# I could use some good thoughts for Gunner



## C's Mom

Sending good thoughts to Gunner that everything checks out OK physically and that he soon relaxes around others again.


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## mylissyk

I hope the exam yields some answers. You might also ask them to run a thyroid panel, it can cause behavior changes if they need thyroid meds.


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## LifeOfRiley

mylissyk said:


> I hope the exam yields some answers. You might also ask them to run a thyroid panel, it can cause behavior changes if they need thyroid meds.


Yeah, I'm definitely going to have them run a full thyroid panel. He's not showing any other symptoms of a thyroid problem, but I want to have it checked anyway, just in case. 

I'm almost hoping that it IS a medical problem (as long as it's treatable.) If it's just a behavioral thing and he'll now lunge at children, that is not good.


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## Ranger

Oh geez, best wishes sent your way. Those stupid little dogs!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I'd say to have his thyroid checked, too.


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## Debles

Praying for dear Gunner. If it isn't physical, the incident today could be because he has become so anxious expecting other dogs and then the girl barked at him, really freaked him out.
Hoping it is something that can be treated! Keep us updated!


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## Debles

Does he have all the symptoms of EPI? I read about it and it is so common in GSD's! I didn't know what it was or about the commonality in GSD's. 
Praying that isn't it.. even though it sounds treatable.It sounds horribly painful.. anything involving the pancreas always is.


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## Karen519

*Gunner*

Saying prayers for Gunner and you.


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## amy22

Sending lots of prayers for Gunner and you. Please keep us updated.


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## BeauShel

Sending prayers for Gunner and you. I know you must be scared and worried. Give gunner a big hug and kiss.


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## LifeOfRiley

Thanks, everyone. I'm really worried about him. 
I was sort of thinking the same thing. If there isn't a physical cause, it might just be that this place is too much for him. He's always been well-socialized, but he's not used to having so _many_ people and so _many _dogs coming at him from all directions, all the time. He's fine with all the commotion at the vet's office, PetSmart, etc., but that's not his territory.

I'm concerned about mom, too. She's really stressing out over this. The situations here are unavoidable and she keeps picturing a little kid, or someone with a dog, rounding a corner before I have time to react and something really awful happening. She doesn't trust him right now and I can't blame her. At this point, I don't either.
It's just so out of character for him...



Debles said:


> Does he have all the symptoms of EPI? I read about it and it is so common in GSD's! I didn't know what it was or about the commonality in GSD's.
> Praying that isn't it.. even though it sounds treatable.It sounds horribly painful.. anything involving the pancreas always is.


Oh, he does have EPI - no question about that. He was diagnosed in December of '08. (His TLI results came back at <1.4 the first time and <1.0 when I had him tested again last year.) 

We've had it completely under control, though. Once we found the right food and the right enzymes, he bounced right back and has been doing _extremely_ well. He gained his weight back quickly, no symptoms, no problems, no nothing. He just went in for his check-up last week and even the vet said that he looks incredible for a GSD of his age, let alone a GSD of his age with EPI.
But what scares me is that, even though it seems to be under control and he's not showing any of the typical symptoms, he may not be absorbing all the nutrients he needs and that could be causing him to act flaky. 
I don't know how they'd determine which nutrients he's not absorbing (if that is the case.) _Can_ they determine that?

He has an appointment with the vet Saturday morning, so I guess we'll go from there.
Does he have to be fasted for a thyroid panel? They didn't say and I didn't think to ask.


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## nixietink

No, not fasting involved for a thyroid panel. Remember to have them run the FULL panel and not just the T4...although you probably already knew that.

I'm thinking good thoughts for you both! I know you guys have been through a lot lately. I hope his vet check goes well.


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## LifeOfRiley

nixietink said:


> No, not fasting involved for a thyroid panel. Remember to have them run the FULL panel and not just the T4...although you probably already knew that.
> 
> I'm thinking good thoughts for you both! I know you guys have been through a lot lately. I hope his vet check goes well.


Okay, thanks. I figured they would have mentioned it if I needed to fast him, but I wanted to make sure.
And yeah, I'll be sure to tell them that I want the full panel. They can run any and all other tests they'd like to, as well. I don't know what else it could be, but if there's a one in a million chance that it might be this or that, they can just go ahead and test for it. I'm not going for any half-measures. I want them to find the problem, or rule absolutely everything out.


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## Debles

LifeOfRiley said:


> Thanks, everyone. I'm really worried about him.
> I was sort of thinking the same thing. If there isn't a physical cause, it might just be that this place is too much for him. He's always been well-socialized, but he's not used to having so _many_ people and so _many _dogs coming at him from all directions, all the time. He's fine with all the commotion at the vet's office, PetSmart, etc., but that's not his territory.
> 
> I'm concerned about mom, too. She's really stressing out over this. The situations here are unavoidable and she keeps picturing a little kid, or someone with a dog, rounding a corner before I have time to react and something really awful happening. She doesn't trust him right now and I can't blame her. At this point, I don't either.
> It's just so out of character for him...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, he does have EPI - no question about that. He was diagnosed in December of '08. (His TLI results came back at <1.4 the first time and <1.0 when I had him tested again last year.)
> 
> We've had it completely under control, though. Once we found the right food and the right enzymes, he bounced right back and has been doing _extremely_ well. He gained his weight back quickly, no symptoms, no problems, no nothing. He just went in for his check-up last week and even the vet said that he looks incredible for a GSD of his age, let alone a GSD of his age with EPI.
> But what scares me is that, even though it seems to be under control and he's not showing any of the typical symptoms, he may not be absorbing all the nutrients he needs and that could be causing him to act flaky.
> I don't know how they'd determine which nutrients he's not absorbing (if that is the case.) _Can_ they determine that?
> 
> He has an appointment with the vet Saturday morning, so I guess we'll go from there.
> Does he have to be fasted for a thyroid panel? They didn't say and I didn't think to ask.


Sorry I misunderstood your first post: didn't realize he had been diagnosed and treated. But you are right: he could be having symptoms/pain you aren't aware of. 
I wonder about that with my Gunner. His thyroid and eye issues are being treated and the testing says successfully but Gunner is so stoic I often wonder if he's in pain and thus the reason for his anxiety. I wish they could tell us!!!!


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## LifeOfRiley

Debles said:


> Sorry I misunderstood your first post: didn't realize he had been diagnosed and treated. But you are right: he could be having symptoms/pain you aren't aware of.
> I wonder about that with my Gunner. His thyroid and eye issues are being treated and the testing says successfully but Gunner is so stoic I often wonder if he's in pain and thus the reason for his anxiety. I wish they could tell us!!!!


