# Positive reinforcement vs Alpha



## NancyJLA (Jul 15, 2017)

Hi! I'm a new owner of a 9-week Golden Retriever pup, Lola, and am trying to make the best decision regarding training. There are 3 really popular trainers in our area - 1 does positive reinforcement, 1 does Alpha and the 3rd one I'm still researching. All 3 trainers are highly regarded so I initially planned to go with the Alpha trainer but am now rethinking that. My pup is exceptionally snugly and sweet, so I wonder if the PR approach would better suit her (and most Goldens)?

I'm a new dog owner and fairly unknowledgeable at this point so all input is welcome. I tried searching the forum on this subject but wasn't finding any specific info.

Thanks in advance!

Nancy & Lola


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I'm no expert but I am doing the positive reinforcement with Rukie and I am amazed at how fast he is learning, plus he's such a sweetie I would hate to pull the Alpha routine on him. We had a guest who tried grabbing his mouth and saying no bite and he sort of went after her. He didn't hurt her but he knew he didn't deserve rough treatment.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

So-called "alpha" training has been widely criticized and can actually be harmful. I would never use that kind of approach on a puppy. If you have access to a good trainer who uses positive methods, I would definitely recommend going that route.


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## NancyJLA (Jul 15, 2017)

Thank you both, my gut tells me that the PR method would feel most comfortable and "right" to me, but I wanted to get input from those more knowledgeable. I have 3 kids and could never do the "cry it out" method with them, so I know it would be difficult to do any kind of training with a pup that feels uncomfortable to me.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

NancyJLA said:


> Hi! I'm a new owner of a 9-week Golden Retriever pup, Lola, and am trying to make the best decision regarding training. There are 3 really popular trainers in our area - 1 does positive reinforcement, 1 does Alpha and the 3rd one I'm still researching. All 3 trainers are highly regarded so I initially planned to go with the Alpha trainer but am now rethinking that. My pup is exceptionally snugly and sweet, so I wonder if the PR approach would better suit her (and most Goldens)?
> 
> I'm a new dog owner and fairly unknowledgeable at this point so all input is welcome. I tried searching the forum on this subject but wasn't finding any specific info.
> 
> ...


Just what is an "Alpha" trainer? 

Be careful with the "Positive Only" folks. They can quickly lead you down a path to disaster if they aren't really REALLY good at teaching you correct timing.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

I started with a trainer with my puppy who was mostly positive reinforcement, but included corrections which involved loud noises, pressure on leash to get them into down stay, etc. We trained with a choke collar and while I didn't feel comfortable with it I did it. My boy is pretty well behaved. When he was 1.5 years old I rescued a fearful golden who was the same age. I took him to the same trainer. By the 3rd class, he had completely shut down and had zero trust in me. I started over using positive reinforcement training only (clicker + treats). It's been a slower journey, but he trust me to look out for him. I learned that every dog is different and you have to train the dog in front of you (to quote another member of this forum from a different thread). You will find folks who support both methods. Trust your instinct on what is going to work for you. Golden Retrievers are smart dogs and want to please. They just need to understand what you want them to do.

I personally, will only use positive reinforcement going forward. It's what I'm comfortable with, especially with my fearful guy. But my other guy has really blossomed as well using this approach.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

My goldens have been very successful in meeting the goals I set for them, as well as being well mannered therapy dogs and fun to hike, cuddle, and live with through positive only training( clicker). There is no need to punish a golden if you have great timing and communication skills.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Most well bred Goldens will respond well to positive reinforcement training, and don't need the overpowering, control-based, punishment-based training of the Cesar Milan folks. Goldens love to learn, love to please, and love food. Makes it really easy to do PR training with them. I agree, you DO need a good trainer who can train YOU to be successful at it.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> My goldens have been very successful in meeting the goals I set for them, as well as being well mannered therapy dogs and fun to hike, cuddle, and live with through positive only training( clicker). *There is no need to punish a golden if you have great timing and communication skills.*


There in lies the problem. This approach works well for you because you have years of experience and you learned great timing and communication skills along the way. On the other hand most first time owners do not possess the experience you have, nor great timing or the communication skills needed to successfully implement the approach as you can.


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## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

Swampcollie said:


> There in lies the problem. This approach works well for you because you have years of experience and you learned great timing and communication skills along the way. On the other hand most first time owners do not possess the experience you have, nor great timing or the communication skills needed to successfully implement the approach as you can.


What would you consider punishment, though? We use positive reinforcement, but we also stay firm, direct, and consistent. This works well for us(and we're surely not experts!)- but when I think of punishing I think of yelling, rubbing noses, alpha rolls, spanking, etc. So, I am not sure what would be "punishment" vs having rules, lol.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> There in lies the problem. This approach works well for you because you have years of experience and you learned great timing and communication skills along the way. On the other hand most first time owners do not possess the experience you have, nor great timing or the communication skills needed to successfully implement the approach as you can.


I understand the point you're making, and there is a degree of truth to it. However, we have a a training center and see 100s of dogs & pups a 6 week session, and people learn timing and communications skills quickly. Even first time owners enrolled in STAR Puppy do extremely well. I do think if the goal is MH or UDX it is unlikely from reports here; although we just had a client win Utility A all positively trained that is the exception. The winner of Utility B trains here too and has a MH *** golden, but isn't all postive( mostly lol) If your goal is therapy dog, Rally advanced Excellent, CD, AM CH- positive training is ideal for a rewarding warm relationship of partnership with your golden.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Swampcollie said:


> There in lies the problem. This approach works well for you because you have years of experience and you learned great timing and communication skills along the way. On the other hand most first time owners do not possess the experience you have, nor great timing or the communication skills needed to successfully implement the approach as you can.




Would this not be the same issue with folks who don't time corrections at the right moment?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

jennretz said:


> Would this not be the same issue with folks who don't time corrections at the right moment?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Absolutely! However, if I miss my timing and inadvertently reward an unwanted behavior, the dog has gotten an extra treat, and he may try that behavior again, but _unless _I continue to reward the 'unwanted' behavior the chances of it recurring will decrease. If I inadvertently punish the dog for the 'right' behavior, because my timing is off, the likelihood of the 'right' behavior re-occurring is decreased, the dog will be reluctant to offer that behavior again, to avoid the possibility of being punished for it. 

