# Double B Goldens in Colorado



## jackie_hubert

I haven't seen the website but you generally want to stay away from any breeder advertising the colour of their dogs. If they use the term cream that's generally a bad sign. 

Check out your local golden club for a referral. 

Good luck!


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## jackie_hubert

Just had a look at their homepage - definitely skip them.


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## LibertyME

RUN! 
They are associated with White Dove, Whitedove...they openly advertise platinum, cream, white and red. 
The sentence on their homepage "All dogs have passed American Kennel Club (AKC) health clearances..." shows their ignorance... 

They have 14 breeding females...and coincidentally the best stud dogs for them happen to live under the same roof!

They don't do anything with their dogs other then breed them....
I didn't see even one CGC on their breeding animals. Granted on so many dogs I did not look at EVERY page. They tout ACK when it is convenient for them....but somehow cant get even a BASIC AKC certificate? 

They are not members of the local or national breed clubs...


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## ragtym

You might try Timberee Goldens owned by Sandy McFarland. I know that she has incorporated some English-type dogs into her breeding program.

Timberee Goldens


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## sterregold

Timberee would be a great option if you are interested in English style in Colorado. There are a couple of other reputable people in the area as well, Wingwatcher, which is Claire Caro and Jan Owen. Kathy Bourland (Starz) is another who has English lines in her breeding and has some lovely dogs. And one last to check out is Timberbash/Kingsgold which is Angela Berkheimer McLean and Bruce McLean. I think all of these folks are actively involved with the MileHi GRC.


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## Roxydog

I will look into some of the breeders suggested. Thanks for all your responses.


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## The Trio

I know of them and they used to be a ok breeder. Now I wouldn't touch their stuff with a 10 foot pole.


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## AndyLL

The Trio said:


> I know of them and they used to be a ok breeder. Now I wouldn't touch their stuff with a 10 foot pole.


Not so sure they were ever ok.

My Rustie came from there ~7-8 years ago.

After picking her out from the litter we were given a tour of the place.

She actually bragged on her new kennels that made it so much easier since they had wire floors.

At that time I knew nothing of puppy mills and so forth but I was disturbed.

I went through and kept Rustie because I would not go back on a puppy that I had committed to.

Rusties passing ( at 6 years old ) and a desire to find a better breed of breeder is what lead me to these forums a 1 1/2 years ago.

Do not walk... run... from this breeder.

Andy


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## AndyLL

Roxydog said:


> I will look into some of the breeders suggested. Thanks for all your responses.


Now that I got that out of my system I can maybe be helpful.

1 1/2 years ago my wife and I did research on buying a light colored Golden in colorado. Pixie was the result:










Just recently a co-worker was looking to get a Golden after 5 years of the passing their last one.

I compiled all my research including what I learned here into a 3 page word document I can send you if you want it. ( you can't PM me... you don't have enough posts so you'll have to let me know on this thread)

Some of it is personal opinion which I wouldn't want posted publicly.

As for breeders posted here... I don't remember if Timberee is on my list but our notes had Starz as being a breeder to contact next time we were looking for a Golden.

Andy


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## Roxydog

Andy,

If you could pm me that would be great. Sorry to hear about Rustie. We had a similar experience with our last dog and health issues. This is exactly what we are trying to avoid.

Thank you so much for your help!

Kevin


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## FinnTastic

Roxydog said:


> Andy,
> 
> If you could pm me that would be great. Sorry to hear about Rustie. We had a similar experience with our last dog and health issues. This is exactly what we are trying to avoid.
> 
> Thank you so much for your help!
> 
> Kevin


I think you have to have 15 posts. Keep posting and you will get there quickly.


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## Roxydog

Do I have to have 15 posts to have someone PM me?


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## Roxydog

I thought i needed 15 to pm.


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## Roxydog

I will get there soon.


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## Phoenixx

I got Phoenix from Quincyridge in Colorado. I like his breeder a lot and I love my puppy even more. She has a site, you can google it. I'm not sure if she has any litters planned in the near future but if so, I would certainly recommend her.


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## Penny10

*do not get a puppy from Double B Golden in CO*

Double B states on their website the dogs are AKC, yet they cannot provide registration papers after you purchase a puppy. We purchased a puppy afterinvestigating them with the BBC and online. I should have verified thru the AKC and did not. Our puppy was born with defective kidneys and was diagnosed with renal failure by the time she was four months old. Double B Goldens ignored our calls and attempts to resolve the matter with them. It is very painful to bring a puppy in your home, to later find out the breeder sold a defective dog and will not honor the warranty. The puppy is now 10 months old and is limited to prescription dog food only, no treats except carrots, she is not growing as her body cannot absorp all the nutrients from her food. She is not able to be spayed nor has she gone into to heat due to her inability to grow and develop normally. The Vet is estimating that she will only live for 2 to 3 years and will need dialysis. Our family has been very upset and Golden B makes it worse by not trying to resolve this with us. They bred a defective puppy. Make sure you investigate any Breeder with the AKC first. I wish I had seen these warnings online in Feb or I would not have purchased from Double B


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## K9luvr

Roxy,
Please contact me if you have any info on Double B Goldens. We have one of their pups and my friend has our dog's half brother. We're both having some issues.


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## Bogart

Not sure where you are in Colorado but at the Puablo Fairgrounds they have a big Dog show going on this weekend. Maybe you can check out the Goldens there or get in touch with some Exibitors.
I got my Male Golden 6 years ago through the puppy referral of the Mile High Golden Retriever Club in Denver. 
I'm sure they can give you a list of Breeders that are expecting or have a litter right now.


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## bdazed_denver

*Double B Goldens*

I actually created an account in this forum just to reply to this thread.

I had a fantastic experience with Double B. I have a one-year old male that is 75 lbs with an outstanding disposition. I can't go for a walk with Charlie in Denver without being stopped by someone that wants to pet him or know what kind of dog he is.

In fact, I just got back from the vet today after the one-year wellness exam and shots. The dog got an absolutely clean bill of health and had no evidence of any ailment (e.g., hip dysplasia, joint issues, heart issues, etc).

Also, about the AKC certification: When you buy the puppy, Double B gives you a very professionally put together packet. The packet includes AKC registration papers for the parents and exams for hip, eyes, heart, and joints; limited AKC registration for the pup; pictures of the pups at various stages; and a family tree with AKC certs for grandparents as well as awards. The breeders out there are obsessed about things like DNA, and keeping the place free from puppy viruses like parvo. 

Bottom-line, I found Double B very informed and professional with great breed stock. I'm sorry for the folks out there that had any trouble, but there is most definitely another side to this story.


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## Sally's Mom

As a vet I would be LYING to you if I said there were no orthopedic issues based on a physical exam and no radiographs. Heart murmurs can be missed by general practitioners and you need the special equipment an ophthalmologist has to see the eyes well. And I am sure you love your dog, but 75 lbs at one year means that more than likely your dog will be out of standard by two years as he is already the maximum weight for an adult male.


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## Rainheart

I am glad that your pup seems to be healthy. Would you share your pup's sire and dam's AKC name or number?

Sally's mom is right... You would need to visit a cardiologist, ophthalmologist, and get OFA rads done to be sure that your pup is 100% healthy.


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## BeauShel

Looking at the dogs that they show that recently had puppies. The females are way out of line for the GRCA standard. One weighs 92 pounds. 

Golden Retriever Club of America - All About Goldens
Golden Retriever Club of America - All About Goldens

Like the others said, I would not get a dog from them. I am glad that bdazed denver is happy with their dog and he stays healthy but I would not get a dog from them.


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## Sally's Mom

bdazed_denver, did you do your research? I might not have joined in, but the only Double D dog I can find on Orthopedic Foundation for Animals is Double D's Caterpillar who has an OFA practitioner heart clearance (a no no in my eyes)' thyroid clearance, and an eye clearance 4/11. However, Cat is 98lbs, female Goldens, are not to be bigger than 65 lbs !!!!!! She produced a litter with a male who was one years in October. The second litter on the website, can't find clearances on either mom or dad (Locker X Rivet). And again, both parents are way out of standard at 90 lbs each.


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## bdazed_denver

Sally's Mom said:


> As a vet I would be LYING to you if I said there were no orthopedic issues based on a physical exam and no radiographs. Heart murmurs can be missed by general practitioners and you need the special equipment an ophthalmologist has to see the eyes well. And I am sure you love your dog, but 75 lbs at one year means that more than likely your dog will be out of standard by two years as he is already the maximum weight for an adult male.



He is 75lbs at 1 year 4 months. I understand that the AKC specifies the ideal is 65-75lbs. I probably should exercise him more.

I agree with you that more detailed tests could be completed -- I was referring to the fact that he shows no discomfort or laxity during a Ortolani test.


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## bdazed_denver

Sally's Mom said:


> bdazed_denver, did you do your research? I might not have joined in, but the only Double D dog I can find on Orthopedic Foundation for Animals is Double D's Caterpillar who has an OFA practitioner heart clearance (a no no in my eyes)' thyroid clearance, and an eye clearance 4/11. However, Cat is 98lbs, female Goldens, are not to be bigger than 65 lbs !!!!!! She produced a litter with a male who was one years in October. The second litter on the website, can't find clearances on either mom or dad (Locker X Rivet). And again, both parents are way out of standard at 90 lbs each.



I think you might want to search on Double B. The dogs were a little plump, but I agree they are probably on the high-side of standard. 

Here are the reports for the Dad -- btw, this is for Locker who you were seeking out. The packet has the same for the mom (Axel, not Rivet)... but got bored scanning.


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## golden_eclipse

bdazed_denver said:


> I think you might want to search on Double B. The dogs were a little plump, but I agree they are probably on the high-side of standard.
> 
> Here are the reports for the Dad -- btw, this is for Locker who you were seeking out. The packet has the same for the mom (Axel, not Rivet)... but got bored scanning.


To be blunt all of the clearances are not correct, (except the thyroid clearance) and certainly do not meet the requirements set by the GRCA, and it is a testiment to this breeder to have the balls to hand them out to puppy owners like they are legit clearances, when anyone looking for five minutes would know they are not.

1st problem, the hips were completed at 13 months, and a dog must be 24 months for a hip clearance to be considered final. 

2nd problem, there is NO elbow clearance at all. THis needs to be completed by the OFA after the age of 2. 

The eye exam is out of data, and should be done every year. 

The Heart exam was done by a practitioner which is meaningless, completely meaningless. It really is a 35 dollar piece of fake clearance. This should be done by a board certified cardiologist or a specialist at the very least. But the GRCA recommends a cardiologist. 

I find it odd to do thyroid and not elbows. Also considering the frequency that I see imported dogs develop ED, it is very concerning. 

Sorry, but to me this breeder is very bad. Not to degree at which she is breeding poor dogs(but she is because she doesn't complete the proper clearances), but her willingness to pretend to be reputable by tricking unsuspecting puppy buyers like yourself. But I also think it has a lot to do with money. There is no other reason to trick someone like that, or breed under-aged dogs (under the age of 2) if you actually cared about the breed. Good luck with your puppy. Beware of letting them get to chubby, it can be rough on the joints.


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## Sally's Mom

Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Sally's Mom

Never mind PRA testing and icthyosis testing.


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## ragtym

This makes no sense: 


> All breeding dogs have passed American Kennel Club (AKC) major health clearances with Intelligent & Mellow Disposition


The American Kennel Club does not do health clearances. The advocate for health clearances in Golden Retrievers is the Golden Retriever Club of America and Double B is certainly NOT in compliance with those requirements.

