# Growling/Barking at Other Dogs :(



## Lucky's mom

I'm sorry! Hope you get lots of advice on this. I know your walks must be stressful.


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## tintallie

That is Wiggs' story...he's still not neutered and DH refuses to seeing that it isn't Wiggs' fault and Wiggs shouldn't have to miss his boys.

I carry something to help ward off dogs on most walks and call AC when necessary (useless as they are).


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## Oaklys Dad

Do Sam and Dillon get much time with other dogs? I was thinking maybe some time at doggie day care would help them be a little more socialized.


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## missmarstar

Oh I wanted to say also, the dog doesn't have to bark at Sam to get this reaction from him. On our walk this evening, we were on the other side of the road on the opposite sidewalk from a woman walking her dog. The dog made eye contact with Sam, Sam went ballistic, and the woman and her dog kept walking without so much as a peep from the other dog. 

It's just really upsetting to me. Sam used to love playing with other dogs and I just worry that he's now beyond help at this point. I don't know what to do here!!


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## missmarstar

Oaklys Dad said:


> Do Sam and Dillon get much time with other dogs? I was thinking maybe some time at doggie day care would help them be a little more socialized.



They don't... like I said I really don't know anyone that has a dog, and the last time they were able to play with another dog was when my friend was out visiting from Arizona in November and brought her dog Molly (Sam's littermate) over to play. There was no aggression and they all played very well together, and this was after the attack. I don't know if it's because Sam "knows" Molly.. or what.. but he had none of this negative reaction that he does towards other dogs now.

I would do doggie daycare, but I really just can't afford it.. especially not for both. I feel bad taking just Sam and leaving Dillon home alone... but maybe it would help to do it for a couple days a week for a little bit? I don't know.. I hate to put Sam in a stressful situation.. I am almost sure this is fear-based.


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## Jo Ellen

It might be worth a shot to put Sam in daycare just once to have him evaluated. Maybe his response is an on-leash kind of thing? I would be totally honest with the daycare owner first, but they might be in a good position to help you determine exactly what's going on here.


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## Bock

Tysen has been going to daycare for about the last year 1/2 with me and is usually the first dog we let out when testing new dogs because he is almost guaranteed to play. However, on walks if other dogs are around he if they make eye contact and bark at him his hackles go up, growling and barking start, and the lounging begins. 

So due to my experience with it, I don't think it'd be quite the time to say Sammy isn't friendly because maybe he is-off leash. He may just be getting enough confidence from being on leash or feeling your anxiety or nervousness and acting out because of that.


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## Bender

Ticket has this problem too, at least he'd like to. 

I did a lot of attention work with him so he was solid on it, worked distractions where if he looked away he got a quick pop or I goosed him, then when he chose to not fall for the distractions he got even more rewards. Once he could do that with minor distractions I upped it to being outside with dogs barking far away and then closer and closer.

He also spent a month in a barking collar when outside, because he also barked at everything. On walks too it helped, the odd time he'd go to fence fight he'd get corrected for barking and that set him down a few pegs for it. You have to be careful with them but it did the trick for Ticket, he no longer fence fights or barks much at other dogs when he sees them from the yard. 

Now he's not too bad, I wouldn't let him loose to play with certain dogs and when he's boarded he goes out by himself or with the girls (they have playgroups during the daytime), but he can go for a walk to the mailbox with my 3 year old walking him, and we go training with different dogs all the time - I just watch who's around him.

If nothing else, I'd go for the barking collar, it was the easiest thing to do and worked really well. For some dogs too its 'fun' to do the fence fighting thing, I know Storee thought it was very cool when we moved here and the dog next door would stand and bark, she'd go attack the fence, till I set the sprinkler up a few times.... I really ruined that fun game for her.

Lana


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## Ardeagold

Obedience classes help too. Just go and go and go. Keep his attention as stated above....and talk to the trainers there about what you're trying to accomplish.

We had this problem with Mira after being harassed in puppy obedience by a terrier of some sort. She still doesn't like other dogs approaching her while she's on leash, but once off leash, in our yard....or elsewhere...she's fine...after they "officially meet".

