# Help with a training question.



## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Joey and I have started a new obedience class at a new reputable school. I have a goal in my mind for Joey and I and my wishes were that after the class that goal would be fulfilled in time. We have had to classes so far and I have a question. Joey is a smart dog, he learned all his basic commands at a young age and with little training. I taught him with rewards such as treats, play time, a ball etc. This new school says the only reward is a pat on the head.. I was 100% down to try it and do that, but now im thinking what if that method isn't working for Joey? Im trying not to 'humanize' the situation for me but aren't dogs like people in so many ways? 

There are the three main types of learners for people, auditory, visual, and tactile.. Are there different methods for dogs too? The reason I ask is because the last two times at class it has been something Joey knows... but in the class he failed miserably and looked like the dumbest dog there! He wants to meet and smell the other dogs but this is like 'boot camp' and they aren't allowed to have interaction with each other. They have to be focused on us which I totally get but I think Joey would be so into me if he already met the 5 other dogs that are sitting right beside him. 

The main thing we are doing for correcting is a strong tug with a prong collar, and so far for Joey it is not very affective. The instructor also said Joey is a 'hard headed, dominant dog' which came as a total surprise to me because Joey is always very submissive in the house, around other people and dogs. 

Im thinking instead of getting frustrated and Joey getting stressed to use what I know to my advantage. Joey will do ANYTHING for a ball. I can have him down stay, sit stay, leave it, heel, anything really. Why don't I use that to my advantage and train him like that. I will still go to the classes (as no refunds are available and I spent a pretty penny!) and learn what to do, then just use what I know. 

I guess my main question is what the heck should I do? D: I feel like i blabbered away and I'm probably missing pieces or something important. I just want Joey to be able to walk on a loose leash with his flat collar, I want him to be able to get his CGC, then become a therapy dog. Right now that seems like miles and miles away. Maybe Joey is dominant over me... I have no idea but if he is I want to change that! Its just too easy to get frustrated, hes soo good for us at home its any time we go out its so fun fun fun fun play time! yay!.... help? :curtain:


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Your right there are different methods to training dogs and you need to find the one that works for both you and Joey. Yes go to class and learn how to train Joey to do certain things then go home and use prasie or a ball or treats it doesnt matter what you use as long as you and Joey are having fun and you get the dog do what you want and trained to the level you want.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I taught him with rewards such as treats, play time, a ball etc. This new school says the only reward is a pat on the head.. I was 100% down to try it and do that, but now im thinking what if that method isn't working for Joey? Im trying not to 'humanize' the situation for me but aren't dogs like people in so many ways?


You can't stop treats/toys cold turkey. You have to wean your dog off. Something that might help with your dog is to start at home (where there is limited distraction, etc) do short bursts of training (no treats, no toys, no talking) and immediately break to get a reward (toys, treats, huge parties). 

Or if you are at class, you can keep treats in your pocket or mouth and they only come out at specific times, not for every exercise, not constantly feeding your dog to hold his attention.

Treats and praise should always be a reward, not a lure. 

Just doing a pat on the head is pretty... skimpy... for owner enthusiasm. Especially when you are still in the training/teaching phase. I think your instructor is wrong there. 



> The reason I ask is because the last two times at class it has been something Joey knows... but in the class he failed miserably and looked like the dumbest dog there! He wants to meet and smell the other dogs but this is like 'boot camp' and they aren't allowed to have interaction with each other. They have to be focused on us which I totally get but I think Joey would be so into me if he already met the 5 other dogs that are sitting right beside him.


You have a golden retriever. A young one. Just stick to it, they figure it out in a few weeks. Especially if you are consistent with the rewards (treats if you are using them, praise if you are skimping on treats) 



> The main thing we are doing for correcting is a strong tug with a prong collar, and so far for Joey it is not very affective. The instructor also said Joey is a 'hard headed, dominant dog' which came as a total surprise to me because Joey is always very submissive in the house, around other people and dogs.


