# Is this common for obedience classes?



## Diesel's Mom (Oct 17, 2008)

He I just realized your from Louisiana  I live in Houma

I'm Sorry I dont have any advice.... bumping up 

Although I dont think I'd want to use a choke or a prong/pinch collar either. I have had more success with a head collar.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I may email the instructor asking about it. I'd like to think they would be flexible about it. I believe the instructor is a golden owner, so maybe she'll be sympathetic? :

I just moved to Louisiana from Illinois about a year ago. Loving the weather right now, although our summer was AWFUL. :


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

So far I've done two Obedience classes with Tess, and those collars were on the list of NOT to be used items....We do have Easy walkers and Gentle leaders in class, though most dogs wear just flat collars.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

That is definitely not common anymore. Look for an instructor who is certified with CPDT-KA.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Over the years many places I have trained have required slip or pinch collars. But over the last few years many noow just recommend them. Honestly in most classes you tell the ones that are wearing them and the ones that are not from far away. The ones not wearing them tend to be the fogs with less focus on the handler. Just my experience.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

You've heard this already, but - definitely not common. 

Sounds like a teacher who wants an easy class without the hassle of teaching a dog to work on a flat collar.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Maybe! It's an AKC affiliated dog club and they do seem really involved in obedience shows, agility shows, and all sorts of other dog related things. I'd like to think that maybe the website is outdated or something. Unfortunately it's acting wonky on me and I can't get to the contact page, or else I would email/call them and ask them about the collar issue.

Flora's had two obedience classes before and she used a flat collar and was okay. Actually, she was probably best in her class except for the greeting other people part of it...


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

AKC/kennel clubs typically use that type of equipment.

Even if you're allowed to use a buckle collar, the training methods will primarily be geared towards the people using the correction collars. I think you would get more out of a training class elsewhere.


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## Goldenmomma (Oct 15, 2009)

Sully has been in training every year for the past three years and they have never suggested these collars. In fact, they don't want them at their facility unless you have an aggressive or uncontrollable dog. I won't use them with my goldens. Not only would it hurt them, but the sad little faces they would have would break my heart.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

All of the training classes I have taken with my dogs, those are the collars that are not allowed.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I am very familiar with LCCOC, I go to many of their events and compete with their members at trials. My own instructor has been the club's training director for years. Who is the instructor? You said she had goldens, the only ones I can think of that fits that would be Terri if a woman and John if a man, but I don't see John requiring training collars so I'm betting Terri (goldens actually aren't that popular in LA competiton world).

Anyway, if you want me to ask anyone any questions, I'd be happy to, just let me know.


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## Diesel's Mom (Oct 17, 2008)

Yea the summers around here are awful. Also, I have found it really hard to find trainers around here. 




Loisiana said:


> (goldens actually aren't that popular in LA competiton world).
> 
> .


I agree with this... Goldens aren't really that popular in Louisiana at all.


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

I don't know about this particular club but generally taking classes from an obedience training club is a good way to go. I know our club offers all levels of classes from pet to competition. We allow all types of collars and our trainers make recommendations based on the specific needs of the dogs.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Doesn't sound like the type of training environment I'd want my dog to be in at all. I know how you feel though. We want to get started in Search and Rescue but they seem to use old-school methods and require a choke collar. 

About tracking, one recent tracking thread suggests Tracking From the Ground Up by Sandy Ganz and the other is Enthusiastic Tracking by Sil Sanders. I'm planning to get the latter. 

Have fun! Tracking so far has been really fun for us and Cosmo.


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## KathyF (Apr 1, 2010)

I would never take my dog to a trainer who demanded any aversive techniques, including pinch collars or prong collars. It would indicate to me that the trainer wasn't up on the current science and methods concerning dog behavior. 

Here's an article I just read that you may find helpful: 
Standing Up to Your Dog Trainer | Dog Star Daily


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## Rastadog (Oct 24, 2006)

*There is nothing wrong with a Prong collar*

If used correctly. Hands and voice can be abused too. I have trained with a prong and yes I have seen people misuse them. It is a very effective tool. It's not about pain but communication. Remember adding links will limit how tight the collar gets. I use more force when I pet or play with my dogs than I use with the prong. That said I wouldn't want to be told to use one. Most important we humans are advocats for our dogs. if you don't like it don't use it. Don't assume it's bad until you have seen a good trainer use one the right way. Alex


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

KathyF said:


> It would indicate to me that the trainer wasn't up on the current science and methods concerning dog behavior.


This isn't a comment directed to Kathy or anyone else, but I'm a little curious...

If you have a dog you want to do something with (like agility, search and rescue, or obedience trials) and had to choose a trainer from the following two:

1. Trainer who had really high scores and many titles with many _young_ dogs in multiple sports, classes are always full, and you know that this trainer is going to help you get all the way up to the top level because he/she has been there, etc. Add to that, this teacher is actively attending seminars to keep up with all of the current training methods (both positive reinforcement and correction based) so that she can turn around and use the methods to teach classes. This trainer encourages you to use flat collars, although he/she will also teach you how to use choke chains or prong collars if it will help. This trainer does not personally use clickers, but knows the methods and can teach you if you want to learn. And because this trainer always has a full class and full class schedule, he/she can afford to offer reasonable priced classes. 

2. Trainer who has titled a couple dogs up through open, and maybe only one through utility... but can only teach up to novice in obedience, and she's currently running her dog through agility or rally and teaching you what she's teaching herself. She refuses to tell you where to take your dog to continue, because she doesn't know of any other trainers who teach the same methods she does. Those methods came out of books, not seminars taught by people who are actively stomping the competition in the show rings with those methods. *If your dog's star fades or never shines in class, then that trainer has no answers for you, because she will never teach you any other methods besides those that worked with her dogs.* This includes refusing to use corrections and training collars. Because there is a huge turnover for this trainer's classes (people either quit or have gotten their novice titles and retired their dogs), she has to charge people an obscene amount to pay her building rent. 

