# thinking out loud/looking for ideas



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thinking about Tito's test failure today....
Normally he steps on the go-bird, pretty much regardless of what they throw at him (pardon the pun). If for some reason he doesn't get it right away, he will put up an intelligent hunt and *will hunt until he finds it no matter how long it takes. *He doesn't pop, doesn't give up, just keeps hunting and hunting.
But not the memory bird. For some reason, he doesn't have the same work ethic on the memory bird. He seems to want to give up and come back in, or look for help, or something.
So I'm wondering....any ideas what might have caused this attitude difference between the two birds? It started when we concentrated really hard on blinds. 
I feel like if I could figure out what I/we did to cause him to think this way, it would be much easier to fix. But I'm at a loss as to what might have been the cause, so I'll looking for thoughts from you guys!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Maybe he is looking for help or giving up when he doesn't remember it well...and if he isn't confident that he's even in the right general area?

Or another idea...how much do you handle on marks?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I wouldn't worry so much about what caused the problem because the answer is "they all go through it." And besides, you can't go back in time and not do whatever it is. 

Rather I would ask what are YOU doing to ENSURE that he is 100% successful on memory birds?


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

It's the memory bird right? Are you/him swinging to that second bird too fast and he is not getting a good look at it so not marking well?

Boy I'm realizing with my own training here, that a big part of Senior is having the dog gain confidence. I think you have to give them enough experience that they have those "pictures" in their heads so they look out and say "OK, this is a double. I've got it".


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Barb, 
Long difficult singles sometime helps. You need the length to build in enough factors to challenge the dog. Seemingly simple factors can become incredibly difficult when combined together.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Personally I am a big fan of doing hard memory birds as singles first. With a dog with confidence issues even "easy" memory birds can be done as singles first, then ran as a double. I stretch it out temporally by running the hard birds as singles, put the dog up then come back later and run the multiple. Have not had a problem with dogs returning to old falls. IMO it has really helped my guys and is what I rely on most. Also spend lots of time at the line getting him to focus on the gunner before calling for the throw, watching the bird to the ground and then a 3 count before swinging to the next bird, good swinging with the gun and focus skills, go slow.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks for the thoughts.
Lisa, I don't handle on marks (except at a test). Dan says he will stuff the whistle down my throat if he catches me trying to handle on a mark. 
Holly, Dan waits for at least a 5 count (one thousand one....one thousand two...) before the go-bird is launched. Sometimes he has me wait much longer before sending him on a single, so that Tito doesn't know if he's going to go for the bird, or if there's another bird coming. I don't turn him to the go-bird at all, I let the noise of the go-bird catch his attention. He stares at the memory bird until there's a duck call or shot for a different bird.
Swampcollie, that's exactly what my pro is doing with him. He is really challenging Tito with singles, 150 to 200 yards with cover changes and other factors/suctions, and Tito is fine with it as long as it's a single. But put in a memory bird and we start to see the issues.
We don't think it's a marking issue. His marking has been fantastic (well okay, except for the flier yesterday!) and we've been very pleased with it.
It's either a memory issue, which is weird since he used to run lovely multiples (before we concentrated on blinds), or a confusion issue (is this a mark or a blind??), or a lack of confidence. Also regarding memory...we do lots of bird in mouth singles, heel backs, hands over his eyes for a 10 count before sending, heeling him in a circle before sending him, and as long as it's a single he has no problem with it. 
Anney, I go with the lack of confidence issue. We have been trying to work from that perspective in training, but I think we need more of it. 
Of course Dan and I will address this in training this week, but I need to have some thoughts on it before we do. Dan wasn't there, and isn't there when I train with my partners. 
We talked on the phone at length, and he feels it's going to take a combination of two things to fix it. First, more confidence on the memory bird. Second, more pressure if Tito gives up or doesn't put up a good hunt. Dan says Tito is blowing me off, and while we need to build confidence, we also need to teach him that he has to stay with it until he finds the bird, regardless. He says we need to put some pressure on him to get him to understand that. 
For some reason, I must have done something along the way that has convinced him that coming in without the memory bird is okay, and is what I want him to do. Because as I said before, he never, ever comes in without the go-bird no matter how long and hard the hunt, so it's not just an issue of a lack of perseverance.
OH, and he ONLY does it on land. Not on water. He will hunt up that memory bird on water forever, even if the memory water bird is on the shore and he has to hunt the shoreline for a long time.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

