# Super discouraged with continued over-arousal biting - might neutering help desperate situation?



## SarahCav (May 14, 2021)

Hi all - this is my first post here, but I've scoured this very helpful forum many times over the years! I'm at my wit's end with our 11-month old golden's behavior. Please forgive the very lengthy background!

I had a golden as a child; he was a perfect dog - never did anything wrong.
I had a golden as an adult; he was a bit of a challenge and we thought maybe he was an anomaly. In hindsight he was pretty good! He died 6 years ago.
We decided Dec, 2019 that we were ready (?) for another golden as our kids (11, 14) were at a good age and I loved having a golden when I was a kid. We went through a reputable breeder (known them for 20 years, they used to board our last golden, all the clearances, etc, etc....have no concerns there). We put a deposit down for a puppy to be born 6 months later.

We brought our boy home in July, 2020 (he was 7 weeks when we got him). From day 1, he has been very bitey (neither of our other goldens were bitey to people). I researched heavily and tried all the recommended (yelping, ignoring, replacing with a toy, many other attempts even leading up to squirt of water, shake of can with pennies, just anything to try to make it stop!). Understanding totally that puppy biting is normal, I assumed it would end once he got his adult teeth. It didn't.

He's 11 months now and many days, I end up in tears and feeling so hopeless. It's not just the biting.....he will shove his nose in my crotch/butt (quite invasively!!), humps me, pants a lot, 'exposes himself' (heh) frequently, bites my hands, chomps on my thighs sometimes, bites my ankles and feet, etc...If he jumps on the sofa to hang out, he can't just lie next to me - it's always hand biting. If he's calm on the floor, if I just sit next to him and pet him, he will often take that as an invitation to jump up and play/bite.

This tends to happen at predictable times - most often it is between dinner and bed, sometimes in the morning after I've come back from a run. It's 99% only me he does this too (not my husband, and not as much to the kids). So far no one has been able to suggest why it is only me (I did have to leave for 6 weeks in Jan/Feb this year due to a death in the family so thought maybe separation anxiety but I don't think it's that as he was doing this before I left and due to my below note).

He is excellent in his crate and he is mostly good during the day while I'm working (at home) - sometimes stays in the same room as me, sometimes goes to a different room but is pretty chill.
He's been to 2 puppy training classes, and most recently had 2 sessions with a behaviorist/trainer. They just didn't really give us super helpful advice. I have another behaviorist's name that I've contacted, but one session is $500 and if it was as disappointing as our last one, I'm hesitant.

I've tried more exercise, I've tried less exercise. I've tried calming exercises. We have puzzle feeders, snuffle mats, a flirt pole, enrichment exercises, basic obedience, etc....I really feel like I've tried it all.

THE MAIN QUESTION:
I'm curious about neutering. I know it is not the answer to all, but I'm wondering in this specific situation, whether it might help even a little. I was trying to make it to one year (June), then after reading all the new research about joint damage, I was wanting to wait 18-24 months, but I just don't know if I can. It's unbearable and making our relationship unpleasant. If there is some chance that neutering might help even a little, I would weigh doing that against the potential future joint issues. If it would have zero impact on his over arousal, then I wouldn't want to. 
I've also looked into e collars but just can't quite get to that point yet.
I'm just so sad as this is nothing like I had hoped for when bringing a family pet into our home; I feel like I did all the right research and yet here we are.
I'm desperate - please help with any advice - and please be kind - I'm already fragile about this.
Thank you so much
Sarah


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

I have three intact males currently in my house. They are ages 11, 3, and 1. Neutering will not help. I've owned predominantly male dogs, one female, for over 35 years. This is a behavioral problem and you are going to have to put in consistent work to fix it. I know people are going to ask if he's field or conformation bred, but I own both and it really doesn't matter. This is a behavioral issue. I applaud you for the puppy classes but what you need is consistent daily training exercises. How is he with basic obedience? My dogs learn right away that humping is unacceptable. The very first time I see it I start training. It's a firm NO with a hand clap to get their attention as puppies. The command SIT can be a big life saver. Sit means sit until I tell you to do something else in our house. Put a leash on him in the house so you have better control if you need to.

