# Dirty little secret



## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

I was asked from Jodie to share so here goes....I train with a pinch collar. I know it is my horrible dirty secret...From day one I have used one because I refuse to pull and yank on my dog. I have hardly ever corrected from it and when I do it is a quick pop and release and then praise. I don't believe in withholding food and jackpotting. If you can do that great but I want my dog’s head on me in the ring and not worried what is outside waiting. I see a lot of dogs heading for the opening between exercises wanting to get their food...go outs I send him to a clear plastic dowel every time and we learned that between ropes. I drug those things everywhere we went LOL. I used to be teased about it but that's fine with me. I would not change his go outs. My articles were tied down on a mat and more were introduced after we were sure he understood. I also hauled that mat everywhere with all the articles attached. I took them off only after he could do it other places successfully. I scent with a hot scent. Just rubbing my hands together and then I make sure to get the scent down on that article by spinning my article in that hand. I treat fronts off and on and never use anything more that a Charlie because then he is more concerned about the treats than where he is and what he is supposed to be doing. We play a little tug with the leash before we go in and have from day one. The leash is always with us.
Oh and I used a flexi lead to train most of the retrieving and jumping.
He loves to be in the ring showing and most that have seen it would agree. He is really really loves the motel room too....as you can see winning this weekend was a tough job!
Whew...:--keep_silent:


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Thanks for sharing. 

Can you elaborate on the dowel part, I can't picture it! Is it vertical or horizontal? On the ground or the fencing? How do you attach it? And what is it made out of?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> My articles were tied down on a mat and more were introduced after we were sure he understood. I also hauled that mat everywhere with all the articles attached. I took them off only after he could do it other places successfully.


Does this mean all of the "wrong" articles were tied down so there was only one item that he could actually pick up? 

That's pretty smart. 

I've always wondered how people teach their dog to differentiate between articles, especially if you've handled all of them while putting them down.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

RedDogs said:


> Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Can you elaborate on the dowel part, I can't picture it! Is it vertical or horizontal? On the ground or the fencing? How do you attach it? And what is it made out of?


I sell them. It is clear plastic acyrlic about 6 inches long. I put them on both ends of the ring parallel to the uprights.I can take a picture tonight at class. In the beginning I take him out with me so he can see they are there and then send him. If I don't tell him to sit it is a retrieve and he has to fetch it and then bring it back. I usually send three times and two of them are each directed jump and then he gets to fetch. If I think he is pulling up trying to help us get to it faster then it is a retrieve. I have not had him pull up short yet..(knocking on wood!) and if we get to do run throughs they are out there too.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Megora said:


> Does this mean all of the "wrong" articles were tied down so there was only one item that he could actually pick up?
> 
> That's pretty smart.
> 
> I've always wondered how people teach their dog to differentiate between articles, especially if you've handled all of them while putting them down.


 You don't handle the clean articles.. When I do a run though I drop mine out of the bag and arrange mine with my feet or tongs..


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks for sharing!!! I was hoping for one dirty little secret and was very excited to see how much you shared 

And he looks like he deserved that rest


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Titan1 said:


> You don't handle the clean articles.. When I do a run though I drop mine out of the bag and arrange mine with my feet or tongs..


:doh:

I guess that makes sense. I know they pour the articles out of the bag, but I thought that the trainers pick them up by hand afterwards. <-= It could be they use tongs and I just didn't notice, because I don't always get a chance to watch article training. 

But you tie the clean articles down or keep them tied down and only place the handled article?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

:thanks: :kiss:

Glad you shared with us!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I do touch my unscented articles, but only on the ends. My dogs are taught to smell the bar. They've never had a problem with that. But I would never touch the bar, that would totally confuse my dogs.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

You evil bad person, shame shame. Now when are you coming down to FL because I must schedule a private lesson to witness this abuse first hand


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> You evil bad person, shame shame. Now when are you coming down to FL because I must schedule a private lesson to witness this abuse first hand


I want to come too!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I've said before that deciding how to train go-outs is something that keeps me up at night. I keep going back and forth between a touch or a retrieve.

I like the touch because if my dog ever did stop short in the ring I would have something I could make it go to in the actual ring. What I don't like is the touch itself isn't all that self-rewarding so I have to do more to make the dog _want_ to touch.

I like the retrieve because it's much more self-reinforcing. But it makes me a little nervous because I've been watching a big name handler that uses the retrieve struggle with a dog that consistently stops short in trials.

I'm considering maybe making the default a retrieve, unless told to sit, and having a third option of a touch (like maybe 1 in 20 be a touch) just so I'd have a backup option in the ring. I like the clear plastic dowel idea. I don't want to use the wood dowels like most people because I don't want to have to deal with mouthing issues. I've also seen clear tubing used.

