# Can you "improve" a conformation dog?



## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

I think you hit it right on the head with the model example. Many very gawky puppies grow up to be champions. However, they all have it at eight weeks, and then loose it for a while. Usually, a six to eight week old puppy has the same general appearance and proportions that he will have as an adult.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

vrocco1 said:


> I think you hit it right on the head with the model example. Many very gawky puppies grow up to be champions. However, they all have it at eight weeks, and then loose it for a while. Usually, a six to eight week old puppy has the same general appearance and proportions that he will have as an adult.


That's interesting, I hadn't heard that advice before, will try to remember that. I think there are many many dogs out there who don't really do anything until they are properly mature, then like a back runner, they race to the front and start winning.


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

Thanks for the interesting response.
So if you saw baby pics of one of the all-time great goldens, would it be immediately obvious that this dog had "it?"
How young would these traits become visible to a trained viewer?

allen


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

"...And how much of an improvement can a dog make simply by being handled in a way that enhances his strengths or covers his flaws?..."

Handlers can absolutely cover many flaws on a dog, and that includes flaws in their temperament as well. I believe 100% in showing as a criteria for anyone that breeds their dogs, but there are very shady people in the show world that will go to any lengths to finish their dogs. Research on the part of a puppy buyer is key.

It floors me that some people are under the illusion that because "it's" a show dog it must be sound in every aspect. There is a very well known harlequin Great Dane stud, that has since passed, that can be found in many, many harlequin pedigrees out there. He was shown extensively and his show record was amazing. He was one of the best movers, his body was very, very sound, and that's really difficult to find in a giant breed. But....he had one of the nastiest temperaments out there. His handler knew how to "control" him and never had an issue in the ring. Everyone wanted to breed to him because he ALWAYS threw typey, sound, gorgeous puppies. Did all have his temperament...no...but there were exceptions. People were willing to take the chance, though. 

A friend of my sister's went out to look at puppies sired by him, at his breeder's house, and her 6 yr. old daughter almost had her face taken off by this stud. Breeder's explanation..."Oh, he's having a bad day, doesn't like kids too much." Believe it or not, she left with a puppy and never had issues with temperament.

So yes, IMO, you can "improve" a conformation dog.


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

avincent52 said:


> Thanks for the interesting response.
> So if you saw baby pics of one of the all-time great goldens, would it be immediately obvious that this dog had "it?"
> How young would these traits become visible to a trained viewer?
> 
> allen


Click this link and then the tab that says 8 weeks old and then...
http://rushhill.com/candid_pics2.htm
I would say YES! He was super even at 8 weeks! I just love that video - could watch it over and over - what a pliable, placid and well put together puppy!
Click the agility link and see him in action 10 years later!

For full show coat many will wait until they are around 2 for serious showing, even though they may start them younger to get a feel for it.
But coat isn't everything - it's what's UNDER the coat that matters.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

*I am reposting this here:*

There are certainly a lot of "tricks of the trade" in the show ring. But, it doesn't take long for word to get around if something is being done to cover up problems, especially temperament porblems. And I personally do not think that it is quite as rampant as some would have you think. It also must be taken into consideration that when someone is doing a lot of winning, it is not unusual for those being beaten to undermine that dog with often unfounded accusations. There is certainly a "dark side" to the sport, just as in any other competitive venue.

It goes without saying that puppy buyers should do their research, no matter WHO they are buying from.

*All that said, if someone chooses, even when armed with information that may be negative, to buy a puppy simply for the winning, I have no respect for them and believe that they get whatever they deserve. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have kept puppies that I didn't show until they were mature, I had puppy that went Best of Breed from the puppy class over 11 Specials. I've have youngsters that I showed for experience as babies and put away while we suffered through the "teenaged years". It comes down to knowing your bloodlines, having a critical eye, and doing what is best for the dog.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

avincent52 said:


> Thanks for the interesting response.
> So if you saw baby pics of one of the all-time great goldens, would it be immediately obvious that this dog had "it?"
> How young would these traits become visible to a trained viewer?
> 
> allen


I really don't think you can tell much from pictures. You actually need to feel the dog, and watch it move. Think about how fuzzy their coats are at six to eight weeks. That could hide a lot of flaws. 

