# The case for a well-bred puppy



## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

*CAUTION! SUPER LONG POST AHEAD!*

People always say to buy a well-bred puppy. But other than "they should have the four core clearances," no one ever says what a well-bred puppy is, or why you should buy one. I'm going to tackle that a little bit right here. 

Now, this is not to say that there is anything wrong with poorly bred Goldens. I've had several, and I have two right now. They are my rescues. I've always had rescues along with my well-bred dogs, and if you promise not to tell my other dogs I'll confess that I've always had a really special place in my heart for my rescues. Please don't tell! 

But the advantages of a well-bred Golden are substantial.

It's hard to define what a well-bred Golden is. Definitions are as numerous as breeders. But in general, I'd say that a well-bred Golden is one that is bred to the breed standard, one that was thoughtfully bred with the breeder considering traits to improve and finding a stud who would bring those improvements to the table, and one that has been bred for health and longevity beyond the 4 core clearances. Well-bred does NOT mean that the dog never has any health issues; it just means that it was purposefully bred to avoid, correct, or minimize health issues.

Now I'll tell you a little about my own well-bred dogs, versus my rescues.

My well-bred dogs are robust and sturdy. They are pretty near indestructible, which is a good thing because they are also so confident that they sometimes seem not to have a lot of regard for their own safety. They have thicker bone, proper balance, stronger muscles, and are more athletic than my rescues. They are like Terminator dogs compared to my rescues. And they are amazingly strong. It's really impressive, and I constantly marvel at them, thinking "this is what a sporting dog should be."

The rescues I have all have some sort of personality quirk. One is very soft. The other is just neurotic. LOL. But my well-bred dogs all have rock solid temperaments. They are smart, happy, loyal, enthusiastic, confident without being aggressive, enthusiastic, biddable, easily trained, and did I mention enthusiastic? But my well-bred dogs are not couch potatoes. They are athletes. Still, every minute I'm sitting on the sofa, one or more of them is on me, next to me, or lying on my feet.

My well-bred dogs don't get dirty. They can be covered in mud, and their coats shed it. They don't get wet very easily. They don't have silky open coats, they have thick, tough, closed top coats that repel water and dirt and burrs. They love water and are courageous in water. They are very birdy, and have strong retrieving instincts. And their focus and determination are incredible.

One of my rescues has bilateral hip and elbow dysplasia, and has developed a number of lipomas as she ages. None of my well-bred dogs have ever been dysplastic (though it remains a possibility in any Golden, so maybe I've just been lucky....naw!), and none has ever had a lipoma.

Not one of my well-bred Goldens has ever had a food allergy, skin allergy, or environmental allergy. One was mildly allergic to bees, which was a problem when he decided they were fun to catch. He learned the hard way not to.  All of them have stomachs like steel garbage cans, and none are picky eaters.

I never need to take these guys to the vet. They just never have anything wrong with them. The last time one had something wrong that warranted a visit to the vet, it was cancer and he died two weeks later, literally chasing balls until the day before he died.

And while beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I think my well-bred dogs are much more beautiful than their poorly bred pack mates.

Don't get me wrong. My rescues are adorable. But there's something about the well bred ones. Not a very good photo of them (and so unkempt I'm embarrassed), but guess which dog _isn't_ well-bred.










The well-bred ones just kind of look like what you'd expect a Golden to look like. Here's a 14-month old adolescent.










Wow, sorry about the huge photo and the terrible photo. LOL!

Nothing in this post does justice to just how different it is living with well-bred dogs vs poorly bred dogs. It's night and day, in every conceivable way. And one of the cool things about getting a well-bred Golden is that I know exactly what to expect. I know what they will look like, what their personalities will be like, what it will be like training them and living with them. There are no surprises. The consistency is incredible, whereas with my rescues they have been all over the place in terms of looks, health, temperament, etc.

Another thing is that I know a well-bred puppy will come to me with proper socialization those first few weeks of its life. Full disclosure, though: I haven't bought a puppy in a long time. I breed them. And like most conscientious breeders (I hope), we start training and socializing them from Day 3 of their little lives, including early neurological stimulation, early scent exposure, challenges throughout their first 8 weeks, and crate training, potty training, follow training, and temperament testing. Breeders of poorly bred Goldens don't do any of that stuff.

One more photo, just because. This is of one of my poorly bred Goldens, on a day when she had tremendous fun.










Of course, I'd love to tell you that only my rescues and poorly bred Goldens get into mischief like this, but sadly I cannot. A Golden is a Golden is a Golden. And despite all I've said here about the advantages of a well-bred Golden, we love them all equally.

Okay, last thing! (And if you've read this far you really need to get a hobby.  ) I'm sure I've left out a hundred traits about well-bred versus poorly bred dogs. Please post your experiences, thoughts, disagreements, impressions, hopes, dreams, nightmares, and knowledge below. I'm gonna guess I haven't completely exhausted the things to say on this subject, despite going for the Longest Post Ever award.

I'm done! I hereby set you free!


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Well said, thank you. 

I can't tell you how many of the throw out mamma dogs I've taken in... the ones that have been overbred and not taken care of. It takes 6 to 8 months to get these sweet dogs back to health and breaks my heart that people support these places. Most of them don't live too many years after being retired. Oops.... I got off topic!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I would agree with you 100%. Add in bad teeth, thin ear leather, light eyes, unstable temperaments. And I see all you describe in your rescues (and the ones I have had) in a poorly bred Golden someone pays real money for. It's unfortunate that there are people out there doing such a bad job breeding- but most of them are not even remotely involved in dogs past putting the nearest intact animals together. They don't know what they don't know. 

I even see some claimed to be Goldens that I can clearly see Pyr or Poodle in. Bet you do too.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Money- well bred puppies cost money. 
Oddly to me, they usually in this area cost only a few hundred dollars more- or in the case of the poorly bred 'white goldens' maybe even cost less. In this era of designer this and top of the line that, I do not understand why people bargain hunt or color shop on dogs. There are no bargains in dogs. Only front end money that is quickly followed by mucho upkeep money (mine don't get sick, either, Dana... but I spend a fortune at the vets getting clearances and doing yearly bloodwork and if I see anything, they go to the specialist but my point is this- I don't HAVE to spend to keep them alive and healthy). 
So here- ECGR runs about $3500. Well bred Golden that might also be light colored runs about $2600 on average. CL or newspaper breeders charge about $2200 or more. Why would someone not wait on a well bred dog? 

Gosh (oops... gonna go off topic....) I am so glad I got to spend my day putting most of my 'stuff' back out in my yard!!! The hurricane missed me.

Oh- on your guess which photo---- someone recently was mentioning eye color. Those amber eyes would be a good photo to show that person if we remember who it was.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

I think there is still some element of luck involved. Despite the fact that my current dog's parents (one with a ch title, the other a gch) had all the cores + all the extras, he has a congenital lesion in his neck that causes his paws to drag. He sweeps the tops of his front paws, but does no damage other than keeping the front two nails on each worn down such that I do not have to clip them. He scuffs his back feet in such a way that if he does not wear boots on them when we walk on concrete, he will abrade one of the pads on each foot. This has neither gotten worse, nor better, since we got him - and I can go back a see videos of right after we brought him home and see this sweeping of the front paws, in particular. Obviously, no one can predict a congenital problem like that. He's also long in the loin and elbows out. Those things affect his gait, but we aren't in the show ring and we aren't out for hours in the field. 

My last dog's parents had clearances, none of the extras, but only the sire was titled. The bitch was lovely, though. I never asked why she wasn't shown. The breeder had other dogs that were being shown, however. Never had a single problem with him until he was diagnosed with hemangio and we lost him two weeks later. He had much better structure than my current dog. I could only fault his tail, which was a little high.

Two well bred dogs, two very different dogs. Having said that, the one thing that they have in common is predictable, stable temperaments and no major health issues. Honestly, I don't count the lesion as "major" because it doesn't interfere in his quality of life, nor does it limit what he can or cannot do. He wears his boots on walks and we carry on. The point is simply that one can choose a well bred dog to minimize risk, but it's impossible to control every gene mutation or gene expression. I choose to minimize my risk, love the dog I get, and let him tell me what he wants to do. My last one was the playmate/babysitter. Current one loves to work.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

Rukie is my first well bred puppy and the difference is amazing but hard to put into words (which must be why Dana used so many>). When I took him to my workplace when he was only 9 weeks old he shocked my co-workers by sitting, laying down and shaking on command in front of a circle of 6-8 people. His breeder did lots of good things with her puppies. Like yours, he has never been to the vet for anything but shots and yearly checkups, never had any stomach/gastro issues, never been car sick, no allergies. His temperament is exactly what I had told the breeder we wanted. The small amount more we paid for him was well worth it and probably more than a break even when you factor in no vet bills. I will always choose a well bred puppy in the future although I might also take a rescue at some point because they are loveable too. I won't, however, give money to a breeder who is not working at improving the breed.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

First... Robin - really glad the storm bypassed your area. !

The rest - I've not been "lucky" in the dogs I've had for most of my adult life. I sought them out and chose them. 

