# Brooks' blood chemistry results: what are these abbreviations?



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Did you google it? Seems to be related to the liver.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Other HIGH values: (but not so crazily high as the ones above)

Result Reference Range
AST 50 10-45
GGT 14 0-13

These blood chemistry values were low:

GLU 66 67-125
CREAT 0.5 0.7-1.5
CA 8.7 9.2-12.1
LiPASE 182 200-700

This was VERY LOW (but no notation about repeat analysis) 
AMY 208 450-1600

In his CBC the only high reading was

NE% 82.8 60-80

These CBC readings were low
MO% 2.2 3.0-14.0
EO% 0.8 2.0-10.0

His thyroid (free T4) level was .66. He has been on the same thyroid Rx for several years at the same dosage. When Dr Dodd did it in Feb 2012 (and he was receiving Rx for it at that time), he was at 2.09 (and she said to keep his Rx the same). I had it retested at the regular vet in Dec 2012 and it was almost exactly the same so he was kept at the same level.

Since I don't know what anything means of the above abbreviations except GLU means Glucose and CREAT means Creatine (which are blood sugar and the Creatine has to do with the pancreas or kidneys I think), I can't interpret anything. 

Anyone who can give me any idea of what anything means here, I would appreciate it


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Oh,, the report also said his RBC (red blood cell) morphology was unremarkable. Platelets are adequate and display normal size and distribution. WBC count is in normal range. No inclusion bodies or parasites observed.


----------



## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

Pred basically eats Soloxine so I am not surprised by that. I am guessing most of these values are coming from the Pred. Do you have him on any liver support like Milk Thistle or SAM-e ?


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I am just now trying to figure out what to do-with vet away camping  
I found out what ALT is:

*ALT (alanine aminotransferase) or SGPT (**serum glutamic pyruvic transaminase)* is a liver specific enzyme. It is concentrated in the cytosol and is released when localized liver cells die from infection or due to the interruption of blood supply. Serum levels increase two to three days after the liver has been affected and return to normal after a couple of weeks of treatment. Generally, two to three times the normal level is considered insignificant and only a persistent increase is considered to be abnormal. ALT levels may go up four to five times the normal level even in non-hepatic disorders like inflammation of the gastrointestinal tract, hemolytic anemia, and heart failure. Dogs undergoing treatment with anticonvulsants and glucosteroids, or those that have an inhibited flow of bile may also show a moderate increase in ALT levels.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I keep wondering about what changed in Brooks' life (the Prednisone was added as a treatment for the licking of the groin/blackening of the skin in the groin area, and the recurrent hot spots) before all this started. 
The only things that changed were I bought 2 new bags of ProPlan. Late August I accidentally bought ProPlan Performance and fed it for about 2 weeks. The skin issues started about a week after feeding it. People on the forum suggested I take it back for his regular ProPlan Sport All Life Stages Chicken and Rice, which I did. He has been fed that food ever since then.
Would the liver be the thing that is affected if something is bad in the ProPlan-I mean could a particular plant have tainted food coming out of it? (I know, no one else on the forum has had any trouble with ProPlan purchased recently--cause I posted that question a couple of weeks ago)


----------



## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

The liver thing is from the Pred I am pretty sure.


----------



## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

I hope you can talk to your vet on Monday. I'm mad at him/her....you should have received a call before the camping trip. I hope you gar answers soon. I'm praying for your baby.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

He was due for his heartworm/flea treatment on Wednesday (I planned to use Revolution this month) but after weighing him that day, I was afraid to stress his system more by treating him.
I had expected to talk to the vet on Thurs so I could ask about this. I called the office at 2 pm but he had already left on his camping trip.
I called on Friday, asking if they could reach the vet to ask if I should treat him as usual, but they said he had no cell phone contact. They thought I should go ahead and treat with Revolution.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

If I were you.... I would contact another vet and take the report over to them to discuss. I would be seriously unhappy being left in the lurch while the vet goes camping without cell phone contact or an alternative vet at the practice to take care of my dogs.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

