# How much protein is too much protein?



## GoldenJoyx'stwo

Okay, my two have been on Canidae for 5 years now. I tried switching to a fish formula but I have some concerns about something that is used to preserve the fish that is imported in most brands. What I've noticed with the new fish formula is Shadow is doing less paw chewing. Tucker is usually fine with whatever I feed him, but I have to count his calories carefully.

Orijen is the only food that uses what they claim to be "fresh" fish and they "seem" to guarantee that they do not use the preservative I'm concerned about. What I found is that the protein level is double what my boys have been eating. It's 44% protein and 18% fat. I'm thinking this may cause hersey squirts . I'm also thinking this protein might be too much? 

How do you all feel about the protein level? I seem to remember dogs who work really, really hard do better on 30/20? My dogs get exercise, but not that much. 

SC, you out there?


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## jnmarr

Hi Kim... Are you as tired of thinking about the food ingredients as I am??? I just looked this up on the Canidae site.. hope it helps about the preservitive ethoxyquin. I am anxious to see what the experts say aabout the protein amounts. 



http://www.canidae.com/ingredients/thefinest.html


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## nicholaskong

I have a GSD puppy on Orijen Puppy and her pee smell so bad.I consult vet he told me is due to high protein will cause their pee to smell.And recently I bought a golden puppy initially she's on breeder's food.After I switch to Orijen puppy and her pee starts to smell as bad as my GSD.I think maybe is the protein problem.Now I'm switching my golden food to Artemis Fresh Mix (27% protein) and see how.But its quite costly and not easily available.I don't think can see the result cos its only a 1.8kg pack.My puppy will finish in jus 1 or 2 weeks.So I'm thinking after finishing the small pack will be going to Innova puppy (26% protein) or mayb other brand


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I think I'll see if they have the fish formula available at the feed store when I go the next time. It does still have double the protein. Tucker may blow up like a balloon on almost 500 calories per cup though. He may have to stay on the Plantinum with a little fish thrown in as a treat. 

My head hurts...


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## utcarsons

Kimm, I cant really answer your question about the protein, but I did want to mention Wellness Core Ocean. I dont know if they guarantee the fish free of that chemical which I cant remember how to spell as I havent looked into it thoroughly enough yet, just thought it might be a little bit lower protein option. Good luck!

Jodie


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## daddysgirl

Kimm, Roxy has been on Orijen for over a year and is doing great on it. we switched her over from Solid Gold and she never had the squirts. when we changed vets, the new vet asked what brand of food we feed Roxy, i told him Orijen and he told us "thats great food" it was so nice to hear that a vet actually knew about food other than science diet. Denise


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## Goldilocks

utcarsons said:


> Kimm, I cant really answer your question about the protein, but I did want to mention Wellness Core Ocean. I dont know if they guarantee the fish free of that chemical which I cant remember how to spell as I havent looked into it thoroughly enough yet, just thought it might be a little bit lower protein option. Good luck!
> 
> Jodie


I was also going to suggest Wellness Core Ocean. Wellness does guarantee their fish meals to be Ethoxyquin free and this I assume is the ingredient you are concerned about. Because the Wellness Large Breed has fish meal in it, I emailed Wellness to specifically ask if their fish meal contained "E". I wanted to know not whether they themselves add it, but do they ensure their suppliers do not add "E" to the fish meal. They assured me that each shipment is tested and certified to be Ethoxyquin free and that they pay extra for this. I went through the same thing with Fromm and they guarantee their supply of fish meals to be Ethoxyquin free as well. Salmon al La Veg was the food I was asking about specifically. Ethoxyquin and fish meals is a concern of mine as well. I read that in the USA the Coast Guard states that Ethoxyquin is to be added to fish meals. Canada (where I live and where Orijen is made) does not have that rule. Champion Pet Foods who make Orijen have just recently come out with a new line of grain free foods with a much lower level of protein. There is a fish based one in the line up called "Pacifica". They also have Acana foods that contain grain. Here's the link to their website. http://www.championpetfoods.com/ They guarantee their foods and fish meals to be free of Ethoxyquin.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

Anyone out there with an opinion on how much protein is TOO much protein? Especially for dogs that are not high performance?

I'm thinking Wellness Core may do the trick. I have to decide soon.


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## Charlie06

I was worried about the amount of protein in EVO, Charlie loves the red meat formula so I decided to rotate Core(34%) with the EVO. I use up a big bag of Core then switch to a big bag of EVO.