oh, one other thing.
I'm a bit annoyed that he failed the test, but that's not the real problem and it's not the real reason I'm so upset. 
The real reason is this seems to be an ongoing problem with him. If it were just a failed test, it would fall under the "stuff happens" category and oh well, they are dogs after all.
But we've been having issues with this for a while now. THAT's why I'm so bothered by it.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> Thinking about Tito's test failure today....
> Normally he steps on the go-bird, pretty much regardless of what they throw at him (pardon the pun). If for some reason he doesn't get it right away, he will put up an intelligent hunt and *will hunt until he finds it no matter how long it takes. *He doesn't pop, doesn't give up, just keeps hunting and hunting.
> But not the memory bird. For some reason, he doesn't have the same work ethic on the memory bird. He seems to want to give up and come back in, or look for help, or something.
> So I'm wondering....any ideas what might have caused this attitude difference between the two birds? It started when we concentrated really hard on blinds.
> I feel like if I could figure out what I/we did to cause him to think this way, it would be much easier to fix. But I'm at a loss as to what might have been the cause, so I'll looking for thoughts from you guys!


Too much handling at an early age? Lack of confidence? In training, handling on marks?

My opinions: I don't like to do handling with young dogs. I would prefer to do confidence drills on singles and doubles. I dwell on marking. I may be the only one in my training group who feels this way but my opinion was formed 35 years ago based upon the opinions of really old timers. On the plus side my dogs have been excellent markers. On the down side, handling isn't developed until the dog is a little older. Or, maybe in your case there is nothing wrong at all. Is it realistic to expect 100% from your dog?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

hmmm.....he doesn't expect 100% perfection from his handler.....
It's just something we need to work through, and I'm trying to figure out the best (and most fair) way to work through it. Then after I have some logical ideas as to exactly what is happening, why it's happening, Dan and I can talk through the best way to fix it. 
It's one thing about only training with someone once a week, I have to explain the issues and problems to him and I want to be clear and concise so that we are addressing the *right* issue. Dan has seen him unable to find the memory bird, but he hasn't seen him try to come in without it as far as I can remember. Those have been very difficult memory marks, and he went back toward an old fall instead. 
Ah well, thinking about how to fix this sure beats thinking about how to fix the economy or the gas prices.


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## KathyG (Nov 21, 2011)

Barb, I mentioned this to you privately but now after reading all the background story, I'll mention it again. I hate internet training advice because there always seems to be misinterpretation, so don't be offended...this is just my observations.

I've only trained with you once, last week. I was working a station when Tito ran and I was surprised at how much verbal praise and encouragement you gave him on the return from the go-bird. He then failed to work out the memory bird. At the time, it really stuck with me because it seemed so inappropriate.

Lots of dogs in senior have a balance issue between marks and blinds. With time and experience that usually goes away. My observation is,and after reading his history, Tito thinks he's done after the go bird because of all the partying. He's not done until he picks up all his marks and any blinds. 

Im not saying I don't praise my dogs, but it's usually a quiet 'good' when they are coming back in heel position before the next send. The party is at the car afterward. Only a junior level dog would get extra encouragement if needed or warranted. Or maybe the master dog after the last bird of a difficult test. Never during the test.

I would teach the memory bird as a single, back off on the party and apply some stimulation if he even thinks of giving up the hunt. 

After a gorilla hunt followed by a handle, why would you be yea hawing the return? more appropriate would be something like " get your hairy butt in here...LOL".