So she has "leash aggression". It's not unusual when a dog on a leash has been attacked or harrassed while they were "constrained".

Best of luck with Sam.


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## BeauShel

Just some ideas I have seen work on "Its me or the dogs". I know it is condensed but she says to take treats and when you see a dog coming make Sam sit and focus on you giving him a little treat. And then after the dog goes past then start walking again. And the other I have seen her use is when you are walking and he starts to bark or pulling to turn around and walk the opposite way. Everything he does it you turn around and he will catch on that bad behavior isnt rewarded. Not sure about when the other dogs start barking. Maybe you can try to reward him when he is quiet walking by when they are barking and not when he barks back. 
Good luck. I know it is frustrating, my last golden Katie was the same way and I couldnt ever get her to stop.


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## missmarstar

Another thing is that we rarely ever see dogs on leashes... it's almost always dogs yapping at us from their front yards or inside their houses even though the screen doors. I think in the year and a half we've lived here we've only ever seen someone walking a dog a small handful of times, less than 10. I think I may look into a bark collar.. but I know that's not solving the underlying problem. I will email my petsitter that Sam's been to a few times, because she does daycare as well... do you think it would help if I'm there to kind of watch/observe? I hate to drop Sam off and just hope everything is ok, or leave the "problem" for the petsitter to deal with. 

Does anyone think neutering Sam will help some of this??


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## missmarstar

Bender (or anyone) do you have any bark collar recommendations?


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## Bock

missmarstar said:


> Another thing is that we rarely ever see dogs on leashes... it's almost always dogs yapping at us from their front yards or inside their houses even though the screen doors. I think in the year and a half we've lived here we've only ever seen someone walking a dog a small handful of times, less than 10. I think I may look into a bark collar.. but I know that's not solving the underlying problem. I will email my petsitter that Sam's been to a few times, because she does daycare as well... do you think it would help if I'm there to kind of watch/observe? I hate to drop Sam off and just hope everything is ok, or leave the "problem" for the petsitter to deal with.
> 
> Does anyone think neutering Sam will help some of this??


You can attempt to observe Sam, but I highly doubt you will see anything. At my daycare, the dogs all know someone is there watching them (besides one of us working) and most will not act like they normally do. However, it doesn't hurt trying


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## missmarstar

Bock said:


> You can attempt to observe Sam, but I highly doubt you will see anything. At my daycare, the dogs all know someone is there watching them (besides one of us working) and most will not act like they normally do. However, it doesn't hurt trying



Well its not a big "doggy daycare" place.. the most dogs they have on any given day for daycare would be 6 (and I don't think its usually that many) I believe and its run out of her house. I just feel bad giving her a dog that I know may have issues and taking off. I'll probably take him on one of my day's off so I could go pick him up if there's a problem.. but I hate to do that because I like hanging out with him on my days off  Maybe I'll just leave him for half days for the first few times and see how he does. But really the problem is probably just when he's on-leash... or in my backyard when people or dogs walk by.


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## nixietink

missmarstar said:


> Bender (or anyone) do you have any bark collar recommendations?


Hi Marlene 
I'm sorry you're having problems with Sammy!
I totally recommend the citronella bark collar. I used it with Vito with really great results. It has a microphone on it and every time your dog barks it sprays citronella in front of their face. Just an fyi, it will go off if it is on and Dillon barks near Sam.
I got mine from muttmart.com. I couldn't find it any less expensive.


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## missmarstar

nixietink said:


> Hi Marlene
> I'm sorry you're having problems with Sammy!
> I totally recommend the citronella bark collar. I used it with Vito with really great results. It has a microphone on it and every time your dog barks it sprays citronella in front of their face. Just an fyi, it will go off if it is on and Dillon barks near Sam.
> I got mine from muttmart.com. I couldn't find it any less expensive.



Dillon does not bark at all... unless he and Sam are wrestling, and he wouldn't have the collar on then anyway. How does the citronella thing stay positioned right in front of the face? I think I will start walking the dogs separately all the time so I can really work with Sam one on one for a while. I'm just so sad he's showing these issues now.. I thought he was ok after his dog attack and now.. I just see that he's not  I feel bad that I've let this problem get as bad as it has... I didn't even really realize it was escalating as much as it has.


