# Crucial Puppy Socialization/Don't Let Them Touch Ground While Unvaccinated Paradox



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I think you may be taking this to the extreme. With my pups I get them outside right away. They can be outside to potty before their 2nd set of shots (1st booster). The real issue is around other dogs. Going outside to potty and explore your yard is totally fine. I get my pups to socialize first with a few neighbors and dogs they may have that are obviously already vaccinated. After that 1st booster I let them interact with a dog at a time and then work my way up to more busier environments. I don't do dog parks really but will use them (outside the fenced area) for distraction training but never before the final boosters and rabbies shots at 16 weeks of age.


If you're taking them out to places then try not to take them to places that dogs are very common like a pet store. I didn't take Maggie anywhere before 9 weeks (1st booster shot) other then to the vet. She was only my yard and walks on the sidewalks and meeting neighbors.


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## Cait (May 3, 2018)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> I think you may be taking this to the extreme. With my pups I get them outside right away. They can be outside to potty before their 2nd set of shots (1st booster). The real issue is around other dogs. Going outside to potty and explore your yard is totally fine. I get my pups to socialize first with a few neighbors and dogs they may have that are obviously already vaccinated. After that 1st booster I let them interact with a dog at a time and then work my way up to more busier environments. I don't do dog parks really but will use them (outside the fenced area) for distraction training but never before the final boosters and rabbies shots at 16 weeks of age.
> 
> 
> If you're taking them out to places then try not to take them to places that dogs are very common like a pet store. I didn't take Maggie anywhere before 9 weeks (1st booster shot) other then to the vet. She was only my yard and walks on the sidewalks and meeting neighbors.


I know it's probably overkill and I'm being way too neurotic and overprotective but in the back of my mind, I can't help but think you can never be too careful! One GRF member just posted an update on his thread about their puppy who had to be euthanized this morning due to catching distemper. Just a matter of weeks and she's now gone. ?


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Yes I'm aware of Aria. Very sad to hear. Odds are possible but certainly not 100%, that her dog may have been exposed to distemper before she brought her home. It was only 2 weeks before she showed symptoms. This is why it is important for her to let the breeder know about this as soon as possible.

This is what I found online about the time for symptoms to show for distemper.

One to six weeks for the majority of cases with most showing signs within one to four weeks. When do dogs infected with distemper become contagious? Up to five days prior to the onset of clinical signs.

Anyway, do what you feel you're comfortable with. That's the best advise I can offer but as long as you're only allowing for controlled visits with friends/neighbors and with a few dogs you know are well vaccinated and healthy, you shouldn't have a problem  again this is once you have that 1st booster at roughly 9 weeks.


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## Izziebeth (Mar 26, 2018)

My vet is very conservative in her advice about my puppy who is now 14 weeks. They still don’t want me to put her on the floor going into their office even ... (might need the wheelbarrow for the next trip lol).

So, yes, I understand the dilemma and don’t really know the answer.

We had to euthanize a puppy just prior to getting this one (she had congenital defects in her gut) and lost our 7 year old dog a few months before that ... so ... I am super cautious. ... Possibly too cautious.

I am also really sick of the house since we did the first month of puppy life twice. :/

We’ve been walking her around the neighborhood, taking her to puppy classes, and visiting with dogs whose owners we know and trust ... but, oh, I am so looking forward to getting out to the parks and trails!


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

With Luna my GSD from 8 weeks old she went with me to places, she already had two parvo/distemper shots by her 8th week. When she needed to go potty i would look for the place i would bring my dog and not go there. As long as you watch your dog and make sure they do not chew on things or play with stranger pets or animals there is a slight chance you would caught something. for me personally it comes down to a socialized dog versus a none socialized one and people who have had none socialized ones they would agree socialization takes present.


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## Cait (May 3, 2018)

Izziebeth said:


> My vet is very conservative in her advice about my puppy who is now 14 weeks. They still don’t want me to put her on the floor going into their office even ... (might need the wheelbarrow for the next trip lol).
> 
> So, yes, I understand the dilemma and don’t really know the answer.
> 
> ...


