# Anyone use Creekside Goldens in Nickelsville, VA



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I answered more fully on your other thread but just a note, no website is a 100% that the breeders there are reputable. Always do your due diligence and verify claims. 

If she is doing eyes annually, does she have an explanation as to why she does not pay the $8-$12 to have them certified by OFA. At that price point it seems to me recording health certifications would be a reasonable expectation. The other up side is that the test would be verified as legitimate. I have seen eye exam forms faked and/or altered.


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## mrsb28wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

It is my understanding she is satisfied with the results as they are and doesn't see the need. 

We spent an hour on the phone discussing many things and one of them was certifications and health clearances. She is content with using BVA for her clearances and prefers the number system they use. She hasn't had anyone ask to have these things verified by OFA- she understands they are certified but is content with the certifications on paper in her office and will produce them if asked. 

It would take a long post to explain everything we discussed, and as I've stated I'm no expert but we discussed just about everything that has been suggested on here either by email or over the phone. 

She is very similar to Louise from Stoneledge- the one who charges $3500- but she takes an even more holistic stance with raising her dogs. She is confident in the dogs' clearances and encourages holisitic living. She also does not offer a warranty of sorts, but is extremely personable and wants to build a relationship with owners of her puppies and will make it right if there is an issue. 

I homeschool and have a more holistic view of medicine and living than the average person, so one of the reasons I was drawn to Creekside was the holistic viewpoint as well as the temperaments and clearances of the dog. She has done her research and is a responsible owner/breeder from my perspective. There are others who stick to the book that wouldn't agree and I'm ok with that. 

Is it pricey- yes, I believe so, but it is what the market for the EG allows, especially in the Northeast.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

FWIW I was presented with "normal" eye exams for both parents & neither were filed with OFA. I was naive.. 
3 months after pups went home another exam was done on the mom and filed... she had cataracts at age 3.

Sire showed normal on exam results I was shown but nothing filed with OFA since 2015. This is when I learned about eye exams  Sire presented with Distichiasis & Uveal Cyst. 

My precious girl failed her eye exams with Retinal Dysplasia - geographic, a serious condition that will pass on to the next generation. A condition that can't be fixed and does affect her ability to do competitive obedience.

There is no excuse not to file the exams or for not keeping them current before breeding.


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## mrsb28wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

puddles everywhere said:


> FWIW I was presented with "normal" eye exams for both parents & neither were filed with OFA. I was naive..
> 3 months after pups went home another exam was done on the mom and filed... she had cataracts at age 3.
> 
> Sire showed normal on exam results I was shown but nothing filed with OFA since 2015. This is when I learned about eye exams  Sire presented with Distichiasis & Uveal Cyst.
> ...


So do you believe if they had been filed with OFA it would have been caught or that something was altered bc it wasn't filed with OFA?


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## mrsb28wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

Also, I'm confused, is OFA the only way to tell if a dogs eyes pass? Do they oversee the vet that does it? If a breeder has their eyes checked every year and has the papers to prove it, what does OFA do from there? They don't go back and check the dog's eyes? So it boils down to trusting the breeder or trusting OFA, correct?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

mrsb28wolf said:


> So do you believe if they had been filed with OFA it would have been caught or that something was altered bc it wasn't filed with OFA?


Eye exams are falsified OFTEN. Because technically, the exam form itself is the clearance. 
It is caught if they are sent to OFA since OFA verifies them.

There are very few people here who have not seen altered exam forms but most of us go to dog shows, where clinics are held, and actually know the dogs who either get brought in as a ringer (because at a show clinic the whole process is streamlined which at some shows makes it easier to cheat- such as scanning them when they are dilated- then allowing 4-6 dogs to be dilated then come back when it's their turn, and never bringing the cataract dog back or whatever- he's just gotten scanned and dilated but another dog got the exam) or seeing someone tracing a signature, etc. 


It makes no sense to get an eye exam perfectly normal then go get another 3 months later and suddenly have moderate cataracts. 
And it makes no sense to not pay the $7.50 to have it verified and listed especially when that is a part of the Code of Ethics that is supposedly being upheld.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

mrsb28wolf said:


> Also, I'm confused, is OFA the only way to tell if a dogs eyes pass? Do they oversee the vet that does it? If a breeder has their eyes checked every year and has the papers to prove it, what does OFA do from there? They don't go back and check the dog's eyes? So it boils down to trusting the breeder or trusting OFA, correct?


