# Growling around children



## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

Hi all,

I am a new member to this forum, came across it surfing the web looking for answers. I recently adopted a 7 or 8 yo rescue Golden, Charlie. He has fast become the love of my life, much to my husband's chagrin. 

He has had some dominance related aggression issues - got into fights with dogs who have tried to mount him, stared at him too long/the wrong way, or have taken his toy away from him. We are working with a behaviorist but I am mainly just keeping him from situations where he gets overwhelmed with pack superiority and is forced to assert himself. 

My bigger concern is that he is extremely anxious and defensive around children, especially running, screaming and agitated children (aren't they all?) He will growl even when he is inside but hears kids playing outside. If we are outside, he growls even more and barks. Before I recognized this behavior in him, we had two little kids over one day and he freaked out. He was growling and barking and shaking and we finallly had to put him in our bedroom and shut the door, after which he alternatively barked and growled the whole time. 

I try to take him to the park when kids are playing and make him sit at a safe distance and just watch, and he is okay, but every once in a while he will growl or bark, as if for good measure. Not sure what else to do - I don't know any kids I can actually practice training with him, nor am I sure if I really trust him. Thoughts? I am worried that he will never be able to be around kids, or worse yet, I will have to muzzle him when we go outside around kids, just in case. I keep seeing him in his dog fights and thinking, what if those were children?


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I think it is gonna be a tough cure at that age.. It may be the very reason he was a rescue dog.. did they tell you he was not good around children?.. 
Quite frankly, I wouldn't let you use my kids to practice on. 
If you have no kids of your own you can probably control the situation. He becomes a house dog. Signs posted outside. And you lock him up when kids come to visit. This is not somthing to take lightly. 
Unfortunately, there is probably somthing in his history that caused this. And it probably centers around abuse. I would never fully trust him around kids regardless of the behavoirist.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Welcome to the forum.....I'm sure you'll get some answers here. I don't know what to tell you, but I did want to welcome you.

My Samson also growls and barks when he sees kids outside of our house, but in his case, he sees them as playmates and wants to go play with them. So I'm sure it's a different situation...


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

greg bell said:


> Unfortunately, there is probably somthing in his history that caused this.


Probably true...which is too bad, since their way with children is usually one of the best traits.


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

sashac said:


> Hi all,
> I am a new member to this forum, came across it surfing the web looking for answers. I recently adopted a 7 or 8 yo rescue Golden, Charlie. He has fast become the love of my life, much to my husband's chagrin.
> He has had some dominance related aggression issues - got into fights with dogs who have tried to mount him, stared at him too long/the wrong way, or have taken his toy away from him. We are working with a behaviorist but I am mainly just keeping him from situations where he gets overwhelmed with pack superiority and is forced to assert himself.
> My bigger concern is that he is extremely anxious and defensive around children, especially running, screaming and agitated children (aren't they all?) He will growl even when he is inside but hears kids playing outside. If we are outside, he growls even more and barks. Before I recognized this behavior in him, we had two little kids over one day and he freaked out. He was growling and barking and shaking and we finallly had to put him in our bedroom and shut the door, after which he alternatively barked and growled the whole time.
> I try to take him to the park when kids are playing and make him sit at a safe distance and just watch, and he is okay, but every once in a while he will growl or bark, as if for good measure. Not sure what else to do - I don't know any kids I can actually practice training with him, nor am I sure if I really trust him. Thoughts? I am worried that he will never be able to be around kids, or worse yet, I will have to muzzle him when we go outside around kids, just in case. I keep seeing him in his dog fights and thinking, what if those were children?



Unfortuntely my 5 year old golden is children aggressive at times as well. She is also a very nervous dog. Nervous dogs are the most scarey of all. They are unpredictable. I have a 10 year old and a7 year old. Lexie has been in our home since 5 or 6 weeks of age. I NEVER leave her unattended and if I see abnormal behavior in her, I separate her immediately. She's never bit the kids. I don't want to give her the chance either. 

Lexie feels protective of me. I remarried a year ago. My husband now sleeps where Lexie used too. She feels betrayed and has actually bit (not broke the skin) but trying to warn him. They have a tough time getting along now. 

It's a shame, goldens are suppose to be the "family type dog" but unfortunately it's not the case in my family. I love her with all my heart and so does everyone but I don't trust her with anyone but me. 

I should have gotten her into OB training when she was younger. I was "doggie stupid" back then. 

Good Luck


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

Yeah, that's what I thought. He was with a foster family for a while after they rescued him from a shelter (no idea about his background before that, unfortunately) and the foster did have two older kids, maybe in 6th grade or so. They didn't have any trouble with the kids and him, but he was pushy with their Golden puppy, so he moved to another home, no kids. 

I agree it's a dangerous situation - no more kids around him. I am suspicious about the reason why he was just on the street in the first place, and have wondered if this has something to do with it. He's so good-looking, who lets a purebred Golden go like that, unless it's for some serious reason? I just wish his owners had given him up "properly". I'm worried about what to do when we decide to have children. Sigh.


