# PROTEST letter about the hunt tests we went to



## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Hardly a surprise...I've wondered why that hasn't happened before at West Thompson - in an area with a lot of folks who aren't likely to "get" field sports - or to hang around a bit longer to see that it's not a bunch of sadists out to kill stuff for fun. They also by virtue of location are open to public spectators. 

My guess is that we'll see a lot of ignorant folks supporting her (probably the same well-meaning but equally ignorant folks that think that Wayne Parcelle and the Humane Society of the US are reputable and legitimate organizations) and we'll be fored to either not have hunt tests on public lands - or to have tests in off-seasons, or to find and rely on the generosity of landowners and have tests on private lands.

It's a pity really - do you think anyone realizes how many man-hours YGRC puts into the lands at West Thompson every year in a caretaker/guardianship role? Notice no one checked that out before printing a gross mis-interpretation....

Erica


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

West Thompson has really changed its character in the past two years, with an influx of the moms -with -strollers crew. There is no leash law there, but people have started getting edgy about dogs in general. It makes me sad! The other side of the park, across the water, has a frisbee golf course, picnic tables and tons of space; it baffles me why people who dislike the hiunt tests in particular or dogs in general don't just drive the extra 1/10th of a mile!


----------



## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I read this on the RTF... It's a bummer that this was published...


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

MurphyTeller said:


> It's a pity really - do you think anyone realizes how many man-hours YGRC puts into the lands at West Thompson every year in a caretaker/guardianship role? Notice no one checked that out before printing a gross mis-interpretation....
> 
> Erica


There have been a few well written responses in the comments section 
http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/editorials/hc-digbrflet0822.art0aug22,0,3137953.story


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

This woman may not realize that deer hunting is a huge part of the land usage for WT?? Does she not object to that? In a while into the fall, many deer hunters will use the land too. West Thompson Dam a shared space. I feel the pain of it being difficult to share lol, as many days during deer hunting season I wanted to squeeze in a dog-hike between teaching my English classes as usual, but couldnt because of the dangers posed by deer hunters. However, it is federal land that has many uses for sportsman and neighborhood walkers alike, and there are just certain times it's out of bounds. . .

Of course, I loved having the hunt tests /training group right in my backyard, but I have to say that dog people could be more polite to the frequent local park users whose favorite weekend walk is disrupted by the hunt tests . . . It's not actually true that the areas are closed to the public on hunt tests days- the courant letter responder was incorrect there. The hunt test is responsible to stop for horses and thru-hikers.
http://www.nae.usace.army.mil/recreati/wtl/wtlsgae.htm


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> I went to watch Finn & Gus' dad run Master Hunter, and witnessed a group of locals give a very hard time to some spectaors of the trial. (For years, I lived in Pomfret CT and trained a little with the hunt test retriever group there- very friendly people. It is annoying for the daily dog walkers at West Thompson Dam when the hunt tests take over the park) . This is what was written in the news paper! Yikes. . .Hartford Courant:
> _Last Sunday, I walked my dog at the West Thompson Dam. Signs were posted by the Yankee Golden Retriever Club that a hunting retriever test was being held at the park.
> 
> I didn't walk far before I came upon a trailer stacked with crates crammed full of frightened mallard ducks. Then I realized these struggling animals were going to be slaughtered by "sportsmen" in a public recreational facility. I was extremely distraught and left the park, not bearing to stay at a place where harmless animals would be killed for fun._


Cheer up. Maybe Obama-care will pass, and this bunny hugger can go back on his medication!

EvanG


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I am one of those who would have to walk away, but I wouldn't complain to anyone. I can't even eat fish now without thinking about them being killed. I love the taste of meat and fish, but as I get older I just can't do it. So if I can't eat it, I sure wouldn't be able to watch someone kill it...

Yup...I'd be a bunny hugger.


----------



## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I"m not a "bunny hugger" but being ignorant of such things, and never experiencing a hunt like that...or any hunt... I'd be alittle shocked to find cute, gentle duckies caged up ready to die.

