# Vicious Golden?



## HoundSnout

My 13-month old male golden has been biting and bruising my wife for the last 8 months. Until 3 months ago, he still took direction from me and saw me as Alpha. Then one day, I put him into the car and he went into a vicious tirade and put a "kill bite" (as opposed to the usual Golden "soft bite") on my arm. He began snapping at small neighbor children 6 months ago. Then a few weeks ago, he tried to maul my adult son, jumping frantically at his arms and face, snapping his jaws, rapidly twisting his body and leaving strings of bubbly saliva everywhere. He has taken to tearing into me like this now, and rarely follows my direction. We have been working with a behaviorist/trainer, but he's actually becoming more vicisous. His last bite at me came through my glove and broke skin. Today at the dog park, a senior golden came up to sniff, and my dog jumped him and mauled him, biting his ear. He was ferocious, deep, loud growling with jaws continually snapping, foaming mouth, etc. He also got on top of the old dog, wrapped his legs around the dog's body and continually snapped into his neck and ears with strong bites. There seems to be a switch in his head that flips, and he turns into a dangerous monster. I have never witnessed a more vicious dog in my 50+ years, and I am moving in my mind towards either putting him in a no-kill shelter, giving him back to the breeder (who says that if he cant be placed, then she'll put him down) or even something more ultimate. It's just not fair and ethical to the people who live around us or the other dogs he meets. I am really torn about this, and am wondering if anybody else has seen this type of extreme behavior. If you have anything to share, I'm all ears.


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## hotel4dogs

A couple of questions...is he neutered? Has he been checked thoroughly by a vet? And why would you take him to the dog park, knowing he has those tendencies?


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## SeaMonster

That is strange! is he getting regular heavy exercise?


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## GoldenCamper

Get a full workup done by a vet and don't forget to check the thyroid.

Behavioral changes associated with thyroid dysfunction in dogs.


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## Jige

Stop taking him to the dog park it isnt fair to the other dogs and since you know you can not trust him you need to keep others safe. I second or third taking him to a vet for a full check up. 

I have dealt with pit bulls for a number of years and keeping that in mind I would never ever recommend a no kill shelter. If I have a dog I cannot handle I would not pass that on too some one else. If you can not deal with him and the breeder doesnt want him back ( not sure if they would take him back) I would put him down.


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## Megora

> My 13-month old male golden has been biting and bruising my wife for the last 8 months. Until 3 months ago, he still took direction from me and saw me as Alpha.


About here, I'm somewhat thinking that this sounds like you had a really mouthy adolescent golden. The mention of "alpha" concerns me, because sometimes people who use that term may be using training macho styles which can backfire on them.



> Then one day, I put him into the car and he went into a vicious tirade and put a "kill bite" (as opposed to the usual Golden "soft bite") on my arm. He began snapping at small neighbor children 6 months ago. Then a few weeks ago, he tried to maul my adult son, jumping frantically at his arms and face, snapping his jaws, rapidly twisting his body and leaving strings of bubbly saliva everywhere. He has taken to tearing into me like this now, and rarely follows my direction.


How much freedom do you give him? Is he outside all the time - the only dog I know of who went nuts like this was left outside where he was exposed to a lot of "threats" from neighborhood kids teasing him and overall he became VERY territorial. The owners still kept him outside despite knowing the kids were teasing him, and he wound up ripping a kid's face off. 

How many people are training him. Have you backed up to using "prevention" methods? Never take things from his mouth. Dog is on leash around those who cause him to snap. You and other family members sort out what makes him snap or what his warning signs are. 



> We have been working with a behaviorist/trainer, but he's actually becoming more vicisous. His last bite at me came through my glove and broke skin.


What are the methods that this behaviorist is recommending? Have you approached this medically? There are meds that could help calm him down. Is this behaviorist working with you and your family to ensure (again) that this dog is not provoked or put in the position where he feels defensive. 

If he's getting worse, you need to evaluate the methods you are using - particularly if you are still putting him in the position where he feels defensive or fearful.



> Today at the dog park, a senior golden came up to sniff, and my dog jumped him and mauled him, biting his ear. He was ferocious, deep, loud growling with jaws continually snapping, foaming mouth, etc. He also got on top of the old dog, wrapped his legs around the dog's body and continually snapped into his neck and ears with strong bites.


Dog parks are an ABSOLUTE NO for aggressive dogs. And it does sound like you have an aggressive golden. It's just like taking your dog offleash anywhere around other people and dogs. Or leaving your dog outside in the backyard where the kids can antagonize him. These things aren't helpful when you are working with a dog who has apparent triggers.


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## Claire's Friend

There is a condition called "Sudden Rage" I would look into. I am so sorry you are in this situation. I agree with the others , he needs to be checked out by his vet. If no medical condition can be found, I think he needs to be put down. Let the breeder do it if is too hard for you. This is NOT normal Golden behavior. Again, I am so sorry.


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## MikaTallulah

How long have you been working with the trainer/ behaviorist? If he is getting worse I would find a new one. Maybe someone here can give you a recommendation. How did you find this trainer? Ad? Word of mouth? Recommendations? What is this person's actual edu and background? Aggressive dogs are totally different from frustrated house pets.

I hope you find the help you both need.


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## Rainheart

Please please do not take your dog to a dog park; he is aggressive and that is a dangerous situation for everyone. I don't have any advice, except find a licensed veterinary behaviorist if you haven't yet.


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## MikaTallulah

Aggression breeds aggression. An aggressive or uncontrollable dog should NEVER go to a dog park.


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## SeaMonster

I'm surprised you guys are recommending putting him down. 
The fact that he is doing this to his wife more often than to him, tells me its just a puppy who knows which family member can be overpowered. Gracie used to snap her teeth at me and one time while she was doing it I just lifted her off the ground and locked her in a room and ignored her for an hour. That was the last time she snapped her teeth at anyone.

I'm a firm believer that people are the cause of all doggy issues. What does your dog do in an average week? How many runs? how often do you play with him? how much time does he spend alone? how often is he around other dogs or children? Is every family member committed to enforcing proper behavior and able to react when puppy crosses lines? What forms of punishment do you use? Does he get hit on the nose?


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## Megora

> Gracie used to snap her teeth at me and one time while she was doing it I just lifted her off the ground and locked her in a room and ignored her for an hour. That was the last time she snapped her teeth at anyone.


And if she were truly aggressive - particularly fear aggressive - I imagine you would have gotten nailed when you grabbed her.

Macho methods work with some dogs. Not for all dogs - in some cases, they can make a fearful or reactive dog worse.


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## SeaMonster

Megora said:


> And if she were truly aggressive - particularly fear aggressive - I imagine you would have gotten nailed when you grabbed her.
> 
> Macho methods work with some dogs. Not for all dogs - in some cases, they can make a fearful or reactive dog worse.


I did get nailed. I just over powered her. it was a real fight, I won and she got the message. After I let her out I played with her for an hour and gave her lots of love


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## Claire's Friend

Unless he is describing this wrong, these are viscous attacks, not puppy mouthiness.


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## Megora

SeaMonster said:


> I did get nailed. I just over powered her. it was a real fight, I won and she got the message. After I let her out I played with her for an hour and gave her lots of love


I simply do not think you should be recommending methods like this in the case of a dog who may actually be aggressive or past the point where these methods might help at all.

If a dog actually nailed you, you would have needed stitches.


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## HoundSnout

I appreciate all the recent posts. Some background to answer your questions. First, what I call a dog park is actually a nature preserve of about 100 acres. Dogs are permitted off leash as long as they are behaved. I took him there when no other cars were inn the parking lot; walked him on leash for 1/3 mile, so he wouldn't dash back to the parking lot and onto the road (which he has done before). Then took him to a remote corn field and let him run free to release some energy. We then went into the woods, where I continued to see nobody. He was resting in a small creek when some folks came down the path with the elder dog. Basically, when I see people coming, I leash him up. Next, we have talked to our vet several times, and she basically says to get a good trainer -- not much else. She doesn't say this is odd. Finally, our trainer/behaviorist is a friend, licensed, and her husband is a vet. Regarding how we raise him, there is never fear nor neglect. We lost a wonderful Golden to cancer in Jan 2011, and immediately contacted his breeder's daughter (breeder since retired and daughter kept the business) and picked him from a litter 2 months later. He has had freedom, love, care, forgiveness, and boundaries; never any harsh treatment by anybody, never left outside all day, etc. We raised him just like our first Golden, but with more enforcement of boundaries since he is strong-willed. He is somewhat of a lone wolf but has decent charm and character. But when he gets vicious, it's as if he flips into another completely different personality. His bark, growl and gestures are completely different.


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## nolefan

Hound Snout,
Please, please have the full vet work up done on your dog and ask for a referral to a certified veterinary behaviorst so that you can get one more opinion on this situation since it sounds like the current trainer isn't giving you the support/options you need (or I'm thinking you wouldn't be posting here).

1) No more dog parks
2) No more exposure to any people outside your family, you are correct that you have a moral obligation not to expose anyone to a dog that has the potential to be dangerous.
3) Try to avoid any encounters with the dog that put you in a position of feeling like you are the winner/loser. That is not what this is about. Your instincts are correct and it sounds like you have a very serious problem. She should have a short leash attached to her collar to drag so that if you have to remover her or move her you are not grabbing her collar or her body to do this.
4) Please do not listen to anyone who advises you to try to dominate this dog, she does sound to have a serious problem and those training techniques will absolutely not work for her.
5) Please do not re-home this dog to any shelter or rescue or private person other than the breeder. From what you have told us, she needs professional help and anything less is going to lead to her biting someone innocent.
6) Finally, please understand that everyone here wants the dog to be safe and for you and your family to be safe. Everyone is asking questions trying to get a better understanding of your situation in hopes of helping. We get posts here all the time from people who don't seem to understand normal golden retriever adolescent behavior and how much exercise and training are needed to keep make the dog a good companion. It sounds like your experience is beyond this, I hope you will believe that we are not blaming you at this point but are trying to help you with moving forward on the problem. I think your breeder is going to be your best bet on getting help if the dog is truly unsafe.


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## Claire's Friend

*Sudden rage*

The dog will suddenly act aggressively to anyone nearby, but minutes later will be calm and normal. It does not seem to remember or realise what has taken place and may act immediately friendly to the person(s) that it previously attacked. Attacks such as these have not stopped with training because it is a problem that the dog seemingly cannot consciously control.[1] The attack will happen without apparent cause.[2]
Shortly prior to an attack, their eyes can glaze over and go hard, followed by the dog snapping into alert mode before finally attacking. It appears to an outsider like an exaggerated form of aggression. Often a specific dog can have a certain trigger, such as the unexpected approach of people whilst it is sleeping.


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## hotel4dogs

Houndsnout, thanks for the background. It helps. This is NOT normal golden behavior, and a 13 month old male is a big, strong dog. Since you have already consulted the vet and worked with a trainer, I think you need to take the dog back to the breeder and let him/her use their resources to try to "fix" what's wrong, or perhaps place the dog in a police/drug dog type situation. 
There are some dogs that just have a screw loose. Sounds like you have one of them.


