# Sticky  What Exactly Is An "English" Golden Retriever? by Bev Brown



## eeneymeanymineymo

Well, I guess no one else thinks this article is worthy of mentioning!


----------



## Pointgold

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> Well, I guess no one else thinks this article is worthy of mentioning!


I do. I missed seeing it posted. I know Bev, and she did a great job with the article - it is great.


----------



## Oaklys Dad

I need more time to give a thorough read but from a quick review it seems exactly as I view things. I loved the pictures of how the breed has changed over the years.

The book "Ultimate Golden Retriever" also has interesting comparisons between European and American judges on Euro and American dogs. It is probably a little dated now but still interesting.


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

I just wish with all the discussions about white goldens, English vs. American and people looking for differences between the two, that people would read this article to get a better understanding of what an English golden is. And it is NOT about color! They are GOLDEN retrievers.


----------



## Tahnee GR

Excellent article, and I am glad to see it is a sticky.


----------



## AlanK

Great and very informing article.


----------



## annef

Very good article. I wrote one of the chapters in the 'Ulimate Golden Reriever' book and the publishers were very keen that the differences between the breed in the US and the UK should be included. Annef


----------



## mylissyk

annef said:


> Very good article. I wrote one of the chapters in the 'Ulimate Golden Reriever' book and the publishers were very keen that the differences between the breed in the US and the UK should be included. Annef



Could you give us a short version of the differences between US and UK Goldens?


----------



## Topi

That is a great artical, I loved the pictures of the Goldens through the years!

The ultimate Golden Retriever is a wonderful book and it gives a good overview of the different Golden Retriever lines in Europe and the US.


----------



## KellyH

Love this. My puppy is coming home in a few weeks and I was so excited to see that one of the pictures in this article was a Linirgor dog from Linsey and Irene Dunbar in Scotland. My puppy is the daughter of a Linirgor dog - Linirgor Macallan - owned and bred by Sandy McFarland at Timberee Goldens in Colorado, who was brought over from Scotland. Sorry, just had to mention it.


----------



## annef

The breed standards are different and so goldens in the US are bigger and darker with slightly different shaped heads. The presentation in the show ring is different with no trimming around the neck and shoulders (as I understand) In the UK the neck and shoulders are trimmed to ensure the dog has a clean outline but I have to say I think many dogs are overtrimmed and this is very evident when I have judged in Europe. Cream is allowed in the UK standard and there are many cream dogs in the ring but also some very dark gold ones. Mahogony(dark red) is not allowed in the UK standard but we have a working dog here who is quite close to that colour!! Annef


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

Thank you for making this article a sticky and I do hope everyone has a chance to read the article and learn from it!


----------



## mylissyk

annef said:


> The breed standards are different and so goldens in the US are bigger and darker with slightly different shaped heads. The presentation in the show ring is different with no trimming around the neck and shoulders (as I understand) In the UK the neck and shoulders are trimmed to ensure the dog has a clean outline but I have to say I think many dogs are overtrimmed and this is very evident when I have judged in Europe. Cream is allowed in the UK standard and there are many cream dogs in the ring but also some very dark gold ones. Mahogony(dark red) is not allowed in the UK standard but we have a working dog here who is quite close to that colour!! Annef


Thank you for the info.


----------



## GoldStandardKennel

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> I just wish with all the discussions about white goldens, English vs. American and people looking for differences between the two, that people would read this article to get a better understanding of what an English golden is. And it is NOT about color! They are GOLDEN retrievers.


I agree! Here is the problem people are running into with the English Goldens...if they are not imported from GOOD bloodlines, they still aren't going to be any better. And since the good kennels in Europe are so hesitant to export their dogs to the U.S. because they KNOW how people get their hands on a great dog and breed it to death just for profit, most of the puppies you see advertised as "IMPORTED English Cream!" are really the worst of the worst. However, a true English imported from the right lines is beautiful, smart, and (most times) healthy. 

Bottom line: There are good breeders of American Goldens and good breeders of the English Goldens. You just have to do your homework to find them. 

Something else I just want to throw in though... There IS a difference between the English and the American Golden Retriever! The most obvious is color, but their eye shape, bone structure, head, and coat texture are also different. I have also seen a pretty large difference in temperament...even among 8-week-old puppies. 

Anyway, I guess it all comes down to what you prefer. Do your homework, and make sure you are getting the best bloodlines and a puppy raised in the best possible environment. 

