# True Golden Confession Related to "Puppy Costs"



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Nobody and I mean nobody can predict health problems in goldens, nor can they guarantee they will be free of health regardless of where they came from or when they were spayed or neutered. This is why I get so upset when I read some of these threads on this forum. If it makes you feel any better I was *not* naive when I purchased Wyatt from a loving byb. I was however naive to think by purchasing my Cody from a reputable breeder that I was doing the right thing and would have a healthy puppy because that was the right thing to do. I even at the time thought and told my best friend that she made a huge mistake when she bought her dog from a byb. I was wrong. She still has her Kobi who has no health issues. Cody died 2 years ago at age 10 from cancer and had a life *full *of health problems.

And please breeders I respect everything you do and would never sway anyone away from you. I still recommend people to Cody's breeder because it was not her fault. 

Enjoy and love your beautiful puppy and she will give so much more in return.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

You are not alone. Although most recommend doing research and getting pups from a reputable breeder, not everyone on this forum has done that. There are plenty, like you, who have gotten their pups from a BYB. This doesn't necessarily mean that your dog will be sick or die young any more than getting a dog from a reputable breeder will guarantee that your dog will never be sick or die young. 
I am sure that you have read all of the reasons for purchasing from a reputable breeder so there is no need to go into that.
I hope that you are one of the lucky ones and you will have many healthy years ahead with your new baby. Where you got your dog should in no way affect how you are treated here. You are still welcome to ask questions and post pictures. In fact, I think there is a rule that you HAVE to post pictures of all new puppies. Can't wait to see photos.


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

Hannah's Mommy said:


> I've read the entire thread "Puppy Cost," and don't know how guilty I should feel or how beat up I'll get for it, but I'm going to open up honestly here in a new post.
> 
> Not knowing anything other than that we wanted a Golden Retriever puppy strictly to love and raise to become part of our family, but not for show, etc., I found Hannah rather naively through a local listing on Craigslist. She was born to a family not far from us who had both the mother and father. Dad is AKC-registered, the mom is not, but both are beautiful.
> 
> ...


I certainly won't say a word against someone who obviously loves their dog the way you do. I respect all responsible breeders and think that they do a wonderful service and will keep the pure bred line going. My hats off to you. I have always chosen the adoption route. Our original Golden is now almost 15 years old with a life of little health issues that have added up to lots of money, but a long life so far. Our Aussie passed in Feb. at 15 years old and she was adopted. Neither dog do I have any information on prior to their coming to us. Tayla is our second Golden, adopted from a co-worker of my husband who decided that a puppy wasn't for him. She is the first dog I have any records on and a birth date. I know she was from a back yard breeder because she comes with CKC paperwork (Continental Kennel Club) papers, but I can find no information on line about the breeder in TN. Tayla has bad hips found through an X-ray at 7 months. She walks funny so we had her checked out. She also has behavioral issues that we are working through. Will she get cancer and die young, I pray not, but pure breeds, mixed breeds are all prone to the same things in life that we are prone to. I would suggest that you feed them a high quality food, give them fruits and vegies that are cancer fighters and limit their vaccines to the least you can do. In our area it's a 3 year protocol. Enjoy them while you have them, because I'll say even at 15 years it's way too short.


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## Hannah's Mommy (Mar 13, 2012)

Thanks you, Wyatt's Mommy and goldhaven. 

Wyatt's Mommy, I'm so sorry about your sweet Cody. I appreciate your input so much (I've read several of your other posts) as you truly represent both sides from personal experience. "No guarantees" is something I'm definitely learning here. HUGS

goldhaven, I have a few great Hannah pics posted on the "Born in November 2011" thread. She's 8.5 months now and beautiful. A perfect blend of sweetness and puppy crazy.


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## Hannah's Mommy (Mar 13, 2012)

Thank you, Tayla's Mom... Another wonderful perspective from both sides! Almost 15... that's awesome!

I feed Hannah the Adult Chicken food from Three Dog Bakery. It rates very well on the dogfoodanalysis.com site. I switched her early from Science Diet - the food we'd always used in the past - when I saw how badly SD ranks now. She also loves her sweet potato jerky and other goodies that make her "work" a little. Everything is "Made in the USA" only... I'm a stickler about that.

I need to start adding fresh veggies... Any suggestions on those that are best tolerated by little tummies?


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

As others have said even reputable breeders have yet to discover how to prevent cancer...that is something we are all working towards. Other issues like hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, eye problems and heart problems are less likely in a puppy who's parents and pedigree is clear of any problems. But by no means does it clear each puppy completely. Even in careful breedings problems arise that are not expected. Of course everyone here will wish you well with you puppy. I think the bad reaction on the other thread was because people were defending poor breeding practices. You don't seem to be defending your back yard breeder, it doesn't make you a bad person for not knowing any better. I think if you learn about all of the health clearances good breeders do and the care they put into each litter, and then you out right defend a BYB, that might get a reaction :doh: 
But good luck, don't feel un welcome because of the debate on the other thread, everyone makes mistakes, that is how we learn, isn't that the goal of this forum anyways.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Hannah's Mommy said:


> Thank you, Tayla's Mom... Another wonderful perspective from both sides! Almost 15... that's awesome!
> 
> I feed Hannah the Adult Chicken food from Three Dog Bakery. It rates very well on the dogfoodanalysis.com site. I switched her early from Science Diet - the food we'd always used in the past - when I saw how badly SD ranks now. She also loves her sweet potato jerky and other goodies that make her "work" a little. Everything is "Made in the USA" only... I'm a stickler about that.
> 
> I need to start adding fresh veggies... Any suggestions on those that are best tolerated by little tummies?


Wyatt loves and tolerates fresh green beans.

Oh and on a side note I would have honestly recommended Wyatt's breeder to my friends if she was still breeding.


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

Hannah's Mommy said:


> Thank you, Tayla's Mom... Another wonderful perspective from both sides! Almost 15... that's awesome!
> 
> I feed Hannah the Adult Chicken food from Three Dog Bakery. It rates very well on the dogfoodanalysis.com site. I switched her early from Science Diet - the food we'd always used in the past - when I saw how badly SD ranks now. She also loves her sweet potato jerky and other goodies that make her "work" a little. Everything is "Made in the USA" only... I'm a stickler about that.
> 
> I need to start adding fresh veggies... Any suggestions on those that are best tolerated by little tummies?


Every dog is different, but when we found out Cheyenne had cancer I did lots of research into anticancer fruits and veggies. Broccoli, cauliflower, kale and spinach are great. I steamed and put into a food processor. Fruits are blueberries and raspberries and cranberries among some of the best. I feed my girls Earthborn for kibble and Grandma Lucy’s as a freeze dried “raw” alternative. I have also learned that tripe is especially good for dogs if they will eat it and you can stand the smell. Jesse our old girl loves it and Tayla our 9 month old won’t even sniff it. Switch it around and do the best you can. That’s all any of us can do.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Tayla's Mom said:


> Every dog is different, but when we found out Cheyenne had cancer I did lots of research into anticancer fruits and veggies. Broccoli, cauliflower, kale and spinach are great. I steamed and put into a food processor. Fruits are blueberries and raspberries and cranberries among some of the best. I feed my girls Earthborn for kibble and Grandma Lucy’s as a freeze dried “raw” alternative. I have also learned that tripe is especially good for dogs if they will eat it and you can stand the smell. Jesse our old girl loves it and Tayla our 9 month old won’t even sniff it. Switch it around and do the best you can. That’s all any of us can do.


I will have to try spinach. Broccoli gives Wyatt gas:yuck:


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## vleffingwell (Jan 12, 2011)

I feed Abby and Dory carrots and they fight with me over my cherry tomatoes in the garden!! Just stay away from grapes - they have a toxic chemical that affects dogs.
My girl is just 1 this week, I would trade her monster puppy antics for anything!


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## Hannah's Mommy (Mar 13, 2012)

kdowningxc... Thanks!! And no defending, I promise! 

I'm taking tons of notes on the fruits and veggies (and noting the broccoli gas...LOL)! Thank you, thank you!! Hannah hasn't really had people food at all yet, but obviously there are great benefits for her in those. She's not a picky eater at all, so I'm betting she'll love them!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I don't care where anyone gets their dog; just don't defend BYBs, please! I have friends who got their dogs from BYBs who didn't know any better and I don't care. I don't say a word. I even have a good friend whose family backyard bred a litter of goldens. So is his family a BYB? I would like to think not (but according to some on here they are).. but we have not and will never discuss it. Let's just all love our babies.. that's the most important thing, no matter what!

As for broccoli.. I never give Molly more than two small pieces because I am afraid of her gas  I am seriously thinking about getting a dehydrator so I can use fruits and veggies as treats; does anyone know if dehydrating causes a loss in nutrients??


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I don't care where anyone gets their dog; just don't defend BYBs, please! I have friends who got their dogs from BYBs who didn't know any better and I don't care. I don't say a word.* I even have a good friend whose family backyard bred a litter of goldens. So is his family a BYB? I would like to think not (but according to some on here they are)..* but we have not and will never discuss it.
> 
> As for broccoli.. I never give Molly more than two small pieces because I am afraid of her gas  I am seriously thinking about getting a dehydrator so I can use fruits and veggies as treats; does anyone know if dehydrating causes a loss in nutrients??


Sure they are a backyard breeder. Why do you care what others think?


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

Yes, it does, any heat does they say, but I doubt it is significant. I steam veggies lightly and grind to break up the fibers which are hard to digest for them.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Sure they are a backyard breeder. Why do you care what others think?


Oh I don't, I just didn't want to think of them that way, even if others might. I know by definition they are.. but I really don't care. And I certainly don't care what others think about my friend, someone they don't even know, lol!


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## CStrong73 (Jun 11, 2012)

Hannah's Mommy said:


> Thank you, Tayla's Mom... Another wonderful perspective from both sides! Almost 15... that's awesome!
> 
> I feed Hannah the Adult Chicken food from Three Dog Bakery. It rates very well on the dogfoodanalysis.com site. I switched her early from Science Diet - the food we'd always used in the past - when I saw how badly SD ranks now. She also loves her sweet potato jerky and other goodies that make her "work" a little. Everything is "Made in the USA" only... I'm a stickler about that.
> 
> I need to start adding fresh veggies... Any suggestions on those that are best tolerated by little tummies?


Our breeder told us any veggies except onions were OK, and fruits other than grapes/raisins.

So Rocket has had: Broccoli, green beans, peas, mushrooms, carrots, lettuce, watermelon, cantalope. He's also had very small amounts ( a couple bites) of pork, chicken and steak. The green veggies he had a decent amount of. Everything else was just a couple bites. But so far, not a single tummy problem. No strange stools, no vomit, nothing. He's loved everything he's tried. LOL!

Oh, and he is just about 14 weeks old.


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## Hannah's Mommy (Mar 13, 2012)

Loving our babies... Absolutely the most important thing! 

We have a dehydrator (hubby makes awesome beef jerky) but I'll keep the veggies out of it.


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## Hannah's Mommy (Mar 13, 2012)

CStrong73, a dog park friend of mine can't even cut into a watermelon without her babies coming running! They LOVE the stuff! Must get some for Hannah.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Hannah's Mommy said:


> CStrong73, a dog park friend of mine can't even cut into a watermelon without her babies coming running! They LOVE the stuff! Must get some for Hannah.


Once, Molly was sleeping and I snuck into the kitchen very quietly without making a single sound and started eating already cut watermelon VERY quietly.. Molly was there within seconds!!


