# GRCA: excessive coat and over-groomed coats are not correct.



## Pammie

The article below came from my Facebook feed and was posted by the GRCA. 
I thought the piece was quite interesting and thought others might also.
............
*Golden Retriever Club of America*

April 2 at 5:48pm · 

This was sent to all AKC judges as a reminder that coat is extremely important in our breed and that excessive coat and over-groomed coats are not correct.



https://akcconformationjudges.wordp...ing-and-presentation-of-the-golden-retriever/
*Coat: Grooming and Presentation of the Golden Retriever*

By Judging Operations on April 2, 2018 
Coat, including texture, length, color and distribution, is an important characteristic of breed type in any breed. Primarily a hunting dog, the Golden Retriever originated in the highlands of Scotland, a rugged landscape complete with heather, bracken and rocky crags. The Golden was developed as a retriever of ducks, pheasants, rabbits and other upland game. As with most Scottish breeds, coat plays an important role in protecting them from the cool and dampness common in their native country. The Golden requires a double-coat, with good undercoat under a correctly textured, weather resistant jacket that wraps the body.

 The Golden Retriever Club of America Judge’s Education Committee is very concerned about the ongoing trends in the grooming and presentation of the breed. A correct coat, with proper length and texture requires minimal preparation and use of products. We are seeing many Goldens with excessive coat length and improper texture, a hinderance to a hunting retriever, and as a result we see excessive trimming and improper preparation.

 The AKC breed standard is very specific in its description of the correct coat and presentation:
Head- “Removal of whiskers is permitted but not preferred”
Coat- “Dense and water-repellent with good undercoat. Outer coat firm and resilient, neither coarse nor silky, lying close to body; may be straight or wavy. Untrimmed natural ruff; moderate feathering on back of forelegs and on underbody; heavier feathering on front of neck, back of thighs and underside of tail. Coat on head, paws, and front of legs is short and even. Excessive length, open coats, and limp, soft coats are very undesirable. Feet may be trimmed and stray hairs neatened, but the natural appearance of coat or outline should not be altered by cutting or clipping.”
Feet: “Excess hair may be trimmed to show natural size and contour.”
In addition to the standard, _AKC Rules Applying to Dog Shows_ (Chap. 11, Sec. 8) have clear rules about the use of foreign substances, alterations and dyeing, which unfortunately, are too often ignored.
Here is what the Golden Retriever Club of America Illustrated Study Guide states:
_The Golden Retriever should be presented as a natural, athletic, hunting dog. Excessive baiting, stringing up the neck and front by the collar or by a tight leash when moving should not be tolerated by judges. Coats should lie flat as a water-proof jacket and not be overly prepared through the use of products or excessive fluffing with blow dryers. Any evidence of alteration of the coat, which does not allow the judge to access its correct texture, should be severely penalized, as should trimming or scissoring of the coat beyond the allowances made in the standard for neatening ears and feet.

_ We accept that many exhibitors are expert groomers and present their dogs with a natural appearance despite a lot of preparation time. However, current unacceptable trends include scissoring straight underlines, trimming and shaping of the ruff and body coat, overdone bathing and blow drying which creates an open coat and leaves judges unable to assess correct coat texture. The excessive amounts of coat and feathering which require such trimming are not practical for a retriever, soaking up water and collecting burrs and debris. Please note that either a wavy or straight coat is acceptable, without preference. Often the wavy coat has a more correct resilient texture and it should not be straightened artificially. The hair on the head should lie flat and not be back-brushed and rear pasterns should not be sculpted in an attempt to create a well let down hock. 








We realize that we are facing a chicken and egg situation, *but exhibitors will not stop the excessive grooming and trimming unless judges enforce the requirements of the breed standard.* Judges are doing a disservice to the breed by ignoring the requirements of the breed standard and the excessive coat and sculpting of the Golden Retriever in the show ring. Golden Retrievers are a hands-on breed and structure under the coat must be determined by a careful and consistent examination of the correct structure described by the breed standard. We acknowledge that there may be some lovely dogs structurally under all the hair but our message should be clear. Correct coat and breed type comes from the whelping box and not on the grooming table.







Correct Wavy Coat








Natural, correctly textured, moderate coat


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## jdavisryan

I just wanted to thank you for posting this interesting piece. I've never shown a dog in the ring and don't want to offend any of the hard working people who do conformation, but I've always loved the look of a neatly trimmed but natural coat on a Golden. Very interesting reading.


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## Megora

*shaking head* If the people who put this stuff out there all the time want to make an impact, they should just get back into dog showing themselves. Show the dogs they have the way they want to show them. Make a point by getting out there.

Some shows out there that have small entries because most are looking for majors and they know these shows never attract big handlers from out of town who build most majors....these are prime ground for those people who love to armchair quarterback about what they believe is happening in the show rings. If they bring the dogs, odds are they will win classes and compete for points. Or the very least have fun showing their dogs. 

The frustrating point for me is that most puppies look like the dog picture on the left. They have minimal coats and are cute and fuzzy.... and a lot of them may win on any given day. Some pups may win their championships well before their adult coats grow.

And those dogs end up looking like the dogs on the right side pic - simply because by the time they are 4+ years old, their mature adult coats are growing in. 

Here in the US we do NOT chop up all of the long feathers that would grow on a dog. The neck is not stripped to nothingness. The leg feathers are not trimmed. The hocks are not cut close. The tail is not shaped to resemble a setter's tail.

If you show AKC - most of the time, the preference for some of the diehard breeder-handlers is neatening up what the dog already has. And doing very minimal trimming on the dog's natural coat.

IF judges start making a point of selecting dogs with puppy coats, that will just encourage handlers to start trimming MORE on the adult dogs. 

I already know at least one person who has talked about giving her boy a "puppy trim" which is literally trimming the leg feathers, mane, belly, etc so the outline of the dog is more like that on the left. This can be done regardless of what the dog was born with. And you would see handlers doing this if judges start expecting us to groom our dogs like they do overseas.


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## Swampcollie

The GRCA has made a generalized statement to AKC Judges regarding our breed in the ring. It is a reminder to Judges what "correct coat" is and why it is important. 

Things were starting to get out of hand so a general reminder was appropriate to reign things back in again.


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## Vhuynh2

Megora said:


> IF judges start making a point of selecting dogs with puppy coats, that will just encourage handlers to start trimming MORE on the adult dogs.


Maybe I’m reading it wrong, but I think the point is that the coat on the dog on the left shouldn’t be what you call a “puppy coat”; that is what a correct adult coat should look like. Dogs shouldn’t have to be trimmed to look like that.


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## Megora

Vhuynh2 said:


> Maybe I’m reading it wrong, but I think the point is that the coat on the dog on the left shouldn’t be what you call a “puppy coat".....


I'm talking about conformation bred dogs, not dogs bred for other things.... and based on what I've seen in the ring. And based on the dogs I've owned. 

And based on the different grooming routines that I've witnessed. Just because some people sculpt out the necks of the dogs to resemble some of the biggest winners out there (not naming names), it does not mean everyone does it. 

And just because you have outspoken people blasting others for all the grooming they do, do not assume that they are just arriving at shows before ring time and heading in. Watching somebody's comments on fb, you would have assumed that this person did just that. But a couple years ago, I set up near this person and got to see what their routine was (while I sat in my grooming set up and waited until closer to ring time before doing anything). This person spent more time than ANYONE ELSE grooming and fussing over their dogs with the dryers blasting and all that. Most people spend about 30-40 minutes grooming the dogs directly before ring time. But this person spent at least 2 hours working on the dogs and a lot of product going into the coats. 

