# 2022 National Derby Championship



## Golden Gibby (Jan 8, 2011)

Good luck to you. I’ll be looking forward to reading your descriptions..


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Golden Gibby said:


> I’ll be looking forward to reading your descriptions..


Hope I can behave myself until then.🤞


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## JerseyChris (10 mo ago)

Best of luck !!!


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

80 dogs listed are now qualified. Only one Golden, the second place dog at the specialty ages out before the national so not eligible. This is a legitimate criticism of the event, many good dogs have unfortunate birthdays. Dogs that turn 2 years old before the start of the event are not eligible. 
There were actually quite a few Goldens at the last derby we ran, 5 maybe 6.

Lily ran an outstanding trial and placed 2nd. That gives her 8 points, need ten to make "The Derby List" whatever that's worth, prestige I guess.









The dog that won is the high point derby dog right now but has an unlucky birthday, ages out after this weekend.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Well the entry for the national derby championship closed last Monday night.
60 dogs entered a couple peaks and all the rest labs, no goldens this year☹
I will try to post daily updates and photos of the tests along with descriptions and my analysis, whatever that’s worth. You can follow the blog and they do a good job but are somewhat restricted in their descriptions of the dog work. They have to be 1000% positive no matter how bad a dog performs. 
i’ll post a link to the blog as soon as it’s up and running, which will probably be next Sunday. The event starts on the 10th.
If anyone has questions about anything at all related to the event please ask. My goal is to inspire interest in field trials and training. 
So many people are intimidated about training dogs, especially for fieldwork. There’s no reason to be. Training a dog to do what he was bred for is very rewarding to both dog and handler.


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## JerseyChris (10 mo ago)

Thanks Stan for keeping us posted. I personally have no experience with Hunt/field work but certainly would love to learn more about it. Now if I can only convince my family to take at least a weekend off every month for doing this...


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Lily's number?









Sweet 16, of course


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## Golden Gibby (Jan 8, 2011)

Thanks for doing this and good luck. I’m interested, and have a young dog I’m thinking of trying a derby with next year.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Golden Gibby said:


> Thanks for doing this and good luck. I’m interested, and have a young dog I’m thinking of trying a derby with next year.


Thanks
Derbies are a lot of fun. You just need a retriever under 2 years old that can mark well and has good line manners.

Hundreds, probably thousands, of retrieves and drills help too.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

2022 National Derby Championship


2022 National Derby Information



www.theretrievernews.com


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

And they’re off
Double, both roosters, flier on the right and thrown right
Left bird angled back right and landing at the edge of the pine tree


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Looks like Lily is off to a great start!


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

We had a very good day.
Second series was a single thrown to the right. 200-250 yards? Pretty basic, I don't think the judges wanted to send any more dogs home the first day. There were two scratches and four were dropped after the first series, all picked up by the handlers..










Lily will be the first to run the third series tomorrow. I don't know what they have planned.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

A photo from the blog of the 3rd series as seen from the line.
Lily was first to run this rainy morning.
She jumped out ahead as the short mark was thrown. Naughty girl. I don’t think she was going to break but I told her sit and that makes it a “controlled break” which is a moderate fault.
When she heard the sit command she jumped backwards into the heel position, she knew where she was supposed to be. Picked up both birds quickly.
If time permits we will run some blinds later today. Control and discipline work. 








Most dogs are doing the test. Three or four picked up so far with a quarter of the entries yet to run.
The tests will start getting tougher now.
Weather getting better, supposed to get windy this afternoon.


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## Golden Gibby (Jan 8, 2011)

question.. Are most or possibly all marks hand thrown at a field trial? I recently watched some marks at a field trial. derby, and open series and most or all of the marks that I saw were hand thrown. Just curious of that’s the norm.
Also thanks for posting.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Golden Gibby said:


> question.. Are most or possibly all marks hand thrown at a field trial? I recently watched some marks at a field trial. derby, and open series and most or all of the marks that I saw were hand thrown. Just curious of that’s the norm.
> Also thanks for posting.


Yes, all birds are hand thrown and there are two people at each station, three at flier stations.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Photo from the blog of the 4th series. This is a challenging test, Both marks thrown to the left. Many dogs with big hunts on one or both birds, Wind was stout coming from 7-8 o'clock. Wind and terrain both pushing the dogs right. The left mark being thrown across the road is another big factor, especially for young dogs. Many big hunts on the wrong sides of the guns. Only 5 dogs eliminated but no doubt that there is a lot of separation in the judges books. There are still 6 more tests left and plenty of opportunity to gain or lose ground.

