# Immediate whelping concern - help!



## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Good morning folks. Today was a difficult day. Our girl Tibbie had her first litter. We were braced for the fact that she only had 3 pups, which was a disappointment because we are/were planning to keep a good girl from the litter. The new puppies owners have been screened and approved and we are so happy about the homes they will be going to. Here's my emergent problem. The first puppy was breech - and huge. 1.5 oz. I was not alone, Tibbie's breeder and their very experienced "puppy nanny" attended the birth. After two hours of active labor I contacted the vet and I had to pull the boy out. I thought he would be dead, but he is a robust giant. We had an average sized girl a couple of hours later, and then another breech - a very small male, 11 ounces. Here's the problem. Tibbie will have nothing to do with the puppies. She didn't eat, would't eat the placenta, turned her nose up in disgust. She has not licked them, has not cleaned them, has not sniffed them. She has growled toward them twice. I am being understandably protective of them, and patient and loving toward her. I don't leave any of them out of my sight. She is willing to nurse, but just to lay quietly while they suck. She acts like they aren't even there, and I'm afraid her milk will dry up due to her lack of response. The tiny boy is having a hard time, and I am trying to supplement him but he isn't vibrant yet. I am thinking about tube feeding him later, if I don't think he's taking more in. I am cleaning them, peeing and pooping them, and am willing to continue feeding around the clock if need be. What, if anything, can I do to encourage her to be a mom? We are crestfallen. I am thinking that the first birth was just so terribly traumatic to her, that she was turned off by the entire experience. I can't blame her, it was a rough one. Any guidance will be greatly appreciated.


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## MikaTallulah

This needs to be moved to the breeders section or emeregency. I would repost there.

Maybe she is just super tired.

I hope your little family makes out okay. My Cozy was a great mom even with a cleft plate puppy we tried supplementing to keep alive. She would leave the other pups every time we needed to feed him. She was very attentive.


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## goldhaven

I noticed that this thread started at 3:21 AM, way past my bedtime. I am hoping that the problem has resolved itself and you, Tibby and the pups are getting some much needed rest. 
If not, you might want to consider a vet visit. The only time I know of a female not wanting anything to do with the pups was when there was something wrong with the pups. There might also be something going on with mom. A vet visit would rule this out. Other than something medical, I have no idea what could be going on with your girl but a vet might be able to give you some advice on how to proceed. 
Good luck and when you get a minute, post some pics of the pups.


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## Buddy's mom forever

Sending prayers for mom and her puppies, hope everything is going well.


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## CarolinaCasey

You need to get her to a vet to be sure she isn't starting with mastitis or an infection. What is her temperature? 

Call your vet and ask!


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## MikaTallulah

I hope we get an update soon. Praying mama and babies are doing well.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

*Crazy Week*

Hello GRF friends - I thank you all so much for your excellent ideas. I was sure that my girl was not ill, by negative findings on palpation of the mammary glands, normal temp, normal stools, water and food intake. I also did talk to my vet who said that "most bitches have the mothering chip", but that she had in fact seen a few that didn't. Some hours after I placed my original post, she began to sniff toward the pups, and 24 hours later was more relaxed when they nursed, and would allow them to explore around her, but still did not clean or comfort them with her tongue. Luckily, my husband stayed with the pups while I attended a local kennel club meeting about 48 hours after their birth. I related to them the events of the two days, focusing on my girl's reluctance to have contact with the pups other than nursing. And elderly lady in attendance said, "Have you tried peanut butter." I thought, 'GREAT!", as PB is one of her favorite things. I came home and put a light smear over several areas of their bodies - forehead, paws, perineum, belly, and within two seconds she was licking them all with abandon and did for most of the night. By morning she was even better, and remained a mostly better mom, though still not as attentive as I would have liked to have seen. She would prefer to be in the house with my husband and I than with her pups in the attached garage - even though the box is well within sight and hearing, and we spend most of the entire day there. Then yesterday happened, and it was heartbreaking. I was sitting next to the box doing some paperwork. She was in the box with the pups and the last time I had looked - maybe 10 minutes - was content and nursing. Suddenly I heard a low short growl, then one ferocious bark/snap, and a puppy started to scream. I was shocked and horrified to look down and see a pup - the biggest and most beautiful - writhing about 18 inches from her head, with something laying next to him. I picked it up, and it was his left ear. She had neatly amputated about 3/4 of it. There was very little blood, lots of screaming, and you could tell that she knew she had done something horrible, as she was very amputated. Seeing that no pressure needed to be applied, I got her to lay down and I put the puppy on her breast to calm him, which worked, as my husband called our vet. I was so upset that I was glad that he volunteered to take the puppy - and the ear - to the vet who offered to meet him at her office in 10 minutes. It took a while to calm Tibbie down, she was looking for the puppy the whole time they were gone. They returned about an hour later. Of course the ear could not be reattached. But the vet had neatened up the bite line and closed it with suture. The puppy was put back to nurse, and Tibbie licked him and acted very nurturing. Needless to say, we realized that we could not risk another injury, and I sat with her all night watching her behavior with them. I did not have a muzzle handy, but this morning (Sunday) my husband went down to the store and got one, which we will keep on the box and apply whenever she enters it again. Once again, she is showing no aggression toward the puppies, but does not "hang out" in the box with them either. My husband and I have agreed that we will not breed her again, and when the vet called back to check on us today, we discussed spaying her. This has been such a heartbreak, as by all accounts she has been the most gentle and loving of dogs. We will continue to pursue activities outside of mothering in which she might excel, like rally and field. We will keep her female puppy, as she bears a great resemblance to her father. When I have read posts about aggressive mothers in the past, a typical response has been to chastize the breeder for breeding this ill fit dog. How, I ask, would a breeder know such a thing about a dog who has never manifested any aggression toward anything or anyone? Who has been nothing but intensely loyal and gentle? Our hearts are broken, but we will go on and give our girl the good life that she - and all of us deserve. Thanks again for your responses, and I look forward to reading your feedback.


