# I need reassurance (adolescence)



## LZL (Feb 2, 2020)

First sorry for language mistakes, I am not a native speaker. 

I have a 14 month old golden retriever girl. She is in training to be my service dog. She is bred from service dog lines (high work drive and confident dogs). I do the training myself with help from professionals. I had some experience before with border collies. This is my first golden, they told me it’s the best choice for me because of how great they are as service dogs. But I am really doubting everything right now! I hope people can give me some reassurance. I feel like she is overly exited. She jumps up on strangers and I have to hold her back with the leash. She runs after everything that moves. She just has this big chaotic energy around her. I have to micro manage everything we do. Is this normal for her age? I did exactly what my trainers told me to do, so why is her behavior so chaotic? Especially the jumping and lunging to strangers is hard. At this point I thought I could bring her with me to doctor appointments. But she can’t do this because she isn’t capable of being calm around people. I never reinforced this over excitement. I really hope it’s just an age thing and things will get better. In training we practiced a thousand times to not jump on people, but she will keep trying to do it. I see all this really oblivious people who still get to manage to have a behaving dog. I see myself as pretty capable training wise + I have all this help. Why is my dog so weird and why are other dogs so calm? She gets plenty of walks, playtime, sleeping time, training, fun.. why is it so hard to keep her calm? When will she mature? Does anyone have a hopeful story for me of a similar behaving dog that turned out okay?


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Bumping up


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## Kenmar (Apr 28, 2018)

I don’t have suggestions but can only say I could have written your post regarding our 14 month old
Boy🙂


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## CCoopz (Jun 2, 2020)

Hi, I really hope some of the super experienced golden parents comment on here and help you. As some compete in obedience. 

The only thing I would say is Golden’s do take a while to mature. Despite being very intelligent dogs they have puppy energy for a longer time period that a lot of other breeds. 

We adopted Teddy (our first golden but had another dog before) when he was 18 months old. I thought he just hadn’t had enough training, this was partially true, but I soon realised some of his behaviour was also adolescent golden behaviour. Eg jumping up on guests or people on walks with exciting things like treats and balls. Not giving stolen balls back! Mouthing, not dropping toys on command. 

From the help and advice on this forum I realised I was right to work on all these behaviours with training if I wanted a well behaved golden. BUT to also have patience and empathy for his adolescent development stage. 

We really noticed Teddy’s behaviour mellowed, especially regarding his reactions to stimuli out on walks, around 2 years of age. He’s now 2 and 1/2 and is 90% of the time mellow, I use training techniques to head of stimuli I can see will hype him up. 

Also people talk of labs and golden going through an adolescence ‘deaf’ phase! Wilful deafness! 

So I suppose I’m saying, I hear you and recognise the stage your at. Try to think from a place of patience and empathy through this adolescence phase. Remember the world is still a very exciting place to your young golden. With all the training your golden is getting things will most likely get better.


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## LZL (Feb 2, 2020)

CCoopz said:


> Hi, I really hope some of the super experienced golden parents comment on here and help you. As some compete in obedience.
> 
> The only thing I would say is Golden’s do take a while to mature. Despite being very intelligent dogs they have puppy energy for a longer time period that a lot of other breeds.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the encouragement. It’s just so hard  it feels like every day is a battle because she constantly does inappropriate things that I have to manage. I’m scared she doesn’t like me because I am the one with the annoying rules (according to her). For example, this morning I had to ask her 10 times to jump in the car, she just refused and ignored me. So I had to physically put her inside. We went to the dog park and she constantly eats sticks (it’s an obsession) I have to constantly correct her because the sticks are making her sick. Almost every 10 seconds she picks up another one. I have to watch my environment because if there are other people or dogs I have to immediately put her leash on, otherwise she takes of like a torpedo to say hi (and jumps up). She is strong willed.

She is great at tasks and tricks though. She can pick up stuff and bring it to me. She can push buttons. She can give deep pressure therapy. She can walk on a loose leash if the environment isn’t too overwhelming. She can twist, wave, give paw, stand up, lay down, she knows the search comment, and we are teaching her to alert me if she smells adrenaline. So the task part is really easy with her. The actual obedience part and behaving like a calm dog is at this stage impossible, doesn’t matter how much we practice. I do a lot of “capturing calmness” and really encourage self control (she has to wait for her food, we practice down stays, I am strict on loose leash walking, I only unleash her when she is in a calm state, that sort of things). But she just goes from 1 to 10 in a second with her energy. I wonder if this is normal and she will outgrow it or if this is a character flaw and I am heading a disappointment and have to quit her service dog training. When I look around all other dogs are much calmer and easier.


