# Competitive Areas



## AmberSunrise

I know in my area (CT, NY, MA), a 198.5 can now get you a HIT while several years ago you would not even be in the ribbons; there are many reasons for this. 

Will that change my focus? I honestly don't know, I love agility, I love field and to truly excel in Obedience just takes a _LOT_ of time, money and commitment..Fronts & Finishes and Abouts Turns and and and LOL Agility takes time and field takes a lot of time as well.


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## DNL2448

I wish we had a variety of trials, but sadly, we have one four day show per year. The rest you have to travel several hours. I just like to show. If I were in better shape, I would like to try agility, but don't think my body would hold up. Field events we have a few more offerings close by. If there were more obedience shows I would start attending them more frequently and maybe not be in the training rut I am in right now. (Though the puppy is helping)!


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## Stretchdrive

I have noticed that in our area we generally get higher scores at obedience only shows. It is possible to get HIT with a 197 at some of the all breed shows in our area, but obedience only trials are 198 and above. We currently have some awesome teams in our area! Our obedience only shows are also in metro areas, and pull a larger crowd, so it really depends on what show you are at, and if it has good judges or not.

That being said, I actually like showing in an area where we get higher scoring teams! Yes, it is harder to win, but I find tougher competition makes me work harder, and be more dedicated. There is so much to learn from people, and winning shouldn't be easy. I am proud to say that 6 of the current top 25 compete in our area


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## Titan1

ummmmm.. I guess I would not know.. I do know there are good dogs and handlers all over the country and also judges that differ from one another.


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## Loisiana

oh and I wasn't implying that I think all areas are equally competitive, obviously some areas are more competitive than others. I just don't get the "a 198.5 will never win a open B class here at any trial" comment that I hear from people from all over the country when they want to complain that the competition is too stiff, when I find that not to be true every time I check that claim out.


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## BayBeams

199 to 199.5 are pretty typical scores around here for most shows. Check the Bradshaw results. It depends on the judge but first place tends to rotate between 4-5 top exhibitors with one or two of the same peiople usually coming out on top. Most of them would cringe with a 198, sadly so....


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## hotel4dogs

Here too....the "repeat 200 club" is in this area. We have the only 3-time NOI winner here. We have last year's obedience dog of the year here (who is currently #3 all breed). We have some really big trainer/seminar people here.
I agree, at bigger shows, you tend to see the higher scores. The people who are really competitive don't bother with the small shows, there aren't enough points if they win.




BayBeams said:


> 199 to 199.5 are pretty typical scores around here for most shows. Check the Bradshaw results. It depends on the judge but first place tends to rotate between 4-5 top exhibitors with one or two of the same peiople usually coming out on top. Most of them would cringe with a 198, sadly so....


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

In Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, there are a lot of very good teams! Sometimes there are two teams tied for 200, and the second doesn't get a HIT. Very high 190's, even in utility are common. However, Casey and I earned a hit 2 hours north of Ottawa with a 195. However, our good luck was the bad luck of others that day. 195 is not a HIT score around here!


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## Loisiana

hotel4dogs said:


> I agree, at bigger shows, you tend to see the higher scores. The people who are really competitive don't bother with the small shows, there aren't enough points if they win.


That's exactly my point. Obviously the big trials are going to pull big scores. But that doesn't mean you can just discount the smaller trials. There is a huge differene between saying your area never has 198.5 winners and your main trials never do. 


Anyway, this is just something that has annoyed me the past couple of years when I hear somene say that if it's not true. Seems like a disservice to the sport when people make false claims. And it might be true in some areas, but none of the ones I have checked. I use the AKC Site when I check so I am looking at all the trials in that area,
not just a sampling of a super's trials.


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## GoldenSail

Seeing as I live in the more rural west I do not believe we have the superstars or high norms (although they are seen at times). I am not active at shows though so I do not know for sure.


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## BayBeams

Sorry to disagree but.... Even the "smaller" shows are attended by some of the top performers who are starting or finishing a new dog or need some "placements". For the most part a 198 still will not stand as a first. Recently, some all breed Basset Hound specialties attracted the "top" exhibitors leaving the rest of the handlers in the dust....
Not to say that is the case at ALL shows, of course not, but it is true for most shows in the area.
Doesn't really matter to me. I enjoy showing and observing even though we may be out of the ribbons.


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## hotel4dogs

I have shown Tito a couple of times (trust me, not many) where all the "big players" NQ'd and he did not, so anything can happen at any show....


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## Loisiana

I've already checked into it in almost all the New England states, plus IL, WI, and MN and of course states in my area long ago. I looked up CA this morning. Here is the break down of Open B winners in CA in May of last year:

1 200
3 199.5
3 199
4 198.5
1 198
1 197.5
2 197
1 195.5
1 195

I did not count any specialties (dang CA has a lot of specialties!), only all breed trials. Most of those scores between 197 and 198.5 were won by the big names, mainly Louise, DD, and Flo. 

Anyway, I look up results of trials in different areas just for the fun of it all the time, I like to keep up with who is doing what.


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## wakemup

Let's not forget that scores also depend a great deal on judging panels. I also agree that smaller shows don"t necessarily mean "easy pickings". I have seen a 197 take HIT at bigger shows, and seen a 199 not place at smaller shows. I agree with Jodie that it is unfortunate when people claim it can't be done in "their area" because of who else is there. The top handlers should just make the rest of us work a bit harder, and our success (when it comes) all the more sweet. Just my humble opinion.


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## AmberSunrise

Grins - please don't take this the wrong way, but I did get discouraged with my King who was a 197.5-198.5 dog in Open B. He was my Novice A dog and he was a tremendous worker and I was proud of him. 

After being told I was 'OTCh fodder' and how much my providing 'supporting entries' was appreciated for the ribbon contenders; well some of the joy disappears. 

I am unsure if any of those nasties are competing in my area any more so perhaps I can revisit the whole striving for an OTCh thing


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## Titan1

wakemup said:


> Let's not forget that scores also depend a great deal on judging panels. I also agree that smaller shows don"t necessarily mean "easy pickings". I have seen a 197 take HIT at bigger shows, and seen a 199 not place at smaller shows. I agree with Jodie that it is unfortunate when people claim it can't be done in "their area" because of who else is there. The top handlers should just make the rest of us work a bit harder, and our success (when it comes) all the more sweet. Just my humble opinion.


I totally agree! 
I earned mine going against a lot of top notch teams and am proudest of those wins. It maybe took a little longer than some but it was just sweeter then when it did happen. It made me a cleaner handler and us a better team. Depending on the judging and the day anyone can win any class anywhere..


