# Which breeder is more genuine?



## Argo_007 (Mar 30, 2013)

Hello all, 

My husband and I have been looking for breeders for a couple of months now. We have shortlisted 2 breeders which are in our price range ($700 - $900):

1. The first breeder has an OFA certificate for the mom of the puppy but not for the dad (as the dad is less than 2 years old). She done the dad's PENN-HIP program and result states that it falls somewhere in the middle of all the hip ex-rays they have studied, somewhere in the few thousands, so his hips are good. She does not give a 1 year health guarantee. Moreover, the pup will only be checked by the breeder's vet for the initial clearance. 

2. The second breeder on the other hand is giving a 1 year health guarantee against the hereditary/ congenital diseases and gives 30 days for the buyer's vet to check up and return if any concerning issues are found. The downside, she does not do OFA cert. She has the parents and some of the grandparents on-site. She lives on a ranch and states that her goal is to produce healthy happy affordable goldens to good homes that will love them for life. Also, OFA clearance does not always guarantee no issue. Everytime I talk to her or email her, she has been asking me to come and meet the parents, grandparents and the full brother of the upcoming litter.

We are not sure which of the breeder is more genuine and which direction to go in. We definitely plan to visit the breeder before we take a decision. however, if we had to choose 1 based on the info above, which would that be.

Please note, for both of these breeders, the pup will be rehomed in end of May - beginning of June. 

Thank you in advance for your help!


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

I'm waiting to hear from experienced members, but my guess is neither.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I'd pass on both--neither is doing the breed any favors. While clearances aren't a guarantee, they absolutely do lessen the odds of a pup suffering from a debilitating condition such as hip or elbow dysplasia or dropping dead as a youngster due to heart failure or going blind. The breeders want you to come visit cause they know once they dangle a cute golden puppy in front of a potential buyer, logic flies out the window which is why to confirm clearances (generations of clearances) are in place prior to stepping foot on the property. Keep in mind, clearances are the bare minimum when it comes to breeding responsibly.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm sorry that I'm not going to give you the answer you wanted, but I would run away from either of the scenarios you describe. It doesn't sound like either breeding comes from a complete clearance background, which means you aren't getting a puppy with the deck stacked in his or her favor.

If these dogs are on the expensive side, as you imply, you can almost certainly get a puppy with a better shot at a long, healthy life and stable temperament.


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## Argo_007 (Mar 30, 2013)

These breeders are not super expensive. They are in the $700 - $900 price range which is not the most expensive for the CA region that I live in.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Argo_007 said:


> These breeders are not super expensive. They are in the $700 - $900 price range which is not the most expensive for the CA region that I live in.


There's the reason why!


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

If your goalisto breed healthy goldens you would do the screenings. 

I say keep looking.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Sorry, but these folks have put nothing into their dogs and are clearing $700-900 per puppy sounds like a great money making business for them on the backs of their goldens and at the expense of the pups they're producing. Are you prepared financially for a discount pup? Hips/elbows $5K a pop? 

Save your money and support a reputable breeder--you'll be happy that you did.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

I know of very few quality breeders in this price range. They do exist but are very hard to find.



Argo_007 said:


> These breeders are not super expensive. They are in the $700 - $900 price range which is not the most expensive for the CA region that I live in.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

I would just wait til a later date and save more money for the purchase price of a great Golden.


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## Argo_007 (Mar 30, 2013)

Do you know of any breeders in the California region. I live in the North CA region but dont mind driving. Thanks!


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

Hi Argo,

My thought on these two breeders is the same as everyone else's unfortunately. If you are going to purchase an animal without proper clearances you're taking a big risk. Well, bigger than you have to. 

I would suggest a couple of options:

A.) Save more money, and wait until you can afford a breeder you can be confident in. I know that right now that 6 extra months is an interminable wait, but it would be so very worth it. 

B.) If you are comfortable accepting an animal that is a medical unknown (which buying a puppy from either of these breeders would be), may I suggest you look into rescuing a Golden from a Rescue shelter. You would be doing the breed a world of good by rescuing an animal that needs it, while also not supporting an irresponsible breeder. I honestly think a rescue wouldn't be any more of a risk than a pup from those breeders. You could set aside the rest of your money in a savings account for potential medical issues down the road as a rescue should be much cheaper than either of those breeders. That could buy you a little peace of mind. 

Just a thought. 

Good luck in your search!


