# Possible breeder???



## Red22 (Jul 12, 2009)

I am back in the puppy search, I was on a waiting list and just heard that the dam is not pregnant  So I'm back in the search. Do you all see any red flags with this breeder?

Emerald Acres Golden Retrievers and Yorkies

I had contacted this breeder last year when I began my search, but unfortunately got rid of all the info I had when I decided on the other breeder. I just want to make sure y'all don't see any red flags! I feel like I'm starting from scratch again and want to make sure I'm not missing something important! I really appreciate all the help you guys have given in steering me in the right direction in the past!


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## dunevlinj (Feb 2, 2009)

I would go elsewhere. The first red flag to me is breeding Goldens AND Yorkies. I know there are a few, well-established breeders who manage to pull that off. But breeding one kind of dog is time consuming enough, without throwing another breed in to manage.
I see missing clearances on many of her dogs, and it looks like the only titled dogs are direct descendants of Kirby. Also, on K9 data, she has her daughter listed as a co-breeder. I don't know how old the daughter is, but something about that feels wrong.
Whenever someone makes the statement that they do ALL clearances, but then I can't find them easily, that is a red flag to me. Yes, I know it costs money to send them all in. And I know it takes time, and paperwork is a pain in the butt. But those who are serious about breeding do these things because it is necessary, and important.
To me, this breeder looks like an upgraded BYB. Just IMO


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## eeneymeanymineymo (Oct 5, 2009)

Red22: ask for hardcopy eye reports that are dated within 12 months of the breeding - they may have not sent them in yet. Both sire & dam of the litter seem to have all clearances except the sire does not have an OFA heart but they claim on the website that he is normal and the outdated eye clearances on both sire & dam. Ask why these have not been sent in and see what the response is. 

They claim to be GRCA members and I don't have a problem with the breeder having another breed (many golden retriever breeders do have a second breed that they show) but you need to make an appointment with this breeder after talking with them and see how the puppies are raised, the conditions and if you feel comfortable with them. See the updated reports and then decide after meeting the sire & dam if YOU feel a puppy from them would be a good choice. 

Good luck!


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Everything looks good but I would make sure to see the updated clearances for the eyes and hearts. On their website it claims they get their tests done every year so they may not have sent them. In looking at k9data.com it shows for Buzz (dad) eye cerf 10/17/10. Not sure how to read the heart. But the Mom is showing outdated. See how the pups are raised.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

dunevlinj said:


> I would go elsewhere. The first red flag to me is breeding Goldens AND Yorkies. I know there are a few, well-established breeders who manage to pull that off. But breeding one kind of dog is time consuming enough, without throwing another breed in to manage.


Many reputable breeders have more than one breed.... now we are not talking six or eight breeds but I know many reputable breeders with more than one breed and that as a standard tells you nothing. Here we have flat coated retrievers and golden retrievers.... I have friends with flat coats and beagles and others who have wolfhounds and pbgv they are showing and active wtih both breeds. To declare that someone is irresponsible or a byb simply for having two breeds is really inappropriate. 

I would suggest judging the breeder on their merits... do they have clearances, are they showing or competing with their dogs. Why are they breeding the dogs they have... etc etc etc and not simply whether they have 2 breeds. 

s


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## Red22 (Jul 12, 2009)

Thank you guys! As usual your advice has been very helpful! I will definitely ask more questions!


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

Neither the sire or dam have any titles to their name, and the sire especially does nto have any Champions in his line either. However it does look like they do the minimum health clearances. 

Where are you located again?