I use e-collars for hunt training but I do not use them for basic obedience. Everything you are describing is basic obedience. Call your local AKC club and get involved in an obedience class there. Hire a private trainer to give you a weekly session one day a week. Then go home and everyday, three times a day, practice what you learned in those sessions. 

I'm betting the exercise he's getting is not enough. You need to exercise him three times a day for no less then 30 minutes of running after a ball or swimming, in addition to three sessions of obedience a day (10-15 minutes). Does he play fetch? Buy a chuck it stick and let him run a bit. He's being a very bratty teenager and you need to fix it right now.

He's not aggressive, he's not neurotic, he's just being a brat. If he only does it to you then you need to be the one that does the training with him. 

I know this may not be an easy fix, but in my eyes it's the only fix. When you feel like crying put him in his crate. My dogs get free run by the time they are one and crates are only used for travel. I'm not saying any of this to be insensitive. Spending money on neutering this dog is not going to fix any of these problems. You will enjoy training and the progress he makes once you find the right instructor. I would start with the basics of sit, down, heel, stay. I would also do place training. It is fun to do and can evolve into so many other fun games.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

It's really hard to say why you are experiencing what you are experiencing without seeing his behavior for myself. It does sounds like you've already tried most of what I'd normally suggest and that his behavior is outside the norm, though not entirely unusual for a dog deep in the midst of adolescence. That said, I think it's probably something that CAN be fixed/improved, but you need to discover WHY these behaviors are happening. Unfortunately, your best bet IS a private trainer (an objective, trained, neutral third party who can come to your home and watch the interaction between you, your dog, and other members of your family), but as you've discovered, not all trainers are created equal. If you can tell us where you live, someone here might be able to recommend a trainer for you. At a minimum, I'd be looking for someone with some decent credentials (For example, I like trainers who have the CPDT-KA or CPDT-KSA certifications, which tend to have more "positive"/reward-based training styles, but there are other legitimate credentials. This link provides some information about what is required to obtain the various credentials).

FWIW, although I'm a fan of NOT neutering males, it's possible based on your description of some of the behaviors that your dog MAY be one that would benefit from the loss of some testosterone. I'd delay it as long as you can (certainly until he is at least a year), and maybe get a second opinion from your (new) trainer before you decide to go that route. However, even if you neuter him, there is no guarantee that it will address ALL of your challenges, and it may only reduce the ones that it might help on. 

Just based on your description, this sounds like a dog who needs a serious tightening up of boundaries and consequences for unacceptable behaviors. If he hasn't been to a manners class since he was a puppy, I'd start there. Reinforcing basic manners often needs to be done at this stage in a dog's life, and a group class is probably the most cost-effective way to do that. Secondly, I think you need to spend some time determining WHY he is doing what he does. Dogs do what "works" for them. See if you can step back and really look at what happens _before _your dog engages in an unacceptable behavior. Then look at what happens when he does the behavior. What is his motivation? What is "rewarding" him for the behavior? What can you do to either prevent the behavior before it happens, or remove the thing that is reinforcing him and encouraging him to repeat those behaviors?

Here are a few resources that you may find helpful:













Ruff Love: A Relationship Building Program for You and Your Dog: Susan Garrett: 9781892694065: Amazon.com: Books


Ruff Love: A Relationship Building Program for You and Your Dog [Susan Garrett] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Ruff Love: A Relationship Building Program for You and Your Dog



www.amazon.com





Both of the above resources are by Susan Garrett. If you like her stuff, she has an awesome set of podcasts on YouTube and you may find other topics there that are helpful: https://www.youtube.com/c/DogsThat/videos

Hopefully others will chime in with ideas. Again, if you can tell us where you live, we may be able to recommend a trainer/behaviorist who might be able to help you get to the bottom of this.


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## Golden Glory (May 11, 2020)

SarahCav said:


> Hi all - this is my first post here, but I've scoured this very helpful forum many times over the years! I'm at my wit's end with our 11-month old golden's behavior. Please forgive the very lengthy background!
> 
> I had a golden as a child; he was a perfect dog - never did anything wrong.
> I had a golden as an adult; he was a bit of a challenge and we thought maybe he was an anomaly. In hindsight he was pretty good! He died 6 years ago.
> ...


