# Gap View Kennels owner - suspended by AKC



## ragtym

Found this on the AKC's Secretary page: 

*Notice
The AKC’s Management Disciplinary
Committee has suspended the following individuals
from all AKC privileges for six months
and imposed a fine of $500 for having submitted
or caused to be submitted two litter registration
applications that they knew, should have
known, or had a duty to know contained false
certifications (DNA exclusion):
Effective February 17, 2010
Mr. David Liskey, A.K.A. Dave Liskey
(Broadway, VA) Golden Retriever*

I often wonder how that works when they already have litters on the way. There are currently five litters listed on the Gap View site - 2 whelped at the end of March and the other 3 earlier this month.


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## Swampcollie

ragtym said:


> Found this on the AKC's Secretary page:
> 
> 
> I often wonder how that works when they already have litters on the way. There are currently five litters listed on the Gap View site - 2 whelped at the end of March and the other 3 earlier this month.


 
That's too bad. 

Suspended is suspended. No registrations.


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## CarolinaCasey

Not good. I'd suspect that the puppies couldn't be registered, period.

What exactly does this mean that they did?


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## Swampcollie

CarolinaCasey said:


> Not good. I'd suspect that the puppies couldn't be registered, period.


 
Correct! 
When a person is suspended by the AKC, the registrations of ALL dogs they own are also suspended. So all of their animals are in limbo and any puppies on the way can't be registered with the AKC.


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## scottie

Does this mean they can't charge so much money for the pups, or enter shows?


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## Swampcollie

scottie said:


> Does this mean they can't charge so much money for the pups, or enter shows?


 
They can charge whatever they want (or in this case can get). 

They can not enter any AKC Show, or Event while under suspension.


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## Pointgold

ragtym said:


> Found this on the AKC's Secretary page:
> 
> *Notice*
> *The AKC’s Management Disciplinary*
> *Committee has suspended the following individuals*
> *from all AKC privileges for six months*
> *and imposed a fine of $500 for having submitted*
> *or caused to be submitted two litter registration*
> *applications that they knew, should have*
> *known, or had a duty to know contained false*
> *certifications (DNA exclusion):*
> *Effective February 17, 2010*
> *Mr. David Liskey, A.K.A. Dave Liskey*
> *(Broadway, VA) Golden Retriever*
> 
> I often wonder how that works when they already have litters on the way. There are currently five litters listed on the Gap View site - 2 whelped at the end of March and the other 3 earlier this month.


 
Big surprise. NOT. There are SO many other "breeders" like this. It is too bad that the AKC has such limited resources to nail them all.


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## JimS

Would the pups still qualify for an ILP (once they were no longer the property of the suspended kennel that is)? If so, they could still compete in performance events.


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## tippykayak

Wow...these folks came off very badly when they were discussed on this board and then joined under false pretenses. Interesting to see all those red flags confirmed by an AKC ruling.

So, does that statement mean that they registered pups with an incorrect sire and/or dam? And they should have known better (not an honest mistake)?


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## Bender

Pointgold said:


> Big surprise. NOT. There are SO many other "breeders" like this. It is too bad that the AKC has such limited resources to nail them all.


I would question if it's really lack of resources, or AKC not wanting to loose those registration fees....

Lana


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## Swampcollie

Bender said:


> I would question if it's really lack of resources, or AKC not wanting to loose those registration fees....
> 
> Lana


You have to have somebody who is willing to stand up, be counted and file a formal complaint with the supporting documentation. People like that are in short supply these days.


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## esSJay

It's nice to hear that _something_ has been done, but it sure doesn't sounds like enough IMO.


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## tippykayak

Well, again they were cited for messing with lineage paperwork? Not for the condition of their dogs, right? The AKC seems to have a fairly high tolerance for crappy breeding practices before it takes a step like this.


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## ragtym

tippykayak said:


> Well, again they were cited for messing with lineage paperwork? Not for the condition of their dogs, right? The AKC seems to have a fairly high tolerance for crappy breeding practices before it takes a step like this.


Again from the AKC website:

*Compliance Audit Program
DNA genotyping is one of the tools that AKC Inspectors use during routine kennel inspections. AKC inspectors review litter and dog records, check dog identification, examine the conditions of the kennel, and collect DNA samples from litters and their sires and/or dams.

These DNA samples are collected and processed at AKC's expense. DNA Profiles are not issued for dogs sampled during kennel inspections. When errors are found (puppies are 'excluded' to the mating of the sire and dam), the litter registrations are corrected if possible or converted to Conditional Registration.

There is a graduated schedule of fines and penalties when exclusions are found, as follows (effective 11/1/2001):

One excluded litter – the litter owner(s) would receive a letter of reprimand. Litter owner may request additional DNA testing to determine correct parentage, paying the $250 fee for the AKC Inspector's return.

Two excluded litters within a 5-year period – the litter owner(s) would be referred to the Management Discipline Committee for appropriate action (penalty 6 months and a $500.00 fine). Litter owner may request additional DNA testing to determine correct parentage, paying the $250 fee for the AKC Inspector's return.

Three excluded litters within a 5-year period – the litter owner(s) would be referred to the Management Discipline Committee for appropriate action (penalty 1-year suspension and a $1,000.00 fine). Litter owner may request additional DNA testing to determine correct parentage, paying the $250 fee for the AKC Inspector's return.

Four excluded litters within a 5-year period – the litter owner(s) would be referred to the Management Discipline Committee for appropriate action (penalty 5-year suspension and a $2,000.00 fine).
In cases where an exclusion resulted from intent and/or knowledge of the breeder/owner, staff may seek suspension after confirming the first exclusion*.

So it looks like the inspector went to Gap View, took DNA samples from the litters that were there and found that in 2 cases, the DNA of the pups did not match the DNA of the dogs that were supposed to be their parents. Curious to know if they paid the additional $250 fee to find out which parents actually sired those litters.


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## CarolinaCasey

Wow, so either they let the dogs breed indiscriminantly by not making certain a bitch in heat was under supervision or they knowingly bred the bitch to one sire but claimed it was another. I guess they would do this if they wanted people to think it was a better breeding/pairing than it was. 

Irresponsible. Yuck.


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## AcesWild

Very irresponsible...drives me nuts...


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## Pointgold

THis is a very common scenario with "breeders" like this. The one in MI that took so much of my life away from me had issues with this. They ALLOW dogs to breed indiscriminately. They do not CARE about pedigrees, health clearances, temperaments, etc etc, only that two dogs of the opposite sex with intact reproductive organs are capable of pumping out profits for them. 
They will also make litter registrations stating that there are more dogs than were actually whelped, thereby providing them with extra registration slips that they give to buyers of dogs from different litters, often out of parents that are nto even registered themselves. It's ugly.
While it is true that the AKC survives on registration fees, it is also very true that they are woefully understaffed in regards to making field inspections and for stopping these disgusting manufacturers of puppies. As Swampcollie said, it is only when they receive complaints, filed in the proper manner, that they can follow up on them, and when they do, they DO suspend them.


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## Riley05

*Curious*

Has anyone out there gotten a puppy from gapview lately? I was just wondering if you have had any problems or any concerns with your puppy. I see that a lot of people are concerned about their practices, but is anyone a customer of recent that could put in their thoughts? Thanks!


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## Ljilly28

Hi Riley05, Welcome to the forum. Do you have a golden?


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## pburchins

Hi Riley05, Welcome to the forum. If your interested in them, I would suggest running their name in the search section. This kennel has a lot written about them both good and bad. if you are looking for a golden congratulations on doing the research ahead of time. There is a lot of great information documented right on this site.

Please introduce yourself and let us know what you are looking for in a golden.

Take care !
Patrick


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## Riley05

Yes, I am interested in a Golden. I grew up with them my entire life and since I have moved out of my family's home I have wanted one of my own. I am finally in the right place in my life to get one. Thanks for such a warm welcome! 

About Gapview, it does seem they have a lot of dogs on their premises. However, everything seems to be very clean and the website seems to be pretty informative. They also allow anyone to visit anytime, which leads me to believe they are not trying to hide anything. I am just curious because of all the bad things being said (mostly bad practices), it appears that anyone that has gotten a dog from there has had nothing but great things to say. 

What exactly did they get suspended for from the AKC? They just didn't provide the correct information their dogs? It kind of lost me, I am new to all of this stuff. Thanks for all the quick responses and all of the help!


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## BeauShel

I would not get a dog from them. You would not be able to reqister the dog with the AKC so it is no different then getting a dog from the shelter, IMO. 
Per ragtym
So it looks like the inspector went to Gap View, took DNA samples from the litters that were there and found that in 2 cases, the DNA of the pups did not match the DNA of the dogs that were supposed to be their parents. Curious to know if they paid the additional $250 fee to find out which parents actually sired those litters. 

So what that tells me is that puppies are not kept in seperate kennels with their mother away from other litters, but I am not a breeder.And with so many litters on the ground at one time, I would not be surprised to see that happen. I am not certain.


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## Ljilly28

Choose a puppy from an impeccable breeder, for the best chance at a beautiful, healthy best friend. If you tell us your area, we can help.


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## CarolinaCasey

Riley05 said:


> Yes, I am interested in a Golden. I grew up with them my entire life and since I have moved out of my family's home I have wanted one of my own. I am finally in the right place in my life to get one. Thanks for such a warm welcome!
> 
> About Gapview, it does seem they have a lot of dogs on their premises. However, everything seems to be very clean and the website seems to be pretty informative. They also allow anyone to visit anytime, which leads me to believe they are not trying to hide anything. I am just curious because of all the bad things being said (mostly bad practices), it appears that anyone that has gotten a dog from there has had nothing but great things to say.
> 
> What exactly did they get suspended for from the AKC? They just didn't provide the correct information their dogs? It kind of lost me, I am new to all of this stuff. Thanks for all the quick responses and all of the help!


The AKC does not suspend people unless there is a reason. I would not recommend getting a puppy from Gap View Kennels considering their suspension. In my opinion- If they don't even monitor their bitches in heat, how do they adequately supervise, interact, and help puppies developmentally from birth until 8 weeks? The sheer volume of puppies they produce reeks of the beginnings of a mill. :no:

They are plenty of wonderful kennels in the area- I would certainly look elsewhere.




Ljilly28 said:


> Choose a puppy from an impeccable breeder, for the best chance at a beautiful, healthy best friend. If you tell us your area, we can help.


 I agree! If you stick around GRF, you will hear of broken hearts and wallets because someone has bought a puppy from a less than reputable breeder that is in need of medical/behavioral attention. Please let us help you find a breeder that can provide you with a healthy, happy puppy.


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## Bender

The thing is, if you look at gap view, they do look ok from the average person's point of view. Cute puppies and information on health.

BUT....

They don't practice what they preach - many of the dogs on their websites do not have all of their clearances, some only have a few, which means either the dog failed the clearance or they just didn't bother. The puppies are also raised in a kennel, not in a home, so there can be issues there as well. None of the dogs they use for breeding are shown, so add possible training issues (if the parents aren't trained and/or socialized, they don't need to have good temperments, and if they don't have them they can't pass them on). Sheer numbers of dogs and puppies means it's likely they don't see people for more than just feeding and cleaning out kennels, and who knows how they'll treat one of their hundreds of customers who purchase a pup from them...

Compare that to paying the SAME OR LESS for a pup from a breeder who only has a few dogs, who live in the house with them. Both parents have all of the required clearances and maybe a few extra ones as well - if the dog didn't pass it's not used for breeding. Puppies raised in the house, used to the noises and smells of household life, handled daily and socialized with new things, introduced to some basic training methods, crates, loud noises, toys, new people. Each puppy is known as an individual and if there are any concerns they get extra help as needed by the breeder or is sent home with the information. Temperment testing on the pups at the right time to see who would fit where the best for homes. Pups are used to a clean living space and fit right into housebreaking quickly. Parents of the pups are both shown and trained for different events, so they have great temperments and are able to go out in public and handle stress and still perform, so the pups have a good shot at the same, and the new puppy parents can brag about their pup's 'working' parents latest titles. Breeder is very supportive of the new owners getting into events as well, and will call often to check on things as well as take the dog back at any time if there is an issue....

Lana


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## MillysMom

This is great news! I hope this really discourages people from buying puppies from Gap View. I've run into quite a few people with Gap View goldens over the past year... they seem to have really cornered the Northern Virginia unsuspecting puppy buyer market. Hopefully this will put a halt to that.


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## NuttinButGoldens

****. It was starting to sound like David was in over his head. I guess maybe it's true 

My Comet came from there when Harold still owned the place.


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## Riley05

Thanks for all of your input and opinions! I was hoping that someone on here may have dealt with Gapview before. After looking at all of your posts, I think that I will be going back to the drawing board.


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## NuttinButGoldens

Yes, but in 1996. I got me a great dog who lived for 12 years. He passed just last year.

But it is under different ownership now, and as others have dug up over time, the clearances deal seems to be a bit of a mess there.

BTW... That's Comet in my Avatar. Son of Gap Views Dakota and Las Vegas.

How soon are you looking to bring one home. I can check with Gilmour's breeder to see when her next litter is. Generally, there is only one per year.



Riley05 said:


> Thanks for all of your input and opinions! I was hoping that someone on here may have dealt with Gapview before. After looking at all of your posts, I think that I will be going back to the drawing board.


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## marieb

Riley05 said:


> Thanks for all of your input and opinions! I was hoping that someone on here may have dealt with Gapview before. After looking at all of your posts, I think that I will be going back to the drawing board.


Check out Lycinan Goldens in MD I think they have puppies now and they look gorgeous!


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## Pebbles_2212

*Puppy*

I'm a new member to your forum. I am looking for a new puppy to add to my family. We already have two older dogs, but my daughter is a bit to active for either of them. So we have decided to purchase a golden. I too was interested in a Gap View puppy until I read comments on this website. Can anyone point me in the direction of a good breeder in my area? I live in Central Virginia (Charlottesville area)?


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## NuttinButGoldens

Yes in deed! Lycinan's Big Bang is Gilmours Pop 



marieb said:


> Check out Lycinan Goldens in MD I think they have puppies now and they look gorgeous!


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## CarolinaCasey

Pebbles_2212 said:


> I'm a new member to your forum. I am looking for a new puppy to add to my family. We already have two older dogs, but my daughter is a bit to active for either of them. So we have decided to purchase a golden. I too was interested in a Gap View puppy until I read comments on this website. Can anyone point me in the direction of a good breeder in my area? I live in Central Virginia (Charlottesville area)?


You should start a new topic in the "Choosing a GR Breeder" section so that you will get more responses.

You can look at Lycinan Goldens, Delmarva Goldens, Elderado Goldens. How far are you willing to travel? Make sure you look at the "Puppy Buyer's Fact Guide" and other stickies that will provide you important info about clearances and health.


