# Breeders who don't answer emails.



## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I think it's time to give breeders a break and take some personal responsibility. That sounds like a rant, I suppose. Let me explain.

People here complain all the time about breeders not being responsive to emails sent or voicemails left. I've always prided myself for being friendly and responsive and timely to every inquiry. But with the ongoing COVID-19 puppy rush, breeders get very weary from all the contacts, especially when they don't have puppies and they have nothing good to say to the potential buyer.

Today I received the following email:



> Hi I was inquiring about any upcoming litters you may have


This person didn't even bother to tell me his/her name, or to even make the minimal effort of using punctuation. They didn't tell me anything about their situation, or what they were looking for. They didn't ask a question (e.g., "When will you have your next litter?"). They didn't provide any information. Just those 11 words.

Why the heck should I take the time to respond to that? Seriously, what would be the point? I won't have puppies available for at least a year, the person made zero effort to engage me, and I'm just expected to jump through that little hoop of responding to an essentially empty email just because they thoughtlessly decided to impose a tiny bit on my day? What would I even say to this person?

And yet if I don't respond, this is just the kind of person who might come here to complain about it.

Take some responsibility, folks. Make an effort. Engage the breeder. Give them a reason to _want_ to respond to you.

I've always prided myself in responding in a timely fashion to every single puppy inquiry I get. As someone who thinks of herself as an ambassador for the breed, I feel it's my responsibility. But this email might break that streak. This one I might not respond to. Or maybe I'll respond with something snarky. I dunno. But I don't even have the faintest idea how to answer this one.

I also receive a gazillion emails that read just like this one:



> I'm writing you to inquire about your dogs. My wife and I are finally in a position time wise and financially that we believe we can commit to and welcome a puppy into our family. We have thoroughly deliberated and researched these past 2 years and concluded that a golden retriever would be the ideal dog breed for us. We are both family oriented people and a kind and friendly temperament is very important. We are also active and would both like a running or hiking partner to keep us company. Another trait we value is intelligence and obedience.
> 
> We would like to know if you are planing on any future litters in spring or early summer 2021? And if you don't mind us asking, what the price for a puppy from you is?


Now, there is nothing at all wrong with this email. Indeed, it is polite and tries to offer actual information. And we did respond saying we wouldn't have a puppy for them until 2022, and this person was very gracious in response to that. I really appreciate efforts like that. (I hope this person doesn't mind that I'm using their email as an example.) But even this is a generic effort. We get so many emails that sound exactly like this, I could post a hundred of them. 

All I can say is, try to be noticed in a good way. Try to set yourself apart. We don't have any upcoming litters, but if we did this email would not have stood out. Some breeders won't respond to this email, and I'll bet my bottom dollar that folks who send this email copy and paste it to a dozen other breeders.

It's so competitive. Breeders are so overwhelmed. There is such a shortage of puppies. Is it really any wonder breeders are becoming less responsive? If you want to get noticed, you have to stand out from the crowd. Otherwise, you'll just get lost in the sea of generic inquiries.

Someone should do a workshop for puppy buyers in the covid era. Maybe I will. Meanwhile, I have to figure out whether I'm going to bother responding to that first email, and if so, what in the world I would say. "Thanks for letting me know," comes to mind. 

Good luck. It's a jungle out there.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Somebody on FB complained the other day when they inquired about how much a puppy investment would be and introduced themselves and the breeder replied with “We won’t have puppies until 2022” talking about how it was disturbing that a breeder could be so rude.

I was like, if you get hundreds of emails a day all basically asking the same thing, what would you do? Good lord. People take things too personally.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I wouldn't have considered that response rude. I've been responding similarly because I am getting 3-4 inquiries a day. I won't have puppies for 2 years, I'm not taking a waiting list and I don't know of anyone who has available puppies. I'm just trying not to waste people's time, but I also like to respond to every email. I do try to tell people that I'll share more information about my 2022 breeding plan if they'd like but so far, no one has taken me up on the offer.


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## Bragan (Nov 17, 2020)

I completely understand the frustration you are sharing. I can imagine you are inundated with inquiries and it becomes very time consuming. 

I am currently looking for a breeder and sending messages of the like. When I send inquiries I often wonder what information a breeder wants to hear about. Would you be so kind as to share what type of information would be beneficial and what questions are appropriate? I would greatly appreciate your insight!!


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Dana, could I borrow your post (with credit) to post in a fb group I help manage? We've gotten MANY members complaining saying "None of the breeders on the approved breeder lists will answer me! Can someone refer me to a breeder who actually has puppies available or a breeding coming up!?" and your post would be a great perspective to share for buyers who literally have no idea what they are doing wrong.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

DanaRuns said:


> I think it's time to give breeders a break and take some personal responsibility. That sounds like a rant, I suppose. Let me explain.
> 
> People here complain all the time about breeders not being responsive to emails sent or voicemails left. I've always prided myself for being friendly and responsive and timely to every inquiry. But with the ongoing COVID-19 puppy rush, breeders get very weary from all the contacts, especially when they don't have puppies and they have nothing good to say to the potential buyer.


LOL! I'm working up a post on this topic, strictly from the "consumer perspective", but I'm holding off until I get a few more pieces of information (don't want to shoot my mouth off and then have to eat my words ).

You have said, and I agree, that you are a _*hobby*_ breeder, not a business. The problem is, on the other-side-of-that-fence, are the puppy buyers whose attitude is "_I'm a consumer, so you must be a business_". Add into that a fair amount of Twitter-ization of correspondence (no punctuation, no capitalization, no salutations, and AETH ("abbreviate everything to heck")), and the result is...just what you're talking about. We have devolved to a society of drive-by communications, and are poorer for it. But, I digress...

I am not (most definitely "*not*", no? 🤣) a golden retriever hobbyist. But, if I were, and if I were also a hobby breeder, and if I had to deal with tons of emails and had more people who wanted my future puppies than I will ever have puppies (anyone care to run that last through a grammar check?), I would...

_*Plan A*_
The heck with what people think of me. Those who know me by reputation will take the time to reach out. Everyone else wants me to act like a business, and I don't have the time to answer everyone's drive-bys - especially when I don't have any puppies, and especially when the time required for a considerate response is far greater than the time/effort put into the original email (which was likely spammed, using Bcc (which is what I would do), to every breeder in the area).. So, it'd be a huge screening process, and the black-hole-of-information for any email that doesn't put out enough effort to make me care.

*Plan B*
As a somewhat-helpful-step, I'd have a stock reply for any email that I would normally choose to consign to the black-hole-of-information. In it, I'd include a list of questions that I would believe most hobby breeders, or at least myself, would want to see addressed (beyond the "you'se got any puppies?"). Of course, I'd be sure to make the intro to that email reads "no puppies until 20XX". otherwise some self-entitled numb-nut is going to get bent out of shape when they take "all that time" to respond to the questions...and then don't get their choice of puppy.