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

sashac said:


> Yeah, that's what I thought. He was with a foster family for a while after they rescued him from a shelter (no idea about his background before that, unfortunately) and the foster did have two older kids, maybe in 6th grade or so. They didn't have any trouble with the kids and him, but he was pushy with their Golden puppy, so he moved to another home, no kids.
> I agree it's a dangerous situation - no more kids around him. I am suspicious about the reason why he was just on the street in the first place, and have wondered if this has something to do with it. He's so good-looking, who lets a purebred Golden go like that, unless it's for some serious reason? I just wish his owners had given him up "properly". I'm worried about what to do when we decide to have children. Sigh.


Well, it's not necessarily an abuse situation that would do this. It can also be a breeding issue as well. Lexie has been in my home only.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

It is good that you don't have young children...if you did, oh my. I wouldn't trust him one bit, even if things did get better. Posting signs and guarding against accidental child meetings would be a top priority with me. I'd crate him if a small child was in the home.

Even though Lucky is very tolerant and seems to enjoy my kids....I really don't trust him and I'm on constant watch. I dont' trust him...because I really don't trust my kids. Like most all children...they have a certain aura of unstableness that can drive some dogs and some adult humans crazy. 

They may not irritate Lucky right now...cause he's a puppy yet, but I wonder if he gets older if he's going to love all this screaming, caotic wildness they bring into the room.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

One thing I can suggest is have him checked for thyroid. Our first golden, at about age 4, took a sudden dislike to the kids next door. All we could think of was that they (two young boys) had been doing something to him--throwing stuff at him over the fence, teasing, etc. But after he put on poundage over night, his fur started getting thin, etc, he was checked and he had low thyroid. Once in meds and diet, he changed back to his old self.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I too, think a check-up at the vet's is a really good place to start.

I not an expert on dog psychology but I like to dabble some... our last dog was an American Eskimo, and these dogs have a reputation as biters but our Kimo never was... he was very sweet, even to mean toddlers. Sidney, our current Golden is very sweet as well. I've recently become a big fan of Cesar Millan (aka. The Dog Whisperer on the National Geographics Channel) and I'm becoming well versed in his philosophy about dog behavior. It's under this backdrop that I offer the following advice:

First, make sure Charlie is getting enough exercise everyday... that's exhausting exercise and that's EVERY SINGLE DAY. Next, you will need to become his pack leader. Pack dogs do not usually take it upon themselves to attack another dog or sort out rowdy, boisterous children in their leader's presence without first consulting with the pack leader... protection of the pack is always signaled by the leader... no lower pack member would dare be so bold as to attack another (dog or child) in the presence of their leader without being given a "sign" first. If Charlie isn't deferring to you then you are not considered a leader in his mind... and dogs must have order, they must have a strong leader to follow otherwise they become nervous and attempt to bring about this order themselves. I realize Charlie is new to you, older, rescued, and loaded-down with baggage, however the worst thing you can do for him is to offer him comfort when his mind is "unstable" (Cesar's term for nervous, excited, anything but calm and submissive). You should practice "power walks" with him everyday... with you in the lead at all times... Charlie is either to be at your side or walking behind you BUT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES is he ever to walk in front of you! Also start practicing "Nothing In Life Is Free"... do a websearch if you are not familiar with the technique/philosophy... it basically states that YOU control all the resources (everything good in life... food, walks, playtime, pets, etc) in his life and you constantly remind him of that fact by simply requiring he do something before you give him anything he finds pleasurable. He waits while you walk through any narrow space (ie door) first, sits before you put on his leash, lays down before you put his dinner down and then waits for your "OK" before he eats, etc... Practice removing his food bowl while he is eating and removing toys from his mouth when he is still chewing them, make him move to another spot when he is sleeping/laying around. All these little exercises serve to constantly reinforce your status as the leader and Charlie as follower. Eventually, after you've made your point, you can begin easing up and "loving him" more but NEVER offer any type of affection unless he is in a calm, submissive state-of-mind. You should see improvement within mere days or a week or two in his behavior and deference to you. It's what we've always done with our dogs and they have all been sweethearts.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Your advice seems really good Monomer. Some I've practiced knowingly, some subconciously and the rest I need to work harder on. Being the undoubted pack leader when you have kids really is a must for all dogs.


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

Thanks for all the great advice - it's really helpful to hear things I can do to continue to train him. It's also good to know others have had the same problem or tried the same solutions. THANKS!!


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## LauraEyes2 (Sep 16, 2005)

Good advice Monomer


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

You might want to read Emma Parson's book Click to Calm, it's about how the author used clicker to rehab her aggressive Golden. I've never read it but it's supposed to be very good.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

sashac said:


> Hi all,
> He has had some dominance related aggression issues - got into fights with dogs who have tried to mount him, stared at him too long/the wrong way, or have taken his toy away from him. We are working with a behaviorist but I am mainly just keeping him from situations where he gets overwhelmed with pack superiority and is forced to assert himself.