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## nolefan

HoundSnout said:


> we have talked to our vet several times, and she basically says to get a good trainer -- not much else. She doesn't say this is odd. Finally, our trainer/behaviorist is a friend, licensed, and her husband is a vet.
> 
> We raised him just like our first Golden, but with more enforcement of boundaries since he is strong-willed. He is somewhat of a lone wolf but has decent charm and character. But when he gets vicious, it's as if he flips into another completely different personality. His bark, growl and gestures are completely different.


 
If I told my vet that my golden was snapping at children and bit me so hard it broke through a glove, and she didn't offer to do a full blood panel and exam, I would find a new vet, get a second opinion. I really would. 

I have some experience with this issue and the behaviorist I used out of NC State Univ. told me that he is seeing more and more 'bratty puppy" behavior that instead of resolving itself actually goes to full blown 'owner directed agression.' I urge you again to get a second opinion from a certified veterinary behaviorist so that if you do have to return the dog to the breeder you will have a full write up report to give her. And have the blood panel run. What you are describing is not normal behavior.


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## HoundSnout

Thanks to everybody for chiming in. I have spent the last year working from home (when not traveling). The dog gets several walks a day, and multiple play sessions. A mix of inside and outside. All our homes are on 3 acres, and kids next door have 2 Newfies and another rescue, plus cats, gerbils, etc. Their family is animal respecting. We have a large fenced area where he can roam and spend time, and is not bothered by anybody. Out last Golden was a saint, a lover. We practically deified him. He was interested in EVERYTHING we did. He comforted my wife through 2 bouts of cancer, and was the center of our family. This dog has no interest in what we are doing. We do not expect him to fill our prior Golden's paws, and we love him for who he is. My wife always reminds me, "but he WANTS to be good," and she is right. But when he gets that glazed over look (we call it "the crazy eye") he goes way beyond normal Golden adolescent mouthy and challenging behavior, and he escalates quickly into viscousness. After he calms down (about an hour later), he seems to be as depressed as we all are. Believe me, we are heartbroken. So again, I appreciate your sharing your thoughts and experiences. We constantly ask, "Is it US?". But I think that answer is no. There is something physiological and biochemically wrong with this dog. The sad part is that he is one of the handsomest Goldens I have ever seen.


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## nolefan

HoundSnout said:


> Thanks to everybody for chiming in. I have spent the last year working from home (when not traveling). The dog gets several walks a day, and multiple play sessions. A mix of inside and outside. All our homes are on 3 acres, and kids next door have 2 Newfies and another rescue, plus cats, gerbils, etc. Their family is animal respecting. We have a large fenced area where he can roam and spend time, and is not bothered by anybody. Out last Golden was a saint, a lover. We practically deified him. He was interested in EVERYTHING we did. He comforted my wife through 2 bouts of cancer, and was the center of our family. This dog has no interest in what we are doing. We do not expect him to fill our prior Golden's paws, and we love him for who he is. My wife always reminds me, "but he WANTS to be good," and she is right. But when he gets that glazed over look (we call it "the crazy eye") he goes way beyond normal Golden adolescent mouthy and challenging behavior, and he escalates quickly into viscousness. After he calms down (about an hour later), he seems to be as depressed as we all are. Believe me, we are heartbroken. So again, I appreciate your sharing your thoughts and experiences. We constantly ask, "Is it US?". But I think that answer is no. There is something physiological and biochemically wrong with this dog. The sad part is that he is one of the handsomest Goldens I have ever seen.


I'm so sorry for your heartache. I just wanted to share with you that our behaviorst told us that the first thing just about everyone who consults him says is "is it us? what did we do wrong?" and he told me 'no, it's NOT you, it's the dog." I'm truly sorry.


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## Selli-Belle

HoundSnout said:


> Thanks to everybody for chiming in. I have spent the last year working from home (when not traveling). The dog gets several walks a day, and multiple play sessions. A mix of inside and outside. All our homes are on 3 acres, and kids next door have 2 Newfies and another rescue, plus cats, gerbils, etc. Their family is animal respecting. We have a large fenced area where he can roam and spend time, and is not bothered by anybody. Out last Golden was a saint, a lover. We practically deified him. He was interested in EVERYTHING we did. He comforted my wife through 2 bouts of cancer, and was the center of our family. This dog has no interest in what we are doing. We do not expect him to fill our prior Golden's paws, and we love him for who he is. My wife always reminds me, "but he WANTS to be good," and she is right. But when he gets that glazed over look (we call it "the crazy eye") he goes way beyond normal Golden adolescent mouthy and challenging behavior, and he escalates quickly into viscousness. After he calms down (about an hour later), he seems to be as depressed as we all are. Believe me, we are heartbroken. So again, I appreciate your sharing your thoughts and experiences. We constantly ask, "Is it US?". But I think that answer is no. There is something physiological and biochemically wrong with this dog. The sad part is that he is one of the handsomest Goldens I have ever seen.


I agree that it sounds like there is something wrong with the dog's wiring. The glazed look in the eyes sounds similar to "sudden rage" syndrome SRS. I would go directly to Tufts University and try to get to see Dr Dodds. This is what he specializes in. His hypothesis is that frequently dogs with SRS is that they are suffering from siezures. He also has treatment protocols for aggression that is not caused by seizures. It sounds as if your breeder is doing what she can to help, so I would discuss with her whether you want to (or she wants to) invest the time and money into seeing if something can be done to help this guy (and remember that even with help from Dr Dodds, there is no guarantee that he can be helped).

If you aren't capable, for what ever reason, of devoting the resources to this very involved hard process, please, put him to sleep. With dogs who suffer from these issues, they really have no quality of life.

I feel so much for you right now.


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## Claire's Friend

Selli-Belle said:


> I agree that it sounds like there is something wrong with the dog's wiring. The glazed look in the eyes sounds similar to "sudden rage" syndrome SRS. I would go directly to Tufts University and try to get to see Dr Dodds. This is what he specializes in. His hypothesis is that frequently dogs with SRS is that they are suffering from siezures. He also has treatment protocols for aggression that is not caused by seizures. It sounds as if your breeder is doing what she can to help, so I would discuss with her whether you want to (or she wants to) invest the time and money into seeing if something can be done to help this guy (and remember that even with help from Dr Dodds, there is no guarantee that he can be helped).
> 
> If you aren't capable, for what ever reason, of devoting the resources to this very involved hard process, please, put him to sleep. With dogs who suffer from these issues, they really have no quality of life.
> 
> I feel so much for you right now.


I think you might mean Dr. Dodman


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## Selli-Belle

Claire's Friend said:


> I think you might mean Dr. Dodman


You are sooooo right. Thank you, it is Dodman.


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## Swampcollie

HoundSnout, 

Return the dog to the breeder (This isn't normal behavior or a training problem). It's difficult to give up a young dog but you have a responsibility to protect your spouse and children, it's really that simple. The potential damage the dog could do to people or pets is huge, and that you know a problem exists leaves you open to potential lawsuits if he hurts someone. 

Let the breeder evaluate the dog, assess the situation and take what steps are needed.


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## hvgoldens4

This isn't at all normal behavior. As a breeder, I would want this dog back so that I could evaluate the dog to try to see what is going on. There is no way you can keep a dog that is going to harm members of your family. Dogs like this tend to have episodes that escalate and the fact that what you are seeing now is worse than a few months ago really concerns me.


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## Maisie

Definately get a check up with the vet to see if anything is going on medically. Next look up Jane Fennell the dog listener she has books and videos. Also there are Dog listeners all over the US look up online where the nearest one is located. Usually they will travel to you if they are in your region. Jane Fennell's way is the most natural effeciant way, you will not be sorry. Hope this helps a great deal. ps if you have come to the point where you think you have no other option but to put the dog to sleep please try this first.


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## My Big Kahuna

You have received what I believe to be sound advice so all I can do is offer my condolences on this impossible situation... I am so sad for you and your family, and also your golden


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## OutWest

HoundSnout said:


> Thanks to everybody for chiming in. I have spent the last year working from home (when not traveling). The dog gets several walks a day, and multiple play sessions. A mix of inside and outside. All our homes are on 3 acres, and kids next door have 2 Newfies and another rescue, plus cats, gerbils, etc. Their family is animal respecting. We have a large fenced area where he can roam and spend time, and is not bothered by anybody. Out last Golden was a saint, a lover. We practically deified him. He was interested in EVERYTHING we did. He comforted my wife through 2 bouts of cancer, and was the center of our family. This dog has no interest in what we are doing. We do not expect him to fill our prior Golden's paws, and we love him for who he is. My wife always reminds me, "but he WANTS to be good," and she is right. But when he gets that glazed over look (we call it "the crazy eye") he goes way beyond normal Golden adolescent mouthy and challenging behavior, and he escalates quickly into viscousness. After he calms down (about an hour later), he seems to be as depressed as we all are. Believe me, we are heartbroken. So again, I appreciate your sharing your thoughts and experiences. We constantly ask, "Is it US?". But I think that answer is no. There is something physiological and biochemically wrong with this dog. The sad part is that he is one of the handsomest Goldens I have ever seen.



I think your assessment that something is fundamentally wrong sounds on target. You've been living with the dog all this time so I hope you'll trust your instincts. I fostered a puppy a few months back that I'd hoped to keep but she grew into being overly bitey and a poor fit for our family. I didn't trust her with my daughter nor my other dog, and I was a bit afraid of her myself. I ended up returning her to the humane society, and after their trainers and behaviorists worked extensively with her, she had to be put down. They decided she had a genetic predisposition to aggression. It was painful but ultimately I had to acknowledge that I did my best and that she couldn't be "fixed." I'm sorry for the pain you and your wife are going through. Just know that this wasn't a situation of your making--you've given the dog a lot of love.

I would second and third the idea of a thorough vet work up to be sure there's no underlying disease. Good luck and best wishes. Be sure to let us know how things turn out.


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## HoundSnout

Thanks to all I have a plan. I'm going to have the thyroid situation checked out, and if we play that out, I'll have to keep the dog away from everybody, which means no woods, no free running (except in our fenced back yard), etc. If there is thyroid hormone treatment, then we'll give it 3-6 months. However, this is no way for this kind of dog to live, without being able to experience and explore the world, so I feel bad for him. If there is no thyroid condition, then I am not returning the dog to my breeder. This daughter of the original breeder is not the level of quality of her mother, and she is being quite curt and defensive, saying this is all "nurture," not "nature." So the only final option is for me to have the dog put down. I don't want to turn him over to a foreign environment to be put down in a few weeks anyway - he didn't ask for this biology and doesn't deserve any more distress. I will want his last week or so to be familiar and comfortable, since he is losing out on probably 10 more years of what could have been a fulfilling life for him with us. However, after all this, I will feel that I have failed him, and will not feel worthy of owning a Goldn again for a long time, if at all. This breed is God's gift to a world in need of love, laughter and grace. I will still feel like I have failed the breed, since there were more docile puppies I could have picked from the litter. And this guy will have had a life cut short -- but maybe at least it will have been a year where we tried to love and understand him better than some other more macho/alpha owner would have. I guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Nevertheless, thanks to all of you for helping to validate what I was suspecting. I wish you and your Goldens many decades of health and warmth.