- The reason why I ask is because I was in a similar position a while back, although the difference between trainer types was not use of training collars. I think that when you have limited options and have high expectations as to how high you and your dog fly, you have to go with the teacher who will help you. 

I would NOT go to a trainer who demanded everyone use a prong collar. A training collar should not replace training. It should enhance the training where it is needed. And not every dog needs that enhancement. If a trainer demands that every dog use that 'enhancement', then it's obviously somebody who is already cutting corners.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> That is definitely not common anymore. Look for an instructor who is certified with CPDT-KA.


With Flora's personality, you'll get more out of an APDT/CPDT class. An AKC class would be a nice opportunity to meet some people in dogworld, so there's a downside to leaving it, but I choose not to train with aversion-based equipment, so I prefer a class environment where that decision is the default.

For what it's worth, the place where I took the dogs for CGC classes doesn't allow prongs to be used in classes at all.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Im gunna say not common, all the places if inquired about for Joey DONT allow prongs or chokes, they prefer harnesses and/or a normal collar.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I teach Companion Dog, STAR puppy and CGC in a productive, busy training studio that does not allow prong collars or e collars in the front door- end of story. The Competition Obedience classes and show handling classes do allow choke collars/slip collars, but not prongs. I like it that way. I am a CGC evaluator, and I would not pass a dog on any of those aversive collar systems( it is against the rules).


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> I teach Companion Dog, STAR puppy and CGC in a productive, busy training studio that does not allow prong collars or e collars in the front door- end of story. The Competition Obedience classes and show handling classes do allow choke collars/slip collars, but not prongs. I like it that way. *I am a CGC evaluator, and I would not pass a dog on any of those aversive collar systems( it is against the rules).*


I imagine that if you need to have a training collar on your dog so that he will pass the CGC test, then there's a problem there. CGC tests are based on real world situations, right? So real world situations, the dog hopefully just has a flat collar on his neck. I imagine using any training collar (even certain harnesses) for the test would cheat the test.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I can see the benefit of both. We never needed those types with Selka but Gunner pulled and a prong helped slow him down.. it did not hurt him at all. I think a choke collar is more dangerous to their throat!
And we didn't need it for the CGC or even advanced classes.

Our obedience club leaves the choice to the owner and the instructor. Sasha of course is much too young for a choke or prong. So we will be using his regular collar for his puppy class.


I would add if you are still needing a prong later on , then the dog hasn't really learned anything.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> I imagine that if you need to have a training collar on your dog so that he will pass the CGC test, then there's a problem there. CGC tests are based on real world situations, right? So real world situations, the dog hopefully just has a flat collar on his neck. I imagine using any training collar (even certain harnesses) for the test would cheat the test.


The point of CGC is that the dog should be working for and with the handler. If you're relying on the equipment (even if that means popping or hauling on a leash and a flat collar), you should fail. It doesn't call for the precision or single-command nature of competition obedience (you can talk to your dog the whole way through if you choose), but it does call for control based on training, not on equipment.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Debles said:


> I think a choke collar is more dangerous to their throat!


True, a misused choke collar is a dangerous thing.

Heck, even a flat collar can really hurt a dog if he's hauling on it or lunging.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> True, a misused choke collar is a dangerous thing.
> 
> Heck, even a flat collar can really hurt a dog if he's hauling on it or lunging.


But ideally you want to learn how to stop the pulling LONG before you put a choke chain on your dog. The choke chain should be used for precision and ideally should hang absolutely loose on the dog except for corrections. It should never be used on a pulling dog. 

I know that with my guy, I keep the chain on the dead ring any time we are not in the ring. And then when we are done training, the chain comes off and the flat collar goes on. 

Wearing that choke chain is an extra cue that we are working and he's to only pay attention to moi. When he's on the flat collar, he's allowed to be a normal (well-behaved) golden retriever. 

My guy is not a wheezy puller, but he is a young golden retriever male who will pull in the direction of friends or marking posts. Or he pulls into our training buildings because it's like golden retriever heaven in there (friendly dogs + friendly people + lotta treats).


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> But ideally you want to learn how to stop the pulling LONG before you put a choke chain on your dog. The choke chain should be used for precision and ideally should hang absolutely loose on the dog except for corrections. It should never be used on a pulling dog.


I'd do you one better and say ideally it should never be used for corrections either. But that's not what this thread's really about, so I don't want to hijack it.

I just wanted to build on what Deb said and point out that any equipment can be dangerous if it's used improperly and that most standard equipment (including the stuff I choose not to use) doesn't cause injury if it's used properly. I don't want people to think that when I say a flat buckle collar is a good thing to work with that I believe it's safe to allow a dog to pull or lunge on it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> I don't want people to think that when I say a flat buckle collar is a good thing to work with that I believe it's safe to allow a dog to pull or lunge on it.


In that I do agree with you. 

My post wasn't really meant to start the collar argument (again). I think I mainly wanted to say reiterate that I think that while chokes and prongs are safe and fine to use, that I think their use needs to be limited. Which goes back to the OP's post re/ mandatory prong collar use for all dogs attending the class. I thoroughly disagree with that concept.

