# Just when I thought I was getting somewhere...



## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Because of his age, I would lean more towards play than resource guarding.

Absolutely do not use punishment. Read this paper by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior on punishment:
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonl...Statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf

(and for good measure, the paper on dominance)
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf

This week if he is on the couch and you need him off, do lure him off with a treat. This is called management, and it is how you avoid a confrontation.

If you continue to punish him, there is a good chance he will learn that "people do bad things" and he willl be more likely to growl/bite/etc when you approach and it will only escalate because he doesn't know how else to communicate to these silly humans.

The other half of your solution is training. You need to teach him to get on and off of things when you ask. Look up targeting. This is probably the simplest. 

The other option would be to find an object he can easily get on and off a lot of times. For a 5 month old puppy I would NOT practice with a couch due to it's height. Say "UP!" (or whatever word you like!), pause, then silently lure him up with a treat. Say "Off!" , pause, and silently lure him off with the treat. Very soon he will figure out the game. You don't have to use food forever, just when you are teaching something new or making it harder. One of the biggest mistakes with food training can be to get rid of it before the behavior is absolutely solid.

If you're needing more help, look up the person who was just on the "talent" program on TV with her border collie (and parrot!). She has a training program and many people I highly respect love her. Even if she's far from where you live, she may have a resource of someone closer to you that can help.


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## tillytay1 (Feb 22, 2010)

Let me make it clear first of all that I am not one for punishing my dog, hence why I am on here for advice as I care enormously for my dog. I do use treats in training ( as mentioned) and always have, and up until now it has worked with him. My concern was that my dog bit me...in this particular situation and I don't want a repeat of it. I am not inexperienced with dogs, I've had a dog previously, but never had to deal with this type of behaviour and so I do need some pointers this time. Thankyou for the ideas and links, I will take a look. However, I have to disagree when you say that it is more like play rather than resource 'couch' guarding....the behaviour he demonstrated was most definitely not play.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Look up Nothing in Life is Free training on the internet. It is very good positive training that teaches dog to respect you. 

For now, while you are training him, do use treats to lure him off. RedDogs has given you spot on advice about training him Up and Off. Eventually he will know the commands and comply - having said that I really think he should not be allowed on the couch just to avoid this type of problem.

You can also just make a loop with the leash handle and slip it over his head, instead of grabbing him you just lead him off. 

Be sure to praise him and treat him when he does get off, you want him to learn THAT is the behaviour that gets him good things.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

tillytay1 said:


> However, I have to disagree when you say that it is more like play rather than resource 'couch' guarding....the behaviour he demonstrated was most definitely not play.


You could be right. Riley was resource guarding at 14 weeks old! And I mean, serious resource guarding -- there was nothing playful about it.

I don't see any harm in using treats, for now. You're not rewarding him for what he already did -- you're just teaching him that listening to you pays off and it's in his best interest to do what you ask.
I would definitely find something other than the couch, since that's already a trouble spot, and practice "off" several times a day, everyday. With treats. You want to get to a point where his response (getting off of whatever he's on) is just automatic and he doesn't stop to think 'No, I think I'd rather stay here, thanks.' 

Try to keep him off the couch while you're working on the training. That way, you can avoid a repeat confrontation that could set you back. If he does get up there, lure him with a treat to avoid a confrontation. 

I'm not a trainer, but that's what we did with Riley and it worked beautifully. Goldens are smart - they learn very quickly. We practiced with treats for a couple months, until his response was solid, then we started treating intermittently - sometimes he'd get a reward, sometimes just praise and eventually phased the treats out altogether.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Think about it like this, If you do not know the word Off and I come into the room and tell you off and you don't do it. I then either give you a push or pull for you to get off the couch. What would you do? You would tell me to stop it, right. That was the growl. If I didn't listen to you and continued to push or pull you off the couch what would you do? Protect yourself? I think so.

You have a young dog that doesn't know the commands and felt the need to protect himself. 

