# Heart murmur...



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Innocent puppy murmurs are very common and the puppy grows out of them by 4 months of age, often sooner. It may not be anything but the only puppy murmurs I have had experience with are generally a grade 1 and fade with age. They are caused by the rapid and often uneven growth of a young pup. 

It concerns me that it is getting stronger but it still may only be a puppy murmur. Have you contacted the breeder? I know that in situations like this, I would generally make the appointment and take the puppy in (along with the owners).

You might consider a second opinion, just to make sure. Your vet really should be able to tell you the grade and where the mumur is.

As long as it is not life-threatening, you may want to wait a few more weeks to see what happens with it. If it is a puppy murmur, it should be gone by 16 weeks.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Here's some positive outlook for you  Ginger grew out of hers, I hope Mia does too 

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=46790


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I know a dog that had a grade 1 heart murmer as a puppy and she grew out of it. Did they say what grade each time? Hopefully you find out more information from the cardiologist. Here is a page with lots of resources: http://www.thensome.com/heartmurmurs.htm


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

I've been there and the news is devastating. The trip to the cardiologist is extemely stressful, but then you know for sure what you are dealing with. There are many causes for heart murmurs. Our Tinkerbell was diagnosed at 9 weeks and was confirmed by an echcardiogram by a cardiologist 6 months later. Tinkerbell's murmur is a 4.5-5 on a sclae of 1-6 and is due to SubAortic Stenosis (SAS). Nothing you read on that gives much hope.

We had vets and even cardiologist offer to put our 6 month old puppy down for us to save us the heartache later. It doesn't get much worse than that. We decided to let her live as fulla life as possible. the cardiologist put her on heart meds and gave us a Rx good for 5 months. She couldn't believe we called and asked for more refills. Everything we read and were told says Tinkerbell should not have lived to be a year old. 

*But I am extremely happy to say that she turned 2 last June and is doing incredibly well.* Several people here on the forum have met her and can tell you they would never had known if they hadn't read about her heart condition here.

As difficult as it may seem do not let the news ruin the joy of your new puppy. There is always hope as my Tinkerbell proves. Good food, an understanding vet, heart meds and tons of love have kept Tinkerbell with us for this long and each day we have her increases her chance of having a long life.


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## shortcake23 (Aug 15, 2008)

I don't know how much I trust this vet... there are some things that he's said that made me doubt his knowledge of the breed... 

We are going for a 2nd opinion at the vet that I go to with my kitties, and we have an appointment at the cardiologist on Tuesday at 10am for the ultrasound and to find out more about it.

We called the breeder the day after we got Mia when we first heard about the heart murmur and she was very surprised since her vet didn't hear it. I heard that it's possible that it can be missed when they are very young...?

We called her again today to let her know and she wants more information about it (grade, etc.) when we get it...


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on what grade your regular vet puts on it. Unless the vet has a lot of experience dealing with heart murmurs they may be wrong. They should have an idea of which side it is coming from, but again if they don't have a lot of experience dealing with it they may not want to say too much. We did also get a second opinion and I liked that vet do much we switched right then.

We had Tinkerbell in to the vet every 2 weeks for just a quick heart check, so that they could monitor it and see if there was any change. Hers has remained very constant. Hers you can even feel and at times you can even see it like when she is in a deep sleep.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

shortcake23 said:


> I don't know how much I trust this vet... there are some things that he's said that made me doubt his knowledge of the breed...
> 
> We are going for a 2nd opinion at the vet that I go to with my kitties, and we have an appointment at the cardiologist on Tuesday at 10am for the ultrasound and to find out more about it.
> 
> ...



It is very common to miss a heart murmur at the initial vet check. Good luck at the cardiologist and feel free to contact me at any time.

And if you are not sure about this vet, switch. You are very liekly goign to be seeing them a lot. It needs to be someone you trust and can relate to.


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## Ruby'smom (Feb 4, 2008)

the first time we took Ruby to the vet nothing was mentioned about a heart murmur
the second time we took her it was a diferent vet and they said she had a definate heart murmur and she had it for a while after that we were terrified of something happening to our baby 
then one day we took her to the vets about something completely diferent and we asked them to check her heart and the murmur had gone 
so dont give up hope and if it does turn out she has a long term heart problem there is always someone here to talk to
by the way Mia is gorgeous :smooch:


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

Asia had one at her second puppy check after we got her and it was gone a month later never to return. Lots of pups have innocent murmers and I hope this is the case for Mia.


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## shortcake23 (Aug 15, 2008)

Thank you all for your kind words.
I'll let you all know what the cardiologist says after our Tuesday morning appointment.

Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be slowing Mia down, so I take that as a good sign... 

Heart murmurs aren't *painful *for them, are they?


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Doesn't Maggie's Mom's Cruiser have a heart murmur?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Love, kisses, and extra treats to Mia. I so hope she will grow out of it. The tiny puppy who fits in two hands just awakens every protective instinct, and it's so hard to come to terms with and adjust to problems. But it's amazing how, after the shock of the initial diagnosis, some adjusting does take place. I hope your breeder stands by your side supportively.


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## ggdenny (Nov 2, 2008)

Shortcake, I have just a few words of wisdom from experience. When Simon was a puppy his vet heard a murmur during his first visit to the vet. His vet was at the Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital at the University of Wisconsin here in Madison. A board certified veterinary cardiologist also heard the murmur upon exam, but in his words "we won't worry about grading until Simon is older, and by that time it may close on its own." My wife and I were freaked out, devastated and afraid.

Long story short: Simon grew out of his murmur and we spent a few months of needless worrying. I know I can't tell you not to worry, but please, please don't let it get the best of you. Enjoy Mia's puppy days and nature will take its course. Even if she has an ongoing murmur there are medical ways to manage.

Mia's such a darling, sweet puppy and I just know she'll be fine. Keep us posted.


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## magiclover (Apr 22, 2008)

I don't have any experience with murmurs but I will send my best prayers that Mia outgrows this and lives a long and healthy life!


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

Short answer to whether its painful or not: no.

Sydney has a heart murmur that she didn't grow out of. Hers is a grade 1/2. I had the doppler ultrasound done (by a radiologist though, not a cardiologist) and he really couldn't give me any answers. She didn't appear to have SAS (which is the worry with goldens) and it was caused by aeortic inefficiencies. My point is, not all heart murmurs are a "problem" and not all are genetic. I know you can go online and google heart murmurs and you will be bombarded with information about SAS and next thing you know, you're thinking your puppy is on deaths door. (trust me, dont do that). Every murmur is different and can be caused by a million different things. 

Another note about regular vets and heart murmurs: When I took Sydney in to be spayed (I chose to spay her shortly after), one of the vets was listening for a murmur and I told them she had one. The vet kept insisting that she did NOT have a murmur (at this point I had paid a lot of money for proof of this supposed heart murmur), so I told her again, that yes she did have one. She insisted she couldn't hear it. I swear sometimes they dont know what they're listening for... not to say that Sydney's isn't faint enough that a good DVM could miss it, but I wouldn't worry too much about what they hear or dont hear. Good luck, BJ


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Debles said:


> Doesn't Maggie's Mom's Cruiser have a heart murmur?


Yes Cruiser does.... I agree Unless the vet has a lot of experience dealing with heart murmurs they may be wrong. They should have an idea of which side it is coming from, but again if they don't have a lot of experience dealing with it they may not want to say too much. Our vet has been right on the money with every dog /pup brought in with the murmurs. 

Cruiser has a grade 3/6 left basilar systolic murmur,has had it since 3 months. The echocardiograph was done at 6 months old and the findings included mild subaortic stenosis(sas) and regurgitation at the aortic valve. His pressure gradients across the stenosis was less than 35mm which is very mild. His prognosis for a happy normal life is good. He will be 2 in March and weights 85 pounds, he is to go back for another echo at 2 years of age..I was told that after the age of 2 the chances of it getting worse is very slim at a grade 3 . He is on no meds and he lives a normal happy life with my other goldens.The specialist said there is no limits on what he can and cant do.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

My vet told me that it's very hard to grade heart murmurs, and that it can sound totally different on any given day so I wouldn't put too much worry in "it's getting worse". Just means your vet cleaned his ears the night before 
Good luck at the cardiologist. Let us know how it goes!


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## shortcake23 (Aug 15, 2008)

I'll try not to worry too much about it until we know for sure and the seriousness... Your posts make me feel better about things. 

One thing that I'm wondering, is when my fiancé called the vet after we got home to ask what grade it was, they said 3 on 4... which doesn't make much sense to us... I thought the scale was out of 6?
But yeah, we'll see what the cardiologist says.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

The scale is to 6. 3 and under they usually dont go on meds, depending on what kind of murmur. anything 4-5 they do, if they dont out grow it. I have heard that with a 6 they dont live long lives.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

shortcake23 said:


> I'll try not to worry too much about it until we know for sure and the seriousness... Your posts make me feel better about things.
> 
> One thing that I'm wondering, is when my fiancé called the vet after we got home to ask what grade it was, they said 3 on 4... which doesn't make much sense to us... I thought the scale was out of 6?
> But yeah, we'll see what the cardiologist says.


