# Golden lying down / slouching on cast



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Hi,

I have been really happy with my Golden. He is just shy of two years and we have completed the JH, WCI and HRC Started tests.

We have been working on force to pile, stop to pile, 5 handed casting etc.

Here is the issue and perhaps I could get a bit of guidance.

When he running around in the field and when I give a single toot on the whistle he will sit properly facing me, straight up.

But.. when I am stopping him to a pile or when we are doing 5 handed casts and he goes to the wrong pile, he stops and turns around and then lies down or slouches. 

Driving me crazy.

I tried calling him in and immediately stopping him in the hopes that he would sit up but he just lies down. After calling him in a few times I usually get a sloppy / slouching sit.

Then I had the idea that every time is slouches on a stop to walk out and lift him into the proper sit position and then cast him.

All that is happening is I am getting great exercise.

Besides this no issues.
He runs hard to the pile, and takes a cast well.

It's just the stop / sit while doing these drills.

No issues any other time stopping and sitting properly.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Alex


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

He thinks he’s being corrected, especially when you walk out to him. Pile work and casting drills can get monotonous for a dog. You need to keep it positive. Watch the tone of your voice with any verbal casts as well as how loud you blow the whistle. The dog needs to know he’s doing a good thing when he stops on the whistle and not think he is being corrected.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

ok I like to think I have been super positive but I will amp it up.

When he stops and turns around and slouches what do I do?

Just cast him as he is?
Sit him up?


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> When he stops and turns around and slouches what do I do?
> 
> Just cast him as he is?
> Sit him up?


I would just cast him. He should catch on and start at anticipating the next cast rather than think he’s being corrected.
Some dogs are just very sensitive about voice, whistle, being stopped. It is a sign of intelligence IMO


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

OK I will give it a try.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

You can also stop him less frequently going to the pile and stop him occasionally on the return. He will very likely sit square and proper. 
If you have not done disciplined casting yet, it will probably help as well.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

What is this disciplined casting?

I may have done it just not sure what the term means. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> What is this disciplined casting?


Casting the dog after picking up the bird or bumper. It is very effective for getting a dog more comfotable taking casts. They have the reward already and only have to think about the cat you give them.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Casting the dog where?

Let’s say you have a back pile and you cast your dog to the back, they pick up the bird, they are on their way back, where would you cast them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> Casting the dog where?
> 
> Let’s say you have a back pile and you cast your dog to the back, they pick up the bird, they are on their way back, where would you cast them?
> 
> ...


Back again, right , left, just so the pup takes the cast. Try it with just one bumper out first. He might catch on immediately or it may take a few lessons. Just make it as simple as possible to start.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

OK I have not seen that drill before.

Just to confirm.

I have a back pile.

I send the dog to the back pile.

He picks up a bird.

On the way back I stop him.

I send him left or right even though there are no birds or bumpers there.

He runs a bit.

I stop him.

I called him in. 

is that right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Yes, just casting when he already has a bumper. First do what is easiest for him. That may mean just one bumper out or he may be more comfortable with piles, stakes....
He will probably catch on quickly and be happy to go where sent with the bumper in his possession. Start simple, keep it short and ensure success.
It is good prep for swim by.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Hi

Just a quick update and asking for a bit more advice.

So we finished five handed casting and while he’s not perfect I think we need to move on as he is getting bored.

I’ll keep doing that as part of his day-to-day drills but I want to introduce something new.

So we started single T this afternoon. 

Just a short session and I noticed a few things.

First I had no issues sending him to the back pile until I stopped him and cast him to the right bumper.

After that he got fixated on looking at the right bumper instead of focusing on the back pile. It took a bit of doing to get his focus off the right over pile back onto the back pile.

Any suggestions?

When I stopped him and cast him to the left over pile (first time) he went to the right pile. I stopped him and cast him to the left and again he went to the right. I stopped him again moved closer and then cast him to the left and this time he was successful. 

Did I handle this the right way?

As for the lying down on whistle I’ve noticed this behavior. The first time I stop him he is sitting up, but if he goes the wrong way and I stop him again, on the second and subsequent stops he lies down.

I think I’m going to leave that for now and hopefully with more confidence that resolves itself.

Appreciate the advice.

Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Sounds like you handled it well. Simplify and repeat usually the best approach.
As you have seen in your pup, dogs don't think the way we often assume they should, We think that once the cast to the right pile is learned, the left cast should easy. It isn't, it might even be more difficult. 

I think it's good to work on one cast at a time in short sessions at first. A training place near water is great, you can break up the lesson with simple water retrieves to keep the pup cool and happy.

The laying down is probably a sign of stress. Not a bad thing, you will know progress is being made as he does it less.

Remember that you are working toward literal casting, it takes a lot of time and repetition to get there.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Good day

I have been doing mini T and five handed casting. 

He has been pretty good so I wanted to move on.

I may have gone a bridge too far but I set up a couple of very short land blinds, under 20 m. 

He was all over the place.

He stopped fine but if I cast him right he went left, if I cast him left he did a diagonal right.

I thought transitioning from the mini T to a land blind would go a bit more smoothly.

Did I miss a step?

Thanks

Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Apparently
Don't worry about it, just simplify and keep at it.

By "mini T" I am guessing you mean short distances to the piles?
Try stretching them out gradually to 100 - 200 yards. When he is doing that well. start disciplined casting. Stop him on the return with a bumper in mouth and cast him back and over. This will get him used to taking the cast you give rather than worrying about getting the bumper because he has it already. Keep the lessons fun and not to long especially when it's hot.
Always simplify and teach if he has trouble. 

You can and probably should revisit force to pile as well. Don't overdo it and don't force on casts yet, sounds like more teaching is needed. You never want to correct on casting until you are positive the dog knows what he is supposed to do.
I want a pup to think being stopped and cast a different direction is a great thing and will always guide him to a reward.

Another thing you can do to introduce binds is toss a bird or bumper a short distance while the dog watches. Then walk the dog away at heel, try 20 yards first. Then stop and line him up properly, cue him for a blind retrieve "dead bird" and send.


----------



## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Way less experienced than SRW, but you get what you pay for.

My interpretation would be that he isn't fully realizing that a hand motion is connected to a particular direction, especially when taken out of the context of the location where you did the T training. He may be a little bit panicked or stressed and simply moving without thinking about a direction.

I'd simplify, reduce the stress, and try to help him learn to generalize. By "generalize", I mean get him to understand that even if you are in a different location with a different background, etc., the cast means the same thing. 

I like to do a lot of paired cast discrimination exercises, with most sessions very short, very low stress. In summer, you might spend a few minutes before work if you have a big enough yard or a convenient park or playfield close by. Take 4 bumpers. With the dog watching, toss 2 bumpers to pile A and 2 bumpers to pile B. Go to a send location at a distance you think he's ready for, say 30 yards if you think he's stressed; further as he gets more proficient. Line him from your side to one pile and then the other pile. Assuming he successfully goes to the correct pile both times. toss a fun bumper and tell him how incredibly smart he is.

