# Cesar Milan and ecollars



## Chritty

He choked a dog once saying he had to "reset it's brain". His method of doing this was to asphyxiate the dog because his belief is that depriving the dog's brain of oxygen would reboot the dog's brain. 

I know the point that you're getting at but I thought it might be worth knowing that his choice of words may not mirror his actions


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## Anon-2130948gsoni

My problem with this recommendation is that too many people watching will decide that means it's okay. People can bring a lot of emotional baggage to their relationship with their dogs, and issues about control, power, love, discipline, and ego can be transferred into what should be a positive partnership. Add in the reality that many people want a quick fix to a dog they're already frustrated with...

In expert hands, with certain dogs, and in certain activities, it's a tool. In most hands, it's a weapon.

Personally, i have no interest in shocking any part of my dogs, let alone their brains.


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## Test-ok

I've heard the same thing, as I recall the Husky was chewing up the arm of some gal that was walking her dog...I think the brain did need a reboot, you can't let a red zone dog of that size and strength escalate like that...and what he did worked. A lot of people claim he hits, kicks dogs too, and what I've seen over and over again is not what one would a hit or a kick. How I'd describe it is his hit is a quick tap to the neck and his kick is a tap to the hind quarters with his foot...neither carries any pain but it changes the dogs thinking or the dog's brain [mind].

I saw the 911 the other day too with the Bull Dog..it worked perfectly. 
I agree with this too.


> "Used properly, ecollars are not abusive."


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## Anon-2130948gsoni

I have one more thought...this a television show. I've been involved in television production myself, and what you see is a fraction of what is filmed. So it's possible it "worked," long enough for one take that looked good.

What you don't see is the dog's behavior later on after it's been shocked several times or, the takes when nothing worked or the dog shrieked or panicked and dragged the owner for half a block. In fact, you probably don't see a single time when his advice doesn't work miracles, because it's entertainment, not reality.


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## Test-ok

Good point...so we really don't have all the facts to base an opinion on his tactic, good or bad.
falls under believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.


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## Claudia M

Noreaster said:


> I have one more thought...this a television show. I've been involved in television production myself, and what you see is a fraction of what is filmed. So it's possible it "worked," long enough for one take that looked good.
> 
> What you don't see is the dog's behavior later on after it's been shocked several times or, the takes when nothing worked or the dog shrieked or panicked and dragged the owner for half a block. In fact, you probably don't see a single time when his advice doesn't work miracles, because it's entertainment, not reality.


ummmm, I have used the e-collar on my girls. None shrieked, panicked or dragged me blocks away. 

I did not see the tapes but from what Noreaster is describing above I guess the tape ended immediately afterwards as most dogs that are caused to shriek, panic and drag their owner would more than likely not go back or go back in full attack mode.


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## lhowemt

He is an idiot, in general.


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## Tennyson

Chritty said:


> He choked a dog once saying he had to "reset it's brain". His method of doing this was to asphyxiate the dog because his belief is that depriving the dog's brain of oxygen would reboot the dog's brain.
> 
> I know the point that you're getting at but I thought it might be worth knowing that his choice of words may not mirror his actions


 Milan hung that husky with a rope. Rogue butchers in the Far East hang dogs to make the meat sweeter.
My dog's vet is the contract vet for cultural events in our city. Milan had a show at an event center. He drop kicked his "show" bull terrier in to it's cage after his show. Pup wasn't stellar on stage.
I have no problem with e-collars in the hands of a properly trained owner. I have a problem with e-collar's in this maniac's hands and the $$$$ he's going to make off his endorsements from the novice trainers.


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## Claudia M

lhowemt said:


> He is an idiot, in general.


???

I do not care much about Cesar Milan, don't have much time for TV shows. I have watched a couple episodes two years ago. From what I could see the guy can connect with dogs and the dogs that he does see are already damaged by clueless owners. A pretty tough job.


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## laprincessa

I don't agree with everything he does or says - but to just dismiss someone as an "idiot" is not helpful. 

That said, I agree with Noreaster - this may make ecollars more attractive to people who are not trained with them, don't know how to use them, and end up abusing their dogs while thinking that they're just training them. (Not taking sides in the ecollar debate - it's not for me, but I have friends who swear by them.)


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## Marcus

I personally don't like his methods. And I get that he isn't training dogs, he is trying fix broken dogs...

Having said that.


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## Test-ok

Yea he really doesn't train dogs..he trains people.


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## CAROLINA MOM

I'd certainly hate to think of someone shocking my brain to reboot it because of a bad habit............

I'm an old girl and I've got quite a few of them.


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## goldlover68

Hey Carolina Mom,
Sorry to break it to you, but electric shock is still a treatment for mental disorders! 

Now I am not suggesting this is anything you should be concerned about, but wanted to let you know, sometimes it is still considered a treatment option...


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## Leslie B

Noreaster said:


> I have one more thought...this a television show. I've been involved in television production myself, and what you see is a fraction of what is filmed. So it's possible it "worked," long enough for one take that looked good.
> 
> *What you don't see is the dog's behavior later on after it's been shocked several times or, the takes when nothing worked or the dog shrieked or panicked and dragged the owner for half a block. In fact, you probably don't see a single time when his advice doesn't work miracles, because it's entertainment, not reality*.


 
Or what you don't see is when the dog goes home and is a better pet for having some boundaries reinforced. You just don't know. Guessing is just that - guessing. 

I can tell you that my husband went to work with a year old pup of ours yesterday that my sister in law has. Out came the e collar that the pup has been properly conditioned to. He put her thru some drills and "reminded" with the collar when she did not repond correctly to the commands. It was not harsh but she did receive a number of corrections. My sister in law called back later in the day and she did not tell me that the dog had bolted, shreiked, or panicked. No, she was delighted because the dog was so much better behaved and seemed calmer. Surprise - dogs like to know what is expected of them.


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## Alaska7133

One thing to remember e-collars have a variety of settings. It's not like it's all or nothing. The lowest setting is barely perceptible. The highest definitely gets your attention. With lots of settings in between. You chose what the situation dictates. Some dogs react to very low settings, some do not. Every dog is different as is every situation. I do believe that you need to work with someone who understands how e-collars work before you attempt the introduction on your own.

I use e-collars and I like using them. I do believe it has helped with many behaviors. 

Here's a link to some wonderful videos that Bill Hillmann developed for e-collar training. He uses the collar to mainly reinforce a command rather than correct for behavior issues. Which is another option with e-collars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJQXUn4Nb_Q

Pat Nolan, Connie Cleveland, and Janice Gunn all use e-collars. They are all very well regarded dog trainers and have a long history of training dogs to the highest level. Visit any of their youtube pages to get a taste of their training styles.


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## CAROLINA MOM

goldlover68 said:


> Hey Carolina Mom,
> Sorry to break it to you, but electric shock is still a treatment for mental disorders!
> 
> Now I am not suggesting this is anything you should be concerned about, but wanted to let you know, sometimes it is still considered a treatment option...



I'm aware of it and I am thanking my lucky stars I've never had a need for it and pray I don't someday.


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## Test-ok

> dogs like to know what is expected of them.


Yes they sure do...They want to please their humans...in fact they strive to do so.


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## laprincessa

Test-ok said:


> Yes they sure do...They want to please their humans...in fact they strive to do so.


You've never met my friend's dog - her goal in life is to leave as many bruises on me as she can. 
Currently sporting a fat lip from her head butt - yeah, that would be me.