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## Pebbles_2212

Thanks everyone! I will look at Lycinan Goldens and start a new topic in the Choosing GR Breeder section!


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## Ljilly28

Sunkota Goldens is in the area, and will probably have good advice if not a littler. I love their dogs.


Cathy Story
Fairfax Station, VA USA 22039 
[email protected]
www.sunkota.com/sunkota_goldens.htm


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## sameli102

Pebbles_2212 said:


> Thanks everyone! I will look at Lycinan Goldens and start a new topic in the Choosing GR Breeder section!


Lycinan has puppies now, and an adorable little girl pictured. My boy is sired by Lycinan Big Bang too.


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## sameli102

Ljilly28 said:


> Sunkota Goldens is in the area, and will probably have good advice if not a littler. I love their dogs.
> 
> 
> I had not heard of Sunkota but it looks interesting.


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## NuttinButGoldens

If you are looking for a Pup in VA, and I have not PM'd you already, send me a PM...


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## Gap View Goldens

If you want to talk to me about my breeding practices, feel free to call *(removed for privacy reasons).* Much of what is being said here is simply not true - there is no random breeding going on. By the way, you can visit any time. Just call me to set up an appointment. Tell me you're from this forum and let's talk, person to person. Thanks to a friend, I found out this stuff was up here. Oh, and by the way, I never joined under false pretenses at any time. Thanks. Dave Liskey,


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## BorzoiMom

Dave.... I had to think about what I am about to say so as not to come off the wrong way.. 

In order to be suspended for DNA charges- that means falsified registrations. In other words- stating that a puppy someone buys, then registers has say Champion this sire, this dam of that pup. 
Only then to find that the DNA on the pup does not match said 'breeding" registration. 
Falsified registrations.. Additionally- it doesn't happen with one litter not registered right. That is a correction of which is the wrong listed parent. It had to been alot. 

And in order to have a 6 month suspension, it was not one falsified registration for that as the if I remember right, the first or second etc is a fine. 
In order to be suspended it has to be a large number of falsified registrations. 

AKC is a registration of this sire to that dam, known by generations to be a 'pure bred" of that breed. And shows the integrity of the breeder. 

So- one of two situations exist here... 
1. You did not know whom the Sire actually was of said litter (s) was. 
or 
2. You falsified whom the Sire was as the dam was bred to a different dog or mated with and conceived by. 

I do not even have Goldens. However- I have been in the past a breeder and this type of activity is what gives the " real breeders" a 'bad name" due to your falsehoods. 

One more point- if it were anything else other than AKC- say you falsified a title to a car etc- you would be in jail. 

The final cold hard facts of this is - 
1. Any puppy that anyone bought out of the questioned litters or dogs, is not eligable to be shown in any sort, short of having them get a ILP which means only obedience etc but not conformation 
1a. Any puppy now during that 6 months can not be registered unless they file a ILP. - and again- that limits what they can show- obedience etc .. 
2. an ILP means that the dog must be spayed or neutered and looks like a Golden enough to have the number given
3. If any of those pups out of those questioned litter (s) even if Champions- their TITLE can be Stripped from them! The dogs can loose their Titles- you do know this right????? 

I know the rules of the AKC, and while not having Goldens, ... I do not think you fully understand the consequences of the severity of the situation.


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## nixietink

Gap View Goldens said:


> If you want to talk to me about my breeding practices, feel free to call 540-896-7327. Much of what is being said here is simply not true - there is no random breeding going on. By the way, you can visit any time. Just call me to set up an appointment. Tell me you're from this forum and let's talk, person to person. Thanks to a friend, I found out this stuff was up here. Oh, and by the way, I never joined under false pretenses at any time. Thanks. Dave Liskey, 540-896-7327.


Then why don't you please explain your suspension from the AKC to all of us here? It all looks pretty clear to me.


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## BorzoiMom

nixietink said:


> Then why don't you please explain your suspension from the AKC to all of us here? It all looks pretty clear to me.


Yes it is.. This was not a one time occurance.. 

And, Dave- you may not be aware of this- but AKC can require any prior litters registered to be DNA'd or have their registrations can be revoked, requiring the owner of said puppy to have to get a ILP in order to show the dog in obedience etc but not- conformation.

/edit- Whoa- and it gets worse- according to this link, all AKC privileges are suspended. That includes ILP as that is part of the AKC privileges. 
http://www.akc.org/pdfs/clubs/club_policies/AKC_Suspensions_Club_Suspensions.pdf


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## BorzoiMom

Well I pm'd this person yesterday,almost 24 hours ago. As assured by a moderator of the process, that would have triggered a email to this person, and then on reading the pm here, would have signaled my read receipt. 
This has not occured as to date.

What I will say is if I was falsely accused of something, I would chase it down and state 'my' side of something. So....


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## Swampcollie

borzoimom said:


> Well I pm'd this person yesterday,almost 24 hours ago. As assured by a moderator of the process, that would have triggered a email to this person, and then on reading the pm here, would have signaled my read receipt.
> This has not occured as to date.
> 
> What I will say is if I was falsely accused of something, I would chase it down and state 'my' side of something. So....


You do have to be fair. 
New members can't use the PM system until they reach a minimum number of posts. Since the party in question only has one post, they can't use the PM system.


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## BorzoiMom

Swampcollie said:


> You do have to be fair.
> New members can't use the PM system until they reach a minimum number of posts. Since the party in question only has one post, they can't use the PM system.


 Thank you! I was not aware of that.


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## tippykayak

Gap View Goldens said:


> Oh, and by the way, I never joined under false pretenses at any time. Thanks. Dave Liskey,


http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showpost.php?p=971028&postcount=153


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## BorzoiMom

tippykayak said:


> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showpost.php?p=971028&postcount=153


 Holy Toledo...


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## Pointgold

Gawd... like vampires and werewolves, it seems that the HVB's and nasty miller-types come out when there is a full moon. First, a GRM related thread, now this. I'm going to go take a very hot shower...just the thought of them makes me feel the need to get clean.


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## Pointgold

Gap View Goldens said:


> If you want to talk to me about my breeding practices, feel free to call *(removed for privacy reasons).* Much of what is being said here is simply not true - there is no random breeding going on. By the way, you can visit any time. Just call me to set up an appointment. Tell me you're from this forum and let's talk, person to person. Thanks to a friend, I found out this stuff was up here. Oh, and by the way, I never joined under false pretenses at any time. Thanks. Dave Liskey,


I will (as usual) put my neck on the chopping block and say that _nothing _that this person could say would convince me that this is anyplace that I would refer potential puppy buyers to. NOTHING.


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## nixietink

Pointgold said:


> I will (as usual) put my neck on the chopping block and say that _nothing _that this person could say would convince me that this is anyplace that I would refer potential puppy buyers to. NOTHING.


Seriously. Plus, their website's music sounds like the background to a porno. :bowl:


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## Gap View Goldens

I logged into my email this morning to find some messages from the forum. So I'll address the issue like you're asking - here is the notice from AKC:

*Notice
The AKC’s Management Disciplinary
Committee has suspended the following individuals
from all AKC privileges for six months
and imposed a fine of $500 for having submitted
or caused to be submitted two litter registration
applications that they knew, should have
known, or had a duty to know contained false
certifications (DNA exclusion):
Effective February 17, 2010
Mr. David Liskey, A.K.A. Dave Liskey
(Broadway, VA) Golden Retriever

*This was not intentional. It happened because I wasn't watching and my dog Clyde climbed over his pen into Sampson's pen while Sampson was with a female to be bred. This happened twice and I didn't realize what had happened until after DNA testing had been done. The last litter to be registered incorrectly was born 3 years ago and AKC did not find out about it until recently when they tested a dog from that litter. Clyde's DNA is on file with the AKC, and they provided corrections to the litters he sired. 

When I found out what happened, I made changes immediately, but it could not take back what had happened....lesson learned.

I have moved Clyde to a 12 foot high kennel as opposed to a 6 foot high kennel, so he can no longer climb over the top. I have learned a lesson from these mistakes and am moving forward. I admit, I didn't always watch the dogs closely while they were breeding in the past, however I am now extremely cautious and monitor them carefully. 

Yes, I have a lot of dogs. I retire the dams early and I don't breed them every time they have a season like some breeders do....someone some time back in the posts mentioned that a lot of breeders do not make themselves accessible to the public other than for advertising puppies and selling puppies. I understand that some of you don't agree with the way I work, however each and every time that my facilities have been inspected by the AKC, I have passed with no violations. The people who work for me do a great job taking care of the dogs, keeping the facility clean, and helping me with the rest of the work on this ranch. 

No....I'm not a vampire or a werewolf who only comes out for the full moon. I am a busy rancher. I spend my days taking care of the farm, and not in front of this computer. "BigDS01" is not me, if you don't believe that, then don't. I'm not into petty arguing. Really...call and talk to me in person if you want. You can find the number on the internet and if you don't like the music on my site, you can click the sound wave on the bottom to shut it off.


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## BorzoiMom

Gap View Goldens said:


> I logged into my email this morning to find some messages from the forum. So I'll address the issue like you're asking - here is the notice from AKC:
> 
> *Notice*
> *The AKC’s Management Disciplinary*
> *Committee has suspended the following individuals*
> *from all AKC privileges for six months*
> *and imposed a fine of $500 for having submitted*
> *or caused to be submitted two litter registration*
> *applications that they knew, should have*
> *known, or had a duty to know contained false*
> *certifications (DNA exclusion):*
> *Effective February 17, 2010*
> *Mr. David Liskey, A.K.A. Dave Liskey*
> *(Broadway, VA) Golden Retriever*
> 
> This was not intentional. It happened because I wasn't watching and my dog Clyde climbed over his pen into Sampson's pen while Sampson was with a female to be bred. This happened twice and I didn't realize what had happened until after DNA testing had been done. The last litter to be registered incorrectly was born 3 years ago and AKC did not find out about it until recently when they tested a dog from that litter. Clyde's DNA is on file with the AKC, and they provided corrections to the litters he sired.
> 
> When I found out what happened, I made changes immediately, but it could not take back what had happened....lesson learned.
> 
> I have moved Clyde to a 12 foot high kennel as opposed to a 6 foot high kennel, so he can no longer climb over the top. I have learned a lesson from these mistakes and am moving forward. I admit, I didn't always watch the dogs closely while they were breeding in the past, however I am now extremely cautious and monitor them carefully.
> 
> Yes, I have a lot of dogs. I retire the dams early and I don't breed them every time they have a season like some breeders do....someone some time back in the posts mentioned that a lot of breeders do not make themselves accessible to the public other than for advertising puppies and selling puppies. I understand that some of you don't agree with the way I work, however each and every time that my facilities have been inspected by the AKC, I have passed with no violations. The people who work for me do a great job taking care of the dogs, keeping the facility clean, and helping me with the rest of the work on this ranch.
> 
> No....I'm not a vampire or a werewolf who only comes out for the full moon. I am a busy rancher. I spend my days taking care of the farm, and not in front of this computer. "BigDS01" is not me, if you don't believe that, then don't. I'm not into petty arguing. Really...call and talk to me in person if you want. You can find the number on the internet and if you don't like the music on my site, you can click the sound wave on the bottom to shut it off.


Interesting Dave, and that does explain quite a bit. Even the best of breeders can have an " opps". I own a female that we have to resort to using keyed dead bolts on doors because she can open any type of door. 
( I am totally serious- I wear the key on a chain around my neck knowing her capabilities). 

Lesson has been learned, and I am sure in the future, you shall be more careful. 

As far as by appointment- I can see that too. Afterall - when a litter of pups is on the ground, the property goes into lock down to prevent like a disease or illness from coming into the house. I would even put a pan of bleach at the front door, and either you take off your shoes, or in the pan the shoes go. I do not attend dog shows, or any other event involving other dogs or people I do not know. 

I have a friend that a female opened the crate of a vari kennel to a male dog. I am totally serious! The bitch had never shown that behavior before- ever! 

Its a good lesson- DNA the pups before registering. 

Thank you for your reply.


----------



## Pointgold

Gap View Goldens said:


> I logged into my email this morning to find some messages from the forum. So I'll address the issue like you're asking - here is the notice from AKC:
> 
> *Notice*
> *The AKC’s Management Disciplinary*
> *Committee has suspended the following individuals*
> *from all AKC privileges for six months*
> *and imposed a fine of $500 for having submitted*
> *or caused to be submitted two litter registration*
> *applications that they knew, should have*
> *known, or had a duty to know contained false*
> *certifications (DNA exclusion):*
> *Effective February 17, 2010*
> *Mr. David Liskey, A.K.A. Dave Liskey*
> *(Broadway, VA) Golden Retriever*
> 
> This was not intentional. It happened because I wasn't watching and my dog Clyde climbed over his pen into Sampson's pen while Sampson was with a female to be bred. This happened twice and I didn't realize what had happened until after DNA testing had been done. The last litter to be registered incorrectly was born 3 years ago and AKC did not find out about it until recently when they tested a dog from that litter. Clyde's DNA is on file with the AKC, and they provided corrections to the litters he sired.
> 
> When I found out what happened, I made changes immediately, but it could not take back what had happened....lesson learned.


 
:scratchch This hasn't answered anything for me, only raised more questions.

So, was the litter in question dual-sired? And with two intact males both attempting to breed one bitch in season did you not have a horrific fight?

Wasn't one of your fabulous employees there when the bitch was being bred (intentionally to Samson) or do you just put the dog and bitch together? If an employee WAS there, why didn't you find out about a situation that under any circumstances would have been a huge problem, let alone one that happened _twice _?


----------



## tippykayak

Gap View Goldens said:


> "BigDS01" is not me, if you don't believe that, then don't.


I certainly don't know if that user is you, but it was certainly somebody who acted very oddly and defended your kennel in a way that suggested he was affiliated with it.


----------



## freakley

*Gap View pups*

I don't know what has happened at Gap View concerning the AKC. All I can say is that I have purchased three pups from this Kennel, the first in 1998, second in 2003 and the third in 2008. These have been wonderful companions and I wouldn't trade them for anything in the world. The latter two are at my feet as I write this. I always found Gap View extremely clean and well maintained and all the sires and dams friendly and well cared for. The litters also. My dogs are part of the family, not show dogs or the like. I hope this all gets cleared up. -- Ed Freakley -- June 1, 2010


----------



## Ljilly28

Since the AKC has disciplined Gap View, do you plan to pause your breeding program for the six months that is your ethics violation penalty, or will you keep breeding lots of pups and just not register them with AKC?


----------



## tippykayak

Ljilly28 said:


> Since the AKC has disciplined Gap View, do you plan to pause your breeding program for the six months that is your ethics violation penalty, or will you keep breeding lots of pups and just not register them with AKC?