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## Capt Jack

Your in Pa. call delaware valley golden retriever rescue & see what they say.I think they will help you.There are always other options and you not deserting the breed you just don't know where to turn.DVGRR may even have advice other than you just giving him up or putting him down.Prayers for you I can tell you need them.


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## Kaila

Claire's Friend said:


> There is a condition called "Sudden Rage" I would look into. I am so sorry you are in this situation. I agree with the others , he needs to be checked out by his vet. If no medical condition can be found, I think he needs to be put down. Let the breeder do it if is too hard for you. This is NOT normal Golden behavior. Again, I am so sorry.


There is no such thing as "Sudden Rage." This is often a misnomer given by owners who can't clearly read canine body language or anticipate behavior problems before they arise. Some dogs have very, VERY subtle tells before they act out aggressively. For example, I had a dog reactive Jack Russell Terrier who would greet a dog with her tail wagging happily, tongue lolling out in a big smile, and then out of nowhere she'd lunge and snap. She didn't just lash out, she went for the kill and would try to pin the other dog (no matter how big or small) and attack their face viciously (drawing blood) if she was not restrained. As a preventative measure, she was never allowed to be off-leash with other dogs, she was never allowed to go to dog parks, she was never fenced or in a kennel where she could fight with dogs on the other side of a barrier, and she was never left unattended with my Chihuahua or any other animal (even though she loved him and was never aggressive to him). We always treated her like we assumed she would bite another dog, even if she wasn't acting like it. Eventually, I learned to read her "tells"-- a very, VERY slight freeze before she snapped. It was so fast, anyone who didn't know her couldn't tell.

Honestly, I don't think your Golden sound aggressive, but without seeing it it's hard to be sure. It sounds like a really mouthy, unneutered adolescent male who hasn't been given clear direction through training. From the very beginning (the very first day that River came home), I taught her to sit for attention. Now, she is never pet or played with unless all four paws are on the ground. If she starts mouthing too hard, we squeal and put her in confinement for a few minutes until she calms down. When we return, we ask for a sit (or some other obedience exercise), and resume playing. It's never mean. I'm not her "alpha." I'm her partner and her teacher, and together we're working on building a relationship based on mutual respect and trust.

Here's an interesting article by veterinarians from the University of Pennsylvania (ivy league vet school). It's about Cocker Spaniels but cites that Golden Retrievers are also an example of a breed thought to be afflicted by "sudden rage syndrome":

http://research.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/36/media/Podberscek_Serpell_English_cocker_spaniel.pdf

I can't comment on the conclusion of the article because I haven't had a chance to fully read it. I just found it and thought it might be useful to someone here.


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## Jige

http://www.essfta.org/health_research/aggression.htm

This is an article I read before Vendetta came int my life. I decided I would put her a Trytophan she gets some everyday. Does it work? Well lets just say for a DA breed she isnt very DA. She dislikes 2 dogs that we have in our lives. You might want to talk to your vet about this regime. I have a vet that is very much into holistic treaments and ver willing to work with me.


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## Ljilly28

There's a good book called Aggression In Dogs: Practical Management, Prevention, and Behavior Modification by Brenda Aloff that is a helpful assessment tool for what is going on. There's a big difference between a reactive dog who is perceiving a threat or has a trigger for this behavior and one that is, as someone said wired wrong . In control conflict aggression, which is one of the debated names for "screw loose" the dog may bite humans bc in a he is a control freak to the nth degree and is sometimes insulted by things that arent readily apparent. Regardless of how things got this way, the dog does sound dangerous and not at all a lovely companion for your household. In fairness to him, a professional behavior assessment from someone like Dr. Dodman at Tufts or Dr. Aloff might be very informative.


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## Sally's Mom

I have to agree with what some earlier posts have said, the dog sounds like it has a screw loose. When you get a golden, you get it for the temperament. IMO, if you have to work hard at making a golden nice, there is something wrong there! But, neutering and testing the thyroid are in order... Neutering has been shown to help in certain aggression situations. Dr Dodman was one of my teachers back in the Dark Ages when I was in school. At that time, he was doing anesthesiology, and researching various animal behaviors. I used to see a springer described by the owner as the best dog they had ever owned. The dog was well behaved, good in the house, EXCEPT, the owners would describe that his eyes would glaze over and then for no reason, he would go after them to hurt them... The problem with that kind of aggression is that when it is unpredictable, what can you do to preempt it? I also have owned nine Goldens total... None have required exercise to make them good pets. However, since I enjoy showing in obedience, they do go to training classes starting at an early age. Not only does that mentally tire them, but it creates a bond.


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## Kaila

Sally's Mom said:


> I have to agree with what some earlier posts have said, the dog sounds like it has a screw loose. When you get a golden, you get it for the temperament. IMO, if you have to work hard at making a golden nice, there is something wrong there! But, neutering and testing the thyroid are in order... Neutering has been shown to help in certain aggression situations. Dr Dodman was one of my teachers back in the Dark Ages when I was in school. At that time, he was doing anesthesiology, and researching various animal behaviors. I used to see a springer described by the owner as the best dog they had ever owned. The dog was well behaved, good in the house, EXCEPT, the owners would describe that his eyes would glaze over and then for no reason, he would go after them to hurt them... The problem with that kind of aggression is that when it is unpredictable, what can you do to preempt it? I also have owned nine Goldens total... None have required exercise to make them good pets. However, since I enjoy showing in obedience, they do go to training classes starting at an early age. Not only does that mentally tire them, but it creates a bond.


IMO, the problem isn't "sudden rage syndrome" (or in the case of Springer Spaniels, "Springer rage syndrome). It's bad breeding. Golden Retrievers are now #3 on the national bite list, if I'm not mistaken. Unfortunately, some breeders don't do temperament tests, take their dogs through obedience programs, acquire dog sports titles, etc. There's no measure for what you're getting in terms of temperament or trainability in the puppy if the parents aren't even evaluated. The dog grows up into an unruly teenager who needs an especially firm and consistent handler, but instead has a regular owner. The dog develops dominance aggression that is difficult to anticipate and he is labelled mentally unstable and is euthanized. It's unfair.

This is the rare exception where I feel that an e-collar for training purposes might be useful to get the dog to the point where he is receptive to training. That's assuming that he can't focus on training because he's too busy trying to stare you down, jump all over you, bite you, be aggressive, etc. (By aggressive, I mean snarling, growling, showing teeth, hackles up, stiff tail, and/or staring with an unwavering gaze.) At the same time, this is the sort of dog that needs a very consistent environment. No free feeding. Nothing In Life Is Free. The handler has to follow through with commands and not allow the dog to EVER make up his mind about whether he wants to obey. He's also not the sort of dog that should ever be in a home with children.

Personally, I think it's unfair to say, "He's a Golden. He should have personality traits x,y,z. He obviously doesn't act like a typical Golden, so we should euthanize him." Behavior problems, even severe ones, do sometimes happen in even the most amiable breeds. He should be neutered so that his bad temperament won't be passed on to any offspring, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he should be euthanized. He could end up being a great working dog for someone.


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## Selli-Belle

Please, please contact Dr Dodman before you do anything else. It doesn't sound as if your vet is up to date on the most current knowledge about treatments for aggression. Take a look at Dr Dodman's books like The Dog Who Loved Too Much or Dogs Behaving Badly. Some of the cases he describes in his books sound so much like your dog. If this were my dog I would do this. If you can't make it to Tufts, they do phone consultations.

This is not normal dog, let alone Golden behavior and nothing you did led to your dog being this way. Would it not be better, if you believe that putting him to sleep would haunt you to know you went to the leading authority in the country to try and get help?

I may have sounded too gloom and doom last time when I said it was hard and expensive, but if it is a seizure disorder, a medication could help him immeasurably (O.K. they could probably measure it, but I hope you get my meaning). He would need to be on medication for the rest of his life, he may need a special diet and he would need to be monitored, but he could have a very good quality of life.

Once again, even before, or while you are testing for thyroid issues, please call Tufts at (508) 839-5395


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## Selli-Belle

Kaila said:


> IMO, the problem isn't "sudden rage syndrome" (or in the case of Springer Spaniels, "Springer rage syndrome). It's bad breeding. Golden Retrievers are now #3 on the national bite list, if I'm not mistaken. Unfortunately, some breeders don't do temperament tests, take their dogs through obedience programs, acquire dog sports titles, etc. There's no measure for what you're getting in terms of temperament or trainability in the puppy if the parents aren't even evaluated. The dog grows up into an unruly teenager who needs an especially firm and consistent handler, but instead has a regular owner. The dog develops dominance aggression that is difficult to anticipate and he is labelled mentally unstable and is euthanized. It's unfair.


Thereis no way to KNOW if it is SRS or not from a forum posting, we can only suggest that it sounds like it or not and I believe the symptoms do sound like SRS. It is up to a veterinary behaviorist or a CAAB to make a diagnosis, no one else is qualified to do so.

In the same vein, we have NO idea if what the parents of this dog are like or if the breeder did temperament testing or if the owners were or were not consistent firm handlers. Most people on this forum, or indeed own Goldens generally got their first puppy from a BYB or someone who did not do any sports with their dogs to prove their temperaments, but wound up with such wonderful dogs that they got even more involved in the breed. These owners have owned Goldens before who had what they considered proper Golden temperaments, so I would assume they knew how to raise a Golden properly.



> This is the rare exception where I feel that an e-collar for training purposes might be useful to get the dog to the point where he is receptive to training. That's assuming that he can't focus on training because he's too busy trying to stare you down, jump all over you, bite you, be aggressive, etc. (By aggressive, I mean snarling, growling, showing teeth, hackles up, stiff tail, and/or staring with an unwavering gaze.) At the same time, this is the sort of dog that needs a very consistent environment. No free feeding. Nothing In Life Is Free. The handler has to follow through with commands and not allow the dog to EVER make up his mind about whether he wants to obey. He's also not the sort of dog that should ever be in a home with children.


NO NO NO an e-collar IS NOT a good idea. We don't know what is causing this dog's aggression, shocking it (inflicting pain) to train it not to be aggressive makes no sense. The most inflicting pain will do is cause the dog to shut down in a learned helplessness sort of way. That won't eliminate the aggression only bury it and it will resurface when the dog either feels he can get away with it or when he is pushed too far.



> Personally, I think it's unfair to say, "He's a Golden. He should have personality traits x,y,z. He obviously doesn't act like a typical Golden, so we should euthanize him." Behavior problems, even severe ones, do sometimes happen in even the most amiable breeds. He should be neutered so that his bad temperament won't be passed on to any offspring, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he should be euthanized. He could end up being a great working dog for someone.


