# Grass Valley Breeder?



## ratdog33 (Nov 30, 2017)

Hello everyone. My wife and I are looking for a new addition to our family. We have looked a few dogs in our area and settled on a couple of potential breeders. Has anyone heard of a breeder by the name of Judeth Crom? Google searches don't come up with much, though she seems to have all the right health clearances. please advise.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

ratdog33 said:


> Hello everyone. My wife and I are looking for a new addition to our family. We have looked a few dogs in our area and settled on a couple of potential breeders. Has anyone heard of a breeder by the name of Judeth Crom? Google searches don't come up with much, though she seems to have all the right health clearances. please advise.


It might help if you give a kennel name or link to the OFA pages for her dogs and the region she is in . Goldens are a small world, if she competes in some way with her dogs chances are someone here will know her or know of her. If you'd like help verifying the clearances, give the registered names of the parents of the litters. Sometimes clearances can "seem" to be there but then someone with decades of experience looks at them and spots some red flags and it turns out that the breeder is cutting corners. May not be the case with this breeder, but it's always nice to have a little help.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Pedigree: Sophie My Beautiful Sophie (no clearances)
Pedigree: Sady The Lady II (no clearances) 
Pedigree: Oh My! O-La-La Pretty Fancy (https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1665939 inadequate cardiac, eyes out of date)
Pedigree: My Rock And Roll Baby (https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1617869 inadequate cardiac, eyes out of date)
Pedigree: Jack The Great (no clearances)
Pedigree: Coco Tahoe's Lucky Lady (no clearances)
these dogs are all owned by a J Crom. I dk if she is that person.


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## ratdog33 (Nov 30, 2017)

Thank you for the replies. Here are the names of the dam and sire... Dam- My Snowmist Pearl / Sire- My Rowdy Yates.


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## ratdog33 (Nov 30, 2017)

She is in Grass Valley, California. She doesn't have a kennel name, but the dam and sire of this litter appear to have all of the OFA clearances, and she has the distinction of "Bred With HEART." Is there something else I should look for? Here is a link to her ad on the AKC Marketplace... My English Cream Golden Retrievers - Puppies For Sale


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

ratdog33 said:


> Thank you for the replies. Here are the names of the dam and sire... Dam- My Snowmist Pearl / Sire- My Rowdy Yates. ...the dam and sire of this litter appear to have all of the OFA clearances...


The sire and dam do NOT have their clearances in order.

Sire, My Rowdy Yates was bred underage and has no hip clearance, no elbow clearance, and his eye clearance is out of date. https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1849722

Dam, Snowmist Pearl has an inadequate heart clearance (not by a cardiologist) and the eye clearance is out of date. https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1780227

And that whole "bred with HEART" thing is a big scam. It requires nothing except that you have registered one litter within the last five years and that you "promise" to adhere to AKC standards. It's a marketing tool, a vanity distinction, which is often used by greeders who actually do not breed ethically. 

Based on what I see from this breeding, I would never, ever buy a dog from this so-called "breeder." She has no website, no Facebook page, and no information about her dogs or her breeding program. I'm very involved in the Golden world in California, which is a fairly tight community, and I've never heard of this breeder or any of her dogs. Neither sire nor dam is entered in k9data, the database for Golden Retrievers. Neither sire nor dam is AKC titled in anything, and I can't find any other dog that appears to be hers (starting with the "My" prefix) that has an AKC title.

This, in my humble opinion and based on the limited information I have, appears to have all the red flags of an unethical greeder: Advertises English Cream Goldens; breeds dogs underage and without required health clearances; does not compete or prove the worth of her dogs; has not entered her dogs' pedigree information in the k9data database; has no website and no Facebook page with information about her dogs or breeding program; the claim "Many major champions in their pedigrees from Europe, Canada and USA" is exactly the phony-baloney language used by greeders to make people believe they are getting a quality dog when they are not; and she specifically claims that the parents of this litter have all their core clearances when they do not.

I would run, not walk, away from this apparent greeder.

Obviously, more or different information might affect my opinion, but going on everything I can see, there is not one proper thing done by this woman.


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## Pammie (Jan 22, 2011)

I am just stopping in to say Hi, wish you luck in finding a good breeder and say that I live in Grass Valley!


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## ratdog33 (Nov 30, 2017)

Thank you so much for your response... this is alarming. We thought we had done our homework. We have a preliminary report on the hips and elbows for the sire. I have attached the report. Does this make any difference? We really appreciate your input.


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## ratdog33 (Nov 30, 2017)

Hi, Pammie... thank you!


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

ratdog33 said:


> Thank you so much for your response... this is alarming. We thought we had done our homework. We have a preliminary report on the hips and elbows for the sire. I have attached the report. Does this make any difference? We really appreciate your input.


Not to me it would not. Preliminary reports are not OFA certifications. The process for actual certifications requires a dog to be mature (24 months or older) and have the X-rays reviewed by three orthopedic evaluators. Preliminary reports are used to take a peek ahead of actual certifications. Only one evaluator make the decision on prelims. Sometimes prelims are done because there is a suspected issue or as a tool to decide if a breeder is going to invest the money and travel it takes to title. Sadly unethical breeders try to present this as a “clearance”. 

If you read the report it clearly states a preliminary must be followed up by the actual certifications at 24 months or older. 

His were done at 13 months when he was still a puppy. His ratings might be the same at 24 months or they could be Dysplastic. I have seen dogs with normal prelims fail their actual certifications. 

Also his heart certification is deficient. A cardiologist is needed for Goldens because we have the silent killer SAS in our breed. I feel this is even more important for Europe’s pedigrees since heart testing is not as common overseas and frankly the Practitioner certifications behind him are even less accurate that the Specialist he has. 

So when all is said and done, his deficient heart, expired eyes and prelim hips and elbows means he actually has none of the certifications he should for a breeding dog. :frown2:


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

You can do SO much better than this breeder. If you'd like some assistance with locating and ethical breeder, you could start a new thread giving information about what you're looking for in a Golden and what kind of things you're interested in doing with him for fun. You can also use the search feature at the top of the page and it will bring up all previous threads on any given subject. You can get so much good information this way.


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## ratdog33 (Nov 30, 2017)

Thank you all for your time, and replies. I apparently have a lot to learn! I came across a breeder’s website that has a dog that has won championships, and has sired puppies recently, but his description states he has “prelims.” When I looked him up on the OFA website, it only shows a certificate for cardiac.... https://www.classicheritagegoldenretrievers.com/ace 
Am I missing something, or is this simply another case where the dog shouldn’t have been bred?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Welcome to the disturbing and often dishonest world of profit driven “color” breeders. 

If you search for breeders using the marketing term “English Cream” you will find breeder after breeder clearly making choices that are based on profit, convenience and ease. Sure, you will hear big talk about health being important but decisions like breeding under age dogs, breeding with only preliminary reports, failing to get to a Cardiologist and settling for a pet vet, calling things that are not certifications “clearances” like Vet letters or claims of not needing testing because their dogs have no issues shows that talk is all for show. 

If health is important to you, I would recommend making that the priority of your search above color. Contact your local Golden Retriever Club or better yet get out to some shows or events. You are much more likely to connect with responsible breeders that way. 

A bit on those “amazing” Championships that stud dog has. They were earned through an organization that is basically pay for title. As long as the dog doesn’t have one of our three breed disqualification faults, every dog entered will walk away an International Champion in one weekend or even one day. UKC or better yet AKC Championships are hard to earn and only one dog walks away from each show with a credit towards earning a title. 

I will attach some infographics and screenshots that you may find helpful. 

Good luck in your search.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

ratdog33 said:


> Thank you all for your time, and replies. I apparently have a lot to learn! I came across a breeder’s website that has a dog that has won championships, and has sired puppies recently, but his description states he has “prelims.” When I looked him up on the OFA website, it only shows a certificate for cardiac.... https://www.classicheritagegoldenretrievers.com/ace
> Am I missing something, or is this simply another case where the dog shouldn’t have been bred?


You are correct that the only actual OFA certification is his heart. He is old enough for the actual OFA certifications but they are choosing not to. Someone recently made an excellent point, I am not sure I have the wording verbatim. The true cost of health certifications is not the exam or the submission to OFA. It is in the consequence of finding your dog failed and then making the hard and expensive decision to spay or neuter a dog out of your program. 

That is why so many unethical breeders want to do prelims or PennHIP on puppies. The older a dog gets the higher the chance for Orthopedic changes that would trigger a failure.


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## ratdog33 (Nov 30, 2017)

Thank you so much for sharing this info, LJack. It sounds like I need to take some time to educate myself before jumping into this. Color is not important to me, I like them all. I’m more concerned with health as I recently lost a beloved dog that was far too young, and I want to lessen my chances of that happening again.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

ratdog33 said:


> Thank you so much for sharing this info, LJack. It sounds like I need to take some time to educate myself before jumping into this. Color is not important to me, I like them all. I’m more concerned with health as I recently lost a beloved dog that was far too young, and I want to lessen my chances of that happening again.


Based on your comment here, I suspect that you are looking at English Creams because of the greeders touting that English Creams have lower incidences of cancer, which is not true at all. All goldens have the same risk for cancer, regardless of if they are English Cream or not. 

