# From a dog's perspective...



## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

I want to throw out another topic. There's been a thread on the agility/obedience forum about a specific obstacle aversion. A dog has suddenly started refusing a piece of equipment. The conversation has evolved away from the original question - to a thread about motivation and reinforcement - which is in and of itself a great topic deserving of a unique thread.

I want to invite the agility/obedience folks to step back and consider why your dog should want to play with you - after all this is our game that they play - not theirs. If you were a dog would you work for you? Are there training friends that (again, if you were a dog) you wouldn't work for? That you would work for? Why? Or why not?

I'll give an example from a group agility practice this weekend (all clues to actual identity have been cleverly disguised):
Handler A taught Puppy A to jump into his arms - in preparation for ending an agility run. Puppy A is now a 2 year old still green agility dog. Puppy A is a sporting breed that tends to get sniffy (leaves handler and goes of hunting or looking for crumbs on the training floor) when Handler A gets serious with her. Handler A recently MACH'ed another dog and since has become very serious in their training with the green dog - Puppy A. So two things have happened, when puppy A gets sniffy because Handler A gets too serious (and no fun to play with), Handler A goes and picks up Puppy A and scolds Puppy A for being naughty (sniffing). Handler A walks over to the obstacle that Puppy A refused (or sidetracked on) puts Puppy A down and expects Puppy A to snap out of it and play the game. Then after a couple of these "pick up, scold and put down", Puppy A gets into the game for a couple of obstacles then as a reward puppy A is invited to jump into handler A's arms. And it goes without saying that Puppy A is not a golden - I don't know anyone teaching their goldens to jump up and be "caught" (smirk).

What have we accomplished here? What effect does the invitation to jump up and be held have on Puppy A? Do you think these corrections are fair? What might be more reinforcing for the dog when Puppy A tunes into her handler? If you were a young sporting breed dog would you work for Handler A? If Handler A was your student how would you help them solve this problem (alternatively these problems)?

The answers really don't matter so much as the conversation I hope this provokes...So in the words of "The Church Lady"....Discuss.

Erica


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

In the words of Ray Hunt, "Make the right thing easy." 

I kinda see a conflict of jumping in the arms as a 'reward' when getting picked up is a punishment. But then, I guess it could all depend on the demeanor of Handler A and Puppy A. 

I think you definitely put yourself in a pickle with agility if you push too hard. On the one hand, your dog blew you off and if you ignore it, it teaches him he can get away with it. On the other hand, if your dog is not ready it is your fault and you are setting him up for failure and making it not fun.... 

Again, make the right thing easy. Work in increments and don't put too much pressure. A part of building motivation is leaving the dog wanting more--ending before the dog is ready to end.


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

My hubby and I were talking about this ...there's a girl who had a dog (sporting breed, not a golden) at my agility club. The dog shook the whole time, wouldn't come out from under the table, wouldn't jump, wouldn't come, etc. 

Trainer put an electric collar on it, had her use it consistently for 6 weeks. Dog was sooo changed at the end of it. Seems to love agility, the club, people, etc. I think the dog that wouldn't come or stop shaking is now working on its OAJ. 

It's not something I would do in an agility setting...but it really seemed to work for that dog...It was interesting.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

gabbys mom said:


> My hubby and I were talking about this ...there's a girl who had a dog (sporting breed, not a golden) at my agility club. The dog shook the whole time, wouldn't come out from under the table, wouldn't jump, wouldn't come, etc.
> 
> Trainer put an electric collar on it, had her use it consistently for 6 weeks. Dog was sooo changed at the end of it. Seems to love agility, the club, people, etc. I think the dog that wouldn't come or stop shaking is now working on its OAJ.
> 
> It's not something I would do in an agility setting...but it really seemed to work for that dog...It was interesting.


It depends - an ecollar is certainly an aversion. If the dog was stressed about the situation the ecollar added compulsion which is the anti-operant conditioning. If the compulsion was not followed up with positive reinforcement the behavior will fall apart. The dog will eventually figure out that there isn't compulsion (shock collar) in a trial setting. The thing with compulsion-only training in any venue is that the dog will at some point learn when the behavior is optional and will revert to what he knows best - and that may very well be fear and insecurity. Does this person still use the collar in training? Is the dog continuing to receive collar corrections in training?

Here's my take on the situation - I personally don't want dog sports enough to use physical adversives in training. That is not to say that I don't "correct" (in the sense of fixing) a problem when it pops up - but since I can't take compulsion into the ring with me, why would I base my training methods on something that will eventually bite me in the butt? Sure, you can't take food into the ring either - but it's far easier to fade food over time as the actions and obstacles become part of a dog's reinforcement history. Reward the straight fronts and you'll see more straight fronts. The other part of this is the dog's understanding - it might be faster to train a dog not to think about the problem - but you have a more solid performance if you let them make mistakes and fix them as the dog's understanding of the task becomes more complete. 

