# 17mth old bitch - behaviour?



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

It is hard to say without seeing it. Some of that stuff can be normal, but not always. I would be careful who you let play with your dog and generally dog parks are a bad idea for many reasons. JMO.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I almost have to laugh at this one. If the other dogs are sniffing her rear, and ignoring her signals to stop, I think they are being rude and she is putting them in their place (and maybe going a bit overboard but maybe not).

Is she spayed? If not, she might be coming into season.

If not, and these dogs persist in their rude behavior, I would say find a different area of the park or just stop going to the dog park.

I think this is good reading:

Flying Dog Press - Suzanne Clothier - He Just Wants To Say "Hi!"


----------



## Summer-roo! (Sep 8, 2011)

GoldenSail said:


> It is hard to say without seeing it. Some of that stuff can be normal, but not always. I would be careful who you let play with your dog and generally dog parks are a bad idea for many reasons. JMO.


I usually get Summer to come to me and very rarely let her play. But then when I've explained this to a couple of dog owners they've said they've got to socialise and it's normal dog behaviour.


----------



## Summer-roo! (Sep 8, 2011)

Tahnee GR said:


> I almost have to laugh at this one. If the other dogs are sniffing her rear, and ignoring her signals to stop, I think they are being rude and she is putting them in their place (and maybe going a bit overboard but maybe not).
> 
> Is she spayed? If not, she might be coming into season.
> 
> ...


I can't see her giving signals to stop though. And it's not always when there is rear-end sniffing going on either.
She isn't spayed - yet. That's being booked in next time she comes into season (she's had one season so far and the vet said best wait to the next season and then book her in 8wks from start date).
I do generally walk her in the more remote areas of the park. Not going to the dog park isn't really an option as she needs to run for exercise.
Thanks for the link though, will have a look. I think my inexperience of all things dog doesn't help!


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Summer-roo! said:


> I usually get Summer to come to me and very rarely let her play. But then when I've explained this to a couple of dog owners they've said they've got to socialise and it's normal dog behaviour.


And see that's the problem with dog parks. You can't control who brings their dogs nor how well behaved and trained the dogs are. So while you may manage your dog well, not everyone else will. To top it off not everyone at these parks understands good dog etiquette or even dog behavior--classifying normal behavior as abnormal, or abnormal behavior as normal. 

So if your dog is snipping at rude dogs it may offend other owners when really she has a right to tell other dogs off. Conversely, if she is inappropriately snipping at other dogs and the owners don't mind it still isn't fair to their dogs (or a good idea to let her practice the behavior). 

Instead of letting her socialize with just any dog that might come to this park, I personally would hand pick stable dogs that you know she gets along with.


----------



## Summer-roo! (Sep 8, 2011)

GoldenSail said:


> And see that's the problem with dog parks. You can't control who brings their dogs nor how well behaved and trained the dogs are. So while you may manage your dog well, not everyone else will. To top it off not everyone at these parks understands good dog etiquette or even dog behavior--classifying normal behavior as abnormal, or abnormal behavior as normal.
> 
> So if your dog is snipping at rude dogs it may offend other owners when really she has a right to tell other dogs off. Conversely, if she is inappropriately snipping at other dogs and the owners don't mind it still isn't fair to their dogs (or a good idea to let her practice the behavior).
> 
> Instead of letting her socialize with just any dog that might come to this park, I personally would hand pick stable dogs that you know she gets along with.


I don't walk with anyone else and we don't have other dogs she socialises with. I feel that is part of the problem. We have been to 3 different types of training since she was a pup. One was in a hall in the evening and all she wanted to do was flop on the floor. We had 3 different trainers out of four sessions, with the new trainer not knowing what had happened before, and no dog/dog interaction so I left feeling we were going nowhere fast. Then a couple of months later we went to a recommended outdoor training group and Summer was praised as being the dog who loves everyone. I remember being worried when she played with a spaniel but they said she was fine. The group only lasted 6wks.