Instead, start shopping for breeders who title their dogs in conformation and/or performance. And you can also look at K9DATA.COM Home Page to look at their dogs and the longevity behind their dogs. 

We have some fabulous members and breeders here who would be more than happy to help you find a reputable breeder near you, interpret their clearances, and the longevity behind their lines. But remember, even with longevity in the lines, no reputable breeder can guarantee against cancer. 

Things you can do to help try to mitigate the early onset of cancer is to allow your puppy to mature to 2 years before spay or neuter (those hormones are very important part of their health). If you get a male, at least consider keeping them intact if you feel you have the management skills to keep them from getting loose and breeding with a random girl in heat. 

Keep them lean and athletic - obesity leads to cancer - and even 5 to 10 lbs overweight increases the risk of cancer. We are probably almost on the obsessive side with Noah's weight. A few weeks ago, his waist was starting to disappear - and I know that my boyfriend was probably getting more heavy handed with the morning meal (he feeds in the a.m., I feed in the p.m.). Mentioned it to him, and he dialed it back and Noah's waist has been found again. 

Consider titering instead of yearly vaccinations after the first year of puppy vaccines and the 1st year booster. Rabies are required, but see about getting them on a 3 year protocol. 

Supplement their meals with steamed and puree'd fresh veggies. 

These are just a few ideas. You just do the best you can and love them with all your heart for every day that they are part of your life. 

Start a new thread, listing where you are, when you're looking for a puppy (you may have to wait several months - but the wait is worth it to get a healthy puppy, from a well planned litter), how far you're willing to travel, temperment (do you want a really active dog to maybe compete with in dock diving, agility, nosework, tracking, etc), or do you want a family dog with a good off switch - who is up for a nice long hike, but also happy to just hang out with the family, etc. The folks here can help you narrow down your search with good ethical breeders. 

And - finally, I'm so sorry about your loss of your dog - it's the worst part about pet ownership, and especially when they pass too young.


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## ratdog33 (Nov 30, 2017)

Thank you, rabernet, for the great tips! I’m going to look into tittering... I have never done that before. You guys are all so helpful with all of your advice!


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

ratdog33 said:


> Thank you, rabernet, for the great tips! I’m going to look into tittering... I have never done that before. You guys are all so helpful with all of your advice!


You're welcome! Most importantly - be an advocate for your dog. Some vets are going to insist that you neuter early, that you get yearly vaccines, when in fact, your dog may already be covered in immunity from his previous vaccines. 

Vaccines cause inflamation - some cancers begin with inflamation. I didn't mention it in my previous post, but I had a cat who developed vaccine induced fibrosarcoma and died of it. At the time (this was in the early 2000's), I was also volunteering at Canine Assistants that trains service dogs. I was talking to the staff vet about my cat and he told me that he was aware of studies being done where dogs were given no vaccines after their first year booster, and exposing them to the diseases, seven years later, and they were still immune. That's when I first started reading what I could about over vaccination. My cats get no vaccines past their first year booster (with the full support of my vet). 

When we got Noah, we lived in another city, and when I told the vet that we were waiting until 2 years to neuter, if we neutered at all - he gave me a high five and said he wished more of his clients did as much independent research and asking questions as I did. Noah will be 3 next month and is still intact. 

I say all that to say - stand firm with how you want to care for your dog, knowing that statistically 60% of goldens do die of cancer. Don't let a vet guilt you into early spay/neuter if that's not YOUR plan. Don't let them guilt you into yearly vaccines if you prefer to titer and only vaccinate for where your dog is lacking in immunity after the first year booster. You will be your dog's advocate, and YOU will need decide what you are comfortable with. 

I hope we'll see you posting pictures of your new puppy in the near future!


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## Barbara Lewis (Apr 3, 2017)

Ratdog33, I have a dog from Judeth. Feel free to email me. [email protected]


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## Tina Healey (Apr 20, 2018)

I’m not a Golden Expert but we got our retriever from Judith Crom. She had a heart murmur that was disclosed to us but it is almost nonexistent. We were so happy with her we got another one 3 years later. They have the most loving and patient personalities. From babies to other dogs and puppies, and cats.......Everyone falls in love with them. We know retrievers are known to be gentle but we have known several retrievers who have some very annoying stress related behavior. These girls are smart, friendly, eager to learn!


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## price crozer (May 14, 2018)

Tina Healey said:


> I’m not a Golden Expert but we got our retriever from Judith Crom. She had a heart murmur that was disclosed to us but it is almost nonexistent. We were so happy with her we got another one 3 years later. They have the most loving and patient personalities. From babies to other dogs and puppies, and cats.......Everyone falls in love with them. We know retrievers are known to be gentle but we have known several retrievers who have some very annoying stress related behavior. These girls are smart, friendly, eager to learn!


Here, here! I am the proud owner of an incredible golden retriever from Judeth Crom and couldn't be happier. Our girl has excellent bone structure at 6.5 years, great personality and intelligence, and beautiful beyond words. She is a service dog and is about to start moonlighting at a local hospital visiting cancer patients. I already have plans to acquire another of her puppies in the upcoming year. I will continue to recommend Judeth as I have to a host of my Sophie's admirers.

Price Crozer
Portland, OR


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## price crozer (May 14, 2018)

*Choosing a breeder*



price crozer said:


> Here, here! I am the proud owner of an incredible golden retriever from Judeth Crom and couldn't be happier. Our girl has excellent bone structure at 6.5 years, great personality and intelligence, and beautiful beyond words. She is a service dog and is about to start moonlighting at a local hospital visiting cancer patients. I already have plans to acquire another of her puppies in the upcoming year. I will continue to recommend Judeth as I have to a host of my Sophie's admirers.
> 
> Price Crozer
> Portland, OR


I should have mentioned in my previous post that a prior golden retriever of mine had incredible lineage, a descendent of a Westminster Best of Breed, with outstanding paperwork and accreditation. EVEN SO, she developed hip dysplasia and died of cancer soon after her ninth birthday. Rather than judging a breeder based on the opinions of others who have never even met the breeder, I strongly recommend meeting with the breeder, the sire and dam, get a feel for their breeder's passion and commitment to the breed, even ask for the names of others who have purchased pups from them. Anything less is a disservice to the breeder and yourself. And know that, in the end, no amount of paperwork and accreditation can insure a dog's longevity.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I know I'm fairly new to the site but it's very strange that when a breeder is exposed as poor or unethical for shady practices with clearances, no website or Facebook page, no titles and no OFA listings that the people that defend them always only have 1 or 2 posts.

It just has the feel that breeder is making random accounts to prop themselves up. Is it me or do others get this vibe? I've noticed this in quite a few threads


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

It is interesting, given that I don't feel the need to go and insist that "Everybody who sees my dog just absolutely falls in love with her!" since its pretty hard not to fall in love with basically any nice GR you meet out there in the real world. My dog charms the pants off of everyone she meets...just like every other GR out there . I would want to work with a breeder who values clearances as much as I do, AND is someone who is passionate about their dogs and the breed AND I get a good feel from when interacting with them and seeing their dogs. But in my mind, focusing on optimal health (and getting clearances) sort of goes along with the whole passion for the breed thing. 

Just because a dog who came from a highly titled line and parents with clearances ended up with hip dysplasia that was diagnosed in old age does not mean that clearances are not important to obtain. And I don't know how I would feel about picking up a puppy with a known heart murmur.


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## Judeth (Jul 30, 2018)

*My beautiful goldens and your missinformation*



Maggie'sVoice said:


> I know I'm fairly new to the site but it's very strange that when a breeder is exposed as poor or unethical for shady practices with clearances, no website or Facebook page, no titles and no OFA listings that the people that defend them always only have 1 or 2 posts.
> 
> It just has the feel that breeder is making random accounts to prop themselves up. Is it me or do others get this vibe? I've noticed this in quite a few threads


All my dogs I currently own have all their OFA clearances and many in the past. I do not know hw to put them up and don’t have time to hen peck back and forth because I tend to my beautiful super healthy dogs and pups. 
My Rowdy Yates has excellent hips normal elbows eyes and heart. 
Cupcake has excellent hips and normal heart elbows eyes. 
Cloie Has excellent hips normal elbows eyes and heart. Retired
Max has good hips normal eyes elbows and heart, 
Stella good hips normal eyes heart and elbows retired.
Rosebud fair hips normal heart eyes elbows. 
There are some dogs way in the past that did not have clearances and some that did.
All breeders use prelims as well. 
My Rowdy Yates prelim was hips were rated good and now they are excellent. 
The creepy breeder badmouthing me in the beginning does not know me at all.she put this slanderous site up
I do not like being all over the internet and have a website and go on Facebook. I don’t have time and I don’t have Puppy Mills like you. I am a private breeder and don’t breed allot of dogs.i do not want to be on the computer all day and answering phones constantly. I like my down time. Many people that have had my puppies in the past look hard and long for me to get another Pup. I have many references and very happy customers. 
Also when my people that post a comment about my dogs and puppies on this forum defending me are called fake posts. That is maddening. You people are all a bunch of lying gossipy old
hens and should clean up your old hen house and quit pecking at me. 
This is why I don’t want a website or Facebook. 
I have never had a dog with displystic hips.
My dogs work at many ski areas the Lake Tahoe area and I am well know in that community.
Find something better to do then your fake news and slandering me and my defenders.
My Rowdy Yates.My Rock and Roll baby My belle of the Ball Stella, My Snowmist Pearl , My Million Dollar Max, My Frosted Rose, My pretty sweet Lilly, My Mia’s Magic Passion. My Oh la la pretty Fancy . Leave us alone and mind your own business. Take my name off this horrible forum. It is depressing and stressful for me and my people.


