# Winding it question.



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Well, it depends. 

To say a dog "marked" a bird it must first proceed to the area of fall (AOF). If he broke off down wind prior to reaching the AOF, it would be called going on a "hunt em up" and result in a poor marking score. 

So the question is did he go to the area of fall before breaking down into hunt mode?


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Well that is a very good question and I would love to know that too. I have talked to so many people at these test about " what is the area of the fall?" and I have gotten as many answers as I have asked people. I dont know what the area of the fall is. I have seen some people leave their dogs to work a huge area of over 30ft to others saying it is less than 10ft area. BaWaaJige is usually in a 10-15ft area when he starts hunting when he doesnt mark it that well. Usually he is right on with his marks but I have noticed on windy days he goes off the line if the wind is pushing the scent towards him.

Yesterday I would say that yes he was in the area of the fall about 5-10ft from the bird. The way the wind was blowing it was pushing the scent down the hill. 

I would have liked to have tried the same set up going the other way on the hill but it was all dug up back there as they are removing rocks from the field. I felt it was too dangerous to run him with so many holes.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I would concur with the "it depends" statement, made by Swampy!

The answer is also going to vary, depending on venue--because you are talking HRC, judging is done differently than in AKC/CKC where dogs are assigned numberical scores in four categories of evaluation. As Swampy mentioned, in an AKC or CKC test, if he broke down and hunted well out of the AOF, then he would receive a lower score in marking. If he was distracted by another factor ain the field an allowed it to draw him off the mark, then the score in perserverance would also be lower, etc.

HRC does not use this system. Instead the dog's work is graded as pss/marginal/fail on the basis of the entire performance, with checks that required elements are present. One of the best things you can do if you are running HRC, is to attend a judges seminar--they are open to participants as well, and it will give you significant insight into how HRC judges have been trained to carry out their duties. http://www.huntingretrieverclub.org/Judges Folder/Seminar Schedule.pdf

I am an AKC/CKC judge, so I know how I would judge it in those venues if the dog started quartering up to the mark before it reached the AOF. Marking would be penalized, and if they broke down in cover and drag-back, perserverance. From the HRC I have run, I would say that there is more value placed on a dog using its nose intelligently. That said however, if the dog is not hunting the AOF, but just running the field until they wind the bird, that is not going to fly with most of the HRC judges I know either.

Here is a link to the HRC judges sheet for a land series http://www.huntingretrieverclub.org/Forms/Judges Sheet Land.pdf

Here is the AKC form for comparison (mkost judges will have boxes for diagramming the dog's work below the score chart):
http://classic.akc.org/pdfs/events/hunting_tests/retriever_ht_evaluation_form.pdf

I am going to attach a couple of pictures. The first shows a Senior test I ran with one of my dogs. The pink circles give an idea of what the AOF could be considered. The second has the work of three hypothetical dogs on it. The Purple dog does an excellent job. The blue dog also does good work--it reaches the AOF and then puts up an intelligent hunt, using its nose. The lime dog would be in trouble. It broke down and started hunting before the AOF even on the go-bird, and on the memory bird, likely only recovered the bird because of a "wind-save". The line the dog took indicated very poor marking of that bird.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

General V said:


> Well that is a very good question and I would love to know that too. I have talked to so many people at these test about " what is the area of the fall?" and I have gotten as many answers as I have asked people. I dont know what the area of the fall is. I have seen some people leave their dogs to work a huge area of over 30ft to others saying it is less than 10ft area. BaWaaJige is usually in a 10-15ft area when he starts hunting when he doesnt mark it that well. Usually he is right on with his marks but I have noticed on windy days he goes off the line if the wind is pushing the scent towards him.
> 
> Yesterday I would say that yes he was in the area of the fall about 5-10ft from the bird. The way the wind was blowing it was pushing the scent down the hill.
> 
> I would have liked to have tried the same set up going the other way on the hill but it was all dug up back there as they are removing rocks from the field. I felt it was too dangerous to run him with so many holes.


 
The size of the AOF will vary depending on whether the marks are being run as singles, doubles, triples or quads ( the more memory required, generally the more generous the AOF), length of marks, and terrain conditions. It is not an absolute thing. Starting to hunt within a 3-5 of yards of the bird would be considered acceptable by most judges. Breaking down and starting to hunt 20 yards out on a short mark could leave you in trouble.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Thank you that was very helpful. Jige was only about 10ft( less than 4yrds) off of his mark. So I think we were still good. I will look into those semiars it think it would be very helpful. 

I will see if I can get a video of him doing this as it wasnt the first time he winded a bird.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

For a young dog who has those tendancies, I would not be setting up marks where the line is downwind of the mark at this time. I know the logistics of the field dictated what you set up this time, but it is something you need to take into consideration when setting up marks so that he has to drive into the AOF before his nose can be of help to him.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GREAT POST SHELLY! You rock! 
During his seminar Mike Lardy impressed upon us that a dog who makes a beeline to the bird and stomps on it with no hunting gets an A+. A dog who makes a beeline to the immediate AOF and puts up a 5 minute hunt, never leaving the AOF, persevering and never giving up until he finds the bird -- that dog gets an A. 
But notice there's a difference -- a dog who stays in the AOF relentlessly until he finds it is great, one who runs all over hell's half acre to stumble on the bird, not good.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

The one thing I have been encouraged to do is, define my AOF before I run the mark. That way I have already decided when I'm going to start handling or if the dog doesn't handle when to give it help on the mark. 

Shelly, you always have such thoughtful posts. Thanks.

I have to say watching a dog work a AOF is pretty amazing. I have watched Winter get snapped 90 degrees like she was on a piviot by her nose. Wouldn't it be cool to have Scent-O-Vision glasses? I'm sure they would help me understand and take into consideration, wind, old falls and a whole bunch of things I struggle with.


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