The person who owns the dog or their agent takes the dog to the ophthalmologist. 
The ophthalmologist fills out a form on the eye exam which is quite specific and covers many eye issues, some of which are breeders options conditions and some which are no-breed conditions. 
A pet buyer would not know these conditions one from the other, especially since the B/O ones differ depending on breed. 
While the exam is taking place (in a perfect world- not how it happens at many clinics who scan as I described earlier) the dog's permanent ID is scanned. 
That number is put on the form too.
When the owner gets home they make a copy for their records, and mail the original to OFA. 

The ophthalmologist fills in a triplicate form. One copy goes to owner to mail to OFA, one goes to OFA (and that's from the eye doc so in theory isn't able to be altered at that point) and one stays w the eye doc.
When OFA gets their $7.50 they compare the form the owner sends in to the one the eye doc sends in. They are supposed to be submitted by the eye docs every 15 days. Once it is verified, a number is issued for the clearance.
SO- should the dog have what is a breeder's option in Goldens, that too is posted. Breeder's option (making this up) D3. 
If the dog has a condition that's not covered by the breeders option diagnosis codes, there is a panel that they send to for the weird stuff- like accidents, etc. Those ophthalmologist panel members decide if it is a breed-able condition and either issue a number or issue an abnormal results certificate and refund the $7.50


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I can't say but would have felt more confident had they been filed. I had a breeder with dogs from really good bloodlines. At some point she was probably a really good breeder & active with the breed.
She knew how to make a sale, very personable & knowledgeable on the phone and in emails... she knew all the appropriate answers. Gotcha day was another story and the adventure began.
Let's just say I have learned a great deal about the importance of OFA clearances. I also learned it's a good idea to google the breeders name and see what info comes up... 

Coming to this forum to learn and get information is a positive step in the learning process. You may not always like the answers but they aren't trying to sell you a puppy and will be truthful in sharing what they know.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Creekside English Goldens is also Cottage Garden Goldadors


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

puddles everywhere said:


> ...Let's just say I have learned a great deal about the importance of OFA clearances. I also learned it's a good idea to google the breeders name and see what info comes up...
> 
> Coming to this forum to learn and get information is a positive step in the learning process. You may not always like the answers but they aren't trying to sell you a puppy and will be truthful in sharing what they know.



Thank you for being so forthcoming with your story. It's not easy to make your hard knocks public. I always hope that when I share an experience it will educate someone and maybe make a difference in the long run. I guess that's all any of us can hope for, maybe someone will see it and avoid the heartache.


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## mrsb28wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

I appreciate everyone's input I am getting a quick thorough education. 

I am confused again though- Creekside lists the current OFA scores for eyes on their site for their dogs so I'm not sure why that's being discussed- am I missing something about this?


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## mrsb28wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

SheetsSM said:


> Creekside English Goldens is also Cottage Garden Goldadors


And again, I am new - is a Goldador looked down on among GR owners?


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

mrsb28wolf said:


> And again, I am new - is a Goldador looked down on among GR owners?


The GRCA frowns upon all crossbreeding. Here's an article about doodles that also translates to lab mixes https://www.grca.org/about-the-breed/articles/goldendoodles-grcas-position/


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Someone that cross breeds their goldens is breeding for an income and certainly not for the improvement of the breed. A reputable breeder will NEVER do this.
Eye exams were mentioned in an earlier post said the breeder didn't see the need to submit to OFA. We are trying to tell you that is an important step and a good breeder understand this.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Well, that's quite the pricetag on a mutt breeding, eh? 2200 for a 
Golden X Lab mixed breed. 
Hmm. 

No good breeder of any breed would ever ever mix it with another breed- unless they didn't care about the breed and just cared about the pocketbook. 
There are mixed breeds available in any dog pound. I cannot fathom creating them on purpose.


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## mrsb28wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

puddles everywhere said:


> Someone that cross breeds their goldens is breeding for an income and certainly not for the improvement of the breed. A reputable breeder will NEVER do this.
> Eye exams were mentioned in an earlier post said the breeder didn't see the need to submit to OFA. We are trying to tell you that is an important step and a good breeder understand this.


