# Risk Ingredients Long sorry



## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

I am trying to confirm this, eps. for Natural Balance. I have contacted NB but can't get past the person who answers the phone and I have e-mailed Whole Dog Journal but have gotten no reply. It is very important to me becuase of Morgan's seizures. TIA





"Careful pet owners closely scan the list of ingredients looking for possible health risks. Thanks to our friends at AAFCO and the FDA, risk ingredients might not be listed on your pet food label, yet it could be in your pets’ food. 

Health conscious pet owners, many=2 0that have learned the hard way to be cautious of pet foods, closely scrutinize their dogs’ or cats’ food ingredient list. They have become educated to the risks of some ingredients commonly used in dog foods and cat foods. However, thanks to lax pet food regulations, additives such as chemical preservatives that are added to the bulk ingredient prior to pet food manufacturing are NOT listed on the label. 

Case in point, meet the pet food, pet treat, AND pet food ingredient preservative ethoxyquin. I have a loud alarm bell that sounds off when I hear this preservative mentioned. In essence, ethoxyquin is responsible for TruthaboutPetFood.com. This chemical preservative, according to my beloved veterinarian Dr. Bruce Catlett (who knew more about pet food in 1991 than most do today), was responsible for the bone cancer of my eight year old best friend Samantha; a ‘Rotten-weiler’. Dr. Catlett shed the first light of truth to me in 1991; he explained that ethoxyquin extended the shelf life of pet foods yet it was a high risk preservative.

Although I trusted my vet completely, it was difficult for me to believe back then that the #1 pet food in the U.S. would have such a lethal chemical in it. So, I called them. I’ll never forget what I was told. The pet food company that I so completely and blindly trusted, told me the dog food had a shelf life of 25 years! That’s a dog food remaining ‘freshE2 for more than 3 times as long as my dog lived thanks to a lethal chemical. 

Today, you’ll rarely see ethoxyquin listed on a pet food label. Most pet food manufacturers add natural mixed tocopherols to preserve ingredients. However, because of the likelihood of rancidity of fish meal (ground whole fish and/or fish parts), many fish meal suppliers add ethoxyquin prior to ingredient delivery at the pet food manufacturing plant. And guess what? That ethoxyquin added to the fish meal, *because it wasn’t added by the pet food manufacturer, is not required to be listed within the ingredients on the label. *

Many dog foods and cat foods that state ‘Natural Preservatives’ on their labels, websites, and/or advertising contain fish meal preserved with ethoxyquin; a very un-natural chemical.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM states _“Ethoxyquin is banned from nearly all human food products (except certain spices) due to its cancer-causing properties. Most manufacturers have changed to less-controversial preservatives, such as Vitamin E (tocopherol), but ethoxyquin is still used in many "prescription" foods. Ethoxyquin is required for imported fish meal, a prominent ingredient in many pet foods, but not listed on the label; there is a natural substitute (NaturOx) but it is expensive and few companies use it.”_ http://www.petfoodstory.com/pets/nutrition/holistic-vets-guide-to-pet-food-additives-preservatives-contaminants.htm

The EPA states _“The primary target organs affected by ethoxyquin in experimental animals are the liver and the kidneys.”_ http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/0003fact.pdf 

However, our good friends at AAFCO and the FDA (pun intended) strongly believe ethoxyquin is safe in animal foods. In a paper authored by David A. Dzanis published for the Animal Feed Safety Branch of the FDA: _ “Although used in some animal feeds since 1959, first accounts of purported adverse effects were received by FDA in 1988. Since that time, a notable number of consumer inquiries have been received. Despite the fact that ETQ (ethoxyquin) is approved for use in all animal feeds, reports of adverse reactions have been almost exclusively in dogs. Of types of dog food, the “premium” brands of dry dog foods are most often incriminated. However, no correlation of adverse effects with age, gender or breed of dog is apparent. The reported signs include liver, kidney, thyroid and reproductive dysfunction, teratogenic and carcinogenic effects, allergic reactions and a host of skin and hair abnormalities. There have been anecdotal reports that some of these conditions have resolved after replacement of the ETQ-containing diet with a diet thought to be free of ETQ. However, because of inconsistencies in labeling of pet food products containing ETQ secondary to its inclusion in other ingredients, the ETQ-free status of the replacement diets cannot be reliably established._
_The original data upon which FDA approved the use of ETQ in animal feeds included a 1-year chronic toxicity study in dogs. Subsequent to the original food additive petition, a 5-year, multigenerational study in dogs was conducted by the manufacturer. The study failed to demonstrate adverse effects of ETQ at 300 ppm of food.” _
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/121/11_Suppl/S163.pdf