From the GRCA Code of Ethics (emphasis mine):


> a. *Hips* – for U.S. dogs, a report from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals or *PennHIP at 24 months of age or older.* For dogs outside the U.S., a report from a health registry approved by the Golden Retriever club of that country (e.g., Canada - Ontario Veterinary College; Great Britain - BVA/KC Hip Score). *A report from the accepted health registry of another country may be used for U.S. dogs that are 24 months of age or older when x-rayed.*​ b. *Eyes* – an appropriate report from a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Ophthalmology (ACVO) or from a BVA/KC approved ophthalmologist (Great Britain). For dogs outside the U.S., a report from an ophthalmologist, as recommended by the Golden Retriever club of that country after 1 year of age. * Examinations must be done within 12 months of a breeding and reports should be recorded (certified) in an online approved database as described above. *​ *Dogs that produce offspring should continue to have ophthalmology examinations on a yearly basis for their lifetime, and the examination reports should continue to be recorded in an online approved database if the findings do not prevent recertification.* For frozen semen from deceased dogs, either an ophthalmology examination within 18 months of the date of death, or status that was in compliance with the Code of Ethics in effect at the time of the dog’s death, will be considered current.​ c. *Hearts* –* an appropriate report from a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine, Cardiology Specialty, at 12 months of age or older.* Reports should be recorded (certified) in an online approved database as described above.​ d. * Elbows* –* for U.S. dogs, a report from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals at 24 months of age or older.* For dogs outside the U.S., a report from a health registry approved by the Golden Retriever club of that country at 24 months of age or older. *A report from the accepted health registry of another country may be used for U.S. dogs that are 24 months of age or older when x-rayed.*​


Noticed this: Double B's Dually (sire of the litter with Caterpillar) - SR70189201 - no verifiable elbow, heart or eye clearances. Technically, the Penn-Hip is not verifiable but I will give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. On his page: double b's dually they list OFA results but only lists "Good" for them. A check on the OFA website shows no such clearances. He was 12 months old when he sired this litter.

Also interesting - all of their dogs pages say "Elbows clear of DJD" but only 4 of their dogs have verifiable elbow clearances in the OFA database. Who is clearing the elbows then?


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## bdazed_denver

ragtym said:


> This makes no sense:
> 
> The American Kennel Club does not do health clearances. The advocate for health clearances in Golden Retrievers is the Golden Retriever Club of America and Double B is certainly NOT in compliance with those requirements.
> 
> From the GRCA Code of Ethics (emphasis mine):
> Noticed this: Double B's Dually (sire of the litter with Caterpillar) - SR70189201 - no verifiable elbow, heart or eye clearances. Technically, the Penn-Hip is not verifiable but I will give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. On his page: double b's dually they list OFA results but only lists "Good" for them. A check on the OFA website shows no such clearances. He was 12 months old when he sired this litter.
> 
> Also interesting - all of their dogs pages say "Elbows clear of DJD" but only 4 of their dogs have verifiable elbow clearances in the OFA database. Who is clearing the elbows then?


 
Ragtym,

Thanks for supporting your point with evidence. 

I think the GRCA code of ethics should revisit 24 mos for OFC or PennHIP. Clinical studies show that PennHIP can be done as young as 16 weeks with accuracy. No other method, published or practiced, has similar compelling scientific support. According to PennHIP there is only a "marginal" improvement with age. Having a PennHIP at 13 mos wasn't a deal breaker for me based on statistics. 

(source: Frequently Asked Questions)


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## Sally's Mom

One of the big issues with Penn Hip is that you not verify clearances online. I think OFA will post them if they are at 24 months or greater. And you cannot get a final cardiac clearance until 12 months, but I think most of us would agree to wait until a little older...a practitioner cardiac clearance is garbage. I could do my own dogs' hearts, but it is worth it to me to pay a cardiologist. Four years ago, I was set to breed to a dog that had a practitioner heart clearance . I insisted he be seen by a cardiologist. Turns out he had a heart murmur determined to be insignificant by echo. He had been cleared by a general practitioner. If you are so adamant that 13 months is ok by PennHip, why are you not concerned with elbow, current eye, and heart clearances. Seeing as a dog carries more weight on the front end, elbow dysplasia scares me more than hip dysplasia.


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## golden_eclipse

bdazed_denver said:


> Ragtym,
> 
> Thanks for supporting your point with evidence.
> 
> I think the GRCA code of ethics should revisit 24 mos for OFC or PennHIP. Clinical studies show that PennHIP can be done as young as 16 weeks with accuracy. No other method, published or practiced, has similar compelling scientific support. According to PennHIP there is only a "marginal" improvement with age. Having a PennHIP at 13 mos wasn't a deal breaker for me based on statistics.
> 
> (source: Frequently Asked Questions)


But did you care that she breeds dogs before you can properly assess their temperament, let alone their conformation? What about elbows? Pennhip doesn't do elbows. I also don't buy that hips can be done with accuracy before the age of two. If you ask experienced breeders on this site, many have had a dog look good at a year or even older, but at 2 they show HD. Even more often ED shows up later on. Especially considering Pennhip is not normally a stand alone entity, it is most often accompanied by OFA, as they measure different things. Pennhip only looks at laxity of the hip joint, nothing else, where OFA looks at the big picture. Do you trust this one breeder knows better than a whole country of Golden Breeders and the National club that has no other interest than the benefit of the breed? Where this particular breeder as a lot of profit to be made, especially when she can get an extra year out of breeding by claiming a clearance at a year of age is good enough. 

It is in the best interest of the breed that we do not allow elbow clearances or hip clearances to be final until 2 years, because this forces breeders to wait until a dog is old enough to be properly assessed in other areas before being bred. Let alone the increased accuracy of assessing the joints at an advanced age, despite what one organization claims.

Also, please don't ignore the lack of cardio clearances, SAS is a serious disease in Goldens that cause sudden death at a very young age. SAS often requires an echo-cardiogram to diagnose properly (if there is a murmur present). This is absolutely something a regular vet wouldn't be able to do. 

PU is a very serious disease, and annual eye exams are crucial.


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## Finn's Fan

One of their stud dogs, Tank, weighs 114 pounds according to their website and is listed as one year old, but you can see how wonderful he is by looking at his offspring???? you must be freaking kidding me! Bdazed denver, are you in fact the breeder? That's usually how threads like this turn out, that the breeder, using some other name, comes on here to defend indefensible practices. Just sayin'!


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## bdazed_denver

Finn's Fan said:


> One of their stud dogs, Tank, weighs 114 pounds according to their website and is listed as one year old, but you can see how wonderful he is by looking at his offspring???? you must be freaking kidding me! Bdazed denver, are you in fact the breeder? That's usually how threads like this turn out, that the breeder, using some other name, comes on here to defend indefensible practices. Just sayin'!


I am not the breeder. I am not in anyway affilated with the breeder, other than being a customer. Just sayin'.


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## golden_eclipse

bdazed, 
Do you see how this particular breeder could be producing puppies with serious health problems with the number of holes in the health clearances of her breeding dogs? 

Just wondering, I couldn't be more convinced that there is no better way to breed in health problems than to loosen the restrictions on health clearances breeders should attain for their breeding dogs.


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## jpajinag

I read through these posts and decided to look at the website out of curiosity-

"plump"??? Tank is FAT!!! That is just sad, how can a one year old be that out of shape.  My 12 month old unaltered (letting him fully mature before neutering) male is tall and above standard at 77/78 pounds but we can see a slight outline of his ribs when he lays down or walks. We have a hard time keeping weight on him. He is relatively calm so he isn't just "running it off" either. Does Tank sit in a keenel all day waiting to breed or take pictures? Just Sayin'


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## nolefan

bdazed_denver said:


> Bottom-line, I found Double B very informed and professional with great breed stock. I'm sorry for the folks out there that had any trouble, but there is most definitely another side to this story.


Charlie has such a precious face. I'm so glad he has a loving home with you and that you will be able to care for him and be responsible for whatever happens to him down the road. He certainly deserves that.

But I think if you are truly honest with yourself, you will admit that his breeder, by all appearances, is not operating her kennel within the ethical standards outlined by the Golden Retriever Club of America. Those standards are set by the Club to protect the future interests of the breed. Those standards are hammered home on this forum every day by people who care very much about both the dogs and the people who give them their forever homes. No one here has a stake in this issue other than our feeling that it is ethically and morally *wrong* to sit quietly by and allow uninformed people to be taken advantage of and innocent animals to be sacrificed for the sake of a cash profit.

It sounds like your Charlie's breeder is aware of the standards but is clearly violating them to the detriment of the dogs' future health and with no regard to the elevated risk of heartbreak or financial difficulty of their owners.

Please use the search feature on this forum, the stories of sudden cardiac death you will find here are heartwrenching. If one family could be spared the grief of having their beloved golden die at their feet under the family dinner table, it is well worth insisting that we never, ever support a breeder who purposefully breeds puppies from dogs who have no proper cardiac clearances to ensure they aren't passing the problem along. This negligence on the part of any breeder is indefensible and you need to stop now and do some more research before you go any further.


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## Sally's Mom

And remember even when breeders do all the correct clearances, all the wrong things can happen. So if a breeder doesn't do all the correct clearances, where does that leave them?


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## nolefan

Straight from the OFA website...​ 
"Elbow dysplasia can be extremely debilitating. The onset
is early and patients are bilaterally affected in a significant
number of cases. Despite the ability to treat affected dogs,
there is no satisfactory medical protocol or surgical procedure
to significantly alter the progression or cure the disorder.
This poor response to medical and surgical management
is substantiated with force plate gait analysis pre- and
post-therapy. *This makes it increasingly important to reduce*
*the incidence of the disease through selective breeding.*
*Selectively breeding phenotypically normal individuals has**been shown to reduce the incidence of the disorder*."​

I can only find two dogs in the entire Double B database on OFA showing an elbow clearance. A dozen without it. I can't find one clearance done by a cardiac specialist as is recommended by OFA and GRCA. 

Double B Axel appears to have whelped her first litter at age 14 months. I'm finished with this now. Anyone who can't see the writing on the wall simply does not wish to see.


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## bdazed_denver

nolefan said:


> But I think if you are truly honest with yourself, you will admit that his breeder, by all appearances, is not operating her kennel within the ethical standards outlined by the Golden Retriever Club of America.




Honestly, I think many of the posters are overly emotional with a proclivity towards the negative. They exclude basic reasoning and probability from their arguments. Bold claims are not supported by reasonable evidence.
Look, this dog is doing good. His and my cardiac risk is about similar. You can try to introduce whatever obscure reference you want -- 0.5% prob penn hip is wrong at 13 mos; practitioner can't hear a murmur; dude’s dog is 10lbs overweight. Come on!! There is a negative predisposition here. Look deep into your souls.


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## Dakotadog

2,000+ dollars seems like a lot to me. We are paying $1500 for our pup. Also they have little info on their breeding process, no confirmation of the AKC registration, and advertise their dogs for color. I am sure that you could probably find a better (and cheaper) breeder.


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## jagmanbrg

bdazed_denver said:


> [/SIZE]
> 
> Come on!! There is a negative predisposition here. Look deep into your souls.


Spent some time soul searching last night and to the OP, look elsewhere.


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## golden_eclipse

bdazed_denver said:


> [/SIZE]
> 
> Honestly, I think many of the posters are overly emotional with a proclivity towards the negative. They exclude basic reasoning and probability from their arguments. Bold claims are not supported by reasonable evidence.
> Look, this dog is doing good. His and my cardiac risk is about similar. You can try to introduce whatever obscure reference you want -- 0.5% prob penn hip is wrong at 13 mos; practitioner can't hear a murmur; dude’s dog is 10lbs overweight. Come on!! There is a negative predisposition here. Look deep into your souls.


A proclivity to negative is not the case. 

First I will comment on your pennhip comment, you ignore half of the evidence you only read what you want to read! Pennhip only measure a small indication of the hip joint; laxity. It ignores the shape, size, formation, and every other aspect of the hip joint that affects HD. So your assumption is wrong, in one area there might be that small chance, but in other areas pennhip does not measure it is much greater; please review the OFA statements on "preliminary" results: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia for example "76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age" with the results being taken at 12 months. That is a much much greater risk. You completely ignore facts that are directly in front of you. 

