control the stimuli and thus create opportunities for reward.


I agree. Most of the training I did with Jack started in the quiet upstairs hall at home. Zero distractions. This is where I taught him the groundwork for heeling and focus work. 

Once he mastered that, we moved outside to the backyard. 

Once he mastered that, we moved beyond to empty parking lots. 

Once he mastered that, downtown in the evening (it's usually quiet because everyone goes home). 

And so forth.

You can't train your dog at home and then expect them to behave when in public. 

You have to very slowly up the distraction/anxiety levels for training sessions.

I did all of the above with a flat buckle collar, treats, and my voice. But I have a very receptive dog, have trained before, and began training him very early. And that's for general walking and training. 

I think what people are saying is sometimes they have dogs who just will not look at treats or listen to you when they are in public and are bombarded with distractions. And this despite the fact that their owners are doing all of the right things and training at home. 

You can tell people to keep their dogs home until they settle down, but some goldens do not settle down until they are four. That would be fine, except they absolutely MUST be taken in public and everywhere in the first two years of their life so they do not become fearful of strangers and new places. That's where training collars help them make that unfortunately necessary rapid transition from home to public - for those dogs that need them. 

- I currently use the prong collar to get my guy out for walks despite his fears, but I view that as training. The worst thing I could do for him and his hips would be letting him have his way and stay home. That will only reinforce his fears. I push him through the rough patches, and have noticed he is getting better with the gunfire sounds. I'm able to distract him during the walk and keep his focus on me and/or thinking about squirrels and raccoons so he calms down. I would not have been able to get him out further than mid front lawn without the prong collar on him. As with any other training, I hope that we both reach a point where he won't need that prong collar (I'm assuming this winter when all of those hideous gunshooters _go away_). 

*** While I'm defending the OP's use of the prong collar, I thought I should add the following disclaimer, as I think it is important.

As I said in other threads, I'm concerned about some training facilities encouraging everyone to put prong collars on their dogs for shortcut training. 

I don't think a training collar (prong or choke) has any business being on a dog younger than a year. 

And I don't think it belongs on every dog (some dogs are too soft and anxious to tolerate a training collar). 

And I just about flip my wig when I see incorrect use of these training collars.

I believe nobody should use these collars unless they attend classes and learn how to make corrections and learn how to transition back to a buckle collar. 

Of course, I also believe that every dog owner should take their dogs to obedience classes for the first two years of the dog's life.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I would have looked exactly the same way as you had I not had the benefit of a more experienced handler who was able to adapt and use a different technique. This dog would lunge and hang himself, leaving no opportunity for reinforcement. Still, the trick was for ME to learn more, not to change the equipment on him.


That's great--but I don't think all dogs are created equal and that these techniques work for all dogs. Sorry. I hate it when it is implied that if a method didn't work for you, it's because you did something wrong.

Your method seems to rely heavily on a dog being motivated by food. Not all dogs are motivated by food--or not to the extent needed to counter what your dog would encounter on a walk. One poster even wrote about it taking 3 years--3 years!--for this method to work. What's so bad about incorporating a correction to speed up learning and progression and move on with it. I mean, especially when said correction (and I mean using a prong or not) does not injure or traumatize or abuse the dog?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> You can't train your dog at home and then expect them to behave when in public.
> 
> You have to very slowly up the distraction/anxiety levels for training sessions.


So, so true. I like to build through distractions I have control of (training with friends and their dogs, classes, etc.). Distance is also your friend as you work. A strange dog 1/4 mile away across a field is a weaker distraction than one 50 feet away, which is weaker than one 10 feet away, etc.



Megora said:


> I think what people are saying is sometimes they have dogs who just will not look at treats or listen to you when they are in public and are bombarded with distractions. And this despite the fact that their owners are doing all of the right things and training at home.


If that's the case, then you're not at the stage where you can train in public yet. But I try never to use treats as a motivator, only as part of a reward structure. I don't want my dog to obey the cookie any more than I want him to obey the equipment. I want him to work with _me_ because he finds it rewarding and satisfying and because I've built that habit in him.

I do not agree that somebody is necessarily doing "all of the right things" if their dog can only be controlled through specialized equipment. I wouldn't consider training only at home to be sufficient if you want your dog to also behave in the park.




Megora said:


> You can tell people to keep their dogs home until they settle down, but some goldens do not settle down until they are four. That would be fine, except they absolutely MUST be taken in public and everywhere in the first two years of their life so they do not become fearful of strangers and new places. That's where training collars help them make that unfortunately necessary rapid transition from home to public - for those dogs that need them.


That is really quite far from what I'm saying. I think if you have your dog out earlier and to more places you're going to have an easier time teaching leash skills since he won't be quite so desperate for stimulation. I would never advise that people keep their dogs home and hope that age settles them down, but I would say that as long as the dog is a problem puller in public, they need to be working in controlled situations (backyard, classes, quiet fields, etc.) regularly to address the problem. If the dog is in an overly distracting situation and is only under control because of the prong, I don't think he learns much anyway. The big distracting environments aren't a great place for a walk when your dog hasn't learned leash manners.




Megora said:


> Of course, I also believe that every dog owner should take their dogs to obedience classes for the first two years of the dog's life.


I've personally found classes incredibly rewarding, and I would not really be interested in having two Goldens if they weren't trained enough to take all over the place. I need dogs who obey off leash in the woods, walk politely in the town, and can safely greet people of all ages and physical conditions. That's what a companion dog means to me. A house/yard dog was never what I wanted, nor do I think that life is appropriate for a drivey Golden. For me, the real Golden temperament includes a serious desire and willingness to work, whether that means in actual hunting, competition, conformation, or just in an active day to day life out and about.

It is incredibly difficult to train Goldens without the benefit of a mentor and/or instructor, and I wouldn't advise it.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> As a side note, having attended a number of basics/manners/problem behavior classes, I do think that ineffective handling is far more often the problem than anything having to do with the dog. Nearly every time I've seen an incorrigible pulling, barking, nipping, maniacal dog who was causing total exasperation in the handler, that same dog transformed when a great instructor took the leash.


Yeah, but part of that could be contributed to the new trainer being a novel to the dog. Mine in particular loves to suck up and do all sorts of tricks for new people just because they are new to her. Plus, I would love to see the situation too. Where is this transformation taking place? In a class or on the actual street and does it hold up long term? Are you taking lots and lots of smaller steps? Are you dispensing food every few feet?


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## sdain31y (Jul 5, 2010)

Our trainer recommended a prong collar for Jazz. She gave me a lesson in using it when she first out it on Jazz. Jazz responded very well to it and learned, er is learning to walk on a loose leash. I don't always use it, but when I _KNOW_ I need more control I still put it on her. Its one tool among many to use, in what will probably be the never-ending training of Jazz and her new brother.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> That's great--but I don't think all dogs are created equal and that these techniques work for all dogs. Sorry. I hate it when it is implied that if a method didn't work for you, it's because you did something wrong.
> 
> Your method seems to rely heavily on a dog being motivated by food. Not all dogs are motivated by food--or not to the extent needed to counter what your dog would encounter on a walk. One poster even wrote about it taking 3 years--3 years!--for this method to work. What's so bad about incorporating a correction to speed up learning and progression and move on with it. I mean, especially when said correction (and I mean using a prong or not) does not injure or traumatize or abuse the dog?


My point was actually the opposite: not all techniques work for all dogs. The techniques I knew and had used with a lot of success were an utter failure for this dog. So I took him to somebody with a bigger bag of tricks and we found something that did work.

And the dog I was discussing is not really food motivated. I haven't actually described any method in detail in this thread, so I don't know how you arrived at the idea that the method relies on food. We played to his motivation (motion and sound) and used treats to reward when he would take them. He had a funny habit of taking them and then spitting them out, so they were a very minor part of his leash training. I used praise and speed reinforcement mostly. I also used hand targeting to get him in position once he started paying more attention.

I generally think it's a bad idea to use food as _motivation_ at all, except in the very early stages of certain skills (painting E-Z cheese on the agility dogwalk comes to mind as a good use of food motivation). With a few exceptions, I try to use food only as a reward, and only when the dog really finds it rewarding in context. Not all dogs will even take a food reward, so it's time to go back into the bag of tricks and figure out something that will work as a better reinforcer. 

I can't judge whether you used this or that method perfectly; I have no right. I wasn't there, and that's why I would never pretend that I knew whether your problems with those techniques were that they were wrong for the dog or that you weren't executing them effectively. I do know that I've seen many, many people become fed up with techniques while not executing them correctly. That's why I don't accept that people are always right when they say "we tried that and it doesn't work."

I also know that there are lots of positive techniques I haven't learned yet, and that's where I turn when I have trouble. I choose not to use tools that rely on pain or discomfort, and I choose to advocate for others to do so as well. I'm always happy when a dog behaves and can go more places with his owner. However, my experience leads me to believe that positive techniques are a more powerful and humane way of achieving good manners than incorporating pain or discomfort.

