# Looking for Advice...possible oops litter.



## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm fully prepared to get slammed here, but before you judge, please consider my intentions and help me decide the best way to proceed. 

I am a vet tech who has decided to breed goldens. Not just any goldens, but genetically sound healthy goldens with exceptional temperament. I am not currently involved in conformation, but id like to be at some point. I acquired our male 4 years ago from a wonderful breeder in Europe! All of her dogs are from reputable lines and titled in conformation & hunting. We felt our family would be ready to breed next year and decided to get our female from another very reputable show breeder in Europe with similar breeding philosophies as the first breeder. We researched the pedigrees, coefficiency of inbreeding, health of the lines, etc. and with the breeders guidance felt this new dog would be a good match with our current dog.

OFA hip elbows, heart and CERF have all been done on our male. Preliminary hip xrays were done on our female by the breeder before we acquired her, which came out excellent, but she was only a year old. I was planning on getting her full health clearances when she turned 2, which is next March. If all her health checks came back clear, we were hoping to breed next summer. 

Well, I noticed her heat started about 12 days ago. We have been keeping her inside and separated from our male. Yesterday I left the house for an hour, came home and the dogs were together . Our male busted through my daughters bedroom window, chewed the miniblinds & all and got to her. I didn't witness a breeding, but can only assume the worst. I called our vet right away, asked about anything that might prevent a pregnancy from occurring, but she said the "mismatch shot" has been removed from the market and the only thing that can be done was to wait for a confirmed pregnancy and abort it. 

I do not wish to abort a litter. So If breeding occurred and it takes, we may have a litter on our hands sooner than planned, which was in no way intended and I feel like a total failure. In regards to doing the most responsible thing for our dogs and the potential litter, MY QUESTIONS ARE: What is the best way to go about placing the puppies since we werent able to get full health clearances done? I dont mean how to find them homes, but should all these puppies be registered? All would be limited registration with spay/neuter contracts anyways as originally planned. Are there any special considerations in caring for a younger mom while raising this litter?


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Contact a GR rescue and place them through them--no need for the pups to be registered and the rescue will see to it that the pups are spayed/neutered. Or you can spay your female immediately--don't wait for her to show signs of pregnancy. Clearances are one tiny piece of the puzzle when it comes to breeding and since neither pup has proven themselves worthy of breeding why contribute to more poorly bred goldens.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I have to say this: Another cart before a horse. Getting involved in competing at "some point" really should be : Currently starting to compete (conformation/obedience/agility/field...) and hope to possibly breed at some point.

That said, as a vet tech I would think that you have all the resources available to you regarding what the risks are, etc etc.


I have never had an "oops" litter in over 30 years of breeding. However, I have always said that if I ever did, particularly if either parent were too young and clearances not done, the puppies would be sold on LIMITED REGISTRATIONS. As for the cost - enough to cover their vet care and anything left would be donated to The Golden Retriever Foundation. I would not make one dime. Of course, all potential buyers would know that this was NOT a planned litter and that clearances were not done yet.


I would tend to agree that as there has been no attempt to "prove" these dogs in any venue, I would be more inclined to abort the litter, and possibly spay the bitch.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> Contact a GR rescue and place them through them--no need for the pups to be registered and the rescue will see to it that the pups are spayed/neutered. Or you can spay your female immediately--don't wait for her to show signs of pregnancy. Clearances are one tiny piece of the puzzle when it comes to breeding and since neither pup has proven themselves worthy of breeding why contribute to more poorly bred goldens.


When you say "proven worthy," do you mean conformation titles?? Or working titles? As far as I am aware, English type goldens don't fare well in AKC shows, but does that mean they are not worthy of being bred in the US? IABCA was the only shows I was recommended showing in here in the US because they recognize the UK standard. Our female had been shown in Europe in puppy classes prior to coming to us. Because I have no showing experience, we are currently in conformation classes now. Both dogs have great genetics, no history of health problems in either line and both have extremely good mellow temperaments. So although this planned pairing was unintended for now, I would not go as far to claim they are poorly bred.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Obedience, Agility, Field...even a CGC title for either. As it stands now, your nothing more than a BYB who is breeding the family pets and has gotten caught up in their European lineage. My puppy mill momma golden has champions in her pedigree but should have never had a single litter.

I really question how folks qualify breeders as reputable. I seriously doubt a reputable breeder in Europe would ship off a great breeding prospect to an unknown in the states with full breeding rights. However, I do believe there are breeders in Eastern Europe that are capitalizing on the "English Cream" novelty in the U.S. and are selling to anyone who comes with $.

I also question anyone who has their sights set on breeding who believes the perfect match for their golden is conveniently the other one living in the same house. Aside from being the opposite sex & both goldens, what makes your two goldens compatible? Strengths, weaknesses?


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

Pointgold said:


> I have never had an "oops" litter in over 30 years of breeding. However, I have always said that if I ever did, particularly if either parent were too young and clearances not done, the puppies would be sold on LIMITED REGISTRATIONS. As for the cost - enough to cover their vet care and anything left would be donated to The Golden Retriever Foundation. I would not make one dime. Of course, all potential buyers would know that this was NOT a planned litter and that clearances were not done yet.


I've had goldens all my life and all we're great companions, but I had no interest in breeding them for the sake of it and all were spayed/neutered. We invested quite a bit of time (7 years so far) and money finding the right dogs to breed. When I originally decided to breed, it has been my philsophy to place ALL of our puppies on limited registration, unless we were keeping to show. And full disclosure will be given at all times to all puppy parents. So they should be registered?? Or not at all? Wouldnt it be beneficial to have them registered for sake of tracking in case any health issues do arise? 

And your suggestion to donate any adoption fees is wonderful! That is definitely something we would do...would love to donate to The Morris Foundation or other canine health related foundation. Thank you.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

I'm not a breeder, but I would say that accidents happen in life. I'm glad you're not going to abort them if they arrive. There are many families out there who will love having them as pets. 

No ones answered your question about special needs of a young mother. If no one chimes in here, perhaps your vet can answer or if there's a vet school nearby perhaps there's a specialist. 

When the litters born, even if not registered, you have wonderful opportunities for names. Just think, "oops did that really happen" call name "goofy" 

Hope you'll stick around and keep us posted. There are lots of folks here to offer info as the pregnancy progresses.. Two members' bitches delivered large litters in last two weeks. You can see pix if you poke around. 

Good luck!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

heartgoldens said:


> When you say "proven worthy," do you mean conformation titles?? Or working titles? As far as I am aware, English type goldens don't fare well in AKC shows, but does that mean they are not worthy of being bred in the US? IABCA was the only shows I was recommended showing in here in the US because they recognize the UK standard. Our female had been shown in Europe in puppy classes prior to coming to us. Because I have no showing experience, we are currently in conformation classes now. Both dogs have great genetics, no history of health problems in either line and both have extremely good mellow temperaments. So although this planned pairing was unintended for now, I would not go as far to claim they are poorly bred.


Curious as to where in Europe your dogs came from? What are your goals as far as breeding goes? What made this particular breeding so good (now or in the future)? Can you share those pedigrees (or a link to them on K9Database)?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I agree with PointGold that you put the cart before the horse. IMO breeding should not be the goal, but a byproduct of competing with your dogs. My CH boy was bred for the first time and even though he is a finished AKC CH (not Int'l CH which is completely different and takes a weekend to earn) with all his clearances and is a lovely boy, I still had a hard time deciding to breed him. The only reason I did was because the breeder has been breeding for a long time, has a good reputation, shows - and finishes - her dogs in conformation, competes in other venues besides conformation, and importantly, loved my dog and loved his pedigree. She was very excited about him and looking for qualities he has to add to her breeding program. Breeding for anything less than that is just.... (to put it nicely) not something I'm interested in. I just have to question the motives of people "looking to breed"....it just comes across as looking like a financial decision more than anything.

Good luck with this litter....since i"m not a breeder I don't have any advice. I would just seriously reconsider the decision to breed in the future until you have proven your dogs.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I agree with Outwest. Deal with the now and I also don't think you will have any problem placing them. Indeed your vet can help with your questions in regards to the mom being so young. It is your choice to register or not. Please keep us posted.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> I also question anyone who has their sights set on breeding who believes the perfect match for their golden is conveniently the other one living in the same house. Aside from being the opposite sex & both goldens, what makes your two goldens compatible? Strengths, weaknesses?


Our male has his CGC...although I wouldn't call that a title. We acquired our female years after our male as a good match for him based on their lines, temperaments, and she has been shown with "excellent" ratings in Europe, but no championship just yet. While I could've had a handler show them in IABCA shows here, I really wanted to learn and handle myself so we could enjoy the hobby together. 

I completely respect your opinion that anyone is a BYB unless otherwise proven and I can tell you now that I've put more into this than any BYB ever would. I admit, I do not have tons of experience as a breeder, totally a beginner, but I have proceeded through this with the best intentions and will continue to do so. Wish I could say I've had 30+ years of experience, but those people started somewhere. All I have is a degree in Animal Science & 12 years of being a vet tech under my belt, & trained a service dog. I certainly appreciate input from those of you that have do have experience. And if you care to elaborate on what you think makes two dogs a perfect match, I'd be interested in hearing it. I think that answer would greatly differ from person to person based on their particular goals.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I agree with PointGold that you put the cart before the horse. IMO breeding should not be the goal, but a byproduct of competing with your dogs.


If all had gone as planned, our first shows would've been this September (of which I will still bring our male) and we would not have bred til next summer, so was hoping to get that "validation" prior to them being bred. I am still not aware how an English type golden would get a CH here in the US. As far as I know, only an Intl CH is possible for English goldens in the US. 

As for your financial statement...there is no way feasible for me to recover the costs I have incurred with our dogs, but I was well aware of that from the start. We only have 1 golden female that is intact and only intended her to have 1-3 litters total. We don't rehome our dogs after they are no longer able to be bred either. These our our family members, here to stay for the longhaul. With vet costs, health checks and general maintenance, we'd be lucky to break even. So that is definitely NOT our motive.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I breed English style dogs and have a lovely cream boy owned by a friend in California who just finished his UKC championship and Intl (not worth much) but the UKC is nice. He will also be getting a CCA. My dogs that live here in NH are English style and we show them in Canada, we also get CCA's on them. We compete in Obedience and Rally and my husband does field work. You are correct about the AKC standard being very difficult for English style dogs but there are other avenues to make your dogs prove themselves. 

As for what I would do I totally agree that you have put the cart before the horse. When I started breeding it was because I was showing and had a girl that had done outstandingly well and we decided to have a litter. I don't understand the getting dogs to be a breeder thing. The fact is that the best dog is often NOT the one that you have and while you have done your clearances, if you are not competing with your dogs in one venue or another and making them prove they are worth breeding then you are a backyard breeder and that is not a nice thing to hear. 

I agree with Pointgold, the puppies need to be sold on limited registration with full disclosure and honestly I haven't been breeding as long as Pointgold has but I have been breeding for 15 years so I am a newby (yes after 15 years still a newby) and I have never had an oops litter. I have never even had a close call. 

It is a great responsibility to be a breeder you are responsible not only for the dogs you have but you are responsible for the direction of the breed in the future. I would strongly suggest putting the brakes on... do your ultrasound at 28 days and see if your girl is pregnant... lets hope she is not. Then start working with your dogs... get into the obedience ring... start showing in UKC.... do rally... not only is it a great bonding time wiht your dogs but it will go a long way to becoming a truly reputable breeder because right now no matter what you say or mean to accomplish you are just another person breeding English/European dogs, swinging off the accomplishments of the pedigree and the work that other people did to title the dogs in the pedigree and not making the dogs prove themselves and whether you like it or not that makes you a backyard breeder.


