# I have a friend looking for a Female Golden Pup....



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Wow, it's not the greatest time of year for getting puppies, but I wish her the best. She's looking for a purebred? Not interested in rescuing?


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

I have puppies but I am no reputable breeder. LOL I am also all the way in Indiana.Good luck to her in her search


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Nothing wrong with getting one now if you can handle it... X mas is no big deal here at my house... dogs come first any time of year


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Sorry, was just going by what my vet said. Why do I listen...:uhoh: As as said, I hope she finds a pup. Shadow was born on December 3...that should speak volumes.


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## kwikrnu (Dec 2, 2007)

We just got a puppy for Christmas. Most _reputable_ (whatever that means)breeders I spoke with said Christmas puppy is a bad thing. I think a lot of _reputable_ breeder requirements are silly anyways.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Don't be sorry Kimm!!!  I just think it depends on the home... I think a puppy at Christmas or JUST as a gift can be a true disaster...


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I think for the typical family with small children, a puppy as a Christmas gift can be a disaster. I have been lucky enough never to have a litter ready to go home at Christmas time, although I have skipped breedings where the timing for the pups to go home would have been too close to Christmas. Families are often very busy and in an uproar around Christmas, and especially Christmas Eve and Day.

OTOH, I have had puppies go home around Thanksgiving and that worked out great. A couple of puppies from my litter due 12/20 will be going as Christmas gifts even though they won't be going home until the end of February or so. The parents know the circumstances, and we are taking pictures of Mom and Dad, and of course the pups once they arrive.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> We just got a puppy for Christmas. Most _reputable_ (whatever that means)breeders I spoke with said Christmas puppy is a bad thing. I think a lot of _reputable_ breeder requirements are silly anyways.


After reading some of your posts, which definately rubbed me wrong, (but I chose to keep quiet) I now feel compelled to say that you really haven't done too much to ingratiate yourself on this Forum with reputable breeders! :gotme:

Reputable breeders do not like puppies to go into their new homes at Christmas time because of the added stress - both on the puppy AND the owners. While it seems like a wonderful thing to find a puppy under the tree, it truly is not ideal. The adjustment to a new home should be an easy one - and most households are in a bustle over the holidays - even the most well socialized puppy can be affected by the stress, not to mention the temptation of gifts and decorations all over the house, tinsel on trees, and foods and candies that are often placed unwittingly within their grasp. I have had litters at Christmas time, ONLY because that was how the bitch cycled and the timing of the breeding. I have never produced a litter with the intent for them to be Christmas presents. The wonderful families who purchased those puppies were told upfront that they would not be taking them home until AFTER the holiday, and ultimately, every last one of them was happy that they did NOT have a new puppy to worry about during that time. I did do nice photo books for them so that they could share pics with their family and friends, and have something to look forward to.

If you actually have the best interest of the dogs in mind, you most assuredly would not find the requirements of reputable breeders to be "silly". You aren't quicker (Kwik er n u) than me, or those breeders who have put much time and thought into the production of their puppies, and ONLY have the safety and well being of them at heart, if you think that is "silly".

Flame away...


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

I just noticed, there was an ad for golden retriever puppies at the top of the home page. 

Home


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Looks like they have some English Creams available.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

They have five litters available...


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Just in time for Christmas.


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## Judi (Feb 26, 2007)

Kimm said:


> Sorry, was just going by what my vet said. Why do I listen...:uhoh: As as said, I hope she finds a pup. Shadow was born on December 3...that should speak volumes.


Chloe was born on December 6th.


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

I am so sorry if this thread has brought up any bad feelings or ill will towards people! Not my intention at all...

Let me start this over....
My friend is the Breeder I got Alina 1 of my Goldens from 3 yrs ago. She does not breed anymore, her girl is retired, spayed. They want a pup for themselves, no kids at home, older couple, to add to thier lives. So with that said, I was only hoping to see if any had any or knew of anyone that had any??

PLEASE do not get upset at anyone for anything!!!


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

I would seriously question the ethics of a Breeder never mind breeders of those types are not desverving of the capital "B". They are certainly not breeding to better the breed those breeders (note my b LOL) breed to supplement their income - its therfore a buisness. Where as Pointgold, Tahnee, Arcane and I breed as a hobby and put the utmost care, effort, caution and love into our programs. It is truley a labour of love and the wellbeing of our dogs come 1st. The last thing we would do is place a puppy at X-mas time those choices are 99% of the time not thought out and made in the moment where they could very well be chucked out like old wrapping paper when the novelty wears off. A puppy is a big personal desicion and other people are not capable of making that choice for others. So if you say your Golden came from a reputable Breeder but it was an X-mas gift most people and good Breeders would probably laugh in your face. 

The above was not for you KerriBear. I don't think that is a good idea I would tell your friend to wait even 1 month and she will have more success at finding the perfect pup from a repuatable Breeder. Good luck!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

KerriBear, my frustration was NOT directed at you, or your friend. Only an attempt to explain why your friend might have a difficult time finding a puppy at Christmas from a reputable breeder. And I do take offense at comments from people like kwikernu who think that those with the best interest of the dogs in mind are "silly".

I hope that your friend finds the perfect dog.


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## 3SweetGoldens (Feb 28, 2007)

*I just have to comment!*

I just want to add, that I as well, have been asked if one of Lexi's puppies could be taken home for Christmas, and I told them NO! They will be 8 weeks on Jan. 1st, and not only do they need to be with Lexi the first "complete" 8 weeks to learn all the things they need to know from Mom, like PointGold said, it is a TERRIBLE time of year to place a puppy. Too much excitement, especially if there are children in the home. So many new adjustments for the puppy and the new owners as well. So far, I have not sold to people with children. Not to say that I wouldn't, but it takes much more consideration about the family. I have to much invested in this litter with Lexi, planning for three years, matching pedigrees for the best possible match of many champion studs, and most important, LOVING these precious babies I have nurtured for the last 5 weeks.


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## kwikrnu (Dec 2, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> After reading some of your posts, which definately rubbed me wrong, (but I chose to keep quiet) I now feel compelled to say that you really haven't done too much to ingratiate yourself on this Forum with reputable breeders! :gotme:
> 
> Reputable breeders do not like puppies to go into their new homes at Christmas time because of the added stress - both on the puppy AND the owners. While it seems like a wonderful thing to find a puppy under the tree, it truly is not ideal. The adjustment to a new home should be an easy one - and most households are in a bustle over the holidays - even the most well socialized puppy can be affected by the stress, not to mention the temptation of gifts and decorations all over the house, tinsel on trees, and foods and candies that are often placed unwittingly within their grasp. I have had litters at Christmas time, ONLY because that was how the bitch cycled and the timing of the breeding. I have never produced a litter with the intent for them to be Christmas presents. The wonderful families who purchased those puppies were told upfront that they would not be taking them home until AFTER the holiday, and ultimately, every last one of them was happy that they did NOT have a new puppy to worry about during that time. I did do nice photo books for them so that they could share pics with their family and friends, and have something to look forward to.
> 
> ...


Our new puppy popped out of a wrapped box from under our Christmas tree into the arms my two young daughters. I'm of the opinion that most breeders have silly requirements of course not all are bad, but the Christmas puppy rule rubs me the wrong way. Hustle and bustle can happen at any time. Vacations happen year round. There is crap around the house at anytime that young puppies can eat or chew on. I think most of these _serious hobby_ breeders think they are gods gift to the dog world. If my female pup has a good temperment, and is good on her clearances I will breed her with a similar dog and place the puppies when they are 8 weeks or older and if that happens to be at Christmas time all the better.:wave:


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Come on folks, let's not fight over Christmas. Let's fight about something important. The Steelers are playing the Pats!


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Whats the pedigree on your bitch???


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Agreed Vern.... or how about Coke Vs Pepsi


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> *Our new puppy popped out of a wrapped box from under our Christmas tree into the arms my two young daughters*. I'm of the opinion that most breeders have silly requirements of course not all are bad, but the Christmas puppy rule rubs me the wrong way. Hustle and bustle can happen at any time. Vacations happen year round. There is crap around the house at anytime that young puppies can eat or chew on. I think most of these _serious hobby_ breeders think they are gods gift to the dog world. If my female pup has a good temperment, and is good on her clearances I will breed her with a similar dog and place the puppies when they are 8 weeks or older and if that happens to be at Christmas time all the better.:wave:


 
you guys must have celebrated christmas early....? lol it sort of seems like you are trying to be controversial and start arguments between yourself and the breeders on this forum.. i mean, whatever, power to you. atleast it makes for interesting reading. but the fact remains that a household, especially one with children, is definitely more hustle and bustle than any other time of year, and with a brand new puppy, the first few weeks are prime training and bonding time that just wont happen with all the goings-on of the holidays.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

missmarstar said:


> lol it sort of seems like you are trying to be controversial and start arguments between yourself and the breeders on this forum.. i mean, .


Great point missmarstar. I though I was the only one seeing that


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

personally i dont know why ANYONE would want a brand new puppy in the wintertime... with them needing to go outside a million times a day.. its coooooolllllddddd LOL we got Sam in July and it was perfect.. i didn't mind spending all day outside with him 

but then again, i'm just a thin-skinned southern californian lol


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Well I'd ONLY want a puppy in winter where I live- bc it's too hot to stand outside here any other time of year... but up North I'd totally agree!!


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

missmarstar said:


> personally i dont know why ANYONE would want a brand new puppy in the wintertime... with them needing to go outside a million times a day.. its coooooolllllddddd LOL we got Sam in July and it was perfect.. i didn't mind spending all day outside with him
> 
> but then again, i'm just a thin-skinned southern californian lol


I feel sorry for you guys in Southern California. You don't know what you are missing.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> Our new puppy popped out of a wrapped box from under our Christmas tree into the arms my two young daughters. I'm of the opinion that most breeders have silly requirements of course not all are bad, but the Christmas puppy rule rubs me the wrong way. Hustle and bustle can happen at any time. Vacations happen year round. There is crap around the house at anytime that young puppies can eat or chew on. I think most of these _serious hobby_ breeders think they are gods gift to the dog world. If my female pup has a good temperment, and is good on her clearances I will breed her with a similar dog and place the puppies when they are 8 weeks or older and if that happens to be at Christmas time all the better.:wave:


Great. Just great. Your statement that "_serious hobby breeders think that they are gods gift to the dog world" _is so far from the truth as to be ludicrous, not even just insulting and founded in ignorance. No, "kwikernu", we believe that the puppies we produce are God's gift to the dog world, because unlike irresponsible BYB's and millers, we take the time to research pedigrees and health clearances for GENERATIONS. We invest the time and many dollars to compete with our dogs in different venues so that we may have other valued opinions as to the abilities and qualities of our dogs. We consider not only the temperaments of our own dogs, but those of the generations behind them. We do this in hopes of maintaining the fine qualities that make a Golden what it is supposed to be, and with the intent of improving whatever we can, while at the same time providing healthy, beautiful, long-lived companions for individuals and families who desire those same qualities. We do not take that honor lightly. We don't make money at it. We don't ridicule or demean those with that same devotion. We attempt to help educate those who wish to do the same thing, and yes, at the same time discourage those who think that just because they have a purebred dog that they should breed it. We ourselves know that not every dog we have, or have produced, should be reproduced. And your mindset is not only based on a complete lack of understanding of what a reputable breeder is, but is divisive and does the breed that we all profess to love, no good at all.
I would suggest a mentor for you, but apparently you don't need one, since you know more than those who have been successfully producing quality Golden Retrievers for more years than you have likely been alive.
Best of luck to you, and moreso, to your dog.