I also disagree that corrections necessarily speed up the training process. I would never wait three years for my dog to behave on the leash, but again, I'd turn to more experienced trainers for help, not buy a different collar. I've been able to watch some really wonderful trainers handle some really rambunctious dogs, and the way those dogs transform in the right hands really leads me to think that the answer to the majority of training problems lies with the humans, not with the dogs or the equipment.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

LOL. Hadn't heard that one before 



mylissyk said:


> Congratulations, prong collars can be power steering for determined pullers. I'm glad it worked for you.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

GoldenSail said:


> Yeah, but part of that could be contributed to the new trainer being a novel to the dog.


I kinda thought the same thing... 

Training is very easy when you have your dog's full attention. A new person at the other end of your dog's leash has that immediate advantage. 

Although I did get a laugh a couple weeks ago when our current instructor caught my Jacks and tried to put him back into a down stay. Jacks went into evasive maneuvers mode - which for goldens is the OTT low to the ground happy fit avoidance behavior. I think part of the reason was her posture when she took his leash. She came onto him too strongly and overpowered him. 

The last instructor knew a little better how to approach him, take the leash and gather him in. Her posture and manner was perfect. <- And because she had his full attention, I got to stand back and admire my golden working his heart out for somebody else. <- I didn't feel she was a better trainer than me, because after all... he was doing everything *that I taught him*. :


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

Claire's Friend said:


> ... If my trainer will not allow prong collars, then I use a Sporn. But I find them extremely difficult to get on and off.


Make sure the plastic push-button slip thingy is let out all the way (then tighten up again to walk). That should make it very easy to get on and off.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I don't know Tippykayak personally, but I feel so strong about his guidance - he is right - for me he is absolutely right - except under no circumstances, would I ever resort to a prong collar. I've had two really difficult dogs in my lifetime. The first one I completely failed and when that happens, you never forget. I put in the time with my dogs today - a lot of time - like they are my children. Not once did I ever spank my children - not once - they weren't perfect and they let me down - but I didn't give up or take short cuts. We worked through the issues - we talked alot in our house - I tried to "catch them being good". 

I can say the same approach works with the most unruly Golden. Raising a dog is no casual thing. It is like raising children. Its a commitment every day. And some days you do have to get really creative and think about where they are at in their development. Somedays I'm just not up to it - the energy is wrong - I have to work on myself, too. Sometimes you have to check your thinking with people who know more than you. We're always searching - wanting what is best as parents. 

And I know all parents have their own way. What concerns me is someone who really doesn't know what they're getting into will get a prong collar because they are not all that committed. What concerns me is the sales clerk who gives advice on what equipment to use and she really doesn't know a thing about dogs. And who hasn't taken a class with a trainer who seems to be an expert - but only certain breeds - or who really doesn't seem to know their stuff and everyone in the class is taking it as the gospel. You have to be careful about trainers,too. If you're going for guidance - check the trainer out. In the end, I believe there is no better answer than doing the work every day. 

You have to be patient and keep working and think about what is going on. Its so simple with the lunging business. If you know what makes your dog lunge then don't set them up for failure. Create a distance between you and the other dog or statue or whatever it is. Again, its an everyday thing - and its a lot of work - you live it with them and in doing that you find the solution, sometimes without even realizing it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

This might be repeating myself, but I can't help but reiiterate - because sometimes 'correction' and 'training collars' all get lumped into the same pile. And they shouldn't be. 

A prong isn't entirely like spanking your children. Nor is giving appropriate pop-release corrections with a prong or a choke chain like spanking your children.

An electric zap-collar is. Yanking the dog's head off is. As are ear pinches and whatever else some trainers do. <- If it makes your dog yelp in pain or cower, then imo, it's huge no-no - especially for a golden. 

I've never seen my golden cower (because of a training method, thunder/noises are a different matter) and thank goodness I've never done anything or permitted anything to be done to him that would make him yelp. And I'd clobber the first person that would try to do anything like that to him. As much as I love the sport, I'd quit obedience training in a heartbeat if somebody told me the only way to get a behavior was by pinching my golden or hitting him. 

Most dogs I've seen wearing prong collars at class are not in pain or fearful. This because their trainers are present at class every week and know how to use the collars. That is the big problem elsewhere, in that people put these collars on their dogs without any training and they pull and yank like they would with the regular collar. That creates a fearful and pained dog with an injured neck. 

When I use the prong collar, the only thing it does is it makes the dog give in immediately rather than try pulling out of the collar. It's a quick tug-tug with _two fingers _on my part accompanied with verbal command+encouragement (WALK! YES!!! Good Walk, etc) and he gives in and walks with me until we get around the block to that point in our walk where I'm sure he's done trying to run back home away from gunshots. Then the prong is removed and he goes the next couple miles with a buckle collar. 

That is not punishing or torture. _That is training._ As time goes by, I might remove the prong earlier and earlier, and some point I might not put it on him at all but carry it just in case. 

An w/regards to that training - back when I started, Jacks had to have the prong on the entire three mile walk. We have progressed to the point where I just have it on to get him out of the driveway and up the street. I can then remove it and do any reinforcement/distraction work with just the buckle collar. 

I imagine the other people on this thread are working on the same projects with the prong collars they put on their dogs. It is for training purposes... because sometimes you can't avoid situations that may cause problems for your dog - whether that means a puller like the OP's dog or a balker like my dog.

This is O/T, but I'm gloating about my guy's progress and hope that as he gets older and we get into winter, he will forget this whole gun phobia thing.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Someone referred to the prong collar as power steering. That says it all - it's the easy way out. Disciplining a dog with wisdom and control when he is dragging you down the street is tough. But it can be done without the aid of prong collars. And when I say discipline - to me that means teaching the dog, in a positive way. 

I have a video right here on the forum. My dogs are not perfect - but they can walk off leash with me - and my oldest, you would never know he was the rowdy pup we knew a few years ago. I don't have all the answers - but if I know this about myself - if I had to use a pinch collar, well it goes against my beliefs and if that is what it took, if the pinch was the answer, I wouldn't have a dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Marty's Mom said:


> I have a video right here on the forum. My dogs are not perfect - but they can walk off leash with me - and my oldest, you would never know he was the rowdy pup we knew a few years ago.


Good for you.  

If it worked for your dogs, then obviously there is no reason for you to change your training method. 

Everyone has their own opinions on how to train and might be opinionated about our chosen ways. But the fact is that it's important to find a method and follow through with it so you have well mannered and well adjusted dogs that you can take out in public.

And attending obedience classes with good sane instructors for the first couple years of the dogs' lives works miracles too.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Megora said:


> Good for you.
> 
> And attending obedience classes with good sane instructors for the first couple years of the dogs' lives works miracles too.


for sure 

group hug :bowl: I can't go to sleep feeling negative . . . I think most people - especially those here - are searching for the answers to these problems and doing their best.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Marty's Mom said:


> for sure
> 
> group hug :bowl: I can't go to sleep feeling negative . . . I think most people - especially those here - are searching for the answers to these problems and doing their best.


*grins* No negativity here... it's hard to get points across and explain things without "looking" critical. <- Even when that's not my intention. 

I'm just happy when people are making an effort to train their goldens. Whichever way they do it. As long as it doesn't mean the dogs cowering and yelping or not enjoying training. And of course I want to make sure that people understand that even though my golden wears a glamorous choke chain (it's his silver necklace that vanishes into his fur) while training and I'm a believer of prongs, he's a happy and joyful little guy. As long as it isn't storming.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

Good for you!! I have to admit, it took me awhile before I finally caved and bought one. It is like night and day with Sydney. I dont need it for Paige, but Syd has quite a lot of drive, determination and focus, but its not always on what I would like it to be. I would much rather see somebody use a prong than a chain on a dog that pulls. Its much safer and much more effective. I even perfer it to the gentle leader or halti.

I think it does promote communication between handler and dog and while they are not allowed in an obedience ring, does not mean they are "bad" or shouldn't be used. I use them to teach various things and once my dog has the idea of what it should do, there is no need for it. But somehow along the way, the communication got lost and the dog decided that pulling its owner all over the place was acceptable. I really feel that a prong is a safe and humane way to communicate to the dog that this is not what we want.... especially a dog with a lot of coat around its neck. 

I'm glad that you are seeing results and I feel sad that you had to take him home rather than enjoy the day out with him. I do understand though when you say he's done puppy K and obedience classes. Sydney is a wonderful obedience dog, she simply isn't always obedient. But when you get her in the ring, she's a different dog. But to walk through the neighbourhood, on a loose leash, its a constant battle.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I was told by an AKC judge that the reason prong collars are not allowed in obedience is because they give you too much control over the dog, and showing in obedience is supposed to show your control over the dog without artificial means.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Marty's Mom said:


> Someone referred to the prong collar as power steering. That says it all - it's the easy way out. Disciplining a dog with wisdom and control when he is dragging you down the street is tough. But it can be done without the aid of prong collars. And when I say discipline - to me that means teaching the dog, in a positive way.


Well-said. I agree. If an AP English student tries to read the Cliff Notes instead of the novel itself, it takes all the magic out of reading. I have so much more respect for someone who can train a dog in a flat collar by understanding oppositional reflex, dog training science, and has good timing and a big tool box, than someone who uses a shock collar or a prong. 

Others obviously feel differently, and have different takes on what is humane, what is an ideal relationship with a dog, and what is a training/teaching accomplishment. I think those people are in the majority, here actually. 