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## hotel4dogs

I've got this all figured out. In order to get an OTCH on Tito, I need to go to a much less competitive area.
So I'm thinking this winter I want to go to Hawaii for 6 months and try to get his OTCH there .
Anyone else want to come (Michelle you and Titan are not included in this invite...)?


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## Titan1

hotel4dogs said:


> I've got this all figured out. In order to get an OTCH on Tito, I need to go to a much less competitive area.
> So I'm thinking this winter I want to go to Hawaii for 6 months and try to get his OTCH there .
> Anyone else want to come (Michelle you and Titan are not included in this invite...)?


Awwweee mannnnnn... I was just gonna sign up! I have never been to Hawaii and Titan would look cute with a lei...


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## Loisiana

hotel4dogs said:


> I've got this all figured out. In order to get an OTCH on Tito, I need to go to a much less competitive area.
> So I'm thinking this winter I want to go to Hawaii for 6 months and try to get his OTCH there .
> Anyone else want to come (Michelle you and Titan are not included in this invite...)?


naw, you got any idea how hard it is to earn an OTCH in Hawaii? Few trials, small classes...


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## Loisiana

Michelle you can come down here and trial! I kicked the cat out of the guestroom so it's an actual guestroom again!


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## hotel4dogs

well Michelle, actually you are invited if you promise not to enter Titan in any of the shows I enter


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## hotel4dogs

Then I just may have to stay longer 



Loisiana said:


> naw, you got any idea how hard it is to earn an OTCH in Hawaii? Few trials, small classes...


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## Loisiana

The last trial I was at first place for Open B was 199.5 but only 5 dogs showed. That always sucks.... I'd much rather big classes with more competition where you at least have a _chance_ than to be up there and have most of the placements worth points.


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## Titan1

Sunrise said:


> Grins - please don't take this the wrong way, but I did get discouraged with my King who was a 197.5-198.5 dog in Open B. He was my Novice A dog and he was a tremendous worker and I was proud of him.
> 
> After being told I was 'OTCh fodder' and how much my providing 'supporting entries' was appreciated for the ribbon contenders; well some of the joy disappears.
> 
> I am unsure if any of those nasties are competing in my area any more so perhaps I can revisit the whole striving for an OTCh thing


What a nasty bunch..YUCKO!


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## hotel4dogs

I think I've told you this before, but that type of behavior is more the norm than the exception in this area. Which is why I've said over and over what a great person Brenda is, she's not part of the nasties.



Titan1 said:


> What a nasty bunch..YUCKO!


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## Titan1

hotel4dogs said:


> I think I've told you this before, but that type of behavior is more the norm than the exception in this area. Which is why I've said over and over what a great person Brenda is, she's not part of the nasties.


That is unfortunate.. They usually leave me alone because of who I travel with or they have no idea of who I am.. which I love the most. 
When I 1st started out a couple times I left the ring in tears because of a certain someone in our area... (I needed to grow thicker skin)
Now I figure if they are picking on me maybe they are leaving someone else alone..


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## hotel4dogs

just remember, they are only picking on you because you are good!!!


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## wakemup

I am sorry that happened to you,Sunrise, and can understand how it made you feel. It is too bad that not all handlers can be supportive to fellow exhibitors. I have definitely experienced comments from "nasties", and am sorry that you have as well. There are definitely top handlers out there that are "class acts", however, and I hope you run into them too. Making new friends and rejoicing in their success is one of the funnest part of the sport for me. Good luck!


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## FlyingQuizini

wakemup said:


> I agree with Jodie that it is unfortunate when people claim it can't be done in "their area" because of who else is there. The top handlers should just make the rest of us work a bit harder, and our success (when it comes) all the more sweet. Just my humble opinion.


I agree with this to a point ... however, when the "top peeps" in your area are all retired and train for hours every day, I can never work as hard as they do b/c there aren't as many free hours in my day. Which is why I DO think there should be an OTCH class. In lure coursing, field champions are supposed to run against other field champions, not the open-level dogs. If obedience were the same, it would level the playing field a little bit .. at least up to the first OTCH. Want a second OTCH? Now you're playing with the big dogs.

At the end of the day, I just love being with my dog and I'm proud of how he works and the fun we have.


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## GoldenSail

hotel4dogs said:


> I've got this all figured out. In order to get an OTCH on Tito, I need to go to a much less competitive area.
> So I'm thinking this winter I want to go to Hawaii for 6 months and try to get his OTCH there .
> Anyone else want to come (Michelle you and Titan are not included in this invite...)?


Wyoming (where I grew up) has a total of like two shows a year. Looking at the results of one last year HIT was a 187 one day from Novice B, but there were no Utility B dogs, and only one Open B...


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## AmberSunrise

Titan1 said:


> That is unfortunate.. They usually leave me alone because of who I travel with or they have no idea of who I am.. which I love the most.
> When I 1st started out a couple times I left the ring in tears because of a certain someone in our area... (I needed to grow thicker skin)
> Now I figure if they are picking on me maybe they are leaving someone else alone..


So, I have to ask - who do you travel with


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## Loisiana

I hope they never make a seperate OTCH class. I love competing against the best of the best! I don't really think it's about quantity of time training, it's about quality. Having to compete against OTCH handlers makes me want to train all the more harder! And if they ever do make a competitive title where you don't have to compete against OTCH dogs, I hope they give it a different name.


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## AmberSunrise

You know, I have met some really great OTCh folks and train with a few  I truly hope I did not imply most OTCh people are among the nasties since it was really just a few - but, man can they spoil a good time! 

There are a few I have never met right here on this forum who are wonderful and I cannot imagine them trying to psych other handlers out or put them down so they could win a point or two; rather I can picture them giving the less experienced people pointers and helpful hints. Wow rereading that I was struck by the thought the nasties really are a sad lot ...




wakemup said:


> I am sorry that happened to you,Sunrise, and can understand how it made you feel. It is too bad that not all handlers can be supportive to fellow exhibitors. I have definitely experienced comments from "nasties", and am sorry that you have as well. There are definitely top handlers out there that are "class acts", however, and I hope you run into them too. Making new friends and rejoicing in their success is one of the funnest part of the sport for me. Good luck!


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## AmberSunrise

But how about if they did something with scores? Like you still need your 3 Firsts in the B classes but say a 197 is worth 1 point, a 198 is worth 3 points, a 199 is worth 5 points and a 200 is worth 10 points. The scores might even be averaged from the 2 classes to reward consistency and awarded toward your OTCh.. Okay the 200 would stand on its own LOL

Excellence in training, teamwork and handling would still be rewarded and there would probably be more standard judging; since the seperation of placements would not be so important. 