Erica


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## hawtee (Nov 1, 2006)

Good one lol..ok I am the puppy..
Alright I get to jump in your arms and it's a good time, kissy face you but me down and tell me to jump, say what nope this smells good over here, you pick me up alright kissy face, rut row, your mad at me, why? You but me back down, in front of the jump..nope this is more fun smelling the ground, you pick me up again and scold me, I am not having fun!!! You but me down and ok I will do this jump thing. and you let me jump into your arms, do I want to do this? Are you going to scold me again?.I look over at another pup and they have a frisbee/treats and I would rather be there and get rewarded lol..see ya..

So I guess with me being the pup if you want me to do something for you, you as my owner have to be more exciting and rewarding than the others, if not I will go find something else to do...
ok couldn't help it I had to the pups outlook lol.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

hawtee said:


> Good one lol..ok I am the puppy..
> Alright I get to jump in your arms and it's a good time, kissy face you but me down and tell me to jump, say what nope this smells good over here, you pick me up alright kissy face, rut row, your mad at me, why? You but me back down, in front of the jump..nope this is more fun smelling the ground, you pick me up again and scold me, I am not having fun!!! You but me down and ok I will do this jump thing. and you let me jump into your arms, do I want to do this? Are you going to scold me again?.I look over at another pup and they have a frisbee/treats and I would rather be there and get rewarded lol..see ya..
> 
> So I guess with me being the pup if you want me to do something for you, you as my owner have to be more exciting and rewarding than the others, if not I will go find something else to do...
> ok couldn't help it I had to the pups outlook lol.


Love this take on the pup's perspective.

I trained Finn (7 years) and Tally(2 years) very differently. Finn was trained using some light compulsion - collar pops, and Tally was trained using only positive methods- clicker and only very recently a no reward maker for higher level obedience just for feedback. The difference between the dogs at work in obedience is the difference between duty and joy. 

From Tally's perspective, agility and obedience is a special, fun time full of games starring himself and fantastical treats/rewards like chicken and steak, lol; he has the spotlight, gets rewarded, and knows how to please and succeed. I trust Tally, his work ethic and his motivation, so if he blows something, I know it is my fault and we back up a step to where he was successful and start over/differently. He is consistently high scoring, and he is bomb proof in competition- all the mistakes that cosy us points are my own. This dog LOVES precision heeling, and shows it from his shining eyes giving 100 percent attention to his happy tail. He has stylish go outs, exuberant jumps, is equally good verbal/ hand signal, and is very accurate&careful with articles. People love to say I couldnt get rid of Tally if I try- on or off leash, he is focused. 

Finn, on the other hand, is a joyful character off leash on hikes and rambles, in social setting like teaching English class or visiting third grade. His out-and-about manners are awesome- great recall etc. But, put a leash on Finn for the obedience ring and he really droops. He does what's asked, but the minute it's over is when he gets waggy and happy again. He is reluctant, and consequently I feel terrible asking him to heel on or off leash in a formal setting. His body langauge just says, "I have to do this but I hate it". Tally loves it, Finn dreads it. When I trained Joplin, Raleigh, Acadia , and Finn, the Monks of New Skete ethioc was all I knew, and all the good trainers shared that philosophy, I never was harsh with any golden, but just a few light collar pops for a dog otherwise having harmony with his humans was enough to convince Finn that formal obedience is no fun.


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

I do think this is an interesting discussion.

I follow a Terri Arnold/Connie Cleveland school of thought as far obedience training goes. I don't think leash pops are the tool of the devil. I think any correction (verbal or physical) should be taught to the dog, so it can figure out how to end it and how to avoid it. It gives the dog control of the correction and that can be empowering. My girl likes to work, had her CDX by two, and was working on utility stuff pre-hip surgery stuff. 

However, we also incoporated a lot of play training in- having been to a couple of Jane Jackson seminars  Retrieves with go-outs, bouncy games, lots of touching/blowing, stuff that gets her crazy/barking at me/pinging off the walls to do more. And she's a chow hound (what retriever isn't?) - so we use a fair bit of food. 

Ozzie is still in the baby learning stage. With him, I'm trying to reward/then up the criteria. He doesn't melt/quit/decide things aren't fun though, if he's told he's wrong/corrected.


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## hawtee (Nov 1, 2006)

You know they say with your first dog if there is a mistake to be made YOU will make it, so very true!
Casey, my first agility/obedience dog, I did everything wrong and expected to much. I completely shut him down by how I "trained" him, if you want to call it that. Here was a completely wonderful dog who would run excellent courses in training but the minute we went to our first trial I was expecting way to much and it showed in how I reacted when things went bad..I was blaming him, he knew what to do..enter stupid handler..would I work for me, no way. Since then I have learned am still learning (forever)/been taught and am teaching with such positive training now. Poor Casey, what I put him through.He would work for anybody but Mom.