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## Champ (Jun 10, 2006)

I don't really know that much about breeding, but I got my boy Champ from Emeralds goldens. I was only about 10 years old when I got him as a puppy, but judging by my boy's overall health and disposition, she seems like a pretty good breeder. I do vaguely remember my experience there. The breeder asked what we look for in a puppy and helped us choose one right for us. We stayed there for a while and played with the puppies, and she sent us home with a booklet of papers. The parents' health clearances were included in the papers, and there were also some directions included to help with properly feeding, bathing etc the puppy. She also encourages you to stay in touch and send pictures as the pup grows up.  She will certainly help you out if you have any questions after you take the puppy home. She also really stresses keeping your dog fit and she helped us be able to tell what the dog's hips/belly should look like to be at a healthy weight. I didn't get to meet the sire (Am Ch Emeralds california dream) as he was at a show at the time but I met the dam who seemed to be very calm, which is where I think my boy got his calm personality from. My boy Champ turned out to be a very intelligent, easily trainable guy. He's also very friendly and LOVES kids, the typical golden disposition


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## dunevlinj (Feb 2, 2009)

Shalva,
I am sorry to have offended you. But I did not declare anything or make the broad generalization which you suggest. It was strictly my humble opinion.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

dunevlinj said:


> I would go elsewhere. The first red flag to me is breeding Goldens AND Yorkies. I know there are a few, well-established breeders who manage to pull that off. But breeding one kind of dog is time consuming enough, without throwing another breed in to manage.



Actually there are many good, reputable, responsible breeders who are involved with more than one breed. 



dunevlinj said:


> I see missing clearances on many of her dogs, and it looks like the only titled dogs are direct descendants of Kirby. Also, on K9 data, she has her daughter listed as a co-breeder. I don't know how old the daughter is, but something about that feels wrong.


Seeing as they have three direct decedents of Kirby who have finished their CH I think that show they do have some involvement other than just breeding. And why should the fact that their daughter is listed as a co-breeder feel wrong? It clearly states on the home page that there daughter wanted a Golden so the got a Sammy grand daughter back in 1979.



dunevlinj said:


> Whenever someone makes the statement that they do ALL clearances, but then I can't find them easily, that is a red flag to me. Yes, I know it costs money to send them all in. And I know it takes time, and paperwork is a pain in the butt. But those who are serious about breeding do these things because it is necessary, and important.


Ideally you would like to see all clearances sent in but it does not mean they have not been done. I would ask the breeder to show them to you. Also I would discuss al the new info on pigmentary uveitis. There are a lot of long time responsible breeders who were not sending in all the clearances, hopefully we will see a dramatic change in that practice over the next year. 



dunevlinj said:


> To me, this breeder looks like an upgraded BYB. Just IMO


From where I am sitting, this breeder appears much better than this. JMHO.


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## Champ (Jun 10, 2006)

I didn't see the part about Pat looking like an upgraded BYB until now. But I do agree with AmbikaGR. I got my boy from there, and she seems far from a BYB judging by my experience with her. She has some dogs involved with showing, and looks like the sire and dam have their clearances on the OFA website. If they are not as up to date as they should be, ask Pat for them


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## Red22 (Jul 12, 2009)

Thank you all again. Should I be concerned that when I asked about her policy about visiting the pups - she said that her "facility is closed once the pups are born". This doesn't sit well with me - the last breeder I worked with encouraged everyone to come by and visit. Though it does make me feel better to hear Champs experience with this breeder.

Essjay- I am about an hour and a half north of Los Angeles.


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## Champ (Jun 10, 2006)

Red22 said:


> Thank you all again. Should I be concerned that when I asked about her policy about visiting the pups - she said that her "facility is closed once the pups are born". This doesn't sit well with me - the last breeder I worked with encouraged everyone to come by and visit. Though it does make me feel better to hear Champs experience with this breeder.
> 
> Essjay- I am about an hour and a half north of Los Angeles.


Hmm I could see why that would worry you. When I got Champ I didn't have a deposit on him from the time he was born or anything, so when I went to their home to meet with the pups I was able to take him home the same day since he was already 9 weeks old. Since she allows visits when they are old enough to to go home, it's possible she's just thinking about the puppies' safety. (I read online that some breeders don't allow it because people's clothing can carry parvo, etc [2nd paragraph under "choosing a labrador puppy": http://www.labradorhandbook.com/labrador-retriever-breeders/). But maybe someone who knows a bit more about the subject can answer your question better.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Red22 said:


> Thank you all again. Should I be concerned that when I asked about her policy about visiting the pups - she said that her "facility is closed once the pups are born". This doesn't sit well with me - the last breeder I worked with encouraged everyone to come by and visit.


