# white markings



## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I know quite a few goldens with white markings.. lots (including dixie) have some white on their chest..but I have seen white on the head and paws.. the show folks would have a mild cardiac, but who cares... 
anyhow, yes.. you find goldens with some white on them... never known it to hurt em any...


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## natedog91604 (Apr 10, 2006)

Well, not that I am gonna put her on a dog show. I just hope she'd turn out the way i want her to be...a golden retriever. She's our very first dog and I got high expectations. I know i shouldn't but I do.:uhoh: The markings are around her eyes and under her nose and then her paws.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

nate.. just love her and take good care of her.. she is gonna love you whether you meet the mr america standard or not.. do the same for her..


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## LauraEyes2 (Sep 16, 2005)

I think what Greg's saying is that according to the AKC "Breed Standard" they would frown on white markings in the show ring. That doesn't mean that she's any less a golden or there's anything wrong with her. 

I personally think the white markings can be cute and add some extra character. Charlie's face turned white as he got older, but guess that doesnt count !


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

greg bell said:


> the show folks would have a mild cardiac, but who cares...


:lol: Such a way with words, Greg...

I know that doesn't mean they aren't pure. But, yeah, white markings can be disqualifications in show dogs.... Not exactly sure what the rules are there, but I have read about it...


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## heidi_pooh (Feb 9, 2006)

Otto had a white spot right in the middle of his forehead. I thought it was great but it disappeared after a few months. Sometimes when the sun hits him a certain way you can still kinda make it out. He also has white on his paws. He wouldn't be allowed to show but that definately doesn't make him any less of a dog. I think he looks great with his socks.


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

Goldens have been put together from several other breeds. To have white markings is normal,it's just the other breeds pushing through. I've seen Goldens with white masks,toe,boots chest,etc. I've also watched a black Golden as it was being born with both parents purebreed. There are so many color variations, I understand that Goldens in Europe are very light,almost white.
I say Viva La Difference!!! If they were all the same it would be boring.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

My Buck has a tiny white spot on the crown of his head, and his back feet toes are actually white We have althoughts that was one of the most beautiful things about him, When light hits, they look silver. He also has a little patch of white on his chest. My AKC irish Seter had a little tuft of white on his chest, but i understood that would have been okay in the ring--Irish Setters were originally white with red markings.

And I have actually heard about an occasional litter of golden's having a black pup in it, rare, but does happen. I was told--don't know if it is true or not--that that is a throw back to having flat coated retriever in the make-up of goldens,.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

There are plenty of purebred Goldens with some white on them, here's one: http://www.adirondac-goldens.com/drake.htm


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## natedog91604 (Apr 10, 2006)

I hope i didn't sound resentful of having Dixie. I think it's more of the breeder telling me all several things including her being purebred. I just hope that none of those things were lies. I guess i just have to consider her markings her own unique asset instead of burdening my thoughts with negativity. You know, it's a matter of one's point of view whether a glass is half full or half empty kind of thing...... Viva La Difference, right ShaneAmber?


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Unless you're planning on showing or breeding, etc, it really doesn't matter anyway, right? And it sounds like you don't have papers anyway, so those probably aren't realistic options, right?

Samson is purebred, and I've got papers to prove it, but he's gonna be much taller than the standard, which means he'd be disqualified in shows also. But I wouldn't change it for nothing. He's the exact dog I wanted, and the longer I have him, the more that's the case.

The only person who's opinion matters on Dixie is yours....


