# Looking for advice....



## mikew6ss (Jul 11, 2017)

Have a 13 month old english creme retriever. 

She is part of a loving household - we had a chocolate lab that we put down at 13 at it took us two years to have another dog. 

As a puppy (at 8 weeks old), Scout was a little tempermental - when we picked her up she would growl and snap occasionally. We had a dog trainer come to the house and gave us advice which included 'pinning' aggressive type behavior (we had several opinions on this that agreed). We have worked with her to socialize (walks downtown, play with other dogs, various experiences). She developed nicely until about two months ago, when my wife left for work and Scout was lying by the door. I was going outside and went to pet her and she showed her teeth at me. I ignored and walked past her. After a bit, I called her and she came to me but when I went to pet her, she showed her teeth and I immediately pinned her. She appeared frightened prior to this - anyway, when I let up on the pin she snapped and bit my hand severely resulting in an ER visit. Let me preface all of this - Scout has never been mistreated in any way, shape, or form. 

We subsequently talked to the vet and upon recommendation of vet and several colleagues, had her go to a dog behaviorist who kept scout for a week and worked with her together with several animals. He is well respected by many as the best dog trainer interventionist in our region/state. Upon picking her up, he did not feel that it was aggression (or an issue that she needed to be put down), but that her behavior was highly uncommon for this breed, and was being reinforced by our interaction with her (that is reinforced by her showing teeth and us responding by pulling away etc - she becomes the alpha in the relationship). He indicated that it required training and changing of our behavior to assist this - he was questioning whether she was rejected by mother in litter or is he said, sometimes a dog's wiring is off.... Her behavior improved after we brought her home, but recently is picking back up again. She shows teeth and appears frightened at various times in our house (she will go from playful to scared - with tail down, ears down). We have learned to just ignore. She has shown teeth (not bitten) at each of our four older children - they/we are tired of it.....We are going to consider med's after another vet visit - the vet is not optimistic. It all seems anxiety based, the episodes are predictable (mid morning fear; or if only one person is in the house).

We love the dog, but are very concerned when we have family over or neighbors etc. The odd thing, outside, she is very loving, playful, and show none of the fears/reactions to people that I am describing. I have searched for any similar scenarios online, and nothing. We have talked to breeder - no help. 

Just looking for any thoughts here - anyone experience this? I have seen articles on canine rage syndrome, but don't really consider it 'rage'. Bizarre is the best word to describe her behavior. We are simply looking for ideas and support - professionals are beginning to talk putting her down - we cannot fathom this....

Thanks in advance


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

I would have her thoroughly checked over by a Veterinarian as well as a full thyroid panel run. If the Vet can't find anything physically wrong, (hearing, vision, etc,) I would cut my losses and put her down before she seriously hurts somebody.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Oh my- that is an awful story. 
You've seen enough pros to not question your interpretation of her behavior -...to me dogs who have no bite inhibition without true agression are painful or have a chemical issue. I wonder if she has had a full vet workup to try to determine if she is painful. She should also have a T4 and free thyroid done- both of them- and if none of that shows a reason for her behavior, if she were mine I would see a neurologist. It may be that you don't want to invest the money in an MRI and neurological workup but it is so unusual that something must be wrong somewhere and if only for the children's peace and understanding, learning what the problem is seems important. Does the breeder want her back? Does your contract have provisions or requirements for returning her to the breeder? Most good breeders would want to have her back . I would think that would be a better solution than euthanizing for your kids and for the dog. The responsibility for what the dog does downline would then be on the breeder and her choices, rather than the either/or of your family having to euthanize her. If that isn't an option, I too would not have a dog whose bite inhibition is lacking in the house with children. Euthanasia is sometimes the only option. It's the piece of the kids that is always a problem w euthanizing for behavior- kids internalize ideas on some level and even if they understand it young kids may see it as getting killed for being bad.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

This article may give you some insight as to why your puppy is behaving the way she is:

What “alpha rolling” is really doing to your dog — RespectYourDog.Com


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Here's what I think based on your post.... and my assumption that she's been thoroughly checked out for health issues (epilepsy comes to mind - which is what rage syndrome tends to be related to)....