I should have looked it up when it was first mentioned- it is elbows and hips that she uses BVA for, her eye clearances are registered with OFA.


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## mrsb28wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

LJack said:


> I answered more fully on your other thread but just a note, no website is a 100% that the breeders there are reputable. Always do your due diligence and verify claims.
> 
> If she is doing eyes annually, does she have an explanation as to why she does not pay the $8-$12 to have them certified by OFA. At that price point it seems to me recording health certifications would be a reasonable expectation. The other up side is that the test would be verified as legitimate. I have seen eye exam forms faked and/or altered.


LJack, is there something I'm missing on her website- her eyes are listed on the website with OFA, it's the elbows and hips she has with BVA - I should have double checked before my first response, I was responding to her having them done with BVA.


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

mrsb28wolf said:


> LJack, is there something I'm missing on her website- her eyes are listed on the website with OFA, it's the elbows and hips she has with BVA - I should have double checked before my first response, I was responding to her having them done with BVA.


If you're looking at the Silk x Treasure litter, Silk's eye exam is out of date. Eye clearances must be done every year and her last clearance was August 2016. Treasure's eye clearance is also out of date, done around the same time as Silk's eye clearance.


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## mrsb28wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

aesthetic said:


> mrsb28wolf said:
> 
> 
> > LJack, is there something I'm missing on her website- her eyes are listed on the website with OFA, it's the elbows and hips she has with BVA - I should have double checked before my first response, I was responding to her having them done with BVA.
> ...


Yes we discussed this- the eye dr is 2+ hours away and she wasn't planning on taking Silk while pregnant due to stress (again they are holistic in nature). I was assuming she was taking the other dogs the end of this year but I'd have to double check as it is something she does regularly.


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## NicoleGold (Dec 8, 2015)

mrsb28wolf said:


> Yes we discussed this- the eye dr is 2+ hours away and she wasn't planning on taking Silk while pregnant due to stress (again they are holistic in nature). I was assuming she was taking the other dogs the end of this year but I'd have to double check as it is something she does regularly.


So what reasoning is she giving you for breeding golden x lab mixed breeds and charging a high price tag for mutts?


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

mrsb28wolf said:


> Yes we discussed this- the eye dr is 2+ hours away and she wasn't planning on taking Silk while pregnant due to stress (again they are holistic in nature). I was assuming she was taking the other dogs the end of this year but I'd have to double check as it is something she does regularly.


Why couldn't she get the eye clearance done before Silk went into heat? Why isn't she getting Treasure's done now? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think getting an eye clearance done is all that stressful. It just sounds like a bunch of excuses to me. There's a reason the GRCA recommends getting an eye clearance every 12 months. It's a hard pass from me.

NicoleGold also brings up a good point - what's her excuse for breeding golden/lab mixes?


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

mrsb28wolf said:


> ...I am confused again though- Creekside lists the current OFA scores for eyes on their site for their dogs so I'm not sure why that's being discussed- am I missing something about this?


What you're missing is that Golden Retrievers are at risk to have some inherited and extremely painful and debilitating eye diseases that can only be detected by an eye exam. If you don't get the exams, you can't know. Your dog can be in serious discomfort and pain and will eventually go blind. Some of the issues develop as the dog ages, this is why these exams are required EVERY single year. It is the ethical thing to do. This breeder has no eye exams listed on OFA prior to 2016, maybe 1 or 2. These are dogs she has been breeding over and over for years. It's a major red flag that she is not actually doing what she says she is doing. Part of the reason for the flag is that she has continued to get heart clearances from a regular vet and not a cardiologist as is required by the code of ethics. Looks like this breeder cuts corners at her convenience.

As for Golden people 'looking down on Goldadors' - we don't look down on dogs. They are dogs and didn't choose to be put on this earth, they are on this earth for our convenience. The issue I personally take is that I live in a state full of Labrador mixes in kill shelters who will never be adopted. And this woman is purposefully producing more of them and using a ridiculous marketing term to sucker people into spending large sums of money on them. She makes no mention of genetic testing on her breeding Labs for any of the inherited issues for Labradors. EIC (exercise induced collapse) among others is a real issue and her dogs aren't tested. 

