# Point Calculation Question



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

That is a really good question for AKC!


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> That is a really good question for AKC!


LOL, I was hoping there was an easy answer! Luckily the next day is when my friend's dog won (from 9-12 dogs for his first points! whoo hoo) and it was definitely a major!!!


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> If a dog takes WD/BOW and wins the breed in this situation, how many points would he get in California? I saw this in a recent catalog and I can't figure out if the dog got a major or not (here is the point schedule) For a major in bitches you need 23 and in dogs you need 21.
> 
> Here's the count for the show:
> 9 dogs
> ...


No, he'd have to go breed for any of the specials to be counted. He just gets his BOW.

I don't see how you got that he beat 3 additional specials...


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> No, he'd have to go breed for any of the specials to be counted. He just gets his BOW.
> 
> I don't see how you got that he beat 3 additional specials...


No, he won the breed as well. Sorry if that wasn't clear. He won WD/BOW/B. So he beat the 3 additional dog specials and 1 bitch special.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> No, he won the breed as well. Sorry if that wasn't clear. He won WD/BOW/B. So he beat the 3 additional dog specials and 1 bitch special.


 
Ahhh... then, you count the class dogs plus the champions. (Not the additional class bitches.)


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Easiest: 
*How To Figure Points If Your Class Dog or Bitch Goes Best of Breed*

Count regular class dogs in your sex, plus all move ups & Champions of both sexes entered for Best of Breed competition. Absentees do not count.


American Kennel Club - How to Count Points at AKC Dog Shows


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

So then it would be 2 points because you count the 9 dogs plus the 4 specials plus the WB for a total of 14 defeated which (in CA) is 2 points for dogs? Kind of weird that if the WB won the breed she would have won a major, but the WD/BOW didn't.

I think this is the most confusing point calculation I've ever seen, btw. Not that I've seen so many, but the ones I've seen have been fairly simple!


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> So then it would be 2 points because you count the 9 dogs plus the 4 specials plus the WB for a total of 14 defeated which (in CA) is 2 points for dogs? Kind of weird that if the WB won the breed she would have won a major, but the WD/BOW didn't.
> 
> I think this is the most confusing point calculation I've ever seen, btw. Not that I've seen so many, but the ones I've seen have been fairly simple!


 
It wasn't a major in bitches. There were only 20 bitches.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> It wasn't a major in bitches. There were only 20 bitches.


Right but if she had won the breed she would have defeated the 20 bitches plus the 4 champions plus the WD for a total of 25 dogs defeated and gotten a 3 point major, right? Or am I completely hallucinating?


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Who's on first? :


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Seriously! But I'm right, right? If the WB won the breed she would have won a 3 point major?


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Seriously! But I'm right, right? If the WB won the breed she would have won a 3 point major?


Yes, _she _would have. But, she didn't, so there was no major.


----------



## jtom (Jan 31, 2011)

This came off of the AKC website hopefully it will answer your question's


The Points toward a Championship shall be awarded to the Winners Dog and Bitch of each breed or variety based on the actual number of dogs or bitches competing in that breed or variety.

If the dog designated Winners Dog of Winners Bitch is also awarded Best of Breed or Variety, the dogs of both sexes that have been entered for Best of Breed of Variety competition and that have been defeated in such competition, shall be counted in addition to the dogs that completed in the regular classes for its sex in calculating championship points. If the dog designated Winners Dog or Winners Bitch is also awarded Best of Opposite Sex to Best of Breed or Variety, the dogs of its
own sex that have been entered for Best of Breed or Variety competition that have been defeated in competition for Best of Opposite Sex, shall be counted in addition to the dogs that completed in the regular classes for its sex in calculating championship points.

After points have been computed for Winners Dog and Winners Bitch subject to the above two stipulations, the dog awarded the Best of Winners shall be credited with the number of points calculated for Winners Dog or Winners Bitch, whichever is greater.

In counting the number of eligible dogs in competition, a dog that is disqualified, or that is dismissed, excused or ordered from the ring by the judge, or from which all awards are withheld shall not be included. Any dog which shall have won fifteen points shall become a Champion of Record, if six or more of said points shall have been won at two shows with a rating of three or more championship points each and under two different judges, and some one or more of the balance of said points shall have been won under some other judge or judges than the two judges referred to above.


Retrievers (Golden) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4- 13 16- 23 28- 31 37- 47 55


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok, so I have a related point question. Say someone shows a rare breed and that is the only dog entered for that breed so it is an automatic BOB. If that dog places in the group over other breeds that had majors, that dog will get a major even though it never beat any other dogs in its breed--right?


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

GoldenSail said:


> Ok, so I have a related point question. Say someone shows a rare breed and that is the only dog entered for that breed so it is an automatic BOB. If that dog places in the group over other breeds that had majors, that dog will get a major even though it never beat any other dogs in its breed--right?


Has to WIN the group.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

That's interesting, but then for purposes of rankings if they got a Group 3 or something they would still get credit for the number of dogs defeated, but not get any points?


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Now, if this dog did beat some of its own breed but not enough for a major but placed in group but did not win over other breeds that did have major would that dog get a major? That came up and the last show I went to, and if I remember right I was told that if the bitch had just placed (she made the cut, but didn't place) she would have gotten a major from another breed.