I don't think my initial post made much sense in regards to that. (My fingers and my brain aren't always in sync. lol.) 

And yes, if I've ever wished he could talk, it's now! 
What doesn't make sense to me is that, if it IS a physical issue, wouldn't I be seeing some attitude here at home, too? I mean, I would think that he'd be getting a little snarky with Riley too, and he's not.


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## timberwolf

Sending prayers to you and Gunner!!!!


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## nixietink

LifeOfRiley said:


> Okay, thanks. I figured they would have mentioned it if I needed to fast him, but I wanted to make sure.
> And yeah, I'll be sure to tell them that I want the full panel. They can run any and all other tests they'd like to, as well. I don't know what else it could be, but if there's a one in a million chance that it might be this or that, they can just go ahead and test for it. I'm not going for any half-measures. I want them to find the problem, or rule absolutely everything out.


Too bad not all dog owners are like you!


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## LifeOfRiley

nixietink said:


> Too bad not all dog owners are like you!


Oh, I'll let them run every test under the sun. I really, _really_ want them to find a treatable, physical problem. If they don't, I don't know where we'll go from here. 
My mom's done if it's not a physical issue. She loves Gunner, but she's a bit more old school than I am and, as far as she's concerned, he's a GSD who lunged aggressively at a child (for no good reason) and that's a line you don't cross. To her way of thinking, it can't be excused. It's not like he's young, or lacks training, or any other reason that would grant him a "pass" in this situation. 
So they really need to find something.


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## Jo Ellen

Oh no  I don't like to hear this, especially your last post.


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## Noey

LifeOfRiley said:


> Oh, I'll let them run every test under the sun. I really, _really_ want them to find a treatable, physical problem. If they don't, I don't know where we'll go from here.
> My mom's done if it's not a physical issue. She loves Gunner, but she's a bit more old school than I am and, as far as she's concerned, he's a GSD who lunged aggressively at a child (for no good reason) and that's a line you don't cross. To her way of thinking, it can't be excused. It's not like he's young, or lacks training, or any other reason that would grant him a "pass" in this situation.
> So they really need to find something.


is he in a harness or just collar? I'd get a harness so you have better control of him when walking. 

I hope the test give you some ideas - have his vision checked. Our family GSD was having issues and it ended up his vision tanked. They say he sees like looking through coke bottles. So it's possible if vision has changed - it could be an issue. or even tooth or ear issues - or even his smeller (nose) might be off)
:crossfing:crossfing:crossfing


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## RedDogs

1) I would strongly recommend you make an appt with a vet behaviorist... (is it a surprise I said that?). Given his health issues, a vet behaviorist would be much more qualified to help you than a super experienced trainer.
2) Make that appt now, so that when you get your health tests back, you're closer to the appt date than if you wait to schedule.
3) Remember, that even if it IS physical, you still need to do some behavior work and management. Health problems don't always mean that the changed emotions return to their normal.
4) Note that many normal, healthy, happy, well socialized dogs do not do as well around unpredictable/special needs kids (YES, there are some who do VERY well!). 
5) Think about the "bite threshold model". Maybe he's not so good with kids in general. And not so good with strange noises, and not so good with the discomfort/pain/changed perceptions. But he's able to handle situations with any one of those factors. When all of them were stacked up though, he was over threshold.
6) Increase your management. Especially because of his breed and your mom's perception, there is really no excuse for good management from this point forward. On leash walks, he's right near you. Make wider turns at corners so that you have plenty of space. I would recommend a head halter so you can physically control the troublesome part of a dog if someone else comes near. Avoid areas where you will be likely to encounter people/kids/dogs. Let him have more leash/sniffing/etc in areas that are more wide open and you can see what's going on. Practice "Emergency responses" where you call him to you and feed feed feed feed until the potential danger is past. For this I have my dog right in front of me, facing me, and as close to my body as possible. This way they can't easily see/be distracted by everything else going on and it gives more space to everything/one else.

In my limited experience with EPI, resolving the health problems generally does not make the behavior go completely back to normal. It DOES allow for better learning/training to come in place and the dogs CAN lead normal and happy and healthy lifestyles, with just a bit of extra management.


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## LifeOfRiley

Well, the vet thinks there's a good chance that this is related to his EPI. 
His weight is down again. When we went for his routine check-up on the 12th he was down to 77lbs (from 82.) It didn't concern me at the time - I chalked it up to the additional exercise he'd been getting while we were working through his separation anxiety. 
When they checked his weight Saturday morning, he was down another pound and some change, and I'd been increasing his food a bit, so that's not a good sign.
She said that a thyroid issue is not likely, but we'll make sure. 
His eyesight and his hearing are fine. Very good, actually.

We were there for over an hour and a half. She had the other vet on duty take two of her patients so she could spend the time with us. (And we're new clients here - these people are wonderful.) 

She thinks it comes down to three possibilities: his EPI, major stress/anxiety issues, or both. 
She's seen cases where EPI has been under control for years and, for whatever reason, the enzymes stop working. If that's the case, the prognosis is very grim.
The other possibility is that the move and this environment is too much for him. She agreed that he seems like a very even-tempered, well-adjusted dog, but she did recognize how tightly wound he is. (He's _always_ like that.) Any other vet we've been to has only noticed that he's a friendly GSD that they don't have to exercise caution with - they've never looked beyond the surface. She thinks it's possible that this environment, with so many people and so many dogs being in _his territory_, all the time, is overwhelming for him. To a point where the anxiety is so bad that it's causing weight loss. 

Either way, it's not good. If the EPI is a factor, there's nothing else we can do.
If it's just stress/anxiety, we can work with him but she agrees that this is probably the worst possible environment in which to do that. She said that we could make some progress with him and have some success, but she advised against getting my hopes too high. She thinks it would be wise to hope and pray for the best, but prepare for the worst - mainly because every time he shows aggression towards another dog, or now possibly a little kid, it's a potential complaint to the management office.

But for now, it's a wait-and-see situation. I'm having another TLI done, so we can see what's going on with the EPI.


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## Karen519

*LifeofRiley*

LifeofRiley

Praying for Gunner and you.
What is EPI?


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## RedDogs

Did she help you come up with management/training plans to decrease the possibilities of any outbursts on walks? Things to do to decrease the SA or his general anxiety? Did she refer you to a vet specializing in behavior?