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## Megora

Honestly... I'd keep the one-eared dog and use that as a reminder every time I think about getting back into breeding. ! Beyond that, won't it be difficult placing a one-eared puppy?


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## Swampcollie

How old is your girl?


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

*aggressive mom*

Hi and thanks for your responses.
My girl turned three on the 4th of July, just four days before she whelped. We have a smaller, younger dog that she has been patient with, despite the pups annoying and more aggressive behavior toward her. 
When it comes to placing the one-eared puppy, all I have to say is, "God is good!" The puppy had already been placed with a lovely family who drank in the daily emails and pic/video clips I'd sent them since just prior to the whelping. When my husband and I sat down last evening and called them, and explained what had happened and the severity of it, their immediate response was, "We don't care if her has two ears, one ear, or no ears. He is our 'Bear' and we love him already!" My husband and I got off of the phone and just cried that Bear would have such a loving forever home.


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## nolefan

CinnamonGoldenGirl said:


> How, I ask, would a breeder know such a thing about a dog who has never manifested any aggression toward anything or anyone? Who has been nothing but intensely loyal and gentle? Our hearts are broken, but we will go on and give our girl the good life that she - and all of us deserve. Thanks again for your responses, and I look forward to reading your feedback.


I don't think a breeder could ever be 100% sure about anything, which is why it's such a risky process. I have learned enough over the years that I wouldn't ever put myself or my dog through this process, and if it was a dream of mine I would only ever even consider it if I had a mentor with years of experience to hold my hand and walk me through the process. 

I've followed this thread and am sorry for your heartbreak. Is there anyway to move the whelping box out of the garage and into the main area of the house? If the mother is a house dog, maybe she would feel a bit calmer in the house with her family. Has the vet given you any other feedback on how to manage this safely until the puppies are older? 


I am so glad to hear that you plan to spay the mother. I hope you receive the guidance you need, we have some very knowledgeable folks here. I'll be praying for you.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Hi Nolefan - thank you for your thoughtful response. Yes, I too agree that spaying Tibbie is wise at this time, but of course it is a heartbreak to us. We looked toward her - and her fabulous pedigree and sweet disposition - to be the foundation of a long and happy breeding program. I realize in reading it that I left out the support I have had - my breeder (of 17 years), her friend and helper (with 11 years experience), my dog handler - who has known and shown both of our dogs for 3 years and bred Irish Setters from the age of 8 to 28, and has been a handler for 40 years, the breeder (for 20+ years) of my Havanese (she began with Keeshounds), my reproductive vet specialist, my local vet, my kennel club, and this forum. I have owned and loved dogs for 50 of my 60 years. I have always, always, always spayed and neutered my pets. This has been a lifelong dream of mine, that has involved intense study, attendance at seminars, and questioning my mentors. They have been encouraging to me in my pursuit of becoming a reliable and responsible breeder, feeling that I was "right for the job" (lol!) following a career of 40+ year in nursing, ministry and psychotherapy. I come here to share with the community and seek it's wisdom and counsel as I take on the task that others may not feel prepared or willing to pursue - becoming a responsible, knowledgable, and successful breeder of our beloved Golden Retrievers. I continue to be appreciative to all of you for sharing your own experiences and knowledge.


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## Sally's Mom

Wow, that really stinks. But you are smart in deciding that this will be it. Every golden that I have bred refuses to leave the pups and the whelping box for the first few days..I always have to use a leash to get them outside. But you are not alone.. the person who handled my goldens never left her mamas alone with their pups (different breed). One year, the grandma of the litter crushed a pup's skull. This left the pup with many medical issues and temperament issues. Fortunately, an ear missing is purely cosmetic. Good luck with your pup. And someone on this forum with more experience breeding than me, may disagree, but I think that mothering,whelping, ease of breeding, etc carry a genetic basis. Years ago, I knew a golden breeder that had to muzzle her bitch so the pups could nurse...


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## Swampcollie

I would have a long conversation with a good Repro Vet. It sounds like chemically something is "off", Thyroid, Hormones, etc. That also plays into why it is such a small litter, not uniform in size and the unpredictable swings in behaviour. 

Spaying is probably the best course, but "when" could make a huge difference for her.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Thanks to both of your for thoughtful replies. Mike, she's been on Throid per the repro vet for about a year, and had levels checked all during the pregnancy and leading up to the whelping. The repro vet stated that she was surprised by the small litter too, because litter from this stud (it was surgical implantation, which is supposed to yield higher #s of pups than ai) has thrown litters of 6 or more constantly. He has about 250 puppies out there now. I am fine with accepting that perhaps this HAS been a genetic problem with Tibbie's line, as her mother also had some conception problems and had some fetal reabsorption. I wonder if a low estrogen or estradial level could be causing the small litters and the lack of mothering moxie. No, I'll not breed her again to prove my point. But thank you VERY MUCH for helping me to think this through.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Spaying is probably the best course, but "when" could make a huge difference for her.[/QUOTE]


Please tell me more about "when" - and I'll get into a study of that topic next!