Beyond that, the breed standard describes moderate feathering on the back of the forelegs and on the underbody, heavier feathering on the front of the neck, back of thighs, and underside of the tail.

Breed standard also references that the outer coat needs to be firm and resilient, neither coarse nor silky and lying close to the body. It specifically says it can be straight or wavy. (as opposed to posting a picture of the young dog type ripples and saying that is a correct coat, no examples given of a straight coat that is also correct and preferred by most)

Furthermore, the ruff needs to be untrimmed, etc. And I honestly have never seen anyone trim the tail as pictured above. 

I've attended grooming seminars where people put a lot of effort into grooming the ruff so as to ensure they are not cutting into the top coat or removing length. Some will not use strippers because as they showed me, it's cutting the "darker" hairs as opposed to the light fluff beneath. And they only want to thin out the fluff beneath. They are only stripping out (lightly or heavily as the case may be) the undercoat. If you think this is overdone in the AKC, then you have not seen what they do in other countries. Funny thing is one of the people presenting the article to the AKC has posted pictures of dogs showing in other countries with the clipped out necks and everything. 

The picture below, I drew blue lines where I believed the dogs' bodies probably are. I probably was overgenerous in giving the dog on the right a nice front, but even if I made the blue line more straight, you could definitely say that the amount of "mane" coming down the front and under the dog's body matches the description of "moderate" as described in the breed standard. And that's assuming moderate means what I think it does (minimal, moderate, excessive). Likewise, if the dog on the right is assumed to have a deeper chest than what I "gave' him (those blue lines), then he has even less length hanging off his belly.

Whereas the dog on the left is more along the lines of minimal based again on the blue lines.

Whether the adult dog you own is something more like what's on the left or right, my point is neither dog is excessive. As well, I see a lot of puppies (6 month to 12 month) who are not dripping in coat just yet. It might take a few years for their coats to mature. Doesn't hurt them in the ring. 

(I removed the head and tail of the dog on the right because both areas looked funky to me and I agree signs of sculpting)


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## Sweet Girl

"Excessive length, open coats, and limp, soft coats are very undesirable."

What does open coat mean?


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## Altairss

n open coat, usually of softer texture and more length, what defines this coat is the angle of the hairs to the body. You can achieve the same effect by blow drying 3 above and back brushing the coat, this will give you a coat which stands out from the body at almost a 90 degree angle. This is faulty because it doesn't protect the undercoat and the body from weather. It is ironic to see a dog who has a correct coat so over-groomed that it is shown with this incorrect open coat.


The above is the definition of open coat that I see the most. Where I live PNW most dogs in the ring have been so over washed and blown out so that you really can't tell if they have correct coat texture or not. The judges put those dogs up all the time here so I loved seeing this article. As long as this is rewarded in the ring people will do it people show for a reason. I have a friend shows goldens and she had to learn how to basically over groom so she could place in the shows in our area. Now some people blow out this way to hide the fact their dog does not have the correct texture to the coat. I was ringside at a large show not so long ago in tight quarters so I got to feel a lot of dogs coats at least 80 percent of the dogs coats felt soft and silky like an afghan hound and most of them had really long feathering and sculpting of the coat hair. Its commonly seen here. I would bet that a good portion of those dogs have good coats but the way they were groomed made it impossible to tell. 25 years ago here the coats were much more moderate and the top lines and shoulders were so much nicer. 

At an outdoor show last year it suddenly poured and then the incorrect coats really showed their true colors lol I saw so many handlers freak out and some pulled their dogs and didn't show.


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## Megora

Breeds like chows are supposed to have an "off standing" coat. Where it's very thick and stands away from the skin. 

If the dogs get wet presumably the coat would act like a sponge instead of water flowing right off the top coat. That's how you know if the dog has an incorrect coat. 

A lot of senior or neutered dogs get that soft cotton type coat which likewise acts like a sponge. 

It's texture not length, color, etc.

People freak out about their dogs getting wet because of product making the dogs poofy getting soaked down. If the costs are poofed up to hide something, I guess that's why they may pull? Personally speaking showing the dogs in the rain is fun on the basis we REALLY don't have to fuss with getting the feet perfectly shaped. It doesn't bother the costs too much if the coats are correct. 

Couple years ago we showed at a specialty where we were outside in the pouring rain. Nobody groomed their dogs. But everyone showed.


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## Altairss

I love wet shows it really shows what is what! I think I would like showing where you live Megora. Last year I started showing Blitz my aussie at ASCA shows but I decided to try an AKC show with him. I was recommended by a professional handler who shows goldens and aussies to wash him two or three times to make sure he was really clean I did it twice and then blow dried his coat and he lost every bit of his correct coat texture it was all flat and silky and totally incorrect but the handler was like that's perfect. Not! I won't make that mistake again. 


Coat texture should be King for a golden. There are a lot of extremes out there in coat types. Looking at my signature photo Sparkles had a fairly moderate length coat before she was spayed but it was soft. If we went out in the rain it did not take long before she was saturated and it took her forever to dry. I had to blow her coat out afterwards not just towel dry or she would get hot spots. Boots was heavily field bred. His coat was really short as were his feathers ( lot of field dogs in my area were bred to have a lot less coat then standard ) he had good texture to his coat but not sufficient undercoat. When swimming or out in the rain I had to watch to make sure he did not get chilled. Tink is fairly moderate a little light on length and feather better texture then Sparkles but not as good as Boots but she has a better undercoat then his.


Now there can be good reason to blow out a coat to get rid of those curls. You don't have long to make that impression in the ring and a bunch of curls on the bum can make a dog look butt high when there not. I know a couple dogs that look high in the rear due to their curls and some judges don't see past it some do. Not everything being done is bad but it is getting pretty extreme compared to what it used to be.


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## hotel4dogs

I was reading the commentaries on dogs at National in the show ring, and it struck me that dogs of the same age all seemed to have the same faults!!! So apparently it's what was being bred at the time. For example, a lot of dogs are roughly the same age as Tito were commented as being "a little long in the loin" or "long in the back". It was a common complaint when we were showing.


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## Alaska7133

I have a friend I walk with often that has a golden with an Open Coat. This coat couldn't be more wrong for a golden. The fur is so thick it does stand out almost like a chow chow, like a previous poster mentioned. The thickness is beyond anything I've ever seen. The owner uses a coat king on that coat every week and doesn't hardly make a dent. The open coat means that when the dog goes swimming, which is often does, The coat is wet all the way to the skin. Which it should not be. The fur is very soft. The sire and dam of this dog are both Ch and both sire and dam were finished in main stream shows, not back waters like my area (as Megora alludes to). The problems for this open coat are extreme difficultly in grooming, massive shedding, and no protection for the dog from cold water. 

The whole neck trimming thing came from Europe. They trim necks excessively!!! Here's a link to a photo of the trimming style of British and Euro golden retrievers: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...1-european-vs-american-golden-retrievers.html


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## Megora

hotel4dogs said:


> I was reading the commentaries on dogs at National in the show ring, and it struck me that dogs of the same age all seemed to have the same faults!!! So apparently it's what was being bred at the time. For example, a lot of dogs are roughly the same age as Tito were commented as being "a little long in the loin" or "long in the back". It was a common complaint when we were showing.