Your pup may have been sore, or teething or the pup may be more reactive than you thought. 

If you truly feel that during this incident your dog was way over the top reactive then I would really suggest seeking out a professional to help you. 

If it was just poor communication between you both, I think that you can re-evaluate, figure out all the important commands you need to work on for you both to be safe and move forward with your training.

What your pup did is not acceptable in the world of humans but is perfectly natural in the dog world. 

You need to give him more skills to deal in our human world and in the process listen to your dog also.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

We have recently moved house and everthing up until now has been great. Dantes has settled into his new home comfortably...perhaps TOO comfortably. For this incident I DO blame myself in a way but at the same time Dantes needs some sorting out with this. In our old apartment 'wrongly' I see now, I let him sit on the sofa with me. In this house ( with a brand new sofa, and because he is now getting bigger), we have decided the sofa is a no go area....Dantes obviously disagrees.

He doesnt' understand the new rule.

I know lots of people would suggest coaxing him off the sofa with a treat but I feel that this in a way is rewarding him after the event of doing wrong. I want him to move off the sofa or any other furniture that I don't want him to sit on, with a command and respect.

He still needs to learn what you want and that takes training. While training the dog should be rewarded. In the beginning using the treat as a lure gives the idea to the dog what you want. Then you set up training sessions where you have the food/treat/toy where the dog doesn't see it but again ask for the behavior and as soon as the dog does it give the praise and reward. This takes a lot of repetition and to expect them to do it without the learning phase sets you and the dog up to fail. A five or six month old is a very young dog to expect the dog to do things just because he/she respects you.


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## andkristylee (Dec 28, 2008)

I didn't read all the other responses so I don't know if this was said but we were the same with our pup. When we first got him he was allowed on the couch but after we moved and got new furniture the couch was a no go. We ended up putting pennies in a coke can and taping the opening shut and every time Cooper would head for the couch we'd go crazy shaking the can. He hated the noise and soon enough he stopped trying for the couch. Another thing is a year later we do let him on the couch but only if a blanket is covering the couch. He knows the difference. Good Luck! I hope you get it all figured out!


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Puppies can resource guard. About half the puppies I see are initially resource guarding. Most (95%) of the other "aggressive" behavior from puppies is play based. It can look really really really scary to people. Your puppy may be resource guarding, playing, or guarding in play. Either way, the same (posted above) protocol is to be used.

How bad was the bite? He contacted your skin? Was there an indentation? Did he puncture the skin, and if so, in how many places? Did he do one bite or multiple? 

If a dog demonstrates resource guarding, I will immediately move away so I am safe. I then prepare my materials and use -management- to decrease the tension. If I need to immediately move the dog, I will toss a few treats/kibble/etc away from the guarded object and while the dog is away move the valued item carefully away or block access to where he had been. If the dog moves back towards the item when I do this...we'll repeat the treats on the floor thing for a while to help him relax. This is management, not training. This is how we deal with situations that happen. 

But most of it comes down to prevention training and training for the issue. 

If a dog growls (other than in play) or gives other "distance increasing" signals, I always will stop where I am, and often back off. That shows a level of stress/arousal that I need to decrease before we can progress iwth the scenario. I always respect these signals so that the dog can learn that I'm predictable, reasonable, and safe.


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## tillytay1 (Feb 22, 2010)

RedDogs said:


> How bad was the bite? He contacted your skin? Was there an indentation? Did he puncture the skin, and if so, in how many places? Did he do one bite or multiple?
> 
> If a dog demonstrates resource guarding, I will immediately move away so I am safe. I then prepare my materials and use -management- to decrease the tension. If I need to immediately move the dog, I will toss a few treats/kibble/etc away from the guarded object and while the dog is away move the valued item carefully away or block access to where he had been. If the dog moves back towards the item when I do this...we'll repeat the treats on the floor thing for a while to help him relax. This is management, not training. This is how we deal with situations that happen.
> 
> ...