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## Capehank (Aug 3, 2005)

*White is beautiful*

Here is what my breeder said, " 'Perfect' goldens do not have white, but the goldens that do have white are still pure goldens.' " Teddy and Isabella's mom is pure, dad has white on his feet, both are AKC registered. Both Teddy and Isabella have white on their feet, chest and tail. Izzy has white on her head and face. So, IMHO, goldens that have white are just not "show" quality, but they sure are just as lovable. I like having the white on Izzy, I can tell the pups apart from a distance and not rely on the color of thier collar. :


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

Capehank said:


> Here is what my breeder said, " 'Perfect' goldens do not have white, but the goldens that do have white are still pure goldens.' " Teddy and Isabella's mom is pure, dad has white on his feet, both are AKC registered. Both Teddy and Isabella have white on their feet, chest and tail. Izzy has white on her head and face. So, IMHO, goldens that have white are just not "show" quality, but they sure are just as lovable. I like having the white on Izzy, I can tell the pups apart from a distance and not rely on the color of thier collar. :


I'm sorry, but I hate statements like that.. that perfect goldens don't have white... that is some arbitrary standard.. IMHO, the perfect golden can mark a duck down at well over 150 yards and bust down everything in the way to get to it... they are gentle, tractible, and smart.. they were designed for a purpose, not for a particular look...


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## goldenstaples (Apr 3, 2006)

When we got Phoebe was the first time I had seen white on Goldens and questioned the breeder, they have white on them? Yes he said as if I was crazy!(which I am) Phoebe has white on her chest and a little white on her paw, she got that from her Daddy. I think, like her ,it is Beautiful!


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Natedog: I also get those questions frequently. But I saw both mom and dad on premises when we picked out Brandy, and Brandy was the only one in the litter with all that white, so I know it's possible.


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## Capehank (Aug 3, 2005)

greg bell said:


> I'm sorry, but I hate statements like that.. that perfect goldens don't have white... that is some arbitrary standard.. IMHO, the perfect golden can mark a duck down at well over 150 yards and bust down everything in the way to get to it... they are gentle, tractible, and smart.. they were designed for a purpose, not for a particular look...


It is my understanding we are discussing the color white on the goldens, not the activity being accomplished. Therefore, my statement stands about perfect goldens not having white. IMHO the perfect golden (when not discussing the color) is whatever the owner wishes it to be.


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## goldenstaples (Apr 3, 2006)

I saw Phoebes Mom and Dad on site too! Dad had some white mom did not. Phoebe is registered.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

Capehank said:


> It is my understanding we are discussing the color white on the goldens, not the activity being accomplished. Therefore, my statement stands about perfect goldens not having white. IMHO the perfect golden (when not discussing the color) is whatever the owner wishes it to be.


you are using either 1.) your own opinion or 2) the arbitrary standard used by show folks.. 
either of which you may prefer... you may prefer (personally) that your golden not have white.. but calling one that does less than perfect because of that is just plain nonsense.. what possible difference can it make if a golden has a little white on it?? what possible application would one have for one where white on its paws would be a detriment?... 
there are just a whole bunch of other qualities one looks for in a golden that rank way above whether it has some white on it...


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

The 'no white' is AKC breed standard. It's called a 'fault'. But Brandy is also AKC registered. 

As one dog expert told me, "Why would they specify 'no white' in the breed standard profile if they hadn't seen white happen? It doesn't say 'no black'."

White happens.

Brandy's markings are very obvious because she's otherwise dark red. Ironically, Jenna also has white front paws. But since she's much lighter overall, the paws blend in. And no one ever questions if she's purebred. 

Capehank: It's kind of fun to see that Izzy's markings are so similar to Brandy's!


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## Capehank (Aug 3, 2005)

greg bell said:


> you are using either 1.) your own opinion or 2) the arbitrary standard used by show folks..
> either of which you may prefer... you may prefer (personally) that your golden not have white.. but calling one that does less than perfect because of that is just plain nonsense.. what possible difference can it make if a golden has a little white on it?? what possible application would one have for one where white on its paws would be a detriment?...
> there are just a whole bunch of other qualities one looks for in a golden that rank way above whether it has some white on it...


Greg, if you read my first post and looked at the picture, you would know that both of my goldens have white. I do not care if there is white or not. I just stated what the breeder said to me about the color of the pups. She was just stating that "perfect" meant there was no white in the coat. She did not infer that the puppies would be less than perfect goldens. As mentioned in an earlier post, AKC standard states that if there is white, then it is a fault. That is all she was saying. I am sure we all have perfect goldens because we all know goldens are the best. If you are still confused about what I am trying to state here, then please send me a private message and we can clear this up with out others having to be bothed with the confusion.