Most pet dog golden retrievers can be trained to walk on a loose leash without prong collars. Dogs pull because it works. Any forward motion for pulling is rewarding to the dog. Dogs have an oppositional reflex to pull against steady pressure. Humans are boring and walk slowly in a straight line too much for training. Attention is gold, and there are lots of cooperative ways to make the owner more rewarding than the distractions, even if you don't have a food-motivated dog.

I agree with the comment that it is all much easier if no bad habits develop, and the pup starts off right from the getgo. 

Even in competiton obedience, when I see someone earn an open/ UD leg without electric collars, prongs, and other aversive training techniques, I so admire it. The people whose dogs win, but slink back to front and look petrified retrieving - blech. I don't care what titles they have. There are many dogs in the middle, who work well and enjoy it, but who were trained with prongs, pinches, and ecollars, I freely admit. These owners/handlers have skills far beyond the average pet owner, so while I wouldnt use those methods, I think it is different than pet owners. 

I do admit to being in the minority here on the forum, though in the APDT/CPDT world, aversives are looked on as being "old school" and behind the science. 

In retriever training etc, positive training methods are looked upon as "cookie pushing".

It is a very contrasting view of training.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Even in competiton obedience, when I see someone earn an open/ UD leg without electric collars, prongs, and other aversive training techniques, I so admire it. The people whose dogs win, but slink back to front and look petrified retrieving - blech. I don't care what titles they have.


I don't think you are so far off alone in this opinion though... 

I'm sure people (including me) agree to a certain degree and definition on "aversive" training. 

As far as training to walk on a loose lead and flat... if you do not put a training collar like a prong or a choke chain on your dog until he is at least a year old (as I said in a previous post), in theory (if you attend obedience classes regularly, don't repeat any classes, and graduate Ob 1 and 2 and get into Novice), you have already taught your dog to do an acceptable heel using only a flat collar.


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## acupofteha (Jun 28, 2010)

I would like to let you know, I too have a Prong Collar and Yes, I see a night and Day difference. When we first got this we had to do the corrections a lot, and it slowly has gone down to very little corrections. I am now able to walk Bailey on her harness without her pulling about (80% of the time) I still have her wear the prong as were still working on the Harness walk but I am not using it now. My bailey was like your's were to the point I could not walk her. There is hope that you will not have to use the Prong fall the time.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> That is not punishing or torture. _That is training._ As time goes by, I might remove the prong earlier and earlier, and some point I might not put it on him at all but carry it just in case.


It certainly isn't torture, but it certainly is punishment. Dog pulls, you apply unpleasant pressure to his neck. I don't know how you can look at a ring of dull spikes and assume it works on any principle other than discomfort. That doesn't make it cruel, but it sure ain't fun.

Training takes many forms. I think it is most effective and humane when it eschews discomfort and pain wherever possible. A prong isn't an evil thing, but having watched professionals control and train rowdy dogs over and over and over without one, I simply don't understand why it's _necessary_ for pet owners to use them to teach basic leash manners. There are so many other techniques and games to play with a dog that accomplish the same thing.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> *Most *pet dog golden retrievers can be trained to walk on a loose leash without prong collars.


I wouldn't disagree with this--but the key word is *most* There is a reason why there are so many options when it comes to training a dog, and that is because not all methods work. As is seen over and over again on this forum people try several things before finally settling on the prong and what do a lot of them get? A happier walk!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> It certainly isn't torture, but it certainly is punishment. Dog pulls, you apply unpleasant pressure to his neck. I don't know how you can look at a ring of dull spikes and assume it works on any principle other than discomfort. That doesn't make it cruel, but it sure ain't fun.


True, it isn't the same as stuffing treats in your dogs mouth every few seconds to keep him with you... : 

But I think what I meant is that it isn't the same type of punishment (something giving pain to the recipient) as the one I quoted (spanking your child)... _tightening two fingers on the leash to apply gentle pressure on the dog's neck with rubber tipped prongs_ isn't comfortable (especially since the idea behind the prong is supposed to be the same message as a dominant dog pinning your dog), but you should not be yanking on the leash hard enough to actually cause pain to your dog. If you do, then that is where the prong crosses the line into no-no territory for me.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Megora said:


> An electric zap-collar is. Yanking the dog's head off is. As are ear pinches and whatever else some trainers do. <- If it makes your dog yelp in pain or cower, then imo, it's huge no-no - especially for a golden.


Everyone draws the line in a different place, yet everyone does draw a line between what is training and what is too much punishment. Many people with well-titled retrievers do use Ecollars as a tool and ear pinches/force fetch definitely, and would argue that they are humane. Those people wouldn't endorse kicking a dog in the head. 

It is wonderful you are so proud of your dog- that is a good feeling. 

Positive training works well for anyone who wants a pleasing companion or even a nice Rally Excellent Advanced title or a CD. Higher level titles do take more focused. specific training, but any of the Rally and the AKC novice is attainable by a good pet dog trained cooperatively IMO.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I guess it comes full circle for me when I consider that when used properly--most dogs are just fine on the prong collar. I had to see it and admit it to myself, but now that I have I just don't get the other side that much. I'm sorry, but if a dog can walk around as happy as a clam wearing one and it saves the owners back you'll never convince me that is horrible or inhumane. 

Read the dog, not the tool!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Megora said:


> True, it isn't the same as stuffing treats in your dogs mouth every few seconds to keep him with you... :


That is a real misconception. Treats arent allowed in the AKC rings, yet all the dogs at my feet right now except baby Copley (who does have his CGC) have their CDs. I am babysitting an Aussie and a Corgi belonging to a positive trainer friend, and they have CDX and CD with no aversives in their training. Tally heels like velcro with no treats bc he finds it rewarding. Although I use positive methods to train puppies and new challenges, I dont need to carry treats for them to find work rewarding. I am heading out for a hike with five dogs off leash- no treats needed bc all have rock solid recalls with distractions- even Copley. All will do anything they've mastered with no treats- for example, all, including Copley, will go down on recall from 50 ft without treats, and that is a good feeling. All passed CGC with no treats allowed, and all heel on loose leash automatically, by habit and second nature- no treats, no prongs, no electricity. 

I can't really remember seeing TippyKayak hand out the cookies on a regular basis, but I have seen him recall a crew of goldens many times from picnickers, toddlers, and hikers with other dogs- anything. The handler's skills and motivation to learn new methods and improve skills are the main factor in what equipment a golden needs to be a pleasant companion.

I am always quizzical when dogs with a UD can't go on an off leash hike in a safe, no cars wilderness or to the beach etc. To me, aversive tools are less effective in creating a reliable partnership with a dog in all situations than positive methods. Finn can be recalled from a deer, a group of adoring kids petting him, or anything at all. It is deeply automatic in his behavior. Finn and Tally easily passed their TDI tests with no particular training for it- just their normal.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I will let you know how it works for CDX and the breed ring, lol. We are 1 for 1, so it looks good.


Good luck<:

Jacks and I would be 1 for 1 with a possible win in novice b. If I understood the judge right in our chat after our class, we had a score of 197 before he blew the stays. The high in trial that day was 197.5 (or something like that). 



> That is a real misconception. Treats arent allowed in the AKC rings, yet all the dogs at my feet right now except baby Copley (who does have his CGC) have their CDs.


Sorry... it was just my perception after Ob1 which was a clicker class. Every class we went through a whole big bag of treats. It was crazy for me - especially since I got a cd on my other golden through a program that limited the use of treats to jackpots and wanted more focus on the trainer and praise being the reward.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I think it is more about the concept of marking a rewardable behavior for the dog, then stuffing in the cookies. The beauty of positive training to me, is that the dog learns how to learn and confidently offers behaviors to get to the marked, rewardable one. It becomes a snowball effect in which the dog is easier and easier to teach over his/her lifetime.

I understand though that their are many people who hang out shingles as "positive trainers" but then just cookie push! I can't blame you for thinking that if you had to feed a pup a whole big bag of treats every class.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Everyone draws the line in a different place, yet everyone does draw a line between what is training and what is too much punishment. Many people with well-titled retrievers do use Ecollars as a tool and ear pinches/force fetch definitely, and would argue that they are humane. Those people wouldn't endorse kicking a dog in the head.
> 
> It is wonderful you are so proud of your dog- that is a good feeling.
> 
> ...


Ok, I do want to say that I do think it is possible to not use correction with *some* dogs and get to those levels and maybe even a little higher with good scores. But, that's just it, the key word is *some* Not all dogs are that...easy? Good? Willing? I don't know what to call it. I do think it is possible, but I also think that corrections are necessary with some dogs.


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## zeke11 (Jul 21, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Training takes many forms. I think it is most effective and humane when it eschews discomfort and pain wherever possible. A prong isn't an evil thing, but having watched professionals control and train rowdy dogs over and over and over without one, I simply don't understand why it's _necessary_ for pet owners to use them to teach basic leash manners. There are so many other techniques and games to play with a dog that accomplish the same thing.