*By the way, the FDA based it approval of ethoxyquin in animal feeds on ‘research’ conducted by Monsanto; the manufacturer of ethoxyquin. *

Per Department of Homeland Security regulations, bulk fishmeal is required to be preserved at 400 ppm; ethoxyquin is provided as an example preservative. Section 148.04-9 (c)_ “At the time of production of the material, it must be treated with at least 400 ppm antioxidant (ethoxyquin); in the case where the material contains more than 12 percent fat by weight, it must be treated with at least 1000 ppm antioxidant (ethoxyquin) at the time of production.” _http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/octqtr/46cfr148.04-9.htm

Thank goodness, there are many pet food manufacturers that have chosen to avoid ethoxyquin regardless of the cost. I have this past week (9/3/09) emailed requests to dozens of pet food manufacturers (every manufacturer reviewed in Petsumer Report) asking if their fish meal ingredients (fish meal, ocean fish meal, salmon meal, and so on) are preserved with ethoxyquin. If they were not, I asked to know the specific method of fish meal preservation.

As of the writing of this article (9/5/09), the following are the companies that have responded.
*Artemis Pet Foods*
_Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”_
*Breeders-Choice – AvoDerm Natural Pet Food*
_“Breeder's Choice does not use ethoxyquin in any of it's foods. However, because it is found in the food chain, trace amounts cannot easily be eliminated.”_
*Blue Buffalo Pet Foods*
_“Fish meal is preserved naturally with Naturox.”_
*By Nature Pet Foods*
_“Fish meal is preserved with natural tocopherols.”_
California Natural, Innova, Evo Pet Foods
_“Fish meal is preserved with Vitamin E and mixed tocopherols.”_
*Canidae/Felidae Pet Foods*
_Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”_
*Castor & Pollux Pet Foods*
_“Fish meal is preserved with Naturox.”_
*Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover’s Soul Pet Foods*
_Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”_
*Diamond Pet Foods*
_Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”_
*Evolve Natural Pet Foods*
_“Fish meal is preserved with mixed tocopherols.”_
*Flint River Ranch Pet Food*
_“Fish meal is flash frozen until time of manufacturing; no preservative needed.”_
*Fromm Family Pet Foods*
_“Fish meal is preserved with citric acid.”_
*Kumpi Pet Foods*
_“Fish meal is preserved with tocopherols.”_
*Merrick Pet Foods*
_“Fish meal preserved with mixed tocopherols.”_
*Natural Balance Pet Foods*
_Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”_
*Nature’s Logic Pet Food*
_“Fish meals are preserved with natural tocopherols and rosemary.”_
*Newman’s Own Pet Foods*
_“Fish meals preserved with Vitamin E.”_
*Petcurean Pet Foods*
_“Fish Meal is preserved with Vitamin E..”_
*Premium Edge Pet Foods*
_Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”_
*Solid Gold Pet Foods*
_“Fish meal preserved with tocopherols.”_
*Taste of the Wild Pet Foods*
Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”
*Timberwolf Organics Pet Foods*
_“Fish meal ingredients are preserved with Vitamin E.”_
*TLC Pet Foods*
_“Fish meal is preserved with tocopherols.”_

Many other pet food manufacturers were contacted, no response as of 9/5/09. The holiday weekend could be the delay in their responses. 

Fish meals, NOT fish ingredients are a concern with ethoxyquin. As example, ‘salmon’ listed on a pet food label would not be an ethoxyquin preserved ingredient; ‘salmon meal’ might be. The ONLY way to know is to ask the manufacturer specifically. Warning however, some responses I have received did not directly answer my ethoxyquin question. As example, one manufacturer told me _“we do not add ethoxyquin to any of our pet foods”_. This response does NOT tell me if their supplier might add ethoxyquin. I am waiting for their follow up response."
:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Very true and the topic of big concern on another board I'm on. The admin there is a Cornell grad and canine nutritionist. She actually called umpteen companies to verify the use of ethoxyquin. The loop hole is that the manufacturers do no have to disclose and can claim no ethox. if they did not add it. However, many many suppliers do add it, so the question becomes do you OR ANY OF YOUR SUPPLIERS use ethox. in your fish meals.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Every one is entitled to choose their own comfort level concerning the ingredients in dog foods. For myself, there is no way that I would daily feed my dogs any food with "fish meal". And I choose not to feed kibble that is primarily fish-based. At times I may feed a food with something like "herring meal" that's fairly far down on the list of ingredients plus I've researched the company.

