# Thoughts on Command Discrimination



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Training open signals + watching people working on utility signals - one of the things I see people working on is attention and doing a signal that the dog can see + which doesn't resemble the down signal.

For dogs with a slow sit - the people I train with recommend sit drills where you are popping treat rewards UP after the dog sits. This encourages them to pop up faster in case there's a treat to catch.


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## Oceanside (Mar 29, 2021)

This is an outside perspective since I’m not an obedience person, but given that sit is one of the most practiced commands ever, it seems crazy to me to use a separate command for the down to sit. I could understand doing so for a dog that has a lot of trouble with a down to sit for whatever reason, but as a blanket rule, it seems like an easy way to fail. Just my amateur two cents 🤷‍♂️


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

My commands are the same. I use sit, down, and stand. My girl loves it. I don’t know how she does it but she jumps into a sit without her butt ever leaving the floor. My recommendation is to take your time teaching it. It can be difficult for some dogs to grasp the concept.

I use the same signals for utility. Sit is raising my right hand up while my elbow stays at my side. Down is my hand raised all the way up. Stand is my hand across the front of my body. Make sure your signals all look very different. My signal for recall is the only signal that I use my left hand for. I don’t know that it makes a difference… just how it worked out for us. 

I use the same word for anytime I expect a certain position. No matter what that exercise is, down means down. Some people swear by using different words like drop or push. (Push typically requires different mechanics than sit.) 

I could be wrong……but my dogs have never even lost a single point on command discrimination in Open A.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

When we fail Open, it is most often because of CD. I've tried doing signals only, command only different commands for down to sit vs stand to sit. I've tried breaking it down to its parts and doing a single position change multiple times in a row with me at various distances, with a high-value reward for every successful rep. None of it has improved his attitude in the ring towards this exercise. It is a major downer for him. Pinyon finished his OTCH in February. At a trial this weekend, he NQ'd Open on CD. He needed a second command on BOTH changes of position. 

I think people get superstitious about this exercise. If something works for them a time or two, that "something" must be the key to the dog's "getting it." I think dogs fail this exercise for the same reason they so often fail Utility signals. They are in an environment with strange people all around, There is motion and sound all around. Their biggest source of security is walking away from them. They are worried. They freeze. I don't think most of them ever get used to it. To make it more difficult, in the B classes, the pattern is unpredictable. 

Early in Pnyon's OB career, I found that going through the day's pattern once, in an upbeat fashion as part of the warm-up routine tended to help him, but it was far from a cure-all. I did not do that this weekend. (Too confident.) I think CD is a little like heeling. You must reinforce each part (each change of position) separately and frequently for as long as you show. You should only rarely put the pieces together in training. In the ring, if the dog does fail a change of position, I wouldn't respond by giving a sterner command. Just remind them want you wanted and act happy when they do it. The angrier you act, the more worried the dog will be the next time.


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## GrandmaToGoldens (Jul 2, 2019)

I think the Australian change of position (CDX) and signal exercise (UD) probably parallel your command discrimination. Based on that, there is one other thing to consider:
What do you do when your dog breaks a down stay by sitting up or a sit stay by lying down?
If you verbally correct your dog or walk back to physically reposition your dog, that may create uncertainty about changes of position, particularly in a context where you’re standing some distance away facing your dog. I prefer to catch my dog before she changes position and reinforce the position with a neutral command. 

My method of consolidating change of position and signal exercises is to practice varied strings of position changes, and vary the distance as well as the reward... sometimes not rewarding, sometimes verbally rewarding, sometimes going back to reward then stepping out again to continue the string, sometimes going back to to reward then finishing the exercise and sometimes jackpot rewarding after leaving the training area. I don’t want my dog to expect a specific response from me, because the lack of that response could become a stressor in competition.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

goldenlover41 said:


> This is an outside perspective since I’m not an obedience person, but given that sit is one of the most practiced commands ever, it seems crazy to me to use a separate command for the down to sit. I could understand doing so for a dog that has a lot of trouble with a down to sit for whatever reason, but as a blanket rule, it seems like an easy way to fail. Just my amateur two cents 🤷‍♂️


The reasoning is that some trainers want the dog to do a different action than a normal stand to sit, which is a tuck-up sit. Some trainers assume that a command means an action, whereas others assume it means a position. In this exercise (for Open A), the dog starts in a stand in heel position, the handler walks 15-ft away and gives the down command/signal. Then the handler walks another 15-ft and gives the sit command/signal. The dog is not supposed to leave its original spot. No creeping forward, no steps, etc. To keep from getting points off, some people teach their dogs to push their front feet up and keep their butt in place when changing from down to sit so that there is no way they creeped forward and therefore, no points off. That type of change has different mechanics than if they keep their front feet locked in place and do a tuck-up sit, so some people give it a different word. Make sense?


