# going outside with 8 week old pup



## CaraC (Aug 15, 2012)

We brought home our 8 week old puppy on Saturday and he is doing well so far (minus the biting, chewing, barking, etc- normal puppy stuff). My question is around taking him outside at all. He has had his first set of parvo shots at 6 weeks and is set to get his next one in a week and a half. We have a grassy area on our patio that he uses to go pee and poo but we haven't taken him outside beyond that. I am worried about him getting parvo or getting into something. What are the limits on taking him anywhere? Should he not be allowed outside until his 2nd set of shots or is walking around a little ok? Thanks!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Do you have a high number of parvo cases where you live? I know not everyone limits their puppy's activities before all the shots are given; however, in my area of the country, the vet we use said for any new puppy we might bring home we'd need to keep him/her from public areas due to a high incidence of parvo cases. I'd discuss this with your vet to make the best determination for your pup.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

You can carry him anywhere you want. You can also let him walk on concrete and don't let him meet strange dogs or sniff poop.


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## CaraC (Aug 15, 2012)

We live in Seattle in a very wooded area. Our neighborhood is nice (typical suburb) and ther are a lot of dogs around, I just don't want to take the risk. I just feel so bad for him because he can only play in the house and he is high energy and it would do him good to go outside and play but I just don't think there is anywhere safe enough. We have a vet apt. in a week and a half so I guess I could talk to the vet at that time.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I am very paranoid about our Rebel Rose - I will not let her socialize with other dogs (other than extended family dogs that I KNOW have been vaccinated and are older) until she has her last set of vaccinations at 12 weeks. She will have the rabies shot at 15 weeks. I know I will not take her to any pet store or even the neighborhood until she has all her shots. I may extend it to friends after the 12 weeks set.

Since my Rose is a true Rebel (named after Rebel - Rose O'Neal Greenhow) she is quite curious about the neighborhood. We are working with her in our yard for now. She has 2 acres to discover. She tends to have a stare competition with the cows in the field above us and the birds. She loves bird feeding time. As soon as I put the bird seed out all the birds fly to it. She enjoys watching them. And then it's the deer. We have a heard of about 20 deer in our back yard. Gosh she think she can take them on one-handed! I do try to keep her away from them since they can carry lots of diseases.


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## Discoverer (Feb 3, 2011)

The time between 8 and 12 weeks are critical for puppy development and not having any dogs to play with can have a negative imprint on his future life. I personally think the whole concept of "keep off until all shots done" is a little aggravated. The risk of not being properly socialized by isolation from other dogs is much higher than a risk to catch a virus. Most of the dogs you'll meet in neighborhood are vaccinated and you can always ask their owners and don't let them get close if uncertain for any reason. Just follow the simple safety rules - don't let the pup sniff other dog's waste (unfortunately not all owners clean after their dogs), keep away of SPCA locations or any other areas where stray dogs may present, don't let your pup play with a stick, which seems to be in a mouth of another dog, etc. However the deers and other wild life is a whole different story. It would totally make sense to avoid any close contacts with wild animals. 
The puppy class is a great place to meet other pups and people, I won't pass that one.


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

Nice to meet you :wave:. This is one of those difficult decisions many of us have struggled with when our puppies are so young. I've discussed this with my vet and other people I trust and respect. I think you could second guess yourself whichever way you decide.

Here is a link to an article that might be useful when making your decision. I lean toward giving them the most experiences that they can safely be exposed to in these critically important early weeks.

http://www.northernsuburbsdogclub.org/Archive_Pages/2010_02_01/Puppy-Rule-12.pdf


Hopes this helps !


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## ncpistol (Jul 20, 2012)

I should be getting my golden late Novenber (parents were bred July 29th). I broke out the old books and sure enough it says until all the shots are complete to stay away from heavy dog populated areas such as fire hydrants and puppy parks. It also states to bring them by things such as outdoor strip malls and other populated human areas to get them socialized with people. Keep us informed because Ill be using this same advice in December. GL!!!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Personally I wouldn't have him around any strange dogs or anywhere outside that other dogs might have pottied. I have seen a few horrible cases of parvo to ever attempt that myself. Both my pups were not socially inept because they didn't socialize until they had their final shots.
Of course the choice is yours.


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## dezymond (May 3, 2012)

I had Maverick enrolled in puppy class by 10 weeks, a day after his second shot. If it wasn't for that puppy class he probably would've never met any other dogs during that period. After that 3rd shot though I started taking him to more "dog places" and letting him walk; regular parks, petsmart, downtown, etc. And once he got his 4th shot I went to the dog park the day after.

Maverick has been well socialized and has no illnesses whatsoever. Like Discoverer, I feel the same way about the shots. Yes there are chances of getting sick, but I found socialization to be more critical, especially since I plan on Maverick becoming a therapy dog. I'm glad I exposed him to so many different things as a young pup, he doesn't seem scared of anything, but just wary of big dogs and small children that like to scream and run.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

If you decide to take the conservative approach with your pup, you might consider asking friends with healthy/vaccinated dogs to come to your place for play time and socialization. There are many trainers who are willing to do at home sessions before puppy receives all the shots.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Since her 12 weeks shots will be actually at 13 weeks I will probably ask the vet to do the rabies at the same time, if they feel it is OK. That would save me two weeks. Our Rose goes around my sister in law's dogs and step son's dog. She is not isolated completely. I know how they take care of their dogs so it is safe.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

goldy1 said:


> Nice to meet you :wave:. This is one of those difficult decisions many of us have struggled with when our puppies are so young. I've discussed this with my vet and other people I trust and respect. I think you could second guess yourself whichever way you decide.
> 
> Here is a link to an article that might be useful when making your decision. I lean toward giving them the most experiences that they can safely be exposed to in these critically important early weeks.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the link - happy to say they are all checked. Only one "fake" sound; I introduced her to shooting sounds on the computer, we will see how she does on labor day at the hunting cabin with real shooting sounds.


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## tomw (Jul 9, 2012)

It is a difficult question to answer and one that each of us has to come to grips with. We all love our puppies and want to protect them as much as we can. Yet, socialization is critical during this 8--15 week period. I decided to keep Lacie in our backyard and front yard. I would only walk her on our street by going down about four houses, turning around and coming home. I only allowed her to come in contact with about three dogs, all of which I knew had their shots. Lacie just got her final set of shots, including her rabies shot. I will now feel comfortable taking her out to more public places come next week.
I think a responsible puppy parent has to use common sense and caution as to where and with what other dogs they allow their puppy to come in contact with. I would not, however, isolate a puppy from other doggie contact from 8--14 or so weeks. That impact negatively on their development to a large degree.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Here are a few links on puppy socialization.

