# Such a horrible first night



## Figtoria (Apr 19, 2016)

Jupiter and I had our first Basic Novice last night and I was ready to quit about half way through it.

I'm so disheartened.

Some background. I haven't trained for 25 years, but back then I was very involved in the sport and trained my own dog (an English Bull Terrier) up to Utility. He also had some Schutzhund degrees. I trained with many different clubs and worked as a trainer, too.

Flash forward to today - I'm totally new to the "positive" training methods. It's been working relatively well with Jupiter so far. We did very well with both our Puppy and our Advanced Puppy classes. But as he has grown (73lbs now!) heeling has become more and more of an issue.

There are no high value treats enough to keep him at my side when there are other dogs to sniff, leap towards and investigate.

I'm not as young as i was 25 years ago and I come home from class broken and battered - physically and mentally.

It's so embarrassing being >that< lady, dragged all over the ring.

He's really smart and so quick to learn. His other exercises are awesome for his age (10 months). He does long sits, down, finishes, recalls all beautifully. 

But heeling is going to kill me.

It's particularly frustrating because I feel like if I had been able to work in class with a slip collar on him, I could have conquered this when he was 30 pounds lighter. I'm feeling kind of angry and resentful about this, too.


Thank you for listening to my rant. 

I've never liked Haltis, but I found myself thinking about them last night. But is it possible to train with a Halti and transition to a regular collar for competition?

Am I asking too much of a young dog?

Should I just give up and be happy to have such a wonderful little guy as a pet and forget competing?


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

If it helps to know this, my first golden, Ruby, was an absolute hellion in class. She disrupted every single puppy class - she was "that dog", the one that ran away at every opportunity, wrestled with other dogs, had to be herded into corners to catch her ... for the nail-cutting session, she howled as if we were chopping off her feet. After the five-week session, I was absolutely sure I'd never be able to do anything with her.

We persevered. Made our way through basic obedience, took the Canine Good Citizen class four times, became the only team in the history of the training school to fail the test where the dog has to run past bowls of chicken on a recall ...

We still persevered. And one day, it all clicked into place. She won three provincial agility championships and one national championship.

Don't give up. Positive training methods produce wonderful long-term results. It's worth committing to them, not only for the end result, but also because of what they do for your relationship with your dog.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I totally feel your pain! My last golden had to teach me how to learn a better way of training and it was really hard to play games vs. the hard core demand training of years past. 

As far as healing I found something on the internet that kept me from pulling my hair out. I got a tin box (or inverted large water bowl works) and taught her to "place" which meant putting her front paws on the box. She figured this out in just a few tries. At first have them be facing you with feet on box and each time they move their bottoms mark the moment and reward. After just a couple of days we could move around the box in either direction. Then you stand beside them and continue the process. This was far more effective than old school healing. By the time they figure out the position going in a straight line is easy. When you get to the point where they must do a recall and return to heel position all you have to do is give the heel command (vs. come) and they run and get into position.

We basically taught her that heal is a location not an action. Search youtube for k9 connection to watch the video. So we learned position which made pivots really easy. I never went in a straight line until she totally understood that heal meant to get in this position. The rest is easy after this.

I tried this method on my current girl and she doesn't have the same focus to play the game. So having to put a tennis ball under my arm and as soon as she is in position and looking up at me I drop the ball. Training this girl is far more tedious but I'm determined!

Good luck and hope this helps, I remember the frustration well.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Right after getting my last girl (at 11 months) I attended a Bridget Carlsen seminar... take a look at this youtube video. This is what inspired me to change the way I train. 

teaching Saucy8 months old about turns AVI (I did a search on Bridget Carlsen) 

Watching her dogs heel is truly awesome. I never achieved this level but we got close. She made my girl heel like this basically tell me the problem was me!


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## Figtoria (Apr 19, 2016)

Thanks so much for your encouragement. I've been watching videos today and I will try the "place" method. 

I also checked out Bridget Carlsen. What a bouncy puppy! It does look nice when it's all put together.

Any ideas for what to do in class, when he ignores the treats when something else is more exciting? The lunging is going to dislocate my shoulder one of these days...


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## Lucy222 (Aug 15, 2016)

I'm going to chime in here because I definitely feel your pain. Lucy is such a smart girl as well and the majority of the time so well mannered too. But she just gets SO distracted sometimes and, like you, there is no treat high value enough to keep her attention on me. We came a long way in our beginner obedience class, but have had to take a break from classes as the intermediate class conflicted with a university class that I'm taking this semester. As she's grown into herself (64 pounds now) pulling, dragging, yanking on the leash has become a big problem. I'm not a huge person either but I seem to manage.. barely. And I don't trust her with anyone else: my mother-in-law wanted to take her on a short walk a few weeks ago and ended up doing a face plant when Lucy saw a snowman she needed to say hi to - yes, a SNOWMAN! *facepalm* I was horrified!! I'm finding myself more and more frustrated when I return from our walks.

