# Dumb goldens...show dogs



## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

this is not meant to offend anyone, it isn't my opinion; just a question.

are show bred goldens more "simple" than field goldens?


I have always thought of Blush as "simple", actually she is dumb as a stick... I think she was oxygen deprived at birth.

She is just slow, she is perfectly content to lay in her crate all day & when she looks at me, I can tell there isn't much going on in there. she is only 9 months old(which I forget, she is huge...) 

Blush can learn, but it takes quite a while, she also does things exactly the way she is taught (we used her left paw to ring the potty bells...she will only use her left paw now, etc.) Blush is out of show (conformation) lines.

Layla was showing at 11 months (obedience) and winning. she is always on the move & figures things out immediately. she still whines in her crate (at home) and is just busy all the time. she is from field/hunting lines.

they are both fantastic girls & I love their differences, but Blush frustrates me...

anyway, I had them with me at my in-laws thanksgiving & a distant cousin showed up. she is a professional handler & we have gotten quite close over the years. She started on goldens & moved to whippets, but still takes a few golden clients. she was playing around with my girls & I asked her about Blush. she said that Layla is exceptional, the smartest golden she has seen. (I'm sure she's not, but it made me fell good!) Blush is standard she said that "simple" is the way she describes most of the show goldens she has seen. (and not just goldens, lots of other show dogs as well) she said they are bred to run around a ring & look pretty, while Layla was bred to work. I agree with that, but I think show goldens can be just as intelligent & driven to work as field dogs. 

am I wrong, is Blush more normal than I think? opinions please.:wavey:


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I don't believe that show goldens are less intelligent than performance goldens as a rule of thumb if the lines are right( Yogi). I admit we did have a show golden like you describe your Blush- our Twin Beau D girl Cady was NOT a bright dog and had little drive, though she was very nice and decorative. However, show bred Tally with two champion parents, is like Layla. He's 15 months with his CGC, 2 CD legs, and ready to try his first JH leg in the spring, and I am a complete liability to him bc I have no idea what I'm doing and I am lax and unmotivated about getting to shows.He is just the brightest dog-whipsmart, intuitive, long attention span, lots of drive,and with endless gusto for retrieving, and all the various trainers comment on how quickly he learns(he is not the best athlete compared to the labs I will admit). We also have a bright field dog, Finn and a bright dual bred dog Tango(whose dad is racking up the titles in all areas at only 4), but they are not as smart as Tally. A friend's performance golden who has MH and is only a few points away from OTCH, she refers to as "mentally deficient but eager to please" which shows that a dog's intelligence must partially be in the eye of the beholder.


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## Wilson's REAL Mom (Nov 10, 2006)

Got to agree with you on that one. The difference in my two is, well, shocking. Shelby is sweet as anything. It takes her a while to learn something, but, once she learns it, she's very obedient. Wilson, on the other hand, catches on to anything quicker than lightning. But, he thinks things through. He won't always obey, just because you said so. It's amazing to watch him. You can almost see the gears turning in his head. Shelby, well, sometimes I look into those gorgeous black eyes and wonder if there is anybody home.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Here is a smart show golden- he is only 4 years old(tango's dad): AM CH HR, U-CD RN SH WCX VC BOSS CGC, working on MH.
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=153141
or
from my neck of the woods, Am. CH. Thornelea Lukens Luke CDX SH OJP, OAP WCX VCX CGC Can. CD


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

Wilson's REAL Mom said:


> Got to agree with you on that one. The difference in my two is, well, shocking. Shelby is sweet as anything. It takes her a while to learn something, but, once she learns it, she's very obedient. Wilson, on the other hand, catches on to anything quicker than lightning. But, he thinks things through. He won't always obey, just because you said so. It's amazing to watch him. You can almost see the gears turning in his head. Shelby, well, sometimes I look into those gorgeous black eyes and wonder if there is anybody home.


I'm glad it's not just me. I feel bad that we are always comparing the girls (I've yet to find a dog that truly compares to Layla...) but it is hard not too. I'm sure there are lots of beautiful show dogs that excel in performance as well. but most that I have seen have the same look as Blush. just content, but nothing really going on in there.

I think that if we had Blush first I would think differently about her, but in all honesty; she is just dumb...


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Here is a smart show golden- he is only 4 years old(tango's dad): AM CH HR, U-CD RN SH WCX VC BOSS CGC, working on MH.
> http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=153141


smart & beautiful!


