# Grooming the tail



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Any way you can attach a photo? Or put it on your facebook page  It might help to see what you did. Did you brush out the hair and neaten up the curve of feathers underneath? (you know, if you hold the tail out straight behind the dog, you can trim the "dead ends" off in a slight curve to meet up with the End you made into a makeup brush  It will make it look much neater and less obvious.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I just combed it out, was told to twist it then cut it off. But no, I didn't shake it out and trim anything. Sipsy has so darn much hair and a dark spot at the end so it's like a furry smiley face! 
I'll go back and trim the edges a little, nothing I can do about the dark spot  Thanks!


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

That happened to me the one time I tried twisting, so I don't twist anymore. I grab the tail, figure out where I want it to be when I'm done (usually that's the hock, but current dog is longer bodied so he looks more balanced if it's a bit longer than that) then i move my hand down an extra 1-1.5," holding all of the hair together. I take my straight shears and cut it straight across at that point. Then, as nolefan suggests, I comb and hold the tail straight out behind the dog and, with my thinning shears, trim to the final shape/length. I'm not the greatest with scissors, but that makes it fairly idiot proof for me.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

LOL idiot proof is exactly what I need! The older golden came out pretty good. I did as nolefan suggested and she looks so much neater. 
I think the problem with Sipsy is the amount of "bush" she has back there but next time I will leave out the twisting and clean up the tail. 
Dragging on the ground is not an option so it looks the way it looks 

Not the best picture but it looks like an alien life form staring at me!


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

That’s exactly what happens when I twist, but I do not get that, at all, when I don’t twist. I must be doing something wrong, but I have no idea what it is.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Do you have a better picture of the tail? 

Stand her and hold the tail out for the pic.

Not sure I understand the issue?


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Twisting has always worked for me, but I do clean up the edges after I cut off the end. This probably isn't the right way, but I always put Rocket in a stack and then hold his tail out level with his back with one hand and trim any stray hairs with the other hand. I try to level it out, so that it looks like a fan after I cut off the end if that makes sense. He has a very thick, luxurious tail, so if I mess up, it's easy to hide. He is in dire need of a tail trim right now, so I can post some before and after pictures if you want. I will probably give him a bath today or tomorrow.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

When I do trim tails, I twist them. My girl has the same kind of tail....I just don’t cut it quite as short. I really butchered it last year before the CCA (in my opinion)


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Never seen anybody twist it before. We use a straight shear and cut the end so it is even leg joint, then take blending shears to trim the rest.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

cubbysan said:


> Never seen anybody twist it before. We use a straight shear and cut the end so it is even leg joint, then take blending shears to trim the rest.[/
> 
> This is how I do it, sometimes after I use the straight shears on the end, if it looks too harsh I will use the thinning shears to blend it a little softer. And then trim with the thinning shears the rest of the tail.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Her tail seems to be the last place she still has puppy fuzz vs the long flowing locks. I will definitely do this different on the next pass. 
I've done a little picture research and it's not as bad as I first thought. The blunt look when you view from behind is pretty much the norm. Because she has so much hair and fluff it's just more noticable. After all the older girl (less coat) looks fine. But I did go back and use the thinning shears to get rid of the stragglers. I think it's the reddish spot in the middle that took me by surprise! 

Thanks for all the advice. I feel more prepared for the next time.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

puddles everywhere said:


> Her tail seems to be the last place she still has puppy fuzz vs the long flowing locks. I will definitely do this different on the next pass.
> I've done a little picture research and it's not as bad as I first thought. The blunt look when you view from behind is pretty much the norm. Because she has so much hair and fluff it's just more noticable. After all the older girl (less coat) looks fine. But I did go back and use the thinning shears to get rid of the stragglers. I think it's the reddish spot in the middle that took me by surprise!
> 
> Thanks for all the advice. I feel more prepared for the next time.


My daughter and I always fight on who is going to do the tail - both of us are intimidated by it. :smile2:


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

cubbysan said:


> My daughter and I always fight on who is going to do the tail - both of us are intimidated by it. :smile2:


I always think the tail is the easiest part - so long as there's no twisting. The ears are the intimidating part.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I always twist and cut with straight edge shears. Shake it out and trim up the rough edges using the same shears. Just kinda smoothing out the outline.

