# What Titles Have Value To You?



## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I'm probably putting this under the wrong category.....

In another thread the value of different titles was brought up. So which titles hold more value to you as a breeder or buyer? 

I've been working towards a possible Rally Championship and a Utility (obedience) title. So obviously, that's what's important to me right now. And I don't have time and money for field at the moment. My dogs have CCA's because I'm just not a conformation person. We do tricks titles too. They take more training than you think. Winx has an agility title and Pilot could probably get one. But agility isn't my focus right now.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

FC Field Champion
AFC Amateur Field Champion
NFC National Field Champion
NAFC National Amateur Field Champion

To a much lesser degree
FTCH & AFTCH Canadian field trial champions

QAA & QA2 Qualified all age

To an even lesser degree
MH Master Hunter


I'll add that the dogs don't care about any titles or ribbons. It is the journey with you to get them that they love.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Only things like AFC/FC/MH. (As a buyer. I don't breed.)


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

As someone new to the world of agility I have an extreme appreciation now for all AKC/CKC/AAC agility titles. I do list Summit's NADAC titles on k9data. I'm proud of them too.

However, I can also appreciate the amount of work that goes into achieving AKC/CKC show, field, hunt, upper level rally, and obedience titles.

I achieved my trick dog championship title, which was not easy - but, did not take the same amount of time/energy/money to get Summit ready for agility. I also want to compete in nose work, but, similarly - this seems to come much more naturally, and required far less work/practice <- my scent instructor agreed with me on this.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

The titles I want to put on my dogs (AKC Obedience and Conformation). 

I have respect for other titles, but admittedly do not go out of my way looking at pedigrees with those titles.


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

AKC Junior Hunter (JH), Senior Hunter (SH), Master Hunter (MH)...

I too appreciate all of the performance titles. I have watched Field Trials, Obedience Tests, Agility, and of course Dog Shows....

Dogs love them all, as long as they are busy working with their trainer.... they are very happy!


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

3Pebs3 said:


> As someone new to the world of agility I have an extreme appreciation now for all AKC/CKC/AAC agility titles. I do list Summit's NADAC titles on k9data. I'm proud of them too.
> 
> However, I can also appreciate the amount of work that goes into achieving AKC/CKC show, field, hunt, upper level rally, and obedience titles.
> 
> I achieved my trick dog championship title, which was not easy - but, did not take the same amount of time/energy/money to get Summit ready for agility. I also want to compete in nose work, but, similarly - this seems to come much more naturally, and required far less work/practice <- my scent instructor agreed with me on this.


I have our UKC titles on the K9data pages. They are all earned accolades!

Tricks aren't easy! True...not as hard as other things but still a lot of work! You must mean Do More With Your Dog. I've just been doing AKC titles. I've been sticking to AKC and UKC only....mostly AKC. 

Which brings up another point....do titles outside of AKC hold less value?


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

It's worth noting that a dog with field titles such as FC or MH is a dog who is obedient and biddable. So that is why an obedience title wouldn't really be of concern for me.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Hildae said:


> It's worth noting that a dog with field titles such as FC or MH is a dog who is obedient and biddable. So that is why an obedience title wouldn't really be of concern for me.


And that's okay! All sports do start with obedience! That doesn't mean you need titles in it. There are handlers out there who should take obedience a little more seriously though. I choose obedience because it fits with my schedule and I can show locally. The very nearest field events are 3 hours away!


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

DevWind said:


> And that's okay! All sports do start with obedience! That doesn't mean you need titles in it. There are handlers out there who should take obedience a little more seriously though. I choose obedience because it fits with my schedule and I can show locally. The very nearest field events are 3 hours away!


I don't discount obedience titles, they've got value. But to me, a field title is of more interest because it's proof that the dog can do the things the breed is intrinsically meant to do AND they are obedient. It's sort of like a package deal, one title proving 2 things.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Hildae said:


> I don't discount obedience titles, they've got value. But to me, a field title is of more interest because it's proof that the dog can do the things the breed is intrinsically meant to do AND they are obedient. It's sort of like a package deal, one title proving 2 things.


Right....we do plan to get field title eventually. Right now our efforts are on rally and obedience. I know for a fact he can do the work....he LOVES the work!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hildae said:


> It's worth noting that a dog with field titles such as FC or MH is a dog who is obedient and biddable. So that is why an obedience title wouldn't really be of concern for me.


You've not seen field titled dogs struggling in obedience like I have though. 

Most field bred dogs that I've seen dipping into obedience are hard headed and bull in a china shop tending vs what I want for obedience.

Obedience, I want a dog that can pivot on a dime with as little energy expended as possible. I want quiet and focused workers (who also are gorgeous). For obedience clean and precise is very important.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> You've not seen field titled dogs struggling in obedience like I have though.
> 
> Most field bred dogs that I've seen dipping into obedience are hard headed and bull in a china shop tending vs what I want for obedience.


I don't doubt that at all. Field trial dogs today have to precisely mark multiple falls at 100 - 500 yards, with multiple retired guns, live fliers, complex terrain, cover, water entries, cross winds........... They have a lot on their plate. Very few dogs can focus on all this and still have impeccable line manners. With most dogs you can get one or the other but not both.


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## MintChip (Feb 26, 2021)

Field titles. Hey I'd be happy with JH .
Especially those that complement what the breed were initally bred to do. Hunt and Retrieve.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

MintChip said:


> Field titles. Hey I'd be happy with JH .


If that is what you want, you can achieve it, and more.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

As a puppy buyer, I personally want to see...

1. Conformation championships on the sire, and at least a CCA on the dam. To be honest, I put more weight on the CCA, since I know that a dog can still be an awesome representative of the breed and yet never make "the cut" in a large field of Goldens in a conformation class. And so much about a dog (good and bad) is at the mercy of both the skill of the handlers and the individual judges. At least with a CCA I know that several knowledgeable people have looked closely at the dog and have come to a consensus that it is a good representative of the breed.

2. Any title that shows me that the dog is more than a baby machine. Even a CGC or BN or trick dog title tells me the owner has spent one on one time with the dog and has taught them things.

3. Optional but nice to have: Upper level titles/Championships in any venue (OB, Rally, Agility, Field, Nosework, etc.). Field titles (nice to know the dog can do what he was bred to do, but since I have no interest in hunting or field work, demonstrating that the dog has those instincts are only of value to me in terms of whether the dog is willing to fetch balls and dumbbells). Therapy dog work (I value that this demonstrates that the dog has the sort of temperament that I would like in my own pets).

Although I am impressed by dogs that have OB or Rally or Agility championships, honestly I think that often says more about the owner/handler and how much time and money they have to keep entering and competing with their dogs. I think any title up to the Excellent/UD level already tells me what I need to know about the trainability and biddability of the dog itself.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> I don't doubt that at all. Field trial dogs today have to precisely mark multiple falls at 100 - 500 yards, with multiple retired guns, live fliers, complex terrain, cover, water entries, cross winds........... They have a lot on their plate. Very few dogs can focus on all this and still have impeccable line manners. With most dogs you can get one or the other but not both.


I just see dogs that are thick skulled and are trained to do X that doesn't require too much thinking on their part.  

I love having a smarter and more sensitive dog. <B


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

Kate....enough already! You seem to know Golden's, surely you are not saying they are "thick skulled"! I hear this comment about Labs, but I also know it is not true. some are harder to train, but many, especially in Field Trials are quick learners, creative, and fast as lighting! Are you just kidding or what?


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

As a buyer - My dog is my agility partner, so when I was looking for my pup, I looked for obedience and agility titles in the pedigree because they signal biddable dogs and that is what I wanted. I would still do this next time.

As a dog owner - It's become a bit more complicated over the years. Getting titles and winning championships used to be really important and still is, I guess, to some extent. For example, we're very close to Duster's AAC Lifetime award (100 standard Qs and 125 game Qs). There aren't a whole lot of Goldens who've achieved this, and it will be fun to add Duster's name to that very short list. Honestly, though, what gives me the greatest pleasure with my dog these days isn't just the ribbons and titles, it's the team we've become. We've travelled a long way and overcome a lot of stuff in the last six years: my knee replacement, his anxiety, our slow melding into a partnership. I just love training this dog - he's such a rewarding partner. Trials are a good way of testing our training and seeing what we need to learn next. But at our trial last weekend, I watched some of my fellow competitors and how important clean runs and first places have become to them, more important sometimes than making sure their dog has a good time, and it's made me wary. I don't think I'm like that. But they weren't like that either, a few years ago.

So Duster and I will complete the Lifetime and maybe (not sure yet) go to this year's provincial championship at the end of June, and then we might take a month or two away from the trial circuit during the summer heat. We'll keep training agility through the summer because we both enjoy the classes. We're also both loving our rally obedience classes, especially Duster who has found his vocation there. Maybe in the fall I'll split the competition budget between agility trials and rally trials. Do something new. Let my dog shine in his favourite sport. 

In ten years time, when he's not there any more and I look at all the ribbons and trophies he's won, I want to know without a shadow of a doubt that he enjoyed the ride too.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

DevWind said:


> Tricks aren't easy! True...not as hard as other things but still a lot of work! You must mean Do More With Your Dog. I've just been doing AKC titles. I've been sticking to AKC and UKC only....mostly AKC.
> 
> Which brings up another point....do titles outside of AKC hold less value?


Yes, I did earn her trick titles through Do More With Your Dog <--- which, are recognized by AKC/CKC. After completing her TDCH, I submitted her titles to CKC for approval. Just waiting for the CKC certificate in the mail. 

I think the value of titles outside of AKC, again depends on the difficulty it takes to achieve said title, and whether or not it is a valuable title to the puppy buyer. I think this thread shows that titles are valued, but, different people put higher value in very different things.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

3goldens2keep said:


> Kate....enough already! You seem to know Golden's, surely you are not saying they are "thick skulled"! I hear this comment about Labs, but I also know it is not true. some are harder to train, but many, especially in Field Trials are quick learners, creative, and fast as lighting! Are you just kidding or what?


To be honest, I was talking about the labs while responding directly to SRW who is a lab person. 

The FC goldens - I do not see many in obedience. Talking specific lines that are producing current FC dogs. Like Semper, etc.

I guess I think it would be awesome to see more FC goldens in obedience training, why don't their owners bring them? (innocent smile)

Performance line (obedience bred) - yes, definitely nothing to criticize them on _performance_. But many of them have innumerable faults....  <= But I guess at that point, I'm checking both the titles and the pedigrees. They would have the titles I'd want to see, but not the pedigrees.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Megora said:


> You've not seen field titled dogs struggling in obedience like I have though.
> 
> Most field bred dogs that I've seen dipping into obedience are hard headed and bull in a china shop tending vs what I want for obedience.
> 
> Obedience, I want a dog that can pivot on a dime with as little energy expended as possible. I want quiet and focused workers (who also are gorgeous). For obedience clean and precise is very important.


Good lord, what titles have you actually put on a dog? So many of your claims about OB and field dogs are such utter and complete nonsense. There is considerable crossover between field and OB dogs because there is considerable crossover between the traits that make a good dog in both sports: athleticism, biddability, etc. 

Petra Ford won the National OB Championship TWICE and Crufts OB with the same dog, Count Tyler Show Me the Money, a lab from pure field lines. Ty's pedigree link:


Pedigree: NOC OTCH Count Tyler Show Me The Money UDX7 OM7 MH


Note that BOTH parents and ALL FOUR grandparents were FC/AFC dogs. Two of his grandparents were NAFC dogs. Search youtube for videos of Ty and Petra. Ty is the most precise and focused dog you can possibly imagine. 