With so many brands and formulas to choose from, a consumer can afford to be picky about ingredients.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

So then you do think this is true and I shouldn't use the Natural Balance Fish?? I sent a copy of this to the Whole Dog Journal. I can't believe they don't have a problem with it. I really trusted WDJ and their reviews, I won't any more.! I need to feed Morgan a fish based grain free food as per Dr. Jean Dodds to help her liver deal with all the seizure meds. Everything I can find without fish meal has Rosemary, which is a trigger for her seizures. This is a nightmere !!


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Have you tried to contact them by email? I ask because when I contacted them about the recall several years ago, by email they were very prompt in getting back to me. They were very nice and offered to pay for any medical bills if Beau had any issues from the food (which he didnt). If they dont answer your question to your satisfaction then you can switch to a different brand or flavor.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

The Fromm 4 star line has 2 fish varieties and scanning the ingredient listing I don't see any rosemary. Perhaps one of them would work . http://www.frommfamily.com/products-fs-d-d-salmon.php They are one of a handful of companies I trust, and their fish meal (salmon, whitefish, etc) contains no ethox.

If you do decide to contact them, be sure to ask if the suppliers use ethoxyquin on the fish meals.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

That's just great. I feed mine NB Sweet Potato and Fish. How are we supposed to find a good food that's safe?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Can you tell us where you found that report?


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

I got it from another GR forum member This is the author:
*Risk Ingredients Not Listed on Pet Food Labels*



By Susan Thixton
Published Yesterday
Pet Food Ingredients
Rating:



































Unrated 

*  Susan Thixton*



View all articles by Susan Thixton


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> The Fromm 4 star line has 2 fish varieties and scanning the ingredient listing I don't see any rosemary. Perhaps one of them would work . http://www.frommfamily.com/products-fs-d-d-salmon.php They are one of a handful of companies I trust, and their fish meal (salmon, whitefish, etc) contains no ethox.
> 
> If you do decide to contact them, be sure to ask if the suppliers use ethoxyquin on the fish meals.


That might work, but I am looking for a white fish and grain free if possible. I have spent days on this!!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

They've got a grain free called Surf n Turf with salmon http://www.frommfamily.com/products-fs-d-d-grain-free-surf-and-turf.php


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> They've got a grain free called Surf n Turf with salmon http://www.frommfamily.com/products-fs-d-d-grain-free-surf-and-turf.php


You're really trying , thank you. I need fish only.
I have found some possibilities with some of the smaller companies, but you know what, I don't trust anybody any more. I would cook for her (don't cook for me but I would for her!) but with one of the meds she takes, every thing has to be so consistent, I get concerned I wouldn't be able to keep up. Sodium is a really big deal for her. I feed NB right now, Venison and Sweet Potato , but I am so angry at them right now, I really want to change. Maybe I should offer a reward if someone can find us a food??? LOL
She loved Canine Caviar, but it's $120 a bag !!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Just be careful...many of the manufacturers could only guarantee me that their foods were not preserved with ethoxyquin from the immediate source. They could not however guarantee me that their immediate sources source, did not.

I finally switched Shadow from the fish formulas. I switched him to CN Lamb and Rice, but I'm sure there may be something bad about that, too. I gives me a headache!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Did you read this link?
http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/ar...lies-to-ethoxyquin-in-fish-meal-question.html

Flint River Ranch Pet Food
“Fish meal is flash frozen until time of manufacturing; no preservative needed.”
Fromm Family Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved with citric acid.”
Kumpi Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved with tocopherols.”

I'd still ask about their suppliers!


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

Are we supposed to have to do all this??? I mean really, I love my pets like children (I know I am not supposed to say that !) and I would do anything for them. But all these questions and research just to find a safe food??? Then all the decisions on vaccines and heartworm treatments. It feels overwhelming to me.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I special ordered artemis, frsh mix weight management, for my other golden kooper.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

This scared the crap out of me. The only food I can safely (?) feed Gunner is Nature's Variety Prairie Salmon. I cannot afford for him to have another allergic reaction with a food change. I will check with NV but I'll be surprised if they say their salmon meal has the preservative.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Debles said:


> This scared the crap out of me. The only food I can safely (?) feed Gunner is Nature's Variety Prairie Salmon. I cannot afford for him to have another allergic reaction with a food change. I will check with NV but I'll be surprised if they say their salmon meal has the preservative.


