# Training perfect fronts and finishes



## Loisiana

It seems fronts and finishes are the constant battle every trainer faces in obedience in the fight for keeping every half point. It's fairly simple to teach a dog to come to a general front or finish position, and it's really not too hard to teach them to get "pretty close" to perfect. But it's a whole other matter to get them to learn how to line up perfectly straight and centered every time.

So I thought it would be good for everyone to share what has worked best for them for getting good results. Since I'd say that's the area I spend the most time working on, I'm always looking for new ideas!

I'll start off with the three things that I think have helped my fronts the most:

The first is using dowel sticks. I start by training with the sticks held out in front of me so that the dog has to be in the right position in order to sit between them. Once I think the dog has a decent understanding of front I keep the dowels held against my sides and just shoot one out at the last second if I don't think the dog is lining up right. That way the picture the dog sees as he's coming in is the same one he'll see in the ring, but he knows that dowel can still pop out at any time if he doesn't do it right.

The second is teaching the dog to side step in both directions while in the front position. The difference I saw in fronts once I started teaching this was amazing. It really teaches the dog how to line his rear up with the rest of his body.

And the third is the pvc box. Once a dog understands fronts pretty well I rarely use the box anymore, but every once in a while the dog will be just the slightest bit off and nothing else is precise enough to really straighten him back out besides a really tight fitting box. When a dog gets into one of those ruts I will pull the box back out. Conner really has a problem with this when we're doing articles, he has a tendency to get just the slightest bit of an arch in his spine on fronts for articles, so I often use the box while training articles and just the dowel sticks for the other exercises.

Okay, someone else's turn!


----------



## Megora

> The first is using dowel sticks. I start by training with the sticks held out in front of me so that the dog has to be in the right position in order to sit between them. Once I think the dog has a decent understanding of front I keep the dowels held against my sides and just shoot one out at the last second if I don't think the dog is lining up right. That way the picture the dog sees as he's coming in is the same one he'll see in the ring, but he knows that dowel can still pop out at any time if he doesn't do it right.


I like this! The version I've been using is lining the dowels up on the floor to form a front box or "parking spot" for my guy. 

The other method that people have told me to use is sticking a leg out when the dog is coming in crooked. <- I haven't had much luck with this because I throw myself off balance and my guy still has a crooked butt when he gets in. Ugh. 

My golden doesn't do perfect fronts each and every time. I mean he has the right idea, but if the fronts are lined up by a gate or by something that makes him nervous, he will run on an angle away from the object and doesn't move all the way back into a centered position when he gets to me. So he sits slightly off center. Which drives me nuts.

.... so I'm curious about what everyone else is doing. 

Something I HAVE been doing to help him get perfect fronts _a good portion of the time _is -

1. Hide the treat in a centered area - pinned inside my collar (because I can't stand having dog treats in my mouth). This means he doesn't front to my hands anymore, which is a problem I battled with _all last year_!!!! 

2. Make sure I line up perfectly - a straight line from the dog - for the formal recalls. The judge gives you time to get set up, so might as well make use of it. 

3. I practice scoot fronts all of the time. These teach perfect front position the best, because the dog is already in front position and doesn't have enough room to go crooked. 

**** Something I wish I knew right from the beginning before I taught Jacks how to front.... 

I taught him front with my feet spread apart and the treat in my hands in front.

This set up some bad habits for both of us (me often resorting to spreading my feet to help him find front, him fronting to my hands). I wish I'd taught front using the "parking spot" sticks in front and with my hands flat at my sides. <- It's something I'll probably do with the next puppy.


----------



## Loisiana

I have a problem with Flip and his fronts. He wants to front really close to me. He tries to either stand with his feet on top of my feet or with a foot on both sides of my feet. I tried bending my knees a little as he came to front to prevent him from being able to get so close, but that resulted in him stopping way too far back. I need to find a way to get him to be close but not on top of my feet. Any ideas?