Would the citronella collar go off with just a loud growl? Sam usually growls a lot before the real barking begins. I'd like to stop it before it even gets to the barking if possible.


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## Lucky's mom

Lucky is a "wuss" when he passes by barking dogs behind fences or people walking dogs as we walk. He just ingnores them, whines at them or walks faster. 

But in his own yard he sounds ferocious as strangers or dogs walk by. I wouldn't worry about him barking at people or dogs as they pass _his_ yard. In my mind, this is a normal thing.


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## nixietink

Well it actually goes on just like a collar. The spray kind of angles out in front of their face. Vito hates the smell...I don't blame him. We don't have to use it any more, but whenever it would go off he would rub his face on his bed for like 5 minutes. It's being used on a dog in our obedience class now and it works well with him as well.

It's like this


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## missmarstar

Lucky's mom said:


> Lucky is a "wuss" when he passes by barking dogs behind fences or people walking dogs as we walk. He just ingnores them, whines at them or walks faster.
> 
> But in his own yard he sounds ferocious as strangers or dogs walk by. I wouldn't worry about him barking at people or dogs as they pass _his_ yard. In my mind, this is a normal thing.


Yea that doesn't bother me as much.. I mean I still tell Sam to stop if I'm out there at the time... he REALLY barks when someone goes by on a bicycle or something.. I don't mind it and actually I'd rather people be aware that I have 2 dogs here who don't appear all that friendly (atleast Sam..), considering I'm going to be home alone quite often in the coming months.


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## Bender

If she's comfortable with it, drop him off on a day you can pick him up, or can she crate him if needed? Does she have a good set up for managing multiple dogs?

Where I work we have 8 or so different runs that we can put dogs into, so we can separate them as needed, and there's enough space so that they're not crowded (I would worry about that with some daycares, if there's too many dogs in a small space....). And, it's a lot easier if the owners drop and run, we don't allow the owners into the kennel or outside with the dogs at all, that's when there's issues usually because some dogs are 'mama's dogs' and get protective of their owners.

I don't think the bark collar will solve everything, but it did help a lot for Ticket, he had to figure out how to get through his day without barking - and in the process realized that the other dogs didn't react as much to him when HE wasn't barking and lunging. The one I borrowed was a tritronics, I have their training collars and everyone seems to like the brand. Plus the rep here is really good about repairs and replacements. The citronella collars don't seem to work as well, and after 3-4 sprays some dogs don't care anymore (it's like spraying yourself in the face with perfume, after 3-4 sprays it wouldn't matter if it's 10...) - plus you'd have to watch your other dog didn't get it in the face or barked at the wrong time.

Lana


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## missmarstar

nixietink said:


> Well it actually goes on just like a collar. The spray kind of angles out in front of their face. Vito hates the smell...I don't blame him. We don't have to use it any more, but whenever it would go off he would rub his face on his bed for like 5 minutes. It's being used on a dog in our obedience class now and it works well with him as well.



I really think something like this would work well for Sam.. he HATED bitter apple spray, so when he went through a "bark at mom when I was bored/wanted something/being bratty" phase at 5 months old, I'd spray bitter apple towards his nose and he'd stop immediately. I guess this would be kind of the same thing. I guess its worth a try. Though like I said, something like this isn't really addressing the underlying issue.

I thought Sam was pretty unaffected by his dog attack at first.. it really saddens me to see these effects now, and I know it is definitely related.


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## missmarstar

I'm emailing the petsitter now and seeing what she thinks. I'm planning on going to the zoo on Tues or Wed next week, that may be a good time to take Sam over there.


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## missmarstar

Just got this email response back from the petsitter.. Sam will be going on Wednesday for a few hours while I go to the zoo with a friend... I hope it goes well.. 

oh, question also... does anyone think it would be a good idea for me to ask the petsitter to take Sam for a leashed walk with one of the other dogs? I wonder if this would help him also... I will talk to her about that as well.





