# Breeder Wish List



## sconner (Apr 17, 2014)

Forum Members:
If distance were no object, which breeders would get your highest recommendation? Who are among the top breeders of quality Goldens in the country currently (2014)? We are willing to fly if necessary, but we live in central Virginia. Can forum members recommend reputable breeders near Virginia? Thanks in advance!


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

Gaylans if I actually could handle that kind of drive/energy. But otherwise Malagold and Highmark are my top picks.


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## sconner (Apr 17, 2014)

Thanks bunches for your reply. I will Google all 3. May I know why they are your top picks? Nice to meet you.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

You know... after seeing pics of her puppies the last few weeks. I think Kfayard ranks up there. 

Also Kristin Sipus down in Florida. Seeing her puppies SWIMMING at 6 weeks (7 weeks?). I don't want to share somebody else's video but I wish Anney could share that here, because seriously speaking it has to be the most _adorable_ thing I've ever seen. >.<


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

For Virginia of course I recommend Eldorado. There is also Sunkota, Golden Dome, and Terans.

If distance were no object, I would go for Karagold, Brookshire, Scion, Burnam Woods, Ridgeview, Summits, Twin-Beau-D, Venture, Numoon, Hytree, Harborview, Shilo, Sandpiper.


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## sconner (Apr 17, 2014)

What is Kristin's website?


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

The lines I have my eyes on are Harborview, Sunfire, and Ridgeview. Though Ridgeview's breeder retired, if you want a ridgeview's puppy, you'd need to get it from a co-owned litter.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

sconner said:


> What is Kristin's website?


I don't know if she has one.

Keep in mind not all breeders have websites - you have to contact the local breeding clubs to get in touch with them or find out if there are puppies available. 

Bertie's breeders do not have websites. I found out about his litter through the local golden retriever club (and glad I did).


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Topbrass and Fireside


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Briarwoodgoldens and Fireside - they are both in VA.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I have a dream breeder built in, but if I did not, DocMar, Mariah and Pebwin would be on my short list.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Brave said:


> The lines I have my eyes on are Harborview, Sunfire, and Ridgeview. Though Ridgeview's breeder retired, if you want a ridgeview's puppy, you'd need to get it from a co-owned litter.


That's not entirely true. She is just taking a break from showing and breeding for a bit 


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I will own a Docmar Golden one of these days...! I am also in the boat with Megora on Kristin with Richwood Goldens.

I like breeders that do it ALL. Kristin's litters are typically sold WAYYY in advance.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Megora said:


> You know... after seeing pics of her puppies the last few weeks. I think Kfayard ranks up there.
> 
> Also Kristin Sipus down in Florida. Seeing her puppies SWIMMING at 6 weeks (7 weeks?). I don't want to share somebody else's video but I wish Anney could share that here, because seriously speaking it has to be the most _adorable_ thing I've ever seen. >.<


AW! Thanks Kate! That means a lot  hopefully I will not disappoint.


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

I want a pup from kfayard ? 
It's on my wish list lol 


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Greetings from Richmond! I got my puppy from out of state, so I can't really speak to VA breeders I'd recommend. 

This is a fun question. Speaking of forum members we'd love to get a puppy from, I'd vote for kfayard (Rhythm, right?) as well, but also Jill at PoeticGold. I've liked the looks of Summit dogs but I don't know how often they breed? Mariah would also be on my list.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

For me, the top small breeder is Tamarack Goldens in Boise Idaho, so I chose a pup from there. Eirene Goldens in Canada timeless, Venture Goldens (CO) incredible program, Elysian Goldens (CO) breeding less these days but truly tiptop, Brookshire Goldens(MA) Harborview Goldens(PA),Thornelea Goldens (NH), and DocMar in MN.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Venture! I knew I was forgetting a few. I'd definitely add that to my list.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

sconner said:


> Thanks bunches for your reply. I will Google all 3. May I know why they are your top picks? Nice to meet you.


Gaylans because they are amazing performance dogs and have one of the best starts to life a puppy could get. 

Malagold and Highmark because I love their temperaments, I think they are truest to what a golden should be imho. And I like a more "correctly" structured dog that is balanced front to rear. Something I can look at and watch move without getting the urge to try and fix how they are standing to no end to try and make them look balanced. And I don't like overdone and value moderation.

But that is just my humble opinion. :wave:


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Since I have a Harborview puppy, that is at the top of my list. And I agree Kfayard ranks up there as well. I am also partial to Cobblestone Goldens. Tahnee is another one with great dogs.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

The answers are really going to vary greatly based on what you are looking for in a dog. The perfect breeder for one person wouldn't even be a consideration for someone else.

I flew from Louisiana to Connecticut to pick up my Sunfire puppy. And four years later I flew up to get a second one


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

As Jodie stated above it is really a matter of preference. There are MANY. MANY "top" breeders out there. Unless there is a particular line YOU are interested in I would look closer to home and find one of these breeders in your area. That will allow you a LOT of continued personal interaction with the breeder over the life of the pup. You can post here once you think you have found one to get opinions.
What ever you decide good luck in your search.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Delmarva Goldens. 

My goldens will come from Sue for as long as she breeds goldens.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Loisiana said:


> The answers are really going to vary greatly based on what you are looking for in a dog. The perfect breeder for one person wouldn't even be a consideration for someone else.
> 
> I flew from Louisiana to Connecticut to pick up my Sunfire puppy. And four years later I flew up to get a second one


This is a really good point. I really admire Sunfire dogs and *if* that were the kind of dog I were looking for, they'd be on my list as well. But I have different wants in a dog than Loisiana has. So excellent breeder does not necessarily = best dog to recommend for everyone.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

The way I looked at the prefect breeder.. I found the dog I most wanted in terms of my own requirements. In my case was a stud dog I was in love with.... watched his upcoming breedings and then made the final choice based off the breeder and the female.


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## Kylie (Feb 16, 2013)

I like Faera and Rush Hill because I love the dark gold in a conformation golden. Obviously that would not be the reason I went with a breeder though (although I have heard great things about them). But honestly I like rescues because I can afford them and I like knowing I saved a life.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Scion Goldens has a nice program: Scion Golden Retrievers - Texas Golden Retriever Breeder


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

I'd definitely look at Prism if distance were no issue! I also really like Gold'C'ker, in Alberta, Canada. I love breeders who are dedicated to putting titles on both sides of their dog's names. My ideal site/dam is an accomplished conformation dog who also excelled at obedience- and I want an older sire next time. I'm keeping my eye on 'Gold'C'ker's A Boat Turn'....

Gold'C'ker: (eastern Alberta)
http://goldcker.com/

Prism: (she's actually in Florida)
http://www.tennesseegoldens.com/


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I look at things a little different than some. To me a "top breeder" doesn't mean a breeder whose dogs are necessarily winning in whatever venue they compete in. They compete, sure, but winning is not the top priority. A top breeder to me is someone who agonizes over pedigrees. Puts health, temperament, longevity and structure as the priority rather than the ribbons. Stays away from pedigrees that will compound known health issues already in their line (since no pedigree is perfect!) and breeds for themselves but always keeps the puppy buyer in mind.....meaning, that in making their breeding decisions they think 5, 8, 10 years down the road and can feel good about the decision they made at the time even if something goes terribly wrong with one of the puppies. That is a "top breeder" to me.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

Dancer said:


> I'd definitely look at Prism if distance were no issue! I also really like Gold'C'ker, in Alberta, Canada. I love breeders who are dedicated to putting titles on both sides of their dog's names. My ideal site/dam is an accomplished conformation dog who also excelled at obedience- and I want an older sire next time. I'm keeping my eye on 'Gold'C'ker's A Boat Turn'....
> 
> Gold'C'ker: (eastern Alberta)
> Home
> ...


 I agree with you here!!! I'm a little bias as I have a Goldcker A Boat Turn boy in Lexx. It wouldn't take a lot of convincing to get me to take another Knot puppy!

I'm not sure whether or not another puppy is in our future but if one is, I will be watching for Goldcker or Riverdance (ie. Aero).


