# Help- Opinions on Training Collars



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

What is it for?


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## rob1 (Sep 21, 2009)

Field training? It's the only venue I wouldn't immediately say 'no' to. And even then, I personally would say 'no' to using one on Lucky. But at least I would still consider using that trainer.

(No experience with them myself, but my Dad used them when he was field trialing on some of his dogs. Pointers & Setters- not Goldens.)


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## Bosn'sMom (Feb 11, 2013)

It would be used for loose leash walking (he still pulls using a harness) as well as other general training around the house.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

*There are some videos on this thread posted by solinvictus. http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/...ose-leash.html (Teaching loose leash)
Try this method first. It got me to convert a dog with 12yrs of pulling experience into a completely loose leash walker. I'd say I got him 80% of the way there in under 2 weeks and it did take another month or so to really get him fine tuned. It takes more effort on your part, but it works great.*


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## rob1 (Sep 21, 2009)

Opinions will differ, but I can't imagine using one for that and I personally wouldn't be keen on a trainer who suggested it as an option. Particularly not if you hadn't exhausted alternatives. And there are lots of positive reinforcement focused alternatives.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Bosn'sMom said:


> It would be used for loose leash walking (he still pulls using a harness) as well as other general training around the house.


My gut instinct in that case (I'm not anti ecollars if you are doing field training or some major league off leash hiking training) is - absolutely not. 

And that's based on one of my neighbors who I run into from time to time when we are out walking. I know she's not that far because I hear her dog yelping from the ecollar. The dog is very dog-aggressive - and I don't know if that is caused by mom zapping him every time there's a dog in sight, or if he started out that way.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Shock collars raise stress hormones in dogs, and can make them very neurotic if they are not properly conditioned to them. We deal with the fall out from electronic collars often in our training center. There are so many other effective ways of training a dog- why risk harm to your relationship with yours? New findings on shock collars: why the UK wants to ban them | Smart Animal Training Systems...

A good first step is to look for a happy, busy training center with trainers certified CPDT-KA. Many great trainers are not certified and some not so good ones are, but it is a useful starting place.


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## randomBvR (Dec 26, 2013)

No to the shock collar. For something simple like loose leash walking you should try a gentle leader. He'll hate it the first few days but then won't notice it. Much more humane. 

I will advise that it isn't supposed to train the dog, just makes it easier on the parents. It seemed to train my dog, though. 

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## Kirsten (Jun 18, 2013)

Unfortunately, I used one on my GSD a few years back. It was also suggested by my trainer and I didn't know what else to do. (My dog was literally dragging me when she saw another dog) I also tested it on myself and it really was just a vibration. But, oh man, it broke my heart every time I used it. Maylee would yelp and cry so hard, while still trying to go to the other dog. 

Come to find out ( after meeting with a behaviorist) it was fear based, so using the ecollar was probably the worst thing I could be doing! I have gotten the best results through positive reinforcement, but it has been slow going and A LOT of work. Have you tried the Easy Walk harness? ( the one the clips in the front) I used that, will a lot of high value treats, to discourage the pulling. After years, I finally can use a normal flat collar and leash with no pulling


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## golfgal (Dec 31, 2013)

Everything I've read seems to suggest the harness collars only encourage dogs that are pullers to pull. No to the shock collar, however I'd look for another trainer to help with a regular collar and loose leash walking. I would consider a soft martingale first before going to other options. imho.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I am not familiar with your trainer or that specific collar but if you have the right trainer who properly collar conditions your dog, you can successfully train a hard puller to walk off leash. I have had excellent results using the collar.

Also if your dog yelps while using an electronic collar he was not properly conditioned.

A harness that attaches to the back of a dog will just make a dog pull stronger. If you decide to get a harness get the type that attaches in front.


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## thorbreafortuna (Jun 9, 2013)

golfgal said:


> Everything I've read seems to suggest the harness collars only encourage dogs that are pullers to pull.



This is true of the traditional harness with the leash clipped to the back. Not so of the Easy Walk harness which attaches the leash to the front, making pulling counterproductive to the dog: it doesn't get him where he wants to go but rather sort of turns him towards you. It's not a panacea and you still have to do the training but it does help. It helped us enormously with Thor. Otherwise we used the method suggested by the video that was shared above and it has done wonders. He will still pull occasionally when too excited but it is no longer a daily thing, and improving every day.


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## NFexec (Jul 14, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I am not familiar with your trainer or that specific collar but if you have the right trainer who properly collar conditions your dog, you can successfully train a hard puller to walk off leash. I have had excellent results using the collar.
> 
> Also if your dog yelps while using an electronic collar he was not properly conditioned. A harness that attaches to the back of a dog will just make a dog pull stronger. If you decide to get a harness get the type that attaches in front.


I agree. While I respect the various opinions about whether or not to use an e-collar, I find most of the anti reasoning comes from those who have observed a dog that was not conditioned properly, or heard from others how horrible it can be. My (now 20 month old) girl was pretty unruly, would never "stay", she jumped on visitors and nibbled at their hands and clothes, and would not obey simple commands other than "sit". We hired a trainer who was very well versed in the use of this collar, and absolutely loves dogs. Greta learned very fast, and while she still has a lot of typical "golden" attributes, she is now very well trained and compliant with walks, sit and stay, come, etc. She is no worse for the wear (of the e-collar!) So My response to the OP is *it depends!*  It depends on the same conditions regardless of the type of training done. Who is doing the training, what is their experience with the specific method, how do they treat your dog and you, and do you feel really uncomfortable with their methods? Are you getting the results you seek in a reasonable time frame? 

A little yelping at the first exposure to the e-collar is natural. It doesn't mean the dog must have regular application of a "nick" as it's called. He/she will learn and modify his/her behavior with other verbal and body language cues, and proper use of the leash. That is also where proper training comes in. And you are correct - it really is not painful to us - it's an odd sensation that does attract attention, but it's not like zapping a dog with a stun gun!

You might appreciate the results. But do NOT just buy one yourself and expect the training to go well. It takes much more than a device to bring Fido up to snuff!

