# Two more litters from White Oak Golden Retrievers



## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

:--appalled::--sad::vomit:I have all three reactions for those poor dogs and the people that will buy the puppies. Sad for the owners, appalled that the place hasnt been shut down and sick to my stomach at all the puppies having health problems.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I wonder if a 'don't buy from white oaks' facebook page would get more fans?

Sad that people don't know any better and these creeps can still breed sick dogs.


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## oakleysmommy (Feb 20, 2011)

this makes me sick


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Just post to the FB page... the more who do, mentioning that they are KNOWINGLY and purposely breeding dysplastic dogs, the better. I just did.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I noticed that earlier on some of their dogs had hip clearances and nothing else.... the sad thing is that people like that can talk their way into selling their pups to a P.T. Barnum "sucker." We have a greeder like that in Maine. I saw her at the heart/eye clinic this weekend.. she was proudly displaying her "cream" goldens that are clearly in "guardian" homes. On her website, she has litters listed out of bitches born 11/09!!! The so called stud dogs have hip clearances, one has elbows... but clearly the bitches are too young.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

And the thing is, they are charging an arm and a leg for these sick puppies who will likely need major surgeries that are expensive too. 

Love the 'we cant't do clearances because the dogs can't go under for hip xrays' and 'it's a money grab' lines on the website too. You mean none of the pups should be altered? Is that a concern for just those dogs then? What about vets who will do the xrays without? Why is it a money grab to do clearances but not to charge MORE than the average breeder for poor quality pups with zero clearances and titles on them, just because they're white and people don't think to do their homework?

Will now go bang my head against the wall....


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Do your homework before buying from White Dove Golden Retrievers.

A simple google search brings multiple threads up here. Why aren't people doing any research???


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## Almanac (Jan 26, 2011)

I couldn't post, I think they disabled comments


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Almanac said:


> I couldn't post, I think they disabled comments


You have to click on "Like" at the top, first.


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## Almanac (Jan 26, 2011)

Is there any information on offa or k9 that says he is dysplastic? I can't find any... did they remove him somehow?

I was gonna link it on my post if I could... Was this the person who complained to offa or something and somehow it was removed?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I believe Ragtym captured the originals. Apparently, the owners unknowingly allowed OFA to publish results good or bad. Apparently, they didn't understand that bad results would be published, so they got OFA to remove them. Again, Ragtym knows about that, too.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And if you look on K9 data in "change history" on the given dog, you can see that Ragtym did post the results originally on K9 data. But, when the owners removed the results from OFA, then they were removed from K9 data because now the results couldn't be verified on OFA!! Non owners can put data up as long as it can be verified.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Unfortunately, I didn't capture the originals. I wasn't aware that they could be removed at the time so I didn't think to print screen them.

What I do have is an email from the OFA stating that the ratings were removed for the reason that Sally's Mom said, not because they were incorrect: the owners did not know that checking/initialing the box on the OFA form would allow the publishing of both good or bad results. After the unfavorable ratings were published, the owners contacted the OFA and had them removed. 

I actually put the ratings on these dogs' K9data page the day that I found them but the owner deleted them. I found out that the ratings had been removed from the OFA database when I went back to re-enter the ratings in K9data. I was not able to re-enter them into K9data because the owner of K9data requires strict proof of the rating (for obvious reasons) and I was not able to provide it any longer. You can still see it in the change history for each dog though.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

hehe - I was typing too slow obviously, Sally's mom


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I find the "change history" section very rewarding. Didn't somebody else on this forum capture the hip flunks?


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## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

I have never heard of White Oak until this post today and just looked a their website.
I can not believe what they say about clearances. It's outrageous. The GRCA and local GR clubs should start putting out an official list of breeders who do things like this.
The AKC should stop registering their puppies.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Actually, AKC doesn't care about clearances, just parentage(DNA).


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

*Comment from White Oak on their FB page*

Wow! You stay classy, White Oak...


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

ragtym said:


> Wow! You stay classy White Oak...