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## Seagodess (Dec 6, 2012)

I will ignore all the clearance stuff, everyone else has put in enough info on that. I'll just answer the question. If you really want to go with one of these people, I would go with the 2nd one, mainly because they offer the 1 year health guarentee and you would be able to meet other members of the family.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

How about Scotts 24K goldens? Or start with them and see if they could make a recommendation.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

As far as the penn hip is concerned, I had a penn hip done on 2 dogs, a male and a female. The male came back in the 90th percentile and when his OFA was done he came back good. The female was in the 50th percentile and when her OFA came back it showed mild displaysia even thought the penn hip showed no radio-graphic evidence of displaysia. I wouldn't rely on a prelim or penn hip any more. 

As far as the 1 year guarantee, check to make sure that you don't have to return the puppy for to take advantage of the guarantee. There are breeders out there that have a 1 or 2 year guarantee but stipulate that you have to return the dog. I don't know too many people willing to give up their dog after having them for a year or 2, which make that guarantee useless.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Argo_007 said:


> Do you know of any breeders in the California region. I live in the North CA region but dont mind driving. Thanks!


I used Essex Golden Retrievers in Lodi. BREEDER OF: GOLDEN RETRIEVER PUPPIES FOR SALE & HUNTING GOLDEN RETRIEVERS IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA

I would ask others also to see what they say. We got a lovely pup.


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

Gwen_Dandridge said:


> I used Essex Golden Retrievers in Lodi. BREEDER OF: GOLDEN RETRIEVER PUPPIES FOR SALE & HUNTING GOLDEN RETRIEVERS IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA
> 
> I would ask others also to see what they say. We got a lovely pup.


Wow, Topbrass Portrait of Belle is beautiful!!


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## LoveMyGoldenBo (Mar 31, 2013)

I got my golden through Shadalane, which is in Southern California. He came with all his clearances, and a three year health guarantee. Shadalane is one of the pricier breeders, but Alan has a good reputation, and is comparible price wise with the other breeders in So.Cal. My boy just turned two, has always been very healthy, and was worth every penny


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

drofen said:


> Wow, Topbrass Portrait of Belle is beautiful!!


Yep, she is Maddie's grandmother. TopBrass is one of the really, really good breeders of field goldens. 

I didn't think much of Picture Me Kate's head, but Maddie's is fairly nice. I'll add a photo or two here.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I guess it matters what you are comfortable with. I have met some wonderful dogs that have come from "Back yard breeders". Dont ask others what their guidelines for dogs are set your own. However that price is way to expensive for either of those two breeders you listed they would be lucky to get $300 from me since their dogs arent screened. Just because a dog comes from a "BYB" does not mean its going to be a horrible health problem and a horrible dog. I have met some dogs that have come from very reputable breeders who have many issues wrong with them and I have met dogs that came from in breeding that have been healthy their whole lives...


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Our first golden was from a byb and was superb, another friend of mine got one from a byb and he was awful: hip dyplasia, stupid and huge. He died early of cancer. He was a golden though, sweet and loving.


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## Argo_007 (Mar 30, 2013)

Thank you all for your feedback and suggestion. 

If I had to choose between a breeder who provides all the certification versus someone who gives a 2 years health guarantee but no certification (or maybe OFA certification for only one of the parent), which is better?


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## Argo_007 (Mar 30, 2013)

MikaTallulah said:


> If your goalisto breed healthy goldens you would do the screenings.
> 
> I say keep looking.


I am looking at finding a good family pet. No plans on future breeding.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Argo_007 said:


> I am looking at finding a good family pet. No plans on future breeding.


But you want a good family pet that is healthy & acts like a golden right? If the answer is yes, you want a breeder who is doing everything they can to produce pups according to the breed standard. Someone who is breeding the family pets willy nilly isn't someone that can provide this to you.

ETA a post from LJack:
*Originally Posted by LJack  
This is a question that a lot of puppy buyers have. I don't want a show dog, why should I care about champions or performance titles in the pedigree?

1. When you buy from a breeder who is actively competing and showing, they are out there in the fancy. They are talking to other breeders, attending seminars, gaining knowledge of structure, heritable diseases, bloodlines and care. This means they are not working in a vacuum.

2. Breeders who compete are actively looking to improve their line. That litter they are producing is one they are hoping will produce the next step in their program. They are working for themselves. You reap the benefit since there are usually a small number of show quality, the rest are pets. Ever hear the addage you work harder when your selfemployed? It is the same philosophy here. 

