# Phasing out food



## Luci (May 26, 2009)

I'm sure it's been discussed before, but I've searched and searched and can't find it. 

So my problem: Lucy is a pro at doing pretty much everything we learned in our obedience classes... as long as she knows I have food. The food doesn't have to be visible or even hidden in my hand, if she knows I have it on me somewhere that's enough. 

What I'd like to know (even if you can post links to threads that touch on it) is how you phased constant rewarding out of your training. She knows the commands, but is MUCH slower when I don't have a treat handy. I've also tried rewarding her with praise and play, but nothing works quite like a treat :doh:


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

What are your goals?

1) Don't get rid of the food, just make it harder. Work up to heeling right over food, staying while food/toys tossed or dogs moving right beside your dog. Etc.... It tends to work best to raise expectations OR be getting rid of food... not both at the same time.
2) Be sure you are practicing good training. You only reach for the food after the behavior is performed.
3) Work with food setting on a counter/table/etc.
4) Condition secondary reinforcers. Pet. Then treat. Pet. Treat. Clap. Treat. Etc. 
5) Use "Surprise" reinforcers. Put stuff out around the yard on fence posts or in trees, etc, or have "hidden smell" ones on you (unnopened baby food jar). Use these. 
6) Maintain criteria. If you can't get the same performance with food on a nearby surface...get back to gradually raising the requirements until this looks like when food is on you. And then start moving away from the surface. Etc... 
7) Learn about creating chains (esp if you have competition goals).
8) Video tape yourself. I hear a lot about dogs that "know" when the owner doesn't have food. And I've yet to find one that is using scent as the cue. Often the owners are acting different when food is not available and THAT the dogs pick up on fast!

These are some of the strategies we use.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

What are you doing right now? 

Like in class, how often are you giving her a treat? And when do you give treats? Where do you normally keep the treats while training in class?


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

When my dog reached a certain level of proficiency I introduced a correction. This could be as simple as a butt tag to get attention back on you or a collar pop followed by immediate praise and petting when the dog gets it right. Plus, making the criteria simple at first. Honestly, huge improvement in heeling when I began to expect it from her instead of doling out cookies. (I don't like to train with a lot of food, but will at times. At present I virtually never use food anymore when practicing heeling or most commands but we have a blast doing them and she knows she has to)

I also take advantage of training when my dog wants my attention. Rather than always train when you want to, wait until your dog is riled up and begging for your attention. Then your praise and petting will have more value.

Also find meaningful ways to incorporate games and teach very short short sessions of training. I will heel mine for a few feet then release to let her run to the tree to look for the squirrel. She LOVES that. So, I guess in a nutshell on this one expect less at first when moving over to using other rewards--almost like you are retraining it. Build from there. Make sure, too, that you know how to give meaningful praise and play with your dog. Each one is an individual.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Megora said:


> What are you doing right now?
> 
> Like in class, how often are you giving her a treat? And when do you give treats? Where do you normally keep the treats while training in class?


The reason why I asked is because the answer depends on what you are doing right now. 

But - if you are in the same position I was earlier this year when we started training at a new place and my golden was afraid of everything, and I was well... shy and quieter than normal... :uhoh: Dog treats have their place, and I was using like three handfuls of treats a class. 

That was fine as long as I was doing most of the groundwork (that's everything you do at home every day while preparing for your weekly class) with minimal food stuffing. 

So at class we were rewarding every successful element in an exercise (sits, about turns, fasts, slows, good attention, etc). At home my golden did the whole exercise before he got the treat. 

He still got a ton of praise every time he did something good. But we did not "release" with the treat until after he did a heel up and down and back.

Then at class, I started giving treats for every other sit during a heel exercise. Or maybe only on the last sit. Or maybe only after the exercise is over and we are having a party. I'd keep him guessing when he would get his treats.

As I started weaning down from three handfuls to maybe a small handful of treats (3 to 5 treats) at class, I also changed my homework as well. 

I'm still giving a treat after every successful exercise, but I seperated it from my person. Instead of in my hand or pockets, the treat (usually a piece of bread) is placed on a counter somewhere. My guy knows that when he's done working I'll race him back to that counter so he can get that treat. 

And while there are certain dangers (dog pulling out of the ring to get to the training bag), it is not going to be a problem when we enter shows, because the dog knows how to work even when he knows I do not have any treats in my pockets.