For what it's worth (I tried to do a "FWIW", but couldn't bring myself to do it), I believe you are seeing one expression of today's drive-by culture. It's even worse when some folks take the "the customer's always right" nonsense to an extreme. C'est la vie. You have puppies to attend to, who has time for emails?! 😁


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Emmdenn said:


> We've gotten MANY members complaining saying "None of the breeders on the approved breeder lists will answer me! Can someone refer me to a breeder who actually has puppies available or a breeding coming up!?" and your post would be a great perspective to share for buyers who literally have no idea what they are doing wrong.


I think there are some important things to unpack in these statements.

I have seen it posted, and, now that we have Kona I am inclined to agree, that one should be "shopping for breeders" vice "shopping for puppies". But, us consumers tend to not start shopping until we have a need. And? Most of us don't recognize that we have a "need" to find a good breeder. And, that thought starts to collapse on itself when one adds in the concept that "finding the right breeder" doesn't mean getting dibs on the next litter (whenever that may be).

While I'll avoid the "instant gratification" blargh, I will readily acknowledge that most consumers don't "_get serious_" about looking until we actually want/need whatever it is we're looking for (ergo, the "_who actually has..._" statement). And, that cuts to what I believe is the heart of the issue. While some folks are just being too lazy in their efforts, the real thing that most are "_doing wrong_" is acting like a "_typical consumer_" in a "_typical consumer transaction_". There is an expectation that well-bred puppies are always available. If not at _*this*_ breeder, then the next one. And, when dealing with hobby breeders, that's, quite often, just not the case.

If I were doing this whole thing over (and, I may), my first series of questions would be about the breeder. What are their goals? What do they believe is important in their line? What are their expectations of potential puppy buyers? And, any information I provided would be along the lines of anticipating what a conscientious breeder may want to know (what are my plans for the puppy, will I be getting pet insurance, do I have an area for them to exercise, how much time will I be able to spend with them, what other pets/people will be involved, etc.).

The absolute last things I'd ask? "Do you have any puppies, now or in the near future?" and "How much?". My assumption is, if the breeder has availability and likes what they see in my questions/information, they'll volunteer their availability and pricing. If not, I've just shifted the focus of the conversation onto topics that will, most likely, not win me any points in the "hmmm, this sounds like a good candidate" sweepstakes.


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## ewokzzz (Aug 31, 2020)

You raise some valid points.
This dance between the prospective buyer and the breeder is a two way street and responsibility lies on both parties to be thorough and polite.

I believe that your pride and desire to try and politely respond to every inquiry is actually not the norm - at least, these days it isn't. It's understandable that you'd get frustrated with people on this forum complaining about breeders who don't reply, when from your point of view, you act as a steward and you try and reply, even though most of them don't put forth effort to begin with. With that said I would not blame you for ignoring the inquiries that clearly put in zero effort. 
It's worth mentioning that the breeders who frequent this forum more actively tend to be the types who really take that stewardship to heart. So the people on this forum are not necessarily an accurate representation of the entire space as a whole (that goes for breeders, and also buyers).

But by that same token, it's understandable for a prospective puppy owner to get frustrated by the process of putting in a lot of effort and still rarely if ever getting a response - not even just a copy-pasted one.
For what it is worth, I have sent out numerous emails that read like full essays, talking about my dog experience, my lifestyle, my future plans, etc, and with attached letters of recommendation from my veterinarian and long-time landlord - and I always acknowledge that the breeders are overwhelmed and that I respect their time and thank them for their consideration - and usually I say I am willing to wait many months to get a dog. Still, more often than not, I never get a response. The complaints and frustration are not without merit. The world is crazy right now and people are dealing with a lot, and for a breeder to not want to deal with an overflowing inbox is a totally valid emotion. It's also valid to be frustrated by continually being ignored. So basically, I don't _blame_ the breeders who don't respond- but I _am_ justifiably frustrated by it, and I don't think the lack of responses is a result of a lack of effort on my part. This is only my personal experience - I know there are many out there who, indeed, don't put in enough effort. 

I've said this before - I really do think it's a numbers game and not just a matter of having a competitive edge with regard to inquiry quality, and I say that because once I began considering other breeds and inquiring with those breeders - I almost always got responses back from them. I think the golden breeders are just overwhelmed because the breed is so popular. I think that the "covid puppy" purchaser is quick to choose a golden, as opposed to a lesser known or common breed and that is ultimately the reason for this.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think that sometimes breeders and buyers overthink the whole writing etiquette process.... 

What about how you talk face to face with a prospective puppy buyer? 

How about suggesting people give a call so you can chat on the phone a little? 

My Bertie - I emailed the puppy referral... and she provided contact information for both breeders. I spoke on the phone to both breeders prior to going out to visit the puppies, and as it turns out brought my Bertie home. Same thing with all the prior dogs. Heck, one of dogs who lived to be almost 14.... his breeder maintained regular contact with us all those years with chatting over the phone whenever we had questions or worries. Yes, that was before people really did too much online and not everyone had emails even... but talking to breeders directly meant direct answers vs doing what people do now (sending emails out to every breeder in the whole wide world asking if they have puppies and how much).

With Bertie getting the contact information for the breeders, talking to the breeders (both of them), visiting one of the breeders and bringing him home.... it all happened in a week. There was no waiting years...!

Glee and Jovi was slightly different because I already knew their breeder and she's been helping a TON over the years. I went from being completely clueless on a lot of things to just semi clueless. 🤗 But I do know that she talks to prospective buyers on the phone + because she shows her dogs, she's generally easy for them to find and talk to in person. But even she, I reached out to her online (FB) asking for help with grooming and showing. And she was and is a godsend. 

Very first time I knew of her or saw her dogs in person - it was at the big benched show at Cobo here in Michigan... before the club left Detroit. I was standing by checking out who was showing and met a woman who was tickled pink about getting a puppy from this breeder - and I could really see why. They were all very soft fluffy sweet things.  And both this breeder and her mom were very accessible and nice to everyone. That was my very first impression of this breeder and that's going back way back to when I was a teenager and my dad or oldest sister was bringing me to shows. So I knew who she was years before I reached out to her for help. 

It's greatly different from what I see and hear now. 

You've got more yuppies looking for dogs now and yeah - many of them are insufferable.  But I think if your primary way of shopping for a puppy is surfing online and sending messages or emails. The breeders themselves are sitting around at home more (especially with covid) and when they aren't backbiting other breeders in their area or bickering about politics on social media, they are griping about being inundated by people who quite frankly sound like nightmare homes. 

Anything that sounds like a "startup home business".... 

Anything that talks a good plan about a service dog that according to some of their expectations resembles that robot maid from the Jetsons more than an actual dog. 

Anything that sounds like people who decided that goldens are an ideal breed because of their reputation for being easy to train and easy to live with. And it's possible they got their inspiration and ideas from watching Full House or Punky Brewster while growing up. 

^^^^ In summary, what I kinda suggest is people get out of their houses more or get on the phone more. Don't hide behind an email conversation which is going to make you look bad for one reason or another. And don't short cut anything you do in life. 

