# Some Misperceptions (long)



## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

This is very well thought out, and thanks for posting.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

I noticed that the 4th, 9th and 10th don't mention which breed they're referring to? I'm not nitpicking - I'm just curious. It'd be interesting to know which breeds those descriptions are addressing. (Though, I imagine we could all take pretty good guesses.)



Pointgold said:


> It is potentially dangerous to assume that ANY dog is friendly. It is potentially dangerous to make excuses for ANY dog that has exhibited true aggression. It is potentially dangerous to believe that there are breeds of dogs that are not unfriendly and that any issue is because of the owner. Some breeds, even when well bred and properly managed are simply not friendly with strangers - human or otherwise.


So VERY true. That particular misconception is the one thing I have to be most careful of when I'm out with Riley. Anyone who doesn't know him automatically assumes that he's friendly because he's a Golden. Funny I never had that problem with Gunner. People would always assume the opposite about a GSD and, until he got sick, he was the biggest mush on the planet. So there ya go...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Thanks Laura<:

One thing I'm thinking is that if people go to dog shows and watch the breeds or talk to their owners or breeders - you will run into a lot more honesty and well-rounded knowledge about these breeds than if you were talking with the average pet owner who can only tell you about their own dog's behavior or the behavior of dogs that they have encountered or heard about. 

Those people who breed and handle those dogs all the time will be able to tell you the worst and best about their breed. 

One thing about chows - when I was a little girl I remember one chow at my piano teacher's who was the same size as my golden (I'm baffled by some of the chows that I've seen at shows who seem much smaller?). That dog had the temperament of a newfie. That dog loved kids and was literally like a nurse dog with the piano lady's little girl. A very gentle dog.

The same thing is true of my neighbor's chows when I've met them (she owns 2 of them). They are two big wooly bears. Very gentle and friendly in their own way.

Based on those dogs alone, I would be completely astonished if anyone told me that they are aggressive or dangerous animals. But it _is_ a problem with the breed.. even if it isn't true of every dog of that breed.  There are a lot more breeds out there who are dangerous besides pits. There must be a reason why they aren't often in the news for killing people.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

LifeOfRiley said:


> I noticed that the 4th, 9th and 10th don't mention which breed they're referring to? I'm not nitpicking - I'm just curious. It'd be interesting to know which breeds those descriptions are addressing. (Though, I imagine we could all take pretty good guesses.)
> 
> 
> 
> So VERY true. That particular misconception is the one thing I have to be most careful of when I'm out with Riley. Anyone who doesn't know him automatically assumes that he's friendly because he's a Golden. Funny I never had that problem with Gunner. People would always assume the opposite about a GSD and, until he got sick, he was the biggest mush on the planet. So there ya go...


 

4th is the Anatolian Shepherd Dog. 
9th is the German Shepherd.
10th is the Kuvasz.

I chose AKC recognized breeds. There are others, with European standards and not recognized here (or only as Rare Breeds) that also are not inherently friendly or outgoing.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

LifeOfRiley said:


> So VERY true. That particular misconception is the one thing I have to be most careful of when I'm out with Riley. *Anyone who doesn't know him automatically assumes that he's friendly because he's a Golden.*



Yep, same deal here. When I walk Flora people will just amble up to her and pat her on the head. Fortunately she's great with people, but sometimes I'm amazed that people do that. For all they know she could be a biter!

It's a problem though, as I'm sure you know LoF, when people assume Flora is dog friendly b/c she's a golden. :uhoh: I wish my dog were perfect and godlike and totally in keeping with the GR temperament, but she is not.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

I live in the city, not far from some tough neighborhoods. If I see a free dog that even resembles a pit bull I am staying clear since some not so nice folks use them as attack and guard dogs around here. Oh, and I call animal control instead of trying to get it in my yard so I can find the owner as I would with other free roaming dogs.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

I think part of the problem is that some people who own bully breeds or dogs with more reserved temperaments sometimes get defensive that their dogs aren't as friendly as other breeds. There's nothing wrong with having a more reserved dog - assuming the dog isn't aggressive - but I think the problem is people get a dog who can't be treated like a golden or lab or whatnot but then DO treat it as such.

I know a few responsible pitbull and strong breed (german shepherds, akitas, etc) owners and they're all very aware that they can't treat their dogs like other dog breed owners can. One pitbull owner was out every day for 3-4 hours with his puppy trying to get socialization with other dogs and people because he knows they can become dog aggressive if not properly brought up. Not to say ALL pitbulls ARE dog aggressive, but it's in them just like the retriever instinct is in retrievers. This guy was doing more socialization with his pitbull puppy than most people do because he knew it was of the utmost importance. He wanted to go above and beyond for his dog to get it started off right.

Another gal I know has 4 pitbulls and they're never allowed on furniture, get taken to off leash areas unless they're on leash, or allowed loose in the house unsupervised. She's never had a problem but she never treats them like a different breed. She knows they're strong, have different instincts than other dogs, and is so much more responsible with them because of that. Personally, I like a dog that I can chill with on the bed and not have to always be 'on alert' which is why I know that a pitbull or other breeds (akita, kuvasz, etc) aren't for me.

But I still think the problem are the owners of strong dog breeds who treat them like they're any other dog breed because they think there's something wrong with NOT having an 'easy' dog. I don't expect an akita (for example) to act like a golden retriever and I wouldn't treat it as such but too many people do. "Oh, Butch is soooo friendly!! Let's take him to the dog park where he can make friends..." and even though Butch is a good dog at home and on leash, he doesn't particularly like other dogs but he gets taken to the dog park. Again, there's nothing wrong with a dog who isn't completely friendly and goofy...but there's something wrong when people don't think different dog breeds need to be treated differently. As PG pointed out, different dog breeds have different breed standards in temperament. Treat them accordingly and don't get annoyed that you have to do so.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

One of the reasons I stopped handling Akitas was because it was exhausting having to be so vigilante - I was also handling Frenchies, and Corgis, and Poms, and the thought that one of these dogs being injured by an Akita turned my stomach. I handled one very big young male who decided that my son Paul was HIS, and it was difficult for anyone to get near him when he was with him. This was 20 years ago, when Akitas were REALLY tough - we put towels over the male's heads ringside so that they didn't make eye contact, or the fight was on. And this was correct temperament. Now, they are much softer. In fact, the Japanese feel we've ruined them. I have a really nice Akita puppy in my current PK class, and he's delightful - plays beautifully with the other dogs. Yes, he's a puppy, and things may be different when he's grown, but 20 years ago even _puppies _were on the muscle.
I recently had a Pit Bull in class, and she was AWFUL with the owners, and great with me - after a couple of "come to Jesus" meetings. The guy is a FIRST TIME DOG OWNER. And the girl is pregnant. Why on earth would any responsible breeder allow a PB puppy to go to such a home?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> One of our member's Golden puppy was attacked by a pit bull. There are those who make excuses for/defend the breed who do not seem to truly have a clear understanding of the breed themselves. (This not to say that ALL "pit bulls" are bad, but all pit bulls _do_ have the potential to be DA, and to do great damage. They also, because of poor breeding and often poor ownership, have become more inclined to show aggression towards humans. ) There are those who believe that ALL dogs are inherently good and that any "issues" are because of poor management. It's simply not true. There are many breeds whose very standard indicates that they are NOT "friendly" and not tolerant of strangers and other dogs.
> And yes, there are people who cannot ID an APBT, but there are also instances where a dog is a pit MIX, or, even more commonly, a poorly bred APBT. The APBT does have a breed standard, and amazingly, MANY owners don't even know that one exists, or, if they do, they don't know what it says.
> 
> It is potentially dangerous to assume that ANY dog is friendly. It is potentially dangerous to make excuses for ANY dog that has exhibited true aggression. It is potentially dangerous to believe that there are breeds of dogs that are not unfriendly and that any issue is because of the owner. Some breeds, even when well bred and properly managed are simply not friendly with strangers - human or otherwise.
> ...


