# Thoughts on serious behavioral issues in 3 y/o golden



## mk9906 (Aug 16, 2007)

I"ll make this as short as possible. I posted on these forums when we first brought our golden retriever, Zach, home. I got so much great advice and learned so much from everyone here. 

Zach is a really sweet boy. He has never had any problems with aggression and gets along well with all other animals and kids. The problem is that at 3 years old (3 tomorrow to be exact) he's still acting like a 6 month old puppy. He is *wild*, doesn't obey at all, and still goes completely *berserk* when guests come over. 

We've been working with our vet and two different trainers over the last 2.5 years to help him calm down. He's been to obediences schools, twice. We have followed all of the "rules" at home with him. We fenced in our backyard so he could run off the leash, we play ball with him everyday, we take him on long walks. Nothing has helped. We now have a 1 year old daughter and are at a crossroads. Something has to give. It is nearly impossible to care for my daughter and wrangle Zach all day. Since our daughter started walking Zach is in the backyard or in his crate 99% of the day. I feel like we barely even see him. I know he's not happiest living like this, but we can't allow him to go tearing through the house knocking her over and jumping all over her either. Zach is creating a terrible amount of stress in our home and we just don't know what to do. 

Our vet is recommending medication. When he mentioned this we were 1000% against it. We said no, and we haven't discussed it since. I know nothing about it, and don't even remember the name of the medication because we had no intention of ever using it. But, now I'm beginning to wonder what we're going to do. The situation we're in now just cannot go on. I feel like we're down to two last resorts and I hate them both. Medication or a new home. I just can't imagine doing either, especially not him leaving our family. 

Anyone have any thoughts or advice? Anyone else gone through this?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Maybe a certified Behavioral Veterinarian?


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## mk9906 (Aug 16, 2007)

I just did a google search, there is a CBV about 30 miles north of us. I think I'll call them on Tuesday and ask a few questions. Thank you!!


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Hard to do on a forum...

What food is he on? How much exercise does he get in a day? What are the 'house rules' for him when he is inside (is he allowed to do whatever or do you expect him to be calm and quiet?)? Was he inside at all before your DD started to walk?

For food, if he's on anything with colouring, dye, artificial flavors.... switch to something better. Raw would be ideal, as you can give bones to keep him busy as his meal. If he's on kibble, give him bones as well, to keep him busy. Not around your kiddo of course, but in his crate or dog run.

He sounds like he needs to go for a good walk or run every day, something to keep him from doing so in the house. Get out the stroller, put his leash on and do laps around the block if nothing else. Or find some good natural areas he can go for walks in and get tired out. Swimming is good as is classes in agility or something that will make him work his body and mind. 

When you do bring him in, start when he is tired, and after bedtime when it's quiet. Put him on leash and teach him to be calm in the house. No insane dogs thank you, if he does start to act up go get the leash and redirect him to his bed, or do a bit of obedience with him to distract him. Sometimes it takes a few times of being a goof in the house for them to settle and go 'ok, I can be normal in the house' and then they're fine. Even just doing a 'down' for a minute, on leash, when he's getting wound up will get him to settle and learn that's what expected of him. It may mean you have to keep the leash attached to you for a while. Don't allow him to race around the house, or throw things for him or play any sort of high energy games with him.

When he's a lot better without baby around, bring him in when she is around, again on leash, so you can correct him if he's being hyper. It may take time and consistancy but he'll start to clue in.

As for knocking your DD over..... relax. It may happen, but she will live. My kiddos have been run over, hit with tails in the face, goosed and so on, and they for the most part get up and keep going. Sometimes they're a bit more upset, there's been a few scratches, but they've lived through much worse! And your dog may shock you - I thought for sure my border collie would be a nightmare when my son was born, he'd never been around kids or babies much and he was HYPER in the house. But the first time he came flying in the room and landed too close to baby.... he ran downstairs, hid for a long time and took a week before he was even willing to come into the bedroom again. After that he always looked first to make sure the coast was clear, very sweet on his part. Both kids as babies have played ball with the dogs (great amusement for the kids anyway), shared things off the highchair and spoon, had 'fights' over socks and teddy bears....

Lana


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## mk9906 (Aug 16, 2007)

Bender said:


> Hard to do on a forum...
> 
> What food is he on? How much exercise does he get in a day? What are the 'house rules' for him when he is inside (is he allowed to do whatever or do you expect him to be calm and quiet?)? Was he inside at all before your DD started to walk?