I also meant to show that even those dogs who are wearing the chains and prongs don't necessarily learn to never pull. They just learn to never misbehave while wearing that training equipment. My dog does heel and pay attention with just the flat collar on fine, but he also knows that's only when I ask him and praise him for his attention. Otherwise, he knows he can look around and ignore me while the regular collar is on. And I'm OK with that. Dogs should be dogs and it would be a very boring walk or hike for them if I demanded full attention the entire time. And breaking heel position and walking ahead of me is not the same as pulling.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I mean to say that I agree with the OP that Flora will not benefit as much from a class requiring a prong collar as much as from an up-to-date trainer skilled in science-based, advanced, behaviorally sound methods.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't understand saying that people who use training collars aren't using up-to-date methods. Up-to-date by whose standard? If there are plenty of people successfully using them then what makes it outdated?

I also don't understand saying its best to use methods that are science based. Wouldn't it be best to use methods that have proven results? Whether those methods happen to be based in science or not, isn't the results what you should base your choice on, and not whether or not it's science based?


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## Faith's mommy (Feb 26, 2007)

the first place i trained Faith at required a choke collar. i didn't know this until we showed up for our first class or i never would have signed up with them. i was still new to dog ownership and was uneasy about it, but went along with it thinking that the trainer clearly must know more than i do about it all. it was horrid. 

so, my advice - never sign up for or participate in a class where they are using equipment or training methods you are not comfortable with.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> I am very familiar with LCCOC, I go to many of their events and compete with their members at trials. My own instructor has been the club's training director for years. Who is the instructor? You said she had goldens, the only ones I can think of that fits that would be Terri if a woman and John if a man, but I don't see John requiring training collars so I'm betting Terri (goldens actually aren't that popular in LA competiton world).
> 
> Anyway, if you want me to ask anyone any questions, I'd be happy to, just let me know.


Sorry I didn't respond sooner. Yes, it's Terri who would be teaching this obedience class. I thought the website and the club seemed really responsible so I was a little curious about this collar thing, but it does also say that you can talk with the instructor about what collar would be best, so maybe there's flexibility there.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> With Flora's personality, you'll get more out of an APDT/CPDT class. An AKC class would be a nice opportunity to meet some people in dogworld, so there's a downside to leaving it, but I choose not to train with aversion-based equipment, so I prefer a class environment where that decision is the default.
> 
> For what it's worth, the place where I took the dogs for CGC classes doesn't allow prongs to be used in classes at all.


She's an incredible learner so I don't really see any need for a choke collar or a prong. As I said before we took two classes where the trainer frowned upon those types of collars, and except for the greeting other people part (she's terrible at that) Flora excelled in everything.

I will look into APDT/CPDT classes... I don't even know what those terms are so I'll have to look that up too. 

Thanks to everyone who replied. It has definitely given me food for thought.

In the meantime I have bought a new clicker and a clicker training book that got high ratings on Amazon and I will be spending part of our outdoors time doing some clicker training until we can find an obedience class I like.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

kdmarsh said:


> In the meantime I have bought a new clicker and a clicker training book that got high ratings on Amazon and I will be spending part of our outdoors time doing some clicker training until we can find an obedience class I like.


I think Flora will respond beautifully to clicker training. Definitely try to find a trainer to help you with it, since in clicker work, timing is incredibly important, and it can be hard to see your imperfections as a trainer at the same time as you're trying to work your dog. An outside pair of expert eyes is invaluable.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> I don't understand saying that people who use training collars aren't using up-to-date methods. Up-to-date by whose standard? If there are plenty of people successfully using them then what makes it outdated?
> 
> I also don't understand saying its best to use methods that are science based. Wouldn't it be best to use methods that have proven results? Whether those methods happen to be based in science or not, isn't the results what you should base your choice on, and not whether or not it's science based?


Without speaking for anybody else, I'd venture to say that some of the traditional methods used in the dog community are not consistent with what behavioral science tells us about training animals. Obviously, most of those traditional techniques became traditional because they're effective. The question that's being asked by many progressive trainers is: can we develop techniques that are even _more_ effective by looking to behavioral science and adapting what we do? Which popular techniques are less effective or less kind to the dog than they could be?

For example, the alpha roll, once popular, has fallen out of favor because it was found to be based on a poor understanding of wolf behavior. Could it be used effectively? Yes, and I've done it. Is it the absolute best way to establish leadership with a young, brash dog? I would say certainly not, and I no longer will do it. There are far too many potential side effects to the technique, and the same goals can be accomplished more effectively and more positively. This is just one example of the forward evolution of dog training, and I think it's a change for the better.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> The question that's being asked by many progressive trainers is: can we develop techniques that are even _more_ effective by looking to behavioral science and adapting what we do? Which popular techniques are less effective or less kind to the dog than they could be?


I guess this depends on where you are in the country... but I thought that most (companion dog) trainers I see at the clubs where I do fun matches or have shown or just gone and watched.... most of these people ARE what I would consider progressive and sensitive to the dog compared to what was going on when I trained our first dog. 

This progressive movement from corrections and alpha rolls to treats, toys, clickers, body language, reading your dog... this started happening 20 years ago. 

I was at a show recently and was sitting back with my dog watching some pretty high up obedience competitors pace back and forth in front of me with toys, treats, playing with their dogs (and they each showed multiple dogs at this show) to loosen them up before going into the ring. This is quite different from what we saw even at the last show I did with my Danny (10 years ago). There was definitely no disembowled squirrel toys at _that_ show. 

These trainers were using the "YES" cue (verbal clicker) for their dogs, another new thing. Yes, these people likely use gentle verbal or leash corrections when training, and they all had choke chains on their dogs, but I would most definitely label them as progressive. 

The one woman got her OTCH on one of her dogs at this show, which shows that they are obviously using methods that work. 

