# Normal T4 level for a dog on Thyroid medication



## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Here is a thread with a good article
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...thyroid-dog-interesting-article-dr-hines.html

Here is the information from the website for Dr Jean Dodds. Towards the bottom is some good information on it. That is where I had Beau's bloodwork sent. And she had information back to me within 48 hours. 
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/NEWS.HTM


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## tanianault (Dec 11, 2010)

"Normal" ranges for thyroid levels are based on an average determined by what is "normal" for 95% of a population. For example, if you test 100 animals and 95 of the animals came back with T4 scores ranging between 1.0 and 4.7 with the remaining 5 animals either lower or higher than that range, then between 1.0 and 4.7 would be considered the "normal" range.

Alkaline Phosphatase is a liver enzyme and while high levels can be used as an indicator of a number of diseases, low ALP levels are not known to have any cause related to illness or disease in dogs.

Cholesterol levels in dogs are not charted for the same reason as with humans (e.g. as an indicator of heart/circulatory problems). Rather, high cholesterol in dogs can be an indicator of poor thyroid function. 

If I were you, yes, I would do my own reading and research, however, I would also phone my vet's office and ask if there was a convenient time for him to fully explain the lab results to me.

- Tania


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

BeauShel said:


> Here is a thread with a good article
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...thyroid-dog-interesting-article-dr-hines.html
> 
> Here is the information from the website for Dr Jean Dodds. Towards the bottom is some good information on it. That is where I had Beau's bloodwork sent. And she had information back to me within 48 hours.
> NEWS.HTM


Carol, thanks for reposting these links! While I totally disagree with Dr. Dodds about taking hypothyroid dogs off HW prevention, especially in TX, to help thyroid function, she does mention something very interesting--eliminating BHA/BHT preservatives in a diet as well as a lower protein diet might help with hypothyroidism. Funny thing--I did switch Toby several months ago to a new kibble that is lower protein and BHA/BHT free and his T4 measurements are steadily increasing. I thought it might be seasonally related, but perhaps the dietary change plays a part too! I can barely keep weight on him now and his T4 is at 4. Hmmmm. Food for thought!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, too high T4 can cause high blood pressure and associated kidney damage. That's good reason for cutting the thyroid dose.
Cholesterol in dogs can also be related to when they had their last meal relative to the test, and isn't something vets get too excited about.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I havent heard of Dr Dodd's saying to stop heartworm meds. I know that some heartworm meds can set off seizures. And some seizures can be caused by low thyroid. So if you have a dog with seizures, I recommend taking them off Heartguard which has Ivermectin and putting them on Interceptor which doesnt. Ivermectin can set off seizures for some reason. I know she also says to not put to many flea & tick meds because of the chemicals.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

BeauShel said:


> I havent heard of Dr Dodd's saying to stop heartworm meds. I know that some heartworm meds can set off seizures. And some seizures can be caused by low thyroid. So if you have a dog with seizures, I recommend taking them off Heartguard which has Ivermectin and putting them on Interceptor which doesnt. Ivermectin can set off seizures for some reason. I know she also says to not put to many flea & tick meds because of the chemicals.


Oh she did recommend exactly that to a patient at the clinic we use. The owner asked the vet to work with Dr. Dodds on her dog's thyroid issues and unbeknownst to the vet, Dr. Dodds spoke directly with the owner and advised them to discontinue HW prevention to help the thyroid, without talking to the vet first. You don't discontinue HW preventative in TX without a thorough discussion with a vet! Mosquitos are a year round problem here, like in Florida. That's just asking for trouble to recommend stopping HW prevention without discussing with the primary vet first, before recommending it to the owner. Several months later that dog came down with a case of HW, the vet asked why the owner discontinued the medication and discovered Dr. Dodds told her it would be okay. The clinic no longer works with Dr. Dodds, no exceptions. It uses Michigan State University instead. Late last year I asked Toby's vet about something Dr. Dodds was offering that was supposedly unique. She pointed out that MSU did this same test several years ago on Toby, and it wasn't so unique after all.

