# Hips - Exellent : Good : Fair



## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

This would be more a question for Breeders. When you do a breeding what ratio do you look for in hips? Of course as good as we can make it but nothing is perfect. If you were to go 4 generations which is 30 dogs or 31 plus the subject dog. So percentages and ratios work best for my brain LOL. So if you have X amount of good, X amounts of fairs and X amounts of exellents your 3 numbers divided by 30 for your results. What would be the lowest amount you would want to breed on? What would you consider a reasonable ratio for the grades in 4 generations? Thanks in advance.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Reminds me of a question I asked not too long ago. I'd like to read the answers. I was surprised when looking at a pedigree that two fairs were bred, but I don't have the entire history of the lines.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

I'm thinking that since excellent hips are not very common, the percentage would be very low for that grade, no matter what you do. You should at least strive for one-hundred percent passing grades. 

Unfortunately, I don't think it is as clear cut as just calculating a ratio. A dog with good or excellent hips could very well have a sibling that is mild or moderate, and you may never know about it. You have to use all of the information you have at your disposal, and use your best judgment.

As I put my flame proof suit on, I think that genetics are just too complicated for any mortal to even pretend to understand.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

I agree with Vern.

You really have to learn as much as possible about each dog (and its' siblings) in the pedigree. 

More "Good's" and "Excellent's" are better than fewer.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

vrocco1 said:


> I'm thinking that since excellent hips are not very common, the percentage would be very low for that grade, no matter what you do. You should at least strive for one-hundred percent passing grades.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't think it is as clear cut as just calculating a ratio. A dog with good or excellent hips could very well have a sibling that is mild or moderate, and you may never know about it. You have to use all of the information you have at your disposal, and use your best judgment.
> 
> As I put my flame proof suit on, I think that genetics are just too complicated for any mortal to even pretend to understand.


I agree with Vern and since _*every*_ pup is not usually exrayed nor evaluated are we as breeders getting a TRUE percentage? you can breed a strong pedigree and still have a dysplastic thrown at you...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I completely agree with Vern and SC.
You cannot simply look at the individual dogs, nor even the dogs in a straight pedigree. To really have any of it mean something, you need to look at a vertical pedigree. I hate the phrase "It's all a crapshoot", because I believe that if armed with the knowledge of genetic health histories within a pedigree, informed decisions can be made which definately increase your chances of producing healthy dogs, or (depending on if you look at the proverbial glass being half empty or half full) greatly decrease the chances of producing affected dogs.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

But why put to fairs together? I know fair is passing and a lot more goes into it, but wouldn't it be better to put a fair with a good or excellant no matter what? Maybe not.


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

Just a question here...is hip dysplasia always due to genetics? I know when I got Phoebe, the breeder wanting me to wait to spay Phoebe, feed regular dog food as opposed to puppy, all to encourage slow growth. I may have misunderstood, but I thought she was telling me that many pet dogs are larger than the breeder's dogs due to early spays/neuters, faster growth causing longer bones, causing hip and elbow problems. So, do some dogs get hip dysplasia because of what we do with them, ex, exercise, early spay, food we feed, or are some just more prone to HD because they are genetically inclined to be dysplastic. Obviously, some puppies have problems right from the start so that would be genetic, but dogs that get this later is life, is it always genetic?

If I were to get Phoebe's hips x-rayed and she came up with excellent or good, would HD be something I'd never have to worry about? And if Phoebe's x-rays showed fair or moderate, would I be wise to stop her from running with DH? 

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

It really is a crap shoot if you think about it carefully. There are more ways to make seven or eleven at dice, and that is why it is usually a smart bet. Breeding two fairs would be like betting on a two. There is only one combination of the dice that would win. Examining the pedigree, and using the results carefully is like betting on a seven. With seven, you don't ALWAYS win, but more often you do.

Oh and BTW... I believe that there is more then genetics involved, but with the complexity of the subject, I guess we'll never know for sure.


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

Kimm said:


> But why put to fairs together? I know fair is passing and a lot more goes into it, but wouldn't it be better to put a fair with a good or excellant no matter what? Maybe not.


Why not? They are both passing grades. Who is to say that the Fair reading wouldn't receive a Good rating if resubmitted. I have known breeders who received a Fair, waited 4 months and resubmitted and received a Good. I have seen two Fairs produce nothing but Good and Excellent hips. I have seen hips rated Excellent produce dysplastic dogs. I have seen dogs who failed their hips and were bred anyway who have never produced dysplaysia. Like everyone else has stated you need to look at a vertical pedigree for a more accurate picture.

I know I have said this before.....my foundation bitch Keira was a borderline at 8 months, a Good at 18 months and a fair at 24 months. What's up with that??? Jesse was rated Good at 1 year, borderline at 24 months and just 4 months later after I resubmitted he came back Good. All films had good positioning. Do I always trust OFA...Not on your life.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

DelmarvaGold said:


> Why not?


Good question! Now I will sit back and read the answers from those more in the know than I. 

Actually, the dogs in question that were listed as fair and bred together are dogs of someone who is new to breeding. I'm sure they have a mentor who is guiding them well.


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## Rachel's Mom (Feb 26, 2007)

> I know I have said this before.....my foundation bitch Keira was a borderline at 8 months, a Good at 18 months and a fair at 24 months. What's up with that??? Jesse was rated Good at 1 year, borderline at 24 months and just 4 months later after I resubmitted he came back Good. All films had good positioning. Do I always trust OFA...Not on your life.


Sue...I just wanted to mention, I met keira at the meetup this week and she is absolutely gorgeous!!


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

So, considering Ron runs with Phoebe, is it wise for me to have Phoebe's hips x-rayed just to make sure she has good hips, or does it not even matter? Should hips be x-rayed more than once, and if you get two different results, how do you know which x-ray is correct and which one is not?

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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