# Looking for opinions- my dog needs a second surgery



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Welcome to the forum. Unfortunately, I don't have any knowledge to impart. I will keep Midas in my prayers. 

My Sunny had fibrosarcoma on his back leg. They took the correct margins and at his check up a year later his doctor said cancer free. Two weeks later he died of hemangiosarcoma of the spleen. 

I believe our dogs know we will make the best decisions for them no matter what it is.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

First off I am so sorry all of you are having to go through this. You had a couple of questions and want to be sure I understand what you are really asking.

You asked if you want to put him through more surgeries ... if the surgery was free would you choose to do it?

I guess what I'm asking is this really about the money or putting your dog through more pain & healing?

The whole things sucks... if they have a practice and didn't follow their own guidelines then I agree that the surgeon that made that mistake should be responsible for the redo cost.

But the bigger question is do you want to put him through this again? 

I had a friend years ago that avoided the diagnosis but finally went to the Dr and had it confirmed she had lung cancer and it had spread to her lymph nodes. She was given a rather small time frame to live. SHE wanted to take a cruise and live out the remainder of her life enjoying the time she had left. Her husband & family wanted her to have the chemo. She was so sick, lost her hair and the remainder of her short life (just a few months) was spent in agony. 
I guess my point is quality vs. quantity. Only you can make this decision.

My heart goes out to you.


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## kingmidas (Aug 2, 2017)

Thanks for your reply! Of course his wellbeing is always our number one concern. He did great with the first two surgeries and recovered quickly, so I'm confident if we do another surgery he'll do well again. Of course, we would prefer to not be in this position and feel bad that Midas will have to go through another surgery  
His quality of life is still very high, he is very lively for his age and very healthy besides the cancer and sebaceous cysts. If we do the surgery, he'll most likely have another 1-2 years as long as no other health problems come up.
To clarify, we are 99.9% sure we are doing the surgery. We just have to find a way to pay for it. Because we're confident he'll do well with another surgery, our main question is whether this is fair of the vet to ask of us, again since it was their mistake. Just curious if anything similar has happened to anyone else.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

My heart goes out to you, this is a nightmare and I can only imagine how angry and outraged you must be feeling. I agree that the surgery should be offered at no cost given that they didn't follow proper protocol. The thought of pushing for this must be overwhelming, it would be mentally draining. Perhaps a second opinion from another oncologist as to what is considered proper protocol might help budge them? 

I will say that I hope you will read over the responses you've received above and try to step back and think very hard about what's in your heart. Only you can make this decision. The ladies who posted have the advantage of life experience and some of the wisdom that comes with it. I am twice your age, I've learned the hard way that we are never promised tomorrow with the ones we love the most. Quality means EVERYTHING to me. I am a fighter but I have a reluctance to put an elderly dog through a grueling ordeal only to buy a matter of months. When a Golden Retriever makes it into his teens, he has won the race by any measurement we have. There are some who make it to 15 but big dogs just typically do not. I know so few. There are never guarantees but you might go through this with him and he would have another year or it might show up in his spleen or elsewhere and he would only have a matter of weeks. It's so hard when there's no crystal ball.

I know that no one ever wants to talk about things from a money aspect, but life is such that there is not an unlimited credit line for a dog. If you max out your future and it takes you years to recover, will you look back on this decision with regret. This is not a 4 year old dog. It is not wrong or immoral to make a decision about having limits to financial resources. You and your husband should have an emergency fund for yourselves, do you have life insurance on each other? If you have no fund for a crisis or health emergency and no life insurance, even a small policy, you are not being responsible to your marriage and the future of your family. Your love for your dog should not cloud your judgement about your risks for your future. 