Next, have him sit at the same location you sent him from, but this time, he won't be facing the piles. Walk some distance away (a few steps initially, much further as you both become more confident). Give a short "sit" whistle. Cast to one of the piles. Choose which pile to cast to by some random method so you don't unintentionally tend to go clockwise or counterclockwise all the time. (I look at my digital watch as I walk to where I will cast from. If the minute is an even number, I cast to whichever pile is the right-most pile; if odd, the left-most pile is first.)

Initially, set up your piles so the casts are easy for the dog to discriminate, e.g., have one be a left back and the other a right over. If the dog goes to the wrong pile, no big deal. I do a lot of this in my yard and, in the interest of getting to work on time, don't bother with a collar, even a buckle collar. I just say "no" calmly, "let's try again", reset and recast. If he goes to the correct one, Hurray! Fun bumper. Then do the second, toss a few bumpers or do something fun like a hand-thrown double or triple, then quit. 

As he gets better at taking the correct casts, work towards pairing close casts; Right over vs Right Angle back, etc. Mix up locations and backgrounds. Send him on casts through a gap between trees or up porch steps or across a ditch or up a hill. Keep it fun, mix up the cast work with marking exercises. 

Once he understands the casts, you need to take him through a transition period in which he will sort of know there is something out there, but you won't be sending on a true cold blind, for example you might do walk around blinds.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Another thing to be conscious of is your casts. Are they consistent and clear to the dog? Stand in front of the mirror and watch yourself make casts.
When your dog is running you should have whistle in mouth an your hands held as it you are praying. Only move one arm to cast, during the teaching phase you may need to exaggerate, walk in the direction of the cast. As the dog advances you minimize the movement, and give vocal commands less and only in certain circumstances.
The goal is "literal casting", if I raise my right arm up at at 10 degrees off vertical I expect the dog to change course 10 degrees right. Obviously this takes time to achieve and it cannot be rushed. The saying is "If you're having trouble with land blinds, run a few hundred more of them". 
With a young dog enthusiasm is more important than precision.


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

I'm less experienced then anyone answering this thread, but here's the tip that has helped me the most. SLOW DOWN..... When you cast whistle and have the dog sit, then I do a four count before I cast. So it's whistle, 1, 2, 3, 4, cast. I think I was always afraid the dog would stop watching, but in fact the slower I am the more he takes my casts. I think it gives the dog time to think about what your asking of them and make the right decision. 

The only other thing I can say is that during training, when my dog stops and turns immediately on a whistle, if he looks stressed I will give verbal praise. For me it's just a "good" to let him know he's doing what I want. I want him as confident as possible in the fact that he's taking my casts and I'm happy with him. This is easy to do when starting because the distance isn't that far. My boy has a tendency to want to hunt once he's further away from me, or he thinks he's smarter then I am, so I work on sits and casting a lot. He just turned two.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

The distance between bumper piles is approximately 50 m.

We do our training on various soccer fields.

Should I be swapping out orange pumpers?

Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> The distance between bumper piles is approximately 50 m.
> 
> We do our training on various soccer fields.
> 
> ...


Yes to the orange bumpers, would just start using both white and orange. 
You can work on more distance with just single piles, no way to make a mistake, just get used to running longer distances. 
Good advice from Dbltrbl, slow down and also vary your timing on casts, so the pup has to watch you. Sometimes a dog gets used to your cadence and starts anticipating the next cast. If retrievers do one thing universally well, it is anticipating your next move. 
Stopping a dog and pausing before casting is called "sweating". It forces the pup to focus on you and clears his head of what he wanted to do. 
Keep in mind also, when you get to big all age blinds of 400 plus yards, *your dog has to find you* each time you stop him.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Thanks for the feedback.

I forgot one more trait my dog is exhibiting.

Periodically I don’t know if he’s getting bored but after I stop him he won’t look at me.

I think he’s avoiding looking at me.

I bought a squeaky toy along with me that I squeeze which makes it sound which forces them to look at me before a cast.

Any suggestions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

I would not use the toy. You want him looking at you for instruction not curiosity. 
Just give another whistle or possibly call him in a few feet an stop him. You want him sitting square and facing you. 
This is a good thing to work on separately, maybe when taking him for a walk. Let him run around and have fun and occasional give a whistle for sit and make him do it correctly.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Ok

Just for me to be clear 

When we are in the park and he’s running around and I stop them he stops facing me looking at me. 

The eye avoidance only occurs during the lining drills. 

I actually thought this part of the training progression would be the easiest. 

He’s been super easy to train to this point

Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> The eye avoidance only occurs during the lining drills.


Is he looking in anticipation of where he thinks he will be sent of does he appear nervous and avoiding eye contact?


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

OK so here’s a summary of our training this evening.

I did a suggested and did a couple of casting drills to individual positions.

I put two bumpers out all the left angle back and cast him twice. No problems. Distance between him and the bumpers was about 50m and between him and me about 30 m. 

I did the same for the right angle back. 

Then I put out four bumpers and cast him back. Two left back and two right back. The distance to the back pile was about 100 m. No issues.

Then I set out two bumpers at each locations for five handed casting.

This is where the not looking at me started. I would place him facing me and go back out 10 to 15 m. Then cast them to one of the locations. He avoided eye contact most of the time.

He had issues figure out was is an angle back or an over. What I did when he got off track was stop him and cast him to the right pile. Then I replaced the bumper and somewhere through the sequence I did it again until he got it right.

Then I set up a mini T with the back pile about 100 m and the over piles about 30 m.

No issues going to the back pile. No real issues going to the over pile. But if he had stopped slowly and gone past the line to the over pile I would call him in. At this point he would take a few steps slow down take a few steps slow down anticipating me stopping him and casting him.

No slouching with the first or last drill. 

Suggestions?

Thanks 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> He had issues figure out was is an angle back or an over.


That can be a much bigger concept for a dog than you might think. 
Great that he got it right. I would probably have quit there, at last for an hour or two.


acolic said:


> No issues going to the back pile. No real issues going to the over pile. But if he had stopped slowly and gone past the line to the over pile I would call him in. At this point he would take a few steps slow down take a few steps slow down anticipating me stopping him and casting him.
> 
> No slouching with the first or last drill.


Sounds like a productive day.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

OK here’s the latest status.

I was working on five handed casting and mini T at a soccer field.

The distance for the mini T was from myself to the intersection 40 m and then another 30 m to the back pile. The cross piles were about 25 from the intersection point.

A common error was going to the over pile not the angle pile when cast on an angle. I stopped him and gave the angle cast again.

The other issue was as the bumpers were being picked up at the back pile it became harder to see that pile. He would then leave my side and run to one of the angle back piles which were easier to see. 

This morning we went to a baseball field and I actually did 5 handed casting on a baseball field. 