Doug, Linda & Greta


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

I use Ecollars every day so I'm not anti-Ecollar but, I don't think you need it for basic obedience. Normally I teach basic obedience prior to transitioning to the Ecollar.


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## ChasingChase (Feb 2, 2013)

I agree with NFexec, I feel that most people who are against ecollars have seen people who do not know how to use them properly, or heard stories of the like. Having said that, that's not to say I think the ecollar should be your first choice for basic training. I think it depends on the dog. Some dogs respond great to positive reinforcement, harnesses, different types of collars, while others do not and may still be unruly. Ecollars can be very effective for that type of personality, when used correctly. The important thing is that you train yourself on how to use it (working with trainer, watching the instructional video) before using it with your dog. Also, your dog needs to know the commands you're asking him or her to do before you bring the collar into the picture. If you want your dog to heel, your dog needs to know what heel means and what you expect when you say heel. Then, when you introduce the nick, your dog will understand why he or she is being nicked. If the collar isn't used this way, your dog won't understand why they are being nicked, which could cause a fear based reaction or high stress/anxiety. The collar does not teach the dog, but reinforces the behavior you expect and that your dog already knows. I say do your research and make your own educated decision. Good luck!


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## Bosn'sMom (Feb 11, 2013)

Wow- you have all been SO helpful!!! Thank you so much!!!

I will say when the trainer was there with the e collar Bo never once seemed uncomfortable. We would be using it more than for just loose leash walking- also "drop it" (he likes to pick up rocks), no jumping on people when they come in the house, and a few other things.

We haven't decided to go with it yet. Ive always been against the e collar so I want to exhaust more options first. 

thank you again for all your opinions!


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

Goldens are incredibly smart, desirous to please dog. I have trained all of mine with positive reinforcement methods and don't see a need for shocking them into obedience.
My humble opinion.


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## BriGuy (Aug 31, 2010)

Bosn'sMom said:


> We are exploring some new trainers for our teenage pup (17 months)


Where in MA are you located? I, or someone else, might be able to point you in the direction of a good trainer if you aren't happy with this one.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I use an ecollar for a lot of things.
1. Off leash walking I can recall my dogs if they are too far away to hear me.
2. My young dog Lucy is terribly hard on my dog Reilly. He has very bad joint problems. When we are walking off leash, she will jump on him and hurt him and make him cry. I use the ecollar and say leave it. So she will stop. Often she is too far away for me to do a correction.
3. Fieldwork.
4. Forced fetch. 

There are many uses. I've never tried for basic loose leash walking since my dogs spend so much time off leash.


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

I have all my Golden's trained for Hunt Tests and waterfowl hunting. Using an ecollar is used by all most all hunters and Field Trial Dogs and Hunt Test Dogs. They are used primarily for safety to correct a dog that is headed for danger (e.g. fence), or chasing an animal. They are often beyond voice or whistle range and the ecollar, if the dog and handler are properly trained, can be used to get the attention of the dog and get him to come.

I have never seen an ecollar used for training heel or walking with a dog! We generally use a pinch collar or choke collar for this step in training. I personally use a pinch collar as it does not constrict the dogs neck, it only pinches the skin/fur to give the dog a correction for pulling or what ever you are training. 

Using any of these techniques without professional training and conditioning of the dog is dangerous and can cause physical damage and/or behavioral problems. Do not attempt using them without qualified help.


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## ChasingChase (Feb 2, 2013)

I think some people should be a little more open minded and realize that while positive reinforcement worked for your dog as well as many others, all dogs are different and do not act the same way your dog acts. And yes, positive reinforcement should always be the first method for training. But it doesn't work for every single dog out there. Just had to add this because I think some people do not choose their words carefully and believe that their way is always the best way or that they know more than others. 


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Bosn'sMom said:


> Wow- you have all been SO helpful!!! Thank you so much!!!
> 
> *I will say when the trainer was there with the e collar Bo never once seemed uncomfortable. *We would be using it more than for just loose leash walking- also "drop it" (he likes to pick up rocks), no jumping on people when they come in the house, and a few other things.
> 
> ...


 
Sounds like you are doing your homework! Has the trainer used it on him yet? Pulling on the leash, not dropping rocks, and jumping on people all can be dangerous especially with big dogs like goldens. The ecollar is a great reinforcement tool. Not all dogs are equal. FWIW I was also against them until I actually experienced awesome results with my boys. Nobody here is saying slap the collar on the dog and push the button. I highly recommend first hand experience to see for "yourself" how successful this tool is used for training problems without any ill side effects. Good luck!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Bosn'sMom said:


> It would be used for loose leash walking (he still pulls using a harness) as well as other general training around the house.


For these kinds of things, an e-collar isn't a terribly useful tool, and if you just put it on the dog and use it to tell him when he's wrong, you run a pretty heavy risk of side effects. You can see in this thread that even the experienced trainers who use e-collars don't recommend it for these kinds of issues, and when they do use it for more advanced things like distance handling, the dog is carefully conditioned first.

Loose leash walking is much easier on the dog if you teach him what you want to do rather than focusing on what you don't want to do. Show him where you want him and reward him there, rather than making his life unpleasant when he pulls.

In terms of other stuff, like jumping on company, etc., e-collars can backfire pretty badly. If you just push the button when your dog jumps on company, you can create a neurotic dog or even an aggressive one without doing much about the jumping. Just like with loose leash walking, it's often easier and faster (and nicer!) to teach the dog what you want him to do rather than punishing him for you don't want him to do.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Kirsten said:


> Unfortunately, I used one on my GSD a few years back. It was also suggested by my trainer and I didn't know what else to do. (My dog was literally dragging me when she saw another dog) I also tested it on myself and it really was just a vibration. But, oh man, it broke my heart every time I used it. Maylee would yelp and cry so hard, while still trying to go to the other dog.
> 
> Come to find out ( after meeting with a behaviorist) it was fear based, so using the ecollar was probably the worst thing I could be doing! I have gotten the best results through positive reinforcement, but it has been slow going and A LOT of work. Have you tried the Easy Walk harness? ( the one the clips in the front) I used that, will a lot of high value treats, to discourage the pulling. After years, I finally can use a normal flat collar and leash with no pulling


Thanks for sharing this story. It is all too common.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> Thanks for sharing this story. It is all too common.