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## LifeOfRiley

Karen519 said:


> LifeofRiley
> 
> Praying for Gunner and you.
> What is EPI?


Thank you.
It's Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency. Basically the pancreas, on its own, doesn't produce the enzymes needed to break down and absorb nutrients from food. It literally goes right through them. It's a vicious disease. If treatment fails, the dog will actually starve to death.
It's all too common in GSDs, but it's not widely understood because virtually every single case is different. There's a study underway at Texas A&M, where they're hoping to gain more insight. Hopefully they will. 



RedDogs said:


> Did she help you come up with management/training plans to decrease the possibilities of any outbursts on walks? Things to do to decrease the SA or his general anxiety?


She gave me quite a few management/training ideas. Nothing new. Not that they aren't good ideas - they are. It's just nothing we haven't already been doing or at least trying. Like she said, when it comes to management and training, there are only so many things you CAN do. There's no magic bullet. There's nothing revolutionary out there that no one has thought of until now. It's pretty much the standard, tried and true stuff, and if that fails, you're back to square one.


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## LifeOfRiley

GOD... how long does it take for thyroid results to come back?! I wanted the sample sent to Dr. Dodds, and I'm sure she's quite busy, but they're killin' me here!
Just called the vet a while ago -- they don't have the TLI results back yet, either. They're hoping to have word on both by tomorrow.
:crossfing


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## Karen519

*LifeofRiley*

LifeofRiley


Praying for Gunner and you!!


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## LifeOfRiley

Karen519 said:


> LifeofRiley
> 
> 
> Praying for Gunner and you!!


Thank you!
It's bad - I want the results to come in already, and at the same time, I dread it. I know his thyroid is going to be normal, but I'm hoping anyway.
What I really dread is the TLI results (for his EPI.) His stool wasn't great last night or this morning, so I'm afraid that his numbers are going to be down again.


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## Lisa_and_Willow.

Oh Gunner. I don't know what to say but I will be praying that something can help him.


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## LifeOfRiley

Lisa_and_Willow. said:


> Oh Gunner. I don't know what to say but I will be praying that something can help him.


Thank you, Lisa. I appreciate it!


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## LifeOfRiley

Still no thyroid results, but his TLI results came in and the numbers aren't good.
He's down to .6 (from 1.0 last year.) The vet sort of danced around the issue for a while, said that we can try H2 blockers, but eventually got around to saying that the prognosis is about as grim as it can get. She said that values _below_ 1.0 are, in most cases, end-stage/terminal.
We went over our treatment/management history and she feels that, with the exception of the H2 blockers, we've pretty much done what we can do. She said that they might be worth a try, but she's not very optimistic.

She does feel that this explains his increased anxiety and increasing aggression. It's progressed to a point where extreme nervousness and anxiety is apparently fairly common. She doesn't believe that the move and the new environment is the cause. She said that it may have exacerbated his anxiety, but probably to a small degree and feels that we'd be seeing these changes in him, regardless. I think she was trying to make me feel better. It didn't.
She said that even his separation anxiety right after the move probably wasn't _just_ separation anxiety. It makes sense, now, why the Clomipramine had no effect. 

Now that I know there's a physical reason for his behavior, I have to think about how bad he's actually feeling. We didn't see behavior changes in him _before_ his EPI was diagnosed and treated, when he was literally starving, so how bad must he feel now, to be acting out like he is?

Mom and I will have to sit down tonight and decide where we go from here. I know what the ultimate inevitability will be, but I can't get my head around it right now.


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## Cathy's Gunner

Just caught up on all of this. I'm so sorry the results aren't very good.  We are sending good thoughts your way. :crossfing fingers crossed for better news....


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## BeauShel

MY heart goes out out to you and your Mom. Was hoping for better news. Hug Gunner and tell him how much you love him.


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## Oaklys Dad

Just caught up with this thread myself. I'm so very sorry you did not get a better prognosis from your vet. Give your boy lots of love. You and your family will be in my thoughts.


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## Jo Ellen

I was hoping for something physical that could be fixed. This is sad


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## Merlins mom

Thinking about you and sending good thoughts for you and your mom. I didn't know much about this disease and googled it to find more info. It's just awful and I'm so sorry your Gunner has it. Sending prayers to all of you. {{{{{}}}}}}


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## turtle66

Kisses and hugs to Gunner and his family!


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## LifeOfRiley

Thanks, everyone. I appreciate the kind words. This is not an easy time, to say the least.

I was starting to hope that it _was_ just a behavioral problem. If he were just being a #$%#head, at least that can be "fixed." Yeah, he pushed mom's tolerance to the limit when he went after that little girl, but she was getting over it. I caught her scanning the real estate section in the paper the other day, so I know she's willing to do whatever would be necessary to manage him if it were behavioral. Including another move.

We're going to try the H2 blockers. We should know within a couple days if they're going to work. His stools are still not good, so I'm not real optimistic. Have to try, though.

The only other thing we haven't tried is giving him actual raw pig pancreas as a supplement, which I'm looking into now. Apparently it's very difficult to get. You have to buy it directly from a slaughterhouse, so you need a permit or certificate or something from the USDA or the FDA (don't remember which) At any rate, it involves one of those government agencies that just love their red tape. It takes time and that's something we don't have much of right now. 

I think he's getting annoyed with my constant hugging. He's never been real big on gushy displays of affection and keeps pulling away, giving me that pissy look of his that can only be translated as "Ah geeze, stop your fussing already." That's my boy. 

I'm just hoping against hope that the H2 blockers will work.



Merlins mom said:


> I didn't know much about this disease and googled it to find more info. It's just awful and I'm so sorry your Gunner has it.


It is awful. The bad thing is that about 90% of the pancreas' function has to be gone before they'll "test positive" for EPI. So you're really fighting an uphill battle before you realize that something is wrong. 
And Gunner had everything going for him when he was diagnosed. It came on later in life, which is thought to improve their chances, and he responded very well, and very quickly, to treatment. Those are supposed to be the two biggest factors, and I guess even that isn't always enough.


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## inge

I am really so sorry for this, I was hoping for a behavioral thing...Having seen how well you handled it so far, I had good hopes. Poor Gunner...Sometimes you really wish they could talk and tell you what's wrong with them.


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## zephyr

I am so so sad to read this news. There must be some solace in finally "knowing" what is wrong and understanding what Gunner is going through...but... I am so sorry that the outcome does not look great. I will be thinking of you and your family! {{HUGS}}


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## Kevin's Goldens

that fresh little girl may have startled him. (i always stick up for the dog.) You are doing the right thing by checking things out. I'm sure he will be fine. Keep us posted. Prayers your way.


