# 5-generation pedigree



## canine_mommy

Hello All,

This is my 2nd question on this forum; am a new member and have recently got into the search for my perfect GR puppy. I have been in touch with some breeders and have been studying the clearances and pedigree information they provided. 

2 of the breeders seem pretty reputable, both are listed on the Austin Golden Retriever Club under Board Members. The Dam and Sire in both litters are in good health and champion pedigree. However... when I was going through the k9data pedigree, I found that the Dam and Sire share the same Great Grand Dad... This means just 3 generations back, they are related. So I thought I would eliminate that breeder from my list. When I checked the other breeder, it was the same case; Dam and Sire share the same Great Grand Dad.

So this led me to think how important is the 5-generation pedigree. I would assume it is really important considering how much in-breeding in prevalent in this breed. But if board members of a GR club don't see a problem, then am I giving too much importance to this? 

Please help me out here; I would really like to get a puppy that will be healthy and happy later in his life too. That's the main reason I am going to a breeder; so I know there won't be in-breeding, that genetic diseases will be lesser in chance....

Appreciate your advice and opinions... Thanks


----------



## Bender

Hi there and welcome!

It is not unusual to have common dogs in the pedigree of the parents of a litter. It is usually called 'line breeding' where the common dogs have traits that the breeder wants to keep in the lines. In all honesty all dogs are somewhat 'related' in that way, unless they are completely different breeds and even then sometimes it happens.

What you can do is look on k9data at the 'genetic' information and it will give you the COI of a given litter or dog. That is, how 'inbred' the dog is. Anything under 15 is fine, anything higher might be a problem, might not. It will also tell you the top five ancesters and you can see how much influence each dog has on the litter as well. 

Unless the breeding is very close, like half sister/brother, father/daughter, grandma/grandson, it's likely not a big deal. I would put more 'concern' into the history of hips and other clearances as well as longevity and how long those dogs in the pedigree lived overall - you want to see lots of double digets, and all four grandparents and some great grandparents possibly still alive and well. 

Hope that helps!


----------



## HiTideGoldens

There was just a great post in another thread that explained the difference between in-breeding and line-breeding. Here's the link http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...90327-we-found-our-breeder-5.html#post1326166


----------



## esSJay

Bender said:


> Hi there and welcome!
> 
> It is not unusual to have common dogs in the pedigree of the parents of a litter. It is usually called 'line breeding' where the common dogs have traits that the breeder wants to keep in the lines. In all honesty all dogs are somewhat 'related' in that way, unless they are completely different breeds and even then sometimes it happens.
> 
> What you can do is look on k9data at the 'genetic' information and it will give you the COI of a given litter or dog. That is, how 'inbred' the dog is. Anything under 15 is fine, anything higher might be a problem, might not. It will also tell you the top five ancesters and you can see how much influence each dog has on the litter as well.
> 
> Unless the breeding is very close, like half sister/brother, father/daughter, grandma/grandson, it's likely not a big deal. I would put more 'concern' into the history of hips and other clearances as well as longevity and how long those dogs in the pedigree lived overall - you want to see lots of double digets, and all four grandparents and some great grandparents possibly still alive and well.
> 
> Hope that helps!


Great advice, I just want to add that I wouldn't necessarily say that you want to see 4 great grandparents & beyond still alive - just check the longevity. Some breeders use frozen semen from sires who are already 8 + years old, or have already passed away, so the likelihood of their parents and grandparents still being alive are obviously much lower.


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

I just posted the below article on inbreeding, line breeding and out crossing in the thread 'We found our breeder'. 

Line breeding is done by many experienced breeders and is not a bad thing when the dog that is showing up in the pedigree has positive attributes (health, longevity, temperament and clearances to name a few) and a positive contributor to the breed but also the good and the bad can show up in the offspring.

Ask each potential breeder why they chose to do this particular breeding of their bitch to the sire selected and find out everything possible about each of the dogs in the pedigree (age of death, cause of death, clearances, temperament and also of the litter mates of these dogs if possible).

This article may be informational for you to understand inbreeding, line breeding and out crossing:


Line Breeding vs. Inbreeding
Typical Inbreeding percentages are as follows:

Father/daughter - mother/son - brother/sister -> 25% 
Half-brother/half-sister -> 12.5% 
Uncle/niece - aunt/nephew -> 12.5% 
Cousin -> 6.25%

IN BREEDING
1. parent to offspring (mother-son, father daughter)
2. full siblings (brother-sister, sister-brother)

TIGHT LINE BREEDING
1. half-siblings (half-brother to half-sister) 
2. cousins
3. aunt to nephew, uncle to niece

LINE BREEDING
1. grandparent to grandchild (grandfather-granddaughter, grandmother-grandson). 
2. a common ancestor on both sides of the pedigree within 3rd-4th generation.
(Sounds to me like grandparent or great grandparent to grandchild/great grandchild).


