# Building a Field Golden (Part VI)



## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Its been awhile since our last entry. Some things just take time.

Since our last thread we have had to wait for a couple of things. The first is age and maturity. Up until now, Rooster has been such a little boy. He loves the kids and loves to play. Lately I have seen a few little changes. He seems to hold himself a little different. He just seems to be growing up a little.

Rooster finally finished replacing all of his teeth. I looked through my records and found that he was behind his mama and yet ahead of several other dogs in tooth replacement. His siblings were mostly behind his schedule.

Since Part V, we have continued to do simple field marks as we can. He now is running out to about 100 yards in light cover, however I try to keep the marks in the 80 yard range for success. We have also continued to passively teach obedience. His obedience timeline is not as fast a Shannon would like...._ sorry Hun but they dont come out of the womb knowing "stay."_

We are now moving on. We are preparing for Force Fetch by starting Roosters collar conditioning. It's rather convenient that I am following Evan Graham's _*Smartwork*_ series since he regularly posts here! Again, I am not here to sell anyone's books or tapes. I just want to give credit where credit is due. Presently we are in Smartworks Volume I. Please refer to this for the complete instruction on this process.

I started this process by strapping an inactivated e-collar onto Rooster anytime we trained. The dummy I have is OLD. It weighs a ton and I thought Rooster would balk in some way, shape, or form. However he seemed to wear it with pride! Apparently he thought he was a big dog and just went about his business.

After a few days of wearing the collar, we started the process. Now we put on a different and activated collar. Currently I am using a Tri-tronics Flyway G2. As I was out and about on walks with him, I would call him with "HERE." At the same time I would use a the collar with a low level of continuous stimulation. As he ran to me, the stimulation was turned off and praise was applied.

Now we are using "rope pressure." I have attached a rather long lead to Rooster. The lead is approximately 30 feet long. We walk out to a smooth pole and the lead is brought around the backside. I can now hold little Rooster at that location by holding the lead and backing away. Rooster sits there and cannot come to me because I am holding the lead preventing him from doing so. I then call "HERE" and apply low levels of stimulation as I turn the lead loose. I then turn the stimulation off as Rooster runs to me. Rooster then begins to learn to turn the e-pressure off by complying with my commands. As Rooster gets to me I apply all the praise that I can muster for his success. 

That is it in a nutshell. Again, I am not trying to steal Evan's intellectual material, so refer to his stuff for all the details. We will continue with this for a few days and then we will move to the next step.

*****
ed's note.
I understand the apprehensiveness to using an e-collar. I think the name itself contrives images of our golden loved ones strapped into an electric chair. I have learned that this is not the case at all.

I trained Daisy through the "Amish" method or as some others put it, the "tennis shoe" method. My wife and I just couldn't fathom putting an e-collar on to such a sweet dog. To this day, Daisy has not had an activated e-collar on her. _Side note: After watching Amber train, Daisy actually seemed to want one. Sometimes we now put an inactivated collar on her to make her happy. How funny._ We trained and trained and trained. When she made mistakes or "flipped us the paw" we had little recourse but to run out (aka by the tennis shoe method) and try to get her attention. I found that often Daisy would be so flabberghasted by the sight of such an idiot racing out and screaming that what-ever correction was applied was often lost before it was ever applied. I have now come to the conclusion that *the correct use of the modern e-collar is far and away more humane than any other method*. The key here is "correct use."


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Randall,

So, your pup is about 6 months old now? Study the principles of force fetch before starting the process, of course. But if you don't have the SmartFetch DVD, it would be worth considering. I was able to get quite a bit of detail into it, and the more important part is learning to read your dog's reactions to even small amounts of pressure.

As you know, I teach flexibility in the application of pressure, especially during this process. Reading small changes in the dog's expression can really help with this, and keep it from being needlessly unpleasant.

I also extends the process through force to pile, forcing on larger bumpers, artificial game birds, and ultimately to forcing on real birds. Progressing toward handling skills following this is really easy, and the dog's come out of this course with a good attitude.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I just love reading your posts. Tito and I live vicariously thru you and Rooster!
I'm surprised he's got all his adult teeth already, or do you exclude the big molars from that? Seems to me they don't get the big molars until about 10 months old?
One question...do you stop the stimulation as soon as the dog begins to comply? Like as soon as he gets up and starts toward you?
Thanks!