Lilli will work her tail off to please me but with very high rewards and I never let her forget how wonderful she is even when things go wrong, afterall it is my fault and not that of my pup. She will work for anyone because we have made it fun, exciting and very rewarding. On course when things go wrong it is now "Boy Mommy was stupid, wsn't she!"
Ah how I have grown lol...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Interesting thread, it requires a lot of thought but I'm going to answer sort of stream-of-consciousness.
My dog has 2 reasons for wanting to work for me, but to me, the main one is, because I ASKED HIM TO. 
Wow. What a thought. He respects me, so he does what I ask him to. I think this is still a basic part of dog (and kid) training. Maybe that makes me old school, but it's how I think.
The other reason, of course, is that I try to make it as fun for him as I can, and most of the time I'm able to. But once in a while, I have to fall back on "because I said so" in a few situations. I don't particularly physically correct him, but a collar pop every so often for not paying attention isn't out of line, IMO. I've never ear pinched or force broken him, nor will I. A stern tone of voice is all it takes to remind him that I TOLD him to do it....but I also firmly believe every dog is different, and what works for Tito doesn't necessarily work for other dogs. 
I look at it this way.
My dogs have a GREAT life. They have the best food I can buy, free (to them) medical care, tons of toys, soft comfortable beds, other dogs to play with, and attention and affection galore. They go for rides to interesting places, and get plenty of exercise. I do a lot of things simply because they want to do it.
In return, I ask Tito for 1 hour of obedience training 2 or 3 times a week, and 5 minutes in the obedience show ring once in a great while. (the other 2 are retired now, at 11-1/2 and 12-1/2).
I don't think this is a lot to ask. 
Tito doesn't particularly like obedience, and guess what, I don't particularly care!! For my part of it, I am willing to make it as fun as I can. But he's got 2 choices, he can either do it and like it, or he can do it. Those are his only 2 options. 
He loves agility, conformation, and dock diving, so I don't have to motivate him in any way for those sports. Just being there is enough to keep him motivated. Sure, we've had an obstacle issue, minor, with the teeter (so far that's the only one). We've been working through it, but since I don't trial him and probably never will, I'm not worried about it or in any hurry to get him past it.
What motivates my dog in obedience? SUCCESS!!!! That is his single biggest motivator. When he KNOWS he's done it right, he's just so pleased with himself. Sure, he loves food and adores toys, but he's also very motivated by just plain being right. Another interesting concept. Sort of the "montessori method" of dog training, if you will. How does he know he's right? Verbal praise.
When I first started working with the trainer I currently work with, she had me do a very interesting exercise for 2 weeks. NO TREATS, NO TOYS at all when training. None. She said that we as handlers become so reliant on them, we need to work without them. Use only your hands and your voice to motivate your dog for 2 weeks and see what happens.
It was fascinating. I strongly suggest everyone try it for 2 weeks and see what happens. He worked phenominally well for me with nothing but my hands and voice, which surprised me and broke the cycle of relying on treats and/or toys. I don't need them, nor does he. Sure, I still use them, but not nearly as much. And guess what....in the ring....I still have my hands and my voice with me! And let me tell you, it was a HARD two weeks! Treats and toys are so much easier than trying to motivate him just by petting and praising!
Before I get jumped on, I am referring to behaviors which he already has been introduced to, that we are working on solidifying, not new behaviors. For new behaviors, I would still use food and/or toys.
Geez am I rambling....I do want to comment to Jill, though, don't feel bad asking him to heel. It's the least he can do, with all you do for him. My attitude with Tito when he doesn't want to do something is a casual "oh knock it off", and rather than sensing that you feel bad making him do it, he senses that this is just a very matter-of-fact thing that he needs to do. No big deal. 
Ok, enough. I'm sure as I think about my reply I'll realize it didn't make sense in a lot of places, and will try to re-explain it a few times!


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I definitely think as a handler we need to be clear and not confusing. It is supposed to be fun, my dog did not walk up to me and say "oh oh oh I want to learn and show agility" but as we progressed it is something we seem to enjoy to do together. 

I watch trials and I see handlers pick up their dogs and walk off course, or down them after they drop a bar. I am not sure I agree with these corrections. I understand the ending the game concept but in my mind the jury is out whether or not the dog truly "understands". That being said I took my lab off a course recently. She popped the last weave, I tried to get her to go back in, nope, then I tried to get her to restart and she walked away from me. Sure I know it was from the pressure I put on her, so I took her collar and walked off the course. When we go back to our crate Belle ALWAYS gets a jack pot treat. Well needless to say after this run, she was not getting one. I put her in her crate, no treat and I walked away quietly. It was the hardest thing I had ever done with her, but she needed to understand I was disappointed. Let me tell you at the next trial I was all worried about the weaves and there was a tricky entry, not only did she NAIL the entry she flew through the weaves, so perhaps she did understand? Agility is a game my dog and I play together, if either one of us stops having fun, we will move on.