Distance from me to the back pile was 40 m. Distance from me to the pitchers mound was around 25 m. And each side pile was 15 m from the intersection point.

Almost no issues.

Questions.

If he does not take a cast correctly and is moving to the wrong pile, my stopping him and recasting him to the correct pile is correct?

Any suggested drills to make him more confident to go from me to the back pile when the back pile is less visible?

Obviously we’re just learning casting. What is the right distance of a mini T. What should I be aiming for? 

If he does not stop and sit correctly facing me I call him in and stop him again. Correct?

No slouching which was a big deal.

Appreciate the help. 

Alex


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> If he does not take a cast correctly and is moving to the wrong pile, my stopping him and recasting him to the correct pile is correct?


Yes and maybe a "no-no" if he does it a second time. No more correction than that. Simplify if needed.


acolic said:


> Any suggested drills to make him more confident to go from me to the back pile when the back pile is less visible?


Put out only one pile with a mix of orange and white bumpers. Ideally large white and smaller orange, or in a little cover. After a couple days use only orange. When he is doing it well plant the bumpers in the same place the next day without letting him see you and send him on a "cold blind". First time use a white bumper in just enough cover that he can't see it from the line. Next you can add your side piles starting with them a good distance from the center line.


acolic said:


> Obviously we’re just learning casting. What is the right distance of a mini T. What should I be aiming for?


For T work I usually have the long pile at about 100 yards. Keep the over piles at least 25-30yards off the center line.


acolic said:


> If he does not stop and sit correctly facing me I call him in and stop him again. Correct?


Yes, whistle toot toot toot softly with my arms low and opening and closing my hands. In time you will be able to use just your hands.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

OK so here we are.

We have been doing ‘T’ work at a distance of 70 yards.

If I have a back and over piles no issues. 

If I have a back and angle back piles no issues. 

If I have a back, over piles and angle back piles we have issues. He generally wants to go to the over not the angle back pile. 

So I am focusing on just back an angle piles for now. 

I have also set up two memory/ pattern piles. Distance to each is about 110 yards. With orange bumpers at both points no issues running straight and retrieving. I am going to add a third pile this week 

So this morning we went out and did some water work and he did three perfect retrieves in water distance approximately 100 yards. 

Feeling positive I decided to try a short simple blind by land or water. Distance about 20 yards. 

By water was a disaster. He did not take any cast properly. A back became an over etc. Not sure what was going on but I should not have done a water blind. I know that. 

The ones by land were not much of an issue but even though he was lined up properly he did not run straight 

I also did force to pile at distance of 100 yards. No issues. 

So obviously I need to do more work on land casting and continue with the ‘T’ work and pattern blinds.

My question is, after you have done pattern blinds and T work to a satisfactory degree how do you actually transition to a short land blind?

Is there another step?

Thanks

Alex


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> If I have a back, over piles and angle back piles we have issues. He generally wants to go to the over not the angle back pile.
> 
> So I am focusing on just back an angle piles for now.


Good plan.


acolic said:


> My question is, after you have done pattern blinds and T work to a satisfactory degree how do you actually transition to a short land blind?


Have you done any wagon wheel drills?

I would hold off on any water blinds until after swim by is completed.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Hi

We have done 4 bumper waggon wheels at a distance of a throw from the center. I was thinking of going to 8 bumper wagon wheels to be a bit more precise. And maybe switching some of the white bumpers out for orange ones. 

Alex 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> Hi
> 
> We have done 4 bumper waggon wheels at a distance of a throw from the center. I was thinking of going to 8 bumper wagon wheels to be a bit more precise. And maybe switching some of the white bumpers out for orange ones.
> 
> ...


Yes, start with all white and progress to orange and white alternating, then place the orange ones farther out, then with just enough cover to hide them. Getting your pup past the white bumpers to an unseen orange bumpert is a big step. Follow your pup out if needed, simplify if he struggles.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

I have also noticed that everything I have read about mini T and full T is all about back and over casts. 

No inclusion of angle back. So I’m going to remove that from these drills to simplify.

So after the single and double T is done after pattern blinds is done after wagon wheel is done is that the point I start cold land blinds?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> So after the single and double T is done after pattern blinds is done after wagon wheel is done is that the point I start cold land blinds?


I would, don't expect or worry about precision. You want enthusiasm and momentum and to maintain both. Precision follows, sometimes slowly.

Do your angle backs after T work is good too. One good drill is a strait back pile, a pile far right for a 45 degree cast and a pile half way between. The next day work on the left side. Don't expect the left side to be easy just because a dog did well with right casts, dogs don't think that way.

You may have already mentioned it, have you worked on left and right back casts?


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Hi

I have done left / right back casts but he’s not perfect. He favors rotating to his left side. 

I was thinking of lining him facing me and with a fence to his left side and just doing a force to pile with all Left Back casts. 

The fence should keep him from rotating to his left side. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> I have done left / right back casts but he’s not perfect. He favors rotating to his left side.


Most dogs are right or left sided. Does he turn left on a whistle sit also?



acolic said:


> I was thinking of lining him facing me and with a fence to his left side and just doing a force to pile with all Left Back casts.
> 
> The fence should keep him from rotating to his left side.


I have done the same, a good way to teach. It can also help teach the straight back cast if you make the pup turn toward the fence.
I also do it in the house, sending a pup to his food bowl with right and left back casts.


----------



## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

There is big step between "yard work" (teaching the casts and the whistle stop) and doing cold blinds. The in-between is the transition phase. 

There are many exercises that help a dog make the HUGE leap from going to a known location to a completely unknown location. 

Danny Farmer's introduction to cold blinds is very popular: https://www.dannyfarmer.com/dannyfa...iles/Starting Cold Blinds by Danny Farmer.pdf

I haven't done that exact method because I don't have easy access to a big short-mowed grass field. 

Another exercise for a dog in transition is a "walk-around blind". Walk with the dog in a big circle in a field with few or no factors. At two or three points in the circle, drop a white bumper while the dog is watching. I point to the bumper and say in a happy voice "Dead bird!" (Probably totally unnecessary.) Never walk straight out to a blind or you will unintentionally teach your dog to follow your trail to the blind.

Use white bumpers so if the dog gets anywhere close, he can see the bumper but you don't want him to see the bumper from the line. When you finish your circle, the dog will know there are bumpers out there, but probably won't know exactly where they are. If he does remember and lines them, that's okay. You can do walk-around blinds at longer distances and in more complex terrain as he gets the idea. As in Danny Farmer's method, when you first start, don't worry about whether he takes the correct cast. You want him to stop and go. 

Another little exercise: Walk out with the dog at the start of a training session and drop a bumper with him watching. Point to it and say "Dead bird!" in a happy voice. Go to your line. (Take an indirect path between bumper and line.) Toss a hand-thrown double or, if you have a winger or a helper, a long single. By the time he does the marks, he will likely have forgotten exactly where the dead bird was. Line him up and send him. 