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## Hannah's Mommy (Mar 13, 2012)

The flip-side to the nutritional goodness for them is less for us!! LOL


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

I love reading about these fruits & veggies! Going to try some. Ky is a picky eater and recently found her allergies are due to grains. She's on Innova grain free now but will sometimes go 2 days without eating hoping we'll fold and give her something better. I will try adding veggies tonight. I've never given her "people" food because we had problems with previous dogs that I didn't want to repeat.
Thank you all!
Bon Appetit


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## DBrothers (Jul 6, 2009)

Since 1968 I've been owned by 5 goldens and 1 golden mix. The first one came from a "hobby" breeder who mostly raised field trial and gun dogs, probably would be considered a BYB today, but I didn't know any better. Other than our current girl (who just turned 3), the rest were either rescues or freebies and I don't know much about their origins. All turned out well, none had hip or cancer problems and all lived to be 12 or 13. Bottom line don't worry too much about where they came from after the fact, have fun and love them. Sometimes its just the luck of the draw.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

No one should have to 'apologize' to anyone over where they got their dog from and I think it is sad that one should feel the need to. In all we have 6 dogs, three are purchased from private parties, three are rescues, two of which were slated for euthenasia. Only one of them, from a private sale, a golden mix, has health issues and the oldest ones are 10 and 12 yrs old. My future dogs will be rescues. We all make the best decisions we can for our animals based on what we know - no one can fault us for that. We all take a chance not matter where our dogs come from, but we have a responsibility and owe it to them, to do the best we can for those dogs in our care.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I have a feeling that if everyone on here told the truth, most of us got our dogs from byb's. There's a vocal group on here who advocate strongly against this, and I think most people just don't say anything rather than get into an argument, or be made to feel guilty about it.

The only people I know outside this forum who go through all the steps recommended here before getting a dog, are those who wish to purchase show dogs. I don't know anyone outside of this group who bought their dog anywhere but from an ad in the paper, or a pet store, or the guy down the street who has a couple of dogs and has a litter every year or so. Is it wrong? That's not for me to say. Is it the way things are for most of us? I'd be willing to bet it is.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

*There are no guarantees in life so enjoy your baby and provide the best care and love that you can. *

My dogs were all rescues and we are human, made a lot of mistakes along the way. Our first boy ate a kibble I won't even mention by name (not Old Roy!!) and lived to 13 1/2 years of age. Our second rescue spent 6+ years with a family who neglected him, physically and emotionally, and he lived to exactly one month shy of his 13th birthday. I feel so fortunate that despite our mistakes and the mistakes of their previous owners, we got as much time as we did with them. Our philosophy now is to just enjoy them, and do the best we possibly can for them, continue to learn about caring for them so we can make positive improvements, and to find something special to celebrate about them every single day.


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

laprincessa said:


> I have a feeling that if everyone on here told the truth, most of us got our dogs from byb's. There's a vocal group on here who advocate strongly against this, and I think most people just don't say anything rather than get into an argument, or be made to feel guilty about it.
> 
> The only people I know outside this forum who go through all the steps recommended here before getting a dog, are those who wish to purchase show dogs. I don't know anyone outside of this group who bought their dog anywhere but from an ad in the paper, or a pet store, or the guy down the street who has a couple of dogs and has a litter every year or so. Is it wrong? That's not for me to say. Is it the way things are for most of us? I'd be willing to bet it is.


Ya nailed it!
Thanks for posting that.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Our first Golden came from a byb...the mother of our son's best friend. It was truly a case of "I've got a girl, you've got a boy" litter. Polly had food allergies but we solved them with home made food and she lived to 14 1/2...8 years after solving her problems

Penny came from a hobby breeder and is going strong at 10 1/2. I found the ad in the Sunday paper. We went, we held the last 2 puppies available and Penny's Dad picked her. We took her home.

I agree that most people got their Goldens in a way that would not be approved by this forum. 

I don't feel like criticizing the way people get their puppies. But, I do feel that pet store puppies are at MUCH MORE RISK, almost certainty for problems. I feel strongly about buying from pet stores.

No one knows what the future holds.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Hannah's Mom*

Hannah's Mom

Like many others have said there is no predicting what dog, what breed, what age, MIGHT get cancer, or another illness. Don't be busy worrying about these things that are out of our control and miss the enjoyment and pure joy of having a dog!!
My husband and I have had dogs from reputable breeders, have adopted dogs from rescues, adopted dogs from shelters and they all lived to about the age of 12.
All breeds, mixed breeds, too, get diseases such as cancer. For every sad story you read here or elsewhere there are MANY, MANY, HAPPY ONES. We do what we can to keep our dogs healthy and then we have to turn it over to God.
Your Hannah is beautiful!


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## Miaya's mom (Oct 27, 2011)

Our Miaya came from the pet store, no matter how long she lives it will not be long enough she has brought so much joy to our lives. It really does not matter where you get your dog from, improve the breed not improve the breed, we all do the best we can for our furry kids. In return they give us unconditional love.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Your Hannah is absolutely beautiful, enjoy her, love her, and give her the best possible life you can. 

My two goldens are purebreds, however they are not well bred goldens. My girl was adopted from a GR Rescue, she's a former puppy mill momma who had a very rough life her first two years. Today she's healthy, happy and loving life, she turns 8 in Dec. I have a three yr. old Golden boy I adopted from my Co. Humane Society a year ago after I lost my bridge boy at the age of 15.5. I had gotten him from a local family who let their girl have ONE litter which I was later told was a BYB-never heard this term before. He was very healthy up until his last yr. of life, he had cancer. 

All of my goldens have always loved fresh fruits and veggies-I give them basically whatever is in season-cantaloupe, watermelon, bananas, carrots, sweet potatoes, zucchini, squash, etc. We plant a garden every year and I also live right across from a Produce field, the stand is right around the corner from my house. I pick up anything we don't grow ourselves. Last year the farmer had a bumper crop of watermelons, the workers gave us several melons. We ate watermelon all summer long, my guys were in heaven.

I give my guys a daily fish oil tablet, they are eating a Salmon dog food, and I also give them a Dasuquin with MSM tablet daily. You might check with your Vet to see what he/she recommends.


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## brianne (Feb 18, 2012)

Hannah is beautiful and it doesn't matter where she came from. I agree with the other posters that it is most important to love and enjoy our dogs. I've had several dogs over the years - all of them rescues so I didn't know anything about their histories. Thankfully they all lived to ripe old ages before succumbing to cancer or old-age. 

There are no guarantees in life for humans OR canines regardless of pedigrees.


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## jimla (Oct 9, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Wyatt loves and tolerates fresh green beans.


Yup, our guys are crazy about fresh green beans from the greenhouse!


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## Nyahsmommy (Jul 23, 2011)

Nyah was from an accident litter we found on kijiji. She has had 0 health problems , amazing temperment, loves everyone and everything. I read several cases on here of people getting pups from top breeders only to have them gets sick at 3 months, 6 months, etc. it's all a gamble. Just because you pay more and the parents have clearances doesn't mean they will live longer. Genetics do play a roll but it's still random.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Okay, I'm one of the "vocal group" that strongly advocates responsible breeding...hands down. It _does_ matter where you get your puppy, at least to me and the many, many dedicated breeders that spend their lives trying to _improve_ our breed. If you don't know any better and you support a BYB, well, hopefully next time, when you _do_ know better, you'll do better. I'm not saying that puppies already bought from BYBs don't deserve a loving and caring home. Of course they do...he**, Chance is from one of the biggest BYB/puppy mills around and I love him with all my heart. But...his body is a train wreck. Severe ED, ichthyosis and chronic digestive issues. That's why his first family gave him up. He's in some pain all the time and wouldn't even be able to walk if not for his meds.  

I'll *never* change my opinion on this and I'll *never* support a BYB. If I ever decide to purchase a puppy, I'll stack the deck in favor of getting a healthy dog from *fully health tested parents*, (no, not a guarantee, but definitely a step in the right direction), and know that I supported a breeder that believed in upholding the preservation of _healthy_ and _to breed standard_ Golden Retrievers. 

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now...


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Awww! Hannah looks adorable! You seem to be an excellent doggie mom. It is great that you have had experience with other dogs. I am so glad that you will be finding help here for your heart doggy, Hannah.


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## Hannah's Mommy (Mar 13, 2012)

Wow, you guys... I'm overwhelmed by all of your responses! You've got me choked up AND smiling... Thank you SO much!! 

And I LOVE seeing your beautiful babies in your "signatures!" Such happy kids!!

Hannah and I enjoyed a Girls' Day of Shopping this morning and had a blast together. We stocked the car with water for both of us and headed out to Bone Appetit, two different Petsmarts and Petco. LOL! She got a Star Spinner Dog Toy Puzzle, some BIG Sweet Potato Jerky treats that we'd been waiting on for a restock, a split-in-half deer antler (she loves her full elk antler, but it's getting harder to get to the good stuff), a treat-stuffing toy and her usual assortment of goodies. 

I mentioned this on another thread, as much as I dislike shopping for myself, I LOVE shopping for/with Hannah!


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## AlanK (Jun 28, 2008)

Well before my pal Tuff literally wandered into my life and I found this forum I was clueless about breeding practices both good and bad. My buddy came from a BYB and with the exception of arthritis issues he is a happy healthy boy. 

That being said I commend the breeders on this forum who do the right things and work to breed Golden Retrievers responsibly and strive for a healthy bloodline. 

This forum hopefully is helping to educate folks like me who did not understand proper and ethical breeding practices. 

We all live with the cards we are dealt.... K-9 or human.

PS...Hannah is a beauty.


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## Hannah's Mommy (Mar 13, 2012)

Thanks Alan! And Tuff Dog is SO gorgeous!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Hannah's Mommy said:


> I want to be a good participant on the forums, but my heart breaks with the thought of losing Hannah every time I see another mommy or daddy's pain expressed here. My heart goes out to each and everyone who's lost their beloved Golden and my heart cheers for everyone who finds their new heart baby to bring home.
> 
> Thanks for sharing and caring... Please be gentle with me.


As Wyant's Mom said and she is awesome, there is no guarantee reputable or BYB. We have had both since 1972. Trooper was a $2000 puppy with all the possible and impossible clearances, pedigree and family history, champion heritage etc back in 1991 - he developed petite mal seizures at age of 6 and got aggravated to grand mal seizures. With care and love he lived to be almost 14. I think that if you and your vet have a good relationship and trust each other will be for the benefit of you puppy in the long run. As far as the spaying time, most of the stuff online is full of controversies. Spaying before the first heat spaying after the age of 2 etc. Your vet is the one to know when it is the best time for it.


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## Hannah's Mommy (Mar 13, 2012)

Thank you, Claudia! We've had the same vet since 1978 and just love everyone on staff. Hannah's primary doc also has Goldens at home, which I'm very grateful for. I know she'll take care of ours as she does her own.


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

Hannah is absolutely beautiful. My Mick from a BYB would love her to death. :wave:


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## Hannah's Mommy (Mar 13, 2012)

And that feeling would be VERY mutual, Tennyson! Hannah ADORES all dogs, but is especially drawn to fellow Goldens!


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

AlanK said:


> That being said I commend the breeders on this forum who do the right things and work to breed Golden Retrievers responsibly and strive for a healthy bloodline.
> 
> This forum hopefully is helping to educate folks like me who did not understand proper and ethical breeding practices.


I so agree with this. I hope someday way in the future to get a pup from a breeder that does everything they can to improve the breed. 

I too got my first Golden from a byb back when I knew little in what to look for. After that I have been just adopting Goldens. Who knows where they came from in terms of breeders and what kind of health issues they may ever have. 