Seeing them move is very, very important. When the dog moves, it reveals many of the flaws in structure. A dog that is put together properly almost floats when he moves.  If there are flaws in structure, no amount of training will change the movement IMHO. I've seen people try to train dogs not to pace, and the results are usually obvious.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

A great handler can make a mediocre dog look incredible. BUT, it is the hands on that counts, and a good judge is not going to be fooled by sheer showmanship. Further, breeders who really care will not utilize the mediocre dog in their breeding programs. There ARE people who will breed to whatever dog is winning, but the mediocre dog generally produces mediocre puppies, and his stud career will be short lived once it becomes apparent that those puppies are "not all that". 

Amy Rodriguez-Booth comes to mind. She has handled some of the top Goldens in the country, yet many of them have not had stellar stud dog careers. She can turn the most average of dogs into quintessential show dogs, and it's really something to see. She earns her money, that is for sure.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

vrocco1 said:


> I think you hit it right on the head with the model example. Many very gawky puppies grow up to be champions. However, they all have it at eight weeks, and then loose it for a while. Usually, a six to eight week old puppy has the same general appearance and proportions that he will have as an adult.


Actually one of the biggest proponents of this "theory" is Pat Hastings of _The Puppy Puzzle. _If you have never seen this video I strongly recommend it to anyone who is looking for a "show" prospect. She feels the 8 week point is the key. And she feels it needs to be exactly 8 weeks for the best results. I hosted her seminar about 6 years ago and it was incredible to watch her go over a litter. She evaluated a litter of Standard Schnauzers on the day she flew in and rated them then with no one there but the breeder and myself. She then re-evaluated them two days later and actually changed her opinion on two of he pups from the initial evaluation. When I saw the breeder a couple of years later at a show I asked her how the litter turned out and she stated the second evaluation was dead on. That evaluation was done 1 day short of them being 8 weeks old.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> Actually one of the biggest proponents of this "theory" is Pat Hastings of _The Puppy Puzzle._


My Fragrance litter were all graded by a well known breeder/owner/handler according to the Puppy Puzzel. Me being a visual learner it helped a great deal to see it and see the puppy at the same time!


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Amy Rodriguez-Booth comes to mind. She has handled some of the top Goldens in the country, yet many of them have not had stellar stud dog careers. She can turn the most average of dogs into quintessential show dogs, and it's really something to see. She earns her money, that is for sure.


Reading that piece just now made me of one particular male she had that I saw and you are dead on correct


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

vrocco1 said:


> I really don't think you can tell much from pictures. You actually need to feel the dog, and watch it move. Think about how fuzzy their coats are at six to eight weeks. That could hide a lot of flaws.
> 
> Seeing them move is very, very important. When the dog moves, it reveals many of the flaws in structure. A dog that is put together properly almost floats when he moves.  If there are flaws in structure, no amount of training will change the movement IMHO. I've seen people try to train dogs not to pace, and the results are usually obvious.


I only kept my current puppy after seeing him, soaking wet, move across the yard. He has a "zipper" and I was discounting him for that because I so dislike them. But when I saw him really move, without the "fluff" covering him, my heart stopped. I sent a video of him moving to the breeder that I respect most in the world, breeder/owner of this puppy's sire, and she took the video apart frame by frame, and deemed him "perfect". I still am not crazy about the zipper, but at least I didn't throw the baby away with the bath water.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ash said:


> Reading that piece just now made me of one particular male she had that I saw and you are dead on correct


 
I can think of two right out of the gate. Hands on I was completely underwhelmed, but I sure loved to watch the one in the ring! And the second is getting there...