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## golden_eclipse

Did you say you plan to keep a puppy from this litter? My biggest concern is not only are temperament issues like this somewhat genetic, but that the mother of these puppies is going to be the biggest role in their development for the first 4-6 weeks of their life. (as you slowly start influencing them more). They will not learn to be stable happy puppies from her, but some of the reactions she has, will surely be taught to them, on some level. That to me, is why temperament of the mother of any dog I am considering to keep as a breeding/show dog, is on the very top of the list. Not to discount the temperament of the stud, that is important too, but the mother raises the litter. I would be sure to discuss this perspective to the pet homes you have lined up, and I would be sure to have a serious evaluation of each puppy before they leave your home. 

Would you mind sharing her pedigree with us?


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Here is my issue with sharing her pedigree, which I am very proud of. While I acknowledge that her issues with her puppies COULD be genetic, I also was present for the whelping of her first pup - a 21 ounce male, presenting breech, which had to be pulled. It was an awful ordeal for her and that COULD be a reason why she has had an attachment issue. I would hate to see her, or her lineage receive a label from otherwise helpful folks, which she did not deserve. Would you also feel cautious if it were your dog? I know the whelping/attachment history of her mother and grandmother, who manifested no problems with their litters.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

kdowningxc said:


> I would be sure to have a serious evaluation of each puppy before they leave your home.
> 
> Would you mind sharing her pedigree with us?


I am already in contact with three breeder contacts who have graciously agreed to come for evals. Thanks for that tip. I have also updated the buyer of the large male regarding Tibbie's problems. None of my pups are going to homes with full registrations, and our contract includes spay/neuter agreements.


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## SheetsSM

You can search on K9data by call name--you shouldn't be ashamed of her pedigree, breeding isn't perfect, the best you can do is stand by your pup and her offspring.


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## golden_eclipse

My bitch just delivered a 3lb walrus puppy (a puppy completely filled with water) naturally, and she is not anything but loving and attentive to her puppies. (the walrus puppy did not make it as they often don't). To be honest 21oz is big, but not out of the ordinary. The reason I ask for her pedigree, is not to make broad brush statements about anything regarding her pedigree, but to have more information out for everyone concerned with the breed. If I had a dog I thought had questionable temperament and spayed/neutered them because of that, I would note that on k9data just like I would note a failed clearance, or anything else. The culture of hush hush in this breed is on the out, and having an open discourse for everyone about all problems is the only way we can improve the breed as a whole. Sorry for your situation, but you must know, that you can not be afraid to share about problems, we all have them, the more we share the better it is for the breed as a whole. Thus when our breeding dogs pass, we all must have the courage to share what took them and at what age, even if that means some might look down on us, it is out of our control, but what we can help is future breeders having all of the information at their finger tips for breeding decisions.


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## Sally's Mom

Technically, breech births are born with the paws forward towards Mom's head and the tail end backwards. 40% of pups are born rear end first with the pups heading out of the mom with the rump.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

I thank you so much for your response, which you stated quite well and which I wholeheartedly agree. I would like you to consider, however, that our puppies are 8 days old as of this writing, that we have not yet spayed our bitch, that we are still in the process of observing our litter, gathering information, and educating ourselves. 
We are not "afraid to share about our problems," it was my post which began this thread, after all. I believe that you can understand why I am limiting my response to your questions at this time, until, I, as the owner and responsible breeder, have come to some conclusions as to what, if any, concerns need to be shared with the breeding community. It is not too much to ask for some time to think things through, is it???


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## Sally's Mom

I have helped all of my girls whelp.. And whether or not I helped "pull" a puppy has had no bearing on dam attachment.


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## Sally's Mom

Actually, conception problems in bitches can sometimes be due to endometrial hyperplasia and endometrial cysts. Did you go to surgical implanation right off the bat?


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Sally's Mom said:


> I have helped all of my girls whelp.. And whether or not I helped "pull" a puppy has had no bearing on dam attachment.[/QUOTE
> 
> Thank you for that input, that's helpful. I am sorry if "pull" is not a term that you use. I lived on a cattle ranch for many years and when the birth needed to be assisted, it was termed "pulled." I am glad that assisting the birth never had any bearing on attachment for you. Thanks for your help.
> 
> I am not sure what you all are seeking - from me - at this time. I came here seeking help for this difficulty, and you have been most gracious in your responses. As an experienced medical professional I don't choose to jump to a diagnosis, especially when time here is not an issue. I will continue to gather info and think through this event.


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## Megora

Because down the road people will be googling kennel names and names of dogs in pedigrees or your name... I think it's a good idea to keep the pedigree out of this, even though as has been said already - K9data does allow people to search by name and your girl has a unique name. 

I did want to say I'm sorry about my short comment. I read your first 2 comments (big blocks of text) the wrong way and was somewhat under the wrong impression of how much work and prep you did prior to this breeding. There have been other people who have posted threads on GRF and other places who have been pretty impulsive and daydreamy about breeding. I would imagine that those people should hopefully read this thread and keep in mind it's not always a walk in the park.

Re/mom's rejecting puppies... is there something like surrogate moms that breeders use in that case? 

I have a friend who breeds mastiffs... her girl had mastitis and had be rushed to the vet. Her puppies went to another breeder during that time. I believe they remained with the other breeder because even after her girl came back from the vet, she had no interest in the puppies.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Sally's Mom said:


> Actually, conception problems in bitches can sometimes be due to endometrial hyperplasia and endometrial cysts. Did you go to surgical implanation right off the bat?


Yes. My reproductive vet suggested surgical implantation as the stud is overseas and she had the frozen specimen. As so many of the dogs in my area are related, I wanted to get outside of the line - for a change - and use new stock.


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## Sally's Mom

Any way sounds like a lot of effort and wish you all the best with the pups.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Sally's Mom said:


> Any way sounds like a lot of effort and wish you all the best with the pups.


thanks so much!


