# Too young for a choke chain?



## Murphysmom (Nov 2, 2009)

Murphy will be 3 months old in a few days, and I'm wondering if he's too young for a choke chain just for training reasons. When we go for our walks now, it's like he's always trying to run full speed ahead all the time. So I'm wondering if it's too early and I should just bear with it or whether I should try it out.


----------



## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2009)

Personally, I would try something like an EZ walk harness or a halti.
Timber was a real pain to walk - like Murphey, pulling ahead - and then I got an EZ Walk harness.
All it took was a couple of corrections when we first went out and that was it.
I love walking him now. 
He's 72lbs and strong but the harness makes walking so easy.


----------



## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

Instead of a choke chain, I would suggest trying something like a head collar. Gentle Leader makes great head collars and so does Halti. When the dog tries to pull, it turns the dog's head back, which gives you much more control of the dog. It's much more effective and safer than a choke chain.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'd suggest working on training polite leash behaviors rather than resorting to a more aggressive piece of equipment.

Failing that, the head halters are a much more humane way to work with a puller.


----------



## Murphysmom (Nov 2, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> I'd suggest working on training polite leash behaviors rather than resorting to a more aggressive piece of equipment.


What should I be doing? I'm still pretty new at this so I don't really know how to train him not to pull.


----------



## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

A dog is never old enough IMO to use one. There are so many more safe and positive tools out there for dog owners to use, I wouldn't dream of using one on either of my dogs. Many people use them the wrong way and they negatively impact the dogs throat/esophagus/muscles/etc.


----------



## vertiman (Jun 17, 2009)

Training classes are really important, you should find a class near you and they'll teach you and your puppy how to walk.

You definitely won't regret going to classes, you'll both feel very rewarded as your see your puppys progress, and your puppy will be able to understand what you want from them.

I agree with everyone else in the thread though, choke chains are bad. We use a Sporn (it's similar to a harness) and it works great.

A great way to tell if you're enrolled in a good training program is to ask the trainer if they use choke chains during training. If they answer is yes, then you should turn and run! They're a last resort training tool.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Murphysmom said:


> What should I be doing? I'm still pretty new at this so I don't really know how to train him not to pull.


Have you thought about doing a basic obedience class? It can be a great place to teach him how not to pull around all kinds of distractions, and a good trainer can help you with your timing and communication skills.

But to sketch out a basic method:

Work with him in 5-10 minute sessions, several times a day, and you should see some really good foundation work laid. You want to reward him for paying attention to you, and you want to make sure he doesn't get reinforced for not paying attention. Short sessions help keep up interest.

If he goes flying out ahead, just stop and start walking in the other direction. You can make whistling or squeaking noises to generate excitement and interest as you do so. The noises (as well as shuffling your feet) can help keep his interest up if he lags.

If he drags you towards a dog or a person, make sure he does not get rewarded for this behavior by getting the interaction he wants. If he really wants to greet someone and is pulling, just stop in place. Eventually he should stop trying to drag you there and will offer another behavior, like a sit (particularly if you've trained a sit). Once he gives the desired behavior, you can start moving again. The first few times you do this, you'll feel a little silly, but you'll show him that pulling=stop and behaving=go.

If he'll take it amid all the distractions, reward him with food and praise when he's giving you a loose leash and/or his attention. Timing is crucial. If he's chewing a leaf and ignoring you but perks up and comes to you when you make squeaky noises, treat him right as he gets to your side. It helps to be holding a treat in your hand on the side he's coming to so you can reward him without reaching across yourself or bending down more than necessary. Don't use commands like "come" or his name when you're being ignored. You don't want commands to be associated with ignoring. That's why you make noises are shuffle your feet when you're trying to get his attention but aren't sure you will.

It's also generally good practice not to try to attract him with the treat, but rather to have it come out of nowhere when he offers the behavior you want on his own (even coincidentally). Luring with the treat is OK, especially at first, but you want to get away from it as soon as possible, since you're not trying to teach him that he should behave when you have food, but rather that behaving results in sporadic and unexpected rewards. Give a happy "yes" or a "good boy" along with the treat.

