# Dog left alone, what do we do? Help!!



## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

You can't leave a young puppy alone for 10 hours a day. No, that is totally wrong and you are right to be concerned. 

Do you have family or friends that can help you out until he/she is ready for daycare?


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I agree...can you come home at lunch? Or have someone come in and spend time with her/him and let them out. At that age they need to go out about every 30 minutes.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Welcome to the forum! Hope we can provide some useful info for you!

First off, six weeks is too young. A *good* breeder won't send a pup home until eight weeks, sometimes seven at the earliest.

Secondly, if you're both gone 10 hours a day, you won't have much time to spend with a pup/dog, so I'm wondering if this really is the best time for you to add a dog to your family? It can be done, but it will mean that the vast majority of your non-working/non-sleeping time will be committed to the dog - training, playing, etc. Even when she goes to daycare all day (which I'm not a huge fan of -- longterm exposure to high arousal levels from running around all day at day care has been documented to frequently contribute to behavior problems), you'll still need to spend a huge percentage of your non-working/non-sleeping time with her.

Again, it can totally be done, but be honest and make sure it's really something you want to commit to.... not going to dinner after work b/c your dog needs your time; getting out with the dog on weekends vs. going to the movies, etc.

As for what to do with the pup... set up an x-pen in your kitchen with bedding or an open crate in one corner and newspaper in the other. If somebody can come in mid-day to play with and walk the pup, that's great, but she'll need an appropriate toilet area for several months before she can learn to hold it all day while you're gone. My biggest concern is the age of the pup when you get her. Makes me question the "quality" of the "breeder". You should also clarify (with physical proof - see the certs, etc.) that the parents had the proper health tests prior to breeding and how they scored.

-Stephanie


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Well 10 hours is quite a while for an itty bitty young puppy....the problem is that puppy isn't going to be able to hold her bladder and there won't be anyone to potty train her. Plus...she'll sleep so much during the day , she might be up all night. That isn't going to be very good for you. 

Six weeks is pretty young to be taking puppy home....they should be with their litter mates to about 8 weeks if possible. Is the breeder sending all the pups home at 6 weeks? 

It would be nice if she could stay with her littermates til 8 weeks. Then perhaps someone could take a week off work to put puppy on a good schedule and potty train her. That would be a start to put her in the right direction. 

Good luck to you....


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Jo Ellen said:


> You can't leave a young puppy alone for 10 hours a day. No, that is totally wrong and you are right to be concerned.
> 
> Do you have family or friends that can help you out until he/she is ready for daycare?


Along this line, I think that working people can have pups - even if it means that they design a set up that's safe for the pup to be alone during the day... however, as I mentioned in my earlier post, it does require that you be honestly committed to spending all your "free time" taking care of the dog's needs. Very few people want to actually do that (set aside time to walk/play with the pup before work, come home and spend lots of time exercising/training, etc.) and therein lies the problem.... IMO.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Honestly, 6 weeks sounds a bit young to release a pup to a family who works 9-5 and can't let her out. I would be worried sick at work if I had a puppy at home in a crate at that young of age. I would reconsider buying the puppy.


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## maya111 (Jun 21, 2008)

Hi!
I agree that 6 weeks is too young. At that age they need A LOT of company, specially from their mom and littermates. So it would be kind of a shock for your puppy to be parted from them to go to a strange house with no company for a long time. Can you talk to your breeder and ask him to keep the dog for a couple more weeks? 
Besides, from 8 to 12 weeks (aprox) is the age in which it is easier to teach them stuff. Things they learn at that age are the most important and the ones that they will remember longer. So if you're not around you have to be really sure that the person who will take care of your dog will educate him properly, AND you have to know that it is likely that your dog will get more attached to that person. 

I got Maya when she was 7 weeks. But I was lucky to get her during my easter break, so I got to be with her for a whole week. My parents were around at times, but since I was the one that fed her, took her outside so she could "go potty", and played with her, she quickly recognised me as her mommy. 

So think about it. I'm not telling you to forget about it. Getting a GR is the best that could have ever happened to me, but weigh carefully the pros and cons of getting her at such a young age.


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## Luftstalag13 (Jul 15, 2008)

Thanks everyone for your thoughts/suggestions/concerns, they are greatly appreciated. My bad, actually the puppy was born on 6/30 and we will pick her up on 8/17, so I guess by then she will be 7 weeks old. Old enough to be picked up? I will take a week off to be with her; my wife and I are both fully committed to spending most of our time awake with her. 

It seems that the most pressing issue you guys identified right now is potty training (How do we train her anyway?), what I was worried about was leaving her alone and how it will impact her physically and psychologically/emotionally. Both of us are expected to work full-time in the next 20 years or more (throughout the life time of the dog), so she will have to spend a lot of time alone (does getting another dog or cat help?), that's what I am worried about. Of course we have have a dog walker walking her.. 

Thanks again everyone, I am here to learn!


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

I got one of my dogs when she was already 5 months old. Her bladder was developed and she could hold it for 8 hours while I was at work. When I got Sydney at 10 weeks, she was much younger and not able to hold it. I still had to go to work. Let me tell you, housetraining with Sydney was a disaster and she is still not reliably housebroken and she is 5 years old. She can hold it, but if she has to go and there is no one there to let her out, she will go on the floor. So she is still crated when we aren't there. If someone can come to your house and let her out a few times a day and play a little with her, I think you should be fine though. Any neighbor kids? When Sage was little I let the neighbor boy who was about 12 at the time come over and let her out. I made sure his mom watched from their house, but he enjoyed it and Sage wasn't stuck home alone all day.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Hello and welcome,
Having someone to come and take her out several times a day will really help and do like Quiz said about the pen with the seperate areas. Puppies like to potty seperatley from the bed area. They have alot of trouble holding it for long time and I would not get another animal until this one is all trained. Once she has all her shots you can take her to an obiedence class and it will help to train her to be a good dog and bonding. Good luck with whatever you do.


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

I think if you've found a dog walker to come take her out and for a stroll you may be able to work it out. Emotionally, if you play with her a lot when you get home I don't think she'll even know you were gone for ten hours before play time. I imagine to her it will just be like nap time, walk time, nap time, and mom and dad play with me time  I'm no expert, just my opinion. The dog walker makes a big difference in your situation.


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## Sienna's Mom (Oct 23, 2007)

We got Sienna at 7 weeks and both work full time. It was a decision I thought long and hard about because of this. In the end I saw that many of my coworkers had dogs and felt we could work around it because we wanted a dog so badly and this was the only reason against getting one. This was our first family dog and we really wanted a puppy, especially for our now 8 year old son to enjoy.

We started out with a good situation in that we took off her first week home and my DH had a schedule which allowed him to be home on certain days. We ended up having my son's babysitter and a neighbor come in every few hours in the beginning-for at least the first 6-7 months for the days he was out all day. It was pretty draining and I felt so grateful for their help (we both weren't able to come home during the day because of how far away I worked and DH is a pilot) This was before we could take her for walks because she didn't have all her shots.

We set up her large crate which was sectioned down to a smaller area (to be opened up as she grew) and then attached an ex-pen to the crate for a play area. We kept that up as long as we could, until she got too big :

DH's schedule changed to working 4 long days a week, but Sienna is older (17 months) so now we have the babysitter/doggie helper come in once a day, take her out to pee, play with her and give her fresh Kongs with frozen goodies.

When we went out anywhere we always planned it around the dog or have someone come in to help. Now we take her with us when we can.


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## Brady's mom (Dec 20, 2007)

My husband and I both work full-time and got our puppy in December. We had about two weeks off, which helped tremendously, but I tell you it was NOT a vacation! Between getting up multiple times in the middle of the night and interacting with the puppy all day, we were exhausted. Fortunately Brady was house trained VERY quickly but this did not mean that we didn't have to take him out all the time. We just weren't dealing with accidents 

When we went back to work, we left Brady in a large metal octagon playpen (not his crate) and a litterbox, which he learned to use at the breeder (we used litter for small animals, not cat litter). One of us came home 3 days a week and we had a dog walker the other two. That arrangement lasted about two weeks. Brady was so strong that he was knocking that playpen around and even escaped it one day. He barked and yelped all day and was generally frantic to get out of there. He also made an enormous mess with his litter and pretty much ate all the poop.

Turns out he was much happier being confined in his crate. He didn't cry or whine when we left (or not much anyway) and he wasn't at all destructive. But again, he was always relieved at lunch. And he still is, at nearly 9 months. Sometimes we take him to work in our car and he sleeps all day in the parking garage (with potty breaks, of course).


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## Sienna's Mom (Oct 23, 2007)

Brady's mom said:


> Turns out he was much happier being confined in his crate. He didn't cry or whine when we left (or not much anyway) and he wasn't at all destructive. But again, he was always relieved at lunch. And he still is, at nearly 9 months. Sometimes we take him to work in our car and he sleeps all day in the parking garage (with potty breaks, of course).


When Sienna was about 9 months old she got too big for the ex-pen arrangement and we took it away and confined her to her crate too. I felt bad at first to "take away" her stretch out area, but it was also a safety issue in that we were on borrowed time for her to knock the pen sides down and hurt herself- every time we came home she had her paws over the top of it and hopped like a big bunny in excitement. The pen would always travel across the floor. We put an attached water bowl in her crate, but had to take out her bedding as she became a champion at pulling it apart. I wish we could leave her out of her crate while we are not home, but I do not trust her, she is still in the grab and run stage.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

If you decide to do the x-pen arrangement, get some cinder blocks to stack outside to keep it from moving. I also teach pups *not* to jump out of it, but if you're concerned, they sell extra panels that you can attach to make a roof, or you can use chicken wire and alligator clamps to make a roof.


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## Hudson (May 18, 2005)

Welcome to the forum, another concern to draw to your attention is a young puppy also requires feeding during the day,morning, lunch and dinner..... are you able to come home and feed the puppy and have a play during lunch break.

Toilet training also requires a great deal of time and consistency, taking puppy out regularly after eating, drinking and waking.

Hope you can work out someone to visit and help out so your new puppy is not let alone for many hours.

If you have the time a puppy can be a wonderful addition to your lives, but they do become part of your family and can bring many years of love and joy.


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## draxisback (Jul 7, 2008)

Luftstalag13 said:


> Hi,
> 
> My wife and I will be getting a female puppy in about four weeks (the puppy will be 6 weeks old then) and we are really excited. Meanwhile we are also very worried because both of us work and we will have to leave the puppy home alone for at least 10 weeks before we can send her to a doggie day care (both day care that I checked do not accept dogs younger than 16 weeks). Both of us work 9-5 and we will be gone for about 10 hours day. The puppy is going to be too young to be walked and day care does not accept her. What do we do? Can we leave her at home alone? Is it safe? We heard the puppy might get bored and worse, depressed and sad which will have a negative impact on the temperament, health etc.
> 
> What do we do? We are worried sick.  Should we even be getting the puppy? We are so afraid of hurting her. Any suggestion/advice is greatly appreciated!


We had a situation where we had to get our puppy at 6 weeks(golden) because the breeder we signed up with which great records and certs had a fire at his hosue coming home from the vets  and had no place for the dogs so we picked ours up early. The first day or two with him was a huge cultural shock. But after that, he has been wonderful. Jumps up and down when we get home and know exactly who mom and dad is. But I leaving mine for 2 hours is enough time to have a mess all over the place. Might want to get one when you have a week or two of vacation time =D


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## samchu_mammy (Jun 20, 2008)

I would like to share my own experience on this. I am a first time dog owner, and a happy mom with a 6 months old golden, Sam. :wave:

I got Sam from the pet store, and he has all the paper works so we are so sure he's not from puppy mill. I work 9-5, and DH works 9-6, both long hours. We never crate Sam, and only got him x-pen. We got him on a weekend, and I took the following Monday off from work to take care/spend time with Sam. Sam had a wee wee pad, and a bedding area in the x-pen. I kept very close eyes on him when I let him out to walk around (we live in Apartment, so smaller space for him to move around). I put him back to his wee wee pad when I saw him going circle for the sign of nature call. He only have less than 10 times accidents in the house before he hits 5 months.

During the day while we work, Sam spent his time in his x-pen. He slept most of the time in the pen anyway. Once we got home, we spend all our time with him and let him out of there until it was time for bed. 

We fed him 3 times by then, 7am, 7pm, 10pm. I know it is a little tough to not having someone come over and feed him during noon time. We had no choice. No friends/family live near by, nor any dog walker available in the area. 

Now, Sam is 6 months. He started refused to go on wee wee pad around 5 months, which while we started walking him out and make him do business outside. After we walk him before work and finish all his business, he holds it until we got out from work even if we leave the wee wee pad on the floor, he refused to go. However, he no longer spends his day time in his x-pen. We got a baby gate set up to block him from prohibited areas, and he's doing great.

One time to put in mind though, we really did spend all our free time with the dog. We rush home every day afterwork to let him out for business, to play, and for long walks. We haven't really have nice dinner out for a long time!

We also took him to puppy class, and even if there's no class, we still bring him to Petco & Petsmart, so he can see more people and dogs, and have a chance to play with others.

