# Go Outs



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I go with muscle memory, because in field when you send them on a blind with the "back" command they are expected to run a straight line, even though there aren't any landmarks or cues.


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> I go with muscle memory, because in field when you send them on a blind with the "back" command they are expected to run a straight line, even though there aren't any landmarks or cues.


 
I agree! If a dog in the field can go straight for a couple hundred yards, why can't an obedience dog go the length of the utility ring? I know it is easier said than done, but that is how I feel. I think we can learn a lot from field training, and apply it to many other areas. I do use markers for training, but not all the time. Sometimes I just go to an open area(such as the street), and train go outs.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I think the speed with which most dogs run in the field helps them go straighter than in the obedience ring. Gates naturally put pressure on the dog as well, which decreases speed.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I think there has to be visual clues to help. Have you guys seen the Mythbusters' episode on walking a straight line? I know this is people not dogs but I do wonder if they might have the same problem as us.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

While I think visual cues help, I don't think they are necessary. Some of the blinds we run are to the center of a level alfalfa field that has no visual markers on any side. Since there is also no suction (no factors!) I expect him to run a nice straight line for 100 yards or more. But it certainly is easier for them to run a straight line if they are running toward something, I agree. 




GoldenSail said:


> I think there has to be visual clues to help. Have you guys seen the Mythbusters' episode on walking a straight line? I know this is people not dogs but I do wonder if they might have the same problem as us.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

Aren't we supposed to get them to look out and key on something before we send them? So they go in the direction we want? We don't just let them take off where they want.
I don't know the answer to the question but if I had to guess, I would say all of the above. If I had to pick one, I would pick a mark object. That's how I get our poles in a straight line setting up drills.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

In the learning stages, yes. But then they are supposed to run in the direction their spine is facing whether or not there is something apparent to key in on. That's the purpose of drills like the wagon wheel, I believe, to get them used to heading in the direction their spine faces.
It seems to me that you run into some problems if they will only run to something that they're keyed into, because sometimes you can't get them to look at what you want them to. For example, if there's a tree that's 30 yards off to the left of a 100 yard away blind, maybe even further out, you may have a very hard time getting them to start out on the correct line unless they are used to heading out toward "nothing".
Just my thoughts, I'm so new at this I wouldn't bet much on my being right!




boomers_dawn said:


> Aren't we supposed to get them to look out and key on something before we send them? So they go in the direction we want? We don't just let them take off where they want.
> I don't know the answer to the question but if I had to guess, I would say all of the above. If I had to pick one, I would pick a mark object. That's how I get our poles in a straight line setting up drills.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Muscle memory would be my guess, but I can't rule out visual cues, I don't think. If I am sending a dog on a blind in a completely featureless environment, when he is lined up before I send him, I put my hand down. That is his cue. What happens from there I am not sure. He could be focusing on something visual or it could be muscle memory only. When we teach blinds, it is certainly visual. That is why you start by identifying the pile in the early stages and then transition to pattern blinds where the dog may be beyond the identification stage, but he has run it a number of times where it was originally identified and knows it is there.

I *think* that as the dog gets more experienced, they know to run straight in this direction until dad blows the whistle, but I can't know that they aren't thinking that they are supposed to go to a spot that they have identified in their own eye.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

We'll never know but I have a hard time believing that if you could test it and blindfold the dog, the dog would go straight. Just a hunch. I am sure there is more factoring into it like muscle memory.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

By going straight, do you mean not arcing, zigzagging, or veering off, or do you mean going straight ahead of where they are facing, not taking a diagonal line to a point not directly in front of them?

I think different answers depending on your meaning of the question.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Going straight in the direction in which their spine is *facing* and running on that straight line until told to stop.



Loisiana said:


> By going straight, do you mean not arcing, zigzagging, or veering off, or do you mean going straight ahead of where they are facing, not taking a diagonal line to a point not directly in front of them?
> 
> I think different answers depending on your meaning of the question.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

When I think of straight Go Outs, I think of a dog heading in a straight line (no zig zags, arches etc) in the direction his spine is lined up in - that is, if I lined my dog up incorrectly facing a corner and he heads in a straight line to a corner, he has actually done exactly what I told him  although it would have been a diagonal line to me.

If I line him up correctly, he still goes in a straight line towards the (stanchion, or it could be a glove, bird etc) so I guess I really mean a taking a straight line - hopefully to a point directly in front of them, but eventually they need to go straight. 

This would actually appy to field as well as Go Outs, Directed Retrieves etc.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

The way I teach my dogs, it doesn't matter where their spines are lined up to, they are going to a visual mark. Which in obedience can be a lifesaver on gloves especially, and also if the dog isn't in perfect heel position on the start of a go out. While in an ideal world my dog would always be lined up with where he is going to be sent, I sure as heck don't always live in a perfect world so I occasionally practice going where I direct his vision, not where he is facing.

Now I think that keeping on a straight line (not arcing) is a combination of nature and muscle memory. Most of my dogs will naturally run straight towards where ever they are headed. Flip's natural tendency is to take an arc out there (I told you he is part border collie!) I have to work to make him run a straight and not put an arc in his approach. He will start in the correct place, he will end up in the correct place, but if I don't train consistently then the middle part of that go out will be off center. An issue quite often seen in herding breeds.