Dogs (all animals) repeat behaviors that are rewarding to them, and avoid repeating behaviors that have negative consequences for them.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Define alpha.
A good positive trainer has absolutely taken on the alpha role ( not roll, lol). They mete out rewards, praise, and determine what is and is not acceptable behavior. It is their strong leadership that makes the dog happy and secure.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

NancyJLA said:


> Hi! I'm a new owner of a 9-week Golden Retriever pup, Lola, and am trying to make the best decision regarding training. There are 3 really popular trainers in our area - 1 does positive reinforcement, 1 does Alpha and the 3rd one I'm still researching. All 3 trainers are highly regarded so I initially planned to go with the Alpha trainer but am now rethinking that. My pup is exceptionally snugly and sweet, so I wonder if the PR approach would better suit her (and most Goldens)?


Nancy,

Without knowing who the trainers are that you are referring to and actually seeing how they train - it would be impossible to answer your question.

A lot of people are going to pipe in because they themselves actually lack real experience in training at clubs or places where there are a variety of trainers available and a lot of fuzzy space. They themselves get hooked on ideologies and deal only in absolutes. In some ways as well, it boxes them in completely because before they've even seen how a trainer works with dogs, they've already decided that they are kind to the dogs or not. 

I'll give you a couple examples... 0

1. Positive only trainer who now owns a super powered breed - and also a super soft breed. Belgian Malinois. 

- She herself is a very good handler/trainer. She's done a LOT with the dogs and you can tell she has a good bond with her dogs. 

2. Self-identified 90% Positive only Trainer who trains 2 different breeds. They are very specific, so I'm not going to identify those breeds other than saying they are non-obedience in general. She picks up a lot of odds ends from various people, goes to any seminar (audits a lot, has walked out of seminars when they've not been that great) but particularly Connie Cleveland and another person who is a pretty big name but my brain is not recalling at the mom. 

3. Primarily Positive Reinforcement trainer who is a golden retriever trainer. She does NOT box herself off in a corner by only following one person. She picks up odds and ends from Connie Cleveland, Bridget Carlsen, Denise Fenzi, and I've her sharing things from people like Susan Garrett. She and other trainers who she hooks up with have trained personally under people that are unknown to the realm of "popular pet trainers" and even in the big name OTCH trainers, but who have a lot to offer.



^^^^ 

#2 - I would honestly hedge my bets and tell people to go take classes from her. Have thick skin though and be ready to say "no" if they are uncomfortable with something she recommends. She is a really good teacher, and generally fun to classes from. Types of things I disagree with her on, for example... Use of grabbing the dog's collar to get a lagger to move. Nothing abusive. Dogs who are trained in this fashion may lag even worse because they anticipate you reaching back and grabbing their collar. 

#3 - Is a top ticket for EVERYONE who wants to get going in training. She's a delight to train with. People who train with her usually have an assortment of tools which are pretty telltale (plastic jars with high value treats, squirrel tails, toys with treats inside, etc).... she does use corrections though. She and I have had a chat about corrections. Her view is that the dogs need to know when they are wrong. And corrections are based on the dog. Soft dogs, don't need much of a correction. Harder dogs do sometimes need something more. She teaches the trainers how to read their own dogs and trains them how to handle them. 

#1 - I actually am putting last because I've trained in the same classes as her. And while I do think she has good training skills, it would drive me crazy taking lessons from her. Because she can be all over the place with the dogs (but positive only). Some of that too is she's kinda rude to people. But also, she's so caught up in playing with her dogs sometimes that she's letting them do all kinds of stuff which are not appropriate for obedience ring. I've been in positions where we are supposed to tell each other what our dogs are doing while putting each other through exercises, and I never know where to start with her or even if it matters to her. <= To me, I think that would make her really confusing to take classes from as a student. 

She's not the only one like that, I might add. There is another trainer who is big time well known. And I'm not going to mention her breed because people will know who she is. She used to be heavy handed and into very old style corrections and training. Along the way, she switched over to positive only. And she herself is very successful with her dogs and she does have good people training with her sometimes. But I've seen her training people at fun matches and OMG, I would not deal with that. There is a lot of pressure on the people and that can make it very stressful in training. And that may go down the leash to the dog which is as negative as if the owner were correcting the dog. 

So of the above, I gave you two examples of people who are balanced trainers and two who are positive only. 

I've been talking with my sister who is going to be getting back into obedience training with her collie pup... and of the above trainers, I'm recommending she take privates from the #3 trainer and see how far she can go. 

This is based on knowing the different trainers.

The people who you may be taking classes from - it's impossible to judge them simply based on advertisement of their toolboxes or methods. 

To be honest, if somebody is advertising themselves as positive only... and another person is advertising themselves as an "alpha dog trainer"... I would go look for a third person.

Alpha dog stuff is a training ideology that has its roots in what was a new style of training back in the 90's or so. People were reminded that their dogs were dogs and not little people. They were taught how to read dogs from the perspective of how dogs/wolves naturally interact with each other. The alpha stuff is based on how dogs sort each other out in their pack. 

This got twisted around by a lot of people who were overly macho in their relationships with their dogs. And or perhaps, these people were used to training really aggressive/dominant dogs. 

So they would recommend tactics and handling methods which were over the top for most family pet dogs. And anal and neurotic sometimes - case in point, people being told that dogs are not allowed on furniture because to the dogs that's allowing them to get on the alpha dog's turf. Really stupid stupid stuff. And a lot of it went further and forgot the whole base point of understanding dog behaviors from the viewpoint of how dogs interact with each other. 

Dogs share their beds with each other. They puppy pile for comfort and warmth. They lean on each other for comfort and also in affection. And a dog jumping up on a person is merely trying to get their faces closer to ours - out of affection and need. 

Anyway. 

Where you go to train - I'd suggest asking around for references. 

People who are really good at doing classes which are fun and informative... and successful, will usually get a lot of references.