Personally, it's very important to me to go and meet a litter at least once, hands on, before picking a pup. And, if it can work out, I'd prefer to have that day and the actual pickup day be different (so I can leave and objectively evaluate things in my head instead of in the presence of sanity-altering GR puppies).

However, this rule, while it would be a big problem for me, does not automatically mean something shady is going on. Visitors can bring in illnesses with them, and puppies' lives can be put in jeopardy. It may simply be that the breeder is being careful.

I once had Lysol sprayed on my shoes and pants by a breeder before I could come into the house, and then I had to scrub my hands like a surgeon before I interacted with the litter. That seems like a good compromise to me.


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## dunevlinj (Feb 2, 2009)

Again, I apologize for offending anyone with what I posted. I should not have used the term "upgraded BYB", that was harsh and not exactly what I meant to say. The things that strike me as red flags may be different from what strike others as red flags. It is ok with me if others have different or more informed opinions. I will be more careful in the future with what I post. Sorry.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Red22 said:


> Thank you all again. Should I be concerned that when I asked about her policy about visiting the pups - she said that her "facility is closed once the pups are born". This doesn't sit well with me - the last breeder I worked with encouraged everyone to come by and visit. Though it does make me feel better to hear Champs experience with this breeder.
> 
> Essjay- I am about an hour and a half north of Los Angeles.



This policy is VERY common with most breeders. I did not allow anyone to visit the pups till they were 4-5 weeks old, and that is for the safety of the pups. While that is not what is posted above it is likely that this is similar to Emerald's policy. I know of cases where entire litters died because they were exposed to various illnesses very young. I would ask the breeder to clarify as to when it will be okay to visit.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> This policy is VERY common with most breeders. I did not allow anyone to visit the pups till they were 4-5 weeks old, and that is for the safety of the pups. While that is not what is posted above it is likely that this is similar to Emerald's policy. I know of cases where entire litters died because they were exposed to various illnesses very young. I would ask the breeder to clarify as to when it will be okay to visit.


Right. It's especially understandable if she opens things back up by 5 weeks and allows limited visiting so you can see the litter. That would give you a good balance between safety and allowing buyers to see the pups in situ.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

3 weeks before birth and 3 weeks after birth are very critical times in terms of germs having a negative effect particularly herpesvirus. When pups are first born, they cannot thermoregulate. They are unable to thermoregulate until about 3 weeks of age. That means if they are exposed to bad germs, they cannot mount a fever response to fight it. That makes them more susceptible to potentially dying from the bad germs they are exposed to. I never let people see my pups before then... and honestly, I think they really get their personalities after 5 weeks.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

dunevlinj said:


> Again, I apologize for offending anyone with what I posted. I should not have used the term "upgraded BYB", that was harsh and not exactly what I meant to say. The things that strike me as red flags may be different from what strike others as red flags. It is ok with me if others have different or more informed opinions. I will be more careful in the future with what I post. Sorry.


I wouldn't be so apologetic... I dislike seeing more than one breed as well. I realize that there are people out there who may have the time management skills to handle that many animals for effective breeding programs for both breeds... but, its that much harder. I generally feel wary of breeders with multiple programs but take them on a case by case basis. Its a huge red flag for me as well but I don't dismiss a breeder outright because of it.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I have 3 breeds. I let people see puppies pretty nearly immediately. :uhoh:


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

Red22, North of LA. How far are you willing to travel? Contact KellyH, or search her last few posts/threads. I think her pup was just born a few weeks ago and she mentioned that there was 1 puppy left in the litter and I believe she is from LA area. I can't remember the name of the breeder off the top of my head. 

One breeder that comes to mind in California is Birnam Wood. Maybe make a new thread with the title "Breeder in California", and others from the area will chime in.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

dunevlinj said:


> Again, I apologize for offending anyone with what I posted. I should not have used the term "upgraded BYB", that was harsh and not exactly what I meant to say. The things that strike me as red flags may be different from what strike others as red flags. It is ok with me if others have different or more informed opinions. I will be more careful in the future with what I post. Sorry.



