# Choosing the "Right" Food For Your Golden



## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Good post. I'm lucky not to have any food issues with my pack. They all do eat a top quality food. That and exercise is the key IMO.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

A great book along these lines is "Food Pets Die For" by Ann N. Martin....... a real eye opener. Also the Whole Dog Journal is a wealth of information... the next several issues will be their annual review of foods. A good source of information as far as who and where foods are made, ingredient listings, etc.


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

_:appl::thanks::appl:

Thanks so much for posting this thread. This is very important information. This will also help out all the new members here, or the people like myself who are still on a mission to find the best food for their golden. 

Laura

_


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

I have always loved this issue...there are so many good sites dedicated to this. We recently switched to Blue Buffalo Hollistic and my puppy seems to be doing very well on this. I never liked all the by-product crap. Great post!


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

I've read and re-read many food articles and this one is much more concise and informative. I switched Ike to Merrick's Wilderness Blend and Honest Kitchen's Preference formula last October. I have seen such a huge improvement in his coat and breath, not to mention that the itching has stopped, that I can't ever see going back even if he outgrew his food allergies. He loves them both and because he has a cast iron stomach, I can switch between foods for variety without stomach issues. 

Thanks for the posting!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

To me, it only makes sense to educate ourselves about what our dear friends are ingesting. Years ago when my DH was diagnosed as a diabetic, I started reading ingredient listings and was horrified to see what we were actually eating.... the same thing is true for our animal friends. I scour ingredient listings, want to know where food is made and by whom (sometimes easier said than done), etc. I don't want chemical, carcinogenic additives or preservatives or fillers that have no nutritive value. There are many quality foods out there, but you need to narrow the field to them and then, by trial and error, find what is right for your dog (of course IMHO).


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

agoldenliferanch said:


> Fears about bacterial contamination have kept many a dog owner away from raw feeding. While there is evidence to suggest that dog's digestive systems work much faster than ours and any bacteria goes thru the dog before any infection can take hold....it's still a concern for some. When you think about it, dogs get into things all the time outside that are filled with bacteria that don't hurt them so the argument does have some weight. For those who want to feed a healthy homemade diet but can't get past the bacteria issue, cooking ground meat and tempering eggs in a homemade formula might be an option.


I love that you've introduced this debate so thoughtfully and thoroughly. I've been researching and bouncing around ideas for a while now, so I'm very happy to see a specific thread devoted to this discussion. I hope people's passions can be restrained by their good sense and politeness as we tackle this potentially contentious debate. I'll do my best and offer the official statement that all my words are meant as a constructive addition to the debate.

Dogs have coevolved with us for millennia now, so the carnivore argument isn't, by itself, compelling. The incidence of salmonella and other food-borne illnesses in dogs fed raw diets is woefully under-studied. There are certainly properties of the canine digestive system that make it more resilient to that kind of infection than ours is, but that doesn't mean a dog _can't_ experience serious health consequences, especially from constant exposure. For example, there is some evidence that suggests that dogs exposed to salmonella in their food may be more susceptible to secondary infections, like giardia, even if the salmonella itself never seems to hurt the dog.

One thing I never seem to hear in the raw diet debates is the possibility of _human_ health consequences from the dog's diet. A dog can carry salmonella, acquired from raw food, without showing symptoms. The dog can then expose humans by shedding salmonella in its feces or _in its saliva_. I would not feel confident letting our five-year-old niece or newborn nephew play with Comet if he ate raw food.

These issues have not been studied with the kind of depth needed for vets to make science-based recommendations to us about raw food. Here's an article from NIH that cites one of the only studies I've been able to find about the health consequences of raw feeding, including the possibility of transmission through saliva.

On the other hand, I've always fed Eukanuba (Large Breed Puppy and then Premium Performance) to my two boys, and I'll continue to do so, even though Gus died of an exceedingly rare variety of Lymphoma last month. I find the link between grain and cancer to be extremely tenuous. The "carbs feed cancer" argument is very thin on the science. That doesn't make it untrue, just not convincing to me. Both dogs, with the exception of Gus's cancer, have been extraordinarily healthy in terms of stool, skin, coat, muscle tone, ears, eyes, temperament, stamina, the works. 

I do, however, feel confident in the science behind the link between salmonella and disease, even death, in both dogs and humans who become infected with the particularly nasty varieties, so I'll continue to feed cooked kibble. I think low-grain or grain-free food is probably a smart thing to try in dogs with skin problems, chronic ear infections, or other issues that are possibly food-related, but the average, active dog, in my personal experience, does wonderfully on food with a mix of protein (even if it's not named as specifically as in a more expensive food) and grain.

I'd love to hear some opposing viewpoints, though. It's the English teacher in me...makes my shy away from a definitive answer and look for nuance and an opportunity to learn something.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I think its all about who you trust and then you look at studies and claims with that in mind. 

I use Eukanuba/iams and I trust the company and its science. 

Science Diet is strong on studies....but I don't "trust" them. 

I don't trust holistic sources because I can't find any tangible, methodological studies that I think back up the claims which can be very extreme.

Ultimately we should feel good about what we feed and be comfortable with the ingredients and company. I think its wonderful we have choices.


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## KRayl (Aug 22, 2008)

Great post agoldenliferanch.

What really boggles my mind, and I'm only basing this off my experience and through conversations with many others, is that there aren't many vets out there with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to proper nutrition. I'm finding that they're quicker to hand you a prescription for medication rather than to be proactive and educate you about the importance of proper nutrition.


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

KRayl said:


> Great post agoldenliferanch.
> 
> What really boggles my mind, and I'm only basing this off my experience and through conversations with many others, is that there aren't many vets out there with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to proper nutrition. I'm finding that they're quicker to hand you a prescription for medication rather than to be proactive and educate you about the importance of proper nutrition.