I'm not sure about all of those trainers at that show, but I know at least one of them does teach obedience and likely is teaching the methods (she uses). And she was teaching back when I started out with Danny, at least 15 years ago.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

And we have BINGO!!
This is the case in my area of the country also. Training has for sure evolved from what it was 18 years ago when I started out. But these same folks have not thrown the baby out with the bath water. They have refined and reshaped and always looking for ways to perfect their craft. 
I will again stand by my believe that slip/pinch collars are not "mean", evil tools. However just as a flat buckle collar or even a clicker can be abused when not used properly, so can these.
And most do not know me or my dogs but trust me they have all been smart/quick learners. Some have been trained on flat collars and some have had to be trained on pinch collars. Which is why with most trainers you are given the option of collars to use.




Megora said:


> I guess this depends on where you are in the country... but I thought that most (companion dog) trainers I see at the clubs where I do fun matches or have shown or just gone and watched.... most of these people ARE what I would consider progressive and sensitive to the dog compared to what was going on when I trained our first dog.
> 
> This progressive movement from corrections and alpha rolls to treats, toys, clickers, body language, reading your dog... this started happening 20 years ago.
> 
> ...


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## Solas Goldens (Nov 10, 2007)

Just my two cent's, I think they should only be used on a dog that needs a strong correction.I have also been taking obedience and rally classes, and not one person has a choke or prong collar. My trainer is straight off the AKC site.The trainer of my handling class told me she wasn't 100% sure,but thought that anything but a flat collar is unacceptable in an obedience event.So if you don't need it don't use it.If it is an issue for this club find another club or trainer that will work with you.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Solas Goldens said:


> ....My trainer is straight off the AKC site.The trainer of my handling class told me she wasn't 100% sure,but thought that anything but a flat collar is unacceptable in an obedience event.So if you don't need it don't use it.If it is an issue for this club find another club or trainer that will work with you.


Flat collars and 'choke' collars are allowed at all AKC obedience events. E-collars and prong collars are not allowed at these events.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Solas Goldens said:


> The trainer of my handling class told me she wasn't 100% sure,but thought that anything but a flat collar is unacceptable in an obedience event.



That is not correct. A slip collar is permitted in the AKC obedience ring. In agility only a flat buckle collar (or no collar) is permitted.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> I guess this depends on where you are in the country... but I thought that most (companion dog) trainers I see at the clubs where I do fun matches or have shown or just gone and watched.... most of these people ARE what I would consider progressive and sensitive to the dog compared to what was going on when I trained our first dog.


Absolutely. The burning question, I guess, is whether we consider that process over, or whether there's a lot more progress to be made. Are we where we need to be, and it's just an issue of refinement, or are we going to some day regard some of the tools and techniques that are common today with the same attitude that we regard the switch or the alpha roll now?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

AmbikaGR said:


> And we have BINGO!!
> This is the case in my area of the country also. Training has for sure evolved from what it was 18 years ago when I started out. But these same folks have not thrown the baby out with the bath water. They have refined and reshaped and always looking for ways to perfect their craft.


The collar posts after mine reminded me of another way the obedience training market has changed in the last few years... 

When I bought my first choke chain years ago, I was able to buy a relatively light chain. This was not a conformation show chain, but it wasn't that much thicker. I still have that chain and use it on Jacks.

I'd also bought a blue chain for Danny... and am kicking myself because I can't find it anywhere!!! I have a feeling my mom buried it in his ashes. They did the same with Sammy's matching red choke chain. 

When I went to pick up a spare choke chain for Jacks, I found that the chains seem to be a bit thicker and heavier than they used to be. And the area petstores no longer sell conformation chains (not that I'd buy one, but I was curious enough to note). The problem with these thicker and heavier chains is that they do not release as quickly and smoothly as the older chains. This could be the petstores going with a cheaper supplier, but I'm not sure. 

By the same token, you can take a look at how prongs have changed just in the past five or six years. Shorter prongs, rubber tips, quick release (the prong hangs loose around the neck except for corrections), and even the quick snap closures (so that you aren't pinching your dog while trying to fasten the collar)... 

The kind of prong collars that my one teacher recommended was very light and had shorter prongs than the cheap heavy ones you find in petstores.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Megora said:


> I guess this depends on where you are in the country... but I thought that most (companion dog) trainers I see at the clubs where I do fun matches or have shown or just gone and watched.... most of these people ARE what I would consider progressive and sensitive to the dog compared to what was going on when I trained our first dog.
> 
> This progressive movement from corrections and alpha rolls to treats, toys, clickers, body language, reading your dog... this started happening 20 years ago.
> 
> ...


Kate, I assume you were at the AADTC trials this past weekend. I was not there but got a catalog because my businesses sponsored classes at the trials and I am also a member of AADTC. I have done competitive obedience classes both at AADTC with Mary Burney and at Northfield Dog Training with Adele Yunck. While at both places allowed choke collars and I think pinch collars, they were not necessary and I always used a flat collar. In the classes I took there were no corrections used except for a light leash pop and bounce to start a heel which could be just as effective with a flat collar as with a choke collar. AADTC used Adele's techniques in competition training and while Adele may use light corrections in proofing, she does not use them in training.

There were others trialing who do use more aversive corrections with training, but I don't know how much the success they achieved was based on the type of collar they trained with. In addition, while many if not most competitors at the highest level may have a choke collar on at trials, I think that has a lot to do with tradition rather than training style, i.e., it is a look or style they like. 

Finally, I think someone competitive in the upper levels of obedience trials is completely different than someone taking a low level pet dog training class in terms of what equipment they use. Choke collars can damage a dog's trachea if used incorrectly and prong collars are so easy to use incorrectly. I have seen far too many people with their dogs pulling big time on choke and prong collars, but experienced trainers use these collars to give a very quick correction and there is the difference. For people who are inexperienced or uninterested in learning proper timing and level of corrections, it is better to use a flat collar.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Kate, I assume you were at the AADTC trials this past weekend.


Nope.  

