# Northern VA Breeder Info: PJs Goldens



## luv2smile (May 27, 2010)

Hello all,

This is my first post on the forum, but I've been reading posts for months now. My husband and I are looking for a golden pup as a family pet and I never realized there was so much information/research involved when I started the search  My hope was to find a puppy in the <$1,000 range which of course is on the low end of quality breeders, as I have learned. We just want a good chance at a healthy puppy who will hopefully lead a healthy, long life and be well taken care of as a puppy before we get him (raised in a home, socialized, etc) with an ethical breeder. 

I wanted to run this by you all and see if anyone had any personal experience...looking at the following breeder: PJs Goldens

http://www.breeders.net/detail.php?id=218074

I am told they have a copy of Jasmines hips and that her heart and Eyes are cleared as well (not sure if those are documented?) and that the male has all his clearances. They asked questions of us about living situations, etc. which I liked. They said they have a 2 year health guarentee for heart, hip, and eyes. Their charge is $600.

Any feedback/ suggestions? 

Thanks in advance!


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I am going to reserve my judgment until you can provide the sire and dam's AKC registered names. We need them to verify the clearances on www.offa.org

Are you able to get this information?

At the very least, they should be doing hips, ELBOWS, eyes, and hearts. Elbow dysplasia is a problem in our breed. By the looks of the website, I'm not sure I would recommend them but like I said, I guess we can wait and see the clearances. A word of wisdom though, is that reputable breeders have their litters sold ahead of time before they are born because of word of mouth. They don't need a website like that to aide them. This website looks like it could be a front for puppy mills.

Regarding the warranty, what does it entail to get the full 2 years? Does the dog need to be given back in order for a refund? Obviously that is out of the question. It should be a cash refund toward veterinary bills.

You happen to be in an area where the price of a quality golden retriever puppy is more expensive. In my opinion, paying a few hundred dollars now up front may save you a lot of money and headaches in the future. It's not a guarantee, but it certainly puts things in your favor.

Most importantly- WELCOME to the forum. So glad to see people doing their homework before they bring a furry friend into the family!


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

There are some red flags including a lack of information needed to verify clearances, registry, and pedigree just for starters.


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## luv2smile (May 27, 2010)

Thanks for the reply and welcome. I will email the breeder back for the parent's AKC registered names. Will that be sufficient? I am still learning all the questions to ask. I'm actually a couple hours south of DC so I've been looking north and south for breeders. 

My search has definately been eye opening....it is definately a big jump from seeing puppies listed for $400 (and having family that paid that much several years ago and seem to have great dogs) to the average cost from quality breeders, but it is scary to read about some of the practices/ behavior from so called breeders as well.


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

How far are you willing to travel? If this breeder does not work out, maybe some people on here could suggest other breeders. By no means am I anywhere near an expert at this but this breeder does look a little fishy to me.


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## luv2smile (May 27, 2010)

We don't mind traveling (prefferably within 5 hours, but could do a bit more). Recommendations would be wonderful. 

I don't want to sacrafice quality/health for price and definatley do understand all the costs involved in owning a golden and would rather pay now, but am still hoping I can find a quality pup for under 1k. Maybe I can't tho. 

Thanks again for all the help.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I would expect to pay $800 - 1500 for a good pet quality golden. If only because of the breeders expenses have gone up. I'm not thrilled about it either, but then again most of us don't think twice before dropping $1000 down for vacations or inaminate objects. You just start budgeting way ahead of time. Plan one or two years ahead. 

Admittedly, I would not pay over $1500 for a pet. Which is why I choke when I see how much people are paying for pet quality goldens they can't even show in the AKC. :yuck:

If a breeder is asking for only $600, somehow that makes me wonder if they are cutting corners. Or know they shouldn't ask for more. :uhoh:


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## luv2smile (May 27, 2010)

Megora said:


> Admittedly, I would not pay over $1500 for a pet. Which is why I choke when I see how much people are paying for pet quality goldens they can't even show in the AKC. :yuck:


I hear ya  It is a fine line. I'm very money/budget savy which I guess is good and bad. The one side of my brain says even 1k is A LOT for a pet, but the other side of my brain says that I'm also the person who has in my puppy start up budget, a line item for a $500 vacuum to help manage the hair  We have actually been planning/ wanting a puppy for a couple years now and trying to get things into place. The line item for the puppy itself tho I guess I budgeted low on.


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

Maybe you could contact the Gunpowder River Golden Retriever Club and the Potomac Valley Golden Retriever Club, both located in the Washington metro area. They maybe able to direct you to more reputable breeders. Also, if you type in breeders in Va on the search tab, you may be able to find some threads from other people searching in your area.


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## luv2smile (May 27, 2010)

What about red flags for this breeder: 

http://www.goldenrosekennel.com/home.html

They have pedigree links on their site. I'm trying to figure out all the key information that I should be looking for.


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

Hmm... two of the girls recently turned two years old, and another one will be two in August.