Everyone is entitled to make their own decisions on where they will get a pup from. This forum is here to help pass on the information to help people be more aware of all the possibilities out there. I personally will take the information from here and use it in the future, but that is my choice. No matter where you get your Golden from the most important thing to me is that it is loved and well cared for to the best of your abilities.


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

Hannah is beautiful! I can see the love in both of you in your picture. We have lost 5 goldens over the last 30 years and our last loss, Emmy, was only 3 months ago. The pain is unbearable BUT I would not have missed all of the wonderful years of love and happiness by not having them. I feel the love they give us is worth the pain at the end. We got our first golden from a byb and all the rest were researched breeder purchases. Even though they had no health issues through out their lives we lost each of them to cancer. Would I do it again?? Absolutely in a heart beat. Enjoy your precious golden angel.


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## photoweborama (Dec 6, 2007)

If it is the right dog for you, then it is not a mistake.
The main thing is to love and enjoy them, and take care of their needs.


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## Hannah's Mommy (Mar 13, 2012)

Rob's GRs said:


> I so agree with this. I hope someday way in the future to get a pup from a breeder that does everything they can to improve the breed.
> 
> I too got my first Golden from a byb back when I knew little in what to look for. After that I have been just adopting Goldens. Who knows where they came from in terms of breeders and what kind of health issues they may ever have.
> 
> Everyone is entitled to make their own decisions on where they will get a pup from. This forum is here to help pass on the information to help people be more aware of all the possibilities out there. I personally will take the information from here and use it in the future, but that is my choice. No matter where you get your Golden from the most important thing to me is that it is loved and well cared for to the best of your abilities.



So true, Rob... Thank you!


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## Hannah's Mommy (Mar 13, 2012)

gold4me said:


> Hannah is beautiful! I can see the love in both of you in your picture. We have lost 5 goldens over the last 30 years and our last loss, Emmy, was only 3 months ago. The pain is unbearable BUT I would not have missed all of the wonderful years of love and happiness by not having them. I feel the love they give us is worth the pain at the end. We got our first golden from a byb and all the rest were researched breeder purchases. Even though they had no health issues through out their lives we lost each of them to cancer. Would I do it again?? Absolutely in a heart beat. Enjoy your precious golden angel.


gold4me, thank you so much for sharing... Three months, wow... I can't begin to imagine. I'm so sorry.

And I agree and would go through all the heartaches of past losses again. When Hannah's time comes - hopefully a long, long, long time from now, I know it will be the hardest ever. I understand now about the special love between Goldens and their "parents."


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## dezymond (May 3, 2012)

I dread the day when it's Maverick's time, but until then I hope we have many many healthy and happy years together.

It always saddened me to hear when a person's dog passed or needs to be put down. Now it really hits home, but it's something that comes with pet ownership. 

I've only had Maverick for a little over 3 months and I can't imagine a day without him. This has been the happiest 3 months of my life, no doubt about it. Coming home to a puppy wagging his tail all excited, curling up next to my feet while I type away on this computer, laying next to me while I watch TV, and even laying next to me while eating my meals without bugging me (ok, after a few seconds). Even as I type this now, I am happy knowing he's downstairs sleeping by his favorite spot dreaming away. It's these little moments we spend time together that are cherished and will be remembered long after he is gone.

I dedicated my summer to my dog and it's paying off with each passing day. I've done it with the help of this forum and friends. The advice found here is invaluable and has made my relationship with Maverick even better. I look to be a long contributing member of this forum with Maverick right by my side, well maybe not physically right now but you get the point :


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## Jessie'sGirl (Aug 30, 2010)

My older son, against my advice, purchased a golden from a byb. Angus is smart as a whip. as agile as a gazelle, and a real beauty. Of the two, Jess is much calmer. Both so far are healthy dogs. I find myself mentally comparing them due to their different backgrounds. I'm hoping they both have long and active lives as I have come to love them both.


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## Hannah's Mommy (Mar 13, 2012)

Beautiful post, dezymond... So many parallels to me and Hannah, too. I hope you and Maverick are together for a LONG LONG time!


And I hope the same for you, Jessie's girl!


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## dezymond (May 3, 2012)

For the record I'm in the same boat as you Hannah's Mommy. I didn't get Maverick from an official recognized breeder, but they seemed like good honest people. I got to see both parents who were all in good health and Molly (Maverick's mom) was one of the sweestest Goldens I've ever met. The first thing she did to me when I pulled up was, calmy walk over and asked to be pet, by then I was sold that Maverick would end up the same. The owners told me their story and their history with Goldens and were completely honest (I'm pretty good at reading people). They showed me the papers of both parents; registrations, health certificates, etc. and right there I knew I had almost nothing to worry about with Maverick.

To this day he has been perfectly healthy except for a case of pink eye and an upset stomach. He was happy as can be even after he was neutered last week (he rushed me with that huge cone and actually got a couple scars on my leg because of that cone), but well worth it. He's happy as can be which makes me happy.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Rob's GRs said:


> Everyone is entitled to make their own decisions on where they will get a pup from. This forum is here to help pass on the information to help people be more aware of all the possibilities out there. I personally will take the information from here and use it in the future, but that is my choice. No matter where you get your Golden from the most important thing to me is that it is loved and well cared for to the best of your abilities.


It is so nice to see some positive comments. I have been reading this thread as well as "Puppy Costs" and have been dismayed by all the negativity and personal attacks. 

Our Max came from a BYB, and like many here, I had never heard of such things as clearances until I joined this forum, even though we had owned two Golden Retrievers prior to Max. Shortly after I joined the forum, I mentioned the positive experience we had with our breeder, and my posts went up in flames. 

One person was so negative as to imply that Max would no doubt have health problems because he came from a backyard breeder. 

While I know there are passionate opinions about many issues concerning the wonderful breed of Golden Retrievers, I would hope we would all express our thoughts in a positive way. I pledge to do my best to convey my opinions in such a way.


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## AlanK (Jun 28, 2008)

Max's Dad said:


> I
> 
> While I know there are passionate opinions about many issues concerning the wonderful breed of Golden Retrievers, I would hope we would all express our thoughts in a positive way. I pledge to do my best to convey my opinions in such a way.


Thank you for your compassion and caring thoughts!


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Let's go beyond the lack of health testing concerning BYBs. Let's look at the breed standard aspect of it. First off...I'm not saying that all BYB puppies/dogs do not look to be the breed they are. I have a BYB dog and I think he's beautiful. :smooch: Would I have paid money for him...absolutely not. As I said before, I won't support a less than responsible breeder.

If/when I _buy_ a puppy, I want that puppy to mature into a dog that looks like the breed I love. I don't want a Dane that looks like a Greyhound and I don't want a Golden that looks anything less than the standard. 

These two pictures show what can happen when breeding dogs, (Danes in this case), that should not have been bred. The dog on the left is a beautiful example of what a well bred Dane should look like. The picture on the right, (BYB Dane that is structurally a mess), shows how that standard can be brought down in just two generations, (click on it to make it bigger):



I'm not going to picture Goldens in the same way because invariably, feelings would be hurt because we all feel our dogs are beautiful. But just think about the consequences of irresponsible breeding. Look again at the picture...we're going to end up with dogs that don't look like the breeds we fell in love with. Not to mention the temperaments will change, also. 

I don't want that to happen...so I won't line a BYB's pockets so they can continue to breed dogs that shouldn't be bred.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

This is a great thread! Keep them coming we would love to hear about your beautiful babies! Gotta love those goldens!
Thanks for starting it Hannah's mommy!


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

I picked Mick out of the BYB litter because he has eyes like Nick Nolte's mugshot.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I have three goldens all of who came from less than reputable breeders & one of which who was a horrendous breeder despite his family saying he was a devoted "animal rescuer/lover" in his obituary. My girl was a breeder dog in a mill--she doesn't have a correct temperament, hypothyroid and now I'm having to pursue a neurology consult to assess whether or not she's having seizures after working with specialists to rule out intestinal issues. As she was surrendered to rescue at the age of 3 with a copy of her AKC paperwork (kids had to liquidate the estate/mill of their father) I was able to find out a bit about her life. Her mother was passed between 2 mills while pregnant with her and my girl was bred when she was a little over a year and again when she was a little over two to her dad who was diagnosed with SAS/lvl 4 heart murmur and physical abnormalities in his foot. Based on the paper trail, two of her pups have also ended up being bred along with her brother. If the demand didn't exist for cheap pups, she wouldn't have had to endure what she has and perhaps that would've meant she didn't exist either, and I would be ok with that cause she didn't ask for this. 

My second golden was surrendered to rescue after his owners sought out a "do it yourself neuter" and he developed a bad infection. He has severe allergies and is on allergy shots, his ears have had so many infections & are so deformed now due to the scar tissue that my vet said at some point his ear canal will close up and surgery will be required--we're working like mad to keep this from happening, but I'm also saving up for when that day comes. He also doesn't have a golden temperament and have had to work with professional trainers on resource guarding & fear aggression--some of which I'm sure is attributed to his life pre-rescue & some is just what's in his DNA.

My 3rd golden is hypothyroid, he came into rescue with black skin & hardly any hair since it went undiagnosed for so long--he was regularly seen by a vet, they just never ran the obvious test to check for a thyroid disorder. He also has bad hips and his shoulder is giving him pains--at 11 I've got to say some this is him being a golden oldie and some is attributed to his breeder not taking account proper structure.

Volunteering with GR rescues in OK, MO & GA, I've seen so many poorly bred goldens who lucked out in the health/temperament sector and many more that didn't--whole litters of pups born blind & with epilepsy, many hip & elbow surgeries, liver shunts in golden/poodle mixes, allergies, temperament issues (seen both dog & human aggression). And I've also been apart of puppy mill/auction transports where your torn between anger at the millers for what they did to these dogs & sorrow to see a golden so fearful of humans. In addition, I've seen & heard of many cases where a person poses as family having just one litter with the family pets to only find out it's a cover as they have many more dogs being bred at another location or further back on the property--their pups are listed in the paper every week of the year and/or listed on puppyfind.com

As kwhit stated above "I won't line a BYB's pockets so they can continue to breed dogs that shouldn't be bred".


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Tennyson said:


> I picked Mick out of the BYB litter because he has eyes like Nick Nolte's mugshot.



LOL! We must have pictures!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

SheetsSM, what a wonderful dog owner you are. It does not sound like an easy path.... Keep fighting the BYB battle.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

kwhit said:


> Let's go beyond the lack of health testing concerning BYBs. Let's look at the breed standard aspect of it. First off...I'm not saying that all BYB puppies/dogs do not look to be the breed they are. I have a BYB dog and I think he's beautiful. :smooch: Would I have paid money for him...absolutely not. As I said before, I won't support a less than responsible breeder.
> 
> If/when I _buy_ a puppy, I want that puppy to mature into a dog that looks like the breed I love. I don't want a Dane that looks like a Greyhound and I don't want a Golden that looks anything less than the standard.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone is asking you to do that. And I don't think anyone disagrees with most of what you've said. The problem for me comes when I feel like people are judging me and implying that there's something wrong with my dog because he didn't cost $1500 or more and didn't have champions (at least I don't think he did) for grandparents. That's why I said that I think a great many people here won't actually say where they got their dog.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

SheetsSM--Thank you for your dedication and hard working devotion to helping abused Golden Retrievers, and I expect other breeds as well. I cannot imagine the heartbreaking situations you have seen. 

It sounds to me that you have witnessed animal abuse that is criminal in nature. Do it yourself neutering!!! Puppy mills!!! The scenes that you describe will give me nightmares.

I think it is fair to say, however, that what you describe goes way beyond what happens in many backyard breeding situations.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Max's Dad said:


> I think it is fair to say, however, that what you describe goes way beyond what happens in many backyard breeding situations.