3. Structure, structure structure. Breeders who compete will have more structurally sound dogs. In addition the core four clearences, the dog's structure will determine if it will live most of it's life comfortable with activity or not able to go and do because of structural break down. This is where those Champion titles really come in. Champions are not judged on beauty, but it is a really nice by-product. They are judged on structure, angulation, movement, etc. Your pet puppy will benefit from these attributes.

4. Temperament. I want a dog that comes from stock that has been out in the world doing something. Dogs who compete and title not only prove themselves in that venue, but also that they can handle life beyond their home. Dogs that stay at home may have great temperaments but, how do they behave away from home in stressful conditions. Dogs that compete are exposed to these stresses and succeed.

5. My vanity. Okay, it is hard to look at a golden puppy an not think what a cutie! But, if I have chosen to buy a puppy and not rescue, I want my dog to be gorgeous. Call it vain, but that is what I want. I know that with parents that are proven in competition that is going to run in the line. I want things like proper coat, dark pigment, great structure, lovely top lines, fantastic headpieces, and lovely expression.

A word on champions in the grand parents generation and further back...if there are not titles in the parents generation, those grand parents titles don't mean much in the grand scheme of things. Quality can be lost in just a generation or two of careless breeding. It is not necessary for both parents to be titled, but it would be nice. At least one should be.

It always boggles my mind when less than reputable breeders point to the Champions in the grandparent or great-grandparent generation as a selling point.:doh:
They know that these titles are important and tough to get so they claim that their dog is just as good with out doing anything to "prove" them in competition.*


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Argo_007 said:


> Thank you all for your feedback and suggestion.
> 
> If I had to choose between a breeder who provides all the certification versus someone who gives a 2 years health guarantee but no certification (or maybe OFA certification for only one of the parent), which is better?


Personally I would go with the health guarantee. A good family pet does not have to come from a reputable breeder. I know several people who have poorly bred dogs who are excellent with the family and kids (My poodle mix and Rottie were prime examples of this). Just because a dog is back yard bred/poorly bred does not mean it will be a horrible family pet  I have met several dogs from reputable breeders who have bitten kids or adults or just are not wired right. Its all about how the dog was treated and raised.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> I guess it matters what you are comfortable with. I have met some wonderful dogs that have come from "Back yard breeders". Dont ask others what their guidelines for dogs are set your own. However that price is way to expensive for either of those two breeders you listed they would be lucky to get $300 from me since their dogs arent screened. Just because a dog comes from a "BYB" does not mean its going to be a horrible health problem and a horrible dog. I have met some dogs that have come from very reputable breeders who have many issues wrong with them and I have met dogs that came from in breeding that have been healthy their whole lives...


You can definitely get lucky, regardless of how bad the breeder's practices are. You can also get unlucky, regardless of how good those practices are. However, when you're looking at putting the money down or, more importantly, risking pain and suffering for a dog, it makes financial and ethical sense to hedge those bets as far as you can with reasonable precautions.


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## Seagodess (Dec 6, 2012)

> I guess it matters what you are comfortable with. I have met some wonderful dogs that have come from "Back yard breeders". Dont ask others what their guidelines for dogs are set your own. *However that price is way to expensive for either of those two breeders you listed* they would be lucky to get $300 from me since their dogs arent screened. Just because a dog comes from a "BYB" does not mean its going to be a horrible health problem and a horrible dog. I have met some dogs that have come from very reputable breeders who have many issues wrong with them and I have met dogs that came from in breeding that have been healthy their whole lives...


I agree with this. My pup was from a BYB and was less than half of the cost of what the ones you are looking at.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Argo_007 said:


> Thank you all for your feedback and suggestion.
> 
> If I had to choose between a breeder who provides all the certification versus someone who gives a 2 years health guarantee but no certification (or maybe OFA certification for only one of the parent), which is better?


If you do out the math, you want a breeder who does all the certifications. That's worth a lot more than any guarantee (especially since most people who don't do clearances only have a guarantee that goes into effect if you give the dog back). Clearances cut risks by half at least, so they pay for themselves in the long run many times over.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> A good family pet does not have to come from a reputable breeder.


Every dog deserves to have the deck stacked in his favor, whether he's "just" a pet or not. Disreputable breeders aren't doing what it takes to stack that deck.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> You can definitely get lucky, regardless of how bad the breeder's practices are. You can also get unlucky, regardless of how good those practices are. However, when you're looking at putting the money down or, more importantly, risking pain and suffering for a dog, it makes financial and ethical sense to hedge those bets as far as you can with reasonable precautions.


