# Confused!!



## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

So being listed on the AKC marketplace doesn't mean anything about being a reputable breeder. Its just where people can post their AKC registered dogs. Many reputable, hobby breeders, don't use the Marketplace. 

I would say its awfully risky to buy a golden puppy whose owners don't get clearances. You have no idea what you are getting. It might seem like they are a straight shooter, or they might seem to care about their puppies, but if they really cared about breeding responsibly and ethically, they would get clearances. Not doing clearances because they are "painful" to dogs (I don't personally believe they are not bad) is like not giving your dog heart worm because you don't like the smell, and then being upset when they get heartworm. Films are done quickly. I wouldn't trust a puppy "guarantee" from someone like this, because most would only exchange a dog for a new puppy, which would be one of their uncleared puppies. 

MMFR lists their AKC pedigrees, but none of their dogs have clearances in OFA. I would pass on that personally. Hillside--I'm not sure, because their website (not the Hillside in Missouri), its just a breeder contact page with a couple of pictures of her dogs. You want to be able to have a dog's name and be able to look them up in OFA yourself to confirm that clearances have been done, are up to date, and that final clearances (not just prelims) are in. You want full clearances for generations--not just the sire and dam. 

It sounds like you know personally the detriments of having puppies from breeders of ill repute. There are LOTS of great breeders out there--If you search for california breeders on this forum you could probably find some. Or contact your local GRCA puppy referral center for your state. They can be very helpful in finding breeders who comply with the GRCA code of ethics. https://www.grca.org/find-a-golden/where-to-find-a-golden/grca-puppy-referral/


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## bethlehemgolden (Aug 2, 2014)

Depending on your location, you can try and go to your local golden retriever club's meeting. 
You could potentially meet many different breeders.
Another option is go to a local dog show. You will see the dogs and again talk to the breeders, as long as all the goldens aren't being shown by a handler. (This is what I did).


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

That's baloney- how much could it hurt to have a stethoscope against a chest for a few minutes? Or to have to lie on ones' back while a quick xray is done? My dogs never appear to be bothered by it. If someone's using that as an excuse not to do clearances on a breeding animal, I'd ask them how much it hurts the dog to have elbow dysplasia and have to carry a litter of puppies adding to the stress on the joint?

So- as was noted by Piper, MMFR dogs have no clearances on OFA. Not only that, Bernice weighs 85 pounds! OMG, that's SO BIG for a bitch! WAY out of standard.
And Wallace is only 68 pounds, so he's almost out of standard the other end of the spectrum. Not only that, and no clearances, but there are no clearances for 3 gen back from the puppies and they are spotty even 3 gen back. 
There are no titles for at least 3 generations behind either of them, and that tells me these are family pets who are having puppies for people- but nothing says they are correct or should be a part of the gene pool. Please don't go there . It's way risky. 

Of the Hillside dogs- here is a link to Justice, who I presume is their stud dog they use on all their girls- Pedigree: Erdoskerti Tyson His eyes are out of date but at least he has DNA and clearances done. That doesn't mean the girls have clearances, but I do think it would be worth an inquiry to get registered names so you or someone here can verify what they have. I'm crossing fingers for you that all is in place. 
Some of the discerning of a hobby breeder vs a byb or puppy mill kind of situation just takes understanding the language. If you research long enough you will be very good at it, and quick to know whether a dog or bitch actually has what it says on the breeder's site, or if it is carefully worded to imply things that are not true. You'll learn to look at siblings, offspring, parent's sibs and offspring so you can know what sort of risk the pedigree holds. It's not a promise nothing will happen but it does hedge your bet so you are not taking the biggest of risks.  You can always post a name here- just start a new thread for each so it's not confusing - and someone will help you. We do this not to trash breeders but instead to educate and to help folks get what they are paying for. We love this breed and are willing to invest time in the legwork for strangers just to encourage supporting breeders who do all the right stuff for the dogs we all love.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

You asked what the downside is if no certifications so I am going to attach an infographic that has that info. It is substantial. 

I would add that this puppy will hopefully be with your family for a decade or more. I would invest time, money and patience now to give yourself the best chance.


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## Shosh (Oct 21, 2016)

Thanks so much for looking up mmfr and hillside! 

I also appreciate site the advice to be patient. It is true that it is important to find the right fit and we are not in a hurry, it just get frustrating I feel like we are so out if the loop and not know where we can trust. 

I saw a couple postings about Premiere and Woodland GR and both are planning litters for 2017. Maybe one of these will be the right fit. The cost is much higher than some. Should I expect to pay $2000-2500 for a good pet (not show dog) in Los Angeles?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Yes, in California $2000-$2500 is likely the range that will get you a puppy from parents with full health certifications and some sort of competition achievements. 

Be careful though, price alone is not a good indicator of quality. There will be plenty of poor quality breeders in this price range and even higher that will not have full certifications. 

