# Diarrhea Dilemma



## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

Any change in food? Carson had really bad diarrea and we changed food and it got better. If you haven't changed anything maybe she's developing an allergy to something.... Just a few thoughts.


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## Baileysmom (Aug 5, 2006)

I am so sorry that you and Belle are going through this. It is not fun when our fur babies aren't feeling well. Has the vet checked for ghiardia? I know that is sometimes hard to get rid of.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

Oh I am so sorry--my first concern was an obstruction. You might go ahead and ask for an Xray while she is at the vet


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## Katiesmommy (Sep 10, 2006)

Oh man I feel so sorry for you.....................


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## Belle's Mom (Jan 24, 2007)

There is nothing that has changed as far as food, water, or anything since we got her 4 months ago.


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## thegoldenjoyride (Dec 18, 2005)

..have had explosive diarrhea before. She swallowed a snail and the shell couldn't be broken down . . . the vet suggested pepto bismol and she pooped out the rest of it..


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

This could be any of the things suggested. Barrington experienced this kind of diarrhea for the first several months he was with us, but it wasn't back-to-back, violent types of events from which poor Belle is suffering.

We ended up determining that Barro has food intolerances, and the foods he can't handle are poultry-based. We switched him to a lamb-based formula, and he's been fine ever since.

But for Belle to suddenly have this explosive diarrhea, and then to go right back to it after medical treatment, doesn't sound like a food problem, unless perhaps if you've been feeding her the regular food during these times of sickness. It's a tough problem to diagnose. Maybe you could feed Belle some bland white rice (steamed) as she comes back around. It's hard for me to suggest what to give her, though, because we almost killed Barrington with chicken broth and rice every time he was recovering from diarrhea. :doh: It took us far too long to figure that one out.


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

Another thought occurred to me. This is just another bit of information that might help as you work with your veterinarian. When Barrington was going through his ordeal, our vet, who is rather well-respected, was convinced that Barrington had some kind of parasite in his system. She prescribed Tylan powder to be regularly given to him with each meal.

The sporadic (one or twice a week) diarrhea continued. She increased the dosage, and we just went along without questioning anything. Barrington is a 38-pound dog, and he was taking a 120-pounder dose of Tylan with each meal. He was also losing weight, and the diarrhea continued.

We *finally* got a clue and thought that he might have a problem with the food we were giving him...and when you look at the ingredient list for Natura Pet's Innova, you can see that we were hammering his poulty-intolerant system with turkey, chicken, chicken meal, and eggs. It's awesome food, highly recommended, but poor Scoob just could not handle it.

We stopped the Tylan dosings, and by process of elimination, we finally figured out the things that we should avoid, and it's a simple list: poultry and oats. He came around quickly, and looking back, it all seems so simple. But it was difficult to figure out, and out vet was wrong in her diagnosis. For weeks on end, coming home to find a miserable Barrington in his diarrhea-trashed crate was never a good experience.

Good luck. Please keep us posted.


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## Prov31 (Aug 16, 2006)

We had a very similar experience and it is very scary and frustrating. Jeffreyzone did a great job describing how a food intolerance might work. Our story is almost the exact same. Even though your dog has been doing fine, they can develop an allergy/intolerance to a food at any time (even humans can as well).We also discovered that Brinkley is allergic to food with chicken in it. We also tried many of the good, holistic type of foods, but the bloody diarrhea continued. The only thing that stopped the watery yuk was to add about of tablespoon of canned pumpkin to a bland rice mixture. It works wonders.

We then found that Canidae has a new lamb and rice food that has been a miracle for us. It's a glorious day when you stop analyzing poop! What also really helped was added a few sprinkles of Eagle Pack's Holistic Transition at every meal. It is a powdered probiotic (located by Eagle's dog food) that replenishes the flora in the gut. With as much stomach upset as she has had, Belle will need something. We don't add that anymore, but added it for about a month.

I should add that the vet found no medical reason for the diarrhea, so food was the logical step. Good luck!!


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

Prov31 said:


> It's a glorious day when you stop analyzing poop!


This is so true!

It's interesting to read that your Brinkley is allergic to chicken. As you know, chicken is used in so many of the treats and such that are readily available. So, I guess that you do the same drill that we do whenever someone with good intentions starts fishing their pockets for a dog treat to offer to the dogs.

A couple of years ago, a person whom I respect suggested that maybe Barrington is not allergic to poultry. Instead, perhaps he is allergic to the corn that the chickens or turkeys ate. She recommended giving Barrington some freerange chicken. This is an interesting idea, but I've been too _chicken_ to try it!