Why do I have to make this so difficult? Maybe I should just trust my dog to be able to do what I teach it.

Michelle do you have Titan sit after he gets the dowel or come back to you?


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I've said before that deciding how to train go-outs is something that keeps me up at night. I keep going back and forth between a touch or a retrieve.
> 
> I like the touch because if my dog ever did stop short in the ring I would have something I could make it go to in the actual ring. What I don't like is the touch itself isn't all that self-rewarding so I have to do more to make the dog _want_ to touch.
> 
> ...


I have him come back. No sit. I will usually go with two sits and then he gets to do the fetch (the reward!) if I think he is trying to pull up short I can tell him fetch quietly..He really has not tried pulling up short at a show.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> I've said before that deciding how to train go-outs is something that keeps me up at night. I keep going back and forth between a touch or a retrieve.
> 
> I like the touch because if my dog ever did stop short in the ring I would have something I could make it go to in the actual ring. What I don't like is the touch itself isn't all that self-rewarding so I have to do more to make the dog _want_ to touch.


Hmmm.
I just had a little epiphany.
Using the TOUCH in the context you've detailed here -- using it mainly so you have a backup in the ring, that while you of course would fail, you'd have an ability to effectively train and correct the dog in the ring by telling him to "touch" if he stops too soon. 
This is a pop. What you are doing by telling him TOUCH in the ring -- and even if he then does it perfectly -- is feeding into it, reinforcing it, and rewarding the dog with the information he so desperately seeks.
In field work, dogs pop (turn around and look at the handler without being prompted to) because they lack confidence and seek feedback and direction from the handler. If you then handle (tell the dog where to go) or do nothing and wait for the dog to turn and continue on his own -- you are giving the dog exactly what he wants -- information. Direction. You are REWARDING the pop. Just like telling the dog to "touch" in the ring is REWARDING him for stopping too short. 
In other words -- you are actively training to reward the dog to fail.
I have seen many people perform this in the utility ring and to me, it seems to be a self-fulfilling cycle of failure.
No I don't have the answer but I really don't like what teaching this and using it sets up.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

So the "dirty secret" is the prong collar? I have used a micro prong, but as I said in another thread, I am grateful I found another more positive way. My first golden was so soft that if I thought about correcting her with the choke it would take many training sessions to rehabilitate that. I, literally, as a Novice A person(20 years ago) taught her to heel by my pant seam, by simply saying "heel" and she knew where to be. She didn't heel with her head craned toward me, but she was a beautiful heeler. And when I taught her the stays, she intuitively stayed in the sit or the down when I told her to. My second golden was trained to heel with attention using a prong collar. I don't think it ever hurt her and the "pops" were definitely motivating to her. My gripe with prong collars, for example, is that when you are in a match and your dog starts to lag, how is jerking the prong or any collar, really, going to help? What is motivating for the dog?
I believe in preempting behavior, not trying to "fix" it after the fact. With my first dog from Novice A, who went on to get her CDX(and then I had children with a full time job and a horse to take care of), I was told by a woman with OTCH border collies that if I didn't pinch my dog's ear, I would never have a reliable retrieve. None of the 3 with CDX's(and one of them had a UD) EVER failed to retrieve the dumbbell. I believe in training, you need to do what sits with your belief system. And as I have said in the past, OTCH's, UDX's, that's not where I am headed.

And the OTCH person I train with, teaches her dogs to jump out over the ring past the "go out" spot. Her dogs never go short!!!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Sally's Mom said:


> My gripe with prong collars, for example, is that when you are in a match and your dog starts to lag, how is jerking the prong or any collar, really, going to help? What is motivating for the dog?


I think anyone who would approach to "fix" a lagging heeler with jerks on the collar is so far behind the times, a discussion on prong collar vs. not is only the tip of the iceberg. Frankly with modern motivational heeling methods (yes even those using collar pops or other forms of correction) -- lagging is a non-issue.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

But handlers in matches(not AKC sanctioned), do "pop" their dogs to get them in position.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

As far as popping a lagging dog... I think it depends on when it happens. If it's at class and your dog is always falling behind on the outside circle (that's my guy's deal sometimes), I would give a quick pop and go nuts praising him when he gets back up where he needs to be. A quick pop is different from nagging - which is constantly pulling the dog along behind you. 

It depends on the class structure, but I'd even throw a treat ahead or take off running to get him more interested in staying close. 

But even there, I think homework is absolutely necessary - which means going back and retraining each part of that circle to get a full-attention eager heel. So whether you use treats or toys or taking off running, you are teaching your dog to stay in position around the inner or outer circle and keep his focus on you. 

