# Tito's Training Journal, weeks 4 and 5, REAL long



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'll put both weeks together, I missed writing week 4's journal, but the training sessions are following a pattern now so the weeks are similar. Gonna be long, though.

First 5-10 minutes both weeks involved further work on the force fetch. Tito willingly lunges to a force bumper laid on the ground several feet away and grabs it.
A couple of things that were of interest to me. First, the trainer uses the word "FETCH" only when doing the FF. Otherwise it's "take it", which is what Tito is used to from obedience. I asked him why, he said that Fetch is "the F-word" to his dogs. When they hear that word they associate it with a certain behavior, whereas "take it" can be used for fun bumpers, etc. I hadn't thought of this, but can see it would be valuable to have two different commands. When Tito is totally force trained, I assume we will switch to using "Fetch" when going for birds. (?)
Also, the trainer says that in a way dogs like Tito are very hard to train, because he is so smart and willing. Sometimes it's hard to tell if Tito is doing something because he wants to (willing), or because he feels he HAS to. We have a hard time setting him up for situations where he doesn't choose to do something and we have to force him to do it. This is critical (which I can see from what's going on in the obedience ring right now, but that's a different topic) because at some point he is going to decide he doesn't want to do something and we need to have this to fall back on. Right now he decides he wants to do whatever we want him to do. It's his basic personality. So it's easy to assume that he's thoroughly "trained" when he's not. He's just going along with the program because he feels like it.
We do things like have him run a bit so he's warm and panting, and then have him walk around holding a bumper. Clearly he'd rather *not* hold the bumper, but danged if we can get him to drop it so we can get a correction in. We have to keep upping the ante to get him to decide not to do something we've asked him to do. 

Next about 10 minutes of e-collar work. Week 4, it was some sit, here, heel work. Nothing major, and Tito responded very well to it. Dan asked me to do it at home during the week (fast forward, I did NOT use the collar at home. I'm afraid I'm not going to use it right. Lack of security on my part. Made a mental note to have Dan work with me week 5 on the use of the collar). 
Week 5, MAJOR e-collar learning experience! Dan worked with me a little, having me do some very basic obedience with Tito (on leash) but Dan had the collar control. He would "nick" Tito every so often, and say "NICK" when he did it so that I could learn how to do it correctly. It was a great way to do it, the collar stimulations were coming at the exact right time without me messing it up, and I was able to understand the correct use of the collar.
Well.....
Tito decided at one point (not sure what led up to it, it's a blur) that he was going to take off for the pond and have himself a nice little swim around the lake. The trainer blew the come-in whistle and shouted for Tito to come. There's NO WAY the dog didn't hear him. But he just kept going. NICK-NICK---BRIEF CONTINUOUS STIMULATION on the collar. Tito turned on a dime and came flying back to us (he'd been about 40 yards away). LOTS of praise for making the right choice as soon as he turned back toward us. Of course we set him up for the exact same situation immediately, he decided to go for a swim again, but this time all it took was one short collar nick and he came right back.
It was a MAJOR "aha" moment for him. No leash....but we still have control of him....
The third time, we didn't have to nick the collar to get him to come back.
This was followed immediately by some swimming, even though that wasn't what Dan had originally planned. He wanted Tito to associate the correction with ignoring a command, not with going in the water, so he was taken right away in the water and allowed to swim around a bit. No bumpers, just in case there was a negative association Dan didn't want it to be with bumpers/fetching. But there was no negative association. I truly believe Tito made a conscious decision to ignore the come command, and knew why he was being corrected.

Week 4, some work on lining. Because of Tito's obedience work, he's very familiar with lining (utility gloves). I'm to practice lining in my yard to stuff further and further away, and make the angles between the posts closer and closer until he'll line to just about anything.
One big difference between what I do in obedience and what I'm to do now is in the "mark" for lining. In obedience, my hand is actually guiding him where to look. For this, I'm not to guide him except by saying "look" or something similar. I'm to guide him only by the position of his spine being lined up exactly with what he is to retrieve. My hand over his head is to confirm that he is correct, not to guide him. That's new to me. 

