# e-collar, now what??



## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Start letting him wear it now when you begin to train. I put them on when we are about to train. As far as age it depends on where he is in his training. Have you seen the DVD that came with the collar. His obedience needs to be sound before you actually use the collar. 
Danny Farmer and Judy Aycock have a good one that covers introduction to the collar. Theirs is basics up through transition and that should get you started. Once you start putting the collar on put it on EVERYTIME YOU TRAIN to help avoid collarwise. Get them use to wearing long before you use. Also a good idea to have the reciever in your hand. Just don't turn the collar on until you are ready to use it.
You will get a lot of negative reactions from those who don't understand how it is used correctly.
I put it on my neck. It gets your attention!!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I used mine on myself before I ever used it on my dogs--I put it on my leg. It just gave me a better idea of what they were experiencing. 

I would suggest that you not try to collar condition on your own. Your pups are still young, but at that point mine are wearing the collar anytime we do any sort of training. This way it just becomes part of the "uniform". Try to find a reputable field pro in your area who will let you come out to day train and have them guide you through the CC process. It is not something you want to mess up as that can have lasting consequences for the rest of your pups' field training program. You also want to ensure that they are CC'd in a way that is consistent with the way the collar will be used in the program you will be following. The way it is used in some obedience programs is significantly different which can be inconsistent with the way you will use it in field training. The GRCA field education committee has put together a great bunch of articles Golden Retriever Club of America - Field and there is one that includes contacts to trainers who are good with Goldens, as well as a networking list by state Golden Retriever Club of America - Field http://www.grca.org/pdf/events/field/brownfieldcontacts_full.pdf

The collar you got is capable of controlling up to three collars. If you get an extra receiver it does give you the convenience of not having to switch the collar between dogs but you do have to be certain that the switch is on the correct dog. One thing I like about it is that I can have three dogs out together and have the tool to use with any of them as need be.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I am no expert, I am cc'ing my first dog now. I just wanted to concur with the previous posters. It is not too young to the them used to wearing it for sure, and they should have had it on a lot in a lot of different situations before you turn it on and use it. 

I would NEVER try to collar condition by ones self for the first time. Especially a golden pup. They may or may not be as tough as some of the labs out there. You want to do it right and make it a positive experience. 

I just got my TT Pro 500 in the mail last night. I need to put it on my dog, and I have my concerns. She is cc'd to obedience, but with a lesser collar, I need to figure out what level to use, etc. She is good in obedience on 1.5, 2 is high. I am sure we will go higher in the field, but for obedience that is her level. I need to figure out what that level is on this collar. I read about trying on ones self... ok... but I am a chicken. I HATE static shocks ok? I will do it but the thought is making my skin crawl.


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## RescuedBill (Apr 27, 2011)

I think you can equate E Collars to chainsaws. I have seen people with the know how do amazing things with a chainsaw. I have also seen people cut off a bodypart. Most people are OK with them, but are just one slip away from a permanent limp. 

I cant tell you testing it out on yourself will give you respect. I got an older TT Sport 60. It has 1/2, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

1/2 not detectable, 1 something, 2 OK could do without that, 3 just ask I will do it, 4 and up dont go there! I accidently hit momentary stimulation years ago when it was on 4 or 5. Holy schnikey!!!!! That nick forever changed me.

The only time I could see 4 or 5 is when there is a disaster, chasing a rabbit onto a busy road and the dogs life is on the line and stopping them is manadatory. 

I had a prior golden that I started into field work with. He was FF and CC by a professional. I still have the collar, but do not field confident in do the CC myself.


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## wynnkid (Feb 28, 2011)

I contacted a hunt club in san diego and will try to get out there to work with them, my days off are pretty sporadic so I'm not sure how often I'll be able to make it.

but has anyone tried or used this?
Total E-Collar Conditioning by Mike Lardy


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

wynnkid said:


> I am to the point where I want to formalize their obedience and make it a standard rather then a fun game where I'm not tough on them at all if they mess up.


Sorry, but I can't quite figure out what you mean here. Are you saying that your pups are having fun with obedience now but that you equate getting serious with being hard on pups when they mess up? You make it sound like you want to take the fun out of it for them, but that can't be what you mean, right?



wynnkid said:


> I then said, before I use the collar on my dogs I would put it on myself and test it out. is this a bad idea?? I'm going to do it regardless but where should put it? my arm? my leg? wrist? what would be the best place to test it on myself. (not going to use it on my neck)


Why wouldn't you put it on your neck? That's what you're going to do with your dogs. If you want to understand how it feels, you should put it on your own neck, figure out the level you'll use with your dogs, and then give the remote to somebody who's going to shock you randomly on and off for fifteen minutes.


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## wynnkid (Feb 28, 2011)

tippy do u have anything to add? or do u just want to bash me for wanting to use an e-collar. if it's the latter please leave thread


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

wynnkid said:


> tippy do u have anything to add? or do u just want to bash me for wanting to use an e-collar. if it's the latter please leave thread


Sorry, but I was 100% serious. It sounded like you were drawing a distinction between reliable behavior from your dog and fun for your dog, and I think the two can be the same. Your original post really made it sound like you were buying the collar in order to take the fun out of training for your dogs, and I don't think it has to be that way, whether or not you use the collar.

