# biological brothers: Charlie & Jesse



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Cute dogs.

An outcross will produce far more variation within a litter than a line breeding, or a breeding of two phenotypically similar dogs. 

Do Charlie and Jesse have the same mother and father, just a repeat breeding?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ahh, never mind. I see that they are out of the same mother and father.
Were they planned breedings?


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## TuckersMom (Sep 26, 2010)

OMG so adorable!! I love the ridge on Charlie's snout, my family lab had one when I was growing up. We try to keep in touch with Tucker's brothers and sister. its fun to compare pics!!


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> Ahh, never mind. I see that they are out of the same mother and father.
> Were they planned breedings?


 
Thank you. 
Yes, same mother & father, and yes they were planned.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

They are so cute. It is really interesting they are full siblings yet so different in size.


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

They are both so cute.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Chantel said:


> Thank you.
> Yes, same mother & father, and yes they were planned.


Okay, take this as you may... given that this is a mixed and unregistered breeding, were there any health clearances, ie OFA hips/elbow, heart or CERF eyes done on the sire and dam? I ask because, (and you asked in your first thread) I _would_ be more concerned about health issues based on the breeding. Hip and elbow dysplasia, and patella or ACL problems are more prevelant in over sized dogs, and particularly without an ancestral history of clearances. Eye problems, and cardiac problems are also hereditary, and again, without a history of clear dogs in the pedigree, something to look out for. Your description of the dog, as well as the photos, prove that he has a wonderful, sweet temperament, and I'd hate for him (and any other resulting offspring from these breedings) to suffer any common, but for the most part preventable, hereditary problems.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

mylissyk said:


> They are so cute. It is really interesting they are full siblings yet so different in size.


Charlie is almost 2 years older, Jesse may still grow some  he doesn't even turn 1 until the end of May. Some of these photos are from a few months ago, too. and thank you


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

mylissyk said:


> They are so cute. It is really interesting they are full siblings yet so different in size.


Outcrosses and mixed breedings usually produce a wide variety. Most of my litters have been linebred - "cookie cutter" puppies that were very consistent in size, color, type. The one total outcross breeding that I made produced 8 puppies, all very different - some big, some small, and every color from extremely light to quite dark red. It was strange for us to see such differences - they didn't look like siblings at all!


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> Okay, take this as you may... given that this is a mixed and unregistered breeding, were there any health clearances, ie OFA hips/elbow, heart or CERF eyes done on the sire and dam? I ask because, (and you asked in your first thread) I _would_ be more concerned about health issues based on the breeding. Hip and elbow dysplasia, and patella or ACL problems are more prevelant in over sized dogs, and particularly without an ancestral history of clearances. Eye problems, and cardiac problems are also hereditary, and again, without a history of clear dogs in the pedigree, something to look out for. Your description of the dog, as well as the photos, prove that he has a wonderful, sweet temperament, and I'd hate for him (and any other resulting offspring from these breedings) to suffer any common, but for the most part preventable, hereditary problems.


Their mother is around 6 or 7 years old and perfectly healthy, the breeders are family friends. I have never seen their father but he doesn't have any problems either. If you're asking if I got papers on their full family history-no, I was 16 when I got Charlie-I didn't care about anything other than the fact that he was adorable, healthy, & so so sweet! He gets check-ups regularly, and if something were to come up- we would deal with it and obviously get him whatever care that he needs. I just want him to live a happy and healthy life, however long that may be. Charlie had blood work done & his thyroid tested this past November, because the vet thought his fur looked funny at the time, (the only thing that has ever come up), and everything came back perfectly fine. Assuming that his coat is a little different because he isn't pure Golden.
Our vet recently told us Jesse would make a good breeding dog, he is not neutered and we are unsure if we are going to neuter him or not.

They are not show dogs (obviously), they are our pets.. well more like family. And just because I didn't pay 800+$ for him, doesn't mean he's not going to live just as long, healthy, and happy life as those pedigreed dogs . Anything can come up, no matter what the family history may be.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Oh- and the majority of replies I got regarding his height- was that I should keep him lean like he is now so he doesn't have extra strain on his joints as he ages. I don't think Charlie could gain weight if he tried! I sometimes worry about how lean he is, but our vet isn't concerned and I suppose it's better he be skinny than fat.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Chantel said:


> Their mother is around 6 or 7 years old and perfectly healthy, the breeders are family friends. I have never seen their father but he doesn't have any problems either. If you're asking if I got papers on their full family history-no, I was 16 when I got Charlie-I didn't care about anything other than the fact that he was adorable, healthy, & so so sweet! He gets check-ups regularly, and if something were to come up- we would deal with it and obviously get him whatever care that he needs. I just want him to live a happy and healthy life, however long that may be. Charlie had blood work done & his thyroid tested this past November, because the vet thought his fur looked funny at the time, (the only thing that has ever come up), and everything came back perfectly fine. Assuming that his coat is a little different because he isn't pure Golden.
> Our vet recently told us Jesse would make a good breeding dog, he is not neutered and we are unsure if we are going to neuter him or not.
> 
> They are not show dogs (obviously), they are our pets.. well more like family. And just because I didn't pay 800+$ for him, doesn't mean he's not going to live just as long, healthy, and happy life as those pedigreed dogs . Anything can come up, no matter what the family history may be.