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I have never owned any other Golden besides Brooks. He is so handsome, people even slow down their cars when I have him on a walk and call out how good looking he is.....
but, I would never say he is really smart. I don't mean he is stupid, just not really smart. He is also one of the laid back Goldens. Which is great if what you want is a "house dog"----which is what we want. 
So, I guess we are perfectly happy with how things are.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

My Gage was the dumbest dog I've ever had. I often described him as "dumb as a rock" or "dumb as a block of wood." That said, he was a very loving, happy dog, and Julia's best friend. So sometimes intelligence just isn't all that important. Gage definitely was not show-quality.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

My dog's retarded.... hahaha. 

As a puppy he used to run head on into walls and table legs.... maybe that did it.

I would LOVE to see a trainer try to work with Tuckie...they'd be like "*** is wrong with him?" lmao


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## Golden Leo (Dec 3, 2008)

I must say that I laughed a bit.... It's sounds just like that - are blonds dumber than brunets?
Dogs are just like people, there are more intelligent and less intelligent, it doesn't have anything to do if it's a show dog or not... Nor are they all agile, nor show dog ( it is hard, hard to get true show dog) and sadly not all of them have their inborn abilities.


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## Dinsdale (Feb 26, 2008)

Of the 4 "goldens" I've had, 1 was a golden mutt, 1 a field, and 2 "show."

Not sure I could distinguish between the 4 in terms of intelligence. IMO, all were pretty darned smart. At least they were smart enough to do everything I want a dog to do, and not so smart as to require any special stimulation.

Kind of a sidetrack, but I read Dr. Coren's book on Dog Intelligence the other day, and thought it interesting that after describing the different types of dog intelligence, and differences between breeds, he specifically discussed that each particular owner ought to carefully consider whether or not they WANTED a smart dog. Because the smarter the dog, the more stimulation you are going to need to provide it. A "lazy" owner might far prefer a dumber, lower maintenance breed. Pretty obvious, I guess, but it kinda made a lightbulb go off for me seeing it stated so boldly in print.


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## agoldenliferanch (Aug 1, 2008)

In my household we run the gamut in the smarts department. My oldest, Abby is from show lines and is the smartest of the bunch. I wish I could bottle her personality and brain power, she's simply the best. Molly is an incredible field dog, she's as fast as the wind and does incredible tricks like diving for tennis balls on the bottom of the lake. She's also the troublemaker able to leap tall buildings in a single bound to get a errant loaf of bread, Sophie is our resident dumb blond, a pretty princess who still can't give me her paw, just stares at me blankly, but lovely and loving. Cooper is in-between in the smarts, he doesn't look at he gets it when I'm trying to teach him something and then all of a sudden he'll perform and we're all pleasantly surprised. So at least in our house, style of dog doesn't enter the equation.


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## FranH (May 8, 2005)

Having some proper training from the start surely helps to develop the dog into a "smart" animal. 
I own a stubborn golden......"Holly". Rosie, on the other hand, is so eager to learn. I consider them both to be intelligent...they just use that intelligence in different ways.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I think it has to do with breeding and then there are "accidents" in utero(maybe oxygen deprivation) 
Selka is so smart he seems human. I do believe he knows everything I am saying. (DH thinks I live in Lala land!) He could have been a champion in several areas if I had persevered.

Gunner on the other hand is loving, obedient (he does learn very well) and gorgeous but he has a screw loose.
His anxiety problems are the cause, I think. Something in his brain is misfiring. If I speak in a stern voice to Selka (rarely) Gunner slinks away like I am mad at HIM! Same goes if my grandsons are here and get in trouble! Gunner thinks he was bad! I feel so bad for him, especially when he gets so terrifeid in storms etc.


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

lgnutah said:


> I have never owned any other Golden besides Brooks. He is so handsome, people even slow down their cars when I have him on a walk and call out how good looking he is.....
> but, I would never say he is really smart. I don't mean he is stupid, just not really smart. He is also one of the laid back Goldens. Which is great if what you want is a "house dog"----which is what we want.
> So, I guess we are perfectly happy with how things are.


We get that with Blush too, probably why people think Layla is a mix; compared to Blush & her pretty coat, Layla looks like a mouse.



Jackson'sMom said:


> My Gage was the dumbest dog I've ever had. I often described him as "dumb as a rock" or "dumb as a block of wood." That said, he was a very loving, happy dog, and Julia's best friend. So sometimes intelligence just isn't all that important. Gage definitely was not show-quality.


Blush is the happiest dog on earth & I can't wait to have kids. I know that she will be a wonderful kids dog. one of those they will remember their whole lives. Layla too, but Blush is the snuggly lovable one. Layla just likes to play.



GoldenLover84 said:


> My dog's retarded.... hahaha.
> 
> As a puppy he used to run head on into walls and table legs.... maybe that did it.
> 
> I would LOVE to see a trainer try to work with Tuckie...they'd be like "*** is wrong with him?" lmao


I had to laugh at this! Remember Blush's knot head days...? she was constantly running into things, didn't really learn to run until about 5 months old, & still falls down steps occasionally.