My oldest sisters bought my very first big blond sweet showboat when I was barely getting into my teens, and ever since him, I've wanted dogs who looked and acted JUST LIKE HIM. 

I wanted the same heads. 

I wanted the same coloring.

I wanted the same sweet, sensitive, lovable nature - that he had. This was a dog who lived to be almost 13 and he never ever ever growled or raised his lips. The only facial contortions that he did was winging his ears and squinting his eyes while happily singing you the song of his people because he was so happy you were home. 

To me, that was a true golden retriever inside and out.

By carefully weeding out breeders and talking to them about temperament and learning bits and pieces about pedigrees along the way... I've purchased dogs who had that same look, as well as the same sweet temperament. 

My two babies in particular come from a breeder who I remember stopping and watching her puppies at the big local benched show (Cobo) and admiring them + seeing how sweet they were. I'm very happy to have pups from her today who have that same look and temperament. She kept that together over the years through careful breeding. And there are other breeders out there like her who are not big names, but who know their lines very well. With my two babies, I have the bonus of them being spitting images of their dad - the youngest baby especially. 

Anyway - that's what it means going with a good breeder. 

Outside of my own "I want a blond dog, I want him to have a nice but reasonable CORRECT coat, I want him to be sweet tempered, eager to please" universe, there is other things which I've felt around me through interactions with other people.

That's the cheesy gloating that I did over a very successful handler stopping me to give me really positive feedback on my up and coming pup. 

But it's also the other more regular and constant feedback that I get every day.

That's my dogs (including the little puppy!) trying to climb into some kids' boat to go fishing with them. LOLOL. And just seeing how outgoing, fearless, friendly, and happy my dogs were with boats and strangers in them. That's a combination of breeding + what I've done with the dogs to keep them fearless. 

That's days like today when I went to the petstore and had my puppy full body wagging as he burst in to be surrounded by 4-5 teenaged girls who were working at the store. And he kept wagging and licking and preening for them.  Checking out, we had more people coming in or out from the back of the store to come see my puppy, but also the two adults. All three were wiggling and just waxing fat on all the attention.

Leaving the store, we were stopped twice by people in the parking lot, including a young teenaged girl who was laughing and crying over petting her favorite breed in the whole world. I let her hold Glee who immediately went to town licking and snuggling in her arms. 

This whole day - never once did we have people asking what breed they were. Everyone knew they were goldens. And not only that, but they are magnets for people every time. 

I took my dogs (all of them) out to walk downtown with a friend and her dog and even with my Jovi barking (there were geese and ducks and he wanted to eat them all RIGHT NOW), they still had people coming up to not only pet them, but bend down to hug them. And my dogs LOVED every moment of all that. 

Other things include my puppy not only fearlessly dipping his toes into a lake his first time seeing one as an almost 9 week old pup, but charging out there and swimming after his brother and dad and giving me a heartattack as much as I was proud to see how fearless and gutsy he was. 

At home, I have a pup who came home potty trained and relatively crate trained - thanks to the breeder working with the puppies. 

He's 12 weeks old and sleeping through the night. He goes into his crate at night when I tell him it's "time to go to bed". 

My dogs have never once fought or snarked at each other. A very typical evening like tonight is all 3 dogs curled up and sleeping together in the same tiled corner of the room. They eat their meals together not even a foot apart from each other. They chew their bones and take treats together.... <= A good chunk of that is management and care on my part since my family learned from early mistakes with our first couple dogs. But a lot of it is very easy when the dogs are naturally nice and sweet dogs. 

He eats his kibble (PP Focus chicken and rice puppy food)... but I admit to letting him eat some of the adult food (Nutro Ultra or Merrick Backcountry). Won't hurt him. Likewise, he gets fish, chicken, steak, other things that are leftover after supper. Not too much, but he gets a little bit. Little guy has never once had any stool issues or upset stomach or anything. That's something he's gotten from his dad, definitely. 

Probably my biggest frustration is if you love this breed for all the right reasons.... you are not ever once considering breeding dogs who have problems in any area. And you live and breathe the breed - and learn everything you can about it while getting more active in the breed (because you want to be around people who love it as much as you do).

I'm sick to my heart over people getting into the breed just because they want a home business or even on a more minor scale, they want to make a little side cash off the dogs they own. 

I'm even sicker feeling every time I hear about a breeder who is doing cruddy things either on paper or in their breeding choices. It hurts the pups and the pet homes the worst in many of these cases. Breeders rehome dogs when they fail clearances. Pet homes keep the dogs forever no matter what. 

I'm also pretty sad every time I see somebody not even realizing that they have been scammed pretty bad. 

^^^ A lot of this post is rambling and I'm blaming my sinus headache (darn seasonal allergies). I'm also happy for any excuse to share how much I love this breed. I wish people would see that for what it is - and not just assume everyone who talks about breed standards, ofa clearances, responsible breeders, and so on are snobs who are bad for the breed.  

All this breed standard, responsible breeders, ofa clearances, etc stuff is about preserving the key attributes of the breed. And trying to help people know the difference between a poodle mix and a golden retriever! Stuff like that.


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## eeerrrmmm1 (Apr 15, 2018)

DanaRuns said:


> My well-bred dogs are robust and sturdy. They are pretty near indestructible, which is a good thing because they are also so confident that they sometimes seem not to have a lot of regard for their own safety. They have thicker bone, proper balance, stronger muscles, and are more athletic than my rescues. They are like Terminator dogs compared to my rescues. And they are amazingly strong. It's really impressive, and I constantly marvel at them, thinking "this is what a sporting dog should be."
> 
> The rescues I have all have some sort of personality quirk. One is very soft. The other is just neurotic. LOL. But my well-bred dogs all have rock solid temperaments. They are smart, happy, loyal, enthusiastic, confident without being aggressive, enthusiastic, biddable, easily trained, and did I mention enthusiastic? But my well-bred dogs are not couch potatoes. They are athletes. Still, every minute I'm sitting on the sofa, one or more of them is on me, next to me, or lying on my feet.
> 
> ...


I don't have a well bred dog but honestly, she ticks a lot of the boxes you mentioned with two exceptions - I do not believe she is structurally balanced. Of course this is the point that I worry about the most. And she certainly does not have a stomach like an iron trap! Lol. Wouldn't that be nice.. 

However, thick bone, strong muscles (omg is she strong). Solid, sweet, happy, confident temperament all yes! She'll be covered in mud one second and a minute later it dries and falls right off like it was never there (thank you Lord Tweedmouth for that wonderfully practical bit). Burrs though.. eehh. She gets those. Not tons but I do have to pick them out sometimes. 

She loves the water and loves retrieving stuff from it and retrieving generally. She learned super fast to use a pool ladder - not just the stairs that we have but a ladder style at my in-laws. She's a smart strong girl. :grin2: When she was a puppy, she was interested in bunnies or squirrels but birds were BIRDS to her. Her breeder's grown sons hunt with Luna's half siblings so I suppose it makes sense that she has a strong interest in tracking birds.

No food, skin or environmental allergies thankfully. I have taken her to the vet an insane amount but that's my fault not hers. I joked to the vet's receptionist that I take Luna in every time she farts and she didn't exactly disagree. 

I wonder if there tends to be differences in BYB goldens in different areas of the country.. If I wasn't always concerned about the elevated risk for dysplasia or eye conditions (due to her mom's lack of clearances), I'd love to have one of her siblings. But those things are just too big. Next time I'll wait for a well bred pup.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@eeerrrmmm1 - A breeder friend called the really nice dogs from nowhere "diamonds in the rough". She looks pretty nice in your signature picture<:


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## Ivyacres (Jun 3, 2011)

Very interesting thread. Yes, I did read every post, (quote. (And if you've read this far you really need to get a hobby.







) ) ...no, my hubby is sure I don't need any more hobbies. lol.
Our girl has many excellent traits of a well bred golden, but she also has a few of the less desirable traits mentioned. At the time we didn't understand the importance and price of well bred goldens, after all we only wanted a pet. Unfortunately, we found this forum after we found Honey. It was like love at first sight when we held that little ball of fluff, no chance of leaving her there. We were fortunate and got much more than our $300.'s worth. 

Thanks for explaining the differences and importance of good breeding.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

My well-bred Golden comes from performance lines. He is my agility partner, and I can tell you that I have never, in more than 50 years of dog ownership, had a dog that is easier to train or more willing to work. He understands quickly and intuitively, and while he's a happy, goofy Golden outside the agility ring (rolling on the ground, stealing ice cream from babies in strollers, etc.), the instant we enter the ring he becomes focused and ready to go. I don't think I truly understood the impact that a breeder's choices can have until I got this dog. His breeder has many decades of experience and competes at the very top level in obedience. The pups she produces are successful in many venues. It's not a coincidence: when you watch my dog learn and work, it's clear and obvious that he has years of good breeding behind him. Living with this dog has been a revelation for me.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

ceegee said:


> He understands quickly and intuitively, and while he's a happy, goofy Golden outside the agility ring (rolling on the ground, stealing ice cream from babies in strollers, etc.), the instant we enter the ring he becomes focused and ready to go.


