# New to Positive Training... Questions



## khrios (May 5, 2010)

So, I am learning to train Sadie, 7, new to me, using positive reinforcement only. My goal is to have her pass the CGC test. She doesn't know any commands.

I started by watching kikopup's videos and reading Ian Dunbar's puppy book.

I am not using a clicker yet, I just use the word "YES", then treat.

I started by capturing sit, down, go to bed, leave it, and watch...but, I don't know how to add distraction, distance, or duration. and when do I stop using treats?

And what do I do when she makes a mistake, and doesn't do what I asked?

I really want to get it right. Please help.

Ann


----------



## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

I would highly recommend taking at least 1 formal training class.


----------



## khrios (May 5, 2010)

The classes start in April. Until then, I would like to get a head-start...


----------



## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Work on the basics only if just getting a head start. The actual training classes will have distraction, duration, and distance. You are just starting so treats are great for puppy. You can alternate between treats and praise once she learns what you are asking.

Use everyday experiences as mini training sessions. It works great for me.

Buddy gets way more treats at training than he does at home.


----------



## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Distractions are easy. Train in a parking lot or a park/playground. Do everything on leash and dont worry about distance yet. Take her out walking have her work on a sit or a down along the way. It is great to have your dog do all the command in different place that way they dont think they only have to listen at home. I love working my dogs in strange places. I even work them along side the road ( on leash of course).


----------



## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

To build duration: you need to ask for more before you click/yes and treat. The general suggestion, and what has worked best for me, is not to use a linear progression of time. If she's currently getting the yes/treat the instant she performs the behavior, try waiting a moment or two then yes/treat. Once you reliably have a couple seconds, then start to vary it. 5 seconds, 3 seconds, 8 seconds, 4 seconds, 3 seconds, 10 seconds, etc. Try to make it fairly random (not something I'm very good at) so that they never know how long they're going to wait. Then gradually progress the "range" rather than asking for 3 seconds, then 4, then 5, then 6, etc etc. You want to keep them guessing, and every once in a while give them something that's super easy. Even when your range is in the 30 second or more mark, occasionally give them a 5 or 10 second stay just to keep them on their toes. There are better descriptions out there, but I think you can get what I'm trying to say. Handle distance the same way... don't just keep moving further and further away each time you ask for a stay, keep them guessing (though traditional clicker training does not require a stay... the dog is supposed to understand that once you say "sit" for example that he sits until you tell him he's done... but I come from the background of competing in obedience and didn't start as a clicker trainer, so I still have a tendency to use a "stay" command... to each their own). 

You want to build in distraction gradually as well over the next month. Personally, I try not to do a single behavior in a single place for too long or my younger dog can have some trouble generalizing (e.g. I taught him to do a play bow on command - Ta-da! - while on sand because he offered it frequently... after multiple sessions over a day and 1/2 at an agility trial, I couldn't get him to offer it outside of the sandy area. We fixed it, but it would have been quicker if I had asked for it elsewhere quicker I think). So once the dog is reliably offering a behavior in one place, move somewhere slightly more interesting (say the change between your living your and right outside the back door or an empty bedroom and the living room with one person sitting watching tv across the room... minimal distraction) and start again until the dog is offering the behavior reliably... and so on up the chain. But don't move from a secluded bedroom to a shopping center parking lot or playground (for example) and expect that the dog will not miss a beat. 

When it comes to duration, distance and distraction only change one parameter at a time... don't expect the dog to add distance with a new distraction or to hold for the same amount of time when you're 3 feet away as when you're 10 (at first). That doesn't mean you can't include more than one in a single training session, just not on a single repetition (I have a feeling that isn't very clear... I hope you get what I'm trying to say). 

I start substituting in verbal praise and a toy intermittently for treats from the moment the behavior has a name. Food will predominate at first and gradually ween out... though I guess I never completely get rid of it, it could show up at any time, but a lot of the time the dog is only going to get a "good boy" and a good scratch behind the ear for a behavior he knows well. Again, I like to keep my dog guessing. If the dog never gets what he considers a "great" reward (for my golden that's usually a toy, for my mutt it's food, hands down) he may lose interest in performing the activity. 

Hope that helps a little... you'll learn much more in a formal class and it will be easier to get when it's someone working with you and not just words on a screen. Good luck with your dog and the training, and thank you for rescuing!

Julie, Jersey and Oz


----------



## Dubuque dog trainer (Mar 9, 2012)

Clicker trainers use cues, versus commands. You can read a little more about the subject here in an article I wrote. Also see the others on that site about how to get started in clicker training with accompanying video.

A cue is an opportunity for reinforcement whereas a command is an order. If a dog fails to perform correctly, we ignore the behavior. He just doesn't get a click. If the dog fails twice, that's a sign that we need to revisit our training plan.