I guess she isn't alone. Maybe she isn't as dumb as we think. Maybe she just is more laid back & less driven. it is just glaringly obvious comparing our girls...Thanks, I feel better about my dumb blond now!


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## tobelevski (May 10, 2005)

It just proves you can't have brains an beauty!


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

Glad you feel better!! 

Tucker just lays around all the time too. He's a couch potato and is very content just layin someplace chewing on his tire.

It's funny when you try to get him to come to you when you're outside he'll just stand there and stare at you or walk away in the other direction hahaha.


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## Wilson's REAL Mom (Nov 10, 2006)

LOVEisGOLDEN said:


> I'm glad it's not just me. I feel bad that we are always comparing the girls (I've yet to find a dog that truly compares to Layla...) but it is hard not too. I'm sure there are lots of beautiful show dogs that excel in performance as well. but most that I have seen have the same look as Blush. just content, but nothing really going on in there.
> 
> I think that if we had Blush first I would think differently about her, but in all honesty; she is just dumb...


I keep saying that Shelby isn't really that dumb, it's just that we're comparing her to Wilson, and Einstein would pale in comparison.

I homeschooled all my kids, and one of the big difficulties was with my oldest 2. My oldest dd thought she was stupid, only because she kept comparing herself to her younger (2.5 years younger) brother, who was/is a genius. When she went to college and was making A's easily, people kept telling her how smart she was, and she kept saying, "Yeah, but you ought to see Ben!"

I kind of think about my two dogs that way. Shelby may be smart, but you ought to see Wilson! 

And, to tell the truth, Wilson and Ben are so alike, personality-wise, that it's scary. They are both too smart for their own good, hard working, super curious, and two of the most strong-willed creatures on God's green earth!


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

FranH said:


> Having some proper training from the start surely helps to develop the dog into a "smart" animal.
> I own a stubborn golden......"Holly". Rosie, on the other hand, is so eager to learn. I consider them both to be intelligent...they just use that intelligence in different ways.


Layla thought she was being neglected when we got Blush. I spent every minute with this puppy. I switched layla out of her classes & took Blush. I knew from the beginning this dog was "special". she is very obedient, new behaviors just take longer.



Debles said:


> I think it has to do with breeding and then there are "accidents" in utero(maybe oxygen deprivation)
> Selka is so smart he seems human. I do believe he knows everything I am saying. (DH thinks I live in Lala land!) He could have been a champion in several areas if I had persevered.
> 
> Gunner on the other hand is loving, obedient (he does learn very well) and gorgeous but he has a screw loose.
> His anxiety problems are the cause, I think. Something in his brain is misfiring. If I speak in a stern voice to Selka (rarely) Gunner slinks away like I am mad at HIM! Same goes if my grandsons are here and get in trouble! Gunner thinks he was bad! I feel so bad for him, especially when he gets so terrified in storms etc.


I just asked Layla where daddy was (on his way home from work) and she is now sitting by the front door. most of her competitive obedience training is simply my friend calling commands and us heeling in a box. I can't follow commands at practice, or she follows the calls & not me. This dog knows English!

Blush does the same thing as Gunner, if we raise our voices she either goes behind the bed, or becomes jello on the floor. she has never shown any anxiety issues, she would just rather avoid conflict...


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

I was afraid I would get flamed for even asking. I'm glad it's not just Blush, I know she is smarter than we give her credit for. she just doesn't care. she could show Novice obedience, she is trained for it. but I know she would fall asleep somewhere along the course...


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## tannernoodle (Mar 19, 2008)

Wow, I don't know if it's true but I can relate to you big time. Tanner was a field golden, big red guy. Smart...not real high strung...but I'd say he was pretty **** smart...kinda like he always knew what to do when I wanted him to...then he died.

Along comes rescue Tucker...blonde buff show dog style...I swear...if you opened his skull you'd see a gerbil running in a hamster wheel! I'm not kidding! He's so full of energy yet he'll lay in my room all day long...when he's not, he's dancing around like a maniac wanting attention. I can tell him something ten times like last night, he's right on me at the sink like I'm gonna feed him. I go, you're supper is in your dish...go eat....go eat...DER!!!!! I had to take him over and he about explodes at his food bowl...it's like there's a tornado inside him that wants to come out. Kinda like the tazmanian devil...yet he means no harm either. He just really loves us...if you pet him, he goes into such a ordeal that he falls on the floor at your feet just stupid as can be. Tanner had grace about being moocy for love...he'd just come over and lean into you and paw you. Tucker about takes you out in the process! He's cute and loveable and a real sweet dog to my three year old daughter who just loves tromping on the guy and climbing all over him...so it doesn't matter, we still love him and he IS still adjusting to his new home...I just sometimes wish he wasn't such a Skittle Head...he and my last dog are night and day! Just wish he would mellow out a little...You can barely give him attention without him wanting it all. A little pet on the head and he's climbing on you wanting more.


