# Totally Amateur Trained Dogs



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I have the same experience in the obedience trials. For one thing the trainers all know each other and the judges. The people that train together talk to each other but not so much to "outsiders" (people that train on their own and not with a club). It's all business and looking for perfection with the pros.

But you know... I went there to have a good time. Win or lose made no difference to me. While it was nice to talk to people (before they learned I wasn't part of a training club 1st day) but this was something I wanted to enjoy with my dog. We had a great time and my girl totally amazed me! She was the happiest dog there and we qualified all three days and achieved her 1st obedience title. 

So have a good time, the competition will help you know what you need to work on. All of those professionals had to start somewhere at some point in time. If you are having a great time with your pup and want to continue ... go for it! It's all about you, the dog and the experience.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I don't know. I know that derbies are no joke any longer. Particularly with the new derby championship. I remember someone comparing them to a JH and that made me laugh so hard. When I was hot and heavy with them with Proof there is NO WAY he would have been able to compete with the circuit down here if I didn't day train with my pro. Not because my dog isn't as capable as other dogs. Certainly not because of his marking capabilities. The reason we wouldn't have been able to compete is the water work. Water work has become so complicated in derbies that without the resources to train for this kind of water work proof wouldn't have been able to compete. I didn't have any amateurs here to train with and I certainly didn't have any water. Plus I just didn't know what I needed to know and I'm glad I had the opportunities that we had and I had a pro willing to take time to mentor me rather than just want to take over. 

Today's derby dogs have been bred so competitively that they are just really really naturally good. They all can mark pretty well and if they can't they are often sold to a hunt tester so that's a moot point in competitions. So it seems the only way to separate them is to make the tests more technical. The land series never really gave any dogs up but the water...you can really see the difference between an amateur trained dog and a pro trained dog on the water. (side note. I'm talking amateur trained like me not the experienced amateurs like you are or Connie Cleveland or Judy Rasmussen, ect.) Another bad thing that comes out of that is judges are amateurs. With all the pros training dogs you really have to find a good amateur judge that knows bird placement that tests marking not training. That is rare making the tests even harder as the amateurs try just do training set ups they see when they go train with their pro. That's where having a good amateur mentor comes into play. So if you want to actually win points you need to be prepared for a technical test and not just say, oh its a derby it only judges marking and style. 

It might not be fair but it is the way it is. I truly believe in my heart goldens are just as competitive as labs but for some reason golden owners are so into the "purely amateur trained" dogs that many goldens are just not trained to win field trials even though they have so much talent. For some reason amateurs also believe having a golden means training a different way which I find is complete junk. All dogs are different and they all need something different when they are trained. A lot of golden owners tend to think Pros would be harmful to their dogs. 
This goes into a whole different conversation about how goldens aren't meant to run field or that the reason we have little field stud dogs is because people like to breed only to an FC or whatever which is so narrow, particularly because there are hardly any goldens that can keep up with the pro trained labs. Lab people are so different in their thinking I can't get over it.


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## Edward Lee Nelson (Jan 2, 2017)

MOP,
I agree that Derby's have gotten a lot tougher over the years. I don't mind the competition at all. I actually love it. The water is the killer, not so much a Golden can't do the work its the fact that most Amateurs don't have access to FT grounds and the tests as you say have become so technical. I honestly don't like that. I believe the Derby is the ONLY stake that you can judge on natural ability in a dogs life. I had this discussion with an older judge who judged a National in the 90's that I train on his property 3-4 times a week. The Derby he judged in the Spring was a doozy but a marking Derby. The winners and placements were clear cut. I do think Goldens can be as competitive as Labs also but its a lot of different reasons they aren't which is a another topic. I believe Goldens aren't any different in that the way they are supposed to be trained, my last competitive Golden did have a fire breathing Lab mentality where my current puppy needs to understand the concept and think more before it sets in, but the training isnt different it, just how you do it.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

puddles everywhere said:


> I have the same experience in the obedience trials. For one thing the trainers all know each other and the judges. The people that train together talk to each other but not so much to "outsiders" (people that train on their own and not with a club). It's all business and looking for perfection with the pros.
> 
> But you know... I went there to have a good time. Win or lose made no difference to me. While it was nice to talk to people (before they learned I wasn't part of a training club 1st day) but this was something I wanted to enjoy with my dog. We had a great time and my girl totally amazed me! She was the happiest dog there and we qualified all three days and achieved her 1st obedience title.
> 
> So have a good time, the competition will help you know what you need to work on. All of those professionals had to start somewhere at some point in time. If you are having a great time with your pup and want to continue ... go for it! It's all about you, the dog and the experience.