I was just bit in the face and received 7 stitches last week from a dog from a breeder who breeds for temperament. She breeds the work drive out of her dogs. My Rottie, who was so horribly bred I wouldnt surprised to learn he was in bred was the sweetest thing on Earth...


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> I was just bit in the face and received 7 stitches last week from a dog from a breeder who breeds for temperament. She breeds the work drive out of her dogs. My Rottie, who was so horribly bred I wouldnt surprised to learn he was in bred was the sweetest thing on Earth...


Would love to know who the breeders were for each as I seriously doubt they were reputable.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> I was just bit in the face and received 7 stitches last week from a dog from a breeder who breeds for temperament. She breeds the work drive out of her dogs. My Rottie, who was so horribly bred I wouldnt surprised to learn he was in bred was the sweetest thing on Earth...


There are no guarantees, but the potential for dogs to have temperament problems is a reason to make sure you buy from a good breeder, not a reason to say that it doesn't matter where you get a dog.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> Would love to know who the breeders were for each as I seriously doubt they were reputable.



For each? My Rottie was a BYB no idea who the breeder was just some guy out of his house. 

For the other one since its not my dog its not my place to say the breeders information...sorry.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I can't really speak for Rotties, but among great Golden breeders who show and work their dogs, dogs with serious temperament problems are _incredibly_ rare.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I can't really speak for Rotties, but among great Golden breeders who show and work their dogs, dogs with serious temperament problems are _incredibly_ rare.


My neighbours Golden has attacked two dogs in the last 3 years seriously injuring one. Only a matter of time before she bites a human. She was from a reputable breeder in my area who shows and does her health screening with the proper people (OFA, Cardiologist, Ophthalmologist). Why is she so nasty if she came from a good breeder...the owners raised a GSD previously and this dog turned out wonderful why has this Golden turned out so weird?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> My neighbours Golden has attacked two dogs in the last 3 years seriously injuring one. Only a matter of time before she bites a human. She was from a reputable breeder in my area who shows and does her health screening with the proper people (OFA, Cardiologist, Ophthalmologist). Why is she so nasty if she came from a good breeder...the owners raised a GSD previously and this dog turned out wonderful why has this Golden turned out so weird?


I have no idea. Either the breeder was awesome and the dog was one of those very rare dogs that's well bred but has a temperament problem (in which case, the breeder would be involved in the dog's treatment plan), or the breeder is not as reputable as you think. Or something weird happened in her development. There's really no way to know without more information.

Regardless, a dog with a bad temperament should underscore the importance of good breeding practices, not undermine it. No matter what you do, some dogs are going to have health or temperament problems, so that's all the more reason to do everything in your power to stack the deck in the first place to keep the incidence of problems as low as is humanly possible.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> My neighbours Golden has attacked two dogs in the last 3 years seriously injuring one. Only a matter of time before she bites a human. She was from a reputable breeder in my area who shows and does her health screening with the proper people (OFA, Cardiologist, Ophthalmologist). Why is she so nasty if she came from a good breeder...the owners raised a GSD previously and this dog turned out wonderful why has this Golden turned out so weird?


And who's the breeder of this golden?


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

Well if it's all a crap shoot as you suggest A1Malinois, don't I feel foolish for paying the premium for a reputable breeder. 

Guess I shoulda just gone to the pound. Probably shoulda got a captive feral pit bull. I'm sure it would be fine around my kids, I mean the chances are all 50-50 anyway, right?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

A1, wasn't the dog that bit you an English Springer Spaniel?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

As a general matter, goldens are known for their temperament. But you have to remember that the "nuture" part of a dog matters just as much as "nature." I know a dog whose relatives are all friendly and outgoing, but he was not socialized as much as his relatives as a pup (in a not great home for his first two years) so he is much less confident and has some separation anxiety. That doesn't mean the breeder did anything wrong, it means the original owners of the dog were not good owners.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

It's also possible that the Golden with the temperament problem has some sort of neurological or thyroid issue. Either of which could cause the issue you describe but neither of which would be necessarily the breeders fault.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

A1Malinois said:


> For each? My Rottie was a BYB no idea who the breeder was just some guy out of his house.
> 
> For the other one since its not my dog its not my place to say the breeders information...sorry.



Let me guess, it was not a golden retriever! Moot point...


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> Let me guess, it was not a golden retriever! Moot point...


Shouldnt matter if it was a Golden Retriever or not. They are not a special breed of dog ANY dog regardless of breed can have temperament flaws. If your saying that only Goldens purchased from reputable breeders are great family pets then why would that not apply for Rotties, Shepherd, Poodles or even Great Danes...


