# Starr Goldens - Pup review



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think you made your personal decision to go with that breeder regardless of any issues that have been brought up about the kennel and now it's on to the real business of raising your puppy and surviving that first year. 

I made a similar iffy choice when I got my _very golden_ (we were hoping more for a reddish gold guy, but that may yet happen since goldens coats darken over the years) golden retriever. I don't regret it but don't necessarily advertise for the kennel because I do think there are better and more responsible breeders here in Michigan. 

If you are a newbie at this or it's been a while since your last puppy, I think there are a lot of people who can be helpful with whatever issues and questions that come up. The first two years are the toughest. Good luck.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am always curious about people who make good connections across the pond. Are the puppy's parents from England or did you fly to London and back with the pup? I imported a puppy from Canada, and it was challenging in terms of paperwork & two kennel clubs. What was the paperwork like getting an English puppy through customs?


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Jill, I believe they're referencing this breeder in Ohio. http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...221-english-golden-breeder-starr-goldens.html


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## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

English cream :uhoh::uhoh: .... is there such a beast??????


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

In England, and it goes in your coffee!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Gwen said:


> English cream :uhoh::uhoh: .... is there such a beast??????




























<- Creme Anglaise 

? 

(I'm teasing)


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## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

When someone says "English cream" to me, it would IMMEDIATELY put up the red flags. Oh well, it takes all kinds!


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## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

I don't care about the previous controversy on this... I adopt rescues because I love goldens no matter where they came from and even top bred goldens (like my Angelina) end up in rescues, so there!

What I am highly disappointed about is you did not post any pictures!!! 

Can we have some pictures please??? :

And I am so happy your golden is doing well and a big part of your family!


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I am so glad you found a puppy that fits your lifestyle. Here's hoping your pup has a long and healthy life. Would love to see pictures.

I also hope you were able to get copies of all clearances for your pups parents and verify that all five generations have/had them completed as well (hips, elbows, CERF, heart). 

As we all learn in time, cream is not a recognized color with the AKC. And if your dog is indeed from across the pond, then yes, it is English. If not, it is an _English_ _type/style_, which do tend to be lighter in color, though not cream. Good luck with your pup, and again, please post pictures.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

There is no such thing as English Creams. There are Goldens from England but this does not make them a special breed. There are very few breeders that actually have picked out their pup in England. A large headed blond dog is not an English Cream. It is just not right to market it more then what they are, a light colored golden retriever. I feel bad for those who can reason in their head that this right and would spend more. I also think those who take advantage of the buyer are no more then con-artist


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## gfidk (Aug 2, 2011)

I have quickly realized the passion and (strong) opinions which this forum's membership provides. I can also see the value and wealth of experience one can access by educated members towards this beautiful breed. What I do NOT care for are those who feel it important to make anyone wishing to purchase a "white" golden feel slighted for doing so. And posting a photo of a can of coffee creamer only suggests an insult to anyone wanting this specific-colored pup if they, God forbid, describe the color as I had done. Mine is pure white, not a beige or cream color and this will not change with age (as I'd been introduced to both parents). Like it or not, this is how they seem to be growingly recognized (as we had learned when investigating via the Net).

Using the term "English Cream" was clearly a mistake on my part and I regret using it since it allowed subsequent postings to completely sidetrack my REASON for posting. Personally, I could care less what they are officially called with AKC registrations. I wanted simply, to provide my (positive) experience with this particular breeder - it was not to either promote his business nor try to convince others to purchase a pup from him. 

I will consider this my last post to this forum since a few (not all) have left me regretting my initial contribution and concluding it was of little value anyway based on the subsequent unsolicited "opinions"…....


Life is too short not to enjoy the decisions we make (financial or otherwise) and I will not entertain any efforts to make me feel I made a poor decision with my purchase (albeit intentional or by implication). I do thank those who responded with respect and encouragement and wish you and your pets continued happiness.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I never waiver from my recommendation that any pup you buy should have parents with OFA hip and elbow clearance at 24 months. The heart clearance is done from at least 12 months by a cardiologist. And the eyes are done annually, by an ophthalmologist... if you have all of that plus titles in the parents and the requisite 5 plus generations of clearances, I say go for it.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

There is a lot of passion on this forum..but I feel you are a tad defensive.... I have purchased dogs and kept dogs I have bred. I can always learn from someone else with experience....