This isn't your dogs problems, this is the other dogs! Any dog allowed to mount can bring on a fight, that is a sign of dominence in a dog. As far as the staring, that too is sign of confrontation.

Many times we see problems in our dogs, when in fact it isn't our dogs causing the problems, its the other dogs that are doing so. Owners should not allow there dogs to mount other dogs, but you hear of this often especially within parks where many go for exercise. Many owners do not know of the dog world and allow this, but it should never be allowed.

It is really strange though he did fine with the other children in the other rescue, and now there is a problem. Have you spoken to the family that had this dog and asked them about this?


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

This is a tough one. It's so hard to know what a seven- or eight-year-old rescue dog has been through. The advice that has been posted is all good; have him thyroid tested, maintain control of the situation at all times, etc. I think it's important to work on socializing him, as you've been doing, but perhaps you should go very slowly with him. If he's behaving in an unpredictable way, you've got to keep children away from him, period.

As you spend time with him, pay very close attention to his behavior, all the way down to how he moves his whiskers. Among each other, properly tempered dogs communicate with all kinds of subtle signals that humans usually miss. Pick up on those signals, and you can usually avoid the escalation of an uncomfortable situation.

But what if he's simply not giving you anything? One moment, everything is cool, and the next, he's scaring the daylights out of everyone in the vicinity. Is this what you are seeing? As crazy as that sounds, it happens, and it's usually due to a physical disorder or genetics.

I had a foster dog like that last year. He was a Golden/Chow mix, a beautiful, loyal, delightful, and extremely unpredictable dog.

On the other hand, my Barrington is a mix of Eskimo and Lab, and probably some other stuff. As it's been mentioned already, Eskimos can get nippy around small children, and I think that Barrington would be that way, but we've established the kind of relationship with him that gives him the confidence to look to us for direction. For example, when my toddler nephew comes over and starts getting in Barrington's space, he'll ease back from the child and look at me...sometimes, he does get a bit wild-eyed, and that is when it's time for us to go to another room. No problem---Barrington knows that I'll get him out of any uncomfortable situation.

You may be able to establish a similar relationship with your dog. I'd be reluctant to use any kind of restraining equipment such as muzzles, etc., unless he proves to be impossible to control otherwise. If you introduce that type of stuff too soon, you may undermine any trust in you that he was building. It will take considerable time and effort to build a trusting relationship, but it is definitely worth it. Thank you for rescuing him, and please keep us posted.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

This is a tough question. Most rescue groups I have dealt with would in all honesty euthanize this dog- he certainly NEVER would have been placed in a pet home. *I am by no means suggesting you do that!* However, it is a serious problem. The dog is a liability, and a LOT of extra responsibility rests on your shoulders. The reputation of the breed as a whole, peoples' safety, and the dog's security all depend on you. That said, you sound willing to work hard to keep him and other safe. He's very VERY lucky to have found you! I hope things do work out. Keep us posted.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Rescue groups have been sued for injuries caused by aggressive dogs...and the financial losses, AND the terrible emotional experience of the situation...which often involves children.... has brought about very high temperament standards. Almost excessively high. I don't blame them. Its a big responsibility to adopt out. But its a little disconcerting that Lucky's early food aggression incidents would exempt him from some rescue services.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Rescue might work with a dog that growls over food, but if it was serious they wouldn't adopt the animal out. I can't blame them. There IS NO EXCUSE FOR PEOPLE AGGRESSION. Period. I wouldn't tolerate that in my own dog. But it takes skill to be able to safely deal with that behavior, and stop it. Lucky, too is a LUCKY dog to have a caring owner!


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I have had dogs of some type all of my life and I have never ever had one that was agressive..toward people or other dogs. I train with up to 20 dogs a day and I don't know a one of them that is agressive.
Having said that, mayabe Monomer is correct. I know nothing about dog psychology. Never thought about it. But my dogs, and the ones I train with are very well trained and MIND! There is no doubt in the minds of any of these dogs as to who is in charge. 
We even trade off handling each others dogs at times. And there is just never a problem. The dogs, at times, are out at the same time and we have never even had a dog act agressive towarad another dog. We just never think about it. 
So I guess there is a dog world out there that I am just not famaliar with at all. I have never had to deal with an agressive dog. I have had some problems when neighbor dogs strayed into my yard and many, including mine, will sound a warning if another dog tries to get into "their" truck. But if the owner is there, we dont even have that problem.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Though the food aggression was months ago....he did nip my girl. And even though he shows a beautiful temperament and the food aggression is long ago history....his food aggression training will be for the rest of his life.....

So goes it with any aggression in my opinion. It should never be thought of as "over"...no matter how well the dog seems to be doing.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

greg bell said:


> I have had dogs of some type all of my life and I have never ever had one that was agressive..toward people or other dogs. I train with up to 20 dogs a day and I don't know a one of them that is agressive.
> Having said that, mayabe Monomer is correct. I know nothing about dog psychology. Never thought about it. But my dogs, and the ones I train with are very well trained and MIND! There is no doubt in the minds of any of these dogs as to who is in charge.
> We even trade off handling each others dogs at times. And there is just never a problem. The dogs, at times, are out at the same time and we have never even had a dog act agressive towarad another dog. We just never think about it.
> So I guess there is a dog world out there that I am just not famaliar with at all. I have never had to deal with an agressive dog. I have had some problems when neighbor dogs strayed into my yard and many, including mine, will sound a warning if another dog tries to get into "their" truck. But if the owner is there, we dont even have that problem.


