# Fall 2016 Field Training



## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I really disagree with you about derbies being about straight lines and not about marking. AT least down here in the south. My mentor says that when dogs are very good markers they do good in derbies. Dogs that aren't superb markers but are good at learning concepts can do well in the higher stakes. These dogs can learn how to mark better. Derbies are under two. You can't teach a dog how to mark that well in that little time if they can't mark. Super good markers that are ten months old can beat older dogs even without being trained on concepts. I've seen it with my own eyes. And I've seen dogs place that cheated ponds or take banana lines. Shoot, Proof has done things like that in trials. It just depends on what the other dogs do. If a dog takes the straightest line to a mark and pins it they should do better than a dog that goes all over the place and then goes right to the bird. 

Now, that being said. Concepts are taught to my dog. I teach him to hold his angles on hills, not to square ponds, hold lines against the wind, not to go behind a gun and so much more. All of this is so he can not break down so to speak and lose his mark. It is more about helping him get to the mark even through obstacles. But if he can't look out and mark a bird 400 yards away and perceive the depth of that mark and then go on to remember that mark after picking up a crippled exciting bird then I have nothing to work with in the first place. Marking is the most important thing. Furthermore, some dogs just take good straight lines naturally. Ben can back me up when I say Proof has always taken a really straight line to his marks. Sure he had to be decheated on water but he still naturally had no problem going over points or swimming past points depending on the line of the mark. 


And as far as handling. I RARELY handle Proof to a mark. OMG I rarely. I mean maybe once a month if even that. Maybe even less. I will rerun a mark but unless its a very hard far water mark, little booger needs to come back in and watch that bird again. He obviously didn't mark it very well. Handling is just going to make him dependent on me, possibly create a popping issue, and not make his own decisions. It also breaks down his confidence in my opinion. Let him get a correction and try again. Think about it, i'd rather get corrected and come back and nail it, proving that I can do it, then get handled to a mark and going into the truck, not doing anything but telling me that I can't do it on my own. 

Right now I'm on my second week of training with Proof since he got back. The first week we didn't train and the second, right before our first derby back, Proof had an injury that prevented us from training. He healed a day before the trial, ugh. We've run a few derbies but we are still getting our groove on again. its more like me being so rusty. Oh well, they are fun to run, I enjoy seeing some friends I've made since I started and Proof loves them. I guess losing is something I have to get used to, he is gonna be losing quite a bit in all age stakes, ha ha!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I haven't run a real Derby but all I know is that Maisey is a great marker and she has been taught things that helped her be successful at the Specialty Derby. She fought factors that made so many dogs backside the guns. 

I ran a handling drill today with Maisey, mostly for control and communication since she goes back and forth between me and the pro. I hadn't done any handling with her in weeks since I wanted her marking to be top notch for the derby. She is very sharp and so fun to run.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

MOP, thanks for your thoughts. I do see that dogs that handle seem to do better at derbies than those that don't handle. That's from my own observations at derbies of the dogs I know. So I made the leap that a dog that can handle and learn to run a straight line, will run a derby better. That's where I came up with the idea.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I think it is possible that you could "save" a dog that didn't mark the bird by having him run a straight line. I saw it at the national.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Yes, you definitely have the ability to save a dog by teaching him to take a straight line. I've seen people do that at derbies as well. I've not have had any success doing that myself. On saturday I showed Proof all his guns and he saw them but when it was time to turn to the go bird proof swung his head and locked in on a glinting white roof of a barn that was about 20 degrees left of the gunner but about half a mile away. I watched him sadly not observe the bird go down at all. When they called his number I reheeled him and he saw the right gunner. I told him good and sent him. He took a perfect line to the bird but since he had not marked it he overran it and put up a big hunt until he made his way back down to the shore to pick up his bird. I think I've got the only golden on the WHOLE planet that doesn't use his nose! UGH! So bottom line, Proof has 19 points based purely on his own marking skills, not by taking a straight line on a mark he didn't watch go down. I won't lie, though, I hope one day he will learn to take a straight line off of me and get his bird if he doesn't see it go down. At this time, I'm not sure that will ever happen. He relies on his eyes way too much and I can tell it throws him off if he didn't mark well. 