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I'm not trying to be offensive, but I guess I don't understand how people can assert that they own a golden retriever when the dog is... white. Like, the name "golden retriever" in itself implies that the dog is SOME shade of gold. A white dog is... well, a white retriever. I'm NOT saying that white retrievers aren't beautiful, but in my mind, they are not golden retrievers.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@Kim - not just white. Pure white.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I do agree that some posts were more mocking than is really helpful here.

At the same time, you have to understand how frustrating it is for members who work so hard to make sure that people don't purchase from breeders who haven't taken every possible step to ensure a pup's lifelong health and temperament. When a member goes ahead and purchases from a breeder who seems to leaving information off their site in order make it more difficult to look up clearances, it's hard for people to express their frustration positively.

That's why you're getting so many questions about clearances. Do your pup's parents have the four clearances outlined in the GRCA's code of ethics? Or did the breeder convince you that they weren't necessary?

And the standard is important. A truly white dog is outside both American and English standards. So if a dog is white, he's not bred to either standard. And the standard is important to most breed enthusiasts. It's what defines the Golden and keeps him true to his look and purpose. I think that's where you're getting the mocking of "English Cream." A truly cream colored dog could be inside the English standard. But this breeder is intentionally breeding for a particular color (already a bad idea, since it means more important concerns go down the list) outside the standard (another problem).

I don't say this to excuse any posts that were mocking instead of being productive, but I don't think you're going to find a warm welcome for your breeder here until it becomes clear that all clearances are being done. And even if that's the case, you're going to find little traction on the idea of a white Golden Retriever. Nonetheless, I hope that the people who came across as mocking take a second look and consider whether an apology is in order. It's one thing to make a point about good breeding practices or to assess a breeder. It's another to mock a new member.

All that aside, you own the dog now, and we love dogs. I hope your pup has a long, happy life with you, and I hope you stay on the forum. The common health and behavioral questions will apply no matter the dog's color, and I think you'll find some of the same people who feel strongly about clearances and the standard are the quickest to help when there's a problem or to give useful training suggestions when you have a question. You're probably not going to convince anybody to like your breeder, but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised about how much everybody likes your dog.

I, for example, would love to hear her (his?) name and to see more pictures.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Wow, looking back, most of the posts were quite mild.... what did I miss?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> Wow, looking back, most of the posts were quite mild.... what did I miss?


And at least speaking for myself, I was not poking fun of the OP. If there was any fun poking it was at the English Creme tag that keeps coming up again and again.


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

Lets keep this thread civil. Please. I agree that a breeder advertising "Rare English Cremes" is suspicious but there are very good breeders working from English lines and there are great British lines out there that have light coats and also great longevity. 

Before I really knew anything about goldens I lost my semi golden Arby to cancer and called a breeder advertising in the paper for goldens. She asked what color I preffered and I answered "Red". She told me I needed to see her pups and I went to visit and met Oakly a Very light golden. He comes from great European lines and trailer trash US lines. I could not be happier with his looks, temperment or health to date.

Now that I am older and wiser I would do more research on a next breeder but I am very happy with the health and temperment of my present goldens.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

This is the problem I am having, who isn't being civil?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I don't think it was anything extreme, but if you try to put yourself in the OP's shoes, he comes on and makes a sincere post about his dog, and there's a mocking of a term he uses in his first post (cream) and then again in his next post (pure white). I'm sure it was all intended in good fun, but if I put myself in his shoes, I'd feel mocked and piled on.