Loisiana said:


> I hope they never make a seperate OTCH class. I love competing against the best of the best! I don't really think it's about quantity of time training, it's about quality. Having to compete against OTCH handlers makes me want to train all the more harder! And if they ever do make a competitive title where you don't have to compete against OTCH dogs, I hope they give it a different name.


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## Loisiana

But we already have a set of titles based on scores. The OM1 through the OGM are all score based. 

And the other problem is then people will be flocking to the judges who are "easy." Right now those judges are usually the first to be passed up by good trainers.


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## Titan1

Okay I don't agree...I am working full time and have kids at home. I did it and I am still married and my kids still know my name..LOL!
In my travels I have met some of the nicest dog show people. I have my own family, my work family and my dog show family. I enjoy meeting new people and I hope that I always have time to chat with new handlers.. if you have been to shows with me you will know that I love to help if I can..


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## Loisiana

Titan1 said:


> Okay I don't agree...I am working full time and have kids at home. .


Don't forget all the time you spend checking in with GRF! ROFL


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## Titan1

Loisiana said:


> Don't forget all the time you spend checking in with GRF! ROFL


 
Oops .. that would be during working full time..I think it is in my job description.. either that or your kids have paid me to keep you busy during class..


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## Loisiana

Titan1 said:


> either that or your kids have paid me to keep you busy during class..


haha, probably so! Firewall's down today, I even have Facebook!


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## sammydog

Loisiana said:


> I use the AKC Site when I check so I am looking at all the trials in that area,
> not just a sampling of a super's trials.


How do you look up scores? I am curious!!


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## AmbikaGR

Go to the "Events" section of the AKC site. Search past shows in the states you to check the scores of. Then click on that show. Go to the obedience section of that show and then click on the "Class" to see the qualifiers and scores. Try to remember to click on the class and not the judge like I do more than half the time.


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## Stretchdrive

Titan1 said:


> That is unfortunate.. They usually leave me alone because of who I travel with or they have no idea of who I am.. which I love the most.
> When I 1st started out a couple times I left the ring in tears because of a certain someone in our area... (I needed to grow thicker skin)
> Now I figure if they are picking on me maybe they are leaving someone else alone..


Speaking of the person you travel with, Do you know where they got that chain martingale from? I would like to try one with Rivet.

I have found what I will just call the "OTCH trainers" to be some of the nicest, and most helpful people I have met I find it sad that I have had to set people straight, when they make unjust comments about the "OTCH trainers".


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## sammydog

AmbikaGR said:


> Go to the "Events" section of the AKC site. Search past shows in the states you to check the scores of. Then click on that show. Go to the obedience section of that show and then click on the "Class" to see the qualifiers and scores. Try to remember to click on the class and not the judge like I do more than half the time.


Hank you are awesome! I never knew how to do that!! I am excited! You can see agility results too! Yay!


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## AmbikaGR

sammydog said:


> Hank you are awesome!


Thank you for the kind words. :wavey:
Maybe I can direct my daughter to this quote, I have been telling her this her entire life! :bowrofl:


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## AmbikaGR

Stretchdrive said:


> I have found what I will just call the "OTCH trainers" to be some of the nicest, and most helpful people I have met I find it sad that I have had to set people straight, when they make unjust comments about the "OTCH trainers".



I have to agree. I hear it more from the "wanabes" than the top trainers/handlers.


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## FlyingQuizini

Loisiana said:


> I hope they never make a seperate OTCH class. I love competing against the best of the best! I don't really think it's about quantity of time training, it's about quality. Having to compete against OTCH handlers makes me want to train all the more harder! And if they ever do make a competitive title where you don't have to compete against OTCH dogs, I hope they give it a different name.


I guess IMO it should be a championship title, not a "nudge-shy-of-perfect-score" title. And when you have to pull a 199 or 199.5 on most days (in some areas) to take first, that just seems extreme to me ... especially when a 170 is passing. Dogs who consistently pull 195+ are turning in really nice performances. I guess I just feel like it's "friendlier" to recognize the top 5 percent vs. the top 2 percent.

Plus, if there was an OTCH class, if you were someone who wanted to compete against OTCH handlers before you had your OTCH, you could, but not the other way around. Like how a green handler can show in B, but an experienced handler can't show in A classes.


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## Loisiana

The AKC has said from day one that their goal is to award about 100 OTCH's a year. They are still getting that number today using their current system. It is a title that was created for the best of the best. AKC keeps adding new titles to keep people happy. All those title options, and only ONE of them requires any placements. My feeling is don't make the OTCH easier to obtain because that lowers its value. My goal is to someday earn a OTCH, and if it takes making 199 and above on a regular basis to get it then that is what I will train for, and if there are that many trainers that are still regularly better than me showing, then I havent earned the title. There are still plenty of other titles I can go for.


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## Stretchdrive

Loisiana said:


> The AKC has said from day one that their goal is to award about 100 OTCH's a year. They are still getting that number today using their current system. It is a title that was created for the best of the best. AKC keeps adding new titles to keep people happy. All those title options, and only ONE of them requires any placements. My feeling is don't make the OTCH easier to obtain because that lowers its value. My goal is to someday earn a OTCH, and if it takes making 199 and above on a regular basis to get it then that is what I will train for, and if there are that many trainers that are still regularly better than me showing, then I havent earned the title. There are still plenty of other titles I can go for.


 
Well said!


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## FlyingQuizini

Loisiana said:


> The AKC has said from day one that their goal is to award about 100 OTCH's a year. They are still getting that number today using their current system. It is a title that was created for the best of the best. AKC keeps adding new titles to keep people happy. All those title options, and only ONE of them requires any placements. My feeling is don't make the OTCH easier to obtain because that lowers its value. My goal is to someday earn a OTCH, and if it takes making 199 and above on a regular basis to get it then that is what I will train for, and if there are that many trainers that are still regularly better than me showing, then I havent earned the title. There are still plenty of other titles I can go for.


I think the reason it bugs me IS because there are so many titles that don't require placements, or don't otherwise recognize dogs who earn the titles with exceptional scores. It's too much of an extreme from "collect these titles > requirements for OTCH." I don't agree with the fact that dog A can earn a UD with three scores of 170 and dog B can earn the same title with 197, 198 and 198.5 ... but now all of a sudden, for dog B to be recognized as a champion and earn an OTCH, he might need to consistently score 199. It almost makes OTCH the only "big deal" title in terms of scores. Sad to me that dogs along the way aren't better recognized... (unless you want to "buy" recognition from Front & Finish. No offense to those who do, but that, IMO, is more about clever marketing than recognizing achievement) ... because it should be a bid deal to achieve scores over a certain point. 