This. Mine is the same way when it is time to work. However, he usually chooses to steal shoes, socks, and anything and everything that might be floating in our pool - toys, balls, floats (even when the kids are still on them), goggles, swim fins..... Luckily, the kids are good sports about it and have deemed him our pool patrol and unofficial lifeguard.


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## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

There is definitely a difference between good and poorly bred Goldens. I'll never understand why the AKC encourages poor breeding practices, which it does thanks to its Marketplace section. It's sad.


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## Jmcarp83 (May 4, 2018)

My first golden was from a man down the road on one of the farms near my house. He did not “mass breed” but he certainly wasn’t a puppy mill and certainly not a guy doing health clearances on his dogs. Ella was definitely from “field” lines but did not care about birds, rabbits, or any of that stuff. She lived with a lab who had (and still at 13.5 years old) an intense drive for chasing or barking at anything...including frogs. Ella would wait for Holly to go get the frisbee and bring it back to only take it from her halfway. Ella did once catch a live mouse. I have never disliked two things at once so much (because I had to get a live mouse out of a dog’s mouth while my lab waited to get it from Ella. She wasn’t a fan of the water but I didn’t take her swimming because there wasn’t really any place around I knew of. She did go swimming one Christmas morning in the neighbors pond. That was...fun. Not!!!!

She was probably taller than she should have been because a vet convinced to have her spayed before 8 months. One ear was not the same length as the other ear (and it was why I loved her so much...). So she wasn’t structurally correct. She weighed 70 lbs most of her adult life. 

Now Stella...she’s structurally correct. She’s beautiful. Her teeth could be a dog dentist’s poster for dog’s with braces. Except hers came in that way. My “guess” is she’s around 55 lbs. She was in a cute pet contest and people were emailing the magazine editor to ask where she was from because they wanted a Golden and were in love with her. I mean...I’m in love with her, so it excites me. But will they like what they find out when they realize she’s from 4 hours away and not $850 from the puppy mills 1 hour away?! They’re not going to find her look there. 

Stella is patient. She’s calm. She’s definitely willing to please and learn quickly. She has an instinct to be pet and there’s no licking. No nuzzling. “Face front; pet me peasant” is my entire families joke about her!! She doesn’t look at you while being pet, which I do miss. But I think it’s good for her when we go to do therapy work. She’s confident but so was Ella. Stella’s instinct to chew is probably less (minus remotes and socks) than Ella’s ever was. Ella chewed a hole in a wall, chewed a hutch, chewed chairs, chewed trim. But maybe it was just a difference in training 11 years ago.

Stella can find anything you hide. The remote...she can find it. I still wish she’d tell me where she hid the fire stick remote at 5 months old. 

Stella’s still a baby (13 months). I would honestly say she’s been pretty easy to train. We finished her Intermediate Rally title two weeks ago- she did it in 3 tries. Her instructor said she still has dogs in the class for the third time with only one leg qualified. I’ve been amazed with her scores in the 90’s at a young age. She’s obsessed with water. Cries out if you don’t throw bumpers for her fast enough. Watches birds over children. She’s definitely a “retrieving” dog. She’s passed her CGCA and no doubt if I could find a CGCU locally she’d pass that. Ella was not this patient or behaved in public. It was embarrassing to be in public sometimes. 

If you looked at Ella compared to Stella it would be obvious where they came from. But both were/are my loves in their own ways.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

GoldenDude said:


> There is definitely a difference between good and poorly bred Goldens. I'll never understand why the AKC encourages poor breeding practices, which it does thanks to its Marketplace section. It's sad.


AKC has it's own problems, considering back in the 2000's they stuck a finger in the eye of the average good breeder and opened things up to mixed breed dogs. We went from people referring to mixed breeds as "All American" as a way to promote adopting mixed breed dogs.... to people deliberately breeding mixed breed dogs. Currently speaking, being forced to neuter your dog in order to compete in sports is the only deterrent to deliberately breeding or purchasing mixed breeds. Likewise breeding dogs who cannot be registered the usual way. As most people neuter dogs ASAP anyway, that is no deterrent. 

The whole point of opening AKC trials and competitions up to mixed breeds and unpapered dogs was in answer to the requests of all the people who got into training their adopted "all American" dog or unregisterable dog and wanted to show off how wonderful they were. 

And I gather that has been a BOON for people who purchased those dogs with the "continental" registration or adopted a mutt and got hooked on some sport... 

But the negative side is it went far to validate and encourage bad breeding practices.

Then as well, back in the 90's and prior, if breeders were concerned about pet people turning around and becoming startup breeders, they simply withheld papers until the owners showed proof of neutering. Or they withheld papers completely, providing the new owners with a pedigree only. 

AKC wanted more people registering dogs, so they created the limited registration... Which combined with AKC opening the door to mixed breeds, essentially downgraded the value of purchasing and owning a purebred dog. <= And I'm saying that as somebody who VALUES the limited registration. I still know it's been bad and counterproductive in many ways. 

In just a short period of time (30 years?) - We've gone from puppy classes resembling conformation handling classes with all the purebred puppies + the teachers encouraging the owners try out conformation, as well as all training programs being focused on keeping those puppies in training long enough for the trainers to get CD's on them.... to there being no point in taking your dogs to obedience classes beyond socialization and showing off your cute puppy... or creating a connection between you and your newly adopted dog. 

There are people getting into dog obedience instruction today who don't know how to train different breeds based on their different temperaments related to their purposes. You have a push towards training all dogs the same way and attributing the same "people in a fur coat" emotional state to each and every single one of them. 

We went from AKC obedience trials being held at outdoor shows in a ring right next to conformation rings... to clubs moving shows indoors and dropping obedience completely.

And people who think agility is the natural replacement for obedience in connection to big conformation shows - giving spectators a bigger view of all the sports their dog can play? Whoa, hey. A pretty big local show that is held every January has cut obedience and they also lost agility. This because the agility club was not making enough money after fees + did not have enough volunteers + volunteers were overworked + competitors hated the big/noisy/crowded show. <= This is the same show, I might add, which used to be held outdoors on fairgrounds. And probably saved a lot of money back then.

Newest warp that AKC is trying is allowing people to dye their dogs in agility and rumors were obedience as well. <= This despite it being disgusting.

The Hilarious thing is agility people whining about dogs being dyed in conformation despite it being against the rules.... and they are missing the point. No dog in conformation is dyed to match the owner, or dyed to look like a unicorn, and so on. Any colors used in conformation are done to cover flaws while showing an apparently all natural dog. 

There is nothing natural about showing a dog who looks like he rolled in paint.

^^^^ This is the morning after having a sinus headache all day the previous day. Sorry for it being dark. :laugh:

More positively speaking, btw.... people who focus on AKC for everything are missing the point.

GRCA is the breed club. 

People should be going to the GRCA website for information on the breed. 

And they should be following GRCA referrals to finding their local clubs and breed referrals.

And by the way - realize that most places have local golden retriever clubs. They put on conformation events - and obedience events. They also put on field events. 

People might feel WEIRD about attending some random event as a spectator, but they are absolutely welcome. I think? <= I still have not gotten out to any field events to see what actually happens, but it's something in the back of my head since I DO want to find a golden retriever person I can train with next spring/summer. 

There's a show next week here in MI which usually draws a decent entry of goldens. There's also a relatively small obedience trial attached, if you want to take a peek and see what's what + meet prospective breeders for your next pup.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Sometimes, new people come here looking for information, and they are given really good information by the regulars here. Those new people sometimes then go on to ignore the good information, argue with it, or even scold or insult the providers of that information. There are some very knowledgeable people here (though, frankly, a number of the more knowledgeable people have been driven away) who give their time, knowledge, experience, and insight for no reason except to help people less knowledgeable and less experienced. These helpers are also the ones who know why getting a well-bred dog is so important.*

The better practice is to listen to these folks when they talk. They are giving you (generic "you") wisdom that would take you years or decades to learn otherwise, and they are doing it for free, and only with good intentions to help you. So when you're here asking about breedings, or practices, or referrals, or whatever, keep in mind that those knowledgeable folks helping you are _helping_ you, for your _benefit_ and for the benefit of others who will read the threads later on.



*_I am not meaning to include myself in that group, even though I started this thread and I am an advocate for well-bred dogs. This is not me being self-aggrandizing. I'll leave it to y'all to decide whether or not I am one of the knowledgeable helpers. Some see me more as sandpaper. Eye of the beholder, and all, right? I am talking about the several others, and I think all the regulars know who they are._


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

Yet, without sandpaper, we’d all get splinters (or worse) on the tree of life. So, thanks for preventing a few splinters (or worse).


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

I literally cannot even put into words how thankful I am that I found this forum. I have become pretty much obsessed/enthralled with all of the information I have learned here and hope to continue learning for as long as possible. I think the people who come here with an open mind, and the motivation to r_eally_ educate themselves, do so. It's the people who come here looking to cause drama or with their own agenda that do not fare well.


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## Shalala1962 (Jul 6, 2019)

I could not agree with you more emmdenn. I learn something everyday on this forum and am so thankful to those who offer their time and knowledge to those who want to be educated. Did I just go off topic? Uh oh.