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## Prov31 (Aug 16, 2006)

jeffreyzone said:


> This is so true!
> 
> It's interesting to read that your Brinkley is allergic to chicken. As you know, chicken is used in so many of the treats and such that are readily available. So, I guess that you do the same drill that we do whenever someone with good intentions starts fishing their pockets for a dog treat to offer to the dogs.
> 
> A couple of years ago, a person whom I respect suggested that maybe Barrington is not allergic to poultry. Instead, perhaps he is allergic to the corn that the chickens or turkeys ate. She recommended giving Barrington some freerange chicken. This is an interesting idea, but I've been too _chicken_ to try it!


Yes, I know the drill: Stop, don't give him that chicken!! All the trainers seem to use chicken...and they insist that a little bit won't hurt him. We like to use Solid Gold's Lamb Jerky treats. They break apart easily and Brinkley loves them. I'm sure that at least one of the holistic foods that we tried used free-range chicken and we still had trouble...so I'd be _chicken _too!

I'm hoping that Belle is feeling better!


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## MarleyLove (Sep 2, 2006)

Marley had problems like that for quite a while as a puppy. At first we thought it was the rawhide bones. We took those away and he did get better (still don't give them to him now as they have always upset his stomach.) Anyway, all his bloodwork, stool tests etc. came back totally normal. So, we were told boiled ground beef and white rice mixed with small amount of plain yogurt for a few weeks. For the first 4 days of that we did immodium and for a little over a week he was on flagyl. After the two weeks he went on natural balance food (he had been on chicken soup for the dog lovers soul, which was great but has several protein sources) and he hasn't had the problem since. But like Belle, we came home several times to a diarrhea crate and that just wasn't him. It was a hard time and I remember practically jumping up and down at the sight of formed poo.  :yuck: Hope you find a cause soon and that Belle feels better! (and that you can get a full nights sleep!)


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I don't know how old Belle is but any allergies in a dog under a year is somewhat rare and in a dog less than 6-months is really quite rare. Even though its theoretically possible to develop an allergic response to a protein after just one previous exposure... this almost never occurs. Its most often cited that a year or more of exposure to the protein is the norm in the case of allergic responses to specific food protein sources. Also if the antibotics appeared to work then it would seem food allergies have no bearing at all.

Poop analysis is very important...
Have you taken samples to your vet for analysis? A little something to get you started...

yellow or greenish stool - indicates rapid transit (small bowel)
black, tarry stool - indicates bleeding in the upper digestive tract
bloody stool - red blood or clots indicate bleeding in the colon
pasty, light - colored stool -indicates lack of bile (liver disease)
watery stool - indicates small bowel wall irritation (toxins and severe infections)
foamy stool - suggests a bacterial infection
greasy stool - often with oil on the hair around the anus: indicates malabsorption
excessive mucus - a glistening or jellylike appearance: indicates colonic origin
foodlike, or smelling like sour milk - suggests both rapid transit and malabsorption: for example like overfeeding
putrid smelling - suggests an intestinal infection
several in an hour, each small with straining - suggests colitis (inflammation of the large bowel)
three or four time a day, each large - suggests malabsorption or a small bowel disorder
wieght loss, malnutrition - suggests small bowel disorder
normal appetite, minimal weight loss - suggests large bowel disorder
vomiting - small bowel origin, except for colitis

There is more to write about possible causes but much of it has already been covered in other threads... you should try doing a forum search... good luck with Belle.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

monomer said:


> Poop analysis is very important...
> Have you taken samples to your vet for analysis? A little something to get you started...


How true...it is a nice day to just clean the yard and think--yup--looks good.


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## Sivin (Nov 23, 2006)

We had frequent bouts of this with our first golden, Jodie, from the time she was quite young. They were not explosive, just frequent and we went the usual route, diet changes, mild diet, etc., various medications. However, she was rarely ill and was gaining weight. Our vet suspected a food intolerance right off the bat but we persisted in trying various remedies.

When she was about 18 months she had an endoscopy done and that doctor said she did indeed have a food allergy and she found allergic cells. At the time she was on homemade chicken breasts and rice (we had tried the lamb route as well) and the doctor said she could actually be having a problem with the rice. Jodie was prescribed Eukenuba fish and potato diet which she stayed on happily for the rest of her days (nearly 12 years). We supplemented with the typical dog cookies, but that was it. She looked fine and was never ill.