Kathy


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

You have gotten a lot of good advice here. I think what it boils down to is backing up and doing some fundamental work in balance and confidence.

As Kathy mentioned--watch where you are praising--he doesn't sound like a dog who needs a cheerleader, especially not for the part he is already good at.
Continue the diet of challenging singles with multiple factors. Do them as straight up singles at first, and then add in the bird-in-mouth element.
Do memory singles--some of the old time field trial pros used to do this to build memory and confidence on memory birds. Start by throwing a straightforward mark, giving him time to commit that picture, but then put the dog up, run another dog, plant the mark, bring the memory dog out and have him pick up that mark. The mark needs to be obvious at first--like white bumper on short grass with visible gunner. Then gradually add distance, simple factors, and start to eleminate the helping elements like the visible gunner and visibility in the LZ. Then gradually extend the amount of time the dog is expected to remember. It is extreme, but one of those trainers used to trhow a mark for that National calibre dog at the end of a training session and not have the dog pick it up until the next day!! Talk about building memory!! You have to use your cues all the way through this to clearly communicate to the dog that he has it right. If you are not consistent, he will not perform consistently.
Go back to building doubles as if you are teaching it all over again to assess where the gap in his skill is with this concept. Ensure that your cues are consistent and that you are reading his commitment to the mark before sending him on it. Do not run doubles unless you have an experienced gunner out there to help him in the field when help is appropriate--work out a system of signals so the gunners are able to tell what help you want and when. Start with 180 doubles; then do widely separated long go-bird, short-memory sets; then increase the length to that memory bird; then reduce the angle of separation; then introduce conceptual relationships between the marks; etc. Ensure the memory bird is made more memorable in all of these--reserve the visible gunner, shot and duck call for it, and make the go-bird no-fuss.
Find more places to train--he needs to see varied land and water with different factors to gain confidence with those elements and build his "picture inventory" for both marks and blinds.
Consider running only one test a weekend--some dogs are simply not good at back-to-back, particularly if the first one was tough. They can tend to use up all of their focus and concentration on the first day. Is


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks, Kathy, not offended in the least and some great advice here. I do give him a lot of praise, you're right. But when you mentioned it to me privately, I didn't really "get" what you're saying, until you explained it just now. I didn't realize you meant praise in between the birds. It's really an "aha" moment for me, it never occurred to me that he thinks he's done because I am celebrating. 
When he FINALLY got that flier on Sunday, I acted like he had just re-invented sliced bread. You're right, he hunted over the entire tri-county area, and had to be handled to the bird in the end. A "get your hairy butt back out there and do a better job on the next one buddy" would have been more appropriate.
I'm excited. I think you're on to something here. 



KathyG said:


> Barb, I mentioned this to you privately but now after reading all the background story, I'll mention it again. I hate internet training advice because there always seems to be misinterpretation, so don't be offended...this is just my observations.
> 
> I've only trained with you once, last week. I was working a station when Tito ran and I was surprised at how much verbal praise and encouragement you gave him on the return from the go-bird. He then failed to work out the memory bird. At the time, it really stuck with me because it seemed so inappropriate.
> 
> ...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks again Shelly. I really can't thank you enough for the help and advice, you make it clear and concise for me and give me a plan to follow, which I need.

