# meal vs by-product meal



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

RichsRetriever said:


> Let's say we're comparing chicken meal vs chicken by-product meal. Why are so many people against by-product meals? I understand if it's not a named by-product meal but if it's named why are people so against it like it's the worst thing ever to feed a dog?
> 
> Raw feeders feed by-products such as: necks, feet, beaks, liver, intestine, hearts etc, so why is it such a bad thing in kibble form? I've seen several dog food manufacturers say their kibble doesn't contain any by-product as a selling point so I was just curious why a by-product meal is considered by many to be so bad.


It's all about the marketing and perception. Those that think of their dogs as little people in fur coats have a very difficult time feeding their dogs something they wouldn't eat themselves. They find the thought of eating chicken innards themselves revolting, so they transfer that emotional response to feeding their dogs. 

Then you have reality. If a dog got hold of a whole chicken, the first thing it's going to consume is the heart, liver and entrails, i.e. the by-products as they are the most nutrient dense portions of the chicken.


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

Swampcollie said:


> It's all about the marketing and perception. Those that think of their dogs as little people in fur coats have a very difficult time feeding their dogs something they wouldn't eat themselves. They find the thought of eating chicken innards themselves revolting, so they transfer that emotional response to feeding their dogs.
> 
> Then you have reality. If a dog got hold of a whole chicken, the first thing it's going to consume is the heart, liver and entrails, i.e. the by-products as they are the most nutrient dense portions of the chicken.


I agree w/ you 100%. 

I googled chicken meal vs chicken by-product meal and I found this very interesting PDF w/ was #2 on google:*www.hilarywatson.com/chicken.pdf* From what I've read there's no signification difference between a poultry meal vs a poultry by-product meal, and sometimes poultry by-product meals are lower in ash.

I found the PDF above as a footnote on dogfoodadvisors site comparing meal vs bi-product meal:*The Truth About Animal By-Products in Dog Food*. He even says, _"in the case of *rendered* ingredients, the digestibility, biological value and amino acid content of both poultry and poultry by-product meals are *nearly identical."*_

I don't know why I started this thread. : I guess I found it interesting because when I was researching kibble a lot of folks made it seem that by-product meals were the worst ingredient when compared to meals. Not to start a debate but I've noticed in almost every Pro-Plan thread people use that as a huge negative because they use poultry by-product meals in a lot of their formulas. I guess it's not so bad after all.....


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## Bumpers (Jun 21, 2013)

it is purely emotional...and blatantly unfair to the chicken industry...

most people are not aware that chicken is the only protein that has this bifurcated definition of "chicken meal" vs "chicken by product meal"..."fish meal" "lamb meal" "beef meal", etc have very accommodative definitions.

the argument that is made by the overprotective pet owners is "well you don't know what the dog is eating because the name is generic" well....can anyone name a part of a chicken that is not good for a dog? Feathers maybe but feathers are not in "chicken by product meal"

Likewise, have you heard people say "poultry meal" and "poultry by product meal" is bad because it could be anything. Really? Let's take a guess what these could be. The only poultry that is raised commercially in the US is chicken and turkey and to a much lesser extent duck. So maybe it is a mixture of chicken and turkey???? Make sense right.

Royal Canin is in the process of converting all its food to chicken by product meal because technically it is more nutritious on average and more palatable.

Because people are so naïve about this, all that good chicken by product goes into hog and fish food. Who ever would believe that because of nonsense on the internet, hogs and Koi would eat better than our dogs.

people here consider chicken feet "by-products" but in many countries chicken feet is a home cooked meal.

dogs eat poo..rabbit poo..deer poo...horse poo..cow poo..fox poo..cat poo..goat poo, so I fail to see any reason why chicken skin, chicken feet and chicken organs are anything but an excellent source of protein

this issue is very much like foods with corn gluten, which is totally inaccurate because corn is gluten free. people see nothing wrong with spending $72 a bag on Fromm which is loaded with peas and various forms of pea protein, but the image is a steaming bowl of buttered sweet peas on the dinner table. Factory made Pea Protein sounds so much better than Corn Gluten but the reality is that it is much less healthy than Corn Gluten because Pea Protein is used as a complete amino substitute for meat protein, while corn gluten is not. If you showed a person that just bought a bag of that Fromm what Pea Protein really is they might faint.