Despite that, it's interesting to hear Dr. Dodds discuss food additives and how they affect thyroid function.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I am sorry to hear that about Dr. Dodds. She was a big help when Gunner was tested for low thyroid. I would not stop HW protection here in NE either.. three seasons of the year mosquitoes are rampant. Last year fleas were also prolific due to how wet it was so we need to use Frontline or Revolution.

Gunner's results just came back from MSU and his yearly check and his thyroid level is great on .5 twice a day.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Debles said:


> I am sorry to hear that about Dr. Dodds. She was a big help when Gunner was tested for low thyroid. I would not stop HW protection here in NE either.. three seasons of the year mosquitoes are rampant. Last year fleas were also prolific due to how wet it was so we need to use Frontline or Revolution.
> 
> Gunner's results just came back from MSU and his yearly check and his thyroid level is great on .5 twice a day.


That's good news about Gunner! 

I'm beginning to suspect Toby may need a slight adjustment down in his thyroid medication. He cannot keep weight on anymore and he's got pre-hypertensive issues. I've posted in another thread about my suspicion he has seasonal hypothyroidism and today I learned that BHA may interfere with thyroid absorption. His new kibble, switched about the time his thyroid levels started increasing, has no BHA.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Interesting discussion.
I wonder if those of you who give thyroid Rx, give it on an empty stomach, and how many (for ease of administration and helping to remember) give it with meals.
Has anyone tried it both ways, and tested thyroid levels, to check the impact?


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

Dallas Gold said:


> Carol, thanks for reposting these links! While I totally disagree with Dr. Dodds about taking hypothyroid dogs off HW prevention, especially in TX, to help thyroid function, she does mention something very interesting--eliminating BHA/BHT preservatives in a diet as well as a lower protein diet might help with hypothyroidism. Funny thing--I did switch Toby several months ago to a new kibble that is lower protein and BHA/BHT free and his T4 measurements are steadily increasing. I thought it might be seasonally related, but perhaps the dietary change plays a part too! I can barely keep weight on him now and his T4 is at 4. Hmmmm. Food for thought!


You know with respect to the lower protein diet that she recommends for dogs with hypothyroidism, it seems at complete odds with what she advised me last May when I consulted with her through email regarding Katie's low-normal thyroid results.
She mentioned specificially to me to ensure Katie was completely grain free, including treats. So if she's recommending no grains, and low protein - what else, other than vegetables would a diet consist of?

When I read that article, I found it went against what she recommended to me personally. Perhaps, this week I will send her an email for clarification, as I'm definitely curious.

For what it's worth, I didn't follow her advice completely. While I have eliminated a large amount of the grains, I still include some for fiber and to help keep her bulked up. When she gets too high protein, she tends to lose weight and just not look as healthy.

Just more food for thought!

Kim


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

lgnutah said:


> Interesting discussion.
> I wonder if those of you who give thyroid Rx, give it on an empty stomach, and how many (for ease of administration and helping to remember) give it with meals.
> Has anyone tried it both ways, and tested thyroid levels, to check the impact?


We personally give it with food even though the recommendation is to give it on an empty stomach. More often than not, we were forgeting to give the pill. It just wasn't pratical. And those days that she had to eat her breakfast really early, we would always forget to set our alarm an hour earlier to give her the pill. Also, we found she would spit her pills out, so we weren't sure she was always getting them. When we give with her food, we know she gets them as she leaves her bowl a spit shine every time!! LOL

Perhaps the dosage might be a little lower if we were to follow the correct method of feeding on an empty stomach, but we're fine finding the dosage that works best when given with food. She does seem to be metabolizing her pills fairly well, as her bloodwork with respect to her thyroid is now balanced and the issues we were supplementing for seem to have eased!

Kim


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

lgnutah said:


> Interesting discussion.
> I wonder if those of you who give thyroid Rx, give it on an empty stomach, and how many (for ease of administration and helping to remember) give it with meals.
> Has anyone tried it both ways, and tested thyroid levels, to check the impact?