Stacey, really, this is just a game of skills mixed with luck. Luck meaning everything aligns in your favor and your dog is being less dog than the other dogs that day. Everyone is running the same test. You just have to train your dog not to succumb to the factors and be confident enough to run through that cover without dodging it so they can keep running to their mark or stay in the water until its time to get out. Some people do this by handling but others don't. So don't fret if that is not possible for you. Just keep training Riot with the concepts and he will begin to understand that he needs to hold his line regardless of what is in between him and the mark.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

MOP,
When Proof goes around something or follows a trail down a slope, do you whistle sit him and make him go through the the brush or cross the trail to go in a straight line? Riot doesn't do it often. Although Monday night he did. The slope we were on was in a park and the brush was high in clumps and the kids had cut trails crisscrossing through the brush. Riot could see over the brush, so it wasn't a visible obstacle. But he did not travel in a straight line to the pile. I didn't stop him. I had a pile of bumpers out about 100 yards that I was sending him to. No problem, other than the deviation from the straight line. Riot does use his nose. You can see him turn it on when he has a little trouble. Although he doesn't use it as much as a lot of dogs I see at tests. He is definitely good at lining. Already I can do a 7 bumper lining drill and send him to any bumper I'd like without an issue. He prefers to sit at my side and doesn't creep out in front of me, so he's easy to line. It's in casting we have a problem. I have to be very careful to not move my head or body in a direction I don't want to send him. He explosive and wil run in any direction he senses I will send him. So I have to go very slowly. Even so, my arm has hardly moved for the cast, and he's gone! Bam! I have to keep the whistle in my mouth all the time, to catch him if he went where I didn't want him to go. I can't look at a pile I don't want to send him to when he's waiting for a cast, or he might go there. He's so excited and crazy to go. The fun part is, he's not distracted by anything. Last night we did a series of walk out blinds to one single pile. There were people walking their dogs not 50 yards from the pile and Riot paid no attention to the other dogs or people. He's so focused! He really hates having any bumpers just laying about without a purpose. They just need to be gathers. The discard pile is often his pile of discontent, it must be picked up!


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Stacey no I don't handle proof through cover like you described. You want to set up the marks that if the dog does cheat or succumb to the factors that it's going to take him somewhere that gets him in trouble and that's where he gets the correction. For example if a dog decides to fall off a hill instead of angling up then he will probably end up in the direction of the other gun. Then when they go to that gun they get a correction and called back in. They watch the bird go down again and this time they most likely will take a better line. Does that make sense? And there was no handling involved.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

A "Great" Derby dog is "born" not made. That is they do the things required in the derby (marking and lining) "well" because that's the way they came from the womb. They mark well and run lines well because it's natural for them to and it's how they view their world.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

well, very exciting day for us yesterday. We all drove up to VA to run a derby. It was my first time in the area and the trial was run on the Steve Ferguson's Memorial grounds. There were lots of people that I knew going so it was fun. It such a great trial. The trial was very challenging yet, the distances in the first two series were the shortest we've run. The first series the guns weren't more than 125 yards but they were a good set up. The second series, wow! Again, marks not more than 200 yards but probably a lot less. It was unusual for me. I've not run a set up like it before. We ran along a mound, so the line was slightly on the mound, not much, though. Then it was an inverted double which we've run plenty of times. the difference is that it fell off the slope we stood on and into water! And it was super super cheaty. That slope really got the dogs running hard and the momentum just got them going around the pond. There were a few dogs that saw water and went for the short mark first. I would say more than half of the dogs didn't go into the water or put a foot in but cheated all the way around. Then they had hunts. The judges got LOTS of answers in the second series! yet, they let the dogs roll, just took notes and let dogs eliminate themselves. Third series, wow, I was so nervous on this one. The go bird was a straight shot in front along the water but going to land and next to a bale. BUT the memory bird was retired when the dog came back to the line to pick it up. It wasn't purposely retired, but the gunner was completely hidden behind a huge shrub. The correct line was to cut a corner, get over a dike at which point then the gun became visible on top of the dike, but then get back into the water and swim angled over two penisulas and then getting the bird up on a third penisula. I set proof up at the line and he looked out at the mark, not even caring about the gun being out of sight. I knew he knew where he was going at that point. I didn't sweat him too much. Proof literally took a straight line to the bird. I walked away with my mouth opened. I didn't know my dog could do such a mark with such perfection! Fourth series, pinched in double. Two super long swims. As one of the amateurs said, this set up has lots of places for the dogs to go and none of them were the right places. On the memory swim, I told the judges it was like the 3 minute stay in obedience. It felt like it would never end. ha ha! The line was a straight angle through some points and the dog couldn't see the gun at all during that time. Proof turned his head for a split second and looked at that short bird about 3/4 quarters in and I swear I thought don't do it, Proof, don't get tired and give in and lose your line. But he didn't and kept going.