I was supposed to show but I was stuck at home having a nervous breakdown over an unplanned new car purchase. :uhoh: 

I was referring to the Fort Detroit Golden specialty back in September.

I took classes the last two years at AADTC and am doing practice classes at both AADTC and Northfield. Both places, the collars and corrections are as needed for the specific dog or the specific problem, not required. Last year I had a teacher who advised the novice people to use a prong collar to get quicker responses from the dogs (instant sits, rapid about turns, immediate fasts, etc). Her explanation was that the flat collars would be fine for novice, but we were teaching our dogs the groundwork for the higher levels and she wanted us to win shows rather than just qualifying. Or basically something to that effect. I tried it, hated seeing the constant pressure on my dog's neck, and pulled Danny's old chain out of retirement and used that instead. Until then, I'd been using a flat collar and had no problems. 

At this point, the chain is just a cue. Whether I'm at Northfield or AADTC, my trainers do not want to see me making corrections. Or I get the "You would get points off for that" reminders. 

I like using the choke chain because it's something my dog never wears unless he is working. And right down to me switching him to the live ring, these are subtle cues that he needs to be "ON" and focused. <- This is probably the whole traditional thing, but it's something I learned back when I was training Danny. And it always stuck.

I'm not anti-prong because I chose not to train with it. I did use my prong all summer when getting Jacks over his fear of gunshots (we have two gun clubs nearby, they've been very busy this year) so we could walk. Properly utilized, you do not have to keep it on the dog long term. It's just to get the desired behaviors so you can reward them. He was so bad that I couldn't imagine any other way to ensure he got through his fears. A fearful dog has no interest in food, so treats were not going to cut it. <- And for what it's worth, he is no longer fazed by the gunshots when we walk, and I just keep the prong in my pocket the entire way.



> Finally, I think someone competitive in the upper levels of obedience trials is completely different than someone taking a low level pet dog training class in terms of what equipment they use. Choke collars can damage a dog's trachea if used incorrectly and prong collars are so easy to use incorrectly. I have seen far too many people with their dogs pulling big time on choke and prong collars, but experienced trainers use these collars to give a very quick correction and there is the difference. For people who are inexperienced or uninterested in learning proper timing and level of corrections, it is better to use a flat collar.


I absolutely 100 % amensure agree with this. The old school word (coming from my instructor back with Danny) on prongs is that they should not be used by somebody with hard hands. Because the corrections have to be light and precise to avoid abuse or injury. And choke chains were the same way, partly because people (back then) would put them on backwards. If on backwards, there is not a quick release and the dog is choked until the owner thinks to manually loosen the collar. 

And when you add pulling owners or pulling dogs to the equation - yikes!


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

Ryley is taking Puppy Kindergarten and the instructor specifically went through the types of collars and harnesses that she would allow in her class.

Choke chains and prong collars were specifically banned.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Ryley's Dad said:


> Ryley is taking Puppy Kindergarten and the instructor specifically went through the types of collars and harnesses that she would allow in her class.
> 
> Choke chains and prong collars were specifically banned.


For puppy K, I should hope so.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I think Flora will respond beautifully to clicker training. Definitely try to find a trainer to help you with it, since in clicker work, timing is incredibly important, and it can be hard to see your imperfections as a trainer at the same time as you're trying to work your dog. An outside pair of expert eyes is invaluable.



Fortunately, when we had problems with Flora's crate training, I did call in a behaviorist who showed me the proper use of a clicker - how to "load" it, and then how to use it, so hopefully that all comes back to me when I start using it again.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

And btw, this thread has been really interesting to read!


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

This is an interesting read. My 2 cents- from what I see with our trainer, prongs and chokes are tools. I have never had them recommend one for Tucker (only a GL), but we do have a couple dogs in our class that are on prongs. I do know they would be constantly on top of the owner about not using them if they felt they were not appropriate for the dog. Personally, I would not want a choke or prong mandated for a class. They simply are not the right tool for every dog. But they do have their place. BTW, we use "Yes!" as our marker. Now anytime I say "Yes" to Tucker, he wheels around immediately even if it is not directed at him.

Not sure if you know but the APDT website has a trainer search option. Hopefully this link will work-

Dog Trainer Search


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> I don't understand saying that people who use training collars aren't using up-to-date methods. Up-to-date by whose standard? If there are plenty of people successfully using them then what makes it outdated?
> 
> I also don't understand saying its best to use methods that are science based. Wouldn't it be best to use methods that have proven results? Whether those methods happen to be based in science or not, isn't the results what you should base your choice on, and not whether or not it's science based?



Now Jodie all of that is just *CRAZY TALK*!!!!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Okay, I talked to some members of LCCOC this weekend and asked about the training collars. They said they are not at all required for class. If someone is really struggling to control their dog they will make the suggestion to the person to try one, but the people I spoke to said they have people out there training with buckle collars, halters, harnesses, whatever.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Now Jodie all of that is just *CRAZY TALK*!!!!


 
I guess I'm starting to take after my crazy dogs


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> Okay, I talked to some members of LCCOC this weekend and asked about the training collars. They said they are not at all required for class. If someone is really struggling to control their dog they will make the suggestion to the person to try one, but the people I spoke to said they have people out there training with buckle collars, halters, harnesses, whatever.


Well that's good to know! Unfortunately I think their basic training course has started up already... their website is really screwy for me and half of the links (including the registration and contact us links) don't work for me. 

I'll try it again today to see if I have any luck. Thanks for letting me know of this!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

70 years ago B.F. Skinner (1904-1990),tested training using a secondary reinforcer, and much more animal behavioral science has progressed since then in learning how dogs best learn- a bibliography would take 100s of pages even starting with Pavlov, lol. It's interesting reading, and persuasive to me. 