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## JDandBigAm

According to Dr. Nicholas Dodman, a high protein/high performance food is 32%. A medium-protein diet is 25% and low-protein is 17%. He also states that a puppy less than a year old must have a 28% protein diet to meet their needs.


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## Ljilly28

All I have is questions and no answers, except that my dogs glowed on Canidae ALS before the formula change and I miss it. Should I switch my three from the new Canidae ALS? Eagle Pack Holistic Chicken & Rice is what I am considering.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Ljilly28 said:


> All I have is questions and no answers, except that my dogs glowed on Canidae ALS before the formula change and I miss it. Should I switch my three from the new Canidae ALS? Eagle Pack Holistic Chicken & Rice is what I am considering.


We've had great success with the Eagle Pack Holistic Line. I've used both the Duck and Chicken with Cody. He is my AIHA boy who's had all sorts of immune complications and this food has been wonderful for him.... his coat and skin are in great shape and he loves his food. The great dane lady certainly advocates the Eagle Pack line ( www.greatdanelady.com)


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## utcarsons

Well, I do think its difficult to give exact numbers. I will include a link to an article I just read about this below, but basically it says... it depends. :doh: Depends on the quality of the protein, the dog, the rest of the diet, etc. 

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth

I have found this website a bit more moderate when it comes to rating foods etc. See what you think.

Jodie


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

utcarsons said:


> Well, I do think its difficult to give exact numbers. I will include a link to an article I just read about this below, but basically it says... it depends. :doh: Depends on the quality of the protein, the dog, the rest of the diet, etc.
> 
> http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth
> 
> I have found this website a bit more moderate when it comes to rating foods etc. See what you think.
> 
> Jodie


Thank you Jodie! I've been on this web site before. I think back in the old days Swampcollie told me that high performance dogs needed 30/20 due to their level of activity? Some of these foods seem to be 44% protein. I'm so confused. I wish the scientists in our department could answer questions on dog nutrition, but NOOOooo! LOL


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

utcarsons said:


> Well, I do think its difficult to give exact numbers. I will include a link to an article I just read about this below, but basically it says... it depends. :doh: Depends on the quality of the protein, the dog, the rest of the diet, etc.
> 
> http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth
> 
> I have found this website a bit more moderate when it comes to rating foods etc. See what you think.
> 
> Jodie


I love that site. There is a ton of info there about learning how to discern quality in foods..... so you can make your own decisions as to what best suits your pack.


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## utcarsons

Kimm, I am kind of going through this with you! We have a new addition in the house, an aussie girl, and I am trying to get her set up on a good diet and originally put her on Eagle Pack Duck and Oatmeal, but have to say she has become a bit itchy on it (I swear I think these dogs are allergic to me!), so I am planning to switch her to Wellness Core Original and see how she does. I am planning on adding some raw as well. Going to get the Pitcairn book later today or maybe add some Honest Kitchen topper. 

My foster did SO well on CORE. We switched her to California Natural Herring for allergy testing. We finally just did the blood test, so I am really hoping to get her back on it as well once those results get it...we'll see.

Wellness very generously donates food to the rescue I foster for (they have a plant near here), so I like to support them for that reason as well. The frustrating thing is that we can do all this research and finally pick something, and then they turn their noses up at it... :doh: 

Keep me posted what you end up doing...

Jodie


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I'm going to the feed store on Saturday. I "think" I'm going to try Wellness (their fish formula). I could try one of the EVO formulas:uhoh:, but the protein level is so much higher than what they've been eating. Wellness is around the same. I may walk out with two bags of Canidae again! My two will eat anything. Heck, Tucker's nickname is Potty Mouth!

Shadow has been allergy tested, so I have a list of foods that he needs to stay away from. Tucker is more about calories per cup. I'd love to get them both on the same food. I found one formula from Merrick they could both eat, but it's 66.00 for a 30 bag!!!




utcarsons said:


> Wellness very generously donates food to the rescue I foster for (they have a plant near here), so I like to support them for that reason as well. The frustrating thing is that we can do all this research and finally pick something, and then they turn their noses up at it... :doh:
> 
> Keep me posted what you end up doing...
> 
> Jodie


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## utcarsons

Kimm said:


> Thank you Jodie! I've been on this web site before. I think back in the old days Swampcollie told me that high performance dogs needed 30/20 due to their level of activity? Some of these foods seem to be 44% protein. I'm so confused. I wish the scientists in our department could answer questions on dog nutrition, but NOOOooo! LOL


Ya know. I think that is another reason I like the core, it is one of the more moderate protein % for grain-free foods, but in all truthfullness, I suppose its not a huge difference especially when you consider that those are just minimums, not exact numbers on the label.