 
Could you label the description for the breed it's referring to, not all of them say what breed it is.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I think this should have been included in your description of the APBT, and I am mistaken, or does AKC not actually recognize the APBT breed?


*Characteristics *The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children. Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed's natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> One of the reasons I stopped handling Akitas was because it was exhausting having to be so vigilante - I was also handling Frenchies, and Corgis, and Poms, and the thought that one of these dogs being injured by an Akita turned my stomach. I handled one very big young male who decided that my son Paul was HIS, and it was difficult for anyone to get near him when he was with him. This was 20 years ago, when Akitas were REALLY tough - we put towels over the male's heads ringside so that they didn't make eye contact, or the fight was on. And this was correct temperament. Now, they are much softer. In fact, the Japanese feel we've ruined them. I have a really nice Akita puppy in my current PK class, and he's delightful - plays beautifully with the other dogs. Yes, he's a puppy, and things may be different when he's grown, but 20 years ago even _puppies _were on the muscle.
> I recently had a Pit Bull in class, and she was AWFUL with the owners, and great with me - after a couple of "come to Jesus" meetings. The guy is a FIRST TIME DOG OWNER. And the girl is pregnant. Why on earth would any responsible breeder allow a PB puppy to go to such a home?


Do you know it was a responsible breeder? My guess would be not.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I knew of someone that owned a chow, i at times helped her, with letting it out, walks, aloof is what the chow was, smart, but protective.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> 4th is the Anatolian Shepherd Dog.
> *9th is the German Shepherd.*
> 10th is the Kuvasz.


 Thought so. I admit, I wouldn't have guessed the other two, though.



Ranger said:


> Another gal I know has 4 pitbulls and they're never allowed on furniture, get taken to off leash areas unless they're on leash, or allowed loose in the house unsupervised. She's never had a problem but she never treats them like a different breed. She knows they're strong, have different instincts than other dogs, and is so much more responsible with them because of that. Personally, I like a dog that I can chill with on the bed and not have to always be 'on alert' which is why I know that a pitbull or other breeds (akita, kuvasz, etc) aren't for me.


Exactly. It really always goes back to the fact that people need to research the breed (or breeds, if the dog is a mix) BEFORE they bring one home. And they have to be aware of and honest with themselves about their own abilities and limitations as an owner. I know all too well that you can still end up with an oddball (like my little Prince of Darkness) but, more often than not, if you do your homework and look for a well-bred dog, you're going to get pretty much what you expect.

That's why I know I'll never have another GSD. They were my first love and I miss having one SO bad, but I know that they're just not the dog for me, anymore. It breaks my heart, but I know it wouldn't be a wise decision. 



kdmarsh said:


> Yep, same deal here. When I walk Flora people will just amble up to her and pat her on the head. Fortunately she's great with people, but sometimes I'm amazed that people do that. For all they know she could be a biter!
> 
> It's a problem though, as I'm sure you know LoF, when people assume Flora is dog friendly b/c she's a golden. :uhoh: I wish my dog were perfect and godlike and totally in keeping with the GR temperament, but she is not.


Yeah, I wish Riley had the "typical Golden" temperament, too, but he is who he is. It won't stop me from working with him and striving for something at least _close_ to the desired GR temperament... but I've accepted that it might never happen.

It's funny, though - I was thinking about the misconceptions that people have about Goldens and I realized that it really cuts both ways for me, with Riley.
I think people have overlooked some of his less desirable episodes because he's a Golden. When he's lunged at other dogs or growled at people, it almost seems as if they haven't really taken him seriously. I can explain that he's just afraid of strangers or strange dogs and gets defensive, and people usually react with an "aww, poor guy" kind of attitude. Which is a very good thing for us. Now had Gunner done anything like that (even for the same reason) people would have been up at the office, complaining to the manager that he was a vicious dog. I think they're not nearly as concerned about it because Riley's a Golden. So, at times I guess the misconceptions and assumptions work to our advantage.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

mylissyk said:


> Could you label the description for the breed it's referring to, not all of them say what breed it is.


 
I did clarify 4, 9 and 10, as asked, in another post. My point was not about individual breeds, but that there ARE breed that are not inherently friendly.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

mylissyk said:


> I think this should have been included in your description of the APBT, and I am mistaken, or does AKC not actually recognize the APBT breed?
> 
> 
> *Characteristics *The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children. Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed's natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work.


 
No, the AKC does not. I was posting TEMPERAMENTS standards as written. I only added the standard for the APBT's head because it has been stated that people _incorrectly_ think they have big, blocky/broad heads. Those people are _not _incorrect. And, my point is that as recognized by the UKC, the club actually refers to their potential regarding dog aggression, even outside of the standard. As for aggression towards humans, as I also stated in another post, the propensity to be so is much more frequent now, due in part to poor breeding and poor management.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

mylissyk said:


> Do you know it was a responsible breeder? My guess would be not.


 
It certainly wasn't by _my _definition. But the people who bought her felt so.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Why would you want to breed, any breed, that is by the breed standard dog aggressive? Several of those mention the breed can be dog aggressive, but should be under the control of the handler.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

mylissyk said:


> Why would you want to breed, any breed, that is by the breed standard dog aggressive? Several of those mention the breed can be dog aggressive, but should be under the control of the handler.


 
Gee. Good question. And one that I've asked continually. I suppose that people who actually WORK some of those breeds as they were intended to be might have a better answer. As for Pit Bulls, where's _their _work?


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

I have a concern-- 
If pitbulls (and some of these other breeds) are notoriously considered aggressive or hostile and end up on these ridiculous BSL lists, how does that effect a reputable breeder's ability to sort of change the temperament curve? For example, if pitbulls are banned, how are reputable breeders then able to breed for quality temperament, thus getting "better" genes in circulation? I feel like I'm not describing this the way it's working out in my head, but hopefully someone will understand what I mean. Basically, my concern is that if breeds like pitbulls forever remain this taboo breed and BSL really starts taking hold, couldn't that create a situation where the only dogs left are the ones being illegally and poorly bred, thus contributing to the over-aggressive lines?


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Gee. Good question. And one that I've asked continually. I suppose that people who actually WORK some of those breeds as they were intended to be might have a better answer. As for Pit Bulls, where's _their _work?