We ended up getting first place!!! I am so proud of Proof and proud of me. I really worked hard at taking my time and Proof gave me all the effort he could. He showed me he has learned what he needs to do and I'm glad I didn't let him down. 
I had no idea how the placements were going to go down. The judges showed they were so fair and really were in this to test the natural talent of the dogs and not trick them. There were several talented dogs and very talented amateurs that were running those dogs. When they called our names I started to cry. It was my first first ever to get with Proof. It was the most amazing feeling. 
I wanted to place for Jake. I had run this trial with him in mind the whole day. To get first for Jake was the icing on the cake. Jake's legacy lives on!!!
Of course proof got to dine with us for dinner, we ordered him a child's menu with a hot dog and fries! Matt finally gets to cook him his steak he's had in the freezer for Proof's first first with us. I'm sure Proof is enjoying this one way more than he did when he got it up north, ha ha!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Uh-MAZE-ing so happy for you Shelby and Proofers!!! I got goosebumps reading about your test, and about Jake. Too cool.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Congratulations!! Proof and Shelby you are doing so well. We will continue to live vicariously though you! Please keep us informed on all the details!


Got out this morning to train on a new field. It's a field that was created a few years ago from fill that was too soft to be built on. So this field can't be developed. It's a bit of a drive at 25 minutes away, but well worth the drive. The only thing about it is, the sun is so low in the sky this time of year and the mountains are to the south of this field, so there is no direct sunlight on this field until 11:30 this morning. As the days get shorter and the sun goes lower in the sky, this field we won't be able to use. Here's some photos of the field. It's really nice for super long marks. We might be able to pull off 400 yard marks. Being in the shade it was 24 degrees and very frosty.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

gosh that is just beautiful and so foreign to me down here in this sun


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Never buy property in Alaska with mountains or hills to the south of you. Winter can be hard. There are properties up that valley that do not get direct sunlight for 4 months of the year or longer. How's that for depresssing.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Well, we ran in Alabama this weekend and Proof got fourth. It was a very indecisive test and while Proof did amazing, so did a lot of other dogs. I believe it came down to lines because Proof literally had no hunts on his birds with the exception of not lining his flyer and doing a twist or two to come up with it. Not really a hunt. The other birds he went and put his nose on them. The thing that got him I believe was in the third series there was some really strong wind and proof got lazy and let it push him on an island. He didn't hunt the island just used it to pivot back into the water in which he swam and got out and just got his bird. But there were a few dogs that didn't get on the island. I was actaully very happy with fourth because before they called placements I just didn't know if he had out shined enough dogs to place. 

Man, I'm just so excited about proof. He is in this to win it. He loves this game, its kind of really cool to have a partner like him. Its like he understands this is a contest or something and he works his butt off to mark those birds and he does his best at not cheating water or trying to stay on line. I watched him shoulder the wind to run to his land mark. They said it was 400 yards long. He ran sideways the whole way, ha ha. But the real cool part is proof has had a bitch in heat at home. This is the third placement with a dog in season making him crazy all week training. His focus at the trials is better! I hope they stay that way. My trainer said I should pay for a bitch in season before he runs every trial. ha ha. Not to mention, Proof exudes confidence. He really thinks HE is the best dog in the field. Its great cause I'm always a nervous wreck. 

It is so fun to run this dog. on the way to the holding blind he is all flash and prances at a heel to the blind, making sure he marks every tall weed on the way there. Then he lays down in the blind. Then we start our walk to the mat and he is like a coiled spring. He is almost crazy, looking all around for guns and what is going on, trying to restrain himself from going ahead to the mat. Then on the mat it is like you can see his whole body just relax and breath. He settles in and starts looking. He gives the short bird a nice stare down and then looks long. I show him one more time and then we get on to the long bird. I signal. He stares at it and using his nose to just slightly trail the bird down to the ground. Then he does a little head nod and turns on his own to the short gun. I work on head swinging all day long but honestly, when he does this at a trial, I've noticed he nails those birds. its like he's nodding, got it! If he keeps staring ahead then I've noticed sometimes he has a bigger hunt. Not always, though. I think now I'm just at the point of trusting this little booger butt. He's got it. He is always working hard at following the rules, like he knows the routine. I like it. Very fluid. 

The trial was on a Friday but because it was so indecisive the judges had to keep calling back a ton of dogs which made the trial run into the next day. I wasn't sure if Proof would be even more amped a second day but surprisingly he was really just fine. But what was interesting is he pouted after we were done. I figured out he thought there would be more birds. Anyone that doesn't think a dog can count hasn't trained with these dogs. 

So this week I would like to try to work on holding lines along a hill, proof seems a bit lazy on that lately. Also, head swinging like always and blinds in the beginning of the week, no blinds at the end of the week, only marking. Gonna go down and train with Anney and run her club's derby Friday. I'm sure it is going to be so much fun, I always have a good time with her!