Socialization With People | Dog Star Daily Puppy Socialization Dr. Ian Dunbar

As a rule of thumb, your puppy needs to meet at least a hundred people before he is three months old. Since your puppy is still too young to venture out on the streets, you'll need to start inviting people to your home right away. Basically, you'll need to have lots of puppy parties and invite friends over to handfeed your pup and train him for you.

RK Anderson letter on socialization
To take full advantage of this early special learning period, many veterinarians recommend that new owners take their puppies to puppy socialization classes, beginning at 8 to 9 weeks of age. At this age they should have (and can be required to have) received a minimum of their first series of vaccines for protection against infectious diseases. This provides the basis for increasing immunity by further repeated exposure to these antigens either through natural exposure in small doses or artificial exposure with vaccines during the next 8 to 12 weeks. In addition the owner and people offering puppy socialization should take precautions to have the environment and the participating puppies as free of natural exposure as possible by good hygiene and caring by careful instructors and owners.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> Since her 12 weeks shots will be actually at 13 weeks I will probably ask the vet to do the rabies at the same time, if they feel it is OK. That would save me two weeks. Our Rose goes around my sister in law's dogs and step son's dog. She is not isolated completely. I know how they take care of their dogs so it is safe.


Actually the rabies depends on your County or State. We had to get it at exactly 4 months here in order to get his license.


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## amanolides (Feb 3, 2011)

Hi there fellow Seattleite! We started taking our puppy to puppy playtime in a controlled environment when she had 2 of her shots. She was 10 weeks when we started. We made sure we carried her into the building just to be safe. We also decided that the socialization was more important than the small risk of not being fully vaccinated. Our pup is now 9 months old and a really happy girl. I am convinced that the early socialization really helped in establishing her happy temperament. Enjoy your puppy. They grow so fast


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Actually the rabies depends on your County or State. We had to get it at exactly 4 months here in order to get his license.


Thank you -just checked it and the Code of VA requires it prior to attaining the age of 4 months. So I hope that I can still do it unless it would be too much on her to combine with the rest of shots.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Mine play in my yard from day one of me getting them. I generally have an existing furr pack who is vaccinated and neighbors with full vaccinated pets themselves.

Roxy, Lucy, and RIP Zoey were tiny pups they went outside with their littermates and Mama Cozy at 4 weeks. I actually worked on housebreaking with the pups starting at 6 weeks which is no easy task with tiny 1-2 pound yorkie pups.

There are no stray dogs generally in my area and it is not a high parvovirus area. TBD yes.


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## Deber (Aug 23, 2011)

Just put your thinking cap on, cause you can be safe, yet do a lot of socializing if you try. There are stores who allow pets (like some Home Depots), there are schools you can sit a chair a block away and let the kids walk by, there are friends vac. dogs to play with, there are pack trails where on leash you can walk your pup, water to explore..just so much to do, but keep in mind to never let your pup walk around where lots of dogs go or places where lots of bird poop on the ground. But if you really think, there is so much to do. Puppy classes are usually great to start as soon as possible where they learn and also have playtime with other breeds their age.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Prior to getting a puppy, I had never even heard of parvo. Perhaps it's not very prevalent in my area. My vet cautioned that there are far more dogs euthanized for behavioral issues due to lack of socialization than die from parvo. She just said to keep her away from dog parks for now. 

She takes 2 mile long walks per day around a local park, is enrolled in puppy class, has taken a trip to a busy campground / lake, etc. In the process, she's met at least 2-300 people, and at least 100 dogs. Everyone needs to do what they feel is best for their situation, but I wouldn't trade that level of socialization for anything. 



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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Nairb said:


> Prior to getting a puppy, I had never even heard of parvo. Perhaps it's not very prevalent in my area. My vet cautioned that there are far more dogs euthanized for behavioral issues due to lack of socialization than die from parvo. She just said to keep her away from dog parks for now.
> 
> She takes 2 mile long walks per day around a local park, is enrolled in puppy class, has taken a trip to a busy campground / lake, etc. In the process, she's met at least 2-300 people, and at least 100 dogs. Everyone needs to do what they feel is best for their situation, but I wouldn't trade that level of socialization for anything.
> 
> ...


Just from reading the forum and checking where members are located, I think it's much more of an issue in the southern/warmer states than in the northern/cooler climates. In Texas parvo cases exploded this year especially. The stark increase in the number of cases prompted a news article earlier this year in the local paper http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retrievers-main-discussion/114787-texans-parvo-cases-increasing.html . From the article linked in that thread:



> "I've seen more cases in the last three weeks than I usually see in an average year," said Dr. Tamara Johnson.
> 
> The clinic near White Rock Lake has seen 24 cases in the last three weeks. Four dogs have died.
> 
> ...


So for those of us here in West Nile Virus and Parvo central--we have to decide whether we want to risk a life threatening disease vs. socialization outside. We can only speak for ourselves, but if I were in the OP's shoes, I'd be hosting puppy parties and visitors in a safe environment. JMO.


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## jaxdepo (Jun 21, 2012)

we kept Jax away from other dogs and limited walks to just a few houses past ours and no grass contact. We did this until his booster shots were complete. Mainly he stayed in our backyard anyways because he didn't do much walking!


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## CaraC (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks, all, for the good advice. I do have a girlfriend who has a 2 year old Golden from this same breeder so I'm thinking about taking him to her house to play with her dog (who is fully vaccinated). I'm still not sure about walking around the neighborhood since we are in a very wooded area. We have a vet apt. next Saturday when he will be getting his 2nd set of parvo shots. After the 2nd set, does that open up the doors of what he can do a little more even though the series isn't complete?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

CaraC said:


> We live in Seattle in a very wooded area. Our neighborhood is nice (typical suburb) and ther are a lot of dogs around, I just don't want to take the risk. I just feel so bad for him because he can only play in the house and he is high energy and it would do him good to go outside and play but I just don't think there is anywhere safe enough. We have a vet apt. in a week and a half so I guess I could talk to the vet at that time.


You do need to take him out places so his socialization is not delayed. But try to find places that other dogs don't normally go, or find friends who have fully vaccinated dogs to take him over to play with and run around their yard. Carry him anywhere there might be other strange dogs and don't let him meet any dogs you don't know for sure are fully vaccinated. But do try to get him out some.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

CaraC said:


> Thanks, all, for the good advice. I do have a girlfriend who has a 2 year old Golden from this same breeder so I'm thinking about taking him to her house to play with her dog (who is fully vaccinated). I'm still not sure about walking around the neighborhood since we are in a very wooded area. We have a vet apt. next Saturday when he will be getting his 2nd set of parvo shots. *After the 2nd set, does that open up the doors of what he can do a little more even though the series isn't complete?*


I believe you need to discuss this with your vet. I seriously would not mess with his health if parvo is prevalant in your area. I have never heard of a golden being put to sleep because of behavioral problems due to not socializing with strange dogs before the age of 4 months. You might want to ask your vet that question LOL!. And I would carry him at the vets because lost of strange dogs visit there also. But a good discussion with your vet should help with your decision.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Wyatt's Mommy,

I think you cherry picked my entire comment to create a false impression of what my vet was advising. I would assume the socialization problems were with people, and she didn't specify Goldens. I can give you her phone number if you would like specifics. 