I totally agree with you. I was thinking the same thing. My vet had never heard of some of the foods I named, and of course suggested Science Diet :yuck:


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## K9 Passion (Jan 2, 2009)

agoldenliferanch:

I commend you for sticking your neck out & posting this thread - most of it I agree with, but as such, you're going to be on the "hate" list along with myself. :uhoh:


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## K9 Passion (Jan 2, 2009)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> A great book along these lines is "Food Pets Die For" by Ann N. Martin....... a real eye opener. Also the Whole Dog Journal is a wealth of information... the next several issues will be their annual review of foods. A good source of information as far as who and where foods are made, ingredient listings, etc.


I have that book & it is an eye-opener! Scary & sad.


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## K9 Passion (Jan 2, 2009)

KRayl said:


> ...I'm finding that they're quicker to hand you a prescription for medication rather than to be proactive and educate you about the importance of proper nutrition.


That's because those lines of food are all they know. In traditional western veterinary schools, the vets are taught by the big companies who teach them about their respective formulas & how to sell them, not necessarily about "nutrition." So they're more of a sales representative for those companies.

I can't say much more or forum members get upset.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

K9 Passion said:


> That's because those lines of food are all they know. In traditional western veterinary schools, the vets are taught by the big companies who teach them about their respective formulas & how to sell them, not necessarily about "nutrition." So they're more of a sales representative for those companies.
> 
> I can't say much more or forum members get upset.


It's been openly discussed here before about the financial benefits to vets for selling the likes of Science Diet. Some reap a sizeable amount of their income peddling it.


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## Zoeys mom (Apr 26, 2008)

Thank you so much for your post. I have read quite a bit on the subject of nutrition and this was very clear and informative.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I prefer raw food or a quality diet for my animals too... so you're not alone... 

I wouldn't ever feed my dogs Iams or Science Diet... but I can appreciate it works for some dogs. Actually, I have no dogs right now that it probably wouldn't work for. But I still won't do it... 

I am, however, not willing to touch raw meat while pregnant, so am not feeding raw right now.


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

KRayl said:


> Great post agoldenliferanch.
> 
> What really boggles my mind, and I'm only basing this off my experience and through conversations with many others, is that there aren't many vets out there with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to proper nutrition. I'm finding that they're quicker to hand you a prescription for medication rather than to be proactive and educate you about the importance of proper nutrition.


This is true. I too have seen a few vets who were woefully clueless about nutrition.
Nutrition is a whole 'nother branch of science, and it appears it only gets a passing reference in vet school.

Great article, btw. Very thoughtful. I'm also always trying to find the best solution for the Pudden. Currently, we do a raw food meat-based diet with cooked, mashed veggies and a bit of kibble (Innova Evo) on top. 

She loves her veggies. I feed maybe 1/4 to 1/3 veggies by volume: yams, apples, banana, whatever. 

Dogs have evolved as scavengers, following bands of humans around and feeding off their scraps. So I think a little bit of veggies has been part of their diet for a very very long time.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm sorry, but I have to question where you got some of your information if you are listing "Purina" as a grocery store brand even though they make many different varieties of foods and their Pro Plan is considered a premium food and their Pro Plan Select is considered a holistic food, while listing Iams as a "premium" brand, when, in fact, it's near the bottom of the P & G line in terms of nutrition and can be had in just about any grocery store. And, Science Diet, a "premium" brand? I don't THINK so.....
BTW, it's Eukanuba, not Eukenuba.




agoldenliferanch said:


> Grocery Brands - Are brands like Purina, Pedigree, Alpo, Kibble n Bits, and private labels.
> 
> 
> Now let's look at a "premium" brand - an example would be a Science Diet, Iams or Eukenuba or some Nutro Labels. Nutro and Eukenuba do make holistic formulas that would put those formulas in the holistic category.
> ...


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## agoldenliferanch (Aug 1, 2008)

Hi, no problem....Yes, Purina makes Pro Plan, you're right and I should have mentioned it although when I think of Pro Plan, I really don't think Purina just Pro Plan, but when you say Puppy Chow or Dog Chow or Alpo, that's where I was going....no offense to Pro Plan users intended, it is the best food Purina makes.

As to the definitions...well it's an industry standard type of deal. Pet foods are put into categories within the pet food industry. And while I agree that more and more "premium" brands are finding their way onto grocery store shelves, it was meant to be a general statement and not 100% declarative. And believe it or not, Science Diet falls into the premium category as does IAMS, more the pity.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Iam's isn't considered "premium" even by Iams. But I do think compared to Purina Dog Chow and others that use bone meal and soy, it actually is a premium.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I feed raw and have done so for years. When I was pregnant with my son I still fed raw. My son had a heart defect and was in the hospital for his first month, came home and did fine. I did of course ask the doctors if it was a problem and she looked at me and asked if I planned to feed my son raw food. I said no, she said no problem then. At the time they were doing hospital visits where I worked with the elderly, some in fragile health, no problems either. 

The only problem I have had with raw was when I was pregnant with my daughter and we fed rabbit at the kennel, that didn't go so well. My boss just made sure that they didn't take rabbit out for the boarding dogs if I was working.

It's like anything else, common sense and good sanitation.

Honestly I get more grossed out if we go to someone else's house and they have kibble in a bowl on the kitchen floor and a kid gets into it - who knows what's in the kibble, how long it's been sitting and where.:yuck:

Lana


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## agoldenliferanch (Aug 1, 2008)

I don't mean to quibble, but for categorizing purposes and placement in pet stores, IAMS has historically been considered a premiium vs a grocery brand. Is it lower on the food chain than their Eukenuba, of course.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

scary, very scary!




agoldenliferanch said:


> declarative. And believe it or not, Science Diet falls into the premium category as does IAMS, more the pity.