The operative word in your statement is: PROFESSIONALS. Professionals can make what they are good at look easy. For instance, I just finished painting a detailed mural in a nursery. It took 15 hours. I did it freehand without the use of grids. Now, I can throw you in that room and tell you to get going and paint a professional mural in 15 hours WITHOUT THE USE OF ANY AIDS. And will that statement suddenly make you have the knack to do so? NOPE!

Any amount of berating you for having to use an aid (like maybe using a grid or a light box) in order to get the job done will not help you to paint a professional mural. However, if it comes down to it and you really need to get the job done and you find that the only possible way is to hire a professional (but that is very expensive) or do it yourself and use aids --- well, then go for it, use aids!

And maybe after you do it for awhile you will eventually pick up the knack and need to use less and less aids. Yes, practicing drawing can and does make you better at it.

So, anyway, I'm NOT a professional dog trainer, I have a very unruly dog. I did take him to obedience class and he did pass both puppy k and basic and did heels, sits, stays, figure eights heeling, etc. But get him on the sidewalk and it's anybody's bet as to whether I will come home with him on the end of the leash or if he will pull me across someone's lawn until I can't hold on any longer. For his safety, for my safety, I need to train him with whatever means works (and I have tried many methods). 

I would venture to say that Duffy has a darn good life here - I'm home with him all day long, he spends very minimal time alone. I let him in and out all day whenever he wants to play in the fenced yard. He has a dog buddy he lives with. He has a basket of toys, he has food puzzles to figure out, he gets the best premium dog food. We take him to the beach to swim. He goes camping. And once a day, I take him for a 10 minute training walk with the prong collar and he does NOT pull or injure himself while wearing it. And when he does NOT pull, I give him treats and praise. When he wears a flat collar, he pulls until he is coughing. It is DEFINITELY more painful to him to wear a flat collar and I will not use a halti, sorry. He is just too impulsive and he could snap his neck with it.

Last night, on our walk he saw a rabbit run across a lawn. He immediately began to bolt and stopped dead in his tracks. And got tons of praise. If he had not been wearing the prong collar, he would probably still be chasing that rabbit and be in another state by now.

He will learn, sooner or later, and I think sooner. Trust me, this collar is not hurting him. He has learned how to walk with it so it does not. Soon I will transition back to the flat collar when I am sure he understands the commands and what is expected. 

Someone suggested that I should not walk him where there will be occasion for him to bolt. To that I say --- ok, I should take him for walks in my living room??? Oh, but wait! I have two cats that regularly hang out in my living room. So I guess we're relegated to taking walks in the bathroom with the door closed - LOL! My point being -- really? Walk him where there won't be occasion for him to pull and bolt? Where - on the moon??:uhoh:

Kris


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"Last night, on our walk he saw a rabbit run across a lawn. He immediately began to bolt and stopped dead in his tracks. And got tons of praise. If he had not been wearing the prong collar, he would probably still be chasing that rabbit and be in another state by now"

Very curious, Did Duffy stop dead in his tracks before he got to the end of a tight leash (loose leash) or was the leash taut?

What made him choose to stop in his tracks?
Did you praise him with the leash tight or loose?


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## zeke11 (Jul 21, 2009)

sorry couldn't get the video to load! anyone know how to load youtube????


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## zeke11 (Jul 21, 2009)

solinvictus said:


> "Last night, on our walk he saw a rabbit run across a lawn. He immediately began to bolt and stopped dead in his tracks. And got tons of praise. If he had not been wearing the prong collar, he would probably still be chasing that rabbit and be in another state by now"
> 
> Very curious, Did Duffy stop dead in his tracks before he got to the end of a tight leash (loose leash) or was the leash taut?
> 
> ...


I stood stock still and waited until he came back to me (thus the leash was now loose) and praised him for the loose leash. This is basically how our walks go. He walks near me, with the leash down in a "j" position. I praise and praise and praise. He begins to move ahead and the leash gets a bit taut. I stop. We wait. He turns back to me, leash goes loose. I praise.


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## janine (Aug 8, 2009)

"Someone suggested that I should not walk him where there will be occasion for him to bolt. To that I say --- ok, I should take him for walks in my living room??? Oh, but wait! I have two cats that regularly hang out in my living room. So I guess we're relegated to taking walks in the bathroom with the door closed - LOL! My point being -- really? Walk him where there won't be occasion for him to pull and bolt? Where - on the moon??:uhoh:"

I haven't read every post...it was getting a little intense and didn't have anything else to add. But I will meet you for the next shuttle trip to the moon!!  And I am bring the prong collar with me just in case.


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## zeke11 (Jul 21, 2009)

LOL! I hear ya! It is either I do not walk this dog at all for fear of losing him or work with him with the prong collar until I can train him. It is not that I'm using the prong TO train him. It is that I need the prong on him so he does not get away from me. While he is wearing the "security necklace" I am teaching him that LOOSE is GOOD! Happy happy happy!

I think you are, at least, on the same page as I am. And it is a very difficult page, is it not??

!!! Kris and the strong neck dog

ps - sorry for the large sig pic - I keep going back to photobucket and editing it smaller and it just doesn't get smaller on my siggy. I just have the hardest time with the siggy thing.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> True, it isn't the same as stuffing treats in your dogs mouth every few seconds to keep him with you... :


Which is not what a positively-based program would be about. I'm not sure how serious you are (there's a smiley there, after all), but that kind of misconception about positively-based approaches is common. If that's what people think it means to train a dog to heel without corrections, then I'm not surprised that it doesn't work.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> I guess it comes full circle for me when I consider that when used properly--most dogs are just fine on the prong collar. I had to see it and admit it to myself, but now that I have I just don't get the other side that much. I'm sorry, but if a dog can walk around as happy as a clam wearing one and it saves the owners back you'll never convince me that is horrible or inhumane.
> 
> Read the dog, not the tool!


I don't agree. Lots of dogs who are hit in the face or beaten with a leash or switch don't look shy. That doesn't automatically mean that hitting a dog is humane. The logic doesn't pan out here.

I'm not equating a prong with a beating, by the way. I think a prong is far more humane.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

zeke11 said:


> The operative word in your statement is: PROFESSIONALS. Professionals can make what they are good at look easy. For instance, I just finished painting a detailed mural in a nursery. It took 15 hours. I did it freehand without the use of grids. Now, I can throw you in that room and tell you to get going and paint a professional mural in 15 hours WITHOUT THE USE OF ANY AIDS. And will that statement suddenly make you have the knack to do so? NOPE!


I use lots of aids, and I certainly am not a professional dog trainer, not by a long shot. The failure in your analogy is that the aid you're using operates on discomfort, and that's the problem with it—not the fact that it's an aid. I'll use an aid during heelwork—like walking next to a fence so the dog keeps a straight line, or using a leash to make sure he doesn't wander off instead of learning to heel. I won't use one that operates on the principle of discomfort, particularly if I have a dog who impulsively lunges and is brought up short by the prong, even a little. 



zeke11 said:


> Any amount of berating you for having to use an aid (like maybe using a grid or a light box) in order to get the job done will not help you to paint a professional mural.


I'm not berating anybody for using an aid. I'm asking people to consider which kind of aid they choose and whether they need the harsher ones.



zeke11 said:


> I would venture to say that Duffy has a darn good life here


Of course he does! Based on what you've said, I'd guess that he has a far, far better life than the average pet dog. I'm participating in this thread to try to get people to reconsider whether positive techniques have really failed them and whether an aversive tool like the prong is really necessary for their dog. It's a gratifying tool that provides instant results, but I strongly question whether it's the best tool for some of these situations. In no way would I suggest that the use of a prong collar makes a person an inferior dog owner.



zeke11 said:


> Someone suggested that I should not walk him where there will be occasion for him to bolt. To that I say --- ok, I should take him for walks in my living room??? Oh, but wait! I have two cats that regularly hang out in my living room. So I guess we're relegated to taking walks in the bathroom with the door closed - LOL! My point being -- really? Walk him where there won't be occasion for him to pull and bolt? Where - on the moon??:uhoh:


I made that suggestion.  I would block the other animals in the house out of a big room for 15 minutes a day and work on positive heeling in the lunge-free environment. No need for lunar landers. Then, when I moved to the backyard, I'd accept the fact that sometimes there'd be a rabbit, and while it was visible, I'd have to pause the training. By then, though, I'd have a reinforced habit I could return to once the distraction had passed, so it wouldn't mean the end of the session.

Classes are even better, since you have a big room full of controlled distractions. 

I haven't met many Goldens more driven and pain-tolerant as Jax and his brother, and without training they'd happily yank your arm out of the socket or strangle themselves for any chance to chase ANYTHING. When I first brought Jax to a training session with six other Goldens, I literally had to lie on him on the floor for fifteen minutes to prevent him from strangling himself on the flat collar. Do I wish I had had a prong then? No. After fifteen minutes of being unable to play, he learned that pulling and freaking out got him nowhere. That gave me space to offer him other rewarding opportunities to play games and earn praise or even food. Now Jax can hang out in a class and behave and even work off lead while other dogs are working across the room (though I won't work with him off leash if somebody else is throwing bumpers 'cause we're not there yet).


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> I can't really remember seeing TippyKayak hand out the cookies on a regular basis, but I have seen him recall a crew of goldens many times from picnickers, toddlers, and hikers with other dogs- anything. The handler's skills and motivation to learn new methods and improve skills are the main factor in what equipment a golden needs to be a pleasant companion.