And I do things like "strut" and "go-go" at home. So I'll do a front and then "strut" him back to the starting spot. This is the treat in the left hand and held right in front of his nose, even encouraging him to forge a little. And I sometimes give it to him or toss it for him. 

My problem with the prong is it is very much different from the type of collar you would use in the show ring. Whether you use a regular collar or a choke, there would not be that constant reminder of all of those teeth digging into the dog's neck. 

And it can be too strong for some dogs. I tried it with Jacks because I wanted the more precise sits and heeling that our teacher (who has an OTCH on her dog) wanted us all to attain. She said something to the effect that we were building all the groundwork with our 9 month old puppies that they would need down the road when competing in utility. We weren't just training for novice. 

The collar was too strong for my dog and I did go back to a regular choke chain that just hangs loose around his neck unless I'm correcting him. And I'll be honest here, my guy has been training for novice the past two years. There aren't that many leash corrections. Not because he doesn't need corrections, but he knows what he's doing and responds just fine to my voice.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I think the prong depends mainly on the dog - some will do just fine with a martengale instead, some a buckle. On occasion I've used a nylon choker. 

For Storee, she needs more of a prong to get her to move, she's very reactive to it and it works quite well when I'm using one (the last one I had is toast, time for shopping!) to refine where she is. On a buckle she's a bit too much dog, she'll pull more and so on, but it's worked well for other things if we're not working on heelwork. Mainly the last bit it's been indoors and no collar or leash, just working on doodling in the house and so on. 

Usually I interchange what I'm using, will use the prong for example to do heelwork if I'm specific on something, otherwise it's often (I confess) whatever darn collar the kids haven't taken out of the bag that day!


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Titan1 said:


> I sell them. It is clear plastic acyrlic about 6 inches long. I put them on both ends of the ring parallel to the uprights.I can take a picture tonight at class. .


I hope you were able to get a picture! I'm having a really hard time imagining it! ALL night I've been distracted, not by the found dogs I have, not by my important meetings tomorrow, not by what I was doing at the time....but wondering what exactly this looks like!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Prong? My my my you're so bad


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

If you go back and look at the video I did for Conner's figure 8, at one point he's not paying close enough attention and missed me turning which caused him to lag. I gave him a pop (btw he's on a buckle collar here, if he had been on a prong I would have just used a flick of the wrist) because the lag was due to lack of attention. Watch his reaction. A pop isn't always the answer. It isn't always not the answer either.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

RedDogs said:


> I hope you were able to get a picture! I'm having a really hard time imagining it! ALL night I've been distracted, not by the found dogs I have, not by my important meetings tomorrow, not by what I was doing at the time....but wondering what exactly this looks like!


I forgot completly but I just so happen to have a uprights in my truck and my dowels. I will take a picture and try to post it yet today. I am headed out of state for a funeral...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I just bought some clear acrylic dowels. Thank you Amazon gift cards!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Also, I've been thinking about making a stand-alone stanchion for the past year, but haven't felt like putting enough thought into making one. Any ideas on an easy set-up so I can occasionally throw a couple of stanchions in the car and not have to worry about gates?


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

This is all I'm seeing??!
Amazon.com: Wilton Plastic Dowel Rods: Home & Garden

What did you find and what do non doggy humans use them for?!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I searched under acrylic rod


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I've actually been planning for years to buy a long clear acrylic dowel rod to use with my next dog for the broad jump. I like to occasionally set a dowel under the second board and over the last board (on the side), but I don't like such a visible prop. That will be on my list when I get some more gift cards saved up


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Here you go with the picture. Sorry it took so long..


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

No need to apologize...I realize how trivial the question was... but I could NOT stop thinking about it. THANK you for clearing it up!!!

It's not what I had pictured (somehow attached to the gates).

What is the item really supposed to be used for (...in the non dog world?)


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

RedDogs said:


> No need to apologize...I realize how trivial the question was... but I could NOT stop thinking about it. THANK you for clearing it up!!!
> 
> It's not what I had pictured (somehow attached to the gates).
> 
> What is the item really supposed to be used for (...in the non dog world?)


It is a clear acrylic rod that is used in something to do with plumbing??I think? I found it in 6 ft sections and have them cut into 6 inch sections at work.You can hide it right up against a wall or an upright. You can slide it to the very back of the upright and they can't see it until they get right up there.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> Also, I've been thinking about making a stand-alone stanchion for the past year, but haven't felt like putting enough thought into making one. Any ideas on an easy set-up so I can occasionally throw a couple of stanchions in the car and not have to worry about gates?


I have a broad jump, two baby gates and three uprights in my truck at all times..LOL


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