I'm currently using an easywalk harness. Just last week I tried a martingale collar instead because she seems to be immune to the easywalk at this point. The martingale worked for about a day until she realized it really wasn't all that bad to pull on it (she was perfectly happy trying to DRAG me to greet our neighbour, smell a leaf, etc) and I felt like my sharp tugs for corrections were becoming too excessive so I've switched back to my easywalk harness - so total fail on the martingale collar. I too am wondering if training aids like a halti can help to eventually transfer to collar training skills. I really would like to train up to the higher levels of obedience, but I don't think we can do that using an easywalk or halti.. things are not looking very promising for our obedience career right now. Here to soak up any knowledge that arrives in this thread!


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

The last time I actually attended a class was back in the 1970's and things are way different now. So my suggestions are from very out of the box methods from the seminar and watching youtube. My favorites are Connie Cleveland, her husband Pat Nolan & Bridget Carlsen. 

You might ask the instructor if you could try working with toys if that's your dogs favorite thing? I'm sure the instructor will have some good ideas. Heeling is so boring so kept a (cloth) frisbee in my back pocket or bounced a tennis ball to get their attention, they only got the toy when they gave me a few feet of correct heeling. I also had VERY hungry dogs before training 

I did my focus training in places like HomeDepot or outside the dog park fence. Figured if we could get focus there we could focus anywhere. I never spent more than 5 or 10 minutes... actually after getting their focus several times with distractions we would leave. They got their jackpot reward and did it again later in the day. Rewards varied with the dogs but usually a tennis ball toss was enough.

Trying to get away from the prong collar jerk method was a really hard concept for me but watching a dog enjoy working was an eye opener. Trying to find a way to set them up for success takes lots of patience and creativity. Sounds like you are in a great class, perfect place to work on focus under the guidance of an instructor.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

If you want to be truly +R, and none of the trainers listed here are, you might want to look into Denise Fenzi and her FDSA Online Training School as well as the trainers that train in her organization. I know a ton of people who go through Hannah Brannigan's (also and FDSA instructor) Skillbuilding, Sue Ailsby's Levels the TEAM classes and/or a lot of the foundation heeling, retrieving, shaping, etc. classes so their dogs are solid BEFORE they head into a group training class. The key is creating very solid foundation behaviors, good habits and building a lot of reward into these behaviors so that the dog chooses to work with you instead of doing other things. But that is the simplified version, for sure. One of the basics of +R is engagement and motivation and for that, you really need to have some control of your environment. It's not an easy concept and I could never explain it as well as the trainers do, but Fenzi has some great books in her Dog Sports series that may help.

Hang in there! It does get easier.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

I will also chime in. My now, almost 5 year old, was also a hellion in class. He was really embarrassing!!! I would think the same as you "is all of this worth it or should we just scrap obedience".

Training the exercises novice through utility was the easy part. He could perform 90% of utility by the time he was 18 months old. 

However, the area that I neglected to concentrate on was the foundation for all performance sports, that being "focus and engagement". He was very capable of doing everything I asked at home but the minute we left the basement or yard, all bets were off. I had to go back to square one and start over with focus and engagement. I enrolled in a few of Denise Fenzi's classes which I found to be okay. He did great and was a very willing participant but I could not, and still can't, get him to focus and enjoy being in the ring. 

I would suggest you and Jupiter go back to basics and really concentrate on the focus and engagement aspects of training. You may also have to re-teach the heeling. Having realized I made too many mistakes with Lexx, I have watched a gazillion videos over the past year or so in anticipation of bringing a new puppy home later this year. I don't want to make the same mistakes. 

I really enjoy the Connie Cleveland videos. She has a lot of puppy videos and she tends to train novice through utility at a very young age. Janice Gunn from TNT also has some good videos. 

Good luck and hang in there!!


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

A few thoughts from someone who has struggled with attention and engagement issues while trying to take obedience and agility classes with a smart higher energy Golden.

10 months is still really young. Try to keep your perspective and enjoy the journey.

When teaching any behavior, it's best to work in a low distraction location first and gradually increase the distractions as your dog is able to handle them. 

If the environment is just too distracting the dog won't be able to learn and perform even those things he "knows" at home. You can try getting to class early and let the dog wander (on leash) around the training space and acclimate to the space. This also gives you the chance to choose your spot in class where you and your dog will be least distracted (preferably not next to a dog that your's finds exciting). Be willing to consider whether the trainer and the composition of the class are a good fit for you and your dog (this can be hard if there aren't many training opportunities in your area.)