 
The hereditary health issues that I mentioned may be present even if the dog is asymptomatic. Some, like Pigmentary Uveitis, may not appear until 8 or 9 years old, at which time treatment may not be effective. Cardiac concerns, such as SAS, may strike a seemingly healthy dog while they are playing in the yard. In breedings such as these, it is so unlikley that owners do the needed health clearances to know whether they exist or not, until it is either too late, or, they've been bred and perpetuated the problems. 

If you choose to breed Jesse, which I would discourage (just because he may seem to be of the right size, etc, he himself is likely to produce "abnormally large" offspring, and hereditary problems) , I would hope that you would do the proper clearances - OFA hips/elbows, annual CERF eye exams, and board certified cardiology tests, and not use him if any one of them is not cleared. Even if he did clear, not having _generations_ cleared
greatly increases the chance of producing one or more of the problems.
I've done my best to try to inform. My concern is the dogs. It's not about $800 show dogs, trust me.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Chantel said:


> Oh- and the majority of replies I got regarding his height- was that I should keep him lean like he is now so he doesn't have extra strain on his joints as he ages. I don't think Charlie could gain weight if he tried! I sometimes worry about how lean he is, but our vet isn't concerned and I suppose it's better he be skinny than fat.


If he has HD or ED, keeping him lean may help prevent crippling pain, it won't cure or prevent the disease. If he has PU, or SAS, his weight won't be relevant.
Here's hoping that he doesn't.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> The hereditary health issues that I mentioned may be present even if the dog is asymptomatic. Some, like Pigmentary Uveitis, may not appear until 8 or 9 years old, at which time treatment may not be effective. Cardiac concerns, such as SAS, may strike a seemingly healthy dog while they are playing in the yard. In breedings such as these, it is so unlikley that owners do the needed health clearances to know whether they exist or not, until it is either too late, or, they've been bred and perpetuated the problems.
> 
> If you choose to breed Jesse, which I would discourage (just because he may seem to be of the right size, etc, he himself is likely to produce "abnormally large" offspring, and hereditary problems) , I would hope that you would do the proper clearances - OFA hips/elbows, annual CERF eye exams, and board certified cardiology tests, and not use him if any one of them is not cleared. Even if he did clear, not having _generations_ cleared
> greatly increases the chance of producing one or more of the problems.
> I've done my best to try to inform. My concern is the dogs. It's not about $800 show dogs, trust me.


Well rather or not they may have hereditary problems some day, doesn't change anything now that they are here, does it? They still needed homes. Charlie is my first dog of my very own- but my family has had 3 other dogs while I was growing up, and none of them had pedigree's and/or family history. Toby was a German Shepard/Collie mix, he lived to be 16 years old, he died when I was 5. Chance was a black labrador retriever mix, he lived to be 17. And our outdoor dog, Peaches, that we have now was basically a rescue, a friend of my dad's was moving and told my dad he can't find anyone to take her and that he may have to have her put down (I dont know if he bothered looking into animal shelters or not), but my dad felt bad so he took her, my dads friend said she was around 3 years old. 11 years later, we still have her. We tried to house train her but it was virtually impossible, so she is outside in a kennel and taken care of and played with. We are unsure of what she is, she also appears to be some sort of black lab mix with long hair. So I guess I'll take my chances on getting a dog without a family history, it has always worked out fine for me and my family. Oh and my brother also has a pure chocolate lab that he got when he was 16, he is now 32, so Buck is 16, but has slowed down signifigantly this past year


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I think they are so cute, not al human brothers,are a like.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Chantel said:


> Well rather or not they may have hereditary problems some day, doesn't change anything now that they are here, does it? They still needed homes. Charlie is my first dog of my very own- but my family has had 3 other dogs while I was growing up, and none of them had pedigree's and/or family history. Toby was a German Shepard/Collie mix, he lived to be 16 years old, he died when I was 5. Chance was a black labrador retriever mix, he lived to be 17. And our outdoor dog, Peaches, that we have now was basically a rescue, a friend of my dad's was moving and told my dad he can't find anyone to take her and that he may have to have her put down (I dont know if he bothered looking into animal shelters or not), but my dad felt bad so he took her, my dads friend said she was around 3 years old. 11 years later, we still have her. We tried to house train her but it was virtually impossible, so she is outside in a kennel and taken care of and played with. We are unsure of what she is, she also appears to be some sort of black lab mix with long hair. So I guess I'll take my chances on getting a dog without a family history, it has always worked out fine for me and my family. Oh and my brother also has a pure chocolate lab that he got when he was 16, he is now 32, so Buck is 16, but has slowed down signifigantly this past year