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

Bumpers said:


> it is purely emotional...and blatantly unfair to the chicken industry...
> 
> most people are not aware that chicken is the only protein that has this bifurcated definition of "chicken meal" vs "chicken by product meal"..."fish meal" "lamb meal" "beef meal", etc have very accommodative definitions.
> 
> ...



I agree w/ a lot of what you've said.

I've noticed how some people are so against kibbles that use corn but will turn around and feed a kibble that uses pea, pea protein & pea flour mixed with potatoes and potato protein. 

And yes pea *protein *sounds much better than corn *gluten*. From what I've read pea protein is the same as corn gluten in a sense that that's what's left over (pea protein / corn gluten) after you remove the starchy part. So there's definitely a lot of word play going on when it comes to kibble.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Bumpers said:


> ... Royal Canin is in the process of converting all its food to chicken by product meal because technically it is more nutritious on average and more palatable...
> 
> Royal Canin was purchased in 2001 by Mars (Pedrigree, Nutro, Greenies, Whiskas, etc). The RC formula changes to by-products have nothing to do with some new science or saving the world's growing population from hunger (as they claim), it's all about saving $$$


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## sharlin (Feb 26, 2007)

I don't use a corn based kibble for two reasons...

1. The Pack seems to have more adverse skin reaction to it.
2. A vast (if not all) corn that is used in kibble is GMO.
In fact I am switching over to a new kibble that is certified GMO free.

With chicken meal or by-product meal I believe that the main reason I am reluctant to use either is because of outsourcing problems getting the meal from China. I personally don't want to use any meal product..lamb, beef, fish, etc..that has been sourced from China. 

I don't use any chicken based kibble just as a personal preference. But if I did those would be my concerns.


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

Not to be rude but I'd like to keep this thread about meal vs by-product meal rather than corn. I've seen threads go way off course once corn is mentioned after a few times in a food / kibble thread.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

deleting, not thread related.


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## sharlin (Feb 26, 2007)

RichsRetriever said:


> I agree w/ a lot of what you've said.
> 
> I've noticed how some people are so against kibbles that use corn but will turn around and feed a kibble that uses pea, pea protein & pea flour mixed with potatoes and potato protein.
> 
> And yes pea *protein *sounds much better than corn *gluten*. From what I've read pea protein is the same as corn gluten in a sense that that's what's left over (pea protein / corn gluten) after you remove the starchy part. So there's definitely a lot of word play going on when it comes to kibble.


Sorry - didn't know I was the one that got it off topic. 
And yes - still concerned about chicken meal & by product being sourced from overseas.


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

sharlin said:


> Sorry - didn't know I was the one that got it off topic.
> And yes - still concerned about chicken meal & by product being sourced from overseas.


You weren't the one, I got side tracked talking about corn and peas yesterday so it was really my fault. : I just wanted to make it about meal vs by-product meal. I know corn is a hot topic too.

And FYI I was responding to a comment.


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## Reese9 (Jan 11, 2012)

I will leave it up to the dog food advisor on this one:

Meat by-products can contain…
Road kill
Dead zoo animals
Dead on arrival poultry
Diseased and dying livestock
*Euthanized* pets from animal shelters
Because you can never know the source of the meat used to make generic by-product meals, purchase of pet food products containing them should be avoided. 

The Truth About Animal By-Products in Dog Food


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

Reese9 said:


> Meat by-products can contain…
> Road kill
> Dead zoo animals
> Dead on arrival poultry
> ...


It's pretty sad that the U.S. doesn't have any petfood regulations like the E.U. does. The E.U. states that all ingredients used for the manufacture of pet foods have to be "fit for human consumption" and that animal by-products used in the production of feeds and pet foods be derived from the carcasses of animals declared "fit for human consumption.

Glad the kibble I feed uses a named by-product meal.


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## Bumpers (Jun 21, 2013)

sharlin said:


> Sorry - didn't know I was the one that got it off topic.
> And yes - still concerned about chicken meal & by product being sourced from overseas.


Everywhere or just China?

You are afraid of chicken products coming from the EU countries or Japan? 

Or meat ingredients coming from Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Australia or New Zealand?