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

too show just how laid back, dumb, whatever blush is...

I hate this, I know it is bad for her joints & I fuss about it all the time...but DH just doesn't get it...

He calls it the smart test... he tries this on just about every dog he is around. He'll have them sit, then pick up their front legs & push them over. (not hard, just one slow smooth movement) almost every dog stands on their back legs when you raise their front ones (if not the first time, the second) but Blush just falls over like a dork. she gets so excited over it too...


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

Are we comparing: intelligence with trainability?.
A dog can be stupid but very easy to train while an intelligent dog,just gets everything quickly whether taught or not!.
Priska is both and my 1st golden!.She is among my most intelligent and trainable dog!.Get it fast and doesn't need much repetition!.She is considered a field golden!.
In general,the will to please is very strong in this breed,thus,making them,very easy to train!.
Some dogs are more intelligent than others but I think it has more to do with the individual than if they are show or not!.
I come from a country where dogs need both the look and the Natural aptitude test to become a champion!.


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## goldensmum (Oct 23, 2007)

Ralph had a good show pedigree, but i must admit he was not the brightest of dogs, having said that i think he was left alone a lot. When we got him at 6 years old we had to show him how to play with toys

Ginny's and Holly's parents were the same, Ginny went from class 1 to class 6 at dog school in under 2 years, but Holly was slower, so in their case i think it's down to the individuals.


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## Dinsdale (Feb 26, 2008)

golden&hovawart said:


> Are we comparing: intelligence with trainability?


I believe Coren distinguished between the two. Maybe called on instinctive/problem solving and the other adaptive/trainability. IIRC he said some dogs like dobes and shepherds excelled at both. Goldens and labs he said were exceptional and training, but not as high on problem solving. OTOH, I believe terriers were the opposite, excelling at problem solving, but not as trainable. 

I find Coren's books fascinating. They are the best I've seen yet in terms of explaining how your dogs' brains work and why they act as they do.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I don't consider it dumb vs. smart. I think it's more about drive. 

Jasper is my laid back, gentle soul. He will do anything for me, but he is more timid about it and I have to approach training with him from a different direction than I do Danny. 

Danny has drive and the need for stimulation, so training is natural for him. He also doesn't really have a timid bone in his body, so he is willing to try anything I ask of him.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Ok, I'll probably p*ss off a few people too, but I think it has a lot to do with what the breeder's priorities are.
There are a few around here who breed STRICTLY for looks, and they produce some really pretty dogs that are dumb as a box of rocks.
There are a few who breed strictly for performance, and their dogs work great but are so out of standard a lot of them end up with health issues, or the dogs are so hyper no one but a professional obedience trainer can handle them.
Ah, then there are the gems, the breeders who realize that a truly well-bred golden is an all around dog, and they don't breed for one thing to the exclusion of all other characteristics. That's how you end up with the awesome goldens who are titled in multiple events, and there are tons and tons of them around.
JMHO of course.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

This made be giggle as we have the same thing here. I don't think its ALL about lines but it does help. For example:

Kali is smart as whip, very brainy and we have come to find very birdy this is her pedigree http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=198784

Party is VERY food motivated but in in all honesty she is fairly dense, she could be taught of course but would take probably twice as long as to teach Kali. While she is not all that brilliant she does have the most balanced stable temperament and is happy and confident. http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=282985

Taylor & Hugo like Kali big smarty pants kids http://www.k9data.com/siblings.asp?ID=299397 Ecspecially, for how young they are they are VERY brainy and use it hourly. They are balanced kids happy and outgoing. 

Bleeker (all littermates) bless his little soul but Bleeker but my boy is a simpleton (thanks Dad) http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=299397 We often joke with his nickname being Dullard. Cute as a button but not at all brainy. Like Party is sweet and stable in temperament, confident and resiliant. Go figure it was Hugo who took quite a while for me to get breathing at birth. 

Just like conformation and structure very throughout a litter so do brains IMO. They are all diffrent as you have seen even from the same litter and upbringing until about 16 weeks. I do believe they can be taught though  just some take a little longer. Just goes to show you LOL.


