# Brookshire Goldens - Visited today & may have found our boy!



## KimZay (Dec 7, 2009)

Hi guys!

We just got back from Brookshire Goldens in Northborough Ma & we had a lovely visit! Met with 7 little pups & possibly our little boy. I looked up the info for the sire & dam before I headed over & everything looked good, but I admit that I still very green to this & wanted to see if anyone could look over the data for me & let me know what they think?

The breeder site is: http://www.brookshiregoldens.com/

Sire:
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=187286 
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1202723#animal 

Dam:
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=265899
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1329728#animal

If you have a moment, could you take a look?
We were really happy with our visit. Julie was very nice & the potential boy was a real sweetheart. Out of the 7 of them, he followed Julie around the most & kept winding up in my lap. 
But of course, we are really concerned with all the the health certs being up to date in the pedigree so I tried my hardest not to fall in love. 

I'd appreciate any feedback you got!
Thanks for putting up with me & all of my breeder posts! :
Kim


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I noticed that both the sire and dam have the same *father*: BIS BISS Am. Ch. Summits MR. Bojangles OS SDHF

I don't know how that effects the COI (Coefficient of Inbreeding) but I would assume it would be really high. Might want to see what our breeders think. Because I really don't know much about it, other than it should be near 12 %.


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## KimZay (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks Casey! I didn't even notice that! I was concentrating on the offa data. I've still got a ton to learn so thank you!

Hopefully there are others that can weigh in.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

The two dogs are half-siblings... in case you were not aware of that... Did the breeder talk to you about this?


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## KimZay (Dec 7, 2009)

Oh my! No she did not. Yikes! I was not aware of that or else I certainly would have asked. Actually, I wouldn't have even visited.
I looked at the k9 data sites for both of the dogs separately & did not catch the duplicate. 

Thanks. That pups out. I wish I were more knowledgeable but I am learning from my mistakes! And I appreciate all of your help!


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

CarolinaCasey said:


> I noticed that both the sire and dam have the same grandfather: BIS BISS Am. Ch. Summits MR. Bojangles OS SDHF
> 
> I don't know how that effects the COI (Coefficient of Inbreeding) but I would assume it would be really high. Might want to see what our breeders think. Because I really don't know much about it, other than it should be near 12 %.


You mean the litter, correct?

The sire and dam's father is Hobo (BIS BISS Am. Ch. Summits MR. Bojangles OS SDHF). Hobo is a top-winning golden--I would think that if the breeder did that strong of a line breeding on Hobo, then the breeder must have their reasons, and although I'm not a breeder, and other breeders can weigh in, it is probably best for the OP to ask and see what the breeding was (is) hoping to achieve.


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2009)

Good for you for asking questions!!!
You've come to the right place - there is so many knowledgeable people here that are more than willing to help.
Keep asking those questions


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## KimZay (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks you guys! Now I'm a bit confused.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

KimZay said:


> Oh my! No she did not. Yikes! I was not aware of that or else I certainly would have asked.
> I looked at the k9 data sites for both of the dogs separately & did not catch the duplicate.
> 
> Thanks. That pups out. I wish I were more knowledgeable but I am learning from my mistakes! And I appreciate all of your help!


Breeders have reasons to do that tight of a line breeding--I never had a chance to see Hobo but I heard about him from Hobo fans who thought he was a fine example of the breed. In this case, you have a situation where both sire and dam are Hobo offspring, (champion offspring too), with clearances, out of different mothers (whose pedigrees don't appear to converge in recent generations). I'm sure the breeder has a reason for the breeding--if you like the breeder, and feel a certain chemistry, there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking about what they hope to produce by going back to Hobo so heavily--if you still aren't happy, then by all means, move on, but, and I suppose breeders can chime in here, to some extent, line breeding sets a certain reliability of type regarding structure, temperament, etc. that breeders like to see.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

rappwizard said:


> You mean the litter, correct?
> 
> The sire and dam's father is Hobo (BIS BISS Am. Ch. Summits MR. Bojangles OS SDHF). Hobo is a top-winning golden--I would think that if the breeder did that strong of a line breeding on Hobo, then the breeder must have their reasons, and although I'm not a breeder, and other breeders can weigh in, it is probably best for the OP to ask and see what the breeding was (is) hoping to achieve.


Yeah, I meant that the litter would have a high COI considering the sire and dam are half siblings. 



KimZay said:


> Oh my! No she did not. Yikes! I was not aware of that or else I certainly would have asked. Actually, I wouldn't have even visited.
> I looked at the k9 data sites for both of the dogs separately & did not catch the duplicate.
> 
> Thanks. That pups out. I wish I were more knowledgeable but I am learning from my mistakes! And I appreciate all of your help!


