# Swimming



## dexter0125 (Mar 20, 2011)

I'm sure this has been asked several times, so I apologize for any repetition.

Summer time is coming fast, and here in North Carolina it is already 88 degrees! So nice  I live on a river, so of course my summer consists of swimming, boating, jetskiing, etc. Dexter is almost 4 months old, so he is still very young, but I've tried taking him into the shallow water around my pier where he can still stand. He also has a little kiddy pool he LOVES to get in and splash around. In his kiddy pool, he is fine, but when he is in the river he acts scared. I've tried taking his favorite ball out there to get him to move around a little, but he just stands there.

I realize he is still very young and it'll take time. I got a golden because they love water, and I wanted someone to play with and swim with me. So obviously I don't want him to be terrified of the water.

SO my question is, what age did your pup start swimming? How long did it take for him or her to get accustomed to it? How did you help them or did they just do it on their own? 

I refuse to just throw him in the water like some folks seem to think is the thing to do..I don't want to scare him to death!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Jacks was about 5 months old when we got him in the water the first time. His big brother was in the water to show him the way. I remember Danny flopped down in the shallows and just lay there soaking in the cool water with a big grin on his face. Meanwhile there was Jacks doing zoomies around him. Two beach outings later and we had two dog-seals snuffling and paddling around a little deeper. And over time he started getting used to going deeper with me. 

If you go in the water with the pups ON LEASH and gradually let the puppy go in as far as he wants, he will get the idea. And go in there with him. If you don't have any other dogs but know anybody with dogs who like swimming, ask them to bring their dogs out to show your pup how it's done.


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## MyBuddy22 (Oct 29, 2010)

Bauer lovvvvves swimming I introduced him at 4 or 5 months. He was nervous but the water was cooler back then. I started out by having him put his feet in a creek, then he got more comfortable and loves the water now (can see him in my avatar)


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

*DO NOT THROW HIM IN THE WATER* I would find a shallow area with no current and let him work it out. Walk out there with him gradually and deeper don't make a fuss over him not doing it the first time let him work it out. Keep telling him he is a good dog. Stay Cool.. If you force it you will make it unpleasant which is the worst thing you can do!! I do not introduce water on a leash because it can cause anxiety and he's already got that with something new.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I do not introduce water on a leash because it can cause anxiety and he's already got that with something new.


I think this probably depends on how you are using the leash or why. .


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

"Well I am being forced into this water and my feet can't touch bottom. I don't feel safe but I guess I have to do it" That makes sense to pup's introduction to water???
Or for SAFETY REASONS?? If your not willing to go in after your pup don't put him in there!
Beside the fact he can get tangled up in it and panic or worse. The object is for your pup to enjoy the experience.


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

My golden learnt to swim,the day after we got her.She was 3mths old.She,just,followed me,in the water.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Radarsdad said:


> "Well I am being forced into this water and my feet can't touch bottom. I don't feel safe but I guess I have to do it" That makes sense to pup's introduction to water???
> Or for SAFETY REASONS?? If your not willing to go in after your pup don't put him in there!
> Beside the fact he can get tangled up in it and panic or worse. The object is for your pup like the experience.


Proper leash training does not mean any dragging or "forcing" either by the dog or the owner. Not anymore than walking your dog out on leash in a new territory. So on leash in the shallows. On leash as you let your dog go swimming out deeper with you out there with the pup. 

And I think there are special lines you can put on your dog which float and don't get tangled.

But the reason why I suggested a leash is because a 5 month old golden can swim and run a lot faster than the 2 legged owner. I also read "river" in the OP's post and immediately thought about some rivers I've gone swimming in. Sometimes there can be a pretty strong current. There is another thread here on GRF where the owner went into a panic because her dog was swimming out to sea after a ball or something.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Still don't understand the reasoning for the leash if you are trying to get your pup to swim. You took him there to go swimming. Which is what the OP said. If a 5 month old pup can swim better than you can. Why put a leash on him that can snag on something in current and drown him!!!!!!!!! His pup is just nervous about the current he should get used to it with a little time and encouragement.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Radarsdad said:


> Still don't understand the reasoning for the leash if you are trying to get your pup to swim. You took him there to go swimming. Which is what the OP said. If a 5 month old pup can swim better than you can. Why put a leash on him that can snag on something in current and drown him!!!!!!!!! His pup is just nervous about the current he should get used to it with a little time and encouragement.


 :uhoh: : 

As I said, I'm not trying to argue. 

But the leash is there to maintain control on your dog until that dog has shown he has strong obedience skills and can be trusted off leash. 

Untrained dogs running amuck in river or beach areas and interfering with other people is the reason why so many of us have to sneak our dogs into areas where there is decent water for them to swim in. 

A leash is there to keep your dog from swimming away into the sunset. 

A leash is there to keep your dog from hopping out of the water and finding something more fun to do - like running away into the woods. 

A leash is there to train your young dog and keep him under control. 

My three year old does not have a leash on when he goes swimming. And he is allowed to go out further and into areas where he probably could drown if his legs were tangled. Or well, I would probably drown if I were out there with him. :

When he was 5 months old, that collar and leash was on him and I went out into the water with him to keep him from getting tangled up or whatever. 

Yes, they can swim on leash. 

Without getting tangled up. 

And if you are worried about tangly leashes, there are leashes you can buy which float and do not tangle.