ED for example the rates for dogs that are sent into OFA for results (which are typically of higher quality that the total population of goldens due to response bias, people who care to get the elbows tested probably got the puppy from tested parents. This rate is 11.1%, is that insignificant to you? Well guess what that rate is probably double or triple that when the parents or ancestors in the pedigree are not tested for the elbows, but instead affected dogs being bred to each other, making the incidence of ED become more and more common. 
This is directly from a survey of over 13000 golden retrievers: Table 7 illustrates the outcome of matings based on informa*tion extracted from the OFA database. A total of 13,151 progeny were identified in which both parents had elbow dysplasia evaluations. The percentages of progeny with elbow dysplasia more than doubled if either parent had ED, and more than tripled if both parents had ED, as compared to when both parents were nor*mal. Results of selective breeding practices indi*cate that elbow dysplasia should be considered in the moderate to high heritability estimate category (See page 7 for discussion on genetics). (doing elbow dysplasia testing must completely useless. uh?) If both parents have ED, your puppy likely has a 41% chance at also developing ED...(there are some orthopedic vets someone on here could recommend)

Double-B has a few dogs with elbow clearance, many of them don't; which means she probably tests her dogs to say she has the clearance if they pass, if they don't pass she'll breed them anyways: WHATS THE FRIGGIN POINT?? Its about money. 

You paid 500 dollars more than I did for my puppy even my dog's pedigree has all the clearances all the way to 5 generations. My dog earned his champion, both his parents were champions, and almost every dog in his pedigree is a champion or obedience champion. My dog passed all his health clearances, so did his siblings, and 5 of his full siblings earned their champions as well.

Sorry you can't admit it, but Double-B ripped you off, and you are clinging to any rationalization your mind can conceive to convince yourself that you were wrong. 

I would never care if someone did make that mistake of going to a bad breeder, I would support them and help them through puppy hood. But you are criticizing us for caring about the breed and you are defending this breeder who neglects the BASIC steps to producing healthy puppies; and is purely exploiting these dogs for her own profit.


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## nolefan

bdazed_denver said:


> [/SIZE] There is a negative predisposition here.


If you will notice the photo in the top left corner of my post, there is a very light colored golden in the shot. He is Duncan, my second golden retriever who I absolutely adored and still miss. I'm not completely sure what you're insinuating, but my only negative "predisposition" here is against people breeding dogs who feel that the 'rules' don't apply to them. Our only 'negative predisposition' on this forum is against breeders profiting at the expense of others, whether it's people or animals, and showing a blatant disregard for the betterment of the golden retriever. ​ 
Any breeder who markets his dog as having "*conformation above compare because his bloodlines are from the top kennels in Europe*" but then fails to prove the dog's individual mental or physical merit in the conformation or performance ring before breeding him (as Double B does) is DELIBERATELY taking advantage of uninformed buyers; Buyers who mistakenly assume that if it's 'European' it must be better. People do not deserve to be taken advantage of simply because they are uninformed.​ 
Fattening breeding stock like cattle to 20 pounds over the breed standard to make them resemble an over-stuffed teddy bear is sacrificing the health of those animals, simply to play to the latest fad. This forum does have a negative predisposition to breeders who don't follow the rules set out to protect the breed and who don't maintain their dogs' to their best health. The same breeder who sold you Charlie is keeping some of these puppies for his own future breeding stock, so it's another generation without proper clearances passing on questionable genes to the next litters of puppies.​ 
You make accusations of a lack of 'basic reasoning' being shown here, but there is no amount of reasoning that makes it acceptable to breed a one year old female who has not reached a sufficient age to attain proper clearances. And that is what your dog's breeder did. This forum has a negative predisposition to anyone who would breed a one year old female who has not in any way proven that she is worthy of passing on her genes. ​ 
The only explanation I can come up with here is that your ego will not allow you to admit that, while your dog's breeder is doing some things correctly, she is obviously not the best choice out there. Face it, by charging thousands for a puppy from untitled parents who haven't received all the recommended clearances, your dog's breeder took advantage of you and sold you a dog who wasn't given every advantage for the healthiest future possible . There is no shame in an honest mistake as long as you don't repeat it in the future and don't stand up in a public forum in complete denial of the facts.

There maybe be no guarantees in life, but Charlie deserves the best shot possible, no matter how miniscule you think the improving odds may be. You are entitled to the opinion that the improvement is too small to matter, but I'm entitled to my opinion that all dogs deserve the best odds available for a better quality of life. Your attitude gives the appearance that you would rather make yourself feel better about patronizing a substandard breeder than learn something new. ​ 
Please don't show up here trying to convince people that statements taken from both the OFA recommendations and entire GRCA code of ethics lack a basis in "reasoning and probability" without giving us some concrete facts to back your own accusations. You can issue thinly veiled insults here if you like, but it doesn't change the fact that this forum stands on principle and has no monetary stake (as your breeder does) or emotional stake (as your odd defense of your ego shows) in this discussion. Our only motivation here is the desire to see healthier golden retrievers, who are bred true to the standard given every chance the best possible quality of life. Educating the puppy buyers who support all breeders, good and bad, with their money, is the best way to achieve this goal.​


----------



## golden_eclipse

Is your claim that the GRCA is emotional? Just wondering. 

Golden Retriever Club of America - Health

Why would a club which sole purpose is to improve the breed make pointless recommendations? (they must be emotional) 

You do realize that the percentages you quoted would be much higher if breeders didn't do all the health clearances. Problems still occur when all the clearances are in place, so why make the breed worse off by not doing the best screening you can. 

You also never commented on assessing other aspects of a dog before you breed. How can a breeder breed in the "golden temperament" if you can't determine that until the dog is matured mentally at around 2 years old. What about conformation? Shouldn't a breeder know that an individual dog conforms to the purpose of the breed before breeding; this really can't be determined until the dog is done maturing.... (she clearly doesn't care, because they advertise the fact that their dogs are 20lbs over the standard, like that is a good thing.)


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## nolefan

kdowningxc said:


> you are criticizing us for caring about the breed and you are defending this breeder who neglects the BASIC steps to producing healthy puppies; and is purely exploiting these dogs for her own profit.


I was starting to think... "Is Tippy on vacation? Darn it, where is Pointgold when we need her?" but I have to say I think you've done a lovely job of being reasonable and factual and covering the principles. Thank you!


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## Sally's Mom

And actually part of the issue for me is that on an OFA search of Double D Goldens, I did find one from several years ago that was OFA excellent and clear elbows(but I think still a practitioner heart clearance). So at some point this breeder believed in OFA's... what cahnged and why thyroid and not elbows. The other issue which has already been pointed out is that even when you breed clear elbows to clear elbows, you can and will still get some elbow dysplasia. Those percentages go up drastically when there is elbow dysplasia present in the parents. And last, but not least for me, I cannot look at 114 lb Tank and say "golden retriever". If he were taken out of context for me, I might think he was a pyrenees. Granted that "type" in general does not appeal to me, but I can see beauty in Shalva's dogs that I can't see in the Double D dogs. And if you aren't doing annual CERF's, you won't catch the hereditary cataracts, the iris cysts, the pigmentary uveitis... never mind there is a type of PRA that you can DNA test for that is more prevalent in the European Goldens. I have examined this breed from all sides: as a buyer, as a seller/breeder, as an exhibitor(both in conformation and obedience), and as a veterinarian, and by far, the dogs with the least issues are the ones with GENERATIONS of clearances behind them. The ones with the most trouble are the unregistered, uncleared of anything dogs and the others fall somewhere in between.


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## MarieP

Sally's Mom said:


> And last, but not least for me, I cannot look at 114 lb Tank and say "golden retriever". If he were taken out of context for me, I might think he was a pyrenees.


I thought the exact same thing. They don't look like goldens, they look like Pyrenees. In fact, based on their weights, they are within the breed standard of the Great Pyrenees American Kennel Club - Great Pyrenees Ugh!


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## ragtym

No emotion, just facts:

If your pup is by Locker (Festival's Finger In The Sky) and out of Axel (Double B's Axel), this is what is behind your dog.

*Locker - Festival's Finger In The Sky* - original registration #: S27462/2008. Born 3/3/2008. No clearances in his home country. In the US, Penn-hip DI's .33 Left, .38 right (90th percentile means little without these numbers), OFA Heart clearance @ 13 months from Practitioner, CERF clearance 7/2009 @ 16 months.

Siblings: 1 HD C, ED Clear, Eyes Clear 7/2009, no clearance information in home country on other siblings. (BTW, the one dog who has clearances in the home country is named "Festival's Finger In The Nose" )

*Locker's Sire: Festival's Mc Fie* - Hips HD A, ED Clear, Eyes clear 2/2011
Mc Fie's sire: Dewmist Samsonite - Hips HD A, no elbow information, no eye information
Mc Fie's dam: Festival's Rosemary - Hips HD B, ED Clear, Eyes clear 2/2007

Mc Fie's siblings: 4 HD A hips, 3 HD B hips, 7 ED Clear, 1 ED Grade 1, eye checks at some point on 5 siblings

*Locker's Dam: Festival's Fiorella* - Hips HD A, ED Clear, Eyes clear 1/2011
Fiorella's sire: Tottelina Observer - Hips HD A, ED Clear, Eyes clear 3/2008
Fiorella's dam: Honey Queens Florida Sun - Hips HD A, ED Clear, Eyes clear 12/2001

Fiorella's siblings: 4 HD A hips, 1 no hip results, 1 HD C hip, 5 ED Clear, 0 eye checks recorded for siblings

Axel*- Double B's Axel* - SR39301601 - Unknown hip information (can't verify Penn-hip without seeing the actual Penn-hip paperwork). OFA Cardiac clearance by Practitioner @ 14 months. CERF 4/2011.

Siblings - no verifiable information exists for siblings of Axel.

*Axel's Sire: Kalocsahazi Paff* - Unknown hip information (can't verify Penn-hip without seeing the actual Penn-hip paperwork). OFA Elbows, OFA Cardiac clearance by Practitioner @ 14 months. CERF 10/2006 @ 19 months.
Paff's sire: Galans Karneval Jugendbester - Hips HD B1, ED Clear, eyes clear (2006)
Paff's dam: Kalocsahazi Ursula - Hips HD B, no elbow information, no eye information

Paff's siblings: 
Kalocsahazi Puff - SR27692702 - no verifiable information exists
Kalocsahazi Primadonna - Met.Gold.r. 6826/05 - Hips HD C, ED Clear, eyes clear

*Axel's Dam: Double B's Rake II* - SN72441004 - OFA Fair Hips, OFA Elbows Normal, OFA Cardiac clearance by Cardiologist @ 35 months, CERF 12/2003 @ 36 months
Rake's Sire: Mezneys Dallas Fan - OFA Fair Hips, OFA Elbows Normal, OFA Cardiac clearance by Cardiologist @ 12 months, CERF 9/2000 @ 32 months.
Rake's Dam: Double B's Chisel - OFA Good Hips, no verifiable Elbow Clearance, OFA Cardiac clearance by Specialist @ 19 months, no verifiable
CERF clearance.

Rake's Siblings - no verifiable information exists for siblings.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
What all this means:

On the top part of your dog's pedigree (Locker's side), there is a deep history of not only clearance for his parents but clearances for his parents'
siblings as well.

On the lower part of your dog's pedigree (Axel's/Double B's side), there is a serious lack of clearance DEPTH - especially behind Axel's mother.

That clearance depth can help to determine if there is a genetic problem in a line. Locker's parents have pretty solid hip/elbow health behind them, as evidenced by the multiple littermates that have cleared. Axel has no littermates that have verifiable clearances. Her sire has one littermate with no verifiable clearances. Her dam has no littermates with verifiable clearances. 

The more information a breeder has about not only their own breeding dogs but also the parents and siblings of their dogs, the more likely they are to produce dogs with less health issues. Double B does not have that information and if they continue to do minimal health testing, they will never have it and the puppies that they produce will suffer for it.


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## bdazed_denver

Okay, fair enough... fair enough.

It is with deep regret that at 5:36pm today that I conceptually euthanized Charlie.

