# Help - Top Agility Sires



## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Our next breeding is a *long *ways out. I have several thoughts on who I may use as our next stud dog for Amber. However all my previous considerations have centered on field dogs. I would like to gather my list of candidates now so that I can do thorough research and perhaps schedule a visit.

I would like to broaden our search. I am not at all in the agility circles and really dont know what is out there. I am hoping that some of you could suggest some known sires in the agility world.

I am looking for:
1) AN ATHLETE. I want *speed* and a very lean muscular build.
2) INTELLIGENCE. I want a dog that can *truly think* through a situation.
3) HEALTH. My preference here is for a pedigree with a history of longevity. Additionally I would prefer that the stud himself also be 8 years or older (but not necessary). I will also look at the history of health clearances.

Additional considerations: I am _not opposed to looking anywh_ere in the country (or Canada) but preference would be to west coast dogs.

Amber is SEMPER KLAMATH RIVER AMBER ALE ** and out of FC Glenhavens HTRS MN Baronet MH and Semper Wasatch Alexis SH **. She is found on K9data. She is athletic (still havent seen a faster bitch) but a bit of an airhead at times. She has run derbies, and a few Quals. She will be running Masters this year and I see no problems in titling as MH.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts... and yes I am more than happy to take them as private messages... but keep the comments positive.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I'm no expert or even close, but here are a few dogs I remember from my extended two year puppy search!

(Frozen) OTCH MACH Sunfire's Undeniable VCD3 UDX RAE TDX MH NAP NJP WCX OBHF ADHF ** OS 

I keep an eye on Morninglo's Fire In The Sky bc he's seems so intelligenthttp://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=28730
OTCH U-UD Morninglo Fire in the Sky UDX4 MH NA NAJ WCX VCX OS (CH ptd.) CanCD (2/20/1997-)

Tanbark's Player:http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=22954

OTCH MACH 9 U-CDX Coppertop's Live Wire VCD3 UDX TDX MH MXF WCX CCA VCX ADHF OS


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

This is a great website that lists all sorts of great statistics, such as dogs and litters who have produced the most titles in a certain field, etc. including MACH

http://www.undeniablegoldens.com/TopGoldenProducers.html


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Klamath Gold said:


> I am looking for:
> 1) AN ATHLETE. I want *speed* and a very lean muscular build.
> 2) INTELLIGENCE. I want a dog that can *truly think* through a situation.
> 3) HEALTH. My preference here is for a pedigree with a history of longevity. Additionally I would prefer that the stud himself also be 8 years or older (but not necessary). I will also look at the history of health clearances.


My only suggestion is to look closely at what some of the "agility sires" are producing. I'm seeing (on the east coast) a lot of bad structure and some questionable temperaments from lines that are just bred for agility. They are fast dogs that seem to be very biddable - but they aren't trustworthy around other dogs in the gate or on grounds - or their drive far outmatches their physical soundness. Of course some of the same things can be said for breeding for any specific trait without stepping back to look at the whole picture.

IMO there are a lot of goldens out there that are producing brains, beauty and drive with nice golden temperaments - not a lot of them would be considered "agility sires" - though they have offspring out there doing "stuff".

Erica


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Someone once told me that if you see a dog you like then look at the sire as he is the one who produced the dog you like. These dogs may not be agility dogs themselves but have produce MACH, OTCH, MH, ***.
You may have already considered some of these boys, seeing their field background, but thought I would throw them out there anyway. 

Eli
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=14611

Speaker
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=14135

Jake
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=592

Steeler
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=483


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I agree with Erica, structure is important. No point in having a fast drivey dog who needs elbows replaced or breaks down in their prime. Or getting banned for temperment issues. 

That being said, I'm thrilled with Storee - she's a Push daughter. We're hitting the ring this year and will see what she does, but she's so far been very quick to learn things (after the independant puppy stage was over anyway) and is very athletic. She easily jumps four feet in the air when I'm going out to the gate, and can outrun my border collie to the ball every time. She is small but proportioned (a bit on the narrow side but just 2 years old), birdy, busy and sweet.