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams

One of our clients just had a great Dane that had a litter (I think 9?). She was around 3 or so..first litter I think, and this wasn't all that planned of a litter. Supposedly sat on one of them and did seem upset But turns out the mom was not a good mother to the pups. They said she would maybe feed them once a day and they did supplemental feedings for the rest of the time. They are getting her spayed soon as the pups are weaned. IMO just like in people..some dogs arent good mothers, for whatever reason, and just in that sense should not be bred again. I have heard of other dogs killing their own pups...maybe something was wrong with that pup. They can sense those things..but still a scary thing. I commend you for already saying you are going to spay her and I would try to find a replacement momma if you can especially if momma continues to not want to do much for the pups. Socialization from their mothers is so important. I would be heartbroken too if my Lilly ended up being like that..I've learned that the things we want in life are never easy and having this kink in your dreams will only make you appreciate it more when you do get it right next time.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Megora said:


> Because down the road people will be googling kennel names and names of dogs in pedigrees or your name... I think it's a good idea to keep the pedigree out of this, even though as has been said already - K9data does allow people to search by name and your girl has a unique name.
> 
> Thank you for sharing this wisdom!
> 
> I did want to say I'm sorry about my short comment. I read your first 2 comments (big blocks of text) the wrong way and was somewhat under the wrong impression of how much work and prep you did prior to this breeding.
> 
> thank you. We started working and researching a year prior to getting our girl, we've attended breeding seminars and talked to a lot of people, a great deal of study. Sometimes . . . life happens.
> 
> Re/mom's rejecting puppies... is there something like surrogate moms that breeders use in that case?
> 
> She does nurse them, and we have muzzled her for now. We are waiting to see what happens next.
> 
> Again, thanks for your considerate remarks.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams

I have seen people use them..I would see if any of your breeder/mentor friends have any actively nursing or just getting done nursing dogs. I would try that route for sure and if that turns up empty just make sure pups are being fed properly and as they get older make sure they have older friendly dogs to play and learn from, they have to learn how to play and behave and really get that from their momma.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

OnMyWay2MyDreams said:


> I have seen people use them..I would see if any of your breeder/mentor friends have any actively nursing or just getting done nursing dogs. I would try that route for sure and if that turns up empty just make sure pups are being fed properly and as they get older make sure they have older friendly dogs to play and learn from, they have to learn how to play and behave and really get that from their momma.


Thanks so much for that great advice! So far the two larger pups have been gaining three and a half ounces a day for the last four days, and the runt 2 ounces per for the last two days. I do have some kennel friends who have friendly pups to bring for visits when they are older.

Again, great advice - thanks!


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## rob1

I'm so sorry you're having this trouble. I don't know anything about whelping, but my last dog was from a litter rejected by the momma. He was an English Setter, and truly the best dog ever. Loved people and always slept right beside me in bed- his head on the pillow. I wouldn't have any qualms about getting a pup from a litter that was rejected. (And note- this was an experienced breeder and a nice pairing. Sometimes it just happens.)

Jack was never very food driven- I always wondered if that was because he didn't have to do the usual competition in the chow line. And he was fine with other dogs- I'd actually worry a bit more about a pup from a litter of one than a pup from a rejected litter- at least he got lots of time with his siblings and extra human contact.

Anyway, sounds like you're doing everything you can. I'm just sorry you had this experience, especially after all of your preparation.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

SheetsSM said:


> You can search on K9data by call name--you shouldn't be ashamed of her pedigree, breeding isn't perfect, the best you can do is stand by your pup and her offspring.


 
Hmm. I don't remember saying anything about shame. I am not sure you understood my post.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Thanks so much for your kind response, which was very encouraging.


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## Ljilly28

I could only read the first five posts, and I was just too sad to continue on. This is pne of my worst fears about breeding, and I know of three other wonderful golden girls who had this reaction for various reasons, and the attendant heartache and worry for the humans. I am so sorry- just very traumatic for all involved.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

*It is going well today!*

Thanks for your support. We are doing fine at present. Our girl is giving hourly tongue baths and they are gaining almost four ounces a day, so the milk is flowing! We continue to observe and supervise, and have seen no other indications of abandonment. All is not lost!:crossfing


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## Ljilly28

Okay, if it is a happier ending, I will get my courage up and read the whole thread!


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## Ljilly28

I am glad you plan to spay Tibbie at this point, It is the right thing to do.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Ljilly28 said:


> I am glad you plan to spay Tibbie at this point, It is the right thing to do.


 
Well, no, I can't really say that I'm glad, but I know what you mean.


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## Pointgold

CinnamonGoldenGirl said:


> Hmm. I don't remember saying anything about shame. I am not sure you understood my post.


While you may not have said "shame", as a breeder I don't know why you wouldn't post a pedigree. May I ask if all clearances were done on both sire and dam?


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Yes, thank you for your very illuminating question. I don't need to offer you an explanation of why I'm not posting her pedigree. But I'll give it to you. Because I have found that a lot of you on this site pass judgment before you even ask pertinent questions, because you want to "inform the breed community" prior to me having time to come to gather information and come to a decision on this myself. I have had goldens for 22 years, and shelties before that. I have ALWAYS spay and neutered my animals. This time I found an exceptional bitch puppy and my husband and I were open to - and encouraged to continue her magnificent line. We found a magnificent healthy stud, we have done our OFAs (good hips, elbows, cardiac, thyroid) and our CERF. Same for the stud - who has about 250 puppies on the ground right now. But - if I choose not to post her pedigree because I'm afraid that power seeking posters who indicate an agenda would like to circulate erroneous and unproven information about her, it is instantly insinuated that I AM ASHAMED OF HER PEDIGREE. So folks, thanks for your advice, where it was good, sincere, wise and compassionately offered. To those of you who had an agenda of indicated almost a glee in "have her spayyyyyyed!", I offer, "good day."