You do not have a perfect golden retriever. 

She has issues. 

She probably is fear aggressive.

She probably has some kind of behavioral glitch - perhaps along the lines that she's learned a behavior that gets you, or more specifically your kids, to back off.

Dogs who have been harassed too much as puppies may develop this behavior. I've seen it with a yorkie owned by a friend who hosted a summer camp. 

The week started with the puppy happily curling up in the arms of anyone who wanted to hold him. To him hiding in the crawl space beneath the house (completely scary for his owners) and snapping and growling at anyone who came near him because they would not leave him alone. 

Your pup very likely learned that baring her teeth gets you to back off. 

My thought is... there should be give and take with dog ownership. 

Your kids should be lined up and given a talk about LEAVING THE DOG ALONE. Respecting her space. Letting her come to them and not trying to grab or confine her. 

You and your spouse meanwhile need to build a relationship with the dog that gives her security and confidence. Balanced dog training. Train her to love your hands. 

Your hands reaching for her should never be connected with punishment. Soft or insecure dogs should never pinned at random by owners. Because it's a guarantee that she'll go from baring her teeth to snapping at hands. Or perhaps this has already happened. 

You need to train her to be relaxed and comfortable in your space. 

And again go back to my first point. You do not have a perfect golden retriever. You will not suddenly have a dog who is bomb proof. I think for a lot of people - this is the biggest issue. Because they have a square cube that they are trying to squash into a circular opening. 

The dog's temperament is off. So what. Your job now is learning how to live with her. And get her so she's not snarling every time you go near her.

***alpha pins have their time and space in dog training, but there are rules that the trainer needs to follow + they need to read the dog. 

Even in nature when you have a dog fixated on pinning younger dogs for any reason - it has a negative effect on the young dogs. I've seen a golden who was pinned by a friend's dog too much during a fear stage, and wasn't too surprised when the younger dog became fear aggressive towards other dogs.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

This post makes me so sad in so many ways.

To summarize:

1. As a pup, the dog would occasionally growl or snap when picked up. When this happened, the human response (upon the advice of a trainer) was to pin her to the ground.
2. The dog has since growled at most of the family members from time to time, and the human response has usually been to back away, and sometimes to pin her to the ground.
3. Most if not all of these incidents have been in the house.
4. The dog regularly seems nervous or afraid when in the house.
5. The dog is not anxious or fearful outside the house.
6. In the recent biting incident, the dog growled at the human, who backed off, then called the dog over and tried to pet the dog. The dog showed her teeth and the human pinned her to the ground. When released, the dog bit and seriously injured the human.

First, there is a very large consensus nowadays, among most competent trainers, that pinning dogs to the ground in response to aggression (the "alpha roll") will often make the aggression worse, not better (see the link posted above). Growling can be a sign of anxiety or fear, and pinning will just make the dog more anxious or afraid, not less. This dog's story seems to be pretty much a textbook description of what happens when people use the alpha roll incorrectly on a "soft" or anxious dog, and cause the dog's fear/anxiety response to escalate. I think the OP got a lot of very poor advice from his trainer, and apparently from other people too, when the dog was a pup.

Second, the post doesn't mention that the dog and family went to any type of training together: puppy class, obedience training, remedial training, etc. Basic obedience training helps set the tone for the dog-human relationship and is, IMHO, essential when you bring a pup into the house. This dog was sent away to a behaviourist for training when the problem first arose, but the family members themselves weren't trained. If you want to deal with a problem, the dog and the humans need to be trained, together. In this particular situation, the dog isn't the only problem: the human family is also part of the equation.