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

DevWind said:


> My commands are the same. I use sit, down, and stand. My girl loves it. I don’t know how she does it but she jumps into a sit without her butt ever leaving the floor. My recommendation is to take your time teaching it. It can be difficult for some dogs to grasp the concept.
> 
> I use the same signals for utility. Sit is raising my right hand up while my elbow stays at my side. Down is my hand raised all the way up. Stand is my hand across the front of my body. Make sure your signals all look very different. My signal for recall is the only signal that I use my left hand for. I don’t know that it makes a difference… just how it worked out for us.
> 
> ...


You were at the seminar, so you know of whom I speak. LOL Since I hadn’t started teaching it yet back then, I did start working on the “push” type of sit. She was doing really great until we did a proofing exercise in class last week. All of the dogs were lined up in Novice Stay style, except we went out and did CD instead. The down was perfect. When I asked for the sit, she just stared like I was an alien or something. LOL In fairness, I hadn’t actually worked up to that distance yet, so she wasn’t really ready for it.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

PalouseDogs said:


> When we fail Open, it is most often because of CD. I've tried doing signals only, command only different commands for down to sit vs stand to sit. I've tried breaking it down to its parts and doing a single position change multiple times in a row with me at various distances, with a high-value reward for every successful rep. None of it has improved his attitude in the ring towards this exercise. It is a major downer for him. Pinyon finished his OTCH in February. At a trial this weekend, he NQ'd Open on CD. He needed a second command on BOTH changes of position.
> 
> I think people get superstitious about this exercise. If something works for them a time or two, that "something" must be the key to the dog's "getting it." I think dogs fail this exercise for the same reason they so often fail Utility signals. They are in an environment with strange people all around, There is motion and sound all around. Their biggest source of security is walking away from them. They are worried. They freeze. I don't think most of them ever get used to it. To make it more difficult, in the B classes, the pattern is unpredictable.
> 
> Early in Pnyon's OB career, I found that going through the day's pattern once, in an upbeat fashion as part of the warm-up routine tended to help him, but it was far from a cure-all. I did not do that this weekend. (Too confident.) I think CD is a little like heeling. You must reinforce each part (each change of position) separately and frequently for as long as you show. You should only rarely put the pieces together in training. In the ring, if the dog does fail a change of position, I wouldn't respond by giving a sterner command. Just remind them want you wanted and act happy when they do it. The angrier you act, the more worried the dog will be the next time.


Thank you, Kelly! And congrats on your OTCH!!! 

I don’t typically do sterner commands with this one. If she doesn’t do it on the first one, I give her one repeat and that’s it. If she still doesn’t do it, we release and start over or do something else and come back later. For her, a refusal is _generally_ a lack of understanding. She’s very confident and intuitive, good at putting pieces together. 

The proofing exercise we did in class last week showed me the holes that need to be filled, but we have time. Still have to get that Novice title anyway. I am just trying to get her trained mostly through Open before trialing so that we can move straight to Open by the end of the summer. 



GrandmaToGoldens said:


> I think the Australian change of position (CDX) and signal exercise (UD) probably parallel your command discrimination. Based on that, there is one other thing to consider:
> What do you do when your dog breaks a down stay by sitting up or a sit stay by lying down?
> If you verbally correct your dog or walk back to physically reposition your dog, that may create uncertainty about changes of position, particularly in a context where you’re standing some distance away facing your dog. I prefer to catch my dog before she changes position and reinforce the position with a neutral command.
> 
> My method of consolidating change of position and signal exercises is to practice varied strings of position changes, and vary the distance as well as the reward... sometimes not rewarding, sometimes verbally rewarding, sometimes going back to reward then stepping out again to continue the string, sometimes going back to to reward then finishing the exercise and sometimes jackpot rewarding after leaving the training area. I don’t want my dog to expect a specific response from me, because the lack of that response could become a stressor in competition.


Thank you, great tips! 

We did some quick little drills in my kitchen/dining room this morning. I changed the word to “sit” with the same signal as before and she did the same motion as “pushup“, but did seem to understand better. So for her, it seems that commands mean a position, not an action. Distance was short, but I slowly creeped back a few inches at a time. Even got in a few successful signals without the verbal, so we’re making progress. Rewards were pretty frequent, but also a little random. Also played a game where I toss treats to one side or the other and ask for either a sit or a down after she runs to get the food - the point was to work on quick (and correct) response. The tossed treat is the reward for proper response, then you ask for something else right after. This went really well and she had fun, which is the important part. 