Understanding Line Breeding

There seems to be a vast misunderstanding about line breeding, what it is, why it is done and how it is done. Often one hears laymen and even some who should know better referring to it in derogatory terms and making the assumption that linebreeding is responsible for canine health and temperament problems. So in this article I hope to try to explain a little what responsible and knowledgeable breeders try to do in their breeding programs. 

First let me be clear anything said in this article refers to reputable breeders who breed to develop dogs who are the best examples of breed type (what a certain breed should look like according to the breed's standard or blueprint) and are of sound mind and body. It does not refer to puppy mill or back yard breeders as the sole purpose of those sorts of breeders are to supply the most puppies as cheaply as possible for the most profit. Considerations such as breed type, health and temperament are of no interest to these people and any linebreeding or inbreeding done by them is merely happenstance and economically advantageous. 

In the simplest terms there are three methods used when breeding purebred dogs: outcrossing, inbreeding and linebreeding. 

Outcrossing is the breeding of dogs with no common ancestors, usually within a five generation pedigree. Continual outcrossing is a method that is commonly used by breeders who have no real purpose in breeding dogs or by novice breeders. Occasionally it is employed by experienced breeders to bring in some needed attribute to their line. Though one hears about such things as hybrid vigour when outcrossing, the continual use of this method can be as dangerous as continual inbreeding as you are always bringing new genetic equations to the mix. 

Inbreeding is the breeding of close relatives not separated by more than one generation, i.e, brother to sister, father to daughter. This method is used to concentrate good qualities in the line but may also concentrate bad qualities. Only the most experienced breeders should be willing to attempt this method and be willing to make possible hard decisions with respect to the resulting puppies. Continual inbreeding should not be done. 

Linebreeding is a method that breeders will use to improve upon and try to eliminate structural and health problems from their dogs. It is the breeding together of dogs that have a well bred superior common ancestor who has attributes that the breeder is attempting to reproduce and improve upon in their own dogs. Things such as health, longevity of life, structure, movement and temperament of a dog that one is planning to linebreed on must be taken into account. Linebreeding is an attempt to concentrate the genetic contribution of an outstanding ancestor in the resulting offspring. As well once started one must continue the linebreeding process or all will be for naught. 

For a breeder who is contemplating linebreeding they must first study some basic genetics and learn how dominant and recessive genes affect the outcome of any breeding attempted. They must learn which attributes are dominant and which are recessive. They must also be aware of the genetic health issues for their breed and the mode of inheritance of those diseases. One must then study the dog that one hopes to linebreed on. Unfortunately in dogs it is not possible to know everything genetic about a certain dog as sometimes recessive genes may lie in wait but one can usually have a reasonable understanding of a dog's makeup through the study of pedigrees, both of the ancestors of that dog and his or her's offspring.

Good luck finding your new puppy!


----------



## CarolinaCasey

I wouldn't rule out those breeders based on a line breeding. Especially if they were recommended by the local GR club. I'm sure that they chose to line breed to keep certain traits in their lines. It would definitely be a question to ask... What traits were you hoping to replicate/maintain?

Line breeding, when done correctly can be a great thing. Keep asking questions and doing your homework. You'll find that perfect puppy in no time!


----------



## Bender

esSJay said:


> Great advice, I just want to add that I wouldn't necessarily say that you want to see 4 great grandparents & beyond still alive - just check the longevity. Some breeders use frozen semen from sires who are already 8 + years old, or have already passed away, so the likelihood of their parents and grandparents still being alive are obviously much lower.



True, but it's also good to look at the ages in any case, of those generations and so on. Some lines do carry early cancer where a lot of dogs die at five but may have had a litter or two first, or they've had siblings die young, or other problems... k9data is good for doing that sort of 'legwork'.


----------



## canine_mommy

Thank you all for your inputs. This forum is really helpful 

Bender & EeneyMeanyMineyMo,
Thanks for the explanation. Now I understand the difference between in-breeding and line-breeding. I guess the one being done in these cases is Line-Breeding, which is probably being done on purpose.

I will talk to the breeders and find out why it's being done, as in if they are wanting specific traits, like Carolina Casey suggested. 

I have started looking at the Vertical Pedigree with Longevity info on k9data. Looks good for the Dam (10+) while Sire is around 8.5-11yrs, which is also ok I guess.

COI is below 15% for 1 breeder's dogs. While the 2nd breeder has 20% on the Dam and 30% on Sire. Sire is Hytree's Ryder who is supposed to be a very sought after stud, but the 30% COI is now making me a bit nervous, after reading Bender's post.


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

You should know the COMBINED pedigree's COI as well of the puppy you are considering - not just the sire & dam's COI. The breeder can give you the link to the test breeding (if they had input this before deciding to breed the sire & dam) so that you can see what the COI will be of the puppy. Not all COI's above 15% are considered undesirable. Certain reasons why a breeder may have line bred on a particular dog showing a high COI. It is also the top 5 contributor's in the 10 -12 generation that you should look at in the combined pedigree. 