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## CCoopz (Jun 2, 2020)

Hhhmm I do think there are more experienced people on here who can give you better advice. 
But something piqued my interest in what you described. When she does things you don’t want like chew sticks are you using positive training methods to re-direct her? Like using very high value treats (eg smelly sausage pieces)? 
Also I wonder as a service dog when and where is her time to switch off from service and just be a dog? Can you drive to a place like a secure large field where she can roam and sniff? Preferably off-lead or on a very long line lead? 

Somebody put a great link to a webpage which was about a type of walk where the dog gets to really be a dog and enjoy it’s surroundings. Really de-stress, sniff lots, as they are getting to be their natural doggy self. 
Will try to find for you later. I read it first time thinking of what a load of phooey, isn’t that just a dig walk?! 
Then I realised actually my Teddy gets one of those walks in the morning but the afternoon is more on my terms and structure, more on lead. 
I though yes that morning walk is vital to his doggy mental health. 
Also you mention about the sticks. Remember Golden’s are very mouthy dogs. They really do explore the world with their mouths. But you are right to be cautious about this as it can lead them to harm as I know with Ted eating things on walks he shouldn’t and us ending up at the vets!


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## LZL (Feb 2, 2020)

CCoopz said:


> Hhhmm I do think there are more experienced people on here who can give you better advice.
> But something piqued my interest in what you described. When she does things you don’t want like chew sticks are you using positive training methods to re-direct her? Like using very high value treats (eg smelly sausage pieces)?
> Also I wonder as a service dog when and where is her time to switch off from service and just be a dog? Can you drive to a place like a secure large field where she can roam and sniff? Preferably off-lead or on a very long line lead?
> 
> ...


I am using a lot of positive training (toys, snacks, clicker training, praise, redirecting her). But with her stick obsession it’s a bit different. This is going on so long and I tried a lot of different ways to change this behavior. I tried redirecting her. I tried ignoring it for a while because maybe it’s an attention seeking thing. I tried prooving “leave it” and “drop it” (she can do this with everything but sticks). I tried physically picking it out of her mouth. I tried supplements cause maybe she was lacking something. I tried getting real mad at her. I yelled at her. Dragging her away from the stick. I tried to create a better toy obsession but nothing seems better than eating sticks. I am now getting her used to a muzzle to have a chance to break this cycle of self rewarding behavior. There doesn’t seem to be a solution but I can’t do nothing because she eats them so much that she gets sick, she almost needed surgery once. But I am only this frustrated with the stick eating. With other things it’s quite easy to tell her no. For example, when she tries to dig a hole in my garden, I just softly say: hey what are you doing  and than she already quits her sh*t haha. She knows she isn’t supposed to do it and she is easy to correct.

She is almost always just a dog. She isn’t ready to be a service dog yet. I think it’s really important to not give too much pressure. The tasks that we taught her are just tricks, and she loves to do tricks. We practice this tricks like 5 mins a day. We do public acces practice once every two weeks. She is just a normal dog haha, don’t worry. Because she has a lot of energy I give her plenty of exercise and moments to clear her mind. She can go running, swimming, digging holes, sniffing, play, terrorize birds, roll in poop. She has free walking like 1,5h a day. The rest of the day she gets leash walks around the block. We do little trick sessions inside for 5 min. We play and cuddle a lot when we are at home. I am really trying to balance things. If she had a rough and over exited day, I make sure the next day is easy and calm.


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## CCoopz (Jun 2, 2020)

Sounds like you are doing an amazing job! She sounds like a very lucky golden. 
Hopefully the excitement towards other people will diminish as she matures and experiences more of the world. 

But hopefully some of the experienced obedience people on here will way in soon with some wisdom. They usually do, they are busy people and on a USA time zone!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

One of my puppy people went through very similar experiences with training her pup for personal assistance. 

I do not know how you train...I am a R+ trainer who only uses a leash for safety so please consider that when I explain what this person found very helpful in calming her pups' meet n greets etc.

One thing she said really clicked was that she was giving responsibility for behaviour to her pup way too young and not stepping in to redirect before the behaviour. That is, she did not realize that she needed to watch her pup and consider every outing as a training rather and watch and redirect whenever she saw her dog's tells (which can vary from dog to dog)

So, what are your dog's tells? A cocked ear, a slightly forward muzzle in the direction of her interest? A slight change in movement? A mouth that opens or closes? A whine? A slightly dropped haunch? All dogs have tells. When you see it (it is your job to be alert) redirect to a behaviour that can be rewarded, even it that behaviour (for now) is a simple about turn. 

The puppy owner I am speaking of has been a professional dog trainer for decades and could not understand while even wearing a prong her dog was becoming uncontrolled. Several weeks of using the interrupt and redirect method has her confidence back and her willingness to take her dog in public...important for a service dog. The underlying premise is to train your dog in what you want ... 

