# Puppy kindergarten



## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

The reason puppy kindergarten is a thing (rather than just obedience 101/ basic obedience) is specifically allowing a short stretch for socialization play. 

Lana is the youngest in her kindergarten group @ 9 weeks old but she was leading the charge/chase/play on Saturday. She even had to be pulled aside for a "break" when she got a little too rough with a springer spaniel. Likewise, there was a lab there who was quite shy. But the instructor told the owner that one of the more rough and tumble puppies was just like that lab a few weeks ago. That this play is meant to give them an opportunity to find their comfort zone and then to explore outside it in a manner than is supervised and safe for them. 

Don't give up hope! I remember in Bear's kindergarten class there was a beautiful GR puppy who was very shy. And they preferred a quieter play style over the boisterous one Bear preferred. So a couple classes in, the instructor started separating dogs by play style so the quieter ones could play together and wouldn't be overwhelmed by the rough and tumble ones.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

That does not sound normal to me. In our puppy class, the pups were allowed to play with one another for very short periods (under a minute), and the purpose of that was to teach them to go back to their owners afterwards. We let them play, then had to lure them back to us with a toy or food, or by reeling them in gently on the leash (which we never took off). And we were asked to let them play only with other pups of their size/energy level. For example, my Golden puppy wasn't allowed to play with the toy poodle puppy that was in the same class. Fearful or very young pups were never, ever forced to deal with bigger, older or more unruly pups. It's not the possibility of physical injury that's the main problem (although it's a concern where there's a big size difference), it's the possibility of overfacing the pup and laying down the foundations for fear or aggression problems where there were none before.



In addition, our puppy class is reserved for pups under 4 months of age, so there are never any unruly teenagers there. There's a different class for pups over 4 months old.



IMHO a puppy class that has very long play periods - and 15 minutes is _very _long - is an absolute cop-out on the part of the trainer. There's so much that needs to be done to teach new puppy owners how to train/manage their pups. It's much more important (again IMHO) to teach the pups to focus on their humans instead of their environment, and to teach the humans how to be more fun for their pups. Otherwise, you're going to encounter problems later: a dog that pulls on leash to visit other dogs when on walks, a dog that won't come when called, a dog that refuses to walk on leash, etc. 



If this were my dog and she was showing signs of being fearful, I would not let her take part in the playtime. Instead, I'd ask the trainer to give me some basic training exercise games that I could play with her, in a corner, away from the fray. If the trainer refused to do that, I'd be looking around for new one (I'd probably be doing that anyway). It's good that your trainer isn't forcing your pup to participate - that would be disastrous - but if I were in your shoes I'd be doing something proactive with her, instead of letting her hide in terror under a chair. If she's playing with you, doing something fun, it's a way of getting her used to a frightening environment by introducing a positive aspect - the fun game.



You should absolutely not be going to dog parks with a puppy - or with any young dog. They are dangerous places. Maybe you could identify someone in your training group who has a pup of roughly the same age and temperament as yours, and arrange to meet up outside class, so the two pups can play together? I did that with my pup - an agility acquaintance got a border collie pup at the same time as I got my pup, and we met up for play sessions. I also have a friend who has an adult Portuguese water dog with an amazing temperament, and my pup played with him too. They are still best friends three years later. The important thing is for all your pup's experiences with other dogs to be positive ones, and it sounds like the puppy playtime in class is not positive for her. 



Best of luck! Hope it works out.


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## Zeke1 (Nov 20, 2015)

Brave said:


> The reason puppy kindergarten is a thing (rather than just obedience 101/ basic obedience) is specifically allowing a short stretch for socialization play.
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Thank you! yes a few people who had been there earlier had said yes they have seen shy pups in the past eventually get to their comfort level sometimes it took even three weeks later but they eventually get there. Thank you so much for your encouragement just don’t want her to get hurt!!!


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Zeke1 said:


> Thank you! yes a few people who had been there earlier had said yes they have seen shy pups in the past eventually get to their comfort level sometimes it took even three weeks later but they eventually get there. Thank you so much for your encouragement just don’t want her to get hurt!!!


I get it. Lana got tumbled a couple times by an aussie who was about twice her size. But the instructors put the aussie on time out and Lana just got up and went to play in the water bowls (only dog in the group who wanted to go swimming). I think it's important to establish that even if you get tumbled or scared, that it's not the end of the world and good things still happen.