And make sure those references are based on how they do classes and not simply based on "I went there, so of course it was good!" references. LOL. 

If you were in my area - I'd probably start out by telling you that there are 3 group class locations at 2 local training clubs and one private facility. And there are more places to train the further out you go. In a 1 hour driving distance, we have at least 7 good quality places for people to train. I would recommend any of those places, with the reminder to people that they are going there to train their dogs. 

There's a lot more training locations very locally - which to be honest are sub par or very expensive for what you are getting. And I probably would not recommend them. 

I would discuss this with anyone asking where to train in our area.

You probably will find similar people in your area who can help point you in the right direction.

Dog training should be fun. You shouldn't feel pressured into one training style or another. The best dog trainers out there are going to simply train you how to work with your dog. Majority dog trainers out there focus on positive reinforcement. You're not going to walk into very many classes and have your guts twisted up in seeing dogs getting yanked around, pinched, shook, etc.

Ideally... in 10 years, you want to be in the position I was on this past Sunday. 

I walked into the ring at a fun match with my boy who is almost 10. 

He was the embodiment of warm, fuzzy, happy, joy... at getting to go out there with me. He did everything with extra vim and energy, right to the end where he sat there with his body wiggling back and forth because of his tail wagging so much. 

This dog started obedience in a novice class taught by somebody who, for example, recommends pinching the dogs as a correction for lagging. This was a trainer who I greatly admired then and still do... but I told her at the time that I am not pinching my dog and not putting a prong on him.  I kept taking classes with her for 2+ years and really think we were richer for it. She taught really good classes. Heeling was one of the things that she taught extremely well. <= I'm not sure if all people would mesh taking classes from her. But she is one of those that I count as tops to take classes from. Especially with a young competition dog. She's very respectful when you tell her you don't want to do X or Y. But the fact she teaches things like that doesn't wipe out all the good stuff she teaches. 

One caution is there's a lot of people out there who do not have anything outstanding to offer as teachers in these classes. They are positive only, but there's really nothing else. And their prime way of competing with people who do have a lot to offer - is telling all kinds of horror stories about what those others do in training while promoting themselves.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

You are training a pet right? Not looking for an OTCH? 

Then go to a +R trainer that focuses on a dog that is easy to live with. Tell them your goals, but be realistic (i.e., know your dog won't be a "good dog" until they are in the 2-4 year old range) and expect that the trainer will be realistic, too (no magic bullets, sorry!). Talk to someone who does a lot of management (for example, if you want your dog to stay out of the trash, put the trash up or get a new dog-proof can). I do +R with my dogs and it works very well, even better than other methods for me and my dogs (both as pets and competition dogs). But it's not easier. It's actually easier just to yell and get your dog to sort of shut down and banish him to the yard when he is being annoying. 

The best trainers train the dog in front of them, but kindly and fairly, and they know that a dog that is shut down is not being obedient, it's simply afraid to do anything else and finds safety in doing nothing.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

Ljilly28 said:


> I understand the point you're making, and there is a degree of truth to it. However, we have a a training center and see 100s of dogs & pups a 6 week session, and people learn timing and communications skills quickly. Even first time owners enrolled in STAR Puppy do extremely well. I do think if the goal is MH or UDX it is unlikely from reports here; although we just had a client win Utility A all positively trained that is the exception. The winner of Utility B trains here too and has a MH *** golden, but isn't all postive( mostly lol) If your goal is therapy dog, Rally advanced Excellent, CD, AM CH- positive training is ideal for a rewarding warm relationship of partnership with your golden.


I know several Utility B people and OTCH people with dogs of all breeds that are trained +R. My trainer is on her fifth +R Utility dog and going for an OTCH on her four year old. She has never trained any other way as she is strictly a Bob Bailey trained trainer. Of course, she continues to learn as +R methods become more main stream. I think that if +R methods weren't so new, there would be many more +R Utility dogs, but most people with Utility level dogs, especially Utility B, have been training a long time.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

FosterGolden said:


> You are training a pet right? Not looking for an OTCH?


One last note. 

Have heard people say they are just going to train at some random place near their house that just does puppy classes. Because they don't want to show their dogs or anything.

Rule of thumb. If a training club wants to keep you around for 2-3 years and get you hooked on dog training, they put extra effort into training you to train your own dog + build that bond with your dog.

Majority of trainers - INCLUDING competition obedience trainers - are not looking for an OTCH. 

I'll wager as well - most people out there don't actually know what an OTCH is and what all goes into it. 

At the base - it's having dogs who are the best family pets.

The person I trained my Jacks under... the one who I mentioned uses some corrections I won't do? She brings her granddaughter with to most events. Her granddaughter gets to play in obedience with one of her finished dogs. You see this dog who is a police dog breed (so very big and very high tuned) doting on this little girl leading him around a busy room without any trouble... that is a goal that anyone should have with a family dog.

There's enough people out there making obedience miserable for others. Dog training for fun or for sport should have the same goals at the start regardless of how far people go. A lot of the higher level competition people out there got started as pet owners who got exposed to a big cool world that they wanted to get into. And a lot more got going because a really good trainer pulled them aside and told them that their dog is fantastic and will go far. Knowing you have a good dog and it's been recognized by somebody who knows there stuff - that alone is something which encourages the humblest of pet owners to really get going in a sport. 

Our dogs for the most part enjoy having purposes in their lives. Many of us with multiple dogs who we train have dogs go NUTS when waiting their turn. Everyone has that experience. The dogs WANT to work. It directs a lot of the drive the dogs are born with into doing stuff.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

FosterGolden said:


> I know several Utility B people and OTCH people with dogs of all breeds that are trained +R. My trainer is on her fifth +R Utility dog and going for an OTCH on her four year old. She has never trained any other way as she is strictly a Bob Bailey trained trainer. Of course, she continues to learn as +R methods become more main stream. I think that if +R methods weren't so new, there would be many more +R Utility dogs, but most people with Utility level dogs, especially Utility B, have been training a long time.


Here's the issue. 0

There are a LOT of people out there who are primarily positive handling trainers. 

There are a LOT of people who are influenced by Denise Fenzi and take her online classes.