It is blatant misuse of an e-collar. I am sorry the poster ended up with such a poor trainer for her dog. 

If the dog is vocalizing and not responding to ANY corrective method you happen to be using why would you continue doing it. 
Poor training advice is just that. It has absolutely nothing to do with the tools used.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Have you tried an heeling stick yet? I use that in conjuction with a thin chain collar. The noise from the chain is all they need and the heeling stick is great because I swish it in front of them to stop them from pulling me when they start to pull. It never touches them but they don't like it so they back up and then I praise them when they are in the correct position. It works really well for me. Once that has been established I start using them less and less until they don't need it anymore.


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## Bosn'sMom (Feb 11, 2013)

What is a heeling stick? Can you attach a link?


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## Bosn'sMom (Feb 11, 2013)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Sounds like you are doing your homework! Has the trainer used it on him yet? Pulling on the leash, not dropping rocks, and jumping on people all can be dangerous especially with big dogs like goldens. The ecollar is a great reinforcement tool. Not all dogs are equal. FWIW I was also against them until I actually experienced awesome results with my boys. Nobody here is saying slap the collar on the dog and push the button. I highly recommend first hand experience to see for "yourself" how successful this tool is used for training problems without any ill side effects. Good luck!



Thank you! LOTS of homework is going into this. I made the trainer put the collar on my arm so i could feel it, and then we did a quick walk with Bo with it on and i was watching how high the trainer was putting the vibrations up to. Bo was heeling like a pro.. hes NEVER done that before. 

The trainer comes recommended by 3 people we know- but i want to make 100% sure this is a route we want to go because i have always been against it. I do this this seems safer though than a pinch collar. 

My first dog.. treating him like my baby


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## Bosn'sMom (Feb 11, 2013)

BriGuy said:


> Where in MA are you located? I, or someone else, might be able to point you in the direction of a good trainer if you aren't happy with this one.



we are on the south shore!


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## dezymond (May 3, 2012)

I've done my research on e-collars/shock collars extensively. In the end I have opted against it because in all honesty, I don't put enough effort and time into training Maverick as much I should. Don't get me wrong he is a well trained dog, but outside of our classes we don't really practice as much as we should and that is all my fault. I figured the time it would take me to use new training techniques with a $200+ collar I could use that same time with the same training techniques I use now. 

We started hiking on a consistent basis for the past few months and I've again debated the e-collar, but his recall is quite good so it's just a matter of more training and consistency from me. I'm not at all against shock collars (unless wrongfully used), but for now it just doesn't fit my needs. Again, for my specific case it's not about the tools but the time and consistency.

For every story I hear of the collar ruining the dog though, I've heard about 5 more that lead to a well trained dog even without the e-collar on.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Is this far from you? MasterPeace Dog Training


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

this is kind of what I use but mine has a frayed end to it
Avery Heeling Stick. $14.99.


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## Bosn'sMom (Feb 11, 2013)

okay, not to sound dumb but i've just never heard of a heeling stick before. How is it used?


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## dezymond (May 3, 2012)

Bosn'sMom said:


> okay, not to sound dumb but i've just never heard of a heeling stick before. How is it used?


It basically acts almost like a portable wall. It helps you guide your dog to where you want them to be.

Here's an example and many more like it on youtube:


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

I've never used an ecollar, but I do have a friend who used one to break her dogs of chasing wildlife with great success. No lasting ill effects, no mental trauma. Only thing is that her dogs became collar smart very fast, and so every once in a while (less and less as time goes on) they need to wear the collar again for a 'tune-up'. That's my only experience with these collars, but I wouldn't rule it out if I thought my boys might benefit from it in some way. 


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

what that video showed wasn't how I use mine. I work dogs all day long 3 to 5 days a week depending on what my boss is doing that day. I walk my dogs on a long lead and a choke chain that is loose. I keep my heeling stick on my shoulder and I keep their lead loose. When the pull ahead I first say no heel and I then pull them back with the chain. If they continue to pull then I pull out the heeling stick and pop it in front of them. They do not like it and pull back immediately. Then I praise them for being in the right position.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

It is fun to train a dog with no punishment or aversives, and it is just as effective. You don't need big equipment to train simple basics, but just great timing and quick feedback.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I love Pat Miller's positive methods. Max has fun going there.

https://www.peaceablepaws.com/referrals.php?type=pmctReferral


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I believe that a shock collar is appropriate in a very limited setting, however research is showing that the negative fallout from misuse is serious.

My favorite statement about the use of shock collars is from Ian Dunbar, where he wrote 

_To use shock as an effective dog training method you will need:
A thorough understanding of canine behavior.
A thorough understanding of learning theory.
Impeccable timing.
And if you have those three things, you don't need a shock collar.

_I have used a shock collar to stop Selli from chasing deer ONLY to break through deer focus and turn back to me. 
​


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

When tools are banned by entire regions and countries, that is pretty intense.
Quebec Bans Shock and Prong Dog Collars | The Dogington Post


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Selli-Belle said:


> I believe that a shock collar is appropriate in a very limited setting, however research is showing that the negative fallout from misuse is serious.
> 
> My favorite statement about the use of shock collars is from Ian Dunbar, where he wrote
> 
> ...


_

Agreed. While I don't advocate the use of shock collars at all, IF they are going to be used it should only be in the hands of a very experienced trainer or behaviorist. The negative fallout of misuse is no joke, whereas with training using positive methods, if you screw up the worst that happens is your dog gets an extra treat and you have to redo an exercise._​


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

CharlieBear80 said:


> whereas with training using positive methods, if you screw up the worst that happens is your dog gets an extra treat and you have to redo an exercise.


Well, that is not always the case either. A failure to succeed could very well cost a dog its home or its life. 

NEVER dismiss a training tool. You may not need it to train the dog at the end of YOUR leash, but that doesn't mean that someone else may find it works well for the dog at the end of THEIR leash. Then you have to consider that each owner has their own goals, aspirations and expectations for their dog. Their goals may be very different from yours. 