He's on Wellness Core dry dogfood. He is outside with our other dog for stretches of time and then runs or walks with my husband in the evenings. The house rules are no stealing food off counters, no rough housing with one another indoors, no running 1000 miles an hour and diving into the couch so hard that it scoots across the floor, etc. One dog (Pal) obeys all of those rules. Zach breaks them, over and over. Before DD walked he was indoors mostly, expect for backyard play or potty and walks. 




> Get out the stroller, put his leash on and do laps around the block if nothing else.


I would love to do this but it would be absolutely impossible. He's 65 lbs and very muscular and strong. Walking him takes both hands and all of the strength one person has. If DH and I both go on walks with him he jumps on the one who isn't walking him so we do it alone. 



> Put him on leash and teach him to be calm in the house. No insane dogs thank you, if he does start to act up go get the leash and redirect him to his bed, or do a bit of obedience with him to distract him. Sometimes it takes a few times of being a goof in the house for them to settle and go 'ok, I can be normal in the house' and then they're fine. Even just doing a 'down' for a minute, on leash, when he's getting wound up will get him to settle and learn that's what expected of him. It may mean you have to keep the leash attached to you for a while. Don't allow him to race around the house, or throw things for him or play any sort of high energy games with him.


We've done all of this. It has never helped. We tried it when he was about a year old, the keeping him on a leash, etc. And we tried it again when our DD was a newborn, again it didn't help. We never play with the dogs in the house. Indoors we will sit on the floor with them and pet them, hug them, and rub tummies but nothing more active. 



> When he's a lot better without baby around, bring him in when she is around, again on leash, so you can correct him if he's being hyper. It may take time and consistancy but he'll start to clue in.


I actually don't think DD is the cause of his behavior. He was just as bad before she was born and acts no different when she's in bed or out of the house.



> As for knocking your DD over..... relax. It may happen, but she will live. My kiddos have been run over, hit with tails in the face, goosed and so on, and they for the most part get up and keep going. Sometimes they're a bit more upset, there's been a few scratches, but they've lived through much worse! And your dog may shock you - I thought for sure my border collie would be a nightmare when my son was born, he'd never been around kids or babies much and he was HYPER in the house. But the first time he came flying in the room and landed too close to baby.... he ran downstairs, hid for a long time and took a week before he was even willing to come into the bedroom again. After that he always looked first to make sure the coast was clear, very sweet on his part. Both kids as babies have played ball with the dogs (great amusement for the kids anyway), shared things off the highchair and spoon, had 'fights' over socks and teddy bears....


We let our other dog Pal, have complete (but supervised) access to DD. Zach is just too rough though. She is only a year old and he will charge at her, full steam ahead, when she falls to the ground he's on top of her. We have stone flooring and hardwood, not the kind of surfaces that a one year old needs to be knocked back on. As importantly as her not being hurt, I'm also worried that he's going to instill a fear of dogs in her. We never ever raise our voice at Zach because we don't want to make DD afraid or have her associate chaos (from us) with dogs. But at a certain point, her safety and security have to come first. Pal has certainly bumped DD and knocked her down, he has accidentally scratched her, he kisses her tongue!, smacks her in the face with his tail, I have no issue with any of that and neither does DD, but what Zach is doing is a whole different ballgame.

We have tried everything to get him to be a little more gentle around her but the thing is he isn't any more rough with her than he is with anyone else. She's just a lot smaller than the rest of us. 

DH and I had a long talk about Zach tonight. This past week we were very nearly ready to start searching for a new home for him. We talked tonight and neither of us are willing to give him up. But we've just got to find a solution to this insanity.


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

Maybe you can find some fun agility classes to do with him to get out some extra steam?


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

There are a few 'red flags' in your post. I would highly recommend you get a consult with a veterinary behaviorist before placing your dog or starting medication.

I have a golden retriever with clinical level hyperactivity. It's hard. Training could only h elp so much. Medication was ----great---- for a while. He was like a normal dog and could do all the normal things dogs do and he could learn easily. Unfortunately for him, the success did not last, but he is a very unusual case and not very typical.

Clinical level hyperactivity is thought to be very rare but there ARE things that can be done. Training in combination with appropriate medication has literally been a life saver for us.

We love our behavior vet very much. Please feel free to PM me if you need some moral support!