Connie Cleveland's OTCH/FC/AFC golden Topbrass Ascending Elijah: Pedigree: FC AFC OTCH Topbrass Ascending Elijah OS FDHF was virtually all field dog, unless you go back far enough to when conformation dogs still looked like golden retrievers and not the increasingly cartoonish caricatures you see in conformation today.

My OTCH dog, Pinyon, is all field line: Pedigree: OTCH Pinyon Cassidy UDX2 OM2 RM SH OBHF
NOBODY would ever describe Pinyon in a million years as "Hard-headed and bull in a china shop"!!!! Mild-mannered, happy-go-lucky, friendly, extremely biddable, submissive, soft, yes. Hard-headed???!!!!! The polar opposite.


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## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

Deleted


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> I just see dogs that are thick skulled and are trained to do X that doesn't require too much thinking on their part.


There are retrievers like that but they don't attain FC or AFC.


[/QUOTE]


Megora said:


> To be honest, I was talking about the labs while responding directly to SRW who is a lab person.


I'm a retriever person











Megora said:


> I guess I think it would be awesome to see more FC goldens in obedience training, why don't their owners bring them?


Primarily because obedience training is done in the field not at a class.
The reason few compete in obedience is lack of time and interest. Also as I said, for many dogs competitive level obedience training can be detrimental to field work.


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

pawsnpaca said:


> As a puppy buyer, I personally want to see...
> 
> 1. Conformation championships on the sire, and at least a CCA on the dam. To be honest, I put more weight on the CCA, since I know that a dog can still be an awesome representative of the breed and yet never make "the cut" in a large field of Goldens in a conformation class. And so much about a dog (good and bad) is at the mercy of both the skill of the handlers and the individual judges. At least with a CCA I know that several knowledgeable people have looked closely at the dog and have come to a consensus that it is a good representative of the breed.
> 
> ...


I pretty much agree with all of this....Lisa said it better than I probably would've. As a pet/companion home we want a well rounded dog....needs to look like a Golden, act like a Golden, smell like a Golden.....ok, maybe not that last one.....but a dog that has all the characteristics that a Golden was originally supposed to have to be a Golden Retriever. Murphy's sire has a CH title and his dam is pointed but not finished. His grand dam on the sire's side has AM and Can CH titles and a JH. There's a good mix of Conformation and performance titles along with a few dogs that only show CGC and/or trick titles in both parents' 5 gen pedigrees. I know that his breeder has worked with her dogs in a variety of disciplines over decades of breeding and involvement with the breed. We kind of fell into the opportunity to get him but at 13 mos now, he is everything we hoped to have.


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## Birdi (Nov 15, 2021)

pawsnpaca said:


> As a puppy buyer, I personally want to see...
> 
> 1. Conformation championships on the sire, and at least a CCA on the dam. To be honest, I put more weight on the CCA, since I know that a dog can still be an awesome representative of the breed and yet never make "the cut" in a large field of Goldens in a conformation class. And so much about a dog (good and bad) is at the mercy of both the skill of the handlers and the individual judges. At least with a CCA I know that several knowledgeable people have looked closely at the dog and have come to a consensus that it is a good representative of the breed.
> 
> ...


Also as a puppy buyer, I broadly agree with this but I want to see some kind of field title in the not too distant past because I want to lower my risk of getting a puppy with a genetic tendency towards noise sensitivity/fear. 

Can't get a field title if you're afraid of gunshots. I'm in Florida & we have fireworks going off from summer to NYE & having a bombproof dog is worth its weight in gold.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Birdi said:


> I want to lower my risk of getting a puppy with a genetic tendency towards noise sensitivity/fear.


That is not genetic. I suppose a tendency to be timid might be.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

To answer the OP: I look for high-level performance titles, but I’m not a purist. I love smart, biddable, interactive, athletic, team-player type dogs. Retrieving, competitive obedience, agility, herding, whatever, I want to see high level titles in activities that require the dog have those traits. Sure, I think retrievers should retrieve, but in a world where the human population growth is relentless and development is rapidly engulfing the last remaining fragments of wetland habitat, finding the grounds for retriever training is difficult and getting harder. I’ll settle for high level agility and obedience titles By “high-level”, I’d look for a good number of al leat level 3 titles in a pedigree (UD, MX/MXJ, MH( 

Some of the newer titles don’t get as much respect because they don’t demand the level of training or as much of the “team-player” aspect. A RACH is somewhere between a CD and a CDX in level of difficulty. The barn hunt, scent work, etc. titles look like tons of fun for dog and handler, and I plan to do them when I have an old dog that wants something fun to do, but they don’t compare to the high level titles in OB, AG, or hunt. 

I look for conformation titles only in the sense that I don’t like to see them. The closer up in a pedigree, the bigger a black mark they are, especially in labs and goldens. The conformation labs look like waddling beer kegs with toothpick legs and a tail that doesn’t look like a natural extension of its backbone. The conformation goldens look like small yellow Newfoundlands. And not the original type of Newfie that could hike halfway across the country and back on the Lewis and Clark expedition; they look like small versions of the horrible modern show Newfie, plodding around with too much fur, drooping jowls, and wrinkled foreheads. I can live with a CCA in a pedigree, but don’t really like to see it because I believe it perpetuates the show ring myth that you can tell much of anything useful about a dog by looking at it.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Megora said:


> To be honest, I was talking about the labs while responding directly to SRW who is a lab person.
> 
> The FC goldens - I do not see many in obedience. Talking specific lines that are producing current FC dogs. Like Semper, etc.
> 
> ...


Ah yes those Semper dogs are never in the obedience ring.... Pedigree: OTCH Semper Firebird UDX OM2 MH WCX ** OD OBHF VCX CCA

ETA: For those that can't take a half second to dig into k9data, this is also the aunt of FC Maci.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

myluckypenny said:


> Ah yes those Semper dogs are never in the obedience ring.... Pedigree: OTCH Semper Firebird UDX OM2 MH WCX ** OD OBHF VCX CCA


Yea but can she "pivot on a dime with as little energy expended as possible"?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

OK, comment for you very sensitive tempered field people going WHEEEE over there. 

I commented lightly earlier this morning because I could not resist pecking at somebody who has claimed many times that it's FC titles or field trial accomplishments or nothing. I find that perspective to be bothersome when you consider the fact that other breeds do not have the same chips on their shoulder towards people who are trying... where they themselves never try. Do I personally care? Nope. It is not my sport or dogs that he's dismissing while propping up his own dog or whatever it is he does. 

All dogs that I've seen in obedience are coming from breeders like Tanbark and Wynwood with some random Topbrass here or there. The dogs come from high level obedience and agility pedigrees. These are the types of dogs I see. 

I have never ever seen a FC golden show up at local trials. EVER. I've been training in obedience and putting obedience titles on my dogs since the 90's. Which was a very long time ago.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

PalouseDogs said:


> I look for conformation titles only in the sense that I don’t like to see them. The closer up in a pedigree, the bigger a black mark they are, especially in labs and goldens. The conformation labs look like waddling beer kegs with toothpick legs and a tail that doesn’t look like a natural extension of its backbone. The conformation goldens look like small yellow Newfoundlands. And not the original type of Newfie that could hike halfway across the country and back on the Lewis and Clark expedition; they look like small versions of the horrible modern show Newfie, plodding around with too much fur, drooping jowls, and wrinkled foreheads. I can live with a CCA in a pedigree, but don’t really like to see it because I believe it perpetuates the show ring myth that you can tell much of anything useful about a dog by looking at it.


Can people tell you what your dog(s) look like? 

Yeah.... post a stacked pic of your dog and invite people to comment.

But would people really jump at the invitation to critique? 

Nope. 

I personally think that dogs who never were bred for conformation.... they are what they are. 

A lot of the times, it's owners behind them who have lost track of what a purebred dog is supposed to look like and sometimes they have a totally dysmorphic view of dogs that do not look like their own. Regardless of what is written into the breed standard.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Birdi said:


> Also as a puppy buyer, I broadly agree with this but I want to see some kind of field title in the not too distant past because I want to lower my risk of getting a puppy with a genetic tendency towards noise sensitivity/fear.
> 
> Can't get a field title if you're afraid of gunshots. I'm in Florida & we have fireworks going off from summer to NYE & having a bombproof dog is worth its weight in gold.


You forgot to mention the really crazy thunderstorms you have down there.  We do not have thunder that loud up here and I would not compare the sound of gunshots to that.


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## GrandmaToGoldens (Jul 2, 2019)

DevWind said:


> In another thread the value of different titles was brought up. So which titles hold more value to you as a breeder or buyer?


As a buyer with a life-long passion for training and competing with my dogs… none!

Okay, that’s somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I definitely want a dog from a breeder who lives with, trains and works with his/her own dogs, and high level titles in most disciplines are an indicator of that. However, I have seen breeders who are so focused on success in their chosen arena that they produce obedience trial winners which are too hyped to live with or agility champions that are just plain nasty. The titles on their dogs mean nothing to me. I look for breeders who are aware of the whole dog, can talk intelligently about all aspects of their dogs and breed on a broader basis than titles alone.

On the other hand, although I’m not a field trial competitor, I definitely value a pedigree with field trial titles or dogs that have been used in the field by experienced hunters. I believe that Golden Retrievers (or other gun dogs) that cannot be trained to retrieve in the field have lost a defining characteristic of the breed.

Edited to add… I have read that some (many?) breeders in the US employ professional trainers and handlers in Obedience. I think I’d place less value on a title gained through professional training and handling, and I wonder if the practice is detrimental to the breeders’ knowledge about their dogs.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> I commented lightly earlier this morning because I could not resist pecking at somebody who has claimed many times that it's FC titles or field trial accomplishments or nothing.


On the off chance it is sweet little me you are pecking at, that is not my opinion at all. Are there some AKC titles that are just silly? I think so.
Field trial titles are the epitome of retriever work, along with upland and waterfowl hunting IMO. That doesn't mean there aren't other great things retrievers can and do and enjoy.
People working with and training their own dogs is always a good thing.



Megora said:


> I have never ever seen a FC golden show up at local trials. EVER. I've been training in obedience and putting obedience titles on my dogs since the 90's.


Well there have been although it is not common. As I have pointed out many times, lack of interest and time is a factor.
Here is a pretty good one;








Stanley Steamer -


This amazing portrait of Stanley was given to us by Lâle Aksu and her husband Matt. It was done by Christina Shalaby. It is exactly how Stanley looked right up to his final day. Beautiful expression, loving eyes, and the look of anticipation that a treat may be coming by




www.tntkennels.com




And another


Pedigree: FC AFC FTCH AFTCH Can OTCH TNT's Explosion Am UD FDHF OS; Can FDHF OBHF



Just thinking, have you ran any field trials lately?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> On the off chance it is sweet little me you are pecking at, that is not my opinion at all.


Surprising that you say that, since that has clearly been your opinion on this forum.

You have dismissed even MH titles on occasion and basically have stated the dogs aren't worth much if they do not have field trial titles.

Again, it's not my sport, so I don't really care beyond thinking that if people in conformation are trying to breed for the middle and produce pups who are GRCA DDHF (MH and CH titles on the dogs), their dogs should be appreciated for that. Plus, they are doing more to breed and qualify their dogs to show they are breeding for the whole dog.... than many in other sports do.

This is not me talking about my own dogs. It's me giving a nod to breeders and owners... and their fantastic dogs... who are everything goldens should be.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> You have dismissed even MH titles on occasion and basically have stated the dogs aren't worth much if they do not have field trial titles.