Greg....you are the 'natural' pack leader...Its the same with my husband. He is the Alpha believe me. He doesn't need to read any book. 

Not to mention you're commensense.

And then there is me.....I have to work for it.


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## gold'nchocolate (May 31, 2005)

Lucky's mom said:


> Rescue groups have been sued for injuries caused by aggressive dogs...and the financial losses, AND the terrible emotional experience of the situation...which often involves children.... has brought about very high temperament standards. Almost excessively high. I don't blame them. Its a big responsibility to adopt out. But its a little disconcerting that Lucky's early food aggression incidents would exempt him from some rescue services.


This is the reason that when I applied to various rescue groups they weren't answering my applications. Come to find out, it was because I have small children plus I have a small home based daycare here. One group finally answered my repeated emails by telling me that they never adopt out to homes with very young children and/or daycares because of liability issues.

All of the advice you recieved was excellent. Better to be safe than sorry...have him under control whenever he is around small and noisy children.
Cathy


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

Thank you for all of your replies - they have been very helpful and funnily enough, reassuring. I've sometimes felt embarrassed explaining to others that he can't come over because of their kids - people have sometimes assumed he's this wild untamed dog that will eat their kids when in fact he is a loving dog (can't deny the kids part, though!). Other times, I've just felt like maybe I was being too sensitive and wondered how he would ever be socialized if he was never around kids. But your responses have confirmed my instincts and I'm being very careful to keep him away from children. 

As far as the tips I've received - everything around how to continue to assert my dominance over him, such that he looks to me in nervous situations rather than acting on his own - has made a lot of sense. We got on power walks now, where I keep him a little bit behind me or right next to my legs. While this has been somewhat tiring with an overweight Golden, it has made a world of a difference in his attitude towards me. He also gets so tired that when he sees another dog or hears a kid in park across the street, he doesn't even look up. He's also on the "nothing in life is free" boot camp - and he is now used to lying down in front of his bowl without me asking before I let him get up and eat. I feel bad sometimes, but he does look to me a LOT more than he did before. The other day, I walked him across from a baseball diamond where some kids where playing a league game. I made him sit (we were fairly far, but he could hear the kids running around and screaminig) and watch for a while. At first he sat tense, with his ears perked up, and kept looking at me. After a while though, he relaxed and began to lose interest. When a kid came running after a fly ball, and it looked like he was running towards us (apart from the huge fence separating us), Charlie didn't even care, even though he could see. I took him home soon after and he was fine. He's never going to be any closer to kids despite a controlled environment, because you just never know, but it's good to know I'm getting him under some sort of control with his own fears. 

Thanks a lot for your help!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

He's lucky to have you! Thanks for the update. We love pics here, btw


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

Thats great!! You touched on something that is very important, that being heeling on walks. Untrained dogs need direction, and heeling will help accomplish this.

My pet peeve is people putting untrained dogs that pull into retractable leashes, these devices give the handler nothing in the line of control, they teach nothing....and they even allow there dogs to create havic with others because of those leashes. I see this alot and it just really bothers me. I've also had a dog run at Kode in one of these things and the owner had zero control.

Sounds like your getting a pretty good handle on it.....Good for you!


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## memlili (Mar 16, 2006)

I was glad to see someone suggest that this dog's issue might be poor breeding. Our first dog was an English Springer Spaniel, the last of a litter bred by friends and a gift to us. He had a pedigree to match anyone ~ relatives of his win Best in Breed at Westminster to this day. He was magnificent to look at and we loved him but............ he was protective of me when repairmen came to the house. I appreciated that. Then he became protective when friends came over, then when family came to visit. One night we awoke from a deep sleep to find him inches from my husband's face, baring his teeth and growling. We had him put down shortly thereafter. If he would growl at us when we were sleeping, he couldn't be trusted. In retrospect, the parent dogs were beautiful and had impressive pedigrees but neither had a stable personality. Two of his littermates were unstable as well. A "nephew" of his bit the 1-1/2 year-old of the house in the face, requiring stitches and they said the baby had "Startled the dog in its sleep". A year later the dog went for a friend's little girl and tore her face open. Unfortunately when a breed becomes popular there are those who want to capitalize on the popularity and they breed their dogs without really knowing what they are doing. Goldens are supposed to be the most easy-going, friendly creatures but there are plenty out there who are nervous and agressive. All that said, I urge anyone who has a dog that has shown any unstable tendancies to NEVER leave the dog in a situation where children could be harmed. A squealing child sounds like wild prey to some dogs and basic instinct can kick in with tragic results. It truly is never the dog's fault, because somewhere along the line humans affected how the dog's psyche developed. But we all have to make sure the children in our lives are safe.