I see no need for an apology, nor do I see where you offended anyone. You gave your opinions. I and others gave ours. People on this forum will definitely having differing opinions at times. That is what makes this place valuable in my opinion, a great place to exchange experiences and opinions and for everyone to gain from them. I can not tell you how much this group has taught me. I always feel I get much more from here than I ever give.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I don't think there's anything wrong with this breeder (assuming all clearances are updated) but there's nothing spectacular about the breeding on the website - which I assume is the one you're looking at. But, you could definitely do a lot worse. The reason I would keep looking is that I don't like breedings with multiple generations of untitled dogs (as appears to be the case here, at least on the sire's side and the dam's dam's side, although the dam's sire is titled). It still makes me wonder why they're breeding these two if they're (presumably) not competing with the dogs being bred. Something to think about, since she obviously shows some of her dogs in conformation. Maybe she thinks Buzz won't be competitive in AKC shows, who knows. It couldn't hurt to ask.

To piggyback on what eeSJay said though, there are a lot of good breeders in the LA area. I even know of two breedings right now that I've heard of in the past couple of weeks. Not sure if puppies are available, but it's worth a shot. PM me if you are still looking and I can send you contact info.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I don't let anyone come in until 4 weeks after the pups are born.... the last three weeks of pregnancy and first month are out for me. Nobody comes in except me or my husband... my dogs don't go anywhere and nobody shows... Once four weeks comes around all bets are off and I want everyone to come and visit and I ask people to come and visit. 

We have two breeds here and are bringing in a third breed but we are considering doing a breed switch... We have 8 total dogs. My Flat coat lines are currently at a standstill and we have no flat coats being bred, my girl will eventually be spayed but medically we can't do that right now upon advice from our vet. Our golden lines are active and being worked with... but even with those we have two intact girls and one intact boy. When we thought about bringing in another breed we decided that with our flat coat lines at a standstill if we were ever going to even consider a breed switch that now would be the time to do it. Thus the third breed. Right now we have several retired dogs and several who have been neutered due to medical reasons. 

My point is that there are many reasons why someone might have two or even three breeds and the situation must be considered. 

I certainly wasn't offended, but did feel that it was important to mention that just having more than one breed is not necessarily a red flat and as with everything just one piece of a puzzle.


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## starcrwn (Jan 23, 2008)

Pat is a very good, reputable breeder of many, many years. I've met Buzz and hope to use him in the future as he has many great qualities and is only an hour South! He has all his clearances, including ofa excellent hips, and has a nice pedigree.

Karen
Star Crowned Goldens


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

esSJay said:


> Red22, North of LA. How far are you willing to travel? Contact KellyH, or search her last few posts/threads. I think her pup was just born a few weeks ago and she mentioned that there was 1 puppy left in the litter and I believe she is from LA area. I can't remember the name of the breeder off the top of my head.
> 
> One breeder that comes to mind in California is Birnam Wood. Maybe make a new thread with the title "Breeder in California", and others from the area will chime in.


 
The puppy that KellyH is getting is from Timberee Goldens but I believe they are located in Colorado.


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## Red22 (Jul 12, 2009)

Thanks all! Glad to hear its not a definite red flag - I guess for me I'd feel more comfortable actually seein g the pups and their surroundings before putting down a sizeable deposit! I do understand the reasoning why that wouldn't be allowed though!


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I am not a breeder but I know that in little breeds like yorkies they dont have the big litters like goldens. Some yorkies will only have 2-4 puppies so they are not as busy as they would be with 13 puppies.


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

Laurie said:


> The puppy that KellyH is getting is from Timberee Goldens but I believe they are located in Colorado.