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

:appl::appl::appl: I agree, while I absolutely love both of my girls, If I could pick & choose between them, I'd have Layla's brains & personality with Blush's beauty.



hotel4dogs said:


> Ok, I'll probably p*ss off a few people too, but I think it has a lot to do with what the breeder's priorities are.
> There are a few around here who breed STRICTLY for looks, and they produce some really pretty dogs that are dumb as a box of rocks.
> There are a few who breed strictly for performance, and their dogs work great but are so out of standard a lot of them end up with health issues, or the dogs are so hyper no one but a professional obedience trainer can handle them.
> Ah, then there are the gems, the breeders who realize that a truly well-bred golden is an all around dog, and they don't breed for one thing to the exclusion of all other characteristics. That's how you end up with the awesome goldens who are titled in multiple events, and there are tons and tons of them around.
> JMHO of course.


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

Ash said:


> This made be giggle as we have the same thing here. I don't think its ALL about lines but it does help. For example:
> 
> Kali is smart as whip, very brainy and we have come to find birdy this is her pedigree http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=198784
> 
> ...


just one more reason why I am so in love with Taylor!


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## marieb (Mar 24, 2008)

Maddie is from a show pedigree and I feel like she is smart most of the time - but she has her moments. She definitely learns things quickly and is willing to please; but then we get to obedience class and she goes wild trying to play with the other dogs/people and forgets all her manners.


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## tannernoodle (Mar 19, 2008)

Good points. I honestly believe Tucker would make an awesome agility dog. He has the drive and wants to be by my side and listens to me much better than Tanner ever did. I mean he can be sleeping on the floor and I'll lay in bed and if I just use his name in a sentance, his tail starts smacking and he pops up like, you need me mom? He'll stop and turn on a dime if I just say, Hey! Or Tuck! He's very willing to please. I don't doubt that he is highly trainable. Basically all he knows is sit and come...he sticks to me like glue. I love that about him. I never have to worry about him running away off leash and if someone walks by and he walks to them, just one TUCKER and he's right back after me...I plan on trying agility training with him in the spring. I think he has a lot of hidden potential and just needs some guidance.


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## Celeigh (Nov 29, 2007)

Am I the only one that finds this thread a little sad? 

I feel bad for Blush. She might excel at something like therapy work that takes a special temperament and skill that Layla wouldn't. So often people talk about their dogs here like they are their children - I'm sure no one here would call one of their kids dumb and push them over just to see what they'd do just because they don't excel in the same area as their other kid.

I'm trying not to flame, but hopefully you can find out where Blush's talent lies and encourage her in that direction as you encourage Layla. It might be really stimulating for her and she could surprise you.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

My Tilly is so clever she acts a little dumb sometimes!! (I do actually believe that...she likes to laze around while the boy runs around doing trick after trick...it is quite a skill to learn how to do as little work possible for the same reward)


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

Celeigh said:


> Am I the only one that finds this thread a little sad?
> 
> I feel bad for Blush. She might excel at something like therapy work that takes a special temperament and skill that Layla wouldn't. So often people talk about their dogs here like they are their children - I'm sure no one here would call one of their kids dumb and push them over just to see what they'd do just because they don't excel in the same area as their other kid.
> 
> I'm trying not to flame, but hopefully you can find out where Blush's talent lies and encourage her in that direction as you encourage Layla. It might be really stimulating for her and she could surprise you.


I feel bad for Blush too & I smack DH everytime he pushes her, but it is all true. Blush has an issue with licking that we are working to resolve before we can do any therapy work. I am going to start showing her in Rally this spring, she won't win like Lay, but she will finish the course & qualify. Blush's purpose in life is to make Layla happy & she is perfect at that.


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## Old Gold Mum2001 (Feb 25, 2007)

Basically, I think one gets what one puts into it, and what a dog knows is expected of him/her. KWIM?


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Well I think they are both beautiful, and will make your life complete in their own way.

I think Obi was starved of oxygen at birth. The breeder said one got stuck, and we've got a pretty good idea which one it was We often say he's the "lights on but no-one home" of the two, but we love him none the less!

Izzie on the other hand (same lines) is as smart as a whip, loves to retrieve, has got great drive, doesn't give up, is eager to please and can run all day! She is from show lines here in the UK, but our particular breeder always breeds from dogs who have the working ability.

Here in the UK a dog cannot become a full Champion unless he has shown working ability... a good thing too IMO.

There's no doubt that the Golden Retriever is capable of doing a multitude of jobs, which is why they make such wonderful companions, they can't all be the same, we wouldn't want them to be would we?


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## norabrown (Jul 20, 2007)

I have the opposite....Samson is from show dogs and he is so bright. I teach him things and he catches on very quickly. Delilah has more of the field dog look to her, but I don't know her blood-lines. And it takes me 3 times as long to teach her anything. She is a bit ADD it seems. Samson is stubborn and like someone else says, I can see him thinking things through before doing them. Delilah is a bit more "duh". But I love her.