Hope this would help you a bit~:bowl:


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## jzgrlduff (Feb 15, 2008)

Hello!
I would strongly suggest hiring a dog walker to come in at noon to walk her. With both my Golden (9 months) and my Labs, that's what we do. I leave at 7:15ish and get home around 4. The dog walker comes around noon and walks them. We've done this since they came home as pups and it's worked out fine. Of course they are crated when we aren't home (well the Golden still is anyway). Oh, and like someone else said, the pup will need 3 meals a day up until about 4-5 month so you will need the dog walker to do that, too.

Good luck! Keep us posted!


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## Luftstalag13 (Jul 15, 2008)

Thanks again everyone, now I am feeling better knowing that it CAN be done. :thanks:

Questions: Does the puppy absolutely need to be fed three times a day, I mean including lunch? If we can't find a neighbor/dog walker to come in to feed her around noon, can we leave some food (as well as water) out for her in the ex-pen? 

Also, how much are you guys paying a dog walker? I find $20 for half an hour quite expensive! :uhoh:


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

7 weeks is still too young, IMO. they are learning valuable lessons about socialization during that time.
They don't have to be fed three times a day. I would strongly discourage 'pee pads' as one poster had suggested, they will make true house training much more difficult.
Remember that pup's bladders can only hold about one more hour than they are old. So at 8 weeks (2 months), 3 hours is the MAX the pup will be able to hold it. Pups that age should be taken out every 30 min or so to help them learn to not potty inside.
I know you have your heart set on this puppy but honestly would not do it. Your situation is not a bad one and for an older pup ( 7- 8 mos) or an adult dog would be ideal. Look into some Golden Rescues in your area, you will be able to save a life and find a dog who can adjust to your lifestyle easily. I would also still be cautious of a breeder who is letting them go at 7 weeks without aiding you by educating you about how to have a puppy with your lifestyle.
You will clearly be a great pup owner since you care so much! Good luck with whatever you decide!!!


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I agree with the puppy pads.... I work in a boarding Kennel and I couldnt tell you how many dogs we have use them and the owner cant get them house trained. And we arent talking puppies or young dogs..there 5-7 years and have been using them since a puppy. Im not a big fan of news paper either


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Boss can be surprisingly nice about golden pups- maybe the pup could go with one of you and be in a crate or ex-pen if it was clear it was temporary? This would get your puppy nicely socializing too. A librarian in my town's public library has a baby yellow lab puppy in a crate behind the check out counter, and in my brother-in-law's office, one of the lawyers has a baby boxer puppy in a quarter of his office and sneaks him out between clients! 

This is also a great time of year to hire responsible high school kids/college kids home on summer break. You could find a nice,responsible 16-21 year old animal lover to babysit& play?

Where in the country are you located? If you are near Maine, I would be happy to help!


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

samchu_mammy said:


> I would like to share my own experience on this. I am a first time dog owner, and a happy mom with a 6 months old golden, Sam. :wave:
> 
> I got Sam from the pet store, and he has all the paper works so we are so sure he's not from puppy mill. I work 9-5, and DH works 9-6, both long hours. We never crate Sam, and only got him x-pen. We got him on a weekend, and I took the following Monday off from work to take care/spend time with Sam. Sam had a wee wee pad, and a bedding area in the x-pen. I kept very close eyes on him when I let him out to walk around (we live in Apartment, so smaller space for him to move around). I put him back to his wee wee pad when I saw him going circle for the sign of nature call. He only have less than 10 times accidents in the house before he hits 5 months.
> 
> ...



Your pup is super cute! please don't think that papers mean your pup didn't come from a mill. NO reputable breeder would sell their pups to ANY pet stores. If you get the chance, there is an excellent Oprah show investigating pet store pups and they address the issue of getting papers for pups even thou they were mill puppies.
Please don't try to push a pro-pet store agenda here, it can in no way help people end up with healthy happy puppies and no matter what your feelings on the stores are, they ARE contributing to the pet overpopulation.
I'm glad to see you found your way here, we love those puppy pics - and would love to see more of yours, good luck on your first pup!


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## Luftstalag13 (Jul 15, 2008)

If we don't use pee-pads, what do we use? What are the alternatives? 

Jilly, we live in the South Shore area in Massachusetts, not too far from you but far enough!  Local dog walkers that have a website charge between $18 to $20/half an hour, I will check local paper to see if there are any kids available. Thanks!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Luftstalag13 said:


> If we don't use pee-pads, what do we use? What are the alternatives?
> 
> Jilly, we live in the South Shore area in Massachusetts, not too far from you but far enough!  Local dog walkers that have a website charge between $18 to $20/half an hour, I will check local paper to see if there are any kids available. Thanks!


I have a whole bunch of students(Pomfret School) on the south shore. Let me know if you want me to try and find a good one!


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

honestly, you take her out every 30 min, that's the best way to potty train, you are in for a long haul if you use pee pads. When you can't see them (if you are showering etc) put her in a crate and let her out as soon as you let her out of the crate. If the crate is the appropriate size, she will not want to mess up her own personal 'den' (unless she is in there longer than her bladder can handle) and it will help immensely in potty training.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Do you have any friends that have older kids(high school age) or someone you know from church who lives near by? I foster puppies for our rescue and if my kids arent home and Im at work any one of my sons friends will pop over and let them out. I have a 4month month old that is crate trained and can hold it for 8 hours but I dont care for them to have to hold it that long at that age, so I make sure someone lets them out. And if I didnt have anyone I would pay to have someone come over and let them out.


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## Luftstalag13 (Jul 15, 2008)

One more question (sorry for having so many): Should the puppy be trained by professionals or can she be trained by us? Potty training I think we can probably do it ourselves, but I've heard obedience training etc., should that be handled by professionals? 

I have heard people mentioning sending their puppies to "a class", is that the training that we are talking about or are they different things? What should I look for in selecting day care/ training providers? Thanks again!


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

you and the puppy can attend classes together, it is a great way to bond with her and acquire general obedience ... you don't just send the puppy thou, you take part. It is of course not a requirement but many people enjoy the time with their pups learning something helpful - never too many questions!! =)


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Puppy's First Steps: The Whole-Dog Approach to Raising a Happy, Healthy, Well-Behaved Puppy is Nicholas Dodman's great book. He is at Tufts vet school.

Heelup.com is good basics from Connie Cleveland.


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## Luftstalag13 (Jul 15, 2008)

AmyinAr said:


> honestly, you take her out every 30 min, that's the best way to potty train, you are in for a long haul if you use pee pads. When you can't see them (if you are showering etc) put her in a crate and let her out as soon as you let her out of the crate. If the crate is the appropriate size, she will not want to mess up her own personal 'den' (unless she is in there longer than her bladder can handle) and it will help immensely in potty training.


Sorry for asking stupid questions, when you said taking her out every 30 minutes, does it have to be this frequent? Also, is she safe to be outside before she gets all her shots? 

Since I will take a week off after picking her up, I will definitely try to train her. The problem even if she learns to hold, after that week she will be by herself again and she will have to pee inside (even if we have a dog walker come in at noon, it is not going to be as frequent as every 30 minutes). :-(


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I have had puppies that were every 20 mins then some longer.... I would keep her in your own yard until all the shots are done.


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## Luftstalag13 (Jul 15, 2008)

Thank you very much Jilly, should I need your students' help I will let you know (through PM). Where do they live? How much do they charge? Reliable?


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

they may not HAVE to go every 30 min, but the chances of them going outside and you being able to praise them (as this is the way to potty train, not spanking after they go inside) greatly increase with more time outside. And puppies have tiny bladders and should be allowed to have water whenever they want ... in my book it is totally necessary, this is one reason I suggested rescuing a slightly older dog for your lifestyle, having a puppy is a 24/7 deal and she deserves that attention.
You are getting great info here and are asking great questions! Never hesitate to ask more! Good luck!


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## samchu_mammy (Jun 20, 2008)

If you can't be home and take them out frequently, wee wee pad is the best solution in my opnion. However, I still remember how crazy I was seeing Sam's fur sticking w/ all the poop and pee, and can't take him out to groom...:doh:

You can check with Petco and Petsmart puppy classes. They usually charge about $120 for 6-8 classes. They teach basic command, loose leash walking, and some nice tips. Plus, it's a good way to social your puppy where he/she can meet other pups around his/her age. They do require complete certain shots though, so you should go and check to make sure.

There's a puppy on my block, who hasn't finish all the shots. The owner still take him out to a short distance walk, like half block to potty train him. Just make sure don't let your pup get too close to other dogs and animals when he/she hasn't finish most of the shots.


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## heartofgold (Oct 27, 2007)

AmyinAr said:


> honestly, you take her out every 30 min, that's the best way to potty train, you are in for a long haul if you use pee pads. When you can't see them (if you are showering etc) put her in a crate and let her out as soon as you let her out of the crate. If the crate is the appropriate size, she will not want to mess up her own personal 'den' (unless she is in there longer than her bladder can handle) and it will help immensely in potty training.


Agree on the pee pads comment! There is no better way to confuse a dog than using pee pads while potty training. Unless you want to use pee pads forever it is never a good idea. Imagine a 70 lb dog going on a pee pad.


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## heartofgold (Oct 27, 2007)

Luftstalag13 said:


> Sorry for asking stupid questions, when you said taking her out every 30 minutes, does it have to be this frequent? Also, is she safe to be outside before she gets all her shots?
> 
> Since I will take a week off after picking her up, I will definitely try to train her. The problem even if she learns to hold, after that week she will be by herself again and she will have to pee inside (even if we have a dog walker come in at noon, it is not going to be as frequent as every 30 minutes). :-(


This is how I trained my pup and it worked very well. 

A very young pup sleeps most of the day. I always put my pup in her crate the second her eyes started to droop. The minute she woke up I would take her out of the crate directly to her yard. Usually this is when they have to go pee. After she went, praise and treat. Then, I would let her play for 20-30 minutes and then take her out again. Then the second her eyes started to droop again, back to the crate. I repeated this throughout the day for weeks and weeks until she was trained. Most dogs will not go in their crates if they are the right size. So, if you take the pup out the minute it wakes things should go well. My breeder helped alot when it came to starting the training process by putting straw in the corner of the whelping pen. The pups went on the straw and when I brought her home the breeder sent a bail of straw for me to put in the yard. It worked! My pup went on the straw every time and still uses the same area of the yard today. The signal to poo is a little more obvious and they sometimes give you advanced warning by doing things such as sniffing, circling, and they usually get the zoomies right before they have to poo, at least mine does. Also, most pups have to poo shortly after their meals or alot of exercise. It is alot of work the first few weeks or months. Most important word of advise, praise, praise, and more praise and be consistant. Good luck!


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## Luftstalag13 (Jul 15, 2008)

I think we will have to use the pee-pad after the first week since she will be left alone, I guess we have no choice but to use it since we won't be around? We will just have to train her to hold whenever we are home by taking her outside..


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Puppies are hard work. Harder than a human baby as you can put a diaper on a baby!

Be prepared for loss of sleep at first, spending lots of time obedience training, house breaking, feeding, playing etc. BUT you will reap the rewards of a loving faithful well trained famly member!

A sitter or dog walker will be worth the price in a happy house broken pup!

God Luck and Best Wishes !


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Debles*

Agree w/ Debles and so many others. Puppies are hard work but I feel well worth it!!

I think they're easier than babies.

First, I've heard that a puppy should not be away from it's Mom until 8 weeks old.

My Husband took off a week to be with Snobear to bond and train him somewhat.

We used a crate for our puppy when we were gone from the house and couldn't supervise. A crate is a PROTECTION for your puppy more than your house. This way the pup can't choke, start a fire, etc., and hurt his or her slf.

I would take the pup out first thing I got home from work at 5 PM.
I couldn't go home for lunch it was too far.
The pup was of course taking out in middle of night when he cried, first thing we got up, again before we left for work. On weekends, I think I took Snobear out every couple of hours and would PRAISE him when he went!!
Being gone all day you have to expect that the puppy will not be able to hold it and will GO in the CRATE. I would simply clean the crate out every night.


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## lgascoig (Dec 25, 2007)

After having been in your position, I would not recommend getting a puppy. My wife and I both work a lot. The pup was to be our first dog, my wife had had dogs but hadn't had to take care of them.

I made sure to go with a breeder who would take the pup back if I couldn't hack it. Well, I couldn't. I greatly underestimated how much work it is. If you are at all moved by the other people on here, I can say that they don't tell the half of it. I barely slept.

You'll read a lot of stories about people who had the perfect pup and everything like that, if this is you then you're extremely lucky. Here's what I learned about raising a Golden pup:

1. Not all goldens like crates. We put his crate right next to our bed. Within 10 minutes of being in the crate he'd whine, go berserk bashing at the metal, and then end up soiling it.

2. Next plan, move to living room with an x-pen and a crate attached. I slept on the floor next to the dog so that if he had to go during the night I could get him outside. Did a lot better with this strategy but still had a bunch of accidents.

3. When you bring them outside, they don't necessarily do it immediately. Sometimes at 1:50am even on a leash they'll sit and chew on a stick for 45 minutes and then finally do it for ya.

4. Despite what I read in books, not all Golden puppies like liver treats or are food motivated by the "normal stuff". Sometimes I'd try to reward his good behavior and he wouldn't even take it. Sure liked scrambled eggs though... heh heh

5. If you're going to feel guilty about leaving your puppy to go to work, don't get one. They're completely defenseless and need you for their basic needs constantly. If you're used to animals like cats (I have two British Shorthairs) this is ___WAY____ different. I can't emphasize enough how much attention they require. It is more work than a full time job.