And they have a pretty fun time actually. Especially if you take it easy and don't haul your dog out to sea before he's actually grown some swimming muscles.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

You win,I am not going argue further. The point I am not considering is that I train my dogs to reliable with or without a lead (preferably without) and feel comfortable taking them pretty much anywhere without a lead. But I will not introduce my dogs to water with a lead on.

Anyway hope you have a wonderful week.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Radarsdad said:


> You win,I am not going argue further. The point I am not considering is that I train my dogs to reliable with or without a lead (preferably without) and feel comfortable taking them pretty much anywhere without a lead. But I will not introduce my dogs to water with a lead on.
> 
> Anyway hope you have a wonderful week.


I wasn't trying to win... 

And I'm sure your perspective comes from training your dogs for fieldwork. And you likely have a zap collar on them for training instead of a leash - unless I'm generalizing here.

But ack - for general populace and most golden owners (like me) - that leash is the best training tool at your disposal. And I guess I feel that off leash work is something that is earned by reliability. And I don't expect solid obedience from a 5 month old golden retriever. That's about that time when they are discovering the world and having all kinds of hormones messing with their brains.


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## RetrieverRab (May 19, 2011)

Has anyone had any trouble with ear infections due to swimming? Rab went back to the vet today for the second ear infection. Vet seems to think that is due to swimming and the water thats getting in there. I've been using ear cleaning solution and drying out as best as I can but apparently its not enough?? Today he shaved some excess hair from under his ear around the canal to help with ventalation as well as moist hair under the ear. Any thoughts would be appreciated, thanks!


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## dexter0125 (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanks for the help guys.

Like I said, I would NEVER throw him in there. We had a lab puppy when I was little that fell in the water and he never wanted to get in again. So there's no way.

I also would never let Dexter get in by himself. I'm always with him whether it be right beside him or a few feet away trying to get him to come to me with a toy. He did swim to the steps and get out onto our pier a few times. Then he went potty on the pier...lol. Silly boy.

Thankfully, where we are there is no current near our pier (and where there is current, it isn't strong, but it's quite far from where he will be swimming) so he can't be swept away from me. We actually live on a reservoir and the river runs through it. The water is still only in the 75 degree range and it is cold to me, so it very well may be cold to him. He doesn't act like he minds in his little pool though  It's so funny. He LOVES water. He loves his pool. He loves being squirted with the water hose. He loves drinking out of the water hose..I can't use a squirt bottle to keep him from jumping because he likes it..he loves to ride on the boat..but I guess this will just take time. It'll be in the 90s all week so we'll be out there a good bit.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Gibbs swam for the first time yesterday at 11 months. 

We'd been bringing him to a small pond(s) several times and never pushed the issue. We'd praise him like heck when he got a ball and got his hocks wet. Little by little. Finally- HE DID IT! For a while I was worried we would have a retriever that didn't like to swim.  I think it came with age and confidence. 

We did not use a leash. We were at a dog park... but even if we weren't, I agree about the tangling. You need to be careful.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> He did swim to the steps and get out onto our pier a few times. Then he went potty on the pier...lol. Silly boy.


That was his first step I would be happy,if he did it once. He will probably do it again. Some dogs take water naturally. My first dove off a 10ft embankment I didn't think he would do it but he did and he was off to the races.



> Has anyone had any trouble with ear infections due to swimming?


Yes, My dogs haven't but I am careful about them swimming in poor water. My daughter's lab gets it. I use ear drops from the vet. None of my Goldens fortunately ever had a problem with ear infections. I also rinse them down after water work. Some of the Labs we train with get treated after every water session. I think some dogs are more prone than others.



> And you likely have a zap collar on them for training instead of a leash


I train with a leash to teach commands to a point where they will comply off leash before I use the "zap collar"


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

My Dexy went swimming at 14 weeks, I am sure it would have been earlier, but he was born in January. Selli, who was born in July was introduced to a pond at seven weeks and was swimming well by eight weeks. I certainly would not worry about the water temperature, if it is 88 degrees outside, I am sure 75 degree water feels good.

One technique to try is to toss a small biscuit type treat into the water. First throw it where he doesn't have to swim and then further out where he does have to swim. Old Mother Hubbard puppy bones which are less than an inch are good for this. Having a swimming dog buddy is also a great help, but I wouldn't worry, I am sure he will quickly get the swimming thing down.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I train with a leash to teach commands to a point where they will comply off leash before I use the "zap collar"


But do they comply reliably between 5 and 7 months? Or is that the point you are starting zap collar training? Are you able to get that 100% reliability off leash with a young pup? 

^ And I do not mean this in a obnoxious way or trying to argue. I am curious about other people's methods of training a young dog. Especially with hunt people who likely do have to tread that line between having a responsive dog with a solid come and a dog who is bold enough to go way out and work independant of the owner, as you mentioned in another thread. 

Or are you just putting your young dogs in controlled situations? 

And what do you consider to be a controlled situation? 

@ear infections - I think it depends on the dogs. Jacks has never had an ear infection after swimming (he did have random ear infections before, but I got him on a corn free kibble and that made a difference). My previous guy always came down with gooey ears after swimming or baths if I didn't proactively clean them out and treat them for the next couple days after. 