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## Judeth (Jul 30, 2018)

I don’t see your OFA on your dogs. I look up K9 and no hip clearances on your pedigree. No health OFA. Laura. My dogs have all their OFA. Look up My Rowdy Yates . His prelims were good hips and now they are excellent. Look up My Snowmist Pearl as well. People ar3 slandering me and you have no clearances. This comment is for Laura who posted her pedigree on k9 with no Ofa clearance and health linage.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Judeth said:


> All my dogs I currently own have all their OFA clearances and many in the past. I do not know hw to put them up and don’t have time to hen peck back and forth ;;;;;;
> 
> There are some dogs way in the past that did not have clearances and some that did.
> All breeders use prelims as well. ;;;;;;
> ...


https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1617869 My Rocknroll baby- inadequate cardiac clearance. 
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1642920 inadequate heart and out of date by years eyes.. (and her 'bell' has no e on the end)
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1780227 inadeqate heart clearance
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1660982 inadequate cardiac clearance
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1773601 inadequate cardiac clearance

https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1982035 a baby
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1841184 inadequate cardiac, out of date eyes 
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1665939 inadequate cardiac. 

This IS the business of the 'looking for a puppy' part of this forum and if it is stressful or troublesome to you, then make yourself compliant with the best practices part of being a breeder and no one will say anything that bothers your puppy buyers. It looks like except for one dog, that means get a correct -cardiologist- heart clearance and that one get eyes up to date. Goldens have cardiac issues that your pet vet (who gave the clearance and did the auscultation) cannot discern. 
No one is slandering you nor is anyone gossiping about you- a puppy person came here for advice. It was given, straight and in comparison to the Code of Ethics. If your program doesn't meet the minimal requirements of the Code, then you are going to be outed. If it does, you will get a thumbs up. You're close. Go that few more steps and this irritation will have been worth it to your puppy people and the dogs you produce.

And that statement ' all breeders use prelims as well'.. that's completely uninformed. Breeding on prelims is risky and not bright. NO good breeders I know do this.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Judeth said:


> I don’t see your OFA on your dogs. I look up K9 and no hip clearances on your pedigree. No health OFA. Laura. My dogs have all their OFA. Look up My Rowdy Yates . His prelims were good hips and now they are excellent. Look up My Snowmist Pearl as well. People ar3 slandering me and you have no clearances.


LOL!! that's about as far from the truth as you could get....Laura always adheres to the Code. At this point in time you are not. I hope you will go get cardio clearances and get in line with the CoE because we need breeders of your coat color who actually are in compliance.


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## Judeth (Jul 30, 2018)

My heart clearances are totally acceptable by OFA otherwise they would not have cleared my dogs.
You will find nothing acceptable. Just leave me alone and take care of your own business.
Also stop saying that comments made by my Puppy people are fake. They are not. You have never met me or my puppies and do not know anything about me. I do not trust the k9 website.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I said nothing about your puppy people's comments- however, OFA has to take P- clearances only because the better (and required for Goldens) Cardiologist clearances (ending in a C-) are not required in all breeds. Breeds such as Goldens (and you should know this) require a cardiologist clearance to qualify for a CHIC number (which says you are in compliance). I do find that unacceptable- and so would anyone else who looked at your breeding dogs' clearances. It's not that big a deal to go get a correct heart clearance.


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## Judeth (Jul 30, 2018)

Also. How about a thumbs up on all my excellent hips. I am very happy with the health of my puppies and dogs. No complaints. I have all my puppies Vet Check and signed Vet release. All is disclosed to my folks. I rarely have a heart murmur and if I do it is slight and goes away. So stop scaring people about slight heart murmurs that the pups grow out of. I am sure you have experienced this. I had one heart murmur that was a 3 and did not go away but the dog is doing great and takes medication once in awhile. No operations. Can’t have perfect pups all the time like you. Not
The temperament of my dogs are excellent and they are gorgeous. I have no interest in showing my dogs even though they would probably come in first. I have no time and wasting allot of time on here. Showing dogs is so political it would be a nightmare And the hen pecking would be awful.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Judeth said:


> All my dogs I currently own have all their OFA clearances and many in the past. I do not know hw to put them up and don’t have time to hen peck back and forth because I tend to my beautiful super healthy dogs and pups.
> My Rowdy Yates has excellent hips normal elbows eyes and heart.
> Cupcake has excellent hips and normal heart elbows eyes.
> Cloie Has excellent hips normal elbows eyes and heart. Retired
> ...



LOL WUT? I didn't single you out. I just mentioned (a while ago) that when a breeder is called out, that there has been too many times the people that come on here to defend a breeder that has some clearance issues are new accounts that have 1 or 2 posts. This is not a false statement but true observation. It may mean nothing but also is too much of a coincidence to not see it if you're not blind. If you had everything inline, then there wouldn't be a need for people to defend you, the dogs and their clearances would do that. So if you are so bent out of shape over this then do the correct clearances with cardio and have a cardiologist to it and not a practitioner as all that does is show you're shortcutting them. A Practitioner is totally unlikely to catch something unless its super obvious, that's why there are cardiology specialists in teh first place.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Judeth said:


> Also. How about a thumbs up on all my excellent hips. I am very happy with the health of my puppies and dogs. No complaints. I have all my puppies Vet Check and signed Vet release. All is disclosed to my folks. I rarely have a heart murmur and if I do it is slight and goes away. So stop scaring people about slight heart murmurs that the pups grow out of. I am sure you have experienced this. I had one heart murmur that was a 3 and did not go away but the dog is doing great and takes medication once in awhile. No operations. Can’t have perfect pups all the time like you. Not
> The temperament of my dogs are excellent and they are gorgeous. I have no interest in showing my dogs even though they would probably come in first. I have no time and wasting allot of time on here. Showing dogs is so political it would be a nightmare And the hen pecking would be awful.



Wow! That's like saying well I don't have this right (hart), but don't I get credit for this (Hips)? I'll say this, and this doesn't excuse any clearance issues but I would soooo much rather heart and eyes done properly and cleared then hips as a dog can live with a hip issue but the hart problems will take their life early. So a breeder that would be looking for a pat on the back or an atta girl for hips to feel better for lacking proper clearances from one of the other 4 core... I would have hung up the phone on. I'm just having a hard time believing a quality breeder would, A, go on a forum to defend themselves like this and B, say things like, I got 2 or 3 of the 4 core clearances done correctly can i get some credit for that! :nono:


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## Judeth (Jul 30, 2018)

I take offense to you people shutting me down without knowing me and calling me greeder instead of breeder without knowing me. I can sit here and search all day long on you and find something. I don’t choose too. I rarely and I mean rarely have a complaint or health complaint on my dogs. You guys did claim that my people’s nice comments about my dogs on this forum made them up. So you slandered them too. I have no respect for you.. 
The person you told not to use me as a breeder missed out on a gorgeous healthy sweet Puppy. So mind your own dog house and leave me alone. Find another poor breeder to peck at.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

Judeth said:


> . Find another poor breeder to peck at.


Quit being a "poor breeder" and follow the GRCA Code of Ethics by recording the clearances on a verifiable site like OFA as required by the COE and we will be happy to recommend your program to buyers.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Again Judeth, this is really so easy, especially as close as you are to being compliant. Just go get cardiologist clearances on your breeding animals and no one will say a word. It'd be nice for those of us who review breeding programs for puppy people to be able to say you meet the minimum grade. I'd even probably mention you do have some OFA Excellent dogs- but so do others who also have the core 4 clearances. And those would be a safer bet than these at this point in time. 

I'm curious- your cardiac issue who 'takes meds sometimes' - I'm fairly well educated on veterinary things... cardiac issues are not something one takes meds for sometimes, they are either on beta blockers or other drugs ALL the time or not. 
Politics or not, I hope you do attend AKC shows so you can learn about the breed and correct structure. Or avail yourself of GRCAs CCA program. You can't really learn so much in your own home.


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## Dustyrags (May 1, 2018)

*Grass Valley Breeder*

To be a good breeder does not mean you need to have a kennel name, a website, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter or anything else like that. A good breeder is one that provides a potential puppy owner with all of the answers to their questions, copies of health clearances from the dogs of the current litter they are potentially looking at, providing the pedigrees of both of the parents for the five generations, and providing copies of any articles of any championships of any of the dogs in the pedigrees that they may have if they have stated there are championship lines. I highly doubt any of the breeders on this forum have taken the classes that the AKC provides and have been certified by the AKC to know about breeding and if they have they would know about genetics and they would understand more fully the traits and the different ways a puppy can get certain diseases. 