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## SandyK (Mar 20, 2011)

I have never posted into a thread where there are very strong opinions, but this one has peaked my interest. I have been involved with goldens for over thirty years. Only as a love for the breed and their friendly nature. Not for show, hunting, breeding, etc. I am very confused as to why so many people have bad things to say about light colored goldens. Someone else made a comment about being "golden retrievers" but no one ever complains about red...they are not gold in color. I personally love them all just the same. My golden now is the lightest I have ever had and the smallest. I love her just the same and I don't consider her a "rotten apple" because of her color.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

SandyK said:


> I have never posted into a thread where there are very strong opinions, but this one has peaked my interest. I have been involved with goldens for over thirty years. Only as a love for the breed and their friendly nature. Not for show, hunting, breeding, etc. I am very confused as to why so many people have bad things to say about light colored goldens. Someone else made a comment about being "golden retrievers" but no one ever complains about red...they are not gold in color. I personally love them all just the same. My golden now is the lightest I have ever had and the smallest. I love her just the same and I don't consider her a "rotten apple" because of her color.


Just as a point of order, the redder dogs are supposed to be red gold. The standard specifically states that a true mahogany would not be within standard. And I would feel the same way about a breeder who claimed "Canadian Reds." If a breeder puts color above health, temperament, and competing, and if a breeder deliberately breeds for a non-standard color, I think that's a problem.


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## SandyK (Mar 20, 2011)

Looked at copy of my AKC papers. They have light golden, golden, dark golden as choices to check. Is the problem just with the extra names that are being given? My Lily's father is from Romania (with certs) but there was no mention of "English Cream". To me she is just a light golden. If the original poster here just said "light golden" would that have been better? Are most of you here just upset at how the breeder names their goldens? Sorry, I am just confused as to why everyone seemed to jump on the op.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

SandyK said:


> I have never posted into a thread where there are very strong opinions, but this one has peaked my interest. I have been involved with goldens for over thirty years. Only as a love for the breed and their friendly nature. Not for show, hunting, breeding, etc. I am very confused as to why so many people have bad things to say about light colored goldens. Someone else made a comment about being "golden retrievers" but no one ever complains about red...they are not gold in color. I personally love them all just the same. My golden now is the lightest I have ever had and the smallest. I love her just the same and I don't consider her a "rotten apple" because of her color.


It's hard for me to get my point across without sounding hurtful. I guess how I feel about it is, if you're going to own a dog that is white, then don't claim it is a golden retriever. You don't see people calling their black labs yellow labs - because the dog is black, not yellow. I know it sounds nitpicky, but that's who I am. :

A white retriever _to me_ is just that - a white retriever. It may very well have the same temperament and appearance of a golden retriever (save for the obvious of course) but in my mind it's not a golden retriever. I am absolutely not implying that a white retriever is a rotten apple - it's just not a golden retriever is all! For what it's worth, I actually think white retrievers are very pretty. They always remind me of the kuvasz (at least in looks):


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

SandyK said:


> Looked at copy of my AKC papers. They have light golden, golden, dark golden as choices to check. Is the problem just with the extra names that are being given? My Lily's father is from Romania (with certs) but there was no mention of "English Cream". To me she is just a light golden. If the original poster here just said "light golden" would that have been better? Are most of you here just upset at how the breeder names their goldens? Sorry, I am just confused as to why everyone seemed to jump on the op.


Maybe you didn't see it, but on the previous page, I wrote a whole post about the problems and potential problems with the breeder:




tippykayak said:


> When a member goes ahead and purchases from a breeder who seems to leaving information off their site in order make it more difficult to look up clearances, it's hard for people to express their frustration positively.
> 
> That's why you're getting so many questions about clearances. Do your pup's parents have the four clearances outlined in the GRCA's code of ethics? Or did the breeder convince you that they weren't necessary?
> 
> And the standard is important. A truly white dog is outside both American and English standards. So if a dog is white, he's not bred to either standard. And the standard is important to most breed enthusiasts. It's what defines the Golden and keeps him true to his look and purpose. I think that's where you're getting the mocking of "English Cream." A truly cream colored dog could be inside the English standard. But this breeder is intentionally breeding for a particular color (already a bad idea, since it means more important concerns go down the list) outside the standard (another problem).


