# Please help - QUICKLY, Indiana especially



## spenser (Jul 22, 2010)

Hi all--

I am trying to track down a breeder in Indiana, located somewhere between Indianapolis and Fort Wayne. Breeder has a English creme sire (co-owned, out of Belgium?) bred with an American golden.

Breeder's first name begins with letter "L".

Long story ... will explain if necessary or helpful. Short version: recently purchased GR from purebredbreeders.com. Transport to take place Aug 11. I don't care about this company, do care about the breeder. 

THANKS!!!!

Best regards


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I am unsure how we'll be able to help with just the information "L"

For what it's worth, if you're still able to cancel your golden retriever 'on order' at purebredbreeders.com, you'll be glad that you did. These companies are a front for a LOT of puppy mills and back yard breeders. If you're sincerely interested in a golden with English lines, we can help you there. But it won't be from a puppy ordering site.

Any breeder worth anything will want to meet you in person, ask you a multitude of questions, and have you come for a visit.


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## spenser (Jul 22, 2010)

Thanks for the quick reply--

The breeder may be an excellent one. He sounded good on the three way conversation.

I believe (of course, I am not a breeder) the pup has excellent conformation. This would be our sixth golden.

Grief makes otherwise intelligent people do really stupid things. I didn't fall in love with the pup from the photo. She just looked like an excellent golden. If I hadn't seen her specifically, I wouldn't have purchased her.

The breeder's first name is Lee (Lee is a man). I don't want to besmirch a breeder's reputation who is a professional, respected breeder. I do not like purebreddreeders.com but this may not be a reflection on the breeder.

You can see the pup at www.purebredbreeders.com. Pup's name is Lola ("Bill's new baby girl" and "My new home is in South Carolina". Any opinions about the pup??

Thanks in advance 

Bill


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Any breeder brokering puppies via that site is NOT what most would consider a reputable breeder.

I think you'll find several people here would advise you against purchasing a dog in this manner.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Really, it is hard to tell from the photo. Honestly, it is more important that you ask this 'breeder' named Lee if he has the official OFA reports on Lola's parent's hips and elbows. I doubt that he does. If he says that he does, get the registered names of the parents and look them up on offa.org to verify the info. They also claim champion bloodlines. I'm curious, since this is a puppy broker website, how far back these champions are... 5-7 generations ago? I doubt it is within the last 2 generations.

Like I said before, it would be wise to get a refund. A well bred conformation pup with 5+ generations of hip/elbow clearances would cost less than the $1750 plus shipping that you're paying.

I understand grief makes things hard, but you might have more grief than you care to have in the future with a puppy from there. Not to mention that she's almost 13 weeks old. You've missed the peak socialization period. If Lee/whomever hasn't exposed her to a variety of things, it's hard to make up for that.


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## Maya's Mom (Apr 13, 2009)

spenser said:


> Thanks for the quick reply--
> 
> The breeder may be an excellent one. He sounded good on the three way conversation.
> 
> ...


I would be extremely skeptical of any breeder that would sell puppies through this site. A good breeder carefully interviews families to make sure their pups find wonderful homes. Good breeders do several health clearances, which are not listed on this pup, so you don't know what the health of her parents (and grandparents) is like. Another red flag for me is the fact that the pup is already 13 weeks. It is best to take a pup home at 8 weeks because they go through a fear period around then that helps them bond to the new owner. The period from 8-13 weeks is extremely important for socialization, so I would want to have my puppy for that period in order to expose her to lots of different stimuli. With my puppy we made sure that she met at least 100 different people in that time period including kids of all ages, people of different heights, gender, races, etc. 
We also exposed her to heave traffic, fire engines, walking on different surfaces, etc. If puppies don't have these kinds of experiences very early on, they can develop fear issues later. 
Also, the amount that they are charging for this puppy is ridiculous. You could 1/2 to 2/3 of that amount and get an 8 week pup from a wonderful breeder who has done all the health clearances and who will be a resource to you for the life of the pup. This "breeder" will be making a huge profit on this pup, which means that your money is going towards unscrupulous breeding practices. I would strongly urge you to reconsider and find a different breeder.