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

So why do some companies use so much grain in their food ? Is it just because it's cheaper and a filler? I mean dogs do not get nutrition from corn gluten or brewers rice... right?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

actually dogs do get nutrition from corn, brewers rice, etc. It's quite digestible. 
taken from Dr. Rebecca Remillard, DVM, PhD, DAVCN...on their website, www.petdiets.com:

"...The pancreas secretes enzymes somewhat proportionally to the concentration of the stimulus in the gastric chyme, and reportedly secretes many (x 70) times more than is needed to digest the meal. I would think a dog on a high starch diet (60%) would secrete more starch digesting enzymes (and there are several types other than amylase) than a dog eating a 20% starch diet depending on the form of the glucose units. However, there are many different carbohydrates digesting enzymes buried in the brush border of the entire intestinal mucosa as well, which also must be taken into account. The non-fiber carbohydrate sources (NFE) on average are 80-90% digested by the normal dog. Starch has two types of linkages (alpha 1,4 and alpha 1,6 bonds) between the glucose and mammals secrete enzymes sufficient to break both types. Mammals can also break the glucose alpha-links in the form of glycogen (stored in the liver and muscle of prey). Cellulose is nothing more than glucose molecules hooked together by beta-links and no mammal can digest that link. This is why fiber in not digested by mammals and is used as a non-digestible fraction of the diet. Normal dogs should have fiber in their diet....."


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

skylielover said:


> So why do some companies use so much grain in their food ? Is it just because it's cheaper and a filler? I mean dogs do not get nutrition from corn gluten or brewers rice... right?


My opinon....Dogs do need carbonhydrates. Some dogs don't do well on the low carb/high protien food. If you have a company that makes food for the "masses" you would make something that will agree with most dogs. Just a guess. 

Corn Glutin is a protien filler which is one reason I"m leery of it.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

more of the same....same source...why there is grain in dog foods:
"...

QuestionWhy do vets inisist that dogs "need" grains in their diets when even pet food companies have admitted that they do not and when history, form and function has dictated that they do not? It is my understanding that it is for the sole purpose that kibble must be 40% grain for extrusion purposes.AnswerSorry I cannot speak for all vets, and I do not know of any that insist dogs need grain. 
It is true that AAFCO does not state a min or max of readily available carbohydrate, starch or better defined as nitrogen free extract (NFE) in their nutrient profile for dogs or cats. However, that is not same as saying dog can't use or should not have NFE in their diets. In fact, most dogs and cats digest better than 90% of the starch in their diet. Yes - The starch in the grain is cooked and expands nicely within the extrusion process when the hot mixture is suddenly cooled. However, I would not say it's the only reason. It is a source of calories and/or fiber without increasing the caloric density of the diet. There are only 5 nutrient groups and the total must add up to 100% (protein, fat, carbohydrate [fiber and starch], vitamins and minerals). If the vitamin and mineral requirements can be meet with 5-10% of that mixture, and the dog only needs about 15-30% protein and 5-10% fat, there is only one other nutrient class left to make up the remaining 50% = carbohydrate. Various pet foods have altered that last 50% using various combinations of fiber vs. starch, depending on the final fiber and digestible calorie content desired. One could feed no grain but would then have to over feed protein and/or fat to decrease the carbohydrate portion and that then brings on it's own set of different problems..."


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> more of the same....same source...why there is grain in dog foods:
> "...
> 
> QuestionWhy do vets inisist that dogs "need" grains in their diets when even pet food companies have admitted that they do not and when history, form and function has dictated that they do not? It is my understanding that it is for the sole purpose that kibble must be 40% grain for extrusion purposes.AnswerSorry I cannot speak for all vets, and I do not know of any that insist dogs need grain.
> It is true that AAFCO does not state a min or max of readily available carbohydrate, starch or better defined as nitrogen free extract (NFE) in their nutrient profile for dogs or cats. However, that is not same as saying dog can't use or should not have NFE in their diets. In fact, most dogs and cats digest better than 90% of the starch in their diet. Yes - The starch in the grain is cooked and expands nicely within the extrusion process when the hot mixture is suddenly cooled. However, I would not say it's the only reason. It is a source of calories and/or fiber without increasing the caloric density of the diet. There are only 5 nutrient groups and the total must add up to 100% (protein, fat, carbohydrate [fiber and starch], vitamins and minerals). If the vitamin and mineral requirements can be meet with 5-10% of that mixture, and the dog only needs about 15-30% protein and 5-10% fat, there is only one other nutrient class left to make up the remaining 50% = carbohydrate. Various pet foods have altered that last 50% using various combinations of fiber vs. starch, depending on the final fiber and digestible calorie content desired. One could feed no grain but would then have to over feed protein and/or fat to decrease the carbohydrate portion and that then brings on it's own set of different problems..."



interesting. thanks for posting.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

They use grain because it's cheap!


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

the question is not whether they need carbs - of course they do; glucose is the main energy source of body cells and the only energy source the brain can use. The question is, from which source should they get their carbs? Should they have veggies? Or is the carbohydrate in meat (in the form of glycogen in muscle cells, for example) enough?

I don't have the answer either - but am wondering.


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> They use grain because it's cheap!