This creates a "rounded" end without too much need for shaping. We generally don't want a pointy end like a setter cut. And you don't really want a blunt cut either.

If you hold the tail up, you should see a general flag shape but with a rounded end.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

Yeah. I can’t get that when I twist. I do it the same way as cubbysan, and it looks like your pics when I am done. If I twist, it looks like puddles’ pics, which means I am doing something very wrong when I try the twist method. I don't know what, though.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

The ears are still a work in progress  I keep thinning but it never seems to be enough. But it grows so quickly, we just go at it again on the next pass.
The tail doesn't completely flow yet, it's more like a pom pom or a frizzed perm ... the Don King look? on the bottom half. I think it was the red spot in the middle that was the shocker. Wonder who she got this from? It's like one of those candies with the carmel centers.

And thanks for the pictures.. so beautiful!!!


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## Summertime15 (May 15, 2015)

Can someone describe the twisting method in a little more detail? Do you twist the whole tail, or just the bottom few inches somehow? And are the scissors in one hand while you keep the tail twisted (how tightly?) with the other hand? Also, when cutting, do you hold the tail straight down or straight out, and do you make the cut parallel to the floor etc? I must be doing something wrong, my dogs always end up with too much of a pointed end after tail grooming!


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Summertime15 said:


> Can someone describe the twisting method in a little more detail? Do you twist the whole tail, or just the bottom few inches somehow? And are the scissors in one hand while you keep the tail twisted (how tightly?) with the other hand? Also, when cutting, do you hold the tail straight down or straight out, and do you make the cut parallel to the floor etc? I must be doing something wrong, my dogs always end up with too much of a pointed end after tail grooming!


When I do the twisting, it's just the last 2-3 inches. It's similar to twisting a ponytail before cutting it off into a bob (like when people donate their hair). If the tail is really long, it may take more than one twist and trim to get it to the right length, and then clean it up. Basically, you just twist the last few inches near the end of the tail bones and then cut off the last 1/2-inch to inch in one fell swoop with straight shears (repeat if you need to cut off a lot). Hold the tail out in a straight line with the dog's back and made the cut perpendicular to the hair. You hold the twisted part in a circle between your thumb and pointer finger pretty tightly and cut it off right next to your fingers. If you hold it too loose, then it will be uneven after you let go. Some of the twisted part will be below the cut, DO NOT cut off all of the twisted part. Just the last little bit. 

I will try to post some pictures on this thread in the near future when I groom my dog. He's not a show dog, but I still like for him to look nice, so I do a "sort of" show groom on him. The whole process takes about three hours, so I've been procrastinating for a few weeks... 

The reason I do the twisting thing is because a breeder I met at a show once told me that's how she did it, and she demonstrated how to twist the tail for me. I tried it, and it was super easy. 

Personally, I think ears and feet are much harder than the tail. 

Here is a link to the GRCA's grooming tutorial: https://www.grca.org/about-the-breed/articles/grooming-your-golden-joanne-lastoka/


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

So does anyone think the entire tail will darken or will she always have the red eye at the end of her tail??
I love her coat, there is soooo much of it! I can make all sorts of mistakes and it goes unnoticed  
Thanks for all the pictures, helps me to know what the finished product should be. The tail was easy on the other dog, same process just has a mature coat & less of it.

Does anyone use a stripping tool? It seems there are several to pick from and not sure which one I need. Basically the neck/behind the ear area and the legs are actually getting a little bushy on the sides. I've seen them used on the videos but they don't say which one to use.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

ArkansasGold said:


> When I do the twisting, it's just the last 2-3 inches. It's similar to twisting a ponytail before cutting it off into a bob (like when people donate their hair). If the tail is really long, it may take more than one twist and trim to get it to the right length, and then clean it up. Basically, you just twist the last few inches near the end of the tail bones and then cut off the last 1/2-inch to inch in one fell swoop with straight shears (repeat if you need to cut off a lot). Hold the tail out in a straight line with the dog's back and made the cut perpendicular to the hair. You hold the twisted part in a circle between your thumb and pointer finger pretty tightly and cut it off right next to your fingers. If you hold it too loose, then it will be uneven after you let go. Some of the twisted part will be below the cut, DO NOT cut off all of the twisted part. Just the last little bit.
> 
> I will try to post some pictures on this thread in the near future when I groom my dog. He's not a show dog, but I still like for him to look nice, so I do a "sort of" show groom on him. The whole process takes about three hours, so I've been procrastinating for a few weeks...
> 
> ...


