# Dog aggressive rescue



## lvngold (Jun 1, 2005)

Robin,


I have been thinking about you and your pups. I am sorry to hear you have been having some issues again. Have you tried the spray bottle when she gets aggressive. When Beau was in advanced classes there was a chow that was showing severe signs of aggression at the beginning and by the end of class he was wonderful. The owner pretty much had a spray bottle of water handy at all times and whenever she would hear a growl, or see his tail go down, she would give him a quick squirt. Could that work for you? Also works to separate fighting too. 

Julie


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Hi Julie, 

The spray bottle doesn't phase her. It's like she goes into a "zone" and becomes an attack machine. I can't understand why the set-back after so many weeks of great behavior. 

On a brighter note, I saw that you might be interested in another rescue? How fun!!!

Robin


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## lvngold (Jun 1, 2005)

Hey Robin,

See my post of the other forum. That did not work out. Heartworm + and host of other problems. Don't think I am quite ready for that yet.

Hope things get better

Julie


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Sorry to hear that! Things happen for reason.


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

Hey Robin,My wife and I take Goldens(and other dogs) that nobody else wants.This means that we get some real problems,health and otherwise.I'm pasting from a different forum for you;


shaneamber said:


> Your Golden is confused on who is the boss.You need to establish your alpha position so he knows who is in charge.Then he will listen and be eager to obey.
> My father taught me this trick (which I have used several times with GREAT success),You MUST be serious through out this action or your Golden will think you are playing.
> Grab him,flop him over on his back and bite his throat.Not too hard,we don't want blood.Hold him down and continue your bite until he surrenders.When he has stopped moving and has given up,let go and help him up.Lavish him with praise and lots of love.
> You will see an immediate change for the better.Just a stern look or vocal tone will be all the discipline you will need.He will train up very easy and will be a wonderful companion.
> Shane


Notice I said BITE the THROAT.I don't growl or look them in the face,that is the way to challenge them.If you bite them and they give up,you will have won.I've had to hold the bite for several minutes to win with some dogs.I'm 6'2" and 270 pounds,I can do it alone,you may need help to hold yours down,but thats OK as long as you hold the bite until it gives in.
I know a lot of people don't like this idea,but if it means giving up a loved pet,well I'd give it a try.
You might need to wear heavy leather gloves or even use a muzzle.(use a muzzle only if really needed).
She also may be over protective of Charlie,has he been sick or feeling poorly lately?
Either way,you need to take complete control now.
If you need to talk with me,send me an e-mail and I'll send my phone number.
Shane


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Thanks, Shane. That post looks familiar! But I had no idea you had such a marvelous background. Bless you for doing what you do! 

Jenna has never been one to allow us to roll her over -- not even for a belly rub. I tried that once and almost got bitten. I'm not against your technique, but I'm not confident about trying it myself. 

Charlie is a healthy little guy, whose only goal in life seems to be staying out of the way of the two 50+ pound dogs when they rough house. His only role in all this seems to be that Jenna is protective of him. 

Since posting this thread, someone has mentioned the possibility of thyroid problems. Jenna has always had a thin coat, which of course is a sign. On doing some research online, I've learned that sudden agressiveness, and schizoid behavior, are also symptoms. PLUS goldens are prone to thyroid disease. 

Who knows? We may be trying to handle a medical problem behaviorally. In that case, we're beating our heads against the wall. 

My next step is a call to our vet to schedule a TSH and Free T4 test.


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

Robin,
Quote;Since posting this thread, someone has mentioned the possibility of thyroid problems. Jenna has always had a thin coat, which of course is a sign. On doing some research online, I've learned that sudden agressiveness, and schizoid behavior, are also symptoms. PLUS goldens are prone to thyroid disease. 

Who knows? We may be trying to handle a medical problem behaviorally. In that case, we're beating our heads against the wall. 