My young golden is playing too, I am not sure she "loves" it as much, but she does like to work. Finding what motivates her is been hard. I think I found it, but she is soft so I can not correct her. I just have to encourage her when she is confused. She doesn't do something because she is bad. Heck I have her entered in her first trial and I completely expect ZOOMIES!!! and I will laugh and enjoy them! Again I want it to be fun so who really cares. 

Belle my lab used to dock jump and it stopped being fun to compete so she stopped jumping. She loves to jump in fun environments but she knows when it is a competition and will not leave the dock. So we don't do it, simple as that. She does not have to do something she does not like.

It is our responsibility as trainers, handlers etc to make sure the dogs heart is into it. If we are only doing it for our selves at their expense, is that right for the dog? Dogs are great animals, they want to please, be sure they get something in exchange.


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

From Casey's POV, obedience/rally/agility are games he plays with mom, but mom is the one who makes up the rules. If he follows the rules, he earns play, treats, praise and lots of time with his favourite person. When he chooses to dis mom when she wants to play the game, the consequence is no treat, no play and sometimes a collar pop, if it is a part of the game that he totally knows and understands. 
I totally agree with Hotelfordogs. Casey has it made in the dog world. I expect that he will focus on me and listen to me when I want/need him to. In dog sports we are a team. I do my best to add my contribution to the team effort, and I hope Casey does his part. Of course, in many cases, one or the other of us has an off day--I forgive my guy and I hope he forgives me. I do try to let him know I love him and he is special, regardless of what the scoresheet says. I am in this to do things with my dog, not to win titles.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

When is comes to aversion to anything I think a dog who understand shaping or has been trained using the Premack Pricipal has a huge advantage. You have a dog who understands there is a reward, WANTS that reward and is willing to work through a problem to earn it.

As far as the sniffy puppy, I don't see the point of the handler scolding the puppy for sniffing. I think sniffing is a sign that the pup is not interested, stressed or bored and I think that is what needs to be addressed first. Make things more fun and interesting! Maybe jumping in the handlers arms is just not rewarding enough.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*My dog has 2 reasons for wanting to work for me, but to me, the main one is, because I ASKED HIM TO. *

See, this is where I think it gets all pretty and poetic to think a dog is working to please his master, but really, the scientific reality is that consequences, not antecedents (cues) drive behavior. IMO, the dog's not so much as working b/c you "asked him" to, but rather, b/c the history associated with working with you has been a good thing. Or for people who train with compulsion, the dog chooses to work b/c history (consequences) have taught him that failure to work is a bad thing.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

You said much better in a few words what I was trying to say in many paragraphs!



Mighty Casey's Mom said:


> From Casey's POV, obedience/rally/agility are games he plays with mom, but mom is the one who makes up the rules. If he follows the rules, he earns play, treats, praise and lots of time with his favourite person. When he chooses to dis mom when she wants to play the game, the consequence is no treat, no play and sometimes a collar pop, if it is a part of the game that he totally knows and understands.
> I totally agree with Hotelfordogs. Casey has it made in the dog world. I expect that he will focus on me and listen to me when I want/need him to. In dog sports we are a team. I do my best to add my contribution to the team effort, and I hope Casey does his part. Of course, in many cases, one or the other of us has an off day--I forgive my guy and I hope he forgives me. I do try to let him know I love him and he is special, regardless of what the scoresheet says. I am in this to do things with my dog, not to win titles.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I don't disagree with this. 
I'm trying to make another point and not sure I'm getting it through, but it's about my dog respecting me. In that sense, yes, he wasn't born respecting me, he has learned to respect me. He has learned that ALL good things come from me (rewards) and that, if he doesn't go with the program, once in a while there will be a consequence depending on what happened and why. Normally the consequence in his case is just withholding a reward.
I'm sorry I'm not verbalizing this very well. The principle I'm trying to get across is that my dog respects and trusts me, so will do what I ask him to do, even if it's something he's never done before. And yes, that respect and trust is learned behavior. 
But I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I think I'm just saying the same thing in a poor manner. Somehow I'm trying to convey that it's a global thing, this respect and trust, that carries over into all aspects of life, training, showing, etc. and he will do something simply because I asked him to do it. But yes, it ultimately pleases him because he has learned that pleasing me is a GOOD thing.