If you want to get a dog - first really spend time learning about dogs. They are not furry human beings. Nor are they feral animals. Obviously, with everything at our fingertips now - you don't have to go to Barnes and Noble and spend $$$$$ on books that may or may not answer all your questions. But there are certain books that are worthwhile getting - especially if you have kids. Rather than raise your kids on pictures of princesses and whatnot.... raise them on pictures of dog breeds and teach them while you learn.

There's so many dog breeds that are completely wonderful. That even includes breeds like labs where people think they know everything - but it's a very big world. 

I was at a handling class tonight and completely LOVED all over a fellow trainer's black labs. These were show labs, so very different from what people think of as labs. Just very soft, quiet, serious, and steady. The trainer had a 4 month old puppy and an adult dog in the class. Both dogs were perfect just demonstrated steadiness and trainability - of the kind that you do not see in badly bred labs. I've seen working bred labs who are uncontrollable if they don't have a zap collar on. That's not trainability... But I'm going off on a tangent. 

I think the biggest issues that the dog world has right now with breeders and buyers... it's the fact that everyone is trying to shortcut everything and half (insert word that ends with -ing) everything they do as far as dogs. My opinion.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Calling might be an option for some breeders but not all. I personally do not have my phone number anywhere public for a reason. I work a 9 to 5 because I am a regular person on top of being a crazy Golden enthusiast. I don’t want to come home to even more work by having my phone ringing or having to reply to do call backs. My mentor has stopped counting her COVID email/message inquiries at 5000. If those were calls that lasted just 5 minutes a piece, that would be over 400 hours of calls. Averaged out that would be over a standard work week on the phone each month since COVID. So many of my breeder friends are already removing their contact information from websites because they do not expect litters for a while or have overflow lists and can’t handle the firehose of inquiries. 

I love the idea of meeting face to face but in the COVID world that is also not really an option. In my area we are about to have our second AKC show since COVID. None of these shows are allowing spectator at all. I am usually the first person to post on social media the location, ring times and if there are any fees (entry or parking) but right now I don’t. I know that people who make the physical attempt by visiting shows do get noticed. Whether that is good or bad depends on the spectators, but they do get my attention. Hopefully we will see spectator options in the future but with COVID spiking and clubs constantly worried about financial losses for shows being canceled by government or site mandates, no one is going to want to increase risk by allowing spectators.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Emmdenn said:


> Dana, could I borrow your post (with credit) to post in a fb group I help manage? We've gotten MANY members complaining saying "None of the breeders on the approved breeder lists will answer me! Can someone refer me to a breeder who actually has puppies available or a breeding coming up!?" and your post would be a great perspective to share for buyers who literally have no idea what they are doing wrong.


Of course. Go for it.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

LJack said:


> Calling might be an option for some breeders but not all. I personally do not have my phone number anywhere public for a reason. I work a 9 to 5 because I am a regular person on top of being a crazy Golden enthusiast. I don’t want to come home to even more work by having my phone ringing or having to reply to do call backs. My mentor has stopped counting her COVID email/message inquiries at 5000. If those were calls that lasted just 5 minutes a piece, that would be over 400 hours of calls. Averaged out that would be over a standard work week on the phone each month since COVID. So many of my breeder friends are already removing their contact information from websites because they do not expect litters for a while or have overflow lists and can’t handle the firehose of inquiries.
> 
> I love the idea of meeting face to face but in the COVID world that is also not really an option. In my area we are about to have our second AKC show since COVID. None of these shows are allowing spectator at all. I am usually the first person to post on social media the location, ring times and if there are any fees (entry or parking) but right now I don’t. I know that people who make the physical attempt by visiting shows do get noticed. Whether that is good or bad depends on the spectators, but they do get my attention. Hopefully we will see spectator options in the future but with COVID spiking and clubs constantly worried about financial losses for shows being canceled by government or site mandates, no one is going to want to increase risk by allowing spectators.


I just went to my first trials for obedience/agility as a volunteer. Our local club has been shut down tight and it was the first show. I really want to be involved and it has been impossible up until now. I just happened to visit the site and noticed they were having an event, so I signed up to be a volunteer. That worked great because I ended up meeting the club president and now I'm starting private lessons with him next week so Logan and I can participate in the future.

I don't recall if I talked to my breeder by phone or not, but we had tons of communication -- enough that I was fully satisfied and I was certainly given all the information I needed. Once the puppies were born, I received so many videos that kept me smiling. We met in person when I picked my sweet puppy up and the breeder has been available when I have had questions. I ask them via email.


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## ravi87 (Jun 4, 2020)

I recently got a puppy and my experience with most of the breeders was pretty frustrating. I only had couple of good interactions. I really think golden retriever breeder community needs to invest in upgrading their websites. It would help immensely if I could find out on the website what the breeding plans are , what the wait list looks like, information about potential sire and dams. Lastly, there should be an automated way of adding yourself to a tentative waitlist. This would probably eliminate major chunk of emails.


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## ewokzzz (Aug 31, 2020)

ravi87 said:


> I recently got a puppy and my experience with most of the breeders was pretty frustrating. I only had couple of good interactions. I really think golden retriever breeder community needs to invest in upgrading their websites. It would help immensely if I could find out on the website what the breeding plans are , what the wait list looks like, information about potential sire and dams. Lastly, there should be an automated way of adding yourself to a tentative waitlist. This would probably eliminate major chunk of emails.


Well, the breeders generally try to vet you before even considering adding you to a waitlist. Automatically adding a name to their list is certainly not something most of them want to do. And even if they did do something like this, they'd run into the problem of people who sign up, forget, and find a dog elsewhere. So now the onus is on the breeder to go down the list and contact each person themselves to see if they are still interested. Not gonna happen.

Your post is definitely proves SoCal right, about how most prospective puppy owners view this as a purely commercial transactional thing, but the breeders view it totally differently. I do see some merit to your point that if more information was readily available, the breeders might not get as many emails asking about certain things. The websites that clearly say "no puppies until early 2022, not accepting waitlist spots any more as of [insert date]" are helpful and prudent. 

It's interesting though because as much as the breeders claim to be overwhelmed - they also desire the puppy owners who ask them a lot of questions in order to be thorough, the ones who get engaged and invested in the process. As a puppy seeker, you need to really hit that goldilocks zone where you are diligent but not obnoxious. 

As for them upgrading their websites overall, I somewhat agree, but I also understand why they wouldn't. Especially if they already have plenty of people trying to get in touch with them, what's the need? And at the end of the day, if they are already overwhelmed with inquiries, they won't see the need to spruce up their web presence, something that could potentially be expensive and time-consuming. 

But some of the websites are definitely cringe-worthy and not representative of the quality of the breeding program. That's true. As a person with webdev skills, I have considered reaching out - perhaps to offer a barter? The price for a website is similar to the price of a well-bred puppy, after all, and seems like it would be a win-win. But I fear the breeders might take it the wrong way, so I've never followed through with it. What to me is a fun barter idea, to them might be seen an offensive proposition. I am learning to be ever delicate with breeders - they can be a somewhat sensitive bunch (as is true with any passionate group), and I am at their mercy if I ever want a puppy, so I don't take that risk.