While adding some extra treats and repeating exercises may be acceptable for you with your dog, other's may not accept the lack of progress with their dog. There are a whole lot of dogs that end up in shelters because the owners couldn't find success in training them. They wouldn't adapt to a method of training that they found politically incorrect, so instead they threw the dog away. In their mind the dog wasn't learning using their preferred training approach so the dog was defective. 

It is very beneficial to have a wide range of tools and methods at your disposal when training a dog. You never know when you're going to need something different.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> what that video showed wasn't how I use mine. I work dogs all day long 3 to 5 days a week depending on what my boss is doing that day. I walk my dogs on a long lead and a choke chain that is loose. I keep my heeling stick on my shoulder and I keep their lead loose. When the pull ahead I first say no heel and I then pull them back with the chain. If they continue to pull then I pull out the heeling stick and pop it in front of them. They do not like it and pull back immediately. Then I praise them for being in the right position.


How.... do you keep your dogs from grabbing the heeling stick? : My guys think all sticks are fair game - including walking sticks when I'm hiking with them.

Absolutely agree with Swampy - lots of owners out there who start out with a lot of dreams with their puppies.... and drop their expectations as the dogs do not shape up with a supposed "fit all" training method. There is no "fit all" training method for all dogs. The tragic thing is not just people who do not compete in sports with their dogs, because the dog lack the control or discipline they need.... but people who do not take their dogs out anywhere because they lack control and discipline.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> Well, that is not always the case either. A failure to succeed could very well cost a dog its home or its life.
> 
> NEVER dismiss a training tool. You may not need it to train the dog at the end of YOUR leash, but that doesn't mean that someone else may find it works well for the dog at the end of THEIR leash.


This logic could be used to justify _any_ training method or tool, including those that are now totally discredited by any dog training professional with a shred of credibility, like swatting dogs on the butt, hitting them with newspapers, or using a switch for "discipline." You'll notice nobody reaches for this defense when a "trainer" is pulling up on a choke chain so hard that the dog's feet leave the ground.

We absolutely dismiss training some "tools" out of hand. The question isn't whether or not we do it; the question is which ones we regard has having low potential for helping our dogs and high potential for hurting them. Go ahead and make the argument that this or that tool works well or has a low potential for side effects, but don't expect us to accept that all training methods and tools belong in the toolbox because we should _never_ dismiss a training tool.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Swampcollie said:


> Well, that is not always the case either. A failure to succeed could very well cost a dog its home or its life.
> 
> NEVER dismiss a training tool. You may not need it to train the dog at the end of YOUR leash, but that doesn't mean that someone else may find it works well for the dog at the end of THEIR leash. Then you have to consider that each owner has their own goals, aspirations and expectations for their dog. Their goals may be very different from yours.
> 
> ...


I can certainly appreciate your perspective on this, I guess I just disagree that in the sort of instance to which you are referring a shock collar would be the next logical step. But we can agree to disagree.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Megora said:


> How.... do you keep your dogs from grabbing the heeling stick? : My guys think all sticks are fair game - including walking sticks when I'm hiking with them.


Mine is made by a guy here that does that kind of thing and he has this frayed end that when you pop it out in front of them it makes a very loud swish. If they get their noses into that mess it hurts. It only takes one time for them to rush and try for it. when they get popped they they never ever try to lunge for it again. You have to be quick. The minute they start to pull I pop that thing in front of them, they back up and I tell them good. It is also effective for lagging as if you swish it in the back they speed up.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> We absolutely dismiss training some "tools" out of hand. The question isn't whether or not we do it; the question is which ones we regard has having low potential for helping our dogs and high potential for hurting them. Go ahead and make the argument that this or that tool works well or has a low potential for side effects, but don't expect us to accept that all training methods and tools belong in the toolbox because we should _never_ dismiss a training tool.


Assuming you train a dog with no aversives, and that inconvenient 'instinctive drift' kicks in and your dog is chasing wildlife 100 yards away. How do you interrupt this behavior? 
Or do you just accept it as poor training on your part?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

TrailDogs said:


> Assuming you train a dog with no aversives, and that inconvenient 'instinctive drift' kicks in and your dog is chasing wildlife 100 yards away. How do you interrupt this behavior?
> Or do you just accept it as poor training on your part?




You interupt this behavior in the 11 week old puppy as you are working as hard on recall as on housebreaking. 

In half a lifetime of hiking and tramping the woods with Tippykayak, I have many times seem him recall his dogs from deer & birds. Conversely, I have never seen his dogs blow him off.

Any adult golden bred to work in the woods and fields with humans should have a trustworthy recall without elaborate or high tech training tools. If your five year old has predatory drift and runs off into the woods and never comes back, ummmm, the old guys in Maine would say don't feed that dog. The golden's instinct should be to companion his human, so even if he gives chase a 100 yards, he will wheel himself around and check in.

This winter alone, my goldens and I have seen moose, bear, deer, rabbits, turkeys on our daily hike. I just had to call Finn from deer yesterday. His dad was a MH and he is a nice drivey golden, but he will turn on a dime and recall, and he did just that. Then again, he has seen them many, many times.

How do you justify a golden temperament that means he is foolish enough to bolt off for miles and not come back unless wearing an e collar?

This is a genuine question: How do you know ecollars don't allow dogs to succeed who are too hard and too hardheaded to meet the temperament standard of the golden? If you need an ecollar to simply recall a golden, that is either a failure of training or breeding, or the relationship between human and dog .


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

This topic is serious but funny at the same time, bc it always goes south in a similar way.

Next weekend, I am judging a high school policy debate. I genuinely think it would be construtive to use the rules of college debate and really dig into the controversial topic of ecollars within formal debate rules. An affirmative side, a negative side- Significance, Harms, Topicality, Solvency- all of it.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

TrailDogs said:


> Assuming you train a dog with no aversives, and that inconvenient 'instinctive drift' kicks in and your dog is chasing wildlife 100 yards away. How do you interrupt this behavior?
> Or do you just accept it as poor training on your part?