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## Sophie_Mom (Jan 21, 2009)

That website makes me sad - All of those poor little babies needing homes. I'm by no means an expert, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with this sort of arrangement. The good relationship I have with Sophie and Sawyer's breeder is one of the reasons I got both dogs from him. I visited his home, got to know all of his dogs, etc. I have been in touch with him many times since bringing Sawyer home (and throughout the 2 years I've had Sophie as well), and he is always available and willing to help and answer questions. An added bonus - Sophie and Sawyer are always welcome to stay with him for boarding. These website brokers offer none of that.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

OMG, did you see the prices of those pups? That site is just so very sad.


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

I just LOVE how the site is called "Purebred Breeders", yet they sell under their "Designer Dogs" label.... *insert eye-rolling smiley here*

YorkiePoo
MaltiPoo
Schnoodle
Goldendoodle
and the oh so cute... Peekapoo! 

Barf! :yuck::yuck::yuck:


OP, please get your money back ASAP. CarolinaCasey is spot on in both of her posts and this "transaction" will only cause you even more grief in the long run with an unhealthy pup. 

We will gladly help you find a reputable, responsible breeder near you who does all of the proper health clearances (not to mention better looking dogs) prior to breeding, including Hips, Elbows, Eyes and Heart.


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## animallover (Jul 18, 2010)

I will add my 2cents in. We just purchased a golden girl from a local breeder here in Pa. We are dealing with grief and it does make it hard to be logical and realistic. We were only there for about 10 minutes and the breeder said "she already loves you". Of course we took her. We have since found out that she has a congenital under-bite and in the future will have to have oral surgery. She already has a little blister/abrasion in her mouth from her teeth hitting her gums. The breeders contract says one of our options is too get a partial refund to help defray future vet bills for this problem. She will not help. She did offer a full refund if we returned her but we just can't do it. Be careful. This site has so many helpful knowledgeable people. Let them help you before you get into a sad situation. I love my new girl but hate that I helped this breeder who has 6-7 breeding females and litters all the time...


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## spenser (Jul 22, 2010)

Thanks for all of your help--

I NOW do have the breeder's web site and of course the breeder's name. I hesitate to post it since their have been negative comments about any breeder that would use a broker/agent and I do not want to cast ANY aspersions on the breeder. It would appear the breeder is not terribly near any major metro area ...maybe this is why he uses a broker?

Pup's sire is (almost certainly) Master Mace of Cottage Grove Farms. OFAs go way back on the sire side. No info on the dam.

I understand the recommendations given. Now, knowing the breeder's name and company any further checking I can do?

BTW, in the three-way conversation with the breeder, I believe my wife and I prefaced everything with our experience with Goldens, home environment, etc. When we got finished, he said that we answered all of the questions he would have normally insisted upon asking. So nothing sgould be concluded from the fact that he didn't ask these questions, as they were fully answered during our initial comments.

Again, thank you in advance for any additional guidance you can provide.

Best regards--
Bill


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## damita (Jun 4, 2009)

"Pup's sire is (almost certainly) Master Mace of Cottage Grove Farms. OFAs go way back on the sire side. No info on the dam."

Master Mace of Cottage Grove has ONLY an OFA heart clearance and it only a practioner NOT cardiologist as recommended by the Golden Retreiver Club (of both America and Canada). This dog is 6 there is no real reasonthis dog should not have all clearances. I would run quick! and what does "almost certainly" mean? They "think" he is the sire?


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

There is a list of brokers available if anyone ever needs it. I'm just not sure how up to date it is, so I will not post it publicly.

Good Luck with your puppy...

Have you checked k9data.com and confirmed all of the certs. If you have names, Google is your best friend...


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

PLEASE read the info from the golden retriever club of america re: choosing a breeder. http://www.grca.org/allabout/a_find5.html It can save you much heartache ( and money from what that site was quoting you). Also, the sire named above is not on www.k9data.com Certs should be verified and available.... hips, elbows, heart, eyes and many do thyroid also.


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## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

Please read my post "Ode to the Irresponsible Breeder" under Breeders..... might make you reconsider!:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

There is master mace of cottage grove, on k9 data.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

spenser said:


> Thanks for all of your help--
> 
> I NOW do have the breeder's web site and of course the breeder's name. I hesitate to post it since their have been negative comments about any breeder that would use a broker/agent and I do not want to cast ANY aspersions on the breeder. It would appear the breeder is not terribly near any major metro area ...maybe this is why he uses a broker?
> 
> ...


