# "Chaos" Rush Hill's Runnin' Amuck at Aberland



## MaddieMagoo

Hi all...I wanted to post on here and see what you all think about him. I think he is a TRUE Golden and I would do anything to get a puppy from a nice bitch, sired by him. Just wanted to see what you all thought about him as well!


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## MaddieMagoo

OOPS! I'm kicking myself for goofing up his name! It's supposed to be Abelard** and Run'n! Sorry!


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## LJack

I have not had the pleasure of seeing this boy in person. Looks awesome from his pics. He is producing a lot of really lovely puppies. Two of the top showing bitches (Groovy and Sydney) are both his. My only concern which I have about a lot of nice boys is if you buy to breed it can become difficult to get away from PSS (popular sire syndrome). I come from cats originally (which are more inclined to this problem because housing a cat stud is a huge pain) and this can be a difficulty when you look in 5 to 10 years and everyone has the same line. 
If you are just looking for a pet, no worries. It does not matter. If you are looking to breed it might be a consideration. 
I do love that at his age he went best opposite at the 2011 national specialty. I have a soft spot for veterans that can still run with the young dogs and whip them!


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## Retrieverlover

Saw Chaos at the GRCA 2012 a couple of weeks ago and I really like him. He was BOS, his daughter Sydney BOB and a Chaos son was BOW.


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## chipstone

I really like this dog...my very good friend was a top 20 judge at last year's national and she was happily surprised by how nice of a dog he truly is. 
Would love to breed to him but just worry about the longevity in those lines...


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## KeaColorado

I saw Groovy at the Cheyenne show last September, and she was gorgeous. Kea didn't stand a chance against her 

Pedigree: BISS GCH Scion Hott Pants RN SDHF BISS

My only concern would be that he goes back to Rush Hill's Haagen-Dazs, and I'm guessing it would be hard to find a bitch not somehow related if you plan on breeding. I'm a total newbie and still learning myself.


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## Iris

*Longevity in the line*

Can I anyone be more specific? You can pm me if that is better. I have a dog who is related. Thanks


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## quilter

KeaColorado said:


> My only concern would be that he goes back to Rush Hill's Haagen-Dazs, and I'm guessing it would be hard to find a bitch not somehow related. I also agree with the concerns about longevity in that line. I'm a total newbie and still learning myself


Can you tell us more? I don't see any concerns in the pedigree. Oddly, though, longevity isn't something I am interested in. I've had a couple of dogs that lived long, not-so-healthy lives. 

LJack - Your dog is gorgeous. I mean to say that every time you post.


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## Iris

*bumping this up*

just wondering if anyone can respond to the inquiries about longevity in the line. Thanks!


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## HiTideGoldens

If you have questions I would suggest contacting your breeder. They will be most familiar with your dog's pedigree and would be able to answer questions. I would also caution people from posting rumors or speculation on this type of issue, it is not fair to the breeder/owner of the dog that is not here to answer such questions and not a good thing to put out on the Internet based on rumors.


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## JDandBigAm

Would you consider a Chaos grand puppy? I'm looking at a breeding coming up in August.


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## Nairb

Why is longevity of various lines off limits here? I didn't see a similar warning this morning when the life span of some Topbrass dogs was being discussed in another thread. I don't have any reason to question the lines being discussed in this thread. I just don't understand the reason for the censorship. 


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## KeaColorado

LJack said:


> My only concern which I have about a lot of nice boys is if you buy to breed it can become difficult to get away from PSS (popular sire syndrome). I come from cats originally (which are more inclined to this problem because housing a cat stud is a huge pain) and this can be a difficulty when you look in 5 to 10 years and everyone has the same line.
> If you are just looking for a pet, no worries. It does not matter. If you are looking to breed it might be a consideration.
> I do love that at his age he went best opposite at the 2011 national specialty. I have a soft spot for veterans that can still run with the young dogs and whip them!


Sorry, to clarify: my previous comment was reflecting this one regarding popular sire syndrome - If breeding is not on the radar for you/your breeder, then you'd be lucky to have a Chaos pup!


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## GoldensGirl

Nairb said:


> Why is longevity of various lines off limits here? I didn't see a similar warning this morning when the life span of some Topbrass dogs was being discussed in another thread. I don't have any reason to question the lines being discussed in this thread. I just don't understand the reason for the censorship.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


There is no censorship that I am aware of. People choose what they discuss in a public setting.