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I have my eye on Elysian/an Elysian bitch and a couple stud dogs. I don't have a dream breeder but I do have a dream litter or two in mind! ?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I have my eye on Elysian/an Elysian bitch and a couple stud dogs. I don't have a dream breeder but I do have a dream litter or two in mind! ?


That is the pinnacle program in my mind- the role model.


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## PrincessDaisy (Dec 20, 2011)

Elysian has some wonderful dogs on K9data, going back many years and many generations. Successful in many venues. But I can not find a web site or contact information.
Princess needs a prince consort. LOL

Max


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Ljilly28 said:


> That is the pinnacle program in my mind- the role model.



I'm very excited to be on a list a couple years out from now, but ultimately it depends on who the sire is. I would love to have a puppy that can do it all.. an MH prospect.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

That is the way to do it. For one of my dogs, I got on the list three years before- patience can be rewarded when you know exactly what you want. I sympathize with why they do not have a website. Even our litter is up to almost 200 applications for 6 puppies. It is very daunting. An Elysian dog would be truly a dream, and I cannot wait until you have one in your arms!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

As a couple of others have said, it depends on what you are looking for in a dog.
Some of the breeders mentioned are really big in "show goldens" but not much else. A couple are really big in "performance dogs", which may not have the temperament you are specifically looking for. There were a few mentioned who breed for the versatile, all around dog. If you're looking for a hunting companion, I would rule out a few of the breeders mentioned. And so on.
I think if you could share your goals and expectations for the puppy, people could probably narrow down the list a bit.


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## nenamala26 (Dec 22, 2013)

My top picks are Jill at PoeticGold and Marcy at Ruffwater Goldens. I value a breeder that is selective in whom they will breed with, has occasional litters, dogs live with them and are part of the family, participates in activities/venues such as conformation, obedience, dock diving and hiking, has all clearances, feeds a high quality dog food, follows limited vaccination protocol, spays/neuters when the pup reaches maturity, feels socialization is an integral part of their program and has an easy to talk to personality. 


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I haven't seen Summit mentioned. To me, Beth Johnson belongs in the discussion.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I have my eye on Elysian/an Elysian bitch and a couple stud dogs. I don't have a dream breeder but I do have a dream litter or two in mind! ?


Oh DUH! I forgot them.

@ the OP, are you asking this as a fun topic thread, or because you are looking for a puppy yourself? I assumed it was the first reason, but other people's post made me think I may have misunderstood.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

DanaRuns said:


> I haven't seen Summit mentioned. To me, Beth Johnson belongs in the discussion.


Summit was on my list, I just said I wasn't sure how often they breed.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Eowyn said:


> Oh DUH! I forgot them.
> 
> @ the OP, are you asking this as a fun topic thread, or because you are looking for a puppy yourself? I assumed it was the first reason, but other people's post made me think I may have misunderstood.


I think many of us turned it into a fun topic based on what WE would be looking for (with me it's titles on the parents and the knowledge that puppies from prior litters turned out so well and could basically do whatever the owners want). 

I think the OP was actually looking to get a puppy or young dog.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

sconner said:


> Forum Members:
> If distance were no object, which breeders would get your highest recommendation? Who are among the top breeders of quality Goldens in the country currently (2014)? We are willing to fly if necessary, but we live in central Virginia. Can forum members recommend reputable breeders near Virginia? Thanks in advance!


OP is looking for Breeder referrals in Virginia.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I am noticing members posting breeders that have been around for a while and/or strictly does show. Another thread should be why would you choose them?

There are many mentioned here... That breed to win. Are you picking solely on "pretty" puppies? (Not trying to derail thread, but was just curious) 

We all have our likes and dislikes, but some members are just naming well known kennels and was just wondering why? Did you see a particular puppy from that kennel? Have you met any of the dogs? The breeder? You like the health/longevity in the lines they are breeding? 

I might respect someone's breeding program, but that does not mean that I would buy a puppy from them. 

Just my 2 cents


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Choose pups from people who have worked within a line for many generations, or is hand's on mentored by someone like that. 
Having made every mistake in choosing puppies over the years and also choosing well at other times, I am still grateful for the learning experiences the journey provides. I once chose a working/performance kennel only on a grand reputation, and got burned; I twice chose a puppy by splashy pedigree and got burned in temperament and health. Live and learn. . . 

I agree with Kelli it is about more than pretty show dogs to recommend a breeder, and also add to resist social media hype on a dog or litter, and make sure you go meet the parents in real time.

There can be "buzz" created by social media, but before a pup comes to take up residence in your kitchen, it is good to really connect with the mom and dad dogs, or at least one, and make sure they fit your personal definition of good temperament. Temperament is an eye-of-the beholder issue/ dirty little secret issue, so when everything else looks great, still be sure to meet the dogs

In doing this, I have sometimes been struck by the difference between the way web site & facebook photos depict a kennel's day to day life, and the reality. Othertimes, I have found congruence, and the world of the social media is truly same as the way real life is lived. It pays to go for real and meet the dogs.

Do not put too much stock in bandwagons/groupies about a dog or breeder; do put stock in what dogs they have produced, the data you can research and verify, and how well those past/ present dogs click with/ fit your desires for your future pup over 12-15 years. .


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

I chose my Harborview puppy based on reputation of the breeder, having all four major clearances, and having health and longevity in the line and pedigree which is extremely important to me. It does not hurt that the dogs are gorgeous and I am more into the conformation look. 

I took this thread as a person looking for a pup but also wanting to know who we would personally pick for a breeder for ourselves. I think a lot of people thought this way. 

The poster has not returned - so, I guess we really don't know..... but if anything, it gives the poster a lot of names of breeders to check into for their potential pup in the future.


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## sconner (Apr 17, 2014)

*Please start a new thread*

"Another thread should be why would you choose them?"

That would be a very helpful thread to prospective buyers. Will you please start it?

Thanks, Sue


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Personally, I like breeders who have been around a while and who have a proven record of _consistency._ Yes, I do choose for beautiful and correct dogs. But more and more, I am focusing on longevity and cause of death -- which is not easy to determine, sometimes. I am appalled that 60% of Goldens get cancer. That's outrageous, and for me, any breeder who ignores this and doesn't do what s/he can to change that statistic should not be breeding Golden Retrievers. The breeders who breed into cancer and just shrug their shoulders about it or dismiss the issue by saying, "oh, it's in all the lines, and it's unpredictable, and we can't avoid it" should be denied the privilege of ever breeding another dog, no matter how famous they are or how much their dogs win.

I was offered show picks from two such breeders. I turned them down. Doubtless those puppies will grow up to be spectacular, but they are not for me. I'd rather risk a hip or elbow clearance than a high probability of cancer. There was one prominent breeder who told me straight out, "If you buy this puppy, understand that he will die from hemangiosarcoma." I really appreciated the honesty and candor, and respect that breeder for it, but I did not take that puppy.

This post is not to invite a debate on cancer. I'm just responding to the question.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I just don't want someone to see this thread and think these are the best breeders. There were some mentioned here that IMO do not breed for health. Just concerning. So, just because a breeder is well known and shows their dogs, does not mean they are the "best or great" breeders.

I would hope everyone researches the pedigree of the parents before deciding on a puppy.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Uh oh. I think (I hope!) nobody would mention breeders that aren't concerned with health intentionally. But we all have different levels of knowledge about these things and of course some of you all are way more in the know than others of us. The few I mentioned were based on the fact that they *seem* to have good longevity, they focus on multipurpose dogs that are successful in various venues, and I like the looks of them as well. And I hope anyone that would see any of these names and seek out a puppy from one of them would do their due diligence in researching pedigrees and breeding programs to make sure they're supporting the kind of program they intend to. 

It would be nice if those of you with greater knowledge could point out the breeders that were mentioned that don't focus on health, but I guess that would be opening up a can of worms nobody wants to mess with.


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

CharlieBear80 said:


> It would be nice if those of you with greater knowledge could point out the breeders that were mentioned that don't focus on health, but I guess that would be opening up a can of worms nobody wants to mess with.


Yes, that would be a huge can of worms opened up.

Those who are researching breeders have to understand, because breeder A does it differently than breeder B does not mean either way is right or wrong. What is a focus on health for one person, could look like a focus on wins to another.

