# Training vs real life



## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I don't want to hijack the punishment in training thread so thought I would start my own thread!

If I'm trying to work on Kenzie's leash behavior, not lunging towards rabbits she sees in bushes or people that are walking by is it possible to have some walks more as exercise walks where speed/distance is the purpose where I might need to drag her away from the rabbit and some walks as training walks where I sit and wait for her to stop pulling (which could be a very short walk!) and regaining her focus and teaching her by physically not moving forward until there is slack on the leash. 

I have 2 dogs so I feel bad trying to get 2 walks in the same timeframe I would normally use for 1 walk with both dogs.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Bumping up


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

What I have found to work with Rose on our walks is "leave it". Since we adopted Darcy three months ago I have not been out walking much. I am working with Darcy in the back yard and also teaching both to heel at the same time before I dare go out by myself with both. I started by getting them tired first with a play of Frisbee and then put the leashes on and walk in a heel the perimeter of the yard. I would also take them up and down the street for very short walks.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

One idea is to take them both at the same time for an exercise walk and then when you get home, put Guinness in the house and then work on McKenzie's leash manners when she's calmer and more tired.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I am going to say at this point do not walk them around the neighborhood together. If you can absolutely guarantee that you have total control of what Kenzie will come into contact with then walk them together.

When solving this problem Kenzie needs to be kept under threshold. 

Every time Kenzie gets over threshold the pup is producing a hormone (epinephrine) that is secreted by the adrenal medulla in response to stress, it increases the heart rate, pulse rate, and blood preasure raises the blood levels of glucose and lipids. 
It is an adrenalin rush and is self reinforcing. So every time Kenzie acts out in this way the pup is getting reinforced. And it is a huge reinforcement. You have nothing that can really compete with this level of reinforcement. This reinforcement will make the habits you don't care for harder and harder to break.

While you are working on training Kenzie to have more focus on you first without distractions then low level distractions building up to higher distractions over time walk Kenzie in an area where there aren't any or a very low amount of triggers. Places such as outside a mall, strip mall etc.

As Tippy said you cannot control every thing all the time so you will have some set backs along the way but it is important to make those set backs few.

Every time Kenzie has an adrenalin rush it takes 48 to 72 hours for the pups body to get back to a normal state.

Threshold - is the point where a stimulus is at a strong enough intensity to cause a reaction.
When a pup is over threshold they can not think so at that time they cannot learn. They just react and feel the reinforcing rush.

What is a Threshold? - The Crossover Trainer Blog

"Control Unleashed" helps to give you ways to play games to teach Kenzie to stay under threshold in more and more real life situations but in the beginning it all has to be through training under a controled enviroment.

I would also work more on Kenzie's recall without distractions and with low level distractions to build up this super important good habit. Even the best dogs will at times decide the squirrel or dog across the street is more interesting than we are and stretch out that leash but if our recall is solid they should come right back to us.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Thanks!
I have a long weekend right now (4 days off!) so at least for these days I can walk them separately and get Guinness his good walk in and work with Kenzie separately. Her walk length will depend in how she does, but at least she'll get some mental stimulation if she's not getting her normal mileage!


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

solinvictus said:


> I am going to say at this point do not walk them around the neighborhood together. If you can absolutely guarantee that you have total control of what Kenzie will come into contact with then walk them together.
> 
> When solving this problem Kenzie needs to be kept under threshold.
> 
> ...


Thank you!
I was just responding to Cathy's Gunner post about how I trained Guinness, dog aggression, using behavior adjustment training which is all based on functional rewards. The key point to that training is to keep the dog under threshold.
I think the same techniques will work with Kenzie.
I think Kenzie's first lessons will involve just getting the leash on and getting out of the house calmly.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

So, back from a training walk. My first thought was we've done this before. Yes, I've made a very common training mistake and quit reinforcing before it was a strong behavior.

I also pulled out my forgotten about but most effective training tool-the hands free leash!

I locked away Guinness and the cats. It took about 10 minutes just to get her collar on and get out of the house. I'd get her to sit patiently for the collar but as soon as it was on, she'd get all excited. I'd get her to sit calmly until I opened the inside door. Finally calm for the inside door, than she'd lose it when I opened the outside door. It took awhile but I finally managed to get her to sit still from putting the collar on her until I actually stepped outside and said "okay"
Then she darted outside so I just stood still and waited until she gave some slack, clicked and started forward (no treat, the moving forward is her reward). We had a few go arounds with this but she caught on/remembered pretty quickly. Approaching the bunny bush I used a lot of treats to keep her focused on me well before we got near the bush. She started towards it once or twice but I was able to call her back without any problem. I think it helped that the rabbit didn't make an appearance. I got about 3/4 of a mile with only 1 or 2 slight pulls.