Definitely rinse them off after swimming. That will cut down on any skin issues like hot spots that might happen.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Regarding ear infections, I do think it depends on the water your dog swims in and genetics. It sounds like the bottom of the river where you are swimming is nice and hard (not mucky), that is good. I try to keep my pups out of mucky water. If your pup has thick ear flaps and lots of hair around the ears, he may be more prone to ear infections. If this is so, try keeping the hair around his ears short and a vet once told me to flip the ear flaps up when you pup is laying on his side to help air out the ears.


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## Sweet Summer Time (Nov 24, 2010)

We were not able to get Summer in water here until about 3 months ago--- to cold! She always liked splashing around in water and would go out in water up to her chest, it wasnt until just this past couple of weeks she actually starting swimming! (She will be 10 months old tomorrow) We just kept taking her to water areas and kinda let her go out on her own.....throwing the ball or toy a little farther...it actually took my husband to get in the water and then she followed. Now she goes right out by herself! Give it time, I'm sure it will come like with us! Good luck!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> But do they comply reliably between 5 and 7 months? Or is that the point you are starting zap collar training? Are you able to get that 100% reliability off leash with a young pup?


Radar would sit on whistle and recall at 100+ yards reliably at about 4 months before I put an "used" Ecollar on him. I do not "enforce" with an ecollar until after their adult teeth are in. Even then not until I am sure he is ready for "collar conditioning". They wear the collar but I don't "zap" them. I don't teach with the collar it is used to correct willful disobedience to known commands.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Radarsdad said:


> Radar would sit on whistle and recall at 100+ yards reliably at about 4 months before I put an Ecollar on him. I do not "enforce with an ecollar until after their adult teeth are in. Even then not until I am sure he is ready.


OMG. I think at 4 months I was blessed if Jacks came running across 100 feet past all other distractions. :doh: And he was my most attentive and responsive golden. I was heeling him off-leash and working just about everything off leash in controlled environments by the time he was starting puppy class, but he didn't earn his off leash walk and off leash swim ticket until this spring. :

My golden with elbow dysplasia was gimpy most of his life, but still could fly like the wind and never be caught until he was good and ready to be - this after he was 5 months or so. He was the golden who took off running when I mindlessly let him off leash during a swimming trip.

With these dogs, you understand now why I'm so neurotic about that leash staying on until the dog can tune out any distractions.


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## jpajinag (Nov 25, 2010)

Moose was 4 months old his first time swimming. We are in Alaska and this was when the lakes had finally melted enough for a safe swim. His first time in he went charging right in after a stick but was soon done after another dog joined in the fun and he realized she would go get the stick for him. He has been getting more and more enthusiastic about swimming as the weeks have gone by. He has not had any ear infections but he does tend to have "dirty" ears. I have found the water rinses his ears and leaves them healthier. I have decided to dry them and use ear drying powder anyways though just to be safe. Good luck with the swimming 

Oh and as a side note, the day his swimming really took off my 2 yr old threw his apple in the water. Moose absolutely LOVES apples and this was all the incentive he needed.


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## Mavrk (Mar 11, 2011)

RetrieverRab said:


> Has anyone had any trouble with ear infections due to swimming? Rab went back to the vet today for the second ear infection. Vet seems to think that is due to swimming and the water thats getting in there. I've been using ear cleaning solution and drying out as best as I can but apparently its not enough?? Today he shaved some excess hair from under his ear around the canal to help with ventalation as well as moist hair under the ear. Any thoughts would be appreciated, thanks!


What ear cleaner are you using? Are you using one from your vet? The one I got from them does a good job at drying the ear as well. Most of the store bought ones are not nearly as good at drying. I don't have the bottle in front of me, but looking online I believe we use GlenHaven C1/0 Medically Formulated Ear Cleaner.


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## dexter0125 (Mar 20, 2011)

I'll have to try the treat. My mom mentioned it, but I didn't want it getting soggy. Lol. So I'll just hold it and tempt him


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

My standard line... Doritos float 

Daisy's always been very cautious with water. She's not a splasher or a jumper, but she will swim if she's motivated. Once I threw a fish I'd caught back into the river ... BIG mistake! She went clean out to the middle of the river, IN the current, after that **** fish LOL I don't do that anymore.

No matter how much I coaxed or encouraged her to swim though, she didn't really swim until she was about 1-1/2 years. She spotted an injured duck in the middle of a pond and away she went. On the one hand I was so excited to see her swimming, on the other hand I was really worried about the duck! The duck got away, and Daisy's been swimming ever since. If she's motivated! 

Like I said ... Doritos float


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## oakleysmommy (Feb 20, 2011)

we have a pool and i started Oakley at about 12 weeks, he is now 17 weeks today and loves the pool, lakes etc. jumps right in..go slowly with him. Hold him in the water for the first few times. He will grow to enjoy it_


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## Limerick Main (Sep 17, 2010)

I started Limerick at a local lake about a month and a half ago. I threw a ball out about 20 feet and let him decide how to go get it or if he wanted to. Once the water got past his chest, he had about 10 seconds of hesitation while he figured it out, and away he went. (It is now very difficult to get him out of the water. He wants to swim forever!) The first two times I took him, I had him on a 50 foot nylon lead, in case he decided to go out after a duck or in case he got into trouble. Of course, I was ready to run in after him, but I figured better safe than sorry. Now he goes in without a lead on, and he's a very strong swimmer. He has gone after ducks, (why won't they stay and play with me, Dad?) but fortunately they fly away before he gets to them. Next time he goes out, I have a bumper for him. The only thing I need to do is find a dock for him to jump off of when he's done growing so that we can see if he has dock dogs in his future.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A lot of pups are hesitant about water until the adult coat comes in. I'm not sure if that timing is coincidence or because they understand on some level that they are not equipped for cool water. They need to do a lot of splashing and wading before they feel comfortable going past where they can touch easily.

