# More topics for discussion--re-running marks, training grounds



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

A couple more topics for discussion, would love to hear people weigh in on these.

1. Have seen this argued both ways, and would like to know what folks here think. If your dog doesn't do well on a multiple marking scenario in training, do you repeat the exact same marks? Do you simplify it by breaking it into singles and then repeat it? Or do you move to a new location, simplify, and run the new set-up?

2. If you know you are going to run a hunt test at a particular ground, do you attempt to get there to train at some point, or do you avoid training there on purpose?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Great questions, Barb!

#1 - "It depends." I would have to say it depends what the setup was and what happened. Was it just a fluke thing? Did the dog repeat some mistake or bad habit it is shown to be prone to? Was the setup difficult and if you "helped" the dog while running it, did he figure it out? By failing do you mean you had to handle, or get gunner help, recall & resend? Or just a gigantic big hunt? Was it a setup beyond the dog's capabilities, so repeating it is worthless at this point in his training? The answer will be different for each dog and each setup. When training in a group there is rarely enough time to run a dog on the setup, break it down into singles and run again, then run again as a setup, so while that may be ideal sometimes it's not practical. If I have any doubts that my dog cannot do the multiple correctly, I will run as singles first or run the key bird(s) as a single first. Then I feel if the dog messes up on the multiple, I am fair to correct. I loathe "TESTING" in training and running a lot of cold triples counts as testing in my book. 

#2 : I can't say I've ever trained anywhere specifically because they were running a test there. I have certainly trained on testing grounds prior to a test but only because that was the only place available to train. In FL I have use of Lazy J in Williston (Jacksonville RC), Wayne's property in Montverde (Mid-FL GRC & Central FL HRC) and Whisper Creek in St. Augustine (NE FL HRC), this is where they hold tests but it's also where I train year-round. In OH the only place is Hambden, where they run all the tests in northern Ohio. When I ran Slater in Master there two years ago, I specifically remember training there on a Wednesday or Thursday before a test we were entered in. Two different ponds I set up marks & blinds that ended up being EXACTLY the same marks or blinds in the test. They were not anything I had seen done before there, honestly I rolled up, looked at the terrain and picked out the hardest things I could given the limitations of the land, and turns out great minds think alike because those were exactly what the judges came up with. I was training alone, it was pure coincidence! Did it help my dog? You bet! Was it cheating the system? No -- I had no clue what the judges would pick out. Could it have hurt me? I suppose, if the judge's setup had been similar yet slightly off, my dog may have assumed the wrong thing.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

#1 if my dog is having trouble on a double, then I run as singles and re-run as a double. I've found running into the sun a problem for my dogs especially. I keep my triples really short to make sure she's successful. Run as a double and a single if any problems.

#2 this one is tougher. We have a location that most NAHRA tests are at. It's a private farm that normally has buffalo on it. So using the farm for training is out. This farm has horrible mucky peat bog ponds that I would like to train on because they are so difficult for the dogs. I've tried replicating the ponds elsewhere but haven't been successful. Later this month I'm flying to Sacramento to run a double header hunt test. I get off the plane Friday night and head to the test on Saturday morning. I've used google earth to try to see, I've even gone to YouTube to watch hunt tests at that location. But nothing like the real thing. Not only will the conditions be different, but the weather will be HOT and dusty, something my dog knows nothing about. Running a dog in -20 F she can do, she's never run anything above 75 F, so 95 F will be a challenge for her. Last year's test in YouTube showed clouds of dust around every bird that was thrown as it landed, yuck!


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

1) It depends - like Anney said
2) Yes; the only time I wouldn't the week before the test b/c I've heard of dogs remembering where things were in training and going there at the test


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks for the great responses.

1. Good questions Anney. I am thinking of a situation where the dog puts up a gorilla hunt, and then ultimately ends up needing to be helped in some way. If he resolves it on his own, I don't consider that having failed the set-up.
My gut reaction is to re-run the exact same thing a second time, rather than break it into singles. But Anney is right, it really would depend on a lot of things. I guess if I realized I had set up something too hard for him, I would have to break it into singles but at that point I probably wouldn't re=run the multiple, just let him succeed on the singles and call it a day. I'd love it if others could offer some commentary on this one.

2. I don't really have access to a lot of the places they run tests, either, but my gut reaction again is to avoid them. I would be afraid they'd set the test in the same field(s), but in a different location, and he would remember the old stuff and try to head back to it.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I think Goldens remember things WAY beyond a week! It's something we've noticed at Dan's, if we use the same field even several weeks later he remembers where the old marks/blinds were.



boomers_dawn said:


> 1) It depends - like Anney said
> 2) Yes; the only time I wouldn't the week before the test b/c I've heard of dogs remembering where things were in training and going there at the test


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Barb, you are so right about remembering! How many dogs run to the same tree on a walk, hoping to see that squirrel that they saw 6 months ago in a tree. They are a lot smarter than we think.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

1) The pro we sometimes train with said to simplify - singles or lower distances (especially for a younger dog) and then run again after a couple other dogs. 