As I said, perhaps parvo is rare in my area. I still have never heard of a dog getting it here. A coworker who has a 14 yr old lab has never heard of it either. If I lived in Dallas, I may view this differently. 


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Nairb said:


> Wyatt's Mommy,
> 
> I think you cherry picked my entire comment to create a false impression of what my vet was advising. I would assume the socialization problems were with people, and she didn't specify Goldens. I can give you her phone number if you would like specifics.
> 
> ...


Just thought your post would unnecessarily scare new owners. Perhaps parvo is not prevalent in your area but it is real. And very horrible. Google I think her vet would know how common it is in her area. Its common here in So Cal. I'm just surprised so many put socialization before health.


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> ..... I have never heard of a golden being put to sleep because of behavioral problems due to not socializing with strange dogs before the age of 4 months ......


I love the discourse on this forum ( I really do!) . In a good way, not bad at all. The passion we have for our fur babies comes through *even when we have different perspectives on a particular issue. *

I just want to comment on the above because it's true that Goldens don't typically come to this extreme behaviorally. One of the breed's strong points is their wonderful resilient temperament. But lack of exposure to new environments (people, places, cats, dogs, nature, sounds, tastes, etc) during this critical early time period can leave them with fears, shyness, or anxieties that can last a lifetime. If not lasting a lifetime, the problem may take some real work to overcome. 

Not withstanding a prevalent disease problem in your area, when I needed to decide this for myself 7 years ago, I asked my vet what she does with her dogs and she said honestly, that she thought I should expose Chance to as many new experiences as possible. I didn't allow him around dogs I didn't know or dog parks but everything else I did.

Thanks for asking this question - you have already gotten awesome advice on this issue!


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Just thought your post would unnecessarily scare new owners. Perhaps parvo is not prevalent in your area but it is real. And very horrible. Google I think her vet would know how common it is in her area. Its common here in So Cal. I'm just surprised so many put socialization before health.


How would my post scare new owners? If it were not for this site, I wouldn't even know about it. At the first vet visit, we carried he in there, and never set her on the floor. Everyone looked at us like we were from outer space. I agree that parvo may be a huge problem is some areas, but people reading this site from other areas are likely scared to death of letting their dog set foot outside. I find that level of hysteria unhealthy for both the dog and the owner.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Parvovirus definitely seems to be more prevalent depending on which part of the country you come from. I personally have only seen three cases of parvovirus in my 26 years as a veterinarian. I have come under fire previously when I have also said it is somewhat socioeconomic. My husband works as a vet in a less affluent community and has seen more cases of parvovirus than I have...

The socialization your pup needs isn't just with other dogs.... It needs different social situations, different objects, different surfaces, etc. Of course I have six dogs, so I really could care less about interactions with other dogs. I want my dogs to be into me, not other dogs... I bring mine to work at eight weeks. I also take them to classes at 8 weeks...

I got a pup back from a kennel situation at 8.5 months. She was scared of the Universe. A paper bag crinkling would make her cringe... She has come a long way, but all of her fears could have been minimal if she had just gotten off of the fifteen acre farm that she lived on.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Nairb said:


> How would my post scare new owners? If it were not for this site, I wouldn't even know about it. At the first vet visit, we carried he in there, and never set her on the floor. Everyone looked at us like we were from outer space. I agree that parvo may be a huge problem is some areas, but people reading this site from other areas are likely scared to death of letting their dog set foot outside. I find that level of hysteria unhealthy for both the dog and the owner.


Who has hysteria? Surely no one that's posted on this thread so far. Hysteria/concern are two different concepts entirely. A trainer I know here in the Dallas area won't even take dogs in her classes without the last puppy shots done, simply because of parvo concerns. She does; however, provide the puppy owner with a list of safe alternatives for socialization during that critical period, including puppy parties with "safe" dogs, whether at the owner's home or elsewhere, and places where the owner and puppy can visit to meet others and be exposed to different cultures, sounds and smells. She even does home visits to get the puppy started on obedience training. The bottom line is a puppy owner needs to discuss this with the puppy's vet, who will know what the risk is for their area, as to when those puppy's feet can safely touch the ground where other dogs have been. BTW, the veterinary clinic is probably the one place you don't want your puppy's feet to touch the reception floor, unless it's recently disinfected--there are some really sick dogs there. :doh: I'd also probably avoid pet stores where dogs are allowed inside until those shots are complete. That would preclude something like Puppy Kindergarten in Petsmart.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Nairb said:


> How would my post scare new owners?


The below highlighted posts. 




Nairb said:


> Prior to getting a puppy, I had never even heard of parvo. Perhaps it's not very prevalent in my area. My vet cautioned *that there are far more dogs euthanized for behavioral issues due to lack of socialization than die from parvo.* She just said to keep her away from dog parks for now.
> 
> She takes 2 mile long walks per day around a local park, is enrolled in puppy class, has taken a trip to a busy campground / lake, etc. In the process, she's met at least 2-300 people, and at least 100 dogs. Everyone needs to do what they feel is best for their situation, *but I wouldn't trade that level of socialization for anything.*
> 
> ...


I think most people wouldn't put their dog at risk for any health reasons even if it means no socialization. And again I don't know if parvo is prevalent in the op's area. But I'm pretty certain her vet would know. And she did mention she lives in a wooded area which pretty much tells me there are wild animals roaming. Another risk.

You don't have to isolate your puppy completely in order to be safe. I don't think anyone said this. But I will highly disagree that many more goldens/dogs are euthanized because they didn't start training or playing with stray dogs before 4 months of age. Or that they will be socially inept The bottom line is that it's the op's choice so it's nice for her to hear all the issues that might be involved.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> The below highlighted posts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was simply repeating my vet's view on this. If that scares people, so be it. Afterall, this site does allow a free expression views, right? By the way, that is also the view of both breeders. They've both been showing and breeding Goldens for about 25 years. I can assure you that the health of their dogs is of utmost importance to them. Having said that, they are from Wisconsin and Illinois. Perhaps parvo isn't prevalent there either. See how I include that disclaimer in my comments?


