# Benjamin Irving Goldens or Pam Berry



## Drfuzz (Jan 27, 2017)

Hi
I came across advertisements re puppies in California being offered by Benjamin Irving Goldens https://benjaminirvinggoldens.com and by Pam Berry and her Bentleys Perfect Gentleman of Golden Hills.
I am still learning the intricacies of choosing a Breeder and as such would appreciate some assistance in verifying the quality of these breeders please.
Thanks!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

The sire of the litter Benjaminirving Goldens has is WAAAY overdue his eyes- they sent in the 2010 one to OFA for verification and listing, but no more since. K9data says 2010-2014. The dam is overdue as well, but not nearly so very overdue.

The second litter - dam has PH- her DI are .51 and .41. Her eyes are out of date. The stud dog they are using has not got any OFA record. 

I think I remember Pam Berry's name from this forum- maybe do a search?


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## Drfuzz (Jan 27, 2017)

Thank you very much, appreciate it.
I tried searching for Pam Berry but didnt find much, will try again.
Thanks!


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## wsaunders1014 (Dec 15, 2017)

I came across Benjamin Irving before, as Prism said, I didn't like the lack of info on their dogs, and their asking price is 3000 which is high for a dog with no OFA records and no titles so I passed.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

$3000? That is completely crazy. The dogs aren't even CH! No money or time was invested in titling them in anything, and the clearances aren't complete. When I answered you OP I honestly thought maybe $1200.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

OK- the Pam Berry dog you asked about: Pedigree: Bentley's Perfect Gentleman of Golden Hills here's what I see- incorrect tail set and an owner who posts a horrid photo which tells me that person doesn't know what correct looks like... there is not one title in the 3 generation pedigree, in fact, it is in the 5th gen before there are any titles at all! And those 5 gen titles are very much American dogs- not EC, which is what I would guess he is being touted as. He does have clearances, but his cardiac clearance is inadequate. His dam appears to have failed elbows. His sire appears to have failed hips but they could be PH or BVA and not sent to OFA. Elbows otoh are only done by OFA in this country so the absence of the # for them when the hips are done strongly indicates a failure. 
If you would let us know the dam of the litter -to-be, someone can look that animal up.


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## wsaunders1014 (Dec 15, 2017)

Actually I was mistaken... they want 3500 for English Cream and 2850 for Red Field Goldens


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## Drfuzz (Jan 27, 2017)

O wow that’s steep!!
Thanks for the info!


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## Borrego (Jan 8, 2018)

Hi,

I'm a newby on the forum. Did a lot of research and I would like to get feedback on Benjamin Irving's 2nd litter:

SIRE: MONTEGO ABSOLUTE TRUTH – “TRISTAN- Pedigree: Montego Absolute Truth (AI)

Dam: IABCA NAT & INT CH LAKE COUNTRY SVETA STAR OF YUDITA – “SVETA SUE-http:
//www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=713206
I Understand the eye certificate is form March 2016.

What other concerns would you have with this breed/or questions I should ask?
Thanks a lot!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Tristan's hip scores- https://www.bva.co.uk/uploadedFiles/Content/Canine_Health_Schemes/chs-comparison-of-hd-schemes.pdf He has a 3/4=7- (though the change history on K9data the month prior has different #s- 9/23/2015 1:40:33 AM:
Modified by Karen Vowell
HipID="4/5:9", HipRegistry="BVA", 
and on a comparison between OFA and that set would make him borderline. Because there is no way to verify this independently, and because this paperwork is easily altered, the dog was only 10 months old when he got whatever numbers he got (so prob was evaluated at 9 months) I would be a bit fearful of him hip-wise. He might actually have OFA heart and eyes, but we can't know that because the owner didn't mail them in. 
That alone for me would be too risky. If you still want to investigate it, ask for all the eye clearances and the cardiac- and then check online w the ACVO diplomate site to see that the eyes are done by a member, and that they were done w/in the last 12 months... and if anything at all is listed besides normal/normal, check to see whether that condition is a breeders option. And on the heart, check to be sure that the examining vet is an actual cardiologist, not a specialist or practitioner. You may have to make some calls...