 
I seriously think you are in deep denial here. NO reputable breeder would sell their puppies through any site like this much less over the internet at all. I've read the posts of the people that are totally right - you can dress it up however you want to in your mind but the truth is you're supporting puppy mills and "breeders" that support puppy mills and that's just messed up. 

People so far have tried to be nice but you just don't seem to be getting it so I'll be very honest here and maybe that will get through to you. You might very well be buying huge vet bills in the future, getting a non socialize not well bred pup (think personality/tendencies/the "golden" factor") for a ton of money and you have the right to do that but don't try to make it look pretty and the "breeder" look good because it's just not either of those things.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

goldensrbest said:


> There is master mace of cottage grove, on k9 data.


There sure is. I had copy and pasted the master mace of cottage grove farms that is mentioned above and came up blank. Wonder if they are one and the same.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

That is what i wonder.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=272832

If it is one and the same, I don't think Meadowpond would be very happy...

We've all spoken our peace, why this wouldn't be a pup we would consider. Yes, it is sad- it needs a home. BUT it doesn't have to be your home. Casey was bought from a pet shop. We've lived and learned. My family's next two dogs were rescues, Laura, then Bea. When our family lost Laura in Dec. 08, our hearts were raw. We wanted another golden companion for Casey. That search led us to Bea. What I'm trying to say is- you live and you learn. Let us save YOU from that. Use our experiences and background to help save you some of the problems and bumps we've encountered along the road. 

Could your puppy from this person end up having little to no health issues and live to be 16? Yes, it's possible. However, it's probably more likely that it will be just the opposite. As you know, a dog is a commitment of up to 15 years, hopefully. Why not make your best shot at it by supporting reputable and ethical breeding practices.


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## spenser (Jul 22, 2010)

I am not in deep denial and I think I get it. 

Here is the breeder's web page:

(Deleted By Author)


I cannot speak to the breeder because he is out of town at a dog show.

Bill


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

Mail order puppies. How very said for the animals. I will buy a watch or a camera by mail order/Internet. I will not buy a living animal. I do not believe that any reputable breeder will sell a puppy via Internet.


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## spenser (Jul 22, 2010)

I never said THEY thought he was the sire. I think I said, or meant, that I THINK he is the sire based on what was said and then looking at the web site.

I have no problem with criticism of my decision of buying from a broker. I KNEW BETTER. I was an idiot. I get it.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

I, personally, would never buy a dog without being able to meet in person the breeder - meet the father and mother of the pups - and see the environment in which the dog will be born and whelped. 

As many people here have said, a truly responsible breeder would never sell to anyone sight unseen - and without a very thorough interview. 

Major red flag for me: this dog is "almost certainly" the sire - and there's NO INFORMATION ON THE DAM? Yikes. 

My breeder didn't live very near a big metro centre either - it was worth the long drive to meet the owner of the male and the owner of the female (two hours each way for each person), and the breeder herself (another two hour drive). All were incredibly serious and asked me tough questions - but were thrilled to introduce me to their dogs and supply health records and proof of ancestry to show no in-breeding had been done.

As sad as I feel for the poor pups on this site, I would not buy one - because doing so would only support this "breeder."

ON EDIT: Just saw your post above that it is you who doesn't know much about either the mother or father of the pup. This would concern me just as much - if not more. Don't you want to know who the parents of the pup are and whether they've been healthy and come from a healthy line?


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

spenser said:


> I am not in deep denial and I think I get it.
> 
> Here is the breeder's web page:
> 
> ...


Looking at the website raises more red flags to me. From what I saw, Benny is the only one with a link to pedigree. Although it says they have health clearances, none were listed. There is much talk about "English creme" which is nothing more than a marketing ploy. I don't see that any of the dogs have titles or points listed. Also, the first sentence under goldens raised my eyebrows by stating that goldens are a large breed. The GRCA states goldens are a medium breed dog. So sad to know that so many can put up a nifty looking website and profit from people's gullibility. Believe me, most of us have lived and learned our way around the selection process... t'aint always easy.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Spenser*

Spenser

I checked the paradise site and it says they have been breeding Golden Retr;ievers since 2000 which in my opinion isn't a long time.