Best of luck in your search for your next pet!!


----------



## aretamay

Excellent read. I bookmarked it for my DH.


----------



## Bailey'sMom

What a great article, thanks! My Bailey is an English Cream


----------



## youhaloo

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> Well, I guess no one else thinks this article is worthy of mentioning!


I do and think it is an excellent article!


----------



## Mekordas

*English Creams*

Has anyone ever purchased an English Cream from the Florida Breeder Lakeside champion Goldens in Florida?

Thanks


----------



## myboybailey

Thank you for sharing this wonderful article. I had an additional question, What is a fair price to pay for a puppy golden retriever that is white in color? What to look for in a breeder? I live in the San Diego area. I am not ready to get another golden at this time. I am in the grieving process, my lovely best friend Bailey just past away and this is a great place to talk to other friends who have gone through the same loss. Thank You Wes


----------



## myboybailey

*Wonderful Article/Loss*

Thank you for sharing this wonderful article. I had an additional question, What is a fair price to pay for a puppy golden retriever that is white in color? What to look for in a breeder? I live in the San Diego area. I am not ready to get another golden at this time. I am in the grieving process, my lovely best friend Bailey just past away and this is a great place to talk to other friends who have gone through the same loss. Thank You Wes


----------



## Shalva

the color is actually registered as light gold... most will refer to them as cream they are not white, they do have color and many will get darker as they get older ... and they should cost you no more than any other golden retriever in your area... right now it seems the going price is around 1500 depending on where ou live.... the requirements for a breeder of english style dogs are the same as they are for american style goldens... clearances for the big four etc. there is a sticky here that talks about what to look for in a breeder those same requirements follow over... 

I would stay far away from breeders who advertise, english creme, white, platinum, snow or any other silly word. These dogs are exactly the same as other goldens healthwise and temperament wise... if you prefer the look of an english/european dog that is fine... I personally do as well... but don't fall for any of the lies about them being healthier or having better temperaments or longer lives.


----------



## myboybailey

*Wonderful Article*

Hi Bev

Thanks for the wonderful article.

Wes


----------



## Gwen_Dandridge

_I have also seen a pretty large difference in temperament...even among 8-week-old puppies. _

So what is the difference in temperament?


----------



## PepAyotte

*Positive recommendation for an "English/Euro/British Golden"???*

For those of us who like the look of a blonder, shorter coat, with the impressive block heads and aren't looking for anything more then a healthy,well rounded family dog is there any breeders out there anyone can recommend??? I'm reading all this negative feedback of the terminoligy of the "English Creme Golden Retriever" but unfortunately for me with alot of the breeders i have been researching, i like the look of some of their dogs! Dont get me wrong i definitely still want all the OFA clearances but i have yet to find any breeders who dont have negative feedback on here...

Help


----------



## MikaTallulah

PepAyotte said:


> For those of us who like the look of a blonder, shorter coat, with the impressive block heads and aren't looking for anything more then a healthy,well rounded family dog is there any breeders out there anyone can recommend??? I'm reading all this negative feedback of the terminoligy of the "English Creme Golden Retriever" but unfortunately for me with alot of the breeders i have been researching, i like the look of some of their dogs! Dont get me wrong i definitely still want all the OFA clearances but i have yet to find any breeders who dont have negative feedback on here...
> 
> Help


I know of reputable breeders and also a few are members here who bred lighter shaded golden. Some of which have already responded to this thread. They do exist


----------



## PepAyotte

MikaTallulah said:


> I know of reputable breeders and also a few are members here who bred lighter shaded golden. Some of which have already responded to this thread. They do exist


Are any of the breeders you know anywhere near the New England area and if so can you share the name(s) of the farms? Thank you I greatly appreciate it!


----------



## Shalva

PepAyotte said:


> Are any of the breeders you know anywhere near the New England area and if so can you share the name(s) of the farms? Thank you I greatly appreciate it!


I am personally planning a litter for late spring 2013 and am starting my waiting list at this time. I am in Northern New England. I know that Trowsnest Goldens also in NH just did a breeding a couple weeks ago and I talked to her today and she is waiting to see if her girl is pregnant....