However, after reading more fully to all these comments I have come to the conclusion that everyone has lots of different opinions that seem to be all over the place and contradict each other. For one the cardiac exam is not required to be performed by an advanced cardiologist. If you do research on the OFA there are less than 3,000 golden retrievers that have had an advanced cardiologist exam performed out of over 30,000 heart exams performed on golden retrievers. A Specialist, Practitioner or Cardiologist perform the congenital test the same exact way and they test for the heart murmurs. They are examined and classified by a veterinarian with expertise in the recognition of canine heart disease, in accordance with procedures outlined in The Cardiac Exam section of the OFA application form. It is not like you can just go to any veterinary office and just ask to fill out the application form from the OFA and they perform the exam, sign off on it, then turn it into the OFA, then the OFA just reviews it, signs off on it and hands over to the breeder the certified OFA certificate for their heart clearance. If it was that easy every breeder would do it and every veterinarian would be making more money. 

Additionally, If an owner wishes to have their dogs retain their clearances in a two-tiered clearance for both congenital cardiac disease and adult-onset cardiac disease, then you would get a clearance from an Advanced Cardiologist. You would also have to get a clearance for the adult-onset each year. In some areas they can only get this done since there are no other options available since they do not have cardiologists or veterinarians that are trained with expertise in the recognition of canine heart disease. 

The eye clearances are done each year and I know many breeders that do let them laps for a few months before they get them renewed again due to either their dog is currently pregnant or have puppies, or the dog might be retiring in about a month before the clearance is about the expire and there are no more puppies and the dog might be going to another home where the owners have agreed that they do not want the clearance done since the dog is over the age of 6. I would not take my dog into see the eye doctor with puppies at home to get their eye clearance or while they were pregnant. I am very particular with my dogs encountering areas that other dogs have been during times that could put them or the puppies at risk for disease. I would hope other breeders would agree with me on this. Additionally, there are studies that have shown that sometimes dogs can develop certain eye conditions due to low blood sugar or other issues. I want to make sure that my dogs are as healthy as possible when I take my dogs in when they perform their eye tests. I like to wait until after they do not have any puppies, are not pregnant, and not in heat. 

No matter how many great and wonderful health clearances you have and the pedigrees you send to potential families there is always going to be the fact that a puppy could always have a percentage of a chance they could inherit a trait of something from a relative that is far down the line in the pedigree even though each puppy gets 50/50 from both mom and dad. But they could get more from one of the other of a certain trait but they still only have 50% of mom and 50% of dad. There is no way you will ever pick a perfect puppy. The only way you can pick your perfect puppy would to be to see the litter, see mother and father, and let the puppy either pick you or let the breeder help you determine which puppy would be the best fit for your family and home. An excellent breeder knows which puppy would be good for certain families and if a family should not have a dog at all. 

Additionally, I have heard lots of talk about the puppies should be leaving closer to 8 weeks. I do not agree to this at all. By this age the English Creams have become very large, are fighting with siblings, only want to be with families, want to start learning, are done with mom, and they are almost past the point of bonding. I have had puppies that left at 6 weeks and the families have said that the puppies had never cried after the first night, they were not scared of anything, they could take them anywhere, they trained them as service dogs and passed and they have helped them with their children cope better in school and at home. The puppies that left after eight weeks the puppies were harder (took longer), to train, had issues with separation anxiety, they could not walk them as easy without a harness or gentle leader, they were very sweet and less independent. I explain to the potential puppy owners that I do not train the puppies since that is their job. I do teach them to use indoor turf, a doggy door, I try to get them used to loud noises, other animals, people, kids, new feelings, different toys, the water and things like that; however, I highly recommend that they pick up their puppy at six weeks as I do have a vet check and a vet clearance that does clear them for adoption at that age as they are developed mentally and physically for their new homes. I make sure that the new homes that they are going to are fully informed of this and can see that the puppies are at a stage that they can see and are comfortable taking them home. At four weeks the puppies are already done with the mother and are fully trained to use the indoor turf to go pee and poop and not go on their blankets. The only thing they are doing with their litter mates at this point is fighting with each other. 
I have plenty of references to provide for Judeth Crom that are veterinarians that own some of Judeth’s dogs currently that are older dogs. I have references of people that you can call of healthier older dogs. There are no issues. To bad mouth other breeders is disgusting and it should not be tolerated. 

I would be ashamed if I were bad mouthing anyone. Every breeder has their own style of doing things. I have mine based on where I live and how my house is set up. I am sure everyone has the same. Everyone has their own opinions on everything as well; however, there is always going to be trial and error in everything we do as well, but I also know my dogs very well and I know my dog’s personalities, my puppies’ personalities, and I know how they are when they start to grow older as well. I know it is going to be the same for other breeders as well.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

LOL another brand new member with the 1 or 2 post history coming to the defense. It's on the verge of hysterics to me. You just can't make this stuff up.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

puppies fighting at 8 weeks? 
wow. Mine don't do that. 

FWIW- you would be wrong on your assessment of the breeders here. For myself, I have taken AKC and other classes, I also have a Biology degree and a Chemistry minor. I have an excellent grasp of genetics. 
I am on the GRCA Breeders Education committee. I am also an approved ringside mentor, one of exactly 3 who are not also AKC judges last I counted. Lest you think that the opinions here are without background. There are actually quite a few well educated and certificated breeders here donating time. I'm nothing special here. There are lots of me people here who know FAR more in their little finger than many of these protesting less-than breeders have in their whole head. 

In order to be compliant with the Code of Ethics, a cardiologist must perform the auscultation exam. Without that, one is not able to be CHIC on OFA. The two tier is not a required piece for Goldens as we have no genetic adult onset cardiac issues. 
OFA DOES take practitioner clearances for the reason I stated earlier. Do they do them the same way as a cardiologist? Sure- if putting a stethoscope to the dog's chest is 'the same way'. Does the practitioner have the same cardiac listening skills? No way. That's the reason the cardiologist is required to be compliant with the CoE. 
The practitioner exam is JUST like you claim it is not above. Any pet vet can do them. One takes the form in and the vet listens and fills it out - that's all. 

I'm tired of this argument- the reality is the breeder being discussed has inadequate cardiac exams on her dogs. That's it.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Paste: GRCA’s Code of Ethics and CHIC requirements already accept examination reports from cardiologists only, with OFA’s counsel, GRCA will be making the transition to the ACA and will no longer accept reports entered into the old database as of September 1, 2016.
The full text of the OFA-ACVIM announcement can be read at:
http://www.ofa.org/pdf/ACA_Announcement.pdf
the discussion of a two-tiered clearance in which the second tier includes yearly clearances for adult onset cardiac disease DOES NOT apply as a general recommendation to Goldens, and a single examination after the age of 12 months will still be valid for the dog’s lifetime in our breed. 

The pertinent pieces. There ya go.


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## Jmcarp83 (May 4, 2018)

I’m coming in here to say that I’ve been reading all these posts and who lets their puppies routinely go at 8 weeks? I’m not a breeder and my 12.5 yo lab left her mom at 7 weeks and I truly believe it’s where all her anxiety issues stemmed from. I had a 7 week old dog freaking out hysterically her first night at home because she wasn’t ready to go. And I didn’t know any better. I would never, ever ever ever take a 7 week old puppy again let alone a 6 week old puppy. So to suggest this is normal is mind blowing. Even my BYB Golden wasn’t allowed to leave until 8 weeks. And I know the puppy I’m getting soon with all 4 clearances isn’t leaving before 8 weeks either. To suggest puppies at 8 weeks are routinely fighting that they must be separated makes it sound as if therewould be aggression issues.


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## Dustyrags (May 1, 2018)

I do not think you read what I wrote correctly. As I stated not any old vet can perform the exam for the heart clearance they have to have the training to perform it. They must abide by the same COE as well as a specialist and cardiologist to be able to have it cleared by the OFA. As stated by the OFA a practitioner is able to sign off on the form IF they have expertise in the recognition in canine heart disease as classified in accordance with procedures outlined in The Cardiac Exam section of the OFA application form. How do you think a practitioner checks for heart murmurs? Do you think they put their ear to their heart and then gives the ok? Have you ever been present for an exam with a practitioner who does these exams that is cleared by the OFA, and present with a specialist, present with a cardiologist and then with an Advanced Cardiologist. I have. I would like to know what you have seen. I believe what you are talking about is a specific exam of the heart that they are looking for in the breed and that only board certified cardiologist can perform this test which is for subvalvular aortic stenosis which is rare for the breed. I am aware of the ethics of the GRCA and the CHIC (Canine Health Information Center). Not every breeder wishes to participate in the parent clubs or with the CHIC program. I have not seen what the benefit is of either one is yet and I have participated in them. The information from the GRCA is usually out of date and it contradicts some of the information that the AKC has and the CHIC. I am happy for you that you have so many valuable degrees in biology and chemistry, but it disappoints me that you would allow the AKC to Judge dogs that have bad hips, elbows and other bad health clearances. I am sure Judeth will get the new clearances and they will be clear again; however, I am sure that there will be some other issue with something that she does wrong somewhere along the line. It is hard to admit when someone who does not have a website, facebook, or other avenues to show her dogs at that she would be able to have such wonderful dogs. In addition, she has such amazing dogs that people have forged AKC registrations from limited to full registration from her prior litters and have been able to breed those dogs and make websites, sell puppies, get clearances and sell them to other people all of the place. Also, I am so glad that if you have a litter of ten puppies and they are eight weeks old that they are all just licking each other and holding each other and just sleeping the whole time, learning to sit, stay, lay down, and not play with each other or use their teeth or wrestle with each other. That is amazing you should write a book.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

sigh... you take this form in to the pet vet- https://www.ofa.org/pdf/cardapp_bw.pdf 
the vet puts her stethoscope to the dog's body, listens. Hears no murmur and signs off. All there is to it. The training one gets in vet school is sufficient to do the exam and fill out the form. OFA accepts it. It truly is not any special training. That gets you a practitioner clearance. Any old vet can do them. see paste:
Board certification by the American College of Veterinary
Internal Medicine, Specialty of Cardiology is considered by the
American Veterinary Medical Association as the benchmark of
clinical proficiency for veterinarians in clinical cardiology, and
examination by a Diplomate of this specialty board is recommended.
However, *any licensed veterinarian may be able to
perform this examination by auscultation.
*
SAS is not a rare disease in Goldens. It is rarer since GRCA has begun requiring a cardiologist to do the clearance. 