First, take a deep breath.
The ALT and ALP, both liver enzymes, aren't really all that high. They sound high, but they're not.
My Toby lived the last 6 years of his life with them in that range.
My Tiny's ALT in March was 2500+ and her ALP was 35,000+. That's not a typo. That's thirty-five THOUSAND plus. We were thrilled when we got the ALT down to 650 and the ALP down to 2500. 
Something is insulting his liver. It could very, very well be the prednisone. That plays havoc with all of the liver values. As I said before, that's a massive dose. I'm surprised it's so high (60 mg a day).
As much as it would be simple to blame the food, it's pretty hard to think that of all the dogs in the country eating Pro Plan, only ONE has had elevated liver enzymes. Yes, it's possible, and no one else reported it yet. But honestly not very likely, especially since that was 2 months ago. It's the food of choice for most hunt trainers, so there are an awful lot of dogs eating it. 
I see his blood sugar levels were more or less normal. The next step is probably an abdominal ultrasound, looking for the *other* things that are known to cause unexplained weight loss.
Sending many good wishes and thoughts for Brooks, and for you.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I don't think ProPlan is bad, it is what I always feed. I just meant I bought the bag of PP Performance on Aug 25 (not the type of PP I usually feed) and fed it for about 2 weeks before taking it back to the same store and getting my usual PP All Life Stages. I was just wondering if the factory that created the 2 bags of PP had had any troubles (you know like anti freeze accidentally getting spilled into a batch or something). 
I surely wish the vet had done a thyroid check when I took Brooks in with the hot spots and dark groin area he had licked (I asked for a thyroid check, but vet said we just did it Dec 2012, so we didn't need to re-do).
BTW, I posted a question about giving Prednisone 2-3x daily for hot spots the first week, then tapering off the 2nd week- here on the forum--asking people if that was standard veterinary treatment. No one commented that this was a high dose (although I realize I neglected to say how many mg were in each dose the vet prescribed---wish I had said). But, because I am so leery of giving medicine anyway, I actually only gave the 20mg at the 3x day level 2 or possibly 3 of the days in the first week, and I tapered the Pred off in an even slower pace with lower dosage than the vet had prescribed too (he said the 2nd week give it 2x day every other day). This past Monday I had started the Pred back again because Sunday he developed another hot spot and I gave it 3x Mon, 3x Tues, 2x Wed, 2x Thurs, and I will just give it 1x today and tomorrow then skip Sun and give 1x Mon (per vet order)


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I have to agree with Megora. I would want to bounce it off another vet. The fact that your vet has not been responsive is most concerning to me.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I am not mad at my vet (even though I would have liked to have talked with him). He is a father with 2 young sons and he took his family camping-and frankly I respect a person who creates boundaries between their work life and their home life. 
I think in his mind he examined Brooks and found nothing physically distressing from that examination (the vet techs told me this) and he ordered the blood work which he felt would give the information he needed to go to the next step---which he felt could reasonably wait until Monday.
I will wait to hear what he thinks we should do next and then decide what I want to do


----------



## KathyL (Jul 6, 2011)

What does Brooks weigh? 60 mg a day for something skin related seems awfully high to me. I don't like Prednisone and it is a tricky med. Harley was on a very high dose to suppress his immune system with hopes of increasing his platelet count. He was on 80 mg day and when that did not help it was tapered and if I remember it went to 60 mg a day and he stayed on that for at least a week, maybe two weeks. I believe those increased levels are related to the prednisone. Is there another vet at your practice that can pull his records and advise you. High doses of prednisone can cause your dog to lose muscle mass. Harley had cancer and other health problems but his quality of life was excellent until he began on prednisone. It was heartbreaking to see him deteriorate. Good luck with Brooks.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

This vet works alone. If there is an emergency, he refers us to an emergency hospital (and they work collaboratively on cases that go from the EH back to the vet of course).


----------



## Jessie'sGirl (Aug 30, 2010)

If you trust your vet and he has seen this bloodwork and decided there is nothing urgent here, i'd just wait until Monday. It is not uncommon for liver enzymes to be elevated with certain meds.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

He left on the camping trip about an hour after he examined Brooks and the bloodwork went to the overnight lab and the results weren't in til the morning.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

How old is Brooks? 

I'm sorry you are in a position where you don't have answers and must wait out the weekend. 

EOS means esoinphils and Toby's were elevated once. His vet said it indicated an infection, which he actually had. I've had goldens with elevated liver enzymes with an acute infection and the levels resolved over time. I tend to think the high dose of prednisone has caused a major body reaction with all these adverse consequences, which make me wonder why your vet brought out the big guns for simple hot spots that are usually treated with topical treatments first.


----------



## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I'm pretty sure both of those levels increased when Copper had his skin infections. Is Brooks still getting hot spots and having the blackened skin? I do have advice on shampoo and/or a drench you can use to keep his skin from being infected.

I don't know about the weight loss without a change in diet or exercise so no advice there.

Hugs to you both. I'll go look back over the test results and see if anything else jumps out. I did give Copper milk thistle and Sam-E for liver support just because of his age. Studies show that Sam-E can help with joint pain in dogs as well as Rimadyl do it might help him with his jumping too.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> How old is Brooks?
> 
> 
> EOS means esoinphils .