You're learning, we all are!  I'd call or email the breeder and see what is her reasoning for the strong line-breeding.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I have met Hobo and have seen him in person. He is a wonderful, wonderful dog  I am not that familiar with his pedigree from a breeding perspective though.

I would certainly ask the breeder why she did the breeding, what she hopes to gain from this line breeding and what may be the pitfalls.

I would not rule out this puppy, just because of the half-brother/half-sister thing. COI is a guideline. I would rather have a COI of 30%, bred back on healthy long-lived dogs than a COI of 5%, where both sides of the pedigree have a history of dying young. What is in the pedigree is as important, or more important, than the COI itself. And in this case, since the dogs were not related except through Hobo, the COI may be lower than you think.

Many years ago I had an accidental brother/sister breeding. Except for one very short guy (knew that was in the pedigree), the puppies were very pretty, had wonderful temperaments and were very healthy. I believe the youngest to die was 10 years old. The COI for this litter was a little over 32%, and both parents were line-bred to boot.


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## KimZay (Dec 7, 2009)

So if the COI should be close to 12%, with the pedigree data that I have, can it be calculated to see where the pup would be on the scale (sorry if my terminology is wrong)?


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## KimZay (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks Linda. My above post was posted before I saw your reply. So the COI is not a complete deal breaker depending on what the rest of the factors of the pedigree are?

I'm going to email Julie & talk to her about it. This may sounds juvenile, but could someone please help me with exactly what questions I should ask? This is all new to me & I'm a bit overwhelmed. I want to ensure I ask the right questions that will get me the answers needed to help me with our decision.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

KimZay said:


> So if the COI should be close to 12%, with the pedigree data that I have, can it be calculated to see where the pup would be on the scale (sorry if my terminology is wrong)?


You can enter a test-breeding into k9data, but it takes weeks/month for them to do the COI calculation. It won't come up automatically. I did this recently and waited, and waited, and waited very patiently for a while. I had to stop checking obsessively! I don't think that you should rule out this litter either. 

I think Linda gave you some good questions to ask. I'm sure that you'll be fine and that the breeder will want to tell you about her choice!


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## KimZay (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks Melissa! (OMG I've been calling you Casey! Oops! Sorry!)


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

KimZay said:


> Thanks Linda. My above post was posted before I saw your reply. So the COI is not a complete deal breaker depending on what the rest of the factors of the pedigree are?
> 
> I'm going to email Julie & talk to her about it. This may sounds juvenile, but could someone please help me with exactly what questions I should ask? This is all new to me & I'm a bit overwhelmed. I want to ensure I ask the right questions that will get me the answers needed to help me with our decision.


Yup, you can tell Julie that you just noticed that the sire and dam are half-brother and half-sister and have some questions. Just be polite and let her know that you asking because you are not a breeder and are just looking for more information.

Ask her what she hoped to get from this breeding, and what she thought the pitfalls might be (every breeding carries some pitfalls). She probably knows what the COI is-I am sure she entered a test breeding on k9data.com

I am sure she won't mind your questions, as I am sure she asked herself the same questions before deciding to do the breeding.


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## SunGold (Feb 27, 2007)

Here's the COI for the litter in question: http://www.k9data.com/coi.asp?ID=354888

Edit to add that Julie has some very nice dogs and although I haven't met her in person we have shared emails back and forth and she seems like a nice woman.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

SunGold said:


> Here's the COI for the litter in question: http://www.k9data.com/coi.asp?ID=354888


and test breeding
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=354888


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## KimZay (Dec 7, 2009)

Hi Kara! Thanks! Julie was super nice! We had a really great visit!

Thanks Sammydog!

I emailed Julie & now I'm just waiting to hear back. 

I looked at the links, and honestly, I don't know how to decipher what the percentages mean. :uhoh: I'm reading an article about COI's as we speak.


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## Doolin (Jun 23, 2008)

I, like Linda, know Hobo very well and have met quite a few of his kids. While I don't know the lines very well, that is something you will have to discus with the breeder, I know the temperament and conformation qualities of Hobo fairly well.

Definitely don't rule out a puppy from this breeding. Hobo is a pretty old guy already(longevity +), something you wouldn't be able to tell from watching him in the ring. I would be willing to bet you would have great temperament in the puppies produced from this breeding.

Just my 2 cents....


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## KimZay (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks Doolin! Just waiting to hear back from Julie!


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## KimZay (Dec 7, 2009)

Just wanted to update & let you all know that I heard back from Julie. I was happy with her response, but being so uninformed about COI's, I'd like to get some feedback form those of you who are more knowledgeble on the subject.

I feel funny posting the email here. I don't want it to seem like I'm going behind her back by posting her personal emails to me. Would anyone be willing to PM me so we can chat about it?