6. I gained new appreciation for mothers and my mother in particular. This is hard stuff. I also learned what my dad meant when he said he brought me home from the hospital as his first baby and then went to the bathroom and cried for about an hour because he didn't know what to do.

Anyway, if this doesn't deter you then enjoy. For me, I'm waiting until my work is not all encompassing (perhaps even retirement) and then get a nice adult golden.


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## Goldbeau (Mar 29, 2008)

I guess my main question would be is this your first puppy that you have owned? It seems like you are very worried about working and having a puppy and you should be. All of your concerns have truth to them.

I honostly could not see getting a 7 week old puppy and having to work 10 hours a day. Even with a dog walker. I mean no disrespect to those of you who have managed to work full time and have puppies. I just can't see it being a fair situation for the puppy or the owner to have a puppy that young alone most of the day. Having Beau at 8 weeks was a tremendous amount of work and I would say it was as difficult as having a newborn that keeps you up all night. Except this newborn runs around and chews everything ( I have 3 young children) The difference for me was that Beau learned how to sleep through the night faster than the kids did. 

I would be very careful about leaving pads down for a puppy who is going to be left alone for hours at a time. We tried the pads and Beau would chew them and eat the plastic if we left him alone with them! 

Can it be done?? Sure it can. I just don't think it should be done.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

lgascoig said:


> After having been in your position, I would not recommend getting a puppy. My wife and I both work a lot. The pup was to be our first dog, my wife had had dogs but hadn't had to take care of them.
> 
> I made sure to go with a breeder who would take the pup back if I couldn't hack it. Well, I couldn't. I greatly underestimated how much work it is. If you are at all moved by the other people on here, I can say that they don't tell the half of it. I barely slept.
> 
> ...


That was very honest on your part and I dont think a lot of people really think about all this work that goes into a puppy. Our rescue will not adopt a puppy out to someone who works 8-10 hours a day, since we feel it isnt fair to the puppy to be left alone all that time...... I foster most of the puppies we take in our rescue and with the exception of one I have been very lucky and havent had to many sleepless nights. But its not for everyone.


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## maya111 (Jun 21, 2008)

lgascoig said:


> After having been in your position, I would not recommend getting a puppy. My wife and I both work a lot. The pup was to be our first dog, my wife had had dogs but hadn't had to take care of them.
> 
> I made sure to go with a breeder who would take the pup back if I couldn't hack it. Well, I couldn't. I greatly underestimated how much work it is. If you are at all moved by the other people on here, I can say that they don't tell the half of it. I barely slept.
> 
> ...



Totally agree. Of course in the end you get the love and company of a GR. But this is absolutely true.


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## lgascoig (Dec 25, 2007)

A couple more points:

If you're at all like me you will recognize that leaving a young puppy alone all day is really just unacceptable. I had a feeling it might be, but I read about lots of people who got an 8 week old, stayed home for two weeks, and then went back to a normal work schedule.

I thought, wow. So if I can do that and come home at lunch, it will be cool. But I quickly came to understand why people do not recommend a puppy for everyone.

Daycare normally starts at 5 months where I am at, and 3 months of unattended puppy messing on the floor because he has no choice is not good. 

Leaving him outside in the yard during the day is dangerous and borderline crazy. Between sticks, rocks, hawks, etc... I would go nuts leaving him outside and even then he wouldn't be learning his potty habits because he wouldn't have the contrast of being inside and going outside.

He was re-adopted by a stay at home mom with a daughter. I was extremely happy with this outcome.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

lgascoig said:


> A couple more points:
> 
> If you're at all like me you will recognize that leaving a young puppy alone all day is really just unacceptable. I had a feeling it might be, but I read about lots of people who got an 8 week old, stayed home for two weeks, and then went back to a normal work schedule.
> 
> ...


Im sure you thought long and hard about given your puppy back and you put his or her needs first, to bad there arent more people like you out there....


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## Jon Zaremba (Jul 16, 2008)

I know i'm in the minority here so take what i'm about to say with a grain of salt... 

I don't put much importance on my dog's emotional wellbeing. I love him to death, but at the end of the day, he's a dog and my happiness is more important than his. I don't treat him like he is one of my children. I'm sure that sounds harsh to most of us here, and i can understand this...but i'm speaking honestly.

I live alone and have no friends or family. I work 10 hour days and commute 45 minutes each way. I got Dougal when he was 9 weeks old. I took a week's vacation for the first week so that he could get to know me. After that week, he was alone at home in a crate for 12+ hours per day. And still is. He has never attended a training class. He's never had a dog walker or gone to day care.

He's only 8 months old now, but has done extremely well. He (for the most part) listens when i call him, knows the basic commands (sit, stay, come, paw, etc...), doesn't chew the furniture any more, stops barking when i tell him to, etc...

While it's a lot more work this way, it is possible to raise a well-adjusted, trained, loving, and socialized dog without giving him the same attention that a young human would require.

There's no way i'd recommend what i have gone through to someone else. The first 5 months were the hardest months of my life. But if you have no alternative and are determined to bring a dog into your life, i don't want you to think that it's hopeless. It can be done and your dog can be perfectly happy too.


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## amazonb (Feb 23, 2008)

lgasciog: YOu made me laugh a few times over with your post....talk about ringing true!!!
I agree with most of what has been posted here.
In fact, if I could have changed anything in my life with Charlotte, my first, I would have waited to get her since my work schedule at the time was very difficult. She was alone more than I would have liked and there was more destructive behavior her first 6 months than I can describe. She spent the rest of her life being the world's most perfect dog and That is because I changed things drastically. I should have been less selfish at first and changed BEFORE getting her.
If you really want to do this, you must get a dedicated pet sitter.
Someone who will not just walk your dog but who will give it the vital affection and attention necessary during this stage.
Even now, my 5 year old can hold it for 12 hours. I won't let her. I have someone come to play and walk her every day, even if I only work a 6 hour shift.

This is absolutely hard work, but the rewards are incredible.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2008)

Luftstalag13 said:


> Hi,
> 
> My wife and I will be getting a female puppy in about four weeks (the puppy will be 6 weeks old then) and we are really excited. Meanwhile we are also very worried because both of us work and we will have to leave the puppy home alone for at least 10 weeks before we can send her to a doggie day care (both day care that I checked do not accept dogs younger than 16 weeks). Both of us work 9-5 and we will be gone for about 10 hours day. The puppy is going to be too young to be walked and day care does not accept her. What do we do? Can we leave her at home alone? Is it safe? We heard the puppy might get bored and worse, depressed and sad which will have a negative impact on the temperament, health etc.
> 
> What do we do? We are worried sick.  Should we even be getting the puppy? We are so afraid of hurting her. Any suggestion/advice is greatly appreciated!


-I actually leave my pups home that long too. They always have been because I work 9-5 also. But I do have to say I go home on lunch everyday bacuase we live really close to work. But it isn't bad to leave them home. They will know you love them. It's all about the training process.!


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

I'm glad to see some others post about rethinking getting a puppy. I think your situation is such that you might really benefit from having an older, somewhat trained rescue in your home. Haven't heard from you in a few pages, wondering how your decision is coming along.
Here is a link, to rescues by state if you are interested.
http://www.grca-nrc.org/Localrescues.htm


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

Jon Zaremba said:


> I know i'm in the minority here so take what i'm about to say with a grain of salt...
> 
> I don't put much importance on my dog's emotional wellbeing. I love him to death, but at the end of the day, he's a dog and my happiness is more important than his. I don't treat him like he is one of my children. I'm sure that sounds harsh to most of us here, and i can understand this...but i'm speaking honestly.
> 
> ...


12 hours a day alone for a 9 week puppy ... makes me very very sad ... :no:


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## tannernoodle (Mar 19, 2008)

That's a long time. Our goldens have been used to us gone 8 hours a day. Maybe you should rescue a golden. A rescue could find a good match for you, one without separation anxieties, maybe an older one who would like to be home all day. Our golden we adopted worked out good when we went to work. We also have the option of coming home at lunch but he seems just fine the 8 hours we're away.


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

tannernoodle said:


> That's a long time. Our goldens have been used to us gone 8 hours a day. Maybe you should rescue a golden. A rescue could find a good match for you, one without separation anxieties, maybe an older one who would like to be home all day. Our golden we adopted worked out good when we went to work. We also have the option of coming home at lunch but he seems just fine the 8 hours we're away.


exactly! 

gosh that's a gorgeous Golden in your pic!


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## Blaireli (Jun 3, 2008)

Jon Zaremba said:


> I don't put much importance on my dog's emotional wellbeing. I love him to death, but at the end of the day, he's a dog and my happiness is more important than his.


Wow...

Just...wow...


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

Blaireli said:


> Wow...
> 
> Just...wow...


I completely agree....wow...


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

> Originally Posted by *Jon Zaremba*
> _I don't put much importance on my dog's emotional wellbeing. I love him to death, but at the end of the day, he's a dog and my happiness is more important than his._


On the one hand I totally gotta hand it to you for being so open and honest with us about your feelings for your dog. But dude ... with all due respect?? I think I don't like you 

And you know what? I know you're going to be totally okay with me saying that ... since you don't care much about your dog's well-being, why on earth would you be moved by anything I say or feel. 

My goodness. I'm just a tad bit flabbergasted by that post.


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## Blaireli (Jun 3, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> My goodness. I'm just a tad bit flabbergasted by that post.


Me, too!!!


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

WOW....All I can say is your very lucky this POOR dog hasnt destroyed your home and turn out the way he has. I will never figure out why people like you even get a dog since you dont care about his well being..... And its pretty sad that all this dog has is you....


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Jon Zaremba said:


> I know i'm in the minority here so take what i'm about to say with a grain of salt...
> 
> I don't put much importance on my dog's emotional wellbeing. I love him to death, but at the end of the day, he's a dog and my happiness is more important than his. I don't treat him like he is one of my children. I'm sure that sounds harsh to most of us here, and i can understand this...but i'm speaking honestly.
> 
> ...


I'm am sorry to say this but just being honest as you were.
You think the 5 months were hard on you? What about poor Dougal?
He has been alone almost 12 hours a day since he was 9 weeks old?
I can't even write what I am thinking and feeling because I'd be banned from the forum and I love it here too much.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Debles said:


> I'm am sorry to say this but just being honest as you were.
> You think the 5 months were hard on you? What about poor McDougal?
> He has been alone almost 12 hours a day since he was 9 weeks old?
> I can't even write what I am thinking and feeling because I'd be banned from the forum and I love it here too much.


Ditto.

I can't believe you were serious in your post, and i am hoping you were just delighting in stirring up some reaction. What if you had, say, appendicitis or a commuting accident or something that very suddenly extended your time away unforseeably? Who would let Dougal out of his crate? Do you just let him potty in his crate? That puts so much pressure on you to enrich all his other moments- if you sleep a 6-8 of the remaining twelve hours, then his life boils down to two /fourhours a day, tops? Cant you take him with you? Please?


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I am guessing you don't believe in doggie daycare?


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## Blaireli (Jun 3, 2008)

Debles said:


> I'm am sorry to say this but just being honest as you were.
> You think the 5 months were hard on you? What about poor McDougal?
> He has been alone almost 12 hours a day since he was 9 weeks old?
> I can't even write what I am thinking and feeling because I'd be banned from the forum and I love it here too much.



I totally agree! 

To Dougal's dad...or owner, not so much dad...

If he has been left alone 12+ hours per day every work day, then you're home with him at the very most 12 hours...six to eight of which you sleep. Don't get me wrong, I work full-time and am going back to school in the fall...BUT I would never leave my pups alone like that. Especially at nine weeks! 

I appreciate that you were being honest in your post...so I'm going to be honest. I think it's an extremely unfair and heartbreaking situation for Dougal. That is not a great quality of life, in my opinion.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Blaireli said:


> I totally agree!
> 
> To Dougal's dad...or owner, not so much dad...
> 
> ...


I so agree. This situation is one of the most heartbreaking I've ever heard. Actions speak louder than words and, in this case, action echos words perfectly. I will pray for little Dougal ..... if you ever decide that he perhaps needs or deserves more, please let us know. I'm sure there are many here who WOULD put his emotional and physical needs first.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

Why get a dog if you don't care about his emotional well-being? No dog, especially a golden, should be treated that way. Tending to all facets of a dog's life, physical and emotional, is part of being a responsible dog owner, IMO.


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

Debles said:


> I can't even write what I am thinking and feeling because I'd be banned from the forum and I love it here too much.


 Originally Posted by *Jo Ellen*  
_My goodness. I'm just a tad bit flabbergasted by that post._

My thoughts exactly! My 3 wait in the front room by the door for us when we all go out for a few hours, and they have my parents to keep them company. They form a strong bond, as they are supposed to, with their owners and to keep that from them by emotionally and physically detaching the two of you is so so very sad.


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## hgatesy (Feb 14, 2007)

Wow! 12 Hours.... 

I don't even think I could hold it that long!!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

While I do think that working folks can, and are entitled to the joy of raising a puppy and having a dog, consistently being gone 12+ hours a day really begs the question of whether or not a dog is the best companion animal.

Dogs are certainly adaptable. I honestly think that once it's an adult dog, it doesn't really know if you're gone 2 hours or 10. I know that my dogs sleep when I'm gone. I *can* leave them up to 12 hours - and sometimes I get stuck and have to, but I try to avoid it whenever possible.