LOL, I've considered a little red wagon! :laugh: Paired with my handsome boy wearing a bandana, it gives off the adorable/quirky vibe instead of crazy dog lady with a puppy stroller vibe, hahaha. I asked my husband yesterday if he thought I'd be ridiculous if I carried our boy in a sling like a baby down my front and I got a very firm yes. 

I want my pup to be well-socialized but safety is really my top priority right now. I've scheduled a vet appointment the day after we take him home so I'm gonna ask the vet all my crazy questions. I'm literally moving to the area 2 days before picking him up (my husband is Air Force and we're moving duty stations; there won't even be furniture in the home yet and our pup will have a better setup than us) so I don't know the canine disease rates in the area, I don't know ANYONE there (never lived in this state) or have a support sytem outside of my husband (and vet, I guess), so I'm going to try to enroll in puppy classes as soon as possible and ask my vet office if they know of any puppy playgroups or Golden hangouts. I want him to be well-socialized but not just by me taking him to Lowe's, letting him listen to the sounds around the city, and letting people pet him. I also want him to make friends his age because I know 6 months down the line, we're gonna start having issues with neutered dogs being aggressive towards him for being intact (breeder contract says we can't neuter until 18-24 months, and I'm erring on the side of 24 months because I want him to be fully mature before snipping).


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## Cait (May 3, 2018)

Nate83 said:


> With Luna my GSD from 8 weeks old she went with me to places, she already had two parvo/distemper shots by her 8th week. When she needed to go potty i would look for the place i would bring my dog and not go there. As long as you watch your dog and make sure they do not chew on things or play with stranger pets or animals there is a slight chance you would caught something. for me personally it comes down to a socialized dog versus a none socialized one and people who have had none socialized ones they would agree socialization takes present.


I'll be taking him home at 10 weeks and my breeder said he'll have gone through his second round of shots by then and she said that he would probably be fine, so that's great, but I'm again just being crazy cautious and overprotective. I agree that socialization is very important, which is why I'm going to take him everywhere he's allowed but I really don't think I'll be putting him down and I may have to establish a routine like socialize for 1-2 hours, go home to let him play, potty, nap, etc., and then go out to socialize again.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

You do want to be careful with your pup, your Vet should be able to tell you what to look for and avoid. 


Here's a socialization check list that might help-

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...p-1-year/196618-socialization-check-list.html


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Cait said:


> I'll be taking him home at 10 weeks and my breeder said he'll have gone through his second round of shots by then and she said that he would probably be fine, so that's great, but I'm again just being crazy cautious and overprotective. I agree that socialization is very important, which is why I'm going to take him everywhere he's allowed but I really don't think I'll be putting him down and I may have to establish a routine like socialize for 1-2 hours, go home to let him play, potty, nap, etc., and then go out to socialize again.


 if your pup has 2 rounds of shot as did Luna my vet said you are fine to bring her to places that she will not interact with animals, watch for the pup eating things because they can pick up bad stuff that way. Luna walks on the ground, think of it this way; the puppy walking around they can pick up the same things a stranger coming over to say hi can so you would have to stop people from coming over or you would have to have a bucket of bleach at the front door, yes i know people do that for puppies that have not gotten any shot. the one thing i do not mess around with is her playing with stranger dogs, if i do not know who they or if they have had full vaccinations then she doesn't play with them.


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## Gleepers (Apr 20, 2016)

Talk with your local vet. 
Areas will have higher or lower incidence of certain diseases. Also vaccination compliance can vary by area. Local vet can give you a good idea on how much you should be concerned.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

^^^^ This, exactly.

A lot depends on where you live. Where I am, for example, there are zero strays, and next to no distemper or parvo. Vaccination rates are very high. So I had the okay from my vet to have my pup out around my home with no restrictions (but not to parks and other more highly contaminated areas). I simply asked every one who came along with a dog if they were fully vaccinated - and they all were. We were out every 30-60 minutes, and every time we were out, we'd get tons of attention. It's really great for a puppy to meet so many new people at that age. 