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## mk9906 (Aug 16, 2007)

RedDogs- *THANK YOU!* You have no idea what a comfort it is to know that we're not alone. I have felt really guilty lately, thinking we've just failed Zach in some way. I am calling the behavioral vet Tuesday morning and making an appointment. I just need them to meet him and give us their professional opinion of what is going on. I didn't even know there was such a label as "clinical hyperactivity". All I knew is that I have never come across a dog like Zach in my life. I grew up with goldens, we had 5 over the course of 20 years and not even the most rambunctious of those could hold a candle to Zach. 

For the first time in months I have some hope that we may be able to get this under control. And I'll probably take you up on the PM offer  

Thanks again!


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

You do not mention it, so I will not assume it and will ask--is Zach neutered?
Also, did you purchase Zach from a breeder? If so, have you contacted his breeder?
The reason I ask is that to a person, reputable breeders will want to know about situations where something is not working out, and will want the first opportunity to rehome the dog.

Good luck to you--whatever happens, I know all will turn out for the best, for your family and Zach. A vet that is a certified behaviorist will be able to look at the family and pet dynamics and give you insight as to what is going on.

Our first golden was a "wild child" and we had several of our friends joke that he was getting a Ph.D in obedience--we had so many certificates from various obedience schools and training programs in South Florida. For us, it was a combination of his big, bold personality and our limited experience as dog owners--but in the end, he shined, as I got him certified as a Therapy Dog, and a Canine Good Citizen, and also put two AKC beginning obedience titles on him--Rally Novice, and Companion Dog--and I had a couple of people wonder how I would do with Companion Dog, since I would have to do parts of it off leash. I also had fun showing him in Veterans in the breed ring. Don't give up. I'm hoping you will find a way.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Maybe there's a nice, responsible high school kid in your area who plays varsity soccer or runs xcountry/track who wouldnt mind taking Zach for a serious, huge run every morning- a nice 5 miles? Maybe there's a dog person around who would be willing to take Zach through agility classes to see if that tires out his brain/ body in a good way? 

How about using some tethers to keep Zach around you and the other dogs without running over DD? 

It takes the fun out of it when you feel you just can't reach a hyperspaz dog. Add a baby on top of that? Stress and more stress.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Have you tried using a no-pull harness, head collar, or prong to walk him with? For you, I think a head collar could be really helpful--just make sure you spend time training having it on before using it.

Also, as hard as this sounds, you may need to consider contacting your breeder and see about re-homing Zach. The situation if it does not improve is not ideal for either of you, and you both may be happier if he found a home that didn't have small children and gave him the exercise he needs.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

What I do with a stroller, is I take the dog's leash(s) and make them just long enough that they can walk beside the stroller on the left side. Not long enough that they can go ahead, or wander too far. Use prong if needed. If they get to pulling too much, I simply make a sharp turn to the left, into them and cut them off, do a full circle and keep going. Doesn't take them long to learn stroller manners and behave that way. 

I hope the vet can help with things, and I'd also suggest calling the breeder to give a heads up. They can't help if they don't know there's a problem!

Lana


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

if you rehome please go through a golden retriever rescue. They will work with Zach and hopefully he will go to a home with no children and someone with lots of energy. most rescues match the people to the golden's needs/personality. make sure they do this before you go with them.
I am sorry for you and Zach that you are having these problems.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

While you're waiting to speak with the behaviorist, please go buy a good quality prong collar. Take him out a few times on your own, without stroller and baby, to practice correcting him properly with it. If you can take him on long walks without losing your shoulders and hands, he may very well become better behaved. I had to get one for my very high prey drive rescue boy. With a bad neck, I can't risk being pulled to chase bunnies, etc., so during bunny season (now), I use the prong and it's very effective. In any event, good luck with turning this boy around. Whatever you decide will be the right decision for your family.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I would not use a prong, esp. before visiting with a veterinary behaviorist. Most of them will not be recommending that type of tool and esp. with dogs who are abnormal this could make it worse. Wait and see (and share!) what the vet says during your consult!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

mk9906 said:


> We now have a 1 year old daughter and are at a crossroads. Something has to give. It is nearly impossible to care for my daughter and wrangle Zach all day. *Since our daughter started walking Zach is in the backyard or in his crate 99% of the day. I feel like we barely even see him. I know he's not happiest living like this*, but we can't allow him to go tearing through the house knocking her over and jumping all over her either. Zach is creating a terrible amount of stress in our home and we just don't know what to do.


