# Dog Food Advisor site?



## Megora

I agree, and I use it. 

The recommendations - I don't pay as much attention to, and I think the guy made a point of telling people that every dog is different. While one kind of food is pushed as excellent, that doesn't exactly mean it is excellent for your dog.

What I like is the fact that he explains the bad and good ingredients in the food. This goes a little deeper than making sure the kibble doesn't have corn products in it.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

That site is not a bad place to begin to learn what foods are out there... but just remember he has no training in canine nutrition. As I remember, he's a dentist. A site that I like better is The Dog Food Project - How does your Dog Food Brand compare? You can learn how to read the labels, nutritional analysis, etc. She also keeps the site pretty updated on recalls.


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## GoldensGirl

*Another dog food comparison site*

Thanks for the comments! Here's another site that was just recommended to me offline:

Dog Food Analysis - Reviews of kibble

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know! 

Lucy


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Now THAT one I wouldn't put much credence in. They are totally biased and recommend highly only grain frees. They are not canine nutritionists or nutrition consultants.... just alot of their opinions. That being said, they do highlight many very good foods ( and ones I've used) but their criteria is skewed IMO.


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## jackie_hubert

Phew, our food passes with flying colours on all those websites. I hadn't heard of the one posted by Penny and Maggie's mom, but it looks great. I find that at the end of the day many are saying very similar things... though some tend to oversimplify and see it in too black and white.


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## Abby

I use it, good, clear anyalsis of a wide range of foods.


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## Pointgold

For nearly 20 years, I, as well as the handlers of the top dogs in nearly all venues, have fed a food that most of the sites consider to be crap. My dogs are extremely healthy, have gorgeous coats, good vitality and stamina, and excellent longevity. 
I'll keep feeding crap ("one star", or no stars, or however else they rate them) and recommend it to those who nearly always look for another food to feed eventually when their dogs start doing poorly on foods that are rated an entire galaxy of stars.


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## hotel4dogs

What she said goes here, too. My poor 13-1/2 and 12-1/2 year old goldens have been eating crap, too, as have a lot of the really old dogs I board here.
Everyone has a personal opinion on how to feed their dogs, which is fine. The marketing people love it. But my personal opinion (and I stress, this is OPINION) is that I will continue to feed a food that's been proven over many many generations of dogs rather than one that's relatively new, no matter what their claims might be. The newer food(s) might be the best thing since sliced bread, but my dogs are not laboratory test animals and I'll wait until it's been proven on other people's dogs for many years.




Pointgold said:


> For nearly 20 years, I, as well as the handlers of the top dogs in nearly all venues, have fed a food that most of the sites consider to be crap. My dogs are extremely healthy, have gorgeous coats, good vitality and stamina, and excellent longevity.
> I'll keep feeding crap ("one star", or no stars, or however else they rate them) and recommend it to those who nearly always look for another food to feed eventually when their dogs start doing poorly on foods that are rated an entire galaxy of stars.


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## Megora

Pointgold said:


> For nearly 20 years, I, as well as the handlers of the top dogs in nearly all venues, have fed a food that most of the sites consider to be crap. My dogs are extremely healthy, have gorgeous coats, good vitality and stamina, and excellent longevity.
> I'll keep feeding crap ("one star", or no stars, or however else they rate them) and recommend it to those who nearly always look for another food to feed eventually when their dogs start doing poorly on foods that are rated an entire galaxy of stars.


If you feed the brand I'm thinking of, I feed our cat the same thing. He's healthier than anyone else's cat. 

My doglet is mainly fed the same brand I've been feeding my guys for the past 10-15 years without any problem. I believe it's been downgraded between 2 and 3 stars because it contains synthetic k (which some people think causes cancer_ in some dogs,_ although there have not been any official studies for good or bad, the major mfgs just put it in the kibble).


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## tippykayak

I'm on that curmudgeonly bandwagon of folks who believe more in results than in theories about corn or the digestive tracts of wild wolves. I feed Eukanuba PP to my happy, healthy, shiny, lean, bright-eyed, too-much-energy-sometimes guys and when I start to feel guilty that I'm not paying even more (Euk is plenty expensive), I look at the dogs and I ask myself what I think a different food might improve...and I can't think of anything, so I don't try to fix what ain't broken.

When the dogs get the zoomies after a 2,000 foot, 4 mile mountain ascent, I think it's a good indicator that the food is working pretty well.


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## tippykayak

Megora said:


> If you feed the brand I'm thinking of, I feed our cat the same thing. He's healthier than anyone else's cat.
> 
> My doglet is mainly fed the same brand I've been feeding my guys for the past 10-15 years without any problem. I believe it's been downgraded between 2 and 3 stars because it contains synthetic k (which some people think causes cancer_ in some dogs,_ although there have not been any official studies for good or bad, the major mfgs just put it in the kibble).


Yeah - menadione has never once been shown to cause cancer in any way. It can cause toxic effects in overdoses (which is why it's not used in human supplements, which are easy to overdose on), but it's been thoroughly studied as safe as a low dose supplement in animal feed.


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## Megora

tippykayak said:


> Yeah - menadione has never once been shown to cause cancer in any way. It can cause toxic effects in overdoses (which is why it's not used in human supplements, which are easy to overdose on), but it's been thoroughly studied as safe as a low dose supplement in animal feed.


It _is_ something that concerns me as both my goldens did die of the same exact cancer... <- I'm hoping that the fact they both lived 13 years implies it was old age dysfunction of his cells (or something to that effect). Had both dogs died early from the same cancer, I would be a lot more neurotic about the food and water I gave them.


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## Happy Dog Owner

*Dog Food Advisor is not qualified*

The guy the runs the DOG FOOD ADVISOR is not qualified to give advice. The site is influenced by the manufactures of the food he sells. He also steals information from other sites and posts it on his, appearing to have researched the topic.  There are other forums that have more reliable information.


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## WasChampionFan

Pointgold said:


> For nearly 20 years, I, as well as the handlers of the top dogs in nearly all venues, have fed a food that most of the sites consider to be crap. My dogs are extremely healthy, have gorgeous coats, good vitality and stamina, and excellent longevity.
> I'll keep feeding crap ("one star", or no stars, or however else they rate them) and recommend it to those who nearly always look for another food to feed eventually when their dogs start doing poorly on foods that are rated an entire galaxy of stars.


I brought this up on another thread, that professional dog people feed foods used or made by professionals. They laughed at me. It just amazes me how stupid people can be. 

Most of these folks switch every bag. So how can these glamour foods be any good?

Pointgold, would you ever in your life pay over $2.50lb for a 24/14 chicken & rice food?


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## Swampcollie

WasChampionFan said:


> I brought this up on another thread, that professional dog people feed foods used or made by professionals. They laughed at me. It just amazes me how stupid people can be.
> 
> Most of these folks switch every bag. So how can these glamour foods be any good?
> 
> Pointgold, would you ever in your life pay over $2.50lb for a 24/14 chicken & rice food?


 
You just have to shake your head sometimes and wonder. How can people be so swayed by pretty advertising? 

People that have been breeding, raising and training dogs for decades don't know anything about canine nutrition, but somebody with their first or second dog that looks at few highly biased web sites is an authority. :no: Then a little later they're wondering about one health issue after another. You don't suppose it might be due to the suspect fad diets they've been feeding? Nah, it couldn't be that, the rating website said it was a great food.


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## Elisabeth Kazup

I have to chuckle at a particular dog food commercial (sorry don't know which brand) but the lady is in a gorgeous kitchen at a HUGE island with granite counter top...everybody's dream kitchen. 

On the counter are bowls and platters of the most beautiful, delicious looking fruits and vegetables, meats and grains. The camera pans over the array and I believe she is cutting up carrots with a lovely smile on her face, a very sweet dog waits patiently beside her.

It's obvious that the visuals are meant to stimulate HUMAN ideas of what makes a food good and palateable. 

BUT, the dog food is probably very tasty. All dogs would probably eat it. And probably most dogs would do very well on it. All dogs are different. If a particular food makes you and your dog happy, then go for it!

Penny's food got 5 stars...fwtw!


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## artbuc

WasChampionFan said:


> I brought this up on another thread, that professional dog people feed foods used or made by professionals. They laughed at me. It just amazes me how stupid people can be.
> 
> Most of these folks switch every bag. So how can these glamour foods be any good?
> 
> Pointgold, would you ever in your life pay over $2.50lb for a 24/14 chicken & rice food?


I find these discussions absolutely fascinating. On one hand, we praise food developed by renowned canine nutritionists who shun vegetable protein, animal digest and poultry by-product. Then we praise food which uses corn as its top protein source and includes animal digest and poultry by-products. Apparently these two foods are both extremely good because they are widely used by professional breeders and handlers. Makes me think it doesn't make much difference what you feed your dog as long as they do "well" on it.


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## Rob's GRs

artbuc said:


> Makes me think it doesn't make much difference what you feed your dog as long as they do "well" on it.


To me, that is it in a nutshell.


