# Do dogs know the difference between right and wrong?



## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

And do dogs remember something they're done that they know is wrong?

We've all had our run in with dogs that have chewed things up that they shouldn't have. They been corrected "in the act" maybe more than once. And after the second or third time they know they shouldn't be chewing on something which they've been corrected for - yet some dogs continue to do just that.

So here's the scenario - you come home and find a book on the floor which has been chewed by your little angle. The dog has been corrected previously for chewing on the same book more than once. You walk in on him and there's the book on the floor again and it's obvious that it's been chewed on but the dog is not chewing on it at the moment you walk in. And what do you get from the dog...

*"THE LOOK"* ...we've all seen the look that has got guilt written all over it - it sure seems that he knows he's done something WRONG even though at the moment he's away from the book. Of course you don't scold or correct him because he's not in the act of doing the wrong behavior. But don't you think he knows exactly what he's done wrong and that's what his facial expression is showing? You wouldn't get the THE LOOK if you came into the room and he hadn't done anything wrong - right?

So why is it if you were to hold the book up to him and say "bad dog" he wouldn't recognize exactly what he was being corrected for? After all dogs do have a memory, they're able to remember several different commands, hand, verbal etc... 

If the dog doesn't understand he's done something wrong, chewing up the book, why then do we get the "LOOK"?

Now please don't get me wrong I'd never correct a dog I didn't catch *in the act* just because this is the way I've always done it and it seems to work as I've never had a problem dog, *KNOCK ON WOOD.*

So may final question is don't you think your dog is intelligent enough to recognize what he's done wrong and remember it?

Pete


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

I wonder the same thing everytime I go into the bedroom and see that my sweet little boy Austin has so kindly emptied my garbage can for me!!!! I'm looking forward to seeing the responses on this.....


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

That is a very good question...

We recently brought MacKenize as a puppy into our family, and Brady, who is three, suddenly is the best behaved dog. When we sees her doing anything wrong, he comes to us and looks at her, as if to say "I cannot believe she is doing that...what are you going to do?"


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## sharlin (Feb 26, 2007)

While they are intelligent - perhaps sometimes approaching that of 3-4 yr old - their concept of time is soooooooooooooooo different. If the book is in the mouth then "UH-OH I'm busted" appears. But if the book is on the floor a little worse for wear and they are laying somewhere else then the book has no meaning because it's not in the _NOW_ time wise. Within a few minutes perhaps, but anything beyond that no way - they've gone on to whatever else grabbed their attention.


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## EvilNessCroft (Feb 17, 2009)

I think maybe they do! One time, we left Molly alone for a few hours and when we came back, she just gave us that look, head and ears real low, but with her tail wagging because she was so happy to see us! Then we thought ''Uh oh! What did you do?!'' : Then we found a shoe on her blanket, a little chewed up! And she has been corrected a few times before that!


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

sharlin said:


> While they are intelligent - perhaps sometimes approaching that of 3-4 yr old - their concept of time is soooooooooooooooo different. If the book is in the mouth then "UH-OH I'm busted" appears. But if the book is on the floor a little worse for wear and they are laying somewhere else then the book has no meaning because it's not in the _NOW_ time wise. Within a few minutes perhaps, but anything beyond that no way - they've gone on to whatever else grabbed their attention.


This is what I've heard sharlin, "the now time", but then why *the look* with the head down and wagging tail being caught after the act?



EvilNessCroft said:


> I think maybe they do! One time, we left Molly alone for a few hours and when we came back, she just gave us that look, head and ears real low, but with her tail wagging because she was so happy to see us! Then we thought ''Uh oh! What did you do?!'' : Then we found a shoe on her blanket, a little chewed up! And she has been corrected a few times before that!


EvilNessCroft, exactly my point. You know they've done something even before you know what it because of the way they behave. If they only live in the "now time" why do we see this behavior often times well after the crime  has been commited? 