1. He does NOT need a cheerleader. He loves this game. Not sure why I even do it? I'm really excited to see how he responds if I quit praising in between marks. The judge on Sunday commented that you can see how much he loves this, when he was honoring (on leash!) and was sitting there watching the other dog and vibrating with excitement.
2. Absolutely!
3. Just to be sure I have this right....we throw a simple single. I don't send him, I take him back to the truck. If there's another dog there, have him pick it up, otherwise, wait for a few minutes as if another dog had run, then bring him back out and send him for it. Gradually increase the difficulty. I REALLY like this, and I can do this at home. (The little sh*t remembers where the tennis ball was last seen 3 days later....)
4. Our go-bird tends to be more memorable. Need to change that.
5. I know this has been a serious downfall for us. We train in the same few places all the time.
6. There are very, very few double SH tests in this area. Interestingly, when I talked to Dan on Saturday night and told him what a great job Tito had done, and how proud I was, he told me to get Tito and his e-collar out on Sunday morning and run some drills before the Sunday test. He told me it's very, very common for novice dogs to blow you off on the second day of the weekend and knowing Tito, it was pretty likely. He said to let him slide a little on obedience stuff, then nail him suddenly and hard on anything he did that indicated he was getting "self-employed". Did I listen to him? NO. Did I run drills? NO. (I had valid reasons). When I called him Sunday to tell him what had happened, he wasn't in the least bit surprised, he said that knowing Tito, he would have predicted it. 
There is only one more double SH that I know of in the next several months, in mid-May. Entering just one day of it might be prudent. I have to see where he's at by then. Saturday's test was only the 5th test he's ever been entered in, so he really is pretty "green".

Shelly, I really can't thank you enough.




sterregold said:


> You have gotten a lot of good advice here. I think what it boils down to is backing up and doing some fundamental work in balance and confidence.
> As Kathy mentioned--watch where you are praising--he doesn't sound like a dog who needs a cheerleader, especially not for the part he is already good at.
> Continue the diet of challenging singles with multiple factors. Do them as straight up singles at first, and then add in the bird-in-mouth element.
> Do memory singles--some of the old time field trial pros used to do this to build memory and confidence on memory birds. Start by throwing a straightforward mark, giving him time to commit that picture, but then put the dog up, run another dog, plant the mark, bring the memory dog out and have him pick up that mark. The mark needs to be obvious at first--like white bumper on short grass with visible gunner. Then gradually add distance, simple factors, and start to eleminate the helping elements like the visible gunner and visibility in the LZ. Then gradually extend the amount of time the dog is expected to remember. It is extreme, but one of those trainers used to trhow a mark for that National calibre dog at the end of a training session and not have the dog pick it up until the next day!! Talk about building memory!! You have to use your cues all the way through this to clearly communicate to the dog that he has it right. If you are not consistent, he will not perform consistently.
> ...


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

Barb, I've been following this as I find it interesting trying to resolve problems that come up with our dogs. And it sounds like you've been able to determine what may be the issue here referring to the praise portion of your field work. I particularly like it when the solution makes sense to me ....please keep us posted on how this works out for you.

Pete


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## KathyG (Nov 21, 2011)

Hope it helps. And more unsolicited advice.

Most of my training is me and a bag of bumpers. I've had more group training in the last two weeks than I usually get in two months. 

What I do alot are wagon wheels. Sometimes little circles, some rather big ones with maybe some blinds set up between somewhere. Gives you a chance to work on control and line manners. And, can be done in limited space (not an issue for you) and limited time (an issue for everybody). It's something rather than nothing.

You can focus on a quick return and set up, or taking a line, or handling....a very versatile drill. Mix white and orange.

Kathy


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, the praise thing makes total sense to me, too, and I NEVER would have thought of it!




FeatherRiverSam said:


> Barb, I've been following this as I find it interesting trying to resolve problems that come up with our dogs. And it sounds like you've been able to determine what may be the issue here referring to the praise portion of your field work. I particularly like it when the solution makes sense to me ....please keep us posted on how this works out for you.
> 
> Pete


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Consider your advice always solicited. 

We haven't done a wagon wheel in ages. I do need to re-visit it. His lines have deteriorated a bit recently, so it would be a good time to do it. 



KathyG said:


> Hope it helps. And more unsolicited advice.
> 
> Most of my training is me and a bag of bumpers. I've had more group training in the last two weeks than I usually get in two months.
> 
> ...