That said, I also never let my dogs do meet n greets without permission. And very rarely allow free form play with other dogs (I have multiple dogs so they play with themselves and trusted dogs....with permission).

I had an agility instructor who always said you have to make yourself more interesting than dirt. 

As an aside, my dogs are often on leash on public walking trails. Their default behaviour is to come in to me and sit trail side when walkers/hikers with dogs approach. This doesn't happen overnight but if your dogs learn they need permission to play with non-house dogs it makes life so much easier.

These types of rules are also referred to as zen or impulse control if you'd like to research ...
Good luck & happy training.


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## LZL (Feb 2, 2020)

Sunrise said:


> One of my puppy people went through very similar experiences with training her pup for personal assistance.
> 
> I do not know how you train...I am a R+ trainer who only uses a leash for safety so please consider that when I explain what this person found very helpful in calming her pups' meet n greets etc.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply. I am mostly a R+ trainer too, I am from the Netherlands and it’s kinda the standard. most tools like prongs and E collars are banned here. I use corrections with my voice, but it’s not really a correction, just giving them direction in what to do. But I try to never use intimidation (only tried it with the stick eating, but it doesn’t work). Physical corrections is a big no. If you pop a leash here they would probably call animal protection haha. Myself I am a really soft and patient person, so R+ really fits with my personality. My dog is sensitive and the slightest frustration in my voice makes her nervous. Soft handling works best on her.

What do you exactly mean by stepping in on time? I feel like I am constantly micro managing. Her biggest problem is over excitement with people. When visitors come over to my house, I leash her to her bed. After a bit she is calmed down and I guide her to greet the visitors appropriately. After the calm greeting I tell the visitors to not give her much attention and my dog will walk off and settle. So I am managing the whole situation. If I don’t leash her it would go like this: visitors come in. My dog gets really hyped up. She would jump on them. The visitors don’t know what to do with this chaotic dog and they would make sounds and wave with their arms. My dog would only get more and more exited and will start play biting and the whole thing escalates. I don’t LET this happen, but it would happen if I didn’t micro manage. Example 2: if I would bring her to a doctors appointment while she is leashed. At the appointment there is a desk between me and the doc. My dog would get hyper because: a human!!!!!!!!!!! She would try to jump up and I will restrain her with my leash. She would spin and be a bomb of energy, still on leash. She would jump on the desk because on the other side is a humannnnnnn. You can picture it? I don’t know what else I can do, she is already hold back, she is never reinforced with this behavior, I train calm behavior constantly, I could tell her to lay down but we all know that there is no point in asking a motion, when it is the emotion that needs to change. Still she explodes... and that is just a big no go with bringing a service dog somewhere. Sure I set this training situation up, to practice. But with every new human she sees the energy explosion goes off again.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I am not very experienced with training service dogs. I have friends who have done puppy raising for a service dog group, called CCI, and there are set ages and stages for evaluation that they do. Dogs stay with their puppy raising families and work on basic dog manners, socialization and have structured upbringing until they are 18 months old. They are evaluated at some point for things that might make them a less than ideal candidate - one of those is high prey drive, chasing leaves etc. A LOT of dogs fail out. They don't even begin a serious working training program until 18 months.

You are asking a lot of your puppy at his age, especially if she has some working retriever traits that make this even more challenging for her. CCI has their dogs stay in training at a facility with a pro trainer for 6-9 months before they are matched with a home. The dog breeds they use are Golden & Labrador Retrievers and crosses of the two breeds.

Have you thought about training your dog for retrieving? The reason I ask is because sometimes it is helpful to use a dog's natural, working instincts to manage them. Since Golden Retrievers were developed to work as retrievers of small game, most of them LOVE to chase something and carry it around more than anything else. If you can teach them that they can earn that reward by being well behaved you can use it to your advantage. If she is focused on carrying a special retrieving dummy when she is outdoors she might not eat so many sticks. If you can use the retrieving dummy for a reward for good behavior she may focus on you more and not be so interested in other people - the retrieving dummy comes from you, not strangers. If I need to take my dog somewhere that is stressful for her, like the veterinarian office, or go to a place she hasn't been to before, I will often just have her carry her special retrieving bumper. My dog loves to retrieve more than anything else except maybe eat. I worked with her as a puppy for a long time and I remember clearly the day it "clicked" and she understood that if she returned to my side and sat down next to me, the game would continue. Now I use her love of retrieving to help her be good. She has a special retrieving dummy that is not ever used to play with or just chew on, it is only for retrieving so when I bring it out it is very special and high value to her.

