# Purebred Goldens having black puppies?



## Chrismounix

Has anyone ever heard of two purebred goldens having black puppies?


----------



## Lucky's mom

I think I've heard of this.....it could happen due to a recessive gene that goes way back. Did your Golden's have black pups?


----------



## MurphyTeller

The times I've heard of it have been two very distinct scenerios:
The first is a couple of BYB dogs - no pedigrees - no real guarantee that either parent was pedigreed...there are some people marketing black golden retrievers.
The second is that another dog "got" the bitch as well as the intended. Several puppies and two different sires. There are some people who actually double-cover a bitch on purpose - using frozen semen and then doing a natural..it increases the chances of puppies and they sort out who was by who by DNA...

Genetically speaking the golden retriever is a black dog...hard to get your head around that one isn't it? It's like saying in oil painting black is an abscence of color and white is all colors - you need to have done a certain amount of tripping for that to make sense. Yellow or golden color combined with anything else will generally product black puppies. A noteable exception is a yellow lab x golden - those are usually yellow puppies. Every time this topic comes up someone always says "but I've seen blonde golden doodles" - true, but the color gene there is from the poodle not from the golden, or you are dealing with F1 crosses - I've WAY over simplified but in general golden x golden = golden. Golden x something else = black.

Erica


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

No! It is NOT possible. Yellow to yellow (gold) always produces yellow- the same is true of Labradors. Someone got out of her yard! LOL


----------



## Chrismounix

She is having them right now.


----------



## Chrismounix

She had 5 so far all black


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

PS two black flat coats CAN have a yellow puppy... but it's rare. But the opposite cannot occur.


----------



## SoGolden

Got any pics?


----------



## Chrismounix

Both dogs purebred, no chance of a stray mating. Could it be something with the geneology? Her grandfather is his father. Researched before mating and this was an acceptable match.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Everything I know about retriever color genetics says it's literally impossible- in both Labradors and Goldens (the yellow gene in Labs is the same yellow gene in Goldens). If something did happen and she got bred by a Lab or whatever, that really sucks! I am sorry... I'd be curious to see them either way. I am going to try to find a site explaining it...


----------



## Chrismounix

I will load some pictures shortly, she just had another. Come on Gold.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html


----------



## Lucky's mom

Gosh, I'm sorry. I know its a shock. I do want to see pictures of those puppies though....

I have seen a couple of accounts online regarding black puppies from a golden breeding...but it almost seem more possible for a stray breeding to happen.
then a gene thing.

I do know that yellow flat-coats look alot like goldens...is it possible that a yellow flat-coat is within the gene pool?


----------



## Chrismounix

Thank you, I am not sure what the heck is going on but we are researching like crazy.


----------



## Chrismounix

*Puppies*

Sorry these are so blurry they are from a camera phone.


----------



## mylissyk

Honestly, there has to have been an unplanned mating. It's just not possible for purebred Golden Retrievers to produce black puppies. And I think I see white on some toes? The puppies can't be fathered by a Golden Retriever, I know that's disappointing.


----------



## Lucky's mom

It just seems strange that every single one of them are black. YOu would think that if it were a stray breeding, you might have some variation.....any black labs around?

I sure want to see these pups grow. Keep on with the pictures!


----------



## MyCodyBoy

are you 100% sure she was not ever left out of your sit and possibly mated with another dog? I would be very intrested to see pictures of these pups as they grow.
So tiny and cute! enjoy them as they grow.


----------



## Chrismounix

She remained indoors the entire time accept to go to the bathroom an mate. 10 days solid. Today is day 63, they mated within 10 minutes of her walking in the door. she is having them like clockwork other than them being black. It is very strange.


----------



## Pointgold

They absolutely cannot be Golden Retrievers. There was another dog involved, somehow.


----------



## 3 goldens

*wHITE ON TOES SEENS PRETTY COMMON IN GOLDENS. MY BUCK HAD WHITE TOES. A BREEDER I KNOW HAD ABOUT HALF OF HER LAST LITTER WITH WHITE TOES AND THERE WAS NO CHANCE OF ANY STRAY MATING.*

*I DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THE COLORS, ETC AND WHAT CAUSES WHAT COLORS. i HAV REEAD OF PURE GOLDENS HAVING A BLACK PUPPY AND WHAT I READ SAID IT WAS A THROW BACK TO THE BLACK RETRIEVER WAY BACK DOWN THE LINBE. I REALLY DON'T KNOW, JUST KNOW WHAT I READ. I WOULD THINK THAT AFTER 100 YEARS, THAT WOULD NOT SHOW UP, BUT I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT SORT O THING.*


----------



## WLR

Ahhhh, So then a golden absorbs blue/cyan and reflects yellow/red ?


----------



## dogluver04

I dont know anything about Genes and whatnot.. But Goldens were originated from Flat coats so I dont see why it couldnt happen.. I mean anythings possible!