Interesting observation. I don't belong to any obedience clubs either. I steward for them, but I don't join them so I don't get bogged down in the politics. Normally at outdoor obedience trials, if I'm not stewarding, I set up my chair and soft sided crate, far away from anyone else. I want to relax and not hear the chatter and conversations. I'm there to be the best handler I can be for my dog. All that banter can be distracting and fill my head. Not being a part of an obedience club can be a bonus sometimes!


As for derbies being full of pro trained dogs, have you been to a master hunt test lately?


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Yes, if there is a really really nice marking test then a lot of the times you see a mix of young amateurs and pros in the placements and if its really a technical test it might only be pros that place. I prefer to run my own dog unless I can't. I couldn't imagine being there and watching someone else run my dog, I'm too much of a control freak. 

There were times that I truly felt like the judges were judging marking and style. There were other times where I knew the judge was literally setting up the training tests the pro had put on that week. In fact, there was a derby once that the amateur was judging the pro that had trained his dog. He threw the same tests he had seen all week in training and the pro was just hitting them hard. Unfortunately the amateur forgot and threw the bird the opposite direction and all the dogs had to be picked up. I heard him tell his pro how sorry he was. Wow! Worked for us, though, lol. 

Then you have judges that try to TRICK pro dogs by throwing contrary birds on water. yeah. that sure judges marking *eye roll*
They think that all pro dogs will keep swimming to the end of the pond instead of marking the bird. Lots of crazy ideas for derbies for sure. 

It is a rat race but I also enjoy the competition even if I prefer the training part more. Placing or even jamming a really hard marking test is so rewarding, especially for me with a golden. I remember once, early on, a judge that was trying to be nice said, you really should go to other locations to run and get away from this area so your dog will place. Boy that guy was trying to be nice but that made me want even more to beat all these "harder" dogs! So I get you!


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Alaska exactly! It's too bad really... it doesn't encourage people to get involved in the sport. Taking classes or having a mentor instruct you is always a good thing but not every place has a training facility available. 

I could be wrong as I know nothing about hunting derbys but I'm guessing there is instinct on the dogs part for the job at hand and most of the learning is for the handler to know the rules. So go to AKC, read the rules. Go to the derby and watch & learn. What's the worst that can happen? Each time you try and fail you have learned something new. Bad idea??


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Puddles dogs in a field derby are under 2 and are supposed to be judged on their natural marking abilities and how stylish they are. That means how much drive and desire and what I call "flash" they have. A dog that just kind of mosies on out there isn't considered stylish. Sounds pretty black and white, right? 

What Lee and I are talking about is how far away derbies have gotten from that, mainly to separate pro dogs that are just so well trained. Trained being the key word here because honestly to test marking you shouldn't have to train a dog that much. 

I have run a derby with a mark over 500 yards. It is really really hard to train for things like that if you don't have proper grounds. It can be disheartening to say the least when you've read the rules, trained in your small pond and field and show up to a mega trial. I have seen dogs cower and not leave the line when they see the set up at a trial. It is insane sometimes. I do not have money to blow. I can't sign up and spend 200 dollars to run a derby just to learn and have fun. That's me, personally, though. money is ALWAYS in the back of my mind when I enter a dog in a trial. That part makes it not fun.


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

I don't compete in field events, but have done obedience. I remember being asked by the judge at my first trial with April (which she won the class with a score of 195!) who my trainer was and the judge being shocked that I did it on my own. Now I used to show my bridge girl Autumn in 4-H (which is basically the same as AKC, except there are several very basic beginner levels before you get to novice, open and utility) and the obedience club near us used to let the 4-Hers use their facility once a week to train/practice. (At first this was with a volunteer trainer from the club, but eventually no one wanted to volunteer, but they still let us use the facility, so some of us "older" 4-H kids who had shown successfully did the instructing and helped the younger kids.) So I wasn't entirely unaware of what was expected at an obedience trail. Several people who had been watching the obedience runs at all 3 trial we competed in for our CD title also asked who we trained with, and they were all also shocked that I did it on my own. Then I was shocked that so many people just hire trainers! I'd much rather spend that time on my dog and build our bond. Incidentally, April scored a consistent 195 at all 3 trials for her CD, but even if she hadn't done well, I wouldn't have wanted to trade the experience of working with my own dog myself for anything! I'm not saying I wouldn't have sought help or advice from others, I just wouldn't have wanted to hand my dog off to a trainer to let them do all the work for me. I'm discovering that in any sport in the dog world, trainers or handlers are the thing, just makes no sense to my mind, as I like that feeling of satisfaction when you and your dog figure it out together without somebody else doing all the work for you! I'm in horses too and its the same thing there! Everybody has trainers, nobody does it themselves! I suppose if winning at all costs is all you're concerned with, then hire a trainer. (Or if you have a lot of dogs-or kids, or whatever-and not enough time, I could see hiring somebody.) But if bonding with your dog/horse is more important, do it yourself-seek advice from trainers or handlers and let them come watch you work and critique you or show you stuff, but if you want that bond, do it yourself! Anyway, this got a bit long, but that's my thoughts.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I had no idea the derbys were so intense. Thanks for the insight. I agree and always recommend people train their own dogs as it is a very bonding experience. It's also very rewarding to learn to work as a team and watch your dog achieve and have a good time doing it. 