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Dallas Gold said:


> Who has hysteria? Surely no one that's posted on this thread so far. Hysteria/concern are two different concepts entirely. A trainer I know here in the Dallas area won't even take dogs in her classes without the last puppy shots done, simply because of parvo concerns. She does; however, provide the puppy owner with a list of safe alternatives for socialization during that critical period, including puppy parties with "safe" dogs, whether at the owner's home or elsewhere, and places where the owner and puppy can visit to meet others and be exposed to different cultures, sounds and smells. She even does home visits to get the puppy started on obedience training. The bottom line is a puppy owner needs to discuss this with the puppy's vet, who will know what the risk is for their area, as to when those puppy's feet can safely touch the ground where other dogs have been. BTW, the veterinary clinic is probably the one place you don't want your puppy's feet to touch the reception floor, unless it's recently disinfected--there are some really sick dogs there. :doh: I'd also probably avoid pet stores where dogs are allowed inside until those shots are complete. That would preclude something like Puppy Kindergarten in Petsmart.


Yes. Did you notice how I conceded that things may be different in certain areas? Thanks. You just gave me another reason not to move to Texas.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Sally's Mom said:


> Parvovirus definitely seems to be more prevalent depending on which part of the country you come from. I personally have only seen three cases of parvovirus in my 26 years as a veterinarian. I have come under fire previously when I have also said it is somewhat socioeconomic. My husband works as a vet in a less affluent community and has seen more cases of parvovirus than I have...
> 
> *The socialization your pup needs isn't just with other dogs.... It needs different social situations, different objects, different surfaces, etc.* Of course I have six dogs, so I really could care less about interactions with other dogs. I want my dogs to be into me, not other dogs... I bring mine to work at eight weeks. I also take them to classes at 8 weeks...
> 
> I got a pup back from a kennel situation at 8.5 months. She was scared of the Universe. A paper bag crinkling would make her cringe... She has come a long way, but all of her fears could have been minimal if she had just gotten off of the fifteen acre farm that she lived on.


That is right on the money. It took a few walks along a busy street for her to not freak out over the cars driving by. She clearly thought that they were coming toward her. Now, she ignores them. Could this been accomplished has we waited until she's 4 months old? Perhaps, but I'm thankful that I don't have to find out. That's just one example of many.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Nairb said:


> That is right on the money. It took a few walks along a busy street for her to not freak out over the cars driving by. She clearly thought that they were coming toward her. Now, she ignores them. *Could this been accomplished has we waited until she's 4 months old? *Perhaps, but I'm thankful that I don't have to find out. That's just one example of many.


Absolutely Also every dog has a different personality. My first golden was not afraid of squat from the get go. However Wyatt was more fearful. Both waited until they were 4 months to walk thru the neighborhood on busy streets. And both loved/love people, other dogs etc.


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

We didn't know any better. 

We took our 8wk old to puppy training, walks, subway/metro, grassy areas to play etc. 

Luckily he never got sick. Mind you, this was near the end of winter, so maybe the cold weather had an impact??

He's really well socialized now though.


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

Walnut_the_Nut said:


> We didn't know any better.
> 
> We took our 8wk old to puppy training, walks, subway/metro, grassy areas to play etc.
> 
> ...


_Sometimes ignorance really is bliss_ :yes::yes::yes:


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## CaraC (Aug 15, 2012)

I just called my vet and she said that I can take him to friends' houses with dogs or walk around a little, carry him, etc. She also said that I can enroll him in puppy classes as long as he is going through the series of shots. I'm not sure I'm OK with that yet but maybe after this 2nd set of shots.


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

goldy1 said:


> _Sometimes ignorance really is bliss_ :yes::yes::yes:


We took him to Petsmart every Saturday...just to kill time. :doh:


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## Discoverer (Feb 3, 2011)

Nairb said:


> ... there are far more dogs euthanized for behavioral issues due to lack of socialization than die from parvo.


It's very true. 
A position statement on early socialization in puppies released by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior encourages veterinarians to recommend puppies be socialized before the vaccine series is complete. While veterinarians are appropriately concerned about infectious disease in young puppies, the fact is that behavioral issues—not infectious diseases—are the number one cause of death for dogs under 3 years of age, according to the AVSAB. Veterinarians contribute to these behavioral issues when recommending pets be kept away from possible germs until their vaccine series is complete, the AVSAB stated. 
Keeping your puppy in a bubble for the first 4 months of its life may eliminate the small risk of infection, but it also creates a dog that's unstable for the rest of its life. Not an acceptable trade-of !


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

For those in areas that have had large quantities of parvo I wouldn't just be concerned with not taking the puppy out and about in areas where there is heavy traffic of other dogs but I would also be very concerned with what I am bringing into the house on my shoes or hands.

In those areas with high incidence of parvo I would have everyone take off all their shoes before entering the house and wash my hands well before handling the puppy.
Or stepping my shoes in a bleach solution before coming into the house.

In the those areas with parvo I don't think it would be enough to just not take the puppy out.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Discoverer said:


> It's very true.
> A position statement on early socialization in puppies released by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior encourages veterinarians to recommend puppies be socialized before the vaccine series is complete. While veterinarians are appropriately concerned about infectious disease in young puppies,* the fact is that behavioral issues—not infectious diseases—are the number one cause of death for dogs under 3 years of age,* according to the AVSAB. Veterinarians contribute to these behavioral issues when recommending pets be kept away from possible germs until their vaccine series is complete, the AVSAB stated.
> *Keeping your puppy in a bubble for the first 4 months* of its life may eliminate the small risk of infection, but it also creates a dog that's unstable for the rest of its life. Not an acceptable trade-of !


I would assume we are talking about 3 years and under who have never been to any type of puppy classes or training classes at all. Again who is saying that a puppy needs to stay in a bubble?


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

CaraC said:


> I just called my vet and she said that I can take him to friends' houses with dogs or walk around a little, carry him, etc. She also said that I can enroll him in puppy classes as long as he is going through the series of shots. I'm not sure I'm OK with that yet but maybe after this 2nd set of shots.


For what it's worth, our obedience school requires proof of at least two boosters as well. Bella was 12 weeks and one day old when class started. Most of the other dogs were 12-15 weeks old as well.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

solinvictus said:


> For those in areas that have had large quantities of parvo I wouldn't just be concerned with not taking the puppy out and about in areas where there is heavy traffic of other dogs but I would also be very concerned with what I am bringing into the house on my shoes or hands.
> 
> In those areas with high incidence of parvo I would have everyone take off all their shoes before entering the house and wash my hands well before handling the puppy.
> *Or stepping my shoes in a bleach solution before coming into the house.*
> ...


This is actually what we have to do before entering our breeders home here. We all know nothing is gauranteed. I would be the first to say that LOL!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Molly started puppy play and puppy classes at 11 weeks at Seattle DogWorks. They required one set of vaccines and 10 days for it to "kick in". 

The emergency vet at Animal Medical Center in Shoreline said he had never seen any cases of parvo there, but saw a few cases while he was working in Lynnwood.

I would just be sure to keep your pup on concrete and no pet stores unless you carry him. No parks either regardless of terrain.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Anyway....it's been an interesting discussion!

