# He is still very mouthy!



## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

Yeah, right now I could use that "Light at the End of the Tunnel" story too...lol. Been a rough day!


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Murph just hit nine months and is still mouthing. I make him sit and reward him but even that isn't always working. If the bitter apple bottle is within reach I pick it up and he stops right away. When I try to sit and read the paper he's up on my lap (80+ lbs) and starts mouthing,,,,,I reach right for the bitter apple and he stops. I don't even have to spray it anymore!!!


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## Roushbabe (Feb 20, 2011)

I don't know how much this could help you but you could try I guess? I am told with my 9 week old puppy to make a loud noise 'yelping sound' saying ouch and if they still bite then to ignore it and walk away. It's been working really well for me. It's what they would do to each other as litter mates.. just not sure if it would work for you because Chester is already 7 months old.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Well......many here are going to disagree with me, but here goes....

Get one of these, and squirt it in his mouth, while saying "no bite, no bite, no bite." You might have to squirt a lot, because a little might taste good to him. As soon as he stops biting, say "good no bite," while petting him on the head. After a few times, showing him the bottle should be all that's necessary. Bella knows the words, "lemon juice." If she ever gets out of hand, I don't even need to make the walk to the refrigerator. 

This was recommended and demonstrated by a very experienced trainer at the facility we've been taking classes at since Bella was 12 weeks old. They say "no teeth on skin, period" from a very young age. So does my vet.

Under $1 in the produce section:


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## xoerika620xo (May 25, 2012)

Nairb said:


> Well......many here are going to disagree with me, but here goes....
> 
> Get one of these, and squirt it in his mouth, while saying "no bite, no bite, no bite." You might have to squirt a lot, because a little might taste good to him. As soon as he stops biting, say "good no bite," while petting him on the head. After a few times, showing him the bottle should be all that's necessary. Bella knows the words, "lemon juice." If she ever gets out of hand, I don't even need to make the walk to the refrigerator.
> 
> ...


Thank you! The picture isn't showing up


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

xoerika620xo said:


> Thank you! The picture isn't showing up
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App



It's one of those yellow, plastic squeeze bottles, shaped like a lemon.


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

Bitter Lemon. Yes!


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

And try redirection...Maddie has always loved catching a squeaky tennis ball. 

It worked for us.


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## xoerika620xo (May 25, 2012)

Nairb said:


> Well......many here are going to disagree with me, but here goes....
> 
> Get one of these, and squirt it in his mouth, while saying "no bite, no bite, no bite." You might have to squirt a lot, because a little might taste good to him. As soon as he stops biting, say "good no bite," while petting him on the head. After a few times, showing him the bottle should be all that's necessary. Bella knows the words, "lemon juice." If she ever gets out of hand, I don't even need to make the walk to the refrigerator.
> 
> ...


i got it! thanks so much! i dont know why i didn't think about that before. chester already hates lemon. my boyfriend was messing with him and kept putting a lemon in his face and he would run from it haha. i can't wait to try this out lol that sounds wrong on so many levels.


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

Bitter lemon is just if the puppy is chewing on something he/she shouldn't be. Not for putting it in his face.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

xoerika620xo said:


> i got it! thanks so much! i dont know why i didn't think about that before. chester already hates lemon. my boyfriend was messing with him and kept putting a lemon in his face and he would run from it haha. i can't wait to try this out lol that sounds wrong on so many levels.


Sounds like he knows the meaning of "no bite." If the teeth are doing damage, it's time to put a stop to it. 

Others will let their dogs continue to bite them, calling it "normal puppy behavior." With two small kids in the house, that was not going to be an option for us.

Bella actually liked it at first. She even licked it off the floor. I had to use a lot.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> Bitter lemon is just if the puppy is chewing on something he/she shouldn't be. Not for putting it in his face.


It's squirted in to the mouth, not at the face.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I am one of the ones that encourage "normal puppy behavior" which in my dictionary translates to teaching soft mouth. A furbaby will never reach the point of reasoning and there may be a time when they snap. If they do not know soft mouth in my opinion it will be bad. 
For example, Jack was taught soft mouth. When my husband's youngest son was playing with him he unintentionally blew it his ear (it was the way Jack fell on him). Jack turned immediately and snapped at him - but never bit hard. 
When puppies play they use their mouths, the other puppy also teaches them not to bite hard. 
I have a 15 yo daughter but also grandchildren all under the age of 4. None of them or us were ever injured.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I knew some would disagree. That's OK. Even though Bella has never beared down, it still hurts plenty. Everyone needs to assess their own situation and dog. In our case, the kids did not like being bitten whenever they were in the same room with the fluffy puppy.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

To add....at 60-70 lbs the OP's dog is no longer a "fluffy puppy."


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## quilter (Sep 12, 2011)

Binaca used sparingly. Casper is still a mouthy guy when he gets excited, but nothing like when he was younger. What works surprisingly well is for my husband to say "Stop biting your mama."


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

quilter said:


> Binaca used sparingly. Casper is still a mouthy guy when he gets excited, but nothing like when he was younger. What works surprisingly well is for my husband to say "Stop biting your mama."


Binaca was the other thing recommended by the trainer. They actually sell bottles of breath spray at the training facility for this purpose. Some dogs like it, so they graduate to the lemon juice. I found that the pump on the bottle of breath spray didn't always activate quickly enough. 


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## Roushbabe (Feb 20, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> I am one of the ones that encourage "normal puppy behavior" which in my dictionary translates to teaching soft mouth. A furbaby will never reach the point of reasoning and there may be a time when they snap. If they do not know soft mouth in my opinion it will be bad.
> For example, Jack was taught soft mouth. When my husband's youngest son was playing with him he unintentionally blew it his ear (it was the way Jack fell on him). Jack turned immediately and snapped at him - but never bit hard.
> When puppies play they use their mouths, the other puppy also teaches them not to bite hard.
> I have a 15 yo daughter but also grandchildren all under the age of 4. None of them or us were ever injured.


I'm just curious, how do you train a puppy to have a soft mouth? My puppy of 9 weeks at times does a soft bite but my problem is when he's super excited he tends to forget. I agree with enhancing the golden retriever soft bite and not completely stop their biting. 


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

I don't think there ever was a moutier dog than Tayla. From the time we got her at 4 months until just two weeks shy of her one year birthday she bit and bruised on a daily basis. Then she just stopped. Cold turkey. When excited she sometimes gets mouthy, but not like before and not every day and she doesn't do that snapping pinch biting think I just hated. We did start using a compressed air can right before she stopped biting so I don't know if that was a part of it, but we still use it if she is getting overly excited. We don't spray it at her and I actually try to hid it, but she does know the can and sometimes that's all it takes. Good luck.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"he still is very mouthy. I know its excitement and i tell him either no bite or if it's really bad which is most times i lightly close his mouth and say no bite"

You are right when they get over excited they don't hear you. He is getting into his teen time also. He needs lots of consistency with his training. The training has to be before he gets to the point of being over excited. Lots of rewards for good behavior.
If he is over excited I would immediately just give him a gentle time out. They don't learn when they are in the excited zone.
What behaviors do you want Chester to do when he is trying to get you to play and give attention? Train for those over and over and then after you know he knows these behaviors ask for them before he gets worked up.
One of the alternatives could be to teach him a hand target. He needs to touch his nose to your palm. You can make it a game. Can you touch my hand if it is over here. Can you touch my other hand. Can you touch my hand with your nose and stay in that position for 10 seconds, 20 seconds, 30 seconds etc. Can you touch my hand through my legs. Rewarding for each touch. This is giving him something positive to do with you that isn't biting. You can involve the crate with the hand touch. Ask Chester to go into the crate. Reward. Give Chester the release from the crate and ask for the hand target. Reward. Ask for Chester to go to the crate. reward. Have him stay in the crate 2 seconds, 4 seconds, 2 seconds 6 seconds etc. Rewarding for each behavior.
Don't lump all of this together. Get Chester to learn each one before moving on to the next game.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Roushbabe wrote:I'm just curious, how do you train a puppy to have a soft mouth? My puppy of 9 weeks at times does a soft bite but my problem is when he's super excited he tends to forget. I agree with enhancing the golden retriever soft bite and not completely stop their biting.