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## Suni52 (Jan 18, 2012)

I can't offer any advice, but I do know of a very reputable breeder that has 30 yrs of experience that recently (in the last year) had an oops pregnancy on a younger bitch. (I think she had just turned 2 or was approaching 2). It was the first time that ever happened to her. She was showing her dogs and left the bitch and the male with a sitter. I'm not going to name any names, but accidents do happen, even to those with the absolute best intentions, and those with 30+ yrs of experience. I was in touch with her when we were looking for our dog. It didn't impact how I felt about the breeder although in the end I didn't buy from her because an older puppy worked out for us better from someone else. But I was considering one of those pups at a discounted price. 
I hope your dog's pregnancy goes well and the pups are all healthy, if she is indeed pregnant. Hopefully it didn't take:crossfing


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I guess what people are trying to say here is that it seems that the breeders that are considered legitimate are those that started in some venue of competition, then decided to breed. My first golden was a conformation reject due to her laterally luxating patella. Patella was fixed and she got me into showring obedience. My second golden at two years of age had all four clearances, yet I never bred her. It was a good thing because at four years she was unilaterally mildly dysplastic. You don't have to show your dogs in conformation, they could show in obedience, agility, or hunt tests. You could get a CCA. And sometimes dogs of that type do well in parts of Canada in conformation.

I can see who an oops can happen without enough containment. We have no kennels/no chain link here. My two boys are neutered, but if the diapers fall off my in heat girls, they are at them so fast, there is always a tie. I can only imagine how they would be intact. My sister got an ECocker from an oops litter. Male was underage with no clearances. In this situation, it could've been one of three males! I know she paid the full price, regardless.

As far as what people look for in a breeding, I can speak for myself. I am usually drawn to sires with conformation and working titles and a pedigree that I think will complement my girl. The dog must have all four clearances,with the heart cleared by a cardiologist and the CERF current. And obviously, I want a dog with an excellent temperament.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

Shalva said:


> I breed English style dogs and have a lovely cream boy owned by a friend in California who just finished his UKC championship and Intl (not worth much) but the UKC is nice. He will also be getting a CCA. My dogs that live here in NH are English style and we show them in Canada, we also get CCA's on them. We compete in Obedience and Rally and my husband does field work. You are correct about the AKC standard being very difficult for English style dogs but there are other avenues to make your dogs prove themselves.
> 
> Then start working with your dogs... get into the obedience ring... start showing in UKC.... do rally... not only is it a great bonding time wiht your dogs but it will go a long way to becoming a truly reputable breeder because right now no matter what you say or mean to accomplish you are just another person breeding English/European dogs, swinging off the accomplishments of the pedigree and the work that other people did to title the dogs in the pedigree and not making the dogs prove themselves and whether you like it or not that makes you a backyard breeder.


Thank you for the suggestions! We will look into CKC as well


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## Charmie (May 30, 2012)

I'm not a breeder. I don't even have my first golden yet (one more week!). That said...

I firmly believe that everyone can make mistakes. From what it sounds like, your intentions were good, you had as many health clearances as you could have gotten at this time. If everything had gone perfectly, you would have been showing your dogs before the accident... so far, everything looks good!

I'm going to go out on a limb here that will probably receive a LOT of critical opinions... but once upon a time, people went out, got a puppy they thought was cute, came home, fed it okay food, gave it water and trained it without fancy techniques. Things don't always have to be that complicated, and in the end, I believe that everything is going to be okay. My first dog came from an accidental litter, wasn't purebred, from my brother's coworker's dog, fed Purina, etc etc. She's still my baby and I don't love her any less. The mama dog, as far as I'm concerned, received no special treatment and is completely fine. My neighbor's doxies... also accidental. Mom is completely fine. The guy is a professor at a university, in no way a breeder, looked up basic care for his female and everything turned out okay. (I'm not saying that with the resources available you shouldn't always try to do the best for your dog, but there really isn't a need to fret too hard.) 

I don't think you'll have trouble placing the puppies. You are NOT on the same level as a byb... I don't feel that there is any need to act like you are so irresponsible for an accident. I understand that from an experienced breeder's point of view (who, because of experience, knows exactly how things go, how they work, what to do for preventative measures) this could have been easily prevented and you may be missing things in an ideal breeder, but I wouldn't be so harsh. The dog broke through a WINDOW, for goodness sakes. I wouldn't expect a dog to do that. Scale a fence, probably, but not break through a window. 

Anyways, to repeat what others have said, let the families know the truth, learn from this experience.. I personally would still have gotten a puppy from you if you were completely honest. The reason I rejected the first "breeder" is because she made no attempts at screening for health issues and straight up lied to me and said her dogs were companion animals, not show dogs, and didn't need them. The breeder I'm interacting with now is responsible, has all of the health clearances, pretty straightforward lady. The experience in breeding is a large plus- but I wouldn't discount anyone starting out if they had as good intentions as you. Like you said, everyone has to start somewhere.


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

I am not a breeder so have nothing to offer from that point of view. I also wanted to mention that UKC (United Kennel Club) is a venue where you can show your dogs. There were some recent shows in CA and some additional shows coming up. http://www.ukcdogs.com/Upcoming.nsf/EventView?Open&Group=DogEvents&Type=S&State=California

It would be a good idea for you to at least attend one of these shows to get a feel for the event. UKC is a bit more casual than AKC shows and there are plenty of people who will help you along. Do you have a mentor breeder in the area to assist you?

I hope the pregnancy didn't take so you can do a bit more research and determine if you are going down the right road. Most of us here really value our Golden breed and are attempting to safe guard our dogs from the damages that are rampant from eroneous breedings. It seems you may have missed a few steps along the way.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

heartgoldens said:


> I've had goldens all my life and all we're great companions, but I had no interest in breeding them for the sake of it and all were spayed/neutered. We invested quite a bit of time (7 years so far) and money finding the right dogs to breed.


I don't understand.... you say that you've always had Goldens, and seemed to know it was not right to breed them 'just for the sake of it.' But instead you have invested 7 years of your time and energy into researching and acquiring two dogs from Europe and now you feel it is ok to breed them just for the sake of it? Because it doesn't sound like anything is different now except the time zone the dogs were born in.

Do you have a mentor in the Golden Retriever club that you belong to? What does he/she advise on all this? Is she supportive of you having your male for 4 years now and not going any farther with him than a CGC? This is what makes me question how seriously you really have thought all this through. You've spent money on the dogs but you haven't spent time developing them. Why no CCA or WC?

As someone who is looking to bring home a golden puppy from a reputable breeder in the next 12 months, if I were interviewing you, I would really be questioning you on why you haven't done anything to prove how trainable and stable temperament-wise your dogs are. Even if the plan you had in place to 'show' for a year before breeding had happened, it wouldn't have ensured you had any titles to prove your dogs were worthy of reproducing.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

Charmie said:


> I understand that from an experienced breeder's point of view (who, because of experience, knows exactly how things go, how they work, what to do for preventative measures) this could have been easily prevented and you may be missing things in an ideal breeder, but I wouldn't be so harsh. The dog broke through a WINDOW, for goodness sakes. I wouldn't expect a dog to do that. Scale a fence, probably, but not break through a window.


Yeah, I gave my 2 sons a stern talking to when I got home, asking (well...yelling), "Who let the dog in?!?" But then I found the broken window in my daughters room and felt really bad for yelling at them. 

Congrats on your new puppy!!! How exciting!


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Charmie said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here that will probably receive a LOT of critical opinions... but once upon a time, people went out, got a puppy they thought was cute, came home, fed it okay food, gave it water and trained it without fancy techniques. Things don't always have to be that complicated, and in the end, I believe that everything is going to be okay.


So is that how it should be???? people just go to pick a pet and get a cute puppy? 

And now after that wonderful time we have dogs who are dying at younger and younger ages due to cancer. We are adding new health problems and new diseases all the time. We have dogs that can't tolerate a food change and have allergies that are so severe that they can barely function. There are breeds that have really difficult temperaments and ya know what... there are more and more goldens with sharp temperaments. Ya know why?? because people don't clear their dogs, because breeders aren't being careful and having "oops" litters and some are having litters and calling them "oops". I know of several breeders that do that. Because back in the day people weren't careful about the dogs that they bred. Where do you think this all comes from? It comes from people who are not careful stewards of the breed and we are living and dealing with the results of this now.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I would like to ask the original poster a question though. Why did you import dogs of English style that you knew you could not show in the AKC? I am curious about the motivation to do that? What made you do that instead of just getting a couple of American style goldens if the goal was just to be a breeder?


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Charmie said:


> ..... I understand that from an experienced breeder's point of view (who, because of experience, knows exactly how things go, how they work, what to do for preventative measures) this could have been easily prevented and you may be missing things in an ideal breeder, but I wouldn't be so harsh. The dog broke through a WINDOW, for goodness sakes. I wouldn't expect a dog to do that. Scale a fence, probably, but not break through a window.


 
Honestly Charmie, I'm not a breeder either, but I've read enough and talked to enough people to know that an intact male will just about kill himself to get to a female in heat. There are tons of stories out there exactly like this of the lengths they will go to. Any responsible breeder that I've ever spoken to either has a set up like Fort Knox if they keep intact dogs of both sexes or they flat out send the male away for a couple weeks. It just proves the point that she hasn't even done the most basic legwork if she thought her set up (with kids in the house - they are notorious for opening doors they should not) would work. Having the advice of a good mentor might have kept this scenario from occuring.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I'm curious as to why suggestions are being made to spay the female? I can understand advice to abort the litter...although I would never do that or advise it...but I don't see why that should lead to spaying.

In the future, I would crate the female AND the male when your not home. Better yet, send the male to *camp* when she's in heat. A friends house or trainer.


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## Charmie (May 30, 2012)

Shalva said:


> So is that how it should be???? people just go to pick a pet and get a cute puppy?


There is absolutely no need for you to get so harsh and defensive. I stated RIGHT after that sentence that with the resources we have now, we should absolutely be doing as much as we can for our dogs. I was simply pointing out that there's no need to completely freak out because everything will be okay in the end. Just because things didn't go as planned doesn't mean it all goes to hell.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Penny's Mom said:


> I'm curious as to why suggestions are being made to spay the female? I can understand advice to abort the litter...although I would never do that or advise it...but I don't see why that should lead to spaying.
> 
> In the future, I would crate the female AND the male when your not home. Better yet, send the male to *camp* when she's in heat. A friends house or trainer.


I wouldn't spay her... you can't abort puppies without spaying is my understanding... the spay itself aborts the puppies. I personally think that she should get these dogs into a venue of some sort to make them prove themselves before she even considers breeding. It can be the dogs she has I wouldn't spay and neuter them, I would show them and compete with them. 

but that is just me


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think the reason we like hobby breeders and the way I understand the term is that they breed because their hobby is competition and breeding naturally follows. Breeding itself isn't the hobby. The hobby is showing in conformation, obedience, hunt, agility, etc. That's I think where you're getting some of the negative energy from. You seem to have decided to breed as a hobby without having a dog sport to compete in first.

As far as some practical advice, I think it's great that your boy has all his clearances. From your original post, it looks like your girl has only hip prelim. If she truly had excellent prelims, there's a very high chance she'll pass her adult hip clearance when she's old enough for it. As far as elbows, I think you're sort of screwed if she turns out to be pregnant. However, I don't see any reason she couldn't get a heart and an eye clearance ASAP so you'd at least know what to expect and what to tell the buyers of the pups.

You can also start a CCA on your boy to get some frank evaluation of his structure. You're correct that CGC and CCA are really certifications, not titles, but they're both a great place to start for a baseline of temperament and conformation.

You made a big mistake—understandable, but still big—with these dogs. From here on out you need to take all the steps an excellent hobby breeder would if you want to be considered one.

I too am curious about pedigrees! I love to look them over and to try to figure out the strength of the matchup. I'd love to see them if you don't mind posting.


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## Charmie (May 30, 2012)

nolefan said:


> Honestly Charmie, I'm not a breeder either, but I've read enough and talked to enough people to know that an intact male will just about kill himself to get to a female in heat.


I'm way less experienced than you in this matter. I've learned something new today, then! My breeder is literally the first responsible breeder that I've talked to more than a few times, and so yes- totally inexperienced. I still can't believe the lengths a dog will go. Pretty crazy stuff!


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Oh, okay, so it's not like humans then.

And yes, I agree that these puppies should be found homes thru rescue. And that she should continue with her plans to compete.