If it makes anyone feel better, we didn't let our puppy go into the grass by the door at PetSmart when we went there last week to get her ID tag made.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"I would assume we are talking about 3 years and under who have never been to any type of puppy classes or training classes at all. Again who is saying that a puppy needs to stay in a bubble?"

They are talking about the first 3 to 4 months of the puppies life. 
_____________________________

http://behavior.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/local-assets/pdfs/Puppy_Socialization.pdf 
· Enroll in a “puppy preschool” class and start training early.
Vaccination concerns
The risk of your puppy developing serious behavior problems from being poorly
socialized is far greater than that of infectious disease. But to be safe, only let your
puppy interact with dogs that you know are physically and behaviorally healthy and
vaccinated. In addition, don’t let him play in unclean environments, such as dog parks,
that may be contaminated with germs from unknown dogs, until he has received all of
his vaccinations, usually at 16 weeks
______________________
*AMERICAN VETERINARY SOCIETY OF ANIMAL BEHAVIOR* 
*POSITION STATEMENT **ON **PUPPY SOCIALIZATION*


"In general, puppies can start puppy socialization classes as early as 7-8 weeks of age. Puppies should receive a minimum of one set of vaccines at least 7 days prior to the first class and a first deworming. They should be kept up-to-date on vaccines throughout the class."
_____________________--
American Kennel Club - AKC eNewsletter 

The Importance of Puppy Socialization 

By Arliss Paddock 
Perhaps surprisingly, failure to properly expose a young puppy to certain situations or types of people during this brief early period can result in his being forever fearful of them as an adult. Early socialization—or the lack of it—is a vital determinant of a dog’s lifelong behaviors. Without proper socialization, it is unlikely that a pup will become the adult dog he could have been, whether as a competitor in canine events or as a happy, well-adjusted pet.
__________________------


Puppy Socialization: Stop Fear Before it Starts | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS 
_________________---
*AMERICAN VETERINARY SOCIETY OF ANIMAL BEHAVIOR* 
*POSITION STATEMENT **ON **PUPPY SOCIALIZATION*
THE PRIMARY AND MOST IMPORTANT TIME FOR PUPPY SOCIALIZATION IS THE FIRST THREE MONTHS OF LIFE. During this time puppies should be exposed to as many new people, animals, stimuli and environments as can be achieved safely and without causing over- stimulation manifested as excessive fear, withdrawal or avoidance behavior. For this reason, the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior believes that it should be the standard of care for puppies to receive such socialization before they are fully vaccinated.

Because the first three months are the period when sociability outweighs fear, this is the primary window of opportunity for puppies to adapt to new people, animals, and experiences. Incomplete or improper socialization during this important time can increase the risk of behavioral problems later in life including fear, avoidance, and/or aggression. Behavioral problems are the greatest threat to the owner-dog bond. In fact, behavioral problems are the number one cause of relinquishment to shelters. Behavioral issues, not infectious diseases, are the number one cause of death for dogs under three years of age.


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## Discoverer (Feb 3, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I would assume we are talking about 3 years and under who have never been to any type of puppy classes or training classes at all. Again who is saying that a puppy needs to stay in a bubble?


There is a link in my post - http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/puppy_socialization.pdf just spent 5 minutes and read it, so you don't have to assume.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Again nobody is saying to keep their puppy in a bubble. Do you see in those articles how they* keep stressing* *safety* in doing this? There is a reason for that:bowl: There are no facts or studies that prove that a puppy _who starts classes at 4 months will turn into a social inept dog who will be put to sleep before the age of 3 or have behavorial problems._:no: That almost makes me laugh. If you feel comfortable putting your dog in classes earlier good. But it won't harm your dog to wait a few months.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Discoverer said:


> There is a link in my post - http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/puppy_socialization.pdf just spent 5 minutes and read it, so you don't have to assume.


I never argued the fact that puppies shouldn't socialize at all during this time. Ever. I had a problem with the statement that said more dogs are put down before the age of 3 because of non socialization than diseases. _Which I also believe is true however_ I would assume these dogs are not socialized or properly trained at all. _Which the article doesn't comment on._ It doesn't say anything about puppies who are kept safe from parvo infected areas or other dogs who aren't fully vaccinated and who start classes at 4 months of age and continue.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Nairb said:


> Yes. Did you notice how I conceded that things may be different in certain areas? Thanks. You just gave me another reason not to move to Texas.


Glad I could help you out so much!  We'll post armed guards at the border so you don't accidentally touch the soil of our state!


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## Discoverer (Feb 3, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> ...But it won't harm your dog to wait a few months.


You missed the whole point. QUOTE: "The primary and most important time for puppy socialization is the first three months of life. ... Because the first three months are the period when sociability outweighs fear, this is the primary window of opportunity for puppies to adapt to new people, animals, and experiences. Incomplete or improper socialization during this important time can increase the risk of behavioral problems later in life including fear, avoidance, and/or aggression. Behavioral problems are the greatest threat to the owner-dog bond. In fact, behavioral problems are the number one cause of relinquishment to shelters."


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I was told by a trainer (and have read on this forum) that the socialization window closes at 14 weeks. Whatever socialization you do after those 14 weeks will not be as effective. For me, it was really important that Molly socialized with other dogs, but in a safe way.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Discoverer said:


> You missed the whole point. QUOTE: "The primary and most important time for puppy socialization is the first three months of life. ... Because the first three months are the period when sociability outweighs fear, this is the primary window of opportunity for puppies to adapt to new people, animals, and experiences. *Incomplete or improper socialization during this important time* can increase the risk of behavioral problems later in life including fear, avoidance, and/or aggression. Behavioral problems are the greatest threat to the owner-dog bond. In fact, behavioral problems are the number one cause of relinquishment to shelters."


What are the examples of incomplete or improper socializtion during this time?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I was told by a trainer (and have read on this forum) that the socialization window closes at 14 weeks. *Whatever socialization you do after those 14 weeks will not be as effective.* For me, it was really important that Molly socialized with other dogs, but in a safe way.


Are you serious? Wow!


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Dallas,

I hope you know I was joking. I actually admire many things about Texas. The extreme heat is not one of them. Now, we can add soil quality to the list!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Are you serious? Wow!


Why are you asking ME? I'm repeating what I was told.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Why are you asking ME? I'm repeating what I was told.


Just shocked that a trainer would say this that's all. I'm sure people with golden rescues can tell you wonderful stories about how their dogs learned to socialize.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Discoverer said:


> You missed the whole point. QUOTE: "The primary and most important time for puppy socialization is the first three months of life. ... Because the first three months are the period when sociability outweighs fear, this is the primary window of opportunity for puppies to adapt to new people, animals, and experiences. Incomplete or improper socialization during this important time can increase the risk of behavioral problems later in life including fear, avoidance, and/or aggression. Behavioral problems are the greatest threat to the owner-dog bond. In fact, behavioral problems are the number one cause of relinquishment to shelters."