I would get his bits and pieces removed.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I have 3 intact boys living here. They do not hump me or anyone else. They don't even hump each other. 

Why? Because I've strongly discouraged the behavior right from day 1 (when they are baby puppies). Allowing any bit of that behavior through teen months - means it gets reinforced and it gets a lot more difficult getting them to stop the behavior totally. 

Exercise has NOTHING to do with it. 

Training does.

My dogs even have a "no sniff" command - which I use to keep them from sniffing people they meet. 

You got a large breed that has a lot of energy and smarts.... and it needs a LOT more training than merely 2 puppy classes. I strongly recommend that people keep their dogs in obedience classes through the first 2 years of that dog's life. That means at least 6 rounds of obedience classes at least.

By the way - 



> Tried all the recommended (yelping, ignoring, replacing with a toy, many other attempts even leading up to squirt of water, shake of can with pennies, just anything to try to make it stop!).


Yelping, ignoring, replacing with a toy - these are all appeasing behaviors that a submissive dog would do with a more dominant dog. I've never understood why people attempt these behaviors with a puppy that's older than 10 weeks. It makes no sense. 

Then squirt of water, noisemaking - those can be "exciting" behaviors for some dogs. If you already have a dog that's already worked up - that's not going to help.

The mouthing/humping behaviors - I would check what happens BEFORE they occur. What leads up to them. Know when your dog is getting overexcited and learn WHEN to calm them down and send them off to go relax. 

Odds are they may be occurring after a play session or after you do something to get him all hyped up. 

It may be it's just him being overly excitable right now - he may settle down in the next year or two with forbearance from you. 

IF it helps at all, my sister has a rough collie which exhibited many of the behaviors that you complain of. My impression of that is he's a breed that's a lot more dominant and hormonal. LOL. My niece especially had to deal with the brunt of that - being somebody with a higher voice and less authority in the dog's eyes. 

My advice to my sister was not to allow ANY humping and to firmly correct the dog the instant he started going over the line. <= I'm not sure if she took my advice or if the dog simply started to chill as he got older and settled down. He is now 3 years old (still intact), and no longer humping my niece or bed covers or whatnot. Mouthing off and on is still an issue because he is still a herding breed and they communicate with their mouths (barking and nipping). I assure you that neutering him would not stop the nipping and barking.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

SarahCav said:


> .he will shove his nose in my crotch/butt (quite invasively!!)


FWIW - that isn't just a boy dog thing. Both Lana and Molly had to be trained to leave crotches alone. They don't do it to my partner but I realized after watching him with Molly this last go round that he is much more proactive about guarding that piece of anatomy (cause wayward puppy teeth will hurt that much more than a nose to mine will hurt me) so she's been warned off from the get go. But I only REACT if that makes sense. There is no body guarding. I only act when prompted so it's taken longer for Molly to get a clue. But for us, it's just required a couple "ugh knock it off" and to push her away from the area then distract her with something else. 

As an aside, red lipstick sticking out is common in boys based on how they sit. My neutered boy did it FOREVER when he sat cause the curling of his back just physically left no room for his penis to stay inside the sheath. So he'd poke out, we'd all get embarrassed and I'd ask him to sit a different way (usually a relaxed sit with one hip bearing more weight). My neutered boy also humped when he was over excited. 

So I'm with the others who say it's a training issue and not a testicles issue.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Honestly I don't think neutering will solve the issue(s), and I'm one who is quick and confident in encouraging pet people to neuter. 
If he pulled all that garbage with me, he'd plain old get a spanking that left an impression and call it a day. 
However I know that can be hard for everyone to do, and some people just can't be direct enough with the dog to make an impression.
I would think about putting him with a board-and-train trainer, either for basic manners/pet obedience or field work. He needs a firm, structured setting with someone who won't take his crap. 
I train with an ecollar on the daily and I'm not sure it'd be particularly useful in this situation, OTHER THAN if the dog was taught some basic commands (i.e. place, come, etc), it allows you to physically control him with a correction that is strong enough to change his mind, without having to physically put your hands on him.
Best of luck.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Since you're new here, I wanted to assure you that you've received some very useful input from very experienced and successful long time members of this forum. I would absolutely print up the thread on paper, get a notebook and make a bullet point list of using their ideas to tackle the problem. It is 100% a training and respect issue. Your previous dogs were personality/temperament type dogs that the low key approach wasn't a problem. Your current puppy has pushed the envelope and it's time to take your home back and let him know that you're the adult in charge - not him. If he has to drag a leash whenever he's out of the crate, I'd do that. Get started with the private trainer and do some networking on the possibility of sending him to a good board and train option. It can be the answer if you network carefully. I recently helped a friend with a Lab who was running the show at his house and I reached out to several Golden friends for referrals to people they knew in the region. If you let us know where you are, someone may be able to help or try reaching out to your regional Golden club. It's a very connected community, we are very lucky to have some smart, knowledgeable people who want to help in this breed. Reach out and get help, don't bother neutering him - it didn't make a difference for the Lab  but board and train with a respected field trainer of Goldens sure helped.