And as far as trying the e-collar on yourself, if you really want to know what it's like for the dog, you should put it on your neck and give somebody else the remote. I meant that. Everybody says it doesn't really hurt and that it's totally humane, so why would that be a problem? I think it would give you a good idea of what your dog's experience will be so you can handle the thing more effectively.

Personally, I won't put a piece of equipment on my dog unless I'm willing to put it on myself and use it exactly the same way I plan to use it on him.

I'm not trying to bait you or bash you. My suggestions and questions are serious.


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

Honestly, your neck is probably a good idea. That way you could get a good feel on how it would feel on your dog. When I was at a puppy class, they were showing prongs ( I think that is what it was if I remember correctly) and told us to put it around out wrist. someone decided to put it around their neck and thought it felt very different than the wrist. Just saying it might not be a bad idea.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Tippy, frankly, I think the problem with your comment was the being _shocked randomly for 15 minutes_ bit, because that is not the way collar conditioning is done correctly, as you know. It is done through compliance with known commands. His pups need to begin wearing the collar now so they will be ready for the CC process when it is time to formalize that obedience at the beginning of basics in a month+. Formalizing obedience does not mean taking the fun out. My 7 month old is starting to understand the retrieving is her vocation, not a game, and that distinction is necessary for a hunting dog which is what he wants. If he wants to put it on his leg or arm and work up through the levels as has been suggested already that will be sufficient for him to understand the sensation.


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## wynnkid (Feb 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Sorry, but I was 100% serious. It sounded like you were drawing a distinction between reliable behavior from your dog and fun for your dog, and I think the two can be the same. Your original post really made it sound like you were buying the collar in order to take the fun out of training for your dogs, and I don't think it has to be that way, whether or not you use the collar.
> 
> And as far as trying the e-collar on yourself, if you really want to know what it's like for the dog, you should put it on your neck and give somebody else the remote. I meant that. Everybody says it doesn't really hurt and that it's totally humane, so why would that be a problem? I think it would give you a good idea of what your dog's experience will be so you can handle the thing more effectively.
> 
> ...


please post a video of someone walking you around the block with a piece of leather strapped around your neck attached to a 6' leash


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## wynnkid (Feb 28, 2011)

well back on topic, I ordered mike lardys Total E-Collar Conditioning, and I'm seeking out a professional to help me CC.

I dearly love my pups and want to be fair to them. they get spoiled and receive alot of love. I only wAnt the best for them, and I'm willing to do all I can and within my means give them the best that's avaiable.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

sterregold said:


> Tippy, frankly, I think the problem with your comment was the being _shocked randomly for 15 minutes_ bit, because that is not the way collar conditioning is done correctly, as you know. It is done through compliance with known commands. His pups need to begin wearing the collar now so they will be ready for the CC process when it is time to formalize that obedience at the beginning of basics in a month+. Formalizing obedience does not mean taking the fun out. My 7 month old is starting to understand the retrieving is her vocation, not a game, and that distinction is necessary for a hunting dog which is what he wants. If he wants to put it on his leg or arm and work up through the levels as has been suggested already that will be sufficient for him to understand the sensation.


True, probably. Maybe the phrasing of that was ill-considered. Unfortunately, even if you're conditioning the dog, he doesn't know the shocks are coming at the beginning, so they're essentially random until he starts to figure out what you want. I would definitely replicate that experience so I really understand what I was going to ask from the dog.

And as far as putting it on the leg instead of the neck, what's the point of that? Why not the neck? Are people afraid it will be too unpleasant? All the more reason to do it.

I fully agree that formalizing obedience does not mean taking the fun out. Otherwise, why are you and your dog doing it?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

wynnkid said:


> please post a video of someone walking you around the block with a piece of leather strapped around your neck attached to a 6' leash


LOL, cute. I did put a collar on my neck and had somebody jerk the leash from behind me in order to know what a collar correction was like. Not really fun, and it definitely helped me understand what I was doing when I popped the leash as a correction. Walking around the block wouldn't have taught me anything, so why do it?

If I wanted to use an e-collar, I would absolutely strap it to my neck, set it to the level that I was going to use on the dog, and have somebody else use the remote. It only seems fair.

Actually, if I had access to an e-collar, I'd do it anyway, just to really understand what it's like.

You don't have to like the advice or agree with it, but it's sincere advice. I'm not calling you names or insisting that the e-collar is the wrong choice for you and your dog, but if you are asking the forum for advice on how to figure out what levels to use and how to understand what it really feels like for your dog, I suggest using a level of correction on yourself first before you try it on your dog.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> If I wanted to use an e-collar


I think he wanted to ask someone who is knowledgeable about how get started correctly. And probably more importantly somebody that uses one.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

wynnkid said:


> well back on topic, I ordered mike lardys Total E-Collar Conditioning, and I'm seeking out a professional to help me CC.
> 
> I dearly love my pups and want to be fair to them. they get spoiled and receive alot of love. I only wAnt the best for them, and I'm willing to do all I can and within my means give them the best that's avaiable.


The Lardy video and the Farmer/Aycock one mentioned earlier are both excellent for giving you an idea of the process. The one on one time with a pro will be invaluable for you doing this the first time. There are some excellent amateurs on the left coast, including Glenda Brown who is on the GRCA field education committee. She may be a good person to contact about finding a good pro who accepts day trainers in your area.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Radarsdad said:


> I think he wanted to ask someone who is knowledgeable about how get started correctly. And probably more importantly somebody that uses one.