There are a LOT of trainers who use very few corrections in their training.

And a lot of these people if they aren't OTCH types, are titling their dogs very far and high up each and every time. They are very successful.

But the nice thing about all of these people is they are not "absolute" in their views and methods. Nor are they antagonistic towards any other people and how they choose to train. And these people have competed in obedience in the last 15-20 years. You can look up their current dogs in scoring websites and see the results they've gotten - because they actively compete with their dogs. And when they are not actively competing, then they are very visible members at their training clubs. 

^^^ These people are more +R (or is it R+ LOL) than anything else, but because they consider themselves balanced trainers, they have ignorant people out there bashing them. This is a problem and does show an uglier side to dog training. :surprise:


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

Megora said:


> Here's the issue. 0
> 
> There are a LOT of people out there who are primarily positive handling trainers.
> 
> ...


What good trainer is absolute in their views and methods? I will say that FDSA is not a tool in a toolbox, it's a methodology, and overall they are open and willing to try different things. And, sometimes their methods _are_ punishing (P-), but not to the point of decreasing drive and motivation or harming the relationship between dog and handler. Balanced and other types of trainers do bash +R trainers. Last I heard, it was +R trainers who are responsible for all of the dogs being euthanized in shelters all across the country! I don't disagree that it's ugly, but it's ugly on both sides. Anyway, I was responding to someone who said: 

I understand the point you're making, and there is a degree of truth to it. However, we have a a training center and see 100s of dogs & pups a 6 week session, and people learn timing and communications skills quickly. Even first time owners enrolled in STAR Puppy do extremely well. *I do think if the goal is MH or UDX it is unlikely from reports here; although we just had a client win Utility A all positively trained that is the exception.* The winner of Utility B trains here too and has a MH *** golden, but isn't all postive( mostly lol) If your goal is therapy dog, Rally advanced Excellent, CD, AM CH- positive training is ideal for a rewarding warm relationship of partnership with your golden.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

Megora said:


> One last note.
> 
> Have heard people say they are just going to train at some random place near their house that just does puppy classes. Because they don't want to show their dogs or anything.
> 
> ...


Point being, if this person wants a pet, there are certain things they worry about and certain things they don't. When she asks the dog to sit, does it really need to have a tucked sit? And, does the down need to be foldback? If she waits to work with a competition trainer, at least in my part of the world, the dog will be about five years old before it gets in! By all means, don't choose a trainer based on mileage, but some of the responses to this person's note were about MH, UD, OTCH, etc. dogs and I'm not sure it was of much use to the OP when looking for a trainer and/or a methodology in teaching her dog to be a well-behaved member of her family. Frankly, I have a softer dog and in order to get him to a place where he was an animated performance dog, I had to decrease rules and now he is the worst behaved pet I ever had. But, his ring performance has increased by about 500%. He jumps on me! He bites me! He bounces all over the place! Of course, if he were a wild and crazy field dog, things would be very different. Point being, training competition dogs and pet dogs is different. I do think that competition pet puppy classes are really good though, but again, good luck with that waiting list!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

FosterGolden said:


> What good trainer is absolute in their views and methods?


They are extreme on their views of what they do and what they think other people do. And I have seen some rather startling statements from people, including Denise herself on doing things. This includes making statements along the lines that if a correction must be used in order to train a dog for a sport, then it is not worth playing that sport. I don't know if Denise is that extreme herself? But as stuff gets whittled down to some followers - you get that impression from them, if not bald statements along that line. 

It's literally people who refuse to compete in obedience because their dogs at some point will not do as well if you take the treats, praise, and guidance away. And it's easier to just use that excuse vs getting over the hump.

^ I'm saying this candidly here - I'm working on getting over the handling/guidance issues before we get going into Open with Bertie. That's why I have scratches and welts all over my arms from replacing food rewards with play rewards every day this week. I'm very determined to get into Open by Oct and we need to get into shape! 

As I said, I know a LOT of people who follow her and take her classes. Taking her classes, btw is NOT a sign you are positive only - I know of people who use ecollars in obedience training who attend Denise Fenzi's seminars or take some of her online classes. 




> Last I heard, it was +R trainers who are responsible for all of the dogs being euthanized in shelters all across the country!


I have seen this and in the context of comments people have made as to what they've observed and had to step in to save dogs from ending up in shelters... there is an element of truth.

When people receive poor training advice and do not commit to training and bonding with their dogs... there is a danger of those dogs failing in big ways. Snapping and resource guarding are huge issues which crop up when the dogs are poorly trained and the owners do not receive adequate guidance particularly from their breeders first and then wherever they train. Puppy classes should focus on teaching a variety of life skills, including "leave it" and "give". These are not just tricks. They literally are life and death value skills to train a young pup - especially by the time the dogs get up in age. 

This is borderline bad with our breed... but it can be very serious in other breeds who are known for mauling their owners. 

I don't have a problem with the online classes which some people offer. As I said, I have friends who do these classes because there is something of value in them. 

But people with puppies - I think need to go to puppy classes and keep going to obedience classes through age 2 or 3. It helps the people get through the toughest points of raising a dog. And going in person to class is an extra level of accountability to really make sure people are training their dogs at least once a week.

My feeling - you could train through 12 months in puppy classes through CGC level obedience. But beyond that having something to train for keeps things fun and interesting.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

I think this thread has done an excellent job of illustrating the differences in training methods to the OP. Hopefully, the OP will be able to evaluate some different classes and find one that suits her and her dog so that they are having fun and are engaged with each other, since that seemed to be the common goal, regardless of methodology. I'm glad that most everyone seemed to agree that there's more than one way to get from A to B, and that a little common sense (and good timing) in applying positive reinforcement and/or corrections based on your dog's personality will go far in helping a handler achieve their end goal.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

FosterGolden said:


> If she waits to work with a competition trainer, at least in my part of the world, the dog will be about five years old before it gets in!


This is pretty depressing to read for me.... :frown2: 

And a big reason to support dog training clubs and independent dog trainers around where you live every chance you get. You want to make sure that by the time the old people retire, there's going to be people to step in and continue the good work they do. 