I agree with everyone else, I would not go with a mail order puppy and $1750 is a pretty exhorbitant price-they could definitely be a puppy mill.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Do you have the dog? Is she/he a part of your family? Then, yes, hindsight. But from what I think I understand is that you have a deposit on a puppy and don't have the puppy. If that's the case and it's so important to you to do everything you can to have a healthy, happy, correct disposition dog - then get your deposit back and do the things that have been suggested. There is a choosing a golden retriever forum where you could get lists of great breeders and get the dog that you are looking for and worth that 1725 if you're willing to still go that high.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

The web sight names , MISTER, NOT MASTER, MACE OF COTTAGE FARMS.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Here's a link to the pedigree from their site which says Master

http://www.thunderville.com/0_RETRIEVERSPARADISE_V1.0/images/stories/goldens/bennypunkinpedigree.jpg


Dang, but under pictures he's listed as Mister. They don't even know their own dog's name???? UNREAL!!


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Seems master, is dad of mister, i think, look at age.


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## spenser (Jul 22, 2010)

I have asked for written evidence that sire and dam:
--have had hip xrays and have normal evaluations by OFA
--have been examined by a board certified vet. cardiologist, and a copy of his/hers report
--have had their eyes examined by board certifed vet opthamologist within the last 12 months.

I appreciate most of your responses.

For the record, we have rescued two Goldens, and raised 3 GRs (from top-notch) breeders. Of the 3 GRs, one had to be put down at age 6 due to lymphoma. The vet gave him 6 months (after diagnosis) after treatment with the orange kool-aid. Spenser (more on Spenser in a few moments), had a TPLO for a torn ACL incurred during light/moderate exercise. 

My screen name Spenser is in tribute and memory to my best buddy whom we had to put down 2 weeks ago. Too soon to get another dog? This is a personal decision that only the pet owner can answer. Of course, everyone thinks their dog is special and of course I am no different. But there are Goldens that are truly special by objective standards. One of our vets wouldn't let Spenser stay in the kennel...he would take him home. Three vets who treated him and knew him well said that he was one of the brightest dogs they had ever seen in their practice. And what a personality!!

There is so much I could say, but words fail me.


I just heard from the broker who was in touch with the breeder. Per the broker, both the dam and the sire have all clearances as requested above. I will receive the hard copies tomorrow.


Undoing the transaction, not monetarily, is the problem. But let's suppose everything is in order, excluding the spelling mistake on the breeder's web site, do you crush your wife's heart just because it is an Internet pup? 

This is a rhetorical question.

I apologize for taking up anyone's time. Thank you.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Spenser*

SPENSER:

I totally agree with you that it is a personal decision when to get another dog.
My Hubby and I have always gotten another dog shortly after we have had to put one of ours to sleep because we love dogs so much and want to give that love to another.

I am so very sorry for your loss of Spenser and I wish you luck in the next Golden Retriever in your life!


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## Lennap (Jul 9, 2010)

Spenser - 

I am very sorry for you loss. I understand your responses, and respect your decision. Once I decided I was ready for another dog, I wanted it NOW! I applied to rescues, I searched the web, I wanted a dog darnit and I wanted it now! It took me 8 weeks (being a born and raised NY'er I thought that was forever) and the rescue group was stunned at how quickly they got it all done!

But I must ask - if you are committed to this puppy - why are you doing this research now? Unless your deposit is refundable, why bother with the checks now? If your deposit is refundable, and you find something out - will you ask for the money back? I don't think I could - but that's just me.

If your deposti is non refundable - then I suggest you just wait for your girl to arrive, love her, train her, care for her, etc.

I wish you all the best and look forward to many pictures and posts.

Best of Luck,
Lenna


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

I hope you get good responses and proof of all recommended clearances, and that your puppy is happy and healthy.


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## booklady (Mar 3, 2009)

And do be careful - the "Health Guarantee" says towards the bottom:

"If buyer chooses not to continue with the NuVet Plus this guarantee is not valid"!