Pete


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I think they do know when they do wrong. Because they will give me the look when I catch them doing something wrong even if I dont say anything. Or they will walk away holding their head down, like I am sorry.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I am from the "no they don't" camp. I do not think they know right from wrong but they do LEARN what makes you happy and what makes you not so happy! Mainly because when they make you happy you let them know you are happy and when they make you not so happy you also let them know that. That is what if you do not correct at the time of the "wrong" doing they have no idea why you are actually wrong but will assume whatever they are doing at thte moment you convey that unhappiness is the cause of your displeasure and not the actual "wrong" doing. So in Sharlin's example of later finding the book a little worse for wear if the dog was then saying sitting on a chair (assuming that is okay behavior) then the dog may think the displeasure is because it is on the chair and not what it did to the book.
Hope that makes sense.


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## sharlin (Feb 26, 2007)

FeatherRiverSam said:


> This is what I've heard sharlin, "the now time", but then why *the look* with the head down and wagging tail being caught after the act?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't forget they are EXTREMELY keen on body posture and tone - it's hardwired. I believe they know what is acceptable and not acceptable behaviour but not right vs wrong. Otherwise we would be saying that everytime they did something wrong they had planned it knowing so. I don't believe they sit there thinking "hmmmmm - I'm bored today, I'm gonna chew up the toliet paper roll" They're bored, they pass the toliet paper roll, and WHAM - confetti!!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

No. They don't understand concepts of right and work. They understand "works" and "doesn't work". Many dogs learn that chewing things in the absence of the owner "works". Why? B/c you aren't there to interrupt/reprimand, etc. when they are chewing.

The "look" comes from a dog learning to read your body language. They're great at that. I gaurantee that when you come home and see the chewed book, your facial expression and body language is broadcasting that you're unhappy... and the dog understands THAT. Even if you aren't outwardly angry, there's something subtle that happens when you first spot the chewed item. Dogs are MASTERS at reading the smallest, most subtle of body/facial gestures. BUT, he's unable to connect it with the fact that 2 hours ago, when he chewed the book, THAT was the act that ultimated resulted in your "angry face".


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## Noey (Feb 26, 2009)

I think they learn right and wrong from us.

We take them from a world of instinct and bring them into our world. They still have the instinct but we train them to do things and feel things more along the lines of how we feel them.

I think they know good behavior from bad based on our reactions and our training so in a way they do know positive and negative responses – a good or bad reaction.

Do they feel it or would it be define as we define it – probably not.

Putting my human emotions on it they feel. 

I’ve seen a dog grieve, be happy, be sad, be calculated and sneaky, learn pattern, and teach himself how to do things. They are intelligent animals – to define emotions they have on our human scale I think overlooks that fact.

My dogs are able to since emotion from a human and know what that person is feeling/intent and or if they are dangerous. They are a bit more evolved than we give them credit for.

And babies learn everything as well – they do not know right from wrong or good and bad…it’s a taught behavior. A mom dog corrects a puppy – that is teaching right wrong and good and bad on some level.


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## Cosi (May 22, 2008)

We have one dog that "tells" on the other dog ..he is only 6 mos. older.. but he is a tattle tale. No one would believe us..if they have not seen it for themselves.


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

AmbikaGR said:


> I am from the "no they don't" camp. I do not think they know right from wrong but they do LEARN what makes you happy and what makes you not so happy! Mainly because when they make you happy you let them know you are happy and when they make you not so happy you also let them know that. That is what if you do not correct at the time of the "wrong" doing they have no idea why you are actually wrong but will assume whatever they are doing at thte moment you convey that unhappiness is the cause of your displeasure and not the actual "wrong" doing. So in Sharlin's example of later finding the book a little worse for wear if the dog was then saying sitting on a chair (assuming that is okay behavior) then the dog may think the displeasure is because it is on the chair and not what it did to the book.
> Hope that makes sense.


I see what you are saying, the sitting in the chair becomes what he thinks he has done wrong analogy, but my question is still unanswered. If it's okay to sit in the chair and the dog has done nothing wrong when you walk in you'll get the normal happy greeting BUT if the dog has done something wrong, chewing up the book for example, that same dog sitting in the chair is very likely to have "the look of guilt" when you walk in instead of the happy go lucky look if he hadn't done something wrong. If you hold up the chewed up book and show it to the dog and give him a nooooooo it would seem to me that he knows what you're upset about.