My next step is a call to our vet to schedule a TSH and Free T4 test.;

Yes,that would be the first step.May I also suggest a blood sugar test.I know when a diabetic has low blood sugar they can just snap and get very nasty.I have friends with a diabetic dog,they give her shots twice a day.
Please let us know what happens,
Shane


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Sounds like a full blood panel is in order. Thanks for the advice, Shane!


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## Love4Goldies (Oct 3, 2005)

Alot of it has to do with a jealousy problem. Especially with your rescue dog, he finally has a good loving home and feels threatened by a new dog. (your other dog was no problem because it was already in the home when it came) I agree with Shane, You have to establish that you are the alpha. I do the same thing but I never bit i would get them on the ground and with my fingers i would dig into the neck with my face close to them and continue saying no (in a harsh voice) when the aggressive behavior surfaced. When the dogs are near each other watch their body language. You can usually tell what is about to happen before it does. After a few times of you asserting your dominance the word no in the same voice should have the same effect. Don't give up...she'll eventually learn the other dog is there to stay.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Thanks for the advice. We are firm with our "no" and we watch Jenna's body language constantly. Last night, I prevented another attack that way. I drug her off growling and trying to lunge at Brandy. At the time, Brandy had been cuddling with my husband. He's ready to return her to the rescue group if we don't get this resolved soon. For those of you who don't know the whole story, we went back and forth with keeping her for more than a month because -- with these aggression issues -- we thought she might be better off as a single dog. And we didn't think it was fair to Brandy to constantly be in fear. Then things suddenly changed for the better. Now we're not so sure again.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

So the question I gotta ask is... what happens when no one is around to stop an attack?? Are there no incidences? Is one or both crated? Will this always be the case?
I'm certainly no big expert on aggressive dog behavior (especially aggressive rescues) but I am going to suggest you follow through with the blood work panel (the low thyroid theory sounds like a very real possibility). Usually 'alpha-related' problems arise between dogs of the approximate same physical size, sex and personality types, and often ages are similar (and that's certainly not the case here, right?). I put the quotes around alpha because spats are not always about who is the TOP-dog but rather about the 'pecking order' of those under the top dog... and my best understanding of how this works is its not up to the top dog to determine the pecking order of those in the pack... rather they must determine this order for themselves. Though it goes against our own human sensitivities, dogs usually sort out pecking order by brute force... which is a combination of physical abilities and strength of personality (pushiness or "how bad do you want it?"). This means that if you interfere with the natural process by elevating a lesser dog to a higher status (punishing the aggressor/ coddling the poor 'victim'), the superior dog will be sure to punish the usurper with much greater ferocity next time (to reinforce his/her superior status in the pecking order). And this will most likely begin to happen when you are not around to protect the underdog.

Its a common human trait to want to protect the (human) underdogs in life (in fact, I believe the best among us dedicate a lifetime to this noble pursuit)... however when it comes to dogs, they only understand the concept of a pecking order... in fact it offers them comfort to know 'their place' in the pack order and it allows the pack to work more smoothly/efficiently in the long run... its the way nature intented the dog pack to function and its worked for hundreds of thousands of years. We need to respect this process by offering the more superior dog the first 'hello' petting when we arrive home and put down his/her food dish before the others, the second best spot on the couch (of course, you take the best), etc... Now not all 'middle' dogs are this particular about pack position but some are and must get this type of preferred treatment otherwise the lower dog(s) will 'pay' for it when you're not there to see it or protect them... and it could escalate to the point of drawing blood. Please do not put your dogs through this... if it turns out not to be a medically-related cause for the aggression, then either respect the natural pecking order or unfortunately Jenna must go... and hopefully find a new home where she will be an only dog (and thus relegated to Omega status) where she can be her happy/contented self without all the pack-status stress.

These are just my thoughts and I remind you again, I am no expert in these things, though I have had friends (some real from the physical world and some 'virtual'/internet forums types) with dog packs in such turmoil and so I know what worked in those cases and what didn't. Take as much or as little of this as you like, remember I'm just trying to help.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Monomer, 

I appreciate your advice, and I respect what you have to say. Thwarting Jenna's efforts to show dominance may part of the issue , and I'm sure we're also dealing with jealousy. I can see that we've made the mistake of coddling Brandy when she's terrified by Jenna. 