Right - thanks Laurie! I knew it was somewhere in the 'west' and knew that KellyH is from the LA area! 



goldenjackpuppy said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with this breeder (assuming all clearances are updated) but there's nothing spectacular about the breeding on the website - which I assume is the one you're looking at. But, you could definitely do a lot worse. The reason I would keep looking is that I don't like breedings with multiple generations of untitled dogs (as appears to be the case here, at least on the sire's side and the dam's dam's side, although the dam's sire is titled). It still makes me wonder why they're breeding these two if they're (presumably) not competing with the dogs being bred. Something to think about, since she obviously shows some of her dogs in conformation. Maybe she thinks Buzz won't be competitive in AKC shows, who knows. It couldn't hurt to ask.
> 
> To piggyback on what eeSJay said though, there are a lot of good breeders in the LA area. I even know of two breedings right now that I've heard of in the past couple of weeks. Not sure if puppies are available, but it's worth a shot. PM me if you are still looking and I can send you contact info.


I completele agree with Michelle... sounds to me like this breeder is pretty meteocre. If she's involved in showing, why wouldn't she breed the dogs with the title, or title these dogs before showing them? I would contact Michelle via PM and look into the breeders that she suggests. Michelle is getting into conformation showing herself and is from CA and will definitely have a couple of great suggestions.


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## starcrwn (Jan 23, 2008)

Excuse me, but she is involved in showing and has been for many, many years. It is just amazing how some of you obvious 'newbies' (and 1995 means you are still a newbie) are so self-righteous and opinionated and have no issues trashing the reputations of long established breeders. And it's spelled "mediocre"... sort of like your advice.


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## eeneymeanymineymo (Oct 5, 2009)

starcrwn said:


> Excuse me, but she is involved in showing and has been for many, many years. It is just amazing how some of you obvious 'newbies' (and 1995 means you are still a newbie) are so self-righteous and opinionated and have no issues trashing the reputations of long established breeders. And it's spelled "mediocre"... sort of like your advice.


Thank you for posting this. I can't agree more. Just because a bitch/dog doesn't have a CH. title on her does not mean she/he isn't worthy of being bred. How do you know that neither one of these dogs have NOT been shown? Not everyone has the money to pay a handler to take their puppy out and finish it before the age of two years old. Most breeders have more than one dog and trying to establish themselves, their breeding program and show their own dogs (yes, many of us still do) which can take many years. I do not know this breeder mentioned personally but I have heard of her and her dogs. Ripping breeders apart seems to be an active sport for many of you. 

Years ago, a bitch was bred without a CH. and if she hadn't, the top producing dam in breed history would of never been born....gasp.....does that make that breeder a BYB or mediocre? I think not. That bitch born out of an unfinished CH. bitch was Aruba. And if you don't know who she was, then you are a newbie.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I didn't trash the breeder's reputation at all. I said there was nothing wrong with the *breeder* (from what someone can see on the website anyway) but that I would probably not consider a pup from this *breeding* (my opinion, and yes I'm allowed to have one even though I'm new to goldens) and said I would probably ask about the dogs being bred since she seems to show some of her dogs and not others. There may be a reason, and I said it couldn't hurt to ask. 

I think it's concerning to see a pedigree with generations of untitled (not just CH, but any title) dogs being bred. I think that at least warrants a question to the breeder about why she is breeding the two dogs, if the dogs are competitive in any venue, etc. But I'll keep that opinion to myself from now on since apparently only those that have been breeding for decades should ever respond to an inquiry on here about a breeder or breeding. Perhaps those of you with more than 15 years of experience should chime in earlier on these inquiries if it upsets you to hear anyone else give their opinion.


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

starcrwn said:


> Excuse me, but she is involved in showing and has been for many, many years. It is just amazing how some of you obvious 'newbies' (and 1995 means you are still a newbie) are so self-righteous and opinionated and have no issues trashing the reputations of long established breeders. And it's spelled "mediocre"... sort of like your advice.


Wow, you're rude.

Nowhere did I trash anyone's reputation. There's nothing wrong with *giving my opinion *to look elsewhere. I didn't say the breeder was horrible, nor did I say that she was fantastic. I simply said she was meteocre )), with the intended meaning of "ok" "average" "ordinary". I don't know her, not did I claim to, but judging by what I have read from the website, ofa, k9data, etc., I would personally choose to look elsewhere. 

My comment regarding breeding without a CH. title to their name was due to the same reasoning as goldenjackpuppy posted:


> I think it's concerning to see a pedigree with generations of untitled (not just CH, but any title) dogs being bred.


