# Early Neutering & Negative affects..



## Spun Gold (Nov 4, 2008)

As a breeder I don't think a day that goes by that I don't get a phone call from someone who has recently lost a dog to cancer. Recently I ran across this article and thought I would post it here for those of you who have young males that are considering getting them neutered under the age of 24 months. Read this carefully and make an informed decision.

Personally, I have changed my contract to specify neutering be done between the ages of 18 & 24 months...no sooner.

Read it and give me your thoughts, I would be interested in hearing from breeders and pet owners alike....

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I agree, and have for quite some time.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

This is frequently discussed here on the forum and most subscribe to waiting until 18-24 months. I have for several years, now.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Ditto...it has never been the norm here to spay/neuter puppies and my vets have always advised to wait until the dog has fully developed...so it's nothing new to me...I can't believe people ever did find it acceptable to whip out a dogs reproductive organs when they are only a few months old (and in some cases a matter of weeks old)


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## Spun Gold (Nov 4, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> This is frequently discussed here on the forum and most subscribe to waiting until 18-24 months. I have for several years, now.


 
I have told folks for the past two years that they should wait...yet they STILL let the Vets talk them into it...I am considering voiding all warranties on dogs altered before 24 months...maybe THAT will get through to folks.

Also interesting was spay incontinence...which I have had one person come back to me after spaying and experiencing problems wanting a refund based on that post spay incontinence saying it was birth defect...


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I agree-and I have added language to my contract voiding it if the dog is spayed or neutered before my stated recommendations..


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I agree, and have for quite some time.


 
I understood from past postings that you do not neuter?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> I agree-and I have added language to my contract voiding it if the dog is spayed or neutered before my stated recommendations..


 
I have, also, unless considered medically necessary, and I am informed prior to surgery and can get a second opinion.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I alter rescue dogs. I don't have any female dogs (Francine is technically my other half's dog) so that doesn't apply. My foster was/is already spayed when she came here. I don't neuter males without a medical or strong behavioral reason. IE, I wouldn't just neuter a male dog at 18 months or any age just "because" he reached that age. However, my senior dog was neutered at age six years for absolutely no reason other than dog people talking me into it. He was perfectly fine before and still is, though now he likes food a lot


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## Thor0918 (Feb 28, 2008)

I'm supposed to get Leo neutered Dec 3rd. He does have an undestended testicle as most of you know. I was thinking that's why the vet wants it done so early. Any thoughts?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

PS I used to be very pro neuter at an early age... people in the UK and other people I respect showed me enough good information that I then followed up on to change my mind. I am NOT against other people altering. I used to feel quite strongly... first pro neuter, than against it, now I really figure it's truly a personal choice. 

I've never been against spaying bitches; I think health warrants routine spaying in them (I disagree humbly that it does in males). However, I think it's best to wait until maturity, personally.


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

Here is my experience-Zachary(neutered at 3 years and he died of pancreatic cancer at age 11 1/2), Jake(neutered at 11 months and he died of liver cancer at 10), Petey(neutered at 7 years and he died of hemangiosarcoma at 9 1/2), Beau(neutered at 6 years and is now almost 11 :crossfing), Emmy(spayed at 3 years and she is almost 7 :crossfing Also, no incontinence for Emmy. I have always been opposed to those who spay or neuter at 4 months or even 6 months. I think this article is VERY interesting and pray that I didn't neuter Jake too soon. Sigh, guess I can't worry about that now.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

We can only move forward with what we know now. This is an issue with so much conflicting information. As mentioned, I've switched views several times based on different studies or personal accounts I have read. Millions of dogs neutered young have lived to long old ages (our family dog was spayed at six months and lived to be 17 years old, for example), but others are not so lucky. And there is no way to turn back that clock.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I alter rescue dogs. I don't have any female dogs (Francine is technically my other half's dog) so that doesn't apply. My foster was/is already spayed when she came here. I don't neuter males without a medical or strong behavioral reason. IE, I wouldn't just neuter a male dog at 18 months or any age just "because" he reached that age. However, my senior dog was neutered at age six years for absolutely no reason other than dog people talking me into it. He was perfectly fine before and still is, though now he likes food a lot


Didn't a dog that you rescued sire your last litter?


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

I don't believe in neutering males and never have!.I do believe in spaying females if you don't have a safe place to keep them away from males. Priska was done late,at around 5yrs old!.
I come from France,where spaying and neutering is not,yet,a common practice unless the dog shows some aggressive tendencies or have cancer!.
I believe in late spaying & neutering,after 2 or even 3,for giant breeds!.I've seen many dogs that were messed up physically by early spaying & neutering.


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## Bob-N-Tash (Feb 24, 2008)

Thor0918 said:


> I'm supposed to get Leo neutered Dec 3rd. He does have an undestended testicle as most of you know. I was thinking that's why the vet wants it done so early. Any thoughts?


I would be interested in any thoughts on this as well. 

I am facing the same issue...an undecended testicle... so I believe it is in Bob's best interest to have him neutered at some point. Currently Bob is almost 14 months old... but from the beginning I have felt that we should wait until he is at least 18 months, preferably 2 years. 

Natasha was spayed a few weeks ago. We bred her once and had no intention of breeding a second litter. And a breeder convinced me that leaving her with an 'open womb' was an invitation to other serious health issues.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I would not say that most here subscribe to waiting until an older age. I have read many different studies that can support either side. Personally, I will always spay and neuter at a young age. Partly because I am involved in rescue and partly because I almost lost an unspayed female to pyrometra. Those of us that are actively involved in rescue generally believe in early spay/neuter.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

golden&hovawart said:


> I don't believe in neutering males and never have!.I do believe in spaying females if you don't have a safe place to keep them away from males. Priska was done late,at around 5yrs old!.
> I come from France,where spaying and neutering is not,yet,a common practice unless the dog shows some aggressive tendencies or have cancer!.
> I believe in late spaying & neutering,after 2 or even 3,for giant breeds!.I've seen many dogs that were messed up physically by early spaying & neutering.


A few questions... Why do you believe in spaying females but not altering males?
Why would you wait to neuter a male until he already has cancer, when most studies show that that altering can in fact _prevent _some cancers?
And, being unfamiliar with France, and given the propensity to not alter dogs, are there rescues or shelters and are they full?


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

I believe in the older spay/neuter. My friend who breed's labs for example will not let anyone neuter/spay until AT LEAST 18 months old. The contract is voided if this is broken.

Unless you are really serious about breeding/extremely careful, I don't understand why you would not neuter dogs if you just have a housepet. This isn't to say I don't believe in intact dogs, quite opposite, but like when PG mentioned a rescue hooking up with another bitch. That actually kinda a shame imo. 

IMO, you should really only keep intact pets if you are a serious breeder (this means you show too! Do SOMETHING with your dogs!), you have a special contract with your breeder (like a co own or similar), you believe your dog/bitch can really hold his/her own in performance areas, and of course, if you show in breed.

I believe in holding off until sexually mature, but I do think that unless you are *extremely* careful, having an intact PET is an accident waiting to happen on many levels.

JMHO :wave:


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

goldengirls550 said:


> I believe in holding off until sexually mature, but I do think that unless you are *extremely* careful, having an intact PET is an accident waiting to happen on many levels.
> 
> JMHO :wave:


I actually just mentioned this on another post, but it has come up again on here so I will ask again...why is it viewed as such risky business having a unspayed bitch if you are a responsible pet owner? 

How does your level of care differ if your bitch was spayed or not?? My dog only goes out in a fully secure garden (like she would if she was spayed or not), I know other dogs cannot get into my garden (which would be the case if my dog was spayed or not), she is always under my control and supervision (which she would be spayed or not) I TOTALLY understand if you are careless about your dogs care as to why you would need to spay for that reason but if you are responsible in general, surely all possible scenarios are covered already! I think the only difference would be our walks, I would keep her on a lead when she was at her most fertile but apart from that why is it seen as such a big concern? (again I want to stress this is from a _responsible_ owners point of view)


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

I don't want to start a nasty argument but WHY you haven't spayed her??? Are you against spaying/neutering. I am not saying that you are not responsible, but suggesting not to spay is not a great idea because as you can probably tell, a great number of people ARE NOT responsible who have intact pets. The number of unwanted litters and shelter dogs are just astounding. And also, it just takes one little mistake for an unwanted litter to happen.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

goldengirls550 said:


> I don't want to start a nasty argument but WHY you haven't spayed her??? Are you against spaying/neutering. I am not saying that you are not responsible, but suggesting not to spay is not a great idea because as you can probably tell, a great number of people ARE NOT responsible who have intact pets. The number of unwanted litters and shelter dogs are just astounding. And also, it just takes one little mistake for an unwanted litter to happen.