This is the second time we've been a 3-dog household. The first time was with a 13-year-old female shih tzu, a 1-year-old male shih tzu and a young female golden. The pecking order was established quickly and with very little disruption. The oldest dog ruled the roost even from her death bed. Charlie (now age 7) is the only remaining dog from that trio. 

We've tried to let Brandy (10 months) and Jenna (7 years) work it out between themselves as much as possible, except when it looks like Brandy is in physical jeopardy. Having our puppy pinned to the ground with a fierce dog at her throat ain't gonna cut it. Jenna can assert her dominance but she also needs to respect the house rules. 

They are never left alone together without supervision. We use kennels for all three when we're not home. 

I've ordered Jenna's blood work, and we're hoping this will explain at least part of her aggression. 

But you are also right that ours may not be the best home for Jenna if she's so frustrated. We've owe it to her to look for any physical causes. If this cannot be resolved, we will need to find a better environment for her. 

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts!


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

One question about aggression and dominance -- if Brandy isn't fighting back, or for that matter doing anything at the time of the aggression that can be interpreted as trying to usurp Jenna's position in the pack -- how can that be the cause of the problem?


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

That's actually the point I was trying to get across... its not Brandy's actions that's precipitating the aggression, its you and your family's treatment of the two. If you treat Brandy as Jenna's superior then Jenna will keep trying to re-assert her dominance over Brandy (as if Brandy had something to do with it). A true top-dog (in this case the real alpha's are you and your husband) will respect the pack's naturally determined order of things... meaning if Jenna is above Brandy, you must first offer all good things to Jenna while Brandy waits her turn and if she can't and 'butts in' then Jenna will set her straight but if you interfere then Jenna doesn't hold you (the alphas) responsible because it appears to her that you actually 'see' Brandy as her superior so Jenna will just have to try harder to get Brandy to back-off and defer to her so the alpha's will finally 'get it'. But human nature tells us all lower members of a group should be of equal status... that's the rub. If you cannot see yourselves favoring Jenna over Brandy in everything then its best to find another home for Jenna. Let's just hope its a chemical imbalance thing that's causing the aggression and not as you term a "jealousy" thing (of course to a dog its not about jealousy, its all about the natural order of things). In a pack there is no such thing as equals, everyone has a different rank... by knowing who's over who, much future fighting over resources is avoided... this set-up works well for a pack of dogs in the harsh unforgiving environment of nature... humans are another story.


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

My experience certainly doesn't make me an expert on the inside workings of a dog.My wife and I started out with one dog and then added a second dog in 1978.We stayed with two Goldens until the early 90's,when we had just one Flatcoat until 1998.Since then we have been a 4 or more(never less than 4 ) dog family.
I have never seen what has been put forth,except for slight jockeying for petting position.We take in mostly the dogs that are one step from the needle,the most violent,uncontrollable dogs that nobody wants.
From what I have witnessed personally,when I take the alpha position,with whatever method used,there is no fighting between the members of the pack.
What other's might have read or heard,I'm sure applies to wild packs with little or no human contact or with packs that are not domesticated.
We lived out in the country for 7 years.People would drop off dogs of every breed,thinking I guess that they would survive on the farms in the area.These dogs would band together so they could survive the coyotes and bobcats.I've seen beautiful dogs become wild killers when there is no human contact and control.
I believe that Jenna may have a medical reason for the aggression problem.If not,it is a mental problem that needs to be addressed with a swift and no holds barred action.That is what I explained earlier.I have used it many times with complete success.The only other way is to get rid of the dog,that doesn't cure the problem,it just makes it someone else's.
I don't feel that what has been learned from canines in the wild can be applied to canines that have human contact on a everyday basis.Yes,I have seen dogs so terribly abused that no one can domesticate them,but I have also seen humans the same way.
I don't write this to offend anyone or even cast a shadow on anyone's knowledge.I feel that perhaps a simple problem is being over analyzed and distant possibilities that have little chance of appearing are being discussed.
Yes I agree that if Jenna can't be controlled,she needs to be given to a different home.But I also feel that the simple methods should be tried first before giving her up.
Shane