FlyingQuizini said:


> *My dog has 2 reasons for wanting to work for me, but to me, the main one is, because I ASKED HIM TO. *
> 
> See, this is where I think it gets all pretty and poetic to think a dog is working to please his master, but really, the scientific reality is that consequences, not antecedents (cues) drive behavior. IMO, the dog's not so much as working b/c you "asked him" to, but rather, b/c the history associated with working with you has been a good thing. Or for people who train with compulsion, the dog chooses to work b/c history (consequences) have taught him that failure to work is a bad thing.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> I don't disagree with this.
> I'm trying to make another point and not sure I'm getting it through, but it's about my dog respecting me. In that sense, yes, he wasn't born respecting me, he has learned to respect me. He has learned that ALL good things come from me (rewards) and that, if he doesn't go with the program, once in a while there will be a consequence depending on what happened and why. Normally the consequence in his case is just withholding a reward.
> I'm sorry I'm not verbalizing this very well. The principle I'm trying to get across is that my dog respects and trusts me, so will do what I ask him to do, even if it's something he's never done before. And yes, that respect and trust is learned behavior.
> But I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I think I'm just saying the same thing in a poor manner. Somehow I'm trying to convey that it's a global thing, this respect and trust, that carries over into all aspects of life, training, showing, etc. and he will do something simply because I asked him to do it. But yes, it ultimately pleases him because he has learned that pleasing me is a GOOD thing.


OK. I get what you're saying... it's about the relationship you've built with your dog via training and all that comes with it.

I admit, I'm overly sensitive to statements like, "because I asked him to" b/c so often, I encounter new students who want to ride that bandwagon in a totally different way... "He should do it b/c I said so..." etc. They are usually the same students who believe their dogs can be "willful" as well. As a result, I try really hard to steer people away from even using such statements b/c they can, IMO, perpetuate myths of training that make life harder for the dog.

Yes, Quiz works for me b/c we have a solid working relationship. It's my job to maintain that relationship, but it's the relationship (which includes reward history, etc.) that keeps things going.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

And that is EXACTLY what I was trying to say, only you said it better! 



FlyingQuizini said:


> OK. I get what you're saying... it's about the relationship you've built with your dog via training and all that comes with it.
> 
> Yes, Quiz works for me b/c we have a solid working relationship. It's my job to maintain that relationship, but it's the relationship (which includes reward history, etc.) that keeps things going.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> *My dog has 2 reasons for wanting to work for me, but to me, the main one is, because I ASKED HIM TO. *
> 
> See, this is where I think it gets all pretty and poetic to think a dog is working to please his master, but really, the scientific reality is that consequences, not antecedents (cues) drive behavior. IMO, the dog's not so much as working b/c you "asked him" to, but rather, b/c the history associated with working with you has been a good thing. Or for people who train with compulsion, the dog chooses to work b/c history (consequences) have taught him that failure to work is a bad thing.


So, are you meaning that you don't believe in willingness to please?

....

On another note. I think a well-placed correction is good, but it has to be fair for the dog and situation. If your dog is blowing you off sniffing because you are putting too much stress and pressure on him that is different than popping a collar on a dog who knows how to sit, has done it a million times, in a million places, and chooses not to respond.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

GoldenSail said:


> So, are you meaning that you don't believe in willingness to please?
> 
> ....
> 
> On another note. I think a well-placed correction is good, but it has to be fair for the dog and situation. If your dog is blowing you off sniffing because you are putting too much stress and pressure on him that is different than popping a collar on a dog who knows how to sit, has done it a million times, in a million places, and chooses not to respond.


Oh I most definitely believe in willingness to please... but the dog is working to please HIMSELF! Without some sort of consequential history to relate to, the dog has ZERO REASON to attempt to please a member of a completely different species. It's a waste of energy unless there's SOMETHING in it for them. Wasting energy isn't conducive to surviving as a species!

My dogs work to please me b/c they know that keeping me happy makes good things happen for them.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

My dogs are very willing to please me. When I'm happy, they're happy. When I'm happy, I smile and laugh and make neat noises that they like, and get all excited, and they get all excited by that. So yes, they're very willing to please, but they are deriving a fair amount of pleasure from my response. So I guess it's a synergistic thing.

And on the other note, I agree totally. The correction has to be a fair correction, not given in anger. In your example, if I tell my dog to sit, which he has known how to do in pretty much any situation that you can imagine (ok don't get silly here) for 2 years, and he looks right at me and doesn't sit, he needs a gentle reminder that I TOLD YOU TO DO SOMETHING! I personally don't believe in a second command. He knew what I wanted, and chose not to do it. POP on the collar (Tito's is a buckle collar, BTW) just to remind him. 

I'm real big into what Stephanie called the "working relationship", which I called trust and respect.
If I tell (ask) Tito to do something he's never done before, even if he's a bit hesitant, he will do it. He has learned that he can trust me to give him good, reliable commands and that if he follows them, we're going to do just fine. He respects me enough not to do something I tell him not to do. (most of the time, LOL). I don't have to lure him with treats, toys, or even praise in most new situations because he has learned that I can be trusted.
It's very hard to explain, but I'm sure most of you know exactly what I'm talking about.