I think that dogs being long and "looking" long is something that drives some of the creative grooming. 

It was interesting observing this conversation here before talking with a top golden retriever handler and breeder about some of the "sculpting" that is done. And why it is done. 

It's frustrating to realize "why" it is done and it goes back to what I said previously that dogs who are middle-aged are more likely to have that longer fringe coming down off their bellies. 

And it is literally true right now about how/why handlers tackle those areas with a stripping knife (less noticeable than using thinning shears). And this is done with dogs who are correct and should win on that merit, but often get lost in the shuffle because there's something the judge sees which makes it easier to pick a less correct dog who doesn't have the same visual flaw. 

One of the things I learned today is if you have a dog who has correct dimensions - if he poofs out in back off the butt bone, it can visually lengthen their body even if the dog is correct. 

Likewise, if the dogs ruff is thick and flows straight down, it can shorten the neck and even make a dog appear to be straighter in front. Where people are sculpting in "bad" way is creating better fronts than the dogs have by shaping it out. But I learned today that a dog with a good front sometimes needs bulk trimmed up and removed so the judge can see what the dog has.

All of it is driven by both the judge's perspective + the competition in the ring. As the case is, most dogs are finished with the CH by the time they are 3. If you have O/H like myself who are learning everything about making their dogs stand out and win, they either drop out after age 3 or they hire handlers to finish the dogs. 

My comment overall on what I watching at the show today especially was in regards to this conversation. I admittedly did not watch the best of breed portion when the specials come in, so there you might have longer coats and more sculpting. But majority of the dogs competing for WD and WB - were between the ages of 6 months and about 3 years. And while some were quite "puffy" in appearance and rolypoly (they rippled and rolled when moving), you did not have long flowing coats or uber-stripped necks as was complained about in the article. 

If you are only watching Westminster as your primary exposure to golden retrievers in conformation, you are only seeing the specials who might be anywhere between 2 year olds to 10 year olds....

Beyond that - there was a point where in between sleeping with my eyes open between shows... I watched a really big handler person for a terrier breed teaching another person how to groom these dogs for show..... It was the type of thing which makes you REALLY appreciate our breed. Watching this dog get groomed from scratch was horrifying. :laugh: It was somewhere between shearing a sheep and whittling a very detailed statue out of a stump of wood. At one point, the handler yelped about the person almost cutting something off. I assumed it wasn't an ear, but I wasn't sure....


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## hotel4dogs

While I don't disagree with you, Kate, I just wanted to add that I've shown with some of the dogs that were critiqued and yep, they are a tad long. Also, this was the National show with very lengthy, hands on judging, so the critiques were not grooming illusion.


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## annef

The link to the golden that is trimmed for the European shows does not demonstrate good trimming We do trim our dogs necks in the UK but they are not supposed to be shaved! It is done to make them look as if they have upper arm, leaving the hair long below the breast bone.I was hoping to add a photo to show you but can't seem to do it Annef


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## nolefan

annef said:


> The link to the golden that is trimmed for the European shows does not demonstrate good trimming We do trim our dogs necks in the UK but they are not supposed to be shaved! It is done to make them look as if they have upper arm, leaving the hair long below the breast bone.I was hoping to add a photo to show you but can't seem to do it Annef


I was hoping you would see this thread, it's so interesting to get your perspective. I have always wondered why coat texture appears to be different in photos between U.S. and Europe - with Europe mostly appearing correct. Is the U.S. the only country putting mousse and other products in the coat ? Are blow dryers used by everyone? 

I love reading the stories from people who have been showing Goldens for decades, talking about how things have changed, used to bathe and groom the dog the day before and not much beyond neat and clean. Have the changes evolved in the UK the same way?


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## Sweet Girl

Thanks for all the "open coat" definitions! I had never heard that term before (but I don't show).


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## Alaska7133

annef said:


> The link to the golden that is trimmed for the European shows does not demonstrate good trimming We do trim our dogs necks in the UK but they are not supposed to be shaved! It is done to make them look as if they have upper arm, leaving the hair long below the breast bone.I was hoping to add a photo to show you but can't seem to do it Annef


Ann if you could provide a photo that would help. I just did a search online and found the one in the link. I was trying to find a photo of a dog that was at a show, but couldn’t find one. The neck trimming thing is odd for us to see on this side of the pond.


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## GoldenCamper

Please correct me if I am wrong with my past and the one currently present of the 4 rescue Goldens I've had but I have noticed something.

I've had 2 "conformation" and 2 "field" types. The field types do not need grooming to be normal, the conformation type grow hair beyond belief. I mean my goodness the conformation type the hair never ends. If you don't cut it they end up looking like a Afghan hound.


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## Megora

Clearly have too much time on my hands, but here's this -

Pic#1 = cute collage of my dogs except the first who was all field lines (backyard bred ones, but field dogs going back). I have pics of Charmy before his kidneys really got shot to hell and his coat was profuse (and gorgeous). One of the first signs of his illness was his coat coming out in clumps. He had really sparse coat on his belly especially right off. Was one of those signs that we missed and never knew was a problem. 

But on topic - dog to the far left was my Danny towards the end of his life. He was almost 13 years old and his coat was miserable. There's stuff I know now and tools I have now which I wish I had back then. 

Dog to his right was Sammy who was the one with the worst coat ever. Very soft. We joked that he was like an oversized sussex spaniel. The coat was silky and prone to matting. 

And dogs to the right are my current 2 who ARE groomed regularly. I try to bathe once a week and they are groomed where they need to be groomed. The one dog would have shag rivaling that of setters hanging off his ears if I never groomed them. The other primarily needs his bib kept thinned out and trimmed close. Otherwise, he would get unbearably heavy in front like his big brother (Danny). 

IF you own a coated breed - it's common sense that grooming is involved. With our breed, we don't need to take our dogs to professionals to get groomed. Only basic grooming is needed for these dogs. Thinning up in spots and trimming up the feet and ears is all. 

Other pic is from a National a couple years ago. I'm showing what is typically done as far as necks. Left side is side and front views of the dogs. Every single dog pictured has had the fur on his or her neck thinned out. It's not as severe as I think many might imagine when looking at the drawing.


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## annef

Sorry I am useless at putting photos on here. We are not allowed to put anything in the coat, so UK dogs are bathed and dried usually the day before the show. On some dogs we use drying coats to try and keep the coat flat and most of us use blasters to dry the coat for speed. They are just brushed and combed at the show as there are no facilities for bathing or drying. If anyone can explain how to get photos from my Mac onto here I can show you!! Annef


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## annef

I have managed to put 2 photos in the files one under Annef labelled Kate in show trim and one in golden retriever adults labelled Callie as a veteran


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## Megora

@annef - I think it's because they need to be saved as .jpg files in order for you to upload.

Lovely dogs.