While I understand that Jon's statement of putting his wellbeing over the dog's sounds harsh, I don't think it's all that awful. I take it as his way of saying that dog's adapt - which I totally believe to be true. I often see posts here about people stressing over leaving their dogs for 2 hours... or never wanting to leave if they can't take the dog. I often feel like those posts are too extreme in the *other* direction. Dogs adapt. Period. It's how they have survived as a species. I don't feel the need to completely alter my lifestyle for my dogs. I adapt in some areas and I teach them to adapt in others. Like most things in life, it's about compromise! (On as the humans, we get to set the parameters of both ends of the compromise!)

So long as a dog has its basic needs met - food, water, shelter, interaction -- who are we to say what is right, wrong or best? Beyond the basic needs, it's really a matter of opinion. While I wouldn't choose to leave a dog home alone all day 12+ hours on a regular basis -- and some dogs would have a hard time handling that -- some dogs handle it just fine. Again, wouldn't be my first choice, but I can think of worse ways for a dog to live.

I think a worse fate for a dog is to live its life as an outdoor dog.

Just My Opinion.



Jon Zaremba said:


> I know i'm in the minority here so take what i'm about to say with a grain of salt...
> 
> I don't put much importance on my dog's emotional wellbeing. I love him to death, but at the end of the day, he's a dog and my happiness is more important than his. I don't treat him like he is one of my children. I'm sure that sounds harsh to most of us here, and i can understand this...but i'm speaking honestly.
> 
> ...


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## Penny'smom (Mar 3, 2007)

Shocked and disgusted here. You need stuffed animals, not a living breathing creature with heart and soul.

Our Penny gets excited when we wake up every morning and wants to be with us even to go to the bathroom.

You certainly under estimate the feelings of dogs: they do feel pain and loneliness. You should be ashamed of yourself!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> On the one hand I totally gotta hand it to you for being so open and honest with us about your feelings for your dog. But dude ... with all due respect?? I think I don't like you
> 
> And you know what? I know you're going to be totally okay with me saying that ... since you don't care much about your dog's well-being, why on earth would you be moved by anything I say or feel.
> 
> My goodness. I'm just a tad bit flabbergasted by that post.


I totally agree with you Jo Ellen. You said it in a much nicer way than I ever could have.


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

Couldn't excessive crate time lead to a weak backside? I mean, on the weekends he may get to play and have a great time but all during the work week he is unable to even walk for 12 hours a day. I would think that could cause a lack of muscle tone, aside from social issues. I'm no expert though, it just doesn't sound like even almost optimal conditions. Is there a kid next door you could get to take him for a walk for you?


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## Lady Di (Feb 22, 2008)

I can not believe this thread. It's a joke right? Someone trying to push someone's buttons?


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Lady Di said:


> I can not believe this thread. It's a joke right? Someone trying to push someone's buttons?


 
I had that same thought.... at least I hope that's the case.:uhoh::yuck:


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Penny'smom said:


> Shocked and disgusted here. You need stuffed animals, not a living breathing creature with heart and soul.
> 
> Our Penny gets excited when we wake up every morning and *wants to be with us even to go to the bathroom.*
> 
> You certainly under estimate the feelings of dogs: they do feel pain and loneliness. You should be ashamed of yourself!


Okay, I don't know why I feel compelled to try and defend, to a degree, what Jon said, (b/c having a dog be alone 12+ hours on a regular basis certainly isn't my first choice) but Penny'e comment above is what I'm talking about when I mention the extreme opposite of the spectrum.

Yes, our dogs, if given the choice, would like to be with us much, if not all of the time. However, that's not realistic. And I think that we, as owners, can do just as much damage to our dogs by not teaching them how to be alone. For example, a dog who has to follow you into the bathroom is often a dog who is stressed out when not able to see or be with his human. I just don't think that's any more fair to the dog. Not saying Penny's dogs are to the point of being stressed if they don't accompany her to the bathroom, but many dogs are and I think that's just as unfair as expecting the dog to handle being alone for long hours on a daily basis.


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

I thought if I stepped away from this thread for a while I would be less irritated, but I'm not

The OP asked if they should get a puppy with their schedule, they shouldn't but that's not what they wanted to hear so they just chose to ignore those posts and adopt pee pads and 9 hours of alone time as acceptable

Then someone comes on defending their purchase of a pet store pup as they are giving advice 

Then we get the big winner in Jon's post about the lack of appreciation and care for any dog's happiness ...

This thread makes me so sad for so many dogs, I mean these are dog owners who take the time and effort to come to a forum about dogs which means they are probably in the better division of dog owners. Think about the pups who have owners who wouldn't even be willing to do that.

I work with rescues and it is always frustrating to see the never ending cycle of ill bred pups or abandoned or abused older dogs, but to come here, where people have access to all kinds of information, and see a lack of care for a puppies well being really really adds a whole other dimension

I;m sorry if I offended but I honestly couldn't handle giving the required polite responses here in this thread anymore


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Quiz, this is the first time I have disagreed with you, and I am not sure that I am actually disagreeing with you. Defending what Jon said is wrong, in my opinion, because he is basically saying that dogs are property and have no right to any consideration from us as owners. At least that is what I am getting from his post. The dog's happiness means next to nil and his happiness means everything.

I do agree, however, and this is where I am saying that I am not sure I disagree with you, that we can make our dogs way too reliant upon us in many ways. But 12 hours without any consideration for a dog and his comfort or discomfort is just plain cruel.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*Defending what Jon said is wrong, in my opinion, because he is basically saying that dogs are property and have no right to any consideration from us as owners.*

Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic, but I didn't take what he said to mean that he had no consideration for his dog. I absolutely don't think that 12+ hours alone is *ideal* by any stretch of the imagination... but if he's found time to train his dog (he said something about a list of behaviors the dog was good at) then that tells me that he is spending time with the dog.

Maybe I feel so strongly about trying to find a bright side in what he said b/c when I had my first dog, Zoie, I was working an office job and she was home alone during the day. I came home at lunch as often as I could, but didn't make it home everyday. She was home from 8am - 6pm. She was gated in the kitchen with newspaper as a wee little pup until she learned to hold it. Then she learned to jump the gate and was eating the apartment, so I had to go to a large crate for her. I walked her and played with her in the AM before I left and did so again on the days I could come home for lunch. Then I walked/played/trained/bonded, etc, with her when I was home at night. I couldn't afford a dog walker and had no family in the area to come and help. I didn't trust my neighbors to be a diligent with her while out on a leash as I was.

Yes, she was home many hours, but she's a happy, well-adjusted dog. I guess it just raises my hackles a bit to hear people say how mean and awful it is to leave a dog home alone all day. I truly believe with every ounce of my being that it CAN be done well - because I've done it - and that not all dogs suffer as a result.

And why did it work? Because she's a dog and dogs adapt. (And of course b/c I was willing to spend so much of my non-working/non sleeping time with her.) Yes, it's nice when we have the ability to be home more, hire a dog walker, etc. but not everyone can do that. All I'm saying is that while it's not for everyone and every dog, it CAN work if you're willing to make the effort.


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> *Defending what Jon said is wrong, in my opinion, because he is basically saying that dogs are property and have no right to any consideration from us as owners.*
> 
> Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic, but I didn't take what he said to mean that he had no consideration for his dog. I absolutely don't think that 12+ hours alone is *ideal* by any stretch of the imagination... but if he's found time to train his dog (he said something about a list of behaviors the dog was good at) then that tells me that he is spending time with the dog.
> 
> ...



I don't see your situation as the same at all thou, and I don't think people are saying leaving a dog at home all day is awful. Most of us have no other choice. You however, made every effort to come home during the day to let your dog out and put in maximum effort to make sure your dog was emotionally happy.
This is totally different than 9 wks old, 12 hours alone and no regard for emotional wellbeing. This to me makes the dog no more than an art piece in the home. That is what is awful, not leaving a dog at home during work, just my opinion!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Jon Zaremba said:


> I know i'm in the minority here so take what i'm about to say with a grain of salt...
> 
> I don't put much importance on my dog's emotional wellbeing. I love him to death, but at the end of the day, he's a dog and my happiness is more important than his. I don't treat him like he is one of my children. I'm sure that sounds harsh to most of us here, and i can understand this...but i'm speaking honestly.
> 
> ...


I agree with your general attitude, which is that dogs aren't people and that dogs adapt. And I know what you're saying, though some wont' understand.

But I did have a dog once that didn't have his emotional needs met....he was a mess of problems and didn't adapt to my situation. Mainly because he was an outside dog...if he was an inside dog, a crate would have lend him structure and control and we could have given him what he needed when we got home. At some point a dog has certain needs that must be met...and that does mean sufficient attention.

The fact is that in my opinon if the dog is well adjusted, adapts, is healthy then all is fine. If a dog has behavior problems then that is a sign that something is not right.

The thing that drives me mad is when a dog is in control, mauling people, is causing huge problems and the owner is worried about the dogs "feelings".

I believe it is healthier to treat a dog like a dog which means giving them what they need to be healthy but expecting them to adjust.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*I love him to death*

I believe the guy loves his dog. I think perhaps it's just an Internet based misunderstanding given that we can't hear the true "tone" with which his words were intended. And if we take his words to mean "dogs are dogs - don't treat them like kids" then I'd have to say that in that respect, I think he's spot on. Many problems in dogs arise when we treat them like furry, four-legged humans.

He's trained his dog, therefore he not only is spending time with his dog, he's also concerned about the dog's safety, etc. and is willing to train the dog vs. just turning an untrained adolescent into the shelter. He's joined an Internet forum. He's asked for suggestions on how to better manage his dog while he's at work - transitioning from a crate to something else. I really think many are jumping to conclusions as to what he feels or doesn't feel about his dog and as result, a relatively new member is being vilified.




AmyinAr said:


> I don't see your situation as the same at all thou, and I don't think people are saying leaving a dog at home all day is awful. Most of us have no other choice. You however, made every effort to come home during the day to let your dog out and put in maximum effort to make sure your dog was emotionally happy.
> This is totally different than 9 wks old, 12 hours alone and no regard for emotional wellbeing. This to me makes the dog no more than an art piece in the home. That is what is awful, not leaving a dog at home during work, just my opinion!


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

I guess I'm weird, I think that since dog's are pack animals they do need us to be around more then a few hours a day. Yes this dogs situation could certainly be worse but it could also be a whole hell of a lot better. I don't think they have to be with us every second but they do need interaction. I think what got me riled up the most was just seeing " I don't put much importance on my dog's emotional wellbeing.". I personally, do put a lot of importance on their emotional well being. I want them happy, secure, and feeling like a beloved family member. They are my friends, don't we all want our friends to be happy?


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

PeanutsMom said:


> I guess I'm weird, I think that since dog's are pack animals they do need us to be around more then a few hours a day. Yes this dogs situation could certainly be worse but it could also be a whole hell of a lot better. I don't think they have to be with us every second but they do need interaction. I think what got me riled up the most was just seeing " I don't put much importance on my dog's emotional wellbeing.". I personally, do put a lot of importance on their emotional well being. I want them happy, secure, and feeling like a beloved family member. They are my friends, don't we all want our friends to be happy?


Very well said. I want happy dogs, their emotional wellbeing is hugely important to me.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

A 9-week-old puppy, like a tiny baby, needs care, attention, feeding, training, etc. And no, I'm not saying a puppy is a baby. I'm saying that both are dependent on people for their well-being at a tender age. Little puppies need to be fed more than once or twice a day. They are too young to 'hold it' for 10-12 hours. They need to be socialized, to bond with their human/s. Leaving such a tiny life alone for so long is just plain bad, IMHO. Because I have to work all day, I made the decision long ago to never adopt a puppy. It just wouldn't be fair to the pup or to me.


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> *I love him to death*
> 
> I believe the guy loves his dog. I think perhaps it's just an Internet based misunderstanding given that we can't hear the true "tone" with which his words were intended. And if we take his words to mean "dogs are dogs - don't treat them like kids" then I'd have to say that in that respect, I think he's spot on. Many problems in dogs arise when we treat them like furry, four-legged humans.
> 
> He's trained his dog, therefore he not only is spending time with his dog, he's also concerned about the dog's safety, etc. and is willing to train the dog vs. just turning an untrained adolescent into the shelter. He's joined an Internet forum. He's asked for suggestions on how to better manage his dog while he's at work - transitioning from a crate to something else. I really think many are jumping to conclusions as to what he feels or doesn't feel about his dog and as result, a relatively new member is being vilified.



I totally get what you are trying to say but I just doubt there is any way that what he said could be rectified in my mind by an internet tone misunderstanding.
These are just my opinions thou, we all have different ones, on this I happen to have very strong opinions ... I certainly don't mean to say anything that 'vilifies' him as he is clearly more as a person than what he posts on a forum. But I am entitled to be really upset by what he said and say so.


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## hgatesy (Feb 14, 2007)

I work full-time... I don't think it's mean and awful to leave your dogs home all day. What choice do those of us that work really have? Doggie day care in my area is umm.... well... does not really exist, as the majority of the dog owners around here could care less about their pets on that type of level. 