Maybe he meant to say the murmur was a 3 or 4.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I recently had a real pretty intact male golden here for boarding, 5 years old. The people brought him because their female golden is in heat, and they said she's too young to breed so they wanted him out of the house.
So in the course of conversation, they said they plan to breed them when she's old enough.
Then they hand me the male's medicines....BIG time heart drugs. Huge doses of both enalapril and furosimide. At 5 years old.
I lectured them until I was blue in the face about not breeding the dog. I don't think it did any good. 
Sigh.
Some things just suck.
I hope PointGold reads this, I'd enjoy a post about it!


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

The important thing to remember is that even if you hear bad news, it doesn't mean a death sentence. It may not even alter her lifestyle.

I know Cruiser acts just like the other dogs he lives with. And Tinkerbell whose conditon is much worse and is due to severe SAS also acts very normal. As a pup she was just as wild as many of the stories we heard on here. We were cautioned about excercise and things so we never built up her stamina so she doesn't usually last as long as other goldens her age. But since she is an only dog we don't usually notice it. She's a little more sensitive to extreme temps so when it is really hot or cold she spends more time in the house than out (means I get to also)

And I don't think the murmur hurts her. I've never noticed anything that makes me think that.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

You just need to wait and see what the cardiologist says. They will be able to tell you in more detail whats going on. There are a lot of different factors... is the murmur on the left or right side... the grade of it..etc... I had a foster who had a grade 2 on her right side..basically she had a hole between the valve chambers(hers was worse than Cruisers-his is on the left side) and she went to the vet yesterday and its gone...the hole closed up...They say if its a 3 and below they have a very good chance they will out grow it by the time of 16 weeks and a lot do. Please dont beat yourself up over this.... like Marsha said its not a death sentence. Here is a couple of pictures of Cruiser in action....In the chase pictures, hes chasing Abbie... Cruiser lives his life to the fullest and you wouldnt tell by the way he acts he has a heart murmur....


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## shortcake23 (Aug 15, 2008)

*Heart murmur update*

Mia went to the cardiologist today for her ultrasound. She has been diagnosed with a mild mitral regurgitation (leaky heart valve). He said that the "leakage" is so small that on a scale of 1 to 10, it would be a .1

He also said that the heart murmur grade is between 1 and 3. Reason that he can't say exactly is that sometimes it's louder than others. He said that it goes from 1 to a 3.

The cardiologist said that she didn't need any meds or surgery, and that she can have a normal life. He wants to see her in 2 years if the murmur is still audible to see if anything has changed.

He also told us that he expects her to outgrow the mitral regurgitation...

That makes us feel much better! What a last few days we've had!!! On top of all this stress, Mia also has developed a mild case of UTI (we caught it very early on) and is taking meds for that since Sunday. 

:bowl:


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Thats great.... Mia is still young and theres a great chance she will out grow it.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Great news !!! Congrats to baby Mia.... and to you. What good parents you are.


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## Zoeys mom (Apr 26, 2008)

Glad to hear you had a good appointment.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

That is good news to hear! Hopefully she will end up growing out of it. I am sorry you had to worry so much!!!


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## ggdenny (Nov 2, 2008)

Hooooray!!!! Now post new pictures


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## shortcake23 (Aug 15, 2008)

Will do!


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

*this is such great news. If he does not think she needs meds and want to wait so long to see her, thenhe must think she is going to be fine. Now GET the sweAt off youR brow and get thaT happY smile on your face.*


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

Great news on Mia, so glad everything went ok.


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

It sounds like good news for Mia. I bet you are feeling a whole lot better.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

That is just great news about Mia. Now the breathing can begin. In a couple of months you wont even notice with her running and playing and being the spunky girl she looks like she is.


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## windfair (Jul 19, 2008)

*Happy Day*

I just saw this thread, so sorry that you had to go through all that worry! I'm glad to hear that little Mia will be fine, she is such a cutie.


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## shortcake23 (Aug 15, 2008)

Thank you everyone. Thanks for all the support. You're all so nice!


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

That is wonderful news!

The only thing I would suggest, for the next little bit, and this is simply because they recommend this for humans with this condition, as well is that whenever you suspect an infection of any sort you take her in to the vet. Some people and dogs can be more susceptable to severe infections so they often treat with antibiotics as a preventative. 

Most of us do that anyways, but sometimes we all think well let's give it a day or two. And until you know how high her immunities are it's better safe than sorry.


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