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## Ljilly28

Megora said:


> *shaking head* If the people who put this stuff out there all the time want to make an impact, they should just get back into dog showing themselves. Show the dogs they have the way they want to show them. Make a point by getting out there.
> 
> Some shows out there that have small entries because most are looking for majors and they know these shows never attract big handlers from out of town who build most majors....these are prime ground for those people who love to armchair quarterback about what they believe is happening in the show rings. If they bring the dogs, odds are they will win classes and compete for points. Or the very least have fun showing their dogs.
> 
> The frustrating point for me is that most puppies look like the dog picture on the left. They have minimal coats and are cute and fuzzy.... and a lot of them may win on any given day. Some pups may win their championships well before their adult coats grow.
> 
> And those dogs end up looking like the dogs on the right side pic - simply because by the time they are 4+ years old, their mature adult coats are growing in.
> 
> Here in the US we do NOT chop up all of the long feathers that would grow on a dog. The neck is not stripped to nothingness. The leg feathers are not trimmed. The hocks are not cut close. The tail is not shaped to resemble a setter's tail.
> 
> If you show AKC - most of the time, the preference for some of the diehard breeder-handlers is neatening up what the dog already has. And doing very minimal trimming on the dog's natural coat.
> 
> IF judges start making a point of selecting dogs with puppy coats, that will just encourage handlers to start trimming MORE on the adult dogs.
> 
> I already know at least one person who has talked about giving her boy a "puppy trim" which is literally trimming the leg feathers, mane, belly, etc so the outline of the dog is more like that on the left. This can be done regardless of what the dog was born with. And you would see handlers doing this if judges start expecting us to groom our dogs like they do overseas.


I couldn't agree more with this post. 

Adding to that, coat and presentation are on factor of myriad ones. Dentition. Tail set . Angulation. Topline. that is before even getting to the meaty questions of Type, structure , style, outline, movement.

Of course a judge should be fooled by a trimming job, but neither should the dog with the best outline and movement be thrown away bc of the grooming- which ever way it is bad under or over done.

A forum member here from my state out a GCH on her lovely bitch recently herself as an owner-handler by bathing once a week, keeping up with the grooming, and neatening ears and feet. She even left the whiskers on. Judges , unless they are horrid, usually are looking for something more in depth than presentation. 

Saying that I do agree there are some all breed judges from other groups like the toy group who don't know the standard very well and can be fooled . But.


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## Julie Timmons

jdavisryan said:


> I just wanted to thank you for posting this interesting piece. I've never shown a dog in the ring and don't want to offend any of the hard working people who do conformation, but I've always loved the look of a neatly trimmed but natural coat on a Golden. Very interesting reading.




I agree! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Altairss

Unfortunately not all judges are created equal and as they are humans after all, some do allow their own personal bias to effect judging. I took a handling seminar once, a weekend class on confirmation, our clinician was a Breeder/owner handler and all breed judge with some 20 years plus experience. The topic came up that sometimes Judges are handler judges and your presentation or who you were can effect how they judge your dog. I thought that was a bit odd and somewhat upsetting at the time. She also taught us some things to watch out for to see if we might have a handler judge 

A couple months ago I took a grooming class with a professional handler she was discussing ring presentation. She had done some interviews with some judges on their pet peeves. One judge gave this example. If your dog is a little easty westy (referring to dogs who toe out a bit with their front feet) and you do not fix that in the line up that he would not put the dog up. So to that judge your presentation of the dog was somewhat worth more then the merits of the dog. Thankfully there are a lot of good judges out there but this does happen.

Obviously we want to present our dogs to their fullest potential but yet it does seem like people are pushing the grooming farther and farther. All dogs have faults that's normal and obviously we should present them to their absolute best advantage. To me this article is more a nudge to everyone to not go to far away from what the breed is meant to be. I saw hair mouse, texturizer, bodifier, and hairspray to name a few going into the goldens coats at the last show. We are not supposed to use those things in the ring but its done. I saw people spraying hairspray ringside before going in. A well groomed dog can be beautiful. but how far is too far? And for neck stripping yes doing it on an older dog I can see to a reasonable degree but I saw it being done on young dogs under a year?


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## Goldens&Friesians

Altairss said:


> Unfortunately not all judges are created equal and as they are humans after all, some do allow their own personal bias to effect judging. I took a handling seminar once, a weekend class on confirmation, our clinician was a Breeder/owner handler and all breed judge with some 20 years plus experience. The topic came up that sometimes Judges are handler judges and your presentation or who you were can effect how they judge your dog. I thought that was a bit odd and somewhat upsetting at the time. She also taught us some things to watch out for to see if we might have a handler judge
> 
> A couple months ago I took a grooming class with a professional handler she was discussing ring presentation. She had done some interviews with some judges on their pet peeves. One judge gave this example. If your dog is a little easty westy (referring to dogs who toe out a bit with their front feet) and you do not fix that in the line up that he would not put the dog up. So to that judge your presentation of the dog was somewhat worth more then the merits of the dog. Thankfully there are a lot of good judges out there but this does happen.
> 
> Obviously we want to present our dogs to their fullest potential but yet it does seem like people are pushing the grooming farther and farther. All dogs have faults that's normal and obviously we should present them to their absolute best advantage. To me this article is more a nudge to everyone to not go to far away from what the breed is meant to be. I saw hair mouse, texturizer, bodifier, and hairspray to name a few going into the goldens coats at the last show. We are not supposed to use those things in the ring but its done. I saw people spraying hairspray ringside before going in. A well groomed dog can be beautiful. but how far is too far? And for neck stripping yes doing it on an older dog I can see to a reasonable degree but I saw it being done on young dogs under a year?


First let me preface this by saying I have never shown a dog in conformation. I do however have a friend who shows Tollers and when I told her I'd like to show goldens in conformation someday she said to pick a different breed because its impossible for a newbie/non-professional to owner handle a golden to a championship. She said she was helping a newbie in the Toller world and was able to point out to her the dog that should win and the dog that would win based on who the handler was (and she was right, by the way). I just think that's ridiculous! Aren't these dogs supposed to be judged on their conformation, breed type, movement, etc and not on who their handler is and how they are groomed? Shouldn't a judge be able to pick the best dog in the bunch even if it looks like an amateur groomed it? I show horses, but I no longer show in the halter classes for two reasons: one I just find them kinda boring-I'd rather be riding; and two horse show judges are the same way, apparently, as dog show judges. Halter classes for horses are the same thing as conformation classes for dogs-horses should be judged on conformation, breed type, movement, etc. Doesn't matter how nice your horse's conformation is, if you're not a well-known owner or trainer, your horse isn't getting looked at. Its the same in most of the riding classes to, but I can endure it better because at least I'm riding and not just leading my horse around! Anyway, I still want to try conformation someday-and with goldens too! I'm not taking my friend's advice to show a different breed because I've been around dozens of different breeds as a groomer and there just isn't anything that compares to a golden! I don't care if I never put a championship on the dog-I just want to learn and have fun! And if I do manage a championship some day, I'll have the satisfaction of knowing that I did it without hiring a handler and that if I could do it once, I can do it again!


----------



## Megora

Altairss said:


> To me this article is more a nudge to everyone to not go to far away from what the breed is meant to be. I saw hair mouse, texturizer, bodifier, and hairspray to name a few going into the goldens coats at the last show. We are not supposed to use those things in the ring but its done. I saw people spraying hairspray ringside before going in. A well groomed dog can be beautiful. but how far is too far?



Regarding bodifier - it's mixed in with water to give the dogs a little extra "body". It's what you do if you are not bathing the dog that day. It's spritzing a little into the coat, letting it set for a couple minutes and blowing the dog dry. 

Blowing a dog dry after a full bath takes about 30-40 minutes. 

Blowing a dog dry just doing the bodifier thing - takes about 10 minutes. 