I have stated that MH titles are unfortunately not always what they should be. Some, hopefully most, MH dogs,are very respectable retrievers. I have also seen MH passes given to dogs that did not earn them.

Anyone that trains their own retriever to the MH standard should be very proud of their achievement.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> I have stated that MH titles are unfortunately not always what they should be. Some, hopefully most, MH dogs,are very respectable retrievers. I have also seen MH passes given to dogs that did not earn them.
> 
> Anyone that trains their own retriever to the MH standard should be very proud of their achievement.


Most that I know of are training their own dogs - including people who have dogs that look a bit like my 3 year old (big boned all that) and have gotten ten million MH passes with their golden. This breed is not in as deplorable shape as some would make it when you've got dogs like that coming out of nowhere. 

Another dog I was gobsmacked to find out that he got his CH, MH, and even a UD in the same year. And regular normal people - and this dog had a lot of hair. More hair than my dogs! (ETA - dog is a CH MACH UDX MH - owner handled).

I honestly really hate the sniping about the titles people get - if they cross the line between conformation and field. They should get full credit - especially if owner handled, as you say. And many are.

The dog who took 10+ tries to get a JH title was a fantastic golden. He was everything to his owner and having seen him as an old dog - he was wonderful. And he has nice kids. <= No relation to my dogs so no bias speaking here.


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## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

SRW said:


> On the off chance it is sweet little me you are pecking at, that is not my opinion at all. Are there some AKC titles that are just silly? I think so.
> Field trial titles are the epitome of retriever work, along with upland and waterfowl hunting IMO. That doesn't mean there aren't other great things retrievers can and do and enjoy.
> People working with and training their own dogs is always a good thing.
> 
> ...


A Canadian OTCH is a dog with a UD so it's a totally different title than an AKC OTCH. Regardless Stanley was an amazing dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

rhondas said:


> A Canadian OTCH is a dog with a UD so it's a totally different title than an AKC OTCH. Regardless Stanley was an amazing dog.


Janice has had and continues to have fantastic dogs. 

I love her Seven.


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## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

The only one that matters - Dock Diving.


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

Titles that count towards GRCA versatility certificates - my goal is to obtain a VC or VCX one day. Obedience is my first love, but I've started to enjoy conformation, as well. I love a beautiful, well-structured dog who LOVES to work (play) training games with me.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

SRW said:


> I have also seen MH passes given to dogs that did not earn them.


That makes me sad. I don't want to see titles of any type lose value because they're given when not earned.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> The dog who took 10+ tries to get a JH title was a fantastic golden.


Goldens are retrievers. Only a very unintelligent retriever would need 10+ tries to get a JH title.



Megora said:


> And he has nice kids.


So he was bred, that's just fantastic. Must have had a heck of a topline to outweigh his lack of intelligence?


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Man, y’all are on a tear with these conformation vs obedience vs field threads today.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Hildae said:


> That makes me sad. I don't want to see titles of any type lose value because they're given when not earned.


EVERY sport has dogs with titles that don’t deserve them. It’s your choice to think (or not) that the title in question has lost value because someone else didn’t deserve it.


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

ArkansasGold said:


> Man, y’all are on a tear with these conformation vs obedience vs field threads today.


Us pet folks are just sitting back with a bag of popcorn enjoying the show......


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> So he was bred, that's just fantastic. Must have had a heck of a topline to outweigh his lack of intelligence?


He's produced many kids and grandkids who have gone on to do all the sports. A lot of the people with most sour grapes about him couldn't say the same about their own dogs.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

ArkansasGold said:


> Man, y’all are on a tear with these conformation vs obedience vs field threads today.


Giddyup


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> He's produced many kids and grandkids who have gone on to do all the sports.


Of course he did. What is this fine studs name?


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## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

FurdogDad said:


> Us pet folks are just sitting back with a bag of popcorn enjoying the show......


I'm just sitting back thrilled that my husband is delivering 4 puppies this weekend - two of them are Goldens. This will be our first time flying full Golden puppies. We've flown Labs and Lab-Golden crosses but two cute fluff balls will be fun!

We all find our niche activities with dogs.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> Man, y’all are on a tear with these conformation vs obedience vs field threads today.


It's basically the same thread in two places. LOL.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Late to the party… but for me, an AKC CH (not UKC) and beyond that. I don’t know what the field champion titles are (I think AFC is one?) but those. SH and MH- I’ve been told that JH misses the mark a bit. I may rejudge when I have learned more about the field world. All obedience titles hold value to me.
On a dog with other titles , the titles of CCA and WC/X hold value to me. I wouldn’t take a CCA alone as reason to breed a dog, however. I’m going to be completely honest and admit that I don’t know how agility titles work.
I appreciate trick titles, especially the high level ones, but I wouldn’t use them as a reason to breed a dog.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

SRW said:


> Also as I said, for many dogs competitive level obedience training can be detrimental to field work.


Someone in another thread gave the example of articles in Obedience interfering with a dog's efficiency in the field, and vice versa. Is it other things like that?


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Megora said:


> Another dog I was gobsmacked to find out that he got his CH, MH, and even a UD in the same year. And regular normal people - and this dog had a lot of hair. More hair than my dogs! (ETA - dog is a CH MACH UDX MH - owner handled).


If you're not going to post the dog publicly, would you mind PMing me a pedigree link if you have one? No worries if not!


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

GoldenDude said:


> The only one that matters - Dock Diving.


👏👏👏


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Megora said:


> It's basically the same thread in two places. LOL.


I like to think that the other one has a bit more ✨finesse✨, but yes, I believe that the OP actually mentioned the other thread in the first post of this one.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

PalouseDogs said:


> Some of the newer titles don’t get as much respect because they don’t demand the level of training or as much of the “team-player” aspect. A RACH is somewhere between a CD and a CDX in level of difficulty. The barn hunt, scent work, etc. titles look like tons of fun for dog and handler, and I plan to do them when I have an old dog that wants something fun to do, but they don’t compare to the high level titles in OB, AG, or hunt.


I do have to disagree here. A RACH is somewhere between a CDX and UD in my opinion. I have Pilot trained all the way through UD and there’s been things I’ve had to teach him for Master. There’s heeling backwards, the weird front exercise where they are supposed to move with you, just different things. Some of it is like training for utility. Plus, there‘s the points and triple Q’s. You have to get 20 triple Q’s plus 300 points with 150 being from Master. I never thought Rally was hard until I started competing in Master….i Have found it to be challenging and fun to teach the new stuff. Most of it can be related to something in obedience.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

FinnTheFloof said:


> I like to think that the other one has a bit more ✨finesse✨, but yes, I believe that the OP actually mentioned the other thread in the first post of this one.


 I did….as a way to not hijack the other thread. 🙂


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

DevWind said:


> I did….as a way to not hijack the other thread. 🙂


And we all did it ANYWAY.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Megora said:


> And we all did it ANYWAY.


Of course we did!


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

FinnTheFloof said:


> Someone in another thread gave the example of articles in Obedience interfering with a dog's efficiency in the field, and vice versa. Is it other things like that?


Articles, if I understand it would be contrary to some of the basics in field work. A small issue, I think situational awareness would play in with a mature dog.


The conflict I see with competitive level obedience training is the degree of focus the dog must have on the handler.
A dog with that much focus on the handler probably won't be able to focus on multiple marks thrown at considerable distances.
There have been few dual champions of field and obedience but it is very rare.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

I didn't want to say that


SRW said:


> Articles, if I understand it would be contrary to some of the basics in field work. A small issue, I think situational awareness would play in with a mature dog.
> 
> 
> The conflict I see with competitive level obedience training is the degree of focus the dog must have on the handler.
> ...


Thank you for explaining!


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Wow….that escalated quickly! Curiosity killed the cat as they say.

Here’s what I know. I like a dog that I could take anywhere if I had to. I can say with almost 100% certainty that a field bred dog would probably be a bit much for me. Pilot has a very nice pedigree with the things I value in there. I’ve been working on proving him as a performance type dog I guess. He has a CCA. We are working on a UD and a RAE, RM, and RACH. He has titles in other things like CGCA and U, and trick titles. The VHMA is because I’m a CGC evaluator and I feel like it’s important for people to see that my own personal dogs have earned what I’m judging their dog on! I look for a variety of titles.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

SRW said:


> Articles, if I understand it would be contrary to some of the basics in field work. A small issue, I think situational awareness would play in with a mature dog.
> 
> 
> The conflict I see with competitive level obedience training is the degree of focus the dog must have on the handler.
> ...


Yes, I went to field training one weekend during teaching articles. There were people who wanted to do pile work. I sat it out. With articles, you want them to “shop”. Something that’s frowned upon in field.


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## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

DevWind said:


> Yes, I went to field training one weekend during teaching articles. There were people who wanted to do pile work. I sat it out. With articles, you want them to “shop”. Something that’s frowned upon in field.


I think it is the group you train with. I know many people who have done or are doing obedience and field/hunt work with their dogs during the same time frame. Some of the dogs are OTCH, MH and QAA. In fact, most are have at least UDX and SH.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

rhondas said:


> I think it is the group you train with. I know many people who have done or are doing obedience and field/hunt work with their dogs during the same time frame. Some of the dogs are OTCH, MH and QAA. In fact, most are have at least UDX and SH.


But when teaching articles? I'm sure they keep things separate when teaching? I think we all know people who train their dogs for everything the first 2-3 years and then start entering trials and tests.

My instructor has put CH OTCH MH titles on her dogs (retrievers and terriers) and I know she has said there's a timing to train dogs to go to pile and teaching articles.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

rhondas said:


> I think it is the group you train with. I know many people who have done or are doing obedience and field/hunt work with their dogs during the same time frame. Some of the dogs are OTCH, MH and QAA. In fact, most are have at least UDX and SH.





Megora said:


> But when teaching articles? I'm sure they keep things separate when teaching? I think we all know people who train their dogs for everything the first 2-3 years and then start entering trials and tests.
> 
> My instructor has put CH OTCH MH titles on her dogs (retrievers and terriers) and I know she has said there's a timing to train dogs to go to pile and teaching articles.


Of course not while teaching articles! That would be, well, not smart. It had absolutely nothing to do with the professional handler and the others in the group. It had everything to do with me advocating for my dog and saying no to pile work. There was no way he was going to be admonished for "shopping". I was literally teaching him to "shop"! Now that he has that skill down, I could teach pile work. Not sure why anyone would try to teach opposing skills together. That doesn't make sense. It would be like teaching children to add while teaching them to subtract.


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## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

DevWind said:


> Of course not while teaching articles! That would be, well, not smart. It had absolutely nothing to do with the professional handler and the others in the group. It had everything to do with me advocating for my dog and saying no to pile work. There was no way he was going to be admonished for "shopping". I was literally teaching him to "shop"! Now that he has that skill down, I could teach pile work. Not sure why anyone would try to teach opposing skills together. That doesn't make sense. It would be like teaching children to add while teaching them to subtract.


Well call me and others who train stupid. I know people who have done it during same timeframe. I have and had no issue. My dog understood the difference....Utility articles are completely different. 

It seems that everyone knows how every skill should be trained and achieved when they have yet to achieve high level titles themselves.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

rhondas said:


> Well call me and others who train stupid. I know people who have done it during same timeframe. I have and had no issue. My dog understood the difference....Utility articles are completely different.
> 
> It seems that everyone knows how every skill should be trained and achieved when they have yet to achieve high level titles themselves.


Random curiosity.... did you and others wake up the last couple mornings with the plan to really turn off people from multiple sports? It's one thing for field people to sit around throwing insults at people and their dogs - because of course, they do. It another for obedience people to do the same.