 In addition to health clearances and proper temperament, a dog who has been proven in one or more competitive venues is also up there on my list in the minimum requirements.


Jeeeeeez!!! (or is it Geeeeeez? I'll have to check my dictionary.)

Maybe I shouldn't have wasted my time responding, seeing as "ms. 16 posts" told me I'm not entitled to my opinion yet.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

starcrwn said:


> Excuse me, but she is involved in showing and has been for many, many years. It is just amazing how some of you obvious 'newbies' (and 1995 means you are still a newbie) are so self-righteous and opinionated and have no issues trashing the reputations of long established breeders. And it's spelled "mediocre"... sort of like your advice.


I agree with this. I was also uncomfortable with the "opinions" that were given here for multiple reasons. 

I think that it is not inappropriate to tell a person looking for a puppy what they should look for and perhaps what is a red flag on a website but beyond that speculation is really not appropriate and it is easy to forget that peoples reputations are at stake and that is why Starcrwnd got so upset and honestly I can see why. 

It is easy when you are new to be self righteous and condemning and over time you realize that things are not as black and white as you initially thought they were. Like having two breeds, like owning the sire and dam, like guessing as to why someone is showing some dogs but not others. 

Speculating is never a good thing and as soon as we start labeling someone as "mediocre" that is a very strong label and can be damaging. 

While we may be able to see some things right off the bat... perhaps we should be giving people the list of things to ask and get answers about. 

In stead of assuming WHY she is showing some and not others perhaps we should suggest that hte person ask why she is showing some and not others. 
Ask why her dogs don't have conformation titles, and there are numerous reasons why a dog may be held out of showing for a while or forever. 

I to am uncomfortable with some of the statements that are then backed up with the "well its my opinion" as if it is ok to bash someone they don't know,and damage their reputation without all the information as long as they say "it's my opinion". 

I think the care should be taken 
just my "two cents" as always 
S


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

The beauty of this forum is that it allows people to find out more information about selecting a breeder, and what questions to ask. That is important to finding a happy and healthy pet. 

The members here, including myself, are passionate about our breed. No one should fault them for pointing out inconsistencies, possible red flags (whether applicable here or not), or even minute things that they might feel would be appropriate for the puppy buyer to broach with the breeder. We all know that websites aren't always current nor do they portray the information that a face to face conversation or phone call can provide. I think reputations should be regarded with care, but it comes back to asking the right questions and I'm sorry to say that in many cases the answers or lack there of, are why we respond to these threads. We want the good people to keep doing what they're doing, and the bad, well- to stop.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

That is exactly what I did. I suggested that the OP *ASK* about those things. My post did not assume anything, I just noted that it was strange she appeared to show some dogs and not others but that perhaps there was a REASON. I also noted the lack of titles on numerous dogs in the pedigree...something unusual and maybe concerning for someone who appears to show some of her dogs but not others. It is not about the lack of a CH title on the sire and dam, it's the sheer number of untitled dogs in the pedigree. That is not self-righteous or condemning in the slightest, just pointing out something easily verified on k9data.com. 

I have many times on this forum couched my opinions to be taken with a grain of salt because I'm relatively new to the breed. But given that the "sport of dogs" has been rumored to be on its way "out", I would think that those who love this breed and have been involved for a long time would be excited that there are "newbies" who have a passion for goldens. To suggest, however, that one can't form an opinion on anything related to a particular breeding unless they've been involved in the breed for more than 15 years (or possibly more, who knows what the "magic number" of years is based on starcrwn's and eenymeany's posts) is just ridiculous. 

If you don't like the opinion, comment on the opinion. But those posts were condescending and unnecessary.