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## LMJones (Mar 14, 2018)

*Clearance help*

Hello Im not sure how to read clearances paperwork nor know if its the correct documentation. My husband and I found a golden retriever puppy we want to purchase, but its not from a breeder. The girl has pedigree papers for the parents & what looks like vet clearances. Would it be possible for someone help me?

Thank you


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

LMJones said:


> Hello Im not sure how to read clearances paperwork nor know if its the correct documentation. My husband and I found a golden retriever puppy we want to purchase, but its not from a breeder. The girl has pedigree papers for the parents & what looks like vet clearances. Would it be possible for someone help me?
> 
> Thank you


Probably best to start a thread + give the registration numbers for the parents for people to look up on OFA. 

If hips and elbows were cleared - it will be posted on OFA. 

I'm not at home, otherwise I would probably be able to provide a "censored" scan of what registration paperwork looks like when you receive it from a breeder....which I realize just now is not what you are asking about. But as far as clearances themselves, in this current time - all clearances should be easily viewed by anyone online if they've been done. You just need the AKC #'s or names of the parents.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

LMJones said:


> Hello Im not sure how to read clearances paperwork nor know if its the correct documentation. My husband and I found a golden retriever puppy we want to purchase, but its not from a breeder. The girl has pedigree papers for the parents & what looks like vet clearances. Would it be possible for someone help me?


You can reference this thread, which includes graphics. LJack has posted these graphics in multiple places. Either way, as Megora said, post the registered names of the sire and dam, and someone will verify them for you.



https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co...r-breeder-puppy/504572-health-clearances.html


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

If it is a foreign language to you, just start a thread under choosing a breed (second section of topics) and put the registered names there. We love to help people decipher.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I am all about the well bred puppy, and of course the dogs have convinced me for all the reasons discussed, but it's also almost as much for me because of the people. Most of them who I have met as a direct result of this forum or know of because of this forum. 

I'd rather support a person who is doing his or her level best to do the right thing by the dogs they produce. I'd rather spend my money with a breeder who cares so much about doing the right thing that she would walk away from dog sports and breeding before she'd dream of compromising her standards on clearances, or raising puppies or how she chooses puppy homes. It means everything to me to know there are people who really walk the walk when it comes to doing the best by the breed. They don't just talk about loving Goldens, they do everything in their power to give their puppies the best chances at high quality lives. Those special people trying so hard to never stop learning and who care so much and persevere even when things go heartbreakingly wrong. Thanks to all of you and to those of you who put so much effort into 'community outreach'  educating people when sometimes it feels like beating your head against a brick wall. I'm very grateful for your time and all you'v taught me and agree with Usually Lurking, a little sandpaper makes the world go round  this forum was certainly the better for it over the years.


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## ecaba (Aug 19, 2019)

Just chiming in here that I am incredibly grateful to have found this forum, though like others, I found it after my husband and I had already gotten our girl. She's definitely not breed standard with her golden back and white underside from her chest to her tail, she weighs 65 lb at only 9.5 months old (vet estimates that she'll be around 80 lb full grown), and stands about 26" tall when I measured her this afternoon (I joke that she's 95% legs right now). Jury is still out on how long her coat will be, but every golden owner I see thinks that she's either a lab from afar or that she's been shaved (neither being the case) just because her coat is currently quite short. However, she's incredibly sweet, mostly well-behaved (she'd come to work with me and just lay there quietly or sleep most of the day), barely barks, and loves tennis balls and sticks. I also wouldn't trade her for the world. However, had we known what we know now when it came time to get a puppy, we wouldn't have gone the route we did just because a lot of her background is very largely unknown. I've never even seen pictures of her parents, though I did discover that her dad is at least half cream judging by the pictures on K9Data.

This forums has educated me greatly (and by proxy, my husband whether he likes it or not  ) that we've already vowed to never go the route we did with Zelda, and instead do our homework to find a breeder that will provide us a well-bred dog regardless of what breed we go with next should we go that route. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for willingness to educate on a breed we're all passionate about as I'm obsessively absorbing everything I can to make sure I'm giving my dog the best possible life regardless of what happens down the road.


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## Heidi Wheeler Duckworth (Aug 10, 2018)

DanaRuns said:


> I'll leave it to y'all to decide whether or not I am one of the knowledgeable helpers. Some see me more as sandpaper. Eye of the beholder, and all, right? I am talking about the several others, and I think all the regulars know who they are.[/i]


Yes Dana,

You are one of the knowledgeable helpers. Your posts always teach me something and I am very appreciative. :smile2:


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## MushyB (Oct 31, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> Money- well bred puppies cost money.
> Oh- on your guess which photo---- someone recently was mentioning eye color. Those amber eyes would be a good photo to show that person if we remember who it was.


Quick question: are the amber eyes an indication of poor breeding? Are Goldens supposed to have dark brown eyes only? I missed the post about eyes and I'm curious now. I have one golden (our senior rescue) who has lovely amber eyes, and who we will lose soon to degenerative myelopathy. Total sweetheart, we've only had him for 2 years, and we're guessing he's 12-13-ish, not sure. Then our 10.5 month pup (from who I felt was a good breeder, based on my basic research, and honestly a gut feeling after our first phone convo, which is terrible to admit but the truth), whose eyes are a lovely deep brown. Their looks are so different, it's almost crazy they are the same breed!

Thanks for the info!

ps
re: the photo - it's the pup in the middle, right?


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## Aidan0311 (Jun 12, 2019)

I too did not do enough research and bought from, what I suspect, a backyard breeder. We got out 1st ever golden puppy Aidan in July. I assumed if they were listed on AKC website that they were ok and reputable! Since we’ve had him I’ve done countless hours of research and realized the mistake! Although I wouldn’t trade Aidan for anything, I worry about his future health. We love him to death! Whenever we get another pup I’ll make sure to find a good breeder!


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

MushyB said:


> Prism Goldens said:
> 
> 
> > Money- well bred puppies cost money.
> ...


Eyes — friendly and intelligent in expression, medium large with dark, close-fitting rims, set well apart and reasonably deep in sockets. Color preferably dark brown; medium brown acceptable. Slant eyes and narrow, triangular eyes detract from correct expression and are to be faulted. No white or haw visible when looking straight ahead. Dogs showing evidence of functional abnormality of eyelids or eyelashes (such as, but not limited to, trichiasis, entropion, ectropion, or distichiasis) are to be excused from the ring.

Dark brown eyes are preferable in the breed standard, with medium brown acceptable, but amber is not correct. So yes, the dog in the middle of Dana’s photo with the light eyes is the one who doesn’t fit the breed standard the way the others do. What a cute photo by the way....lots of happy dogs! ?


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

MushyB said:


> Quick question: are the amber eyes an indication of poor breeding? Are Goldens supposed to have dark brown eyes only?


To answer your question, here's what the breed standard has to say about eyes (bold added):

"Eyes friendly and intelligent in expression, medium large with dark, close-fitting rims, set well apart and reasonably deep in sockets. *Color preferably dark brown; medium brown acceptable.* Slant eyes and narrow, triangular eyes detract from correct expression and are to be faulted. No white or haw visible when looking straight ahead."

I've had dogs where the eyes are so dark they look almost black, and to me that's a good thing. And the lighter, the worser.



> re: the photo - it's the pup in the middle, right?


Yeah. I hope it is obvious to people. The eyes are one way to tell. The lack of pigment on the nose and rims of the eyes. The narrow skull. The narrow and tapered muzzle. The fact that she's smaller than all the rest. And note that all the other dogs have their ears up, while this one has her ears down and back, which tells you something about temperament. This girl is very soft. She is our omega dog. There are three other dogs not in the photo, but they would look like the four, not like the one in the middle.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

MushyB said:


> Quick question: are the amber eyes an indication of poor breeding?


Not necessarily, there are some very well bred field dogs that have/had lighter eyes. While not preferred, that is something that doesn't impact working ability so is often on the bottom of the list when breeding high level working dogs.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Light eyes doesn't affect a dog's life or working ability (as mentioned by myluckypenny), but when I see it I know that breeder isn't breeding to the standard, and it makes me wonder what else they may have sacrificed for "working ability" or whatever priority the breeder has. It doesn't harm the dog, but to me it's a signal that the breeder might be compromised in other areas that does have an affect on the dog.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

DanaRuns said:


> Light eyes doesn't affect a dog's life or working ability (as mentioned by myluckypenny), but when I see it I know that breeder isn't breeding to the standard, and it makes me wonder what else they may have sacrificed for "working ability" or whatever priority the breeder has. It doesn't harm the dog, but to me it's a signal that the breeder might be compromised in other areas that does have an affect on the dog.


That's exactly what I think when I see some of the dogs in the show ring. Looking at them and thinking how they'd do duck hunting. How many of those show dogs have been tested in the field? How do you know if you are breeding to the standard if your dog hasn't picked up a bird and delivered it to hand. Personally, I'd value "primarily a hunting dog" over dark eyes. last time I checked, working ability is part of the standard. Would it be fair for me to say "any breeder that doesn't actively hunt or put hunting titles on their dogs is potentially compromised"? 

