# I get it now!



## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

So yesterday I had a training session with a group of four women that are all new to field work and training our various dogs (2 goldens, a toller, and a lab of various ages). Our "instructor" is a retired guy that just enjoys helping people train that are newish to the sport, pretty sure he's bored and likes having something to do lol. Its been great to get together and bounce ideas off each other. We started meeting because we all needed to force fetch our dogs and needed help. 

Well I had hit somewhat of a wall in the force fetch process and after talking it through with a couple people decided that it was time to collar condition, then finish up the force fetch process with the collar. I was worried that I was pushing too much and actually doing more harm than good, and nervous that I may be impacting his drive for field work.

So yesterday we decided to throw some marks since its finally starting to get warm and light enough in the evenings to train. Well my boy Fisher, who is entirely conformation lines absolutely zero field titles, was totally jacked for those marks. He was a disaster heeling (next time I'll have the prong on him) because he was so excited. Normally he's excellent, so this was a bit surprising to me. Then once we got out there, he showed just how driven he is for field work, which is a lot! He showed up the field golden (admittedly a timid one) and the toller. Anyway, all of my friends commented how awesome it is to watch him work. He doesn't know he's a fluffy pretty boy, in his mind he's a hardcore field golden. 

This all made me realize how I've been putting artificial constraints on him since he's not from a field breeding. Its time for me to buck up and start being firm (but fair). After I did a quick collar condition session (I wanted some other eyes on our session to make sure I was reading him right), I got out the training buck just to work on walking hold in a new environment. Well when doing that my friend called out that he is being willfully disobedient because he was mouthing the buck. I thought he was doing great, but after she pointed that out it totally made me realize its time to raise the standard for him. 

Overall, just a really good training session that gave me hope that I can train this boy past the junior hunter level! Enjoy a picture of the wild man!


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I love seeing this  Good for you and especially for your dog~ It's really awesome to see things coming together and that the teacher knows what he's talking about  I'm happy for you!


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

nolefan said:


> I love seeing this  Good for you and especially for your dog~ It's really awesome to see things coming together and that the teacher knows what he's talking about  I'm happy for you!


Thank you! It's such a different approach than training in other areas since the reward isn't a treat or a toy, it's a bird. Anyway, we are having fun figuring it out!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

myluckypenny said:


> Thank you! It's such a different approach than training in other areas since the reward isn't a treat or a toy, it's a bird. Anyway, we are having fun figuring it out!


The retrieve is the ultimate reward. I have even trained some obedience using the retrieve as a reward.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

gdgli said:


> The retrieve is the ultimate reward. I have even trained some obedience using the retrieve as a reward.


We made the mistake last week of trying to throw bumpers after we had used a pigeon, Fisher went over to the bumper then turned around and went to look for the pigeon. Lesson learned there, always end with the birds!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

myluckypenny said:


> We made the mistake last week of trying to throw bumpers after we had used a pigeon, Fisher went over to the bumper then turned around and went to look for the pigeon. Lesson learned there, always end with the birds!



Haha no the lesson is that force fetch in the future cleans that up so the dog fetches what you say to fetch not what he feels like fetching 

But seriously, as you advance the dog will need to retrieve birds and bumpers (in any order) in the same training session so do know there are specific steps along the way that curbs this "self choice" by the dog


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Yup, what Anney said! She gave me the same advise on my bitch who did not want to pick up bumpers after having birds. Well I learned and Lucy learned that I get to pick, not her. 

I’m glad you are having fun! Force fetch is such a high mountain to climb if you’ve never done it before. Don’t be surprised if you have to occasionally revisit FF. Once in awhile Lucy still thinks that it’s only a bumper and she really doesn’t need to pick it up. But FF is the only way you will get beyond junior hunt tests.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

K9-Design said:


> Haha no the lesson is that force fetch in the future cleans that up so the dog fetches what you say to fetch not what he feels like fetching


Very true! But as he's not through force fetch I shouldn't have tested it.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

myluckypenny said:


> Very true! But as he's not through force fetch I shouldn't have tested it.


An ear pinch to the bumper would have been the response from me. I would have used the opportunity to reinforce the FF command. But when my bitch did it, I didn’t know that then. Now I wouldn’t let my dog get away with it. The hardest part about FF, is knowing what is the right response from the dog or not. And what my response should be. I’m going to bet the next dog you FF, you’ll do it a little differently because of your experience with your current dog.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Alaska7133 said:


> An ear pinch to the bumper would have been the response from me. I would have used the opportunity to reinforce the FF command. But when my bitch did it, I didn’t know that then. Now I wouldn’t let my dog get away with it. The hardest part about FF, is knowing what is the right response from the dog or not. And what my response should be. I’m going to bet the next dog you FF, you’ll do it a little differently because of your experience with your current dog.


Absolutely! Its such a learning process for me as the handler and what the appropriate response should be in each situation. It will be nice to not be learning along with the dog next time.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

myluckypenny said:


> Absolutely! Its such a learning process for me as the handler and what the appropriate response should be in each situation. It will be nice to not be learning along with the dog next time.


Oh yah! Riot is my second dog to FF. He was so much easier than Lucy. He was solid on hold when he was very young (like 3-4 months old). So when we started FF when he had his adult teeth in, he was ready to advance. But you still have the struggles, you just have more ability to know kind of what to expect. I will do even better with the 3rd dog I FF. Which probably won't be for awhile!


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Follow up question - 

I've worked really hard on recall with Fisher and its definitely paid off. However, he doesn't slow down when coming towards me (his breaks aren't working lol). He is running full tilt and doesn't seem to know he should slow down before he gets to me. So I end up kind of dodging him or he'll run into my legs lol. Any tips on how I can get a little more refined recall? I'd like him to sit in front first before I move him to a heel.