Bite Inhibition in a 3 mo. old GR Puppy - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums look at my two posts here and Tippykayak's post on the thread


"I prefer holding a low value treat in between my thumb and index finger and giving the dog the treat. If the dog bites hard I say ouch loudly and do not give the dog the treat. I wait for this to go through the dogs mind and try again. After a few or a lot of times not getting the treat the dog takes it more gently I say yes and give the treat. You are looking at increments of the bite changing. It does take some time

Dr. Ian Dunbar's book "Before and After Getting Your Puppy" has a chapter on bite inhibition. In the hardback book it starts on page 135.
There are links somewhere on DogStarDaily to this book separated into Before you get your puppy and the other one is After you get your puppy I am not sure but it might be in there also."


how do you teach bite inhibition? - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums look at Ljilly28 and Tippykayak's post


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Roushbabe said:


> I'm just curious, how do you train a puppy to have a soft mouth? My puppy of 9 weeks at times does a soft bite but my problem is when he's super excited he tends to forget. I agree with enhancing the golden retriever soft bite and not completely stop their biting.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


First and foremost we never yanked the hand out of her mouth. That entices them even more because we make them think it is a game. We intentionally put the hand in the mouth while laying down on the floor with her. That means play time for her. And when she does get rough we say OUCH and then calmly say easy. If she kept on being hard I slowly removed my hand from her mouth and got up and again you repeat, OUCH - just like a puppy leaves the play when the other is too hard. And then you come back on the floor. I will not tell you that it is easy or that it will never hurt a little (that will be a lie) but she never drew blood and we never had marks.
Last night we played on the bed and she jumped between me and my daughter with all her 63 lbs which has nothing to do with the force of her bite and nibbled at our nose, ears and hands for over 15 minutes and neither of us are hurt.
I think that what is also important is that you are the one that starts and stops the play time and impose the game rules, how, when and where. When we are done we say that's enough and get up, go to the kitchen and she gets a little piece of cheese or treat. Also when you give the treat you repeat Easy. if they are too hard because they are excited you say Ouch, no. You repeat and again say Easy! Until they get it that they should be very calm and soft when taking that treat out of your hand.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I tried the Ian Dunbar approach for the first month. It made her bite harder and more often. I've been bit thousands of times, and so have my kids - my daughter has 5-6 ripped shirts to prove it. Bella has been told "ouch" enough to know it hurts. Our vet said this approach is outdated, and to "please don't do that." She still gets mouthy at times, and never bears down, so she has clearly developed a "soft mouth." We just make it clear that its not OK, and we have a means to stop it. 

Thankfully, she has never done this to people who don't live under the same roof as her. In this sue happy world, I don't think you want your dog's teeth touching the skin if anyone, regardless if it's only play biting. 


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

So glad to hear that the outdated methods that have been proven to work are now replaced with squirting lemon juice in their mouths.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I would also add that even Ian Dunbar suggests getting to them stop biting altogether after a couple months. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> So glad to hear that the outdated methods that have been proven to work are now replaced with squirting lemon juice in their mouths.


I'll take the advice of my vet and trainer with 1000+ OTCH points, but thanks for your input on my chosen method. 


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

The suggestion to use Dr. Ian Dunbar's Bite Inhibition to create a soft bite was for Roushbabe who has a 9 week old puppy. She asked how to create a soft bite. You will not get the soft bite by squirting lemon juice in a puppys mouth. Your suggestion is to stop the bite. 

The information I gave on the other thread on behavior science is not outdated. 

For Chester I offered a different approach using positive reinforcement to give an alternative behavior instead of the biting.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"I would also add that even Ian Dunbar suggests getting to them stop biting altogether after a couple months. "

Yes, around the 4 month mark. That is why I gave the alternative behavior approach for Chester who is 7 months.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

solinvictus said:


> The suggestion to use Dr. Ian Dunbar's Bite Inhibition to create a soft bite was for Roushbabe who has a 9 week old puppy. She asked how to create a soft bite. You will not get the soft bite by squirting lemon juice in a puppys mouth. Your suggestion is to stop the bite.
> 
> The information I gave on the other thread on behavior science is not outdated.
> 
> For Chester I offered a different approach using positive reinforcement to give an alternative behavior instead of the biting.


I was responding to Claudia, who has been describing and recommending Dunbar's approach while neglecting to add that Dunbar wouldn't recommend that for a 70+ dog. 

I actually liked Dunbar's book. We followed the crate training recommendations to a tee, and it worked great. 


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## Wenderwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

My puppy is 9 weeks also. From the training information I've read, to train her to control her bite you should "yelp" when they bite too hard. You can do this while you are playing somewhat gently with her. If they start to get too excited and no longer listen, then you should get up and walk away from them for 30 seconds. They want to play so they will learn they can't play if they act wild. They also don't want to hurt so they will respond to "yelping." 

My vet also gave us an exercise to calm her down, we cradle her on her back in our arms and gently rub her ears, look at her eyes, teeth and front paws while saying "gentle" in a calm voice. We hold her and do this until she calms down. If she gets really rowdy, it can take awhile. I don't know if they have something online that explains this better but it seems to be helpful. Now that we've done the exercise enough, if we catch her before she gets too excited, we can say "gentle" and she'll calm down a bit and control her bite again.

For the most part she is good but I think she's got some teeth coming in and bothering her a bit for the last couple days. 

It's a process.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I may be mistaken but I thought Claudia was also responding to Roushbabe with the 9 week old pup. 
Again, I may be mistaken but I think Caudia taught her pup this when she was young and is just doing it now with Rose as maintenance training. (kind of like if you don't use it you lose it) 

I haven't thought much about it but I still offer rewards using my thumb and index finger so he is practicing. But our practice is no teeth on skin. (maintenance training)


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

solinvictus said:


> I may be mistaken but I thought Claudia was also responding to Roushbabe with the 9 week old pup.
> Again, I may be mistaken but I think Caudia taught her pup this when she was young and is just doing it now with Rose as maintenance training. (kind of like if you don't use it you lose it)
> 
> I haven't thought much about it but I still offer rewards using my thumb and index finger so he is practicing. But our practice is no teeth on skin. (maintenance training)


I began by acknowledging that I knew people would disagree with me. Everyone needs to assess their own situation, and do what they think they need to do. think we'll just have to leave it at that. 


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

There is a HUGE difference between aggressive biting and play bite. There is a huge difference between dog aggression and bite inhibition. 
What Erika describes is not dog aggression - is an excited puppy who doesn't know what to do with his mouth.


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## Jen & Brew (Oct 11, 2012)

Gosh I'm lucky! Brew @ 6 months is very very gentle, I figure he learned his bite inhibition and soft mouth from my small pom. He still will play a lot with his mouth but he's so so gentle, the kids will actually roll around the floor laughing when they play with him because they say it tickles. 
My son will walk around the house and the yard with Brew and it's neat because Brew will literally be holding Joey's fingertips in his mouth.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> There is a HUGE difference between aggressive biting and play bite. There is a huge difference between dog aggression and bite inhibition.
> What Erika describes is not dog aggression - is an excited puppy who doesn't know what to do with his mouth.


It sounds like Erika is tiring of the bruises and cuts. Her dog is a big boy now. Time for him to learn "what to do with his mouth."

Disclosure: The above is nothing more than my opinion. Everyone needs to assess their own situation and do what they feel is necessary and appropriate. 


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## xoerika620xo (May 25, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> There is a HUGE difference between aggressive biting and play bite. There is a huge difference between dog aggression and bite inhibition.
> What Erika describes is not dog aggression - is an excited puppy who doesn't know what to do with his mouth.


I understand there is a difference and I understand he is excited but I have young children that come to my house and are literally afraid of my dog not because of how big he is but because he likes to bite. I know it's not his fault hes just trying to play in the only way he knows how to play. it's also partially mine for allowing to go along for a couple months before introducing soft bite. I would much rather go into the pure lemon juice method or the method solinvictis said. While you may not agree its what needs to be done at this point. It's been going on for way too long and I know my boy doesn't mean to hurt me but just doesn't know how so that's my job to show him my way.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I also should mention that I believe they should know what "no bite" means prior go using the lemon juice. I did not, and would not do that with an 8 week old puppy. Bella was over 3 months old, and had heard "ouch," yelps, etc. Redirections with toys, time out in the crate. We tried everything that is frequently mentioned in this forum. It progressively got worse over time. The breath spray/ lemon juice method ended most of it almost immediately. As I said, she still gets mouthy occasionally, but we now have a means to stop it. Considering she's 60 lbs, that's a good thing in my house. 