----------



## K9-Design

Well I can't say I have raving success b/c I've seldom been in the spot to drill F&Fs -- usually I have bigger fish to fry! But lately I've been doing lots of them with both guys. With me I can get them lined up straight without props (and Slater isn't keen on dowels or whatevs) and I do a lot of one step back at an angle - find front again. But I also play get-it-game a million times b/c it's great for getting a thousand fronts in a row without the dog getting sick of it.


----------



## kgiff

I have nothing to add since I'm working fronts and finishes with a dog for the first time. But I appreciate all the tips and suggestions. I have learned holding food in one hand or the other or pulling it out of a pocket is a bad idea.


----------



## GoldenSail

The only problem I have with fronts is on the retrieve--doesn't come in close enough. This thread makes me think I should get a box for that. I usually hide food in my mouth for fronts though and reward from there and it seems to do very well for the straight and close fronts.

Finishes are more of a challenge. I have not been using props, but instead rewarding really really good ones with food and making her do it again or readjust if it is not perfect. Again, I wonder if I need to make myself a box. I have never done that before.


----------



## hotel4dogs

My field trainer introduced me to the use of a heeling stick (don't cringe Jodie, he doesn't beat the dog, just very gently taps him, in fact suggested I just use a real light dowel rod or even a small tree branch) to tap Tito lightly on the chest if he comes too far forward on the finish, or to tap his butt if he swings it out a little on the finish.
As far as the front, some people I know practice it sitting down in a chair, with the dog having to front between their spread knees. Don't know if it helps, just commenting I've seen it done by some pretty good trainers.


----------



## Megora

*With the Left Finish...*

This is probably going to sound terrible to positive reinforcement trainers, but I taught the "kick+pop+SWING" to Jack when he was a pupper. It teaches them to jump up and pivot into place when they hear the command. <- _There is one little minor problem and I'll detail that below._

Then when we got to the novice level we just had to connect the dots with the food in the left hand drawing the dog back far enough to come up straight in heel position. 

*The Right Finish...*

I did the treats in both hands thing. So I said "by me", then the right hand draws the dog behind where he is treated, and the left hand draws dog up to sit in the heel position where he is treated. 

The next step was weaning off the treat in back and the left hand movement, and the right hand movement becomes just the acceptible hand signal. 

*- Getting a perfect swing or by me every time?*

Practice, practice, practice.... <- I do them all the time. And I practice both the hand signals and the verbal commands. 

*My problems....* 

With swing, my guy gets too excited and head bumps me as he jump-pivots back in place. It's GREAT having a dog who springs into place and that's why I concentrated on doing the kick-pop-SWING cue so early on. But I don't want to lose points because of my dog being 'uncontrolled'.  

With by-me, sometimes he sits too far back and needs the "scoot-heel" reminder.


----------



## hotel4dogs

we never really worked the swing finish, just because I was lazy.
Now I'm glad we didn't....I use the swing finish in the field, where I don't want him behind my back with a bird (!), and the around finish in the obedience ring. 
It's been helpful because in the field I don't want him to front first, and in obedience I do. It eliminates the confusion.... swing = no sit, around = sit.
Just a thought for anyone planning to do field.


----------



## Maxs Mom

Ok maybe slightly off topic, but Barbs last post made me reflect. I am NEW in rally. I have the maps, I have done a match I have a lot to practice... One of the commands is a return to heel exercise. What I am not remembering is if it specifically says front finish or just return to heel. If it is a return to heel I could have Teddi come around behind me right? For finishes, again the field thinking which is why I started training it, I step back and allow her to follow. In rally I can't move my feet :doh: So if I can bring her around behind.... I need to look at the map and read the instruction again.


----------



## K9-Design

hotel4dogs said:


> we never really worked the swing finish, just because I was lazy.
> Now I'm glad we didn't....I use the swing finish in the field, where I don't want him behind my back with a bird (!), and the around finish in the obedience ring.
> It's been helpful because in the field I don't want him to front first, and in obedience I do. It eliminates the confusion.... swing = no sit, around = sit.
> Just a thought for anyone planning to do field.