We also started puppy classes six days after she came home. The rule was, every puppy in the class had to be at the same vaccination level (or higher). There was little to no risk.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Gleepers said:


> Talk with your local vet.
> Areas will have higher or lower incidence of certain diseases. Also vaccination compliance can vary by area. Local vet can give you a good idea on how much you should be concerned.


Bump. i third this lol


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## kellyguy (Mar 5, 2014)

I'd advise you to review the reason that puppies aren't considered "vaccinated" until they are 16 weeks. Immunity from early vaccinations often does not take because of the presence of maternally transmitted antibodies will prevent the vaccines from triggering the long term immune response that the vaccines are designed to create.
I confined our walks to on leash and on our property during the first 4 months, and even went to areas during the pit stops on our trip home on his "gotcha day" that were prohibited to keep away from the areas where there were likely to have been used by un-vaccinated dogs.
I carried my puppy into the vets and kept him off the floors.
To some it might seem overly cautious and paranoid, but we have problems with stray dogs, coyotes and raccoons coming onto our property.
Being extra cautious is a minor inconvenience compared to the heartbreak of losing a puppy.


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

I'd talk to your vet, and look into how common parvo and distemper etc are in your area. I live in an urban environment and there are a ton of dogs in my building and on my street--they all get taken out for walks and potty breaks for everyone are basically right outside the door to my building. So when she was little I carried her 100feet or so down the street to an area that isn't used as much. I kept her away from dog poo. I only introduced her to a few adult dogs who I knew were vaccinated, AND who I knew liked puppies (not all dogs do). And we went to a puppy class that required vaccinations. 

Honestly, the first week or two, much of the socialization your pup will be getting is around the house, and your yard (if you have one). After she had her second set of shots, I increased her exposures some, and we went on some very short walks around the neighborhood. If I saw a dog I didn't know, or didn't want her to interact with, I just picked her up. I did take her to places like Lowes and a local mall, and let her potty before going back in the car--but there aren't a ton of dogs running around places like that. Avoid places like pet stores, since so many people bring their dogs. Also dog parks. We didn't go to our dog park until a few weeks after she received her last set of shots, and even then went in off hours when no one was around--but more because I don't like dog parks in general, and also, not all dogs like puppies. I did actually keep her in my lap at the vet--because it felt like a more high risk place to me. If you're at all concerned, just pick your puppy up, and don't be afraid to tell people no if they want to introduce their dog. 

The biggest thing to remember is to take your puppy to the vet right away if they start acting sick or you're concerned they are sick (or start having bad diarrhea). Puppy diarrhea is super common, but parvo can take puppies down fast (a matter of hours). Keep your puppy on the food they were on at your breeder's place to prevent them from getting diarrhea.


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## Boogie (May 12, 2018)

I raise Guide Dog pups in the U.K. Keir is 11 months old now. Until the pups are one week past their final vaccination we carry them everywhere. Yes, they get _heavy_!


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

I chose socialization over disease. At four months old, the puppy is too big to carry. I carried my pup everywhere because luckily he LOVED being carried. I held him on my lap and he watched the world go by, got used to the sounds and sights of life around him, and when I wanted to let him down to explore, I did so in trusted locations or places where dogs do not frequent or in places where dogs do frequent, but only adult competition dogs with responsible owners. I did not take him to Petco or PetSmart. I chose the Lowes and Home Depots I took him to very carefully. I took him to Coastal Farm and Ranch. I took him into bars when allowed and dined and drank outside when I could. I took him to the food carts. I took him to farms (my agility instructor has a working farm with turkeys, pigs, chickens, horses, ponies, cows, sheep, etc.), my friend's apartment in the city (with an elevator), another friend's wooded home, to soccer games up the street, etc. I did NOT allow him to visit with strange dogs ever. I said no to people who wanted to pet him and feed him unless I had his attention and then I let people pet him while I fed him. No dog parks. Only training facilities that you trust (no Petco or PetSmart) where all dogs in the location are vaccinated. Ask your vet about parvo in your area as well as other infectious diseases. Some places are worse than others. When I worked in vet care, I never saw Parvo or Distemper. I worked in a day clinic in the 'burbs and then the 4-midnight shift at a 24-hour urban e-vet on the weekends. It was a long time ago, so, again ask your vet what they are seeing. Some areas do have more instances of these diseases than others.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

I second what FosterGolden says. It's very important to get them out and about, and there are lots of places where you can do that safely. In addition to FosterGolden's list, I took my pup to the hairdresser's, to the garage when my car was repaired, to dogless neighbours' homes, to an indoor shopping mall (with special permission), where he was able to go in stores, to a daycare/preschool, and so on. Multi-storey parking lots are good for different surfaces and steps (metal staircases in particular). 



