# Flyer in Junior



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Whose choice is it to use flyers in junior tests, the club or the judge? I've heard some people say they always see a flyer in junior, others say they never see them. It seems to be a regional thing. A friend of mine said she ran junior 6 or 7 times in this area and only had one flyer. Just curious who makes that call. So far we've been in two tests, no flyer yet.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Good question. Every test I have been to has had them. I thought at least one was required, but in reviewing the rules that is only for the Senior and Master level (does anyone know if this changed? I though Junior required one too). It could also depend on the where the test is located.



> In Senior and Master level tests, at least one live flyer must be used unless the use of live ammunition is prohibited by law or policy of the land managing organization at the testing location. How live flyers are used in testing situations is up to the discretion of the judges.


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## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

It's at the discretion of the judge. It's only mandatory in Senior and Masters.
Last summer I did 2 jH tests with my guy in Michigan and the first land retrieve at both tests had flyers. In Michigan, Illinois and Wisconsin flyers for normally used in Junior.
The guys doing it the first day were not allowed to do it the second day. They used over 180 bullets to kill birds for 45 dogs. Second day it only took 60. 

And the bird coming back to you can be in pretty bad shape. The bird brought back to me the second day had it's guts shot out.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Here in the Seattle area we seem to be flier crazy. All of my Junior tests had fliers and two of them had fliers on both water and land. We made sure that Winter would pick up a cripple before we started running JH. She has had to chase a few down in order to bring them back.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

The clubs are to provide the judges 2 live birds per entry for use in the test. It is up to the judges to decide how the birds are to be used. If you're never seeing flyers in Junior it's time to start asking some very pointed questions of the test chair and test committee. You ****** well better be able to see some crates of live birds being delivered to the judges in your test. If you don't, contact the American Kennel Club. The Judges will have some serious explaining to do. The Regulations and Guidelines are very specific when it come to birds. There shouldn't be any question.

Here up north, we almost always have two flyers in Junior (and Senior and Master). The only time we don't see a flyer in junior is when the design of the test would create a safety issue shooting a flyer. It isn't hard to get competent gunners. The club should be providing the shotshells, so those should be correct as well. If the gunners have the correct choke in and the club has provided some #6 steel, the birds won't be inside out when the dog gets there. I've been shooting flyers since AKC Retriever Hunting Test #2, in 1984. It ain't rocket science. 

Our club went through a lot of birds last year. We didn't have any SBR's and only one fly away.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

They're flier crazy here, too. We *always* have at least one in the JH tests, and frequently two (one land, one water).


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

**Question for those of you who run Juniors*, which I do not:

Since a Junior/Started stake consists only of single marks, it naturally occurs to me that what is being tested in them is basic marking. Why would you even _want_ flyers in such an event, when flyers are by their nature inconsistent falls? :doh:

EvanG


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I don't know....my trainer just told me they are changing it to include all Junior hunt tests now.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Junior dogs are still marked in all four categories of evaluation: Marking, Perseverence, Style, and Trainability. Flyers are valuable in Junior, and as a judge I like to have the ability to use them when I judge AKC--we no longer have the ability to shoot flyers in CKC events with the exception of upland tests (where a free flush is possible) due to our Criminal Code, so it is an aspect we are not able to evaluate as thoroughly in consequence. 

In testing for the skills required by a hunting dog, we do want to see if a dog will use its nose and eyes to locate and track its bird, and whether it has the courage and willingness to pick up a freshly shot bird or cripple. Those traits are not revealed with a cold-bird-only test. The dogs who truly love bird work, LOVE to get a flyer.

In the tests I have run, we usually had a live flyer on at least one series in tests in Michigan and NY, and in New England, at all levels. We do not get them in PA and OH as regularly because of the game laws. I think I have only judged one AKC test where we did not use a flyer, and it was because of the close proximity of another stake.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

EvanG said:


> **Question for those of you who run Juniors*, which I do not:
> 
> Since a Junior/Started stake consists only of single marks, it naturally occurs to me that what is being tested in them is basic marking. Why would you even _want_ flyers in such an event, when flyers are by their nature inconsistent falls? :doh:
> 
> EvanG


Good question. I felt bad for the dogs this past weekend running the tail end of the test on the flyer station because the birds were landing all over the place. Some of them really struggled because they could smell that a bird had been there, but there particular bird was several yards over.