It also helps to have an older dog happily swimming and retrieving while the youngster is getting used to things. It increases the motivation to go out and grab the object. If I didn't have another dog, I'd go in myself. Don't call the pup, though. Just have fun and play around and let him come to you. Pushing him with a command isn't much different than pushing him with your hand. It might increase anxiety. The pup has to choose.

I do try to have really solid obedience, particularly recall, by 5 months. Jax was still blowing the occasional command in the face of serious distractions at that point, but he was pretty good. He was almost four months when I got him, so that wasn't bad for only having had him a month myself. He was very hesitant about water initially, but got over it after about 3 or 4 sessions in which Comet retrieved and he splashed around. He started lying in wait for Comet, then lunging past his depth and backtracking, then finally swimming.

Be patient. If he's got the inherited love of water, it'll come when he's ready.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Jo Ellen said:


> My standard line... Doritos float
> 
> Daisy's always been very cautious with water. She's not a splasher or a jumper, but she will swim if she's motivated. Once I threw a fish I'd caught back into the river ... BIG mistake! She went clean out to the middle of the river, IN the current, after that **** fish LOL I don't do that anymore.
> 
> ...


I have never tried a Dorito , but dorito does mean "of Gold". I usually carry my floaty treats in my pocket and a Dorito would get crushed.

Don't worry about the treats getting soggy, if its a good floaty treat it will float seemingly forever.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> Once I threw a fish I'd caught back into the river ... BIG mistake! She went clean out to the middle of the river, IN the current, after that **** fish LOL I don't do that anymore.


I did that once also and then thought "Well dummy he figured out that is food and you wanted it,it looks chaseable and *you threw it* and you've been teaching him retrieve thrown objects. Duhhhhhhhh"
I now practice a different "catch and release"
I taught my mothers GSD to retrieve and introduced her to water. Mother called me one day after I kept her and complained Anna wouldn't get out of her Hot Tub:doh::doh::doh::doh:
When she picks up limbs and debris out of her yard and throws them in the woods next to her house. Anna goes and gets em' and brings em' back. Funny to watch 
Mother however is not all that amused.:uhoh::uhoh:


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## Blondie (Oct 10, 2009)

Maggie was 7 months old when she was introduced to the water. She saw the water and ran right in, her very first time. No forcing, no cohercing was needed. Some may just be more natural than others. Is the river you live on loud at all, like with sounds of rushing water? That could be what is causing the fearful behavior. With a river and at such a young age, I think a life vest might help ensure feelings of safety and security. Until the dog is older and more mature. I think of the river scene in "Homeward Bound." Just a thougt.


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## Mavrk (Mar 11, 2011)

Radarsdad said:


> I did that once also and then thought "Well dummy he figured out that is food and you wanted it,it looks chaseable and *you threw it* and you've been teaching him retrieve thrown objects. Duhhhhhhhh"
> I now practice a different "catch and release"
> I taught my mothers GSD to retrieve and introduced her to water. Mother called me one day after I kept her and complained Anna wouldn't get out of her Hot Tub:doh::doh::doh::doh:
> When she picks up limbs and debris out of her yard and throws them in the woods next to her house. Anna goes and gets em' and brings em' back. Funny to watch
> Mother however is not all that amused.:uhoh::uhoh:


Mother may not be amused, but I laughed when I read this.


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## Sienna's Mom (Oct 23, 2007)

Blondie said:


> Maggie was 7 months old when she was introduced to the water. She saw the water and ran right in, her very first time. No forcing, no cohercing was needed. Some may just be more natural than others. Is the river you live on loud at all, like with sounds of rushing water? That could be what is causing the fearful behavior. With a river and at such a young age, I think a life vest might help ensure feelings of safety and security. Until the dog is older and more mature. I think of the river scene in "Homeward Bound." Just a thougt.


I second the idea of a life vest, especially if you are near fast moving deep water.
I had a kiddie pool for Sienna when she was a puppy, which she adored, but didn't really have the opportunity to introduce her to swimming until she was much older. We tried one dock diving thing, the guy actually picked her up and put her in and she paddled around, but wanted out. Then we found some dog parks in Seattle where she would go in after her beloved tennis balls... now she is a divining rod in finding water, I have to make sure she doesn't go off a high bank to get to it.


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## dexter0125 (Mar 20, 2011)

I actually live on a reservoir. There is no running or rushing water, so it's not loud unless a boat or something comes by. Even then, he's not scared because he loves boats  The river runs through the reservoir, but it's not fast. You can't even tell it's moving, tbh.

I think we're about to go try again now


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## dexter0125 (Mar 20, 2011)

WELL!