You can teach young school kids by hitting their hands with rulers or by giving stickers on a chart- both work as long as the youngster understands the cause/effect. There are moral questions, questions of ethos and joyful learning to consider there.

I wonder if my PH'D dissertation on Nabokov would be finished now if someone electrocuted my neck whenever I started chitchatting on the phone? Probably! 

I've been following with interest the same discussion on three different lists about an obedience competitor who allegedly kicked her dog in the face bc he lays down on his sit/stays, and another case of a well known obedience star who recently hit her dog with a chain leash at an obedience trial. I'm interested in where we could all have common ground and agree on where to draw the line in exact terms of what is too aversive. For me, prong collars are too aversive- crazy I guess. I see with my own eyes dogs ,yes, getting titles/HITs but truly cowering/slinking/ trembling in the obedience ring, and it turns me off. There is a lot of over-the-top correcting in competitive obedience. 

I teach lots of pet dogs, and I have to respectfully disagree with Hank. The ones who come in having choke and prong collars are generally the ones who are reactive or fearful. Luckily for me, the big training center where I teach does not allow these collars in classes. 
For the OP who wants to learn companion dog obedience basics with a young golden bitch , requiring she come to class with a prong collar is absurd. I think the choke/slip collar is fine in skilled hands, even though I look at it as old school and not as effective as operant conditioning in creating a working, effective relationship between an average pet owner and an average pet dog..


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> 70 years ago B.F. Skinner (1904-1990),tested training using a secondary reinforcer, and much more animal behavioral science has progressed since then in learning how dogs best learn- a bibliography would take 100s of pages even starting with Pavlov, lol. It's interesting reading, and persuasive to me. You can teach school kids by hitting their hands with a ruler or by giving stickers on a chart- both work. I wonder if my PH'D dissertation on Nabokov would be finished now if someone electrocuted my neck whenever I started chitchatting on the phone. Probably!


Lol, I'm sure I too would get a lot more done if I was fearful of being zapped by a cattle prod. :


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I've been following with interest the same discussion on three different lists about an obedience competitor who allegedly kicked her dog in the face bc he lays down on his sit/stays, and another case of a well known obedience star who recently hit her dog with a chain leash at an obedience trial. I'm interested in where we could all have common ground and agree on where to draw the line in exact terms of what is too aversive. For me, prong collars are too aversive- crazy I guess. I see with my own eyes dogs ,yes, getting titles/HITs but truly cowering/slinking/ trembling in the obedience ring, and it turns me off. There is a lot of over-the-top correcting in competitive obedience.


Holy heck... 

I've taken pride in the fact that my dog may be afraid of gunshots, storms, random bogeymen that he imagines when he hears loud noises, but he's never been afraid of me. I hope those people were reported for animal abuse, because seriously... if they are kicking their dogs in the face in the show ring... imagine what they do when nobody's watching!

My limit as far as ouch corrections would be -

Nose pinch to teach a dog to stop sniffing. This is not even supposed to hurt. It's just a squeeze-squeeze + "No sniff". 

Alternative is the nose flick - which depending on how hard you do it, is a bit more unpleasant for the dog. 

Tongue press to teach a puppy not to mouth or bite. It should hurt only enough to make an impression on the puppy. 

Fatty pinch to get a distracted puppy's attention. And this should not be hard enough to cause a puppy to cry out. It's just a quick pinch + gotcha! 

Toe step/shuffle to correct a dog going down on a sit stay. This would be you walking up to the dog and gently stepping on his toenails or nudging the toes while you give him the "SIT" command. 

Butt smack - and this is not supposed to hurt! It's more like a "tag you're it" smack. <- I do know of people who teach a harder smack, especially to teach faster sits, but I would NEVER do that.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> IFor the OP who wants to learn companion dog obedience basics with a young golden bitch , requiring she come to class with a prong collar is absurd. I think the choke/slip collar is fine in skilled hands, even though I look at it as old school and not as effective as operant conditioning in creating a working, effective relationship between an average pet owner and an average pet dog..


If one takes a prong collar and places it around their arm and tightens it, it does not hurt. We were taught to use the small links, no matter how big your dog is. When used correctly, there is even pressure throughout. It can even be turned around without the prongs and get the same results. 

A slip collar/ choke collar does not have the same even pressure - I would think it would be more painful.

I do not use prong collars for my goldens, but have had to use them with a previous GSD I had with great results.


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## The Magic of Macy (Oct 7, 2010)

The training that I currently have Macy enrolled in is pretty strict in their beliefs that the use of choke, prong, halties/gentle leaders, harnesses NOT be used for training purposes... 
That being said, I find that Macy responds ALOT better with her gentle leader on and is all that more focused on the training session when we are not in the class. BUT I have also decided that I will discontinute the use of it after 6 weeks of traning with it, as I have heard that it is hard on their spine after long periods of use. 

Personally, I do not like the idea of the prong collars, yet some ppl swear by it. ( I think it is kinda mean... 

Anyhow.. good luck with the training!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> 70 years ago B.F. Skinner (1904-1990),tested training using a secondary reinforcer, and much more animal behavioral science has progressed since then in learning how dogs best learn- a bibliography would take 100s of pages even starting with Pavlov, lol. It's interesting reading, and persuasive to me.


Right - we're not talking about "science" in a hoity-toity cerebral way here. So the contrast between science and practical dog training experience is a false dichotomy. Science, in the way I'm using it (and I think you are too) is the evaluation of techniques in a controlled situation.

I think you're absolutely right that there are techniques we can all pretty much agree are outdated, even though they were commonplace fifty years ago. I have read two separate retriever training books that recommend beating the dog across the rump. One suggests the free end of the leash, and the other says that you should cut a good switch before you start training your pup. Both defend hitting the dog as a technique based on experience and effectiveness, and both say it's not cruel if you apply it carefully because dogs are slow to respond to pain.