You should not have to use a strong tug with the prong...  Unless he is neckstrong and is ignoring the prong. 

About him being hard headed or dominant - I think that sounds pretty ridiculous. 



> Im thinking instead of getting frustrated and Joey getting stressed to use what I know to my advantage. Joey will do ANYTHING for a ball. I can have him down stay, sit stay, leave it, heel, anything really. Why don't I use that to my advantage and train him like that. I will still go to the classes (as no refunds are available and I spent a pretty penny!) and learn what to do, then just use what I know.


I know plenty of people who use toys while training. They stick the toys in their pockets or inside their shirts or tucked in the back of their pants. It works for a LOT of top trainers.

The main thing is you want that toy to be a reward, not a lure. So it stays out of sight and does not get thrown or given for tug until you actually are releasing your dog and rewarding him for doing something awesome. 



> I guess my main question is what the heck should I do? D: I feel like i blabbered away and I'm probably missing pieces or something important. I just want Joey to be able to walk on a loose leash with his flat collar, I want him to be able to get his CGC, then become a therapy dog. Right now that seems like miles and miles away. Maybe Joey is dominant over me... I have no idea but if he is I want to change that! Its just too easy to get frustrated, hes soo good for us at home its any time we go out its so fun fun fun fun play time! yay!.... help?


I guess my main thought is that if you want Joey to walk on a loose leash on his flat collar - you can train with that flat collar. You will just have to use stronger corrections than you would if you have a prong on. 

Consistency - 

Going to weekly class where your dog is consistently exposed to dogs he's not allowed to play with.

working on heeling (apart from your regular walks, these would be special training sessions where you are heeling ten steps and breaking off to REWARD, heeling 20 steps, working on heeling past friends dogs without Joey getting distracted, etc) will help you reach your goals. 

Using consistent rewards and slowly fading them away to a level you can maintain (treats in the pocket, toys in your shirt, praise and smiles always given, etc) 

Your dog will do fine with the CGC and therapy work... as long as he understands that there are times when he needs to pay attention and work _with_ you. 

*** I would personally stand your ground with the instructor. Yes, you will listen, but *you* are your dog's trainer. I don't listen to everything my instructors have told me. The instructors I bumped heads with especially were those who underestimate how complicated it can be to train a golden retriever.  Sometimes they are both the easiest and the most difficult dogs to train.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

Have you tried talking to the trainer about how you feel? If you have, and there is no way to get a refund, and since you already paid for the class, get what you can out of it. I would suggest, if you are planning on taking him to another training class after this one, that you ask the trainer if you can sit in on a class without your dog to see if it is right for you before you sign up. I really don't like the idea of a prong collar for training but that is just me. I, too, prefer treats and praise in the beginning and then weaning off the treats. I also think that in the early stages of puppy training that there should be a time for the pups to socialize. If there wasn't, I wouldn't even have a reason to attend. I can train my dog fine at home. I go to training classes for the socialize/distraction part of the process.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Im sorry you both are frustrated.... :-(

This is an attention/focus hurdle to work through...while I agree some dogs do settle down after they have had a chance to greet and sniff - it is not the responsibility for the others in the class to offer up their dogs to help other dogs settle down.... because to do so throws off the concentration and focus of their dog. UNLESS they are willing to do so with you...sort of a sniff-recall/focus-release to sniff again kind of game.

Is the instructor supportive of you using the time to stand off to the side and listen to what is going on (so you can practice at home) while you work with getting and keeping his attention? Ive had to work through this with every dog Ive had...and spent a fair number of classes off to the side working through this very issue.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Can you talk to other people in the class and see if they want to meet up before class to socialize some and then get down to business?

I do not approve of using a prong collar tug (pain) to teach the dog new behaviors, and remember since dogs do not generalize well, doing things like sit and heel in a new environment with so many distractions IS teaching a new behavior.