Just my humble opinion ... which, not even having a UD on my dog yet, might not mean much!


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## Loisiana

So for those who feel the requirements for the OTCH are too much and dogs who don't just qualify but also frequently score high deserve aother title, why doesn't the Obedience Master title fit that bill for you? It is a title based on having high scores.


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## hotel4dogs

whew, a few thoughts.
First, the AKC keeps inventing titles to make more money for the AKC. Not to keep people happy. 
IMO, the OTCH is fine just the way it is. It's like an AKC breed CH on a golden, it isn't easy to get, and when you get one, it truly means something. If they made it easier to get, it wouldn't mean as much.
I don't give a flaming hoot about OTCH points, or HIT, or high combined for my dog. It's not what we set out to do, never was and still isn't a goal of mine. 
I totally agree, the OM and OGM titles fill the void. 
But competing with people who have put MULTIPLE OTCh's on dogs, are professional trainers, etc. can get disheartening. When your dog really does a great job and scores a 198, and isn't in the top 4 places, in fact when a 198 is RARELY in the top 4 places, it makes us mere mortals a bit frustrated. And I think that's where people would possibly like to see a class, maybe Utility C, and Open C, for dogs that already have an OTCH.
Now I know it would never happen, and the logistics would be a nightmare in terms of trying to keep track of it, but it would possibly encourage more people to stay in the sport for longer if they didn't have to compete with professionals who are showing their 10th OTCH dog. 
For that exact reason I have never shown Tito in Rally Excellent. I don't think it's fair to the other competitors to take a UDX dog into a rally ring, just so I can change the title after his name. 
Obedience is a dying sport. People need to take a good hard look at why. Especially the A class entries are badly down, at least in this area. Everything that can be done to encourage people to try the sport, and to stay in it, needs to be done or none of us will have the venue in which to show any more. More and more clubs are doing away with the obedience portion of their shows.
I know what I'm trying to say, but not sure I'm doing a very good job of it.


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## hotel4dogs

the AKC has also started allowing non-competitive titles to come before the dog's name, although originally that was not to be allowed......


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## Loisiana

But we already have it set so you can go all the way through your utilty title without ever having to compete against an OTCH trainer. The only people who have to move up to the B classes are those who want to continue on past that.

I don't think there is anything wrong with showing a UDX dog in rally either. If the dog doent have any titles he will be in the A class. So where would it be fair to draw the line on dogs that can show in rally if they are in the B class? No dogs past a CD? Personally I love seeing people bring their retired obedience dogs out for rally and letting them have something fun to do.


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## Loisiana

and I am still yet to find a state where a 198 rarely places


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## hotel4dogs

But Tito isn't a retired obedience dog coming back out to have fun...
We went on for a UDX, so I did have to go against the OTCH people in the shows. 
I must go to the wrong shows, then. I don't show a lot, but at the shows I've been to, that's normally the case. 




Loisiana said:


> and I am still yet to find a state where a 198 rarely places


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## Titan1

Okay , I can't shut up any longer I just have to say something. The best way I can think of to describe what I need to say is this. Say you are a marathon runner.. what is the chance you will go out and win..Not much huh? Does that take away from all the hard work you put into crossing that finish line? Would that stop you from running in the next marathon? Probably not but you could have a goal to better your next time..this is the way I think obedience has been for me..
It's about the journey for most of us. I have been showing enough over the past few years to see any score win any class. If you are showing for any title besides the OTCH those placements don't really matter. Not really!The OTCH should be hard to get, really hard otherwise it would mean nothing. I show against tough teams, who doesn't... it makes the wins that much sweeter! 
I am not a well known trainer, I don't do seminars, I work full time and have a family.
I don't or can't afford to show every weekend so I will never get dog of the year.. does that really matter for me in the end.. not really. 
I go out to enjoy the time I spend with my dog and as long as "HE" loves his job we will continue. Whether we place or not does not determine whether I keep going or not.... Okay off my soapbox..sorry!


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## AmberSunrise

Wow, very well said Michelle! It is all about the journey and enjoying the process. I feel it is also about learning to both win and lose graciously, and feeling proud that you and your dog are together in the ring.

I feel it is also about not expecting your dogs to show above the level they are trained to (I have lowered my expectations for my dogs based on my training time) and admiring those who show their dogs at the highest levels with grace and joy.

And for the bulk of the class - when they are enjoying their time and work, congratulating them too since they are trained to way higher levels than the average dog and they are working as a team. 



Titan1 said:


> Okay , I can't shut up any longer I just have to say something. The best way I can think of to describe what I need to say is this. Say you are a marathon runner.. what is the chance you will go out and win..Not much huh? Does that take away from all the hard work you put into crossing that finish line? Would that stop you from running in the next marathon? Probably not but you could have a goal to better your next time..this is the way I think obedience has been for me..
> It's about the journey for most of us. I have been showing enough over the past few years to see any score win any class. If you are showing for any title besides the OTCH those placements don't really matter. Not really!The OTCH should be hard to get, really hard otherwise it would mean nothing. I show against tough teams, who doesn't... it makes the wins that much sweeter!
> I am not a well known trainer, I don't do seminars, I work full time and have a family.
> I don't or can't afford to show every weekend so I will never get dog of the year.. does that really matter for me in the end.. not really.
> I go out to enjoy the time I spend with my dog and as long as "HE" loves his job we will continue. Whether we place or not does not determine whether I keep going or not.... Okay off my soapbox..sorry!


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## GoldenSail

I like that the OTCH is so competitive, so it means something. I do, however, wish they found a way to recognize those dogs that scored very well to get their titles (195+) versus those that just got by (170s).


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## hotel4dogs

Very well said, Michelle. 



Titan1 said:


> Okay , I can't shut up any longer I just have to say something. The best way I can think of to describe what I need to say is this. Say you are a marathon runner.. what is the chance you will go out and win..Not much huh? Does that take away from all the hard work you put into crossing that finish line? Would that stop you from running in the next marathon? Probably not but you could have a goal to better your next time..this is the way I think obedience has been for me..
> It's about the journey for most of us. I have been showing enough over the past few years to see any score win any class. If you are showing for any title besides the OTCH those placements don't really matter. Not really!The OTCH should be hard to get, really hard otherwise it would mean nothing. I show against tough teams, who doesn't... it makes the wins that much sweeter!
> I am not a well known trainer, I don't do seminars, I work full time and have a family.
> I don't or can't afford to show every weekend so I will never get dog of the year.. does that really matter for me in the end.. not really.
> I go out to enjoy the time I spend with my dog and as long as "HE" loves his job we will continue. Whether we place or not does not determine whether I keep going or not.... Okay off my soapbox..sorry!