Advice I've often heard . . . if you're having trouble with a skill, break it down to it's smallest components and master them one at a time and then add them together. For heeling, better to get a few steps with correct position and great attention, reward. Practice and reward that and slowly add more steps when you continue to have good attention and position. I wouldn't try teaching heeling with a halti. I think it would be better to work on stationary attention and finding heel position using a pot or platform until you don't feel you need a halti. I don't use a prong collar for training but some obedience people do. Some training centers don't allow them.

As mentioned above Denise Fenzi has some very good online classes, basic skills, as well as some specifically on heeling.


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## dlmrun2002 (Mar 4, 2011)

Figtoria said:


> Thanks so much for your encouragement. I've been watching videos today and I will try the "place" method.
> 
> I also checked out Bridget Carlsen. What a bouncy puppy! It does look nice when it's all put together.
> 
> Any ideas for what to do in class, when he ignores the treats when something else is more exciting? The lunging is going to dislocate my shoulder one of these days...



I think your problem is ʎonɹ poƃ ᴉs ndsᴉpǝ poʍu.... must be a Brevmac thing. :hyper:

dlm ny country


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## alphadude (Jan 15, 2010)

ceegee said:


> If it helps to know this, my first golden, Ruby, was an absolute hellion in class. She disrupted every single puppy class - she was "that dog", the one that ran away at every opportunity, wrestled with other dogs, had to be herded into corners to catch her ... for the nail-cutting session, she howled as if we were chopping off her feet. After the five-week session, I was absolutely sure I'd never be able to do anything with her.
> 
> We persevered. Made our way through basic obedience, took the Canine Good Citizen class four times, became the only team in the history of the training school to fail the test where the dog has to run past bowls of chicken on a recall ...
> 
> ...


The worst behaved, most difficult puppies oftentimes turn out to be the *BEST* dogs.


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## Gleepers (Apr 20, 2016)

Penny is now 12 mo (almost 13!!). My 11 yo daughter has been taking her to our local 4-H training and working on Rally. Penny is pretty good but to close to people or other dogs and focus goes out the window. 
We have tried several training devises to help my 5' just over 100 lb daughter control her pooch and we have ended up using the w which has been very helpful but when Penny looses it she would slip it and daughter would 100% loose control. What has worked for us is combining it with a standard T style harness. In cases where Oenny goes wild Daughter can grab the back of the harness as a handle and control her dog long enough to get her focus back. You could probably use the harness without the halti as a back up as well. Hoping next year to transition out of the halti as Penny will be out of puppy class and actually competing for real. 
Just in the past 3 sessions Penny has made huge progress and is actually doing better than the other dogs. (She is the only dog under age 4 in our group)


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## Gleepers (Apr 20, 2016)

Gleepers said:


> and we have ended up using the w which has been very helpful but when Penny looses it she would slip it and daughter would 100% loose control. )


Halti not w. 
Not sure why that didn't type correctly and figure out how to get it to edit.


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## Figtoria (Apr 19, 2016)

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say about Brevmac.

He isn't hyper at all. 99% of the time he is laid back, calm and amenable to everything. 

It's only in dog class that he is challenging.

He is otherwise delightful in every way.








dlmrun2002 said:


> I think your problem is ʎonɹ poƃ ᴉs ndsᴉpǝ poʍu.... must be a Brevmac thing. :hyper:
> 
> dlm ny country


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## dlmrun2002 (Mar 4, 2011)

Sorry...No offense to Brevmac. It was meant as a joke. I was making light of your dog being upside down in the photo... like some of the text too. I plan on visiting Brevmac soon as I start looking north for a new dog. They have a superb line of Goldens. I asked you once before who your breeder was.. remember? Your dog looks great......


dlm ny country


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## KKaren (Oct 29, 2014)

Figtoria said:


> Jupiter and I had our first Basic Novice last night and I was ready to quit about half way through it.
> 
> I'm so disheartened.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to add a note of encouragement. You'll get there, I think a large part of it is age. It sounds like your boy has a wonderful personality, he's smart and is certainly going to grow into a good partner to enjoy competition. 

My Glimmer (almost 2 years) is very high energy. For us, I find that the first class of a new session is always hard for her and depending on the night, even in classes we have been in, the first 10 minutes is a little out of control. 

I've trained at 5 different places. I move around because sometime I can't get a class for her on a night that I have open. One of the schools I was at last summer was a bit more ..... hmmmm I'll say formal.... and I got some looks of concern/ frowns from some of the regulars because she was really challenged by the set up. The rings were really small so it was hard to get any space for her to be able to focus on me and then the class right next to us was very advanced where there was a lot of off leash work that excited her because she would see dogs running by. 