I just wanted to get y’all’s thoughts on changing the word or not since we talked about it at length this past weekend and it seems people are pretty split on the subject.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

ArkansasGold said:


> You were at the seminar, so you know of whom I speak. LOL Since I hadn’t started teaching it yet back then, I did start working on the “push” type of sit. She was doing really great until we did a proofing exercise in class last week. All of the dogs were lined up in Novice Stay style, except we went out and did CD instead. The down was perfect. When I asked for the sit, she just stared like I was an alien or something. LOL In fairness, I hadn’t actually worked up to that distance yet, so she wasn’t really ready for it.


Yes….I do know! I think there’s different ideas of what “No forward motion” looks like. Mine isn’t the same as his. He wants the front paws to never move. I don’t care as long as there’s no taking a step. I’ve taken my way into B class and haven’t lost points. Could I? Possibly. Mine might not be as pretty but it’s reliable.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> You were at the seminar, so you know of whom I speak. LOL Since I hadn’t started teaching it yet back then, I did start working on the “push” type of sit. She was doing really great until we did a proofing exercise in class last week. All of the dogs were lined up in Novice Stay style, except we went out and did CD instead. The down was perfect. When I asked for the sit, she just stared like I was an alien or something. LOL In fairness, I hadn’t actually worked up to that distance yet, so she wasn’t really ready for it.


Right before obedience class was canceled for us, Logan was doing a little creep forward — which he hadn’t been doing. I was getting into trouble for that. We were told to just use the same command we always do. I was told I had moved him along more quickly than I should have and to go back to right in front of him and to slowly increase my distance away.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Definitely take it slow. A platform can also help them know not to come closer. I think I used a jump bar on the floor as a boundary. Just remember that what works for your instructor or anyone else might not work for you and your dog. Don’t be afraid to deviate from their ideas.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

diane0905 said:


> Right before obedience class was canceled for us, Logan was doing a little creep forward — which he hadn’t been doing. I was getting into trouble for that. We were told to just use the same command we always do. I was told I had moved him along more quickly than I should have and to go back to right in front of him and to slowly increase my distance away.


Most of the dogs that NQ’d just refused to do the position change. A tiny bit of creeping is just points off as far as I know. Not a good habit to allow and I agree with decreasing the distance and going back a few steps.

Like @DevWind just said, you can use a jump bar as a barrier to help with muscle memory and understanding. We actually did that in class early on. Logan is smart, he’ll get it!


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

ArkansasGold said:


> Most of the dogs that NQ’d just refused to do the position change. A tiny bit of creeping is just points off as far as I know. Not a good habit to allow and I agree with decreasing the distance and going back a few steps.
> 
> Like @DevWind just said, you can use a jump bar as a barrier to help with muscle memory and understanding. We actually did that in class early on. Logan is smart, he’ll get it!


He will definitely get it! It's a frustrating exercise to teach.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> All of the dogs were lined up in Novice Stay style, except we went out and did CD instead.


That's how we practiced at the other place I've trained at, but literally am wondering at this moment if that can be part of the issue.

If the dogs are in a stay line up - they may be confused about what they are doing - especially if they have rock solid comprehension of doing sits and downs stays but are still learning open signals.

Where I train currently (going to class actually in about a couple hours) - we spread out so the sight picture for the dog is not the same as it would be with group stays. And we generally practice signals and recalls together (signals followed by drop on recall practice) because some people were thinking that was breaking some dog brains (dogs were doing the signals but failing the DOR).


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Megora said:


> That's how we practiced at the other place I've trained at, but literally am wondering at this moment if that can be part of the issue.
> 
> If the dogs are in a stay line up - they may be confused about what they are doing - especially if they have rock solid comprehension of doing sits and downs stays but are still learning open signals.
> 
> Where I train currently (going to class actually in about a couple hours) - we spread out so the sight picture for the dog is not the same as it would be with group stays. And we generally practice signals and recalls together (signals followed by drop on recall practice) because some people were thinking that was breaking some dog brains (dogs were doing the signals but failing the DOR).


We usually do stuff one at a time, and we have only done that proofing drill once. But you may be on to something there. They were spread out more than 6-ft and there were only 4 dogs in class that day, but they all failed at the 30-ft distance. The point was to add distraction since most trial locations have multiple rings running at the same time. So in a real trial situation they could be hearing commands from other people in the next ring, instructions from multiple judges, etc.

We also did a fun drill where we had two lanes set up with a fence in between. You couldn’t see through the fence, except at the gaps in panels. In one lane someone was doing a retrieve and the other was the recall lane. We had specific instructions on timing our throws so that the recall dog was committed to the recall when dumbbell was thrown. Another possible scenario in a real trial. Eevee did the recall, but had to think really hard about not going after the dumbbell and her front was really crooked 😆 Now I know what we need to work on as far as proofing goes.


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