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## Emmysourgolden (Oct 10, 2007)

We got Emmy in the winter and froze our butts off! Lol! I'd do it again though...you gotta get up in the middle of the night at some point with the pup, it sucked that it was freezing but to me getting up at any time of year in the middle of the night sucks so....

If this couple has no young children I don't see what the big deal is. It sounds to me like the wife maybe wants to surprise her hubby with a pup. I'm guessing they've probably talked it over and are planning on getting one so she is just going to make it extra special. We don't know what the story is but there are litters year round, sounds like she's just seeing if a good breeder would by chance have some pups available. I can see if someone on the 21st of December says, "what should we get the kids?...oh a puppy!!' that is not smart. However, I wouldn't be opposed to getting a Chistmas pup if it just so happened to work out that way. It depends on the owners and it would be up to the breeder to ensure that this family was serious on getting a dog and taking on all the responsibilities.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

vrocco1 said:


> Come on folks, let's not fight over Christmas. Let's fight about something important. The Steelers are playing the Pats!


Vern, Darling... Football is not hockey, therefore it is not important. Golden Retrievers, and their health and wellbeing, are.
If you weren't in New England, somewhere, I'd ask you to step outside... with my husband. (HAHAHA! THAT'd be a fight - Bernie would be like, "Yo, Paisan! Fuggedaboudit... Let's hava cigar..."


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

the ONLY benefit i can see to getting a puppy in the winter is that they are little personal heaters and GREAT to snuggle with on a cold night...


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

It is because these people who are breeding don't take time to educate themselves nor do they give a flying flip about the dogs they are breeding or the puppies they are bringing into the world. I feel for your dog and the puppies she will produce. But if you know sooooo much you should have no problems. Not only does the Breed itself depend on Breeders like myself and others but so do they families that want something safe and healthy for them and their children.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> Vern, Darling... Football is not hockey, therefore it is not important. Golden Retrievers, and their health and wellbeing, are.
> If you weren't in New England, somewhere, I'd ask you to step outside... with my husband. (HAHAHA! THAT'd be a fight - Bernie would be like, "Yo, Paisan! Fuggedaboudit... Let's hava cigar..."


That all depends on what sort of cigars he smokes. We might have that fight anyway.  Of course, we could always argue about who's mother makes better gravy.


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## kwikrnu (Dec 2, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> we believe that the puppies WE produce are God's gift to the dog world...


 
Actually all dogs are gods gift, not just the ones you breed.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

vrocco1 said:


> That all depends on what sort of cigars he smokes. We might have that fight anyway.  Of course, we could always argue about who's mother makes better gravy.


 He only smokes the best, because I buy them. I get a great bottle of wine, and then take it to Nolan's Tobacco Shoppe (a really iconic shop in TC - they even have a wooden Indian in front, and the door is always open and the store (tiny) filled with men from town smoking and gossiping. The aroma is heaven when you walk by...) and Mr. Nolan pairs a cigar with the wine. Awesome.

As for the gravy, the fight would be about your mother vs his grandmother or wife. His mom is too cosmopolitan to make gravy these days!


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Nah, you can't bring your wife to a cook off (gun fight). It has to be your mother or her mother. Remeber the edible complex we Italians all suffer from.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> Actually all dogs are gods gift, not just the ones you breed.


Well, there you go. Another justification for BYB's and puppy millers. Hard to argue with that, isn't it...


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

Phoebe came home on December 23...she was housetrained in four days, training in the winter was no problem at all. My kids were 16 and 18. I'm an experienced foster home and trust me, when a dog needs rescuing it doesn't matter what the weather is and what holiday it is, a dog in need gets placed in a foster home. I'm used to having new dogs/puppies in the house, babygates everywhere, Phoebe had no access to Christmas tree, packaging, safety issues always considered.

I think some households will do fine bringing a puppy home around the holidays. I think the excitement level in a house with small children can be tricky. In rescue, we are very careful about placing a dog in a home at Christmas, but if the family is right, we do. I would never have considered getting my small children a puppy at Christmas and Christmas was not a consideration when we got Phoebe, it just so happened that 8 weeks fell at Christmas. 

IMHO, a reputable breeder is one of God's gifts to the world.

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Phoebe said:


> Phoebe came home on December 23...she was housetrained in four days, training in the winter was no problem at all. My kids were 16 and 18. I'm an experienced foster home and trust me, when a dog needs rescuing it doesn't matter what the weather is and what holiday it is, a dog in need gets placed in a foster home. I'm used to having new dogs/puppies in the house, babygates everywhere, Phoebe had no access to Christmas tree, packaging, safety issues always considered.
> 
> I think some households will do fine bringing a puppy home around the holidays. I think the excitement level in a house with small children can be tricky. In rescue, we are very careful about placing a dog in a home at Christmas, but if the family is right, we do. I would never have considered getting my small children a puppy at Christmas and Christmas was not a consideration when we got Phoebe, it just so happened that 8 weeks fell at Christmas.
> 
> IMHO, a reputable breeder is one of God's gifts to the world.


there is a big difference between getting a puppy at christmas time with young children and getting a christmas puppy with a 16 and 18 year old. in your case, i see nothing wrong with it.. and of course you were looking out for the best interest of Phoebe and not making an impulse christmas gift decision...


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

I would never sell a puppy around the holidays. The one and only time I had a litter ready near Christmas I held onto them and they left for their new homes after the holidays. All of my puppies are sold on limited registration. The last thing I want is to have a bitch from my breeding to end up popping out puppies like a pez dispenser so their new owner can make a quick buck. I have worked long and hard to get where I am in my breeding program and I am very proud of my reputation.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Wow, I saw this thread when it first went up this morning and it certainly blew up since then! Might as well throw in my own 2 cents for what it's worth:
Kerribear: I wish your friend the best of luck in finding the perfect puppy for her and her husband. I also originally had the knee-jerk reaction of "oh no not a 'Christmas puppy'!" but seeing the other information that you put up it makes a lot more sense. I would have to agree with some others that have said she might do better to wait a few weeks. Chances are most reputable breeders have avoided doing a holiday-timed breeding, and if anyone happened to have one, chances are they've been sold. This is, of course, not including BYBs or other irresponsible breeders, which I'm sure your friend would not be interested in anyway. Keep us updated on her search, and by all means encourage her to join us here on the board!

Kwikernu: You are right that ALL dogs, no matter how they are bred, are a wonderful gift from God that teach us about unconditional love and loyalty. HOWEVER, a person that is willing to devote themselves to carefully researching pedigrees and vetting dogs, getting clearances over multiple multiple generations, carefully matching dogs to decrease (and hopefully someday eliminate) the hereditary diseases that plague these beautiful creatures, while allowing the gentle temperment and beautiful appearance goldens (or any other breed) are known for to flourish are certainly no less of a gift. If there were ONLY breeders like these in the world, we would not have all these dogs in shelters and in need of rescue. I certainly would not want to live in a world without that type of breeder.

Julie and Jersey


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I shudder to think of getting a puppy at Christmas. Getting Lucky on my daughters Birthday was bad enough. But Kerribear your friends are obviously different from my situation and seem to be well-thought out people. I hope they are rewarded soon.


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## JensDreamboy (May 25, 2007)

I'm going to be having a new Winter pup and from what I've heard they are easier to potty train because it's cold out and they don't want to linger, just do their business and back in. That's not from experience, but from a very experienced breeder. (not the one I'm getting the pup from) 
I've always wanted a puppy in a big wrapped box under the Christmas tree! A dream of mine since I was a child. Just a dream though. I think if the pup is for an experienced person who once was a breeder herself, and NOT for small children as a Christmas gift, then why not? Just have to find a great breeder who happens to have them available, and from reading here it doesn't seem very likely.


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

I think some of the things said in this thread have been just plain mean.I am not a breeder and will be trying to find great homes for puppies delivered in my care next month and I certainly hope that I don't come across people who think that because these puppies were not planned with parents x-rays completed and thousands invested that they aren't worth anything or that I don't care for them.I think Kerri started this thread with no idea how much drama would happen in it and I also think that someone is feeling unwelcome on this forum now and don't see how we are supposed to bring someone around to our way of thinking if we run them off before educating them about our ways?I know for a fact that some very sweet people came across as mean people today.Maybe I will get everyone pissed at me for posting this but I think we need to control our tempers before we click submit.Did I mention I love you all?


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## EddieME (Nov 25, 2007)

Eddie gets us out to see some of the most beautiful sunrises with sea-smoke in the cold air. Guess you just need to love winter


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Amen Peanuts Mom.....


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

PeanutsMom said:


> I think some of the things said in this thread have been just plain mean.I am not a breeder and will be trying to find great homes for puppies delivered in my care next month and I certainly hope that I don't come across people who think that because these puppies were not planned with parents x-rays completed and thousands invested that they aren't worth anything or that I don't care for them.I think Kerri started this thread with no idea how much drama would happen in it and I also think that someone is feeling unwelcome on this forum now and don't see how we are supposed to bring someone around to our way of thinking if we run them off before educating them about our ways?I know for a fact that some very sweet people came across as mean people today.Maybe I will get everyone pissed at me for posting this but I think we need to control our tempers before we click submit.Did I mention I love you all?


 
First, PM, your circumstance was not in any way relative to this conversation. You got a dog not even knowing that she had become pregnant. No one has anything but admiration for the fact that you have done your best for Peaches and her puppies, and of course understand that she nor the sire had clearances, and why. 
Secondly, none of the reputable breeders who replied to this thread were getting on Kerribear, or her friend, but only offering the information that getting a puppy at Christmas time, from a reputable breeder was going to be tough, and why. "kwikernu" made a couple of incredibly offensive comments regarding reputable breeders, and those breeders replied with valid reasons why they choose not to send puppies to new homes over the holidays. Rather than choosing to understand that reasoning, kwikernu determined that we "think that we are gods gift to the dog world." kwikernu, a new forum member, and not an experienced breeder, is not open to being educated, but rather thinks he/she knows better than people who are. I also know, for a fact, that the breeders responding to kwikernu's comments DID think twice before clicking submit. I myself chose not to respond to some of her posts in a previous thread which were also agumentative and demeaning towards another experienced and reputable breeder. Today's posts were pretty much a last straw for most of us.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Argh, sometimes I hate computers. My post didn't go through so I'll try typing this again:

Peanut's Mom: I'm sorry if I'm one of the people that came across as mean in my reply and I certainly meant no disrespect for the wonderful job you have been doing with your dog and her puppies. I agree that EVERY dog deserves a loving family and a forever home. However, if I remember correctly you did not decide to breed your dog just for the fun of it. You happened to adopt a pregnant mother. (If I'm confusing you with someone else, I apologize for that too. I'm still pretty new here) And if I'm being totally honest, I think there's a HUGE difference between someone like you who is doing everything she can for these pups and someone who believes there is no benefit to learning from the experience of those who have devoted themselves to developing a sound breeding program. Again, I wish nothing but the best for you and your pups and I'm sorry if anything I said was insulting toward you. That certainly was not my intent.

Julie and Jersey


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Argh, sometimes I hate computers. My post didn't go through so I'll try typing this again:
> 
> Peanut's Mom: I'm sorry if I'm one of the people that came across as mean in my reply and I certainly meant no disrespect for the wonderful job you have been doing with your dog and her puppies. I agree that EVERY dog deserves a loving family and a forever home. However, if I remember correctly you did not decide to breed your dog just for the fun of it. You happened to adopt a pregnant mother. (If I'm confusing you with someone else, I apologize for that too. I'm still pretty new here) And if I'm being totally honest, I think there's a HUGE difference between someone like you who is doing everything she can for these pups and someone who believes there is no benefit to learning from the experience of those who have devoted themselves to developing a sound breeding program. Again, I wish nothing but the best for you and your pups and I'm sorry if anything I said was insulting toward you. That certainly was not my intent.
> 
> Julie and Jersey


I agree , I was referring to one comment earlier by someone else that just rubbed me wrong.I'm here because I do want to learn more.I just get upset when it feels like others who are clueless as I was make the wrong comment and get run off the forum.There I go again.One day I'll learn to just shut up.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Don't shut up...