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## Nairb

GoldensGirl said:


> There is no censorship that I am aware of. People choose what they discuss in a public setting.


Censorship may have been too strong of a word, but when a mod cautions about content, it tends to have that effect. I just don't understand why these cautionary statements are only issued when a certain select group of breeders are being discussed. 

As I mentioned earlier, I didn't see a similar comment here: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...eder-puppy/150594-advice-topbrass-litter.html

I won't lose sleep over it, I'm just trying to understand what we're allowed to discuss as it relates to breeders.


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## GoldensGirl

Nairb said:


> Censorship may have been too strong of a word, but when a mod cautions about content, it tends to have that effect. I just don't understand why these cautionary statements are only issued when a certain select group of breeders are being discussed.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, I didn't see a similar comment here: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...eder-puppy/150594-advice-topbrass-litter.html
> 
> I won't lose sleep over it, I'm just trying to understand what we're allowed to discuss as it relates to breeders.


I think I understand your concern and hope you will correct if I get it wrong. Many of us - as individuals, not necessarily as Mods - worry about the truth of what we see on the internet. Rumors can be very damaging and should be acknowledged as such, IMHO. Mind you, I am neither a breeder nor an insider in some select community. My knowledge of the Mods (among whom I know nobody in person) tells me that a high value is placed on integrity and balance. Since you mentioned a Topbrass thread, I have seen many GRF posts about Topbrass pups that questioned various aspects of the lineage, but you and I may have seen different things. People choose what they post for reasons of their own and it is not necessarily up to the Mods.

Let me put it this way: Speak truth as you know it with courtesy. If you do that. you may draw posts from people who disagree with you, but you won't violate GRF rules. If you are not sure what is acceptable, read the rules. It really is that simple and perhaps that complicated. 

Please remember that the Mods cannot be everywhere. We are drawn to different threads, based largely on our own interests and sometimes on reported posts, and we try to keep things calm and within the rules so that this remains a friendly community. 

I hope this helps.


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## HiTideGoldens

My caution was not as a moderator, but as a forum member who was giving advice to avoid posting something on the internet that cannot be taken back. I would have made the same post even if I were not a moderator. 


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## LJack

Personally I think the difference in the two threads is very fundamental. The initial poster of the other thread was asking for an opinion of a litter based on information the breeder was sharing about a death from cancer of a grand parent and made it very clear that the information came from the breeder of the litter being discussed. 

It is different when you do an open call for specific problems or health issues to an open forum. At that point you may hear real and valuable information or you get the rumor and urban legends. Honestly, how do you seperate the two especially on a forum where most of us don't really know each other and our level of expertise on this dog? Then all of this information whether true or not is out in a public site that turns up when ever this dogs name is searched since it is in the title of the thread. 

I know I like to talk dogs and at any show there are those who are all to happy to pass along what they think is wrong with a particular dog, just like gossipers everywhere no matter the subject. I think it is fair for the mods to caution especially when the dogs name is in the title. 

It is also a great idea for anyone who is interested in the pedigree of their dog to ask their breeder for health information in addition to what can be verified online.


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## Nairb

goldenjackpuppy said:


> My caution was not as a moderator, but as a forum member who was giving advice to avoid posting something on the internet that cannot be taken back.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I understand, but how do we know if you're using your mod voice, or not? 

I would argue that an unanswered question or concern does far more damage. In that Topbrass thread, many knowledgeable members provided logical explanations that may have helped to calm concerns about a particular litter. In this case, casual readers were kind of left hanging.


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## HiTideGoldens

I am not clear what you are asking or what "damage" you are referring to. Moderators are allowed to participate in threads on the forum. We are only asked to step back when things get heated. In this situation I - as a forum member- don't think it's fair to discuss rumors related to a particular line or dog. That is why I suggested she contact the breeder of her dog with specific questions. 


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## GoldensGirl

Nairb said:


> I understand, but how do we if you're using your mod voice, or not?


That's a good question and something we can try to be aware of, but please keep in mind that it's hard for us, too. We are volunteers and we are here first and foremost because we care about Goldens. When we speak as Mods, we usually cite rules.