----------



## Nairb

PepAyotte said:


> For those of us who like the look of a blonder, shorter coat, with the impressive block heads and aren't looking for anything more then a healthy,well rounded family dog is there any breeders out there anyone can recommend??? I'm reading all this negative feedback of the terminoligy of the "English Creme Golden Retriever" but unfortunately for me with alot of the breeders i have been researching, i like the look of some of their dogs! Dont get me wrong i definitely still want all the OFA clearances but i have yet to find any breeders who dont have negative feedback on here...
> 
> Help


Chances are, you won't find many breeders who advertise "English Creme" who can provide all of the clearances.


----------



## Piper&Co.

I have both cream and reds and their temperaments are almost identical. I do find the whites like to lay around and be lazy more than the reds but temperament wise, they are all pretty similar. I believe temperament comes from the breeding and raising of the puppy and how it learns to act. The breed of the dog does obviously apply but a golden retriever is still a golden retriever no matter what color it is. I know when I advertise puppies I state that they are English cream goldens so that when people find us, they know that there is a difference between the Americans and Europeans. Many people who we run into and are interested in the dogs have never seen or heard of them. It is a shame that I had seen someone say most European imported dogs are only used to breed and that's it and that if it says English cream to watch out. That is not the case. Our dogs are certified, of age and are from Europe. The breeders we've dealt with over there are cautious of sending their puppies over to America for that purpose. In my opinion, if a breeder from Europe ships a dog over to America, it is irresponsible. My stud from holland and my new puppy from Croatia were both from exquisite lines. We flew over to Europe to pick up both of them as puppies so that they were flying under our seats with us instead of being locked up in cargo. Not all breeders of the creams are the same. They are just starting to become really popular so more people are trying to breed them. We take amazing care of our puppies and dogs and breed the creams because we prefer the look better than the reds which we have previously bred. I love the article posted and it could really help everyone in this forum. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## drofen

Pups from Holland and Croatia? Very cool. Do have a pedigree or a website for your breeding operation where we can learn more?


----------



## LJack

Piper&Co. said:


> I do find the *whites* like to lay around and be lazy more than the reds but temperament wise, they are all pretty similar. .... The breed of the dog does obviously apply but a golden retriever is still a golden retriever no matter what color it is. I know when I advertise puppies I state that they are English *cream* goldens so that when people find us, they know that there is a difference between the Americans and Europeans. ... It is a shame that I had seen someone say most European imported dogs are only used to breed and that's it and that if it says English *cream* to watch out. That is not the case. Our dogs are certified, of age and are from Europe. ...Not all breeders of the *creams* are the same. ...I love the article posted and it could really help everyone in this forum.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I agree that the article is fabulous and a great resource to anyone who is iterested in the Eglish Style golden. 

It is a sad truth that there are a whole host of "greeders" out there looking to cash in on the latest dog fads. This has been and I fear will always be the case. I always think back to Saint Bernards after Beethoven and Chihuahuas after Taco Bell and Paris Hilton.

I have such a huge respect for anyone in the US who is engaged in breeding English Style dogs in a way that still upholds the GRCA Code of Ethics. It is not easy and even more difficult to differentiate yourself from the greeders who have flashy websites and can also boast of imported dogs, no matter the quality because the color has become the focus. 

This is why, it would be wise for anyone ethically breeding English Style goldens to maket them a such and to leave the color out of the equation. Yes, cream is an acceptable color in the UK and everyone is always going to have their own preference, thank god for the rainbow of beautiful shades that our lovely breed comes in. So, breed what you like, what is an improvement, what is good structure, what is good temperament, what is great trainability/work ethic, what has full clearances, what is great bloodlines and leave marketing by color to those who are only have Cream as a focus. For as you said, a "golden retriever is still a golden retriever no matter what color it is."

On a side note the color Cream/Creme is an allowable color in the Candian and UK standards, White is not a permissible in any registry or even a genetically possible color for the Golden Retriever. As such GRCA even has a cautionary letter on their website about this term.


----------



## SheetsSM

Piper&Co. said:


> It is a shame that I had seen someone say most European imported dogs are only used to breed and that's it and that if it says English cream to watch out. That is not the case. Our dogs are certified, of age and are from Europe.