Then on walking Summer at the dog park (it's a huge country park with a ranger, not just a field by the way) we met some other Goldie owners who recommended a trainer (qualified behaviourist with 20+yrs experience). So we went to him, but again it's all on lead and no dog/dog interaction. When Summer approached and growled at another dog the trainer shouted at her and said I needed to be firmer. But in light of the article above, is that even right to do? Could I have missed a cue where the other dog had approached mine?

So Summer has missed out I feel on socialisation with other dogs. I've tried to find a local dog walking/socialisation group and can find nothing local. I contacted the ranger at the park - no groups that she knows of.

So with my lack of dog experience on picking up body language and no other known dogs to interact with is I feel not helping at all!


----------



## crazy daisy (Jul 3, 2011)

sniffing at the bottom is normal dog greeting behavior. There might be some insecurity issue with your dog... which escalates in the quick snapping back and growling.

the chasing and growling... some dogs just do that when they play,.

when dogs are checking her out, what position is her tail? In between the legs?


----------



## GinnyinPA (Oct 31, 2010)

Ben does the same sort of thing. He was not socialized as a puppy, by all the evidence. He is fine with small dogs, just lies down low to greet them and will make playful gestures. With big dogs he is much more wary, especially with males. When he greets a large dog, they will start sniffing and frequently all of a sudden, teeth are bared and growls are heard and they go for each other's throats. We pull the dogs apart (these greetings have always been while the dogs were leashed) and there were no further signs of aggression on either side. I haven't been able to figure out who starts it, but since it has happened several times, I'm assuming that Ben is the instigator, at least at times. so who is being rude? I can't tell if Ben is being rude or awkward, or if the is putting another dog in its place that he considers rude. Or maybe it's just left over testosterone? With females, and especially yellow labs, he is more likely to just make play gestures, though the play rarely lasts very long. It's funny, because he wants to play, and wants to greet, but when he does, it seems to go badly much too often. We've tried dog parks a few times, and have had no bad experiences there with him off leash, but neither does he get into the spirit of the play very often. Usually he just wanders the perimeter and sniffs the fence, or engages the small dogs on the other side. But when we pass the entrance to the dog park, he always wants to go in.


----------



## Summer-roo! (Sep 8, 2011)

crazy daisy said:


> sniffing at the bottom is normal dog greeting behavior. There might be some insecurity issue with your dog... which escalates in the quick snapping back and growling.
> 
> the chasing and growling... some dogs just do that when they play,.
> 
> when dogs are checking her out, what position is her tail? In between the legs?


Her tail is up sometimes with what I call a lazy wag when other dogs approach her. If she and another dog meet at the the same time (ie both approaching) there is usually the side-on mutual greeting with sniffing. 

However we try and avoid other dogs as much as possible, and if I do see any approaching I will get Summer to come to me so I can hold her by the collar or put the lead back on. Of course my worry there is she will feel restricted and react due to that.


----------



## crazy daisy (Jul 3, 2011)

some say..... your anxiety can translate directly into summer... there's no problem taking precaution by leading the lead back on, but you should try to feel relaxed and confident that nothing is going to happen


----------



## Summer-roo! (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks Carzy Daisy, but I'm not confident. Sometimes I think it's me that needs the training LOL!

Anyway, success in that there is a local dog walking group who meet to socialise dogs so I'm going to look to try that out. Also the Ranger replied saying she would also email the other dog club members (the Country Park has it's own dog club, 500 members strong so far) asking if anyone fancied meeting up to walk.


----------



## Aislinn (Nov 13, 2010)

You might want to look at some books that will help you with understanding a dog's body language. For example, putting their front feet on another dogs shoulders is showing dominance. Where and how the tail is held, the head, can all give you clues.


----------



## Summer-roo! (Sep 8, 2011)

Can anyone recommend any books I can get in the UK? I do have quite a few but nothing that defines behaviour.