GoldenSail said:


> So, are you meaning that you don't believe in willingness to please?
> 
> ....
> 
> On another note. I think a well-placed correction is good, but it has to be fair for the dog and situation. If your dog is blowing you off sniffing because you are putting too much stress and pressure on him that is different than popping a collar on a dog who knows how to sit, has done it a million times, in a million places, and chooses not to respond.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Sounds like "Handler A" needs to decide whether or not being held is a reward for her dog. I definitely wouldn't want being held to be associated with a correction or scolding, since I love cuddling little dogs and would work hard to make sure a little puppy wanted to be in my arms. But I also wouldn't expect a dog to do agility just for the opportunity to jump up and be held, since that's not something that most dogs naturally find reinforcing. I know a lot of people who train that behavior at the end of a run (to get clear control of the dog or just to be cute), but that's not THE reward for most dogs.

If I tell my dog to sit, and he looks right at me and doesn't sit, I'm going to look for something wrong with him. Since he was 8 weeks old he's been getting lots of rewards for sitting, it's probably the most solid behavior he has. He has no reason not to sit. If a dog refuses to do something he "knows" you should take it as information, maybe once you started working on more advanced things you've been taking sitting for granted and haven't been reinforcing it as much, something like that. That happens a lot with stopping on the contacts in agility. You start out making a big deal out of every 2-on-2-off, but a year or two later you do a sequence 5 times trying to get some tricky handling right and meanwhile you don't acknowledge your dog's nice dogwalk contact once. Then the dog starts blowing the contacts in the ring, and the handler starts taking them off the course or otherwise correcting it. When really all they had to do was keep acknowledging what their dog did right, even the little things.

Dogs don't have the thought process to understand that they should do obedience or agility because of all the other stuff you do for them. Pretty much all agility dogs have lives that are 500 times better than your average pet dog's life. But they don't connect "it's pretty cool that I don't live on a chain in the yard, so I should go wiggle through plastic sticks."

I find it unethical to cause a dog any sort of pain or discomfort for the sake of a stupid little competition (beyond the necessary disappointment of not getting a reward for an incorrect behavior). It's pretty disgusting when people say they looooove obedience but they think it's necessary to cause a dog pain in order to get a good retrieve or attention heeling or something. It's just a stupid piece of wood and walking around in a little pattern.

I'm not really sure what you're referring to as far as being able to tell Tito to do something he's never done before, since dogs don't understand English (and I'm sure you know that) ... I'm guessing you're referring to things that you can build off of known behaviors. Like Dusty knows "go around" that I originally trained with a PVC pole stuck in the ground, but he'll go around a tree or a car or a chair. He might have hesitated and needed a second cue the first time around the car, but I didn't need to lure him with food or anything.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Tito may have plenty of "reasons" to not sit, but I don't like his reasons. For example, the cute little bitch in heat is standing 10 feet away showing off her bitches britches. To him, this might be a reason to not sit. To me, sorry buster, I said sit. A collar pop is in order. 
I have never, nor will I, ear pinched my dogs. But it does work for a lot of people. As I said, I train with lots of toys and treats while shaping a behavior. We have had a lot of success in obedience without my ever hurting my dog. 
And finally yes, I'm referring for sure to things that build off of known behaviors. Like jumping up on a table at the vet maybe. He's never jumped up on that shiny, scary looking table, but he's jumped up on other tables and if I tell him to jump on the vet's table, he will. Or as you said, going around a tree on a walk, or perhaps retrieving something he's never seen before. I can tell him "mark, take it" and he will head out looking for whatever it is I want him to get, but he's certainly had experience both with marking and with retrieving.




katieanddusty said:


> Sounds like "Handler A" needs to decide whether or not being held is a reward for her dog. I definitely wouldn't want being held to be associated with a correction or scolding, since I love cuddling little dogs and would work hard to make sure a little puppy wanted to be in my arms. But I also wouldn't expect a dog to do agility just for the opportunity to jump up and be held, since that's not something that most dogs naturally find reinforcing. I know a lot of people who train that behavior at the end of a run (to get clear control of the dog or just to be cute), but that's not THE reward for most dogs.
> 
> If I tell my dog to sit, and he looks right at me and doesn't sit, I'm going to look for something wrong with him. Since he was 8 weeks old he's been getting lots of rewards for sitting, it's probably the most solid behavior he has. He has no reason not to sit. If a dog refuses to do something he "knows" you should take it as information, maybe once you started working on more advanced things you've been taking sitting for granted and haven't been reinforcing it as much, something like that. That happens a lot with stopping on the contacts in agility. You start out making a big deal out of every 2-on-2-off, but a year or two later you do a sequence 5 times trying to get some tricky handling right and meanwhile you don't acknowledge your dog's nice dogwalk contact once. Then the dog starts blowing the contacts in the ring, and the handler starts taking them off the course or otherwise correcting it. When really all they had to do was keep acknowledging what their dog did right, even the little things.
> 
> ...