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Kerri,
I am hoping that your friend is able to find a golden puppy this holiday. It sounds like she has an enviroment that would not be bad for a puppy to come into during the holiday. 
Peanutsmom,
Everyone that has been here for awhile knows you are doing the best for the situation you were dealt. You have done an amazing job for Peaches and the pups. 
Please keep us updated on your friends progress.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

PeanutsMom said:


> I agree , I was referring to one comment earlier by someone else that just rubbed me wrong.I'm here because I do want to learn more.I just get upset when it feels like others who are clueless as I was make the wrong comment and get run off the forum.There I go again.One day I'll learn to just shut up.


THere is a big difference, PM, between people like you, who are looking to learn more and are open to information, and others who think that they already know everything and have no desire to learn from those who are far more experienced and offer information, only to be told that they are "silly" or worse.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

BeauShel said:


> Kerri,
> I am hoping that your friend is able to find a golden puppy this holiday. It sounds like she has an enviroment that would not be bad for a puppy to come into during the holiday.
> Peanutsmom,
> Everyone that has been here for awhile knows you are doing the best for the situation you were dealt. You have done an amazing job for Peaches and the pups.
> ...


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## Jellybean's mom (Jul 6, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> If my female pup has a good temperment, and is good on her clearances I will breed her with a similar dog and place the puppies when they are 8 weeks or older and if that happens to be at Christmas time all the better.:wave:


This comment just made my heart sink. Just because your female may be "good on her clearances" there is SO much more to be taken into account when knowingly consiering breeding dogs. It doesn't appear that ANY of the dogs in your pup's pedigree have had clearances. You have no idea what genetic problems could be lurking in the line. We've had too many members share their heartache in dealing with dysplastic puppies, congenital heart defects, etc. for me to sit by and take this comment lightly. There is always a level of uncertainty when breeding, but reputable people, GOOD people research and do their homework to stack the deck in favor of a HEALTHY litter. You're bringing puppies into this world for God's sake! PUPPIES!! Think about how you would feel if 1/2 the little (or even just ONE pup) was in PAIN their WHOLE life because you didn't know there was dysplasia in your dam's genes. Think about a family, just like your family, spending their life's savings to try to save a pup with a congental defect. It's not melodramatic, it's REAL. And we listen to it here everday.


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

Jellybean's mom said:


> This comment just made my heart sink. Just because your female may be "good on her clearances" there is SO much more to be taken into account when knowingly consiering breeding dogs. It doesn't appear that ANY of the dogs in your pup's pedigree have had clearances. You have no idea what genetic problems could be lurking in the line. We've had too many members share their heartache in dealing with dysplastic puppies, congenital heart defects, etc. for me to sit by and take this comment lightly. There is always a level of uncertainty when breeding, but reputable people, GOOD people research and do their homework to stack the deck in favor of a HEALTHY litter. You're bringing puppies into this world for God's sake! PUPPIES!! Think about how you would feel if 1/2 the little (or even just ONE pup) was in PAIN their WHOLE life because you didn't know there was dysplasia in your dam's genes. Think about a family, just like your family, spending their life's savings to try to save a pup with a congental defect. It's not melodramatic, it's REAL. And we listen to it here everday.


That is very true.If you type dysplastic into our search bar you will see some threads from people already going through this.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Yes, PM no one here ever thought negitively of you at all and these comments were not directed to you at all. Your right you do want to learn you don't come at us with this rude attitude and this belief that we are snobs who think of everything without a conformation title is crap. Everyone see's that you do want to help and you do want the best for Peaches. 

I cannot say it any better then those before me. I respect the hell out of Pointgold. I am 99% sure that I will not have to even read the post/problem and I will come to a very similar conclusion. 

Can I ask you some questions *kwikrnu??? *What are you trying to achieve with you breeding this litter?? Why would you decide to breed your female?? - You want to come here as you have a Golden do you want to learn and socialize am I right?? 

I feel you are far too opinionated and argumentitve. You have offended and demeaned Breeders here and try to take on reputable, experienced, knowledgable people. I just don't understand you logic at all. Maybe before you start fighting with people you should get to know them and let others know you. I can tell you ask anyone and they will tell you I am NOT a difficult person to get along with. You are the common dinominator of all these issues on these threads. You have an know it all attititude. No one person knows everthing but I can tell you others know alot more then you so to have you argue with people and myself of all people just looks ridiculous. Thats all I have to say about this issue. Oh and your poor female I really feel for her and the puppies you plan to put on the ground.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

How to win friends and influence people, indeed


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

This person has a chip on her/his shoulder because he/she thinks breeders are snotty and/or self righteous. Keep it up, because all you are doing is proving him/her right.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

I guess we will just agree to disagree on this issue, why not?? I really like this forum and the people on it and don't want it to be uncomfortable for me or others. Good luck with your puppy. It looks like is found a good home. I hope you seriously consider doing some research and learning before you dive into breed her. That is a while away so you have lots of time. The people on this forum including myself would be happy to help if you allow us. In the meantime just cool it OK.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I think we can all agree to disagree, and to help as much as we can and as much as our help is desired. I do believe this puppy is loved.


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

Wow gang! PLEASE no more flaming people! PLEASE!

Yes I too knew all too well about finding pups at this time from rept. breeders and the reasons why, but I told her I would ask and I did. So I will tell her it really is not the best time to get a pup! As she really should already know this, being that she use to breed Goldens...

So please, let's not run anyone off, just educate them! If that person is willing to learn from us? Which I pray they are!!! 

Shelly-PM, your situation is 1 that was totally un-exspected and therefore you had no control over it. You are a great G'ma to those pups and a great Mom to Peaches...
You took in a beautiful dog who happened to be prego and now you are the one who is loving them and her with all your heart...Bless you for doing this....being in rescue I too know all to well about this and the un-exspected things when it comes to taking in dog...

Please, everyone, No more flaming of anyone! PLEASE???

Kerri


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## Nicole&Zack (Feb 27, 2007)

We got Zack on christmas eve....wouldnt wanted it any other way. He just happend to be born in Nov and was ready in dec. Perfect for me. He adjusted well.
I volunteered at the shelter in may and june and it was the worst time for shelters and rescues everywhere because all the *christmas puppies* were now 6 month old and people just couldnt deal with it.


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## kwikrnu (Dec 2, 2007)

Jellybean's mom said:


> This comment just made my heart sink. Just because your female may be "good on her clearances" there is SO much more to be taken into account when knowingly consiering breeding dogs. It doesn't appear that ANY of the dogs in your pup's pedigree have had clearances. You have no idea what genetic problems could be lurking in the line. We've had too many members share their heartache in dealing with dysplastic puppies, congenital heart defects, etc. for me to sit by and take this comment lightly. There is always a level of uncertainty when breeding, but reputable people, GOOD people research and do their homework to stack the deck in favor of a HEALTHY litter. You're bringing puppies into this world for God's sake! PUPPIES!! Think about how you would feel if 1/2 the little (or even just ONE pup) was in PAIN their WHOLE life because you didn't know there was dysplasia in your dam's genes. Think about a family, just like your family, spending their life's savings to try to save a pup with a congental defect. It's not melodramatic, it's REAL. And we listen to it here everday.


I guess everyone needs to stop breeding dogs if that is the case. 

Anyone with a real family who spends their entire life savings on a dog needs to rethink their priorities. I like dogs and other animals but some people are just nuts.
:doh:

I'd rather our puppy be free of defects, but if she isn't and we had purchased her from a breeder with a guarantee what would that breeder do? Return our money and take the dog? At day one the pup was part of our family.
As far as the Christmas puppy is concerned responsible people are responsible year round, year after year. Our youngest daughter was born near Christmas. We didn't and don't neglect her this time of year. As responsible pet owners why would we suddenly neglect our new puppy or our cat or our 11 year old dog?


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Well than I must be one of those nutty people.... I will spend *WHATEVER* I have to if it means given my dogs a great life and healthy. Maybe kwikrnu needs to go volunteer at a rescue and see what people do when Xmas is over and they no longer have time for there puppy. And yes every dog owner would rather have a dog that is healthy and has no defects, but that isnt always the case....There is always a chance even if you have all the clearances that a dog can have something wrong with it.


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

kwikrnu said:


> I guess everyone needs to stop breeding dogs if that is the case.
> 
> Anyone with a real family who spends their entire life savings on a dog needs to rethink their priorities. I like dogs and other animals but some people are just nuts.
> :doh:
> ...


Purchasing a $1000 puppy is cheap compared to purchasing a $300 puppy that may have health problems...it doesn't take long to spend that $700 dollar savings on vet bills. Obviously, there is still the possibility that a $1000 and up puppy will have health issues, but finding a breeder that is researching their lines is still prudent. I wouldn't say that everyone should stop breeding, but certainly anyone not interested in bettering the health/comformation of the breed should stop breeding. 

I do agree, a responsible pet owner will be responsible whenever they take a pet home, but I also feel that if the breeder you trust doesn't feel comfortable giving his/her puppies up during the Christmas holidays, that should be respected. Somebody else mentioned this (I believe Nicole & Zack), shelters and rescues get hit with dogs being dumped around April/May by people that wanted to thrill the kiddies with a cute little puppy under the tree not taking the time to consider the work, training and time a puppy demands. I think it is commendable that breeders are careful about placing puppies around the holidays. 

I can understand how you view this, but I can also see the other side of this. Really, does it matter if the puppy is under the tree on Christmas morning? My experience with kids is that they are all thrilled with their toys for the first couple of weeks and then want new stuff by mid January. Why not wait to bring a puppy home after the toy glow has worn off? Hopefully, whether it is a hobby breeder, show breeder, backyard breeder, whatever breeder you choose is somebody you trust and have confidence in. If so, respecting that breeder's commitment to the puppy should be a non issue.

I am involved with rescue, and I've fostered dogs that were purchased for Christmas and dumped in May. I can't tell you how disturbing it is when the owner brings the children with them to surrender the dog. Kids crying, I feel like the Wicked Witch of the West...same for the family that bought the dog at the pet store that couldn't afford the vet bills for allergies, brought the kids with them when they surrendered the dog. Not fair to me or the kids. While you may be committed to and experienced with dogs, there are so many that are not and it makes sense that breeders would be cautious about placing dogs around Christmas.

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

There are many responsible people who will do well with a puppy any time of year. Unfortunately, many of the Christmas pups wind up in rescue. Many of the Christmas pups get into trouble with all the holiday trimmings, foods, etc. 
Not everyone will neglect their pups if they come to live with them during the holidays. It's just a recommendation. 

The one thing I have found to be important in my own family is, communication. In our case, we all wanted another dog and we choose a Golden. I however decided early on that I was the person who would be responsible for all of Shadow's care. Walks, training, medical bills etc. This way I knew who was going to do what and I was never disappointed.

I did get Shadow in February and it was a very snowy year. We had a blast! There is nothing like a pup in snow. In fact, that's how Shadow got his name. He was playing in the shadows of our lighted lamppost late at night during a snow storm. From that night forward, he was called Shadow.

I'm not offended at being thought of as nutty. Heck, many people thought I was nutty for spending more than 6K on Shadow's hips before the age of one. I don't regret spending that money at all.