It was not with maliciousness that I completed this action. Rather it was because:
a) There was deep history of non-clearance of Festival Finger in “nose” (note: nose I equated to savagery and a both barrel euthanasia)
b) PennHip was performed at 13mos; Interchange OFA and PennHip at your convenience.
c) Weighed 75.2 lbs at 16 mos; ideal weight not to exceed 75lbs per AKC
d) His parents were fat and resembled “over-stuffed teddy bears”… who's aren't?
e) My parents are from France so I find any reference to “Pyrenees” racist.
f) His “mental disposition” changed from calm to menacing at 1y4m & 3 days; I believe it was the fifth sun in the winter sky and “bloodlines from Europe” that made him evil.
g) And finally, it was my ego. I took him in, and I’m going to take him out. My delusion remains perfect -- both in adoption and euthanasia.

As it has been said, “perfect is the enemy of good.” Sleep well my sweet boy. Sleep well.


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## LibertyME

oh please....NO ONE ever, EVER would say that any dog that was bred by less then ethical breeders should be euthanized simply because of the breeding practices of the breeder that produced them. EVER.

MANY of us on this board own dogs from shelters & rescues with unknown pedigrees and yes some have even purchased a dog from less then ethical breeders and learned that there is a better way.....some have learned the hard way...

It is ACCURATE to say that we have ALL wept tears with the owners of many of those precious pups that died far too young...or faced painful surgery and long recoveries far too young... or seen families struggle with how to come up with the money to pay for treatment.. because their beloved dogs were diagnosed with painful health conditions that could have been avoided if a breeder had taken more care, spent more time, spent more money investing in the dogs they were breeding.

Its easy to be flip when you have not had to watch a dog in pain -- pain that could have been avoided...




bdazed_denver said:


> Okay, fair enough... fair enough.
> 
> It is with deep regret that at 5:36pm today that I conceptually euthanized Charlie.
> 
> It was not with maliciousness that I completed this action. Rather it was because:
> a) There was deep history of non-clearance of Festival Finger in “nose” (note: nose I equated to savagery and a both barrel euthanasia)
> b) PennHip was performed at 13mos; Interchange OFA and PennHip at your convenience.
> c) Weighed 75.2 lbs at 16 mos; ideal weight not to exceed 75lbs per AKC
> d) His parents were fat and resembled “over-stuffed teddy bears”… who's aren't?
> e) My parents are from France so I find any reference to “Pyrenees” racist.
> f) His “mental disposition” changed from calm to menacing at 1y4m & 3 days; I believe it was the fifth sun in the winter sky and “bloodlines from Europe” that made him evil.
> g) And finally, it was my ego. I took him in, and I’m going to take him out. My delusion remains perfect -- both in adoption and euthanasia.
> 
> As it has been said, “perfect is the enemy of good.” Sleep well my sweet boy. Sleep well.


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## ragtym

bdazed_denver said:


> ***snip sarcastic response***


:uhoh: Seriously? Stop being mortally offended that anyone suggested that your dog's breeder was less than perfect and doesn't practice due diligence in her breedings. She doesn't - end of story.

You have a great dog, I get that. Congratulations to you. There are others that haven't had such Cinderella stories as yours and their bad stories outweigh your good stories. If I can help one person make an informed decision about this (and other) breeders, then the time I spend here will be worth it.


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## jagmanbrg

bdazed_denver said:


> Okay, fair enough... fair enough.
> 
> It is with deep regret that at 5:36pm today that I conceptually euthanized Charlie.
> 
> It was not with maliciousness that I completed this action. Rather it was because:
> a) There was deep history of non-clearance of Festival Finger in “nose” (note: nose I equated to savagery and a both barrel euthanasia)
> b) PennHip was performed at 13mos; Interchange OFA and PennHip at your convenience.
> c) Weighed 75.2 lbs at 16 mos; ideal weight not to exceed 75lbs per AKC
> d) His parents were fat and resembled “over-stuffed teddy bears”… who's aren't?
> e) My parents are from France so I find any reference to “Pyrenees” racist.
> f) His “mental disposition” changed from calm to menacing at 1y4m & 3 days; I believe it was the fifth sun in the winter sky and “bloodlines from Europe” that made him evil.
> g) And finally, it was my ego. I took him in, and I’m going to take him out. My delusion remains perfect -- both in adoption and euthanasia.
> 
> As it has been said, “perfect is the enemy of good.” Sleep well my sweet boy. Sleep well.



Aside from the fact that your defending a breeder that obviously has some room for improvement, a lot frankly, I must admit, I hope you stick around, funniest post I've seen in a while...


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## golden_eclipse

I can't say that I find your post funny. But keep in mind it has nothing to do with you or your dog. Its about being as careful as possible when choosing to bring living beings into the world, and I think LibertyME said it just right.


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## tippykayak

nolefan said:


> I was starting to think... "Is Tippy on vacation? Darn it, where is Pointgold when we need her?" but I have to say I think you've done a lovely job of being reasonable and factual and covering the principles. Thank you!


End of semester grading. 

But what can I say, you guys hit all the relevant points. Elbow clearances cut the risk of ED by at least half. Boom, done, nothing else to discuss.

Maybe I'll also mention that I have personally known dogs who passed a prelim at about a year and then failed it at 24+ months? There's a reason the GRCA and OFA both agree on the 24 month cutoff. If I see somebody breed an 18+ month boy with perfect 18-month prelims and proven structure and ability (i.e., conformation and/or sport titles), I can understand the argument. An unproven dog with a hip clearance around 12 or 13 months? And other clearances missing? No way, no way, no way.


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## tippykayak

bdazed_denver said:


> As it has been said, “perfect is the enemy of good.”


I find jokes about euthanizing dogs to be always in poor taste, but your point needs to be addressed nonetheless.

Your use of the quote is specious. We're not talking about only breeding perfect dogs. We're pointing out that one should not breed dogs without taking advantage of the cost-effective tools out there that can limit the need for expensive medical treatment, and, more importantly, that can cut down on the risk of suffering for dogs. The better is not the enemy of the good.

Nobody said your dog was a bad dog. They said your breeder is playing fast and loose with their dogs' health. Luck can hand you a wonderful dog from a bad breeding, but a wonderful dog does not vindicate bad breeding practices. Even if you get completely lucky with Charlie (and I hope you do), that doesn't mean you should defend the breeding practices that placed him at unnecessary risk for pain. 

My first Golden was from an uncleared BYB breeding. He had shoulder surgery when he was about two (as did several littermates) and died at seven of hemangiosarcoma. He was a wonderful, wonderful dog, but out of a large litter, only one or two survived to old age (12+ years). It was a high risk litter. Experience and peer-reviewed research tell us that good breeding practices (longevity analysis, multigenerational health clearances, etc.) can cut those risks dramatically.

So please don't defend these high risk litters just because your dog is great. We love all dogs, and Goldens most of all, so I think you'll find a hugely positive reception for Charlie himself around here, just not for breeding practices that violate the GRCA's Code of Ethics and other widely-accepted guidelines for a good breeding.


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## K9luvr

Hi,

I cannot attest to all the technical clearances and health related issues as I am simply a caring and loving pet owner. I bought my dog from Double B because my friend got his pup there a few weeks before we did. I made the horrible mistake of assuming he did his due diligence in researching the breeder. I was dead wrong and unfortunately my friend who has an 8 month old pup is looking at one VERY SICK dog. Major elbow and hip issues to the point where it looks as if he will have to put his pup down. My pup still has no obvious problems and I'm hopeful she will live a happy, healthy life. My pup shares the father of my friend's pup. My pup came home with two different types of worms. We paid $2,000 and Double B, the breeder's argument, was that it's better to pay upfront and avoid spending a lot of money down the road on inferior dogs. Bullcrap! My vet said she very rarely sees the kind of worms my pup had. She was sick for a few months, had major diarrhea and we had to feed her chicken and rice for those two months. Her mom is Axel. My pup seems to be doing okay now and her disposition is awesome but I believe Double B's facility is a major marketing kennel. The breeder made comments when we were there looking which should have put me on notice, so our decision to take home her pup was based on pure emotion and little education. This woman is a rodeo gal. Her husband is an old-time famous rodeo announcer. I can now see that these types of people, rodeo people, probably do not have the animal mentality it takes to truly care about any animals or dogs. I can now look back and put together my story on who she is and what they do. I would classify her as an "ignorant" breeder who breeds to appeal to a look (color). Her take home packet does seem impressive at first sight to the lay person, but I now question whether it is worth the binder she puts it in. Since coming to this site I have learned much. We bought one purebred dog from a breeder 25 years ago and since then we have only adopted shelter dogs. We probably will go back to that strategy. I definitely admit I screwed up and way overpaid for a dog from such a weak breeder. I feel that they are all about the money and have little understanding and education about how a good, caring breeder should operate. My friend, his family and my family are heartbroken over his dog. Everyone is in pain, but most importantly, his dog is in pain and the vets that have seen him said there is little he can do aside from the sad but humane ending which must come soon.


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## Sally's Mom

K9luvr, just to put your mind at ease, a little, I have seen stud dogs sire ED and HD in a litter, but when bred to a totally different bitch, there were no problems... I think you wrote a thoughtful post and good luck with your pup.


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## Sally's Mom

I think the mother of bdazed_denver's dog is also Axel...


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## K9luvr

thank you for your kind words and I'm hopeful, as you said, that even though I have come to find that we made an improper, impulsive decision concerning breeders, our dog will be one of the lucky ones. I feel like this situation brings me to the old adage that even a broken clock is right twice a day. I hope we are one of the lucky ones. We are being extra careful to manage our dog's weight and like everyone and everything, no one knows how long we will be around. We love and appreciate Bella today and we will not try to predict the future. My sole reason for coming here was to offer our story. If someone is looking to spend lots of money on a well-bred a dog, there are many options and one should do their due diligence in researching a breeder. All that glitters is not gold.


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## Sally's Mom

I raise my guys prophylactically on Dasuquin w/MSM and fish oil for joint health.


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## nolefan

k9luvr, Bless you for having the courage and conscience to talk about such a painful experience. Your story here WILL be seen by someone doing research and it will help give at least one familly pause. Thank you for that. My prayers for your Belle that she gives you many long happy years. My prayers for your friends and their dog that they are able to find the strength and resources to take whatever path is best for their dog.
---------------------------------




jagmanbrg said:


> Aside from the fact that you're defending a breeder that obviously has some room for improvement, a lot frankly, I must admit, I hope you stick around, funniest post I've seen in a while...


 
Sorry Matt, gotta disagree with you on this one... I don't think this forum is improved one bit by someone who automatically defaults to snide sarcasm when it becomes apparent his argument doesn't hold water... (not a single useful bit of concrete information out of the whole bit from him.) Must be a joy to live with that one.

Tippy, glad it was just work getting in the way and not something more serious  I always look for your response first when someone shows up here wanting to play "I'm smarter than all of you put together" instead of having an actual conversation. Thank you


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## Forbes

Roxydog said:


> Anyone have any recent info about this breeder? I am looking for a cream color golden but must have great health and temperment. Reading about all the health issues of goldens is a bit scary. Any info about this breeder or any other in Colorado would be greatly appreciated.​


Quote They are excellent breeders and I love my dogs Quote


----------



## Forbes

bdazed_denver said:


> Ragtym,
> 
> Thanks for supporting your point with evidence.
> 
> I think the GRCA code of ethics should revisit 24 mos for OFC or PennHIP. Clinical studies show that PennHIP can be done as young as 16 weeks with accuracy. No other method, published or practiced, has similar compelling scientific support. According to PennHIP there is only a "marginal" improvement with age. Having a PennHIP at 13 mos wasn't a deal breaker for me based on statistics.
> 
> (source: Frequently Asked Questions)


certifi
Quote: I think that OFA does the clearances and AKC approves OFA Clearances along with CERF (Eyes), PennHIP (Elbows and Hips), SAS (Heart)
and (Thyroid). If these clearances are not adequate then I guess everybodies beef is against AKC. Right? Quote


----------



## Pointgold

Forbes said:


> certifi
> Quote: I think that OFA does the clearances and AKC approves OFA Clearances along with CERF (Eyes), PennHIP (Elbows and Hips), SAS (Heart)
> and (Thyroid). If these clearances are not adequate then I guess everybodies beef is against AKC. Right? Quote


Nope. Wrong.