Than I put her away and leashed up Guinness. He was in need if a tuneup himself. He wasn't really pulling but was spending a lot of time at the end of the leash. After a few reminders I had a nice u-shaped leash with him for about 2 miles. We even made it past a guy walking a chocolate lab(very nice dog for anyone following the lab thread in chit chat!). He kept a loose leash the whole time (& I kept my hands off the leash) with just a watch me command and some treats to keep him engaged. 

So I do have a few questions
With Kenzie, for the purposes of training a loose leash, I stop and stand my ground when she pulls and without saying anything I wait until she gives some actual slack in the leash. Then I click and move forward. I don't treat her since the moving is her reward. Is that correct or should I treat as well?
Also during the walk she'll occasionally glance back at me. Is it okay to click & treat that behavior to reinforce it or stick to one lesson at a time-ie the loose leash, not the checking in?
With Guinness since he knows to walk on a loose leash I just dole out treats randomly when he checks in with me-not every check in but sometimes. Should I click for those or just use the clicker for teaching the new behavior and stick with treats alone to reinforce them?


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Bumping up


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

fostermom said:


> One idea is to take them both at the same time for an exercise walk and then when you get home, put Guinness in the house and then work on McKenzie's leash manners when she's calmer and more tired.



This exactly.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

So I did another set of walks this afternoon. Guinness was darn near perfect for the entire walk.
Kenzie still took about 10 minutes to get out of the house and the first few minutes of the walk was a lot of stopping and waiting but then she caught on. I got about a mile out of her with a good walk. Not a good U-leash, she spent much of the walk at the end of the leash, but not pulling so I kept walking but clicked and treated every time she looked back at me. Once she was a little calmer she started walking with a nice deep U on the leash. At this point how do I say "yes, this, keep doing this"? Do I click and treat every few steps? Will she know what she's doing to get the click?
I understand clicking for helping to shape a behavior in steps but don't quite get how to use it to to tell them to keep doing the whole behavior when it's an ongoing behavior.

Also, once the walk was done I repeated the getting out I the house sequence a few times. When she did it twice back to back I called it a day


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Any thoughts on my questions on clicker training in my last 2 posts?
I'm using "clicking with your dog" by Peggy Tillman as my guide. We don't have any clicker training classes/instructors in my area. 
I also have "click your way to rally obedience" by Pamela Dennison since I would like to try rally, but haven't started that yet.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"With Kenzie, for the purposes of training a loose leash, I stop and stand my ground when she pulls and without saying anything I wait until she gives some actual slack in the leash. Then I click and move forward. I don't treat her since the moving is her reward. Is that correct or should I treat as well?"

I think this is confusing to the dog. By clicking and then moving forward you have just told Kenzie it is good to not be near you but to move ahead. Rewarding the moving forward away from you.

When you click Kenzie should turn and come back into you for the reward. The position you are in when giving the reward is the picture the pup sees. This should be along your side pretty close to a heel position. Since it is loose leash walking you aren't looking for an exact head along your seam or head up and pretty but that reward needs to be by your side.

" Also during the walk she'll occasionally glance back at me. Is it okay to click & treat that behavior to reinforce it or stick to one lesson at a time-ie the loose leash, not the checking in?"

I would be working on her loose leash walking. If she moves away a little bit and comes back to your side I would tell her she is a good dog take another step with her by your side and then click and treat. Reward for walking in that position. 
Right now I would be working on this foundation of her walking loose leash by your side. When she gets out of position you can do the wait. When she comes back into position tell her good dog. Take a step then click in reward for the correct position. 
If you continue to actually reward for her going ahead and then not coming back to you she will not come back into position. You want her to come back into position (build that habit) because there will be a day when you need her to come right back to you instead of 3 feet away from you. 

Originally, when starting to use a clicker you build up the value of the clicker by for every single click the pup gets a treat. If you are going to click Kenzie needs that treat. Otherwise you will slowly cause the clicker to not mean that a reward is coming. Instead of building up the value of the click you will be tearing down its value. 
When you want to let Kenzie know she did something good but you don't want to build a chain of doing wrong then doing good give her a special word of praise that says I like that. Then as soon as she has done exactly what you want then click and reward.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

I struggle with the same things you're working on. I can't walk my boys together..because then I'll get pulled, fall, and dragged down a hill on my bum (true story :doh. Something that I recommend is to get a really good Reinforcement Zone (RZ) understanding i.e. heel position. You always reward in RZ and as you keep doing this your dogs start to understand that RZ is an awesome place to be and they'll want to be there all the time. My boys still pull because smells and squirrels are very exciting, but the minute I stop dead in my tracks they scurry back into heel position sit and look up at me. I make sure to treat/reward there and then move forward. Every time I treat while walking its in RZ. My left hand will be full of treats and act as if its a treat dispenser - releasing one treat at a time in their mouth as we walk. Their head is right by my knee so they're in RZ. It's not the easiest thing to do, but you get more coordinated with time. It won't solve your problem, but it should help. The more value they develop for RZ the less likely they'll be to leave the position for something else. Good luck! I know how frustrating and slow the training can be :wavey:


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