----------



## hotel4dogs

Or dogs who got their title in just 3 shows....or got all their titles within a certain number of months.....or got their title under the age of (fill in the blank)....or dogs who are handled by a novice handler and scored high....where would you draw the line?
And this is going to sound VERY snarky, but I really really admire some people showing *unusual* breeds in obedience, like the gal I met in MI who had put UDs on 2 basset hounds. For them to qualify, even in the 170's, is a huge achievement on the part of that trainer, perhaps more so than the goldens and border collies scoring in the 195's. JMO of course, and I know I'm opening myself up to some criticism on this one.





GoldenSail said:


> I like that the OTCH is so competitive, so it means something. I do, however, wish they found a way to recognize those dogs that scored very well to get their titles (195+) versus those that just got by (170s).


----------



## Loisiana

First let me note that I'm not posting this to be argumentative, looking this kind of stuff up is my idea of a good time (yep, I don't deny I have a little bit of nerd in me LOL). But Barb, you are definately going to the wrong trials if you rarely see a 198 in the placements! These are the results of all the all breed trials in IL last May. First score is the first place score, second score is the 4th place score:


198.5 196
199 197
198.5 197
199 198
198.5 198
199 197.5
198.5 196.5
198 196
197.5 194.5
198.5 192
197 194.5


----------



## Titan1

hotel4dogs said:


> Or dogs who got their title in just 3 shows....or got all their titles within a certain number of months.....or got their title under the age of (fill in the blank)....or dogs who are handled by a novice handler and scored high....where would you draw the line?
> And this is going to sound VERY snarky, but I really really admire some people showing *unusual* breeds in obedience, like the gal I met in MI who had put UDs on 2 basset hounds. For them to qualify, even in the 170's, is a huge achievement on the part of that trainer, perhaps more so than the goldens and border collies scoring in the 195's. JMO of course, and I know I'm opening myself up to some criticism on this one.


Nope not snarky..When I see a different breed I love to see them do well.
You know some have to work harder than others but it is also their choice of breed. I have some different breeds in my obedience class and I have to keep reminding them that they can't look at a certain dog and expect to have the same results in the same amount of time.. Heck you can't even do that within Goldens. They are all bred with something different in mind. So I think most of us appreciate those dedicated souls that go out work hard..


----------



## hotel4dogs

LOLOL you crack me up....
But please do WI, IN, and MI instead, because the big May shows are in those 3 states, not IL.
Oh and BTW Jodie, I adore you. You and I can disagree on this all day and it will never change my good opinion of you. Just so you know.





Loisiana said:


> First let me note that I'm not posting this to be argumentative, looking this kind of stuff up is my idea of a good time (yep, I don't deny I have a little bit of nerd in me LOL). But Barb, you are definately going to the wrong trials if you rarely see a 198 in the placements! These are the results of all the all breed trials in IL last May. First score is the first place score, second score is the 4th place score:
> 
> 
> 198.5 196
> 199 197
> 198.5 197
> 199 198
> 198.5 198
> 199 197.5
> 198.5 196.5
> 198 196
> 197.5 194.5
> 198.5 192
> 197 194.5


----------



## Loisiana

I don't think you can base it on breed but on the individual dog. There are some golden retrievers, border collies, and shelties that are just as difficult to train or show as any other breed. And on the other hand, there are some dogs in lesser shown breeds that are absolutely spectacular. I know my Lhasa Apso was a thousand times easier to train and show than Annabel! I felt much more of a sense of accomplishment when I did well with Annabel than any other dog because even though she's a golden retriever she is definately not what one would look for in an obedience star!


----------



## Loisiana

hotel4dogs said:


> LOLOL you crack me up....
> But please do WI, IN, and MI instead, because the big May shows are in those 3 states, not IL.
> Oh and BTW Jodie, I adore you. You and I can disagree on this all day and it will never change my good opinion of you. Just so you know.


But that's not my point...if you know where the big shows are and someone wants placements and points but knows they won't be competitive at those big shows, go to different shows! If you aren't in the top one percent of handlers and you still want placements and points you do have to put more thought into which shows you enter but it doesn't make it impossible! Of course there are going to be trials with super high scores, but not all of them.

And I love ya too Barb! :kiss:


----------



## hotel4dogs

And I agree! If you want placements and points around here, go to the few outside shows you can find. Pretty much none of the "repeat-200 club" here will show outside.
But of course, since I wasn't looking for points, and not particularly placements (although of course they are always nice, but they weren't my main focus), I normally ended up at the big shows.




Loisiana said:


> But that's not my point...if you know where the big shows are and someone wants placements and points but knows they won't be competitive at those big shows, go to different shows! If you aren't in the top one percent of handlers and you still want placements and points you do have to put more thought into which shows you enter but it doesn't make it impossible! Of course there are going to be trials with super high scores, but not all of them.
> 
> And I love ya too Barb! :kiss:


----------



## K9-Design

hotel4dogs said:


> Or dogs who got their title in just 3 shows....or got all their titles within a certain number of months.....or got their title under the age of (fill in the blank)....or dogs who are handled by a novice handler and scored high....where would you draw the line?


EXACTLY!!!!
You know what they call a med student who graduates last in their class?
A DOCTOR
The ONLY person who will remember OR CARE if their dog got its UD in three shows with 200s is THE OWNER. Nobody else. 

There are discrepancies in every title. Did the CH finish in a month owner handled at specialties? Or did it take $25K, four pro handlers and three years? It's the same two initials. If it matters to you, then ASK the owner and either do or don't breed to that dog or buy it's puppy based on that.


----------



## Loisiana

I've never liked the idea of a title that wouldn't be earned on the basis of one bad day. Seems like that would frustrate people more than anything! I've always liked the saying "there's always another dog show"


----------



## Stretchdrive

I used to think it would be impossible for me to get an OTCH on any dog, and I hated the idea of having to show against the people that were consistently putting in high scores. I thought an OTCH was a title that was only reserved for certain people. Then a couple years ago I came to the realization many OTCH trainers probably felt the same way at one point. What I needed to do was put in all the effort and dedication that these people put in, and an OTCH would definately be possible. It doesn't bother me at all now about having to show in the same classes as the OTCH trainers. I now see it as showing with these people in classes, as opposed to showing against them. I have definately changed my views on training in general, and am really looking forward to showing with the people that consistently do well. I am glad an OTCH is a tough title to get, and I look forward to getting one someday


----------



## GoldenSail

hotel4dogs said:


> Or dogs who got their title in just 3 shows....or got all their titles within a certain number of months.....or got their title under the age of (fill in the blank)....or dogs who are handled by a novice handler and scored high....where would you draw the line?
> And this is going to sound VERY snarky, but I really really admire some people showing *unusual* breeds in obedience, like the gal I met in MI who had put UDs on 2 basset hounds. For them to qualify, even in the 170's, is a huge achievement on the part of that trainer, perhaps more so than the goldens and border collies scoring in the 195's. JMO of course, and I know I'm opening myself up to some criticism on this one.