Week 5, some work on back casting. Tito already understands the casting to the side (not sure why he knows this), so we are working on short casts to the back right and back left. 
Interesting how Dan teaches this. He puts a food bowl out about 12 feet behind Tito with a few treats in it. (Tito is sitting with his back to the food bowl, but about 2 feet to the right of the bowl, not in a straight line with it). I'm to stand in a direct line with the bowl. This is hard to explain. Picture a straight line between me and the food bowl, with Tito sitting a few feet in front of me, facing me, but about 2 feet to the right of the line, and the food bowl behind him. I give him the hand signal to cast back/left and he goes and gets the food out of the bowl. We repeat this to the left and to the right. I'm to work on this at home, too.

It's been hot here, so we do some water work at this point. I always thought Tito wasn't a very strong swimmer, but I can see that Dan's right, he's just not in a big hurry to get back to shore. He can really haul butt on the way OUT to get the bird/bumper! But he's progressing nicely on coming back fast (yank yank on his tow rope), and doing really well with coming right to heel without dropping the bumper or bird and without shaking until told to do so. This one fascinates me, dogs not being allowed to shake the water off until told to do so. I love the hand signal for "shake". 

Finally, Tito's reward for all this always comes at the end in the form of getting some birds. Week 4 we did some marking and "upland hunting skills", and Dan says the T-man has a FANTASTIC nose. Tracks down clipped wing (duck) birds with no problem, even when they've run pretty far. BUT he for sure needs some work on just quickly grabbing a live bird and getting back with it. He takes a minute to mess with the grip on it. Dan does NOT allow this, so it was back on the long line and as soon as Tito gets any part of the bird in his mouth he has to return AT ONCE. It's funny to see him running back full speed ahead with a wing over his face...

Week 5 instead of upland work we did swamp work. With all the rain, one of their other ponds is a massive muddy swamp hole so the trainer thought it was a great opportunity to work on some messy entries and different scenes for water retrieves. Tito, of course, just vaults over the mud etc. into the water. I worry about whether that could be dangerous in some hunting situations with submerged rocks or logs, I hope they check that in hunt tests. This set up Tito had to vault into the water, swim and/walk across about 30 yards, go up on a mucky bank, get the duck, and return with it. He did a great job!

Dan says Tito is "very independent" when it comes to actual birds, and I see it too. I am quite glad that I have taken his advice about not entering the Tito Monster in any hunt events until he's 150% ready, thoroughly FF and CC, and understands the rules of the game.

At some point, I will have to participate in the FF. So far I've let Dan do it. The only thing I've done so far is pressure on his muzzle if he drops a bumper, and putting the bumper back in his mouth. It's not that I'm opposed to doing it, it's that I don't want to do it incorrectly. I'd rather have Tito understand it totally (that he, himself is in charge of whether or not he gets pressure on his ear) before I do it. I'm to use the collar at home this week (with more explanation from Dan before we left) so that Tito realizes that the collar isn't just an extension of Dan, anyone can use it. 

And now I have to admit that I'm feeling VERY guilty. I leave there with such good intentions, but I'm not doing ANYTHING at home with him. Wednesday was the hunting lesson. Thursday and Friday we were at dog shows. Today/tomorrow I have to work all day, it's super busy here at the pet hotel, hot as heck out, etc. Add to that a major frustration right now with the UDX legs in obedience, and I'm not being a very good training partner for Tito right now.

Hope everyone gets some good training ideas from Tito's training journal!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Barb-

Thank you so much for writing these. It helps a lot and I enjoy them. When you send on marks don't you send on Tito's name? I am so novice, but I see that fetch is never really used unless the dog drops the bird/bumper and you have to correct him.

I like what he said about take it vs. fetch, and I have been doing a similar thing. Fetch is my 'have to' command, and 'get it' is not enforced. So, if we play with a ball/stick or I ask her to bring my shoes in the morning I am not going to enforce it. (Although I may have to give up on playing with sticks/balls at least the time being so as not to create bad habits  )

I hope you find time to get your training in. Just relax--Tito will get there. Maybe you also need a break from the obedience ring~~birds is a good break 

Lisa


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Tito already understands the casting to the side (not sure why he knows this)

I think it's because he's familiar with taking directions from directed jumping. Conner had no problem with this either.

One thing I found interesting is when I talked to a trainer that does both field and obedience. She said that she ran into a problem when she showed in obedience outdoors, and her dog would actually cast left or right instead of taking a jump. She solved that problem by making her jump signal an angle in. Never had a problem at indoor trials though.