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## SarahCav (May 14, 2021)

Thank you for the responses. I will say that I’m certainly not passively allowing him to bite and jump me - I’m really trying to correct the behavior - just a struggle. It was asked where I am located - I am in the Ann Arbor, MI area if anyone has any training suggestions. I’ve tried Ann Arbor Dog Training Club (group class which I didn’t really like), which is often suggested and K9 Turbo (one on one). I’d prefer something smaller size and more targeted but also more affordable than true private lessons if possible.
Thanks!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SarahCav said:


> Thank you for the responses. I will say that I’m certainly not passively allowing him to bite and jump me - I’m really trying to correct the behavior - just a struggle. It was asked where I am located - I am in the Ann Arbor, MI area if anyone has any training suggestions. I’ve tried Ann Arbor Dog Training Club (group class which I didn’t really like), which is often suggested and K9 Turbo (one on one). I’d prefer something smaller size and more targeted but also more affordable than true private lessons if possible.
> Thanks!


Try here - reach out to her first and explain what's going on.






Program Information


PDS and RDT puppy preschool, obedience, agility and conformation class information



www.pawformance.com





AADTC is a good place to train - but not for problem solving necessarily. 

Tierra Acres does privates - however I don't know the trainer or what they do. 





Tierra Acres Dog Training Facility in Fenton, Michigan-Obedience, Conformation, Rally







tierraacres.com


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## CCoopz (Jun 2, 2020)

Hi, I very much agree that this issue is behavioural problem that requires focused and more intense training. However, I just wanted to make you aware that there is such a thing as temporary chemical castration. Try using the search function to read about it or look on my past posts. I posted not that long ago for advice about getting our boy a second dose of the chemical castration after the first wore off. The implant can be for 6 months or 12 months and is reversible by allowing it to just wear off. 
If you can hold out till he closer to 18 months even for the chemical castration that would be better. They can take up to 2 months to fully kick in and lower a dogs testerone enough. 
I think chemical castration may be more unusual in the US than the UK and Europe.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

At 11 months he's too big to let this behavior continue. It's time to get more firm and mean it when you give a command. I know you are trying. He's being an adolescent brat though, and like any teenager he needs consequences to behavior he knows he isn't supposed to be doing. 

Having said that, there is also an element of lack of impulse control that I'm reading in your posts. There are some simple things you can do to work on that.

Look up "Nothing in Life is Free" training and start using it. Also look up "It's Your Choice" training, you can find video on Youtube.

I do think you need to talk to a different trainer for some one on one help. You might look for someone who does field training, not just the local neighborhood manners classes.


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## Grandma Meg (Feb 10, 2020)