Nairb said:


> I would argue that an unanswered question or concern does far more damage. In that Topbrass thread, many knowledgeable members provided logical explanations that may have helped to calm concerns about a particular litter. In this case, casual readers were kind of left hanging.


Much as we might like to, we can't force people to post in response to questions or concerns. 

There are a handful of Mods and thousands of members of this community. We are not omniscient and our primary goal is civility.


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## Ljilly28

A reminder that Kirby and Chaos are/were loved pets of Tonya Struble and not theoretical dogs of someone who never reads the forum is perhaps useful, and far from censorship.


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## Nairb

Ljilly28 said:


> A reminder that Kirby and Chaos are/were loved pets of Tonya Struble and not theoretical dogs of someone who never reads the forum is perhaps useful, and far from censorship.


Never mind


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## MaddieMagoo

I apologize for putting this dog's name in the subject part of this post. I had posted this so long ago and no one had really posted on him, so my apologies.

As with any line of dogs, always ask the breeder what lies behind their dogs. A forum like us "gossipers" can't always be valid. Rumors are rumors, and although they may be true, the breeder is the number 1 source.


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## HiTideGoldens

Nairb said:


> Do other breeders who are discussed read the forum? My point was obviously missed here.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


There is no way to know who reads the forum if they are not members or if their forum name is anything other than their first name/last name or their kennel name. But I have been told a number of times about breeders reading rumors (not facts) about certain dogs on here and they were very hurt and upset that someone would post something they "heard" without substantiating the statement before posting on the internet. We just need to remember, as LJilly said, these are/were beloved pets of these breeders and owners. And posting rumors is not helpful to anyone, even those looking for information.


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## Nairb

goldenjackpuppy said:


> There is no way to know who reads the forum if they are not members or if their forum name is anything other than their first name/last name or their kennel name. But I have been told a number of times about breeders reading rumors (not facts) about certain dogs on here and they were very hurt and upset that someone would post something they "heard" without substantiating the statement before posting on the internet. We just need to remember, as LJilly said, these are/were beloved pets of these breeders and owners. And posting rumors is not helpful to anyone, even those looking for information.


Never mind


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## HiTideGoldens

Nairb said:


> I don't disagree with that. I had email communications with one who was so upset, she joined the forum, but just decided to make some changes to her website and let it go. I don't know the breeder personally, but know enough about them to believe the criticisms were a bit unfair.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'm not sure which breeder you are referring to, but if it is a circumstance of missing clearances on a dog - that is verifiable in the OFA database and certainly not a "rumor." If it is a heart or eye clearance, I would still suggest to ask the breeder in case they are still behind on sending them in, but if it is hips or elbows I think it is fine to point that out on the forum.


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## Nairb

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'm not sure which breeder you are referring to, but if it is a circumstance of missing clearances on a dog - that is verifiable in the OFA database and certainly not a "rumor." If it is a heart or eye clearance, I would still suggest to ask the breeder in case they are still behind on sending them in, but if it is hips or elbows I think it is fine to point that out on the forum.


Never mind


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## MaddieMagoo

Tonya is a fantastic breeder and really proves her dogs. They are very well-structured and fit the breed standard. 

As we all know, with any breeder, problems can happen whether you line breed or outcross. It's always an uphill battle. I am not a breeder, but what I have learned from Linda and others, is an invaluable amount of information on our breed. Even the good breeders run across something in their lines, but sometimes you have to pick up the pieces to finish the puzzle


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## Megora

Never mind.


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## HiTideGoldens

Megora said:


> I wish Tonya and other owners of certain "popular sires" would post explanations and discuss the rumors - if they are readers of the forum.
> 
> Because it does concern owners when you have people start threads and hint at longevity issues or health problems from a popular sire.... and then somebody rushes in with the CONE OF SILENCE reminder. And then they have made it part of the GRF rules not to discuss rumors.  It leads to people imagining worse than actually exists and seems to confirm rumors rather than dismiss them.
> 
> I'm a bit more cynical now in my old age and I do suspect that the reason why so many rush in with the Cone of Silence is because the rumors are true and they are trying to protect the breeding stock they own. Because they are related, etc....
> 
> On another forum this past week, you had something similar going on with people hinting at another disease primarily affecting one line. Only one person was willing to provide the pedigree behind an affected dog, everyone else shut up and played dumb. And I do think it comes down to protecting their abilities to show and breed the dogs they own without people freaking out.
> 
> And I'm sure I'd do the same if I felt the risk was low that a dog of a certain line would inherit X disease or Y condition.