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

had a great time in FL with Anney! training and margaritas, baby!!! Two things that Proof has gotten sloppy on, holding angles on slopes and against the water currents. Worked on that. Worked on water, big swim and cheating and a drip line mark all of which ended up being in the derby. Ran the derby on Friday. Such a weird, uneasy derby for me. The whole day was just weird. First series was unbelievably odd. We ran second and that was terrible, that was the earliest we've ever run and it was tough for me. I'm used to watching a few dogs run first. I just didn't know what to expect. IN the first, Proof didn't mark the flyer! The flyer! He had two big dog trucks passing behind the flyer just as it went off. His head was looking everywhere for the bird. He took off for the memory bird instead of the flyer go bird, so my fears were confirmed. I dreaded him coming back in knowing he didn't mark it. But he came in, he looked at the flyer station and perked his ears and I told him good. I don't know how, but by the grace of God, I lined him perfectly and he literally stepped on the flyer as he took a line out. The judges said, Boom! In my head I was thinknig OMG did that just happen? And then after that it went down hill in the first. Four dogs got picked up. It was like they just ran straight to the memory bird gunners and just turned and hunted for-EVER behind the gun and four just gave up and went to the flyer. It was nuts, I don't know what it was about this set up but it was unnerving to see so many dogs do so poorly on the memory bird. Anney joked sometimes its better to be lucky then good so I think Proof was lucky that he went to his memory bird first! Second series he nailed the go bird but I don't know if I lined him wrong of he was just committed but he GUT hunted behind the gun on the memory bird. I mean it was the worst hunt he's ever had at a trial. I don't know how in the heck he was called back but I guess it was because he nailed his birds in the first and so many dogs gut hunted their birds in that series. Third series was all about cheating the water. Proof did good on the go bird which was a few feet of water they had to cut but cheated the water on the second pond. Yet they called him back, but I think there were only three or four dogs that didn't cheat one of those birds. Then the fourth series I about died. It was nearly in line guns throwing a flower pot. The long bird requird the dog not to cheat the water and get out on a penisula that held the short gunner then swim across the pond to the mark. Proof HATEs to get out behind the gun, it really messes with him, so I wasn't sure what he'd do. He took the corner of the water and did get out and went on to swim to his mark. It was the only series I walked away feeling good, he did awesome. 
He ended up with a JAM but I was so lucky. We hung on for dear life on this derby and glad to finish it. Ugh, some derbies are fun and some are stressful, this was one of the yuckiest ones I've ever run. But I learned a few things and that is always important. Also, learned that Proof will do what is necessary at a trial when it comes to getting out behind the gun. He could have easily ran around that cheaty corner and then gotten in the water and by pass that gun all together but he didn't. And I had a blast with my friend I don't get to see often.
Anyway, this week I have a few things to work on. Still need to work on those lines on slopes and in water. I still just love my Proofers so much and have so much fun training him.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Shelby, drip line mark?


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

hollyk said:


> Shelby, drip line mark?


GREAT question hollyk!
MoP, can you describe that in 50 words or less?
FTGoldens


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

well, I don't know exactly what you call this time of mark but what I'm referring to is if you look at a tree's drip line. The gunner stands on the edge of the drip line and then throws the bird along the arc of the canopy to the other side of the drip line of the tree. The trees on this particular property are HUGE old oak trees with tons of moss hanging basically all the way to the ground. The bird is hard to see when it trails along the canopy and perhaps the dogs don't like running at such a "wall", I don't know. But these dogs all ran straight at the gunner and then instead of going to the mark that landed on the other side of the tree they pushed off the gun and ran to the open area of grass behind the gunner. It was just weird. 
Perhaps FTgoldens can explain why young dogs would do this????


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Got it, thanks! 
Funny I think some terms are regional. I have never heard gut hunted before, I think we would say gorilla hunt.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Holly I second the gorilla hunt. 

Hope everyone is having a wonderful fall/winter. Riot is doing well. His whistle sits are becoming very crisp. It's just getting him to sit when he gets very far away. I think every dog has that issue with a young dog. His marking is nice. He just turned 1year old a few days ago. We've been doing walk ups. I'm always shocked when that when we are walking to the line and that shot goes off and the bird flies through the air, and his butt hits the ground without me saying anything at all. What a nice puppy! We've also been working on triples. Like when we moved to doubles, his memory needed a little help on that middle mark. He does a typical outside-outside-inside pick up. Now I need to be able to send him to whichever mark I want him to go to. He's at a really fun age right now. This weekend we start back in field classes for 2 months. 

It's been so nice to train Riot. After beating my head against a wall with Lucy. It's so nice to have a dog that puts a smile on your face when you are done training. Riot is that dog you have all kinds of ideas for what you want to do next. 

I'm also getting ready to start entering Riot in obedience. Next trial is in March. There are too few trials in Alaska!


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