If you are referring to me, my bitch is spayed...she was spayed at 15 months old. I do however wish I had waited another 2 or even 3 heat cycles. So as you can see I am not against spaying/neutering, I am merely saying that people often sound so scared that their bitch will automatically get pregnant should they wish to wait a heat cycle or 2...my only point here is that if you take proper care of your bitch then that will not happen!! If you take good care of your dog in general, what will change during your dogs heat cycle?

Of course if you ARE irresponsible then getting your dog spayed/neutered _should_ be high on your list of priorities...but obviously, here is where the problem lies...if you are an irresponsible owner then having your dog altered will not be on your list of priorities at all...it is just the nature of the beast I guess...if you are irresponsible then you probably wouldn't the your dog spayed/neutered anyway.

What I am trying to say is that the message sometimes gets shoved down the wrong people's throats! Am I making any sense to anyone? (it is late)


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I think waiting is better for the dog but not for our society. 

I don't think the difference in health is significant enough to be the main factor in making the decision. 

If a dog is allowed to run free ....and off leash...at all....I think it should be fixed. I'm not sure even the most trained, re-call responsive dog can dependably veer away from a female in heat.

I think that an intact dog is healthier until they get to a point in age where cancer is more of a risk (just like humans). This is all opinion and I'm rambling. 

In my town you must nueter/spay by 6 months before you can license your dog and 'all dogs must be licensed" ...so technically spay/nueter by 6 months is "the law". I'm ok with that though I did break the "law".

BAsically you pay a fine of several hundreds of dollars if your unlicensed, unfixed animal is caught roaming by animal control. And this is how it should be.

Ultimately we can judge people's decision if they are irresponsible, but other then that, its a personal decision. 

Finally...I think dog breeders have the right to void health agreements if they believe the owner is putting the dog more at risk.

Rambling...just relaxing after a tough day at work.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Emma&Tilly said:


> Am I making any sense to anyone? (it is late)


Gosh it is late there isn't it....about 12:30am or so? If I remember correctly, you guys are about 6 hours ahead...


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Emma&Tilly said:


> If you are referring to me, my bitch is spayed...she was spayed at 15 months old. I do however wish I had waited another 2 or even 3 heat cycles. So as you can see I am not against spaying/neutering, I am merely saying that people often sound so scared that their bitch will automatically get pregnant should they wish to wait a heat cycle or 2...my only point here is that if you take proper care of your bitch then that will not happen!! If you take good care of your dog in general, what will change during your dogs heat cycle?
> 
> Of course if you ARE irresponsible then getting your dog spayed/neutered _should_ be high on your list of priorities...but obviously, here is where the problem lies...if you are an irresponsible owner then having your dog altered will not be on your list of priorities at all...it is just the nature of the beast I guess...if you are irresponsible then you probably wouldn't the your dog spayed/neutered anyway.
> 
> What I am trying to say is that the message sometimes gets shoved down the wrong people's throats! Am I making any sense to anyone? (it is late)


Sorry Emma&Tilly if I appeared rude. I was asking you if your bitch was spayed. I'm not directing all of the comments towards you just to the general public. I think you have good intentions in mind, I just wanted my opinion to be heard :wave:.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> I think waiting is better for the dog but not for our society.
> 
> I don't think the difference in health is significant enough to be the main factor in making the decision.
> 
> ...


You made several great points, Lucky's Mom. Unfortunatley, today there are waaay too many who think they can handle intact dogs really can't (I'm pointing at the bad breeders and such). And yes, boy dogs will be boys. Even my teacher's intact lab, who is trained through utility and excellent agility can not resist a bitch in heat. During an agility trial, some thoughtless people were parading their females who were in season outside an agility ring. The poor guy just couldn't help himself and NQ'd. :


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Oh and Lucky's Mom, you need to come and join the Okie social group. We need more fellow Okies!!


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## geoff_rey (Aug 5, 2008)

The breeder we are most likely going with if she does have a dog for us (most if not all going to show homes) contract requires to spay before 6 months unless otherwise given permission.

Sounds kind of early... especially after reading this article but it is protecting the dog from having an accidental litter. Of course we will watch our dog 24/7.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

I would request permission to hold off if she is willing.


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## desilu (Nov 2, 2006)

An intact male Rhodesian Ridgeback lives next door. His owner has no plans to neuter. So I spayed. I don't want any chance of accidental puppies.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

^^^ That was a smart idea.


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## Celeigh (Nov 29, 2007)

I will say that I had every intention of waiting as long as possible, up to 2 years, but felt that it was necessary given Fergus' progressively more prevalent marking behavior at 13 months. I don't regret it and think when it comes to behavioral issues, you have to make the decision based on the dog in question rather than a blanket assessment of all dogs. With another dog, I would still wait as long as possible and hopefully would make it closer to the end of the second year.

FYI, Fergus's marking behavior (which included furniture, the exterior walls, my other dog, and human beings in addition to every bush/tree/thing extending out of the ground for several miles around) has been drastically reduced as has his obsession with certain dogs at the park, aggression from other dogs, and mounting. It was the right decision for us.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Emma&Tilly said:


> I actually just mentioned this on another post, but it has come up again on here so I will ask again...why is it viewed as such risky business having a unspayed bitch if you are a responsible pet owner?
> 
> How does your level of care differ if your bitch was spayed or not?? My dog only goes out in a fully secure garden (like she would if she was spayed or not), I know other dogs cannot get into my garden (which would be the case if my dog was spayed or not), she is always under my control and supervision (which she would be spayed or not) I TOTALLY understand if you are careless about your dogs care as to why you would need to spay for that reason but if you are responsible in general, surely all possible scenarios are covered already! I think the only difference would be our walks, I would keep her on a lead when she was at her most fertile but apart from that why is it seen as such a big concern? (again I want to stress this is from a _responsible_ owners point of view)


No yard is secure from entire males getting to a female in heat. Theres a dog in this neighbour hood who climbs a 10ft fence easy. They will do anything to get to a female in heat they will dig under the fence,climb the fence even break through the fence. Also females when in heat go searching too, Where we used to live some guy owned a female when she came in heat she would break the fence apart and get out searching for a male dog. He had to tie her up when in heat which didn't work cause the males then jumped his fences, He had enough and got her spayed. I don't think keeping a female locked up inside without means of geting outside to the toilet a good idea. All i'm saying is when a male smells a female in heat they can be very hard to keep away and they will try everything to get to your female.

This is what it says on the negative side (If done before the age of 1 blah blah then done further it says triples the risk of obesity,a common heath problem in dogs with manyassociated heath problems)
That is wrong if neutering male dogs under the age of 1 triples the risk of obesity then why i am i finding it hard to keep weight of Einstein he was neutered at 2 years old. The way i see it is people are going to read these artiles then not bother getting there dogs spayed or neutered which then will cause more dogs becoming pregant which equals more dogs in shelters. I'm for early spaying/neutering this way theres no adding to over population of dogs. I don't care if people say oh i can keep my female away from male dogs truethy thats harder said then done. I've heard alot of people say that then 2 months down the track you see a post saying oh no a male ended up geting to my female and she is now pregant. If they spayed the female before her first heat this would not have happened. Some dogs even chew through a front a door to get to a female in heat. When a female pees when in heat leaves a scent for the male to let them know there in heat. If the female is kept inside doesn't mean its safe just means the male dog may take longer to get into her. I've heard of a male breaking through a doggy door to get to a female. My dad has even seen a male breed with a female through a wire kennel run difficult but it could happen.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I had Daisy spayed at 6 months, that was just the way it was back then. She's 8 years old now. 

But I can say, and I know some will counter, that NO dogs (male or female) get to my dog without me right there in the mix. An unwanted pregnancy would never have been an issue.

And I'm proud of that


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

yes but you can't be right there in the mix if your at work. Its not like a boss wil give you 3 weeks off cause your dogs in heat. Thats what i'm saying its not possible too be there 24/7 watching your dog when in heat if you work unless your boss allows you to bring your dog into work.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Its no secret that I am all for early spay and nueter. To me accidental breedings with my pets are just unacceptable and thats my means of ensuring they do not happen. Although, there are risks of early spay and nueter I feel the risks of having unaltered puppies is greater. That is just not a risk I am willing to take.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> yes but you can't be right there in the mix if your at work. Its not like a boss wil give you 3 weeks off cause your dogs in heat. Thats what i'm saying its not possible too be there 24/7 watching your dog when in heat if you work unless your boss allows you to bring your dog into work.


When I'm at work, my dog is inside our home. No doggie doors.