Third, you need to ask yourself why the dog regularly shows fear in the house. From the dog's standpoint, and especially if the dog has a softer personality, as seems to be the case here, from your description, then the "pinning" action is probably seen as an aggressive attack by a human being. If she thinks she's done something that might provoke this type of attack, she's going to be frightened. The house should be a safe haven for your dog - it's her home too. And she should be able to trust her human family absolutely. For your dog, this simply doesn't appear to be the case. You describe her as being more relaxed and happier outdoors, which is telling.

And fourth, the bite didn't come out of the blue: this dog has been growling and lifting her lips at humans for almost a year. A growl is a warning; if the humans don't react appropriately, the growling will escalate into biting, and that is what has happened. IMHO medicating your dog isn't going to solve the problem here. It might mask the symptoms for a while, but the dog has bitten now, and will do so again if put in the same situation by the same people. 

This is such a sad situation for both you and your dog, and I'm very sorry for everyone concerned. It's certainly not something you're going to be able to resolve with advice from the Internet - you really need someone who can observe what's happening. I'd suggest finding a trainer who has kept up-to-date on modern training methods, who is experienced with aggression issues, and who will work with both you and the dog, to see what, if anything, can be done. 

I hope you can find someone competent who will work with you and I wish you the best of luck.


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## mikew6ss (Jul 11, 2017)

Thank you everyone for quick and thoughtful replies. We so appreciate feedback. Some clarification......

Our children are ages 16 and up and have been very responsive to us and the trainers work and recommendations.

She has had full blood work up with Vet and we have been in close contact with them. No health issues or pain - curious about seizures?

We are not alpha pinning her per recommendation of dog training (recall she bit my hand - deep puncture wound)

We have corresponded with breeder - initially responsive, no longer returns any requests.

I agree with poster that indicated this is fear aggression (what she is fearful of, have no clue), but she can turn on a dime of playful to scared.

We understand our responsibility as dog owners to do all that we can to help our dog. We feel, with increasing certainty, that she is going to bite someone and then we have no choice but to put her down. 

The dog trainer that had Scout for 8 days (conversation with him yesterday) feels strongly that this is chemical and 'unfortunate' and not optimistic given recent increase in behavior (probably 1-3 times per day of showing teeth and acting fearful). If this is anxiety based, would medication not help??

We are doing everything possible to help her. We have taken her on vacations, she is so well behaved and fun - but as a family, we are completely perplexed with this and at a loss. Thank you again to all - this has been a great help!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Specifically ask if a free T and T4 were done. Most vets would of course do a CBC chem but thyroid might not enter the mind when thinking of behavior issues. It's one of those things that people in the dog world rather than medical world would think of first because we see it and it's not interesting enough for anyone to research ...
Working with the vet, I would ask for a full discovery appointment- one in which the vet examines every motion, all the joints, etc, and especially whatever position she is in when she is pinned and right before she bit you. 


When you said you pinned her, I'm not sure what you meant, if not the alpha pin. 

I'm glad your children are not very young, it removes the fear that they will be confused if she disappears. Teens can have their own set of behaviors that dogs find upsetting sometimes. I'm so sorry you're going through this, and I am sorrier that she is- think about how bad it would feel to bite the hand that feeds you. When she was 2-4 months old, did she go through a sharky phase, and if she did, how did you all handle it? Has she had structured classes (I don't ask that re: learning to sit- dogs learn lots in class, but mostly who is their partner and ally in life). Biting is hard. It's a behavior that all puppies experiment with, nipping and such, but one that must be nipped in the bud when they are young and they still forget sometimes, but that sort of biting is not preceded by showing of teeth and display of aggressive behavior. Where are you located?


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## Siandvm (Jun 22, 2016)

I agree with everything that has been said here. I would add that it might be helpful to go to a veterinary behaviorist at this point. They should have the strongest handle on medical issues which may be contributory, medication which may help, nad trainers who use appropriate methods to deal with this. They will also be able to give you the most educated opinion on whether this can be dealt with whilst keeping people's safety paramount. If you have a veterinary school nearby, they will most likely have a behavior department. Otherwise, you can visit the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists at ACVB and search for one near you. 