Pete


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

i think they know right from wrong as Shelley gives me the look a soon as i walk out the door, I don't even get the chance to see if theres a hole dug, i already know by the look Shelley gives me. Her head is down low,her ears down low,shes in a sit position and sad looking eyes that say i'm sorry. She does know digging makes me unhappy but she can't help herself and continues to do it. I've seen a behavourist they said the adrenalin levels my dog has is what is causing her to dig,they said having her inside wouldn't help as she would then chew things up. 

Shelley is intelligent and can be sneaky about things, one time i was at the oval there was another dog on the other side of the oval. Well there were birds in the middle of the oval and Shelley loves to chase birds. Well she made out she was chasing the birds and then kept runing towards the other dog.


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## Noey (Feb 26, 2009)

Cosi said:


> We have one dog that "tells" on the other dog ..he is only 6 mos. older.. but he is a tattle tale. No one would believe us..if they have not seen it for themselves.


too cute. 

My Noah will alert me when Scout is dirty or stinky...because Noah cannot have a dirty and stinky puppy around.


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

sharlin said:


> Don't forget they are EXTREMELY keen on body posture and tone - it's hardwired. I believe they know what is acceptable and not acceptable behaviour but not right vs wrong. Otherwise we would be saying that everytime they did something wrong they had planned it knowing so. I don't believe they sit there thinking "hmmmmm - I'm bored today, I'm gonna chew up the toliet paper roll" They're bored, they pass the toliet paper roll, and WHAM - confetti!!





FlyingQuizini said:


> No. They don't understand concepts of right and work. They understand "works" and "doesn't work". Many dogs learn that chewing things in the absence of the owner "works". Why? B/c you aren't there to interrupt/reprimand, etc. when they are chewing.
> 
> The "look" comes from a dog learning to read your body language. They're great at that. I gaurantee that when you come home and see the chewed book, your facial expression and body language is broadcasting that you're unhappy... and the dog understands THAT. Even if you aren't outwardly angry, there's something subtle that happens when you first spot the chewed item. Dogs are MASTERS at reading the smallest, most subtle of body/facial gestures. BUT, he's unable to connect it with the fact that 2 hours ago, when he chewed the book, THAT was the act that ultimated resulted in your "angry face".


 

Okay I agree the dogs are very adept at reading your body language so if you walk in the room and see the chewed up book before you say anything the dog knows he's in trouble.
But, like EvilNessCroft pointed out, you come home and have no idea he's done anything wrong, so there's no negative body language for the dog to pick up on, yet the dog still shows all the signs of having done something wrong and it's only then that you suspect something is up. And generally there is something up .

Pete


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

FeatherRiverSam said:


> But, like EvilNessCroft pointed out, you come home and have no idea he's done anything wrong, so there's no negative body language for the dog to pick up on, yet the dog still shows all the signs of having done something wrong and it's only then that you suspect something is up. And generally there is something up .


Likely it's because the dog has learned that you coming in the door predicts your unhappy body language. The pattern becomes: human enters > (sees problem) > body language reacts accordingly. This sequence cues the dog's appeasing gesture that we interpret to as "guilt". So for the dog, the human entering the door is what sets off the chain of events. Dogs are masters at chaining together pieces of an event, so they begin to offer appeasing gestures at the first link in the chain --- the entrance of the human.


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

I knew you were going to say that Stephanie :doh: but if that were true every time you walked in the door the dog would have the same reaction and I don't think they do...I'll bet there are a lot viewers reading this that are nodding their heads saying yes I've seen this in my dog too. And the only time they get the head down and tail wagging is when the dog has actually done something wrong but not all the time.

I don't think we give them enough credit - I think they're more aware than what we give them credit for.