I also wonder why they feel like they should scent the fall area with bird before starting a test. That isn't exactly going with natural hunting situations, right?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Just my humble and often wrong opinion, I would think flyers are a very valuable judging tool if you really want to judge a dog's hunting instinct.
As Shelly said, "....In testing for the skills required by a hunting dog, we do want to see if a dog will use its nose and eyes to locate and track its bird, and whether it has the courage and willingness to pick up a freshly shot bird or cripple. Those traits are not revealed with a cold-bird-only test. The dogs who truly love bird work, LOVE to get a flyer...."
It really irks me to hear people gripe if their flyer was a cripple because their dog "won't pick up a cripple". Well then.....the dog isn't really a valuable hunting dog, is it? 
I tip the gunners for cripples. I beg for cripples. 
A well bred hunting retriever ought to be able to track down and bring back a crippled bird with little or no training if they have decent prey drive and instinct. Aren't we testing for natural ability?


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Since I'm completely knew to this world I have a question.

Is it more common for a dog to be fearful of the cripple or for a dog to get overly excited and take of with the cripple?

I hope I make sense. I just ask because my puppy has an incredible prey drive and wants to kill everything she sees. I am more worried about her going beserk in this situation. 
Dead birds she has no problem giving up, though.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I agree. But some clubs like mine find birds in short supply. We don't have farms here that raise birds (we actually have very little farming in Alaska of any kind). We do some live trapping of pigeons at the airport, but there are so few pigeons. Then members of the club have to find a place to keep them alive before the event. We're actually building a coop now so we'll have enough birds for a WCX event in August. If we do find someone that has pheasants, they only raise a few, not enough for an event. So birds for us oddly enough are in short supply. We've heard of some wild pheasants down in Homer area, but I'm just not willing to drive 6 hours down to find out if I can capture one for release later at home. If we fly birds up from that States that are farm raised, then we run into huge expenses for shipping birds. Those of us that have dead birds keep them for training and use them sparingly so they will last a long time. 
so WC events don't use live birds but are required for WCX.

So how do you all get live birds and where do they come from? What kind of birds do you use at your events? Do you ever ship birds in and what do they cost if you buy live birds?


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

While I agree that the ability to pick up a cripple or live flyer is important I never wish for a cripple. I just feel really bad for the bird  Of course two weeks ago we had a cripple and I didn't realize it was still alive when I took it from Scout and it gave me a little startle! 

This past weekend the test dog (15 years old btw!!) picked up a flyer that was never hit.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Sorry Evan, I'm going to disagree with you on this one. I know you frequently hear that "Junior is a marking test". That type of statement isn't correct. The Junior level is still a Hunting Test, and marking is only ONE of the aspects being observed. We're evaluating the dog as a usable hunting companion. 

Whether or not a dog can retain some degree of composure when the birds are flying is a big deal for a hunting dog. Will the dog pursue, contain, capture and return a freshly shot bird or cripple? Those are traits every hunting dog must possess. You can't find out throwing a cold dead bird. 
Within this breed there are dogs that will pick of cold birds all day, but MANY dogs that will NOT pick up a freshly shot bird and turn tail and run away from a cripple. That type of weakness in desire and display of incorrect temperament is NOT what we want in a retrieving breed. And any of those shortcomings won't be exposed without a flyer. Those qualities are important for a hunting dog even at the Junior Level. To not test for them does a disservice to the dogs, the handlers and the program.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Alaska7133 said:


> So how do you all get live birds and where do they come from? What kind of birds do you use at your events? Do you ever ship birds in and what do they cost if you buy live birds?