Maybe I cut too much when I twisted. Also, three hours? I don't think it took me three hours to strip and trim my Giant Schnauzer for the breed ring. Maybe my Golden grooming job is shoddier than I think because the tail takes less than 5 min, the feet take maybe 20, and the ears - which, admittedly, I am terrible at - take about 30. Are you including bathing/drying in that 3 hours? Mine isn’t a show dog, either, but I can’t tolerate fuzzy feet/ears and too long tails.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

It takes me about 3 hours but most of this is drying time. Tail was just a few minutes for either of the girls, I now know how to do the additional touches... thank you. Feet about 15 minutes. My girl has so much hair it's more about shaping with thinning shears and edging the foot and pad clean up. She has really great feet despite my shortcomings.
Ears on the other hand I go until I give up  One day they will look like the pictures. Not sure about the neck area yet, still learning. 
Honestly I spend more time on raking the coat, brushing teeth, trimming nails & cleaning out ears than actual grooming. 
My girl is no show dog either but fuzzy feet and tail dragging on the ground makes me a little crazy too. She is a long way from a professional trim but like her to be clean and neat. I've never had one with so much hair and everything I thought I knew just didn't apply with Sipsy.
My other girl takes only about 90 min. Had I know Sipsy was in my future I would have bought a better hair dryer!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Length of time grooming can actually be about 2-3 hours if the dog is totally ungroomed or has gone a while since the last grooming. Does not include bathing. This is more a show groom, you are talking about a groomer bent over, sweating, and nipping every little hair that's sticking out beyond the desired shape of the paws, hocks, tails, and ears. 

Most people who are showing 2-3 times a month are grooming the dogs frequently enough that they do not need to spend that much time grooming the dog. Personally speaking, I'm at a show this weekend and getting ready for the show meant me doing a very quick grooming earlier this week. Spent about 45 minutes clipping the bottoms of Bertie's feet and getting most of the "shape" I want with the feet. And then spent another half hour this morning touching up on the feet after blowing them out + adding a teeny tiny little bit of mousse to keep them poofy. Usually after I add the mousse and use the slicker to brush up on the fur, I can see the strays that need to be trimmed back with my blenders. 

Ears are completely easy with a dog who has been kept groomed. <= When the ears are shaggy, it's a lot more time intensive and a bigger pain. When they are kept groomed, you are mainly just doing 1 cut along the edge of the ear and stripping around the ear (very quick work). 

Feet are the most time intensive - because if you cut them wrong, it can make nice feet look bad. If the dog is completely ungroomed - that's typically where all the time is spent. And as I said - that could be 2-3 hours if completely ungroomed dog. 

Might add - my Jacks (not show dog), gets about 20-30 minutes on the table getting his feet trimmed + neck stripped and maybe making his tail less border collie length if I remember to trim it.

Normally would have fully bathed my dog prior to showing him, but I thankfully overheard from other people that humidity was causing problems. People were finding they couldn't get their dogs dry. Bathing + drying in ideal conditions takes about 45 minutes. Today there were people flipping out because they had the dryers (k9III dryers) working for about that long and they could still feel damp in the coat.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

Megora said:


> stripping around the ear (very quick work).


Can you describe that? Assume it is not the same as stripping a schnauzer or terrier. Though, I'd be happy if it is.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

usually lurking said:


> Can you describe that? Assume it is not the same as stripping a schnauzer or terrier. Though, I'd be happy if it is.


I started to explain, but little doodle probably helps show what I'm talking about.

Most goldens grow a lot shag on and under their ears. This is both the really light/soft fluff + just thick fur going down into their ruff. 

We kinda clean that up with a combination of mars strippers, thinning shears, and a fine stripping knife (only on the flats of the ears to smooth them out so you don't have flyaways sticking out). 

So doodle - you start with something like on the top and try to get something like on the bottom. Maybe not that exaggerated (drew with a pen and had to kinda just go with it LOL), but mainly thinning out the really "bunchy" areas.