I fully expect you to delete this post and go into hiding - which is why I quoted it. 🥴

It would be one thing for you to be insulting people who live somewhere like Utah or whatever where they have no training clubs. It's another to insult people who train in an area where sports like obedience is alive and thriving with many clubs in a close knit area and many many many people with OTCH's on their dogs. And you know, where people are actively training their dogs.


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## chelseah (Dec 8, 2020)

I started following this thread because as a recent first time puppy buyer and someone completely new to the concept of dog sports, I really didn't realize how much I didn't know about titles and what they say about the litter of puppies produced. What I'm getting from this thread is there isn't really a consensus of what matters. Is that true or are there some titles that are generally respected and what most experienced puppy buyers would want to see in a litter? Why wouldn't you want to see some performance and some AKC conformation close in the pedigree of the same litter?


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

chelseah said:


> I started following this thread because as a recent first time puppy buyer and someone completely new to the concept of dog sports, I really didn't realize how much I didn't know about titles and what they say about the litter of puppies produced. What I'm getting from this thread is there isn't really a consensus of what matters. Is that true or are there some titles that are generally respected and what most experienced puppy buyers would want to see in a litter? Why wouldn't you want to see some performance and some AKC conformation close in the pedigree of the same litter?


For the typical pet owner that wants a healthy, good looking, trainable companion, you should look for titles on both ends of the dogs name. Preferably a combination of conformation and other venues. For example, CH Kennel Name Golden CD RA JH. Or GCH Kennel Name Golden CDX RM OA OAJ WCX. I just made these up off the top of my head. Here’s what I hope Eevee has by the end of this year: GCH CH Arkgold Eeveelution CDX CA DS CGC TKN (you can see what she actually has in my signature). There’s any number of title combinations that will produce a well rounded puppy for a good family.

Most of the people replying to this thread are experienced, _involved _people that are looking for more specific things than most people searching for a family pet. They are going to have narrow margins for what they want.

Truly though, a dog doesn’t need super high level titles to make a good family pet. It is still important to look for a variation in titles for several reasons: 1) it shows at least some trainability. 2) titles show the breeder is involved and is not one-dimensional. 3) a combination of titles shows at least some effort toward versatility. This is important for keeping Goldens, Golden. 4) versatility lends itself to an adaptable family pet. A pet that can go on road trips, or get a kid involved in training for competition through 4-H, AKC, or UKC (or CKC if you’re in Canada). 5) arguably the most important job a dog can have is to be a beloved pet. Well rounded dogs make puppies better suited for this extremely important job.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

chelseah said:


> I started following this thread because as a recent first time puppy buyer and someone completely new to the concept of dog sports, I really didn't realize how much I didn't know about titles and what they say about the litter of puppies produced. What I'm getting from this thread is there isn't really a consensus of what matters. Is that true or are there some titles that are generally respected and what most experienced puppy buyers would want to see in a litter? Why wouldn't you want to see some performance and some AKC conformation close in the pedigree of the same litter?


I agree with Maegan, with one caveat... I know several (mostly older) breeders who are only active in the conformation ring (and even there, their dogs go out with professional handlers). As much as I would like to see the breeder putting working titles on their own dogs, if everything else is in place (clearances, conformation titles or CCAs), and if there are several dogs the breeder has _bred _that have gone on to earn working titles under their new owners, I will still keep the breeder on my list of "approved" sources for a potential puppy.


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## Oceanside (Mar 29, 2021)

pawsnpaca said:


> I agree with Maegan, with one caveat... I know several (mostly older) breeders who are only active in the conformation ring (and even there, their dogs go out with professional handlers). As much as I would like to see the breeder putting working titles on their own dogs, if everything else is in place (clearances, conformation titles or CCAs), and if there are several dogs the breeder has _bred _that have gone on to earn working titles under their new owners, I will still keep the breeder on my list of "approved" sources for a potential puppy.


I agree with this, plus if the breeder is a conformation breeder-owner-handler and has an established program (several or more dogs, multiple gens), there is hardly any extra time in the day to be training dogs for multiple other venues. In these cases you may see CD, RN, JH, CGC, etc sprinkled throughout the pedigree but you won’t be seeing alphabet soup on every set of parents.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I didn’t intend to exclude these breeders because I know many of them and respect them. BUT some of them can get a little one dimensional at times. I agree with Lisa that it’s important to check if they have bred dogs that have gotten titles with their owners. Even if they aren’t titling themselves, they are producing dogs with the ability to be titled, and that makes a difference.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

chelseah said:


> I started following this thread because as a recent first time puppy buyer and someone completely new to the concept of dog sports, I really didn't realize how much I didn't know about titles and what they say about the litter of puppies produced. What I'm getting from this thread is there isn't really a consensus of what matters. Is that true or are there some titles that are generally respected and what most experienced puppy buyers would want to see in a litter? Why wouldn't you want to see some performance and some AKC conformation close in the pedigree of the same litter?


People prioritize different values in their dogs, as well as having different opinions of different sports and titling programs. That’s why no consensus. Personally, I’d rather see a variety on the dog, and not one high level title in a single discipline. I definitely want to see both performance and conformation close up in a pedigree.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> I didn’t intend to exclude these breeders because I know many of them and respect them. BUT some of them can get a little one dimensional at times. I agree with Lisa that it’s important to check if they have bred dogs that have gotten titles with their owners. Even if they aren’t titling themselves, they are producing dogs with the ability to be titled, and that makes a difference.


I was thinking about this comment a bit this morning while working and so on.... and I rethought my answer + I guess what I look for in a puppy + keeping favorite sports and all that out of it while answering?

I do like and prefer a very specific look and style of golden and pretty much that is what I've owned since I was a teenager. Medium gold. Smooth top coat and THICK undercoat. Big handsome boy heads with beautiful expressive DARK eyes. Dark DARK DARK pigment. Not excessive coat, but enough coat to make it clear to anyone that you own a golden retriever. Type of balanced structure in the dog where whether he's sitting or standing or whatever - he always knows where his feet should go on his own. The type of dog who is always underfoot or quick to press his big heavy head in your lap.

With temperaments, I want a dog who will live his entire life without ever once growling or showing his teeth. I want to be one of those completely daffy and dippy golden retriever owners at obedience trials who are always getting the border collie people anxious because I never worry (or have to worry) about my dog sharing space with other dogs.

In general, have found these dogs with conformation breeders.

For obedience purposes, it is worth mentioning that people with other breeds do not differentiate between show or performance style goldens when they are competing against us.  All goldens are the same wonderful show off breed that takes all the ribbons.

I have talked to people with show dogs and they are pretty happy about finishing CH titles because the next thing they are focusing on is obedience. It's not common, but it does happen more in our breed than some of the other breeds. Because while the dogs may not have been specifically bred for competing in obedience - they are fun to train.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Megora said:


> I was thinking about this comment a bit this morning while working and so on.... and I rethought my answer + I guess what I look for in a puppy + keeping favorite sports and all that out of it while answering?
> 
> I do like and prefer a very specific look and style of golden and pretty much that is what I've owned since I was a teenager. Medium gold. Smooth top coat and THICK undercoat. Big handsome boy heads with beautiful expressive DARK eyes. Dark DARK DARK pigment. Not excessive coat, but enough coat to make it clear to anyone that you own a golden retriever. Type of balanced structure in the dog where whether he's sitting or standing or whatever - he always knows where his feet should go on his own. The type of dog who is always underfoot or quick to press his big heavy head in your lap.
> 
> ...


Mostly I was just trying to say the minimum to get my point across so that I wouldn’t be writing a book. Lol especially when an answer is directed specifically at pet people asking questions. I try to remember what it felt like to be in their shoes and to not have such narrowed down specifications for what I want in a dog. Now, my list is as long as yours 😅. I tried to hit all the big sports with my example titles in a post of above, but without going straight to the highest level.


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## chelseah (Dec 8, 2020)

ArkansasGold said:


> For the typical pet owner that wants a healthy, good looking, trainable companion, you should look for titles on both ends of the dogs name. Preferably a combination of conformation and other venues. For example, CH Kennel Name Golden CD RA JH. Or GCH Kennel Name Golden CDX RM OA OAJ WCX. I just made these up off the top of my head. Here’s what I hope Eevee has by the end of this year: GCH CH Arkgold Eeveelution CDX CA DS CGC TKN (you can see what she actually has in my signature). There’s any number of title combinations that will produce a well rounded puppy for a good family.
> 
> Most of the people replying to this thread are experienced, _involved _people that are looking for more specific things than most people searching for a family pet. They are going to have narrow margins for what they want.
> 
> Truly though, a dog doesn’t need super high level titles to make a good family pet. It is still important to look for a variation in titles for several reasons: 1) it shows at least some trainability. 2) titles show the breeder is involved and is not one-dimensional. 3) a combination of titles shows at least some effort toward versatility. This is important for keeping Goldens, Golden. 4) versatility lends itself to an adaptable family pet. A pet that can go on road trips, or get a kid involved in training for competition through 4-H, AKC, or UKC (or CKC if you’re in Canada). 5) arguably the most important job a dog can have is to be a beloved pet. Well rounded dogs make puppies better suited for this extremely important job.



Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I don’t think I’ll ever not be more of a pet person, but I am attempting to become more involved in dog sports and training with the puppy I have and would like to add another in two years or so.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

chelseah said:


> Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I don’t think I’ll ever not be more of a pet person, but I am attempting to become more involved in dog sports and training with the puppy I have and would like to add another in two years or so.


Careful- it’s addicting! I quickly went from trick titles to “I want to do rally!” To “I want to do obedience !” To “I want to have a CH/OTCH dog!”


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## chelseah (Dec 8, 2020)

FinnTheFloof said:


> Careful- it’s addicting! I quickly went from trick titles to “I want to do rally!” To “I want to do obedience !” To “I want to have a CH/OTCH dog!”


Lol, I am spending most of my free time on this now! I just finished Hallie’s CGC, and I am taking her to weekly dock training sessions (I know, not considered a “real” sport, but she loves it.) I’m starting Agility Foundations at the end of the month, and spend a long time every day exercising her and working on practicing what we learn at her puppy manners and cgc classes. I had no idea I was going to do any of this when I bought a puppy, but I brought her home and she was so busy and energetic. I wanted to find something fun for both of us to channel all that energy.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

rhondas said:


> Well call me and others who train stupid. I know people who have done it during same timeframe. I have and had no issue. My dog understood the difference....Utility articles are completely different.
> 
> It seems that everyone knows how every skill should be trained and achieved when they have yet to achieve high level titles themselves.


Didn’t call anyone stupid. I don’t happen to agree with teaching both at the same time. Chances are your dog was already catching onto one before you started the other. My dog was JUSTbeginning to teach articles.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

chelseah said:


> Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I don’t think I’ll ever not be more of a pet person, but I am attempting to become more involved in dog sports and training with the puppy I have and would like to add another in two years or so.


Don't let some people scare you away from playing in different sports with your golden.

Conformation is a sport that can be difficult to get into for a variety of reasons.... but all the other sports should open to somebody with a golden retriever. We have the benefit of owning a breed that is pure delight to play in any game with. You do not get that versatility and joy of life in other breeds.

I was chatting with somebody recently who was jumping into obedience with her dog (not a golden) and... she was freaking out because she entered 3 trials without doing any training. I basically told her that at the beginner levels, a very green an untrained dog can't get into too much trouble. That worst thing that could happen is she NQ.... but lots of people NQ all the time at trials and it's not going to end the world, nor will people look down on her and her dog.