Puppy classes fill up super fast. That's actually something I'm nudging my sister on because our collie pup is coming home on Sept 1 and if she isn't signed up in time, she'll end up having to wait until Oct and because she isn't a member of any of the local clubs, she can't just do drop in training like I did with Bertie. 

Competition level classes do fill up - but thankfully there's enough trainers and locations around so people can get into those classes. And those competition level classes are a natural progression from the lower level classes...

IE - Puppy -> Boot Camp -> CGC -> Novice -> Open -> Utility

IF you are training with a private instructor... the levels are collapsed quite a bit, with you being able to teach your puppy all the basics necessary for everything from Novice through Utility. And progressively you teach everything as you go, adding height to jumps as the pup gets older... the instructor bumping up criticism and expectations as you improve. 

Even if you never compete or never title beyond CD, you are guaranteed a very good dog who you can take anywhere.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

NancyJLA said:


> Hi! I'm a new owner of a 9-week Golden Retriever pup, Lola, and am trying to make the best decision regarding training. There are 3 really popular trainers in our area - 1 does positive reinforcement, 1 does Alpha and the 3rd one I'm still researching. All 3 trainers are highly regarded so I initially planned to go with the Alpha trainer but am now rethinking that. My pup is exceptionally snugly and sweet, so I wonder if the PR approach would better suit her (and most Goldens)?
> 
> I'm a new dog owner and fairly unknowledgeable at this point so all input is welcome. I tried searching the forum on this subject but wasn't finding any specific info.
> 
> ...



This article may be of interest to you:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...eness-rewards-and-punishments-in-dog-training

A couple of others:
https://www.dogstardaily.com/files/BEFORE You Get Your Puppy.pdf


https://www.dogstardaily.com/files/downloads/AFTER_You_Get_Your_Puppy.pdf


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

Megora said:


> They are extreme on their views of what they do and what they think other people do. And I have seen some rather startling statements from people, including Denise herself on doing things. This includes making statements along the lines that if a correction must be used in order to train a dog for a sport, then it is not worth playing that sport. I don't know if Denise is that extreme herself? But as stuff gets whittled down to some followers - you get that impression from them, if not bald statements along that line.
> 
> It's literally people who refuse to compete in obedience because their dogs at some point will not do as well if you take the treats, praise, and guidance away. And it's easier to just use that excuse vs getting over the hump.
> 
> ...


I personally don't disagree with the statement that if a person feels they must correct, and I'm talking in a rather punishing way that is hard on _that particular dog_ or a way that makes a person uncomfortable, why play in the sport? And you know what? It's perfectly OK that people feel that way. I work a lot and have a stressful job and the last thing I want to do is drive all over creation and spend my hard earned money being mad at my dog who is just doing his best. 

I don't think Denise is extreme at all. I think she has a healthy approach to dog sports and a do what works for you and your dog approach. But, that is just my opinion based on my experience. If you have questions or heard things and want clarification, feel free to reach out and ask her about it. She is very approachable. And, I don't think it's a big secret that not all FDSA students are +R. I don't agree with a lot of people and their methods but I do think people are just doing their best. I am comfortable with what I do with my dog and in the end, that's all I can do. I can't worry about what everyone else is doing or not doing. 

Getting over the reducing rewards hump is hard and it can be stressful. I took Bridging the Gap at Gold for two semesters in a row to learn how to do this and it was harder for me than it was for the dog! A lot of people also find joy in training but not trialing. Or they have dogs that do not do well in a trial atmosphere so they stick to training and learning. I have a friend with a Malanois who doesn't even like to leave the house let alone trial, and so she let her off the hook, but still trains and learns for her next dog. I don't think there is anything wrong with training and not competing if that is what someone wants to do or where their comfort level lies. Certainly no harm done. 

I highly disagree that +R training is not what makes dogs end up in shelters. When I did rescue, it was all about the alpha roll and Monks of New Skeet. We had so many defensive dogs who were alpha-rolled, stared down and scruff shaken, who bit and had to be euthanized. Bad training is bad training, regardless of method. I don't know about where you live, but breed rescues are shipping meat and street dogs to the US from other countries to satisfy demand and probably 90% of dogs in shelters around here are pit bulls and the other 10% are puppy mill rescues. I would say that previous owners in all of these cases are not exactly the clicker training type.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I'm not going to choose sides ... you have to do what works for the dog you are working with. 

I'm an old timer and began training back in the late 1950's so very familiar with the Kohler method. It was effective and easy to teach people how to do it. Connie Cleveland and Pat Nolan continue to use this concept although they have softened it up a bit. 

Many years ago I adopted a Dalmatian mix rescue and even though I used the same method I realized he was bored with the repetition needed to use this method and while compliant he had lost his "flair" for competition. When I purchased a yr. old golden that was extremely smart, quick to learn and had a dynamic personality with a that flair for showing. It was time to think outside the box with her training.

We did all our training with the clicker method and not even on leash. It was the most frustrating, strenuous training for me to grasp. With clicker or positive reinforcement training you have to reverse your mind set and involve the dog as part of the process. 

Then I attended a Bridget Carlsen seminar and there was no looking back. She made my newly acquired, totally untrained dog look like a seasoned veteran. She showed me how much fun the dog was having. But she also showed me how much quicker they learned. Teaching the dog to WANT to work for you.. new concept for me.

So with this girl I was shocked at how quickly she learned to do long sits and downs reliably. No more leash, no corrections, just simple, well timed rewards. With this girl I have learned that once you have the exercise accomplished and well learned she needed small reminders (on heel) that now she is required to do the exercise, it's not an option. (We also had to remove the "look at me" when she walked due to physical limitations) But because of the initial clicker training the reminder corrections are miner... and we are training for competition not just walking on a leash. Positioning is important.

So while I totally get where SwampCollie is coming from I believe you have to totally commit to the new training and see the success to completely convert. 

Don't get me wrong, if a 100 lb rotti makes a lunge at me for making a correction I will not hesitate to put his face in the dirt vs. getting bit  But can honestly say most dogs can learn with a buckle collar, especially a golden that wants to please. 