The puppy owners who don't want to socialize their dogs at places like Petsmart or in parks where unknown dogs have walked or soiled have many other options: inviting dogs over to the owner's house to meet both dogs and people, going to friend's homes to meet them and their vaccinated dogs, putting the puppy in a shopping cart at Home Depot and meeting people, going to a fire station or police station and meeting firefighters and officers during non-busy times, meeting friends of the family's children, holding the pup at after school activities and meeting people, driving the pup (seat belted) with windows down near big trucks, motor cycles, bicycles. The possibilities are endless. Just because you are selective in where your pup's feet touch the ground doesn't mean they aren't socialized.


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## Discoverer (Feb 3, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> What are the examples of incomplete or improper socializtion during this time?


Lack of exposing puppies to tons of different people, dogs, situations and things in their environment.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Well IF there IS a socialization window, then I would imagine that socialization would not be 100% as effective after it is closed. Otherwise there would not be a window and people wouldn't worry about how the breeders are socializing their pups if they can just make up for it later. How much less effective it actually is, I don't know. I really think it depends on the dog as some are more fearful and less confident than others.

And I said "less effective" NOT "ineffective". Socialization is a life long process.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Well IF there IS a socialization window, then I would imagine that socialization would not be 100% as effective after it is closed. Otherwise there would not be a window and people wouldn't worry about how the breeders are socializing their pups if they can just make up for it later. How much less effective it actually is, I don't know. I really think it depends on the dog as some are more fearful and less confident than others.
> 
> And I said "less effective" NOT "ineffective".


Personally, if/when the time comes for us to introduce a baby pup to our family, I'll be taking what I refer to as a "pup-ternity" leave--my number 1 priority is to that pup, and his/her sibling, during those crucial weeks.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"The possibilities are endless. Just because you are selective in where your pup's feet touch the ground doesn't mean they aren't socialized. "

I totally agree with you if the puppy owner makes the effort and does this. I have noticed a tendency from some puppy owners I talk to that they don't do this. They keep the puppy at home. Don't have puppy parties and the puppy does lose out on all the important socialization. These pups are only exposed to a very limited amount of persons/places and things. It is all about balance and common sense.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Discoverer said:


> Lack of exposing puppies to tons of different people, dogs, situations and things in their environment.


Whew! Or in other words keeping them in a bubble.



Vhuynh2 said:


> Socialization is a life long process.


Absolutely!


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

According to behavior science there is a critical period for socialization. It is in the first 3 to 4 months of the pups life. 
Pups and dogs do learn after that critical period. Some better than others. Each pup is an individual and there is no knowing which one won't be affected by the lack of socialization. The trainer was only stating the facts as we know them in the scientific field of behavior at this time.


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## Discoverer (Feb 3, 2011)

Socialization is much more than just exposing your dog to your family and dogs and maybe a few kids in your neighborhood, this is a good start but not nearly enough for most puppies. Socialization is taking the puppy everywhere you go exposing to hundreds of unfamiliar adults, young, old in wheel chairs using crutches, rollerbladers, bike riders, real life events, school yards with lots of yelling and screaming kids, and dogs of all different sizes and colors. This socialization will need to continue throughout most of the dog’s life, so yes it's a life long process, but for the first three months the socialization is force free and completely voluntary on the dog's part. At birth a puppy has essentially all the brain cells it is ever going to have during its whole life time. All the brain cells present at birth, a huge number are not connected or wired together. What takes place during early puppy development is the wiring pattern of the nerve cells. The consistent socialization from 4 weeks to 3 months is critical for healthy brain development and if it's not done properly will need serious effort to correct later in their life.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Discoverer said:


> Socialization is much more than just exposing your dog to your family and dogs and maybe a few kids in your neighborhood, this is a good start but not nearly enough for most puppies. Socialization is taking the puppy everywhere you go exposing to hundreds of unfamiliar adults, young, old in wheel chairs using crutches, rollerbladers, bike riders, real life events, school yards with lots of yelling and screaming kids, and dogs of all different sizes and colors. This socialization will need to continue throughout most of the dog’s life, so yes it's a life long process, but for the first three months the socialization is force free and completely voluntary on the dog's part. At birth a puppy has essentially all the brain cells it is ever going to have during its whole life time. All the brain cells present at birth, a huge number are not connected or wired together. What takes place during early puppy development is the wiring pattern of the nerve cells. The consistent socialization from 4 weeks to 3 months is critical for healthy brain development and if it's not done properly will need serious effort to correct later in the their life.


Well, then I guess I better not get a puppy, because I'm not sure I can "expose" him/her to hundreds of unfamiliar adults in such a short time.:doh::doh:


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Discoverer said:


> Socialization is much more than just exposing your dog to your family and dogs and maybe a few kids in your neighborhood, this is a good start but not nearly enough for most puppies. Socialization is taking the puppy everywhere you go exposing to hundreds of unfamiliar adults, young, old in wheel chairs using crutches, rollerbladers, bike riders, real life events, school yards with lots of yelling and screaming kids, and dogs of all different sizes and colors. This socialization will need to continue throughout most of the dog’s life, so yes it's a life long process, but for the first three months the socialization is force free and completely voluntary on the dog's part. At birth a puppy has essentially all the brain cells it is ever going to have during its whole life time. All the brain cells present at birth, a huge number are not connected or wired together. What takes place during early puppy development is the wiring pattern of the nerve cells. The consistent socialization from 4 weeks to 3 months is critical for healthy brain development and if it's not done properly will need serious effort to correct later in their life.


Please introduce me to these dogs that get that much socialization I would love to meet them and congratulate their owners because I could never possibly expose my own human children to this much in such a short amount of time. Kudos to these people. My poor dogs are so behind now I probably should seek professional help for them.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Please introduce me to these dogs that get that much socialization I would love to meet them and congratulate their owners because I could never possibly expose my own human children to this much in such a short amount of time. Kudos to these people. My poor dogs are so behind now I probably should seek professional help for them.


I'll join you as well. Maybe we should have a support sub-forum here for parents of under socialized dogs, for those who didn't expose their dogs to hundreds of unfamiliar adults.:doh::doh:


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## Discoverer (Feb 3, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Please introduce me to these dogs that get that much socialization I would love to meet them and congratulate their owners because I could never possibly expose my own human children to this much in such a short amount of time. Kudos to these people. My poor dogs are so behind now I probably should seek professional help for them.