I wish the mom and pups well. As well as their people!


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Penny's Mom said:


> And yes, I agree that these puppies should be found homes thru rescue.


no not like humans at all... 

If I could just talk about rescue for a minute... My friend is the national flat coat rescue chair... a relatively small breed... and she is on the phone with shelters and other rescues constantly. She is out ID'ing dogs and pulling dogs out of terrible situations. She and I went to a show together and she was on the phone more than she wasn't arranging foster care and the pulling of dogs out of kill shelters more than she wasn't. 

I disagree that rescue should be used in this situation. I think rescue and rescue funds and man power should be used for dogs who are in desperate need. Those who are left behind due to a death or serious illness, those who are abandoned, abused, dumped at shelters. Those that really need "RESCUE". The word really defines the situations in which it should be used, dogs that are in imminent danger. 

I really don't feel that these resources should be used for breeders that screw up. It is the breeders responsibilty to find homes for her pups and not put the weight of those pups on the volunteers who man rescue and not use funds that are needed for dogs who are in dire need of real "rescue". That is not what rescue was intended for. 

just my two cents


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

In response to your question about why I chose English. As a vet tech, I've come into contact with both English & American type goldens. Unfortunately, I saw more than my fair share of congenital defects and cancers in American goldens. Granted, most of those dogs came from less than ideal backgrounds, there is a higher incidence of these issues in our American golden population. While raising service dogs for CCI, a friend of mine had an English golden. I thought she was beautiful, sweet and super mellow. That was my first introduction to English. Up until then, I had only had American goldens. My first was from a rescue and died from AIHA at 6 years of age. Our second came from a breeder in Tahoe who did all the health checks & worked their dogs in search & rescue at the ski resorts, but no conformation titles. Our 3rd golden was an English golden from a show breeder in Texas. After her, I just fell in love with the English type. With each successive dog I've had, I've learned more and more about them and what I thought is ideal in a golden. The first introduced me to the breed, but made me aware of their health problems, the second showed me they we're great at a variety of jobs in addition to being a family member. The third opened my eyes to breed standards and conformation. Granted I still have much love for American goldens, I liked the big blocky heads and more calm laid back temperaments of the English. I also liked that English golden had less incidence of cancer than their 
American counterparts. Why did I get English dogs specifically? Health and temperament were more important to me than getting a conformation title because the AKC recognized a different standard. My dogs breeder also had dogs that were very well rounded, raised in the home, all titled in conformation and she actively hunts with them (although hunting is not my thing). I heard about IABCA and thought that would be a great alternative to AKC. I have done work with my dogs, just not at a competitive level...yet. Why?? Because I haven't benn able to yet. I fully intended on it with our four year old. We we're delayed in accomplishing those goals for other reasons (divorce, moving, remarrying, & having another baby). We have gotten to a point where I was able to revisit my previous goals with my dogs and am taking steps to do so. I really hope our dog isn't pregnant right now, but we'll do whatever we need to do to ensure they are raised in the most ideal environment and have wonderful homes. We will also be entering competitive events very soon and learned there were more avenues than I originally thought. And no, I do not have a golden retriever club mentor, but thought my profession gave me all the resources I needed. But that's something else I learned today  Thanks to everyone all the advice. I appreciate your honesty and candidness.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

heartgoldens said:


> As a vet tech, I've come into contact with both English & American type goldens. Unfortunately, I saw more than my fair share of congenital defects and cancers in American goldens. Granted, most of those dogs came from less than ideal backgrounds, there is a higher incidence of these issues in our American golden population. While raising service dogs for CCI, a friend of mine had an English golden. I thought she was beautiful, sweet and super mellow. That was my first introduction to English. Up until then, I had only had American goldens. My first was from a rescue and died from AIHA at 6 years of age. Our second came from a breeder in Tahoe who did all the health checks & worked their dogs in search & rescue at the ski resorts, but no conformation titles. Our 3rd golden was an English golden from a show breeder in Texas. After her, I just fell in love with the English type. With each successive dog I've had, I've learned more and more about them and what I thought is ideal in a golden. The first introduced me to the breed, but made me aware of their health problems, the second showed me they we're great at a variety of jobs in addition to being a family member. The third opened my eyes to breed standards and conformation. Granted I still have much love for American goldens, I liked the big blocky heads and more calm laid back temperaments of the English. I also liked that English golden had less incidence of cancer than their American counterparts. Why did I get English dogs? Health and temperament were more important to me than getting a conformation title because the AKC recognized a different standard. My dogs breeder also had dogs that were very well rounded, raised in the home, all titled in conformation and she actively hunts with them (although hunting is not my thing). I heard about IABCA and thought that would be a great alternative to AKC. I have done work with my dogs, just not at a competitive level...yet. Why?? Because I haven't yet. I fully intended on it with our four year old. We we're delayed in accomplishing those goals for other reasons (divorce, moving, remarrying, & having another baby). We have gotten to a point where I was able to revisit my previous goals with my dogs and am taking steps to do so. I really hope our dog isn't pregnant right now, but we'll do whatever we need to do to ensure they are raised in the most ideal environment and have wonderful homes.



:doh: Oh goodness...here we go again about english goldens being healthier than american goldens!!! No further comment.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Don't understand the reasoning behind placing the puppies in a rescue. She is fully capable of taking care of them until they are placed.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

heartgoldens said:


> I also liked that English golden had less incidence of cancer than their American counterparts.


FYI - There is no evidence for this claim. Some of the shady breeders of "English" (and I put it in quotes because the dogs are almost never from England) Goldens will repeat it, but they base it on an intentional misreading of an English and American survey done years apart with different criteria. There's been no scientific comparison of the health of English style vs. American style Goldens.

I highly respect it if you prefer the look of English style and the KC standard over American style and the AKC standard. I cannot respect the perpetuation of myths originated by profiteers.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> FYI - There is no evidence for this claim. Some of the shady breeders of "English" (and I put it in quotes because the dogs are almost never from England) Goldens will repeat it, but they base it on an intentional misreading of an English and American survey done years apart with different criteria. There's been no scientific comparison of the health of English style vs. American style Goldens.
> 
> I highly respect it if you prefer the look of English style and the KC standard over American style and the AKC standard. I cannot respect the perpetuation of myths originated by profiteers.


Agree 100%. I would love to see recent proof that "english" are healthier than "american." Or is it just hear say that someone is fooled into believing??!!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

PLEASE join your local golden retriever club, find a responsible breeder to be your mentor, and put off the thoughts of breeding yourself until that mentor thinks you are ready.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

What a shame that you come here for assistance and end up having to defend why you got the Goldens you got is appalling to me. I'm sorry and I hope you've gotten the ideas you need to get thru this.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

kfayard said:


> Agree 100%. I would love to see recent proof that "english" are healthier than "american." Or is it just hear say that someone is fooled into believing??!!


If this is false information, then many people are distributing false information...including veterinarians. Personally, I think there are unhealthy respresentatives of all breeds in all locations of the world. But the numbers of American Goldens with cancer are staggering. Is that not correct?


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## Charmie (May 30, 2012)

kfayard said:


> Agree 100%. I would love to see recent proof that "english" are healthier than "american." Or is it just hear say that someone is fooled into believing??!!


kfayard... I understand that all of us on here are very passionate about golden retrievers. Most of use have a golden from American lines. There are many things that we here, on the forum, believe that also do not have grounds from research as well. A common opinion here is that running with your golden is bad as it forces exercise and is hard on the joints. I'm not saying this is wrong or right- but there is no research for it. Many people say this because they have observed it in their goldens over the years. I respect this experience and I don't believe that research is necessary to know this may be true. In fact, hearing it here has changed my mind about running with my future girl... I intended for her to be a jogging partner, and now I know not to and to wait until she is reliable off leash to go running with her.

Heartgoldens said she/he was a vet tech for 15 years, and that this is what she observed in her experience. Who are we to discount her 15 years? I personally do not believe that English lines are healthier than American lines, but I'm not going to start saying that she is clueless and delusional... she's not. 

Edit- Like Penny's mom, I'm also sorry that you came here looking for advice and ended up having to defend yourself.  Many people did give a lot of valuable advice though!  I wish you the best.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

IMO, if there are puppies the owner needs to sell them on limited registration so that they can be tracked through the history of the breed. She should have them spayed/neutered before they go off to their forever homes so that they can never end up in the situation of being used for breeding purposes by the unscrupulous. She needs to keep in touch with the forever homes and for any reason take those puppies back. Her name as the breeder should be tracked into the history of these dogs. She should not burden rescue with these pups. Rescue has enough unwanted dogs to place.
If she is to be a future responsible breeder she needs to stand behind these pups. 

To the op are you a member of the golden retriever club? Are you involved in any way with your local club? If not why not? 
I do hope that your girl isn't pregnant and if she is that she stays healthy and that all the pups are healthy.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

And hopefully you're still keeping the male separate from your female until her heat cycle is over just in case the initial rendezvous didn't result in pups.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

solinvictus said:


> IMO, if there are puppies the owner needs to sell them on limited registration so that they can be tracked through the history of the breed. She should have them spayed/neutered before they go off to their forever homes so that they can never end up in the situation of being used for breeding purposes by the unscrupulous. She needs to keep in touch with the forever homes and for any reason take those puppies back. Her name as the breeder should be tracked into the history of these dogs. She should not burden rescue with these pups. Rescue has enough unwanted dogs to place.
> If she is to be a future responsible breeder she needs to stand behind these pups.
> 
> To the op are you a member of the golden retriever club? Are you involved in any way with your local club? If not why not?
> I do hope that your girl isn't pregnant and if she is that she stays healthy and that all the pups are healthy.


I have no intention of placing them with rescue. They have enough on their plate. If she is pregnant, we will raise the puppies and place them in "pet only" homes on contract. 

I have not joined a local breed club. We just moved to the area in April. So wasnt quite ready for that yet, but are looking into it.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> And hopefully you're still keeping the male separate from your female until her heat cycle is over just in case the initial rendezvous didn't result in pups.


YES!! One of them is in a crate while the other is out to eat/potty, etc.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

solinvictus said:


> IMO, if there are puppies the owner needs to sell them on limited registration so that they can be tracked through the history of the breed. She should have them spayed/neutered before they go off to their forever homes so that they can never end up in the situation of being used for breeding purposes by the unscrupulous. She needs to keep in touch with the forever homes and for any reason take those puppies back. Her name as the breeder should be tracked into the history of these dogs. She should not burden rescue with these pups. Rescue has enough unwanted dogs to place.
> If she is to be a future responsible breeder she needs to stand behind these pups.
> 
> To the op are you aI member of the golden retriever club? Are you involved in any way with your local club? If not why not?
> I do hope that your girl isn't pregnant and if she is that she stays healthy and that all the pups are healthy.


I agree that there is no reason rescue should have this litter. OP - are you in a position to 
take back dogs you have produced- at any time during their life?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Shalva said:


> I disagree that rescue should be used in this situation. I think rescue and rescue funds and man power should be used for dogs who are in desperate need. Those who are left behind due to a death or serious illness, those who are abandoned, abused, dumped at shelters. Those that really need "RESCUE". The word really defines the situations in which it should be used, dogs that are in imminent danger.
> 
> I really don't feel that these resources should be used for breeders that screw up. It is the breeders responsibilty to find homes for her pups and not put the weight of those pups on the volunteers who man rescue and not use funds that are needed for dogs who are in dire need of real "rescue". That is not what rescue was intended for.
> 
> just my two cents


I thanked this post, but I had to put a comment in too - absolutely 100% agree! It is the responsibility of the breeder to place the puppies in good homes. And I do believe the puppies should be priced LOW. It will be expensive, I'm sure - especially if there are problems and/or the need for an c-section. 