I do both L and R finish in obedience (usually L) and automatic L finish in field. No problems. Dogs know the difference.


----------



## IowaGold

Maxs Mom said:


> Ok maybe slightly off topic, but Barbs last post made me reflect. I am NEW in rally. I have the maps, I have done a match I have a lot to practice... One of the commands is a return to heel exercise. What I am not remembering is if it specifically says front finish or just return to heel. If it is a return to heel I could have Teddi come around behind me right? For finishes, again the field thinking which is why I started training it, I step back and allow her to follow. In rally I can't move my feet :doh: So if I can bring her around behind.... I need to look at the map and read the instruction again.


Pretty sure the AKC rally signs specify which finish you are to use ("Call front, finish left" etc). If you plan to do much Rally, you really need to teach both finishes. I shouldn't be a problem using both because in both the Rally ring and the field you can use what ever additional voice commands and signals you need to remind her what you really want.

I also have trained both finishes for obedience. I've had a few issues with auto-finishes esp. in the retrieve exercises, but that's far more because I didn't spend tons of time perfecting fronts/finishes with Ruby than because she didn't understand the difference between the field and the ring.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Tito has a tendency to go into "auto pilot" in the obed. ring. (read that as, not paying attention), which is why it's a minor concern. Although on the moving stand, you go directly to heel and it's never been a problem...


----------



## Ranger

Hmm, great advice! Ranger knows his around finish and his left finish down pat (sometimes a little slow on the around) and I _thought _I had the fronts good to go. He was sitting straight, and right in front of me no matter where I had my hands.

Then something happened in that little brain of his...and now when I say front when he's in heel position, he walks diagonally in front of me, turns left, and comes back in to "front" position. He does a mini figure 8. Oh, and he sometimes pushes his nose at my pants (crotch level) as if to say, "there!".

No idea how or why this happened. We did a perfect front on a friday, did nothing for a week, then he started doing this the next time I asked for a "front". I'm not too concerned - it's not as if I show him, but I thought it was interesting and weird. Maybe I'll try the dowel sticks and teach it under a new command.


----------



## Loisiana

hotel4dogs said:


> (don't cringe Jodie, he doesn't beat the dog, just very gently taps him, in fact suggested I just use a real light dowel rod or even a small tree branch)


Oh I don't normally have a problem with heeling sticks, I've given Flip some pops on the butt with one before. The problem I had mentioned before was literally beating the dog over and over with one in order to make the dog submit.

Conner's never had any problem mixing up the auto finish from field with fronting first in obedience, but he spent several years working obedience before we started the field work so his automatic response is to go to front first, and anytime I want him to go straight to heel I'll put my arm out at my side as a cue. The only time I've seen Flip get confused is if I'm doing obedience work with him while he's wearing the e-collar. He associates the ecollar with going straight to heel. But after I remind him once or twice he remembers to go to front first.


----------



## Loisiana

I've never taught any of my previous dogs a flip finish, but since I have a dog that loves to jump and his name is FLIP I figure I've got to teach him to do a flip finish! But I need some help, I'm not doing something right. I can get him to jump up, but then he turns out away from me to get to heel position instead of turning into me. I need to figure out how to teach him to turn into me consistently. How do you teach a flip finish?


----------



## hollyk

Loisiana said:


> Conner's never had any problem mixing up the auto finish from field with fronting first in obedience, but he spent several years working obedience before we started the field work so his automatic response is to go to front first, and anytime I want him to go straight to heel I'll put my arm out at my side as a cue.


Ah.....when I have watched obedience people/dogs work field I have noticed them holding their left arm out a bit on the return. They must be signaling the finish.