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## Elisabeth Kazup

Probably all the 'experts' agree with this! I mean the big wigs at the dog food companies, those 'experts'. 



artbuc said:


> I find these discussions absolutely fascinating. On one hand, we praise food developed by renowned canine nutritionists who shun vegetable protein, animal digest and poultry by-product. Then we praise food which uses corn as its top protein source and includes animal digest and poultry by-products. Apparently these two foods are both extremely good because they are widely used by professional breeders and handlers. Makes me think it doesn't make much difference what you feed your dog as long as they do "well" on it.


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## artbuc

Rob's GRs said:


> To me, that is it in a nutshell.


My vet is a huge Iams/Euk fan. He says ground corn is a highly digestible and high quality protein source for our furry friends. Based on his advice, I fed Euk for decades. I only got into the dog food search when I got my rescue 3 years ago. Today I started feeding some chicken based food to determine if he really is allergic to it. I am hoping to discover that all of his problems were unrelated to his diet. If he does ok I may try some other options discussed in this thread.


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## MikaTallulah

Are there really any reputable pet food review sites? Petsumer reports seems pretty good and the woman how runs it seems to not follow what the pet food companies what her to say. She has also authored pet food books.


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## WasChampionFan

artbuc said:


> My vet is a huge Iams/Euk fan. He says ground corn is a highly digestible and high quality protein source for our furry friends. Based on his advice, I fed Euk for decades. I only got into the dog food search when I got my rescue 3 years ago. Today I started feeding some chicken based food to determine if he really is allergic to it. I am hoping to discover that all of his problems were unrelated to his diet. If he does ok I may try some other options discussed in this thread.


Corn is highly digestible so long as it is gelatinized, like any other starch. What sets certain foods apart is the level of "starch conversion" or "cook ratio". A mass produced food will rarely be above 80%, closer to 70%. The ones I use are 90% or better. The best Euks are the two Premium Performance formulas.

Corn should not be used as a protein source, although there are some amino acids in corn that are extremely valuable. 

Just as a guide, corn cannot be a major part of any decent quality food because it only has 6% - 8% total protein. So if you use a food with say 25% protein you can rest assure that the vast majority of protein is from meat, even if corn is the second ingredient.

Corn is the only grain with Amylase, which is an enzyme that breaks down starches.


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## Pointgold

WasChampionFan said:


> I brought this up on another thread, that professional dog people feed foods used or made by professionals. They laughed at me. It just amazes me how stupid people can be.
> 
> Most of these folks switch every bag. So how can these glamour foods be any good?
> 
> Pointgold, would you ever in your life pay over $2.50lb for a 24/14 chicken & rice food?


 
When all of these dogs (and SO many more top dogs in their respective venues) are fed ProPlan, all I can say is I will stick with that crappy ol' one star rated food, thanks....


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## A1Malinois

Thats really odd because the last time I checked I swore when I fed my dog a carrot, corn, celery, apple, potato etc it came out the other end exactly what it looked like going in...

That is not what I call digestible. When you have to alter it so the dog can at least get some nutrients from it (such as pureeing the veggies) its not natural. 

But thats just my opinion


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## Pointgold

Lincoln_16 said:


> Thats really odd because the last time I checked I swore when I fed my dog a carrot, corn, celery, apple, potato etc it came out the other end exactly what it looked like going in...
> 
> That is not what I call digestible. When you have to alter it so the dog can at least get some nutrients from it (such as pureeing the veggies) its not natural.
> 
> But thats just my opinion


 
Pureeing a vegetable changes it to not being natural? 
(That is gonna upset a lotta moms who are making their own baby food. And the raw feeders I know who grind up their veggies, and bones, and meats to make patties.)


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## Megora

Pointgold said:


> When all of these dogs (and SO many more top dogs in their respective venues) are fed ProPlan, all I can say is I will stick with that crappy ol' one star rated food, thanks....


You mean those 10 million baths a week they get had nothing to do with it?  

I know a lot of people who just feed their dogs ProPlan. Their dogs don't have the full coated shine that those show dogs have.... so it's not always about the food.


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## A1Malinois

Im the wild wolves do not puree their berries they happen to eat when food is thin. 

Humans have flat molars in the back designed to grind and break down cell walls in veggies/fruits. We also start digestion in our mouths...dogs however do not have flat molars so all they can do is shear the carrot and swallow. 

I have yet to see a pack of wolves raid a corn field or earth up a bunch of carrots or potatos to eat. The day I see this happen is the day I throw my towel in and call it quits.


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## MikaTallulah

Megora said:


> You mean those 10 million baths a week they get had nothing to do with it?
> 
> I know a lot of people who just feed their dogs ProPlan. Their dogs don't have the full coated shine that those show dogs have.... so it's not always about the food.


My Goldens have always done great on Proplan. Beautiful shiny coats and great muscle tone. 

Feed what works for you and your dogs. Proplan does not work for me anymore because I don't agree with Purina's business practices so it does not work for my dogs.


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## MikaTallulah

Lincoln_16 said:


> Im the wild wolves do not puree their berries they happen to eat when food is thin.
> 
> Humans have flat molars in the back designed to grind and break down cell walls in veggies/fruits. We also start digestion in our mouths...dogs however do not have flat molars so all they can do is shear the carrot and swallow.
> 
> I have yet to see a pack of wolves raid a corn field or earth up a bunch of carrots or potatos to eat. The day I see this happen is the day I throw my towel in and call it quits.


In the wild wolves due every part of there kills including the stomach and intestines that have fruit, veggies, and grain in them.

I late Zoey would take a sweet potato to red meat anyway of the week. Even as a puppy. She was weird but had to love her anyway. Right?


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## Pointgold

Megora said:


> You mean those 10 million baths a week they get had nothing to do with it?
> 
> I know a lot of people who just feed their dogs ProPlan. Their dogs don't have the full coated shine that those show dogs have.... so it's not always about the food.


Of course it isn't. Coat is genetic. No food or 10 million baths a week are going to make a dog have more coat than it is genetically programmed to have. But, CLEAN coat and skin is going to be much healthier, and frequent bathing does promote coat growth (again, as much as an individual dog is genetically capable of growing) and clean, healthy skin and coat is going to be shinier than that of a dog who is bathed every 6 months, or whose owner considers a swim in the lake a bath. And those top dogs need more than just good coat. They need to have good muscle tone, and stamina, and excellent overall general health. If the food they were fed was crap, as being rated "one star" suggests that ProPlan is, then they would not have any of it. I've fed it for years, and have all of that, and healthy longevity. When I did NOT feed Pro Plan, and in fact switched to one of the food given a Milky Way of stars, it all went south for me, and once I switched back (and the dogs ultimately regained what they'd lost...) I vowed I'd never do it again.

Hey, I don't care if you feed your dog road gravel if that is what he _thrives _on. But please, don't tell me that what I feed my dogs is "crap".


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## Thalie

MikaTallulah said:


> In the wild wolves due every part of there kills including the stomach and intestines that have fruit, veggies, and grain in them.


They do for small prey but not large ones according to David Mech (Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation, 2003).
"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site." (pg.123)
"To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system." (pg.124)
From : Myths About Raw: Do wolves eat stomach contents of prey?

The one site I find myself going back to about dog food and ingredients is The Dog Food Project - How does your Dog Food Brand compare?)


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## MikaTallulah

Thalie said:


> They do for small prey but not large ones according to David Mech (Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation, 2003).
> "Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site." (pg.123)
> "To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system." (pg.124)
> From : Myths About Raw: Do wolves eat stomach contents of prey?
> 
> 
> 
> The one site I find myself going back to about dog food and ingredients is The Dog Food Project - How does your Dog Food Brand compare?)


 You get my jest though- I'm sure.

Unfortunately, some of the material on that site is from the early 2000's & may be out of date.


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## Pointgold

Lincoln_16 said:


> Im the wild wolves do not puree their berries they happen to eat when food is thin.
> 
> Humans have flat molars in the back designed to grind and break down cell walls in veggies/fruits. We also start digestion in our mouths...dogs however do not have flat molars so all they can do is shear the carrot and swallow.
> 
> I have yet to see a pack of wolves raid a corn field or earth up a bunch of carrots or potatos to eat. The day I see this happen is the day I throw my towel in and call it quits.


 
Dogs.
Wolves. 
They are _not _identical. Similar. But not identical. 
Just sayin', as the saying goes.


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## WasChampionFan

The whole wolf romance is simply puzzling to me.

A dog on a decent dry food will eat better than any wolf I have ever seen.

It is foolish to assume that a wild animal eating once or twice a week is better nourished than a dog eating a balanced high quality food everyday.

Your dog has no idea if the amino acids in its stomach came from a dry food or a live kill.

It is just foolishness propagated by a few pet food companies.

I like giving fresh food, but the thought wolves receive better nutrition than a dog on Pro Plan is a joke.


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## A1Malinois

The reason why wolves int he wild dont thrive is because they dont get the care our domesticated dogs get. They dont have vet care, dewormer, vaccines (for those who want to believe they are beneficial), flea and tick, they have hunters to worry about. Thats why wolves do not last long in the wild....