Be generous and random with rewards. Good behavior should receive consistent reinforcement with praise, increasingly sporadic reinforcement with food, and periodic jackpots of treats and praise parties. These methods will help make food, praise, and other kinds of rewards (i.e., getting to greet another dog) meld together in the dog's mind so that your praise carries extra weight when you move past treats.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

PS - Class is FUN. Working together with your dog and getting in sync is surprisingly rewarding. I pooh-poohed classes with my first dog and was able to train him well just by reading, but I've gone to classes since then, and it's been wonderful. The dogs have a blast, and I get a lot better at communicating with them. It's also a fantastic environment for teaching self-control and socialization because they get to see lots of dogs that aren't there for play.


----------



## Murphysmom (Nov 2, 2009)

Thank you for all the helpful tips! I want to put him in an obedience class, but he has to be 20 weeks to start them so I have to wait for now.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

vertiman said:


> A great way to tell if you're enrolled in a good training program is to ask the trainer if they use choke chains during training. If they answer is yes, then you should turn and run! They're a last resort training tool.


I don't really agree with that, and I don't use a choke chain. I wouldn't sign up for a class that *required* choke chains, it's not a tool that I use so wouldn't want to be forced to use one.

But I probably also wouldn't sign up for a class that did not allow choke chains either. That shows that the instructor isn't willing to be flexible with different teaching methods and acknowledge that different methods work better for different dogs/handlers.

The classes I would be looking for are the classes that give you the option to use them if that's what you want and what works for you.


----------



## Daisy and Rita (Aug 31, 2009)

Daisy pulled like crazy on an ordinary lead, so I changed over to the full harness, and I wish I had used it from day one!! it really has made an enormous difference, and I have more control over her i.e not jumping up people, not strangulating herself and making those awful throat noises!

I really don't think choker chain collars are good for any dog, they are painful if used wrong and your dog will never look forward to a walk, I personally hope you will not use one :-( Try a harness first 

p.s I'm very very suprised the puppy classes you found won't allow your pup until 20 weeks old! Maybe you should look around for another class. The one's I found allow all pups from 10 weeks old onwards so long as they have had all their vax's. They all suggested the younger the better for socialising.


----------



## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Why go straight to obedience classes? Tess will start puppy class in January, and after that I'll take obedience. Or is he in puppy class now?


----------



## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

I would try a gentle leader, years ago a choke chain seemed to be the only option (10/11 years ago)and I used them for my GSP which was recommended by a police dog trainer at the time who was doing 1 on 1 training with Nybble (GSP) and also for Jade my Great Dane it took training for me to use it properly, and they worked great if Jade went on lead now I would still use it as she could have the lead thrown over her back and still walk to heal, unless another dog barked at her or Honey so then a quick flick of the wrist (and you do know how to do that) would avert any trouble.
Coming on 10 years I had Police dog trainers come to the house to train Honey as she was not able to go on road walks until 15 months they recommended the gentle leader and although she was not keen at first now it works great, also once she has got her initial madness out of her system we can put her on a flat collar for the rest of the time.
Things move on so please don't put your pup on a choke chain.

Sorry havent read all of this thread so apolagies if this information has been posted, I will read through it all and then perhaps edit.


----------



## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

Eeek just read 3 months old no way should Murphy be on a choke chain.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Murphysmom said:


> Thank you for all the helpful tips! I want to put him in an obedience class, but he has to be 20 weeks to start them so I have to wait for now.


That's weird. Most places have a puppy kindergarten for younger dogs.


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Wonder if Laura would know of a puppy-K in you area since you're in Michigan. OOOOHHHH..... L-A-U-R-A............ You'd have a blast and little one would get some important socialization and a headstart on heeling and basic manners.