I'm not going to keep arguing this with you- if you imagine that all those P-clearances are done by anyone specially trained to listen to the heart other than what was learnt in vet school, you keep on imagining it. It's an inferior exam and an inferior clearance, if one cared about the breed one would not breed animals without an adequate clearance.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Jmcarp83 said:


> I’m coming in here to say that I’ve been reading all these posts and who lets their puppies routinely go at 8 weeks? I’m not a breeder and my 12.5 yo lab left her mom at 7 weeks and I truly believe it’s where all her anxiety issues stemmed from. I had a 7 week old dog freaking out hysterically her first night at home because she wasn’t ready to go. And I didn’t know any better. I would never, ever ever ever take a 7 week old puppy again let alone a 6 week old puppy. So to suggest this is normal is mind blowing. Even my BYB Golden wasn’t allowed to leave until 8 weeks. And I know the puppy I’m getting soon with all 4 clearances isn’t leaving before 8 weeks either. To suggest puppies at 8 weeks are routinely fighting that they must be separated makes it sound as if therewould be aggression issues.


What it really is, is after 6 weeks they start being a lot more work on the breeder...
8 weeks is a minimum to my thinking. But those who let them go at 6 weeks are just getting out of the hard part of rearing a litter. And the puppies suffer from lack of peer socializing.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Dustyrags said:


> In addition, she has such amazing dogs that people have forged AKC registrations from limited to full registration from her prior litters and have been able to breed those dogs and make websites, sell puppies, get clearances and sell them to other people all of the place.


So sold to people who are liars/forgers/thieves... hmmm. Not something I would be using as evidence of value. Your points are truly making her program look worse!
Her cardiac clearances are all that is missing on her program being one no one would criticize. Until you start adding in things like this... for those people's actions with her breedings reflect on her...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Dustyrags said:


> I highly doubt any of the breeders on this forum have taken the classes that the AKC provides and have been certified by the AKC to know about breeding and if they have they would know about genetics and they would understand more fully the traits and the different ways a puppy can get certain diseases.


I wouldn't exactly go by AKC for "classes" on how to be a breeder. AKC is a registrar. They are not the breed club. You need to refer to GRCA. The GRCA website has a ton of information available. 

Also, there are a ton of breeders who have a ton to share. These are breeders who have been active and representing in the breed for longer than a lot of us have been alive. These are the people to learn from. 

The tough part about the state of the breed and particularly "english creams" is you have a lot of people who have their first dogs and make it up as they go with advice from scam artists (those who are trying to build sales points for what they produce by creating a birdbrained mythology about the so-called competition). Some of the people out there have been dog owners (just talking "owners") for less than 10 years. But even people who have been in the breed for 20-30 years, that experience isn't helpful if they are making it up as they go with a lot of areas. 

Clearances would be one of those primary areas where there's hard facts and black and white printed rules about the four clearances, when to get them, how to get them, plus there are ten million people online at any time who are raring and ready to recite those rules. Furthermore, you have some breeders who require their pet people to get full clearances - primarily to add to the breeder's information on what they are producing. 



Dustyrags said:


> However, after reading more fully to all these comments I have come to the conclusion that everyone has lots of different opinions that seem to be all over the place and contradict each other. For one the cardiac exam is not required to be performed by an advanced cardiologist. If you do research on the OFA there are less than 3,000 golden retrievers that have had an advanced cardiologist exam performed out of over 30,000 heart exams performed on golden retrievers.


"Please note that the discussion of a two-tiered clearance in which the second tier includes yearly clearances for adult onset cardiac disease *DOES NOT apply as a general recommendation to Goldens, and a single examination after the age of 12 months will still be valid for the dog’s lifetime in our breed. * However, this second tier database could be valuable when unusual adult onset diseases (such as cardiomyopathy) arise, and owners are encouraged to use the triplicate forms throughout a dog’s life for any diagnosis. Reporting via the research copy allows surveillance that can serve as an early warning system as diseases emerge or increase in prevalence in a breed."

^ You don't want to confuse the new annual "advanced cardiac exam" with the usual cardiac exams which people have been doing and continue to do....

The above was taken from GRCA.


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## Dustyrags (May 1, 2018)

*grass valley*

I hate to break it to you but not any old vet will sign off on the form or just listen to the heart and just do the form. I have asked two separate vets of mine to do them before and they refused since they were not qualified to do them pursuant to the recommendations of the OFA. I have had several vets tell me this. That is why I had not choice but to go to an advanced specialist. I am sorry but you are incorrect. There are very few practitioners that are qualified to actually sign off on the OFA form and if there are vets that are signing off on the form after just listening to the hearts of the dogs with total lack of care as you suggest then that is sad; however, I would hope this is not the case. From my experience I have not seen this in my area. Also, the puppies want to be with their new owners and bond with them during the bonding period of the 6-9 week window not with me. If the new owner is unable to bond with their puppy or is not capable of knowing how to take care of a puppy so they can get used to their new surroundings as one article states in the AKC about the best time for the puppy to go to their new home, in fact they suggest during the 7-9 week period they should be at their new home. I am more than happy to send you the article, but I am sure you have it since you seem to know everything.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Judeth said:


> I don’t see your OFA on your dogs. I look up K9 and no hip clearances on your pedigree. No health OFA. Laura. My dogs have all their OFA. Look up My Rowdy Yates . His prelims were good hips and now they are excellent. Look up My Snowmist Pearl as well. People ar3 slandering me and you have no clearances. This comment is for Laura who posted her pedigree on k9 with no Ofa clearance and health linage.


I will attach the definition of slander since you don’t seem to know it. 
Please point directly to any part of my posts in this thread that are slander. Oh, you can’t because in written form it would be libel and every thing I posted was rendered as general opinion or verifiable fact. 

I get that you are unhappy to have the rather large deficiencies in you program public. Especially when a google search pops these comments to the top of searches. However, not liking what is posted here does not make it slander or libel.

Now on to your actual libelous post against me. Please provide the proof that a dog I own has produced offspring with out OFA hip certification. What dog specifically are you falsely accusing me of breeding with out OFA certifications to try to damage my reputation?


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Dustyrags said:


> I hate to break it to you but not any old vet will sign off on the form or just listen to the heart and just do the form. I have asked two separate vets of mine to do them before and they refused since they were not qualified to do them pursuant to the recommendations of the OFA. I have had several vets tell me this. That is why I had not choice but to go to an advanced specialist. I am sorry but you are incorrect. There are very few practitioners that are qualified to actually sign off on the OFA form and if there are vets that are signing off on the form after just listening to the hearts of the dogs with total lack of care as you suggest then that is sad; however, I would hope this is not the case. From my experience I have not seen this in my area. Also, the puppies want to be with their new owners and bond with them during the bonding period of the 6-9 week window not with me. If the new owner is unable to bond with their puppy or is not capable of knowing how to take care of a puppy so they can get used to their new surroundings as one article states in the AKC about the best time for the puppy to go to their new home, in fact they suggest during the 7-9 week period they should be at their new home. I am more than happy to send you the article, but I am sure you have it since you seem to know everything.


You do realize what you're writing is here to stay for any potential buyers to read, right? The more you write, the worse it gets. I adopted a golden at the age of 11 yrs, we bonded instantly, so to see you believe that you need to place a puppy at 6 weeks (which is when the works gets astronomically harder for the breeder) or risk them not bonding w/ a family is ridiculous. I am concerned that you view puppy play as aggression & if your pups are aggressive you should strongly rethink what your breeding as that is not in line w/ the golden temperament outlined in the standard. If you would put as much time/emphasis in doing the bare minimum clearances as recommended by the GRCA as you do defending what I perceive to be a substandard breeding program & writing inaccuracies justifying your practices, we might actually be willing to be very supportive of you.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

*Judith Crom of My English Cream Golden Retriever of Grass Valley, California*

The current listing on the AKC marketplace for Judith Crom of My English Cream Golden Retriever of Grass Valley, California contains a blatant misrepresentation of her dogs. 

She has purposely checked the box on her current AKC Marketplace advertisement “The applicable heath screens have been performed on the sire and dam as recommended by the Parent Club for this breed.” These dogs do not have all the health certifications as per the GRCA. Below are screenshots of the breeder claim, the GRCA letter on the Marketplace detailing the parent club recommendations and the OFA page for the sire and dam detailing the failure to have the claimed health certifications.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Dustyrags- you have not yet divulged what YOUR kennel name is...doing damage to your friend's program yet not telling your own name. 