As for the talk of calling them on the phone - it's really not that simple. Those that do list a number, they never answer, the mailbox is always full. Most of the time the number goes immediately to a pre-recorded message.
Think about it - breeders are already overwhelmed with strangers trying to contact them. You really think they are likely to put their personal phone out there and suggest people call them for a chat?

It's truly not as easy as "just call them and be personable", or, "just write a long-enough inquiry".


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Anyone want to volunteer to update and maintain my website?  It sucks. I know it does. But maintaining it is so far down my list of things I need to do, and I am so lacking in the skills needed to do it, I just never get to it. Every update is frustrating, takes forever, and requires me relearning the most basic things about publishing web pages. So, it doesn't get done. Someone to volunteer to keep it updated would be great. I have a TON of updating and improvements that need to be made, starting with adding about a dozen dogs to it and several pages I've been meaning to add, and you'll have to continue regular updates for the foreseeable future, and especially every time a dog wins a championship, I'm about to have a breeding, or whenever I have a litter and puppy cam. But it might help puppy buyers (which I have way too many of, anyway), so I'd really appreciate it. 



ewokzzz said:


> It's interesting though because as much as the breeders claim to be overwhelmed - they also desire the puppy owners who ask them a lot of questions in order to be thorough, the ones who get engaged and invested in the process. As a puppy seeker, you need to really hit that goldilocks zone where you are diligent but not obnoxious.


Boy, you nailed the dilemma perfectly. It's a no-win situation, almost. Especially these days. Yeah, not only to you need to hit that goldilocks zone, but that zone is different for every breeder. There are no easy answers, unfortunately.

And since -- and I cannot say this often or loudly enough -- _we are not a "business" and don't need "customers,"_ the will to provide a convenient and seamless consumer experience just isn't that strong or a big priority for most hobby breeders.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

ravi87 said:


> I recently got a puppy and my experience with most of the breeders was pretty frustrating. I only had couple of good interactions. I really think golden retriever breeder community needs to invest in upgrading their websites. It would help immensely if I could find out on the website what the breeding plans are , what the wait list looks like, information about potential sire and dams. Lastly, there should be an automated way of adding yourself to a tentative waitlist. This would probably eliminate major chunk of emails.


Yeah, I understand the frustration. But you are just never going to be able to shop for a puppy online.

I'm not a business. I don't have customers. Breeding plans are always fluid. I have 150 people on my wait list, I don't need any more. And I don't add anyone to the wait list without vetting them first, and that's a lot of work. There's no such thing as a potential sire. We either have an agreement to use a stud for a particular girl, or we don't. And it either works out or it doesn't. And if it works out, it may take, or it may not. I don't advertise studs I'd like to use or that I'm thinking of using, because that's not fair to the owners of those studs or to the buyers who may count on it. When I have a breeding that takes, I proudly let people know.

You will _never_ find a reputable breeder that would add you to a wait list in an automated way.

Please understand that we don't really care about you, the buyer. I don't mean that how it sounds. It's just that you're not what this is about. It's about the puppies, not the buyers. We're not in the business of selling puppies. We don't even make puppies for you. We make them for ourselves, and to better and preserve the breed. But we can't keep them all, and we have to sell the puppies that we don't keep. And boy, we have _way_ more people who want puppies than we have puppies. And most of those people think it's all about them. It's not. We care about the puppies a tremendous amount. More than you know. Breeding is not for the faint of heart. The puppies are everything. We are responsible for bringing these little souls into the world. It is a heavy burden. If we inadvertently send puppies someplace where they are mistreated, or neglected, or unloved, then we have done a great evil, and it will haunt us to our graves. We care about you only insofar as we are trying to give each puppy that we bring into the world the best possible life. If you are the person who can do that, then we care about you doing that. And we want to make you happy only insofar as you being happy with the puppy gives the puppy a better life.

I just experienced what this is all about. A breeder of one breed had a dam that lost her two puppies. At the same time, another breeder of a different breed, in a different state, had a dam that died on the operating table during her C-section, leaving six orphaned puppies. That second breeder was in an emergency situation, with her orphaned litter. The dog breeding community came together instantly to help that litter, and created a little miracle. On a moment's notice, the first breeder, with the dam who lost her puppies, drove her dog 16 hours to a different state and lent that dog to someone she had never met before. She left her dog there for two months, with a stranger. One grieving heart reached out to another grieving heart to match the mother who lost her puppies to the puppies who lost their mother. And that dam stayed with the second breeder and her orphaned litter for 8 weeks, nursing the litter, weaning the litter, training the litter, and socializing the litter, as if it were her own. The orphaned puppies survived and thrived, and the dam who lost her puppies got to be the mother she was meant to be. The breeder community came together, first in tears of grief and then in tears of joy and love. That was all done by breeders who didn't even know each other, because the most important thing -- the _only_ important thing -- is the well-being of our puppies and dogs that we bring into this world. That's what it's about. That's the end of the story. The buyers just came in for the last six words of the story: "...and they lived happily ever after." See? The buyers aren't even mentioned in the story. They are just giving breath to the "happily ever after" part.

Sorry it's not how you want it to be. I understand the frustration. It's just not what you think it is. You see a business transaction, and we see a fraught adoption of the precious souls to whom we give so much of our own souls, but eventually have to say good-bye to, and desperately hope that we have done everything we can to give each puppy the biggest little life any dog ever had. If you end up being the end of that process, well, you probably have no idea what a huge honor that is. And that's okay, because all that matters is that you give your puppy the very best life it can have. That's your responsibility now. Never forget that. You have no idea what went into you getting that puppy.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Love, love, love that Dana! 
I wanted to reply to the post but was on my phone last night and I can't dictate succinctly. I'm glad you did.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

DanaRuns said:


> Sorry it's not how you want it to be. I understand the frustration. It's just not what you think it is. You see a business transaction, and we see a fraught adoption of the precious souls to whom we give so much of our own souls, but eventually have to say good-bye to, and desperately hope that we have done everything we can to give each puppy the biggest little life any dog ever had. If you end up being the end of that process, well, you probably have no idea what a huge honor that is. And that's okay, because all that matters is that you give your puppy the very best life it can have. That's your responsibility now. Never forget that. You have no idea what went into you getting that puppy.


Dana, this instantly just became one of my most favourite posts I have ever read on GRF. Thank you for this. This post is going to stay with me forever <3


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## Ontariodogsitter (Feb 23, 2020)

Interesting insight, speaking from a "consumer" point of view, when I settled on a couple of possible breeders, I sent out quick introduction of our family situation, our history with dogs, our plan for the new adition, pictures of the fenced in dog runs and our resident dog.
I was hoping to peek the breeder's interest, but didn't feel they actually owed me an answer, after all I wasn't an invited guest, I just made what equals a "cold call"


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## ravi87 (Jun 4, 2020)

Guys - I am not doubting anyone's integrity or love towards dogs. I am actually a big fan of all you folks , your advice has been so helpful. I am just saying this process is also not easy for people looking to get puppies. I often see posts here belittling buyers because of how an email is composed. Is that fair? Also, what I meant from a wait list is essentially just a list of potential people who are interested. There is no commitment from breeder to sell. It is only a reassurance to people interested that if all conditions are met, they will be considered. I feel it would really help people make informed decisions about what breeders to pursue instead of sending emails to multiple folks.