They provide a phone number where you can order this wonder wafer you are to give once a day.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Karen519 said:


> SPENSER:
> 
> I totally agree with you that it is a personal decision when to get another dog.
> My Hubby and I have always gotten another dog shortly after we have had to put one of ours to sleep because we love dogs so much and want to give that love to another.
> ...


Same here... 

The website for the breeder does seem to be a little commercialized compared to possibly what it should be. And I'm concerned that they produce three different breeds of dogs and seem to be all out producing puppies. <- The best thing to do when on puppy search is to go in person and interview the breeders and judge their practices. I'm not sure if I like any breeder not being upfront with pedigree and health information for people who are interested in their puppies (prior to any sales), even if they are arranging the sales through a broker. It seems fishy.

But if you've already gone through with the sale and the money is nonrefundable... concentrate on the positive at least. You are bringing home a new puppy. And you will love and care for this puppy. And I'm sure you will provide a good home for this puppy. There may be hip, elbow, heart, kidney, cancer problems in this puppy's future. Go into this with your eyes open. Or you might be lucky and you will have a great dog who will share your home for the next fifteen years.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm so sorry for your loss.... many of us have had similar losses and it is never, ever easy. And of course there is no stock answer as to when to get another pup..... even the same person may have different feelings over different losses. The time to get a pup is when YOU ( and your family of course) think the time is right. I so hope and pray that you find all the certifications in order and verifiable. I do think that all of our responses were based in concern..... I think you'll find as a group we all are quite adamant in wanting to educate people looking for pups. Although there is no guarantee about health concerns, clearances do at least stack the deck in favor of avoiding common health issues. Knowing the breeder and their concern and dedication to select breeding and studying of the genetic pool they are using helps to ensure stable temperments, looks, longevity etc. 

I hope that you receive the health certs and get the pup you desire.


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## spenser (Jul 22, 2010)

Lola is at www.purebredbreeders.com "Bill's new baby girl."

I was not looking to buy a puppy. My wife asked me repeatedly to look. I had been to various regional "top-breeder" sites so I generally knew of the breeders. When I was on the site just perusing, I was stopped cold by Lola. No it wasn't love. It was analytical...I thought she was a VERY FINE looking GR, high in conformance to breed standards IMHO. Yes, was only a photo ...

If I cancel the contract, we lose $495. I probably have to make the decision tomorrow. A painful lesson but ok.

Only one poster looked at the photo. But to be very honest, TO ME Lola looked better than a lot of the pups I saw on "top" (?) breeders web sites. Maybe I don't understand conformance but maybe I really do (particularly head structure.) It was an analytical judgement and of course I could be very wrong. For my wife, it was an emotional decision. She loves Lola and she hasn't arrived yet.

Just a great situation all around. She really wants another dog. Pleads with me to look. Ok, I look just to fulfill my promise. Surprise --I see a dog that LOOKS very good (to me) from a breed standpoint. But he can't be a good golden, and he can't be a good breeder because its the internet. Now, analytically I may cancel the purchase. Wonderful! 


Bill


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

booklady said:


> And do be careful - the "Health Guarantee" says towards the bottom:
> 
> "If buyer chooses not to continue with the NuVet Plus this guarantee is not valid"!
> 
> They provide a phone number where you can order this wonder wafer you are to give once a day.


Oh crap... I really didn't want to hear that. NuVet is major junk!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

spenser said:


> Lola is at www.purebredbreeders.com "Bill's new baby girl."
> 
> I was not looking to buy a puppy. My wife asked me repeatedly to look. I had been under various regional "top-breeder" sites so I generally knew of the breeders. When I was on the site just perusing, I was stopped cold by Lola. No it wasn't love. It was analytical...I thought she was a VERY FINE looking GR, high in conformance to breed standards. Yes, was only a photo ...
> 
> ...


For the price they are charging, you could probably eat the deposit and get a dog from a good, serious breeder. Have you contacted the golden retriever club closest to you. THey most often have referrals to breeders in your area which follow the grca ethics. Also, if you put a shout out of where you are, I bet there would be people here who could give you some leads.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Here is a golden club in your area and the puppy referral page. http://www.sgrc.org/puppies.html


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Oh, and here's a golden breeder in SC that I've heard raves about. Check out her site..... you can also see the difference in seeing all the clearance numbers listed with the dogs... easy to verify. http://www.jazzin.com/index.html


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## spenser (Jul 22, 2010)

Thank you for the Jazzin web site. I had not been there before perhaps because my searches were more oriented to European/English creme goldens.