By the way, it is play biting. Bella has never been aggressive toward another living being since we brought her home. Not even with our cat, who would probably kill Bella if she was capable. 


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## Chaya (Aug 18, 2012)

Roushbabe said:


> I'm just curious, how do you train a puppy to have a soft mouth? My puppy of 9 weeks at times does a soft bite but my problem is when he's super excited he tends to forget. I agree with enhancing the golden retriever soft bite and not completely stop their biting.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


what we do is play tug or some other toy game with our pup (and when Chaya was younger). Encourage her to bite the toy. If we feel ANY teeth on our flesh, we say "eh-uh" loudly, turn away, and stop play for 5 seconds. Then we go back to playing. Eventually, Laika started avoiding our hands because she knows that's "game over". It has translated well into not nipping in general. Now we just have to teach her that wool socks on feet are NOT toys :doh:


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## Chaya (Aug 18, 2012)

I've found that "yelping" sometimes just excited the pup more, and she bites down harder! A monotone "eh-uh", almost like a machine or a robot, works a lot better for us.


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## Doug (Jul 17, 2010)

Dogs at that age love to wrestle and explore with their mouths. They do grow out of it even though you will never break the fun spirit of a golden which is why we love them so much.

It is possible to teach a dog "nice pat" or gentle.
The key is to praise the dog with these words when he/she is being good. You are saying it is time to be gentle, it is not wrestling time.

If all else fails, when excitement takes over use the noise of a dust buster to get them to stop (no need to touch them with it or even point it at them) It makes them stop, think twice and assess the situation. However the praise for stopping must be _immediate_. "Gooooood paaaat" "Gennnnttlllee booy)


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Chaya said:


> I've found that "yelping" sometimes just excited the pup more, and she bites down harder! A monotone "eh-uh", almost like a machine or a robot, works a lot better for us.


LOL. Those things may work for some pups, but not for Bella when she was 3 months old. Walk away...been there, done that. Redirect with a toy....been there, done that. Bitter Apple spray on the hands...well, that one worked a little for a couple days, but she loved munching on hands so much, she tolerated the Bitter Apple too!

It could be that we ended up with an extra mouthy puppy. I don't know. But when I see the various methods suggested I laugh, because none of them worked for us!

I'm not picking on you, Chaya. I know you mean well, and I have no reason to doubt those things helped in your situation.


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## BriGuy (Aug 31, 2010)

If you feel like his biting might stem from over excitement, then I would really recommend a book called "Control Unleashed: The Puppy Program". It can teach your dog some really helpful self-control skills, which will include not biting for attention. I found it to be a great training reference; I was rereading it on my kindle while stuck in an airport yesterday and picked up some new ideas that I missed the first time I read it.

Clean Run: Control Unleashed®: The Puppy Program


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Yelping definitely worked with Molly. Her breeder had been doing it with the puppies before I brought Molly home, so she never nipped us more than a handful of times. She is still mouthy when she's excited, but will never go for skin. She might go for other things that are dangling off us like scarves or whatever we're holding. She only "holds" it and has never put holes in anything but I'm working on getting her to stop grabbing things that aren't hers. 


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## maizy's mom (Nov 21, 2012)

Maizy just turned 1 on Jan 2, she is getting better. have noticed that she gets mouthy if we have been at the dog park, and I am putting her leash back on, or when the kids have gotten her overly excited!!


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## xoerika620xo (May 25, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Yelping definitely worked with Molly. Her breeder had been doing it with the puppies before I brought Molly home, so she never nipped us more than a handful of times. She is still mouthy when she's excited, but will never go for skin. She might go for other things that are dangling off us like scarves or whatever we're holding. She only "holds" it and has never put holes in anything but I'm working on getting her to stop grabbing things that aren't hers.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I've tried the yelping. I swear it feels like I've tried everything with him. Everything positive that I read here I have tried. At first it was working but it's like once he
Lost his puppy teeth it got even worse and I've tried the walking away, re directing, yelping and it doesn't work if anything I feel like it gets him even more
Excited. I've also tried the bitter apple method and peanut butter method. 


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

xoerika620xo said:


> I've tried the yelping. I swear it feels like I've tried everything with him. Everything positive that I read here I have tried. At first it was working but it's like once he
> Lost his puppy teeth it got even worse and I've tried the walking away, re directing, yelping and it doesn't work if anything I feel like it gets him even more
> Excited. I've also tried the bitter apple method and peanut butter method.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry that nothing has worked. In your case, I would use more "extreme" methods (although the lemon thing doesn't seem that extreme at all to me). Before I got Molly's jumping under control, I was so tired of it that I did consider kneeing her.. jumping was just unacceptable especially with her getting bigger and possibly knocking over a child or elderly person.


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## xoerika620xo (May 25, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I'm sorry that nothing has worked. In your case, I would use more "extreme" methods (the lemon thing doesn't seem that extreme at all to me). Before I got Molly's jumping under control, I was so tired of it that I did consider kneeing her.. it was just unacceptable especially with her getting bigger and possibly knocking over a child or elderly person.


Lol I don't know but that made me laugh. I think I'm going to try the lemon method and then the the other one someone else mentioned to me. Thanks for the input 


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## tdm1990 (Jan 8, 2013)

I agree 100% that the yelping did not help me with Harley at all. He gets more excited. He's 16 weeks old this Friday and he has plenty of teeth coming in. 
I have found that distracting him with offering him ice cubes or practicing how to sit and lay down and rewarding will deter him from biting for a bit. 
A lot of the time he just wants me to play with him or sit on the floor with him while he chews a bone. He has tons of built up energy and using his mouth is his way of telling you what he needs. I know it's not acceptable, but the best way to deal with it, for me, is to find out what he wants and work with him. 
The nipping hurts. It bruises. It is not fun at all. I'm going through this with you! Stay patient and positive.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I knew this would turn in to a heated debate, because I've brought it up before. These "biting" questions come up almost daily, yet I rarely say anything. I've learned to pick my spots. I know there are others here who use this method, and are probably reluctant to mention it for the same reason. Anyway, good luck with whatever method you use to control the biting. Erika, let us know how it works out. Here's a tip: you need to poke a hole in the nozzle of the squeeze lemon. Make the hole smaller, so you don't get a bunch of it on the floor. Think of the stream of water from a small squirt gun. That's what you want. Also, I'm a believer that you have to do it right away, so I would have it in your pocket, or sitting right next to you. Lastly, buy 2!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Erika, have you talked to a trainer about this? The only thing that makes me shiver (and I emphasize - this is from my perspective only) is that your Chester will associate you, your hand with the nastiness of the lemon in his mouth which in my view will cause him not to come to you or even worse become aggressive towards you.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Erika, have you talked to a trainer about this? The only thing that makes me shiver (and I emphasize - this is from my perspective only) is that your Chester will associate you, your hand with the nastiness of the lemon in his mouth which in my view will cause him not to come to you or even worse become aggressive towards you.


My 1000+ OTCH point trainer disagrees with you. In addition, Bella has a nearly perfect recall at 8.5 months. Thanks for playing. 


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

We used lemon juice on Bear when he didn't listen to the yelp or the walking away. All it took was one time. I used a decent amount (probably about 1/2-3/4 tbsp). He did not like the taste (all at once) but will gladly lick lemon juice off my hands. 

Idk if Bear is smarter than others, but he never associated hands with bad things. He did associate the plastic lemon with bad things, so all it took after Round 1 was to put the lemon on the end table and if he didn't stop biting when i said "no bite" i would reach for it. He'd immediately stop or get a toy. We had the lemon bottle out for a grand total of 2 days before the biting became manageable. 

Erica -
I hope you find a solution that works for you. 