Lana


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

I personally believe that goldens should be able to do it all... and Sydney is certainly that kind of dog. I cant really comment too much about things I dont know about, but her father has certainly produced some good dogs. He'd be 13 now.

BISS Am/Can Ch Chuckanut's Brasstime TD, JH, NA, NAJ, WC, VCX, OS, SDHF; Can TD, JH, WC, OS "Banjo" http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=19240

Ken and Wayne are in Washington state (Bellingham) and I'm sure they could give you all kinds of details about him. But in Sydney's litter, there were 3 girls. 2 of the 3 finished their championships (3rd did very well and was pointed, but spayed). 2 of 3 have obedience titles (that was more the pointed sister's thing), and Sydney has agility and tracking titles as well.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

My Quiz is a Player son. Couldn't be happier with him! The breeding of Player to another Tanbark dog created 9 pups -- and I believe all of them went into working homes. My understanding is that all the pups are very accomplished in obedience, agility and hunt tests. They are smaller pups, though. I know that at least three of the boys, including Quiz, are under 22" at the shoulder, so they are under standard.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Bender said:


> - she's a Push daughter. Lana





FlyingQuizini said:


> My Quiz is a Player son.


May I ask what the registered names or links to k9data for these dogs? Not all of us know who you may be referring to.

Thanks


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

Push is Firemark's Push Comes to Shove - http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=44966

When I first started looking for my agility prospect I was looking at a Push pup. I didn't end up with one, but one of my favorite goldens to watch around here is a Push daughter.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

This may be way off track and I'm just passing along something I was told. The owners of the place where we train for agility have both goldens and flat coats. They told me that when you breed for agility you want to be sure the dog is not at all long in the body, and even though the standard calls for 11:12 for the goldens (and I believe flat coats) they prefer an 11:11 ratio of height to length. I was told that this assures that the dogs can jump okay.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Fenway is a Push grandson- what a great dog Push is- the only living dual champion and perhaps to be a triple champion. . . The one thing about breeding to Push is to PRA test your girl. He is a carrier. http://www.ambertrail.com/pushstuddog.html


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> This may be way off track and I'm just passing along something I was told. The owners of the place where we train for agility have both goldens and flat coats. They told me that when you breed for agility you want to be sure the dog is not at all long in the body, and even though the standard calls for 11:12 for the goldens (and I believe flat coats) they prefer an 11:11 ratio of height to length. I was told that this assures that the dogs can jump okay.


 
I think you also have to take into consideration the overall conformation of the dog. I see a lot of Belgian Shepherds that are square but can't move right. And I know of a Golden who is very correct (if he was bigger he'd be in specials, has his CH) and runs 4.2 in flyball consistantly, even as a five year old (faster than most of the square, lighter boned BS's too).

Lana


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> Fenway is a Push grandson- what a great dog Push is- the only living dual champion and perhaps to be a triple champion. . . The one thing about breeding to Push is to PRA test your girl. He is a carrier. http://www.ambertrail.com/pushstuddog.html


At the bottom of that web page it states

"Push is available for sale, contact us for more information"

Anyone have any idea what this really means?

Sorry if this is :hijacked: but I am very confused by it.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Fenway is a Push grandson- what a great dog Push is- the only living dual champion and perhaps to be a triple champion. . . The one thing about breeding to Push is to PRA test your girl. He is a carrier. http://www.ambertrail.com/pushstuddog.html


True, but shouldn't breeders be testing anyway regardless?

Lana


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Agreed. I admire all the people who went above & beyond with optigen even though it's controversial still. Fenway is clear.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

AmbikaGR said:


> May I ask what the registered names or links to k9data for these dogs? Not all of us know who you may be referring to.
> 
> Thanks


Quiz's info is in my signature. He's Tanbark's Number Two Pencil.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> Someone once told me that if you see a dog you like then look at the sire as he is the one who produced the dog you like.