Klamath Gold said:


> Rooster finally finished replacing all of his teeth. I looked through my records and found that he was behind his mama and yet ahead of several other dogs in tooth replacement. His siblings were mostly behind his schedule.
> 
> 
> After a few days of wearing the collar, we started the process. Now we put on a different and activated collar. Currently I am using a Tri-tronics Flyway G2. As I was out and about on walks with him, I would call him with "HERE." At the same time I would use a the collar with a low level of continuous stimulation. As he ran to me, the stimulation was turned off and praise was applied.
> ...


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Clarifiers:
*Force Fetch has not been started yet.

*The process with the e-collar now is part of a conditioning process to get him ready for FF and Collar Conditioning there-after.

*Rooster is not quite 6 months (now a week shy).

________________________________________

Other stuff for fun.
Goldens did wonderfully at Field Trials all across the west this last weekend. Goldens placed high in at least three separate field trials. Goldens won or placed in all divisions (derby's, Quals, and All-Age). A dog by the name of Keeper won the Amateur stake in California!

In separate news, Amber just came into heat. It's her first cycle since the Rooster was born. Rooster is apparently clueless. Even so, we are keeping them separated as a precautionary measure. Amber will not be bred this cycle. We are looking at the next cycle (7 months or so) but havent fully made a decision yet.

I now co-own a little lab puppy. A member of our training group wanted to start a little project dog and asked if I would be interested. The pup will be kenneled at his house and we will train the dog together. This should be fun and I am looking forward to it.

Hope all is well!


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## Uplander (Jan 5, 2009)

*Have you considered using a clicker to “mark” good behavior as well as the e-collar for non-conformance? *

*For example: the dog has been conditioned to walk at heel using the clicker and treat approach but once he’s about 70-80% reliable (w/ few or no distractions) I put him on a 30 ft. lead w/ his e-collar (which he’s been wearing for weeks-turned off).*

*I let him get to the end of the lead, activate the e-collar and pull the rope saying “heel”. As soon as he’s facing me, I release the transmitter and just make sure he comes all the way in to my side where he earns the “click/treat”. *

*I find that by creating this huge divide between the e-collar when he’s away from me and the click/treat when he’s at my side, it makes my dogs very eager to comply w/ my “heel” command. I also think that dogs can develop resentment about being jerked around by a lead and come to associate the unpleasantness w/ the proximity to my side. Remember, dogs are very place oriented. If a dog forges ahead when he’s supposed to be heeling, I take a step or 2 backwards before I nick w/ the collar in order to make a greater distinction between where he is and where he should be.*
*The clicker approach combined w/ appropriate collar conditioning tends to create a very good attitude in the dogs I’ve tried it on (a grand total so far of 2). *

*I worked at a master retriever test this weekend and was struck once again by how many dogs struggled w/ line manners before the first shot was fired. The majority of trainers I know use choke/prong collars, heeling sticks, and e-collars to try to enforce “heel” but w/ a highly “birdy” dog, the behavior breaks down as soon as the dog realizes you can’t enforce it at a test/trial. Using a positive approach to “heel”, the dog thought process is different and he begins to try hard to earn a click/treat. As his training progresses, he will learn that this behavior is what earns a retrieve. The difference between running a dog who is lunging and creeping at each thrown bird and running a dog who is consciously trying to heel because he thinks that’s how he earns a retrieve is enlightening.*


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Uplander said:


> *Have you considered using a clicker to “mark” good behavior as well as the e-collar for non-conformance?*


No I don't use a clicker. I use copius amounts of praise early in the process tapering off to a "good boy" at the end.

Oops I didnt get the rest of the quote in that I should have. Uplander stated *"I also think that dogs can develop resentment about being jerked around by a lead and come to associate the unpleasantness w/ the proximity to my side."*

Thanks for the comment and the opportunity to clarify. Remember that basic obedience has already been passively taught. Rooster understands "Here" and "Sit." However no standards have been set. In the process that I have used to this point, the dog has not been jerked around or even pulled to my side with the lead. The lead itself is wrapped around a smooth pole and is held to prevent the dog from being at the side. The low level stimulus is applied and the dog is released as he his called "HERE." The low-level stimulus is continued as he is en-route and turned off prior to reaching the handlers side. The dog comes to associate being in proximity of the handler as good. The "unpleasantness" therefore is associated with being away from the handler.