Hope you resolve your problem shortly.

Helaine


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## Belle's Mom (Jan 24, 2007)

Wow - Monomer I had no idea of the poop analysis details - Thanks that was helpful.....Belle's poop is like brown mud, a little mucus rarely, but not much. I thought about taking a stool sample to the vet, but my husband looked at me kind of funny and the vet never mentioned it. If/When we go back I will definitely take a container of it for him.

I thought about this after I typed the post that I did not put her age - Belle will be 6 months February 25.

Well - she actually slept all night.....of course I did not as I was concerned. So we went to the vet this morning and he drew blood. He will not have the results for a week. (ugh.....I just love waiting) I asked him about food allergies, parasites, and various things suggested here and that I read about on the Internet. He said that he does not think that is the case. He really thinks that it is a bacteria overgrowth and that is what he will have the bloodwork testing for. He said he has seen this before and that since puppies explore with their mouths it happens and it is not totally uncommon. He said since he truly thinks it is the bacterial overgrowth he is going to start us on the treatment for that condition, which is Antibiotics, until he gets the test results. He said once he gets the test results if he is right it will be a 6 week regine of Antibiotics which should totally clear it up. If he is wrong, then we will reaccess and go from there. He wants me to call him and let him know when she has her first normal poop as he said this will tell him some info also.

The vet made me feel better and it seemed like he knew what he was talking about.....although after reading about some of your experiences I am hoping and praying that my vet has not misdiagnosed it like have been some of your experiences.....

So now the wait and see game begins.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

I was just wondering if feeding her some plain yogurt would help with balancing the bacteria? I know they recommend it for women with yeast infections--which really are not so much an infection of yeast but a lack of yeast. 

You might ask the vet.


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

njb said:


> I was just wondering if feeding her some plain yogurt would help with balancing the bacteria? I know they recommend it for women with yeast infections--which really are not so much an infection of yeast but a lack of yeast.
> 
> You might ask the vet.


That is an excellent suggestion, *njb*.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

jeffreyzone said:


> That is an excellent suggestion, *njb*.


You know in small amounts--I can't see how it will hurt. 

I know when I get a foster in that needs to gain some weight--the vets all say give them some plain yougurt with their food. I don't think it is dangerous for them and what could it hurt? I always make a point of eating extra yogurt or feeding it to the dogs whenever they or me are on antibiotics anyway--I am no microbiology person but I do know that the drugs kill off some of the bacteria we need--not all bacteria is bad.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

You know, Tylan is the atom bomb of antibiotics for doggies. If that does not work, then you should be looking elsewhere. Pehaps it could be worms (Tylan does not treat worms), but they are fairly easy to spot in a poop analysis. Your vet may not use Tylan, because it is not approved for use in dogs, however, you can buy it without an Rx (you just swear you are treating swine). Most vets save it as a last resort, and try other approved antibiotics first.


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

vrocco1 said:


> You know, Tylan is the atom bomb of antibiotics for doggies. If that does not work, then you should be looking elsewhere. Pehaps it could be worms (Tylan does not treat worms), but they are fairly easy to spot in a poop analysis. Your vet may not use Tylan, because it is not approved for use in dogs, however, you can buy it without an Rx (you just swear you are treating swine). Most vets save it as a last resort, and try other approved antibiotics first.


*You are so right*, and we did not know this when our vet prescribed Tylan for Barrington. That whole experience taught us to think for ourselves and learn as much as we can about this stuff instead of relying on one vet's opinion. If we'd have continued on that course, I doubt Barrington would have survived.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

BTW... As Monomer pointed out, it is rare, but not impossible for a young dog to develop allergies. I purchased a dog from a back-yard breeder many years ago, that was allergic to basically everything by the time he was four months old. Needless to say, he did not live a very long or healthy life. In fact, he set us off on our quest to produce a better (healthier) Golden Retriever.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

All of this just reminds me why it is important to be well informed and ask lots of questions and take responsibility for our health care--and our dogs. Thank God for the internet--it was so much harder before we had this tool. 

I am sure many of us are old enough to remember the days when the doctors ranked only slightly lower than God in authority...but the Doctor said...

I am so thankful for this technology.


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

vrocco1 said:


> BTW... As Monomer pointed out, it is rare, but not impossible for a young dog to develop allergies. I purchased a dog from a back-yard breeder many years ago, that was allergic to basically everything by the time he was four months old. Needless to say, he did not live a very long or healthy life. In fact, he set us off on our quest to produce a better (healthier) Golden Retriever.