It sounds like your dog is still so immature and needs work on self control. She needs to be given more specific jobs when you go exciting places, specific jobs broken down into small pieces. Instead of expecting her to walk calmly beside you and hold it together, have her carry a bag with her "working Place" - then when you get inside and can sit down, put the "working Place" on the ground (maybe it is a small towel, or even a flat piece of plastic that she sits on or lays down on) she has to 'fetch' it and carry it around as you move to a new location in the office. Teach her to perform small tasks while you are waiting that you can easily reward, (she touches your hand with her nose or paw etc.) I learned this working with horses, the dog needs something else to think about and occupy her mind while she is young and easily distracted. As she matures she will learn to focus more on you and tune out the rest of the world, but you will have to learn how to properly reward her focus on you. What Sunrise said above is very true - you have to be the most exciting thing in the room for your dog, more interesting than dirt or sticks or other people.

Here is a link to the facebook Group - the owner has been training and living with Golden Retrievers for many, many years to high levels of competition and also as therapy dogs. She has a puppy this year named Rune, who is almost a year old now but she has documented with photos and videos all the steps she has taken to help him be a good dog to live with and have a therapy job. The videos are organized by puppy age under the Units tab. You might enjoy seeing some of her steps and expectations on training. She is also very easy to ask questions to and is extremely kind hearted. It is a public group you can see: Life with Rune. Wishing you good luck with your journey. 
P.S. Your English is wonderful!!!!


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

It sounds like you are doing an awesome job (and your English is excellent!). You said in your original post that you chose her from “high drive” lines. That should give you a great working dog, but will not necessarily give you the “calm” dog you are hoping for. FWIW, I do think that if you keep up with the training and exercise you should start seeing a significant improvement between ages two and three. That said, I’ve had a dog similar to what you describe (the one in my avatar) and even as a senior I dont know that I would have described him as “calm”!  I think you probably need to continue on working on impulse control and polite greetings. I’d also work on having a super solid recall. I agree that muzzle training may make your life easier in regards to the stick eating behavior, but you may also want to try giving him a “job” to do (like carrying something on your walks).

There should be a lot of stuff online about addressing the behaviors you are struggling with. I’d take a look around and see if there are techniques that make sense to you and that you’d like to try. I personally like Susan Garrett (check out her “crate games” and “It’s yer choice” game - both of which teach impulse control) and Fenzi Dog Sport Academy, but I’m sure there are other options.

Bottom line... be patient. Your dog is in a difficult stage of life (like a15 year old kid), testing her independence and seeing what she can get away with and just wanting to do what she wants to do. Be patient, be kind, be firm, be consistent. Keep training - not only manners but fun stuff too (tricks, obedience routines, dock diving, nose work, assistance skills, etc.) as it will cement your relationship and tire her mind and body. I think if you can tough it out a few more months you‘ll begin to see a noticeable improvement.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I just read your second post. Do you have a command where you dog has to "go to place" (a dog bed or a small rug or mat) and stay there until you release her? This might work for teaching her to allow visitors into your home. You would need a friend to help you practice because you will have to continuously put her back on her 'place' each time she gets up but it will help her learn self control. YOu can also practice during meal times (yours and hers) and also teach her "leave it" and things that specifically work on self control.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I have to respond on my phone, so sorry if it seems choppy 

By stepping in on time, I mean redirecting to an alternate behaviour when you see a spark of potential arousal (watch the ears, posture etc). In your dog's case it may start when a person is 3, 5, 10 meters away so be alert to intercede.

Train alternate behaviours at home with a very high rate of Reinforcement but these should probably be calming behaviors.

In your case I might try mat work, training a relaxed lie down on a mat since you could bring the mat with you to the doctors. Perhaps a snuffle mat or scattered treats for outdoor activities (have a pocket full of treats at least at first). For an approaching dog (at first as soon as you see or hear the dog) step aside with your dog and either have him sit, down or if the other dog is far enough away toss a few treats onto the ground and let your dog get them and then return to you (front, heel, sit I would not use a down in the case of an approaching dog), if you have to hold the collar while your dog maintains position and once the other dog has passed either more treats or continue on.

The alternate behaviours have to be trained separately at home with increasing distractions, distance & duration.

I also use a muzzle hold which has been trained as a rewarding experience...I will allow my dog to put his muzzle (or I put my hand down to his/her muzzle) as we walk by people or dogs. This is often referred to a pocket hand.

Another 'safe harbor' I train for no interaction allowed is for my dog to sit with my straddling him/her.

The alternate behaviours above have to be trained with heavy reinforcement as they may not be naturally reinforcing at first. And trained in a variety of situations.

Basically what you are trying to do is train alternate quiet behaviours that your dog will eventually find rewarding so that you can use these behaviours to prevent unwanted behaviours.