*******
editor's note: _My "blogging" of Roosters training is not intended to serve as a training program. It's only purpose is to furhter interest in training for the field sports. Please refer to more "reputable" sources as a guide for actual training:wavey:._


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## Uplander (Jan 5, 2009)

Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply you were doing anything wrong. I just wanted to share how much I’m enjoying the results of my experimentation w/ using both a clicker and the e-collar. All the clicker trainers I’ve read go into great detail on learning theories but generally give a rather vague caution against introducing any negative feedback or “positive punishment” as they refer to it. The retriever trainers I associate with tend to dismiss the use of the clicker as a gimmick promoted by “Positive Only” trainers who have yet to succeed in the upper levels of hunt tests, let alone field trials.

In an earlier post you mentioned your realization that the e-collar correction was actually less stressful on your dog than running out and making a physical correction. I agree completely. I also believe that by the time your dog sees you running at him he’s completely forgotten about what ever it was that he did wrong. Hence, the e-collar has the huge advantages of precise timing and non-emotional punishment.

The clicker has similar advantages in providing non-emotional positive feedback at a precise instant. By gradually increasing the standard of performance for “heel”, I could actually see the gears turning in my pups head as he adjusted his position trying to earn the click/treat. When I began heeling in ever smaller figure 8s to teach him to back up at “heel” and move ahead at “here”, the ability to “click” at the precise time he made the correct adjustment made him work very hard and with a great attitude to understand exactly what to do to earn the reward. 

I think this early conditioning to the concept that his own (correct) behavior earns him something he wants (in the beginning, a click/treat and as training progresses, a retrieve) builds a work ethic and attitude that I really enjoy.


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Uplander said:


> Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply you were doing anything wrong.


The trouble with e-mail, blogs, and instant messages is that eye to eye communication is left out. Sometimes this leads to misunderstandings.

In this case, I have absolutely taken no offense. I also didn't infer that you were saying I was doing anything wrong. I hope that you did not read anything into my post either. Nothing was intended. I hope all is good.

I am hoping for good dialogue on the issues related to training. Lots of folks think that the field folks are just heavy handed meanies. Part of my reasoning for posting Rooster's progress is to hopefully dispel that myth. Please keep the dialogue going. Please continue to offer your thoughts.

Randy


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I love these posts. I know nothing at all about field work, and it's interesting and really makes me want to give it a try. Keep the posts coming!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Klamath Gold said:


> I am hoping for good dialogue on the issues related to training. Lots of folks think that the field folks are just *heavy handed* meanies. Part of my reasoning for posting Rooster's progress is to hopefully dispel that myth. Please keep the dialogue going. Please continue to offer your thoughts.
> 
> Randy


Anyone with those misgivings needs to see a well trained retriever performing fieldwork. Tail and ears up, stylish and having fun!

EvanG


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

EvanG said:


> Anyone with those misgivings needs to see a well trained retriever performing fieldwork. Tail and ears up, stylish and having fun!
> 
> EvanG


All my dogs are house dogs. It's so funny when I grab my set of whistles that are hanging on a hook. No matter where they are at, that little jingle brings all three running. Lord help me if I should happen to put on a white jacket too. The dogs are just dancing and prancing around waiting to be let out of the house and loaded on the truck. Yes they are happy dogs and yes they love their work!

Cheers!


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

EvanG said:


> Anyone with those misgivings needs to see a well trained retriever performing fieldwork. Tail and ears up, stylish and having fun!
> 
> EvanG


I agree. I have never seen a dog that didn't seem to love what they are doing, but I have only been playing the field games for a little over 10 years, so I missed the "before-Rex" period. That is not to say that you won't see (and I haven't had) a dog that will get distracted at a test and chase butterflies or visit gunners to say hello.

They all seem happy and very focused. In fact, one of the happiest moments when I was training my pup before we sent him off was when I was bringing him to the line and I noticed him looking out in the field for the guns as he came up and sat down and locked on those white shirts on my wingers. I love the look of a focused dog on the line.


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