I'm sorry but comments like this get me heated. Stanley Steamer is a famous field dog that happened to pass on light eyes, but to imply that his breeder or those that used him might be "compromised" is an outrageous claim.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Jamie - if breeders are not following the breed standard and only breeding for purpose.... then they might as well be breeding mixed breed dogs. The breed standard is there for a specific reason. It's preventing people from going too far off track and producing dogs who are physically very poor representatives of the breed, no matter what they do.

Me personally - I dislike yellow eyes on any dog. This breed should have a beautiful expression right down to big dark brown eyes. 

I get that this is a tough and touchy thing because there are people getting into the breed who want a dog that can compete with field bred labs. 

I sat down and listened to a big flat coated retriever person talking about the difference between labs and flat coats - this after I jokingly told her that her lab (she kinda inherited/rescued) was just a short-coated flat coat. She laughed about that and went all out describing how labs are so thick skinned and thick skulled compared to flat coats. 

With flat coats, she has dogs who you do not just keep asking them to do the same thing over and over - because they will burn out. <= I did a double take, because many goldens are like that.

With labs, she said that they are very "simple". They won't question why you keep making them do something over and over - they'll just keep doing it. 

I believe there are people who want some of that in a working dog without getting a lab. So they are breeding goldens to become more like field labs than actual goldens. That's blurring the line between breed just regarding behavior. And if you are not held back by physical breed standards and having to keep things like pigment, eye color, coat color, coat length, coat thickness, toplines, tailsets, bone, balance, structure all resembling the breed standard.... then anything goes. You might as well be breeding a mixed breed on purpose. 

I think everyone needs to spend time learning more about the breed and studying the breed standard. 

On the conformation side - YEAH, there are people breeding dogs who are too heavily coated + the owners keep them fat.  But that's not everyone. When you are bashing conformation dogs across the board, you are bashing people who are very conscientious about the breed standard and breeding dogs who are correct and generation after generation after generation hold true.

Speaking personally - my dogs are in woods and fields every day, and swim multiple times a week. They have correct coats per the breed standard (double coated, moderate furnishings, correct texture). They do not have skin problems or coat problems. And nothing physically would prevent them from being duck dogs. It does come down to training - most of us don't go into field training because of various reasons. In my case, the last time I took my dogs out for field training - Jovi tried eating a live bird and did not want to give it up. I'm unwilling to electrocute my dog or pinch his ears until he screams from pain - which is something that some hard handed people in field do to quickly get a dog past problems. My take on getting past problems caused by lack of obedience training - is sticking to obedience training and trying again later when my dog is mature.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

myluckypenny said:


> That's exactly what I think when I see some of the dogs in the show ring. Looking at them and thinking how they'd do duck hunting. How many of those show dogs have been tested in the field? How do you know if you are breeding to the standard if your dog hasn't picked up a bird and delivered it to hand. Personally, I'd value "primarily a hunting dog" over dark eyes. last time I checked, working ability is part of the standard. Would it be fair for me to say "any breeder that doesn't actively hunt or put hunting titles on their dogs is potentially compromised"?
> 
> I'm sorry but comments like this get me heated. Stanley Steamer is a famous field dog that happened to pass on light eyes, but to imply that his breeder or those that used him might be "compromised" is an outrageous claim.


For sure some of the show dogs would sink w the overdone coats.. but when we breed a litter, we hope we can breed structural excellent animals to structural excellent animals, and that they also will have the desire to hunt that is inherent in our breed. Personally, field titles are a huge part of proving a dog imo. They don't have to be Stanley level achievers but certainly get a WC/X or JH... and in reality there are tons more show CHs who get JH's than there are FCs who get even a single point. I hope they get a CCA. To me that would be the equiv. of a show CH getting a WC. 
Many of the field breeders are guilty of breeding attitude over structure. Many of the show breeders are guilty of breeding winning looks over attitude. There are a lot of good breeders who try to do both- with emphasis to their venue of choice- and those will be the ones who keep our breed whole.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

You are slightly missing my point. I'm not actually saying all show dogs need field titles to be considered breed worthy. I think it would be awesome, but believe me I know how time consuming and expensive it is. I simply hate when show breeders make the same kind of blanket statements about field dogs. I personally hate light eyes, but if a dog with as much to offer the breed as one like Stanley, then yeah I'm going to go ahead and say that breeding him was a good idea. Dogs are more than just ONE feature and not breeding a dog because of that is throwing that baby out with the bath water. We aren't talking about a straight front that will cause the dog to break down early. Its silly, our genetic pool is small enough as is. That is the only point my post was trying to make. 

I agree some field breeders take it too far, but the same goes for some of the blonde newfie looking things I see. I have both a conformation line boy and a field boy. I have both sides of the golden coin and love them both, there is room for everyone. Stop bashing other breeders because they aren't breeding exactly what you want. If we just had show breeders unfortunately our breed would lose a lot of that retrieving instinct. So be thankful there are still people out there that want to compete at that high level and promote the golden retriever breed as a hunting dog.

And a JH should not be the standard by which we judge a hunting dog, being able to handle on a blind retrieve is key to a good hunting dog and that isn't tested until SH level. And the number of FC's in the golden world is SOOOO much smaller than the number of champions every year.

EDIT: All I'm saying is that it's extremely tough to prove your golden meets the standard in EVERY way. It's expensive and time-consuming and I admire those that do get that CH MH sooo much. Just stop bashing other reputable breeders, there are plenty of really terrible ones that the good ones don't need to go after each other.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I simply hate when show breeders make the same kind of blanket statements about field dogs.


They are not making blanket statements though. 

You just a big whopper of a blanket statement w/r to all conformation dogs not being duck dogs based on appearance. That's a very shallow statement to make. Might add, it's the kind of statement which people make about other people's dogs and they have to eat their words later when those other dogs do just fine in field. I know somebody who had people making all kinds of comments about her big blond boy (who was like my Jacks' doppelganger, I might add - so think big boy, big head, go ahead call him a blond newfie if that makes you feel better about yourself - it says more about how many newfies you've actually seen than anything else) - who ended up being MH+many MH excess legs. That boy, I might add, did not wow anyone at all in obedience. He got titled, but it was not pretty. He was a lagger. According to the owner, all switches turned ON when he was in field. Stop basing opinions of performance based on appearance. Performance titles are based on what people do with what they have. 

Some of the reasons why people don't go too deeply into field is because the resources are either not there, or people do not want the dogs to be trained with a hard hand. 

Going further... Owning a "conformation bred dog" does not make you informed about what that even is or what the more conscientious breeders out there are DOING when breeding dogs. Which is really sad because go over to people who compete in conformation and they have a very tough time looking at somebody's "conformation bred dog" without seeing various faults. 

And some of the dogs out there who have yellow eyes have more than one serious fault like that. Because it literally is breeders not caring a fig about what the dog looks like because they just want titles. It's why I think it's very UNFAIR to the dogs when the owners try putting them on conformation structure critique sites and ask for opinions. The dogs were not bred with appearance in mind.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Prism Goldens said:


> There are a lot of good breeders who try to do both- with emphasis to their venue of choice- and those will be the ones who keep our breed whole.


^^^^This. It seems like so many people generalize entire subsets of the breed based on the extreme ends of the spectrum, when really the majority of people are probably somewhere in the middle. The vast majority of show breeders that I’ve met definitely do care about working ability and temperament. Many/most of them title their dogs in other areas besides conformation, whether it’s field, agility, dock diving, obedience, etc. They title their dogs in areas that they personally enjoy, can afford, and have access to. And these are not people that get CH’s and quit showing. These are people consistently breeding Top 20 dogs. 

Last year’s People’s Choice winner was getting double Q’s in agility last week and went BOB at the Garden State GRC Specialty yesterday. Owner-handled and trained in both venues. 

The number one show Golden for two years running now has a JH and WCX among other backend titles. And he’s also approaching the record for most BISS in breed history. This dog just happened to be at the show when we took the puppy to show in BPUP. My husband, who generally isn’t involved in the dog world, took one look at him and said, “now that’s what a Golden should be.”


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Myluckypenny, you are being very defensive and are reading into posts (mine in particular) things that were not said. What you're worked up about is what you're bringing, not in anything actually said here. I think if you set down what you're carrying and read it again, you might get a different and more accurate impression. I can't believe my comment about light eyes sparked all these extreme conclusions.

That said, I no longer title my conformation dogs in hunt/field, and that's for two reasons: (1) I have a moral objection to killing animals for sport/practice/fun (makes me sick to see dozens of birds casually and unnecessarily killed for practice, day after day after day); and (2) I do not like some of the common training methods required for MH etc. titles. It doesn't mean we don't test and breed for original intent. We train pretty enthusiastically with bumpers at our local training grounds, including water and multiple retrieves, etc. But we'll never get another title because of (1) and (2) above.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

DanaRuns said:


> Myluckypenny, you are being very defensive and are reading into posts (mine in particular) things that were not said.