An active Golden Retriever, even one with a "normal" activity level (assuming that Zach's is higher than normal...) cannot be expected to live like this and be calm, quiet, and laid back. Hid does not have serious behavioral problems, he is seriously lacking in exercise (physical AND mental) and socialization.
My suggestion at this juncture would be that you are not in a good position with a new baby to properly care for a large, active dog.You cannot provide him with the time necessary for him to be properly exercized and socialized. For Zach's sake, I would re-home him.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Here is something that was suggested to me to use when I need to calm my boy down. I don't really use it, but it's something I tucked in the back of my mind for future reference:

Dog is on leash. Step on the leash and pull up until you have as little leash as possible between your foot and the dog. Put lots of pressure on the leash. Dog will figure out that the most comfortable position at this time is a down. Hold the leash tight until the dog settles into the down and isn't going crazy. Repeat every time the dog needs to settle down some.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Lots of good suggestions in this thread - I'll add one more suggestion. Invest in a dog backpack and start walking him with it empty, then gradually fill the backpack so he's carrying even weight in both saddlebags. I like to use empty water bottles to start, then with water, then with rocks. It can turn a 20 min walk into a much more tiring experience since the dog feels like he's "working", plus the weight of the backpack will tire out the dog quicker. 

I'd try to do more mental exercise with him. Ranger went through a high energy phase so I started taking him on runs with me. Pretty soon, a 5 mile run wasn't tiring him out - it was getting him more revved up for the rest of the day. Dogs can become conditioned quicker than humans and if you start running 5 miles a day with him, it's going to be bumped up to 6 miles, then 10 miles, and so on. I stopped running with Ranger (he also wasn't great to run with) and started walking him for 2 hours a day. His energy dropped and he was the calm dog I knew. On his few "crazy" days, I loaded up his backpack with water bottles and we walked until he was calm and listening (not trying to lead the way). 

Get a kong wobbler and feed him breakfast and dinner in it (put him outside for this since some dogs go nuts). He'll have to work to get the kibble out AND hunt for it in the grass. Buy him a few raw marrow bones, freeze them, and then give him one to keep him entertained in the evenings. 

Practice your obedience sessions over and over and over again. Try to do 6 ten minute sessions in a day and work on stays - nothing tires out a dog more than having to stay still when not wanting to. Down stay and a sit stay with the leash on so you can correct when he breaks and you stay right in front of him. Eventually build up to 2 minutes of you in front, then start doing the stays when you're 6 ft away (at the end of the leash). 

Spend 20 min a day teaching silly tricks. Spin, roll over, play dead, bow, sit pretty, crawl, etc. Use a clicker and get him used to clicker training for tricks. Anything to stimulate his mind and make him think.

If you're truly desperate and nothing is working, look into a dog walker as well. There's dog walkers up here that will go on hikes with clients' dogs and they're gone for 4-5 hours a day. My own dog walker takes the dogs to off leash parks where some run off leash and the rest stay on a leash and learn how to walk politely in a pack. They go to the river some days and spend a few hours swimming and romping around and come back exhausted. I pay $20 a walk and Ranger is gone for 4-5 hours at a time and comes back exhausted and happy. Please look into something like that instead of keeping your guy crated all day. It seems like a short term "solution" but it's only going to cause more trouble and havoc down the road. I'd also suggest a dog walker over doggie day care.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> An active Golden Retriever, even one with a "normal" activity level (assuming that Zach's is higher than normal...) cannot be expected to live like this and be calm, quiet, and laid back. Hid does not have serious behavioral problems, he is seriously lacking in exercise (physical AND mental) and socialization.
> My suggestion at this juncture would be that you are not in a good position with a new baby to properly care for a large, active dog.You cannot provide him with the time necessary for him to be properly exercized and socialized. For Zach's sake, I would re-home him.


I would tend to agree with this..........


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## SophieP (May 7, 2010)

Ditto to the tee to what Ranger said - great suggestions!

We do almost all of these (minus the dog walker since we have 3 girls and it's good exercise and bonding for them to walk the dog too)...Abby gets 3-4 walks/day (3 short, and one long) and we feed her 2 of her 3 meals in the Kong Wobbler and she gets a frozen marrow bone (small one since she is still small) once/week with some other chewing toys in between sicne she's still teething.

We have a VERY busy household - both my husnand and I work full-time and we have 3 busy girls: 10 year old and 5 year old twins but we created a chart indicating who does what with Abby and it has really helped. Everybody chips in for the feeding, 10 minute play sessions, walks, short daily traning exercises/commands, etc. Abby is a GREAT puppy and turning into a wonderful dog. She is only in her crate during the day (and I get home early to let her out) or when we go out.