Birds are purchased from game farms. They are an agricultural product just like chickens, turkeys or hogs. The price of birds varies by region. We're paying about $14.50 for ducks and $19.50 for pheasnts (delivered to the test grounds). Birds are expensive and represent the major expense in putting on a test.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I'm approaching hunt tests in completely the wrong manner, and I know it. Rather than training him completely so he is underwhelmed with a test, I've trained a bare minimum and am hoping for the best. So he's never had a flyer, and I guess I'll just find out what he'll do with one if he gets one at a test. I can't imagine him running away from a cripple, but it shouldn't totally surprise me if he were to try to destroy one if he isn't taught not to first. I keep looking for someone locally that sells birds but I'm not having much luck. Even the handful of training days I've been out to never had live birds. So I'd like to see what he'd do with one, but I know having one for the first time at a test isn't the smartest way to go about it.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ask your local clubs where they get their birds. Or some pros. You just never know what your dog will do when presented with one. Some dogs are quite surprised and won't pick it up initially--but if they had more experience this might be less of a problem.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Jodie, 
Contact the local Pro's in your area before they migrate north for the summer. Ask them if they can shoot a flyer or two for your dog. Let them know your dog has seen dead birds at tests but not flyers, and you're goal is to get the dog some experience with live birds. Yes, you will have to pay them for their time and the birds. In an hour of their time they should be able to introduce a live shackled bird and shoot a flyer or two.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

My husband growing up only trained on live recently killed birds. He didn't know what a bumper was until we started last winter. So he totally gets how some dogs will not pick up a winged bird. Some will get excited and not know how to react. I agree that you should have a go with a live bird before a test so at least you would know what to expect.

We have no game farms in Alaska. A few people grow pheasants for themselves, but usually not for purchase. I am a member of a couple of clubs and it's always a problem we tackle every year. We train on dead frozen birds, usually pigeons. No telling how old some of them are. I have no idea how my dogs would react to a fresh kill or winged bird.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Alaska7133 said:


> We train on dead frozen birds, usually pigeons. No telling how old some of them are.


Hahahaha!! I was talking to my training partner last night about getting some new training pigeons in the freezer for the puppies. I still have the same ones I used when Vixen was a puppy. She's 8 years old now, and those same birds have made through three more litters since then. They're getting a little thread bare.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> Hahahaha!! I was talking to my training partner last night about getting some new training pigeons in the freezer for the puppies. I still have the same ones I used when Vixen was a puppy. She's 8 years old now, and those same birds have made through three more litters since then. They're getting a little thread bare.


If you want to get rid of those pigeons, let me know. I could use some fresh birds.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

wow - I never kept a dove longer than a week in the freezer!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

EvanG said:


> **Question for those of you who run Juniors*, which I do not:
> 
> Since a Junior/Started stake consists only of single marks, it naturally occurs to me that what is being tested in them is basic marking. Why would you even _want_ flyers in such an event, when flyers are by their nature inconsistent falls? :doh:
> 
> EvanG


I totally agree with you. However it seems to me that it is customary to have a flyer in Juniors my parts.

I also have been to your website and see that you do not recommend running Juniors. I now agree with you. My next dog will probably not be run in Juniors.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> Good question. I felt bad for the dogs this past weekend running the tail end of the test on the flyer station because the birds were landing all over the place. Some of them really struggled because they could smell that a bird had been there, but there particular bird was several yards over.


I can surely relate. As much as judges in HT's like to promote a realistic test for a field of dogs, realism is cosmetic at best. You simply cannot provide a spontaneous set of events that is the same for each of a field of - say 30 dogs. Add a live shot flyer, and the only thing realistic is that you've provided 30 different tests, all with scent spread around the same general area. If you're scoring on the basis of comparative merit, how can you compare how dog 1 performed compared to dog 30? They ran different tests; different falls, different times of day, usually different scent conditions, different lighting, and so on. In a field trial it's just heads-up; one dog scored against another, so the tests are actually more mechanical to make that fairer. But I'm just inquiring about Junior dogs on sigle marks.


GoldenSail said:


> I also wonder why they feel like they should scent the fall area with bird before starting a test. That isn't exactly going with natural hunting situations, right?


You're right on the money! This is only one example of why realism in HT's is over rated, and IMO over emphasized. When you're hunting you shoot your own birds, you shoot over the dog, and they're all live shot flyers that are not shot by other people 50-100 yards away. When you're hunting, you have no idea if there even will be any birds, much less where they'll come from. As a prudent judge, you have to do your best to test the traits of a good gundog, rather than trying to judge a hunt, don't you think? These events simply cannot mirror a hunt.