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## MikaTallulah

Lincoln_16 said:


> The reason why wolves int he wild dont thrive is because they dont get the care our domesticated dogs get. They dont have vet care, dewormer, vaccines (for those who want to believe they are beneficial), flea and tick, they have hunters to worry about. Thats why wolves do not last long in the wild....


I wonder how long wolves in Zoos live overall with optional care and nutrition? 
:


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## A1Malinois

MikaTallulah said:


> I wonder how long wolves in Zoos live overall with optional care and nutrition?
> :


The wolves in the one reserve near me are fed a strict raw diet with no veggies. Their current male is 16 years old.


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## oakleysmommy

Years back when i was a child we fed whatever supermarket brand we found the soft spaghetti looking kind of dog food in packets..lol..i definately dont remember my mom saying or anyone saying dogs are like wolves so should be fed like wolves. i know research and years have proven otherwise. But our dogs are not wolves?? They do not live in the wild they live in our homes. They have survived for years long healthy lives on kibble. When did all this raw feeding come about? am i missing something here? Many people feed raw i get it, but it just doesnt seem "normal" to me? Just my way of thinking. Raw meat is raw meat lets leave that to the wolves the ones who live in the woods. just my opinion. i would rather top their food with home cooked meats. one of my dogs got a piece of raw chicken breast last week he had no idea what to do with it, i think he thought it was a toy? )


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## oakleysmommy

Pointgold said:


> When all of these dogs (and SO many more top dogs in their respective venues) are fed ProPlan, all I can say is I will stick with that crappy ol' one star rated food, thanks....


UMMMM i would say the ol' one star is working just fine and besides isnt the person who started pet food advisor a dentist or something?? Just saying.


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## Wagners Mom2

I'm really glad to see this thread. I admit, I got wrapped up in the "stars" and what I was feeding my dogs. In fact, I'd been wrapped up in the "better" mentality for many years and you know, I just wasn't getting the results my dogs needed. And I felt like I was just completely stressing myself out over trying to find good food for them that worked. 

After many failed attempts at the 4 star foods and some 5 stars, I have just recently gone back to Eukanuba and am VERY Pleased with the results. 

So while I do believe there are some decent foods in the 4-5 star range, they just do not work for my dogs. And I agree with feeding what works for the dogs no matter what it's rated and no matter who says what against whatever it is that you find works. 

I can't tell you how relieved I have felt in the past couple of weeks. 

Oh...and one more thing...rotating. I thought that was a great idea as well, until my dogs had issues and it was very difficult to figure out "why". I am sticking with one brand and will rotate toppers for variety. And pray things stay well because I really don't like dog food hunting.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Kibble is actually a relatively new way of feeding...... becoming popular after WWII. Before that dogs were fed scraps and left overs. Raw is certainly very normal.

I agree with Laura, feed whatever your dog does well on and you feel comfortable with.


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## GoldenCamper

You know Laura, I may not be your biggest fan but you certainly have gained my respect over the years. Kudos to you for posting your thoughts. I do not have the articulateness nor the time to do the same. I often wonder why people with vast experience such as yourself even bother. I try here and there, but only if people will listen. Otherwise I am popping my high blood pressure pills, sigh. :wavey:

Having had dogs for 20 years and what I have went through is worth something. It is called experience. Thanks for your posts, I usually don't bother trying. Seems whatever one might say, another has an axe to grind. Time for me to go for a walk, get off the computer, and have fun with my dog. A very happy healthy dog.

I happen to feed Fiona glowing nuclear waste Elk kibble nuggets from Chernobyl, she loves it and will live for 25 years or so.

OK, I feed Fromm, she thrives on it. Doesn't make it the best food around for every dog.

I wish everyone peace discussing options on feeding their dog. It can make your head explode. Good luck to all.

As an aside, I often wonder something. Our dogs have such short lifespans. What if they had nothing to eat but rocks, sticks, socks, butterflies and poop. Would they still live a long life? Probably.


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## MikaTallulah

oakleysmommy said:


> UMMMM i would say the ol' one star is working just fine and besides isnt the person who started pet food advisor a dentist or something?? Just saying.


1 star for teeth I guess :doh:


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## WasChampionFan

oakleysmommy said:


> UMMMM i would say the ol' one star is working just fine and besides isnt the person who started pet food advisor a dentist or something?? Just saying.


Yes he is but he is an "expert label reader". :uhoh:

He actually put that on the website.

I love the grain allergy myth the best. That one is classic internet garbage. Beet pulp is my second favorite internet myth. K3 is my third.


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## 2Retrievers222

Kibble has only been around 100yrs. Dogs have been in Canada 4000+yrs.(Canadian Eskimo Dog ) Fed Raw, and still fed Raw to this day.




oakleysmommy said:


> Years back when i was a child we fed whatever supermarket brand we found the soft spaghetti looking kind of dog food in packets..lol..i definately dont remember my mom saying or anyone saying dogs are like wolves so should be fed like wolves. i know research and years have proven otherwise. But our dogs are not wolves?? They do not live in the wild they live in our homes. They have survived for years long healthy lives on kibble. When did all this raw feeding come about? am i missing something here? Many people feed raw i get it, but it just doesnt seem "normal" to me? Just my way of thinking. Raw meat is raw meat lets leave that to the wolves the ones who live in the woods. just my opinion. i would rather top their food with home cooked meats. one of my dogs got a piece of raw chicken breast last week he had no idea what to do with it, i think he thought it was a toy? )


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## Pointgold

Wagners Mom said:


> I'm really glad to see this thread. I admit, I got wrapped up in the "stars" and what I was feeding my dogs. In fact, I'd been wrapped up in the "better" mentality for many years and you know, I just wasn't getting the results my dogs needed. And I felt like I was just completely stressing myself out over trying to find good food for them that worked.
> 
> After many failed attempts at the 4 star foods and some 5 stars, I have just recently gone back to Eukanuba and am VERY Pleased with the results.
> 
> So while I do believe there are some decent foods in the 4-5 star range, they just do not work for my dogs. And I agree with feeding what works for the dogs no matter what it's rated and no matter who says what against whatever it is that you find works.
> 
> I can't tell you how relieved I have felt in the past couple of weeks.
> 
> Oh...and one more thing...rotating. I thought that was a great idea as well, until my dogs had issues and it was very difficult to figure out "why". I am sticking with one brand and will rotate toppers for variety. And pray things stay well because I really don't like dog food hunting.


THANK you!
The whole "rotating" thing I just do not understand. So many dogs aren't on a food long enough to either know the benefits or see the problems.


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## WasChampionFan

People that spend all kinds of money should go to a NSTRA event and watch a dog run ahead of a horse for hours on end on a belly full of SportMix, $.50 lb.

They might learn something.


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## tippykayak

Lincoln_16 said:


> Thats really odd because the last time I checked I swore when I fed my dog a carrot, corn, celery, apple, potato etc it came out the other end exactly what it looked like going in...
> 
> That is not what I call digestible. When you have to alter it so the dog can at least get some nutrients from it (such as pureeing the veggies) its not natural.
> 
> But thats just my opinion


I think something is wrong with your dog. When I feed this kind of stuff to my dogs, it comes out as poop, with the exception of corn hulls (pericarp), which stay largely intact, though the rest of the corn gets digested.


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## WasChampionFan

Pointgold said:


> THANK you!
> The whole "rotating" thing I just do not understand. So many dogs aren't on a food long enough to either know the benefits or see the problems.


It is inexperience. People that do this don't understand what allergies are, how rare they are and what the immune system does. If they did they would feed one protein to be safe. All they do is expose a potentially predisposed dog to even more trouble.


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## Wagners Mom2

WasChampionFan said:


> It is inexperience. People that do this don't understand what allergies are, how rare they are and what the immune system does. If they did they would feed one protein to be safe. All they do is expose a potentially predisposed dog to even more trouble.


But then you have the opinions out there that if you feed one protein, dogs can develop allergies against that protein (or grain or whatever in that ONE food). :doh:

So I just decided I'll deal with a chicken allergy if/when it arises.


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## WasChampionFan

Wagners Mom said:


> But then you have the opinions out there that if you feed one protein, dogs can develop allergies against that protein (or grain or whatever in that ONE food). :doh:
> 
> So I just decided I'll deal with a chicken allergy if/when it arises.


You did the right thing. People that have that opinion assume all dogs can develop allergies and that is simply not true. Dog food allergies are maximum 10% of all allergies, the rest environmental. A dog in that 10% also has other immune related issues as well, so it is a genetic issue.

It is best to stick to one protein and switch if you really have to. That way the dog has zero chance of having an antibody for that protein. Why would anyone want to waste a good bullet.

I have heard people talk about feeding one food in the morning and a different food at night.


----------



## MikaTallulah

WasChampionFan said:


> You did the right thing. People that have that opinion assume all dogs can develop allergies and that is simply not true. Dog food allergies are maximum 10% of all allergies, the rest environmental. A dog in that 10% also has other immune related issues as well, so it is a genetic issue.
> 
> It is best to stick to one protein and switch if you really have to. That way the dog has zero chance of having an antibody for that protein. Why would anyone want to waste a good bullet.
> 
> I have heard people talk about feeding one food in the morning and a different food at night.