Her breed of dog is one that rarely to never shows up in obedience and when it does, it turns heads and makes it very thrilling when they do well. And I assured her that with a lot of kitchen doodles every day, her dog would be fine.

One advantage she has with a conformation dog (meaning her dog has been showing for the last 1-2 years) is her dog is completely unflappable when it comes to other dogs, people, noise, etc. But even people without conformation dogs.... they should do just fine.

The motto for showing in conformation for me is.... you can't win if you don't show up. And for obedience and other sports, aim for the easier titles in the these sports and train with somebody that will teach you to train the upper level stuff like articles and jumping and whatnot. You may never show your dog in utility (although with many changes in obedience since the 90's, it's definitely a lot easier to get dogs into utility than it was before!!!!), but it a lot of fun to teach everything to the dogs and more than that you have the very best dogs around the house when they are trained to that level.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

chelseah said:


> Lol, I am spending most of my free time on this now! I just finished Hallie’s CGC, and I am taking her to weekly dock training sessions (I know, not considered a “real” sport, but she loves it.) I’m starting Agility Foundations at the end of the month, and spend a long time every day exercising her and working on practicing what we learn at her puppy manners and cgc classes. I had no idea I was going to do any of this when I bought a puppy, but I brought her home and she was so busy and energetic. I wanted to find something fun for both of us to channel all that energy.


Idk why people knock dock diving. It’s so much fun and if the dogs like it, they LOVE it. Eevee literally cries waiting for her turn on the dock.

You keep doing what you’re doing, and you’ll be able to go straight to the top of most breeders’ lists.

And I want to echo something Kate said: if you NQ, you NQ. No one is going to look down on you for it. We NQ’d in obedience last weekend. It was my fault. I was super disappointed of course, but everyone was truly rooting for me and were very encouraging after.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

ArkansasGold said:


> Idk why people knock dock diving. It’s so much fun and if the dogs like it, they LOVE it. Eevee literally cries waiting for her turn on the dock.


I don't know either. I have been doing it with my dogs for years. It's a great way to get them to love water and a good reward on a hot day after yard work. 
Making an event or "sport" out of it? Kind of silly IMO but if it gets people out, active and enjoying their dogs, great.


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## xRoan (Jul 7, 2021)

I would consider Dock Diving a sport. It's competitive, takes talent, courage, and training, and builds a bond with your dog. Each competitor must be in solid physical condition, at least the ones actually jumping competitively, and not the ones competing for fun...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> Another dog I was gobsmacked to find out that he got his CH, MH, and even a UD in the same year. And regular normal people - and this dog had a lot of hair. More hair than my dogs! (ETA - dog is a CH MACH UDX MH - owner handled).


Who is that? The only CH MACH UDX MH Goldens are Carbide, Caymus and Ryzin...neither owner-handled to all their titles (Carbide & Ryzin had handlers for the CH, Caymus was professionally handled in field (Sharon Long), breed and agility) and NONE are big, overdone or hairy dogs. I can tell you this because Carbide is the son of my dog Fisher, who was as light coated as a show dog can get, and I have personally groomed and handled Ryzin in the show ring. 

If you're talking about Jay, he is a CH/UD/MH...professionally handled in the show ring, not by his owner...yes he was a big boy but clearly a capable dog


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Is there another thread I'm missing? I haven't looked at GRF in like two weeks. 

To answer the question, everyone has their own goals and I would never devalue someone's goals.
Personally I wish almost all of the new AKC titles were instead certificates of completion rather than titles : dock diving, CGCs, trick dogs, all-breed lure coursing, barn hunt, etc. They take little to no training, any dog can easily do them, they mean little about the dog's trainability, physical ability or his potential contributions to the gene pool. It's a fun thing to do on the weekend with your dog, which is great, but why does it need to be on his permanent record?
Titles I put some weight on are the OS/OD/VC program qualifiers : CH+, UD+, MH+, MACH, TDX+
By "+" I mean titles in that venue of greater accomplishment
None of these can be earned by "winging it" or being a weekend warrior. However, even with impressive titles like these, it doesn't tell you HOW the dog earned it. Plenty of bad dogs have earned these titles. The dog who took 56 tries for a Master Hunter. The dog shown for 5 years for a CH. The TDX that stumbled into it with little training (I know one!). It's still up to you to do your research and see dogs for yourself if you want to breed or buy.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

K9-Design said:


> Is there another thread I'm missing? I haven't looked at GRF in like two weeks.
> 
> To answer the question, everyone has their own goals and I would never devalue someone's goals.
> Personally I wish almost all of the new AKC titles were instead certificates of completion rather than titles : dock diving, CGCs, trick dogs, all-breed lure coursing, barn hunt, etc. They take little to no training, any dog can easily do them, they mean little about the dog's trainability, physical ability or his potential contributions to the gene pool. It's a fun thing to do on the weekend with your dog, which is great, but why does it need to be on his permanent record?
> ...


Enjoy - 


https://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/threads/an-article-i-found-interesting.523802/page-7#post-7905753


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Gotcha.
More ruminating about field work from people who don't do field. 
Or ruminating on show dogs from people who don't show.
Or both.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

K9-Design said:


> Is there another thread I'm missing? I haven't looked at GRF in like two weeks.


There is another that I posted in the 'chit chat' forum that linked a current Canine Chronicle article on show and working gundogs. This thread was started because of that one. There is also another interesting one that I posted asking for help IDing a dog that turned into a cool discussion.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> Who is that? The only CH MACH UDX MH Goldens are Carbide, Caymus and Ryzin...neither owner-handled to all their titles (Carbide & Ryzin had handlers for the CH, Caymus was professionally handled in field (Sharon Long), breed and agility) and NONE are big, overdone or hairy dogs. I can tell you this because Carbide is the son of my dog Fisher, who was as light coated as a show dog can get, and I have personally groomed and handled Ryzin in the show ring.


Was one of the dogs you mention here.

Did not consider excessive in any way, just noting that the boy had coat on him (it was longer than my dog's coat) and it obviously didn't sink him in the water or trip him up on the obstacles. 

I was under the impression he was owner handled the whole way - only saw him being handled by one of his owners.

Other thread was mostly tearing down of the breed as it is today. Which is sad.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Megora said:


> Other thread was mostly tearing down of the breed as it is today. Which is sad.


I didn't see it that way personally. It seemed to me that it was really about how conformation dogs ought to be capable of working as the breed is intended to (in the field) and field dogs should still meet some standard of conformation as well. Everyone here loves the breed. It's really the extremes that are troublesome (conformation dogs with zero instincts, too much bone/fur, field dogs that are poorly built or lacking in certain areas).


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Field goldfish









Conformation goldfish


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Ok that one made me laugh


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

SRW said:


> Field goldfish
> View attachment 892127
> 
> 
> ...


Do we know why the conformation goldfish has a dinosaur mouth? I feel mildly threatened


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hildae said:


> Everyone here loves the breed. It's really the extremes that are troublesome (conformation dogs with zero instincts, too much bone/fur, field dogs that are poorly built or lacking in certain areas).


I think when people have their own biases based on their own dogs, it can be impossible to move them closer to the center where they will even be able to talk kindly and considerately to other dog owners. 

I suppose I have my own biases because I've owned one style of golden for the last 30 years or whatever it has been. I see dogs that resemble vizslas to me and I do not really feel anything about them. It's not about finding dogs to be ugly. It's just ambivalence about dogs where they just weren't bred for the whole thing. 

Dogs that clearly were bred for it all - those I do greatly admire. But their owners do not participate in these conversations. Anney is one owner who does it all with her boys (and now her girlie), but there are others. 

Also people who get neurotic about coats - I seriously want them to borrow a rough collie for a few days. Golden retrievers even with show coats are WONDERFUL and very easy to keep clean and coats sorted. And despite people making a mountain out of a molehill about properly grooming a golden, it is basic.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Megora said:


> I think when people have their own biases based on their own dogs, it can be impossible to move them closer to the center where they will even be able to talk kindly and considerately to other dog owners.
> 
> I suppose I have my own biases because I've owned one style of golden for the last 30 years or whatever it has been. I see dogs that resemble vizslas to me and I do not really feel anything about them. It's not about finding dogs to be ugly. It's just ambivalence about dogs where they just weren't bred for the whole thing.
> 
> ...


I have both a conformation type golden and a field type golden. My conformation girl is definitely much more work grooming wise than my field girl, who I would describe as very "wash and wear". But she looks nothing like a visla, that's for sure. I will say that my dogs fit the stereotypes well, as my conformation type girl has little to no interest in retrieving and my field type girl will go all day on ducks or bumpers etc. You would probably disapprove of my field girl by looks, but she's an amazing dog with drive and talent IMO.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hildae said:


> I have both a conformation type golden and a field type golden. My conformation girl is definitely much more work grooming wise than my field girl, who I would describe as very "wash and wear". But she looks nothing like a visla, that's for sure. I will say that my dogs fit the stereotypes well, as my conformation type girl has little to no interest in retrieving and my field type girl will go all day on ducks or bumpers etc. You would probably disapprove of my field girl by looks, but she's an amazing dog with drive and talent IMO.


Do you have a picture of the conformation type girl?

I dabbled in field with mine 3+ years ago. That was before my younger guy was born, but my 3 year old was a pup at the time. He was FUN to work with for field, but he wanted to eat the birds. Which might be corrected with ecollars, but I was and still am unwilling to go that route. I was going to revisit this year esp with the national being in town and the field stuff being only 30 minutes away, but thanks to a lot of the yacking on this forum, I just feel dread about getting back into it. And I just don't want to anymore. It's not about my dogs. It's never been about the dogs. I had been thinking about going out to watch at least, but that dready depressiveness that surrounds the people in the sport makes me not want to. It stinks because it's not everyone. I have very good friends who play in field or even live breathe etc field - so it's not them. It's just other people.

For obedience - I can't say enough how happy I am with my dogs. Their breeders hear about it often. You do not get that trainability in every dog, so the breeders themselves mattered.

The vizsla comparison for me it the bone or lack of. The heads/expressions obviously are different. We all know a golden retriever just by looking at its face, doesn't matter field or conf.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Not any very good ones. This is a new computer and I haven't transferred very many files over yet. I know she looks light in this photo but she's not in any way close to the dreaded "cream" color.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hildae said:


> View attachment 892139
> Not any very good ones. This is a new computer and I haven't transferred very many files over yet. I know she looks light in this photo but she's not in any way close to the dreaded "cream" color.


Thanks for sharing - have always been curious because you've mentioned both dogs but never shared images.  Both are nice looking dogs.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Megora said:


> Thanks for sharing - have always been curious because you've mentioned both dogs but never shared images.  Both are nice looking dogs.


I don't post many photos, my internet is not what you'd call "high speed" and it can be laggy and annoying to try uploading photos. I did put both of them into the monthly photo contests a couple of times though. I think they're both pretty fantastic. But they are very different from each other!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> I was under the impression he was owner handled the whole way - only saw him being handled by one of his owners.


You are correct...Ryzin is owned by both Marilyn and her grandaughter, Alyssa, and Alyssa certainly did show Ryzin. I don't know if she put all of his points on him. A number of friends handled him in the ring. He is Marilyn's dog, resides with her and she did all of the performance training on him.



> Other thread was mostly tearing down of the breed as it is today. Which is sad.


Ehhh, I don't think so. It's more of people who don't do field work talking about field work, and people who don't show, talking about show dogs, and both making gross generalizations about the opposing party. I honestly wish people would "STAY IN THEIR OWN LANE" or get involved if they want to share an educated opinion.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> Ehhh, I don't think so. It's more of people who don't do field work talking about field work, and people who don't show, talking about show dogs, and both making gross generalizations about the opposing party. I honestly wish people would "STAY IN THEIR OWN LANE" or get involved if they want to share an educated opinion.