Just an emotional reaction from us who aren't involved.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> I went to watch Finn & Gus' dad run Master Hunter, and witnessed a group of locals give a very hard time to some spectaors of the trial. (For years, I lived in Pomfret CT and trained a little with the hunt test retriever group there- very friendly people. It is annoying for the daily dog walkers at West Thompson Dam when the hunt tests take over the park) . This is what was written in the news paper! Yikes. . .


If public lands are to exist *Tollerance* of others views and in this case uses, must be exercised. I wonder how many hours each week Ms. Grandelski uses the park facilities? maybe 5 or 6? The Golden Club probably utilizes it perhaps 12 or 14 hours a couple of times per Year. 

One would have to believe that the joggers and walkers could exercise a little fairness in sharing the resource with others.


----------



## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I know it's hard to think about the ducks being used in this way but part of it comes down to just wanting your dogs to do what they love to do. I take some flack sometimes for Daisy fishing, even here on the forum. I do feel bad for the fish but I guess in the end I care more about my dog


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

A group of animal rights activists tried to cause some grief in our area when they learned about our local NAVHDA chapter running training days and tests. And we were on PRIVATE property. Fortunately, one of our members was a sheriff deputy.  We had lots of uniformed officers present which made attempting to let birds and dogs out of crates and cages a little less appealing to them... Since the group, "For Animals", is not very big, they finally turned their attention elsewhere - they stood around restaurants and diners during Friday Night Fish Frys and protested with their signs reading "Fish Have Feelings Too". :doh: Up here, they are mostly ignored, but they do all dress up like racoons and beavers for Earth Day parade.


----------



## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Deleted Post****


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> A group of animal rights activists tried to cause some grief in our area when they learned about our local NAVHDA chapter running training days and tests. And we were on PRIVATE property. Fortunately, one of our members was a sheriff deputy.  We had lots of uniformed officers present which made attempting to let birds and dogs out of crates and cages a little less appealing to them... Since the group, "For Animals", is not very big, they finally turned their attention elsewhere - they stood around restaurants and diners during Friday Night Fish Frys and protested with their signs reading "Fish Have Feelings Too". :doh: Up here, they are mostly ignored, but they do all dress up like racoons and beavers for Earth Day parade.


Down the road from West Thompson, in Middletown CT, people chalk on the sidewalks that milking dairy cows is "rape". I kid you not.


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Isn't my home state wonderful...


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> Down the road from West Thompson, in Middletown CT, people chalk on the sidewalks that milking dairy cows is "rape". I kid you not.


Oh, believe me, "For Animals" has said that. (While they eat their yogurt, wearing their leather Birkenstocks...)

One of them even asked me how I could be sure that my girls even liked the boy that I chose to breed them to, and that it was like forcing a marriage in middle eastern countries.:doh: Yep. Kinda hard to take you seriously when you are standing there dressed in a beaver costume.


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Down the road from West Thompson, in Middletown CT, people chalk on the sidewalks that milking dairy cows is "rape". I kid you not.












EvanG


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

How can a person look a deer in the eyes and kill it? How can you kill birds, ducks, whatever. I'd probably kill myself trying to avoid hitting a squirrel. My dad shot a skunk once, so it doesn't mean I don't like or could even love a hunter, but how do you kill animals? I also have friends who grew up on a farm and would go out and kill a chicken for dinner. I adore these people, but what is wrong with me that I could not do it???


----------



## BearValley (Nov 30, 2008)

OMG...and they VOTE!


----------



## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Fortunately, one of our members was a sheriff deputy.  We had lots of uniformed officers present which made attempting to let birds and dogs out of crates and cages a little less appealing to them...


I was at a horse show where I believe it was PETA protested and decided to liberate the horses in the middle of the night. Some were hit by cars, one got in the river and broke its leg. How stupid do you have to be to free domesticated animals from their cages/stalls in the middle of the night near a busy highway and a rocky river?


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Kimm said:


> I adore these people, but what is wrong with me that I could not do it???


They have doctors just for this type of thing...seriously. It's kind of sweet, but terribly irrational.

EvanG


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Here is my opinion on this and to start right off I do not have the answers.