That was my question too. It looks like that section of the website was fairly empty, so I was hoping they had paused their breeding program to reevaluate a bunch of their practices, like the laxity that led to the pup with the missing toe, the laxity of leaving dogs together alone during breeding, etc. These are the kinds of reasons that it's prudent to steer clear of high volume breeders, and I'm curious as to what changes Gap View is going to make going forward.


----------



## BorzoiMom

freakley said:


> I don't know what has happened at Gap View concerning the AKC. All I can say is that I have purchased three pups from this Kennel, the first in 1998, second in 2003 and the third in 2008. These have been wonderful companions and I wouldn't trade them for anything in the world. The latter two are at my feet as I write this. I always found Gap View extremely clean and well maintained and all the sires and dams friendly and well cared for. The litters also. My dogs are part of the family, not show dogs or the like. I hope this all gets cleared up. -- Ed Freakley -- June 1, 2010


 Hello Ed and Welcome. 

What it basically means is that the suspension is due to incorrectly registered breedings/ ie litters of pups. 
As to whether or not this affects your dogs, is unknown. However- if you are showing in any form, you might want to get a DNA done on your dogs. 
Or if nothing else, get the DNA done so you can determine parentage of the parents of your dogs. If nothing else you know whom the parents are for health reasons. ( example if one of the parents has Hip Dysplasia etc). 

Some health conditions can manefest in behavior issues- ie if painful when rising, the dog being in pain might not be as patient etc. Knowing this ahead of time, would help to determine the issue. 

I am not sure how much the DNA test is, but I am sure your vet will know for your area.


----------



## tippykayak

freakley said:


> I don't know what has happened at Gap View concerning the AKC. All I can say is that I have purchased three pups from this Kennel, the first in 1998, second in 2003 and the third in 2008. These have been wonderful companions and I wouldn't trade them for anything in the world. The latter two are at my feet as I write this. I always found Gap View extremely clean and well maintained and all the sires and dams friendly and well cared for. The litters also. My dogs are part of the family, not show dogs or the like. I hope this all gets cleared up. -- Ed Freakley -- June 1, 2010


Hey Ed,

I'm so glad your Goldens are happy and healthy. I hope that for each and every Golden, regardless of the practices of their breeders. 

Dave was pretty clear about what happened. He left dogs alone while intending to breed them, and another dog got to the bitch, and he filed AKC paperwork as if nothing out of the ordinary had happened. Twice. There's nothing to clear up. He admits that his suspension accurately names the mistakes he made.

I think it's pretty clear that Gap View is clean, but a number of red flags have been raised about the care that Dave Liskey takes with the dogs he breeds. An AKC suspension is serious business.

The concern here is that appropriate attention is not being paid to the careful breeding of dogs for health and temperament, and that a large breeding operation may not be able to provide optimal socialization and care for puppies (whether they're intended for pet homes or Westminster). These concerns have been confirmed, as Liskey apparently sold a puppy without realizing it was missing a toe and could not walk properly, and twice he registered a litter as belonging to one sire, even though he knew that another dog had had access to the bitch. Twice!

How can one individual stand behind producing fifty or more puppies at a time while running an agribusiness that also produces "Cattle Products Including Black Angus, Texas Long Horn and Scottish Highlanders, Quality Hay Products....Chickens, Turkeys, Peacocks"? It is not terribly surprising that he doesn't have the time to ensure litters are registered with the correct sire or that puppies are properly handled and examined before they're sold.

Liskey also does not OFA certify elbows on his breeding dogs, which is a basic ethical requirement listed by the Golden Retriever Club of America.

Gap View is clearly not the worst of the worst when it comes to high volume and for-profit breeders, but it's starting to become very clear that one could do a whole lot better.


----------



## Pointgold

I've heard every excuse under the sun as to why the AKC suspended this breeder or that... And frankly, while GRM had more stories than most (and they changed depending on who she was telling), I cannot for the life of me understand A. just putting a male and a female together and lettin' 'em breed and B. how a SECOND intact male could get in with them and nobody knowing it. Two intact males with a bitch in standing season are not going to be pals and simply "share" her... Even my boys who get along great together would fight in such a situation, and someone would be hurt. So, for having people working for him and "taking great care of the dogs" for him, it is beyond me how this could have been missed.
I'm more than a little skeptical.


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> I've heard every excuse under the sun as to why the AKC suspended this breeder or that... And frankly, while GRM had more stories than most (and they changed depending on who she was telling), I cannot for the life of me understand A. just putting a male and a female together and lettin' 'em breed and B. how a SECOND intact male could get in with them and nobody knowing it. Two intact males with a bitch in standing season are not going to be pals and simply "share" her... Even my boys who get along great together would fight in such a situation, and someone would be hurt. So, for having people working for him and "taking great care of the dogs" for him, it is beyond me how this could have been missed.
> I'm more than a little skeptical.


Even if they didn't fight, which is definitely hard to believe, wouldn't you know something was wrong when you came back to the breeding pair and there was a third dog standing there?

Or did he jump the fence back into his own kennel once his mission was over, like a ninja?


----------



## Pointgold

Not noticing that a second male was in with a bitch in season somehow doesn't seem to be surprising given that it wasn't noticed that a puppy had a missing toe and other neurological concerns until _after _he was sold.

Sorry. This kennel doesn't make my short list, _or _my long list, of places I'd refer to.


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## BorzoiMom

Well I have no clue about them. I would rather all breeders are above board. 
However- in my faith " judge not lest ye be judged". And while I have never had any stated ( obviously)not knowing whom bred to whom etc- but the fact is- I do know some that had an opps( though I never had one), and while I wonder, I am not going to judge another person I do not know. 
Comments such as I have witnessed in the last few posts, does not make the those posters " righteous". 

I agree there are alot of problems, but let them settle it out. Errors have been pointed out, but a witch hunt is not my cup of tea. Learn, educate and move on. 

I do not think this forum allows a witch hunt. I agree there are huge questions, but they are not my questions to answer to myself. 
I know the situation sounds horrid, and I agree- obviously huge problems. But a witch hunt solves nothing.


----------



## AmbikaGR

borzoimom said:


> I know the situation sounds horrid, and I agree- obviously huge problems. But a witch hunt solves nothing.



No witch hunt, more of an ongoing fact finding mission that does benefit anyone considering getting a pup from this breeder. While "oops" litters do happen breeders should know/acknowledge the fact before 3 years after the litter is whelped. And this breeder's account of the situation really does not add up at all.


----------



## BorzoiMom

AmbikaGR said:


> No witch hunt, more of an ongoing fact finding mission that does benefit anyone considering getting a pup from this breeder. While "oops" litters do happen breeders should know/acknowledge the fact before 3 years after the litter is whelped. And this breeder's account of the situation really does not add up at all.


 Agreed. I find it horrid, but thats just me. However- having said that, something is obviously wrong- but how can we educate if we alienate?


----------



## Pointgold

borzoimom said:


> Agreed. I find it horrid, but thats just me. However- having said that, something is obviously wrong- but how can we educate if we alienate?


Alienate who? A breeder who sees nothing at all wrong with his "breeding practices"?


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## BorzoiMom

I am trying to educate here... I agree its awful situation, but we could help through our knowledge, but not slap so bad they do not learn.


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## BorzoiMom

Pointgold said:


> Alienate who? A breeder who sees nothing at all wrong with his "breeding practices"?


 Oh and obviously by his post, he realizes there is a problem so lets help- not smack when down.


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## AmbikaGR

borzoimom said:


> Oh and obviously by his post, he realizes there is a problem so lets help- not smack when down.



Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.


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## BorzoiMom

I am just trying to educate- not to excuse but at least the first step has come on their part- admit a failure. So lets regroup and try to help.


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## Pointgold

borzoimom said:


> I am just trying to educate- not to excuse but at least the first step has come on their part- admit a failure. So lets regroup and try to help.


Many of us Golden breeders (and other members) have been here for a very long time - this is not a new situation. It is, as Ambika stated, ongoing. There would be no "admission of failure" had there not been a published disciplinary decision by the AKC. And the explanation of it is, shall we say, less than plausible.


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## tippykayak

borzoimom said:


> Well I have no clue about them. I would rather all breeders are above board.
> However- in my faith " judge not lest ye be judged". And while I have never had any stated ( obviously)not knowing whom bred to whom etc- but the fact is- I do know some that had an opps( though I never had one), and while I wonder, I am not going to judge another person I do not know.
> Comments such as I have witnessed in the last few posts, does not make the those posters " righteous".
> 
> I agree there are alot of problems, but let them settle it out. Errors have been pointed out, but a witch hunt is not my cup of tea. Learn, educate and move on.
> 
> I do not think this forum allows a witch hunt. I agree there are huge questions, but they are not my questions to answer to myself.
> I know the situation sounds horrid, and I agree- obviously huge problems. But a witch hunt solves nothing.


I agree with you in principle, but I do not think an admission of guilt has really been made here. The breeder admitted the facts that are already in the AKC's notice of suspension and offered a very thin explanation for them that admits nothing about the problems in his breeding practices that were pointed out long before the suspension.

I don't believe it's a witch hunt to call a spade a spade and ask this breeder to admit that more than an honest mistake was made here. As the AKC suspension states, he had the responsibility to know that these litter might not have had the sire he registered. I'm not a breeder, and even I know that when you find two dogs with a bitch in heat, you can't assume she was impregnated by the one you intended. This case confirms many people's worst fears about high volume breeding, as does the situation with the pup with the missing toe and the neurological problems. There is a problem in breeding practices here, not just a one-time honest mistake.

The breeder does not have to answer to us, but people trying to learn more about his operation should have an opportunity to hear honest criticism of his breeding practices and tough questions about what transpired leading up to the AKC suspension. Currently, I think we're in the realm of those tough questions, not a witch hunt. I do not believe, based on what we've heard so far, that this individual is really interested in changing his operation and practices, so my priorities lie with the potential future buyers. It's them I'm trying to educate, not Mr. Liskey.

I agree that we need to refrain from crossing that line into a witch hunt, and I will definitely make a big effort to moderate my posts as we continue.


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## Ljilly28

borzoimom said:


> I am just trying to educate- not to excuse but at least the first step has come on their part- admit a failure. So lets regroup and try to help.


That's a nice sentiment for someone with their first dog who makes a mistake, but for someone who continues to breed a large number of pups after an AKC official suspension, the issue is not one of education but profit-motive.

If this breeder sincerely ceases breeding for the time of his sanction, then that would be a nice gesture of ethics and I hope he does. 

This forum has always taken this stance about breeders who do not live up to the GRCA ethics , so there is nothing personal or "witch hunt" ish about this one.


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## LibertyME

I am not convinced if this particular breeder is one that wants help to become a reputable breeder or one that wants help to skirt and skim the rules so he can get back to turning a massive profit ASAP.

IMHO it is kinda like an addict that has gotten caught because he failed a drug-test...He states to the judge...I need help. 
Is the addict googling the web looking for help to fake the next test or is he looking for rehab centers?


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## BorzoiMom

dauplicate post- sorry about that..


----------



## BorzoiMom

tippykayak said:


> .....
> There is a problem in breeding practices here, not just a one-time honest mistake.
> 
> ... Currently, I think we're in the realm of those tough questions, not a witch hunt. I do not believe, based on what we've heard so far, that this individual is really interested in changing his operation and practices, so my priorities lie with the potential future buyers. It's them I'm trying to educate, not Mr. Liskey.
> 
> I agree that we need to refrain from crossing that line into a witch hunt, and I will definitely make a big effort to moderate my posts as we continue.


( where is the icon for applause!). Excellent summary of this! 



Ljilly28 said:


> That's a nice sentiment for someone with their first dog who makes a mistake, but for someone who continues to breed a large number of pups after an AKC official suspension, the issue is not one of education but profit-motive.
> 
> If this breeder sincerely ceases breeding for the time of his sanction, then that would be a nice gesture of ethics and I hope he does.
> 
> ...


Agreed! And I certainly hope he does as well. 
I have trying to avoid from highly lifting this eyebrowed question, but if the first litter registered wrong was 3 years ago, why were the actions taken then to prevent a further occurance...

If said breeder returns to the forum, at least that would show a willingness to see and learn from the 'errors of ones ways", and hopefully rectify the situation.


----------



## BorzoiMom

LibertyME said:


> I am not convinced if this particular breeder is one that wants help to become a reputable breeder or one that wants help to skirt and skim the rules so he can get back to turning a massive profit ASAP.
> 
> IMHO it is kinda like an addict that has gotten caught because he failed a drug-test...He states to the judge...I need help.
> Is the addict googling the web looking for help to fake the next test or is he looking for rehab centers?


 ( we were obviously typing at the same time..) 
Very true as only the person themselves can make that transformation and efforts to correct.


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## Pointgold

Said breeder (as with so many like this) returns to the forum simply to see what is being said about him. Some have actually been known to change the rhetoric on their websites to reflect sound information that they have read here, but it proves to be they "talk the talk" but don't "walk the walk".


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## BorzoiMom

Pointgold said:


> Said breeder (as with so many like this) returns to the forum simply to see what is being said about him. Some have actually been known to change the rhetoric on their websites to reflect sound information that they have read here, but it proves to be they "talk the talk" but don't "walk the walk".


 ...yup...


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## ibpsimmons

*Gap View Not Bad*

I think I understand the circumstances behind the AKC suspension of Gap View Kennel, and it seems to have been the result of an 'accident'. It happened a while ago and concerns a rather aggressive male golden who can climb tall fences. ;-) This male just happens to be the father of our year-and-a-half old Dinah. Even though the incident in question happened a couple of years ago, he was still climbing a 6-8 foot tall chain link fence when we met him. (Not that it has any bearing on the situation, but he is also the most gorgeous male golden I have ever seen!)

Other than that, we have been to Gap View Kennel several times and found it to be a beautiful place where the dogs are well cared for and happy. The farm is nestled in the hills near Broadway, VA, and is wonderfully maintained. The folks there are quite friendly and helpful. They were strict with us about breeding policies and the puppy barn was clean and roomy. We even had to attend a dog care class before we could take our puppy home.

I have never seen a "puppy mill", but I think the owners of one would care much less about the pups than they do at Gap View. On the contrary, the owners appear to run the kennel with the _dogs'_ best interest in mind.


----------



## ibpsimmons

We bought a puppy from them a year and a half ago, and I don't believe what many of the members are saying about Gap View is correct. It appears they are attributing what they have learned about corrupt breeders to Gap View. I saw no evidence that Gap View indiscriminately pairs the dogs and makes up pedigrees. On the contrary, for breeding purposes, they select males and females who will compliment each other in their progeny and produce beautiful, healthy dogs. 