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## HiTideGoldens

Interesting that someone would come on here and vehemently defend breeding practices when they think the AKC approves health clearances....again (as in the other thread) Forbes, you are grossly uninformed.


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## Sally's Mom

AKC doesn't give a rat's you know what about clearances. AKC cares only about parentage...


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## Sally's Mom

Years ago when a local greeder/BYB falsified an OFA certificate on her "stud". I sent it into OFA, when I questioned Dr. Keller about contacting AKC, he assured me that they wouldn't care.


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## tippykayak

Forbes said:


> certifi
> Quote: I think that OFA does the clearances and AKC approves OFA Clearances along with CERF (Eyes), PennHIP (Elbows and Hips), SAS (Heart)
> and (Thyroid). If these clearances are not adequate then I guess everybodies beef is against AKC. Right? Quote


So many things wrong here.

OFA rates radiographs for hips and elbows and certifies the results. PennHIP also rates radiographs with a different system, but it doesn't have an open database. Either system is acceptable.

SAS is the name of one kind of congenital heart defect, not the name of a heart or thyroid clearance. A board-certified cardiologist should do a heart clearance, and the breeder should register it with the OFA. There's a form that the cardiologist fills out that you send in.

Thyroid is not a required clearance for Goldens, but many breeders choose to do it, and the results can be registered with the OFA, like the heart clearance, so it shows up with the dog's database entry.

CERF is the name of the eye database. You get an AVCO exam from a board-certified ophthalmologist, and that doctor fills out a form you mail into the CERF people. That'll automatically show up with your dog's OFA entry.

Here's my dog's OFA listing as an example. He's not a breeding dog, but he has hips, elbows, heart, and eyes cleared.

The beef is with breeders who skip one or more of the big four clearances because they are playing fast and loose with dogs' health, and that's not OK.


----------



## potentiallygolden

The argument is over. It was a war of tomahawk missiles versus sling shots. The antagonists in this thread are not interested in minute details like data and facts. They took negative comments about their breeder personally, and were unable to overcome the ensuing cognitive dissonance. Some people don't care about planning that involves more than their gut, and to them I wish luck and happiness. There's a place to go online if you trust reasonable analysis and informed exchanges, and it's called goldenretrieverforum.com. My $0.02


----------



## Forbes

nolefan said:


> Charlie has such a precious face. I'm so glad he has a loving home with you and that you will be able to care for him and be responsible for whatever happens to him down the road. He certainly deserves that.
> 
> But I think if you are truly honest with yourself, you will admit that his breeder, by all appearances, is not operating her kennel within the ethical standards outlined by the Golden Retriever Club of America. Those standards are set by the Club to protect the future interests of the breed. Those standards are hammered home on this forum every day by people who care very much about both the dogs and the people who give them their forever homes. No one here has a stake in this issue other than our feeling that it is ethically and morally *wrong* to sit quietly by and allow uninformed people to be taken advantage of and innocent animals to be sacrificed for the sake of a cash profit.
> 
> It sounds like your Charlie's breeder is aware of the standards but is clearly violating them to the detriment of the dogs' future health and with no regard to the elevated risk of heartbreak or financial difficulty of their owners.
> 
> Please use the search feature on this forum, the stories of sudden cardiac death you will find here are heartwrenching. If one family could be spared the grief of having their beloved golden die at their feet under the family dinner table, it is well worth insisting that we never, ever support a breeder who purposefully breeds puppies from dogs who have no proper cardiac clearances to ensure they aren't passing the problem along. This negligence on the part of any breeder is indefensible and you need to stop now and do some more research before you go any further.


Quote: I have read the information given on this thread from all of you and it seems like this nolefan person is a member of this GRCA or some other group out to attack anybody that isn't them. Just keep your Charlie because you by far won this battle with a beautiful dog. As for nolefan, please keep your opinions to yourself I have two of these dogs and they are completely healthy with all of the clearances you say they need to have in writing. BTW your ignorance is shown by your lack of knowledge European, English, what ever you want to call them are suppose to be bigger than your GRCA Standards thats what people want is big, blocky and white.


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## My Big Kahuna

Forbes said:


> Quote: I have read the information given on this thread from all of you and it seems like this nolefan person is a member of this GRCA or some other group out to attack anybody that isn't them. Just keep your Charlie because you by far won this battle with a beautiful dog. As for nolefan, please keep your opinions to yourself I have two of these dogs and they are completely healthy with all of the clearances you say they need to have in writing. BTW your ignorance is shown by your lack of knowledge European, English, what ever you want to call them are suppose to be bigger than your GRCA Standards thats what people want is big, blocky and white.


I have no words :doh:


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## Pointgold

Forbes said:


> Quote: I have read the information given on this thread from all of you and it seems like this nolefan person is a member of this GRCA or some other group out to attack anybody that isn't them. Just keep your Charlie because you by far won this battle with a beautiful dog. As for nolefan, please keep your opinions to yourself I have two of these dogs and they are completely healthy with all of the clearances you say they need to have in writing. BTW your ignorance is shown by your lack of knowledge European, English, what ever you want to call them are suppose to be bigger than your GRCA Standards thats what people want is big, blocky and white.


 
Okay, I cannot help it.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Please read CAREFULLY the below and take special note of size and color.


Here is the breed standard for the "English" Golden Retriever: 
*The Breed Standard*_Published with kind permission from The Kennel Club_*GENERAL APPEARANCE*. Symmetrical, balanced, active, powerful, level mover, sound with kindly expression.
*Characteristics*. Biddable, intelligent and possessing natural working ability.
*Temperament.* Kindly, friendly and confident.
*Head and Skull.* Balanced and well-chiselled, skull broad without coarseness; well set on neck, muzzle powerful, wide and deep. Length of foreface approximately equals length from well-defined stop to occiput. Nose preferably black.
*Eyes.* Dark brown, set well apart, dark rims.
*Ears.* Moderate size, set on approximate level with eyes.
*Mouth.* Jaws strong, with a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. upper teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set to the jaws.
*Neck.* Good length, clean and muscular.
*Forequarters.* Forelegs straight with good bone, shoulders well laid back, long in blade with upper arm of equal length placing legs well under body. Elbows close fitting.
*Body.* Balanced, short coupled, deep through heart. Ribs deep and well sprung. Level topline.
*Hindquarters.* Loin and legs strong and muscular, good second thighs, well bent stifles. Hocks well let down, straight when viewed from rear, neither turning in nor out. Cowhocks highly undesirable.
*Feet.* Round and cat-like.
*Tail.* Set on and carried level with back, reaching the hocks, without curl at tip.
*Gait/Movement.* Powerful with good drive. Straight and true in front and rear. Stride long and free with no sign of hackney action in front.
*Coat.* Flat or wavy with good feathering, dense water-resisting undercoat.
*Colour.* Any shade of gold or cream, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only, permissible.
*Size.* Height at withers: Dogs 56-61 cms (22-24 ins); Bitches 51-56 cms (20-22 ins).
*Faults.* Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree.
*Note.* Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum.


And here is the AKC breed standard:
Retriever Breed Standard
*Sporting Group*

*General Appearance*
A symmetrical, powerful, active dog, sound and well put together, not clumsy nor long in the leg, displaying a kindly expression and possessing a personality that is eager, alert and self-confident. Primarily a hunting dog, he should be shown in hard working condition. Overall appearance, balance, gait and purpose to be given more emphasis than any of his component parts. *Faults*--Any departure from the described ideal shall be considered faulty to the degree to which it interferes with the breed’s purpose or is contrary to breed character.
*Size, Proportion, Substance*
Males 23-24 inches in height at withers; females 21½-22½ inches. Dogs up to one inch above or below standard size should be proportionately penalized. Deviation in height of more than one inch from the standard shall _disqualify_. Length from breastbone to point of buttocks slightly greater than height at withers in ratio of 12:11. Weight for dogs 65-75 pounds; bitches 55-65 pounds. 
*Head*
Broad in skull, slightly arched laterally and longitudinally without prominence of frontal bones (forehead) or occipital bones. _Stop_ well defined but not abrupt. _Foreface_ deep and wide, nearly as long as skull. *Muzzle* straight in profile, blending smooth and strongly into skull; when viewed in profile or from above, slightly deeper and wider at stop than at tip. No heaviness in flews. Removal of whiskers is permitted but not preferred. *Eyes* friendly and intelligent in expression, medium large with dark, close-fitting rims, set well apart and reasonably deep in sockets. Color preferably dark brown; medium brown acceptable. Slant eyes and narrow, triangular eyes detract from correct expression and are to be faulted. No white or haw visible when looking straight ahead. Dogs showing evidence of functional abnormality of eyelids or eyelashes (such as, but not limited to, trichiasis, entropion, ectropion, or distichiasis) are to be excused from the ring. *Ears* rather short with front edge attached well behind and just above the eye and falling close to cheek. When pulled forward, tip of ear should just cover the eye. Low, hound-like ear set to be faulted. *Nose* black or brownish black, though fading to a lighter shade in cold weather not serious. Pink nose or one seriously lacking in pigmentation to be faulted. *Teeth* scissors bite, in which the outer side of the lower incisors touches the inner side of the upper incisors. Undershot or overshot bite is a _disqualification._ Misalignment of teeth (irregular placement of incisors) or a level bite (incisors meet each other edge to edge) is undesirable, but not to be confused with undershot or overshot. Full dentition. Obvious gaps are serious faults.
*Neck, Topline, Body*
Neck medium long, merging gradually into well laid back shoulders, giving sturdy, muscular appearance. No throatiness. *Backline* strong and level from withers to slightly sloping croup, whether standing or moving. Sloping backline, roach or sway back, flat or steep croup to be faulted. *Body* well balanced, short coupled, deep through the chest. _Chest_ between forelegs at least as wide as a man’s closed hand including thumb, with well developed forechest. Brisket extends to elbow. _Ribs_ long and well sprung but not barrel shaped, extending well towards hindquarters. _Loin_ short, muscular, wide and deep, with very little tuck-up. Slab-sidedness, narrow chest, lack of depth in brisket, excessive tuck-up to be faulted. *Tail* well set on, thick and muscular at the base, following the natural line of the croup. Tail bones extend to, but not below, the point of hock. Carried with merry action, level or with some moderate upward curve; never curled over back nor between legs.
*Forequarters*
Muscular, well coordinated with hindquarters and capable of free movement. _Shoulder blades_ long and well laid back with upper tips fairly close together at withers. _Upper arms_ appear about the same length as the blades, setting the elbows back beneath the upper tip of the blades, close to the ribs without looseness. _Legs,_ viewed from the front, straight with good bone, but not to the point of coarseness. _Pasterns_ short and strong, sloping slightly with no suggestion of weakness. Dewclaws on forelegs may be removed, but are normally left on. *Feet* medium size, round, compact, and well knuckled, with thick pads. Excess hair may be trimmed to show natural size and contour. Splayed or hare feet to be faulted.
*Hindquarters*
Broad and strongly muscled. Profile of croup slopes slightly; the pelvic bone slopes at a slightly greater angle (approximately 30 degrees from horizontal). In a natural stance, the femur joins the pelvis at approximately a 90-degree angle; _stifles_ well bent; _hocks_ well let down with short, strong _rear pasterns._ _Feet_ as in front. _Legs_ straight when viewed from rear. Cow-hocks, spread hocks, and sickle hocks to be faulted.
*Coat*
Dense and water-repellent with good undercoat. Outer coat firm and resilient, neither coarse nor silky, lying close to body; may be straight or wavy. Untrimmed natural ruff; moderate feathering on back of forelegs and on underbody; heavier feathering on front of neck, back of thighs and underside of tail. Coat on head, paws, and front of legs is short and even. Excessive length, open coats, and limp, soft coats are very undesirable. Feet may be trimmed and stray hairs neatened, but the natural appearance of coat or outline should not be altered by cutting or clipping.
*Color*
Rich, lustrous golden of various shades. Feathering may be lighter than rest of coat. With the exception of graying or whitening of face or body due to age, any white marking, other than a few white hairs on the chest, should be penalized according to its extent. Allowable light shadings are not to be confused with white markings. Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable. Some latitude should be given to the light puppy whose coloring shows promise of deepening with maturity. Any noticeable area of black or other off-color hair is a serious fault.
*Gait*
When trotting, gait is free, smooth, powerful and well coordinated, showing good reach. Viewed from any position, legs turn neither in nor out, nor do feet cross or interfere with each other. As speed increases, feet tend to converge toward center line of balance. It is recommended that dogs be shown on a loose lead to reflect true gait.
*Temperament*
Friendly, reliable, and trustworthy. Quarrelsomeness or hostility towards other dogs or people in normal situations, or an unwarranted show of timidity or nervousness, is not in keeping with Golden Retriever character. Such actions should be penalized according to their significance.
*Disqualifications*
_Deviation in height of more than one inch from standard either way._
_Undershot or overshot bite._
*Approved October 13, 1981 *
*Reformatted August 18, 1990*