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## Pointgold

CinnamonGoldenGirl said:


> Yes, thank you for your very illuminating question. I don't need to offer you an explanation of why I'm not posting her pedigree. But I'll give it to you. Because I have found that a lot of you on this site pass judgment before you even ask pertinent questions, because you want to "inform the breed community" prior to me having time to come to gather information and come to a decision on this myself. I have had goldens for 22 years, and shelties before that. I have ALWAYS spay and neutered my animals. This time I found an exceptional bitch puppy and my husband and I were open to - and encouraged to continue her magnificent line. We found a magnificent healthy stud, we have done our OFAs (good hips, elbows, cardiac, thyroid) and our CERF. Same for the stud - who has about 250 puppies on the ground right now. But - if I choose not to post her pedigree because I'm afraid that power seeking posters who indicate an agenda would like to circulate erroneous and unproven information about her, it is instantly insinuated that I AM ASHAMED OF HER PEDIGREE. So folks, thanks for your advice, where it was good, sincere, wise and compassionately offered. To those of you who had an agenda of indicated almost a glee in "have her spayyyyyyed!", I offer, "good day."


Whew... I think you are (dramatically) reading _far _more into the posts in this thread than is necessary. As a breeder, of course I'd ask. When someone posts here about a litter/breeding/etc, it's a valid and common question. 
But, I found your website and my question is answered. Thanks, anyway.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

I'm glad you found my website! Hope you enjoyed it!
Thanks for your input.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Yes, I found your website as well. All of my questions are also answered.
Be well.


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## HiTideGoldens

CinnamonGoldenGirl said:


> Yes, I found your website as well. All of my questions are also answered.
> Be well.


If I recall correctly there is a Pointgold kennel somewhere but that is not PGs kennel name. FYI


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## Pointgold

CinnamonGoldenGirl said:


> Yes, I found your website as well. All of my questions are also answered.
> Be well.


 
If you are referring to me, I don't have one.


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## HiTideGoldens

CinnamonGoldenGirl said:


> Yes, thank you for your very illuminating question. I don't need to offer you an explanation of why I'm not posting her pedigree. But I'll give it to you. Because I have found that a lot of you on this site pass judgment before you even ask pertinent questions, because you want to "inform the breed community" prior to me having time to come to gather information and come to a decision on this myself. I have had goldens for 22 years, and shelties before that. I have ALWAYS spay and neutered my animals. This time I found an exceptional bitch puppy and my husband and I were open to - and encouraged to continue her magnificent line. We found a magnificent healthy stud, we have done our OFAs (good hips, elbows, cardiac, thyroid) and our CERF. Same for the stud - who has about 250 puppies on the ground right now. But - if I choose not to post her pedigree because I'm afraid that power seeking posters who indicate an agenda would like to circulate erroneous and unproven information about her, it is instantly insinuated that I AM ASHAMED OF HER PEDIGREE. So folks, thanks for your advice, where it was good, sincere, wise and compassionately offered. To those of you who had an agenda of indicated almost a glee in "have her spayyyyyyed!", I offer, "good day."


I think you are going through a rough time and are taking people's agreement with the decision to spay her as a personal attack.... it is difficult to tell tone on the internet, it sounded to me like they are simply agreeing with and supporting your decision.


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## MikaTallulah

Pointgold said:


> If you are referring to me, I don't have one.


You did at one point though


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## DNL2448

I've read this entire thread, and I'm glad your puppies are doing well. I also think you are getting very defensive over questions that are asked of all people with new litters, mostly out of curiosity, some for information, but it seems you are either very suspicious of people or you are being coached what to say. Please, relax and share with us your experiences with your Goldens. Don't be offended at sincere questions if you answer honestly, you will be treated fairly. If it is found you are lying, you will not stay long. I hope you are treated fairly and stay with us for a long time. FYI, if you want to check out my website, feel free to...It's my kennel name .com


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## Pointgold

MikaTallulah said:


> You did at one point though


 
Many years ago... 
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...-puppy/32279-word-about-breeder-websites.html


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I think you are going through a rough time and are taking people's agreement with the decision to spay her as a personal attack.... it is difficult to tell tone on the internet, it sounded to me like they are simply agreeing with and supporting your decision.


Thanks, Michelle. that was a helpful comment. I am tired - of course neither my husband nor I have slept much this week. I apologize if I got defensive, I've received a couple of messages that were very negative and almost threatening. Do PETA people hang out here? LOL


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## Suni52

I don't want to get involved in any arguments, but I am curious if things between mom and pups is it improving? Do you still need to keep the muzzle on her?


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## HiTideGoldens

CinnamonGoldenGirl said:


> Thanks, Michelle. that was a helpful comment. I am tired - of course neither my husband nor I have slept much this week. I apologize if I got defensive, I've received a couple of messages that were very negative and almost threatening. Do PETA people hang out here? LOL


They might....lol. But speaking from experience with PG giving me advice on a scary issue with a friend's puppy, I know she is very helpful and knowledgeable.


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## MikaTallulah

Pointgold said:


> Many years ago...
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...-puppy/32279-word-about-breeder-websites.html


I know it wasn't recent. Your embelm only comes up now. I looked at long ago. 


Oops! I get easy distracted :doh:


OP I wish only the best for your mama and pups .