Depends on the training stage. Sometimes I'm a treat vending machine. By the time the dog has the skill ingrained, the action itself is paired so strongly with all the other reinforcers (praise, toys, games, food) that it reinforces itself. I have a million recall pictures where the dogs are absolutely exuberant to come back, so simply having them do it a few times in a walk helps keep up the skill. And it doesn't hurt to bring cookies once in a blue moon.

I used liverwurst to teach Ojo to try to accelerate his reinforced response to a dog whistle. Magic stuff!




Ljilly28 said:


> I am always quizzical when dogs with a UD can't go on an off leash hike n a safe, no cars wilderness or to the beach etc. To me, aversive tools are less effective in creating a reliable partnership with a dog in all situations than positive methods. Finn can be recalled from a deer, a group of adoring kids petting him, or anything at all. It is deeply automatic in his behavior. Finn and Tally easily passed their TDI tests with no particular training for it- just their normal.


Aside from the partnership aspect, which I agree on, there's a basic tenet of behavioral science that behaviors that are created through aversion are not as durable as behaviors that are created through reinforcement. If a rat hears a beep and then receives a gentle shock from the a metal plate he's on and learns to step off of it onto a plastic button, he will continue to move off the plate when he hears the beep, even if no shock comes. However, the longer he goes without the shock, the more likely he is to "forget" and stop moving at the beep.

If you teach a rat that when he hears the beep, stepping from the metal to the plastic button makes a cookie drop from the ceiling, he'll continue to step to the button at each beep for a long time after you stop dropping cookies. 

In both situations you have the same behavior (rat moves from metal to plastic button at the beep), but the positively trained behavior persists for longer than the negatively trained behavior. This is a basic, Psych 101 principle of behavior science.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> When I first brought Jax to a training session with six other Goldens, I *literally* had to lie on him on the floor for fifteen minutes to prevent him from strangling himself on the flat collar.


'literally' saved you. 

I was about to point out that doing what is essentially an alpha pin on a dog is not that much better than putting "jaws" around your dog's neck.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> 'literally' saved you.
> 
> I was about to point out that doing what is essentially an alpha pin on a dog is not that much better than putting "jaws" around your dog's neck.


Except that the "alpha pin" is a myth and typically not practiced by wolves who aren't trying to kill each other.

And I simply found a safe way to prevent the dog from being rewarded for an undesired behavior. A halti would have worked, as would a harness and some leverage or even a crate.

I was definitely not "alpha rolling" him in any way nor did he calm down because I had "dominated" him. Holding him back did not cause him discomfort at all. Big difference.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I was definitely not "alpha rolling" him in any way nor did he calm down because I had "dominated" him.


Good thing. 

With our first golden we made a very bad mistake in choosing a training facility. This was with a horrible woman who wanted everyone to do ten alpha pins a day to their puppies to teach them who is boss. She had beautiful goldens and all of them were "broken". 

Thankfully, this was before we got the training bug and we were just there to socialize our guy. And because she was hell bent on telling us our dog had to be neutered because we failed to alpha pin him enough or something stupid like that, we went elsewhere with our next dog. 

The alpha pin is rolling your dog on his back and holding him down by the neck, btw. It will either break your dog or you will get bitten.

Technically, holding a dog down is a dominant move, especially if you are holding that dog down until he gives or submits. It isn't the true alpha pin roll though. Certainly, it doesn't cause the same amount of fear or panic in the dog.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I don't agree. Lots of dogs who are hit in the face or beaten with a leash or switch don't look shy. That doesn't automatically mean that hitting a dog is humane. The logic doesn't pan out here.
> 
> I'm not equating a prong with a beating, by the way. I think a prong is far more humane.


That's fine. But I'll stick to my guns. Read the dog. If a method is really aversive and bad for the dog there will be signs.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I am sorry OP that this has blown up all over again. I do not think that you are being inhumane by using a prong collar--and I don't think that the average pet owner shouldn't be allowed to use one. It is too broad a blanket statement and completely unfair to the many pet owners who love and deeply care for their pets, but just can't otherwise walk them without help.

Also, it is totally possible to train loose leash walking with the prong just as it is to train behaviors using food without them becoming reliant on either 'tool.' You just have to know what you are doing.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Training aids are tools, nothing more, nothing less. 
To state that using a prong collar will cause a dog to become aggressive is total nonsense, and the people reading this thread need to know that. There are literally hundreds of thousands of dog owners that use prong collars successfully every single day. 


Leashes, Halti's, Gentle Leaders, Flat Collars, Chain Collars, Prong Collars, Harnesses, Heeling Sticks, Electronic Collars, are all examples of training aids. Each and every one of them are inanimate objects that do nothing without a human to operate it. Each and every one of them can cause harm or death if they are misused. Even the use of treats can be considered harmful when you consider the magnitude of the pet obesity problem. (Causing a pet to suffer joint issues and reduced longevity simply because its' human was stuffing it full of treats is harmful.)


Many would look at a leash and Gentle Leader and assume that it's going to be safe and effective. The name says it all, it's “Gentle” right? Incorrect Assumption.


Many will look at a chain collar, prong collar or electronic collar and assume that they're going to be misused and hurt the dog. They are after all very “mean” looking aren't they? Again Incorrect assumption. 


The problem with advocating the use of training aids is they *all* require instruction to utilize properly. The safe use of some tools can be taught in a few sessions, some others may take considerably longer. Teaching effective use is a whole different ballgame and requires one on one instruction to accomplish for most students. To use any tool or training method effectively (when, why and how), you have to be able to read the subtle signals a dog is giving you. Developing that ability in a handler takes some time and experience to accomplish.


There are many pet dog trainers that advocate treat training and shy away from the use of training aids. Is it effective? Well they can have some degree of success but there are limitations. While the experienced handler is successful with treats because they can read the dog and execute proper timing, a first time dog owner lacks the ability to read the dog/puppy so their timing isn't going to be what is needed and the method not executed successfuly. The result is effectively an untrained dog and a frustrated owner.


The prong collar is not a training method or end unto itself, it is a tool nothing more. In the case of the OP, it is a tool that will enable her to continue allowing the dog to reside in her home, and encourage further training/interaction between dog and handler.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

^^^ Very well said Swampcollie. What grinds my gears more than anything is when I see a prong OR "gentle" leader being used as a "Band-aid". An example is the cattle dog down the street who's owner slaps a prong collar on and then proceeds to let the dog pull down the street while the prongs are digging into his neck non-stop. Said owner asks me why the prong works so much better on my dog - because I used it as a training TOOL, not a band-aid solution. 

I see more people use gentle leaders/haltis this way than any other training device out there. Not sure if they're marketed as more of a "put one on your dog and they'll magically stop pulling" or what, but I HATE seeing dogs pulling on them while the leader is twisted off to the side and digging into their sensitive facial nerves. A dog isn't going to learn not to pull because they pull so hard they can't breathe on their choke chains/prong collars or because the "gentle" leaders/haltis are digging into their face. They need to be taught how to loose leash walk.

Which is why I prefer the prong...Ranger isn't food driven, isn't praise-oriented, is somewhat play oriented, but even play takes a far second seat to tracking a scent - whether on the air or on the ground. I'll remind him to loose leash walk with a verbal cue when he starts getting a little ahead, and then he gets a gentle reminder on the collar if he chooses to not listen to the verbal cue. I tried rewarding with yummy stinky treats and praise when he stays at my side and he used to knock my hand holding the food away from his nose so he could keep "tracking" whatever it is he's tracking. If I held it up away from his nose? He wouldn't even notice. 

And I said it before and I'll say it again, I'd rather give him a slight correction with a prong then have to two-handed haul on the leash with a martingale to get his attention. In that way, I think the prong is more gentle. I use it once a walk and he's fine - the martingale I'd have to use almost every ten feet and put a lot more force behind it before I'd get his attention.









(Photo from Canine Correction)

This is a pic of Ranger working with the behaviourist I called within a few weeks of getting Ranger (not for pulling on leash, but that got fixed, too). Does Ranger look sad or unhappy or scared in this pic? Nope. He looks attentive and relaxed...and he's wearing a choke chain in this picture. I routinely swap between the choke chain and the prong when walking Ranger depending on the day, where we're going, how he's feeling, and how I'm feeling. My mom does a lot of walking with Ranger and she feels safer having the prong on him (there's only about a 30 lb difference in their weights) so she uses it, too - after I showed her how.

