# I just don't know what to do with him!



## Elway&Prince (Sep 6, 2007)

Elway is driving me CRAZY! I have to keep him leashed to me constantly when he's out of his crate or he destroys something. He's crated in the kitchen at night and last night I mopped the kitchen floor so had pulled his crate out into the living room for the night. Well he broke a piece off the bottom of his crate and then chewed a nice hole in the carpet agian last night.

I take him out twice daily for walks (morning and nights for about 45 minutes to an hour) where we practice obedience as well to help tire him out. We also play fetch in the yard (which he can no longer participate in because he attacked our lab last night). Now everytime we go out he gets jealous or whatever because he isn't coming with and howls and barks constantly the whole time we're gone. The neighbors say his actions having actually gotten worse since we started taking him out for more exercise.

His food aggression has gotten worse. Last night he agian bit me when I went to put his dinner down and he's starting to break the skin.

I love him but he's killing me! I broke into tears today because I just don't know what to do with him. I'm doing what our trainer suggests to do and it's just not working. I just hope with age he'll grow out of it but I'm worried as he gets older because his destruction, and aggression seem to be getting worse.

I need help with him because I'm at my wits end. I just don't know what I'm doing wrong with him.


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

Puppys are tough, and I know how you are feeling, I went through it twice within the last year. It takes a lot of time and patience, but eventually it will go away. I would just continue doing what your trainer suggests, maybe even look into a puppy playgroup. It is amazing what these dogs can learn from each other. I am sure there are people on this forum who will have excellent advice for you. Good luck, and hang in there.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

How old is he?

Can't he play fetch alone for a while?

Training and walks are great....but he needs one on one playtime too.

Does he know sit and stay? I'd work on that hard. Make him sit and stay before you put the food down, and he doesn't get it until he does.

Do not feed him with other dogs around.

If you have to....start feeding him out of your hand. Teach him that you give...and if he doesn't behave, he doesn't get.

It's all about consistency, firmness, and teaching him who's in charge!


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## Elway&Prince (Sep 6, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> How old is he?
> 
> Can't he play fetch alone for a while?
> 
> ...


He will be 9 months old at the end of October (so he's 8 months) and has been neutered since he was 6 months.

He won't fetch by himself I try to teach him but he won't get the ball. He will chase the other dogs when they go tot fetch the ball but he has no desire to fetch or return the ball. The only thing he will play is tug of war and I will not play that with my dogs.

He does know sit and stay and I do have him sit and stay until I put the bowl down and say ok. Yesterday though when I was putting the bowl down I don't know what happened and he lashed out and bit my arm.

I will try feeding him by hand again. My trainer always uses positive training methods and NILIF so that is also what we use with him. He's just killing me in the meantime because I'm so worried I'm not doing something right and I'm ruining him.


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## Elway&Prince (Sep 6, 2007)

Bailey & Bentley said:


> Puppys are tough, and I know how you are feeling, I went through it twice within the last year. It takes a lot of time and patience, but eventually it will go away. I would just continue doing what your trainer suggests, maybe even look into a puppy playgroup. It is amazing what these dogs can learn from each other. I am sure there are people on this forum who will have excellent advice for you. Good luck, and hang in there.


we've tried the puppy preschool classes and he was horrible! He's a huge bully with other dogs/puppies/cats/kitties and would just attack them every chance he got. My trainer suggested we take him out because they couldn't get anything done with him so we took him out and just do private lessons at our house.

He was a backyard breeder puppy so we're thinking some of this may have to do with his background and everything but that is still no excuse to not try and fix it. I tried to contact the person who originally rescued him but they had no information except what town he came from.


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## Daisy n Me (May 17, 2007)

Awww, I hope things get better. I can relate because I've been going through crazy times with Daisy too. She's 6.5 months old. Hang in there! I hope something works/he grows out of it.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

It sounds like the pup has been overloaded with too much freedom, too quickly in life. (He has perceived this freedom to be a lack of orderly social structure and leadership.)

How old was the pup when you got him?

Elway is doing what most adolecent retrievers do when they sense a lack of leadership in their social group, that is assume the position of "top" dog until somebody shows him otherwise. (ALL dogs will do this.)

Positive methods and NILIF work best if they have been properly used from the start at 7 or 8 weeks old. They alone may not be the best options for correcting undesireable behaviors when they've been allowed to continue for a while. It's time to open up your options and adapt to whatever is necessary to start making progress with the pup.

It's time to take off the kid gloves and take control of the situation before things really get out of hand. You need to teach the pup the RULES. You need to start spending some dedicated one on one training time with the pup working on basic obedience skills (Sit, Here, Heel and Down). Use a Pinch collar, a sturdy six foot lead, thirty foot check cord and perhaps a heeling stick if necessary. 