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

My name is Julie Guay and I am the owner of Brookshire Goldens. A few comments. First to the person who posted that a COI should never be over 12%. Where are you getting your data from? I am a little baffled that you would make such a blanket statement. COI is a tool just like the other tools we breeders have to help us in deciding the perfect breeding.
Second I would like to state that my breedings are all carefully planned years in advanced. Yes my current litter is a half brother half sister breeding on the magnificent Hobo. To those that have never seen him he is everything a Golden should be. I have shared motel rooms with the dog and spent a lot of time with him.
There are many reasons why I chose to do this breeding, the main one being the longevity behind Hobo. The pedigree is filled with 11-15 year olds. That is the main appeal to me. Then temperaments. There is not a Golden with a better temperament than Hobo.
Lindsay and Chesney, the mom and dad have very few faults but many strengths. This is why I chose to do this breeding. To say a half brother half sister breeding should never be done is wrong. It should never be done by the inexperienced or those that don't know their pedigrees. After 21 years in Goldens I know my dogs and what is behind them.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

It's always nice when breeders register and answer questions directly. I for one appreciate it!


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

To those of you interested in seeing the outcome of this breeding here are two links, one for the girls and one for the boys. I got everything I was hoping to get from this breeding and more. It is one of my best litters for consistency and quality.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2030658&id=1399470392&l=f0439c28c5

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2030757&id=1399470392&l=da44f0f213

There are NO magic numbers in breeding. You research to find the best fit. Chesney was a great match for Lindsay.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I appreciate it also, thank you for posting.


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## KimZay (Dec 7, 2009)

Hi Julie!

I just emailed you back & here you are! I hope I didn't stir anything up with my post, and now I'm feeling a bit bad. Please don't think I was going behind anyone's back. I stressed that I was hesitant to post breeder info on here in a previous post but was assured that it was common practice. I apologize if I have put you in an awkward position. I hope this doesn't effect our visit today.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

People should do their homework and I think those that do will more than likely be wonderful owners...


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Not at all Kim. You are doing your homework to make an informed decision. I respect that. I just want you to have the correct facts and not what people "think" are the correct facts. I am very upfront about the things I do and welcome any questions and concerns. I mean isn't that what you go to a breeder for? No worries. I enjoyed out visit and whatever you decide is best for your family is the right decision for you.


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## KimZay (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks Julie!!!


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## LauraBella (Feb 9, 2010)

Wow! I learned a lot just eavesdropping on this thread! And, those puppy pictures are just pure heaven!!!!!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Thank you so much for coming on and posting. There are many here who, like me, are trying to learn as much as possible and appreciate the breeders who take the time to share their knowledge. I hope you'll stick around and join our group. I've only seen Hobo on TV, but even there, he is breathtaking.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Thanks for joining and adding so much to our discussion!

That was me that wrote about the COI, I've read on the forum that most COI's are around 12%, but some are much higher and others are much lower depending on the pedigree. I don't think it is a rule or a recipe for success...it all depends on what you're trying to achieve. I'm just learning, but I was just passing the information that I have learned in my post.  All in all, I think her coming here to ask questions and do homework was great. It is letting me learn more, too! I'm glad that it led you to us! 

Welcome to GRF!  We're always happy to have another great breeder here!!


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

I joined this group about a year ago but have never posted. 
Everyone that breeds dogs has more to learn. You never stop learning.
The bitch I keep from this litter is tightly bred and the plan is to outcross her to a dog with the qualities I am looking for. Then the offspring from that breeding will be bred back to a Hobo great grandson. Hobo is my favorite living male. he will be 12 this year and thinks he is a puppy. He is a silly wonderful boy. There is not much about him that I don't like.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

goldens87 said:


> I joined this group about a year ago but have never posted.
> Everyone that breeds dogs has more to learn. You never stop learning.
> The bitch I keep from this litter is tightly bred and the plan is to outcross her to a dog with the qualities I am looking for. Then the offspring from that breeding will be bred back to a Hobo great grandson. Hobo is my favorite living male. he will be 12 this year and thinks he is a puppy. He is a silly wonderful boy. There is not much about him that I don't like.


WOW. It's so interesting to hear plans that span several generations. I hope you will keep us updated as to the bitch you plan to keep. We LOVE pictures and I know this is one litter that would be super to be able to watch grow.