Well, if you read the UKC standard, it would be to catch wild hogs! I know I have had the need to catch many wild hogs recently.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

In simple terms, the breeders breed them, in part, because people want them, now why do people want them?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Mirinde said:


> I have a concern--
> If pitbulls (and some of these other breeds) are notoriously considered aggressive or hostile and end up on these ridiculous BSL lists, how does that effect a reputable breeder's ability to sort of change the temperament curve? For example, if pitbulls are banned, how are reputable breeders then able to breed for quality temperament, thus getting "better" genes in circulation? I feel like I'm not describing this the way it's working out in my head, but hopefully someone will understand what I mean. Basically, my concern is that if breeds like pitbulls forever remain this taboo breed and BSL really starts taking hold, couldn't that create a situation where the only dogs left are the ones being illegally and poorly bred, thus contributing to the over-aggressive lines?


I think possibly look into dobermans and rottweilers and see what some breeders are doing to "fix" those breeds and change the perception of them through breeding sound dogs, despite the inherent temperament inclinations of those breeds. 

I could be wrong, but I think the doberman crowd did something very drastic to clean up the breed.



> I know I have had the need to catch many wild hogs recently.


You never know. I read something in the detroit news about wild hogs...


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

mylissyk said:


> Do you know it was a responsible breeder? My guess would be not.


Actually, I could guess that it was. I hope they are much improved over the past, but I can still remember a handler team, who had a young Akita they handled, and had handled for a long time with no issues. With no warning, the dog attacked the wife and was actually shot by the husband-and you can imagine it took him a while to run into the house, get his gun and come back out again. She was severely injured.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> Actually, I could guess that it was. I hope they are much improved over the past, but I can still remember a handler team, who had a young Akita they handled, and had handled for a long time with no issues. With no warning, the dog attacked the wife and was actually shot by the husband-and you can imagine it took him a while to run into the house, get his gun and come back out again. She was severely injured.


I could tell Akita stories...

For me, I cannot consider the pit bull puppy in my class to have come from a responsible breeder, as I doubt they'd have sold her to a FIRST TIME DOG OWNER with a pregnant girlfriend.


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## desi.n.nutro (Mar 18, 2011)

*My APBT story (kinda long too)*




Pointgold said:


> And yes, there are people who cannot ID an APBT, but there are also instances where a dog is a pit MIX, or, even more commonly, a poorly bred APBT. The APBT does have a breed standard, and amazingly, MANY owners don't even know that one exists, or, if they do, they don't know what it says.




I adopted a shelter animal that was listed as a "Lab" mix. Within a couple months it was obvious that it was an APBT, Lab mix. Bailey was incredibly smart. Smart like I never saw from a dog before. 

We moved to the country when he was about 2 and the trouble began. He was possessive, DA, and it turned out he hated horses. I had to keep him on a heavy chain because of his size (Lab) and his strength (APBT) and he could bust away from me easily. One day he got away from my daughter when she was trying to untangle his chain and he ran some horses biting at their hocks and injuring one while getting injured. I ran for 2 miles trying to call him off of those horses. He usually listened but once on the heels of horse, another personality took over. 

I was ordered to put him down so I quickly snuck him back to the shelter where I got him. I was crying like a 2 yr old myself when they came and got him. The girl said to him, "Come on you bad boy." She grabbed his leash and he laid down at my feet. I know he knew his fate. I did too. There was an APBT ban being voted on in that city that very week and the surrounding cities had already banned them. I told her through tears that he was not bad at all. He just didn't like horses. He didn't know what they were. 

I loved that dog as much as all the others. He was so sweet to us. Still, I have to admit how dangerous he was and how dangerous it was that I could not control him. If a dog that big and strong decides that a child is worrisome? 

I don't like the bans. I hate the APBT breeding for fighting practices. I never want to own a dog that hurts others. Almost every time there is a dog bite court case it seems to be an APBT. I was bit by another breed of Terrier. I know they are mean and dangerous in general. However every time I see one I have to ask to pet it. That is how I remember and honor Bailey for being so good to me. I wish we would just stop breeding them all together because they *are* just behaving the way they were bred to behave. 

For anyone or anything that was ever harmed by a Bailey, or any dog for that matter, most of their owners are sad and would take it back if they could. For the owners who are not sad and are perpetuating this standard, I hope there is a special prosecution in your future.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Do you feel there is something, that is just natural to them, that they want to attack, be it horse, dogs, people?


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Megora said:


> You never know. I read something in the detroit news about wild hogs...


Ya Know, I thought of that right after I posted. I guess there are tons of people in Ypsilanti township who are worried about wild hogs.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

kdmarsh said:


> It's a problem though, as I'm sure you know LoF, when people assume Flora is dog friendly b/c she's a golden.


People routinely let small children run right up into Comet and Jax's faces when we're out and about on leash. I typically give them a brief, forceful lecture on how they are going to have a disfigured child if they make a habit of letting their kids do that.

If I have time, I will try to step in front of the dogs and act like the child is in imminent danger in order to try to put a little fear into the parents.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> People routinely let small children run right up into Comet and Jax's faces when we're out and about on leash. I typically give them a brief, forceful lecture on how they are going to have a disfigured child if they make a habit of letting their kids do that.
> 
> If I have time, I will try to step in front of the dogs and act like the child is in imminent danger in order to try to put a little fear into the parents.


Maybe this means that we, as Golden people, have a greater responsibility than people belonging to other breeds to be sure that either we do have dogs that are O.K. with children running up to them or we are really good at deflecting.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Selli-Belle said:


> Maybe this means that we, as Golden people, have a greater responsibility than people belonging to other breeds to be sure that either we do have dogs that are O.K. with children running up to them or we are really good at deflecting.


 
Since I am not afraid that any of my dogs would do anything to a child that runs up to them, my usual tact is to tell them politely that they need to know that not all dogs are as friendly as mine and that no matter what, they should ALWAYS ask first if they may pet them, so that they are not in danger of being bitten. 
And for the kids who do ask first (these far outnumber the ones who don't) I say "YES! Please DO - he's been waiting for you to ask!" and when they are done, I say "Thank you very much for petting him, and thank you even MORE for asking first!" This leaves a very good impression of the breed and people who own it, while still offering a lesson. At shows where I've done this I've actually had the kids come back, with friends, and say "I brought Amanda with me, can SHE pet Crew (or whoever)? " And the parents thank us.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Tiny confession: After 12 years of owning a golden who could not handle people (adults or kids) rushing up to pet him, and having to explain to them every single time the right way to approach him (get down to his level, let him approach them first and sniff their hands before they touched his head or back, don't move too quickly). <- Yes, Danny loved kids and most cases he was in heaven with sticky hands wrapped around his neck and kids pushing their faces towards his, but he got scared if people moved too fast on him. 

Anyway... after 12 years of training kids and adults how to approach my golden properly, I'm very happy that I don't have to do that with my little guy. It makes his day to have people and children rush up to him. It hurts his golden hearted feelings if they don't.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

I've never had a dog that I was afraid would harm a child, or anyone for that matter. Still, I always tell children (and some clueless adults) that they need to ask BEFORE they pet my dog. Finn actually has a bad habit of licking little kids' faces, so I also warn them that they may get a dog breath bath! 