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## JensDreamboy (May 25, 2007)

Phoebe said:


> I am involved with rescue, and I've fostered dogs that were purchased for Christmas and dumped in May. I can't tell you how disturbing it is when the owner brings the children with them to surrender the dog. Kids crying, I feel like the Wicked Witch of the West...same for the family that bought the dog at the pet store that couldn't afford the vet bills for allergies, brought the kids with them when they surrendered the dog. Not fair to me or the kids. While you may be committed to and experienced with dogs, there are so many that are not and it makes sense that breeders would be cautious about placing dogs around Christmas.
> 
> Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


That is so so sad. I can't even imagine. I think it is so true that someone who doesn't know this side of it should absolutely volunteer at a shelter and get a real understanding of what *can *happen. That scene would be a life changing one for sure.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I want you and your pup to be welcome here. I have to admit I don't have a life savings (or a real family), nor do I have a sick dog. I've never been put in that position. I have a $300 dog with a BYB pedigree and she's the picture of health as are my other three- but two are Whippets and they are almost always healthy, and the other is a show bred Golden but still a rescue so an "unknown" background. However I know if something happened to one of my dogs, I'd no doubt to whatever it took to make sure they got the care they needed. They ARE my real family, actually 

I personally am not against you breeding your dog, if she's healthy, and ideally to a male with more clearances behind him. If that's what YOU decide to do, then I will offer as much help as I can. There are several respected and admired people here who breed dogs with BYB pedigrees, but all their actual dogs themselves have all their clearances. So far they've had healthy puppies (some are even on this board from these breeders). 

That's just my view. I do also understand the view of those who prefer more clearances behind. Is that ideal? Absolutely- I think it's ideal- in the perfect world. But I also admire and like other types of Goldens other than just the show ones or extreme working ones which are the only ones with generations of clearances.

Basically I don't think it matters what I think is ideal- to me it really only matters what each person thinks is ideal or at least acceptable, and to try to help him make the best decision for himself. I'm not the dog police. Sure, I have my preferences and limits. There are things I cannot stomach- such as high volume breeders, "English Cream" dogs sold for $2500. However, people breeding pretty, good natured, health cleared companions of a few generations of BYB origins just doesn't upset me.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> I guess everyone needs to stop breeding dogs if that is the case.
> 
> Anyone with a real family who spends their entire life savings on a dog needs to rethink their priorities. I like dogs and other animals but some people are just nuts.
> :doh:
> ...


 
You are entirely missing the point, or, perhaps you are choosing not to see it in order to justify your position. Not one single breeder who has responded to this thread has said anything about people being irresponsible. First off, the people that I sell my puppies to are not irresponsible. I screen potential buyers thoroughly. Because they wait a considerable length of time for one of my puppies, we get to know each other quite well during the time between a committment to sell/purchase, and the day they take their puppy home. This becomes a most trusting relationship, benefitting all of us - me, the buyer, and the puppy, and allows for me to make the best choice as to which puppy they will get. 
So, during this period I already KNOW that the purchaser is responsible. That is not the issue. The reason, again, for not sending a puppy home over the holidays is simply that I believe, as do many experts, that the stress is hard on the both the puppy and the families (perhaps not children, but certainly the adults who are providing the majority of the care) and that the puppy is not going to get the full attention it deserves during the adjustment of going to it's new home. And that does not mean "neglect", but the time that should be spent is going to be compromised during the busy holiday season. Period.
Secondly, truly reputable breeders do NOT require the return of puppies if there are any medical issues. And nearly every one of us on this forum have stated that numerous times.
If $800 - $1000 dolllars for a well-bred dog, from a carefully planned breeding made to improve the breed and lessen the chances of hereditary defects, and with longevity and good health at the forefront, is your life savings, then perhaps rethinking the purchase of a dog, and going through rescue, knowing that you are saving a dog but also taking a chance on health issues (which you are also doing when you purchase a less expensive pure-bred, with questionable health history and a negligable pedigree) would be the route that you should take, rather than saying that those who can and do have their priorities in the wrong place. I have sold puppies to families who are not wealthy by any means, who have saved money specifically for the purchase of that dog, because they wanted to take every care possible to assure that the dog they brought into their family had every chance of a long, healthy life. You cannot fault them for that.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I don't want to put words in her mouth, but I don't think she was saying the purchase price of $1000 is the life savings. I think she meant people who spent their life savings on a sick dog's hip surgery are nuts. (not offering an opinion here, just saying what I THINK the poster was meaning, or what I took from it)


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> ...If my female pup has a good temperment, and is good on her clearances I will breed her with a similar dog and place the puppies when they are 8 weeks or older and if that happens to be at Christmas time all the better.:wave:


 
And if one of her puppies is diagnosed with hip or elbow displaysia or a heart defect that will require expensive treatment, and the owners you placed that puppy with either can't or won't pay for the treatment, will you take that puppy back and provide the care it needs? What if one of them decides they just don't want the puppy 3-6 months after buying it from you, will you take it back?

I'd like to point out that you yourself did not get a puppy AT Christmas, according to the date on the picture you posted, your puppy came home a month before Christmas. Which is great and gives you, your puppy and your family time to settle in before the holiday excitement.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I don't want to put words in her mouth, but I don't think she was saying the purchase price of $1000 is the life savings. I think she meant people who spent their life savings on a sick dog's hip surgery are nuts. (not offering an opinion here, just saying what I THINK the poster was meaning, or what I took from it)


If this is what she is saying, then it begs the question: What will SHE do if her "Golden with a poor pedigree from a BYB" (her words) is diagnosed as dysplastic? It seems that would mean that she would not treat her. Would this mean that the dog is euthanized? And, ACC, you know full well that to breed an individual dog, even with clearances, with no history of clearances for several generations behind, is far more likely to produce hereditary diseases than not. You and I certainly part ways in encouraging people to breed such dogs, and that is NOT an "elitist" attitude, but one born of experience and being realistic.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

And that's okay- we don't have to agree  

Like I said I'm not 100% sure of her meaning above but that's how I took it.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

I was very pleased to wake up to this thread this morning. If you did not have a guarentee and/or contract with that specified she does not have to do anything your dog can fail everything get HD at 19 months and won't be able to walk by 6 yrs and she had to do nothing, you get no money back you get no replacement thats if you did not sign anything. Health guarentees are whole other matter. Personally and I cannot speak for anyone else I do NOT require the puppy back to fufill the guarentees. The owner actually has 3 diffrent options and they may choose one. The fact that you don't know the clearence history, the health issues, and the temperaments never mind the conformational faults does not make for a promising/safe breeding. I am very sorry you paid that amount of money for something with no clearence history and no titled dogs closer up in the pedigree. Maybe this one won't work out for breeding and you can find one that will later on.


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## Farley Rocks! (Nov 15, 2007)

I take a weekend off and miss all the good stuff.

#1 I am not a breeder, don't pretend to be and have a lot of respect for those who breed to IMPROVE the breed..not just make puppies. No matter how pretty your dog is or how nice she is...WHY would you breed any dog if you have no interest in improving the breed? The world is filled with unwanted puppies from people who have no idea what they are doing - why would anyone want to add to that. If you do feel all dogs are "Gods Gift" then you what you can to ensure their health and safety. Don't breed when you don't know what you are doing and what health issues you may be passing on. Farley's breeder understands that her pups are immediately part of a family when they go home and her she offers money back WITHOUT taking the pup away. Many breeders I looked into had similar policies. While there is never a guarantee, most knowledgeable breeders are comfortable enough with the dogs they are producing to offer contracts like that. 
#2 I have two kids, little money and house full of "unwanteds". While I would not put my family in jeopardy for my dog - I do feel that when you bring a dog into your home, it and all its future health concerns are your responsibility...even the unexpected. Short of starving my family - I would spend what I needed to keep my dog healthy and happy.
#3 Even in the shelters right now- puppies and dogs are being adopted like wildfire....while it sounds great initially - many of these dogs will be returned with two months because the Christmas novelty wears off. Purebred or shelter dog - the holidays are a notoriously bad time for homing dogs. While there are exceptions to every rule - a majority of people wanting dogs at this time are not prepared to invest the time and energy needed to properly raise a pup and can't see past the "Lady and the Tramp" version of a puppy for Christmas. Responsable breeders are aware of this and want their pups placed permanently in the best homes possible - they help ensure that happens by offering pups when people are more prepared to comprehend the task of dog ownership...not because they feel like making rules and playing "God".

The idea of a forum is to share and to learn....but each member needs to be open to new ideas and ways of doing things. If you have already formed a negative opinion of a certain type of person you will not allow yourself to learn from them. When numerous people have been breeding dogs for a number of years it pays to listen. Even if you don't agree with their practices... there is always a way to disagree without being disrespectful. 
Up until last year I was one of those who thought that "snobs" had to have purebreds and that the AKC papers were just a waste of ink, breeders just wanted to make money off poor saps who did not care enough save a dog from a shelter and were more concerned about prestige and status. While that is the still the case for a lot of people....the number of responsible breeders I have met have changed my overall opinion. 
If some breeders do seem testy when attacked...I think its mainly because of the amount of ignorance they deal with from people like how I used to be. Likewise...when the inexperienced attack others...it may be because they have not dealt with "good" breeders and misconstrue the limits enforced.


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## kathy/mi (Nov 6, 2007)

While I agree with not getting a puppy around Christmas usually, we just picked up our new little guy yesterday at 8 and half weeks. The breeder we went with had never had a Christmas litter, nor did she want these two to be. However, it was the first time she was breeding these two females, and the male she bred them to was leaving the country permanently and did not want to do in vitro. She took the time to emphasize how the puppy was a member of our family and not a present. I think she knew that none of the puppies were meant to be presents. She also wrote in the contract that the puppy comes back to her first. She is a very reputable breeder and money was not her motive whatsoever. She breeds and shows because she loves her dogs and wants to improve the breed. Anyone that does a purposeful breeding to not improve the breed shouldn't breed at all.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kathy/mi said:


> While I agree with not getting a puppy around Christmas usually, we just picked up our new little guy yesterday at 8 and half weeks. The breeder we went with had never had a Christmas litter, nor did she want these two to be. However, it was the first time she was breeding these two females, and the male she bred them to was leaving the country permanently and did not want to do in vitro. She took the time to emphasize how the puppy was a member of our family and not a present. I think she knew that none of the puppies were meant to be presents. She also wrote in the contract that the puppy comes back to her first. She is a very reputable breeder and money was not her motive whatsoever. She breeds and shows because she loves her dogs and wants to improve the breed. Anyone that does a purposeful breeding to not improve the breed shouldn't breed at all.


Out of curiousity, Kathy, are you saying she bred both bitches to the same dog? so has 2 half-sib litters? Why was the sire leaving the country?