No, it certainly doesn't change anything now. But, I would hope that you would not want to perpetuate the probability of any of those hereditary diseases being produced in future generations.
By the way, I'm not referring to pedigrees. All dogs have pedigrees, even mutts - they are nothing more than their "family tree". I'm referring to a documented, verifiable history of ancestors tested as free of hereditary disease. Longevity is nice, but even dogs that are afflicted with some of these known issues can live a very long time.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> No, it certainly doesn't change anything now. But, I would hope that you would not want to perpetuate the probability of any of those hereditary diseases being produced in future generations.
> By the way, I'm not referring to pedigrees. All dogs have pedigrees, even mutts - they are nothing more than their "family tree". I'm referring to a documented, verifiable history of ancestors tested as free of hereditary disease. Longevity is nice, but even dogs that are afflicted with some of these known issues can live a very long time.


Not sure where you're from, but around here most people don't worry too much about that fancy medical history. I pray that my animals are healthy and that's all I can ask for. Rather or not my mom breeds her dog is up to her, it's no one's business except for the owner of the female he would breed with, or the people interested in the puppies. Case closed


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

Chantel said:


> Not sure where you're from, but around here most people don't worry too much about that fancy medical history. I pray that my animals are healthy and that's all I can ask for. Rather or not my mom breeds her dog is up to her, it's no one's business except for the owner of the female he would breed with, or the people interested in the puppies. Case closed


Fancy medical history? It's really not. It is VITAL. I know you are a new member, so you don't really know...but just do a search around this forum to see all the dogs that have suffered from crippling hereditary diseases...that should be enough to realize the importance of clearances.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

nixietink said:


> Fancy medical history? It's really not. It is VITAL. I know you are a new member, so you don't really know...but just do a search around this forum to see all the dogs that have suffered from crippling hereditary diseases...that should be enough to realize the importance of clearances.


Honestly, I'm done talking about this subject. My dog is healthy, and all the dogs my family has ever owned have lived happy, healthy, long lives. None of them developed problems until into their late teen years, and the vet always says it'd be harder on them to run tests and that more than likely it is just old age. I trust in God that my animals will remain healthy- and if they shouldn't, I trust that I will have the strength to deal with it. Are you and PG going to get on every single person who has ever rescued a dog? or boughtten a dog without a family history? Just curious.


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

Rescuing and buying a dog without the history is your business and may sometimes even be charitable. But deliberately breeding without clearances just proves ignorance or attitude.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Summer's Mom said:


> Rescuing and buying a dog without the history is your business and may sometimes even be charitable. But deliberately breeding without clearances just proves ignorance or attitude.


My dog is neutered. All I said was what my mom does with her dog is her business.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Chantel said:


> My dog is neutered. All I said was what my mom does with her dog is her business.


Perhaps you might learn something about what has been discussed, and offer that information to your mother, in hopes that she might make the best decision, which would be to not deliberately breed an unregistered mixed breed dog without health clearances.

And, I'll add, shame on a veterinarian who would encourage it.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Chantel said:


> Not sure where you're from, but around here most people don't worry too much about that fancy medical history. I pray that my animals are healthy and that's all I can ask for. Rather or not my mom breeds her dog is up to her, it's no one's business except for the owner of the female he would breed with, or the people interested in the puppies. Case closed


It's really not all you can ask for. Closing the case is closing the door on educating yourself, and others, about what is right for the dogs. Not to mention potential puppy owners who might be facing thousands of dollars in veterinary care.
You really might do well to take advantage of being on this forum and what you can learn, rather than to come here and dismiss people who actually have considerable knowledge, and who care deeply about the well being of the breed.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Chantel said:


> Oh and my brother also has a pure chocolate lab that he got when he was 16, he is now 32, so Buck is 16, but has slowed down signifigantly this past year


That is an AMAZING age for a lab. You guys and your brother must have taken wonderful care of him.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> That is an AMAZING age for a lab. You guys and your brother must have taken wonderful care of him.


Yes he is very loved 
I am on my iPhone so I can't post a direct image, but if you would like to see a photo of him, click this link 


Here's a link to 'Photo Feb 09, 7 49 42 AM.jpg' in my Dropbox.

Okay nevermind apparently the link doesn't work? lol I will upload a photo of him later, he has gotten very gray.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

this link should work now, If it's not clickable, copy and paste it into your browser. It's a photo of Buck spending some time outside 

http://db.tt/UgBzego


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Chantel said:


> Honestly, I'm done talking about this subject. My dog is healthy, and all the dogs my family has ever owned have lived happy, healthy, long lives. None of them developed problems until into their late teen years, and the vet always says it'd be harder on them to run tests and that more than likely it is just old age.


This reminds me of my mom's family....  

They had this saying - basically, there's nothing wrong with you unless you go to the doctor. Never go to the doctor, because they always find something wrong. 

I checked my young guy's hips, btw, because I hike with him in summer + I want him to be able to jump without hurting himself. He has never shown any clinical signs and this is the same dog who can jump 4 feet straight up off his hips (as tested when he leapt up on our kitchen table this past summer). He has never limped and he has as good a gait as any golden being trotted in the ring. No bunny hopping, etc. 