No one said to euthanize him because he does not act like a "typical Golden" rather that because the extremes of aggression he displays are not in keeping with the range of Golden temperaments, or indeed the range of temperaments for any normal dog. No breed of dog should be so aggressive with their own humans, it is not an adaptive behavior. I don't think anyone would say that a dog who attacks their owner, no matter the breed, should be bred, so that trait would not be passed down. That he displays this behavior suggests that there is a wiring problem in his brain and if there is, there may be no solution and he may need to be PTS. 

And believe me, no one who wants a "working dog (do you mean a hunting dog?) wants a dog who attacks them. A stable temperament is even more important in a "working" dog since they are placed under more pressure than a pet dog.


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## Blondie

We can hear the frustration and disappointment in your posts about your boy. I don't know if you answered the question about your boy being neutered, but I couldn't find if that had any possibility contributing to his overall behavior. So deeply sorry you are experiencing this difficult time. This is not fair to you or the dog. I hope you are able to find expert help and get sound solutions. Please check in when you are able. We are all concerned. While sharing your experience, you will be helping others along the way. Best wishes as you journey forward. Prayers coming your way.


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## Ljilly28

When we have someone call our training center, one of the ways in which we decide if you can help the dog or if we should refer the family to Tufts/Dr. Dodman is by taking a detailed bite history that separates how the family/owner feels about the dog, fears about what the dog might do in the future, from the facts. We go through each incident the person can remember. Did the person or dog require emergency medical attention is one of the most important questions bc it pertains to the dog's capacity for bite inhibition. The prognosis is always much better in a dog that has a history, yet has not done serious damage physically. Also, there usually is a trigger, like resource guarding, or the dog has learned over time that aggression is a rewarding strategy. If you decide to work with the dog, you should find a positive trainer who does not use pain or aggression toward the dog. Also, you can teach a dog, with treats, to readily accept a basket muzzle so you can work with the dog, but be safe.


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## Sally's Mom

Kaila, Sorry do not agree, but that is the beauty of the forum, we don't need to agree, just have to express opinions..... I have worked with all breeds of dogs with all temperaments for almost 26 years. Through the years, I believe I have seen some dogs that have incorrect wiring. If one reads the standard for the golden retriever, temperament is certainly addressed. For me , first and foremost is the unpredictability of the behavior described. How can you protect yourself for that? When I was a child, we had a possessive/aggressive beagle. When she went under the dining room table with a prized possession, you left her alone. I was eight and I understood this and never was bitten(never came close). However, if she randomly chose to snap at us, it would've been a different story. I chose Goldens because I wanted dogs to adore me, with the nine I own , my wish has been granted.


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## Aislinn

Please do not blame yourself at all. Sometimes even in the best of breeds there can be a problem to rear up. It has nothing to do with the owners or how the dog was raised. It's a mental illness. If it's a true mental illness, not a whole lot can be done with a dog. Think of how hard it is for people with problems and they can talk and say what's wrong. 

Don't turn away from Golden's because of one dog's problem. If you feel that putting your dog down is best, then it is. You know your dog and the situation more than any who can read what you put on a forum. You've worked with your vet and a behaviorist. I'd say you've done all that's humanly possible. If you are leary of another puppy, then look into Golden Rescue. You are a good owner, the kind breeders *want* to place a puppy or dog with. 

Best of luck and we're here for you no matter what decision you make.


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## BayBeams

I am so sorry you are having to deal with this situation. We all hope for that sweet, out going temperament that is more "typical" of a Golden's nature.
I have a Golden that was not of the best temperament. She bit, snarled, lunged from under the table and was generally a difficult adolescent to deal with. I was actually afraid of her at one point and shed many tears that my pup would never overcome her monster behavior. Her problems sound different from yours but non the less they created a stressful home situation.
However, my girl's story has a happy ending. I spent years helping her overcome her fears and aggressive behavior and worked on desensitizing her to her over sensitivity to being touched or handled. She is now a real asset to my household and everyone tells me how she is such a "sweetie". She still has occasional moments when she bares her teeth but I can predict the situation and know how to handle it. 
I truly wish you the best for a very trying situation. Hoping things work out for you.
Oh yes, and my girl had hypothyroidism and was assessed my Dr. Dodds but even after supplementation she continued to demonstrate behaviors that were atypical, though there did seem to be less of an edge to her. 
Wishing you the best outcome....


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## HoundSnout

What an array of information -- all extremely helpful. I have to be out of town for a few days, so I'll have time to digest all of this. Unfortunately, my wife will have the double duty with the our Golden. I'm looking at the thoughts above about trying to keep and rehab him, but he will be limited in a life loaded with cautions, and not exhibit much of that Golden temperament. I can't imagine bringing another Golden into the home over the next 9 years or so, and by that time, my next opportunity to try again will be in my mid 60s, and I'm not so sure we'll be in shape or be living in the same setting where a large dog will be comfortable, or even permitted. We are all arguing (including my adult kids, who think we should keep him) as a family so there is lots of turmoil right now. Perhaps if I can do some thinking on this for a few days -- it may be helpful.


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## Selli-Belle

I wish you peace with what ever your decision is.


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## Pointgold

Kaila said:


> There is no such thing as "Sudden Rage." This is often a misnomer given by owners who can't clearly read canine body language or anticipate behavior problems before they arise. Some dogs have very, VERY subtle tells before they act out aggressively. For example, I had a dog reactive Jack Russell Terrier who would greet a dog with her tail wagging happily, tongue lolling out in a big smile, and then out of nowhere she'd lunge and snap. She didn't just lash out, she went for the kill and would try to pin the other dog (no matter how big or small) and attack their face viciously (drawing blood) if she was not restrained. As a preventative measure, she was never allowed to be off-leash with other dogs, she was never allowed to go to dog parks, she was never fenced or in a kennel where she could fight with dogs on the other side of a barrier, and she was never left unattended with my Chihuahua or any other animal (even though she loved him and was never aggressive to him). We always treated her like we assumed she would bite another dog, even if she wasn't acting like it. Eventually, I learned to read her "tells"-- a very, VERY slight freeze before she snapped. It was so fast, anyone who didn't know her couldn't tell.
> 
> Honestly, I don't think your Golden sound aggressive, but without seeing it it's hard to be sure. It sounds like a really mouthy, unneutered adolescent male who hasn't been given clear direction through training. From the very beginning (the very first day that River came home), I taught her to sit for attention. Now, she is never pet or played with unless all four paws are on the ground. If she starts mouthing too hard, we squeal and put her in confinement for a few minutes until she calms down. When we return, we ask for a sit (or some other obedience exercise), and resume playing. It's never mean. I'm not her "alpha." I'm her partner and her teacher, and together we're working on building a relationship based on mutual respect and trust.
> 
> Here's an interesting article by veterinarians from the University of Pennsylvania (ivy league vet school). It's about Cocker Spaniels but cites that Golden Retrievers are also an example of a breed thought to be afflicted by "sudden rage syndrome":
> 
> http://research.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/36/media/Podberscek_Serpell_English_cocker_spaniel.pdf
> 
> I can't comment on the conclusion of the article because I haven't had a chance to fully read it. I just found it and thought it might be useful to someone here.


 
Here is an article that may be an easier read, and more able to be related to: Rage Syndrome Article

No matter the "cause", the bottom line, here, is that the behavior exhibited by the OP's dog is incorrect. Period. No excuses. No one should have to work this hard to live with a Golden Retriever. :no:


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## Buddy's mom forever

Selli-Belle said:


> I wish you peace with what ever your decision is.


I am sorry what you are going thru, it is hard situation to deal with, when your heart and mind are not on the same side. But I pray for a miracle.


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## Selli-Belle

Also look at this article by Dr Dodman


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## Megora

HoundSnout said:


> What an array of information -- all extremely helpful. I have to be out of town for a few days, so I'll have time to digest all of this. Unfortunately, my wife will have the double duty with the our Golden. I'm looking at the thoughts above about trying to keep and rehab him, but he will be limited and not exhibit much of that Golden temperament.


One suggestion I have - is talk to your wife and son about your dog's boundaries. You guys need to be on the same page. 

Our first golden was a combination of poor breeding and HORRIBLE training. This is why I jumped to the conclusion (with your alpha comment) that you were using macho methods to work with what might be a fearful and edgy dog. 

With our first golden - the instructor identified him as dominant dog. I don't remember how she figured that out, because about that time he was 12 weeks old and not really displaying any macho behaviors other than trying to mount everything. She told us to pin him for ten minutes every day. To give him scruff shakes and growl/yell at him whenever he didn't back off of something. To shake metal cans at him. When he was running off with things to hide with them, she wanted us to chase him down and flip him over and pin him for ten minutes. 

Got that?

And the people training him were me and my two older sisters - ages 11 through 15. Think overly emotional young people with high pitched voices grabbing this poor dog and manhandling him.

We dropped out of those classes and stopped using those methods... but the damage was already done.

After he started resource guarding (growling when he was lying on the couch and somebody came up to grab his collar to pull him off, growling when he had something from the garbage that need to be taken away, etc), we changed the way we worked with him.

We had to recognize that he had his limits and we had to recognize what those limits were. Over the years, we really worked with him to make him "sounder" or more trustworthy. And at the same time we never pushed him beyond that limit. 

When our dog would resource guard, he would get that same glazed over wild look on his face and raise his lips. <- Over time, we got him so when he would tense up, we would tell him to knock it off and he would. Or he would get up and run off, grumbling the entire way. 

There were no further attempts to "dominate" this dog. We simply had to learn how to make him obedient and trusting to the point that he never snapped. Especially since we had kids around the neighborhood who would come to visit him (he loved kids). 

When you said that your dog flipped out in the car, to me that sounds like some kind of fear behavior. Your dog felt cornered. Start there. 

And please switch behavioralists. 

I think it's a good thing that you have reached that point where you recognize that your golden does not have the golden temperament. If that is something you can live with while making adjustments in how you approach this dog and handle him, I don't see why you can't find a way to live with him.

Running loose - it's overrated with these dogs - especially when they are as young as your dog is. Since he's shown himself to be dog aggressive, he can't be off leash around other dogs. And it unfortunately means you can't have another dog while this one is that unstable. 

As long as you are getting him on leash and going for walks with him, your dog can be very happy. 

Through dog class, I've seen people with reactive or aggressive dogs. Three breeds I can think of that have shown this "glitch" would be (American) German Shepherds, St. Bernards, and English Springers. In these cases, the trainers have been able to take these dogs into group classes and even shows where they would be in close proximity with other dogs. The owner of the St. Bernard actually has a CGC on his dog, despite the fact that his dog must never ever be loose around other dogs. If you've ever had a snarling and roaring St. Bernard coming at your dog, it is something that can make a snapping golden retriever seem like easypeasy. 