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

i dont think the people who "spend their life savings" on vet bills are insane... the way i see it, when you make the lifetime commitment to a pet, that is committing to keeping that pet happy and HEALTHY. i am a full time college student, also working full time. i am BROKE all the time. but i know that if it came down to it, if Sam was diagnosed with HD or cancer or anything else, i would do ANYTHING i could for his treatment. that is the biggest reason i purchased pet insurance for him. i know that if it came down to it, i could never afford 1000s of dollars for surgeries for him at once, but i can definitely afford the $25/month for insurance that will pay for any surgery he may need. i may eat cheap food, but i make sure Sam has the best food i can afford. you say people need to get their priorities straight.. well, he is my priority. and i'm proud of it.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Sit Happens said:


> This person has a chip on her/his shoulder because he/she thinks breeders are snotty and/or self righteous. Keep it up, because all you are doing is proving him/her right. [/quote
> 
> all i am going to say on this thread or this comment is; I welcome you to walk in my shoes of late, and see what it feels like to watch your bitch die, puppies fade, numerous trips to the vets, lost work, excessive worry, lost weight myself, sleepless nights, NEED I GO ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! flame away sweety!
> & I do "do things right" and my puppies go home "after the holiday season"


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

> all i am going to say on this thread or this comment is; I welcome you to walk in my shoes of late, and see what it feels like to watch your bitch die, puppies fade, numerous trips to the vets, lost work, excessive worry, lost weight myself, sleepless nights, NEED I GO ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! flame away sweety!
> & I do "do things right" and my puppies go home "after the holiday season"


My heart goes out to you everytime I see you post. This is why I could never be a breeder. Even if you do everything right, something tragic can go wrong. I don't have it in me...


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

kwikrnu said:


> I guess everyone needs to stop breeding dogs if that is the case.
> 
> Anyone with a real family who spends their entire life savings on a dog needs to rethink their priorities. I like dogs and other animals but some people are just nuts.
> :doh:
> ...


Seriously, you DO get the point being made, yes? While YOU may not be a "hey, I think I'll get the kids a cute puppy for xmas that will grow up big and I will hate it and dump it off in a shelter when the kids are tired of it" person, MANY people are. If you knew anything about rescue, shelters, etc you would know that the number of dogs being dumped goes up after the holidays...just around the time when the cute balls of fluff become true work. How wonderful that you are the exception to the rule...God bless. What's the big deal if someone doesn't want to participate in the giving of a living thing as a gift at Xmas? I think you are truly trying to antagonize here...


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## Emmysourgolden (Oct 10, 2007)

arcane said:


> Sit Happens said:
> 
> 
> > This person has a chip on her/his shoulder because he/she thinks breeders are snotty and/or self righteous. Keep it up, because all you are doing is proving him/her right. [/quote
> ...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> Seriously, you DO get the point being made, yes? While YOU may not be a "hey, I think I'll get the kids a cute puppy for xmas that will grow up big and I will hate it and dump it off in a shelter when the kids are tired of it" person, MANY people are. If you knew anything about rescue, shelters, etc you would know that the number of dogs being dumped goes up after the holidays...just around the time when the cute balls of fluff become true work. How wonderful that you are the exception to the rule...God bless. What's the big deal if someone doesn't want to participate in the giving of a living thing as a gift at Xmas? I think you are truly trying to antagonize here...


You see, Lisa, that there are _two_ valid perspectives being presented here. That of the responsible, reputable breeders who have put their hearts and souls into the breedings they have made, who want the transition of going into their new homese to be as comfortable, safe, and stress free as possible for the puppies that they have produced, as well as for the owners. And also that of the rescues who see the results of Christmas puppy sales, most often produced by the BYB's, HVB's, and millers who do not care about anything so much as the checks in their pockets who happily send their puppies off, without regard to the very real possiblity that those puppies will in fact end up in a rescue once the novelty wears off. 
As an aside, I do like puppies that are born in December, and would not hesitate to make a breeding that will be, if that is how the timing works out. I am NOT producing a litter to be sold as holiday gifts, and will not send puppies to their new homes during that time. Again, all my puppy buyers know this _up_ _front, _just as they know that I will be making the choice as to which puppy is going to be theirs. I like December puppies for myself, because they will be six months old in June, and I like to start puppies in the more "local shows" in the 6-9 classes, and they are then ready for the 9-12 classes at the National. I have more time in the winter to devote to Puppy Kindergarten with the puppy/puppies that I keep, and to start them with the fun show training prior to their debut in the ring. This is my preference, and I find it ideal for what I personally like to do. Doesn't always work out that way for me, but I'm happy enough when it does.


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## kwikrnu (Dec 2, 2007)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> Seriously, you DO get the point being made, yes? While YOU may not be a "hey, I think I'll get the kids a cute puppy for xmas that will grow up big and I will hate it and dump it off in a shelter when the kids are tired of it" person, MANY people are. If you knew anything about rescue, shelters, etc you would know that the number of dogs being dumped goes up after the holidays...just around the time when the cute balls of fluff become true work. How wonderful that you are the exception to the rule...God bless. What's the big deal if someone doesn't want to participate in the giving of a living thing as a gift at Xmas? I think you are truly trying to antagonize here...


The original poster wanted a Christmas puppy. I agree with her it is a good thing. You and your breeder friends are the antagonists in this thread. I think responsible pet owners are the rule. The exceptions are those who do not care for their animals in a responsible manner.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I look around and I see alot of ho-hum dog owners. They may be "responsible" but it's not anywhere I'd want my golden to be. Here in Pennsylvania, there's an abundance of dogs tied on chains, for their entire lives. The state thinks that's responsible dog ownership. They're fed, they have shelter, medical care when they need it. 

"Responsible" is nowhere near good enough, in my book. It's certainly not good enough for my Daisy. As her owner, I am definitely not the rule. I'm way above, and I don't think there's very many like me out there. That's why I come here. :wave:


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

kwikrnu said:


> The original poster wanted a Christmas puppy. I agree with her it is a good thing. You and your breeder friends are the antagonists in this thread. I think responsible pet owners are the rule. The exceptions are those who do not care for their animals in a responsible manner.


I suggest you pay more attention to the forum before you begin dis-ing people. The people who's advice you are rejecting, are the very same people you should pay attention to. While you may not agree with them on this matter, there may come a time when you need some sound input on a different subject. 

I know who many of the people behind the screen names are, and if you did, you might more fully appreciate their advice. There is experience there that you can not even imagine. 

This is a friendly forum, where GR lovers of all types are welcome. The GRF is no longer just a "pet" forum. We have pet owners, hunters, agility participants, conformation people, professional trainers and breeders. You won't find that sort of mix anywhere else on the internet.

Just my $0.02.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> The original poster wanted a Christmas puppy. I agree with her it is a good thing. You and your breeder friends are the antagonists in this thread. I think responsible pet owners are the rule. The exceptions are those who do not care for their animals in a responsible manner.


Looking at the posts made, I think you have a truly skewed perspective as to who was "antagonistic". It was in fact you who came on and posted that you believe that the requirements of reputable breeders are "silly", and the crack about thinking they are "gods gift to the dog world"... If that wasn't designed to ruffle feathers, I cannot imagine any other purpose.

Here is a question for you, which goes directly towards what your motives might be: why would you come into this thread and state that you will, "if her temperament is good and she gets her clearances" - breed your bitch, who by _your_ _own_ words is a poorly bred BYB dog, and whose pedigree is filled with generations of uncleared dogs, and THEN, tell a moderator that you have no intention of breeding her? Could it be that you made that statement simply to inflame the members of the forum or to bait them into posting something else that you could then parlay into being "silly" or elitist? I think that for the most part, the breeders (and others who undertand and agree with those "silly requirements" we make for the well being and comfort of our puppies, have made polite and well thought out posts. Hardly antagonistic. This appears to be sport for you, and is not making you any friends, which on this forum is really very easy to do...


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## kwikrnu (Dec 2, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Looking at the posts made, I think you have a truly skewed perspective aas to who was "antagonistic". It was in fact you who came on and posted that you believe that the requirements of reputable breeders are "silly", and the crack about thinking they are "gods gift to the dog world"... If that wasn't designed to ruffle feathers, I cannot imagine any other purpose.
> 
> Here is a question for you, which goes directly towards what your motives might be: why would you come into this thread and state that you will, "if her temperament is good and she gets her clearances" - breed your bitch, who by _your_ _own_ words is a poorly bred BYB dog, and whose pedigree is filled with generations of uncleared dogs, and THEN, tell a moderator that you have no intention of breeding her? Could it be that you made that statement simply to inflame the members of the forum or to bait them into posting something else that you could then parlay into being "silly" or elitist? I think that for the most part, the breeders (and others who undertand and agree with those "silly requirements" we make for the well being and comfort of our puppies, have made polite and well thought out posts. Hardly antagonistic. This appears to be sport for you, and is not making you any friends, which on this forum is really very easy to do...


breeders have silly requirements, to name one, the Christmas puppy rule. Many of you breeders are full of yourselves and think you are gods gift to the dog world. I think you've shown it in this thread.
I used the word "if" the dog gets clearances and is a nice dog I would breed her. I never said I have no intention of breeding my dog. I said, "I probably wouldn't." It costs a lot of time and money to get all of the clearances and find a good stud and everything else which goes along with it. That is not to say I will never breed the dog. That decision will come in around two years or so. I think BYB's (like I could be) fill a need for inexpensive puppies.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I think I speak for alot of forum members who are not breeders, but simply lovers of the breed and owners of some of the most magnificent animals on earth. There is a TON to learn here and I, for one, feel very honored that these "tried and true" breeders would share their experience and wisdom .... even after only 2 months here I feel like I've found a home with friends for me and my pups. I know I've gathered info to make me a better "Mom" to my furry babes and, somewhere down the line, if I was ever priveleged enough to get a pup from Arcane, Pointgold or any of the other experienced forum members, I would feel very blessed.


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## kathy/mi (Nov 6, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Out of curiousity, Kathy, are you saying she bred both bitches to the same dog? so has 2 half-sib litters? Why was the sire leaving the country?


Both of the litters were out of first time mommies. They had bred Zoom to another female they have about 18 months ago, and the dogs/bitches are doing very well in the show ring so far. They wanted to repeat the breedings with 2 other females they had because the first set of puppies were so amazing. Both litters had Zoom as the dad and different moms, so half sib puppies all around! Zoom was leaving the country because he gets terribly sick when he flies (his owner is from the very north of Canada), and he has his championship so she wanted him home. She let Julie and Cortney have him for a few months for the last few breeding opportunities, and then he was staying in Canada unless someone wanted to come up there to bred with him. She ended up picking Zoom up when the puppies were only a few weeks old because she missed him so terribly. I think his trip to Westminster is the only time he will be in the country again. When we picked our guy up yesterday, they had nothing but wonderful and sweet things to say about you though!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Kwik, do you understand how much suffering comes from back-yard bred puppies with poor pedigrees? True, not all, but so many. And we hear the heartbreaking stories here far too often.

We need to be sooooo careful with back yard breeding. And the number of golden retrievers in rescues, and worse the number in kill shelters, is enough to make all of us here stop and think twice about where we get our puppies and what type of breeding we are supporting.

I find your sig line to be very disturbing. I think you just do not understand. The only other explanation would be that you do not care. And that is incomprehensible to me.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

I'm going to sum this one up with "Ya can't cure stupid" and move on. 

Kwik...I wish you and yours a happy holiday. Let us hope that should you decide to continue here on this forum, Santa will bring you something by Emily Post. :wave:


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## kwikrnu (Dec 2, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> Kwik, do you understand how much suffering comes from back-yard bred puppies with poor pedigrees? True, not all, but so many. And we hear the heartbreaking stories here far too often.
> 
> We need to be sooooo careful with back yard breeding. And the number of golden retrievers in rescues, and worse the number in kill shelters, is enough to make all of us here stop and think twice about where we get our puppies and what type of breeding we are supporting.
> 
> I find your sig line to be very disturbing. I think you just do not understand. The only other explanation would be that you do not care. And that is incomprehensible to me.


You've never heard a heartbreaking story from a puppy owner who's dog came from a well pedigreed line?