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## DUSTYRD2 (Feb 28, 2007)

Bob-N-Tash said:


> I would be interested in any thoughts on this as well.
> 
> I am facing the same issue...an undecended testicle... so I believe it is in Bob's best interest to have him neutered at some point. Currently Bob is almost 14 months old... but from the beginning I have felt that we should wait until he is at least 18 months, preferably 2 years.
> 
> Natasha was spayed a few weeks ago. We bred her once and had no intention of breeding a second litter. And a breeder convinced me that leaving her with an 'open womb' was an invitation to other serious health issues.


Nugget too had an undescended testicle (cryptorchism). We checked with several vets including a reproductive specialist and they all advised it was safe to wait until he was anywhere from18 to 24 months to do the neuter, provided nothing untoward showed up in the interim. So whenever he was in the vet for anything else, shots, ear infections, etc. it was always checked. He was actually neutered at 26 months. The retained testicle was in his abdomen and he bounced back from surgery with no problems. In fact we were told to keep him quiet, no jumping, stairs etc. for 2 weeks but the monkey jumped off the bed the day after surgery and there was no keeping him down after that.
So, I would advise waiting as long as possible, but not too long, (like 36 months) as the retained testicle can become cancerous over time.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I believe that in many European countries, altering pet dogs is definitely NOT the norm like it is here in the US. Unfortunately, many, many pet owners in the US aren't as responsible as they should be and as a result, two notable things have happened:

1. our over population problem in astronomical
2. dogs have no legal off leash privilages other than at very select (and usually over-crowded) "dog parks".

I think it's a very different culture from what you're used to in England.

I envy the way your culture treats its animals!

-Stephanie



Emma&Tilly said:


> If you are referring to me, my bitch is spayed...she was spayed at 15 months old. I do however wish I had waited another 2 or even 3 heat cycles. So as you can see I am not against spaying/neutering, I am merely saying that people often sound so scared that their bitch will automatically get pregnant should they wish to wait a heat cycle or 2...my only point here is that if you take proper care of your bitch then that will not happen!! If you take good care of your dog in general, what will change during your dogs heat cycle?
> 
> Of course if you ARE irresponsible then getting your dog spayed/neutered _should_ be high on your list of priorities...but obviously, here is where the problem lies...if you are an irresponsible owner then having your dog altered will not be on your list of priorities at all...it is just the nature of the beast I guess...if you are irresponsible then you probably wouldn't the your dog spayed/neutered anyway.
> 
> What I am trying to say is that the message sometimes gets shoved down the wrong people's throats! Am I making any sense to anyone? (it is late)


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> No yard is secure from entire males getting to a female in heat. Theres a dog in this neighbour hood who climbs a 10ft fence easy. They will do anything to get to a female in heat they will dig under the fence,climb the fence even break through the fence. .


I guess this is where we come back to cultural differences again. As Sephanie pointed out things differ from country to country...although its not all roses here...we do have more than our fair share of homeless dogs but from what I gather, after reading many posts on here, there is much less of a chance of seeing a roaming dog in general. Dogs that are out of the confines of an enclosed garden tend to be under the control of its owner and an unattended dog would be very rare indeed. So that, in itself, slims down the chances considerably of having male dogs trying to scale your garden fence if you have a bitch in heat....if the dogs in the area aren't free to roam anyway (as they are also owned by responsible people) then there really isn't the threat of having hoards of male dogs trying to throw themselves over 10ft fences. Of course if roaming dogs were a major concern then I would have to up the level of 'security' round an in season bitch but I still don't think it is THAT tricky to ensure she does not get pregnant. I am confused about the 'what happens when you are at work' comment....that would be a bitches most secure time! How many intact dogs can break into a house?? I find it hard to envisage how a dog could 'chew' his way through a front door. I know many people that own unspayed bitches and it just is not a problem, their bitches live in a safe and secure environment like they would if they were spayed or not.

*Ash*...shouldn't the focus really be on ensuring the puppies are placed with people that aren't irresponsible enough to want to breed or keep a bitch that lives in an unsecure environment? I am absolutely sure that you choose your pet homes very, very carefully...shouldn't that be enough to ensure that there will not be any breedings? If I were a breeder and had the slightest doubt that the owner was not competent enough to properly look after the bitch during a heat cycle then I would be absolutely certain that they would not get a puppy. Of course making sure they have the op early does make it absolutely concrete but I would be sad and feel that I had failed somewhat if that trust wasn't there in the first place. If an annoying owner like me wanted a puppy from you and I had a preference to wait until the dog had matured before the spay/neuter would you make an exception? (and I consider myself to be a pretty good home for a puppy by anybodies standards!) If I were a breeder I would be absolutely delighted if my puppy owners had the nous about them to research the subject and wish to wait until the dog had fully developed before taking away its reproductive organs...the whole relationship of trust would be secured by me getting to know them and judging their ability to look after the dog properly. Yes, accidents can always happen, but lets face it most 'accidents' relate directly to the standard of care given in the first place...if you are a careless owner then these little 'accidents' will be much more probable.

I guess I just don't understand the mentality of 'I trust you to own one of my dogs, but I don't trust you enough to look after it properly' (and not letting a immature bitch get pregnant most certainly comes under the banner of 'proper' care)


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I believe that in many European countries, altering pet dogs is definitely NOT the norm like it is here in the US. Unfortunately, many, many pet owners in the US aren't as responsible as they should be and as a result, two notable things have happened:
> 
> 1. our over population problem in astronomical
> 2. dogs have no legal off leash privilages other than at very select (and usually over-crowded) "dog parks".
> ...


In my dog park, you can't even have your intact dog/bitch run free off a leash. This is smart imo. I don't think people should stand there worrying if something is going to happen to the intact dogs when they come there to have fun.


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## Spun Gold (Nov 4, 2008)

Bob-N-Tash said:


> I would be interested in any thoughts on this as well.
> 
> I am facing the same issue...an undecended testicle... so I believe it is in Bob's best interest to have him neutered at some point. Currently Bob is almost 14 months old... but from the beginning I have felt that we should wait until he is at least 18 months, preferably 2 years.
> 
> Natasha was spayed a few weeks ago. We bred her once and had no intention of breeding a second litter. And a breeder convinced me that leaving her with an 'open womb' was an invitation to other serious health issues.


An undescended testical can turn cancerous eventually...however, they still have to 'go in' and retrieve it. Why can't they just remove the undescended one and leave the other in the scrotum? Females going through estrus 2 x a year are more suseptible to pyometra...plus there is the mess and risk of pregnancy if not watched closely. I am not opposed to folks spaying females after the first season or as late as possible. I am against neutering though. I think it absolutely ruins the appearance of the dog. No question about it.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

goldengirls550 said:


> In my dog park, you can't even have your intact dog/bitch run free off a leash. This is smart imo. I don't think people should stand there worrying if something is going to happen to the intact dogs when they come there to have fun.


That is the beauty of owning a dog in the UK...all dogs aren't forced to exercise in one small patch set aside as a 'dog park'

I do wonder what there is to 'worry' about...do you mean on a social side or worrying if some lunatic brings an in season bitch to a dog park? From personal experience I have found there to be much more social problems with my neutered dog than there ever was when he was intact...taking away his testosterone seems to have given him a somewhat nervy disposition around other dogs...something that only occured after castration...I really do wish he has not been neutered but it was for medical reasons.


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## Spun Gold (Nov 4, 2008)

Celeigh said:


> I will say that I had every intention of waiting as long as possible, up to 2 years, but felt that it was necessary given Fergus' progressively more prevalent marking behavior at 13 months. I don't regret it and think when it comes to behavioral issues, you have to make the decision based on the dog in question rather than a blanket assessment of all dogs. With another dog, I would still wait as long as possible and hopefully would make it closer to the end of the second year.
> 
> FYI, Fergus's marking behavior (which included furniture, the exterior walls, my other dog, and human beings in addition to every bush/tree/thing extending out of the ground for several miles around) has been drastically reduced as has his obsession with certain dogs at the park, aggression from other dogs, and mounting. It was the right decision for us.


 
The ONLY reason to neuter would be dog to dog agression and or behavior problems related to being intact. Some dogs can handle retaining possesion of their testicles no problem...I did the same thing with my GSP who I did not want to have a mis alliance with one of my GR's. 

Great picture!!! I love it!


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Spun Gold said:


> Why can't they just remove the undescended one and leave the other in the scrotum?


They can. I wish I had had that done with Harry instead of them taking both.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

This is a very interesting debate, and one that most will have an opinion. As a dog owner who's previous male spent his whole life intact, with little or no problems, my present two dogs (1 bitch, 1 dog) live very happily. Obi was castrated at 18 months maily due to OCD and the surgeon suggested not a good idea to use him for breeding. As I hadn't planned to use him in this way, I was advised to wait until 18 months, which I did.