I know when I discuss health/structure/breeding I am very very candid, which can come across as being flippant. I try to be as realistic as possible, and present likely scenarios, trying to not let emotion jade the conversation. I know if I have a litter of 10 not all of them will reach teenage years, some will and some will pass in the single digit range, I feel it is important to have people who come to me for a puppy understand that. The same research, thought, care, etc. has gone into each and every puppy. I can guarantee I have weighed the pro's and con's of each breeding throughly, I can guarantee I have tried my best to stack the odds in favour of a long healthy life, however I can not guarantee which genes make up each puppy and I can not guarantee any environmental triggers the dog may be exposed to over their lifetime. That said, anyone could look at any pedigree and say 'well what did they expect, they have Ch So-and-so in the 5th generation'. 

Don't get me wrong, there are undesirable breeders out there, but I truly believe the number of breeders, who are active in an aspect of the sport (hunting, conformation, obedience etc.), whom do not take health into account is relatively small.

Cheers
Rob


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

sconner said:


> Forum Members:
> If distance were no object, which breeders would get your highest recommendation? Who are among the top breeders of quality Goldens in the country currently (2014)? We are willing to fly if necessary, but we live in central Virginia. Can forum members recommend reputable breeders near Virginia? Thanks in advance!


Welcome to the Forum!

What are you looking for in a puppy? Do you want a dog to hunt with you? Run with you? Be laid back and sleep on the couch? Compete in agility or conformation? Be a therapy dog? The more you can tell us about what you want, the better our members will do at helping you find the right breeder for you. Breeders are likely to ask these questions so they can help you find the right puppy, too.

For example, I am very fond of Lycinan (in Maryland northwest of Baltimore), but you have to be able to handle the high intelligence and energy of these dogs, or look for one of their calmer litters (they do have some).

Good luck and please keep us posted.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

DanaRuns said:


> . . . The breeders who breed into cancer and just shrug their shoulders about it or dismiss the issue by saying, "oh, it's in all the lines, and it's unpredictable, and we can't avoid it" should be denied the privilege of ever breeding another dog, no matter how famous they are or how much their dogs win.
> 
> I was offered show picks from two such breeders. I turned them down. Doubtless those puppies will grow up to be spectacular, but they are not for me. I'd rather risk a hip or elbow clearance than a high probability of cancer. *There was one prominent breeder who told me straight out, "If you buy this puppy, understand that he will die from hemangiosarcoma." *I really appreciated the honesty and candor, and respect that breeder for it, but I did not take that puppy.


I'm thinking there must be some context for this comment that's missing here. I can't imagine any "prominent breeder" (I'm thinking some one who's at least bred quite a few successful litters) making a certain statement about the future COD for one of their puppies. Without getting into a discussion about cancer in the breed, I'd say the 60% figure gets quoted all the time but includes tragic deaths of very young dogs as well as deaths of older dogs into their teens and doesn't distinguish among them.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

TheZ's said:


> I'd say the 60% figure gets quoted all the time but includes tragic deaths of very young dogs as well as deaths of older dogs into their teens and doesn't distinguish among them.


It does. I believe the statistics for the remaining 40% only live 1 year longer on average.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

There are other things besides cancer to be concerned about with this breed. There are (other) health problems.... and there is also basic care things (dogs bred to have too much coat, for example). I'm not going to point fingers, but at least 2 of the breeders mentioned already were breeders I would not want to specifically buy a puppy from based on the ones I see who have too much coat for it to practical for a dog who is going to be a family pet and going through the bushes with me. 

Trainability is another thing to be concerned about - matters if you want a dog to do stuff with. 

I was talking with another golden person at a fun match today.... she used to own and compete with Samoyeds and switched to goldens because she wanted an obedience dog. <- This was something that she and I chuckled about with me pointing a finger at Bertie (conformation bred). It's not true that any golden will automatically be an obedience dog. The ones that are bred to be all around dogs and there is a track record as well with puppies from prior litters getting early obedience titles, etc.... those have it in their breeding. Others may really be bred for looks and personality, but not working. Lilies of the field they are.  

The thing that she described with her Samoyed where she would ask them to do something 3 times, and after the second time they were bored and done already. I thought about Bertie when she said that. LOL. It's not so big a deal to me because while I'm ambitious, I'm also pretty laidback and patient about training. If somebody were very ambitious though - they would be better off getting a puppy with obedience titles loaded up behind the litter.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

TheZ's said:


> I'm thinking there must be some context for this comment that's missing here. I can't imagine any "prominent breeder" (I'm thinking some one who's at least bred quite a few successful litters) making a certain statement about the future COD for one of their puppies.


Really? You need to up your imagination then. 

Nope, no additional context, except that my partner and I were at her house, looking at her dogs and talking about getting a puppy from her. She has been around for a long time, has bred lots of champion, GCH and some Top 20 GRs, including one boy who was a _very_ popular sire, and she very casually and candidly told us that her dogs die from hemangio, and that this puppy would, too. She was being up front, and honest, and volunteering important information. And I respect it.

What are you having trouble understanding? That a breeder would be that candid about what her dogs die of? Or that she would know what they die of? Or what?


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

DanaRuns said:


> This post is not to invite a debate on cancer. I'm just responding to the question.


In this thread, or period? Because you post left me with several questions that I wouldn't mind having a _discussion_ on. I don't want to put you in an awkward situation though where you are not wanting to discuss/answer any questions so as to not stir up dissension. I want no dissension myself.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

I'll let my comment stand. I don't think it needs a lot of further explanation.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Megora said:


> There are other things besides cancer to be concerned about with this breed. There are (other) health problems.... and there is also basic care things (dogs bred to have too much coat, for example). I'm not going to point fingers, but at least 2 of the breeders mentioned already were breeders I would not want to specifically buy a puppy from based on the ones I see who have too much coat for it to practical for a dog who is going to be a family pet and going through the bushes with me.


Agreed - but I think the average puppy buyer would have no way of knowing to ask or how to assess something like excess coat. I'm surprised enough when people know to ask about longevity and energy levels, KWIM?


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Eowyn said:


> In this thread, or period? Because you post left me with several questions that I wouldn't mind having a _discussion_ on. I don't want to put you in an awkward situation though where you are not wanting to discuss/answer any questions so as to not stir up dissension. I want no dissension myself.


I'd love to talk all about cancer, I just don't want to derail the OP's thread.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

CharlieBear80 said:


> Agreed - but I think the average puppy buyer would have no way of knowing to ask or how to assess something like excess coat. I'm surprised enough when people know to ask about longevity and energy levels, KWIM?


That's the reason why it's a good idea for them to talk to somebody at the local breed club referral. I would hope the referrals would ask the right questions.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Megora said:


> That's the reason why it's a good idea for them to talk to somebody at the local breed club referral. I would hope the referrals would ask the right questions.


Do you mean that you hope the breeders that the GR club might recommend would ask the right questions once contacted or that the actual GR club would ask the questions?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I dont think eye-of-the-beholder issues like coat rule a breeder off a list of other people's dream breeders or warrant finger-pointing kicking them off someone else's dream breeder list, lol. Just don't buy one yourself. 

A few breeders mentioned here as other people's dream breeders have dogs I wouldnt buy/consider myself, bc they call their pups "moderate" as code for plain/lackluster breed type/lacking breed type/ lacking in substance, and take an eternity to finish bc of that. That is a big pet peeve I have in general. Other breeders mentioned work with a style I don't care for but have still good type. However, that does not mean they can't be on other people's dream breeder list- there is nothing wrong with the dogs for other people- just for me.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

This is why I said earlier that we all have different likes and dislikes. I can't fault a potential puppy buyer for wanting "pretty." I just would hope that they want health before pretty.

Health should be of the utmost concern. That is why I made the comment. It scared me to see forum members listing their dream breeders and wondering why in the world they would go there or to that particular one.

The main thing is people need to research clearances etc before buying a puppy.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

CharlieBear80 said:


> Do you mean that you hope the breeders that the GR club might recommend would ask the right questions once contacted or that the actual GR club would ask the questions?


Both. 