What FosterGolden said about never greeting unknown dogs is very important, not just from a disease standpoint but also because you don't know how those dogs are going to react to a puppy. My pup was only allowed to greet and play with dogs I knew well. I would not ever take a young dog, vaccinated or not, to a dog park. It's important for your dog to be comfortable with other dogs, but it's a very small part of the socialization process. Much more important that the pup be exposed to the world in which he will live and, at the same time, learn to trust you and to focus on you despite all the distractions. If you're nervous about things and freaky about him touching the ground, he's going to pick up on your nervousness and will in turn become nervous about being out and about.


My advice would be to choose your destinations carefully, but to enjoy the experience while out and about.


Good luck!


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I took mine to places where there aren’t a lot of other dogs. Mine mainly went to cabelas and field and stream with me. I would carry them the whole time.


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## Cait (May 3, 2018)

Boogie said:


> I raise Guide Dog pups in the U.K. Keir is 11 months old now. Until the pups are one week past their final vaccination we carry them everywhere. Yes, they get _heavy_!





Abeille said:


> I took mine to places where there aren’t a lot of other dogs. Mine mainly went to cabelas and field and stream with me. I would carry them the whole time.


I'm seriously going to get SO strong! :laugh: I need it, though. I'm the tiniest nurse on my floor and always need help boosting patients, lol!



FosterGolden said:


> I chose socialization over disease. At four months old, the puppy is too big to carry. I carried my pup everywhere because luckily he LOVED being carried. I held him on my lap and he watched the world go by, got used to the sounds and sights of life around him, and when I wanted to let him down to explore, I did so in trusted locations or places where dogs do not frequent or in places where dogs do frequent, but only adult competition dogs with responsible owners. I did not take him to Petco or PetSmart. I chose the Lowes and Home Depots I took him to very carefully. I took him to Coastal Farm and Ranch. I took him into bars when allowed and dined and drank outside when I could. I took him to the food carts. I took him to farms (my agility instructor has a working farm with turkeys, pigs, chickens, horses, ponies, cows, sheep, etc.), my friend's apartment in the city (with an elevator), another friend's wooded home, to soccer games up the street, etc. I did NOT allow him to visit with strange dogs ever. I said no to people who wanted to pet him and feed him unless I had his attention and then I let people pet him while I fed him. No dog parks. Only training facilities that you trust (no Petco or PetSmart) where all dogs in the location are vaccinated. Ask your vet about parvo in your area as well as other infectious diseases. Some places are worse than others. When I worked in vet care, I never saw Parvo or Distemper. I worked in a day clinic in the 'burbs and then the 4-midnight shift at a 24-hour urban e-vet on the weekends. It was a long time ago, so, again ask your vet what they are seeing. Some areas do have more instances of these diseases than others.





ceegee said:


> I second what FosterGolden says. It's very important to get them out and about, and there are lots of places where you can do that safely. In addition to FosterGolden's list, I took my pup to the hairdresser's, to the garage when my car was repaired, to dogless neighbours' homes, to an indoor shopping mall (with special permission), where he was able to go in stores, to a daycare/preschool, and so on. Multi-storey parking lots are good for different surfaces and steps (metal staircases in particular).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for all these great suggestions! Yes, just as I heavily researched pups and breeders and all things Golden, I'm certainly going to research areas to take Chicken because having a well-socialized dog is VERY important to me, one of the most important things, in fact. I've accepted the fact that I'm going to become super jacked from carrying him around everywhere and will be incredibly vigilant in choosing where, if ever, I put him down and walk him. I never planned on allowing strange dogs to greet him or he greet them. I plan on asking for a bunch of resources from my vet, not only inquiring about the disease rates, but about puppy groups I can join and socialize with, good areas to take Chicken as a youngster, etc., and I'll ask my trainer about this, too. It's just doubly hard since I'll be new to the area myself but these are all great places to start!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I just think you need to rely on common sense. 