Maybe, but is an outside perspective on training unwelcome? I'm not forcing him to do anything or throwing around anti-e-collar rhetoric, just making suggestions on how it might be wiser to start on the neck rather than on the leg.

I mean, honestly, what's the point of putting it on your leg? If you want to feel what it's like, then feel what it's like. Wouldn't you get more out of putting it on your neck? Why don't people do that?


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## wynnkid (Feb 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Maybe, but is an outside perspective on training unwelcome? I'm not forcing him to do anything or throwing around anti-e-collar rhetoric, just making suggestions on how it might be wiser to start on the neck rather than on the leg.
> 
> I mean, honestly, what's the point of putting it on your leg? If you want to feel what it's like, then feel what it's like. Wouldn't you get more out of putting it on your neck? Why don't people do that?


Im planning on getting my boys fixed in the future as well, do you suggest I also go to the doctor and have them cut off my testicals so I know exactly what it's like?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

wynnkid said:


> Im planning on getting my boys fixed in the future as well, do you suggest I also go to the doctor and have them cut off my testicals so I know exactly what it's like?


I'm not sure what your point is, as castration is obviously not a training technique. If you don't like my advice, don't take it. No need to get hostile. I'll clear out of your party.


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## wynnkid (Feb 28, 2011)

my point is, I said id try it on myself so I have an idea of how it feels. will it be exactly, no. if I put it on my neck will it be exactly, no. I don't have fur, or a huge layer of skin the can be grabbed. but by wearing it on myself I'll begin to get an idea of what it's like.

I really don't want to argue, I'm not here for that. I just want advice from others who have been where I am now. I could be irresponsible and not do any research and just throw it on my dogs and try it out. but that's not what I want to do. I want to do it right and get the most out of a tool that will help the dogs in the long run.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

wynnkid said:


> my point is, I said id try it on myself so I have an idea of how it feels. will it be exactly, no. if I put it on my neck will it be exactly, no. I don't have fur, or a huge layer of skin the can be grabbed. but by wearing it on myself I'll begin to get an idea of what it's like.
> 
> I really don't want to argue, I'm not here for that. I just want advice from others who have been where I am now. I could be irresponsible and not do any research and just throw it on my dogs and try it out. but that's not what I want to do. I want to do it right and get the most out of a tool that will help the dogs in the long run.


Please forgive me one more comment, and please trust that it's meant in a friendly and positive tone.

The contacts on an e-collar, to my understanding, go down through the fur and are meant to make direct contact with the skin. Though our dogs may generally be more stoic than we are, they are not really getting protection because of their fur or because their skin is looser than ours. It's contacts on skin for both of us.

The hesitation to use it on yourself is kind of my point. Does the thought make you uncomfortable because it's such a sensitive area? Using it on yourself might give you a better idea of exactly how it feels to your dog. That's all. I'm not saying it in order to make you feel bad or to argue that e-collars are inhumane or to try to convince you not to use it. I'm saying it because I think it's a good idea as a trainer to know what a correction feels like before you give it to your dog. It helps you get into your dog's head better, and that's a good thing.

But I'm seriously gone this time. Happy training!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> If I wanted to use an e-collar


I think he wanted to ask someone who is knowledgeable about how get started correctly. And probably more importantly somebody that uses one.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

wynnkid said:


> so after reading alot of threads and seeing what everyone suggests I decided to go out and buy an e-collar.
> 
> I went with the TT pro 500. I wanted to give my pups the best.
> 
> ...


That's way too early. 4 months minimum. Follow a proven program that is geared for this type of conditioning, and follow it closely.





 
EvanG


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## wynnkid (Feb 28, 2011)

Evan you're confusing me, they're over 4 months. they turned 4 on may 8th which makes them 18.5 weeks now.

if 4 is the min, what is a good age? should I wait till 5 or 6 months? I'm not in a rush I don't want to use it if they're not ready.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

It took a few beers but I finally used the collar on myself a while back 
I put it around my calf and started at a one (I also have a TT 500). Got up to a 3 high which is the highest I have ever used on my dogs. 
1 low I could not feel. 1 medium & high felt like a bug crawling on me. 2 got my attention. I could not feel a difference between two low and medium. Three was a different level altogether and very uncomfortable.
I must say the sensation was NOT what I expected. It wasn't like a static shock, it wasn't hot, it wasn't like touching the hotwire fence, it wasn't like biting on a fork. It actually felt like some little animal with sharp teeth gnawing on me. The instant it stopped the sensation was gone, nothing was lingering. It honestly was not necessarily painful, just VERY uncomfortable. 
As far as putting it on your arm, leg, neck, whatever. I really don't think it would matter one bit. Each species is more or less sensitive in certain areas of the body because of how they communicate and where their nerves are most concentrated. For humans it is the lips, fingertips, etc. Dogs don't even have lips  So just because we associate the neck being more sensitive (mainly b/c it is where people are vulnerable to being choked and we've been ingrained with that throughout our lives), doesn't mean a dog is just as sensitive there. In my opinion dogs are NOT nearly as sensitive on their necks as humans are, evidenced by the trillions of dogs who happily drag their owners down the street on their walks. We simply couldn't do it, and dogs do that with ease, voluntarily. So anyways there's my take on it.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

wynnkid said:


> Evan you're confusing me, they're over 4 months. they turned 4 on may 8th which makes them 18.5 weeks now.
> 
> if 4 is the min, what is a good age? should I wait till 5 or 6 months? I'm not in a rush I don't want to use it if they're not ready.