That's how I ended up with my little girl, she is great so far so worked for me!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> I'm no expert or even close, but here are a few dogs I remember from my extended two year puppy search!
> 
> (Frozen) OTCH MACH Sunfire's Undeniable VCD3 UDX RAE TDX MH NAP NJP WCX OBHF ADHF ** OS


Comet's grandpappy!


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Hmmm, I have a bit of a problem giving you a good answer, as the sire I came up with when I was looking for my next agility dog was Bart! And well, that is not an option for you!

As far as top agility Goldens you can look here
http://www.grca.org/pdf/events/agility/2007agilityrankings.pdf 

Then check pedigrees to see what they are producing and who produced them
I have always noticed most of the top agility dogs have field/obedience in the lines...


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Thank You to everyone for sharing their thoughts and passing along the names of some very nice dogs. I will be looking at them, doing research, and all that is necessary to finally come up with "mr right!"

We are still some time away from making a decision, however I would rather do the research now and have some "finalists" entered as test breedings. For what it is worth, I think we are about 10 months out.

Again thank you to everyone who has taken the time to post or to send messages. I do appreciate it.

Randy


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

How about Mr. DJ? CH Westin Having A Party UD JH OA OAJ WCX VCX http://passionforgold.com/MisterDJ.html

I am curious about him.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> This may be way off track and I'm just passing along something I was told. The owners of the place where we train for agility have both goldens and flat coats. They told me that when you breed for agility you want to be sure the dog is not at all long in the body, and even though the standard calls for 11:12 for the goldens (and I believe flat coats) they prefer an 11:11 ratio of height to length. I was told that this assures that the dogs can jump okay.


I hear that a lot too - and it's like nails on a chalkboard for me. First - there's a breed standard for a reason - we don't have an agility standard, an obedience standard, etc. We're already moving towards two breeds with the field and the conformation stock - breeding primarily for agility - the hole gets deeper....shorter backed dogs with longer legs for agility is mind-boggling - some people really want to make goldens into small tiny, bendy and off the wall dogs that run fast, run through pain and don't ever shut off - essentially yellow border collies - with some pretty nasty temperaments as a result. Emphasis on one trait without the larger picture is always disastrous. There are a lot of sound, talented and athletic goldens that are 11:12 ratio - but they aren't going to be confused with a border collie and isn't that the point?

Erica


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

MurphyTeller said:


> I hear that a lot too - and it's like nails on a chalkboard for me. First - there's a breed standard for a reason - we don't have an agility standard, an obedience standard, etc. We're already moving towards two breeds with the field and the conformation stock - breeding primarily for agility - the hole gets deeper....shorter backed dogs with longer legs for agility is mind-boggling - some people really want to make goldens into small tiny, bendy and off the wall dogs that run fast, run through pain and don't ever shut off - essentially yellow border collies - with some pretty nasty temperaments as a result. Emphasis on one trait without the larger picture is always disastrous. There are a lot of sound, talented and athletic goldens that are 11:12 ratio - but they aren't going to be confused with a border collie and isn't that the point?
> 
> Erica


:appl::appl::appl::appl:


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

MurphyTeller said:


> I hear that a lot too - and it's like nails on a chalkboard for me. First - there's a breed standard for a reason - we don't have an agility standard, an obedience standard, etc. We're already moving towards two breeds with the field and the conformation stock - breeding primarily for agility - the hole gets deeper....shorter backed dogs with longer legs for agility is mind-boggling - some people really want to make goldens into small tiny, bendy and off the wall dogs that run fast, run through pain and don't ever shut off - essentially yellow border collies - with some pretty nasty temperaments as a result. Emphasis on one trait without the larger picture is always disastrous. There are a lot of sound, talented and athletic goldens that are 11:12 ratio - but they aren't going to be confused with a border collie and isn't that the point?
> 
> Erica


100% agree! That is my biggest "beef" with the people stating they are breeding for "field stock". And I am a firm believer that my dog should be able to do it all.... field, conformation, agility, obedience, companion, whatever I want. I have springer friends that say the same thing is happening with their breed as well... so we're not alone, but its a hard concept for me to get my brain around.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Kohanagold said:


> 100% agree! That is my biggest "beef" with the people stating they are breeding for "field stock". And I am a firm believer that my dog should be able to do it all.... field, conformation, agility, obedience, companion, whatever I want. I have springer friends that say the same thing is happening with their breed as well... so we're not alone, but its a hard concept for me to get my brain around.