Well, what do you do once you've trained the dog and he no longer wears the e-collar? I assume the point of the e-collar is to train the dog, and then once he's trained, he responds when he's not wearing. Or do you always have an e-collar on your dog every time he's off lead for his entire life? I was under the impression that a main goal of any reputable e-collar program was that it didn't become a crutch for the entire life of the dog.

I rely on my dog's training when he's chasing wildlife. FYI-I don't let my dogs go an actual football field length from me when they're off lead in the woods, because that would start to be put them well out of sight and perhaps out of earshot and they're voice/whistle trained. So around 50 yards, I'd already have whistled to bring them back to my side before releasing again.

But within earshot (well over 50 yards), the training works in the face of whatever the New England woods have to offer: other dogs, people, joggers, deer, goose poop, ducks, doves, squirrels, you name it. You condition a dog to take an interruption to his attention, starting when he's young and working upwards through levels of distraction. The habit is what breaks through the instinct.

What do _you_ do when "instinctive drift" takes over? Just turn the e-collar all the way up and hit the button? I cannot imagine the amount of pain it would take to stop my dogs in their tracks when they're really driven. I would avoid that kind of situation at all costs, regardless of my training philosopy. Or have you conditioned the dog to take a much lower stimulus as an interruption to his attention? 'Cause if you can do that, I think you can teach him to take a whistle instead of a stim.

Sometimes I think some folks must be imagining us waving steaks at our dogs and hoping for the best. My dogs have practiced stopping at turning at the "hey you!" whistle pattern and turning on a time to the "come" whistle pattern their whole lives, and they've been reinforced in a lot of situations and in a lot of ways for it. That habit—not the cookie—breaks through distraction.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> This is a genuine question: How do you know ecollars don't allow dogs to succeed who are too hard and too hardheaded to meet the temperament standard of the golden? If you need an ecollar to simply recall a golden, that is either a failure of training or breeding, or the relationship between human and dog .


It is a valid question. I can tell you that a working bred golden generally has very high trainability in order to be successful. I don't believe that people are using e-collars on goldens in the field at the level you think they are. Your best bet would be to watch some good field trainers work their dogs and you will see the relationship, teamwork, and nice temperaments of these dogs.
The people I train with use attrition far more than collar corrections.
We ask a lot of these dogs and give them every opportunity to make the right decisions by giving them as much information as possible, which includes negative feedback if they are wrong. 
It is just a different training philosophy than what you are comfortable with. It is not a logical assumption to think these dogs are poorly bred or untrainable.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

TrailDogs said:


> We ask a lot of these dogs and give them every opportunity to make the right decisions by giving them as much information as possible, which includes negative feedback if they are wrong.


Interestingly enough, I would say that I give my dogs negative feedback too, just not in the form of something that involves an unpleasant physical sensation. They learn pretty quick that silence, a reset, or a lack of reward means they need to try something else.


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## ChasingChase (Feb 2, 2013)

Again, each dog is different. I feel that this topic has gone in a different direction than the OP was hoping for. It is not beneficial to be arguing our own opinions and putting others down, but we should share our training experience and leave it up to the OP to take from it. Everyone has their own opinion and everyone's dog is different. There is not only one correct way of doing things. It's great for the OP to become as educated as possible on all of the different training possibilities, and choose which one would best fit them and their dog. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Mine is made by a guy here that does that kind of thing and he has this frayed end that when you pop it out in front of them it makes a very loud swish. If they get their noses into that mess it hurts. It only takes one time for them to rush and try for it. when they get popped they they never ever try to lunge for it again. You have to be quick. The minute they start to pull I pop that thing in front of them, they back up and I tell them good. It is also effective for lagging as if you swish it in the back they speed up.


And you never have any avoidance behaviors? 

Funny story - with Bertie, I showed him a stuffed owl freaky deaky thing I got for Christmas. And the beak poked him in the nose. He jumped back and to this day, he flakes out if I pick up that owl. 

If I swung a crop whip (which is what the heeling stick sounds like it is, particularly with the frayed end)... and it caught Bertie on the nose, there is no way he'd walk in heel position if I had that stick out.

This doesn't mean the stick doesn't work for ALL dogs. It means it would not work for mine.

And this is something people need to consider, especially if they teach classes to pet people. There is no "one miraculous method" which works on all dogs. 

The types of people I take classes with - they believe in a toolbox. And this toolbox may have treats, praise, motivational stuff.... and there will be ecollars, prongs, corrections.... stuff in there as well. They are not used uniformly. They are used per dog and per situation. 

I personally think that people just need to STOP all of the arguing and yakking. And if people use a method that you do not personally use - let the people who DO use the method give the advice needed. Especially when they have done STUFF and titled their dogs while using those methods and know exactly what they are talking about? 

I think it's important to note on this thread that Swampy - who does use ecollars for training his dogs - recommended not using an ecollar in this particular case. He stated as MOST DO - basic obedience training comes first.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> I personally think that people just need to STOP all of the arguing and yakking. And if people use a method that you do not personally use - let the people who DO use the method give the advice needed. Especially when they have done STUFF and titled their dogs while using those methods and know exactly what they are talking about?


The issue is that some of us live with the fallout from certain tools and methods, so when a person who is new to training comes and asks about the pros and cons of something, you end up feeling a responsibility to the person, and even more so to their dog, to keep them away from the pitfalls that you've seen other people and their dogs fall into. And it can be so hard to undo some of that damage.

So if somebody seems to be on the path to doing something that I've seen hurt a dog or a dog's relationship with people, it's no so easy to live and let live and shut up and let people make suggestions that have worked for them but have backfired for a dozen people you know personally and dogs you've helped rehab.

And nobody can stop a person from posting in this thread with whatever advice you want. Suggesting that there might be problems with a method or that there might be a better way doesn't prevent anybody from giving whatever advice they please.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Many years ago, long before my Laney attained her UD, she was at work with me. She was running inside the building when a tech opened the back door and out she ran... She ran straight for the very busy Route One.. I screamed for her and thought there we are, she will go onto this busy road and get hit... At the last minute, she turned and came to me. I have to say, I considered "collar conditioning" to insure this would never happen again... Ultimately in her case what fixed it was continued training.. She got her UD and always came when called...