In addition, it is causing stress both for you and for Joey, which only inhibits learning, promotes it. You know that using treats and toys works well for Joey, so don't let the instructor stop you from using methods you KNOW work. If your instructor is not supportive of you using techniques that you know work well for training Joey, DO NOT go back to this class. Ask for a refund and go to another class or work on your own since it sounds like you have already created a good foundation.

Good Luck!


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Thank all of you so much<3 It honestly means a lot to hear your advice. I thought I was right about the different ways dogs learn too.. it just made sense in my head. After I wrote this, Joey and I went to the park (with birds, dogs, squirrels, joggers, and a river for extreme distractions) with his favourite ball hidden in my pocket. He did really good. I still put the prong on him but I didn't do the hard jerking corrections... I don't want to steer to far away from what the trainer is teaching because I don't want Joey to be so super confused when we go back... but I want him to learn at the same time. I will try talking to the trainer too.... He doesn't seem very friendly, when I asked him a question after that class he was very ready and in a hurry to push me out and wasn't helpful.... I also really don't believe Joey is a 'dominant' dog... that totally doesn't make sense... I think Joey is an insecure dog... thats about it. 

I doubt i'll get a refund as we had to sign a contract that say you can only get a refund after the trial class... okay fair enough but Joey was a star at the trial because it was just us! I will also ask a few of the people if Joey can just meet and greet before.. I would love to exercise Joey before we went but I'm at work until 5... giving me only enough time to drive home, feed Joey, then go to the class.. Maybe in a few weeks I'll try that. 

What would you guys suggest instead of the prong collar for the loose leash walking? Joey has been a LOT better with it on, and with me changing directions and making happy noises for him to follow me.. I also brought out the ball when he was walking very well beside me and we stopped and had some lovings... 

I really wanna go about doing all of this the right way. I did the petsmart training when he was younger but it wasn't taken that seriously as it was more of a socializing thing then actual training. Now that Joey is basically 2, I have goals for him and I want to work hard to meet those goals. I thank all of you again so much!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Nothing turns me off more to an instructor/class than them setting absolutes for what is and is not allowed in training. I agree different things work for different dogs and I feel "never say never."

As far as no socializing at class, I think that's a good thing. Dogs need to be able to focus on their work even if they haven't met the dog next to him. Plus the age when most dogs first start to show aggression is the age they are in training classes. Personally I don't want my dog to be the one that causes and owner to find out their dog has issues.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

Jamm, you have good instincts so go with them. It isn't just that dogs or people learn different ways, but also that some styles of teaching work better with different folks. 40 plus years ago when I was a new mom, I remember reading from a great child psychologist that while he did not advocate physical punishment at all, that a little smack on the butt would be better for mom and child than a constantly frustrated and angry parent. I never hit my kids, or used physical corrections with my furry kids, but I understand that for some people it might be ok if used only sparingly. I know your trainer isn't talking about anything like that, sort of the opposite, but I think the theory works in reverse. If positive reinforcement for you and Joey is treats, most of the time, if it works go with it. I also remember reading that the most positive reinforcement is to sometimes give treats and sometimes not give them.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Thanks Sheri. I have been working with Joey more using a ball and he is doing amazing. Everything he was doing poorly at in the class he is now doing really really well. We have been practising for about 1.5 hours a day. I'm really quite pleased with Joey, the hardest part is for him and me to get on the same page.. once we are on the same page everything starts flowing. I hope this wednesday things are good again..


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

No matter how well respected this trainer is, he doesn't know everything and most of all he does not know your dog! You are the expert on Joey, do not worry about pleasing the trainer, especially if he is not willing to work with you on finding the best way to work with Joey. You have to be Joey's advocate and if the trainer wants you to do something that is causing Joey stress, it is your responsibility to say no.

I would up the use of the ball for loose leash walking. Do you want to keep him at a heel or semi-heel position?


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