BTW the reason I will use a down with people but not with other dogs (I actually do use it with a straddle at dog shows but by that time it is very well trained as a safe harbor) is a down is a submissive posture that really might invite the other dog and or set your dog up for failure if used when your dog is too young.

I hope this helps. To summarize, a mat might be very useful at a doctors office while alternative trained behaviours are useful around other dogs. And don't let your dog socialize without permission...I know you are having issues now but try to train calming behaviours and implement them as soon as possible. For example, for strangers my dogs must sit before they have permission to interact but this is also trained in everyday life by sitting before a door opens, waiting for permission to exit a car (close the door if he tries to jump out without permission).


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

And FenziDogSportsAcademy has new classes starting on Feb 1st. You may find useful courses there ... I love them and see they have already been mentioned.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Chiming in with my knowledge of SDs as well

I know a couple SD trainers, one with a Golden, one with a BM, and follow some on IG. I will say that not a single SD trainer I know or follow is completely R+. Most amateurs use prong or e collars, especially on young dogs. The professional programs do use head collars, which are, in my opinion, aversive. I imagine that may be why it feels that you're behind other dogs, is that you've chosen to take a different training route. 

I do agree with that the others have said, definitely find an alternate behavior to train. That is what we do. If I see a person walking by, I ask him to "heel" or I ask him to look at me. We have been establishing a "place" command and it has been wonderful as well.


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## LZL (Feb 2, 2020)

Thank you for all the encouraging responses! I will read them more thoroughly later and see what I can use. Just wanted to add what I mean by “service dog lines”. I know with goldens you have working line (hunting) and show line and maybe dual purpose. My dog comes from lines that are specifically bred for service dog work. Her parents and grandparents etc. all had pups that were meant for doing work as a service dog  they are selected on confidence, work drive, friendliness, health. They aren’t selected for their hunting skills. But they need a high work drive because they are going to do a lot of tasks for the handler. You can’t have a dog that is too lazy to do anything haha. The things my dog is bred for are now the things that we struggle with, so it isn’t a big surprise. She was bred to be friendly and confident (now I have a dog that wants to greet everyone and doesn’t need my reassurance). She was bred for high working drive (now she is a bomb with energy although easily motivated for tasks). Some people think service dogs are born mellow but this isn’t the case. That’s why I specified her high work drive in my openings post. So that people understand the kind of dog I have. In this topic I am talking about all the problems but there are two sides on the coin. She is easy to train, not easily scared, super friendly so I don’t have to worry about aggression, she sees the fun in everything. I feel like if I can make her to behave appropriate she is an amazing dog. And I want to add something else. I don’t think she is thát high energy. She is a calm dog when I am alone with her. I think the chaotic explosions with people come from the fact that she can’t cope. She is too enthusiastic. I see this behavior more in a “meltdown” kind of way and I don’t think she is actually hyper and busy herself. It’s just a mask. Don’t know if I explained this right haha.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

LZL said:


> Thank you for all the encouraging responses! I will read them more thoroughly later and see what I can use. Just wanted to add what I mean by “service dog lines”. I know with goldens you have working line (hunting) and show line and maybe dual purpose. My dog comes from lines that are specifically bred for service dog work. Her parents and grandparents etc. all had pups that were meant for doing work as a service dog  they are selected on confidence, work drive, friendliness, health. They aren’t selected for their hunting skills. But they need a high work drive because they are going to do a lot of tasks for the handler. You can’t have a dog that is too lazy to do anything haha. The things my dog is bred for are now the things that we struggle with, so it isn’t a big surprise. She was bred to be friendly and confident (now I have a dog that wants to greet everyone and doesn’t need my reassurance). She was bred for high working drive (now she is a bomb with energy although easily motivated for tasks). Some people think service dogs are born mellow but this isn’t the case. That’s why I specified her high work drive in my openings post. So that people understand the kind of dog I have. In this topic I am talking about all the problems but there are two sides on the coin. She is easy to train, not easily scared, super friendly so I don’t have to worry about aggression, she sees the fun in everything. I feel like if I can make her to behave appropriate she is an amazing dog. And I want to add something else. I don’t think she is thát high energy. She is a calm dog when I am alone with her. I think the chaotic explosions with people come from the fact that she can’t cope. She is too enthusiastic. I see this behavior more in a “meltdown” kind of way and I don’t think she is actually hyper and busy herself. It’s just a mask. Don’t know if I explained this right haha.


What I did to start dealing with excessive people excitement was I started walking back and forth past a local store (Target) every single day, twice a day. We walk by all sorts of different people who talk to him, ask to pet him, etc and my entire job is making sure he knows that he will not get rewarded for going to greet them. Our next step, a similar issue to what you're having, is when people do approach to pet, he gets excited and wants to jump all over them. I've kind of had to experiment with this one, but I've found placing him in a "down" and asking him to look at me, helps keep him from just launching at someone's face for kisses. It will always be a work in progress, as he is not necessarily "low energy". He performs better when he's had some exercise and best when I've worked his body and brain. 