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

I also think you are getting very defensive over questions that are asked of all people with new litters, mostly out of curiosity, some for information, 

Perhaps. Sorry. I'm very tired. 

but it seems you are either very suspicious of people

you haven't read my messages!

or you are being coached what to say. 

Okay, I don't understand that one. No one is here to coach me - unless it's the girl herself! LOL 

Please, relax and share with us your experiences with your Goldens. Don't be offended at sincere questions if you answer honestly, you will be treated fairly. If it is found you are lying, 

OMG! What would I be lying about????

you will not stay long. I hope you are treated fairly and stay with us for a long time. FYI, if you want to check out my website, feel free to...It's my kennel name .com[/QUOTE]


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## HiTideGoldens

CinnamonGoldenGirl said:


> OMG! What would I be lying about????


Fair question, but unfortunately people do come on here lying and seeking advice from people (not just about dog issues), draw people in and then it is discovered it's all a big fake. Sad but true.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Point taken. PLEASE! (clearing throat, wiping eyes, starting over) . . . I'D LIKE TO INVITE YOU ALL TO MY WEBSITE! We have a great love for our animals, try to do the best thing by them, and remain open to good advice from knowledgeable people! You can find us here: www.spiceridgekennels.com or you can like us on fb to see the latest videos, etc. Or, you can look up Tibbie on k9data.com "Misty Ridge Sweet Tibbie Dunbar." We are VERY proud of our good dogs and are happy to share that news with everyone. To answer an earlier post, yes, I plan on getting Tibbie more into Field work after this litter is gone. She has done very well at obedience and beginning agility classes. I am a little afraid of field work because there are alligators in the Florida lakes! But the regional breed club uses private land up north of us and we are looking forward to getting into that.


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## Alaska7133

I've always considered breeding and would go about it the same way you have. I am horrified at your experience and would hope to not have the same thing happen again to anyone. It must be a very difficult decision to not breed this bitch again and give up on her. Finding another great female to breed would be a hard process. You obviously have spent a great deal of money and time on breeding your bitch. I hope the best for you and the dogs. Oh, and you have a nice website by the way.


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## Tahnee GR

I have to say that I had a girl who was beautiful and sweet and very good-natured. She was sent to Texas by her breeder to be shown and was bred while down there. Neither my friend or I were aware of the personal problems the person who had her was going through, which was causing her great mental distress-until puppies began mysteriously dying. Finally the stud dog owner saw my girl-at a dog show along with her not 4-week old babies  All were in very sad shape and so the stud dog owner took them home with her and raised the puppies for the remaining time. Mom came home to me. We found out that of the 15 puppies, Mom had killed at least 3 of them and we weren't sure of the cause of death of the other three. The puppies were in pretty rough shape and the stud dog owner spent a lot of time getting them better.

I decided to breed Mom again, reasoning that the number of puppies she had, the c-section, and the rotating strange homes she was put into had affected her, because she was such a good girl otherwise. I also determined to check her calcium levels regularly, in case of hypercalcimia.

It was a disaster-about 12 hours after they were born, she attacked 2 puppies. Luckily, Yvette heard the first scream from where she sleeping nearby and got there in time. We immediately removed them from the Mom, and they were tubed and bottle-raised for a week until one of the Corgi's, with slightly older puppies, insisted on raising them.  Al of her bloodwork was perfectly normal.

I did what I should have done with the first litter-spayed her and placed her in a wonderful home. She has been a wonderful pet ever since. She was just not meant to be a mother.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

How kind of you - its all been a work of love. I love the breed, I love Tibbie, and i love puppies.


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## DNL2448

CinnamonGoldenGirl said:


> Point taken. PLEASE! (clearing throat, wiping eyes, starting over) . . . I'D LIKE TO INVITE YOU ALL TO MY WEBSITE! We have a great love for our animals, try to do the best thing by them, and remain open to good advice from knowledgeable people! You can find us here: www.spiceridgekennels.com or you can like us on fb to see the latest videos, etc. Or, you can look up Tibbie on k9data.com "Misty Ridge Sweet Tibbie Dunbar." We are VERY proud of our good dogs and are happy to share that news with everyone. To answer an earlier post, yes, I plan on getting Tibbie more into Field work after this litter is gone. She has done very well at obedience and beginning agility classes. I am a little afraid of field work because there are alligators in the Florida lakes! But the regional breed club uses private land up north of us and we are looking forward to getting into that.


Thank You! Tibbie is beautiful with a very nice pedigree and I think you will find the GRF a great place and there are so many helpful and informative people on here (Pointgold, being one of them). I'm sorry if we got off on the wrong foot. I know how trying having a litter can be, especially one that has some complications, so please forgive my initial suspicions.


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## kwhit

CinnamonGoldenGirl said:


> (clearing throat, wiping eyes, *starting over*) . . .


Starting over...Welcome to the forum! :wave:


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Thank you for sharing this terrible part of your journey with me. It has actually helped me to say, "It could be worse!" At this time, the puppies are thriving, mom is being very protective of them and nurturing to them. I continue to observe carefully and supervise at all times. I have kept a muzzle on her when she is in the box, but not because she has indicated any further aggression. One of my very local breeder friends - who has bred champion Shelties for over 30 years suggested that the big boy may have pierced Tibbie with a nail. (I had not yet trimmed them when this happened.) I continue to gather information - and your post was really helpful!


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

kwhit said:


> Starting over...Welcome to the forum! :wave:


 
Okay, that was just CUTE! :smooch:


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## BayBeams

I am so sorry that your first attempt to have a lovingly nurtured litter of puppies has not gone well. You are doing your best to fill in the gaps that Tibbie, for whatever reason, is unable to fulfill.
I hope you are able to find ways to provide the puppies with the education that a Mama dog typically provides.
Wishing you the best....