It isn't so much about age as it is progression in the training process. When you see the Lardy video you'll get an idea of "where" the pup should be at training wise, before you start to collar condition. Here heel Sit and whistle sit (all performed on lead) need to be solid prior to conditioning. That is the foundation that is needed to build upon. 

At 18 weeks I would be using a conventional training collar, lead/check cord and heeling stick, with the pup wearing an inactive E-collar.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

wynnkid said:


> Evan you're confusing me, they're over 4 months. they turned 4 on may 8th which makes them 18.5 weeks now.
> 
> if 4 is the min, what is a good age? should I wait till 5 or 6 months? I'm not in a rush I don't want to use it if they're not ready.


What I'm attempting to do, with some failed attempt at humor, is to erase the prevalent assumption that it's a matter of age. Age, at best, is only a guideline, and 4 months is not an automatic marker that any pup is now ready for e-collar work. It's just a time to assess them. Some aren't ready at 6 months.

Rather than think in terms of old enough or young enough, think in terms of mature enough. There is an understandable tendency to seek a timeline/formula for dogs, and they don't quite work like that. The best we can do is to establish general guidelines for when to do what.

EvanG


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

sterregold said:


> Tippy, frankly, I think the problem with your comment was the being _shocked randomly for 15 minutes_ bit, because that is not the way collar conditioning is done correctly, as you know. It is done through compliance with known commands. His pups need to begin wearing the collar now so they will be ready for the CC process when it is time to formalize that obedience at the beginning of basics in a month+. Formalizing obedience does not mean taking the fun out. My 7 month old is starting to understand the retrieving is her vocation, not a game, and that distinction is necessary for a hunting dog which is what he wants. If he wants to put it on his leg or arm and work up through the levels as has been suggested already that will be sufficient for him to understand the sensation.


Kind off thread topic...for a moment..

Shelly I want to come train with you!  Gabby is the same age as your pup, I am SURE not as far along but it would be fun to train with someone who has a pup the same age. Ok there are other reasons I want to train with you but the puppy part I think would be fun!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

If you are set on this course for 18 week olds Ace and Deuce, then I hope you work with a pro. Maybe I misunderstood and you are an experienced trainer? If not, but if you are set on e collars for the young puppies, skillful CC seems only humane.


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## wynnkid (Feb 28, 2011)

evan and the rest of you thank you for clearing the age thing up. yes they are over 4 months however I do not think they are quite ready for it. 

they're obedience needs more work and they need to mature a little more. I'll wait for lardys DVD to come and find some help from a pro because I am inexperienced as a trainer.

I understand now that you're saying 4 months is the bare min and not the age that all pups are ready


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

I would still put the collar on when I train the obedience even when I took him on a walk. Mine will start wearing the collar at about 13 weeks. I am going by Bill Hillmanns puppy training DVD. Then transition into Danny Farmer/Judy Aycock

*I DID NOT SAY I WILL USE THE COLLAR AT 18WEEKS I JUST SAID WEAR IT!!!*

For those who don't use them.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Radarsdad said:


> I would still put the collar on when I train the obedience even when I took him on a walk. Mine will start wearing the collar at about 13 weeks. I am going by Bill Hillmanns puppy training DVD. Then transition into Danny Farmer/Judy Aycock
> 
> *I DID NOT SAY I WILL USE THE COLLAR AT 18WEEKS I JUST SAID WEAR IT!!!*
> 
> For those who don't use them.


Concur! Bonnie has been wearing my old non-EXP one that I use a a dummy collar, not turned on, whenever we do obedience or retrieving since she was about 4 months old. I am just starting CC with her now as we move through the steps in our program, and will be moving on to pile work once it is done.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

I was less than regimented with Radar about working with the collar on and believe me it came back to bite me. This time I am going to train myself to put that collar on *EVERY* time i train.
Wynnkid you cost me 500 bucks!! After reading all these posts and others I ordered a TT500 to replace my Dogtra 3502 NCP.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Yeah but it's a nicer collar. It'll match up nicely with the new Weatherby.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

To the OP, I know you previously looked into Bill Quinn's beginning retriever class. (I'm actually taking the class right now with Jack.) He is an experienced trainer and pretty reasonably priced for individual sessions. He's about an hour from SD, but IMO it's worth the drive. It may be worth contacting him for some assistance since he's semi-local. I would agree that a relative newbie needs assistance before taking on CC. I would never feel comfortable doing that on my own at this point.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> Yeah but it's a nicer collar. It'll match up nicely with the new Weatherby.


I read your comment also. So you had a hand in it! 
Training with Dan i have watched how they use their TT's and it does make sense the way they have the buttons laid out. It allows more flexibility in your corrections without full constant or just nick. I can see how that is more versatile than the my Dogtra. The low constant would be useful. By the way the Weatherby hasn't missed yet.


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## wynnkid (Feb 28, 2011)

goldenjack, thanks for reminding me about bill.

looks like I can do single hour sessions for $35 each. I'll talk to him and see how many sessions it'll take and go from there. it's a bit of a drive, but it'll be well worth it. I do have to wait till I think my boys are ready, as of right now they are not.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

It might not be a bad idea to meet with him to check in to see how you're doing with your training so far anyway. We were planning to do occasional sessions with him before I signed up for the class. In hindsight I wish I had started Jack earlier, there are actually puppies in our class that are as young as 5 months (but we don't do any e-collar work in this class) and they're doing as well as the older dogs.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

I prefer not to go younger than six months and most of the Ecollar manufacturers agree. While it's a matter of maturity, not age, I've yet to come across a dog that isn't mature enough at six months. 