----------



## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

For Hank I've been using the Sporn no-pull harness with great results. I bought it at PetsMart. I tried the Ez no-pull harness and Gentle Leader, neither worked with him. It is such a pleasure to take walks now.

http://www.sporn.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=SPUS3


----------



## Murphysmom (Nov 2, 2009)

Ok I definitely won't be using a choke chain thanks to all this great info I got from all of you. The only reason I haven't put him in a puppy class is because I was told that it's basically just a socialization class, and he gets TONS of socialization. I hang out with a lot of dog people. :

If I'm wrong and they will actually start teaching us things in puppy class please feel free to let me know. Only one of my friends has done any type of class so I don't have a lot to go on.


----------



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Loisiana said:


> But I probably also wouldn't sign up for a class that did not allow choke chains either. That shows that the instructor isn't willing to be flexible with different teaching methods and acknowledge that different methods work better for different dogs/handlers.


Or it shows that the trainers are passionate in their belief that choke chains can be dangerous. I don't allow choke chains in my classes, yet I do understand that different *people* prefer different techniques. How can I promote positive, reward based training if I have a couple students in each class who choose to leash-pop their dogs on choke chains and I stand by and let them? Some people think smacking the dog works best. So if I'm going to be an open minded, flexible trainer, do I have to allow that, too? It's all about where you draw the line.


----------



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Murphysmom said:


> Ok I definitely won't be using a choke chain thanks to all this great info I got from all of you. The only reason I haven't put him in a puppy class is because I was told that it's basically just a socialization class, and he gets TONS of socialization. I hang out with a lot of dog people. :
> 
> If I'm wrong and they will actually start teaching us things in puppy class please feel free to let me know. Only one of my friends has done any type of class so I don't have a lot to go on.


In the puppy class I teach, we only do a very little bit of dog/dog social time. The rest of the time it's urban socialization with new experiences and starting basic obedience -- response to name, coming when called, sit, down, play skills w/ humans, not jumping up on people, etc. That's the class for 7-16 wk old pups!


----------



## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

_The rest of the time it's urban socialization with new experiences and starting basic obedience -- response to name, coming when called, sit, down, play skills w/ humans, not jumping up on people, etc_

That's what I've been told to expect, too! And also bite inhibition, nutrition and tons of other stuff, plus of course the playing with other puppies.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

The puppy classes I've been too gave about fifteen minutes to play and socialization with the other pups and devoted the rest of the time to training basics and getting used to strange objects.

Learning self control around other puppies was one of the most invaluable parts and the reason I continue to go with new pups even though I have the class essentially memorized at this point.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Or it shows that the trainers are passionate in their belief that choke chains can be dangerous. I don't allow choke chains in my classes, yet I do understand that different *people* prefer different techniques. How can I promote positive, reward based training if I have a couple students in each class who choose to leash-pop their dogs on choke chains and I stand by and let them? Some people think smacking the dog works best. So if I'm going to be an open minded, flexible trainer, do I have to allow that, too? It's all about where you draw the line.


I'm with you. The fact that chokes and prongs are not allowed during classes at my favorite center is an indication to me about the real philosophy of the trainers. I know they're focused on creative, positive solutions, and I really don't want to be in a class where the person next to me is manhandling their dog.


----------



## beccacc31 (Aug 17, 2009)

Kevin and his ex-wife used a choke chain on Mitchell 14 years ago. We would never do that today. I actually don't like the idea of using any kind of collar for walking and prefer to use a harness. Mitchell was diagnosed with Larangel Paralysis (spelling ?) about 5 years ago and they told us it could have been partially caused by the use of a choke collar when he was a puppy. I felt so bad that it could had possibly been prevented. What I will say is... Times were different back then and that is how things were done. Thank goodness we have all evolved!


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Or it shows that the trainers are passionate in their belief that choke chains can be dangerous. I don't allow choke chains in my classes, yet I do understand that different *people* prefer different techniques. How can I promote positive, reward based training if I have a couple students in each class who choose to leash-pop their dogs on choke chains and I stand by and let them? Some people think smacking the dog works best. So if I'm going to be an open minded, flexible trainer, do I have to allow that, too? It's all about where you draw the line.