I don't think any breeder has an obligation to come on here and defend rumors about their dogs. While this forum serves a lot of great purposes, and I like being a part of it, if someone has a question related to a specific dog they have the ability to reach out to that breeder directly and ask - rather than relying on other people (i.e. not the breeder/owner of the dog in question) to address the rumors on the forum. I find it interesting that people are relying on Rush Hill or others to find the thread and come on here to publicly confirm or deny a rumor. If one cares so much about the issue why not contact them directly? I don't know what response you'll get but you could certainly try. 

I DO NOT think it's fair to make assumptions that the reason people (I assume you mean me since I was the one who posted in this thread) don't think it's right to post rumors is because we secretly know a rumor is accurate or are trying to defend our own dogs. I do NOT appreciate that implication as it relates to me OR my dogs. That is a very very very unfair assumption to make. And honestly, I am taking this very personally and do not appreciate anything regarding my dogs being brought into this discussion because it is completely irrelevant to whether or not rumors should be posted on the forum. I think it is unfair to post rumors because they are rumors. If something is on k9data or a breeder has it publicly on their website then I have no problem with a discussion, but rumors are just gossip. And gossip is not a good thing, particularly when it catches on like wildfire and is not based on facts. And with that I'm stepping back from this thread.


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## Megora

Discussed privately. Thanks!


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## Nairb

Never mind


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## Megora

Cone of silence....


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## Nairb

Megora said:


> "The Portable Cone of Silence" - YouTube
> 
> Cone of silence....


Never mind


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## Ljilly28

I have a hard time understanding the reaction that anyone was being censored or that a cone of silence is being protected. I think there is simply an effort to protect GRF members, whose names in real life are sitting on the GRF facebook page for anyone to obtain, from being sued for spreading damaging rumors. We love the forum, and do not want members to learn the hard way that writing inaccurate information has in the past and can in the present result in a lawsuit. Ultimately though, if you decide to write a specific rumor about a specific dog on the internet despite advice, and it is quickly cut and pasted to a file in a lawyer's office, then that is going to be a long headache with which to deal.


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## Nairb

Ljilly28 said:


> I have a hard time understanding the reaction that anyone was being censored or that a cone of silence is being protected. I think there is simply an effort to protect GRF members, whose names in real life are sitting on the GRF facebook page for anyone to obtain, from being sued for spreading damaging rumors. We love the forum, and do not want members to learn the hard way that writing inaccurate information has in the past and can in the present result in a lawsuit. Ultimately though, if you decide to write a specific rumor about a specific dog on the internet despite advice, and it is quickly cut and pasted to a file in a lawyer's office, then that is going to be a long headache with which to deal.


Never Mind


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## Rob's GRs

About the rule with the clause of rumors....... 
People may ask about things they may hear to clear things up but should not make statements based on rumor.


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## Megora

Never mind.  

I got the answer I was looking for.


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## KeaColorado

Edited by author


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## Claudia M

I do not see how discussing K9data, OFA info and breeder website info can be a lawsuit situation. The breeders themselves are the ones putting this info there. 
Thank you Megora for the "cone of silence" - haven't heard that in a looong time.


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## Megora

That show is on when I go to the gym to work out..... of course I watch it. *is geek*


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## HiTideGoldens

Claudia M said:


> I do not see how discussing K9data, OFA info and breeder website info can be a lawsuit situation. The breeders themselves are the ones putting this info there.


Not one person said that information verifiable on k9data, OFA or a breeder website would be inappropriate to discuss. In fact, I said the opposite of that statement earlier in this thread and in other threads. The only time I thought it was inappropriate was when it was hijacking another thread about a health issue of an unrelated dog. But verifiable information is not what we are discussing in this thread, here we are talking about rumors exposing people to liability, not verifiable facts.


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## GoldensGirl

KeaColorado said:


> I guess I'm a little confused as to why certain very specific topics are ok to discuss in some threads but not others. I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but as a relatively new forum member, I'm trying to better understand what's ok and what's not so I don't say the wrong things in the future and make a bunch of internet enemies.