I give Toby his thyroid meds once a day, right after he wakes, in a tiny part of a Greenie Pill Pocket, as a reward for letting me put his neo/poly/dex drops in his eyes for his cataracts. Then we go for a 90 minute walk, come back and he eats. Since we dose once a day, on veterinarian instructions, we were up to .8 dosage. He weighs 57 now (). Before we knew to give it on an empty stomach Toby's levels were consistently low. After we gave it on an empty stomach his levels were still consistently low. Not much help, eh?  At that time he was on a kibble with BHA and other heavy preservatives. We switched him to a higher fiber, lower protein, BHA free, almost salt-free kibble recently and his thyroid levels are steadily increasing, while his weight is decreasing. Obviously I'm currently adjusting his kibble upwards to increase the weight, which he loves. After switching the kibble his energy and Tobyisms returned. This includes upturning our rugs, zoomies, countersurfing "stuff" for a reward, and being a sock thief.  I'm happy to see his crazy personality re-emerge but best of all, with the new kibble, his poops firmed up.  So, to answer your question, I'm not sure what the true effect of giving it to him on an empty tummy is because I highly suspect the kibble switch is affecting his absorption. 

I also suspect he has seasonal hypothyroidism and that also plays into my confusion on how to stabilize him! 

One other question I have is whether the neo/poly/dex eye drops contribute in any way. We increased the drops, on vet instructions, when a new cataract was discovered in his good eye. This occurred about the same time as the kibble switch..so many factors! 

Our regular vet has an owner of a hypothyroid dog who has an entirely different take on hypothyroidism. He is a research scientist and is convinced the flame retardants in rugs, carpeting and household products are affecting our dogs' hormone levels. His theory is they walk on them, get the stuff on their paws, then lick and ingest it into their bodies. They also rest on the chemical additives in these products and inhale the chemicals. It's an interesting theory because it also has implications for hormone changes for humans, especially young children.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Katie and Paddy's Mum said:


> You know with respect to the lower protein diet that she recommends for dogs with hypothyroidism, it seems at complete odds with what she advised me last May when I consulted with her through email regarding Katie's low-normal thyroid results.
> She mentioned specificially to me to ensure Katie was completely grain free, including treats. So if she's recommending no grains, and low protein - what else, other than vegetables would a diet consist of?
> 
> When I read that article, I found it went against what she recommended to me personally. Perhaps, this week I will send her an email for clarification, as I'm definitely curious.
> ...


Please post if she responds to your email. I found the comments in that link very interesting. 

If Katie is stabilized that's great! Two of my other dogs were always very stable thyroid medication wise. Toby is the dog we experience the most difficulty with. We will probably continue our regimen of annual MSU full profile panels with quarterly thyroid absorption tests.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Dallas Gold, I am assuming that Toby's eye meds don't have steroids in them? Because I did read while researching Jasper's thyroid issues that steroids will lower the reading.

That's really interesting about the grain free food. I just changed my dogs over to CA Nat grain free in December. I wonder if that will help Jasper, then. I won't hear the results of his bloodwork until tomorrow afternoon. It's killing me to wait!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

fostermom said:


> Dallas Gold, I am assuming that Toby's eye meds don't have steroids in them? Because I did read while researching Jasper's thyroid issues that steroids will lower the reading.
> 
> That's really interesting about the grain free food. I just changed my dogs over to CA Nat grain free in December. I wonder if that will help Jasper, then. I won't hear the results of his bloodwork until tomorrow afternoon. It's killing me to wait!


Yes, the neo/poly/dex drops are topical steroid drops. I asked Toby's opthamologist, Barkley's oncologist and Toby's regular vet if they can affect thyroid levels and they all said no because they are topical only...none of those responses made sense to me because surely his eye absorbs some of the meds and it goes into his system somehow. Do you remember in your reading if they were talking about oral/injected steroids or topical too? Granted, Toby only gets one drop in each eye every day, but he's been on this prescription since before I adopted him at 5 months of age. He will be 7 on 1/24. 