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

The video of Kirby won't run on a Mac. Aaargh.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

AmbikaGR said:


> Actually one of the biggest proponents of this "theory" is Pat Hastings of _The Puppy Puzzle. _If you have never seen this video I strongly recommend it to anyone who is looking for a "show" prospect. She feels the 8 week point is the key. And she feels it needs to be exactly 8 weeks for the best results. I hosted her seminar about 6 years ago and it was incredible to watch her go over a litter. She evaluated a litter of Standard Schnauzers on the day she flew in and rated them then with no one there but the breeder and myself. She then re-evaluated them two days later and actually changed her opinion on two of he pups from the initial evaluation. When I saw the breeder a couple of years later at a show I asked her how the litter turned out and she stated the second evaluation was dead on. That evaluation was done 1 day short of them being 8 weeks old.


Yeah, she started calling it the puppy puzzle after I told her about it. :doh:


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

vrocco1 said:


> Yeah, she started calling it the puppy puzzle after I told her about it. :doh:


Guess you were just meant to be the "Kennel Help"


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## 3459 (Dec 27, 2007)

avincent52 said:


> The video of Kirby won't run on a Mac. Aaargh.


I know. Can't tell you how many times I have tried to access the videos of Kirby.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> I only kept my current puppy after seeing him, soaking wet, move across the yard. He has a "zipper" and I was discounting him for that because I so dislike them. But when I saw him really move, without the "fluff" covering him, my heart stopped. I sent a video of him moving to the breeder that I respect most in the world, breeder/owner of this puppy's sire, and she took the video apart frame by frame, and deemed him "perfect". I still am not crazy about the zipper, but at least I didn't throw the baby away with the bath water.


Poor baby. My son disliked Tucker's zipper so much he cut it low and it was hard to tell he had a zipper without looking really close. After I yelled, he never went near him again.


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## Packleader (Nov 27, 2007)

I could only find the puppy puzzle in paperback on Amazon, is there a video and where might I find it?


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## Packleader (Nov 27, 2007)

Never mind, I found it in the DVD. Will get it Weds. Can't wait to see it. So glad I checked out this thread. Thank everyone!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Packleader said:


> I could only find the puppy puzzle in paperback on Amazon, is there a video and where might I find it?


 
you can get it at Dogwise.com
http://www.dogwise.com/search.cfm


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

avincent52 said:


> Are conformation shows really all about the breeding--the dog has "it" or he doesn't?
> 
> Or are there instances in which dogs failed at the beginning of their careers, and then as they aged became "great" either through training or sheer maturity.
> 
> ...


Hi Allen
Will try to get this thread back on topic as I may have steered it a little off course, sorry.
A dog will definetly "change" as time goes on. Some will be at their best when they are young while other will trully improve with age. If I had my druthers I will always take the latter.
As for improving a dog it is what it is, however with proper conditioning you can maximize what you have.
And yes a good handler/groomer can make an average dog "look" great but it will still be an average dog. Showing dogs does make a person good. As in anyhere in life there will always be those who look for the"easy" way and if that means bending the rules or cheating so be it. But I do not think there are anymore of these people involved in dogs than anywhere else.


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

Thank you. The tangent in the thread was certainly interesting, though. 
FWIW, I'm not at all suggesting that having a handler that helps a dog show well is "cheating."
As a total newbie, I'm just asking a few basic questions about how obvious is "greatness" in a dog, and what the percentage of "horse" and "rider" in a winning dog/handler combination.

best
Allen


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Cheating? At dog show? Come on, I don't believe that! If that is true, next thing you know, they'll be painting noses and using talc on their feathers. :crossfing


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

vrocco1 said:


> Cheating? At dog show? Come on, I don't believe that! If that is true, next thing you know, they'll be painting noses and using talc on their feathers. :crossfing


(Mother tone) - Vern, hold your tounge!! :curtain:


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

vrocco1 said:


> Cheating? At dog show? Come on, I don't believe that! If that is true, next thing you know, they'll be painting noses and using talc on their feathers. :crossfing


Actually Vern I bet there are many on this forum who will think you ARE saying that in jest. But folks it is not a joke unfortunately, it happens!


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

What's the matter with painting a dog's nose or manipulating its feathers?
After all, they do it to supermodels.

allen


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