At the end of day, this is a Sellers market (there are few ethical/reputed breeders but many people who want to get puppies) so there is little motivation to help the other side which is understandable. It helps that we only have to get a puppy once in may be 10-12 years


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I have so many thoughts. 

1. What an excellent post Dana. 

2. While I'm starting my journey to being on the breeder side of this narrative, I was once on the "consumer" side. I really hate that word. I never viewed myself as a consumer, but I did have a hard time getting breeders to contact me back - and this was five years ago. I emailed several with what I thought at the time was a pretty good email. I called, left voicemails, facebook messaged, etc. and nothing. A very well-known field breeder very kindly rejected us, which I am actually thankful for now. A few others never answered. Well technically, one did answer two years later... I even had a referral from a reputable Springer breeder and still nothing. One breeder answered, but didn't have any puppies and her next breeding didn't take. Finally, after several months of searching and disappointment, I straight up cold-called the woman who is now my breeder and she shockingly answered the phone! I was so stunned I almost forgot everything I had thought of to say. Thankfully, she is a gem and we had a great conversation and we were able to get on the list for Rocket's litter. So what I'm getting at is that even in normal times it can be difficult to get on a reputable breeder's list. Stick with it, set yourself apart, let go of your pride and consumer attitude, and hopefully you'll get a puppy. 

3. Now that I am working toward being a breeder, if you send me a one line email, I'm not going to answer. Or if I do, it will be one line (or one word, "no".) in return. I have a day job that can be very demanding, so I don't have time for the "how much?" or "do you have puppies?" bull crap. And being totally honest, known performance and show homes will take preference over pet homes. My bitch is not a slug and I don't intend on breeding her to a slug, so if you want a happy-go-lucky couch potato, my puppies won't be for you. If you put forth the effort to make me want to take you seriously, I will give you every fair shot that you deserve. Because, like Dana and so many others, I am responsible for these little lifes that I'm bringing into the world and I want them to live the best life possible. I will be putting my bitch, whom I love dearly, at risk to produce these precious lives. It is truly an honor to get a puppy from a reputable breeder, don't take it for granted. I never have.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

I found a way to deal with the nonsense. The website is gone as in no more. I simply no longer have the patience to deal with the crap.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Swampcollie said:


> I found a way to deal with the nonsense. The website is gone as in no more. I simply no longer have the patience to deal with the crap.


Was kinda thinking something along those lines the other day too....


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## karinamirella (Oct 3, 2020)

DanaRuns said:


> I think it's time to give breeders a break and take some personal responsibility. That sounds like a rant, I suppose. Let me explain.
> 
> People here complain all the time about breeders not being responsive to emails sent or voicemails left. I've always prided myself for being friendly and responsive and timely to every inquiry. But with the ongoing COVID-19 puppy rush, breeders get very weary from all the contacts, especially when they don't have puppies and they have nothing good to say to the potential buyer.
> 
> ...


This was very informative for me. I am a first time puppy buyer and didn't realize how overwhelming it would be for myself to find a puppy to adopt as well as for breeders to get the kind of emails I send (I am guilty of sending both types of emails and will definitely adjust what I send, I know how overwhelming it must be to be a breeder at this time). Any tips on being a better puppy buyer? I would love and benefit from a workshop  I have only been reaching out to breeders that have been suggested through this forum and ones that I see have at least their 4 core health clearances for their dogs that are being bred. Would you suggest I reach out again to a breeder that never responded to me (probably for the lack of information in my first email) or should I just expect them not to respond to a second email? I'm thankful for people like you that are active in this forum and informative! I'm looking for a breeder in either California or Arizona.


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

I have started posting a lot more info about my dogs on our Facebook page. It's all out there. Links to K9data, which has links to OFA for all of their health information, as much info as I have for COD, etc. The website got overwhelming, and there just isn't enough time in the day to keep it updated right now.


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## Missmcbeth (Mar 16, 2019)

Hello All..I have read through this post with great interest as I am in the process of looking for a golden pup to add to our family. I have no problem with waiting for the perfect pup based on the breeder's knowledge and expertise. 

I do have a question, however, about when it is appropriate to ask the breeder for information about clearances? When they request a deposit? When they communicate that a litter is on the way? I have communicated with a few breeders who I know are reputable thanks to this amazing forum but am unsure when I should ask for this information from them. Some deposits are several hundred dollars so I do want to be an informed buyer but at the same time I want to respect the breeders time.


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## goldielynn (Sep 5, 2020)

Missmcbeth said:


> Hello All..I have read through this post with great interest as I am in the process of looking for a golden pup to add to our family. I have no problem with waiting for the perfect pup based on the breeder's knowledge and expertise.
> 
> I do have a question, however, about when it is appropriate to ask the breeder for information about clearances? When they request a deposit? When they communicate that a litter is on the way? I have communicated with a few breeders who I know are reputable thanks to this amazing forum but am unsure when I should ask for this information from them. Some deposits are several hundred dollars so I do want to be an informed buyer but at the same time I want to respect the breeders time.


I always like to be myself proactive in checking clearances, so that you're usually in the position of asking questions that you can't find the answers to. You can hop onto k9data (K9DATA.COM Home Page) and enter the parents' full AKC kennel name (sometimes partial names will pull up searches if you can't find it on the first initial search). 

Oftentimes, there are links from k9data to OFA where you can check the clearances and all current and prior examinations and their conclusions. On the rare instance that there aren't links, you can go on OFA yourself and do similar searching using the parents' AKC names. I'm sure breeders get the same 5 questions regarding clearances from prospective puppy families all the time so any time you can save them by doing your own hunting and research probably goes a long way, and shows that you know what you're talking about.


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## Missmcbeth (Mar 16, 2019)

goldielynn said:


> I always like to be myself proactive in checking clearances, so that you're usually in the position of asking questions that you can't find the answers to. You can hop onto k9data (K9DATA.COM Home Page) and enter the parents' full AKC kennel name (sometimes partial names will pull up searches if you can't find it on the first initial search).
> 
> Oftentimes, there are links from k9data to OFA where you can check the clearances and all current and prior examinations and their conclusions. On the rare instance that there aren't links, you can go on OFA yourself and do similar searching using the parents' AKC names. I'm sure breeders get the same 5 questions regarding clearances from prospective puppy families all the time so any time you can save them by doing your own hunting and research probably goes a long way, and shows that you know what you're talking about.


Good point.. looks like I have some homework to do! Thanks Goldielynn!