I believe we, the dog fancy, need to be more proactive on these issues. And I do not mean go on the offense by attacking their soft heartedness. But we need to do something and quick or things will change in many areas in a VERY short time. We need to find a way to rartionally and COMPASIONATELY make our case to John Q. Public. The animal rights folks have both hands on the publics heart strings and know exactly how to play them. I think the reation of the women who wrote the letter quoted in the OP is an example of how the VAST majority of the public would react to this situation. I also know I amnot alone in having to come to grips with the idea when I started getting involved in this "game". And I still at times wrestle with it when I see judges and handlers not give the birds the respect they should. In the last couple of tests I have seen judges place the ducks on the ground between their chairs, birds put on a dryer or in a bird bag still flapping wings. I have written to both the clubs who held these tests to inform them of what I saw and that I would never again enter a test by their club.

Like I said I do not have answers, probably more questions. I truly see in the not so distant future some areas of the country will not be able to hold these events with all these issues and groups "fighting" for their use of these lands.


----------



## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

EvanG said:


> They have doctors just for this type of thing...seriously. It's kind of sweet, but terribly irrational.
> 
> EvanG



That was rude. It's not irrational for an animal lover to not like the idea of animals being killed for sport or wish to participate in or watch animals being killed. 

What becomes of these (now dead) ducks after these hunt tests, just curious?


----------



## Noey (Feb 26, 2009)

not a hunter, or a fan, but this is so sad. I think true hunters hunt proper...and use the animal as food etc., they don't hunt for sport or fun. 

This sounds like it's just for "sport" and all those poor animals. I don't get how people can be so heartless.


----------



## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

At least Daisy eats her fish? :curtain:


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

EvanG said:


> They have doctors just for this type of thing...seriously. It's kind of sweet, but terribly irrational.
> 
> EvanG


That's extremely unkind and condescending to boot.


----------



## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

The events I have participated in people usually take home the birds to use for training. I have a few in my freezer.


----------



## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> At least Daisy eats her fish? :curtain:



Although I would not wish to do so myself or watch it happen, I see nothing wrong with hunting deer or wild pig, etc for the meat. Jeff and his dad enjoy hunting out on his land in Texas, but they use all the meat and only hunt a couple times a year, and during the proper seasons.

Unless these ducks are being taken home with the dog owners and used for dinner that night or something useful, I think it's wrong. Killing animals purely for sport is not something I support.


----------



## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Noey said:


> not a hunter, or a fan, but this is so sad. I think true hunters hunt proper...and use the animal as food etc., they don't hunt for sport or fun.
> 
> This sounds like it's just for "sport" and all those poor animals. I don't get how people can be so heartless.


I don't hunt, but I am training both my Golden for hunt tests. They absolutely LOVE this opportunity to do the job Golden Retrievers were bred to do. I don't know how else to describe it, but they simply come alive.


----------



## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

sammydog said:


> I don't hunt, but I am training both my Golden for hunt tests. They absolutely LOVE this opportunity to do the job Golden Retrievers were bred to do. I don't know how else to describe it, but they simply come alive.


This is what I found too. My seven-year-old-no-field-in-his-pedigree-golden's reaction the first time he did field work is something I will never forget. Admittedly this is an issues I struggle with.


----------



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

missmarstar said:


> That was rude. It's not irrational for an animal lover to not like the idea of animals being killed for sport or wish to participate in or watch animals being killed.


I agree, and I don't know how someone being upset about this type of thing all of a sudden turns into a rant against animal rights activists. My bet is that the woman who wrote the letter was not a part of any such group, though I could be wrong. I think she came upon a scene that would have very much upset me, too. Caged ducks waiting to be killed? Yes, that bothers me very much. I love all animals, not just dogs or cats. And killing animals for sport bothers me.


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

EvanG said:


> They have doctors just for this type of thing...seriously. It's kind of sweet, but terribly irrational.
> 
> EvanG


Don't worry folks. I'm not bothered by what EvanG has written. I work where there are plenty of doc's that can help me if I need it. A dear friend is also one of "those" doc's. Loved all my psych classes, too.

I just can't kill anything unless, yes unless, it's trying to kill me. Those that hunt, if you can look it in the eye and kill it, it's your choice.