Reward the dog for good behavior/proper reponse (Praise, pat on the head, or treat).

Correct for refusals or lack of effort. (Refusing to properly perform commands that the dog knows and clearly understands. I.E. Flipping you the paw!) Correct with a firm tug on the lead.

Set some up some cones (or other reference objects) in the yard and do some heeling drills around them requiring frequent inword and outword turns (square patterns, figure eights, etc.), making it necessary for the dog to pay attention to you and where you're going, i.e. forcing him to follow the leader (You). Practice this structured leash work religiously every day. 

Use NILIF and extend it into every aspect of the dogs life.

Crate train the pup. The crate becomes "His" space. Everything outside the crate is "YOUR" space, and he is only allowed to use "your" space at your discretion. Add baby gates to extend this concept. Proper behavior gains greater access into your space, improper behavior prohibits him from your space. He must "earn" the privilege of greater access to your space by following your rules. 

Make it absolutely clear to the dog in no uncertain terms that putting his teeth on a human being is NOT acceptable under any circumstances. Be physical with the dog if it becomes necessary to do so, to make that point absolutely clear to the dog. Putting teeth on a human is a life threatening behavior for a dog, and you need to treat it as such. (It is a BIG deal.)

Limit the amount of time the pup is interacting with the other dogs, and supervise the time they are together. Do not allow unsupervised interaction until after you've established and affirmed the new rules and social order for the pup.

The "Puppy License" expired a long time ago. It's time to start making the pup observe the rules. 

There is nothing wrong with the pup at this time other than a lack of training and firm leadership. If you don't have the time necessary to train the pup, hire a professional trainer to do it for you or rehome the pup with somebody who has the time to dedicate to the task at hand.


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## Elway&Prince (Sep 6, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> It sounds like the pup has been overloaded with too much freedom, too quickly in life. (He has perceived this freedom to be a lack of orderly social structure and leadership.)
> 
> How old was the pup when you got him?
> 
> ...


I got Elway at 3 months and NILIF was used from the moment he stepped through the door as it has been used with our lab from about 6 months of age (we heard about it when our lab was about 6 months and have been using it with her ever since).

Our golden knows come, sit, down, stay, wait, paw, high five, wave, roll over, crawl, play dead, heel. I work with him every day because the walks that I take him him in the morning and night are with just me and him so he gets about 2 hours of alone time with me where we walk and work on commands so he is getting a lot of one on one time with me.

He has been crate trained from day one as well he goes in there for bed and when we are gone. He has never gotten the concept of crate training either as he still barks and howls when he is in the crate by himself no matter how much time we have spent walking and training him beforehand. Since we have been upping his exercise our neighbors say he has been getting worse.

When he bit me yesterday I gave him a firm "no" and he went back in his crate while I washed my arm and put some bandaids on it. He was in time out for fifteen minutes and then back on the leash and we did about 15 minutes of sits, downs, stay, come, and heel. Everytime he does something we feel unacceptable we have him do some obedience just to refresh him that he must listen to us.

He is supervised when with the dogs and never left alone. Like I said when he is inside he is leashed to me basically at all times unless I can give him 100% of my attention. 

I don't see how we aren't giving him firm leadership he does obedience EVERYDAY. He has a trainer come here once a week to do hour long lessons with us and him and our trainer knows without a doubt that we are keeping up with obedience. I mean can you explain how I can do more. I feel like I am giving him everything I have and getting nothing in return.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Just a question.....I see a LOT of training going into Elway. I don't see any playtime, cuddling, bonding (except in the training sense) mentioned.

Do you play too? You said he doesn't "fetch" on his own. You won't play pulley with him......so what do you play?

We do play pulley, but only if we know we can win. Once a dog is bigger and stronger, they never get the chance to win because we don't play those games.

Do you take him places with you? Go out just to have some fun elsewhere? Go get ice cream? 

The nothing in return you're getting may just be the age of the dog. Or you've hit a training wall, and it'll take some time to get over it. Was he giving you the responses you were looking for earlier? 

I'd say that he must be doing some things right. It sounds as though he knows a good amount for his age.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Why don't you play tug with him? Playing tug is great fun and actually TEACHES leadership and respect, because YOU make the rules of the game.


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## Elway&Prince (Sep 6, 2007)

Yes we do cuddle I get down on the floor and he lays with me and watches tv with the other dogs. I pet and love on him. He doesn't play really unless it's chasing another dog, or rough housing with another dog. He does have a soccer ball that he likes when I kick it then he chases it around the yard and house so that is usually what I play with him. It's special for him too because he's the only one that will play that game so it's special time with him and me. I take him to the park in the mornings, and if I bring the kids in the afternoon, and he gets to run offleash and we run around going down the slides he loves running across the bridge!