Dallas Gold said:


> Well, then I guess I better not get a puppy, because I'm not sure I can "expose" him/her to hundreds of unfamiliar adults in such a short time.:doh::doh:


Here is the short diary of the Oscar's socialization just to give you an idea 









Every day our kids and kids from neighborhood play with him since he was 8 weeks









Since day one I took him out for off leash walking









Every day introduced to the new objects









And lots of different surfaces









Different flours









Water









He played with many different dogs









Of all sizes and age









I took him sailing









and kayaking









He walked across the logs









And carried him everywhere we went


By the time he was 4 months old he met 500+ different people, 200+ different dogs, was a good swimmer, been introduced to all kind of loud sounds, including the distance gun shooting, been on several loud adult parties, went camping for a week, played with kids daily and was afraid practically of nothing.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Discoverer said:


> Here is the short diary of the Oscar's socialization just to give you an idea
> 
> 
> Every day our kids and kids from neighborhood play with him since he was 8 weeks
> ...


Congratulations!

My Cody (RIP) was not afraid of ANYTHING either. Well I take that back, he was afraid of thunder. But not of gunshots go figure And of course an awesome swimmer as we have a pool and a home on the Colorado river. a avid boater, runner, hiker. Loved loved loved kids and other dogs. However I was very careful where he put his little paws before the age of 4 months. We actually stayed home from our vacation home on the river to be with him in his safe environment until we felt it safe enough to travel there. I have no regrets.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Discoverer said:


> Here is the short diary of the Oscar's socialization just to give you an idea
> xxxxxxxx
> And carried him everywhere we went
> 
> ...


I am very glad you were so perfect in socializing your pup; however, I don't think you necessarily MUST introduce your dog to 500+ people to have a well socialized dog, provided you do get out and about and introduce the pup to a variety of situations, noises and environments. I, for one, am not going to hold myself to a standard that the pup MUST meet a specified number of people by x date or I've failed. Rather, I plan to expose the pup to different people in different situations--if it's 99, fine, 1000, fine, 50 fine. I want the exposures to be pleasant, not a receiving line. Quality, not quantity. Most likely, when our time comes to bring a new one home, we will be flying the pup with us in the cabin of an airplane. My guess is we'll probably see over 100 people on that first adventure--to me that doesn't mean as much as seeing fewer people who actually spend time with Future Pup over time, petting, talking and playing with him/her.


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## Spiffy (Jul 9, 2012)

Discoverer said:


> Here is the short diary of the Oscar's socialization just to give you an idea
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Great job! I get my puppy on Saturday and plan to do exactly what you did. I am impressed. For those of you who are questioning if this is necessary, it really is! There is a critical time for socialization. There has been numerous scientific studies and books written on these exact topics. Read Ian Dunbar or Dr. Sophia Yin for more information on how crucial early socialization really is.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Spiffy said:


> Great job! I get my puppy on Saturday and plan to do exactly what you did. I am impressed. For those of you who are questioning if this is necessary, it really is! There is a critical time for socialization. There has been numerous scientific studies and books written on these exact topics. Read Ian Dunbar or Dr. Sophia Yin for more information on how crucial early socialization really is.


I don't think anyone here is questioning if socialization is necessary, just how it is accomplished. I've read Ian Dunbar's book.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Discoverer,

That is a very impressive post! We can't claim to have done all of that, but we did take our 14 week old pup on a 4 day camping trip over the past few days. She waded across the headwaters of the Mississippi River about a dozen times and actually attempted to cross the rock bridge, before turning back due to very slippery rocks. She was exposed to hundreds of people of all ages, dozens of dogs, fire, loud noises, long distance travel, sleeping in a camper, etc. I can't imagine her missing that experience at this impressionable age. 


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

delete because it's not worth it. I have no worries anymore about parvo. My puppy is no longer a puppy.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Just to add, whether you wait until your puppy is 3 mo, 6 mo, or a year old, take your him/her camping! Every adult dog that I encountered on that trip was extremely well mannered. I don't recall a single dog barking at me or my puppy. Well, maybe the poorly behaved dogs got left in a kennel or with relatives...

The highlight for Bella was her 15 minute wrestling match with a 90 pound 3 year old male Golden. He even let Bella win a few times. 


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Nairb said:


> Just to add, whether you wait until your puppy is 3 mo, 6 mo, or a year old, take your him/her camping! Every adult dog that I encountered on that trip was extremely well mannered. I don't recall a single dog barking at me or my puppy. Well, maybe the poorly behaved dogs got left in a kennel or with relatives...
> 
> The highlight for Bella was her 15 minute wrestling match with a 90 pound 3 year old male Golden. He even let Bella win a few times.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestion. I better get something larger than my two person backpacking tent! 


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## Deber (Aug 23, 2011)

This has been an interesting thread and glad it was posted. If all would go back and read we have ideas and opinions from about all over No. America! Amazing. 

I too live in an area where Parvo is the greatest killer of our young dogs. I had to be slapped in the face when Parvo hit one of my own dogs (2006 and fully vaccinated but she got a case of the new Parvo 2c which our vac. didn't cover) to jump in and learn all I can. Parvo is a virus, it mutates, it changes and is of an ultimate concern for those of us who must live in an area with it. We do not dismiss it and it weighs on our minds throught our dogs lives. We must be prepared and do what we can. Of course we know early socialization is a great concern and for the few that really care, we found things every day to socialize our dogs to. In many ways we must do much more to accomplish this than others who don't live with this nasty disease. We come up with unique things, off the wall doings for our babes that probably wouldn't occur to others but we worked hard to socialize, but keep the risk of Parvo to a minimum. To me, it isn't the count, it is the life experiences we show our babes. To compare what we do in Parvo areas to other areas where parvo is rare is not something you can actually compare. No one's wrong because the bottom line is socialization for our puppy. If that is done with the dog's personality and a wholehearted effort, then we have done our best. 

Parvo is horrible and the death is not a quiet and gentle one, it is full of cries of pain and agony. I know most will never have to witness this and it is hard to comprehend until you go through it, but for me, I did all I could to balance the safety of my golden pups with the strong need to socialize. Did I do enough? I don't know, but my dogs were highly socialized in some pretty crazy ways and it was actually fun to figure out things to do, places to go and how to handle..but we did a lot.