Speaking with each breeder and addressing your concerns with them is advisable as you will be dealing with them not only with the purchase of your puppy but also down the road, throughout the lifetime of your golden. Good luck!


----------



## canine_mommy

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> You should know the COMBINED pedigree's COI as well of the puppy you are considering - not just the sire & dam's COI. The breeder can give you the link to the test breeding (if they had input this before deciding to breed the sire & dam) so that you can see what the COI will be of the puppy. Not all COI's above 15% are considered undesirable. Certain reasons why a breeder may have line bred on a particular dog showing a high COI. It is also the top 5 contributor's in the 10 -12 generation that you should look at in the combined pedigree.
> 
> Speaking with each breeder and addressing your concerns with them is advisable as you will be dealing with them not only with the purchase of your puppy but also down the road, throughout the lifetime of your golden. Good luck!


Got it. So I checked the test breeding link and combined COI is 11% on 1 litter and other litter is 18% (one where the Sire has 30% COI). I have emailed the breeders with my concerns; waiting on their reply. 

I tried looking at the top 5 contributors, but I am not sure how to read it... Should there be less number of common contributors in Dam's, Sire's and Puppy's COI?

For e.g. there are 2 common top contributors out of 5 in the Dam's and Sire's COI. Is that a good thing or bad?

I am sorry if I am asking questions which may have been discussed previously. I tried searching for it in the forum but couldn't find it.

Thanks...


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

This article might help you better understand the COI and it's contributors in each dogs top 5 as listed & the relationship:

Relation

Perhaps posting the k9data links for each test breeding would help? Just a thought.


----------



## canine_mommy

eeneymeanymineymo,

yes of course  these are the two I was looking at:

Pedigree: Ryder x Kenzie 
Pedigree: laylacuervo

Thanks for the link.


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

Looking at the Ryder X Kenzie litter -

The pups COI lists Thunder as the top contributor with 5.56% of the 16.30%. Longevity of the top five dogs listed is Thunder (10),Sammy (11),Aruba(12),Bear(12),and Ace (12) yrs. old. 

Looking at Kenzie's COI - top contributor is Piper who died at age 5. I would ask what did she die of. But then has Casey (15), Kirby (11), Sammy (12) and Aruba (12). Could of been an accident or whelping issue - not sure but do ask. Ryder has Thunder(10) as the top contributer then Ace(12), Sammy(11),Kidd (11),& Bear (12).

Will post on Layla X Cuervo next.


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

Layla X Cuervo pup is 8.53% with Kirby (11), Sammy (11), Teddy (7),Aruba (12) and Bear (12).

Layla is 8.87% with Sammy (11), Aruba(12), Zap(11), Ashley (?), Teddy (7).
Cuervo - 14.33% has Bear (12), Kirby(11), Teddy(7), Sammy (11) and Charlie(12).


----------



## canine_mommy

wow thanks a lot for listing this out... I think I kinda understand how to read this better now. So top COI contributors will be the ones whose attributes will be most likely taken forward. So checking their OFA/CERF/longevity will help... I am looking into another litter too: Vertical pedigree: Carly and Blue 
I will try reading this similar to the way you listed out for Ryder x Kenzie.


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

canine_mommy said:


> wow thanks a lot for listing this out... I think I kinda understand how to read this better now. So top COI contributors will be the ones whose attributes will be most likely taken forward. So checking their OFA/CERF/longevity will help... I am looking into another litter too: Vertical pedigree: Carly and Blue
> I will try reading this similar to the way you listed out for Ryder x Kenzie.


Yes - 'top 5 are the ones most likely whose attributes are taken forward'. Do check OFA/CERF and the longevity & hip pedigrees on each dog in the pedigree and ask questions about those dogs when you might see an early death or siblings that do not clear on certain clearances.

Let's see if you can do the Carly X Blue one yourself!


----------



## Sunkota

This could be debated forever. There are very successful breeders that have very different approaches to breeding.

For a combined COI - impossible to say what is the "best". 11% is pretty common, some breeders would feel 18% is getting a bit high. Of course some breeders routinely do 30% plus so they would think 18 is low and others are shooting for less than 5 so they think 11 is high.

For top contributors you want to see who is top on the pups pedigree (combined sire and dam). There are some that you will see very frequently in pedigrees depending on whether it is a field or conformation breeding. In conformation the most frequent is probably Misty Morn Sunset, followed by True Bear, maybe Teddy Bear, etc. so seeing those at the top is not unusual in low COI breedings. High COI breedings usually have a more recent dog at the top. I pay close attention to the top few especially if it is a higher COI (say 15 plus). If I know that top contributor carried a trait I feel is unacceptable I cross the breeding off.


----------



## Ljilly28

I learned the hard way that a serious outcross with a very low COI has its own dangers. It is easier to know what you are getting when a breeder has studied her lines for years and years and knows what is there genetically. It's anit-intuitive, but outcross doesnt correlate with healthy.


----------