I just got back from a 60 min walk with Ranger on a prong collar. He got excited when he saw a rabbit and I thought he mind need a reminder to get his attention back on me. Instead, he sped up a little BUT came back to me before he hit the end of the leash and before getting corrected from the prong. More importantly, he came back, sat at my side and looked at me. I gave him a cookie. Next time we saw a rabbit, I showed him the cookie before the rabbit bolted and gave him his verbal cue. He didn't care and nudged my hand out of his face to stare the rabbit. I put the cookie in the pocket, we walked past the bolting bunny with only pricked ears and a higher head carriage from Ranger, then he relaxed and we continued the rest of the walk in this fashion. Did I need the prong on him? Nope. Did I need the cookie? Nope. If I had needed something, the prong would have been more effective than a cookie - but that's Ranger.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> Training aids are tools, nothing more, nothing You own what you condone. Mike Lardy


I like this quotation, and it is so fitting the Akita and owner I met today. He is dog aggressive, and he recently turned and bit his owner while on a prong collar. In my experience, goldens are forgiving and stable dogs often, and so unfair uses of a prong collar may be tolerated. In other breeds, some dogs will fight fire with fire, redirect aggression toward the owner that was meant for another dog, shut down etc. That doesnt mean it is nice for a golden though. Prong collars can be very arousing to a certain kind of dog and prong colars/ ecollars can help confirm the world is a scary place to fearful/ anxious dogs. This lady has been working with a trainer who calls himself the Dog Whisperer of New England, and advocates the use of prongs and ecollars. I do feel she now owns what she has condoned.


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## zeke11 (Jul 21, 2009)

thank you Swampcollie and Ranger's Dad. 

Just for the information of all -- Duffy did take basic obedience. When the instructor recommended dogs wear a prong collar, I refused. Duffy did learn to heel, about turn and figure eight without one. But I was present in the class when she instructed on the proper way to use a prong collar so I do have that knowledge.

As far as training him to walk nicely without distraction -- well, guess what? He does! He passed basic obedience. The video I tried to post shows him walking nicely around the figure eight cones.  So every day, Duffy and I practiced heeling in our yard and went to class once a week. He learned how to heel. Get him out on the sidewalk and all bets are off.

I have spent since day one, trying to teach him to walk nicely out in public on the sidewalk, using the same techniques that worked in obedience class. That's months of trying, meanwhile he is growing, developing and is now way stronger than me and almost stronger than my husband (my husband has had to wrap the leash around his waist at times and hold it with both hands in order to keep Duffy from breaking away). And once, Duffy did manage to yank the leash out of my husband's hands.

So, with this in mind, remember that it is either Duffy only gets walked in the yard behind a fence OR I use an aid that keeps him from getting away from me and keeps him walking with a loose leash so that I can further work on not pulling. It's that simple. There is no lesser aid I can use that I feel safe taking him out of the yard. And working in the yard is of no use - he is fine there. When he gets out and starts tracking and sniffing and smelling all kinds of wonderful new things, he gets low to the ground and digs in. 

I need to get him out there, where he has the problem, in order to work on correcting it. I cannot do so safely and humanely with a regular flat collar. He chokes himself and runs the risk of breaking away and getting lost or hit by a car.

It is really that simple. I am not an ogre, either. I would never ever harm my dogs.

Kris


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> I like this quotation, and it is so fitting the Akita and owner I met today. He is dog aggressive, and he recently turned and bit his owner while on a prong collar.


So it is your feeling that every dog should be trained with the "assumption" that it possess an underlying aggression problem?

I can not and will not accept that as sound basis for making training decisions.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> Ok, I do want to say that I do think it is possible to not use correction with *some* dogs and get to those levels and maybe even a little higher with good scores. But, that's just it, the key word is *some* Not all dogs are that...easy? Good? Willing? I don't know what to call it. I do think it is possible, but I also think that corrections are necessary with some dogs.


Some dogs can't attain a MH or UDX with all the FF, prongs and ecollars in the world no matter what a human does! I just had coffee with one of my favorite golden owners who is a wonderful trainer in her 60's.. She is one of the only people I know to cross over to positive methods completely on the ground floor of that science, and she has done UCDX HR SR UDT, MH, WCX ** with her dog- no ecollar, no choke or prong ( though yes FF). She truly believes it is a better way for a dog to experience his world, his training, and his relationship with humans, and I agree. What's it all for? If I can have fun doing CDX with my golden, but I need a prong collar to do UDX, then what is the UDX really for? Not the dog's happiness or quality of life.

The OP just wants to walk her dog and have a nice time rather than be pulled down the streets, not compete. I have yet to meet a golden who can't learn to walk on a loose leash without a prong collar. It's great if the prong collar solves all the problems overnight and people cheer it as power steering. I wonder though, how the dog experiences it, what happens if another loose dog rushes up and the owner yanks on the leash, if the dog gets loose himself, if the dog needs to be walked somewhere in a regular collar under special circumstances, and if the ultimate training/ teaching relationship between owner and dog will be experienced by either? I hope the OP will work with a skillful CPDT-KA trainer and work toward a nice CGC before thinking the prong is the best solution. Obviously though, that is up to the OP.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> So it is your feeling that every dog should be trained with the "assumption" that it possess an underlying aggression problem?
> 
> I can not and will not accept that as sound basis for making training decisions.


Of course not, I am saying that every dog should be trained with sound science and as much education and skill as the owner can muster. I have yet to read any current science in animal behavior that suggests prong collars as training tools. I would love to see some though. 

Of course, you might not send your dog to me for training, and I might not send my dog to you for training. 

I did grow up with goldens who hunted with my grandfather, and he taught me lots of ideas about fair and "sportsmanlike" treatment of dogs and horses. He was an officer in the cavalry in WWII right when horse turned into tanks, and an avid sportman. He never believed in the rough handling of animals, and it rubbed off even more than any CPTD training. He insisted anyone who wounded a deer or bird find it, he insisted that when a horse he could ride in a snaffle needed a curb, then that was too much horse for you right then, he taught me feed the dogs and horses before you feed yourself. I guess I feel that way about addressing a young pulling golden with a prong collar rather than training him to walk properly- it's not sportsmanlike. 

I agree with you that if it is a choice between walks on a prong collar and rehoming the dog, the prong might be better. 

If you're a rider with heavy hands, you can force your horse to engage with the bit by using side reins, you can overbit him (prong collar), you can be scared and have him be above the bit and dropping his back to get away from you, or you can dedicate yourself to improving your hands& horsemanship.

Yes, a very skilled rider with wonderful skills can transform horse and use side reins, draw reins, or any kind of bit(almost)- and those become tools rather than cheating the process. 

I definitely don't mind if you don't accept that. I like that this forum has so many battles. The battle between people who keep outside dogs V inside dogs, who breed their pet or don't believe in breeding pets- it is all good. 

I nonetheless agree with your quotation of ML that it tends to be "owning and condoning". The quick fix is rarely the end of it. Otherwise, I wouldnt have so many clients on my voicemail. Use too many aversives, get a dog who trusts you less.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

I know I am overly emotional right now, but I am so tired of being made to feel cruel and like a "bad" dog mom because I use prong collars on my dogs. A prong collar was designed to mimic a mother dog's correction of nipping her pups on the back of their necks when they got out of line. It was never intended to use pain as control. It is way more about focus and paying attention to the owner. My dogs have wonderful lives, way better than a lot of children. JOY and I had a relationship that I could not ever even hope to have with a person. I have made this decision afters years, decades actually, of training and trying different things. I would never do ANYTHING that would harm my dogs and you really insult me when you imply that I do.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

No one can make you feel any particular way, especially strangers writing on the internet. People protest that when the forum takes a stand against outside dogs, dogs bred without titles/ clearances, lots of things. I've often had things I believe in bashed by the forum, and while it is no fun, it is not a personal attack. Hopefully, you have confidence in yourself and your own experience, or you wouldnt be having it with your dog. This is a hot topic, one about which people have contrasting ideas. It is clear the majority of posters are for using prong collars. However, I will sign off this thread now and try to resist peeking at it again, because I do feel badly if someone's feelings are hurt.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> If I can have fun doing CDX with my golden, but I need a prong collar to do UDX, then what is the UDX really for? Not the dog's happiness or quality of life.


What?! Because any person that has ever put a prong collar on his dog had a lesser relationship with their dog? The quality of life for the dog was poorer? Sorry, I 100%+ disagree. I would venture to say that probably anyone who can obtain a UDX with happy dog--prong collar or no--must have a great relationship with their dog. And watching some videos of them--have a special connection that goes beyond the connection of the average competitor who will never get close to such heights.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

GoldenSail said:


> What?! Because any person that has ever put a prong collar on his dog had a lesser relationship with their dog? The quality of life for the dog was poorer? Sorry, I 100%+ disagree. I would venture to say that probably anyone who can obtain a UDX with happy dog--prong collar or no--must have a great relationship with their dog. And watching some videos of them--have a special connection that goes beyond the connection of the average competitor who will never get close to such heights.


 

Each owner has to decide what the goals and aspirations are for their dog. Some set lofty goals, others not so much. Do they want a nice pet or are they looking for a competition dog? How you approach training can/does vary a great deal depending upon where you're trying to get to.


Each owner will also have to define the relationship that they're seeking to build with their dog. Are they seeking a buddy, surrogate child, or perhaps an employee. 


Each owner will also develop for themselves a sense of “what is reasonable” when it comes to time frame for accomplishing goals and hitting various benchmarks along the way. Some owners have a lot of patience as long as some progress is being made. Others may expect a certain degree of progress in a given number of weeks and not meeting the goal is unacceptable. 


These are basic expectations that each owner defines for themselves and nobody can do it for them.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> Each owner will also have to define the relationship that they're seeking to build with their dog. Are they seeking a buddy, surrogate child, or perhaps an employee.
> .