Eventually, he will make the mental leap to understanding that, even if you don't show him the dead bird in advance, he will trust that it is there somewhere and you will help him to get to it.


----------



## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

A couple of other comments.

As you are doing your yard work, think about and practice what will become your routine when you run blinds. Your dog needs a set of cues to let him know he his going to be sent on a blind and help him go in the right direction. Going through the same sequence of cues every time will help in training and even more in tests when adrenaline is running high for both you and your dog. It will help both of you calm down. Most novices handlers send too fast from the line in a test. Think of yourself as a sniper, not a cowboy action shooter. You won’t be taking 10 minutes to set up, but you shouldn’t step on the mat, and immediately bark “Dead bird- Back!”, either.

I am hardly an expert. I borrowed most of my routine from someone who posted on the RTF, but now I can’t remember who it was, or I’d link. I step up the line saying “We’ve got a dead bird to pick up”. Dog should sit in heel position with shoulder and ear more or less at the seam of your pants. If he is too far forward, he won’t be able to see your cues in his peripheral vision. I normally use binoculars in a test to find the blind stake, so I use binoculars in training, even if the bumper is right in front of me. (You most likely will not need to do this.) I temporarily ignore the dog while I look for the stake and fix the landmarks around the stake in my memory. As I do this, I square up so both feet are pointing at the blind. Most dogs will look out in the direction you look and, as your dog gets more experience, he will likely adjust his position if you adjust yours. 

At this point, my old dog rarely needs any body adjustment to be lined up. The young one is still a bit clueless. If he needs a little body adjustment, I’ll (try to) have him pivot his rear. Ideally, the front feet should stay in the same place. Work on this separately if you need to. We obedience people tend to do “pot work” to teach the dog to keep his front feet planted and move his rear. My youngster is still awkward at this, so I might ask him to hop up to adjust. 

You might have had to look at your dog to make sure he’s lined up. If so, look back out in the direction of the blind and say “dead bird“ or “dead” or whatever you say. Out of the corner of your eye, look at the dog’s nose. If he is looking in the wrong direction, keep your left foot planted, and quietly shift your right foot either forward or back. Forward, should push his head to the left. A little back to shift his head right. If he’s really locked in on the wrong direction, I’ll softly say “no”. When his nose is lined up correctly, or what I think is correct (harder than you might think), I’ll softly say “perfect”. Then I drop my hand over his head and say Back. 

There was some discussion on RTF recently about saying “good” (or “perfect” in my case) to indicate the dog is looking in the right direction. There was disagreement about whether you say ”good” or just send. Whatever. Just try to be consistent with your dog. i think the most important thing is not the specific routine, but that you do the same thing every time. If you have ever watched a golf game, notice that the pro players will always have a routine as they approach a shot. If they are in the lead or close at the end of a tournament and potentially millions of dollars are at stake, the adrenaline will be sky high. Approaching that putt on the 18th green with the same routine as they used in every other putt helps calm them down. Use the same sports psychology technique on setting up for a blind. 

To add to what I wrote above about methods of transitioning to cold blinds: If you do the exercise where you drop the blind bumper with the dog watching, then do a double, then send for the blind, repeat it several days in a row, putting the blind in different locations. After you’ve done this for a few days, put the blind bumper down without showing the dog where it is, but make it a very easy blind. Do your double, and then set up for the blind exactly the way you set up on all the prior days when he had seen you put it down. He may be a little hesitant, but there is a good chance it will click with him that there is a bumper out there.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Just a quick note of thanks to everyone.

The last few days have been very productive.

Thanks for the articles. 

No more slouching.

Single T and Double T have gone well.

I got a little fancy with Double T today.

I have sent him the back pile stopped him, called him back to the first intersection and sent him to an over pile.

I have stopped him on the way to the back pile and then cast him back again.

I have sent him to the back pile, and while he’s being moving back tossed a bumper forward and then called him back to pick it up. 

So far I’ve had no issues casting him or sending him anywhere.

He still sits crookedly on a whistle blast but I whistle him in to correct. I’ve noticed that when I whistle him in he moves slowly because he’s anticipating a stop. I’ve responded with a Here, Nick, Here. 

He still does not take a left or right back cast properly but I’ll leave that alone for now.

I’ll continue with the Double T for the rest of this week and then next week try controlled casting.

I have three pattern blind set up. Anyone have any good articles on what drills to do with them?

Thanks 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> Anyone have any good articles on what drills to do with them?








YBS Media







ybsmedia.com






acolic said:


> I’ll continue with the Double T for the rest of this week and then next week try controlled casting.


Great progress, as soon as he is comfortable with disciplined casting you can start on swim by.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Thanks

I now have the Landry books and Evan’s transition DVD. 

We are done focusing on Dbl T and we have moved on to directional casting. 

What is the expected standard? When are you done?

We have done the drill twice so far and this is where we are. 

On the way back from the pile I can stop him and cast him back again. Then stop him short of the pile and call him in. 

On the way back from the pile I can cast him over left and he will run towards the left over pile. I stop him short and call him in. 

On the way back from the pile I can cast him over right and he will run towards the right over pile on an angle towards me. I stop him and cast him over right again. This is his weakest response to the drill. 

Appreciate the help. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> I now have the Landry books and Evan’s transition DVD.


Do you mean Lardy?


acolic said:


> We are done focusing on Dbl T and we have moved on to directional casting.


Disciplined casting?


acolic said:


> On the way back from the pile I can cast him over right and he will run towards the right over pile on an angle towards me. I stop him and cast him over right again. This is his weakest response to the drill.


Great progress
Angling in on over casts is typical, especially when not far from the handler.
It sounds like a little more work on that and you can move to swim by.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

You are right Lardy and Disciplined Casting. 

So as long as I can cast him to an over or back pile with a bumper in his mouth I’m good?

And is this done with a basic T setup or Dbl T setup?

Thanks


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> So as long as I can cast him to an over or back pile with a bumper in his mouth I’m good?


Yes, I like to cast to every pile, I do it as tune up drill occasionally. Teach the pup that casting is a great thing not a correction. Some people use too much voice, too loud on the whistle or they get frustrated. That can intimidate a pup and quickly erode confidence.
It sounds like you are doing great and your pup is having fun, exactly how it should be done.

Are you using voice commands with casts or just hand signals? I start with voice but quickly transition to just hand signals most of the time. In more advanced training and in trials, most handlers use voice and volume as extra tools to reinforce certain casts and in certain situations.

Working at a recent hunt test, I was surprised by how many handlers used too much voice with every cast and too much whistle with every sit. Some of these were pros, yelling back as loud as the could with every cast. Even on the send from the line they used way too much volume. There is no nice way to say it, that is just poor handling and it showed in the dogs. 

At a trial or in training, watch the most successful handlers as they interact with their dogs. There is purpose in nearly everything they do. 



acolic said:


> And is this done with a basic T setup or Dbl T setup?