> Hi Marlene,
> 
> I'm so sorry that this happened to Sam! Sadly, we do see this kind of thing
> happen a lot. It's easy to develop leash aggression once a dog has a bad
> experience- they may always see another dog as a threat, but there are
> things you can do. We'd be happy to have Sam come for Daycare and then we
> can help assess where he's at. We are pretty busy this week, but we can fit
> him in on Wednesday. We'll have a few other dogs his age/size that are well
> socialized and would be a great fit. Otherwise, we can take him
> Monday/Tuesday/Thursday next week, whatever works for you.
> 
> When you do come over, make sure he comes into the house without his leash
> and we'll see how he reacts to everyone. We won't pressure him to
> immediately go into the dog room, he can go at his own pace. Dogs do tend
> to act differently around their owners so he may have a strong reaction at
> first, but don't worry too much. We do have a lot of experience working
> with shy, insecure, dominant and aggressive dogs... I think Sam will be a
> breeze & will be back to his old self soon.


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## solinvictus

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm#problem

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001b/desensitizing.htm


What you have described sounds like fear aggression. The best thing you can do is to hire a behavorist or a trainer that works on positive reinforcement to come and actually evaluate Sam on his walks. It really sounds like the last attack has affected him greatly. The links above may be able to help you. You don't need to use a clicker if you and Sam are not comfortable with it. You could just use a word marker instead. With the desensitization it is very important that you take it very slow and don't move forward until Sam is comfortable otherwise each adrenalin rush of fear is a feel good reinforcer just like when people sit and watch scary movies. The rush feels good. Once they have become fearful it really takes a long time for them to either overcome the fear or become trained and confident enough not to act out. I wish you luck with this. It is really sad the damage that can be done by irresponsible people not having well trained dogs.
And most likely any dog that Sam was friendly with prior to that attack he will still be friendly with as he doesn't have any fear of them.


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## Sienna's Mom

Just posting my hugs, I have a similar situation with Sienna, but she is more fearful than anything else. We can't tie it to an attack (at least nothing WE saw) but about a year ago Sienna suddenly started having problems meeting other dogs while on walks. She would let out a "back off" bark/yelp. It was really out of the blue. Sometimes she is okay, but usually a little nervous. I have tried really hard to keep a loose leash and be easy going.

I'm there with you on affording doggy daycare, something I really wish we could do, as Sienna is crated during the day with a doggy helper that comes in midday to let her out for pee and play. So she doesn't have everyday experience with other doggy playing, something I think she would like because she is always trying to play with ME like I was a dog!

When this all happened we took her to doggy daycare to see how she did. She was always timid at first, but ended up settling in and playing a bit. The handlers always said she did like being around people much more and this is very true at home- on walks she may greet/check out the dog, but always turns her attention to the owner for loves LOL.

When we boarded her over Thanksgiving, the owners said she was always timid every morning, like she forgot where she was () and then warmed up and was playing by days end.

Being on leash makes her feel cornered, I don't know why it started out of the blue, only that it was as she matured. I am hoping she will be okay on the Golden walk this Saturday. I am thinking she should settle in after a bit.

I would be curious to see how Sam does in an unleashed situation.


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## solinvictus

I don't think the collar is a good solution. You will be punishing the dog because he is afraid. It is aggression against aggression and recently someone just posted an article that it only breeds more aggression. So it will just stress Sam more and breed more fear.  
Having the pet sitter walk him with another dog puts all of them at risk. Make sure she knows all of the facts.


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## Ljilly28

I do think being neutered helps. I agree with Ardeagold that obedience training helps alot bc they learn the "with me/watch me" command and concept. Maybe even just buy a simple 50 cent clicker, and get him used to connecting the click to some yummy treats like chicken. Then, whenever he looks at you, click and treat. Next, whenever he makes eye contact, click and treat. Then, on the leash in the house, etc. . .keep building the look at me skill til he can do it when you see another dog.


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## tippykayak

Is there any way to keep him from fence running? Observing and being isolated can lead to insecure territoriality which translates strongly to insecure aggression on the leash. I think you're right to connect these behaviors. 

It's crucial to interrupt him and focus his attention on you right as he starts to build his aggression towards other dogs. The suggestions about obedience, attention training, and the use of the clicker are all spot on.