I am currently ploughing my way through [ame]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Defence-Dogs-Why-Need-Understanding/dp/1846142954[/ame]

Have a puppy book by 



 and several dog books Best of Breed RSPCA New Complete Dog Training but these don't seem to have much on behaviour.


----------



## crazy daisy (Jul 3, 2011)

us yanks, on Animal Planet get a show called "It's me or the Dog" with Victoria Stilwell. I guess it's Channel 4 in the UK.

It features positive dog training to help owners with issues with their dogs.

It's a stark constrast to Cesar Milan's show, Dog Whisperer. I'm not a big fan of his method of correction, but does reveal details on body language and how we, the humans, 99% of time are the source of the dog issues itself.

both have books.


----------



## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

At 17 months, she is starting to reach emotional maturity, the age when social/dog-dog problems start appearing and a lack of socialization at a younger age can add to social issues as she matures. In essence, she is unsure of what proper interaction is and it scares her so she behaves aggressively to get the other dog to back off. 

Yes, it is appropriate for a female dog to tell off a dog who is being rude about sniffing, but typically that is telling off a pushy male dog. Telling another female off is about dominance.

Your apprehension is adding to her uncertainty. My advice is to get back into training big time to raise her and your confidence. Agility is a great way to get her exercise, boost her confidence and teach her that other dogs are safe to be around without having to establish a dominance hierarchy. Rally or obedience are also great for teaching confidence, but most dog instinctively take to agility due to the whole running thing.

Good Luck!


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Again, I would be really careful about who you let her socialize with. Do not put her in a situation where she is uncomfortable and likely to react. You do not want her to practice those behaviors because aggression can escalate very quickly.

Selli is right...she is at that age where it has been shown that aggression will start to surface. Social maturity. It may or may not be a lack of socialization. Training and boosting her confidence is really good advice. Make sure you do not put her in a situation where she is likely to be fearful and/or react. Protect your dog too...do not let strange dogs run up to her.

I haven't seen the video so I can't attest to it or not, but this may be a good resource from Patricia McConnell, Dog-Dog Aggression.


----------



## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

I too have a bitch the same age as yours. We have two other Goldens here including her mum, so I think she's had a head start with doggy manners.

When your girl was younger, did you allow her to run off lead with any other dogs? It could be if you are worried about her getting hurt or just generally worried about other dogs, this has rubbed off on her. It's very true that your anxiety will go straight to the dog. Are you particularly tense when you meet certain breeds for example? It's also true that this could quickly become a learned behaviour, but it isn't too late to turn it around.

Have you spoken to her breeder about this? I'm thinking if they're not too far away, they might give you some practical help and advice to help you and her. Hopefully they're interested in the dogs they've bred and will be eager to help.

She is probably also heading towards her second season. At what age did she have her first? Bitches smell very "interesting" for quite a few weeks before their actual season. Their behaviour also changes and they quite often become more irritable. Are the dogs being more insistent at sniffing her rear end at the moment? Also, other bitches will be interested as well as males. It's an intoxicating aroma!!

I've got to say it sounds like she needs lots more socialisation, her bullying behaviour is probably a self defence mechanism. Unfortunately, she may do this to another dog who won't take it and a fight will occur. 

Personally, although I don't have problems with mine and other dogs when we're out, I wouldn't hesitate to step in straight away should anything kick off. Not being there to see your girl and her reactions, it's really difficult to advise tbh, as you may well be missing triggers.

Have you considered contacting a behavourist? A certified behaviourist would be able to observe both of you, and would be able to give a much more in depth analysis of what's going on. Might be worth a try? Our local training classes had a special socialisation class on a Saturday morning held in an open field with special "well balanced" training dogs. Something like this would also be beneficial. 

This may help as a starting point:
http://www.apbc.org.uk/help/regions/area/kent

I hope you manage to find a solution, it must be miserable for you both...