What people want, once educated, is first and foremost - a dog healthy and of sound temperament, with a VERIFIABLE history of health clearances, and to not be taken for idiots and find out that they have been scammed by the "rare white", English Cream/Creme/Creme' marketing ploys rampant on the internet. If they like lighter color or darker color, the priority is STILL health*. Period.*

*If you actually took the time to read both standards, you should see that the ignorance shown was yours. *


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## annef

UK goldens are smaller than the US dogs and dogs from Europe are supposed to bred to the UK standard which is also used by the FCI . 
'Big blocky and white' no way describes how goldens should be, even if they are bred in Europe or come from European lines. We have different shades of gold although our breed standard includes any shade of cream or gold. Annef


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## Pointgold

annef said:


> UK goldens are smaller than the US dogs and dogs from Europe are supposed to bred to the UK standard which is also used by the FCI .
> 'Big blocky and white' no way describes how goldens should be, even if they are bred in Europe or come from European lines. We have different shades of gold although our breed standard includes any shade of cream or gold. Annef


 
Just to underline the lack of ignorance from the above poster, lest forbes might suggest that Annef doesn't know what she is talking about, she happens to A. live in the UK B. be a respected Golden Retriever breeder (making her a REAL "English Golden Retriever breeder") and C. is a KC judge.


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## tippykayak

Forbes said:


> Quote: I have read the information given on this thread from all of you and it seems like this nolefan person is a member of this GRCA or some other group out to attack anybody that isn't them. Just keep your Charlie because you by far won this battle with a beautiful dog. As for nolefan, please keep your opinions to yourself I have two of these dogs and they are completely healthy with all of the clearances you say they need to have in writing. BTW your ignorance is shown by your lack of knowledge European, English, what ever you want to call them are suppose to be bigger than your GRCA Standards thats what people want is big, blocky and white.


You can't substitute bluster for knowledge and expect that you've somehow won the argument. "Big, blocky and white" describes the dogs being bred in the US by high volume profiteers for sale to uneducated buyers, not any accepted standard for _Golden_ Retrievers, English, European, Irish, French, Portuguese, American or otherwise.

I think it's also a little silly to claim they have "all of the clearances" "in writing" when you clearly don't know what those clearances are or what they would look like if they were done properly. I tried to explain them to you very patiently, but you're obviously not interested in actually learning about what great breeders to do ensure the health of their dogs.

It's a little cringe-inducing for you to come here and harangue experienced breeders and judges about their lack of education when you haven't taken the time to acquaint yourself with even the most basic information about the breed standard or the best practices of breeding.


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## tippykayak

Quote: I can't tell if this guy is trolling or is really just totally misinformed...


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## My Big Kahuna

tippykayak said:


> Quote: I can't tell if this guy is trolling or is really just totally misinformed...


Thought this from the beginning... He only has 4 posts and all are to cause controversy...


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## Sally's Mom

I learned something that I didn't know today...the UK bitches are smaller, not bigger. Thanks for the info...


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## nolefan

Forbes said:


> Quote: I have read the information given on this thread from all of you and it seems like this nolefan person is a member of this GRCA or some other group out to attack anybody that isn't them. Just keep your Charlie because you by far won this battle with a beautiful dog. As for nolefan, please keep your opinions to yourself I have two of these dogs and they are completely healthy with all of the clearances you say they need to have in writing. BTW your ignorance is shown by your lack of knowledge European, English, what ever you want to call them are suppose to be bigger than your GRCA Standards thats what people want is big, blocky and white.


I think Forbes has been drinking and posting again....


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## jimflint01

Roxydog said:


> Anyone have any recent info about this breeder? I am looking for a cream color golden but must have great health and temperment. Reading about all the health issues of goldens is a bit scary. Any info about this breeder or any other in Colorado would be greatly appreciated.​


 We just drove out to their new location near SilverThorne. met the parents and grandparents (dogs), and found every single dog at this breeder to be gentle and loving. Several children in the household, so new pups get socialized right away. While it's obvious they are breeders, we found our pup to be beautiful and playful. The little pup followed our 9.5yo female around and we take delivery here in a couple weeks. Yes, I wanted a cream colored male and that's exactly what we are getting. Beautiful pup. email if you'd like more information. Nice people. Yes, they don't live in a million dollar ranch but are on acreage and dogs were all well mannered. I liked the operation. Simple, but very nice pups and parent dogs.


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## tippykayak

jimflint01 said:


> We just drove out to their new location near SilverThorne. met the parents and grandparents (dogs), and found every single dog at this breeder to be gentle and loving. Several children in the household, so new pups get socialized right away. While it's obvious they are breeders, we found our pup to be beautiful and playful. The little pup followed our 9.5yo female around and we take delivery here in a couple weeks. Yes, I wanted a cream colored male and that's exactly what we are getting. Beautiful pup. email if you'd like more information. Nice people. Yes, they don't live in a million dollar ranch but are on acreage and dogs were all well mannered. I liked the operation. Simple, but very nice pups and parent dogs.


The issue isn't whether or not the dogs are nice. The issue is that, among other problems, this breeder does not complete the basic health testing that represents the ethical bare minimum for breeding a Golden Retriever. Please read the entire thread before you decide to take this pup. You'll learn that your money is funding a breeder that doesn't meet basic ethical guidelines and you'll go home with a pup at an unnecessarily high risk for painful and debilitating health conditions.


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## Sally's Mom

They are using Dually at stud and he is not even two years. That is enough for me.


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## Sally's Mom

At $2000 per pup, they should be close to an expensive address. Did I mention that my AKC sired pups,with multiple clearances behind them are $1000. What am I doing wrong?


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## Megora

Sally's Mom said:


> What am I doing wrong?


You're not breeding white dogs.


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## nolefan

jimflint01 said:


> We just drove out to their new location near SilverThorne. met the parents and grandparents (dogs), and found every single dog at this breeder to be gentle and loving. Several children in the household, so new pups get socialized right away. While it's obvious they are breeders, we found our pup to be beautiful and playful. The little pup followed our 9.5yo female around and we take delivery here in a couple weeks. Yes, I wanted a cream colored male and that's exactly what we are getting. Beautiful pup. email if you'd like more information. Nice people. Yes, they don't live in a million dollar ranch but are on acreage and dogs were all well mannered. I liked the operation. Simple, but very nice pups and parent dogs.


Do you have proof of health clearances for heart,hips, elbows and eyes on the parents of your puppy? If the breeder can't provide them, you are being taken advantage of by an unethical breeder.


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## Sally's Mom

Megora, Gosh darnit, next time...


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## Megora

I was going to say big and blocky - except I remember you already said you breed blockheads.  

Now you just have to make them big and white. Because that's all people want.

And I believe you could spin a story about the supreme health and temperament behind your dogs without offering any proof because apparently people will believe anything.


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## tippykayak

Sally's Mom said:


> At $2000 per pup, they should be close to an expensive address. Did I mention that my AKC sired pups,with multiple clearances behind them are $1000. What am I doing wrong?


Be less picky about where the puppies go. Don't worry about screening buyers; just sell to anybody with a checkbook or credit card. Lie about health. Hide failed clearances or don't do them at all. Say that because you're a vet, you don't need to do clearances, since you can evaluate all your dogs with your medical expertise. Breed lighter dogs or make up a story about how the color you already have is both rare and is linked to better health and temperaments. Sell vitamins and claim they prevent cancer. Blame owners when the dogs show up with the conditions that clearances help prevent.

People have a wonderful image of a healthy, long-lived companion for their family. Take ruthless advantage of their hopes and the fact that they probably don't know much about breeding and spin them the dream of a perfect, mellow, cancer-free dog. It doesn't matter if you actually deliver. Once their check clears, stop taking their calls.

If unhappy buyers show up on GRF, get your happy buyers to come on and start a flame war, or just sign on yourself and pretend to be a client or unbiased third party. Downplay the importance of clearances online. Blame the owners of the sick dog for not giving the vitamins or for having hardwood floors or for taking the pup on walks that were too long or too short.

I bet if you were willing to do all that, you could get $2500 a puppy, bare minimum. And you'd save money not doing clearances and not competing. It's really a no brainer.


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## Selli-Belle

Sally's Mom said:


> At $2000 per pup, they should be close to an expensive address. Did I mention that my AKC sired pups,with multiple clearances behind them are $1000. What am I doing wrong?


And of course, you need to have a really fancy website with a Paypal button.


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## mobeee

*Agree*



jimflint01 said:


> We just drove out to their new location near SilverThorne. met the parents and grandparents (dogs), and found every single dog at this breeder to be gentle and loving. Several children in the household, so new pups get socialized right away. While it's obvious they are breeders, we found our pup to be beautiful and playful. The little pup followed our 9.5yo female around and we take delivery here in a couple weeks. Yes, I wanted a cream colored male and that's exactly what we are getting. Beautiful pup. email if you'd like more information. Nice people. Yes, they don't live in a million dollar ranch but are on acreage and dogs were all well mannered. I liked the operation. Simple, but very nice pups and parent dogs.


I second your comments above. Double B Golden puppies are adorable and well taken care of. The parents of our pup and others that were on site were well mannered and beautiful. The owner and her children were delightful. We have friends in Fort Collins that have purchased pups from them and they are amazing looking dogs and healthy. I would highly recommend this breeder. If you are looking for this breed it would be worth your wild to give them a look. I wanted to take them all home but could only get one.


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## CarolinaCasey

mobeee said:


> I second your comments above. Double B Golden puppies are adorable and well taken care of. The parents of our pup and others that were on site were well mannered and beautiful. The owner and her children were delightful. We have friends in Fort Collins that have purchased pups from them and they are amazing looking dogs and healthy. I would highly recommend this breeder. If you are looking for this breed it would be worth your wild to give them a look. I wanted to take them all home but could only get one.


Chances are high that puppies from this breeder, DoubleB Goldens will have hereditary issues such as hip and crippling elbow dysplasia. They are not following the GRCA's code of ethics for breeding golden retrievers in the USA. There are hereditary issues in this breed no matter if they are imported or not. Cutting corners and not breeding ethically will short change you, the pet owner, of precious years with your pet. Is that something you're willing to risk? 

Litter #1

Dam: Meclen's Graceful Belle 
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1540022#animal
No hip or elbow clearances. They state she has a Penn Hip clearance for hips but this is impossible to verify as there is no database. They also claim elbows are clear of DJD but no one clears elbows but OFA. No clearances on her sire or dam either. She is not yet two years old which is when clearances can be done. 

Sire: Double B's Dually
No record in OFA database. 
State Penn Hip but again not verifiable. They also claim the elbows are clear but impossible as dogs need to be two for OFA elbow clearances and they would be on the database. His CERF exam is expired. 

EYES CERF # : GR360057 

Normal both R and L feye"



Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Sally's Mom

I have never purchased a pup with underage parents. And do not get me started on practitioner heart clearances...