I'd say a majority of the rescues are from BYBs with a handful being from hardcore/high volume mills. No matter the case, none of the breeders whether it be the first time breeder with the family pets or the educated family with a large kennel operation, have expressed any interest in taking in there dogs when they've been notified that one of their pups was surrendered to rescue--yes, we've contacted breeders when the dogs were surrendered with papers. The transaction was complete the day they sold that pup--zero lifetime commitment to what they produced.

I just ask people who are happy to frequent BYBs to think about that pup's parents and the rest of pups in the litter--are they going to be so lucky to end up with a forever family the first time? From my experience, it's doubtful otherwise we wouldn't be bringing in thousands of goldens each year to rescue--and those goldens aren't all coming from high-volume kennels, they're coming from the BYBs in your neighborhoods. Once you know better, do better--please don't perpetuate the cycle.


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## AlanK (Jun 28, 2008)

Lets not turn this thread into a BYB debate. This started out as a compassionate learning thread and a person who is concerned for their dog. Please be nice my friends. I will be for now


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Lucky came from a hobby breeder who used his dog's for hunting- His dog's lived to retrieve and Lucky was a die hard retriever til the day he died. He as almost 13. Never really skin a day in his life other than hot spots and a left ear exclusive ear infection- Both went away when he was 10. His breeder told us from the start his dog's are sensitive but ticks (100% true for Lucky) and had narrow, tilted ear canals so you need to be on top of ear maintenance (100% true again).

Buddy is a rescue- He was bred in Amish country, PA- Sold to a drunk to did not care for him properly at all. Denies he abused Buddy physically however who knows what he did when he was drunk. All I know is Buddy was a physical, emotional, and physiological mess when I got him. Physically he has recovered overall but he will always have unseen scars. I love him to death but no dog deserves what he went through. Buddy was bred to make money only. He does have structural issues do to poor breeding and malnutrition as a puppy. People will continue to buy from these "greeders" with the majority of dogs IMO not getting the life they deserve.

I know for myself I could never buy from a BYB myself but I would rescue another like Buddy in a second. I could only purchase from a reputable breeder but yes I would rescue a dog that was bred by BYB originally. Yes BYB can produce wonderful dogs but they should not be supported.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

And I 'm happy to say that both Wyatt's parents are living with their loving family since they both were 8 weeks old. And Wyatt visits them often.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

AlanK said:


> Lets not turn this thread into a BYB debate. This started out as a compassionate learning thread and a person who is concerned for their dog. Please be nice my friends. I will be for now


It kind of turned into a BYB debate starting with post #2--just want to make sure all sides are represented for anyone wanting to learn. My experiences haven't been all roses & rainbows with my backyard bred goldens, but I love them just the same.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

laprincessa said:


> That's why I said that I think a great many people here won't actually say where they got their dog.


If they didn't know any better and bought from a BYB, I can't fault them, (BTW...I _never_ fault the dogs). If they _did_ know about BYBs and their less than stellar breeding practices and bought from them anyway, then I feel that those buyers are just as responsible for the problem as the BYBs themselves. If they didn't have customers buying, BYBs, mills and pet stores that sell puppies would go away. Far, far away...:wave: 

As I said before...hopefully, if you know better, you do better. If you don't want to pay the price of a well bred puppy/dog, then rescue. These are my beliefs and no one will ever change my mind. I love all dogs and would never say bad things about the dogs themselves. But...I'd sure as he** say a few choice words about their "breeders".


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I have nothing but admiration for those who rescue. My best friend took in a yellow lab and in all honesty, I would have had to send him back before the first day was over. A year and a half of hard work has turned him into a pretty good dog, but one who will never be trusted around strangers or un-neutered male dogs. 

I know I couldn't do it. So if I have no other alternative, I guess I have to spend the rest of my life, after Max, without a dog.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Hannah's Mommy said:


> Wow, you guys... I'm overwhelmed by all of your responses! You've got me choked up AND smiling... Thank you SO much!!
> 
> And I LOVE seeing your beautiful babies in your "signatures!" Such happy kids!!
> 
> ...


Wow! What a day Hannah had! She is one lucky pup! I love your signature by the way.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

MikaTallulah said:


> Lucky came from a hobby breeder who used his dog's for hunting- His dog's lived to retrieve and Lucky was a die hard retriever til the day he died. He as almost 13. Never really skin a day in his life other than hot spots and a left ear exclusive ear infection- Both went away when he was 10. His breeder told us from the start his dog's are sensitive but ticks (100% true for Lucky) and had narrow, tilted ear canals so you need to be on top of ear maintenance (100% true again).
> 
> .


LOL! I have hard enough time keeping Wyatt's ears dry, as much as he swims every day! I feel like pinning them up with clothes pins LOL!


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> LOL! I have hard enough time keeping Wyatt's ears dry, as much as he swims every day! I feel like pinning them up with clothes pins LOL!


Last time I took Max to the groomer, his ears would not get dry, so she actually did pin them up! Not with a clothespin, though, a hair thingie that she uses on little dogs and not his ears, really, his fur. Okay, never mind.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

laprincessa said:


> Last time I took Max to the groomer, his ears would not get dry, so she actually did pin them up! Not with a clothespin, though, a hair thingie that she uses on little dogs and not his ears, really, his fur. Okay, never mind.


LOL! Do they even make clothes pins anymore?


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> LOL! Do they even make clothes pins anymore?


I don't know! I have a whole bag of them, maybe I could sell them on ebay and be a gazillionaire!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> And I 'm happy to say that both Wyatt's parents are living with their loving family since they both were 8 weeks old. And Wyatt visits them often.


And hopefully Wyatt's siblings are living as equally as well lives


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> And hopefully Wyatt's siblings are living as equally as well lives


We just had our second reunion at the breeders house when they turned 2 in May.


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## AlanK (Jun 28, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> LOL! Do they even make clothes pins anymore?


 Yikes we still dry our clothes on the clothes line out back. Of course they make em:uhoh:


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

AlanK said:


> Yikes we still dry our clothes on the clothes line out back. Of course they make em:uhoh:


Oops! I thought I was just showing my age::


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

laprincessa said:


> The problem for me comes when I feel like people are judging me and implying that there's something wrong with my dog.


I think this is exactly why so many of these threads keep popping up with the same people saying the same things.... 

And I really wish that people who feel this insecure about their dogs need to get over it. Nobody is judging them when they post pictures of their dogs or talk about their dogs. 

My first boybear was a backyard bred golden. We loved him to pieces despite all his faults. And he had a LOT of faults. Health issues. Temperament issues. About the only thing that was right on with him was his hunting drive and his mouth. That dog loved to retrieve and if sent after a rabbit, he would run like the wind.

There are plenty of dogs out there who would hunt a rabbit and take it for themselves. With very little training (we were new owners) he would run like an arrow straight back to our feet with a live and unharmed rabbit that he willingly gave us. 

There were very rare times where this dog looked completely like a golden retriever with a noble soul shining through his brassy coat. Those times were generally on those days when he was out in our backyard and sitting at his favorite spot at the top of the hill, overlooking everything. He would sit there and just breathe in the news of the day. And be at complete peace. 

After we got his ashes back, my mom spread them in that same spot. 

And you know reminiscing in this way I'm sitting here crying a little - almost 20 years after we lost him. 

Loving that dog though doesn't mean I support backyard breeders. Or go on public forums and essentially tell people that money and research makes no difference in what you buy. 

Of course there is a huge difference. 

My Danny could have been a movie star if I wanted him to be. We had somebody come up who couldn't take his eyes off of Danny and wanted him for a movie that was being filmed in our area. This was back when Danny was in his prime, little less shy about strangers, and was breathtakingly beautiful. The guy promised everything but I told him "no" (I worked full time even back then and did not want my boy going anywhere without me). That guy wasn't the only one who couldn't take their eyes off of Danny or changed their minds about buying from good breeders after meeting him. 

Jacksipants has had many of the same good influence on people around us. And my point is that when people meet dogs who come from breeders who selectively bred dogs to the standard and for certain qualities, they can see the difference. 

I guess even speaking for myself - I bought Jacks from his breeder, because I loved everything about Danny whose mom came from the same breeder. That's the advantage of buying puppies who have known lines or come from breeders who are selective in what they breed for. 

I knew with Charmy that everything we loved about him was something of an accident. While everything that was critical about him was unfortunately the result of bad breeding. 

While I definitely don't judge people for buying and owning bybs.... I do definitely have to say that threads like this and opinions that repeatedly pop up on threads like this are sad. People need to stop getting all insecure comparing their dogs to other people's dogs or imagining themselves personally attacked when people condemn irresponsible breeding practices. Such bitter sensitivity is poisonous to a forum where I think the majority of members would not openly criticize or critique another person's dog.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

It has nothing to do with being insecure. Most people just don't like conflict. I can't blame them. However I have to say you are wrong about judging. There is a post on this thread that is very judgemental about the looks .


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Most people just don't like conflict.


Actually this is very true. 

Lots of people don't like fighting all the time. 



> However I have to say you are wrong about judging. There is a post on this thread that is very judgemental about the looks .


I didn't read this entire thread or much of the other one prior to that point where I started smacking myself and had to say something.  If you are referring to Karen's post, I believe she said that she was not posting any pictures of goldens because she did not want to hurt anyone's feelings if their dogs resembled the pics.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Megora said:


> Actually this is very true.
> 
> Lots of people don't like fighting all the time.
> 
> ...



: the message was loud and clear.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> ...the message was loud and clear.


The message is what *I* would pay for and the type of breeder I will/would support. Yes, I have a very strong opinion on BYBs and the people that *knowingly* buy from them and I have no problem stating it. 

And as far as looks go, Chance is waaaaaay over standard at 96 lbs., (looks very much like a Pyr), he is structurally incorrect, his health is not what it should be, he's what some would say is the "wrong" color and his temperament, although extremely loving to family members, is of a very, very shy and insecure dog. But...I love him and he's my heart. As I stated before though, *I would never have paid a penny to his "breeder" for him...*

Every Golden is wonderful. I'll say it again...every Golden Retriever is wonderful. Unfortunately...many of their breeders are not.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Tennyson said:


> I picked Mick out of the BYB litter because he has eyes like Nick Nolte's mugshot.


*LOL - TOO FUNNY!!! joining Wyatt's mommy in the request for pictures.*


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

AlanK said:


> Yikes we still dry our clothes on the clothes line out back. Of course they make em:uhoh:


oh shoot, and I really was hoping to be a gazillionaire!


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I'm not at all insecure about Max - there's a rare day that goes by without someone telling me how beautiful he is, how gentle, how sweet. 

I've posted pictures of him on here - he's larger than breed standard, but I don't ever plan to breed or show him, (and never did, he's a pet, first and foremost) so I don't mind that - I wanted a big dog and thought Goldens were supposed to be his size. 

I don't think all backyard breeders are horrible people who are only in it for the money and don't care about the dogs. I think some are, yes. But not all of them are. I've lived more than a few years, and known more than a few dogs, and I can honestly say I've known one dog - my brother-in-law's Saint Bernard - who came from anywhere but an ad in the paper, a guy down the road who happened to have an ooopsie litter, or from the SPCA. Other than that Saint Bernard, not a single one came from a "reputable" breeder. 

When someone comes here with a problem and the first question they're asked is "will your breeder take the dog back?" "what does your contract say?" or something along those lines, I think it sends people away. 

And I stand by my statement that a great many people here most likely got their dog from a byb but won't say so because they don't want to be judged.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

laprincessa said:


> I don't think all backyard breeders are horrible people...