Apart from him, Izzie has not been spayed... yet! I do plan for puppies with her as she has been shown and will hopefully be my 'foundation' bitch. However, if for any reason, such as failing a health clearance, she will be spayed!

There is much said about puppy contracts containing spay/neuter clauses... something I will consider including in mine if and when we have pups. I strongly believe however, that the dog/bitch is much better being fully mature before that takes place.

I thank my lucky stars that here in the UK there is not a big problem with straying dogs. It is, as Emma says, a very rare occurrence which the local authority is responsible for picking up any reported stray. In fact, it is so rare, your first instinct if you ever came across one, is to catch it and return to the owner (by law, all dogs must have a collar with owner details attached).

I have always exercised Izzie when she was in season (she's only had 2 seasons) I just take her to an enclosed field, and keep her on the lead at other times. The % of unneutered dogs is quite low, as many owners now spay/neuter routinely. If I meet an owner whose dog is showing interest I would always tell them she is coming in/out of season, and haven't had a problem... yet! Apart from that, I have a reason to keep my dog intact, what's their's?

As I said before, if for any reason she can't be mated in the near future, then she will be spayed. I have no interest in knowingly producing puppies of an inferior quality, I wish to after all, keep one to show.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Spun Gold said:


> An undescended testical can turn cancerous eventually...however, they still have to 'go in' and retrieve it. Why can't they just remove the undescended one and leave the other in the scrotum? Females going through estrus 2 x a year are more suseptible to pyometra...plus there is the mess and risk of pregnancy if not watched closely. I am not opposed to folks spaying females after the first season or as late as possible. I am against neutering though. I think it absolutely ruins the appearance of the dog. No question about it.


The appearance of a dog will not change if he is not neutered until fully physically mature. I neutered a champion male at aproximately 8 years of age, and he looked wonderful, as does his son who has been neutered for a little over a year and is now 8. Puppies that I have produced that have been neutered between 18-24 months old look great, and I would defy anyone to know that they are altered by looking at them.

Leaving a testicle still leaves a dog open to problems associated with intact males later in life.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Emma&Tilly said:


> *Ash*...shouldn't the focus really be on ensuring the puppies are placed with people that aren't irresponsible enough to want to breed or keep a bitch that lives in an unsecure environment? I am absolutely sure that you choose your pet homes very, very carefully...shouldn't that be enough to ensure that there will not be any breedings? If I were a breeder and had the slightest doubt that the owner was not competent enough to properly look after the bitch during a heat cycle then I would be absolutely certain that they would not get a puppy. Of course making sure they have the op early does make it absolutely concrete but I would be sad and feel that I had failed somewhat if that trust wasn't there in the first place. If an annoying owner like me wanted a puppy from you and I had a preference to wait until the dog had matured before the spay/neuter would you make an exception? (and I consider myself to be a pretty good home for a puppy by anybodies standards!) If I were a breeder I would be absolutely delighted if my puppy owners had the nous about them to research the subject and wish to wait until the dog had fully developed before taking away its reproductive organs...the whole relationship of trust would be secured by me getting to know them and judging their ability to look after the dog properly. Yes, accidents can always happen, but lets face it most 'accidents' relate directly to the standard of care given in the first place...if you are a careless owner then these little 'accidents' will be much more probable.
> 
> I guess I just don't understand the mentality of 'I trust you to own one of my dogs, but I don't trust you enough to look after it properly' (and not letting a immature bitch get pregnant most certainly comes under the banner of 'proper' care)


Its got nothing to do with me not trusting the owner. The dynamics of breeding and "the way dogs work" go far beyond the bitch comes into season in Febuary and September etc. etc. etc. There are things like varied heat cycles. Generally, bitches will come into season every 6 - 10 months, I repeat generally. As we know there are exeptions to every rule. I have had bitches come in every 4 months and bitches come in every 12 months. Also, things like 

"Silent Heats" ~ Very suttle signs of estrus. Often, bitches do not show any of the typical signs of heat (bleeding, swelling, no behavior changes). 

"Split Heats" ~ Occur when a bitch grows follicles on her ovaries and experiences the signs of being in season (swelling, bleeding) but does not progress into oestrus and does not ovulate. The bitch's follicles will usually regress, and then she will come into a complete heat cycle with ovulation anywhere from two to 12 weeks later. Split heats are most common in a young bitch, especially at her first season. 

Even experienced Breeders can fail to detect a silent heat so this makes it very unlikely and general and yes even good pet home would. Things like going to the dog park or doggy daycare could result in an "accident". Now to me I would rather my pups be altered at 6 - 8 months old then have an 8 month old PUPPY whelping a litter of their own. The stress and probable damage that puts of the joints and bones is more then words can explain. Ecspecially when its not uncommon for bitches to gain up to 30 extra lbs while in whelp. For those that contact me for a puppy after the litter is born and I know what I have as far as numbers. The prespective owners are contacted, if interested, my contract is sent to them - if they don't like my spay and nueter regulation they are welcome to pass and look elsewhere. No one is twisting there arm persay. Again, accidents happen as I have mentioned it above its not that simple. There are ways around it which gives the owners and myself peace of mind. Why wouldn't I do it this way?

To say that one had an accident because they are irresponsible and do not care for bitches properly is untrue. If true, 80% of Breeders (reputable ones) are irresponsible. Whether they admit it or not almost every Breeder I have spoken with (again reputable ones) have had an accident. Whether they admit it openly or not ins another story.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Ash said:


> To say that one had an accident because they are irresponsible and do not care for bitches properly is untrue. If true, 80% of Breeders (reputable ones) are irresponsible. Whether they admit it or not almost every Breeder I have spoken with (again reputable ones) have had an accident. Whether they admit it openly or not ins another story.


Interesting figures!! I'd love to know how true that is! Along the same lines I'd just like to throw in that 100% of pet owners that I have come into contact with have never had an accidental breeding with their unspayed female! On the whole, I was talking about pet owners and not a breeder who has several unspayed bitches and a couple of intact males in one establishment...I can see how accidents would be more probable as they are living under the same roof. 

Anyway...I had never heard of silent or split heats before, so I am learning something here...I wonder how common they are...I might look into that one a bit more for future reference if I own another bitch. Just out of interest, are you saying you would actually turn away perspective puppy owners that seemed very knowledgeable on the subject and were ideal owners in every other respect, but had asked if they could spay after the first season? I am guessing you are saying you would from your earlier post. If I were a breeder I would be longing to find that type of owner!! Also as my vet will not spay a bitch before their first heat so I would be in a bit of a pickle should I be one of your puppy buyers (although I am thinking I wouldn't get past the first hurdle anyway!) :no:

Just say somebody who had signed your puppy contract had later researched and decided to wait, what happens then? Where does each party stand legally? Would you wish to remove the puppy or take some kind of action against the owner? Sorry for all the questions, but its a really interesting area (and highlights why I would not want to be a breeder!!lol!)


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Emma&Tilly said:


> That is the beauty of owning a dog in the UK...all dogs aren't forced to exercise in one small patch set aside as a 'dog park'
> 
> I do wonder what there is to 'worry' about...do you mean on a social side or worrying if some lunatic brings an in season bitch to a dog park? From personal experience I have found there to be much more social problems with my neutered dog than there ever was when he was intact...taking away his testosterone seems to have given him a somewhat nervy disposition around other dogs...something that only occured after castration...I really do wish he has not been neutered but it was for medical reasons.


Not surpirsing to me to hear that you think it's been harder for Harry since being castrated. In your area, with most dogs being intact, him being castrated makes him stand out as "different" to other dogs. I've heard John Rogerson mention that numerous times. Likely he's getting a "your different" vibe from other dogs and he's going on the definsive a bit about it...?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ash said:


> Its got nothing to do with me not trusting the owner. The dynamics of breeding and "the way dogs work" go far beyond the bitch comes into season in Febuary and September etc. etc. etc. There are things like varied heat cycles. Generally, bitches will come into season every 6 - 10 months, I repeat generally. As we know there are exeptions to every rule. I have had bitches come in every 4 months and bitches come in every 12 months. Also, things like
> 
> "Silent Heats" ~ Very suttle signs of estrus. Often, bitches do not show any of the typical signs of heat (bleeding, swelling, no behavior changes).
> 
> ...


 
While I respect Ash, and for the most part agree with everything above, I would question the statistic quoted of 80% of reputable breeders having had an accidental litter. I'd like to know the source. Knock on wood, I have never had an accidental breeding, and personally know very few who have (and I trust that they are being honest with me.)