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## natedog91604 (Apr 10, 2006)

i read somewhere that goldens whose coat are more of a reddish brown color have increased chances of having those white markings. Dixie's mom is really reddish gold and she has this white markings around her nose. She's AKC. Just to clarify one thing, i don't think less of Dixie. I am just trying to "probe" on the claims made by the breeder when i got her. And with regards to the "perfect" golden, i guess it's all about the dog being perfect for every owner and not for those who'd rather judge them based on the set standards.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

I also questioned the breeder at first. It's natural when your puppy looks different from most of the others. 

You know what? I enjoy the fact that EVERYONE knows Brandy on site -- in part because of her uniqueness. And I happen to think she's gorgeous.

So just enjoy Dixie! And if anyone asks, just repeat what DogMomAbby told me: those white markings are "Angel Kisses".


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## Capehank (Aug 3, 2005)

Everyone who sees our goldens comments that Izzy looks like such a little girl. It is her "Angel Kisses" that do it. I just love the markings.


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## LauraEyes2 (Sep 16, 2005)

Guys, lets not get too heated over word choice. I think what most people agree on is that according to the "AKC Breed Standard" the show-ring "perfect" (if you will) is a golden without white on it. The coloration does not reflect anything on the dog's personality, intelligence, or abilities. 

I've seen many "well-bred" and "showring perfect" dogs out there that are not the greatest pets, or otherwise. To some people looks are important, to most, it's really not. 

AKC registration to my understanding has nothing to do with whether or not the dog meets breed standard. It just means that the dog is bred from purebred parents. My charlie was AKC registered and he was 31" at his shoulder. Way above the breed standard for height, but I loved how big and goofy he was; it was what made him unique. Pet store dogs are usually AKC registered, and i've seen some strange breed variations come from the pet store pets.

Dogs like any other animal can have recessive genetic traits that show up randomly in some offspring or generations, that may not typically appear. There can also be minor pigmentation changes from one animal to the next that make one's coloring different. Even if it's only small markings or spots. 

I like the idea of Angel Kisses. I think the white markings add a little unique character to the dogs. Look at the pictures of everyone's dogs, there's tons of variation, and i'm sure tons that don't meet the AKC breed standard in one way or another. Doesn't bother me...


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Agreed, Laura. But I don't think anyone intends to be argumentative. 

It's a legitimate question to ask: "If a dog doesn't meet breed standards, does that increase the likelihood that it's not purebred?" 

After getting Brandy, I spent a lot of time researching that question because the answer just isn't well documented. 

I think all of us here in this forum appreciate the fact that we love our dogs as much for their uniqueness as for the qualities they share.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

yeah..im pretty defensive about attributing any quality to a dog based on physical appearance..some people get pretty snobbish about "show quality".. 
even Miss America pagents require you to twirl a baton or somthing..


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## Capehank (Aug 3, 2005)

Brandy's Mom said:


> Agreed, Laura. But I don't think anyone intends to be argumentative.
> 
> It's a legitimate question to ask: "If a dog doesn't meet breed standards, does that increase the likelihood that it's not purebred?"
> 
> ...



Very nicely said. Thank you for clearing my statements up.


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## LauraEyes2 (Sep 16, 2005)

Brandy's Mom said:


> Agreed, Laura. But I don't think anyone intends to be argumentative.
> 
> It's a legitimate question to ask: "If a dog doesn't meet breed standards, does that increase the likelihood that it's not purebred?"
> 
> ...


Oh absolutely, I would question it myself as well. It's not something commonly seen, and it surely could be an indication that the dog isn't purebred, although not necessarily.

I dont think people were intending to sound argumentative, but it seemed a few people were starting to get defensive of the subject.


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## natedog91604 (Apr 10, 2006)

We just need to accept variations. Variations are good actually! What makes up a dog is how his owner treats him.  And this kind of discussion is healthy. At least we get various stimulation once in a while. :bowl:


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

me???????????.... argumentative???????????... no way..