Pete


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FeatherRiverSam said:


> I see what you are saying, the sitting in the chair becomes what he thinks he has done wrong analogy, but my question is still unanswered. If it's okay to sit in the chair and the dog has done nothing wrong when you walk in you'll get the normal happy greeting BUT if the dog has done something wrong, chewing up the book for example, that same dog sitting in the chair is very likely to have "the look of guilt" when you walk in instead of the happy go lucky look if he hadn't done something wrong. If you hold up the chewed up book and show it to the dog and give him a nooooooo it would seem to me that he knows what you're upset about.
> 
> Pete


I think they learn what might elicit a bad reaction from you, and that "guilty" look is their attempt to appease you. It's anxiety that's paired with a situation that gets them in trouble.

I really don't think they understand it as "wrong." I do think that smart dogs can often make the connection that a torn up book, etc. might mean "I'm about to be in trouble." It's quite a different thing, though.


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

So Tippy does the smart dog realize that he's done something which his owner deems as unsuitable when he chews up the book even if he's in the chair when he's corrected?

Pete


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## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

Okay, so we come in the garage door, up the stairs to the kitchen. Duke is laying at the top of the stairs (behind the gate) and thee minute we walk in he's up with his tail between his legs and slinks to the back door.

We find behind the bar area banana peels - counter surfing again. We didn't see this when we walked in so we couldn't give the "angry human" body language but oh boy did he know that was a no no.

He's even watched behind his shoulders right before counter surfing to see if I'm looking and he immediately jumps down. Thankfully we've broken him of that - or the fact that he just doesn't feel like it anymore. But he doesn't do it.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Duke's Momma said:


> Okay, so we come in the garage door, up the stairs to the kitchen. Duke is laying at the top of the stairs (behind the gate) and thee minute we walk in he's up with his tail between his legs and slinks to the back door.
> 
> We find behind the bar area banana peels - counter surfing again. We didn't see this when we walked in so we couldn't give the "angry human" body language but oh boy did he know that was a no no.
> 
> He's even watched behind his shoulders right before counter surfing to see if I'm looking and he immediately jumps down. Thankfully we've broken him of that - or the fact that he just doesn't feel like it anymore. But he doesn't do it.



Again I believe that Duke has learned the counter surfing will not please you but if you are not there at the time to make the consequence outweigh the reward he will do it anyway. And the consequence can be as little as a frown, it is what YOU do when you are not pleased with him.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

FeatherRiverSam said:


> I see what you are saying, the sitting in the chair becomes what he thinks he has done wrong analogy, but my question is still unanswered. If it's okay to sit in the chair and the dog has done nothing wrong when you walk in you'll get the normal happy greeting BUT if the dog has done something wrong, chewing up the book for example, that same dog sitting in the chair is very likely to have "the look of guilt" when you walk in instead of the happy go lucky look if he hadn't done something wrong. If you hold up the chewed up book and show it to the dog and give him a nooooooo it would seem to me that he knows what you're upset about.
> 
> Pete


As Shelly pointed out it is likely the dog is expecting a negative reaction upon your return because it is the norm. Or he has learned from past experience that chewing up the book will not make you happy so he knows the drill.
Think about like teaching a dog anything, in the beginning they do not get it right away most times. But with repetition they learn what to expect and/or what your tone/body language/facial expression means. You can try it sometime when the dog does something that he knows is right and good but react as if it is not okay, the dog will react as if he did something wrong.


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

I also believe that it is "your response" to their dirty deed that earns the guilty looks, not any guilty feelings that they might have--I've chewed it all day, it was great...me, guilty? No way!! 
Casey is a world class counter cruiser, but he NEVER has done it while we were at home. He knows that doing so would earn a stern, EE EEH! However, he has no problems with doing so when I am at work. He greets me happily when I come in at these times and only begins to look "guilty" after I see and respond to his mischief! I really believe he is responding to my emotional response rather than to the deed itself.
One exception I think might be when they "mess" in the house. I had this with my last elderly golden who, due to medical reasons, had a difficult time making it through the day in her last couple of months. Before I realized what had happened, she would greet me in a truly contrite and submissive posture (avoiding eye contact, shaking!) I never scolded her, but she truly seemed to be sorry!
Who knows really, what they are thinking?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FeatherRiverSam said:


> So Tippy does the smart dog realize that he's done something which his owner deems as unsuitable when he chews up the book even if he's in the chair when he's corrected?
> 
> Pete


In my opinion? No. He can't figure out which part of the book, the chair, the carpet, the cologne you're wearing, your facial expressions, your tone of voice, or the hum from the refrigerator is the thing he's in trouble for. He doesn't even get "in trouble." He gets "bad thing happens" and can make an association between it and what he's currently doing, which is sitting in the chair. I think that's the extent of a dog's moral understanding of "bad" behavior.