And he has bilateral hip dysplasia. Mild enough so he isn't going to have surgery any time soon, but if I am not careful enough with him, he will experience damage to his joints. And our vet encouraged me to keep him very active to keep his muscle tone up and she gave me a list of supplements along with doses that he needs to have every day of his life.

I likely would never have known about his hips until he got up in age. And then I probably would have excused it as normal old age arthritis. I discussed this with our vet regarding our other golden (the boy who was barely 23 inches at the shoulder) who had great hips and elbows all his life. He never limped or hobbled a day in his life.

He had xrays towards the end and the hips looked pretty bad by then. I asked the vet (who is also the main surgeon at this clinic and sees a lot of hips) if this meant he'd lived with hip dysplasia the entire time, and she couldn't tell me. She said that by the time the dog is as old as our dog was (13), they can't tell the difference between damage from natural aging or damage caused by dysplasia. It was interesting.

Anyway. 

Two thoughts:

*** I must confess I had this initial idea that Jesse really was some kind of giant if he was that much bigger than his littermate. : But then I noticed the 2 years difference. 

*** Having tests is important for pets who are not going to be bred too. The main thing I'm thinking is that you really want to be able to have an active dog by the time your boy is 10+. 

If your mom is thinking about breeding his brother, please make sure she waits until he is 2+. And ask her to get a peek at the hips and elbows and have his eyes seen. Xrays are $100-130 here. Eyes cost $35-45 for a cerf exam. 

A dog with hip/elbow dysplasia should never be bred. Same thing with a dog who has some kind of eye issue. Same thing with a dog who has any kind of health issue. <- People who breed dogs purely based on looks and temperament are pretty irresponsible, because they are not thinking ahead to the health of the puppies they are producing.


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## janine (Aug 8, 2009)

Charlie looks like a sweetie so does your Mom's pup. But I really love the picture of your brothers lab...what a sweet old man.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

I really don't like weighing in when people are being passionate about a subject, but instead will relate to you a story. 

My first ever Golden was oversized like your boy. He stood 28" at the shoulder, but wasn't leggy and he weighed some 94 - 103 pounds. (The latter being when he got a zing chubby). By the time he was a year old we noticed him bunny hopping around. He never showed any other outward signs there was an issue... but, two days later he was diagnosed with severe Hip Displaysia. 

Calvin suffered for 6 more years after that. He had a slew of other medical problems. He had an operation scheduled but due to his other issues it was always pushed back. He eventually died by the age of 7 succumbing to thyroid cancer that spread throughout his body. I learned his parents were puppymilled out of Oklahoma, and obviously Calvin's parents weren't cleared for any genetic faults. His legacy served as a stark warning that will echo throughout my life.... because really.. watching your dog suffer for the last five years of his life killed something inside of me.

I am far from a rarity though, most of us are here because we've had issues buying a dog from uncleared parents. And, though the people who breed their dogs mean well, there are reprecussions paid by the puppies and the people who love them.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> This reminds me of my mom's family....
> 
> They had this saying - basically, there's nothing wrong with you unless you go to the doctor. Never go to the doctor, because they always find something wrong.
> 
> ...


If I weren't doing _annual _eye exams, Zoom may well have ended up like her brother, losing an eye (after several years of having been misdiagnosed and treated incorrectly.)
Recently, a pet owner posted here on GRF about the sudden death of their young, apparently healthy dog - SAS.
And the myriad of members whose dogs have HD or ED, or ACL problems. 
It amazes me that, with all of the information available, _anyone, _no matter how things are done in their area, would just say "whatever, we can do what we want." Yep, ya can. But ya shouldn't.

*It is very important to note that a dog can be dysplastic, have heart or eye disease, or other hereditary health concerns and not show outward signs of it. However, if s/he is bred, resulting generations can. Is it worth the risk?*


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I am far from a rarity though, most of us are here because we've had issues buying a dog from uncleared parents. And, though the people who breed their dogs mean well, there are reprecussions paid by the puppies and the people who love them.


Our first ever golden was a byb too. We lost him when he was 6... and he's the reason why we are as neurotic about visiting the vet for tests as we now are. I was debating about sending you pics of him for your "experiment", except I don't have any pics showing him from the side where he's actually standing. Too bad because I probably haven't shown too many pics of him compared to photo hog Jacks.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Megora said:


> Our first ever golden was a byb too. We lost him when he was 6... and he's the reason why we are as neurotic about visiting the vet for tests as we now are. I was debating about sending you pics of him for your "experiment", except I don't have any pics showing him from the side where he's actually standing. Too bad because I probably haven't shown too many pics of him compared to photo hog Jacks.