I do it with both. I want the pup to be comfortable carrying casts a long way, running hard not looking back at me.

When you move to swim by remember you can always go back to T work if you run into trouble and need to work on a cast.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Well it is not going well. Before I screw him up I am going to take a step back and do dbl t tomorrow. Just to make sure he remembers how to do that. 

So not sure what is going on. 

If he picks up a bumper from the back pile and returns to me I can stop him at the intersection point and cast him back. Zero issue in this case. 

If he picks a bumper from the back pile and I stop him at the intersection point and cast him to an over pile he will move over but at an angle to me. Eventually he ends up being on the same line as me. 

I have tried to vary the distance from the cross over point to me and no change. 

What’s supposed to happen. Is he supposed to run straight to an over pile?

On a positive note initial 16 wheel wagon wheel is going well. 

Appreciate the advice. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> What’s supposed to happen. Is he supposed to run straight to an over pile?


Yes, same as if he were sent without a bumper. You may want to go back to that for a day or two.
You may also want to give him a day or to off of T work. Don't rush it, sounds like he is doing everything well pretty well. Angling in on over casts is a natural tendency for a pup, I would make sure the piles are visible and work through it. You can stop him and send him back if he angles in. Keep it positive, simplify if necessary and keep him enthusiastic.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Making progress?


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Not really. 

I was away for work the last four days so he didn’t get any training.

When I left it double T was good, directional casting was not.

Today I set up a short simple single T. No problem.

But still not getting directional casting I will work on it for the rest of this and next week.

Was a bit better when I moved almost in front of him. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> Was a bit better when I moved almost in front of him.


That is normal in my experience. Just gradually increase the distance as he catches on. 
It is a big concept for a pup to grasp, he wants to bring the bumper to you. Casting back with a bumper in mouth is more black and white. Casting over he can see you and that pulls him in. As he progresses in training there will be many factors that push and pull him. What you are doing now builds a foundation that will help him overcome those factors and also gives you the tools to teach and help him.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

It went a tad better today.

I found out if I stand halfway between the dog and the over pile and halfway between me and the dog when I cast him over he takes a cast pretty well.

But I’ve introduced a new issue which is he is slowing down and stopping on the way back anticipating that I will stop him and cast him.

What’s the best way to handle that?

Just here nick here?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> But I’ve introduced a new issue which is he is slowing down and stopping on the way back anticipating that I will stop him and cast him.
> 
> What’s the best way to handle that?
> 
> Just here nick here?


A normal dilemma when doing the T. As you know, retrievers are always anticipating. Ideally we would allow the dog to come all the way back much more often than we stop and cast. In cold weather we can do that, when it’s hot we can’t do as many repetitions so we stop and cast more often.
I would be reluctant to use much collar pressure. I don’t want to add stress to the situation. By slowing down he is anticipating being good and stopping on command, there is no disobedience on his mind. Watch the dog and give a here (in a very positive tone) when he shows any sign of slowing. Maybe a very very low nick if needed, anything more than that I would address separately.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Temporary I had to move past disciplined casting.

The weather is just too hot. And regardless of what time I started training with his coat he overheats quickly.

So we are focussing on water work.

I know I didn’t finish disciplined casting but I started swim by. 

We had one session.

I identified the back pile. No issues swimming to the back pile.

Then I set up a left over pile. 

Started casting him left while on his way to the back pile. 

While he would swim to the left over pile I ran to the right over position and called him over. To identify where the exit is. 

No issues. 

Except he hasn’t figured out how to tread water yet. If I whistle stop him while he’s in the water he does a slow circle.

That’s where we are until things cool down.

Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> I know I didn’t finish disciplined casting but I started swim by.


Nothing wrong with that IMO. It sounds like he gets the general concept. Moving to swim by may even help by upping his enthusiasm.
Treading water comes natural to some dogs and not so easy for others. I whistle or give a sit command to stop the circling. Even get the pup coming in slowly if that's what it takes to keep him from circling. It shouldn't take long, he is anticipating your cast so he wants to look at you and he knows he will have to go back or over so he won't be swimming toward you in a hurry.

Also;
Any time you cast a dog make sure he is focused on you. If he is wanting to look away, make him sit longer and stay focused on you before casting, "sweat him" is the term.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> While he would swim to the left over pile I ran to the right over position and called him over. To identify where the exit is.


I don't know that there is any harm in this but I don't do it. I will walk parallel to the dog down the shore at first, arm extended and encouraging him over. 
I make sure the piles are visible, even walking out and dropping bumpers on the piles as the pup watches from the mat.
You can start with the bumpers at the waters edge. Keep in mind what the pup can see from the water. Some people use flag, cones or white plastic fence posts to mark the piles.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Good day

Got a question about a Lardi drill.

On if the drills steps on to land is to seed an area with bumpers and send the dog to the general area. 

Because there’s so many bumpers I guess the logic is it’s not too hard to cast a dog to one of the bumpers. I guess this builds confidence in the dog leaving you knowing that you can cast him a bumper.

So I tried this in an area with grass about a 1-1.5’ tall. It was easy to hide the bumpers but I think him moving through the grass made the exercise more difficult than it needed to be. 

And I used orange bumpers. 

Was the field the correct field to do this? Shorter grass?

Should I have use white instead of orange bumpers?

Thanks 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Without looking it up, I believe the drill you refer to should be done in much less cover. Just enough to hide the bumpers so the dog can't see them from the line. The point is just to build confidence in being sent on a "cold blind". All we want is for the dog to go when sent with enthusiasm. Multiple bumpers ensure success.

You definitely want to use white bumpers on this drill. We are building the foundation for running blinds and don't want the pup putting his nose to the ground and hunting for an orange bumper that he can't see or a bumper hidden in heavy cover. 
After the basic concept is learned orange bumpers, birds and heavier cover are, of course, all used.

This is a point in training where it is very important to be reading your dog (not that there is a time when it isn't).
Be aware that some dogs can be very sensitive in this stage of learning blinds. Watch his body language for any sign of stress. You want him just as happy as when running a mark. If he runs slow and seems worried you need to be very positive and reassuring in how you handle him. Don't worry about precision, that will come, focus on keeping and increasing his enthusiasm. If you really need to boost his interest use birds. Some people will even use live shackled pigeons.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

This is a great thread!

Have you thought about video of what's happening? I have set up a camera or my phone on a tripod. I put it behind me to my left or right. So that I'm in the video and the field with the dog beyond. You can watch yourself and your dog afterwards, and maybe share it with someone to get some ideas of what's going on. The first time I video'd myself, I cringed at how dang much I talked to the dog and whistled and waved my arms around, I was totally unaware of how ridiculous I was. The later videos though I had a much better appreciation of what was happening and honestly it was a nice record of that dog, especially after that dog was long gone. I put my videos on YouTube. I can make them private and only viewable with a shared link, if you don't want them public. It's also nice to look back at where you've been and how far you and your dog have come.