We did go swimming. I took treats out with me, and it was even more of a struggle to get him in the water. LOL. So stubborn. Anywho..I got him in the water and let him stand where he likes to stand, I guess it's where he feels safe. I put a treat at the top of the steps - which he has to swim to..and I swam away from him. The next thing I know, here he comes right behind me! He was swimming in little circles and went back to the steps and ate his treat. I swam over with him and said "let's go" and swam away and he followed me again 

He won't get in by himself, but he'll get out by himself. He wants to jump off the pier SO bad he doesn't know what to do. lol. I want him to, too..but I'm more scared than he is, I think. Lol. We made excellent progress today. Maybe tomorrow he'll turn into a dock dog! Hahaha


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## chuckd123 (Apr 5, 2011)

I would say a leash all depends on the dog and the area you are placing her to swim. Sometimes we are in shallow water where she can swim/run within a couple feet so a leash is well used there to keep her from exploring areas or people we don't like. 

Our dog Alice walked in the water on her own the first time and swam right to the boat with us there to get her at the end. Since then, she'll almost jump out of the boat when it's running to go for it, another reason a leash is a good thing. 

I would say if you're having trouble, a harness with a leash and walking them in the water right next to you is what helped us a little bit, using the beach for example. Alice is comfortable going into deeper water if I'm right at the end of the leash or right next to her.


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## spruce (Mar 13, 2008)

find a friendly lab to show him the fun of swimming


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

spruce said:


> find a friendly lab to show him the fun of swimming


Make sure it's one that *WILL SWIM*


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Radarsdad said:


> You win,I am not going argue further. The point I am not considering is that I train my dogs to reliable with or without a lead (preferably without) and feel comfortable taking them pretty much anywhere without a lead. But I will not introduce my dogs to water with a lead on.
> 
> Anyway hope you have a wonderful week.


I have to agree with this. Swimming is natural for most goldens, and I would not train it with a leash. Ours hike off leash from the getgo, and in 9 goldens we have not owned one who could not be trusted to swim and hike off lead. Building that off leash recall is up there with potty training as the first priority for me. 

To the OP, a friendly older dog or two who love to swim can be fantastic role models. It is wonderful if a puppy wants to swim at 8 weeks, and fine too if they want to wade and play until they are ready. Since our older dogs swim, the pups tend to plop right in early. Lush is 19 weeks and she jumped off the dock for the first time yesterday, and she has been swimming since 12 weeks. This is bc the older dogs do. Keep the pressure off your pup, and soon his instincts will tell him to swim.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Building that off leash recall is up there with potty training as the first priority for me.


I agree<:

But not outside in a wide open area with lots of extreme distrations with a young dog who is starting to outgrow the puppy-clinginess. I love my dogs too much to take stupid risks with them. 

As I've said in other posts etc, off leash work was something we worked on right from the beginning. But the difference was I only did it in a controlled area (home, yard, class).

The other thing I worked on right from the beginning was on leash walking.  I wanted my dog to be able to walk on a regular collar, particularly since I was not allowed to use a training collar until we got to the novice round in our training. Our trainers before novice were emphatic about only using buckle collars in class. So hikes were on leash. Swimming was on leash. 

And my dog never got tangled in his leash or drowned. And he has been a perfect walking companion all his life because he learned how to walk _on leash_ at my side LONG before I started any hikes off leash. *laughs* I did not have any of the pulling problems that we did with our previous goldens, and I do credit a lot of the walk on leash training that I started very early. 

And it might not be clear from the pics I took a couple weeks ago (my sister had the zoom on the whole time), but my dog loves swimming and can be trusted to go all paddling loch ness monster across any lake. And he will if not called back when he gets carried away. So being kept on leash until he was 100% solid (not mostly, completely) on his comes did not turn him into a clingy landlubber. It built up his obedience. Just saying.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> But not outside in a wide open area with lots of extreme distrations with a young dog who is starting to outgrow the puppy-clinginess. I love my dogs too much to take stupid risks with them


You probably didn't mean to characterize what LJilly does (and what I do too, incidentally) as stupid, but you just did.

I drill recall every day when a pup is young so that by the time the clinginess wears off, the recall is already quite strong and reliable. The same way that you drill leash skills, I drill recall skills (and lots of leashwork too, of course, since that's an important lifelong skill too).

With Jax, it was a little different, since I didn't get him until he was 16 weeks old or so, but with other pups, I've had them trained strong recall by that age. It's a strength of recall I wouldn't test near a busy road, but it's more than strong enough to get the pup to turn around when he's swimming or to get him to come back on a trail.

I do not recommend that you test a young puppy's recall in a situation where a blown call might result in injury, especially if you lack the skill or the patience to build and reinforce that command at such an early age. But I do take issue with the characterization that it's a "stupid risk" to let a young dog off a leash in a field or a wood when you've been rigorously and successfully training his recall skill from eight weeks (or even earlier, if your breeder is the proactive type).


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## Huggenkiss (Nov 3, 2009)

I'm going to go way back to the original question 

Sophie was 52 days old (7.5 weeks) the first time she went swimming! My dad had picked her up from the breeder and stopped by his house before he was going to make the 6 hour drive to deliver her to me. He put Sophie in the backyard and she walked right up to the Koi pond and jumped/slid/fell in and started swimming around! He hadn't even been home with her for 5 minutes!!! He called me laughing and laughing saying I was going to have my hands full with a curious little pup who will get into everything. 

She was actually a very well behaved puppy and LOVED the water. If there was enough water to make a little splash she was in it. On the way home from work 4 or 5 days a week we'd stop at the lake for some retrieving too. She was a water dog!

Glad your pup is starting to swim. One day he might jump off that dock and then you'll never be able to stop him! Have fun!!!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I drill recall every day when a pup is young so that by the time the clinginess wears off, the recall is already quite strong and reliable. The same way that you drill leash skills, I drill recall skills (and lots of leashwork too, of course, since that's an important lifelong skill too).