I am so sorry you're having to face this, it's just so hard. Please know you will find support and understanding on this forum no matter how you choose to proceed. This group is filled with people who have walked a similar path. It helps to have conversations with people who understand. My first Golden died of cancer at age 10, I didn't have the option to pursue treatment because he was never stable enough. I allowed grief to shadow my final days with him instead of enjoying every second i had left. That's the personal shadow I bring to this conversation. I will be thinking of you.
ETA: You posted while I was typing. I see that you all have made your decision. I am not sure how many people you will find in a similar situation simply because it would be very rare to find a medical professional confess to a mistake being made like this.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I wonder if they followed proper procedures, and had the appropriate margin and when they looked at the tumor under the microscope, they realized the cells had spread out farther than then the mass had appeared to be, so the margin was smaller than they consider ideal. 

Cause the margin is determined AFTER the tumor is removed. During surgery, the surgeon is eyeballing the best they can to ensure they get it all and still leave as much healthy tissue as possible. 

If it were me, I'd do the surgery as long as my dog would make it through. I'd push for a larger break on the price but if they can only go as low as 50% off, ok. 

I'd also push to see if chemo is recommended even with clean margins.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

kingmidas said:


> To clarify, we are 99.9% sure we are doing the surgery. We just have to find a way to pay for it. Because we're confident he'll do well with another surgery, our main question is whether this is fair of the vet to ask of us, again since it was their mistake. Just curious if anything similar has happened to anyone else.


Have you heard of CareCredit? It's a deferred interest credit card specifically for medical/dental/vet bills. 

My vet clinic offers a promo plan where anything over $200 you get 12 months deferred interest. If you pay the balance off in 12 months (before the promo expires), you pay 0 interest. This is how we've been paying for Bear's bills while we wait for pet insurance to reimburse us.


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## kingmidas (Aug 2, 2017)

nolefan said:


> My heart goes out to you, this is a nightmare and I can only imagine how angry and outraged you must be feeling. I agree that the surgery should be offered at no cost given that they didn't follow proper protocol. The thought of pushing for this must be overwhelming, it would be mentally draining. Perhaps a second opinion from another oncologist as to what is considered proper protocol might help budge them?
> 
> I will say that I hope you will read over the responses you've received above and try to step back and think very hard about what's in your heart. Only you can make this decision. The ladies who posted have the advantage of life experience and some of the wisdom that comes with it. I am twice your age, I've learned the hard way that we are never promised tomorrow with the ones we love the most. Quality means EVERYTHING to me. I am a fighter but I have a reluctance to put an elderly dog through a grueling ordeal only to buy a matter of months. When a Golden Retriever makes it into his teens, he has won the race by any measurement we have. There are some who make it to 15 but big dogs just typically do not. I know so few. There are never guarantees but you might go through this with him and he would have another year or it might show up in his spleen or elsewhere and he would only have a matter of weeks. It's so hard when there's no crystal ball.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for your input and support! I definitely understand where you're coming from. I know I'm optimistic in hoping he has years or even a year left because of his age, and that putting him through another surgery might not seem fair. However, because of his happy attitude (he really still acts like a 4 year old, is always happy and still runs and plays with the younger dogs at the park) and lack of other health problems we are pretty confident it would be worth it for him to go through the surgery and spend as much time with us as possible. (as long as he's comfortable, of course!)

After thinking about it more, I would HATE for him to have gone through the previous surgery for nothing. At this point, if we don't do the second surgery the first one was unnecessary. 

Although saving for an emergency fund and saving up for a house would be great, we're willing to put that on hold for now!


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## kingmidas (Aug 2, 2017)

Brave said:


> I wonder if they followed proper procedures, and had the appropriate margin and when they looked at the tumor under the microscope, they realized the cells had spread out farther than then the mass had appeared to be, so the margin was smaller than they consider ideal.
> 
> Cause the margin is determined AFTER the tumor is removed. During surgery, the surgeon is eyeballing the best they can to ensure they get it all and still leave as much healthy tissue as possible.
> 
> ...


That's an interesting point. The way they explained it to me, I wasn't sure when the margins were set. It was all so confusing, and the oncologist explained that usually they won't do anything less than a .5 centimeter margin. His was only .1 centimeters. This makes no sense to me why they didn't use a bigger margin! 