The time to add the three D's is after your dog is performing the behavior well and reliably. Add distraction first, then duration, then finally distance. Only adjust one parameter at a time, so for example, don't add duration at the same time you add distraction.

Start with low distraction and increase the level of distraction gradually - you will need to know what your particular dog finds distracting.

When you add duration, use a "ping pong" approach. That is, rather than continually increasing duration, increase it slightly, then decrease it, then increase then decrease in an irregular and unpredictable fashion.

When you work on duration, temporarily decrease your criteria for distraction and do the same when working on distance.

Stop giving a treat after every behavior when your dog has learned the behavior. Then go to a variable reinforcement schedule where you give a treat once in a while, but use secondary reinforcers such as praise and petting most of the time.

Hope this helps - good luck!


----------



## khrios (May 5, 2010)

I found a canine good citizen class which begins today. I am hoping Sadie and I can keep up. 

I am still signed up for the beginner class in April. However, Sadie and I have been working on commands, and I hope it has been enough for the CGC class!


----------



## Aislinn (Nov 13, 2010)

Dubuque Dog Trainer said it excellently. It's the way I train and how I've trained for the past twenty-five years.


----------



## khrios (May 5, 2010)

We did it. Went to the CGC class. All of our hard work is coming together... Just a few weeks ago, she didn't even know how to sit. And today, she did sit, down, come, watch...all for short duration...but she did it. I'm so proud of her! Who said you can't teach an old dog new tricks...


----------



## Kaila (Feb 1, 2012)

khrios said:


> I am not using a clicker yet, I just use the word "YES", then treat.


Karen Pryor is the woman who coined the term "Clicker Training" based on her methods of operant conditioning while training dolphins. This is from her book, "Reaching the Animal Mind":

"*Why Can't I Just Use My Voice?*

Unless your learner is deaf, or lives underwater like a dolphin or a fish, you can certainly use your voice for cues. As long as you standardize the cue for each particular behavior, many species, including all of our domestic animals, can get pretty good at recognizing verbal cues. And if you eventually need dozens or hundreds of cues, well, fortunately you have an ample variety of words.
So why can't we just use your voice as a click, too? That's a good question; we clicker trainers hear that one often. "Why do I have to click? Why can't I just say _good_, or _yes_, to mark the behavior I like?" Well, you can. My pony children did wonders with "Good pony." Of course, they were scrupulous about always using that same word or phrase, and no other, as a marker. They were scrupulous about timing the phrase to occur during the action they were looking for, not after it stopped. And they were scrupulous about never using that word or phrase in casual conversation or for other purposes, at least never around the ponies. The marker was the marker, not to be confused with anything else.
The pony children were young, they had no previous experience, and they just accepted the new rules and followed them. Most adults find it difficult to be that disciplined about their words. It's hard to go all day without saying your chosen word--_good_ or _yes_ or _okay_--by accident; and each time your dog or pony hears that sound without results, you weaken the word's value as a marker.
Then there's the question of timing. One advantage of using an artificial marker is the precision that it teaches _you_. If you are not already skilled at using a marker to shape behavior, your timing will be off when you use your chosen word. I can take four strides across my living room in the time it takes most people to say "Good girl." Even if you use a short word, you still have a handicap when it comes to marking a brief event.
Find a friend to bounce a ball on the floor next to you. Pick up a clicker and try to click at the instant the ball hits the floor. (You don't have to use a clicker; you can tap a spoon on a tabletop instead.) It's harder than it looks; sometimes you will click or tap after the bounce, not on it. However, you will instantly _know_ when you were late, and on subsequent bounces you'll get more accurate.
You won't get that feedback from your own voice. Try to say "Yes!" every time the bounce ball hits the floor. Your friend bouncing the ball will know when you were late or early, but you won't. It seems as if when you hear an outside sound, your brain takes a clear snapshot of what else is going on at that very instant. But when you hear your own voice, even if the words came after the event you were watching, the brain quickly covers for you. "Oh, yes, your timing was great!" If your word was late, you can't distinguish that error and you can't self-correct. Furthermore, if someone _else_ corrects you, you'll be annoyed. Pick up a clicker and you'll circumvent that whole mess."

She goes on to describe an experiment done at an animal shelter with 20 untrained dogs. Half of the dogs were trained using the clicker, the other half with the word "yes." The behavior being trained was to walk over, bump a target with their nose, come back to the handler for a treat, go back and bump the target again, come back to the handler, etc. for as long as the session continued.

"There was a big difference in how fast things went. The dogs getting the click completed the training in an average total time of thirty-six minutes. The dogs getting the verbal marker took an average total time of fifty-nine minutes. The average total number of reinforcements for clicker dogs was 83; for verbally reinforced dogs, 126. *Clicker was certainly quicker.*"




> And what do I do when she makes a mistake, and doesn't do what I asked?