Of course field training is a completely different situation and would follow whatever direction the instructors taught.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

puddles everywhere said:


> I'm not going to choose sides ... you have to do what works for the dog you are working with.


Agreed. I don't use a leash much when I train, either, but I will when it is necessary, or when we are not training in a secured area. I've had dogs that needed a physical correction or physical guidance, and current one does on occasion, but, typically, I don't need more than a verbal correction. I'd add that getting the leash out of the picture for my son really helped him with timing and managing his body language/position. He was giving all sorts of confusing signals when he was trying to deal with a leash on top of an untrained puppy. We do not use a clicker, either, though I have used one on past dogs.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

FosterGolden said:


> I work a lot and have a stressful job and the last thing I want to do is drive all over creation and spend my hard earned money being mad at my dog who is just doing his best.


If that is what you think corrections involve, then I would agree. Don't train your dog to do X if it involves being mad at your dog. If people find themselves getting angry at their dogs... they probably need to drop the leash and go jump in a lake or something. :laugh:


> And, I don't think it's a big secret that not all FDSA students are +R.


My point is that people who go one route and one route only assume that the other people are taking an opposing route and only that route. But for real a lot of people prefer to do positive reinforcement and have rewards, praise, fun, etc... Balanced training does not mean equal correction and equal rewards - like 1/2 and 1/2. Balanced training could literally mean 99% positive reinforcement and very little correction in the truest sense. And it could also mean somebody not really using corrections, but using more hands on methods for shaping exercises (playing the hot and cold game with the dogs).

With corrections - You are not punishing the dogs. A well-timed correction brings the dogs back to what they need to be doing before they've completely blown what they are supposed to be doing. 

For example, chain-rattling is a correction for a dog whose head is starting to go down or who is starting to check out while heeling. 

The jingle of the choke chain is all you need to bring the dog's focus right back to you. This is a correction. And it is generally made a "positive correction" because most of the time early on when you use this correction a lot, the return to focus is heavily rewarded. 

Where people go wrong is when they do not attend classes with a good trainer and pick up odds and bits from either the classes that they do attend (parsing for what sticks in their heads) or from books. The books are the worst.  My local library has books from the 70's and prior for training dogs. And some of the corrections and handling recommended in these books is really bad! 




> A lot of people also find joy in training but not trialing. Or they have dogs that do not do well in a trial atmosphere so they stick to training and learning. I have a friend with a Malanois who doesn't even like to leave the house let alone trial, and so she let her off the hook, but still trains and learns for her next dog. I don't think there is anything wrong with training and not competing if that is what someone wants to do or where their comfort level lies. Certainly no harm done.


Oh I don't disagree. 

The joke is that a lot of us prefer not to do trials with our dogs. Because BAD THINGS HAPPEN AT TRIALS and you can't go out there with a paper bag on your head. 

I've been around long enough at the various clubs so everyone knows me and my dogs. So when they have a bad day at a show... it's REALLY embarrassing. :laugh:

I just paid for an entry for Jacks next month at a show site that he should be able to handle perfectly. It's more or less in a pole barn that's usually open on both ends. And otherwise, we are going to be outside. Unless it's raining (gosh forbid), he should be able to handle that.

Bigger shows that are inside - he can't handle. The crowd noise and "din" makes him nervous and overwhelms him. So I would _not _enter him at the National, for example. Unless they move obedience outside. :| 

So you do figure out how to get into trials with the dog you have.... 

Otherwise, trialing is not for you if you have egos that you need to pamper.


Also.... be wary of people who are backyard obedience champions. They stay out of trials because their dogs are not proofed well enough to actually work in a trial situation.... 



> I highly disagree that +R training is not what makes dogs end up in shelters.


I think it's "no training" to be honest. If behavior was a reason for the dogs ending up in shelters as a surrender. Also dogs going stray goes back to adequate training and bonding with the dog. 

Otherwise, I agree... I believe there are a variety of reasons why dogs end up in shelters.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am happy to choose sides, but I don't mind who agrees or disagrees. I love positive training and clicker training, and the feeling it creates between dog and human. I enjoy working with zoo trainers, and improving my technique year after year. It absolutely can be done and is often done to train a golden from puppyhood to be a wonderful dog without no reward markers or punishments, and I love this way of working with dogs. I recommend ti to the OP, amidst the sea of other differing, contrasting, and agreeing recommendations. Try to find a trainer certified CPDT-KA if you are looking for a nice STAR Puppy class, and would like a well behaved pet or therapy dog as your goal.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I don't think goldens should be so sensitive that a fair no-reward marker could sour your relationship. That wouldn't make a good working dog temperament, which goldens are. Doesn't mean they don't exist -- know your dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I don't think goldens should be so sensitive that a fair no-reward marker could sour your relationship.


I read this too fast and immediately in the context of something that happened on my way home from the grocery store... as opposed to withholding rewards when your dog is wrong.... 

I bring my guys with when I am just doing quick dit-dotting in and out at the store. And usually grab either fish sticks for them as a reward or Rachel Ray's soup bones. 

Today it was soup bones. 

There's 3 in a package. 

Both guys get a soup bone each as I get in the car, and I split the third in half for them when they finish up.

Jacks finished first and got his half. 

Bertie 2 minutes later stuck his head up into the front looking for his half. Which he got.

Jacks looked like he gave himself whiplash with him looking back at Bertie and giving me an AGGRIEVED look because in his brain Bertie had gotten more treats than him. LOL. 

On the other hand - it does tell you how dogs think. And why having positive verbal/sound markers (yes word or a clicker) for the very moment the dog did something good is so important, esp if you don't have rewards immediately on hand to give them. 

In the case of my dogs... Jacks believes that if I'm training and Bertie gets treats, he deserves treats too. If he hears Bertie crunching on anything, he comes running because he expects his fair share too. I don't think they overly think too much about "why" they get rewarded sometimes. And to be honest, sometimes I don't think of the treats or occasions as rewards necessary? More like making sure my dogs LOVE going rides in the car with me. They know that if I go in the store and leave them in the car, I will always give them a special treat when I get back to the car. Or riding in the car with me sometimes means I "might" go somewhere with "magic windows". Or the ultimate non-food reward of going swimming or running in fields somewhere. I think things like that keep dogs from getting too stressed in the car? And my dogs DO spend a lot time running errands and going to odds and ends with me. 