Just so I’m clear; it looks as if you just want to use the Ecollar for OB and not for field work. Is that an accurate assumption?


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Why wouldn't you put it on your neck? That's what you're going to do with your dogs. If you want to understand how it feels, you should put it on your own neck




The only difference between putting it on your neck and putting it on your hand or your arm is the level at which you'll first feel the stim. 




tippykayak said:


> figure out the level you'll use with your dogs, and then give the remote to somebody who's going to shock you randomly on and off for fifteen minutes.


 
The level that the dog feels has NOTHING to do with the level that you'll feel. One of my dogs when at rest, feels a 4 (out of 127 levels). I don't know any human who can feel that. I know another who first feels a 67. I don't know many humans who don't think that "hurts like hell." 

As to _"shock[ing] you randomly on and off for fifteen minutes"_ This seems to me to be intentionally misleading! That's not how Ecollar training is done. This has absolutely no relation to Ecollars or Ecollar training.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Unfortunately, even if you're conditioning the dog, he doesn't know the shocks are coming at the beginning, so they're essentially random until he starts to figure out what you want. I would definitely replicate that experience so I really understand what I was going to ask from the dog.




_"The shocks"_ you refer to needn't be anything more than minor discomfort. Based on what dogs do when they feel them I'd say it's no more disconcerting than the bite of a single flea; so it's not a very big deal to the dog. At the same time that the stim is delivered, he's guided into the desired behavior so they quickly figure out how to control it. This is detailed in my article on the recall on this forum that can be seen here. http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-training/94724-teaching-recall-ecollar.html


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> If I wanted to use an e-collar, I would absolutely strap it to my neck, set it to the level that I was going to use on the dog, and have somebody else use the remote. It only seems fair.




If you did it at the level that one of my dogs first feels, you'd not feel a thing. What would be the point? 




tippykayak said:


> Actually, if I had access to an e-collar, I'd do it anyway, just to really understand what it's like.


 
Putting it on your neck isn't going to give you any more (or less) insight than putting it on your arm. But it's much less convenient.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> The contacts on an e-collar, to my understanding, go down through the fur and are meant to make direct contact with the skin. Though our dogs may generally be more stoic than we are, they are not really getting protection because of their fur or because their skin is looser than ours. It's contacts on skin for both of us.




This is correct. But you conveniently manage to ignore the next pertinent point. That is the many differences between a dog's neck and ours. First and obvious is the thickness and toughness of the skin there. That translates into resistance. Dogs when they're young, bite each other on the neck all the time. Those needle sharp puppy teeth would easily penetrate our skin and cause significant pain. Yet when puppies do this to one another there's rarely any complaints. 

Then there is the relative conductivity of our skin when compared to a dog's. We perspire through our skin and when we do various kinds of salt are brought to the surface. The liquid evaporates but leaves the salt behind. These greatly increase the conductivity of our skin. Since dogs don't perspire they don't have these salts increasing the conductivity.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Radarsdad said:


> I read your comment also. So you had a hand in it! Training with Dan i have watched how they use their TT's and it does make sense the way they have the buttons laid out. It allows more flexibility in your corrections without full constant or just nick. I can see how that is more versatile than the my Dogtra. The low constant would be useful. By the way the Weatherby hasn't missed yet.


Can you explain how the TT is more versatile than the Dogtra? I used to use nothing but TT but now I've switched over to Dogtra because they have more levels and they allow use of the Guidance System.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> The only difference between putting it on your neck and putting it on your hand or your arm is the level at which you'll first feel the stim.


Do you disagree with the earlier assertions by others that human discomfort is significantly different on the neck and on the arm?



Lou Castle said:


> The level that the dog feels has NOTHING to do with the level that you'll feel. One of my dogs when at rest, feels a 4 (out of 127 levels). I don't know any human who can feel that. I know another who first feels a 67. I don't know many humans who don't think that "hurts like hell."


So you'r saying that you use a setting on your dog that if you put it on yourself would "hurt like hell?"

What I would personally do is put it on myself and use exactly the process I would use to learn the level I was going to use on the dog, and I would give the remote to somebody else so I wasn't in control of the shocks.



Lou Castle said:


> As to _"shock[ing] you randomly on and off for fifteen minutes"_ This seems to me to be intentionally misleading! That's not how Ecollar training is done. This has absolutely no relation to Ecollars or Ecollar training.


Why not? When a dog first get an e-collar put on him, he has no idea what it does. He has no idea about the relationship between his own actions and the turning on and off of the stim. He has to figure that out. Giving the remote to somebody else to use essentially at random (or to get you to figure out what they want) is closest to the experience you're going to create for the dog.

I seem to recall a description of a seminar on your website in which you do exactly this to a volunteer in order to demonstrate how e-collar teaching isn't traumatic. So why are you against it?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> If you did it at the level that one of my dogs first feels, you'd not feel a thing. What would be the point?


And if I used it at the level you use on your other dog, apparently I'd cry out in pain. I'd say there's a point there. I would try to find the effective level on myself.



Lou Castle said:


> Putting it on your neck isn't going to give you any more (or less) insight than putting it on your arm. But it's much less convenient.