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Shane if you go over to that "other" forum (the one that banned me) and search the archives you will find a thread by a woman from the UK who had almost the exact same problem Brandy's Mom has described. I made the same comments... see what solution worked for her. About a half dozen years ago on the American Eskimo discussion group, the same problems were occurring, the owner's acceptance of the pack order was the solution there. A friend of mine at work had two littermates... same problem emerge at around 1-1/2 years and escalated to the point of a near death match while he was at work... he finally had to get rid of one. I know many multi-dog households that do not experience such struggles for dominance... rather than conclude that these people have the answer and the other owners with dog problem do not... I really think its situation dependant (very dependant upon the temperaments of all involved). I'm leary of attempting to solve every aggression situation with an Alpha-roll or Scruff-shake or some other type of physically violent technique. I've seen truely violent dogs (sentry attack dogs trained to kill) and I won't lie to you, they scared the hell outta me. In the military, I dealt with the SP K-9 sentry dog handlers on a nightly basis. These were all very large German Shepard dogs trained by literally being hanged with a choke chain on the end of a leash stretched over the handler's shoulder until the dog quit struggling because he was passing out... only then was the dog released. They practice the removal of positive punishment to reinforce the desired behaviors... to kill when ordered to do so. These dogs had 100% recall even from a commanded attack... they instantly obey with a single word and appeared to idolize their handler. Though these methods work extremely well, I however would not recommend them to the woman who is having a behavioral problem with her Rottweiler. The same as I would not routinely recommend a woman attempt to Alpha-roll her aggressive 80-pound Golden as it is trying to attack another dog... if that woman got mauled because she couldn't handle a truely aggressive large dog, I would feel very bad indeed. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, I'm just saying why take the chance. It's easy to use force if you're capable of backing it up and the dog is really more bluffing than anything... I can guarantee that even you (all 6'2" and 280-lbs) couldn't Alpha-roll one of those 125-lbs sentry dogs.
Neither of us have seen this Jenna, nor have we observe her in an aggressive situation nor do we know the size or physical condition of Brandy's Mom, so I'd be a little careful about just telling someone to put themselves into what may be real physically dangerous situation.
And, NO, I'm not picking a fight and I'm not 'dissing' you or your advice... I'm just trying to put a little caution out there, buddy.

EDIT: and keep in mind that there are crazy dogs (schizophrenic) just as there are crazy people and no amount of alpha-rolling will have any effect on those dogs.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

You have no idea how much I appreciate this discussion! 

To fill in some blanks, Jenna is always fed, walked and pottied first. We started doing that immediately after she came to us because she walked into our home like she owned the joint. She gave a stern warning "back off" growl to our other two, and it was like the toughest gunslinger in the West had come to town! We thought we were doing all we could to support her position in the pack. 

Jenna is stocky and very strong. I'm 5'5" and it's clear to me she'd win if we ever tossled. 

When she first came to us, her attacks on Brandy were constant. On the advice of our animal behaviorist/trainer, we asserted our alpha role by keeping her tethered to me constantly, kenneling her whenever we kenneled the other two (primarily at night even though Jenna has excellent house manners), and by keeping the spray bottle of water handy. 

We were in constant contact with the rescue group, and they were looking for other homes for her. But the attacks went away, Jenna and Brandy became friends, and we went ahead and adopted her. 

Since starting this thread a few days ago, the two have resumed their play. The first thing they do each morning is lick each other's faces. 

So after 2-3 days of relapse, it seems all is right with the world. I'm hoping the blood tests will reveal why this is happening. If not, then we know we will have to contact the rescue group and give her up. Because we'll never know when/if it will happen again. I'd hate for us to let down our guard and have Brandy get seriously hurt.