Except for politics, topics in and of themselves are not off limits, with the exception of threads about leaving the forum that tend to just stir people up. However, the way in which a topic is discussed can be problematic, especially when passions run high. Sometimes people seem to forget that those with whom they disagree do get to present their views, provided they do so with courtesy. In general, it helps to provide references or other evidence to back up assertions and to acknowledge opinions as just that. It is also important to avoid using words that constitute an attack or stir up hostility. As has been pointed out before, everyone needs to remember that this is a publicly accessible site on the Internet and laws about slander and libel do apply.

When in doubt, read the rules and give yourself time to think about how a post might be interpreted by someone else. If it would hurt feelings or make someone angry, try to change the wording to state your position in a way that is not contentious.

Hope this helps.


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## Megora

GoldensGirl said:


> Except for politics, topics in and of themselves are not off limits, with the exception of threads about leaving the forum that tend to just stir people up. However, the way in which a topic is discussed can be problematic, especially when passions run high. *Sometimes people seem to forget that those with whom they disagree do get to present their views, provided they do so with courtesy.* *In general, it helps to provide references or other evidence to back up assertions and to acknowledge opinions as just that.* *It is also important to avoid using words that constitute an attack or stir up hostility.* As has been pointed out before, everyone needs to remember that this is a publicly accessible site on the Internet and laws about slander and libel do apply.
> 
> *When in doubt, read the rules and give yourself time to think about how a post might be interpreted by someone else. If it would hurt feelings or make someone angry, try to change the wording to state your position in a way that is not contentious.*
> 
> Hope this helps.


I agree with this, fwiw.....

I'd absolutely appreciate the bold part especially..... 

Instead of jumping into attack mode when you see something you perceive as hostile or problematic.... please think about it first. Especially when the person you direct that attack at has never shown any hostility towards you or the actual subject. The subject in this thread was definitely problematic based on what I was told privately, but my fault was actually my naivete at least where it concerns the will, honesty, and openness of other people. My goodness! I'm open and direct with how I deal with people based on how I was raised, and I generally forget that other people are not that open or trusting.  

That's why I asked several people to remove quoted text from my first comment on this thread. I'm sorry I said anything at all. Obviously there are some things which absolutely should not be discussed.


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## Nairb

Megora said:


> I agree with this, fwiw.....
> 
> I'd absolutely appreciate the bold part especially.....
> 
> Instead of jumping into attack mode when you see something you perceive as hostile or problematic.... please think about it first. Especially when the person you direct that attack at has never shown any hostility towards you or the actual subject. The subject in this thread was definitely problematic based on what I was told privately, but my fault was actually my naivete at least where it concerns the will, honesty, and openness of other people. My goodness! I'm open and direct with how I deal with people based on how I was raised, and I generally forget that other people are not that open or trusting.
> 
> That's why I asked several people to remove quoted text from my first comment on this thread. I'm sorry I said anything at all. Obviously there are some things which absolutely should not be discussed.


Never mind


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## Megora

Some things just can't be discussed, Nairb. That's the fact. !


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## Nairb

Megora said:


> Some things just can't be discussed, Nairb. That's the fact. !


Never mind


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## GoldensGirl

Megora said:


> Some things just can't be discussed, Nairb. That's the fact. !


Just about everything can be discussed, provided reasonable discretion is used. But sometimes there are consequences that go beyond the GRF and it is wise to remember that.


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## LibertyME

To clarify - 
Info found on K9data is not always posted by the owner or breeder of the dogs...it is an open database where anyone can post info.

For Example: Ive filled in data on some of the dogs in my dogs' pedigree. However Ive only filled in info that was publicly verifiable from OFA. Which would have been submitted from the owner or breeder. 



Claudia M said:


> I do not see how discussing K9data, OFA info and breeder website info can be a lawsuit situation. *The breeders themselves are the ones putting this info there. *
> Thank you Megora for the "cone of silence" - haven't heard that in a looong time.


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## Megora

GoldensGirl said:


> But sometimes there are consequences that go beyond the GRF and it is wise to remember that.


Definitey, I think this thread and the comments thereof has been fairly useful as far as clarifying why that cone of silence exists, why so many people seem very eager to hush up discussions, or questions. 