For clarification--are you implying that you cannot train a dog positively with a choke collar?  If so, I would disagree. It is not the 'tool' but the user. And from that post asking about positive training, I think the general consensus was that positive trainers emphasize positive training, but that doesn't mean they don't give corrections ever.

And I would go further to say, yes, a choke collar is a bad thing if your dog is continuously choking himself and pulling on it. It is bad if you are giving corrections left and right, IMO. But again, for me, this is not a black and white issue of the collar being either detrimental or not. It is not the act of using it, but how you choose to do so.

And I would tend to agree with Louisiana.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> For clarification--are you implying that you cannot train a dog positively with a choke collar?  If so, I would disagree. It is not the 'tool' but the user. And from that post asking about positive training, I think the general consensus was that positive trainers emphasize positive training, but that doesn't mean they don't give corrections ever.
> 
> And I would go further to say, yes, a choke collar is a bad thing if your dog is continuously choking himself and pulling on it. It is bad if you are giving corrections left and right, IMO. But again, for me, this is not a black and white issue of the collar being either detrimental or not. It is not the act of using it, but how you choose to do so.
> 
> And I would tend to agree with Louisiana.


It comes down to the definition of positive training. Many of us use it to mean a training style that does not rely on correction for teaching or proofing behavior. In that case, a chain collar would not be part of a positive training.

If you're talking about training that is generally positive but still relies on correction, then that's a different definition of "positive training."


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> It comes down to the definition of positive training. Many of us use it to mean a training style that does not rely on correction for teaching or proofing behavior. In that case, a chain collar would not be part of a positive training.
> 
> If you're talking about training that is generally positive but still relies on correction, then that's a different definition of "positive training."


I would say that your idea is dependent on 1) What you mean by 'rely' on and 2) Again, how the choke collar is used (is popping the only way you can use one? I would say no...)

But it really isn't worth arguing as everybody's opinion is varied and no one's per se is more correct. I respect that Steph doesn't let people use choke collars (its her choice), but I don't think that using one automatically means you are not a positive based trainer. And further, I tend to agree with Louisiana that I would prefer a trainer who is more open-minded about various training techniques (whether it is letting me use a clicker in a primarily choke chain class or letting me use a choker in a clicker class).

Here is that thread on positivie training. http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=66413&highlight=positive+training

---

To the OP, I do think you would be happiest with a no-pull harness as it is. Sorry for the thread hijack, just wanted to throw out the alternative opinion that a choke collar is not inherently bad.


----------



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I think the majority of people think and agree that positive based training uses as few aversives as possible. A choke chain or pinch collar is considered an aversive, whether you are positive based or negative based in your training. If you don't consider it an aversive, what do you consider it?


----------



## acritzer (Aug 23, 2009)

Do dogs "graduate" from using something like a gentle leader? I am not familiar with these at all. Do you eventually walk with a normal collar, or are you stuck with it?

I trained our 6 year old on a choke collar and believe they get a bad rap overall. Probably because of people that don't understand how to use them. Obviously there are alternatives out there, but used correctly a choke collar is fine. Our golden learned after 7-10 sessions and now walks just fine with a normal collar. If she gets excited a very quick pull and a call of her name will get her back in line very easily.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

My PK is for puppies 7-20 weeks old. The format: I briefly ask each owner how their week with the puppy has been, which prompts a little Q&A (during this time the puppies are either lying quietly of politely visiting with their neighbor). Then a brief discussion of the evening's lessons. Then hands on work with the puppies (about 25 minutes). Then the evening's "extra" (grooming, medical information, etc) Then a 20 minute after class "recess" - puppies are taken of collars and leads and allowed to freee play with toys and each other.
I DO teach the proper use of "choke" collars. (When used properly they are an excellent communication tool and are not "choking" or physically harming the dog in any way.) I DO use them on all of my own dogs, right from the start. My dogs learn from the get go to walk politely on a loose lead, and are never banged up, jerked, or choked by their collars, and I start them on "chokes".