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## natedog91604 (Apr 10, 2006)

I understand how people are reacting towards the comments made. We all take pride in taking care of our pets. It's just like someone saying negative about our own kids. Naturally, we become defensive. Anyway, we're all friends here engaging in a HEALTHY discussion about our pets.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

greg bell said:


> I'm sorry, but I hate statements like that.. that perfect goldens don't have white... that is some arbitrary standard.. IMHO, the perfect golden can mark a duck down at well over 150 yards and bust down everything in the way to get to it... they are gentle, tractible, and smart.. they were designed for a purpose, not for a particular look...


I'm sure he didn't mean a perfect golden by OUR standards, but by the breed standard...

I think the perfect golden sleeps at the end of my bed and keeps my feet warm on a chilly night. He can fit three tennis balls in his mouth, and consistently carry two around the house...etc, etc. I don't care about Samson's markings....he's perfect just the way he is....


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

A perfect end to what turned out to be a very educational thread. (Did I hit my 50 characters?)


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Capehank said:


> It is my understanding we are discussing the color white on the goldens, not the activity being accomplished. Therefore, my statement stands about perfect goldens not having white. IMHO the perfect golden (when not discussing the color) is whatever the owner wishes it to be.


I guess I answered too quick...and you're right. But sometimes, people get too serious about the breed standard. If you're not showing your dogs, who really cares anyway, right?


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Like I said earlier, Samson is gonna be much taller than the breed standard, meaning he would be disqualified if I was gonna show him..... But I wouldn't change a thing about him...


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## Capehank (Aug 3, 2005)

RickGibbs said:


> I guess I answered too quick...and you're right. But sometimes, people get too serious about the breed standard. If you're not showing your dogs, who really cares anyway, right?


Exactly! My perfect goldens are hoping to be therapy dogs. But if they can't complete the training, they are therapy for me. :wave:


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## VeronicaLovesHerGoldens (May 27, 2005)

This really did get pretty intense and interesting. If you don't plan on "showing" your dog then you needn't worry about "breed" standards (which I personally find ridiculous!!!) I have a dark red golden with "curly" fur (not considered "show" quality) and a blonde golden who's too tall for "show" quality. Do I love them any less??? Hell no!!! They have great personalities - a little woosy but filled with lots of love and loyalty for their people!!! My only concern would be if I thought the breeder had lied about their pedigrees - especially when you pay so much for them.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

VeronicaLovesHerGoldens said:


> This really did get pretty intense and interesting. If you don't plan on "showing" your dog then you needn't worry about "breed" standards (which I personally find ridiculous!!!)


I totally understand why they have to have the standards in the ring...but too many take them too seriously with no intentions of ever stepping into the ring....


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

Some perfect Goldens(and Sam the Flattie)


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## natedog91604 (Apr 10, 2006)

Awesome looking dogs! But the white mask, if it's already present while Dixie's a puppy, isn't that uncommon for purebred dogs? I was told by the same person who doubted Dixie's breed that white mask is a sign of aging that's why she wonders why my 15 wk old puppy already has white marks on her face and paws. It's like seeing wrinkles on a 2 month old baby!


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

I've seen the white mask on young Goldens,it doesn't mean a Raccoon fathered the litter. It's just some distant genes popping up. As Humans may look simular to their parents,we're all different in some way.
Me,I'm better looking than my Dad and he was great looking!:doh:


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## natedog91604 (Apr 10, 2006)

The dog in your avatar? How old is he/she? He looks very healthy! Such an achievement, huh? Just a funny thought, what if i bleach the dog's white mask? ........... It's just a joke. I'd never do that to her. I'm just wondering if people who compete at dog shows have done this. I can just picture someone panicking upon seeing a white paw or mask on a champion line litter! That person would do everthing to immediately cover it up with bleaching agent and make all puppies perfectly golden!