She doesn't show her dogs or compete in any hobby or sport with them. Typically a hobby breeder breeds a litter to keep a puppy for herself or the sire of the litter to show and the rest are sold to pet or performance homes where they will be given a great life. The breeder spares no expense in health and genetic testing to make the best breeding choices for reduced odds that puppies produced will not have inherited health problems. Any money made off of puppies is used to help pay for the next generation of dogs' training and showing and health clearances and an emergency savings account. The purpose of showing in some way is to ensure that the dogs are high quality and especially to show that they have the correct temperament to reproduce. They have the traits that make a Golden a Golden. Most dogs are fine at home, they are in their comfort zone. It's getting them out in the world that will show weakness in dog aggression or fearfulness with strange people and situations. People who never take their dogs off of their property have no way of knowing if they are really breeding high quality Golden Retrievers. It's called "kennel blind." Paying thousands of dollars for a dog with spotty health clearances in the parents and grandparents, dogs who have never left the back yard is just being taken to the cleaners.

There is a market for carefully bred puppies with health clearances and good temperaments behind them. My problem is with people breeding dogs in volume as if they are livestock. When people use animals to make money for themselves, eventually it ends up being about the money in almost any case. Why doesn't this woman get the cardiologist heart clearances on her dogs? Because a practitioner clearance is cheaper. A cardiologist would be an expensive trip out of town. Cutting costs at the expense of the puppies she produces is not a sign of an excellent breeder. Raising multiple litters at a time is not devoting all the time, care and attention I would expect for a puppy I'm paying thousands of dollars for. If I'm spending that kind of money it's going to be with a breeder who would sooner poke out her own eye than take unnecessary risks breeding puppies without genetic information on the parents and grandparents. It's going to be with a breeder who raises puppies in the house so they're socialized and given individual attention and loved on a daily basis before the puppies go to the homes chosen for them. It's not going to be with a breeder who is using puppies to pay the mortgage.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Between the 2 kennel names, I count 13 girls & 2 boys--just how much personal time are these dogs getting? You can pay extra & have your puppy receive extra one on one time/"training" which means you're picking your puppy no later than 6 weeks of age. Those breeders who are active in the breed, are waiting until 7-8 weeks for temperament testing & any other evals depending on the purpose of the litter. I just can't fathom any breeder spending more time w/ puppies because they're receiving more $ and setting aside those puppies whose families didn't elect the extra training. The breeders of my pups were hands on w/ every puppy in the litter. 

When I read the "holistic" approach, responsible breeders do what this breeder is touting as something unique, though I guess if you're comparing yourself to other for profit breeders, perhaps it is something that sets them apart--but that's not the type of breeder I'm looking to support.

Just knowing the VA/MD/NC area & the wonderful breeders within, I can't fathom why this breeder is even receiving consideration--though the website is slick & I'm sure the marketing is on point, but when you add a little bit of education, that schtick crumbles.


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## mrsb28wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

SheetsSM said:


> Between the 2 kennel names, I count 13 girls & 2 boys--just how much personal time are these dogs getting? You can pay extra & have your puppy receive extra one on one time/"training" which means you're picking your puppy no later than 6 weeks of age. Those breeders who are active in the breed, are waiting until 7-8 weeks for temperament testing & any other evals depending on the purpose of the litter. I just can't fathom any breeder spending more time w/ puppies because they're receiving more $ and setting aside those puppies whose families didn't elect the extra training. The breeders of my pups were hands on w/ every puppy in the litter.
> 
> When I read the "holistic" approach, responsible breeders do what this breeder is touting as something unique, though I guess if you're comparing yourself to other for profit breeders, perhaps it is something that sets them apart--but that's not the type of breeder I'm looking to support.
> 
> Just knowing the VA/MD/NC area & the wonderful breeders within, I can't fathom why this breeder is even receiving consideration--though the website is slick & I'm sure the marketing is on point, but when you add a little bit of education, that schtick crumbles.


Who would you recommend in those areas? I've been following up with just about every recommendation I get from people on here or that I see within an 8 hour driving distance of Eastern PA- I'd love some suggestions for VA/MD/NC areas...


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## mrsb28wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

NicoleGold said:


> So what reasoning is she giving you for breeding golden x lab mixed breeds and charging a high price tag for mutts?