Send them anyways!!! The broadness of the head is also soemthing that's a give away ;-)


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

Chantel said:


> Not sure where you're from, but around here most people don't worry too much about that fancy medical history. I pray that my animals are healthy and that's all I can ask for. Rather or not my mom breeds her dog is up to her, it's no one's business except for the owner of the female he would breed with, or the people interested in the puppies. Case closed


Actually, a lot of people who are informed DO want to know their dogs history. I wasn't informed until after we got Finn. I just hope and pray that nothing like HD comes up. If I had to do it all over again and the next time we are looking, we WILL get a dog from a reputable breeder who does clearances and does show their dogs. That doesn't mean I want a show dog, it means I want a dog that is to the standard of the breed. It is very important.
Edit: True it may be their business, but it wouldn't be fair to the puppy buyers now that you have this information and you don't share with your mother and do the right thing.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

It is true that what Chantel's mother does with her dog is really nobody's business but hers. And I echo the sentiment that hopefully she will share what she has read on this forum with her mother.

I want to go on record as a veterinarian who totally discourages clients from breeding their dogs. If I say it to golden owners, they feel that I think my dogs are superior and are the only ones who should be bred. When I say it to little dog owners whose dogs have luxating patellas, Legg Perthes, etc, they breed their dogs anyway. I tell anyone who wants to breed, what clearances need to be done. Most pet owners who breed labs only do hips(won't do elbows, eyes, heart). I also encourage them to go to dog shows, talk to reputable breeders/handlers, etc. The bottom line is that they really don't want to do that.... they want just "one litter." My favorite thing is after the dog is bred and pregnant, clients will say, "I don't want to lose her." Are you kidding me? You don't breed a dog without accepting some risk. I tell them about the time my bitch reabsorbed all but one pup. The pup died the last week in utero. At that time I was out about $1000 with 1/2 the stud fee and all of the testing. Nevermind my c-section was free because my husband did it!

I did have one situation with a dog I bred, where the vet encouraged the owner to bring him back to me because he was "so beautiful." The vet who apparently bred labs clearly wasn't familiar with the golden standard. He was a handsome 90 lb dog! Looked a bit like a blonde Newfie... and had a bit of a "make me" attitude. He's neutered now! I have his 60 lb Can Ch sister... unlike PG, we get a lot of diversity in our litters since my dogs have pretty low COI's.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> It is true that what Chantel's mother does with her dog is really nobody's business but hers. And I echo the sentiment that hopefully she will share what she has read on this forum with her mother.
> 
> I want to go on record as a veterinarian who totally discourages clients from breeding their dogs. If I say it to golden owners, they feel that I think my dogs are superior and are the only ones who should be bred. When I say it to little dog owners whose dogs have luxating patellas, Legg Perthes, etc, they breed their dogs anyway. I tell anyone who wants to breed, what clearances need to be done. Most pet owners who breed labs only do hips(won't do elbows, eyes, heart). I also encourage them to go to dog shows, talk to reputable breeders/handlers, etc. The bottom line is that they really don't want to do that.... they want just "one litter." My favorite thing is after the dog is bred and pregnant, clients will say, "I don't want to lose her." Are you kidding me? You don't breed a dog without accepting some risk. I tell them about the time my bitch reabsorbed all but one pup. The pup died the last week in utero. At that time I was out about $1000 with 1/2 the stud fee and all of the testing. Nevermind my c-section was free because my husband did it!
> 
> I did have one situation with a dog I bred, where the vet encouraged the owner to bring him back to me because he was "so beautiful." The vet who apparently bred labs clearly wasn't familiar with the golden standard. He was a handsome 90 lb dog! Looked a bit like a blonde Newfie... and had a bit of a "make me" attitude. He's neutered now! I have his 60 lb Can Ch sister... unlike PG, we get a lot of diversity in our litters since my dogs have pretty low COI's.


Mine also have pretty low COI's. I don't do tight linebreedings, and do look at phenotype. The tightest linebreeding I did was Lyric to Tiger - an Aruba son to an Aruba granddaughter. Got clear hips, hearts, and eyes out of it, BTW, and good longevity.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

Chantel said:


> Are you and PG going to get on every single person who has ever rescued a dog? or boughtten a dog without a family history? Just curious.


I am all for rescue. Not necessarily into people buying dogs without clearances, but some people just do not know any better. My family has been there.

I'm talking about breeding dogs without clearances. That is where I have an issue. I just hope that if your mom goes the breeding path that you will tell her what we have discussed here.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Chantel do you think the Golden Retriever Clubs and reputable breeders around the world recommend and do all these tests to establish a "fancy medical history" because they have an excess of cash lying around that they have nothing better to do with? No it is due for concern and love of the breed. Your mother can do as she pleases as you say, but others can judge her by her actions. 
Responsible breeding can be a difficult & heart breaking way to go. But it is so important to try to ensure the future of this breed. Those who adopt and rescue a poorly bred purebred or a mixed breed are to be commended. Those who knowing allow or promote those same breedings should be chastised.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Chantel*  
_Are you and PG going to get on every single person who has ever rescued a dog? or boughtten a dog without a family history? Just curious._

Nixietink's reply: 
I am all for rescue. Not necessarily into people buying dogs without clearances, but some people just do not know any better. My family has been there.