These are things you can work through - with appropriate guidance with a qualified trainer, as well as your own committment to working with a glitchy dog. 



> I can't imagine brining another Golden into the home over the next 7 years, and by that time, my next opportunity to try again will be in my rely 60s, and I'm not so sure we'll be in shape or be living in the same setting. We are all arguing (including my adult kids, who think we should keep him) as a family so there is lots of turmoil right now. Perhaps if I can do some thinking on this for a few days -- it may be helpful.


My parents are in their late 60's and early 70's. They are awesome taking care of my golden and his collie bro during the day. So I wouldn't say never. And even if your health or physical strength doesn't allow you to bring a young dog home, you can always adopt an adult. And it might even be a better situation for you since you will be able to choose a dog based on his mature temperament and behavior. 

Keep your chin up.


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## Orchid

I am sorry that you are having such a hard time with your Golden. You have my best wishes for finding a good solution. 

I am a newbie with dogs and so, I do not have the experience to really adviceand you have recieved some excellent advise here. However, these 12 and a half months with Buddy has taught me a lot and I am learning every day. I totally sympathize with you for having to deal with such 'ungolden' behavior,but it is a fact that not all dogs are the same. 

Your Golden might just be having some health problems or is probably exhibiting fear. I am more inclined to go with the latter. But, I would request you to think a million times before even _thinking_ about euthanizing him. Please do not take me wrong, but euthanizing a dog is taking the easy way out. I would probably only consider this approach incase of a severe untreatable illness,not otherwise. While I agree that in some dogs it is probably unavoidable but your golden does not seem to be such a case. Not yet. He is just a teenager at this point and lots of dogs show weird behavior till this age. 

Please do consult a different behaviorist/trainer. If that does not work,do consult another. I am sure that you love your dog a lot and are leaving no stone unturned and that this is a very difficult time for you. But I do hope that you will go that extra mile for your Golden. You will probably have to work a lot harder than any average Golden owner but it may so happen that at the end of another year or so you have a dog whom you will be proud to call your own. 

We hear so may stories how once aggressive dogs, including Goldens, changed so much for the better. I will keep hoping that someday i get to hear a similar story about your Golden. 

Wishing you and your dog the bestest of luck. Whatever your decision be we would support you. Good luck. just one question, what is your Golden's name? I think I missed that...


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## OutWest

HoundSnout said:


> What an array of information -- all extremely helpful. I have to be out of town for a few days, so I'll have time to digest all of this. Unfortunately, my wife will have the double duty with the our Golden. I'm looking at the thoughts above about trying to keep and rehab him, but he will be limited in a life loaded with cautions, and not exhibit much of that Golden temperament. I can't imagine bringing another Golden into the home over the next 9 years or so, and by that time, my next opportunity to try again will be in my mid 60s, and I'm not so sure we'll be in shape or be living in the same setting where a large dog will be comfortable, or even permitted. We are all arguing (including my adult kids, who think we should keep him) as a family so there is lots of turmoil right now. Perhaps if I can do some thinking on this for a few days -- it may be helpful.


Tough situation but it's good that you and your family are all discussing. Lots of info in this thread. Please do let us know what you decide. Sending good thoughts your way.


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## mylissyk

HoundSnout said:


> Thanks to all I have a plan. I'm going to have the thyroid situation checked out, and if we play that out, I'll have to keep the dog away from everybody, which means no woods, no free running (except in our fenced back yard), etc. If there is thyroid hormone treatment, then we'll give it 3-6 months. However, this is no way for this kind of dog to live, without being able to experience and explore the world, so I feel bad for him. If there is no thyroid condition, then I am not returning the dog to my breeder. This daughter of the original breeder is not the level of quality of her mother, and she is being quite curt and defensive, saying this is all "nurture," not "nature." So the only final option is for me to have the dog put down. I don't want to turn him over to a foreign environment to be put down in a few weeks anyway - he didn't ask for this biology and doesn't deserve any more distress. I will want his last week or so to be familiar and comfortable, since he is losing out on probably 10 more years of what could have been a fulfilling life for him with us. However, after all this, I will feel that I have failed him, and will not feel worthy of owning a Goldn again for a long time, if at all. This breed is God's gift to a world in need of love, laughter and grace. I will still feel like I have failed the breed, since there were more docile puppies I could have picked from the litter. And this guy will have had a life cut short -- but maybe at least it will have been a year where we tried to love and understand him better than some other more macho/alpha owner would have. I guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Nevertheless, thanks to all of you for helping to validate what I was suspecting. I wish you and your Goldens many decades of health and warmth.


You are a conscientious, thoughtful, and caring owner. I really hope you will come to the realization that you are in no way at fault, you certainly have not failed him, or this breed. You gave him a home, and worked harder than a huge majority of pet owners would have even considered to give him a good life. What you are dealing with is not your fault, nor could you prevent or correct it. What you describe is something that is wired wrong in your boys brain.

Whatever you decide, you have the support of this board. I hope you will give yourself permission to have another Golden Retriever, sooner rather than later. You certainly deserve to experience that gift.


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## Aislinn

Orchid said:


> But, I would request you to think a million times before even _thinking_ about euthanizing him. Please do not take me wrong, but euthanizing a dog is taking the easy way out. I would probably only consider this approach incase of a severe untreatable illness,not otherwise. While I agree that in some dogs it is probably unavoidable but your golden does not seem to be such a case. Not yet. He is just a teenager at this point and lots of dogs show weird behavior till this age.
> 
> Please do consult a different behaviorist/trainer. If that does not work,do consult another.


I agree with looking at a different behaviorist. However, having worked in rescue and having had to make difficult decisions myself, I respectfully disagree that euthanizing is taking the easy way out. In fact, it is the hardest way out. Only you can know if the dog is a danger to others and that is what it boils down to. You truly love your dog and if that is the road you have to travel, I know it will be one of the hardest roads you will go down and it is only because there are no other roads open to you. The safety of those around the dog is the most important fact and only you and your family can decide that. If your children are urging you to keep the dog, perhaps they will be willing to take him or her. I think asking them will tell you their true feelings. My prayers are with you in deciding what is best for your dog and your family.


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## Orchid

Aislinn said:


> I agree with looking at a different behaviorist. However, having worked in rescue and having had to make difficult decisions myself, I respectfully disagree that euthanizing is taking the easy way out. In fact, it is the hardest way out. Only you can know if the dog is a danger to others and that is what it boils down to. You truly love your dog and if that is the road you have to travel, I know it will be one of the hardest roads you will go down and it is only because there are no other roads open to you.


I am really sorry if my comment has hurt someone's feelings. I never meant the euthanizing is easy; of course it is not. It is probably the toughtest that any family has to make in terms of their much-loved pet. I just meant that the OP should try a little more and go another extra mile before thinking of putting the dog down. Not all aggressive dogs are incurable and maybe his golden will turn out to be one. 

Even so, my apologies that my comment probably came forward as unthinking. It was never meant to be such.


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## HoundSnout

We got a referral for an intensive medical and behavioral analysis at the University of Pennsylvania Veterinary School. We are going to pursue this in the hopes of finding an answer and a way forward. I am very encouraged.


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## Sally's Mom

Keep us all posted, sounds like a great plan!!


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## Aislinn

Do keep us posted. You love your dog and that is evident. I support you in any decision you make. You have gone far past what the average owner will do for their dog. Do keep us updated as you work with UPVS. Best of luck!


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## Evie

I have come late to this thread but have read it now and I just wanted to thank you for putting so much responsible thought, care, and feeling into this dog's life. If I were unable to make decisions for my dog's future, you are the kind of person I would want doing it in my stead. Good luck to you.


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## My Big Kahuna

Evie said:


> I have come late to this thread but have read it now and I just wanted to thank you for putting so much responsible thought, care, and feeling into this dog's life. If I were unable to make decisions for my dog's future, you are the kind of person I would want doing it in my stead. Good luck to you.


Well spoken... Couldn't agree more...


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## coppers-mom

HoundSnout said:


> We got a referral for an intensive medical and behavioral analysis at the University of Pennsylvania Veterinary School. We are going to pursue this in the hopes of finding an answer and a way forward. I am very encouraged.


wonderful! I hope and pray they find a way to help you and your boy.


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## nolefan

HoundSnout said:


> We got a referral for an intensive medical and behavioral analysis at the University of Pennsylvania Veterinary School. We are going to pursue this in the hopes of finding an answer and a way forward. I am very encouraged.


 
There are a lot of people in your corner, pulling for you and your dog. Please keep us posted on how you and your family are doing. Hopefully we will all learn something from your experience....


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## A1Malinois

I hope you find answers in with this testing. If nothing is found and trainers etc arent helping I would seriously consider putting him down. Hes a huge liability unfortunately. What if one day he gets off the lead and grabs a kid...

About the springer rage, my friends springer spaniel had that. Was perfectly fine then one day just for no reason out of total randomness would start mauling the owners, random people, the vet etc. The vet was the one who diagnosed springer rage after some extensive testing and they decided in the end to put the dog down.


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## Rhapsody in Gold

HoundSnout said:


> My 13-month old male golden has been biting and bruising my wife for the last 8 months. Until 3 months ago, he still took direction from me and saw me as Alpha. Then one day, I put him into the car and he went into a vicious tirade and put a "kill bite" (as opposed to the usual Golden "soft bite") on my arm. He began snapping at small neighbor children 6 months ago. Then a few weeks ago, he tried to maul my adult son, jumping frantically at his arms and face, snapping his jaws, rapidly twisting his body and leaving strings of bubbly saliva everywhere. He has taken to tearing into me like this now, and rarely follows my direction. We have been working with a behaviorist/trainer, but he's actually becoming more vicisous. His last bite at me came through my glove and broke skin. Today at the dog park, a senior golden came up to sniff, and my dog jumped him and mauled him, biting his ear. He was ferocious, deep, loud growling with jaws continually snapping, foaming mouth, etc. He also got on top of the old dog, wrapped his legs around the dog's body and continually snapped into his neck and ears with strong bites. There seems to be a switch in his head that flips, and he turns into a dangerous monster. I have never witnessed a more vicious dog in my 50+ years, and I am moving in my mind towards either putting him in a no-kill shelter, giving him back to the breeder (who says that if he cant be placed, then she'll put him down) or even something more ultimate. It's just not fair and ethical to the people who live around us or the other dogs he meets. I am really torn about this, and am wondering if anybody else has seen this type of extreme behavior. If you have anything to share, I'm all ears.


 
We had a Schutzhund long-haired German Shepherd. He was absolutely beautiful and very intelligent. We took him home when he was 4 months old. The breeder said he did not make the police program but he was just like a teddy bear. She even named him Teddy. 

We noticed his aggressiveness around other people and dogs right away. We went to training classes for a while - but as he got older, his behavior became worse and more unpredictable. The instructors first moved us to one part of the classroom. Then we were told they did not feel he was safe to have in class. I arranged private sessions for him. I met with two different behaviorists who were familiar with the breed. The training methods were very forceful. I do believe this made him worse.