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> I"m not a "bunny hugger" but being ignorant of such things, and never experiencing a hunt like that...or any hunt... I'd be alittle shocked to find cute, gentle duckies caged up ready to die.
> 
> Just an emotional reaction from us who aren't involved.


And you know, that's fine. It's one thing not to be involved in a pursuit that perhaps you just "don't get". That's freedom. But the intolerance - the militant intolerance about which this thread began, cannot be painted with the same broad brush as merely _not getting it_, and/or _not taking part_.

It isn't enough for organizations and/or individuals like this to disagree, or even to object. Nothing short of hand-wringing protests, and infringing on the rights of those who have a broader understanding, and desire to participate in a time honored sport will do.

I pondered listing rationale that is well established and understood by the thousands of hunter/trainers who hunt with these dogs (thier purpose) and also participate in the field sports that uphold the best abilities they possess. The problem with doing that (again) is that the opponents of these pursuits aren't listening. And the participants already "get it".

Kimm, I'm sorry my bluntness is perceived as mean. But you asked, and I gave my honest opinion. As you are revolted by the sports I love, I am steadfast in the knowledge that for each bird killed in the preparation of these dogs for their life's work, it translates into hundreds of wild birds that will not be lost, but rather will be brought to the table.

Anyone is welcome to not get it. I think there is room for _you_ and the thousands of us who _do_. Here's to tolerance and thicker skin.

EvanG


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

MillysMom said:


> I was at a horse show where I believe it was PETA protested and decided to liberate the horses in the middle of the night. Some were hit by cars, one got in the river and broke its leg. How stupid do you have to be to free domesticated animals from their cages/stalls in the middle of the night near a busy highway and a rocky river?


In the 80's we'd go to dog shows and the clubs would give you a flyer telling you to NOT leae your crates unnattended for even a minute. There was an incident similar to the one you describe at a show at the Michigan State Fair Grounds, just off of Woodward Ave. Yes, I'm sure the animals preferred that "freedom". Not.


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't think of it as revolting. I have to read what I wrote once again. I just can't do it. I can't kill anything, unless of course in self-defense. I did a little research on the subject when you mentioned me being irrational. I was surprised at what I found. I guess there are many irrational people like myself. I've never protested. I would never be part of PETA. 

As a young adult I used to go to rodeos and watch the guy I dated rope calves. I wouldn't be able to do that now that I'm older. Am I getting wiser as I get older? I don't think so, but I am changing.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Kimm said:


> I don't think of it as revolting. I have to read what I wrote once again. I just can't do it. I can't kill anything, unless of course in self-defense. I did a little research on the subject when you mentioned me being irrational. I was surprised at what I found. I guess there are many irrational people like myself. I've never protested. I would never be part of PETA.
> 
> As a young adult I used to go to rodeos and watch the guy I dated rope calves. I wouldn't be able to do that now that I'm older. Am I getting wiser as I get older? I don't think so, but I am changing.


I don't think it's at all "irrational" not to want to kill an animal, just like it's not "immoral" to participate in fieldsport with dogs. It's a personal choice. 

I choose to work with my dogs in other ways because I love birds and I really wouldn't want to kill the sheer volume of ducks I would need to. I don't judge those who do participate; they tend to be great advocates for dogs, dog training, and environmental issues.

The lady's letter is just as blind as the characterization of anybody who chooses not to participate in fieldsport as irrational or weak.


----------



## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

A question to all those in this thread who are horrified/appalled/disturbed/pick-your-adjective by this sport: When looking for a well bred golden, are hunting titles anywhere on your list? I have heard many people on this board say that they believe a dog should prove it's ability to hunt in order to earn a championship... but without hours of searching I have no way of knowing whether any of those are the same people who are so turned off by the realities of what those titles entail. Not all breeders are hunters... and even if they were, taking your dogs on a Saturday hunting trip doesn't bear any "proof" of their abilities beyond your word.

These dogs we have chosen to own and love are hunting dogs. In a world where people are more likely to pick up dinner at a super market than out in the woods at the end of a rifle... how are we to maintain the drive and purpose of this breed without organized hunt tests? And how are we to hold these tests without birds? I won't lie to you, my stomach is in my throat every time I have to handle a bird... but it's the price to be paid for a non-hunter to allow these dogs to live out their most basic instinctual drives and/or prove their breeding stock. 

