# Preferred vs Regular



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I have heard the stories and won't show my chihuahua because of them. But after watching for decades and competing with my last girl wonder just how often this really happens. I have seen a few anxious dogs but they just want to find their owners or escape the ring. There were plenty of people present to make sure this didn't happen and even those dogs didn't want to bother the other dogs.

As you line up to enter if there are any behavioral issues they will remove the person/dog causing the problem. I found every competition we were in to be very safe. and hope this doesn't keep you from doing these events.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

You can start out in the preferred classes right now... while you are proofing the stays.

Try to get into as many fun matches as possible doing the OOS stays. 

It helps both of you get over your nerves. 

I agree with you - there's something unnerving about the OOS stays at some sites. There's about 2 sites that I vaguely think I'd feel comfortable doing OOS stays right now. Others, you are walking out of the ring and disappearing into a crowd kinda, so it might be more stressful for the dog. Unless you double handle (have a relative sit within sight of the dog). 

My gut feeling as well, if you never feel comfortable doing the OOS stays, at least you have the preferred title to show what you trained for.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

At trials Ive been to there hasn't been a problem with stays. My friends and I show at different levels so there is always someone watching what's going on. Judges watch closely as well. I always show in regular classes.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Yes the judges watch very carefully and have stewards to assist if necessary.

I notice there was a winking smiley next to the comment above about double handling but for the benefit of those not familiar with obedience, double handling is a violation of the rules.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

TheZ's said:


> I notice there was a winking smiley next to the comment above about double handling but for the benefit of those not familiar with obedience, double handling is a violation of the rules.


It is against the rules to double-handle - yeah.

However, my feeling is the older chicks in obedience are quick to have hissy fits about OOS stays being unnatural and dangerous....

The same chicks have the same hissy fits about some people making their spouses or training partners sit within the dog's view during the stays. They call the act of sitting outside the ring IS double-handling. 

My feeling is pick your battles. As long as a sitting person isn't attempting to communicate with the dog (hand signals) or mouthing stay commands or whatever, it should not be a problem for them to sit within the dog's sight as a comfort boost - particularly for an insecure dog. Or a busybody dog. 

When I was a kid starting out in obedience, I had to tell my mom to stay put outside the ring where Danny could see her. Because if he couldn't see her, it stressed him out. He was one of those dogs who liked having all his pack nearby where he could see them. 

I know plenty of people who do this properly without complaint. It gets lumped in with double handling by those chicks looking for stuff to crab about, but it's not the same as actively training the dog outside the ring.

Only way I could personally see it as a problem is in the cases above (somebody literally training the dog outside the ring). Alternatively, it would be like if I had a fill-in take my dog in for me while I sat outside the ring. 

FWIW - there are kooks anywhere looking for stuff to attack other people on. 

Case in point is conformation, double-handling is having people set up outside the ring and cue the dogs to get the heads up and ears forward (sort of like the assistant photographer who throws toys while win pics are being taken). 

There are people who see people pulling greener handlers aside and giving them tips (or orders LOL) as double handling. <= Which is silly.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

TheZ's said:


> Yes the judges watch very carefully and have stewards to assist if necessary.
> 
> I notice there was a winking smiley next to the comment above about double handling but for the benefit of those not familiar with obedience, double handling is a violation of the rules.


It is a violation. It really stinks for the rest of us when people cheat. It's really not that hard to play by the rules.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Abeille said:


> It is a violation. It really stinks for the rest of us when people cheat. It's really not that hard to play by the rules.


Do you consider family members, training buddies, etc... sitting outside the ring to be cheating?

Because that means majority of trainers out there are cheating.

Other thing. Talk to people who compete with their dogs. You need to follow the rules and everyone does - but there are certain areas where it really depends on how you look at it. And people figure out what they can do within the letter of the rules without getting points off or NQ'd. 

That's people using "jackpot" reminder words to get a dog revved up and thinking treats are coming - before beginning to heel or between exercises. That's people who do subtle things between exercises like patting their "treat pockets"... or handlers who know where the judges are looking and do things like puffing their cheek out to make it look like there's a treat in their mouths (I don't do that, but I've seen it done)... and there's other things.

Heck, there's a trainer (also a judge) who before a trial where she was entered with her dog, casually found time to slip into the ring before the trial began and adjust the "go out" stanchion so it was more obvious to the dogs. People saw this, including the judge and were stunned at the guts.  The judge went in and put the stanchion back the way it was... but that does give you an idea of what some people might do. Having a support team sitting out there where your dog can see them during the stays isn't as big a deal as some shrill people make it. <= And before anyone says anything about me and my dog btw (not that they would, LOL) - I generally go by myself to trials and shows now and never would ask anyone else to assume a sitting position for my dog's benefit. I do, however, think that it's probably a comfort to the dogs to see familiar people outside the ring, if they are looking. As long as the people are sitting still and behaving themselves (no hand signals, no mouthing, no rattling chip bags to throw off competitors, no holding hot dogs out to throw off competitors, etc)....

A good example appropriate aside the law type of things, fwiw, is your girl's breeder (I believe if I remember that right) is one of the judges I love showing under because she is going to be one of those who once a dog NQ's is not going to throw a competitor out of the ring for loosening up and making a run through both positive and formulative for a green dog. It is against the rules to train in the ring and absolutely could get you a warning or major points off if the judge catches you doing something that they see are training. Even when the dog has already NQ'd. But there are other judges who will tell you to go ahead and do a second command once a dog has failed an exercise. Among else.

Another judge - not your breeder, but a different golden retriever breeder judge went over and above to really help a friend of mine whose dog balked about the broad jump. He let her repeat the jump 3 times. Meaning he told her to go back and do it again. It was the last exercise and the dog had been close to perfect on everything else... and this man was simply very kind and loved the sport and loves the breed. Again, training in the ring. Against the rules. But there's areas where people looking for stuff to criticize need to loosen up. 

All this btw... is completely different from other judges who again will warn you if they see you do anything between exercises that looks like training. And some people do get hit. If not for "training", then for having a dog who is not under control (with them defining stuff like aerial leaps in place as being out of control).


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Megora said:


> Do you consider family members, training buddies, etc... sitting outside the ring to be cheating?
> 
> Because that means majority of trainers out there are cheating.
> 
> ...


What I mean is the double handling. Nobody should be intentionally reinforcing anything from outside the ring. That's all. I have personally never seen it happen in obedience, nor have I looked for it. 

My girl's breeder will allow you to complete your run after the dog has NQ'ed. She is great to show to. Very fair.

Ive never seen a judge allow someone to repeat an exercise during a trial. I have seen judges take a moment after a bad run to tell the competitor what they saw. Usually in UKC. 

For my dogs, friends are just part of the scenery at a trial. They sit and watch from the crating area.


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