The scenting of a fall area before beginning a test is an effort to make conditions as much the same as possible for the early dogs as the later dogs. That's a nice idea. With dead birds, you can follow that logic by also assuring a more consistent fall to judge them on. Interesting topic, isn't it?


sterregold said:


> Junior dogs are still marked in all four categories of evaluation: Marking, Perseverence, Style, and Trainability. Flyers are valuable in Junior, and as a judge I like to have the ability to use them when I judge AKC


Is marking not still of primary importance? As important as all those other qualities may be, are you not giving weight to marking? If so, how can you compare marks in a field of dogs that are so different, and yet base it on comparative merit?


sterregold said:


> In testing for the skills required by a hunting dog, we do want to see if a dog will use its nose and eyes to locate and track its bird, and whether it has the courage and willingness to pick up a freshly shot bird or cripple.


You bet! All the more reason to judge a field of dogs with minimal skills on more consistent falls, don't you think?


sterregold said:


> Those traits are not revealed with a cold-bird-only test. The dogs who truly love bird work, LOVE to get a flyer.


Sure they are; just not as much. It's a balancing act for all judges. It just gives me pause when thinking about how little skill and experience a typical Junior dog has that is constructively tested by adding flyers?

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

But Evan, in a HT (not FT) the dogs are not being compared to each other. They are only being judged on a set of skills that a hunting retriever should have. It doesn't matter that the 30 tests aren't *the same*. Each dog should be prepared equally well to handle that set of skills, some will get cripples, others will not, but they should all be prepared to handle them if one comes along.
While I agree that it doesn't begin to resemble real hunting, a dog who will not pick up a live bird, IMHAOWO, is seriously lacking in skills which we are trying to keep in the breed.
I know we have each gotten some really crappy *luck* at hunt tests. I've had a couple of birds that EVERYONE was shocked were not a "no bird". Had a water mark, the memory bird, sink on a SH test, and yes, the judge still expected my dog to retrieve the bird. Had a bird go straight up from a winger, and come down not 2 feet in front of the hidey blind. Most dogs have been taught not to run to the blind. But the judge still expected the dog to work it out. I'm sure lots of people on here have tons more stories about things that have happened to their dog at tests. 
Were those things fair? Maybe not. My dog ran a very different test than the other dogs whose birds didn't sink. But being able to retrieve a bird from underwater is a realistic skill in a hunting retriever. He ran a very different test from the dogs whose memory bird went 20 yards out from the hidey blind. But they still tested necessary skills for a golden RETRIEVER.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

As far as running junior, while it might be a good idea for an EXERIENCED handler to skip junior, I think people new to the sport should for sure run junior. For the handler's benefit much more than for the dog's.
The judges are very nice and helpful in junior. The requirements to succeed aren't really all that hard. It gives you practice and confidence to run the higher level tests.
Again, JMHAOWO.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> But Evan, in a HT (not FT) the dogs are not being compared to each other. They are only being judged on a set of skills that a hunting retriever should have. It doesn't matter that the 30 tests aren't *the same*.


I know what you're saying, and there is no perfect answer. On the other hand, if you were judging a Jr., and your first 12 dogs failed to come up with a bird, you would scrap the test in behalf of fairness to the field, yes? But not if only one failed in the same way. Thus we've compared performance of the 12. It's relative to the circumstances.


hotel4dogs said:


> I know we have each gotten some really crappy *luck* at hunt tests. I've had a couple of birds that EVERYONE was shocked were not a "no bird".


Welcome to one of the biggest clubs in canine field sports!:wavey:


hotel4dogs said:


> As far as running junior, while it might be a good idea for an EXERIENCED handler to skip junior, I think people new to the sport should for sure run junior. For the handler's benefit much more than for the dog's....
> 
> Again, JMHAOWO.


Too bad there aren't more club training days to get that done, instead of tests where no corrections can be made, and where new handlers are so entranced by the prospect of a ribbon that they may allow behaviors leading to distructive habits for the future. But, it is what it is. My principle question has been for sometime "do flyers in Junior stakes really represent greater real benefit than potential libility?"