Uh...doesn't Tito have a couple of those from Front and Finish? :curtain: I guess I personally appreciate the ability of a dog to score high and with style, even if it is not enough to get an OTCH. I sure would love to know...

There is a trainer in my area who has an OTCH on not one, but two blue tick hounds, the first and only so far. THAT is impressive. I do agree other breeds doing well is cool, and that they can achieve and beat the goldens when put with a fantastic trainer. As far as what is a bigger achievement--a golden with a 195 or a bloodhound with a 170--eh, dogs are individuals it would be hard to say. And if someone trains well enough to get very nice scores they should get kudos regardless of the breed.


----------



## GoldenSail

K9-Design said:


> EXACTLY!!!!
> You know what they call a med student who graduates last in their class?
> A DOCTOR
> The ONLY person who will remember OR CARE if their dog got its UD in three shows with 200s is THE OWNER. Nobody else.
> 
> There are discrepancies in every title. Did the CH finish in a month owner handled at specialties? Or did it take $25K, four pro handlers and three years? It's the same two initials. If it matters to you, then ASK the owner and either do or don't breed to that dog or buy it's puppy based on that.


Sure, but which doctor do you want to go to? The one that barely passed or the one that excelled? I get the point that we don't want tons of titles, but I still wish there were a way to recognize teams that scored really well.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Oh, I'm very proud of Tito's accomplishments (yes, he has a FFX-OG for getting all 3 titles within 14 months), but the point is, which accomplishments do you choose to reward? The high scores? The young age? The rapid titles? 
My point was just that everyone has a different definition of what's impressive. So how would you pick which should be acknowledged? While you personally appreciate the ability of a dog to score high and with style, I personally appreciate the ability of a dog to zoom thru the titles in just a few shows, at a young age. I think it shows a certain native ability that wasn't the result of hours and hours of endless training. Neither of us is wrong, we just appreciate different things, which was my point.
If someone trains well enough to get really nice scores, typically they get placement ribbons, which is kudos! 
To me personally, a blue tick **** hound with an OTCH is really, really impressive. 



GoldenSail said:


> Uh...doesn't Tito have a couple of those from Front and Finish? :curtain: I guess I personally appreciate the ability of a dog to score high and with style, even if it is not enough to get an OTCH. I sure would love to know...
> 
> There is a trainer in my area who has an OTCH on not one, but two blue tick hounds, the first and only so far. THAT is impressive. I do agree other breeds doing well is cool, and that they can achieve and beat the goldens when put with a fantastic trainer. As far as what is a bigger achievement--a golden with a 195 or a bloodhound with a 170--eh, dogs are individuals it would be hard to say. And if someone trains well enough to get very nice scores they should get kudos regardless of the breed.


----------



## hotel4dogs

There is...it's called High in Trial. Lovely ribbons/awards.
Also called High Combined. Again, lovely ribbons/awards.



GoldenSail said:


> Sure, but which doctor do you want to go to? The one that barely passed or the one that excelled? I get the point that we don't want tons of titles, but I still wish there were a way to recognize teams that scored really well.


----------



## GoldenSail

hotel4dogs said:


> There is...it's called High in Trial. Lovely ribbons/awards.
> Also called High Combined. Again, lovely ribbons/awards.


But according to you, you can't get that with a 198....and a 198 is very good.


----------



## GoldenSail

hotel4dogs said:


> Oh, I'm very proud of Tito's accomplishments (yes, he has a FFX-OG for getting all 3 titles within 14 months), but the point is, which accomplishments do you choose to reward? The high scores? The young age? The rapid titles?
> My point was just that everyone has a different definition of what's impressive. So how would you pick which should be acknowledged? While you personally appreciate the ability of a dog to score high and with style, I personally appreciate the ability of a dog to zoom thru the titles in just a few shows, at a young age. I think it shows a certain native ability that wasn't the result of hours and hours of endless training. Neither of us is wrong, we just appreciate different things, which was my point.
> If someone trains well enough to get really nice scores, typically they get placement ribbons, which is kudos!
> To me personally, a blue tick **** hound with an OTCH is really, really impressive.


So you do not like the idea, but at the same time did not hesitate to 'add' another title to Tito's name to show off his accomplishment. Not a bad thing, IMO. Still, if you can score very nicely with 198s and are out of the ribbons (hence no OTCH) I wish there were a way to honor or acknowledge that rather than word of mouth. Your FFX-OG award lets everyone know he finished his CD-UD in 14 months. So it's ok to have that but not something else? :curtain:


----------



## GoldenSail

I get that not everyone agrees with me, which is fine. But I just wanted to point out that you could totally do it without adding additional titles (really). Just make a designation such as cum laude, magna cum laude, and summa cum laude. Base it on scores so it is non-competitive. So you could have CD, c-CD, m-CD, or s-CD. All still the same title, just with honorary designations.

Ok I'm done.


----------



## Loisiana

If you earn your titles from the A classes with scores of 198 I can almost guarantee you will be in the placements.

Another problem with any kind of title or designation based on what scores earned the title: there are always judges out there with personal pet peeves they shouldn't be scoring against but do anyway, or are still misinterpreting a rule and taking off points for something they shouldn't. Like the judge who was taking off 3 points for every left finish that the handler returned her hand to the waist. At the time it sucked for those handlers, but they just knew to make sure either never show under that judge again or make sure to contact AKC and have them straighten the judge out. No long term damage. But what if a team working towards a title that day should have earned a score in the upper 190's but instead the judge hit them 12 points for raising a hand on each finish? It's stuff like that that makes me not like things that can be lost in one trial.


----------



## hotel4dogs

But as Anney said, the only person who cares about the FFX-OG and what it stands for is ME! Betcha very few other people even know what it is, and even fewer care that it's there.
When people have called me about using Tito at stud, or when prospective puppy buyers have called me, no one has asked what his scores were like. But universally they do ask about his learning ability, and his intelligence. Truly, I think Anney is right, no one but the owner cares about how young, how fast, or with what scores....