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## Zeke1 (Nov 20, 2015)

ceegee said:


> That does not sound normal to me. In our puppy class, the pups were allowed to play with one another for very short periods (under a minute), and the purpose of that was to teach them to go back to their owners afterwards. We let them play, then had to lure them back to us with a toy or food, or by reeling them in gently on the leash (which we never took off). And we were asked to let them play only with other pups of their size/energy level. For example, my Golden puppy wasn't allowed to play with the toy poodle puppy that was in the same class. Fearful or very young pups were never, ever forced to deal with bigger, older or more unruly pups. It's not the possibility of physical injury that's the main problem (although it's a concern where there's a big size difference), it's the possibility of overfacing the pup and laying down the foundations for fear or aggression problems where there were none before.
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Yes it’s probably more like 10 minutes I miss spoke when I said 15 minutes. Yes I think I would be more comfortable if she was playing with dogs more like her age other than other big older dogs as well-and that was my fear as well thinking if she is under stress that this might change her personality to have fear of other dogs etc. But he said no this is normal he’s been doing this for 20 years and he sees it just takes certain dog certain time. And there were other people who had their dogs there who also said they’ve witnessed the same. I may have to talk to him privately just to make me feel better


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## Zeke1 (Nov 20, 2015)

Brave said:


> I get it. Lana got tumbled a couple times by an aussie who was about twice her size. But the instructors put the aussie on time out and Lana just got up and went to play in the water bowls (only dog in the group who wanted to go swimming). I think it's important to establish that even if you get tumbled or scared, that it's not the end of the world and good things still happen.




Yes what the trainer says if we show her our worry or go over and coddle her that’s just reinforcing her fear.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hmmm.....  

I'm waiting for information to be returned regarding puppy classes next month for my pup.... I'm still contemplating skipping them altogether and waiting until my pup is 4 months old to do jumpstart obedience classes instead. 

What I do know from the small blurb for these classes is they are for puppies between the ages of 10 weeks through 4 months. 

One of my sisters did these classes last year and the instructor does not do "free for all" play sessions during class. What she DOES do is match puppies up with similar/equable temperaments for one on one minglings. I believe the pups stay on leash and get to visit and play. 

This goes towards having growing pups who can handle other dogs entering their space + there's always a certain amount of control to ensure "negative socialization" doesn't occur.

Have heard from numerous people with aversions to goldens that they had their puppies almost mauled in puppy class by golden retrievers. To me that speaks loudly that bad things can happen when the pups are turned loose together and there is no control over the interactions.

Puppy classes should be about getting the pups confident about being around other dogs and people and in strange places. You are building or "protecting" a pup's confidence level. With soft pups (and golden pups are frequently soft), it doesn't take much to break that confidence.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

At this age puppies should be having all good experiences. That didn't sound like a good experience for your pup. The puppy classes I have attended and assisted in training were on the line of what Ceegee stated in her post. Some classes the pups were separated into smaller groups both by size and confidence level. It was never a free for all. To me puppy kindergarten is to learn how to teach your puppy. And as each additional week progresses being able to have the pup do the behaviors in a distracting situation. It is the connection between owner and pup and being able to eventually go anywhere and your pup willing to connect with you.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

The classes my pup is in are for puppies up to the age of 20 weeks, and has a limit of 12 puppies. During play times the small dogs were separated from the larger pups. The first class Cache was terrified and hid - over whelmed by all the activity, he was then put with a couple of small dogs where he gained some confidence. The second class he was again with the small dogs, but they played as a group, and he had some fun there. Third class, he was paired up with a couple of calmer dogs his age, and played well with them, by the fourth class he was playing well with the whole group of bigger pups. 

Though I agree that no pup should be forced to join in the play, I also think that if a puppy is having problems, is clearly intimidated, or is cornered and has no escape, it is important from someone to be nearby to remove/redirect the over zealous puppies and give the pup some space - a lesson in appropriate social behavior for the over zealous pups, and for the pup who is feeling overwhelmed, that help is there if they need it and that the other dogs will give some space when needed. 