----------



## Lucky's mom

I say...a puppy dna test is in order. And I want to see the results...


----------



## Chrismounix

We are going to call our vet in the morning and see about getting the DNA test done. She has had 7 now.


----------



## BeauShel

Chrismounix said:


> She remained indoors the entire time accept to go to the bathroom an mate. 10 days solid. Today is day 63, they mated within 10 minutes of her walking in the door. she is having them like clockwork other than them being black. It is very strange.


 
So was she brought to your house and then mated. If she was then I think some other dog got to her before she came to your home. I dont know much about breeding but I dont see how all of them would be black if she only mated with another golden. But I will say this, they are cute little rascals.


----------



## Tahnee GR

An entire litter of black puppies? No, they cannot be purebred. There is an excellent article on color genetics in one of the recent GR News.

If it were one or two puppies with black spots, then possibly-somatic mutation. But not an entire litter.


----------



## MurphyTeller

Pointgold said:


> They absolutely cannot be Golden Retrievers. There was another dog involved, somehow.


Agreed. Even if it were possible for a random genetic mutation for produce a black puppy - you would not see seven of them. The closeness of the breeding likely has an effect on other things - but golden to golden cannot be black - if you are sure that there was only one dog involved then you have to look at the pedigrees of the sire and dam. Something is not right in Denmark.
Erica


----------



## Tahnee GR

You'll want to do the AKC DNA parentage test-you can get those kits from the AKC, very simple test. It will prove if the male you bred her to is the father.

The other DNA tests which purport to show what breed your dog is, have not shown themselves to be very reliable.


----------



## amy22

wow! I am very interested in this thread...please let us know wht happens with the DNA testing and what the vet says. They are VERY cute!!!


----------



## SunGold

MurphyTeller said:


> Agreed. Even if it were possible for a random genetic mutation for produce a black puppy - you would not see seven of them. The closeness of the breeding likely has an effect on other things - but golden to golden cannot be black - if you are sure that there was only one dog involved then you have to look at the pedigrees of the sire and dam. Something is not right in Denmark.
> Erica


I have had a puppy with a black foot - but a whole litter completely black? Sounds like a Lab got ahold of her. Do keep us posted - very interesting.
Oh, and good luck with those babies!! What's the final count? How many boys/girls?


----------



## Tanyac

Wow, I'm amazed! I don't profess to be any kind of expert on genetics, so getting the DNA test done seems the best course of action. Whatever, I'm sure they will be beautiful pups, but what a shock for you!!! Good luck, I hope you get the answers you are looking for... and more photos as they are growing please... just love puppies!


----------



## Ljilly28

I bet you were beyond shocked. Hopefully, all the pups are healthy and happy, no matter what color!


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Yeah, black spot is explained in a book I have- it has nothing to do with black vs yellow in a Lab or a Golden... a whole litter? Something jumped your fence, or someone who helped you care for the dog made a goof and did not tell you


----------



## LOVEisGOLDEN

what a shock! please keep us updated.


----------



## Tinsley

3 goldens said:


> *wHITE ON TOES SEENS PRETTY COMMON IN GOLDENS. MY BUCK HAD WHITE TOES. A BREEDER I KNOW HAD ABOUT HALF OF HER LAST LITTER WITH WHITE TOES AND THERE WAS NO CHANCE OF ANY STRAY MATING.*


Yes, Roo had white toes until he was about 12 weeks old, then they began to change to black but I have all his papers etc, white toes are definitely present in English GR I know that = ]


----------



## MurphyTeller

Tinsley said:


> Yes, Roo had white toes until he was about 12 weeks old, then they began to change to black but I have all his papers etc, white toes are definitely present in English GR I know that = ]


Correct - white toes and black spots are a different mutation entirely....Black or white spots can occur after injury (the folicle cells are damaged). 

My boy Teller has a small black spot about the size of a grain of rice on his left hock - it's really only 5-6 hairs and the only time I ever see it is when he's wet (I initially thought it was mud).

Genetics are a complicated thing - the conversation about black puppies resulting from a recessive gene is just not true or scientifically possible. Golden is the recessive coat color, black is the dominant color. That's why I said that goldens are essentially genetically black dogs. 

In flatcoats it's possible to get a yellow puppy - both parents would have to have a recessive gene for color (Bb) for example. If you bred two Bb animals you would expect to have 25% of the offspring BB (black), 50% Bb (black) and 25% bb (yellow). Flats aren't my breed, but I would imagine that most flatties are homozygous black (BB) - if there were more heterozygous (Bb) in the breeding population I would expect to see more yellow flatties - which you don't see many of - certainly not 25% of the population.

Erica


----------



## dogluver04

Im really curious to see what the DNA results are!!