The referral shouldn't be wasting a puppy owner's time sending them to breeders who would have specific type homes in mind for their puppies, or who would not sell to a family with young children (for example). 

The breeders should ask questions and interview as well.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Megora said:


> Both.
> 
> The referral shouldn't be wasting a puppy owner's time sending them to breeders who would have specific type homes in mind for their puppies, or who would not sell to a family with young children (for example).
> 
> The breeders should ask questions and interview as well.



It isn't the puppy referral person's job to screen applicants. It is their job to refer litters that meet the club/GRCA code of ethics. They don't know if a club member will/will not sell to a home with young kids, nor do they know if "this" home would be an exception to the rule. The puppy referral person can't possibly be expected to do such mind-reading.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

CarolinaCasey said:


> It isn't the puppy referral person's job to screen applicants. It is their job to refer litters that meet the club/GRCA code of ethics. They don't know if a club member will/will not sell to a home with young kids, nor do they know if "this" home would be an exception to the rule. The puppy referral person can't possibly be expected to do such mind-reading.



And in some GR clubs the breeder referral person has no (none, nada, zilch) actual contact with prospective puppy buyers. They just forward a list of breeders on the club's list. This avoids anyone feeling like potential buyers are being pointed to some breeders and away from others due to the referral person's own personal preferences.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Also some clubs have a "breeder" referral system as opposed to a "puppy" referral system.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

CarolinaCasey said:


> It isn't the puppy referral person's job to screen applicants. It is their job to refer litters that meet the club/GRCA code of ethics. They don't know if a club member will/will not sell to a home with young kids, nor do they know if "this" home would be an exception to the rule. The puppy referral person can't possibly be expected to do such mind-reading.


Even asking simple questions like - 

1. What are you looking for in a puppy? 

LOL. My head is rolling around right now because I always thought that a breeder referral did a lot more work than they actually apparently do as far as talking to puppy people and helping them. That was my experience those times I contacted the local referral. Now I'm wondering if I got more information because I asked all kinds of questions and volunteered all kinds of information.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> I dont think eye-of-the-beholder issues like coat rule a breeder off a list of other people's dream breeders or warrant finger-pointing kicking them off someone else's dream breeder list, lol. Just don't buy one yourself.
> 
> A few breeders mentioned here as other people's dream breeders have dogs I wouldnt buy/consider myself, bc they call their pups "moderate" as code for plain/lackluster breed type/lacking breed type/ lacking in substance, and take an eternity to finish bc of that. That is a big pet peeve I have in general. Other breeders mentioned work with a style I don't care for but have still good type. However, that does not mean they can't be on other people's dream breeder list- there is nothing wrong with the dogs for other people- just for me.



As a person who considers her CH boy moderate, with tons of breed type and plenty of substance, I think you're painting a slanted picture. Gibbs took a bit to finish but I owner handled him the whole way. I put every win on him. This means much more IMO than a handler finishing a dog in short order. Much of the time I showed him as a puppy was for me to learn. He had the deficit of a green owner on his lead in the beginning. Is he any less of a dog because it took ME longer to finish him? No. 

In the same token, there are plenty of breeders who use the word "moderate" and what they are truly describing is an overdone dog. Handlers finishing Newfie-like dogs in short order because they are flashy. I think that is a pet peeve of my own. Perhaps people have lost sight of what "moderate" truly means.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> I dont think eye-of-the-beholder issues like coat rule a breeder off a list of other people's dream breeders or warrant finger-pointing kicking them off someone else's dream breeder list, lol. Just don't buy one yourself.
> 
> A few breeders mentioned here as other people's dream breeders have dogs I wouldnt buy/consider myself, bc they call their pups "moderate" as code for plain/lackluster breed type/lacking breed type/ lacking in substance, and take an eternity to finish bc of that. That is a big pet peeve I have in general. Other breeders mentioned work with a style I don't care for but have still good type. However, that does not mean they can't be on other people's dream breeder list- there is nothing wrong with the dogs for other people- just for me.


See I am really going to have to disagree here on the term "moderate." Moderate to me, means not excessive! It does not mean "plain/lackluster breed type/lacking breed type/lacking in substance/ and take an eternity to finish"

Wow! I am really hoping I am reading this wrong! So you think the only ones that finish quickly are the heavy boned dogs?? Is that what the breed calls for?

My cannon is very "moderate" he finished in 7 weekends with 3 majors before the age of 2. I find the comment on moderate very disturbing. I would much rather see him hunting than an over done dog.

Some people try to finish their own "moderate" dogs and might take longer than sending out with a pro. I do not find Anything wrong with that.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't think it was intended this way, but it did come off as a slap in the face to people here on this forum who have described their CH dogs as moderate time and again. That was my first thought..... 

There is a show breeder thankfully not mentioned here, but who gets a very bad rap for breeding dogs that have very high COI (like over 30), whose dogs have too much coat and are borderline coarse when it comes to their bone and heads and whatnot. <- This person would never be described as breeding "moderate" dogs... I would never want to buy a puppy from them though. It makes me nervous enough looking through Bertie's pedigree and spotting dogs from that breeder in there.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> I dont think eye-of-the-beholder issues like coat rule a breeder off a list of other people's dream breeders or warrant finger-pointing kicking them off someone else's dream breeder list, lol. Just don't buy one yourself.
> 
> A few breeders mentioned here as other people's dream breeders have dogs I wouldnt buy/consider myself, bc they call their pups "moderate" as code for plain/lackluster breed type/lacking breed type/ lacking in substance, and take an eternity to finish bc of that. That is a big pet peeve I have in general. Other breeders mentioned work with a style I don't care for but have still good type. However, that does not mean they can't be on other people's dream breeder list- there is nothing wrong with the dogs for other people- just for me.


Whatever Jill. This is the sort of comment you should think twice before hitting "post." Believe it or not nowhere in our breed standard does it mention pretty, plush, substantial. I could say the fact that these "moderate" dogs you don't like, win under breeder judges, maybe should tell you something about the plush puppy show dogs who don't. And that their OWNERS are showing them makes a big difference and MEANS A LOT MORE. Calling out other people's dogs invites nothing but argument. If you handled your own dogs in the ring maybe I would feel you had more room to talk.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I, too, have a moderate dog. Considering he finished quickly with 3 majors, 2 of them 4 pointers, it would be hard to stretch that to "takes an eternity to finish because of that". Although he finished quickly, he would have finished faster had we not also been seeking our UDX at the same time, which limited our breed showing. And although I did use a handler, it was always ring-side handoffs, I never sent him out. 

from dictionary. com

moderate: kept or keeping within reasonable or proper limits; not extreme, excessive, or intense.

We each have a pet peeve. I've mentioned mine many times, and don't really need to keep re-hashing it.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

Keeping in mind I know nothing about the breed ring, does a dog that is substantial at less than a year, and has the bone and coat of an adult dog become overdone when it matures? Or do these dogs really attain adult size as pups? Mine looked like a spider a that age, all legs and no coat. Some would say she is still leggy and has no coat  but she is definitely a lot more dog than she was at ayear.

It is interesting to me that the field community took note of the Westminster winner this year and gave him high accolades because they saw him as a moderate dog. This was seen as a positive trend.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Some do, some don't. Some just mature faster, while others look coarse and overdone by the time they turn 2. Seems to just depend on the dog.
At least in this area, the trend is back to moderate dogs. It is wonderful to see!!




TrailDogs said:


> Keeping in mind I know nothing about the breed ring, does a dog that is substantial at less than a year, and has the bone and coat of an adult dog become overdone when it matures? Or do these dogs really attain adult size as pups? Mine looked like a spider a that age, all legs and no coat. Some would say she is still leggy and has no coat  but she is definitely a lot more dog than she was at ayear.
> 
> It is interesting to me that the field community took note of the Westminster winner this year and gave him high accolades because they saw him as a moderate dog. This was seen as a positive trend.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

hotel4dogs said:


> Some do, some don't. Some just mature faster, while others look coarse and overdone by the time they turn 2. Seems to just depend on the dog.
> At least in this area, the trend is back to moderate dogs. It is wonderful to see!!