I never said they're horrible people, (unless there's abuse involved as in mills), but I _do_ believe that their breeding practices are horrible.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

laprincessa said:


> And I stand by my statement that a great many people here most likely got their dog from a byb but won't say so because they don't want to be judged.


I agree! Just look at all the views compared to the posts.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

laprincessa said:


> I don't think all backyard breeders are horrible people who are only in it for the money and don't care about the dogs. I think some are, yes. But not all of them are. I've lived more than a few years, and known more than a few dogs, and I can honestly say I've known one dog - my brother-in-law's Saint Bernard - who came from anywhere but an ad in the paper, a guy down the road who happened to have an ooopsie litter, or from the SPCA. Other than that Saint Bernard, not a single one came from a "reputable" breeder.


I live in a big rescue and byb area too and have helped with a local all breed rescue. Nearly all the dogs - especially labs and beagles - come from backyard breeders in some way. 

That is why people are so critical of backyard breeders and condemn irresponsible breeding. 

You have animal rights groups who see no difference between a responsible breeder who guards their dog-offspring and keeps them out of shelters and rescues and those backyard breeders who _use_ the rescue community to cover up their mistakes that didn't sell. Or those bybs who go door to door and check around their office or park next to grocery stores to get rid of puppies that didn't sell. Or those bybs who donate puppies to raffles and parties and whatnot. Or those bybs who simply sell puppies, no questions asked.

Those breeders may be nice people. Charmy's breeders were nice people. But irresponsible and ignorant like very many bybs are.



> When someone comes here with a problem and the first question they're asked is "will your breeder take the dog back?" "what does your contract say?" or something along those lines, I think it sends people away.


The reason why those questions are asked is because you have people coming on here and essentially talking about getting rid of their dogs, or such. 

I know plenty of good breeders through the clubs I train at, and these people will move heaven and hell to make sure their dogs never end up in any rescue or shelter. This includes dictating that the dogs must go back to the breeder vs rehomed by the owner or surrendered to rescue. I even know a woman who stopped breeding completely because she found out a single golden had been in an abusive situation (this was a rehome) and then ended up in a shelter. 



> And I stand by my statement that a great many people here most likely got their dog from a byb but won't say so because they don't want to be judged.


If you mean this as a broad statement - that people are hiding the clandestine beginnings of their puppy's lives because they are embarrassed, ashamed, anxous about admitting that they bought a byb. I really haven't seen this as a "big secret" while I've been an active member of GRF. Lots of people have no problems saying where they got their puppies from. And even if they don't, I doubt it's a big deal for a lot of people. 

If you mean people aren't jumping on threads like this to support backyard breeders as others have.... who knows. Maybe they don't agree with some of the message.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Oh please! People are not embarrassed or ashamed of their dogs wherever they came from. They just don't want to deal with the nonsense.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> People are not embarrassed or ashamed of their dogs wherever they came from.


Exactly. I have not seen too many people going out of their way to avoid saying their dogs come from bybs. Or admitting that they ever owned a byb. Or admitting that they know a byb.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Oh please! People are not embarrassed or ashamed of their dogs wherever they came from. They just don't want to deal with the nonsense.


To you it's nonsense...to me it's seeing and living every day with my sweetheart of a dog that can't even walk around our block without stopping several times so I can massage his elbow. It's living every day with a dog that wants to play so bad but stops himself because he hurts. It's living every day with a dog that hates to take his daily meds but has to because only with these meds can he walk.

So what you call nonsense, I call education to those that haven't bought a puppy yet. To try to make them see that breeding dogs _need_ to be health tested. Future buyers deserve that and should be demanding it. And their future puppies deserve to have parents that are healthy, so they, in turn will have the best chance of having a life free of debilitating conditions.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> To you it's nonsense...to me it's seeing and living every day with my sweetheart of a dog that can't even walk around our block without stopping several times so I can massage his elbow. It's living every day with a dog that wants to play so bad but stops himself because he hurts. It's living every day with a dog that hates to take his daily meds but has to because only with these meds can he walk.
> 
> So what you call nonsense, I call education to those that haven't bought a puppy yet. To try to make them see that breeding dogs _need_ to be health tested. Future buyers deserve that and should be demanding it. And their future puppies deserve to have parents that are healthy, so they, in turn will have the best chance of having a life free of debilitating conditions.


And I feel for you and your dog!  as I went thru pretty much the same thing with my Cody. Not to mention how much money it cost me.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Megora said:


> Exactly. I have not seen too many people going out of their way to avoid saying their dogs come from bybs. Or admitting that they ever owned a byb. Or admitting that they know a byb.


Only the vocal ones:


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I went thru pretty much the same thing with my Cody...


Breaks your heart every day, doesn't it? 

One time Chance and I were walking at a local lake and we walked quite a ways, more than we usually did. He was so excited with all the smells and watching the ducks in the water that he pushed himself too far. I should have been more aware, but I was so happy that he was having such a good time. 

Well, about half way back he just laid down and held his leg up for me to massage it. He was squinting his eyes from the pain. He had been so happy...I just sat down next to him and started crying while I massaged his elbow. I must have massaged him for at least 20 minutes before he was able to start walking again...


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> Breaks your heart every day, doesn't it?
> 
> One time Chance and I were walking at a local lake and we walked quite a ways, more than we usually did. He was so excited with all the smells and watching the ducks in the water that he pushed himself too far. I should have been more aware, but I was so happy that he was having such a good time.
> 
> Well, about half way back he just laid down and held his leg up for me to massage it. He was squinting his eyes from the pain. He had been so happy...I just sat down next to him and started crying while I massaged his elbow. I must have massaged him for at least 20 minutes before he was able to start walking again...


Chance has a second chance.......thanks to you


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I went through the same thing with Danny too.... 

The thing with elbow dysplasia is that back then not to many breeders were checking the elbows prior to breeding. 

I really hope that the more breeders focus on testing elbows and avoiding breeding dogs whose elbows don't pass, that owners won't have to see their young dogs hobbling around like that. 

There still are good breeders out there who do not see elbows as a huge issue and will breed dogs with borderline elbows. It's something that does bother me because of what we went through with D. Other breeders, including Danny's breeder, tend to view elbow dysplasia as caused by injury. So if the owners let the dogs become overweight or let them run and jump too much or let them fall off the bed or couch, then that casts doubt on the hereditary condition. These breeders may be older and old school when it comes to elbows. 

That all said, elbow dysplasia and hip dysplasia are treatable and manageable conditions. And I believe that with your good breeders, they are doing everything they can to really avoid those catastrophic litters where the puppies have hips completely popped out of the socket or flat sockets. And whatever else. 

One breeder I know of imported a golden from Sweden particularly to improve the health of her lines. A good percentage of the litter or all were euthanized because their hips and elbows were horrific. 

Besides hips and elbows which again are manageable in most cases, there are other more fatal conditions that do plague our favorite breed. They do occur across the board, but I believe that your concerned breeder will be testing their dogs to ensure that they weren't carriers or avoiding repeating that breeding. One thing I can think of immediately is renal dysplasia, which is what we suspected our Charmy had. It's very hereditary and I know that his dad and several littermates died of the same thing (renal failure). We didn't have the necropsy done, so we don't know for sure. 

Cataracts is another thing which you can probably go either way about. It's not exactly a huge deal in most cases. They don't advance very quickly and if the dogs were born with them, they have no idea what the world's supposed to look like. It is a visible thing though. Charmy always had a slight fog in his eyes from his cataracts. His vet spotted them early and they really did not advance at all. 

But anyway, my thought is that problems definitely occur across the board. I think that what you look at is what the breeders do and say when those problems happen. Going further, I think you also have to look at the bigger picture beyond your dog. And I think sometimes these breeders do this. Sometimes they don't. Did just one dog in a litter develop ED, or was there a track record, etc...




> Originally Posted by *Megora*
> _Exactly. I have not seen too many people going out of their way to avoid saying their dogs come from bybs. Or admitting that they ever owned a byb. Or admitting that they know a byb._
> Only the vocal ones:


Are you talking about lurkers who never talk about anything on the forum? Who didn't participate in all of the polls about where their dogs are from, etc..

I'm still confused about what you guys are trying to say. 

You say that people aren't admitting they own a byb because they are afraid of being judged. But this doesn't mean they are embarrassed or ashamed. 

I pointed out that there have been a lot of people who made no attempts to hide where they purchased their puppies. Or it was clear or obvious enough they didn't have to. People go goo over the puppies and posing pictures just the same as they would if somebody was posting a picture of their show dogs. I don't think that people in general are as judgemental or discrimatory as some believe.

If you go by lurkers alone, I guess I probably should point out that there are a lot of members I can think of who would happily demolish any support of bybs. And they are wisely not speaking here.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

laprincessa said:


> When someone comes here with a problem and the first question they're asked is "will your breeder take the dog back?" "what does your contract say?" or something along those lines, I think it sends people away.
> 
> And I stand by my statement that a great many people here most likely got their dog from a byb but won't say so because they don't want to be judged.


I believe that this thread and the Puppy Cost thread has actually opened people a bit more as far as talking about where they got their pets. It has also opened my eyes as far as who does personal attacks on people, their vets and specialists and their pets. 

I allowed Rose to bite my fingers while reading some of the posts.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I haven't seen any attacks. I will say I am genuinely amazed that your vet is a cardiologist & ophthalmologist & takes quality OFA quality x-rays & is an expert in all things golden (conformation, temperament)--you did say he was the sole person you would consult with as to whether or not your pup (who you "rescued" from being bred) should be bred & since you're up to speed on what the GRCA recommends for ethical breeding, I can only infer that he is all of these things. 

I know you have stated you have all of the money to take care of the goldens should they have problems, but just because you have money does that justify them having to go through the pain of HD, ED, pigmentary uveitis, the treatment/recovery just because you have the money? How about doing everything from the get go to stack the odds in their favor that they don't need that money--instead you can spend it on buying lots of treats & stuffies?


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I read books on how to choose a breed that suited your family's personality and lifestyle, on breed characteristics, and how to properly screen breeders (information I shared with my son). Then I went to a dog show and was so impressed with the Golden Retrievers that I told my son about the show and he went the next day.
And came home that afternoon with Brooks in his arms. He didn't follow any of the advice, and Brooks was clearly from a BYB-who in recent years began to breed GoldenDoodles


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

SheetsSM - since this has been a nice discussion I shall not engage in your touting. If you indeed have good intentions please go back and read what I wrote. Until you comprehend what I wrote and show good intentions (ie - no snarky comments) I will disregard your posts.


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## Denlie (Nov 3, 2011)

I would have a Golden from a BYB if I would have gone with the first breeder that I found on the internet.

I'm sure that I would love him/her as much as I love my Gracie.

But I'm glad that I took the time to research and find a breeder that would give me the best chance of having a long, healthy life with my dog.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

I currently have 4 Goldens. Three of them are from BYBs. My puppy is from a breeder who does all clearances.

As I was sitting on the deck this morning, I was watching my 12 year old, who was diagnosed with cancer 14 months ago, roll around on the grass enjoying the coolness of the early morning air. My two 3.5 year olds were lying in the backyard, resting up for their agility party this evening.

Meanwhile, I was on the deck, cradling my 3 month old puppy with tears streaming down my face as I recall over and over in my head, the vet's words from 2 days ago. "He definitely has less muscle mass in his left leg. We will have to monitor him over the next few months as hip dysplasia is a concern". 

How's that for irony. Nothing is guaranteed. I can only pray that my beautiful little puppy, whose litter/pedigree I did so much research on, does not have hip dysplasia.