Lily did excellent on this test, very proud of her. One of her brothers did the same and the other had a hunt on the left mark but still very good work.










This is a very fun event. All those involved in putting it together and keeping it moving are doing a great job.

Got out and work with those Golden pups. The breed deserves representation at this event.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

5th series photo from the blog.








A wide open water double with long memory bird thrown left and a flier on the right shot over water and then sluiced.
Lily did an excellent job on the test. 
The test was paused just after 4:00 PM due to glare from the water making it difficult to see the flier. A half hour later conditions had not improved and the test was called for the day with only Five dogs left to run. Not wht anyone wanted but that is how it goes sometimes. Those five dogs will run the test in the morning.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

6th and 7th series in the bag. No callbacks to the 8th yet. I think there may be a significant cut.

Lily was great in the 6th and very good in the 7th. I will explain the tests later for those interested, long day today.


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## JerseyChris (10 mo ago)

SRW said:


> . I will explain the tests later for those interested, long day today.


Thank you !!!!


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Getting real this morning. Double with Hen pheasants and a retired gun.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

SRW said:


> Getting real this morning. Double with Hen pheasants and a retired gun.


I hate pheasants. I know that's just a me thing, but good luck this morning. We are looking forward to the update.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

We didn't get called back to the 9th. Had a small hunt on the go bird and hunted short on the retired mark before working her way to the gun station and then the bird. I was very surprised that we got cut with only one poor mark. Could have been the controlled break in the third but one of the finalists had a controlled break and a very poor mark on the same bird. 
In any case we could not have won. A few dogs were near flawless, Lily's brother was one of them. He did not win but had to have been very close in the judges books. In National retriever events there are no placements other than finalists that completed all the tests and the winner. 
Lily's brother is owned and handled by very good friends and it was great to share a fun week with them.

I will post more about the tests, what the factors were and reasons for bird placements. 
Tomorrow I am judging the Mississippi Valley Q. I will take photos and do my best to explain those tests as well.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

I am going to add some comments and observations on each series of the NDC. I want to state up front that the judges did a great job at the event and none of my comments are meant to disparage them.

First Series double with Rooster pheasants
First bird on the left, thrown angled back right to a pine tree. The arrow in the photo isn't quite correct. The birds landed a little left, about the center of the tree and under the low branches.
The right bird was a rooster flier thrown to the right.








A tougher than I expected for the first series. It is a fairly tight set up.
The left bird landed under the tree, scenting conditions were poor but did improve somewhat later on.
The factors that made this test tough;
Pheasants, many dogs have not seen many of them and they put of less scent than a duck.
The shot flier lands across a road, many dogs hunted on the gunners side of the road before working it out.
The bird on the left lands under the pine tree out of sight. This was a theme of the whole event due to very little cover because it had been so dry. Most dogs did not go in under the tree without hunting. I is a normal tendency for a young dog to "bounce off" trees, heavy cover, terrain changes, etc. They want to see the bird, It takes training and repetition to teach them to dig in to cover for a mark. Some of the dogs expanded their hunts far outside the area of fall or left the area and went back to the flier.
In route to the left bird about half way there is a large mound, few dogs took the most direct path, over the center of the mound. This is another natural tendency of youngsters. Dogs that go right of the mound are tempted to go back to the flier. Dogs that went left could end up hunting behind the gun but in this test it seemed to be the safer path.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Yikes, pheasants. I always forget FT will use pheasants. We don’t see them in HT, at least in my region. I do have a couple hanging out in my freezer. 
Looking forward to your derby descriptions.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

The second series was a single water mark. A duck thrown to the right behind a group of small trees.
All the dogs did it but some had a little trouble with it. A few cheated water to some degree which put them in a bad position as the exited the pond. Some squared the road and hill, putting them behind the gun and hunting the cover. Some ended up wide right and followed the road before looping back. A few others hunted short of the trees.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

3rd series photo from the blog. I just noticed the had the left mark throw drawn incorrect. It was thrown to the right across a low berm and in front of some trees. The left mark was the first thrown, then the right. These were ducks.
There was a round bale in front of the pond and in line with the fall of the left mark. 
There were a lot of hunts on the left mark in this series. Once again dogs did not want to dig in to those trees and the low berm was also a barrier to them. 
It was a rainy morning and Lily was the first dog to run this series. She was a little wound up and not heeling well going to the line. When the right bird was thrown she crept out a few feet. I told her to sit and she immediately jumped back to heel where she belonged. I don't think she would have broke, left for the bird before released, she never has, but I did not want to gamble and find out. Telling her to sit after the bird was thrown and prior to the judges calling our number made it a controlled break, a moderate fault, same as a hunt for a mark. After that she got the marks near perfect.