----------



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

acritzer said:


> Do dogs "graduate" from using something like a gentle leader? I am not familiar with these at all. Do you eventually walk with a normal collar, or are you stuck with it?


If your goal is to wean off of it, you certainly can. I have many clients who do, and some who prefer to use it for life as a management tool that gets them out of having to actually train the dog not to pull.

GL + training will eventually get you a polite walker on a flat collar. GL alone will get you a better walker when the GL is ON, but that's usually about it.

I usually recommend that people stick with the GLs through adolesence and then work a phase where it's still on the dog's face, but not hooked up. Once the dog walks great that way, too, then try taking it off.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

acritzer said:


> Do dogs "graduate" from using something like a gentle leader? I am not familiar with these at all. Do you eventually walk with a normal collar, or are you stuck with it?
> 
> I trained our 6 year old on a choke collar and believe they get a bad rap overall. Probably because of people that don't understand how to use them. Obviously there are alternatives out there, but used correctly a choke collar is fine. Our golden learned after 7-10 sessions and now walks just fine with a normal collar. If she gets excited a very quick pull and a call of her name will get her back in line very easily.


I would only use a halter as a transitional piece of equipment for a dog who might hurt himself on a buckle collar. The idea is to graduate to a dog who is gentlemanly on the leash. My dogs are raised and trained on buckle collars.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> I would say that your idea is dependent on 1) What you mean by 'rely' on and 2) Again, how the choke collar is used (is popping the only way you can use one? I would say no...)
> 
> But it really isn't worth arguing as everybody's opinion is varied and no one's per se is more correct. I respect that Steph doesn't let people use choke collars (its her choice), but I don't think that using one automatically means you are not a positive based trainer. And further, I tend to agree with Louisiana that I would prefer a trainer who is more open-minded about various training techniques (whether it is letting me use a clicker in a primarily choke chain class or letting me use a choker in a clicker class).
> 
> ...


When I say "rely on," I mean to use as part of the teaching and proofing process. Some trainers take "positive" to mean "no corrections ever." That kind of "positive" trainer would never use a choke at all.

Even in a program that's only 98% positive, I still don't see where a choke fits in, unless you're talking about one of those fine chains they use in shows but not for training.

Any class where jerking on the chain as a "correction" is part of the normal course of events wouldn't be "positive" in my book. You might still consider yourself still "positive" if you only relied on those corrections infrequently, which is why I said it was essentially a semantic argument according to what your definition of "positive" is.


----------



## Minnesota Rosie (Jul 28, 2009)

Murphysmom said:


> Ok I definitely won't be using a choke chain thanks to all this great info I got from all of you. The only reason I haven't put him in a puppy class is because I was told that it's basically just a socialization class, and he gets TONS of socialization. I hang out with a lot of dog people. :
> 
> If I'm wrong and they will actually start teaching us things in puppy class please feel free to let me know. Only one of my friends has done any type of class so I don't have a lot to go on.


I took Rosie to a puppy class and found it to be very helpful. The socialization part was great, and I got some very good training tips, too. Plus, now that we're a part of the obedience school, we can call them any time with questions or advice. I'm sure we didn't learn anything that we couldn't have found on-line or in a book, but for me, it was helpful to learn straight from the experts, and to watch their techniques.


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

fostermom said:


> I think the majority of people think and agree that positive based training uses as few aversives as possible. A choke chain or pinch collar is considered an aversive, whether you are positive based or negative based in your training. If you don't consider it an aversive, what do you consider it?


One reason why I like choke collars because the tightening and loosening of one is communicating to the dog what I want--and no, it need not be aversive in all cases. If you teach it right and the dog feels the collar tighten, then they know they need to back up and not pull. IMO this can be better than a flat which is more static with movement and not fluid. Doesn't communicate that as well.