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## Ohiomom9977 (Jul 27, 2012)

Laurie said:


> I currently have 4 Goldens. Three of them are from BYBs. My puppy is from a breeder who does all clearances.
> 
> As I was sitting on the deck this morning, I was watching my 12 year old, who was diagnosed with cancer 14 months ago, roll around on the grass enjoying the coolness of the early morning air. My two 3.5 year olds were lying in the backyard, resting up for their agility party this evening.
> 
> ...


Praying for your little puppy!! 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Laurie said:


> I currently have 4 Goldens. Three of them are from BYBs. My puppy is from a breeder who does all clearances.
> 
> As I was sitting on the deck this morning, I was watching my 12 year old, who was diagnosed with cancer 14 months ago, roll around on the grass enjoying the coolness of the early morning air. My two 3.5 year olds were lying in the backyard, resting up for their agility party this evening.
> 
> ...


Oh gosh I am so sorry I had read you had gotten a new puppy and how excited you were, but I had no clue this was happening. Sending prayers! Let's hope the doctor is wrong.


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## Denlie (Nov 3, 2011)

(((((Reno))))))


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## Hannah's Mommy (Mar 13, 2012)

Laurie, sending tons of good thoughts to your sweet baby!

As I've been offline since yesterday afternoon, I can't respond individually, but want to thank you all again for your responses and encouragement and advice!

Just want to say as another poster did, Hannah is reached out to and complimented on her looks, temperment and playfulness daily when we're at the park or out shopping. People are flat-out drawn to her.  

Am I insecure? Nope. Just a newbie testing the waters - in the deep end! LOL And a Golden mommy who wants the very best in the world for her baby girl. She and I are just starting out and like everyone else with puppies, I want to be well-prepared for our adventures together - wherever they take us.

Love and hugs to all of you and your babies!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Laurie said:


> I currently have 4 Goldens. Three of them are from BYBs. My puppy is from a breeder who does all clearances.
> 
> As I was sitting on the deck this morning, I was watching my 12 year old, who was diagnosed with cancer 14 months ago, roll around on the grass enjoying the coolness of the early morning air. My two 3.5 year olds were lying in the backyard, resting up for their agility party this evening.
> 
> ...


I am so sorry about little Lexx.. I am hoping that everything will turn out just fine.


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## *Laura* (Dec 13, 2011)

Laurie I'm so sorry you have this worry about little Lexx. I'm thinking about your little guy


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Laurie said:


> I currently have 4 Goldens. Three of them are from BYBs. My puppy is from a breeder who does all clearances.
> 
> As I was sitting on the deck this morning, I was watching my 12 year old, who was diagnosed with cancer 14 months ago, roll around on the grass enjoying the coolness of the early morning air. My two 3.5 year olds were lying in the backyard, resting up for their agility party this evening.
> 
> ...


What does your breeder think? IMO 3 months is a bit young for hip dysphasia concerns. I hope your little one is okay and your vet is wrong.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

MikaTallulah said:


> What does your breeder think? IMO 3 months is a bit young for hip dysphasia concerns. I hope your little one is okay and your vet is wrong.


 
My breeder is concerned of course. We both agree that 3 months is young but the way Lexx runs concerns the vet. I hope the vet is wrong as well. In any event, we will monitor him and see what happens over the next few months.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Oh Laurie, I am so sorry, but I agree three months is kind of young for hip dysplasia. If there is decreased musculature, why not get to the bottom of it sooner rather than later? My first golden was given to me by her owner who noticed a problem at four months. She had corrective surgery and remained sound until she died at 12.5 years. Wishing you all the best. Hope it is nothing.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

Sally's Mom said:


> Oh Laurie, I am so sorry, but I agree three months is kind of young for hip dysplasia. If there is decreased musculature, why not get to the bottom of it sooner rather than later? My first golden was given to me by her owner who noticed a problem at four months. She had corrective surgery and remained sound until she died at 12.5 years. Wishing you all the best. Hope it is nothing.


Thanks.....I will definitely look into this!! We will do whatever is necessary to ensure Lexx leads a normal life.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

There's a lot that I don't say because I don't want to be jumped on.

For instance: I found a breeder, local to me, who is a hobby breeder. One litter every couple of years. Participates in local, casual shows and fairs. Encourages kids. She also runs a quality boarding facility. 

I posted about an upcoming litter and gave a link to her website. That's all it took. I remember all the criticism because one... ONE... female 5 generations back didn't have ONE of the required clearances. I was advised to RUN from this breeder.

So, I may or may not get another puppy someday. I can guarantee that I will never reveal where it came from. And not because I'm afraid of being judged but because I make the decisions that are right for me/us. I will share good news but don't need a bunch of people judging my decision making. Just don't need the negativity. I'm also pretty sure there's a lot of members like me...who know what to reveal and what to keep secret.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> Oh Laurie, I am so sorry, but I agree three months is kind of young for hip dysplasia. If there is decreased musculature, why not get to the bottom of it sooner rather than later? My first golden was given to me by her owner who noticed a problem at four months. She had corrective surgery and remained sound until she died at 12.5 years. Wishing you all the best. Hope it is nothing.


Janice would you recommend doing corrective surgery on a pup who is still growing though? 

I've been reading online about another breeder who was furious and threatened to take a puppy back because the owner's vet and specialist essentially took a 3 month old puppy's elbows apart and did such a surgery without consulting the breeder and without getting second opinions from the breeder's specialist on the elbows. 

There are a lot of people I know through the dog clubs I train at who won't do a thing about hips until the dog is completely grown, because there is a chance that things will correct themselves. 

One woman I know in particular had a vet pressure her to have surgery done on her 7 month old dog after they had a peek at the hips. The vet said the hips were severe and the worst she'd ever seen. 

The woman went to a specialist she trusts at MSU and he told her to hang in there, NOT to do surgery, and gave her recommendations on what to do in the meantime while the dog grew. 

That dog's hips ofa'd as Excellent a year later. 

Even my breeder has something in her contract that essentially says that nothing should be done unless the OFA's come back bad.

@Elizabeth - I avoid airing the names of my dogs' breeders as well. Some of that is because of privacy issues I have since this is a public forum. Privacy for me. Privacy for the breeders who entrusted their pups to me. I can talk about the things I don't like about those breeders or various concerns without it turning into "breeder fyi" thing.


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## newport (Aug 8, 2011)

It is always on the back of my mind as well- CANCER. Or some other terrible illness..... when I read about it I cringe. Thus I am so careful what I give to Lola to eat- to drink and what I put on her( or not). She probably gets more supplements than most humans consume..... all as preventative. I think many cancers- genetic or environmental CAN be stopped with the right lifestyle. I am not one for myself to wait for illness to happen... I am all into prevention. Thus- lifestyle and supplements for both me and my Lola!

BUT- just like my arthitis in knees and hips... somethings just are not fixable... thus surgery or the like may be in the picture. Life is just so unpredictable sometimes.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My Sally had a laterally luxating patella. And it was repaired probably when she was eight months old. She was a 1989 model, so my memory about that is sketchy. But it was done way before she was one year of age. The patella had made its' own groove on the lateral side of her femur. She was give a poor prognosis, but never limped a day in her life and eve got her CDX.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

We also don't rush to ortho stuff we always hold off... our connor was diagnosed as dysplastic at 5 mos. I called my breeder in a panic who said that you can't really see hips at 5 mos in an xray because they aren't really calcified yet... and not to panic... Connor is OFA good and is now almost 12 (in a few weeks) 

Our Cuinn was diagnosed with a luxating patella at 4 or 5 mos. I can't remember but it did not luxate on its own but the vet could luxate the patella... again we held off and at 18 mos his patellas were firmly where they should be and he got his clearance.... 
Now if the patella was luxating on its own and on a regular basis we would have had it repaired, his littermate needed a patella repaired but I do tend to think that some vets are a little overzealous with young pups.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Penny's Mom said:


> There's a lot that I don't say because I don't want to be jumped on.
> 
> For instance: I found a breeder, local to me, who is a hobby breeder. One litter every couple of years. Participates in local, casual shows and fairs. Encourages kids. She also runs a quality boarding facility.
> 
> ...


I learned it the hard way as you did. But I am also glad it happened because I now know where everyone is coming from and I know who I can have a conversation with even if we disagree and who to ignore.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Shalva said:


> We also don't rush to ortho stuff we always hold off... our connor was diagnosed as dysplastic at 5 mos. I called my breeder in a panic who said that you can't really see hips at 5 mos in an xray because they aren't really calcified yet... and not to panic... Connor is OFA good and is now almost 12 (in a few weeks)
> 
> Our Cuinn was diagnosed with a luxating patella at 4 or 5 mos. I can't remember but it did not luxate on its own but the vet could luxate the patella... again we held off and at 18 mos his patellas were firmly where they should be and he got his clearance....
> Now if the patella was luxating on its own and on a regular basis we would have had it repaired, his littermate needed a patella repaired but I do tend to think that some vets are a little overzealous with young pups.



What types of symptoms did they have when they were diagnosed? And at what age are the hips calcified?


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Laurie said:


> I currently have 4 Goldens. Three of them are from BYBs. My puppy is from a breeder who does all clearances.
> 
> As I was sitting on the deck this morning, I was watching my 12 year old, who was diagnosed with cancer 14 months ago, roll around on the grass enjoying the coolness of the early morning air. My two 3.5 year olds were lying in the backyard, resting up for their agility party this evening.
> 
> ...


So so sorry. I really hope it is not HD. A bit early to tell. A bit early even for GlycoFlex or other similar vitamins. We've had all our dogs on it starting with GlycoFlex I thru stage III. It has been so long since we had a puppy in the house but I believe we started at 1 years of age - I have not yet checked with our vet. Check with your vet as far as available vitamins that you can start your puppy on; ask for several alternatives and then make your decision from there.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Penny's Mom said:


> There's a lot that I don't say because I don't want to be jumped on.
> 
> For instance: I found a breeder, local to me, who is a hobby breeder. One litter every couple of years. Participates in local, casual shows and fairs. Encourages kids. She also runs a quality boarding facility.
> 
> ...


Exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

It's one thing if you have to force a patella out to call it luxating. My Sally had a patella that couldn't go back in. Her previous owner noticed it around four months of age. We diagnosed it with rads at six months. In her case, I truly believe early intervention was the answer. Mine get glucosamine and fish oil form the start. I also do not feed LB anything. Can't argue with five sets of clear elbows and hips...


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> It's one thing if you have to force a patella out to call it luxating. My Sally had a patella that couldn't go back in. Her previous owner noticed it around four months of age. We diagnosed it with rads at six months. In her case, I truly believe early intervention was the answer.


Cuinns was not forced but luxated easily with slight pressure but went back in..his breeder suggested we have it looked at when her bitches patellas began luxating on their own, my boys hadn't luxated on its own but it did luxate easily not with force but I agree his littermate had a luxating patella that was going in and out on its own and she was hitching... her patella was surgically repaired quite young by the breeder (she was the pick bitch that the breeder kept) so I agree with you that early intervention in that situaiton was necessary... that having been said I prefer to take a very cautious approach... I have had to many vets overstep their area of expertise and wade into areas that they are not trained or experienced in and there is the potential for a lot of damage.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I find myself thanking almost every post in this thread because I can understand where both sides are coming from. 16 years ago I would have bought a pup out of the newspaper because I did not know better. I got a mixed breed puppy out of the newspaper and paid only $150 for him because I did not want to spend $300 for a purebred. I got Mercy for more than 10 times that much. After purchasing my mixed breed pup I learned over time and many years how to be a responsible dog owner. I learned the hard way. Over the years I learned about reputable breeders and what to look for. Now, I feel strongly about purchasing from a reputable breeder. I would not purchase from anyone but. You still have to watch out for in between breeders, which I call substandard breeders. They do the clearances and put their dogs on k9data, but they lack champion lines. I almost made that mistake less than a year ago. God told me I could do better. I certainly place no blame on people who purchased from a backyard breeder. I understand that they simply wanted a pet and/or may feel intimidated by show dog breeders. I used to be myself. Even though I feel that some reputable show dog breeders are over the top, I prefer to purchase from them since their Goldens are of the highest quality. I know that I will likely have a wonderful loving pet that also has all of the wonderful traits that a Golden should have.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Laurie, I'm really sorry you have this concern and worry with little Lexx. I hope and pray your vet is wrong and he is perfectly fine.:crossfing If not, he's got a great family and doting parents to make sure he's as comfortable, happy and healthy as possible. (((HUGS)))


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> You still have to watch out for in between breeders, which I call substandard breeders. They do the clearances and put their dogs on k9data, but they lack champion lines.