I am so sorry that you and she are going through this.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

What part of the country do you live in? Anywhere near TX?


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

My heart goes out to you and to the dog. I don't have much to add to what has already been suggested. I did want to emphasize that until you all have worked through this one way or another that I hope that you take absolutely zero chances with visiting friends or neighbors. She should be crated before anyone steps foot in your house. She is clearly a risk to both adults and children and as upset as you feel now, it would be 100 times worse if she bit a guest. 

I'm sorry you've not had much help from the breeder. A good breeder should have taken this dog back to evaluate the situation and arrive at a good decision for the dog.


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## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

mikew6ss said:


> Have a 13 month old english creme retriever.
> 
> . I ignored and walked past her. After a bit, I called her and she came to me but when I went to pet her, *she showed her teeth and I immediately pinned her*. She appeared frightened prior to this - anyway, when I let up on the pin she snapped and bit my hand severely resulting in an ER visit.




First off, I am super sorry you're dealing with this. I also agree she should be crated when any guest come over. I do want to agree that the pinning isn't an effective training tool. I know lots think it still is, but in your scenario above, your dog showed her teeth(warning- leave me alone, I hurt, whatever her reason) and the reaction was to eliminate her voice by pinning- thus causing her to bite. Animals cannot communicate with words, so these signs(growling, teeth showing, body language) are their only ways to communicate. I cannot see how in any circumstance taking that way could be good. Also, most of us(LOL), wouldn't dream of pinning our mouthy kid to the ground to get them to comply, but we need some sort of alpha status when it comes to our pets. Obviously, kids and dogs aren't the same- but sometimes being gentle and patient and using effective methods to gain trust goes a long, long way. 


I hope you can find a trainer who can help you all overcome this- and if this isn't something medical you all can work together for a happy, healthy, pup!


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## mikew6ss (Jul 11, 2017)

Thank you everyone for input.

Re: pinning - yes, it was upon recommendation of what we thought were knowledgeable people - and yes it was wrong. And I and the dog paid the price for that interaction. That has not, nor will it, occur again. I am simply trying to be honest here and list things that happened that could be contributing to this behavior. She has not tried to bite since this occurred, but certainly she gives clear warning signs.

We have a beautiful dog here who is wired differently and certainly her behavior is not typical for this breed. We are working through all systems of support to give her a great life. Behavior is communication - figuring out what she is telling us, it what we are working through at current. 

Was uncertain whether this forum would be helpful with a very unique situation, and it certainly has been - thank you everyone for your concern and advice. Lots of great ideas here.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Mike... our first golden had his glitches, same as your dog. 

He did have kidney problems - unsure if those had anything to do with his touchiness. 

We loved that dog.

He only lived 6 years, but he was treasured all those years. 

There were 6 of us kids at the time + three of us were under ten when my parents brought him home. He was primarily "our" dog. My parents wanted nothing to do with the training or care. It was our responsibility, every bit. My parents paid the bills. And got to love him, but otherwise... 

He taught us a lot of things... as every dog will teach his owners. Every dog after him was easier, so every moment was worth it because if it weren't for him, we would not have the three dogs we have today.

He snarled, snapped, growled, etc... a lot.

The youngest kids (3 and 5 years old when he came home with us) were trained how to behave around him and how to "respect" his space. He never bit them ever. 

Only person he bit was me - and that was his last week of life when he was in a lot of pain. 

^^^ He's the reason why I do think that the hard work is worth doing. And you just learn to live with the dog you have. And completely recommend giving dog training and and more importantly, people training, a try.

This dog was my dog. He slept next to my bed. Most nights he slept with me dangling an arm down to make sure he was still there - right through his last night. We could not talk about him for 20+ years without crying over losing him. That does tell you what a special dog he was. Even though he was broken in some ways. As I told you - so what. Learn how to deal with the dog you have.