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## Tennyson

goldlover68 said:


> Hey Carolina Mom,
> Sorry to break it to you, but electric shock is still a treatment for mental disorders!
> 
> Now I am not suggesting this is anything you should be concerned about, but wanted to let you know, sometimes it is still considered a treatment option...


It's called electric convulsive treatment. ECT.
In 1961 Hemmingway had an ECT at the well respected Mayo Clinic.
A week later he blew his brains out.


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## goldlover68

CAROLINA MOM said:


> I'm aware of it and I am thanking my lucky stars I've never had a need for it and pray I don't someday.


Yep, you and me both....I know many on here would like to give me a little 'shock treatment'....but that is the fun of it all!:bowl:


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## goldlover68

Tennyson said:


> It's called electric current treatment. ECT.
> In 1961 Hemmingway had an ECT at the well respected Mayo Clinic.
> A week later he blew his brains out.


Sounds like back in 1961 they had not quite figured it out! Maybe a bit to much current for a bit to long...! He as a great writer, but a bit off I think like many real creative people. :doh:


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## laprincessa

Tennyson said:


> It's called electric current treatment. ECT.
> In 1961 Hemmingway had an ECT at the well respected Mayo Clinic.
> A week later he blew his brains out.


Doesn't Carrie Fisher have this treatment on a regular basis? I seem to remember reading something about it.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni

Don't try this at home, kids!

Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) Definition - Tests and Procedures - Mayo Clinic


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## Tennyson

laprincessa said:


> Doesn't Carrie Fisher have this treatment on a regular basis? I seem to remember reading something about it.


She was diagnosed with bi-polar disorder and from what I've read she uses ECT to "blow the cement out of her brain." She was addicted to every drug available on the street.
Vladimir Horowitz was also treated with ECT.


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## Test-ok

laprincessa said:


> You've never met my friend's dog - her goal in life is to leave as many bruises on me as she can.
> Currently sporting a fat lip from her head butt - yeah, that would be me.


Thats funny..You still have a pup, but she isn't really wanting to leave bruises on ya..but I hear ya!! I'm Dutch and have that skin like cellophane and my arms look like I was attacked by eagles (yea more than one  ). Now the fat lip..that sounds like a personal problem...Stop busting yer puppys head with yer lips. lol


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## laprincessa

Test-ok said:


> Thats funny..You still have a pup, but she isn't really wanting to leave bruises on ya..but I hear ya!! I'm Dutch and have that skin like cellophane and my arms look like I was attacked by eagles (yea more than one  ). Now the fat lip..that sounds like a personal problem...Stop busting yer puppys head with yer lips. lol


It's not my dog. This dog has no manners at all. Max would never have been allowed to act like this dog does. 

My point was - it's not necessarily true that dogs live to please us. This dog lives to get what she wants, and what she wants is to play rough with any creature in close proximity, or to eat anything not nailed down. Think Marley on crack, and you're close to this dog's behavior. 

I love the dog, most days. Not so much right now. She jumped on me, as I was looking down - my chin connected with her head. She also jumped on an 80 year old lady, who thankfully was close enough to us that we kept her from falling.


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## lhowemt

laprincessa said:


> I don't agree with everything he does or says - but to just dismiss someone as an "idiot" is not helpful.


I was being generous by only calling him an idiot. it is my opinion, that is all.


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## Test-ok

Opinions are fine and everyone has one..however you might want to add why you've come to that conclusion...just calling someone a general idiot doesn't say anything. But then thats just my opinion.



> I was being generous by only calling him an idiot. it is my opinion, that is all.


 doesn't say anything either other than your opinion.


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## Anele

I know someone who had shock treatment done a few years ago. She is a genius ( per her IQ) and has her law degree. As a result of her shock treatment she is on permanent disability for memory loss issues. Can no longer work as an attorney.

I watched an episode of 911 about a dog who was extremely fear aggressive. Whatever Cesar did, did not work. The dog was still afraid and biting.


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## thorbreafortuna

It stands to reason that if a dog is fear aggressive intimidation will not work. This coming from someone that is not a trainer but who simply doesn't want to have that kind of relationship with her dog.
I will say this: I have never watched Cesar Milan's show so I can't comment on it. I have, however come across some of his advice in the internet blogs and not all of it seems to align with the tactics that I and most on this forum object to. I have actually read some fairly moderate common sense advice. Could he have moderated his position in recent years? He wouldn't be the first trainer coming from the dominance mindset that changes his mind to some extent in the last decade.


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## Anele

thorbreafortuna said:


> It stands to reason that if a dog is fear aggressive intimidation will not work.


Absolutely. The dog still looked terrified. I think fear is at the root of most problems, so that is why people should use great caution when considering his methods.

All of his advice isn't terrible, for sure. And, his show is good to help learn body language, think of what one might do instead, etc.


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## Tennyson

goldlover68 said:


> Sounds like back in 1961 they had not quite figured it out! Maybe a bit to much current for a bit to long...! He as a great writer, but a bit off I think like many real creative people. :doh:


 He blew his brains out in Idaho because his memory was wiped out. He told his wife that his memory was his resource and his capital.


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## lhowemt

Anele said:


> I know someone who had shock treatment done a few years ago. She is a genius ( per her IQ) and has her law degree. As a result of her shock treatment she is on permanent disability for memory loss issues. Can no longer work as an attorney.


I think he is a dog bully. He doesn't create a relationship with the dogs that comes anywhere near good. I had an epiphany years ago about what kind of relationship I wanted with my dogs. After reading "The other end of the leash" I realized that there was so much more to be gained from my relationship with my dogs by helping them learn to want to make the right choices as opposed to dominating them into it. He pressures and stresses dogs and uses that fear to control them. And when they lash out he is clueless. His understanding of dog's body language ( their main method of communication) is nonexistent.


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## Claudia M

I must admit this thread has made me watch some of his videos. Personally do not find him clueless. He seems to have great communication with the dogs and understands their issues in most part. 
I am glad that I do not have to deal with the problem dogs as he does. Actually in one video the dog was so much for the owners he actually kept the dog. here was no way hat dog could have been trained and maintained by the owners. The dog more than likely would have been put down or caused bodily injury to either te owners or neighbors.


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## lhowemt

He is in classic idiotic form here

https://youtu.be/9ihXq_WwiWM


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## Jersey's Mom

lhowemt said:


> He is in classic idiotic form here
> 
> https://youtu.be/9ihXq_WwiWM



How about the episode with the two hyperactive golden retrievers? In the episode that originally aired, he "tapped" one of them with his foot hard enough to lift all 4 feet off the ground. Interestingly enough, that clip is no longer available anywhere online. Many of his "brightest" moments aren't anymore. I've never seen such a censored online presence from a celebrity before. Unfortunately, that leaves those who research him now with a really muddled view of exactly what it is that he does. A clip from the walk with one of those dogs is still available though. It is pretty amusing to see him come so unglued dealing with a dog who really only needs a little training and a lot of exercise. I am with you. He tries too hard to sound like he has any idea what he is doing, making it up as he goes with nonsense and pseudo-psycho babble and it just leaves him looking ignorant. 

This has nothing to do with the e collar as a tool and is not an indictment of those who choose to use them. I agree with others who have suggested he is somewhat of a liability as an ally. 

Julie and the boys


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## Claudia M

I have actually seen this video. I personally do not see anything wrong. Have you ever seen or broken up a dog fight? Are you scared that he hurt the dog? 

Here is the same dog after he took him onto his property. Looks like the dog is terrified of him, submissive, in constant fear and living a horrible life..... not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlN6NsbWAQg

ETA - posted the wrong link.