@OP - join a local golden club, make friends with experienced breeders who can definitely give you a hand or help you out if the female is pregnant.... but really get into obedience! And focus on that right now. Forget about breeding right now. Have a backup plan for those times when the girlie goes into heat, or neuter the boy. If you intend to keep the girlie intact, then she needs to go on vacation with one of those experienced breeders who will ensure she does not breed. Or you need to do so with the boyo. Personally speaking, I would spay one or neuter the other. I can't comprehend keeping a breeding pair in my home. :yuck:


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

Pointgold said:


> I agree that there is no reason rescue should have this litter. OP - are you in a position to
> take back dogs you have produced- at any time during their life?


Absolutely! I woudnt have it any other way. I am responsible for bringing them into this world, & if their family cant care for them for ANY reason, I will.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

heartgoldens said:


> If this is false information, then many people are distributing false information...including veterinarians. Personally, I think there are unhealthy respresentatives of all breeds in all locations of the world. But the numbers of American Goldens with cancer are staggering. Is that not correct?


 
Well of course you think American goldens have a higher cancer rate....that is because the majority of goldens in the US are american. So, you ARE going to see them with cancer more....

I just do not want you to be another "english creme" breeder that puts on their website that English is healthier than American. That is such a turn off! Unless you have facts and up-to-date statistics to prove that statement.

I really Do hope the best for you and I hope you get involved soon. You will learn soo much. And it is a ton of fun to do agility, field, and obedience with dogs.  Good-Luck


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Penny's Mom said:


> I'm curious as to why suggestions are being made to spay the female? I can understand advice to abort the litter...although I would never do that or advise it...but I don't see why that should lead to spaying.
> 
> In the future, I would crate the female AND the male when your not home. Better yet, send the male to *camp* when she's in heat. A friends house or trainer.


I won't go into a long discourse but I do agree with other posters that have said you really need to compete in some forum with your dogs, get involved in the competion community, make friends with other enthusiasts and hopefully develop a relationship with an experienced breeder you can ask to mentor you - all that before you breed your dogs.

To answer your question about how to take care of your female, if she is still in heat you need to start right now making sure your male is contained and can't gain access to her. If by luck she is not pregnant, and you allow him to get to her again she will be. The best solution would be to move him off your property until she is out of season. Since he is so obviously, violently intent on gaining access to her, that is how you should handle it every time she goes in heat in the future.

Yes, this was an extreme action he took to reach her, breaking a window, however, he should not be left unsupervised outside - most definitely not left outside unsupervised all day while you are gone. If he will break a window to get to her, he will also dig out of the yard, or go over the fence trying to find her. You could lose him or he could be badly injured in his attempts to get to her. I would wager she is not the only in season female near your home either and you run the risk if he gets out of not only an oops pure bred litter, but completely unwanted mix breed litters. He needs to be well contained with no chance of him getting out of your yard or into where your female is being kept.

I do think the breeders on this board could give you valuable advise for how to ensure she is healthy and well cared for during her pregnancy, it's a shame they are all too busy berating you instead of helping.

My extremely limited experience, and only with two less than healthy rescued females, she needs lots of good nutrition. Hopefully your vet can help you. Do you have a breeder you are working with that could give you advise?


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Charmie said:


> kfayard... I understand that all of us on here are very passionate about golden retrievers. Most of use have a golden from American lines. There are many things that we here, on the forum, believe that also do not have grounds from research as well. A common opinion here is that running with your golden is bad as it forces exercise and is hard on the joints. I'm not saying this is wrong or right- but there is no research for it. Many people say this because they have observed it in their goldens over the years. I respect this experience and I don't believe that research is necessary to know this may be true. In fact, hearing it here has changed my mind about running with my future girl... I intended for her to be a jogging partner, and now I know not to and to wait until she is reliable off leash to go running with her.
> 
> Heartgoldens said she/he was a vet tech for 15 years, and that this is what she observed in her experience. Who are we to discount her 15 years? I personally do not believe that English lines are healthier than American lines, but I'm not going to start saying that she is clueless and delusional... she's not.
> 
> Edit- Like Penny's mom, I'm also sorry that you came here looking for advice and ended up having to defend yourself.  Many people did give a lot of valuable advice though!  I wish you the best.


I am not saying she is clueless or delusional. I have been a vet tech for the past 12 years along with teaching Biology. WIth that I have seen a ton of american goldens and only ONE english golden. That english golden was mine that I adopted from an elderly woman with RA that paid $3000 for the dog. He died before he was 2 years old...most likely SAS and he had severe hip dysplasia.

Given my experience with English, could I say that Americans are healthier than english. I could. But, in no way would I base my experience as to what happens in the population.

I know that americans are not any healthier than english and vice versa.

Everyone has opinions. I think she has received a ton of good comments and this will only make her a better breeder. She may have not asked for it, but it is good advice


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

heartgoldens said:


> If this is false information, then many people are distributing false information...including veterinarians. Personally, I think there are unhealthy respresentatives of all breeds in all locations of the world. But the numbers of American Goldens with cancer are staggering. Is that not correct?


One thing to keep in mind is that there probably is simply more of the American breed in America than the English style, thus there would be a greater number with cancer.
When my rescue Golden had cancer, the oncologist told me the largest number of cancer dogs she sees are Goldens and labs. Hmmn, those also tend to be extremely popular breeds that exist in the average household. It would stand to reason, though not necessarily proven by studies, that you would have a larger number with cancer. This might be the case not only because there are greater numbers in the community but also because the popularity in a breed leads to more unscrupulous breedings of the breed.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

heartgoldens said:


> YES!! One of them is in a crate while the other is out to eat/potty, etc.


I honestly do not believe that crate is sufficient to contain this very determined dog. I have dogs that can easily, and readily, break out of crates for no stronger reason than they just don't want to be in there. This guy has the ultimate incentive to break out.

You need a more concrete solution. As I said I would take him to boarding or to another home until she is out of season.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Shalva said:


> I wouldn't spay her... you can't abort puppies without spaying is my understanding... the spay itself aborts the puppies. I personally think that she should get these dogs into a venue of some sort to make them prove themselves before she even considers breeding. It can be the dogs she has I wouldn't spay and neuter them, I would show them and compete with them.
> 
> but that is just me


Little too late at this point to get into a competition venue with the female since there is most likely a litter on the way. Obviously the male should be in some type of competition, and so should the female after the puppies have gone to new homes.

Alot being discussed, all valid points. However, her original question was how to ensure this young female is as healthy as possible during pregnancy and caring for the litter. Need more input on that question than is being given.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

kfayard said:


> Everyone has opinions. I think she has received a ton of good comments and this will only make her a better breeder. She may have not asked for it, but it is good advice


I did ask for advice. My whole purpose for coming here in the first place was to get a breeder's perspective and advice...to learn. I have plenty of veterinary contacts to get medical info from, but not one of the vets I have worked with has bred dogs personally, they just know of others that do. I can handle the criticism from those who wish to berate me. My perspective is that they have a very limited illustration of who I am and who my dogs are, and to get to know me and my entire situation would take more than a thread on a page. I'll take what I can learn from this and leave behind any unnecessary negativity. Again, I appreciate all the advice and respect everyone's perspective.


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

heartgoldens said:


> I did ask for advice. My whole purpose for coming here in the first place was to get a breeder's perspective and advice...to learn. I have plenty of veterinary contacts to get medical info from, but not one of the vets I have worked with has bred dogs personally, they just know of others that do. I can handle the criticism from those who wish to berate me. My perspective is that they have a very limited illustration of who I am and who my dogs are, and to get to know me and my entire situation would take more than a thread on a page. I'll take what I can learn from this and leave behind any unnecessary negativity. Again, I appreciate all the advice and respect everyone's perspective.


You will find there is not a shortage of impassioned Golden lovers and protectors on this site. Thank-you for taking in a variety of perspectives on this discussion.


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## Wagners Mom2 (Mar 20, 2012)

heartgoldens said:


> I did ask for advice. My whole purpose for coming here in the first place was to get a breeder's perspective and advice...to learn. I have plenty of veterinary contacts to get medical info from, but not one of the vets I have worked with has bred dogs personally, they just know of others that do. I can handle the criticism from those who wish to berate me. My perspective is that they have a very limited illustration of who I am and who my dogs are, and to get to know me and my entire situation would take more than a thread on a page. I'll take what I can learn from this and leave behind any unnecessary negativity. Again, I appreciate all the advice and respect everyone's perspective.


 
I know nothing about breeding, but wanted to say thank you for being open to all of the comments/suggestions and advice being given here. IMO, it shows that you truly want to do the right thing--and although maybe a little late here, I feel sure you'll do all you can to make this an isolated incident and work on prooving your dogs and your knowledge as a future breeder. Good luck to you all. Please do keep us posted.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

mylissyk said:


> Little too late at this point to get into a competition venue with the female since there is most likely a litter on the way. Obviously the male should be in some type of competition, and so should the female after the puppies have gone to new homes.


yeah I meant in the future.... sorry I didnt clarify that


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## Benlora (Sep 25, 2009)

I agree with Mylissky. In my opinion the OP has admitted that a mistake has been made and has simply asked for advice about how to deal with a litter from a young bitch. I do understand and appreciate the strong feelings of breeders who do their best at all times but I know that even the best breeders can also still have mistakes.
I am not a breeder and cannot help at all but I do feel quite sad reading such posts. Also understand that responsible breeders might feel that offering advice condones mistakes or bad breeding practices but there are often genuine people who have made a mistake and just need some advice to help their dog.
It is a difficult subject but I do not see any point in making the OP feel worse than I am sure they are already feeling.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Here is my two cents on the whole thing.... do I think she screwed up ... yeah... do I think she put the cart before the horse you betcha... 

What would I like to see... I do think that the original poster has potential. I think that she has bought into some of the mythology surrounding english/european dogs and needs some education in that area but I do think that if she wanted to she has potential. She seems to want to learn but unfortunately hasn't found the right people to learn from. The reason I asked why she got dogs from the UK was very simple... I think there are people who import dogs they know that they can't show here just simply because they CAN'T show them here it becomes an easy out. "Well I would show them but I can't so that lets me off the hook". That is the reason I asked.... her response to the question (minus the mythology of English dogs being healthier) was very much how I ended up with my dogs... I had been introduced to them through a friend and over time came to appreciate their appearances and structure... that made perfect sense to me. It was not an question meant to be argumentative but rather a sincere question of how did you come to be where you are. What she said did make sense. I am glad that she came here to talk to breeders because honestly I find that many vets over step their boundaries when they start talking about breeding. They understand the medicine but not necessarily the husbandry and often buy into many of the myths about breeds and breeding as is evident here. 

The issue is that this directly affects me... every time someone sneers (and yes my puppies have been sneered at) at my dogs at a show.... every time those debates happen about english/european type on this board .... that is all a direct reflection of the numerous bad breeders that are out there breeding this type of dog so they can line their pockets. So yes, this hits very close to home... go to a show with a cream colored dog and watch the reaction that you get from other exhibitors... luckily at this point many of them know me, but I remember before when I would go to shows with Kaelyn and she was a little cream puppy and how many exhibitors just really made faces at her... i mean who makes nasty faces at a puppy? 

Personally, I would like to see her become a reputable breeder of this style of dogs. We need reputable breeders who show and compete with their dogs to counter all the horrendous bad breeders out there. We need breeders who are competing with their dogs and doing things with their dogs to show folks that yes our English style dogs can do things and are different but correct and not every breeder is a bad breeder. You all have heard me say that a thousand times. Not every breeder of English/European (can I stop typing that please? can we agree that you know what I mean if I just say English? ) style dogs is a bad one. So that is what I would like to see.... whether the original poster is up for the challenge is a whole other story. I hope she is. She is off to a rocky start...


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

As for those who feel that the OP has asked for advise on taking care of a young mother I am sure through all her vet contacts she has been told most believe a young dog is better equipped to carry and raise a litter. So the answer, in my opinion, would be to do the same as you would for any dam. Just my opinion. 
As to the future for this breeder. I think the first thing she needs to understand is that breeding is more an art than a science. And you can study pedigrees for as many years and decades as you like but unless you actually witness the dogs in the various situations you really don't know much. That is why it is important for a breeder to be "involved" with the dogs long before they become actual breeders. Again just my opinion.