Though- and this has zero to do with cardiac exam insufficiencies- everyone here knows it is a real issue for me when someone takes someone else's kennel name- MY is actually Marsha York's kennel name and was well before this My began... of course, if this one were involved in more than breeding she would have realized that. The real MY kennel name is associated with many AKC CHs and full clearances.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I will say that we NEVER let puppies go before 8 weeks, and in fact we keep them until 9 weeks. During that period we do extensive socialization of the litter and neurological stimulation. It is also the period where they learn how to interact socially with their littermates and other house dogs. It is very important that they not be removed from the litter environment before 8 weeks of age. And yes, puppies do get into those initial scraps, and it's very important to their future that they learn from that before they have to learn it from another neighborhood dog as a teen or adult. So many dog-reactive dogs were taken from their litters at 6 and 7 weeks that the science is well established how important it is that they learn how to negotiate at a very early age.

We also ensure that the puppies meet and interact with all sorts of (safe) dogs, other animals, and people, as well as different (safe) environments during that period. And in the week between 8-9 weeks we take the entire litter on off-leash "woods walks" where they learn to follow, learn how to negotiate obstacles and terrain, gain courage, and learn how to problem solve, so that they become bulletproof, courageous puppies. They also learn bite inhibition and canine body language from their siblings, mother, and other house dogs. Very important for their future. There are other neurological and social development reasons to keep pups until at least 8 weeks, and even longer.

That's all I'll write on the time to go to homes, though there is much, much more.

We do cardiologists and CHIC on all our dogs. We report everything on OFA, including failures. It's important to the breed. It's important that other breeders looking at pedigrees have access to that information. 

I find the forging of documents by puppy buyers alarming. I'm astounded at what I've read in this thread.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

DanaRuns said:


> I will say that we NEVER let puppies go before 8 weeks, and in fact we keep them until 9 weeks. During that period we do extensive socialization of the litter and neurological stimulation. It is also the period where they learn how to interact socially with their littermates and other house dogs. It is very important that they not be removed from the litter environment before 8 weeks of age. And yes, puppies do get into those initial scraps, and it's very important to their future that they learn from that before they have to learn it from another neighborhood dog as a teen or adult. So many dog-reactive dogs were taken from their litters at 6 and 7 weeks that the science is well established how important it is that they learn how to negotiate at a very early age.
> 
> We also ensure that the puppies meet and interact with all sorts of (safe) dogs, other animals, and people, as well as different (safe) environments during that period. And in the week between 8-9 weeks we take the entire litter on off-leash "woods walks" where they learn to follow, learn how to negotiate obstacles and terrain, gain courage, and learn how to problem solve, so that they become bulletproof, courageous puppies. They also learn bite inhibition and canine body language from their siblings, mother, and other house dogs. Very important for their future. There are other neurological and social development reasons to keep pups until at least 8 weeks, and even longer.


Small tiny thing - and please don't see this as a poke or something like that. Aside from people talking about bringing pups home at 7 weeks exactly or less.... and speaking about breeders bringing pups home after that 7 week point, I believe that the timing for bringing pups home is variable from breeder to breeder. Also, probably state laws get involved as well because pups sent home too early are more prone to illness. 

We brought a 6 week old boy home and almost lost him to illness (coccidia out of control). I think of that week of hell every time I see anyone talking about sending pups home at 6 weeks. And that's the case with this conversation here.

That pup spent a lot of time at the vet because of the coccidia and later on because of a combination of elbow dysplasia and pano. The experience of being pinched and prodded at the vet + not getting to classes regularly as a young (because we were not permitted to bring an unsound/lame dog to class) meant that he developed fear/shyness around people. 

That had nothing to do with him going home at 6 weeks. It was what happened in the first year of his life which "stuck" and made him a reserved guy for the rest of his life. 

Coming home at 6 weeks had everything to do with him becoming severely ill and almost dying at 7-8 weeks. Seriously, I don't wish that on anyone. Among else, bringing a pup home at 6 weeks doesn't even leave any time for vaccinations or worming by the breeder.


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## WildfireGoldensInArizona (Aug 10, 2012)

And I would like to add that I myself have seen Goldens who have passed with a Practioner evaluated OFA Heart certification that when requested by a bitch owner for the stud dog to be redone by a Cardiologist, he failed. Needless to say, since the dog already had an OFA Heart certification by a practitioner, they didn't ask to have the original practitioner heart certification rescinded nor did the submit the failed OFA exam that was done by the Cardiologist to be included in the OFA database. I know of other situations also that were similar where bitches had OFA Heart certifications by a practitioner and when done by a cardiologist also failed. The great thing about the new ACA Heart certification that OFA is now accepting is that it cannot be downloaded by an owner and taken in to the vet(cardiologist) to be used, so the chance of falsification is slim unless someone just takes in a dog that isn't the one they are having tested. Also it is a triplicate document similar to the OFA eye exam forms, so even if a dog fails and the owner opts not to submit it, the data will be used anonymously in the recording of the golden statistics. Hopefully that will allow us to truly get a more accurate picture of the heart issues our breed might actually have instead of like in the past where if a dog failed, that one page form was never sent in to OFA and thus our stats were most likely skewed. I for one am thrilled with the new ACA program and can't wait for data updates in a few years.


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## Judeth (Jul 30, 2018)

I want you to know that I have all the clearances recommended by the OFA foundation for my dogs.
I do not go by the parent club recommendation on the cardiologist and I unchecked that and I am not a member of the cyber bulling parent club and never will be. This forum is so rude and attacking and full of missinformation. I cannot see how anybody looking for a Golden could follow this. It is all about attacking and insulting.
These people are like PETA disguised as breeders. My OFA requirements are on all my dogs I currently breed. Get it.
Why are you attackers constantly advertising your dogs on here. I thought you could not do that. 
Anyone reading this horrible forum please know that I have the most wonderful healthy dogs you could find. Gorgeous and sweet too.
Way better looking then those that I have seen on this forum with the old hens pecking at me.
Don’t even miss out on one of my pups. They are to die for.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Judeth said:


> I want you to know that I have all the clearances recommended by the OFA foundation for my dogs.
> I do not go by the parent club recommendation on the cardiologist and I unchecked that and I am not a member of the cyber bulling parent club and never will be. This forum is so rude and attacking and full of missinformation. I cannot see how anybody looking for a Golden could follow this. It is all about attacking and insulting.
> These people are like PETA disguised as breeders. My OFA requirements are on all my dogs I currently breed. Get it.
> Why are you attackers constantly advertising your dogs on here. I thought you could not do that.
> ...


You do realize per the OFA site, a cardiologist clearance is in fact recommended for goldens? Here's the link in case you weren't aware: https://www.ofa.org/recommended-tests?breed=GR&var=


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Judeth said:


> I want you to know that I have all the clearances recommended by the OFA foundation for my dogs.


No you don’t.

You really should take some time and educate yourself. I included a link below to OFA’s CHIC program where they make their breed specific recommendations and a screen shot below. 

Canine Health Information Center



Judeth said:


> Why are you attackers constantly advertising your dogs on here. I thought you could not do that.


It is not allowed and you should report it. I will say I have never seen any of the posters here in the thread advertise. 

By the way I am still waiting on the proof I requested from your previous attempt to defame my character.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Judeth said:


> I have the most wonderful healthy dogs you could find. Gorgeous and sweet too.
> Way better looking then those that I have seen on this forum with the old hens pecking at me.
> Don’t even miss out on one of my pups. They are to die for.


This quote, above, is a violation of the rules here. Rule #4 states: "No Member or breeders will post for any kind of breeding, stud services, discussions of proposed puppy/dog availability or sales." Your post is a violation of that rule. Saying "*Don't even miss out on one of my pups*" is not only crass advertising, it is forbidden here. At least for some.


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## Judeth (Jul 30, 2018)

LJack said:


> The current listing on the AKC marketplace for Judith Crom of My English Cream Golden Retriever of Grass Valley, California contains a blatant misrepresentation of her dogs.
> 
> She has purposely checked the box on her current AKC Marketplace advertisement “The applicable heath screens have been performed on the sire and dam as recommended by the Parent Club for this breed.” These dogs do not have all the health certifications as per the GRCA. Below are screenshots of the breeder claim, the GRCA letter on the Marketplace detailing the parent club recommendations and the OFA page for the sire and dam detailing the failure to have the claimed health certifications.


Leave me alone. I have my clearance certificates for my dogs. I am not a member of the parent club and would never be a member. You are a bunch of bullies. I checked that box thinking I was in compliance with the parent club for all my clearances. My mistake. It is unchecked. My dogs are beautiful and healthy and there is nothing wrong with their hearts. Getting an appointment for eyes or heart is far away and takes months. Anyway I am perfectly satisfied with my clearances and the health of my dogs. Very rarely do I ever have a health issue. I have had very few slight heart murmurs in my puppies that cleared up and only one 3 that the Pup had to take some sort of meds. It was years ago and I do not remember the report. The Puppy is doing great last time I heard. Most people don’t have the clearances I have and it is really hard getting eye appointments every year far away. Then you have to wait for the AKC To show up on pedigree and AKC. But no excuse. I am happy with the clearances I have and the beautiful dogs I have. No skin problems. Great temperaments. So there you go. Keep hating on me. Leave me alone.There is no support here just insults and attacks no discussions. Sick.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Really crazy question - and I'm asking as a dog OWNER (not a breeder).