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## SheetsSM

Saw this on the website: "We test our dogs temperament with certified children so they can be around any age of person."

Does OFA certify children too?


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## Kmullen

SheetsSM said:


> Saw this on the website: "We test our dogs temperament with certified children so they can be around any age of person."
> 
> Does OFA certify children too?


Lol!!! I want some certified children!! Sign me up!


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## HiTideGoldens

kfayard said:


> Lol!!! I want some certified children!! Sign me up!


Me too! LOL


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## SheetsSM

kfayard said:


> Lol!!! I want some certified children!! Sign me up!


I only want them if they're rare blockheads from Eastern Europe


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## Millie'sMom

So I guess my little red-headed irish lass can't be a certified child.


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## LJack

I just love when people breed for *confirmation*...I guess the dogs belong to a church?
It should be _*Conformation*_! So sad when you don't know or can't spell one of your main goals.:doh:

Also sad is the number of photos showing these dogs incredibly over weight. Perhaps that is contributing to the lack of OFA hip and elbow clearences. Or, it could be PennHip is more appealing to them since they can be done at or after 16 weeks. What is amazing to me is they have dogs that have OFA hip and elbow clearences as recently as October 30, 2012. So, not sure why they are not doing them on all their breeding dogs.


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## mobeee

I'm not sure where your getting the parents are underage. The parents all fall within the AKC guidelines SECTION 5..No.dog.or.litter.out.of.a.dam.under. eight. (8). months. or. over. twelve. (12). years. of. age. at. time. of. mating,. or. by. a. sire. under. seven. (7). months. or. over. twelve. (12). years. of. age. at. time. of. mating,. will. be. registered. unless. the. application. for. registration. shall. be. accompanied.by.an.affidavit.or.evidence.which.shall.prove. the.f.act.to.the.satisfaction.of.The.American.Kennel.Club.


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## Slowtea

Wow 5 litters just within the past couple of weeks!!


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## Slowtea

"We test our dogs temperament with certified children so they can be around any age of person"

So just double checking, by testing them around "certified" children that means the dog can then be around elderly people too? Who knew!


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## LJack

mobeee said:


> I'm not sure where your getting the parents are underage. The parents all fall within the AKC guidelines SECTION 5..No.dog.or.litter.out.of.a.dam.under. eight. (8). months. or. over. twelve. (12). years. of. age. at. time. of. mating,. or. by. a. sire. under. seven. (7). months. or. over. twelve. (12). years. of. age. at. time. of. mating,. will. be. registered. unless. the. application. for. registration. shall. be. accompanied.by.an.affidavit.or.evidence.which.shall.prove. the.f.act.to.the.satisfaction.of.The.American.Kennel.Club.


So, just so I understand, based on this rule designed from a record keeping (not ethical or health) standpoint and aplied to all breeds across the board (no matter when maturity happens) you think it is alright for an 8 month old bitch to be bred?

I never said that the parents are underage. Though yes in some cases they are. Prime example is Double B Diesel. He was born 1/5/08 his mother was born 11/21/2006. So she would have been bred before she even turned 1 and whelp at 14 months old. My girl is right at 14 months right now. She is not done growing and still has a puppy mind and puppy behaviors. I can not even fathom that someone would bred a baby.

And where am I getting my information on when a dog is or is not underaged? From our national club that is tasked with protecting our breed and writing our standard. So in the US, the organization that decides what a Golden is and how we should act ethically as costodians of this wonderful breed of dog. 

If you have never read the GRCA's Code of Ethics before, I would suggest you take the time. It is so valuable to understand what this dedicated organization has put down to protect our beloved breed. I have included a direct quote on breeding for you and here is the link Golden Retriever Club of America - The GRCA Club

_"Specific Guidelines

I. Dogs selected for breeding should:

Be of temperament typical of the breed, i.e., stable, friendly, trainable, and willing to work. Temperament is of utmost importance to the breed and must never be neglected or altered from the Standard.
Be of conformation typical of the breed.__
Be in overall good health, and be physically and mentally mature (which is generally not until two years of age). 
Possess examination reports and certifications as outlined below to evaluate and document status concerning recommended screening examinations; and these reports should be publicly available in an approved online database. Approved online databases include registries under management of veterinary professional associations; registries maintained by non-profit organizations with veterinary staff or advisory boards; and university-based registries under veterinary advisement. U.S. registries should be used for dogs residing in the U.S., unless previously evaluated (as in III below) prior to importation.
Hip and elbow certifications from the Ontario Veterinary College (OVC) prior to its discontinuation in 2012 are acceptable for dogs residing in the U.S., providing the dog was 24 months of age or older at the time of the examination. Reports should be recorded in an approved online database as described above. 
Submission of abnormal information to the OFA online database is encouraged.

II. The following reports are acceptable for dogs residing in the U.S.:_

_Hips – a report from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) or PennHIP at 24 months of age or older. Since PennHIP results are not automatically published, these results should be recorded in an approved online database as described above.
Elbows – a report from the OFA at 24 months of age or older.
Hearts – a report from a Diplomat of the American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (Cardiology), at 12 months of age or older. Report should be recorded in an approved online database as described above.
Eyes – a report from a Diplomat of the American College of Veterinary Ophthalmology. Examinations should be done within 12 months prior to a breeding, and results should be recorded in an approved online database as described above.
Dogs that produce offspring should continue to have ophthalmology examinations on a yearly basis for their lifetime, and if the findings permit recertification, the results should continue to be recorded in an approved online database. 
For frozen semen from deceased dogs, either an ophthalmology examination within 18 months of the date of death, or status that was in compliance with the Code of Ethics in effect at the time of the dog’s death, will be considered current."_

Not really sure where you are located but just in case or just for further info, The Kennel Club(UK) will not allow registration for a litter if the "The dam was under one year old at the time of mating". Again, keep in mind these rules are made as a bare minimum (not the ideal) and are made to apply to all breeds even though maturity ranges are dependent on breed.

I would not consider any one breeding a bitch under 2 for my breeder. I would say anyone breeding them under 1 and especially at 8 months is so far from being a reputable breeder that to me it is abuse. Golden girls do not mature mentally until around two, sometimes longer. It is not fair to ask a puppy to raise puppies. Also, it is not fair to the puppies who will likely have a poor role model of dog behavior and may suffer behaviorally from this lack their whole life.


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## Sally's Mom

Since, I made the underage comment... I agree with Ljack, my opinion is based on GRCA recommendations for breeding. The AKC is a registering body that governs parentage, not whether or not the breeding dog has appropriate clearances. Years ago, I came across a falsified OFA certificate for a local golden retriever. I contacted the OFA, who then wanted a copy to send the owner a letter. When I asked if I should contact the AKC, the head of OFA made it very clear to me that the only way AKC would get involved was if there were issues with parentage.

Just because a puppy or young bitch can get pregnant, it doesn't mean she is really old enough to be bred.


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## tippykayak

mobeee said:


> I'm not sure where your getting the parents are underage. The parents all fall within the AKC guidelines SECTION 5..No.dog.or.litter.out.of.a.dam.under. eight. (8). months. or. over. twelve. (12). years. of. age. at. time. of. mating,. or. by. a. sire. under. seven. (7). months. or. over. twelve. (12). years. of. age. at. time. of. mating,. will. be. registered. unless. the. application. for. registration. shall. be. accompanied.by.an.affidavit.or.evidence.which.shall.prove. the.f.act.to.the.satisfaction.of.The.American.Kennel.Club.


For Goldens the basic health clearances that make up part of an ethical breeding can only be completed at 24 months. Hence, we often use the term "underage" if one or both parents is under 24 months. The AKC guidelines represent a much, much lower bar, since the AKC isn't a breed club but rather an organization that registers pedigrees.


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## Ljilly28

mobeee said:


> I second your comments above. Double B Golden puppies are adorable and well taken care of. The parents of our pup and others that were on site were well mannered and beautiful. The owner and her children were delightful. We have friends in Fort Collins that have purchased pups from them and they are amazing looking dogs and healthy. I would highly recommend this breeder. If you are looking for this breed it would be worth your wild to give them a look. I wanted to take them all home but could only get one.


Beautiful is in the eye of the beholder; having full health clearances for several generations on Orthopedic Foundation for Animals is objective. Delightful children- subjective. Having attained verifiable titles like CDX, American Champion, and SH that show the dogs stand side by side with peers and contribute to the breed? Less subjective. I hope all breeders adhere to the GRCA code of ethics or the KC's in England.


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## nolefan

Slowtea said:


> "We test our dogs temperament with certified children so they can be around any age of person"
> 
> So just double checking, by testing them around "certified" children that means the dog can then be around elderly people too? Who knew!


I didn't know children could be certified either... although I have three here who I'm pretty sure are "certifiable"


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## annef

The KC now have added to the Golden Retriever specifically that no Bitch should be bred from under 18 months of age and the upper limit is 8 years No bitches can have more than 4 litters and no more than 2 caesarians. Annef


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## KB2020

*Double B Goldens - So disappointed!*

I just found this thread, and even though it is a couple years old I felt compelled to post a message. I just purchased a 2 1/2 year old female golden from Double B yesterday, and in reading this thread I couldn't be more disgusted and now I believe I was really taken advantage of by this breeder. I lost my two goldens within the last 3 months to cancer and I am devastated, so I purchased a puppy (he is now 11 weeks old). I did not buy my puppy from Double B thank god, but I have been looking for an older golden so he has a companion. I stumbled across Double B and I called to see if they had any adults, as I have tried to find one for a couple months now with no luck. Long story short, I fell in love with this adult that Double B had, and I bought her yesterday. Now (a day too late) I am doing my research and finding out that Double B is not an honest breeder. they charged me the full price for this dog that they would charge for a puppy, and she is not even a retired champion or anything. She was purchased as a puppy from Golden B and then returned after a year because the person that bought her couldn't have 3 dogs where he lived. The conditions at Double B are somewhat disturbing, and I know now that this is a typical puppy mill. I don't want to return the dog because I truly feel I am saving her life. She is a beautiful sweet girl, but she is extremely overweight at 98 lbs. She's on a diet already and my goal is to get her healthy. I was not very familiar with the GRCA requirements for the Health certifications, but after reading through this I now understand, and this dogs Sire and Dam are NOT properly certified. The HIPS were tested at 7 months, there's no Elbow certification and the Heart was done by a practitioner. My intent of writing this post is NOT for people to tell me I should have done my research. My intent is simply to get the word out that this breeder is not a reputable breeder, and I am so disgusted that I even supported this puppy mill. I will raise this dog to the best of my ability, and my only hope is that she doesn't have health issues. 
Please learn from my stupidity and do your research before you buy a dog from Double B.


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## KB2020

I posted a message about 2 months ago regarding issues I had with this breeder and since that time, I have had health issues with the dog I purchased from Double B Goldens so I wanted people to be aware. I have had her for about 2 months (she's 2.5 years old) and she has had 5 seizures during that time. My vet has diagnosed her with Idiopathic Epilepsy and she will now be on meds the rest of her life to control this. I feel terrible for my girl, but I have comfort knowing that I can take care of her. Please do your research and do not purchase a dog from this breeder.


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## Harleysmum

I am so sorry that you are dealing with this situation. I am sure that your new golden girl has already made a place in your heart. Please check out the epilepsy/seizure section on this forum. You will be warmly welcomed and find much information and encouragement on your journey with your girl.


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## jimflint01

*Double B Golden pup has turned out great*

I see some of the negative posts about Double B, and agree to a point that they probably turn out too many pups, but our 3 yo English cream golden from Double B has turned out wonderful and is super smart, with no agressive tendencies. Everywhere we go, people comment what a beautiful dog he is. Only fair to hear the good stories also.


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## ArchersMom

I don't think I'd ever consider a breeder who would sell an adult golden with epilepsy "good" or even acceptable as a human being. Even if they produced 100 great, healthy dogs. They likely knew the dog had idiopathic epilepsy but sold it anyway to make a profit. Even if they weren't aware, do you think they'd return the purchase price to the member who now loves that dog and has to deal with such an expensive and heart wrenching problem? Not likely, because they're only in it for the profit.