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Tito doesn't particularly like obedience, and guess what, I don't particularly care!! For my part of it, I am willing to make it as fun as I can. But he's got 2 choices, he can either do it and like it, or he can do it. Those are his only 2 options.


I agree with 99% of what you said, but particularly this statement. 

And I have no problem with physical corrections- I force broke Gabby and have no problem with that when done by person qualified to do so, I use an e-collar in our field work, and I use leash pops. I also use lots of play, treats, and praise. 

Physical corrections as unethical? New one for me...


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

This is interesting to me, because I don't ever want my competitiveness to interfere with my dogs' happiness (and I am okay with a free spirited dog).

Based on the original scenario, I can tell you what I, as a person who likes to observe dogs and their interactions with each other and their owners/handlers, read. The dog who was not doing what he/she was supposed to be doing acted like sniffing the ground was way more interesting than listening to the owner/handler. That is what it would appear to be to a lot of people. But if you are versed in calming signals, you would see that the dog realized that he/she was not doing what was expected and that the owner/handler was irate with him/her and so he/she started using calming signals to try to ease the tension.

What many people see as willful disobedience is not even close to what is going through the dog's mind. It's trying to calm you and himself down because he senses that you are angry, though most of the times he has no clue why.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

fostermom said:


> What many people see as willful disobedience is not even close to what is going through the dog's mind. It's trying to calm you and himself down because he senses that you are angry, though most of the times he has no clue why.


Oh, and that knowledge can be such a painful thing sometimes... I'll never forget watching a group of very well known obedience competitors training. One of the dogs kept yawning, and they just couldn't figure out why he was so "tired." :doh:


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

MurphyTeller said:


> And it goes without saying that Puppy A is not a golden - I don't know anyone teaching their goldens to jump up and be "caught" (smirk).


Just started reading this thread. Sorry for being off topic, but Layla jumps in my arms.. lol.  But it's a huge reward for a job well done


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

goldengirls550 said:


> Just started reading this thread. Sorry for being off topic, but Layla jumps in my arms.. lol.  But it's a huge reward for a job well done


My point was not that jumping into arms is inherently an aversive. But you (they) can't have it both ways. If something is an aversive it can't also be used as positive reinforcement...If you whack your dog on the nose with a newspaper when it pees on the carpet you can't whack them on the nose when they've done something right...

Erica

P.S. - you have a golden jumping into your arms to carry out of the ring? Good golly - mine would knock me on my arse.


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

Very interesting topic and one I've given a lot of consideration too without getting any good answers. I'm trialing my novice a dog, who I believe loves agility. He gets tons of compliments from his instructors about his enthusiasm and it's not uncommon for people to tell me how happy he is when we come out of the ring. But other times he seems incredibly worried at trials and slows down. We've yet to Q in Exc Std because anytime we're clean, he's (we're) over time. We once missed a Q by 0.01 seconds!

The most important thing for me is that my dogs are having fun. But a Q once in a while would be nice too.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

MurphyTeller said:


> My point was not that jumping into arms is inherently an aversive. But you (they) can't have it both ways. If something is an aversive it can't also be used as positive reinforcement...If you whack your dog on the nose with a newspaper when it pees on the carpet you can't whack them on the nose when they've done something right...
> 
> Erica


Personally, I think that is only partially true and really depends on the case. I once had someone tell me that returning to your dog that broke and fixing him was 'rewarding' to the dog because he got to be with you. Thankfully, I've learned since then from a very good trainer. And depending on how it is carried out--a return can be a reward or it can be a punishment. 

I think a lot of it has to do with your demeanor and your relationship. I can see the conflict with the jumping in arms if it is done without much emotion, HOWEVER, is there not a difference to the dog when you grab him gruffly, frown, and use a lower firm tone then when you are jumping around, using a high-pitched voice, petting, and generally getting the dog riled up? You could use those differences when getting a dog in your arms, and dogs /can/ tell. Especially if they know you and know when you are mad and when you are happy and that you mean it!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

GoldenSail said:


> Personally, I think that is only partially true and really depends on the case. I once had someone tell me that returning to your dog that broke and fixing him was 'rewarding' to the dog because he got to be with you. Thankfully, I've learned since then from a very good trainer. And depending on how it is carried out--a return can be a reward or it can be a punishment.


Oh... see, I DO think that for an insecure dog, having the handler come back and reset the dog on a stay-break IS a reward! I personally opt to have someone ELSE go back and reset the dog so that my dogs learn STAYING is what brings ME back, not getting up!

Now, I suppose if you went in and were, in fact, punishng in how you went about fixing the dog, then it's different, but I don't like to really "punish" a break... rather, I'm simply fixing an error and continuing on.