No matter who you buy from always make sure you do your due diligence and verify any claims especially health certifications. I will include two examples below. The top is a dog with full certs and the bottom has some missing. They are annotated to help. 

Pet and show quality puppies happen in the same litters. Several of the breeders I know charge the same price regardless of if the puppies going to a pet or a show home. All the puppies have the same pedigree and come from the same parent dogs with the same health testing. That is where the value is. Very few puppies in a normal litter will be destined for a competition career in addition to being a well loved pet. Puppies from even the highest accomplished dogs are in places in normal families with no other job than companion.


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## Shosh (Oct 21, 2016)

Thanks LJack, this was a helpful example of that to look for in the certifications. 

I was told that the parents have to go under anasthesia for the testing, is that true? 

I ask about price only because I see lots of posts that say thing like "for $1200 you should be expecting better lineage" or "I would never pay $2000", and these seem to be posts from the more experienced people here so I worried that I was looking in the wrong place. It is hard to convince my husband that $2000+ is what a dog costs when a rescue is so much more affordable and "saving a life"... we have had such a rough road with our rescue pups and goldens already have so many potential issues, I just need to have some level of security that everything possible was done to ensure that our pup will be healthy!


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

Shosh said:


> Thanks LJack, this was a helpful example of that to look for in the certifications.
> 
> I was told that the parents have to go under anasthesia for the testing, is that true?
> 
> I ask about price only because I see lots of posts that say thing like "for $1200 you should be expecting better lineage" or "I would never pay $2000", and these seem to be posts from the more experienced people here so I worried that I was looking in the wrong place. It is hard to convince my husband that $2000+ is what a dog costs when a rescue is so much more affordable and "saving a life"... we have had such a rough road with our rescue pups and goldens already have so many potential issues, I just need to have some level of security that everything possible was done to ensure that our pup will be healthy!


The OFA recommends chemical restraint to the point of muscle relaxation, but it is not required for hip certification. Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: FAQs. This doesn't necessarily mean full anesthetics. Other people here who breed can give more advice about what they do for their pups. Its a small price to pay for a healthy breeding program. 

So, prices of Goldens from reputable breeders varies dramatically sometimes on lineage, but *especially* varies based on geography. If you are living in a place where the cost of living is higher, and/or the population is more dense (i.e., higher demand), the price will be higher. For example, I live in Boston, and the price for a good golden is generally 2000-3000 (sometimes higher, but 2000-2500 is pretty much the average). 

Price does not necessarily reflect quality, however. There are a lot of people who peddle poorly bred goldens and charge more just because the demand is high for Golden retrievers in general. This is ESPECIALLY relevant if you are looking for an English-type golden retriever (I noticed that one of the breeders you asked about breeds English goldens). Many breeders of ill repute will charge more for a lower quality product, by advertising that their coat color is "rare" or their temperament is inherently better or they are healthier than American goldens (none of which is true). Or in American Goldens, people will say a dog is coming from "Champion bloodlines" or something to that effect, to make you believe you are getting a better product, when in fact you may not be. Marketing ploys can be deceptive. Health certifications and being proven in the ring (obedience, agility, conformation) tends not to be. If you are looking for an English golden, this website is helpful English Goldens in North America - Breeders. If you are looking for an American Golden, go to the Golden Retriever Club of America's website and ask for one of the puppy referral contacts from your local chapter to reach out to you.


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## Shosh (Oct 21, 2016)

Thanks for that. We are of course not judging quality by price. Just was comparing the prices we were seeing locally in LA) to comments on the board. 

I did contact our local GRC but no luck. The one breeder that has pups was only interested in families that will feed raw. With 2 kids in the house, I just wasn't 100% comfortable with the idea of potential increased interaction with bacteria from raw meat. 

Now I think I just need to be patient and wait for a litter from one of the other breeders. 

We are interested actually in a darker golden American-style I guess you would say...but the English breeder was explaining that the introduction of those lines may reduce cancer risk so she uses both heritages. True, in your experience?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Shosh said:


> I was told that the parents have to go under anasthesia for the testing, is that true?


In a word, no. 
Mine never have and I do preliminaries at 12 months and certifications at 24-28 months. 

Some breeders prefer chemical restraint but I am more minimalist in the application of drugs. 

As far as pricing yes, if you want to buy from a reputable breeder in CA you will what to talk with youe husband as there is some sticker shock. 

Not that dogs are cars, but it is an area where most consumers have experience and understanding. If you were looking to buy a car and settled on a Honda Civic you know that you should be extremely suspicious of some one advertising a 2015 model for $10,000. We know that brand new they are starting around $20,000. So half price is not seen as a deal but as what is wrong with it. A $10,000 price tag on a used Civic that is several years old makes sense but we know it also comes with wear and tear. 