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## Anele

lhowemt said:


> I think he is a dog bully. He doesn't create a relationship with the dogs that comes anywhere near good. I had an epiphany years ago about what kind of relationship I wanted with my dogs. After reading "The other end of the leash" I realized that there was so much more to be gained from my relationship with my dogs by helping them learn to want to make the right choices as opposed to dominating them into it. He pressures and stresses dogs and uses that fear to control them. And when they lash out he is clueless. His understanding of dog's body language ( their main method of communication) is nonexistent.


I think (based on the few episodes I watched) that he DOES understand dog body language. However, he doesn't use the information in a way that helps the dog. As in, he will correctly report that a dog is fearful, but then do things to the dog that only mask the fear-- temporarily. Other times, I think he knows but lies for the camera, because it will make him look bad if he tells the truth.

His calm/assertive motto is good. At least the masses will know that yelling at a dog is wrong. I also saw him play with dogs-- so very basic but some dog owners never do it. 

I wonder if, had he not become famous, if he would change methods but now it's his trademark style.


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## Jersey's Mom

Anele said:


> I think (based on the few episodes I watched) that he DOES understand dog body language. However, he doesn't use the information in a way that helps the dog. As in, he will correctly report that a dog is fearful, but then do things to the dog that only mask the fear-- temporarily. Other times, I think he knows but lies for the camera, because it will make him look bad if he tells the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> His calm/assertive motto is good. At least the masses will know that yelling at a dog is wrong. I also saw him play with dogs-- so very basic but some dog owners never do it.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if, had he not become famous, if he would change methods but now it's his trademark style.



Sometimes, not always. The video posted above is a great example of him just not getting it. He puts down the food bowl and notes that the dog is "unsure, not submissive." With no change in the dog's state of mind, he releases the dog to eat and then immediately gets up into his space. Nobody should be surprised at the result.... All the signs were there. Then after things start to settle down, he focuses more on his preaching nonsense than he does on the dog. That dog remained anxious throughout.... And even if he was submissive for a moment (I'm not convinced he really was), someone who understood that a dog who has gone over threshold will take very little provocation to get there again would never have been so cocky and arrogant as to put his hand up over the dog's snout. Again, the outcome isn't surprising to anyone who knows anything about dogs.... except Cesar, apparently. Every "bad" behavior by the dog in that session was directly caused by CM's ignorance of how to handle the situation. And that type of scenario (complete mishandling leading to an out of control situation) is much more the rule than the exception when it comes to Cesar Millan. 

Julie and the boys


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## Anele

Jersey's Mom said:


> Sometimes, not always. The video posted above is a great example of him just not getting it. He puts down the food bowl and notes that the dog is "unsure, not submissive." With no change in the dog's state of mind, he releases the dog to eat and then immediately gets up into his space. Nobody should be surprised at the result.... All the signs were there. Then after things start to settle down, he focuses more on his preaching nonsense than he does on the dog. That dog remained anxious throughout.... And even if he was submissive for a moment (I'm not convinced he really was), someone who understood that a dog who has gone over threshold will take very little provocation to get there again would never have been so cocky and arrogant as to put his hand up over the dog's snout. Again, the outcome isn't surprising to anyone who knows anything about dogs.... except Cesar, apparently. Every "bad" behavior by the dog in that session was directly caused by CM's ignorance of how to handle the situation. And that type of scenario (complete mishandling leading to an out of control situation) is much more the rule than the exception when it comes to Cesar Millan.
> 
> Julie and the boys


I was pained watching that video. And you are right, if he TRULY understood body language, he would not have been bitten in that scenario-- however, I also think it happened not only b/c of lack of knowledge, but as you said, because of arrogance. Even if he has a moment of hesitation, his arrogance will override it all.

I felt very sorry for that dog, and it seems he just set the dog back even further by what he did. 

I would suspect that the way he "teaches" how to address resource guarding is one of the most damaging aspects of what he does. Not only will the method not resolve it, but it may create RG issues in dogs where there were none. It seems so prevalent, too-- people walking around getting in the face of their dogs while eating, taking bowls away, messing with their food, etc. Why? WHY??? At least in the "old days" everyone knew not to mess with a dog who was eating. Now we know even better ways to prevent it, but at least the old way was common sense and would do no harm.


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## Swampcollie

Mr.Milan would not be my first choice when recommending somebody to teach proper use (when and where) of an E-collar.


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## lhowemt

Claudia M said:


> I have actually seen this video. I personally do not see anything wrong. Have you ever seen or broken up a dog fight? Are you scared that he hurt the dog?


Absolutely he hurt the dog. Hurting comes in many forms. What he did was create a situation that was avoidable where the dog showed that she is a biter. That is a horrible thing to do with a dog, now the owners will always have that in the back of their mind. Also, he only reinforced for her that she needs to defend her food and herself against dangerous people. I believe he reinforced the behavior and so it will be harder to get rid of. Emotional trauma is extremely damaging. There are many ways to ruin a dog.

This was not a dog fight, he created the situation by not reading her body language and continued to pressure her heavily. After she finally diffused a bit he acted oblivious to the intense reaction that she just had and behaved in an unsafe manner that easily triggered her feeling the dangerous man was yet again threatening her.


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## Claudia M

lhowemt said:


> Absolutely he hurt the dog. Hurting comes in many forms. What he did was create a situation that was avoidable where the dog showed that she is a biter. That is a horrible thing to do with a dog, now the owners will always have that in the back of their mind. Also, he only reinforced for her that she needs to defend her food and herself against dangerous people. I believe he reinforced the behavior and so it will be harder to get rid of. Emotional trauma is extremely damaging. There are many ways to ruin a dog.
> 
> This was not a dog fight, he created the situation by not reading her body language and continued to pressure her heavily. After she finally diffused a bit he acted oblivious to the intense reaction that she just had and behaved in an unsafe manner that easily triggered her feeling the dangerous man was yet again threatening her.


I just corrected the link. The dog is doing just fine and the dog is no longer with the owners. And if a dog attacks you don't train that dog with cookies and bacon bits. It helps to watch the entire episode instead of just snippets....
How would you have trained that dog?


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## lhowemt

Claudia M said:


> I just corrected the link. The dog is doing just fine and the dog is no longer with the owners. And if a dog attacks you don't train that dog with cookies and bacon bits. It helps to watch the entire episode instead of just snippets....
> How would you have trained that dog?


I am not going to engage in a never ending and baiting nit-picking debate. I have mostly said my peace.


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## GoldenSkies

Interesting... I have always considered him to be a really smart man when it comes to dog training... But now after reading through this entire thread I am thinking to myself that maybe I just jumped on the band wagon, I never really questioned any of his methods because I never heard any one else questioning them.. I did read his book called "how to raise the perfect dog" right before we adopted Chester..
It helped me tons and once we had him I went back to specific chapters to help me get through some of the stages (like crate training, walking on the leash).. but I can honestly say I wasn't able to follow through with any single thing in there 100%. I sort of thought of it as guidelines but I always got to a point where I was just too much of a softy to be that strong, calm and assertive owner. That being said I was able to get through the tough parts and train Chester but I also thought that there was no way to follow Ceasers methods completely because every dog is very different and there were things that would probably work for most dogs but just didn't work for mine. 
I guess it's sort of a learning experience. I have no real opinion on e-collars, I don't know enough about them, I've never owned one, and I think I'll probably never need to.