I just got done looking at that - WOW.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

She's probably not going to invite me to dinner.:--sad:

(But, no denial re: the breeding )


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## crayola_sky (Jan 18, 2011)

i cant even find the page...did they remove it?


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## crayola_sky (Jan 18, 2011)

oh nvm i found it


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## crayola_sky (Jan 18, 2011)

i sorta found it..but it looks completly different then the image posted and only 7 vs 40ish people like it :s with hardly any comments on the wall..


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> She's probably not going to invite me to dinner.:--sad:
> 
> (But, no denial re: the breeding )


LOL - and I think that you may be off of the Christmas list as well. :--smirk:


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

crayola_sky said:


> i sorta found it..but it looks completly different then the image posted and only 7 vs 40ish people like it :s with hardly any comments on the wall..


That's her "people" page - you want the White Oak Business page: White Oak Golden Retrievers | Facebook


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## crayola_sky (Jan 18, 2011)

that didnt work..just sent me to my 'live feed'. 
i cant BELIVE she'd post that though ...how proffessional of her. 

this is hte only one i could find 
http://www.facebook.com/pages/White-Oak-Golden-Retrievers/131674290217847 (hope its ok to post links if not let me know and ill remove it ASAP)

Those poor dogs, i bet this topic gets hits on google though..save a few people from buying dogs from her.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

crayola_sky said:


> that didnt work..just sent me to my 'live feed'.
> i cant BELIVE she'd post that though ...how proffessional of her.


Hmm..weird. You can try this - do a search for White Oak Golden Retrievers and look for the one that says "local business" under it. That's the one that she posted to.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

They might have it set so that it's not viewable by people in other countries...are you in Canada??


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## crayola_sky (Jan 18, 2011)

Facebook
this is all that comes up..two pages..one is a personal page and the other is a buisness type page with 7 fans.

oh that could be it..i didnt know you could do that. yeah im in canada...i bet thats what it is if you can all see it.
Canada always gets jipped (guess im not missing much in this case)


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More


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## crayola_sky (Jan 18, 2011)

yeah that didnt work either..haha i bet its just the other country thing..:s 
dosnt matter.. its sites like THIS..that help inform and confirm people in chooseing their breeder.

as ive mentiond several times im no where near ready..but i have had two breeders in mind..When i posted in my intro i had someone message me and guess at the two breeders i chose..and confirmed that both were really good and i wouldnt go wrong either way 

Its a shame some people dont find tehse kinda sites before hand.


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## crayola_sky (Jan 18, 2011)

WOOHOOO... i googled the link then 'cached' it.. I cheated the system!!!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I did laugh out loud at the White Oaks response to Laura. The vulgar language attests to how classy these greeders are.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> I did laugh out loud at the White Oaks response to Laura. The vulgar language attests to how classy these greeders are.


I wanna see :-( I can't get on facebook here though somebody do yee old cut n' paste!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I got on it from Laura's link a couple of posts above.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

They are charming.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Makes me just wanna run out and buy up a couple. NOT!


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## kateann1201 (Jan 9, 2011)

Oh my...:--dumbfounded:


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Maybe we can all give them a bad rating in the review section!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Selli-Belle said:


> Maybe we can all give them a bad rating in the review section!


 
I just think that more people need to post that clearances are VITALLY important, and are relatively risk-free to have done.

Seriously - if they had a dog die while under anesthesia for hip rads, there was very likely an underlying condition, such as a cardiac issue...
And it is entirely possible to to do hip/elbow rads without, anyway.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I couldn't figure out how to post on their wall, so I just added a comment. I'm sure there will be some retaliation of some sort, they are such charming people.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

DNL2448 said:


> I couldn't figure out how to post on their wall, so I just added a comment. I'm sure there will be some retaliation of some sort, they are such charming people.


 
You have to click "Like" in the upper right of the page. Then you can post.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

As much as I hated doing that, I did "like" their site, but could not find a place to comment. Maybe I'm just blind...Lack of sleep...Puppy nanny ya know (and, yes I have documents for all clearances!).