Sad to say this breeder is just another one breeding for color. Selling pups on kijiji for $2K: 

Sire (Dutch):
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
Missing hips & elbows, has a full sibling with elbow dysplasia
Pedigree: Moondust Valentino
Dam (Paris):
Pedigree: Piper & Co.'s Pretty Paris
No record in OFA, her mom Piper (also owned by the breeder) was bred twice before she was two


----------



## drofen

SheetsSM said:


> Sad to say this breeder is just another one breeding for color. Selling pups on kijiji for $2K:
> 
> Sire (Dutch):
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> Missing hips & elbows, has a full sibling with elbow dysplasia
> Pedigree: Moondust Valentino
> Dam (Paris):
> Pedigree: Piper & Co.'s Pretty Paris
> No record in OFA, her mom Piper (also owned by the breeder) was bred twice before she was two


Nice work, it sure looks like the same person. I remember googling quite a bit back when she was posting because I suspected this.


----------



## mrbojangles

I have owned Golden Retrievers as pets (primarily, although my first could have gotten her certification as a Field dog) my whole life; and that's 40 years. I am not a breeder, nor do I show my dogs. However, I do have an opinion on the "English Creme" golden.
My first golden lived 17 years, having gone through breast cancer, constant ear problems, etc. She was the love of my young life and an amazing dog. She got very senile at the end and I was in the second trimester of my pregnancy when she started acting strange. For example, if I was sitting in a Barcalounger type chair, she would circle the chair for like an hour. If we attempted to put her outside, which was lovely, she would bang her head against the French doors until we finally let her in. Then she'd start circling again. 

I finally asked my dad if she could live with them for awhile. They had a great place; she loved it. She had been passed around a lot in her life when I would move, for example, friends would watch her and she was chill with everything. This is getting into an area where I should be posting in rainbow bridge, so I'll stop.

My 2nd golden (really my 3rd, but...) was a happy girl who probably did not get the attention she deserved, as I had two kids back to back and was busy. However, she was aways a part of our lives. She keeled over with pancreatic cancer when she was just 6! My third died suddenly of acute liver cancer at (barely) nine.

So, this is how I ended up with my "white" golden retriever, which I have begun just calling her when people ask. I googled cancer and golden retrievers and it lead me to considering bloodlines from outside the U.S. and then I fell in love with the color and that was that.

I was told by the breeder that the "English Creme" (which I refuse to call her) had a boxier head, was shorter in statue, and was chesty. All these things have been true. She is lucky enough to have a mom on disability for the last couple of years, and, living in Oregon got to go hiking every time she walked out the door. There was snow sometimes, but the river, in the summer, was her favorite.

Other than the physical characteristics, I have noticed some behavioral differences. However, I have to caution the reader of this post that I have pretty much been around her 24/7 for her first 2 1/2 years, so I've had a lot more time for observation. Still...
she is not like the other goldens I've had. She is spoiled (I know) but very willful. She does not usually come when called even thought I've done my best to train her to do so.

She is more of a baby than my other goldens. And, she has a serious habit of watching TV. I have seen her concentrate on a show for more than an hour. Even if it doesn't include animals. However, God forbid if an animal shows up or even a small image of an animal, i.e. a figurine on a desk - she knows and she BARKS. I, thankfully, am able to control this behavior by making her go into her time out area or crate; however, if I've had a boring day myself I feel kind of like, well, let her get her ya-ya's out cuz I certainly haven't done anything this day to engage you... but I moved, and now the TV is just on a stand and if she goes to the second level and tries to touch the dog/cat/HR Puffin' Stuff/whatever I'm f**cked.
Yep, she definitely has a different personality than I'm used to. However, temper this with the knowledge that I'm around her all the time and she's more of a focal point for me now that I'm an empty nester.
Still, I think mine is different. I love her to death, of course, but she seems more of her own "person" than my other goldens. Despite the fact that she was diagnosed with juvenile cataracts and thus I had to have her spayed, she has the eyesight of an eagle.
Having seen her play (Bend, Oregon, where every unusual breed was represented) with other goldens; I, personally, think the prettiest color is light golden. With a little bit longer legs than mine. But that's just taste, and I wouldn't trade my (English Creme/White Golden/blah blah blah) for anything. Because in the end, it all comes down to personality, right?

And that's a crap shoot. But... they're all lovable, hey?


----------



## Jtesk

Thanks for the article.


----------



## Coby Love

*Great Article.*

Thank you for posting this! The history is amazing. What a special breed. My coby was pretty light gold. I loved his color. He was by no means "cream". I do tend to like the lighter coats but realized health and temperament are far more important. 