I do make the choice not to leave the dogs for longer than 8 or 9 hours though. If we're going to be gone longer than that we either take them with us, find someone to do a potty break... or don't go. I guess if that means my life revolves around my dogs... than yes, it does. I think that's part of dog ownership. Sure, I could leave my dogs for 15+ hours..... they would adapt. That would actually be a heck of a lot easier for me than going through the trouble of changing my schedule around or making frantic phone calls to find someone to let them out. Would I do that though? No... because when I made the decision to get a dog I took on the responsibility of raising this animal with their well-being at heart. 

I personally don't think that leaving the dog while at work is the problem here... I think the way Jon stated his comment... stating that he could give a rats bottom about his dog's emotional well-being just wasn't perhaps worded in the best way. That's my problem with it. He does state that his dog knows some basic commands... but ummm... what else? Has there been socialization in there with other people/dogs, etc? That's part of raising a "well adjusted" dog, or at least in my eyes. If there has that's great, good job. I guess personally I think when you're schedule is that "busy" with work and you really have nobody else to share the obligations of raising a dog with... and you know that going in to dog ownership, then it's just somewhat selfish to get a dog in the first place. Dogs are pack animals... we all know this. They don't do well in isolation. Sure, I can think of many other situations that are far worse than being left alone for 12+ hours in the house... being outside would be one. But isolation is isolation is isolation... the only difference here is probably a comfy couch and temp. difference.


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## hgatesy (Feb 14, 2007)

Wow... I type slow! Seven posts out before I even finish mine! (ha ha)


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

hgatesy said:


> What choice do those of us that work really have?


I guess this is where I get upset, people don't HAVE to get a puppy who can't physically hold it all day and are forced to go in their little area. There are many older dogs who are wonderful and need homes. They often would be a better fit for homes where people can't be expected to be home for hours and hours during the day.


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

hgatesy said:


> But isolation is isolation is isolation... the only difference here is probably a comfy couch and temp. difference.


:no: no comfy couch, he said crated for 12 hours
My Peanut was excessively crated before I got him. I guess that is part of why his post bothers me so much, that and him saying his doesn't care about his dogs emotional wellbeing. I would normally be doing what Quiz is, trying to understand and relate, rather than be against the new member, but this one really got me.


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## hgatesy (Feb 14, 2007)

When I say what choice do those of us that work full-time have... I was more or less just making a point that the typical dog owner can't stay at home all day. I don't think someone that has a job should be told that it's awful they want to get a puppy and still continue working. It is do-able. However... I think a 6 or even 8 hour shift is about the max IMO. If you're working those 10 or 12 hour days... for a puppy? No way... I agree with you there, it's just not fair.

I also didn't crate my boys as pups though if they were going to be left alone for longer than 3 or 4 hours. They got an ex-pen or gated in the bathroom so if they *needed* to relieve themselves (which at that age I expected they would) they could do so and they did not have to sit in it in their crate.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

12 straight hours in a crate for a young puppy, in my opinion, is impossible to defend. At that point, training is not god or even relevant really. That's 7 am to 7 pm or 8 am to 8 pm five days a week. . .


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

"....12 straight hours in a crate for a young puppy, in my opinion, is impossible to defend...."

I absolutely agree with this statement 100%!!! I can't imagine a puppy's body being able to handle this length of time in a crate day after day without it being extremely detrimental to it's growing bones. I've seen what excessive crate time has done to Dane puppies and it's horrible. :no: The resulting bone issues are, a lot of the time, irreversible. I can't imagine it would be any different for a Golden puppy.


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

Don't want to offend anyone on here but why would you get a pup and crate him for a long period like that. I know they adopt but what kinda life is that got this poor pup.
I worry if mine are left alone for more then 4 hours. My daughter Steffi has 2 pups and both of them work, Steffi goes home on lunch break about 12 pm to let them out and Broke let's them out again at around 3 pm. Steffi gets home at 5 pm. 
I would not get a pup if I knew he/she was gonna sit in a cage all day, that's just cruel to the animal. Why have one?


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

Heidi36oh said:


> Don't want to offend anyone on here but why would you get a pup and crate him for a long period like that. I know they adopt but what kinda life is that got this poor pup.
> I worry if mine are left alone for more then 4 hours. My daughter Steffi has 2 pups and both of them work, Steffi goes home on lunch break about 12 pm to let them out and Broke let's them out again at around 3 pm. Steffi gets home at 5 pm.
> I would not get a pup if I knew he/she was gonna sit in a cage all day, that's just cruel to the animal. *Why have one?*


I told my Dad about this thread and that's exactly what he said and he isn't like me with treating the pups like the kids.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I agree dogs can adapt, but being left alone that long. are you going to tell me there happy??????? And I believe they might not be able to tell time but I have one and if Im gone all day she gets an attitude and is mad and ignores me verses being gone a couple hours and she is very happy to see me.


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

I generally work 7-10 hours a day. Usually Eric comes home around 5, so thge longest they are left alone is about 7 hours. I don't think this is cruel. Humans need to work. Dogs need to eat, so we need to be able to pay for it. I'm not one of those over the top folks who's life revolves around my dogs. I have encountered people (mostly online) that don't go places, even things like their kids activities, because they don't want to leave the dog alone. People who don't go on vacations because they don't want to board the dogs or don't trust someone enough to watch them. I love my dogs, I would run back in my burning house if they were still in there...but my life does not revolve around them. I still do things, just like people who have human children still do things. If I couldn't go on a vacation every once in while where I didn't have to scoop litterboxes, let dogs out, clip nails, vacuum...I'd lose my mind. And I love them all that much more when I get home.
That being said, 12 hours a day in a crate from 9 weeks on is too extreme, and the fact that your dog doesn't have any behavioral or emotional problems is pure luck.


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## allux00 (Mar 2, 2008)

What the hell? How can you call yourself a dog lover? To love something is to hold its well being above all else, and clearly you don't do even that. Maybe you LIKE your dog a great deal, but love is not a word you use for something that is just a knick knack for you to look at. Sorry, but just thinking about how this poor dog must feel, lonely all day and nonetheless, lives for the moment you come home and pay some attention to him, makes me horribly upset.


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## Jon Zaremba (Jul 16, 2008)

I knew you gals would think ill of me. I'll respond to each of you in turn:

Jo-Ellen
I never said that i don't care for Dougal's well being. I just don't see any reason to concern myself with the emotions on any being incapable of reason. Dougal rules and he knows it. But he's not a human and honestly, doesn't seem to care that he's not treated like one.

Maggie's Mom
It is nothing to do with luck that he has turned out to be so great. Dogs have been great coinhabitants with humans for thousands of years. This dog worship craze is a recent American phenomena...not more than 20 years old in our culture. It's ok to love your dog excessively as most of us here do. In many ways i admire this in you. But it's simply unnecessary.

Ljilly28
I never intend to "stir up" anything. I'm no troll. The original poster asked for opinions and i gave mine. Just because i think independently and different from you does not mean that i am wrong or looking for trouble around here. As to me sleeping, i only sleep 4 or 5 hours a day. Dougal gets all of my attention when i'm awake. I only work 4 days per week. The three days that i'm off we spend hiking in the mountains, swimming in the lakes, rolling in the mud, and chasing cats. See my photos that i've posted here as evidence for my love of my dog and for his well being. Or visit me on Myspace to see a ton of pictures of our travels together over the past months.

Debles
I do believe in doggy daycare. I work from 12-11 and most day care places will not allow me to pick him up so late at night. However, i may have found a place that will allow him. Also, most daycares will not take such a young pup. Now that he is over 6 months old and can fend well for himself, i am looking for a dog walker or daycare place. If i don't find a place, he'll be fine without.

Blaireli
No, i do not consider myself Dougal's dad. I'm a human. If someone wants children, then have children. I like dogs better than kids and i will not confuse the two.

Jackson's Mom
You asked "why get a dog if you don't care about his emotional wellbeing". Because there is more to life than emotions. The quantity of emotional responses to my post is evidence of this. The mind is superior to the heart.

Flying Quizini
Thank you for your response. As i mentioned in my original post, i would not recommend this situation to a new puppy owner. I said to take my comments "with a grain of salt". I was only voicing my opinion because, while the odds are stacked against you, it is possible to raise a healthy happy dog like Dougal under these circumstances. 

Penny's Mom
Look lady, you're "Penny's" mom. Not mine. Who are you to tell me i should be ashamed of myself. Go find another stranger to try and mother.

Peanut's Mom
I do not have a kid next door. Just some folks who don't speak English and a wonderful older lady who is a bit too old to handle large dogs. I am investigating a walker or daycare as i mentioned above. Also now that Dougal is house trained, he'll have the run of the basement while i'm at work. He wasn't mature enough to earn that responsibility until recently.

Lucky's Mom
Thank you for your post. You disagree with me rationally, and i respect and admire you for it. I just want to mention that Dougal behaves wonderfully. He does not show any signs of anxiety, does not mess in the house, plays well with other dogs at the park, loves all people, does not even bark unless i coax him to, and is all-in-all far better behaved than any dog i've owned since i was a child (i'm 32). 

AmyinAr
I do not type with any sort of tone. I type exactly what i think. You can read anything i've ever written in my adult life quite literally. Because i speak plainly, often times people INJECT a tone into my words. This is no fault of my own.

Hgatesy
Yes, i'm not overly concerned about Dougal's emotional well-being. Please note that i choose all of my words thoughtfully. " I don't put much importance on my dog's emotional wellbeing." I see no reason to put excessive importance on the emotions of any being without consciousness. But even besides that, dogs are far more resilient than humans. They are more emotionally stable than most humans i know. Comparing Dougal to the "mom's" on this forum is my evidence. The moms are pulling out their hair over the condition of my dog who is sleeping with a smile on his face on my feet right now as i type to defend him. He's not worried. Why should they? I bet if he could read this, he'd think you're all bonkers.

Heidi36oh
You asked why i even got a pup in the first place. Because dogs are great companions and they aren't as fragile as you'd think. While i'm a devoted vegetarian, i do not think that animals have rights equal to humans.

Allux00
The definition of "love" is not to hold it's importance above all other things. The best definition of the word love that i've found is that of Ayn Rand. Paraphrasing her as follows: "Love is the emotional expression of one's own values as expressed in another being." That being said, i take offense to your claim that my dog is just a "nic nak". You're free to judge me if you want. I welcome it. However, you judgment can not be defended.

Ok, i think i covered everyone here. If anyone would like to discuss this issue with me, feel free to PM or email me. I'm happy to discuss it one on one. My intention was not to drag this forum into the mud. I've seen how one post can ruin the atmosphere of an online community and i never want to induce that. So it may be best for everyone if you attack me personally, instead of as a mob. Unless you think it's best for the forum otherwise. In that case, i'll continue to defend myself and my pup's happiness publicly against the lot of you.

Sincerely,
Jon Zaremba


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## cinnamonteal (May 16, 2008)

Jon Zaremba said:


> I live alone and have no friends or family.


Honestly, I gotta say that I feel kind of bad for this guy. I mean, here he is, admitting that he's alone except for his dog and we all get a bit emotional and attack him.

I have to agree with you all that I would never ever under any circumstances get a puppy if I had to leave it alone half the day. It's just plain not fair to the dog. But I think that point has been made. And I do think that Jon has a couple good points in there, too. Namely that dogs, while we may love them dearly, are not people and they are not human children.

But here's where I disagree most with you, Jon:



Jon Zaremba said:


> But if you have *no alternative* and are determined to bring a dog into your life...


I think that you over looked a very good alternative, my friend. An adult rescue would have been a very good option for you. I'm afraid that you wasted a whole lot of your dog's puppy-hood and it would have been much easier on both you and your dog if he had been even a year old at the time you brought him home.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

As an owner I do sometimes over indudge my dogs with unnecessary extras...I know that it is more for myself than them, for example their new collars are extremely unnecessary but I like the look of them. Of course the dogs wouldn't care if they had a piece of old rope tied in a knot, but *I* like to buy them a fancy collar. I am well aware that many people do go to extremes with their dogs...treating a dog like a child or baby is entirely unnecessary...dogs do not need clothes (I find clothes on dogs quite horrific) dogs do not need to sleep in their owners bed, dogs do not need someone with them 24 hours a day BUT I do believe that dogs DO need companionship...their very purpose is as a companion or working animal, and at least one or both roles should be fulfilled. I feel I am quite sensible about dog onwership, I ensure my dogs receive 2 long walks a day, where they can run freely and sniff around til their hearts content, they are fed well and are not left alone for extended periods, to me that is the standard of care I am able to offer and is the only standard I would accept. If I wasn't able to offer a high quality of life then I simply would not get a dog (and I didn't for years, until my situation allowed it) If a person is 'determind' to bring a dog in to their life, no matter what the circumstances are then I feel it is a sad reflection of our society. Everyone must have what they want (and must have it NOW) regardless of whether it is appropriate, but when it involves a young puppy, I feel we are getting it drastically wrong. A puppy that is confined to a cage for 12 hours of the day (then further hours while the owner sleeps) is not an acceptable standard of care in my eyes, dogs are not caged animals and the 'crate' is being seriously abused...Now this is where I HATE crates...hate, hate, hate them. I feel they allow people that really should not get dogs to purchase them safe in the knowledge that the little bundle is confined and not doing damage to their property. Crates should be used as a training tool and for short periods of confinement. My crate's manufacturers state that the cage should not be used for longer than 4 hours (which is how I have used mine in the past) so to be putting a young puppy in one for 12 hours...TWELVE hours straight is a serious misuse of what the cage is for. If the only reason you CAN get a puppy is because you have a crate then I think the situation should be closely looked at. 