You are probably right, I probably was reading more into your post than what you intended. For some reason, putting "working ability" in quotes came off really condescending to me. Maybe its because I see how much of need there is for any golden breeder that wants to do field work. So when anyone even hints that some that may breed dogs with a fault like light eyes may not be 100% reputable really grinds my gears. This is likely due to how few goldens are actually in the game (in my area). I ran 3 hunt tests this year and marshaled a field trial and at two of the three hunt tests I was the only one with a golden, the third has two other people with goldens. And there were no goldens in the field trial. It's just really alarming to me personally, so I think that drove my reaction. 

Dana, I know you breed wonderful dogs so I hope you know I wasn't attacking your program at all, heck Deuce is easily one of my favorite youngsters and I follow along with all of your litters! And I'm not sure if you know this but there is a field event that doesn't use real birds, the Super Retriever Series uses Avery Ez-Birds, which is a fun alternative for those handlers with aversions to using real birds.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

myluckypenny said:


> there is a field event that doesn't use real birds, the Super Retriever Series uses Avery Ez-Birds, which is a fun alternative for those handlers with aversions to using real birds.


Thanks for this info. I wasn't aware of this and definitely have an aversion to real birds.....


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Megora said:


> You just a big whopper of a blanket statement w/r to all conformation dogs not being duck dogs based on appearance. That's a very shallow statement to make.


So I'm not sure if you know this, but I actually hunt with my blonde, big headed, heavily coated golden. He can do the work, but he has to work harder than the dogs with a more moderate coat. It was my fault for following my sentence about looking at dogs in the ring with a sentence about working ability when they weren't intended to go together. You can't tell by looking at a dog how much drive it has for retrieving, but I can tell by looking at one how much harder it would be for them to actually hunt based on the amount of coat. I wasn't saying it wasn't possible, I in fact know otherwise because my own dog does it. It's after having him and training in field events that my opinion on what a "moderate" coat is has changed. I could see why my comment was interpreted the way it was, but it wasn't the intent! 

Also, I don't just own a conformation dog, I show him too (VERY limited thus far, similar to you for field work its just not my priority until he's a matured dog). 

Also I realize we all live in very different parts of the country, so maybe what we are seeing in terms of goldens is also pretty different. The field dogs in my area are actually pretty nice and could easily get CCA's. Maybe that's not the case in your areas.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

usually lurking said:


> Thanks for this info. I wasn't aware of this and definitely have an aversion to real birds.....


Yeah I think it's fairly new and its through the UKC not AKC, but its a great option for those who's only hang-up to field work is the birds!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I'm intrigued with this new Avery bird thing.. we have a UKC HT along w our AKC HT here in the fall, and while I do not have a problem w birds (I'm the one who quietly breaks the neck as I hang the bird if a flyer isn't quite dead) I do know some people whose dogs would love the opportunity to do a test...and they always cite being bird bothered. Is this something that runs alongside a HT, or a totally different event? I find the HRC site difficult to maneuver around, and I did find this but it looks a bit like a special event maybe @ end of the season...https://www.superretrieverseries.com/which says entries are $125 and I couldn't figure out if that was a season ending thing or the way it runs every time..


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

myluckypenny said:


> So I'm not sure if you know this, but I actually hunt with my blonde, big headed, heavily coated golden. He can do the work, but he has to work harder than the dogs with a more moderate coat.


I know you do more than just field - that's why I was as exasperated as I was over your broad comment. It's bad enough that some people out there who have never ever been inside the show ring completely go the the "retriever man" route in making up all kinds of nonsense about show goldens based on pictures. *facepalm* You are out there in SD - and I basically have no idea what's out there. I really do not know of any breeders in the dakotas. My baby sister and her family have been in ND for about 3 years (moving back to the REAL midwest in couple months WOOT!) and all the goldens they've seen have been of the backyard breeder variety. And there's nothing out there. 

Again - it's what you do with what you got that matters. A lot of people find they have to work harder with show goldens, because you can't just drill them nonstop for 1-2 hours. They will quit on you. They ARE quite smart and fun to train - you just have to train differently and work harder. Field especially. 

And many of them you have to train a retrieve, because they either don't come with one or they are not as manic about it as field bred goldens. A lot of people make a huge deal about training a retrieve being a sin for the breed, but they learn fast and it becomes one of their favorite things if you teach them right and start them young enough. 


As far as other things - I have no idea what you consider to be "heavily coated". I have a mental image of what I consider to be too heavily coated, but I've got people who tell me that my dogs have too much coat.... but I consider their coats to be correct per the breed standard. And they are like seals in the water. That correct coat, among else, keeps them comfortable when swimming when temps are a little bit cooler... it's not just length, it's the dense undercoat under that correct top coat.


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

Prism Goldens said:


> I'm intrigued with this new Avery bird thing.. we have a UKC HT along w our AKC HT here in the fall, and while I do not have a problem w birds (I'm the one who quietly breaks the neck as I hang the bird if a flyer isn't quite dead) I do know some people whose dogs would love the opportunity to do a test...and they always cite being bird bothered. Is this something that runs alongside a HT, or a totally different event? I find the HRC site difficult to maneuver around, and I did find this but it looks a bit like a special event maybe @ end of the season...https://www.superretrieverseries.com/which says entries are $125 and I couldn't figure out if that was a season ending thing or the way it runs every time..


I’d love to hear more about this too! I’ve volunteered at our hunt tests, but have been a little squeamish about the bird issue. But I have two dogs who I think would really like it, so I guess I need to get over it lol.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

HaliaGoldens said:


> I’d love to hear more about this too! I’ve volunteered at our hunt tests, but have been a little squeamish about the bird issue. But I have two dogs who I think would really like it, so I guess I need to get over it lol.


I'd love to hear more, too. And I too have volunteered at our hunt tests and WC/WCX tests, but am weirded out by the killing. My dogs love doing it. You can see it's what they were meant to do. It's incredible to see them work. Just not into the killing.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

myluckypenny said:


> So I'm not sure if you know this, but I actually hunt with my blonde, big headed, heavily coated golden. He can do the work, but he has to work harder than the dogs with a more moderate coat. It was my fault for following my sentence about looking at dogs in the ring with a sentence about working ability when they weren't intended to go together. You can't tell by looking at a dog how much drive it has for retrieving, but I can tell by looking at one how much harder it would be for them to actually hunt based on the amount of coat. I wasn't saying it wasn't possible, I in fact know otherwise because my own dog does it. It's after having him and training in field events that my opinion on what a "moderate" coat is has changed. I could see why my comment was interpreted the way it was, but it wasn't the intent!
> 
> Also, I don't just own a conformation dog, I show him too (VERY limited thus far, similar to you for field work its just not my priority until he's a matured dog).
> 
> Also I realize we all live in very different parts of the country, so maybe what we are seeing in terms of goldens is also pretty different. The field dogs in my area are actually pretty nice and could easily get CCA's. Maybe that's not the case in your areas.


We don't have a ton of true field Goldens working in this area. Most who are serious about field work have Labs. The few real field Goldens competing in this area are mostly brought in from elsewhere by professional handlers. I draw a distinction between dogs who can hunt and earn hunt titles, and those electrified enough to be top field trial competitors. A Golden doesn't need to imitate a field competition Lab in order to be a good hunter.

My own show dogs look like virtually all of the Goldens competing at local JH/SH hunt tests and WC/WCX tests, and the majority of those working for a MH. For instance, this show girl is a good hunter (though we just bred her, so she won't be doing any work until next year).



















And her mother, a GCH show dog, is also a good hunter. She looks like this.










And one of my show boys, Gibbs, is a terrific hunter. He's your typical "heavy coated" show dog.


















These guys all have great drive, lots of water courage, tons of focus, very birdy, huge retrieving instinct, and everything needed to fulfill the original purpose. Will they ever compete with top field trial Labs? Not on your life. But IMHO that's not what is necessary to be a hunter. Actual hunting and junior/senior hunt titles can be done by any decent Golden Retriever with the instinct, training, and skills, IMHO (though I anticipate I'll get a lot of push back from those heavy into competition, on that assertion). And to bring it back to my comment about light eyes, you can breed good hunters who meet the breed standard, and you can breed good show dogs who maintain fitness for original purpose.

And by the way, the breed standard says, "primarily a hunting dog," not, "primarily a field trial competition dog that can beat Labs."


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

HaliaGoldens said:


> I’d love to hear more about this too! I’ve volunteered at our hunt tests, but have been a little squeamish about the bird issue. But I have two dogs who I think would really like it, so I guess I need to get over it lol.


I wish I had more info, but I haven't really looked into it more than what I already posted.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

DanaRuns said:


> These guys all have great drive, lots of water courage, tons of focus, very birdy, huge retrieving instinct, and everything needed to fulfill the original purpose. Will they ever compete with top field trial Labs? Not on your life. But IMHO that's not what is necessary to be a hunter.


Genuine question for everyone. How many people do you know who's main or only focus with dogs is hunting that have goldens that would do well in the AKC ring? I can't think of a single one personally.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Anney Doucette's dogs do MH and CH. 
Kristen Sipus's girls do same.
DK on what the 'main' focus would be called other than 'versatile' but just in my area, there are 2 people and 6-8 dogs. 
Oops- thought of another- Pat Kopco's boys. She does MH and CH.