As for breeds who are hard-wired to be potentially dog aggressive, I avoid those animals, even when they are leashed. I've yet to meet an owner of any of those breeds who has a good understanding of their dog's capacity to do harm (except several ownes of GSDs), including my brother who had a lovely Kuvasz. I did have that absurd experience of a pitty who tried to kill my angel Cody, and this after "knowing" each other for over four years. Nope, don't trust the dogs and certainly don't trust the owners.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> Tiny confession: After 12 years of owning a golden who could not handle people (adults or kids) rushing up to pet him, and having to explain to them every single time the right way to approach him (get down to his level, let him approach them first and sniff their hands before they touched his head or back, don't move too quickly). <- Yes, Danny loved kids and most cases he was in heaven with sticky hands wrapped around his neck and kids pushing their faces towards his, but he got scared if people moved too fast on him.
> 
> Anyway... after 12 years of training kids and adults how to approach my golden properly, I'm very happy that I don't have to do that with my little guy. It makes his day to have people and children rush up to him. It hurts his golden hearted feelings if they don't.


 
I love this, and I get what you are saying. Often at shows people will tell their kids not to touch the dogs - they're hair is all fixed up! I say, "PLEASE pet the dogs, they LOVE IT!" They are Goldens, and they love kids, and I'd rather they be happy when they go in the ring. Hair can be combed.
I was at a show with Jib and he'd made a new friend outside the ring. She and her family stayed to watch, and the little girl would come stand outside the ring wherever we were. I let her reach over the gates to pet him, Jib was in HEAVEN. When we came out of the ring (WD!) he bee-lined straight for her to celebrate with HER!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Megora said:


> Anyway... after 12 years of training kids and adults how to approach my golden properly, I'm very happy that I don't have to do that with my little guy. It makes his day to have people and children rush up to him. *It hurts his golden hearted feelings if they don't.*


Aww. I know what you mean. Riley doesn't understand it when someone ignores him while walking past us. He gets this confused look on his face, like 'Hey, where ya goin'?' and will actually turn around and try to follow them.
Of course, if they DO acknowledge him, he wants no part of it and has no qualms about letting them know that... but he always looks absolutely crushed if they don't try! He's so weird.

And oddly enough, he always seems perfectly okay with little kids. We've had a few try to approach us and I don't see the same tense, nervous body language that I see when an adult approaches us. It's more curiosity with kids - like he's trying to figure out what these little miniature people are all about. I never let them get too close, though. I know he WILL bite if he gets too scared or feels threatened, so it's just not worth the risk, especially with kids.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I get to do both at the same time. My Selli is fine with kids in her face, but my Little Red Dog does not like kids, so I keep my eyes open at all times and have gotten used to heading off kids and sending them to pet Selli. Selli enjoys them for a minute but then she realizes they don't have treats and they bore her. I think I trained that into her while I was trying to get Duffy more comfortable with kids. I would have kids feed both dogs treats and Selli being the food motivated girl she is decided kids were only interesting if they feed her treats and Duffy who gladly takes treats from kids still thinks they are evil


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Megora said:


> Anyway... after 12 years of training kids and adults how to approach my golden properly, I'm very happy that I don't have to do that with my little guy. It makes his day to have people and children rush up to him. It hurts his golden hearted feelings if they don't.


Heehee, I know exactly what you mean. When we pass a child Flora immediately lights up and keeps glancing at the kid hopefully. A few days ago there was a couple with a baby in a little stroller and they wanted their kid to pet Flora, but when Flora peeped in the carriage the little girl just started crying. :doh: Flora was like, "What did I do?" Hah.


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

I still have scars from being attacked by my poodle (purebred) but never from my German Shepherd (also purebred). My Poodle was the result of a incestuous joining of his father/brother with his mother. I think this made him a tad unstable in the head along with our misconceptions of punishment based training that was popular at that time (1970's). 

I understand the Pit Bull mentality of people I group this breed in with Rottweilers. If they aren't treated with respect of the breed then things can and do go horribly wrong. They both are strong breeds and not just in their temperament. They are strong physically especially in their jaw area. Once they have a hold of something it's almost similar to an alligator or crocodile, whereas they don't have the locking mechanism they might as well have since it's almost impossible to open their mouth once their focus is on their 'prey', whether it be food, toy or unfortunately a human or animal. 

I don't believe they have the kill instinct unless it was put there by an irresponsible owner. I've met Pit Bull owners who believe that they have to be rough with the dog in order to have it submit, some even beat the poor animal. I've also seen attacks by Rotti's (my BIL 4 yr old niece was killed by her father's Rotti), it was just a case of the dog being at eye level with her and grabbed her by the throat. According, to the father it wasn't violent, just strength of the breed in the jaw area. In the same breath I have to say I know many who have the most sweetest, calm and gentle dog. Although, I have to say I wouldn't trust them if I was alone with them unless I knew them extremely well and was known by them from birth. I feel the same with many others breeds as well, I've seen Chihauhau's that attack viciously (we have one next door, little bratty, yappy, thing, even Bayne doesn't like the rodent). 

I would never walk up to a strange dog without the owner or someone being there to validate that the dog is friendly. Even my local pet store has a dog wandering around and I'll look to the clerk before I even extend my hand to the dog, even though I've been there before and seen the dog. Never assume just because he's in the store that a friendliness is there. Dogs react to different people. 

Although, my German Shepherd was friendly, there were 2 men who could not go near him, it was the first time I've ever seen him bare his teeth and the hackles come up. Later I found that these men abuse their own animals and my dog sensed this... even my poodle reacted negatively to these men.

This is long I know and it's not in defense of any breed just a generalization and awareness of how we need to take each breed and circumstance in it's own merit. Never, put all in the same context.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Since we've agreed not to debate the subject on the other thread about Leo, I want to make something really clear (as a response to the last post made there...)

I am absolutely NOT an advocate of BSL. Not because I am a fan of pit bulls (or any other banned breed) but because it is opening the door to AR groups to eliminate ALL breeding, and ultimately ownership of animals, and an end to animal industry. Period.


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> Since we've agreed not to debate the subject on the other thread about Leo, I want to make something really clear (as a response to the last post made there...)
> 
> I am absolutely NOT an advocate of BSL. Not because I am a fan of pit bulls (or any other banned breed) but because it is opening the door to AR groups to eliminate ALL breeding, and ultimately ownership of animals, and an end to animal industry. Period.


what is BSL? Is that about banning? Here in Ontario Canada our 'wonderful' Liberal government banned anyone from owning a pitbull from birth. All currently owned pitbulls have to be muzzled and registered with some database. It was so sad when this took place, many people started turning in their pitbulls and they were all euthanized instead of being fostered out or adopted. I have a friend who was able to rescue a pitbull before all this took place... it is the sweetest thing. I didn't even know the dog when I first arrived at his place and the dog was very gentle when it approached me. I didn't make a move towards it since I didn't know the dog, but I had no fear or negative vibe from her.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Deb_Bayne said:


> what is BSL? Is that about banning? Here in Ontario Canada our 'wonderful' Liberal government banned anyone from owning a pitbull from birth. All currently owned pitbulls have to be muzzled and registered with some database. It was so sad when this took place, many people started turning in their pitbulls and they were all euthanized instead of being fostered out or adopted. I have a friend who was able to rescue a pitbull before all this took place... it is the sweetest thing. I didn't even know the dog when I first arrived at his place and the dog was very gentle when it approached me. I didn't make a move towards it since I didn't know the dog, but I had no fear or negative vibe from her.