I had no idea about the other breeding prior to or during our conversation


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

This I figured has been said in other posts in other ways but, I'll put it out there point blank this is not a good breeder, this is a bad breeder. How am I coming to this conclusion, and what does my opinion matter? Well, because it is not really my opinion. 

In any endeavor or business there is a recognized expert group that determines what makes someone reputable/responsible. I can't just hang a sign saying Attorney for hire, if I have not been educated and passed the Bar, etc. There are laws or recognized groups that determine what it would take to become a reputable Attorney. The same is true for breeding. Each breed 's national club sets the expectations or standards that define the minimum for respoponsible breeding. Whether or not a person belongs to that club, their breeding decisions will be judged against that club's breeder standards. 

For Goldens that live in the USA this would be heart at or after 12 months by a cardiologist, Hips and Elbows done at or after 24 months and eyes done annually. It also calls for transparancy by having all those tests publicly verifiable on a trusted/protected database. It also recommends additional DNA testing when appropriate. This is the definition of minimum for responsible breeding in our country. It was created by the top minds in our breed which includes; Vetrinanians, long time influential breeders, competitors, judges, handlers, trainers and great dog men and women. This is where this breeder is failing badly. Of the 3 animals she is planning to breed, not one as even one of the core four tests up to the standard. Deficient practioner hearts, expired eyes and unverifiable hips and elbows that I very much suspect were done prior to 24 months. This is why she is a bad breeder, because she is failing so dismally at reaching the bare minimum of the definition in our country of a responsible breeder. 

If you want to create an alternate definition of responsible in your mind, that is up to you. If the "talk" of a breeder trying to get your money holds more sway than what breed experts define as necessary testing to give you the best chance for a healthy puppy, that is also up to you. All I really care about is that you have the information to make an informed decision. This breeder is seriously deficient in all the healthy certification areas and way overpriced. If you choose to buy from her you will know you are choosing to pay more for much less that you should be getting. Ultimately it is a choice only you can make. 

An aside from earlier, How eye certifications work...The AVCO does make notations/statements at the time of the exam on the form which is a carbon style form. One of those carbons is always submitted to OFA directly from the vet for use only in the OFA research role. If the form is marked both eyes normal than OFA will pass the dog. If any thing else is marked, even if the examining AVCO notated not suspected inherited the OFA may choose to fail the dog. Why should it be sent in? Because forms are altered and faked by unethical people all the time. If it is sent in to the OFA for recording with a small fee, OFA already has the research carbon from the vet and any alterations or discrepancies can be caught. We have several serious eye issues in the breed and they can show up at any stage of life, hence the need to test *before* breeding. The exam is not stressful. It is a simple dilation and viewing.

On hearts, I'll be real honest here. Practioner hearts on European bred dogs from imports in recent generations scare me. In Europe, testing hearts is not common though it is becoming more so. To me that makes Cardiogist hearts even more important. With SAS in the breed it is nearly negligent to go with practioner hearts. No one wants their young, healthy looking dog to drop dead with little to no warning.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Well, I thought I wrote a whole shebang on the eye exams- all I can figure is there are two threads (hate that) going on the same breeder...but I call BS on the 'stress' portion of your conversation w the "breeder". There's zero stress involved and it sounds like she's playing her instinct that you like 'holistic' so will accept an excuse that plays on that mindset. 
I HS'd my kids through 8th- I get it- but really if you look at most good breeders (not this breeder) you will realize that the less intrusive and more holistic things are being doing w puppies every day. Most breeders do the ENS stuff, the hands on stuff, the low-vaccine stuff. No one educated pumps their puppies full of vaccines at 5 weeks. You need to be educated on deworming though- it IS done by smart breeders due to the nature of the worm life cycle- there are no worm-free puppies and it is healthier to rid ones litter of parasites. 

It feels to me like you are wanting badly to go with this breeder no matter what we say (and you are getting opinions from lots of areas of the country and lots of differing experiences but we are basically all agreeing) so you have to decide if smooth talking and an available puppy is more important than real and verifiable health clearances and waiting on finding a safe bet. And you have to be the one who looks at the Lab X Golden breedings not so much as right or wrong, but as an indicator that this breeder is in it for the bucks, not the breed.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

For $3,500 she can load them all in a van and make the trip! I drove 5 hours (round trip) to get my girl's eyes checked and had her spayed because of the results. And I'm no breeder. Lame excuse.