Jodie


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

utcarsons said:


> I suppose its not a huge difference especially when you consider that those are just minimums, not exact numbers on the label.
> 
> Jodie


:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh: LOL! I'm just going to pick something off the shelf and try it! :uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:


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## utcarsons

Kimm said:


> I may walk out with two bags of Canidae again!


That SO sounds like me! HAHA! I went to get my foster another small bag of food yesterday and was determined to get a new bag for my aussie... Went to two different dog shops and looked at every food you can imagine (honestly) and still came home with just the little tiny bag for my foster until her test comes back... :


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## hotel4dogs

Figuring the protein based on the percentage in the food is the wrong approach. You need to figure how many grams of protein your dog is getting per day, not look at the percentage that is in the food. 
A dog needs 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight per day (Ohio State Univ. College of Vet. Med., Nutrition Studies). 
If your dog weighs 70 pounds and gets 350 grams of food in a day, assuming the protein is about 75% digestible (they range from about 70%-80%, Department of Biochemistry, Physiology and Nutrition, Norwegian School of Veterinary Science, N-0033 Oslo, Norway and Department of Basic Sciences and Aquatic Medicine, Agricultural University of Norway, N-1432 Ås, Norway) and the food contains 28% protein, your dog is getting about 74 grams of protein in a day, which is quite adequate for their requirements. In contrast, the same dog getting 250 grams of a 33% protein food (often you feed less of the high protein foods due to the calorie density) is getting about 62 grams of protein in a day, and is protein deficient.
Yet another way in which the dog food industry uses marketing to convince people that their food is "better" without anyone realizing the science behind the hype.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

Wow! Thank you. I'll go do the math.

I've got to do this one step at a time...1 cup =8 oz = 225 grams. Oh how I love math...LOL


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Kimm said:


> Wow! Thank you. I'll go do the math.


 
Let us know what your math tells you.... sounds very logical but right now it just makes my head hurt !!:doh::doh:


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Let us know what your math tells you.... sounds very logical but right now it just makes my head hurt !!:doh::doh:


I'll get it. It takes me longer than some, but I'll get it! If this is like when I figured out how many calories Tucker needed to maintain a certain weight, it will really help! The math was easier with that though. You can't really mess up with 10 calories per pound.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

First issue I'm having is converting cups to grams, since you are converting a volume to a weight. From all I see googling, 1 cup of various foods have differing gram amount. The standard they mention is 230 g = 1 cup, but it varied a tremendous amount. Anyone have any ideas????


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

LOL, I showed it to DH and he gave me the wrong formula! It didn't add up. I'll give it to one of our grad students.  Common sense tells me that both of mine are getting enough protein...I hope:uhoh:. I'll go sleep on it!!!

I have a food scale, so I can weigh mine.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Ok here is my initial conversion.. I took Cody, who weighs 58 lbs and gets 1 1/2 cups of EP Hol Duck. I'm using the standard of 230 g= 1 cup ( I'm not at all sure that is a correct value). SO....1 1/2 cups food = 345 grams, multiplied by 75% digestibility= 258.75, multiplied by 23% ( the amount of protein in the EP Duck) = 59.5 Pretty darn close. I want to look further into the digestibility of this food ( I know that great dane lady had something on her site) and would like some input about how dog food would be converted to grams. However, it does make me think that this would def. put the high protein foods WAY over the limit. (Cody would never get them anyway for other health issues)


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

I just weighed Cody's 1 1/2 cups of the Eagle Pack and it was 175 g ..... anyone else doing any weighing. When I use that in the equation, it shows that all of mine are on the appropraite amount and protein level. Cody ( 58 lb springer) is getting 1 1/2 c of the 23% Eagle Pack Hol Duck; the golden girls are getting 2 c of the Innova Large Breed Adult ( 26.4 % protein) which comes out to 69.3 grams..... and they are within 5 lbs of that. I'm feeling good about their diet right now.


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## Nicci831

I have my 2 boys on Wellness Core Ocean. They have been on it for about 4 months now with no problems. Of course with any kind of fish formula it doesn't smell wonderfully but I like the fact that fish is a great source of protein, and the fiber is high too.