He has to have his mouth on that book for a correction to work, since you're not teaching him that chewing a book is wrong, but rather associating something unpleasant with the sensation of having a book in the mouth. Once he drops the book, the time for an effective correction is over. 

And even that's not the most effective thing you can do. The dog has an urge to chew, and you can _positively_ teach him where to express that urge. Positive reinforcement is much more powerful than using a negative association to extinguish a behavior. 

I think we make a huge mistake when we take a correction beyond an instant or think that the strength of a correction is what will teach the dog. Once he's been unpleasantly interrupted, the learning moment is over, and it's up to us to redirect him to a new learning moment. Once he drops that book, further correction is pointless. However, he's probably still feeling the urge to chew, so redirecting him to an appropriate chew and praising him for taking it will teach him more than yelling or rolling up a newspaper.

I think dogs have a wonderfully evolved sense of community and family, and they understand relationships and bonding in a truly sophisticated way. They also have spectacular memory for geography and physical space. In some ways, dogs have very sophisticated brains and emotional systems. What they _don't_ have is the ability to understand representation in body language (like pointing and gesturing at something) or the ability to chain together a complex series of events and consequences. The understand a gesture or a word _paired_ with a behavior (that's how commands work), but they don't understand that a gesture or a word can represent a meaning. So dragging a dog back to something he did wrong or pointing at it and yelling is simply strange and scary to him.

My philosophy? You have to correct during a mistake for the correction to work, and since positive reinforcement is so much more powerful (and better for the dog's temperament and your relationship with him), we should make every effort to figure out ways to work on behavior positively and to eliminate corrections wherever possible, while using the gentlest effective level of correction when we must.


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## EvilNessCroft (Feb 17, 2009)

Duke's Momma said:


> We didn't see this when we walked in so we couldn't give the "angry human" body language but oh boy did he know that was a no no.


Same here. When I came home that day and opened the door I didn't give any "angry human" body language because I didn't even know what she did! I just smiled and talk to her in a happy voice as usual. Then I noticed she had her head and ears low with that ''Sorry'' Look! That's when I thought ''What did you do?'' And I looked around and saw the shoe!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

EvilNessCroft said:


> Same here. When I came home that day and opened the door I didn't give any "angry human" body language because I didn't even know what she did! I just smiled and talk to her in a happy voice as usual. Then I noticed she had her head and ears low with that ''Sorry'' Look! That's when I thought ''What did you do?'' And I looked around and saw the shoe!


How often do you come home and quickly find some sort of trouble? If it's often, that's where I think the dog is anticipating your "poop face look". So even when you come in and don't immediately notice something, the dog's experience is that the human enters and w/in x amt of time, finds trouble and gets upset. So still, you entering is what sets off the chain of human finds trouble > gets upset.


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## EvilNessCroft (Feb 17, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> How often do you come home and quickly find some sort of trouble? If it's often, that's where I think the dog is anticipating your "poop face look". So even when you come in and don't immediately notice something, the dog's experience is that the human enters and w/in x amt of time, finds trouble and gets upset. So still, you entering is what sets off the chain of human finds trouble > gets upset.


Well, I have to say that her taking a shoe and chewing on it incident was when she was a couple months younger! It doesn't happen anymore. But I do understand what you're saying.


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

Noey said:


> I think they learn right and wrong from us.
> 
> We take them from a world of instinct and bring them into our world. They still have the instinct but *we train them to do things and feel things more along the lines of how we feel them.*
> I think they know good behavior from bad based on our reactions and our training so in a way they do know positive and negative responses – a good or bad reaction.
> ...