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## Nyahsmommy (Jul 23, 2011)

You can still sell the pups but for a reduced price and should be honest and tell them that this was not planned and parents do not have all clearances. I got my Nyah from an oops litter, she is the best dog I ever had and probably ever will have, no health problems, best temperment I have seen in a dog before, etc. It was an honest mistake... you tried to seperate them but at least you took precautions and have half of the clearances.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> We need breeders who are competing with their dogs and doing things with their dogs to show folks that yes our English style dogs can do things


Obedience would be a good place to start too.... I don't see too many english style goldens in obedience. And it's a shame, because if their dogs are as calm and trainable as the breeders brag about, then they would do very well in the obedience ring.

Nobody cares what color coat a UDX dog has, but they absolutely need to have good structure, good temperament, good health, trainability, etc in order to get up through the levels. 

The difference is the owner has to be disciplined and committed to working with their dogs and training, keeping them in shape (keep the weight off!), and so forth... I think that's what it comes down to.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

heartgoldens said:


> If this is false information, then many people are distributing false information...including veterinarians. Personally, I think there are unhealthy respresentatives of all breeds in all locations of the world. But the numbers of American Goldens with cancer are staggering. Is that not correct?


The number of Goldens with cancer in America is quite high. However, there is no study that compares styles or lines of Goldens and their cancer rates.

There's an AKC survey from 1998-1999 that gathered mortality rates and causes that showed a surprisingly high rate of cancer. However, the study was never controlled for diagnosis and reporting rates against other breeds, and it certainly wasn't controlled for comparison against subsets of the same breed. Remember that all "English" Goldens living in the US in 1999 whose owners responded would be part of that dataset. 

The survey did what it was designed to do: provide a snapshot of health issues in the breed so breeders could look for them and improve them. People who don't understand how voluntary surveys work have then twisted that data to suit their own purposes. 

The high rate of certain cancers could be caused by increased risk in the general population of Goldens in the US. It might be due to higher diagnosis rates because Goldens are selected by people who pay for advanced medical care at higher rates than comparable breeds. It might be due to higher reporting rates in the particular AKC survey from owners whose dogs had cancer. 

The study didn't control for those factors because it couldn't and because it didn't need to in order to serve its purpose.

And the question here isn't whether the number of American Goldens with cancer is elevated over similarly-sized breeds. The question is whether there's any data whatsoever that indicates it's higher than English style Goldens.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

heartgoldens said:


> My perspective is that they have a very limited illustration of who I am and who my dogs are, and to get to know me and my entire situation would take more than a thread on a page.


Is there a reason you don't want to share specific info about your dogs? I respect that it's your right to be private if you choose, but like I said earlier, lots of us, myself included, love to peruse pedigrees of healthy, champion-line dogs. I'm always looking to learn more about excellent examples of the English-style and the lines that go into them.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> Is there a reason you don't want to share specific info about your dogs? I respect that it's your right to be private if you choose, but like I said earlier, lots of us, myself included, love to peruse pedigrees of healthy, champion-line dogs. I'm always looking to learn more about excellent examples of the English-style and the lines that go into them.


I do like to maintain my privacy and appreciate that you respect that. That is part of being the wife of a law enforcement officer and daughter of a FBI agent. I've been trained to keep specific information off of the internet and only disclose that info to those who would need it. In this case, that would be the owners of my puppies and people I would be in a working relationship with. I do appreciate the interest and feel comfortable disclosing that my dogs, come out of Xanthos (UK, not US) and Morning Valley (Netherlands) lines. Sansue and v.d. Beerse Hoeve as well. A very large percentage of their lineage is titled and my dogs' sire & dam on both sides are Champions.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

Shalva said:


> The issue is that this directly affects me... every time someone sneers (and yes my puppies have been sneered at) at my dogs at a show.... every time those debates happen about english/european type on this board .... that is all a direct reflection of the numerous bad breeders that are out there breeding this type of dog so they can line their pockets. So yes, this hits very close to home... go to a show with a cream colored dog and watch the reaction that you get from other exhibitors... luckily at this point many of them know me, but I remember before when I would go to shows with Kaelyn and she was a little cream puppy and how many exhibitors just really made faces at her... i mean who makes nasty faces at a puppy?


Just curious, but how have you dealt with the bias against your English goldens? In talking to our trainer, someone did make a snide comment about an English beating their darker golden at a show. Is that comment indicative of how most golden folk feel? Wondering what those in the breed club here think about the English type...guess I'll find out.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

*A rant ...*

Soooo .... Now that numerous folks have debated the different issues involved here ... I'd like to suggest that we all welcome Heartgoldens to GRF. She's obviously put a lot of time and effort into her dogs whether all on here agree with her approach or not.

So, let's stop repeating the lessons and "all just get along.". There were several threads a month or so ago where most of us said we would do that, and I think we ought to do that here. 

> End of rant <


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

I see more opinions than advice. Good luck to the OP in her choices.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Shalva said:


> Here is my two cents on the whole thing.... do I think she screwed up ... yeah... do I think she put the cart before the horse you betcha...
> 
> What would I like to see... I do think that the original poster has potential. I think that she has bought into some of the mythology surrounding english/european dogs and needs some education in that area but I do think that if she wanted to she has potential. She seems to want to learn but unfortunately hasn't found the right people to learn from. The reason I asked why she got dogs from the UK was very simple... I think there are people who import dogs they know that they can't show here just simply because they CAN'T show them here it becomes an easy out. "Well I would show them but I can't so that lets me off the hook". That is the reason I asked.... her response to the question (minus the mythology of English dogs being healthier) was very much how I ended up with my dogs... I had been introduced to them through a friend and over time came to appreciate their appearances and structure... that made perfect sense to me. It was not an question meant to be argumentative but rather a sincere question of how did you come to be where you are. What she said did make sense. I am glad that she came here to talk to breeders because honestly I find that many vets over step their boundaries when they start talking about breeding. They understand the medicine but not necessarily the husbandry and often buy into many of the myths about breeds and breeding as is evident here.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with pretty much all of this. However, I've not seen that sort of vitriol at shows towards those with "English" (cream) style dogs. And if I did, I'd express my opinion about it being horrifically poor sportsmanship! We see guite a bit of winning here with the English/European style of dog. Perhaps because we are in an area where a few "big" breeders who have imported dogs over the years reside and compete. Unfortunately, there are poor sports and simply rude people in nearly every venue, but thankfully they are not the majority.

I absolutely appreciate a GOOD dog, of any style, even if it is not my preference. And I owned an English dog. Imported from Rossbourne Kennels in the UK. He was the quintessential "English cream" type dog. Loved him dearly. I also owned a dog sired by Can. CH. OTCH. Camrose Betimmy Am. UD, Am./Can. OS, a UK import and also a "textbook" representation of that style. My Timmy son? Little, red, and VERY "American".


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

heartgoldens said:


> In response to your question about why I chose English. As a vet tech, I've come into contact with both English & American type goldens. Unfortunately, I saw more than my fair share of congenital defects and cancers in American goldens. Granted, most of those dogs came from less than ideal backgrounds, there is a higher incidence of these issues in our American golden population. While raising service dogs for CCI, a friend of mine had an English golden. I thought she was beautiful, sweet and super mellow. That was my first introduction to English. Up until then, I had only had American goldens. * My first was from a rescue and died from AIHA at 6 years of age.* Our second came from a breeder in Tahoe who did all the health checks & worked their dogs in search & rescue at the ski resorts, but no conformation titles. Our 3rd golden was an English golden from a show breeder in Texas. After her, I just fell in love with the English type. With each successive dog I've had, I've learned more and more about them and what I thought is ideal in a golden. *The first introduced me to the breed, but made me aware of their health problems,* the second showed me they we're great at a variety of jobs in addition to being a family member. The third opened my eyes to breed standards and conformation. Granted I still have much love for American goldens, I liked the big blocky heads and more calm laid back temperaments of the English. I also liked that English golden had less incidence of cancer than their
> American counterparts. Why did I get English dogs specifically? Health and temperament were more important to me than getting a conformation title because the AKC recognized a different standard. My dogs breeder also had dogs that were very well rounded, raised in the home, all titled in conformation and she actively hunts with them (although hunting is not my thing). I heard about IABCA and thought that would be a great alternative to AKC. I have done work with my dogs, just not at a competitive level...yet. Why?? Because I haven't benn able to yet. I fully intended on it with our four year old. We we're delayed in accomplishing those goals for other reasons (divorce, moving, remarrying, & having another baby). We have gotten to a point where I was able to revisit my previous goals with my dogs and am taking steps to do so. I really hope our dog isn't pregnant right now, but we'll do whatever we need to do to ensure they are raised in the most ideal environment and have wonderful homes. We will also be entering competitive events very soon and learned there were more avenues than I originally thought. And no, I do not have a golden retriever club mentor, but thought my profession gave me all the resources I needed. But that's something else I learned today  Thanks to everyone all the advice. I appreciate your honesty and candidness.


AIHA Autoimmune Hemolytic Anemia is not a big problem in Goldens and is frequently caused by a tick borne disease.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

Not sure if anyone is interested, but thought I would update you on this situation. Our girl is indeed pregnant...confirmed by our veterinarian. She didn't think it would be a huge litter, but our x-ray coming up will give me a better idea of what we're looking at. I've already gotten my supplies and whelping box all set up and ready to go. I opted for a dura-whelp. I hope it works as well as the reviews say. I have 4 confirmed homes lined up and a few more possibilities/referrals that I need to screen still. I've bought some books on whelping and evaluating puppies for temperament (Volhard) and structure, although I will have to search out someone in the local club who is experienced to evaluate structure. The DVD by Pat Hastings I got is really informative though and taught me tons! These puppies will get great care/socialization and will be placed in wonderful homes on spay/neuter contracts. I will stand behind these puppies and provide lifetime support to their families.

I wanted to take the time to thank everyone that has opened my eyes to what I was missing and which direction to proceed. I have since volunteered and attended a few events/shows, stewarded at an obedience trial, and started training for conformation and competitive obedience with our boy. Our trainer thinks he will do fairly well. She says he has great bone, a nice topline, good gait & expression. Only criticism is his 2 bottom incisors are a little crooked, he has a tendency to turn his front toes out a smidge and that his color would prevent him from having any success in AKC conformation events. We will be trying out our newfound skills in a couple months at UKC and IABCA shows, since we're dealing with English type...and when our trainer thinks we're up to par, obedience as well. Based on the novice obedience group I stewarded, I think he would do just fine there in the very near future. We will also definitely try for our CCA.

After our girl has recovered from her litter, we will start her training as well. She had her CERF done and will get her final OFA hips/elbows done as soon as she is 2 yrs old. Our vet said her prelims looked great and she did not expect them to change though.

Once again, many thanks to everyone for all the advice I received. It is a blessing to be able to participate in a forum like this where I can learn so much from people who are so passionate about the breed. If anyone else has any helpful suggestions or resources they recommend, please, let me know.

In the meantime, please keep us in your thoughts that our girl will have an uneventful whelping, remain healthy and happy, and so will the puppies.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

Congratulations on your upcoming litter. I will be keeping you in my thoughts and prayers that everything goes well for your girl and her pups. Do you have a due date yet?


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

heartgoldens said:


> Not sure if anyone is interested, but thought I would update you on this situation. Our girl is indeed pregnant...confirmed by our veterinarian. She didn't think it would be a huge litter, but our x-ray coming up will give me a better idea of what we're looking at. I've already gotten my supplies and whelping box all set up and ready to go. I opted for a dura-whelp. I hope it works as well as the reviews say. I have 4 confirmed homes lined up and a few more possibilities/referrals that I need to screen still. I've bought some books on whelping and evaluating puppies for temperament (Volhard) and structure, although I will have to search out someone in the local club who is experienced to evaluate structure. The DVD by Pat Hastings I got is really informative though and taught me tons! These puppies will get great care/socialization and will be placed in wonderful homes on spay/neuter contracts. I will stand behind these puppies and provide lifetime support to their families.
> 
> I wanted to take the time to thank everyone that has opened my eyes to what I was missing and which direction to proceed. I have since volunteered and attended a few events/shows, stewarded at an obedience trial, and started training for conformation and competitive obedience with our boy. Our trainer thinks he will do fairly well. She says he has great bone, a nice topline, good gait & expression. Only criticism is his 2 bottom incisors are a little crooked, he has a tendency to turn his front toes out a smidge and that his color would prevent him from having any success in AKC conformation events. We will be trying out our newfound skills in a couple months at UKC and IABCA shows, since we're dealing with English type...and when our trainer thinks we're up to par, obedience as well. Based on the novice obedience group I stewarded, I think he would do just fine there in the very near future. We will also definitely try for our CCA.
> 
> ...


