# Amica Goldens vs. Scion Goldens



## sdhgolden (Aug 13, 2012)

Anyone have any experience with these breeders? Anyone one have one of their puppies? If we get a second golden it would probably be from one of these two. Both seem like good breeders but I would love your input! Pros and cons about going with one vs the other? I can't decide. Thanks!


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

I think either one is good. But to make sure they are, proper health clearances must be done including hip, eye, heart, and elbows for at least 5 generations in the pedigree of the litter. 

If they do clearances, but not 'prove' their dogs by competing in the conformation ring or do obedience or any other performance events, I may check elsewhere. Good luck!


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

my aunt and uncle have a 2 year old golden from scion, but he has hip dysplatia, i do believe that other factors can come to play other than genetics with hip dysplatia, i havent seen him since he was a pup, but they are pretty satisfied with everything else, and its very mild aparently


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Tuco said:


> my aunt and uncle have a 2 year old golden from scion, but he has hip dysplatia, i do believe that other factors can come to play other than genetics with hip dysplatia, i havent seen him since he was a pup, but they are pretty satisfied with everything else, and its very mild aparently


What factors, other than genetics, do you believe came in to play in this instance?


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

i dont know, but what i do know is scions lines are pretty clear of HD, and there has been afew suspected culprits of a small percentage of other cases including diets in their first couple of months of life


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

I've done a lot of reading about hip dysplasia since my Ozzie was diagnosed. The bottom line of everything I've read is that hip dysplasia is a genetic disorder. If the dog does not have a genetic predisposition to dysplasia, it doesn't matter how crummy the food, how overweight they are, or how many times they bound up and down the stairs... they will not develop hip dysplasia. Though there are a number of other health issues that can result when these factors are ignored (knee injuries, for example). What I've gathered from my reading is that hip dysplasia results from a combination of genetic of environmental factors.... but the genetic piece does have to be there.

That said, if Scion is a breeder who is doing all of the clearances and getting out there to prove their dogs -- then they're doing everything they can. Even when you breed a clear dog to a clear dog, there is a 12% incidence of hip dysplasia. Our current method of testing (by looking for outward expression of the disease for multiple generations in a line) isn't a fool proof guarantee that reputable breeders will not produce some small percentage of dogs who may be affected over the course of their active breeding career. I hear people on this site say all the time that if a breeder tells you they've never seen cancer in their lines they are either lying or haven't been doing it long enough. I would imagine the same can probably be said of hip dysplasia.... though I'd add the caveat that it could also mean that puppy owners aren't testing (some dogs never show obvious symptoms and the typical pet owner may see no reason to take x rays). 

To the OP - good on your for doing your homework before bringing a puppy home. Sorry I'm not much help right now on looking up the breeders, but you're in good hands with the folks on this forum. From what I've seen people saying so far, it sounds like you're on the right track.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Julie is correct on what she has stated above. I know that even a really GOOD breeder can get a dog with HD, whether a show puppy or just a family pet. Some people really know what is behind a pedigree as far as HD or ED. Some dogs never show any signs of having either and never limp a day in their lives. If your dog does happen to be diagnosed with HD, just make sure he/she is active and really strengthen that rear end. 

Even the best of best can get a dog that is diagnosed with HD and it can happen to even the most careful of breeders.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Well, it's all good to say that a genetic component must be there, but no one really knows for sure. We all believe there is a genetic component, but none has ever been identified; it just seems to be what makes the most sense given the evidence. But we don't know if it's really there or how it actually works.

Just me, perhaps, but I think it is interesting to note that there was almost no HD in Golden Retrievers before the advent of commercial dog food in the depression and WWII years. Prior to that, it was almost unheard of in the breed. Undiagnosed maybe? No one knows. But the rate of HD appearance skyrocketed in the late 40s and early 50s, and seemed to reach a high in the 80s, which tracks the use of commercial dog food. Now, we have no more evidence for that than we do a genetic component, but it's an interesting correlation. (Correlation does not necessarily mean causation, though.) It's also noteworthy that dogs raised on better quality food seem to have a lower rate of HD, though that too is hard to say for sure because there have been no studies done on that.

I think Julie is probably right about a combination of some sort of genetic predisposition combined with some sort of environmental trigger being the most likely cause. But we still don't really know. What's taken as conventional wisdom is just that; it's not science.

The fact that we don't seem to be able to breed it out altogether implies a genetic factor. That makes sense. It may be that whatever set of genes makes a Golden a Golden also gives some level of predisposition for HD. Otherwise, you'd think we'd have been able to breed it virtually out, by now. So, my own guess is that _all_ Golden Retrievers, no matter how carefully bred, have some predisposition for HD, because my own belief is that HD is linked to the essence of what makes a Golden Retriever. But again, that's just my belief. The truth is that we all have beliefs, but no one really knows for sure. Yet.

Edited to add: Oops. Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I just got carried away.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

You also have to incorporate of how much inbreeding was done several years ago. That probably multiplied the risk factors. I know this isn't a proven fact, but it could be a theory, in general.