That's what I was thinking. I mean I see some foods where the first ingredient is Corn! :yuck:


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## msdogs1976 (Dec 21, 2007)

Nutrition, the never ending debate. Many are frowned upon for feeding their dogs Iams, Beneful or the like. But don't forget, cost is a concern for many. Today I paid $46 including tax for a big bag of Natural Balance. Many don't have the budget for that. And some that can pay, just don't realize they are feeding their dog a lower quality product. I fed Iams to my dog the first few years of her life. I thought she was getting one of the better brands. But later on I learned more and upgraded.

But I don't look down on anyone who feed their dogs a grocery store brand. Many a dog have lived a long and good life on these brands.


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

msdogs1976 said:


> Nutrition, the never ending debate. Many are frowned upon for feeding their dogs Iams, Beneful or the like. But don't forget, cost is a concern for many. Today I paid $46 including tax for a big bag of Natural Balance. Many don't have the budget for that. And some that can pay, just don't realize they are feeding their dog a lower quality product. I fed Iams to my dog the first few years of her life. I thought she was getting one of the better brands. But later on I learned more and upgraded.
> 
> But I don't look down on anyone who feed their dogs a grocery store brand. Many a dog have lived a long and good life on these brands.



Yeah cost is definitely a concern for me. My husband and I are both broke college students, so it's a struggle trying to find a food that works. I can't afford to try all different kinds and hope they work. Perfect example, I have a $30 bag of Blue Buffalo sitting here that didn't work the first time :doh:. I don't want to feed a lower end food, but I can't afford $60 a bag either . I'm trying to find something in the middle that will give good results.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

If you stay away from soy, corn glutin and bonemeal as the protein source you will be off to a good start. 

Did you try a slow transition with the Blue Buffelo?


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> If you stay away from soy, corn glutin and bonemeal as the protein source you will be off to a good start.
> 
> Did you try a slow transition with the Blue Buffelo?



Yeah I added it very slowly over 2 weeks. She was 9 weeks old though.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

skylielover said:


> Yeah I added it very slowly over 2 weeks. She was 9 weeks old though.


That's awful young...you probably didn't have her very long and she was going thorugh a lot of transition. If it were me, and a holistic food was important....I'd do a really slow transition and try again....but I'm sure that's bad advice....

I'd check the use by date on the bag first though.....

I'm lucky....my Lucky seems to be intolerant only to Alpo:


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> That's awful young...you probably didn't have her very long and she was going thorugh a lot of transition. If it were me, and a holistic food was important....I'd do a really slow transition and try again....but I'm sure that's bad advice....
> 
> I'd check the use by date on the bag first though.....
> 
> I'm lucky....my Lucky seems to be intolerant only to Alpo:



Thanks. It's not bad advice. I would rather feed it. However, she has had stool issues on and off since we had her, so I was scared to try it again.. and make things even worse


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## Clhoie (Dec 16, 2008)

skylielover said:


> Yeah cost is definitely a concern for me. My husband and I are both broke college students, so it's a struggle trying to find a food that works. I can't afford to try all different kinds and hope they work. Perfect example, I have a $30 bag of Blue Buffalo sitting here that didn't work the first time :doh:. I don't want to feed a lower end food, but I can't afford $60 a bag either . I'm trying to find something in the middle that will give good results.



Check out their websites, some do offer Trial size bags!! i know Merrick does, and their 1 pound bags are 1.99! =) the "before grain" are 2.46ish depending on type


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## agoldenliferanch (Aug 1, 2008)

skylielover said:


> Yeah cost is definitely a concern for me. My husband and I are both broke college students, so it's a struggle trying to find a food that works. I can't afford to try all different kinds and hope they work. Perfect example, I have a $30 bag of Blue Buffalo sitting here that didn't work the first time :doh:. I don't want to feed a lower end food, but I can't afford $60 a bag either . I'm trying to find something in the middle that will give good results.


To borrow a phrase I read online somewhere - *an ounce of nutrition is worth a pound of vet bills. *

As for trying foods that will work for your pup...many holistic manufacturers guarantee their food which basically means that you can try it and if it doesn't work for your pup you can bring it back. Check with your local independent store to check their policies. And yes, there are trial bags you can buy for a lot of these companies. Dog food prices have skyrocketed in the last year and I totally sympathize. But if you look carefully what you'll find is with the cost of corn going up so high, the gap between grocery and "premium" foods and holistic brands has narrowed. 

As you go thru this process, make changes slowly and allow two weeks for determination as to how the dog fares on a brand. There is a rule of thumb when changing dog foods...the wider the gap between what you're feeding and what your changing to determines the length of the switchover. 

For example...if your breeder was using a grocery brand heavy in grains and you purchase a holistic formula and try switching over in just a few days, you'll run into a lot of runny poops! The pup is basically detoxing. Not written in stone but a guideline to use as a basis can be - 

Grocery to holistic - 1/3 new food to 2/3 old food for 3 days - half and half for 3 days and 2/3 new to 1/3 old for three days. Add pumpkin and yogurt for any upset tummies.

Premium to holistic - Can be done over a week

Holistic to holistic - Over a period of 3-4 days.

Good Luck!!


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

Thanks for the info! 
I wish Petsmart sold trial bags, that would be great. I finally found another pet store in my area that I'm going to check next week. Supposedly they sell the higher end brands. I just don't know what to pick???


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/

They have reviews of different foods, and rate them according to a scale.

Lana


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

Bender said:


> http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/
> 
> They have reviews of different foods, and rate them according to a scale.
> 
> Lana


Thank you. yeah I look at this website all the time, I love it. There are just so many choices :scratchch


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

nah, not really, because if you take the time to change them over correctly, especially a dog like Skylie that seems pretty sensitive, you'd need about 20 pounds to do the change correctly. In which case, you might as well buy a 20 pound bag!




skylielover said:


> Thanks for the info!
> I wish Petsmart sold trial bags, that would be great. I finally found another pet store in my area that I'm going to check next week. Supposedly they sell the higher end brands. I just don't know what to pick???