I don't take him out for icecream usually the park and my in-laws (doesn't sound like fun but their backyard is bigger than ours) is where he goes for fun.

He is really responsive he does everything first time whenever we ask. I hope we get over this soon it seems like he's just great for awhile and then he becomes a terror. He's being good as gold right now laying peacefully at my feet.


I don't play tug a war with him because I NEVER win he always manages to pull it out of my hands so I just don't play it with him.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

It sounds like a phase. They go through a lot of them, just like kids. And some are pretty obnoxious times. 

Just keep doing what you're doing, and also start making him realize that food comes from you and you don't bite the hand that feeds you or you don't get fed.

It sounds like he was grabbing for the food when he "got" you? Perhaps you can start making him sit and stay about 10 feet away from you while you're preparing and laying the food down. Then call him to the bowl when it's okay to eat.

Practice giving him bits of food, and making him be gentle. He can't have it if he isn't sitting, or if he gets hyper and grabby. Practice by hand, by putting food on the floor in front of him, by putting it in his bowl pieces at at time, etc.

Don't tease him with it......but do make sure he understands that he'll only get it if he behaves as you wish. The instant he does what you say.....release him from the stay command, and let him have his treat, or food.

The "leave it" command, is really good for this type of thing. You can teach him to leave it until you say it's okay to eat it.

Also, make sure you can play in his food bowl. If he starts getting hostile, start hand feeding him again.

I believe you can work through this. You're doing well so far, and so is he.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

A agree with swamp collie. Basically, you need to show him you are the boss.


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## Scorpio118 (Jul 9, 2007)

HANG IN THERE!!!! 

BE CONSISTENT!!!!

Your puppy is testing his license!!!! :doh: STAY STRONG!!!


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

9 months is the age that many many goldens and labs are surrendered - for exactly the problems you are facing...some can be very obnoxious!

Our Lexi was a royal PITA when we adopted her at 9 months old! She was nippy, had food agression issues, would jump, would steal ANYTHING and EVERYTHING -she was a horror show on a leash...
She was about 15 months old before I really 'liked' her and about 2 when I fell in love with her....she is nearly 9 now and a dear sweet, smart dog, but she always has a twinkle of mischief in her eye and I wouldnt have it any other way...

Teaching her to love her crate was a life saver...it was the best managmenet tool!
Teaching her to enjoy 'chewing time' was a big help....huge Nylabones and kongs were and still are a big part of her mental helath....
Teaching her to accept her Gentle Leader so I could walk her was a saving grace...
Teaching her to retrieve with lots of very short sessions started to get he brain in gear...
Hand Feeding her was a HUGE help
NILIF saved our sanity....and gave us a guide of what to do minute by minute
Puppyproofing our whole house was a huge mental step for us to take...it was a pain to basically clear off every flat surface and gate off every room, but it saved lots of 'stuff' and eliminated our frustration with the damage that she was capable of....

Hang in there and stay firm...it can be done....


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## Lisa (Sep 25, 2007)

Oh my! This is a difficult time for you! I have been through it with our rescued female who always "pushed" for dominance. Such a strong will. We had to work hard for a YEAR to get her to know who was boss! Of course there were good times mixed in... but, she was tough! We got professional help (like you). Stick with it. She is a ray of sunshine now. :smooch:

Whenever we recued a dog, it seems they had to go through a period of "boot camp" - they had to work hard and obey for ANYTHING they got. And... they do go through that adolescent phase too. It sounds like that's where you are. 

I have a question - not sure if it belongs in this thread or another location... what is NILIF?

Lisa


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Lisa said:


> I have a question - not sure if it belongs in this thread or another location... what is NILIF?
> 
> Lisa


Nothing In Life Is Free


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## kalkid (Feb 22, 2007)

vrocco1 said:


> A agree with swamp collie. Basically, you need to show him you are the boss.


Same here. NILIF is fine and works for some/maybe most dogs but like kids some dogs are more stubborn than others. If it's not working you need to try something more aggressive. I hate to say it but the dog really needs to respect you almost to the point of having a little bit of fear when it comes to him screwing up.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I would almost pay to have a week with this dog!!! I actually LIKE dogs like this :bowl:


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I would almost pay to have a week with this dog!!! I actually LIKE dogs like this :bowl:


You can take Tucker for a week... I've given up on trying to get him behave... now we just let him destroy things cuz we can't seem to stop it no matter what we do anyway... LOL.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I have to comment on this...