On the neck and going down into the ruff - you try not to remove top coat.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Oh yes Megora... please explain this and what tools you use! I bathe Sips every week to 10 days and try to trim up the feet each time. I love the dremel tool, gives such a nice smooth nail. But must admit I only do the ears about once a month. I know more hair needs to come off, it's a work in progress. But trying to thin out the "bulk" behind the ear and the neck just isn't working with the thinning shears. I could stand there all day and never get enough off.
When this dryer dies I will be replacing with something with a little more power. It worked fine for the dogs I had at the time but poor thing is overwhelmed with Sipsy's coat. The chihuahua likes it 
This is a head shot showing the ears but not the neck. The full view shows the horse collar effect.. makes her neck look so short!


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

Are you actually stripping the ear with the stripping knife?


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

You know what? Goldens keep growing hair to the point one can barely keep up. If you make mistakes they are gone within a few months. 

Not one person I ever met complained about mine being a bit lopsided. They might look a bit funny to a judge if they ever saw one but normal folks say wow, nice coat.

My god you brush that? must be a lot of work.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

usually lurking said:


> Are you actually stripping the ear with the stripping knife?


If dog is really shaggy -

1. I use a mars stripper on and under the ear. This quickly removes bulk. 

2. Thinning shears come next - you made 1-3 cuts on the ear, brush and take a look. 1-3 cuts under the ear and in front of the ear hole. Brush that out and take a look. 1-3 cuts behind the ear, brush out and take a look. 

Stopping after 3 cuts to reaccess means you are not over doing it. You want the ears to look natural. But most of us want all that shag cleaned up.

And it's OK to do a little and walk away for the day. Revisit the next day. 

3. Use straight edge shears to cut the edge of the ear (not the front edge or the tip). Long shears mean fewer cuts. Ideally, just do 1 cut. 

4. Fine stripping knife is a finishing tool. This goes over the flats of the ears to smooth everything out. 

A med or coarse stripping knife can be used elsewhere, but there's a fine line there where you are smoothing things out and sculpting.... 

If dog is kept groomed -

1. Mars stripper quick once over on, under, etc.
2. straight shears 1 cut on rear edge of ear (NOT THE FRONT EVER)
3. Fine stripping knife as a finisher on the flat of the ears.


@puddles everywhere - I think less is more if the ears (ear flaps) on your girlie is what she was born with, no grooming before hand. I would use thinning shears around the tip of the ear where she has some length beyond the ear leather. On the rear edge of her ears where you can make a straight cut, you can use the straight edge shears there. And that's it on ear flaps themselves. 

It looks like she has more shag under the ears. You can just pick the ears up in your left hand and use a mars stripper to really remove a lot of the bulk there. I remove it anyway with Jacks, because he gets yeasty ears every once in a while - and that yeast infection does (can) go down the neck where the fur is very thick. <= You are not stripping the necks out to make the dog look like a setter or cocker. But you are removing some of the bulk.

Was going to add - your girl looks like she has a lot of coat. Like a LOT of it.  That might be the reason why you are drying so long.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Thanks for the help Megora. Yes she does.. even lost points at CCA event for "excessive" coat  I LOVED the mousse suggestion! I put a dab on her feet today and no more stray hairs. The good news about all the hair is it makes it really easy to do her feet. And mistakes disappear quickly.

After 15 minutes of raking out a ton of hair... just on the bottom of the tail  I used a little mousse and thinning shears on the top of the tail, no twisting but looks much better. I know the flowing hair is working it's way down the tail and will make a big difference when the pom poms are gone. I've decided the red eye in the center is her tail color trying to get out!

Shopping for strippers and guess I need to buy all 3. Sips has an excessive amount of hair on the sides, almost front of her legs and know this contributes to her looking like her legs are stubby. Do instructions come with those things so I will know which ones to use where?

I like your drawings and we of course are the "before" version. 

My little orange 4.0 metro was plenty for my last golden & my current old girl. But it's no match for Sipsy. It takes about 20 minutes just to get her legs & feet dry... the short stuff! 

Thanks for all the advice, I'm determined to do my beautiful girl justice but know it's all about having the right tools. Skill level will get better with practice, I hope.