If you have any access to breeder information in Northern California, or even southern California, I would appreciate it. Thank you!



eeneymeanymineymo said:


> *I would like to see this article included as a sticky on this forum:
> 
> http://www.englishgoldens.net/pdf/WhatExactlyIsAnEnglishGoldenRetriever.pdf
> 
> 
> Perhaps this article written by Bev Brown would be of interest to those looking for English golden retriever puppies and the terms White, Platinum, Cream and American Red being used by breeders to give those puppy buyers a better understanding of the Golden Retriever Breed Standards in the US, Canada and Europe? I think it is an excellent article. *


----------



## Susan: w/ Summit we climb

mrbojangles said:


> I have owned Golden Retrievers as pets (primarily, although my first could have gotten her certification as a Field dog) my whole life; and that's 40 years. I am not a breeder, nor do I show my dogs. However, I do have an opinion on the "English Creme" golden.
> My first golden lived 17 years, having gone through breast cancer, constant ear problems, etc. She was the love of my young life and an amazing dog. She got very senile at the end and I was in the second trimester of my pregnancy when she started acting strange. For example, if I was sitting in a Barcalounger type chair, she would circle the chair for like an hour. If we attempted to put her outside, which was lovely, she would bang her head against the French doors until we finally let her in. Then she'd start circling again.
> 
> I finally asked my dad if she could live with them for awhile. They had a great place; she loved it. She had been passed around a lot in her life when I would move, for example, friends would watch her and she was chill with everything. This is getting into an area where I should be posting in rainbow bridge, so I'll stop.
> 
> My 2nd golden (really my 3rd, but...) was a happy girl who probably did not get the attention she deserved, as I had two kids back to back and was busy. However, she was aways a part of our lives. She keeled over with pancreatic cancer when she was just 6! My third died suddenly of acute liver cancer at (barely) nine.
> 
> So, this is how I ended up with my "white" golden retriever, which I have begun just calling her when people ask. I googled cancer and golden retrievers and it lead me to considering bloodlines from outside the U.S. and then I fell in love with the color and that was that.
> 
> I was told by the breeder that the "English Creme" (which I refuse to call her) had a boxier head, was shorter in statue, and was chesty. All these things have been true. She is lucky enough to have a mom on disability for the last couple of years, and, living in Oregon got to go hiking every time she walked out the door. There was snow sometimes, but the river, in the summer, was her favorite.
> 
> Other than the physical characteristics, I have noticed some behavioral differences. However, I have to caution the reader of this post that I have pretty much been around her 24/7 for her first 2 1/2 years, so I've had a lot more time for observation. Still...
> she is not like the other goldens I've had. She is spoiled (I know) but very willful. She does not usually come when called even thought I've done my best to train her to do so.
> 
> She is more of a baby than my other goldens. And, she has a serious habit of watching TV. I have seen her concentrate on a show for more than an hour. Even if it doesn't include animals. However, God forbid if an animal shows up or even a small image of an animal, i.e. a figurine on a desk - she knows and she BARKS. I, thankfully, am able to control this behavior by making her go into her time out area or crate; however, if I've had a boring day myself I feel kind of like, well, let her get her ya-ya's out cuz I certainly haven't done anything this day to engage you... but I moved, and now the TV is just on a stand and if she goes to the second level and tries to touch the dog/cat/HR Puffin' Stuff/whatever I'm f**cked.
> Yep, she definitely has a different personality than I'm used to. However, temper this with the knowledge that I'm around her all the time and she's more of a focal point for me now that I'm an empty nester.
> Still, I think mine is different. I love her to death, of course, but she seems more of her own "person" than my other goldens. Despite the fact that she was diagnosed with juvenile cataracts and thus I had to have her spayed, she has the eyesight of an eagle.
> Having seen her play (Bend, Oregon, where every unusual breed was represented) with other goldens; I, personally, think the prettiest color is light golden. With a little bit longer legs than mine. But that's just taste, and I wouldn't trade my (English Creme/White Golden/blah blah blah) for anything. Because in the end, it all comes down to personality, right?
> 
> And that's a crap shoot. But... they're all lovable, hey?



My Jet comes right away when called, from around the corner (in our back yard) or closer. He obeys other commands immediately.

It is true that Jet behaves more like a baby than any other Golden we've owned, but I have no reason to think that has anything to do with his color. He is improving gradually.

I have trouble with the idea that our dogs' behavior is related to their color. I think it's more likely that the choices we made when training them and afterwards explain their behavior.


----------



## jvclute

Great article! I never really knew the history of Goldens. We stumbled on an English type and I just fell in love with the blocky head and less fur... All goldens are gorgeous to me and I loved the photo showing the color range! Thanks for posting.