I think the item on Brooks' report was EO% (and it was low--whatever EO% means)

Brooks was 8 years old in June

Oh, also, part of the problem is that I used two different vets. The regular vet saw him Sept 9 and he gave the Depo Medrol shot and gave me the Quadritop ointment to put on the softball sized hot spot (the 3 earlier hot spots never got larger than the size of a walnut and I was able to just treat them at home with Triple Antibiotic ointment and Gold Bond powder). It had been 10 days since I saw the regular vet and Brooks was still wearing his cone because if I took it off he would start to lick a new spot. I took him to a travelling vet (that I use for shots and buying flea meds) and obviously the cone was noticed and the shaved hot spot area so we discussed Brooks and this vet prescribed the Prednisone. I didn't run the Prednisone by the regular vet (I just came here and asked people if their vets treated hot spots with Prednisone--and several said theirs did--so I figured OK, this is normal treatment).


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

you are much nicer in this situation that I would have been; at the very least I would have asked the vet to recommend someone else while he was away. 

Our Jack was on and off the pred due to his Lupus. We monitored him daily and decided from there. He would be on for a week and then off for awhile and so on. Always tapering off the dosage. We also had him on the Milk Thistle (no dandelion) daily for his liver as the pred does mess with your system. 

When I was on pred (docs mis-diagnozed Lyme for viral meningitis) I lost weight. I got to the point that I could barely stand up. I did not have much to loose from 105 lbs to about 80 lbs and that almost killed me. 

I am sorry I did not see your previous post about the pred.


----------



## Jessie'sGirl (Aug 30, 2010)

NE are probably neutrophils, a type of white blood cell. They fight infection so an elevation can mean presence of infection, like the hot spot. Creatinine is an indication of kidney function, can change with hydration level. High creat can mean kidney problems or just dehydration. I don't think a tad low is a worry. ( just my opinion).


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Did you mention his other medications in the thread? I'm wondering if he is on anything that might interfere with the steroid? Is he on Rimadyl or another NSAID by any chance? If so the combination of a steroid with an NSAID can cause some major issues. 

Milk thistle and Sam- E are excellent for the liver and one of Toby's vets recommends it for many of her seniors if they can tolerate them and they aren't on meds that might interfere with them.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

coppers-mom said:


> Is Brooks still getting hot spots and having the blackened skin? I do have advice on shampoo and/or a drench you can use to keep his skin from being infected.


No new hot spots since the one that he was licking last Sunday. 

The last one appearing Sun is why I decided to start the Prednisone again (I had completed the "tapering off" and had stopped all Prednisone by Friday I think it was) and decided to give him 3x Mon 3x Tues 2x Wed 2x Thurs and today and tomorrow I will give 1x and then none on Sun and then 1x Mon and then none after that (because I understood tapering off was important)


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Did you mention his other medications in the thread?
> 
> Milk thistle and Sam- E are excellent for the liver and one of Toby's vets recommends it for many of her seniors if they can tolerate them and they aren't on meds that might interfere with them.


He always gets Soloxine daily (he takes a .8 in morning and .4 in the evening). 
When he first was licking at himself, I gave him Benadryl some evenings (one 25mg capsule) so he wouldn't lick at himself while we were asleep and before we started using the cone. This was before he was given the Prednisone.

I also give him 2 (1000 mg) Fish Oil capsules and 2 (1500 mg) glucosamine with MSM tablets each day.

I can get some Sam-E and Milk Thistle


----------



## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I know I outweigh Brooks by a lot -. at least 2X his weight. I think my normal dose when my back is really flared up is 5 mg tablets at 7,6,5,4,3,2,1 over a day period so the most is 35mg per day.

I think Copper took 30mgs at his highest so maybe you could try a lower dose next time and see if he does better.

I used Duoxo shampoo for Copper since after his splenectomy he started getting massive skin infections. I also used a Chlorhexadine drench in between his baths.

Odor. You said you smell an odor. Does he smell yeasty/extra strong doggie? Not nasty - just strong and maybe a big like bread dough that has been sitting out? That is a sign of a bacterial and yeast infection of the skin. It took Copper's specialist to clue me in on that.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I know my vet did a "sniff" test on Brooks because in the page long write up I left with Brooks for the vet to read, Odor was a category I addressed. Also, I remember a visit with the vet a year ago when Brooks was having ear issues, the vet mentioned that he could recognize the odor of the ear infection.

I can't pinpoint what it is and I can't tell where it comes from.
It's not the Fritos smell. It's not bread dough. It is actually closer to the smell he gets on his muzzle when he has licked his nether region.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

coppers-mom said:


> I
> 
> I think Copper took 30mgs at his highest so maybe you could try a lower dose next time and see if he does better.


When the (travelling) vet prescribed the Prednisone he wrote down for me to give 2-3x daily for the 1st week. Then he told me that it would work better, or do a better job, if I gave it 3x, but that it could cause diarrhea or vomitting so if he couldn't tolerate 3x, just do 2x.