----------



## Ruby'smom

MurphyTeller said:


> In flatcoats it's possible to get a yellow puppy - both parents would have to have a recessive gene for color (Bb) for example. If you bred two Bb animals you would expect to have 25% of the offspring BB (black), 50% Bb (black) and 25% bb (yellow). Flats aren't my breed, but I would imagine that most flatties are homozygous black (BB) - if there were more heterozygous (Bb) in the breeding population I would expect to see more yellow flatties - which you don't see many of - certainly not 25% of the population.
> 
> Erica


 
I have only heard homozygous and heterozygous mentioned when discussing chinchilla colours I didnt know it covered dogs as well :uhoh:
the puppies look gorgeous and I look forward to seeing more photos as they grow 
it would be interesting to see the DNA results too 
did you have homes arranged for the puppies and do they still want them now they are black not golden


----------



## tannernoodle

I don't know but I've seen black labs mixed with goldens and they're pretty dogs!


----------



## MyBaileyGirl

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Yeah, black spot is explained in a book I have- it has nothing to do with black vs yellow in a Lab or a Golden... a whole litter? Something jumped your fence, or *someone who helped you care for the dog made a goof and did not tell you*


This is what I was thinking...regardless...puppies are puppies and they are CUTE!!


----------



## For the Love of Goldens

So what was the outcome? How many pups and were there any gold ones? Do you think you'll have the DNA test on the father done? I know you probably have your hands full at the moment and for a few days, so good luck!!!


----------



## Maggies mom

We actually had a couple of puppies come in the rescue that there Mom was golden, dad was black lab... 5 puppies were black and looked like a lab and 5 were gold and looked like goldens.


----------



## Swampcollie

Chrismounix said:


> Has anyone ever heard of two purebred goldens having black puppies?


Theoretically speaking, it is possible for two goldens to produce a black puppy, but it would be a one in a million shot ivolving a defective yellow gene from one parent. 

If you're dealing with an entire litter of black puppies, it is far more likely that the bitch was bred by a different male. (Black or Chocolate Lab, Chessie, etc.)


----------



## dogluver04

Did we find anything out yet!? I would love to see more pictures! and im sure everyone else would too


----------



## Ash

Like others said not possible. It would be interesting if you did DNA testing. LOL DNA doesn't lie.


----------



## FishinBuddy

We should call Maury! Put the dogs on the show and have the Male golden get all pissed when he finds out that the bitch was cheatin! 

On a side note my wife had a black golden retreiver...who knows the REAL breed but it looked just like a golden and acted like on but was black...the pups are awesome and cute regardless....I also want more pics and an update


----------



## CarolinaCasey

FishinBuddy said:


> *We should call Maury! Put the dogs on the show and have the Male golden get all pissed when he finds out that the bitch was cheatin! *
> 
> On a side note my wife had a black golden retreiver...who knows the REAL breed but it looked just like a golden and acted like on but was black...the pups are awesome and cute regardless....I also want more pics and an update


That made me LOL. 

They are cute puppies! Enjoy them!


----------



## dogluver04

Any update on these gorgeous pups? did we find anything out!?


----------



## Tahnee GR

Ash said:


> Like others said not possible. It would be interesting if you did DNA testing. LOL DNA doesn't lie.


Parentage DNA is very accurate but those DNA tests that purport to tell the breed(s) of dog you have, have come up with some real doozies when breeders have tried it out


----------



## AmbikaGR

Hi Chris and welcome to the forum.
I did not see this thread before this and I am sure you now know that what you experienced is not possible with two purebred Goldens. 
I can't imagine how devastated you must have been after doing all your research looking for that perfect boy to breed to your sweet little girl. All the worry, special care, wondering if she's pregnant, worryng more and more as the time drew near and then this happens. I can only hope that the stud dog owner is not puttng you through the hassle of a DNA test, obviously the wrong dog bred your girl. I can't imagine she/he would want the world to know what happened and that she/he is responsible. 
I hope you and the pups are all doing fine and you are able to find loving caring home for these pups.


----------



## Shalva

just to answer about flat coats 
flat coats come in three colors 
black, liver and yellow and they can carry all three colors
the reason you dont see many yellows is because it is the only disqualifying fault in the breed and ifthere is any chance of a flat coat carrying yellow we will vetgen test for color and will not breed to any dog that may produce yellow pups. 
black is dominant to liver, and liver is dominant to yellow
for a black dog you need one black gene and you will have a black dog 
you must have two livers but the dog can carry yellow
to have yellow you must have two yellows.... 

as far as the black goldens 
I would expect a surreptitious meeting with a third party.... while an occasional mismark can occur and black is a common color in golden mismarks, an entire litter.... well that is just not likely.... 

good luck 
s


----------



## Golden Leo

Actually it is possible. I didn't hear for completley black but for part of the dog that is black. And both of parents have pedigree dating to 1900's. And breeder is very reputable. Of course they didn't get pedigree with that kind of fault but their brothers and sisters did. This is very, very rare but it happens. I wouldn't believe it if it didn't happened to that particular breeder. 
We know so little about genetics so far.... And goldens were not "pure" for thousands years, only a bit more than hundred..... Which leads to very interest question conceraning health issues- if black color comes out after more than a hundred years of selection (and this one you can't cheat on and easily hide it), is it possible to breed completley heathy dogs, or even HD free dogs?