----------



## progvsmetal

Great article. Have been seeing breeders emphasizing English cream goldens..etc...and some with giant price tags...$2000 on up. 

This is the sales pitch that I've seen show up. 



> #1 Studies prove that the European Cream Retriever does not carry the Lymphoma Cancer gene that has plagued regular Golden Retrievers for years!
> #2 The English Cream Golden Retriever lives a longer healthier life compared to the regular Golden Retriever!
> #3 They are calmer more responsive and easier to train then regular Golden Retrievers!


My concern. Breeders breeding for $$$$s and selling a gimmick....cancer free goldens?


----------



## Coby Love

This is terrible. I can't believe people will maximize on our fears of cancer in goldens. 



progvsmetal said:


> Great article. Have been seeing breeders emphasizing English cream goldens..etc...and some with giant price tags...$2000 on up.
> 
> This is the sales pitch that I've seen show up.
> 
> 
> 
> My concern. Breeders breeding for $$$$s and selling a gimmick....cancer free goldens?


----------



## AngelCoopersMom

Our first golden was a family member/pet if he must be called that. Now that he is gone, we are looking for a new member. My husband tends to like the white/cream goldens where I like Cooper's look. He was so incredibly soft. How is the texture of white/cream golden hair? The ones I've felt was more coarse and not really soft.


----------



## Cpc1972

AngelCoopersMom said:


> Our first golden was a family member/pet if he must be called that. Now that he is gone, we are looking for a new member. My husband tends to like the white/cream goldens where I like Cooper's look. He was so incredibly soft. How is the texture of white/cream golden hair? The ones I've felt was more coarse and not really soft.


Our pup is 1/2 American and 1/2 what they call English. Her coat is so soft but she gets coconut oil in her food. Would you like to see a picture?


----------



## Susan: w/ Summit we climb

I have to say this: our Jet does lie down every chance he gets, and he has always done this. He does come across as lazy. He just automatically slides to the floor as soon as you start petting him. On walks, he actually lies down in the grass to urinate, and at home he drinks from the water bowl while lying down. However, even though he's lying down, he's aware of everything that's going on in our home and on our property, and he's the first one to react to anything unusual.

He is also very docile and easy to work with. He'll try to do anything you want him to, just the way you want him to do it.




> Our pup is 1/2 American and 1/2 what they call English. Her coat is so soft but she gets coconut oil in her food. Would you like to see a picture?


 Sure, we'd love to see a picture!

We have updated pictures of our pup, too. We're still trying to get a better pic of Summit.


----------



## kwhit

Chance's coat is a little more coarse, but on his chest, it's really soft. So his is kind of a combo. 

Just a heads up...there's no such thing as a "white" Golden. They might seem white, but they all have some cream in their coats. I think a lot of breeders that breed strictly for $$$$ lighten up their dogs pictures on their websites to make them look white. 

Chance is really, really light, but put him next to a truly white dog and you can tell the difference right away.


----------



## Doggonelove

Has anyone had experience with Sun Buddies Goldens in Orlando, FL?


----------



## LJack

Doggonelove said:


> Has anyone had experience with Sun Buddies Goldens in Orlando, FL?


Hi Dogonelove,
You will probably want to make your own threads in the choosing a breeder or puppy section as you likely won't get much response here buried in an unrelated thread. 

As far as Sun Buddies, I personally would run away from them as fast as I could.
For the hefty $2500 in Florida, you should expect full and verifiable certifications (at minimum hips and elbows done at 2 or older, heart by a cardiologist at 12 months or older and eye done each year). At that high price you should also expect generations of full certifications and likely would get some of the DNA tests as well. Another thing that should come at that price is a very accomplished set of parents. They should have titles way beyond the entry level CGC which I feel almost any Golden should be capable of with an owner who does basic training. American Champions, Canadian Champions, high level field or obedience titles should be in this price range or less. 
Here are some links for their dogs. 
Dad - Pedigree: Silvermine Apollo Haley's Comet
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Moms (no OFA links since they have no certifications) - Pedigree: Majestic Manor's Maddie
Pedigree: Lexi Haley's Comet

So, based on their website information, none of moms have any certifications and the boy they use for every litter only has a heart certification. 