I honestly don't think there was very much talking about field work. Or if there was, it was coming from people who live completely in the field world. 

I wish people over there would come out of their closets a day or two - if only to see that there are nice dogs in the show ring. Even that article was overly grim considering our breed is one of the few that covers all the sports and does care about breeding for longevity and health.

Sitting by and listening to somebody have a fit about breeding dogs below 10% COI being something that would "destroy" her breed (not goldens) was a good reminder of where most golden breeders tend to situate themselves.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

I’m not feeling the best myself, so forgive me if I’m remembering incorrectly, but I believe that the article was taking general sporting dogs, and not about just Goldens.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

FinnTheFloof said:


> I’m not feeling the best myself, so forgive me if I’m remembering incorrectly, but I believe that the article was taking general sporting dogs, and not about just Goldens.


How weird.... did I just read comments from other people on FB? I could have sworn the article was about golden retrievers. LOL. Now I really feel bad for commenting when fighting off the worst cold ever!!!! I swear I didn't even have a fever!


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Megora said:


> How weird.... did I just read comments from other people on FB? I could have sworn the article was about golden retrievers. LOL. Now I really feel bad for commenting when fighting off the worst cold ever!!!! I swear I didn't even have a fever!


“*Sporting Breed Conformation Champions Should Also Be Good Field Dogs” 
Sorry did not mean to make this so large and now I don’t know how to fix it! *


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> I had been thinking about going out to watch at least, but that dready depressiveness that surrounds the people in the sport makes me not want to. It stinks because it's not everyone. I have very good friends who play in field or even live breathe etc field - so it's not them. It's just other people.


 "dready depressiveness"?
I have not yet seen that. Running a trial next weekend and I will watch for it.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

K9-Design said:


> Is there another thread I'm missing? I haven't looked at GRF in like two weeks.
> 
> To answer the question, everyone has their own goals and I would never devalue someone's goals.
> Personally I wish almost all of the new AKC titles were instead certificates of completion rather than titles : dock diving, CGCs, trick dogs, all-breed lure coursing, barn hunt, etc. They take little to no training, any dog can easily do them, they mean little about the dog's trainability, physical ability or his potential contributions to the gene pool. It's a fun thing to do on the weekend with your dog, which is great, but why does it need to be on his permanent record?
> ...


I agree with most of the titles you mentioned. Some of them require little to no work. During all the lockdown stuff, I took my girl to some FastCAT events with exactly zero training. All we had was a strong chase instinct. She ended up with a title. I just wanted to get her out because I wasn’t doing agility at the time.The CGC itself is pretty basic and doesn’t take much But A and U do take a little more work. Of course it’s nothing for our dogs that we train from babies. It’s a great accomplishment for people just starting out though! The VHM titles are fairly easy too. Why do I have all the CGC titles? Because I’m an evaluator. If I can’t prove that I can train it, then I shouldn’t judge it either. (My opinion of course) My biggest issue is with people thinking trick dog titles are nothing. Sure, the first levels are pretty easy. But getting up to the top level is fairly challenging! I worked hard on my girl’s TKE title! Pilot will be working his way up too!

I totally agree on the greater accomplishments! Some dog take longer because their handler doesn’t know what they’re doing. (Still waiting for Pilot to fire me!😂) Taking 56 tries to get 1 title does seem like a lot though.


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## Bailey18 (Feb 26, 2019)

DevWind said:


> I'm probably putting this under the wrong category.....
> 
> In another thread the value of different titles was brought up. So which titles hold more value to you as a breeder or buyer?
> 
> I've been working towards a possible Rally Championship and a Utility (obedience) title. So obviously, that's what's important to me right now. And I don't have time and money for field at the moment. My dogs have CCA's because I'm just not a conformation person. We do tricks titles too. They take more training than you think. Winx has an agility title and Pilot could probably get one. But agility isn't my focus right now.


I'll probably be alone in this. But of all the titles we won, my first dog winning his Novice A in three tries stands as one of the proudest days and titles in my life.
I'll never forget the feeling.


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## drdawg (May 31, 2011)

Megora said:


> I just see dogs that are thick skulled and are trained to do X that doesn't require too much thinking on their part.
> 
> I love having a smarter and more sensitive dog. <B


Guess you have not watched any modern field trials in person o think that these field trial dogs are not smart or sensitive. You can watch a dog running a test and see them making decisions inthe process if you pay attention!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

You are not going to muscle a dog into running field trials successfully. It is such a finesse game. Dogs successful at this level have to be incredibly intelligent, intuitive and make good decisions based on their history of sound training. It's not all about energy and power. At every event they have to generalize and understand a concept on a field they have never set foot on, that is different from any other field they have ever run on. This doesn't happen in obedience competition, where every ring is set up identical to the next one and every routine is identical from the weekend before. The challenge of obedience is getting a dog to do the same thing happily and precisely 1,000 times with a non-reinforcing environment. The challenge of field work is to get a dog to see a picture and choose the right response when it is different every time and the external world is a more powerful influence than the handler. Dumb, headstrong dogs can't do this well. You can "see the gears turning" in a good field dog WAY more than any dog in the obedience ring who is operating off of rote memorization and pattern training.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

K9-Design said:


> You are not going to muscle a dog into running field trials successfully. It is such a finesse game. Dogs successful at this level have to be incredibly intelligent, intuitive and make good decisions based on their history of sound training. It's not all about energy and power. At every event they have to generalize and understand a concept on a field they have never set foot on, that is different from any other field they have ever run on. This doesn't happen in obedience competition, where every ring is set up identical to the next one and every routine is identical from the weekend before. The challenge of obedience is getting a dog to do the same thing happily and precisely 1,000 times with a non-reinforcing environment. The challenge of field work is to get a dog to see a picture and choose the right response when it is different every time and the external world is a more powerful influence than the handler. Dumb, headstrong dogs can't do this well. You can "see the gears turning" in a good field dog WAY more than any dog in the obedience ring who is operating off of rote memorization and pattern training.


Excellent post.
An example of the intelligence of field trial retrievers; The “washouts” that don’t have what it takes to compete often go on to do literally every thing a retriever can do. Service dogs, rescue dogs, hunt tests, hunting…….


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

DevWind said:


> I agree with most of the titles you mentioned. Some of them require little to no work. During all the lockdown stuff, I took my girl to some FastCAT events with exactly zero training. All we had was a strong chase instinct. She ended up with a title.


That's exactly my plan with Finn....I know he'll chase a moving plastic bag, especially with one of his people calling him at the other end of the track. I don't intend to do any training before running him.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

My only issue with titles for Fast CAT, dock diving, etc, is when people try to use them as proof that their dog is 'working' or a 'high level performance dog' or as a reason that they should breed the dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> You are not going to muscle a dog into running field trials successfully. It is such a finesse game. Dogs successful at this level have to be incredibly intelligent, intuitive and make good decisions based on their history of sound training. It's not all about energy and power. At every event they have to generalize and understand a concept on a field they have never set foot on, that is different from any other field they have ever run on. This doesn't happen in obedience competition, where every ring is set up identical to the next one and every routine is identical from the weekend before. The challenge of obedience is getting a dog to do the same thing happily and precisely 1,000 times with a non-reinforcing environment. The challenge of field work is to get a dog to see a picture and choose the right response when it is different every time and the external world is a more powerful influence than the handler. Dumb, headstrong dogs can't do this well. You can "see the gears turning" in a good field dog WAY more than any dog in the obedience ring who is operating off of rote memorization and pattern training.


I've always thought that the difference between a sport like field and a sport like obedience is that when you do field work with a dog, you use the traits and instincts that the dog already has and typically when the dogs are out there and they know there's birds out there, all the lights are on and gears ready to go.

In a sport like obedience, have literally had instructors tell me that it doesn't matter if I have a retriever, that I have to teach retrieves the same as if my dog was a pomeranian or a collie, because there will always be a time and situation where the dog will not "want" to go fetch a dumbbell. And basically there's no instincts for going over a jump or whatnot - everything is taught from scratch.

Ideally with a golden - they are everything and have those instincts and gears and all that. But there will always be those goldens who if you point a direction, they will come up and sniff your finger. There's goldens who KNOW there is a tennis ball in the house and they will find it immediately if you ever ask them to get it even if it's deeply buried way out of the way behind a couch and under all kinds of stuff. And there's goldens who will run past a tennis ball that's practically in plain sight repeatedly while searching for the same tennis ball. 🤣 And that's where training and trainability and methods you use makes up the difference. 

With obedience, I am guessing the traits I really REALLY love - most of these are built up from the time the dogs were baby puppies that I brought home and also what the dogs had naturally.... it's that dog who is eagerly trying to guess the next thing I want him to do and is vibrating ready to work. I have that and LOVE IT. It's that Hermionne flinging herself out of her desk to guess the right answer attitude. <B

So imagine my eyes glazing over when I see dogs that just are not focused on their owners at all. Or if they are, it's the barest fraction of what I have and value in my dogs. I acknowledge that a huge chunk of that is foundation and conditioning. But I see that in goldens of all kinds. I do not often see it in other sporting breeds - even very well trained and high level competing ones. It's just very different.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

FinnTheFloof said:


> My only issue with titles for Fast CAT, dock diving, etc, is when people try to use them as proof that their dog is 'working' or a 'high level performance dog' or as a reason that they should breed the dog.


Add “shed dogs” to that list.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

SRW said:


> Add “shed dogs” to that list.


They're included in the 'etc'. Shed hunting takes a bit more skill than FastCAT, though, IMO.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> So imagine my eyes glazing over when I see dogs that just are not focused on their owners at all.


Field trial retrievers have to focus on complex marking tests. They are well aware of their handlers as well, listening for cues and often seeming to have eyes in the back of their head.
On blind retrieves they run confidently in the direction sent, having complete faith in the handler to guide them to the bird.

Consider the fact that your eyes are glazing because you have no understanding of what you are watching.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

I may very well be wrong here, so please correct me- but it seems as though different sports require different levels of handler focus? If a dog running agility had 100% of its focus on its handler, it would crash into obstacles. If a dog running obedience was focused more on the things around it than the handler, it would not be as strong of an obedience competitor. It seems weird to judge dogs running in one sport, against the expectations for a dog running a different sport. 
Am I missing something?


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Megora said:


> *So imagine my eyes glazing over when I see dogs that just are not focused on their owners at all. Or if they are, it's the barest fraction of what I have and value in my dogs.* I acknowledge that a huge chunk of that is foundation and conditioning. But I see that in goldens of all kinds. I do not often see it in other sporting breeds - even very well trained and high level competing ones. It's just very different.


Wait...haven't you ever seen a field dog when they're being handled/cast? You're talking about a dog that might be a hundred plus yards away fixated on their owner, working together and taking directions to locate a fallen bird.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

FinnTheFloof said:


> I may very well be wrong here, so please correct me- but it seems as though different sports require different levels of handler focus? If a dog running agility had 100% of its focus on its handler, it would crash into obstacles. If a dog running obedience was focused more on the things around it than the handler, it would not be as strong of an obedience competitor. It seems weird to judge dogs running in one sport, against the expectations for a dog running a different sport.
> Am I missing something?