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

RickGibbs said:


> Samson is purebred, and I've got papers to prove it, but he's gonna be much taller than the standard, which means he'd be disqualified in shows also.





> It's a legitimate question to ask: "If a dog doesn't meet breed standards, does that increase the likelihood that it's not purebred?"


Depending on the breeder, purebred and bred to the standard are totally different things. Dusty is AKC purebred from backyard-bred lines that go back primarily to conformation dogs, he weighs 5+ pounds less than the breed standard, doesn't have nearly enough coat to be considered "perfect" for the show ring, and I think a couple of his teeth aren't grown in enough although I don't know much about dog dentition. Boo is AKC purebred but he is a full 10 pounds lighter than the breed standard, and has a tuck-up like a sighthound whereas the breed standard says no or little tuck-up ...


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

greg bell said:


> yeah..im pretty defensive about attributing any quality to a dog based on physical appearance..some people get pretty snobbish about "show quality"..
> even Miss America pagents require you to twirl a baton or somthing..


I believe that in England dogs have to pass a basic field test to get the full Ch title, although they can get a Show Ch without it. Also the AKC parent club for Labs requires its members to refrain from using Ch before the dogs' names until the dogs pass a WC or equivalent. It would be nice if they all did that ...


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## goldenluffer (May 7, 2006)

hmmm well lots of goldens have some white spots my firneds dog has a white tie on his chest..


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

katieanddusty said:


> I believe that in England dogs have to pass a basic field test to get the full Ch title, although they can get a Show Ch without it. Also the AKC parent club for Labs requires its members to refrain from using Ch before the dogs' names until the dogs pass a WC or equivalent. It would be nice if they all did that ...


yeah, we have worked with some of the lab show folks trying to get the WC on their dogs.. one thing that does, is change attitudes on a lot with them about the field events and what it takes to compete in that stuff.... because we always end up setting up some stuff and showing off with our dogs... I have made good friends with some of them, but I will never agree with them on what they think is important.. but it is interesting.. 
we need more of that..


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

My avatar dog is Amber,she is now 11 years old and has a lineage a yard long. Her first owner couldn't handle her and her brother so he turned them into the pound.She was adopted,but her brother was returned to the breeder.
The people who adopted her,returned her several months later because she became heartworm positive.She went through 6 more adoptions and returns before we found her.
I love her so much,but she will be moving on soon as her cancer is getting bad She has a few white spots since a puppy,but is as pure Golden as they get.Here's a link to her story;
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-rescue-stories/4926-how-amber-rescued.html


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

natedog91604 said:


> Awesome looking dogs! But the white mask, if it's already present while Dixie's a puppy, isn't that uncommon for purebred dogs? I was told by the same person who doubted Dixie's breed that white mask is a sign of aging that's why she wonders why my 15 wk old puppy already has white marks on her face and paws. It's like seeing wrinkles on a 2 month old baby!


your gonna get greg started again.. im pretty tired of your training instructor.. get your money back and buy a book..


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

greg bell said:


> your gonna get greg started again.. im pretty tired of your training instructor.. get your money back and buy a book..


I agree with Greg, your trainer is a snob it seems. Not us,we love all Goldens of every color,even if they only have 3 legs,we don't care. The love is all the same Golden touch.
Now if I paid several grand for a show dog,well I might be a snob too.
The prettest Golden is the one loving you.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

believe me..I know of some goldens with white on em worth several grand..


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I agree with Greg and Shane regarding this trainer. Its strange that a trainer wouldn't understand the variations that can come with a pure-bred. And stranger still that she would put so much focus on making you feel uncomfortable. 

I say that because I would be uncomfortable if someone was nitpicking my Lucky. Lucky's coloring is perfect for the ring...but his eyes are too close together, his muzzle too narrow and he walks like a swayback mule. I can just imagine some trainer studying him and clicking her tongue.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Lucky's mom said:


> I agree with Greg and Shane regarding this trainer.


Maybe we should all be calling that trainer...... just kidding....


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

RickGibbs said:


> Maybe we should all be calling that trainer...... just kidding....