I said what I would do. A stim to my arm would, for me, be pretty different than a stim to my neck, so if I believed that what I was doing to my dog was simply "uncomfortable" and not inhumane at all, I wouldn't have a problem putting it on my neck.

Let's also remember that the levels you advocate working with (the lowest a dog reacts to) and the levels being discussed here for correction are probably significantly different, no?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> This is correct. But you conveniently manage to ignore the next pertinent point. That is the many differences between a dog's neck and ours. First and obvious is the thickness and toughness of the skin there. That translates into resistance. Dogs when they're young, bite each other on the neck all the time. Those needle sharp puppy teeth would easily penetrate our skin and cause significant pain. Yet when puppies do this to one another there's rarely any complaints.


Fur provides significant protection from the teeth, and even so, puppies do occasionally nick each other, particularly on hairless spots like the nose or mouth. But neither of us is posting any concrete, quantified information on skin toughness here, so I'll concede, for the sake of argument, that a dog's skin is significantly tougher than a human's in its resistance to electricity.

So why not start out by having a friend find out the effective level on you by following the protocol you're going to use on the dog?



Lou Castle said:


> Then there is the relative conductivity of our skin when compared to a dog's. We perspire through our skin and when we do various kinds of salt are brought to the surface. The liquid evaporates but leaves the salt behind. These greatly increase the conductivity of our skin. Since dogs don't perspire they don't have these salts increasing the conductivity. [/FONT][/SIZE]


Fair enough. So why not try what I suggested and use the e-collar to find out the effective level on your own neck?

However, if resistance is truly that big a factor, does that mean that a wet dog feels a significantly stronger shock than when he's dry? So if you found a level with a dry dog and then took him swimming, are you inadvertently shocking (stimming, nicking, causing mild discomfort, whatever you want to call it) him harder than you mean to? And is the level of stim varying significantly based on how clean and dry the dog is? I thought a consistent claim in the e-collar community is that conductivity factors didn't provide a significant variation in voltage. In fact, I believe you claim this on your own website.

So which is it?


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Didn't you TWICE tell us that you were leaving this thread? Yet, here you are again. 




tippykayak said:


> Do you disagree with the earlier assertions by others that human discomfort is significantly different on the neck and on the arm?


I don't recall seeing anyone say that. Can you show us the post? I've said that the difference is that one feels the stim at a lower level on the neck. 

Earlier I wrote,


> One of my dogs when at rest, feels a 4 (out of 127 levels). I don't know any human who can feel that. I know another who first feels a 67. I don't know many humans who don't think that "hurts like hell."


 




tippykayak said:


> So you'r saying that you use a setting on your dog that if you put it on yourself would "hurt like hell?"


It seems clear to me that what I'm saying is that there's no correlation between the level of stim that a dog first feels and the level of stim that a human first feels. If I set it on the level that one of my dogs first feels, I'd not feel a thing. I don't feel that Ecollar until it gets into the 20's (out of 127 levels). If I set it to what the second dog feels, it would _"hurt like hell."_ and so I'd do what I've done to several thousand people and to over 3,000 dogs. Put the Ecollar on them and starting from zero, turn it up until they feel it. That's the level where the basic OB work is done. (details of this are on my site). 




tippykayak said:


> What I would personally do is put it on myself and use exactly the process I would use to learn the level I was going to use on the dog, and I would give the remote to somebody else so I wasn't in control of the shocks.


That's exactly what I do with all of my clients and many people who attend my seminars. I've trained several people to do several things with the Ecollar. 

Earlier I wrote,


> As to _"shock[ing] you randomly on and off for fifteen minutes"_ This seems to me to be intentionally misleading! That's not how Ecollar training is done. This has absolutely no relation to Ecollars or Ecollar training.


 




tippykayak said:


> Why not?


It seems obvious. A dog is not randomly shocked _"on and off for fifteen minutes."_ 





tippykayak said:


> I seem to recall a description of a seminar on your website in which you do exactly this to a volunteer in order to demonstrate how e-collar teaching isn't traumatic. So why are you against it?


The volunteer wasn't _"randomly shocked on and off for fifteen minutes."_ Seems obvious to me.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Earlier you wrote,


> If I wanted to use an e-collar, I would absolutely strap it to my neck, set it to the level that I was going to use on the dog, and have somebody else use the remote. It only seems fair.


 
And I responded,


> If you did it at the level that one of my dogs first feels, you'd not feel a thing. What would be the point?





> tippykayak said:
> 
> 
> > And if I used it at the level you use on your other dog, apparently I'd cry out in pain. I'd say there's a point there. I would try to find the effective level on myself.
> ...


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Earlier I wrote,


> This is correct. But you conveniently manage to ignore the next pertinent point. That is the many differences between a dog's neck and ours. First and obvious is the thickness and toughness of the skin there. That translates into resistance. Dogs when they're young, bite each other on the neck all the time. Those needle sharp puppy teeth would easily penetrate our skin and cause significant pain. Yet when puppies do this to one another there's rarely any complaints.


 




tippykayak said:


> Fur provides significant protection from the teeth


Fur provides protection from the penetration of the teeth but if they're long enough they'll still penetrate through it and make contact with the skin. 




tippykayak said:


> But neither of us is posting any concrete, quantified information on skin toughness here


Some things are common knowledge. 




tippykayak said:


> so I'll concede, for the sake of argument, that a dog's skin is significantly tougher than a human's in its resistance to electricity.