As far as the OP... read up, watch some youtube videos to know what your role is and give it your best shot since you are already signed up. If you and your dog aren't having fun don't do it, just watch and learn. Decide if this is something you want to continue to train and try again. But as you can see my approach is not to achieve the highest score but to participate in the event and enjoy my dog. 

I love learning new things and the challenge of training my dog to compete. I don't have the cash to use shows as a learning tool either but if the money has already been spent I see no reason not to make the best of the experience and learn from it. Good luck!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Edward Lee Nelson said:


> Is the totally Amateur trained dog not specifically Golden's a thing of the past for running trials? This is not a knock on the pro trained dog as my last Golden was 1/2 and 1/2. The Derby I am running next week has 26 dogs entered and 24 are pro trained. It really doesn't matter to me because I love the competition and running trials, especially with a Golden! I really hadn't ever looked at the entries but I was bored the other day and was shocked at the out come.


I said it before and will say again. I love the sport and love the adrenaline during tests/trials. But any accomplishment will mean much more when we do it together than when a pro does the work for me. I do train with some pros and people who have or had their dogs with pros. They are nice and they also share what they learned while training with the pros. But I also train with pure amateurs who have trained and handled over the years their own dogs to FC AFC titles and while some felt years behind the pro trained dogs. And they are lab people; not golden people. It is a lot to learn and the trials have changed very much over the years. The Amateur will always be several years behind the pro. Due to work, due to access to training properties, due to weather (most pros have the capability to go North in the summer and South in the winter), due to family. None of them are excuses, they are simple facts of life. And where ever the journey with my dogs takes me I will be happy. 

There was a similar discussion on an FB blog. Some said you cannot even enter a MH if your dog is not pro trained. I disagree. I had my goal with Rose for SH and here we were last year running MH tests and doing pretty good. The cancer set us back in training all dogs but we are still training and will be back in the tests. While it is not as much as the FTs one time I looked at an MH and there were 70% of the dogs entered all pro trained and/or pro handled.


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## Edward Lee Nelson (Jan 2, 2017)

Puddles, Thanks a lot, I am fine, I have run a lot of Derby's in the past. I started in the goofy FT sport when I was 10. I am 54 now  Thanks again, I do appreciate it!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

MOP,
I feel your pain. I only entered a couple of qualifying field trials this year. You just run out of money some times. I like to enter a variety of field events and don't stick to just field trials or hunt tests. Then there's this whole husband thing, you know that person you live with that wonders what the heck you see in all this dog stuff? Sometimes they get it in their head, that you need to spend time with them and maybe do something that isn't dog related. 



Here's a first series qualifying test dog this summer that Riot ran.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Totally Amateur Trained. 
I have always wondered about this. Winter was trained and run by me through Master but I had a Pro trainer that I day trained with maybe 6 months of the year and he was on call for problems year around. Amateur Trained? 
I have friends that have had their dog Pro trained to a certain point and then they took over. That is not an easy road either.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Edward Lee Nelson said:


> Is the totally Amateur trained dog not specifically Golden's a thing of the past for running trials?


NO!

[ I suspect that you knew I'd say that!  ]


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## Edward Lee Nelson (Jan 2, 2017)

Yes, FT Goldens I knew you would say that  I was just shocked that the first Derby we are running on Sat. we are the only team that is totally Amateur trained and in the 2nd Derby the following week there is only two Amateur trained dogs counting us. I always welcome the challenge I was also shocked how many young dogs are double staked this week and triple staked the following week. I feel its to much for a young dog. We are single and single. Just my opinion though.


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