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Nairb, I don't mean any disrespect, but people have a right to voice their opinion if they are concerned. Because you keep bringing it up, the number of OTCH points does not make your trainer right about all things related to dog training. My 1000+ OTCH point trainer (actually, I have no idea how many OTCH points she has) doesn't like spitting treats and does not advocate it.. Doesn't mean I think it's wrong for handlers to spit treats at their dogs.

The yelping method for me, but it seems as if everyone on this thread disagrees that it works. I don't feel the need to defend the method I chose to use. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Whenever I have needed to grab the lemon out of the fridge (which is rare -- probably haven't taken it out for a month), she stops biting, but still wants to play, or be pet. You can tell that it takes every ounce of self control she can muster to not bite. LOL. For recalls, she associates my hand with treats and belly rubs. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Nairb, I don't mean any disrespect, but people have a right to voice their opinion if they are concerned. Because you keep bringing it up, the number of OTCH points does not make your trainer right about all things related to dog training. My 1000+ OTCH point trainer (actually, I have no idea how many OTCH points she has) doesn't like spitting treats and does not advocate it.. Doesn't mean I think it's wrong for handlers to spit treats at their dogs.
> 
> The yelping method for me, but it seems as if everyone on this thread disagrees that it works. I don't feel the need to defend the method I chose to use.
> 
> ...


Yes, they can voice their opinion. However, one individual seems to be taking side swipe shots at me and my methods while voicing her opinions. I will respond to that each and every time. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

With that, I'm out of this thread. Good luck. 


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## Huskr25 (Jan 11, 2013)

This may sound weird, but when he bites you, cry out a high pitched yelp and ignore him for about 30 seconds. This always gets my puppy to either stop, or bite a lot softer. And they think you're crying so you'll get bombarded with face licks  


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Erica -- One thing I noticed w/ Bear, is that the more we worked on his impulse control, the better he got with biting. I'm not sure if it's coincendental and age played a factor, or if it helped him get better control over putting his mouth on me or my husband. We did allow him to bite as a pup to help develop a soft mouth, and for the most part it worked, but when he was overexcited, nothing would get through his little puppy brain but the lemon juice worked wonders, and I think it helped snap him out of the shark fog. 

Now adays, at 5 months, if he get's too sharky, we attribute it to teething and tell him to go lay down on his bed in a down-stay while we get an appropriate teething toy, then he is redirected to the toy. I know you said, redirecting didn't work - but i wonder if a quick time-out will cool his jets enough that redirection can take hold. 

Or, if he gets to bitey, put him in time-out. 

I tried to read all of the comments, but my phone started skipping pages and leaving answers as gray-space, so I hope I'm not repeating any advice. 

I'd like to encourage you to PM Tayla's mom, since she has intimate knowledge of excessive mouthiness. I'm sure she can hold the light up for you at the end of the tunnel.  

I'll keep you and Chester in my thoughts and hope everything works out. Feel free to come vent at any time. We've all got your back, and there are numerous shoulders to cry on, and ears to lend. 

*hugs* x 10000000000000000


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Nairb, you have been attacking every post I make in a quite rude manner (such as using a shock collar is their business - where I never said not to use one but to ask for expert dirrection before using one). 

Sorry if I do not agree with you and sorry if you do not agree with my opinions. My opinions are based on several dogs raised in our house since 1972. We had one dog that bit a child a Brittany spaniel after she came back from a trainer where she was sent for several days. 
But this is a forum of opinions and everyone should be able to make them freely without swipes and rudeness. I have no clue what ticked you and whatever it is I apologize for it. As a matter of fact I apologized as well in the thread I spoke about above to which you went ahead and unfriended me. I am glad you did so, which only reinforced that you did mean what you said in a rude tone and I did not miss-read what you posted.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I do believe like Claudia that a reward based approach would be the best option. Some dogs can take compulsion/aversive training and do fine others cannot. You don't know until you are doing it with the dog. Sometimes it takes time to recognize there has been some fallout with compulsion based training and by that time it has affected the dog. And if it affects the dog it affects your relationship with your dog.


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## xoerika620xo (May 25, 2012)

Brave said:


> Erica -- One thing I noticed w/ Bear, is that the more we worked on his impulse control, the better he got with biting. I'm not sure if it's coincendental and age played a factor, or if it helped him get better control over putting his mouth on me or my husband. We did allow him to bite as a pup to help develop a soft mouth, and for the most part it worked, but when he was overexcited, nothing would get through his little puppy brain but the lemon juice worked wonders, and I think it helped snap him out of the shark fog.
> 
> Now adays, at 5 months, if he get's too sharky, we attribute it to teething and tell him to go lay down on his bed in a down-stay while we get an appropriate teething toy, then he is redirected to the toy. I know you said, redirecting didn't work - but i wonder if a quick time-out will cool his jets enough that redirection can take hold.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for those kind words. Your post made me smile and hopefully this will all be over soon. Im going to continue to work with him I love my boy so much and I won't give up on him


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## xoerika620xo (May 25, 2012)

I just would like to say I did not start this thread for bickering and for things to go back and forth. Thank you to each and every one of u who replied even if it was to tell me a story. I have wrote down the post that seem like they might work so me and Chester can work on. I just want the best for our relationship. Thank you once again


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Brave's suggestion to work on impulse control games is an excellent suggestion.

I always suggest the It's Yer Choice youtube video to help teach impulse control.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I was lucky to see your post on this video awhile back and really helped. 
Here is another one that also describes what Brave was saying.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Nairb, you have been attacking every post I make in a quite rude manner (such as using a shock collar is their business - where I never said not to use one but to ask for expert dirrection before using one).
> 
> Sorry if I do not agree with you and sorry if you do not agree with my opinions. My opinions are based on several dogs raised in our house since 1972. We had one dog that bit a child a Brittany spaniel after she came back from a trainer where she was sent for several days.
> But this is a forum of opinions and everyone should be able to make them freely without swipes and rudeness. I have no clue what ticked you and whatever it is I apologize for it. As a matter of fact I apologized as well in the thread I spoke about above to which you went ahead and unfriended me. I am glad you did so, which only reinforced that you did mean what you said in a rude tone and I did not miss-read what you posted.


I have attacked "every post" you make? Really? The one you cited is the only one I recall responding to with any amount of sarcasm. Yes, I was bothered that you felt the need to pile on a new member who was not looking for an opinion of shock collars, but to buy one from another forum member. The new member made it clear that she had given it much thought, knew what she was doing, and would use it for an extra precaution on the hikes that her and her family go on. You tried to paint a picture of cruelty by describing a dog being trained to heel, keeping his rear end an inch from the ground due to fear of being shocked. The comment was completely out of place. 

In this instance, I'll just take your advice from another thread, and walk away from this discussion, because its past the point of being productive. Have a great night, Claudia. 


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

Ok, so Sage is only 11 wks tomorrow and we have tried the yelping, redirecting etc...it works to a point...well the yelping doesn't...it ramps her up. I'm going to try the treat training in the video above and go from there.

Thanks Erika for starting this thread, there are some very good idea's in and amongst all the other stuff, and since Sage is still so young I am hoping we can yet nip this before she becomes Chesters age...I must say though that tonight I asked her to touch my face instead of trying to nibble it and she did, along with kisses...this is a first for her and I hope it means that all the redirecting all the time outs and ignoring her are paying off.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

More thoughts.... Teaching the pup hand targeting and touch (which i believe was already suggested) does well with Bear too. He gets the sensation and activity of touching me without the unpleasantness of his teeth. 

Though he did regress and touched only with his teeth for 6 weeks. Man! That was a pain to get rid of. 


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Frankly Nairb, please let people make their comments and not try to play arbitrator on what is appropriate or not. Yes I do try to give visuals and examples on where people and even trainers have hurt dogs (look no further than Cesar Milan - I wonder how many points he has under his belt but based on your comment he should be followed step by step because of the number of points) so the people can make their own judgement calls. 