But I probably only gave it 3x on a total of 4 days over the 23 days since I first gave any to him. I gave it 2x day on possibly 10 days. On possibly 3 or 4 days I gave it 1x and the rest of the days I gave none.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I have just discovered a new line of products (shampoo and leave in mousse) that you might be interested in.
My vet LOVES them.
It's Douxo products. The shampoo is an anti-bacterial/anti-fungal product. You can buy it on Amazon, although *technically* it's only available thru vets.
You might want to run that past your regular vet, and give it a try on Brooks to help avoid the hot spots in the future.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

lgnutah said:


> I know my vet did a "sniff" test on Brooks because in the page long write up I left with Brooks for the vet to read, Odor was a category I addressed. Also, I remember a visit with the vet a year ago when Brooks was having ear issues, the vet mentioned that he could recognize the odor of the ear infection.
> 
> I can't pinpoint what it is and I can't tell where it comes from.
> It's not the Fritos smell. It's not bread dough. It is actually closer to the smell he gets on his muzzle when he has licked his nether region.


Is it an anal sac smell? 

I think your vet probably needs to do a skin culture to determine what is going on with his skin. 

I second the Duoxo line of product recommendation.

I'd clear everything through one vet (adding supplements) and then get the other vet on board too. It's really important if Brooks sees multiple vets they all be on the same page so to speak, and that would mean sharing records. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Is it an anal sac smell?
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



The anal sac thing crossed my mind just last night (but since I wasn't there for the Thurs exam, and wasn't able to talk with the vet after I don't know if he checked--I asked the vet tech what was done at the exam and she ran through a few things-heart, respiration, felt him over his body...but didn't mention anal sacs). He has never had to have them expressed at the vet's office in the past (his bms have always been appropriately firm I guess but maybe something has changed and they need to be checked)


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> I have just discovered a new line of products (shampoo and leave in mousse) that you might be interested in.
> My vet LOVES them.
> It's Douxo products. The shampoo is an anti-bacterial/anti-fungal product. You can buy it on Amazon, although *technically* it's only available thru vets.
> You might want to run that past your regular vet, and give it a try on Brooks to help avoid the hot spots in the future.



This sounds like a good idea. 

I just applied Revolution last night though so this wouldn't be something I could do for a while, right? (I am always confused about the shampooing after topicals thing. Someone said you just have to wait a few days, others have said you can only use certain shampoos)


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

You have to wait 48 hours.
I talked to the people who make Vectra3D topical, and they said that Douxo is a perfectly safe shampoo to use with spot-on products. They said it was one of the products they used in their clinical tests to be sure the products were still effective after bathing.
That said, they also told me that you can bathe them twice in between applications. Any more than that, you will need to apply the spot on more often.


----------



## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> First, take a deep breath.
> The ALT and ALP, both liver enzymes, aren't really all that high. They sound high, but they're not.


Agreed.

I wish your Brooks well for sure. The thing is with blood results is to have a really good vet. They do not look at any particular result in and of itself but the big picture. The dogs age, background, meds they are on etc.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

lgnutah said:


> The anal sac thing crossed my mind just last night (but since I wasn't there for the Thurs exam, and wasn't able to talk with the vet after I don't know if he checked--I asked the vet tech what was done at the exam and she ran through a few things-heart, respiration, felt him over his body...but didn't mention anal sacs). He has never had to have them expressed at the vet's office in the past (his bms have always been appropriately firm I guess but maybe something has changed and they need to be checked)


Our Barkley had absolutely perfect stool and the worst anal sacs! Drove us nuts. My guess that smell is anal sac smell. They should do a rectal exam anyway for a Senior wellness exam as many Goldens are getting anal sac carcinomas these days. If they expressed them he shouldn't smell now, unless they got it all over his fur and didn't clean it up for you. 

As far as bathing, check the directions. I usually wait at least a week, usually 2.


----------



## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Ignutah*

I know that our groomer expresses anal sacs. Might be an idea to check with one to see if they are full.
Tucker (Golden Ret.) has to have his anal glands expressed every 3 months when he is groomed.


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Did I read he was on 60 mg of pred? If so, I'd want to get to the bottom of that immediately. That's a HUGE dose, like that used for suppressing the immune system. Cody was on that doseage for a life threatening AIHA. For even his disc issues he's on a much smaller dose fo 20 mg, and that for a very short period (3 days) before starting the taper.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Just seeing this now... As others have stated, alt (alanine transferase), alk phos (alkaline pnosphatase) can be elevated due to an issue with the liver or be elevated due to the steroid use... In theory, depo medrol should last for at least 6 weeks. My husband and my boss use it in dogs, I hesitate to use it in dogs... And immunosuppressive doses of pred are about 1 mg/lb/day, however, in the bigger dogs, it is done by meters squared, which comes out to be less than 1 mg/lb/day. In the dog, AST is not usually significant. If he is still that itchy maybe there is an underlying reason like sarcoptic mange? I am a fan of 4% chlorhexiderm shampoo. It deodorizes and is anti fungal and antibacterial.