Oops... ear flaps, what you see is after a great deal of time with thinning shears. I could cut forever but know more needs to come off. Sadly the more I take off the fuller the back of her neck and shoulders look so I just try and maintain what you see until I figured out the rest.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Just clarifying - 

The mousse goes on the feet before showing - and gets washed off. Leaving anything like that on the feet might encourage foot licking/chewing. 

Trimming fur anywhere or everywhere - I think less removing of fur is better. I would use a stripper behind and under ears and going down the neck to the shoulders... and also on the bib (front of neck). I would not use strippers anywhere else (sides/back/etc).

Mars Original Coat King - 20 blade is about all you need re strippers. 

Sometimes it helps having somebody (involved with the breed and knows how to groom golden retrievers for show) groom your dog and explain and show you how. <= I'm going through that with the rough collie who needs grooming, but it's different than goldens. I'm pushing my sister to either touch base with the breeder to groom him the right way with us watching and/or keeping my eyes open for a grooming seminar for the breed.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

usually lurking said:


> Maybe I cut too much when I twisted. Also, three hours? I don't think it took me three hours to strip and trim my Giant Schnauzer for the breed ring. Maybe my Golden grooming job is shoddier than I think because the tail takes less than 5 min, the feet take maybe 20, and the ears - which, admittedly, I am terrible at - take about 30. Are you including bathing/drying in that 3 hours? Mine isn’t a show dog, either, but I can’t tolerate fuzzy feet/ears and too long tails.


Three hours includes bathing and drying. My thinning shears are also not the best quality in the world, so things take longer sometimes. As @Megora said, the three hours is for when he is totally ungroomed. It has been probably 5 or 6 weeks since I trimmed his feet, and that hair grows unbelievably fast. I usually spend 1+ hours bathing and drying, then another 1+ on the feet, and the remaining part of the 3 hours on the ears, hocks, tail, and tidying up other places. It takes longer if I trim up his other feathering to make it look at least kinda neat and not out of control. I was going to at least bathe and dry him last night, but it was 96-degrees outside at 6:00, so I decided not to. lol

Also, I don't have a grooming table (next on my list of equipment), so some of that time is spent chasing him around the patio and just trying to get him to stay still... My previous dog was a Pembroke Welsh Corgi, and other than the ridiculous amount of shedding, she didn't really need to be groomed. Her feet didn't grow fuzzy slippers and dirt seemed to just fall off of her for the most part. Rocket is my first Golden and he has a TON of coat, so some of the 3 hours is due to my learning curve. I generally know how to do most things, but the execution takes time. It's an "easier said than done" scenario for me. I hope I get faster with more experience and better tools.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I need a better dryer


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

ArkansasGold said:


> Three hours includes bathing and drying. My thinning shears are also not the best quality in the world, so things take longer sometimes. As @Megora said, the three hours is for when he is totally ungroomed. It has been probably 5 or 6 weeks since I trimmed his feet, and that hair grows unbelievably fast. I usually spend 1+ hours bathing and drying, then another 1+ on the feet, and the remaining part of the 3 hours on the ears, hocks, tail, and tidying up other places. It takes longer if I trim up his other feathering to make it look at least kinda neat and not out of control. I was going to at least bathe and dry him last night, but it was 96-degrees outside at 6:00, so I decided not to. lol
> 
> Also, I don't have a grooming table (next on my list of equipment), so some of that time is spent chasing him around the patio and just trying to get him to stay still... My previous dog was a Pembroke Welsh Corgi, and other than the ridiculous amount of shedding, she didn't really need to be groomed. Her feet didn't grow fuzzy slippers and dirt seemed to just fall off of her for the most part. Rocket is my first Golden and he has a TON of coat, so some of the 3 hours is due to my learning curve. I generally know how to do most things, but the execution takes time. It's an "easier said than done" scenario for me. I hope I get faster with more experience and better tools.