But even those substandard breeders are GOOD and experienced with the breed, health, and raising up puppies - and I'd encourage people to buy from them vs going to a backyard breeder. 

At minimum - the breeders NEED to be breeding for health. This means doing all of the clearances. I hope they are also breeding for temperament and trainability. And then of course, breeding to standard.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

kwhit said:


> Breaks your heart every day, doesn't it?
> 
> One time Chance and I were walking at a local lake and we walked quite a ways, more than we usually did. He was so excited with all the smells and watching the ducks in the water that he pushed himself too far. I should have been more aware, but I was so happy that he was having such a good time.
> 
> Well, about half way back he just laid down and held his leg up for me to massage it. He was squinting his eyes from the pain. He had been so happy...I just sat down next to him and started crying while I massaged his elbow. I must have massaged him for at least 20 minutes before he was able to start walking again...


How sad and heartbreaking:bawling:. But at the same time, I am sure Chance feels really loved by his mommy as he appreciates your leg messages.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Laurie said:


> I currently have 4 Goldens. Three of them are from BYBs. My puppy is from a breeder who does all clearances.
> 
> As I was sitting on the deck this morning, I was watching my 12 year old, who was diagnosed with cancer 14 months ago, roll around on the grass enjoying the coolness of the early morning air. My two 3.5 year olds were lying in the backyard, resting up for their agility party this evening.
> 
> ...


What's an agility party?


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

MercyMom said:


> What's an agility party?


 
It's just a big party for the dogs and their parents!! We're having a barbeque and then we will set up agility courses for the dogs to run. More of a fun day for everyone involved. We try to have one every month or every second month.


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## AlanK (Jun 28, 2008)

Laurie said:


> It's just a big party for the dogs and their parents!! We're having a barbeque and then we will set up agility courses for the dogs to run. More of a fun day for everyone involved. We try to have one every month or every second month.


 Wow ...thats way cool.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Laurie said:


> Meanwhile, I was on the deck, cradling my 3 month old puppy with tears streaming down my face as I recall over and over in my head, the vet's words from 2 days ago. "He definitely has less muscle mass in his left leg. We will have to monitor him over the next few months as hip dysplasia is a concern.


Oh no poor Lexxington! I'm sorry my dear!  Praying that he will be all right.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> I'd say a majority of the rescues are from BYBs with a handful being from hardcore/high volume


That is a shame. But it's a numbers game . And majority always takes it.


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## Eli's Momma :) (Aug 10, 2012)

I understand exactly what you are saying! I bought my golden retriever from a breeder in Ocala for $500 as well both parents are AKC and i did recieve papers and everything for him! I am absolutely obssessed with him and he is obssessed with me as well. I always see on here everyone talking about breeders but i am honestly young and i dont have over $600 to spend on a puppy so i was over joyed when i found Eli's breeder and was very pleased with her keeping in touch with me until we went and picked Eli up. Now we are currently looking for another male golden retriever puppy in Florida but we have had no luck finding one uner $1000, so the search continues!!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Over and over in the last few weeks I've read posts defending the idea of getting a dog from a breeder who isn't truly meticulous about doing everything possible to give the dog the best possible shot at a long healthy life.

Over and over I've read the justification that because there are no guarantees, it's OK to take a gamble on a dog from a less-than-ideal breeder. Usually this justification is paired with the concept that the dog is cheaper and everybody has a right to own a Golden.

You have the legal right to purchase whatever dog you choose, but it's ethically indefensible to gamble with a dog's health when you don't have to. There are no guarantees, but there are proven ways of reducing the risks with a breeding, and breeders who don't take advantage of them are uneducated at best and unethical at worst. You shouldn't breed Goldens without hip, elbow, heart, and eye clearances on the parents, and you shouldn't buy from those who do. If you want to discuss how far back those clearances need to go or how much the parents need to prove themselves, I think you have a leg to stand on, but it's indefensible to sit and rationalize away the need for whatever clearance because a clearance isn't a guarantee.

Yes, cleared dogs still have problems. Yes, uncleared dogs sometimes live long, healthy lives. That doesn't change the fact that you can cut the risks of suffering in half or better for your dog by buying from a breeder who does clearances properly. You can rationalize up and down about it, but there's a mountain of evidence that a one-generation clearance cuts the risk in half and multi-generational clearances even more. You tell me whether it's worth the $800 price difference to cut your dog's risk of dysplasia in half. If I offered you $800 in exchange for doubling your dog's risk of dysplasia, would you take it? 

I don't care how much you make. The basic fact is that if you can afford even minimal vet care, a topspot treatment, and a heartworm pill each month, you can afford to wait and save up for the real cost of a dog with every advantage for a long, healthy life. In fact, clearances end up saving more than they cost in the long run since they dramatically cut the risk of expensive health problems. If you can't afford the extra upfront cost, you certainly can't afford the increased risk of degenerative joint disease.

If you've already bought a dog from a less-than-ideal breeding, it's in the past, and I have no interest in putting you or your dog down. I'm rooting for your dog to get lucky even though his odds aren't as good as they could have been. He's going to do his best to be your best dog no matter what his breeder did or didn't do, and he didn't make any of the choices involved in his birth. I don't think your dog is worth more or less than any other dog on the forum.

However, a good dog does not vindicate bad breeding practices. Skipping clearances and funding those who do is playing fast and loose with the suffering of dogs. I love dogs way, way too much to sit down and shut up so somebody can feel better about that. If you don't have the money, you save the money. The difference in cost is peanuts compared to the cost of owning a dog, particularly one with the elevated risk of health problems that comes from skipped clearances. I don't care if you make $1000 a month or $5000 a month. A properly bred dog is a cheaper dog in the long run anyway. 

So when you sit down to type a post defending the idea of skipping clearances so you can pay less up front, please think twice. I don't care what breeders you've gone to in the past. There's no benefit in berating you for it, and I certainly don't check clearance or pedigree information when I respond to threads about health and training issues or when I ooh and ahh over pictures and stories about everybody's Golden Retrievers and mixes. I do care if you encourage other people to think it's OK to buy from uncleared breedings in the future. It's a bad financial decision to buy a dog from an uncleared breeding, but the real issue is that even if money weren't part of the equation at all, a Golden Retriever simply deserves the best shot you can give him at a sound body and a long life.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Well said Tippykayak


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

SheetsSM said:


> I'd say a majority of the rescues are from BYBs with a handful being from hardcore/high volume mills.


I just wanted to pull out this part of your quote in order to highlight that one of the non-negotiable qualities of a good breeder is that he or she will always take a dog back for any reason. Typically, there's a clause in the contract you sign that says that you must give the dog back if you find yourself unable to take care of it.

If a good breeder's dog has ended up in a shelter, it's because the client violated the contract and the breeder doesn't know about it.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Tippy, if I could hit the 'thank you' button 100 times for this post, I would. 





tippykayak said:


> Over and over in the last few weeks I've read posts defending the idea of getting a dog from a breeder who isn't truly meticulous about doing everything possible to give the dog the best possible shot at a long healthy life.
> 
> Over and over I've read the justification that because there are no guarantees, it's OK to take a gamble on a dog from a less-than-ideal breeder. Usually this justification is paired with the concept that the dog is cheaper and everybody has a right to own a Golden.
> 
> ...


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> If a good breeder's dog has ended up in a shelter, it's because the client violated the contract and the breeder doesn't know about it.


And of course that never happens.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> And of course that never happens.


I'm sure it happens, but what's your point? Am I wrong that all good breeders do accept responsibility for the full lifetime of every dog they produce?


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

I did things backwards I guess. As I've said before we've always only rescued adult dogs before so I decided I wanted to finally have a puppy. I found and paid for a beautiful lil GR puppy then several days later while looking for pictures of GR puppies online I came across this forum. Now I have read all the threads about clearances ect but I honestly had no idea about them prior to choosing a puppy. Bentley will be coming home in 2d 16h 57m and I couldn't be more excited!
Since we've always rescued abused dogs we never knew what we were getting and some were more work than others but I can truly say I wouldn't have missed out of having a single one of them! Now that I know about hips, eyes, elbows ect I am praying Bentley does well. That's all I can do.
And for the record, I would never jump down anyone's back in these forums so I ask for the same respect. Thank you.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I'm sure it happens, but what's your point? Am I wrong that all good breeders do accept responsibility for the full lifetime of every dog they produce?


I'm just being realistic. Of course they have contracts stating such. But realistically what owner is going to give their dog back to the breeder after they have raised them for several years because they developed a disease? That would be like giving up your child.

And quit honestly those so called contract are what turns a lot of people off.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I'm just being realistic. Of course they have contracts stating such. But realistically what owner is going to give their dog back to the breeder after they have raised them for several years because they developed a disease? That would be like giving up your child.


What contract says you must do this? Breeders only want to keep their pups out of shelters and advertised in Craigslist ads if the owner can't keep them. You don't have to give a dog back because it's sick.

If you're saying the owner would rather rehome the dog to a family member or a friend, I'm sure that can be worked out.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I'm just being realistic. Of course they have contracts stating such. But realistically what owner is going to give their dog back to the breeder after they have raised them for several years because they developed a disease? That would be like giving up your child.
> 
> And quit honestly those so called contract are what turns a lot of people off.


The contract would simply state that if you had to give the dog up, you must give it to the breeder rather than to a pound or shelter. It does happen because of family or financial situations, not so often because the dog develops an illness. There are certainly people who will dump a dog once it's sick too, though.

How on earth is it a turnoff that the breeder wants the dog back if you can't take care of it?


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

tippykayak said:


> I'm sure it happens, but what's your point? Am I wrong that all good breeders do accept responsibility for the full lifetime of every dog they produce?


I know Lucky could have gone back to his breeder in a second if we could for some reason not keep him. He would even board the owners of his puppies for no cost. He said it was like a kid sleeping over at grandma and grandpa's while mom and dad went on vacation together 

I would take any of Cozy's puppies back in second and it says so in the contract the new owners signed. One woman I sold to went to several other breeders and even rescues but they would not let her adopt due to her age (+70). Quantus is her life. She even has her will set up for from a trust for him if she passes before he does. He comes back to me and is to stay with me the rest of his days .


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> The contract would simply state that if you had to give the dog up, you must give it to the breeder rather than to a pound or shelter. It does happen because of family or financial situations, not so often because the dog develops an illness. There are certainly people who will dump a dog once it's sick too, though.
> 
> How on earth is it a turnoff that the breeder wants the dog back if you can't take care of it?


I wasn't talking about the financial nature of it , I was talking about the health guarantee. It looks good in writing when you purchase but let's be honest how many members on here will return their golden after raising it for even a year? 