2) From what I noticed at the tests on the farms I have been so far, the test itself is never on the same grounds you train on. They normally keep areas and ponds designated just for the test that you cannot even get to and train on.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> A couple more topics for discussion, would love to hear people weigh in on these.
> 
> 1. Have seen this argued both ways, and would like to know what folks here think. If your dog doesn't do well on a multiple marking scenario in training, do you repeat the exact same marks? Do you simplify it by breaking it into singles and then repeat it? Or do you move to a new location, simplify, and run the new set-up?
> 
> 2. If you know you are going to run a hunt test at a particular ground, do you attempt to get there to train at some point, or do you avoid training there on purpose?


1. Singles: I rarely repeat even a single mark after my dog has run it; almost never from the same line. If the dog screwed it up and I feel compelled to repeat it, I'll move up or otherwise move the line in order to affect the factor that threw the dog off line (sometimes I make it harder, sometimes easier). Again, repeats of singles are rare for me ... probably not more frequently than once every month or two. 
Multiples: I never repeat a multiple as a multiple.
Of course, my concern is that repeating marks can lead to returning to old falls ... basically, I feel that repeating gives the dog a license to return to an old fall. 
And I would strongly suggest to NEVER repeat a multiple if the problem was returning to an old fall - the logic should be apparent, however I have a training buddy, who's actually pretty good, but he'll do this on occasion ... it never works out well. 
My strong preference is to move to a new location and set up a similar test. Simplify if warranted.
BTW, in training, I choose to run singles with multiple gunners in the field most of the time ... probably 70-80% of my dogs' marks are singles.

2. There are some trial locations where there are only a half dozen or so all-age quality water blinds. I have gone to a couple of those locations to teach those particular blinds. Otherwise, I've not done that. 

FTGoldens


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

FTGoldens said:


> ...
> BTW, in training, I choose to run singles with multiple gunners in the field most of the time ... probably 70-80% of my dogs' marks are singles….


Do you mind explaining the reasons for this? I'm very new.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

nolefan said:


> Do you mind explaining the reasons for this? I'm very new.


Once I know that my dog can count to two or, depending on the age of the dog, three or four, I start intensely focusing on marking accuracy and fighting factors.
It is generally believed that running mostly singles improves a dog's marking accuracy. (Frankly, I have seen this first-hand. A training buddy had a Lab :yuck: that in the fall season was consistently finishing Ams and Opens, but always with a JAM. Over the course of the winter, he ran almost exclusively singles, often off multiple gunner stations. The following spring season he marked much better and picked up several placements. I became a believer.)
Also, when running singles, the dog is certain of its destination and is more likely to fight the factors which influence its line to the mark (I don't focus on the line, per se, but I do focus on the dog learning to fight factors). So that's how they learn to run along the side of a hill instead of falling off it or climbing up it, or angling through a strip of cover, or jumping a branch, or etc., without handling (that's for another discussion, but I want my dogs to make their own decision to go straight instead of me handling them to keep them going straight).
Also #2, if a dog commits a mistake by, for example, avoiding a strip of cover or not fighting some other factor, when running multiples you may not be sure if the dog simply didn't remember the mark accurately (no correction) or is caving in to the factor (correction may be called for), however with singles you can be pretty certain that the dog is caving in.
Once a dog has learned that there is life beyond singles (or doubles), then I back off memory building and focus on improving marking accuracy and factor fighting ability. I don't forget about memory and will still run a multiple a couple of times a week, but the majority of marks will be run as singles.
But, maybe that's just me....

FTGoldens


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

FT Goldens, the pro that I take lessons from believes the exact same thing, for the exact same reasons.
We run almost all singles. But we, too, use multiple holding blinds in the field to avoid head swinging nonsense, which Tito is quite prone to. This way he never really *knows* how many birds are going to come down before he gets sent.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> FT Goldens, the pro that I take lessons from believes the exact same thing, for the exact same reasons.
> We run almost all singles. But we, too, use multiple holding blinds in the field to avoid head swinging nonsense, which Tito is quite prone to. This way he never really *knows* how many birds are going to come down before he gets sent.


A huge omission on my part! :doh: Thanks for the reminder about multiples leading to head swinging ... that's a humongous factor.

FTGoldens


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> A couple more topics for discussion, would love to hear people weigh in on these.
> 
> 1. Have seen this argued both ways, and would like to know what folks here think. If your dog doesn't do well on a multiple marking scenario in training, do you repeat the exact same marks?


Generally, no. I keep a journal on each dog, and make special note of a type of marking concept or bird placement that a given dog has problems with, and arrange subsequent set ups to have that type of mark in then to train through exposure. Repeating failed or faulty marks often results in repeating the mistake.


hotel4dogs said:


> Do you simplify it by breaking it into singles and then repeat it?


No. One way to approach a type of mark the dog has been weak on is to present it in other set ups in simlified ways, but I don't generally re run the same marks.


hotel4dogs said:


> Or do you move to a new location, simplify, and run the new set-up?