I'm talking about breeding dogs without clearances. That is where I have an issue. I just hope that if your mom goes the breeding path that you will tell her what we have discussed here. 


You know what, Chantel? Yeah, I am going do everything I can to educate every single person I can about the importance of _clearances. _It has nothing to do with rescue, other than indirectly. Most dogs in rescue are there because of irresponsible breeders. Many have hereditary health issues that owners could not cope with, emotionally or financially. Many were "boughtten without a family history" and the buyers had no idea what they were in for. Yep. They all deserve homes. Those dogs did not ask to be born. And as such, they are the responsibility of the "breeders", who should have taken them back, rather than allowing them to go to shelters or rescues. Better yet, they should never have been produced in the first place to end up like that.
And, if the opportunity arises, like it frequently does here on GRF, I'll most assuredly take the opportunity to do what I can to try to make sure that it happens less frequently. Case closed? I wish... it would mean that there are no longer dogs being produced like this, and we wouldn't have to discuss it.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Hey guys, can we not chase yet another person off the board?

I believe in the value of clearances as much as anybody, but I also believe that there is a time, a place, and an attitude with which you can educate somebody effectively. It's not enough simply to be right if your attitude alienates the individual to a degree that they simply ignore you and leave.

I'll raise my hand as a guilty party in plenty of situations in the past, but I'm learning more and trying to do better when new people come on the board. When a person comes on here with a different viewpoint than the mainstream of GRF, we need to be really careful to avoid the implication that we care about dogs and they don't.

I've been seeing this cycle fairly regularly lately, and I feel that more people will learn much more about the breed and about health if we can be friendlier and more supportive to new people. It doesn't mean that we can't disagree and educate, but I'm simply saying that confrontational attitudes produce confrontation, not change.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

AmbikaGR said:


> Chantel do you think the Golden Retriever Clubs and reputable breeders around the world recommend and do all these tests to establish a "fancy medical history" because they have an excess of cash lying around that they have nothing better to do with? No it is due for concern and love of the breed. Your mother can do as she pleases as you say, but others can judge her by her actions.
> Responsible breeding can be a difficult & heart breaking way to go. But it is so important to try to ensure the future of this breed. Those who adopt and rescue a poorly bred purebred or a mixed breed are to be commended. Those who knowing allow or promote those same breedings should be chastised.


Wow. I would "quote" myself, but I remember what I said. 
I only said the vet stated that my mom's dog would make a good breeding dog, and that she is not sure if she is getting him neutered or not. I only said that my mom can do what she pleases with her dog-after you all freaked out over me simply saying that we may or may not neuter him. Did I say we might breed him? Nope, don't remember typing that. Seems to me there is way too many judgemental, rude people on this forum. Bewittling my dog simply because I don't know his medical history past his mom and dad? I WAS 16 YEARS OLD WHEN I BOUGHT HIM, as I have stated many times before. Excuse me for falling in love with a cute, happy, healthy puppy. I love my dog and will love my dog rather or not he has medical issues, he was born regardless and needed a good home! There was nothing wrong with my dog at his last vet visit two months ago. You are trying to make me feel bad for buying a dog without medical history? Really? Quit posting on my threads if you're just going to be rude- this was a thread showing pictures of my dog and my mothers dog, did I ask anyone any questions? NO. Other people so rudely stuck their nose in my business. Honestly, I'm over this whole thing.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Bewittling my dog simply because I don't know his medical history past his mom and dad?


I don't think people are doing that....? 

They are just recommending tests and checks, because that's something we do with our dogs - whether we show them or not.

The comments about breeding happened because you said your mom is talking about deliberately breeding a mixed breed on the recommendation of her vet. I've seen a lot of vets and no responsible vet would recommend a breeding unless the dog is a purebred in excellent condition inside and out. And actually, most vets I know want puppies spayed and neutered at five months.

As far as belittling you for buying your dog - I'm definitely not doing that. I mentioned that first dog of mine. We loved him and thought he was perfect. That was right to the end when he was almost dying at home and he still found the strength to wag his tail when we all surrounded him that morning and talked to him. As much as losing him hurt (like a stab in the heart), we did not regret buying him. The only thing we would do differently was having his blood and urine checked every year. Routine health checks and tests, in other words. 

That is a seperate issue from encouraging people to breed unhealthy dogs without any thought to the consequences.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Chantel said:


> Wow. I would "quote" myself, but I remember what I said.
> I only said the vet stated that my mom's dog would make a good breeding dog, and that she is not sure if she is getting him neutered or not. I only said that my mom can do what she pleases with her dog-after you all freaked out over me simply saying that we may or may not neuter him. Did I say we might breed him? Nope, don't remember typing that. Seems to me there is way too many judgemental, rude people on this forum. Bewittling my dog simply because I don't know his medical history past his mom and dad? I WAS 16 YEARS OLD WHEN I BOUGHT HIM, as I have stated many times before. Excuse me for falling in love with a cute, happy, healthy puppy. I love my dog and will love my dog rather or not he has medical issues, he was born regardless and needed a good home! There was nothing wrong with my dog at his last vet visit two months ago. You are trying to make me feel bad for buying a dog without medical history? Really? Quit posting on my threads if you're just going to be rude- this was a thread showing pictures of my dog and my mothers dog, did I ask anyone any questions? NO. Other people so rudely stuck their nose in my business. Honestly, I'm over this whole thing.