 
Natures Variety is on all the safe lists I've seen Deb


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

When I called Natural Balance, they denied they they used any thing either. But then said they couldn't be responsible for what their suppliers did. Great, just great :no:


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Oh Thanks Betty!!! What a relief! i did email them. I may have questioned them about this before.

Claire Friend,
My Gunner had a horrible allergic reaction to NB fish and sweet potato. I never figured out what it was but he lost 15 pounds and most of his hair.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Claire's Friend said:


> When I called Natural Balance, they denied they they used any thing either. But then said they couldn't be responsible for what their suppliers did. Great, just great :no:


That's the answer you will get if you ask about suppliers. If you do not ask the direct question, then they carefully word their responses.

This link was probably already posted. It's outdated, but they do list some information that can be used as a resource to find the suppliers. I'm more concerned about the integrity of all of their suppliers. http://www.thepetfoodlist.com/petfoods_pg1.htm


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

I know it's handier to be able to feed a kibble, but if you don't find one that suits your needs the Honest Kitchen Preference food may be a possibility. It's a dehydrated grain free base food that needs reconstituting with water and then have meat added to it. You could buy your own fish to add and know the source of it. The Honest Kitchen people do quite a bit of consulting for special dietary needs. My Bentley does well with the HK Thrive formula. Here is a link to the Preference page: http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/preference/


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Kopper gets honest kitchen 3 times a week, then C.N , i was looking for a third food, .


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

What about Acana Pacifica?


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

Claire's Friend:

Sounds as if Acana Pacifica & Wellness Core Ocean might be options. Just beware that many of these have much more fat and protein than what you are currently feeding, so you might want to first verify with your vet that that would be okay for her liver.

There are also several canned foods that feature only fish (again, many are higher in protein & fat and I'm guessing sodium, so check first).

The Honest Kitchen w/ fish was a good suggestion. Also, if it comes to it (and you're willing to do the food preparation), don't be intimidated to seek out a certified veterinary nutrionist to come up with a homemade diet that meets her needs. It's not as overwhelming as you imagine as the nutrionist will come up with everything to meet your girl's needs and you'll have more control over food quality (and quantity of certain ingredients, i.e. sodium). I've known dogs with special dietary needs that have done very well on such diets. Besides, it can't be as much of an expense or headache as feeding manufactured dog foods.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Claire's Friend said:


> This chemical preservative, according to my beloved veterinarian Dr. Bruce Catlett (who knew more about pet food in 1991 than most do today), was responsible for the bone cancer of my eight year old best friend Samantha; a ‘Rotten-weiler’. Dr. Catlett shed the first light of truth to me in 1991; he explained that ethoxyquin extended the shelf life of pet foods yet it was a high risk preservative.


This is a horrible, irresponsible thing for a vet to say to an owner (if it's in fact true that the vet said exactly this). Rotties (like other large dogs) get bone cancer at an elevated rate, regardless of food choice. To blame it solely on a single ingredient is not just unscientific but cruel to the poor owner.

There is some limited research connecting ethoxyquin to some kinds of cancer, and I do believe it's an ingredient worth avoiding, but to say that it _caused_ a dog's particular cancer demonstrates a real lack of understanding of the research and of the processes that lead to cancer.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

nixietink said:


> What about Acana Pacifica?


Looked very promising until I read all the ingredients. Because her seizures are triggered by strong smells and tastes , I try and stay really basic. I may just try Cal Nat Fish and Potato. I just wish I could trust these food companies a little bit more.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Natura who makes Cal Nat is one of the few companies I trust. All of their fish meals are e free


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks Betty, that's really good to know .


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I need to know, please, if the info., on artemis, that has been posted, is true, like i said, i have it special ordered.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

goldensrbest said:


> I need to know, please, if the info., on artemis, that has been posted, is true, like i said, i have it special ordered.


 
If Artemis is manufactured by Diamond ( which I think it is), their suppliers do use ethoxyquin in any fish ( named or just "fish") meals. It only applies to MEALS, if it just says named fish, it should be ok.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

It is the fresh weight management mix, this really makes me wonder why WDJ, and dog food project rates it so highly.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

goldensrbest said:


> It is the fresh weight management mix, this really makes me wonder why WDJ, and dog food project rates it so highly.