GoldenSail said:


> So you do not like the idea, but at the same time did not hesitate to 'add' another title to Tito's name to show off his accomplishment. Not a bad thing, IMO. Still, if you can score very nicely with 198s and are out of the ribbons (hence no OTCH) I wish there were a way to honor or acknowledge that rather than word of mouth. Your FFX-OG award lets everyone know he finished his CD-UD in 14 months. So it's ok to have that but not something else? :curtain:


----------



## GoldenSail

Loisiana said:


> If you earn your titles from the A classes with scores of 198 I can almost guarantee you will be in the placements.
> 
> Another problem with any kind of title or designation based on what scores earned the title: there are always judges out there with personal pet peeves they shouldn't be scoring against but do anyway, or are still misinterpreting a rule and taking off points for something they shouldn't. Like the judge who was taking off 3 points for every left finish that the handler returned her hand to the waist. At the time it sucked for those handlers, but they just knew to make sure either never show under that judge again or make sure to contact AKC and have them straighten the judge out. No long term damage. But what if a team working towards a title that day should have earned a score in the upper 190's but instead the judge hit them 12 points for raising a hand on each finish? It's stuff like that that makes me not like things that can be lost in one trial.


You're right. Stuff like that can happen that sucks. Hey, it happens in school too. You get the crummy professor and end up not graduating with honors because of it. Nothing you can do about it. It is just a thought/suggestion. Something that people who do score well but can't (or don't think they can) compete with OTCH trainers. It sounds like there is a lot of frustration there for some people.


----------



## hotel4dogs

We just have to agree to disagree. Yes, you could do that, but that says that ONLY scores are important. Not age...not number of shows to get the title...not percent qualifying scores, you could go on and on.
It's obvious that high scores are very important to you, and I think that's great! I know you work really hard with Scout, and I'm sure you will be getting high scores with her, so I understand you wanting acknowledgement of your hard work and achievement. But AKC really can't acknowledge one achievement to the exclusion of all others; others may put more value on different achievements. Why not a designation for the number of HITs? Or the number of High Combined? Independent organizations, like Front and Finish, can acknowledge whatever achievements they choose to. For all I know, they might? If not, maybe you could contact them and suggest they offer an award similar to the FFX-OG for high scores? I'm sure others would like it, too. Remember, Tito's FFX-OG is NOT an AKC title and doesn't appear on his formal paperwork anywhere. Heck, it's not even a GRCA title, which is why it appears at the end of his string of letters. 



GoldenSail said:


> I get that not everyone agrees with me,
> 
> which is fine. But I just wanted to point out that you could totally do it without adding additional titles (really). Just make a designation such as cum laude, magna cum laude, and summa cum laude. Base it on scores so it is non-competitive. So you could have CD, c-CD, m-CD, or s-CD. All still the same title, just with honorary designations.
> 
> Ok I'm done.


----------



## Loisiana

hotel4dogs said:


> Independent organizations, like Front and Finish, can acknowledge whatever achievements they choose to. For all I know, they might? If not, maybe you could contact them and suggest they offer an award similar to the FFX-OG for high scores? I'm sure others would like it, too. .


They already do. They took over the old Dog World Awards. Platinum level for earning you title in three shows with scores of 195 and above. Gold level for earning titles in three shows with scores of 190 and above.

Although to be honest, I'm really not sure how long Front and Finish is going to be around anymore..


----------



## hotel4dogs

In the A class in utility around here, a Q is pretty much a guarantee of a placement! Open, almost the same...



Loisiana said:


> If you earn your titles from the A classes with scores of 198 I can almost guarantee you will be in the placements.
> 
> Another problem with any kind of title or designation based on what scores earned the title: there are always judges out there with personal pet peeves they shouldn't be scoring against but do anyway, or are still misinterpreting a rule and taking off points for something they shouldn't. Like the judge who was taking off 3 points for every left finish that the handler returned her hand to the waist. At the time it sucked for those handlers, but they just knew to make sure either never show under that judge again or make sure to contact AKC and have them straighten the judge out. No long term damage. But what if a team working towards a title that day should have earned a score in the upper 190's but instead the judge hit them 12 points for raising a hand on each finish? It's stuff like that that makes me not like things that can be lost in one trial.


----------



## K9-Design

GoldenSail said:


> Sure, but which doctor do you want to go to? The one that barely passed or the one that excelled? I get the point that we don't want tons of titles, but I still wish there were a way to recognize teams that scored really well.


Well that's what I just said. If it matters to you, you can ASK the owner how the dog scored or download it's event history and judge for yourself.
The way we recognize teams that score really well, is a title called OTCH!!!
Do you want a NOTCH title? Novice Obedience Trial Champion? I mean, I'm not understanding why the OTCH doesn't give fit the bill for what you're asking.
If your dog is fantastic and scores a 198 consistently but that's not getting you OTCH points, THEN GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. It is not unheard of you know, to travel to shows. If you are sitting home crying because that doesn't let you win in your hometown trial, well boohoo, get in the car and drive where it will!
Fisher finished his CH in Indiana. Got his first SH leg in Pennsylvania. Got a major in Kentucky. 2nd MH pass in Tennessee. WCX in Oklahoma. All over a day's drive from where I live. The nearby competitions didn't have what I wanted, whether it was the judges, fellow competitors, time table, what have you. If you really want to be competitive it's the nature of the sport that you need to travel.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Besides, the only reason I list the FFX-OG after Tito's name is because I want him to have as many titles as Fisher, who has been our inspiration in a lot of ways. Well that and Fishie's Daddy, Yogi...


----------



## hotel4dogs

On a related note, we showed at a show in southern Indiana (obedience) in the pouring rain. It was at a fairgrounds, and I asked one of the club members why they didn't hold the obedience in one of the available, empty buildings. 
She told me, oh, we don't hold indoor shows, "we don't like the people they attract. This way we can get our OTCH wins..."


----------



## Stretchdrive

hotel4dogs said:


> On a related note, we showed at a show in southern Indiana (obedience) in the pouring rain. It was at a fairgrounds, and I asked one of the club members why they didn't hold the obedience in one of the available, empty buildings.
> She told me, oh, we don't hold indoor shows, "we don't like the people they attract. This way we can get our OTCH wins..."


 poo on that club


----------



## hotel4dogs

To be honest, that was poorly handled on her part and she never should have said that to me. 
But on the flip side, if you can't show your dog outside because it will act like a goofyball, and others' dogs can perform whether inside or out, they do deserve the win.
(btw, we NQ'd in utility because as Tito headed for the bar jump on directed jumping a small branch broke off the tree directly overhead, it was really windy and raining hard, and he opted to retrieve it rather than take the jump. He was very proud of himself and his tree branch. )



Stretchdrive said:


> poo on that club


----------



## Stretchdrive

hotel4dogs said:


> (btw, we NQ'd in utility because as Tito headed for the bar jump on directed jumping a small branch broke off the tree directly overhead, it was really windy and raining hard, and he opted to retrieve it rather than take the jump. He was very proud of himself and his tree branch. )


Thanks for a good chuckle!! I hate showing outside, because of being at the mercy of the weather. 99% of my training is outside though!