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## KathyG (Nov 21, 2011)

After starting with a visual cue (just like blinds) they learn to follow the line sent on until directed otherwise, in this case, to sit. They learn to avoid obstacles (jumps), distractions (gloves in corners) etc. I back chain the exercise. I teach the directed jumping part first, then teach the go out part. Like blinds, it gives a purpose to running away from you (taking a jump or finding a bird) and keeps the motivation up. They don't go out to a corner looking for a glove they just retrieved because they know go-outs are about jumping, not retrieving. I simply cue it with my word and send on my field 'back' command.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Kathy G's ppost made me think of an issue I encounter with Oriana when proofing go-outs. We put gloves in one corner and then line the dog up for the go-out. A lot of dogs tend to get sucked into the corner that has the gloves, but not all dogs. Some just focus on the go-out and ignore the gloves. 
And then there is Oriana.  She says "Oh no, I know they are setting me up" and she then goes out over the jump on the opposite side of where the gloves are. :doh: She avoids the glove corner at ALL cost. She had never, honestly never, gone out over a jump in training ever before this day. It took me a few times to understand what was happening. Once I did, I decided to put a glove in both corners. She could/would not focus on straight ahead. Her head was on a swivel between bot gloves. When sent she went tentatively out and reasonably straight. We then shortened up the go-outs to take jumps out of the picture and it helped. I tend not to do this type of proofing anymore as I realize she knows not to go for the glove but it is extremely stressful for her. She really is trying.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

AmbikaGR said:


> I tend not to do this type of proofing anymore as I realize she knows not to go for the glove but it is extremely stressful for her. She really is trying.


Hank this is why I do very little proofing in obedience with Fisher. Oriana sounds very similar. He is so honest, if he has a problem he will show it, whether in testing or training. He has no hidden agendas. If I proof on something he has no problem with, he tries so hard to avoid the proof that it messes him up from doing it correctly. I thought well this is silly, I'm stressing him out and making him do it wrong! If he showed me he was distracted by something or something needed fixing then we'd do it and he'd be fine. This is where I learned not to proof until the dog shows you he needs proofing.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

K9-Design said:


> Hank this is why I do very little proofing in obedience with Fisher. Oriana sounds very similar. He is so honest, if he has a problem he will show it, whether in testing or training. He has no hidden agendas. If I proof on something he has no problem with, he tries so hard to avoid the proof that it messes him up from doing it correctly. I thought well this is silly, I'm stressing him out and making him do it wrong! If he showed me he was distracted by something or something needed fixing then we'd do it and he'd be fine. This is where I learned not to proof until the dog shows you he needs proofing.



I agree but have to add. After I do this type of proofing, her GO OUTS are rock solid. Fast, straight and no pulling up before the gates or my command to sit. Almost like she is telling me "PLEASE, I'll do it right. Just don't put those gloves out there, PLEASE!!!" LOL


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I use that pressure to help in straightening out Flip's go outs. When I see him starting to arc in one direction I'll toss a toy out in that area. He'll work after that to avoid that area that could get him in trouble.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Sharon to get back on track to your original post. I think it is different for different dogs. Some focus on a point, some use the visual of the ring and jumps to cue on, some it is muscle memory and thy will go as their nose, head and spine are lined up. I am now using visible channels in the beginning on the floor to give the dog a definitive path. I also use a box at the stanchion to be clear where to go, turn and sit. Brooke took to this like a duck to water.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks Hank - I always wonder since some dogs do very well using one method of training or another, but just don't seem to understand other methods of training. I think you are right that different dogs cue from different concepts, or perhaps a combination of concepts. I see differences in how my own dogs learn and find it interesting.

I personally think it is a combination of muscle memory and them following some point of reference, but I just don't know for sure


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## LittleRedDawg (Oct 5, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> I have to work to make him run a straight and not put an arc in his approach. He will start in the correct place, he will end up in the correct place, but if I don't train consistently then the middle part of that go out will be off center. An issue quite often seen in herding breeds.


How do you teach him not to arc on his go-outs? I have an Aussie who does that from time to time...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I have done lots of things...if he's goes really far off from a straight line I will tell him no and call him back to me, not letting him finish the go out. Going to far off is usually a result of a lack of attention to what he is doing...he isn't paying attention to where he is going so will drift off the path and then fix his path to get where he needs to be. Since his go out is based on a retrieve I will also sometimes apply his force fetch correction, because he needs to be thinking harder about getting directly to the retrieve item.

The above I consider lack of effort errors. For a smaller, more natural arc that some dogs just tend to run in, one thing I will do is put out a distraction in the direction of his arc. I will stop him if he goes towards the distraction (or seriously looks at the distraction). Then I can incorporate that same object to get him to avoid that area. Sometimes I might put it out ahead of times, sometimes I might throw it out as he is running. The other thing I have done is attatched a long line a few feet off the straight path hooked to the gate and running down the ring to my hand. If the dog looks like he is going towards the long line I will lift it off the ground to prevent him from going in that direction.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

LittleRedDawg said:


> How do you teach him not to arc on his go-outs? I have an Aussie who does that from time to time...



I might suggest "channels". You can use dowels, rope, the plastic trim used to connect seems in paneling. Lay a pathway from start to finish of the go out. If the dog is already doing go-outs start from the mid point between the jumps. Send the dog and if gets outside the path tell it "no" and reset a few feet closer to the stanchion/gates. As the dog gets the idea then lengthen the distance till you are doing it full distance with never leaving the "path". Do not rush it. If the dog is doning great and then at a point reverts to leaving the path move back to the prior distance and continue from there. Once the dog is real proficient at it you can take some of the path out. Watch carefully and if the dog starts to leave the path then that is the exact point there needs to be a path section. 
Hope that is not confusing.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I might try an experiment tomorrow with Conner tomorrow if I get adventurous. I'll set up some gate and jumps, stand in the normal go out space, but angle him so he's lined up at a point away from the center spot, then send as normal. See if he follows the line he's squared up to or the visual mark I point out to him.


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