I was about to post pretty much the same thing when I saw Barbs post.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Anney, that was ANOTHER personal attack (yawn), so quit it. I never mentioned your dog, or thought about your dog. I have never even seen any of your dogs. I didnt call out anyone's personal dog here anymore than Megora did by complaining breeder on people dream list bred for too much coat. The only specific calling out was k9design, who has a special thing about going after me personally which is weird -stalkerish. Try that ignore button.

I didnt write clearly though. We do want a truly moderate dog, all of us. However, when it is a word that gets plastered unfairly on lackluster dogs it takes away from nice dogs who are moderate. 


My main point was that "moderate" and "too much coat" are open to interpretation.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

CarolinaCasey said:


> As a person who considers her CH boy moderate, with tons of breed type and plenty of substance, I think you're painting a slanted picture. Gibbs took a bit to finish but I owner handled him the whole way. I put every win on him. This means much more IMO than a handler finishing a dog in short order. Much of the time I showed him as a puppy was for me to learn. He had the deficit of a green owner on his lead in the beginning. Is he any less of a dog because it took ME longer to finish him? No.
> 
> In the same token, there are plenty of breeders who use the word "moderate" and what they are truly describing is an overdone dog. Handlers finishing Newfie-like dogs in short order because they are flashy. I think that is a pet peeve of my own. Perhaps people have lost sight of what "moderate" truly means.


I consider Gibbs a moderate dog, and beautiful. He TRULY is moderate, and moderate is a good word. I am proud of my two dogs who are more moderate, and have an overdone dog as well. There was a thread a while back in which Hotel4dogs agreed with me that often people with plain or lackluster dogs will jump on the term moderate unfarly. 

People with dogs who lack breed type often claim they are just too "moderate" rather than saying they lack breed type.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

too much of a duplicate


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

K9-Design said:


> Whatever Jill. This is the sort of comment you should think twice before hitting "post." Believe it or not nowhere in our breed standard does it mention pretty, plush, substantial. I could say the fact that these "moderate" dogs you don't like, win under breeder judges, maybe should tell you something about the plush puppy show dogs who don't. And that their OWNERS are showing them makes a big difference and MEANS A LOT MORE. Calling out other people's dogs invites nothing but argument. If you handled your own dogs in the ring maybe I would feel you had more room to talk.


I don't think Jill was taking a shot at you. She wasn't calling out your dogs or anyone's as far as I can tell. She seemed to just be making a generic comment; the subject of which has been discussed around here a lot. I have a moderate dog and I took no offense...because I know my dog drips type and he's well put-together, so why would her comment bother me?

As for the owner-handled dog . . . meh. I think it means zero more to finish a dog owner-handled if you are experienced in the ring. After all, it's the dog that is supposed to be judged not the owner, and many owner-handlers have far more ring experience than some of the pro handlers our there, and are far better known. I will tell you with 100% confidence that when Tonya Struble takes a dog into the ring, she has an advantage over every pro handler she competes against. And, you know, that "moderate" dog being owner-handled that is put up by a breeder judge just _might_ be getting the nod due not to the superiority of the dog, but because some breeder judges like to recognize breeder/owner handled dogs. 

Of course, if this is your first dog you've finished, it is a big deal and you have something to really be proud of. But I certainly don't think it's any big accomplishment to finish your own dog if you've been in the ring for a few years and have already done it a couple of times. And, frankly, when you have a halfway smart dog who is well-trained and knows what to do, you can almost just follow him/her around, and if s/he's a good dog it will win often enough to finish. Maybe not as quickly as if you were very skilled, but enough judges will find your dog if it has merit.

I'm sure that just outraged breeder-handlers who think they are performing miracles by finishing their dogs when pro handlers are in the ring with them. But for all the politics, there's a judge for every dog and handler out there.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

This thread is fascinating to a person who started her interest in Goldens through obedience ...


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

For the OP- this is where I would go in Virginia for the dog you describe:

Sunkota
Cathy Story
Fairfax Station, VA USA 22039 
[email protected]
www.sunkota.com/sunkota_goldens.htm


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Megora said:


> I don't think it was intended this way, but it did come off as a slap in the face to people here on this forum who have described their CH dogs as moderate time and again. That was my first thought.....
> 
> There is a show breeder thankfully not mentioned here, but who gets a very bad rap for breeding dogs that have very high COI (like over 30), whose dogs have too much coat and are borderline coarse when it comes to their bone and heads and whatnot. <- This person would never be described as breeding "moderate" dogs... I would never want to buy a puppy from them though. It makes me nervous enough looking through Bertie's pedigree and spotting dogs from that breeder in there.


She does feel she breeds a nice moderate dog.  She is often rewarded by breeder judges, and her dogs have been big parts of other breeding programs and influential. This is the point I was trying to make but did so badly- one persons dream breeder is another person's run away.


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## sconner (Apr 17, 2014)

I love all the comments on this thread. Please keep posting about breeders and why you chose them. In terms of what Bill and I want in a Golden--since we are near retirement age, we are looking for a beautiful, sweet, calm, happy home companion to bring joy and laughter to our "Golden" years. Health and longevity are very important to us because losing our Golden was so heartbreaking and because our other Golden has uveitis. Thanks for suggesting breeders who might be a good match for us. We live in central Virginia and have no young children in our home. 

Sue and Bill

Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot Goldens!


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## Kylie (Feb 16, 2013)

Jill
But you said breeders listed, there really were not that many listed and all of them were someone's favorite breeders. So was it really worth it to risk hurting someone's feelings? Clearly the person who listed them loves their dogs, and may even own one, so why tear them down? Because the way I see it, all you managed to do was rip a 16 year old girl to shreds and offends several others. Please think about the way things will come across to others next time.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I dont really see any difference between someone saying they felt breeders on the list didnt care about health, someone else saying breeders on the list produced dogs with too much coat, and me saying a few breeders on the list had dogs I didnt like bc they were lackluster. I do apologize though as hurting someone's feeling was not my intent, and I never want to do that. I should have written more carefully to make it clear that moderation is a quality we should all hold on high, but we should not call dogs lacking in something "moderate" to cover it up. I do think if a general comment by a total stranger on the internet is that upsetting, there are other issues.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> She does feel she breeds a nice moderate dog.  She is often rewarded by breeder judges, and her dogs have been big parts of other breeding programs and influential. This is the point I was trying to make but did so badly- one persons dream breeder is another person's run away.


Not sure who you are talking about.... I'm sure there is more than one breeder out there who is breeding with dogs whose COI (both 10 and 12 gen) are over 30. 

The one I'm thinking of... I would not EVER buy a puppy from her based on the murmurs I hear about young cancer and other health issues like dysplasia, etc. When somebody sacrifices on health by breeding so close to get bigger and better show dogs, I don't think I'd really want to buy a puppy from them. 

Again, this breeder's name was not mentioned on this thread - I was not alluding to anyone mentioned here. 



> As for the owner-handled dog . . . meh. I think it means zero more to finish a dog owner-handled if you are experienced in the ring.


 I think you can take full credit for a dog's CH, if you handled the dog yourself. That's about what it comes down to. Otherwise, you paid somebody to finish the dog for you and they are the ones who deserve credit for showing and finishing the dog.

And frankly speaking, if it were that easy to owner handle your dog to a CH - I think more people would be handling their own dogs as opposed to paying somebody.


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

Megora said:


> I think you can take full credit for a dog's CH, if you handled the dog yourself. That's about what it comes down to. Otherwise, you paid somebody to finish the dog for you and they are the ones who deserve credit for showing and finishing the dog.



Somewhere in there the dog should get some credit too ;-)


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Conquerergold said:


> Somewhere in there the dog should get some credit too ;-)


 Yeah, this.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Conquerergold said:


> Somewhere in there the dog should get some credit too ;-)


Rob - I've shown my dog a couple times and will be going out there much more as I learn the ropes. 

All through that, I'm seeing a lot of nice dogs out there. 

A friend of mine who shows boxers mentioned that she was out there in the ring with a really contemplative deliberating judge who just kept walking up and down looking at all the dogs. He pulled her and another boxer out and continued to deliberate between them.