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Good suggestion, Kathy--wagon wheel is excellent for building that cadence and communication about taking a correct line--plays into memory marks as well as blinds.

The other thing I just thought to add was stand-alones. You can go out throw the mark and then return to the line to release him.

And yes, the memory single drill does involve the process you interpreted. When you get him on line again cue him as if it was a memory bird. "Where's your mark?" Then when he gives his lock-on tell "Good." and send "Tito"


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Shelly, when you do stand alones do you return to the line, or let him come to where you are in the field after he picks it up?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I use them for memory and focus, so I initially put out stickmen/chairs that I throw from, and then I return to the line to release the dog.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

ok, just revisited a quick version of the wagon wheel, working on the line. Had 8 bumpers out, about 20 feet out from the center of the wheel, and he did great. So I did a little quick casting drill, he did great on that. 
Which brings about a question. I was very aware that I praise him on the drills, too. What do you think about that?
Also did a little memory work, first with a white bumper, threw it out about 40 feet away (can't throw any farther), went out in front of the house and tossed some fun bumpers, came back to the "line" and sent him for the white bumper, he had no problem but I think he could see it.
So for the next one, I used an orange bumper instead. Threw it out about 40 feet, then walked to the wild asparagus patch and back, about a 20 minute walk. Returned to the original line, sent him for it. He had an idea where it was, within about 5 feet. Got out there and saw it.
This is going to be a great drill for him. There's a lot I can do with this one without ever leaving the property, so I can do it when I have short chunks of time available.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

okay, thanks!



sterregold said:


> I use them for memory and focus, so I initially put out stickmen/chairs that I throw from, and then I return to the line to release the dog.


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## Tamarackgoldens (Mar 10, 2010)

Hi there. Since I was taking a break from Master and happened to be there and see it, I would agree with all of the above. I am not a pro by any means. Still learning how to play this game, but go home from every test with new ideas and knowledge of what I need to work on, so take it as amateur advice. Difference in training and testing is how soon you handle to the mark. When he returned to the back 40 for the second time it was probably time to blow the whistle and handle to the bird. He had already covered that area. I don't know your dog and his quirks, but they all have them. He appeared to have marked that flyer and may have known where it was, but there were a lot of enticing things out in that field to be investigated. By the time you handled him, he had put a lot of effort in, was tired and not sure he even remembered there was another bird out there. Kathy is 100% right about the praise. You told him what a good boy he was the whole way back from the go bird-and he wasn't. If he gets that for doing a poor job, why should he put himself out for more. Again, every dog is different but I only tell my dog he did a good job when he did a REALLY good job and not until the entire job is done, or he will go into happy mode and not keep his head in the game. And he too loves getting birds, but he still has to earn the praise. It may be different for a dog who doesn't love retrieving and needs more encouragement, but didn't look like that was Tito's problem. He left the line hard and I wondered if he flew right past the bird.
I train with the Miners and they have always taught me the bird should be the reward. He appears eager enough so I bet that would be his reward too. Don't get discouraged though. That was a really early test and there are great training days ahead. He looks like he enjoys himself.
My dog was so rude he failed on the last bird of the last series in the second test. He could have had the decency to go out earlier so we could have headed home at an earlier hour.
It was good to meet you. Sure I will see you at more tests.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I am bad about praising too much too, I have to consciously tell myself to shut up. Great observation from Kathy G.


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## KathyG (Nov 21, 2011)

If he is putting out effort and doing a good job, go ahead a praise. But, like Sue said, too much and it takes their head out of the game. You can't baby talk your dog and then turn around and ask for a 200 yard blind through ugly water. There is a time and a place.

My other retriever loves drill work. If I give "too much" praise, he gets self employed and we loose all benefit of the drill.