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Well, you might say it is good for people who use e collars to teach pet pups their basics be the ones to answer what is the best training collar questions, and I might say it is good to let the people in the trenches who are actually training 200 tor 300 pet dogs a week answer pet dog training questions, but the beauty of the forum set up is everyone gets to give their opinions.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Megora said:


> I personally think that people just need to STOP all of the arguing and yakking. And if people use a method that you do not personally use - let the people who DO use the method give the advice needed. Especially when they have done STUFF and titled their dogs while using those methods and know exactly what they are talking about?


Really? And I was just coming back to this thread to say that I thought everyone was conducting themselves in such a nice manner about the topic and how great that is. I truly appreciate seeing both sides of the argument, I think it's beneficial for everyone.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

You are right about the avoidance issues with some dogs and my girl is one of them. I've noticed it is worse with the goldens than the other dog breeds I work with. But for me, I get kind of annoyed with that avoidance stuff. It isn't that I don't feel for them but after a while I think, hey, get over it, and trust me. We are training for hunt so there are a lot of things in the field that can spook my girls and have spooked them, so for me this crop whip (and yes it is more similar to that) is another way to train them. I don't let them get away with being fearful of it to that point of cowering. I hold them forward if they pull back too far with their lead and tell them good good. It desensitizes them and helps in other areas because I use the same no nonsense lingo when something in the field spooks them. I don't want to baby them, then they think they really do have something to fear. 
Now the dogs see the stick and they just know it is their limiter and perform extra good when it is out but do not act fearful any longer. 




Megora said:


> And you never have any avoidance behaviors?
> 
> Funny story - with Bertie, I showed him a stuffed owl freaky deaky thing I got for Christmas. And the beak poked him in the nose. He jumped back and to this day, he flakes out if I pick up that owl.
> 
> ...


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Curiosity here - do you work a lot with other breeds who are more tolerant of a crop whip and such? 



MillionsofPeaches said:


> You are right about the avoidance issues with some dogs and my girl is one of them. I've noticed it is worse with the goldens than the other dog breeds I work with. But for me, I get kind of annoyed with that avoidance stuff. It isn't that I don't feel for them but after a while I think, hey, get over it, and trust me. We are training for hunt so there are a lot of things in the field that can spook my girls and have spooked them, so for me this crop whip (and yes it is more similar to that) is another way to train them. I don't let them get away with being fearful of it to that point of cowering. I hold them forward if they pull back too far with their lead and tell them good good. It desensitizes them and helps in other areas because I use the same no nonsense lingo when something in the field spooks them. I don't want to baby them, then they think they really do have something to fear.
> Now the dogs see the stick and they just know it is their limiter and perform extra good when it is out but do not act fearful any longer.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

not really, there are dogs in different breeds that are more confident than other dogs just not as much. But hey, like the other poster said, what works for some dogs doesn't on the other. I just know what works with mine and that is all I was offering up. An alternative to the same old freaking ecollar melodrama that takes place on this forum every other week.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> You are right about the avoidance issues with some dogs and my girl is one of them. I've noticed it is worse with the goldens than the other dog breeds I work with. But for me, I get kind of annoyed with that avoidance stuff. It isn't that I don't feel for them but after a while I think, hey, get over it, and trust me. We are training for hunt so there are a lot of things in the field that can spook my girls and have spooked them, so for me this crop whip (and yes it is more similar to that) is another way to train them. I don't let them get away with being fearful of it to that point of cowering. I hold them forward if they pull back too far with their lead and tell them good good. It desensitizes them and helps in other areas because I use the same no nonsense lingo when something in the field spooks them. I don't want to baby them, then they think they really do have something to fear.
> *Now the dogs see the stick and they just know it is their limiter and perform extra good when it is out but do not act fearful any longer*.


So your dog has learned that when they see this whip they'd better behave. 

I know some here hate border collies, but allow me one particular example.

There is such a thing as situational learning. The dog learns something in a situation not because of a desire of team up but because of a desire to avoid negative stimuli. Good example of this, that I have seen and experienced plenty, is the dog who blows off whistles at a 500 yard outrun or during the cross drive. He knows that, in a trial, the handler won't leave the post to correct him so he takes the sheep on a merry chase along the field because...well....the handler won't give up the run. I can tell you that I'll never forget Dru's expression of "Oh sh1t the fun has ended..." when I left my post, gave up the run, went to him, leashed him, and walked the walk of shame out of the field, into the car, intending to drive away, humiliated, and several people came up to me telling me that I'd done the right thing for the sake of future trials. You know where we were for the following three months? Back to step 1 - WHEN.I.SAY.LIE.DOWN.YOU.LIE.DOWN. The result? Dru learned that there was no thing as situational learning and that I would in fact leave a trial and take his sheep away (his most horrible punishment) if he did not listen.

So I don't want to have to rely on the existence of a stick, collar, whatever to get my dog to listen. I want him to team up because he has made the decision to team up through training, even if it takes time. I had intended to put Max in field, but I haven't found one person near me who won't train without aversives. So simple, I don't train. 

And to answer someone else's question as to what to do if the dog doesn't listen to a whistle or command, you go back, like I did, to step 1 - WHEN.I.SAY.COME.TO.ME.YOU.COME.TO.ME and you do this at close range. That concept is applicable to any training of any animal, any person, any situation, anywhere. You can't advance to step 8 until you have mastered steps 1-7. And if you fail at step 8, get the ground work done first which may include losing time. And if it's too much of a loss to lose time to help the dog make the right decisions by getting the basics down, then the desire is not so much to train the dog to do what it was meant to do, it is personal ambition to get as many titles under your belt and done as fast as possible and the fallout be [email protected]

To the OP, and to answer the original question, I personally would train without the use of aversives. I posted listings for Pat Miller certified trainers and I would suggest contacting them.


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

I believe the true objective of any person teaching and expecting Obedience from their dogs, is to build a strong, true bond with their dog. The use of whips, prongs and e-collars, and even the use of food rewards, is all secondary to the desire of the dog to do what they know their owner wants. At all times, in all circumstances. 

This silent communication between owner and dog has nothing to do with tools.
It is the integral relationship that is built between owner and dog from the first day they meet, and it is the only *true *thing of importance in obedience training. 