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

drofen said:


> Well if it's all a crap shoot as you suggest A1Malinois, don't I feel foolish for paying the premium for a reputable breeder.
> 
> Guess I shoulda just gone to the pound. Probably shoulda got a captive feral pit bull. I'm sure it would be fine around my kids, I mean the chances are all 50-50 anyway, right?


My pitbull was a rescue, no idea of her back round except fighting...and she was the sweetest thing. Never as much as a growl out of her



goldenjackpuppy said:


> A1, wasn't the dog that bit you an English Springer Spaniel?


No it was not a Springer Spaniel. It was a 100lb American Alsatian.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> And who's the breeder of this golden?


Oh Gosh, I cant remember the name this was over a year ago it was mentioned to me I believe it started with an "A"


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

A1Malinois said:


> I was just bit in the face and received 7 stitches last week from a dog from a breeder who breeds for temperament. She breeds the work drive out of her dogs. My Rottie, who was so horribly bred I wouldnt surprised to learn he was in bred was the sweetest thing on Earth...


Here's my problem with you likening this breeder to a reputable breeder of golden retrievers: they have absolutely nothing in common. The "American Alstatian" is nothing like the golden retriever breed... in fact, I am not really sure one can even call it a "breed." A little google research shows that this "breed" plans to maintain permanently open stud books to allow for a certain amount of crossbreeding. Every time a crossbreeding occurs, you lose predictability in the offspring. On top of that, you state that she is specifically breeding away from working ability -- one of the cornerstones of any breed. When you try to eliminate one trait in a breed, you never know what else may go with it. Combine that with the intermittent crossbreeding, and it's really no surprise to me that one can easily wind up with an unstable temperament in some percentage of the offspring. This is apples and oranges when the topic of discussion is reputable breeders of golden retrievers. I'm sorry you were bitten, but that doesn't make it a good idea for this person to enter the crapshoot of backyard breeding at the risk of their puppy's (and their family's) well being.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

It's not a Golden Retriever, but our next dog will be a purebred Samoyed... from a reputable breeder. This will be a pet dog. We began interviewing breeders in December of 2011 (just Washington so far, we will probably branch out to Oregon and Idaho this year) and regularly attend expos and shows which feature our favorite Sams and their owners, so I feel that I can be pretty confident in stating that there is a pretty big difference between BYBs and "reputable" breeders far beyond just the certifications and health guarantees. 

I wish every single day that we had made different choices before we got Iorek, and not just because of the way reputable breeders stack the decks of health and temperament in your favor. Reputable breeders are also such an amazing wealth of support for both your dog and YOU. Your breeder will be there to help you navigate everything from nutritional choices to training to health scares to the best of their ability (which will vary from breeder to breeder). They will also be there in the event that something catastrophic happens and you can no longer keep your dog, and you will have the comfort of knowing that they will not be going back to questionable conditions where they may be bred, harmed, or eventually sold to a lesser quality home than you were providing. They will be safe and rehomed to a fantastic second family that your breeder selects just as carefully as would be done for a brand new puppy. 

Reputable breeders are in the trenches of brand new knowledge and issues particular to your breed. For example, many reputable Golden Retriever breeders are pushing for regular thyroid screenings of breeding animals because thyroid malfunction is SO incredibly common to Golden Retrievers in particular. This is not mandatory, this is not a disorder that effects other dogs as commonly... it's something they are pushing for because they believe it's in the best interest of the breed they are coming to know inside and out. This is just one example of the many ways reputable breeders look out for the dogs above all else. 

So certainly, a breeder without certifications may love their dogs and be perfectly kind people with beautiful, gentle dogs. But by the very nature of not following through with certifications, they are not the kind of people that have devoted their lives and hearts to learning about the animal you're about to take on for the next upwards of 15 years. They are not stacking the deck in your favor. They are not going to have your back in the same way a reputable breeder would. Only you can decide where your priorities are.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

A1Malinois said:


> Shouldnt matter if it was a Golden Retriever or not. They are not a special breed of dog ANY dog regardless of breed can have temperament flaws. If your saying that only Goldens purchased from reputable breeders are great family pets then why would that not apply for Rotties, Shepherd, Poodles or even Great Danes...