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## [email protected] (Dec 15, 2010)

I was very upset to read what Dunevilnj has said about Emerald Acres. I, too, got my puppy from them and to this date, have not regretted it for one moment. We have been stopped on the street more times than I can count to say how gorgeous and mellow our dog is for a "golden." It is very apparent that your comments come a place of not knowing the facts. There is more behind the scenes than what you can read in the web site. Go to the breeder to see for yourself, have them "show" you the clearances, and then make your judgement call. These dogs are raised in a family environment with horses, cats, fish, and people from infants up to great grandparents. The dogs are loved, well cared for, mellow, and most importantly, healthy. Not all breeders can claim OFA Excellent hips in both sire and dams. To me, that points to a very concientious breeder. As with Champ mentioned above, our girl is very easy and was a pleasure to train. She is smart beyond belief, and above all else, healthy. Before you jump to judgement, please get the facts. I have already sent two referrals to her who are just as pleased as I was.


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

esSJay said:


> I completele agree with Michelle... sounds to me like this breeder is pretty meteocre. If she's involved in showing, why wouldn't she breed the dogs with the title, or title these dogs before showing them?
> ....


I was just reading back through my posts and wanted to clarify my quote refering to "completely agreeing with Michelle" and then saying the breeder was mediocre. First I didn't mean to insinuate that Michelle referred to the breeder as mediocre (sorry Michelle!). Secondly, I want to clarify that when I said mediocre I did not mean it in a derogatory way. After looking up the real definition of it, I didn't realize that it could be used as a derogatory term. I simply meant that _as it *appears to me from their website*_, I would think indifferently about them - neither horrible or outstanding - just somewhere in the middle. Yes they do the minimum health clearances, but I have been more impressed by what some other breeders have to offer in regards to clearances, titles, etc. And that goes for breeders who are personal friends of mine, other breeders who I have met and spoken with, and also from websites of other breeders who I have not met IRL.


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## starcrwn (Jan 23, 2008)

Calling a breeder mediocre is extremely derogatory. You had better save that for someone you actually know something about. You have no idea what she has been through in the past few years and when she reads what you have written she will find it very hurtful. Honestly, a little bit of shame and less excuses.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

starcrwn said:


> Calling a breeder mediocre is extremely derogatory. You had better save that for someone you actually know something about. You have no idea what she has been through in the past few years and when she reads what you have written she will find it very hurtful. Honestly, a little bit of shame and less excuses.


In defense of some of the posters here, of course they have no idea what sort of personal problems or issues someone may have, and I understand and believe esSJay when she says that she was not using mediocre in a derogatory way, but rather to mean "middle of the road". Calling people that you don't know self-righteous and opinionated is rather harsh, as well. Everyone is, after all, entitled to an opinion.


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## Champ (Jun 10, 2006)

I just dug up Champ's papers from when I got him back in 2002.  It looks like shot records, directions on how to crate train/potty train etc, a contract, copies of the sire and dam's akc certified pedigree, OFA preliminary report, and clearances. They all were up to date in 2002 when I went to pick him up. Champ's sire was involved in shows. He is Chopper (Am CH Emerald's California Dream)...who was just absolutely gorgeous  and sandieschwartz, sounds like my boy. with the exception of his puppyhood shennanigans I would say Champ turned out to be very calm (if thats what you're looking for in a golden), well behaved, and VERY easy to train. I was able to train him myself at 10 years old. He knows well over 20 commands now and has an amazing amount of self control. My smart boy balancing 11 milkbones on his nose:









These traits seem to consistently show up in Emerald's dogs. I may not know as much about breeding as the rest of the folks here, but just wanted to share my own experience with you if that gives you any comfort. Whether or not Pat is the best breeder of all time, I am satisfied with my dog's health and disposition and that's all I could ask for. Champ has also been free of health problems *knock on wood* within these past 8 years that we have had him. He just had a full senior exam and the vet said everything looks perfect. I think the best thing to do is maybe meet Pat in person to ask her questions, or talk to her on the phone and see if you can visit their home and see their dogs.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.... but when that opinion is put on a public bulletin board and can damage someones reputation then extra care should be taken when expressing that opinion and being sure that the opinion is based on fact and not speculation. 

When I first came here it was because I was seeing hits on my website from this site. Come to find out someone had shared the ear cleaner recipe so fine.. but I often think about how would I feel if I came here and found my dogs or my breeding program the subject of some of the criticism I see here. 