Regardless, I always thought it was really great how Cesar took so many dogs into his rehab center and all the money and attention he provided for them. (obviously as long as he does not mistreat them as some people have suggested in this thread)


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## Test-ok

Cesar is much better at training people than dogs, which is the main issue why dogs are not balanced. On the shock collar, good or bad I'll never need to go to that extreme.


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## Jersey's Mom

Test-ok said:


> Cesar is much better at training people than dogs, which is the main issue why dogs are not balanced. On the shock collar, good or bad I'll never need to go that extreme.


I've always felt his excuse that he "trains people, not dogs" is complete rubbish. Every dog trainer on the planet has to train the people as much (or more) as the dogs. In the meantime he is putting his hands, feet, choke chains, and now e-collars on the dogs. The whole process goes a lot more effectively if the trainer actually has a working knowledge of canine behavior and body language, as well as a variety of training techniques. 

Julie and the boys


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## Claudia M

It is so easy to criticize from the comfy chair. So far I have yet to see a video of the critics on how they handled this dog or similar. And I have read so many who have gone from behaviorist to behaviorist with no results of whatsoever and even an aggravation of the situation. 
People make mistakes in handling an obedient dog. Some even turn them aggressive. But I doubt many have the courage to post their training videos when dealing with such dogs, if they ever dealt with them.


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## Goldylover2

Claudia M said:


> ???
> 
> I do not care much about Cesar Milan, don't have much time for TV shows. I have watched a couple episodes two years ago. From what I could see the guy can connect with dogs and the dogs that he does see are already damaged by clueless owners. A pretty tough job.


You nailed it. These dogs already have serious issues because the owner didn't know how to correct it from the start. He tries to train the owners and rehabilitates the dogs. I see nothing wrong with his training methods. I've gotten frustrated with my golden pup months ago and was losing the battle. He wears a prong collar in the house with a nylon rope attached to it. And I also use an e-collar at times. This of course was all done after seeing a trainer. These tools work.


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## Goldylover2

Ninety nine percent of you wouldn't have a clue on how to fix the issues with the owners and dogs on Milan's show. Some of the issues are so off the wall, you wouldn't know where to start. I guess it's easy judging from behind your computer screen.


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## Jersey's Mom

Goldylover2 said:


> Ninety nine percent of you wouldn't have a clue on how to fix the issues with the owners and dogs on Milan's show. Some of the issues are so off the wall, you wouldn't know where to start. I guess it's easy judging from behind your computer screen.



You're right. I probably wouldn't. But I don't claim to. And I'm not on TV pretending to be something I am not. 

I'm curious as to why you are permitted to be his fan and agree with him while having absolutely no expertise and yet you are belittling me (and others) for being fans of/agreeing with any of the very large number of experts in the field who have denounced him -- you know, those folks with actual education and training. The everyday heroes who save dogs from the fate of death row every day. The folks that have to undo the damage done by Joe Schmo watching some of Cesar's shows and deciding he can do that too. The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior, for just one example. An exhaustive list would keep me up for hours.... If you are interested, feel free to Google. 

And for those who believe he is doing such wonderful work in his sanctuary, look up Gus. It turns out that Cesar is too busy promoting himself and making money off his loyal followers to actually work with the dogs he brings in himself. Personally, I don't believe that dog would have been any better off had CM come down from his soapbox to "rehabilitate" him.... but I guess we will never know. But hey, at least he was on set to film his new show and inspire a bunch of average owners to slap an e collar on without even the benefit of a professional to guide them. Apparently he does still work with some dogs, though. Like the Great Dane he was walking with a bunch of other dogs off leash last year.... That Dane wound up biting his neighbor. How could anyone ever question expertise like that? Hail Cesar!

Julie and the boys


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## Test-ok

> You're right. I probably wouldn't. But I don't claim to. And I'm not on TV pretending to be something I am not.


yea you might not claim to know but then you seem to know what someone else doesn't or does know.


> The whole process goes a lot more effectively if the trainer actually has a working knowledge of canine behavior and body language, as well as a variety of training techniques.





> I'm curious as to why you are permitted to be his fan and agree with him while having absolutely no expertise and yet you are belittling me


what are you calling belittling..I don't see it and how do you know goldylover has absolutely no expertise?


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## Chritty

Goldylover2 said:


> You nailed it. These dogs already have serious issues because the owner didn't know how to correct it from the start. He tries to train the owners and rehabilitates the dogs. I see nothing wrong with his training methods. I've gotten frustrated with my golden pup months ago and was losing the battle. He wears a prong collar in the house with a nylon rope attached to it. And I also use an e-collar at times. This of course was all done after seeing a trainer. These tools work.



These tools work but if your dog has to wear them all the time then it has only provided a band aid solution. It has helped the person but does nothing for the dog.


----------



## Jersey's Mom

Test-ok said:


> yea you might not claim to know but then you seem to know what someone else doesn't or does know.


I am as entitled to share my opinion on this forum as anyone else. If you do not like my opinion, you are free to disagree. If that is not sufficient, you do not have to read my posts. I promise, it won't hurt my feelings. 



Test-ok said:


> what are you calling belittling.. I don't see it


From the post I responded to: " I guess it's easy judging from behind your computer screen."
Comments like that are meant to belittle. 



Test-ok said:


> and how do you know goldylover has absolutely no expertise?


Easy. I skimmed through some of goldylover's past posts. I noticed that he/she brought his/her dog to a trainer for aggression issues. If goldylover had expertise with aggressive dogs he/she would have taken care of it him/herself. How did goldylover know what level of expertise I do or don't have (or anyone else who dared to disagree with Cesar)? And why is it only apparently insulting in your view when I make that assumption but not when goldylover did? 

Julie and the boys


----------



## Test-ok

> And why is it only apparently insulting in your view when I make that assumption but not when goldylover did?


Where did I say anything was insulting? That's why I asked. The written word is hard to figure out how it was intended when you don't get to see facial expressions or the tone of voice. 
All I'm getting at is 


> yea you might not claim to know but then you seem to know what someone else doesn't or does know.


 How do you really know what he knows and you're correct..it's just you view.
and skimming through someones posts isn't going to tell you what they know..it'll only give you your opinion what you think they know..perhaps after taking her dog to a trainer for aggression issues she knows knows..thats knowledge..perhaps the trainer used the same technique. So maybe she/he does now.
and as far as I'm concerned this is also belittling


> I'm curious as to why you are permitted to be his fan and agree with him while having absolutely no expertise


Truthfully both of you could tone it down a bit. That's what messes up a good thread/conversation/debate.


----------



## Jersey's Mom

Test-ok said:


> Where did I say anything was insulting? That's why I asked. The written word is hard to figure out how it was intended when you don't get to see facial expressions or the tone of voice.
> All I'm getting at is
> How do you really know what he knows and you're correct..it's just you view.
> and skimming through someones posts isn't going to tell you what they know..it'll only give you your opinion what you think they know..perhaps after taking her dog to a trainer for aggression issues she knows knows..thats knowledge..perhaps the trainer used the same technique. So maybe she/he does now.
> and as far as I'm concerned this is also belittling
> 
> 
> Truthfully both of you could tone it down a bit. That's what messes up a good thread/conversation/debate.



You're right. You didn't use the word insulting. Insulting was the wrong word. Issue was the word I was looking for. I am still curious as to why motivations are being questioned but not the other poster for doing the exact same thing. 