Yes I am an oldie when it comes down to dog training, I do not use crates, I do not use squirting of any kind, I do not agree with jerking a puppy. What I do promote on this forum is people to get to know their puppy and use someone with experience before shocking their pups. The mere question of where to purchase these collars as opposed to Petco or Petsmart indicated to me the person had no experience in using them. 
"I'll just take your advice from another thread, and walk away from this discussion" - my suspicion has also been confirmed that you have been following the threads I am reading. 
Until you stop being rude towards me and other members on this forum the ignore feature works perfectly.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Frankly Nairb, please let people make their comments and not try to play arbitrator on what is appropriate or not. Yes I do try to give visuals and examples on where people and even trainers have hurt dogs (look no further than Cesar Milan - I wonder how many points he has under his belt but based on your comment he should be followed step by step because of the number of points) so the people can make their own judgement calls.
> 
> Yes I am an oldie when it comes down to dog training, I do not use crates, I do not use squirting of any kind, I do not agree with jerking a puppy. What I do promote on this forum is people to get to know their puppy and use someone with experience before shocking their pups. The mere question of where to purchase these collars as opposed to Petco or Petsmart indicated to me the person had no experience in using them.
> "I'll just take your advice from another thread, and walk away from this discussion" - my suspicion has also been confirmed that you have been following the threads I am reading.
> Until you stop being rude towards me and other members on this forum the ignore feature works perfectly.


Oh, where to begin....

The new member did not ask where to purchase an e-collar. She asked if anyone here had one for sale. It was posted in the "Marketplace" section.

I had already been participating in that thread the quote came from by the time you showed up.

And.....oh, never mind. Thanks for letting me know about the "ignore" feature.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Claudia and Nairb.... I'm sorry if this is blunt, but I think we should get this thread back on target. 

Perhaps you both can add each other to the ignore feature. 

I really appreciate each of your previous contributions, but now it's turning into personal conflicts. 

Op - sorry for hijacking. 


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## xoerika620xo (May 25, 2012)

Brave said:


> Claudia and Nairb.... I'm sorry if this is blunt, but I think we should get this thread back on target.
> 
> Perhaps you both can add each other to the ignore feature.
> 
> ...


Not hijacking I was going to say the same 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

You're all right. It is childish bickering. I apologize for my participation in it.

Good luck with the biting problem. I think you'll be surprised how effective the lemon juice is.

On to the next thread...........


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Nairb said:


> You're all right. It is childish bickering. I apologize for my participation in it.
> 
> Good luck with the biting problem. I think you'll be surprised how effective the lemon juice is.
> 
> On to the next thread...........


Thank you, NairB. I appreciate you so much!!!! *hugs* I hope my words did not hurt you. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Brave said:


> Thank you, NairB. I appreciate you so much!!!! *hugs* I hope my words did not hurt you.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No, I probably deserved it. In fact, as I type this, I don't even remember what you said. LOL.


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## leesooim (Nov 1, 2012)

I read every post in this thread, and here's my little contribution for what's it's worth.

Yelping and standing, turning away from puppy with arms folded, or "being a tree" as some trainers/my breeder refer to it: sometimes works after literally a full minute, other times Sasha has ripped holes in our clothing

Yelping/saying ouch loudly: just ramps her up even more

Saying no, or no bite and lightly holding mouth closed: ramps up even more

Redirecting: works for as long as the puppy push ups may last, but she then resumes being mouthy. Redirecting to a toy usually doesn't work and she just keeps going after us anyway, or if we give her the toy and she takes it, when we get up to walk away she'll come after our ankles!

Time out: seems to be the only thing that works for us, but at least right now doesn't seem terribly useful in teaching her not to put teeth on people at all yet.

If I reach for the Bitter Apple, Sasha has experience with it from me spraying stuff I didn't want her to chew, so I've never had to spray it in her mouth for being bitey and she stops once she sees it in my hand, but I also like to just walk out of the room entirely and ignore her for a minute or so. Trying to figure out a better way to teach bite inhibition that DOESN'T employ tug of war or saying "Ouch! Eaaaasy" since the verbal option just makes her even more hyper. Little snot!

Good luck to you, Erika! Puppies are challenging, but worth every minute IMHO


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky (Feb 22, 2011)

I did not read through all the responses, so please excuse me if this has already been suggested. Why not try redirecting. It's how I taught my girl not to mouth. I started training this way when we got her as an 8 week old, so I don't know if it will work on an older puppy, but I'm thinking it would. 

Whenever she would start to mouth, I would have a toy handy. I would say, uh-uh, or ouch...and then I would present the toy. When she took the toy, I would say "yes!" very excitedly followed up with "good girl" or "good toy". Perhaps, after awhile, your puppy will learn to go get a toy when he greats you or wants to do something with you....that's what my girl does now. If you don't have time to play, you could present a chew bone instead....my dogs favorites are Bully Sticks and big elk knuckle bones. Find stuff your dog loves....rather than your body. 

Good luck!!

PS ~ you can't just give a toy and expect them to go off and have a great time....you have to actually play with the dog. When you can't play with your dog, try the bone or a long walk. Sounds like he might be bored and needing to burn off some energy. ??


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Sorry Erika. I admit she ticked me off with the constant attacks. I wondered if I should have said what I had to say to her in a private message instead of hijacking your thread. 
Meanwhile I hope Chester will stop biting soon for his own good, yours and the kids who visit.


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## leesooim (Nov 1, 2012)

KatieBlue'sMidnightSky said:


> PS ~ you can't just give a toy and expect them to go off and have a great time....you have to actually play with the dog. When you can't play with your dog, try the bone or a long walk. Sounds like he might be bored and needing to burn off some energy. ??


That's true. If you're responding to my post where I said we walk away after giving her a toy, it's because our breeder and trainer strongly recommended not to be on the floor with her too much at this age since it puts us on the same level as her on the totem pole, so to speak. So our moving away would really mean walking 3 feet over to the couch or something since we do play with her with her toys, but try to minimize our time on the floor.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

It seems as though their are varying degrees of biting. With Bella, her jaws were literally going non-stop whenever you got near her from the 2-3 to 3.5 month mark. She would even jump up to reach your hands if you were standing or walking. She did not want whatever toy we tried to use to redirect. She wanted our hands and arms. It was seriously hard to even be in the same room with her. I would imagine as well that some puppies respond to various methods better than others. Apparently, some of them don't even bite often, if ever. In those instances, of course redirecting or simply saying "yelp" is a better option. However, I routinely see people complaining that they've tried all of that, and their now 70 lb puppy still bites enough to leave bruises and break skin. IMO, for the safety of your family, friends, neighbors, and your dog, you have an obligation to do what is necessary to put a stop to it. 


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"Time out: seems to be the only thing that works for us, but at least right now doesn't seem terribly useful in teaching her not to put teeth on people at all yet."

You are spot on time out doesn't teach them what you want them to do. The problem is once the pup is over excited they don't hear you. They are in their own little zone. So, that isn't the time to train them. As I said in my first post when they are over excited just put them in the crate and let them calm down. The crate isn't used as a punishment it is a management tool so they cannot practice inappropriate behaviors. And learn bad habits.

The training happens at other times when the pup is in a much better state of mind. It takes about 500 "good" repetitions to get a solid behavior. 

This week when I was teaching a private my student said but my dog does sit when I ask him in the kitchen so he knows the command. I asked the student can your dog sit when you ask him to (at the sidewalk curb outside the house, at the park, when other dogs walk by, at school, at the doggie store, etc. She said he doesn't listen at those places and times. The simple answer is the dog really doesn't know the command yet. Many dogs don't generalize well and need the practice in many situations building up on the distractions and their actual excitement level in the process of training. By doing the training in calm slow increments it builds up muscle memory in the dog and eventually these commands/cues become almost automatic and they don't have to think to do them. This is when the dog knows the cue/command.

By attempting to train the pup/dog when they are over excited we just frustrate ourselves and frustrate them and no learning takes place.


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky (Feb 22, 2011)

Oh got it! That makes sense...I remember that tip now about not being on the floor at their level. We did that method too sometimes, and put all together with other stuff we did, worked. Gosh, it's so hard raising a puppy. Worth it, but so hard! 

You probably already know this....but consistent use of marker words, both positive and negative, should begin to work. "No!" "uh-uh" "Yes!" I wonder if clicker training might work...rewarding the dog for not mouthing. Catching him being good and rewarding that behavior. The word "Yes!" can be used instead of the clicker of course...or do both. hahaha! Sorry....just throwing stuff out there.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Sorry Erika. I admit she ticked me off with the constant attacks. I wondered if I should have said what I had to say to her in a private message instead of hijacking your thread.
> Meanwhile I hope Chester will stop biting soon for his own good, yours and the kids who visit.