The other boxer was a much nicer dog... BUT... could not hold her stand long enough and the handler messed up there... and my friend got the win as the result. 

It's things like that which probably have me respect professional handlers so much more.... least of all, knowing that Bertie's one brother when I saw him in classes being handled by his owner. Was a CRAZY boy. Completely different dog in the ring with the professional handler working with him. And he's been doing well - unless I'm wrong here, he's already gotten like 3 majors? He's doing great. And you know the handler is on a really hot streak as well, his other dogs are all doing well.  There's really a sense that I get going out there that - with all of the dogs looking good out there, you can't really make a mistake in handling. And basically the more experience these people have out there, the fewer mistakes they are making. 

That's a pretty tough thing to go against as somebody who is really new to handling and with their first dog. But it's nice and exciting knowing that it's not impossible.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I dont think it matters if the Dream Breeder shows his or her own dogs or not. The Dream Breeder may have a physical disability, may be turning 76, may work 80 hour weeks to keep things running. The dog is the dog is the dog, with its merits and faults.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

DanaRuns said:


> I will tell you with 100% confidence that when Tonya Struble takes a dog into the ring, she has an advantage over every pro handler she competes against.
> 
> I'm sure that just outraged breeder-handlers who think they are performing miracles by finishing their dogs when pro handlers are in the ring with them. But for all the politics, there's a judge for every dog and handler out there.


Tonya is a pro, she is a breeder but also a pro handler. We have quite a few in the breed. 

I do think I am performing miracles out there. I have not finished a dog yet, but every point I have won was amazing because it was me and my girl as a team against more knowledge, more experience and god knows more money. I don't think finishing several dogs would ever dull the feeling of elation the comes from a win you earn for yourself by yourself. 

I get why people need, want and use handlers. There are very nice dogs that finish with handlers. There are also mediocre dogs that finish with handlers. Some years competition is harder that others. Not every dog who has a CH title should have it and dogs that deserve them may never get their shot. 

I do agree there is a judge for every dog. Not everyone has the money, time or desire to hunt them down as a amateur owner handler.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I didn't get the feeling anyone was commenting on whether the breeders show their own dogs or not. It was more about the comment regarding dogs taking a long time to finish. I have a lot of respect for owner handlers. You have to do everything as well as someone who shows dogs for a living! My goal is to finish a dog myself one of these days. I think it is a huge huge deal and all owner handlers who have even pointed their own dog should be very proud. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I didn't get the feeling anyone was commenting on whether the breeders show their own dogs or not. It was more about the comment regarding dogs taking a long time to finish. I have a lot of respect for owner handlers. You have to do everything as well as someone who shows dogs for a living! My goal is to finish a dog myself one of these days. I think it is a huge huge deal and all owner handlers who have even pointed their own dog should be very proud.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I was trying to link it back to the OP so it was relevant. 


There are so many different ways to do things and see things, and there is no need to try to have one way be the best way. No one opinion will ever hold sway anyway.

I happen to agree with Rob/ConquererGold- who handles the dog is way secondary to the dog himself. 

Being an owner-handler is great if that's your passion; breeding wonderful dogs, and having a relationship with a professional handler is great. I think people will be biased toward what they themselves do as that is is human nature. I dont think if someone has a physical disability and uses a handler that their dog's CH means less to their breeding program if it is an outstanding dog.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I agree. Everything must be taken in context though. Certainly not something that is easy it see sometimes with in the sport and nearly impossible outside, is the overall quality of the competition. Some regions and/or time periods just contain a higher level of quality dogs all competing for the same time for a finite number of show wins. A dog could finish quickly in lower quality competition and struggle for months in a quality "hot bed". The context of the wins matter too and is so much more difficult to understand.


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

Megora said:


> A friend of mine who shows boxers mentioned that she was out there in the ring with a really contemplative deliberating judge who just kept walking up and down looking at all the dogs. He pulled her and another boxer out and continued to deliberate between them.
> 
> The other boxer was a much nicer dog... BUT... could not hold her stand long enough and the handler messed up there... and my friend got the win as the result.


To me, reading this experience, I would have to think there was actually something this judge liked about both specimens to have such a hard time deciding who would get the winners ribbon. While one dog may have looked the better dog outside of the ring, the person whose opinion is being sought may have thought differently. If indeed this judge was judging only on how long a dog can hold a stack, not sure it's a judge I would seek out again.

I use a handler, I am not good at showing a dog in conformation (I'm the type that can't hide the undesirable, or accentuate the desirable...if a dog has a dip in their topline I may as well hold a flashing arrow to it so the judge is sure to not miss it), I don't enjoy it. I do enjoy all the work leading up to ring time, thus I hand the lead off to my handler. I have another person that shows my dogs in addition to my regular handler, this person co-owns my dogs, she is not a handler (and doesn't even live in the same country as I do). We have had big wins with both (multi BOB & Group placements with my handler, and multi BOB/Selects, RWB at the National, BOSS, 5point Winners etc. co-owner handled).

Match a good dog with a handler (either professional or amature) who can bring out the best in the dog, and more often than not it is equal footing. A handler is part of the team, which should always include a good dog.

Just my thoughts of course, others may not see it the same.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Conquerergold said:


> To me, reading this experience, I would have to think there was actually something this judge liked about both specimens to have such a hard time deciding who would get the winners ribbon. While one dog may have looked the better dog outside of the ring, the person whose opinion is being sought may have thought differently. If indeed this judge was judging only on how long a dog can hold a stack, not sure it's a judge I would seek out again.....


Unless you were the owner of the winning dog. 

The handling classes I'm taking - the guy teaching them is a handler and judge and really puts an emphasis on getting those dogs stacked and looking nice before the judge does his walk around... and get them to hold the stack and look their best until it's all over. You do have judges like that one who may not have made up their mind yet... who knows. 

The dog who lost in that situation was a 9 month old who lost to a 12 month old. The 9 month old was flashier. The 12 month old dog had more show experience, and he was owned and handled by somebody who has gone all over with her boxers. She knows her stuff and she definitely took advantage of that situation.

With goldens... my one breeder shared a story where he was out in the ring and drew the judge's attention very subtly to the topline of his dog and without saying anything or pointing fingers, basically tattled on another handler who had a dog who had an incorrect topline which otherwise was hidden by grooming. The judge had been about to pick the other dog, but basically didn't after going back and feeling the back. 

Again, I think generally speaking - all these dogs are really nice. I probably have only seen a few classes where there was an obvious advantage for one dog over another. And Rob, what you said regarding why you do not handle your own dogs yourself - it gives extra kudos to those people who do, especially those people who are true newbies out there with their first show goldens.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Wow... Well we all know the show ring can be political. I just do not think that a dog should be looked down upon because it took longer to finish owner-handled. I also don't think owner-handling is "Meh." Lol

Both of my dogs were finished by a pro, but I got their first few points on them myself. I teach and I just do not have the luxury of taking off and traveling to shows. When I get more time, I will probably show my dogs and not send them off.

I don't look down either path... But I don't look at the quality of dog by how fast they finished!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

On the original subject - sorry to the OP.  

I do suggest you talk to the breed referral in your area and hopefully that's somebody you can talk to and get an idea of which breeders have puppies that'd be best for you. There are a LOT of breeders in your area who are very nice. 

I do think it's always important to have a good idea of what you want in a puppy. Really give a lot of thought to your lifestyle. 

With me, when I sat down to talk to Bertie's breeder - I was concerned about coat. His pedigree has a lot of dogs from one of those breeders I alluded to who generally produce dogs with way too much coat. REALLY fwoofy goldens. 

This was a big deal for me, because I go hiking with my dogs and expected to have a field and pond dog pretty much. And at the time too, I did not have a dryer nor wanted to NEED one. 

Most golden owners should not NEED to have a dryer to keep their dogs coats and skin healthy. My personal quibble is with breeders who may say they plan to place their puppies in pet homes primarily with only 1-2 picks for show per litter, but do not in fact breed dogs that'd make sense in most pet homes. 

And health is its own bag of stuff to hash out. 

Just be ready to have this conversation with those breeders you are put in contact with. As several people on this thread pointed out. Everyone has a wish list, but it's not always going to be practical for everyone across the board.