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## Lilliam

Many hugs to you and Gunner. Having a sick guy at home takes so much out of you and your family.....take care of yourselves too so you can help Gunner.
Many good vibes going your way!!!


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## LifeOfRiley

Well, the H2 blockers don't appear to be working. His stool was almost normal Saturday night, so I let myself have a little hope that it was going to work. By Sunday evening, it was back to being really bad again.

His anxiety seems to be getting worse, too. He'd been doing real well, there for a while, when I'd leave and now he's back to barking and clawing at the baby gate again. He's very distressed when I'm not in sight. He's also getting more obsessed with wanting us to throw a ball for him pretty much non-stop. He doesn't seem to be enjoying it like he always has, though. Now it seems like more of a compulsion. It seems like he's so manic about it because it's a 'relief valve' for him.

I want to have his weight checked again this evening. It looks like he's lost a little bit more. Mom thinks he has, too, but we want to make sure we're not seeing things that aren't there. You can just barely see his ribs again now, so I know it's not our imagination, as much as I wish it were.

If we find that he has lost more weight again, I'll have to make the decision to let him go. We've done everything we can to beat this. If he's not at least holding steady, I'll have to make the decision. I can't watch him suffer if the battle is lost. He's obviously miserable and as much as I want to keep him with me, I can't put him through it. 

I've been trying to find out about getting the raw pancreas, since that's the absolute last resort; the only trick left in the bag. It doesn't look like we'll be able to do it. The only slaughterhouses I can find are at least a couple hours' drive from here, which in itself isn't a problem. What I'm finding out from other owners of EPI dogs, though, is that slaughterhouses sell the pancreas in big, frozen blocks. We couldn't fit a big enough cooler in the car to keep it frozen during the ride home and we'd have nowhere to keep it once we got it home, anyway. We only have a small freezer now, being in the apartment, so I don't see how we could do it. The only consolation is that the odds of it working would be very slim, anyway.

I'm going to spend the day with him, doing all of his favorite things, because I know the news won't be good when he gets on the scale. It's supposed to be rainy for the rest of the morning, so we should be able to take a peaceful hike. Then we're going to play 'hall ball' as long as he wants to and he and Riley can wrestle to their hearts' content.

I still can't get my head around it. As much as I had started to suspect a physical cause, it still hit me out of left field. I suspected it, but at the same time, didn't see this coming.

Thank you all for the prayers and good thoughts. I appreciate it more than you know. 





zephyr said:


> There must be some solace in finally "knowing" what is wrong and understanding what Gunner is going through...


There is. I'm glad we found out before bringing in the endless string of behaviorists and trainers, which would only frustrate him. He knows that he shouldn't be behaving this way, but he can't help it. Trying to fix it would only have added to his anxiety. There is some comfort in knowing that we won't be making matters worse for him. I know that the decision we're left with is the best one for _him_. There is some comfort in that, but it doesn't make it much easier for me.


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## inge

I am so very sorry...I hope this day will still be a 'good' day, both for you and your family and Gunner.


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## LifeOfRiley

inge said:


> I am so very sorry...I hope this day will still be a 'good' day, both for you and your family and Gunner.


Thank you. We're going to make it as good a day as we can.
I'm still hoping that maybe his weigh-in will bring better news than we expect. As long as it's possible, I'm going to hope for it.


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## Laurie

I'm so sorry to hear that Gunner isn't responding to the H2 blockers.....hopefully the scales will provide some positive news however. Enjoy your day with Gunner and give him a big hug from Reno, Austin and Lincoln!!!!


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## Thor0918

I'm so sorry to hear this news. You are in my prayers!


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## Merlins mom

Oh no, I'm so sorry. Sending our thoughts and prayers to you and Gunner. I hope his weigh in shows he's still holding. Sending hugs {{{{{}}}}}.


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## Karen519

*Gunner*

Praying you two have an absolutely wonderful day and praying for a weight gain.

My heart goes out to you and Gunner.


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## amy22

Im so sorry that Gunner isnt doing well. Please let us know what you find out about his weight at the vet...sending hugs and prayers


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## inge

Checking in for news on Gunner...


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## turtle66

Big hugs to Gunner and his family!
It sounds like you are doing an unbelievable great job!!!

All the best,
Heike with dog Lilly and cat Jenny ...hmmm and husband


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## LifeOfRiley

Not good. He's down almost two more pounds from the last weight check (on the 22nd.)

His anxiety is getting crazy. I have scratches all down my arm and my back from him jumping all over me last night. (I'm not complaining - just saying, that's how bad it is.) When he saw me reach for his martingale and the good leash, he knew it meant a car trip and he went completely nuts. I've never seen him like that. He'll hop around a little and whine or even sometimes bark when he knows that he's going in the car, but he was acting like an absolute lunatic last night. Barking like crazy, climbing all over me and practically throwing himself at the door.
He's really in bad shape. He's always been a very high strung guy, but never like this.

I don't know what to do at this point. I'm getting a lot of advice from GSD people who mean nothing but well and who are really going out of their way to figure something out, to pull him through this. Try this, try that, treat him for something he doesn't have... and watch him suffer in the meantime. He's not himself and I know he's miserable.

How do you know when to stop trying? We've been fortunate anytime we've had to make 'the decision.' By the time we were there, there really WAS no decision to be made. It was crystal clear. This time it isn't so clear. So how do you know?


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## inge

I don't know...always when our animals were 'ready' they were old and usually quite ill. There is a point where there is no quality of life for the animal anymore, wheter it be due to age or illness or something else. That's the point, I think...I'm really sorry, this is one of the hardest decisions you'll have to make...


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## Ljilly28

I have tears in my eyes over this thread- it is so unfair for you and your mom. 7 is such an enjoyble age, and having a terrible disease strike just hurts. Wishing you all the possible peace in your heart!


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## Lisa_and_Willow.

My heart is breaking for you. Have you spoken to your vet again?


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## LifeOfRiley

Thanks, guys. This has really been a lousy day...

I just talked to the vet again about an hour ago, Lisa. She was really disheartened to see that his weight dropped again and to hear that the H2 blocker isn't helping.
I asked her about putting him on antibiotics to treat for SIBO, even though the test was negative. She doesn't agree with it, and doesn't think it can do any good, but said we could try it if we want to.
What worries me is that if we DO put him on the antibiotics and it's NOT SIBO (as the test indicates) then we're killing off the _good_ bacteria in his system, which could make matters worse. Though, I don't see where we have much to lose, at this point, by trying it.