I believe we give them our values, too. To us, chewed shoe = bad. To them chewed shoe = mmmm tasty leather that smells like my human mmm



Cosi said:


> We have one dog that "tells" on the other dog ..he is only 6 mos. older.. but he is a tattle tale. No one would believe us..if they have not seen it for themselves.


My dogs will 'tattle' also, esp. if it's food related, say a snatched morsel or wrapper from the counter or table...the one 'left out' will find me with lowered head and slow wagging tail and turn toward whatever room it's happening in. All without a word from me.



tippykayak said:


> >snipped< What they _don't_ have is the ability to understand representation in body language (like pointing and gesturing at something) or the ability to chain together a complex series of events and consequences. The understand a gesture or a word _paired_ with a behavior (that's how commands work), *but they don't understand that a gesture or a word can represent a meaning.*


Ahhh, but I feel they can and do associate certain actions/responses/gestures with a resulting event. By gestures, say, take the event of mating. A female will show a posture, the male thinks 'hmm, I know what that means', and possibly give a sniff of the bottom or hold his head over and against the females shoulder. Depending on her response to his gestures, mating might/might not take place. But he understands the event, right? 
I can shake my keys at the dogs and they full well know at least part of what that means. 
When they see luggage come out, or the RV get pulled into the driveway for packing, they are relentless to be put into the car or truck, even for 2 hours before we leave....
That, to me, shows a bigger depth of 'meaning' to them.
Or am I just way off base

And here's another abstract thought....we talk of what the pups do wrong or bad while we are out or not looking. Anyone have experience with a pup doing things they have been taught to please us while we're gone? Like put all their toys in the toybox, or put all their tennis balls in a row.
Mine certainly don't, lol. But they know that will get them a treat when I'm home.
Food for thought


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Absolutely.

When Gilmour comes in the house with a rock or stick, he is amazing at trying to hide the fact that he has it. He knows he's not supposed to have it.

He will even stop mouthing the rock, and just let it sit in there and stare at me when I look at him with a "nothing to see here, go back to your TV" look on his face


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

moverking said:


> Ahhh, but I feel they can and do associate certain actions/responses/gestures with a resulting event.


Absolutely. I don't think I was all that clear. I don't think they can abstract a meaning. For example, your dog knows "hurry up" means he should pee, and he knows that "no" means something bad. He's very, very clear on these associations.

But if he pees in the house and you say "no hurry up," he's not able to understand at all because he cannot abstract the meanings. He can only understand that a signal is associated with a result.

They know that luggage = trip, but that's pure association. They don't know that one leads to the other in a logical or necessary fashion. I wouldn't consider that abstract meaning, just associative.


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## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

Right and wrong, the moral definition, of course not. But they know when they get rewards, treats or pets and how to live a life they enjoy so they do what what we want. 

They most specially like routine and, in my experience, love to know each day will resemble the day before. I just had to board the bumpasses for nine days and it took them about twenty minutes to forget it.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I think they do to a certain extent. We've all had our dogs grab some forbidden object and come prancing by so we can see. For them, it's all about getting a game started. They know they're not supposed to have that pair of socks and that you will get up and 'chase' them. Keep away is the game. In that instance they know they are doing something wrong but it's just for the fun of it. I know if we don't chase Penny, she'll lose interest in the socks and let them lay somewhere. In her mind, she never intended to chew the socks because she knows it's wrong.

OTOH, our angel Polly had such a hang-dog look when we came home that we actually inspected the house to find out what the guilty look was about. She never did anything wrong, she was just so apologetic!

As far as knowing a time frame: Penny knows she gets biscuits twice a day from each of us. Morning is easy for her because it starts her day. She doesn't get her evening biscuits until 5:00. She is always right on time with asking for them. It must have something to do with our activities that tip her off as to the time, or the daylight.

I just notice this is an old thread. But I'm always interested in how animals think and reason.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

I think people are just imposing human meaning on random variations in doggy behavior. Your dog is acting a little weird, you find a chewed-up shoe, you decide the dog was "looking guilty." We just THINK that the dog should be guilty over chewing the shoe, so if they happen to have their tail down or something, we decide that must be their "guilty look." But we've all had times where we come find a chewed-up shoe and the dog is standing there wagging his tail like always. And there are times when we come home and the dog doesn't respond as enthusiastically as other times, but we don't find a chewed-up shoe later.