A lot has changed in the last 20 yrs in the understanding of dog behavior and emotions in dogs, there is no such thing as 'reinforcing a pup's fear', they depend on us to keep them safe, and help them feel safe, if they know/trust that we will do that for them, it gives them more confidence to be able to handle those 'scary' events on their own. Absolutely if you dash in and pick your pup up and possibly frighten her further, the message you portray may be that she should be afraid, if you go in (with a plan) and redirect the other pups away (socially appropriate dog behavior) you give her the space that she is asking for, she can learn that she will be 'heard'. Some puppies do well on their own, others, shyer more timid puppies often need some help, we do have to find a balance between giving them a chance to work it out and stepping and giving them some help when they need it. Poor or frightening experiences early on can result in fearful/unwanted behaviors that show up in the future - depends on the dog - have been down that road with my now senior girl. 

https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/t...ou-cant-reinforce-fear-dogs-and-thunderstorms

In all likelihood, Ellie will become more confident in puppy class, learn that other dogs are not a threat to her, and can be a lot of fun, a message that she will carry with her into adult hood. We socialize our young dogs with other dogs so that they learn how to be dogs, how to be socially appropriate with other dogs, learn to understand dog body language, ('come and play' or 'go away'/give some space) and how to respond appropriately to it, so that they can learn bite inhibition from their own kind, (the best teacher a dog can have is another dog). So that in the future our dogs can feel confident in the real world where they will encounter other dogs, it is a tough life, living in fear of one's own kind, takes a lot of work and a lot of time to change how a dog fearful dog feels about other dogs, (been down that road too, with my rescue dog)- attending well run puppy classes are the first step in preventing that from happening.


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## Wicky (Aug 27, 2015)

You didn’t mention how old the other dogs are did you? I presume if it is puppy kindergarten there is some kind of upper age limit? Also how many puppies are we talking about? Did you ask how/under what circumstances the trainer would intervene in the play? If the play is a complete free for all with many puppies I would not be keen in taking part. If there are a small number of puppies such as 4 to 6 dogs with enough trainers/assistants to monitor the room and the groups that form, and the trainer is explaining the body language and actions of all the puppies and managing it So that it is supporting the development of appropriate interaction maybe it is ok. Is this taking place at the end of class in the same training room?


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## Zeke1 (Nov 20, 2015)

Wicky said:


> You didn’t mention how old the other dogs are did you? I presume if it is puppy kindergarten there is some kind of upper age limit? Also how many puppies are we talking about? Did you ask how/under what circumstances the trainer would intervene in the play? If the play is a complete free for all with many puppies I would not be keen in taking part. If there are a small number of puppies such as 4 to 6 dogs with enough trainers/assistants to monitor the room and the groups that form, and the trainer is explaining the body language and actions of all the puppies and managing it So that it is supporting the development of appropriate interaction maybe it is ok. Is this taking place at the end of class in the same training room?




This puppy kindergarten class is for10 weeks to five months old I’m trying to think how many dogs total were there during the off leash play, I would say approximately 10-and they are not broken down by energy level etc. it’s a free-for-all and the trainer says don’t worry they will adjust. We are going again tonight for our second night I will see how it goes. The 5 to 10 minutes of socializing off leash is done at the very end of the class.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

I think there's a difference between a puppy who's a bit unsure and slightly out of his comfort zone, and one that is being bullied by larger/older/more assertive dogs. First and foremost, it's your job to protect him and to ensure his early experiences are positive ones. If he were mine, I probably would have brought him up on my lap and let him observe the "fun" until he got a bit more confident - especially in the first class. You might have found that once he watched and understood the "game," and knew you'd protect him if he felt overwhelmed, then he might have been brave enough to enter the fray, even if he still felt the need to retreat to the safety of your chair or lap now and then. With time, and assuming you and the instructor never let him actually be hurt by one of the other dogs, I suspect he'd be more willing to venture out and participate.

Keep in mind that if he doesn't like the situation, his current options are "flight" or "fight." If you make flight impossible, you might find he chooses fight instead, and you could end up with a bully-dog yourself.

I think I'd probably speak to the instructor about setting up an ex-pen or separate area where my pup could play with one or two puppies of a similar age/size/play style. If that's not possible, then maybe your puppy could have separate play time (again, with one or two more compatible puppies) either for a few minutes at the end of the "free for all", or at the end of class if there's time. Or maybe if you want to encourage a bit more bravery, you could set up an ex-pen around your chair so he doesn't have to actively "hide" or cower on your lap, but he's safe from other puppies invading his space.

I understand the point your instructor and others are making about "he needs to figure it out," but to me that's the same philosophy as teaching your kids to swim by throwing them in the pool, or not intervening if your toddler is being bullied on the playground. When they're this young, you want them above all to feel you've got their backs!

If your instructor sticks to his guns and insists on not making any accommodations for your wallflower, I'd personally look for another option.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

If it were me and my pup - I would put my foot down so hard it'd go through the floor about a free for all. 