Not a she. I'll leave the rest of your rubbish alone for now. Have a great day. 


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I posted this on another thread about how my DD had to find her voice and posture with Rose. It cost her a night of redoing an entire chapter of AP Euro History.

One thing those "little monsters" know is when we mean business and when we don't. And I am not talking about frustration but the way we command them to do something. And when I say the way we command is both voice and posture. Women are at a disadvantage because of the soft high pitched voice which many times the puppies hear as play time and do not take seriously, it actually makes them even more excited. And if you can't find that voice and posture, you just have to wait out for them to grow and then hope and pray that they will try to please you when you do get frustrated. 
Think of bootcamp, think of military trainers: repetitive stiff, stern and short commands. Followed of course by motherly good praises and treats. 
Recently Joyce (Bentleysmom) posted about poor little sweet Bentley going to boot camp. And it has to be the way it is meant. 
Each dog is different not just by breed but even in the same breed, each puppy has it's own personality. We get them at 8 weeks and from there on we try to figure out their personality. 
As my DH says - he has never had a golden like Rose. 

She is smart and eager to please. You show a little frustration and she really tried to figure out what she did and how to correct it. 

Example: I was trying to teach her to retrieve the bumper and come around me while holding it, sit in a heel position with the bumper held tight and straight in her mouth. She kept on dropping it by my feet and them come around to my left. On Sunday I was just exasperated. I said NO, HOLD IT and then do it. Well, when I yelled like that I knew it was time to quit. I took the bumper threw it in the hunting box. I was mad because I got frustrated and I was mad because I had no clue how to make her understand what I wanted. She came to me all lovey dovey, slept on my bed all night. The next morning, I cringed but still got the bumper out of the box. There she was trotting and happy waiting for me to throw it and give the command to go get it. Hesitantly she got it, came back around and held the darn bumper. I did not breath, I did not say a word, I did not move a nano-millimeter the whole time. 

But at the same time she is stubborn and sneaky. 

Example: Last night she was in one bedroom licking a pair of pants hanging off the bed. I looked at her and she put her head down on the floor as if she was sleeping. I look at the TV she moves her head back to the pants. So I get up, she quickly goes under the bed just her head and eyes out as if to tell me that she has been there the entire time and I am crazy to think that her tongue was near those pants, after all it has been snowing outside. 

Why am I giving these silly examples? Because that is who she is in a little nutshell. Me being upset and frustrated was enough for her to search that brain and figure out how to do it while I was figuring out how to tell her what I want. No prong, jerking, squirting or e-collar was necessary. If I did that I would have lost her trust in me and she would not try to please. 

Two months ago she was still confined in the hallway for about 3 hours at 5 months. Well no matter what chewing stuff she had she decided to go for the wood trim. (Silently I was happy because now I finally have an excuse to change it). I would come home and I would say OH NO, WHAT DID YOU DO! THAT IS BAD! She would quickly go into the kitchen since the pet gate was opened and come back with her head down and sat by me licking me as if trying to tell me "Sorry mom I just couldn't help it!" I tried bitter apple one day, moved up to bitter yuck the next day. All I got was diarrhea and more chewed up trim. So my fear was that she will hurt herself chewing that wood. I told DH - we need to get a crate maybe these new methods using a crate do have a purpose. His response - Over my dead body will you cage "Precious". So I went the opposite direction. Instead of using a crate I opened the bedroom. Moved all the plants out, made sure there was nothing but the furniture and the bedding there for her to get into. (And no I like my bedroom furniture and did not plan on getting a new set). One weekend, I left the bedroom door open, open the window curtains and left the house. I came back after 30 minutes - nothing. I left again and came back after an hour and a half - nothing. The next day it was a Sunday I left again and came back in 3 hours - nothing. 
So from there on she has been allowed alone in the house with the bedrooms doors opened for 3 - 4 hours a day from the age of 6 months on. And she is more tired when I get home, because she watched the birds outside, the neighbors walking by with or without their dogs, she sees the cars - and all that seems to keep her quite preoccupied. Each day I add more things to expose her to and try to test her on. I added one book on the nightstand, I added a picture on the dresser, I added the lamp back on, I added the throw back on the bed, I left the laptop on the bed. 

I admit upfront, I am not a good dog reader and I am happy to have DH who since 1972 has gone thru several puppies and at one time had an entire litter of puppies in the house. I am learning myself to find that fine line between being the bootcamp trainer and the motherly reward giver. I may be an outdated, old fashion in my approach but always remember that even the best trainers of today still refer and build on what the old fashion guys have set as a platform. 
I do not agree that the zoomies are fun and do not allow them inside or outside. Zoomie to me means time out for the puppy in order to find its shut off button and then he/she can come back out. As Solinvictus says at those times everything is out the window, they don't hear you, they don't see you.


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## Roushbabe (Feb 20, 2011)

A lot of good information on here with different ideas on how to go about it. I too am noticing Keisel getting more mouthy. I'm a huge Cesar Milan fan so when he acts up I stand straight up with a calm and assertive attitude and say 'no'. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't I just tap his side to get his attention and then say no. It's been working only when Keisel is low-medium level excitement. I agree that if they are above that level - it's useless and only a cause of frustration for you. I'm trying to find a way to calm him down because putting him in the crate is rubbing me the wrong way. Probably because I already know the consequences when the puppy relates the crate to something negative. 

I hope in the next few puppy classes, watching a few more YouTube videos mentioned here and trying them with Keisel, something will click for him. When that does happen - I will use that same method only and be consistent. I did feed him tonight and said gentle.. it took him a good 5 minutes but he finally got it. I'm hoping with repetitions of that will help him during play and I say 'gentle'. 

Claudia - interesting opinion about the 'zoomies'. I do think it's cute as a puppy but always thought if it was healthy for them to expend their energy in that manner. It's the highest level of excitement which in my eyes should only be exerted when I say so, not when he feels like it. Also makes me think how 'cute' it will be when he's another 20-40lbs heavier and running into things... yikes!

Please keep us updated Erika on your progress and any feedback you get with trying whatever method you decide to do!!


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I assume she can hear me during zoomies, because if I say "hungry," she stops in her tracks, and sits down by her dish. 


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Roushbabe: I've had adult dogs get the zoomies. You just stay out of their way. I think it's natures way of getting rid of a lot of energy. Besides that, I love the smile they get when they're doing it


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Bear gets bratty if he gets the zoomies inside. If i try to quell it, its just a disaster, so now at 9 pm i go outside with a flashlight and we run around for 40 minutes. By the end of it, he's ready for some pre-bed chewing and we're both exhausted. 


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I love zoomies. 

I love training cue's using a whisper (or just very low and soft spoken) to change things up. The dog really has to pay attention to hear you.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Roushbabe I would suggest getting the DVD by Susan Garrett "Crate Games". 

My dog loves his crate. At home he chooses to go in it himself. It is funny when my sons 2 labs are here there are times when someone chooses to be in the crate and someone else wants in. 

I never put my dog into the crate as a punishment/correction. Using the crate games to train, I have a dog that will willingly go in to the crate when I ask him. You can teach a lot of impulse control using the crate.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Roushbabe, in my view the zoomies are a reaction to fear and stress of the new things they are exposed to. They don't know how to deal with it and they zoom zoom around the house and yard. Sort of like the tamper tantrums on a two year old. Do you allow them to continue or do you give them a time out to sort it out. Do you encourage a tamper tantrum or do you try to put a stop to it. 
In my view the more you encourage the behavior the more you will pay down the road. The puppy need to find it's own shut off button, just like that terrible two year old who you sent to the corner to find out why he was put there in the first place. 

Not counting that while they run the zoomies they can easily injure themselves. 
If you google it you will also find different opinions on it just like on this forum. I tend to agree with the temper tantrum analogy.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

solinvictus said:


> I love zoomies.
> 
> I love training cue's using a whisper (or just very low and soft spoken) to change things up. The dog really has to pay attention to hear you.


Sorry to disagree but if you say the dog cannot hear you during mouthy play time you really say that the pup hears you whisper during zoomie time?


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

Temper tantrum? Are you serious? Happy & playful. 