The reason for their suspension may be well-documented, but as for the other comments I have read here, I have found that, no matter what kind of operation someone has or how well they run it, there will ALWAYS be people who are unhappy about something.

We are extraordinarily happy with our dog and with Gap View Kennels.


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## AmbikaGR

I am very glad you are happy with your pup from this kennel.
However nothing you say will change what the facts and time have proved. They are not a responsible or reputable breeder by the standards set by the GRCA or AKC and have not shown the willingness to change the way they do things to change that. And that is the reason threads like this exist, so when the next puppy family goes looking for a pup they can see the facts.


----------



## tippykayak

ibpsimmons said:


> We bought a puppy from them a year and a half ago, and I don't believe what many of the members are saying about Gap View is correct. It appears they are attributing what they have learned about corrupt breeders to Gap View. I saw no evidence that Gap View indiscriminately pairs the dogs and makes up pedigrees.


No "corrupt breeders" have participated here. What's been mentioned is what the AKC actually suspended Gap View for and what the owner himself admitted happened. Nobody said Gap View was indiscriminate, but on two occasions, they deliberately misregistered a litter when they should have known better. At least two times this dog got in with a bitch, and at least two times they registered the puppies to a different stud. Right? 

It's one thing to make a mistake and have a dog get at the wrong bitch. It happens. It's quite another to pretend it didn't happen and to register the puppies without knowing who their father is. Who can defend that as an honest mistake that happened to somebody following good practices?


----------



## Pointgold

A person affiliated with the kennel in question is who can defend their practices... 
Sorry, but great care has NOT been taken in their pairings. The criteria has been intact male to intact female. There is no rhyme or reason to their pedigrees other than to make puppies.


----------



## tippykayak

ibpsimmons said:


> On the contrary, for breeding purposes, they select males and females who will compliment each other in their progeny and produce beautiful, healthy dogs.


Can you give an example? For instance, how do the sire and dam of your pup complement each other? What were the desired characteristics of the litter? What were the goals in terms of health and structure, and were there any known issues in the line that the breeder was hoping to lessen or eliminate?


----------



## solinvictus

ibpsimmons wrote:It happened a while ago and concerns a rather *aggressive* male golden who can climb tall fences. ;-) This male just happens to be the father of our year-and-a-half old Dinah. Even though the incident in question happened a couple of years ago, he was still climbing a 6-8 foot tall chain link fence when we met him. (Not that it has any bearing on the situation, but he is also the most gorgeous male golden I have ever seen!)

Aggressive isn't in the breed standard. Your statement wouldn't make me feel more confident in this breeder.


----------



## BorzoiMom

Have you DNA'd your dog? And I am sorry, but even in my training classes I teach, I have NEVER met an aggressive golden.


----------



## Pointgold

"All of our Golden Retrievers at Gap View are AKC registered and many have champion backgrounds. With their pedigree's in hand, we can trace family genetic and backgounds to insure no poor breeding practices were followed. All pedigrees of our dogs are available to view here online and when visiting us at the kennel."

So. AKC registered - big deal. Many have champion backgrounds - so do many mutts - look back far enough. Lots of GapView dogs have a champion 3, 4 or more generations back. One big reason why limited registration came to be - reputable breeders are mortified to see their champions in the pedigrees of byb's and puppy mills. Holding the pedigree in hand while an "agressive" male climbs a 6-8 foot fence (not once, but at least twice) to breed a bitch left with another male to be bred speaks volumes... What "poor breeding practices" are you thinking you'll find in those pedigrees in your hand? *I'm still waiting for an answer regarding how 2 males (1 "agressive" who climbed a 6-8 foot fence) could have been in the same pen as a bitch in standing season without a HORRIFIC fight ensuing...
I've viewed those pedigrees online. Not much can be said to recommend them.


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## Ljilly28

The phrase "puppy barn" gives me pause. A litter should be raised underfoot, hearing household noises, meeting children and all kinds of people.


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## NuttinButGoldens

Dammit, that's really too bad. The best Golden I ever had came from there, but it was way back in the mid 90's when Howard owned the place and before he sold it.



ragtym said:


> Found this on the AKC's Secretary page:
> 
> *Notice
> The AKC’s Management Disciplinary
> Committee has suspended the following individuals
> from all AKC privileges for six months
> and imposed a fine of $500 for having submitted
> or caused to be submitted two litter registration
> applications that they knew, should have
> known, or had a duty to know contained false
> certifications (DNA exclusion):
> Effective February 17, 2010
> Mr. David Liskey, A.K.A. Dave Liskey
> (Broadway, VA) Golden Retriever*
> 
> I often wonder how that works when they already have litters on the way. There are currently five litters listed on the Gap View site - 2 whelped at the end of March and the other 3 earlier this month.


----------



## NuttinButGoldens

I can understand now why this doesn't happen very often. I can't even imagine the manpower it would take to keep tabs on how many thousands, if not millions, of breeders?

I suspect it all started with a complain. Or two. Or three. I suspect some sort of complaint threshold was reached that kicked this in to action.



ragtym said:


> Again from the AKC website:
> 
> *Compliance Audit Program
> DNA genotyping is one of the tools that AKC Inspectors use during routine kennel inspections. AKC inspectors review litter and dog records, check dog identification, examine the conditions of the kennel, and collect DNA samples from litters and their sires and/or dams.
> 
> These DNA samples are collected and processed at AKC's expense. DNA Profiles are not issued for dogs sampled during kennel inspections. When errors are found (puppies are 'excluded' to the mating of the sire and dam), the litter registrations are corrected if possible or converted to Conditional Registration.
> 
> There is a graduated schedule of fines and penalties when exclusions are found, as follows (effective 11/1/2001):
> 
> One excluded litter – the litter owner(s) would receive a letter of reprimand. Litter owner may request additional DNA testing to determine correct parentage, paying the $250 fee for the AKC Inspector's return.
> 
> Two excluded litters within a 5-year period – the litter owner(s) would be referred to the Management Discipline Committee for appropriate action (penalty 6 months and a $500.00 fine). Litter owner may request additional DNA testing to determine correct parentage, paying the $250 fee for the AKC Inspector's return.
> 
> Three excluded litters within a 5-year period – the litter owner(s) would be referred to the Management Discipline Committee for appropriate action (penalty 1-year suspension and a $1,000.00 fine). Litter owner may request additional DNA testing to determine correct parentage, paying the $250 fee for the AKC Inspector's return.
> 
> Four excluded litters within a 5-year period – the litter owner(s) would be referred to the Management Discipline Committee for appropriate action (penalty 5-year suspension and a $2,000.00 fine).
> In cases where an exclusion resulted from intent and/or knowledge of the breeder/owner, staff may seek suspension after confirming the first exclusion*.
> 
> So it looks like the inspector went to Gap View, took DNA samples from the litters that were there and found that in 2 cases, the DNA of the pups did not match the DNA of the dogs that were supposed to be their parents. Curious to know if they paid the additional $250 fee to find out which parents actually sired those litters.


----------



## NuttinButGoldens

My Comet, who lived 12 perfectly healthy years and was a wonderful dog, came from there. The purchase experience was excellent, and the papers/certifications were in order. But it was under different ownership at the time.

I personally would not buy a puppy there now, and I'm sad to say forever at this point.



Riley05 said:


> Has anyone out there gotten a puppy from gapview lately? I was just wondering if you have had any problems or any concerns with your puppy. I see that a lot of people are concerned about their practices, but is anyone a customer of recent that could put in their thoughts? Thanks!


----------



## NuttinButGoldens

I can tell you that back in 1995 it was also a large breeding operation. However the dogs were very well cared for from what I could tell during my visits. I cannot tell you what has transpired since Howard sold out to his partner due to a family emergency (My understanding is that Dave Liskey was his partner even back then).

Comet's pop was "Dakota", a big brawny deep Red field dog that I swear could jump 9 feet in the air to catch a frisbee LOL. At the time Dakota was 7.5 years old and about to be retired, and Howard said he was going to be his next "house dog". Comet's mom was "Las Vegas".

I was told last year when I was looking for a pup that they still had dogs with Dakota's Lineage in them, and since my Comet was such a wonderful, perfect Golden his entire life, I was interested.

Then all this stuff came out and I sadly had to pass. The prices had also _tripled _since I got Comet.




Riley05 said:


> Yes, I am interested in a Golden. I grew up with them my entire life and since I have moved out of my family's home I have wanted one of my own. I am finally in the right place in my life to get one. Thanks for such a warm welcome!
> 
> About Gapview, it does seem they have a lot of dogs on their premises. However, everything seems to be very clean and the website seems to be pretty informative. They also allow anyone to visit anytime, which leads me to believe they are not trying to hide anything. I am just curious because of all the bad things being said (mostly bad practices), it appears that anyone that has gotten a dog from there has had nothing but great things to say.
> 
> What exactly did they get suspended for from the AKC? They just didn't provide the correct information their dogs? It kind of lost me, I am new to all of this stuff. Thanks for all the quick responses and all of the help!


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## NuttinButGoldens

It _used _to be this way.

When I was there in 1995 the Mom and Pups had their own straw 'room' where they grew up and were mothered. It was a long-barn type of setup and I believe there were 4 or 5 'rooms'.

It may be entirely different now.



BeauShel said:


> So what that tells me is that puppies are not kept in seperate kennels with their mother away from other litters, but I am not a breeder.And with so many litters on the ground at one time, I would not be surprised to see that happen. I am not certain.


----------



## NuttinButGoldens

This is one part of the whole deal (and I'm leaving the whole Gap View discussion here for a bit) where I'm not 100% sold on.

Showing.

I'm not convinced that showing (ring or field) is absolutely necessary. If the Mom and Pop have all the proper clearances, and there is good history behind them, then I'm not so sure I care about the show thing at all.

Rusty was a farm dog. Nikita was a Pet Shop dog (before I knew better). Comet was from field lines, and came from Gap View in 1996. Dakota was a BYB dog that I traded a guitar amplifier for.

Speaking strictly on temperament, all of them were exceptionally well-rounded, wonderful dogs except possibly Nikita. She was good, but could be a bit of a bitch if she wanted to be 

Of my current two:

*Gilmour *- Gilmour is as pure and properly bred as any Golden can possibly be. He comes from Pebwin and Lycinnan lines. He was bred by a breeder that has over 40 years experience, and is also an AKC Judge. In just his 5 generation pedigree, he has over _forty-three _champions and multi-champions, which includes the famous Mulder (Pebwin-XPDNC is his grandfather).

Gilmour is a wonderful dog. I really could not ask for anything more. He is a smaller golden, on the lower end of the proper weight range (65 pounds of pure muscle), but I actually adore him for that. He has a cute factor of 10  He meets the proper Golden specs in all respects.

But if I'm being honest, I also have to say he is an exceptionally high energy Golden. He can also be hard headed  Some may call him a bit high-strung, but I don't like that term because his temperament is perfect. He's simply a power-packed pooch LOL I would not change a thing about him, but it also would not bother me if he mellowed a bit as he aged.

*Milo *- The classic BYB dog. Re-homed to me at 8 months by a family expecting a baby. Parents cleared, but no show/field trial history at all that I know of. He is of the field variety. He is such a big, lovable goofball everyone he meets just adores him. He lives for his toys. He has to bring one to bed with him every night. If the one he wants is 2 feet away, he still hops and pounces on it like a bunny rabbit  He is absolutely stuffed full of character.

And he also has the ability to take everything Gilmour can dish out play wise, which is a _ton_, and hand it right back.

So, is Show/Field Trials important to a dog's temperament? I still don't know. To be honest, the personal experience I have shows just the opposite.

And I also have to say that the most loving, goofy, wonderful-temperament Goldens I've met have all been of the field variety. But I also have to say that of the very few 'mean' Golden's I've ever met, the nastiest of the bunch were also field Golden's. I have no idea what the hell that means 



Bender said:


> None of the dogs they use for breeding are shown, so add possible training issues (if the parents aren't trained and/or socialized, they don't need to have good temperments, and if they don't have them they can't pass them on)


----------



## AmbikaGR

NuttinButGoldens said:


> This is one part of the whole deal (and I'm leaving the whole Gap View discussion here for a bit) where I'm not 100% sold on.
> 
> Showing.
> 
> I'm not convinced that showing (ring or field) is absolutely necessary. If the Mom and Pop have all the proper clearances, and there is good history behind them, then I'm not so sure I care about the show thing at all.


But with "showing" you can lose that "type" and "temperament" that make a Golden a Golden. I can understand that when it comes to your pet it does not matter to you, but it really should. Without it we could lose the Golden. 
Now "showing" does not have to mean acquiring a breed championship or a field title. But it should meet the "Standard" and be able to do what it was originally bred to do. There are those involved with genetics that truly believe breeders can be asking for problems when they attempt to breed away from certain things (hip dysplasia being just one). We have no way to know what else the gene that may be responsible for HD is also contributing to. Could it be tied to temperament? Who knows. That is why the experienced, long time breeders are SO important to the breed. They do understand these things and that everything breeding is not black ad white but sometimes gray.


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## NuttinButGoldens

Sorry folks, I just realized this is a "Vampire Thread". Please disregard any postings I may have made that are duplicates of month's prior


----------



## NuttinButGoldens

I agree 100% that the parents, and hopefully the pups, meet the Golden Standard to the letter. No argument there 

And I can also agree 100% that showing helps the breeder 'understand' the potential parents a lot more, in regards to temperament etc... and would assist breeders in setting up the perfect pairing. You would also have to assume that all the show breeders actually _do _that.

What I'm not sure of is whether the temperament of a dog can be altered _by _showing it, and if that altered temperament can be passed down to pups. I'm particularly not sure about that last part.

In a way, we're talking about dog Psychology here, and Genetics, and since I can't figure my own head out sometimes who am I to say LOL





AmbikaGR said:


> But with "showing" you can lose that "type" and "temperament" that make a Golden a Golden. I can understand that when it comes to your pet it does not matter to you, but it really should. Without it we could lose the Golden.
> Now "showing" does not have to mean acquiring a breed championship or a field title. But it should meet the "Standard" and be able to do what it was originally bred to do. There are those involved with genetics that truly believe breeders can be asking for problems when they attempt to breed away from certain things (hip dysplasia being just one). We have no way to know what else the gene that may be responsible for HD is also contributing to. Could it be tied to temperament? Who knows. That is why the experienced, long time breeders are SO important to the breed. They do understand these things and that everything breeding is not black ad white but sometimes gray.


----------



## Lilliam

Vampire thread? OK - I'm curious what that means... ????


