# Training without Treats



## Saphira (Nov 2, 2008)

What do you think of not using treats when training obedience? I have a dog who gets very distracted by treats, and am considering just using verbal praise with petting to teach him what is expected of him. I want to hear pro's and con's of treating, plus any alternatives you may have. Please share your opinions, as this should make for an interesting conversation!


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## Auenk9 (Oct 23, 2008)

Many trainers don't use treats. Just praise. Nothing wrong with that if your dog will work for just the praise. Some dogs will. Some won't. However...sooner or later....everyone does have to wean off the treats if they are going to take their dog into the obedience ring. I use a combination of treats, toys and me (praise) in training to keep things interesting and fun. Obedience training is all about having fun with your dog...in my opinion. Everyone has to learn to read their dog and what will make their dog put forth the effort and have yet...have fun and learn. Its all about balance.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Hi i trained my 10 year old male and 7 month old female without using food rewards. When you tell them to sit gently push on the bottom while pushing of the bottom keep saying sit once in sit postion praise with a pat and good boy or girl. With drop get your dog into sit position then with your fingers move downward if that don't work gently pull the front legs forward while doing so say drop or lay down place hand on back so dog don't get up straight away. When you give the praise is the time your dog should be allowed to get up. Goldens are very easy to train and it doesn't take them long to catch on. By moving your hand up behind the head should also get your dog to sit. I've seen some bad things with people using food rewards one lady owns a 5 year old labrador that won't do a thing unless theres food involved. But then i've seen some bad things happen with people who use only praise like hitng a dog if it did wrong.


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## spruce (Mar 13, 2008)

treats were heavily used in Bridger's OB I & II classes (I kept envisualizing all these very obedient, very obese dogs). When we do "training" walks I alternate treats/pets/praise with pets/praise.

I'm not heavy into training - just want a good friend.

Our labs were never treat trained - they just wanted to please (except our current girl, Sadie! she responds much quicker when treats are involved )


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

Great thread topic!! I will chime in a little later I am sure, because I love this topic so much. But my take is that it really is based upon the individual dog. There are some dogs that really need that extra motivation, and treats can be very effective. And yet there are some dogs, like the dogs from the previous post, that worked simply for that tactile reward (petting and praise).


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I also think that dogs are very different in whether they are treat motivated or not. Lucky is VERY treat motivated. I don't have to wean him...he just kinda forgets to expect a treat.

He could have been trained without them, but I would have had to use quite a bit of negative training ....


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## Auenk9 (Oct 23, 2008)

Whether you use treats or toys or just yourself...there has to be something in it for the dog and depending on the dog you have....it is up to you to figure out what makes him/her tick!


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## kjarv24 (Nov 7, 2008)

When we had Ruben our Golden Mix he Was FULLY motivated by treats, it never interfered with his training at all. Treats just made him more willing, and he would always listen to our commands when out even without treats, just had to give Extra Lovins 
If you can get by with no treats & just praise, or toys! then GREAT!
I like the idea of switching things up, giving your dog something different to look forward to each training session


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## cody (Dec 10, 2007)

Our lab forgets she has a brain when I use treats. I ended up using retrieving as the reward for OB. It is a lot slower progress than if we used treats but she is much more focused on what she is doing rather than what might be in my pocket.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I use different treats based on what I am doing. Danny is my super treat oriented dog, so much so that he can get distracted and only concentrate in the treats. So if I need him to heel, I can use a high value treat and he will stay in place. In our agility class, high value treats distract him too much and he spends too much time worrying about whether he is going to get one, so I use his kibble instead. He still really likes it, but he isn't obsessed like he is over the other treats.


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## tino4ever (May 12, 2008)

i use a combination of treats and just praise with Tino. when he is working n his harness, i tr to avoid using treats sometiems cause a heavily drooling doggie is no fun to have in a train or a buss  and one thing a trainer commented was when he was seeking a cheer, "dn't ever give him a treat on the seat .. he mgiht be drooling a lil too much sometiems and nobody would want to sit htere afterwards" 

greetings from Ran and Tino.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Treats don't work on a lot of dogs- especially some sighthounds, which simply don't care about food very much. Such dogs are often not very toy motivated either, and they sure don't care about praise. This is the issue with such breeds- all that's left is negative training, since there aren't any *easily found* rewards that interest them enough. They tend to be sensitive, calm dogs who require little training to be nice pets, but it makes serious obedience or trick training a challenge. The opposite is a wild, hyper dog that pulls on the leash, jumps on everyone, loves toys, is obsessed with food... such a dog is actually far easier to motivate (he wants *everything* in the world!) and teach tricks and commands to, but more of a challenge to live with in daily life. 

Most Goldens, of course, are pigs. You can use this to your advantage!

Whether you need to or not depends on the dog and the type of training you want. Do you want a dog that just doesn't pull the leash, or do you want amazing, head up, flashy show ring heelwork? For very advanced tricks and behaviors, or things like freestyle dancing, I feel you really need to use a clicker or a clicker type of method, and therefore, you must use treats. I have seen dogs negative trained into obedience work, but not into the type of sparkling behavior needed for freestyle dancing. Also some things would take literally hours and hours to train the "old way" of forcing and repeating over and over... and take only a few minutes with a clicker. Once a dog "gets" the clicker, new behaviors can be taught in minutes, and old ones can be shaped to perfection without any corrections or loss of interest or boredom in the dog (assuming he's one of those foody dogs!). 

That said, you can easily train a dog to sit, stay, and not pull on the leash without any food. It depends what you want to do... and how you want your dog to look while doing it (bored, or really flashy). 

If you have a dog that won't work for food readily, keep sessions short, and stop BEFORE he loses interest in the food. Neutering/spaying can make a HUGE difference too, in making a dog that is picky more interested in food. Especially a male... both my male dogs are WAY WAY more food motivated after neutering, and the change was almost overnight about a month after surgery. 

If you have a dog that is out of control for food, use something less exciting, like pieces of his kibble... save actual treats for special occasions. If you have a fat and greedy dog, take a handful out of his measured daily bowl of kibble and use that as training rewards.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

fostermom said:


> I use different treats based on what I am doing. Danny is my super treat oriented dog, so much so that he can get distracted and only concentrate in the treats. So if I need him to heel, I can use a high value treat and he will stay in place. In our agility class, high value treats distract him too much and he spends too much time worrying about whether he is going to get one, so I use his kibble instead. He still really likes it, but he isn't obsessed like he is over the other treats.


I agree with this and change value treats too. High value treats often for something new- kibble for something very familiar like a run through of a Rally course with all well-known elements.


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