Wow-that is a fantastic comment: wise, wryly funny, and very true.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I am just catching up now. It has been an interesting discussion. Nothing could ever change my mind about the prong collar. We all have a different frame of reference and I don't judge anyone here. 

I never set out on this loving journey for a best buddy, an employee, or a surrogate child. Our dogs are part of our family. I have wonderful friends and my children are my heart. But our goldens - - - they are really special to all of us in this household. Our positive connection with them evolved into something really beautiful - can't define it - can't imagine our lives without them. 

I have been a mom a long time and like most moms, I have got a good bag of tricks. I apply what I know about raising children - what I know about people - to raising dogs. It works for me. I use my resources - moms are very good at that. I have to say I'm **** good at it. I was born to be a mom - I'm a teacher - I'm a nurturer - and I can do better than the prong collar. 

I would put just as much of my heart and soul into my three goldens if they were competing. I don't understand the comment that implied basically depending on what you want the outcome to be, you put that much into it. I'm tired . . . but thats how I interpreted it. Quite honestly, I do believe Melody and Gracie could compete in the obedience ring and do quite well. For me, I'd rather take them swimming and exploring. That's a personal choice - but it doesn't mean I am allowed to take their well-being less seriously or put less time or thought into their training. 

To Jill and TippyKayak, I so admire you from afar - I have for three years. My heart is right with you. Its like I have shared the very same experiences. Thats what makes this so difficult - I feel such passion about the care and treatment of our dogs. Jill and TippyKayak thank you for the insight and perspective you bring. Perhaps some will think about it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Little brag that falls in line somehow here... took my guy for his usual evening walk, and got to carry the prong the whole way. I did have to urge him a little, but the flat collar sufficed. <- I don't think I would be at this point were it not for the training and 'pushing through' time the prong gave me. Goldens can be stubborn when they want to be, and when it really isn't for their own good. So since July I've been putting that prong collar on him and forcing him to come with me whether he likes it or not. Between the prong and my letting him mark every single mailbox and tree in sight, I think we've survived the summer. Huzzah.



> Each owner will also have to define the relationship that they're seeking to build with their dog. Are they seeking a buddy, surrogate child, or perhaps an employee.


Mine is my baby and my teammate - that's how I define it. 

When I'm at home or going around wherever, I care for him, protect him, and yep... I give him tough love when it is necessary. Generally that is scolding him when he's being a ninny and forcing him to do something that is for his own good, regardless of what he thinks. 

When we are going to class or training, then we are teammates. 

And sometimes it is both at the same time... as I'm one of those golden owners who is perfectly happy to hold an 80 lb golden retriever in her lap while waiting our turn on the floor. 

And as far as being homebodies with your dog and training so you don't have to worry about your dog running away or worse overpowering somebody else with less strength (my older parents are my guy's caretakers during the day while I'm at work) - any reasonably humane method that works quickly and ensures the safety of both your dog and whoever is walking him is worth it.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

Megora said:


> any reasonably humane method that works quickly and ensures the safety of both your dog and whoever is walking him is worth it.


BINGO... That's pretty much exactly it for me. Sydney can (and will) plow over kids as though they're bowling pins. Paige is very cautious of and gentle with kids. Both girls LOVE kids, but that's just Sydney.... she's a great dog, but very "ALL OR NOTHING". I think if you are comfortable using it, then all the power to you. Before I purchased mine, I took out a few links and sized it to my arm and gave it a couple pretty good jerks. If I'm going to put it on my dog, I want to know what it feels like first. That's what sold it for me, and the fact that my dog respects the collar. It truthfully doesn't hurt... its "different", but isn't painful. I dont NEED it in an obedience ring, because when we walk in the ring, she knows the job. The problem is her understanding of the job walking down the street is a little clouded at times, depending on the mood she's in. Buckle collars can hurt dogs too, just as a prong, choke, halti or whatever, if used improperly. I think there are many dogs that, once you effectively communicate to them EXACTLY what you want, they will follow suit (like my Paige). Then there are the other types like you describe (stubborn when they want to be, getting their own ideas of what they should do... my Sydney to a mark). I find it rather interesting how some dogs are able to turn the things off, and ignore them completely and act as though they aren't wearing the things. I know of a rather large male yellow lab whose owner is constantly jerking on the thing, and the dog just motors on as though she's a feather at the end of the lead, paying no attention to her :doh:. I'm just thankful that my dog isn't *that* stubborn and I can at least convince her that while my idea may not be a "good one", that she should at least give it some consideration. BJ


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I really like this post. So very well said.




Swampcollie said:


> Each owner has to decide what the goals and aspirations are for their dog. Some set lofty goals, others not so much. Do they want a nice pet or are they looking for a competition dog? How you approach training can/does vary a great deal depending upon where you're trying to get to.
> 
> 
> Each owner will also have to define the relationship that they're seeking to build with their dog. Are they seeking a buddy, surrogate child, or perhaps an employee.
> ...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> That's fine. But I'll stick to my guns. Read the dog. If a method is really aversive and bad for the dog there will be signs.


I'm using the word "aversive" to refer to the nature of the tool or method. It's aversive if the dog changes his behavior in order to avoid it. Pulling on the prong doesn't feel good, so the dog learns not to do it. I'm not using the word as a judgment on the moral character of the thing, simply describing the way it works.

I agree that there are signs, but I don't think there's always an obvious shyness or a broken look.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

ANY collar can be bad for a dog in bad hands....


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I just wanted to add two more cents: 

I know there's some disagreement about the use of prongs to teach loose leash skills, but can we at least agree that if it becomes the dog's lifetime walk collar, there's a problem? Everybody's goal is a dog who is controlled by the strength of his habits and his relationship with the handler, right? I want a dog I can leash with a piece of string or hand to a six year old and who thinks the loose leash game is the greatest game ever.

If that's the goal, then my philosophy in this matter boils down to two pieces: first, I believe that positive methods, including treats, praise, toys, creative techniques, and excellent timing actually work better than aversive methods. What I understand of behavioral science and my own experience back up that belief.

Second, I believe that I'm a better trainer when I can eschew an aversive method in favor of a positive one. I'd rather have my dog doing something because it's rewarding than doing it to avoid an aversive. That doesn't mean the use of an aversive is abusive, but simply that I choose to try to find ways to avoid them whenever possible, and the more I learn, the more success I have in doing that. 

And I don't think anybody in this thread has said that people who use a prong are bad owners. Quite the contrary. We can argue against the method and point out its potential problems without casting judgment on anybody who uses it.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I just wanted to add two more cents:
> 
> I know there's some disagreement about the use of prongs to teach loose leash skills, but can we at least agree that if it becomes the dog's lifetime walk collar, there's a problem? Everybody's goal is a dog who is controlled by the strength of his habits and his relationship with the handler, right? I want a dog I can leash with a piece of string or hand to a six year old and who thinks the loose leash game is the greatest game ever.
> 
> ...


First, I would agree that it is a great goal to move away from using the prong collar for walks. 

Secondly, you often say in posts that aversives aren't strong as positives. Those studies have been criticized, and rightly so. You have also admitted in other threads that what happens in real life--the relationship between dogs and people--goes beyond what can ever be tested in the lab.

Thirdly, while no one has said it directly, words like 'inhumane', 'not sportsmanlike', and comments suggesting people would rather not have a dog than use a prong collar all suggest that the use of a prong collar is not acceptable, or abusive to the dog, IMO. I honestly think it makes a lot of posters feel bad.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Megora said:


> Little brag that falls in line somehow here...


I'll add.  There is a lady in my area who was fostering this corgi who they failed twice to adopt and he kept coming back. After the second failed attempt, she decided to keep him herself. Being a dog person, she began training him for obedience competition.

This past summer, that little rescue corgi became an OTCH (in just 18 months, to boot) and he is the #1 corgi right now for obedience. I saw him and his handler at our Plan C match playing with toys and each other in the ring. I've seen that same dog in practice wearing...you betcha....a prong. You would never know it watching them in the ring, they are so much fun together. They adore each other.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> Secondly, you often say in posts that aversives aren't strong as positives. Those studies have been criticized, and rightly so. You have also admitted in other threads that what happens in real life--the relationship between dogs and people--goes beyond what can ever be tested in the lab.


Certainly there are different ways of studying different aspects of positive and negative stimuli, and the situation does become very complex. However, I don't think there's a lot of disagreement in behavioral science about the durability of positively reinforced behaviors as opposed to negatively reinforced behavior, and I think any dog trainer or behaviorist will tell you that if a dog is ONLY negatively reinforced, the behavior won't be very durable.

It's a grayer area when you talk about combining the two. You may get through some stages of a behavior faster if you use aversives. I choose to turn to creativity or experts instead of to aversives when it comes to withholding reinforcement for undesired behaviors or creating opportunities for rewards.

And the part of the relationship with dogs that goes beyond simple behavioral science is the part I'm trying to protect by not using fear, intimidation, pain, or discomfort when I don't absolutely have to. If you conclusively proved to me tomorrow that a dog would learn a loose leash faster with a combination of cookies and slaps to the head, I still wouldn't slap my dog to the head, even if I was very confident that it wouldn't make him shy (and with Jax, it wouldn't. You could beat that dog with a hose and it wouldn't make him headshy). Still, I choose not to risk our relationship in that way.