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

Megora said:


> And Rob, what you said regarding why you do not handle your own dogs yourself - it gives extra kudos to those people who do, especially those people who are true newbies out there with their first show goldens.


Of course!! I wish I could do it myself, I can't and I am ok in admitting it 

Just to be clear, I am not saying anything negative about pros or amateurs. They both have to learn and perfect the craft as they go, not something that can be done overnight and not something all can do (pointing the finger at myself). 

I have helped many a newcomer learn some of the showing ropes (I may not be able to do it myself, but I can see where some things need to be tweaked etc.). 

I just don't like to see the dog get lost in the equation


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Ok let's be honest here. We all know that pros typically win more than your average owner handler. They just do. And I'm not talking about "pro breeder owner handlers" who certainly exist, I'm talking your typical owner handler. In california it is uncommon to see an owner handler win. It happens, sure, but most of the time the points go to the pro. Full disclosure, I use a pro for my dogs at the moment and have Smooch out showing now. She has picked up 8 points in just over a month. Do I think I could have done that? No way. Will she finish quicker with our handler than she would have with me showing her? Absolutely. That's why I hired them. Does that make her a better dog than she would have been if it had taken me 2 years to finish her as an owner handler? Nope. The point was that the time it takes to finish is not necessarily indicative of the quality of the dog. Smooch is a very nice bitch and has done quite well in the ring, but if I had chosen to show her myself and taken an eternity to finish her it wouldn't make her less than a bitch finished quickly by a pro. 


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Maybe we can swing this thread back to helping the OP?




sconner said:


> I love all the comments on this thread. Please keep posting about breeders and why you chose them. In terms of what Bill and I want in a Golden--since we are near retirement age, we are looking for a beautiful, sweet, calm, happy home companion to bring joy and laughter to our "Golden" years. Health and longevity are very important to us because losing our Golden was so heartbreaking and because our other Golden has uveitis. Thanks for suggesting breeders who might be a good match for us. We live in central Virginia and have no young children in our home.
> 
> Sue and Bill
> 
> Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot Goldens!


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

hotel4dogs said:


> Maybe we can swing this thread back to helping the OP?


 Jill mentioned Sunkota. One of my favorite Goldens was from a Sunkota sire, this guy:

Pedigree: Am. CH Sunkota's Phorgone Conclusion OS

(And just for the record, since there has been a lot of talk about showing, this favorite Golden of mine was not a show dog at all, but he was a therapy dog, had multiple agility titles, was used in ads for pet products, and was a much-loved member of his family.)

I actually looked into a litter from a Sunkota sire for myself back in the fall (would have been out of Briarwood Farms on account of the dam) but would have been so far down the list for a puppy that I didn't want to chance it. So I guess what I'm saying is I'd second Sunkota as a suggestion for the OP.


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## dborgers (Dec 7, 2011)

Since someone mentioned this, I was hoping to find the video of Kristin Sipus 6-7 week old puppies swimming. Figured it would be adorable. It is!! It is!! 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152443157565572&set=vb.719125571&type=2&theater


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Ok let's be honest here. We all know that pros typically win more than your average owner handler. They just do. And I'm not talking about "pro breeder owner handlers" who certainly exist, I'm talking your typical owner handler. In california it is uncommon to see an owner handler win. It happens, sure, but most of the time the points go to the pro. Full disclosure, I use a pro for my dogs at the moment and have Smooch out showing now. She has picked up 8 points in just over a month. Do I think I could have done that? No way. Will she finish quicker with our handler than she would have with me showing her? Absolutely. That's why I hired them. Does that make her a better dog than she would have been if it had taken me 2 years to finish her as an owner handler? Nope. The point was that the time it takes to finish is not necessarily indicative of the quality of the dog. Smooch is a very nice bitch and has done quite well in the ring, but if I had chosen to show her myself and taken an eternity to finish her it wouldn't make her less than a bitch finished quickly by a pro.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It's like 10, 00 hours in Outliers/ Malcolm Gladwell. If a person started out as a junior handler, and passionately showed dogs straight through to age forty five as a professional, she has put all those precious hours of learning into showing dogs.( I was putting all those hours into teaching English and Creative Writing. ) 

Smooch is a great example. She is gorgeous, and is the same bitch no matter who shows her. Who shows the dog is secondary to what the dog is. 

More,I think some dog show handlers are truly dog people to the core, and have much to teach. A good relationship with an iconic handler can be an important part of a breeder's education in the fancy. Just like a master breeder has much to teach newer breeders, a great professional handler has a vast wealth of knowledge to share once time is invested in a good relationship.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

CharlieBear80 said:


> Jill mentioned Sunkota. One of my favorite Goldens was from a Sunkota sire, this guy:
> 
> Pedigree: Am. CH Sunkota's Phorgone Conclusion OS
> 
> ...


I chose a Phlyer pup as a wedding present for a dear friend who wanted a golden to take to her patient sessions( she is a psycologist). Thsi worked out perfectly, as the dog is a calm happy dog with an outstanding temperament. Sunkota seems like what the OP was asking for- a dream breeder in Virginia.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Megora said:


> I think you can take full credit for a dog's CH, if you handled the dog yourself. That's about what it comes down to. Otherwise, you paid somebody to finish the dog for you and they are the ones who deserve credit for showing and finishing the dog.
> 
> And frankly speaking, if it were that easy to owner handle your dog to a CH - I think more people would be handling their own dogs as opposed to paying somebody.


I completely agree with this! And I can honestly say that I feel a new level of connection with Darcy when in the ring.
And I feel like that about field or any other activity you do with them. While titles are good, to me it is all about the journey we take together and not just a trophy dog finished by someone else.


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## sconner (Apr 17, 2014)

Your comments are really helping me to articulate what we are looking for--a beautiful, calm, happy-go-lucky, healthy, long-lived companion dog--not a high-energy field competitor. What breeders might be right for us? We currently have an eight-year-old dominant Golden female who thinks all toys, treats, crates, leashes and people belong to her. She is calm and doesn't pull us on walks. We are looking for an older male now since we are both still working full-time, but if we can't find a nice one, we will be looking for a male puppy in about a year when I retire and can stay home to train him while protecting our baseboards (smile). I am especially interested in breeders who offer additional puppy training so the puppy will start out with some basic house manners. Seniors and senior Goldens are natural allies, but a trained puppy would also be fantastic since their life expectancy would be greater and we wouldn't have the sorrow of losing a Golden so soon. Chris at Eldorado told us that she has offered puppy training before. We are really looking forward to meeting her this summer at her kennel near Richmond. Thanks to everyone on this thread for your suggestions and support, Sue

_Happiness is a Golden Retriever _


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I just had a chance to read through this thread, and I was really interested in earlier comments about the speed of finishing, whether it means more if you handle the dog yourself, breed judges, etc., and it reminded me of an ethical gray area that pops up because the GR world isn't all that big, so there's a lot of overlap of pedigrees, breeders, owners, and handlers.

I was wondering what people made of dogs who won or even finished under judges who had a personal connection to the owner/handler or the dog?

It confuses me that people would be proud of achievements that seemed, at least to an spectator matching up names and pedigrees, to be a bit tainted. Obviously, it's straight-up cheating to show a dog to his own breeder (I'm assuming here because I don't know all the official rules), but there are sometimes grayer areas. For example, what if the owner/handler owns several dogs, and the judge is the breeder of one of their _other_ dogs? For me, that would taint the win. And if I had done it, I certainly wouldn't brag about it, given how there aren't really secrets when everything's printed up in a catalog for anybody to see.

That's easy for me to say, though, since I've never tried my hand at winning in the breed ring or even tried to get a dog who could. Maybe with all the expense and unpredictability of competition, those kinds of shortcuts seem like the norm and maybe not so unethical as they appear from the outside. Maybe it's hard enough to avoid people you're connected with, especially when it comes to breed judges, so you just show the dog and hope people don't notice or don't care that few or none of his points came from an unbiased judge.

Anybody have any thoughts on the sportsmanship of that and whether you could keep a dog or a breeder on your wish list if you found out the title was gained with some degree of gray-area nepotism?