One of the behaviorists told me that we had a dog that would die for us. That he was mentally ill. That there was nothing we could have do. 

We lived in a residential area. We were worried for the children in our neighborhood. We were worried about what would happen if he attacked someone in front of our own children - or if someone tried to shoot him. 

After consulting with several people who work with German Shepherds, we decided to put him down. It was absolutely heartbreaking. My children still talk about him today. We considered all the options. My husband is an attorney and he was concerned about our liability even if we could re-home him. I did not consider taking him back to the breeder. I felt she was irresponsible in giving him to us and I did not trust her. We felt the most humane option was to put him down - we were there, we held him, we cried - but it was gentle and we felt we were being responsible in doing so.

I can tell you a dog that is leaping towards the face to bite is dangerous. The picture you described is something I experienced many times as trainers tried to work with our Shepherd. 

I am so sorry. My experience has been that most people don't know what this type of behavior really looks like. When an agressive dog is on alert, there is nothing that will stop him. He goes to another place in his head - and then when it is over, there is, as you described, the quiet. I know how difficult this is. My heart goes out to you.

There is something positive in my story - since then, we have enjoyed a wonderful life with four other dogs who have been wonderful companions. We learned the importance of studying the breeds, learning about breeders, considering our own limitations as a family and using positive methods for training.

I hope you will find the guidance you need and that it is helpful to you. I wish you well.


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## Sally's Mom

Marty's Mom, totally sad story. But, unfortunately, I truly believe that there are dogs out there with screws loose...


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## Pointgold

Sally's Mom said:


> Marty's Mom, totally sad story. But, unfortunately, I truly believe that there are dogs out there with screws loose...


 
I agree. And when an owner has tried everything, to no avail, there is no other alternative. It is heartbreaking, but in the end, the most responsible decision.


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## HoundSnout

Update. We have an appt at U. of Penn Behavioral Clinic on April 25. A lady from there called me last week and spent 45 minutes on the phone, reassuring me that there was nothing we did or failed to do. She was an angel -- just so insightful. In the meantime, my wife spoke to the breeder, who again accused us of failing to intensively train this Golden. In an email, she called us irresponsible and said, "people like you don't deserve to have dogs.". The next day, she called my wife to apologize and said she would drive 100 miles to our home to pick up the dog and refund our money. We declined. I want a professional evaluation, and if Penn says euthanasia is the right course of action, then I will take him to my vet -- he's MY dog and it's my responsibility to give him an exit with dignity, love and familiar surroundings. Anyway we're filling out the 18-page Penn questionnaire (they leave no stone unturned, including the last question, "Why do you want to keep this dog?") and we can't wait till the 25th. Again, thanks to all for sharing your experiences -- it has kept us from sinking all the way to the bottom on this strange journey. And I wish you decades of health and deep companionship with your dogs.


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## solinvictus

Thank you for the update. I am so glad that you have that appointment. I think it is important to have your dog evaluated by the professionals. If there is any special way of working through this they will be able to tell you. (possibly a retraining program that incorporates some medicine to change brain responses. I also hope that they will be totally honest and if the odds of changing him are low that they can offer you comfort with your decision to euthanize him. I do hope they will be able to give you clear answers. Sometimes they just can't. 
I am so sorry that your breeder is not being supportive of your problem.

What ever decision you and your family have to make will be the right one even if it isn't easy. Please accept my support and prayers.


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## hvgoldens4

I am wishing you all the best. I absolutely agree that you have done nothing wrong. Unfortunately, even when you do everything that you are supposed to, this can happen. Sometimes dogs just aren't hard wired properly and it isn't anyone's fault. I was just talking with someone this week who had similar problems with a mixed breed. 

I hope you get the outcome you are looking for.


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## Buddy's mom forever

Sending best wishes and prayers for good outcome from this appointment.


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## My Big Kahuna

Will be thinking of you...


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## HolDaisy

Just catching up with this thread now. It's an incredibly difficult situation that you are in. It sounds as if you're exploring all the options thoroughly though and being responsible. Young goldens can be extremely boisterous and overpowering beyond belief, but it does sound as if yours is a bit beyond the norm. Hope you manage to get some good advice, we're thinking of you.


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## Sosoprano

Just came to this thread today and think your dog is so fortunate to have you looking out for his best interests. Another person might have given up a long time ago or resorted to training methods that would only have made the situation worse. I hope the appointment at UPenn goes well and that you come home with fresh hope and a solid plan for moving forward. Good luck!


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## my4goldens

It sounds like you have a good plan now. However this turns out just know that you have done everything in your power for this dog. Good luck at your appointment.


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## nolefan

Thank you for the update, I've thought of you several times and wondered how you all were faring. Praying for your strength....


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## mylissyk

I sincerely hope that your appointment gives you peace with whatever decision you need to make. You have certainly done everything in your power to help your dog, you are in my opinion very responsible and should be commended for making every effort that you have.


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## OutWest

Good luck. Will watch for your next update.


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## Deber

Your breeder truly disappoints me. Am proud that you are pursuing your own avenue at Penn. Hopefully they will find a reason and treatment but no matter what, you have gone way beyond what most would do. Prayers for your boy and you & family.


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## JazzSkye

I second Deber's post. Not going to complicate matters by saying what I think of your breeder's reaction. However, I highly respect your attitude and the steps you're taking on this dog's behalf. You're giving him every chance, and it's not an easy call to make no matter how one feels on training methods, genetics, or euthanasia. Sometimes you just don't know what to do or how to proceed. I commend the love and effort you're putting in. 

If there's one thing I wish you could let go of, it's the notion that if this dog doesn't respond, that you've failed and don't deserve another Golden. That would be a double tragedy my friend, because dogs need owners like you. Chin up.


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## HoundSnout

Update. We had our UPenn visit today. 5 hours with the vet and 4 graduating seniors. Plus the most amazing and insightful trainer who is not only dog-wise but also life-wise beyond her 60+ years. Their diagnosis is that all of his negative behavior stems from a genetic predisposition to anxiety. We are trying some new training and some medication and some environment modification in our home. We have eMail and phone access for 3 months (and they encouraged us to "hound" them with questions and updates), the saint of a trainer will make home visits if we want -- and then we'll get back together in 3 months to evaluate the progress and weigh options. These people have a calm, balanced and experienced/confident approach to how they treat these types of problems. They were able to tell me what was going on inside my dog's head when he put what I described as a kill-bite on me (which really was not intended to be vicious but rather a release of anxiety overload). We have a lot of work ahead of us, with absolutely no promises of a positive outcome. However, we have hope, and expert guidance behind us for the next 3 months. We plan to make the best use of these resources to get to a good place. I'll send updates as we progress, since the weight of all your sincere good wishes is the only thing that has got us through the past few months to our appointment this morning. Hoping life is well with all of you and your furry friends.


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## solinvictus

You put tears in my eyes. (good tears)

"However, we have hope, and expert guidance behind us for the next 3 months."

I see the words hope and guidance and am crossing my fingers and telling Helie to cross his paws that with the meds and guidance that in the 3 months you can see some light for more hope toward the future. 

Thank you so much for the update. I really think that you went to the right place. Thank you for not just giving up at least when the 3 months are up what ever decision needs to be made you know you gave him the best he could have.


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## My Big Kahuna

Thanks for the update!!! Looks like that place is everything you needed  I am so thankful you have professionals in your corner that are willing to be with you every step of the way! I will be sending you good thoughts and look forward to details as to how they are modifying his behavior, etc


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## mylissyk

This is tremendous. I hope their support and input makes a massive difference for you. Being able to understand why he behaves that way is a huge step in the right direction. 

All the best wishes that you see steady improvement. I'm so pleased for you.


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## Caesar's Buddy

Wonderful, your dog is lucky


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## luvbuzz

Bless you for trying your hardest. Thank you for the update.


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## SheetsSM

Wow, your dedication to your golden is tremendous--I think many people would have cut their losses and bailed, but your family is going the extra mile(s) to give this pup every opportunity. Your realistic perspective on the next 3 mos is commendable. I look forward to reading updates.


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## SandyK

Glad your visit at Penn was a good one!! Now you can try using what they told you for our boy. Good luck and I hope it will all work out!!!:crossfing


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## OutWest

Good luck. It sounds like there's some light at the end of the tunnel.


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## Sally's Mom

So glad you went the extra mile... Please keep us all posted.... Your dog is lucky to have yu.


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## Buddy's mom forever

Thank you for the update. Sending many, many prayers for success. Best wishes for all of you. And God bless you for doing all of it for your dog. Your put your hear in it I truly believe it is going to give positive outcome at the end.


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## Selli-Belle

Thank you for doing this and good luck.


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## HolDaisy

Thanks for the update. Glad you've found some support from the professionals and hopefully things will start to improve soon!


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## fostermom

What a promising update! Thank you so much for sharing. I'll be sending good thoughts that all the work you will be putting in will allow you to have the enjoyable family member that you were envisioning from the beginning.


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## nolefan

I really can't tell you how happy it made me to read the most recent update. Wow. I am pulling for you all so hard.... fingers crossed for forward progress...


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## Makomom

Just read this thread and so glad you found the help you and your family needed!!!!


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## brens29

I just read this post for the first time. I hope things start to improve for you and your family. Sounds like you have a great team on your side to help. Please keep us informed.


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## mooselips

I am hoping and praying for you.

Please keep us informed.


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## Phillyfisher

I am late to this thread, but so glad to see you work so tirelessly to find the cause of your dog's issues. Lesser owners would have given up long ago. I grew up in West Chester. If you need another trainer, we have an excellent one we use in Frazer, just send me a PM.. Bless you for seeking all the answers before making any decisions. Looking forward to hearing more from you in the future.


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## Evie

Thanks for the update -- like many here I have been wondering how you're doing. Best wishes to all of you.


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## HoundSnout

Update 2 weeks after visit at UPenn. He is doing much better. He's up to full dose of Clomicalm, which seems to take the edge off without making him dopey. We are also doing some simple training, mostly to break his attention when he seems to be escalating with overactive behavior. He is still a bit mouthy, but nowhere near the snapping we experienced before. The real key the Penn vets got across to us is that he wasn't acting out of anger, but rather fear and apprehension. They told us this is not the type of dog you can train with dominance and hard boundaries. It has to be slow, patient positive reinforcement. So the usual things don't work. The only thing that bothers me is that he is not getting vigorous exercise. We do a lot of fetching in the fenced back yard, and take some walks (where he decides to lay down on the side of the road for 20 minutes, and we can't force him, and he won't move for food, not even hot dogs or cheese). But things are much better. I'm hoping that with gentle consistency and him reaching maturity in a year or so, that maybe we will be able to trust him off leash on our 2 acres for short fetch periods. But we will see - we are taking it slow and steady at this point, and are very thankful to be here.


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## Buddy's mom forever

Sending my prayers. Happy to read good news, it is getting better. God bless you.