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## Tulley's Family

Thank you for posting KB2020. I'm sorry you are dealing with this. We just lost our 5 year old Golden from Double B to a brain tumor. We are heartbroken. I was just curious what the name of the female was you purchased - wondering if she might have been in the same line as our Ben. I cannot get a response from this breeder. I would just like some information as to what might have happened. Hope you are able to find a good way to control the seizures. Glad she has a good home!


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## Jennifer1

jimflint01 said:


> I see some of the negative posts about Double B, and agree to a point that they probably turn out too many pups, but our 3 yo English cream golden from Double B has turned out wonderful and is super smart, with no agressive tendencies. Everywhere we go, people comment what a beautiful dog he is. Only fair to hear the good stories also.


My last golden retriever, Bear, was the most amazing dog. She was absolutely beautiful, smart, and a wonderful temperment. She did develop Osteochondritis dissecans at 7 months old and needed shoulder surgery, but aside from that she was healthy until she died from cancer at 12 years old.
BUT, her breeders were a little old couple that had a couple of purebred golden retrievers and decided to breed them. I now believe it was their way of supplementing their income. They had NO BUSINESS breeding dogs. When I wanted my second golden, I did my research. I found out that goldens should have their hearts certified by a cardiologist, their eyes tested by an opthamologist, and have their hips and elbows x-rayed and sent in to be rated by the orthopedic foundation for Animals (OFA) or Penn-hip. Only AFTER all of this is done should one even consider breeding the dogs. There are so many genetic issues that haunt our breed, who wouldn't want to do everything they can to stack the genetic odds in the puppies favor. 

My point is, the breeders of my first dog were not good breeders by any stretch of the word, that doesn't mean my dog was any less wonderful than any other dog out there. She was still a wonderful, smart and overall healthy dog. By saying your breeder is a bad breeder, we aren't saying your dog it a bad dog. It's okay to love the dog but not the breeder. As much as I loved her, I could never recommend her breeders to someone else.


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## KB2020

Hello Gracie's Family - So sorry that you lost your sweet golden at such a young age. That's terrible. The name of the girl I purchased was Kimber Spring Hamm but I think that was the name the original purchaser gave her. Her Sire was Double B's Pipe and the Dam was Double B's Springtooth. I have her pedigree papers so I would be happy to look further down the line if you want to let me know who your dog came from.


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## Prism Goldens

I don't think anyone ever means to slight the dogs involved. They are the innocents in situations where the breeder should never have produced the litter they came from in the first place....
The dogs deserve someone's responsible care for all of their days- and when the 'breeder' sells them to someone and then the ball is in their court to care for the dog forever, at huge expense, when the breeder knew full they should at least alert the buyer to probable issues and should support the buyer w the costs in the future, that is what people are criticizing.


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## Tulley's Family

Dear KB2020:Thank you so much for your response. It certainly helps me understand why we lost our sweet Benny at such a young age. His parents were Pipe and Springtooth. It would appear that neurological issues are part of that particular lineage. I should have done more research on this breeder. Thank you for helping us have some closure. Bless you as you care for your dog. I can tell you will do all you can to deal with the epilepsy and give her a good home.


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## RDelaney0984

My parents purchased a White Golden from Double B's recently. He was born on August 19, 2015 thereabouts. At 8 weeks he was flown out to San Diego, we were all excited to welcome Murphy (name Nuke on their website) into the family. Well, last night Nov 20, 3 months from birth and just over one month from our family receiving him, he yelped and then DROPPED DEAD. On the spot. Gone, 3 months old. We are devastated. He had diarrhea from the time he got off the plane in San Diego and our Vet couldnt figure out why. His energy level was normal for a puppy and loved to play and chew on his toys. Like I said, last night he just DROPPED DEAD. No energy differences, acting weird or tired. Most likely a heart attack in my uneducated opinion. These people disgust me.


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## RDelaney0984

Double B's Love Bucket was the mother and Zerk was the sire. After reading some of the posts on here its even more devastating. I want to fly out to Colorado myself to take all their dogs to make sure they never put another family in this situation.


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## CAROLINA MOM

RDelaney0984 said:


> My parents purchased a White Golden from Double B's recently. He was born on August 19, 2015 thereabouts. At 8 weeks he was flown out to San Diego, we were all excited to welcome Murphy (name Nuke on their website) into the family. Well, last night Nov 20, 3 months from birth and just over one month from our family receiving him, he yelped and then DROPPED DEAD. On the spot. Gone, 3 months old. We are devastated. He had diarrhea from the time he got off the plane in San Diego and our Vet couldnt figure out why. His energy level was normal for a puppy and loved to play and chew on his toys. Like I said, last night he just DROPPED DEAD. No energy differences, acting weird or tired. Most likely a heart attack in my uneducated opinion. These people disgust me.


Welcome to the forum, I am so very sorry for the loss of your pup Murphy.


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## LJack

RDelaney my hear goes out to your family and the loss of Murphy.
I am so sorry for your loss. 
You will want to contact the breeder to let the know and I would also ask to be made financially whole for the price of the pup, though I know that will never fix this for your family. If you do not get any resolution that way, you can check to see what the state she is located in has in place for a lemon law.

Though I know you are already under emotional stress, you also may consider a necropsy to find out what happened to Murphy. 

Again I am so sorry you lost your precious Murphy so young, it is just so sad.


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## Prism Goldens

RDelaney0984 said:


> My parents purchased a White Golden from Double B's recently. He was born on August 19, 2015 thereabouts. At 8 weeks he was flown out to San Diego, we were all excited to welcome Murphy (name Nuke on their website) into the family. Well, last night Nov 20, 3 months from birth and just over one month from our family receiving him, he yelped and then DROPPED DEAD. On the spot. Gone, 3 months old. We are devastated. He had diarrhea from the time he got off the plane in San Diego and our Vet couldnt figure out why. His energy level was normal for a puppy and loved to play and chew on his toys. Like I said, last night he just DROPPED DEAD. No energy differences, acting weird or tired. Most likely a heart attack in my uneducated opinion. These people disgust me.


I am so sorry for you and your family. I hope there is a lemon law where you or she live. You are probably correct- not really a heart attack but dropping dead out of the blue usually indicates SAS 
(sub-aortic stenosis) and that is more common in the boys - so if there were other males in the litter the conscientious thing for the breeder to do would be to pay for a necropsy on Murphy, and if it wasn't poisoning or something YOU did, notify all the puppy buyers, never breed those animals again that made him and pay you what you are out including your flight, GI meds and any other expenses you incurred. I haven't gone to look- but this is one very good reason not to purchase puppies who come from parents w practitioner or absent cardiac clearances. SAS can happen in the best of breedings but why, oh why, do breeders shortcut this particular clearance? I just had 3 done last week. It was $120 for three, and $30 to list on OFA. So $50 per total. And a cardiologist listened.
So0 edit- just went and looked, Zerk is not on their list of 'stud dogs'. But the dam is, and sure enough, she has a practitioner clearance (which I did not go verify actually exists because I am astounded they list 20+- bitches on their site... and three litters just this month... how the heck do they even know their names?).


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## RDelaney0984

Thank you for your condolences. My parents are planning an autopsy with the vet today. As soon as I hung up with my parents, I immediately contacted the breeder (Double B's Double B Golden Retrievers Golden Retriever Puppies For Sale - White English Platinum Cream Goldens Breeder) via phone.

Lee seemed surprised and concerned and I will absolutely pursue all avenues I can for financial reimbursement. I initially told the breeder maybe they can have pick of next litter, but not after reading this forum. I feel worst for my dad. He took Murphy on a walk, and in the middle of it, Murphy let out a yelp and collapsed/died instantly. 

Again, thanks for the condolences. Its truly heartbreaking.


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## Prism Goldens

RDelaney, another thing you can do is list a DOD and suspected COD on k9data, I don't mind inputting your puppy if you will tell me what name you registered him under. At least then, he would be a part of breed history and it would be on record that he died very young and who his parents and breeder were. Maybe scan his registration certificate, or the reg application so I'd have the AKC # and could research siblings as well.


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## RDelaney0984

I really appreciate the assistance Prism Goldens. I live about 10 mins from my parents house and they are really broken up, so I will go over there at some point today to get his papers and post them. Thanks again, you've already been a huge help.


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## RDelaney0984

Double B's Zerk Double B's Cable He was the father


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## RDelaney0984

Dont know why it says Double B's Cable, but link take you to Zerk, the father


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## ArchersMom

Here's Zerk's OFA page. Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

He does appear to have excellent hips. But there's no depth of clearances

Same for the dam http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1560204#animal


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## Prism Goldens

Zerk has (as do all the dogs on his OFA page) only a practitioner cardiac clearance- not sufficient... and it looks like while he does have excellent hips, his sib didn't pass elbows and personally, I believe a depth of clearances and good ratings on elbows and hips are better than a random excellent. I'd rather see a bunch of goods than an excellent w a bunch of fairs for siblings.... Mama too has a sibling who didn't pass elbows... not that that is what killed this puppy. I am betting SAS.


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## KB2020

RDelaney0984 I am so sorry for your loss. This is completely devastating and I am in complete awe that this breeder is continuing to breed their dogs. I can say from my experience being on site at their location that they are a puppy mill and I really hope future buyers see these posts before they purchase from Double B.


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## RDelaney0984

*Thank you for your kind words*

What I don't understand is my mom did some pretty good research. She's no Steve Jobs when it comes to computers/the internet but a lot of great reviews for Double B's Goldens. A+ on the BBB website, great customer reviews. Now I know not everything on the internet is at it seems (as far as reviews, etc.) but now knowing what I know, how do we get these people to stop? I mean if they love dogs as much as they proclaim, they'd stop on that fact alone. 

Too bad we didn't see this site sooner, but it just would have been someone else with Nuke (their name) Murphy (what we named him). They have too many dogs and they breed way too much. Its ridiculous and they need to stop.


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## RDelaney0984

And if it weren't for Robin (Screen name Prism Golden's) I wouldn't know 9/10ths of what all goes into breeding and genetic issues and bad breeding practices, etc. 

So thank you to her and all your nice words to me and my family (and lil Murphster) who will have his Necropsy today. Hopefully, we find out what happened and we can leverage that to put these people in a place where they can never breed another dog.


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## RDelaney0984

Today, Murphy our 3 mo old White (Cream) golden retriever had his necropsy. The vet said his heart and organs looked great. The vet did not go into his brain, but suspected by the suddenness of his death, it was either a stroke or aneurysm. 

I was told by a source (Prism Goldens) she had never heard of a puppy so young dying of a stroke or even an aneurysm. The vet said even if he did go into Murphy's brain he still might not be able to discern COD or see the stroke, etc. Has anyone had a similar experience with a young (3 mo. old) retriever? 

Thank you all once again for your kind works and to Robin (Prism Golden's) you are a very thoughtful and informed breeder, thank you from the bottom of my heart for your assistance throughout this weekend.


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## Prism Goldens

Hopefully someone here has knowledge of such a young puppy stroking? Or suffering an aneurysm? Or other thoughts....


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## jimflint01

*Here are a couple photos of our wonderful dog from them*



Roxydog said:


> Anyone have any recent info about this breeder? I am looking for a cream color golden but must have great health and temperment. Reading about all the health issues of goldens is a bit scary. Any info about this breeder or any other in Colorado would be greatly appreciated.​


Our 3yo male has been the best dog we have ever had. Super mellow, no health issues.


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## DogOwner

I noticed you live in San Diego. Someone started a thread about recommended breeders in southern California. You may want to look at that. It was done in the last few months. 

Also, I hope you write a complaint under the BBB specifying the problem so that there is a record of this.

So sorry for your loss.

Sounds like a puppy mill. And I am equally disgusted with all the dogs that are sold on Craigslist and why this is legal. Too many people breed puppies in hopes that they make money on the side.


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## Coopsmom

deleted - wrong response


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