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Totally off topic - maybe open another thread about that subject for any who are interested in it ?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

All points cannot be earned under 1 judge. So 1 win may be because a judge has some connection to the handler, but the rest of the points would not be. If there is gray area it is up to the owner not to enter under that judge. And if the judge is aware of it at the time, to deal with the situation as they see fit. 

Unfortunately politics are part of dog shows and you either play the game or you don't. There will be times your dog doesn't win due to politics and maybe times the win goes your way. 


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> All points cannot be earned under 1 judge. So 1 win may be because a judge has some connection to the handler, but the rest of the points would not be. If there is gray area it is up to the owner not to enter under that judge. And if the judge is aware of it at the time, to deal with the situation as they see fit.
> 
> Unfortunately politics are part of dog shows and you either play the game or you don't. There will be times your dog doesn't win due to politics and maybe times the win goes your way.


Sure, but what if you have connections like that to more than one judge? Golden world isn't all that big, especially for people who spend a lot of time and money on having more than one competitive Golden in more than one venue.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I'm not a conformation person either, but it doesn't bother me. The show world can be a small world. Only showing to judges that have absolutely no connection to you or any of your dogs doesn't seem practical. Because where do you draw the line? There's a million ways you could link a judge to handler/owner/dog.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I have been looking at the judges (you can search them on infodog.com, AKC, wesminsterkennelclub.org) and honestly I did not see many GR breeders. As a matter of fact I only came across one so far. I am only a few months in the show ring arena and sure I have not encountered many. 
Like Michelle said, you have to get the points under different judges. I was talking to this handler (she shows different breeds) about an event and the judges, she has not shown under this one judge since 2006. If you also look at their assignments, they are all over the country.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

To the OP, you need to figure out what you want in a dog. My first golden came from sow lines with an occasional obedience titles thrown in. I very easily got a CD and CDX as a novice with one young child. So then I went to multi purpose lines. My working line bred girl was much higher octane than the first girl. She was a working machine. At that time, I now had two young children. She required daily training to exercise her brain. She,too, easily got her CD and CDX and then her UD. She was not as pretty as my first girl, although she was Ch sired. Think about the important characteristics you want in a pet. My current dogs are predominately couch potatoes. They require little exercise to be good house dogs, but love to run on walks.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> I was wondering what people made of dogs who won or even finished under judges who had a personal connection to the owner/handler or the dog?


Tippy, I think that the appearance of favoritism in any way is something that a lot of people crab about the instant they see something or SMELL something close to it. People look up judges on infodog and other places to see how they've judged in the past. 

I remember one of the judges I looked up was a breeder of a different breed (terriers, I think). This was a husband and wife team - both judges. And one of them put up a dog they bred. And there was a huge deal about it. And there are people who won't show to these people based on that. 

There's a lot of politics in conformation and with a lot of people spending a lot of money on showing their dogs, they are looking for a reason to feel mad or disgusted about a judge who put up another dog besides their own. 

Like yesterday a husband and wife team of handlers won WD and Reserve at the show I was at. I had no problem about it because these dogs were gorgeous and over a year older than my guy and had more mature heads, were more experienced showing, and just they deserved to win. 

I glanced around to the two other people in that winners class to quip, "I guess that's it". And the curled up disgusted looks on their face was there. You just have all kinds of bad manners and crabbiness going on out there. 

In obedience there's other things going on. My one instructor was shaking her head about a show that will have two concurrent trials. She kept saying that with that judging panel - it would be LOPSIDED. With everyone choosing to show to the one judge vs the other.

**** The other thing about breeder judges, the more involved breeder judges are in the sport and more they put into conformation and breeding, the more likely it will be they will have dogs in the ring who are related to their own dogs, hopefully not actually BRED by them. An example I can think of would be Rhonda Hovan (who is a breeder judge) giving Breed to a granddaughter of dogs she bred. Just as an example. It's not nepotism and I don't think it's something that should be picked at. There's a lot of dogs out there in conformation who go back to Faera dogs.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

HAHAHAHA
are you saying that your dog is from a bunch of fat dogs???
(sorry, this just tickled me and I couldn't resist!) 



Sally's Mom said:


> To the OP, you need to figure out what you want in a dog. My first golden came from sow lines with an occasional obedience titles thrown in.
> .


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Some of the stuff you hear outside the ring is downright hilarious. When Tito got his first major win, there were 24 dogs in the class. Someone whose dog was also in the class, not realizing Tito was my dog, said loudly, "oh, he only won because he had a HANDLER". 
As did 22 of the 24 dogs in the class!!! (and his was a "no-name" handler compared to many of the others). 




Megora said:


> There's a lot of politics in conformation and with a lot of people spending a lot of money on showing their dogs, they are looking for a reason to feel mad or disgusted about a judge who put up another dog besides their own.
> 
> Like yesterday a husband and wife team of handlers won WD and Reserve at the show I was at. I had no problem about it because these dogs were gorgeous and over a year older than my guy and had more mature heads, were more experienced showing, and just they deserved to win.
> 
> ...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Musings on the conformation world....
Sure, there are politics involved, but it's less than people lead you to believe. 
Sure, dogs with handlers win more often, but it's often because the handler is a professional who can show the dog to his/her best, whereas a novice owner handler can not. Case in point, I move like a baby hippo, and when I run Tito around the ring he chops his front legs in an effort to not get 100 yards ahead of me. When a good handler takes him, he can really stride and the judge can see his true gait. I take about 5 minutes to stack him halfway correctly, a good handler does it totally correctly in 5 seconds. 
More "politics" with handlers, there are some handlers who are very well known in the Golden world and they do not take just any dog into the ring. They are very selective about who they show (as one told me, "we have a reputation to maintain, it's how we make our money) and so the judge knows that any dog they come in the ring with is worth taking a good look at, especially in a very large class. 
There are some judges that I would not show to, not because I think they were dishonest or picked only their friends' dogs, but because I know they did not like my style of Golden. Some judges like big boned, tall, beefy dogs. Not worth entering Tito under one of those judges. Some judges like dogs with long, flowing coats. Again, not worth wasting my money showing to one of those judges.
Did I select judges? In a way, yes. Tito does best with breeder judges, not nearly as well with "all breed" judges. The breeder judges *tend* to be better educated as to what is to the Golden standard, and less influenced by flashy dogs or pretty dogs who don't move well at all. At the advice of a big handler, I showed him mostly at very big shows where the judges tended to be more informed about how to judge the Goldens correctly.
And yes, there are, sadly, a few who will put up only their friends' dogs. Is it because they are friends, or because they only like that style of dog? Dunno. I congratulated someone on a 2nd place win in a large class, and she said, "oh, (judge's first name) knew she had BETTER give me something, we've been friends for 40 years". So yeah, it does happen. 
But here's where ethics come in, IMO. Every one of Tito's wins was an honest win, and I feel wonderful about his CH title. I don't know how anyone can put any value at all on a title that they have "bought" rather than earned.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> HAHAHAHA
> are you saying that your dog is from a bunch of fat dogs???
> (sorry, this just tickled me and I couldn't resist!)


Haha..was using my dying iPhone as my husband was driving us home to Maine from Philly.... But this whole conformation topic reminds me of why I did what I did in horses. I found the whole show hunter thing very subjective. Instead I got involved in combined training/eventing with my horses. In that venue dressage had some subjectivity, but if I made it through that and had a horse that could jump the moon, I was golden. Any time you are looking at the physical appearance of something and its' movement (like in dressage), isn't there some lack of objectivity, so you have to look at other things?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

yet another reason I so strongly believe that breeding stock should have titles at BOTH ends of the name!




Sally's Mom said:


> Haha..was using my dying iPhone as my husband was driving us home to Maine from Philly.... But this whole conformation topic reminds me of why I did what I did in horses. I found the whole show hunter thing very subjective. Instead I got involved in combined training/eventing with my horses. In that venue dressage had some subjectivity, but if I made it through that and had a horse that could jump the moon, I was golden. Any time you are looking at the physical appearance of something and its' movement (like in dressage), isn't there some lack of objectivity, so you have to look at other things?


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