You're right... the advice is the same regardless of the breed of dog. If one is looking to purchase a puppy from a breeder, they should find one who is reputable and who is following their particular breed club's code of ethics as regards health testing as well as competing with their dogs in 1 or more venue to prove working ability and/or stable temperament. If one does not wish to go that route, they should look into rescuing a dog. The benefit of rescue (or going to a shelter) is that the folks involved can generally give you some information about the dog's temperament, even if they have no knowledge of their background. Some people need a dog who is good with children, tolerates crowds, won't kill the cat, etc. Others are drawn to the harder cases and are equipped to help rehabilitate a dog who has issues. Each and every one of them is capable of making wonderful pets. The advice is never to just toss your hands up in the air, shrug off the responsibility we hold for keeping breeders in business, and buy from the cheapest or easiest source claiming it's a crapshoot either way while turning a blind eye to all evidence to the contrary. This is how BYBs and millers stay in business... that won't change until WE change it.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> Oh Gosh, I cant remember the name this was over a year ago it was mentioned to me I believe it started with an "A"


Yet you could remember "*She was from a reputable breeder in my area who shows and does her health screening with the proper people (OFA, Cardiologist, Ophthalmologist).*" Sorry, but I think this is some creative storytelling to support BYB breeding.

On another thread you posted "*Maximus- My Rottweiler, imported from another country...papered, parents had clearances all the works. Total for him? over $10,000 for JUST health issues. Wanna know what I paid for him after I paid for him, kennel and flight?.....$5,000.*" Yet on this thread, you said he was purchased from a BYB. It just seems like your posts are adjusted to support whatever angle your looking to push.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> Yet you could remember "*She was from a reputable breeder in my area who shows and does her health screening with the proper people (OFA, Cardiologist, Ophthalmologist).*" Sorry, but I think this is some creative storytelling to support BYB breeding.


I never said I supported BYB's firstly. Secondly, I do not recall the breeders name however when I did look at the website when He mentioned to me where she came from I saw they did all the testing. 

Call me a liar all you want I dont really care I will lose no sleep over it


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

A1Malinois said:


> My pitbull was a rescue, no idea of her back round except fighting...and she was the sweetest thing. Never as much as a growl out of her.


:doh: How did I KNOW that's what you were going to say?

My advice to you? 

Go buy a lottery ticket. 

You're like a walking lightning strike. 

It's incredible to me that you know, or have owned a dog to fit every illustration you need to make. And on top of that nearly every one is the extreme atypical case. From extremely rare vaccine reactions to getting bit in the face by a responsibly bred and raised full breed dog. I'm not doubting these things happened, I'm just stunned that _so many_ rare and extreme things happen to you. I mean the odds have got to be astronomical. SMH


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

This....from a website that promotes the America Alsatian.

_This network is solely dedicated to the American Alsatian, a rare companion breed of dog, bred to look like what we imagine as the extinct Dire wolves of prehistoric times without using any wolf content. In the pages that follow, you will find yourself entering the gentle big-hearted world of the American Alsatian._

The American Alsatian Network

It sounds like the main goal here was to create a dog that looks like a prehistoric wolf. Any wonder why there may be temperament issues with some of them?


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

Has this thread derailed far enough for everyone yet? Pages and pages of arguing. smh


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Nairb said:


> This....from a website that promotes the America Alsatian.
> 
> _This network is solely dedicated to the American Alsatian, a rare companion breed of dog, bred to look like what we imagine as the extinct Dire wolves of prehistoric times without using any wolf content. In the pages that follow, you will find yourself entering the gentle big-hearted world of the American Alsatian._
> 
> ...


That makes me think of that big experiment where they bred foxes (I think it was foxes?) for tameness. They would select for the ones that were most approachable and friendly toward humans over and over and over again... and over a few generations they started to take on traits of our modern dogs -- floppy ears, different colorings, etc. Like I said in an earlier post... you never know what traits are genetically related. So from what you posted above, it almost sounds like doing this in somewhat reverse order -- you select for a more and more wolfish look. But does the temperament eventually come along with that look as the look did with the fox's temperament? Who knows...  

To the OP: Sorry this has gone so far off topic on you... but I'm guessing from your other thread that you have moved on from these two breeders and seem to have found someone who is doing things right. I hope it all works out with that breeder (or another one who is equally reputable). Good luck!

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

drofen said:


> :doh: How did I KNOW that's what you were going to say?
> 
> My advice to you?
> 
> ...