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## SunGold (Feb 27, 2007)

goldens87 said:


> My name is Julie Guay and I am the owner of Brookshire Goldens. A few comments. First to the person who posted that a COI should never be over 12%. Where are you getting your data from? I am a little baffled that you would make such a blanket statement. COI is a tool just like the other tools we breeders have to help us in deciding the perfect breeding.
> Second I would like to state that my breedings are all carefully planned years in advanced. Yes my current litter is a half brother half sister breeding on the magnificent Hobo. To those that have never seen him he is everything a Golden should be. I have shared motel rooms with the dog and spent a lot of time with him.
> There are many reasons why I chose to do this breeding, the main one being the longevity behind Hobo. The pedigree is filled with 11-15 year olds. That is the main appeal to me. Then temperaments. There is not a Golden with a better temperament than Hobo.
> Lindsay and Chesney, the mom and dad have very few faults but many strengths. This is why I chose to do this breeding. To say a half brother half sister breeding should never be done is wrong. It should never be done by the inexperienced or those that don't know their pedigrees. After 21 years in Goldens I know my dogs and what is behind them.


Welcome to the forum Julie - glad you posted on this thread!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

goldens87 said:


> I joined this group about a year ago but have never posted.
> Everyone that breeds dogs has more to learn. You never stop learning.
> The bitch I keep from this litter is tightly bred and the plan is to outcross her to a dog with the qualities I am looking for. Then the offspring from that breeding will be bred back to a Hobo great grandson. Hobo is my favorite living male. he will be 12 this year and thinks he is a puppy. He is a silly wonderful boy. There is not much about him that I don't like.


This is exactly the kind of planning that a good breeder does-and one of the things that makes a difference between a good breeder and a BYB or a for profit breeders. It isn't about the male that is geographically closest to you-it is the ability to have a picture in your mind of what you want to achieve and having a blueprint or map to get you there. And while you are getting there, you are producing beautiful dogs, to the standard and healthy, some of whom will move forward in competition and others who will go on to become wonderful pets.


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## KimZay (Dec 7, 2009)

I am so happy to read some of the recent responses to this thread!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I would totally go for it. There is nothing wrong with that breeding. It's why we have purebred dogs with established type.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

This is the perfect illustration of breeding being SO Much more than putting two intact animals of the opposite sex together. You have no idea the _mess _you can get with a totally outcrosses litter i fyou don't intimately know and understand what the individuals in the pedigree are capable of producing. 
The old addage that "show dogs are so inbred they've ruined the breed" could not be further from the truth. The larger number of health and temperament issues are seen in the BYB and mill breedings where there is no consistency in either phenotye or genotype.

I think Julie's litter should be fanatastic on all counts.


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## buckeyegoldenmom (Oct 5, 2008)

goldens87 said:


> I joined this group about a year ago but have never posted.
> Everyone that breeds dogs has more to learn. You never stop learning.
> The bitch I keep from this litter is tightly bred and the plan is to outcross her to a dog with the qualities I am looking for. Then the offspring from that breeding will be bred back to a Hobo great grandson. Hobo is my favorite living male. he will be 12 this year and thinks he is a puppy. He is a silly wonderful boy. There is not much about him that I don't like.


Welcome to the forum Julie. Wow! It is so great to learn why breeders breed certain dogs together. My Murphy is also a Hobo grandson. Love reading about Hobo and seeing him on TV!


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## Susan6953 (Jun 9, 2008)

That sounds funny to say you shared a motel room with Hobo. It does sound like he is a great dog though.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Well I actually shared the room with Beth and where Beth goes Hobo goes


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> The old addage that "show dogs are so inbred they've ruined the breed" could not be further from the truth. The larger number of health and temperament issues are seen in the BYB and mill breedings where there is no consistency in either phenotype or genotype./QUOTE]
> 
> Agreed! Couldn't have said it better. I do think breeds with tiny genepools need to take advantage to COO (country of origin) dogs (ie, Salukis, Basenjis) but even those should be line bred to bring out faults and strengths.


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## 3459 (Dec 27, 2007)

My Chessie came from Brookshire's. Chessie is a Hobo pup and a littermate to Lindsay, the dam of Julie Guay's current litter that KimZay posted about. Chessie is a lovely, sweet, exuberant girl, a consummate snuggle bug, and a joyful and tolerant playmate to my super active, precocious three-year old grandson. I am indebted to the amazing breeders on this forum who patiently answered all my questions, and to Julie who gave in to my husband's pleadings and consented to send Chessie across the country to me. Without you all, I wouldn't be enjoying life with Chessie. The help offered on this forum from the dedicated breeders and golden retriever owners who are involved in competition and training, proving their dogs and preserving and bettering the breed, is an amazing gift to golden retriever pet owners like me. 

Julie, thanks so much for sharing the links to pictures of Lindsay's litter. I thoroughly enjoyed getting to see them. I hope you dive in here as your time permits and share your experiences with golden retrievers. Chessie sends golden hugs to you and Cher and Lindsay. :smooch:


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I missed this thread originally and am so excited to see Julie's explanation and willingness to discuss her decisions as a breeder.
Anyone who gets one of her dogs is very blessed.


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