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## eeneymeanymineymo (Oct 5, 2009)

I'm not sure exactly what Chris Browning charges for her pet pups but I would highly recommend Eldorado Goldens: http://www.eldoradogoldens.com/litters.htm


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## luv2smile (May 27, 2010)

My husband actually talked to Chris today. She was very helpful and informative about looking for breeders and of course goldens. She is at $2,000 though so definately on the high end and out of our range, but I definately understand why. My husband was very impressed.


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## luv2smile (May 27, 2010)

Mssjnnfer said:


> Hmm... two of the girls recently turned two years old, and another one will be two in August.


It lookes like the mother of the current litter turned 2 and they breed her a couple months after that. What do 3 girls all around 2 tell us? Too much breeding? too early? 

Sorry for all the questions....


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

luv2smile said:


> *It lookes like the mother of the current litter turned 2 and they breed her a couple months after that.* What do 3 girls all around 2 tell us? Too much breeding? too early?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions....


I noticed that too... 




> Roger and I moved to our current location in order to have more room for our dogs, and to expand our breeding program. Our youngsters are getting old enough for breeding, and I am anxious to see the puppies from them as we improve our lines. We are still a very small operation, and will not have more than 3-4 litters a year.


This was another thought... just that there are people who feel that having more than 2 litters a year is a bit too much. But I think it depends on what you compare to...? One of the lab breeders I inquired with is planning only 1 breeding next year. 

Larger breeding operations, on the other hand, might be breeding 2 or 3 dogs at a time and offer seperate litters three times a year. 

(admittedly I squinted when I saw before their names on K9 data - "International CH"). 

Here is the male's OFA info -
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1337278#animal

and the female's
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1408427#animal

Personally speaking, I was a little uncomfortable about the "fair" hips of the female, but that IS a passing grade and it doesn't guarantee that her pups will have hip dysplasia, anymore than an "excellent" grade would guarantee excellent hips. 

It couldn't hurt to check them out. Don't feel you have to settle with anyone because the price is right or their dogs are beautiful. Interview the breeder in person, ask her questions. 

Ideally - a great breeder is somebody you keep in touch with, and who is easy to deal with. If you have any health problems, you do not want to deal with somebody who is obnoxious or overprotective of her program, and places all the blame on you the owner. And there are plenty of excellent breeders who do not have social skills. 

One of the breeders I went with was the type who did the footwork for my family when my golden had elbow dysplasia and offered support to us. She was the type of person who chit-chatted with us on the phone and was eager for pictures of our golden _all through his life._ And she invited all the owners back for yearly get togethers and even invited us to bring our golden in for visits to help with his socialization. She did do some dipsy-do stuff (mainly the dogs she chose to breed and the chaos in the house teaching the puppies to bark and have accidents INSIDE the house)then and later on, which is why I did not go back to her. 

So I guess what I'm saying - pay a house visit and see how the adults are. If they are barking and it is loud in the house, odds are that your puppy will be a barker. If they are well behaved and gentle and the house is clean, then that is a good thing.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

If you had to pick between PJ's and Golden Rose- I'd choose Golden Rose.

Here are some other places to check out...

Eldorado (I see you've already checked them out. I recently saw one of their bitches at a show in Pittsburgh- gorgeous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Sweet Lea: *sweetleagold.angelfire.com

Since you're willing to travel, here are a few more to check out. I don't know what is too far and what isn't... so here you go!

Gaylans (NY) **www.gaylans.com
**Goodtime Golden Retrievers*

* Lisa Smith
Pound Ridge, NY USA 10576 
 [email protected]

**Honeybear Goldens*

* Kelly Shuffelbottom
Lancaster, PA USA 17603 
 [email protected]
443-822-9833

**Hyegold*

* Barbara & Richard Martin
Finleyville, PA USA 15330-2440 
 [email protected]
 www.hyegoldgoldens.com


*


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## 2golddogs (Oct 19, 2009)

Another breeder that I am familiar with is Aufern goldens outside of Harpers Ferry, WV. The breeder is a member of GRCA and Potomac Valley Golden Retriever Club. She is active in conformation, agility and field trials and is a responsible breeder that gets clearances on her dogs. I haven't talked with her recently so am not aware if she has an upcoming litter, but you can check the website. She doesn't breed every year.


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## damita (Jun 4, 2009)

Megora said:


> Here is the male's OFA info -
> http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1337278#animal
> 
> and the female's
> ...


More worrisome to me is that the male's sire has an elbow number but no hips??? And that both of his parents have elbow numbers but no hips too??? Too many holes for my liking. Haven't actually looked at the site but did follow these 2 OFA links.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

damita said:


> More worrisome to me is that the male's sire has an elbow number but no hips??? And that both of his parents have elbow numbers but no hips too??? Too many holes for my liking. Haven't actually looked at the site but did follow these 2 OFA links.