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## Otter (Feb 23, 2011)

mikew6ss said:


> We have a beautiful dog here *who is wired differently* and certainly her behavior is *not typical for this breed*. We are working through all systems of support to give her a great life. Behavior is communication - figuring out what she is telling us, it what we are working through at current.


Mike. I have nothing to add to what the much more experienced people have posted. I just wanted to say I was happy to read the above that you posted. Try not to give up on her.

Your description of her behavior is very very similar to our Barkley, although he has never bitten us. He did go after Pebbles when she was a puppy and bit her pretty good. The vet said we were very lucky Barkley didn't kill her and that he had the restraint not to.

I've always said Barkley is wired different. Something is off in his little brain. He is not your typical Golden. He's been to a lot of different trainers over the years. Some, I think made things worse.

He used to growl and snap at my wife. Never bit her though. Broke our hearts. Bottom line is we continued to work with him, learn his body language, learned what he is and is not comfortable with (I think he is very insecure), and continue to manage the situation the best we can. He is getting older and more mellow, but I still won't let kids or other dogs come up to him. We have to watch him carefully still.

When he was a pup, the breeder (now a friend) said she would take him back. Couldn't do it. I had thought many times about giving him up to somebody who lived on a farm so he could be alone with out kids and others dogs. Glad I never did. He's a PITA at times, but we still love him.

I hope you are able to continue working with your girl. Hope things work out for all.

Good luck.


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## mikew6ss (Jul 11, 2017)

Puddles = we are in Michigan


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Thank you. I wish you good things for the path you have chosen and hope you will provide updates on how it is going. As in all things in life... two steps forward, one step back 
Some days are just going to be better than others. Be patient - safe!

IMHO she feels trapped in the house... does better outside as she feels she has a way to escape.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

mikew6ss said:


> Puddles = we are in Michigan


Where in MI....? If you don't mind me asking?

***If close to my area, I could possibly recommend somebody who could help you problem solve aggression issues, although she does not take aggressive dogs into group classes. She does privates though, assuming your dog primarily has anxiety and insecurity issues.... She might be able to chat with you over the phone and point you in the right direction. A good chunk of dog training relies on reading and understanding your dog. This person could help you with that.

Also, I could talk to the lady I do privates with currently and see if she has any connections.

Both people are golden retriever people. 

It really depends on where you are here in MI.


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## mikew6ss (Jul 11, 2017)

Everyone - just wanted to update on our Scout. We greatly appreciated everyone's input! We have had a tremendous turn around with Scout. We have not had any teeth showing or growling for several months now. She has been incredibly responsive and less fearful (if at all). I cannot explain it, other than we have been as consistent as possible with daily routines. I have not seen any of the behavior I wrote about! I say all of this cautiously because dog behavior can change, but we are thrilled with her and where we are at with her in our home. Just wanted to update people - we thank everyone for your thoughtful and caring responses. This site has been a great source of support! Best to everyone......


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## Otter (Feb 23, 2011)

Great news. Thanks for the update.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

mikew6ss said:


> Puddles = we are in Michigan


Please ask your vet for a referral to a certified veterinary behaviorist for an evaluation. I think that evaluation would be invaluable, and the Vet Behaviorist would be able to refer you to an appropriate trainer.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

mikew6ss said:


> Everyone - just wanted to update on our Scout. We greatly appreciated everyone's input! We have had a tremendous turn around with Scout. We have not had any teeth showing or growling for several months now. She has been incredibly responsive and less fearful (if at all). I cannot explain it, other than we have been as consistent as possible with daily routines. I have not seen any of the behavior I wrote about! I say all of this cautiously because dog behavior can change, but we are thrilled with her and where we are at with her in our home. Just wanted to update people - we thank everyone for your thoughtful and caring responses. This site has been a great source of support! Best to everyone......


I'm so glad to hear this good news. Sometimes changing your approach is life changing for the dog. Well done!


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