----------



## Summer-roo! (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks everyone.

The Ranger at the park has forwarded me contact details of a group who meet to socialise dogs and train too in an enclosed training area of the park. This is what I've put on their form which outlines the different training we've been to:
*Trainer 1* - 4wks in Jan/Feb 2011. Obedience taught in hall in local hall (sit, stay, wait and walking to heel). Stopped going as it was inconsistent with 3 different trainers in 4 sessions. Summer also just laid on the floor most of the time as it was a 7.30pm session.
*Trainer 2* – 6wks in April/May 2011. Recommended by a friend. Obedience and socialisation. Outdoors in a field Sat mornings. Summer was noted as the dog who loved everyone, people and dogs. She wanted to play a lot. Had no worries on socialisation at this point and felt I needed to focus on obedience afterwards - recall in particular.
*Trainer 3* – 6wks Sep-Dec 2011 – was intermittent as Summer came into season in Oct. Summer was showing signs of ball possession which was why I contacted them after a recommendation. At this point Summer seemed to be easily distracted by other dogs. No dog socialisation, purely obedience (sit, stay, wait and walking to heel). Focus on KC Good Citizen scheme. We did not address the ball possession issue.

As soon as she had her jabs we were out with her, meeting people and dogs. We never had any problems. She was once bitten by a Jack Russel (on her muzzle) but that did not seem to affect her as she was OK with dogs (incl Jack Russels) after and played well, on and off lead. I used to laugh as leads often got tangled with other dogs and owners. As she headed towards her 1st birthday we used a ball to give her more exercise and she got ball possessive (and that was my first ever post on here in Sep). Stopped using the ball and she was fine. Then our vet said she was putting on weight - we checked her food was the right amount - and hubby said she needed to run more and resurrected the ball. Both he and my mum have said Summer's attitude is fine. She is fine with older dogs, but young ones she tends to chase and growl at if they approach her after the initial sniffing. And it's not consistent, it's not every young dog.

Agility I would love to do, and found a local class run in the evening, but I can't do that time as I have two kids and hubby not home from work by then.

The breeders (husband and wife) I am friends with on Facebook but one recently died so I am loathe to contact her. 

I think I will try this socialisation class and see what they say, whether it's play (incl dominance play) or not. At least I will feel like I'm doing something.

Thanks again an I'll update on here as and when. x


----------



## Darenka (Jan 18, 2012)

Summer-roo! said:


> Thanks Carzy Daisy, but I'm not confident. Sometimes I think it's me that needs the training LOL!
> 
> Anyway, success in that there is a local dog walking group who meet to socialise dogs so I'm going to look to try that out. Also the Ranger replied saying she would also email the other dog club members (the Country Park has it's own dog club, 500 members strong so far) asking if anyone fancied meeting up to walk.


Of course it's you that needs the training, but that's true with most of us so don't feel bad or inadequate.  Every dog is a new experience so that learning/training curve begins a new every time. Dogs will do different things to let you know they are stressed or annoyed. I have one that goes nearly completely still, and another that shifts weight from paw to paw and breaths more quickly but shallow. It helps a lot though if you know or can recognize general base line dog postures and behavior. I like both these books:

Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide: Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog: Amazon.co.uk: Brenda Aloff: 9781929242351: Books







Rugaas book is short, can be read in a hour maybe, but take the time to study the pictures and think about them. While they both have some training information, they are primarily pictorial books to help you 'SEE' and identify dog postures. Being able to speak 'doglish' helps enormously in building your confidence and understanding what Summer is trying to tell you.

As you've found out, not all trainers, classes, etc.. are created equally. Other posters have mentioned McConnell and Clothier, both of whom I really like by the way. Neither has a training book per se-- but they both will offer valuable insight about dogs, and humans.... I suspect reading them would further build up your confidence in understanding doglish.


----------