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## Vaskum04 (Feb 8, 2021)

This forum is so rich with information that I spend hours on it to learn and understand the world of golden retrievers. The forum and its contributors really deserve tons of kudos and applause. 

I need a little understanding with regards to breeders evaluating the buyers. I am looking to get a puppy and will be a first time owner. I wrote to several breeders and couple of them responded. I even met a reputable and ethical breeder. My husband and I were excited to meet the breeder and the dogs. At the end of the meeting the breeder asked us to talk over things and get back to them if we decide to take a puppy from the breeder. In a couple of days, I sent the breeder a mail saying we are very interested in taking a puppy. I followed up the mail with a phone call and left a voice mail. I haven't heard back from the breeder if we are included in the waitlist or not. If a breeder does not respond, does it mean that the breeder is not interested in giving the buyer a puppy? What generally is the criteria on which the breeder evaluates the buyer?


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## goldielynn (Sep 5, 2020)

Vaskum04 said:


> This forum is so rich with information that I spend hours on it to learn and understand the world of golden retrievers. The forum and its contributors really deserve tons of kudos and applause.
> 
> I need a little understanding with regards to breeders evaluating the buyers. I am looking to get a puppy and will be a first time owner. I wrote to several breeders and couple of them responded. I even met a reputable and ethical breeder. My husband and I were excited to meet the breeder and the dogs. At the end of the meeting the breeder asked us to talk over things and get back to them if we decide to take a puppy from the breeder. In a couple of days, I sent the breeder a mail saying we are very interested in taking a puppy. I followed up the mail with a phone call and left a voice mail. I haven't heard back from the breeder if we are included in the waitlist or not. If a breeder does not respond, does it mean that the breeder is not interested in giving the buyer a puppy? What generally is the criteria on which the breeder evaluates the buyer?


I know that getting in touch with a breeder can feel a lot like going on first or second dates. Does he/she like me? Did I say something wrong? Do we not have the same values? Why is he/she ghosting me? Am I going to get a puppy?

I've been through all of that. Even until the day that we picked up our puppy, I imagined worst case scenarios of our dream of bringing home a new family member actually not happening. But I would take a deep breath in this situation here. It's been a day or two. Nearly most breeders have full-time jobs that are unrelated to breeding -- life happens when you're making puppies. I would think that if the breeder actually agreed to meet you, you've made it way farther than others, and that's a good sign in of itself.

Is this conversation for some future litter to be determined, or did a breeding with a specific pair already take place?


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Vaskum04 said:


> This forum is so rich with information that I spend hours on it to learn and understand the world of golden retrievers. The forum and its contributors really deserve tons of kudos and applause.
> 
> I need a little understanding with regards to breeders evaluating the buyers. I am looking to get a puppy and will be a first time owner. I wrote to several breeders and couple of them responded. I even met a reputable and ethical breeder. My husband and I were excited to meet the breeder and the dogs. At the end of the meeting the breeder asked us to talk over things and get back to them if we decide to take a puppy from the breeder. In a couple of days, I sent the breeder a mail saying we are very interested in taking a puppy. I followed up the mail with a phone call and left a voice mail. I haven't heard back from the breeder if we are included in the waitlist or not. If a breeder does not respond, does it mean that the breeder is not interested in giving the buyer a puppy? What generally is the criteria on which the breeder evaluates the buyer?


Boy, it's really hard to say. In an ideal world, the breeder would have immediately responded to you and you would know exactly where you stand. But who knows? I can't tell you how "breeders" evaluate buyers. We're all different. And frankly, some of us just aren't very good with people. That's one of the reasons we got into dogs in the first place. 

I'd keep trying until you get a response. It's rude of breeders not to return your contact attempts after they invited you to "talk it over and get back to me." Well, you talked it over. You got back to her. Now where the heck is she? I dunno any better than you do. She could have a very good reason for not getting back to you, or a really bad one. No one can tell. So just keep at it, be polite but be persistent. Squeaky wheels, and all...

Good luck!


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## Vaskum04 (Feb 8, 2021)

goldielynn said:


> I know that getting in touch with a breeder can feel a lot like going on first or second dates. Does he/she like me? Did I say something wrong? Do we not have the same values? Why is he/she ghosting me? Am I going to get a puppy?
> 
> I've been through all of that. Even until the day that we picked up our puppy, I imagined worst case scenarios of our dream of bringing home a new family member actually not happening. But I would take a deep breath in this situation here. It's been a day or two. Nearly most breeders have full-time jobs that are unrelated to breeding -- life happens when you're making puppies. I would think that if the breeder actually agreed to meet you, you've made it way farther than others, and that's a good sign in of itself.
> 
> Is this conversation for some future litter to be determined, or did a breeding with a specific pair already take place?


The reason I am confused is that we met the breeder couple of months back and she planned to breed the dogs in summer. We even met the prospective dams. I haven't heard from the breeder all these days so I was wondering if we did not make the cut. Another hope is that perhaps the breeder is waiting to go through the breeding before getting back to us.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

It's tough. But it's important to remember that breeders are just humans, which stuff going on like you have going on in your life. Most of us have jobs, some of us have young kids, we have family obligations, etc. (I have all of the above at the moment!) Unfortunately for puppy buyers our first priority isn't always responding to emails. I'm not great at it, honestly. I have limited free time and it's not spent in front of my computer every day wading through emails that are not work related. Every couple of weeks I sit down and power through all of them - until we have puppies coming or a breeding planned, then I tend to be more responsive. But right now, especially, we have people who have been waiting for over a year for puppies, I'm not responding quickly unfortunately - there are just too many emails coming in to do that. I don't keep a wait list but there are already people who I have vetted and check in with me regularly. Those people will be prioritized if we have puppies this year. I always encourage people to be polite and follow up with breeders they are truly interested in. That's the best way to stay on people's radar


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

So....what you would really like is something more like:

Hello, 

My name is Angela *__*. I live with my husband and 10 year old granddaughter. We are looking for a puppy to be our next obedience/agility/field dog. I have titled dogs in obedience, agility, tricks, and FastCAT. All of my dogs have a CGC. My granddaughter has recently begun showing one of my dogs in 4-H. I'm looking for a puppy that may do well at these sports, work well with a child, and be a nice house dog. 

(Dang I ask a lot of my dogs! This is just something I might send) 

Something more detailed about plans with the puppy is what I'm getting at.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Really, breeders go through a process before their bitch is approved as well. I've been learning a lot since we have all clearances!


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## raindropps87 (Sep 6, 2021)

DanaRuns said:


> I think it's time to give breeders a break and take some personal responsibility. That sounds like a rant, I suppose. Let me explain.
> 
> People here complain all the time about breeders not being responsive to emails sent or voicemails left. I've always prided myself for being friendly and responsive and timely to every inquiry. But with the ongoing COVID-19 puppy rush, breeders get very weary from all the contacts, especially when they don't have puppies and they have nothing good to say to the potential buyer.
> 
> ...