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

As for the weight issue, Obi put on about 5 kg after neutering. I didn't really notice until he was routinely weighed at the vet and was 45 kg! Needless to say I cut down on his food. I totally agree that there is absolutley no reason for a neutered dog to put on weight because Obi is living proof - he's absolutley perfect weight and fit as a fiddle to boot. 

Excess weight is counter productive, as it lessens their ability to be fit and active, leading to a negative cycle. Most owners don't have a clue that their dog is overweight, and comment that my dogs are slim... I don't have the heart to tell them that's how they are supposed to look!!!!!!

All I can say is we live and learn!


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Emma, I wonder with Harry if it's more to do with his breed than a neutering issue. I meet so many border collies out and about, and I'd say at least 50% of them are skittish. Unfortunately it's in their genes... being 'sensitive' probably makes them better working dogs. If he's had a few negative experiences, it might just be his way of dealing with it. Like people, dogs are very different personalities, but breed does play a part.

I've never had a moment's worry with Obi, he's a complete clown and every single dog irrespective of size or breed is a potential playmate to him - not an ounce of agression - ever! Dogs sometimes 'hump' him, but they're usually castrated as well - do not have a clue why that happens!


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Not surpirsing to me to hear that you think it's been harder for Harry since being castrated. In your area, with most dogs being intact, him being castrated makes him stand out as "different" to other dogs. I've heard John Rogerson mention that numerous times. Likely he's getting a "your different" vibe from other dogs and he's going on the definsive a bit about it...?


 
I don't think Emma was suggesting that most dogs in her area are entire - the fact is that a vast majority of dogs in the UK are in fact spayed/neutered. Fortunately for our dogs they may have more freedom in public places - long may it last!


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

While sometimes it can be difficult to actually enforce contracts (easier when they are in the same province/state). Most people live up to their word and do what they originally agreed to do. To have a reminder that was agreed to on paper generally, they do the right thing. My contract like MANY I have read does state that if difficulties occur between the breeder and buy and the terms are not followed I will seek legal action. Knock on wood I have had no problems. My puppy families fully understand my reasoning and are happy to abide with the terms. Which includes spaying and nuetering by 9 months, taking a set of classes etc. with documentation being forwarded to me. Although, there are pros and cons of spaying and nuetering early this is the way I choose to do things. After all I am entitled to enforce what I wish with MY puppies. 1000's of animals are put down in N. America each week - why would I want to take a chance of having my breeding contribute to that??? Bottom line its every Breeders personal choice. You don't alter until 24 months more power to you but this is how I do things as *I* believe its best for the pups produced from MY breeding. 

As for the accidental breedings amongst breeders I could rattle off a large large list of names (of course I wouldn't as thats not buissness to tell) including my own but I have said that atleast a few times before. Sorry about that what a typo to make. Around 50% (5 one below the 8 LOL) is what I would guess - sorry for the confusion. IMO the only statements you can trust are the ones that admit to having an accidental breeding (which I have heard and seen many many of). Unfortunately, not everyone is honest.


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## Spun Gold (Nov 4, 2008)

Ash said:


> While sometimes it can be difficult to actually enforce contracts (easier when they are in the same province/state). Most people live up to their word and do what they originally agreed to do. To have a reminder that was agreed to on paper generally, they do the right thing. My contract like MANY I have read does state that if difficulties occur between the breeder and buy and the terms are not followed I will seek legal action. Knock on wood I have had no problems. My puppy families fully understand my reasoning and are happy to abide with the terms. Which includes spaying and nuetering by 9 months, taking a set of classes etc. with documentation being forwarded to me. Although, there are pros and cons of spaying and nuetering early this is the way I choose to do things. After all I am entitled to enforce what I wish with MY puppies. 1000's of animals are put down in N. America each week - why would I want to take a chance of having my breeding contribute to that??? Bottom line its every Breeders personal choice. You don't alter until 24 months more power to you but this is how I do things as *I* believe its best for the pups produced from MY breeding.
> 
> As for the accidental breeding amongst breeder I could rattle off a large large list of names (of course I wouldn't as thats not buissness to tell) - including my own but I have said that atleast a few times before. Sorry about that what a typo to make. Around 50% (5 one below the 8 LOL) is what I would guess - sorry for the confusion.


I also changed my contract to say if for ANY reason the dog did not work out it was to come back to me....

In 23 years only 1 dog and that was about a year and a half ago...the 'know it all' engineer owner couldnt handle the dog...
We took him back and rehomed him after 6 weeks evaluation....


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Spun Gold said:


> I also changed my contract to say if for ANY reason the dog did not work out it was to come back to me....
> 
> In 23 years only 1 dog and that was about a year and a half ago...the 'know it all' engineer owner couldnt handle the dog...
> We took him back and rehomed him after 6 weeks evaluation....


Yes, my contract too includes that. Which kennel are you from??


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

tanyac said:


> I don't think Emma was suggesting that most dogs in her area are entire - the fact is that a vast majority of dogs in the UK are in fact spayed/neutered. Fortunately for our dogs they may have more freedom in public places - long may it last!


I would hazard a guess that around 50% of dogs we meet are spayed/neutered in this area...and I wouldn't say that Harry is the odd one out for being neutered...definitely not....while spaying/neutering is a very common occurance I would say most owners wait until full maturity before they do it and it is what both vets in my area advise. I still do consider Harry's issue are linked to his castration. I remember the first time anything happened and I was in shock, he had alway been so 'happy-go-lucky' with other dogs. It was about a month after his castration. Of course it could just be the way he has developed as he has matured but he had reached almost 2 years of age so I did consider him an 'adult' when he was castrated. Of course I will never know for sure but there were no other factors to cause a change in the way he behaves with other dogs, it seems to have really taken away his confidence when mixing with new dogs and he therefore feels he needs to defend himself first.


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## Spun Gold (Nov 4, 2008)

Ash said:


> Yes, my contract too includes that. Which kennel are you from??


 
Clinton Oaks/Michigan


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ash said:


> (snipped)
> As for the accidental breedings amongst breeders I could rattle off a large large list of names (of course I wouldn't as thats not buissness to tell) including my own but I have said that atleast a few times before. Sorry about that what a typo to make. Around 50% (5 one below the 8 LOL) is what I would guess - sorry for the confusion. IMO the only statements you can trust are the ones that admit to having an accidental breeding (which I have heard and seen many many of). Unfortunately, not everyone is honest.


Wow, Ash. I'm pretty cynical, but that is harsh! So, I guess that you don't believe that I have never had an accidental breeding. Nor the very large list of names of very responsible and well known breeders that I could rattle off who I absolutely know have also never had an accidental breeding? That list is far larger than my list of breeders who I know have (and have admitted to) had accidental breedings. I think that even adjusted, your figure is considerably higher than is realistic. You are right, not everyone is honest. But, by that measure, if a breeder were not, they would not be what I consider responsible and reputable.


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## Spun Gold (Nov 4, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Wow, Ash. I'm pretty cynical, but that is harsh! So, I guess that you don't believe that I have never had an accidental breeding. Nor the very large list of names of very responsible and well known breeders that I could rattle off who I absolutely know have also never had an accidental breeding? That list is far larger than my list of breeders who I know have (and have admitted to) had accidental breedings. I think that even adjusted, your figure is considerably higher than is realistic. You are right, not everyone is honest. But, by that measure, if a breeder were not, they would not be what I consider responsible and reputable.


 
knock wood...lol I have never had an accidental breeding...unless you want to count the ex neighbors intact lab x that climbed the fence and bred my 10 year old golden....(After repeated warnings that he would pay at least 10K for damages) luckily all he had to pay for was the spay as my bitch was older.
I do have Vizsla's as well as Golden's BUT my intact boys hang out together and never do they mix with my bitches...in over 30 years of being involved in purebred dogs I have never EVER had an unplanned breeding.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Maybe that came out harsher then intended. LOL all I meant is anyone can sit there and tell you they have never had anything like that happen to them - hopefully they are honest but there is really no way to tell what goes on behind closed doors. How does anyone know? Maybe for some no litter resulted from the use of a miss-mate shot should the dogs been caught "in action" (but thats a whole other topic I don't feel like digging into). All you have is that persons word hopefully its the truth but you can choose to believe it or not. As for the spaying and nuetering, its a really silly thing to argue about. People do things diffrently and I have taken the time to state my reasons - doesn't mean anyone here has to like them. At this time that is what I am comfortable with does not mean I don't have the utmost respect for many of you that have expressed diffrent views/opinions from my own. Like everything, dogs included nothing is ever black and white.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Ash said:


> People do things diffrently and I have taken the time to state my reasons - doesn't mean anyone here has to like them. At this time that is what I am comfortable with does not mean I don't have the utmost respect for many of you that have expressed diffrent views/opinions from my own. Like everything, dogs included nothing is ever black and white.