Sorry to be so long. Good luck with this dog. He is lucky you took him in and care enough to work with him.

Memlili


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Sashac...

Your reply was very heartening... it gave me cause to smile. Thanks for providing an update on your situation. So often people will come to the forum seeking advice and either not take to heart any of the advice or simply never provide any follow-up as to whether a resolution was achieved or not... so anyone seeking a solution to a similar problem and coming across the thread has no idea what may have worked or what didn't... really sucks when you are desperate for answers. In my opinion, you did a lot of things right... joining the forum (instead of merely lurking) and asking for help... being honest in your appraisal... taking advice that was offered to heart... and then actually trying it for a reasonable amount of time... and finally posting back to your original thread with outcomes (so far). Excellent attitude! Keep up your efforts and I'm sure even better results are yet to come.

I can't tell you how pleased I am with the progress the two of you have already made... your story will be the smile on my face for the rest of the day. And I wish you more continued success...


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## fsulisa (Mar 23, 2006)

*A different kind of problem*

My golden's name is Rocky and he's about 10 months old. He was never abused because we got him when he was 8 weeks old from the breeder. He is in no way aggressive and he's a very happy puppy. One thing about him really bothers me though. He seems to be afraid of people and I don't know why. We took him to puppy head start classes at Petsmart and we take him to a dog park where he's fine with all of the people there. He's fine with all of my family members and my boyfriend's family members. He's also fine with our friends. When people he doesn't know come into the apartment or house, he barks a lot at them at first and then after about 5 minutes of sniffing he's fine. The big problem is when we're walking down the street or in a store and sometimes at the dog park, if a person he doesn't know comes close to him or tries to pet him, he barks and hides behind me. He won't let people he doesn't know pet him. If I try to force him to meet people, his tail goes between his legs, his ears tuck back, he hides behind me, and sometimes he growls out of fear. He's even done this to kids. If I talk to a new person for a while, he eventually will lift his tail and go near the person and let him/her pet him. I understand that this is unusual for goldens to be unsociable around people and I was wondering what I could do to help him become more comfortable around people. Does anybody have any suggestions? The only thing that I can think of is that the breeder had him out all by himself in a pen in a barn, so he wasn't around people all that much and the people in my boyfriend's apartment complex aren't that sociable, so we don't talk to anyone. Any advice would be helpful. Thanks


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Rather than give you some big, long spiel... which is my usual M.O. I'll offer you a suggestion.

First of all, your Rocky is still just a puppy and it sounds like he's just a bit shy... well, some people are just shy people too, dogs can be the same way... however, he may well just grow out of it with time as he builds more confidence. For now how about taking him to your local Wal-Mart and just walk around outside. Don't get too close to the shoppers and their clanging shopping carts at first. Just watch Rocky's reactions and let that be your guide as to when to get a little closer. I would do this maybe twice a day for about a half-hour each time... after several days of this you should be able to approach the doors were an endless line of shoppers are entering or exiting... some will want to 'pet the puppy'... give them a treat to give to the puppy. I think over a short couple of weeks Rocky will decide he really likes strangers... Anyway, that's what I would try to do if Rocky were mine.


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## goldencity (May 26, 2005)

What we have always done with our dogs is similar to the last post.
As soon as their vacinations were in order, we would take them shopping. Not in shops of course, but there is nothing like walking round an open air market with 2 GR pups for being the center of attention. When they were tiny we would carry them, at first go later in the day when it is a bit quiter and limit the time. Build up slowly to the full on experience- all human life is there and now nothing upsets them.

Well, except morris dancers! For you not familiar with them- traditional english folk dancers wearing wooden clogs, bells and waving sticks about. The noise and shouting terrified our normally calm Millie when she saw them for the first time last September.

So I guess the answer is, that to a dog, new and strange is frightening and ordinary and familiar is not. And to have a calm laid back dog, they need to become familiar with as many things as possible.


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## for_my_golden (Oct 20, 2005)

*Rescue Dogs - Unsure of their situations*

Working with rescue daily I have found that there are many things that you can't predict...especially health, behavior and temperament. We would all like to think that all goldens have "golden" personalities but they don't. Depending on the situation, which you may never know the entire story behind your dog, something may have happened to make him behave this way. We would like to think that all pet owners are like ourselves but they aren't. Many people have "dogs" not family members. With time and patients you may be able to change his negative behavior but there is always a chance that you won't be able to. I too would start with the vet and make sure he is in good health...you know yourself that when you don't feel well you tend to get fussy and so do dogs. I wish you the best of luck with this.


