# Max just won't listen to ME!



## lovealways_jami (Apr 17, 2007)

I used to have this same problem. I dont know what the answer is.


----------



## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

lovealways_jami said:


> I used to have this same problem. I dont know what the answer is.


I know, I just read your post about the whole chewing thing last week. Ugh, it's SO frustrating! I just don't get it.


----------



## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

CrystalG said:


> It's kind of funny because if my husband walks in the door when Max and I are in the middle of this, Max just stops what he is doing, puts his head down, tail between his legs and that's the end of it. My husband doesn't even have to SAY anything:doh:! It doesn't make sense since I'm the one who does everything for Max. All my husband does with him is fool around and play!


This would concern me. These appeasement behaviors indicate that the dog does now know how to appropriate interact and solicit attention from the person. This does not indicate a well behaved dog.

Have you and your husband taken Max through a basic training class? Did the instructor address some of these non compliance issues?

How much training have you done with Max?

There are three reasons for non compliance:
1: The learner does not understand
2: The learner is not physically or mentally capable of the task
3: The learner is insufficiently motivated.

It sounds like Max really doesn't understand. I would recommend finding a basic training class that meets the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior guidelines:

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonl...sition_Statements/how to choose a trainer.pdf

Once Max knows how to appropriately get your attention and how to respond to you cues, and once you know how to teach him to respond and how to respond when he does things correctly or incorrectly, things will go much better!


----------



## janine (Aug 8, 2009)

Max is 9 months old....he is a teenager  Keep training....


----------



## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I would find a class and take him yourself to it. For the basics around the house, if you don't know how to follow through with a command, then don't give it. So if you're calling him to 'come' and he doesn't, then go and get him. Just like a teenage human, pick your battles but if you ask him to do something you'll have to follow through to get him to do so. If you are consistant and fair, he'll start to figure out he has to listen to you.

I have the same issue here though, my OH doesn't follow through with anything and the dogs totally know it. I can get them doing tricks and so on before I toss the ball, they just roll their eyes if he asks them to do something, and of course he throws the ball anyway...

Lana


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

The answer is a training class. Your dog has learned that your commands are optional and unrewarding. The answer is not to toughen up or use a manly voice, but rather to teach your dog how to respond to you and to develop the habits you want to be able to rely on.

The first thing you need to do is STOP saying things that aren't going to be obeyed. Each time you say "sit" and he doesn't, you're ingraining a habit in him that "sit" doesn't actually mean to put his butt on the floor. It's just a noise you make that doesn't mean anything.

The second thing you need to do is resist the urge to "punish" him. In your shoes, I'd have an urge to force compliance, and that's not the healthiest, most productive tactic to take.

The third thing you need to do is to learn how to guide him through a behavior and reward him for his compliance. You're not teaching him to work for the reward or bribing good behavior, but rather making compliance feel good so you can develop a habit that will work in all situations.

For that third step, you really need to get yourself into a training class. A 9-month-old dog can be a really teenager, but investing heavily in regular training sessions can have a massive lifetime payoff, even if progress feels slow. You need a class because it can teach you new techniques each week that you can practice every day with your dog. 

Right now, you don't know how to teach him in a way he can understand, so you need to go learn. The onus is on you. He's not a bad dog or a dumb dog. You're a trainer who doesn't know the techniques you need to communicate well with him. There's nothing wrong with that; the only thing wrong is if you never learn and your dog is constantly confused and "in trouble."


----------



## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

Thank you all for your responses.

We have never had Max in any kind of training/obedience class. We had every intention on doing this, however, my husband works seasonal and then my hours got cut back at work and then I got laid off. Financial we just don't have the funds to take him to a training class right now. Is there any online sites or other ways I could learn these techniques? What about books? Clicker training? Thanks


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

CrystalG said:


> Thank you all for your responses.
> 
> We have never had Max in any kind of training/obedience class. We had every intention on doing this, however, my husband works seasonal and then my hours got cut back at work and then I got laid off. Financial we just don't have the funds to take him to a training class right now. Is there any online sites or other ways I could learn these techniques? What about books? Clicker training? Thanks


A book on clicker training would probably point you in the right direction. It's too bad you can't take a class, though. A certified trainer can really help you with your timing and technique.