Actually... 

I did lots of come training. Both on leash and off. With and without food. So yes, my young dog COULD come fairly reliably. 

And I did not worry too much on our property which as I've said in the past has no fencing of any kind. My guy dragged a leash behind him, but he could be trusted to run loose and play in our yard without running down to the main road. He stayed close to his brothers and had a 100% come rate when I called him. That's because - my home was a controlled environment where we had done a LOT of our training from early on.

But taking that dog off leash in an uncontrolled environment is a stupid risk if you do not feel 100% certain that your dog is going to stay close by instead of chasing birds or rabbits or any other amount of toys he spots in the woods. 

I felt that with my dog he was more likely to pick up very bad habits (including not walking at my side) and I knew that I had a normal high energy golden who would tune me out if whatever he was chasing trumped any training.

It's great if you can take your dog off leash and show off his training, but it's not worth it if it will either mess up your training or get your dog hurt. In Jacks case, I was patient enough to wait until he was mature enough and solid enough in his training for me to start unsnapping the leash. Complete trust makes all that waiting and training worthwhile.

ETA - I misread your comment a little, I think... as far as training in fields and lakes or whatever, definitely that will get you to that 100% reliability point much sooner than 2 or 3 years old. While I did mini training sessions at different points of our hikes, my focus when hiking was mainly having a pleasant walk and enjoying his company - if I were constantly training him to stay in my space while off leash and constantly keeping one step ahead of him and spotting distractions before he did - argh - that would have driven me nutso.  

*Anyway*. :S

@early introduction - I'm completely envious of all of you who could get your dogs into lakes so early in life. My guy was a winter pup and so I had to wait a few months before he got his first dip. I had to settle with plopping him in the bathtub as often as possible.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> But taking that dog off leash in an uncontrolled environment is a stupid risk if you do not feel 100% certain that your dog is going to stay close by instead of chasing birds or rabbits or any other amount of toys he spots in the woods.


There's that word again. I think 100% reliable is a little much to ask before your dog goes off leash someplace cool. One could argue that no dog is truly 100% reliable ever.

I'm not sure how you define "close by," but I've found that Goldens like to know they're in contact with the group. So even when they run out ahead, they like to come back and check in, and recall can be strongly reinforced by shaping that habit (come all the way too me for a reward instead of just getting line-of-sight).

You're welcome to be extra conservative with your dogs if that makes you comfortable, but don't call other responsible owners' choices stupid risks without understanding those choices fully. You say Jacks got his off leash ticket this spring? How old is he?


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> But taking that dog off leash in an uncontrolled environment is a stupid risk if you do not feel 100% certain that your dog is going to stay close by instead of chasing birds or rabbits or any other amount of toys he spots in the woods.


Apparently she did mean we're stupid.

[quoteETA - I misread your comment a little, I think... as far as training in fields and lakes or whatever, definitely that will get you to that 100% reliability point much sooner than 2 or 3 years old. While I did mini training sessions at different points of our hikes, my focus when hiking was mainly having a pleasant walk and enjoying his company - if I were constantly training him to stay in my space while off leash and constantly keeping one step ahead of him and spotting distractions before he did - argh - that would have driven me nutso. 
][/quote]


> normal high energy golden who would tune me out


That indicates to me you have low standard in your training. And if didn't trust my training and my dog I would be cautious also.




> It's great if you can take your dog off leash and show off his training


*I don't show off for anybody* and don't really care what the general public's opinion of what I am doing with my dog. If I have my dog out, it is for purpose for me and him alone and if I find a teachable moment I will use it. A well trained dog is a happy dog and you don't have worry about "nagging" him all the time and enjoy your walk.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> One could argue that no dog is truly 100% reliable ever.


Actually that is incorrect. Because while a dog will still have distractions, that training is very firmly in place and the dog is mature to handle them properly.



> I'm not sure how you define "close by,"


At my side. I want my dog under complete control all the time. And until he learns to stay close to my side without me having to keep reminding him (nagging), that leash is going to stay on. 



> You say Jacks got his off leash ticket this spring? How old is he?


He just turned 3. 

ETA - I'm reading your comment and Radar's Dad's comment and I thought I should emphasize that I'm not calling you names or judging you. But I think you both have a lot more experience training your dogs than most people do. 

I'm not an arrogant enough person to declare that I know everything infinite about training and I've said before that with every dog I own, I learn more than I ever did about doing things right the first time. I'm sure by the time I have the next dog, I might be able to graduate my dog to offleash hikes and swims by the time he's two. But the fact of the matter is you guys are talking to people who probably aren't as perfect as you apparently are. That's where I'm all for advising people to be very careful.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> aren't as perfect as you apparently are.


Anybody that thinks they are "*PERFECT*" needs to quit and especially field trainers will agree. I try to learn every day and especially from this new pup!!!!



> And until he learns to stay close to my side without me having to keep reminding him (nagging)


I would invite you to *TEACH* him to stay close, and don't nag him, enforce your command and you won't have to nag. 



> *that training is very firmly in place* and the dog is mature to handle them properly.


If the training is there the maturity is not that much of an issue except in young puppies.
*They only know what you teach them*


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> Actually that is incorrect. Because while a dog will still have distractions, that training is very firmly in place and the dog is mature to handle them properly.