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I just think that more people need to post that clearances are VITALLY important, and are relatively risk-free to have done.
> 
> Seriously - if they had a dog die while under anesthesia for hip rads, there was very likely an underlying condition, such as a cardiac issue...
> And it is entirely possible to to do hip/elbow rads without, anyway.



And if the parents aren't healthy enough to go under anesthesia to have an xray, they shouldn't be bred - how fair is that for the puppies who then have to have hip surgeries?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Bender said:


> And if the parents aren't healthy enough to go under anesthesia to have an xray, they shouldn't be bred - how fair is that for the puppies who then have to have hip surgeries?


 
And that would be an excellent point to post on the FB page.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Selli-Belle said:


> Maybe we can all give them a bad rating in the review section!


 
Actually, a whole bunch of entries in the Review section stating that White Oaks rhetoric re: clearances, genetic health, etc is ill-informed and not in the best interest of the breed as a whole and for potential puppy buyers to please check out www.grca.org as well as our our Golden Retriever Forum at www.goldenretrieverforum.com to see the sections on looking for a breeder and puppy would be great!!!!!!!


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Ya know, I just noticed this...

The Health and Diet Information page on White Oak Golden Retrievers cites this page at the bottom: Veterinary medicine - Unilateral Hip Dysplasia, Nutrition, Exercise, and Pain Relief so I decided to take a look at the page. I noticed that White Oak seems to have missed a few key notes on this page.

_1) The author of this page states very specifically that the observations that she has made regarding Hip Dysplasia were clinical and not substantiated by any hard data._

White Oak cites this page as the reasoning behind their breeding decisions. This page is one persons' opinion based on a very limited number of observations. OFA ratings are done by 3 licensed veterinary orthopedists with literally hundreds of thousands of observations in hundreds of different breeds. Who is more likely to be correct? 

_2) Most of her data is based on Giant breeds such as Newfs, not on Golden Retrievers._

Obviously, Goldens are not a Giant breed and don't grow nearly as quickly as Giant breeds. There really isn't a correlation here even though White Oak is trying to make it seem like there is.

_3) The author does say that it may be okay to breed a dog with Unilateral Dysplasia but only if that dog is known to have genetically good hips. BUT, she says that in order to determine this, you must have knowledge of the dogs parents, great grand parents, and the siblings of the affected dog. (She assumes that the Unilateral Dysplasia in these cases was caused by injury, not genetics.)_

It looks like White Oak is using this paragraph as their reasoning for breeding Sampson. I'm guessing they point to it and say that this nice vet says that it's okay to breed my Unilaterally Dysplastic dog because it was an injury, not genetic. Never mind that THREE of their dogs are dysplastic, 2 unilaterally, and one in both hips and also never mind that 2 of them are half-sisters, sired by the same dog. There is also the question as to whether or not Sampson's full sister is dysplastic since she was removed from a breeding program.

White Oak does not know the full genetic history of their dogs so they are not qualified to make the determination as to whether or not their dogs have genetically clear hips.

_4) The author cites a publication which states that the use of anesthesia was unnecessary to successfully do x-rays of large breed dogs. _

Well, that just blows the whole "anesthesia is dangerous, therefore I will not do any type of x-rays for genetic disorders on my dogs" argument, doesn't it?

White Oak can't have it both ways -they are picking and choosing parts of this page to justify their breeding decisions while ignoring the parts are in direct conflict with what they are saying on their Health And Diet Info page.


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## Almanac (Jan 26, 2011)

You can like, post a comment, then unlike (bottom left).


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Other post was too long to add this. 