Like Goldensail, I wait to train him until that point in the evening when he is being a little nuisance and using his nose to slam my laptop computer closed or climbing on the couch armrest next to my chair and clawing at me with his toenails that need to be trimmed.... :doh:

So the training becomes part of the reward because I'm "playing" with him. The other thing too is I usually follow up the training with dumbbell throwing practice or I pull out one of the stuffed animal toys (I keep them up high because he's too destructo) for him to retrieve. 

But the gist of what I'm saying is that BEFORE you wean off treats at class, you have to wean off and evolve what you are doing at home where there are low to no distractions.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I find most people who try to use play as a reward have trouble putting enough of themselves into. A dog who is used to getting food as a reward is usually going to take the owner getting REALLY into the play and praise in order for it to be a comparable reward in the dog's eyes. When I play with my dogs, I play _like_ a dog. I usually end up on the floor. I'll push the dog, grab hunks of skin, roll him around on the floor, etc.

Of course the real secret is finding the perfect level for each dog. While for Flip, rougher is better, for the Lhasa Apso I've found just a poke on the side or a small shove that doesn't cause any actual movement works best. Even Conner, my soft mush pot of a dog gets really into it when I start pushing him away from me and grabbing his butt.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> When I play with my dogs, I play _like_ a dog. I usually end up on the floor. I'll push the dog, grab hunks of skin, roll him around on the floor, etc.


I do that too... heh. Ever since he was a puppy, that was one of the surprise things I'd do to him to keep him in "playmode". We would do three sits and then I'd get down to his level and play with him.

Only problem I have (in training and even in the ring) is that sometimes when Jacks is really "on" and happy, he goes back to that playfighting thing. The dawg has no respect for my person. 

We had a whole point taken off on our figure eight at the last show. That would be because the judge deducted a half point each time Jacks grabbed my pant leg. He'd just grab it while he was prancing along in perfect heel. Ugh.


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

You might try backchaining, if you haven't already. For e.g., (a novice routine), give a jackpot after the recall. Then do the heel free and the recall, and jackpot after, then the stand for exam, heel free and recall, then jackpot...the goal is to do the whole routine, with the reward (a biggie) at the end. Your goal is for the dog to become more animated as you get nearer the end and he knows the treat is coming. In a trial, I have a friend with the jackpot near the ring gate so I can jackpot him when he exits. Do try to get the treats off of you and into a more remote location. Wean him off being given a reward for any behaviour but the very best. Then surprise him at other times by giving frequent rewards. His attention and work should improve if you become less predictable about when you are giving food rewards. Good luck...I struggle with this one too, as Casey is totally food motivated and has radar for when it is on my body.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom said:


> Your goal is for the dog to become more animated as you get nearer the end and he knows the treat is coming.


The problem with this is then you often get a dog who is sluggish and only half trying at first, but gets more and more up as you go along. I can't tell you how many dogs (mine included) struggle to get through the first exercise in utility. It doesn't matter what exercise is first, they will always have problems completing the first exercise well, because they know their reward doesn't come until they've been working quite awhile. By the time their run is over they are then bouncing off the walls. Another problem with backchaining is that in AKC the Open B and Utility B classes are in a different order every time.

My personal experience with jackpotting is if that's the method one is going to use, it is better to do a random jackpot. So you might go to a match, do one exercise, then jackpot and leave. Go back later in the match, do another exercise and jackpot. Then go in and do three exercises and jackpot.

Conner was trained using the jackpot method. Flip has never had a "jackpot" reward in his life, nothing more than a single piece of kibble or Charlee Bear at a time. I can see the pros and cons I've gotten from training Conner that way. It's still to early to know how the lack of one will affect Flip.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

"Jackpots" and backchaining are not the same thing. I do a ton of backchaining and no intentional jackpotting (nice word-making-up...).

In a training scenario, if backchaining is used, you stop the chain if the performance is not meeting criteria and ONLY continue/cue the next piece if your dog is performing correctly. Continueing with a poor performance will (theoretically) reinforce those responses too.

If the OP was wanting to fade out treats for pet training/basic manners... back chaining probably won't be all that helpful for most scenarios. Competition training presents some different challenges with fading out food.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Oh and I forgot to mention in my post, I've never trained using backchaining for obedience. So with Conner, jackpots but no backchaining, and with Flip neither one. I honestly can't remember if I did backchaining with Annabel. I also forgot to mention that I have recently stopped using jackpots with Conner. Too early to tell the results of stopping his jackpotting, and if I start to see negative results from stopping it I can always go back to them.


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