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

you may want to consider adding teaching him the place where he *is* supposed to lie down....


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## tillytay1 (Feb 22, 2010)

LibertyME said:


> you may want to consider adding teaching him the place where he *is* supposed to lie down....



thanks for the input. if you have read previous, i have already mentioned that. knowing and sleeping on his bed hasn't been the issue... using the sofa during the day has been the issue and one which i am working on to rectify. like i said, 'extra fuss' is being made with his bed. he does understand when i say 'bed' and gets a treat and fuss when he goes to it.


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

If I'm not wrong, I think he is at that testing age to where they try to establish where they are in the pack. Some dogs prefer to take the upper hand and be the leader of the pack.

I had such a hard time with this with Bailey and the kids and it all began at 4/5 months of age. I actually brought in a behavior specialist and I've been working with her for the last 9 months on it. However, my Bailey's aggression is fear based. I have the most scared dog. Now her biggest fear is helicopters and airplanes. 

If your pup decides to esclate his behavior, you may want to bring in a behavior specialist. Good luck and I hope you get him straightened out fast!


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

He is just a puppy and like any "kid" he is testing the environment to see how far he can go. You need to be firm and let him know the rules and boundaries. Since your have been "indulging" him (puppies ae never spoiled  ) you will need to start at the beginning. I agree punishment will not help, if you don't want him on the sofa he has to learn that it is now off limits. Teach him "off" and make it apply to all furniture. He only gets to come up when invited.

Use food to begin with or a favorite toy, you are changing the rules so go easy on him. If he snarls, shows teeth or growls tell him know firmly and remove him form the sofa. You may need to keep a lead on him in the beginning, just pick up the lead and say "off". If he jumps back on say no and remove him again. The third time say off and walk him to his crate for a short time out, only 20 - 30 seconds. When you let me out know talking or contact. Be firm put keep it upbeat and give him something fun to do on the floor. You may want to get a dog bed and put some special toys on it, that will become "his sofa". Good-luck


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## tillytay1 (Feb 22, 2010)

Thanks to those of you who have taken the time to try to give me some advice. Since the sofa episode, and after a bit of practice with the 'up' 'down' command he hasn't even attempted to go on the sofa since. However, I still maintain that his behaviour is more than just puppy tantrums or 'my fault' as reading between the lines some people seem to view his behaviour as a reflection on what I'm doing. Yes, I agree that a lot of your dog's behaviour is down to you and training but sometimes there is something else going on, where the finger shouldn't always be pointed to the owner. This instant snappy behaviour is so 'out of the blue'...and following a more serious biting incident the other day (since this post) I have now called in for a dog behaviorist to see what really is going on. I am desperate to find out what the problem is and how it can be fixed. If the problem is me then sort me out, but from previously owning a dog and raising a puppy, I hear alarm bells this time.

On Saturday morning we had a great time down by the coast, lovely walk everything great...Later in the afternoon, the weather was nice and so we decided to head out again. We were just about to leave and called Dantes, just as we do each and every time we go for a walk. My husband went over and tried to coax him saying 'come on walk Dantes', and went to touch him, he growled and snapped instantly piercing his hand really badly...I mean DEEP puncture wound. My husband was really shocked, that from being so cuddly and loving only shortly before that point in time, he just turned. After that, my husband said he didn't want to go near him because he couldn't trust him and unpredictable, which personally I can understand especially when your own dog has just bitten your hand badly. I can't even try to understand why it happened, he wasn't resource guarding...we were just going out for a walk, like any other day.

Last night I was really upset. On the evening we went out and took Dantes to the park to have a bit of off leash time with some park dog buddies. After playing and rolling around, we got back home and he was caked in mud!!!!  I decided to bath him, and usually I do it no problem with no worries...but last night I suddenly felt nervous about lifting him and giving him a wash in the bath. He has never been upset about it before but I still felt cautious in case he disagreed again...My husband ended up picking him up for me and then I bathed him - no problems. I was upset becasue I realised I didn't fully trust him as I've done before.