As I said, I had a set idea on what was offensive in that category prior to this discussion (people signing up on GRF with the sole purpose of using this forum just like they use Consumer Reports - ie gripe campaigns to destroy people, products, companies), but now I see.... you could apparently be telling the truth or not even telling but just asking questions and still get into trouble. So yep. I said nothing.


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## Nairb

GoldensGirl said:


> Just about everything can be discussed, provided reasonable discretion is used. But sometimes there are consequences that go beyond the GRF and it is wise to remember that.


Never mind


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## CarolinaCasey

Megora said:


> Some things just can't be discussed, Nairb. That's the fact. !


In general--- 

No, quite the opposite. I have amassed much of my knowledge from my mentors but we do it IN PRIVATE. They teach me because I have a yearning to learn and they know what they teach me is held in confidence. Not because there is some giant conspiracy but because it is a mentor/mentee relationship and because it is how things are done. John Q Public can speak with their breeders regarding anything they dream to know regarding the breeding of their dog. Doesn't that seem logical? After all, they are the ones that bred the litter...presumably in the breed for a while, and you have a relationship with them. 


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## HiTideGoldens

It has nothing to do with hushing up discussions or questions, or certain topics being "offensive." I think a big point has been missed here and made into a joke about a skit from a TV show, but that is what it is. 

I am more than happy to let people keep digging themselves into holes of potential liability by posting rumors about dogs/breeders/pedigrees. If people are then involved in litigation over the rumors posted, it will be their own fault. It is wise to remember that screenshots are often taken of posts on the forum, posts cannot be edited after a certain time period, people mention the pedigrees of their dogs on a regular basis....it is not hard to figure out a person's real name and information if you want to. People can and do use posts on the internet as evidence in lawsuits.... this is not conjecture, it is something that I have seen regularly in my career. Perhaps I am overly paranoid since I'm an attorney, but I generally feel compelled to dissuade people from exposing themselves to liability.


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## Megora

CarolinaCasey said:


> In general---
> 
> No, quite the opposite. I have amassed much of my knowledge from my mentors but we do it IN PRIVATE. They teach me because I have a yearning to learn and they know what they teach me is held in confidence. Not because there is some giant conspiracy but because it is a mentor/mentee relationship and because it is how things are done. John Q Public can speak with their breeders regarding anything they dream to know regarding the breeding of their dog. Doesn't that seem logical? After all, they are the ones that bred the litter...presumably in the breed for a while, and you have a relationship with them.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I guess I can put it this way....

Some breeders will talk trash about everyone else's dogs. You could believe everything they say, or doubt everything.

Years ago before we got Danny, a close friend of ours who is a breeder looked at pedigrees with us and absolutely looked horrified when she saw a certain big name on the pedigrees we were zeroing in on. She told us not to touch any pedigree with that certain name on it. Considering how avid she was to breed away from cancer lines, I always assumed that was why, but she herself refused to explain even in private. We were concerned, btw, because not only did that pedigree that we purchased a puppy (Danny) from have that big name behind it, but our Sammy's pedigree did as well. That big name, btw, was a totally different one that the guy discussed in this thread. You will find a bigger majority of goldens with this specific dog behind them. 

Danny's breeder was a very kind lady who would not talk about other people's dogs at all. 

Jacks' breeder when we asked them what was going on with Danny's breeder would not discuss the matter. At all. 

And of course Jacks has a lot of Gold Rush behind him, which is another discussion on hereditary issues. I saw plenty of those threads as well which were concerning. 

Bertie's breeder - I talked a goodly bit with them and while I was gently asking questions about certain lines behind Jacks (they are a wealth of knowledge on the breed and I was hoping to get what I could), I couldn't get anything at all. And even on this subject they have been evasive. 

You have a special relationship with your breeder - primarily because of your goals. And because of your "in deep" involvement with conformation and intentions to breed your dogs - whether that is Gibbs or the next puppy (hope you share the news when that happens!), you have that inside edge. You are IN the cone of silence.  

But please understand that for the other people - who are primarily pet owners - the only information we have is what is provided on open forums or discussions such as this. And even that doesn't seem possible based on fears of litigation. 

We all are very concerned about our own dogs. That's where these questions come from. Not from any desire to ruin anyone's reputation. 