In wishIhad2golden's example of the dog grabbing a forbidden object, all the dog knows is that sometimes when they pick something up, you come chase them. They DON'T know they're "not supposed to have it." They pick it up to try to get a game started, and if you don't start a game, there's no point to carrying it around anymore. It has nothing to do with whether it's "wrong."


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I can't argue your point katie with any scientific proof but I can say she never tries to start a game with one of her 'approved' toys.

I don't apply human behavior to my animals but I do believe they are are capable of a lot more 'if/then' decisions than they are given credit for. Just mho.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

You don't get all excited and chase her when she picks up her "approved" toys, so there's no reason for her to try to start a game by picking up one of them.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Cosi said:


> We have one dog that "tells" on the other dog ..he is only 6 mos. older.. but he is a tattle tale. No one would believe us..if they have not seen it for themselves.


 
I have one of those tattle tale dogs too! It's pretty funny when we are greeted at the door with this dog (Barkley) telling us all about what Toby did! Once Toby had countersurfed the peanut butter jar, another time a container of oatmeal, another time "Toby" broke into our former food storage bin (or so he said, but his tummy was pretty full too).


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

When Lucky wants my attention and is in a manipulative mood.... he will pick up my daughter's stuffed animal and walk in front of me back and forth until I notice. I say "excuse me?" and he gently lays the stuffed animal down and runs to get his toy. I DO think he knows its wrong.....thats why he does it in the first place. 

When Lucky pooped in our new house....he hid. We had an issue with this for a while and everytime I got up and no Lucky was to be found I started searching for the poop. I don't think his concience was bothering him...but he knew we would be displeased.

I don't think dogs have "right and wrong" down in a moral sense. We have the capability to know something is wrong even if there are no negative consequences for doing the wrong deed. We can choose regardless of consequences.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> I have one of those tattle tale dogs too! It's pretty funny when we are greeted at the door with this dog (Barkley) telling us all about what Toby did! Once Toby had countersurfed the peanut butter jar, another time a container of oatmeal, another time "Toby" broke into our former food storage bin (or so he said, but his tummy was pretty full too).


I have one, too. Danny. He always tattles on the foster puppies. If they are chewing on something they shouldn't or if they pee, he comes over and dances in front of me before he climbs up in my lap. LOL. He loves his foster puppies, but they stress him out when they misbehave!


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## Makino82 (Oct 23, 2009)

Mine has learned to 'pause' her chewing when she has something in her mouth that she's not supposed to when I look at her. She associates me seeing her chewing, with me taking it away from her. Every time she has something random in her mouth she will chew until I look at her and then stop chewing and keep her mouth motionless until I look away again. That doesn't demonstrate knowing right and wrong, but does demonstrate some sort of reasoning to be able to stop chewing when looked at in an effort to keep what she wants from being taken away.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Exactly my point. She can differentiate between her toys and the ones that will be taken away. Although at 8 we can refuse to engage and she drops the forbidden object and lays down. Not going to be a game today!  

She will, sometimes, pick up one of her toys and 'throw' it at us indicating she wants to play. Usually that game will be a close-combat game of keep away and tuggy.

I think we're actually saying the same thing in different ways.



katieanddusty said:


> You don't get all excited and chase her when she picks up her "approved" toys, so there's no reason for her to try to start a game by picking up one of them.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

I am from the NO they don't remember camp, either. Dogs live in here and now and they are also VERY in tune to our bodies and our body langauge and our scents and pheromones and how we react to different things. So, why do you get the look??? Because you are saying......What did you just do???? and Buddy, Muffy and Molly are responding to your body language and tone of voice and the fact that they are reading you like you would be reading that book on the floor.

Ever watch a pack of dogs communicate with each other?? They do it by looking at each other and by body langauge and subtle cues that most of us wouldn't ever even notice that the dogs had done. They are absolutely amazing creatures, for sure!!!


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