What you suggested is pretty much exactly what I think we'll end up doing. Since he's done so well with his past surgeries we're confident he'll make it through this one no problem. He's a tough guy! We're talking with them today specifically about price to see if there's anything else they can do. I appreciate the comment about asking about the chemo, we will look into that.


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## kingmidas (Aug 2, 2017)

Brave said:


> Have you heard of CareCredit? It's a deferred interest credit card specifically for medical/dental/vet bills.
> 
> My vet clinic offers a promo plan where anything over $200 you get 12 months deferred interest. If you pay the balance off in 12 months (before the promo expires), you pay 0 interest. This is how we've been paying for Bear's bills while we wait for pet insurance to reimburse us.


Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately we have already maxed out a CareCredit card this year, and are starting to pay it off now. We're on track to hopefully pay it off before accruing interest. Fingers crossed! 

Also, I REALLY wish I would have signed him up for pet insurance before this all started happening!


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Hi there - I am really sorry you and Midas are going through this. 

It sounds to me like a similar situation to what happened with my last dog. She had a large growth that had been entirely hidden under her leg - it was needle biopsied, and came back as benign. So it was removed with "not careful" margins, only to have us discover when the growth was actually cut up and biopsied that it WAS cancer. And sadly, it just spread really quickly - we didn't have the chance to do another surgery at the growth site. 

So I can see how this might have happened if they thought they were simply removing a benign cyst. It doesn't make it any easier, though. For me, I would do the second surgery. If Midas is strong and doing well, I'd do it. My dog had several surgeries after her cancer diagnosis - for various things I won't get into. But the guiding principle was always, is she strong enough to undergo another surgery, is she suffering, will this cause her pain? If it was going to improve her quality of life, I did it. We removed several more masses that popped up, and treated the metastasized spots in her lungs with chemo. For me, money was not part of the equation - I had savings, I used it. I felt very lucky, and I know that is not the case for everyone. But if you feel his quality of life is good, and you have the means, my advice, since you asked, would be to do the surgery.


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## alphadude (Jan 15, 2010)

So sorry you and Midas age dealing with this. 

This is the NYer in me talking...I would not pay them another nickel since THEY screwed up the margins. I'd be sure and let them know that I would make it my life's work to advertise their ineptitude FAR AND WIDE. That is complete BS not to mention putting a 13 year old dog with cancer through a second surgery which I don't think I would personally do.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

I'm not a medical person but it's my understanding that the surgeons will have a goal of getting a certain margin but until it's examined under a microscope they don't really know what they've got. So I'm not sure you could say the surgeon made a mistake.

As others have said, especially when a Golden gets into their teens, you can't really count on having another year or two with them. I've recently seen some videos of a couple Goldens who are 16 and enjoying life but they are the rare exceptions.

Wishing you wisdom and strength in your decision and hoping for plenty more happy days with Midas.


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

1. It is VERY difficult to get good margins in the mouth as there is very little tissue to close. This is not surgeon error, this is just the reality of surgery in that location. A chance to cut is a chance to cure, if they recommend a second surgery and believe they can get better/clean margins, do it. 
2. There are other options besides chemo. Radiation therapy has been shown to have good success with tumors in the mouth. I wouldn't be able to say if your dog is a candidate for that, but discuss it with your oncologist.


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## leighofourown (Feb 13, 2017)

Have you talked to family/friends/your trusted vet? I personally have a vet I have got to for over 15 years and his opinion in a situation like this would be everything to me. Ultimately no one but you and your family know your dog best, everyone on this forum has wonderful opinions, but none of us know your dog. Personally, I would do the surgery. If your dog is truly as happy as you say, then YES. You need to give him every oppurtunity to live life to the fullest. 

As far as the money goes, no I dont think it's fair for you to ask for the surgery to be free. As someone else said, they can't check the margins until after the surgery. Unfortunately this is a reality of the situation.


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