The breeder in question on this thread - is somebody who I honestly thought was good based on her not being specifically focused on conformation alone.  I still am very happy with my little guy who shows a lot of promise in obedience (he's scary smart) and he has a very similar temperament/desire to please as I've seen of other dogs who come from lines with a lot of you-know-who behind them. That's why I was happy to see that dog in the pedigree as well as a few others.


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## Megora

> It is wise to remember that screenshots are often taken of posts on the forum, posts cannot be edited after a certain time period, people mention the pedigrees of their dogs on a regular basis....it is not hard to figure out a person's real name and information if you want to.


Which is why I asked you personally, Michelle, to remove the quoted text from my comment from the previous page. 

Although - now I gave it more thought and reviewed my comment as well as yours responding to my comment, it probably is best that my quoted text remain. I'd hate for it to be removed and people use their imagination as to what I said.  As far as I know the initial comment suggesting a rumor about you-know-who was made a year ago, and it wasn't me making it. I merely made a general comment based on what people said yesterday w/regards to talking about popular sires or health problems in the breed.


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## Nairb

I'm certain I didn't say anything in this thread that could be perceived slanderous, but I followed suit and deleted most of my comments. The earlier ones are more than 24 hours old. As far as I'm concerned, this thread never existed....


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## MaddieMagoo

I wanted to chime in once again and say this to hopefully make it a point.

Let's say (for those of you who want to know what is behind a line) you got to trade shoes for a day with a breeder of your choice. You were told by a friend your line or dog(s) were being discussed on this Forum and so you decide to check it out. You come to find out some people who you don't even know are slandering your line and particular stud dog left and right. 

What would YOU do? 

The thing is, not one of us is holding back information we know, we are simply choosing to not post it on an open public forum, for all we know could be RUMORS. We all know good breeders and bad breeders, who even though do clearances, don't prove their dogs, etc. Some of the top Golden breeders are very successful with their dogs in all venues our Goldens can compete in. Whether you show in the conformation ring or the performance areas, giving respect for another person's dog or line will get you farther in the Golden World than posting rumors about why your dog got cancer, because so and so's dog was in the pedigree once and that MUST be the reason why your dog died early.

This is all I'll say on this matter. All I wanted was to talk about how I like this dog!


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## Megora

Caryn - I actually agree, that is exactly why I responded the way I did on another thread.  

When I see something that I see as outright slander or attempts to destroy someone's reputation, I have contacted the breeders or people concerned to let them know. 

There is a difference between that and as I had on another thread commented on the healthy and long-lived progeny of a certain dog. I praised them and personalized the issue by pointing out I actually went out of my way to get a puppy who had a certain dog behind him. And I of course was attacked by people for slander, as though I had initialized the rumors myself.


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## Rob's GRs

GoldensGirl said:


> Except for politics, topics in and of themselves are not off limits, with the exception of threads about leaving the forum that tend to just stir people up. However, the way in which a topic is discussed can be problematic, especially when passions run high. Sometimes people seem to forget that those with whom they disagree do get to present their views, provided they do so with courtesy. In general, it helps to provide references or other evidence to back up assertions and to acknowledge opinions as just that. It is also important to avoid using words that constitute an attack or stir up hostility. As has been pointed out before, everyone needs to remember that this is a publicly accessible site on the Internet and laws about slander and libel do apply.
> 
> When in doubt, read the rules and give yourself time to think about how a post might be interpreted by someone else. If it would hurt feelings or make someone angry, try to change the wording to state your position in a way that is not contentious.
> 
> Hope this helps.


I'm just going to pop on here to basically say what was posted above is correct. Any topic, other than the ones mentioned above or listed also in the board rules , are open for discussion. Just remember to not make statements that maybe are only speculative on anything. Not only could it get someone in trouble with board rules but it could also cause further problems for them beyond this board. So it's okay to question or have a matter cleared up but it's not okay to come out and state something that you yourself are not 100 percent sure of. So basically if you're not sure of something think it out before you type it out, because is it something you want to get out with your name attached to it.


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## Megora

Rob's GRs said:


> I'm just going to pop on here to basically say what was posted above is correct. Anyt topic, other than the ones mentioned above or listed also in board rules , are open for discussion. Just remember to not make statements that maybe are only speculative on anything. Not only could it get someone in trouble with board rules but it could also cause further problems for them beyond this board. So it's okay to question or have a matter cleared up but it's not okay to come out and state something that you yourself are not 100 percent sure of. So basically if you're not sure of something think it out before you type it out, because is it something you want to get out with your name attached to it.