I still find it funny that their "Puppy Guarantee" says (emphasis is mine):


> White Oak Golden Retrievers guarantees puppy’s “general health” for two weeks after shipment, pickup or delivery and *up to one year of age against severe hip dysplasia/joint dysplasia* that adversely affects the quality of life as a family pet in which case the puppy/dog must have a veterinarian confirmation and *an official OFA preliminary consultation*. A copy of x-ray must be sent to White Oak Golden Retrievers Kennel before the dog is replaced. Vet confirmation must state that he/she feels that the condition is congenital and not the result of an injury, abuse, poor diet, overweight and injury due to over exertion. *If it is determined that the puppy/dog has bad hips/joints by the x-rays, OFA preliminary report*, White Oak Kennel, and our vet, that the condition is “genetic”, the puppy must be returned to us at the owners expense. There are no exceptions


Sooooo...before they will honor their guarantee, the young puppy MUST undergo x-rays eek and have those x-rays sent to OFA for a prelim eek:)?? But, but, x-rays are BAD and OFA is BAD -- right?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

ragtym said:


> Ya know, I just noticed this...
> 
> The Health and Diet Information page on White Oak Golden Retrievers cites this page at the bottom: Veterinary medicine - Unilateral Hip Dysplasia, Nutrition, Exercise, and Pain Relief so I decided to take a look at the page. I noticed that White Oak seems to have missed a few key notes on this page.
> 
> ...


SOMEbody post this!!!!!!!! (they cannot ALL be from me )


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL, will it fit??


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Returning a puppy... yeah even if my dogs legs fell off I wouldn't return him.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Braccarius said:


> Returning a puppy... yeah even if my dogs legs fell off I wouldn't return him.


Well, the next paragraph of said "puppy guarantee" states (again, emphasis mine)


> After all the information has been gathered from the aforementioned sources and *the puppy is returned to White Oak Kennels, we will determine what happens to the puppy (We will not allow a puppy/dog to be in pain. Necessary decisions will be made whether the puppy has to be put to sleep* or can live life here on the farm or can be adopted and live a normal life with another family)


Would you return a puppy to someone who said that they might kill it? Very few people would.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Looks like she figured out how to delete comments - too bad I have a screenshot of hers 

For posterity's sake:


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

If more people would just keep posting, she'll either get tired of deleting, or, she'll take the page down.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well, it was good information while it lasted. Perhaps the word got out to at least a couple people.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Guarantees/warantees that include the return of the pup are ludicrous. But nothing I see on the White Oak page on health and genetics makes any sense to me anyway.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Oh geez, I couldn't remember if it was White Oak or Gap View that wrote about that horrible golden retriever issue, "stifling." It is, of course, White Oak. What in the World is it? And maybe we should start that stifling support group I have been looking for.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Stifling - what White Oak is currently doing to comments on her Facebook page. :


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Stifling - the act of desperately attempting to find even a semblance of bend of stifle in the dogs of your breeding in order for them to be able to walk. :doh:


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I posted! Hopefully more people will too!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Here's what I wrote on their wall. We'll see if it stands:

White Oak knowingly breeds dogs with dysplasia and routinely breeds dogs with incomplete clearances. Look at what the Golden Retriever Club of America says are the bare minimum requirements for a GR breeder and see if White Oak measures up:

Golden Retriever Club of America - All About Goldens


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## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

I just looked at their facebook page and they have deleted all posts after January 22, 2011.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

kfayard said:


> I posted! Hopefully more people will too!


I think they already pulled yours, 'cause I don't see it.


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## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

To Tippykayak. I just went back and yours is there... It will be interesting to see how long it stays up.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

That stifle angulation looks like an ACL waiting to happen!!!


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Mine, Laura's, and someone else's is under the reviews!! Have not figured out yet how to post on the wall.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I put my comments on the reviews too. I wonder if they can edit there.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Here's one from my neck of the woods, very similar to White Oak: www.goldenridgekennels.com. Apparently those creams are $2000- $2500 without parent clearances.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

My neck of the woods too-right across the river...she is very proud of her "Euros".