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## Maria (Nov 14, 2005)

Hi All – not sure whether I should have started a new thread for this but I have been reading your comments about dogs growling around children I have a similar problem with my 8 month old GT and bones. He is a wonderful dog, very affectionate and very obedient (most of the time). He endlessly plays with my children and is a joy to have in our lives. BUT, when I occasionally give him a bone he changes into a different dog – you cannot get within a foot of him without him growling. At first I told the children to keep away and give him his space but the other day I walked passed him and he really growled and barked (I was quite shocked by his behavior). I grabbed him by the scruff off the neck and my husband took the bone away from him. I then realised that you cannot trust a dog 100%. My friend has his brother and she says she can take bones away from her dog and there is absolutely no reaction whatsoever. Can anyone advise me on how to deal with this, my children are 12+ and know the score, I would hate to see what could happen if a younger child was around. Help I love him to bits and hate to see this side of him!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

*Regarding food aggression*

Hello Maria,

Food aggression is pretty common and will get worse if not dealt with. I had some issues with it...and though I don't trust Lucky 100%....he has not shown an issue in a long time. With him, I watch him and work with him when he has a new and exciting bone. Thankfully, even those new and exciting bones haven't cause issues. I have very small children and yes, it is a concern.

I'm posting a thread that helped me ALOT! The food aggression info is hidden (it was a topic turn) within the thread. You will find excellent help if you click on the second page. The food aggression info starts on the bottom of the second page and goes all the way through.

I hope this will help.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=7831&page


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## Maria (Nov 14, 2005)

Dear Luckys Mom

Thank you very much for your reply. I have read the threads you posted and found them really helpful. I am going to have a go at giving him a bone tonight and then taking it away, (with my husband of course). My husband is not at all fazed by him. It is me who is with him most of the time so I am going to have to try and hide my nerves (as I must admit this sort of situation scares me). It is not the bite that I am afraid of it is more seeing him acting this way and being agressive towards me when usually he is so loving. If he does bite I will be worried how I will react (although deep down I don't think he will) ..... there are so many issues involved here.

I will let you know how I get on tomorrow.

Again thanks for your reply.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

Good luck. I have always been so lucky and never had a food aggression issue with any of our dogs, so never had to deal with it.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

I would be afraid of the bite, and eight month old pup can throw a good bite. You do not work with aggression towards a highly prized possession by just giving it, then taking it. This is asking for it too only get worse. I do not believe in the scruff shake as well for it, because one does not fix an aggressive issue by being aggressive. JMHO You will not end up with a trustworthy dog by doing this. You will end up with a fearful dog.

There are steps one takes to handle this problem. I seen this type of aggression in my last pup Telly upon having him only two weeks and giving him a rawhide. Steps were taken to work through it, and it took me about a month or so to work through it.

Until you get a handle on this problem, there should be no children near him if he was to get one. The growl is a sign from the dog to back up, they cannot speak our language so we have to read there's. Do not punish that growl either...you want to work this golden through that, not just up and scruff shake and take it away because he may then just throw the bite without giving the warning sign. This is why it is best to handle this in steps, and work up to fixing the problem. Your husband may well have been able to scruff shake this dog, but one of the children will not be able to do this and what do you do if he is not there and one of the children reaches for that bone?? It is a problem, you found it....thats good! But now you need to work with it correctly inable to fix it.

I personally do not give my dogs bones, this isn't saying Kody doesn't find them out on our walks but I can just reach my hand in and take them at anytime, I've been doing it now since the snow left cause he finds them everytime out on walks. Bianka is the same way, I can take anything from her. But Telly had an issue with this till I worked with him as a young pup the minute I seen the problem in him. Telly was the same way as yours, sweetest boy ever....but that rawhide brought out the beast in him when first given a rawhide. lol But handling it correctly fixed the the problem. I myself though do not give rawhides if others are in the house with me, or if Bianka and Cracker are here inside because it may cause a growl between the two dogs wanting them and if anyone is near and the dog go to reach for it from the other, and a hand go near there one could accidentally get in the middle of a bite that was meant towards the other dog....so I avoid that all together as well by not allowing them if company is here. Just precaution I take!


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## Maria (Nov 14, 2005)

Thanks again for your replies. I really apologise for not starting a new thread for this but I am still a novice on this site. I have just found out this morning how to start new threads - did do it once before but couldn't remember how I did it..... sorry to ramble.

Just thought I'd let you know how I got on last night.... Well I wasn't brave enough to handle the bone situation so I thought I'd have a go at taking his food (the bowl) away from him as a first step..... I always make him sit before I give him his food which he always does but last night I thought I would make him sit for a bit longer before I let him eat it. I placed the food on the floor telling him to sit and then I said 'leave' and walked back a few steps - he was desperate but he waited and left it until I gave him the command to eat. I then, (half way through him munching) moved the bowl and told him to leave (which he did) So far so good. 

When I take him out for his morning walk he usually tends to sniff and pick things up, I usually let him do it, but this morning I told him to leave certain things and he did.

It would be easy for me not to let him have bones/rawhide but I know I must confront the situation and will let you know how I get on, when I muster up the courage. 