I think you will find all these countries have much higher standards when it comes to raising animals and the grades of product used for pet foods.


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## Bumpers (Jun 21, 2013)

Reese9 said:


> I will leave it up to the dog food advisor on this one:
> 
> Meat by-products can contain…
> Road kill
> ...


This is not entirely true. The laws here require this type of labeling. "Poultry Meal" or "Poultry By-Product Meal" or "Meat Meal" are used only because they are a mix of multiple species, not because anyone is trying to hide anything. Is there any type of Poultry you don't think is acceptable? Chicken, Turkey or Duck? You will find that Poultry is just chicken and turkey because those birds are raised commercially on a large scale. Meat Meal is always beef and pork.

Did you know that "Lamb Meal", "Beef Meal" and all the other mammal meals can be virtually any part of the animal? Only Chicken has a by-product definition.


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

Bumpers said:


> Everywhere or just China?
> 
> You are afraid of chicken products coming from the EU countries or Japan?
> 
> ...


I emailed ProPlan and asked if their by-product meal was sourced from China or the U.S. Their reply is below in quotes. They never answered my question? Does anyone know where they source their meal from? I sent them another email tonight asking again.

"Thank you for contacting Nestlé Purina PetCare Company.

We appreciate your interest in our products. Please know that we have manufacturing plants across the United States; therefore we receive our ingredients from suppliers in areas close to the plants. These suppliers are carefully selected by Nestlé Purina PetCare Company which provides detailed ingredient specifications to those suppliers to help ensure the integrity of each ingredient we purchase. 

Every supplier of ingredients for Purina pet food must meet stringent standards for ingredient specification, product safety, sanitation and good manufacturing practices. All ingredients are inspected before being used in our products. 

While the vast majority of our ingredients are sourced from the United States, we do source a limited amount of ingredients from China. These ingredients, primarily important nutritional supplements that are not commonly available in the USA or other countries in the quantities we need, are used in most of our pet foods. 

Again, thank you for contacting Nestlé Purina PetCare Company."


I've also sent them 3 emails since last week asking about their ash content but they keep replying with a generic email saying they are researching my question and will get back to me shortly.



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Ugh, the lack of transparency is alarming in this industry.


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## Bumpers (Jun 21, 2013)

RichsRetriever said:


> I emailed ProPlan and asked if their by-product meal was sourced from China or the U.S. Their reply is below in quotes. They never answered my question? Does anyone know where they source their meal from? I sent them another email tonight asking again.
> 
> "Thank you for contacting Nestlé Purina PetCare Company.
> 
> ...


They answered your question about the by-product meal. It think it is clear.

As for the Ash, I wouldn't worry. With calcium of .90% and phosphorus of .70% it couldn't be over 6%, probably closer to 5.5%.


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

Bumpers said:


> They answered your question about the by-product meal. It think it is clear.


I don't think that's a clear answer at all. I've come to realize that there is a lot of vague wording & word play when it comes to pet foods, so if I ask a specific question I expect a direct answer. My question was about their by-product meal NOT about other ingredients or supplements. A better answer would've been this:

*Please know that we have manufacturing plants across the United States; therefore we receive our by-product meals from suppliers in areas close to the plants. *

Even then it's still vague though.  I'm not saying Purina is but here's where word play _could _come into play. Receiving ingredients from suppliers in areas close to their manufacturing plants in the U.S. does not necessarily mean those ingredients originated in the U.S. Their "suppliers" could've sourced and imported those ingredients form China. That's why I wanted to know where their by-product meal came from...the U.S. or China.

Like Penny & Maggie's Mom said, the lack of transparency is alarming in this industry.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Please keep in mind the type of person you are encountering when you Email a large company. They are most likely an individual that just finished high school, and they have been given a bunch of generic form letters for use in responding to questions. 

You won't get specific responses unless you can directly contact the design engineers who are directly producing a specific product. They can give you the details about the specific product you asked about. However, remember that if you ask a generic question, expect a generic answer. 

Nestle Purina makes over 200 different products. Those products are produced in various facilities around the world, not just North America or the United States. Now take for example Chicken By-Product meal. The source for that which is used in producing Pro Plan is different from that which is used in producing Purina One. While the ingredient panels on the bag look somewhat similar the products are not the same, because the ingredient sources are not the same.