Dogs don't have temper tantrums, people do.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

No I just love zoomies. I don't whisper during them. I giggle. I was making two completely different comments. The zoomies I have seen look like happy excitement and a way to burn up that excess energy.
If I saw a zoomie that looked like it was due to fears and uncertainty I would redirect the pup and give them a different outlet to calm themself. So far the ones I have seen looked very joyful.

Speaking in a whisper or a soft voice is all about teaching (training) my dog to follow the cue's I ask for whether I speak in a normal voice a whisper or I sing. I want my dog to be able to handle what ever is happening at the moment so I try to train for it in advance.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Bella usually gets the zoomies after coming in the house from a walk. I'd say about 2-3 time per week. If I let her run around in the back yard first, she generally doesn't do it. I think it's pent up energy.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> Temper tantrum? Are you serious? Happy & playful.
> 
> Dogs don't have temper tantrums, people do.


I especially love seeing his tongue hanging out of the side of his mouth during zoomies. 

Bear does sass me sometimes. Like when i ask him to "down" and he doesn't want to. I get grumbles. But he still lays down. 


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

Exactly, an energy release that generally results in a crashed dog. What's wrong with that?


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"Dogs don't have temper tantrums, people do."

I believe dogs act out in inappropriate manners usually in frustration. I would equate them with a child's temper tantrum.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

All I see is pure joy and happiness when Molly has zoomies. She LOVES the snow and we go once a week. She will have zoomies when we arrive every single time.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I guess I need to know exactly what constitutes "zoomies." If it's running around the yard jumping over and under things non-stop for 15 minutes, I guess she has them much more often than 2-3 times per week. I amazed at the endurance she shows during these.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Bentleysmom said:


> Roushbabe: I've had adult dogs get the zoomies. You just stay out of their way. I think it's natures way of getting rid of a lot of energy. Besides that, I love the smile they get when they're doing it


Max still gets the "zoomies." Sometimes, inside, other times, outside. I see it as a release/burst of energy. Usually over quickly. A fun thing--at least with Max, as well as every other dog we have had.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Nairb said:


> I guess I need to know exactly what constitutes "zoomies." If it's running around the yard jumping over and under things non-stop for 15 minutes, I guess she has them much more often than 2-3 times per week. I amazed at the endurance she shows during these.


Molly runs in circles at full speed for a few minutes. The frequency has decreased with age but recently it has gone back up.. probably has to do being a teenager and having a lot more energy.

The first time I brought her off leash hiking in the woods and she literally had zoomies 5 times during the entire hike. I loved seeing her so happy.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Molly runs in circles at full speed for a few minutes. The frequency has decreased with age but recently it has gone back up.. probably has to do being a teenager and having a lot more energy.
> 
> The first time I brought her off leash hiking in the woods and she literally had zoomies 5 times during the entire hike. I loved seeing her so happy.


Our back yard is like an obstacle course, so she's having to run under and over stuff, around stuff, etc. It's made me wonder about trying agility, but she might be a little big for that. Most of those dogs are small and wiry.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Here is my Sunny. It was a play bow that ended up in full blown zoomies. 









Down the walk, across the patio, around the pool, behind the deck and back down the path.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

One thing I would like to remind. The puppies are still growing and their are prone to HD. While it may be cute to watch them run like crazy with their tongues out do you think it is good for their growing legs, bones, elbows and hips? Do you let your kids run like that? Interesting how dogs should not run, jump until they are older but it is OK to run uncontrollably during the zoomies. I just cannot see the difference.
I personally see a difference between controlled exercise including running and let the puppy run like crazy in the house or outside. Also allow mental stimulation during the day by letting them watch out the window or patio door (believe it or not that does tire them).


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Max's Dad said:


> .... I see it as a release/burst of energy. Usually over quickly. A fun thing--at least with Max, as well as every other dog we have had.


I agree... and I don't encourage it inside because of our hardwood floors (too slippery), but outside, I think it's wonderful and as long as he's not running into a person, I won't ever discourage it. And yes, I'm all for children having 'zoomies' outside too  In fact, I have a kindergartener who would probably be a lot easier to manage if I gave her more encouragement for outdoor zooms herself. Burn off the excess energy


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

My dogs have all been raised on a combination of tile. hardwood and carpet. They all get zoomies occasionally, both in and out of the house. Jack has OFA Good Hips and Normal elbows. Kira and Smooch both prelimed normal on their elbows, Kira's hips were good and smooch's prelimed excellent. I really don't think zoomies are going to cause HD or ED, if they did all of our dogs would have HD or ED. Especially Jack, he loves to get the zoomies in the morning when we wake up....just SO excited to start the day apparently  Our Chloe who has moderate HD was born that way, it was nothing that we did. And FWIW, she was the one who rarely got the zoomies and played the least as a puppy, likely because she was experiencing pain in her hips. 

IMO zoomies are a very normal thing for a golden. I think it's hysterical to watch and they seem to enjoy it...no problem for me


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## xoerika620xo (May 25, 2012)

Hi everyone!

Wow this thread has really grown since yesterday lol. Thank you once again to the replies. Today I believe things are looking a little better. I have gotten a lot of replies in this thread and a lot of private messages. One particular Private message really caught my attention and i decided before i try any other extreme method I would go with a more not to extreme. Today, As usual he was his normal land shark self but i did what i was told to do and to my surprise it seems like he understands. Once i give him the "no no" he knows hes doing something wrong and it seems like he does the "soft bite" which I don't mind. It seems like there is hope for my boy and i =) I'm so happy I'm able to come onto this thread and get great advice without you guys i dont know how i would survive this puppy life.


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

Erika,

I'm glad you are getting some good advice and trust me I'm taking notes for myself. I think every dog, just like every kid is different and what may work for one will not for another. It would be great if this was a "one size fits all" for training. Again I'm glad you started it...that's what I love about the forum....so many knowledgable and helpful people....


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I am so so glad Erika. Yay for Chester!!!! 
I did not PM you as I did not want to appear pushy. After all, I already expressed my opinions here. 

I will do a little reminder though 
"Practice makes it perfect!"


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

To keep my dogs or kids from ever running around, or doing "zoomies," I would need to keep them all on leashes full time. How ridiculous would that be.....


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

solinvictus said:


> No I just love zoomies. I don't whisper during them. I giggle. I was making two completely different comments. The zoomies I have seen look like happy excitement and a way to burn up that excess energy.
> If I saw a zoomie that looked like it was due to fears and uncertainty I would redirect the pup and give them a different outlet to calm themself. So far the ones I have seen looked very joyful.
> 
> Speaking in a whisper or a soft voice is all about teaching (training) my dog to follow the cue's I ask for whether I speak in a normal voice a whisper or I sing. I want my dog to be able to handle what ever is happening at the moment so I try to train for it in advance.


here is an opinion, more detailed with responses. Would love to hear your take on it. 

Why Do Dogs Zoom-zoom-zoom Around the House? « The Official Natural Dog Training Website: News, Discussions, Advice, Training Tips and Techniques from Kevin Behan


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

I can honestly say that Sage's zoomies do not in any way look like she is afraid. I get what the author is describing I've seen dogs run in fear....this is not what her's looks like. IDK...All my dogs, Cockers to lab mix did them. Maggie would get them when DH came home, he was HER person and she was excited to see him. I've never associated them with something bad....


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

"(Postscript: The comments from some readers of this post indicate a degree of offense by my insertion of fear into the behavior of zoom-zooming. The term seems to immediately imply that their dog is flawed and afraid of things, and this may seem puzzling for it is typically the “friendliest” of dogs that are most likely to do the most zooming. In most people’s minds fear is linked to trauma but in the natural scheme of things fear is what adds intensity to behavior, and in this sense it generic, a function of a dog’s constitution. In other words, all dogs acquire fear simply in the course of being alive and conscious and then this goes on to be manifested in their most intense expressions of behavior. So there is nothing wrong with a dog that zoom-zoom-zooms, simply that this fear needs to be “grounded” so that the intensity can be harnessed for cooperative purposes rather than left to the dog’s instincts to find a way for it to be discharged.)" From Kevin Behan.