Flipside, I do think having a simple negative marker or correction helps the dogs learn faster and have less frustration while being trained. Being told "wrong" or "uh-uh" or "no" when they are cold is just as important as having a "yes" or "good" word marker when they are hot or almost right... at least when shaping stuff...?


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

We progressed to the jackpot stage but I reward effort not the exercise. I don't work for free and certainly don't think they should either. But this is just my way of training... I have no problem making a correction (after it's clear they understand the task) but immediately follow the correction with a reward for trying. No effort no reward.

The goal in training is learning to be a team with the dog you are training. The dog needs to be as engaged in the training as you are and you should both be enjoying the process. If what you are doing isn't successful then it's up to you to change your approach. There is no one way to accomplish teaching your dog. The hard part is admitting when what you are doing isn't working. What works for one dog may not work for another.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

Megora said:


> Flipside, I do think having a simple negative marker or correction helps the dogs learn faster and have less frustration while being trained. Being told "wrong" or "uh-uh" or "no" when they are cold is just as important as having a "yes" or "good" word marker when they are hot or almost right... at least when shaping stuff...?


Depends on the dog. I reward for effort. I never use no reward markers in shaping because shaping is learning. His shaping has come a LONG way (I started teaching him how to open the fridge and get my a beer and after about five sessions, he is super close...all shaping) and he is super active in figuring things out now. He's become amazing at problem solving. I used to use no reward marker, "uh-uh" or similar, and had a shut down dog or at least very tentative and careful with everything he did. Stopped using them and now I have a dog that never gives up and does everything with lots of energy. Now he's confident and not stressing about being wrong. I actually NEVER tell him he's wrong. It's helped him a lot to understand that he needs to figure it out, that he can't rely on me to help him and if he is wrong, it's fine. Obviously, I don't put him in a tough situation if I don't feel like he is ready. This has made a difference in field work, go outs and articles, especially. I don't have a dog that pops in the field or in go outs and I don't have a dog that stands in the article pile asking for help. This dog learns much faster now, too, because he's unconcerned with being wrong. He stays in the game and never gives up. He's also quite smart and honest. He is an amazing worker and will go all day now. So, if he is wrong, it's not for lack of effort. He shouldn't be punished for not knowing or not understanding and IMHO, effort should be encouraged.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I don't think goldens should be so sensitive that a fair no-reward marker could sour your relationship. That wouldn't make a good working dog temperament, which goldens are. Doesn't mean they don't exist -- know your dog.


I agree. It is more the human's training chops to be more creative, consistent, communicative, and skilled with backchaining and chaining that is the fun. . . Dogs can learn many ways through many methods , but the question partly addresses a human's ethical beliefs, a human's skill-set, and how the human imagines the ideal relationship between an animal and a person. It is easier to train using no reward markers than not, but it is more of an accomplishment to train a behavior to a dog without ( to me) them. I added "to me" by editing, bc to thine own dog be true, to thine own training be true. If someone believes deeply in Caesar Milan training and meets the goals they set for themselves, that exists in a different world from mine, and that person won't care what I say or think anyway. Hopefully people will research and deeply consider the kind of relationship they want with this other species, and they will explore the ethics of training as well as the efficacy.


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## zoeythewonderdog (Mar 18, 2017)

*no reward markers*



FosterGolden said:


> I never use no reward markers in shaping because shaping is learning.... I used to use no reward marker, "uh-uh" or similar, and had a shut down dog or at least very tentative and careful with everything he did. Stopped using them and now I have a dog that never gives up and does everything with lots of energy.


I also do not use no-reward markers, for the same reason as FosterGolden said. During the initial phases of shaping, the criteria should be set so that the click/treats are coming fast and furious - like 15-20 per minute(as in, a cookie every 3-4 seconds!). With that high a rate of C/T, all you have to do is break eye contact and turn slightly away from the dog to communicate "no". They understand, and keep trying. That's during shaping. That said, though, I think it's absolutely fine to say "no" if the dog is digging a hole in the lawn, picking up a disgusting kleenex on a walk, or... .

@ FosterGolden - you mentioned positive methods for field training. I am coming up pretty empty handed looking for a positive field trainer. I see you are on the west coast, (I'm in Pennsylvania), but if there are any resources you could recommend, I'd appreciate it. I should probably start another thread for this question.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

zoeythewonderdog said:


> @ FosterGolden - you mentioned positive methods for field training. I am coming up pretty empty handed looking for a positive field trainer. I see you are on the west coast, (I'm in Pennsylvania), but if there are any resources you could recommend, I'd appreciate it. I should probably start another thread for this question.


So, long story...

I put a solid obedience foundation on my dog _before_ he ever saw a bumper let alone a bird (stay, come, sit, retrieve, leash walking, hold was going well). He was 11 months. Not because it was in my plan, but because I had been training obedience and didn't know field work and I certainly did not think my conformation dog would be interested in it. I just had no clue. I took him to a WC put on by my breed club. Started far back due to gunfire and by 30 minutes in he was trying to drag me to the downed bird. He didn't care about gunfire. 

Started out with a traditional trainer who I met at the WC. Nice gal but she relied on FF/e-collar and didn't teach foundations. I was really on the fence about the FF/e-collar method and she kept telling me to do it and I kept putting it off. Honestly, I was just having a good time and not taking it very seriously, so that was another reason I put off FF/e-collar work. Never planned to take him to tests. During this time I was just getting to know my new +R obedience trainer who had a Toller and did field work, and she recommended I train with the guy she had worked with and that I ditch any thoughts of FF or e-collar work. 

So, the guy I switched to was totally on board with +R even though he is a traditional trainer. He was good at problem solving and reading dogs, which is important with +R training, as you probably know. It helped us come up with creative solutions. Because my dog's drive is not a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10, we trained on live flyers versus bumpers to keep him highly motivated. That was expensive, by the way, but worth it. I would go to his place about twice a month (it was a four-hour round trip and he was often busy with board and train) and we'd work on technical marks, distance, confidence building, etc. Meanwhile, I started taking a gun dog class with Cassia Turcotte at FDSA which helped me with my handling. 