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

Old Gold Mum2001 said:


> Basically, I think one gets what one puts into it, and what a dog knows is expected of him/her. KWIM?


I think this is so true. I just had to retire my berner from agility because of some health issues. He is one leg short of an agility title. I am left feeling really guilty about this. Sure he has a lot more challenges than my goldens in doing agility, but I listened to too many of the stereotypes that people give to berners and made excuses instead of finding ways around the issues. The only reason that dog doesn't have at least an agility title or two is because of me not believing in him and working with him as much as I should have. I need to start working him in obedience and rally (which I think he will love). I hope I can do a better job in letting him live up to his potential there. Maybe then I can stop feeling so guilty.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

Well.... my girls better be able to do both. Versatility in our breed is sadly lacking (hense the differentiation between "field golden" and "show golden", which to me shouldn't be there), but I'm of the opinion that my dogs better be able to walk out of a show ring and into an obedience ring, agility ring, on a field and track to the glove, or retrieve the ball over and over and over and over (I dont do ducks, mainly because dead things is not my cup of tea, but I would do it if I could find somebody that does it to work with and had the time). 

Sydney, for example, has her championship and is titled in agility, obedience and tracking. Its quite rare to look through a show catalog and see a dog with a Ch at the start of their name and a tracking title at the end. But its of great importance for me.

Paige probably wont have any titles after her name other than her CGN until she's 3. Reason for that is that I'm training novice through utility concurrently for obedience and I haven't even started her on the others yet. She'll get there though.... its just a matter of finding the time to work with her on anything more than agility. This last summer was taken up by getting Sydney ready for her tracking test, so Paige was on the back burner. 

I think each dog is an individual and they learn differently, but its important not to confuse intelligence with trainability. BJ


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

It reminds me of the lab debate chocolate vs yellow/black if you know what i mean


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Einstein has all australian champions exept his mum in his pedigree where Shelley hasn't got a single champion in her pedigree. I find both my dogs very smart Shelley learnt how to sit,drop,stay and come in 4 days. Shes had very good recall from day one of me geting her. Some times Shelley can be a bit silly and hit her head on things but what golden doesn't. I have just stopped comparing Einstein to Shelley as there both completely different dogs. I treat them both the same and they get trained the same way. At the moment i'm teaching Shelley road sense eg look both ways if no cars she gets the command ok to walk. Einstein is the same he learnt pretty quickly with not much work from me. Einstein knows the commands sit,drop,stay,come,halt,wait,ignore and knows how to cross a road and has 99% recall. I wouldn't class my dogs as dumb i find there both intelligent in there own way.


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

I think you need to find what turns her on - if anything. Griff can be a loaf and lounge around but certain times of day he becomes a maniac - ready to play, etc.

She sounds bored - maybe she needs someone to play with her more. 

That said - Field Goldens are highly driven and if you don't keep them busy they can be naughty.

You have to pick the Golden that suites your lifestyle. In my younger days I could have dealt with a Fieldie - now that I'm middle aged, (ugh - that hurt to say that y'know) - a conformation Golden is more my speed.


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## Old Gold Mum2001 (Feb 25, 2007)

kgiff said:


> I think this is so true. I just had to retire my berner from agility because of some health issues. He is one leg short of an agility title. I am left feeling really guilty about this. Sure he has a lot more challenges than my goldens in doing agility, but I listened to too many of the stereotypes that people give to berners and made excuses instead of finding ways around the issues. The only reason that dog doesn't have at least an agility title or two is because of me not believing in him and working with him as much as I should have. I need to start working him in obedience and rally (which I think he will love). I hope I can do a better job in letting him live up to his potential there. Maybe then I can stop feeling so guilty.


Aww don't feel quilty, maybe he'll love obedience and rally more so 

With you working so much with him, he will certainly give you his all 

I know mine wouldn't have a clue, and only because I have never done anything like that with them. They're AWESOME at being pampered, well behaved house pets  LOL although recall has been kinda sketchy for one of mine on occasion :doh:!

That's the only thing I've put into them, and that's what they'll give me


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

Griffyn'sMom said:


> I think you need to find what turns her on - if anything. Griff can be a loaf and lounge around but certain times of day he becomes a maniac - ready to play, etc.
> 
> She sounds bored - maybe she needs someone to play with her more.
> 
> ...


Both of the girls are very well trained. they play all day long & have a great life. Blush is very turned on by everything; toys, treats, praise. she just doesn't retain much. Anything she learned before 5 months old, she does great on, but new things take longer. Layla acts much older than she is. she still zooms daily, but when it is training time, she gets very serious.