How do I know what who knows? If "he" is Cesar, I know because he has been spreading what he knows on Tv, in books, in internet articles and all over the place for well over a decade now. If he knows more that he is not sharing with the world, that's on him. I can only judge a public persona by what they make available. One would think if an expert had a whole box of tools, he wouldn't just keep showing you his hammer over and over again. If "he" is goldylover, you're right, at the end of the day I don't know everything he knows. Nor does he know everything I know. Yet, again, you took no issue with his assumption about my ignorance (and others who disagree with Cesar). 

Being a few months into training a dog with aggression issues may give someone some experience and some knowledge. It does not, however, give them expertise. Since you are holding me very accountable for my word choices, I will point out that expertise is the word I actually used. Though, I am at a loss for why you seem to feel the need to police my posts so intently. That appears to be what is actually moving this thread further off topic.

Julie and the boys


----------



## goldlover68

*Test-ok and Goldylover2*

*Be advised that on this site we have a group of individuals (no names mentioned) that react negatively to anyone who shares an opinion different from what they believe!*

*Many of us have to deal with them, but you will learn quickly that they have some goofy 'come backs', ideas, or 'explanation' for everything they post!*

*They have no interest in sharing differing points of view or debating the issues. They only react negatively, get emotional, and they will complain to the website folks if they feel someone was to upsetting for them to handle.*

*I like your posts and agree with your thoughts in many ways....*

*Good Luck....*


----------



## CAROLINA MOM

Hey all, a reminder to please be courteous and respect the opinions and viewpoints of others when you make a post. 

I'm trying to head off any potential problems

If you aren't familiar with the Forum Rules that you agreed to follow when you Registered, please take a view minutes to review them here-

Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums - FAQ: Forum FAQ


----------



## Jersey's Mom

goldlover68 said:


> *Test-ok and Goldylover2*
> 
> *Be advised that on this site we have a group of individuals (no names mentioned) that react negatively to anyone who shares an opinion different from what they believe!*
> 
> *Many of us have to deal with them, but you will learn quickly that they have some goofy 'come backs', ideas, or 'explanation' for everything they post!*
> 
> *They have no interest in sharing differing points of view or debating the issues. They only react negatively, get emotional, and they will complain to the website folks if they feel someone was to upsetting for them to handle.*
> 
> *I like your posts and agree with your thoughts in many ways....*
> 
> *Good Luck....*



You do realize that you are just as guilty of what you are accusing me of doing, right? I didn't react negatively to anyone for sharing a different opinion. I reacted negatively for being singled out for sharing my opinion. And still, I wasn't really all that negative. I simply asked that person their reason for doing so. But here you are, yet again, jumping into a thread to berate other people for giving their opinions and responding to those who respond to them. Interestingly enough, yet again, you only see fault in those whose opinions you disagree with. Seems this is yet another pot and kettle moment. Shows consistency, I guess. 

I have had plenty of debates during my years on this forum and have a friendly relationship with a large number of people on this forum despite having drastically differing views on certain topics. Those people tend to respond to my posts by staying on topic and making counter points.... not by questioning my motives or suggesting I am out of line or mean for simply sharing my thoughts or experiences which differ from theirs. 

You are free to consider me goofy, emotional, and negative.... Though these do appear to be the types of "personal attacks" you claim to be opposed to rather than an exchange of ideas related to the original topic of this thread. 

As for reporting posts, in nearly 8 years on this forum I believe I have reported a total of 3 posts (outside of obvious spambot posts.... Which we had a rash of a few years back). I did so only in the most extreme of circumstances and I do not regret doing so. I and, I think, most others do not spend our time provoking people in order to report their posts.... we have better ways to spend our time. The moderators do read this forum and I would assume they pay a little extra attention to certain topics that are known to cause tempers to flare (such as this one). Not every incidence of discipline for the moderators is a direct result of a complaint from a forum member. Sometime they spot the violations without prompting. As a prime example I have not and will not report this post from you even though I am fairly certain it violates forum rules. So if you do wind up hearing from them (I don't expect you will, but who knows), I want you to know that it is not due to any direct action from me. 

Perhaps we can let people get back to discussing the subject at hand if all the lectures and accusations are finished now?

Julie and the boys


----------



## Carmel

I don't watch Cesar, but did watch the show many years ago once or twice. As far as shock collars, I would only use them in an instance where the dog's safety was at stake. I have never needed one, but my inlaws used one years ago for their young Lab's safety. He was a farm dog who also lived in the house, but his job was to be outside during the day with the animals, and he used to run. The neighbors used live traps at the time on their land, and so to teach him boundaries, my inlaws used a shock collar several times when he got to the edge of the farm property. It worked and within a month he knew not to leave the boundaries of their farm. I think the motive and the method should really be a deciding factor. Using one out of laziness and unwillingness to spend the time to train a dog, would be wrong. Some dogs too are very sensitive, and I could not see using one on say, a Sheltie, whereas a Lab can be thickskinned, and stubborn, so that would be different.


----------



## Goldylover2

goldlover68 said:


> *Test-ok and Goldylover2*
> 
> *Be advised that on this site we have a group of individuals (no names mentioned) that react negatively to anyone who shares an opinion different from what they believe!*
> 
> *Many of us have to deal with them, but you will learn quickly that they have some goofy 'come backs', ideas, or 'explanation' for everything they post!*
> 
> *They have no interest in sharing differing points of view or debating the issues. They only react negatively, get emotional, and they will complain to the website folks if they feel someone was to upsetting for them to handle.*
> 
> *I like your posts and agree with your thoughts in many ways....*
> 
> *Good Luck....*


I learned that within weeks of joining this forum. There seems to be a lot of know it alls on this site. And it you don't agree with them, "WATCH OUT".


----------



## Goldylover2

Let's be real for a brief second. Caesar Milan has helped hundreds if not thousands of owners and their dogs over the years. Some of these dogs already seen one or two trainers according to the owners. They were at their wits end. They write into the show for some help. Some of you might not agree with his training methods. That's fine, but he's done lots of good for the dog community IMO.


----------



## Coopsmom

Several professional dog related groups have expressed significant concern about Milan's training "methods". As I understand it, he is not a trained behaviorist but utilizes his own ideas about what works with dogs. I've never seen any scientific "evidence" about the success of his approach (made for TV is simply made for TV and is easily edited to tell the "story" that producers want to tell). If I had a dog with significant behavioral issues, I'd be looking for trained animal experts to assist me. 
Re: ECT for humans... there is great controversy about this topic in terms of ethics, effectiveness and appropriateness of its use especially with the elderly. That said, there is no comparison to e-collars for dogs and ECT for humans.


----------



## Rob's GRs

To all;

Let's not get into this side or that side disputes on the board and get nasty/rude about it. No one is going to ever agree with each other on all topics. Say what you have to say on the topic at hand but say it in a "respectful manner" towards each other. Any other type of heated disputes will only get this thread closed and/or members penalized.

Now back to the topic at hand..........


----------



## Chritty

You're never going to see CM's failures or long term effects on his show. 

This excerpt is from an article written by Ligia Morris, whilst biased because she claims to have had her dogs damaged by CM, this is her take on her experience of CM. The rest of the article can be found here http://www.thecrossovertrainer.com/one-persons-experience-with-the-dog-whisperer/

"Cesar Milan has a television show. I am a professional that is involved in the entertainment Industry – The show’s producers have a script to follow, and they must keep those sponsors. They heavily edit the footage to make long processes and mistakes look instant and to cover up some of the even harsher techniques he uses.