I used to think that a crucial part of training recall was that first time the puppy knew better but still blew me off. I'd run over and tackle the dog with a big "NO!" to teach him that I could enforce my recall command. I thought that negative reinforcement was a key piece of solid recall. I was wrong! I've trained a couple of dogs on recall now without that piece, and they're as solid as the older dogs who got the "wrath of god" moment. The reinforcement for the behavior and the repetition is what made the recall habit so deeply ingrained, not a fear of the consequences. So I got rid of that piece, and I'm happier and a better trainer for it.



GoldenSail said:


> Thirdly, while no one has said it directly, words like 'inhumane', 'not sportsmanlike', and comments suggesting people would rather not have a dog than use a prong collar all suggest that the use of a prong collar is not acceptable, or abusive to the dog, IMO. I honestly think it makes a lot of posters feel bad.


For me, it isn't humane. I do not like the idea that I'm making people feel bad, but I also have no way of saying why I don't use it without saying the reasons I won't. It's on the other side of the line I've drawn between humane and inhumane, particularly when it comes to basic manners. I may be wrong about that, and obviously lots of humane, effective trainers use it and have great results. Saying that I won't put it on my dog because it doesn't feel humane to me doesn't mean that I automatically would define anybody who uses it as an inhumane trainer.

I think each of us that has said the prong does not fit our definition of humane, good dog training has been equally careful to say that the use of it does not make an owner a bad person or the dog an abused dog.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I really don't want to argue anymore, but I don't think you can use the argument that (what I assume if we are trying to be PC) punishment only will not create durable behaviors, I think the same can be said for only using positive reinforcement. Largely because I think the exclusive use of only one or a few quadrants is unrealistic by any standards. Although, I think history would show that behaviors were durable with some dogs that were trained with largely a heavy hand (thankfully not so much anymore). I know Guide Dogs for the Blind used to only use chain choke collars, no food, no toys, the only reinforcer being praise. Still, they were successful at training durable behaviors that were solid enough that a dog could be given to a blind person and work solidly for its lifetime. Granted, there were some dogs that couldn't fit that mold but some dogs can't fit the all positive mold ideally either (as evidenced by many that have tried and failed). I think if you are willing to adapt to the dog you will get greater success.

You guys are entitled to your opinions, but I find it odd that you think using a prong collar is inhumane but also agree it is better than not walking a dog at all. IMO, if a prong collar is inhumane than a dog would be better off not being walked then being subject to it, which is not what I believe.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> You guys are entitled to your opinions, but I find it odd that you think using a prong collar is inhumane but also agree it is better than not walking a dog at all. IMO, if a prong collar is inhumane than a dog would be better off not being walked then being subject to it, which is not what I believe.


There are degrees of things. Never doing anything for your dog is a lot more inhumane than using a prong because not taking your dog anywhere ever is pretty bad, not because a prong is pretty good.

Maybe "inhumane" was never the right word. It is a tool that is harsher and more aversive than the tools I think are appropriate or necessary for training basic manners. I wouldn't use it, and I would advise others not to use it.


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## zeke11 (Jul 21, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> What?! Because any person that has ever put a prong collar on his dog had a lesser relationship with their dog? The quality of life for the dog was poorer? Sorry, I 100%+ disagree. I would venture to say that probably anyone who can obtain a UDX with happy dog--prong collar or no--must have a great relationship with their dog. And watching some videos of them--have a special connection that goes beyond the connection of the average competitor who will never get close to such heights.


Yeah, isn't that quite the presumptions statement there? Even though my dog does not have a UDX and I do use a prong collar for training purposes, we have a fabulous relationship! Which we wouldn't have if I didn't use one because after he saw that rabbit the other day, I probably wouldn't know where he is right now!

Kris


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Someone at work allerted me to this website. Even though it focuses on shock collars which are obviously different, some of the studies talk about punishment methods in general and the prong specifically. Not sure if anyone here has access to these studies but they may prove good reading.

banshockcollars.ca - Studies


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

jackie_hubert said:


> Someone at work allerted me to this website. Even though it focuses on shock collars which are obviously different, some of the studies talk about punishment methods in general and the prong specifically. Not sure if anyone here has access to these studies but they may prove good reading.
> 
> banshockcollars.ca - Studies


I'll check into it later.  

While I think a lot of people use shock collars without any problems - including a lot of people here. I don't think any electrical shock collar should be put on a dog. Including invisible fencing collars. 

Everything that Tippykayak and others say about prong collars and the 'pain' and 'discomfort' falls right in line with what I think of zap collars. It's freakydeaky to me that anyone would put that on their pet. :no:


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

jackie_hubert said:


> Someone at work allerted me to this website. Even though it focuses on shock collars which are obviously different, some of the studies talk about punishment methods in general and the prong specifically. Not sure if anyone here has access to these studies but they may prove good reading.
> 
> banshockcollars.ca - Studies


 
If you look at the dates of the supporting documentation for the article you'll find studys as old as the 1950's. The "Shock Collars" they're talking about haven't been made for over 50 years. They were essentially a cattle prod attached to a collar. They were used in some experimental training programs for security and service dogs. 

The Owner of that website would like to convince people that those collars from the past are the same as the electronic collars that are available to the public today. 

They are not.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Sorry but if I wouldn't put a shock collar on my son or another person, I am not going to put it on my dog. I know some people do, and hey that's you but it's not for me.

Our biggest struggle is walking as well - although he has a perfect wait when I'm standing still for long periods of time. I just keep chugging away at it, hoping that as his town walking has improved greatly, that there is hope for new places. 

I understand what it's like to come to the end of your rope - I remember swearing I'd never use a martingale and yet, out of desperation to find something that worked and was mostly positive. I have to admit, it helped but it didn't fix it at all. 

Instead of going to something less positive, I've decided, ah, flick it, I'm going back to his harness and keep doing the stop and go. It's taking forever but he has been improving on that over time. I know it's not going to be a quick fix but I personally couldn't use a prong or choke collar on Max. I also wasn't willing to put my son on meds to make his teachers job easier - took the time for him to learn ways to control himself as it's a permanent fix although it took a long time - he has grown so much.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> ...I find it odd that you think using a prong collar is inhumane but also agree it is better than not walking a dog at all. IMO, if a prong collar is inhumane than a dog would be better off not being walked then being subject to it, which is not what I believe.


Very interesting point! Actually, there are LOTS of good points on each side of this thread - I love discussions like this.

Back on topic, I agree with GoldenSail's comment. If we replace "prong collar" with "kick in the ribs", then I'm sure the majority of people will agree that not only is that inhumane but also that the dogs would be better off not getting walked at all. 

I can't say for all prong users, but my goal with using the prong collar is not necessarily to NEVER have to put one on my dog again, but rather that I can lessen the frequency of using it on walks. Like my hour long walk yesterday - Ranger got a self-inflicted tug when I did a 180 and he chose to not pay attention. After that, he stuck like glue. If I had to use it 20 times in a walk, then I'd say it wasn't working and I should best look elsewhere. 

Unfortunately, a prong collar is what I (and lots of others) have had to use to get it through the mind of a dog that it would be beneficial to stay close to me while walking. Now, Ranger's progressed to the point where I probably could use a martingale or harness or whatever and he'd walk close to me 90% of the time. That, to me, is how I know my training has worked. I'm lessening the aids, rather than increasing them and still have a dog who chooses to listen to me.

Do I think the prong is inhumane? Definitely not. Everyone's talking about putting it around their arms and testing it? I put it around my neck to test it out! Snapped the leash hard (harder than I ever do with Ranger) and it didn't hurt. Surprised me, yes. Hurt? No. I had no marks on my neck and trust me people, I bruise like a peach. It LOOKS severe and it has a bad name "pinch" or "prong"...as opposed to the so-called "gentle leader". 

I agree with the statement that any tool can be misused. If a tool isn't used as a tool but as a band-aid solution, then that's a problem. But condemning people or saying people have a bad relationship with their dog because they use it? That seems over the top. My dog is my loved and trusted companion - I use a prong collar on him so he'd pay attention and learn his manners so I could take him everywhere with me. We spend more time out and about now than we did a year ago when I was trying to get him walk nicely using cookies and praise in a martingale collar. It worked for us, just like it worked for the OP, and if we can appreciate our dogs more WHILE they are in training to become well-mannered dogs...I don't see anything wrong with it.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

jackie_hubert said:


> Someone at work allerted me to this website. Even though it focuses on shock collars which are obviously different, some of the studies talk about punishment methods in general and the prong specifically. Not sure if anyone here has access to these studies but they may prove good reading.
> 
> banshockcollars.ca - Studies


See no evil. Read no evil. Cite no evil. « Smartdogs' Weblog

...and there is always another side. This article is fantastic, IMO, and by someone who went out of their way to try and find every study done on using shock collars and then analyze them (weakness and strengths). Of special interest is the study that used ecollars to rehabilitate aggressive dogs. Yup, no joke, an actual published study where ecollars were used to eliminate aggressive behaviors on all of the study dogs.


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