I am sooooo jealous, I wish I could take classes with you!!!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm glad they're helping you, I write them in the hope that others as novice as I am might get a few training tips from them.
I don't send on Tito's name, no. Dan and I talked about it, and he felt that, at this point in Tito's obedience career (over when we get the UDX, 7 more legs to go) there's no point in taking a chance on him getting confused and going out on his name in the obedience ring. If we were just starting showing in obedience, we'd work him thru it. Instead, we are almost *done* with obedience. I do frequently use Tito's name in the obedience ring (especially lately when his head is so far up his butt he can't see me) so it is a legitimate concern.
Don't play with sticks. You're setting yourself up for a BIG problem at some point.





GoldenSail said:


> Barb-
> 
> Thank you so much for writing these. It helps a lot and I enjoy them. When you send on marks don't you send on Tito's name? I am so novice, but I see that fetch is never really used unless the dog drops the bird/bumper and you have to correct him.
> 
> ...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Jodie, I'll bet you're exactly right, it's the directed jumping. I hadn't thought of that but it makes perfect sense.
Dan and I talked about the directed jumping versus casting, and we don't think there will be a problem because when I give the jump signal, my hands are down at my sides. I bring my hand up to about chest level in an arc, thumb up, with the command "jump it". 
For casting, my hands start at my chest level, up against my chest, palms facing outward, thumbs straight up. So it's a very different motion.
We're showing outside in obedience mid-July (which is VERY rare for us), so I'll see what happens. 




Loisiana said:


> Tito already understands the casting to the side (not sure why he knows this)
> 
> I think it's because he's familiar with taking directions from directed jumping. Conner had no problem with this either.
> 
> ...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

*although he did NQ the directed jumping in two of the last three shows, which is soooo not like him.....*


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

'kay Barb, now you've gotta go make an obedience update post  You know everyone wants to hear about ALL of Tito's adventures!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

nope, it is a topic I am avoiding :doh:



Loisiana said:


> 'kay Barb, now you've gotta go make an obedience update post  You know everyone wants to hear about ALL of Tito's adventures!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

aw come on, we all have our ups and downs.....I do recall a few months back a post complaining about a dog not able to pick up any more points in breed. And we all know how that very quickly turned around! 

If it makes you feel any better, Conner earned his UDX in December and has only gotten one more leg since then.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Great update about Tito. I have seen a few dogs who like to take more time with the bird once they get there, I think getting the "perfect" hold and a slow return are just ways to get more time with the birds! It's especially interesting when the dogs can count and race back and forth for the first birds in multiple marks, but take their time on the last one. Smart cookies!

Sammy had a flying water entry as well, and I did ALWAYS worry about him jumping into water when we tried field with him...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, that's EXACTLY what Dan (and I) think Tito is doing. He's savoring his prize for a few precious moments. That's why he's back on the long line! (not reliably CC yet).




sammydog said:


> Great update about Tito. I have seen a few dogs who like to take more time with the bird once they get there, I think getting the "perfect" hold and a slow return are just ways to get more time with the birds! It's especially interesting when the dogs can count and race back and forth for the first birds in multiple marks, but take their time on the last one. Smart cookies!
> 
> Sammy had a flying water entry as well, and I did ALWAYS worry about him jumping into water when we tried field with him...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Yes, that's EXACTLY what Dan (and I) think Tito is doing. He's savoring his prize for a few precious moments. That's why he's back on the long line! (not reliably CC yet).


My friend's dog used to be BAD about this -- but also to the point of blinking birds and/or rolling on them. The owner "thought" she had FF'd her dog -- clearly not well enough. She went back to square one and did more thorough FF and the problem was cleaned up. If the dog dilly-dallies at all over the bird, she gets pulled away from it then ear pinched to the bird.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Which is why I'm putting myself (and Tito) in the hands of a professional trainer....I know less than nothing about this stuff, never FF'd him in obedience, so we're starting from square one as it is. I don't want to mess it up!
I don't know if Dan plans to ear pinch him back to the bird at some point. For now, Tito wants that bird so badly that just being called off the bird (ok, yanked off) and having the bird picked back up is working. 



K9-Design said:


> My friend's dog used to be BAD about this -- but also to the point of blinking birds and/or rolling on them. The owner "thought" she had FF'd her dog -- clearly not well enough. She went back to square one and did more thorough FF and the problem was cleaned up. If the dog dilly-dallies at all over the bird, she gets pulled away from it then ear pinched to the bird.


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