It really is about what you are getting for your money and what is the priority for your family.

If low initial cost is the number 1 priority I always recommend adopting from a rescue. 

There are other options to be sure and though I do not recommend them, here is what IMHO would be appropriate pricing for the value offered in CA. 

Might be a Golden - $100-400 - unregistered puppies for sale claimed to be Goldens. Without papers there is no guarantee. You might end up with a dog who does not have Golden Retriever temperament or look. 

Registered Golden - $300-700 - At least there are papers. Sadly though they are not any guarantee of quality. Dogs may not have reliable Golden traits because some breeders (current and in the past pedigree) made their decision to breed base solely on the fact they had a boy dog and a girl dog. 

Some Testing - $600-$1200- This is probably the scariest place to be. Sometimes these are well meaning people who have just not educated themselves enough. Perhaps they remember hips have been a problem in the breed for a while or they go to a generic education site and read about it. So, they tested hips but did not read enough to know the other debilitating or deadly issues to test for. The other type you see in this group is those who know they should and don't or they do test but hide failed tests and just breed knowing they are passing these issues on. 

Testing but no competition- $1000-1500 - All testing in place but they do not compete. Testing back in the pedigree is likely missing or spotty. No titles on either parent. They tend to not have a real goal in mind and breedings are usually done with convenience and/or cost as the primary concern. 

Testing and low quality titles - $1500-$1800 - Again all testing in place. Testing should be there in previous generations to command the $1800 price tag. The dogs actually leave their yards and do something other than make puppies. The titles are not impressive like CGC, CGCA, Show Champions in the US version of International Champion and UKC, perhaps entry level obedience titles in Rally or Beginer Novice (BN). Breeding decisions are likely based on convenience and/or cost. 

Testing and AKC titles - $1800-2500 - All testing in place and should be for generations. AKC titles like AKC Champion or Grand Champion, higher level obedience title starting at CDX and up, hunt of field titles like Senior Hunter. These dogs have proven to be exceptional representatives of the breed in a particular area. Even better if the dogs have titles in more than one area. Breeding decisions based on input received from competition results, other experts and looking at what this dog needs improved. Best matches are selected regardless or distance and cost. 

To me these price versus value I would be getting makes sense. I would not want to pay top dollar for very little in value nor would I feel like I am getting a smoking deal buying a dog with no testing history when I know what I am not getting.

Championships are hard to decipher when your new so here is an infographic that might help.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Shosh said:


> English breeder was explaining that the introduction of those lines may reduce cancer risk so she uses both heritages. True, in your experience?


I have American lines but literally just got back from Italy this month with my new little girl puppy, I feel I can speak to this with a big, fat *no. *

There is of course something to be said for genetic diversity which is why my goal is to blend as both American and European lines are bottlenecked on a few dogs. I hope to positively impact health in general but I have many friends overseas and they loose dogs to cancer just like we do. They tend to be more private with the loss of a dog and may not disclose how the death happened. The US culture is different we are just more open about it in general.

I personally would run from any breeders saying their dogs have less cancer (unless they show me necropsy reports on all the dogs they have produced over a 30 year period) or no cancer.

If it sound too good to be true, it is. And since we have not been able to eliminate cancer in humans, I have little patience for breeders who pray on cancer fears or heartbreak to make a sale.


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

Shosh said:


> Thanks for that. We are of course not judging quality by price. Just was comparing the prices we were seeing locally in LA) to comments on the board.
> 
> I did contact our local GRC but no luck. The one breeder that has pups was only interested in families that will feed raw. With 2 kids in the house, I just wasn't 100% comfortable with the idea of potential increased interaction with bacteria from raw meat.
> 
> ...


No, I personally believe Goldens across the pond and here in the states have the same cancer risk. I think LJack has great insight in his comments above. 

European/English goldens are only sightly different from American Goldens. The quick and dirty is that the English GR breed standard is more inclusive, and allows for very light (and very dark) shades of golden (ranging from what many call cream to an almost mahogany red/gold). They tend to be a hair shorter, with a bulkier head and with more well developed forequarters. The American breed standard narrowed to include more traditional "shades of gold" so you can think about it more like they narrowed the spectrum a little bit in colors of the Golden rainbow. They traditionally are a bit lighter, a hair taller, with more developed hindquarters. But its the same breed. They are all Golden Retrievers, and should have an ideal "GR temperament." 

Diversity in a breeding program is helpful in that you are widening the pool, therefore reducing the risk of inheritable disease, such as hip dysplasia, which is worsened by having such a closely related gene pool. An overwhelming majority of Goldens, and canines in general, end up with cancer--similar to humans. 

I would avoid a breeder who promises a dog with a lower than average cancer risk, perfect temperament, healthier dog with lower risk of hip dysplasia, or rarity in coat color solely on the basis of geographic heritage. 

