# Field training question of the week:



## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

IMO - a dog entered in a Junior test, WC, WCX, or Derby should have completed all components of FF which include Hold (first segment).

Swim By is the second component of handling (after teaching handling on land with FTP, T, and Double T) so it is NOT necessary before running any of the above. Dogs that are currently "in transition" ie training for blind work, can have greatly reduced marking ability. They are just thinking about a different element of the work and I personally think that you should think twice about running a Junior test with a dog that is currently working in transition. Some can and will do great, some forget how to find a ham sandwich in the dining room during this training. Not to worry, it comes back but it can appear that all the initial work was for nothing as the dog falls apart on simple marks.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Leslie,
If they are birdy, they really shouldn't need FF should they? They really should only need "hold"? Assuming they are birdy enough that they will pick up anything?

I agree about not being able to find marks once they begin handling. It is amazing what goes on inside a dog's brain!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

If they aren't force fetched then what do you do when they decide not to hold? 
I don't even teach the command hold anymore. It's redundant. 
Running junior without a forced fetched dog is typically left to the experienced no-force trainer and the rank novice who is ignorant of how dogs act at hunt tests (and of the rules, and of what is required for junior). No thank you. 
"Birdiness" has nothing to do with the trained requirements of Junior. It's not something they are tested on: by the time a dog shows up at a test they better like birds. 
I don't know any derby dogs who have done anything that aren't through transition and handling well in water before running successful derbies. 
Train the dog. Enter when ready. Don't take shortcuts or find reasons to shortchange your dog on proper training. What they do in a hunt test is a direct reflection on YOUR ability to prepare them.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Alaska7133 said:


> Leslie,
> If they are birdy, they really shouldn't need FF should they? They really should only need "hold"? Assuming they are birdy enough that they will pick up anything?
> 
> I agree about not being able to find marks once they begin handling. It is amazing what goes on inside a dog's brain!


There is a concept out there called "forced hold" as opposed to force fetch.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

K9-Design said:


> If they aren't force fetched then what do you do when they decide not to hold?
> I don't even teach the command hold anymore. It's redundant.
> Running junior without a forced fetched dog is typically left to the experienced no-force trainer and the rank novice who is ignorant of how dogs act at hunt tests (and of the rules, and of what is required for junior). No thank you.
> "Birdiness" has nothing to do with the trained requirements of Junior. It's not something they are tested on: by the time a dog shows up at a test they better like birds.
> ...


Read this about 50 more times we all need to read it.


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

My trainer always told me that he does not want a dog to run in a JH hunt test until they are ready for a SH hunt test....etc. etc. etc. Train first then test/ compete!

Since WC and WCX are Marking tests, a dog does not need to be through transition, but you had better run them on many marks including triples....we skip WC and ran WCX after SH was in the bag...even then it was not a 'give me'! Of the four dogs running WCX that day, 2 were SH's...mine and another....the other SH did not make it through the land triple...! Fortunately we did and went on to earn the WCX...but as you all warned my, preparation is key! That includes running the scenarios and knowing the rules!


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> New question.
> 1. Do you think a dog running an AKC junior hunter test should have completed "hold" training?
> 
> 2. Do you think they should have completed forced fetch training?
> ...


Because I only run field trials, I will substitute DERBY for each one.
1. With most dogs, yes. Delivery to hand is a requirement, so I don't want to have that to worry about. Also, if the dog drops or otherwise messes around with the first bird of a double, he's burning memory. Plus, this is typically an easy thing to train.
2. With most dogs, yes, although I've run dogs in Derby stakes that haven't "completed" force fetch. Again, this is usually an easy thing to train, at least the early elements.
3. Not a requirement. Swim by may be necessary for some dogs before running a Derby stake, but I've never put my Derby dogs through swim by. (And yes, I've had some Derby placements ... I even had a pretty decent Open dog or two that I didn't put through swim by.) I'm not advocating that it shouldn't be done, in fact, my current competitor HAS been through swim by. And because most (or all) training programs include swim by for field trial competitors, it's probably the best route to go, at least if one's goal is to competitively run Qual and higher levels.
Just my opinion, just my way.
FTGoldens


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> Leslie,
> If they are birdy, they really shouldn't need FF should they? They really should only need "hold"? Assuming they are birdy enough that they will pick up anything?


But don't forget, FF also teaches them to release the bird on command ... with some dogs, this is a pretty big deal.
FTGoldens


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Alaska7133 said:


> New question.
> Do you think a dog running an AKC junior hunter test should have completed "hold" training?
> 
> Do you think they should have completed forced fetch training?
> ...


I think that depends how far you want to go.
Holding a dead, wet stinky duck with the Junior grab will get you thru junior.
FF has more to do with dealing with pressure and how to turn it off,than picking up a single and retrieving to hand.So I would say no.

Swim by
Forgettaboutit


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Poppy2 said:


> FF has more to do with dealing with pressure and how to turn it off,than picking up a single and retrieving to hand.


Great point!


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