Also, other things one can’t even imagine, which I know that happened at a herding instructors facility, but are protected by confidentiality agreements and other waivers. Cesar is self-taught and he doesn’t even appear to understand why what he does works [or their long their term effects, for that matter]. There are professionals out there who really do understand the whys and hows of dog behavior and their consensus is that Cesar’s explanations are mostly nonsense. Bottom line is: Cesar is training for television entertainments, he uses difficult techniques with hocus-pocus explanations and that, in spite of his macho prowess, he frequently gets hurt!"


----------



## Charliethree

We need to keep in mind the potential 'side effects' of big splash, 'TV' dog training shows. Despite the disclaimers 'do not try this at home', there are going to be inevitably, plenty of dog owners who are seeking the seemingly 'magic fix' for their dogs, and will go out and buy that 'magic training tool' and 'try this at home'. There is an incredibly high risk of getting bit, of dogs ending up with more serious or severe behavior issues, or dogs being abused and or dumped in shelters because of those behavior issues created by misuse of 'training tools' and/or misunderstanding of the root cause of the 'issue' in the first place.


----------



## Nairb

I know zero about Milan, but I just wanted to express how happy I am to no longer have the urge to join these discussions.


----------



## lhowemt

Nairb said:


> I know zero about Milan, but I just wanted to express how happy I am to no longer have the urge to join these discussions.


But you just did. :


----------



## goldlover68

Jersey's Mom said:


> You do realize that you are just as guilty of what you are accusing me of doing, right?
> 
> Julie and the boys


I guess you realize, I did not accuse anyone, so you are admitting it? :doh:

Of course I am entitled to my opinions as are we all!


----------



## Jersey's Mom

goldlover68 said:


> Of course I am entitled to my opinions as are we all!





goldlover68 said:


> Test-ok and Goldylover2
> 
> 
> 
> Be advised that on this site we have a group of individuals (no names mentioned) that react negatively to anyone who shares an opinion different from what they believe!
> 
> 
> 
> Many of us have to deal with them, but you will learn quickly that they have some goofy 'come backs', ideas, or 'explanation' for everything they post!
> 
> 
> 
> They have no interest in sharing differing points of view or debating the issues. They only react negatively, get emotional, and they will complain to the website folks if they feel someone was to upsetting for them to handle.
> 
> 
> 
> I like your posts and agree with your thoughts in many ways....
> 
> 
> 
> Good Luck....


Of course you are. I said as much in my post. You are not, however, entitled to bad mouth members of this forum. Opting not to name names (especially while being more than a little suggestive about who you are talking about) does not make it okay for you to be so abjectly insulting to people. Hope it made you feel better to get all that off your chest. Now how about playing nice and letting this place get back to business as usual?

Julie and the boys


----------



## goldlover68

*Jersey's Mom* ...

Sorry, I cannot just let your comments go without questioning what the heck you are talking about. Again, disagreement does not imply any disrespect!

You used the terms 'bad mouth members' and 'abjectly insulting to people'

Where do you get that from?

By the way, if you try to pick 'specific quotes' be sure to keep them in the actual context they were in. 

The only time I get even get emotive, is when being attacked by others.....

Your thoughts ?


----------



## Rob's GRs

This is the Last Chance to have thread get back on track......

*Cesar Milan and ecollars*


----------



## Brave

I don't agree with his methods, but I do watch his show because for me it's a good way to run "what-ifs" through my head so I can mentally prepare if I am ever in a similar situation. 

Re: e-collars, I really think it's a "to each their own." As long as someone is knowledgeable or seeks assistance from those knowledgeable in using them, I don't think the dog is in any danger. I think that as a tool, people can use them in a way that makes the dog shut down. But so can most any training method. If you tell your dog "no" often enough with no direction or encouragement, chances are they will shut down. 

I've gotten criticism from other dog owners re:my choice to use a slip chain (aka choke chain) on my dog. Doesn't matter that 99% of training is with positive reinforcement. So I just gotta do what is best for me and my dog (as we all do). 

As for Cesar using eCollars on his show. I'd like to see them dedicate time to a proper "how to" instead of just saying "don't try this at home." But realistically there is only so much a TV show can do or be held responsible for. People will do what they want, regardless of warnings or what not.


----------



## Marcus

Play nice kiddies. 

I think everything that can be said has been said and now it's turned into a merry go round which isn't helping anyone. 

Time to shut this thread down.


----------



## Goldylover2

lhowemt said:


> He is in classic idiotic form here
> 
> https://youtu.be/9ihXq_WwiWM


test test test


----------



## Goldylover2

lhowemt said:


> He is in classic idiotic form here
> 
> https://youtu.be/9ihXq_WwiWM


test test test


----------



## Goldylover2

lhowemt said:


> He is in classic idiotic form here
> 
> https://youtu.be/9ihXq_WwiWM


A real idiot..Here is a video of him keeping the dog. The dog is playing and licking Cesar in the face. A real idiot you say. I'd say he saved this dog from being euthanized. [YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlN6NsbWAQg


----------



## SwimDog

Goldylover2 said:


> A real idiot..Here is a video of him keeping the dog. The dog is playing and licking Cesar in the face. A real idiot you say. I'd say he saved this dog from being euthanized. [YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlN6NsbWAQg


Most dogs who are resource guarders are friendly and happy when away from the resources that cause anxiety.

It's a bit of a logical fallacy to say that something is okay because it may have saved a dog from euthanasia - I'm sure there are things that all(most? many?) of us would say are unacceptable in the name of training. But also -we don't have a lot of data on efficacy of various training methods, efficiency, skill required, long term impacts, welfare/wellbeing, or impact on the human-animal bond. 

Back to the very original post, it does make me nervous, I know ecollars are popular products at chain pet stores, etc. I also know tht some of the cheaper models have some fairly serious efficacy problems (some of the petsafe brand ones have multi second delays between the button depressed and the stim). The general public doesn't need to get ideas about this.


----------



## Test-ok

Goldylover2 said:


> A real idiot..Here is a video of him keeping the dog. The dog is playing and licking Cesar in the face. A real idiot you say. I'd say he saved this dog from being euthanized. [YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlN6NsbWAQg


Let it go, it aint worth it. Really it aint. some people will think one way and others will think the other way..like Republicans and Democrats.


----------



## Goldylover2

SwimDog said:


> Most dogs who are resource guarders are friendly and happy when away from the resources that cause anxiety.
> 
> It's a bit of a logical fallacy to say that something is okay because it may have saved a dog from euthanasia - I'm sure there are things that all(most? many?) of us would say are unacceptable in the name of training. But also -we don't have a lot of data on efficacy of various training methods, efficiency, skill required, long term impacts, welfare/wellbeing, or impact on the human-animal bond.
> 
> Back to the very original post, it does make me nervous, I know ecollars are popular products at chain pet stores, etc. I also know tht some of the cheaper models have some fairly serious efficacy problems (some of the petsafe brand ones have multi second delays between the button depressed and the stim). The general public doesn't need to get ideas about this.


The original video shows Cesar, his sons and staff working with the dog for 8 weeks, maybe longer. There was improvement, but not enough for him to give the dog back to the family. They had a young child and the dog just couldn't be 100% trusted. So the Lab became permanent part of the pack at Cesar's facility.


----------



## Chritty

Goldylover2 said:


> The original video shows Cesar, his sons and staff working with the dog for 8 weeks, maybe longer. There was improvement, but not enough for him to give the dog back to the family. They had a young child and the dog just couldn't be 100% trusted. So the Lab became permanent part of the pack at Cesar's facility.