Those of us who participate in this sport are not heartless. But unless the Golden Retriever is removed from the Sporting Group, this is the reality we have to work with. 

Julie and Jersey


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

No...didn't look for hunt titles. I also had a Cocker Spaniel for 17 years. Go figure! Shadow and Tucker have brought me a few squirrels. So have my cats.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am an animal lover too, and my heart is stirred by a duck or a loon on the lake. However, growing up with grampa Joe, who was a Col. in the Calvary/WWII, and a horseman/golden retriever and Irish setter man all his days, I just absorbed an overall sense that there is something ceremonial and noble about hunting birds with a grand bird dog. 

There IS a respect that true sportsmen( and women) feel for the game/ducks- and I do seriously object when there is cruelty shown to the birds- it makes me sick. There is supposed to be an honor code to make sure of no unneeded suffering- like if you wound a bird, you find it even if it takes you and your dog all day long. . .

( As a "mainer", I hate when tourists come to hunt with the attitude of wounding a bird and then just saying "oh well", and turning their backs- it violates the code of honor meant to keep sportsmanship for animals as well as humans. It's the same with the super highpowered scope rifles used to shoot deer or shooting deer in snow from a snow machine/snow mobile. I could never , ever kill a deer myself, but I still respect the age-old sport when it is mindful of some "rules" to keep it "fair".)

I do relate to the basic horrified reaction of the letter writer to the crates of ducks- I have some questions in my heart too bc hunt tests and field trials are very manmade compared to a skillful hunter/dog team out during a bird season. The sheer volume of birds killed is upsetting, along with how they have no factors that give them a "fair"chance as when they are in nature. However, anyone who eats chicken or beef but then objects to hunting perplexes me- I think they are hopelessly cut off from the realities of the food chain and don't give the same respect to the chicken on their table with which Grampa Joe handled pheasants. . . 

If the letter writer throws away half a hamburger, it is the same, same "sin". 

Chickens and beef raised for food have it worse in some cases than the ducks for hunt tests at West Thompson. In a way, the letter writer's reaction is a human one to the reality of how we get the food we eat unless we are vegitarians- the leather shoes etc too, the food our goldens eat too. I saw some beautiful young baby cows grazing at Wolf Neck farm yesterday- an organic meat producer. Those glossy calves were out playing in lush green grass, and I had a pang of sorrow at their fate- but it is the reality of the grand design of mankind relating to the animal kingdom.

Like Julie, I HATE being "bird boy" and the ducks, honestly, make me sick, sad, and queasy. But then I see my show bred dog transform himself into a brave tough motivated creature of nature, and I know there is something timeless and deep about the dance.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I think William Faulkner's short story "The Bear" in the collection called Go Down, Moses is the best meditation on the morality of hunting and the proper ceremonies to acknowledge the animal's sacrifice ever written.


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> I am an animal lover too, and my heart is stirred by a duck or a loon on the lake. However, growing up with grampa Joe, who was a Col. in the Calvary/WWII, and a horseman/golden retriever and Irish setter man all his days, I just absorbed an overall sense that there is something ceremonial and noble about hunting birds with a grand bird dog.
> 
> There IS a respect that true sportsmen( and women) feel for the game/ducks- and I do seriously object when there is cruelty shown to the birds- it makes me sick. There is supposed to be an honor code to make sure of no unneeded suffering- like if you wound a bird, you find it even if it takes you and your dog all day long. . .
> 
> ...


A beautifully written dose of reality, I think. From one who often spends days in the duck blind having not brought a gun. Many times I choose to call and handle the dog. These are things rarely discussed, but that sportsmen do...some more often than others.

EvanG


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I have great difficulty eating meat as I get older. I enjoy it, but if I recognize it for what it once was, I turn it away. I do cook meat for my family, so I have no problem when other's eat it. I was thinking about this the other day. I'm not sure I'm willing to give up my whole belly fried clams once a year yet though.