Just a thought.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Not sure I can upload videos but it would probably be helpful.

So this is where we are. I found a reasonable swim by pond.

Had to take a day off or two because I was away for work.

He was introduced to the back pile no issues.

He was forced to the back pile no issues.

Today I did the stop swimming on the way to the back pile and there were issues. 

I don’t think he knows how to tread water. He would on a whistle blast go round in circles a few times and then start swimming for the back pile.

So I have to find a good video on teaching a dog how to tread water.

The odyssey keeps on going.

Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> Today I did the stop swimming on the way to the back pile and there were issues.
> 
> I don’t think he knows how to tread water. He would on a whistle blast go round in circles a few times and then start swimming for the back pile.
> 
> So I have to find a good video on teaching a dog how to tread water.


Some catch on to treading water quickly, with other pups it takes a little time. 
The first thing I would try is casting him quickly, as soon as he looks at you. Then pause for a second before casting, then 2 seconds...............


----------



## Golden Gibby (Jan 8, 2011)

SRW’s suggestion is good. My older dog never did learn to tread water very well and was still able to get her MH title.
At first I would cast fairly quickly then later I waited several seconds before casting and she did get better at holding position but would still be moving slowly around while waiting on me. 
As he suggested just keep working with your dog and as he gets better treading water delay a little longer before casting.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Everybody has been so helpful I thought I would give you an update.

For reference the pond is 25 yards x 60 yards.

Over the last week we’ve identified the back pile, forced to the back pile and stopped on the way to the back pile.

He’s not perfect but it’s OK.

I also have thrown right over bumpers and then ran to the left exit point to call him in to identify the exit point.

Today I threw right over marks and cast him left to the exit point. 

Not pretty.

The first time he came out of the water earlier because I wasn’t quick on the whistle. So I had him sit on shore I cast him back into the water and then cast him left to the exit point.

Next two were better. 

Through a series of left overs, back, here’s I kept him somewhat the middle of the channel to the exit point. But I had to walk along the shore with him the entire way.

Hopefully over the next few days he gets it and we can start on the right exit point. 

He breezed through Junior and HRC started and I was hoping to do at least one senior test this year.

He has no issues with doubles or quartering.

But we’ll see where we go.

Thanks for all the help.

Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Ok more questions. 

Still working on the swim by. It’s just not clean and I don’t want to move on until he can do a left over swim by correctly. 

My question is how to handle mistakes.

If for example I send him to the back pile and stop him in the water along the way and give him a left back cast and he does a right back cast what do I do?

Sometimes when we’re doing the swim by he starts swimming on an angle away from me towards the back shore. What I have been doing is whistling him to me and then giving him another left cast. Sometimes he ignores my whistle in command and I have to do it two or three times. Do I correct him with a here -nick - here?

He can do five handed casting, single and double T well. Still need to firm up disciplined casting. 

I have started to transition to cold land blinds. I did the drill where you seed a field with bumpers and cast them to the bumpers. Making it easy for him to be cast to one of them.

After doing that a few times I’ve moved on to putting a few bumpers in a field marked by surveyors tape.

He eagerly leaves my side the issue is he is all over the place.

Give him a left cast and I might get a left back cast etc. It takes way more casts to get to the bumper than it should. And he seems to be driven by his nose. If he smells where he thinks the bumper is his nose overrides taking cast properly.

This needing 100 casts to find a bumper 100 yards away is that normal?

What do I do if he takes a cast incorrectly?

Appreciate the help. 

Ale


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> If for example I send him to the back pile and stop him in the water along the way and give him a left back cast and he does a right back cast what do I do?


I would work on this separately. You can even do it in the living room. I have done it hundreds of times sending my dogs to their dinner.


acolic said:


> Sometimes when we’re doing the swim by he starts swimming on an angle away from me towards the back shore. What I have been doing is whistling him to me and then giving him another left cast.


I do that as well.


acolic said:


> Sometimes he ignores my whistle in command and I have to do it two or three times. Do I correct him with a here -nick - here?


Maybe, have to be very careful. First I would simplify with big white bumpers or a marker that he can see clearly.
You want to keep swim by as fun as possible. 
If he is being very defiant you are probably justified in correcting. I would stop him with a whistle, "No-No" and maybe a low nick, then cast again.


acolic said:


> Give him a left cast and I might get a left back cast etc. It takes way more casts to get to the bumper than it should. And he seems to be driven by his nose. If he smells where he thinks the bumper is his nose overrides taking cast properly.
> 
> This needing 100 casts to find a bumper 100 yards away is that normal?


No, it sounds like he is going into "hunt mode" instead of running a blind. 
I think I would back off on the cold blinds until swim by is mastered. Too many concepts at once can be very stressful for a pup.
To get him running rather than hunting in route to a blind, place a pile of bumpers by a tree, bush or natural marker of some kind and let him see you do it. From about 100 yards away give him a "dead bird" cue, line him up and send him. Move 10-15 yards left or right to change the angle and repeat, keep doing that until he gets all the bumpers.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

> First I would simplify with big white bumpers or a marker that he can see clearly.


Do you mean mark the exit point with white bumpers?

The scenario is he’s doing the swing by and starts moving towards the back shire, I whistle him in to try to move him back to the middle of the pond. Instead of taking the whistle blast the first time it takes a few to start him moving towards me.

Right now there are no white cone or bumpers at the swim by exit point.

Should there be?

As for the hunting issue I will do the drill you suggested tomorrow.

thanks


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> Right now there are no white cone or bumpers at the swim by exit point.
> 
> Should there be?


That would be a way to simplify and teach.


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

@SRW So I’m going to jump in and ask a question. I do water T, and swim by, but it sounds like my swim by is different. I sit the dog on far bank of swim by pond. Place 1 white bumper on opposite bank. I go stand in the middle (I have a perfect swim by pond) and I cast over to the white bumper, only repeating over command if the dog looks at me. Once he swims in a straight line, center of channel, picks up the bumper I sit whistle. I then cast away from the pond further, up on land, with them holding the bumper. (disciplined casting). I will walk over, toot them in, take bumper and sit them on the bank. I let them watch me place bumper on opposite bank and repeat. Once this is successful I only use one bumper. They pick it up once and then keep it and I cast from bank to bank, still only doing overs.

I don’t do backs during swim by, only during water T, unless it’s to keep the dog from coming in to close to me. I consider successful swim by them staying in the center of the Chanel and carrying one or two cast to the other bank, taking the sit whistle, and taking the cast back across the pond past me equally as well. Is it just a difference in teaching methods? 

I keep water T completely separate. It’s just how I was taught. I find swim by has really helped my channel blinds and with cheating. The amount it’s helped cheating is pretty amazing since it wasn’t my intent. I did water T before swim by. Wrong order? Any other really good water drills to help solidify cold water blinds at longer distances?