My last dog Homer could be called of a squirrel, deer, bear, rabbit, or drop anything he was told, or stop on a dime in any situation. Before he did anything, he would turn to look at me and ask permission.
Never once did I use an aversive tool on him. His gentle spirit would have been offended. And positive reward training was nothing I knew of, so food rewards were not employed. He and I just built an incredibly strong relationship as we worked on teaching him what was expected every day.

To me, the issue of what tools should be used is secondary. The first and maybe the ONLY tool you will ever need is that bond.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

you are absolutely correct and that is why the stick is phased out (as well as the chain collar) after a few weeks. The dogs are excited to get the praise without the stick and there it rolls over to pleasing me and not being afraid of the aids I'm initially using to establish their boundaries. I can pretty much do anything with my girl at heel now, that includes neighborhood walks with dogs around and kids around, mile runs with her by my side, walking to a line with her heeling, ect. So for my experience, it is wonderful. I hated food and balls to teach her because she couldn't focus on anything but those things for some reason. I'm using her as my example here. She has yet to be collar conditioned and I'm not even sure when that or if that will ever happen but I am not opposed to that under the right circumstances. 
And that is NOT to say that I still don't have to remind her on occasion with a loud EH! when she forgets to heel as we approach something that grabs her interest but after that she immediately backs up next to me. 



Lilliam said:


> So your dog has learned that when they see this whip they'd better behave.
> 
> I know some here hate border collies, but allow me one particular example.
> 
> ...


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> you are absolutely correct and that is why the stick is phased out (as well as the chain collar) after a few weeks. The dogs are excited to get the praise without the stick and there it rolls over to pleasing me and not being afraid of the aids I'm initially using to establish their boundaries. I can pretty much do anything with my girl at heel now, that includes neighborhood walks with dogs around and kids around, mile runs with her by my side, walking to a line with her heeling, ect. So for my experience, it is wonderful. I hated food and balls to teach her because she couldn't focus on anything but those things for some reason. I'm using her as my example here. She has yet to be collar conditioned and I'm not even sure when that or if that will ever happen but I am not opposed to that under the right circumstances.
> And that is NOT to say that I still don't have to remind her on occasion with a loud EH! when she forgets to heel as we approach something that grabs her interest but after that she immediately backs up next to me.



For training dogs to focus on me, I train "watch me" as the puppy is young. They are very happy to get the treat initially, and then I phase out the treat and I'm left with a dog who will focus on me when I simply say "watch me."

Again this is taught when the pup is young, at close range.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> The issue is that some of us live with the fallout from certain tools and methods, so when a person who is new to training comes and asks about the pros and cons of something, you end up feeling a responsibility to the person, and even more so to their dog, to keep them away from the pitfalls that you've seen other people and their dogs fall into. And it can be so hard to undo some of that damage.


Yes, it is sad. I have seen more than one dog euthanized, dead, because they did not fit the mold of the training programs used at a teaching University with a behavior program near me. Once the drugs no longer worked and the trainers were unable to think outside the box, and use alternate training methods, the dogs were deemed failures. Not the trainers, the dogs, and they paid the ultimate price. The damage cannot be undone.
Very sad.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

TrailDogs said:


> Yes, it is sad. I have seen more than one dog euthanized, dead, because they did not fit the mold of the training programs used at a teaching University with a behavior program near me. Once the drugs no longer worked and the trainers were unable to think outside the box, and use alternate training methods, the dogs were deemed failures. Not the trainers, the dogs, and they paid the ultimate price. The damage cannot be undone.
> Very sad.


Sorry, just to clarify, are you making the case that you know of several specific dogs that you believe would have been saved by a different kind of collar, but the close-minded professional behaviorists wouldn't use them?


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Sorry, just to clarify, are you making the case that you know of several specific dogs that you believe would have been saved by a different kind of collar, but the close-minded professional behaviorists wouldn't use them?


Yes, I am.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

CharlieBear80 said:


> Really? And I was just coming back to this thread to say that I thought everyone was conducting themselves in such a nice manner about the topic and how great that is. I truly appreciate seeing both sides of the argument, I think it's beneficial for everyone.


I saw a lot of posturing... and thought there should be a reminder that one-way trainers not always the most successful. There should not be any argument, particularly in this case when everyone was essentially telling the OP not to use the ecollar.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

TrailDogs said:


> Yes, I am.


Proponents of shock collars invariably mention how incorrect use of those shock collars should not taint everyone's perception of correct usage, whatever that is deemed to be. Similarly, then, one university's purported rush to euthanise dogs in, for us, unknown circumstances, should not be taint anyone's perceptions of positive training and pain free tools.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> when a person who is new to training comes and asks about the pros and cons of something, you end up feeling a responsibility to the person, and even more so to their dog, to keep them away from the pitfalls that you've seen other people and their dogs fall into.....


Tippy - in general, I absolutely agree. And I'm probably the first person jumping in and feeling a responsibility to offer suggestions that I know work better than other suggestions already offered. Sometimes it's a "responsibility" and sometimes it's a Hermione moment (I know the answer better than the other person!!!!!). LOL.  

But when you have a thread where the OP has not posted in a while and you see the "regulars" manipulating the thread so they can steer the conversation into their favorite arguments on ecollars (discussion point which has ended up with people getting banned in the past if it progresses beyond the usual point of mods closing yet another thread...) - that is a point where it's just got to stop.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I disagree. When the OP is specifically wondering about the an e collar for a training issue, that is the perfect time to discuss e collar use. Most said no to the tool in that situation. 

If people get themselves banned over the topic, they should take a course in persuasive writing or gain a little self-control and be reasonable. It is hard to get banned from this forum, and you have to be really over-the-top rude to do it. No one is banned for expressing an opinion.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

who am I really to post when we have all these people with many many more years (and dogs) of experience than I do...but my two cents.