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

Swampcollie said:


> Please keep in mind the type of person you are encountering when you Email a large company. They are most likely an individual that just finished high school, and they have been given a bunch of generic form letters for use in responding to questions.
> 
> You won't get specific responses unless you can directly contact the design engineers who are directly producing a specific product. They can give you the details about the specific product you asked about.


I don't see why Purina would be any different than Natura? I consider both to be large companies and Natura has many different brands under the Natura umbrella just like Purina does yet Natura answers my questions.

I asked Natura specific questions regrading California Natural, more specifically about their puppy lamb and rice formula. They responded back with direct answers to all 3 of my questions by 3 different product advisors. 



Swampcollie said:


> However, remember that if you ask a generic question, expect a generic answer.


I agree with you on that but I asked them a specific question regarding by-product meals in Pro-Plan, more specifically in their Sport 28/18 formula since I started feeding it this past weekend yet they gave me a generic answer about Purina as a whole? 

I would think that where they source their meats, meals, by-products meals and corn have to be some of the most asked questions. It's not like I asked them where they source their dried egg products from. :

If they didn't know the answer they should've responded back the same way they did when I asked them about their ash content in their Sport 28/18 formula:*"We appreciate the opportunity to address your inquiry. We are currently researching your request and will be back in contact with you shortly."

*


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## Bumpers (Jun 21, 2013)

I find it amazing that people go to Chinese, Indian and Mexican restaurants all the time where imported food products are used. In fact, behind Italian food, Mexican and Chinese food are the most popular ethnic foods in the USA. 

But for heaven's sake, my little fur baby can't eat anything from China, Mexico or India!!!!


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

Bumpers said:


> I find it amazing that people go to Chinese, Indian and Mexican restaurants all the time where imported food products are used. In fact, behind Italian food, Mexican and Chinese food are the most popular ethnic foods in the USA.
> 
> But for heaven's sake, my little fur baby can't eat anything from China, Mexico or India!!!!


I don't mind buying cheap stuff made in China but when it comes to food I'd rather source from the U.S. I hardly ever eat out so I don't care about that but I DO feed my dog the same kibble everyday so if it has meat from China I'd rather not feed it to him. Heck I'd rather not feed kibble period because even the AAFCO cannot give a yes or no asnwer when people ask are petfood manufacturers allowed to use dead pets in their food.

Anyhoooo back to Pro-Plan. They sent me back the same generic response above regarding their by-product meals so it looks like I'm not going to get a straight forward answer but they did respond back to my question regarding their ash percentage.....




Bumpers said:


> As for the Ash, I wouldn't worry. With calcium of .90% and phosphorus of .70% it couldn't be over 6%, probably closer to 5.5%.



Just an FYI it's over 6%._*

"We appreciate your patience while we researched your query. Please know that there is 7.4% ash in our Purina® Pro Plan® brand Dog Food – Sport – Advanced 28/18 Formula – All Life Stages Dog Food."*_


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Bumpers said:


> I find it amazing that people go to Chinese, Indian and Mexican restaurants all the time where imported food products are used. In fact, behind Italian food, Mexican and Chinese food are the most popular ethnic foods in the USA.
> 
> But for heaven's sake, my little fur baby can't eat anything from China, Mexico or India!!!!


Be it human food or pet food, consumers should have the right to know what they are spending their $ on.


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## Bumpers (Jun 21, 2013)

RichsRetriever said:


> I don't mind buying cheap stuff made in China but when it comes to food I'd rather source from the U.S. I hardly ever eat out so I don't care about that but I DO feed my dog the same kibble everyday so if it has meat from China I'd rather not feed it to him. Heck I'd rather not feed kibble period because even the AAFCO cannot give a yes or no asnwer when people ask are petfood manufacturers allowed to use dead pets in their food.
> 
> Anyhoooo back to Pro-Plan. They sent me back the same generic response above regarding their by-product meals so it looks like I'm not going to get a straight forward answer but they did respond back to my question regarding their ash percentage.....
> 
> ...


That is probably Dry Matter. In any event, the phosphorous is the component of ash you want to look out for, and on an "as fed" basis it is very low.


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

Bumpers said:


> That is probably Dry Matter.