As it is, I'd bring a crate or hold my pup in my lap until the other people collect their dogs - and I'd arrange with other people with pups my dog's OK with to play separately. Before or after class. 

Should add here - even with my OWN dogs, I don't plan to turn them all out together until my pup is bigger. 

Right now we have a 12 month old St. Bernard, 12 month old rough collie.... in addition to my Bertie and Jacks. The two "puppies" are not going to go out playing with my pup. They will get to meet him on leash, but turning them all loose together would be asking for an injury. The St. Bernard is an angel who thinks he's a golden retriever.... but he also doesn't know his own size (130# and 30" at the shoulders). He knocked ME over recently while zooming. 

Even Bertie will only get turned loose with the pup on a very careful/cautious approach, because he plays very rough (a lot of pouncing/boxing). The rough collie is similar - he moves very fast and does a lot of pouncing/boxing and doesn't know his own size. 

Literally only my Jacks will be turned loose with the pup without any precautions.


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## Zeke1 (Nov 20, 2015)

pawsnpaca said:


> I think there's a difference between a puppy who's a bit unsure and slightly out of his comfort zone, and one that is being bullied by larger/older/more assertive dogs. First and foremost, it's your job to protect him and to ensure his early experiences are positive ones. If he were mine, I probably would have brought him up on my lap and let him observe the "fun" until he got a bit more confident - especially in the first class. You might have found that once he watched and understood the "game," and knew you'd protect him if he felt overwhelmed, then he might have been brave enough to enter the fray, even if he still felt the need to retreat to the safety of your chair or lap now and then. With time, and assuming you and the instructor never let him actually be hurt by one of the other dogs, I suspect he'd be more willing to venture out and participate.
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Yes every time me and my son went over to just reassure her from a distance to say it’s OK he told us to get away from her and not to baby her and let her observe from a distance herself she will eventually get it. He says it’s “like after your mom leaves you the first day kindergarten where you’re standing in line to go to your class and you’re crying looking for your mommy eventually everything turns out to be OK”


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## Zeke1 (Nov 20, 2015)

pawsnpaca said:


> I think there's a difference between a puppy who's a bit unsure and slightly out of his comfort zone, and one that is being bullied by larger/older/more assertive dogs. First and foremost, it's your job to protect him and to ensure his early experiences are positive ones. If he were mine, I probably would have brought him up on my lap and let him observe the "fun" until he got a bit more confident - especially in the first class. You might have found that once he watched and understood the "game," and knew you'd protect him if he felt overwhelmed, then he might have been brave enough to enter the fray, even if he still felt the need to retreat to the safety of your chair or lap now and then. With time, and assuming you and the instructor never let him actually be hurt by one of the other dogs, I suspect he'd be more willing to venture out and participate.
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Also the dogs were pretty energetic. But they were not aggressive they kept just trying to come over maybe two or three of them only come over to really smell her as she cowered under the chair. But they quickly left but she still was afraid even when dogs are not coming over to her at all. Otherwise she is not a fearful dog at any time with us at home.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I'm with Ceegee... major difference in confidence levels of 10 wk and 5 months! And would never let them off leash. Free time should be associated with training not a free for all. If the trainer isn't willing to have more control of the class I would cut my losses and find another class.


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## Wicky (Aug 27, 2015)

Zeke1 said:


> This puppy kindergarten class is for10 weeks to five months old I’m trying to think how many dogs total were there during the off leash play, I would say approximately 10-and they are not broken down by energy level etc. it’s a free-for-all and the trainer says don’t worry they will adjust. We are going again tonight for our second night I will see how it goes. The 5 to 10 minutes of socializing off leash is done at the very end of the class.
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> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As others have said I would hold her until she gains confidence - that is quite an age range and number of puppies for a free for all. You don’t want to coddle her in a way that suggests to her that there is something to worry about but keeping her in your arms or near you in a calm matter of fact kind of way that tells the pup everything is as it should be. At our club we would never have the puppies socialisaing in the training room like that. Sometimes 2 or 3 may be let off in the garden area after class but that would be it. She will gain confidence but you certainly don’t want her bullied by an over the top 5 month old. If the other pups were coming up to her to investigate and then left her alone when she didn’t engage she was probably ok.
Let us know how it goes tonight.