We just came out of all the very same things your puppy is doing! But we now have a wonderful well-behaved 18 month old_ intact_ male. Evenings and early morning were the worst...that is hunting time for wild animals and I think it still influences our dogs somehow. So...what worked? Positive reinforcement of _*any*_ proper behavior...over and over and over again. Forever it seemed. Every time Jeb sat, he got a high quality treat. Every time he even tried to inhibit his biting, humping, jumping etc. the least tiniest bit he got a high quality treat. Low fat string cheese pieces seems to be a favorite and also Duck Duck Goose meal toppers by Stella and Chewy. 
You kind of have to change your focus to look for the good behavior which was hard at first with all his shark teeth and our bloody arms. I was glad to see Susan Garrett listed as a source...we used her teaching/training methods a lot via her Homeschool the Dog program. Start with _It's Your Choice_ to give your pup the foundation that you have good things to offer when he exhibits some self control. I am not a professional dog trainer. I just know what worked for us. Here is something to make you smile a bit...we were told that Goldens only have half a brain until they are two years old. On the day they turn two, the UPS truck will arrive with a package containing the other half of their brain...there is a wand inside and you just wave it over their head to complete the installation. We have 6 months to wait for this event...in the meantime, we will continue to reward good behavior and love on Jeb with all we are worth! Hope this somehow helps... you are not alone and there is definitely a light at the end of the tunnel...here's praying you come out with the best dog ever...we have!


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## Pajamasam (Dec 5, 2020)

We recently struggled big time with hyper arousal with our 13 month old intact female golden. You can see a thread about it I posted recently here: Hyper excitable adolescent 11 month old golden reverting...

Some of the advice on that thread was very helpful, I hope it might be to you, or at the least provide some solace that you're not the only one dealing with a bratty adolescent testing the limits and engaging in frustrating behaviors. We also felt like we had tried everything, more exercise, less exercise, obedience, etc.

The main things that have improved the situation for us substantially since I wrote that initial discussion starter two months ago are: (1) my husband and I learning the triggers that easily spur our pup into hyper arousal (rigorous play, certain games, walking in the rain, having to wait in a sit in a highly distracting environment for a long time leading to frustration) and we avoid them outright, (2) going back to using a house lead which helps us put her into a calming 'time out' when she's getting over threshold, (3) keeping our energy low but firm when she's getting amped and never letting ourselves over react or get emotional when she's frustrating us, and (4) less crate time and more letting her just settle near us during the day and getting rewarded big time for self settling behaviors. 

The trainers we worked with also were pretty sure we were dealing with some hormonal, teenage jerk behavior and testing. For whatever reason she's a bit more settled now. We're ready for more testing periods but we feel more ready for it than we did before. I really hope that's the case for you too, but please know you're not alone!


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## Grandma Meg (Feb 10, 2020)

Pajamasam said:


> We recently struggled big time with hyper arousal with our 13 month old intact female golden. You can see a thread about it I posted recently here: Hyper excitable adolescent 11 month old golden reverting...
> 
> Some of the advice on that thread was very helpful, I hope it might be to you, or at the least provide some solace that you're not the only one dealing with a bratty adolescent testing the limits and engaging in frustrating behaviors. We also felt like we had tried everything, more exercise, less exercise, obedience, etc.
> 
> ...


Really like what you said here... makes a lot of sense


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## nanscape (Mar 29, 2021)

SarahCav said:


> Hi all - this is my first post here, but I've scoured this very helpful forum many times over the years! I'm at my wit's end with our 11-month old golden's behavior. Please forgive the very lengthy background!
> 
> I had a golden as a child; he was a perfect dog - never did anything wrong.
> I had a golden as an adult; he was a bit of a challenge and we thought maybe he was an anomaly. In hindsight he was pretty good! He died 6 years ago.
> ...


We had the same difficulty with Axl but yours sounds more intense. I (mom) had a harder time with him. Bruised from wrists to elbows, I had to stop walking him for a while. One thing that really helped us was that we put him in a harness. It gave us more to hold onto when needed. No obedience or puppy training available where we live so we were virtually on our own. We did have him neutered, he was not yet two. He matured into the sweetest, most wonderful boy ever. You would have never known he was that kind of a youngster. Unfortunately we lost him recently at nine years to Hemangiosarcoma (spleen). Diagnosed in September, they said 3-5 months and we had him for over seven months. The last three weeks he was going downhill with spells of fatigue, no appetite and then would rally and do better for a few days. We miss him terribly especially my husband. They were best buddies. RIP Axl


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Our late boy, Max, at more than 100 pounds, was a handful. After he was neutered, the humping stopped, but all his issues were not solved. We used a Gentle Leader Head Collar for walks. As he got older he calmed down, and eventually became a certified therapy dog. Like the previous poster, Max became the sweetest dog you could ever have. Neutering may help, but will not solve all the issues. Patience will be needed.


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