Right now we can comfortably go to restaurants, outdoor malls, parks, etc, without him wanting to leap all over strangers. We're still tackling when people come to say hi. Something interesting I've found is that he seems to know when he is in the show ring or practicing, because when the "judge" approaches for the exam, he might wag his tail, but he stays focused on whatever treat I'm holding. The same cannot be said if we're training on his flat collar, but I use different treats for obedience and showing, so it may just be a matter of value.


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## Dunmar (Apr 15, 2020)

My 12 month old has been being a little bit of a jerk lately. I thought maybe due to the bad weather and lack of exercise. I can't walk on ice and that is all we have here.
I have upped our indoor fetch games and purchased a snuffle mat. 
We have been hiding her food in tightly wrapped blankets and her snuffle mat.
It has helped a LOT with her naughtiness.


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## LZL (Feb 2, 2020)

Instead of a free walk, I kept her on a long line this morning. She had enough space to sniff around, dig holes, do dog stuff. But it’s short enough so I can keep our contact. We walked a hiking trail for 1,5h. A couple of times I unleashed her to play with me. We played tug, I let her apport it a couple of times, I encouraged her to balance on trees and crawl under them. I asked her to do some tricks like spin and wave through my legs. After the play time I immediately put the leash back on again. Sometimes she is really focused but other times she just doesn’t care about me, toys or food. That’s the moment I quit the free play session too and put the leash back on. I hope that maybe this is a way to improve our bond, (free walking = enjoying things with human together. And not wandering of or stalking other people). With the leash I hope to take more responsibility and not give her more freedom than she can handle. Anyone having thoughts about this? Am I doing things right?

I have one question. On our hike we encounter other dogs. Sometimes it’s a really playful dog that goes spinning circles around us. My dog gets hyped up about this, and things get chaotic. I want to teach her that she can play with the dog only with my permission. While the other dog was spinning around us, I tried to give commands to my dog, but it’s impossible because my dog wants to play too. I hoped that she would calm down so I can reward her by unleashing her so she can play with the dog. But this seems too much to ask. I am not sure how to handle this situation. By unleashing her I reinforce the hyper behavior. By keeping her on leash things get tensioned because we are being harassed by another dog. I know other people should call their dog back but they won’t. I rather learn to cope with these situations myself than constantly getting mad at other people.


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## LZL (Feb 2, 2020)

Tagrenine said:


> Chiming in with my knowledge of SDs as well
> 
> I know a couple SD trainers, one with a Golden, one with a BM, and follow some on IG. I will say that not a single SD trainer I know or follow is completely R+. Most amateurs use prong or e collars, especially on young dogs. The professional programs do use head collars, which are, in my opinion, aversive. I imagine that may be why it feels that you're behind other dogs, is that you've chosen to take a different training route.
> 
> I do agree with that the others have said, definitely find an alternate behavior to train. That is what we do. If I see a person walking by, I ask him to "heel" or I ask him to look at me. We have been establishing a "place" command and it has been wonderful as well.


This is so true! I watch a lot of youtube videos about service dogs. But all those videos are from US handlers. I think service dogs are more normal there and thats why they dominate social media. In my country SD’s are rare. So almost no video’s to watch. I see a big culture difference between US dog training and Dutch dog training. It seems really normalized in the US to use prongs and e collars. In my opinion this isn’t right, but that’s another discussion. I also sometimes get the feeling that dogs in the US aren’t treated as equal. The opinion of the dog doesn’t matter, they are forced to listen in a weird way, the SD’s have to do things they clearly don’t like (like going to really overstimulated places, being squeezed in a car with strange dogs, getting pet even when they hate it). The dog is more like an object you can do with what you want... here in the Netherlands dogs have opinions, if the dog is showing all this stress signals we quit petting, we don’t force them to get along with everyone, and if they really don’t want to do something they have choice. When you use an e collar the dog doesn’t really have a choice because the owner just uses the remote, like a robot... I think the US way is faster is the short run but the Dutch way is better in the long run. But I have to accept that my dog isn’t as fast as people who use all these tools.