And sometimes people DO go overboard and silly with socializing. I'm not going to speculate on what goes through some people's heads when they bring puppies to random stores and walk up and down the aisles looking for attention. There was somebody doing that at a recent show. They had a young golden pup and were looking for golden retrievers in the grooming set ups, walking right up to the set ups, and getting their pup to meet the dogs in the crates... they even picked up their puppy to stuff him in the faces of puppies who were there for puppy sweepstakes and get the puppies to meet. People were polite, but you could see eyes widen and "holy hell" looks exchanged. 

Most of us are not at dog shows for the dogs to interact. Dog shows are a petri dish of disease. Most cases, your dog will be exposed to stuff - but on a minimal scale as long as the dogs are not directly interacting, licking each others faces, doing doggy butt checks, etc. And of course, potty areas at dog shows are the WORST.  

The above is what I think about as far as people doing socialization ALL WRONG. 

Maybe the pup being walked around is going to be just fine, but a lot of us had "we don't know what crappy germ-infused daycare this pup was in all week + whose crate did he sniff before mine" thoughts going through our heads when the pup was walked right up to crates to sniff dogs the dogs inside.

Dogs DO and can carry kennel cough, flues, gastro intestinal viruses, etc... without being sick. Interacting DIRECTLY with these dogs can infect your dog. Add some stress and odds are your pup will get sick. 

Those are things to think about and worry about with your pup. Because odds are there really isn't a lot of parvo or distemper bugs floating around where you live. But giardia and other nasty bugs are absolutely a concern. 

Not saying you should be neurotic, but give it some thought before taking your dog to communal potty areas, dog parks, walking around petstores, and visiting the neighbor's dogs (who might be fully vaccinated, but for all you know they were kenneled recently or just spent the weekend at a dog park). 

Socializing your pup in ten million stores and getting ten million people to touch and visit your pup - may honestly not be as important as taking your pup someplace non-stress every day and getting him completely used to people/places/rides in cars, etc.... in types of situations that will be NORMAL for the rest of your dog's life.

This means - 

If you have kids and go pick the kids up from school or after school activities, bring the pup with. 

If you are running errands and have somebody to sit in the car with the pup or sit outside the store with the pup? Do that.

If you have an older dog in classes - bring your pup (with permission) to class. Have the pup in a crate and hanging out. He gets to visit your friends and their dogs on a minimal basis before and after class. <= with my youngest guy, there was really only one dog that he got to play with before or after class. She was a field-bred golden who was barely bigger than him (LOL) and super-perfect with puppies. 

Just interacting with one dog who is PERFECT and no cause for alarm can translate to your dog being OK with most other dogs.

Negative occurrences or interactions with any dog can likewise bleed over and cause some "caution" in your pup around other dogs. <= Unless he's completely fluff inside, in which case, he's never going to have a problem with any dog whether you socialize him like crazy or not. 

Same thing is true of people. Some people can be spooky to dogs... and likewise their owners. 

If your dog gets to meet all the people in your life (neighbors, friends, family), and is taken for car rides every day to go somewhere SPECIAL (ie, picking up your kids and meeting their classmates) - he's going to be OK. 

To the basics about whether or not to let your pup touch the ground? Yes. You can. Just don't let him touch the ground in communal potty areas.  

Personally speaking, I used to carry Bertie part of the way when I'd walk the dogs about 1/2 a mile or so? <= Would have preferred just walking him up the road and back, which I did with Jacks when HE was a puppy, but by the time Bertie came along, Jacks was climbing the walls with less than a 1/2 mile walk (he was used to 3 mile daily walks). 

Carrying him was less about germs and more about not overdoing exercise and stressing out little puppy muscles.


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