My youngest guy cost me about $300 between 12 months and 24 months when I got all his clearances. I did this because I was looking for confirmation that I could continue showing him and putting more money into dog shows. 

What this means is after he was about a year old, he got his eyes checked the first time by a local favorite eye guy that everyone goes to even though he costs about $20 more than the clinics at dogs shows. I also got him in to a local recommended cardiologist to get his heart checked. 

Between the two, it cost me about $100. Eyes were $50 and heart was about $40. 

Eye specialist is about 30 minutes away from me. Cardiologist about 10 minutes away. 

Both would have been cheaper using eye clinics at dog shows where you basically might pay about $60 for both. 

I did not get a peek at hips/elbows at 12 months.... <= Partly because it is kinda expensive to do if you are not completely committed to breeding the dog. 

I did hips/elbows at 24 months and it cost me about $200 (it costs $250 now). 

I also have eyes checked every year - even though I do not always send the paperwork in. <= I have the paperwork in my purse from this year and WILL mail it in, I swear! It costs me about $100 every year for 2 dogs.

Because my older dog possibly has cancer (I'm praying hard every night that's not the case while we scramble for holistic treatments and second opinions), this might not be the case - but I really REALLY hope that after a year I will be paying $150 every year for eye ofas for 3 dogs. 

I'm not a breeder and I can do the above.

Why?

Because it means that when somebody looks up my dog (that I'm trying to get that last major on) in OFA - they can find evidence that he has had all clearances done. There's no need for me to "say" anything to anybody inquiring - it's all going to be on OFA. 

Annually, clearances only cost me $50 per dog. That just the eyes. I'm not completely convinced that I need (or want) to do the new advanced heart checks. I just don't believe they are necessary unless you know there's something wrong with the lines you breed. Meaning, you have had odd things popping up among your puppies. 

GRCA (the parent club) is not requiring annual heart checks and as long as they don't (and I don't have dogs from breeders with those heart issues popping up), I'm not worrying about doing anything more than the one time heart OFA (at a cardiologist) after the 12 month mark. 

My question after all of the above explanation is.... why quibble and fight so much about doing OFA's on what you breed - at the recommended times, etc....? If pet people (who make NO MONEY off their dogs) can get CHIC's on their dogs, why can't breeders? Particularly if they are breeding their dogs 1-2 times a year and charging upwards of $2500 on each puppy? 

For added emphasis - people are not just speaking their opinions on the 4 main clearances. The 4 clearances are known, printed, etc on both OFA and GRCA websites. Any puppy buyer looking up a breeder should be able to ask that breeder for the parent dogs registered names. They can then type those names into OFA and look up the dogs and find them listed.

If eyes are not listed every year of a dog's life - that is something to discuss with the breeder. But everything else, due to it being a one time thing, should be listed on OFA. 

If Hips/Elbows/Hearts are not in there, that spells trouble. 

In some part, some breeders resist OFA clearances because they do not want to be called out for breeding underaged dogs.

*If the only thing people are talking about is not doing the heart clearances at a cardiologist... I don't understand the reluctance or unwillingness to comply. Especially since it's fairly easy to get-r-done at eye/heart clinics at shows. Minimal cost.

Practitioners - make mistakes all the time. I shared elsewhere that my regular vet dx my older dog with cataracts. And carried on and on about why he had cataracts vs nuclear sclerosis. His eyes cleared - normal, with n/s. And I took a copy in for his file at the vet. Spoke with the vet this past week during an appointment and she made various comments which basically told me that she did not understand how to read the OFA cert. 

With hearts - I just think it would be the same way. Based on some of the vets out there, there's not a lot of "trust" that they know a lot about breed specific issues.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Judeth said:


> I want you to know that I have all the clearances recommended by the OFA foundation for my dogs.
> I do not go by the parent club recommendation on the cardiologist and I unchecked that and I am not a member of the cyber bulling parent club and never will be. This forum is so rude and attacking and full of missinformation. I cannot see how anybody looking for a Golden could follow this. It is all about attacking and insulting.
> These people are like PETA disguised as breeders. My OFA requirements are on all my dogs I currently breed. Get it.
> Why are you attackers constantly advertising your dogs on here. I thought you could not do that.
> ...





GULP! You do realize what you just did right? You just killed your credibility as you, as a "Quality Golden Retriever Breeder" just said you go by the OFA recommendations and not the parent club. As a Golden breeder you would think you'd be looking for more specialized recommendations for clearances since the OFA has a general guideline and a breed specific guideline for Goldens. Your statement expresses that you ignore the OFA breed specific recommendations and TOTALLY ignoring the parent club recommendations. What ethical breeder would do that when Goldens, who are specifically at higher risk for hart issues (SAS, Hemangiosarcoma , DCM) more then most other breeds? What you put in that statement, I think, would kill your credibility, or at least to me it would, if I were looking for a new breeder.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Megora said:


> Because my older dog possibly has cancer (I'm praying hard every night that's not the case while we scramble for holistic treatments and second opinions), this might not be the case - but I really REALLY hope that after a year I will be paying $150 every year for eye ofas for 3 dogs.



A little off topic here but I wanted to chime in on your possible cancer issue you may be facing. I can recommend something if you're looking at Holistic treatments. I would have you look into Artemisinin. It is a sweet wormwood extract (sued to cure Malaria, a high ion parasite) I used on my last Golden. It attacks high iron cells and leaves normal cells alone. Tumors absorb iron in the cells (makes them grow and become dense) and they can't expel the iron. Mass cell tumors, mammary tumors along with a a handful of other cancers Artemisinin is effective on. My last golden developed a mammary mass and it had spread to her lungs. There were 3 dime sized nodules in her lungs. I did the research on the Artemisinin and found out about this. They gave Kira about 3 months to live. This was in early 2015. I was hoping it would just keep the nodules from growing anymore, as she didn't realized she was sick but this actually reduced each of the nodules to about the size of a tictac! Kira lived till July 31 2017 so that was about 2.5 years after only 3 months was given to live.



The course I did was 300mg of Artemisinin for 14 days and then off with a diet of high iron foods for about 4 or 5 days to "recharge" the nodules with iron so the Artemisinin would have the high iron cells to target. I'll link some info and the best place to buy the Artemisinin from.


Sorry I rambled on of topic, but I just wanted to give you some information when I saw you're dealing with a possible cancer issue.



https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/artemisinin-and-canine-cancer/
Artemisinin
https://nurseyourpet.com/artemisini...o-western-sage-that-may-help-cancer-patients/

A list of Cancers it's effective on... including for people.

*Breast cancer*
* Colon cancer*
* Human leukemia*
* Canine osteosarcoma*
* Prostate cancer*
* Pancreatic cancer*
* Glioblastoma*
* Human lymphoma*
* Melanoma*
* Ovarian cancer*
* Renal carcinoma*
* Neuroblastoma*
* Small-cell lung carcinoma*


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

Judeth said:


> Leave me alone. I have my clearance certificates for my dogs. I am not a member of the parent club and would never be a member. You are a bunch of bullies. I checked that box thinking I was in compliance with the parent club for all my clearances. My mistake. It is unchecked. My dogs are beautiful and healthy and there is nothing wrong with their hearts. Getting an appointment for eyes or heart is far away and takes months. Anyway I am perfectly satisfied with my clearances and the health of my dogs. Very rarely do I ever have a health issue. I have had very few slight heart murmurs in my puppies that cleared up and only one 3 that the Pup had to take some sort of meds. It was years ago and I do not remember the report. The Puppy is doing great last time I heard. Most people don’t have the clearances I have and it is really hard getting eye appointments every year far away. Then you have to wait for the AKC To show up on pedigree and AKC. But no excuse. I am happy with the clearances I have and the beautiful dogs I have. No skin problems. Great temperaments. So there you go. Keep hating on me. Leave me alone.There is no support here just insults and attacks no discussions. Sick.


Are you a child? "Leave me alone...wahhhhh"

I'm a golden retriever owner, not a breeder - there is no way in HELL I'd even consider you for a future pup, just by the way you present yourself here, throwing tantrums. 

Besides that, I'd check you off my list precisely because you are so cavalier about not following the GRCA Code of Ethics. I'd prefer to work with an ethical breeder, who does things the RIGHT way.

Edited to add: Not only would I not ever consider you for a puppy for the above reasons, you are also intellectually dishonest, and I don't support dishonest people. 

I've been here 3 1/2 years and not once have I seen any of the participants advertise their own puppies. And they really don't have to anyway, most of them have long wait lists and every puppy has a home. 

You're one of those people who can't take responsibility for their own actions and decisions, and can only deal with it by blaming others. Quit playing the victim card and take ownership of your own mis-steps.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Eric - thanks!

I'm willing to try anything. He's currently getting a boost in fish (sardines), New Zealand honey, tumeric... and have some mushroom stuff on order. 