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## BayBeams

CinnamonGoldenGirl said:


> Thank you for sharing this terrible part of your journey with me. It has actually helped me to say, "It could be worse!" At this time, the puppies are thriving, mom is being very protective of them and nurturing to them. I continue to observe carefully and supervise at all times. I have kept a muzzle on her when she is in the box, but not because she has indicated any further aggression. One of my very local breeder friends - who has bred champion Shelties for over 30 years suggested that the big boy may have pierced Tibbie with a nail. (I had not yet trimmed them when this happened.) I continue to gather information - and your post was really helpful!


OOps, I missed reading this post while I was posting. It sounds like mama may be coming around. Fingers crossed for you that things go well for you and the puppies.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Thank You! Tibbie is beautiful with a very nice pedigree and I think you will find the GRF a great place and there are so many helpful and informative people on here (Pointgold, being one of them). I'm sorry if we got off on the wrong foot. I know how trying having a litter can be, especially one that has some complications, so please forgive my initial suspicions.

Not a problem. I'm sorry for the bad behavior. I'm glad we're past it.


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## Tahnee GR

CinnamonGoldenGirl said:


> Thank you for sharing this terrible part of your journey with me. It has actually helped me to say, "It could be worse!" At this time, the puppies are thriving, mom is being very protective of them and nurturing to them. I continue to observe carefully and supervise at all times. I have kept a muzzle on her when she is in the box, but not because she has indicated any further aggression. One of my very local breeder friends - who has bred champion Shelties for over 30 years suggested that the big boy may have pierced Tibbie with a nail. (I had not yet trimmed them when this happened.) I continue to gather information - and your post was really helpful!


It was a terrible experience, and I still cannot believe it happened at all.

I guess for me, there is no excuse for a mother, even a new and inexperienced one, to attack one of her own babies. At least not a Golden mom, as they are generally not very reactive. But it sounds like she has turned a corner into mommyhood!

I wish you the very best of luck, with Tibbie and with the babies.


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## Suni52

So happy to hear that things are going better for Tibbie and the pups.


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## Conquerergold

First off I am sorry you are going through this. I do have to say, this is not as uncommon as one would think. Yes, they are Goldens and should be lovey dovey all the time, but first and foremost they are dogs. After giving birth those hormones are a wreck, some bitches are able to make sense of it all from the get go, others may take a day or two, some need to be supplemented with calcium to help them relax, and others just don't understand it at all and never will.

I have had a few girls who what nothing to do with their puppies for the first few hours (one took 36 hours). I have had to hold a bitch down so she would not be aggressive towards puppies while they nursed, then all of a sudden, 6 hours after birth, the hormones kick in and she knows exactly what to do.

I can not stress enough, in most of these cases, the use of a calcium supplement can work wonders (Tums). Since learning about this several years ago I now supplement all mothers with Tums for the first several days/weeks (just as a preventive/precaution). I had one bitch who would shake all over when her puppies nursed, it was amazing after crushing up some Tums and making her swallow them within 20 minutes one could see the calm come over her.

Just another thing for you to possibly look into, the Myra Savant-Harris books go into the use of Tums/calcium after birth (as well as during birth) so may be worth picking up.

I have a litter here right now out of the same stud dog you used ;-)

Best of luck!!
Rob


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Hi Rob! Thanks so much for the timely info which I will act upon today! And I will also look for the book on amazon. :crossfing We were a little disappointed to only get the 3 pups. He is an amazing boy and we are happy to have the 3, however.


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## Sally's Mom

Interesting combo, Havanese and Goldens. The OTCH trainer I train with brings her client's Havenese to my lessons. He is really cute and so good at heeling. Good luck with the pups.


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## Sally's Mom

Years ago, I was told to give milk thru the birth of the pups. Whether it truly works or not, I have always given milk during whelping.....


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Interesting combo, Havanese and Goldens. 

They are similar in that they are people-dogs, eager to please and pretty smart! The Havies were circus performers you know, and excel at cute tricks. They lack the Golden's self-sacrificing nature we've found, however.


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## sterregold

Conquerergold said:


> First off I am sorry you are going through this. I do have to say, this is not as uncommon as one would think. Yes, they are Goldens and should be lovey dovey all the time, but first and foremost they are dogs. After giving birth those hormones are a wreck, some bitches are able to make sense of it all from the get go, others may take a day or two, some need to be supplemented with calcium to help them relax, and others just don't understand it at all and never will.
> 
> I have had a few girls who what nothing to do with their puppies for the first few hours (one took 36 hours). I have had to hold a bitch down so she would not be aggressive towards puppies while they nursed, then all of a sudden, 6 hours after birth, the hormones kick in and she knows exactly what to do.
> 
> I can not stress enough, in most of these cases, the use of a calcium supplement can work wonders (Tums). Since learning about this several years ago I now supplement all mothers with Tums for the first several days/weeks (just as a preventive/precaution). I had one bitch who would shake all over when her puppies nursed, it was amazing after crushing up some Tums and making her swallow them within 20 minutes one could see the calm come over her.
> 
> Just another thing for you to possibly look into, the Myra Savant-Harris books go into the use of Tums/calcium after birth (as well as during birth) so may be worth picking up.
> 
> I have a litter here right now out of the same stud dog you used ;-)
> 
> Best of luck!!
> Rob


I was just going to post the same advice about calcium, Rob! Nursing can really deplete the bitch's calcium in her bloodstream and that can have dramatic effects including aggressive behaviour. Even with their lovely temperaments, I always supplement my girls with calcium post-whelp just to be safe.