Now this is what I like to hear... 2 crooked incisors... no big deal.. they will note it in the CCA but not a big deal... a little easty westy should come around when his chest drops and he fills out and gets some spring of rib... in English style dogs that is notoriously late as these dogs mature much later than most american type dogs... some as late as 6 or 7 ... but that should come around. I am glad to hear that you are on the road to doing this right... we need good breeders... just keep up the good work


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*So glad*

I am so glad that you have 4 homes lined up for the puppies, but if anything changes, please contact Golden Retriever Rescue. I'm sure they would have no trouble placing them in wonderful and loving homes.
National Rescue Committee of the Golden Retriever Club of America


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

No to rescue... this is not a rescue... rescue has enough on their hands with dogs who really need to be rescued to not have to deal with breeders who mess up.... It is the OP's responsibility to find homes for the pups... these puppies don't need rescue and rescue should not be involved in this at all.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Thanks for the update, I wondered a couple weeks ago how you all were doing and what ended up being the outcome. So glad to hear it's all coming together, with the puppy preparations as well as the showing. i'll be pulling for a good outcome for your whelping and hope you'll keep us posted.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Sounds like a perfect situation for allowing you to sell some puppies less expensively to folks who otherwise might be able to afford them.

Were this 2 1/2 years ago and I had not yet found my current dog, I'd have sent you a private message inquiring. Same if it were many years from now and my current dog passed away.

There are probably a lot of folks who can't afford typical breeder prices who love the golden retriever breed and are looking for puppies, and would jump all over this at the right price. It looks like you have already placed your puppies, but I'd encourage you to consider placing them with some homes who might otherwise have trouble finding a golden puppy in their price range, if any new openings arise.

Please don't give these dogs to a rescue. A rescue will just charge people big prices for young puppies as though you had done the clearances and stuff. Get the puppies to the people the bourgeois dog breeders and rescues try to lock out of having companion animals. I'm sure you'd make some potential dog owner very happy. I'm a one dog at a time type of guy, so I'm not personally interested, but I am sure there are some folks who are like I was, looking for puppies and feeling discouraged because they can't find a breeder who will sell at a price they can afford or without a bunch of draconian conditions. You could make someone's day- or next 10-12 years!


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> Sounds like a perfect situation for allowing you to sell some puppies less expensively to folks who otherwise might be able to afford them.
> 
> Were this 2 1/2 years ago and I had not yet found my current dog, I'd have sent you a private message inquiring. Same if it were many years from now and my current dog passed away.
> 
> ...


OH here we go again.....


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"I have since volunteered and attended a few events/shows, stewarded at an obedience trial, and started training for conformation and competitive obedience with our boy."

Thanks for the update. I am so glad you have found a starting point on your path to your dreams. 

Even though this is an opps with unfortunate timing I wish your girl a healthy pregnancy and whelping. With good wishes of wonderful healthy pups. 

Sometimes even the best of planning things we weren't prepared for have a way of helping us grow and learn. 

Again lots of good wishes and I hope you will continue to participate in the forum.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Hoping you have an uneventful labor and delivery.. Hope you have some one to call for help. Good luck!


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

Shalva said:


> Now this is what I like to hear... 2 crooked incisors... no big deal.. they will note it in the CCA but not a big deal... a little easty westy should come around when his chest drops and he fills out and gets some spring of rib... in English style dogs that is notoriously late as these dogs mature much later than most american type dogs... some as late as 6 or 7 ... but that should come around. I am glad to hear that you are on the road to doing this right... we need good breeders... just keep up the good work



I have kept him pretty lean because I worry so much about obesity. He could gain some weight and still have great body condition. Do you think this would help with the chest filling out? He has a pretty deep pronounced chest...just not very wide (rib spring). Or is that just something I just need to wait for?

We have no intention on using a rescue's valuable resources, but thanks for your concern. These puppies will all have great homes whether they are with well-screened families or here with us.

Golden999. I do not intend on charging very much for a puppy in this litter due to circumstances, but it would greatly concern me if someone was just out there looking for a cheap purebred dog and I would screen them out. I want families who would be willing to spend the money it takes to feed these dogs top of the line food, wouldn't blink to spend money on pet insurance or veterinary care, or puppy training classes, toys, supplies, & would treat their puppy as a valuable member of the family. You have NO IDEA how many times I have heard folks at the emergency veterinary hospital tell me they wont pay a $500-$2000 veterinary bill & would rather euthanize their dog or bring their dog home to die because they could just go get another 2-3 dogs at that price. My reply to that, is "Yes, you could go get another dog, BUT it wont be THIS dog. How much does THIS dog mean to you & your family?" As far as requirements or stipulations, I have no idea what you are referring to, but these puppies will go to homes on a spay/neuter contract, & to be returned to me in the event that the owner cannot keep them for any reason. Those will be some of my stipulations at a minimum. In a nutshell, yes...a family who is willing to take care of my puppies their entire lifetime at the standard I have cared for my dogs, is what I'm looking for. However, most of those people wouldn't blink an eye to drop $1000 or more on their dog...


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

goldhaven said:


> Congratulations on your upcoming litter. I will be keeping you in my thoughts and prayers that everything goes well for your girl and her pups. Do you have a due date yet?



Since we don't know exactly when she ovulated, we don't have an exact date but have narrowed it down to about the 22nd of Sept...give or take a few days.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

[\QUOTE]Sometimes even the best of planning things we weren't prepared for have a way of helping us grow and learn. 

Again lots of good wishes and I hope you will continue to participate in the forum.[/QUOTE]


I'd say the situation has kicked me in the bum into full gear and propelled me to get out there into the "show world" and learn things I would not have learned about showing, trials, proper structure & how it relates to form & function, etc. There really is a much bigger picture than just the health aspect of things. I am really enjoying all the events, the friends I'm making, and look forward to participating much more!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Your approach and attitude to this is really refreshing. I think we are witnessing the beginning of a very responsible, reputable breeding program. Keep up what you are doing.


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

Heartgoldens,

good luck with your litter...I love your attitude and honesty it is refreshing. we are looking for a puppy and if you were in our area, do to your honesty etc...I would not discount you just because of the circumstances. It appears to me that you really do want to do the right thing...take care and please post pictures....love puppy pictures


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> A rescue will just charge people big prices for young puppies as though you had done the clearances and stuff. Get the puppies to the people the bourgeois dog breeders and rescues try to lock out of having companion animals. I'm sure you'd make some potential dog owner very happy. I'm a one dog at a time type of guy, so I'm not personally interested, but I am sure there are some folks who are like I was, looking for puppies and feeling discouraged because they can't find a breeder who will sell at a price they can afford or without a bunch of draconian conditions.


 
:doh:
simply
:doh:


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

Golden999 said:


> Sounds like a perfect situation for allowing you to sell some puppies less expensively to folks who otherwise might be able to afford them.
> 
> There are probably a lot of folks who can't afford typical breeder prices who love the golden retriever breed and are looking for puppies, and would jump all over this at the right price. It looks like you have already placed your puppies, but I'd encourage you to consider placing them with some homes who might otherwise have trouble finding a golden puppy in their price range, if any new openings arise.
> 
> Please don't give these dogs to a rescue. A rescue will just charge people big prices for young puppies as though you had done the clearances and stuff. Get the puppies to the people the bourgeois dog breeders and rescues try to lock out of having companion animals. I'm sure you'd make some potential dog owner very happy. I'm a one dog at a time type of guy, so I'm not personally interested, but I am sure there are some folks who are like I was, looking for puppies and feeling discouraged because they can't find a breeder who will sell at a price they can afford or without a bunch of draconian conditions. You could make someone's day- or next 10-12 years!



The purchase price of a puppy is the least expensive part of raising a dog. If you can't afford the purchase price, don't look for a cheaper dog. Get a fish.
The amount a person is willing to pay for a puppy usually indicates how much they are willing and able to spend on its care.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

goldhaven said:


> The purchase price of a puppy is the least expensive part of raising a dog. If you can't afford the purchase price, don't look for a cheaper dog. Get a fish.


You know what's incredible about forums? People can say the most offensive things possible, but because they avoid using four-letter words or telling people to anatomically impossible things, they don't get banned. Unfortunately, since I'm not as smooth with words with you, I don't know how to respond in a way that won't get me banned.

But I'm sending a thought ray your way. Guess what it says.  Hint: It's not something nice.

I hope everyone who says something like that and doesn't feel in the least bit sorry one day gets to experience being a low-income person and having elitist snobs trying to tell them what they shouldn't have or do in life.

By the way, I paid $300 for my dog. Had to borrow even that. Had him for years now. He's doing just fine, thank you very much. Goes almost everywhere with me. But I'm sure he'd have been better off with some rich snobby person who's never home and doesn't have time for him.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Golden999 said:


> You know what's incredible about forums? People can say the most offensive things possible, but because they avoid using four-letter words or telling people to anatomically impossible things, they don't get banned. Unfortunately, since I'm not as smooth with words with you, I don't know how to respond in a way that won't get me banned.
> 
> But I'm sending a thought ray your way. Guess what it says. Hint: It's not something nice.
> 
> ...


PERSONALLY, I find it offensive and frustrating for people to constantly suggest that breeders (and the world at large) should lower prices for everyone so that people can just pay what they can. All while calling those who won't lower their prices greedy and elitist. While it would be nice if we all had fairy godmothers who gave us everything we wanted, that's not how life works. Most people work hard for everything that they have, no matter how much "that" is. And most people don't expect the world to just hand them everything they want. That being said, calling people elitist, snobby, greedy, etc is not ONLY a violation of the TOS of this forum, but it's incredibly RUDE. GIVE IT A REST.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> PERSONALLY, I find it offensive and frustrating for people to constantly suggest that breeders (and the world at large) should lower prices for everyone so that people can just pay what they can. All while calling those who won't lower their prices greedy and elitist. While it would be nice if we all had fairy godmothers who gave us everything we wanted, that's not how life works.


If the folks who wouldn't lower their prices were alright with others who choose to offer their puppies at lower prices, I wouldn't say they're elitist or snobby. But when someone says "Go buy a fish" and actively encourages other breeders to only sell high, and thinks breeders who sell low should be banned, yeah, that's elitist and snobby.

See, the difference is between the breeders in the first, largely hypothetical category, who sell high but are alright with lower priced breeders, and the people in the second, who sell high and aren't, is that people in the first category are at least open to there being puppies out there (Albeit not from them in particular) for folks with low to moderate incomes who want dogs to love. The people in the second category basically are saying "Let them eat cake.".



> Most people work hard for everything that they have, no matter how much "that" is. And most people don't expect the world to just hand them everything they want.


You know, the truth is, there's more randomness to life than you might think. Some folks get rich because they inherited the money, or caught a lucky break somewhere along the line. Maybe they were born with the right genes and are smart enough or good enough at certain things that they can put themselves in a good position. Still might take hard work and dedication, but it also takes the right circumstances- and it takes a society that's there to create the system they succeed in. And people can work as hard as possible and get hit with an illness or a bunch of bad luck, or not have the natural tools, and not do real well in life, and it often isn't their fault- and people who are lucky enough to get above that should be willing to give back to the society that helped make them who they are. In short, you didn't build it.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Golden999 said:


> If the folks who wouldn't lower their prices were alright with others who choose to offer their puppies at lower prices, I wouldn't say they're elitist or snobby. But when someone says "Go buy a fish" and actively encourages other breeders to only sell high, and thinks breeders who sell low should be banned, yeah, that's elitist and snobby.
> 
> See, the difference is between the breeders in the first, largely hypothetical category, who sell high but are alright with lower priced breeders, and the people in the second, who sell high and aren't, is that people in the first category are at least open to there being puppies out there for folks with low to moderate incomes who want dogs to love. The people in the second category basically are saying "Let them eat cake.".