I have two breeds.... shoot I am getting a wolfhound that will be three. Does anyone know based on my website the reasoning here? no, should someone ask me... yeah absolutely... but I can only imagine what would be said in the comments here... 

I have 8 dogs... at this time I have two goldens that will be shown. I don't place my retirees or medically involved dogs... they have a home here forever... I have a boy with epilepsy aged 9, a yogi kid aged 10, my girl kaelyn who is mom to some of the tkids here and will be spayed this year, shalva who would be spayed if she didnt have a MRSA infection and I was told not to spay her for a year at least. My boy Bing wiht a liver defect who is neutered and Meir who is neutered due to just not turning out how I would like. This leaves my Emmett and Connie.... so of the 8 only two will be shown.... if someone were to look at my website they might come up wiht completely different reasons I haven't shown my 2 or 3 year olds. They don't know that medical issues in some of the dogs have run us about 15,000 dollars this year putting showing and all that goes with it on hold as well as clearances on some of the dogs. They don't know that we spent 10,000 saving the life of a puppy that was returned to us (Bing). They won't know that my girl was injured and came down with a MRSA infection that became expensive to treat (Shalva). Given those things what would they think about the fact that I have English/European dogs and that they are light in color... would they notice that I never say the words cream or would they zoom right in on color. They wouldn't know that I am contemplating a breed switch and that my flat coat lines are at an end so if I am even going to consider it now would be the time. 

Would they be privy to the conversations about showing my immature dogs that I have with my mentor a long time golden breeder who I work with closely and have learned a great deal from... no of course not.. Could they ask me? absolutely... shoot I put bings liver problem on k9 data.... 

so no of course the folks here didn't know the background.... they didn't know the issues... did they mean any harm probably not... but it is important to exercise caution and remember that what appears on a website may or may not be up to date.... that making extreme black and white statements may not be accurate and appropriate and that as important as ones opinion might be it is also important to try and recognize that they may not have the whole story.... and it is hard to know what you don't know. 

I know that I would be crushed.... and that all someone would have to do is ask and I would tell them anything.....


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## [email protected] (Dec 15, 2010)

Champ, I am impressed with the 11 milkbones! Kudos! If those people are truly concerned who are questioning the dogs coming from Emerald Acres, then they should listen to those of us chiming in who have purchased her dogs. As they say, the proof is in the pudding. Our dog is Windy. There are several pics of her on Emerald Acres site. She is gorgeous and proof positive that Pat's dogs can hold a candle to any other breeders. Her sire and dam are Tony and Candy. Since most dogs are sold as pets, what you don't see in her web site are those people who enter competition with their dogs that are not conformed due to the "pet" status with the AKC. That does not mean that Emerald Acres does not produce championed dogs, just maybe not AKC. I have just started Windy in agility and she has already placed in two obedience competitions, albeit not AKC but who is to say that the AKC competitions are the be all to end all. Yes, they can set a standard but I can tell you I have seen MANY dogs compete in agility that surpass any AKC event. While I am not a breeder, nor do I claim to have as much knowledge as you all, I can certainly attest to Pat's program simply based on my own personal experience.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Shalva,
I appreciate your honesty and forthrightness. It is extremely difficult for any of us to put up our dogs' shortcomings on K9data... for the rest of the golden World to see. If we would all post COD's, eye reports, etc, we might all gain some insight....


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## Red22 (Jul 12, 2009)

Wow! I'm really sorry that this post has become so heated that really wasn't my intention at all! I *did* come here asking for opinions and suggestions and I really appreciate the opinions and suggestions that you all gave. I am new to purebreds and and Pats site looked fine to me and I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing any red flags. And I did receive many valuable suggestion regarding additional questions to ask. There are so many byb that have really nice websites so I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something! Again, I'm really sorry that my post stirred things up here - and I really do appreciate all the advice I have received here!


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Red, 
In my mind you have nothing to apologize for... There is alot of valuable information here and sometimes things need to be stirred up. It is important to realize the impact of comments and you were just the catalyst for discussion about that. 

nothing to apologize about at all 
S


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