I wouldn't say either are naughty, they are left free to roam the house (as long as it is safe for them to do so) & have never messed with anything; they have never chewed anything inappropriate. i had them at my last llama show, playing ball in a secure area where they have frisbee competitions. A couple of men were walking through & they both took off to great them; a simple, "girls, drop" and they both hit the ground. they didn't move a muscle until I was there with the leads. But that is with Layla, Blush mimics her; on her own is questionable.

Blush is trainable, it just takes her 80 times longer than Layla. Example: Layla took 15 minutes to have a 100% reliable drop on recall. Blush has been practicing this twice daily (20 minute training sessions) for 17 days. she is at about 75%...


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

This is an interesting topic. I kinda have a strange mixture.

Aubrie is doesn't have the best conformation. She has some of the older Laurell goldens (and that is about it conformation wise) and her dam's side has some field line goldens, but quite honestly, I don't see that the breeder really focused on anything :uhoh:.

Layla is from service/therapy dog lines and her dam has the Faera line goldens. She is a great combination of both. She is pretty, petite, and could has no disqualifications for the breed ring, but I decided not to do it because she would not be put up because she has little coat and I would like to see better rear angulation. This girl has a nice topline and carries it it so well when she moves (one of the perks about not having tons of coat :... we can't hide that topline). I may bring her out when I get out of college as a veteran.

I think the real question is intelliegence vs trainablitlty. Aubrie is VERY intelligent. She knows how to do all the right stuff to get your attention. She will learn new skills fairly easility and just as soon teach HERSELF the way to get out of doing it the right way. She's kinda a smart slacker . This makes training and showing somewhat difficult as she is a little unpredictable. She either does outstanding or poorly. We are either in the ribbons or just getting by!

Layla... I don't even know where to begin. She makes me sooo happy. I have honestly never ever met a dog in my life and probably will never own a dog again that works like her. She has the drive and working ability of a BC. She has never ceased to amaze me. At 4 months old she could do a Pre Novice run. At 6 months old, she could do a Novice run. She is ready to trial in Open (I just need to put her in a trial). At 20 months old, we are beginning to seriosly work utility. She is doing everything reliably except the articles (because we don't have them yet). I can take 10-15 minutes and teach her a new trick from scratch! She has always been like this, it isn't something I pushed for or even relized I had until I had instructors and respected Golden trainers pull me aside at shows and practice. I could go on and on but this is turning into a brag... :

I believe it is a combination of pedigree, environment, and just the pup's personality. I have seen dogs from purely show pedigrees that are competitive in Open B and Utility B. I have seen goldens from "Performance/Pet lines" that have produced a nice pup that could be pointable. I have seen some phenominal rescues. It really is a gamble when you pick a pup in some ways. I had no idea what was in store for me when I got Layla... I was to get the 2nd pick (of 2 might I add) of the females. I originally wanted the 1st pick female, but I will asure you I would have it no other way :smooch::wave:


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## Megan (Mar 21, 2008)

Both my dogs are pretty bright. But i must be Honest, Mandie does seem to be a bit smarter, she picks up on things faster(which isn't always good) she is also a bit high strung with other dogs though, and has an endless amount of energy. She is two.

As Roy is nine, very gentle and willing to please, not stupid at all. But also not as smart as Mandie. He tends to be a bit more relaxed and outgoing, while Mandie is sort of reserved.


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## TinaMarie143 (Dec 11, 2008)

Wow! I totally agree with you!... Elvis is a darker color and super intelligent.. a lil too smart sometimes.. but Priscilla is a very light color and the kids call her dumbo.. she isnt the brightest bulb in the box... I love her very much still.. she loves to cuddle and look pretty... but she has an attention span of an ADD kid on crack.... Could it be the color.. I never really thought of that..


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

I think Wiggs was born the wrong colour  For a pale blond, he certainly has his priorities on prey (be it bird, rabbit, cat or whatever). He picks up on new things very quickly and by introducing a new toy to him, he learns the name and understands when I say, "Bring _______".


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

it has nothing to do with color, more of the breeders goals & bloodlines. Both of mine are light goldens, but they each had lighter & darker littermates.


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

Wiggs is mostly from conformation lines and sired by a Can CH, SDHF...his sire only recently started doing field work and the breeder was surprised by the innate ability...the dam's breeder on the other hand...well let's just say their goals weren't ethical in the end.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Celeigh said:


> Am I the only one that finds this thread a little sad?
> 
> I feel bad for Blush. She might excel at something like therapy work that takes a special temperament and skill that Layla wouldn't. So often people talk about their dogs here like they are their children - I'm sure no one here would call one of their kids dumb and push them over just to see what they'd do just because they don't excel in the same area as their other kid.
> 
> I'm trying not to flame, but hopefully you can find out where Blush's talent lies and encourage her in that direction as you encourage Layla. It might be really stimulating for her and she could surprise you.