I would love a workshop on how best to approach breeders and not make them not want to respond to me. Ive worked up an initial letter and am realizing I’ve already missed a few big points in just based off of your example email. I’m also thinking it might be too lengthy. Let me know if you end up doing a workshop  I could use a lot of help.


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## Foxdown (4 mo ago)

DanaRuns said:


> I think it's time to give breeders a break and take some personal responsibility. That sounds like a rant, I suppose. Let me explain.
> 
> People here complain all the time about breeders not being responsive to emails sent or voicemails left. I've always prided myself for being friendly and responsive and timely to every inquiry. But with the ongoing COVID-19 puppy rush, breeders get very weary from all the contacts, especially when they don't have puppies and they have nothing good to say to the potential buyer.
> 
> ...


While I understand the overwhelming number of inquiries a breeder might receive and the impact on a small business or hobbyist it would take little effort to, at a minimum, send off a polite acknowledgment of receipt of the buyer's inquiry. Indeed, such a message could be boilerplate content and be sent off on an automated basis similar to the vacation message feature all email clients offer. As practices are currently, a potential buyer is left feeling their mail inquiry ended up in a black hole. I don't think an acknowledgment of receipt response is too much to ask for. Courtesy is always appreciated by a buyer and a seller.


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

Foxdown said:


> While I understand the overwhelming number of inquiries a breeder might receive and the impact on a small business or hobbyist it would take little effort to, at a minimum, send off a polite acknowledgment of receipt of the buyer's inquiry. Indeed, such a message could be boilerplate content and be sent off on an automated basis similar to the vacation message feature all email clients offer. As practices are currently, a potential buyer is left feeling their mail inquiry ended up in a black hole. I don't think an acknowledgment of receipt response is too much to ask for. Courtesy is always appreciated by a buyer and a seller.


Not a breeder myself, but I think it's been stated before in this thread and about a gazillion other times on this forum that ethical reputable breeders don't consider themselves businesses. They are breeding for themselves, not puppy customers. They want to breed that perfect example of the breed that they picture in their minds. They simply make the other pups in a litter available because they can't keep them all. The proceeds are intended to partially fund the breeding program and whichever conformation or performance activities they use to prove their dogs. It's not income. Puppy buyers who fail to comprehend this are probably the folks most often disappointed when they discover that breeders don't always interact with them in the manner that they expect from a business. As has also been said many times on the forum, all of these breeders are not tech savvy. Some are, some aren't. Since they aren't businesses and breeding programs can be an overwhelming amount of work, not to mention that these people do need income therefore need to work an actual job like the rest of us, there just might not be enough time in a day to respond to every email. I won't even touch on the fact that there are other aspects to their lives as well. I imagine in most cases it's not an intended lack of courtesy.


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## Foxdown (4 mo ago)

Oh, I don't think, nor did I intimate, it is an intentional lack of courtesy. 
I have read ad infinitum as to how breeders view themselves I have little to say on that topic other than its a seller's market and it is a seller's game board. Like all else in life, if you want to make a purchase you play by the established rules of the club or do without the purchase.
As to a response email requiring technical knowledge. If the breeder has a website they have the knowledge or the means of establishing what can be called a vacation or out-of-office message. It would take them, quite literally, no more than five minutes. 
I did note that in a prior email one of the breeders displayed her response. It was all of two sentences and filled a need and I would presume it was appreciated by the buyer. I applaud the breeder. If the response was automated, who cares. It let the sender know their email was received. I also noted that a number of breeders state if you haven't heard from us please call to confirm we have received your email. Nice touch. 
All this being said, the market will operate as it always does and buyers and sellers will act accordingly. Be it the sale of a puppy or the need for an oncological consultation. But those who take the time to write, such as myself, shouldn't be put into a position of defending a simple request of 'did you receive my email?'.
OK, that's my view and I am sticking with it. Enough said, at least by me. Onto more enjoyable topics.


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## Dogsport (Mar 8, 2020)

The last dog I bought from a breeder was the result of a prolonged email exchange. I didn’t hear back from the breeder for about a week. She had two litters during that time and lost one of her stud dogs to a sudden illness. She didn’t apologize and I didn’t say anything about the time. Once she realized I was ready to visit and buy, she gave me her private cell number, asked for calls, no texts, and set up an appointment. It was not local for me so there were logistics involved. She would not let me see the puppies until they were 5 weeks old, so I had to wait another 4 weeks. Then it turned out she did not have any deposits on the litter, but half were not available. So I got pick of the remainder of the litter. There were 8 puppies. She kept 1 and the other three went to dog professionals either handlers or people who needed extremely high level working dogs. The remaining four were better as pets in pet homes, even if we had plans for training or sports. I was very lucky the litter wasn’t already spoken for but because she had two dogs come into heat together, the first litter went first. As buyers, we must operate within the parameters the breeders set for us or we will not be sold a dog, assuming they are good breeders.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Foxdown said:


> While I understand the overwhelming number of inquiries a breeder might receive and the impact on a small business or hobbyist it would take little effort to, at a minimum, send off a polite acknowledgment of receipt of the buyer's inquiry. Indeed, such a message could be boilerplate content and be sent off on an automated basis similar to the vacation message feature all email clients offer. As practices are currently, a potential buyer is left feeling their mail inquiry ended up in a black hole. I don't think an acknowledgment of receipt response is too much to ask for. Courtesy is always appreciated by a buyer and a seller.


Random curiosity, but how different would a robot message feel from getting no response?

*"Thank you for your inquiry.*

_*Due to the overwhelming number of inquiries that we receive, we are unable to respond to each and every single one of them. We appreciate your interest."*_

Basically a short robot response that promises nothing? You could literally manipulate the same if you set up your email before sending so you get a note if the email was received and another if read.

Gotta say - many breeders attend big dog shows. It may be "boring as hell" to go out to a dog show and walk around for a couple hours looking for specific breeders + stalking is creepy so don't get too weird about it.... but if there is a breeder that you really would love to buy a puppy from and you know this breeder does attend the bigger shows in your area or whatever else they do.... you have the opportunity to go forth and introduce yourself and directly ask questions and visit the dogs. 

Many conformation shows the last couple years have been poorly attended by spectators. I understand that very many people feel like sore thumbs walking through grooming tents trying to find a golden person who is actually a breeder, but should point out that many pro handlers are either golden breeders themselves or they could help you get your toe in the door with their clients if they think you are nice. 

I get that some people get upset or feel like they've been "cut" by a rude show person, but the only times I've seen that happen is when people are doing inappropriate things at a dog show. And those are fairly rare.


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## Dogsport (Mar 8, 2020)

I’ve found breeders are very eager to talk about their dogs at shows if you don’t bother them before they go into the ring. I also meet dog owners who are showing if I like their dogs. One woman offered to introduce me to her breeder, but it wasn’t a breed I was interested in. I just like the way her dog moved in the ring. I haven’t been to a show since Covid hit. We were told spectators weren’t welcome the first year, and I never get around to attending another after that.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Dogsport said:


> We were told spectators weren’t welcome the first year, and I never get around to attending another after that.