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## GoldenMum

What a wonderful update......what you're doing for this boy is amazing...HUGGS to all!


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## mooselips

Glad he's doing better......please keep updating........

And how are you all doing?


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## nolefan

Thank you for the uPdate, I think of you often. Would a 25 foot length of line give you more freedom?


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## solinvictus

" we are taking it slow and steady at this point, and are very thankful to be here."

Thank you so much for the update. I am so glad that for your family that there has been improvement in the last two weeks. Continued good thoughts and prayers for support because what you are doing isn't easy. Thank you for loving your baby dog to go the distance.


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## Sally's Mom

Keep up the excellent work. Training creates a good bond with your dog.


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## JazzSkye

So glad to hear you've made measurable progress. I continue to be amazed by the lengths you're willing to go to, to make this boy's life a good one. Please keep the updates coming.


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## HoundSnout

Sad news. In the long run the medication and behavior modification training has not worked. What we have learned, with the help of the wonderful folks at University of Pennsylvania Veterinary School, is that our boy is not an alpha dog at all -- he is riddled with anxiety. He sees almost everything in his environment as a threat, and his response is to flood himself with adrenaline and cortisol. He goes into self-protection mode, and his response is then to lash out aggressively. We have used doggie Xanax to the point of him being too doped up and sensing that lack of control, he gets even more threatened and aggressive. He lashed out at both our groomer and our vet this last week, and even put a hard and fast bite on me. Both the groomer and vet said that honestly they were afraid of our dog. He is very uptight and does not seem happy or trusting at all. Given that he has not improved and can be a threat to others if he is ever let free, and that we have to put muzzles on him and keep him fenced in without freedom, we have decided to put him down this week. I feel really bad for him, but he's just not a happy golden at all, and he is a threat to us and others. All the hopes and dreams we had for a family companion go with him as well. Our vet said this is rare in Goldens, but does happen from time to time. I am confident that we have done everything we could do in terms of getting professional help, and that we loved him unconditionally. But in the end, he is still a threat to humans, and we could not live with ourselves if somebody else got injured. It is also very stressful to look after a threatening dog, with little warm and trusting relationship I return. These things happen... That still does not make it easy.


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## Jennifer1

I'm so sorry, but it sounds like you are making the right choice for both you and him. I think you've tried everything possible and more than most people would have done.


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## SheetsSM

I'm sorry there was no "fix" for your golden but you have done everything under the sun to make him well. I do hope with time that you are able to welcome another golden into your home.


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## hvgoldens4

My heart breaks for you both....yes, you have done everything humanly possible to help him and give him a good life. You have gone above and beyond what many people would go through and I applaud all your efforts.

Most dogs who behave in his fashion aren't truly agressive-they are reacting to their environment, which they see as threatening. Having this knowledge doesn't make it any easier. Nor, does the fact that yes, every now and again these things do happen where for some reason the "hard wiring" just isn't right. We had a dog we had taken in as a rescue like this. My heart goes out to you. I also applaud you for having the strength to do what is best for the dog. No dog can be happy living like that.....


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## nolefan

My heart goes out to you, your whole family and your poor boy. You have nothing but my respect and admiration for using every resource within your grasp to save your dog. Clearly your last choice is the only one left and is the best thing to do for the dog and for the safety of everyone involved. I am wishing peace and comfort to you all. 

I agree with Sheets, I hope that in time you will be back to us here. Please know we wish you all the best.


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## laprincessa

I'm so sorry to read this. Thank you for all you did for him, most people would have given up a long time ago. Take some comfort in the knowledge that you did your best, and that he'll be happier running free at the Bridge, no longer fearful.


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## OutWest

You went so far beyond what many people would have done. I'm so sorry there was no solution. I know it's going to hurt to put him down, but it _is_ the best decision, based on all the expert help you've gotten. 

I hope you'll come back to "Golden land" and get a healthy puppy soon that will help your family heal from all this trouble.


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## GinnyinPA

I'm so sorry you had to make this decision. It must be really hard, but it sounds like it was a necessary one. You did all you could.


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## mylissyk

I am so terribly sorry this is the outcome. You truley did do everything in your power to help him. Living life in the state of fear he does is not life, you are making a decision in his very best interests, though I know that does not make it any easier.

You have my support and best wishes. I sincerely hope you will allow yourself to find that family companion you wanted.


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## solinvictus

HoundSnout,

Thank you so much for coming back and giving us your news. I want to also thank you for truly going the whole mile and then some to attempt to solve your dogs problems. This wasn't the outcome I was hoping for but you now know that you have done everything possible for your pup to have a normal life. It doesn't make your decision any easier but you have to do what is safest for your family and those that would interact with your family. Living each day in torment and fear isn't a life of quality. Please accept my sincere condolences on the choices you have to make. I do hope that over time you can continue to share both your joy and pain on the forum and in the process maybe help others that have to go through this.


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## Ljilly28

It's very brave and honest to share this outcome, and I am so sorry about it.


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## jaxdepo

I agree with everyone to take him to the vet. My husbands family use to have a dog who was never perfect but grew into a very aggressive dog. I remember visiting the house and they would crate him so I could quickly scurry to the basement and we would have to warn if we were coming back upstairs. He was very very violent.... turns out he was extremely sick and in constant pain..... I hope this is not the case for your friend, I just hope you rule out all possibilities before making any major and permanent decisions....


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## *Laura*

HoundSnout - how terribly sad for you. I'm so sorry


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## Selli-Belle

HoundSnout, I am very sorry to hear about your boy. You did the kindest thing you could, due to some something completely out of your control or his control, he was a very unhappy dog and you gave his peace.


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## Finn's Fan

Houndsnout, my heartfelt condolences on the loss of your boy. It was a great kindness to release him from a life of total stress. Please don't give up on the breed. Your family deserves a happy canine, and the vast majority of goldens fit that bill, as you know from your previous angel.


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## jaxdepo

I'm very sorry for your pain. You have to do what is best, stay strong and remember the good times. hugs


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## kimberlygino

i suggest you should read up the book The Complete Herbal Handbook for The Dog and Cat by world renown herbalist Juliette de Bairacli Levy.


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## Buddy's mom forever

I am very, very sorry, I truly believed it could have better outcome. You did all you could, there was nothing left to do.


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## Jersey's Mom

It breaks my heart to read this. I never saw this thread until now and as I went through it, I was so hopeful for you and your boy that things would work out once you seemed to have turned the corner with a diagnosis and treatment. You did everything possible (and then some) to try and give him some quality of life, but in the end this world is just too scary for him. 

As hard as this outcome is for you and your family to face, please realize that you are giving him a gift out of love and compassion. You've shown him more love than most people would have been capable of throughout this situation and now you are giving him freedom from the never-ending panic he feels. When he reaches the Bridge, he will be able to run and play, free from these demons, for the first time. Please don't think you have failed him, because you've done anything but. 

I'll be thinking of you and your family, your sweet dog included. I hope you are all able to find peace and that someday you and your family will be able to take another dog into your home and into your hearts. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## 3 goldens

I am so sorry you had to do this. But you did the right thing by him. He was not happy and was as miserable as a dog in physical pain You released him form all that and I think you forthat.


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## desilu

I am so sorry to hear this news and even sorrier for your loss. I, too, am convinced that you did everything you could to give your boy a happy life. Please be at ease that he is now no longer afraid.


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## Rhapsody in Gold

HoundSnout, I am so sorry. We also put our Shepherd down and looking back, we know we made the right decision. Like you, we searched every where for answers. After our Shepherd was gone, we would have days where we wondered if we maybe could have tried something else. I was so invested in trying to save him that I was still researching the problem even after he was gone. Eventually I was able to accept our loss and see clearly how dangerous our situation had become. I wish you peace and comfort at this time.


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## Duke's My Dog

I am very sorry.........but you did everything and more than most people would do for your dog.


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## Sally's Mom

This makes me so sad. I believe there are dogs out there with " screws loose". I hope you find 
one with the normal expectations.


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## Sally's Mom

I am so sorry for you. Not typical for golden ownership. All of my best

wishes...


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## Caesar's Buddy

This is so sad.

Pat


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## Phillyfisher

So sorry to see this update. You truly did left no stone unturned. All dogs deserve an owner like you. May you find peace in the actions you took to help your dog. There is a special reunion waiting for you at the bridge....


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## Jessie'sGirl

I applaud you for all that you have done in your efforts to help this dog. My heart aches for you as you have come to your decision. Please do not let this be your last memory of owning a golden. You have been devoted owners. I hope there is a puppy in your future.


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## my4goldens

So very sorry. You did all you could and then some.


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## HoundSnout

It has been 2 weeks since we put Cooper down. Up until yesterday, I was externally OK, too busy being strong for my wife and her repeated daily question of "Did we do the right thing?". However, I was home alone yesterday, and the sense that there was no dog in the house rely hit me hard. (Bruce Springsteen's song 'You're Missing' from the Rising album kept playing in my head. Sure, this is nowhere near as tragic as losing a loved one in 9/11, but there are strong parallels.) I spent a couple of hours watching Golden Retriever videos on YouTube, and wallowing in sadness. But I noticed that Cooper had none of the sweetness of the other dogs in the videos, or of our first Golden, or others I had known. Being so intensely wrapped up in his problems (and subconsciously always on guard for his aggression against us or others), I had actually forgotten about Goldens' true nature and temperament. We had become co-dependent in a sense - and he was a wreck inside. All this confirms that, yes, we did the right thing. However, in spite of his problems, we still loved him so much, and he loved us as much as his biology would allow him. But I'm still sad, and angry with the breeder who defended her genetic lines and blamed us for a lack of training. Gonna have to write her an email soon, send her the diagnosis and 8-page write-up from UPenn, and a picture of his tennis balls still sitting untouched in our back yard.


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


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## Buddy's mom forever

I am very sorry for your loss of Cooper and everything you've been thru. Things happen, we do not know why. It is ok to question, to be sad, upset and angry with everything but remember you loved and you were loved on very special, different way. You did more than many would. God bless you.


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## Cathy's Gunner

I'm so sorry to read about Coopers final days. You were a wonderful family to this boy who had so many problems. I hope that you and your wife will find a new Golden to help you over your loss. There are many great breeders on here that you can contact to find your next Golden when you are ready.....


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## Karen519

*HoundSnout*

HoundSnout

I am SO VERY SORRY to hear about your Copper-thank you for telling us.