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## CinnamonGoldenGirl

Wow, and I thank you BOTH so much for this helpful advice. When I spoke with my vet this morning (she calls in every day, bless her, to check on these pups and their mom, I told her that I have given my girl two crushed tums last night (in Yogurt.) She agreed, "Great! Have at it, it can't hurt!" but then also added her thoughts that the hypocalcemia usually occurs either with a small bitch with many pups, (like my Havanese in the future), or if a Golden, a larger litter of 10+ pups. She thought that with just the three pups, calcium would probably not come into play, although, like I said, she didn't "poopoo" the idea, tho she suggested decreasing the dosage to one TUMS twice a day. She had already called the UofFL Vet School (her almamater) to speak with the Repro Vet Prof there about "Tibbie's case," and was awaiting a call back. If things had continue to spiral, she said she would have suggested a collar called DAT - that slow releases phermones which encourages maternal attachment. Have you guys heard of that, and if so, what have you heard? The wonderful thing I was able to relate is that Tibbie has done a 180 from her first days as a mom, and the dreadful "incident." She's been coasting into motherhood since that afternoon, and at this writing she is as attentive and tender a mom as I've seen. I continue to keep the muzzle on her for now, esp if I step out of the room. But other than that, "she's golden!" I thank you all for your great help!


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## Tahnee GR

My repro vet strongly recommends the DAP collar. I have not used it but have some friends who swear by it.


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## nolefan

CinnamonGoldenGirl said:


> The wonderful thing I was able to relate is that Tibbie has done a 180 from her first days as a mom, and the dreadful "incident." She's been coasting into motherhood since that afternoon, and at this writing she is as attentive and tender a mom as I've seen. I continue to keep the muzzle on her for now, esp if I step out of the room.


Now that is terrific news! So glad to check in and see that you feel she's really improving. I am fascinated with the info that has been shared here, very interesting. I hope things continue to be headed up, maybe before too long you will be able to share some puppy photos... that would be something to look forward to . Sending you positive thoughts....:crossfing


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## GoldenMum

Wow! Just read this thread, I am so sorry with what you've gone through with your girl. I don't no nuttin bout birthin no puppies, but this should seriously send some BYBs running. I am glad to see everything is going better, and I hope you'll stick around and share your knowledge. Wishing you and your Golden family the best, and hoping for some pics of your fur babies!


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams

So glad things are improving. The dap collar has pheromes on it, much like what a mother gives off when she has pups, suppose to have a calming effect. We use in it anxious dogs so it may not hurt to try. Can't wait to see some puppy pics!


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## MillysMom

Pointgold said:


> If you are referring to me, I don't have one.


I know you've told me various reasons behind not having one, but I really hope that changes in the future! Too many amazing things are happening over at Nitelite right now... you NEED a website!


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## pandamonium

I would just like to say that your vet sounds wonderful!...to hear that she calls you to see how Tibbie and the pups are doing most mornings is amazing. I have an amazing vet also. If he would move out of state...we joke that we would vacation to him for an office call! I think I read that she met you ten minutes after there was an emergency with one of the pups...some would say..."It's their job!"... But I know that you appreciate her.
I have read with interest this morning your "journey" with your girl and her puppies...I appreciated your honesty and willingness to share with us. There was one post that your voice (tone) changed a bit....and giggle...honestly I thought...that poor owner is a bit sleep deprived and stressed!... So glad to see that all has turned out well!


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## Sally's Mom

Since this has been resurrected... 40 % of pups are born with hind legs first, it is posterior presentation, not breech. My litter born shortly after Tibbie's litter started with a ginormous male posterior presentation...fortunately, my calm husband was able to manipulate him out... Then came the rest of the eight......

Tibbie's is very pretty and the pups look adorable.


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## SheetsSM

And with more pups planned for the Easter time frame, hopefully Tibbie won't need the muzzle again with the next litter. Little Bear is adorable even with the missing ear.


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## nolefan

SheetsSM said:


> And with more pups planned for the Easter time frame, hopefully Tibbie won't need the muzzle again with the next litter. Little Bear is adorable even with the missing ear.


Are you kidding???:uhoh: I couldn't imagine risking this scenario again.....


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## Sally's Mom

I believe that the dam contributes a lot to puppy temperament. My momma dogs all descend from my Cookie, who LOVED her pups. She also loved her grand kids and would jump in the whelping box to clean and love them. Her daughters were also great moms..and now her granddaughter Basil was a terrific mom to her pups. Cookie's granddaughter, Emmie is the only one who gave me a scare. After she had her first pup on the couch, I showed it to her. She put the head in her mouth and I freaked. Turned out it was just an Emmie thing. Of all my dogs, she is the only one who picked up her pups oand sometimes she grabbed them around the abdomen with them kicking and screaming. All of my girls,have been easy to breed and only one has had a c section in nine litters. I truly believe that nothing you feed the bitch makes them a good mother. Mi have seen it in y own girls where the instinct is just so strong. Interestingly, when my Basil had mastitis,the repro vet told me to wean the pups at 14 days. She has a different breed of dog.... I wondered if the mothersmare not so great?


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## boydan1990

*help*

anyone know where I can get a 9 French Whelping Tube


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## boydan1990

*help*

anyone know where we can get a 9 French Whelping tube?


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## CAROLINA MOM

boydan1990 said:


> anyone know where we can get a 9 French Whelping tube?


I did a Google Search, found this-

Amazon-

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&k...vptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_1thbdwhlyu_b


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