----------



## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

Brooks and Cheryl came to see me.:smooch:

I didn't smell much odor and did feel for full anal glands. I didn't:uhoh: try to express them, just checked back there and they don't feel full to a cursory exam. I think the odor is from his dewlaps (? is that the correct dog term?) staying wet, but he was too excited and wanting to run around and get into things his mama didn't want him to get into like nice fresh horse poop.

Skin smelled fine - not yeasty or real doggy. I used the Duoxo shampoo on Copper with good results and mixed up a chlorhexadine drench(2%) for him since they didn't have mousse back then or I didn't know about it. I would mix it up for Brooks too if he'd like.

He is thin, but was in good spirits and had a lot of fun. He is wonderful and made my day with the visit. He has lost a lot of weight though.

Such a lovely boy who looked bright eyed and happy. I hope the answer is found soon and is an easy fix.:smooch::smooch::smooch::smooch::smooch::smooch::smooch::smooch::smooch::smooch::smooch::smooch:
I still had a card from one of Copper's appointments:smooch: with the Upstate Veterinarian Specialists office and gave it to Cheryl. Cheryl - Upstate literally saved Copper's life more than once so please get a referral there if your vet can't find out what is going on with Brooks.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Tito gets a red yeast on his "dew lips" (flews), and I use the Douxo wipes on them. They are wonderful! Also available from Amazon.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Thanks Teresa for the report. Cheryl, I second getting an opinion at the specialist and if I were in your shoes I'd be asking the specialist to refer you to a veterinarian they respect and trust. I'm still in shock over the large prednisone dose he was prescribed as well as some other things I recall you mentioning about him in past posts. Specifically, I remember you had some trouble getting the vet to put Brooks on thyroid to begin with and it really shouldn't be that hard. Just my humble opinion for what it is worth.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> Tito gets a red yeast on his "dew lips" (flews), and I use the Douxo wipes on them. They are wonderful! Also available from Amazon.


The dark area on Brooks' dewlaps is sortof a reddish dark brown color and I noticed the darker area is bigger than I remember it being in the past. That could be where the odor is coming from.

Teresa--I posted a photo of Brooks with his new toy. He says Wooooooo Teresa is my BFF


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Just seeing this now... As others have stated, alt (alanine transferase), alk phos (alkaline pnosphatase) can be elevated due to an issue with the liver or be elevated due to the steroid use... In theory, depo medrol should last for at least 6 weeks. My husband and my boss use it in dogs, I hesitate to use it in dogs... And immunosuppressive doses of pred are about 1 mg/lb/day, however, in the bigger dogs, it is done by meters squared, which comes out to be less than 1 mg/lb/day. In the dog, AST is not usually significant. If he is still that itchy maybe there is an underlying reason like sarcoptic mange? I am a fan of 4% chlorhexiderm shampoo. It deodorizes and is anti fungal and antibacterial.


Thank you for looking at his CBC and blood chemistry profile (I only posted the ones that were flagged high or low, everything else was normal).

Did anything explain to you why he lost more than 7 pounds in just a few weeks though?


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Low eosinophils and low monocytes are probably a good thing. When he gets off steroids for at least one month, I would recheck liver values. A dog with a very bad liver would show clinical signs...drinking more than usual, not eating well...


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I just saw a dog that lost 5 lbs in six days.. It was anaplasmosis...


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

We were in the mountains of NC for a month. On Aug 14, the day before I came back to SC, I applied Advantix because SC has loads of ticks (the larger varieties) and I wanted to protect him from the SC ticks. 
Where we lived in NC, there were lots of deer that could have had ticks and I didn't put any kind of tick (or even flea) preventative on him when we were up there that month (I just used Interceptor).


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> not eating well...


I wanted to mention that Brooks has never missed a meal, and ate every meal with great speed and enthusiasm. He is given about 1100 calories a day from his regular meals (then probably gets another 100+ from little bites of this and that and his treats). 
He is a rather calm dog (always has been) and his activity level has not increased or decreased markedly in the past month.

That's why his losing weight is so puzzling.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Sally's mom brings up an interesting point....did you do a tick panel on him?


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I am trying to think of anything he has eaten out of the usual in the past few weeks.