JMO!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Now, I suppose if you went in and were, in fact, punishng in how you went about fixing the dog, then it's different, but I don't like to really "punish" a break... rather, I'm simply fixing an error and continuing on.
> 
> JMO!



Oh how I agree -- man I learned this the hard way with my first golden (15 yrs ago!) -- how to make a dog paranoid about group stays through the use of punishment! ACCCKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!! BAD BAD
I have never given any more of a "correction" to Fisher for breaking a stay, than putting him back in the same spot with zero emotion and saying "SIT" again. I don't even want to go there with him. It is SO easy to create a BAD spot for the dog in the group line up of dogs, and trying to regain that confidence is not easy. I'd rather give up on Open than try to fix a stay problem with an insecure dog. Yikes.
Can you tell my first dog was a nightmare? 

Speaking of punishments and rewards being different -- at the Celeste Meade seminar a few weeks ago -- which I am still trying to digest -- she had a lot to say about using whatever you reward with (food, toy, whatever) as your biggest distraction. As in, how can you proof with something if the dog values it less than his reward, and how can you expect to win over the distraction if it's more rewarding than his reward for doing it right. Pretty interesting.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*I'd rather give up on Open than try to fix a stay problem with an insecure dog. Yikes.*

GAK. I'm going down that road right now. All of a sudden, Quiz is not liking me being out of sight. He's a rock solid dog in the ring when we're together, but those darn groups are getting the better of him. Mama's boy!

I'm determined to fix it though, 'cuz he's rockin' the ringwork with consistent 195s and higher each time we've shown. Granted, that's only been five times in Open. He pulled it off for groups 2 of the 5 times for high-scoring Qs. The other 3 times were high scores that would've been! *sigh*


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> I have never given any more of a "correction" to Fisher for breaking a stay, than putting him back in the same spot with zero emotion and saying "SIT" again.


I wouldn't either, but being fixed is not rewarding just because I am coming back. She gets nothing out of it other than being plopped back into position and me leaving again. No pets, no treats, no happy voice--just business. Now, when I return and she didn't break, it is a party!



> Oh... see, I DO think that for an insecure dog, having the handler come back and reset the dog on a stay-break IS a reward! I personally opt to have someone ELSE go back and reset the dog so that my dogs learn STAYING is what brings ME back, not getting up!


Yeah, I would agree with that.  My point in being was just to illustrate that a return is not always rewarding. But granted, depending on the dog and the manner of the return...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> *I'd rather give up on Open than try to fix a stay problem with an insecure dog. Yikes.*
> 
> GAK. I'm going down that road right now. All of a sudden, Quiz is not liking me being out of sight. He's a rock solid dog in the ring when we're together, but those darn groups are getting the better of him. Mama's boy!
> 
> I'm determined to fix it though, 'cuz he's rockin' the ringwork with consistent 195s and higher each time we've shown. Granted, that's only been five times in Open. He pulled it off for groups 2 of the 5 times for high-scoring Qs. The other 3 times were high scores that would've been! *sigh*



Oh I feel for you. I wish for Open (at least Open B) they would require you to get your CDX with the groups then from then on out you are absolved of them. Like, we proved we could do it so let us move on, gimme a card or something with a free pass! What a bore and I think EVERY dog goes through something with the stay. 
I so took Fisher for granted, I could count on one hand the number of times he broke a stay in the ring, up until this spring! ha ha He suddenly discovered that you can lay down on the sit, not only is it much more comfortable but nothing really happens (and then they make you lay down and nap for 5 minutes after that so why not go ahead and start the session early). 
I was terrified he finally wised up to all of this -- then I went and trained at two local obedience run throughs, which have perfect ring like settings. Well he laid down multiple times during practice, with me coming in and sitting him back up again -- so clearly, he's not ring wise! I finally figured out that since he had NEVER done this before, it had never been an issue and I'd never trained AGAINST it, so the dog had no idea there was anything wrong with this. 
So I did several training sessions of me leaving, walking back in 20 seconds later, giving a treat, leaving again, etc, etc, figuring reinforcing the SIT with something good was much much better than trying to "catch" him laying down and correcting it. Because all that brings is stress to the exercise and that's the LAST thing I want. I was entered in three more trials after all this came to a head, so I just pulled from open in those rather than having him practice this laying down stuff in the ring. And of course he qualified in Utility B all three trials, we would be up to 7 UDX legs (up until then he had qualified in Open B like 12 times in a row, pretty confident on all the open exercises).
Anyhoo -- moral of the story -- everyone goes through it in some way or another!!!!
I hope to get back in the obedience ring later this year, if this persists then I will say screw it and just enter utility and see how many OTCH points I can rack up there. Fisher already has an open B win so I technically do not need to enter open. Not worth the fight!


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