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> As far as running junior, while it might be a good idea for an EXERIENCED handler to skip junior, I think people new to the sport should for sure run junior. For the handler's benefit much more than for the dog's.
> The judges are very nice and helpful in junior. The requirements to succeed aren't really all that hard. It gives you practice and confidence to run the higher level tests.
> Again, JMHAOWO.


I agree on the handler needing experience but I think Junior can ruin some dogs in terms of what they learn they can get away with at a hunt test. It's iffy. 

Many dogs are OK with running junior but then again there are some who are not. What I have seen here on LI is that those high octane red devils are the ones most likely to be ruined. I am making this statement based on the 8 or 10 in my training group.

And I would like to add that I consulted with Evan on this issue and his advice was excellent.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I'm curious, what would a dog be able to get away with in junior that he wouldn't have the opportunity to do in senior? I realize expectations are lowered to pass a junior dog, but that would go into what a handler allows the dog to do. So if a handler goes in with the same expectations of their dog in junior as they would in senior, is there something different about the actual test set up that allows junior dogs to get away with stuff they wouldn't in higher levels?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> I'm curious, what would a dog be able to get away with in junior that he wouldn't have the opportunity to do in senior? I realize expectations are lowered to pass a junior dog, but that would go into what a handler allows the dog to do. So if a handler goes in with the same expectations of their dog in junior as they would in senior, is there something different about the actual test set up that allows junior dogs to get away with stuff they wouldn't in higher levels?


I'm glad that you asked. 
1. A dog that is entered in Junior may not have enough training to have firmly established the behaviors that are necessary, for example a reliable recall or running down a crippled cockbird. In fact, most of the junior dogs that I see stink on cripples (I work every HT here).
2. A young dog run in Juniors is given the opportunity to become test wise. That creates problems that are very hard to break once well established.
3. Over here, a Junior HT gets two flyers, a pheasant on land and a duck on the water. Guess what happens when a young dog gets wings flapped in its face, pecked by a pheasant or spurred by an aggressive fighting cockbird.
4. JH vs. SH---temptations to misbehave are the same, time and training are different.
5. The type of dog that I prefer, an alpha, a Type A, one that is described as "a lot of dog", is exactly the type that gets harmed by premature testing/trialing. They are in it for themselves.

Go to Evan Graham's website and look at his Connection Stages Flow Chart. I now see his wisdom.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

So that all has to do with the dog being less trained. But if a dog is at a level you feel is trained for those things, is there something about a junior test itself that can cause problems?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

A dog that is not only trained but reliable in its behavior should not have a problem. It is one thing to have a behavior but another thing to be consistent and reliable. At what age does this happen?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

No, it is not the test itself that is the problem--it is moreso the handler entering when the dog has not been thoroughly trained enough that it will not engage in those behaviours (like cheating, or poor bird handling, or poor heeling and line obedience masked by the use of the leash) which will become problematic down the road. Many people enter Junior because they get the itch to run their new dog, rather than wait until they have finished their basics and are well into transition work, or because they go in with an attitude that Junior is as far as they will go.

And as to earlier queries about comparison in the field--hunt tests are judged on a standards-based reference rather than a norms-based reference. Norms-based evaluation seeks to rank those tested relative to one another--we see this in field trials. Standards-based ealuation seeks to ascertain whether those tested can perform to the standard which is set for the skills and level to be evaluated--this is the approach outlined in the hunt test rule book, and judges are instructed to design tests which are appropriate to evaluate dogs at the level at which they are being tested, and are not to be designed to eliminate dogs unless they cannot meet the standard. The rule book also specifically says that marks and falls need not be necessarily precisely the same in order to still have fair testing of all entered dogs. 