They are beautiful goldens and if I cancel, I/we will certainly contact them.

Thank you.
Bill


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

So sorry for your loss of Spenser. You have gotten a lot of good advice here, so there is no need to repeat it. If you have paid by a credit card, perhaps you have some recourse thru the credit card company to stop payment. Good luck in your endeavors to find the right pup. If you do get out of the contract, there are a lot of wonderful people here willing to help you find the right dog for you. FWIW- run from any breeder who advertises English Cremes.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

I'm coming into this late in the game, but I just wanted to throw out there that you should make sure to ask for OFA elbow clearances, as well. I didn't see them on your list of clearances that you'll be getting from the breeder. Best of luck with your new girl!


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

When you say most I know you refer to me but hey, I'm just trying to help. If I didn't care I wouldn't post and I wouldn't be so blunt to get the point across. I understand grief and I personally would be someone to get another dog soon after well, I got Max because my older dog was slowing down. However, I've learned a lot from being here and what you need to weigh is what's most important here: short term satisfaction or long term. It's great that she looks like the golden you think a golden should look like but that doesn't mean that her personality/socialization/bones/heart/eyes are perfect. You didn't even get to meet this pup. 

I think it's so important to meet the parents, meet the breeders and see how they raise the puppies/the state of their home/property, and meet the puppies. 

I know I was shocked when I was introduced to some puppy mill websites. Though IRL the conditions are horrid and the "breeders" are complete scum of the earth, their websites are of puppies playing in fields of wildflowers and playing with children and they always claim to be a family business and if you don't know better, you believe it. The people who run these places over the phone seem to be the nicest, most caring people you've ever talked to and very concerned about their dogs going to great homes. 

If you buy from a breeder like that and get a puppy that's spent it's life in a cage with no human contact or from lines that have unchecked medical issues you're going to pay for that in the long run. Your wife is going to be expecting another loving, outgoing, healthy ball of fluff and you need to realize that you are not stacking the odds in your favor if you buy from an unknown breeder off a "broker" website.

It's your choice - you need to make it and even if you don't want to listen to a word I have to say, listen to what the others have to say. You do what you think is right and I hope it all works out for you - no one wants you to be another horror story of a puppy from an incompetent breeder. But you're right, everything might work out great too. Only time will tell but you need to understand that you're taking extra risks with a website/breeder like this. If you get your girl everyone will ooh and ahh over her and if you decide to look elsewhere a great many people will help you with that too.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Phillyfisher said:


> FWIW- run from any breeder who advertises English Cremes.


Just curious - why? (I've actually never heard of English Cremes in my entire lifetime of owning and loving Goldens. Is it a "false" variation of the breed that breeders try to pass off as purebred?)


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## spenser (Jul 22, 2010)

My understanding (obviously extremely limited) is that the best way of looking at the question of English creme vs American GR is that both conform to the AKC breed standard. Generally the European/English line has a broader head, wider and shorter muzzle, eyes wider set and rounder and generally tending to be stockier than the American line of GRs which tend to slightly longer, lankier and not as broad in the forehead and muzzle. A lot of people don't like or don't use the term English creme but it is a somewhat convenient way of referring to goldens that are as I described and a lighter color than most GRs in the States.


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

IMO, reputable breeders do not use the term "English Creme" in describing their dogs. It is a term used by BYB's and puppy mills in order to build hype and charge outrageous prices for poorly bred dogs with no clearances.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Two things I've thought of when I came back to this thread..

The first is that you could possibly still eat that $500 from the original (and ridiculous) $1700 price tag. This brings you to $1200 left over in what you were willing to spend. I know that this would definitely get you a well bred golden that will almost certainly have the correct conformation/structure. From her photo, it's nearly impossible to look at her structure. It would be helpful if she was shot at another angle. I love the bigger blocky heads, too. My pup's daddy has a nice head, I'm hoping he gets it from him.