Seriously, NO ONE has tried to make you feel bad for buying a dog without a medical history, or not knowing it, and to even suggest that anyone has is just silly. And no one has been rude. As for belittling your dog, that is just plain not true, either. Read the posts again - everyone has said that they are everything from "cute" to "gorgeous". 

You did intimate that Jesse might be bred, and knowledgeable people posted valid reasons why it isn't a good idea. And none "rudely". Your posts, frankly, have been more "rude" (and I wouldn't even call them that...) than those posted by others.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

When you post anything you are submitting yourself to the scrutiny of this entire board. When you inference that your mom was told to breed her dog by a vetinarian, of course people are going to respond. Some of these same people have had their dogs drop dead at 3 years old because of a genetic condition known as SAS. Imagine the pain that causes... imagine it was your dog. Would you want to help people avoid that fate?


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

CHANTEL, alot of us have bought dogs from byb, alot of people do, when i mention to my family, that i look for breeders that do , all the clearences, they do not really get it, they get from adds in newspapers, now they love, take good care of these dogs, they are inside dogs, they do it all right, but don't undertand what i mean, it is like going to apet store, to get a pup, people say, but they need homes to, but each time you buy one, there are more, those dogs they get from those mills, have lousy lives.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> Chantel do you think the Golden Retriever Clubs and reputable breeders around the world recommend and do all these tests to establish a "fancy medical history" because they have an excess of cash lying around that they have nothing better to do with? No it is due for concern and love of the breed. Your mother can do as she pleases as you say, but others can judge her by her actions.
> Responsible breeding can be a difficult & heart breaking way to go. But it is so important to try to ensure the future of this breed. Those who adopt and rescue a poorly bred purebred or a mixed breed are to be commended. Those who knowing allow or promote those same breedings should be chastised.





Chantel said:


> Wow. I would "quote" myself, but I remember what I said.
> I only said the vet stated that my mom's dog would make a good breeding dog, and that she is not sure if she is getting him neutered or not. I only said that my mom can do what she pleases with her dog-after you all freaked out over me simply saying that we may or may not neuter him. Did I say we might breed him? Nope, don't remember typing that. Seems to me there is way too many judgemental, rude people on this forum. Bewittling my dog simply because I don't know his medical history past his mom and dad? I WAS 16 YEARS OLD WHEN I BOUGHT HIM, as I have stated many times before. Excuse me for falling in love with a cute, happy, healthy puppy. I love my dog and will love my dog rather or not he has medical issues, he was born regardless and needed a good home! There was nothing wrong with my dog at his last vet visit two months ago. You are trying to make me feel bad for buying a dog without medical history? Really? Quit posting on my threads if you're just going to be rude- this was a thread showing pictures of my dog and my mothers dog, did I ask anyone any questions? NO. Other people so rudely stuck their nose in my business. Honestly, I'm over this whole thing.


Honestly at this point you are the one being rude. Please reread my post especially the part I have made red to highlight. No where in my post did I do any of what you accused me of.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Your last sentence in this post is what upset me the most. I only quoted the other person because it was the last post I read then replied to, so in reguards to the "belittle" comment, I apologize to them. I was talking to you PG. You know nothing about my dog, he may be just as healthy as your dogs that you think are better than every one elses, for all you know. And for the record, I don't care if his height is out of "standard golden retriever" norm. I don't care that he has a hair line down his nose either. To me it only makes him more unique, not a cookie-cutter dog like most. Have you ever heard of the study where mixed breed dogs may actually be healthier than pure bred dogs? Perhaps you could look into that. All I'm trying to say is I never asked for your opinion, and you are awful quick to judge. So until my dog comes up with a bunch of hereditary problems, I'd appreciate it if you keep your opinions to yourself. All I wanted to do on this post was share photos- and yet again it had to turn into a big argument with you. I see that you do have some people who will defend you on here, but there has been about 8 different members so far messaging me telling me I have unknowingly stumbled upon the forum bully, you have made some feel that "god forbid" they have a rescued dog, etc. 
The only reason I said that my mom can do what she wants with her dog- yes it is true, but I mainly said this because I didn't appreciate you automatically assuming every mixed breed/not much family history dog is no good.. and for the record I never said She was going to breed him. you jumped to conclusions. And I really don't care to argue with you any further. 