At the expense of the breed that we all LOVE??? No thanks. I will never agree that it is ok to add more irresponsibly bred dogs to the world. The shelters and rescues are already full of them (puppies and adult dogs). And if I couldn't afford to get a well bred puppy THAT is where I would be going.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> At the expense of the breed that we all LOVE??? No thanks. I will never agree that it is ok to add more irresponsibly bred dogs to the world. The shelters and rescues are already full of them (puppies and adult dogs). And if I couldn't afford to get a well bred puppy THAT is where I would be going.


Well, at least you didn't say people should go buy a fish. 

I actually used to post to a general dog forum and there were people there who didn't think poor folks should even adopt soon to be euthanized dogs from shelters. Seriously. I told them off with some very salty language and got banned, but they were the ones that were really being offensive. I'm glad you at least don't take it to that extreme. But some people do.

If you look at things in a broad perspective- across time and geographically boundaries, dogs living in America today have it great. I mean, even compared to their wild wolf ancestors, who lived short brutal lives (average life span: 3 years), or our grandparents dogs, who typically lived outdoors in dog houses and ate table scraps, and only went to a vet occasionally if ever (Never mind not getting preventatives and such). There are even a lot of people, past and present, who don't have it as good as a lot of dogs.

I feel like if you can sacrifice and put a roof over a dog's head (i.e. let him live with you), feed him, love him, walk him, get him his vaccinations and preventatives, that's doing pretty good for that dog. It saddens me that some folks feel that's not enough and that poor and middle class folks should go buy fish.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Also, if you feel there are too many dogs in the world for backyard breeders to add more to the population while there are dogs dying at shelters, and that people who can't afford a $2,000 dog should go to the shelters for whatever is there instead, then, logically, you should against purebred dog breeders of all stripes- even the ones with the certifications and testing, who charge the big bucks. According to that logic, _everyone _should be getting their dog from a shelter. I mean, those well-bred dogs are still adding to the population, and there are still dogs in shelters. You shouldn't just be singling out the poor- the logic of what you're saying would indicate to me that you should believe that Richie Mcrich should also be looking at shelter dogs.

Not that I'm against breeders. If I were, I would have gotten some random mutt. I'm just saying, the logic people are using against poor folks getting "backyard breeder" dogs could equally apply against rich folks getting "well bred" dogs.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> Not that I'm against breeders.


 
No you are not, just the ones who do everything possible to better the breed. :no:


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Golden999 said:


> Also, if you feel there are too many dogs in the world for backyard breeders to add more to the population while there are dogs dying at shelters, and that people who can't afford a $2,000 dog should go to the shelters for whatever is there instead, then, logically, you should against purebred dog breeders of all stripes- even the ones with the certifications and testing, who charge the big bucks. According to that logic, _everyone _should be getting their dog from a shelter. I mean, those well-bred dogs are still adding to the population, and there are still dogs in shelters. You shouldn't just be singling out the poor- the logic of what you're saying would indicate to me that you should believe that Richie Mcrich should also be looking at shelter dogs.
> 
> Not that I'm against breeders. If I were, I would have gotten some random mutt. I'm just saying, the logic people are using against poor folks getting "backyard breeder" dogs could equally apply against rich folks getting "well bred" dogs.


Nope, wrong again. In my opinion the only places to get dogs are reputable breeders, shelters or rescues. If you only consider those three sources you have a wide variety of options. The term "random mutt" is awfully rude as well.....and it smacks of a sense of entitlement to whatever one wants (which is a theme in some of these posts I think). Some people just *have to have* a golden puppy and will do whatever it takes to get it...even if they succeed in padding the pockets of irresponsible breeders in order to avoid getting that "random mutt".


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

delete......


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> Get the puppies to the people the bourgeois dog breeders and rescues try to lock out of having companion animals.


This is an utterly obnoxious comment. I have yet to meet a responsible breeder of Golden Retrievers who was trying to lock anybody out of dog ownership. Actually, all the ones that I've known personally have sold their dogs at a loss in order to make sure they end up with responsible, loving families and competition homes.

It's ignorant and insulting to talk about good breeders in this fashion, and I think you're well aware of the fact that you're trolling us with this kind of comment. You got the other thread shut, so now you want to come troll in a new thread. It's childish behavior.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> You know, the truth is, there's more randomness to life than you might think.


This is not about hand up vs. hand out philosophies. It's about the bare minimum to give a dog a shot at a long, healthy life. They deserve that. It doesn't cost a ton of money, but it does cost a little, and the purchase price of the dog, which is what you seem to be obsessing over, is a very small part of the lifetime cost of owning a dog.

But honestly, at this point, I think you're just trolling threads for reactions.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Oops, forgot to take my own advice and accidentally fed the troll for a second there.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

goldhaven said:


> The purchase price of a puppy is the least expensive part of raising a dog. If you can't afford the purchase price, don't look for a cheaper dog. Get a fish.
> *The amount a person is willing to pay for a puppy usually indicates how much they are willing and able to spend on its care*.


I'm just going to slip in here and disagree vehemently with the bolded part (emphasis mine). That is NOT the case. Some people adopt rescue puppies because they want to save a life. The fact that they're paying significantly less than a well-bred purebred puppy certainly does NOT mean they won't be willing or able to spend more money on their puppy's care than those who choose to buy a puppy. 

I bought Ranger for $250 dollars because I wanted a rescue dog (for various reasons). The fact that I paid less for him doesn't mean I will spend less money on his care than if I'd bought a purebred. I find it quite insulting that someone would presume that, actually. That'd be like me saying 'people only buy purebreds so they can brag about their dog's bloodlines.' Obviously not accurate in every case.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Ranger said:


> I'm just going to slip in here and disagree vehemently with the bolded part (emphasis mine). That is NOT the case. Some people adopt rescue puppies because they want to save a life. The fact that they're paying significantly less than a well-bred purebred puppy certainly does NOT mean they won't be willing or able to spend more money on their puppy's care than those who choose to buy a puppy.
> 
> I bought Ranger for $250 dollars because I wanted a rescue dog (for various reasons). The fact that I paid less for him doesn't mean I will spend less money on his care than if I'd bought a purebred. I find it quite insulting that someone would presume that, actually. That'd be like me saying 'people only buy purebreds so they can brag about their dog's bloodlines.' Obviously not accurate in every case.


I don't think she was talking about rescue.... I think the majority here can acknowledge that rescue is a completely different story and rescue is a calling from the heart.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> But honestly, at this point, I think you're just trolling threads for reactions.


You said exacty what I have been thinking for quite some time now....


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

Golden999 said:


> I feel like if you can sacrifice and put a roof over a dog's head (i.e. let him live with you), feed him, love him, walk him, get him his vaccinations and preventatives, that's doing pretty good for that dog. It saddens me that some folks feel that's not enough and that poor and middle class folks should go buy fish.


As the OP of this thread, I'd appreciate it if you took your debate elsewhere. My thread was asking for advice and help from responsible breeders because I found myself in a less than ideal situation. I personally don't feel that responsible breeders are boxing out potential homes from middle class families at all. The purchase price, whether it be $200 or $1200 is minute in scale to the cost of maintaining that pet over the course of its life. 

And if my thread is closed, you are preventing me from getting the advice I was seeking to further your own agenda. 

I think all of us would agree that there are folks out there who would love their dog and give them the basics they would need, even if they were not able to afford a very expensive dog. And all of us would agree that it is more than noble to rescue a dog who would suffer in a shelter. I think the common ground that people have against backyard breeders is that they contribute nothing to improving the breed OR helping animals in rescue. 

It is not necessary for you to call reputable breeders names. They have every right to charge what they think is fair based on their emotional & financial investments as well as their time spent raising & caring for their dogs. 

If you'd like to debate your issue of pricing more, please start your own thread. 
Thank you.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

heartgoldens said:


> As the OP of this thread, I'd appreciate it if you took your debate elsewhere. My thread was asking for advice and help from responsible breeders because I found myself in a less than ideal situation. I personally don't feel that responsible breeders are boxing out potential homes from middle class families at all. The purchase price, whether it be $200 or $1200 is minute in scale to the cost of maintaining that pet over the course of its life.
> 
> And if my thread is closed, you are preventing me from getting the advice I was seeking to further your own agenda.
> 
> ...


 
:appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl:


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Heartgoldens.... Hope everything works out well! Are you in Southern or Northern California? Can't recall if you've said. 

Have you made good contacts at your local GR club? Many experienced breeders will mentor someone starting out. If you had someone close at hand, you might get some great help with the pregnancy and the delivery. From what I've read on here, things can and do go wrong with whelpings, putting mom and babies at risk. A forum is terrific but a real person would be better!

Glad you came bac!


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I really like seeing outcomes like these. When I first saw this post I was like, 'Oh boy, here we go!' but the OP I think is really genuinely trying to get things right. I wish her the best of luck with the mother-to-be and her future endeavors in showing and future-future endeavors in breeding.


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## Suni52 (Jan 18, 2012)

Best of luck on your upcoming litter. I think its safe to say that we all love pictures here and love watching the pups growing up......hint hint, wink wink.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Florabora said:


> I really like seeing outcomes like these. When I first saw this post I was like, 'Oh boy, here we go!' but the OP I think is really genuinely trying to get things right. I wish her the best of luck with the mother-to-be and her future endeavors in showing and future-future endeavors in breeding.


According to SheetsSM this ended up not being true. No final clearances on momma.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Yup, no clearances and momma bred again according to SheetsSM


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And she has a new imported puppy bitch.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

Sally's Mom said:


> According to SheetsSM this ended up not being true. No final clearances on momma.


That is sad. I kinda figured that though…


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Yes it is sad cause BlueBriton knows better and is intentionally choosing not to do the bare minimum clearances. The whole rhetoric on testing & responsible breeding on her website has changed as well. I guess the chance at clearing $1K+ per puppy is too lucrative of an offer to turn down. Just hope her puppy buyers proceed with their eyes open.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

I like how you are following this thread 18 months later, but what you are currently saying isn't true and many assumptions are being made without anyone contacting me directly to ask. What are you referring to about my "rhetoric on responsible breeding has changed?" My website look changed, but it was copied word for word. 

Sophie has had her hip & elbows cleared with FCI and in speaking with other breeders local to me, that is considered final clearances in Europe. So she got her clearances through a scheme other than OFA. Her heart check was done there at 1 year of age as well. I received all of the paperwork/info from her breeder prior to our second litter and it is on her import pedigree. 

I have been very active with my local club, got my CCA on my boy and have taken the advice of other breeders in my area that I respect and have learned a ton from. I'm not out there to make money off of my dogs. If I was, I certainly could have had more litters between our original unplanned litter and now. I have a very good career and don't need to use my dogs to make money. 

I did get a new puppy...from a great breeder. I don't know how that makes me a bad person. We are currently training her in competitive obedience, rally & therapy and cant wait to get titles on her. IF we do end up breeding her in the future, she will have all her clearances as well, not because you guys are expecting it, but because it is what I think is right.

I understand your concern due to love of the breed, but this "eat your own" attitude is sad & disheartening. Anyone who wishes to contact me directly and ask questions before you point fingers are more than welcomed. I have and always will be transparent.

Good Day.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

The GRCA Code of Ethics recommends OFA or Pennhip evaluation of hips and OFA evaluation of elbows. It does appear you live in California and are a member of a local breed club, so I am a bit curious - admittedly - why you wouldn't do the clearances that are recommended by the GRCA COE? At a minimum you know from this thread that clearances are heavily scrutinized on this forum, and although I agree it is sometimes not approached in the kindest way, the intent behind it is good. A thread on here even convinced me to get my dogs Optigen tested for Ichthyiosis and the various PRAs because I know puppy buyers like to have as much information as possible and I want to make the best breeding decisions I can for the benefit of the people who may have puppies from me down the road. 