I doubt anybody here, even the most "traditional" or "successful" of trainers, cuts a switch before breaking in a new lab puppy anymore. That technique has been left behind it's too focused on punishment and doesn't create good communication and bonding between dog and handler. Perhaps it's still done in some circles but not bragged about.

Hitting dogs in the face is still apparently acceptable, as evinced by videos posted on this forum by a successful trainer.

I wonder, though, as the science progresses and mainstream training continues to follow it (with a bit of a lag), whether we'll look back and some things that are common today and regard them as old fashioned, less effective, and not so nice, even though they were somewhat effective in their day.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

As always, I think different techniques work for different dogs. Anything I consider absusive (which is pretty black and white - kicking, hitting, switching, etc) is never used by me at all. Anything BEFORE that line in the sand is a gray area and it depends on the individual dog. If something I do causes a dog to be unsure or cause a reaction I don't like (nervousness, appeasement-behaviour, etc) then it gets toned down dramatically.

For instance, I was working on obedience this weekend with Ranger and my brother's dog Blue. Blue is so much more sensitive and willing to please than Ranger that I happily do all positive reinforcement work with him. The one time I forgot myself and gave him a little correction for forging ahead (a teeny pop on the collar), Blue immediately started licking his lips and then dropped back to where he was lagging until I could encourage him to walk next to me again. My fault - I forgot how sensitive Blue is. Ranger, on the other hand, will happily forge ahead and ignore all verbal cues as he is so focused on whatever is ahead of him. A little collar pop to get his attention and he's back to my side and focused on me, at which point he gets praised and a little goodie, and he's happily working away until he needs his next reminder.

So my line in the sand moves with each individual dog but never passes into what I consider abusive. Some dogs respond better to different training techniques than others and a good trainer adapts to what each dog requires. Not every dog falls into the cookie-cutter training techniques and it's important for good trainers to recognize that and work with it.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> I'm interested in where we could all have common ground and agree on where to draw the line in exact terms of what is too aversive.


I think the whole point is that a line shouldn't be drawn. It's not black and white, this is always right and this is always wrong. You have to take into consideration the current situation and the current dog. What might be abusive for one situation or dog might be fine for a different situation or dog.

It can also depend on the quantity/quality/degree. Most people would probably agree if someone said you should never kick a dog in training. When you see that statement it sounds good, why would you want to kick a dog to teach it anything? But then again, when I'm working on about turns I will often bring my right foot behind me and pop my dog's butt with the side of the foot to remind him to hurry up and pop out instead of keeping wrapped too long. So technically I'm kicking my dog. I know my dogs don't think I'm being abusive to them, and I can't imagine many people seeing me do it would think it's harmful either (unless they are just very strong in their belief that anything other than completely hands off training without any aversives at all is harmful). So things aren't always as cut and dry as they seem.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> I think the whole point is that a line shouldn't be drawn. It's not black and white, this is always right and this is always wrong. You have to take into consideration the current situation and the current dog. What might be abusive for one situation or dog might be fine for a different situation or dog.
> 
> It can also depend on the quantity/quality/degree. Most people would probably agree if someone said you should never kick a dog in training. When you see that statement it sounds good, why would you want to kick a dog to teach it anything? But then again, when I'm working on about turns I will often bring my right foot behind me and pop my dog's butt with the side of the foot to remind him to hurry up and pop out instead of keeping wrapped too long. So technically I'm kicking my dog. I know my dogs don't think I'm being abusive to them, and I can't imagine many people seeing me do it would think it's harmful either (unless they are just very strong in their belief that anything other than completely hands off training without any aversives at all is harmful). So things aren't always as cut and dry as they seem.


I think we'd all be fairly clear as to what was popping a dog's butt with your foot to move him and what a kick is. There's no real confusion there. I also think we can draw a line between effective and abusive, even if we disagree as to exactly where it is. We all know that pushing your dog's butt with your foot isn't the same thing as kicking him, just as patting him on the butt isn't the same as slapping him.

I do think we all draw a line between aversive training, whether we believe in it or not, and abuse, and I think that line needs to exist so we can encourage good training at our clubs and events. If somebody wound up and slapped a dog during a class, I'd say something. If somebody brings out a prong on a dog I don't think needs it, it's none of my business to say anything if it isn't my class, since I don't consider that abusive. I might privately or intellectually question the effectiveness or the necessity of using it, but I also don't think the dog is being abused just because there's a prong involved.

Similarly, I don't say things when a positive technique is being misapplied, even to the point where the person is untraining the dog or reinforcing a bad habit, because it ain't my class.

I just wonder if we can develop techniques along to the point where aversives are even less necessary than they are today, even in advanced training. Maybe we can't, but I don't think the avenue has been sufficiently explored by mainstream competition trainers. It sounds like the faith in methods that have worked in the past _at times_ can exceed a willingness to develop new methods that may be even better.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> But then again, when I'm working on about turns I will often bring my right foot behind me and pop my dog's butt with the side of the foot to remind him to hurry up and pop out instead of keeping wrapped too long. So technically I'm kicking my dog....


You know... I completely forgot about those 'kicks'. I guess I do or did kick my dog in training. That would be the about turn kicks and the swing kicks. 

I guess you can add those to my list of things that I view as OK in training.

In reality though - the degree and way you do something matter to me. I don't want to see anyone losing their temper with their dog and taking it out on them with their hands, feet, or voice.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Loisiana said:


> So things aren't always as cut and dry as they seem.



Kind of like life in general!


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

On a side note, we've been working with the clicker and Flora's been responding very well. I'm currently trying to teach her how to greet people more properly by teaching her that if someone crosses their arms across their chest, she must sit and be polite.