----------



## NuttinButGoldens

Awakened from the dead


----------



## Jersey's Mom

NuttinButGoldens said:


> I agree 100% that the parents, and hopefully the pups, meet the Golden Standard to the letter. No argument there
> 
> And I can also agree 100% that showing helps the breeder 'understand' the potential parents a lot more, in regards to temperament etc... and would assist breeders in setting up the perfect pairing. You would also have to assume that all the show breeders actually _do _that.
> 
> What I'm not sure of is whether the temperament of a dog can be altered _by _showing it, and if that altered temperament can be passed down to pups. I'm particularly not sure about that last part.
> 
> In a way, we're talking about dog Psychology here, and Genetics, and since I can't figure my own head out sometimes who am I to say LOL


No, I don't think a dog's temperament is altered by showing it, and I don't think that's the point. Showing a dog in one or more venues allows the breeder to assess the dog and compare it to others. If a dog is capable of being shown to a high level of obedience, agility, or especially field -- that says something about the dog's temperament and drive. If a dog is able to pass the CCA it says something about the dog's basic temperament and structure. If a dog is able to accumulate points leading toward a conformation Championship, it says something primarily about structure, and to some extent temperament as well. Getting out into the world and assessing your dog against the requirements of any of these venues, as well as assessing them against other dogs, is the best defense we have against kennel blindness. It says something concrete about these dogs that goes beyond the breeder's necessarily biased opinion. 

Does that make sense? I feel like I'm rambling, LOL. In hopes of being more clear: showing a dog is not about changing it's temperament, but rather about proving what you have to work with.

Julie and Jersey


----------



## bigds01

tippykayak said:


> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showpost.php?p=971028&postcount=153



You know I just noticed my post was being used against dave. Again, I just bought a great dog from him, and think most people here are arrogant twits. I asked for a breeder multiple times before finding gap view on this forum. Guess how many recommendations I got? 0. 

So in other words, shut up, enjoy your dogs.


----------



## bigds01

tippykayak said:


> I certainly don't know if that user is you, but it was certainly somebody who acted very oddly and defended your kennel in a way that suggested he was affiliated with it.



No, it was someone who takes libel very seriously and believes that is what the people on this forum were doing.


Last post for now.


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## AmbikaGR

bigds01 said:


> You know I just noticed my post was being used against dave. Again, I just bought a great dog from him, and think most people here are arrogant twits. I asked for a breeder multiple times before finding gap view on this forum. Guess how many recommendations I got? 0.
> 
> So in other words, shut up, enjoy your dogs.



Having a bad day???


----------



## AmbikaGR

bigds01 said:


> . I asked for a breeder multiple times before finding gap view on this forum. Guess how many recommendations I got? 0.


In all the 48 posts prior to this that you have made here under your bigds01 screen name I do not recall you ever asking for a breeder recommendation. If my memory is correct your first post on this forum was in regard to you had just put a deposit on a dog with Gap View. You already had a breeder.

So why would you say you got 0 recommendations for breeders here?


----------



## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> You know I just noticed my post was being used against dave. Again, I just bought a great dog from him, and think most people here are arrogant twits. I asked for a breeder multiple times before finding gap view on this forum. Guess how many recommendations I got? 0.
> 
> So in other words, shut up, enjoy your dogs.


Yada yada yada blah blah blah.

Love,

Pointgold


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## PC Mom

vampire board! Back from the dead for sure!


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## Pointgold

PC Mom said:


> vampire board! Back from the dead for sure!


 
This guy shows up whenever the real GapView cannot defend himself and his breeding "practices" (read that any male + female = puppies).


----------



## tippykayak

bigds01 said:


> No, it was someone who takes libel very seriously and believes that is what the people on this forum were doing.
> 
> 
> Last post for now.


By definition, a statement is not libelous if it is true. That was establsihed back in the 18th century at the trial of John Peter Zenger. If you want to call something libelous, you need to first establish that it is false.


----------



## Gap View Goldens

*Suspension Lifted*

For those of you who are interested, I have passed my AKC inspection (never failed one) and the suspension has been lifted. As always, I welcome phone calls from anyone who would like to discuss anything. Like I've mentioned before, I don't spend a lot of time on the computer, so a phone call is best if you want to talk with me - Dave


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## Mssjnnfer

Great. Uninformed puppy buyers beware.


----------



## damita

If the suspension was for 6 months and started in February - how would it be lifted? Seems to me that simply your time out by the AKC is over - still guilty just have simply done your time.


----------



## Pointgold

Gap View Goldens said:


> For those of you who are interested, I have passed my AKC inspection (never failed one) and the suspension has been lifted. As always, I welcome phone calls from anyone who would like to discuss anything. Like I've mentioned before, I don't spend a lot of time on the computer, so a phone call is best if you want to talk with me - Dave


 
And when was/will this be published? Because it is not in the AKC's September Secretary Pages. Or, perhaps you would like to post it here, given it is _such _good news...


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## BorzoiMom

Gap View Goldens said:


> For those of you who are interested, I have passed my AKC inspection (never failed one) and the suspension has been lifted. As always, I welcome phone calls from anyone who would like to discuss anything. Like I've mentioned before, I don't spend a lot of time on the computer, so a phone call is best if you want to talk with me - Dave


"Lifted" is not the same as " restored" or reversed the order to suspension. Being in Va., and knowing that area of the state, it must have been really bad for a suspension as evidence is hard to get in that area.. That is all I am saying... 



damita said:


> If the suspension was for 6 months and started in February - how would it be lifted? Seems to me that simply your time out by the AKC is over - still guilty just have simply done your time.


And yes- they simply did their time of suspension. It was the length of the 'sentence" ie- late August and now its September. 
Also AKC inspection is bad news as they only do that to really bad situations. And nor is that a HS Inspection either.


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## Pointgold

I just love these HVB hacks who think they can double talk their way out of anything. They may be able to fool the unsuspecting general public, but there are an awful lot of us who have been playing the game by following the rules for a lot longer than they have been suckering people.
They all make me want to vomit.


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## AmbikaGR

And beware that passing an AKC inspection does not make a breeder responsible. And the fact that you were suspended for 6 months for 

"*having submitted or caused to be submitted two litter registration applications that they knew, should have known, or had a duty to know contained false certifications (DNA exclusion)"*

still speaks volumes to me. I would have much rather you posted that you had changed your way to doing things responsibly as was discussed in this thread and as described in the Golden Retriever Club of America's Code of Ethics. Oh well one can dream can't they. 

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...puppy/57638-gap-view-kennels-broadway-va.html





Gap View Goldens said:


> For those of you who are interested, I have passed my AKC inspection (never failed one) and the suspension has been lifted. As always, I welcome phone calls from anyone who would like to discuss anything. Like I've mentioned before, I don't spend a lot of time on the computer, so a phone call is best if you want to talk with me - Dave


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## BorzoiMom

PointGold- the term " HVB Hacks"- what exactly does that mean?


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## AmbikaGR

borzoimom said:


> PointGold- the term " HVB Hacks"- what exactly does that mean?



HVB - High Volume Breeder

Hacks - a person, as an artist or writer, who exploits, for money, his or her creative ability or training in the production of dull, unimaginative, and trite work; one who produces banal and mediocre work in the hope of gaining commercial success in the arts: As a painter, he was little more than a hack.


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## Pointgold

borzoimom said:


> PointGold- the term " HVB Hacks"- what exactly does that mean?


*H*igh *V*olume *B*reeder

Hack - (jargon) 1. n. Originally, a quick job that produces what is needed, but not well.
An untalented professional.


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## BorzoiMom

AmbikaGR said:


> HVB - High Volume Breeder
> 
> Hacks - a person, as an artist or writer, who exploits, for money, his or her creative ability or training in the production of dull, unimaginative, and trite work; one who produces banal and mediocre work in the hope of gaining commercial success in the arts: As a painter, he was little more than a hack.





Pointgold said:


> *H*igh *V*olume *B*reeder
> 
> Hack - (jargon) 1. n. Originally, a quick job that produces what is needed, but not well.
> An untalented professional.


Thank you... 

GapView- in order to have charges on registrations, allow me to point something out. 
IN order for the AKC to investigate a kennel registry, someone else had to put up 500 dollars ( ie they better have evidence) then the AKC does the investigation by testing the dogs involved. 
If it turns out the registrations were fraudulant, then the persons/people that put up the 500 dollars gets their money back.. 

So this didn't happen over night. There must have been a group of people that had suspects of registrations involved. And the two litters in subject of, were the only ones tested as the ones inquired about. Think about it. YOu can not sweep this under the rug. It won't go away. You have made 'your bed'...


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## Pointgold

borzoimom said:


> Thank you...
> 
> GapView- in order to have charges on registrations, allow me to point something out.
> IN order for the AKC to investigate a kennel registry, someone else had to put up 500 dollars ( ie they better have evidence) then the AKC does the investigation by testing the dogs involved.
> If it turns out the registrations were fraudulant, then the persons/people that put up the 500 dollars gets their money back..
> 
> So this didn't happen over night. There must have been a group of people that had suspects of registrations involved. And the two litters in subject of, were the only ones tested as the ones inquired about. Think about it. YOu can not sweep this under the rug. It won't go away. You have made 'your bed'...


 
Yeah, well, remember - this is the "breeder" who simply puts an intact male in with a bitch in season, and another male "accidentally" got in with them and bred the bitch, without _any_one's knowledge. Uh huh. As if the two males just drew straws, or played paper/scossors/rock to determine which one got to breed her. No fight, nuthin'... :doh:


----------



## thenansels

Our first agility Golden came from Gap View in the mid 90's when Chuck Howard still owned it. She attained her MX, MXJ before we lost her to cancer at the age of 10. She was a great dog.

I have no experience with the current owner, but I did meet one of his puppies in Petsmart last week. The female pup was in Petsmart with a young woman who told me that the puppy would be turning 6 weeks old the next day. She told me the birthdate. I asked her if she had talked the breeder into letting her take the puppy home early for some reason. She said she hadn't, that the breeder had told her the puppy was "developmentally ready" to leave it's mother and go to its new home. I wonder if Mr. Liskey knows that it is illegal to sell a puppy that young in Virginia? Not to mention unethical....what responsible breeder sells 5 week old puppies?


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## AmbikaGR

Welcome to the GRF!!!:wavey:




thenansels said:


> ....what responsible breeder sells 5 week old puppies?



Absolutely none! :no:


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## Sally's Mom

Wow, that is unbelievable. And terribly unethical... although I know first hand once the pups are 4-5 weeks, they become work!


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## BorzoiMom

It is illegal and whoever the person was should report them to their county HS for sure!


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## NuttinButGoldens

That's about when I got Comet from there. Was she from the Dakota/Las Vegas pairing by chance?



thenansels said:


> Our first agility Golden came from Gap View in the mid 90's when Chuck Howard still owned it. She attained her MX, MXJ before we lost her to cancer at the age of 10. She was a great dog.
> 
> I have no experience with the current owner, but I did meet one of his puppies in Petsmart last week. The female pup was in Petsmart with a young woman who told me that the puppy would be turning 6 weeks old the next day. She told me the birthdate. I asked her if she had talked the breeder into letting her take the puppy home early for some reason. She said she hadn't, that the breeder had told her the puppy was "developmentally ready" to leave it's mother and go to its new home. I wonder if Mr. Liskey knows that it is illegal to sell a puppy that young in Virginia? Not to mention unethical....what responsible breeder sells 5 week old puppies?


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## clh88888

My parents got 2 Goldens from Gap View. Cody is 8 years old and her only health problem so far (knock on wood) is thyroid issues. She definitely has the sweet golden temperament, but she is still incredibly hyper. She's also not a very smart dog - there's not a whole lot going on upstairs other than "Throw the ball!" 

They brought Kelsey home from Gap View when Cody was about 18 months old. Kelsey certainly had the look, temperament, and smarts of a Golden, but the poor girl battled health nightmare after health nightmare. She suffered from regular seizures, kidney disease, a horrendous reaction to vaccination that she survived by a hair, and then finally succumbed to nasal cancer last January at 5 years old.

Needless to say, their next Golden will *NOT* come from Gap View...


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## luv_my_goldens

*Gap View Ranch and Kennel is great. The AKC understands accidents happen.*

Gap View Ranch and Kennel is not suspended by the AKC. They did have an incident where one of their male dogs unknowingly jumped a 7ft fence and bred a female without the owner knowing it had happened - They are athletic animals it could happen to any breeder. As soon as he heard what happened he and the AKC had the puppies DNA tested and dealt with the issue as they would with any respectable breeder. We all know things happen that are out of your control from time to time. On the bright side, the puppies still had great genetics behind the dog that sired them.

I know tons of people who have Gap View puppies and they can't say enough good things about the quality of the Goldens they produce. All you have to do is read the guestbook on their website to understand people are very satisfied with the dogs from Gap View.

Just thought I'd chime in because it sounded like some people on here were trying to discredit other breeders for their own gain. Now, that's a misuse of this forum.


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## CarolinaCasey

luv_my_goldens said:


> Gap View Ranch and Kennel is not suspended by the AKC. They did have an incident where one of their male dogs unknowingly jumped a 7ft fence and bred a female without the owner knowing it had happened - They are athletic animals it could happen to any breeder. As soon as he heard what happened he and the AKC had the puppies DNA tested and dealt with the issue as they would with any respectable breeder. We all know things happen that are out of your control from time to time. On the bright side, the puppies still had great genetics behind the dog that sired them.
> 
> I know tons of people who have Gap View puppies and they can't say enough good things about the quality of the Goldens they produce. All you have to do is read the guestbook on their website to understand people are very satisfied with the dogs from Gap View.
> 
> *Just thought I'd chime in because it sounded like some people on here were trying to discredit other breeders for their own gain. Now, that's a misuse of this forum. *


No way! It is about educating the public and making sure that they find the best breeders and healthiest puppies out there. No one here is advertising their litters or available puppies. They don't need to.

It still doesn't matter to me if they in fact do all of their clearances--- they just have so, so many breeding dogs and a staff to boot. That isn't the kind of breeder that a lot of people want their puppy to come from. How can each puppy get the socialization it needs? How can you be bettering the breed with EVERY breeding when you're doing it so frequently? You can't. How is it that the *best *stud for your bitch, that complements her better than any other stud coincidentally is from your kennel? Not likely, but yet that's what they do.


----------



## Bender

luv_my_goldens said:


> Gap View Ranch and Kennel is not suspended by the AKC. They did have an incident where one of their male dogs unknowingly jumped a 7ft fence and bred a female without the owner knowing it had happened - They are athletic animals it could happen to any breeder. As soon as he heard what happened he and the AKC had the puppies DNA tested and dealt with the issue as they would with any respectable breeder. We all know things happen that are out of your control from time to time. On the bright side, the puppies still had great genetics behind the dog that sired them.
> 
> I know tons of people who have Gap View puppies and they can't say enough good things about the quality of the Goldens they produce. All you have to do is read the guestbook on their website to understand people are very satisfied with the dogs from Gap View.
> 
> Just thought I'd chime in because it sounded like some people on here were trying to discredit other breeders for their own gain. Now, that's a misuse of this forum.