I know the point you were making, and agree for the most part on the field bred dogs- some of them can get a CCA (but even that's not a given) but the earning of a single point is not a likely event in most cases. 
Where the show bred dogs absolutely can earn a Wc/X or JH. It's not terribly reciprocal.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Dang, where to start!??

Anyways I 100% understand and agree with what MyLuckyPenny is saying....EVERY dog has faults. EVERY breeding program has perpetual faults that the breeder has decided it's something they can live with in an effort to preserve the good qualities they retain. Light eyes might be someone else's bugaboo but you know where they might rank on another breeder's list of priorities? WAY DOWN THERE. They do not harm the dog in any way, shape or form. Letting that one characteristic slide doesn't mean they are ignoring other things as well. It's called a compromise.

How many goldens in the show ring have super straight fronts? It's an epidemic. Does that mean they are being lackadaisical about other things? Maybe. Because tons of goldens in the show ring have not only super upright shoulders, but long loins, overangled rears, bad toplines, short necks, funky sky slope faces, bad tail sets, don't converge, don't have any reach, AND THEY WERE SPECIFICALLY BRED TO LOOK PRETTY. Don't even get me started on how they ignore temperament, excuse crappy behavior, and have absolutely zero trainability, stamina or stability. And they all keel over from cancer and get PU. Still ready to talk about yellow eyes?

SRS is not through UKC. Yes they use dummies rather than birds but it is a combination test of master-style hunt test, field trial and "hunting." It's full of pros, judged on a rather ephemeral point system, and they award money. It's not a JH test with bumpers. 

I applaud anyone who wants to do field work and gives it an honest go. A JH or WC is a great starting point! And super fun. But unless you're really experienced in field training and can read between the lines, JH or WC doesn't tell you SQUAT about the dog's actual hunting ability. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE realize that our breed is FULL of dogs who FREAKIN LOVE taking walks in the woods and fetching balls out of the pool and those same dogs HATE BIRDS (how useful of a hunting dog is that!?) and will refuse any water retrieve over 20 yards? If all they do is casual fun stuff you'd never ever in a million years realize this about the dog. I am telling you -- from experience -- that this is SUPER COMMON. You simply DON'T KNOW what you have until you ACTUALLY DO IT. 

Everyone balks at birds. Get over it. Unless you're vegan, I'm not buying it.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Prism Goldens said:


> Anney Doucette's dogs do MH and CH.
> Kristen Sipus's girls do same.
> DK on what the 'main' focus would be called other than 'versatile' but just in my area, there are 2 people and 6-8 dogs.
> Oops- thought of another- Pat Kopco's boys. She does MH and CH.
> ...


Yeah I know several that do both, and man I respect them soo much. I was just saying that for those that actually hunt, not just hunt tests, and have no ties to conformation, they have no use for the type of dog you see in the ring. I don't think that was the case way back when you had dogs like Quar. And I know both field events have changed as well as what's desired in the ring. Its really frustrating for someone that loves field work as a first priority but enjoys conformation. I try my best to support breeders that care about structure, but I won't ever own another dog with the amount of coat needed to succeed in all breed shows. 

You guys should know I have these same types of conversations with field people. They may not be able to point out the exact terms for proper conformation but most can recognize a well put together dog. Funny story - At the field trial last weekend, I had two of the guys trotting around pretending they were showing a dog. This was prompted because the chain he was using was actually a snake chain, he had no idea it is usually used for show dogs. He had just seen lots of pro trainers use it and decided to try it. He proceeded to do a down and back with an invisible dog :grin2:, I gave him a proper critique on his handling abilities LOL!


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Dang, where to start!??
> 
> Anyways I 100% understand and agree with what MyLuckyPenny is saying....EVERY dog has faults. EVERY breeding program has perpetual faults that the breeder has decided it's something they can live with in an effort to preserve the good qualities they retain. Light eyes might be someone else's bugaboo but you know where they might rank on another breeder's list of priorities? WAY DOWN THERE. They do not harm the dog in any way, shape or form. Letting that one characteristic slide doesn't mean they are ignoring other things as well. It's called a compromise.
> 
> ...


Hi Anney,
I agree with you! And I am vegan ?, so I do have some nagging feelings about the birds, however I also want to try it with my dogs anyway. So we’ll see how they react to it at the field day next month, and go from there.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I really don't give a flying banana what Anney thinks of my feeling about killing animals for absolutely no good purpose (and training and "fun" aren't a good purpose IMHO). I've hunted, I've had to wring their little necks, I've watched people get shot and die, and it affected me enough to decide that I won't participate in the killing. It's a moral issue for me. I respect that it doesn't bother you; you should respect that it does bother me.

And you guys have COMPLETELY taken my comment about light eyes out of context and sent it right off the rails. Good golly, Miss Molly!


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

DanaRuns said:


> I won't participate in the killing. It's a moral issue for me.


This is my issue, as well. I don't want to kill things for sport. I try to teach my kids to respect all life. All three of my boys are sensitive, as well. They get upset when things die. Pretty sure my oldest, who is basically an adult, would cry if he had to wring a neck or shoot something. We don't kill bugs (or spiders) outside, unless they are a threat to us. For instance, I had to have a yellow jacket nest sprayed last year because they are aggressive and I didn't want the kids or dog to get stung. (If they come in my house, different story...) My dog caught a low flying bird in mid-air a few months ago, and I called for him to drop it, which he did. We tried to save it, but it had been too traumatized. 

At any rate, that is why the mention of hunt type activities without live birds was appealing to me. My oldest might enjoy participating.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> How many goldens in the show ring have super straight fronts? It's an epidemic. Does that mean they are being lackadaisical about other things? Maybe. Because tons of goldens in the show ring have not only super upright shoulders, but long loins, overangled rears, bad toplines, short necks, funky sky slope faces, bad tail sets, don't converge, don't have any reach, AND THEY WERE SPECIFICALLY BRED TO LOOK PRETTY. Don't even get me started on how they ignore temperament, excuse crappy behavior, and have absolutely zero trainability, stamina or stability. And they all keel over from cancer and get PU. Still ready to talk about yellow eyes?


Anney, my impression has been that breeders will breed for what judges put up. Or they are breeding to the same stud dogs, all of them based on what is popular. And I'm talking about breeders who are breeding for themselves. 

And most of the breeders I know around here are aiming for the most correct dogs they can. But they are not over compensating to have a dog whose front is amazing, but whose rears are super straight... or there's other notable things that are off? Or breeding to dogs who have such a major fault like yellow eyes. 

The rest - I know people breeding dogs whose lines have early deaths or temperament problems or they admit openly that they will never ever let their adult dogs off leash because they will run and never come back and not touching that. Talk to anyone and they will yack like crazy about other people's lines. That's where the real politics is...  

And oh. How about a different peeve since it's on my mind today? Yes, can we vent?  

Judges who focus to the nth degree on whatever their pet issue is... and end up making goshawful choices because of it? Or judges that are inconsistent?

I won't name the judge because I've heard she's a good judge, but... OK. Let me start this a different way. 

Showed to this judge 2 years ago with my Bertie. 

I went around the ring with him and was smiling broadly because I thought he was moving beautifully. This was the day after we won a major over 20 dogs (and most of those in the same ring). I literally had this feeling that a second major 2 days in a row was possible. 

Judge pulled us out and told me my dog was limping. And excused us from the ring.

I spoke with people outside the ring + other exhibitors inside the ring - nobody saw any limping. They said my dog was floating. 

I tracked down exhibitors I know who are also vets and asked them to watch me move him - and again, he moved beautifully. 

Chalked it up to possibly the judge seeing something that was just momentary that my dog had already "shaken off". 

Fast forward to recently showing my younger dog to the same judge. I had no idea what to expect, because everything I read about this judge told me that she was not going to like him. He is blond and about 5-6 pounds too fat and he does not always gait perfectly out there because he wants to zoom. She likes dark moderate dogs and is nuts about movement. 

I showed anyway - mainly for experience for him + with small entries, you never know. As I expected, my pup kept slipping into a gallop in spots though he was actually pretty good in resuming a trot almost immediately. It still probably looked choppy to the judge. No problem.

Really knew he wasn't getting any recognition in the Winners ring because the judge snapped at him (said "Fine, don't look at me") when he was fixating on the bait in my hand instead of looking at her. She abruptly "dropped his face" (she'd had her hand under his chin) and moved on to the next dog in a "done with you" way. Real charmer.

Did not have a problem with the dog who got WD. 

But the dog who got reserve was fully limping. Enough that the handler knew the dog was limping before they went into the ring. And yes, the judge saw it and had the handler gait the dog a couple extra times to verify what she was looking at. <= The dog was not excused, and ended up getting reserve. 

The dog was dark and moderate - and seemed very much the type the judge favored. But he was limping. It bothered me to no end - even knowing my pup is not the judge's type. 

You have stuff like that happening in the show ring...

Meanwhile people who don't show their dogs think it's all about coats and prancing around the ring... :|

I'm saying it's tough enough to show dogs in conformation. And if you do, you want to stack things in your favor. It gets too expensive otherwise and becomes limiting as far as all you want to do with your dogs! 

