# Confrontational Techniques Elicit Aggression



## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Good article! I'm a little surprised by these numbers



> 43% of dogs responded with aggression to being hit or kicked, 38% to having an owner grab their mouth and take out an object forcefully, 36% to having a muzzle put on (or attempted?), 29% to a “dominance down,” 26% to a jowl or scruff shake. You get the idea. Of course, these are all dogs who were seen by veterinary behaviorists for aggression-related problems, but it makes the data even more important. Violence begets violence, aggression begets aggression.


I really would have expected those numbers to be higher. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part. In my perfect world any dog that was hit or kicked would have the absolute right to bite that person. But that's just me.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

The author is lumping hitting and kicking with leash corrections and verbal corrections. Hitting and kicking are not training techniques. 

I've reached in Bella's mouth to remove objects dozens of times. What am I supposed to do. Let her eat the rock? 


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

I have to agree that taking an object from a dog's mouth isn't something I consider abusive or aggressive. While "leave it", "drop it", and "out" are important commands, there are times when I've had to put my hand into my dog's mouth and get something. Maybe my training is out of date but I was taught that you should train your dog to accept you putting your hand into their mouth.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

Nairb said:


> The author is lumping hitting and kicking with leash corrections and verbal corrections. Hitting and kicking are not training techniques.
> 
> I've reached in Bella's mouth to remove objects dozens of times. What am I supposed to do. Let her eat the rock?
> 
> ...


Hitting and kicking _are_ considered training techniques in some spheres though. That's what people kept trying to say in the other positive training thread...confrontational training is a much bigger, much more dangerous bubble than just the portion of that bubble that responsible dog owners like you are practicing in, and it can be a slippery slope for _irresponsible owners_. Some people really do seriously view hitting and kicking as a valid means of teaching a dog.

In regards to forcibly removing an object from a dogs mouth, I read that more as people who try to teach "drop it" by gripping their dogs mouth around the snout, pulling it open, and pulling out the object or getting into a battle of the wills match over resource guarding. Taking a dangerous object from your dog =/= training time, it's life saving time. 


In regards to the OP, I wonder how much higher these numbers would be if they also included dogs being treated for severe anxiety/phobias, not just aggression. I understand the point was to correlate that aggressive training attracts an aggressive response, I'm just thinking outloud. Between personal experiences and rescue, I find more dogs get dysfunctionally anxious and phobic rather than hostile in the presence of confrontational training (and I am not going to qualify the confrontational training, because it is what it is. Instead I will qualify the dogs, softer dogs react to less confrontation, more robust dogs will be able to handle more confrontation).


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## JayBen (Aug 30, 2012)

Im not sure removing an object from a dogs mouth and kicking the dog should be lumped together. I think hitting or kicking is abuse.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

JayBen said:


> Im not sure removing an object from a dogs mouth and kicking the dog should be lumped together. I think hitting or kicking is abuse.


I wish everyone thought the same as you. But as Mirinde pointed out, there are many people who do not see it that way. For work, I travel to people's homes in a mostly rural area. Almost every day I see dogs get smacked, kicked, poked at (hard) with a cane or some other truly disturbing thing. Every time I ask them "Please do not do that in front of me." And the response pretty much every time is "But he/she needs to learn." I can't really push the issue without causing major work problems but it absolutely kills me to see it. 

I also see no shortage of intact dogs left out to wander (including in the road), dogs chained outside, big dogs left outside while little dogs are allowed in with the family. I don't know if any/all of this would be less prevalent in a suburban or urban setting; or a more affluent area where people are more likely to get some level of formal training with their dogs; or if my patients were in a younger demographic (though my limited sample doesn't seem to point to that being too much of a factor). But I do know, without a doubt, that there are plenty of people who see it as a perfectly suitable "training technique." 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I could probably count on one hand the number of times I've personally witnessed a dog being smacked or hit with a cane in my adult lifetime. I meet different people every day in urban, suburban, and rural settings. I pretty much see it all. And I lived in a rural setting for most of my childhood. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I'm surprised they would do it in front of you. 


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

E collar shocks are in a similar category to cuffing, hitting and kicking from my vantage point.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"I'm surprised they would do it in front of you."
_____________________

"But he/she needs to learn."
But I do know, without a doubt, that there are plenty of people who see it as a perfectly suitable "training technique." 

_____________________

Why wouldn't they do it in front of her, as far as they are concerned they are teaching the dog and for them it is an acceptable way to train. They think using fear and pain are acceptable.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

solinvictus said:


> "I'm surprised they would do it in front of you."
> _____________________
> 
> "But he/she needs to learn."
> ...


I'm surprised because I don't see it. I go into 700-800 homes per year. All different backgrounds, and lots of dogs. Nobody does that in front of me.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Ljilly28 said:


> E collar shocks are in a similar category to cuffing, hitting and kicking from my vantage point.


I can imagine your disappointment that nearly 5 hours later, nobody has taken the bait.


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