Rob.... this is something I've been curious about, because it seemed like there was a rather noticable change since mid-last year w/regard commentary on breeders or other touchy subjects. Was there a lawsuit threatened beyond talk on the website? 

I know there was a breeder (not the one discussed here) who openly took down names of people on the forum and intended to involve everyone in a defamation lawsuit. I don't remember much beyond that - and I saw less mentioned of that breeder, though prior to that point they had been discussed frequently and referred to as a puppy mill by several members, likely even including those rebuking me on this thread. 

Is that the reason for the change? Or has this been a steadily evolving change based on who moderates, etc? 

I have no interest in ruining anyone's reputation. If their reputation is ruined by me commenting they and others could become more active in discussing issues that involve our breed with petowners - it's well, their business.


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## Rob's GRs

It has nothing to do with who moderates, and never has. If there are/were legal issues going on I am not posting them out here, nor would I discuss them at all. No need for me to get involved amongst a dispute. As the internet keeps growing and more and more people have a greater access to it, things can be more easily seen and reviewed by anyone. So with the world as it is people need to becareful what they make statements about no matter what the topic.


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## Megora

Rob's GRs said:


> If there are/were legal issues going on I am not posting them out here, nor would I discuss them at all. No need for me to get involved amongst a dispute. As the internet keeps growing and more and more people have a greater access to it, things can be more easily seen and reviewed by anyone. So with the world as it is people need to becareful what they make statements about no matter what the topic.


The reason why I asked was it would have at least explained some of the changes that I've seen in how the forum is run, how people moderate, etc.... 

I wouldn't have asked for specifics. I was just curious if lawsuits HAVE happened or if that is a possible reason for the changes that I've seen.

Based on the statements made on that thread I read back whenever that was, it seemed very likely they were going to go through with their threat. 

To put it one way - you remember your thread (I think it was you?) on how or why people found GRF? To tell you the truth, I found GRF because of something negative somebody posted on Jacks' breeder. Of course everyone googles their own breeders to see if they've been mentioned positively or negatively online. What was said about Jacks' breeder was mild compared to some of the other items on other breeders I've read since becoming a member. 

And those are just people. 

Imagine if Blue Buffalo or Nutro or some of the other big dog food companies got it into their heads to go after online forums for slander.


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## Ljilly28

Claudia M said:


> I do not see how discussing K9data, OFA info and breeder website info can be a lawsuit situation. The breeders themselves are the ones putting this info there.


You are completely right. That is all fine. 

The only thing that is risky is stating a blatant untruth that a reasonable person would find gratutitous, irresponsible, or malicious. We have only had that happen a very few times, one of them recently.


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## Megora

Ljilly28 said:


> You are completely right. That is all fine.
> 
> The only thing that is risky is *stating a blatant untruth that a reasonable person would find gratutitous, irresponsible, or malicious.* We have only had that happen a very few times, one of them recently.


Surely people haven't done that on this thread? Even the referance made _last year_ that everyone was responding to - that was not directly stating something specific that people have not said about other lines (Ann Johnson, Gold Rush, etc). I'm not saying it is "ok" to suggest anything that cannot be proven or discussed without people flying off the handle and getting upset. I'm just thinking that the matter in this thread is quite different from the examples that I can think of where a member directly accused a non-member of wrong-doing and denigrated that non-member's operation. I have seen that happen - definitely.  The one case I can think of, someone signed up with GRF specifically to slander a breeder w/regards to an issue that the breeder had already given their side of the story elsewhere. When this person posted here, I immediately recognized the story based on what the breeder had already disclosed elsewhere. This person was threatening to sue this breeder and wanted to destroy the breeder - and I believe was going around posting outright lies about the breeder. The breeder was alerted immediately (I wasn't the only one who reacted by contacting her) and came on here to provide her side of the story or more details. That put a complete end to the entire issue. I'm probably a little too simplistic in my thinking that everything could be resolved by getting absent people to open up and present themselves when you have things posted about them, their operation, their dogs, etc.... what I suggested yesterday.


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