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## T&T

*ONCE YOU FINISH CALCULATING THE PROTEIN ... *
*MAKE SURE YOU SEND A SAMPLE OF THE FOOD TO THE LAB ... *

*" A pet food manufacturer made a mock product that had a guaranteed analysis of 10% protein, 6.5% fat, 2.4% fiber, and 68% moisture, similar to what you see on many canned pet food labels. The only problem, was that the ingredients were old leather work boots, used motor oil, crushed coal, and water! "*

*http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1661&articleid=668*


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## Cam's Mom

Kim, I wouldn't have a problem with the protein or fat,. It's the total calories you give them that's critical. I give my guys food that's around 30 % protein, BUT, I add ground meat, fish or cottage cheese to it. They all do well, and the old guys are definitely not high energy or working any longer.

Carbs are not natural foods for dogs. 

If you want lower protein what about this one, Natural balance, fish and sweet potato. I have tried it in the past, and the dogs liked it. You can get it at Petco.

http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/SPFish.html


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## hotel4dogs

there was a big independent study done in Europe (I cited the reference) that showed the digestibility of, specifically, protein in 12 different dog foods ranging from the highest quality to store brands. They still came up close to 70% in the lowest quality ones.


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## Pointgold

Cam's Mom said:


> Carbs are not natural foods for dogs.


This is not an entirely accurate statement. Carbohydrates are utilized differently by dogs than by humans, and it depends on the source. 

One good article explaining this is:

http://home.att.net/~wdcusick/fat.html


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

T&T said:


> *ONCE YOU FINISH CALCULATING THE PROTEIN ... *
> *MAKE SURE YOU SEND A SAMPLE OF THE FOOD TO THE LAB ... *
> 
> *" A pet food manufacturer made a mock product that had a guaranteed analysis of 10% protein, 6.5% fat, 2.4% fiber, and 68% moisture, similar to what you see on many canned pet food labels. The only problem, was that the ingredients were old leather work boots, used motor oil, crushed coal, and water! "*
> 
> *http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1661&articleid=668http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1661&articleid=668*http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1661&articleid=668


I hear ya! I'll be comfortable knowing at least I tried. I threw myself in bed last night. Never did do the math. I'll figure it out later.


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## utcarsons

Some of the dog food websites list how many grams a cup is in their feeding guidelines...

Eagle Pack does...
http://www.eaglepack.com/Pages/FG_HSDog.html#HSDuckDog

Kimm,
From these wellness core ocean numbers
*Calories Analysis on an as fed basis*
*Per kilogram *3,600 kcal *Per cup ME *430 cal 

I estimate 120 g (weight) = (1 volume) cup of food.

Dont know if that helps. I can figure more numbers later, but gotta get to work now.

Jodie


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## utcarsons

OK, anything to avoid work...

Wellness Ocean Core

120 g = 1 cup

70 lb dog on wellness core ocean = about 3 cups = 360 g per day
360 g x 34% protein = 122.4 g protein x 75% digestable (avg) = 
91.8 g protein.

Feel free to check my logic/math here....

Jodie


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

T&T said:


> *ONCE YOU FINISH CALCULATING THE PROTEIN ... *
> *MAKE SURE YOU SEND A SAMPLE OF THE FOOD TO THE LAB ... *
> 
> *" A pet food manufacturer made a mock product that had a guaranteed analysis of 10% protein, 6.5% fat, 2.4% fiber, and 68% moisture, similar to what you see on many canned pet food labels. The only problem, was that the ingredients were old leather work boots, used motor oil, crushed coal, and water! "*
> 
> *http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1661&articleid=668http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1661&articleid=668*http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1661&articleid=668


T&T......... shame on you !: You know we're only talking quality food here !!! Seriously, it is an interesting new way to look at the percent of protein issue. I vacilate on how I feel about it for the goldens.... they've been on the higher protein foods and done well (EVO red meat, Core Red. Fat) but then I worry about the long term effects. So maybe the rotation idea like I'm doing now is the compromising answer. Right now they're on the Innova Large Breed with a smattering of the Honest Kitchen and tripe. Cody is stable on the Eagle Pack Holistic Duck and doing GREAT, so that's where he's staying.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

utcarsons said:


> OK, anything to avoid work...
> 
> Wellness Ocean Core
> 
> 120 g = 1 cup
> 
> 70 lb dog on wellness core ocean = about 3 cups = 360 g per day
> 360 g x 34% protein = 122.4 g protein x 75% digestable (avg) =
> 91.8 g protein.
> 
> Feel free to check my logic/math here....
> 
> Jodie


Wow, that seems low 120 g = 1 cup, but you are probably right. Tucker only gets 2 cups per day. I have to check the super5mix (whitefish) formula. I'm at work and having to think hard here...LOL


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

utcarsons said:


> OK, anything to avoid work...
> 
> Wellness Ocean Core
> 
> 120 g = 1 cup
> 
> 70 lb dog on wellness core ocean = about 3 cups = 360 g per day
> 360 g x 34% protein = 122.4 g protein x 75% digestable (avg) =
> 91.8 g protein.
> 
> Feel free to check my logic/math here....
> 
> Jodie


From what was stated earlier, at 1 gram per pound, that's way too much protein for a 70 lb dog ( should be 70 grams) !!:uhoh::uhoh::doh: Seems like this formula doesn't take into consideration the individuality of the dogs...... just as in calorie consumption, wouldn't you imagine that protein requirements are variable too ?????? AAAAHHHH the proverbial monkey wrench !!!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

There is 115 grams of food in (1) 8 oz. cup for our Wellness Whitefish and Sweet Potato.

Wellness is so good at getting back to a person. I called because I didn't have a scale available. They didn't have an answer, but replied in a very short period of time.

I may be in trouble...

At 330 grams (115 per cup) with 22% protein and a 73 pound dog at 75% digestiblity something doesn't look right. Tucker doesn't get enough, but Shadow does. Good thing I've been giving him more!!!


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## T&T

T&T said:


> *" A pet food manufacturer made a mock product that had a guaranteed analysis of 10% protein, 6.5% fat, 2.4% fiber, and 68% moisture, similar to what you see on many canned pet food labels. The only problem, was that the ingredients were old leather work boots, used motor oil, crushed coal, and water! "*
> *http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1661&articleid=668*


 
SO IF YOUR DOGS ARE AFTER YOUR BOOTS / SHOES / SOCKS ETC ...
IT COULD BE A SIGN THAT THEY ARE LACKING PROTEIN/FAT/FIBER ETC ...


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

T&T said:


> SO IF YOUR DOGS ARE AFTER YOUR BOOTS / SHOES / SOCKS ETC ...
> IT COULD BE A SIGN THAT THEY ARE LACKING PROTEIN/FAT/FIBER ETC ...


I'm wondering if this is why Tucker eats Shadow's poop! He's not getting enough protein. :doh:


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## hotel4dogs

if you look on the dog food bags, you will often see that the "suggest amount to feed" is higher than what most of us can feed our goldens without them getting really fat. I asked Royal Canin about it, and they said the recommended amount on the bag is normally based on getting adequate protein in the diet!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

hotel4dogs said:


> if you look on the dog food bags, you will often see that the "suggest amount to feed" is higher than what most of us can feed our goldens without them getting really fat. I asked Royal Canin about it, and they said the recommended amount on the bag is normally based on getting adequate protein in the diet!


I may have to find something new for Tucker. He can't consume very many calories. He came to us nearly 20 pounds overweight. I'm going to see how he does with the extra food I'm giving him, which should provide him with enough protein, but if he gains weight, I'm in deep do...


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## CrazyZane

hotel4dogs said:


> Figuring the protein based on the percentage in the food is the wrong approach. You need to figure how many grams of protein your dog is getting per day, not look at the percentage that is in the food.
> A dog needs 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight per day (Ohio State Univ. College of Vet. Med., Nutrition Studies).
> If your dog weighs 70 pounds and gets 350 grams of food in a day, assuming the protein is about 75% digestible (they range from about 70%-80%, Department of Biochemistry, Physiology and Nutrition, Norwegian School of Veterinary Science, N-0033 Oslo, Norway and Department of Basic Sciences and Aquatic Medicine, Agricultural University of Norway, N-1432 Ås, Norway) and the food contains 28% protein, your dog is getting about 74 grams of protein in a day, which is quite adequate for their requirements. In contrast, the same dog getting 250 grams of a 33% protein food (often you feed less of the high protein foods due to the calorie density) is getting about 62 grams of protein in a day, and is protein deficient.
> Yet another way in which the dog food industry uses marketing to convince people that their food is "better" without anyone realizing the science behind the hype.



I'm assuming the info above is for adult dogs and not puppies? 

My puppy weighed 16lbs. a few days ago. If going by the formula above my guy is getting 52.45g of protein a day. So to get 1g of protein per pound he would need a food with a protein content of a little less than 9%?

*TOTW High Prairie Puppy / 28% Protein*
1 cup of TOTW High Prairie Puppy = 111g
Feeding = 3/4C ~ 3x a day = 2.25C x 111g = 249.75g per day



-249.75g x 28% protein = 69.93g protein x 75% digestible = 52.45g protein
-249.75g x 9% protein = 22.48g protein x 75% digestible = 16.89g protein


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