You are absolutely correct. Just a side note because I've noticed you are incredibly perceptive and tactful in these conversations, I hope you continue in goldens because with your attitude you could be very successful. The breed needs more individuals that can appreciate all aspects of the golden retriever.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

myluckypenny said:


> You are absolutely correct. Just a side note because I've noticed you are incredibly perceptive and tactful in these conversations, I hope you continue in goldens because with your attitude you could be very successful. The breed needs more individuals that can appreciate all aspects of the golden retriever.


Thank you!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

[QUOTE="SRW, post: 7906349, member: 200648"

Consider the fact that your eyes are glazing because you have no understanding of what you are watching.
[/QUOTE]

In obedience?

every time I ask a simple question or say something as thoughtfully as I can you go charging in with yet more insults that do nothing but remind people why they don’t like dog training people. Which is crappy because I know there are wonderful people who play in field.


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## drdawg (May 31, 2011)

Megora said:


> You said:"I've always thought that the difference between a sport like field and a sport like obedience is that when you do field work with a dog, you use the traits and instincts that the dog already has and typically when the dogs are out there and they know there's birds out there, all the lights are on and gears ready to go."
> 
> In a sport like obedience, have literally had instructors tell me that it doesn't matter if I have a retriever, that I have to teach retrieves the same as if my dog was a pomeranian or a collie, because there will always be a time and situation where the dog will not "want" to go fetch a dumbbell. And basically there's no instincts for going over a jump or whatnot - everything is taught from scratch.
> 
> ...


when you do field work with a dog, you use the traits and instincts that the dog already has and typically when the dogs are out there and they know there's birds out there, all the lights are on and gears ready to go.


Do you think a dog "natural instinct is to diagonal a road, ditch, mound or piece water.....NO it is a trained response. Do you think a dog's natural instinct is to swim 200-300 years to the end of a body of water to pick up a bird that they saw fall....NO, they would rather run around it if they are not trained. Do you think it is a natural instinct to run down wind of a previously retrieved shot flyer to get a bird that is another 200 yards out...NO they need to be trained to carry the line. These trained responses are even more significant in a blind as opposed to a mark where the dog has to carry the obstacles and scents to a bird that they never even saw thrown.


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## drdawg (May 31, 2011)

Megora said:


> OK, comment for you very sensitive tempered field people going WHEEEE over there.
> 
> I commented lightly earlier this morning because I could not resist pecking at somebody who has claimed many times that it's FC titles or field trial accomplishments or nothing. I find that perspective to be bothersome when you consider the fact that other breeds do not have the same chips on their shoulder towards people who are trying... where they themselves never try. Do I personally care? Nope. It is not my sport or dogs that he's dismissing while propping up his own dog or whatever it is he does.
> 
> ...


Partly true because there are only a handful of Fc or AFC OR FC/AFC living Goldens out there!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

drdawg said:


> when you do field work with a dog, you use the traits and instincts that the dog already has and typically when the dogs are out there and they know there's birds out there, all the lights are on and gears ready to go.
> 
> 
> Do you think a dog "natural instinct is to diagonal a road, ditch, mound or piece water.....NO it is a trained response. Do you think a dog's natural instinct is to swim 200-300 years to the end of a body of water to pick up a bird that they saw fall....NO, they would rather run around it if they are not trained. Do you think it is a natural instinct to run down wind of a previously retrieved shot flyer to get a bird that is another 200 yards out...NO they need to be trained to carry the line. These trained responses are even more significant in a blind as opposed to a mark where the dog has to carry the obstacles and scents to a bird that they never even saw thrown.


I'm sorry - I didn't mean to imply that these are not trained dogs and the training doesn't happen. Oh gosh. >.< Just that what you may be looking for in a dog to start with might be different than what somebody might want in a different sport. I was commenting on what Anney said - and please know, I was smiling as I commented. Just saying when picking a dog you want to do X sport with, you have reason to expect something to be there before you get going. It's different depending on the sport.... 

I'm friends with a lot of people who do field and it's horribly hot days like this (87 degrees - yuck) or rainy cold days and they are out there working with the dogs or waiting their turn. It's people like that who really made me want to give it a try even knowing how much they train their dogs and how well trained their dogs are.



Threads like this one, I see people so eager to jump into a fight that they don't stop to see if the other person is even fighting. I'm not. 🥴


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

.


Megora said:


> I dabbled in field with mine 3+ years ago. That was before my younger guy was born, but my 3 year old was a pup at the time. He was FUN to work with for field, but he wanted to eat the birds. Which might be corrected with ecollars, but I was and still am unwilling to go that route. I was going to revisit this year esp with the national being in town and the field stuff being only 30 minutes away, but thanks to a lot of the yacking on this forum, I just feel dread about getting back into it. And I just don't want to anymore. It's not about my dogs. It's never been about the dogs. I had been thinking about going out to watch at least, but that dready depressiveness that surrounds the people in the sport makes me not want to. It stinks because it's not everyone. I have very good friends who play in field or even live breathe etc field - so it's not them. It's just other people.





Megora said:


> every time I ask a simple question or say something as thoughtfully as I can you go charging in with yet more insults that do nothing but remind people why they don’t like dog training people. Which is crappy because I know there are wonderful people who play in field.


I agree, there are many wonderful people at field events.

I have not seen the "dready depressiveness" that deters you from the sport.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

?


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## drdawg (May 31, 2011)

Megora said:


> I'm sorry - I didn't mean to imply that these are not trained dogs and the training doesn't happen. Oh gosh. >.< Just that what you may be looking for in a dog to start with might be different than what somebody might want in a different sport. I was commenting on what Anney said - and please know, I was smiling as I commented.
> 
> I'm friends with a lot of people who do field and it's horribly hot days like this (87 degrees - yuck) or rainy cold days and they are out there working with the dogs or waiting their turn. It's people like that who really made me want to give it a try even know how much they train their dogs and how well trained their dogs are.
> 
> Threads like this one, I see people so eager to jump into a fight that they don't stop to see if the other person is even fighting. I'm not. 🥴


I have no beefs with people who do many or single venues with their dogs. I just have issue with people who, out of ignorance or lack of exposure, state how field dogs are wild, not very smart or all the other negative characteristics that have been assigned over time. Personally I don't have tome to do other venues and admire those that can. I would rather try my best to master one event well than to try to be a jack of all trades. I spend countless hours in rotten as well as beautiful weather and locations getting my dogs to learn to maintain high quality work. I virtually never breed my own litters but I'm thrilled to see some of our offspring from our boys go to pet, hunting, obedience and SAR homes. They adapt well!


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

FinnTheFloof said:


> I may very well be wrong here, so please correct me- but it seems as though different sports require different levels of handler focus? If a dog running agility had 100% of its focus on its handler, it would crash into obstacles. If a dog running obedience was focused more on the things around it than the handler, it would not be as strong of an obedience competitor. It seems weird to judge dogs running in one sport, against the expectations for a dog running a different sport.
> Am I missing something?


Sort of wrong, sort of right. Agility, OB, and hunt all require that the dog is paying close attention to its handler.

In OB heeling, ideally, you want the heel to look like a dance in which the handler is the leading partner and the dog the follower, but the cues are so subtle, it looks like the team is moving in unison without a follower or leader, just like in a good human pair of dancers. It requires the dog is completely focused on the handler and ignoring everything around him to avoid missing the subtle cues.

In a good agility team, the dog is extremely focused on its handler, much more so than you might think as an observer. The dog has to know which obstacle to take next. He can't read the numbers on the course, so he has to rely on the person to "tell" (more often give a body cue) where to go. Dogs have a wider field of peripheral vision than humans do, because their eyes are more angled to the side of their head. They also hear the handler's footfalls. Dogs, as a rule, process body cues faster than verbal cues. They not only need to know where to go next; they usually need that information a jump ahead so they can switch leads in time. (When dogs spin before or after a jump in agility, it is usually because they are leading with the wrong foot and are trying to adjust.) In a good agility team, the human handler has to be aware of what her (the handler's) body cues are telling the dog to do and whether she is giving the information in time. The reason good agility trainers are EXTREMELY reluctant to ever correct a dog for taking the wrong obstacle is that, more often than not, the handler has given the wrong cue or given the cue too late for the dog to adjust. A dog given bad cues and eager to please will learn to slow down to make sure that he is reading his person correctly and he may even angle his head towards the handler to get a better view, which will slow him down even more. Once a dog gets in the habit to slowing down to adjust to the handler's slow/bad cues, it is very, very hard to get that speed back. My first agility dog, a speed-demon of a standard poodle, successfully learned to slow down to adjust to my slowness, and that was back in the day (mid-1990s) when agility trainers would actually advise a handler to get their dog to go slower. (No good agility trainer would ever give that advice today.) 

In hunt/field, a dog obviously has to pay attention to the whistles and casts on a blind. The dog should also be able to heel nicely to the mat. The criteria for the heeling to the mat are much less stringent than in competitive OB, but, in some ways, are harder for the dog to adhere to. The dog is normally very excited and eager to get to the mat. The ground is often uneven, or rocky, or sloping. The handler may be well past his/her glory days of youth and be worried about slipping or stumbling. A dog that heels well to the mat is, like the agility dog, very aware of where the handler is using peripheral vision and hearing but is also looking forward scanning the layout for the mat and the guns. Some hunt/field trainers will say that OB dogs are trained to pay too close attention to the handler. If only! Believe me, a competitive OB dog is NOT going to be looking at its handler on the way to mat.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

drdawg said:


> I have no beefs with people who do many or single venues with their dogs. I just have issue with people who, out of ignorance or lack of exposure, state how field dogs are wild, not very smart or all the other negative characteristics that have been assigned over time. Personally I don't have tome to do other venues and admire those that can. I would rather try my best to master one event well than to try to be a jack of all trades. I spend countless hours in rotten as well as beautiful weather and locations getting my dogs to learn to maintain high quality work. I virtually never breed my own litters but I'm thrilled to see some of our offspring from our boys go to pet, hunting, obedience and SAR homes. They adapt well!


Quite honestly - the only goldens that I've seen who are bred for performance.... they come from obedience breeders. Yes, those same breeders are using field lines, but greater purpose of these dogs is future OTCH's. Meaning, there isn't a maybe about these dogs becoming OTCH's - they WILL become OTCH's. A lot of it is the dogs who have all the traits you want - very eager to work, willing to repeat over and over and over, learns quickly and you can keep building foundations without getting stuck on very early problems. A lot of it is the knowledge and experience of the handlers - who are not out there dabbling or giving it a go with their first dog and bound to be satisfied if the dog gets that person's first CDX or first UD or first UDX. These are serious trainers who literally know the road map to OTCH so well they don't need even need to look at the map anymore. <B

I have not seen field goldens (like real ones) in training classes - maybe I saw only one ever? And this was a dog that died young from cancer and had other serious problems. Fast forward to today, I wonder if it was NCL which really is terrible. This dog made the performance bred dogs I mention above look slow when she was retrieving. Working on obedience was not the same, but her owner was not an experienced obedience person so may have been handling.

I should mention that I have also seen dogs who are not very flashy or high scoring when it comes to obedience, who I've heard were all lights on and serious business when it came to field. Goldens and labs...

Heck, I've also met goldens who got titles in all sports, but who only had fun in agility according to their owners. 

I have seen some wild goldens who are also OTCH dogs. According to somebody on this forum who enjoys insulting people and their dogs, these are just badly trained dogs. 


ETA - please disregard. I was going to just delete, but I didn't want people to just assume I said something mean.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

PalouseDogs said:


> Sort of wrong, sort of right. Agility, OB, and hunt all require that the dog is paying close attention to its handler.
> 
> In OB heeling, ideally, you want the heel to look like a dance in which the handler is the leading partner and the dog the follower, but the cues are so subtle, it looks like the team is moving in unison without a follower or leader, just like in a good human pair of dancers. It requires the dog is completely focused on the handler and ignoring everything around him to avoid missing the subtle cues.
> 
> ...