Kathy

PS: in case you can't tell, Sue and I use the same trainer.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Tamarackgoldens said:


> ... Difference in training and testing is how soon you handle to the mark. When he returned to the back 40 for the second time it was probably time to blow the whistle and handle to the bird. He had already covered that area. I don't know your dog and his quirks, but they all have them. He appeared to have marked that flyer and may have known where it was, but there were a lot of enticing things out in that field to be investigated. By the time you handled him, he had put a lot of effort in, was tired and not sure he even remembered there was another bird out there...


This is another really good observation that could only be provided by someone who was there. This is a really common mistake among newer handlers--sometimes you have to suck it up and use that handle excpeditiously in the first series, even on the first bird, to have a chance at playing the rest of the day. If the dog can nail the memory bird after needing top be handled on the go-bird it can be a little bit of redemption as well as at least the dog has shown memory. 

It is especially frustrating to watch when it is the last series of the day. We had a handler become a spectator in a SH test I judged; she stood on line while the dog was merrily running about doing its own thing. We had to tell her to put her dog on the bird on the last bird of the day--the memory bird on water. She hadn't handled on a mark, and had gotten through both blinds and just had these marks and an honour left; but once the dog got out there on the memory bird she allowed it to hunt the wrong side of the canoe, get up on the island and run around, and even try to climb into the canoe with the gunner. The dog never got out in the tules in the water on the correct side of the canoe. By the time we had to tell her to put the dog on the bird because her dog was endangering the gunner, it was too late. She could have salvaged a pass if she had simply hit the whistle when the dog hit the shore of the island and turned the wrong way.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

KathyG said:


> If he is putting out effort and doing a good job, go ahead a praise. But, like Sue said, too much and it takes their head out of the game. You can't baby talk your dog and then turn around and ask for a 200 yard blind through ugly water. There is a time and a place.
> 
> My other retriever loves drill work. If I give "too much" praise, he gets self employed and we loose all benefit of the drill.
> 
> ...


I like what Bill Hillman says about this--maintain balance and attitude! Read your dog to be able to assess that they are enthusiastic, but under control. That is the line to walk! My Winter is a big silly dork--and if you give him an inch he will take a mile! My Breeze requires more praise--I need to take more frequent breaks with her in drill work or she can get kind of worn down by it. Same goes for a really challenging mark--there praising her up just seems to boost her confidence and that attitude carries forward intot he next days work. On blinds I don't have to cheerlead for her as much--she likes them and knows when she has done a good job!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

sterregold said:


> My Breeze requires more praise--I need to take more frequent breaks with her in drill work or she can get kind of worn down by it.


My guys are sorta the reverse -- especially with Fisher he likes drills but gets ramped up under the pressure of having to do things very precisely -- I have to keep praise very quiet and low-key during drills, otherwise he loses it and becomes Crazy Dog. Slater can do drills til the cows come home with attitude to spare. However on marks and blinds I do a lot of praising and I think they really respond to it. 
I never feel like my dogs are blowing me off, I never get the impression that they are doing something intentionally wrong to spite me. So if they are having a hard time with something it's because they don't understand, are getting mixed signals, or just plain old can't find it (mark). Thus if they DO come up with it I want to praise a lot, to keep attitude up and let them know I appreciate the effort! But it's a fine line. I've toned back praising on every mark or blind and just do it now for special effort.

I really noticed this time around in SH with Slater -- an experienced handler makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD. I have no doubt that if he were with an inexperienced handler he would not have passed at least two of the tests, maybe three! Two had challenging water blinds that took some real skill to pull off, the other, he did not see the go-bird on the land series and I had to handle almost right out of the gate. I recognized what was going on, an inexperienced handler probably wouldn't have until it was too late.

Once you get to master it's even more important for the handler to be on the ball, but by then you have (hopefully) vastly more experience as a handler.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks SO much for the comments and observations!!! It helps huge amounts.
I don't think he marked the flyer correctly, because he would have picked it up right away. That I do know about him. I, too, think he flew right past it and then wasn't able to recover from the interesting things going on (live birds behind the holding blind, scent of the live birds in a pen on the other side of the tree line). 
This is incredibly helpful to hear your observations. I am excited to start working this through, now that I have some really good ideas what's causing the problem.
Sorry about your dog....what a heartbreak. At least I got home early!