By the 3rd class they all like Glimmer because they could see we were working very hard on her behavior and that she is smart and willing. 

I'm sure that after a few classes they will be supporting you and Jupiter!

Your statement about the collar is something that I have thought about as well.



Figtoria said:


> "It's particularly frustrating because I feel like if I had been able to work in class with a slip collar on him, I could have conquered this when he was 30 pounds lighter. I'm feeling kind of angry and resentful about this, too."


I come from a different background, more with farm animals, so positive only training is new to me. In general I view the choice of collar similar to the choice of a bit with a horse...where you want to have a collar that allows you to use light hands to communicate with your dog but to keep him/her under control and safe for you and others. 

Two of the schools that I have been at require a flat collar, that is the requirement of my current school. I have used other collars at other places. 

I also always pick up Chick-fil-A nuggets for treats before every class


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

So are you *wanting* to train "positive only" or are you simply finding yourself in a class that goes by that way of thinking?
If you've simply just found yourself in this environment and are now having second thoughts, just find another class.
I personally think it's cruel for an obedience instructor to require novice trainers with large, boisterous puppies to suffer through a class getting their arms yanked off all because they don't believe doggie should ever feel an ounce of discomfort. Meanwhile the owners go home frustrated and hurting. Ummmm....pure positive for WHO?!
If you like your instructor and want to stay with their methods, maybe private lessons would be a better fit until the dog is better trained. Yes, if you just stick with it in a class environment, eventually the dog will catch on and be somewhat better at heeling, but they also will have LOTS of practice at being a crazy animal in a class setting. Dogs repeat what you practice most, and at the moment it sounds like he's practicing more pulling, lunging and ignoring you than anything else.
Best of luck.


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## Figtoria (Apr 19, 2016)

Around here - Greater Toronto Area - there's no other choices.

Thanks for the encouragement - I agree with you totally! 

I moved to a later class, with fewer dogs. I'm hoping that will help.

Thank you all for your stories and ideas. I really appreciate the encouraging words.

I guess we won't give up yet. 






K9-Design said:


> So are you *wanting* to train "positive only" or are you simply finding yourself in a class that goes by that way of thinking?
> If you've simply just found yourself in this environment and are now having second thoughts, just find another class.
> I personally think it's cruel for an obedience instructor to require novice trainers with large, boisterous puppies to suffer through a class getting their arms yanked off all because they don't believe doggie should ever feel an ounce of discomfort. Meanwhile the owners go home frustrated and hurting. Ummmm....pure positive for WHO?!
> If you like your instructor and want to stay with their methods, maybe private lessons would be a better fit until the dog is better trained. Yes, if you just stick with it in a class environment, eventually the dog will catch on and be somewhat better at heeling, but they also will have LOTS of practice at being a crazy animal in a class setting. Dogs repeat what you practice most, and at the moment it sounds like he's practicing more pulling, lunging and ignoring you than anything else.
> Best of luck.


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

For what it's worth, he might just need some time to mature before he stops that pulling behavior. Kaizer could walk loose leash in most places except for our training school when he was around your boy's age (aka March 2016 - he was 9 months old). He just got so excited when he saw the building that all his manners went out the window. We stopped going to classes for an unrelated reason, but started our first agility class early last month (21 months). It was so so so much better. Kaizer wasn't yanking on me at all, he was walking perfectly on his leash. His focus was so-so, especially that first class, but I've found that arriving 10-15 minutes early and letting him sniff around really helps him get his bearings and translates to better focus during class. I can't say if it was just maturation or the extra training (we went on two roadtrips last summer to highly populated cities so he got a lot of practice) or a combination of both, but it does get better.


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## Figtoria (Apr 19, 2016)

Thank Aesthetic, that's a great point. This training club doesn't run classes in the summer, so I figure I'll work him myself over that time and hopefully age will be on his side when we start again in September.


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## Kel Carter (Apr 27, 2018)

Echo Lurie and the Z's. Also, don't recommend harnesses or halti. Just controls their head and not sure there is retention. Have seen many dogs tails stop wagging when they see a halti!

Keep it short. Only the first couple of steps to begin. Connie Cleveland, Janice Gunn. Hannah Brannigan all good. 

Have a box of slip collars that may never see the light of dayagain  

Had a Landseer Newf that had an epiphany when I went to a much higher value treat. He suddenly decided he had attention, lol!

I use Connie Cleveland's method of explaining How Dog's Learn and Corrections. She has some good videos in The Dog Trainer's Workshop.


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