Of course dogs adapt, (they have no choice), I went to look at the pictures posted of Dougal and he looks so very happy to be out on those lovely walks in the gorgeous scenery you have and like I have said, it is all about the standard of care you are willing to accept for your animals...it is a very personal thing and I guess why many find it so shocking, as their standards are so different. I respect your right to bring up your dog how you wish and it sounds like Dougal has been very resilient to time spent in the crate.

What I am trying to say is I am not responding to this in an emotional 'ohh the pooor baby' kind of way, and that you don't have to treat your dog like a baby or be an over-emotional dog 'mummy' to take issue with extended periods of crate confinemet. I seriously believe that the basic needs of a dog, that is confined to a cage for excessive periods, are not being met. Infact I'm sure I heard that DEFRA were updating the animal welfare act to mention confining dogs in cages (obviously this is only relevant in the UK) but again suggests that it could be an unsuitable situation for the animals welfare.

I have absolutely no desire to contact you personally about this, and of course you don't need to justify the way you keep your dog to me! Just wanted to express my opinions on a public forum and reply to other posters, which is surely what the thread is for!


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## kirst1 (May 30, 2008)

AmyinAr said:


> 12 hours a day alone for a 9 week puppy ... makes me very very sad ... :no:


How sad. I work 3 12 hour shifts a week, and they are left from 7.30-12 noon, then I come home for my dinner break and my mam comes round at 2 (I know I'm lucky to have her living near) until 4pm then my husband gets in at 5pm. I cant imagine leaving them for 12 hours a day. But then I do think of my dogs as one of the family- there would be no point in me getting them otherwise.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

> Allux00
> The definition of "love" is not to hold it's importance above all other things. The best definition of the word love that i've found is that of Ayn Rand. Paraphrasing her as follows: "Love is the emotional expression of one's own values as expressed in another being." That being said, i take offense to your claim that my dog is just a "nic nak". You're free to judge me if you want. I welcome it. However, you judgment can not be defended.



Okay, Rugged Individualist, you got everyone going. Most people do outgrow Ayn Rand about sophmore year. . . Cage your own dog your own way. I'd rather leave my dogs to any of the "moms" you disparage than someone who uses _The Fountainhead_ to justify crating a 9,10, 11 week old puppy routinely for 12 hour stretches while saying it's unconcerning to you. I can see how an older dog given plenty of room could do fine for work days; but my vet's rule of thumb is no more than one hour in a crate for every month old the puppy is. That is pretty much accepted practice and the basic due diligence owed a tiny puppy.


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## msdogs1976 (Dec 21, 2007)

I had the same situation when I got my golden. She was about 8 weeks old. I had no experience with puppies so it was quite a challenge and learning experience. I originally kept her in my bathroom with papers all over the floor. Big bathroom so she had plenty of room. And I would come home at lunch to let her out. But you can imagine the mess so I only abandoned that after a couple of weeks. Then I bought a fold up pen and put that in the garage. I would still come home at lunch to let her out. Not a hot time of the year so she was comfortable. Then at 6 months I installed an invisible fence in my backyard. That worked very well but she did have an appetite for my plants.:doh: 

So we survived it all. Now I'm retired and she stays in the house with me. I play golf almost everyday and drop her off at my mother's house. She's 90 and really enjoys her company during the day.


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## P NUT (Feb 28, 2007)

Why not hire a Professional Dog walker to look after your dog? We did that with ours and we were never away from her for more than 8 hours but we KNEW that the dog needed a bio break and love. Think about this a tad more. You are away from the house for many hours during the day. You come home very tired. Do you really want to take your dog out for a walk and play with it each and every time after a hard days work? If you think just letting the dog out in the yard is OK it isn't. It really should be all about the dog. Please re-think the whole dog issue. I don't think your life style can properly take in a dog at this point. Why do you want one? Something to come home to??? Get a Cat. Sorry Cat lovers but that is what we did way before we could ever even think about looking after a dog. Our Cat lived a very happy and wonderful life with us for 18 1/2 years. 

On another note; as many have said 6 or even 7 weeks is way too young and why would a reputable breeder even let you adopt knowing that you are away from home so much during the day? If the bredder does not care about these things then I would also be very concerned about the health of the dog. (Hips, elbows, eyes etc.)


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## Jon Zaremba (Jul 16, 2008)

Very well said Emma+Tilly.


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

Jon Zaremba said:


> Penny's Mom
> Look lady, you're "Penny's" mom. Not mine. Who are you to tell me i should be ashamed of myself. Go find another stranger to try and mother.
> 
> Peanut's Mom
> I do not have a kid next door. Just some folks who don't speak English and a wonderful older lady who is a bit too old to handle large dogs. I am investigating a walker or daycare as i mentioned above. Also now that Dougal is house trained, he'll have the run of the basement while i'm at work. He wasn't mature enough to earn that responsibility until recently.


First off, I'm glad your looking into finding other options besides crating him for twelve hours. Even without considering emotions, I cannot imagine that much crate time being good for him. Second, the same as you have the right to say the dogs emotional wellbeing is unimportant, we have the right to say why we do feel it is important. Most of "the moms" on this forum are wonderful ladies and if they weren't they probably would not care if your dogs bones develop properly or not due to the excessive crating.

I wish you luck in finding a situation, you can be happy with, that allows your dog more movement while you are working. I'm thinking maybe your statement that your dogs emotional wellbeing is unimportant to you, may have been supposed to mean "I do not place his emotional wellbeing over my own". I certainly hope you didn't mean that you don't care if he's happy or not.
BTW, I am a "mom" to the furkids and also two human kids. I don't place the furkids over my human kids, although I do make sure my children learn to respect animals, and treat them as emotional beings. 
Again, I applaud you for looking for a better solution for your pup.
Oh yeah and, Penny'smom is a great lady only speaking out of showing concern for the wellbeing of your dog. Everyone on this forum adores goldens; that's why were here


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

P NUT said:


> Why not hire a Professional Dog walker to look after your dog? We did that with ours and we were never away from her for more than 8 hours but we KNEW that the dog needed a bio break and love. Think about this a tad more. You are away from the house for many hours during the day. You come home very tired. Do you really want to take your dog out for a walk and play with it each and every time after a hard days work? If you think just letting the dog out in the yard is OK it isn't. It really should be all about the dog. Please re-think the whole dog issue. I don't think your life style can properly take in a dog at this point. Why do you want one? Something to come home to??? Get a Cat. Sorry Cat lovers but that is what we did way before we could ever even think about looking after a dog. Our Cat lived a very happy and wonderful life with us for 18 1/2 years.
> 
> On another note; as many have said 6 or even 7 weeks is way too young and why would a reputable breeder even let you adopt knowing that you are away from home so much during the day? If the bredder does not care about these things then I would also be very concerned about the health of the dog. (Hips, elbows, eyes etc.)



:appl::appl::appl:

EXACTLY!

Just because you WANT a puppy doesn't mean you should have one. People need to see the care of an animal as a responsibility that should not be taken lightly. If you can't adequately care for a puppy, realize that there are MILLIONS of dogs put down in shelters each year and get an older dog through a rescue or shelter or WAIT until your lifestyle can work for the dog/puppy that you desire.

People WANTING puppies but not researching the time/effort it takes to keep one is one of the main reasons we see so many dogs abandoned ... they are suffering for people not being able to have self control over their wants ...


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Well if you dont think its luck your dog turned out this way then maybe you should go volunteer for a rescue and see the many many dogs that come in that live in your dogs situation...dogs that were crated to long, busting out, non social, aggressive to other dogs, separation anxiety,destructive and the list goes on and why are these dogs like this.....Because these dogs spent the majority of there time alone.


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## Penny'smom (Mar 3, 2007)

Thanks, Peanuts Mom. I'm sure Jon's dog, who knows nothing better and has no choice lives/exists with the situation. But, if he had a choice, I'm sure he'd rather be in any of our homes instead. 

In prison, solitary confinement allows for only 1 hour out of the cell. Dougal gets only a little more than that.

I feel the other working dog 'parents' at least care about their dogs' emotional well being and do their best to to get home to their dogs and take care of their needs.

Jon, do not mistake my opinion as a need to 'mother' you. I care less for you than I do your dog.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Penny'smom said:


> Thanks, Peanuts Mom. I'm sure Jon's dog, who knows nothing better and has no choice lives/exists with the situation. But, if he had a choice, I'm sure he'd rather be in any of our homes instead.
> 
> In prison, solitary confinement allows for only 1 hour out of the cell. Dougal gets only a little more than that.
> 
> ...


Wonderfully said.


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

PeanutsMom said:


> I told my Dad about this thread and that's exactly what he said and he isn't like me with treating the pups like the kids.


 
It would really hurt me to leave a little pup for that long. I just don't get it why would you want a puppy if you're not home alllll day. What you get maybe 3 hours with the poor baby. Think about yourself in a cage or house looked up for 10 hours, no one to come see you, That's got to be horrible.


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## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

I do not think you should be getting a dog let alone a young puppy when you are not home for 12+ hours per day. Second of all, the Golden Retriever breed is probably the neediest breed of human companionship. It would be terribly cruel to make a Golden live it's life alone for 12+ hours per day while you are out and about during the day. 

If you are hell bent on getting a dog, even though I don't think your situation lends itself to having a dog, why don't you look at other breeds that aren't as needy. My husband and I have both a Golden Retriever and a Whippet. I don't want to generalize the Whippet breed but really our Whippet could care less if we are around or not. We barely see him around in the house. He goes off to sleep and is very much a loner and very cat like in his ways. He would rather not go for walks although we make him and as soon as we are home and his leash comes off he runs and finds a sleeping spot and it's the last we see of him for hours. We can be away from home for 3 or 4 hours and we come in and he's no where to be found while the Golden is acting like she hasn't seen us in weeks. We eventually may find him sleeping on the couch and that's more important to him than us being home and he sees no reason no get up. He only comes around when he wants something i.e., food. He rarely comes around for attention and he is not one to like being fawned over. The Golden is the complete opposite - she wants to be with us and at our feet constantly, doing what we're doing, being pet, socializing with anyone she can. The pizza delivery guy or courier guy is treated like a new best friend every time. Goldens love people and it's one of their endearing traits. I cannot imagine a Golden being happy being left alone for long days on end. Having said this, both my husband and I work but we are away from home for 8 hours a day tops and my husband comes home at noon for his lunch and spends the time outside with the dogs. When we wanted a Golden we knew it was not ethical for us to get a puppy, which is why we adopted a 2 year old that was trained and settled. Every evening whether I feel like it or not she is walked for at least 30 mins and has play time in our back yard. I pay $20 per visit for the Golden to attend daycare at least once per week to break up the time she is at home while we work and I still have guilt that she is alone too much. Please reconsider your plans to get a puppy.


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

Heidi36oh
You asked why i even got a pup in the first place. Because dogs are great companions and they aren't as fragile as you'd think. While i'm a devoted vegetarian, i do not think that animals have rights equal to humans.

Don't you feel a bit sad leaving you're pup for that long, how about a babysitter that comes in maybe twice a day to let him out and feeds him. I know here it's only like $ 10 dollars a day for someone to come in 5 - 6 times a day.


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## Jon Zaremba (Jul 16, 2008)

> Don't you feel a bit sad leaving you're pup for that long, how about a babysitter that comes in maybe twice a day to let him out and feeds him. I know here it's only like $ 10 dollars a day for someone to come in 5 - 6 times a day.


Do i feel guilty? No. Do i feel sad? Yes. But it's not the end of the world for either of us.

I've been investigating a dog walker or daycare for several weeks now. I won't bore you with the details, but i haven't found a person/place yet. There's one daycare place that may work out for 2 of my 4 work days. If i do find a walker, expecting them to come 5-6 times per day is ludicrous. Once would be plenty.

Jon Z.


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

doggie daycare-socialization, interaction, exercise, structure...nothing better for a dog who has to be left alone all day, even more so for a puppy.


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

Jon Zaremba said:


> Do i feel guilty? No. Do i feel sad? Yes. But it's not the end of the world for either of us.
> 
> I've been investigating a dog walker or daycare for several weeks now. I won't bore you with the details, but i haven't found a person/place yet. There's one daycare place that may work out for 2 of my 4 work days. If i do find a walker, expecting them to come 5-6 times per day is ludicrous. Once would be plenty.
> 
> Jon Z.


Someone interacting with your dog every other hour??!!!OMG you are SOOOO right, that is LUDICROUS!!!!

:no:


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I would think a dog walker/sitter to come in once for a half hour to walk/play/feed Dougal would be great! and daycare two other days! YEA!


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## Blaireli (Jun 3, 2008)

Debles said:


> I would think a dog walker/sitter to come in once for a half hour to walk/play/feed Dougal would be great! and daycare two other days! YEA!


I agree. That would be a great step up from now, in my opinion. If you could get them to come twice, that would be fantastic. Maybe four hours after you leave and then four hours later, so it's evenly spaced out until you get home.