Here is what their contract says. 
"Reasonable precautions have been taken to prevent this puppy from acquiring
Hereditary defects of the hips, elbows, eyes and heart. However, due to unknown hereditary and environmental causes of such defects, no guarantee will begiven against them."
I do not define reasonable precautions the same way they do. I think a precaution would be testing for these issues. Also, I don't consider their guarantee a guarantee at all since it requires you to return the puppy. Very few people are willing to give back a family member so, this is sometimes used as a way to have a guarantee that will never actually have to be honored.

So, it really depends on what is important to you. If a light colored puppy now is most important and you don't mind over paying by $1500-$1800, it seems like that can fit that priority. If health certifications and getting the most value is more important, I would move on in a hurry.


----------



## Prism Goldens

Blows my mind- these folks don't do anything w their dogs, and yet charge more than people who do it all. 
Not even clearances. There is absolutely positively no reason not to have heart by cardiologist, eyes every year, and hips and elbows on every animal you own.
Much less breed... bad bad idea to go there.
I'd run...


----------



## solinvictus

Definition of an English golden. 
One who lives in England


----------



## smithbad

What about lake country Holden's in michigan


----------



## smithbad

Sorry lake country goldens


----------



## SheetsSM

smithbad said:


> Sorry lake country goldens


Recommend you start your own thread to garner more replies. What I see is practitioner instead of cardiologist heart clearances, foreign clearances accomplished before the age of 2, PennHIP accomplished before the age of 2, outdated eye clearances...


----------



## Pilgrim123

In a way, I'm glad the above posts were in the wrong place, because I'd never come across this thread before. The original article was very interesting. What struck me was not the differences in colour, which had always amused me (golden retrievers in Aus and the UK are not all cream!) but the difference in the ears of the different countries' dogs shown in the photos. US dogs seem to have much smaller ears these days. Has anybody else noticed this?


----------



## 3181wly

Interesting article. Seems like a lot to do about little or nothing to me. What counts is whether a person likes what he/she sees, and enjoys the companionship. The one I'm getting looks solid white to me, but I guess it might be a tad tinted, but not to my eyes. My neighbor has 5 golden Goldens, so that is the color I'm used to seeing, but white is fine with me too. I think most folks agree that both are intelligent, relatively easy to train, nice to be around, loyal as all get out, and just plain good dog.


----------



## Zeke1

GoldStandardKennel said:


> I agree! Here is the problem people are running into with the English Goldens...if they are not imported from GOOD bloodlines, they still aren't going to be any better. And since the good kennels in Europe are so hesitant to export their dogs to the U.S. because they KNOW how people get their hands on a great dog and breed it to death just for profit, most of the puppies you see advertised as "IMPORTED English Cream!" are really the worst of the worst. However, a true English imported from the right lines is beautiful, smart, and (most times) healthy.
> 
> Bottom line: There are good breeders of American Goldens and good breeders of the English Goldens. You just have to do your homework to find them.
> 
> Something else I just want to throw in though... There IS a difference between the English and the American Golden Retriever! The most obvious is color, but their eye shape, bone structure, head, and coat texture are also different. I have also seen a pretty large difference in temperament...even among 8-week-old puppies.
> 
> Anyway, I guess it all comes down to what you prefer. Do your homework, and make sure you are getting the best bloodlines and a puppy raised in the best possible environment.
> 
> Best of luck in your search for your next pet!!




Hi! What kind of temperament differences do u know of between the more golden bs the whiter?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## marshafuzia

Great article! I really enjoyed reading this!


----------



## roxylady

GoldStandardKennel said:


> Something else I just want to throw in though... There IS a difference between the English and the American Golden Retriever! The most obvious is color, but their eye shape, bone structure, head, and coat texture are also different. I have also seen a pretty large difference in temperament...even among 8-week-old puppies.


This is the first I've noticed someone mention a difference in temperament. I have only seen a couple English in person and not long enough to tell there is much difference beyond first impressions.

Can you elaborate on the difference in temperament? Curious how this affects their appeal for being family pets as opposed to show dogs since they aren't desired for the American standard.


----------



## roxylady

Pilgrim123 said:


> In a way, I'm glad the above posts were in the wrong place, because I'd never come across this thread before. The original article was very interesting. What struck me was not the differences in colour, which had always amused me (golden retrievers in Aus and the UK are not all cream!) but the difference in the ears of the different countries' dogs shown in the photos. US dogs seem to have much smaller ears these days. Has anybody else noticed this?


I've noticed the ears seem to be looking smaller... at least compared to Goldens I was first drawn to many years ago.