She was a little frustrated by some of the suggestions I ran by her. She said she's very glad I'm getting suggestions and doing my homework - said she has little respect for owners who _don't_ take an active role in their pets' care. But she cautioned me and said it frustrates her when clients pin their hopes on something because they read on the internet that it will work, or someone on the internet told them that it works. She said that she'll support 100% whatever I want to do, we'll try whatever I want to try, but she's not optimistic.

I guess I'll have mom pick up the antibiotics tonight and we'll decide what to do.


----------



## Thor0918

Hugs to you. I'm crying knowing what you are going through.


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## Lilliam

Many hugs to you and yours. This is an excruciating time for all of you, but I'm sure you know that you have many people sending you the best possible wishes.


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## Florabora22

This whole thread made me so sad. Poor Gunner, and poor you. 

All I can say is, if you think it's time, then it's time. My biggest regret in life is prolonging Carmella's end because WE weren't ready to say goodbye to her, and she spent several hours suffering as a result.

Gunner is very lucky to have such a great mother who's jumping through hoops to make him feel better. My thoughts are with you and Gunner.


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## Debles

Oh God Deni, I have missed the last part of this thread and didn't realize Gunner had gotten so much worse. I am so very sorry for you and your dear boy.
My heart breaks for you. It is so hard knowing when is the right time and trying everything possible to find an answer/fix.

Gunner's behavior sounds alot like my Gunner's when there is a thunderstorm/fireworks. Total anxiety. My Gunner too acts manic and wants to retrieve constantly.He must feel horrible. I know when I am in alot of pain I feel very anxious too.

They are so stoic and just don't show the pain they are feeling.When we found out how painful My Gunner's glaucoma and uveitis is and how he had displayed nothing, we were dumbfounded.

Sending prayers for you and dear Gunner. Big hugs to you guys.


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## BeauShel

My heart really goes out to you and your Mom on what to do for Gunner. The only thing I can say is you have to ask yourself is "what is his quality of life?" It is so hard to know when is the right time but I always said I would rather do it too soon then to wait to long. And sometimes I wonder if I waited to long with Beau. His last couple of days, he couldnt hardly walk without one of us holding him up and he was such a private dog when going to the bathroom that I know he didnt like to have someone hold him up while doing his business. 
Know that we are with you in spirit in whatever your decision is. (((HUGS)))


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## LifeOfRiley

Thanks, everyone. I appreciate the thoughts and kind words more than you know.

We're going to give the antibiotics a try. If there's the slightest chance that it's SIBO, even though he tested negative, we have to try. Apparently that does happen, so we have nothing to lose and everything to gain right now by giving it a shot. I've been told that we need to do a 30-day course, but I hope I'll have some indication, sooner than that, as to whether they're working. I can't watch him like this for another month. 

Before he was diagnosed a couple years ago, he had lost so much weight that his ribs and hip points were plainly visible. He ran around, acting perfectly normal. He had no idea that he was sick. For him to be acting the way he is now, he must feel horrible and it kills me to see him like this.

God, I wish they could speak our language! It's such an impossible decision. Wait too long and you feel selfish and cruel. Make the decision too quickly and you feel like you're giving up on them. I keep hoping that we'll know and if we're not ready, then it's not time yet. But I'm not real convinced of that, either. I'm beginning to realize that there's no right answer.


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## Karen519

*LifeofRiley*

LifeofRiley

So many times when our dogs are extremely ill, there isn't a clear cut on what we should do.

I agree with BeauShel, Ken and I have always gaged our decision to send our dogs to the Rainbow Bridge on their quality of life, are they suffering and the fact that there really is no hope.,

I will pray that you and Mom will be able to make a decision for Gunner. 

We just have to make the best decision we can, based on how the dog is doing and in an effort to stop them from suffering needlessly.


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## Abbydabbydo

Wow, I am so sorry you are going through this. If you trust your vet, listen to her.


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## amy22

I am so sorry that things are getting so bad...my heart breaks for you and your Mom and Gunner


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## Caesar's Buddy

LifeOfRiley... I just read this entire thread. I am so sorry for you and Gunner. I know the pain you feel. You asked earlier when a person knows when the right time is to say goodbye. I agree with everyone when they talk about the quality of life etc...

To be honest though, *"you will know when the time is right"*... You just have to put Gunners well being above your own. Love him with everything you have. Thoughts and prayers to the both of you...........


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## LifeOfRiley

Caesar's Buddy said:


> You just have to put Gunners well being above your own.


Always. That's a promise I make to my pups the day I bring them home. I'll suffer, I'll go without... whatever it takes. They never will. I'm far from perfect, but I try to keep that promise to the best of my ability.




Abbydabbydo said:


> If you trust your vet, listen to her.


I haven't known her for very long, but I do trust her. As much as I would trust any vet, anyway. (My philosophy with vets is sort of, "Trust. Then verify.") She has more experience with EPI than our previous vets had and she does seem to have a good understanding of it.
I know that she's called another client of hers who breeds GSDs and has dealt with this more than once, to get her thoughts and feelings. That impressed me. A vet calling a breeder to get their thoughts? That's something you don't see everyday.

We're going to give the antibiotics a few days and see what happens. If there's no improvement by Monday, I'm afraid that we'll have to make a decision. I'm waiting for the results from another blood panel - should hear something this morning. 

He hasn't taken any major downturns, but I know he must be feeling lousy. He's not wanting to chase the ball like he had been. He's still manic about wanting me to throw it. If I so much as _move_, he jumps up and brings me a ball. I throw it down the hall for him and after just a couple times, he's taking it up on my bed to take a break. That's not like him. He'd never quit until I end the game. I always used to joke and say that the day he doesn't want to chase something is the day I get worried.


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## Karen519

*LifeofRiley*

LifeOfRiley

Please keep us posted on Gunner and let us know what blood panel results are.
Sounds like you have a knowledgeable and kind vet.

Ken and I made our dogs the same promise you did.


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## LifeOfRiley

Just spoke to the vet - bloodwork is back and everything looks normal.
His phosphorus is a little low (2.2) and his Amylase is a little low (475.) She said that didn't surprise her, given the EPI, and everything else is right within mid-range. So there's nothing else going on. We haven't missed anything.
That's not good. I was really hoping that something would jump out; that there'd be something we missed.
We'll get through the weekend and go from there, I guess.




Karen519 said:


> Ken and I made our dogs the same promise you did.