 

Some are tougher and some are not so tough. That's one reason that Ecollars come with a range of levels on them. 




tippykayak said:


> So why not start out by having a friend find out the effective level on you by following the protocol you're going to use on the dog?


That's exactly what I do. But that's NOT what you've advocated doing. Rather you want the OP to find the level that his dog feels and put it on his neck AT THAT LEVEL. You wrote, _"figure out the level you'll use with your dogs, and then give the remote to somebody ... "_ As I've said it may be so low that he doesn’t feel it or it may be so high that it hurts like hell. NEITHER case will demonstrate anything that's useful. 

NOW you suggest using the same protocol as is used on the dog but it's not what you've previously said should be done. 





tippykayak said:


> However, if resistance is truly that big a factor, does that mean that a wet dog feels a significantly stronger shock than when he's dry?


Some people report this change, some report no change. It seems to vary with the dog. And so I suggest that if the dog is wet that the user lower the stim level a bit and find out what the case is with the dog. But the difference has never been described as "significant." On the TT's it might be the difference between a medium and a low. On the Dogtras it might be a couple of points. 





tippykayak said:


> I thought a consistent claim in the e-collar community is that conductivity factors didn't provide a significant variation in voltage. In fact, I believe you claim this on your own website.


I’m sorry but your question makes little sense. First, please show me where my website says what you're claiming it does. I don't recall saying anything of the kind there. Second, some brands of Ecollar change stim levels by voltage, some by pulse rate, some by a combination of the two and some by other methods. So your question makes no sense. Voltage varies, pet Ohm's law, with resistance. Third, the numbers make no difference. The only thing that counts is what the dog feels and how he perceives it.


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## marsh mop (Mar 13, 2009)

You guys are getting old. This is the GRF HUNT AND FIELD area. Tippykayak does not like e-collars, I think thats great. It is clear the OP has a collar and intends to use it in the proper way and I think thats great.
Mr. Castle I think you should have note that in the first post the OP has said he is working Evan Gs' program. That should have made it very clear that he wants to do field work if you know FIELD training programs.
Both of you need to PLEASE go someplace else to fight.
I am here for good stories about some of our dogs IN THE FIELD! Like, Fisher, Titomonster, Jack, Bon Bon, Slater and others.
Jim


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

They got old a long time ago. They either need to get married or get their own forum. Neither one in my opinion knows how to correctly train with an ecollar or how to use it right. Worst hijack of a thread I have ever seen.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> That's exactly what I do. But that's NOT what you've advocated doing. Rather you want the OP to find the level that his dog feels and put it on his neck AT THAT LEVEL. You wrote, _"figure out the level you'll use with your dogs, and then give the remote to somebody ... "_ As I've said it may be so low that he doesn’t feel it or it may be so high that it hurts like hell. NEITHER case will demonstrate anything that's useful.
> 
> NOW you suggest using the same protocol as is used on the dog but it's not what you've previously said should be done.


Now we're in agreement. Rather than use the actual setting you'd use on the dog, use the technique to find the effective setting on yourself. That's a far better idea than my original suggestion.



Lou Castle said:


> Some people report this change, some report no change. It seems to vary with the dog. And so I suggest that if the dog is wet that the user lower the stim level a bit and find out what the case is with the dog. But the difference has never been described as "significant." On the TT's it might be the difference between a medium and a low. On the Dogtras it might be a couple of points.


So conductivity causes the difference between an appropriate setting on a dog and significant pain on a human, but it's a much smaller difference when the collar stays on the dog's neck? I can buy that as possible.




Lou Castle said:


> First, please show me where my website says what you're claiming it does. I don't recall saying anything of the kind there.


I went back and you're totally right. I misread something in haste.



Lou Castle said:


> Second, some brands of Ecollar change stim levels by voltage, some by pulse rate, some by a combination of the two and some by other methods. So your question makes no sense. Voltage varies, pet Ohm's law, with resistance. Third, the numbers make no difference. The only thing that counts is what the dog feels and how he perceives it.


Yes, voltage varies with resistance, and resistance is a measurement of conductivity (specifically, of opposition to current). So when you change the conductivity of the surface, you change the resistance and thus the amount of voltage. That's the scientific premise behind the idea that the collar might be passing more voltage over a human's skin than a dog's.

So, do big changes in conductivity cause big changes in voltage and thus in "what the dog feels and how he perceives it," the only important factor here? Your comments about human skin appear to say "yes," but your comments about the precision of using the lowest possible level of stim appear to say "no." I'd like to know which it is.

The only other logical possibility is that you're claiming that dog skin wet vs. dry is a much smaller difference in resistance than dog skin vs. human skin. I suppose that's possible too. I just want some clarification.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Radarsdad said:


> They got old a long time ago. They either need to get married or get their own forum. Neither one in my opinion knows how to correctly train with an ecollar or how to use it right. Worst hijack of a thread I have ever seen.


Pretty much everything you've said is true (except that I'm not going to marry Lou). I don't know how to correctly train with an e-collar. The difference is that I've never claimed to.

And you're also right that we've hijacked a thread that has a meaningful purpose to the OP. I do believe that it's a fair suggestion to try CC on yourself so you can understand what your dog feels, but beyond that, I have nothing to offer the OP.

I'm done. Lou and I can argue elsewhere if he's so inclined.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

marsh mop said:


> Tippykayak does not like e-collars, I think thats great.