Exactly! If everyone thought the same thing then we would have a pretty boring forum...what would we talk about?!


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

I ditto what Emma says in that a wide opinion is so beneficial when making our own minds up about things. The point should be that we respect others opinions but feel we can disagree - that is after all what debate is all about. It never need to be insulting or hurtful.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Emma&Tilly said:


> From personal experience I have found there to be much more social problems with my neutered dog than there ever was when he was intact...taking away his testosterone seems to have given him a somewhat nervy disposition around other dogs...something that only occured after castration...I really do wish he has not been neutered but it was for medical reasons.


I think you may be exaggerating there. Neutering a dog has never been proven to drastically change behavior problems. TRAINING (lack of in more cases than not) is the only sure way to see any improvement. It is simply impossible and irrational to say (and prove for that matter) that neutered dogs have worse behavior than intact or vice versa.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Spun Gold said:


> The ONLY reason to neuter would be dog to dog agression and or behavior problems related to being intact. Some dogs can handle retaining possesion of their testicles no problem...I did the same thing with my GSP who I did not want to have a mis alliance with one of my GR's.
> 
> Great picture!!! I love it!


DISAGREE Strongly! Neutering alone, in severe cases as you pointed out, does NOT EVER completely solve behavior problems, especially if the dog has been intact for years. TRAINING is the key to solving behavior problems. Again, it is the owner's responsibility alone to ensure the dog receives adequate care including training and socialization as a pup.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

I also wanted to know how all of you against s/n would answer these questions:

Would you leave your dog/bitch intact:

-if he/she had CHD or other health issue?

-if he/she was absolutely PET quality and you had no plans to do anything with him/her?



Also, why are some of you for spaying bitches but against neutering dogs????? Are they really *that* different?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ash said:


> Maybe that came out harsher then intended. LOL all I meant is anyone can sit there and tell you they have never had anything like that happen to them - hopefully they are honest but there is really no way to tell what goes on behind closed doors. How does anyone know? Maybe for some no litter resulted from the use of a miss-mate shot should the dogs been caught "in action" (but thats a whole other topic I don't feel like digging into). All you have is that persons word hopefully its the truth but you can choose to believe it or not. As for the spaying and nuetering, its a really silly thing to argue about. People do things diffrently and I have taken the time to state my reasons - doesn't mean anyone here has to like them. At this time that is what I am comfortable with does not mean I don't have the utmost respect for many of you that have expressed diffrent views/opinions from my own. Like everything, dogs included nothing is ever black and white.


 
You can choose to believe it or not, yes, Ash, but to paint so many breeders (who you are referring to as reputable/responsible) as not telling the truth is, I think, very unfair. I may be misinterpreting what you are writing, but it would appear that you don't trust anyone who is telling you that they have not had an accidental breeding. I've never known anyone (reputable/responsible breeders) who has not admitted to an accidental breeding if they had one. And really, if someone tells me that they have not, and I know them to be reputable/responsible, I am inclined to believe them rather than assume that they are lying. Knowledgeable breeders would never use a mismating injection to abort a possible litter if they had plans to breed that bitch in the future - it is far too risky - so as to what happens behind closed doors, I don't think that is something done to cover up an accidental breeding too often at all (again, we are talking about responsible/reputable breeders). I am more concerned with breeders who are making breedings with dogs known to have genetic health issues and poor temperaments, or to have produced them, or are simply breeding without clearances at all than I am the rare accidental litter. I AM, like you, a proponent of spaying and neutering pets, or any dog that someone has no intention of breeding, for me because of health concerns first. And I very much encourage people to try to wait until 18-24 months for dogs, certainly, although I am not as adament about waiting past a first season for bitches.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

goldengirls550 said:


> I think you may be exaggerating there. Neutering a dog has never been proven to drastically change behavior problems. TRAINING (lack of in more cases than not) is the only sure way to see any improvement. It is simply impossible and irrational to say (and prove for that matter) that neutered dogs have worse behavior than intact or vice versa.


Erm, excuse me but I did not say that 'neutered dogs have worse behaviour than intact dogs', that is a ridiculous sweeping statement that I am quite sure I did not make. I said that in _my own personal experience_ my dog gradually became more nervy around strange dogs after he was neutered. That is not irrational or an exaggeration of what I have experienced with my own dog. You are more than welcome to disagree with what I have experienced but to call me irrational is rather rude. Why is it irrational to suspect that taking away such an important hormone as testosterone could affect a dogs behaviour? Up to the age of 2 years old we hadn't experienced a negative meeting with any new dogs (and he meets several new dogs everyday)...a month after neutering was the first time he displayed a hint of fear aggression (not much mind, just occasional growls) and it has developed since then. As I said in an earlier post (which it seems you did not read) that I don't know if that is just the way he would have developed anyway but to me (and I know this dog inside out) there were not any other factors involved that could have had an effect on his behaviour apart from his castration.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Spun Gold said:


> An undescended testical can turn cancerous eventually...however, they still have to 'go in' and retrieve it. Why can't they just remove the undescended one and leave the other in the scrotum? Females going through estrus 2 x a year are more suseptible to pyometra...plus there is the mess and risk of pregnancy if not watched closely. I am not opposed to folks spaying females after the first season or as late as possible. I am against neutering though. I think it absolutely ruins the appearance of the dog. No question about it.


 
Gina, I am confused. Your original post which started this thread indicated that you are FOR neutering, just not before 18-24 months old. And in another you say it should ONLY be done if there are temperament/agression issues. Do you require or only recommend that pet puppies you sell are altered?


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I also wanted to know how all of you against s/n would answer these questions:

*Not against it. The decision should be made per individual dog.


Would you leave your dog/bitch intact:

*Males I would leave intact unless there is an individual health reason. Females I would spay sometime after the first heat unless I was breeding her. The longer a dog/bitch is kept intact toward their full growth the better for their health. In the case of females the risk of mammary cancer becomes higher with each heat and she also has the risk of pymetria. 



-if he/she had CHD or other health issue?

*A dog with CHD should also be able to have the advantage of being intact until it reaches maturity or in females sometime after the first heat. 

-if he/she was absolutely PET quality and you had no plans to do anything with him/her?

*I have a pet quality nine year old male. He is intact. He has no behavior problems. He is well trained. The only reason to neuter him would be if he gets testical cancer or if he gets BPH and it cannot be controled.
I have always had intact males. None of them have given any gifts to produce pups. At this time I only have him. I have had both males and females at the same time and after the first heat have spayed the female. I am not a breeder just a pet owner.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Why is it irrational to suspect that taking away such an important hormone as testosterone could affect a dogs behaviour? Up to the age of 2 years old we hadn't experienced a negative meeting with any new dogs (and he meets several new dogs everyday)...a month after neutering was the first time he displayed a hint of fear aggression (not much mind, just occasional growls) and it has developed since then. As I said in an earlier post (which it seems you did not read) that I don't know if that is just the way he would have developed anyway but to me (and I know this dog inside out) there were not any other factors involved that could have had an effect on his behaviour apart from his castration.

http://www.cdoca.org/health articles/Early SN and Behavior.pdf

According to the study above over all spayed and neutered dogs had more fears and behavior problems.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

> The longer a dog/bitch is kept intact toward their full growth the better for their health


That is wrong we owned a female cattle dog that we spayed at 2 years old she came down with breast cancer the vet said if we spayed her at 6 months to a year old she wouldn't have had breast cancer. So i wouldn't say it healthier to leave them intacted longer. Our cattle dog only had 3 seasons then was spayed, From what i read the more times a female comes into season the higher chances of cancer. Same with males, I wish i nuetered Einstein at 6 months old. Einstein was nuetered at 2 years old and has a bad habit of humping people,toys,beds,other dogs. No matter how many times we tell him off he still does it he has never gotten out of it. Thats another thing it stated if male dogs are neutered at the age of 6 months reduces the risk of cancer, lifting of the leg and the sexual behavour eg humping of everything in sight. I'm not saying it stops it completely but it reduces it i've known some dogs that were neutered at 6 months hump but not as much as an entire male or a male neutered later in life. 

Like Ash said how would one keep a intacted female safe if she had a silent heat, This is the reason i spayed Shelley before her season. Silent heat shows no sign no bleeding,swalloning and behavour stays the same. 