This is not a dominant monster who needs to fear you. 

IMHO that is almost sick...

This is a wild, active, nutty, fun loving member of anther species who needs more to chew, more to run, more to do, and some direction. 

All those things he does- are PROOF that he WANTS things. Dogs that WANT things are so easy to motivate to do the right things. Every "sin" he commits just screams to me one more thing you can use to YOUR advantage to train him. This dog wants everything- food, toys, attention, other dogs, play... in addition to being bold and tough and active... good god that is every serious trainers dream dog!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Tucker boy... he's so laid back... LOL he wouldn't do it for me... I bet he lays down when he eats a hole in the rug LOL


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Tucker boy... he's so laid back... LOL he wouldn't do it for me... I bet he lays down when he eats a hole in the rug LOL


hahaha you bet he does, he's almost like a casual chewer :...and as soon as someone comes into the room he puts his tail between his legs and runs into his crate... he knows when he's doing something he shouldn't, thats why I dont understand WHY he does it LOL.

Last night I caught him outside digging a HUGE hole in the garden, so I gave him a slap on the nose (not hard but enough for him to know I'm pissed off) yelled at him (the usual, you bad little bugger,mommas gonna kill you! LOL) and put him in the house and crated him... then I covered the hole up and put a Garden statue over top of it LOL.

After about 10 minutes of being in his crate I went back downstairs to check on him and he was laying down giving me those "puppy eyes" and that "What'd I do wrong?" look..... :doh: So I let him out and he went and played with his bone... haha.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

No, he doesn't know, girl! He just knows mom is gonna be ticked! 

BTW do not crate him when he's bad... crate him BEFORE he's bad... LOL


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## Elway&Prince (Sep 6, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I have to comment on this...
> 
> This is not a dominant monster who needs to fear you.
> 
> ...


I mail him off to you today:lol:!

I would love to give him toys and stuff to chew on but he can not be trusted with them if one of my kids walk by he gets really protective of whatever it is and if another dog walks by he just goes off (and we're worried what would happen if a kid got in the way).

We're gonna have to try a lot harder with him I see so we're gonna get together with his trainer just to talk about him.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

If you were down here I'd be delighted to work with him!


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## Elway&Prince (Sep 6, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> If you were down here I'd be delighted to work with him!


I'd be willing to relocate for the winter!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Ha, where are you?


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## Elway&Prince (Sep 6, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Ha, where are you?


Indiana. We get too much snow here in the winter so I'd be happy to move south for a couple months.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> No, he doesn't know, girl! He just knows mom is gonna be ticked!
> 
> BTW do not crate him when he's bad... crate him BEFORE he's bad... LOL


Yeah, but we never know WHEN he's going to be bad... it's really random LOL.

And he never gets caught in the act because as soon as he hears someone coming he runs into his crate and lies down. (but its obviously him who did the bad deed!)

It seems to only take a minute for him to completely ruin something. I don't wanna have to crate him ALL the time.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

He should not be left alone- leash him to you!


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## Elway&Prince (Sep 6, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> He should not be left alone- leash him to you!


that's what we do with Elway he's leashed to us most the day unless we're playing fetch or kicking the soccer ball. Otherwise within minutes there's a hole chewed in the carpet, a couch cushion destroyed, or a tv remote control eaten.

Tomorrow we have just a consultation with his trainer. She told us when we first started he is a very dominant puppy and we are very lax people for the most part. She didn't think he fits in with our family but I told her unless it was an extreme emergency rehoming is not an option for him I couldn't do it.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

He needs about 10 times more exercise. If he would eat hole in something within a few moments of being alone- he is either psychotic or he needs to be turned loose in a feild for two hours.


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## Elway&Prince (Sep 6, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> He needs about 10 times more exercise. If he would eat hole in something within a few moments of being alone- he is either psychotic or he needs to be turned loose in a feild for two hours.


That's what we have been doing. We've been giving him more exercise and letting him run offleash at the park. The only thing we've noticed is now that we've been doing that he gets upset when we leave and don't take him (like if we're going grocery shopping) and our neighbors say his barking and howling have gotten worse. We actually have him on video tape throwing his fits while we're going to make sure the neighbors weren't just saying that.

We try to give him as much exercise as possible he runs offleash at the park for atleast an hour a day, we play outside at night for another 45 minutes either fetch or kicking the soccer ball (now I'm kicking the soccer ball because noone else plays that so there's no fighting).

My husband thinks he's just psycho. He just needs other things to chew on but we can't give those to him with the other dogs or kids. He even goes nuts if another dog walks by his crate. Some of this may have to do with Prince coming here though my trainer said.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Well I can agree that he needs to be taught what is okay and NOT okay. But I don't think he needs to fear you- I hate that approach.