How or where do you get all your facts from? Are you some sort of dog food genius? Just wondering : 

You seem to only post about dog food and little else. No introduction about yourself or your dogs? I truly wonder why? 

Why the cloak and daggers secret society approach? Just wondering


----------



## tippykayak

While dogs are typically counted in the same species grouping as gray wolves, they're very, very different in morphology, particularly in digestion. Wolves were probably domesticated when they learned to follow nomadic humans. The wolves probably ate human leavings and evolved to thrive on that diet both before and during their domestication.

For at least ten thousand years, the dogs that thrived on human scraps have reproduced better than dogs who did less well on those scraps. The modern day dog is not identical to the modern day wolf in digestive abilities.

Even most raw diets don't mimic the way real wolves eat in the wild. There are all kinds of supplemental materials people use, and many diets include fresh vegetables. They don't just throw their dogs a chicken carcass or a side of beef and hope for the best, even though that's precisely what a wolf would get.

So it's no surprise that dogs don't thrive on exactly the same diet that would satisfy a wolf, and it's certainly not safe to assume that an ideal dog's diet is one that mimics a wild wolf's diet.


----------



## tippykayak

It's one thing to ask a person for citations. I think it's important to see claims backed up by hard evidence. It's quote another thing to insinuate a poster has ulterior motives. Either a person's claims are accurate or they're inaccurate. That's what discussion should be about. not unfounded speculations designed to undermine somebody's credibility.


----------



## Pointgold

MikaTallulah said:


> How or where do you get all your facts from? Are you some sort of dog food genius? Just wondering :
> 
> You seem to only post about dog food and little else. No introduction about yourself or your dogs? I truly wonder why?
> 
> Why the cloak and daggers secret society approach? Just wondering


 
Well, I'm no kinda genius - dog food or otherwise - and I don't even play one on tv. And, I kinda don't see any cloak and daggers secret society approach... course, being blond I coulda easily missed it. (Darn - sounds pretty exciting, ackshooally....)

For me I just take the simplest route possible, and that is to stick with what works and has worked for the long haul. (And admittedly started using what I've been using because I figgered that if it was good enough for the big winners, whose dogs always looked phenomenal, it was good enough for me. )


----------



## MikaTallulah

Pointgold said:


> Well, I'm no kinda genius - dog food or otherwise - and I don't even play one on tv. And, I kinda don't see any cloak and daggers secret society approach... course, being blond I coulda easily missed it. (Darn - sounds pretty exciting, ackshooally....)
> 
> For me I just take the simplest route possible, and that is to stick with what works and has worked for the long haul. (And admittedly started using what I've been using because I figgered that if it was good enough for the big winners, whose dogs always looked phenomenal, it was good enough for me. )


Pointgold I was directing my questioning towards WasChampionFan. Thanks though.


----------



## A1Malinois

tippykayak said:


> I think something is wrong with your dog. When I feed this kind of stuff to my dogs, it comes out as poop, with the exception of corn hulls (pericarp), which stay largely intact, though the rest of the corn gets digested.


How is something wrong with my dog? I know several dogs who eat carrots, apples, celery, corn etc and when they poop you can clearly see what they ate come out in chunks. Just the other day I fed Lincoln and Ruby some of my carrot. Sure enough the next day in their poop was lots of orange chunks...

I think its odd that in every post someone recommends you feed Dr Tims or Annamaet. Makes me think they are working for them but dont want to openly admit that here


----------



## Shalva

My issue with the site is that they review prescription diets under the same guidelines and parameters that they review other diets...often with scathing results... they honestly shouldn't be including prescription diets at all... I sent an email to them ages ago about it and at least now they have a disclaimer in the section on RX diets but still.... you can't refer to a diet as not recommended for being low in protein when the dog that is eating it needs to be on a low protein diet due to medical issues.

I also agree with pointgold... not every dog will do well on every food ... I have dogs that did terribly on the more highly rated foods... back in the days that we were using kibble... my wolfhound breeder absolutely insisted that natalie be on a lower protein food due to the excessive growth .... I have long given up on these dog food review sites.... use what your dog is doing well on and if it ain't broke don't fix it.


----------



## Pointgold

OH OH OH!!!!!!! I have to make a HUGE confession. 

While ALL my dogs are fed a 50/50 mix of ProPlan Performance and Salmon and Rice (Sensitive Skin and Stomach) Bueller, the truly anorexic Pointer, also gets Royal Canin 4800 Energie. Why? Because he truly does not care about food, and if it were up to him, he'd eat nothing. Seriously. I have always preached the 15 minute rule, the don't hand feed , the don't coddle, etc etc etc schools of dog feeding. But Bueller WILL NOT EAT. A Pointer boy thing. I was pretty nearly at my wit's end. I was showing him to hold majors for everyone else. He was a walking anatomy lesson. 27.5" at the shoulder and barely 50 pounds. Still, he was going Reserve to the majors. At two years old I was close to giving up on him. Delta's sire's owner in Australia convinced me to try the Royal Canin 4800 - they've had Pointers just like Bueller, and Weims, too. It is 30% fat. Their Pointers (Hipoint Gundogs in Sydney, Australia) get 2 cups of it at night, and 2 cups of their "regular" kibble in the am. They back off the RC 4800 if they are getting "plump". iThese are highly active dogs, BTW. So, I found a place to order it, it's delivered to the house. Bueller has been getting 4 cups every night since January. I soak it, and I hand fed it to him (he is now starting to eat on his own - hallelujah!) He has gained 15 pounds. His first show since January, and having gained, was Birch Run. My plan was that if he did not win with the new body, that I'd take him home and he'd be our beloved pet, never to see the show ring again, and I'd chalk it up to me loving him so much that I just THOUGHT he was champion material. Well, he was WD both days for back to back majors, and only needs 4 singles to finish. Yay! 
He's a dog that needs very high fat. It's a Pointer thing. Hard to imagine, living mainly with Goldens, who will eat as they are taking their last breath, and get fat at the drop of a pin. Even when our girls are in season the Golden boys, while moaning and fretting, still eat. Bueller, OTOH, is nearly catatonic. It's awful. He's getting better, and as he's gained the weight, is becoming more (somewhat) interested in food. I'm told that once he's finished he'll probably start eating everything in sight! LOL

So, while a huge ProPlan fan, I do also buy the RC 4800 Energie. I consider it to be almost a med rather than a food! *If ProPlan made a super high fat food, trust me... I'd be using it for Bueller.


----------



## Megora

Shalva said:


> My issue with the site is that they review prescription diets under the same guidelines and parameters that they review other diets...often with scathing results... they honestly shouldn't be including prescription diets at all... I sent an email to them ages ago about it and at least now they have a disclaimer in the section on RX diets but still.... you can't refer to a diet as not recommended for being low in protein when the dog that is eating it needs to be on a low protein diet due to medical issues.


Absolutely agree with this<: 

The danger is that you have people whose dogs absolutely have to be on prescription kibble are fighting their vets because they think the food is garbage. 

That garbage saves dogs lives.


----------



## Pointgold

shalva said:


> my issue with the site is that they review prescription diets under the same guidelines and parameters that they review other diets...often with scathing results... They honestly shouldn't be including prescription diets at all... I sent an email to them ages ago about it and at least now they have a disclaimer in the section on rx diets but still.... You can't refer to a diet as not recommended for being low in protein when the dog that is eating it needs to be on a low protein diet due to medical issues.
> 
> I also agree with pointgold... Not every dog will do well on every food ... I have dogs that did terribly on the more highly rated foods... Back in the days that we were using kibble... My wolfhound breeder absolutely insisted that natalie be on a lower protein food due to the excessive growth .... I have long given up on these dog food review sites.... Use what your dog is doing well on and if it ain't broke don't fix it.


 
*amen!!!!!!*


----------



## Wagners Mom2

MikaTallulah said:


> How or where do you get all your facts from? Are you some sort of dog food genius? Just wondering :
> 
> You seem to only post about dog food and little else. No introduction about yourself or your dogs? I truly wonder why?
> 
> Why the cloak and daggers secret society approach? Just wondering


Waschampion probably has opinions, just like the rest of us. I see some helpful information from him/her and also some opinions from him/her. I think we all need to take what we want and either store it, or throw it away--just like anyone else on the net.  

And I tend to gravitate towards the food discussions as well because it's something that intrigues me and truly interests me. If I can learn from someone, wonderful and if they can learn from me, great.


----------



## Wagners Mom2

Megora said:


> Absolutely agree with this<:
> 
> The danger is that you have people whose dogs absolutely have to be on prescription kibble are fighting their vets because they think the food is garbage.
> 
> That garbage saves dogs lives.


I agree whole-heartedly. I don't care if it was crap in a box--my vet has never recommended a prescription diet to me and if they did, that is exactly what I would do. It would be different if after a few months it was not working, but to refuse it because of their opinions of the list? Nah. I don't understand that either.