 
I just pulled out my copy of the Feb WDJ which has the 2010 food listings. I really am surprised to see they rate this food. It does confirm that it is made by Diamond. The artemis website does list it as having salmon meal. Personally, I also find it concerning that it only contains 20% protein.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

This is why I am so upset and frustrated. I have always relied on Whole Dog Journal. I have been getting it ever since it began and now they can't even bother to answer my e-mail. I keep hoping that it is because they are looking into it. But I e-mailed them that "Risk Ingredients" article the day I got my Feb WDJ and saw the list. I don't think it's right that the companies can leave out in the ingredients list, the stuff that their suppliers put in. It shouldn't be this hard !


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

That's the whole issue with the pet food industry. There is very little regulation which leaves everyone with pretty much a hope and prayer. Dr Marion Nestle who wrote Pet Food Politics is coming out with a book later this year on strictly the pet food industry. Should be very interesting and hopefully spur more substantial quality control. In the meantime we are left to our own research to make the best decision we can.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't know how influential the publisher of the publication is, but they seem to hold the copyright on the whole dog journal web site. I always wonder who is backing the source.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Claire's Friend said:


> So then you do think this is true and I shouldn't use the Natural Balance Fish?? I sent a copy of this to the Whole Dog Journal. I can't believe they don't have a problem with it. I really trusted WDJ and their reviews, I won't any more.! I need to feed Morgan a fish based grain free food as per Dr. Jean Dodds to help her liver deal with all the seizure meds. Everything I can find without fish meal has Rosemary, which is a trigger for her seizures. This is a nightmere !!


Some options for you that are grain free - and no fish/no rosemary:
http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/preference/ (add your own meat)

http://www.sojos.com/complete.html - they also have a version you can add meat to - also no fish/no rosemary.

There are others....but there are good options.

Erica


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

MurphyTeller said:


> Some options for you that are grain free - and no fish/no rosemary:
> http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/preference/ (add your own meat)
> 
> http://www.sojos.com/complete.html - they also have a version you can add meat to - also no fish/no rosemary.
> ...


Actually, she wanted a fish formula but one she could be assured that the meal doesn't have ethoxyquin.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I HAVE EMAILED WDJ, ABOUT NOT GETTING MY ISSUES, NOT HEARD FROM THEM ON THAT, i had checked on the dog food analysis, on artemis, think it was 4 star, just not going to get it.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Try emailing the publisher? Their information is on the Internet.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

If anyone is interested, I emailed Natura Pets, here is the response: _"Thank you for contacting Natura Pet Products. Natura Pet Products uses only the highest quality and safest fish in our products, including kibble, canned, and treat products. When our products contain fish meals, they are naturally preserved and are shipped with natural antioxidants that are compliant with United States Coast Guard (USCG) requirements*. We guarantee our ingredients and foods are free from any chemical preservatives such as ethoxyquin, BHA or BHT."_

Sounds good to me!


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Yes, done that, just called them, sopose to be on the way.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

sammydog said:


> If anyone is interested, I emailed Natura Pets, here is the response: _"Thank you for contacting Natura Pet Products. Natura Pet Products uses only the highest quality and safest fish in our products, including kibble, canned, and treat products. When our products contain fish meals, they are naturally preserved and are shipped with natural antioxidants that are compliant with United States Coast Guard (USCG) requirements*. We guarantee our ingredients and foods are free from any chemical preservatives such as ethoxyquin, BHA or BHT."_
> 
> Sounds good to me!


Yes, this is one co... makes Innova, EVO, Cal Nat, and a few others that is very forthcoming and trustworthy.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

goldensrbest said:


> I HAVE EMAILED WDJ, ABOUT NOT GETTING MY ISSUES, NOT HEARD FROM THEM ON THAT, i had checked on the dog food analysis, on artemis, think it was 4 star, just not going to get it.


I canceled my subscription to WDJ after they published an article written by a woman on the topic of having to make dog related compromises when her fiance moved in with her. One of the compromises was allowing him to put her dogs in the bed of an open pickup truck. The compromise was that instead of loose in the bed they were tethered. I could not in good conscience support a publication that thought this was a reasonable compromise - for the dogs or for the woman who allowed herself to be badgered into neglecting the welfare of her animals.

No more WDJ in this house and I do my best to make sure that my friends and students don't support them either. There was a time when they were a quality publication with quality research and topics that other publications didn't have. That certainly isn't the case anymore. 

Erica


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