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

Monomer,I'm having computer problems right now so this has to be short.
All I'm saying is that there are less complex solutions that can be tried rather than a bunch of what if's or could bes.
I'd never try what I explained on a wild dog or a trained K9.
I don't think that you can compare a 70 pound Golden to what you have discribed,apples and oranges as it were.
I'll hopefully be back with a fixed computer by tonight.
Shane
BTW monomer,I don't know what forum banned you,but that's their loss and our gain.That is the wonderful thing about American ideals,people are allowed to have different points of view and still be friends.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

*A photo of our gang*

Here's a photo of our gang, taken last night. The legs are hubby's (face cropped out to protect the innocent!). That's Brandy draped over his legs -- a very typical position for her. Jenna is looking on, and Charlie is curled up on the back of the couch.


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## goldenfrodo (Sep 1, 2005)

Its always a problem with a Rescue as you dont know her history.
I agree that you should get her checked at the vet first.
When I want to show a dog who'se boss I get hold of them either side of their neck and really shake their head. Thats how a mother dsciplines her puppies. Its no use shouting at dogs who are fighting as they only think you're encouraging them.
Had to laugh at the mental image of Shane biting one of his dogs. Sorry.

Good luck
Barbara


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

shaneamber said:


> ...I don't think that you can compare a 70 pound Golden to what you have discribed,apples and oranges as it were...


It would seem so because every Golden I've met has a certain sweetness of character even if its hidden under a growly facade... but I gotta tell you, on that "other forum" another UK woman mentioned trying to rehabilitate an unusually large Air Force trained sentry dog... this was a Golden! (which I found hard to believe for a number of reasons, including the obvious... this was a Golden!) By the same token I remember a few years ago a colleague of mine had 2 Cockers (one blonde, one black) and a Lab. Well one of the Cockers would occassionally attack the others and even my friend... they tried alpha-rolls and scruff-shakes to no avail. After that Cocker had badly bitten one of his children, the animal was put-down. Only later was it learned that some blonde Cocker lines have a genetic link to these attacking fits... and yes it was the blonde Cocker doing the attacking. So I'm thinking even if a dog is of a gentle breed, that alone doesn't guarantee that true mental problems cannot be a source of aggression.


shaneamber said:


> ...That is the wonderful thing about American ideals,people are allowed to have different points of view and still be friends.


Amen... its what keeps free societies and peoples in general from completely 'going off the deep-end'... when open expression of thoughts, feelings, and ideas are censored strange things can happen (Nazi Germany comes to mind as an example). You do realize forums are a direct reflection of its owner/administrator because in essence they are dictatorships... and that other forum was very controlled (mostly from behind the scenes), very stiffling to say the least. This forum is a totally different atmosphere, much more open, its a nice community... that's why I stay.


Brandy's Mom said:


> ...Jenna is always fed, walked and pottied first. We started doing that immediately after she came to us because she walked into our home like she owned the joint. She gave a stern warning "back off" growl to our other two, and it was like the toughest gunslinger in the West had come to town! We thought we were doing all we could to support her position in the pack.
> 
> Jenna is stocky and very strong. I'm 5'5" and it's clear to me she'd win if we ever tossled.
> 
> When she first came to us, her attacks on Brandy were constant. On the advice of our animal behaviorist/trainer, we asserted our alpha role by keeping her tethered to me constantly, kenneling her whenever we kenneled the other two (primarily at night even though Jenna has excellent house manners), and by keeping the spray bottle of water handy...


Thanks, you've made your situation much clearer to me. Evidently you have done a lot to try and deal with pack order already. Its tough getting a 7-year old dog and not really knowing her background or genetics and trying to work though her behavioral problems. Bless you. She looks sweet enough (in that picture) but I can't help but notice Brandy appears to be physically similar in size. Hope the blood work offers some explanations. Maybe kenneling Jenna whenever she cannot be watched is a possible answer... I only say this because a few weeks ago I was introduced to a woman with 2 rescue border collies who appear to get along with each other. However after our agility session we all played fetch with tennis balls (3 balls at a time) and those 2 BCs got into a real serious sounding fight several times over a tennis ball and over the water bowl. The owner would immediately pull them apart and throw the perceived aggressor to the ground in an alpha-roll (both BCs were rather small, about 30some pounds) and she obviously had their full respect as they slinked around her but eventually another squabble would break out. I asked her how long this had been going on... since she got them over a year ago. I also noticed whenever they could not be supervised they were in crates. Is this a 'good' life for those dogs? I'll just bet those BCs think so, better than what they had before I'm sure.
Anyway keep us posted...