Do what you want to do and hope it all goes well for you, sometimes it does. But take a few minutes to read through some of the post on puppies that bite excessively, destroy their houses, resource guard, hate kids or won't walk on a leash because they are fearful. See how many have had to hire behaviorist and private trainers. Read about all the health and parasite problems, coming home to find their puppy dead in the yard from SAS, tummy issues so many new owners have. None of these pups came from reputable breeders.

Love your puppy where ever you choose to get it from and remember you made an informed decision.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

Prism Goldens said:


> *It feels to me like you are wanting badly to go with this breeder no matter what we say* (and you are getting opinions from lots of areas of the country and lots of differing experiences but we are basically all agreeing) so you have to decide if smooth talking and an available puppy is more important that real and verifiable health clearances and waiting on finding a safe bet.


That's the feeling I've been getting all week as an observer of both threads that are going on with this poster about this breeder, and you put it into words what I couldn't quite say quite as eloquently.

It DOES feel like you are wanting badly to go with this breeder, but yet, it also somehow seems important to you to defend your decision and somehow get our approval on that choice by your defense of the breeder. 

So - go with this breeder if that's what you feel best for you and your situation. You don't need our approval and there's no need to defend her to us - she's not a breeder that "I" personally would choose (but then, I also much prefer the look of the more traditional, less marketing hyped, American style golden).


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

mrsb28wolf said:


> Who would you recommend in those areas? I've been following up with just about every recommendation I get from people on here or that I see within an 8 hour driving distance of Eastern PA- I'd love some suggestions for VA/MD/NC areas...


I am sorry I don't have any other recommendations. My breeder just retired. I know it can seem like you will never be able to get a well bred puppy but keep trying. I stumbled on to a mention about my breeder and was able to get a great puppy with all 4 clearances, raised in the home with lots of socialization and activities plus temperament testing and it fell right in my time frame. I'm not saying that to brag but to encourage you to hold out for the best. I have quoted your request to see if anyone has good recommendations.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

rabernet said:


> That's the feeling I've been getting all week as an observer of both threads that are going on with this poster about this breeder, and you put it into words what I couldn't quite say quite as eloquently.
> 
> It DOES feel like you are wanting badly to go with this breeder, but yet, it also somehow seems important to you to defend your decision and somehow get our approval on that choice by your defense of the breeder.
> 
> So - go with this breeder if that's what you feel best for you and your situation. You don't need our approval and there's no need to defend her to us -


In case you're wondering OP why I am getting this feeling, it is because you state what you're being told and then need an explanation for the stance taken here- which IS the stance of the experts- vs the stance of this breeder's statements. Like, does OFA determine a clearance on eyes or not. How do they govern this. Are mixed breeds frowned on. What's wrong w a practitioner clearance and how can you tell if it is one or not. That sort of thing. I'm not quoting you but my stating my memory's version of the questions. 
The reality is the breeder can tell you anything and as long as she says it in a sweet way you are going to want to believe her because she has available puppies. And you are going to love whatever pup you bring home, no question. But just realize the risk you are taking when you go with a P-VPI cardiac clearance- that one especially is so dangerous. 

Any breeder can claim holistic. What really happens in many cases of holistic claims is that means 'I don't spend the money to interfere w the parasite's reproduction in my puppies, because I have one neg fecal out of the litter' when in reality, a neg fecal means nothing and history and biology tells us that parasites live for neonates. It translates often as a hands off approach because of pack dynamics (which means fearful puppies later) and it translates as basically a do what I (with zero science background) want to do because it feels like it is cool. It is hard work to raise a litter well. It takes lots of time and energy and study. 
I loved what someone said earlier- a good breeder would sooner poke out her own eye before producing puppies with so little to go on. But that's what happens when the bottom line financially is more important than the breed.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Harborview is in Erie PA - Jennifer's dogs often are very blond, sandy color.
They are big boned and typically very correct. 
She has a long list I'd bet, and of course check all clearances no matter who is referring you- but sometimes more puppies are born than expected or last minute someone has a crisis come up and suddenly there is an available puppy. I think she may HS her granddaughter too so there may be another point of interest if it comes up. I would email her and just tell her what you want and see what happens.