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I would not feel comfortable at all with a puppy from this mating. The dam, Sue, has a deficient practitioner heart certification plus the outdated eye exam. Even scarier is the number of siblings that appear to have failed hips or elbows. Her full brother is OFA mild and has grade 3 elbow dysplasia, but they bred him anyway! Elbow dysplasia is graded 1-4 with 4 being the worst. It appears they bred without hip or elbow certifications since his offspring was born 2 months before he turned 2. He was bred to another underage dog whom is mildly dysplastic and those offspring are going on to produce more puppies whom are bred underage and without certifications!

https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1790287


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## Borrego (Jan 8, 2018)

Thank you both so much for the detailed information! I really appreciate!


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## Animallover4099 (May 20, 2018)

*Pam Berry*

Hi there,

These Golden Retrievers are very irresponsibly bred, as I know from experience. I purchased a golden from Berry, and within 5 months of having our amazing puppy, he was diagnosed with severe hip dysplasia. At just 6 months old he was limping after play, and in great pain. We took him to the vet and after extensive (as well as expensive) testing on his hips, he was diagnosed in both with slight osteoporosis in one. Although she claims to have all her dogs to be updated with testing, they are greatly outdated. Thus, I am glad you are doing your research beforehand as I failed to do. Our beloved pup is almost 10 months now, and living the best life he can. We will get him a total hip replacement once he is one years old. I hope this information helps.


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## Benjamin Irving (May 23, 2018)

*Clarifications Regarding Litter*



Drfuzz said:


> Hi
> I came across advertisements re puppies in California being offered by Benjamin Irving Goldens https://benjaminirvinggoldens.com and by Pam Berry and her Bentleys Perfect Gentleman of Golden Hills.
> I am still learning the intricacies of choosing a Breeder and as such would appreciate some assistance in verifying the quality of these breeders please.
> Thanks!


 

Hello this is Benjamin Irving Goldens and we wanted to take a moment to jump into this tread and respond to some concerns and comments that were expressed on this forum regarding our litter of puppies. I will be addressing the different concerns, clearing up some misunderstood information and providing more facts so that there is a better understanding of this litter by posting under each comment that we believe needs clarification.


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## Benjamin Irving (May 23, 2018)

*Clarification Regarding Litter*



Prism Goldens said:


> The sire of the litter Benjaminirving Goldens has is WAAAY overdue his eyes- they sent in the 2010 one to OFA for verification and listing, but no more since. K9data says 2010-2014. The dam is overdue as well, but not nearly so very overdue.
> 
> The second litter - dam has PH- her DI are .51 and .41. Her eyes are out of date. The stud dog they are using has not got any OFA record.
> 
> I think I remember Pam Berry's name from this forum- maybe do a search?


 

The stud dog will not have OFA records as he is from Australia. He does have his clearances from Australia that we did verify to be true and accurate before using him as a stud. 


The dam has had a current eye exam as of 3/18 and there were no issues found. Her PennHip rating stated above is correct and would rate her as having better hips than 60% of dogs tested which is above average. 


OFA and PennHip are not the same animal...they seldom agree, so it is like comparing apples and oranges. Many of the dogs scored with OFA Good hips would find that they would score similar to this dam or possibly worse should they have PennHip scoring done. Example: A female that we purchased was scored Mild with PennHip....OFA sent a Certification for a Good hip. Which was correct?? The agonizing decision was made to have her spade, even though a lot of time and money had been invested, because our first goal is the well being of the puppies.

After having the dam of this litter evaluated by a expert in hips and OFA testing methods, we are confident that these puppies are healthy. As all the breeders commenting on this thread, we do all we can to stack the cards in favor of healthy puppies.


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## Benjamin Irving (May 23, 2018)

*Clearification of Litter*



wsaunders1014 said:


> I came across Benjamin Irving before, as Prism said, I didn't like the lack of info on their dogs, and their asking price is 3000 which is high for a dog with no OFA records and no titles so I passed.