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> I don’t do backs during swim by, only during water T, unless it’s to keep the dog from coming in to close to me. I consider successful swim by them staying in the center of the Chanel and carrying one or two cast to the other bank, taking the sit whistle, and taking the cast back across the pond past me equally as well. Is it just a difference in teaching methods?


I pretty much follow Lardy's program, as do many field trainers. The back pile is included in swim by. There is nothing wrong with having just one bumper to teach the over command, it is a good way to simplify and ensure success.
I also like the dog to carry a cast out of the water for a good distance, even across land and into more water if i have a place to do it. 

Swim by is one of the foundations of handling as well as water cheating. It also gives you the tools to teach and correct water cheating, angle entries, re-entries.....................



DblTrblGolden2 said:


> Any other really good water drills to help solidify cold water blinds at longer distances?


Lots of them, starting at a greater distance from the water, entering at increasingly acute angles, on and off points, swimming close to shore.
Training DVD's by Lardy and others are very helpful. A picture is worth a thousand words and a video is worth much more.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Almost done another few days. 

He is moving to the back pile well. 

He is moving to the over piles well but I have to move along the water with him. 

Pretty soon I will be able to cast him to the back pile, stop him in the water in his way, send him back again, on his way back to me stop him, cast him left or right, go to the over pile and then cast him again right / left to the other side. 

Hopefully less than a wee to go. 

Alex 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> Almost done another few days.
> 
> He is moving to the back pile well.
> 
> ...


Way Cool

The final step in swim by is going doing it in a different place. It doesn't have to be a perfect swim by pond and don't expect perfection. Just work through it, simplify if necessary. He will soon recognize the the concept is the same and he knows how to do it, a great confidence builder.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

So… I expects when by to be done tomorrow. I have him moving in any direction on the pond.

I will then take him to another pawn to generalize.


But since swim by was almost done while we were doing land blinds , which he is doing fine, I set up three short water blinds.

The first two were OK. They were about 30 yards.

He wasn’t taking the cast sharply. I expected that because that’s how he responded to the initial land blinds. Then things improve.

The third blind ( 40 yards) was a complete disaster. He was not taking any of my casts well. He was all over the place. He could not keep an initial line in the water. It was very disappointing.

Besides generalizing the swim by did I miss something between the swim by and initial water blinds.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> Besides generalizing the swim by did I miss something between the swim by and initial water blinds.


That would really depend on the blinds and what you expect in terms of handling. A dog that has T work and swim by understands basic casting commands. It is a long slow journey to "literal casting". 
With land blinds it is easy to walk up and simplify. Obviously not as easy to do with water blinds. 
Keep the first water blinds very simple, just one factor. That could be swimming down a shore, starting 40 or 50 yards from the water with a square entry, starting close to the water with an angle entry, carrying a cast a fair distance after exiting water................. 
Water marks will help teach the same concepts and can be more exciting for a pup.

The goal is, of course, to go to a blind as straight as possible. On land treat any obstacle such as a path, road, ditch, strip of cover, play ground equipment etc. just like water. Dogs naturally tend square obstacles they have to cross. For instance a ditch at a 45 degree angle to the line to a blind, your dog will likely turn and square the ditch, you need to teach him, by handling, to angle across it. A long steep slope is a good place to teach dog to hold a hillside and resist climbing or falling off it, this concept is closely related to swimming down a shore. 

The next phase of training is commonly called transition and is much more fun for dog and handler than basics.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Hi

Swing by is done.

Focusing on simple land and water blinds.

At this point should I be using orange or white bumpers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Usually orange but if there’s cover it doesn’t make much difference.
There are times you might want to use white as to intentionally let the dog see the bumper near the end of the blind as kind of a confidence booster. For instance if the dog is reluctant to pass through cover, A white bumper visible as soon as the pup gets through it is an instant reward. As with anything don’t overdo it you don’t want him constantly looking for white bumpers when he’s supposed to be running and listening for your whistle.
Using birds will really boost a dogs enthusiasm and is a much greater reward at the end of a tough blind.
If you are married, a separate freezer for dead ducks and pheasants is pretty much mandatory. Wives seem to universally despise dead birds in amongst the frozen food.

I was actually just about to post on this thread to mention that you seem to be well ahead of the curve in reading your dog, simplifying and working through any problems in general.
I hope you find it rewarding and have fun.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

SRW said:


> I hope you find it rewarding and have fun.


I am not at the stage where I can look back and think this is fun. 

I find it pretty frustrating. 

Transitioning from drills to actual blinds has been brutal. 

I went back and did a bit of dbl t and 5 handed casting just as a handling reinforcement and there were no issue. 

I’ve done some analysis.

If he leaves a line properly, land or water, he will carry a straight line for quite a distance and if I stop him he will take a back cast properly. 

But the left and right overs are terrible especially in water. And I think that’s because he does not see a bumper as an end point to run towards. He just has to turn and run and I think that is a problem. 

Even if I get him to go left/ right properly he won’t carry that line far and starts angling away. 

Is there a drill for this?
Suggestions?

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Should I do a single T with orange over piles?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> Should I do a single T with orange over piles?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes 

If you have not done so already, force on the over casts as well. "Over nick Over" same as "Back nick Back".
Don't over do it, low nicks and not many per session, you just want to see him accelerate when hearing the command.

I know it gets frustrating but you need to remember where you were weeks and months ago not just days ago.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

So I do something like this.

Set up a back pile with white bumpers.

Set up two widely spaced over piles with orange bumpers

Send to back
Send to back
Stop on way to back
Send left over. Over Nick over. 
Send to back
Send to back
Stop on way to back
Send right over. Over Nick over. 
Send to back. 
… repeat


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Something like that. To start you may want to simplify. Maybe go back to baseball but start with just one pile of white bumpers plainly visible. No disciplined casting, just "over nick over" or "back nick back". Not too many nicks and keep them low. Look for that acceleration as you say over or back (in a calm, positive voice). You can do it in the swim by pond as well, sometime easier to see the pup try to speed up in water.
Once you see him digging in when hearing the command you can move to orange bumpers or bumpers in cover. 

Remember that the obstacles you face with your pup have been faced by others with their dogs and your next dog will probably have different issues to work through. They all have personalities, strong points, weak points, good days and bad. Then we complicate things with our own good days, bad days...............................


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Demoralizing end to the year.

He did complete CKC JH, WCI, and HRC started this year. 

But we just failed on the senior hunt test water blind.

No issues with the land double, quartering or land blind but a lot of cast refusals on the water blind.

I could see his nose taking over and him doing what he thinks is right versus taking my hand signal.

He would move on my hand cast but in the direction he thought best.

Quite demoralizing.

I need to figure this out.

Really, a lot of thanks for everybody getting me this far.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> Quite demoralizing


I guarantee everyone there knew exactly how you felt because they had been there more than once.


acolic said:


> I need to figure this out.


You’re exactly right and I believe you will.
The people that won’t figure it out are the ones still blaming the test, the judges, a bird chirping in the background………….