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Thanks all. Brandy is a good bit taller than Jenna, but so far about 8 pounds lighter. That will change because Brandy has yet to fill out. 

Fingers crossed that we get some answers with the bloodwork!


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

Hey Barbara,I'm still picking out fur every so often and before anyone asks,no we don't have photos! At least not anymore! 
Monomer,years back I was offered a large male Golden who had been terribly abused.No one could even get close.I sat on the floor outside his run for 2 days,throwing treats in to him.He only stopped barking and growling long enough to eat the goodies.They had to put him down.What a shame,but it was the best thing for him.
We have a Border Collie,from the shelter, and he and Sam go at each other like someones going to die.They growl and snap,but it's all fun and games.

If we were all the same and we all thought the same way,life would be boring and not worth living.It's our differences that make it all worth while.
Here's to all my friend's:rockon: :bigangel: 
Shane


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

I've got an idea, why not just place this golden in a home where no other dogs are present, as well as no children. It seems to me this is esculating and not getting better. With some dogs depending on there prior treatment rehabilitation doesn't always work as we would like it too, it suppresses it at times but I always wondered if it truely solves the problem completely especially when all it takes is one trigger and the dog slides back sometimes worse then it was in the beginning. Sometimes I think removing the trigger is the easiest answer of all and then one could slowly and over time at a distance do this as the dog begins to be more comfortable with the situations.

It could just be this golden was never brought up around other dogs or socialized correctly, if younger I think the odds are better then if the dog is older because by then its pretty hard wired in them.

Oh, I don't mean to hurt your feelings in no way by mentioning replacement for this golden, its just that it may be less stressful to the golden, as well as less stressful too your younger golden and it may infact save this older golden from getting worse, or worse yet from a major attack on your younger golden, or another dog or even one of the family members.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Goldndust: When we first met Jenna, we were told she was not aggressive. When she proved otherwise, we signed her over to a rescue group to find a one-dog home for her but we continued to foster her and work with her. She improved dramatically so we decided to re-adopt her. 

We understand that if her behavior doesn't improve, or if it's not due to a physical cause, it will be best to give her back to the rescue group. We love her and don't want to do that, but it may be the most realistic option. 

Thanks for caring.


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## mojosmum (May 20, 2005)

Brandy's Mom - My heart breaks for you and everyone in your family right now. You've had some tough decisions to make with more to come. I have a small idea about what you're going through because I was in a similar position. Unfortunately I had to put my beloved Roxy down 2 years ago this November and I still grieve for her. 

Prayers for you as you try to help this poor dog. 

Hugs


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Mojosmum -- sorry to hear about Roxy! How old was she?


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

*Update!*

With this update, you will be able to see more clearly why we are so conflicted about Jenna. 

Not only are they playing well together again, but today I caught them laying face to face. Jenna was quietly licking Brandy's face and paws. 

This just doesn't seem like the same dog whose eyes glaze over, and who starts frothing at the mouth as she attacks.


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## mojosmum (May 20, 2005)

Brandy's Mom said:


> Mojosmum -- sorry to hear about Roxy! How old was she?


The best we can figure is she was around 5, the same as Mojo. We rescued her from a no-kill shelter and she had been there 8 months. She had been found wandering around the town. They told me she was a rotti/shephard mix. I saw a lot of hound in her face. She didn't know how to play, she was fine with just Mojo but he was still bored because Roxy wouldn't play with him. She was also NOT good with the female puppy up the road. I had Sadie in here twice but was very naive about what was going on. 