For clarification, I don't dislike e-collars. They're a piece of equipment. I dislike their misuse and offered an unorthodox and apparently unpopular suggestion to help people prevent misuse. My original suggestion was poorly worded but a sincere piece of advice about how I would personally start with 4-month old puppies and an e-collar if I had decided to use one.


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## marsh mop (Mar 13, 2009)

I don't think any person here would condone misuse of an e-collar. The OP is trying to go about it the right way. You should understand that if he is following Evan G. he has invested a good deal of money to do it the right way and I think he will do just fine.
Jim


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

marsh mop said:


> I don't think any person here would condone misuse of an e-collar. The OP is trying to go about it the right way. You should understand that if he is following Evan G. he has invested a good deal of money to do it the right way and I think he will do just fine.
> Jim


I'm sure you're right. I can't say I can agree with everything I've seen in Evan's videos, but he obviously has great success.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

marsh mop said:


> Mr. Castle I think you should have note that in the first post the OP has said he is working Evan Gs' program. That should have made it very clear that he wants to do field work if you know FIELD training programs.


The OP may in fact be working Evan's program but that is NOT what he said. He wrote, *"I've had a personal trainer working with me on basic obedience *_since I brought them home at 8 weeks, they are *sitting, laying down, coming, retriever, and trying to get them to heel, *been working on heel for the last 3 weeks or so. I am to the point where *I want to formalize their obedience *and make it a standard rather then a fun game where I'm not tough on them at all if they mess up.?"_ [Emphasis Added] 

He mentioned that he had Evan's DVD's but did not say that he was "working EvanG's program." I'll suggest that he put his post in this section of the forum because that is where most of the Ecollar knowledge resides. 

Wynnkid if I've got this wrong please let me know. 




marsh mop said:


> I am here for good stories about some of our dogs IN THE FIELD! Like, Fisher, Titomonster, Jack, Bon Bon, Slater and others.


I don't think that this thread is about _"good stories ..."_ Rather it seems to be someone who is looking for advice on using his Ecollar.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Radarsdad said:


> Neither one in my opinion knows how to correctly train with an ecollar or how to use it right.




Wondering how you come to this conclusion, at least about me? Have you ever seen even a single dog that I've trained? I'd guess not. And I KNOW that the people who have been to my seminars would disagree. I just finished my 51st! and I have another one next month.


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## marsh mop (Mar 13, 2009)

> I'll suggest that he put his post in this section of the forum because that is where most of the Ecollar knowledge resides.


 He did post it in this section of the forum. He is the first post of this thread.
Jim


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## wynnkid (Feb 28, 2011)

I did say I have a personal trainer for obidence. I didn't clarify what my intentions were. I'm not a professional, I'm completely new to dog training.

I want both of my pups to be hunting dogs first and foremost. I may down the road work towards doing some hunt and field trails. so at the beginning I'm teaching my boys obidence and then well move into more hunting related training as they get older and will listen to my commands that I started them on as young pups.


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## marsh mop (Mar 13, 2009)

> I did say I have a personal trainer for obidence. I didn't clarify what my intentions were. I'm not a professional, I'm completely new to dog training.
> 
> I want both of my pups to be hunting dogs first and foremost. I may down the road work towards doing some hunt and field trails. so at the beginning I'm teaching my boys obidence and then well move into more hunting related training as they get older and will listen to my commands that I started them on as young pups.


Good luck to you and your dogs. You can't go wrong with Evan G. or Lardy.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

marsh mop said:


> I don't think any person here would condone misuse of an e-collar. The OP is trying to go about it the right way. You should understand that if he is following Evan G. he has invested a good deal of money to do it the right way and I think he will do just fine.
> Jim


Agreed as long as he stays away from the 52nd "seminar"


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Radarsdad said:


> Agreed as long as he stays away from the 52nd "seminar"


 
So easy to shoot off one's mouth anonymously. 

In any case my next seminar is for SAR folks ONLY. It's for NASAR, the National Association for Search and Rescue. This will be my THIRD seminar for them. They apparently disagree with you. ROFL


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

wynnkid,

Have you watched the Total E-collar Conditioning DVD yet?
Pay close attention to how Mike works basic obedience with the dogs. Watch his footwork, hand work, body position and TIMING. 
You'll also find that we do OB somewhat differently in fieldwork than is used in the obedience ring. While Mike doesn't go into detail on the "why" he's doing things in a particular manner in this DVD, there is a reason. (It's a step in the progression to teaching the dog about lining up for blind retrieves later.)


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## wynnkid (Feb 28, 2011)

swamp no it hasn't come in yet, hope it'll be there when I get home today.

I'll make sure to watch in detail several times


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Hello Lou. 

It's good to see your name here. Folks, Lou is a straight shooter. That sometimes bothers folks. Personally I like his style of communication. He's a good dog man. I hope we can remain open minded.

EvanG


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Thanks for the kind words Evan. I truly appreciate them. When I was growing up my family moved around a lot and I was always the "new kid in the school." Not much has changed. lol


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## wynnkid (Feb 28, 2011)

I just got the CC DVD from Lardy. watched it once and realize I am not nearly close to start CC. If I had to guess I would need at least 2 more months before I even think about doing it. I also will have a professional do it. probably go to bill Quinn as he is somewhat close. 

I'm going to go ahead and watch this DVD about 10 more times and work hard on my pups obidence over the next few months.


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