----------



## hotel4dogs

oh, then you'll enjoy this one....another time we showed in a covered pavillion, on a dirt floor, no walls on the pavillion. There were heavy storms, and the dust was blowing around the ring, and every so often something would blow thru the ring.
On the utility signal exercise, right as I had given the recall signal a piece of trash like a hamburger wrapper or something blew into the ring. On his way back to me Tito made a quick diversion to grab it, then did a lovely front and finish with it in his mouth.
I asked the judge if it was an NQ, she laughed and said no, he recovered nicely without further instructions from me, but that it got marked on his score sheet as "only a golden...."


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## Stretchdrive

Sounds like something my Rivet would do!!


----------



## GoldenSail

K9-Design said:


> Well that's what I just said. If it matters to you, you can ASK the owner how the dog scored or download it's event history and judge for yourself.
> The way we recognize teams that score really well, is a title called OTCH!!!
> Do you want a NOTCH title? Novice Obedience Trial Champion? I mean, I'm not understanding why the OTCH doesn't give fit the bill for what you're asking.
> If your dog is fantastic and scores a 198 consistently but that's not getting you OTCH points, THEN GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. It is not unheard of you know, to travel to shows. If you are sitting home crying because that doesn't let you win in your hometown trial, well boohoo, get in the car and drive where it will!
> Fisher finished his CH in Indiana. Got his first SH leg in Pennsylvania. Got a major in Kentucky. 2nd MH pass in Tennessee. WCX in Oklahoma. All over a day's drive from where I live. The nearby competitions didn't have what I wanted, whether it was the judges, fellow competitors, time table, what have you. If you really want to be competitive it's the nature of the sport that you need to travel.


Actually, I don't have the ring experience to know what requires an OTCH but as per the start of the thread there seem to be many people who think that a 198 is out of the ribbons in their area and get frustrated when they have a nice dog with those scores but can't place. It was a thought that those scores get recognized for those that train that hard but can't get an OTCH (or so they say) with them. I wasn't suggesting anything like a NOTCH, actually something that would be noncompetitive to acknowledge good scores. Sounds like Front & Finish has a title for that...


----------



## AmbikaGR

GoldenSail said:


> Actually, I don't have the ring experience to know what requires an OTCH but as per the start of the thread there seem to be many people who think that a 198 is out of the ribbons in their area and get frustrated when they have a nice dog with those scores but can't place. It was a thought that those scores get recognized for those that train that hard but can't get an OTCH (or so they say) with them. I wasn't suggesting anything like a NOTCH, actually something that would be noncompetitive to acknowledge good scores. Sounds like Front & Finish has a title for that...



Actually there are new AKC titles that fit this bill

-------------------------------------------------------------------

OBEDIENCE MASTER TITLE AND GRAND MASTER TITLE
Section 1. Dogs that May Compete. Obedience Master title and
Obedience Grand Master title points will be recorded for dogs that
have earned the Utility Dog title. When a dog earns an Obedience
Master title, it may continue to compete and earn points until it is
awarded an Obedience Grand Master title.
Section 2. Master Title and Grand Master Title Points. Obedience
Master points will be recorded for those dogs earning a score of 190
or better in Open B or Utility B classes, according to the schedule of
points established by the AKC Board of Directors.
To acquire an Obedience Master title, dogs will be required to earn
a total of 200 points, based on the points awarded for scores of 190 or
better from the Open B or Utility B classes as listed in the below point
schedule.
For a title to be earned 30 percent of the points (60 points) must
come from the Open B class and 30 percent of the points (60 points)
must come from the Utility B class, the remaining 40 percent of the
points (80 points) can come from the Open B or Utility B class, for the
total of 200 points.
When a dog earns a total of 200 points based on the below point
schedule (Section 3), it will be awarded an Obedience Master title.
Obedience Master titles will be awarded for nine levels and upon completion
of the 10th level, a dog will be awarded an Obedience Grand
Master title. Points accumulated in excess of the 200 points required
for each level will be applied towards the next level of award if available.
Only one title for Obedience Grand Master will be awarded.
Upon being awarded an Obedience Master title or the Grand Master
title, dogs will be permitted to display the title of Obedience Master
(OM#) or OGM after their names.


Point Schedule.
Dog’s Score Points Awarded
190 6
190.5 6
191 6
191.5 6
192 9
192.5 9
193 9
193.5 9
194 9
194.5 9
195 12
195.5 12
196 12
196.5 12
197 15
197.5 15
198 15
198.5 15
199 15
199.5 15
200 15
Succession of Obedience Master Titles
OM1 Obedience Master 1
OM2 Obedience Master 2
OM3 Obedience Master 3
OM4 Obedience Master 4
OM5 Obedience Master 5
OM6 Obedience Master 6
OM7 Obedience Master 7
OM8 Obedience Master 8
OM9 Obedience Master 9
OGM Obedience Grand Master


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## GoldenSail

Thanks Hank! I am not well as well versed in rules and titles as I should be. Sounds good to me


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## Loisiana

So here's why I would prefer to show in very large competitive classes than small shows:

Yesterday's Open B scores were 199.5 for first, 198 1/2 run off for second and third, and 198 for 4th. I think pretty typical scores for open B. However, there were only 13 dogs in the class. Which means first place was worth 4 points, second place worth 1 point, and third and fourth worth none. So I'd much rather show in a trial where I know that if I have an exceptional day and place high I will grab a nice amount of points, versus knowing that no matter how well I do, it will be worth very little point-wise.


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## hotel4dogs

Agree, if you're looking for OTCH points. Otherwise, doesn't matter. And in some of the big shows, you're looking at 199.5 being a 3-way run off for first....you know, the shows where there are 40+ OTCH points at stake. WAY out of my league.




Loisiana said:


> So here's why I would prefer to show in very large competitive classes than small shows:
> 
> Yesterday's Open B scores were 199.5 for first, 198 1/2 run off for second and third, and 198 for 4th. I think pretty typical scores for open B. However, there were only 13 dogs in the class. Which means first place was worth 4 points, second place worth 1 point, and third and fourth worth none. So I'd much rather show in a trial where I know that if I have an exceptional day and place high I will grab a nice amount of points, versus knowing that no matter how well I do, it will be worth very little point-wise.


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