Tamarackgoldens said:


> Hi there. Since I was taking a break from Master and happened to be there and see it, I would agree with all of the above. I am not a pro by any means. Still learning how to play this game, but go home from every test with new ideas and knowledge of what I need to work on, so take it as amateur advice. Difference in training and testing is how soon you handle to the mark. When he returned to the back 40 for the second time it was probably time to blow the whistle and handle to the bird. He had already covered that area. I don't know your dog and his quirks, but they all have them. He appeared to have marked that flyer and may have known where it was, but there were a lot of enticing things out in that field to be investigated. By the time you handled him, he had put a lot of effort in, was tired and not sure he even remembered there was another bird out there. Kathy is 100% right about the praise. You told him what a good boy he was the whole way back from the go bird-and he wasn't. If he gets that for doing a poor job, why should he put himself out for more. Again, every dog is different but I only tell my dog he did a good job when he did a REALLY good job and not until the entire job is done, or he will go into happy mode and not keep his head in the game. And he too loves getting birds, but he still has to earn the praise. It may be different for a dog who doesn't love retrieving and needs more encouragement, but didn't look like that was Tito's problem. He left the line hard and I wondered if he flew right past the bird.
> I train with the Miners and they have always taught me the bird should be the reward. He appears eager enough so I bet that would be his reward too. Don't get discouraged though. That was a really early test and there are great training days ahead. He looks like he enjoys himself.
> My dog was so rude he failed on the last bird of the last series in the second test. He could have had the decency to go out earlier so we could have headed home at an earlier hour.
> It was good to meet you. Sure I will see you at more tests.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

oh I'm sure a lot of it has to do with handler inexperience!! It was my 6th test....the 5th being the day before. And on Saturday the judge said, let the dogs work. Be patient and let them sort it out, give them time and they will usually recover.
So on Sunday, I did. Sue can tell you, he was out there a LONG time. I think some people might have gone for breakfast and come back, and he was still hunting, LOL. I just stood patiently and let him hunt. And hunt. And hunt.
My dog would do much better with a job with a better handler. But he's stuck with me!!!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I don't think dogs are capable of doing things intentionally wrong to spite you. But Tito is absolutely, totally capable of blowing me off, and I've seen him do it any number of times in the field. Not in obedience, agility, or even around the house. But in the field, absolutely. He's gotten a LOT better, but we still have a battle of wills now and then.




K9-Design said:


> I never feel like my dogs are blowing me off, I never get the impression that they are doing something intentionally wrong to spite me.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Also, on my 2nd SH with Fisher we bombed in much the same fashion. Our first SH try the day before he passed. On the 2nd day they had a relatively easy land double, he stomped on the flyer and then was completely lost on the memory bird. I think he went out halfway and started doing donuts. Anyways I called him in. The judges were like -- HANDLE!!! I said no thanks. I was so thrilled he passed the first day I really didn't care and I wanted to hit the road early! LOL


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

one other thing...if anyone is EVER at a test, sees us run, I welcome any and all advice, comments, and especially criticism. I'm so caught up in the moment, later I don't know what happened.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I don't think dogs do things to spite you...but I do think they can 'blow you off' because of their own self interest and they think they can get away with it (i.e. handler won't correct or doesn't correct enough).


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> I don't think dogs do things to spite you...but I do think they can 'blow you off' because of their own self interest and they think they can get away with it *(i.e. handler won't correct or doesn't correct enough)*.


Add "doesn't teach them any differently" to the list. 
OK off to train


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

That makes me feel better. Fisher is my inspiration, always has been.