Cheers everyone


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

Interesting. I have been around retrievers for a long long time.. and have owned goldens for 30 years... have never encountered a single one that would growl at anybody.. but then all of them that I deal with have been well trained, exercised, and disciplined so maybe there is somthing to what Monomer is saying.. I'm not much on dog psychology, but mine do know who the boss is.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

I have heard that the golden is the one dog that is throwing quite a few bites and the reason I heard this is happening is because of the goldens reputation as being the best dog with such a good temperment so people think when they see one in a yard and such they can just reach down and start petting it I guess. The problem with this theory is, they all do not have this temperment and are being bred by many that do not consider temperment upon a breeding. Many of these dogs are not coming from responsible breeders that have done the back checks on all the dogs, as well as all the research.

The Golden Retriever right now is #2 on the AKC list for registrations, they are right behind the lab which means there are a lot of them out there today being bred and many are coming from puppy mills, pet stores, irresponsible breeders. Many have been undersocialized as puppies as well, or abused in someway.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I wonder if more blame should be put on the breeders or the buyers.. if people were careful in what they were looking for, there would be no market for em.. 
You have all met these buyers... I am getting an AKC registered golden retriever and have read the breed description and that is what I want..
they then shop for the best price on a genuine akc registered golden retriever.. sad but true..


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

I think the blame falls on the buyers since if the demand wasn't there the irresponsible breeders wouldn't be breeding them as heavily as they are now for greed. But at the same time I have to remember that years back I thought if a dog came with AKC papers, that meant you were getting a top dog. lol I was soooooo nieve then. I found this out upon getting my lab, he broke me of ever wanting to own another. I think there still is a lot of educating out their that needs to be done when it comes to buying a Golden, as well as any other breed for that matter so I hate to say it's all the people's fault as well.

Even as much as I know right now about this breed, which by the way isn't everything. I still would fall for a golden I seen in need of a home, no matter where it came from even though I know it can have some problems do it's breeding. I know better, but yet I just love them all. But I won't buy from a irresponsible breeder because I know not to supply there demand for greed just so they in turn can pump out another litter.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Maria said:


> Well I wasn't brave enough to handle the bone situation so I thought I'd have a go at taking his food (the bowl) away from him as a first step


As Goldndust said, it is risky to "give" a dog possession of a bone and then take it back, if they are not trained to be submissive. I did that when Lucky was 14 weeks, and it turned into quite the situation. I don't want to go through that again!

What I do now when ever Lucky has a new and exciting bone is never really "give" it to him until he clearly understands that the bone will never truely be his. I do this by making him sit, go down and all that....but mainly I let him chew with me holding on. 

I know Lucky enough that he will not get into this aggressive mode until he takes full possession...so with him I feel safe holding the bone and letting him gnaw. Everytime he gets too close to my finger or scrapes human skin accidently I say ouch and my hand and chew bone is taken away. After I take it a couple of times, smell it, give it back (still holding it), pet him and praise him (for not biting me of course) then I let him chew with me beside him...in his space. 

I let the kids do the same thing. With me right there of course. They hold it while he is chewing. Take it, sniff it. Make him do commands. ANd then I praise the heck out of him (for not biting them of course). 

AFter a while I put the bone up. It comes down only when I have time to work with him on it. Pretty soon he treats the new and exciting bone as something to enjoy.....but non-chalant if people get near. It ends up in his toybasket with all the rest. Though it might make sense to put them all up till I decide to let him enjoy some chewing. I'll have to think about that.

I also play the "leave it" game...where he gets treats if he leaves it on command. I use treats as I want him to have a pure feel-good feeling everytime he has to leave his bone, or if it is taken. When he is submissive with me taking it...or if he leaves his chew toy on command...he gets alot of excessive love and praise.

When a kid plops down beside him as he chews and he simply doesn't care (which is all the time now), I just love him to death with petting and praises stroking his mouth and head as he's gnawing away. I then take my kid and give him or her a real talking too!!!!

I will never fully trust him...and the kids are supposed to never go to him when he is chewing. Quite frankly...I would never trust ANY dog. Their teeth are too sharp and jaws to strong.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

all of this is really interesting to me... I just never thought about it.. if my dogs are eating somthing I dont want them to have I just go right into their mouth after it... never been a problem.... 
but, yeah, I would never do that with a strange dog..


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Greg.....fear is a terrible thing. This stuff ain't just good for the dog. It gives the master confidence through control.

I think dogs can pick up cues....They know when and where a person is vulnerable. Lucky has tested me much, much more then Tim. 

Now I do believe that you have to take control...and quite frankly I would never back down from Lucky if he growled a "get back from my bone" growl. He is simply never allowed to tell me that. 

But the prospect of that happening has in the past been very intimidating. Plus...this is a good way to get kids involved and helps a dog change attitudes towards them.


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## GOODTIMN (May 30, 2005)

In getting back to the original post about growling at kids, and yes working with a rescue dog. Then with knowing that this dog has issues with (some) kids and gets nervous with (some) kids then so be it...... Somethings just cannot be changed and I would never ever put a kid at risk with knowing that your dog may be a biter/fear biter....

With being in dogs for 30 yrs and owning a training facility, I many times put the dog with issues into ""situation"" training, but in this instance-- not with a kid, I use a trained professional person for that training...... Kinda of hard, let alone long to explain, so if you can find a great trainer who will work with this issue then it would determine if your dog is capable of working out the problem, but remember not everything can be changed and if your growling ( possible biting) problem cannot be solved then you must learn to adjust your life style to the attitude of the dog!!!!