We rescued Zoe from the same shelter about a year later. She had also been there 8 months but she had been taken in pregnant and had her litter there. All 6 puppies went but not her. She's Terrier/husky?/wire-haired pointer?/australian shephard. She weighs all of 45 lbs and has ice blue eyes. Roxy weighed in at 55 lbs of muscle. 

Zoe was VERY high strung when we got her. The yard wasn't fenced yet so I had to leash them when I took them out. Once the yard was fenced they could roam freely. Whenever Zoe would run to the fence and bark at the neighbours cows Roxy would attack her. Whenever Zoe would throw herself at the windows to get those dreaded cats that were walking up the driveway, Roxy would attacked. Whenever Zoe was being yelled at Roxy would attack. When there was an attack it was always bloody and vicious and it was ALWAYS Roxy that got hurt. Zoe was too swift and wiry with the terrier temperment. Zoe NEVER started a fight but would also NEVER back down from one. Poor Mojo just backed off and waited by the sidelines. This went on for two years. The fights were excalating and the squirt bottle wasn't doing it. At the last fight I COULDN"T separate them and Hal had to help pull them apart. I struggled for a year on what to do. Obedience training didn't help. Keeping them separate wasn't an option. This house doesn't allow for that. Keeping Zoe in the crate and the other two out wasn't an answer either because Roxy attacked the wire door on the crate. I couldn't figure out why the front of the crate was always soaking wet until I actually saw Roxy attack it with Zoe inside. Saliva was EVERYWHERE! and the door was broken. The vet wouldn't give me any help..........I went to the other vet in town and asked for their help. They gave me pamphlets on aggression. We're on a pension so specialized training wasn't an option. Giving her back to the shelter also wasn't an option as they were in the process of closing. How could I, in good conscience, have her go to another home where there might be little children or visitors with pets. 

When we took her in on that last day my vet finally told me he thought I was doing the right thing. It was in November but the weather was sunny. I took her for a long walk that morning before heading to the vet. Jim likes to put the dogs to sleep in the backyard of the clinic if it's possible. There are a lot of trees around and the grass is soft and sweet. We found a ray of sunshine and I had her lay there after she got her pre-med. She put her head on my lap and we stayed that way for a long while with the sun warming us and me talking to her. When she got the final injection I was talking to her and touching her and telling her I was so sorry I failed her. I will never forget my Roxy Roo. 

Within 1 day Mojo and Zoe were the best of friends again and able to play fight and have a ball. They chased each other and teased and snuggled together. They are the best of friends. I am the only one who misses my girl. She can still bring me to tears just by thinking of her. She was so needy and had come so far but unfortunately, not far enough. I was also not smart enough or experienced enough to help her. I've learned so much by being on these forums. I wish I had that knowledge two years ago. 

I know Roxy is waiting for me at the Rainbow Bridge.


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

Donna,You brought me to tears with this story.Sometimes no matter how hard we try,we can't save them all.Roxy will live on in your heart and with what she taught you.It took great love and total unselfishness to let her go.
I know in my heart that you did what was right for Roxy and that she will be waiting for you at the Bridge.
You must believe,
Shane


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## mojosmum (May 20, 2005)

Thanks you Shane for your kind words. 

I've had so many animals throughout the course of my life but this little girl just touched me in a very special way. I've always taken in the "broken-wings" be it human or animal and helped as much as I could but I feel so inadequate and guilty about her. 

On the positive side, Mojo and Zoe are the greatest joys in my life. There isn't a day that I don't "belly laugh" with the antics of these two crazy pups. They give unconditional love and expect nothing in return, except their cookies :lol: They are truly one of the wonders of nature. Right now they're playing together over a rope toy I bought yesterday. It's the new "IT'S MINE --- NO, IT'S MINE" toy. 