Sally's Mom said:


> Here's one from my neck of the woods, very similar to White Oak: www.goldenridgekennels.com. Apparently those creams are $2000- $2500 without parent clearances.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Aaaaaaand, my comment's gone. It lasted almost 20 minutes.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

It really wouldn't hurt to post re: their Golden Doodle Department, and the GRCA's stance on doodles...
(with a bonus re: "white" GR's...)

Golden Retriever Club of America - All About Goldens


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> Here's one from my neck of the woods, very similar to White Oak: www.goldenridgekennels.com. Apparently those creams are $2000- $2500 without parent clearances.


Looks like some dogs have _some_ clearances. Not complete by any means, but White Oak holds a special place in my mind for breeding dogs with failed clearances.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Saw those precious Euros at the eye/heart clinic last weekend. I think they suffer from "stifling."


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I entered a bunch of those dogs on K9 data(from OFA) and really only Bentley and Landon have hip clearances. Landon has a CHIC #, I think. Could not find a hip clearance on most of the bitches who have pups, because several are 11/09 models. And for all we know, they might have failed clearances because of the absence of clearances....


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

So, I looked at the White Oak Website again and this is what it says: 
*Welcome to White Oak Golden Retrievers
Breeders of British, English, White, European, Platinum, 
Cream and American Red Golden Retrievers. 
AKC*


Really?? I did not know Goldens come in such a wide variety of colors? Platinum?? Really?? haha....but it is really not funny at all!


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## oakleysmommy (Feb 20, 2011)

platinum???? what a joke


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Hmmm...either she blocked her page or she deleted it...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Did they take down their business page? Or did they just block me from seeing it?


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## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

I just checked Facebook. Their name no longer comes up. So I went to their website to get to their facebook page. Here's the new message:

White only shares some profile information with everyone. If you know White, send her a message.

Nothing else is there. They basically took their page off......


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

rhondas said:


> I just checked Facebook. Their name no longer comes up. So I went to their website to get to their facebook page. Here's the new message:
> 
> White only shares some profile information with everyone. If you know White, send her a message.
> 
> Nothing else is there. They basically took their page off......


Yeah - that page was already there. They have a profile (as if they're a person) that you can friend, and they have (had?) a business page that you can "like."


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

The entire Facebook portion has been made "private". Nobody can post any longer to that page.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

She's removed it - I have a direct link to it and it redirects back to your home page now. I'm guessing she will put it up again under a different name at some point.


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## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

I thought folks would like to know that White Oak Golden Retrievers are up and running on Facebook once again.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I can't find it. Do you think they've blocked me?


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

It's not up for me either, and I never posted on there. It still only by request only.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Rainheart said:


> It's not up for me either, and I never posted on there. It still only by request only.


 
White Oak Golden Retrievers | Facebook


It's a different page - it says website.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

And....she's pulled the page down again.


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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

I managed to get one more post in yesterday, then I checked today and yeah....its down....lol


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## ggal (Nov 15, 2010)

There is a blog now.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

There are actually a whole bunch of blogs. It looks like they have at least a rudimentary account on all or almost all the popular blog and social networking sites.


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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

So I can thank white oak for making me create a twitter account to leave a comment, but I cant figure it out...lol


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## cprcheetah (Apr 26, 2009)

OMG this just makes me sick! Someone intentionally breeding dysplastic dogs? Shellie has dysplasia, she's a rescue so I don't know her pedigree, but to think someone KNOWS their dogs are dysplastic and breeds them anyways? Makes me seriously sick!


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## hanksmemory (Jul 17, 2011)

ragtym said:


> Wow! You stay classy, White Oak...


 
OH. MY. GOD! White Oak is near me in WV. They were the first breeders I called after we lost our Hank to cancer earlier this year. I'm so glad I went with my instincts and stayed away from them after reading this thread. I cannot believe I poured my heart out to this woman about our Hank (who we bought from a backyard breeder not knowing any better and then ended up battling severe health problems for his entire life until we lost him to lymphoma). She was so sympathetic but now I know she probably just wanted my money! So disgusting!!!!!


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