Emma you say if your breeder you would only sell to those that are responable to keep an intact female safe till fully mature is going a bit far. Read this thread from another forum a puppy ties to a female this is a registered breeder mind you that thought his/her dog was out of season but wasn't http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=151294 o even the registered breeders make mistakes from time to time, So by saying that you will only sell to those responable enough well i'm sorry to say those puppies will be with you for a long time. Not everyone can control a dogs heat cycle if it were a silent heat the pet owner wouldn't even know even registered breeders find it difficult to control a female with silent heat cycles. Also you can't control the entire males around your house trying to get to your female that is in heat, I've seen a person taking her intact female on heat out in her backyard to the toilet. Well before she could do anything a male tied to her female. Even spraying him with the hose didn't get him off, She even used a broom stick and hit the dog still he did not move. So i don't think yelling and screaming at a dog that has one thing on its mind is going to work. So to me the only way your going to keep a intact female on heat safe is in the house 24/7 where it can poo and pee inside aswell.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> Emma you say if your breeder you would only sell to those that are responable to keep an intact female safe till fully mature is going a bit far.


Why? Why is that 'too far'. If I were a breeder I certainly wouldn't sell to someone that wasn't competent enough to stop their bitch getting pregnant before her first heat. Im not sure why this is such a sticking point for many on here. Its not like this is an unusual situation...waiting until a bitch has had her first heat cycle before it's spay is hardly uncommon....like I have said before, my vets _will not_ spay bitches untill they have had a season so it is very much the norm. 

I also feel you are struggling to see the cultural difference involved here Goldenowner12. I have repeatedly said that if I lived in an area where straying dogs were a common occurance then I would have to be much more careful with a bitch in season and if it was so bad that dogs were clambering up my fence to get to a bitch then she may well even be spayed before her first season. It is simply not an issue where I live. Dogs are not left roaming, dogs are supervised and under control. I have no personal experience of what it is like where you live, but by the sounds of it I am glad I don't have to deal with that. Owners are very responsible around here.



> She even used a broom stick and hit the dog still he did not move.


What a wicked thing to do. Not only has this poor dog got owners that don't even care enough about him to keep HIM safe from roaming he now gets beaten with a broom for doing a perfectly natural act. Yes it is unfortunate that it happened and I would immediately get the bitch spayed or give her the 'morning after' injection, but I certainly wouldn't hit the male dog with a broom...what an idiotic thing to do and Im sure could have caused damage to her bitch aswell if the male had freaked out at being hit.



> So to me the only way your going to keep a intact female on heat safe is in the house 24/7 where it can poo and pee inside aswell.


This is getting a bit silly now. I, and many other pet owners I know, have managed to keep an in-season bitch perfectly safe. If you don't feel you could then that is fine, spay your bitch as a puppy. I am quite shocked how insular some people have been on this thread...how can you not realise that other people have the ability manage a situation differently from yourself?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

solinvictus said:


> According to the study above over all spayed and neutered dogs had more fears and behavior problems.


 
The above statement is, IMO, unbelieveable. I do _not _believe for one minute that it is true. (I have not yet read the study, but I will.)


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Okay. I see a nasty argument starting. This post, I believe was meant to be informative and show pros/cons of early s/n. I'm sorry if I came across as harsh, but I do have firm beliefs on this subject.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Emma&Tilly said:


> Why? Why is that 'too far'. If I were a breeder I certainly wouldn't sell to someone that wasn't competent enough to stop their bitch getting pregnant before her first heat. Im not sure why this is such a sticking point for many on here. Its not like this is an unusual situation...waiting until a bitch has had her first heat cycle before it's spay is hardly uncommon....like I have said before, my vets _will not_ spay bitches untill they have had a season so it is very much the norm.
> 
> I also feel you are struggling to see the cultural difference involved here Goldenowner12. I have repeatedly said that if I lived in an area where straying dogs were a common occurance then I would have to be much more careful with a bitch in season and if it was so bad that dogs were clambering up my fence to get to a bitch then she may well even be spayed before her first season. It is simply not an issue where I live. Dogs are not left roaming, dogs are supervised and under control. I have no personal experience of what it is like where you live, but by the sounds of it I am glad I don't have to deal with that. Owners are very responsible around here.
> 
> ...


So what your saying is there entire males won't try to escape there yard to get to a female in heat. A entire male can smell a female in heat for miles away, All it takes is wind blowing in the right direction. All i'm saying is if a entire male wants that female he will do anything to get to her. The dogs in my area don't roam but if a female came in heat they would escape there yards no dount about it. Some females also go searching which causes them to escape there yards too. If your vets don't spay a female before its first season what do the shelters do specially if a family wanted to adopt a 12 week old puppy, Does the shelter say you have to wait till she has her first heat before she can leave. If someone demends for there puppy to be spayed before its first heat cycle the vets shouldn't be allowed to turn them down, If they did and that female fell pregant then they could sue the vet for not spaying her when they wanted her done. People are sueing for all kind of reason these days so this is not possible. I'm not trying to agrue i'm just stating that even the best breeder in the world wouldn't be able to tell if a female is in heat if its a silent heat. They would need to know there females cycle to know when she is due to come in,Thats difficult if the very first females heat is a silent one. I reckon if your dog is going to be a family pet why keep it intacted spay & neuter asap.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

The longer a dog/bitch is kept intact toward their full growth the better for their health GoldenOwner12 wrote:That is wrong we owned a female cattle dog that we spayed at 2 years old she came down with breast cancer the vet said if we spayed her at 6 months to a year old she wouldn't have had breast cancer. So i wouldn't say it healthier to leave them intacted longer. Our cattle dog only had 3 seasons then was spayed, From what i read the more times a female comes into season the higher chances of cancer.

I had clarified my statement above on my next line which for some reason you chose to acknowledge. Here it is again.

Sol wrote: The longer a dog/bitch is kept intact toward their full growth the better for their health. In the case of females the risk of mammary cancer becomes higher with each heat and she also has the risk of pymetria. 

So I did say the risk becomes higher for certain health problems in females.

Your vet can only make an educated guess because of knowing that risk. The vet cannot make a statement of fact that the dog would not have gotten cancer at all if she had been spayed.

While the risk for mammary cancer goes up by holding off the spay the risk of bone cancer goes down. We as owners must weigh all of the information and then make an informed decision. As I stated I would spay a female sometime after the first heat if she was not in a breeding program. 

GoldenOwner12 wrote:Same with males, I wish i nuetered Einstein at 6 months old. Einstein was nuetered at 2 years old and has a bad habit of humping people,toys,beds,other dogs. No matter how many times we tell him off he still does it he has never gotten out of it. Thats another thing it stated if male dogs are neutered at the age of 6 months reduces the risk of cancer, lifting of the leg and the sexual behavour eg humping of everything in sight. I'm not saying it stops it completely but it reduces it i've known some dogs that were neutered at 6 months hump but not as much as an entire male or a male neutered later in life

Males are not the same. Neutering does eliminate testicular cancer. In most cases when a dog has testicular cancer they can eliminate it at the time by neutering. The risk is small. In the studies I have read it seems that keeping a dog intact does lower the risk in most cancers. Humping and marking are behavior problems and quality training and management can solve those problems.

Having intact males and females in the same household is not easy. It takes a lot of work. Even the best of the best can make a mistake. Under the assumption that it can happen no one should ever have intact males and females in the same household because no matter how good at management you are a mistake could happen.

GoldenOwner12 wrote:Also you can't control the entire males around your house trying to get to your female that is in heat,

To insure that an intact female is not mated the owner must control the females enviroment. It is up to the owner to keep her safe. No one said that is easy.

GoldenOwner12 wrote:I've seen a person taking her intact female on heat out in her backyard to the toilet. Well before she could do anything a male tied to her female.

I guess anything can happen but to me it sounds a little off that she couldn't protect her dog if she was with the dog in a controled on leash situation. 

GoldenOwner12 wrote:Even spraying him with the hose didn't get him off, She even used a broom stick and hit the dog still he did not move. So i don't think yelling and screaming at a dog that has one thing on its mind is going to work.

Hitting a dog with a broom sounds so abusive. Attempting to stop a dog after he has entered the female can harm both of them. 

I don't think yelling and screaming has ever been a good way to train dogs. The dogs already need to be trained prior to this type of situation and in the case of a stray getting into a yard. That is when management skills come into play. 

Goldenowner12 wrote: So to me the only way your going to keep a intact female on heat safe is in the house 24/7 where it can poo and pee inside aswell.

Females are at different forms of competition all the time and in most cases nothing ever happens. 

Everyone has had different experiences and knows their limits and skills and should make informed decisions for the health of their pets from their knowledge.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> what do the shelters do specially if a family wanted to adopt a 12 week old puppy, Does the shelter say you have to wait till she has her first heat before she can leave.


No, there wouldn't be any need for that. It would be normal for them to give you a voucher towards the cost of the surgery for you to do it when the dog is mature. This is exactly what happened with my own rescue puppy. Again, its handing over some level of trust and responsibility to the new owners, something that seems to be severely lacking!