The sig line is in response to those who wanted to know the bitches pedigree. If she was sired by a champions I would probably have wrote that in there, but she wasn't. She is a pet with a poor pedigree who may or may not be bred. Better than that she is not on limited registration so in two years my daughter can eventually show her in the ring.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sorry, my computer bailed...dupe of post below...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kathy/mi said:


> Both of the litters were out of first time mommies. They had bred Zoom to another female they have about 18 months ago, and the dogs/bitches are doing very well in the show ring so far. They wanted to repeat the breedings with 2 other females they had because the first set of puppies were so amazing. Both litters had Zoom as the dad and different moms, so half sib puppies all around! Zoom was leaving the country because he gets terribly sick when he flies (his owner is from the very north of Canada), and he has his championship so she wanted him home. She let Julie and Cortney have him for a few months for the last few breeding opportunities, and then he was staying in Canada unless someone wanted to come up there to bred with him. She ended up picking Zoom up when the puppies were only a few weeks old because she missed him so terribly. I think his trip to Westminster is the only time he will be in the country again. When we picked our guy up yesterday, they had nothing but wonderful and sweet things to say about you though!


 
Thank you for that, Kathy. I never think about leaving the country as going to Canada! :doh: I've been around long enough that when I hear a dog is leaving the country, I think about him being sold to Asia or South America for a ridiculous amount of money! 
I had forgotten that you were getting a Lakesyde puppy.I adore Courtney and her Mom. I also like their current Zoom (Zoom Zoom Zoom, as opposed to MY Zoom) kids. I didn't realize that he doesn't fly well . Is your guy a Zoom kid?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> breeders have silly requirements, to name one, the Christmas puppy rule. Many of you breeders are full of yourselves and think you are gods gift to the dog world. I think you've shown it in this thread.
> I used the word "if" the dog gets clearances and is a nice dog I would breed her. I never said I have no intention of breeding my dog. I said, "I probably wouldn't." It costs a lot of time and money to get all of the clearances and find a good stud and everything else which goes along with it. That is not to say I will never breed the dog. That decision will come in around two years or so. I think BYB's (like I could be) fill a need for inexpensive puppies.


Good luck. You are going to need it.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> You've never heard a heartbreaking story from a puppy owner who's dog came from a well pedigreed line?
> 
> The sig line is in response to those who wanted to know the bitches pedigree. If she was sired by a champions I would probably have wrote that in there, but she wasn't. She is a pet with a poor pedigree who may or may not be bred. Better than that she is not on limited registration so in two years my daughter can eventually show her in the ring.


Good luck to your daughter. She is going to need it.


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## kathy/mi (Nov 6, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Thank you for that, Kathy. I never think about leaving the country as going to Canada! :doh: I've been around long enough that when I hear a dog is leaving the country, I think about him being sold to Asia or South America for a ridiculous amount of money!
> I had forgotten that you were getting a Lakesyde puppy.I adore Courtney and her Mom. I also like their current Zoom (Zoom Zoom Zoom, as opposed to MY Zoom) kids. I didn't realize that he doesn't fly well . Is your guy a Zoom kid?


Yup, our little guy's daddy is Zoom! We fell in love with him and researched who he had been bred with. We fell in love Berlyn (Lakesyde's r we havin fun yet) and are so happy with our baby so far!!!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kathy/mi said:


> Yup, our little guy's daddy is Zoom! We fell in love with him and researched who he had been bred with. We fell in love Berlyn (Lakesyde's r we havin fun yet) and are so happy with our baby so far!!!


Excellent! Congrats! And YOU are exactly the kind of buyers that a great breeder is thilled to have.
Unlike those who know more than the breeder, challenge every single philosophy they have, call them names, and demean those who prefer to work with a reputable breeder and understand why they utilize LTD registrations and insist on clear health histories for generations before even CONSIDERING producing a litter, particularly out of a marginal quality dog simply because they can.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> You've never heard a heartbreaking story from a puppy owner who's dog came from a well pedigreed line?
> 
> The sig line is in response to those who wanted to know the bitches pedigree. If she was sired by a champions I would probably have wrote that in there, but she wasn't. She is a pet with a poor pedigree who may or may not be bred. Better than that she is not on limited registration so in two years my daughter can eventually show her in the ring.


I havent really posted to all the things you have said. Just have one question for you since your little pup is just a baby. *What will you do if she has a problem with her hips or any hereditary problem? *Will you get her fixed or does your byb make any promise that they would refund your money or replace the pup? I would be interested in what you have to say.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

BeauShel said:


> I havent really posted to all the things you have said. Just have one question for you since your little pup is just a baby. *What will you do if she has a problem with her hips or any hereditary problem? *Will you get her fixed or does your byb make any promise that they would refund your money or replace the pup? I would be interested in what you have to say.


I asked that, too, as she said that people spending their lifes savings on dogs is stupid. (And, as too many on this forum who have dysplastic dogs prduced by BYB's like hers know, treating those poor dogs is very expensive...) Her "breeder", I am betting, will do NOTHING. So, will Kwiklube take care of her own dog? Enquiring, snobby, antagonistic minds want to know...


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Kwik: I'd like to make one suggestion, and I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, I'm actually trying to be helpful. You've stated that you plan on having one of your daughters show the dog for conformation. While a noble goal, if the dog is not "up to the standard" this could result in a significant loss of money on entries. My suggestion is this: look into the CCA (certificate of conformation assessment). It is run by the GRCA (golden retriever club of america) and is a somewhat informal assessment of the dog by actual conformation judges. As it is informal, the judges really take the time to talk to you about the dog's strengths and weaknesses and would give you an honest opinion as to your dog's ability to succeed in the conformation ring. I can't remember exactly how much it cost, but it would be less money than multiple entry fees for "real" trials. It may also save your daughter from feeling that it is something that she is doing wrong that is causing the dog not to succeeed, as the CCA judges strictly on the dog's structure and not the ability of the person handling it (which was a very lucky thing in my case because I have no conformation experience!). As I said, just a suggestion. 

Now, that said, I would hope that the statement you made earlier about people being crazy for spending "their life savings" on a dog's medical issues was simply made out of anger. I would hate to think that if your sweet little girl were to turn out to have a hereditary disease (such as hip dysplasia) that you simply allow her to suffer or dump her at a shelter. And I beg of you to do some research into different hereditary diseases that are common to goldens as well as the frequency with which they are connected to so called back yard breeders. Think of how crushed your little girls would be if Flicka were to be seriously ill. Now imagine being responsible for other children suffering in that way. Obviously there is never a guarentee that every puppy will be healthy even in the best planned litter (ask my parents about that one). BUT there is something to be said for stacking the deck in your favor. Just something to think about.

Julie and Jersey


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## kwikrnu (Dec 2, 2007)

BeauShel said:


> I havent really posted to all the things you have said. Just have one question for you since your little pup is just a baby. *What will you do if she has a problem with her hips or any hereditary problem? *Will you get her fixed or does your byb make any promise that they would refund your money or replace the pup? I would be interested in what you have to say.


Of course she'll have surgery for her hips if she has a hip problem. The BYB made us no guarantee and we knew that going in. I have no need for a replacement puppy. We have one dog, one puppy, a cat, and a couple of fish and need no more pets.


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## kwikrnu (Dec 2, 2007)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Kwik: I'd like to make one suggestion, and I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, I'm actually trying to be helpful. You've stated that you plan on having one of your daughters show the dog for conformation. While a noble goal, if the dog is not "up to the standard" this could result in a significant loss of money on entries. My suggestion is this: look into the CCA (certificate of conformation assessment). It is run by the GRCA (golden retriever club of america) and is a somewhat informal assessment of the dog by actual conformation judges. As it is informal, the judges really take the time to talk to you about the dog's strengths and weaknesses and would give you an honest opinion as to your dog's ability to succeed in the conformation ring. I can't remember exactly how much it cost, but it would be less money than multiple entry fees for "real" trials. It may also save your daughter from feeling that it is something that she is doing wrong that is causing the dog not to succeeed, as the CCA judges strictly on the dog's structure and not the ability of the person handling it (which was a very lucky thing in my case because I have no conformation experience!). As I said, just a suggestion.
> 
> Now, that said, I would hope that the statement you made earlier about people being crazy for spending "their life savings" on a dog's medical issues was simply made out of anger. I would hate to think that if your sweet little girl were to turn out to have a hereditary disease (such as hip dysplasia) that you simply allow her to suffer or dump her at a shelter. And I beg of you to do some research into different hereditary diseases that are common to goldens as well as the frequency with which they are connected to so called back yard breeders. Think of how crushed your little girls would be if Flicka were to be seriously ill. Now imagine being responsible for other children suffering in that way. Obviously there is never a guarentee that every puppy will be healthy even in the best planned litter (ask my parents about that one). BUT there is something to be said for stacking the deck in your favor. Just something to think about.
> 
> Julie and Jersey


We are not planning on traveling around the country. There are local dog shows and entry is about the cost of dinner at a normal restaurant. Plus, we have local dog club classes and it would do the pup good to get some training along with my daughter. I would consider a significant loss of money sending the dog cross country to a handler who would keep and show the dog for months to try and get enough points to become a champion she'll never be. 
I have taken a few dogs to shelters in the past. They were dogs my wife found in the street. They weren't _our_ dogs. This puppy is ours so it won't go to the shelter if something is wrong with it. If the problem is serious or costly enough she'll be euthanized but short of that she'll be fixed. Those who would use their life savings to save a dog are nuts. We'll go one further we're not paying over $3000 to a vet to fix a single problem with the dog, that is just stupid IMO.


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## Farley Rocks! (Nov 15, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> breeders have silly requirements, to name one, the Christmas puppy rule. Many of you breeders are full of yourselves and think you are gods gift to the dog world. I think you've shown it in this thread.
> I used the word "if" the dog gets clearances and is a nice dog I would breed her. I never said I have no intention of breeding my dog. I said, "I probably wouldn't." It costs a lot of time and money to get all of the clearances and find a good stud and everything else which goes along with it. That is not to say I will never breed the dog. That decision will come in around two years or so. I think BYB's (like I could be) fill a need for inexpensive puppies.


Sweetie, there is no need for inexpensive puppies like that....there is an abundance of people breeding dogs for profit that have no idea what they are doing. That only hurts the breed, the pups breed and the ignorant who buy them. If people want a purebred- they save for it. If they want a cheap dog - adopt. Either way- everyones needs are already met. Educated responsable dog owners are not as prevolent as you may think - The number of pet stores who sell animals, puppy mills and overflowing shelters are proof of that. Cheap and easy often times overcome research and preparation. I do hope one day you realise that the rules are set in place for a reason and that reason is the safety of the helpless and uneducated (when it comes to animals)....much like telling kids not to run with scissors. You'd think it was common sense but to the inexperienced its a rule made and enforced for their own safety :wave:


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

Kwikrnu, I can't figure you out. First of all, whether you bought your dog from a BYB, miller/broker/pet store, hobby or show breeder, adopted from rescue, pulled from a shelter, every dog is as special as the next. It isn't what you pay for the dog or the fancy pedigree, it is the personal relationship you have with your dog. The argument about the cost of dogs and what individuals can afford has been discussed over and over again and I think we all just have to agree to disagree. And yes, even from the best of breeders, health issues can occur. The benefit of knowing the breeder should a health issue occur, atleast you can contact that breeder and if the breeder cares about the future of the breed, the breeder can choose to no longer breed that particular dog/line. If you care about the future health/conformation/temperament of the breed, then selecting a breeder that you believe has that same concern should be considered when you pick your breeder. If you are not concerned about the future of the breed, then clearly that isn't a criteria for you when choosing a breeder. You seem to want to learn about breeding and yet you alienate the breeders here that are kind enough to try to educate you. If you are planning to have your daughter show your puppy in conformation, then it seems that the show venue is something that interests you and your daughter, so wouldn't it make the most sense to cultivate a positive relationship with breeders that are involved in showing? Let's say your daughter loves the conformation ring, grows up, starts researching lines, gets herself an amazing dog with excellent pedigree, has formed a relationship with the breeder of her amazing dog, is mentored through the process, starts producing champion lines, the welfare of the breed becomes her passion, becomes very careful about placing her dogs in trusted homes, asks a high price for the puppy because she has done all the clearances, the show costs, etc., will you consider her a snobby breeder that thinks she's God's Gift to the World?