Well I have nothing to 'gain' from saying they look to be a pretty poor, high volume breeder who seems to do nothing but breed their dogs, clearances 'optional' (meaning they do some but not all, leading me to think that the dog failed whichever was missing or they didn't bother to do them all). 

This might be interesting anyway, gotta love the people who come on here with nothing in mind but trying to defend themselves under the name of 'a friend of the breeder'.....:doh:


----------



## luv_my_goldens

*7 weeks is the earliest I've known him to send puppies home.*



NuttinButGoldens said:


> That's about when I got Comet from there. Was she from the Dakota/Las Vegas pairing by chance?


In my experience 7 weeks is the earliest he would let us take a puppy home. If you saw someone at pets smart with a 5-6 week old puppy then maybe someone in the kennel messed up. I know several people who prefer to get their puppies at 5-6 weeks, but I think they need the extra socialization time with their mom and litter mates. 

I'll mention this to Dave and see if he was aware somebody took their puppy home early. It could have happend when he was between kennel assistants?


----------



## Sally's Mom

My sister got an English Cocker where parentage had to be determined. The AKC did not suspend that breeder...I smell something fishy.


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## FinnTastic

luv_my_goldens said:


> In my experience 7 weeks is the earliest he would let us take a puppy home. If you saw someone at pets smart with a 5-6 week old puppy then maybe someone in the kennel messed up. I know several people who prefer to get their puppies at 5-6 weeks, but I think they need the extra socialization time with their mom and litter mates.
> 
> I'll mention this to Dave and see if he was aware somebody took their puppy home early. It could have happend when he was between kennel assistants?


Staff might of messed up? That says it all there.:no:


----------



## luv_my_goldens

*Stories always grow, the facts get changed, and then people pass on misinformation.*



Pointgold said:


> Yeah, well, remember - this is the "breeder" who simply puts an intact male in with a bitch in season, and another male "accidentally" got in with them and bred the bitch, without _any_one's knowledge. Uh huh. As if the two males just drew straws, or played paper/scossors/rock to determine which one got to breed her. No fight, nuthin'... :doh:


You make it sound like Dave left the door open on his Dams kennel and said have at it boy. The dog that jumped the fence is very athletic (I've got a picture of him hanging-out with his front legs over the top of his old 7 foot high enclosure). There is no question in my mind he was able to jump into her kennel. And Dave is present when he breeds his dogs. 

Do you breed dogs/Goldens? If so you must know that when a female is in heat dogs will come from far and wide to breed a bitch. And yes, jumping a fence is among the very small obstacles they will go through to get to a female.


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## ragtym

luv_my_goldens said:


> Just thought I'd chime in because it sounded like some people on here were trying to discredit other breeders for their own gain. Now, that's a misuse of this forum.


Once again, why is this claim ALWAYS made when people start asking questions about questionable breeding programs? 

Is there a handbook out there that says - "if someone questions your breeding program, they are obviously jealous and trying to discredit you so that they can sell more puppies. You must accuse them of this immediately and ignore any questions they have, no matter how valid those questions might be"?

BTW, it was not ONE litter in question, it was TWO. That's some athletic sire he has there...


----------



## ragtym

luv_my_goldens said:


> Do you breed dogs/Goldens? If so you must know that when a female is in heat dogs will come from far and wide to breed a bitch. And yes, jumping a fence is among the very small obstacles they will go through to get to a female.


And responsible breeders will not leave a bitch in heat in a kennel with no top on it because of this very thing...


----------



## Kmullen

I have to say I have really enjoyed reading this thread! It has been very interesting! 

I think we all know that the breeder in question is not responsible! He has TONNNSSSS of dogs on his website and I went and did a little searching on OFFA.org and only found 5 with hip certifications!! And I do not think he has ALL 5 at his kennel. 

If he knew the dog was AGGRESSIVE...then being a responsible breeder would have done something about it way back when.

It also makes me believe that if AKC found out the litters were not sired by whom they said they were sired by...I wonder how many more litters there were like this!

It does not surprise me that he lets the pups go at 5 weeks at all...the reason being he is not a responsible breeder. 

I have checked out K9 data and the last year I see any gap view goldens registered was back either in 2007 or 2008! Not sure why that is.

I really hope that it is not true that the helpers just let the pups go to the owners. If I were paying money (not sure how much he charges) I would want the owner/breeder there! What kind of breeder just lets the helpers release the pups....Maybe he should stop breeding because it sounds like he is too busy for them anyways.


----------



## Pointgold

luv_my_goldens said:


> You make it sound like Dave left the door open on his Dams kennel and said have at it boy. The dog that jumped the fence is very athletic (I've got a picture of him hanging-out with his front legs over the top of his old 7 foot high enclosure). There is no question in my mind he was able to jump into her kennel. And Dave is present when he breeds his dogs.
> 
> Do you breed dogs/Goldens? If so you must know that when a female is in heat dogs will come from far and wide to breed a bitch. And yes, jumping a fence is among the very small obstacles they will go through to get to a female.


Ya know, it gets harder and harder to be polite about stuff like this, really.
Here's the thing, pal. Your man Dave himself actually posted a completely different story about how this happened. 
Dave in fact does simply put a dog in with a bitch in season, rather than have someone handling the breeding. And in this case, he himself said that it happened twice, and he didn't even know til the dna tests were done. And even if I were not a dog/Golden breeder, any half wit would question how TWO intact males could be in the same pen with one bitch in standing season, attempting to breed her, without there being a horrific fight. I find it very, very difficult to believe...

Here's your man's post:

Originally Posted by *Gap View Goldens*  
_I logged into my email this morning to find some messages from the forum. So I'll address the issue like you're asking - here is the notice from AKC:_

_*Notice*_
_*The AKC’s Management Disciplinary*_
_*Committee has suspended the following individuals*_
_*from all AKC privileges for six months*_
_*and imposed a fine of $500 for having submitted*_
_*or caused to be submitted two litter registration*_
_*applications that they knew, should have*_
_*known, or had a duty to know contained false*_
_*certifications (DNA exclusion):*_
_*Effective February 17, 2010*_
_*Mr. David Liskey, A.K.A. Dave Liskey*_
_*(Broadway, VA) Golden Retriever*_

_This was not intentional. It happened because I wasn't watching and my dog Clyde climbed over his pen into Sampson's pen while Sampson was with a female to be bred. This happened twice and I didn't realize what had happened until after DNA testing had been done. The last litter to be registered incorrectly was born 3 years ago and AKC did not find out about it until recently when they tested a dog from that litter. Clyde's DNA is on file with the AKC, and they provided corrections to the litters he sired. _

_When I found out what happened, I made changes immediately, but it could not take back what had happened....lesson learned._


----------



## Enzos_Mom

Pointgold said:


> And even if I were not a dog/Golden breeder, any half wit would question how TWO intact males could be in the same pen with one bitch in standing season, attempting to breed her, without there being a horrific fight.



:appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl:


----------



## tippykayak

luv_my_goldens said:


> You make it sound like Dave left the door open on his Dams kennel and said have at it boy. The dog that jumped the fence is very athletic (I've got a picture of him hanging-out with his front legs over the top of his old 7 foot high enclosure). There is no question in my mind he was able to jump into her kennel. And Dave is present when he breeds his dogs.
> 
> Do you breed dogs/Goldens? If so you must know that when a female is in heat dogs will come from far and wide to breed a bitch. And yes, jumping a fence is among the very small obstacles they will go through to get to a female.


Unless the dog jumped BACK OUT of the enclosure afterwards, like a sexy ninja, Mr. Liskey would have to have known that a second dog had gotten at the bitch. He then ignored this fact and registered the dogs improperly.

Then, it all happened AGAIN! Fool me once...

Accidental breedings happen, even to very careful breeders. That's not the problem. It's the holes in the story and the willful registering of dogs with knowledge that more than one dog had gotten at the bitch.


----------



## tippykayak

luv_my_goldens said:


> Gap View Ranch and Kennel is not suspended by the AKC.


They were. Mr. Liskey confirmed it himself and information about the suspension is available in the AKC's public materials. If you're referring to the fact that the suspension was temporary, nobody has denied that. Read the whole thread.



luv_my_goldens said:


> They did have an incident where one of their male dogs unknowingly jumped a 7ft fence and bred a female without the owner knowing it had happened - They are athletic animals it could happen to any breeder. As soon as he heard what happened he and the AKC had the puppies DNA tested and dealt with the issue as they would with any respectable breeder.


This is not consistent with what the AKC suspension states nor with what Mr. Liskey said. Again, you need to read the whole thread. The AKC does not suspend you for having an accidental breeding. It was misregistering a litter, TWICE, that was the problem. If the wrong dog gets at a bitch, that can happen, even to the best breeder.

However, when you ignore that fact and incorrectly register the puppies anyway, that's when you have a problem. Apparently this happened at least twice. That's not an innocent mistake. It's careless at best. What other aspects of this operation are subject to this carelessness?



luv_my_goldens said:


> Just thought I'd chime in because it sounded like some people on here were trying to discredit other breeders for their own gain. Now, that's a misuse of this forum.


Nobody in this thread is in any kind of competition with Gap View. They don't compete in any showing or working venue, so there's no competition there, and nobody on the forum (to my knowledge) sells dogs for profit in that area. Most of us aren't breeders at all.

One of the main purposes of the forum to educate people about the breed. And one of the most pertinent topics of that education is what makes an ethical breeder of great, healthy dogs. A large operation, by definition, is not the kind of place that the GRCA suggests you get a dog, precisely because of the kinds problems that have shown up in reference to Gap View, like not knowing which dogs are actually siring a litter, not having adequate health checks and socialization of puppies, not competing in any venue to help prove and improve your animals, lack of incentive to have complete multigenerational clearances on all breedings, etc.


----------



## ragtym

*Sorry, have the giggles now *



tippykayak said:


> Unless the dog jumped BACK OUT of the enclosure afterwards, like a sexy ninja...


Sexy ninja??











"I'm coming to get you baby!"


----------



## Lilliam

luv_my_goldens said:


> Gap View Ranch and Kennel is not suspended by the AKC. They did have an incident where one of their male dogs unknowingly jumped a 7ft fence and bred a female without the owner knowing it had happened - They are athletic animals it could happen to any breeder. As soon as he heard what happened he and the AKC had the puppies DNA tested and dealt with the issue as they would with any respectable breeder. We all know things happen that are out of your control from time to time. On the bright side, the puppies still had great genetics behind the dog that sired them.
> 
> I know tons of people who have Gap View puppies and they can't say enough good things about the quality of the Goldens they produce. All you have to do is read the guestbook on their website to understand people are very satisfied with the dogs from Gap View.
> 
> Just thought I'd chime in because it sounded like some people on here were trying to discredit other breeders for their own gain. Now, that's a misuse of this forum.


I'm not a breeder, OK? Why would this establishment sell puppies at such a young age, and at Petsmart, no less???? Would I be able to go visit the premises? Highly doubtful.
And what moron keeps a female in season in an enclosure without roof?


----------



## Sally's Mom

I just got on the Gap View website for the first time. Four litters listed born in November, one born in December...seems like a lot to take care of and socialize properly. I also recognize Maine breeder kennel names in some of their dogs(Willowbrook, Twin Oaks) and then obviously some of the bigger more national kennel names. There is nothing on the site that would make me personally want one of their dogs.


----------



## Pointgold

No "attention to detail", apparently. For all the talk about how conscientious he is, aside from supposedly not knowing that a dog got into a pen with another intact male left in there to breed a bitch (no fight, right...) - twice, yet - this is the guy who also didn't notice a puppy missing a toe. Either did the expert staff (including a vet tech). Nor did the veterinarian who supposedly goes over these pups nose to tail prior to them leaving.


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## 3boyz2keep

We purchased our Golden from Gap View in 2007-sad to hear that there have been issues. We couldn't be more in love with our dog but want the integrity of the breed to be protected first and foremost.


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## Ljilly28

3boyz2keep said:


> OK-I'm calling on the experts on this board. We purchased our golden from Gap View Kennels in 2007. The contract we were given has our puppy's AKC registration number handwritten in on the contract. I searched the number on the AKC site and have found that that number has never been registered. We were given copies of the parents certificates and they are in fact registered with valid AKC numbers, the search on the site verified this. However, the AKC registration number we were given for our puppy does not appear to be valid. We never received anything else from the AKC.
> 
> What to do?


Tahnee, Arcane, and Pointgold and the other breeders will have a great answer. Did you have papers you were asked to send to the AKC yourself? Usually, you receive the paperwork, and follow through by sending the info and a check to AKC or doing it online. In a week or two, you get a package with all kinds of info and a pedigree.


----------



## Pointgold

3boyz2keep said:


> We purchased our Golden from Gap View in 2007-sad to hear that there have been issues. We couldn't be more in love with our dog but want the integrity of the breed to be protected first and foremost.


 
Were you ever given a registration application? This is like the title for a car... you complete the information, in this case, what you want your dog's registered name to be, and your name and address as owner. The breeder has signed it, indicating that they have transferred the dog to you. 
If you did NOT receive this, then there has been a fraud committed...if you paid for an AKC registerable dog, and they simply wrote an invalid number on a contract, that is worth nothing.
It looks like this:


----------



## luv_my_goldens

*It is an interesting topic.*



tippykayak said:


> They were. Mr. Liskey confirmed it himself and information about the suspension is available in the AKC's public materials. If you're referring to the fact that the suspension was temporary, nobody has denied that. Read the whole thread.
> 
> I have read much of it now and it's nice to see that people do understand that he was eventually cleared by the AKC. Suggesting that he has his hand in their back pocket somehow, is quite a leap of faith and very misleading. I'm sure if it were possible then why would anyone want to compete to in AKC events. They would all be rigged and therefore the AKC would be discredited and your certification not worth the paper it's written on. So, let's not speculate without facts.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not consistent with what the AKC suspension states nor with what Mr. Liskey said. Again, you need to read the whole thread. The AKC does not suspend you for having an accidental breeding. It was misregistering a litter, TWICE, that was the problem. If the wrong dog gets at a bitch, that can happen, even to the best breeder.
> 
> However, when you ignore that fact and incorrectly register the puppies anyway, that's when you have a problem. Apparently this happened at least twice. That's not an innocent mistake. It's careless at best. What other aspects of this operation are subject to this carelessness?
> 
> I'm glad you pointed out that if you ignore the fact and incorrectly register the puppies then it's carelessness. Since Dave had no idea the dog bred his dam, even if it did happen twice as you state (I haven't read evidence of that yet, guess I need to dig into this forum deeper to find that post) he did not knowingly register an improper sired dam. Stating that he did know is just speculation again. The fact that the AKC had to temporary suspend him is just because he registered the dogs as one normally would after having breed them to the sire you thought bred them. His dog clyde according to Dave would be in his pen where he was supposed to be, as it does happen to anyone that owns a dog, a dog does get out of it's enclosure and you find it outside or at your door step wagging it's tail wouldn't make you think your dog had accidentally bred a dog in that time. After all, how would you even know the dog was capable of jumping such a high fence to get in with the female if you've never seen it done before. Again, one shouldn't jump to conclusions on assumptions or speculations.
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody in this thread is in any kind of competition with Gap View. They don't compete in any showing or working venue, so there's no competition there, and nobody on the forum (to my knowledge) sells dogs for profit in that area. Most of us aren't breeders at all.
> 
> One of the main purposes of the forum to educate people about the breed. And one of the most pertinent topics of that education is what makes an ethical breeder of great, healthy dogs. A large operation, by definition, is not the kind of place that the GRCA suggests you get a dog, precisely because of the kinds problems that have shown up in reference to Gap View, like not knowing which dogs are actually siring a litter, not having adequate health checks and socialization of puppies, not competing in any venue to help prove and improve your animals, lack of incentive to have complete multigenerational clearances on all breedings, etc.