 
BSL - breed specific legislation.
AR - animal rights (ie PETA, H$U$, etc.)


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

As an owner of a APBT I can tell that yes I know my dog can be dog aggressive is she human aggressive NO if she were I would make the choice to have her put to sleep. I have already had to that with one APBT Chalice she became a dog I could not trust to not bite so I made the hard choice that no one wants to make I took her life. 

I have to tell you that I hate when people say pit bulls there is NO breed pit bulls there is the American Pit Bull Terrier ( APBT). They are a wonderful breed if you want to educate yourself and you are not into group activities. APBT make great search and rescue dogs, agility dogs, police dogs, therapy dogs, reading dogs, rally-o dogs they are by far the best weight pull dogs. 

My Vendetta is a therapy dog so was my Mikado in fact Mikado was the first APBT in my area to be a therapy dog he loved his job. 

APBT can be trained to hunt using blood trails. Down south they are used to hunt wild hogs.

I do agree that poor breeding practices are adding to the more unstable dogs we are seeing but if good breeders would sell their pups to responisble owners instead of just wanting to make a $$ off them we would not have this problem.

ATTS Breed Statistics | American Temperament Test Society, Inc.

You can agrue with these facts either.
*Golden Retriever **764 (tested) **649 (passed) **115 (failed) **84.9%*

*American Pit Bull Terrier **804 (tested) **695 (passed) **109 (failed) **86.4%*


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I know an obedience trainer here who has put OTCHs on two Am Staffs (AKC registered, but basically a pit type breed). They were beautiful, wonderful dogs, but Pat knew what she was dealing with and those dogs never offered bad behavior. 

It is my opinion that the bad people who want a bad a$$ dog are not looking for a Golden. They want a Pit., Rott., etc. They go hand in hand. That being said the press also likes to sensationalize dog attacks. I liken it to airline travel. How many thousands, heck millions of safe flights happen all over the world? You only hear about the crashes. There are many thousands of Pits, Rotts, GSDs (my first love) out there and you hear about the vicious attacks of a miniscule percentage of the total.

Are these dogs for everyone, absolutely not. But with every breed you have a variety of temperaments, even if it isn't always according to the breed standard. I know, I'm preaching to the choir, but I'm bored and wanted to get my 2 cents in for what it's worth.


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## AlanK (Jun 28, 2008)

goldensrbest said:


> In simple terms, the breeders breed them, in part, because people want them, now why do people want them?



I will not debate with anyone but with my experience locally in rural Georgia is I have seen young teens along with adults walking there Pit Bull dogs on a chain that could pull a log out of the woods, my guess is they are trying to make some sort of statement. Most of the time the same dog lives on the end of that chain. Those are the poor dogs that end up giving the breed a bad name when they harm someone.

I do not blame the breed just owners who want a mean dog and they get what they wish for.

My SIL has the most loving Pit you could ever cuddle up with. 

I still have a scar across my face from a little ankle biter puntable somthin or another that bit a hole through my nose. His owners still say he would never harm a soul.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

General V said:


> As an owner of a APBT I can tell that yes I know my dog can be dog aggressive is she human aggressive NO if she were I would make the choice to have her put to sleep. I have already had to that with one APBT Chalice she became a dog I could not trust to not bite so I made the hard choice that no one wants to make I took her life.
> 
> I have to tell you that I hate when people say pit bulls there is NO breed pit bulls there is the American Pit Bull Terrier ( APBT). They are a wonderful breed if you want to educate yourself and you are not into group activities. APBT make great search and rescue dogs, agility dogs, police dogs, therapy dogs, reading dogs, rally-o dogs they are by far the best weight pull dogs.
> 
> ...


 
On 4/18/02, I posted this on a thread called "This broke my heart." I am copying it here as I still feel the same way.

Excellent post, BJ. And it is good to hear an experienced APBT breeder/owner’s thoughts on the subject.

It is not true that APBT’s have the highest number of dogs passed. Doberman, GSD’s, and Rottweillers have far more. 

The ATTS statistics for 2008 can be found here:

http://www.atts.org/statistics.html

The percentages of breeds passing are relative to the number tested. 

Here are just a few examples:

*Breed Name T**ested **Passed **Failed **Percent*

*AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER **665 **567 **98 **85.3%*

*BOUVIER DES FLANDRES **862 **729 **133 **84.6%*

*COLLIE **831 **660 **171 **79.4%*

*DOBERMAN PINSCHER **1522 **1,178 **344 **77.4%*

*GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG **2929 **2,452 **477 **83.7%*

*GOLDEN RETRIEVER **720 **609 **111 **84.6%*

*LABRADOR RETRIEVER **721 **663 **58 **92.0%*

*ROTTWEILER **5097 **4,228 **869 **83.0%*



While the numbers can be useful, and are certainly interesting, it is what is done with them that counts, and what is done with the dogs, especially those who have failed, that matters. Knowing what caused the dog to fail should also be considered. The ATTS states
“*Failure on any part of the test is recognized when a dog shows panic, strong avoidance without recovery or unprovoked aggression.”*

The relative number of APBT’s tested is low, and you can bet that they were the best of the best. The owners/breeders being responsible. 
The relative number of Goldens and Labs tested is also low. A large number of those who do *test*, do so because they are doing specialized jobs such as service work, pet therapy , and S&R. I know many Golden and Lab owners who don’t *test*, because they are confident that their dogs have sound temperaments. I don’t particularly agree with that line of thinking, but it is what it is. I would find it very interesting to see how the numbers would change if _all _APBT’s and _all _Goldens and Labradors were tested. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that I’d bet that the percentage of passing for APBT’s would decrease dramatically, and that Goldens and Labs would remain fairly static. 
But it is very unlikely that Joe Macho is going to have Rambo tested . 

There are also breeds with very high – even 100% - passing percentages. Looking at the numbers, so what?

*Breed Name **Tested **Passed **Failed **Percent*

*AMERICAN FOXHOUND **2 **2 **0 **100.0%*

*AZAWAKH **1 **1 **0 **100.0%*

*BLACK AND TAN COONHOUND **13 **13 **0 **100.0%*

*BOYKIN SPANIEL **1 **1 **0 **100.0%*

*DOGO ARGENTINO **11 **10 **1 **90.9%*

*DOGO CANARIO **3 **3 **0 **100.0%*

*JACK RUSSELL TERRIER **3 **3 **0 **100.0%*

*KARELIAN BEAR DOG **2 **2 **0 **100.0%*

*PRESA CANARIO **28 **25 **3 **89.3%*

*TOSA **3 **3 **0 **100.0%*



If someone tells me that Dogo Argentinos and Tosas have a 100% TT passing rate, does this mean that I am going to trust these breeds and accept that they are cuddly sweethearts? Nope. But, then again, you aren’t very likely to see a Dogo or a Tosa on every corner in Miami, LA, Chicago, or San Antonio.