That makes it sound like his methods against RG aren't very effective


----------



## Goldylover2

Chritty said:


> That makes it sound like his methods against RG aren't very effective


Would you be comfortable giving a dog like that back to the owners that have a small child? I think Cesar and the owners of the dog made the right choice.


----------



## Chritty

Goldylover2 said:


> Would you be comfortable giving a dog like that back to the owners that have a small child? I think Cesar and the owners of the dog made the right choice.



I'd probably be looking for a new trainer if that was the case


----------



## Claudia M

SwimDog said:


> Most dogs who are resource guarders are friendly and happy when away from the resources that cause anxiety.
> 
> It's a bit of a logical fallacy to say that something is okay because it may have saved a dog from euthanasia - I'm sure there are things that all(most? many?) of us would say are unacceptable in the name of training. But also -we don't have a lot of data on efficacy of various training methods, efficiency, skill required, long term impacts, welfare/wellbeing, or impact on the human-animal bond.
> 
> Back to the very original post, it does make me nervous, I know ecollars are popular products at chain pet stores, etc. I also know tht some of the cheaper models have some fairly serious efficacy problems (some of the petsafe brand ones have multi second delays between the button depressed and the stim). *The general public doesn't need to get ideas about this*.


 The reason I posted the video of the lab after the incident was not to show that Cesar solved the resource guarding but to show that the dog was not horrified and traumatized by Cesar. If he was he would not have interacted with Cesar in the way he did in the video. And I surely doubt that they make drugs to dope the dog into showing such affection for Cesar for the sake of the camera. 

As far as the last statement, IMHO the general public should be informed - instead of being deemed too stupid to understand and thus banning the tool because of idiotic usage by a few. Is a video or a TV show the way to inform the public. I do not think so unless it is advised to seek professional help in learning how to use it.


----------



## Goldylover2

Chritty said:


> I'd probably be looking for a new trainer if that was the case


Maybe they already saw a different trainer. You don't know. Obviously you have something against Cesar. But the fact is, this dog is at Cesar's facility amongst other dogs and the RG has diminished. Hopefully the dog will LIVE a long healthy life.


----------



## Jersey's Mom

Goldylover2 said:


> Maybe they already saw a different trainer. You don't know. Obviously you have something against Cesar. But the fact is, this dog is at Cesar's facility amongst other dogs and the RG has diminished. Hopefully the dog will LIVE a long healthy life.



You state that the resource guarding is diminished. By whose account? And to what extent? I share your hope for this dog, but would add happy life to what you already listed. 

Julie and the boys


----------



## Goldylover2

Jersey's Mom said:


> You state that the resource guarding is diminished. By whose account? And to what extent? I share your hope for this dog, but would add happy life to what you already listed.
> 
> Julie and the boys


One of the videos shows that the RG has diminished. The owners came to say goodbye to the dog. Cesar even says he will help them find another dog that will suit their family.


----------



## Jersey's Mom

Goldylover2 said:


> One of the videos shows that the RG has diminished. The owners came to say goodbye to the dog. Cesar even says he will help them find another dog that will suit their family.



What video would that be? Did the video show that anyone other than Cesar could approach this dog while eating? Did it actually show relaxed behavior from the dog with food present or was he tense but with a stifled response? Was the dog exhibiting learned helplessness? Lack of an outburst doesn't necessarily mean that anything has improved or the RG has diminished. If this dog was not safe enough to release to a family (even one without children) and it was really the only option to keep this dog in such a highly structured and un-home-like (yes, I'm making up words), one could pretty safely assume that the behavior was not really all that improved. I would be interested to see this video you are referring to.... and to know how other experts in the field would interpret it. 

Julie and the boys


----------



## Ljilly28

First of all, I admire Cesar himself. He is charismatic and vulnerable at the same time, an embodiment of the America dream. I followed his suicide attempt story with sympathy and interest, and I think he has virtuoso good timing and a true love of dogs. He identifies with the misunderstood dog. 

What I don’t like is the verbal running narrative about what the dogs are thinking and feeling on the TV shows, as his power as a speaker is more convincing to the average pet owner than the dog’s body language. His narrative of what is happening is very different from what the dog’s body language says. For example, having the little girl Lauren grab Misty’s paws while ignoring her growling, lip licking and head turning is exactly how he himself got bitten in the “worst bite “ episode with the yellow lab. In the episode in which he takes the aggressive dog to the dog park, the role modeling is more than questionable. I can see well -meaning owners taking dogs with bite histories to the park off leash, trying to relax and endangering other people’s dogs.

Some of the owners do not understanding the very basic idea that dogs do what they practice, like allowing 100 lbs dogs to chase their horseback riding clients day in and day out for years before Cesar arrives. I am sure there ARE people like that, but 99 percent of our dog training clients are more put together than to allow a Rottie and a Bulldog to routinely chase their horses and customers, bite their kids, and fight. That leads me to ask myself how much is invented to make a good TV show. It is clear the whole “we had NO idea Cesar was coming “ trope is baloney. 

The e collar tool is there to give the paw to the pet dog training community who Cesar now sees as against him. He went through a palpable phase of trying to fit in more with reward-based training, and now he is going through a phase of rebelling against. The use of the e collar on the Cesar 911 show is lackluster in and of itself, and says more about Cesar trying to figure out how to be who he is. The show itself is half a parody of the earlier serious one, and half defiant that his practices have been raked over the coals so much. I probably forgot that 5 percent is a Subaru ad for their product placement. 

Most know I am always up for a good debate over the e collar and why I don’t use it- but I just can’t get interested in Cesar using it on his flagging tv career to muster a fight. 

For sure I would not let him touch one of my dogs or refer a client to him, and I rarely feel a sense of relief at the end of Cesar 911 like oh this is going to be fine now. However I do think he loves and knows dogs, and I am very interested in him as a public figure.


----------



## Ljilly28

As for human shock treatment, that does seem effective for changing the brain itself. My former student had her dad Shep Nuland give this TED talk about receiving the treatment: Sherwin Nuland: How electroshock therapy changed me | Talk Video | TED.com


----------



## AmberSunrise

... wrong thread ....


----------



## Harleysmum

I have been loath to come on here and say anything because I really lack experience but I cannot conceive of any situation where I would want to put an e-collar on my dog. I don't even raise my voice at my dog! I have known of rescue dogs who wet themselves at the sound of a microwave bell because of misuse of electronic fence collars etc. However I did see a show of Cesars where I really could understand the use of an e-collar. There was a mad dog that lived and worked where there were really huge dangerous pieces of equipment that got driven around. I think the dog had already lost one leg in an accident with these dangerous machines and Cesar came in and trained the dog with an e-collar and the dog learnt to leave the big trucks alone. To me that was a good result because that dog was not going to make old bones the way it was heading.


----------



## goldlover68

Reading over these posts seems many who are critical of ecollars apparently "NO NOTHING" ABOUT ECOLLARS! I see no field titles on their dogs or they openly say that do not use them.

If you have not worked with training dogs for field trails or hunt tests, successfully and/or have never worked with ecollars and/or trainers who train with ecollars.....why not let those with qualified experience share that experience with those who want to know.

I recognize that 'many' consider' themselves experts on training....but without field knowledge or at leaset being shown by a pro how to properly use ecollars....perhaps your advise may be misleading or just simply wrong....

That of course, is just my opinion...