In a setup like this it can be a challenge to find and focus on the long gun, the short gun draws their attention.
Even if they do find the long gun, dogs will often look back at the short gun before the mark is thrown, or before it hits the ground, "Head Swinging". Most dogs will do far better if they watch the birds all the way to the ground. The are notable exceptions, dogs that rarely watch a mark to the ground but can look at a setup and know where the birds will be thrown.
Impressive to watch but that attitude causes them to make big mistakes too.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

I already went over the 4th and 5th series, here is the 6th








A thrown hen pheasant on the left followed by a hen pheasant flier on the right. Wind from three o'clock and pretty strong.
Many handlers learned the importance of training with hen pheasants. They put off far less scent than a duck. Dogs that are not used to them will often wind them but keep hunting, either not recognizing it as a bird or thinking they are supposed to find a duck. This was evident with many dogs as they hunted the flier.
Hard to see in the photo, on the left is a long curved slope in route to the memory bird. It's actually a pond dike. I have been to several trials at this property and they always use this field and the pond dike in at least one stake. Hard for a dog to maintain a line on a steep slope and the curve makes it even tougher. Dogs will often "fall off" the hill which in this test pushes them back toward the flier.

Lily has seen many hen pheasants in training and one of her natural talents is running very straight, even on a slope like in this test. She did very well, stepped on the flier and passed just upwind of the left mark then looped around to get it.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

7th series water double with ducks
Long mark thrown first then short
Wind quite strong from 7 o'clock.
They considered having a flier but opted against it due to the wind. 
The short bird throwers were actually positioned to the left about 15 feet and the bird splashes in the water just off the shore.
A number of dogs went inside the short mark and hunted in and around the trees or deep of them.
There is a pond in route to the long mark. The majority of dogs I watched missed it, some intentionally and some took a wide line, pushing off the short mark and or first pond. Fighting the wind and hillside too much could also put a dog left of the pond. 
It was interesting to watch the dogs on the long mark. Some got to the edge of the pond, put on the brakes and went around, blatantly cheating. Others skirted the edge and some were way wide. 
Lily got the short bird very quickly, missed it by a yard or so, saw it, slammed on the brakes, turned and pounced on it.
She went wide of the pond on the long mark, hooked around the gun and got the bird with a very short hunt.
She may have over fought the wind and hill or she may have "pre-planned" her route. I don't know which. As a training mark I would have stopped and handled her to the water.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

The 8th series double with hen pheasants
Right mark first thrown to the right across a road and gunners retire 
Left mark second thrown left. The bird lands in the open, far short of the tree line.
They did scatter some branches around a few yards short of the mark. Not sure why and I did not care for it. The branches all had human scent on them, just like a bumper in training and many dogs hunted around them.
The bird on the left was the real challenge with the gunners retired (concealed in a blind after the throw). Many young dogs have seen few if any retired marks. Quite a few dogs did not cross the road and went a 100 yards or more deep to the top of the ridge before being picked up or working their way to the bird.








Lily got the left mark with a short hunt in the area of fall. 
On the right mark she made a couple circles about half way to the bird. Not sure why, I may have sent her to softly or a previous dog could have dropped a bird on the way in and she smelled it? She then pushed deeper, found the gunners and then the bird.


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## Golden Gibby (Jan 8, 2011)

I want to thank you for taking the time to post this and share your insights. I appreciate the time and effort to give us an inside view of a derby.
I‘ve been hunting lately and haven’t been on much, just wanted to say thanks.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

The 9th series, a tight land double (pinched). 
Long mark thrown first is a hen pheasant thrown at a slight angle back and landing across a road.
Short mark is a rooster thrown into a finger of cover.
Wind from about the 7 o'clock position.
This is a very tight test, very tempting for the dogs to go back to the go bird at least a couple did. 
The photo is not the best, the line was actually more to the left of where this was taken and the test is tighter than it appears here.
There is a large mound behind the tree on the right. This can add some push to the left. Some dogs went around the right side of the mound, possibly lined up that way by handlers concerned about switching. Could also be a trained response of dogs knowing they are not supposed to go back to the short bird. 

In a training situation I would probably handle a dog (depending on experience) that tried to go wide right in route to the long bird. NO CORRECTION, not even an overly loud whistle, just stop and handle to the correct side of the mound. The dog has not done a bad thing, just not the right thing.
Dogs need to be comfortable passing close to gunners and old falls in route to a memory bird. 
On this test the dogs that went right of the mound did fine. In a more challenging test with a retired gun, they would have been in trouble.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

10th series triple.