----------



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> I don't think it's at all "irrational" not to want to kill an animal, just like it's not "immoral" to participate in fieldsport with dogs. It's a personal choice.
> 
> I choose to work with my dogs in other ways because I love birds and I really wouldn't want to kill the sheer volume of ducks I would need to. I don't judge those who do participate; they tend to be great advocates for dogs, dog training, and environmental issues.
> 
> The lady's letter is just as blind as the characterization of anybody who chooses not to participate in fieldsport as irrational or weak.


Thank you tippykayak, I appreciate and respect your opinion. Your post is perfect. I am on the other side of the preverbial fence and do enjoy participating in field events, both competitive and for food. I understand there are those who find these activities upsetting, and I respect that. My best friend is against my chosen hobbies however she, too, respects my choice. I do not discuss the details of my adventures and she doesn't ask (other than how'd ya do?).


----------



## dtmowns (Oct 7, 2009)

This is the dilemma I, and I am sure many others face:

I feel I would enjoy, a great deal, everything about hunting with my dog except for the actual killing of the animal. Because of this constraint I am searching for avenues in which I can let my dog explore his/her natural instincts without actually killing anything. Are there ever field trials and/or hunt tests that somehow mimic real hunting conditions without the use of live birds? I would love to know how anyone who shares my feelings on the subject gets their dogs out in the field.


----------



## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

I must say, I find this thread both fascinating and more than a little disturbing.


----------



## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

missmarstar said:


> What becomes of these (now dead) ducks after these hunt tests, just curious?


I've gone to hunt tests and worked for the sole benefit (other than watching dogs work) to bring home ducks at the end of the day. Some of the ducks are eaten (by humans) but my estimation is that the bulk of them end up in someone's freezer to be used as training.

I don't train on birds a lot but I do have a few ducks (a goose, some chukar and some pheasants) in the freezer, carefully thawing them to train with and then making sure they are clean and dry to be frozen again. I can get 10+ training sessions out of a duck - less out of a chukar or pigeon. The ducks I have aren't all from hunt tests, the others are birds that just died on a farm - a friend of a friend raises ducks for meat (sale) and tosses dead birds in a freezer for folks looking for ducks to train on. You wouldn't think so, but even with the best of care ducks have a relatively high mortality rate from natural causes.

Erica


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

avincent52 said:


> I must say, I find this thread both fascinating and more than a little disturbing.


Were have you been?


----------



## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

I just now looked at the date and realized this has been going on for a while while I was on summer vacation. 
Nevermind.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

dtmowns said:


> Are there ever field trials and/or hunt tests that somehow mimic real hunting conditions without the use of live birds?


No, there aren't. 

Dogs treat real birds differently than they do a bumper or rubber duck. There are a number of issues that come to light when a dog is dealing with a real bird, obedience, dropping (poor hold), plucking, shredding, crunching, sticking, and worst of all eating. Most, if not all of these problems would never be exposed if the dogs are only retrieving bumpers.

It would be a major detriment to the breed to award Ribbons and Titles to dogs with such flaws, or use them in a breeding program.


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Ack...SC...you had to say shredding and crunching! Wonderful answer though.


----------



## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

My husband trained our previous goldens to hunt/retrieve in the field on wild birds he shot. It may have taken him longer and he was actually hunting for food , not just sport. They were excellent retrievers and pointers/flushed too.

I am not OK with the idea of all those ducks in cages. But I do understand hunting wild animals, some of which (deer, elk) have no natural predators anymore, over multiply and die of wasting disease or are hit by cars.

I am not OK with hunting animals you cannot eat or any endangered animal or even close to being endangered.

As far as cows, if cows, chickens etc weren't raised for food, they'd become extinct as they are domesticated and would have no purpose. They wouldn't roam free (like PETA would ridiculously have them)
I live in Nebraska where most cattle are loose on the range/ large farm pasture. They aren't stacked close in a mud pen as in other places. Chickens/pigs are in the barnyard, not in cages where they cannot move and grow deformed. I hate the thought of cruelty to animals in any case.


----------



## dtmowns (Oct 7, 2009)

I do agree that training/hunting with live birds is important for breeding good dogs, etc.. I was just wondering for my particular case/ others like me.


----------