Oh yeah, they get the whole promise -- For better or worse, in sickness and health... the whole nine yards. (It just sounds so corny that I generally don't go around admitting it.)


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## Lilliam

Thinking about Gunner...how is he doing?


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## BeauShel

Keeping Gunner and you in our prayers.


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## Mad's Mom

I just found and read through this thread, I am so sorry for what you, your mom and Gunner are going through. I wish I had words that could help you, but all I can give you is my thoughts and prayers.

My Mad has renal dysplasia, and although she's doing great, I know that one day she will be very sick with kidney failure, and in a battle we will lose. My biggest fear for the furture is grappling with the decisions you are having to deal with now. 

Please know that you are all in my prayers, and have my support with whatever happens.

Cindy


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## LifeOfRiley

Just wanted to update everyone. He's getting worse and I'm afraid that we'll have to make the decision this afternoon.
The antibiotics aren't working. I took him in for a B12 shot and that didn't help, either.
Last night, he started refusing his food. I boiled some hamburger and rice, made some scrambled eggs (which he normally goes crazy for) tried baby food... he doesn't want any of it. I got him to take a few bites of the scrambled egg, but that was it. Same this morning.
We've tried everything we can try. It's no comfort, but at least I know that we've done absolutely everything we can do.
I'm off to try again and see if I can get him to take at least a little bit of food. If not, I'm going to call the vet and we'll let him go this afternoon. He's miserable and I just can't stand to watch him suffer any longer, when there seems to be no hope.

Thank you all for the thoughts and prayers. They mean more than you know.


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## Debles

Oh Deni, I am so very sorry and so sad for you. I know your heart is breaking. I will be thinking of you and your mom and deal beautiful Gunner all day. God bless you.


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## Noey

I'm sorry he is not getting better, but thankful he has you. Sending you prayers and ((((hugs)))


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## Karen519

*Deni*

Deni

I am so VERY sorry, but I know that you will do what is best for Gunner.


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## Lisa_and_Willow.

no no no. I am so sorry.

Prayers to you and your mom.


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## inge

Oh, I am so very, very sorry...I wish you and your mum a lot of strenght!


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## Karen519

*Gunner*

Did Gunner take any food?


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## Laurie

I'm so sorry to hear about Gunnar.......my heart goes out to you and your mom. There is comfort in knowing you have done all you can for him!!!!

Hugs and kisses to Gunnar from Reno, Austin and Lincoln!!!


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## Lilliam

I am so very sorry...you and your family are all in everyone's thoughts.


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## 58loosy

.'m so sorry for you and mom, when our Ginger got sick we brought her home from vet it was some type of cancer she had lost weight but when she wouldn't eat after a couple of days of having her home we knew it was time, I wouldn't want her to feel that sick. Your in our prayers .


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## LifeOfRiley

Thank you, everyone.

I let him go earlier this afternoon. He still wouldn't take any food and I knew it was time. I spoke to the vet and she felt that we'd done all we could. I couldn't watch him suffer any more, while we kept trying things that weren't working.
We spent some more time with him, telling him what a good boy he is and how much we loved him, then I took him in and helped him to the bridge. He was very calm and seemed tired, like he was trying to tell me that he didn't want to fight anymore - he was ready to go. He went peacefully in my lap. 
If there's any comfort at all, it's in knowing that he was ready and that he's not suffering anymore. I choose to believe that he's with Cooper again, somewhere - wherever they go when they leave us. And knowing the two of them, they're probably raising hell right about now. That image actually makes me smile, so I have to believe it.

Thank you again for all the good thoughts and prayers. They've helped and they mean a lot to both me and my mom.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

Hugs to you...it is never easy...And, believe...


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## Abbydabbydo

I'm so sorry. You have done the hardest, but the best thing for your friend.


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## Laurie

So sorry!!!! RIP Gunner.........

Hugs to you, your mom and Riley!!!


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## Karen519

*Gunner*

LIFEOFRILEY:

I, too, BELIEVE.
Gunner is playing with Cooper and with my dogs and everyone on this forums dogs; you gave Gunner the greatest gift because you loved him so much-you set him free.


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## Mad's Mom

Oh I am sorry, I was so hoping for a miracle for Gunner. It is so very hard, but you rried everything you could, and then did the best for thing for Gunner, and what you needed you to do for him. He knows how loved he is.

My thoughts are with you, your mom and Riley.

Play hard at the Bridge Gunner, you are now healthy and get to enjoy some good play times with all of our loved and missed furbabies.


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## BeauShel

Deni,

I am so sorry for the loss of your Gunner. He is now at peace running and playing with Cooper at the bridge. You can know that you did everything for him and gave him the ultimate gift at the price of your heart breaking. May all your memories help to heal your pain. ((((HUGS))))


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## Cathy's Gunner

We are so sorry for your loss of Gunner. I cried and kissed my Gunner when he came in the house a few minutes ago. I hope you and your family will get some rest and know that he is at peace and playing with Cooper at the bridge. They will be waiting for all of you.


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## Jo Ellen

I'm sad


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## Noey

I'm sad for you as well. Thank you for loving him. (((hugs))) to you.


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## Merlins mom

I'm so sorry. {{{{{{}}}}}} He knows you did everything you could for him. RIP Gunner, run free.


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## turtle66

After reading all your posts over (and over) again (and every time with tears in my eyes), I am SO SURE that you did the right think at the right time. It is still sad, but Gunner did not have to suffer longer! 
Keep him in your heart smiling at you while playing with the ball.

Big hugs!
Heike


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## inge

I'm sorry. You've done everything possible to make him happy, including the very last thing there is...Hugs to you!


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## Oaklys Dad

So very sorry for your loss. Take comfort that you did everything possible for Gunner. He is now pain free.


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## amy22

Deni, I am so very sorry for the loss of Gunner....I am so sad for you and your Mom...Gunner is feeling all better now and he is waiting for you at the Bridge. Keep that in your mind... xxoo


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## Debles

Oh Deni, tears are flowing reading your post about saying goodbye to your Gunner. I gave my Gunner hugs and cried on him. I am sure Riley will help you grieve. Godspeed dear Gunner, dear sweet boy.


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## Karen519

*Gunner*

Deni and Mom:

You gave Gunner everything and showed him how much you loved him at the end.


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## LifeOfRiley

Thank you, everyone.
Last night was rough. The house is so quiet, I can't stand it. Gunner was my hyper guy - always fussing, whining, 'talking', barking. Now that I don't hear his fussing, I know what they mean by "the silence is deafening." I expect to trip over him every time I turn around and he's not there. He was such a presence and now the house seems so empty.