All information is available .... there are OFA records on all the dogs except the stud from Australia, but we do have his health certifications from Australia that are available upon request. The cream dam has a National and International title and both sire and dam have impeccable pedigrees which includes many champions from very reputable kennels in Europe.


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## Benjamin Irving (May 23, 2018)

*Clearification of Litter*



Prism Goldens said:


> $3000? That is completely crazy. The dogs aren't even CH! No money or time was invested in titling them in anything, and the clearances aren't complete. When I answered you OP I honestly thought maybe $1200.




As we stated in response to the previous post, the dam is National and International CH. All clearances are available for review.


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## Benjamin Irving (May 23, 2018)

*Clearification of Litter*



Prism Goldens said:


> Tristan's hip scores- https://www.bva.co.uk/uploadedFiles/Content/Canine_Health_Schemes/chs-comparison-of-hd-schemes.pdf He has a 3/4=7- (though the change history on K9data the month prior has different #s- 9/23/2015 1:40:33 AM:
> Modified by Karen Vowell
> HipID="4/5:9", HipRegistry="BVA",
> and on a comparison between OFA and that set would make him borderline. Because there is no way to verify this independently, and because this paperwork is easily altered, the dog was only 10 months old when he got whatever numbers he got (so prob was evaluated at 9 months) I would be a bit fearful of him hip-wise. He might actually have OFA heart and eyes, but we can't know that because the owner didn't mail them in.
> That alone for me would be too risky. If you still want to investigate it, ask for all the eye clearances and the cardiac- and then check online w the ACVO diplomate site to see that the eyes are done by a member, and that they were done w/in the last 12 months... and if anything at all is listed besides normal/normal, check to see whether that condition is a breeders option. And on the heart, check to be sure that the examining vet is an actual cardiologist, not a specialist or practitioner. You may have to make some calls...



The K9 Data on Tristan was changed a month after the original entry. We contacted Karen Vowell regarding the change and learned that as several dogs information was being posted at that time that another dog's score was recorded in Tristan's information. They caught the mistake a month later and went in to correct it. 


Tristan's hips were ex-rayed on September 18, 2015.....his date of birth is September13, 2014 so this test was done when he was a year old. This is a common practice for breeders to do preliminary testing on a male in order to begin breeding him around fifteen months of age. His hips were scored at 3/4 = 7 What we want to know is how that compares to all the other Goldens with OFA scores. Here is the chart provided by the OFA for our comparison.


 https://www.ofa.org/diseases/hip-dysplasia/hip-international-ratings-matrix



Upon examination you will see that a score of 7 in BVA is equivalent to OFA Good. Caution, when looking at charts be sure you know if it is designed to be used with a combined hip score or for one hip score...using the higher number or the lower rating of the two to determine the correct comparison. Even if you used the score of 9 as mentioned in this post, it would still be equivalent to an OFA score of Good. 


Tristan has Good hips and Normal elbows. His heart was tested by a Veterinary Cardiologist and was found Clear.


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## Benjamin Irving (May 23, 2018)

*Clairification of Litter*



ArchersMom said:


> I would not feel comfortable at all with a puppy from this mating. The dam, Sue, has a deficient practitioner heart certification plus the outdated eye exam. Even scarier is the number of siblings that appear to have failed hips or elbows. Her full brother is OFA mild and has grade 3 elbow dysplasia, but they bred him anyway! Elbow dysplasia is graded 1-4 with 4 being the worst. It appears they bred without hip or elbow certifications since his offspring was born 2 months before he turned 2. He was bred to another underage dog whom is mildly dysplastic and those offspring are going on to produce more puppies whom are bred underage and without certifications!
> 
> https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1790287





The dam, Sue has her heart certification from a Veterinary Cardiologist and her heart is clear. She has a current eye exam and all is clear there as well. 


Dogs in this dam's linage that have OFA records we found four dogs out 50+ that had indication of dysplasia, which means that 92% of her line had Fair to Excellent hips. Most were scored as Good, a few were Fair and some were Excellent. 