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> nah, not really, because if you take the time to change them over correctly, especially a dog like Skylie that seems pretty sensitive, you'd need about 20 pounds to do the change correctly. In which case, you might as well buy a 20 pound bag!



very true, that's exactly what I was thinking when I bought the Blue Buffalo. I might try it again or decide on a different kind.


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## videochicke (Dec 29, 2007)

Since Amber died from kidney failure last year at age 5 from eating the recalled dog food, we decided to feed our new pup Ginger raw. Just don't trust any of it anymore. One brand or another seems to be recalled every few months. Ginger has been eating raw since she was 7 weeks old.


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## Popebendgoldens (May 16, 2008)

skylielover said:


> Yeah cost is definitely a concern for me. My husband and I are both broke college students, so it's a struggle trying to find a food that works. I can't afford to try all different kinds and hope they work. Perfect example, I have a $30 bag of Blue Buffalo sitting here that didn't work the first time :doh:. I don't want to feed a lower end food, but I can't afford $60 a bag either . I'm trying to find something in the middle that will give good results.


I hate to tell you but all premium dog food kibbles will be increasing this year. 
Pat


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## Popebendgoldens (May 16, 2008)

I have read this tread with interest. i am a raw feeder and have been feeding raw to my dogs for a decade now. Before I fed raw, I fed Purina Pro Plan. 

I have always wondered why we treat our dog's food different from our own food. How many people reading this have had a 100 % balance meal at breakfast, lunch or dinner? When was the last time that you even looked to see the nutrition requirements for our own food? 

Why is is so important that our dogs or cats have a 100% nutritionally complete meal each feeding? What did we used to feed our dogs before the kibbles came along? 

Since when dog our dogs need grain or veggies in their diet. They can't digest either grain or veggies unless the cell membrane is broken down by either pureeing or blending the food. They don't get the nutrition from these carbs by feeding anyway else.

If you were to look a the insides of a wolf or dog you would notice that the parts are exactly the same. The wolf doesn't eat grains unless it is from the stomach area of the prey it killed. That part of grain or vegetable matter is probably 1-8% of the wolf's diet epending on a variety of factors. Those factors are who eats first. I could probably write a book but will stop now.

Pat


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## capa (Jan 7, 2009)

Popebendgoldens said:


> I have read this tread with interest. i am a raw feeder and have been feeding raw to my dogs for a decade now. Before I fed raw, I fed Purina Pro Plan.
> 
> I have always wondered why we treat our dog's food different from our own food. How many people reading this have had a 100 % balance meal at breakfast, lunch or dinner? When was the last time that you even looked to see the nutrition requirements for our own food?
> 
> ...


I think that some points you make are valid. On the other hand, humans are pretty much alike in sizes and appearance. Dogs aren't... and I think it would be very hard to start calculating the amount of nutrients necessary for a healthy beagle, or great dane or a golden.. they are so different in sizes, weight mass and appearance! Yes, they descend from wolves, but wolves in the wild don't have the life-span of a domesticated dog. Yes, I know, there are always exceptions to the rule.
Just the other day I was reading an article in a magazine at the vet's office about cancer in dogs and the misconception that industrialized foods are the main responsible for the disease. It stated that dogs are getting more cancer issues ALSO because they are living longer than they did 50 years ago (maybe also thanks to specific breed balanced brand foods) and as with humans the longer they live the weaker become their cells to protect them against cancer.
Of course industrialized foods are not without responsibility, many things have gone wrong and might still do, but I still think that the dry dog food that we give our Axel, paired with good higiene, fruits and vegetables (our dog eats raw apples, bananas, zucchini and carrots on a daily basis and digests them fine) and regular exercise, is his and our best shot to have him around for a very long time (hopefully a very, very long time).


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

capa said:


> Just the other day I was reading an article in a magazine at the vet's office about cancer in dogs and the misconception that industrialized foods are the main responsible for the disease. It stated that dogs are getting more cancer issues ALSO because they are living longer than they did 50 years ago (maybe also thanks to specific breed balanced brand foods) and as with humans the longer they live the weaker become their cells to protect them against cancer.


I agree with this. I'll also add that in the past dogs haven't been treated with the sophisticated methods available today, and fewer dogs were taken as far through treatment before euthanasia. It cost me $2000 to finally figure out everything that was wrong with Gus so I could be sure putting him down was the right decision. Twenty years ago, he might simply have been put down when he became so ill and blind. 

Before supplements and pain killers, older dogs would have been euthanized when joint and other age-related problems took away all their quality of life. They wouldn't have the chance to get to twelve or thirteen and die of cancers.

The standard of care for dogs has changed, and the number of people who treat them as family, rather than as property, has increased. Now it's more normal for people to spend the effort and money to cure everything that can, so it'll be the incurable diseases that bring down the dogs.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I think it's important to consider enviromental factors too. As they live longer, there is more cumulative time being exposed to chemicals and toxins in the environment. Outside pesticides, fertilizers, even smog... and inside cleaners, pesticides,etc. I've gone to using only non-toxic cleaners around the house. Outside we have a mulching lawnmower and use the diatomaceous earth as a pesticide..... NO chemicals. I'm also careful where we walk and play that they haven't been treated recently. They say golf courses are among the worst culprits with as much fertilizer/pesticides they have to use. And, back to food, it has only been recently that most foods have gotten rid of toxic preservatives.