I've been over it a hundred times and I know we did the right thing for him, but it doesn't make it any easier. It wasn't supposed to happen this way. He was supposed to be giving me fits and challenges well into his teens, and I was looking forward to it. I wasn't expecting his health to take a bad turn and blindside us like it did.

Riley seems fine. I was worried that he'd be depressed, or would be looking for Gunner, but he's not. I'm glad that he's doing so well, but at the same time it kind of breaks my heart that he doesn't seem to be missing him. Once last night, when we were going to bed, he looked over to the other side of my bed, like he was trying to figure out where Gunner was, but that's been it. He's playing and eating just like normal. He does get a little upset when we start crying again. He's not used to that and doesn't understand why we're upset. Other than that, he seems to be taking everything in stride. I'm very glad that he IS okay, but like I said, at the same time, it's sad.

I have to pick out a nice urn for Gunner today. We're having him cremated and he'll sit on the bookcase, right next to Cooper.
Sorry for rambling. I think I'm just kind of numb right now.


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## paula bedard

I just found this thread and am sitting here in tears. I'm am so sorry. I hadn't heard of EPI before now, what a horrible disease.
My thoughts are with you, your Mom, and Riley as you mourn Gunner. I hope you are finding comfort in the memories you share.


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## Adriennelane

I am so sorry for your loss of Gunner. I imagine Riley will show his grief in little ways here and there. You're all in my thoughts and prayers.


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## LifeOfRiley

Thank you, Paula. I'd never heard of it either, until a couple years ago. And I didn't know that they could just succumb to it even after it's successfully managed and seems to be under control. I think that's the hardest part. We went through a difficult stretch before he was diagnosed, but we'd since thought that he was out of the woods and would live a long, relatively healthy life. I wasn't expecting this. 




Adriennelane said:


> I imagine Riley will show his grief in little ways here and there.


Yeah, I imagine he will. He's enjoying getting all the attention right now, but I almost expect him to act out a little bit, here and there. I'll be surprised if he doesn't.


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## Adriennelane

LifeOfRiley said:


> Yeah, I imagine he will. He's enjoying getting all the attention right now, but I almost expect him to act out a little bit, here and there. I'll be surprised if he doesn't.


At some point the newness of the attention will wear off, then as you go about every day things, he'll notice his buddy's not there.


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## Lisa_and_Willow.

I can't stop crying so I can only imagine how you feel Deni. You did the best thing for him but being 'right' doesn't make it easy.

I'm deeply sorry for your loss.


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## LifeOfRiley

Lisa_and_Willow. said:


> I can't stop crying so I can only imagine how you feel Deni. You did the best thing for him but being 'right' doesn't make it easy.
> 
> I'm deeply sorry for your loss.


Thank you, Lisa.
I'm going back and forth right now. I'm okay for a little bit, then not so okay again. I'm sure it'll be that way for a while.
I just realized that this will be the first time in my 41 years that I won't have a German Shepherd in the house. Maybe it's fitting. Sort of like the best was saved for last.


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## Loboto-Me

I'm so so sorry for the loss of Gunner. Rest in peace Gunner.


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## coppers-mom

LifeOfRiley said:


> Thank you, Lisa.
> I just realized that this will be the first time in my 41 years that I won't have a German Shepherd in the house. Maybe it's fitting. Sort of like the best was saved for last.


I am sorry for your loss. Boy it is just so hard to deal with and even harder when you are "blindsided". Many hugs coming your way.


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## LifeOfRiley

coppers-mom said:


> I am sorry for your loss. Boy it is just so hard to deal with and even harder when you are "blindsided". Many hugs coming your way.


Thank you. 
No matter what, I don't think we're ever really prepared for it, but we certainly didn't see this coming. A couple weeks ago, he was fine - running around like a maniac - and now he's gone. On one hand, I'm grateful that it happened quickly and he wasn't miserable for very long. But on the other hand, I wanted more time to keep trying.

I've been talking to some GSD people who have had EPI dogs and most of them don't believe it was the EPI that took him. The more I hear, the more I agree. It just doesn't make sense. They feel that what happened with Gunner sounds more like a diffuse cancer. Apparently there are types that don't show up in bloodwork or x-rays and don't show any particularly noticeable symptoms until it's too late. The more I hear about this, the more it fits.
I should have had a necropsy done, but I couldn't stand the thought of it. I want answers, but I couldn't bring myself to have that done.


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## Karen519

*LifeofRiley*

LifeofRiley

We did not have a necropsy done on our Snobear either. I didn't want to do that to him, plus as I told the vet what good would it have really done. Snobear had just made it through Bloat Surgery in March 2009 and Ken and I even remarked how HEALTHY he was and then as Ken said it was if he was hit by a car, with the hemagiosarcoma.

I know the QUIET can be deafening. Snobear was our more noisy one and I think Smooch thought he was coming home for about a week or so, and then she seemed a little down-she had us and we were doting on her, but I know she missed that doggy companionship! Don't think Smooch would have chosen an 8 month old Samoyed pup though-she and Snobear, (Samoyed), were 11 months apart!


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## Thor0918

Deni, you did the right thing. Know that in your heart. Hugs to you!


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## LifeOfRiley

Karen519 said:


> LifeofRiley
> 
> We did not have a necropsy done on our Snobear either. I didn't want to do that to him, plus as I told the vet what good would it have really done. Snobear had just made it through Bloat Surgery in March 2009 and Ken and I even remarked how HEALTHY he was and then as Ken said it was if he was hit by a car, with the hemagiosarcoma.
> 
> I know the QUIET can be deafening. Snobear was our more noisy one and I think Smooch thought he was coming home for about a week or so, and then she seemed a little down-she had us and we were doting on her, but I know she missed that doggy companionship! Don't think Smooch would have chosen an 8 month old Samoyed pup though-she and Snobear, (Samoyed), were 11 months apart!


Yeah, just the thought of a necropsy put images in my head that I don't want there. I understand why people have them done - but I just couldn't. And you're right, it wouldn't do any good, anyway. Knowing exactly what took him wouldn't bring me any comfort. We couldn't find any concrete answers while he was here, so finding them now that he's gone wouldn't make me sleep any better.

The quiet is really bad. I don't think I ever truly realized just how vocal and how fussy Gunner really was. He was very high-maintenence and very demanding and now that he's gone, I don't know what to do with myself half the time.