Where we walk there is a big American persimmon tree and the ground is littered with ripe persimmons. On at least one walk, he gobbled up about 10 of them (they are small, the size of wild plums) and on two other walks he got a few of them. I looked it up and read the seeds of the persimmon are toxic to dogs but only if they break open the seed (and he just vacuumed them up not taking time to chew thoroughly!)

The only other thing he ate is rabbit poop. He has been nosing in the grass when we go on walks and a couple of times I realized he wasn't just sniffing, but was eating rabbit poop.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> Sally's mom brings up an interesting point....did you do a tick panel on him?


I didn't discuss the testing that was to be done (my husband took Brooks to the vet's office and dropped him off on his way to work--by the time I called there, the vet had already left to go camping and they just told me that the vet did a physical exam and drew blood and also ordered a thyroid test).
On Monday I can discuss the tick possibility with him.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My Mantha when she had anaplasmosis never stopped eating... She had a fever of 104.9 and I was worried about a pyometra. The dog I mentioned earlier had a fever, when I saw her for a recheck, she had no fever. But her owners said she looked like she was dying... Other clients have told me the same thing..that their dog looked like it was dying...


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Brooks' mood has been pretty much the same as always-maybe a little more tired and sedate or down but he is pretty sedate as a rule. He just lies around unless it is his meal time (or he hears the rustle of a wrapper and knows someone is eating something and might just give him something).
He has never been really active--but like today when we went to Teresa's house he was glad to run around and snoop (especially he needed to snoop everywhere he knows she leaves food in bowls)


----------



## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

There is an article in "The Week" (Our replacement for Newsweek since they stopped printing paper copies) and it mentions that tick borne diseases are very much on the rise in part due to milder weather.

I immediately thought of Brooks with his weight loss and honestly - he has lost so much weight it is a bit shocking.

I know he got a bit of extra dog food today and I suspect the fascination with the back porch was due to a bit of cat food being out most likely. Of course there could have been a kitty to check out as well.

I do tink the odor is from the dew lips(?) area as Hotel mentioned. I had no idea that Duoxo made wipes, but that would most likely help. He is moist and reddish in that area.

Having a tick borne disease test wouldn't hurt and might help. If you don't get an answer quickly, please take Brooks to the specialist. they are just so much more knowledgeable than the local guys.


----------



## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

Rabbit poop might cause tapeworms, but not anything else I'm aware of. Did the vet check Brooks for tapes? If he had them bad enough to make him lose that much weight though, you'd see them in his poop. When I found Jack as a pup, he had tapeworms as along as him so it was very evident and Brooks also doesn't have the typical potbellied look a wormy dog has.

I have no knowledge of tick borne diseases, but that is seeming to be a very likely culprit. My human neighbor got Rocky Mountain last summer from a tick bite. Vicious nasty little critters.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

coppers-mom said:


> Rabbit poop might cause tapeworms, but not anything else I'm aware of. Did the vet check Brooks for tapes? If he had them bad enough to make him lose that much weight though, you'd see them in his poop. When I found Jack as a pup, he had tapeworms as along as him so it was very evident and Brooks also doesn't have the typical potbellied look a wormy dog has.
> 
> I have no knowledge of tick borne diseases, but that is seeming to be a very likely culprit. My human neighbor got Rocky Mountain last summer from a tick bite. Vicious nasty little critters.


Tapes will cause a substantial weight loss. I'd ask your vet to do a deworming even if the fecal comes back negative. I'd also check his stool carefully because you might see the segments and still have the fecal show negative (happened to us with Toby Mr. Roadkill King). I'd definitely ask for a full tick panel. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I stopped by the vet's office this afternoon to weigh Brooks (that scale seems to weigh him differently by a few ounces when I weigh him several times in succession) but he seems to be about the same weight as he was on Friday (64.4 lb give or take an ounce or two). When they weighed him on Thursday, they said he was 62.8, but I had weighed him on Wednesday and he was 64.7 so I am thinking the 64.something is probably what he weighs. Anyway, he doesn't seem to be losing anymore (I have upped his food).
I left (another) page long note for the vet when he comes back (so he will have read it when I call him in the morning) advising him of anything I could think of that might help him figure out what is going on.
I asked about doing a full tick panel (I told him I had pulled ticks off Brooks this summer, even after applying Advantix in mid August) and gave him the tapering down schedule I was using to wean Brooks off Prednisone. I also asked him what he thought about referring Brooks to the specialists that coppers-mom had recommended (the vet tech told me that my vet had sent his own father's dog over to that specialist and has referred other cases over to them as well).