The trainer is talking about every day fears and stress. And he does not view them in a negative way, or that the pup is flawed, scared, frightened - see his above disclosure.  If you look thru the 54 comments he does into more detail as he responds - one is a gr owner.


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

I thought it was a temper tantrum.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Claudia, thanks for the link. I did look at the comments to the golden retriever owner. I don't have his expertise and years of experience. At this point by my own experience the dogs I have seen doing zoomies have been full of joy. Again, if at any time I felt that a pup or dog was acting out in fear I would redirect them. In some of the comments he thought that the owners were chasing their dogs which I agree isn't something I would do whether they were doing zoomies or not. 
In the picture of my dog he started his zoomies by offering a play bow at my son. Then proceeded to run like a crazy fool. Eventually running to my son to engage him in play.
I do believe that zoomies are a way of releasing stress and pent up energy. I have only seen it with a happy dog. As long as it can be done safely I see no reason not to let them do it.

Relieving stress can be a good thing. Us humans may listen to music, dance to music, work out, jog, run or read a good book. Children play games, sports, or just run around to relieve their day to day stress.

I do believe in using controled games to relieve stress in our dogs but sometimes it can be good for them to let their fur down.  

I think it is awesome that you brought our attention to this so that all of us are made more aware to watch our dogs during zoomies so we can redirect our dogs to something more constructive if we see that the zoomie isn't doing what we like for our dog.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Erika,

Thanks for the update. As we all know everything we do takes time.  I hope things continue to improve. Many good threads seem to spiral out away from the original subject but I love how much we can learn and examin new thoughts and ways of doing things.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

The reason I pointed to the GR poster was due to his response in defining fear not in a negative way as it is often interpreted and like his movie roller coaster analogy. There are other responses from the trainer that I found quite interesting. I don't agree with everything he says like the dog should not sleep on the bed  but it certainly offers a different view on our pups. 
He is one of the oldies (he has trained for over 50 years).
Maddie - I view the temper tantrum in the same way, a way for a two year old to express their fear, frustration or stress.


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

Beamer, at almost 2, still can be mouthy at times if I get him wound up and wanting to play. I don't mind it too much since he is just playing and I let him know when enough is enough.


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

I went back and read the comments. I think in some ways I agree with him but in others not so much. There definately are times I would say that Sage is expending pent up energy and that she zoomies out of frustration/over stimulation etc....but there are also times that it is just pure joy IMO...they do look different and I do distract her from the ones I feel are out of frustration...but I'm sorry when I let her outside and it's snowing and she lifts her face to the snow and starts to play and then run around....I don't see that as fear or frustration...I can call her and she will come during these times. When she has the other kind, she doesn't listen nor does she seem to care. 

I do appreciate this conversation though as I have learned from it.... I will do some more reading on it, perhaps I will change my mind. I've had dogs for 20 years, Sage is my first Golden though, they all zoomied they all were great dogs...Perhaps it is for them like me, if I get anxious I have to move and that calms me down...but sometimes I like to move for the pure joy of moving...if that makes sense...hmmm things to ponder..lol


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> There is a HUGE difference between aggressive biting and play bite. There is a huge difference between dog aggression and bite inhibition.
> What Erika describes is not dog aggression - is an excited puppy who doesn't know what to do with his mouth.


Play biting can be just as dangerous. Ask my doctor who put in 5 stitches on my finger:

Every dog and situatin is different, what works for one won't for another. Lemons, mouth spray, teaching to kiss instead of bite....etc. Find what works and stick with it.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

What you are describing where the pups runs around and then comes back to when called and then you play with the snow or simply jump and make them run around again - I don't think are the zoomies. They are play runs in my view and you do control them by calling them back and sending them back for another run. I love it when Rose does that. 

I guess it does come to everyone's def and interpretation of zoomie. As in my first post about them I tried to describe them as the uncontrollable runs where they do not listen or come back to you.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Play biting can be just as dangerous. Ask my doctor who put in 5 stitches on my finger:
> 
> Every dog and situatin is different, what works for one won't for another. Lemons, mouth spray, teaching to kiss instead of bite....etc. Find what works and stick with it.


It can be particularly dangerous if you have children who's faces are within striking distance of a nippy, jumping puppy. Ask my wife who use to work in the emergency room at a children's hospital.


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## Jen & Brew (Oct 11, 2012)

Nairb said:


> It can be particularly dangerous if you have children who's faces are within striking distance of a nippy, jumping puppy. Ask my wife who use to work in the emergency room at a children's hospital.


Oh yes! I have a nice scar above my eye, I was 5 years old and mouth hight. 1/2 inch lower and I would have lost my eye.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> What you are describing where the pups runs around and then comes back to when called and then you play with the snow or simply jump and make them run around again - I don't think are the zoomies. They are play runs in my view and you do control them by calling them back and sending them back for another run. I love it when Rose does that.
> 
> *I guess it does come to everyone's def and interpretation of zoomie. As in my first post about them I tried to describe them as the uncontrollable runs where they do not listen or come back to you*.


How about a dog that runs around the house and bounces off walls and furniture like a ping pong ball? That's what Wyatt "TRYS" to do inside. I stop it as soon as he starts it. He can clearly "hear" however I have to body block him in order for him to stop. He is not allowed to do it in the house because it is too dangerous. He doesn't do it too much anymore as he is finally getting it and I can pretty much stop him before it gets out of control.

Outside is free game. He is pushing 3years old. My Cody still had zoomies every once in awhile all the way up until he died at almost 11. I'm going with over excited and energy that needs to be burnt up. At least in my dogs.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Jen & Brew said:


> Oh yes! I have a nice scar above my eye, I was 5 years old and mouth hight. 1/2 inch lower and I would have lost my eye.


Kids tend to like to get down at eye level when petting and playing with puppies. As much as you try to teach them the right way, they don't listen 100% of the time. My 10 year old son does a good job with it, my 8 year old daughter....not so much.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Nairb said:


> It can be particularly dangerous if you have children who's faces are within striking distance of a nippy, jumping puppy. Ask my wife who use to work in the emergency room at a children's hospital.


And elderly people who are unstable on their feet. I was always on needles and pins when my father in law came to visit.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

If I didn't have young kids in the house, I might have looked at the play biting thing as a non-issue. The safety of my kids comes first. Furthermore, I don't need to get sued, and for my dog to get put down because some neighbor kid doesn't know the proper way to pet a puppy. I will argue to the end of time, that its best to encourage no teeth on the skin. Others are certainly free to do as they choose. 


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Play biting can be just as dangerous. Ask my doctor who put in 5 stitches on my finger:
> 
> Every dog and situatin is different, what works for one won't for another. Lemons, mouth spray, teaching to kiss instead of bite....etc. Find what works and stick with it.


The reason for that post Wyatt's mom was due to the fact that the difference between aggressive biting and play biting should be also addressed differently. 

And even if it was an aggressive biting I would not recommend ANYONE to use those measures but to go to a trainer and behavior specialist and seek instruction. 

*I have already expressed my opinion on using lemon spray or whatever other extreme measures to correct play biting. *

I will kindly not repeat them again.


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## Dwyllis (Nov 22, 2012)

I've been following this thread with interest, right the way through. I guess I am in the 'every person's home situation is different, so one has to do what works best for them' camp. Loki did not respond to the Ouch yelp .....he grew even more excited & got even more mouthy & those sharp baby teeth hurt, & my poor DH, who has thin skin, was left wounded & bleeding on arms, legs & hands more than once ....also got bitten on his ear when Loki leapt at his face when poor man was sitting on the sofa ....that left him bleeding too. He was convinced Loki was aggressive. The louder our voices got, the more we said No Bite, the more excited he became. Timeout in his ex-pen worked for him, as he hated being away from us ....usually just a couple of mins, but once it took fifteen, & after that he more or less stopped. I would let him know I was not happy with him at all & tell him No Bite! Timeout! That worked so well for us & now if he is misbehaving, I only have to say Timeout? & he will immediately trot off to find a toy to play with. Now I do let him mouth me from time to time & tell him !Gentle' & it usually is fine. What worked on conjunction with that, was to watch closely for the first sign of his mouth opening near my skin, & then I would immediately cease all interaction for a short spell. He was around 14 -15 weeks old when he stopped. Very few probs now. Glad you are finding a way with your pup, Erika.


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