I too like the fact that this forum is about educating people about golden retrievers. And no body likes a big breeders like the ones who sale to puppy stores or even backyard breeders that bred dogs without any knowledge or cares for genetics and it's affects on the puppies. I'm just saying to my knowledge Dave is non of the above and runs a very sound kennel. He has "staff" because it is not just a breeding business he runs. Again, where people should not make assumptions and give misinformation. If you visit Dave's kennel you will notice the word "Ranch" in it's name. It is Gap View Ranch and Kennel. Dave owns a several hundred acre ranch where he has many livestock and needs help to maintain it just as any farmer does. And he has extra help in the kennel because Dave Boards dogs in his kennel. He does not breed dogs in his house and refer to himself as a breeder as many people do. How is that socialization of dogs when they never see any visitors. He has the proper facilities to be breeding dogs, it is a kennel with all the necessary equipment, fencing, vets, and yes a staff to make sure all the dogs in his care are properly taken care of. His staff consist of a groomer, an assistant to make and maintain schedules for vet visits and to help educated potential adoptive parents on what to expect and know before purchasing a golden retriever etc. 

And Daves dogs are from all over the united states and are all from Champion competition backgrounds. (Another misinformation passed along in this forum). He also networks with other breeders in our state to bring in new bloodlines for his breeding program. Again, why would you make a comment that he breeds to a narrow pool, if in fact, one really has no clue and should have done their own research before making such a statement. 

As for the certifications of Dave's dogs just setup an appointment to visit his kennel and ask him to show you the certifications as he did for me. I know some of the dogs on his site have been retired and new ones are now there in their place, but the new ones are not yet on his website. Every new family gets a copy of the parents certifications in their puppy packet along with the form to register their puppies AKC name, information on care of a new puppy, Daves own packet of what to expect, a half hour lecture from David on what to expect, and the assurance from Dave that you can call him 24-7 and ask any questions you might run into. He also ends the speech that if their is any genetic problem with the dog that he will either provide a refund if it's documented, take the dog back, and also reminds you that birth defects do occasionally happend even with the best of genetics behind the dog. It's mother nature and a fact of life. I think Dave allows the new adoptive owner to register their dogs with AKC so they can pick it's AKC name. I don't know how other breeders do this, but I think it's pretty standard.

I agree I should read more of this forum to see what other information is out there. I am just a friend of Daves, and am not posting under the name of gapview ( I did get my two goldens from there and couldn't be happier that I did). I do only know what I observe and have heard from Dave at Gap View and just want those facts to be on here as well.


----------



## luv_my_goldens

Lilliam said:


> I'm not a breeder, OK? Why would this establishment sell puppies at such a young age, and at Petsmart, no less???? Would I be able to go visit the premises? Highly doubtful.
> And what moron keeps a female in season in an enclosure without roof?


They don't sell puppies to Petsmart or any other pet store. And yes, they would gladly let you come visit their kennel and see exactly how their kennel is run. And most breeders as far as I'm aware do not keep their in heat females in an enclosure with a roof, they use very high fences or keep them separated via separate kennels/buildings as Gap View does both. . It is cruel in my opinion to keep dogs out of the sun and locked in a small cage just because they are in heat. Hope this helps.


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## luv_my_goldens

Bender said:


> Well I have nothing to 'gain' from saying they look to be a pretty poor, high volume breeder who seems to do nothing but breed their dogs, clearances 'optional' (meaning they do some but not all, leading me to think that the dog failed whichever was missing or they didn't bother to do them all).
> 
> This might be interesting anyway, gotta love the people who come on here with nothing in mind but trying to defend themselves under the name of 'a friend of the breeder'.....:doh:


I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm not trying to do anything other than set the facts straight as I know them. I'm not under the name of a breeder, but this forum seems to be about a particular breeder and their is tons of slander going on here. Yes, he is my friend as I assume many people become friends with the people they get their dogs from. David has over 27 yrs of customers who could join this forum and give you different side of the story than is being painted here.

And I see a high volume breeder as being someone who breeds dogs and can't find or doesn't have homes for them. If the demand for his dogs is so high then there is a reason for it. It's because the quality is high.


----------



## luv_my_goldens

CarolinaCasey said:


> No way! It is about educating the public and making sure that they find the best breeders and healthiest puppies out there. No one here is advertising their litters or available puppies. They don't need to.
> 
> It still doesn't matter to me if they in fact do all of their clearances--- they just have so, so many breeding dogs and a staff to boot. That isn't the kind of breeder that a lot of people want their puppy to come from. How can each puppy get the socialization it needs? How can you be bettering the breed with EVERY breeding when you're doing it so frequently? You can't. How is it that the *best *stud for your bitch, that complements her better than any other stud coincidentally is from your kennel? Not likely, but yet that's what they do.


I answered you question in an earlier post. Dave does have a staff for his "Ranch" and "Kennel". He has a farm hand that helps with the cattle, horses, chickens, ducks, feeding the dogs, kennel maintenance, etc. And a groomer, scheduling assistant, and himself to look after the dogs. He also lets local high school kids come help out because they love interacting with the dogs. He has tons of visitors everyday to come see and play with his dogs. The dogs have lots of interaction with their litter mates and the sights, sounds, and interaction with the other farm animals/dogs.

And he doesn't breed to a narrow pool. His dogs come from all over the country and he has a broad network with breeders in the state of virginia for example.

Hope this helps.

He does have clearances (just visit and ask),


----------



## luv_my_goldens

clh88888 said:


> My parents got 2 Goldens from Gap View. Cody is 8 years old and her only health problem so far (knock on wood) is thyroid issues. She definitely has the sweet golden temperament, but she is still incredibly hyper. She's also not a very smart dog - there's not a whole lot going on upstairs other than "Throw the ball!"
> 
> They brought Kelsey home from Gap View when Cody was about 18 months old. Kelsey certainly had the look, temperament, and smarts of a Golden, but the poor girl battled health nightmare after health nightmare. She suffered from regular seizures, kidney disease, a horrendous reaction to vaccination that she survived by a hair, and then finally succumbed to nasal cancer last January at 5 years old.
> 
> Needless to say, their next Golden will *NOT* come from Gap View...


I'm sorry for your families loss of a Golden. It's always hard to lose a loved pet. The fact that your families golden had all these health issues could have been cause by many things, as you noted the vaccinations. Even with the best genetic planning their are occasions when dogs are just not healthy. It just happens sometimes and any breeder will tell you they cannon't guarantee the health of your dog even with every certification possible on the parents. It just reduces the risk of something like this happening. 

In the future you can have titers done on your dog instead of vaccinations after the initial vaccination is done to help prevent allergic reactions to vaccinations. It is actually very common for dogs to have issues with vaccinations and many people just have whatever the vet recommends done without questioning is it really necessary. 

I hope this helps and again, I'm very sorry for your loss of your golden at such a young age.


----------



## LibertyME

High Volume Breeder - Rancher take your pick.
Who wants to buy a dog from a ranch where the dogs are just another form of livestock raised by farm hands and highschool kids.




luv_my_goldens said:


> I answered you question in an earlier post. Dave does have a staff for his "Ranch" and "Kennel". He has a farm hand that helps with the cattle, horses, chickens, ducks, feeding the dogs, kennel maintenance, etc. And a groomer, scheduling assistant, and himself to look after the dogs. He also lets local high school kids come help out because they love interacting with the dogs. He has tons of visitors everyday to come see and play with his dogs. The dogs have lots of interaction with their litter mates and the sights, sounds, and interaction with the other farm animals/dogs.
> 
> And he doesn't breed to a narrow pool. His dogs come from all over the country and he has a broad network with breeders in the state of virginia for example.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> He does have clearances (just visit and ask),


----------



## LibertyME

If he has clearances publish them!



luv_my_goldens said:


> He does have clearances (just visit and ask),


----------



## Pointgold

luv_my_goldens said:


> I answered you question in an earlier post. Dave does have a staff for his "Ranch" and "Kennel". He has a farm hand that helps with the cattle, horses, chickens, ducks, feeding the dogs, kennel maintenance, etc. And a groomer, scheduling assistant, and himself to look after the dogs. He also lets local high school kids come help out because they love interacting with the dogs. He has tons of visitors everyday to come see and play with his dogs. The dogs have lots of interaction with their litter mates and the sights, sounds, and interaction with the other farm animals/dogs.
> 
> And he doesn't breed to a narrow pool. His dogs come from all over the country and he has a broad network with breeders in the state of virginia for example.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> He does have clearances (just visit and ask),


 
Any stray in a shelter, if you look back far enough, will have a champion in his pedigree. Saying "Championship bloodlines" means nothing.

If he has clearances, they'll be in the datatbase. They aren't.


----------



## tippykayak

You have put your replies to one of my comments in a quoted section of the post, so it looks like I have written words that you yourself wrote. As an issue of forum etiquette, please do not type words of your own in between QUOTE tags for somebody else. Hopefully you can edit the post to reflect the fact that I didn't say the things you typed in between my words.



luv_my_goldens said:


> I'm glad you pointed out that if you ignore the fact and incorrectly register the puppies then it's carelessness. Since Dave had no idea the dog bred his dam, even if it did happen twice as you state (I haven't read evidence of that yet, guess I need to dig into this forum deeper to find that post) he did not knowingly register an improper sired dam. Stating that he did know is just speculation again.


It wasn't that he definitively knew. It was that he either knew or should have known. The suspension itself states this. If the dog got into the bitch's run, that's a mistake. However, are we assuming the dog then got back out of the run? If so, that's a really poor piece of fencing (even if the dog has superpowers, as has been intimated in the thread). And once it happened the first time, why weren't precautions taken with this dog? I had a dog jump a five foot fence once. After the first time, I didn't trust the fencing anymore. Fool me once...




luv_my_goldens said:


> His dog clyde according to Dave would be in his pen where he was supposed to be, as it does happen to anyone that owns a dog, a dog does get out of it's enclosure and you find it outside or at your door step wagging it's tail wouldn't make you think your dog had accidentally bred a dog in that time. After all, how would you even know the dog was capable of jumping such a high fence to get in with the female if you've never seen it done before. Again, one shouldn't jump to conclusions on assumptions or speculations.


You're expecting us to believe that this dog jumped from his enclosure into the bitch and then jumped back into his own? Or jumped back out and came to the front door? And even if we believe that amazing story, after the first instance, he absolutely DID know the dog could make these jumps and allowed it to happen again. And not only did it happen again, but he registered the dogs incorrectly again.



luv_my_goldens said:


> And Daves dogs are from all over the united states and are all from Champion competition backgrounds. (Another misinformation passed along in this forum). He also networks with other breeders in our state to bring in new bloodlines for his breeding program. Again, why would you make a comment that he breeds to a narrow pool, if in fact, one really has no clue and should have done their own research before making such a statement.


I never made the comment that he breeds from a narrow pool (not sure who did), but I do agree with the assessment of others that breeding lines with titled dogs in the background does not mean you are breeding champion bloodlines. Unless you are consistently titling the dogs themselves, it ain't a "champion" breeding. Nearly every BYB and HVB can claim champions in the background. The question is how recent they are and whether the dogs being produced can themselves achieve titles.



luv_my_goldens said:


> As for the certifications of Dave's dogs just setup an appointment to visit his kennel and ask him to show you the certifications as he did for me. I know some of the dogs on his site have been retired and new ones are now there in their place, but the new ones are not yet on his website.


The gold standard now is to post clearances on verifiable, independent websites. OFFA.org will collate everything for nominal feeds, and part of getting a CERF is sending it in to be registered. As long as a breeder is putting up dogs for sale online without complete, verifiable certifications online, that breeder is going to be criticized for potentially having incomplete clearances.

If they can show you everything beyond the shadow of a doubt in person (which means showing you a CERF from every year of every dog in the recent pedigree), then that criticism turns out to be unfounded. That's fine. However, people are right to be skeptical when a large operation does not have complete clearances posted.



luv_my_goldens said:


> Every new family gets a copy of the parents certifications in their puppy packet along with the form to register their puppies AKC name, information on care of a new puppy, Daves own packet of what to expect, a half hour lecture from David on what to expect, and the assurance from Dave that you can call him 24-7 and ask any questions you might run into.


Anybody can say this, but the only proof of clearances is the independent registration of them, which anybody can check. Do you have this packet for your dogs? Do you have OFA forms for hips and elbows, a cardiologist's certification in writing of both hearts, and yearly CERFs for both parents? Do you have this information for grandparents? How far back?


----------



## tippykayak

luv_my_goldens said:


> his forum seems to be about a particular breeder and their is tons of slander going on here.


For it to be slander (and if it's written it's generally considered to be libel, not slander), it would have to be false. The criticism of the suspension, the size of the operation, the holes in the clearances, and the breeding practices is all based on the GRCA's code of ethics and the information available about Gap View online.

Unless somebody is saying something that they know to be false and that statement hurts Gap View, it's neither slander nor libel.



luv_my_goldens said:


> And I see a high volume breeder as being someone who breeds dogs and can't find or doesn't have homes for them. If the demand for his dogs is so high then there is a reason for it. It's because the quality is high.


Finding homes is not the only criterion of good breeding. Producing lots of dogs without sufficient regard for the GRCA's code of ethics makes you an HVB, and Gap View has not demonstrated that they do follow that code of ethics with sufficient care. The AKC suspension merely confirms concerns that were posted before it happened.