The sibling referenced above as having been bred underage, was 20 months old when bred. It is very common for breeders to start breeding a male around 15 months of age. The female was also 20 months or 4 months shy of being two years old. The clearances were done at two years old which was after the fact, leads me to believe this was an unplanned breeding. There is only one offspring that has any OFA records, which is another reason I believe that this was a mishap; for there are no other offspring recorded for this male. If they had continued breeding him, there would have been others.


However, we want to clarify that this male is or has never been our dog, so the breeding situation referred to above should have no reflection or bearing on Benjamin Irving.


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## Benjamin Irving (May 23, 2018)

I believe everyone on this thread has the goal of having a line with no defects, whether they involve the heart, the eyes, the elbows, or the hips. We are all striving to provide puppies that are intelligent, have that wonderful Golden temperament, and are beautiful and healthy....that ideal family pet. The best way to achieve this goal is by supporting one another as breeders and educating each other. So going forward, I am sure that should I have any questions I could reach out to any of you and likewise, feel free to reach out to us. If anyone has any additional questions regarding this litter don't hesitate to ask.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

It is appreciated that you came and made your points- I'm not going to go back through them one by one but if you would spend the $15 to have heart listed on OFA, and $7.50 to have eyes listed, it would not be up for discussion whether they are in place or not. Small dollars to protect your 'investment'.
Because with so much more misinformation stated, there is no way to be sure a cardio did Sue's heart for instance (assuming ArchersMom was correct). You've stated twice that it is common for breeders to use a stud dog at 15 months- that is not true- common means it's done often. There ARE rare boys that the breeder/owner might use on one of their own girls early, but they do finals at 2 of course- and it is in no way common for ethical breeders to do this.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Benjamin Irving said:


> The dam, Sue has her heart certification from a Veterinary Cardiologist and her heart is clear. She has a current eye exam and all is clear there as well.
> 
> 
> Dogs in this dam's linage that have OFA records we found four dogs out 50+ that had indication of dysplasia, which means that 92% of her line had Fair to Excellent hips. Most were scored as Good, a few were Fair and some were Excellent.
> ...


So- Sue JUST got a cardiologist clearance. Good that you did that- but you'd bred her without a correct clearance. And I count 16 half sibs on the sire side of this bitch that have had one or the other checked and 6 of those appear to have failed either hip or elbow or both. She has a full sibling who is dysplastic BOTH hip and elbow. And on the half sibs dam side, 1/2 of them are dysplastic. So she is just not a good gamble.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

LOTS of explaining and reasons and excuses for not doing something that is really easy to do. Do you breed Goldens in the United States? Then have their four core clearances listed on OFA. It's really that simple. All of the finger pointing goes away when you can PROVE it. It would take you less time to send in the clearances to OFA than you spent typing here to defend yourself.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

So, here is the thing...You don’t have a very positive review here from other experts (both other breeders like Robin that are well respected and educated pet owners). There are very valid reasons for that. You want that to change, you need to change how you manage your business. You need to get very transparent with your dog’s health and stay in alignment with the GRCA standards for responsible breeding. That is the measurement. So, go read the GRCA Website. Then make sure what you are breeding meets that standard. That’s it. Really. 

If you are going to use foreign born dogs make sure they have the appropriate testing. Living in Australia a BVA would be acceptable but as soon as the dog lives in the US they need to have testing that meets the US standards. A lot of less than reputable breeders don’t want to retest because they fear that our older, mature dog requirement will mean failing hip or elbows. It can and has happened because the US standard is more comprehensive and stringent. If health is the priority over “I have a piece of paper that says I can breed” then retesting at 24+ months should be an easy thing for any breeder to do. 

Start as Robin suggests by paying the very nominal fees and sending in your testing for hearts and eyes. Send in PennHIP for recording to OFA too. If you are doing PennHIP under 2 then either wait or have OFA done at 2 so you have both and are using PennHIP as a preliminary look. Stop breeding underage dogs. Honestly other than greed you have no reason to. 