----------



## Piper_the_goldenpuppy

roxylady said:


> This is the first I've noticed someone mention a difference in temperament. I have only seen a couple English in person and not long enough to tell there is much difference beyond first impressions.
> 
> Can you elaborate on the difference in temperament? Curious how this affects their appeal for being family pets as opposed to show dogs since they aren't desired for the American standard.


There isn't any difference in temperament between English GRs and American style GRs. Same breed. Different lines in general may have different temperaments (field vs conformation GRs for example, with the former being more energetic and needing more of a "job" to do), but otherwise there is not a difference. Its a total myth that English GRs have a softer temperament than American GRs. If bred to breed standard(s) either in the US, Canada, across the pond, or anywhere else, their temperaments should be the same.


----------



## LJack

I agree. The difference in temperament bad breeders cite is bunk. So many would have you believe they European bred dogs are born as fully trained mature therapy dogs.

There are absolutely differences is temperament within families of dogs. Issues like fear and aggression have an inheritable components. I have seen more European bred families of dogs with fear problems than I have American families of dogs but that does not mean all the dogs from a different country are inherently fearful. 

I have American bred, European bred and blended pedigree dogs. High highest energy dog is my Italian. She can exhaust my 3 other dogs in play and still be ready for more.


----------



## ticktock

*maybe*



eeneymeanymineymo said:


> I just wish with all the discussions about white goldens, English vs. American and people looking for differences between the two, that people would read this article to get a better understanding of what an English golden is. And it is NOT about color! They are GOLDEN retrievers.


Your article clearly states the white color will be penalized as far as dog shows go.
The color of a golden retriever is in their name, its pretty simple. I consider the white ones to be white retrievers or English retrievers, they obviously are not golden.
Sorry, I look at a white retriever as a modified golden. Yes, its from the same breed family, but it has been mutated.


----------



## jenherrin

ticktock said:


> I consider the white ones to be white retrievers or English retrievers, they obviously are not golden.


If you have ever seen a WHITE golden retriever, then it wasn't a pure-bred golden retriever. A Westie is white. A Samoyed is white. Golden retrievers can be quite pale, but they are not _white_ (just as yellow Labs can be very pale, but no one calls them "white Labs"). Not a mutation, not albinism, just variations of the _e/e_ genotype. They certainly have not been "modified"!


----------



## TexasTLCGoldens

*Great Article*

Seen this article several times before and it's a really good, if long read. If you are looking for full details it's a great thing to read and re-read.


I wrote up something MUCH shorter that people in a hurry may enjoy that does not get buried quite so much in the history aspect. I also go into the validity the differing "statistics" between and American and European Golden Retrievers. It's a relatively short read and I hope, informative.


----------



## watterdog

Ok..... my 2 cents:
I have had 7 Goldens; 3 have been the "European" type. *I love them all.* All have been very sweet, but with distinct personalities.... like any dog.

I will say (and perhaps it is only coincidence), my Europeans have all been smaller in size, and much calmer in temperament, especially when puppies. Also, their coats are without the heavy undercoat. This makes it easy for me to groom them myself. All of my American Goldens have had beautiful coats, but so thick; I had to have them groomed by a professional. Both shed a TON, but like the sign says... _"dog hair is part of the decor"._

Because of the the ease of care and calm temperament, when the time comes for me to acquire another dog, it will be one of European lineage. Of course, many here will dispute everything I have said, but I have to go by my own experience.


----------



## gsk8

This was a great article and I enjoyed the photos as well! One of the reasons I decided to get an "English" is because I read and was told that they tend to be a little more "chill". That remains to be seen as my pup is only four months, but I'll love him no matter what!


----------



## Peri29

Just have been last week telling a forum member here that I find dark gold /light mahogany GRs always better in temperament. It may be just a coincidence but among the ones I rescued , the English GRs and especially those of field class are normally a little more hyperactive till they are 3-4 years old which is normal and than they become a count / or a countesse. Same is valid with English Setters. Once they reach age 3, you have a Prince or a Princesse. 
And soon an English Golden Retriever from Istanbul will join a family from this forum through Evergreen Rescue)


----------



## LJack

I have both and while there are some differences, I think that has to do more with the individual family of dogs, not where they came from. My Europe’s bred girls (mother and daughter) are definitely much higher activity level and busier than my American bred girls (also mother and daughter). 

There is just too much misinformation out there on European bred dogs.


----------