Wow Kohona gold and MurphyTeller. That was exactly how I would have put it. This is exactly what I have been trying to tell my mom. I want to have multi-purpose Goldens. My mom isn't into Conformation as much as obedience and agility but I told her if I just focused on obedience and agility, the Goldens would turn into skinny little "yellow border collies". I can't imagine the effects down the line on health and temperment. Sure, you can do health testing, but the Golden really stops acting and looking like a Golden. We are, in fact, on our way to making two "varieties" of Goldens. Judges really should consider separating them into: Retrievers (Golden) Breed Type and Retrievers (Golden) Performance Type. JK, jk guys .

When and if I ever decided to breed, I will choose well-rounded sires. Yes, there may be litters geared more towards obedience or conformation, but I want a Golden who "can do it all". After all, I really think that's what Goldens were really bred to do. Don't worry, guys. Breeding is YEARS down the road. We're just having fun competing and showing for now! :wave:

Oh, the "yellow border collie" comment reminded me. (Btw, the comment was very clever ). I see the same thing happening in other breeds as well. Border collies are really dividing, more than I think people realize. It is difficult to finish a herding type border collie. Ask bc people how hard it is to finish a blue merle. I have seen too many border collies with excessive lengthy coat and angulation that would prevent them from getting their job done on a farm. They have lost their working ability. But the same goes for the agility crowd. My dad and I swear that some people are breeding simply to get a wicked fast agility dog. The dog's temperament is sacrificed as a result. They appear, in my opinion, crazy and difficult to live with. Go to a big agility event and watch some of the winning BC's outside of the ring and you will see what I mean. Now, I'm not saying this applies to everyone. My friend, for instance, has truly the versatile BC with successful dogs shown in Breed, agility, herding, and obedience. And we all know and appreciate those in our breed who have turned the Golden into a reliable working partner and well-accomplished show dog. (I can think of a few right off the bat on this forum).

So basically, I would choose a dog with sound body, mind, and working ability. A few great choices have already been named. I would list some more, but I think that this is starting to turn into a novel. :


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## Fotopup (Mar 2, 2009)

*Agility Sires*

Check out

High Times All R Money on Red ** MH MX MXJ OS - Reno

He is the sire of

OTCH High Times what a Hoot*** UDX11 MH MX MXJ ( halfway to his MACH in under a year)

Outstanding sire in his first litter TONS of drive, great structure. Very pleasant dog

Was recently bred to OTCH High Times Belvedere's Duck Soup*** UDX11 MH MX MXJ

I am taking a bitch out of the litter.

Good luck in your search!


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> At the bottom of that web page it states
> 
> "Push is available for sale, contact us for more information"
> 
> ...


I saw that too. Hmmmmm....

Maybe we can take up a collection? Count me in for five bucks.


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## John G (Dec 27, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> Someone once told me that if you see a dog you like then look at the sire as he is the one who produced the dog you like. These dogs may not be agility dogs themselves but have produce MACH, OTCH, MH, ***.
> You may have already considered some of these boys, seeing their field background, but thought I would throw them out there anyway.
> 
> Eli
> ...


I love your list!!!! I have been fortunate enough to have pups from both Steeler and Eli and have also seen Eli and Speaker quite a bit. 

I thought your best pick was Jake, until I realized it was a Jake I was not familiar with! Randy knows how I feel about another Jake.

Good luck Randy!

John


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

I hadnt checked this thread in quite some time as I think it had died for awhile.

I have researched and the researching will continue. Some names that have been dropped have been quite intriguing but no decisions yet.

Amber came into heat over the weekend. She will not be bred this go 'round. I am now approximately 7 months from making a decision.

Thanks again for all the input.


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