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## K9 Passion (Jan 2, 2009)

Popebendgoldens said:


> ... Since when dog our dogs need grain or veggies in their diet. They can't digest either grain or veggies unless the cell membrane is broken down by either pureeing or blending the food. They don't get the nutrition from these carbs by feeding anyway else.
> 
> If you were to look a the insides of a wolf or dog you would notice that the parts are exactly the same. The wolf doesn't eat grains unless it is from the stomach area of the prey it killed. That part of grain or vegetable matter is probably 1-8% of the wolf's diet epending on a variety of factors. Those factors are who eats first. I could probably write a book but will stop now.
> 
> Pat


That is exactly right! THANK YOU! Finally someone else understands this!!!!!!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

This article is taken from a website called the Urban Carivore ( http://www.urbancarnivore.com/uc_online/pages.cfm?ID=17 ) there are a several excellent articles there in addition to this one, IMO of course.

*Wolf or Woof?*














Through millions of years of evolution, the dog has reached its present state with a digestive system that undoubtedly makes it a carnivore. Just as cattle or sheep cannot live on meat, your dog will not thrive on plants. From one end to the other, your dog is adapted to digest primarily animal matter.

Although the shape of your dog's head may not resemble the head of a wolf, all canids have a simple hinge jaw that works in a scissoring manner rather than the rotational fashion of the herbivore. As they do not chew their food like herbivores their saliva does not play an active role in the initial stages of digestive function, rather it serves to lubricate the food for transport to the stomach. The dog's front teeth are sharp and pointed enabling them to puncture, slash and cling. The most useful teeth for this purpose are the canine teeth or fangs, but the incisors also serve as a clamp. Behind the canine teeth are rows of premolars and molars, which are also called "flesh teeth" as they are useful for tearing and shearing meat. These teeth are also used for cutting through tendons, and small bones, and for crushing larger bones. The canine tongue is long, supple for lapping blood and licking meat off bones.
*Although domestication has changed the dogs' external appearance,
the digestive system and nutritional needs have not
changed from those of their wild relatives.*​The digestive systems of all canids are remarkably alike and they all function in the same way. The overall length of the canid digestive tract is short although it remains relative to the size of the dog. This aids in rapid digestion of raw meat. Their simple monogastric stomach is a storage organ capable of holding large amounts of nutrient dense meat and fat. The other function of the stomach is to secrete concentrated solutions of hydrochloric acid, which create the highly acidic environment necessary for initiating digestion of protein in meat and bones as well as destroying pathogenic bacteria that may be ingested.

The small intestine is responsible for digestion and for the absorption of nutrients. The carnivore's gut is extremely efficient at digesting protein and fat, as long as there is little or no carbohydrate (grain-starch) present. Experiments which have measured the amounts of various nutrients eaten and compared these with the amounts passed in canine feces have shown that a healthy animal loses no more than four percent of its fat intake and only a trace of protein. The digestive efficiency of raw meat is 95% and takes place in 2 to 3 hours.

The small intestine joins with the large intestine through a small appendage called the cecum. While this has no real purpose in a carnivore, it should be acknowledged as this is a key difference between a carnivore and an herbivore. By the time the food has passed through the animal's small intestine, the process of digestion and absorption of the nutrients in the food is complete. The large intestine has only one function, which is to extract fluids and form waste material where it is stored in the rectum until it is expelled. The gastrointestinal tract of a carnivore is virtually sterile as most bacteria and other micro-organisms are destroyed by hydrochloric acid in the stomach. Those bacteria that are not eliminated are seldom able to survive the digestive processes. The colon is the exception, as it houses a variety of organisms which form vitamins such as pyridoxine, vitamin B-12, biotin, vitamin K and folic acid.








Wolf and coyote feces are similar in appearance. Coyote feces rarely exceed one inch in diameter, whereas wolf feces samples range from one to one and one half inches in width.

_Coyote scat (dark) over raw fed domestic dog feces_


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

Thank you for posting! very interesting to read


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## laffi (Jan 26, 2008)

agoldenliferanch :wavey: would you mind telling us what you feed your dogs?

I feed mostly raw (prey model diet) but since I also do a lot of training (agility and obedience) I use dry food as treats (Artemis Max Dog).


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## agoldenliferanch (Aug 1, 2008)

Sure...I mentioned it on another thread but right now I'm doing turkey necks and a mix I make myself with the base being Oma's Pride mixes - www.omaspride.com. It's a great raw mix of meat, organs and bones 80% and a veggie mix (kale, broccoli, squash). To that I add in a rotating fashion - oatmeal, brown rice or sweet potatoes, broccoli, carrots, spilt peas, green beans, apples (all pureed) about a dozen eggs, a large can of pumpkin, olive oil and yogurt. I mix all together and feed my crew of four. A batch lasts me about 4 days. I also supplement with a multi-vitamin, glucosamine and fish oil.


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## Shining Star (Jan 7, 2007)

K9 Passion said:


> That is exactly right! THANK YOU! Finally someone else understands this!!!!!!


 *I don't understand anything.*
*I am still looking for that allotment Golden Retriever Food*

*The one that says on the bag ( Feed Only to Golden Retrievers )*
*( Made Only for Golden Retrievers )*

*When I find that food Me and my Girl will be Happy Campers.*


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## K9 Passion (Jan 2, 2009)

Shining Star said:


> *...The one that says on the bag ( Feed Only to Golden Retrievers )*
> *( Made Only for Golden Retrievers )..**.*


LOL-Bill, there will never be such a product because of the differences between all goldens, & any breed for that matter. :wave:


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Royal Canin makes a food for golden retrievers, although I strongly suspect it's identical to the one that's labeled "for Labrador Retrievers".