Thank you!
Sorry, did not intend to knock agility at all, but I don’t feel that I know enough about field work to make a statement about it so agility seemed like a safer bet.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

PalouseDogs said:


> The dog should also be able to heel nicely to the mat.


I suppose they should and some dogs do. If your dog hammers the marks the judges never remember how he heeled to the line.
This is part of knowing your dog. Some very headstrong dogs need discipline all the way to the line. Others are able to focus on the marks better if they are more relaxed. There are many of both and all sorts in between. Both my current dogs will be in front of me walking to the line, but they are looking for the gun stations. I have no problem with that, if they were simply charging to the line I would not allow it.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> I've always thought that the difference between a sport like field and a sport like obedience is that when you do field work with a dog, you use the traits and instincts that the dog already has and typically when the dogs are out there and they know there's birds out there, all the lights are on and gears ready to go.


NOPE

It's not all instincts. 
YES we actively choose dogs who love birds, have good eyes and can mark, and want to swim, and all that jazz. The retriever breeds are uniquely designed to have good eyesight and the seek-and-find and bring-back-to-the-pack parts of the carnivore hunter behavior chain is intensified. They are physically suited to their jobs, long legs and boat-like bodies to breathe easily while running and be buoyant. They are also incredibly biddable and pliable because their job is working alone with their owner to hunt and taking directions from the hunter, not independently finding game away from the hunter like a spaniel, setter, pointer or hound. That's that "non-slip retriever" we hear about.

In the basic level field events (Junior Hunter & WC) the dog IS basically running off instinct. It's very little training involved, and all the handler does is let them go and grab the bird when the dog gets back with it. The dog is on it's own to find the bird.

In advanced field work (Senior on up) it's a whole nuther ballgame. YES we expect the dog to mark and find the birds with their own faculties. They also have to learn marking concepts, see pictures formed by the terrain, and understand how to properly navigate these factors to successfully retrieve the mark. That is ANYTHING BUT instinct. The only instinct there is to be biddable to the handler. In fact, most of what we ask them to do is completely UNnatural and totally against their instincts. Sit quietly until sent? No way, they want to take off immediately. Stop and take direction from the handler? No, they want to run around like an idiot and scare up birds. Take a straight line through water 2 feet off shore? Well that's dumb, it's way faster to run around. Those are just the easy examples. And remember, in competition, they are asked to remember these things on new ponds and fields they've never seen, that are completely different than any other place they have been. They have ten seconds to evaluate their surroundings and understand what is expected, to generalize the concept and apply it. FAR from instinctual. But they get so good at this, experienced dogs can "know" a test without seeing a single bird be thrown. Ask me how many times Bally has headswung off the long gun before it was in the air, only to absolutely step on this retired bird when sent for it. He recognized the setup and knew which way the bird was going to be thrown, because he's seen it over and over and over in training, albeit at a different field, but one look at the guns and he knows the setup.

When I say you can "see gears turning" with a good advanced field dog, I don't mean they have a big motor and they crash through the field headlong after birds.
I mean you can tell the dog is thinking, evaluating, adjusting and being very careful about their choices in how they retrieve. They will correct their lines if they realize they aren't making the right choice, en route to a bird. It's quite amazing actually. 



> So imagine my eyes glazing over when I see dogs that just are not focused on their owners at all. Or if they are, it's the barest fraction of what I have and value in my dogs. I acknowledge that a huge chunk of that is foundation and conditioning.


I see what you're saying, and understand. Field dogs (both labs & goldens, field trial pedigrees) CAN be very environmental and reactive. It CAN help them in the field. It can hurt them in obedience. What makes them see every inch of a bird 400 yards away also means they notice a shadow on the ground in the obedience ring that distracted them when other dogs didn't pay any attention to it. They may be more fight-or-flight reactive, to a startling sound, which is not great when you want a bombproof obedience ring dog. A friend of mine bought a field labrador for obedience and can tell you all about this....and she won the NOC with him. BUT --- a lot of that is training. If you buy an animal like that you have to mold him into the picture of what you want. Maybe these people just didn't want that picture. They wanted to do field work and dabbled in obedience. Who knows. 

My BF's older Golden is field trial pedigree. She is the LEAST trainable and biddable dog I've trained. You train her an hour to get a minute's improvement. She's impulsive, reactive, spastic, lightening fast and literally cannot think straight when she is amped up. She is VERY DIFFICULT to train in the field. She has a very mediocre field record to go along with that. She didn't have the best foundation of training (basics glanced over), and she literally loses her MIND at field events and marks like garbage. It's REALLY difficult to get anywhere with this dog. My show goldens are a thousand times easier to train in the field. She had her CDX with all first places and high scores before she was two. Obedience was so boring, and so non-rewarding, that she could think straight and was happy to do tricks for treats. Very deceiving!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Anney - thank you for this response.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

K9-Design said:


> Take a straight line through water 2 feet off shore? Well that's dumb, it's way faster to run around.


I have always wondered why that’s a rule. I can’t get my engineer’s brain to wrap around making them do something that is *less *efficient.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

ArkansasGold said:


> I have always wondered why that’s a rule. I can’t get my engineer’s brain to wrap around making them doing something that is *less *efficient.


That's what everyone says! (Me too) I was told that if you're just hunting with a dog and will never do trials/tests, you want them to do the efficient thing (run around the water if possible etc) but if you're doing trials or tests, you want them to play by the "rules of the game" so to speak.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

ArkansasGold said:


> I have always wondered why that’s a rule. I can’t get my engineer’s brain to wrap around making them doing something that is *less *efficient.


It isn't actually a "Rule". I think most understand that retriever field trials consist of marking tests and blind retrieves. In a marking test, there is no line to a mark. We teach dogs to run a straight path to a mark because that is their best chance of finding it without having to hunt. Judges place the marks carefully according to the terrain, wind, cover, water, etc. With well placed birds, dogs that cheat cover of fail to fight the factors will put themselves in a poor position and are less likely to find the mark. 
Blind retrieves are a test of control. There is a "corridor" to a blind and you need to keep your dog in it, "Challenge" the blind. Part of that corridor may involve swimming down a shore. Staying within 2 feet of shore is not a requirement but it looks impressive and you are being judged relative to the field.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Megora said:


> In a sport like obedience, have literally had instructors tell me that it doesn't matter if I have a retriever, that I have to teach retrieves the same as if my dog was a pomeranian or a collie, because there will always be a time and situation where the dog will not "want" to go fetch a dumbbell. And basically there's no instincts for going over a jump or whatnot - everything is taught from scratch.


There has never been a time where either of mine didn't "want" to retrieve! With Pilot it does not matter what it is. We had a judge drop her pen in the ring. It was ALL he could do not to pick it up for her! Doesn't matter what's in the way. They will go get it and bring it back? Was it due to my training? Maybe.....I started when they were babies. By the time they were 7 or 8 months old, they were learning to wait to be sent. I think a lot of it is instinct though. The very worst thing for them is not allowing them to retrieve! Throwing it right the first time is imperative with them!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I haven't read all 7 pages, but to answer the original question, for myself and myself only, I place value only on two categories of titles: conformation and hunt/field titles. And I mean all of them, in conformation from the CCA up, and in hunt/field from the JH up. Any other titles may be fun or impressive, but not something I personally judge a Golden Retriever on.

Beyond that, I see that people are arguing their pet arcane issues, and I have no desire to jump into the middle of that. In those things, everyone is right, everyone is wrong.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

Megora said:


> The FC goldens - I do not see many in obedience. Talking specific lines that are producing current FC dogs. Like Semper, etc.]
> 
> FYI, I have a Semper golden, she is the littermate to Mulligan, FC Maci's father and she obtained an OTCH quickly. She is extremely focused and biddable and an amazing field dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

DanaRuns said:


> Beyond that, I see that people are arguing their pet arcane issues, and I have no desire to jump into the middle of that. In those things, everyone is right, everyone is wrong.


No, it's called find something very random to be angry about and pile on. 

Meanwhile - I just gotta say.... any time you have people doing stuff with their dogs and being thrilled with everything their dogs are and can be. It's the bees knees.

BTW - speaking of titles. 

I was sitting down last night doing monthly bills with my mom (I'm her accountant, caregiver, etc). We finished up by 11PM and she was going through her junk mail pile (catalogs, flyers, etc) and handing those over to me to throw away. One stack in particular, she told me was all trash. <= fortunately I was paying attention before putting the stack in the garbage bag I was holding. I saw the corner of an envelope that looked familiar. I was yanking the AKC cert for my Jovi's CD out from the rest of the stack in a heartbeat and giving my mom an aghast look. 

My mom asked me if I was going to put the cert up in a frame and I kinda shrugged that off. The CD's where we struggled or had to overcome a hardship to get them (the novice A CD Danny with his limping issues, CD after 3 years with Jacks with his sound phobias and utter refusal to stay, etc) - those got frames. Because the harder they were, the more I valued that title when we finally got them. But it took 2 Saturdays about 2 or 3 weeks apart to get Jovi's CD and all without actively attending obedience classes in the last 2 years because of covid. I have his high in trial ribbon hanging on my home grooming table and it will probably always hang there unless we win more of those darling things and then I will probably hang those up on the wall behind the grooming table. The paper title itself - I'm sticking in the file next to his other obedience title and we are focusing on getting the next one. That title if/when we get it will go up in a frame <B


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Megora said:


> No, it's called find something very random to be angry about and pile on.
> 
> 
> 
> My mom asked me if I was going to put the cert up in a frame and I kinda shrugged that off. The CD's where we struggled or had to overcome a hardship to get them (the novice A CD Danny with his limping issues, CD after 3 years with Jacks with his sound phobias and utter refusal to stay, etc) - those got frames. Because the harder they were, the more I valued that title when we finally got them. But it took 2 Saturdays about 2 or 3 weeks apart to get Jovi's CD and all without actively attending obedience classes in the last 2 years because of covid. I have his high in trial ribbon hanging on my home grooming table and it will probably always hang there unless we win more of those darling things and then I will probably hang those up on the wall behind the grooming table. The paper title itself - I'm sticking in the file next to his other obedience title and we are focusing on getting the next one. That title if/when we get it will go up in a frame <B


lve disagreed with a couple of statements, but I’m not angry about what has said. It’s their opinion and they’re entitled to it. I was honestly trying to see what was important to the majority. I’m currently working on a few titles. RAE, Master, and Utility. These types of titles are what’s important and realistic for me right now. He has a CCA so that’s as far as I’ll go in conformation.

As for what to do with your title certificates, get yourself a 3 ring binder and some page protectors. Each of mine has their own binder for their specific paperwork. It has all their clearances, titles, and registration papers. If anyone wanted to see any Of Pilots paperwork, I could just pull his folder show them everything.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

DevWind said:


> As for what to do with your title certificates, get yourself a 3 ring binder and some page protectors. Each of mine has their own binder for their specific paperwork. It has all their clearances, titles, and registration papers. If anyone wanted to see any Of Pilots paperwork, I could just pull his folder show them everything.



This is a really great idea.

Currently I have a mixture of clearances and titles on my dresser and I'm not honestly sure where I put their registration papers.... ! Might be up there too. It would be nice if I could get a little more organized.

One of the puppy people wanted to have copies of all of Bertie's clearances just to keep (everything was posted on OFA) - and that put me in a panic back then searching for them on the dresser, glove compartment in the car, top shelf in my closet.... !


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