*nods* I noticed that too after I posted the links. I went to the vertical pedigree and it showed all of that at a glance.

http://www.offa.org/vertpedigree.html?appnum=1337278#animal


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

damita said:


> More worrisome to me is that the male's sire has an elbow number but no hips??? And that both of his parents have elbow numbers but no hips too??? Too many holes for my liking. Haven't actually looked at the site but did follow these 2 OFA links.



Which is why it is ALWAYS so important to talk to the breeder about these things. There are some VERY responsible breeders who believe in PennHip evaluations of hips over OFA and thus only do PennHip for the hips. However PennHip does not evaluate elbows so then they are limited to where to have them evaluated. So that could be why some of these dogs have OFA numbers for the elbows but not the hips.


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## luv2smile (May 27, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback all. Golden Rose has two upcoming litters (Sam and Lily, Sam and Summer) and they are listed on the Tarheel GRC page under recommended breeders. Lily is listed as having good hips. 

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1378759#animal

So my concern should be the missing hips on the male side? How far back through the pedigree is acceptable to have clearances?


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

luv2smile said:


> Thanks for the feedback all. Golden Rose has two upcoming litters (Sam and Lily, Sam and Summer) and they are listed on the Tarheel GRC page under recommended breeders. Lily is listed as having good hips.
> 
> http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1378759#animal
> 
> So my concern should be the missing hips on the male side? How far back through the pedigree is acceptable to have clearances?


See my post just before this, we posted at the same time.


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## luv2smile (May 27, 2010)

AmbikaGR said:


> Which is why it is ALWAYS so important to talk to the breeder about these things. There are some VERY responsible breeders who believe in PennHip evaluations of hips over OFA and thus only do PennHip for the hips. However PennHip does not evaluate elbows so then they are limited to where to have them evaluated. So that could be why some of these dogs have OFA numbers for the elbows but not the hips.


 
This is very good to know. I will talk to the breeder and see what they say. I think I'm going to keep this breeder on our list for now and see if we can go for a visit. You guys have been very helpful.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Good luck in your search for YOUR pup. It is out there just be patient and thorough. :wavey:


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## damita (Jun 4, 2009)

luv2smile said:


> So my concern should be the missing hips on the male side? How far back through the pedigree is acceptable to have clearances?


I like to see full clearances for a minimum of 3 generations if not 5 (depending on ages - elbows have only been the norm for about 10-15 years I think). 

No Pennhip numbers are listed on K9data for the dogs in question but maybe you are right and they were not input. Please note that Pennhip gives a number to all evaluations and it is up to you to decipher the numbers on the report to figure out if they are of breeding material or not. I believe MOST breeders who do Pennhip also do OFA as one of the shots required for Pennhip is the OFA standard view and if you are submitting elbows to them it is only an extra $15-20 to include the hips as well.


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## luv2smile (May 27, 2010)

The breeder emailed me back...she said that sam's sire has a prelim OFA clearance (result of "good"), but they aren't sure if his owners did a permenant one. She said they have sent an email to the owner, but that they had tried contacting him before on this question with no luck. 

I know many people would consider it a risk...I'm just not sure how I feel about it. We are planning a vist to see the kennel/ parents and further talk to the breeder.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

luv2smile said:


> The breeder emailed me back...she said that sam's sire has a prelim OFA clearance (result of "good"), but they aren't sure if his owners did a permenant one. She said they have sent an email to the owner, but that they had tried contacting him before on this question with no luck.
> 
> I know many people would consider it a risk...I'm just not sure how I feel about it. We are planning a vist to see the kennel/ parents and further talk to the breeder.



Definitely not a good situation. The bitch owner should have known for certain the status of clearances long before ever breeding to this boy. It is a litter I would for sure pass on. However if you are still considering it understand that even a prelim clearance from OFA will have a certificate stating this. If they can not produce it there is likely NO clearance and you are being intentionally mislead. If they are not being up front about this what else is not being told to you. Really it is a HUGE risk, emotionally, financially and worse of all to the health of the pups in this litter. One that any responsible breeder would not be willing to make.


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## luv2smile (May 27, 2010)

I'm not sure this breeder is the one who bred this particular dog. We're talking about the sire of the sire of the litter we are looking at. Both parents of the puppies are owned by this breeder and have full clearances. Granted, I do think looking into the bloodline of their sire would have been something they would have done. But maybe there is more information. I would definately ask for a copy of the prelim. I will keep looking as well.


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## AllShookUp (May 7, 2010)

Hi there! :wavey: 
Check out Au-Fern, she looks like a smaller breeder. And I would recommend anything Laurie Doumaux had anything to do with (read how started kennel). I know you have a price in mind, but remember, pay now or you will pay later. Research is a good thing. I did mine each time & came back to the same lines full circle every time. I'm on having my 2nd golden hit 14 years old. And I'm getting a new boy in August from TopBrass-I'm so thrilled. 

Just for giggles:
http://www.au-fernretrievers.com/index.html

topbrass:
http://www.topbrass-retrievers.com/litters.htm


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## sameli102 (Aug 23, 2009)

www.lycinan.com. Is in MD, they have 2 litters born in June and they do all clearances. Not sure about prices.


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