Hairspray - you have to be careful using something like that because it's sticky and tacky. And the judges can feel that in the coat (heck I can't even stand having hairspray in my own hair). If you have a judge running his hand backwards to check if there's any product in the coat, you'll have a dead giveaway that you put hairspray or another "hold" product in there. And there ARE judges who are checking coats like that.

Only place I know people regularly use hairspray is on the feet and legs. Where the judges aren't touching. Mousse and texture "goop" goes into the feet and legs too. And powder.

Ringside - you have people spraying water into the coat? I'm still not sure why, but there is one handler out there who is very successful with the goldens and finishes them quickly enough and I've watched her spraying the dogs in the ring. I've been told it keeps the dogs cool in summer? But even if you are just misting the dogs, it's making them wet???? 

Other breeds are kinda worse for stuff they do ringside...

Shelties always have me dropping my jaw a little because you'll have all these tables set up outside the ring and handlers are putting powder and spraying the coats and all that right in front of the judge.


----------



## Sweet Girl

GoldenCamper said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong with my past and the one currently present of the 4 rescue Goldens I've had but I have noticed something.
> 
> I've had 2 "conformation" and 2 "field" types. The field types do not need grooming to be normal, the conformation type grow hair beyond belief. I mean my goodness the conformation type the hair never ends. If you don't cut it they end up looking like a Afghan hound.


Shala definitely is more fieldy in her coat - it is shorter and straight, dark, and she has less undercoat than more conformation types. I have been told she has a very correct coat, as she dries very quickly. I tell people all the time who ask that she is "wash and wear." I barely need to do anything to her for her to look clean and beautiful. Now, I DO brush her often, but that means a minute or two every day or so. Mostly, that's to keep her clean in the muddy spring and fall. I barely ever bathe her - just let the dirt fall off her, and brush. She is not at all a big shedder. I feel like I hit the jackpot with her - and I will probably never get a dog with as great a coat as hers again! :smile2:


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## Alaska7133

I'll never forget the show I was in a few years ago. I had a friend that also shows goldens. When she saw that our judge was an elderly gay man, she immediately changed her handler to a youngish cute man. Guess how well her dogs did in the ring? Did her dogs deserve to win their classes and take breed? Maybe. There weren't a lot of goldens in the show, the counts were low. But I think her tactics were unfortunately what it took to get what she wanted at that show. Will her tactics work with that judge every time? I don't know, I honestly didn't watch this judge much more at that show. I took home my red ribbon and thought about my choice to show my dog myself that day....


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## annef

Thank you for uploading the photos Both dogs are in show trimmed the photos were taken at a show
, one a veteran of 8 the other a youngster Annef


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## Alaska7133

annef said:


> Thank you for uploading the photos Both dogs are in show trimmed the photos were taken at a show
> , one a veteran of 8 the other a youngster Annef


Thanks for sharing Anne!


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## GoldenCamper

Sweet Girl said:


> Shala definitely is more fieldy in her coat - it is shorter and straight, dark, and she has less undercoat than more conformation types. I have been told she has a very correct coat, as she dries very quickly. I tell people all the time who ask that she is "wash and wear." I barely need to do anything to her for her to look clean and beautiful. Now, I DO brush her often, but that means a minute or two every day or so. Mostly, that's to keep her clean in the muddy spring and fall. I barely ever bathe her - just let the dirt fall off her, and brush. She is not at all a big shedder. I feel like I hit the jackpot with her - and I will probably never get a dog with as great a coat as hers again! :smile2:


Thanks for answering my question  My fieldy types just shake off the dirt too. My conformation types did too but keeping them in shape was more work.

As a humble pet owner I do not understand the for show stuff. Maybe I want to see a dog just be a dog not dressed up and pretty.

I have the tools and keep mine in fine shape. None of them ever would pass a judge if I tried but judges have their own criteria.


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## GoldenCamper

Alaska7133 said:


> I'll never forget the show I was in a few years ago. I had a friend that also shows goldens. When she saw that our judge was an elderly gay man, she immediately changed her handler to a youngish cute man. Guess how well her dogs did in the ring? Did her dogs deserve to win their classes and take breed? Maybe. There weren't a lot of goldens in the show, the counts were low. But I think her tactics were unfortunately what it took to get what she wanted at that show. Will her tactics work with that judge every time? I don't know, I honestly didn't watch this judge much more at that show. I took home my red ribbon and thought about my choice to show my dog myself that day....


You just described the show circuit to a T. People go where they can win with a their preferred the judge of the day. I only started learning of this about a decade ago. I also agree with the GRCA putting down the hammer.


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## Sweet Girl

GoldenCamper said:


> Thanks for answering my question  My fieldy types just shake off the dirt too. My conformation types did too but keeping them in shape was more work.
> 
> As a humble pet owner I do not understand the for show stuff. Maybe I want to see a dog just be a dog not dressed up and pretty.
> 
> I have the tools and keep mine in fine shape. None of them ever would pass a judge if I tried but judges have their own criteria.


It is definitely all subjective. Even when we did our CCA - which Shala passed - the three Golden Retriever expert judges were all so different in their evaluations of her. At the time, I didn't know any of the judges. Since, I have learned that one is more involved in hunt, and the other two are more involved in conformation. Shala's best scores came from the hunt person, who clearly probably had more experience with her smaller size, and fieldy coated type. But it is SO interesting that one of the judges said she had perfect feet, while another said they could be more round (or was it less round?), one said her snout and the bridgey part between her eyes could be longer, while another said she had a beautiful, perfectly proportioned head. I could get out her judge scores and go on - those are the ones I remember off the top of my head. I loved it - I learned so much from the experience. But I also learned how subjective judging is. 

My girl would never make it in the ring, either. She is too dark for what judges look for here. Probably too small, too (even though she meets standard). But I think she is beautiful! :smile2:


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## GoldenCamper

If only Lord Tweedmouth was here to give advice nowadays


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## Megora

Sweet Girl said:


> It is definitely all subjective. Even when we did our CCA - which Shala passed - the three Golden Retriever expert judges were all so different in their evaluations of her...... I also learned how subjective judging is.
> 
> My girl would never make it in the ring, either. She is too dark for what judges look for here. Probably too small, too (even though she meets standard).


If she meets breed standard - then she could be shown. Assuming she's intact and full registration in AKC. CKC allows spayed dogs to show though? (or I thought).

Have not seen recent pictures of Shala, but if she looks anything like her half brother (who I have seen in the show ring), then there's no guard at the door preventing you from showing her. And actually, if you show AKC, some of the grooming is designed to help some dogs who are smaller or slighter. Grooming can fix any problems with the feet, etc... 

Even coloring shouldn't be a total block... Zaniri has a lot of dark goldens - and they get Canadian championships on their dogs. You might have to get out of Ontario, but.... And depending on the judge in AKC, you could pick and choose who to show to. 

No dogs out there are perfect.

About judges being subjective, I think they are human beings too. There's some judges out there who you can count on being fair and unfazed by who is holding the leash. They are not looking at the people. 

Other judges slip into Junior showmanship mode and add the look, style, and proficiency of the handler to the list of things that could help or hurt a dog in their ring. Some judges will not forgive a sloppy handler...

Other judges... are a mystery.

One judge this past weekend.... looking him up before entering under him, I read that he focuses the most on movement and moving parts on a dog and will forgive a dog who is not "all there" on a given day. Meaning a dog that isn't stacking or showing well, but who has good movement - this judge is said to be able to find that good moving dog.