Although I support those who have their dogs tested, it is what they do with the results that count. Such as not breeding dogs that fail. Remember, too, that while the tests are supposed to determine the natural and inherent *temperament* of the dog once 18 months of age and older (the ATTS says “*No special preparation or training beyond normal socialization and exposure to normal living is necessary.**)*, they _can_ be trained and prepared for to an extent. I know people who train rather extensively for a TT. This is not going to provide accuracy as regards *temperament* so much as it would be for training. Also, a failed dog can retest once. 

So, while I applaud those _responsible_ APBT breeders who _are _doing *temperament* testing, (I don’t understand their lack of health clearances, though…) tossing about only partial truths, or even untruths such as ATTS statistics, and cut n pasted propaganda about how the media is to blame, the victims of APBT bites are to blame, and condoning practices that do in fact foster aggression does absolutely nothing to help the breed, and harms not only the responsible breeders of “bully breeds”, but the responsible breeders of ALL breeds as well, because BSL’s are just the first step. 
__________________


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Has a breed ever been banned in the usa?


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## AlanK (Jun 28, 2008)

goldensrbest said:


> Has a breed ever been banned in the usa?


Breed-Specific Laws (BSL) State by State - Legislating Dogs - DogsBite.org

I know some localities in Georgia have made very specific laws on dangerous dog ownership. Maybe not banned but pretty darn close


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

It is also important to realize, or know, what the ATT tests for. Number one for importance to this thread is that it says NOTHING about how the dog reacts to another dog. It is all about how a dog reacts to a human in certain situations. Many of the dogs, including APBT and other dogs who have a reputation for being dog aggressive like the Tosa, may have no problem with humans. 

My Dexy may not have passed the test because he was gun shy, maybe not great if I wanted to hunt with him, but I would have put his temperament up against any dog. There is also a portion where the dog has to distinguish between a friendly and a threatening person, they do say that they determine if the reaction is correct based on the breed, but if a Golden doesn't distinguish between a friendly and a threatening stranger and wants to love on everyone would that be a pass or a fail?


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> So, while I applaud those _responsible_ APBT breeders who _are _doing *temperament* testing, (I don’t understand their lack of health clearances, though…)


This surprised me, too. My favorite breeder for APBT and American Staffordshire Terriers, Gaff Kennels, doesn't health test all her dogs. A few, but not all. And your comment about those that believe that Pits do have large, broad heads being correct is so true. 

Check out some of Pam's dogs:

GAFF STUDS

Gaff Kennel Bitches

Also, just for those that don't know...American Staffordshire Terriers, (AKC), are registered as APBTs with the UKC.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

The statistics, of dog bites from pit bulls, from 2003, to 2010, is impressive.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

kwhit said:


> This surprised me, too. My favorite breeder for APBT and American Staffordshire Terriers, Gaff Kennels, doesn't health test all her dogs. A few, but not all. And your comment about those that believe that Pits do have large, broad heads being correct is so true.
> 
> Check out some of Pam's dogs:
> 
> ...


My dog doesn't look like any of those. Her head is not very big, she's definetly not that "bulky" looking, and she's much taller (almost Tucker's height).

Well... looks like I don't have a "Pitbull" afterall... back to lurking I go.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

kwhit said:


> This surprised me, too. My favorite breeder for APBT and American Staffordshire Terriers, Gaff Kennels, doesn't health test all her dogs. A few, but not all. And your comment about those that believe that Pits do have large, broad heads being correct is so true.
> 
> Check out some of Pam's dogs:
> 
> ...


Gaff dogs are NOT APBT they are Am.Bullies. This is a huge debate in the APBT world. Am. Bullies now have their own registery and most AM.Bully owners do not health test( I strongly disagree with this). The UKC and the ADBA should not allow Am. Bullies to be registered as APBT.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

The head of an APBT
American Pit Bull Terrier Network Head structure pit bull


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

The only reason I copied pasted goldens and APBT is because this is a golden forum and we are talking about APBT...I thought it was logical maybe not. I wasnt reffering to other breeds because I dont know about all those other breeds. I have had one doberman, took care of 2 others never had a prolem with them. I am not fond of rotties. I know some good german shepherds and some bad I personally wouldnt own one.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Selli-Belle said:


> ...There is also a portion where the dog has to distinguish between a friendly and a threatening person, they do say that they determine if the reaction is correct based on the breed, but if a Golden doesn't distinguish between a friendly and a threatening stranger and wants to love on everyone would that be a pass or a fail?


IIRC (I took the test with Ruby several years ago), it is a pass for a Golden, because the breed standard basically says that they are supposed to love everyone. Were this a Dobe or GSD, I believe it would be considered a temperament fault. I think it's good that they take actual breed character into account with this test, but like you said, it doesn't have any dog aggressive test in it. I don't think anyone disputes that a properly bred pit type dog is not supposed to be human aggressive, I thought this thread was about dog aggression?


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

IowaGold said:


> IIRC (I took the test with Ruby several years ago), it is a pass for a Golden, because the breed standard basically says that they are supposed to love everyone. Were this a Dobe or GSD, I believe it would be considered a temperament fault. I think it's good that they take actual breed character into account with this test, but like you said, it doesn't have any dog aggressive test in it. I don't think anyone disputes that a properly bred pit type dog is supposed to be human aggressive, I thought this thread was about dog aggression?


I really hope you meant to say they are not suppose to be human aggressive.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Ironically I only fell in love with goldens after I became a veterinarian..we had a client who bred and showed them. And although they were usually raised in the house as pups, they were mostly kennel dogs after that. Each and everyone that came in here was a joy. I could do anything to the dogs, no one had to hold them and they loved people. My Sally came from her (show/breeding reject due to luxating patella, but I had it repaired and showed her to her CDX. In fact and I don't mean to offend, part of the reason I hadn't liked them until then is that my childhood best friend had a near white English style golden that they liked to brag was English and it turned me off. 

My MIL thinks that I think goldens are the only good breed. I judge dog breeds at the vet's office. This is where they are most stressed and most likely to show their true colors. Not fond of Akitas, Chows, Shibas... I see a lot of nice pit type dogs, but many are undisciplined. Rotties, depending on their owners can go either way. I like dobies. Many dog breeds are what we make them... we had a client get bitten in our waiitng room by a golden!


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> Not fond of Akitas, Chows, Shibas...


Same here...I'm very "aware" when I'm around those breeds. Also with Dachshunds.  Love Dobes, Rotties and Shepherds. 

Aren't all Terriers somewhat dog reactive? I was at a show once where the Jack Russells got really "snarky" waiting to go in the ring, (saw this with the Westie's, too), and no one gave them a second look. If they were allowed to make contact, I'm pretty sure it would have been far from a friendly encounter.

At another show, two Am. Staffs. got into it at ringside and were allowed to show anyway. They had to get a break stick to separate them. One had his lip torn, (a lot of blood, there was sawdust all over the floor), and the other one had a nick out of his ear. The one with the torn lip placed although I don't remember what placement he took. This was at an AKC show years ago.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Selli-Belle said:


> Maybe this means that we, as Golden people, have a greater responsibility than people belonging to other breeds to be sure that either we do have dogs that are O.K. with children running up to them or we are really good at deflecting.


I have guys that would take an absolute surprise assault by a child without the slightest problem, and I do think that all dog owners have a responsibility to socialize and manage their dogs to ensure the safety of the people they meet, even the uneducated or foolish people.