----------



## Pointgold

Wagners Mom said:


> Waschampion probably has opinions, just like the rest of us. I see some helpful information from him/her and also some opinions from him/her. I think we all need to take what we want and either store it, or throw it away--just like anyone else on the net.
> 
> And I tend to gravitate towards the food discussions as well because it's something that intrigues me and truly interests me. If I can learn from someone, wonderful and if they can learn from me, great.


Exactly. There are dozens of thread topics on this forum, and I only participate in a relative few - breeding, the standard, health concerns - because those are my main interests. There are plenty that I have no interest in at all, but understand that they may be a passion for someone else.


----------



## Pointgold

MikaTallulah said:


> Pointgold I was directing my questioning towards WasChampionFan. Thanks though.


Oooooopsie. No intent to offend, just trying to lighten things up. 
:bowl:


----------



## tippykayak

Lincoln_16 said:


> How is something wrong with my dog? I know several dogs who eat carrots, apples, celery, corn etc and when they poop you can clearly see what they ate come out in chunks. Just the other day I fed Lincoln and Ruby some of my carrot. Sure enough the next day in their poop was lots of orange chunks...
> 
> I think its odd that in every post someone recommends you feed Dr Tims or Annamaet. Makes me think they are working for them but dont want to openly admit that here


I was kidding. Big enough chunks of vegetable matter will still be visible in stool, even people stool. Smaller chunks might not be. Either way, that doesn't mean it's not getting digested or that it doesn't make a contribution to the dog's system.

Are Dr. Tim's and Annamaet even the same company? 

I just don't think casting aspersions on character, particularly without evidence, is fair, especially when it distracts from the issue. Regardless of whom a person works for, their points either hold water or they don't.


----------



## A1Malinois

Your gunna have to ask WasChampionFan about the Dr Tims and Annamaet being the same company hes the expert for those dog foods I have no idea


----------



## Maddie'sMom2011

WasChampionFan does seem to be an advocate of these two foods. They've been mentioned in quite a few threads.


----------



## tippykayak

Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> WasChampionFan does seem to be an advocate of these two foods. They've been mentioned in quite a few threads.


Sure, but it's unfair to imply that the person must therefore be an employee. What if the poster just thinks the food is good? Does PG work for ProPlan? Of course not. Do I work for Eukanuba? Of course not. But we have good success with those foods, so we sometimes mention that they're good in the course of food conversations.

Ultimately, the comment about the food is true or false regardless of the identity of the poster.


----------



## Pointgold

Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> WasChampionFan does seem to be an advocate of these two foods. They've been mentioned in quite a few threads.


 
I mention ProPlan in every food thread that I participate in. I use it. I'm an advocate of it. I think it is a fantastic product. I recommend it. I could, I suppose, even change my screen name to ProPlanFan. It doesn't mean anything untoward. I do not work for ProPlan. I'm not gaining a thing by my testimonials for them. 
I'm a big fat cynic, but not everything is dark and dastardly...


----------



## Wagners Mom2

You know...I bet if waschampion fan did work for Annamaet, he would be handing us ALL coupons for a free bag so we could find out exactly why he loves it.


----------



## Maddie'sMom2011

Have you read the posts on other threads?


----------



## Pointgold

Wagners Mom said:


> You know...I bet if waschampion fan did work for Annamaet, he would be handing us ALL coupons for a free bag so we could find out exactly why he loves it.


(I'd say "Thanks, but give mine to someone else. I'm good with ProPlan..." )

And ya know, I don't think that he's ever really said anything bad about other foods in particular... he supports "professionally made products".


----------



## Wagners Mom2

Pointgold said:


> (I'd say "Thanks, but give mine to someone else. I'm good with ProPlan..." )
> 
> And ya know, I don't think that he's ever really said anything bad about other foods in particular... he supports "professionally made products".


I agree. And I've seen him mention Fromm, Pro Plan and Eukanuba among others on several occasions.


----------



## WasChampionFan

Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> WasChampionFan does seem to be an advocate of these two foods. They've been mentioned in quite a few threads.


I have mentioned several including those two, plus Red Paw, Precise, Pro Pac, Verus, Pro Plan, Eukanuba, Eagle, Fromm GOLD & Native.

I use Annamaet because it is one of the top three and I use a lot. I won't use a product unless it has been made by someone or a company with a demonstrated background in the field. It was the first company to produce a performance food, even before Pro Plan.

I also use it because it is very fairly priced.


----------



## Pointgold

Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> Have you read the posts on other threads?


 
I just did. He makes some valid arguments. Opinionated, (unlike Moi, LOL :bowl but pretty much sticks to facts.


----------



## WasChampionFan

Wagners Mom said:


> You know...I bet if waschampion fan did work for Annamaet, he would be handing us ALL coupons for a free bag so we could find out exactly why he loves it.


I don't work for any company.


----------



## Wagners Mom2

WasChampionFan said:


> I don't work for any company.


*I* didn't think so!


----------



## WasChampionFan

Lincoln_16 said:


> Your gunna have to ask WasChampionFan about the Dr Tims and Annamaet being the same company hes the expert for those dog foods I have no idea


They are not the same company. Dr. Tim's is owned by Dr. Tim Hunt and Annamaet is owned by Robert Downey. The only similarity between the two is that Ohio Pet Foods makes them both. Dr. Tim's had been made by Elmira Pet Products until a couple years ago.

They are totally different companies but they contract the same company to make the foods.


----------



## Megora

I never heard of Annamaet kibble, so I looked it up on the Dog Food Advisor to see what it was. That's about how I use that site. 

Same thing with Dr Tims. It was interesting to see the comments where Tim Hunt (apparently has a lot of time on his hands) was responding to criticism regarding certain ingredients, and removing them (like menadione). 



(This is random, but I was also happy to see that Nutro Ultra removed the menadione)


----------



## MikaTallulah

WasChampionFan said:


> I don't work for any company.


Dog food I guess is your passion. I personally could not only talk about pet food but that is just me. I know many of us can't shut up about your pets but WasChampionFan I guess you are different. Focusing only in 1 area. Enjoy.


----------



## WasChampionFan

Megora said:


> I never heard of Annamaet kibble, so I looked it up on the Dog Food Advisor to see what it was. That's about how I use that site.
> 
> Same thing with Dr Tims.
> 
> 
> 
> (This is random, but I was also happy to see that Nutro Ultra removed the menadione)


Dr. Tim is from Marquette and I understand the food is easy to get in Michigan. Excellent stuff and fairly priced in the retail stores.


----------



## 2Retrievers222

WCF you said high performance came out before Pro plan. Why don,t they sell in Canada.


----------



## Maddie'sMom2011

Ok. What your dogs name?


----------



## Megora

WasChampionFan said:


> Dr. Tim is from Marquette and I understand the food is easy to get in Michigan. Excellent stuff and fairly priced in the retail stores.


Oh I'm happy with the food I feed my golden.


----------



## MikaTallulah

Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> Ok. What your dogs name?


Which one of us? Mine are all listed below in my signature.:wave:


----------



## Maddie'sMom2011

WasChampionFan.


----------



## Pointgold

WasChampionFan said:


> I have mentioned several including those two, plus Red Paw, Precise, Pro Pac, Verus, Pro Plan, Eukanuba, Eagle, Fromm GOLD & Native.
> 
> I use Annamaet because it is one of the top three and I use a lot. I won't use a product unless it has been made by someone or a company with a demonstrated background in the field. It was the first company to produce a performance food, even before Pro Plan.
> 
> I also use it because it is very fairly priced.


 
What year was Annamaet Dog Foods established?


----------



## 2Retrievers222

Pointgold said:


> What year was Annamaet Dog Foods established?


No mention when it became available to the public, Only for over 22 years Annamaet has been fed to an in-house kennel of 40 sled dogs. No recalls ever. From website.


----------



## Pointgold

Megora said:


> I never heard of Annamaet kibble, so I looked it up on the Dog Food Advisor to see what it was. That's about how I use that site.
> 
> Same thing with Dr Tims. It was interesting to see the comments where Tim Hunt (apparently has a lot of time on his hands) was responding to criticism regarding certain ingredients, and removing them (like menadione).
> 
> 
> 
> (This is random, but I was also happy to see that Nutro Ultra removed the menadione)


 
I'd never heard of it before, either. And I actually used to race sled dogs, ISDRA sanctioned, and at the North American Championship in Ely, MN. Late 70's, so maybe before Downey's time... When we were racing (and our kennel had Class B and C state champion teams here in MI) Bench and Field was the food of choice for most top teams.


----------



## MikaTallulah

*Too cool*



Pointgold said:


> I'd never heard of it before, either. And I actually used to race sled dogs, ISDRA sanctioned, and at the North American Championship in Ely, MN. Late 70's, so maybe before Downey's time... When we were racing (and our kennel had Class B and C state champion teams here in MI) Bench and Field was the food of choice for most top teams.


Pointgold is there anything you haven't done. WOW . I am amazed at all your accomplishments. Can you be my doggie adoptive mother.


----------



## Pointgold

MikaTallulah said:


> Pointgold is there anything you haven't done. WOW . I am amazed at all your accomplishments. Can you be my doggie adoptive mother.


Hahaha! I'm too old to be much fun, now!!!!