Another quote from Karen Pryor's book, "Reaching the Animal Mind":

"*Fear of Failure: When the Cue Doesn't Work*

There's an odd fear that happens during clicker training, especially if you have a traditional training background; a fear that affects the teacher, not the taught. It's a feeling of disaster when a cue doesn't work.
The cue is not a command. It permits the behavior to happen. People often have a hard time accepting that. With commands, the traditional trainer has a backup plan. If your command doesn't get results, you can _make_ the animal do the behavior with the leash or the spur or the cattle prod or the elephant hook or simply by displaying your own dominant personality.
Experienced trainers who are starting clicker training bring that traditional baggage along. They may gladly learn to click, and to shape behavior, and to use targets, and to teach new cues. That's all fun. But they still equate the cue with a command. Sooner or later they give a cue that the animal should have down pat, and this time the learner doesn't do the behavior. The trainer panics; _now_ what do I do?
You used to have a good way to fix this problem: use force. Now you're not supposed to do that, and you don't see a way out. ****! Actually, this is an extinction experience; something you used to rely on now doesn't work. The natural and understandable tendency is (a) to get angry, (b) to blame the animal, and (c) to fall back on the old system of physical "correction."
Dolphin trainers know that if you give a cue and you get no response, it's not the animal's problem, it's yours. We've also learned that it doesn't really matter why the animal didn't respond; there are a jillion possible reasons, but you don't have to worry about that, because you can fix most cue failures by briefly repeating the training of the cue the way you established it in the beginning. At Sea Life Park I even gave the process a name: going back to kindergarten.
Knowing the causes of cuing problems, however, might help you avoid them in the future, and thus avoid having to suffer an unpleasant extinction-induced anger experience. Here are the main reasons why an animal (or child or friend or employee) doesn't respond to a cue you think it should know:
- It doesn't really know how to do the behavior.
- You haven't really trained that cue yet.
- The animal doesn't recognize the cue because there's something different about it (for example, you signaled with your left hand when you usually use your right).
- The animal thinks something else is the cue. (A friend going to an obedience trial was especially happy about her dog's rock-solid recall: sit the dog, turn, leave him, turn back, and call "Come"--and he came at a gallop every time. What she didn't know was that when she called, she tossed her head a little and that flipped her long blond ponytail sideways. For the actual competition, she put on her good clothes and did her hair up on top of her head. No ponytail. No recall. No passing score. The dog thought the ponytaill flick was the cue.)
- The animal doesn't perceive the cue at all (a hellish problem back at Sea Life Park, where, in the early days, the underwater speakers often conked out, but we didn't know that.)
- You have trained the cue in one environment and now you are in another, and you didn't prepare the animal for that possibility (from the beginning, all behaviors and cues should be taught in changing circumstances, so the cues become one thing that doesn't chance from place to place.)
- You are messing up your cue by adding extras. You tell your dog "Down." That didn't work, so you repeat it, say it louder, bend over, put your hand on the floor, etc. None of this makes the cue more meaningful; the engineering term for all these efforts is _noise_. Finally, however, the dog takes a stab at the behavior. That reinforces your activities. Now, each time you ask for a "Down" and you don't get it, you add stuff to the cue again, trying to "make" the dog do the behavior. The dog is no longer sure which addition is the important one, so his response becomes erratic. Meanwhile, the "Down" cue is messy, loaded with junk. The cure? Get a friend or a video camera to show you just how much unnecessary behavior you yourself are doing. Go back to the clean, simple original cue, and reinforce responses to that, and only that. The dog will bound in circles with joy and relief.
- The least likely (but most often chosen reason): there really is something wrong with the animal, and it's not that he's stubborn, or stupid, or trying to make you look bad. The dog won't pick up the dumbell because he has a sore in his mouth. He can't sit quickly because his hips hurt. Get him checked out."


These are all ways to help set a dog up for success. The basic principle behind clicker training is that you *reward the correct responses and ignore the incorrect responses.* Pretty soon, the correct responses will seem like a bigger payoff to the dog, thus increasing the frequency of behavior that leads to getting good stuff (like food, freedom, and attention). If your dog chooses to ignore your cue, search the above wall of text for a possible reason why. Work on the cue again--like Karen Pryor said, "go back to kindergarten." But don't punish or reward the behavior. Simply ignore it. Sometimes ignoring it once or twice is enough to make the behavior go into extinction, and the dog will work out by herself what the correct response is just by trying something new. So you might not have to completely re-teach the behavior each and every time. But if her success rate is pretty low, then you might want to consider what you're doing that's making the cue so confusing and try re-teaching it again from scratch.


----------