I know that being the pack leader as a human is important but I also dont ever forget they these are ""DOGS"" and as much as I would love to say that I'm ""ALWAYS"" the ""LEADER"" well at times isnt true, especially with an ""ALPHA"" dog, be it a male or a bitch, so when that happens then a meeting of the minds and a meeting of body language is how we compromise---- makes life easier for myself and the dog!!!

Dont ever, ever underestimate the mind of a dog, for it can change in a heart beat, and in doing so may put people and other dogs at risk...


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

GOODTIMN said:


> In getting back to the original post about growling at kids, and yes working with a rescue dog. Then with knowing that this dog has issues with (some) kids and gets nervous with (some) kids then so be it...... Somethings just cannot be changed and I would never ever put a kid at risk with knowing that your dog may be a biter/fear biter....
> 
> With being in dogs for 30 yrs and owning a training facility, I many times put the dog with issues into ""situation"" training, but in this instance-- not with a kid, I use a trained professional person for that training...... Kinda of hard, let alone long to explain, so if you can find a great trainer who will work with this issue then it would determine if your dog is capable of working out the problem, but remember not everything can be changed and if your growling ( possible biting) problem cannot be solved then you must learn to adjust your life style to the attitude of the dog!!!!
> 
> ...



Well said.. I totally agree!


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## Maura55 (Nov 25, 2007)

My 6 month old golden retriever Simba barks and sometimes growls when we play with him. We usually play fetch or throw a tennis ball to him for him to catch. He catches pretty well. However, he doesn't let go of the ball or play stick unless you pull it out of his mouth. He doesn't bark or growl while your taking it from him. But after a while of playing, he starts barking and sometimes growls. The behavior seems to be getting more frequent. Lately, he's also started biting our feet and pant legs. When you pull him off, he tries to snap at you. He's good about 80% of the time, but he's been growling and barking more lately. He was neutured about a week ago and it seems to be healing fine. We thought he'd act better after his surgery, but he seems to be getting more aggressive. He also barks at us as we're coming up the stairs into the house from the front door. I think it might be because he thinks we want to bring him outside and he doesn't want to go. In any case, does anyone else have any of these problems with their golden, or any advice? He's not what we expected in terms of the gentle goldens we've always heard about. Please help.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Sounds like normal dog play to me. Your dog is still very much a puppy, and still playing like a puppy. I think others here can help you with the play biting and how to curb that. Lots of young goldens, and puppies of other breeds also, have issues with play biting. 

I'm curious, what do you mean by "snapping" at you? Please describe that more. I'm thinking that also is a form of play biting, and not real aggression. 

As far as barking when you come home, my golden does that also. I think it's her way of saying "HI, I'M SO GLAD YOU'RE FINALLY HOME!!!" 

Your golden will calm down alot in the coming months, you'll be very surprised. I really don't think what you're describing is aggression. Even the growling, lots of golden puppies will growl when they're playing.

:wavey:


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## Maura55 (Nov 25, 2007)

Thanks Jo Ellen. What we mean by "snapping" is that he looks like he wants to bite your hand. He's also started doing this snapping when we try to pull him off the couch (when he stands up near/on the couch.) He won't get off when we say "off" so we've been pulling him off by pulling his collar when we say "off." He looks like he wants to bite us when we pull him off the couch, as well as "off" our feet/leg when he's biting them. Also, when we barks at us when we come up the stairs, it's not when we're coming home from anywhere. It's when we're coming upstairs from the basement laundry room, playroom, etc. That's also where we keep his crate where he sleeps at night. We also keep him in the crate when we leave the house and no one is home. He can't be trusted alone roaming in the house if no one is around to watch him.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Bumping back up.....


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

delete...............................


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Maura55 said:


> Thanks Jo Ellen. What we mean by "snapping" is that he looks like he wants to bite your hand. He's also started doing this snapping when we try to pull him off the couch (when he stands up near/on the couch.) He won't get off when we say "off" so we've been pulling him off by pulling his collar when we say "off." He looks like he wants to bite us when we pull him off the couch, as well as "off" our feet/leg when he's biting them. Also, when we barks at us when we come up the stairs, it's not when we're coming home from anywhere. It's when we're coming upstairs from the basement laundry room, playroom, etc. That's also where we keep his crate where he sleeps at night. We also keep him in the crate when we leave the house and no one is home. He can't be trusted alone roaming in the house if no one is around to watch him.


It really hard to tell from your post if your puppy is truely aggressive or simply having some teenage, obnoxious fun. But this is a time when they act like teenagers, testing the waters on what they can get a way with...

You might create a new thread on this as, people will be missing your post as they read through the orginal post.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I agree, new thread. Thank you, LM, I was thinking the same thing.

I hope you do that, Maura. I think you'll get lots of feedback and some really good suggestions. Just cut and paste your original post, simple stuff !!

:wavey:


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