But in the golden ring, he seemed LESS INTERESTED in movement and more interested in the best trained dogs out there. So he was requesting that everyone "walk" the dogs from point A to point B. And for those of us whose dogs went to the end of the leash trotting even with us walking, we got a talking to from him. 

This judge ended up selecting the big showy dogs in each breed I watching him judge. Nice dogs though.

CCA's can be "confusing" for the reasons you gave. Some years, I've heard of the CCA tests being more lenient and favorable towards field bred dogs. And then you had a huge drop out after years when the judges were brutal towards everyone, including the field bred dogs. IF the judges are too lenient, it's a vanity title for some people for that reason.... but some people want the judges to be more lenient and get bent out of shape....


----------



## Sweet Girl

Megora said:


> If she meets breed standard - then she could be shown. Assuming she's intact and full registration in AKC. CKC allows spayed dogs to show though? (or I thought).
> 
> Have not seen recent pictures of Shala, but if she looks anything like her half brother (who I have seen in the show ring), then there's no guard at the door preventing you from showing her. And actually, if you show AKC, some of the grooming is designed to help some dogs who are smaller or slighter. Grooming can fix any problems with the feet, etc...
> 
> Even coloring shouldn't be a total block... Zaniri has a lot of dark goldens - and they get Canadian championships on their dogs. You might have to get out of Ontario, but.... And depending on the judge in AKC, you could pick and choose who to show to.
> 
> No dogs out there are perfect.
> 
> About judges being subjective, I think they are human beings too. There's some judges out there who you can count on being fair and unfazed by who is holding the leash. They are not looking at the people.
> 
> Other judges slip into Junior showmanship mode and add the look, style, and proficiency of the handler to the list of things that could help or hurt a dog in their ring. Some judges will not forgive a sloppy handler...
> 
> Other judges... are a mystery.
> 
> One judge this past weekend.... looking him up before entering under him, I read that he focuses the most on movement and moving parts on a dog and will forgive a dog who is not "all there" on a given day. Meaning a dog that isn't stacking or showing well, but who has good movement - this judge is said to be able to find that good moving dog.
> 
> But in the golden ring, he seemed LESS INTERESTED in movement and more interested in the best trained dogs out there. So he was requesting that everyone "walk" the dogs from point A to point B. And for those of us whose dogs went to the end of the leash trotting even with us walking, we got a talking to from him.
> 
> This judge ended up selecting the big showy dogs in each breed I watching him judge. Nice dogs though.
> 
> CCA's can be "confusing" for the reasons you gave. Some years, I've heard of the CCA tests being more lenient and favorable towards field bred dogs. And then you had a huge drop out after years when the judges were brutal towards everyone, including the field bred dogs. IF the judges are too lenient, it's a vanity title for some people for that reason.... but some people want the judges to be more lenient and get bent out of shape....


Interesting. Thanks for this. I'm not sure if you can show CanadianKC with a non-intact dog (Shala is spayed) - my assumption has always been no. I'll ask my hunt friends who show their dogs when I see them this weekend. Maybe Continental Kennel Club (also confusingly CKC) is the one that allows non-intact dogs to be shown.

I know all three CCA judges DID think Shala moved very well (one thought she and I had done ring work, based on how she moved). You're right about Ontario - for sure we could enter, but we would not win here, just based on what is favoured in terms of colour here right now. Shala meets standard thanks to the one-inch leeway. She is 20.5 inches tall, about 45 pounds, and a definite red head. Very well proportioned, but just overall, very petite. And very beautiful in my opinion!! lol It's possible it's an Ontario versus further out west thing in terms of colour in the ring. 

I love the Zaniri dogs I have seen (Shala's younger sister is being bred to one in Calgary, which is going to make some amazing puppies!). Funnily enough, one of our CCA judges was one of the two co-founders of Zaniri - she was the one who scored Shala highest. She is an incredibly knowledgeable person in the Golden world. I could sit and listen to her all day. 

Apologies if my comment about judges being subjective came across as snarky - I truly didn't mean it to. I actually found it interesting, and it was sort of just a learning moment. I'm actually planning on doing another CCA just to hear what three more experienced Golden people have to say about my dog. I learned so much about her that day. But it's like any judged sport - there IS a standard, but there's also artistic impression :smile2:


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## TheZ's

When Gracie went for her CCA I was a little apprehensive about how the judges would view her coat. She just doesn't have the thickness and length of coat and heavy feathering that many of the successful show Goldens seem to have and is a mid-gold color not the pale gold that seems to be favored. Much to my surprise she received very high marks for her coat and I remember one of the evaluators saying "this is what a Golden's coat is supposed to be like". She dries quickly, doesn't pick up a lot of debris in her coat, and doesn't require much grooming. She's a mix of performance, field and conformation Goldens.


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## GoldenMom999

Waterproof jacket versus open coat....


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## Megora

Sweet Girl said:


> Interesting. Thanks for this. I'm not sure if you can show CanadianKC with a non-intact dog (Shala is spayed) - my assumption has always been no. I'll ask my hunt friends who show their dogs when I see them this weekend. Maybe Continental Kennel Club (also confusingly CKC) is the one that allows non-intact dogs to be shown.


I meant CKC, not the fraud thingy. 

Altered dog classes are offered as an optional class. 

As far as what that "means" (can you compete for points, etc) - that might be something that somebody more familiar with CKC should answer.


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## Alaska7133

GoldenMom999 said:


> Waterproof jacket versus open coat....


Perfect example! Push (on the left) and I'm not sure who is on the right. 
Push: Pedigree: Can. Triple CH FTCH AFTCH OTCH Firemark's Push Comes to Shove Can. WCX Am. *** OS


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## Megora

Alaska7133 said:


> Perfect example! Push (on the left) and I'm not sure who is on the right.
> Push: Pedigree: Can. Triple CH FTCH AFTCH OTCH Firemark's Push Comes to Shove Can. WCX Am. *** OS


The dog on the right is easily found by doing a google image search... looks like it could be an open coat? Could also be a misted coat + the dog shook himself. 

Below pic is the same dog. Coat looks fine there.

Which is why it's probably not a good idea posting negative comments about other people's dogs - meaning people not present. 

Please if you have a dog with an absolute open coat, post that. Don't post images of even lesser known dogs and critique the pictures. 

Nothing worse that posting something without knowing the dog or the owner, and years later hoping and praying that the owner never sees what you posted (because you didn't know better back then). :surprise:


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## ArkansasGold

One of the owners of the dog on the right is a GRCA breeder judge.


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## GoldenMom999

Megora said:


> The dog on the right is easily found by doing a google image search... looks like it could be an open coat? Could also be a misted coat + the dog shook himself.
> 
> Which is why it's probably not a good idea posting negative comments about other people's dogs - meaning people not present.
> 
> Please if you have a dog with an absolute open coat, post that. Don't post images of even lesser known dogs and critique the pictures.
> 
> Nothing worse that posting something without knowing the dog or the owner, and years later hoping and praying that the owner never sees what you posted (because you didn't know better back then). :surprise:


I posted an example of a clear example of each type of coat for people who are learning...no judgement, no negative comments....public pictures. I believe that is appropriate.


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## Megora

GoldenMom999 said:


> I posted an example of a clear example of each type of coat for people who are learning...no judgement, no negative comments....public pictures. I believe that is appropriate.