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## missmarstar

solinvictus said:


> I don't think the collar is a good solution. You will be punishing the dog because he is afraid. It is aggression against aggression and recently someone just posted an article that it only breeds more aggression. So it will just stress Sam more and breed more fear.
> Having the pet sitter walk him with another dog puts all of them at risk. Make sure she knows all of the facts.



Yes after sleeping on it last night I decided I would like to try other options before going this route. I know this is not "his fault" and don't wish to punish him for reacting negatively in a situation he is now uncomfortable in... I hate that this awful dog attack has ruined my sweet friendly dog  


And yes I explained the situation in great detail to the dogsitter... the last thing I'd want is for her to be unprepared for any issues that may come up.


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## missmarstar

Ok.... so just got in from a walk with Sam. Actually it went well. We passed by three dogs in yards. The first dog started growling quietly at Sam... Sam's ears perked up, and I said "Sam, look at me" his head made the slightest turn in my direction and I said "good!" and we walked across the street... it distracted him JUST ENOUGH to ignore the dog. The 2nd dog we passed was full on barking at us. Again Sam perked up and I could see him start to think about growling and I did the same thing.. and just walked to the other side of the street and he didn't bark or growl. The third time, Sam let out a little growl and I was able to distract him again before it escalated. 

After thinking back really hard about everything... I'm realizing that Sam is much more prone to react quickly if Dillon is walking with us. If he's alone, it seemed easier to control the situation for me and he's less prone to go from nice dog to crazy wild animal quite as quickly. Although he still has barked/growled/done the same thing alone... I'm not saying it ONLY happens with Dillon.. just seems to happen quicker and more frequently when he is with us too. Why do you think that would be?


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## Jo Ellen

Because when you're walking both of them, you're not as tuned in to Sam so you don't react as quickly? Maybe you're not able to break Sam's focus as quickly or as early as you need to in order to distract him to other behaviors when you're having to pay attention to both dogs.


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## missmarstar

Yes, I'm sure you're right Jo. I'm going to continue only walking them separately until I feel this issue is better resolved. Hey, I could always use the extra exercise too.. bathing suit season's right around the corner


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## tippykayak

Or because having Dillon around means more energy which means quicker shifts in mood. Dillon may be slightly excited, which Sam misinterprets and feeds off of.


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## missmarstar

That's also a possibility Brian. Although Dillon is generally un-phased by dogs in their yards. He tends to ignore them, or if the dog is really barking its head off at him, he usually starts to walk faster to pass them quickly. But yes, just him being there is probably adding energy either way.


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## Finn's Fan

Marlene, I'm glad you decided against the bark collar. To have Sam associate that kind of correction with reacting to other dogs would likely just escalate the fearful aggression and reinstate for him that there's something to be scared about! Focusing his attention away on you, whether it's crossing the street or stopping/sitting/looking at you/getting treat while another dog goes by is a more humane and ultimately more effective way to go. Fingers crossed that daycare for a few hours goes well for Sam and you get some good strategies from the daycare provider.


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## missmarstar

Yea I definitely decided I'd much rather find a better way. I am also very anxious to know how Sam does at daycare.... I'll be able to find out if this is all leash aggression or just dog aggression in general. I really hope its just leash related. fingers crossed...


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## missmarstar

I'm about to leave and take Sam to daycare.. please everyone wish us luck today!!!


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## Debles

Well, how did he do? I saw your zoo pics....

Gunner has the fear aggression problem too. We just worked with the positive obedience and also if he starts to bark at a dog in a fence, I say "Leave it" and he is fine. We also use the positive redirection when we see another walker with a dog.

I am anxious to hear how he did. I would be scared to death to take Gunner to daycare with dogs he doesn't know. Of course if I wasn't there, he might be fine.


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## davew

missmarstar said:


> I thought Sam was pretty unaffected by his dog attack at first.. it really saddens me to see these effects now, and I know it is definitely related.


As a matter of interest, have you had anyone else walk Sam?

In my experience, dogs don't generally recall previous bad experiences - but owners do, and Sam may well be sensing your change in stress or attention level.

If you can trust - REALLY trust - Sam not to behave that way, I suspect he won't.


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