 
Yes. Thank you. My dogs are "show dogs" and they certainly are not dumb. Nor have the majority of the show dogs that I have been around been "dumb". 
Interestingly, many of the dogs that people call "show type" aren't. 
I fully believe that you will get out of a dog what you put into, with rare exceptions.


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

Both of mine are from conformation lines. Considered show quality but not show dogs. Darby is way too big. Kirby could probably show if that was the direction I wanted - it's not.

Kirby is very smart, she got her CGC first try at 15 months, the trainers dogs don't have their CGC, agility titles yes. I enrolled her in Rally obedience to work on her heeling and focus and guess what, she excels. She loves it and we have a blast. I may never go to a trial (I am way to nervous to compete) but we are having fun. 

Darby has trouble focusing with distractions. He knows all his commands and is much better at home the Kirby, he is very smart but laid back. I think he has ADD, our trainer shakes his head and mutters "blondes". He is my big, sensitive, loving lap dog and I wouldn't trade him for anything. 

BTW - my trainer has field dogs and admits they can be difficult at times. Of course he named his little girl Diva, I think with a name like that I would do my own thing too!!


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## Bogart'sMom (Sep 16, 2005)

I realize this is an old thread but after reading the beginning I find it pretty sad. Of course every dog is diffrent. My Bogart is from conformation lines and with him the sky is the limit. I'm the one holding him back not using his full potential. He is almost 4 years old now I never had a dog before him that I did so much training with. First he practicly trained himself walking nicely on leash, he never had to wear anything other then a normal Flatcollar. He loves training, we do RallyO and he has his RallyO Advanced title, he has his CGC which we got at 15 months old. Last year we tested for TDI (Therapy Dog International) and now we reguarly visit our local Hospital and he loves everyone there. We do agiltiy for fun because I'm not coordinated enough (I make up my own course:yuck. He is an awesome trail dog/hiking Buddy, he doesn't go off the trail and stays with me. It gives him and me freedom because he can be off leash. We have taken Trick Classes, doggy Freestyle classes and he did awesome there. My first Golden was alot more intense she was smart as a whip but again I was the one that kept her potential limited.
Please don't talk about dumb Goldens it's just not true.
Elke, ZsaZsa and Bogart


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Why did this thread even resurface? geez.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Is there a rule that an open thread cannot be revived or resurface? Because if there is I missed it. Lots of threads are revived, usually because someone hadn't seen it previously, which happens to be the case with me. Some are revived after many, many months, even a year or more.

And I have an interest in the topic.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

right......


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I think this thread is kinda sad too! The service dog program I work with prefers show lines by far over field lines (we've bred to some Ch. studs). The field dogs, while bright, can be too hyper and hard to handle. The show dogs are awesome because they are smart but calm. Our current puppies have a show dad and they are so smart--they are only 12 weeks and are already tugging open doors, turning on lights, retrieving, sitting, rolling over, turning, etc.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Lucky doesn't _seem_ as sharp as the other dogs I have had. He doen't work to communicate his needs or wants like my other more pushy, intrusive and manipulative dogs. 

For instance...if he needs to go to the bathroom he will stand there and wait...and wait...and wait..until he is noticed. If no one notices he will lay by the door. If no one notices that he might need to go out...he will go to sleep. When we walk near him he will wake up and stand waiting, glad that we are finally letting him out. Not a "smart' way of doing things.

My other dogs would bark, run into the room where I was and coax me using one method or another. Lucky just sits there.....waiting patiently.

But when he has diarrea.....my Lucky WILL run into the room where I'm at, yelling at me to get him OUT. He will talk to me and use any means necessary to make me get to that door! 


Lucky is the most patient dog ever. I don't think he is unintellegent really. I think he is easy to please, patient, and has a laid-back personality. 

Though...one time when we had the crate. I tossed him a pizza crust when he was sitting by the crate. It went into the crate between the bars. He pawed and pawed for it tryig to reach the pizza crust through the bars. The door was open...never occured to him to _walk in to the crate_ to get his pizza. So he is not a problem solver.


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## BearValley (Nov 30, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> ...Though...one time when we had the crate. I tossed him a pizza crust when he was sitting by the crate. It went into the crate between the bars. He pawed and pawed for it tryig to reach the pizza crust through the bars. The door was open...never occured to him to _walk in to the crate_ to get his pizza. So he is not a problem solver.


Now that right there is cute, I don't care who you are! :doh:

That just shows that dogs don't generalize well, and some less well than others.


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