And I'm saying that 5 years down the road, you might feel really bad about critiquing a dog that you did not see in person, did not put your hands on, and did not talk to the owner. 

And even if you know specific things about some dogs out there - it's tactful and cautious to not post on public forums where stuff stays out there. Because only people who should criticize specific dogs are the owners. 

Public pictures, etc... <= That does not mean anything. Anything you post publicly, is public. And personally speaking, that doesn't mean I want somebody taking pictures off my public side of my fb page and posting critiques HERE. Likewise, if I had a website, where the picture you posted came from. 

The only people that I'm OK with critiquing are those who are kinda asking for it based on what they are posting. IE, greeders who post ridiculous information. And even there, there's a fine line.

I'm just saying because we all grow up a little and regret stuff said prior to being able to put our feet in other people's shoes in certain cases, or meeting and getting to know some people personally and meeting the dogs in question. Personally speaking, the golden retriever show world is a very small world.


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## GoldenMom999

Megora said:


> And I'm saying that 5 years down the road, you might feel really bad about critiquing a dog that you did not see in person, did not put your hands on, and did not talk to the owner.
> 
> And even if you know specific things about some dogs out there - it's tactful and cautious to not post on public forums where stuff stays out there. Because only people who should criticize specific dogs are the owners.
> 
> Public pictures, etc... <= That does not mean anything. Anything you post publicly, is public. And personally speaking, that doesn't mean I want somebody taking pictures off my public side of my fb page and posting critiques HERE. Likewise, if I had a website, where the picture you posted came from.
> 
> The only people that I'm OK with critiquing are those who are kinda asking for it based on what they are posting. IE, greeders who post ridiculous information. And even there, there's a fine line.
> 
> I'm just saying because we all grow up a little and regret stuff said prior to being able to put our feet in other people's shoes in certain cases, or meeting and getting to know some people personally and meeting the dogs in question. Personally speaking, the golden retriever show world is a very small world.


Not critiquing or criticizing...posting an example for people (I assume people who are new) who do not know what the difference looks like between a waterproof jacket and open coat.


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## Megora

GoldenMom999 said:


> Not critiquing or criticizing...posting an example for people (I assume people who are new) who do not know what the difference looks like between a waterproof jacket and open coat.


Then post images of your own dogs.

Posting images of other people's dogs and saying they have an open coat is a critique of the dog and is going to be offensive to the breeder/owner.


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## Alaska7133

Megora you make many excellent points. I should not have made any comments about the dogs in the photos.


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## GoldenMom999

Megora said:


> Then post images of your own dogs.
> 
> Posting images of other people's dogs and saying they have an open coat is a critique of the dog and is going to be offensive to the breeder/owner.


I disagree. I did not post a picture of a dog in a show ring, just a picture of an attractive dog who at that moment clearly demonstrates what an open coat looks like. And I will continue to post information I feel is helpful and relevant...regardless of your attempts to bully me.


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## Anele

I know who that dog is! I have always thought he was lovely and correct, and I still do.

This is my amateur opinion re: the grooming debate.

Dog showing is tough, period. There is a lot of money to be spent on a few minutes in the ring. 

The golden ring is, from what I have been told even by people who don't show goldens-- THE most competitive. 

Mostly you see professional handlers. They do a beautiful job showing dogs, and I would expect them to, as it's their profession! (Just as I would hope a teacher or surgeon would do an excellent job.) 

Now, if part of winning is presenting a dog groomed a certain way, which paid handler is going to risk their client's dog losing by going against this? 

The ring is filled with gorgeous dogs. Any dog who loses, loses to beautiful dogs. But all dogs have some issue. Grooming may be able to create a better silhouette in a dog who is stacked, but not when the dog is moving.

My take is-- buy the kind of dog you think best meets the standard. Support breeders who you feel are accomplishing this goal. Then, if you feel your dog is a great example of the breed, go show! It's not enough to sit on the sidelines and complain about what kinds of dogs are in the ring. Be an advocate for the breed! As they say, "be the change."


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## Megora

GoldenMom999 said:


> I disagree. I did not post a picture of a dog in a show ring, just a picture of an attractive dog who at that moment clearly demonstrates what an open coat looks like....


GoldenMom999 - 

I was merely responding here about somebody posting a picture of a dog that I recognized. And it was pretty easy to find where the picture came from originally. Even with the dog's name (which is in the top right corner of the original picture) cropped out. It might be you got the picture off pinterest or somewhere else, but it came from a breeder's website. 

Stuff like this would be better shared privately if it isn't your own dog. That's all I'm saying.


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy

GoldenMom999 said:


> I disagree. I did not post a picture of a dog in a show ring, just a picture of an attractive dog who at that moment clearly demonstrates what an open coat looks like. And I will continue to post information I feel is helpful and relevant...regardless of your attempts to bully me.


I'm not a breeder, but if I was, I wouldn't love if someone posted a picture in a public forum incorrectly labeling something about my dog to be incorrect. Obviously, its a free country. This is the internet, so everyone gets to have an opinion about everyone else's opinion. 

If anything, it seems to me that what the photos of those two dogs side by side best illustrates is the difference in traditional looks between field vs conformation goldens. And the range of feathering within the breed, of which the dog on the right has very little (or has had it trimmed). 

I'm not convinced that in the first group of pictures the dog on the right even has an open coat. Maybe? But I think Megora's point about misting could also be correct--the coat looks a tad damp in the way that the hairs on the sides are coming together. Or the dog had just blown dry etc for a pretty picture. One dog is in the ring, and the other clearly isn't. And in the second picture the dog's coat looks fine. 

Megora-- I'm an uneducated pet person (but one who would like to show in conformation one day so please educate me--its so great to have you all as a resource), but isn't determining whether a double coated dog like a GR has an "open coat" or "closed coat" is best assessed by up-close visual inspection at both parts of the coat, length, feel and weight of the guard hairs, and also feeling texture etc? I feel like every dog gets a little more fluffy after a blow dry or groomed in various ways--so does my hair if I blow dry it without heat. So can you really tell from a photo?

For example, Piper's definitely has the wash and wear/waterproof jacket look (also, she was about 1.5yrs, and a female). But in Dec we saw a new groomer who shaved off all the feathering on legs and belly--literally with a trimmer--who blew out her coat and put products in it in such a way that she looked like a cream puff on toothpicks. It was the one time I got to giggle about calling her an actual "English Cream." She gets fuzzy if I blow dry her, but not like that. It REALLY looked like an open coat. But she doesn't have an open coat.


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## Ljilly28

GoldenMom999 said:


> I posted an example of a clear example of each type of coat for people who are learning...no judgement, no negative comments....public pictures. I believe that is appropriate.


Not okay to present photos of other people's dogs without their permission


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## Megora

Piper_the_goldenpuppy said:


> isn't determining whether a double coated dog like a GR has an "open coat" or "closed coat" is best assessed by up-close visual inspection at both parts of the coat, length, feel and weight of the guard hairs, and also feeling texture etc? I feel like every dog gets a little more fluffy after a blow dry or groomed in various ways--so does my hair if I blow dry it without heat. So can you really tell from a photo?


It's kinda a known thing that some people blow the coats open on some dogs. They do it to make it look like the dogs have more bone or are more substantial - I have seen this while showing. You can tell by looking even 10 feet away. Sometimes it's young dogs who are in-between coats, which might be why judges give the dogs a pass.... 

The coats might not be standing right out like a pom or chow, but. 