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## LZL (Feb 2, 2020)

nolefan said:


> I am not very experienced with training service dogs. I have friends who have done puppy raising for a service dog group, called CCI, and there are set ages and stages for evaluation that they do. Dogs stay with their puppy raising families and work on basic dog manners, socialization and have structured upbringing until they are 18 months old. They are evaluated at some point for things that might make them a less than ideal candidate - one of those is high prey drive, chasing leaves etc. A LOT of dogs fail out. They don't even begin a serious working training program until 18 months.
> 
> You are asking a lot of your puppy at his age, especially if she has some working retriever traits that make this even more challenging for her. CCI has their dogs stay in training at a facility with a pro trainer for 6-9 months before they are matched with a home. The dog breeds they use are Golden & Labrador Retrievers and crosses of the two breeds.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I didn’t know training takes that long. I googled puberty in dogs, it said that it’s only 3 months. But my dog is in puberty for much longer and there is still no end in sight, lol.

And yes I am amateur retrieving with her, just for fun, no classes. I use a food dummy. She loves it!! I throw the dummy in the bushes so it’s a bit hard to find and she has to use her nose. She is really enjoying it. I sometimes use it to control her behavior. But not all the time because she gets so overstimulated that she goes into zoomies, and I like to walk quite long distances. Constantly throwing that thing for 1,5h isn’t too great for her mind and body haha. Maybe I should bring the dummy everytime and hide it in a bag when she needs some calm time.


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## LZL (Feb 2, 2020)

Sunrise said:


> I have to respond on my phone, so sorry if it seems choppy
> 
> By stepping in on time, I mean redirecting to an alternate behaviour when you see a spark of potential arousal (watch the ears, posture etc). In your dog's case it may start when a person is 3, 5, 10 meters away so be alert to intercede.
> 
> ...


Thank you, a lot of great tips. Especially bringing a mat to the doctor. Maybe it’s easier for her to understand what is expected.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

LZL said:


> I googled puberty in dogs, it said that it’s only 3 months.....I am amateur retrieving with he....not all the time because she gets so overstimulated that she goes into zoomies, and..... I like to walk quite long distances. Constantly throwing that thing for 1,5h isn’t too great for her mind and body haha. Maybe I should bring the dummy everytime and hide it in a bag when she needs some calm time.


Large breed dogs in general have longer adolescence and Goldens especially take longer to mature mentally. Like people, some are more serious sooner but some stay silly long into adulthood. Three years old would not be unusual till a Golden or Labrador Retriever is mentally mature.

If you can work with her to retrieve and return to sit at your heel and be steady and wait while you throw the dummy, then she does not get to retrieve until you give her a release word - this can help her understand that listening to your commands will allow her to earn the reward. This will not make her calm as much as it helps her understand that FOCUS ON YOU is her job and how she earns the reward. I hope that makes sense. You can use a long line to help her learn to be steady and wait if that hasn't been taught to her yet. This is not just throwing a toy and her running around like a wild woman for fun - it is learning control to earn the reward.

If you teach her to go to a mat at the doctors office, you can eventually start cutting the mat down in to smaller and smaller squares so that it is very simple to carry around and not annoying. She will learn to sit on a tiny washcloth if you work on it. Then it is easy for her to carry it around for you. Gives her a job. You could even wrap it around a bumper. 

Do you work with obedience trainers who know a lot about Retrievers? A trainer who works with them a lot might really be helpful in working through these problems because they are so familiar with the working Traits of the breed. Maybe the breed club could help you get in contact with someone close to you who could help in person a little bit? Golden Netherlands. is the link I found. There are also facebook groups of working Golden retrievers in Europe who might be helpful with networking. Since your girl loves retrieving so much it could be a fun outlet for you. Also have you talked to her breeder? Is she helpful?


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

From your description I think I want to move to the Netherlands! 

Never fear, there is definitely a growing group of trainers and owners in the US who would agree with the Dutch philosophy of dog training. Based on your description I’ll repeat my recommendation that you check out both Susan Garrett and Fenzi Dog Sport Academy. Both have lots of online resources that would be right up your alley!


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

LZL said:


> This is so true! I watch a lot of youtube videos about service dogs. But all those videos are from US handlers. I think service dogs are more normal there and thats why they dominate social media. In my country SD’s are rare. So almost no video’s to watch. I see a big culture difference between US dog training and Dutch dog training. It seems really normalized in the US to use prongs and e collars. In my opinion this isn’t right, but that’s another discussion. I also sometimes get the feeling that dogs in the US aren’t treated as equal. The opinion of the dog doesn’t matter, they are forced to listen in a weird way, the SD’s have to do things they clearly don’t like (like going to really overstimulated places, being squeezed in a car with strange dogs, getting pet even when they hate it). The dog is more like an object you can do with what you want... here in the Netherlands dogs have opinions, if the dog is showing all this stress signals we quit petting, we don’t force them to get along with everyone, and if they really don’t want to do something they have choice. When you use an e collar the dog doesn’t really have a choice because the owner just uses the remote, like a robot... I think the US way is faster is the short run but the Dutch way is better in the long run. But I have to accept that my dog isn’t as fast as people who use all these tools.