When I'm sitting (wherever) and one of them comes over and places their head on my lap and looks at me with those trusting and loving eyes I melt. They heal me. What a gift they give me every single day.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

I'm also very moved by your story. When these guys wrap their paws around your heart, it's hard to gain perspective on the situation. I expect the results of the blood test in 10 days. We want to be as well informed as possible before we have to make a decision that could break our hearts.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

A couple of new developments. First, Jenna's thyroid test came back slightly abnormal. Our vet initially wanted to wait 6 months and re-test. But when I re-stated that her future depended on these results, he admitted that behavior changes are considered an early indicator of thyroid problems. So he's putting her on a low, non-therapeutic, dose of medication to see if it helps. 

Meanwhile, I've discovered a category of behavior often seen in rescues called "rage syndrome" or "idiopathic visciousness syndrome". This also seems to fit because it says the dogs become glassy-eyed and often make unprovoked vicious attacks. This is treated with anti-anxiety drugs. I've written to an expert in that field, and hope to correspond with her about our situation. 

I'd like to think we will be able to keep Jenna with us. Her rehabilitation has been a long road but she's acting more like a typical golden every day. All of which makes these bouts of aggression so disheartening.


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## lvngold (Jun 1, 2005)

I guess, all things considering that is great news. Hopefully you can correspond with this person and they can give you additional information. 

I am glad the Vet decided to go ahead and place her on the thryoid meds and hopefully you will see some improvement. 

Beau, Dolly and I have been thinkin of you and Jenna and Brandi. How is Brandi doing? Much better I hope. Update when you can. 

Julie


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Thanks for asking, Julie. Brandy's symptoms haven't changed. Our wood floors are starting to buckle from her frequent accidents, even though the poor kid tries to hold it after ringing the doggie doorbells. Sometimes, she needs to go every 5-10 minutes. 

Last summer, her vet told us that Auburn University had ruled out all possible anatomical causes. This morning when I pressed him on it, he admitted she could still have something wrong (like a kink or stricture) that causes the urine to pool and bacteria to grow. Of course, two weeks ago, he blamed her condition on urinary crystals and behavior. I think he's beyond his expertise. 

On my own, I found a top veterinary urologist in Tennessee who has agreed to offer advice to my vet. My husband and I agree that if our vet doesn't approach us with new diagnostic within the next week, we're switching to a clinic clear across town where all the doctors are board certified specialists.


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## lvngold (Jun 1, 2005)

*I am so sorry*

to hear you are having such problems. With both Jenna and Brandi with issues and then you get hurt. Wow. How is your knee? I am sorry I did not even think to ask about you in the other post. My mind is really out to lunch I guess. 

I really think a new Vet may be in order, I shutter to think what you have spent already. Something is wrong and someone needs to find the problem. I am glad that you are home with her. I am flipping out because, this will be the first day Beau and Dolly have been by themselves all day. DD always has a break between work and school and runs home to let them out for a potty break, today her class ran over and she was not able to get home. I have appointments scheduled all afternoon and I live 30 minutes away, so they are on their own. Beau will be fine, but Dolly I am not so sure about. I will let you know if I have buckled hardwood when I get home. 

God Bless and take care of yourself and your babies.

Julie

BTW, started Dolly on the fence and so far she has run through it twice. I think it needs to be turned up and she definitely will remain on leash during 
the training. I still have her on the 20ft lead.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Dolly the darling fence jumper! She just doesn't understand what's good for her, does she? Did you ever get her microchipped? If not, the Humane Society does it for about $10. 

The knee is better. Still not good enough to go strolling with my threesome, but I'm betting I'll be at least 90% within another week. 

I'll be anxious to hear how she does. She'll probably follow Beau's lead and behave herself.


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## mojosmum (May 20, 2005)

{{{{Brandy's Mom}}}}

Keep your chin up! Hopefully you get this straightened out with Brandy AND Jenna. :crossfing 

Glad to hear your knee is also getting better.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Thanks. I sometimes wonder why we managed to get two with such problems. We certainly didn't set out to have "special needs" dogs. But then at night I look at them, asleep and content, Brandy snuggled tightly into me, and I know. They found us. Everything is as it should be.


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