Thanks for clarifying. I trim feet about every 3 weeks, just because it keeps my floors cleaner. My dog does not have a ton of coat, either, so I'm sure that does make a difference. His coat is very moderate. If I was going to be totally obsessive about every hair - as if he was going in the ring - it probably would take three hours or more. While I do not have a table, either, I don't have to chase him around. If I did, or if I was showing, I'd probably get a table. Frankly, I just don't want to have to look at it sitting around.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Ok y'all, as promised, here are some tail twisting pictures! Before (but after bathing and drying):


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I had to twist and trim three times to get to the "correct" length (approximately 1" below the top of the hock), but here is what the first one looked like:


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I also used the thinning shears to trim off another inch or two toward the base of the tail to create this nice, even slope. It's not perfect, but it looks MUCH better than before. I also thinned out the feathering on the back of his thighs and trimmed his hocks in the final product.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

You guys have been so much help! I didn't twist this time but it took 3 tries to cut through it all  But I really did need the extra pass with the thinning shears... and more raking! The side pic really is of the tail.. it's in there somewhere, I promise.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

If memory serves me right exaggerate grooming is going to be frowned upon. I remember reading some where judges are looking for more natural grooming. I'll have to see if I can dig it up. 

"The American Kennel Club show standards for grooming the golden retriever call for a natural, untrimmed coat. The coat should lie in a natural line, with the head, front legs and paws trimmed slightly shorter than the body hair. The feathering of the legs, neck, back and underside of the tail are desirable traits of the golden retriever."


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Nate83 said:


> If memory serves me right exaggerate grooming is going to be frowned upon. I remember reading some where judges are looking for more natural grooming. I'll have to see if I can dig it up.
> 
> "The American Kennel Club show standards for grooming the golden retriever call for a natural, untrimmed coat. The coat should lie in a natural line, with the head, front legs and paws trimmed slightly shorter than the body hair. The feathering of the legs, neck, back and underside of the tail are desirable traits of the golden retriever."


Trimming the tail is general grooming, certainly not exaggerated grooming. Exaggerated grooming refers to extreme sculpting and use of lots of products (think poodle).


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Nate83 said:


> If memory serves me right exaggerate grooming is going to be frowned upon. I remember reading some where judges are looking for more natural grooming. I'll have to see if I can dig it up.
> 
> "The American Kennel Club show standards for grooming the golden retriever call for a natural, untrimmed coat. The coat should lie in a natural line, with the head, front legs and paws trimmed slightly shorter than the body hair. The feathering of the legs, neck, back and underside of the tail are desirable traits of the golden retriever."


The breed standard specifies that the feet may be trimmed and "stray hairs may be neatened". 

It is implied that the "stray hairs" refers to the ears and around the head and light trimming only. 

Technically speaking - when we take a couple inches off the tails (trimming it back to the correct length measured to the hock + length beyond the tail bone tip), half an inch off the front legs (trimming to the back of the big pad), excess length off the hocks (both trimming the length and then shaping so it is straight up and down), remove a lot of undercoat around the neck in front.... all of that is stuff that is done as a matter of course when doing a show groom on a golden retriever.... <= Purists out there point at all of these things and call that sculpting. This despite the fact that all the grooming mentioned here is what creates the well known outline of the golden retrievers.

There IS such a thing as sculpting. Sculpting that I've seen at shows goes beyond all of these things. It literally is taking a stripping knife or thinning shears to the whole body of the dog and approaching a golden retriever the same way terrier breeders approach their dogs. 

That's using that stripping knife to create better front angles, to make the dog look compact (vs long in body), to make a dog look "younger", to create a level topline (when the dog is either dippy or slanted), to make the dog look like he has more or less leg under him, etc. It also includes extreme styles where the necks are tightly thinned out and overly groomed in a way that in nobody's imagination could be seen as natural.

Your bigger handlers out there are people who are sculpting dogs for all these areas because they know X or Y judge selects dogs from the center of the ring vs the individual exam. 

This latter bit is what the many of the long time critics (including my mentor) of "over grooming" are frustrated with. That's separate from any movement which basically only looks at show bred dogs to criticize, even if it means crossing their eyes extra hard to avoid seeing and saying anything nice about the dogs. :smile2:


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

That is what I would he referring to over grooming. So never mind my comment then lol


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Nate83 I know what you mean, I've been to several shows where some of the dogs have been sculpted to the point they appear to be molded from plastic. Gratefully they don't usually do well.
But when the tail begins to sweep the floor, it's time for a trim.


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