I have VERY strong feelings about the number of SDs in the US. Does the Netherlands have a regulatory body? Every single dog here is an SD...and many many times it is very obvious that they are NOT a service dog. There seems to be a lot of confusion about ESAs and service dogs too...I always see people in public with their vest that says "emotional support animal" and they don't realize that ESAs do not have public access. 

As far as normalized in the US - I think that view has changed a lot since the 80's/90's. There are still many trainers who use them, but 90% of the classes I find around me are solely R+. My current obedience class doesn't even use the word "no" LOL. 

And speaking of people forcing their dogs, last night I was chilling with my dog when a man with a Yorkie on a flexileash comes up. Doesn't even ask me anything, just lets his dog run up. So they greet each other and eventually my dog wants to play but he's 7x larger than the Yorkie. It screams and screams and starts biting him and the guy was just laughing and saying "HE'S PLAYING. I KNOW ITS SCARY BUT PLAYING." - it was clear to me his dog was terrified, but he insisted, so we politely excused ourselves.


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## LZL (Feb 2, 2020)

Tagrenine said:


> I have VERY strong feelings about the number of SDs in the US. Does the Netherlands have a regulatory body? Every single dog here is an SD...and many many times it is very obvious that they are NOT a service dog. There seems to be a lot of confusion about ESAs and service dogs too...I always see people in public with their vest that says "emotional support animal" and they don't realize that ESAs do not have public access.
> 
> As far as normalized in the US - I think that view has changed a lot since the 80's/90's. There are still many trainers who use them, but 90% of the classes I find around me are solely R+. My current obedience class doesn't even use the word "no" LOL.
> 
> And speaking of people forcing their dogs, last night I was chilling with my dog when a man with a Yorkie on a flexileash comes up. Doesn't even ask me anything, just lets his dog run up. So they greet each other and eventually my dog wants to play but he's 7x larger than the Yorkie. It screams and screams and starts biting him and the guy was just laughing and saying "HE'S PLAYING. I KNOW ITS SCARY BUT PLAYING." - it was clear to me his dog was terrified, but he insisted, so we politely excused ourselves.


In the Netherlands people seem to respect the concept of a service dog. You can have a dog from an organization and insurances will pay for it. But those organizations only train guide dogs and dogs for people in a wheelchair. You have another group that isn’t covered by insurance (psychiatric dogs or dogs that have to be trained multi purpose). Because of the lack of insurance, organizations don’t really train them. You have to do it yourself. There is an unspoken rule to get professional help with training. This professional help costs between 10.000 and 20.000 euro. So you only go on this path when you are REALLY serious about it. I never heard of someone faking a service dog here... it just isn’t a thing haha. We don’t have ESA’s here at all, it doesn’t exist.

I didn’t know views were changing in the US. I am glad. Didn’t expect it though, because everything I see on youtube is still based on alpha theory and dominance + all those tools D:

What you describe with the yorkie is exactly what I mean. Dogs have an opinion and boundaries! Respect it.... some people think they have to boss their dogs around.


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## LZL (Feb 2, 2020)

pawsnpaca said:


> From your description I think I want to move to the Netherlands!
> 
> Never fear, there is definitely a growing group of trainers and owners in the US who would agree with the Dutch philosophy of dog training. Based on your description I’ll repeat my recommendation that you check out both Susan Garrett and Fenzi Dog Sport Academy. Both have lots of online resources that would be right up your alley!


Thank you, I am definitely gonna check it out


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## Hudson's Fan (Dec 31, 2019)

Hi LZL, I'll keep it short as possible and only address the stick obsession. Hudson is very strong minded and is now 18 months old. Several months ago she would obsess over sticks and, worse than that, shoreline "junk" like a dead crab, etc. It was work but I broke her. I kept her on a short leash, each time she grabbed what I didn't want her to, I'd poke her sort of hard near her snout or neck and gave a stern "No". Immediately, when she dropped it I'd give her a good quality training treat and excitedly say "YES!". I did this over and over. She caught on quickly and will now, if I'm not looking, pick up a dead crab and drop it at my feet. Of course, she gets a huge rub and praise AND a treat. Sticks subject, I have trouble with still time to time but I've learned to work it out WITH her. I allow chewing for a short while, correct Immediately when/if she eats/swallow and consistently use "drop" command and she spits out the chunks as she enjoys the chewing. A vet told me not to worry too much but I know too many wood chunks cannot be good. 
I really think there is a place for stern, not too rough, physical touch as I described. Be patient and match what her/his Mom might do with her teeth when her puppy would, well....piss her off.....give a hard, not too hard correction. Always love on your pup....sounds like you do a great job on that but sometimes tough love is needed for symbiotic relations.


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