One thing I do know about Dantes is that for the last few months he has been highly charged with 'excitement' ... his manhood  He is ALWAYS excited down there...ALWAYS!!!!!! A month ago he went through the humping stage... and even tried to hump a few dog owners giving him attention in the park  I don't know if that is part of his changed behaviour or what. What I do know is that I can't live on edge wondering if I approach my own dog he may or may not appreciate it. For those of you who are interested, I will keep you informed after I have met the behaviourist.


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

> Yes, I agree that a lot of your dog's behaviour is down to you and training but sometimes there is something else going on, where the finger shouldn't always be pointed to the owner.


I completely agree with that. Bailey has had a few litter mates rehomed that I'm for sure of. Also, her mother has fear and now my dog is deathly afraid of helicopters and airplanes. Figure that one out? I bought Bailey from a byb with a fearful mother. 


Right now Bailey has been awesome for two weeks since we brought Annie home. However, the airplane and helicopter business is still something to behold. Even though I have a fearful dog, I will still keep working with her. I've dramatically boosted her confidence so far, and I will continue to do so. I love her to pieces even though she has a bad temperment.


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## tillytay1 (Feb 22, 2010)

Nicole, I actually agree with what you are saying, I think you may have misread what I meant. It is a 'nature v nurture' thing, like in humans too. A dog's behaviour can be developed by us humans both positively and negatively, but sometimes the behaviour is down to genes...and we can't be blamed for that. Some dogs because of this are more of a challenge than others, some are a breeze.

Like u were saying, Bailey has problems that follow through her family. What I'm saying is that I'm finding it difficult with the behaviour my dog is demonstrating now...I don't know his background, and really his background is not important at this stage...getting help and helping him to work through it is what I want to do, like you are with Bailey. In the quote, I wasn't saying that all behaviour is shaped by us, I was expressing the opposite, that it can be other factors.

I'm glad u r finding it worth it working with a behaviourist. I am really keen to meet up with the behaviourist now. I am also going to get Dantes vet checked to rule anything else out.


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## tillytay1 (Feb 22, 2010)

Nicole, sorry, ignore me I didn't read your post properly at the first sentence...I read it that you DIDN'T agree with me DOH! ) 

O.K. so we agree )


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

tillytay1 said:


> I am really keen to meet up with the behaviourist now. I am also going to get Dantes vet checked to rule anything else out.


That's always a good idea when you're dealing with sudden, unexplained aggression issues. I haven't read every post in the thread, but has he had a full thyroid panel done? I don't know how common it is for a thyroid issue to show up at his age (??) but it seems to be a common condition in Goldens and when there are sudden aggression issues, I would think there's at least a chance that his thyroid could be the culprit.
I would probably rule out a medical factor before you see a behaviorist. No point putting in the time and money if there's something else going on.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

I don't have very much to add, but just want to wish you good luck with the vets and behaviourist, I hope between you all you can figure this out. It must be very worrying for you all, we all need to be able to trust our dogs, or if not, know what their triggers are and act accordingly.

This is such a difficult situation I agree. What with the house move, he may actually feel he is higher ranking, therefore making his feelings known. I agree with the poster who suggested the NILIF programme, this should help him to be demoted. As for the sofa issue, I found that putting an item such as a broom or such like on there when you can't watch it is really good at keeping them from sneaking on when you're not looking! 

If my dogs try to get on the sofa with me when I don't want it, I block with my body, i.e. perch on the edge of the sofa, no eye contact (as if to say "not interested"), if they don't get the hint, I would get up and walk away. There's nothing wrong with having a cuddle, but it has to be on your terms every time. I have a dog which will be draped across your knee in a matter of seconds if she gets the chance...!

Good luck with ruling out the health issue, that one is definitely the one to rule out first.


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