I'm sorry if the above sounds rude. When I read your posts, I think I see a curiosity about pedigrees, somebody that loves the new puppy he has and is looking forward to involving his daughter in activities with the puppy. Overall, a supportive, encouraging parent. Then comes this disdain for breeders even though you want to get involved in showing and possibly breeding. You say you would put your dog down if vet expenses went over $3000 and you also suggest that you could be a potential BYB breeder in the future. So it would be alright with you to breed a puppy with health issues over $3000 and have the new family just put it down? Shouldn't breeding be more than just about producing puppies, shouldn't it be about trying to make sure the puppies don't suffer while they are on this earth and shouldn't there be some concern for the families that buy those puppies? Shouldn't the heartache of putting a dog down because they can't afford vet bills be considered? You don't think there is any responsibility when it comes to breeding? No respect or concern for those families that pay for your puppies? That isn't even a BYB...that's a miller...producing strictly for profit, no concern about health of the puppies and the emotional damage to the families.

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Kwikernu,

If your pup is indeed found to have hip dysplasia so severe she needs surgery, please consider bringing her to a rescue. A lot of crazy people out here like myself help rescues to cover expenses when we can.

I've always said, "I'm not normal. Normal is boring!" I spent 6k on Shadow's surgeries and people I know very well thought the same way you do about the cost. It's a choice we make. However, I didn't spend my life savings. I had not gotten a raise in 3 years and the retro check came just in time for Shadow's surgery.

I must say, since spending this money on Shadow, life has been good to me. I've been able to help a number of dogs in need and I truly feel I've received much more back than what I have given.


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## Farley Rocks! (Nov 15, 2007)

Phoebe said:


> Kwikrnu,
> I'm sorry if the above sounds rude. When I read your posts, I think I see a curiosity about pedigrees, somebody that loves the new puppy he has and is looking forward to involving his daughter in activities with the puppy. Overall, a supportive, encouraging parent.
> Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


Very good and positive point. I'd love Bren to show Farley but my idea of showing would be the local town shows....not the Eukanuba Cup ~

My advise - Kwik- spay your dog, look into the local shows, and just enjoy your new pup with your family.

Oh...and most people should not buy pups for Christmas


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> We are not planning on traveling around the country. There are local dog shows and entry is about the cost of dinner at a normal restaurant. Plus, we have local dog club classes and it would do the pup good to get some training along with my daughter. I would consider a significant loss of money sending the dog cross country to a handler who would keep and show the dog for months to try and get enough points to become a champion she'll never be.
> I have taken a few dogs to shelters in the past. They were dogs my wife found in the street. They weren't _our_ dogs. This puppy is ours so it won't go to the shelter if something is wrong with it. If the problem is serious or costly enough she'll be euthanized but short of that she'll be fixed. Those who would use their life savings to save a dog are nuts. We'll go one further we're not paying over $3000 to a vet to fix a single problem with the dog, that is just stupid IMO.


I think it would better serve you, Mr. Kwikie, to consider that while you do not feel that it is appropriate for YOU to spend any more than $3000 to treat any given problem, there are others who will. That does not make them "nuts", nor is it necessarily "stupid". While I believe in freedom of speech, I also believe in common decency and basic manners. None of the breeders or other Forum members have called you namesfor your beliefs, however much they may disagree with you. 

As for your daughter, as a persoin very involved in conformation, and one who has judged Juniors in several different venues as well as regularly teaching show dog handling and holding Junior Showmanship workshops, I hope that whoever you choose to have help you you are more polite to them and remain open to what they may try to teach your daughter. With the attitude that you maintain in regards to breeders and other who have far more experience and knowledge than yourself, you could easily alienate yourself, and thereby your daughter, from getting the kind of mentorship that she will most assuredly need.
Again, good luck to your daughter.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> Of course she'll have surgery for her hips if she has a hip problem. The BYB made us no guarantee and we knew that going in. I have no need for a replacement puppy. We have one dog, one puppy, a cat, and a couple of fish and need no more pets.


That's good to hear, although you may not be aware that hip displaysia repair runs at a minimum $3000. A dog that has HD can have a 100% return to normal activity and life expectancy with the repair. Would you be willing to have the surgery for Flicka at that price, or have her put to sleep instead because the cost is too high, even though surgery would completely correct the problem and she'd have a normal healthy life?

I spent $2000 on a knee repair for my Golden. He's happy, healthy, and bounces around like a puppy. I can't even get my mind around the thought of putting him to sleep because of that knee injury. So do you think I'm nuts or stupid?


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## Farley Rocks! (Nov 15, 2007)

mylissyk said:


> . So do you think I'm nuts or stupid?


Now, now...do you really want him to answer that?

But after listening to those prices- I am running out to invest in health insurance for Farley!!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Farley Rocks! said:


> Now, now...do you really want him to answer that?
> 
> But after listening to those prices- I am running out to invest in health insurance for Farley!!


 
lol. I wish I had bought health insurance before! Everything Robbie has now would be considered pre-existing and not covered!


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## justmejanis (Feb 25, 2007)

*Call me stupid.....*

Regardless of where your dog comes from, I believe it is our responsibility as "parents" to give them the best care possible. I did this when my Spencer was diagnosed with cancer at the age of four. I took him to Colorado to a fantastic veterinary teaching hospital. He was treated by the best oncologists and orthopedic surgeons. Did I spend my life savings? You bet, and then some. I believe my credit card loan will be paid off in 2011. Do I regret it? Not for a MINUTE. His prognosis was grim, weeks really, and I got seven months with that wonderful boy. Quality time. 

Call me stupid if you insist, but I loved him like a child and treated him as such.


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## Farley Rocks! (Nov 15, 2007)

justmejanis said:


> Regardless of where your dog comes from, I believe it is our responsibility as "parents" to give them the best care possible. I did this when my Spencer was diagnosed with cancer at the age of four. I took him to Colorado to a fantastic veterinary teaching hospital. He was treated by the best oncologists and orthopedic surgeons. Did I spend my life savings? You bet, and then some. I believe my credit card loan will be paid off in 2011. Do I regret it? Not for a MINUTE. His prognosis was grim, weeks really, and I got seven months with that wonderful boy. Quality time.
> 
> Call me stupid if you insist, but I loved him like a child and treated him as such.


 
That just breaks my heart...he was so young!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

People should know that the AKC's regulations for Junior Showmanship DO allow for spayed or neutered dogs to be shown in Junior conformation classes, as well as obedience and agility.

With a questionable pedigree and lack of history of health clearances, I would certainly recommend it.


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## FranH (May 8, 2005)

We got Holly in December. My husband and I usually take the month off and it was a perfect time to have a puppy brought into the house. We had lots of time to spend with her....and it was the 1 yr anniversary of losing Molly. I think it depends on the situation. Good luck to your friend finding a pup!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

This thread got totally hijacked. I'm sorry KerriB. Your friend obviously is someone who could handle getting a pup at Christmas very well. There are probably litters available, maybe even one from a GRF board member, but it will take some searching to find it. I hope your friend gets the puppy she wants.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm nuts and stupid, and pretty darn proud of it...


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## kwikrnu (Dec 2, 2007)

Phoebe said:


> Kwikrnu, I can't figure you out. First of all, whether you bought your dog from a BYB, miller/broker/pet store, hobby or show breeder, adopted from rescue, pulled from a shelter, every dog is as special as the next. It isn't what you pay for the dog or the fancy pedigree, it is the personal relationship you have with your dog. The argument about the cost of dogs and what individuals can afford has been discussed over and over again and I think we all just have to agree to disagree. And yes, even from the best of breeders, health issues can occur. The benefit of knowing the breeder should a health issue occur, atleast you can contact that breeder and if the breeder cares about the future of the breed, the breeder can choose to no longer breed that particular dog/line. If you care about the future health/conformation/temperament of the breed, then selecting a breeder that you believe has that same concern should be considered when you pick your breeder. If you are not concerned about the future of the breed, then clearly that isn't a criteria for you when choosing a breeder. You seem to want to learn about breeding and yet you alienate the breeders here that are kind enough to try to educate you. If you are planning to have your daughter show your puppy in conformation, then it seems that the show venue is something that interests you and your daughter, so wouldn't it make the most sense to cultivate a positive relationship with breeders that are involved in showing? Let's say your daughter loves the conformation ring, grows up, starts researching lines, gets herself an amazing dog with excellent pedigree, has formed a relationship with the breeder of her amazing dog, is mentored through the process, starts producing champion lines, the welfare of the breed becomes her passion, becomes very careful about placing her dogs in trusted homes, asks a high price for the puppy because she has done all the clearances, the show costs, etc., will you consider her a snobby breeder that thinks she's God's Gift to the World?
> 
> I'm sorry if the above sounds rude. When I read your posts, I think I see a curiosity about pedigrees, somebody that loves the new puppy he has and is looking forward to involving his daughter in activities with the puppy. Overall, a supportive, encouraging parent. Then comes this disdain for breeders even though you want to get involved in showing and possibly breeding. You say you would put your dog down if vet expenses went over $3000 and you also suggest that you could be a potential BYB breeder in the future. So it would be alright with you to breed a puppy with health issues over $3000 and have the new family just put it down? Shouldn't breeding be more than just about producing puppies, shouldn't it be about trying to make sure the puppies don't suffer while they are on this earth and shouldn't there be some concern for the families that buy those puppies? Shouldn't the heartache of putting a dog down because they can't afford vet bills be considered? You don't think there is any responsibility when it comes to breeding? No respect or concern for those families that pay for your puppies? That isn't even a BYB...that's a miller...producing strictly for profit, no concern about health of the puppies and the emotional damage to the families.
> 
> Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


If I wanted to learn about breeding I wouldn't look to this website. 

You don't need to know the breeder. If there is a problem you should, though most do not, have it listed on the offa site (if it is something they will list). That way future owners may have complete disclosure.

Sure it is okay to breed a dog that does not have health issues. I never said I would breed a dog with issues. You cannot know with 100% surety before hand what the liter will be like. If one had to know that a liter was 100% healthy with absolutely no issues before breeding there would be no breeding ever.


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## kwikrnu (Dec 2, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> I think it would better serve you, Mr. Kwikie, to consider that while you do not feel that it is appropriate for YOU to spend any more than $3000 to treat any given problem, there are others who will. That does not make them "nuts", nor is it necessarily "stupid". While I believe in freedom of speech, I also believe in common decency and basic manners. None of the breeders or other Forum members have called you namesfor your beliefs, however much they may disagree with you.
> 
> As for your daughter, as a persoin very involved in conformation, and one who has judged Juniors in several different venues as well as regularly teaching show dog handling and holding Junior Showmanship workshops, I hope that whoever you choose to have help you you are more polite to them and remain open to what they may try to teach your daughter. With the attitude that you maintain in regards to breeders and other who have far more experience and knowledge than yourself, you could easily alienate yourself, and thereby your daughter, from getting the kind of mentorship that she will most assuredly need.
> Again, good luck to your daughter.


Maybe stupid was too harsh. How about extremely unwise? How does one expect to live with no savings? You only have a few years to start saving for retirement to take advantage of compound interest. I suppose there is always the government to take care of you.