Yep, guess I lied about getting bit in the face and having a dog who reacts to vaccines. You have no idea what I have been through with my dog and his medical problems. Many people would of just put him down or brought him to the spca because they did not wish to deal with it. Hes 6 years old now and if he wasnt with me, may not of lived past 1 when all his issues started


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Jersey's Mom said:


> That makes me think of that big experiment where they bred foxes (I think it was foxes?) for tameness. They would select for the ones that were most approachable and friendly toward humans over and over and over again... and over a few generations they started to take on traits of our modern dogs -- floppy ears, different colorings, etc. Like I said in an earlier post... you never know what traits are genetically related. So from what you posted above, it almost sounds like doing this in somewhat reverse order -- you select for a more and more wolfish look. But does the temperament eventually come along with that look as the look did with the fox's temperament? Who knows...
> 
> To the OP: Sorry this has gone so far off topic on you... but I'm guessing from your other thread that you have moved on from these two breeders and seem to have found someone who is doing things right. I hope it all works out with that breeder (or another one who is equally reputable). Good luck!
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz


That would be the Russian Silver Fox experiment


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

A1Malinois said:


> That would be the Russian Silver Fox experiment


Yup, that's the one! Thanks!

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Jesus Freak (Feb 7, 2013)

I think it's time to close this thread. Bottom line to the original question, get a dog from the best breeder you can, no there's no guarantee but you stack the odds in yours and the dogs favour. Hope everthing works out well.


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

Argo_007 said:


> Thank you all for your feedback and suggestion.
> 
> If I had to choose between a breeder who provides all the certification versus someone who gives a 2 years health guarantee but no certification (or maybe OFA certification for only one of the parent), which is better?



time to get this thread back on track. Please discuss helping the OP with their questions as they're asking about golden retrievers, and questions like the above for breeders of golden retrievers.

Thanks


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

I got my Remy from a BYB and he has been wonderful and healthy. We have not x-ray'd his hips yet, but saw his elbows in another x-ray and they are beautiful.

I got Caira from a breeder who does clearances, titles dogs, etc etc. She has been healthy thus far as well.

That being said, I have to agree that great dogs can come from BYBs, and that some BYBs are uneducated about breeding practices, not lacking passion for the breed. The BYB I got Remy from loved her dogs and I had to sign a contract stating that if I ever had to give him up, I would call her first (she would want him back). She took great care of Remy's mother during and after the pregnancy and birth, and did a great job socializing my little boy before he came home.

However, in the long run, Caira's breeder has been there for me more. He calls to check in on occasion and always answers my calls to discuss her with me. Just the other day I had to call him to ask a question about her mother. He not only answered but pulled up her vet records to get clarification for me, etc. He's awesome!

So while I support great breeders and tend to advise others away from BYBs, I do think there are good ones out there... and I would agree that ultimately you are taking a chance no matter where you get a dog (shelter/rescue/BYB/breeder), and it has to be a personal decision how much of a chance you are willing to take.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

To the OP...

I also live in Northern California and have a list of breeders I had contacted, including the breeder we got our puppy from. Unfortunately though, they are all over your price range. Can you increase your price at all? All the ones I contacted are reputable breeders and do all clearances. 

Let me know if you have any questions! 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Argo_007 (Mar 30, 2013)

SMBC said:


> To the OP...
> 
> I also live in Northern California and have a list of breeders I had contacted, including the breeder we got our puppy from. Unfortunately though, they are all over your price range. Can you increase your price at all? All the ones I contacted are reputable breeders and do all clearances.
> 
> ...


Yes, we are ready to go higher. Would be great if you can share the list of breeders that you contacted and the breeder you got your pup from. Thanks!


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

drofen said:


> *I'm not doubting these things happened, I'm just stunned that so many rare and extreme things happen to you.* I mean the odds have got to be astronomical. SMH





A1Malinois said:


> Yep, guess I lied about getting bit in the face and having a dog who reacts to vaccines. You have no idea what I have been through with my dog and his medical problems. Many people would of just put him down or brought him to the spca because they did not wish to deal with it. Hes 6 years old now and if he wasnt with me, may not of lived past 1 when all his issues started


Please see my above quote. 

And, would you please respond to the quote from another thread where you claimed to have spent $5000 purchasing your Rottweiller and flying him home? That's a lot of money to spend on some guy selling out of his backyard? And why would that puppy have to be flown in? http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/1795959-post97.html

You know what? It doesn't matter. 

Just remember,_ you're_ the one that brought up the "L" word. Twice.


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

Argo_007 said:


> Yes, we are ready to go higher. Would be great if you can share the list of breeders that you contacted and the breeder you got your pup from. Thanks!