----------



## Swampcollie

I have heard of Annamaet but it isn't widely available around here. A friend of mine is giving Red Paw a shot in his kennel at this time. I am more conservative so I'll wait and see how it goes for him over the next year. In the meantime we'll stick with Eukanuba.


----------



## Pointgold

WasChampionFan said:


> Dr. Tim is from Marquette and I understand the food is easy to get in Michigan. Excellent stuff and fairly priced in the retail stores.


 
Whew! I just checked the pricing of Annamaet on Pet Food Direct (which is one of my sources for the Royal Canin 4800 for Bueller...) and it is $69.99 for 40 lbs. That's pricey, IMO.
ProPlan Performance is $40.99 for 37.5 lbs.
The Royal Canin 4800 is $76.99 for 40 lbs right now - eeeek - which is why I ordered from another source this time for $69.99 and free shipping.


----------



## MikaTallulah

Pointgold said:


> Hahaha! I'm too old to be much fun, now!!!!


All the more reason why you should pass it on. I would be thrilled if I could get Buddy to pass CGC. 

And Cozy to not chase/attack people at the house. She has failed several trainers. I just contain her when people come over or keep her tethered to me. She started this behavior after she gave birth to her 2nd litter and is spayed now. Before than she was great with everyone.


----------



## A1Malinois

$69.99 for 40lbs is better then what im paying for 28.6lbs of Acana wich is $68.99. But, that $69.99 is probably American. Bring that to Canada and the price will inflate by about $20 O.O

I still havent seen credentials or an introduction


----------



## Pointgold

Lincoln_16 said:


> $69.99 for 40lbs is better then what im paying for 28.6lbs of Acana wich is $68.99. But, that $69.99 is probably American. Bring that to Canada and the price will inflate by about $20 O.O
> 
> I still havent seen credentials or an introduction


r 

Not to defend WasChampionFan, but to be fair, I guess that I'm not sure what "credentials" anyone would be looking for, as he's already said he doesn't work for a dog food company. I would think his credentials are the same as any pet owner looking for the best food for their dogs.
And I've seen others come on to this forum without introduction. It's just a matter of personal preference at this point, unless/until the admin determines that no postings be made by anyone unless they make a formal introduction.


----------



## A1Malinois

Pointgold said:


> r
> 
> Not to defend WasChampionFan, but to be fair, I guess that I'm not sure what "credentials" anyone would be looking for, as he's already said he doesn't work for a dog food company. I would think his credentials are the same as any pet owner looking for the best food for their dogs.
> And I've seen others come on to this forum without introduction. It's just a matter of personal preference at this point, unless/until the admin determines that no postings be made by anyone unless they make a formal introduction.


WasChampionFan went right to bashing the food I fed. Wouldnt let up, called people stupid because they wont listen to him. Held a condescending attitude etc I am not the only person who noticed this ive got a few PM's about him/her


----------



## MikaTallulah

Pointgold said:


> r
> 
> Not to defend WasChampionFan, but to be fair, I guess that I'm not sure what "credentials" anyone would be looking for, as he's already said he doesn't work for a dog food company. I would think his credentials are the same as any pet owner looking for the best food for their dogs.
> And I've seen others come on to this forum without introduction. It's just a matter of personal preference at this point, unless/until the admin determines that no postings be made by anyone unless they make a formal introduction.


True but everyone let's out something personal other than pet food preferences.


----------



## Pointgold

MikaTallulah said:


> True but everyone let's out something personal other than pet food preferences.


Does it matter all that much, really? He obviously cares enough about his pets to feed them what he considers the best. And honestly, it is not unwise to keep more personal information close to the vest. We are far too trusting of the internet in many ways. I just don't think it really should be an issue. If pet food is his thing, cool.


----------



## MikaTallulah

Whatever I guess :--crazy: 

I am done beating this dead horse. Period end of subject for me anyway.


----------



## Maddie'sMom2011

Does this poster actually have a golden? Or a reason to be here?


----------



## MikaTallulah

How about those Yankees?


----------



## Maddie'sMom2011

Ha, ha, how about the Cubbies?


----------



## MikaTallulah

Not bad but the Yanks are better :311taunt-


----------



## Maddie'sMom2011

Of course they are.


----------



## A1Malinois

I dont have a Golden and I am here haha


----------



## artbuc

Lincoln_16 said:


> WasChampionFan went right to bashing the food I fed. Wouldnt let up, called people stupid because they wont listen to him. Held a condescending attitude etc I am not the only person who noticed this ive got a few PM's about him/her


To be honest Lincoln, I think you are being a little too sensitive. I've read all of the posts and I don't think WCF has behaved as badly as you suggest.


----------



## WasChampionFan

Pointgold said:


> Whew! I just checked the pricing of Annamaet on Pet Food Direct (which is one of my sources for the Royal Canin 4800 for Bueller...) and it is $69.99 for 40 lbs. That's pricey, IMO.
> ProPlan Performance is $40.99 for 37.5 lbs.
> The Royal Canin 4800 is $76.99 for 40 lbs right now - eeeek - which is why I ordered from another source this time for $69.99 and free shipping.


PFD is expensive for some brands. I pay $48 for 40lbs of Annamaet Ultra, although most around here pay in the low $50's. Pro Plan Performance is $48.99 for 37.5 Lbs in this area.

All the 30/20's are pretty much the same price here. The cheapest would be Pro Pac Performance, which is a ripping deal.


----------



## WasChampionFan

Pointgold said:


> What year was Annamaet Dog Foods established?


It depends what you mean by established, the food was out about 1985 I think. It was born out of some studies at the University of Pennsylvania on the hunting beagles. 

I starting using it about 1990. I was living near Flemington NJ and the guy at the feed store told me it was the best food in the store so I tried it on the Jack Russells because they were picky. They did well on it. So I stuck with it. The other dogs were getting Wayne's (horrible) so then I switched them all.


----------



## WasChampionFan

Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> Does this poster actually have a golden? Or a reason to be here?


Yes I have a SunGold dog.


----------



## artbuc

WasChampionFan said:


> I have mentioned several including those two, plus Red Paw, Precise, Pro Pac, Verus, Pro Plan, Eukanuba, Eagle, Fromm GOLD & Native.
> 
> I use Annamaet because it is one of the top three and I use a lot. I won't use a product unless it has been made by someone or a company with a demonstrated background in the field. It was the first company to produce a performance food, even before Pro Plan.
> 
> I also use it because it is very fairly priced.


Precise? So interesting because yesterday I was in my local food store deciding which chicken food to try (Fromm or Orijen). A Precise rep had a display set-up at the entrance. He saw me milling around and asked me if I would like to hear about Precise. I replied politely "no thanks".

WCF, how would you rate Precise against some of your favorites such as Annamaet, Dr Tim's, Purina PP and the others you mentioned in this post? Thanks.


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

artbuc said:


> Precise? So interesting because yesterday I was in my local food store deciding which chicken food to try (Fromm or Orijen). A Precise rep had a display set-up at the entrance. He saw me milling around and asked me if I would like to hear about Precise. I replied politely "no thanks".
> 
> WCF, how would you rate Precise against some of your favorites such as Annamaet, Dr Tim's, Purina PP and the others you mentioned in this post? Thanks.


Precise is a very good food. Made in TX at their own plant, has never had any recalls. I really like that they have links to a complete nutritional analysis on each of their foods.

http://precisepet.com/


----------



## tippykayak

Lincoln_16 said:


> WasChampionFan went right to bashing the food I fed. Wouldnt let up, called people stupid because they wont listen to him. Held a condescending attitude etc I am not the only person who noticed this ive got a few PM's about him/her


There's no good reason to restart a personal conflict from another thread. WCF isn't doing that here (and I guess I didn't see the thread where he or she did). If somebody calls you stupid or breaks other forum guidelines, report the post. Spoiling for a fight in a new thread doesn't really help anybody.


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## tippykayak

Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> Does this poster actually have a golden? Or a reason to be here?


That's kind of an unfriendly question, and the poster does apparently have a Golden.

There are several frequent posters on food debates who don't currently have a Golden. It doesn't change the validity of the points they make.

If somebody's obviously here pushing a commercial interest, then yeah, that's a problem. It's pretty clear that the poster in question doesn't represent a dog food company, though, and using that insinuation to undermine his points isn't an honest kind of arguing. Go after the ideas, not the person.


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## WasChampionFan

artbuc said:


> Precise? So interesting because yesterday I was in my local food store deciding which chicken food to try (Fromm or Orijen). A Precise rep had a display set-up at the entrance. He saw me milling around and asked me if I would like to hear about Precise. I replied politely "no thanks".
> 
> WCF, how would you rate Precise against some of your favorites such as Annamaet, Dr Tim's, Purina PP and the others you mentioned in this post? Thanks.


Excellent food. I use a trainer in Minnesota that feeds the whole kennel Precise that is how I became familiar with it.

The standard formulas are the best. Simple, reasonable. The others in the line are not worth the money. My local store only carries the expensive ones, which stinks.

If you are going to try the dog on a simple Chicken & Rice food, I would try Annamaet Encore to be honest only because the starches are better processed. You said that dog had some issues.