In the case of the test where the first 12 dogs could not pick up the mark, there are two possibilities that a judge must consider: one, that there are factors they did not recognize in that mark which make it an unfair test for the level being assessed; or, two, that the dogs entered who had run thus far lack the drive, skills, and training required to be successful at the level being tested. If all of the dogs are failing in a similar fashion, falling prey to the same factor, then it would suggest that there is a problem with the test. If those 12 dogs were all doing different goofy things, running willy-nilly all over the field, then it suggests the problem lies with the dogs entered. This is why it is important that during setup, judges use setup dogs who are actually working at the level being tested to see if the test is fair and do-able. I had a JH I judged where 5 dogs in a row tanked it on the flyer and the handlers started to grumble until I reminded them that my 7 month old Golden puppy had done it as set-up dog. After those dogs everyone else did it. Sometimes it is just a weird blip in the running order. I saw it happen in a MH I ran as well. The judges had run a setup dog on the test on Friday, but come Saturday morning, the test dog and the first five working dogs all tanked it. The judges got panicked, and reset the test, at which point most of the dogs started to do the test. The five dogs who had failed the original test ran the new test at the end of the order. And guess what, all five of them failed it too!!!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Jodie, the judging standards in Junior versus senior are about the same as in Novice A versus Utility B !


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Jodie, the judging standards in Junior versus senior are about the same as in Novice A versus Utility B !


That's probably not the best analogy, as in obedience it doesn't matter what class you are in, the judging _should_ be the same. The skills become progressively harder, but a good judge will score a lag in novice the same as a lag as utility. Whereas from what I understand about hunt tests, the judges are supposed to show more leniency in lower levels.

But if we are to use that comparison, then what I was asking is if a dog is trained to utility level, it probably isn't going to hurt the dog to show in novice (or at least not any more than it would hurt them to show in the advanced classes either). Not that the owner has a choice anyway in obedience. However, I would never show a typical dog in the graduate novice class because I would never want the typical dog to only do a down stay in the ring and not a sit stay. In that case its actually what is being asked of the dog that I think could cause problems, not a lowering of expectations.

So from what people are saying,, it sounds like its not the junior set up itself that causes the problem, but dogs that are at tests before they should be if the handler wants to be able to have high expectations of them.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Inconsistent judging in Novice A versus Utility B is the norm around here, but that's a whole different topic for another whole thread  .

But I do think you are right, the problem is not the test at all, but dogs are entered before they are ready. People let the dog get away with dashing back and dropping the bird in their vicinity, while they grab desperately to get the bird before it hits the ground (hence the expression, the "junior grab") where they should be expecting the dog to return briskly to heel, sit quietly holding the bird until they tell the dog to release it into their hand. Just as an example.
The dog can be held on leash until released, and some people (and some judges!) let the dog get away with pulling like crazy on the leash while waiting to be sent, rather than demanding that the dog sit quietly and wait.
And so on.





Loisiana said:


> That's probably not the best analogy, as in obedience it doesn't matter what class you are in, the judging _should_ be the same. The skills become progressively harder, but a good judge will score a lag in novice the same as a lag as utility. Whereas from what I understand about hunt tests, the judges are supposed to show more leniency in lower levels.
> 
> But if we are to use that comparison, then what I was asking is if a dog is trained to utility level, it probably isn't going to hurt the dog to show in novice (or at least not any more than it would hurt them to show in the advanced classes either). Not that the owner has a choice anyway in obedience. However, I would never show a typical dog in the graduate novice class because I would never want the typical dog to only do a down stay in the ring and not a sit stay. In that case its actually what is being asked of the dog that I think could cause problems, not a lowering of expectations.
> 
> So from what people are saying,, it sounds like its not the junior set up itself that causes the problem, but dogs that are at tests before they should be if the handler wants to be able to have high expectations of them.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Sterregold and Loisiana

You are right. The problem is not in the test. The problem is in the handler. Many dogs that I see (not a random sample) are not prepared for the task.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Absolutely it is dogs that are not prepared! It is just very tempting for handlers, especially since the obedience standards for Junior are lower. One of the fails this past weekend was a 6 month old puppy. The puppy had no difficulty in marking and bringing back the flyer nor the other mark. It got dropped for poor obedience. Puppy played with the bird on the line and wouldn't deliver to hand. Kiss of death! This puppy was also brought out on a pro's truck to boot.