You're calling me incorrect over a semantic issue. Can you really say that a dog will fully execute a recall from beginning to end with one command, no matter what else is going on? What if he's five feet from a bitch in heat and twenty feet from you? Does "100%" mean 100% response to a single command in the face of 100% of potential distractions? Are any of us really there?

If by "100%," you mean the dog hasn't blown a command in a long time, or that through multiple commands you've eventually gotten him back 100% of the times you've tried, then sure. Many dogs are 100% by that measure. I've taken to saying "99%" with my guys, just because I believe that there could be a distraction or situation that would lead to a blown command.



Megora said:


> He just turned 3.


I wouldn't want to wait that long to let me dogs off leash on a hike or in the woods. Jax had a 4,000 foot summit (that's high for New England) under his belt before he was a year old. I think sufficiently reliable obedience can be trained long before that.



Megora said:


> ETA - I'm reading your comment and Radar's Dad's comment and I thought I should emphasize that I'm not calling you names or judging you. But I think you both have a lot more experience training your dogs than most people do.


You're calling what we do a "stupid risk," so it definitely comes off as rather insulting. I'm getting the sense that you meant it would have been a stupid risk for you and your dog, based on the reliability of his training at the time, not that you meant it was a stupid risk for us. Still, if you read what you actually said, it sounds like you're calling us stupid.



Megora said:


> I'm not an arrogant enough person to declare that I know everything infinite about training and I've said before that with every dog I own, I learn more than I ever did about doing things right the first time. I'm sure by the time I have the next dog, I might be able to graduate my dog to offleash hikes and swims by the time he's two. But the fact of the matter is you guys are talking to people who probably aren't as perfect as you apparently are. That's where I'm all for advising people to be very careful.


C'mon, "perfect as you apparently are"? Nobody said or implied that they were an perfect trainer or somehow super advanced compared to the peons. Getting a dog recall-reliable takes patience, creativity, and good timing with rewards. It doesn't take any special genius. 

Advise people to be careful. That's great. Don't call me a name in the process, and don't imply that I'm lording my abilities over anybody else, because I'm not.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> If the training is there the maturity is not that much of an issue except in young puppies.


To a certain extent, I agree with this statement. But it depends on when and where and how much you throw at your dog. And the main purpose of that dog. If you want a companion dog who stays at your side without the use of food or harsh methods, then you give that dog time to mature without permitting bad habits. I don't see a reason to rush to off leash if that foundation and trust isn't there. If you rush, you have to ask yourself why you are in a hurry.  

@Tippy - there is no reason to hyperventilate. I was not calling you names or even intending any offense to you or anyone else. My comments are not intended as an attack - EVER. More often than not, it's more about offering a balance or a different opinion. If you feel attacked, take a deep breath, wave your arms around to clear the air around you, and figure out that people aren't out to get you.  



> You're calling me incorrect over a semantic issue. *Can you really say that a dog will fully execute a recall from beginning to end with one command, no matter what else is going on?* What if he's five feet from a bitch in heat and twenty feet from you? Does "100%" mean 100% response to a single command in the face of 100% of potential distractions? Are any of us really there?


YES. 

My guy has trained off-leash around female dogs in heat. He's not going to go after them. And if he so much as sniffs a female in heat, he will get a verbal correction from me and immediately respond. 

100% means I trust my dog is not going to go running off and getting into trouble. 100% means that I know that I can maintain control over my dog even if he's off leash.


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## GeorgiaOnMyMind (May 4, 2010)

I took our Golden down to the pond in our neighborhood when she was about 4 or 5 months old. She approached the water, splashed in it with her paw, went in...and swam. can't trust her around water. She's in it and staying in it!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

GeorgiaOnMyMind said:


> I took our Golden down to the pond in our neighborhood when she was about 4 or 5 months old. She approached the water, splashed in it with her paw, went in...and swam. can't trust her around water. She's in it and staying in it!


 

This reminded me of something that happened when I was hiking with Jacks recently. Off leash. We were on a trail that cut through a marsh. And this was the type of marsh that you'd expect toxic algae and giardia and whatver else to be.

You could see his head burning up with all that temptation. He did stay at my side though. 

When he was a young dog- that would have been way too much.  There were a few times I walked into class with a wet dog because he decided he had to drop down and wallow in the middle of the exercise field which always flooded when it rained.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> If you want a companion dog who stays at your side without the use of food or harsh methods,


You are exactly correct because you have an unreliable dog IMO and he/she should stay on leash at all times when outside a controlled area. Also in that case I would not bank on "maturity" Simply because the reward of the distraction will be greater than compliance with your command and or training.



> I don't see a reason to rush to off leash if that foundation and trust isn't there


Absolutely, you have nothing in place for unforeseen circumstances other than *he* is "choosing" stay at your side.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Radarsdad said:


> You are exactly correct because you have an unreliable dog IMO and he/she should stay on leash at all times when outside a controlled area. Also in that case I would not bank on "maturity" Simply because the reward of the distraction will be greater than compliance with your command and or training.
> 
> Absolutely, you have nothing in place for unforeseen circumstances other than *he* is "choosing" stay at your side.


Absolutely agree. 

I used the term "maturity" meaning that point when my dog is thinking twice before running after anything and everything or jumping into nasty water or what have you. Depending on the quality of training, that "maturity" will definitely happen sooner than 3 years. 