I guess that was one reason why we didn't think that Barrington had a food intolerance. He was relatively young, about six months of age, when he came to live with us. Plus, he is a mix, so that led us to believe that he wouldn't be as susceptible to such an allergy as many of the poorly bred full Goldens we see in rescue. 

But we were wrong about that. For whatever reasons, our little guy has some problems with poultry and oats. And who knows, the diarrhea could be the reason why he ended up in the shelter.

I hope that an answer can be found for Belle soon. This kind of discussion can be of help, I hope.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Jeffery,

We cannot make any assumptions when it comes to mixing DNA. The entire process is so complex, that no one can pretend to understand it.

Belle's Mom,

One other suggestion I might make, is to have your vet perform a fecal loop, rather then you bringing a sample in a jar. Sometimes parasites show up in a fecal loop, but not a hand-carried sample because of two reasons. First, the sample comes from deeper within the large colon, and second, the sample is fresh. Many of the more troublesome parasites do not show up in a hand-carried sample, because they die long before they get to the vet’s office. Plus, many times, the vet will dissolve the sample from a fecal loop in a bed of nutrients, which makes the parasites more active, and therefore easier to spot.

Many parasites only respond to specific antibiotics. So, if they are there, it is important that they be identified before prescibing a treatment.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

Very good advice there vrocco...


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

vrocco1 said:


> Jeffery,
> 
> We cannot make any assumptions when it comes to mixing DNA. The entire process is so complex, that no one can pretend to understand it.


Well-said. It seems to be equal parts art and science. Or maybe more art than science, since the science is ridiculously complicated.

I have to wonder what that vet was thinking when she kept upping the Tylan dose on poor Barro. Over those weeks, they'd performed several fecal loops, and I don' think their test results revealed any parasites. As you said, she was just throwing the nukes at the problem rather than reconsidering her original diagnosis.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

Someone needs to develop a allergy test for dogs like they have for people--would sure save lots of trouble...


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

njb said:


> Someone needs to develop a allergy test for dogs like they have for people--would sure save lots of trouble...


Yes, it seems like the blood tests we've done for Dottie have returned somewhat clouded results. The mold indicators seemd spot-on, and after seven months of giving her injections that were formulated to address her problems, I believe she's becoming more tolerant of mold. We will know for sure by June, when the leaves will again be rotting quickly. 

We're still working on finding the right diet for her. At least with Barrington, it was relatively easy to isolate his problems, because his response to something he couldn't handle was diarrhea.

I hope Belle's problem will be isolated soon.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

excellent thread, guys... one of the best that has been on this forum.. lotta good information here..thanks to those of you that have contributed good info...


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## Belle's Mom (Jan 24, 2007)

UPDATE.......The vet called on Saturday morning. He said he was very surprised that the results of the blood work had already come back as he thought it would take a week and it only took 2 days. (I was hoping and praying it would be quick.) Anyway, he said the test confirmed that she has a bacterial overgrowth in her GI tract and that 6 weeks of Amoxocillon would take care of it and clear it up.

Just wanted to update you on the results and say THANK YOU for all of the information. Again I posted a question on here and learned so much information - Thanks a bunch!!


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

This is great news! Not great that Belle has the bacterial overgrowth, but great to know the problem. It sure is good to have conclusive test results. I hope that Belle is getting back to normal as her treatment progresses, and that the six-week treatment goes well. Please keep us posted!


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Im glad to hear you got the news quickly and Bella can start treatment......Hope she feels better soon.....


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## NancyLu (Jul 28, 2006)

Belle's Mom,
I have not been on the forum for a long time but I just finished reading your posts. My heart went out to you and I feel so bad that I wasn't on the forum when you posted. Summer Lynn went through a similar incident. She ended up in the pet hospital and was finally diagnosed with spirochetes. They are a bacteria in the intestines which causes severe diarrhea. They put her on antibiotics and she got better until two days after her treatment ended. The diarrhea came back and back she went to the vet. This time it was a bacterial build-up in the intestinal loop. She went back on another antibiotic and the vet put her on a nutritional supplement called FortiFlora. It is a 30 day program that contains live active cultures to promote intestinal balance. It has worked just fine. Unfortunately, today I took her back to the vet and she now has a bacterial skin rash on her lower neck. Back she goes on antibiotics again! Summer is going on six months old. I hope things are back to normal for you and your puppy!