But I'm sorry whole litter black.... I don't think they are goldens.... But they will be gorgeous dogs! Golden mixes can be soooo cute


----------



## gd8man

Here is what happens with an accidental breeding with a chocolate lab











ALL BLACK!!


----------



## MILLIESMOM

Hmmmm, I am very curious about the outcome of the dna testing too. The pups are very cute though. My Pearl is a lab and golden mix, but she looks all lab.


----------



## MurphyTeller

Golden Leo said:


> Actually it is possible. I didn't hear for completley black but for part of the dog that is black. And both of parents have pedigree dating to 1900's. And breeder is very reputable. Of course they didn't get pedigree with that kind of fault but their brothers and sisters did. This is very, very rare but it happens. I wouldn't believe it if it didn't happened to that particular breeder.


Remember that black spots on goldens is not the same as completely black dogs. There is a somatic mutation that causes yellow dogs to have black spots - that is normal (usually small spots btw) and isn't in any way a reflection on the quality of the breeding stock or breeder. 

Black puppies are not a mutation - they are a genetic impossibility from two purebred golden retriever parents. I haven't seen the original poster on here since the puppies started coming out black - I don't expect that we'll have any DNA results of the parentage of these puppies and what other dog "got" the bitch.

Erica


----------



## FurOnFour

Ten days is not long enough to keep your girl free from being bred by a friendly "neighbor". Unless you meant 10 days after the breeding. I always kept my yorkies separated for 22 - 24 days during the heat cycle.


----------



## AmbikaGR

I think the ten days she was referring to was the time the bitch was at the stud dog owner's place.


----------



## Pudden

MILLIESMOM said:


> Hmmmm, I am very curious about the outcome of the dna testing too. The pups are very cute though. My Pearl is a lab and golden mix, but she looks all lab.


that's interesting - Pudden is a lab/golden mix, but she looks mostly golden. She's got the beautiful golden butt feathers and a very luscious coat. She does have about 10 black hairs on her though - distributed in diff parts of the body.

I, too, would like to see how this turns out...what a mystery!


----------



## Zoeys mom

This is very interesting. Hopefully we can get another update and some pics of the sweet puppies. They are gorgeous no matter what color they are.


----------



## fostermom

My Jasmine's mom was a pure Golden. We are assuming that dad was a Lab:


----------



## Miko030290

She's the only one that's black when I saw her mother gave birth...


----------



## Miko030290

I just can't seem to upload here.. but you can add me on facebook for you to see my black golden retriver.. at first I was shocked but., I just wanna keep her.. this is the first time I ever have a golden retriever with this color.. 

heres my facebook

[email protected]

if you wanna take a look... she exactly have the looks but not the color.. she's a 3 month old puppy now... she's completely black...


----------



## coffenut

Chrismounix said:


> Both dogs purebred, no chance of a stray mating. Could it be something with the geneology? Her grandfather is his father. Researched before mating and this was an acceptable match.


So, in other words, she was breed with her uncle? 
I just don't get the "acceptability" of some dog breedings.
Then again, that's a whole other discussion. <G>


----------



## Brandiann

Not sure how this ancient thread was dug up.. but I had two golden lab mix dogs (sisters from the same litter) that looked totally different from each other.  The best sweetest dogs you could ask for.. Adopted a rescue kitten as their own, and saved a baby bird that fell from a nest.. Been 4 years since I lost the black one, and 7 since I lost the gold one, and I still miss them so much it hurts.


----------



## travisleekern

SoGolden said:


> Got any pics?


 yep, well video 28:59 in youtube.com/watch?v=0rVa4L9J0uA


----------



## Prism Goldens

I'm not going to waste time reading the 'my Golden is black and is purebred' posts because it is impossible. 
DK what the youtube is either, but there are not now nor have there ever been purebred Goldens who are black in coat color. There ARE on occasion black spots but those are totally different than a whole coat being black and if there is doubt around this, just know this: oat color genetics are extremely specific and not variable.


----------



## FurdogDad

I think folks that have "purebred" Goldens outside the legitimate possible color spectrum would be well served by investing in an Embark DNA test to verify what they really have....


----------



## GoldenDude

A fluffy black LGX is sometimes mistaken for a black Golden Retriever but they are a Lab Golden cross, not a Golden Retriever because there is no such thing as a black Golden Retriever.


----------