The trainer who I used with live flyers, starting last summer, is working on Pointer trials now, no time really for retrievers, especially past JH and he's in another state half the year guiding, so it no longer works. So, I have taken more of Cassia's classes and I went to her seminar in California last month. She is in Connecticut and might have local seminars. I know she gives lessons. Might be a bit far from you but she is so great to work with and is really a lot of fun. Other than this, we've been on a bit of a field work hiatus over the past year though, for the most part. 

Finding a good trainer is tough. I am open about my methods without bashing theirs and what I have found is that the trainers are initially skeptical and their expectations of us are very low, and then when they see my dog work they get on board and are actually a little excited about it. But, finding someone who will work with you and doesn't subscribe to just one way of doing things, someone who can think outside of the box instead of jumping to e-collars or FF, can be tough to locate but is essential with this type of training. It really helps that Wyatt has a natural retrieve, he is a serious and motivated worker and he tries really hard. I have friends doing +R field training with dogs who need a trained retrieve (I've heard great things about Donna Hill's Shaping a Retrieve on FDSA), who are goofy or immature and do a lot of self-rewarding (not the dog's fault), and they are having a heck of a time with field work and their trainers are annoyed with them and every lesson they suggest an e-collar. I get where the trainer is coming from and besides temperament I am sure there is some bad training as these people are new to field work and new to +R and it's not always easy. I am also having much more luck with trainers talking to me since my dog got his JH and went four for four in getting it. 

Good luck...it can be a difficult journey!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

FosterGolden said:


> Obviously, I don't put him in a tough situation if I don't feel like he is ready. This has made a difference in field work, go outs and articles, especially. I don't have a dog that pops in the field or in go outs and I don't have a dog that stands in the article pile asking for help. This dog learns much faster now, too, because he's unconcerned with being wrong. He stays in the game and never gives up. He's also quite smart and honest. He is an amazing worker and will go all day now. So, if he is wrong, it's not for lack of effort. He shouldn't be punished for not knowing or not understanding and IMHO, effort should be encouraged.


Actually, in the examples you mention above you are doing EXACTLY what is recommended by all my teachers. And these are situations where people have to SHUT UP and not correct their dogs or cheerlead their dogs. 

Correcting a dog with the articles - can lead to a dog who gets burned out trying to be right and waiting for the "hot or cold" reminders from his handler. They have to work through the pile themselves.

If a dog is having a problem with articles - the way to fix is not by correction, but by reducing the number of articles out there and adding more scent to the article so he can be "right". Then you gradually add the articles again.

Articles are funny because they SHOULD not have any problems with them at all. They have good noses and also a lot of dogs (or mine anyway) do the taste test to see which article is warm or not. <= My Jacks would go through the pile and put his mouth on each and every article until he found the right one. Bertie is more of a noser, but I've seen him taste articles as well as fall back.

A good working dog who has been trained right with the articles will keep working that pile around and around until he is very sure he is right and brings the article. 

With goldens - they WANT to be right and retrieve NOW. So you have the problem of dogs going out there and snatching the first article. Or they hunt a little, can't find the article, stress out and start picking up anything. 

Corrections with go-outs - if my dog doesn't do it the first time, I pull him back and repeat it. If I feel he was having a problem, I will cut the ring and make it easier for him to be "right". Having to start all over and repeat something with no praise or comment is a correction.


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## NancyJLA (Jul 15, 2017)

OP here. Firstly, thank you for all of the detailed and lengthy input. I appreciate you all taking the time to post in response to my question. I've been reading posts as they're added, but unfortunately there's a fair amount I've not been able to understand as a new owner. A previous poster asked if I intend to raise my golden as a pet and the answer is yes, she's solely going to be a fun-lovin' pet to myself, my husband and 3 kids. 

I met with the positive reinforcement trainer on Sat and liked her a lot. She gave me a lot of great ideas about toys to give the pup, schedules, nap times, etc. Today I met with the other trainer, I don't know what the correct terminology is to refer to his method but it involves a leash with firm, swift, relatively minor yanks on the leash to correct the pup. My pup was wearing the buckle collar I bought her so I don't know if this trainer would replace that with a chain or some other type of collar when doing the actual training (today was more of a meet & greet).

I'm more conflicted than ever on how to proceed. I know I need to hire a good trainer, but am not sure about much more. I got the Golden pup so we'd have a happy, goofy, loving bundle of fur as a member of our family. On the one hand, I feel like the +R training could take quite a long time to get right, and given how hectic our lives are I'd really like to have the pup be a good citizen sooner rather than later. I know the other trainer could accomplish that more quickly, but at what cost? Would my pup lose the very qualities that caused us to get the Golden as a pet in the first place? I can't seem to make heads or tails of this.

In any event, thank you again for all of the input and guidance.

Nancy


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Here's how you can cut to the chase.

Do not hire a trainer.

Take classes and learn how to BE the trainer. 

It will take 7-18 months for your pup to grow up and settle down. Regardless of which direction you go, there are NO SHORTCUTS. 

Training takes months to years. And it never stops because this is an intelligent breed. They don't learn anything for keeps. Stuff needs to be reinforced from time to time. And these dogs don't come trained.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Dogs, children, animals, adults all learn the same way, they repeat behaviors that are rewarding to them, and avoid repeating behaviors that have negative consequences for them. This is science, this is true in all animal behavior. 

When we reward (reinforce) a behavior we want a dog (or child) to repeat, it increases the chances that the behavior will be repeated, if the behavior is repeated and rewarded enough, it soon becomes 'habit'. If we focus on teaching the dog what 'to do', and reward them for doing it, we will have a dog who 'wants to' learn, a dog who wants to 'try' (and keep trying) to get it 'right' over and over again. It takes time, no different than teaching a child, they will make mistakes, absolutely, but they are willing and eager to try again because they 'want to' get it right.


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