So it has little to do with the name, though "English Cream" has come to be synonymous with poor breeding practices for many of us. It has to do with the problems with breeding for color, the problems with breeding dogs deliberately outside of standard, and the questions about clearances.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SandyK said:


> Looked at copy of my AKC papers. They have light golden, golden, dark golden as choices to check. Is the problem just with the extra names that are being given? My Lily's father is from Romania (with certs) but there was no mention of "English Cream". To me she is just a light golden. If the original poster here just said "light golden" would that have been better? Are most of you here just upset at how the breeder names their goldens? Sorry, I am just confused as to why everyone seemed to jump on the op.


I did not jump on the OP. :uhoh: 

My first responding post was intended as a throat clearing because the original post sounded like a defensive charge and included an endorsement of the breeder simply based on how much they love their puppy. And that people should follow their impulses instead of thoroughly screening breeders - something that could get a lot of people in trouble. 

There are really GOOD English type breeders out there, and as long as they are on the up and up and doing everything they should, more power to them. 

I posted the pictures of the "english creme" because I was responding to that fad, not the OP. 

My comment on the "pure white" was a "Oh gawd" gut response based on all of the threads and posts I've read from concerned and responsible people trying to educate the masses about why golden retrievers should not be "white". Or sold as "white" dogs. 

I do stand by what I said in my first post. There is no point in arguing or defending the OP's decision to buy the puppy. It's done and there is no going back. Time to move on.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I think one of the reasons people have been posting about the "Cream" or "white" Golden thing is that the OP states that he/she has read through the other threads concerning Starr Goldens, so he/she is aware that many/most of the regular contributors to the forum have problems not only with Starr Goldens, but also with the Cream/white marketing program. I got the impression from the first post that the OP was saying "You all said how terrible this kennel was, but my "Very White" puppy is wonderful."


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have to agree that there is something kuvasz about the white goldens. They sometimes have such harsh expressions.


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## SandyK (Mar 20, 2011)

Ok...I understand better now. I guess I was more focused on the op getting a new puppy. Sorry, now that I look back I understand it was more about being happy with the breeder of their new puppy. I now understand the cream and white thing is about breeders and deception. See I jumped in my first discussion without understanding what I was trying to defend.:doh: Forgive me, I meant no harm and now understand no one was jumping the op...just breeders who misrepresent!!


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

SandyK said:


> Ok...I understand better now. I guess I was more focused on the op getting a new puppy. Sorry, now that I look back I understand it was more about being happy with the breeder of their new puppy. I now understand the cream and white thing is about breeders and deception. See I jumped in my first discussion without understanding what I was trying to defend.:doh: Forgive me, I meant no harm and now understand no one was jumping the op...just breeders who misrepresent!!


No problem at all!


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## kdel (Jul 26, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> I have to agree that there is something kuvasz about the white goldens. They sometimes have such harsh expressions.


Wow, I had never heard of a Kuvasz so I looked up the breed and saw some pictures. 

I can't help but wonder if some of the really white "golden breeders" are actually crossing the two?

No need for anyone to get offended - just an observation!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Look up silver labs... they look like they have weim in them...


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## kdel (Jul 26, 2011)

I actually saw a lady at my vet with a "silver" lab and my husband said to her - " wow - nice weimeraner". She wasn't pleased.:doh:


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

kdel said:


> Wow, I had never heard of a Kuvasz so I looked up the breed and saw some pictures.
> 
> I can't help but wonder if some of the really white "golden breeders" are actually crossing the two?
> 
> No need for anyone to get offended - just an observation!


After talking with somebody about some breeders in Croatia and Serbia, I would not be surprised in the least. :no:


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Interesting to see that the puppy has cream ears and will darken with age- it certainly won't stay that 'pale' . There are some very reputable breeders both in Croatia and in Serbia and the ones that I know personally, are certainly not crossing their goldens with other breeds. Annef


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Kuvasz have completely different personalities from goldens, so it would be a shame if people are crossing them to make a white retriever and then trying to pass them off as white golden retrievers ("white golden" just makes me cringe, talk about a paradoxical term!).

I think Kuvasz are really pretty though.


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