----------



## FlyingQuizini

Loisiana said:


> I've never taught any of my previous dogs a flip finish, but since I have a dog that loves to jump and his name is FLIP I figure I've got to teach him to do a flip finish! But I need some help, I'm not doing something right. I can get him to jump up, but then he turns out away from me to get to heel position instead of turning into me. I need to figure out how to teach him to turn into me consistently. How do you teach a flip finish?


I break it down and lure.

I use the verbal cue "Get Ready!" and initially pair with a hand signal on my left side.

Pt. one teaches the dog to jump up and get the cookie or toy when I do the first part of the signal -- my hand out and up at the left side. I'll pair this with the "get" part of "get ready".

Pt. two is me luring the dog the direction I want him to travel (counter clockwise) to come around and sit at heel.

Once the dog knows it reliably when I use either the verbal or the hand signal, I'll often practice just the "get" part to maintain the height in the initial leap.

It's worked really well for us. We're generally looking eye-to-eye on the leap!


----------



## Megora

Loisiana said:


> I've never taught any of my previous dogs a flip finish, but since I have a dog that loves to jump and his name is FLIP I figure I've got to teach him to do a flip finish! But I need some help, I'm not doing something right. I can get him to jump up, but then he turns out away from me to get to heel position instead of turning into me. I need to figure out how to teach him to turn into me consistently. How do you teach a flip finish?


Teach it on leash first and guide him into place. It should be something he figures out within a week or two, so you can ditch the leash. The other thing is to make sure he's going far enough back behind you so he has room to turn around and come up in heel position.

My instructor from last year said to take it apart and practice each part of the swing before putting it together. The way she taught the swings was treat in the left hand and sweeping hand and left foot back and treating the dog all the way behind you. And doing this seperate from the complete swing which is drawing the dog back up into heel position before treating.


----------



## kgiff

Steph, I love that picture! I have a very bouncy dog, but I don't have a jump/flip finish on him. His right finish is much more precise and is quicker than the left. Maybe I'll have to work on that...

For field I never have 'em front. I tell them heel as they're coming back, and have them sit at my left side. Am I setting myself up for issues in the future? Either in field or obedience?


----------



## Ranger

Love that pic!


----------



## hotel4dogs

cool photo Steph!!!


----------



## Loisiana

You know, I know all this in my head, but when it comes to actually doing it I just haven't been able to get it right. I'll have to play around with it some more and maybe put a leash on to help prevent the wrong direction turn.



FlyingQuizini said:


> I break it down and lure.
> 
> I use the verbal cue "Get Ready!" and initially pair with a hand signal on my left side.
> 
> Pt. one teaches the dog to jump up and get the cookie or toy when I do the first part of the signal -- my hand out and up at the left side. I'll pair this with the "get" part of "get ready".
> 
> Pt. two is me luring the dog the direction I want him to travel (counter clockwise) to come around and sit at heel.
> 
> Once the dog knows it reliably when I use either the verbal or the hand signal, I'll often practice just the "get" part to maintain the height in the initial leap.
> 
> It's worked really well for us. We're generally looking eye-to-eye on the leap!


----------



## FlyingQuizini

kgiff said:


> Steph, I love that picture! I have a very bouncy dog, but I don't have a jump/flip finish on him. His right finish is much more precise and is quicker than the left. Maybe I'll have to work on that...
> 
> For field I never have 'em front. I tell them heel as they're coming back, and have them sit at my left side. Am I setting myself up for issues in the future? Either in field or obedience?


Thanks!

I did a little bit of field with him (JH) and never had a problem. As he was coming in, I just paired the verbal "get ready" with my left arm out to the side and he came right into the finish w/o the leap. I also use "get ready" + arm when we're play retrieving in the park.

In obedience, on a recall to front I use "front". On the DOR I use "come" for the first part and "front" for after the drop. On the dumbbell I back-chained it, so he's really solid on knowing to retrieve to front. I've never had an anticipation problem on finishes in obedience. (And I'll bow down to the obedience Gods right now, having just said that.... )

The set up seems to be different enough that he understands.