And people dabbling in conformation don't realize that. And other thing (again) - just because your dog comes from conformation/show lines and has a stacked pedigree behind him/her... that doesn't make every dog a show pick. There might not be any real show picks in their litters.

A few shows ago, somebody showed up to show her bitch who comes from a conformation breeder. 

Long backstory without specifics = there is a breeder who sells dogs sometimes with full registration to people who want to show. The odd thing is I've seen the dogs that this breeder sends out with handlers. They are very typey and nice looking. But the dogs she sells to these other people with full registration... they are poor quality. Or the owners aren't feeding the dogs right or something. The coats, bone, heads, everything aren't right. 

With the dog this person brought to a show to compete with... the dog had no bone and no coat. I kept glancing over and saw the owner spending A LONG TIME (like up to an hour) grooming her dog, and there was literally nothing to groom. 

She showed the dog - and it was clear she did not have much experience handling. The judge barely looked at her dog.  And I think that happens a lot of the time unless the judge knows the handler... or the handler is experienced enough to show the dogs GOOD POINTS (movement, structure/balance) to get a judge to look past lack of bone and coat. 

Am saying showing dogs is about more than just prancing around the ring, but a lot of people think that's all you do. 

And it isn't just about grooming!

My 14 month old has a young dog coat. Meaning that some field/performance bred dogs in our obedience classes have longer fur on their chest, belly, legs, and trousers. :laugh: His coat will likely come in fully by the time he's 3-4 years old. Right now, what he has is a dense coat. But it's easy to groom.

Right now, I'm spending about 10-20 minutes serious grooming him before shows. That's all. Yes, there's more time spent trimming ears and toes, but that's not right before shows.

That's literally just 10-20 minutes under the dryer after getting him wet to the skin... and then me glossing some conditioning oil over the outside of his coat and calling it all done. 

But according to field people, he has too much coat and would sink in the water because he's too heavy (70 pounds)....


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Oh and speaking for myself.... 

First field private I did - I got to see the guy I was training with take a bird out of crate, tear its wings off so it couldn't fly + broke its legs so it couldn't run...

And before the end of the private, he broke the birds neck to kill it before sending the bird home with us to train with at home.

Training at home, I had to get used to working with a dead animal - despite a lifetime of having it drilled into my head that you are not supposed to touch dead things because of germs. I also couldn't stand the smell of the bird and seeing the dead dangly head. Er... Within a short period of time, it lost its head - which did make things a bit easier as far as me handling it.  

But again - I had a pup whose first and last field private last fall had me losing my cool when my pup decided that not only was he keeping the bird and playing that keep away game, but he was also trying to eat the bird alive. And did get some nibbles in, which actually isn't bad considering this same dog will hawk down whole rabbits at home if he finds them. He apparently thinks I'm not feeding him enough (note, he's 5-6 pounds overweight). 

I don't want to experience that embarrassment (dog playing keep away and eating Eating EATING) again, so we are putting obedience first before trying field again next spring/summer.

The rest though - be aware that field work isn't just throwing bumpers and sticks, running across fields, jumping into lakes.. and getting pictures to show your dog is a duck dog too. The whole concept is basically fake hunting for sport.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Megora said:


> I'm saying it's tough enough to show dogs in conformation. And if you do, you want to stack things in your favor. It gets too expensive otherwise and becomes limiting as far as all you want to do with your dogs!


This is true for field work too! That is what my whole comment started with. Light eyes in conformation may be considered a big fault, but in field work it is seriously at the bottom of the list of things to care about. Field work is hella expensive and you want a dog that is good at its job and breeders stack the odds in their favor. That is what my post was intended to point out, that's all. Or do you think only show people should be afforded such courtesies?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

myluckypenny said:


> This is true for field work too! That is what my whole comment started with. Light eyes in conformation may be considered a big fault, but in field work it is seriously at the bottom of the list of things to care about. Field work is hella expensive and you want a dog that is good at its job and breeders stack the odds in their favor.


Jamie, please check dogs bred by people like Kristen. Check Anney's dogs. 

Check the dogs who have a CH/MH or have CH/SH or even those who have CH/JH's.

Tell me how these people are sacrificing in conformation just so they can get what they want in field. 

Don't go by people who have nothing in conformation and all all or nothing in field. This conversation is about getting dogs who can do both sides, so LOOK at the dogs who cover both ends.

Furthermore, check other breeds - including flat coated retrievers. 

Flat coated retriever ranks up there as a breed where when they have a specialty or major lined up, you see the owner handlers there LOOKING like people you know spend their time outside with their dogs. 

Tell me how these people sacrifice conformation just so they can get what they want in field.

Sometimes gaps are created by one side moving away from the other....

But golden retrievers = one of those cases where it takes two to tango.

It's not just looking at a field bred dog and immediately seeing all the physical problems.

This includes health. 

There's big field lines where I would NOT WANT ANYTHING with certain big kennels behind them simply because I know of dogs who died very early because of cancer. That's even before NCL showed up. 

That also includes temperament. 

That also includes wanting to have dogs who at 1-2 years old can be let off leash and stay close to their owners. 

There is a huge reason why people like me have golden retrievers and NOT labs. But I swear every time people start talking about getting goldens into field, they act like goldens in the show ring look like labs in the show ring....! And they essentially imply this breed should be little hairy labrador retrievers. 

Gotta add since I'm on a roll (and waiting for my boss to come out of a meeting so I can go home) -  I sat and watched labs show yesterday morning. And these were massive but compact (ie short legged) dogs. There was such a huge noted difference between them and the goldens who were trickling in and out of the grooming building nearby. The goldens looked like golden retrievers. They looked like they could go out and be retrievers. But STILL people google-armchair nitpick about conformation bred goldens like there is nothing good about the dogs out there. And that's disrespectful of the breeders who are definitely still producing sporting breed dogs.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Megora said:


> And people dabbling in conformation don't realize that. And other thing (again) - just because your dog comes from conformation/show lines and has a stacked pedigree behind him/her... that doesn't make every dog a show pick. There might not be any real show picks in their litters.
> 
> A few shows ago, somebody showed up to show her bitch who comes from a conformation breeder.
> 
> ...


And I'm not sure if this is directed at me or someone else, but absolutely no where have I stated that I thought conformation was easy. And I have no delusions about my dog, I've been told by numerous people, my handling instructors, a pro handler, and a judge that I had a very nice dog. I am my dogs worst critic, I can point out everything I don't like on him lol. So if you are thinking I just have a pet quality dog from a show breeder that I like bragging about, I can assure you that's not true. I just really prefer to save my money on field events, not shows, much to my breeders chagrin. Again I'm not sure how we came around to this subject haha, nobody here has said conformation is easy.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@myluckypenny - just general statements based on what I've seen elsewhere and have heard and so on. Nothing personal.

Only things I was responding to were the comments that sacrifices need to be made for success.

That and prancing around the ring. 

And the stuff about coat.


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## Ember O (May 21, 2019)

Quick note: I can’t say enough how thankful I am for this forum and the wonderful insight and knowledge I get here! I may not always chime in but I read, research and learn as much as I can!


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I too have had well bred goldens and ones out of the newspaper. One of my newspaper dogs were actually VERY nice I was told it was a test litter before they bred the mom to a registered dog. She was a great dog!! I know nothing about her pedigree no papers were given. 



My first dog when I was 7 was supposedly well bred, many CHs in her pedigree. However, she was EVIL!!! Knowing now what I know, she should NEVER have lived to be 14. She bit (and I mean BITE) everyone sometimes twice. Attacked and almost killed a small dog NOT a golden temperament. This was the 60's the woman who bred was reputable. Then I got my newspaper pups. 



My last newspaper pup was Teddi. She had EVERYTHING wrong with her. Sad the breeders who I know now knew nothing but their heart was truly in the right place just didn't have guidance. Hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, too tall, sweet as sweet can be... died at 10 of cancer. Poor girl never had a day in her life free of pain but you NEVER would have known it. Tough. 



Teddi taught me to find breeders, pay the extra money, stack the deck in my favor. I have 4 breeder dogs now (2 are Labradors) and still with each pup I get, I learn SO much more. To me a well bred dog is a pup who the breeder WANTS to know about for the rest of it's life. Despite what happens to the dog, they will support you emotionally. My Gabby is a wonderfully bred dog but she is a walking disaster. If she can get herself into trouble she does. My breeder has been there the whole time. My new pup comes from a 40 year breeding program, the expertise she brings to the table is incredible. My pup is incredible. These breeders have taught me what they do, what goes in, and what they hoped for. But the support I have from them you can't put a price tag on. 



Yes clearances are a must, and breeding to standard is what a good breeder does (show or field) but that is so much the tip of the iceberg. I absolutely adore my breeders and they dogs that I have gotten have brought me so much joy. I loved my BYB dogs, they are all gone now. They too brought me joy, I have been a long work in progress. I dream of being able to rescues OLD dogs who for whatever reason are no longer in their life long home. However, finances and space at this time keep that a dream. 



Ann


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