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## Fransheska (Mar 9, 2008)

ive given up alot to have more time with my dogs, thats what having a dog means! it means being unselfish and sharing ur life with another living breathing feeling animal. 
if u wanted a pet that u could just have and wouldnt affect your life at all, try a stuffed animal or maybe a goldfish. 
my happiness is important, but so is my dogs! thats why i try and come home early, make sure my dog is at day care or has a long walk on the days i have sports practice after school, i know that my dog CAN learn to be in a crate that long.. but i wouldnt want him to have to. and thats what loving ur dog is all about in my opinion. i dont even think of it as "giving up happiness" because imagine how much love and happiness i get from being with my dog. this doesnt mean i can devote 24/7 of my life to my dog, but that does mean i make effort to give that dog as much joy as he gives me


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Leaving a puppy locked in a crate for 12 hrs would be a disaster, IMO. First you've got the potty issues. Which leads to sanitary issues. Even if you leave food and water there....yuk. All of your free evening time will be spent bathing the dog, sanitizing the crate, bowls, etc. Not a pretty picture.

And then you've got the socialization issues. A puppy needs to be handled, trained, and have human interaction/stimulus consistently and constantly to grow into a well-balanced, secure, good pet/family member. Without this interaction at a young age, problems will develop that will be much more difficult to correct later on. Bonding is very very important.......and that takes time and attention.

Leaving any creature totally alone in a cage/crate for that long, routinely, borders on cruelty to me. What would be the point, exactly?

I honestly don't understand why anyone would want to take on the responsibility of a living being (with emotions, and needs), if they don't have time to "do it right".

Maybe a puppy isn't "human", but still.....all things considered....it isn't a plastic wind up toy either.

Have you considered a nice, decorative, aquarium? Fish don't need a lot of time...and tend to be lower-maintenance.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Ardeagold said:


> Leaving any creature totally alone in a cage/crate for that long, routinely, borders on cruelty to me.


It does to me too...I'm positive that the dog will have become resigned to it now but I dread to think what went on for that puppy in the first few days of 12 hour isolation in the crate. The pup must have been sat next to its own faeces and urine for hours.


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## Fransheska (Mar 9, 2008)

how about a dog safe room instead of a crate? and you could get one of those fake grass dog toilets. 
its better than being in a crate all day, at least he could walk around


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I am not saying I agree or disagree with Jon Zaremba, but has everyone looked at all of his posts. He has posted pictures of Dougal and some of his adventures and his dog does look healthy and happy. I agree a small puppy shouldnt be left alone that long but the dog is now 8 months old and seems to be loved and taken well care of. He works 4 days a week not 7 so the dog is not left all alone everyday of his life. And only sleeps a short time 4-5 hrs a night. So that other time is spent with Dougal and we dont know what they do during this time. While all of us would have liked for him to have more time as a pup to play, the time he does share with his dad looks to be good quality time. And dogs dont know the concept of time like we do and usually sleep the whole time we are gone. 
I know of some people (not here on the forum) that have a dog that just lay around and get to go inside and outside with no time playing with other dogs or even really their owners. I have talked to these people till I am blue in the face, but they say he has food,shelter, attention (alittle) and sleeps inside so that is all he needs. That dog has never been around other dogs and has had no training how to teach him to be a good dog. He is kept in a crate at night and put in the yard during the day with some shelter and food and water. To me that would be just as bad as being in a crate for 12 hours a day or worse. 
I know also from another post on the forum, Jon is looking at widening his area in the basement where he has keeping him. He might be in a crate like a fencing type and not a box crate like most of us think. 
Like I said, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with what he has done but Dougal does sound loved by Jon. 
Lets all step back and keep the comments about getting rid of him or getting fish or stuffed animal and help Jon with suggestions to improve Dougals time alone.


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## Fransheska (Mar 9, 2008)

BeauShel said:


> I am not saying I agree or disagree with Jon Zaremba, but has everyone looked at all of his posts. He has posted pictures of Dougal and some of his adventures and his dog does look healthy and happy. I agree a small puppy shouldnt be left alone that long but the dog is now 8 months old and seems to be loved and taken well care of. He works 4 days a week not 7 so the dog is not left all alone everyday of his life. And only sleeps a short time 4-5 hrs a night. So that other time is spent with Dougal and we dont know what they do during this time. While all of us would have liked for him to have more time as a pup to play, the time he does share with his dad looks to be good quality time. And dogs dont know the concept of time like we do and usually sleep the whole time we are gone.
> I know of some people (not here on the forum) that have a dog that just lay around and get to go inside and outside with no time playing with other dogs or even really their owners. I have talked to these people till I am blue in the face, but they say he has food,shelter, attention (alittle) and sleeps inside so that is all he needs. To me that would be just as bad as being in a crate for 12 hours a day or worse.
> I know also from another post on the forum, Jon is looking at widing his area in the basement where he has keeping him. He might be in a crate like a fencing type and not a box crate like most of us think.
> Like I said, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with what he has done but Dougal does sound loved by Jon.
> Lets all step back and keep the comments about getting rid of him or getting fish or stuffed animal and help Jon with suggestions to improve Dougals time alone.


i agree. i actually went back and read all the posts by the author and skipped every1 elses. and although there is room for improvements, it isnt a bad home, and the dog does seem happy and healthy. by being a member of GRF..it shows he does care about his dog. i was influence a bit too much about all the other posts when i mentioned the stuffed animal and the fish, and for that im sorry to the original poster.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

BeauShel said:


> I am not saying I agree or disagree with Jon Zaremba, but has everyone looked at all of his posts. He has posted pictures of Dougal and some of his adventures and his dog does look healthy and happy. I agree a small puppy shouldnt be left alone that long but the dog is now 8 months old and seems to be loved and taken well care of. He works 4 days a week not 7 so the dog is not left all alone everyday of his life. And only sleeps a short time 4-5 hrs a night. So that other time is spent with Dougal and we dont know what they do during this time. While all of us would have liked for him to have more time as a pup to play, the time he does share with his dad looks to be good quality time. And dogs dont know the concept of time like we do and usually sleep the whole time we are gone.
> I know of some people (not here on the forum) that have a dog that just lay around and get to go inside and outside with no time playing with other dogs or even really their owners. I have talked to these people till I am blue in the face, but they say he has food,shelter, attention (alittle) and sleeps inside so that is all he needs. That dog has never been around other dogs and has had no training how to teach him to be a good dog. He is kept in a crate at night and put in the yard during the day with some shelter and food and water. To me that would be just as bad as being in a crate for 12 hours a day or worse.
> I know also from another post on the forum, Jon is looking at widening his area in the basement where he has keeping him. He might be in a crate like a fencing type and not a box crate like most of us think.
> Like I said, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with what he has done but Dougal does sound loved by Jon.
> Lets all step back and keep the comments about getting rid of him or getting fish or stuffed animal and help Jon with suggestions to improve Dougals time alone.


thank you for pointing this out.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

BeauShel said:


> I am not saying I agree or disagree with Jon Zaremba, but has everyone looked at all of his posts. He has posted pictures of Dougal and some of his adventures and his dog does look healthy and happy. I agree a small puppy shouldnt be left alone that long but the dog is now 8 months old and seems to be loved and taken well care of. He works 4 days a week not 7 so the dog is not left all alone everyday of his life. And only sleeps a short time 4-5 hrs a night. So that other time is spent with Dougal and we dont know what they do during this time. While all of us would have liked for him to have more time as a pup to play, the time he does share with his dad looks to be good quality time. And dogs dont know the concept of time like we do and usually sleep the whole time we are gone.
> I know of some people (not here on the forum) that have a dog that just lay around and get to go inside and outside with no time playing with other dogs or even really their owners. I have talked to these people till I am blue in the face, but they say he has food,shelter, attention (alittle) and sleeps inside so that is all he needs. That dog has never been around other dogs and has had no training how to teach him to be a good dog. He is kept in a crate at night and put in the yard during the day with some shelter and food and water. To me that would be just as bad as being in a crate for 12 hours a day or worse.
> I know also from another post on the forum, Jon is looking at widening his area in the basement where he has keeping him. He might be in a crate like a fencing type and not a box crate like most of us think.
> Like I said, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with what he has done but Dougal does sound loved by Jon.
> Lets all step back and keep the comments about getting rid of him or getting fish or stuffed animal and help Jon with suggestions to improve Dougals time alone.


That's the point I've been trying to make all along!


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

My biggest concern (now that Dougal is somewhat older and better able to hold his bladder and bowels while in his crate) is the comment about not caring about the dog's emotional well-being. Dogs do have emotions, and IMHO, emotional health is just as important as physical health. I did watch the video of Dougal swimming, and he does look happy and healthy.


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

Jackson'sMom said:


> My biggest concern (now that Dougal is somewhat older and better able to hold his bladder and bowels while in his crate) is the comment about not caring about the dog's emotional well-being. Dogs do have emotions, and IMHO, emotional health is just as important as physical health. I did watch the video of Dougal swimming, and he does look happy and healthy.



thank you! everyone else seems to have forgotten that the original issue was the "I don't care about dog's emotional wellbeing" then we found out about the 12 hours of crating ...


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

But he didn't say he *didn't* care about his dog's emotional well being. He said he put more importance on his, the human's than he did on his dogs.

If he truly didn't care at all about his dog's emotional well being, he wouldn't spent the time he does with his dog.

Again, I'm not saying I think his situation was perfect, I'm just saying I suspect we've taken that one statement and assumed the absolute worst from it.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> But he didn't say he *didn't* care about his dog's emotional well being. He said he put more importance on his, the human's than he did on his dogs.
> 
> If he truly didn't care at all about his dog's emotional well being, he wouldn't spent the time he does with his dog.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying I think his situation was perfect, I'm just saying I suspect we've taken that one statement and assumed the absolute worst from it.


What he wrote was, and I quote: "I don't put much importance on my dog's emotional wellbeing." I interpret that to mean he doesn't care "much" about his dog's emotional health.


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## Cam's Mom (Apr 13, 2007)

You can have dogs who are beaten, and they will still look happy and play with their beaters.

There are many people who mistreat dogs and kids, and still say they love them. And lots of dogs and kids who willingly go back into that situation. They know no other. It's one of the dilemas child proctective officers face daily. I think there is some similarity between children and dogs(although I agree dogs are not kids)in that both are dependant on the whim or the parents/owners for affection, security, and comfort.

Beating is cruel, starving is cruel, caging and social isolation over long periods are cruel.

So, along the lines of crating for 12 hours 4 days a week, I could argue that I can beat my dog four days a week, but that's OK, because three days a week I don't and we go hiking and swimming and have a great time?

The original question wasn't even Jon's. It was someone asking if crating a pup all day was possible. Yes it is, it's that simple. But it's also cruel, and very selfish.

To want the companionship, sheer joy and love that comes from a dog, but then leave that very young sentient, highly social, being for 12 hours a day in solitary confinement is cruel. This pup who has recently been taken from the reassurance and secrurity of it's mother and siblings. I don't see any argument to justify that behavior.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I am just grateful he's looking into a dogwalker and a doggie daycare currently.


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## Jon Zaremba (Jul 16, 2008)

Ardeagold said:


> Leaving a puppy locked in a crate for 12 hrs would be a disaster, IMO. First you've got the potty issues. Which leads to sanitary issues. Even if you leave food and water there....yuk. All of your free evening time will be spent bathing the dog, sanitizing the crate, bowls, etc. Not a pretty picture.


Untrue. Dougal rarely messed in the crate. My free evening time was spent hiking with him, playing, and showing him off around town.



> And then you've got the socialization issues. A puppy needs to be handled, trained, and have human interaction/stimulus consistently and constantly to grow into a well-balanced, secure, good pet/family member. Without this interaction at a young age, problems will develop that will be much more difficult to correct later on. Bonding is very very important.......and that takes time and attention.


Untrue. Dougal is nearly 9 months old now. He is well socialized, well-balanced, and secure. We've spent lots of time with other dogs at the park and on the trails. He loves all people especially kids.



> I honestly don't understand why anyone would want to take on the responsibility of a living being (with emotions, and needs), if they don't have time to "do it right".


There is no "right" way to raise a puppy. Just like there is no right way to raise a child. Please do not be so totalitarian with people like me whom you've never met. He shows absolutely no signs of anxiety, a quality that is common amongst dogs who are smothered by their owners.



> Have you considered a nice, decorative, aquarium? Fish don't need a lot of time...and tend to be lower-maintenance.


Dougal is still young at 9 months. I suppose there is time for him to develop all of these horrible traits that you describe. But honestly, i think he's past all of that at this point and is doing fine by all objective accounts.



BeauShel said:


> I know also from another post on the forum, Jon is looking at widening his area in the basement where he has keeping him. He might be in a crate like a fencing type and not a box crate like most of us think.


Thank you for this. As mentioned previously also, i've been searching for a daycare place since i can't find a dog walker. There is a Canine Countryclub that Dougal will probably become a member of. This will happen twice per week. My other two work days, Dougal has the run of the basement. Were the first couple of months hard on him while i was at work? Perhaps. But there's been no damage done and while you may not believe me, i think that his great behavior as a teen has a lot to do with the combination of intense love and intense discipline that he experienced as a baby.



Jackson'sMom said:


> My biggest concern (now that Dougal is somewhat older and better able to hold his bladder and bowels while in his crate) is the comment about not caring about the dog's emotional well-being.