Admittedly he is also not the most coordinated yet, so it may just be a result of him still growing and figuring out his body.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

myluckypenny said:


> Follow up question -
> 
> I've worked really hard on recall with Fisher and its definitely paid off. However, he doesn't slow down when coming towards me (his breaks aren't working lol). He is running full tilt and doesn't seem to know he should slow down before he gets to me. So I end up kind of dodging him or he'll run into my legs lol. Any tips on how I can get a little more refined recall? I'd like him to sit in front first before I move him to a heel.
> 
> Admittedly he is also not the most coordinated yet, so it may just be a result of him still growing and figuring out his body.


I like my dogs to come into heel, not into a front. 
Which ever location you prefer, I have a little short drill I do with my dogs when they are young. Take a bumper they really like. Keep the dog on leash. Put the dog in heel at your side. Hold the leash loosely. Throw the bumper 6' in front of you. Send the dog for the bumper. When the dog picks up the bumper, pull the dog to you with the leash and move them using the leash into position. Do it quickly and smoothly, so it will take a few times to figure it out. The idea is a quick short move that isn't extended out over 100 yards where he's harder to control. Just right in front of you. This will also give you an opportunity to correct any issues with "hold" if necessary. So it's throw, send, pull the dog back into position. Keep it simple and short. Then it's more muscle memory. Other people on here I'm sure have other tricks or drills they do.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Alaska7133 said:


> Take a bumper they really like. Keep the dog on leash. Put the dog in heel at your side. Hold the leash loosely. Throw the bumper 6' in front of you. Send the dog for the bumper. When the dog picks up the bumper, pull the dog to you with the leash and move them using the leash into position.


Oh this sounds perfect, I'll definitely give it a shot. Do you do competitive obedience too? I will potentially try it down the line and know that the dogs end the retrieve in a front position before finishing in the heel position. So I figured I'd start that way to begin with, but maybe its not worth it and I'll just teach the formal front at a later date?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I use "come" for competitive obedience, which means come and sit perfectly in front of me.
I use "here" for field, which means come to heel position. A lot of people simply use "heel", which also tells the dog where he's supposed to end up.
I wouldn't wait to teach both, I think that confuses them more. Just use a different word and he'll be fine.




myluckypenny said:


> Oh this sounds perfect, I'll definitely give it a shot. Do you do competitive obedience too? I will potentially try it down the line and know that the dogs end the retrieve in a front position before finishing in the heel position. So I figured I'd start that way to begin with, but maybe its not worth it and I'll just teach the formal front at a later date?


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

hotel4dogs said:


> I use "come" for competitive obedience, which means come and sit perfectly in front of me.
> I use "here" for field, which means come to heel position. A lot of people simply use "heel", which also tells the dog where he's supposed to end up.
> I wouldn't wait to teach both, I think that confuses them more. Just use a different word and he'll be fine.


That sounds like a good strategy, thanks!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I use front for when I want a front. Here or heel when I want him to return to my side. I don't use "come" at all. Whatever you decide, as long as you are consistent, it doesn't matter. Most of us in the field section of GRF, compete in obedience. Hotel4Dogs and Anney, both have UDX on dogs. I've only gone as far as CD, which isn't very far compared to a UDX!!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

And that right there is the heart of the matter!




Alaska7133 said:


> Whatever you decide, as long as you are consistent, it doesn't matter.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Just as an aside comment, in utility on the moving stand you want him to come to heel, not to front, but you do want him to sit in perfect heel position, preferably looking up at you.




Alaska7133 said:


> I use front for when I want a front. Here or heel when I want him to return to my side. I don't use "come" at all. Whatever you decide, as long as you are consistent, it doesn't matter. Most of us in the field section of GRF, compete in obedience. Hotel4Dogs and Anney, both have UDX on dogs. I've only gone as far as CD, which isn't very far compared to a UDX!!


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

hotel4dogs said:


> Just as an aside comment, in utility on the moving stand you want him to come to heel, not to front, but you do want him to sit in perfect heel position, preferably looking up at you.


Good to know! We aren't actively training in competitive obedience yet, this field stuff has taken all of our focus and will continue to be the focus for the foreseeable future . I would just prefer to not have to reteach certain things if I do decide to compete at a later date. 

I appreciate all the help, especially since you all have competed in the events I'm interested in (hunt tests, conformation, and obedience).


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

IM really glad you came to this realization. A lot of conformation golden owners tend to treat their dogs with kid gloves and it is frustrating to me. As if field goldens are some sort of brute of a dog that can handle massive consequences while they are training because they are some wild beasts and need it. ON the flip side it is as if "fluffies" can only handle things "dumbed" down and less demanding as to not to upset the dog. They are smart no matter which side of the fence they are on and can both be masters of manipulation. 
Train according to the dog you have which sounds like you have figured out! Push him to his limits not to some preconceived idea that he can only run short distances or whatever. If he is that talented it would be wonderful to see a pretty boy get qualified all age!


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> IM really glad you came to this realization. A lot of conformation golden owners tend to treat their dogs with kid gloves and it is frustrating to me. As if field goldens are some sort of brute of a dog that can handle massive consequences while they are training because they are some wild beasts and need it. ON the flip side it is as if "fluffies" can only handle things "dumbed" down and less demanding as to not to upset the dog. They are smart no matter which side of the fence they are on and can both be masters of manipulation.
> Train according to the dog you have which sounds like you have figured out! Push him to his limits not to some preconceived idea that he can only run short distances or whatever. If he is that talented it would be wonderful to see a pretty boy get qualified all age!


It was definitely a bit of a light bulb moment! He's a fun dog and I'll enjoy going as far as we are capable of, wherever that is.


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