There's nothing wrong with having an ideal coat type (whether you are a fan of light golden, very light golden, classic "golden," or dark golden). I am a fan of dark goldens myself, but after having two and losing my last girl, my "heart" dog at a very early age, sort of rebelled in the opposite direction. You just may need to hunt a little more to find exactly what you are looking for.

Often, reputable breeders don't churn out the amount of puppies with the same frequency that a commercial-type breeder (or worse, a puppy mill) will. So its not uncommon for them to only have very few litters a year, and waiting lists. If you want a dog earlier rather than later, you might have to expand your search area. But a good golden is worth the wait!


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## TexasGold (Aug 29, 2016)

I am also trying to learn how to interpret these clearances. Are the Eye clearances the only ones that are required yearly? How often should we look for the heart, hips and elbow clearances to be done?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

brinkleysmom1958 said:


> I am also trying to learn how to interpret these clearances. Are the Eye clearances the only ones that are required yearly? How often should we look for the heart, hips and elbow clearances to be done?


Here is the quick answer for the US. 

Heart by a Cardiologist just once at or after 12 months. 

Hip by X-ray evaluation once at or after 24 months by OFA (most common) or PennHIP. 

Elbow by X-ray evaluation once at or after 24 months by OFA.

Eyes must be done annually. 

This infographic might help.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Piper_the_goldenpuppy said:


> I think LJack has great insight in his comments above.


:roflmao:
This made me laugh. The L in LJack is Laura.


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

LJack said:


> :roflmao:
> This made me laugh. The L in LJack is Laura.


:surprise: Facepalm. I'm so sorry. I should have known based by the picture underneath your name. And underneath all your posts (sometimes its hard to know if the person showing their dog is their owner!). Haha. I'm so sorry! My face is beet red behind this computer screen. I'm going to crawl into my keyboard and die now. 

You have a great name btw! My name is Laura too! 0


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Piper_the_goldenpuppy said:


> You have a great name btw! My name is Laura too! 0


That is why I was cracking up.:grin2: Don't be embarrassed, I thought it was funny. And you are right there are not a lot of owner handlers but I am and that is me in both pictures. :wavey:


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

YAY YAY YAY for owner handlers


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## Shosh (Oct 21, 2016)

Laura your insight on cost and value is well invaluable. That was exactly what I needed to understand the pricing structure! 

Also super helpful to understand the tests and championships, it's all making things a lot clearer. 

Im sure I'll continue to have questions through the process but feel like I'm starting to know what to look for. You guys are giving us newer to the scene such a gift!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Shosh said:


> Laura your insight on cost and value is well invaluable. That was exactly what I needed to understand the pricing structure!
> 
> Also super helpful to understand the tests and championships, it's all making things a lot clearer.
> 
> Im sure I'll continue to have questions through the process but feel like I'm starting to know what to look for. You guys are giving us newer to the scene such a gift!


Laura LJACK has a visual on the various CH's too- and what it takes to earn one so you can compare the one day INT CH to the likely many months AKC CH.
Pricing often has nothing to do with it if one is a do-nothing breeder, they charge the same amount for puppies that the breeder who is out there busting it charges. So you have to be discerning about what it is you are told to justify the cost. If someone says to me that they are pouring all their puppy money back into showing the dogs they own, that holds a lot more value than the people who pay their mortgage with the puppy money.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Prism Goldens said:


> Pricing often has nothing to do with it if one is a do-nothing breeder, they charge the same amount for puppies that the breeder who is out there busting it charges. So you have to be discerning about what it is you are told to justify the cost.


Too true. The pricing ranges I gave were what I feel the value offered should be priced. In reality I have seen even people with only AKC registration as a selling point ask the same or even more than a breeder with that plus full health testing and high quality dogs with major accomplishments. 

Decide with your family what is important to you and find a rescue or breeder that matches those priorities.

What is important to me is that every buyer has the ability to make their best decision and get a fair value for the money paid. 

It always makes me cringe when people have obviously been taken advantage of.

I have had people come to me bragging about how much they paid for their puppy from these amazingly healthy and spectacular Champion parents. I know the local breeders and these puppies have come from spotty health teasting and parents that can only 'win' if they are the only dog or their awards are non-competitive in nature. So, it is very sad to know what these people are telling me is a direct result of the half-truths and/or lies their breeder fed them. It is even sadder when the price they paid is the same or more than what they could have paid to actually get what they were mislead to believe they got. 

Knowledge and the ability to research is so important when looking at finding a good breeder. It is shocking how many breeders try to mislead, misinform or flat lie to puppy buyers to make themselves seem like a good breeder. Regardless of who you are buying from always verify claims, especially health testing.


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## Shosh (Oct 21, 2016)

I totally get that but it helps to have some frame of references so we know what to expect.


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