Please do more than read every other word in my sentences. I'll quote myself once more as follows: "I don't put much importance on my dog's emotional wellbeing." This quite different than saying that i do not care about his emotional well-being. I do care, but i don't place excessive importance on it. It has been my experience that dog owners who are always worried about their pet's emotions do so because they have no control of their own. I don't even think that anyone knew that dogs had emotions until about 20 years ago. There used to be a saying that was popular up through the 70's for anyone who was down and out on their luck -- "It's a dog's life". It is no wonder that nobody uses this expression any more. Most dogs in America live better than most humans in the rest of the world. There is certainly something admirable about this. But at the end of the day, being overly concerned about your dog's emotions is simply unnecessary. I don't think that the dog is as worried about his emotions (if at all) as the owner may be.



Cam's Mom said:


> So, along the lines of crating for 12 hours 4 days a week, I could argue that I can beat my dog four days a week, but that's OK, because three days a week I don't and we go hiking and swimming and have a great time?


This is perhaps the most illogical analogy i've read in a long time. To equate letting a dog sleep in solitude for extended periods of time (a passive action) to beating him (an aggressive action) is infantile.

Everyone has been stressing the fact that dogs are instinctively pack animals. Nobody has mentioned that in the wild they pretty much just lay around all day in a den/cave no bigger than the crate at my house. If you are going to stress one instinct, why not stress the others as well?

---

Thanks to the few who have spoken up...not to necessarily defend me (because i ask for no such defense)...but to at least offer the opportunity for clarity in this discussion.


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

This thread certainly is interesting.

I have to say I put a great deal of thought into my dog's emotional well-being. Beacause I view them as human? No. Because I made a choice to bring a living creature into my home that relies on me for food, water, shelter and companionship. Training, rules and boundaries are also needed so we can co-exist.

I think this thread has shown that all have different ideas of cruelty. I would not leave my dogs alone for 12 hours but I also would not have a dog if I didn't walk it twice a day. I can't remember names but I know at least one person here who does not walk their dog. I see many US shows in which people only let their dog go in their yard. To me this is cruel as well but I am sure many people wouldn't agree.

Of course dogs adapt. Every species learns to adapt but the real question is, is it fair to make a dog adapt to 12 in a crate? I say no.


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## Jon Zaremba (Jul 16, 2008)

Lisa_and_Willow. said:


> Of course dogs adapt. Every species learns to adapt but the real question is, is it fair to make a dog adapt to 12 in a crate? I say no.


Very well said, Lisa. If only people would have responded this way in the beginning...


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

Jon Zaremba said:


> Very well said, Lisa. If only people would have responded this way in the beginning...


Thankyou. I could never agree with it but I have seen animals kept a lot worse. Someone I know used to keep 2 german shepherds in the house all the time except for going into the garden for toilet breaks. They were not crated but their room became just like a crate only bigger.

At least Dougal gets chance to run and play with you outside.

Good luck finding other ways to keep Dougal when you are at work.


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## Faith's mommy (Feb 26, 2007)

for those who are saying a dog shouldn't be in a crate for 12 hours a day (and i don't disagree), i wonder how you feel about those that are in a crate for 16+ hours a day - both during the day while you work, and at night while you sleep.


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

Faith's mommy said:


> for those who are saying a dog shouldn't be in a crate for 12 hours a day (and i don't disagree), i wonder how you feel about those that are in a crate for 16+ hours a day - both during the day while you work, and at night while you sleep.



To answer this, I would not get a puppy if this was the situation. It is irresponsible in my opinion. If you are going to be gone all day at work and can't take an extended period of time off (think a teacher who has the summer off) then I feel you should wait until that is a possibility or adopt an older dog.

When Bailey was a puppy, she was crated for about 4 hours while I was in class. She was in a crate at night for about 2 weeks until she got the hang of things. This was a temporary training tool not a lifestyle for her. She now is never crated as I have spent the time to make sure she has earned the right to be out in the house as we are gone.

I think people need to sit back and think before they bring a living creature dependent on them into their lives. Puppies need lots of things (no matter how many times Jon says "wrong again or NO they dont" and if you cannot make the time commitment, then commit to finding a dog who fits your lifestyle. 

from paw rescue . org :

*""Do not overuse the crate:* 
* Do not commit the sin of over-use. Limit time in the crate to only 3 to 4 hours for puppies and 8 hours maximum for mature dogs. In fact, some canine experts advise that 6 hours is the longest that canines can reasonably endure in a crate each day. There is a limit to how long canines can control their bladders and bowels. And even though you should strive to make the crate a truly safe, comfortable, pleasant den, it still isolates the dog from the family and environmental stimuli. Without sufficient daily exposure to people and environmental stimuli, and without sufficient daily exercise, your dog will suffer mentally and physically, and this will have an adverse effect on temperament and behavior. 
* You need to teach your dog how to behave properly in the house, and interact properly with people and other companion animals in the home. Your goal is to gradually reduce time the dog spends in the crate and increase the freedom of movement in the home. You do not have to give your dog total access, but the dog should be able to spend time in some parts of the home. 
* The effects of excessive use of the crate include environmental deprivation, anxiety, hyper behavior (due to lack of exercise and limited movement) and socialization problems, since dogs truly need interaction with people and exposure to a variety of stimulation (people, places, other animals, experiences) to become a good, stable, well-mannered companion.""


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## heartofgold (Oct 27, 2007)

All I can say about this is what I know, what I've seen with my own eyes and what I have experienced first hand in my own life. I got Scout 10 months ago and the very next week my friend went out and got a puppy of her own after she experienced some "puppy love" when she met Scout. My friend works full time (8 hours a day) plus 1 hour total commute. She goes to class three nights a week from 7pm to 9 pm and also has to study those off nights. I am in the real estate business and work some evenings and weekends (about 20 hours a week). My husband is home with Scout during all those evenings and weekends so she is rarely left alone. Scout was fully potty trained day and night by the time she was 12 weeks old. She knows all basic obedience, her recall is exceptional, and she knows many tricks, she will get her canine good citizen next month, and is starting agility training in the fall. She was voted "teachers pet" in puppy training class. She is always around other dogs as well, goes with me almost everywhere dogs are aloud to go. 

Then, there is my friends dog. 10 months old also. My friend is looking for a new home for her. She "loves her to death" but feels guilty for not giving her the time she deserves. Anyone interested in a beautiful full blooded "petstore" cavelier king charles spaniel puppy? She is not well trained, not socialized, potties on the floor every once in awhile, has some separation anxiety, and is very very sweet. 

Sometimes love just isn't good enough don't you think?


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I agree if you get a puppy then it shouldnt be in a crate any longer than 3-4 hours at a time.... I foster nothing but puppies and they arent in crates any longer than that.... I do have the option to take my dogs or fosters to work and do sometimes but for the most part dont. If Im at work and end up staying later I have someone come in and let the dogs out... For the most part my son is in and out but if he cant then his friends love to come over and play with all of them. We as the foster parents get the final say on where our foster pups go and I wont adopt to a family that works 8-10 hours a day. I still have Rosie for that very reason.... she is 4 1/2 months totally house broken and can go 8 hours in a crate without using the bathroom but I dont believe in crating a puppy that long and wont and if that means I keep her longer so be it ...there will be a family out there for her.


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

Jon Zaremba said:


> Do i feel guilty? No. Do i feel sad? Yes. But it's not the end of the world for either of us.
> 
> I've been investigating a dog walker or daycare for several weeks now. I won't bore you with the details, but i haven't found a person/place yet. There's one daycare place that may work out for 2 of my 4 work days. If i do find a walker, expecting them to come 5-6 times per day is ludicrous. Once would be plenty.
> 
> Jon Z.


They come here for 5 to 6 times a day at $ 10 a day, I know that's a lot but once or twice would be nice. Good luck in finding someone, I would do it if I was closer..LOL


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## jcasks (Oct 14, 2007)

Well I just read every single post, and I must say I am glad I did before posting after reading the first few. 

All I will say is that 99% of the time I come to this forum and read it makes me so happy to see all the other happy dogs and owners. Then there is 1% of the time where I read a post and cringe at the thought of what another dog has gone through or is going through.


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

AmyinAr said:


> When Bailey was a puppy, she was crated for about 4 hours while I was in class. She was in a crate at night for about 2 weeks until she got the hang of things. This was a temporary training tool not a lifestyle for her. She now is never crated as I have spent the time to make sure she has earned the right to be out in the house as we are gone.


This is what I did with Willow. I planned getting both my puppies at a time when I could have 2 weeks off work and then work shorter shifts or plan my work around when my mum worked so Willow wouldn't be in the crate for more than 3-4 hours maximum. I know this is not possible with everyone but this is what I chose to do to give my pup a good start in terms of potty training and socialisation.

After about 2 weeks she was out of the crate and into the kitchen/hallway with Diesel.


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

To the Original Posters
There are only two reasonable alternatives.

*Quit your job.* Both of you. Then you can spend your whole day with your puppy.
In a cardboard box. (If you have a choice, refrigerator boxes are especially nice.)

*Get a Chi-Newf:* Forget about a Golden and all that pesky walking and housebreaking.
Buy a* Chihuahua-Newfoundland hybrid,* the dog with *the Bladder of Steel!!*

They only have to be *walked* as often as you change the oil in your car: 
*Every 3 months or 3,000 miles.*

As for the Jon Zaremba posts (and point for point rebuttals), can you say _troll_?
I _knew_ you could.

Gotta go and let the chicken out.

allen


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> As for the Jon Zaremba posts (and point for point rebuttals), can you say troll?
> I knew you could.


:lol: :lol: Trolls are good for one thing tho.......they keep the adrenaline flowing! (And the forum going when things get a little "slow")

However, the topic was started by someone else. So.......I guess he got an earful (or eyeful). ROFL


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

Which is why I'm going to start a thread shouting the praises of...

Pet Store Puppies!! (Why _can't_ I buy a dog with a credit card?)

Backyard Breeders !! (That's not a patio that's a _kennel_!)

Alpha Rolls!! (On the next _Dog Whisperer_...)

Store Brand Dog Food!! (If it's good enough for senior citizens)

and Ayn Rand!!!

Am I forgetting anything??

Allen


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

avincent52 said:


> Which is why I'm going to start a thread shouting the praises of...
> 
> Pet Store Puppies!! (Why _can't_ I buy a dog with a credit card?)
> 
> ...



By far my favorite post of the day hahaha


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

> By far my favorite post of the day hahaha


What do you mean by that???


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

just a great humorous post in perhaps my least favorite thread EVER! you know what I mean!!!


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## Jon Zaremba (Jul 16, 2008)

avincent52 said:


> As for the Jon Zaremba posts (and point for point rebuttals), can you say _troll_?
> I _knew_ you could.


Untrue. As i mentioned earlier, my intention was not to cause trouble here.


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

Jon Zaremba said:


> Untrue. As i mentioned earlier, my intention was not to cause trouble here.


Intentional or not, you did. 
I found it all good fun. Others, I assume, did not. 

best
Allen


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## Jon Zaremba (Jul 16, 2008)

Yes Allen. But this does not make me a troll. A troll is someone who only joins a forum to push people's buttons and start arguments. I've posted in several other threads here and have done my best to contribute just like everyone else.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

avincent52 said:


> Intentional or not, you did.
> I found it all good fun. Others, I assume, did not.
> 
> best
> Allen


He was expressing an opinion. I think the rather mean and personal attack comments that followed was the "trolling" trouble. Not really trying to create more issues here but I KNOW what a troll is, and a differing opinion is not a troll.

( I know you don't need or want defending here Jon...just had an issue with the semantics..)


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> There is no "right" way to raise a puppy. Just like there is no right way to raise a child.


You're absolutely correct. However, some methods are viewed by society as humane and others, inhumane. Generally, it would be viewed as inhumane to leave an infant in a crib for 12 straight hours, and I believe that most feel the same way about leaving a young puppy in a crate for that same amount of time. In fact, the majority viewpoint on a board such as this one (a board for DOG lovers), would more than likely be that it's not only inhumane, but cruel.



> Please do not be so totalitarian with people like me whom you've never met.


Sorry. I tend to address totalitarian viewpoints with which I disagree, with my own totalitarian viewpoints. 



> He shows absolutely no signs of anxiety, a quality that is common amongst dogs who are smothered by their owners.


I'm very happy to hear that, and I truly hope his temperament and behavior continues to be above reproach. However, although anxiety can be a result of "dogs who are smothered by their owners", I certainly wouldn't view it as the most common reason for anxious behavior. (Is it just me or am I hearing echoes of The Dog Whisperer here???)


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## Jon Zaremba (Jul 16, 2008)

> Sorry. I tend to address totalitarian viewpoints with which I disagree, with my own totalitarian viewpoints.


As i mentioned in my original reply, i urged the original poster to take my comments with a grain of salt. I have not acted the least bit totalitarian in any of my posts on this board and it is intellectually dishonest of you to insinuate that i have.



> (Is it just me or am I hearing echoes of The Dog Whisperer here???)


I don't have TV so i've never seen this how. Perhaps you're just hearing echoes in general.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> Perhaps you're just hearing echoes in general.


Now now, obtuse insults aren't necessary...nor are they pertinent to the subject at hand.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

Methinks this thread has gone about as far as it's going to go without deteriorating into personal attacks. Perhaps it needs to be closed.


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

At this point there is no need to close this thread. 
However if everyone has made a point then leave it at that and do not let this escalate. Everyone has a different way they love, raise and interact with their dogs and we are all not going to agree with each other on every topic of that. So without actually closing this thread let's just move on to the next topic or thread and go from here.


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