----------



## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Originally Posted by *goldenjackpuppy*  
_If a dog takes WD/BOW and wins the breed in this situation, how many points would he get in California? I saw this in a recent catalog and I can't figure out if the dog got a major or not (here is the point schedule) For a major in bitches you need 23 and in dogs you need 21.

Here's the count for the show:
9 dogs 
20 bitches
3 dog specials
1 bitch special

So the dog definitely crossed over and got 2 points from winning BOW, but do the 3 dogs in the breed also count to make it a major? i.e. now he's beaten the 20 bitches plus the 3 additional specials for a total of 23? Or does he just get 2 points and that's the end of it because there would need to be 12 dog specials in the breed class to make it a major?_

_You are a little confused in how points are calculated and what each designation means. BOW is a competition ONLY between winners bitch and winners dog. It is done ONLY to decide who is better-if there is a difference in the points awarded from each sex on that day, then BOW will get the higher point total. That is it-end of story It has no bearing on how many dogs are beat, etc._

_The dog beat 9 dogs for WD, 3 dog specials and 1 bitch special. So, the dog only beat 12 dogs-as you cannot beat yourself. This is no where close to the 20 DOGS needed(dogs meaning MALE DOGS) that would be needed to be awarded a major._

_Hope this makes sense to you now)_

_Jennifer Craig_
_GRCA Conformation Statistician for the last 9 years  _


----------



## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Now, if this dog did beat some of its own breed but not enough for a major but placed in group but did not win over other breeds that did have major would that dog get a major? That came up and the last show I went to, and if I remember right I was told that if the bitch had just placed (she made the cut, but didn't place) she would have gotten a major from another breed.


 

No-the only way you can get a major from the Group is by being Awarded Group 1 and there has to have been majors in some other breed that day. For example, in the sporting group, we have the pointers, retrievers, setters and spaniels. If it was a 3 point major in Brittany's that day, the dog who went BOB from the classes and Group 1 would get a major. However, if none of the sporting breeds had majors that day, the dog would still not get a major for going Group 1.

Jennifer Craig
Conformation Statistician hat on again)


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> That's interesting, but then for purposes of rankings if they got a Group 3 or something they would still get credit for the number of dogs defeated, but not get any points?


That's correct.


----------



## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> That's interesting, but then for purposes of rankings if they got a Group 3 or something they would still get credit for the number of dogs defeated, but not get any points?


 

Rankings and points are entirely 2 diferent things. I have been the GRCA Conformation Statistician for over 9 years. I have yet to see a dog who didn't have it's championship be in the rankings unless it is for a week or so at the beginning of the year because they had a good weekend.

If you are talking about rankings for club awards, then you would need to consult the club by laws about how the rankings are done as it seems that each club has their own way of doing things.

For the purpose of your question, yes, the dog in question would be awardeded dogs defeated for the group 3 win but there would be no points awarded toward a Championship, if the dog didn't already have its championship. Dogs defeated is the only time that a MALE dog would get dogs defeated for a different sex........

In your example for dogs defeated:
9 male dogs
20 bitches
3 dog specials
1 bitch special

A dog would be awarded 32 dogs defeated because again-you cannot defeat yourself.


Jennifer


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

hvgoldens4 said:


> because again-you cannot defeat yourself.
> 
> 
> Jennifer


 
Oh, I dunno about that... I've defeated myself _plenty _of times


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

hvgoldens4 said:


> _You are a little confused in how points are calculated and what each designation means. BOW is a competition ONLY between winners bitch and winners dog. It is done ONLY to decide who is better-if there is a difference in the points awarded from each sex on that day, then BOW will get the higher point total. That is it-end of story It has no bearing on how many dogs are beat, etc._
> 
> _The dog beat 9 dogs for WD, 3 dog specials and 1 bitch special. So, the dog only beat 12 dogs-as you cannot beat yourself. This is no where close to the 20 DOGS needed(dogs meaning MALE DOGS) that would be needed to be awarded a major._
> 
> ...


Yes, I understand now.  It just seemed strange that if the WB had done the same thing (won BOW and BOB) then it would have been a major for her...but I understand PG's and your answers. Clearly I haven't had a dog/bitch of my own make it that far (fingers crossed that I do at some point) but it's good to know for future reference. Thanks for putting on your statistician hat


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

not about points or rankings but, if your dog takes BOW, isn't he in theory the best class dog there on that day, since he was judged to be better than all the other dogs and also better than the best of the bitches?
That's always been my understanding, which is why I've thought of BOW as quite an honor.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Yes, I understand now.


Wow! You're _good. _31 years (as of yesterday) being married to me, The Dogfather _still _doesn't understand, and his standard reply when I tell him we've gone WD/BOW or whatever is, "That's good, right?"


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> not about points or rankings but, if your dog takes BOW, isn't he in theory the best class dog there on that day, since he was judged to be better than all the other dogs and also better than the best of the bitches?
> That's always been my understanding, which is why I've thought of BOW as quite an honor.



Exactly.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Wow! You're _good. _31 yeas (as of yesterday) being married to me, The Dogfather _still _doesn't understand, and his standard reply when I tell him we gone WD/BOW or whatever is, "That's good, right?"


I've been trying, some of it is not so easy though... learning through trial and error I guess  And when I say "I understand" I actually only mean THIS particular calculation. Throw another one at me (add in a group placement!) and I'll be dumbfounded again even though I know it was just explained! I know I can always rely on all you experienced folk to help though :


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm still trying to get my husband to understand that obedience and conformation are different


----------