I would put him in a crate in another room and cover it- and within give him lots of goodies to chew and work on.

What does he eat? Diet can actually make a difference in behavior.

Not another plug for raw- but it is true I have had nutty dogs that once they ate raw chilled a lot. Just shredding up those turkey necks helped their brains! The lack of sugar and junk did, too.


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## Elway&Prince (Sep 6, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Well I can agree that he needs to be taught what is okay and NOT okay. But I don't think he needs to fear you- I hate that approach.
> 
> I would put him in a crate in another room and cover it- and within give him lots of goodies to chew and work on.
> 
> ...


right now he's on Eagle Pack large and giant breed puppy formula. We tried him on raw which is how he figured out he also had food aggression towards people. Kibble is one thing he doesn't care if I stick my hand in the bowl, pick it up, anything if it's kibble he doesn't care.

I'll try covering the crate when I give him bones and stuff I just hope he doesn't try to eat the blanket:lol:. I don't want to teach him to fear me! I want him to do what I ask because he wants to not because he's afraid of getting smacked if he doesn't.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Good- glad to hear that last part!

I LOVE your siggy pic- GORGEOUS!

I "cover" my crates of my nutty dogs with plywood boards propped up LOL they cant eat those, I also use them to block dogs' views of eachother that have next door crates if I am boarding a dog that is space aggressive.


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## Old Gold Mum2001 (Feb 25, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I have to comment on this...
> 
> This is not a dominant monster who needs to fear you.
> 
> ...


 
ITA
Like a learning sponge they are  always wanting/needing to be challanged with new things to learn, need to exercise the mind as well


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## Lisa (Sep 25, 2007)

Not that this is THE answer... but a small suggestion... maybe Elway needs something to really work on while he's in his crate (besides the blanket). LOL This recipe was in the GRIN newsletter:

****
*Stuff the following mixed ingredients into your dog’s KONG.
For healthy skin and a shiny coat try this treat that is full of Omega-3 fatty acids: A frozen Tuna Kong!​**Kong: 
1 6 oz. can light tuna 
2 tbsp. plain yogurt 
1/4 c. grated carrot​****

I am sure you could vary the recipe depending on your dog's diet... I am thinking tuna or chicken, rice, carrots, natural peanut butter, etc. If it's frozen and packed in there, then he'd have to lick and lick and work really hard to eat. Anything Elway has to work hard for or exert energy for is good. I have never seen a dog destroy a KONG. Or a Nylabone (the really tough ones - not the "treat" ones).​*


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

Yes, he sounds like a dog that was more of the dominent type when a puppy, and you being more of the lax type helped him on his way to what your seeing today. Of course, with all the knee surgeries and health problems you've had, this was probally done very easily by him as he worked his way up the ladder to what he is now, a nine month old out of control dog. You do have your hands full with him now, he's bigger and things have already been set so changing them will take time, sometimes when you work on gaining back control a dog will put up some fight, and I am assuming this is what your seeing when you mention he seems to be getting worse at times. This is normal for many, since they have the higher position now they don't always care to give it up so easily and will put up a little fight to keep it.
There is one other thing that does come to mind in all this, and that would be in his crate, are you sure he doesn't have an anxiety with this? Many dogs with anxieties will dig there way out of a crate, or scratch terribly at a door or window when ones owner leaves, bark profusely do to anxieties they may have. If your sure your not dealing with this, then it would fall into a crate training issue you would have to work with that as well. Right now he has quite a few issues going on, each one would have to be worked on seperately and although the NILIF will help establish your dominent role, it will not fix the problems as a whole, those need to be worked on one by one. 
I myself would get him off your hip, and begin training for the inside issues, you can't train if he's on your hip. He could by now feel overly protective of you do too this as well, so that may have something to do with why he pulls into protective mode outside and you fear him with other kids. Also, make sure it is protective. Many dogs that come on as aggressive to us, are not aggressive at all out there and by looking at his body language at the time of happening will tell you exactly what this is, but you must look for as many signs as you possibly can to know for sure.
Yes, he needs to run and play and be a dog. But he also needs structure to become a civalized dog inside and out, and I think Swampcollie has pretty much laid out a good place to begin for you, and this dog. He will need a strong leader to guide him and teach him the respect we all ask for out of our neighbors, our children as well as our dogs. 
From now on through things will be on your terms, not his. And do expect a little back talk out of him, he's held the position of leader now for sometime. Most of all, I am concerned for your knee's now with him at his age and of course the weight he has backing him.


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