Isn't it great, that this thread was opened and all of us came here to speak of how we try to socialize around this and other disease risks? Do you understand that for the vast majority of people, it would never occur to them to socialize at all, or the reason for it, or for Vet care, vac., trying to feed the right food for best development. We are unique...we care! I don't care what the opinion is on this because we live in vastly different parts of the country and each part has it's own health concerns regarding its baby animals, but find it facinating to see how concerned we all are for our dogs wellfare. Bravo to the ones who posted, for you LOVE and CARE for your dogs enough to have an opinion and get out there and do! Yea! Our dogs are blessed.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Deber said:


> This has been an interesting thread and glad it was posted. If all would go back and read we have ideas and opinions from about all over No. America! Amazing.
> 
> I too live in an area where Parvo is the greatest killer of our young dogs. I had to be slapped in the face when Parvo hit my own dogs and watched slow horrible death to jump in and learn all I can. Parvo is a virus, it mutates, it changes and is of an ultimate concern for those of us who must live in an area with it. We do not dismiss it and it weighs on our minds throught our dogs lives. We must be prepared and do what we can. Of course we know early socialization is a great concern and for the few that really care, we did in our life to find things every day to socialize our dogs to. In many ways we must do much more to accomplish this than others who don't live with this nasty disease. We come up with unique things, off the wall doings for our babes that probably wouldn't occur to others. But we work hard to socialize, but keep the risk of Parvo to a minimum. To me, it isn't the count, it is the life experiences we show our babes. To compare what we do in Parvo areas to other areas is not something you can actually compare. Neither is wrong because the bottom line is socialization for our puppy. If that is done with the dog's personality and a wholehearted effort, then we have done our best.
> 
> Parvo is horrible and the death is not a quiet and gentle one, it is full of cries of pain and agony. I know most will never have to witness this and it is hard to comprehend, but for me, I did all I could to balance the safety of my babies against the strong need to socialize. Did I do enough? I don't know, but my dogs were highly socialized in some pretty crazy ways and it was actually fun to figure out things to do, places to go and how to handle..but we did a lot.


Exactly--thank you for posting this! 

When our time comes for a new little one, do you want to trek over to Dallas and join us for some of our socialization adventures?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Deber said:


> Parvo is horrible and the death is not a quiet and gentle one, it is full of cries of pain and agony. I know most will never have to witness this and it is hard to comprehend until you go through it, but for me, I did all I could to balance the safety of my golden pups with the strong need to socialize. Did I do enough? I don't know, but my dogs were highly socialized in some pretty crazy ways and it was actually fun to figure out things to do, places to go and how to handle..but we did a lot.


I'm sooo sorry to hear one of your pups was hit with this horrible horrible parvo. I also witnessed my brothers puppy go thru this. And after seeing what she went thru it really opened my eyes. Again sorry


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Like LibertyMe, we keep an actual list on the fridge for puppies to check off benchmarks as we reach them. The goal is to have it complete by 16 weeks:

100 friendly strangers
12 different surfaces to walk on
25 friendly stable dogs
elevator ride
crutches, wheel chair, floppy hats, back pack, bikes, umbrella, milar balloon
Swim if seasonally feasible
Trip to LL Bean Boot
Trip to town hall
Trip to Old Port
Trip to The Book Review(Independent bookstore that loves/allows dogs)
Trip to all school meeting at local private elementary school
Trip to a varsity high school sport
STAR Puppy class
Overnight stay with friend or family member
Daily woods lollygag


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

What Ljilly28 said..it is not all about getting dogs together. In my little life, I know my,pup will be socialized with dogs. More important than that is how will it handle people? Social situations? And as I have said before interdog situations are really not important to me.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Below is a quote, excerpted from Ian Dunbar's _After You Get Your Puppy_, pages 23 and 24, available for free on Dog Star Daily. I thought it appropriate to include in this discussion:



> You now have just a few weeks left to socialize your puppy.
> Unfortunately, your pup needs to be confined indoors until he is
> at least three months old, when he has acquired sufficient
> immunity through his puppy shots against the more serious dog
> ...


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> Like LibertyMe, we keep an actual list on the fridge for puppies to check off benchmarks as we reach them. The goal is to have it complete by 16 weeks:
> 
> 100 friendly strangers
> 12 different surfaces to walk on
> ...


Thanks for this--I was thinking about the 12 different surfaces and can come up with at least 9 here at my house and at my neighbors, possibly 10 if I lay out some rubber matting we have on hand. Would you mind listing some of the more obscure surfaces you recommend? I wish I could add LL Bean, Old Port and the Book Review to our to-do list !


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

If you live in a nice neighborhood where the dog are likely to be vaccinated, I wouldn't worry. It's the common areas where many stray dogs toilet (outside a vet's office, petstores or dog parks) that pose a risk for your puppy.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

carpet, vinyl, hard wood, tile, concrete, grass, dirt, yoga mat, bed, brick (we have a wood stove and it has brick all around it), mulch, sand, pebbles (walkway around the fish pond has little rocks pebbles), wet grass, cast iron tub.....


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Claudia M said:


> carpet, vinyl, hard wood, tile, concrete, grass, dirt, yoga mat, bed, brick (we have a wood stove and it has brick all around it), mulch, sand, pebbles (walkway around the fish pond has little rocks pebbles), wet grass, cast iron tub.....


Thanks! I've got most of those here, except the cast iron tub. I have a cast iron grill plate though. I also have a very secure vinyl cover to our Endless Pool that supports a child or animal, so that is added to the list, and the reward is a swim adventure after.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Willow52 said:


> If you live in a nice neighborhood where the dog are likely to be vaccinated, I wouldn't worry. It's the common areas where many stray dogs toilet (outside a vet's office, petstores or dog parks) that pose a risk for your puppy.


I live in a nice very dog friendly area of town, but we have so much wildlife and so many people who don't update vaccinations for a variety of reasons, I would not want to take the chance due to the parvo epidemic here. In addition, despite city ordinances requiring us to scoop the poop, there is always an element that does not do that and act as if the ordinances don't apply to them. I've seen fresh dog poop with blood in it, fresh white dog poop and a trail of diarrhea, all on sidewalks in/around the neighborhood. I'm constantly looking down trying to keep Toby from these things too.

Plus we have a lot of BYB dogs dumped into our neighborhood from time to time. That's how my next door neighbor "rescued" one of her dogs,one of several just dropped randomly along streets in the area (witnesses saw this). Another neighbor had a box of puppies left on his front porch.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Dallas Gold said:


> I live in a nice very dog friendly area of town, but we have so much wildlife and so many people who don't update vaccinations for a variety of reasons, I would not want to take the chance due to the parvo epidemic here. In addition, despite city ordinances requiring us to scoop the poop, there is always an element that does not do that and act as if the ordinances don't apply to them. I've seen fresh dog poop with blood in it, fresh white dog poop and a trail of diarrhea, all on sidewalks in/around the neighborhood. I'm constantly looking down trying to keep Toby from these things too.
> 
> Plus we have a lot of BYB dogs dumped into our neighborhood from time to time. That's how my next door neighbor "rescued" one of her dogs,one of several just dropped randomly along streets in the area (witnesses saw this). Another neighbor had a box of puppies left on his front porch.


Again....I understand why you would be concerned in your part of the country. I does seem to be a legitimate problem in Texas, and some other Southern climates. I'm fairly certain that my puppy is far more likely to get hit by a car than contract Parvo where I live. I've looked into it. Other than an outbreak of 10 cases in a small town 150 miles north of me last year, it hasn't been an issue here.


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