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## mrsb28wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

Prism Goldens said:


> Harborview is in Erie PA - Jennifer's dogs often are very blond, sandy color.
> They are big boned and typically very correct.
> She has a long list I'd bet, and of course check all clearances no matter who is referring you- but sometimes more puppies are born than expected or last minute someone has a crisis come up and suddenly there is an available puppy. I think she may HS her granddaughter too so there may be another point of interest if it comes up. I would email her and just tell her what you want and see what happens.


I have been in contact with Jennifer, thank you. Many of the breeders that have been recommended in this forum are from 3-4 years ago, many do not have current litters, but Harborview is one that does.


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## mrsb28wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

Prism Goldens said:


> rabernet said:
> 
> 
> > That's the feeling I've been getting all week as an observer of both threads that are going on with this poster about this breeder, and you put it into words what I couldn't quite say quite as eloquently.
> ...


I do appreciate everyone's feedback as I have stated this is all new to me and I'm trying to quickly wade through all the waters of clearances, BVA, OFA, neutering, vaccines, diet, etc. I feel like I am in an ocean of information and trying to find what is important. 

I don't feel a forum is an adequate place to tell my whole perspective, but I am not one to just follow the FDC with people and children and all their mandates necessarily, so I am somewhat leary of a big dog ruling the roost for all breeders/puppies, etc. I believe there are many ways to live a healthy lifestyle, I'm sure that goes for dogs too. 

I do recognize the eyes/heart/elbows/ hips clearances are in place for a reason and many if not all of you want to spare the pool of Goldens from more harm and people from heartache. 

When I first started my search I was looking at size, temperament, cost, and distance as well as longevity in breeder/puppies. I had quite a list and not until I started doing more research on clearances did I realize my list was mostly moot. I am doing my best to make an informed decision with the information I have - both from clearances, conversations with the breeders, and info from well seasoned owners/breeders such as yourselves. 

I do like this breeder- we have much of the same heart and perspective. I am not trying to defend a decision but rather understand what I'm facing should I make it. I assume you are all coming from a place of having mine and the dog's best interest at heart. Understandably we are humans with different opinions and view points, and I'm thankful for those who have made it clear that they are here to help. I realize many of those viewpoints are strong ones bc of past experiences. 

I have not made a decision yet, I'm still researching and contacting different breeders. Sorry this got divided on two threads- again thank you to all who answered my questions. ?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

mrsb28wolf said:


> I assume you are all coming from a place of having mine and the dog's best interest at heart. Understandably we are humans with different opinions and view points, and I'm thankful for those who have made it clear that they are here to help.


The biggest piece is, whether an opinion comes from a once burnt/twice shy place or a place of years in the breed from a breeder perspective, or an educational perspective, the rules set out for safe breeding of Goldens are there because there are so many diseases and conditions that many people without a good working understanding of genetics are producing and we needed a guide to follow. Dogs aren't like humans- there aren't any rules per say set out by a FDA for dogs... pretty much anyone can do anything they want in their breeding program and no hammer is going to come down on them. PLUS when you realize that the language of dogs is one most puppy buyers are not fluent in there is even more room to do or say what you want. 
I'm going to send you a PM because the rest of what I was saying is probably not suited to an open forum...but suffice it to say- everyone here is here for a different reason (I came because I saw that there was a good deal of breeder bashing done years ago and I wanted to be a good breeder influence here) and we all are truly on YOUR side.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

mrsb28wolf said:


> I do appreciate everyone's feedback as I have stated this is all new to me and I'm trying to quickly wade through all the waters...I assume you are all coming from a place of having mine and the dog's best interest at heart. Understandably we are humans with different opinions and view points, and I'm thankful for those who have made it clear that they are here to help....


There is no one here with an agenda other than the best interests of the Goldens currently being produced and the long term future of the breed in general. We have different priorities and opinions on many things but the idea that breeders should represent themselves as 'code of ethics' type breeders yet be misrepresenting the truth, cutting corners and flat out lying are unacceptable to almost all of us. Especially when it's ultimately the affected puppy and that puppy's family who suffers. 