When training my dogs I'll always go the least aversive route. I've mentioned this before - I follow the LIMA principle (Least Intrusive Minimally Aversive) when training my dogs. I start with all positives - so rewards (R+) , and then when that avenue is exhausted add in negative punishment (-P) so removal of rewards to get what I want out of my dogs. For most pet behaviors I don't see why you'd ever need to go outside these two quadrants and use aversives. Like for the OP, why not just get a Amazon.com: PetSafe Easy Walk Dog Harness, Large, Black/Silver: Pet Supplies. Not only is it relatively inexpensive, but there's not collar conditioning, no risk of ruining your dog, and they work well on most dogs. 

Once you get into the world of dog competition things get more complicated. People actually know (not always) how to use tools without messing up dogs. And in some sports its near impossible to succeed without using them. So then the debate gets interesting. But for something like leash walking...I guess I just don't get it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> When the OP is specifically wondering about the an e collar for a training issue.....* Most said no to the tool in that situation*.


Exactly. And unless I missed something, they decided to try something else. Going beyond is piling on and posturing.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

Lilliam said:


> I had intended to put Max in field, but I haven't found one person near me who won't train without aversives. So simple, I don't train.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Off tropic, I know, but you might want to look up Lindsay Ridgeway. He trains around your area and does not use aversives.
> ...


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

TrailDogs said:


> Lilliam said:
> 
> 
> > I had intended to put Max in field, but I haven't found one person near me who won't train without aversives. So simple, I don't train.
> ...


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## Bosn'sMom (Feb 11, 2013)

Hi Everyone-
Thanks for all your opinions. I think this turned into a much more heated debate than I was expecting.

For all those wondering, yes, we use an easy walk harness. He still pulls 40% of the time- and sometimes even tries to bite the leash- and when he is 90 lbs and I am only 100 lbs its an unpleasant experience. That is why I was looking for other trainers as well because I have worked with two so far and since he is not a food driven dog their tactics don't seem to be working since he could care less about treats most times. 

We are working on our loose leash skills more and more (although it has been FREEZING outside- around 10 degrees with the windchill and so unpleasant to be outside that as soon as he does his business we try to head indoors). It is a VERY slow process. I will say though he is mastering "leave it" like a champ outside. 

We are holding off on the trainer with the e collar for now. I'm going to wait until it warms up a bit (like maybe at least hitting 30 every day!) and interview a few others who use different tactics. 

On a side note - I am so lucky to have the most cuddly, warm, and affectionate pup. He is such a joy  Below is a picture from valentines day two weeks ago.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Bosn'sMom said:


> Hi Everyone-
> Thanks for all your opinions. I think this turned into a much more heated debate than I was expecting.
> 
> For all those wondering, yes, we use an easy walk harness. He still pulls 40% of the time- and sometimes even tries to bite the leash- and when he is 90 lbs and I am only 100 lbs its an unpleasant experience. That is why I was looking for other trainers as well because I have worked with two so far and since he is not a food driven dog their tactics don't seem to be working since he could care less about treats most times.
> ...


What a wonderful picture and handsome guy!


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Bosn'sMom said:


> Hi Everyone-
> Thanks for all your opinions. I think this turned into a much more heated debate than I was expecting.
> 
> For all those wondering, yes, we use an easy walk harness. He still pulls 40% of the time- and sometimes even tries to bite the leash- and when he is 90 lbs and I am only 100 lbs its an unpleasant experience. That is why I was looking for other trainers as well because I have worked with two so far and since he is not a food driven dog their tactics don't seem to be working since he could care less about treats most times.
> ...


What a handsome boy 
Does he like tug? One of my boys likes tug, especially leather, so we'd actually tug along in heel position (I used my leather leash). The issue with using treats outside is food rewards are calming whereas outside is arousing so its hard to mix the two. If you have a dog who is very aroused its much easier to keep his attention and focus if you match that with a reward that is arousing (like a game of tug).


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## Bosn'sMom (Feb 11, 2013)

jennretz said:


> What a wonderful picture and handsome guy!



Thank you  I dont have kids yet so he is my baby for now! and is so spoiled....


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## Bosn'sMom (Feb 11, 2013)

coaraujo said:


> What a handsome boy
> Does he like tug? One of my boys likes tug, especially leather, so we'd actually tug along in heel position (I used my leather leash). The issue with using treats outside is food rewards are calming whereas outside is arousing so its hard to mix the two. If you have a dog who is very aroused its much easier to keep his attention and focus if you match that with a reward that is arousing (like a game of tug).



thats a good idea for us to try! we live right by the beach (its a three min walk) and have to do a short part on a road with no sidewalk.. that might be good to keep his attention!


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Another thing that I had to learn too (the hard way) was sometimes I just wasn't going to get my way and the dog wasn't going to behave the way I wanted him to, we just weren't there in our training yet. I remember walking down the middle of our training classroom (it was the start of class, everyone was showing up) with dogs on both sides, everyone a bit crazy - expecting Oliver to walk politely on leash in heel position. I kept stopping and walking backwards and starting over. My trainer walked over to me and said just hold him by the collar, hold it pressed to your side and walk briskly to your spot. He's not ready, you're not ready, don't give him the opportunity to practice any bad behaviors. I have no idea why I thought we'd be able to walk politely in that situation looking back now. So whenever we're in situations I know he can't handle himself I walk him with his collar pressed against my leg so he can't practice any pulling. This might help you in some situations, like if you see another dog or squirrel. I hope I explained that well


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## Bosn'sMom (Feb 11, 2013)

coaraujo said:


> Another thing that I had to learn too (the hard way) was sometimes I just wasn't going to get my way and the dog wasn't going to behave the way I wanted him to, we just weren't there in our training yet. I remember walking down the middle of our training classroom (it was the start of class, everyone was showing up) with dogs on both sides, everyone a bit crazy - expecting Oliver to walk politely on leash in heel position. I kept stopping and walking backwards and starting over. My trainer walked over to me and said just hold him by the collar, hold it pressed to your side and walk briskly to your spot. He's not ready, you're not ready, don't give him the opportunity to practice any bad behaviors. I have no idea why I thought we'd be able to walk politely in that situation looking back now. So whenever we're in situations I know he can't handle himself I walk him with his collar pressed against my leg so he can't practice any pulling. This might help you in some situations, like if you see another dog or squirrel. I hope I explained that well




so true! Very good reminder


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