----------



## Golden Gibby (Jan 8, 2011)

Congrats on your progress. Also take heart from you success on the land series. It’s a pretty big jump from Junior to Senior. Keep working on your blinds and you’ll get there. 
My only thought is to make sure to not be in a hurry when casting and make the dog focus on you. Sometime at a test the clock runs too fast in my head so when I need to slow down I take 2 or three deep breaths before casting to make sure I’m not in a hurry.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

The dog didn't know how to do a water blind because you are still in pile work. He doesn't have 6+ months of cold blind experience, which would be an ideal time to enter a senior test. You simply entered him too early, he doesn't have the experience or education. Not a surprising outcome. Please don't be demoralized. Use it as fuel to inspire you to keep training and only enter next time when you are over prepared.


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

Hi

Me again. 

It’s nice not to have test dates at the back of your mind, it makes training way less stressful.

Land work is actually coming along really well.

Members of my club suggested two drills to lengthen out his land pile work.

Drill one has three separate piles of bumpers parallel in front of you. 

From 50 feet you send him to pile one, two and then three.

Then you walk another 25m away and you send your dog to pile three, two, one then another 25m and you send your dog to pile two, one, three.

We did this first time with white bumpers and now have transition to orange bumpers. No major issue lining him and sending him. This has really stretched out his ability to run a long distance.

Drill number two is more of a casting drill.

Kind of tough to explain but imagine on one side of a field you lay out two piles of bumpers ( 1 bumper each) then at the other side you put one one bumper. 

From the side with only one bumper you send him across the field to the side with two bumpers. As he’s going to one of the bumper piles you stop him and you give him an over or 45 back cast to the other pile. Then when he returns you take the bumper he just returned with and throw it to make another pile and then walk back to the other side of the field and repeat. 

They tell me this is a good long distance casting drill. It has him run a long distance but then he has to stop quickly and then from a long distance take a cast. This has all been done with orange bumpers we’re up to about 125 m. 

So on the land side I’m pretty comfortable.

Not so comfortable with water hence I need a bit more guidance.

I have access to a rectangular pond. 

At one of the short ends I put down a pile of white bumpers and sent him to the pile from the other short end. This forced him to swim down a channel to get to the pile.

Once I had no issues with this along the long end I put out a couple of white bumpers.

The first few times I sent him to the back pile he would want to veer to one of the side piles but I would cast him back. We worked on this and now once sent back he will swim down the channel and ignore the side bumpers. 

I then switched up the side bumpers with orange pumpers. Still no issue. I could send him to the back pile and while he was going to the back pile I could stop him and cast him over to one of the side bumpers.

So far so good.

The issue came when I changed the back pile from white bumpers to orange bumpers.

I could not get him to swim down the channel to the back orange bumpers. I thought maybe the side bumpers were causing an issue so I removed them.

The behaviour I’m seeing is the same as I saw during the hunt test. He will start swimming back but then he veers left or right to the shore. Unless he can see the back pile.

So any suggestion how I can get him to swim long and straight to a back pile when he can’t see it?

Thanks 

Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Golden Gibby (Jan 8, 2011)

I’m thinking I would keep making sure the back pile is well established before setting any on the sides. 
I would probably put a couple of big white bumpers in with several orange. keep sending to back pile and wean out the white bumpers as you dog goes with confidence. not sure how long the swim is but remember not to wear out the dog. It takes time and repetition it doesn’t get fixed in one or two days. If you can repeat several times a week. I’m working through transition with my younger dog now so I can relate. My older dog spent a lot of time at this before getting confident.
good luck


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Golden Gibby said:


> I would probably put a couple of big white bumpers in with several orange. keep sending to back pile and wean out the white bumpers as you dog goes with confidence.


I agree.


acolic said:


> I could not get him to swim down the channel to the back orange bumpers. I thought maybe the side bumpers were causing an issue so I removed them.


Removing the side piles simplifies the drill considerably and is the right thing to do for your pup I think. Are you giving your pup a "Dead Bird" cue before sending? You should before sending on any blind and you want to see the dog perk up with excitement when he hears it. Using dead birds instead of bumpers occasionally will help build enthusiasm. 
You should also have a few places where there is always a bumper near an obvious landmark, maybe a large tree. Cue the dog with "dead bird" and send to it from various places and distances. Don't do this in a places where you train often on other things (because the dog will just run to the tree).

It seems that with straight back casts, there is a distance at which a pup will naturally break down, probably between 150 and 200 yards. It can take time and patients but once you get the dog confident in going past that distance they will carry a cast for hundreds of yards.


----------



## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Have you tried a swim-by? Dog at one end, bumper at the other, you along the side mid-way. Give an over. Then try it with a white bumper on the side, close to you. You can push him away from the bumper on the side by stepping to it and repeating the over. You might also point to the side bumper and say "Leave it".


----------



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

PalouseDogs said:


> Have you tried a swim-by? Dog at one end, bumper at the other, you along the side mid-way. Give an over. Then try it with a white bumper on the side, close to you. You can push him away from the bumper on the side by stepping to it and repeating the over. You might also point to the side bumper and say "Leave it".


We did the swim by.

The issues with all these drills, dbl T, swim by, pattern blinds etc is the dog knows the bumpers are there. There’s no leap of faith.

I’m going to put the white bumpers back for the back pile and see how things go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> We did the swim by.
> 
> The issues with all these drills, dbl T, swim by, pattern blinds etc is the dog knows the bumpers are there. There’s no leap of faith.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a good plan. You need to build enthusiasm and confidence. As mentioned before dead birds will help. Some people will even use live pigeons on blinds to perk up a dos interest.

If you can find places with strips of cover or small ridges in the terrain, place a large white bumper past it. When the dog pushes through the cover and sees the bumper it is a big confidence boost. 

Mix in plenty of marks in his training, especially after success in blinds or drills. Finish with fun stress free stuff so he looks forward to training.


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

acolic said:


> We did the swim by.
> 
> The issues with all these drills, dbl T, swim by, pattern blinds etc is the dog knows the bumpers are there. There’s no leap of faith.
> 
> ...


Keep doing the drills with a few white bumpers and build confidence. Then if you can find a different pond to train in do that too. I found that my guy was perfect at home, but when I put him on a big pond, at a place we sometimes trained, he lost his confidence again. He would go out for a channel blind and start to come back. A good friend told me land takes 100's of repetitions and water takes 1000's. He's been training dogs longer then I've been alive. I feel like confidence is everything on blinds. Cruz had to learn that the same rules apply in 150 yards of water as they do in 50 yards of water. I'm betting it's one of those things I'll always be working on.

The other thing is that I do swim by with no bumpers. I sit him on the bank and send him to the other side and then swim him back to where he started from. Once he swims by me in both directions I whistle him to me (without cheating) and he gets a happy bumper. I don't know if it would help, but it helped me. Cruz has crazy bumper drive so it helped me work on control.


----------