Calling him WHAT?:  :doh: I can think of some things.........


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

heck..if i was in that class and she was doing it to someone else, I would be really uncomfortable and would probably be looking for my money back..... well, forget the probably part.. 
listen you snobbish arrogant *****, you can take your breed standard stuff and... well, ill quit there..


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

I had a vet try to tell me Brandy wasn't purebred for the SAME reasons! I later discovered that the vet was a dog snob. He couldn't understand why anyone would want to rescue and get "someone else's problems". 

He's no longer my vet.

As for goldens with white markings in competition, I once asked a reputable breeder about that. She commented that I might be surprised about the dogs helped by "Miss Clairol". She added that a golden with four white paws was once a national agility champion. I believe it appropriately had the word 'boots' in its name.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

the hottest golden on the national field trial circuit right now has some white on him..only 4 and just finished his AFC and well on his way to his FC.... takes a lot more dog to do that than to trot around the show ring..


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Maggie has white markings on her chest..and both her parents are purbreeds?


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## natedog91604 (Apr 10, 2006)

I think all of us should start our own breed. if AKC or any other clubs won't recognize ours because of their white patches, then let's start our own breed. I wonder what the name of the breed would be though? Any suggestions? How's Variation Retriever?:bowl:


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## LauraEyes2 (Sep 16, 2005)

I agree, unless you're some kind of show-handling class, there isn't a need for discussion about how purebred your puppy is. It seems like this trainer needs a few lessons in professionalism. 

I wouldn't worry about it what this person has to say....


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

shaneamber said:


> Calling him WHAT?:  :doh: I can think of some things.........


Well, to start with....that trainer ain't no purebred...


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

It seems to me I heard at one time some of the white markings were a throw back from the beginning, i'm not sure if that is right though. Maybe someone else knows more about this then I. I really don't know. It does sound like this trainer is being very snobbish though, I hope she is putting all that energy into helping you train your dog, because that I am assuming is what your there for.

Many of what you see today in the show world can't even do this.....but yet they win in the ring and they may not have some of that white in them, or they may well have and it's covered up. It's illegal, but it is being done. I read an article on behind the scenes of show dogs...couldn't believe what of what is going on, they even sell things that are illegal to use on the dogs in the back rooms....just don't let the judge see ya use it and your ok. But yet they allow it too be sold in there back room where all the show dogs are being prepped and groomed for showing.

Just give me a dog that can fetch.... his first day after all winter getting back into some water.


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## matrixology (Sep 17, 2017)

Are they golden retriever or mix. Please help seniors.


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## Peri29 (Aug 5, 2017)

There are PURE golden retrievers with white markings. Pls do not forget that GRs itself is not a single breed but composed of different breeds. There are also GRs who did very good in dog shows with white markings. Simply change the trainer.
The pictures you sent. Is the second picture of the mum or the pups? The GRs can have long or slightly shorter haired ones. I homed dozens and dozens. My own golden has slightly shorter hair. Not like a lab, much longer than a lab but shorter than most of them. And yess, she is a purebred golden.
If it's the mum on the 2nd picture, she looks like a Goldador ( lab & golden mix) which I love. Or she must have been shaved previously. 
Please also note that some of the GRs hair grow long only after 1 years old.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Nate, if the white under her eyes, around them, and her muzzle, are what I see in your profile pic, 
those are not white markings. 
It's just lighter shading. I call the eye thing 'sunglasses' and it usually goes to a less striking blend of gold as they age. 
The muzzle is also just light. A white marking on a Golden's face is something like a blaze. Your girl's face is just well shaded and highlighted. Not to worry. And her feet- 
if they are toes, the white will probably disappear by the time she's a couple years old.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

matrixology said:


> Are they golden retriever or mix. Please help seniors.


I think these are LAb Golden mixes. The ear isn't set right for a Golden, or for a well-bred Golden anyway. Mama (assuming that's her in the bottom pic) is probably a Lab Golden mix too. Even Goldens with less than abundant coat don't have that little furnishings.


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