I have lost count of the number of people who have found this forum over the years I've been a member, looking for answers about why their seemingly healthy Golden Retriever died at their feet under the kitchen table while the family was eating dinner, or simply fell over in the yard, or like my uncle's beloved Lab died playing fetch one beautiful fall afternoon. These people are simply devastated. My uncle was so crushed he has chosen not to have another dog in his life. The majority of the time, the story points to SAS, the heart defect that those cardiac clearances are an effort to avoid. If a single one of these tragedies could have been avoided because a breeder spent the time and money to do proper heart clearances and then used the information to avoid breeding that dog, it would be worth it. Could you imagine eating dinner with your family and having your healthy 4 year old dog die under your kitchen table? I can't. But it happened. That story alone causes me to be outraged that a human being would choose to breed dogs and not make an honest attempt to weed out that inherited defect. NO breeder is God. There will still be sick and defective dogs living painful lives in spite of our best efforts. But how a person can look at themselves in the mirror day in and day out, and not make every effort humanly possible to make a difference is beyond me.

That sweet woman who you think has such a wonderful heart may say she loves dogs but her selfish and shortsighted behavior in being aware of the need for heart clearances and not doing them properly yet representing them to her puppy buyers as having the proper clearance is despicable. Her behavior is despicable. 

I am utterly mystified that you clearly care enough about health that you make the effort to learn and live a holistic lifestyle. But you would support a woman who claims to care so much about her dogs health she feeds them organic free range chicken yet won't get the eye exams to ensure that none of them are suffering painful eye disease and possibly passing it on to their offspring. She claims to care so much about health that she follows Dr. Dodd's vaccination protocol for her puppies (there is nothing unique about this, MANY Golden breeders follow Dr. Dodd and use her as a valuable resource) but she won't do the minimal proper health clearances to avoid breeding a dog that might pass on a preventable heart defect to those same puppies. She is so worried about chemicals she won't treat her dogs for parasites but she won't be transparent about elbow clearances - never bothered with them in the past. Elbow dysplasia is painful and crippling for a dog. It costs $3,000 per joint for repair surgery. It is highly inherited, two parents with good elbows have a 40% lower chance of producing a puppy with an affected elbow than two parents with the problem do. It is clearly spelled out on the OFA website how valuable those elbow exams are at preventing this defect. It's absolutely mind boggling that this woman who is so committed to a healthy and organic life for those dogs she loves is so haphazard with all the other aspects that are PROVEN to improve the chances of the puppies she breeds in such high volume. 

The Golden Retriever community is fairly small and well connected. The internet may have a lot of cons but the pros are that information is easily shared and people learn from each other. I would say that the vast majority of committed Golden Retriever breeders who show their dogs in conformation or in performance events like agility, field and obedience are extremely well informed about the benefits of integrative veterinary medicine and a holistic approach to nutrition and wellness care for their dogs. There are entire websites of Golden Retriever nerds who share this information with each other. The breeders of both my Collie and my Golden are a wealth of information on holistic nutrition and health care for dogs. Finding a breeder who does health clearances AND raises puppies with an integrative approach combining the best of all approaches is not difficult if that is truly your wish. Yes, you will have to wait on a waiting list for a well bred puppy. Good breeders are not like Walmart where they mass produce so many that you write a check and then pick it up. Doing anything the right way takes time and effort and you have mentioned multiple times that you are trying to 'quickly wade through' an enormous amount of information. There is simply no way that anyone can learn all there is to consider in choosing a good breeder in a short amount of time. Finding educated and experienced people who you trust to assist is essential to the process. I can't believe you haven't asked yourself why this one woman isn't a member of a single Golden Retriever group. If she is so passionate about the breed, why doesn't she show her dogs for fun? She makes multiple mention on her website about 'retrieving instinct' and mentions AKC hunt tests - but not one of her dogs has a Working Certificate or so much as an AKC Junior Hunter title. These are two titles that say a lot about Goldens. Are they biddable and easily trained? Do they have the minimal retrieving instinct. They are tests that a Golden with some instinct and some basic obedience training should be able to pass standing on it's head. If she is such a believer, why aren't any of her dogs earning these titles? If she believes in getting back to basics, preserving the breed, why not do these basic things? I think she is snowing you.


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