At the same time, I think my biggest responsibility is to educate those parents so those kids don't get hurt the next time.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

kwhit said:


> Same here...I'm very "aware" when I'm around those breeds. Also with Dachshunds.  Love Dobes, Rotties and Shepherds.
> 
> Aren't all Terriers somewhat dog reactive? I was at a show once where the Jack Russells got really "snarky" waiting to go in the ring, (saw this with the Westie's, too), and no one gave them a second look. If they were allowed to make contact, I'm pretty sure it would have been far from a friendly encounter.
> 
> At another show, two Am. Staffs. got into it at ringside and were allowed to show anyway. They had to get a break stick to separate them. One had his lip torn, (a lot of blood, there was sawdust all over the floor), and the other one had a nick out of his ear. The one with the torn lip placed although I don't remember what placement he took. This was at an AKC show years ago.


I thought dogs would be dismissed from the show if they got in fights.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

General V said:


> I really hope you meant to say they are not suppose to be human aggressive.


 
Yes! Fixing it now!


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## Blondie (Oct 10, 2009)

LifeOfRiley said:


> Aww. I know what you mean. Riley doesn't understand it when someone ignores him while walking past us.


Maggie is the same way. It gnaws at me a bit, but then I remember to look at Maggie and tell her, "cat person." This helps me more than Maggie, but I do respect others that just aren't interested in dogs in general.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

kwhit said:


> Same here...I'm very "aware" when I'm around those breeds. Also with Dachshunds.  Love Dobes, Rotties and Shepherds.
> 
> Aren't all Terriers somewhat dog reactive? I was at a show once where the Jack Russells got really "snarky" waiting to go in the ring, (saw this with the Westie's, too), and no one gave them a second look. If they were allowed to make contact, I'm pretty sure it would have been far from a friendly encounter.
> 
> At another show, two Am. Staffs. got into it at ringside and were allowed to show anyway. They had to get a break stick to separate them. One had his lip torn, (a lot of blood, there was sawdust all over the floor), and the other one had a nick out of his ear. The one with the torn lip placed although I don't remember what placement he took. This was at an AKC show years ago.


Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a tradition in showing terriers where they have two terriers face each other and get a little worked up so they could see how they looked up on their toes and posturing. It also showed that the dogs were "game" or willing to get into it with another dog.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Selli-Belle said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a tradition in showing terriers where they have two terriers face each other and get a little worked up so they could see how they looked up on their toes and posturing. It also showed that the dogs were "game" or willing to get into it with another dog.


It is called "sparring". The dogs are NOT to show aggression, attitude, interest, and posture. Alertness and courage are terrier characteristics. When sparring, the dogs must be completely under control.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

And, not all terrier breeds spar.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

In practice for 25 years, I have been bitten(skin broken) by 2 dogs, one sent me to the doctor. One was a GSP, the other an Irish setter. I also had my forearm in a Kuvasz mouth, but she just bruised me. Other dogs with intent:maltese, PWD, wolf hybrids(one tried to bite me, bit the owner instead, and the owner said it was ok because he was really going for me..nice).... frequently don't trust Springers or boxers( I call them 2 faced as they lap your face and act like they like you, then snap whent hey want to). A nice stable European GSD is a pleasure to work on... I like Brittany's, shelties, collies....


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## cory (Aug 23, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> At the same time, I think my biggest responsibility is to educate those parents so those kids don't get hurt the next time.


I think this is so VERY important. As a mother of a child (5) that was just "warned" this week I can't stress that enough. There is a dog at our marina and I really don't know what breed he is but he is very large (I used to think he was pit bull but have now been educated) weighing about 120 pounds and is just muscle. He walks around the marina unleashed and is always very friendly but I always make the kids ask his owner if they can pet him. On Monday, they were petting him and all of sudden he growled and turned on my son with an open mouth and put his teeth on his face. Fortunately, he didn't bite down but walked away. He could have maimed/killed my son if he wanted to. We talked about it with him and he will no longer be allowed to pet this dog (either will my daughter) and I will not allow them to pet dogs unless I am right there.

There have been many times when kids have run up to both of my dogs and immediately started petting them. Dakota usually just lays down but as my other dog (Chihuahua/Pomerian) is getting older he is getting crankier. I don't understand how parents just let kids pet random dogs...they can be deadly...no matter what the breed.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> In practice for 25 years, I have been bitten(skin broken) by 2 dogs, one sent me to the doctor. One was a GSP, the other an Irish setter. I also had my forearm in a Kuvasz mouth, but she just bruised me. Other dogs with intent:maltese, PWD, wolf hybrids(one tried to bite me, bit the owner instead, and the owner said it was ok because he was really going for me..nice).... frequently don't trust Springers or boxers( I call them 2 faced as they lap your face and act like they like you, then snap whent hey want to). A nice stable European GSD is a pleasure to work on... I like Brittany's, shelties, collies....


For me it has been Malamutes, Chows, Springers, Dachshunds (Smooth). Scotties, poorly bred Cockers, and American Eskimos that have presented the worst temperaments. As far as bites, I was bitten by a Mal, and suffered a very bad bite from a Borzoi.

I've never met a bad Boxer, and really do like the breed as a whole. Plenty of mixed breeds have been evil... wolf-hybrids were very "in" here 25 years ago, thankfully no longer.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I always find it amazing how wonderful my dogs are with children. My boys are now 19 and 17 years, so obviously, most of my recent pups aren't raised with children. But all of my dogs gravitate to kids. They love to be hugged and petted... And PG, I am like you, at a dog show, I encourage kids to pet my dogs. However, I have seen "big breeders" and "big handlers"who get all nasty... don't mess up the hair....


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Forgot about the Am Cockers and the Am Eskimos... don't have any use for them either...Mini dachshunds are awful although longhairs are better...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> I always find it amazing how wonderful my dogs are with children. My boys are now 19 and 17 years, so obviously, most of my recent pups aren't raised with children. But all of my dogs gravitate to kids. They love to be hugged and petted... And PG, I am like you, at a dog show, I encourage kids to pet my dogs. However, I have seen "big breeders" and "big handlers"who get all nasty... don't mess up the hair....


Drives me NUTS. Poodles, maybe... I KNOW how difficult the grooming is, but GOLDENS????? Fuggedaboudit. :no:

*The Poodles I've shown were every bit as excited to see children as the Goldens, I will say...


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## booklady (Mar 3, 2009)

I've been really bitten twice - each time it was a schnauzer (two different dogs). I've been nibbled by many a chihuahua - just glad they aren't bigger or there would have been a lot more blood.

All of my dogs love people and get along well with most other dogs. The rottie is probably the most child friendly of the group and gets very confused when people are afraid of him...he doesn't help matters when he "talks" to them...he's saying I love you, they hear I want to rip out your jugular. He has been my fostering assistant and has greeted each new dog with joy and love, taught them the ropes and mourned when each one left. He's been around so many goldens that he's picked up the "soft mouth" technique...in fact, he's the only dog to have been bitten during play - just a slip (and an expensive absess), but he has incredible bite inhibition.