K9 Passion said:


> LOL-Bill, there will never be such a product because of the differences between all goldens, & any breed for that matter. :wave:


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## Popebendgoldens (May 16, 2008)

agoldenliferanch said:


> It's a great raw mix of meat, organs and bones 80% and a veggie mix (kale, broccoli, squash). To that I add in a rotating fashion - oatmeal, brown rice or sweet potatoes, broccoli, carrots, spilt peas, green beans, apples (all pureed) about a dozen eggs, a large can of pumpkin, olive oil and yogurt. I mix all together and feed my crew of four. A batch lasts me about 4 days. I also supplement with a multi-vitamin, glucosamine and fish oil.


When I first started feeding raw back in 1999, I bought a Vita-Mix machine and pureed veggies to put into my dogs food. I remember using collard and mustard greens, broccoli, and other veggies. After a long while, it got to be a big pain. I also used to put cooked rice in the mixture too, in the very beginning. I also used to grind meat to add to the veggies

Now I feed mainly a prey mode diet because it is a easier diet to feed. 

Pat


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## K9 Passion (Jan 2, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Royal Canin makes a food for golden retrievers, although I strongly suspect it's identical to the one that's labeled "for Labrador Retrievers".


LOL-Gees, I you're probably right. :


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

The one thing I still have trouble with is the Raw Meat part.

Dogs (wolves) in the wild are exposed to things our dogs will never see, and thus our dogs don't necessarily have the same built-up immunity as a wild dog or wolf.

Then again, maybe they do. That's the problem 

I'm still of the thought that the best thing we can do is stick with an upper tier food from a manufacturer that, in theory, knows what they are doing. California Natural, Innova, and possibly (currently looking into) Castor & Pollucks.

Comet lived to a ripe age of 12. His first 6 years were on Pro Plan. Then about a year or 2 on a special Royal Canine allergy forumula, which was discontinued, and then the last 4 or 5 on California Natural. I am more educated now than I was 12 years ago so I won't be using Pro Plan any more (not saying it's not ok, it's just not the best I can do for my dog). He was perfectly healthy until the very end when Cancer took him.

Dakota had pretty much the same diet. His first 4 or 5 years his ears were a nightmare. As soon as he was moved to California Natural his ears cleared up and we haven't had a single bad swab in 4.5 years. He will be 10 in August. He is epileptic, but I don't really thing food has anything to do with that.


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## olik (Apr 13, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Royal Canin makes a food for golden retrievers, although I strongly suspect it's identical to the one that's labeled "for Labrador Retrievers".


 I sew this bag.Ir's said from 55lb to 100something.Well my Honey is on the small side and wight about51.Should we call her a cocker spaniel? 
LOL


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

I find nothing wrong with supermarket dog foods Bindi our australian cattle dog grow up on supermarket food,canned food, plenty of fresh raw bones and left overs from our dinner.Left overs being mash potato,pumplin,beans,corn,peas,beans,cooked meat gravy. She lived to the age of 16 years old, She lived through breast cancer & heartworm. 

Einstein also was feed supermarket food,fresh raw bones,left overs from dinners,canned food with no ill affects. He was feed this most of his life.I kept swtiching foods with no problems at all. One time he will be eatting pedigreee next home brand etc. Right now my guys are eatting supercoat working dog when thats all gone they will be trying great Barko great taste. My dogs also get plenty of fresh raw bones,raw meat daily,an egg once a week every 3 days i give them omega 3,6 plus 9,they also get left overs from our dinners when there is some. I like to believe cause of doing this i do not have problems with food allergies,ear infections and what not, My guys are aslo not fussy on what there being feed. I like to think my dogs are getting a varied diet, Wouldn't you get bored eatting the same thing every day of the week. My dogs get both beef and chicken mince for 2 days they get beef then the next 2 days they get chicken, Sometimes i give them kangroo mince when its in stock. All my raw meat comes to me frozen, but is fresh from the framers and is raw no need for cooking. By freezing it it kills all the parasites that are in the meat. I know people wouldn't think of this as a good idea but it works wanders for my dogs.


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## bb'smom (Jan 3, 2009)

*Honest Kitchen*

I've been using Honest Kitchen for the past 4 years-before that I used Dr. harvey's--before that Canidae. My first golden boy suffered from terrible allergies, developed seizures later in life (around 7)--lived to be almost 15. We fed him Science Diet until he was 13--switched to Canidae when we got a new puppy. Within 6 weeks--his skin improved, his fur was beautiful and he didn't smell yucky anymore. GO FIGURE.

My guys (now guy--RIP Boomer) love the Honest Kitchen-I rehydrate and add chicken,salmon,tuna, tofu. My vet said she wished all her golden patients looked as fit and gorgeous as my guys!

Interested to see if anyone else uses HK...


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## agoldenliferanch (Aug 1, 2008)

bb'smom said:


> I've been using Honest Kitchen for the past 4 years-before that I used Dr. harvey's--before that Canidae. My first golden boy suffered from terrible allergies, developed seizures later in life (around 7)--lived to be almost 15. We fed him Science Diet until he was 13--switched to Canidae when we got a new puppy. Within 6 weeks--his skin improved, his fur was beautiful and he didn't smell yucky anymore. GO FIGURE.
> 
> My guys (now guy--RIP Boomer) love the Honest Kitchen-I rehydrate and add chicken,salmon,tuna, tofu. My vet said she wished all her golden patients looked as fit and gorgeous as my guys!
> 
> Interested to see if anyone else uses HK...