I hope Jasper gets good results! :crossfing Please post when you find out.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Oh she did recommend exactly that to a patient at the clinic we use. The owner asked the vet to work with Dr. Dodds on her dog's thyroid issues and unbeknownst to the vet, Dr. Dodds spoke directly with the owner and advised them to discontinue HW prevention to help the thyroid, without talking to the vet first. You don't discontinue HW preventative in TX without a thorough discussion with a vet! Mosquitos are a year round problem here, like in Florida. That's just asking for trouble to recommend stopping HW prevention without discussing with the primary vet first, before recommending it to the owner. Several months later that dog came down with a case of HW, the vet asked why the owner discontinued the medication and discovered Dr. Dodds told her it would be okay. The clinic no longer works with Dr. Dodds, no exceptions. It uses Michigan State University instead. Late last year I asked Toby's vet about something Dr. Dodds was offering that was supposedly unique. She pointed out that MSU did this same test several years ago on Toby, and it wasn't so unique after all.
> 
> Despite that, it's interesting to hear Dr. Dodds discuss food additives and how they affect thyroid function.


Hmmm like Cariol, I find that interesting about Dr. Dodds too. I have been working with her for years with my thyroid dogs and she knows they are on Heartguard. In fact, now that I think about it. She told me to use Heartguard not Heartguard plus because we don't have the kind of parasites that the plus kills. She even OK'd it for Morgan before we knew she was missing part of her brain and Morgan's thyroid never worked. I am not trying to get into anything here, but I am wondering if your Vet ever talked with Dr. Dodds directly to find out what happened. This just doesn't sound like her at all. I know she was very concerned for Morgan when we had to take her off Heartguard as we do have a Heartworm problem here.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Claire's Friend said:


> Hmmm like Cariol, I find that interesting about Dr. Dodds too. I have been working with her for years with my thyroid dogs and she knows they are on Heartguard. In fact, now that I think about it. She told me to use Heartguard not Heartguard plus because we don't have the kind of parasites that the plus kills. She even OK'd it for Morgan before we knew she was missing part of her brain and Morgan's thyroid never worked. I am not trying to get into anything here, but I am wondering if your Vet ever talked with Dr. Dodds directly to find out what happened. This just doesn't sound like her at all. I know she was very concerned for Morgan when we had to take her off Heartguard as we do have a Heartworm problem here.


I'm not sure what transpired between the vet and Dr. Dodds. All I know is they steadfastly refuse to work with her now. I could speculate on what I think happened, which involves some client misunderstanding, but the bottom line is our veterinary clinic now uses MSU exclusively for initial thyroid diagnosis and anytime they need an interpretation. This happened many years ago BTW because our first Golden was tested through MSU as well. 

When I asked Toby's regular vet about something Dr. Dodds was proclaiming on her website she actually posted the question on the VIN website and got a lot of responses from veterinarians disputing Dr. Dodd's claim. So I know she is controversial with other vets as well. That doesn't stop me from reading what she suggests and asking my own vets....I just need to not mention where I got the information from.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Yes, the neo/poly/dex drops are topical steroid drops. I asked Toby's opthamologist, Barkley's oncologist and Toby's regular vet if they can affect thyroid levels and they all said no because they are topical only...none of those responses made sense to me because surely his eye absorbs some of the meds and it goes into his system somehow. Do you remember in your reading if they were talking about oral/injected steroids or topical too? Granted, Toby only gets one drop in each eye every day, but he's been on this prescription since before I adopted him at 5 months of age. He will be 7 on 1/24.
> 
> I hope Jasper gets good results! :crossfing Please post when you find out.


It didn't mention whether it was topical or ingested, but like you, I believe if you are putting them into his eyes, they will be absorbed into the body.

I did see where it indicated that long term use of steroids can actually cause hypothyroidism. 

I know that I can't use steroids with Jasper unless it's a life or death sort of reason because he had demodex as a puppy and apparently if I give him steroids, it's possible he'll develop it again.


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