It is a known issue that people complain about.


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## Wenderwoman

Megora said:


> IF judges start making a point of selecting dogs with puppy coats, that will just encourage handlers to start trimming MORE on the adult dogs.


No offense but my dog is an adult that looks just like that picture. However, she does not have papers and will never be in a show. Maybe they will just trim more but that means their dog isn't the ideal that they are looking for because, clearly, there are dogs that have those exact coats without any trimming whatsoever. In that case, could the breeders be doing a disservice by breeding the wrong coated dogs? Because my dog came from a hunter that has dogs for hunting that happened to have a litter and he just wanted to find good homes. She's a great dog.

Truthfully though, I don't like the idea that if I want a dog from a breeder it has to adhere to some show standards. I just want a healthy, good natured dog. So, the idea of breeding and papers bothers me a little. I get breeding healthy dogs. I don't get breeding trophy dogs.


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## Kmullen

Wenderwoman said:


> No offense but my dog is an adult that looks just like that picture. However, she does not have papers and will never be in a show. Maybe they will just trim more but that means their dog isn't the ideal that they are looking for because, clearly, there are dogs that have those exact coats without any trimming whatsoever. In that case, could the breeders be doing a disservice by breeding the wrong coated dogs? Because my dog came from a hunter that has dogs for hunting that happened to have a litter and he just wanted to find good homes. She's a great dog.
> 
> Truthfully though, I don't like the idea that if I want a dog from a breeder it has to adhere to some show standards. I just want a healthy, good natured dog. So, the idea of breeding and papers bothers me a little. I get breeding healthy dogs. I don't get breeding trophy dogs.


It isn't adhering to "show" standards. It is adhering to the Golden retriever standards. Breeders should breed to the standard. I do not think there is a debate on that. "Some" breeders want to breed to win in the ring, but I think we would all agree that this is wrong.


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## Megora

Wenderwoman said:


> So, the idea of breeding and papers bothers me a little. I get breeding healthy dogs. I don't get breeding trophy dogs.


Here's the small tiny thing that I'm going to chip in as somebody that does show my dog and I'm around a lot of people who show their dogs + kinda pick choose based on how successful the dogs are in the show ring (or other areas).

Healthy dogs = a big deal. But that's also setting the bar low. It basically is a general want and need BEFORE breed selection. It does even figure into breed selection, as well. 

Personally speaking - my family loves Great Danes and Cavaliers (talk about complete opposites!). But would never purchase either breed because of the perceived health issues. With cavaliers, we actually had a breeder tell me and my sister that there was no way to get a healthy dog who would not die from heart problems early on or down the road. And Great Danes are unfortunately bred to such extremes that they are more short-lived than any other breed.  

Golden retrievers get that first selection over those other breeds because of health, believe it or not. Given a choice between a dog who might only live to be 6-8 years old and one who you can expect to at least live 11 years - it's an easy choice. 

If you ever lost a dog early (which I have), health is a PRETTY HUGE DEAL. But it isn't the only one. 

Breed selection itself is a pretty big deal. And not just breed selection, but literally somebody looking at a breed standard and knowing exactly what should be there in a dog. 

Why not ask for more attributes in a breeding dog prior to breeding them?

Calling a dog a "trophy dog" is meant to denigrate the dog and all the work that has been put into it.... I know. And a lot of people do that when it comes to show or working dogs for a variety of reasons - some which are pretty sad. 

But conformation (the whole purpose of the sport) is intended to put the lines down as far as what these dogs should look like. 

Get into conformation and more than any other sport, you have people critiquing toplines, movement, expression, shape and so on of the dogs and comparing them against the breed standard.

There are judges who do not understand the breed standard and they make crazy choices out there. We all know that.

But at the basic, we expect the judge to make his selections based on him comparing the dogs in the ring against his idea of what should be there based on the breed standards. 

Because golden retrievers are a very polished/pro handled breed, majority of the dogs in the ring have the same style and look. There are no pro handlers going out there with dogs who have clear faults that would stand out a mile. 

You see these faults in OTHER sports. 

You actually see them in other breeds who do not have the same level of competition.

I was watching ringside with another breed and had to chuckle a little bit to see the look on the judge's face when this chick brought a dog out there and it was like DOG PADDLING all around the ring. This was a sporting breed similar to goldens where you expect the dogs to move forward and efficiently.

The flippy-floppy-paddling movement is actually "encouraged" in other sports because it is fun to watch. Obedience people get pretty excited to see that movement because it's viewed as engagement from the dog. It means their heads are up and so on. 

But there's structure issues which cause that movement. It's not just a spunky dog picking up his feet because his head is cranked all the way up. 

When a dog has this movement whether the head is way up or set normally with the dog looking forward. You know there's something causing that abnormal movement. 

These are types of things which you rarely to never see in golden retrievers in a competitive area. I've literally only seen one dog out there who had much more subtle movement flaws (he was paddling just not that severe). That other dog had pretty big names behind him and was a beautiful dog, so you could see why somebody paid a handler to take this dog across country for shows. Have no idea if he has any points, but the judges I saw that weekend all dumped him probably because of the movement. 

My point is that showing dogs is about more than getting the hairdos right and prancing around the ring. 

There's people who get really down on the sport of conformation because they have very functional dogs who lack in certain areas preventing them from competing in the sport. Like - the dogs lack sufficient coat. Or the dogs have a little head between two high set big ears. There's odds and ends types of faults which prevent people from getting back into showing. The dogs might be DQ because of size as well. 

But those dogs being shown are basically very typey.... and in most cases, they produce very typey puppies. 

So you might be spending $2000 on a pup. Which might have you weeping over your bank account and banging the head on the wall, but you know the quality of the pup you are purchasing. Odds are strong that the pup will grow up inheriting attributes from either the parents or dogs well behind the parents.

My boy that I show... he looks like his great-grandfather. He's actually the spitting imagine of his great-grandfather. Random big name people in the breed have come up and gotten all excited because he looks like the dog they really liked back then.

Might add, I was talking with a friend this past weekend about her current/most recent litter of puppies who were all just gorgeous. The sire she chose for the litter is a champion boy who I swear every litter he lends his charms to turn out to be very typey and nice. You see nice heads on most of the pups. <= If I were right now in a position to go forth and select a puppy based on the sire, I'd chase around looking for a litter sired by him. 

The whole style and type is the reason why people do conformation or protect the sport along those lines. 

It's also the reason why people do not like the sport. It because they do not want to be limited by a breed standard. And conformation forces them to color within the lines of a breed standard.

Second point, papers are pretty important because among else, it is meant to be the road that people have to stay on while claiming to breed purebred dogs. It keeps people from going off road and getting sloppy. 

Among else, random people can be no judge of whether a dog is purebred or not. Just like random people can be no judge of whether a dog is quality bred (meaning all that coat and structure stuff). 

I've heard people say this is "snobbery" and they take offense to people not giving their pet dogs just dues for being cute, pretty, or awesome. And good lord, there's some people pushing for pet shows where there are no winners or losers or whatnot. Which if you are older than 10 years old.... and even there....good lord. *facepalm*


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## Jeffrey354

jdavisryan said:


> I just wanted to thank you for posting this interesting piece. I've never shown a dog in the ring and don't want to offend any of the hard working people who do conformation, but I've always loved the look of a neatly trimmed but natural coat on a Golden. Very interesting reading.


Love the article.Thank you


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