K9-Design said:


> Also, on my 2nd SH with Fisher we bombed in much the same fashion. Our first SH try the day before he passed. On the 2nd day they had a relatively easy land double, he stomped on the flyer and then was completely lost on the memory bird. I think he went out halfway and started doing donuts. Anyways I called him in. The judges were like -- HANDLE!!! I said no thanks. I was so thrilled he passed the first day I really didn't care and I wanted to hit the road early! LOL


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## Golden Gibby (Jan 8, 2011)

I just wanted to say congratulations on your run Saturday, it was a pleasure to watch Tito run. 
I've been reading this thread and there is a lot of experience and good advice.
Just remember we all have good and bad days, and even Goldens sometimes have off days.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

One more thing to consider with Senior dogs when there are flyers involved. (especially on a double header) Keep an eye on your dog when you're coming to the line. By the second day they're looking for and locking onto the flyer station. Their attention is all on that big fresh flyer that is "just for him". Then when the test starts and the memory bird goes off, the dog is startled and caught flat footed going "Huh! What! Where is it?" And as they catch up to the memory bird action, the flyer goes off and they're totally flustered. It all comes down to the handler not getting the dog "convinced" and settled in to watch for the memory bird prior to signaling to start the test. 

Remember that in the process of learning blind retrieves it is normal for a dogs' marking to go to hell until it's very confident on blinds. Then the marking starts to come back to normal.


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## luvgld7 (Jan 23, 2008)

I can relate to the "too much cheerleading". 

When I was first training with Scout for Junior, Mercedes Hitchcock invited me to her place to train. Some of you on this board know her (she was profiled in the last Field issue of GR News). We were working land and I sent Scout for his mark and he nailed it and on the way back I was giving him lots of "Yea! Good Boy" yells and encouragement. He heeled nicely to my side and Mercedes turned to me and said "Stop it! You don't need to do all that. He's doing what you've asked him to do, the retrieve is his reward. You can quietly tell him "good boy" on a difficult mark, but that's it".

I remember her advice all these years later and am thankful she was so blunt about it then.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Praise is great when the work is completed. To do otherwise signals the end of the task prematurely. If you train positively a conditioned a bridge word or phrase (keep going) can be useful but that is certainly not cheerleading.


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## Tamarackgoldens (Mar 10, 2010)

I guess the most important thing to take away from this is, you have to know your own dog and be able to read him as far as how much praise, encouragement, correction, etc are appropriate for your dog and when to use both. You did a really good job keeping calm on the line, and it wasn't as long as you probably felt standing there. Looks like you both had fun and I'm sure you grew as a handler. Again, I am not an expert, just trying to keep improving my skills and work as a team, but it sure is addictive isn't it!!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> I don't think dogs are capable of doing things intentionally wrong to spite you. But Tito is absolutely, totally capable of blowing me off, and I've seen him do it any number of times in the field. Not in obedience, agility, or even around the house. But in the field, absolutely. He's gotten a LOT better, but we still have a battle of wills now and then.


I believe that my dog does exactly what I have taught her to do. This includes both her desired behaviors and her undesired behaviors. I truly believe that the undesirable behaviors arise because I made an error in teaching the initial behavior or I made an error in not correcting a growing bad behavior. Oh, and I have made plenty of errors.

Just my opinion.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks so much everyone for your insights and advice in this thread. It has helped me tremendously to identify exactly some of the issues that are causing him to do the things he does, and also has given me a lot of great ideas as to how to correct it. I personally think this is the best thread ever 
Ah Sue, I think it was a good half hour or more I was standing there on the line while he was trotting around looking for the flyer


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Thanks so much everyone for your insights and advice in this thread. It has helped me tremendously to identify exactly some of the issues that are causing him to do the things he does, and also has given me a lot of great ideas as to how to correct it. I personally think this is the best thread ever
> Ah Sue, I think it was a good half hour or more I was standing there on the line while he was trotting around looking for the flyer


Barb, I thought this was a great thread also. Alot of good take away information, especially for those of us who are inexperienced handlers with dogs who are moving up to Senior.


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