Riley still seems fine. He's looked for Gunner a couple times, but other than that, he's acting fine. He does seem to be a little more relaxed now, though. Not down, or depressed - he's always ready to play... just more calm. I wonder if Gunner's anxiety (especially near the end since it had gotten so much worse) was taking a toll on Riley? Stressing him out?


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## LifeOfRiley

Thor0918 said:


> Deni, you did the right thing. Know that in your heart. Hugs to you!


 
Thanks. 
I know we did. I think there will always be the 'what ifs' even though I wouldn't do anything differently. I think the second guesses are just part of it and are unavoidable.


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## Dallas Gold

I just saw on your signature you lost your Gunner so I found this thread. I am so sorry for your loss. It is so hard to know when it is really time and it is so hard dealing with the quietness afterwards too. 
HUGS


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## Ranger

I'm so very sorry for your loss. Losing a pet friend is so hard...at least you have Riley to help you through this difficult time. When my family had to put our border collie to sleep in January, Ranger definitely helped ease the pain just by being there with me afterwards as a shoulder to cry on. Take comfort knowing you did everything you could and made the right (however hard it was) decision in the end.


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## LifeOfRiley

Thanks, guys. It'll get easier with time. I know that's about the _only_ thing that makes it easier.



Ranger said:


> I'm so very sorry for your loss. Losing a pet friend is so hard...at least you have Riley to help you through this difficult time.


Oh definitely - Riley is helping so much. I have my moments (and I'm sure I will for quite a while) but it's hard to stay depressed for very long when there's a goofy Golden here wanting my attention. He has a way of snapping me out of it pretty quickly.


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## Karen519

*LifeofRiley*

LifeofRiley

Smooch helped us alot, too. If it weren't for her I would have gone crazy!


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## coppers-mom

LifeOfRiley said:


> Riley still seems fine. He's looked for Gunner a couple times, but other than that, he's acting fine. He does seem to be a little more relaxed now, though. Not down, or depressed - he's always ready to play... just more calm. I wonder if Gunner's anxiety (especially near the end since it had gotten so much worse) was taking a toll on Riley? Stressing him out?


Since whatever took Gunner is not contagious I don't think a necropsy was needed except to find out what was really going on. I've opted out in that case too. I'm just a wuss about it.

I think it is quite possible that Riley was picking up on Gunner's anxiety and mirroring it. Was gunner older or Alpha? Riley might look to him for guidance in that case. 

My last golden was not afraid of storms until I got Copper and he taught Chance to fear them.:doh: My horses mirror each others moods and my mare actually looks to my old gelding to see how to respond to new things. "Should I be okay or scared to death of the balloon" for example - scared so airs above the ground.:doh:


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## LifeOfRiley

coppers-mom said:


> Since whatever took Gunner is not contagious I don't think a necropsy was needed except to find out what was really going on. I've opted out in that case too. I'm just a wuss about it.
> 
> I think it is quite possible that Riley was picking up on Gunner's anxiety and mirroring it. Was gunner older or Alpha? Riley might look to him for guidance in that case.
> 
> My last golden was not afraid of storms until I got Copper and he taught Chance to fear them.:doh: My horses mirror each others moods and my mare actually looks to my old gelding to see how to respond to new things. "Should I be okay or scared to death of the balloon" for example - scared so airs above the ground.:doh:


No, it was definitely nothing contagious. I asked her about that.

Gunner was the older one, but I don't know if either of them were a true alpha. More often than not, Riley was the boss. Riley would back down if Gunner got a little snarky with him, but 9 times out of 10, Gunner deferred to Riley. And Riley never really seemed to look to him for guidance. (He's always been quicker to look to me.) Gunner was terrified of thunderstorms too, but it never rubbed off on Riley. He couldn't care less about them.

I do think his anxiety was affecting Riley, though. Especially near the end, Gunner was wound so tight that he _had_ to be getting Riley worked up, too. And too, Riley probably knew that there was something with wrong with Gunner and it was upsetting him. 
He seems much more relaxed now. He seems happier. It hurts to say it, but he really is acting that way. I think he's perfectly content being an 'only child.'


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## coppers-mom

I must admit that copper would prefer to be an only child too. Some dogs are just that way.

I hope yu an dRiley adjust quickly. As you said, time is really the only thing that helps and it still hurts some after years in my case.


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## LifeOfRiley

coppers-mom said:


> I must admit that copper would prefer to be an only child too. Some dogs are just that way.
> 
> I hope yu an dRiley adjust quickly. As you said, time is really the only thing that helps and it still hurts some after years in my case.


I don't think we ever get over the loss - we just learn to live with it. It'll be three years this month since we lost Cooper (our first Golden) and it still hurts. I still miss him terribly.

I do believe some dogs are just like that. They prefer human companionship to that of other dogs. And I think Riley is one of them. He seems perfectly happy to be the center of my universe and, for a good long time at least, he will be.


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## desilu

I am so sorry for your loss . . .


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## Kevin's Goldens

so sorry. God Bless.


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## Finn's Fan

My condolences on the loss of Gunner. How shocking that his illness was so fast, but perhaps that was somewhat of a blessing for you both. RIP, Gunner, play hard at the Bridge.....


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## Bob Dylan

So very sorry about Gunner, I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Karen519

*Gunner*

LifeofRiley

I agree that we just learn to live with the loss, and I hope you and Riley will help one another through this.

Do you have a picture of Gunner you can post?


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## LifeOfRiley

Karen - Most of my good ones aren't on the computer, but here are a couple...


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## LifeOfRiley

Finn's Fan said:


> My condolences on the loss of Gunner. How shocking that his illness was so fast, but perhaps that was somewhat of a blessing for you both. RIP, Gunner, play hard at the Bridge.....


Thank you. I think it might have been harder for us because it was so sudden and came as such a shock, but I do believe that it was better for him. And for that, I'm truly grateful.


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## Karen519

*Deni*

Gunner is a gorgeous boy!!!


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## inge

That snow picture is really precious! How are you, Deni?


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## coppers-mom

Wow - Gunner was gorgeous.

Again, I am so sorry for your loss. Especially so young and so sudden.


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## LifeOfRiley

Thanks, guys. He really was a handsome guy, wasn't he?




inge said:


> That snow picture is really precious! How are you, Deni?


That was taken after he went diving head first into a snowdrift to retrieve his ball. He loved doing that. Goofy dog. 

I'm okay. It's hard and I miss him terribly, but each day seems to get a little bit better. His urn should be delivered today and I'm not looking forward to that. That'll be rough.


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## goldensmum

Am so sorry for your loss of Gunner


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