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## Rhapsody in Gold

HoundSnout said:


> It has been 2 weeks since we put Cooper down. Up until yesterday, I was externally OK, too busy being strong for my wife and her repeated daily question of "Did we do the right thing?". However, I was home alone yesterday, and the sense that there was no dog in the house rely hit me hard. (Bruce Springsteen's song 'You're Missing' from the Rising album kept playing in my head. Sure, this is nowhere near as tragic as losing a loved one in 9/11, but there are strong parallels.) I spent a couple of hours watching Golden Retriever videos on YouTube, and wallowing in sadness. But I noticed that Cooper had none of the sweetness of the other dogs in the videos, or of our first Golden, or others I had known. Being so intensely wrapped up in his problems (and subconsciously always on guard for his aggression against us or others), I had actually forgotten about Goldens' true nature and temperament. We had become co-dependent in a sense - and he was a wreck inside. All this confirms that, yes, we did the right thing. However, in spite of his problems, we still loved him so much, and he loved us as much as his biology would allow him. But I'm still sad, and angry with the breeder who defended her genetic lines and blamed us for a lack of training. Gonna have to write her an email soon, send her the diagnosis and 8-page write-up from UPenn, and a picture of his tennis balls still sitting untouched in our back yard.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PG Free


When we finally found our breed and our breeder, I said a silent prayer - "please . . . if there is any chance your pups can be aggressive . . . please - - - just don't . . . . we can never go through it again." I was very afraid but our Golden breeder spent time with us and allowed us to meet every single one of his dogs. Today we have three Goldens and I remember saying over and over - - - wow, this is how it is supposed to be. We can go anywhere with them . . . its a wonderful life ♥ I wish this life for you and a Golden, too ♥ You have learned so much from your experience and will be a wonderful owner someday, I think . . . the best ♥


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## fostermom

I am just seeing this update. You did above and beyond what many people would have done. I am so sorry that you have had to go through all the stress and emotionally draining feelings. I truly can understand what you have gone through as I have had a dog who was never right mentally (not a golden) and after 10 years of dealing with her and having her on medications, I had to make the difficult decision to have her put to sleep. It was one of the hardest decisions I have ever had to make. But our whole household benefited from that decision because we weren't under stress 24/7 once she was gone.

I am very sorry.


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## HoundSnout

THE NEXT CHAPTER: Last night, we adopted a 1-year old male from the Delaware Valley Golden Retriever Rescue (DVGRR). After our experience with Cooper and having to put him down in July, we thought we'd take some time. However, we realized that life without a Golden is pale at best. Our new guy, Cody, was caged all day by his prior owners, and only let out for a short period at night. He was neglected - severe ear infection and mange. The prior owners were selling him, and a DVGRR volunteer purchased him (with her own funds) and handed him over to the Rescue. The folks at DVGRR got all the medical stuff under control, and he's now in our home. He's such a kind and gentle dog - and he's going through his "Christmas morning" phase with us. Dozens of toys, a big fenced yard; another 2 acres to fetch balls in; several walks per day; lots of treats and a loving/doting family. We still miss our little Cooper, but we now know just how tormented he was inside, and are hoping he is at peace and running around the Bridge with our first Golden. We are excited for the years ahead with this new guy -- bringing him back to full health, and treating him like the prince he is for the rest of his long life! I know this is redundant, but thanks again to all of you who supported us through the dark times earlier this year. Like the folks at DVGRR, you are all saints.


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## Selli-Belle

Congratulations on your new boy! I wish you many happy years together!


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## GoldenMum

What a wonderful update, I am so happy for you!!!! Many happy years of golden bliss ti you!


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## Hunter'sMom

New beginnings for you and Cody, so happy for all of you! Wishing you all much happiness!!! Please share stories and pictures of Cody as your new chapter continues!


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## solinvictus

Thank you for all you have done in the past for your Cooper and thank you so much for being so willing to love again. I so hope that Cody can help you heal as you help him to become all he can be. I hope you continue to post to the forum on new threads that will belong to you and Cody. As you and Cody settle in we would love to see pictures.


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## Claudia M

HoundSnout said:


> THE NEXT CHAPTER: Last night, we adopted a 1-year old male from the Delaware Valley Golden Retriever Rescue (DVGRR). After our experience with Cooper and having to put him down in July, we thought we'd take some time. However, we realized that life without a Golden is pale at best. Our new guy, Cody, was caged all day by his prior owners, and only let out for a short period at night. He was neglected - severe ear infection and mange. The prior owners were selling him, and a DVGRR volunteer purchased him (with her own funds) and handed him over to the Rescue. The folks at DVGRR got all the medical stuff under control, and he's now in our home. He's such a kind and gentle dog - and he's going through his "Christmas morning" phase with us. Dozens of toys, a big fenced yard; another 2 acres to fetch balls in; several walks per day; lots of treats and a loving/doting family. We still miss our little Cooper, but we now know just how tormented he was inside, and are hoping he is at peace and running around the Bridge with our first Golden. We are excited for the years ahead with this new guy -- bringing him back to full health, and treating him like the prince he is for the rest of his long life! I know this is redundant, but thanks again to all of you who supported us through the dark times earlier this year. Like the folks at DVGRR, you are all saints.


I have just read this thread and I am so sorry for what you and your family went thru. You have done everything in the world for Cooper and I admire your strength, patience and courage. Cody seems like he is in the right hands and has a wonderful family!


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## lgnutah

HoundSnout said:


> THE NEXT CHAPTER: Last night, we adopted a 1-year old male from the Delaware Valley Golden Retriever Rescue (DVGRR). After our experience with Cooper and having to put him down in July, we thought we'd take some time. However, we realized that life without a Golden is pale at best. Our new guy, Cody, was caged all day by his prior owners, and only let out for a short period at night. He was neglected - severe ear infection and mange. The prior owners were selling him, and a DVGRR volunteer purchased him (with her own funds) and handed him over to the Rescue. The folks at DVGRR got all the medical stuff under control, and he's now in our home. He's such a kind and gentle dog - and he's going through his "Christmas morning" phase with us. Dozens of toys, a big fenced yard; another 2 acres to fetch balls in; several walks per day; lots of treats and a loving/doting family. We still miss our little Cooper, but we now know just how tormented he was inside, and are hoping he is at peace and running around the Bridge with our first Golden. We are excited for the years ahead with this new guy -- bringing him back to full health, and treating him like the prince he is for the rest of his long life! I know this is redundant, but thanks again to all of you who supported us through the dark times earlier this year. Like the folks at DVGRR, you are all saints.


This post brought tears to my eyes. I am so happy for your family and for Cody.


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## gold4me

Congratulations on your new addition to your family. You have been through a lot and I know Cooper is now happy and pain free. The best of wishes to Cody and you and your wife. May you have a wonderfully happy golden future together.


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## Goldens R Great

It sounds like you did everything you could for Cooper. What a very tough thing for all of you to go through. 

Thank you for rescuing Cody. I look forward to photos of your new boy!


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## Pixie

I just saw this thread and read your whole story with Cooper. I went from a "that is puppy behavior" in the first threat to realising it could be something more (when you explained the conditions Cooper was been raised) to finally having the confirmation after your appointment at the PU. Can imagine all of this was quite a rollercoster, but you and your familly should feel proud to know you did the best you could for Cooper all the way until the end (could not have been easy for the little guy to live in such a state, always on the edge! And for sure he is now running free and learning to relax). God bless you for having such a big heart.
Big enough to take in another Golden. Cody seems a wonderful boy and I am sure you will share great moments together. I wish you and your familly all the hapinness.


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## nolefan

Your last two posts have moved me to tears. You all have been through so much and I was so afraid that you'd be beaten down by it. I am overjoyed that you and your wife have made the choice to open your hearts to Cody and that he will have the love and home he deserves and that you will have the dog you all need. A house without a dog is so terribly empty, I am so glad that yours has the sound of a thumping tail, bouncing tennis balls and best of all that furry golden head pressed against your knee. 

I hope when you have time you will share some photos of Cody and keep us updated on his adventures. It sounds like you'll be having a lot of fun with him! Wishing you all the best.....
Kristy


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## mylissyk

HoundSnout said:


> THE NEXT CHAPTER: Last night, we adopted a 1-year old male from the Delaware Valley Golden Retriever Rescue (DVGRR). After our experience with Cooper and having to put him down in July, we thought we'd take some time. However, we realized that life without a Golden is pale at best. Our new guy, Cody, was caged all day by his prior owners, and only let out for a short period at night. He was neglected - severe ear infection and mange. The prior owners were selling him, and a DVGRR volunteer purchased him (with her own funds) and handed him over to the Rescue. The folks at DVGRR got all the medical stuff under control, and he's now in our home. He's such a kind and gentle dog - and he's going through his "Christmas morning" phase with us. Dozens of toys, a big fenced yard; another 2 acres to fetch balls in; several walks per day; lots of treats and a loving/doting family. We still miss our little Cooper, but we now know just how tormented he was inside, and are hoping he is at peace and running around the Bridge with our first Golden. We are excited for the years ahead with this new guy -- bringing him back to full health, and treating him like the prince he is for the rest of his long life! I know this is redundant, but thanks again to all of you who supported us through the dark times earlier this year. Like the folks at DVGRR, you are all saints.


This is a beautiful update. I am so happy for you. I hope you will post pictures of Cody and keep us updated on his progress.


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## mylissyk

...and I hope you will go pick up that ball that's been sitting untouched in the yard and throw it for Cody, and see Cooper in your minds eye running along beside him happy and carefree as he should have been. 

Cody is a very lucky dog to have found such a dedicated owner.


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## Buddy's mom forever

mylissyk said:


> ...and I hope you will go pick up that ball that's been sitting untouched in the yard and throw it for Cody, and see Cooper in your minds eye running along beside him happy and carefree as he should have been.
> 
> Cody is a very lucky dog to have found such a dedicated owner.


Mylissyk, you made me cry with your comment.

To the OP congratulations on your new addition to the family. Wish you all the best.


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## Aspen's Mom

Cody is such a lucky Golden, to have been rescued by such dedicated and loving people! Can't wait to see pictures of him.


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## Max's Dad

I just read this thread. I am so happy to see that you have adopted Cody. You did everything you could for Cooper. Please let us know how Cody does in his new home.


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## twillobee

I'm reading this late. So sorry about your boy. It's a hard decision to make. You did everything you could. Glad you were able to bring another boy into your family.

I had a cocker who had rage syndrome. He would be great and all of a sudden, his eyes would glaze and he would attack. Then when done, he would just look dazed. I had him evaluated at the teaching hospital and they said it was common with his breed. They explained it as an infection in the brain and it would swell and cause pain and work like a seizure. I had many trainers out that said because his was not predictable, and normally he was well trained and sweet, he needed to be put down. There wasn't anything I could do, because it was more like brain seizures. I refused to do that at that time and kept working with him to try and get past it. I was always walking a tightrope hoping it wouldn't happen again.

I ended up having to put him down after all because it started coming more often and he started going after the kids in the neighborhood. My daughter was afraid of him (he bit her) and we worried about her friends coming by. He was such a good dog when he didn't have these episodes and loved the groomer.


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## Ljilly28

I love that this thread came back around to a huge happy ending.


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## DogOwner

You and your family have been through so much recently. I wish you much happiness with your new Golden. Bless you.


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## Harleysmum

This is a fantastic story. So glad that it has resurfaced. Giving it another bump!


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