The second thing that I thought of is that Lola, per the website, is half American and half English bloodlines (aka from across the pond). If you haven't seen any photos of sire/dam, it could be a very real possibility that she will turn out just like her American lines. Just food for thought.

Again, I know how painful grief is. We all do. Cancer sucks! Especially when it takes our dear furry friends. Please stick around and learn and share on this forum. That's how we all got here. It's also the only way to shut down these millers- it's about education and passing it along. 

In the end, make the decision that is best for your family. We aren't here to judge you, but we'd sure love to guide you into the best puppy and situation possible.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

There is a wealth of information on this forum about the scam of selling "British Cream" goldens on this website if you have a few moments to search. Here's the thing: Goldens in Britain come in a wide array of colors. Their standard happens to allow for a slightly lighter variation in color than ours does. But most of the dogs being marketed as English/British whatever do not go back to English lines. They are most likely from Eastern European lines, most do not have a history of clearances. Anyone who tries to sell you anything other than a "Golden Retriever" is more concerned about maximizing their profits than dealing in the truth.

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with preferring the British type. (Notice the difference in terminology and the lack of reference to color there) There are a number of responsible, reputable breeders selling dogs from British lines thoughout the states. You can find many of them listed on this forum, but if you'd like to speed to process a little I recommend contacting our member Doolin. He is a reputable breeder of British type goldens and generally has contacts with like breeders that he will happily recommend you to if he does not have puppies currently available or in the near future. 

You've gotten a lot of great advice on this thread. I'm going to try not to repeat too much. I know it's hard to step away from a puppy that you've let yourself get attached to (even through a photo). But this whole situation smells of heartbreak and we would hate to see you go through that. I know you still want to believe the best in this breeder and are hoping that you will be provided with appropriate clearance records, but honestly I couldn't imagine believing anything they send me. The litter your girl is coming from is not even listed on this breeders website that I can find. You have no way of knowing who the sire and dam are... they could send you any papers they can manage to scrape up. If they actually had these clearances on their dogs you can be assured that full registered names and links would be available on their website so that you could verify at OFA yourself. Then again, any breeder who would put that much care into breeding would not sell their dogs in this fashion with a short 3 way phone call and a broker handling the rest. I have no doubt that your initial statements answered all their questions... you didn't try to haggle the price, breeders like this only care about the money they will make off these pups.

I looked at the pictures of Lola. No doubt, she's cute... but what golden puppy isn't? But you talk so much about her conformation and I have to wonder how much you really understand the breed standard. First, you simply can't tell much from a picture... especially 2 pictures of the dog sitting and one at a very awkward stage of her gait. The only way to really "see" how a dog is put together is with your own hands. Plus this pup is 13 weeks old. There's not much of anything you can tell about her conformation at this age anyway. She's going to be all out of proportion for a while. The best time to evaluate pups is at 8 weeks, after that it's a crap shoot until they come much closer to maturity. Judging by the other dogs on this breeder's site, though, I wouldn't expect much out of her in this regard. Not one of this "breeder's" dogs seems all that impressive. I also wonder what kind of show this person is at as none of their dogs appear to have any titles they deem worthy of mentioning.

This I will repeat -- make sure you also ask for elbow clearances on any breeding pair you are considering. Elbow dysplasia is a nasty and painful condition... utterly heartbreaking for the dogs and their owners.

I understand your grief, most of us have been there ourselves. And you're right, no one can tell you when it is or is not the right time to get a dog. You'll know (or more accurately, you already know). But stack the odds in your favor. Find a breeder you can trust, one that can be a resource for you throughout your new pup's life. One that will allow you to meet the dam (and sire if possible, sometimes the sire is a great distance away though) and witness the puppys' setup. Who will properly socialize and care for the pups so that you start out with the strongest possible foundation for a life long friend. I strongly recommend you take the loss on your deposit and count your blessings that it's not 10 times that in vet bills and/or consultations with a behaviorist, not to mention the emotional toll on you and your family. Best of luck whatever you choose.

Julie and Jersey


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## spenser (Jul 22, 2010)

I believe this thread should be deleted in its entirety. Although I have deleted certain references in MY posts, I cannot edit other peoples quotes that contain these same references.

Can someone please notify the moderator(s) to pull the entire thread.

Thank you.