Yes, often. Better training that way, and don't form an expectation of returning to old falls.


hotel4dogs said:


> 2. If you know you are going to run a hunt test at a particular ground, do you attempt to get there to train at some point, or do you avoid training there on purpose?


Exactly the opposite. You have no way of knowing where the judges will set up their tests, or what type of tests, and you may set up close enough to set your dog up to err due to conflict between the two. Go train your dog. Do well rounded training that prepares your dog to do the work.

"If your dog can mark, and will do as he's told, you don't need to worry what the test is." Cotton Pershall, Hall of Fame trainer

EvanG


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

In my limited experience rerunning a multiple set up is rarely useful. I too will run the marks as singles first or just run the key mark as a single and then run the multiple if I think a I need to teach it. We run singles a lot more often then multiples.

I think if conditions differ greatly you may want to train in the area a bit before the test. 
Last weekend me ran tests where the grounds were right next to a busy highway. I think the noise and traffic motion in the backroundi really affected Winter. Since it is the only place I can think of that is that close to a highway, we will go train on those grounds.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I totally agree about training in the area, if conditions are different. If you are going to be testing where there is a lot of very different cover, or where the land is very flat if you have lots of hills, etc., I would think you would want the dog to experience it before a test!




hollyk said:


> In my limited experience rerunning a multiple set up is rarely useful. I too will run the marks as singles first or just run the key mark as a single and then run the multiple if I think a I need to teach it. We run singles a lot more often then multiples.
> 
> I think if conditions differ greatly you may want to train in the area a bit before the test.
> Last weekend me ran tests where the grounds were right next to a busy highway. I think the noise ned traffic motion in the backroundi really effected Winter. Since it is the only place I can think of that is that close to a highway, we will go train on those grounds.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

EvanG said:


> Generally, no. I keep a journal on each dog, and make special note of a type of marking concept or bird placement that a given dog has problems with, and arrange subsequent set ups to have that type of mark in then to train through exposure. Repeating failed or faulty marks often results in repeating the mistake.No.


I do keep a journal except the last two years during our HT season I seem to fall off the journal band wagon. Last year my not doing it hurt us. I believe it took me a longer to recognize that Winter had picked up a pop on her water blinds. By the time I did see it, it was getting cold we were coming out of swimming water. I spent the next few months worrying about that pop. Luckily, we had a pretty mild early winter last year and we were able to train in running/splashing water quite a bit though late fall and early winter. That work did translate into swimming water. You think I would have learned my lesson but I bet I haven't written in it since July. Hmmm, I think I better go find it.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

nolefan said:


> Do you mind explaining the reasons for this? I'm very new.


I do the same. It's good for focus, and helps to isolate marking placement concepts. We have to be aware of head swinging on multiple marks with high quality retrievers, and running a preponderance of singles in multiple set ups help keep our dogs more focused on individual marks. 

I often set up triples or quads, place an obvious flyer station at a highly visible spot, and shoot the flyer first or second. That forms an expectation that more will happen *after *the flyer that is also important. if you haven't shown your dog many flyers you'll see why they start head swinging when you do!

EvanG


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

hollyk said:


> Last weekend me ran tests where the grounds were right next to a busy highway. I think the noise and traffic motion in the backroundi really affected Winter. Since it is the only place I can think of that is that close to a highway, we will go train on those grounds.


That's another good point. Our dogs, whether hunters, hunt testers or field trial competitors, must learn to focus on their work regardless of the potential distractions. (Rain can be a distraction for some dogs.) I often train in an area which is replete with walkers, dog walkers, and joggers, so my dogs learn to ignore or at least deal with those distractions, although it takes time. I occasionally train with a guy that mostly trains on private grounds and expects, even when training in public areas, that the training environment will be "golf tournament quiet," so he often gets frustrated when trying to run his dog in the public areas. But at a trial or test, there's always chatter in the gallery, or some dog on a truck howling or barking, or etc. And hunting situations are sometimes filled with distractions. So yes, it's important to expose the dogs to noisy, active environments in training, so it's not the first time that they've had to deal with such things. Of course, when teaching something difficult or potentially high stress, I try to avoid the chaos, but I generally don't take great strides to avoid the noise and action.

FTGoldens


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Dogs learn to isolate and mark off of singles is what has been drummed into me. We talk about that they are building a picture as you hold them on the mark. The longer they are looking the better the detail. We want to get them in the habit of building the picture for as long as possible, not seeing the bird hit and immediately turning to next mark. Too quick of a turn to the next mark we call flash marking. If they flash mark and that mark has tough bird placement the dog just might not have enough detail in the picture to get them to the mark. Too much movement by the dog at the line will also mess up the picture. If Winter is anticipating the next mark and turning off too soon I will inevitable here a voice behind me saying "Your dog is telling me you are running too many multiples."
Edited to add: If she is head swinging she will see singles in the next few training sessions.


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