And that really stinks because it's the best way to literally see the dogs in person. And meet them hands on.

A lot of people "think" they like a breed and it's a good fit for them, but may not have truly met a well bred example of that breed.

A good example would be tollers - when they were introduced to AKC, I believe that many people looking at pictures thought they were literally goldens with white markings. But meeting them in person - everything is different about the breed compared to goldens, including trainability. Goldens just have this special shimmy and shine when they are training or showing/working that most breeds do not have.

Me personally, I love it when people come up and invariably end up hugging my dogs and burying their faces in their necks. My dogs love it + I do get teary eyed myself because many people I see at shows are people who have recently lost their golden and miss that feel and smell of a golden retriever.


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## Dogsport (Mar 8, 2020)

It was very sad as I enjoyed going just about every year. I don’t think attendance ever picked up. Tollers are beautiful dogs but they screech.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Dogsport said:


> It was very sad as I enjoyed going just about every year. I don’t think attendance ever picked up. Tollers are beautiful dogs but they screech.


They are actually very quiet - the ones I've seen at shows + trained at same club.

But the male dogs have more dog aggression issues related to hormones and in general they are smaller and more like aussies than golden retrievers. They are more reserved, etc.


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## Dogsport (Mar 8, 2020)

I can’t say much about the training In this video. The sound is awful.


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## Dogsport (Mar 8, 2020)

This one is cute. You can see the similarities in coloring and shape but difference in size.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Basically the entire entry started screaming in unison at a show one time. It was awful! Thank goodness it was outdoors because it would have been so much worse at an indoor show.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

This whole thread makes me exhausted.
If they don't reply it's because they don't have a dog to sell you.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

I saw Tollers when we went to a WC to observe. They were smaller than I expected. Cute, but I much prefer a Golden Retriever. Plus, that sound is a definite no for me.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> Basically the entire entry started screaming in unison at a show one time. It was awful! Thank goodness it was outdoors because it would have been so much worse at an indoor show.


Heheh- the only times I've heard screaming at a dog show, 9 times out of 10 it's terriers. One of the Kalamazoo shows had a terrier specialty - which means you had all the terriers set up in one place. And this was in a spot you had to walk past to get through to take the dogs outside. Gauntlet.

If not terrier breeds, then it's pugs and breeds like that. 

Tollers - when I've seen them, I've just seen them. It's not like a breed like collies where you walk through a group of them and the place comes alive with the sound of rasping gasps from the debarked dogs.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Foxdown said:


> While I understand the overwhelming number of inquiries a breeder might receive and the impact on a small business or hobbyist it would take little effort to, at a minimum, send off a polite acknowledgment of receipt of the buyer's inquiry. Indeed, such a message could be boilerplate content and be sent off on an automated basis similar to the vacation message feature all email clients offer. As practices are currently, a potential buyer is left feeling their mail inquiry ended up in a black hole. I don't think an acknowledgment of receipt response is too much to ask for. Courtesy is always appreciated by a buyer and a seller.


You know you reached back two years to criticize a post addressing the puppy surge at the height of the Covid pandemic, don't you? That was a time when breeders were receiving 20-50 puppy inquiries _per day_. I personally received over a thousand inquiries that year, and we had a total of three puppies to sell that year. We had a litter of six, we kept two, we placed one puppy with a friend, and thus we had three puppies left to sell to over a thousand people who inquired. That's the kind of environment I was addressing.

But to respond to you substantively, and only for myself, I can't do the automated message thing. My website -- which is a poor one and which is rarely maintained -- links directly to my personal email address. I don't have a breeding email address. You have to pay for those things. So, to do what you want, every email I receive in my personal email inbox would get an automated message in response, whether that email is from my cousin, my trash service, junk mail, phishers, etc. That's not practical for me.

Again, this is not a business and you are not a customer. You are a stranger making a cold call to a busy human being. As was the point of my initial post, if you want to get a return on your email it's your responsibility to entice the human being you're writing and who is probably wading through tons of emails that day to respond. An email that says in sum total, "How much are your puppies?" received at a time when we don't even have a litter planned isn't one I personally am enticed to respond to (though I always do, anyway, so I'm actually not one of the people you're criticizing). Likewise, a manifesto received at the same time isn't likely to get my attention all the way through and receive a substantive response. The point was to take responsibility yourself and not put it all on the stranger you're emailing.

This is not a business, and you are not a customer. We are not a puppy store. I don't know why that message never gets through. Most of us only have one litter in the entire year, most years, and if you write that manifesto or the unpleasant "How much are your puppies?" in January when we won't have a litter until November, you're not enticing the person on the other end to give you serious consideration in the middle of a busy day. My point _during the pandemic puppy surge_ was to say that as someone who wants to buy a puppy from this other busy human being, you need to take responsibility for inspiring someone to respond to you when you randomly "cold call" email a stranger out of the blue.

This is not a business. You are not a customer. If you're expecting a business transaction and business ethic in a situation that is not a business, that's your failure of expectations, not the breeders'.


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## Foxdown (4 mo ago)

Megora said:


> Random curiosity, but how different would a robot message feel from getting no response?
> 
> *"Thank you for your inquiry.*
> 
> ...





DanaRuns said:


> You know you reached back two years to criticize a post addressing the puppy surge at the height of the Covid pandemic, don't you? That was a time when breeders were receiving 20-50 puppy inquiries _per day_. I personally received over a thousand inquiries that year, and we had a total of three puppies to sell that year. We had a litter of six, we kept two, we placed one puppy with a friend, and thus we had three puppies left to sell to over a thousand people who inquired. That's the kind of environment I was addressing.
> 
> But to respond to you substantively, and only for myself, I can't do the automated message thing. My website -- which is a poor one and which is rarely maintained -- links directly to my personal email address. I don't have a breeding email address. You have to pay for those things. So, to do what you want, every email I receive in my personal email inbox would get an automated message in response, whether that email is from my cousin, my trash service, junk mail, phishers, etc. That's not practical for me.
> 
> ...





DanaRuns said:


> You know you reached back two years to criticize a post addressing the puppy surge at the height of the Covid pandemic, don't you? That was a time when breeders were receiving 20-50 puppy inquiries _per day_. I personally received over a thousand inquiries that year, and we had a total of three puppies to sell that year. We had a litter of six, we kept two, we placed one puppy with a friend, and thus we had three puppies left to sell to over a thousand people who inquired. That's the kind of environment I was addressing.
> 
> But to respond to you substantively, and only for myself, I can't do the automated message thing. My website -- which is a poor one and which is rarely maintained -- links directly to my personal email address. I don't have a breeding email address. You have to pay for those things. So, to do what you want, every email I receive in my personal email inbox would get an automated message in response, whether that email is from my cousin, my trash service, junk mail, phishers, etc. That's not practical for me.
> 
> ...


Live long and prosper.


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## JerseyChris (10 mo ago)

Foxdown said:


> Live long and prosper.


I sure hope she does. The world needs more breeders like her.


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