I'm thrilled he will eat anything because we're going to fight to keep him healthy.


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## Neeko13 (Jul 10, 2010)

Ok all...I am going to step in here...

There is no need to be rude or disrespectful to another member because you may or may not agree with their viewpoint or opinions...

Everyone is entitled to their own point of view and opinions. If you cant post a comment without being rude or disrespectful, kindly refrain.

All member and All Goldens are welcome regardless of where your Golden came from. Please respect others, this forum is not about bashing others. 
If this thread continues to bash others, it will be closed. Thank you..


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

So, rightly or wrongly, this exchange has confirmed my dim view of breeders who advertise “English Creams.”


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I wish there were at least one per region of the US that I felt great about. Isn't that a shame?


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

I am still stuck on the fact that she thinks it is hard to find a cardiologist. UC-Davis is less than 90 miles from UC-Davis and Dr. Stern. I would love to have that caliber of a cardiologist that close to home.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

BlazenGR said:


> I am still stuck on the fact that she thinks it is hard to find a cardiologist. UC-Davis is less than 90 miles from UC-Davis and Dr. Stern. I would love to have that caliber of a cardiologist that close to home.


Ditto- 
it seems that 'too far' is defined as 'further than my vet's office where they'll give a quick listen while they're doing something else'.


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## Dustyrags (May 1, 2018)

Has anyone actually contacted the OFA and AKC and requested what the requirements where for the heart clearances for passing for the Golden Retriever? I am well aware of the fact that the parent club has to adhere to the AKC's rules and regulations and I feel that what all of you are doing is beyond their regulations. In fact, I contacted them and they were not in conjuncture with those who were representing a parent club where most of you who are trolling this thread with the intent of extreme cyber bulling of other breeders who do have clearances that are approved by the AKC. I would hope that some day those of you would answer my questions of why you would (prism goldens) suggest that a potential puppy buyer go to shows to find a puppy when you (who is so knowledgeable in all areas of dogs) and would allow dogs with horrible health clearances to be in shows. Wouldn't this suggest to a potential puppy owner that it is recommended that they purchase a puppy with incorrect hips and elbows etc. I feel that the information that is throwing up out of all of your mouths is just insane and is confusing those who would enjoy a puppy that would be with them for many years to come. I think everyone would appreciate it if you would leave the breeders alone, especially when none of you have the balls to actually pick up a phone and talk to another breeder since your are all so scared to actually find out who is on the other end of the thread. You are too scared to speak face to face on the phone to discuss any of these issue and find out what actually is going on with the breeding of the breeders; however, you do have the ball to talk about them based on what you can troll online.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Dustyrags said:


> Has anyone actually contacted the OFA and AKC and requested what the requirements where for the heart clearances for passing for the Golden Retriever? I am well aware of the fact that the parent club has to adhere to the AKC's rules and regulations and I feel that what all of you are doing is beyond their regulations. In fact, I contacted them and they were not in conjuncture with those who were representing a parent club where most of you who are trolling this thread with the intent of extreme cyber bulling of other breeders who do have clearances that are approved by the AKC. I would hope that some day those of you would answer my questions of why you would (prism goldens) suggest that a potential puppy buyer go to shows to find a puppy when you (who is so knowledgeable in all areas of dogs) and would allow dogs with horrible health clearances to be in shows. Wouldn't this suggest to a potential puppy owner that it is recommended that they purchase a puppy with incorrect hips and elbows etc. I feel that the information that is throwing up out of all of your mouths is just insane and is confusing those who would enjoy a puppy that would be with them for many years to come. I think everyone would appreciate it if you would leave the breeders alone, especially when none of you have the balls to actually pick up a phone and talk to another breeder since your are all so scared to actually find out who is on the other end of the thread. You are too scared to speak face to face on the phone to discuss any of these issue and find out what actually is going on with the breeding of the breeders; however, you do have the ball to talk about them based on what you can troll online.


There is no need to contact AKC orOFA as to the core clearances. They are published every other month in the GRNews. 
This sentence makes absolutely no sense: "I am well aware of the fact that the parent club has to adhere to the AKC's rules and regulations and I feel that what all of you are doing is beyond their regulations. In fact, I contacted them and they were not in conjuncture with those who were representing a parent club where most of you who are trolling this thread with the intent of extreme cyber bulling of other breeders who do have clearances that are approved by the AKC."
Perhaps you can write it without attempting to use language you aren't comfortable with, and then its intent would be clearer?
Going to shows to meet breeders is a great idea. Clearances are not required to show- but no one would suggest a puppy person not do research on breeders they meet at shows. Dogs who "have horrible health clearances"- who gets to judge that? Puppy buyers need to learn how to discern safety. That's what we do here much of the time- help them learn how. 

You never did answer- what is your kennel name? It seems to be you who is 'too scared' . And you are not helping your friend in the least by continuing to show your lack of education on clearances and your crude language. 

And on that crude language- I have no balls. I have a pair of ovaries. Neither are required to use the telephone... which I would do if I had questions not answerable by doing OFA research. Transparency in breeding is important. If someone isn't willing to pay the $8 to OFA to list eyes for example, me calling them isn't going to make them more willing to be transparent.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Since I am reasonably sure you do not read this every other month in the GRN, Dustyrags, here you go (emphasis mine):

Responsibilities As A Breeder
General Guidelines
I. Overview
GRCA members who breed Golden Retrievers are encouraged to maintain the purpose of the breed, and select breeding stock with the objectives of GRCA in mind; that is:

Recognizing that the Golden Retriever breed was developed as a useful gun dog, to encourage improvement by careful and selective breeding of Golden Retrievers that possess the appearance, structure, soundness, temperament, natural ability, and personality that are characterized in the standard of the breed, and to do all possible to advance and promote these qualities. (Paraphrased from Article I, Section 2, of the GRCA Bylaws.)
II. Dealing with Others
GRCA members are expected to demonstrate fairness and honesty – including full disclosure – in dealing with other owners and breeders, purchasers of dogs, and the general public. Owners of dogs involved in a breeding or sale should ensure that appropriate documentation is readily available to those concerned regarding results of screening examinations as recommended below. If any such examinations have not been done, this should be stated; and any major past or present health or temperament concerns should be disclosed.

III. Responsibilities to the Dogs
Members who breed should sell puppies, permit stud service, and/or lease dogs only to individuals who give satisfactory evidence that they will give proper care and attention to the dogs concerned, and who may be expected to act within the intent of the statements of this Code of Ethics. Members should not sell dogs at auction, or to brokers or commercial dealers. Breeders should understand that they may need to take back, or assist in finding a new home for, any dog they produce at any time in its life, if requested to do so.

IV. Record keeping
GRCA members are expected to follow AKC requirements for record keeping, identification of dogs, and registration procedures. They are encouraged to use clear, concise, written contracts to document the sale of dogs, use of stud dogs, and lease arrangements; including the use, when appropriate, of non-breeding agreements and/or Limited Registration.

Specific Guidelines
I. Dogs selected for breeding should:
Be of temperament typical of the breed, i.e., stable, friendly, trainable, and willing to work. Temperament is of utmost importance to the breed and must never be neglected or altered from the Standard.
Be of conformation typical of the breed.
Be in overall good health, and be physically and mentally mature (which is generally not until two years of age).
Possess examination reports and certifications as outlined below to evaluate and document status concerning recommended screening examinations; and these reports should be publicly available in an approved online database. Approved online databases include registries under management of veterinary professional associations; registries maintained by non-profit organizations with veterinary staff or advisory boards; and university-based registries under veterinary advisement. U.S. registries should be used for dogs residing in the U.S., unless previously evaluated (as in III below) prior to importation.
Hip and elbow certifications from the Ontario Veterinary College (OVC) prior to its discontinuation in 2012 are acceptable for dogs residing in the U.S., providing the dog was 24 months of age or older at the time of the examination. Reports should be recorded in an approved online database as described above.
Submission of abnormal information to the OFA online database is encouraged.
II. The following reports are acceptable for dogs residing in the U.S.:
Hips – a report from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) or PennHIP at 24 months of age or older. Since PennHIP results are not automatically published, these results should be recorded in an approved online database as described above.
Elbows – a report from the OFA at 24 months of age or older.
Hearts – a report from a Diplomat of the American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (Cardiology), at 12 months of age or older. Report should be recorded in an approved online database as described above.
Eyes – a report from a Diplomat of the American College of Veterinary Ophthalmology. Examinations should be done within 12 months prior to a breeding, and results should be recorded in an approved online database as described above.
Dogs that produce offspring should continue to have ophthalmology examinations on a yearly basis for their lifetime, and if the findings permit recertification, the results should continue to be recorded in an approved online database.
For frozen semen from deceased dogs, either an ophthalmology examination within 18 months of the date of death, or status that was in compliance with the Code of Ethics in effect at the time of the dog’s death, will be considered current.
III. For dogs residing outside of the U.S.:
Reports that satisfy the Code of Ethics of the parent Golden Retriever club of the country in which they reside are acceptable.
Every reasonable effort should be made to parallel as closely as possible the spirit of the Code of Ethics as it applies to dogs residing in the U.S. (section II above), including recording reports in approved online databases.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

This thread has gone off course, rule violations continue, it's being closed.


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