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Originally Posted by *GoldenOwner12*  
_what do the shelters do specially if a family wanted to adopt a 12 week old puppy, Does the shelter say you have to wait till she has her first heat before she can leave._

_Many shelters choose to castrate the puppies in their care early do to their concerns with population. Some must do it as it is the law in their state. Others choose to adopt the pup out with a contract that states the pup must be spayed by a particular time, again usually prior to the first heat because of their concern on population._

_They own the pup/dog they make the conditions (contract). The same with breeders they own the dog/pup they make the conditions (contract). They all weigh the information out their and then make decisions based on what they consider is the most important thing to them._

_Each of us that purchases the dog/pup knows upfront the conditions/contract that we purchase under and should abide by the contract or look elsewhere if we are not in aggreement with that contract._

_Once we own the pup/dog it is up to us to follow the contract and to do everything in our power to give the dog a healthy, safe, and happy home for life. Dogs/pups do not usually come to us fully trained and training is an on going throughout life process so if someone isn't willing to do the work they shouldn't own a dog/pup. If you (generic) know that you (generic) cannot follow through by keeping a female through her first heat and the breeder wants you (generic) to then this must be discussed and agreed upon before you (generic) take ownership. The same goes if you (generic) want a pup/dog to reach full maturity prior to castration again this must be discussed and agreed upon prior to ownership. _

_In the case of shelters and rescues you (generic) already know that their main concern is to stop additional population and know that any contract you (generic) sign will reflect that. Most of the dogs that end up in shelters or rescues are because of poor ownership. Shelters and Rescues are giving those dogs a second chance on life, if one of their conditions is to have the dog/pup castrated in order to give them that chance on life so be it. Each group or person in control puts different weights of importance (values) on different parts of the equation._
_Shelters/Rescues put a higher value on population control_
_Individual Breeders may put a higher value on population control_
_Individual Breeders may put a higher value on the whole health of each individual dog._
_They are choices made by knowledge and experience both ways are right._


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Two interesting commentaries by I believe a DVM.

http://www.mmilani.com/commentary-200509.html (imo)this cites a study done on rotties, that golden owners and breeders should consider since it is cancer. It also has other information.

In her second commentary she does state that in using the rotti study there isn't enough evidence yet to make the claim across the board in all breeds but imo with cancer being a top concern in goldens with information from the Golden Retriever Club I think that study should be weighed in thoughts on goldens...
any way here is her second link

http://www.mmilani.com/commentary-200511.html

"Then we can make a rational decision whether the price that _all_ sterilized animals and their species are being asked to pay for the behavior of an irresponsible portion of _human_ population is worth it."

Since her commentaries there has been more coverage on these studies, and I wish there were even more studies.

Here is the subject of cancer in goldens.

http://www.grca.org/pdf/health/cancer.pdf

Weighing all the knowledge we have and making informed decisions is important.
Choosing to spay and neuter after having all the information is right for that individual.
Choosing to not spay and neuter after having all the information is right for that individual.
Each owner (again following their contract) takes in all the information and makes an informed decision on what they consider the higher value in the equation.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

I think there are a lot of good points there, but I think it is interesting that the only dog I have waited to spay was Sydney and yet she is the only dog that has had a "negative" reaction to being spayed (almost immediately developed hypothyroid). She was over 2 when I spayed her. All of my rescues, we've done early (some even earlier than 6 mths, in the case of my Chico since we really didn't realize how young he was at the time). Chico lived to be 15 yrs old and never showed any negative effects of his early neuter (he was probably 16 wks at the time, but the vet insisted he was a sheltie, when we believe he was a border collie/shep... much larger than a sheltie). Granted, I think I would still wait if possible with any other dogs I get. Maybe we're atypical (or just lucky) in that we've not had any issues with early spay/neuter. BJ


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

What about in a case like Fenway who is now almost 5 months and maybe a PRA carrier? 

He has a PRA carrier-tested mom(Topbrass Sandy Sox) and his grampa(Can. Dual CH AFTCH Firemark's Push Comes to Shove Am.*** OS) is a PRA carrier as well; his father, Ch Sunkota's Phorgone Conclusion is PRA negative- tested healthy. Fenway may likely be a carrier, but has not been optigen tested bc he will not be bred. The vet emphatically argues for neutering early rather than late in his case bc of the whole PRA issue. Would you wait until 24 months anyway?


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## Spun Gold (Nov 4, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> What about in a case like Fenway who is now almost 5 months and maybe a PRA carrier?
> 
> He has a PRA carrier-tested mom(Topbrass Sandy Sox) and his grampa(Can. Dual CH AFTCH Firemark's Push Comes to Shove Am.*** OS) is a PRA carrier as well; his father, Ch Sunkota's Phorgone Conclusion is PRA negative- tested healthy. Fenway may likely be a carrier, but has not been optigen tested bc he will not be bred. The vet emphatically argues for neutering early rather than late in his case bc of the whole PRA issue. Would you wait until 24 months anyway?


 
What does being a PRA carrier have to do with neutering at an age that is MORE healthy for the dog. Early neutering will not prevent him from developing PRA...Now, if YOU would have a problem controlling his actions, meaning, allowing him to come in contact with an intact bitch and breeding her...then do it. 
Doesn't matter if he is a known carrier or not, you are delaying the neuter because in the grand scheme of things HE will have a reduced chance of developing bone cancer or hemangiosarcoma...send your vet the information in my initial post. Let him read it.

The purpose of my delaying neutering and spaying is NOT to breed dogs or allow them to be bred. My dogs are still sold on a limited. The purpose is to reduce the chances of the cancers and other ailments associated with altering an animal at an early age. It is the LONGTERM health I am worried about. Tell your vet he will still get your money...just maybe in early 2010 instead of now...


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## Spun Gold (Nov 4, 2008)

Being new to this Forum I have no idea what has been discussed and what has not so with that said you have my reason for floating this question.

Spaying and Neutering is a man made procedure. Most of the dogs that come to my boarding kennel are altered. It does make them easier to handle in social situations. I also know a lot of dogs that are unaltered that are just fine as well. Medical Science tells me that if we remove the reproductive organs on humans at an early age...there will be a plethora of health issues. 
Common sense make me wonder why are dogs different?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Spun Gold said:


> Being new to this Forum I have no idea what has been discussed and what has not so with that said you have my reason for floating this question.
> 
> Spaying and Neutering is a man made procedure. Most of the dogs that come to my boarding kennel are altered. It does make them easier to handle in social situations. I also know a lot of dogs that are unaltered that are just fine as well. Medical Science tells me that if we remove the reproductive organs on humans at an early age...there will be a plethora of health issues.
> Common sense make me wonder why are dogs different?


Luckily, he cannot develop PRA, and the breeders are all so ethical and awesome about testing/ disclosing.

I'm just saying many pups on limited reg are still sold with 6-9 month neuter age as part of their contracts for specific reasons and I do not think that is as awful as you do. Not all breeders agree and not all vets agree on this issue . To me, it's a risks; benefits analysis just like to vaccinate or not vaccinate, to give a daily 81 buffered asprin or not (The Faera dogs get this- and my vet agrees it is potentially promising), not to use lawn chemicals, to filter drinking water; there are lots of studies on lots of topics involving cancer prevention. More and more people are coming to agree with you in the golden world, myself included because of the cancer research. I am not arguing with you- but just moderating the tone and tenor. I dont believe in zealotry either way. I would no longer neuter a male golden early, however we have had three live until midteens who were neutered in the 6-9 month zone and lost a girl at only 10 who was spayed after her first heat. Ancedotal experience is no substitute for science, but all goldens are prone to hemanigosarcoma. There are lots of components to hemangiosarcoma risk- like genetics- so overfocusing on neutering as a primary cause of cancer IMO is a mistake. It is not a simple equivalence of saying neutering sets you do up for hemanigiosarcoma. Spay/neuter is more of a cloudy issue to me than it is to you.


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## Spun Gold (Nov 4, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Luckily, he cannot develop PRA, and the breeders are all so ethical and awesome about testing/ disclosing.
> 
> I'm just saying many pups on limited reg are still sold with 6-9 month neuter age as part of their contracts for specific reasons. I would no longer neuter a male golden early, however we have had three live until midteens who were neutered in the 6-9 month zone and lost a girl at only 10 who was spayed after her first heat. Ancedotal experience is no substitute for science, but all goldens are prone to hemanigosarcoma. Spay/Neuter is more of a cloudy issue to me than it is to you.


I recently changed my contract, but I have found out there have been more than a few folks who have not neutered their males...
I recommend it on my contract not require it...how would I enforce it anyway? I sold on a limited...so it makes no difference


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