When my friend got her lab puppy a few years ago she waited awhile before entering Junior and almost didn't. Not only had she done Junior before, but because she has MH aspirations she didn't want a lower standard for her pup.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> That's probably not the best analogy, as in obedience it doesn't matter what class you are in, the judging _should_ be the same. The skills become progressively harder, but a good judge will score a lag in novice the same as a lag as utility. Whereas from what I understand about hunt tests, the judges are supposed to show more leniency in lower levels.
> 
> But if we are to use that comparison, then what I was asking is if a dog is trained to utility level, it probably isn't going to hurt the dog to show in novice (or at least not any more than it would hurt them to show in the advanced classes either). Not that the owner has a choice anyway in obedience. However, I would never show a typical dog in the graduate novice class because I would never want the typical dog to only do a down stay in the ring and not a sit stay. In that case its actually what is being asked of the dog that I think could cause problems, not a lowering of expectations.
> 
> So from what people are saying,, it sounds like its not the junior set up itself that causes the problem, but dogs that are at tests before they should be if the handler wants to be able to have high expectations of them.


It is not quite that the Junior judges are to show more leniency, but that the standard itself says the dogs are not to be expected to be as polished. So the standard of performance on certain skills is different depending on the level. The judges are expected to hold the dogs to the standard of the level being judged.

As to problems from running Junior, yes, I would say you have assessed the issue correctly.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> I'm curious, what would a dog be able to get away with in junior that he wouldn't have the opportunity to do in senior? ...is there something different about the actual test set up that allows junior dogs to get away with stuff they wouldn't in higher levels?


Jodie,

I hope I can make this a little clearer. It isn't that a dog will be allowed to get away with something in Junior that a dog would not be allowed to get away with in Senior. It _is_ largely that a dog ready for Senior is usually older, has more training and maturity, and can be more easily controlled if he becomes lost or distracted. 

What can happen to a Junior dog that an owner should be concerned about? They can mouth or chew up a bird. They can become distracted and lost, or even bolt. There is potential for real issues that a minimally trained dog can be helped out of.


gdgli said:


> A dog that is not only trained but reliable in its behavior should not have a problem. It is one thing to have a behavior but another thing to be consistent and reliable. At what age does this happen?


It's not an age point. But it is what you expect as they age and mature, as well as be more thoroughly trained. 

Meanwhile back at the flyer question???

EvanG


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Looking at Craig's list, it looks like the local Tractor Supply has been having a poultry swap the first Saturday of every month. Would that be an option for getting a couple of live birds to use?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Sure. In many rural areas there are often poultry/bird auctions. Check the paper, or ask your vet.

EvanG


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

EvanG said:


> My principle question has been for sometime "do flyers in Junior stakes really represent greater real benefit than potential libility?"
> 
> EvanG


Well, It depends. 

To answer that question you first have to understand the demographics of the handlers that play the game. Most of the handlers who enter Junior have no intention of going further. For them, a Junior Title is the goal and the end of their aspirations in the endevour of field work. Senior and Master are not on their radar. For them it is a benefit to see how their dog does with a flyer. These handlers rely a great deal on the natural ability and desire the dog was born with.

For those who have aspirations for bigger things, it comes down to knowing your dog, where it is in the progression of teaching and training, and whether or not my dog is at a point where it can handle the potential pitfalls that can occur in a test environment. For example if you've been working on a back-dooring the gun problem, you probably don't want to see a flayer until the problem is well under control.

But keep in mind, the handlers from the first group could care less whether or not their dog back-doored the gun, or cheated a little corner of water. If their dog recovered the bird, they are happy with the performance. They are not worried about potential training problems for Senior or Master because they have no intention of going there. 

The test itself is not concerned with the "potential training problems" that could arise for young dogs training for senior and master. Whether to run or not to run a test is a decision the owner of the dog must make. The object of the test is to determine if the dog is a serviceable hunting companion or not, when compared to the established standard for that test level. 

It is not intended to be a training tool.

Of all the dogs that start Junior, 25% will go on to start Senior. Of all the dogs that start Senior, less than 25% will go on to start Master.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

I see what you're saying. It just seems like a lot for a couple judges to presume about the owners, when their job is to assess dog work. Thankfully I don't have that to worry about because I don't run them.

EvanG


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