Pointgold said:


> Quote:​Originally Posted by *Chantel*
> _Are you and PG going to get on every single person who has ever rescued a dog? or boughtten a dog without a family history? Just curious._
> 
> Nixietink's reply:
> ...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Chantel said:


> Your last sentence in this post is what upset me the most. I only quoted the other person because it was the last post I read then replied to, so in reguards to the "belittle" comment, I apologize to them. I was talking to you PG. You know nothing about my dog, he may be just as healthy as your dogs that you think are better than every one elses, for all you know. And for the record, I don't care if his height is out of "standard golden retriever" norm. I don't care that he has a hair line down his nose either. To me it only makes him more unique, not a cookie-cutter dog like most. Have you ever heard of the study where mixed breed dogs may actually be healthier than pure bred dogs? Perhaps you could look into that. All I'm trying to say is I never asked for your opinion, and you are awful quick to judge. So until my dog comes up with a bunch of hereditary problems, I'd appreciate it if you keep your opinions to yourself. All I wanted to do on this post was share photos- and yet again it had to turn into a big argument with you. I see that you do have some people who will defend you on here, but there has been about 8 different members so far messaging me telling me I have unknowingly stumbled upon the forum bully, you have made some feel that "god forbid" they have a rescued dog, etc.
> The only reason I said that my mom can do what she wants with her dog- yes it is true, but I mainly said this because I didn't appreciate you automatically assuming every mixed breed/not much family history dog is no good.. and for the record I never said She was going to breed him. you jumped to conclusions. And I really don't care to argue with you any further.


My last sentence was: "Case closed? I wish... it would mean that there are no longer dogs being produced like this, and we wouldn't have to discuss it."

And by that, I was saying that there would no longer be dogs produced that end up in shelters and rescues, and dogs with preventable hereditary diseases.. Please explain to me - either you or those who have lied about my history re: rescue animals - how could anyone possibly not think that would be a good thing? In an ideal world, there wouldn't be a need for rescues and shelters. 

As for the rest, ANYone here who would ever say that I don't support rescue, or have made them feel that "god forbid" that they have rescued a dog is completely and entirely out of line. 
I've never, NOT ONCE, said that rescue dogs or shelter dogs or mixed breeds are no good, and anyone who says that I have is a liar. I've spent tens of thousands of dollars to SAVE dogs, and that is well known. It is true that I, and many others here, do not believe that mixed breed dogs should be INTENTIONALLY bred, for a profit, nor should any dog, purebred or otherwise, without benefit of health clearances. I am very familiar with the myth that mixed breed dogs are healthier, thank you. It's exactly that - a myth. 


You have totally twisted what I, and others here, have written, to make yourself appear a victim of the Evil PG. It's crap, actually, but quite the norm with some.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Right, well I guess there's no arguing with a know it all. I apologize, I wasn't aware that you are a myth buster.
You've had an arrogant attitude from the beginning, then for a few minutes I thought you were actually going to be nice with your first comment on this thread-I was wrong. I didn't twist anything, a lot of people feel the way that I do. So perhaps you should work on the way you words things. 





Pointgold said:


> My last sentence was: "Case closed? I wish... it would mean that there are no longer dogs being produced like this, and we wouldn't have to discuss it."
> 
> And by that, I was saying that there would no longer be dogs produced that end up in shelters and rescues, and dogs with preventable hereditary diseases.. Please explain to me - either you or those who have lied about my history re: rescue animals - how could anyone possibly not think that would be a good thing? In an ideal world, there wouldn't be a need for rescues and shelters.
> 
> ...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Chantel said:


> Right, well I guess there's no arguing with a know it all. I apologize, I wasn't aware that you are a myth buster.
> You've had an arrogant attitude from the beginning, then for a few minutes I thought you were actually going to be nice with your first comment on this thread-I was wrong. I didn't twist anything, a lot of people feel the way that I do. So perhaps you should work on the way you words things.


That's nice.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I don't think the issue is so much what your dogs look like - they could be purple and have two tails for all I care on the matter. They are nice looking goldens, and sound very sweet and I know your family loves them.

BUT...

There are thousands of nice looking, sweet dogs looking for homes, some with days to live if they're not pulled. Many of those were produced with the best of intentions of finding them good homes, often by people who didn't know what was involved and in many cases at the last minute homes backed out or the pup went home and things didn't work out and the 'breeder' wasn't prepared to take the dog back or didn't remain in contact.

Some went to new homes and health or other issues popped up, wasn't expected, the parents were healthy looking so who knew, yet the new owners weren't prepared to deal with expensive vet bills.

What I'm trying to say is if your mom wants to breed, that's one thing, but do your part and print out or send her the information she should have on clearances, screening homes and so on so it's done RIGHT. Doesn't matter where the dogs came from or what's been done in the past, in today's world with the number of dogs needing homes and in many cases not finding them in time, it's critical that we all, as dog lovers, do everything we can to prevent unplanned/unwanted/unhealthy litters.

If you are offended, keep in mind there's not many members on here who have not cried over the loss of a dog they have never seen in person who has died too young or suffers on a daily basis because of poor breeding practices. There is a lot of information and support here, I hope you use it.


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