No...I haven't use it yet, but I am going to be buying some for trips and emergencies. I make my own but I went on the website and the "thrive" formula fits right in with how I'm feeding and it will be a lot easier that what I just went through which was cooking for a 10 day period while we were out of town. HK will be much easier for such occasions.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

bb'smom said:


> I've been using Honest Kitchen for the past 4 years-before that I used Dr. harvey's--before that Canidae. My first golden boy suffered from terrible allergies, developed seizures later in life (around 7)--lived to be almost 15. We fed him Science Diet until he was 13--switched to Canidae when we got a new puppy. Within 6 weeks--his skin improved, his fur was beautiful and he didn't smell yucky anymore. GO FIGURE.
> 
> My guys (now guy--RIP Boomer) love the Honest Kitchen-I rehydrate and add chicken,salmon,tuna, tofu. My vet said she wished all her golden patients looked as fit and gorgeous as my guys!
> 
> Interested to see if anyone else uses HK...




I LOVE The Honest Kitchen and tout it here quite often. Right now, I'm using it as a topper for either our Eagle Pack Holistic or Fromms. Strictly a cost cutting measure since I'm feeding 4. Would love to get back to feeding it exclusively.


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## bthazzard (Aug 27, 2009)

*Food in treatment for UTI*

I agree with you... I take 10 month old Roxie to a "very" expensive animal hospital near my area and they do not have good advice for proper nutrition. Roxie has had 2 UTI's now and all they want to do is put her on meds and science diet, despite SD is not a good food. I have her on Innova and Evo wet. I have tried supplementing with raw at night only 2x a week and she loves it! I am very careful when opening and handling this food: wash hands and work area with spray bleach. Her coat is shiny now and beautiful. I am not sure what to do about reoccuring UTI's I don't want to keep giving her antibiotics and I am not going to listen to dr about food they want her on. According to a great website she needs a meet based diet higher in acidity. Any suggestions from anyone would be helpful. Thanks.


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## nbloch64 (Feb 12, 2008)

bthazzard said:


> I am not sure what to do about reoccuring UTI's I don't want to keep giving her antibiotics and I am not going to listen to dr about food they want her on. According to a great website she needs a meet based diet higher in acidity. Any suggestions from anyone would be helpful. Thanks.


There are tons of support and information groups available for raw feeders or those interested in it. Go to Yahoo groups and look for rawfeeding and rawchat. They also have homeopathic groups and tons more. You will find information on there that is useful (I surf it daily and subscribe to many groups). Good luck!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

bthazzard said:


> I agree with you... I take 10 month old Roxie to a "very" expensive animal hospital near my area and they do not have good advice for proper nutrition. Roxie has had 2 UTI's now and all they want to do is put her on meds and science diet, despite SD is not a good food. I have her on Innova and Evo wet. I have tried supplementing with raw at night only 2x a week and she loves it! I am very careful when opening and handling this food: wash hands and work area with spray bleach. Her coat is shiny now and beautiful. I am not sure what to do about reoccuring UTI's I don't want to keep giving her antibiotics and I am not going to listen to dr about food they want her on. According to a great website she needs a meet based diet higher in acidity. Any suggestions from anyone would be helpful. Thanks.


 
Has Roxy experienced her first season yet? Many times after they have their season the UTI's tend to go away never to reappear. But not always. If you are not comfortable with the advice given by your vet please find another rather than to just ignore what they recommend. It may cause you/your dog a major problem later with your current vet. Many take the attitude, as do doctors, that if you are not going to take my advice don't waste my time. I have been there. 
Also if you go to the web to research a raw diet be careful. ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE, can put info out there with no idea at all what they are talking about. Much better to look for some books that at least reference some other studies/authorities. And unfortunately many of the "raw feeding" chat groups have really become very militant in their beliefs to a point that in my opinion is way off base.

Lastly understand that I am actually pro raw as I have fed my dogs raw for 12 years.


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## BJSalz (Mar 24, 2009)

I came across this thread doing a search for puppy food brands. I've also asked in the puppy section what brand that you all recommend. I feel clueless! The breeder recommended Iams so when I went to the pet store last night to get another bag of Iams, I had a conversation with another customer and the store owner about different brands. The customer recommended Natural Choice and the store owner recommended Blue brand. I want to give him the best quality food. Thanks for any recommendations!


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## Bob-N-Tash (Feb 24, 2008)

posting error


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## The_Artful_Dodger (Mar 26, 2009)

BJSalz said:


> I came across this thread doing a search for puppy food brands. I've also asked in the puppy section what brand that you all recommend. I feel clueless! The breeder recommended Iams so when I went to the pet store last night to get another bag of Iams, I had a conversation with another customer and the store owner about different brands. The customer recommended Natural Choice and the store owner recommended Blue brand. I want to give him the best quality food. Thanks for any recommendations!


There are so many different opinions on what makes the best pet food, that it is impossible to really say what is best. The debates go on and on. 

For instance, some people believe that a dog's diet should be primarily meat based, while others believe that the diet should have a balance of nutrients from a variety of sources. 

Some people avoid corn in dog food believing it to be hard to digest or leads to food alergies, while others believe that when cooked corn is highly digestible and a source of protien, carbohydrates, fibre, anti-oxyidants, and linoleic acid. 

By-products often get a bad rap because it is difficult to tell from the ingredient list what it actually contains. People often think of feet and beaks. The chicken by-products in the food Dodger eats is white meat, dark meat, liver, and viscera - with all chicken sourced from human grade facilities. 

And it goes on and on and on and on.....


It's no wonder why people get overwhelmed when choosing a food. I know that a lot of people would think the food I choose to feed Dodger is not very good, and while I respect other peoples opinions, I choose to form my own opinion. 


So what should you feed your dog? I have no idea. I would look for a food that is nutritionally balanced. Avoid grocery store brands. I guess it just comes down to what food works well for your dog.


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