Bill


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but we don't delete threads from this site. The mods may respond to a request to close the thread as you're the one who started it. I'm confused though as to why you suddenly want to delete all of the sound advice you were given today. A number of people took time out of their day to help you... maybe you'll do better to sleep on it and review this thread with your wife in the morning so that you may come to the best decision for your family. Best of luck with whatever you choose.

Julie and Jersey


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I read through all the posts on this thread, Bill, and agree that it is hard to accept advice (even good advice) when you are already emotionally attached to Lola (and I did look at her picture, and yes she is a very handsome pup. And, yes, she does look, in the photo, a lot better than all the pups on that breeder's site, in my opinion)
If you do decide to get Lola, or any other pup, do you know about pet health insurance? I also live in SC and I just switched to PetPlan pet insurance. People on this site have researched insurance companies (you can find that thread) and you may want to invest in pet health insurance for your new puppy.


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## spenser (Jul 22, 2010)

Hi Jersey Mom--

I named certain peolple . What followed, although I did not make any similar comments, was the tarring of ANY breeder who sold via the Internet in very strong and pretty awful terms. Please use your imagination... 

I read all the posts, understood what was said, am very appreciative of the advice, wrote down the info needed in the future. What's left to do??


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

spenser said:


> I believe this thread should be deleted in its entirety. Although I have deleted certain references in MY posts, I cannot edit other peoples quotes that contain these same references.
> 
> Can someone please notify the moderator(s) to pull the entire thread.
> 
> ...


 
I personally don't understand what references you are referring to? The only person who hasn't been over the top nice is me and even then, I've been pretty nice and I thought my second post was super nice  I'm sorry if you don't like what you are hearing but I don't understand why you'd seem so offended.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I think the OP meant references where the breeder was named. Earlier in the thread, the OP went back and deleted the link he had put in which showed who the breeder was . But someone else had already quoted the OP (and that link was included in the quote). 
I am thinking the OP felt he should not have given such specific information and wanted the whole thread deleted so the breeder named in the link's identity no longer could be shown.


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## spenser (Jul 22, 2010)

Hi Ignutah--

Thak you, thank you, thank you and once more, thank you. Considering what may happen, your insightful (and accurate) post is most appreciated. You can see my caution right from my original post of this thread. 

Bill


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## tillytay1 (Feb 22, 2010)

spenser said:


> I believe this thread should be deleted in its entirety. Although I have deleted certain references in MY posts, I cannot edit other peoples quotes that contain these same references.
> 
> Can someone please notify the moderator(s) to pull the entire thread.
> 
> ...


Well, you come on here, you ask for advice and you get stoned by some  One thing I often get tired of on here is the snobbery involved in owning a golden. You said it ALL when you said that you had owned GR's from well sought after breeders and also rescue goldens...and it is clear that health issues arise regardless of breeding, parents and a certificate...Alot on here have given you support and maybe good advice but don't let anyone tell you you are doing it wrong! Yes, there are puppy mills about, dodgy breeders etc but I think you should stick with what you decided to do. My dog ( he's a 'cream' golden by the way....however some may dispute his ethnicity on here...lol) is 8 months old, he didn't come with a certificate,or known pedigree lines BUT he is bright as a button, loving, loyal, HEALTHY ( no issues as yet touch wood, our vet says he is in tiptop health) and I wouldn't swap him for the world or punish myself for getting him from a backsteet petshop in Istanbul...I can see people's horrified expressions as they read this  I am an animal lover like yourself, I don't support puppy mills yet maybe there is a chance my baby had a rough entrance to the world since he was shipped from Slovakia when he was less than 8 weeks old..I really don't know just how young he was.

People can point the finger and say you are wrong from getting yours off the internet ( in my case a horrible backstreet petshop) but doesn't any dog once it is brought into this world deserve a home?!? It's the authorities and the government that needs to sort out puppy mills and put a stop to them. 

I stop and look at my beautiful dog sometimes and think what would have happened to him if I hadn't picked him up that day? How long would he have been in that tiny cage? Where and what would have his life been like? Of course I care about his health, I hope he never has any serious issues but I also know that I'm in it for the long term regardless 'in sickness and in health'. 

Good luck with everything, all the best.


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

closing as requested


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