Does anyone know - how exactly do I insert the command? I mean, once I really have her solid on a motion, do I introduce the command before or after I click and treat?


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

kdmarsh said:


> On a side note, we've been working with the clicker and Flora's been responding very well. I'm currently trying to teach her how to greet people more properly by teaching her that if someone crosses their arms across their chest, she must sit and be polite.
> 
> Does anyone know - how exactly do I insert the command? I mean, once I really have her solid on a motion, do I introduce the command before or after I click and treat?


Have you been reading "Reaching the Animal Mind?"

Cue... it depends. You can add the cue (arms crossed) right before she sits, or right as she's moving to sit. Click the sit. Then feed the treat.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

RedDogs said:


> Have you been reading "Reaching the Animal Mind?"
> 
> Cue... it depends. You can add the cue (arms crossed) right before she sits, or right as she's moving to sit. Click the sit. Then feed the treat.


Well, the cue she gets. I wait until she looks at me, then I cross my arms, and she sits. I thought that maybe I could add a verbal cue so people don't have to always cross their arms. Something like... "be polite" or along those lines.

Right now I'm reading Clicking With Your Dog by Karon Pryor, but I definitely want another book. I will check out Reaching the Animal Mind.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> I think the whole point is that a line shouldn't be drawn. It's not black and white.
> 
> How about shooting the dog with a BB gun, lol? Tough audience.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

kdmarsh said:


> Well, the cue she gets. I wait until she looks at me, then I cross my arms, and she sits. I thought that maybe I could add a verbal cue so people don't have to always cross their arms.
> 
> Right now I'm reading Clicking With Your Dog by Karon Pryor, but I definitely want another book. I will check out Reaching the Animal Mind.


I've had quite a few people recently read RAM, which apparently has the same exercise in it! 

If you want the verbal:

Say it right before she sits, or right as she's sitting OR say sit, pause, then cross arms. 

(...clicker training is not just "one way" of doing something, there are quite a few options!)


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> How about shooting the dog with a BB gun, lol? Tough audience.


You've never had a dog eat the Big Mac and fries you just brought home have you? : (Just kidding!!!!!)


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

RedDogs said:


> I've had quite a few people recently read RAM, which apparently has the same exercise in it!
> 
> If you want the verbal:
> 
> ...


Yes, I know there are other ways to train, but Flora has responded positively to clicker training in the past so I figured I'd go back to what works.

Apparently Reaching the Animal Mind is by the same author, so I will likely buy that book and give it a read!

Thanks for your input.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Does anyone know - how exactly do I insert the command? I mean, once I really have her solid on a motion, do I introduce the command before or after I click and treat? 

Before adding the verbal make sure the dog has a clear understanding of your hand signal (folded arms).

I was taught that they learn by association so it is 

Verbal Signal (new) ----> hand signal (folded arms) -------> click -------> reinforcement

over time the dog will then anticipate that the hand signal is coming. It is an association just as the click and then food. 
After lots of consistant repetition you can then use either or.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> How about shooting the dog with a BB gun, lol? Tough audience.


That's probably the best example of a technique that lots of people would call abusive but that was and is part of some people's repertoire. Are we going to say "live and let live" for this one?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Verbal Signal (new) ----> hand signal (folded arms) -------> click -------> reinforcement
> 
> over time the dog will then anticipate that the hand signal is coming. It is an association just as the click and then food.
> After lots of consistant repetition you can then use either or.


Just curious... wouldn't it make more sense to teach both verbal and hand signal at the same time? 

Like with my Jacks, the hand signal for sit is me pointing a finger straight at him. And I would do that the same time as the verbal command. And the (hopefully) instant response from the dog would be marked with a click/YES.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

wouldn't it make more sense to teach both verbal and hand signal at the same time? 

The thought or reason for not doing that is that when learning if two things are done at the same time one is blocked out. The term is called blocking.
That is why the indicator (yes marker/click) then the reward/reinforcement vs indicator and reward. There is actual science behind this but I don't know enough to expound on it.

Once there is a good association between the verbal (be polite) followed by the hand signal (folded arms) it won't matter if they are used at the same time and one is blocked out as the dog will still follow one or the other. But during the actual teaching you are teaching by association so one must actually follow the other so that the dog gets a clear message and one isn't blocked out.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

My clicker comment wasn't that I meant to do something else...I'm a clicker enthusiast... just that there are soooo many variations within clicker training and it's not a strict xyz pattern for all dogs and scenarios. 

If you give two cues at once, you don't know which the dog is following. Most dogs that come to class "Knowing" how to sit, sit on a hand signal. The owners thing the dogs are responding to a word (that they give at the same time). But it's really just the hand signal.

New cue-old cue-behavior-click-treat is a pattern often used. And while I'll use it on occasion, esp with competition behaviors or really clean training... it might not be the perfect solution that I've been told it was.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

RedDogs said:


> My clicker comment wasn't that I meant to do something else...I'm a clicker enthusiast... just that there are soooo many variations within clicker training and it's not a strict xyz pattern for all dogs and scenarios.
> 
> If you give two cues at once, you don't know which the dog is following. Most dogs that come to class "Knowing" how to sit, sit on a hand signal. The owners thing the dogs are responding to a word (that they give at the same time). But it's really just the hand signal.
> 
> New cue-old cue-behavior-click-treat is a pattern often used. And while I'll use it on occasion, esp with competition behaviors or really clean training... it might not be the perfect solution that I've been told it was.


Yes, our trainer back home (whom I loved) taught all of us to introduce the hand signal first, and THEN introduce the verbal signal while clicking and treating. Flora learned so well from her classes, I'm sad that we don't have access to her anymore.

And people shoot dogs with bb guns as a form of training?!?! :uhoh:


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