I was a better trainer with Jacks then I was with his brother, so he learned things much faster and earned my complete trust much sooner. A good example was he was doing an off-leash heel amid controlled distractions when he was a puppy. His brother did not go off leash in controlled situations until he was Jacks' age - and forget about off leash hikes! Danny did not "mature" until he was almost 5 years old. Even with bilateral elbow dysplasia he was a flighty flight risk who could somehow run like the wind.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> @Tippy - there is no reason to hyperventilate. I was not calling you names or even intending any offense to you or anyone else. My comments are not intended as an attack - EVER. More often than not, it's more about offering a balance or a different opinion. If you feel attacked, take a deep breath, wave your arms around to clear the air around you, and figure out that people aren't out to get you.


If you don't intend offense, then you really need to get a handle your tone. This paragraph is just as insulting, condescending, and passive aggressive as the previous comments I pointed out. I was trying to be nice about it the first two times, but jeez, when you tell somebody not to hyperventilate, can you not see how condescending that is? I'm happy to let it drop here, because as I said twice already, I doubt you really intend the amount of offense that you end up putting in your words, but the issue is your tone and the things you say, not my hypersensitivity.



Megora said:


> My guy has trained off-leash around female dogs in heat. He's not going to go after them. And if he so much as sniffs a female in heat, he will get a verbal correction from me and immediately respond.


I'd like to think that my dogs would do this, but as they are intact, there's no chance of their being allowed to sniff around a bitch in heat, so I can't test the theory.



Megora said:


> 100% means I trust my dog is not going to go running off and getting into trouble. 100% means that I know that I can maintain control over my dog even if he's off leash.


Then by your definition, my dogs are at 100% too, but I'm never going to bet their lives on it. I'm not as perfect as you apparently are.



(see how it comes off as rather passive aggressive?)


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I'd like to think that my dogs would do this, but as they are intact, there's no chance of their being allowed to sniff around a bitch in heat, so I can't test the theory.


My guy is intact.  



> If you don't intend offense, then you really need to get a handle your tone. This paragraph is just as insulting, condescending, and passive aggressive as the previous comments I pointed out. I was trying to be nice about it the first two times, but jeez. I'm happy to let it drop here, because as I said twice already, I doubt you really intend the amount of offense that you end up putting in your words, but the issue is your tone and the things you say, not my hypersensitivity.


I was grinning when I typed it. About the same way I grin when I'm poking at my sibs and friends and lightly telling them they have no reason to be upset or be super-analyzing everything. 

Tone is difficult to control on the internet.... unfortunately. I think that's why so many people end up having rage or sounding like they have rage on forums. I'd like to think that all of us are extremely nice people who would get along quite nicely. As we probably agree on more things than not. 



> Then by your definition, my dogs are at 100% too, but I'm never going to bet their lives on it. I'm not as perfect as you apparently are.


If you trust your dogs and have complete control over them as well as the wisdom to sort out their limits - then I imagine you are just as perfect as I am, _and reached that point sooner with your dogs than I did with mine_. Piffle.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> My guy is intact.


Hmm...then don't let him around bitches in heat. In all seriousness, the nicest dog in the world can and will lose his mind and do things he would do in no other context, including blowing you off, and including fighting other males who might be present. You probably know that, but for others reading the thread, you cannot underestimate what an intact boy will do in the presence of a heat. 



Megora said:


> I was grinning when I typed it. About the same way I grin when I'm poking at my sibs and friends and lightly telling them they have no reason to be upset or be super-analyzing everything.


That definitely got lost in translation, but I'm happy to know it was meant as good natured ribbing.



Megora said:


> Tone is difficult to control on the internet.... unfortunately. I think that's why so many people end up having rage or sounding like they have rage on forums. I'd like to think that all of us are extremely nice people who would get along quite nicely. As we probably agree on more things than not.
> 
> If you trust your dogs and have complete control over them as well as the wisdom to sort out their limits - then I imagine you are just as perfect as I am, _and reached that point sooner with your dogs than I did with mine_. Piffle.


Fair enough, and I bet we agree on lots and lots of stuff, including how fun it is to rib each other. I always thought you were a really nice person in all the other threads I've read, so "stupid risk" seemed out of character. Turns out it was!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> Hmm...then don't let him around bitches in heat. In all seriousness, the nicest dog in the world can and will lose his mind and do things he would do in no other context, including blowing you off, and including fighting other males who might be present. *You probably know that, but for others reading the thread, you cannot underestimate what an intact boy will do in the presence of a heat*.


^ No, I absolutely agree with this. As I have emphasized multiple times on this thread, my guy is not off leash around temptations unless I trust him and even then I keep him under control and am careful. 

He is able to work around females in heat - and it happens when you train at a club where there might be a lot of conformation type people. He can do sits/downs right next to a female in heat, for example - mainly because while I'm 10+ feet away I still keep his attention and do not permit him to sniff.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> ^ No, I absolutely agree with this. As I have emphasized multiple times on this thread, my guy is not off leash around temptations unless I trust him and even then I keep him under control and am careful.
> 
> He is able to work around females in heat - and it happens when you train at a club where there might be a lot of conformation type people. He can do sits/downs right next to a female in heat, for example - mainly because while I'm 10+ feet away I still keep his attention and do not permit him to sniff.


Really? Wow. I don't think I'd put my guys in that situation, just because I'd be afraid of how quickly they could get themselves in trouble.


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