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## Golden parent (Mar 4, 2007)

njb said:


> I was just wondering if feeding her some plain yogurt would help with balancing the bacteria? I know they recommend it for women with yeast infections--which really are not so much an infection of yeast but a lack of yeast.
> 
> You might ask the vet.


We had a similar issue with Ginger. She also seems to have a problem with foods containing chicken. Our vet recommended yogurt- plain, without any added sugar- approximately 1/2 cup daily for her size 54# at last visit. He said it may be given once daily, or divided doses. It seems to have made a huge improvement (even in the terrible gas she had).


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## DaisyMay's mom (Feb 27, 2007)

Diarrhea is very common in young pups and is indicative of coccidia. Our 11 week old pup had coccidia and was prescribed an antibiotic. She never really had full blown diarrhea but her stools were loose. They found the coccidia in a stool sample. So it was just a week on antibiotics and hopefully the problem has gone away--- although she still has vaginitis


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## Belle's Mom (Jan 24, 2007)

UPDATE - So we finished the 6 weeks of antibiotics on Thursday of last week. Belle has been OK, has had some solid poop and some a little less solid than I would like, but not like it was. On Saturday we were outside cleaning up all the leaf buds and a bunch of stuff that had fallen off of the trees in our backyard. She ate a bunch of stuff that had fallen off of our tree, we tried to stop her and succeeded some, but she still ate some. She threw up all of the junk on Saturday night and had a very soft poop load which we attributed to the tree eatting. The following days her poop continues to rotate between firm and softer on Sunday and Monday, it seems to have a small amount of mucus on it, but that is it.
Then today she throws up in her crate - mainly just water. When she is let outside she starts with the watery diarrhea again - 3 pretty good size loads of it. After this and throughout it, she also seems to be straining to try to poop, but nothing is coming out.
I called the vet and he said again that puppies eat stuff and that if she ate junk on Saturday then it still could be in her, etc.....It seems to me she would have blown up on Sunday or Monday then.....he said it may take another week of antibiotics to kick the bacteria out of her system. Granted when we saw him last week to get her stitches out from being spayed I mentioned that Thursday would be the last day on the antibiotics and he said at that time that he had not seen it come back once the dog completed the 6weeks of antibiotics......can you tell that I am beyond frustrated?

Any thoughts??? I mentioned parasites and everything everyone here had mentioned to me to my vet before, but the test he ran had come up positive for a bacterial overgrowth in the GI tract so that is what he believed it was.

Can eatting junk really give you these same symptoms this many days later??


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## Sheri (Mar 20, 2007)

I brought daisy home on march 16th and she had diarrhea from day 1. It was terrible, and she was only 6 weeks old. When I brought her to the vets they did a test on her poop and it showed up fine, then they gave me some medicne to coat her tummy. Well that didnt stop the poops at all. So I brought her back again, had a good talk with the dr. They gave her this pepto type stuff that had medicine in it. As well we changed her diet, AND i cut her off of all other foods (IE I have a 1 year old german shepard) and daisy would eat scooters treats. Well when i cut all taht out and just gave daisy her food her poop has been firm for 2 days now. PLUS today is the first day without the medicine and her poop is still good.

Best of luck to you.:crossfing


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## sharlin (Feb 26, 2007)

Can't really add to anything that's already been posted---just wanted to let you know NorCal pack will say an extra little prayer tonight and keep their paws crossed.


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## cosmomom (Aug 28, 2006)

I would go get a second opinion. It doesn't sound like your vet really wants to explore other possible causes. I hope Belle feels better soon, poor little thing.


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## NancyLu (Jul 28, 2006)

I am so sorry to hear that Belle continues to have the intestinal problem. It sounds exactly like what Summer went through for several months. First, it was spirochetes and then it was a bacterial build-up in her intestinal loop. She had to take two rounds of antibiotics. In that period of time, I switched to Canidae because that food has live active cultures in it to fight bacteria. During her second round of antibiotics she was spade and I was beginning to think she would never look normal from all of the places she'd been shaved. The vet also had her on the FortiFlora by Purina which really seemed to help.
Her poop began to harden and the FortiFlora stopped the diarrhea right away. 
She was off the antibiotics for two weeks and got a bacterial skin infection on her neck and just finished that round last week. They shaved all the way down her neck for that! The good news (sorry this is long) is that she has completely recovered from everything. It went on for about three months! Hang in there! Ask your vet about the FortiFlora. Dogs love the taste!


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