But Precise is a top tier food. How much is Foundation? About $1lb?


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

WasChampionFan said:


> Excellent food. I use a trainer in Minnesota that feeds the whole kennel Precise that is how I became familiar with it.
> 
> The standard formulas are the best. Simple, reasonable. The others in the line are not worth the money. My local store only carries the expensive ones, which stinks.
> 
> If you are going to try the dog on a simple Chicken & Rice food, I would try Annamaet Encore to be honest only because the starches are better processed. You said that dog had some issues.
> 
> But Precise is a top tier food. How much is Foundation? About $1lb?


 
Heartypet.com has a 44 lb bonus bag of the Foundation for 45.99, usually the price for a 40 lb bag. 50% off shipping with the listed code. Here in Dallas we are lucky to have a wide variety of Precise available at Canine Commissary and Pet Supplies Plus. www.heartypet.com - Precise Chicken Meal and Rice Foundation Dog Formula


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## WasChampionFan

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Heartypet.com has a 44 lb bonus bag of the Foundation for 45.99, usually the price for a 40 lb bag. 50% off shipping with the listed code. Here in Dallas we are lucky to have a wide variety of Precise available at Canine Commissary and Pet Supplies Plus. www.heartypet.com - Precise Chicken Meal and Rice Foundation Dog Formula


I love large bags like that. If you do the math, it is amazing what you pay by the lb on smaller bags. Eagle still sells "breeder bags" in 50lbs.

You know this rotational feeding mumbo jumbo? That is a little trick to get people to buy smaller bags at a much higher price per lb. Smaller bags obviously cost less, but the feeding cost is very high.


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## Happy Dog Owner

I think this site has really useful information. Susan will tell you what is really going on with the manufactures food and she is the first to report pet food recalls.
TruthaboutPetFood.com


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## Swampcollie

Happy Dog Owner said:


> I think this site has really useful information. Susan will tell you what is really going on with the manufactures food and she is the first to report pet food recalls.
> TruthaboutPetFood.com


However the owner/author of that website is not a veterinarian, nutritionist nor trained in the veterninary sciences. It's just one pet owners' personal opinion.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Actually she has been one who has attended the AAFCO/ FDA meetings and is a good watch dog for sourcing issues, warnings. It doesn't take a nutritionist or vet for that. And heaven only knows the dog food industry could use some activists trying to improve quality control and sourcing.


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## GoldenBarks

Its a pretty decent source. I'd say keep it simple and look for a dog food that has the main ingredient as chicken or beef. Those corn based products are garbage.


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## oakleysmommy

artbuc said:


> Precise? So interesting because yesterday I was in my local food store deciding which chicken food to try (Fromm or Orijen). A Precise rep had a display set-up at the entrance. He saw me milling around and asked me if I would like to hear about Precise. I replied politely "no thanks".
> 
> WCF, how would you rate Precise against some of your favorites such as Annamaet, Dr Tim's, Purina PP and the others you mentioned in this post? Thanks.


I use Precise for all 4 doggies, they do great on it..No Recalls either. i was using the Precise Holistic but just switched to the Foundation Formula. The Great Dane Lady said the Foundation formula is like the Holisitic without all the "bells and whistles". its simple food


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## MikaTallulah

Happy Dog Owner said:


> I think this site has really useful information. Susan will tell you what is really going on with the manufactures food and she is the first to report pet food recalls.
> TruthaboutPetFood.com


She seems honest and passionate to me. Doesn't hurt that she authored 2 books. I like both of her sites- Someone suggested them when Zoey got sick and I said I was not going to feed Purina anymore and was going to research for a new dog food.

I would rather that advice from a passionate pet owner than Joe Blow or a dentist. My dentist asks me for pet advice.


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## Megora

MikaTallulah said:


> I would rather that advice from a passionate pet owner than Joe Blow or a dentist.


Even if a dentist were a passionate pet owner?


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## MikaTallulah

Megora said:


> Even if a dentist were a passionate pet owner?


True. But how do I know they a unbiased? IMO- Susan seems like she would post against any pet food company. She did co-Author a book with a vet.

I don't know about the dentist though. I have truthfully not looked into him. Has he written any books related to pet food?


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## Megora

MikaTallulah said:


> I don't know about the dentist though. I have truthfully not looked into him. Has he written any books related to pet food?


Remember writing a book doesn't mean a person is an expert on the topic. Lots of people write books and get published. Anyone can self-publish, etc. 

I didn't personally look into the dentist beyond the fact that the reason why he started that website was the loss of a dog in the 2007 dog food crisis. That's why he got pretty hyper about what's going into dog food, etc.

Now if he were saying anything that were not said already or posted by actual experts, then I would be pretty nervous. There are wackadoos out there who are making up a lot of theories about dog food based on their own personal impressions of what is going on with their dogs. Those websites are out there, and those are pretty dangerous - especially when the people recommend that dog owners neglect vaccinations or treatments etc.


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## MikaTallulah

Megora said:


> Remember writing a book doesn't mean a person is an expert on the topic. Lots of people write books and get published. Anyone can self-publish, etc.
> 
> I didn't personally look into the dentist beyond the fact that the reason why he started that website was the loss of a dog in the 2007 dog food crisis. That's why he got pretty hyper about what's going into dog food, etc.
> 
> Now if he were saying anything that were not said already or posted by actual experts, then I would be pretty nervous. There are wackadoos out there who are making up a lot of theories about dog food based on their own personal impressions of what is going on with their dogs. Those websites are out there, and those are pretty dangerous - especially when the people recommend that dog owners neglect vaccinations or treatments etc.


I agree :wave: especially about the wackadoos


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## WasChampionFan

Megora said:


> Remember writing a book doesn't mean a person is an expert on the topic. Lots of people write books and get published. Anyone can self-publish, etc.
> 
> I didn't personally look into the dentist beyond the fact that the reason why he started that website was the loss of a dog in the 2007 dog food crisis. That's why he got pretty hyper about what's going into dog food, etc.
> 
> Now if he were saying anything that were not said already or posted by actual experts, then I would be pretty nervous. There are wackadoos out there who are making up a lot of theories about dog food based on their own personal impressions of what is going on with their dogs. Those websites are out there, and those are pretty dangerous - especially when the people recommend that dog owners neglect vaccinations or treatments etc.


I don't vaccinate except for rabies (because it is the law) after the 1 year booster, never have. And I never vaccinated a puppy until the earliest 8 weeks. The last vaccine I would use is Lyme, it is dangerous.


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## Megora

WasChampionFan said:


> I don't vaccinate except for rabies (because it is the law) after the 1 year booster, never have. And I never vaccinated a puppy until the earliest 8 weeks. The last vaccine I would use is Lyme, it is dangerous.


See... I'm the opposite. I see no reason to vaccinate for Lyme. Everything else though - _definitely_.

ETA - And I misread your comment.  You said the LAST vaccine. I read "the only vaccine". Sorry.


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## tippykayak

WasChampionFan said:


> The last vaccine I would use is Lyme, it is dangerous.


Not nearly as dangerous as Lyme is. All vaccines carry a risk of side effects, but none of them is as dangerous as the disease it prevents.


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## Maddie'sMom2011

We live in central Illinois. It's tickville. What should we do?


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## MikaTallulah

I know I vaccinate mine for Lymes. I know a police dog that was crippled by Lymes and I never want that to happen to my dogs.

If I can prevent an illness I will prevent it. There are too many other things I can't control but vaccinating I can.

I AM A PROUD OVER VACCINATOR- I guess.


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## Pointgold

WasChampionFan said:


> It depends what you mean by established, the food was out about 1985 I think. It was born out of some studies at the University of Pennsylvania on the hunting beagles.
> 
> I starting using it about 1990. I was living near Flemington NJ and the guy at the feed store told me it was the best food in the store so I tried it on the Jack Russells because they were picky. They did well on it. So I stuck with it. The other dogs were getting Wayne's (horrible) so then I switched them all.


 
I'm someone who likes research. I contacted Annamaet, they replied that they have been in business since 1986.
You'd stated that they had the first performance formula out, even before ProPlan. Nestle Purina responded that ProPlan All Life Stages PerformanceFormula was in stores April 1986. So I'm not sure Annamaet actually was first.