I don't know any good clicker books, but I'm sure somebody can recommend one.


----------



## dmsl (Jun 7, 2009)

check out clickertraining.com it was in the paperwork we got when we took basic class at petco. 

good luck!


----------



## mullietucksmom (Mar 22, 2009)

I see 9 months... Auh yes those teenages months... "You want me to do what???" Keep at it, Max will come out of it soon... 
Skye was very good at butting heads with me... then one day I called her in..and in she came without the promise of a treat...


----------



## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

There was a recent thread about a 7 day intro to clicker training course. Here's the info:

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=57842

The same team also has an e-book you can order/download on that site. I haven't read it personally, but it seems to come very highly recommended. I did sign up for the 7 day course to see what it was all about... it's a nice introduction to the concept. 

For books I have read:
1. Getting Started: Clicker Training for Dogs by Karen Pryor- Another good intro... and a quick read. I can't find it right now, but if i remember correctly there are directions for a few sample behaviors in the book. One of the great... and sometimes frustrating... things about books on clicker training is that they rarely give you step-by-step instructions for training. They're far more likely to introduce the concept, make a few suggestions, and send you on your way to experiment. It is primarily in the doing that you learn.

2. Reaching the Animal Mind by Karen Pryor - A much more involved book. Definitely not the first one you want to buy... but if you do decide to stick with clicker training, it is a wonderful (if sometimes slow) look at how and why clicker training works... with dogs and all sorts of other animals.

3. Click for Joy - A book of frequently asked questions collected from the clickersolutions email list. Great for clearing up some common misconceptions and avoiding some common mistakes with clicker training.

4. Clicker Training: The Perfect Foundation - Okay, this one I haven't read... it's new... but it looks great and it's by Kay Laurence. 

Hopefully that's enough to get you started. I'm fairly sure that most of these books can only be ordered online, but you can always check the local bookstores first. If nothing else, you can use the 7 day course to keep you busy while you wait for them to show up. Good luck, happy clicking, and be sure to keep us updated.

Julie and Jersey


----------



## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

What I find interesting here is that's it's not unusual to hear this state of affairs where the dog will do what it's asked by one person and ignore the other person. So it's not like the dog doesn't understand the command but rather doesn't feel the need to do it for this person. 

And in these situations it seems like the dog chooses to obey the person with the firm / stern voice. You frequently hear as posted by OP "I'm being very firm, using a 'manly' voice." but he still doesn't listen to me.

I wonder why that is? Does the dog feel threatened by the person with stern voice and thus complies?

Perhaps I could ask the OP what do you see as the difference in approach and results other than the stern voice between you and your husband?


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FeatherRiverSam said:


> What I find interesting here is that's it's not unusual to hear this state of affairs where the dog will do what it's asked by one person and ignore the other person. So it's not like the dog doesn't understand the command but rather doesn't feel the need to do it for this person.


I've seen this a bunch of times, and I do think it's motivational in some cases (i.e., the dog "knows," but doesn't obey because he's not motivated to do so).

Dogs are so context-sensitive, though, that sometimes I don't think it's just motivation, but it's actually a lack of understanding. "Sit" is a very different sound when it comes from another person. The dog doesn't recognize the word, but rather all the sounds, smells, body language, and other context-clues that come from the person giving the command.

It's easier for a dog to learn sit from a second person once the first has taught it, but not automatic. So if he learned it from one person, but the other is being some combination of unclear and unmotivating, he may never learn that "sit" from the other person still means to put the butt on the ground.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Dogs are so context-sensitive, though, that sometimes I don't think it's just motivation, but it's actually a lack of understanding.

I have also heard/read that dogs do not always generalize well. Just because they are understanding one person or a command in one spot doesn't always mean that they have full understanding of that command with everyone or everywhere.

I have also learned that a lot of dogs learning is by association. Many trainers will suggest that you start out with hand signals (clear and precise and all working with the dog using the exact same) when teaching a command and after the dog knows the command with the hand signal to then add the word with the hand signal for an extended amount of repetitions. Eventually being able to use one or the other (not having to use both) when requesting the behavior.