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

lgnutah said:


> I stopped by the vet's office this afternoon to weigh Brooks (that scale seems to weigh him differently by a few ounces when I weigh him several times in succession) but he seems to be about the same weight as he was on Friday (64.4 lb give or take an ounce or two). When they weighed him on Thursday, they said he was 62.8, but I had weighed him on Wednesday and he was 64.7 so I am thinking the 64.something is probably what he weighs. Anyway, he doesn't seem to be losing anymore (I have upped his food).
> I left (another) page long note for the vet when he comes back (so he will have read it when I call him in the morning) advising him of anything I could think of that might help him figure out what is going on.
> I asked about doing a full tick panel (I told him I had pulled ticks off Brooks this summer, even after applying Advantix in mid August) and gave him the tapering down schedule I was using to wean Brooks off Prednisone. I also asked him what he thought about referring Brooks to the specialists that coppers-mom had recommended (the vet tech told me that my vet had sent his own father's dog over to that specialist and has referred other cases over to them as well).


Let us know what the vet tells you. The scales in vet offices can do only so much, so I usually rely on the look and feel test to determine their body condition instead of a scale number. That said, a loss of 5 to 7 pounds in a month is significant to a dog the size of a Golden so I hope you can find answers to it. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Brooks*



lgnutah said:


> I stopped by the vet's office this afternoon to weigh Brooks (that scale seems to weigh him differently by a few ounces when I weigh him several times in succession) but he seems to be about the same weight as he was on Friday (64.4 lb give or take an ounce or two). When they weighed him on Thursday, they said he was 62.8, but I had weighed him on Wednesday and he was 64.7 so I am thinking the 64.something is probably what he weighs. Anyway, he doesn't seem to be losing anymore (I have upped his food).
> I left (another) page long note for the vet when he comes back (so he will have read it when I call him in the morning) advising him of anything I could think of that might help him figure out what is going on.
> I asked about doing a full tick panel (I told him I had pulled ticks off Brooks this summer, even after applying Advantix in mid August) and gave him the tapering down schedule I was using to wean Brooks off Prednisone. I also asked him what he thought about referring Brooks to the specialists that coppers-mom had recommended (the vet tech told me that my vet had sent his own father's dog over to that specialist and has referred other cases over to them as well).


Let us know what the vet says. Sounds like you are asking all of the right questions.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Brooks' vet ordered some more tests. Full tick panel came up negative. Bile acids result was worrisome and the vet referred us to the specialty vet clinic for an ultrasound tomorrow. Coppers-mom is going with me.


----------



## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I hate that Brooks needs to go there, but they have all the equipment and specialists for every thing.
Please send up a little prayer for Brooks.:smooch:


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Sending prayers for Brooks. I am going to talk to my vet as our full tick panels are sent out and it takes a few days to get results. She also uses in house snap tests that aren't as comprehensive.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Ignutah*

Ignutah

I will be praying for Brooks and you and I think it is wonderful that Coppers Mom is going with you! What great support!


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hope everything is OK and this was just related to meds. I'm so glad Copper's Mom is going with you. All my thoughts and prayers for you.


----------



## Goldens R Great (Aug 19, 2010)

Sending prayers and good thoughts your way for Brooks. That is so nice Coppers-Mom is going with you.


----------



## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

Good thoughts and prayers for Brooks. I know he will love Teresa coming along for his vet visit.


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Good thoughts and prayers coming your way!


----------



## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Sending thoughts and prayers for Brooks. Hope they get an explanation tomorrow and it's something treatable.


----------



## tikiandme (May 16, 2010)

Sending positive vibes out for Brooks and hoping his problems are not too serious.


----------



## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Brooks*

Praying for Brooks!


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Any word on Brooks?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

Please keep up the prayers.
Brooks' appointment is at 1:30 this afternoon at the specialists'. They do have all types of specialists and equipment so can and will do the best for lovely Brooks.

He was so funny last Saturday running around here and finding all kinds of things he should't have:doh: and really wishing his Mom would let him enjoy the treats that were just lying around (horse poop and cow hooves and dog food and cat food). He gave them up when asked, but looked a bit hang dog.:smooch: Luckily I had a furry squeaky toy for him to take home.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Checking...


----------



## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I know Cheryl is busy giving Brooks some delicious home cooked food so I'm so pleased to tell you he is fine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Depo whatever shot was a steroid, the ointment was a steroid, the Prednisone was way too much steroid. He is off the Pred (has been for a few days), no more of that ointment and the shot will take more time to wear off, but his demeanor today could not have been more golden.

He had X-rays and an ultrasound at the vet's recommendation, but they were clean. The vet pretty sure from the initial exam that it was too many steroids, but wanted to be sure.

I'll let his Mom fill in the rest, but I wanted to let everyone know as soon as possible. So glad to be able to give good news.