I pair the tightening and loosening of a choke collar with positive things so it is not itself a negative or a forceful thing. However, it gives me the option when my dog chooses not to do something to step in and reinforce it because the dog has been conditioned that if I pull up on the leash (again, need not be a harsh or a pop), she sits. Whether or not that is really aversive depends. Scout's a pretty tough girl, and isn't phased by a gentle pull up on the leash. (shoot, she didn't even blink when she got a microchip in)


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

GoldenSail said:


> One reason why I like choke collars because the tightening and loosening of one is communicating to the dog what I want--and no, it need not be aversive in all cases. If you teach it right and the dog feels the collar tighten, then they know they need to back up and not pull. IMO this can be better than a flat which is more static with movement and not fluid. Doesn't communicate that as well.
> 
> I pair the tightening and loosening of a choke collar with positive things so it is not itself a negative or a forceful thing. However, it gives me the option when my dog chooses not to do something to step in and reinforce it because the dog has been conditioned that if I pull up on the leash (again, need not be a harsh or a pop), she sits. Whether or not that is really aversive depends. Scout's a pretty tough girl, and isn't phased by a gentle pull up on the leash. (shoot, she didn't even blink when she got a microchip in)


My dogs respond to the "zip" sound of the collar sliding, and rarely do they even feel the collar "tight". They walk on a loose lead, and as such, the "choke" collar is even looser on their necks than a buckle type collar.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

My view is if you are teaching a class or own a training center it is certainly your right to not allow certain tools to be used within that class. But I don't see that as being a class that I would be interested in taking. If the policy were "let's try other methods first to see if they work" then that would be different. But to say that a certain tool is never allowed in any circumstance is a view that I would not want to train under. IMO, pretty much any training tool can be used in an appropriate way, and any tool can be misused. It's not so much what the tool is, it's how it's used that makes the difference. I wouldn't want to throw out an effective tool for someone just because others misuse it.


----------



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Loisiana said:


> I wouldn't want to throw out an effective tool for someone just because others misuse it.


Choke chains work b/c the dog decides to work "our way" to avoid them. The addition of a choke chain "correction" -- no matter how slight -- from the noise of the chain to a subtle tightening, to a whallop by the handler at the other end --- they all equate to positive punishment or else it wouldn't decrease unwanted behavior. And yes, I do understand that anyone can misuse anything, but that doesn't change that choke chains are still positive punishment no matter HOW you use it. While I do use corrections, positive punishment makes up the absolute smallest portion of my training program. As such, I don't see how I could ethically say, "Sure, go ahead and use one!"

By not allowing them, I'm asking people to make a concerted effort to learn a different way of training, one that I passionately believe in. If they *prefer* choke chain training, there are certainly plenty of places where they can find that.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

My dogs are shown, and as such are on fine chokes, so that is what I use. On my dogs. as I said, I teach people how to properly use them, just as I do the other tools available to them. I don't forbid them.


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Never mind.


----------



## Shadowboxer (Aug 21, 2009)

My puppy is 4 months old and was pulling on the leash like crazy. We just got the Halti two weeks ago...and man it is a MIRACLE WORKER. He's been a perfect gentleman since. He still tries to get it off at first, but once we get going; he's great.


----------



## Murphysmom (Nov 2, 2009)

I am so very sorry to have started a debate. I really didn't mean any harm, just had some questions. Thank you everyone for all your answers!


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Murphysmom said:


> I am so very sorry to have started a debate. I really didn't mean any harm, just had some questions. Thank you everyone for all your answers!


Don't sweat it. The choke/prong/positive/aversive debate is one of our favorites.


----------



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Murphysmom said:


> I am so very sorry to have started a debate. I really didn't mean any harm, just had some questions. Thank you everyone for all your answers!


Debate isn't a bad thing when people can remain civil, as we have here. All you're seeing is the different opinions of people who are very passionate in what they belive. Nuthin' wrong with that! Good luck with whatever method you decide to use!


----------