On the subject of the clicker. Here is a link that has a ton of articles on the clicker.
http://www.clickersolutions.com/ http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm


It is really important if you want Max to listen to you that you train him, I think you should have at least 2 formal training sessions a day, starting out inside the home, quietly with no distractions. Work on one or two things at a time keep the training sessions very short (to start) such as 2 or 3 minutes. Once he has the command down 100% in that spot move to another room again without any distractions and repeat the lesson there for a few days to a week. Again move to another room or to the backyard and do it there. These are very slow steps but since dogs don't always generalize you are helping with that along with getting the commands solid. Once Max is 100% in a few places in the house and the backyard you can add in distractions. If at anytime with the distractions he doesn't obey you know you went to far and have to move back at least one step in the process of training and work at that level again for a few days. As you progress you can add more time to the training sessions. Instead of 2 to 3 minutes make it 5 minutes. 
I would start back at the very beginning with Max and start him learning to look at you. When he looks at you either say yes (the marker that he did good) then reward or when he looks at you click (the marker that he did good) then reward. Then start saying his name when he looks at you say yes or click and then reward. This makes Max think good things happen when he looks at you or you say his name and he will want to look and watch you more. Then you will have a dog that wants to focus on you and this may make it easier to do any other commands. Also lots of repetition with sit and then down. You have to be consistent and Max really needs your total focus during the actual training. No stopping for phone calls/ no stopping to chase the toddler etc. Your total focus on him during training time. As time goes on your toddler can be part of the distractions for behaviors he already has solid without distractions but for any new behavior it can only be you and him. Since the training sessions are only a few minutes long you can do them when the little one is napping and in bed for the night to have the two sessions. If you little one doesn't nap then I would enlist someone to engage your child during the one session or do it before you get the little one up in the morning. Besides being motivated to do it for Max you have to do it for you. Max will be with your family for hopefully 14 years. You don't need to feel nuts/frustrated and stressed for 14 years.

You can do it. Take your time set up a plan of when the best time each day will be and what basics you will train and for how long. As you continue your training you can re-evaluate your schedule (does Max need more time working the sit in the living room? no then good we move on to the dining room/backyard etc.

Don't be discouraged Crystal I think we have all been there at one point or another and sometimes even the best of trainers have to step back and revisit things they thought were solid and start at what they would think was a basic point.

It is easier if you can go to a class as then you have a mentor to help you and to critique you, giving you pointers and being at the school with the distractions test you to show up Max and your weaknesses to work on but the basic work is done daily at home and then later out in the real world so you can do it.

No question is to simple someone here will be able to answer it for you so you do have a great support system in GRF.


----------



## Harley&Em (Apr 24, 2010)

Hey ok so Harley is the first GR I have owned I have been round dogs but never had to be the pack leader that was my Mums job. However I have picked up a few tips over the past 29 years of being around dogs. 

Sounds to me like your puppy dosent see you as the pack leader, below is a link to a website where I down loaded a ebook and I have found it really really helpful. Things like your dog is in human terms a baby and you wouldnt shout at your baby because it wouldnt sit first time, you would simply keep showing until baby got it right and in a calm manner... She talks a lot about tone of voice... I actually got about 5ish books for the price of one and so glad I brought it, its from an American lady to 

Just read that and I sound like an add lol... sorry :doh:

http://www.goldenretrieversavvy.com/


----------



## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

Jersey's Mom said:


> There was a recent thread about a 7 day intro to clicker training course. Here's the info:
> 
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=57842
> 
> ...


Thanks. I actually joined that 7 day course over the weekend. I'm only on the 4th lesson, but it seems to be going quite well. Also, thanks for the info on the books, I'll be checking out what they have:


----------



## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

Harley&Em said:


> Hey ok so Harley is the first GR I have owned I have been round dogs but never had to be the pack leader that was my Mums job. However I have picked up a few tips over the past 29 years of being around dogs.
> 
> Sounds to me like your puppy dosent see you as the pack leader, below is a link to a website where I down loaded a ebook and I have found it really really helpful. Things like your dog is in human terms a baby and you wouldnt shout at your baby because it wouldnt sit first time, you would simply keep showing until baby got it right and in a calm manner... She talks a lot about tone of voice... I actually got about 5ish books for the price of one and so glad I brought it, its from an American lady to
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link, I'm going to check it out. This is my story too, I've been around dogs all my life but my grandmother/grandfather was always the pack leader. Max is my first dog and my first GR.


----------