No it's "_as fed_"...I received this today from Purina:
_
"We appreciate your reply. To further clarify, the ash content provided is an as-fed basis.
__
__Again, thank you for contacting Nestlé Purina PetCare Company."
_​


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Bumpers said:


> I find it amazing that people go to Chinese, Indian and Mexican restaurants all the time where imported food products are used. In fact, behind Italian food, Mexican and Chinese food are the most popular ethnic foods in the USA.
> 
> But for heaven's sake, my little fur baby can't eat anything from China, Mexico or India!!!!


Well China made Purina dog treats killed my Zoey


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

MikaTallulah said:


> Well China made Purina dog treats killed my Zoey


Sorry to hear that.  

Was it those chicken jerky treats I read about or something else?


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

RichsRetriever said:


> Sorry to hear that.
> 
> Was it those chicken jerky treats I read about or something else?


Yup it was. She passed from Renal Failure. Thank God I never gave them to the other dogs!


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

MikaTallulah said:


> Yup it was. She passed from Renal Failure. Thank God I never gave them to the other dogs!


Did Purina ever admit to it?


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## MintChip (Feb 26, 2021)

CrazyZane said:


> Let's say we're comparing chicken meal vs chicken by-product meal. Why are so many people against by-product meals? I understand if it's not a named by-product meal but if it's named why are people so against it like it's the worst thing ever to feed a dog?
> 
> Raw feeders feed by-products such as: necks, feet, beaks, liver, intestine, hearts etc, so why is it such a bad thing in kibble form? I've seen several dog food manufacturers say their kibble doesn't contain any by-product as a selling point so I was just curious why a by-product meal is considered by many to be so bad.


Resurrecting an old post. I am curious as to why by-product meals are considered low end. I am doing an elimination food trial and discovered my pup may be intolerant to chicken meal which is a standard in dog food. He seems to be doing ok with poultry-by product meal. He even seemed to like his food more. I switched formulas (within brand) and only a day later - he had solid poop! Time will tell though. Chicken Meal does sound better to our human ears.


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## 215004 (Apr 21, 2021)

For what its worth , Dog food has been scrutinized for years. Since their not FDA regulated. A 20/20 news showed a undercover employee with hidden camera showing animal carcasses laid out in rows to include all the flies and had been there for days. From there they are all thrown in a large vat and mixed with a host of who knows what, made into little Nibblets with dye _and sold as a “ brand name dog food” . Sounds bad but true! Unfortunately I lost 2 healthy dogs within 3 days from this company. 1 st was a healthy 28# Boston Terrier who went from 28# down to 12# in 3 weeks trying everything to save her life. 7000.00 in vet bills on her. Came home 3 days later to find my Male GR spread out like a deer on ice, diapheretic and picked him up calling the vet on the way in to have help and the back door open. He instantly started having seizures on the X-ray table and then went into cardiac arrest. ( ever have to do CPR on your own dog? ) My vet at the time found it very unusual to lose 2 dogs so closely so he had tissue samples sent to a University up north for diagnostic testing. Guess who is the major contributor to this university? Exactly! The same company who makes the food! Unusual for a GR who had just had his yearly exam. Ladies and gentlemen, research what your feeding your furry family members!.....David_


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

The objection to by-products and by-product meal is not so much the body parts it’s made from but how those body parts are handled. The prime flesh of animals are generally kept clean and cold on the way to the manufacturer. However, there are reports of the “by-products” (especially if they were body parts rejected from the human food chain, either due to quality issues or lack of demand) being swept up from the slaughterhouse floor, stored in large, unrefridgerated vats for extended periods, and then shipped long distances (again, unrefrigerated) before arriving at the rendering plant.





__





Pet Food (What You Need to Know) for Your Pet's Sake | PetMD


Following is a series of posts that will help educate pet owners about reading labels and choosing foods they can trust for their pets. It is easy to be fooled by marketing gimmicks and misleading label claims … pets don't question what they eat … so we must.



www.petmd.com





As with most things, you can take these reports with a grain of salt, and it’s entirely possible that some manufacturers handle their by products as carefully as they do their “meat.” I’ve seen as many reports saying by-product meal is fine, The problem is that it is notoriously hard to determine what a given manufacturer’s process is unless they can legally claim that all their ingredients are “human grade.”


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