It has become somewhat of a tradition to have a triple for the 10th series. There is actually a rule now that there can be a triple and a retired gun in the NDC but not both in the same series. I don't know why they felt compelled to make the rules. There are no such rules for weekend derbies.

As I said previously, the judges did an outstanding job at the event as did everyone that was involved.
That said, I did not like this test. 
The left mark was fine. 
The route to the middle bird was all land. I would have preferred some water in route rather than having young dogs run close to water without getting in. It seemed like the only purpose of the mark was making the series a triple. 
The last mark thrown was the flier on the right. It was shot over the water and then sluiced. Fliers are always a variable and shot over water made this a huge variable in the test. Some went very long, some short, some angled in. Some of the dogs got a crippled duck, head up and swimming/splashing around. Some were dead and laying flat on the water. Stout wind created waves making a dead bird very hard to see on the water and pushing it quickly toward the far shore.
The longer a dog hunts a flier the more difficult memory marks become.
All that could have been avoided by shooting the flier over land on the far side of the pond. 

Anyway it was a great event and lots of fun. My wife (who likes dogs but not to the extent I do) and I had a great time. It was nice to see our good friends and Lily's brother do so well and be one of the finalists.


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## Golden Gibby (Jan 8, 2011)

Wrapping up hunting season here and starting to focus on training again and have a training question.

Since the birds are all hand thrown do you set the wingers to throw shorter mark with less arc to simulate a hand thrown bird or just not worry about it?
I’m wondering about this since many of the marks are 200+ yards and it makes me wonder if the dogs may have a hard time seeing a hand tossed bird at those distances.
I’ve seen some hand tossed birds at hunt tests and training that didn’t go as expected so it makes me think about better preparation for it.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Golden Gibby said:


> Since the birds are all hand thrown do you set the wingers to throw shorter mark with less arc to simulate a hand thrown bird or just not worry about it? Long throws are generally good.


Probably not, I suppose it would depend on the winger. You want a big arc so the dog can see it and watch it to the ground. That builds on a dogs marking ability.


Golden Gibby said:


> I’m wondering about this since many of the marks are 200+ yards and it makes me wonder if the dogs may have a hard time seeing a hand tossed bird at those distances.
> I’ve seen some hand tossed birds at hunt tests and training that didn’t go as expected so it makes me think about better preparation for it.


Not everyone is physically capable of throwing a bird well.
A well thrown bird should be easy for a dog to see at well over 200 yards. The arm motion of the thrower is part of it and the fact that a person is there draws the dogs attention more than a winger or launcher operated remotely.
When using a winger operated buy a person in the field, it is a good idea to have them make a throwing motion with their arm as the bird is launched.
For birds that are hard to see due to lighting conditions or background, tie a white ribbon to a leg. Another option is to throw the bird and then throw a white bumper (this helps prevent head swinging too).
When a dog does not see a mark thrown you need to determine if the dog was looking at it or not, often they are not. Get down to the dogs level on the line and have the gunners throw a couple birds, if you can see them your dog can too.
With multiple throwers in the field, young dogs sometimes won't pick out a long gun because they are focused on a shorter one. Gunner movement will help draw the dogs attention but keep it to a minimum, you want the dog searching for the gunners on its own.
A friend of mine had a real problem with dog not picking out the long gun. Someone in the training group had a black and white umbrella and took it to the long gun station. When the dog didn't look past the short guns, the long gunner was instructed to spin the umbrella. Two or three days of that and the dog was picking out the long gun as it approached the line.


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## Golden Gibby (Jan 8, 2011)

Thanks for the insight, that gives some things to work on… My young dog shows some nice natural ability and turns 2 in June so we may try a derby or 2 in the spring.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Golden Gibby said:


> we may try a derby or 2 in the spring.


That's great, A long bird tight to a short mark (possibly the a flier) is something you need to be prepared for. The guns won't be retired but very often the dogs will lose sight of the memory bird in route and be tempted to return to the old fall.

Unless it is a very large entry, the first series marks are usually pretty wide. The dog needs to be able to focus on the memory mark, not be distracted by the flier. Young dogs often come to the line and won't look at anything but the flier. 
Train on lots of singles with multiple guns in the field.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Photo of the third series from a recent derby. I was not there. Lily's brother got a JAM. 
Derbies can be very tough.


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## Golden Gibby (Jan 8, 2011)

Wow, thats is a tough double.. Also really nice pond…. That’s another one of the challenges, finding technical water to train on.. Before the water started icing over we were working on long water entries with down the shoreline marks. Not on a tech pond but working with what’s available.


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