----------



## Ljilly28

goldlover68 said:


> Reading over these posts seems many who are critical of ecollars apparently "NO NOTHING" ABOUT ECOLLARS! I see no field titles on their dogs or they openly say that do not use them.
> 
> If you have not worked with training dogs for field trails or hunt tests, successfully and/or have never worked with ecollars and/or trainers who train with ecollars.....why not let those with qualified experience share that experience with those who want to know.
> 
> I recognize that 'many' consider' themselves experts on training....but without field knowledge or at leaset being shown by a pro how to properly use ecollars....perhaps your advise may be misleading or just simply wrong....
> 
> That of course, is just my opinion...


I might be missing something, but I can't find much of a direct link to field training golden retrievers and rehabilitating a rottie with a bite history in East LA beyond being a good dog person. Do you think earning a SH is a rock solid credential for treating human aggression cases in a pitbull? Cesar Milan trains pet dogs who have been practicing human and dog aggression in pet settings for years, not field training dogs. Professional trainers and behaviorists who work with 100s of dogs each year of all breeds and mixes seem most qualified to reflect on the role of e collars in this kind of work. Do you think Cesar Milan is well qualified to train a FC?


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## tippykayak

And in 1910, we might have read a post like this:



> Reading over these posts seems many who are critical of whipping dogs apparently "NO NOTHING" ABOUT ! I see no field titles on their dogs or they openly say that do not use them.
> 
> If you have not worked with training dogs for field trails or hunt tests, successfully and/or have never worked with whipping dogs and/or trainers who train with a whip.....why not let those with qualified experience share that experience with those who want to know.
> 
> I recognize that 'many' consider' themselves experts on training....but without field knowledge or at leaset being shown by a pro how to properly whip a dog....perhaps your advise may be misleading or just simply wrong....
> 
> That of course, is just my opinion...


Do I need to learn to whip my dog properly with a field pro in order to say that perhaps there are better ways or to talk about the downsides of using a whip to help with resource guarding? Of course not. I don't find the "you have to do it a lot in order to have the authority to critique it" argument holds much water.

To be clear, I'm not equating e-collars to whipping a dog in terms of how harsh they are or how appropriate they are. I'm not even saying e-collars are old-fashioned. I'm just using the comparison to illustrate the point that one can critique a technique without becoming an expert in it first.

I could also turn it around and point out that there are folks on this board who have helped train _hundreds_ of dogs, even thousands. Should we only listen to them, as opposed to the people who have only trained five or ten (or none)?

And this thread isn't about field training anyway. It's about the use of the e-collar on a TV show. Unless Cesar 911 has taken a big swing into field work? I don't watch, so I wouldn't know.


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## goldlover68

tippykayak said:


> And in 1910, we might have read a post like this:
> 
> Do I need to learn to XXXXXXXXwith a field pro in order to say that perhaps there are better ways or to talk about the downsides of using IGNORANCE to help with resource guarding? Of course not. I don't find (ONE OPTION) the "you have to do it a lot in order to have the authority to critique it" argument holds much water.
> 
> 
> 
> *Forgive them Lord, for they know nothing, of what they speak! :doh:*


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## goldlover68

Ljilly28 said:


> I might be missing something, YEP, YOU ARE!:doh:


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## Ljilly28

I do think Cesar Milan has lots of courage, and in examples like the grey Pitbull Titan does more than most dog professionals could muster. I liked seeing him tell the owners they were not right for the dog, and being more real to the situation. I believe he love pitbulls as much as we love goldens. However, I feel sad about the TV shows, both for the way they open drastically unscience-based ideas up to Joe Public that can justify abuse of dogs in unskillful hands, and also in the way they have exploited Cesar Milan himself while simultaneously promoting him.


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## tippykayak

goldlover68 said:


> Forgive them Lord, for they know nothing, of what they speak! :doh:


Don't you think it's a wee bit insensitive A) to compare yourself to Jesus, and B) to use the head smack emoticon when you're paraphrasing from that particular biblical moment?


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## Carmel

I think the problem with today's society is really misplaced sympathy, especially with pit bull breeds. Just as a Golden is bred with a strong retrieve drive, so is a bully dog usually bred to fight and guard. They bite. Period. They bite to kill when they do bite and they don't let go. This is what makes them seem so "cool" to young, inexperienced persons that have no idea how to train a dog or read a dog's actions. Personally, I wish the breed would just die out. I love all animals and all I see with pit bulls that our shelters are full of them, and everyone keeps saying they are so "sweet" and get a bad rap. They are actually doing exactly what they were bred to do! It's not their fault, and I would help any dog including a pit, but certainly would never support the breed. Do Golden's bite? Not if they are responsibly bred. But yes, unfortunately there are again people out there that just breed for money, and have no care of breed standard and temperament. Society needs to get back to understanding that dogs were bred for different purposes, and yes, all dogs are "good" dogs, but they have a purpose. It's humans that distort the truth and try to fit all dogs into one category.


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## Jersey's Mom

goldlover68 said:


> Reading over these posts seems many who are critical of ecollars apparently "NO NOTHING" ABOUT ECOLLARS! I see no field titles on their dogs or they openly say that do not use them.
> 
> If you have not worked with training dogs for field trails or hunt tests, successfully and/or have never worked with ecollars and/or trainers who train with ecollars.....why not let those with qualified experience share that experience with those who want to know.
> 
> I recognize that 'many' consider' themselves experts on training....but without field knowledge or at leaset being shown by a pro how to properly use ecollars....perhaps your advise may be misleading or just simply wrong....
> 
> That of course, is just my opinion...



The topic of this thread was never about whether an e collar is an appropriate tool for training dogs for hunt tests or field trials. It was about a certain celebrity "dog trainer" promoting their use on his show. Why would someone need "field knowledge" to share an opinion about a trainer who is not training dogs for the field?

Julie and the boys


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## GoldenCamper

Waste of my time to bother giving a articulate reply to some of the hottest dog topics combined in one title. 

Surprised to see old time members get sucked into it.

TV show celebrity and shock collars for a title OP? You're better than that.


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## goldlover68

tippykayak said:


> Don't you think it's a wee bit insensitive A) to compare yourself to Jesus, and B) to use the head smack emoticon when you're paraphrasing from that particular biblical moment?


LOL.....another goofy comment that is!:


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## laprincessa

I know nothing about training a dog for hunting. I have no desire to learn about training a dog for hunting. I'm not judging those who do - it's just not my interest. 

That said - training a pet dog seems to me to be a whole different thing than training a dog to hunt. While an e-collar may be quite appropriate for training a hunting dog, is it necessary for a family pet? 

I haven't watched Cesar in a long time - since I saw a girl at the park kicking her puppy in the side because "that's what Cesar does." No, Cesar didn't, he gave them a nudge with his foot in the episodes I saw. However, promoting the use of a tool that can, in untrained, inexperienced hands, cause damage to a dog, is irresponsible - and I believe that was the original point of this thread.


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## laprincessa

goldlover68 said:


> LOL.....another goofy comment that is!:


It's Easter week, and while you may not celebrate that holiday (I don't), show some respect to those who do, please.


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## goldlover68

laprincessa said:


> It's Easter week, and while you may not celebrate that holiday (I don't), show some respect to those who do, please.


If you READ what I posted it was not disrespectful in anyway. I did not compare myself to the Lord, where she got that????

I asked that the Lord forgive! For us Christians it is not unusual for us to ask forgiveness for others, even when it is meant to be a bit humorous. And, I can paraphrase any bible scripture I choose, I wish to heck more people really had a clue about Christianity and the bible....! But that was not my intent....

Lighten Up~!

You guys are ganging up again.....


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## Rob's GRs

Well this thread is overdue to be closed. We left it open in hopes of civil discussions.


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