For the record, I think you're making the right choice. Best wishes in your search. I know there's an amazing pup waiting for your family out there!

Good luck!


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Argo_007 said:


> Yes, we are ready to go higher. Would be great if you can share the list of breeders that you contacted and the breeder you got your pup from. Thanks!


Sure!

Osprey Goldens (where we got our dog and they are great breeders!)
But, I just talked to the breeder because I referred someone else to her and she said she wont have anything for awhile, but you could call her to see if she has any recommendations.

Essex Goldens
Our vet got her golden from Essex, and they seem to have puppies a lot!

Emberain Goldens
Very nice people

Firefox Goldens
She didn't return my emails, but I have heard other people get their dog from her

Sweetbreeze Goldens
Very nice woman and we almost got a golden from her, but she does have a long waiting list

Talini
Controversial...these are "english cream goldens" but the breeder is very very nice and puppies are raised in home. Very pricey though

All of these breeders you can look up online to get contact info! Best of luck on your search and if I think of anymore I'll let you know!


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Argo_007 said:


> I am looking at finding a good family pet. No plans on future breeding.


I meant if the breeder's goal is to breed healthy golden than they should do all the recommended health screenings. The majority of puppies born don't go to show or competition home but are sold as family pets even by the top Golden breeders!

I have no idea what autocorrect did to my original statement.  I did not mean for it to imply you would be looking to breed yourself. :uhoh:


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I do know Regency Goldens is expecting a litter at the end of the month. They would be going to new homes at the end of June. My Smooch's sire, Rolex, is bred/owned by Laura Franchi at Regency and she is wonderful. Highly recommend in addition Osprey, Sweetbreeze, Aubridge all in NorCal


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Argo_007 said:


> Yes, we are ready to go higher. Would be great if you can share the list of breeders that you contacted and the breeder you got your pup from. Thanks!


Nothing to say except please remember NOTHING is guaranteed. Good luck on your search.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

drofen said:


> Please see my above quote.
> 
> And, would you please respond to the quote from another thread where you claimed to have spent $5000 purchasing your Rottweiller and flying him home? That's a lot of money to spend on some guy selling out of his backyard? And why would that puppy have to be flown in? Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums - View Single Post - $1,200+ ??
> 
> ...


I have had more the one Rottweiler in my life....just like I have had more then one Shepherd in my life just like I am sure many people here have had more then one Golden in their life


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## AngieAvenue (Mar 17, 2013)

For the OP - 

Our pup will be born in two weeks and we wont receive him until June, so I can't truly speak to if it was worth it or not... but I've recently put soooo much thought in to this puppy decision, that I thought I would share my two cents. 

With any pet, no matter how well bred, or how well you take care of him/her, their may be unforeseen genetic issues or accidents could happen. As pet owners, all we can do is take the best care we can for our pets, insuring their environment is safe, taking precautions for their well being, etc. For us, that included making sure our pups pedigree was free of common genetic issues (hip/elbow/etc...) and he was well bred for a good temperament. We also decided to go with a breeder who offered references from past litters, with a history of dogs who were what we wanted. 

This came with a higher price tag... We ended up spending $500 outside our anticipated puppy budget. 

Going with a 'not so reputable breeder' was an option for us at the start. We wanted a pet - no intention to show/breed. We are willing to put in a lot of effort and training, so the temperament was not a huge issue. We chose not take such a big risk. We went through breeder after breeder until we found everyone who met every check on our checklist. 

To answer your question, think about what it is you _really_ want. If it is a true GR, with GR traits, I would wait and save up to get the best dog you can get from someone who meets all your criteria. That being said, at the end of the day, there's going to be a litter of puppies born for each of the two breeders you have listed, and I hope some one will take them home and love them regardless of any issues they may or may not have. Yes, they may have a great health and temperament, and in the same breath, they may not. For me personally, if we were going this route, we would get a shelter dog or a rescue. I would even consider getting one of these dogs, but this isn't the dog I'd spend even $500+ to get. 

Although there are no guarantees, by doing your homework and sticking to your criteria, you will (I hope...!) end up spending the extra now, but increasing your chances of saving thousands on vet bills later, and gaining more years to spend with your dog! 

Good Luck with the search! You'll make the right decision


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

AngieAvenue said:


> Although there are no guarantees, by doing your homework and sticking to your criteria, you will (*I hope*...!) end up spending the extra now, but increasing your chances of saving thousands on vet bills later, and gaining more years to spend with your dog!


I *hope* the same for the op. Afterall that's all anyone can do right?


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