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## 2Retrievers222

Looks like Purina is pretty old. Nestle bought them 2001 


Ralston Purina was the fifth largest soybean crusher in the US in 1980 and the largest producer of soy protein isolates.​The Ralston Purina Company was founded in 1893 in St. Louis, Missouri, as an animal feed company by William H. Danforth (1870-1955).
In 1930 Ralston Purina began soybean processing in a plant at ??? , State?? By the early 1940s the company was the largest single consumer of soybean meal in America. Sold in "Purina Chows" under the famous corporate trademark, the red and white checkerboard, the meal was used mostly as poultry and livestock feeds (Dies 1942).
By 1947 Ralston was operating at least four soybean crushing plants, located in Lafayette, Indiana; Iowa Falls, Iowa; Kansas City, Missouri; and St. Louis, Missouri. The four plants contained 23 expeller presses, had a combined capacity of 560 tons of soybeans a day, and a storage capacity of 3.91 million bushels of soybeans. The main product of each plant was Purina Chows feeds. By 1950 Ralston had an expeller plant in Circleville, Ohio. By 1960 new hexane solvent plants had been added in Bloomington, Illinois; Decatur, Illinois; Louisville, Kentucky; New Madrid, Missouri; Memphis, Tennessee; and Raleigh, North Carolina. Two plants had been sold, giving the company a total of nine in 1960 (_Soybean Blue Book_). The feeds were now called "Protein Chows" mixed feeds, for which Ralston had staked out a broad franchise, as had Central Soya and Allied Mills.
In 1958 Ralston started its first plant making soy protein isolates, in Louisville, Kentucky; only industrial-grade isolates, used mostly for paper coatings, were produced. The production of food-grade isolates was started in 1960.
By 1969 Ralston had become the world's largest producer of formulated livestock and poultry feeds with plants in over 40 states and 30 foreign countries. That year its only edible soy products were soy protein isolates and spun soy protein fibers; a chip like product was made from Ralston's textured Edi-pro. These foods were sold only to the food industry, not directly to consumers.
In 1978 Ralston expressed its deepened interest in soy protein foods by sponsoring the Keystone Conference on soy protein and human nutrition, a milestone event that brought together the top researchers in the field and resulted in the publication by Academic Press of an excellent book containing the proceedings (Wilcke et al. 1979). Starting at about this time Ralston became America's undisputed leader in the field of food-grade soy protein isolates; their research led to the development of a full line of isolates with very bland flavors and improved functional properties. These were widely advertised starting in 1979. Ralston also developed an improved textured soy protein isolate and pioneered in the development of soy isolate/dairy blends. In 1979 they had a branch in Europe: Purina Protein Europa SA in Brussels.
By 1980 Ralston produced roughly 100 million lb?? of soy protein isolates, more than all other US producers combined. The only other manufacturers were Grain Processing Corp. and Dawson Mills. They were marketing 11 types of soy protein isolates with various characteristics plus spun soy protein fibers, isolate granules (extruded isolate; Supro 50), and three types of soy/dairy blends. They also made industrial protein paper coatings and industrial lecithin. They had soybean crushing plants in seven locations


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## Happy Dog Owner

*Dog Food Advisor Isn't A Vet*

I personally have had a bad experience on that forum. He sells dog food from his site therefore his reviews, I believe, are influenced by the manufactures. Also he is not a vet or nutritionist so his reviews are based on his opinion from reading the labels. :no:


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## Megora

Happy Dog Owner said:


> I personally have had a bad experience on that forum. He sells dog food from his site therefore his reviews, I believe, are influenced by the manufactures. Also he is not a vet or nutritionist so his reviews are based on his opinion from reading the labels. :no:


Where on the site can you buy dog food from a dentist? 




> The Dog Food Advisor is a personal blog written and edited by me. The views and opinions expressed here are presented in good faith and are strictly my own.
> *I do not accept money or gifts* from pet food manufacturers in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of my reviews or ratings.


The other person mentioned here makes you buy her books or give money in order to see her "list". How is that better?


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## Happy Dog Owner

Megora said:


> Where on the site can you buy dog food from a dentist?
> 
> 
> The other person mentioned here makes you buy her books or give money in order to see her "list". How is that better?


It's listed on the first page. The DOG FOOD ADVISOR sells dog food through PETFLOW. Here's the link - PetFlow | Get Started

You can go to Susan's site and read all the pet related articles, especially on the recalls, and that's free. Here's the link - TruthaboutPetFood.com 

She may charge to view her list because she isn't getting any money from the manufactures. So her list is truly unbiased.


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## Megora

Happy Dog Owner said:


> It's listed on the first page. The DOG FOOD ADVISOR sells dog food through PETFLOW. Here's the link - PetFlow | Get Started


I'm not sure how much money (if any) he's getting back from linking to a online catalog, but if you go on PETFLOW, they also sell the cwappy food as well. What a bad salesman he is!  



> You can go to Susan's site and read all the pet related articles, especially on the recalls, and that's free. Here's the link - TruthaboutPetFood.com


I can and do read about recalls and pet related articles from various sources, not just this woman's blog. 



> She may charge to view her list because she isn't getting any money from the manufactures. So her list is truly unbiased.


Her list is a sales gimick. She has her select number of dog foods that she specially recommends, but you have give her money before she lets you see it. Oh and you have to promise not to share that list with anyone. 

She doesn't need to sell dog food for manufactures because she's capitalizing by creating hype and cashing in on it.


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## Happy Dog Owner

Megora said:


> I'm not sure how much money (if any) he's getting back from linking to a online catalog, but if you go on PETFLOW, they also sell the cwappy food as well. What a bad salesman he is!
> 
> 
> Her list is a sales gimick. She has her select number of dog foods that she specially recommends, but you have give her money before she lets you see it. Oh and you have to promise not to share that list with anyone.
> 
> She doesn't need to sell dog food for manufactures because she's capitalizing by creating hype and cashing in on it.


Well, maybe your right. But I guess if you spend a lot of time researching the food, you might want to get something out of it. Maybe she only recommends food that she feels comfortable recommending. Her reputation is on the line. So if it were me, I would do the same. I believe she takes a lot of things into consideration, like recalls. I don't pay for her list but I do like the fact she seems to be one of the first people with info on recalls and the FDA. I'm sure running a website isn't cheap.

I guess I look at the Truth About Pet Food the same as Angie's list. Honest reviews without kickbacks. Happy Sunday!


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## Megora

> I'm sure running a website isn't cheap.


Depends on the website.  

I don't have a problem with her blog. I'm just pointing out the fact that she isn't doing this as a higher calling and is holier than that DENTIST.  She's using her blog and her hype-driven following to sell her self-published books and her self-published list.


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## Happy Dog Owner

Megora said:


> Depends on the website.
> 
> I don't have a problem with her blog. I'm just pointing out the fact that she isn't doing this as a higher calling and is holier than that DENTIST.  She's using her blog and her hype-driven following to sell her self-published books and her self-published list.


It seems everyone is trying to get you to buy, buy, buy. Look at this forum. It's filled with advertisments. I don't mind.

But the dentist is giving you an opinion off a label. Nothing else. I can give you an opinion off a label. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read and figure out from the label if the food is good. And he admits he gets his information off public resources. So he gives an opinion, and he isn't a vet or nutritionist, and steals other peoples research, without giving them credit, and gives you the impression he did the research. Pretty sad.

It makes me mad if someone steal someones elses hard work and doesn't give them the credit. There are people that make a living investigating and researching and you don't copy their information, post it on your site, and call yourself an unbiased expert. :no: Shame on him!


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## Megora

Happy Dog Owner said:


> But the dentist is giving you an opinion off a label. Nothing else. I can give you an opinion off a label. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read and figure out from the label if the food is good.


But having all that information in one place saves me time. That's the biggest reason why I like his blog. 

Other websites or people out there give people advice on how to read labels or what to look for. And that's about all they do. This information is out there everywhere. Heck, even my dog's breeder provided a print up with the same exact advice.

I believe that is what the dentist goes by with his reviews. Nothing more than that. You can't steal something if it is already pretty common and shared everywhere. 

As far as accusing him of stealing information from other websites, the information he provides on each product - there aren't any public resources out there that does the same thing. And there aren't public resources that provide the public forum (the comments you will see for each product review). He claims he is writing or calling the manufacturers to get more information which he uses to update his reviews. 



> So he gives an opinion, and he isn't a vet or nutritionist


Neither is that Susan lady who has self-published two books and some special list of her approved foods...


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## Happy Dog Owner

At least Susan does the research, and is creditable.


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## Artnlibsmom

Wow, tough crowd here. Seems everyone has their own opinion....that's exactly why I like this forum. I can get many opinions.....the hard part is sorting through it all. 

I've fed Verus for the last eight years with great results...I think. When my female had thyroid problems ( didn't matter what we did, she just kept gaining weight.....even with two, three mile walks every day) the vet tested for thyroid even though (paraphrasing) " she doesn't LOOK like a thyroid problem, her coat is way too nice". Was that from the quality if the food? Dunno....

Now though, she's gone...cancer....I'm wondering about switching.....could the food have caused any problems...probably not....but did it really make a difference? Other than my wallet...57.00 30 pound bag....hour drive to get it....hmmmm....

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## robertshalit

so what is this crappy brand?


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## Artbuc1

Happy Dog Owner said:


> Well, maybe your right. But I guess if you spend a lot of time researching the food, you might want to get something out of it. Maybe she only recommends food that she feels comfortable recommending. Her reputation is on the line. So if it were me, I would do the same. I believe she takes a lot of things into consideration, like recalls. I don't pay for her list but I do like the fact she seems to be one of the first people with info on recalls and the FDA. I'm sure running a website isn't cheap.
> 
> I guess I look at the Truth About Pet Food the same as Angie's list. Honest reviews without kickbacks. Happy Sunday!


IIRC, Angie's list has been exposed, at least in some areas, as having unreliable reviews based on kickbacks.


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