My goldens love people too, but little kids get a bit overwhelming due to their physical problems and age. Buddy loves everyone and is very tollerant, but grabby or hugging kids do try his patience. Kyra, being blind and deaf, is terrified of small beings running at her...she has no teeth so even if she wanted to she couldn't hurt anyone, but she is one who suffers due to the touted golden personality.

Each one of my dogs has it's own fan club, but Chance, the rottie, has the toughest hill to climb simply because of his breed....and he's the biggest marshmellow of the crew. "Good Dog, Carl" probably had a great deal to do with the potential ruination of a steady, guardian breed - not vicious, but alert and protective - more likely to block than to bite. Chance views any child as his responsibility and will stand between the child a stranger every time, he is not aggressive - just letting it be known that nothing bad will happen on his watch.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

I'm sure everyone on my block thinks Tinkerbell is a mean dog when they first start coming by. We've had problems with kids and adults rushing right up to her, not asking. I'm quick to put a stop to that, since usually if Tink is off the porch someone is outside with her. As soon as some starts just walking up I am right next to Tink and grabbing her collar, makes people suddenly slow down and often stop.

Anyone that has met Tink can tell you she is such a people lover it is ridiculus. But she is not around a lot of young children so is not familiar with their unpredictable actions, so better safe than sorry. Plus she tends to get so excited...while I don't worry about her biting I worry about her accidently knocking someone over.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

What do iknow about pits? Well, the people who use to live cattycorner tous and our fences met had some and any time my dogs went down to the coerner, which ever one was out tried to get thru the fence at them. Kaycee and honey finally would not go down to the end of the yard. Also those people would hang bones or chunks ofmeat from the tree, the dog woudl leap up and grab it and swing. I was told that was to make their jaws more powerfull. One one at a time was loose in the yard, according to neighbors behind us and next to us. When one almost almost tore up a section of fence trying to get to neighbors dog, theycalled cops and said the people wre raising fighting dogs--and the people and dog were gone a couple of days later.

Little girl two houses down was attacked by a pit/boxer mis and it did everything it could to kill her. Police killed it on the spot. She was chasing ubtterflies on side walk and it went after her. It actually bit both arms, leg, head, face. Her dad was out to sea (navy) and was flown back in as she required several operations.

Jerry ws walking buck (and buck was almost 12 at the time) and a pit at the end of our street came after buck. Jerry got between buck and the pit and the pit didn't pay any attention to jerry was bound and determined to get buck. It's owner happened to be in the yard and he grabbed it by collar and it wa still lunging and snarling at buck. Guy said he didn't know how it got out.

We live on a horse shoe shaped street with no side streets. That pit was at house at the open end of the horseshoe and there was not way we could walk a dog eithe way without a chance of it being attacked if that dog was out. We didnt' walk our dogs.

Now, my 19 year old nephew took in a stray pit lat november. When we went up at vchristas and that dog came running to me i almost had a heart attack. But deezle almost drowned me with kisses. The vet said she is about 4 and had been used as a breeded. She andtheir mutt and myneices 13 inche beagle hitit off at once. In face, deezle is a little scared of the beagle, piper. Deezle has gotten on very well with every dog she has met and loves all people. 

Then my lunatic neice (different family) went out and bougt a pit, a red nose pit. This girl is crazy, all the family (except her parents) think she needs to me in a mnetal hospital. She is 19 and has a 4 year old son. She uses horrible language and is getting tattooed all ove her body trying to be a tough girl, and the dog was to add to the image. She use had 11 daimonds tattooed down her right arm from just under her baseball tat to her wrist. Are diamonds like is on a jewlers' sign, etc. And she posted on fb "i am strong as a dimaond now, bring it on bitch." this is the type of person that has no business have a pit. As my nephew (her cousin) said, she is the last person on earth who should have one.

So that is my expericnces with pits.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

By the way pgf, i love, love, love the picture of the pointers. I gew up with pointers and english setters. Mot of our pointers were liver and white, but did have one black & white (lady), and two what daddy called lemon & white, lucky 11 and ketcho. All were great quail dogs.


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## Joe and Sam's Mom (Sep 2, 2007)

My old boys are perfectly fine saying hello to anyone but when asked if they bite, I say that I would be surprised if they did, but they are dogs!

The other day at the park (on leash) we came upon a man with two "Min-pins". These two little guy were pulling him along like a couple of sled dogs and they were both wearing gentle leader type harnesses, obviously to no avail. When they spotted my dogs they were growling, lunging and snarling and just downright nasty. My guys just wagged their tails and were told to sit and let them go by. I felt badly for the owner who seemed to be having such a hard time. Then, all of a sudden one of the dogs broke free of his leash and just attacked my two. Joe and Sam were standing side by side and the little monster was on his hind legs between their necks, snapping and just looking so viscious. He kind of reminded me of the Gremlins movie! The owner grabbed him, the dog screamed and he threw him to the ground in an "alpha roll" (Ceasar would have been proud) all the time yelling "Bad Bailey". It was quite a show. 

My guys were fine and stood there wagging at the little monster as if they wanted him to come back and play some more. Sam even pay bowed at him 

The owner was very apologetic, but never asked if my guys were okay, though I guess it was fairly obvious that they were.

Another dog walker told me a little later that a local pit bull has supposedly killed a poodle. I said, "I don't know about the pit bulls, but I would watch out for the Min-pins!"


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## desi.n.nutro (Mar 18, 2011)

goldensrbest said:


> Do you feel there is something, that is just natural to them, that they want to attack, be it horse, dogs, people?


I don't think it is a natural attack mode. I do think they are natural defenders and very stong. Mix in big and you have double trouble.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Joe and Sam were standing side by side and the little monster was on his hind legs between their necks, snapping and just looking so viscious. He kind of reminded me of the Gremlins movie!


I'm thinking about our next door neighbor's minpin and just imagining. 

She's 17 years old now and was our Danny's playbuddy back when they both were young and was there to play with Jacks as well even though her head is practically all white now. <- One thing I know about her is she doesn't realize she is a little dog. If you walk past her property and she's outside, you generally will have a little dog run out to yell at you and make sure you keep going. She's adorable.

The closest I ever came to dealing with an aggressive little dog was our neighbors little beagle dangling from Danny's neck and going after his legs. <- Danny had almost a triple coat protecting him but it was insane. <- And I really like beagles so I'm not against them all just because of that dog who actually is doing much better now that his owner moved away and left the house and dog with her brother who has that dog outside with him or going out and about with him. That dog is getting socialized and is kept too active for him to think about glaring at goldens.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

Jaro really likes kids, well everyone really. There is a little guy, just over a year, who lives a few houses down from us who loves Jaro. When they go walking by and Jaro is sitting at the front glass door the little guy wants so much to come see Jaro and Jaro gets very excited, wiggly butt etc. When the baby was smaller and the weather better and my husband was walking Jaro more he would stop and let the him meet the baby. I went crazy, telling him you can't let a puppy meet a baby in a stroller (mom is dog friendly) but I guess they were right and not me--but I am way overprotective with my kids (all now grown) and animals. And Jaro has had plenty of exposture to children because our grandson lived with us until recently and we have gone to the school bus stop every school day since Jaro was a wee pup. Now our good neighbors have a pit mix, and well let's just say I am not lettin Jaro near him, even though he seems fine with people.


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