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

SUPER!!!!! Good grief.... think I'd be looking for a new vet. I can't imagine that much of an overdose.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Ya----hooooo Happy family here!!
coppers-mom filled you in on how the insides of Brooks looked (all systems looked just fine, he said the liver was a little "shiny"-what ever that means) so right now the only thing that doesn't look too great is his shaved away beautiful tummy fur.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

It was a case of pilot error and I take full responsibility for being the pilot.
I took him to one vet, and then took him to a 2nd vet 10 days later and my (huge) mistakes were:

1. not asking vet 1 what Depo Medrol or Quadritop are. DM is the shot the vet gave and Q is the ointment. This was to treat 4 hot spots that Brooks got in quick succession
2. after not asking what DM or Q were, I then didn't go home and look them up
3. making a mistaken assumption that DM and Q were antibiotics

Then one week later, Brooks got another hot spot. It was time for him to get his rabies shot and I decided also to buy some Revolution (as I thought maybe it was fleas, mites or something causing the hot spots). The travelling vet carries Revolution (my regular vet doesn't). So as the travelling vet was going to be near my home, I went to him and made my next mistake:

4. not taking the vet #1 visit paper work with me OR EVEN REMEMBERING WHAT BROOKS WAS GIVEN AT VET #1 when I went to the travelling vet.

The travelling vet asked me and the best I could do was tell him Brooks got a shot and some drippy, yellow ointment that started with a Q. I told him the ointment was almost all gone. I remember the travelling vet hesitated and puzzled over the shot and said that some of the shots that are given are long lasting. Then he gave me the Rx for Prednisone and told me to give it 2-3x day for a week, and 2x every other day for the next week.

So the vets are not to blame. I am.

BTW, the way the bone on the top of Brooks' head kindof sticks out now has a name, today's vet called it Pred-head. It is classic over prednisoned dog head I guess.


----------



## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I seem to recall in my years of owning a diabetic cat that giving a cat an overdose of steroids can lead to diabetes (either transient or the real thing). I know some vets are hesitant to give cats steroids because of the risk. I would ask your vet if there are any lasting risks from the steroid overdose.

Glad you seem to have answers!


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Thank goodness it's a simple fix! Lesson learned and now I bet you will make sure all vets get copies of everything and are all on the same page!


----------



## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

Now Brooks can go to Upstate any time he has an issue that would be dealt with by the internal specialist without a referral.

They also have a dermatologist now and the internal spec vet said he could refer Brooks to her if need be when he goes back for his check-up.

I also use the traveling vet for some vaccinations and to buy flea meds. I couldn't afford my rescues or the other ones I help without that vet's lower costs.

I'm just glad the lovely boy with the pred head is going to be okay.!:smooch: I was very worried and we're just friends. I know Cheryl had to be sick with worry.


----------



## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I believe they said Copper's liver was "brighter" on one of his ultrasounds, but they thought it was due to him having another issue that he was fighting. I jsut don't remember what. I don't think a shiny liver is a big problem, but you could talk to the vet about liver supplements when you go back.

I love Upstate Veterinarian Specialists.


----------



## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Coppers Mom and Cheryl*



coppers-mom said:


> Now Brooks can go to Upstate any time he has an issue that would be dealt with by the internal specialist without a referral.
> 
> They also have a dermatologist now and the internal spec vet said he could refer Brooks to her if need be when he goes back for his check-up.
> 
> ...


Coppers Mom and Cheryl:

I am so happy that Brooks is o.k.! Please keep us posted!


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I am so, so happy for you!!!


----------



## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

Yay!! I'm so happy for you all!!!


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm glad it was "just" the meds. 

I think it is a little nuts to have ultrasounds done every year without cause, but these checks are always worth the money when ruling stuff out in times like this. I'm so glad the specialist said he's "shiny" in there.


----------



## SandyK (Mar 20, 2011)

Very glad to see Brooks is ok!!!!


----------



## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

:greenboun:greenboun:greenboun:greenboun


----------



## Belle's Mom (Jan 24, 2007)

Just seeing the update and am so thrilled for you and Brooks.

Coppers Mom - that was very sweet of you to go with them.


----------



## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

So very happy for you that Brooks is going to be ok!


----------



## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Great to read this wonderful update that Brooks will be alright. 

Very scary........


----------



## tikiandme (May 16, 2010)

I'm glad Brooks is okay. His shaved midriff gives him that "Muscle Beach" look. Very becoming.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Last fri, i took brooks in for te test (liver panel, bile acids). The vet contaced me today to tell me all but one of his his results are back in the normal range, with ALT still high, but just outside of normal.
So, good news


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

no, not good news...GREAT news!!


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> no, not good news...GREAT news!!


 and a big lesson learned on my part about taking records with me when I see a different vet


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

a good lesson for ALL of us!


----------



## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Brooks*

So glad to hear about the great results for Brooks!!


----------