Unfortunately, the way it is coming across (IMO) is that corners are being cut by not doing OFA hip and elbows. Also, I'm not sure what the "heart check" entailed but pursuant to the GRCA COE it needs to be done by a cardiologist. Why not just get the clearances done? Prove the naysayers wrong


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

I didn't do OFA or Pennhip on this particular dog because my dog already has clearances from her country of origin. In my eyes, a clear dog is a clear dog, whether it be from OFA, BVA, FCI, OVC, Pennhip, etc. Had she not been cleared at all, I certainly would have gotten them done with OFA, as I have done with the sire. In this case, I did not feel the need to be redundant.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

But was the heart clearance from a board certified cardiologist? I made that mistake when my Jack was a puppy and got a "specialist" heart clearance thinking it was sufficient. It's not....the difference between a cardiologist clearance and a specialist or practitioner is like night and day... I ended up getting my Jack's done again properly a short time later.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

The thing I have to ask - or I guess this is my beef after reading stuff elsewhere... I haven't looked into the breeder on this thread, so it may be she's doing stuff differently or she purchased an older dog who got clearances at 2 years old....

When people rely on Penn Hipp or BVA when they are actually here in the US....

To me, it comes across like manipulating the tests so you can be up-and-up without waiting the extra time it takes for a dog to have final clearances from OFA. 

It would be vastly different if the clearances (meaning Penn Hipp and BVA) were done at 2 years, the same time they would have been done with OFA. But in general, it's just all cutting corners and breeding the dogs as soon as possible.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Megora, the GRCA COE permits Pennhip but it has to be done after the dog is 24 months old. And they have to be included in an online approved data base like the OFA database.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I do have to disagree a bit with Megora. While I prefer OFA, there are serious breeders who prefer PennHip. However-and this is a big however-they do their final PennHip on or after 2 years of age.

If I moved to Europe, I would try to accomplish all the clearances I am used to doing in the States. I would probably do hips under both schemes-the one I am used to and the one recommended by my new country.

If I remember correctly, the OP's girl was too young for OFA the first time she was bred, so her European clearances must have been done fairly early. My recommendation would be too redo them, so as to have, in effect, prelims and then a final. And, because that is what the GRCA COE advises. If one wants to fit in and be seen as a responsible and recommended breeder by the players, one follows the rules of the game as they exist where you are.

The Euopean style breeders that I know, who I highly respect and admire, do at least OFA on their dogs. Some do OFA and PennHip, and some do BVA and OFA.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Megora, the GRCA COE permits Pennhip but it has to be done after the dog is 24 months old. And they have to be included in an online approved data base like the OFA database.


I know and - that way, I think it's fine. Other than the fact that you can't do elbows with Penn Hipp and would have to have OFA's done anyway.... 

It just something I was talking about with Bertie's breeder and they basically brushed it off as people wanting to breed the dogs sooner..... and then I was reading a few things from a discussion elsewhere and it did seem apparent that was the case. 

If hips on a 12 month old dog are the same as those of a 24 month old dog, why does the OFA require people to wait until 24 months to get final clearances?


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

Good point goldenjackpuppy! I trusted her breeder when she said her heart was cleared and provided us the paperwork. The veterinarian's name listed for her heart check is different than the veterinarian that provided her health certificate for travel on her export pedigree, but I will have to look into her exact credentials. But a breeder that tests for hips, elbows, and PRA on her breeding dogs is likely to have the correct heart clearance as well. She shows her dogs and just returned from Crufts.

On a recent golden breeders forum, someone asked why European breeders don't routinely have heart clearances. While some still do, most don't because they said they don't have the incidence of SAS that we do here. It hasn't been a big problem there. I thought that was interesting. While PRA1 & PRA2 are issues there, the prcdPRA isnt. Ichthyosis is more prevalent in European lines though, so we will be getting that done next. Not sure if I will use Optigen or PPG for that yet. 

Sophie's parents have had PRA done, so she is clear by parentage. Our boy was seen by a board certified cardiologist. His dam is PRA free, so at best he would be a carrier. 

We don't breed for money. This is my first PLANNED litter and our reason for having this litter is because we had a golden in the family pass away and family wants a puppy from this breeding. I've done my homework. I've spoken with more experienced breeders who know the dogs in my dogs' pedigrees. And granted, there's always more to learn and more to consider (we should never stop learning), I hardly think I'm deserving of the criticism I'm getting here or the assumptions that I'm a money hungry puppy peddler. 

I belong to a few golden retriever breeder groups & forums as a means of learning and exchanging information with one another and although folks are passionate about things and have disagreements on specific topics, I have not seen the same attitude in those forums as I have seen here. "Passion" doesn't excuse rude or demeaning behavior. If you want the golden community to foster what is best for the breed, constructive discussion and open dialogue is the way to go...not an accusatory witch hunt.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

The website verbiage did change as Sophie was to get final clearances (ofa) when she was of age--now her European clearances were "good enough". And from her own post on this forum:


heartgoldens said:


> After our girl has recovered from her litter, we will start her training as well. She had her CERF done and will get her final OFA hips/elbows done as soon as she is 2 yrs old. Our vet said her prelims looked great and she did not expect them to change though.



Sadly, Sophie suffered complications from a c-section with this last litter & has died.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

So sad... 

I can't imagine the stress of going into breeding your female knowing that you might lose her this way. It's not worth it.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Oh no, how terrible! This is the second girl I have heard about today who died after a c-section. It is something you think about as a breeder each time you breed one of your girls. Thankfully it is rare but it does happen. 

Rest in peace, Sophie...........


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

A point- and I don't know if Sophie's section fits this or not- but I will never understand why someone would choose to elect a section just because the bitch is 'due on Sunday' or 'there are too many puppies' or any other reason. It's a major surgery, one that can lead to death. They can react to anesthesia, or throw a clot, and even if you get out with your bitch, you still have to worry about her breasts, since they have been shaved for the surgery and now are open to infection from tiny nails. There's no good reason to elect a section unless you know you have a problem and never should a bitch be spayed at the same time... though seriously doubt that was the case here.

Secondly, it'd be nice if the OP site reflected the truth of her clearances feeling- here's what her site says- and here she says she's ok w/non-US clearances... misleading deliberately-
All breeding dogs are OFA,hips and elbows compliant,with heart and eye certified .


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Per the facebook site, Sophie was having issues with labor. It's one thing if the breeding was from proven dogs and was improving on the breed--I am thankful for the reputable breeders that are willing to take the risk (mitigating where they can); but to put the family pet through the risk of pregnancy is just incomprehensible to me. What an all around sad lesson to be learned.

As for the clearances, all of her listings such as "freedoglistings" cite: "OFA hip/elbow, cardiac, CERF clear" so another breeder knowing how to talk the talk but refusing to walk the walk--just hope puppy buyers slow down & take the time to get educated.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

SheetsSM

You can't leave well enough alone. My family has been through enough these past two weeks with the loss of our dog. The last thing I need is to get another email update about this post. 

I explained my situation...how I CHANGED MY MIND after being informed by another breeder that FCI clearances & BVA clearances are considered final clearances. Had my dog never had any clearances, I certainly would have had OFA done. 

Don't you think the energy spent on trying to point out how horrible I am might be better spent saving puppies from puppy mills and breeders who truly haphazardly breed without ANY clearances whatsoever? You, however are fixated on discrediting me. You follow my website, search & quote from a isting I made over a year ago on a site I forgot even existed. All this energy spent on your behalf of what, so you can seem like you're the bigger person? 

I'm not misleading anyone. I am honest & straightforward, provide copies of the clearances I have. I do not tell people that Sophie had OFA when she didn't. I show them the proof of her clearances. I encourage them to seek out information & educate themselves. 

If you want to beat a dead horse & criticize me for one minute detail, so be it. I could care less. I can sleep at night with the decisions I've made. Those decisions have not harmed the breed in any way, shape, or form. All of my puppies from our previous litter are doing very well in their homes and making their families very happy. Yes, I've kept in touch with every single one of them...even had a 1 year reunion. One of our puppies impressed a service dog organization and they're considering using our stud. How horrible for the breed!

People who know me, have met me, have seen my dogs, who participate in club events with me...they are the ones I take advice from & care about. I am always open to learning from the amazing breeders I've come to know & trust. These are people who had the decency to offer condolences, offer advice & help how to raise an orphaned litter of six. I have zero respect for someone who sits behind their computer and bullies someone else without even taking the time to speak to them directly and get all the facts about the situation...& continues to do so in the wake of a great loss in their family. Shame on you.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

Prism Goldens said:


> A point- and I don't know if Sophie's section fits this or not- but I will never understand why someone would choose to elect a section just because the bitch is 'due on Sunday' or 'there are too many puppies' or any other reason. It's a major surgery, one that can lead to death. They can react to anesthesia, or throw a clot, and even if you get out with your bitch, you still have to worry about her breasts, since they have been shaved for the surgery and now are open to infection from tiny nails. There's no good reason to elect a section unless you know you have a problem and never should a bitch be spayed at the same time... though seriously doubt that was the case here.
> 
> Secondly, it'd be nice if the OP site reflected the truth of her clearances feeling- here's what her site says- and here she says she's ok w/non-US clearances... misleading deliberately-
> All breeding dogs are OFA,hips and elbows compliant,with heart and eye certified .


Sophie did not have an elective section. She had a GDV on the day she was due & had to have an emergent GDV repair, c-section & gastropexy. 

And yes, currently...my only dog of breeding age has all of his clearances, through OFA. So the information on my site is correct.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

heartgoldens said:


> Sophie did not have an elective section. She had a GDV on the day she was due & had to have an emergent GDV repair, c-section & gastropexy.


I can't imagine losing your girl and raising those sweet puppies. You must be completely overwhelmed. I'm thinking of you and sending some good vibes your way. 

This is just so sad, I'm so sorry.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm so sorry for the loss of Sophie. Rest in peace, sweet girl..... I hope the puppies are doing well.


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## jealous1 (Dec 7, 2007)

Prayers for Sophie's puppies and you. May caring for them bring you comfort for your loss of Sophie.


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## abradshaw71 (Jan 13, 2014)

So sorry for this sudden and horrible loss. Much luck to you on your orphaned litter of six. Hope they are growing and thriving. I'm sure you're giving them great care. Take care.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

I'm so sorry you lost your Sophie--how awful. Best wishes to her puppies and to you.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

So sorry to hear of the loss of your Sophie. I hope the surviving puppies do well.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> Sadly, Sophie suffered complications from a c-section with this last litter & has died.




Again, you make assumptions. You post info as if it were fact, when indeed it is only part of the story. You could have easily asked me what happened, but you didn't. 

Her complications were not from a c-section. Her complications were from the GDV, she happened to also require a c-section concurrently since she due and was in shock. 

Her death resulted from complications due to lack of perfusion to her gut. Despite days in ICU, blood transfusions, fluid therapy, etc., we lost her. 

So you will not need to worry about me breeding a dog with FCI clearances any longer. Pat yourself on the back & go on your merry way.


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks to you all for your well wishes for the puppies. The silver lining of this dark cloud is that they are doing very well & thriving. I am concerned about what they will miss out on without their mom here to raise them, like "learning to be dogs," but thankfully I have the support of some great people out here who may lend a helping hand with an experienced momma dog who will play with them when they are a little older and give them that gentle corrective guidance.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

So very sorry for your loss. Best wishes going to you and the puppies! I cannot imagine how difficult this must be.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I am so very sorry you lost your Sophie - such an unexpected and tragic loss. Good luck with the puppies - sometimes a local breeder has a dam who can help with the raising of the pups and teaching them what they need to know. I know several people who had to have their pups wet nursed after the loss or illness of the mother.


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## MaureenM (Sep 20, 2011)

Many heartfelt thoughts for you and your family, and those babies. I'm so sorry for your loss.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

I am so sorry for your loss of Sophie, my thoughts are with you. 

Wishing you all the best with the pups.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

duplicate post


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