Finally you need to really learn about structure. Robin is right photos on your website make it clear to other experience breeders and competitor that you don’t have your foundation in structure, type and soundness yet. Those IABCA titles are fun but they are no where near the same as AKC or even UKC. They are not competitive since it is common for all dogs entered to earn the title in one day regardless of placement. That organization exists for the rare breeds with no other venue to show, for breeders that no longer have appropriate access to AKC matches for training young dogs and breeders who need a place to earn a title of little to no value to impress puppy buyers who are not show experts.


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## Benjamin Irving (May 23, 2018)

*Clairification of Litter*



LJack said:


> So, here is the thing...You don’t have a very positive review here from other experts (both other breeders like Robin that are well respected and educated pet owners). There are very valid reasons for that. You want that to change, you need to change how you manage your business. You need to get very transparent with your dog’s health and stay in alignment with the GRCA standards for responsible breeding. That is the measurement. So, go read the GRCA Website. Then make sure what you are breeding meets that standard. That’s it. Really.
> 
> If you are going to use foreign born dogs make sure they have the appropriate testing. Living in Australia a BVA would be acceptable but as soon as the dog lives in the US they need to have testing that meets the US standards. A lot of less than reputable breeders don’t want to retest because they fear that our older, mature dog requirement will mean failing hip or elbows. It can and has happened because the US standard is more comprehensive and stringent. If health is the priority over “I have a piece of paper that says I can breed” then retesting at 24+ months should be an easy thing for any breeder to do.
> 
> ...



One more time.... *we have never bred under aged dogs*.....OFA provides charts to compare the ratings of European dogs to the USA standards. It does not matter what standards are set in other countries, because we have the where with all to compare those substandard ratings to our high standard though OFA. It would be impractical to demand that all foreign dogs be retested....thus the chart. One can down grade IABCA all they want but everyone there has a chance to win their class...but not all do, so the winner is still the best out of a competing group. As you said it is the only avenue for some to show their dogs. AKC seems to be making some changes and we are excited about that. We have never had a Judge tell us anything negative regarding Sue...in fact the last competition we went to the Judge said she is a great dog, but she prefers color. There is nothing wrong with her structure. Unfortunately, I believe that you are mixing us up with someone else.


We did send our heart tests in!!!! We are waiting for all dogs eyes to be done so that we can send all of them in to OFA together. Whether they are posted on OFA does not make their clearances invalid or untrue. 


We are no longer going to post on this thread, because we believe that we have provided facts needed to clear up any ambiguities that had arisen regarding this litter. If we have offended anyone we apologize for it was never our intent to undermine anyone's reputation or level of expertise, we just wanted an opportunity to present the facts as we found them in our research. We stand behind the health of this litter.


We wish you all the best in your breeding programs!


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

You are welcome to do with your program what ever you want. You seem upset that your program is and will continue to get a less than favorable review from knowledgeable people. I simply told you how you can improve that. If your not interested then so be it. It is your business. On my end if ever asked, I will have to respond that you don’t meet the standards for the USA and you don’t have competition titles of any value and you are way overpriced. 

This is coming from someone who has imported directly from Europe and shows in IABCA. I just make sure I meet the standard set forth by the GRCA and I show in other venues where I do win against competition to title.


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## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

In defense of Benjamin Irving Golden’s, I am only familiar with their American bred field girl Molly. I was previously looking for a field type golden. I met with Julie and got to meet Molly. She is a lovely field type girl and has her clearances, though a general vet did the heart oringinally. I told Julie that GRCA required a cartioligist for the heart clearance and she did have Molly’s heart rechecked and now has that clearance. I believe Julie has done a good job selecting the sires for Molly’s previous breedings. I would be very happy to own any of those pups. I don’t believe her price is out of line for field Golden’s. They are very difficult to find and are expensive. I have no comment on her golden Sue. I am not familiar with those bloodlines since I usually prefer field type Goldens. I have owned Golden’s for 30 plus years, from a breeder and from rescues. I do not breed.

Molly https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1852333


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