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## sdhgolden (Aug 13, 2012)

Thanks guys but I was really more interested in people's experiences with these breeders and/or their dogs. 


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

sdhgolden said:


> Thanks guys but I was really more interested in people's experiences with these breeders and/or their dogs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


I think the problem here is that you went and found 2 breeders that are (presumably, based on what others have said... I still haven't had a chance to pull up their websites) doing it right. When we don't have lots of research to do and misleading rhetoric to sort out we get... well... sidetracked.  Sorry about the derail there. My main point (which was hopefully useful in some way) was to not let a single story (or a few) automatically dissuade you from a breeder. Unfortunately, there's no way to breed a 100% guaranteed completely healthy litter -- or series of litters over a lifetime. Look for a breeder who is doing everything that they can to give the best odds possible and who is open and honest about the fact that despite all of that they are not perfect. Good luck!

Julie, Jersey and Oz

PS~ Dana Runs: I think the discussion on hip dysplasia would make a great thread! I'd love to compare sources because I'm always looking for more info. But not this week. I'm absolutely slammed at work and should either be sleeping or doing paperwork right now... and you can see how well that's working out, lol. I'll make a note to start one up this weekend when I'll hopefully have a moment or 2 to breathe.


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky (Feb 22, 2011)

I have personally met both the women that own these kennels ~ both are very respected in the golden retriever breeding/showing circles. It may come down to you deciding who you get-on with best. What style of dog you prefer. And what they have available. If the breeding were right for me, I wouldn't hesitate to get a dog from Scion or Amica. (regardless...I ALWAYS check clearances on each and every breeding and on 5 generations back: K9data.com)


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## furry and four paws (May 10, 2012)

I have a Scion pup, who will be 2 this March. I've had a great relationship with Pat. Maddie is a great dog I couldn't ask for a better golden. As I've stated here before Maddie passed her therapy dog test right at a year, has her CGC, and is working in Rally. I also train with a 3 year old male Scion pup that is also wonderful and doing well in obedience. Both dogs are drop dead gorgeous (though I might be a tad bias 

As for Amica, I've seen her dogs at shows and never heard anything negative at all about her. Both these ladies are well respected breeders. Last years BISS at national was a Scion pup.

Both these ladies are in the Austin Texas area and are active in the Austin breed club. You couldn't go wrong with either breeder.

As for HD, I was actively involved with GSD's for thirty years. Your can do everything right and it will pop up for time to time. Anyone who says otherwise is lying


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

DanaRuns said:


> Well, it's all good to say that a genetic component must be there, but no one really knows for sure. We all believe there is a genetic component, but none has ever been identified; it just seems to be what makes the most sense given the evidence. But we don't know if it's really there or how it actually works.


You're right that we don't know what gene or what set of genes govern the formation of the hip socket and the ball joint, but if you see clear heritability of a trait, it's has to be genetic or epigenetic. You don't have to specifically isolate the gene or genes in order to have conclusive evidence that something is heritable.



DanaRuns said:


> It's also noteworthy that dogs raised on better quality food seem to have a lower rate of HD, though that too is hard to say for sure because there have been no studies done on that.


If there's been no study, how do you arrive at the conclusion that there seems to be a relationship between food and the rate of HD? There's some evidence of the relationship between the expression of HD and weight, and there's been some evidence that calcium, phosphorus, and excess calories during growth spurts can affect bone formation, that's not really about "quality food," which you seem to define in terms of common kibbles vs. boutique kibbles and alternative diets.

There was low incidence of HD before 1950 because people shot lame dogs instead of getting x-rays.



DanaRuns said:


> I think Julie is probably right about a combination of some sort of genetic predisposition combined with some sort of environmental trigger being the most likely cause. But we still don't really know. What's taken as conventional wisdom is just that; it's not science.


But it is science. OFA has demonstrated, very conclusively, that HD and ED are heritable by examining the rates of the disease based on the status of the parents. Breeding clear dogs cuts the risk by about half. What other explanation could there be aside from heritability? 

Sorry to hijack, OP, but it's actually pretty relevant. The heritability of HD (and ED and SAS and PU) will highly affect your search for a litter, because you will only want to go with litters that have a rock-solid clearance history on hips, elbows, hearts, and eyes. Even if the breeders get positive comments on GRF and elsewhere, you still need to examine individual litters for their clearance history before you commit to a litter. The most reputable breeders will invite this level of scrutiny and recognize it as a quality of someone who's done their research.


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## ripvw (May 24, 2013)

I do own a 2 1/2 year old golden from Amica as a pet. The breeder, Mia, is wonderful. She doesn't breed just to sell puppies, but mostly for show dogs and to improve the breed. She is very selective about where her puppies go. I found her to be extremely knowledgeable and very strict about her breeding protocol. Our Amica golden has been very healthy so far, no problems at all. She is very smart and extremely affectionate. When our older dog dies, we will definintely go back to Amica for another golden. I highly recommend Amica.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Scion Goldens has gorgeous dogs- I would love to have one someday.


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