My daughter can go to the local dog club and they show her how to do the confirmation thing, $10 for a drop in. Then when she takes classes for obedience it is $90 for 8 weeks. It is well worth it to have a well behaved dog. Then there is always 4-H.


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> Maybe stupid was too harsh. How about extremely unwise? How does one expect to live with no savings? You only have a few years to start saving for retirement to take advantage of compound interest. I suppose there is always the government to take care of you.


At the start of this thread getting out of hand I was thinking that some of our members could have been a bit nicer to you.I was so very wrong.You have shown yourself to be a very rude person.I'm not sure if it has something to do with living in Brentwood that makes you feel are above everyone else's social standards.I would consider my own snobbish comments before speaking of others.


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## kwikrnu (Dec 2, 2007)

PeanutsMom said:


> At the start of this thread getting out of hand I was thinking that some of our members could have been a bit nicer to you.I was so very wrong.You have shown yourself to be a very rude person.I'm not sure if it has something to do with living in Brentwood that makes you feel are above everyone else's social standards.I would consider my own snobbish comments before speaking of others.


Resonable people do not waste their life savings on a dog. The truth hurts sometimes. 
When I think of a snob I think of breeders who don't sell Christmas puppies or breeders who will not let new owners choose their puppy. I think of dog owners who will not own anything but a champion sired purebred. I don't think of me selling $200 golden doodles (example only) as being a snob.


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## Jellybean's mom (Jul 6, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> I don't think of me selling $200 golden doodles (example only) as being a snob.


For the first time in this entire thread, you are correct. Selling $200 golden doodles does not make you a snob. It makes you lower than low actually. I'm convinced now that you are truly not worth any of our members' time or effort.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> Resonable people do not waste their life savings on a dog. The truth hurts sometimes.
> When I think of a snob I think of breeders who don't sell Christmas puppies or breeders who will not let new owners choose their puppy. I think of dog owners who will not own anything but a champion sired purebred. I don't think of me selling $200 golden doodles (example only) as being a snob.


Honestly, I could have quoted any of your responses, but this just happened to be the last one. If it wasn't obvious before, it certainly is now that you are purposely attempting to be antagonistic and start arguments. Why else would someone sign on to a site that is devoted to purebred dogs and throw out the possibility of them selling golden doodles... even if it WAS only an example, it was obviously a carefully chosen example designed to get a rise out of people. There have been numerous people who have stated sound reasons why breeders would not want to place a puppy at Christmas time, but you're not interested in hearing it. You would rather just sit back and prove how "knowledgable" you are by claiming you too can breed your puppy. I'm sorry, but I do NOT believe that simply owning a dog is a good enough reason to breed it! I tried offering you some honest advice earlier about having your dog evaluated for conformation, but you don't want to hear any information so you say I'm suggesting you will be flying all over the nation and paying a handler (after you already clearly said your daughter would be showing the dog and I aknowledged it in my post). You have been here about a week and have managed to alienate just about every member of this board, including the people who originally were defending you. What is the point? And by the way, who do you think is going to be instructing your daughter at these classes, particularly the conformation handling class. Chances are it is going to be someone who is VERY knowledgable and likely breeds dogs (although not necessarily golden retrievers). Will you encourage your daughter to tell them at every turn that they are wrong and she is right? Will you sit in on the classes and do it yourself? Or will you allow your daughter to learn from these people? When you go to shows will you tell everyone what snobs they are for being proud of their championship lines? Or will you compliment them on how beautiful their dog is? I have a feeling that you would not dare to treat people face to face the way you have in this forum. And if I'm wrong, then my best wishes to your daughter as she finds herself alienated from the people she has to work with, thanks to her father.

Julie and Jersey


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

The term "Don't Feed the Trolls" comes to mind. There comes a time when you just have to stop responding.
:wavey:

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## kwikrnu (Dec 2, 2007)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Honestly, I could have quoted any of your responses, but this just happened to be the last one. If it wasn't obvious before, it certainly is now that you are purposely attempting to be antagonistic and start arguments. Why else would someone sign on to a site that is devoted to purebred dogs and throw out the possibility of them selling golden doodles... even if it WAS only an example, it was obviously a carefully chosen example designed to get a rise out of people. There have been numerous people who have stated sound reasons why breeders would not want to place a puppy at Christmas time, but you're not interested in hearing it. You would rather just sit back and prove how "knowledgable" you are by claiming you too can breed your puppy. I'm sorry, but I do NOT believe that simply owning a dog is a good enough reason to breed it! I tried offering you some honest advice earlier about having your dog evaluated for conformation, but you don't want to hear any information so you say I'm suggesting you will be flying all over the nation and paying a handler (after you already clearly said your daughter would be showing the dog and I aknowledged it in my post). You have been here about a week and have managed to alienate just about every member of this board, including the people who originally were defending you. What is the point? And by the way, who do you think is going to be instructing your daughter at these classes, particularly the conformation handling class. Chances are it is going to be someone who is VERY knowledgable and likely breeds dogs (although not necessarily golden retrievers). Will you encourage your daughter to tell them at every turn that they are wrong and she is right? Will you sit in on the classes and do it yourself? Or will you allow your daughter to learn from these people? When you go to shows will you tell everyone what snobs they are for being proud of their championship lines? Or will you compliment them on how beautiful their dog is? I have a feeling that you would not dare to treat people face to face the way you have in this forum. And if I'm wrong, then my best wishes to your daughter as she finds herself alienated from the people she has to work with, thanks to her father.
> 
> Julie and Jersey


There is no real good reason IMO to have a dog evaluated if it is not good quality. What advantage is there to me? I've already looked at the event near atlanta next april. 
I've never been to a local dog club before. If they give breeding speeches to my daughter during training instead of showing her how to train then yes I will be against that. 

With 70,000 golden retriever puppies registered every year with the akc only you guys need to focus your frustration on someone else.


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> We are not planning on traveling around the country. There are local dog shows and entry is about the cost of dinner at a normal restaurant. Plus, we have local dog club classes and it would do the pup good to get some training along with my daughter. I would consider a significant loss of money sending the dog cross country to a handler who would keep and show the dog for months to try and get enough points to become a champion she'll never be.
> I have taken a few dogs to shelters in the past. They were dogs my wife found in the street. They weren't _our_ dogs. This puppy is ours so it won't go to the shelter if something is wrong with it. If the problem is serious or costly enough she'll be euthanized but short of that she'll be fixed. Those who would use their life savings to save a dog are nuts. We'll go one further we're not paying over $3000 to a vet to fix a single problem with the dog, that is just stupid IMO.


I must now say something to you, since your replies have taken over my thread.

1. I think it is wonderful to get your daughter invloved in showing a dog. That is a great thing for a child to do, especially starting out in something like 4-H clubs, all the training will do her & your family a great deal. Plus the bond that happens with the animal when you do this is GREAT!

2. To say you will put down your dog IF something were to costs over $3000 is just wrong. There are rescues out there that will take in the dog for you and have whatever problem fixed, but to end it's life because of money is wrong! If it is something that the dog will live out it's life in pain, then yes put it down, but if it is something that it can have fixed and live a long happy life, no, give it a chance to live..

I just hope you will re-consider your options IF they were ever to present them to you with ANY animal...

3. We are ALL here to learn from each other in this crazy world so why not think about what some have said and learn from it. 
I give tons of advise on training and rescue issues and some give advise on breeding & showing. We are ALL VERY Passionate at what we do! 
So, PLEASE, let's STOP with name calling, flaming, etc... and LEARN from ALL of this advise....I know I have!

Kerri


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Having a productive discussion with KwikLube is impossible. It's a circle jerk. Not knowing the breeder means that the breeder could care less about the puppies he or she is producing. No one who purposely breeds dogs, living creatures who do not ask to be born, but rather are the result of human manipulation, should be so callous and uncaring as to not want the best for them. Not knowing the kind of home, or people in that home, is in no way caring about those puppies. And placing a puppy that may well not fit into that home is at best unfair to both puppy and human. Counting on nothing more than being able to check the OFA site for clearances is naive, at best, because so much more should go into a breeding - not the least being generations of sound temperament as well as health clearances. 
What someone else chooses to do with their savings, is their business, and if they choose to use it for treatment necessary for the comfort and well-being of a dog that they have committed to bringing into their family, who are you to say that it is "un-wise" or stupid...
I myself do not count on the government for anything, as regards my retirement or otherwise. I work hard for my money, given that same government much more of it than I should have to, but but that's the law.I find it insulting and presumptuos of you to even suggest that, to people who you do not know, nor do you know their personal financial circumstances. 


I suppose that in an instance such as yours, I could say that I am glad that there are back-yard breeders who don't care who gets their puppies, whether they are healthy or not, or if after they have a check in their hand they consider themselvs absolved of all responsibility so that people like yourself don't mistakenly get a dog that deserves much better. But, as I do care about the dogs, I'm not willing to compromise my beliefs - I still find it distasteful at best, and irresponsible and unethical at worst, to produce dogs that way.

I am of the opinion, since manners and simple consideration have no bearaing on what you have posted here, that you are a jerk.


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## Farley Rocks! (Nov 15, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> Resonable people do not waste their life savings on a dog. The truth hurts sometimes.
> When I think of a snob I think of breeders who don't sell Christmas puppies or breeders who will not let new owners choose their puppy. I think of dog owners who will not own anything but a champion sired purebred. I don't think of me selling $200 golden doodles (example only) as being a snob.


Resonable people do not judge or give titles to others based on one factor in their lives. You have based your opinions on emotion and not fact and refuse to alter them when logical explanations are presented. You seem to WANT to have a negative attitude toward practices different then yours and enjoy the banter and insults flung about. You present a sense of pride for your willful ignorance. 
I would say the vast majority of people on this site...breeders included have and do own mutts, foster dogs, etc and would not be classified by most as snobs. I really do think you should get off your soapbox and start communicating like an adult.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> I don't think of me selling $200 golden doodles (example only) as being a snob.


You know Goldendoodles can go for like $1500 - $2500


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

kwikrnu said:


> Resonable people do not waste their life savings on a dog. The truth hurts sometimes.
> When I think of a snob I think of breeders who don't sell Christmas puppies or breeders who will not let new owners choose their puppy. I think of dog owners who will not own anything but a champion sired purebred. I don't think of me selling $200 golden doodles (example only) as being a snob.


I have 3 goldens.None of which were champion sired.All 3 are with me today because someone thought they wanted a puppy and the price was right.They later decided not to waste their money caring for a dog.If you don't wish to waste your money on your dog then go ahead and post your "free to good home ad".I'm sorry if this seems very bitchy but you saying things about wasting money on a dog just really pisses me off.You knew it would though didn't you?I personally am pretty much done with this.I can now see that you have just been baiting us.You never had any intention of friendly conversation.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> I am of the opinion, since manners and simple consideration have no bearing on what you have posted here, that you are a jerk.


I had a different term pop into my head but that one works too!:curtain:


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

arcane said:


> I had a different term pop into my head but that one works too!:curtain:


Yeah, well, I counted to ten before posting.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Me three :wavey:


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

anyone else in favor of this thread closing? as entertaining as it has been (you know in a train wreck kind of way, you just have to keep looking..) it is getting to the point where the same things are being said over and over, and i think it will have to stand as an agree to disagree type thing and everyone needs to go to their corners. 

Kwik, you are a jerk though, i suggest if you plan to keep frequenting this forum that you watch your mouth and stop antagonizing everyone on here for being passionate about the thing that brought us all together in the first place.

all in favor of this thread being done, say aye. AYE!!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I considered doing this all day... yours is not the first request to close it. Done!


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