I've actually generalized "get ready" to mean, "QUICK!! Get thee to a sit on my left side ASAP!" and we work on it from all angles, positions, distances, etc. The leap part only happens on a get ready from a front -- or rather, it's most prevalent from that set up. Get Readies from other positions are sorta leapy.


----------



## K9-Design

I taught Slater a flip finish by using "touch." "Touch" as in, touch your nose to my palm. Gradually do "touch" on your left hand until you can hold it at shoulder level with your arm leaning back behind you. Dog has to jump to "touch"...at first as soon as he landed I would take a step forward and to the right and say "Up here" (our "get ready" like Stephanie explained) to get him to turn into heel position. I did the same for him on a right finish.

Secondly, I use a lot of fronts in field work -- not in marking situations but in yard drills. I send to the back pile remote just as often from my side so if I receive the dog in a front I don't have to mess with him to get his back to the pile again.

When I went to Mike Lardy's transition seminar a few years ago, it was AMAZING how many dogs had a huge hangup with insisting on going to heel. A front finish is part of his obedience & drills routine and many dogs at the seminar hit a major road block with it. From then on out I have done fronts in field drills regularly. 

Having said that in the actual field when we are doing marks & blinds it is always an automatic finish to the left.

Excuse the brag but I got Slater to stop on the whistle going to the back pile for the first time last night, without a check cord. He did it three times. Cute little guy!!!!


----------



## Megora

> Having said that in the actual field when we are doing marks & blinds it is always an automatic finish to the left.


Going by this... I'm thinking that if you are doing both field and obedience, you'd want to use a different call besides "front" or "come"...? 

The way we trained come and front -

"Come" = dogs comes back to you but doesn't need to sit or anything. And I deliberately turn my knees so my guy has a different sight picture from the front. 

And I know that later on I will be using the "come" call for the drop exercise. 

"Front" = dogs comes back to sit within reach in front, centered, and looking up. 

To keep the dog from anticipating the finishes, they are practiced seperate from the recalls (even though dogs get ring wise). 

ETA - I learned something new today. I always assumed that field recalls were the same as obedience ones and the dog is supposed to sit in front with the object.


----------



## Loisiana

I teach dogs to read my body language to know where to go, not so much the command. If both arms are hanging by my sides, and I'm looking down at the space in front of me, the dog goes to front. If I swing an arm out to the left and then bring it to my waist and am looking slightly to the left the dog goes to heel. I have my dogs do both in field and obedience and they learn to look at how I am standing to figure out where to go.


----------



## kgiff

Thank everyone! This is very insightful for a newbie to both field and obedience. I do usually swing my arm out to the left when I want the automatic finish in field. But actually using "front" for the command in obedience is a really good idea. Because "come" doesn't necessarily imply I need a front from him and I was relying completely on body language/situational awareness from him to figure out what to do when.


----------



## RedDogs

This post has gone in a few different ways, back to the original:
- I love working on fronts and finishes. Those are some of our strongest behaviors.
- Fronts: My early (and regular) training emphasizes "straight" over the "sit". We do a lot of repetitions and variations where I am reinforcing a close-straight dog. 
- Finishes: L is taught with a pivot box (or whatever they're called), this helps the finish, but also the understanding of heel position, moving the back end for L turns and U turns and figure 8. If a flip type finish is desired we can add some more of that in after we get this strong preference for getting into position and moving the hind end. R finish is done with back chaining. Our finishes are on both verbal or visual cue and all four variations are on very good stimulus control. I maybe get 1 miss/anticipation per 100+ responses. 
-Context, props and cues all vary for field/obed. Not that we've done a lot of either, but most of the time, I think that thinking about it is harder for the people than the dogs!
- We tend to practice only one behavior per session until behaviors are perfected and it's time to work on chains. I don't worry about anticipation, and really almost want it. Way easier if the dog is knowing for sure what's next than if I "keep him guessing." And if he's moving too early...we go back to work on stimulus control for that piece.


----------