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## Zeke1 (Nov 20, 2015)

Wicky said:


> As others have said I would hold her until she gains confidence - that is quite an age range and number of puppies for a free for all. You don’t want to coddle her in a way that suggests to her that there is something to worry about but keeping her in your arms or near you in a calm matter of fact kind of way that tells the pup everything is as it should be. At our club we would never have the puppies socialisaing in the training room like that. Sometimes 2 or 3 may be let off in the garden area after class but that would be it. She will gain confidence but you certainly don’t want her bullied by an over the top 5 month old. If the other pups were coming up to her to investigate and then left her alone when she didn’t engage she was probably ok.
> 
> Let us know how it goes tonight.




Will do thank u [emoji8] 


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## Zeke1 (Nov 20, 2015)

Zeke1 said:


> Will do thank u [emoji8]
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> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Ellie did GREAT tonight!!!! Cld be cause there were only four vs ten dogs lol.. she actually went and approached some dogs n was more comfortable when two larger ones came to check her out!!! Yay (whew[emoji28])


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Good to hear Ellie was feeling much better about the puppy class tonight. Sometimes that is what they need, a smaller group, less noisy, less over whelming!


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## Zeke1 (Nov 20, 2015)

Charliethree said:


> Good to hear Ellie was feeling much better about the puppy class tonight. Sometimes that is what they need, a smaller group, less noisy, less over whelming!




Yes thank u [emoji8] -what a relief- hopefully this helps her transition into a larger class next week[emoji5][emoji5][emoji8][emoji8][emoji8]❤[emoji177]


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## Wicky (Aug 27, 2015)

Zeke1 said:


> Ellie did GREAT tonight!!!! Cld be cause there were only four vs ten dogs lol.. she actually went and approached some dogs n was more comfortable when two larger ones came to check her out!!! Yay (whew[emoji28])
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That’s great that it was a good experience! Smaller groups definitely help.

The one bit of advice i would give is to always remember it is ok to say no to a trainer or question them If you are ever uncomfortable with something. You may not always be right but you are your pups advocate at the end of the day. If a trainer just throws the fact back in your face that they know more or have more experience is that helping you learn? A good trainer would take the time to explain it/talk it through with you and give you the opportunity to explain your issue. I have trainers with 20+ years experience that I would leave my dog with when I travel in a heartbeat and I have had trainers with 20+ years experience who’s approach traumatised my dog.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Wicky said:


> That’s great that it was a good experience! Smaller groups definitely help.
> 
> The one bit of advice i would give is to always remember it is ok to say no to a trainer or question them If you are ever uncomfortable with something. You may not always be right but you are your pups advocate at the end of the day. If a trainer just throws the fact back in your face that they know more or have more experience is that helping you learn? A good trainer would take the time to explain it/talk it through with you and give you the opportunity to explain your issue. I have trainers with 20+ years experience that I would leave my dog with when I travel in a heartbeat and I have had trainers with 20+ years experience who’s approach traumatised my dog.



Totally agree with this. We and our dogs are the ones who have to live with the consequences of the advice given by someone who we perceive as a professional trainer. No denying that 'experience' is a good teacher, but there also comes a time when 'I have always done it that way' no longer applies, nor is in the best interests of our dogs to refrain from questioning if something doesn't feel right to us. Trust your gut, and advocate for you pup.


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## Our3dogs (Apr 3, 2008)

Great to hear Ellie did better with the smaller group. If she gets a bit overwhelmed with a larger group next week, just let her play for a bit and then perhaps sit on the floor with her and let her just watch and talk to her in a cheerful voice. Totally agree with what was said above - yes, you can say "no" to the trainer. Ultimately we have the final say with our pups and we want them to know we are there for them. But good to see you made progress.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

It's quite unnatural for a group of strange dogs to be in a room together with their nervous and emotionally charged owners. I might be on board with this type of socialization if there were a small number of puppies and things to do. Like woods to play in, obstacles, etc. but when it's just puppies and more puppies, all they have is each other. There is a reason why many people, when they want their dogs to meet, will get together for a walk in the woods. It's way more natural. And, it's overwhelming for some pups. You don't know these puppies, their owners, etc. The best social experience is with known dogs/puppies in a natural setting.


You can bypass the puppy social hour and still do puppy-k. You can see if the puppy is OK just being on your lap and watching and then when she wants down, put her down. If she just wants to watch and acclimate, that's OK, too. If the other puppies will jump on you to get to her, then this might not work, or perhaps you can sit with her in an ex-pen.


I'll be going to puppy-k with my puppy so that he can get used to training with other pups around. I will not be partaking in social time and have let the trainer know. We'll just leave the room or the building during that time or go to a different part of the room if there is a barrier. The trainer was OK with that.


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