Oh yeah, I forgot what also helps use up her energy ++ - she has a best friend GR across the street who we walk with and go to the park with every night...would that be an option for you (ie: walk with your duaghter in the stroller - with backpack on your dog as Ranger suggested) and have them play free in the park for 30 minutes or so? Also letting them burn off their "zoomies" really helps (and is so cute!) too.

Good luck & take care!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

It sounds to me like you have a very active Golden; one that may have more hyperactivity in his temperament than is ideal. If you are committed to keeping him, a visit with a veterinary behaviorist (make sure it's a certified vet behaviorist, which is a vet who has done two extra years of study just on the topic of behavior vs. a standard vet who likes to dispense behavior advise -- there's a HUGE difference between the two). They might be able to find meds that help.

BUT -- for the long term, it's going to take lots of training commitment on your part where you not only spend time training for the new behaviors you'd like him to exhibit (for example, staying on his dog bed in the family room when you're all in there together), but also some creative (and often inconvenient) management techniques so that he can't practice doing the things you don't like. (For example, finding a way to install an anchor point strong enough to hold him in the baseboard in the room where you want to spend time together, so that while he's learning to do the down stay on his bed, you can tether him so that in case he makes a mistake, he can't get up, rush over and knock over the baby.)

I would also get him back into training. It's not something you do twice - especially with a busy dog. I tell my clients that they'll have the best results if they are actively involved in working their dogs as a priority project for at least the first three years of his life.

Be patient. These behaviors aren't going to change overnight, or in a few days or even a few weeks. Think months and years of little baby steps of progress toward the finished picture of the dog you want. That's where the management is so important -- so you have ways to survive the wait. And spending 99% of his time outside or in a crate isn't what I mean by management. It's absolutely ok to do that for some of the time, but it's putting training toward your goals on hold when you do it.

The vet behaviorist (or even a certified applied animal behaviorist - again, please look for that exact credential title, not just someone "certified" by the school they went to) should be able to give you another very honest picture of what to expect in terms of training and timeline. If you're not able to commit to it - that's okay -- but please work with Golden Rescue to find him a new home.

Best of luck to you. Keep us posted!


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> An active Golden Retriever, even one with a "normal" activity level (assuming that Zach's is higher than normal...) cannot be expected to live like this and be calm, quiet, and laid back. Hid does not have serious behavioral problems, he is seriously lacking in exercise (physical AND mental) and socialization.
> My suggestion at this juncture would be that you are not in a good position with a new baby to properly care for a large, active dog.You cannot provide him with the time necessary for him to be properly exercized and socialized. For Zach's sake, I would re-home him.


I agree with Pointgold - what you have described is a normal Golden who is seriously lacking in both physical and mental exercise and socialization. I think a good trainer or behaviorist will tell you the same. 

To be honest, there is no way you can spend the time you are going to need with Zach. I've raised children and puppies and it takes a tremendous amount of time and energy- its too much for anyone, yet alone a new mom. You will need a lot of help. I think you know this - now. 

While your intentions are good and your heart is there - it is unrealistic to think you can meet his needs, too. You may try to give it a go for a week or two, but something will suffer - and ultimately it will be Zach. I would re-home him. These early years with your child are very important - and stress in a family manifests in other ways later on. The same could be said for Zach's young life. 

I wouldn't let this continue as it is. . . I am sorry, but I really would focus on finding Zach a good home.


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## mk9906 (Aug 16, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> An active Golden Retriever, even one with a "normal" activity level (assuming that Zach's is higher than normal...) cannot be expected to live like this and be calm, quiet, and laid back. Hid does not have serious behavioral problems, he is seriously lacking in exercise (physical AND mental) and socialization.


First of all, I totally agree that a dog cannot be expected to live this way. Which is why we are committed to change it. 

Secondly, I *totally* disagree that he does _not_ have behavioral issues and the problem is us. My daughter has been walking for 2 months. Zach has behaved this way for 3 years. Including the 2 years before we had children. In those two years Zach was in obedience classes, regularly going to dog parks to socialize, constantly in our home with us, taken on walks and runs, we devoted 100% of our time and energy to help him behave like a "normal" dog. 

I was raised with golden retrievers, from age 5 to age 17. I have never in my life seen a dog like Zach. His behavior is not _normal_, even for a high energy dog. 

I appreciate everyone's advice. I truly do. We have made an appointment with a CBV. Just before doing so, I emailed our trainer to discuss this. She agreed that Zach's behavior is not typical and strongly suggested that we go ahead and make an appointment with a behavioral vet. She also asked us not to use a prong collar, so we won't. 

Thanks again.


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