And you have only to look at fast food to understand that high demand and quality are not necessarily related. GR puppies are highly marketable, no matter how carelessly they're bred. Good clearances and other best practices do not make a puppy more lovable. They can help a puppy live longer with less suffering and expense on the owner's part, but they don't make a puppy any cuter or easier to sell, except to the highly educated breed enthusiast market, which doesn't describe most people looking for pets. So yes, you can easily sell dogs at a higher risk for suffering and health issues because most people don't know what to look for.


----------



## MGMF

If he has all the clearances why can't he show a copy on his website? This would make a lot of the questions stop. Simply show the akc names, all good, current clearances (hips, elbows, hearts and eyes). Instead of coming back to try to defend what is not available why not help Gap View. Offer your help with posting these documents you say he has.


----------



## Bender

MGMF said:


> If he has all the clearances why can't he show a copy on his website? This would make a lot of the questions stop. Simply show the akc names, all good, current clearances (hips, elbows, hearts and eyes). Instead of coming back to try to defend what is not available why not help Gap View. Offer your help with posting these documents you say he has.



Exactly! If he has nothing to hide, why is he hiding things?


----------



## kateann1201

I'm new here, but this thread and the other like it, caught my eye. By the posts I've read here, it's clear what constitutes an "ideal" breeder. Not to sound snooty, but if someone can't see that and chooses to go with a less-than reputable breeder, then you get what your ignorance paid for. To argue about it just seems futile. If you got a pup and lucked out, good for you. If you didn't, don't say you weren't warned. To continually post in a breeders defense disputing FACTS is just silly. The breeder was penalized for irresponsible breeding in laymans terms. I'm not entirely convinced that these members defending this breeder, are actually different people. Seems fishy. Anyhow, carry on =)


----------



## AmbikaGR

luv_my_goldens said:


> Gap View Ranch and Kennel is not suspended by the AKC. They did have an incident where one of their male dogs unknowingly jumped a 7ft fence and bred a female without the owner knowing it had happened - They are athletic animals it could happen to any breeder. As soon as he heard what happened he and the AKC had the puppies DNA tested and dealt with the issue as they would with any respectable breeder. We all know things happen that are out of your control from time to time. On the bright side, the puppies still had great genetics behind the dog that sired them.
> 
> I know tons of people who have Gap View puppies and they can't say enough good things about the quality of the Goldens they produce. All you have to do is read the guestbook on their website to understand people are very satisfied with the dogs from Gap View.
> 
> Just thought I'd chime in because it sounded like some people on here were trying to discredit other breeders for their own gain. Now, that's a misuse of this forum.


Well I assume at this point you agree Dave IS suspended by the AKC as has been documented in this thread. No one here needs to discredit this breeder, he has done that on his own by his actions - or lack of. Do you know what your friend is telling his puppy people that are getting pups from him at this time while under his AKC suspension? I see no mention of it on the web site and none of these pups can be registered with the AKC due to his suspension. 



luv_my_goldens said:


> I too like the fact that this forum is about educating people about golden retrievers. And no body likes a big breeders like the ones who sale to puppy stores or even backyard breeders that bred dogs without any knowledge or cares for genetics and it's affects on the puppies. I'm just saying to my knowledge Dave is non of the above and runs a very sound kennel. He has "staff" because it is not just a breeding business he runs. Again, where people should not make assumptions and give misinformation. If you visit Dave's kennel you will notice the word "Ranch" in it's name. It is Gap View Ranch and Kennel. Dave owns a several hundred acre ranch where he has many livestock and needs help to maintain it just as any farmer does. And he has extra help in the kennel because Dave Boards dogs in his kennel. He does not breed dogs in his house and refer to himself as a breeder as many people do. How is that socialization of dogs when they never see any visitors. He has the proper facilities to be breeding dogs, it is a kennel with all the necessary equipment, fencing, vets, and yes a staff to make sure all the dogs in his care are properly taken care of. His staff consist of a groomer, an assistant to make and maintain schedules for vet visits and to help educated potential adoptive parents on what to expect and know before purchasing a golden retriever etc.
> 
> And Daves dogs are from all over the united states and are all from Champion competition backgrounds. (Another misinformation passed along in this forum). He also networks with other breeders in our state to bring in new bloodlines for his breeding program. Again, why would you make a comment that he breeds to a narrow pool, if in fact, one really has no clue and should have done their own research before making such a statement.
> 
> As for the certifications of Dave's dogs just setup an appointment to visit his kennel and ask him to show you the certifications as he did for me. I know some of the dogs on his site have been retired and new ones are now there in their place, but the new ones are not yet on his website. Every new family gets a copy of the parents certifications in their puppy packet along with the form to register their puppies AKC name, information on care of a new puppy, Daves own packet of what to expect, a half hour lecture from David on what to expect, and the assurance from Dave that you can call him 24-7 and ask any questions you might run into. He also ends the speech that if their is any genetic problem with the dog that he will either provide a refund if it's documented, take the dog back, and also reminds you that birth defects do occasionally happend even with the best of genetics behind the dog. It's mother nature and a fact of life. I think Dave allows the new adoptive owner to register their dogs with AKC so they can pick it's AKC name. I don't know how other breeders do this, but I think it's pretty standard.
> 
> I agree I should read more of this forum to see what other information is out there. I am just a friend of Daves, and am not posting under the name of gapview ( I did get my two goldens from there and couldn't be happier that I did). I do only know what I observe and have heard from Dave at Gap View and just want those facts to be on here as well.


Why not help support you friend and post copies of the clearances (hips, elbows, heart and eyes) that were in your puppy packets hen you got your pups from Gapview.


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## AmbikaGR

kateann1201 said:


> I'm new here, but this thread and the other like it, caught my eye. By the posts I've read here, it's clear what constitutes an "ideal" breeder. Not to sound snooty, but if someone can't see that and chooses to go with a less-than reputable breeder, then you get what your ignorance paid for. To argue about it just seems futile. If you got a pup and lucked out, good for you. If you didn't, don't say you weren't warned. To continually post in a breeders defense disputing FACTS is just silly. The breeder was penalized for irresponsible breeding in laymans terms. I'm not entirely convinced that these members defending this breeder, are actually different people. Seems fishy. Anyhow, carry on =)


But you are wrong. There have been threads similar to this where someone asked about a breeder and they were less than reputable. In the discussion the breeder joined the thread to "defend" themselves unsuccessfully and then some of that breeder's puppy families joined the thread to defend the breeder. These same people who at first were defending the breeder started to understand what was being said did some more research and then realized the breeder was not at all reputable and they had been taken advantage of. 
So while I agree these threads can be tedious they absolutely serve a purpose to many a layperson and hopefully steers them away from breeders such as this if not this specific one.


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## kateann1201

My post was more so aimed at the 2 people who flat out think this breeder walks on water, with no valid arguement to back it up. But I do understand what you mean by dragging out a thread to bring certain things to light, that may not otherwise have been known. The dead horse reference was to the folks arguing what are already known to be facts and are splitting hairs to speculate how somehow it's not Dave's fault for the incidences. That was it =)


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## Pointgold

In the interest of accuracy, Mr. Liskey's suspension was effective February 17, 2010. It was a six month suspension and $500 fine. If he paid his fine, this means that he would have been reinstated in August. So, perhaps he is no longer suspended. However, he _was. _And he and his staff and his "friends" and supporters can bend and twist the reason for that suspension all they want to, but the bottom line is that there was negligence, and fraud. And his breeding practices leave a lot to be desired if one is looking for a well bred puppy with a good pedigree and solid ancestral health history.


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## Pebbles_2212

*Gap View*

I have a question. How many times per year is a reputable breeder supposed to breed one dog? I was interested in purchasing a puppy from gap view last April or May of last year from a beautiful red golden. I did not after reading on this forum. I went back on the site late last year out of curiousity and I noticed that the same female dog I was interested had another litter and he was selling her pups-- I would think breeding a dog more than once a year would wear her out. Any thoughts on this?


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## Bender

Pebbles_2212 said:


> I have a question. How many times per year is a reputable breeder supposed to breed one dog? I was interested in purchasing a puppy from gap view last April or May of last year from a beautiful red golden. I did not after reading on this forum. I went back on the site late last year out of curiousity and I noticed that the same female dog I was interested had another litter and he was selling her pups-- I would think breeding a dog more than once a year would wear her out. Any thoughts on this?



It can be a bad sign. If for example they are breeding the same dog over and over, twice a year, year after year....

However some dogs don't come in on a regular six month plan, so breeding them each season isn't quite the same. My girl tends to come in every 10-12 months, so no reason to skip a whole year if she's bred. 

If it wasn't a huge litter often they will breed them again the next season since 2 pups aren't going to be as big of strain as 10. 

And some breeders prefer to breed their girls for two seasons in a row then give them a break and breed them again or sometimes just be done with babies and get on with showing. 

You have to look at the overall picture but yeah in this case I'd say it's likely just greed.


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## Sally's Mom

And some of the veterinary reproductive "gurus" advocate back to back breeding. When I see how awful my bitches can look after a litter, I think it would be too hard on mine. Mine come into heat every 5 1/2 to 6 months...


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## asmito2000

*Gapview Kennels Overpriced and Bad Quality Goldens*

Bought a Golden from Gapview and the dog has genetically inherited overactive tear glands it's eyes are cogentially malformed and dont collect tears and so they run onto the dogs face and stain the fur around its eyes every day. They are way overpriced at $1250 a dog you can do much better for much less elsewhere. Not to mention the owner was suspended for falsfying who the sires were on the AKC registration papers.


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## NuttinButGoldens

I in no way dismiss the shenanigans of Gap View, and in fact it makes me sad, but the best Golden I ever had came from there. Comet, in 1996.

Back then it was still owned and run by Howard though.

Things have obviously changed. I wonder where they are now given it's the end of 2012?


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## Ljilly28

Is this the right kennel? Gap View Ranch & Kennel

I cannot get over the number of dogs. With four, I worry that someone isnt getting enough individual time, and I spend all day with them, and they sleep on my bed, go for a 2 hour hike every day, teach classes with me, get groomed and trained every day.


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## MGMF

That is terribly sad. Golden puppy mill. Dogs breed without all their clearances. One litter after another in a barn/kennel.


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## Millie'sMom

@Ljilly28 that is the right kennel, his name is listed on the litters page, under adopt an adult. Litters – Gap View Ranch & Kennel

Oh my gosh, they have 25 available puppies, from 7 different litters


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## Rainheart

Every time I see this thread it makes me angry- I have seen dogs from this kennel. One I know off the top of my head has awful allergies and the biggest anal glands I have ever seen. Poor thing. It sickens me that they live so close to where I am.


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## cgriffin

So sick! And they let the pups go at 6 weeks from what I just read


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## Claudia M

well - I believe 6 weeks is in violation of VA regulations - I believe it is 7 weeks in VA but I may be wrong. The website is also not quite clear; do they allow puppy pickup 6 weeks after the 5-6 week puppy selection (which then will make the puppy 11 to 12 weeks) or at the age of 6 weeks. However it seems like they still have puppies born in September. Not sure why they would need a waiting list.


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## MaddieMagoo

This just makes me sad. How dare they say they are a "Premire Breeder of Golden Retrievers"!! These poor dogs.  Some of them are truly not correct to our breed standard.


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## NuttinButGoldens

Anyone know whatever happened with these folks? Did they get their act back in line?


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## SheetsSM

NuttinButGoldens said:


> Anyone know whatever happened with these folks? Did they get their act back in line?


I'm guessing not based on my interpretation of what getting their act back in line would mean.

Gap View's Winter Storm DOB 11 Mar 11; appears to have whelped her first? litter on 3 Apr 13--only a practitioner heart clearance listed on OFA.

Endora who also had a litter this month only has a practitioner heart clearance listed.

As of today, there were 5 litters that were whelped between 21 Mar & 19 Apr


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## drofen

23 dogs listed as dams? 9 sires?

Holy crap!!


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## sunset

And if I added right between those 5 litters there are 50 puppies!!!!!! There is no way that many puppies can get proper socialization.


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## nolefan

How could anyone who reads over the website not understand that Gap View Kennels is a puppy Mill. The law in Virginia apparently doesn't regulate anyone unless they have 30 females. What a travesty.Detailed Discussion of Commercial Breeders and Puppy Mills unbelievable.

It appears that the state of Virginia will not let you sell a puppy or kitten prior to 7 weeks of age.... I wonder who you would contact to have this checked out. The website says puppies can go home after 6 weeks on one page and after their 6/7 week check up (no mention of a vet performing the checkup) another page.

Age to Sell Puppy Table

So, so sad.


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## phschk

*sigh*

...sigh...

we got our sweet Hudson from them this year, on a recommendation from a friend.

He is wonderful, but every time we visited I got more and more concerned over the conditions there...there was a dog fight the last two times we went and just puppies everywhere :-/

I felt super guilty buying him in the first place but knowing what I know now he feels like a rescue...

It was NOT good (but we were naive at the time) that they forced you to take them home at 6wks. He lost out on at least two weeks of socialization that I think would have made things much easier for him, and for us.

I wish we had known!


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## Prism Goldens

I am sorry for you- and Hudson (I have a wonderful boy with the same call name)- but in about 10 years you'll be in the market again and you'll have this experience to base your 'good vs bad breeder' judgements on. Goldens shouldn't go home at 6 weeks- they need the time with their litter and mother - to me, puppies going home before 7.5 weeks is a red flag.


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## lhowemt

Best wishes for sweet Hudson and you.


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## JeanninePC99

I think it's helpful to keep information about Gap View together, so I'm not starting a separate thread.

This article talks about how Gap View allows random visitors to make appointments (for $5) to play with their puppies unsupervised. The writer is a young student and probably doesn't realize how sketchy this is. 

The Cavalier Daily - :: In and around C?Ville: Gap View Ranch and Kennel




> Then she led us to the back of the kennel, signed us in and introduced us to 16 *newborn* golden retriever puppies.
> 
> Let me break this down for you — 16. Golden retriever. Puppies.
> 
> *And then she left us alone. With these puppies. For as long as we wanted.*
> 
> We climbed in the first pen, being especially careful not to step on any of their tiny bodies, and they immediately attacked us. Luckily, they’re extremely small and not very strong so we would just pick up two or three at a time and they would fall asleep in our arms. They absolutely loved my hair and Nick’s shoelaces and would follow us wherever we went, crying when we left each pen.


By the way, I wonder if Gap View got this idea after a goat farm near here asked for volunteers to cuddle and feed baby goats last spring. The spots were filled right away and the Facebook post went viral. They were inundated with people from all over the region asking to come and play with the baby goats.


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