Not a turn off for helping people in need. And I am not one to paint with a broad brush because in reality I know All breeders are not created equal. But some of the restrictions I have read are a turn off . Heck there was even a member on here (won't mention names) that was frantic of getting her puppy taken back because she wasn't able to get a vaccine before the date listed on the contract.
I don't need someone else to help raise my kids. I already have a mother in law


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

*Just pulled together conservation*



tippykayak said:


> I just wanted to pull out this part of your quote in order to highlight that one of the non-negotiable qualities of a good breeder is that he or she will always take a dog back for any reason. Typically, there's a clause in the contract you sign that says that you must give the dog back if you find yourself unable to take care of it.
> 
> If a good breeder's dog has ended up in a shelter, it's because the client violated the contract and the breeder doesn't know about it.





Wyatt's mommy said:


> And of course that never happens.





tippykayak said:


> I'm sure it happens, but what's your point? Am I wrong that all good breeders do accept responsibility for the full lifetime of every dog they produce?





Wyatt's mommy said:


> I'm just being realistic. Of course they have contracts stating such. But realistically what owner is going to give their dog back to the breeder after they have raised them for several years because they developed a disease? That would be like giving up your child.
> 
> And quit honestly those so called contract are what turns a lot of people off.


Most reputable breeders will at least give the amount of the dog back if the sickness is due to genetic defect if the person does not want to give the puppy back.

Look at Shalva- She has sent thousands of dollars on Bing who was returned to her do to illness. Most people could never afford to pay for everything she has for him. It would have been easier and far cheaper to put him down but she stood behind her dog and loves him to death. I doubt any BYB would have done the same thing 



Vhuynh2 said:


> What contract says you must do this? Breeders only want to keep their pups out of shelters and advertised in Craigslist ads if the owner can't keep them. You don't have to give a dog back because it's sick.
> 
> If you're saying the owner would rather rehome the dog to a family member or a friend, I'm sure that can be worked out.





tippykayak said:


> The contract would simply state that if you had to give the dog up, you must give it to the breeder rather than to a pound or shelter. It does happen because of family or financial situations, not so often because the dog develops an illness. There are certainly people who will dump a dog once it's sick too, though.
> 
> How on earth is it a turnoff that the breeder wants the dog back if you can't take care of it?


 The point being that reputable breeders don't want their puppies going to just anyone. If the person can not keep the dog for want ever reason they want the dog back. The same cannot be said for most BYB's.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I don't think most contracts ask for the dog back but you can return the dog if you wish and in either case (according to my contract) you will get a partial or full refund. This is the case if someone wants to return a puppy for any reason.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

MikaTallulah said:


> Most reputable breeders will at least give the amount of the dog back if the sickness is due to genetic defect if the person does not want to give the puppy back.
> 
> Look at Shalva- She has sent thousands of dollars on Bing who was returned to her do to illness. Most people could never afford to pay for everything she has for him. It would have been easier and far cheaper to put him down but she stood behind her dog and loves him to death. I doubt any BYB would have done the same thing
> 
> ...


"Most" is the key word in your post in which I agree.

I applaud Shalva as I know how expensive it can be. Since bad health "mostly" doesn't happen in dogs from a reputable as some believe.

Alan asked that this not be a debate about byb's so I will respect his wishes.

Hopefully others can post where they got their fu r babies without being attacked on this confession thread.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Heck there was even a member on here (won't mention names) that was frantic of getting her puppy taken back because she wasn't able to get a vaccine before the date listed on the contract.


And that is why you have to research your a** off when looking for a breeder. There are as many variations in contracts as there are responsible breeders. This is one of the many reasons why people should breeder search and not puppy search. If less people were in the "I want it NOW" frame of mind, the decision on a breeder would be a much longer and in depth process. Hopefully people's concerns about certain aspects of a contract would be alleviated because of _open and honest_ conversations with their chosen breeder. If you don't feel comfortable with a certain condition that's in the contract and the breeder won't budge, move on.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> And that is why you have to research your a** off when looking for a breeder. There are as many variations in contracts as there are responsible breeders. This is one of the many reasons why people should breeder search and not puppy search. If less people were in the "I want it NOW" frame of mind, the decision on a breeder would be a much longer and in depth process. Hopefully people's concerns about certain aspects of a contract would be alleviated because of _open and honest_ conversations with their chosen breeder. If you don't feel comfortable with a certain condition that's in the contract and the breeder won't budge, move on.


It really shoudn't have to be that hard. It's all about control IMHO.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Bentleysmom said:


> Since we've always rescued abused dogs we never knew what we were getting and some were more work than others but I can truly say I wouldn't have missed out of having a single one of them! Now that I know about hips, eyes, elbows ect I am praying Bentley does well. That's all I can do.
> And for the record, I would never jump down anyone's back in these forums so I ask for the same respect. Thank you.



I have a lot of respect for good breeding practices. Please do not worry about Bentley. You already have lots of experience with rescue dogs and I applaud you for it. We live in VA and back in 1991 we went way to California to this reputable breeder. Our Trooper had the most exemplary pedigree and clearances. He developed pettite mal seizures at age of 6, they developed into grand mal seizures and we lost Troopie at almost 14. He passed away May 12, 20005 and licked my hand with his last breath.

I think that the most important in raising a puppy is preventive care. Don't let them jump on concrete, give them GlycoFlex (that's what we use) or any equivalent as early as your vet recommends; we also give Mannatech as antioxidant and Canine ProOmega. But the most important thing you can give them is your love. 

Another thing you can do, is develop a positive relationship with your breeder. Make sure you keep them posted not only about bad experiences but also good experiences. That way you can have positive influence on them as well as your puppy. 

There are many things I learned on this forum and also shared them with Rose's breeder. Since none of our previous dogs had an allergy reaction to the second set of shots but poor Charlie on this forum did, I informed her of it and asked her to inform the rest of the littler owners. She not only did that but she included that in her contract - not as a "you must do this" but as in "I strongly recommend to check with your vet regarding possible allergies, ask your vet for the appropriate dosage of Benadryl and time to administer". 

I wish more people would join this Forum, learn and pass it on - no matter how much experience we think we have we still learn a trick or two


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I wasn't talking about the financial nature of it , I was talking about the health guarantee. It looks good in writing when you purchase but let's be honest how many members on here will return their golden after raising it for even a year?
> 
> Not a turn off for helping people in need. And I am not one to paint with a broad brush because in reality I know All breeders are not created equal. But some of the restrictions I have read are a turn off . Heck there was even a member on here (won't mention names) that was frantic of getting her puppy taken back because she wasn't able to get a vaccine before the date listed on the contract.
> I don't need someone else to help raise my kids. I already have a mother in law


A good breeder won't make the return of the GR a requirement in order to honor a health guarantee if provided.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> "Most" is the key word in your post in which I agree.
> 
> I applaud Shalva as I know how expensive it can be. Since bad health "mostly" doesn't happen in dogs from a reputable as some believe.
> 
> ...


I would have said ALL reputable breeders but their will always be 1 person who doesn't do what they should.

I have not attacked any person directly here on the forum about where they got their puppy nor do I intend too. If they already have their puppy it is to late anyway. The puppy is already here and it is not the puppies fault.

Buddy did not ask to be born and have his previous owner that is the card he got dealt. That is why my Golden Friend Buddy Got Wiser and now lives with me. Goldwin means Golden Friend. The best thing he ever did for himself was be skinny and chew himself raw- If he had not done that I never would have gotten his previous owner to give him to me. 

Buddy's breeder (Amish country, PA) has no business breeding dog's especially since they sell to just anyone who has the cash in their hands. His previous owner was an alcoholic who would leave the house for a minimum of 16 hours a day and could not even care for himself. He also probably hit Buddy numerous times while drunk and doesn't even remember doing it. I could do on and on but won't. This man should not even have a fish or a house plant let alone a dog.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> A good breeder won't make the return of the GR a requirement in order to honor a health guarantee if provided.


Yes I know some will just refund your money.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I wasn't talking about the financial nature of it , I was talking about the health guarantee. It looks good in writing when you purchase but let's be honest how many members on here will return their golden after raising it for even a year?
> 
> Not a turn off for helping people in need. And I am not one to paint with a broad brush because in reality I know All breeders are not created equal. But some of the restrictions I have read are a turn off . Heck there was even a member on here (won't mention names) that was frantic of getting her puppy taken back because she wasn't able to get a vaccine before the date listed on the contract.
> I don't need someone else to help raise my kids. I already have a mother in law


I would not have had a problem myself with this because my furrbutts go to the vet the same day I get them . This is something the person should have discussed with the breeder and researched before they bought the puppy. 

I personally would not go to a breeder than says dog must only be feed a raw diet and limited vaccines. 

I buy the breeder not the puppy first


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

MikaTallulah said:


> I would have said ALL reputable breeders but their will always be 1 person who doesn't do what they should.
> 
> I have not attacked any person directly here on the forum about where they got their puppy nor do I intend too. If they already have their puppy it is to late anyway. The puppy is already here and it is not the puppies fault.
> 
> ...



How sad for Buddy Abuse makes me sick to my stomach. I turned in a neighbor because he would chain up his dog in the hot sun without any water all day.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> It really shoudn't have to be that hard. It's all about control IMHO.


And that's where it's all about perception. You think of it as control and the breeder thinks of it as ensuring that their puppies continue to get the care that was given to them from the time of and before their conception. 

It took me well over 5 years to find the Dane breeder I will purchase from next if I ever get another one. Her contract states the the puppy will never be crated for longer than 4 hours, that it will never be left alone for longer than 4 hours, you need a letter from your vet stating that they know how to treat gastric torsion and perform a gastropexy. She will/does call references and also your vet to confirm past care of dogs and to validate the letter. Do I think it's extreme...nope. These are just a few of the things that she wants for her puppies. Would some feel overwhelmed by her stipulations...of course and those people are free to look else where.

So, IMO, contracts are not about control at all. They're the breeders way of speaking for the puppies that cannot speak for themselves.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

MikaTallulah said:


> I would not have had a problem myself with this because my furrbutts go to the vet the same day I get them . This is something the person should have discussed with the breeder and researched before they bought the puppy.
> 
> I personally would not go to a breeder than says dog must only be feed a raw diet and limited vaccines.
> 
> I buy the breeder not the puppy first


And I woudn't go to one that said I would have to wait until the dog is 18 months before I can neuter him you see how many variations of controlling issues? No thanks.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> And that's where it's all about perception. You think of it as control and the breeder thinks of it as ensuring that their puppies continue to get the care that was given to them from the time of and before their conception.
> 
> It took me well over 5 years to find the Dane breeder I will purchase from next if I ever get another one. Her contract states the the puppy will never be crated for longer than 4 hours, that it will never be left alone for longer than 4 hours, you need a letter from your vet stating that they know how to treat gastric torsion and perform a gastropexy. She will/does call references and also your vet to confirm past care of dogs and to validate the letter. Do I think it's extreme...nope. These are just a few of the things that she wants for her puppies. Would some feel overwhelmed by her stipulations...of course and those people are free to look else where.
> 
> So, IMO, contracts are not about control at all. They're the breeders way of speaking for the puppies that cannot speak for themselves.


And I agree and that IS why a lot of people look elsewhere.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> How sad for Buddy Abuse makes me sick to my stomach. I turned in a neighbor because he would chain up his dog in the hot sun without any water all day.


I have reported his previous owner several times but it never sticks  He still has a lab and bull terrier mix. The dogs are in good physical condition so I can get him to give the dogs up. His previous dog's were taken away but they gave them back to him because they "better off with him than us killing them" according to the humane officer. :doh:

FYI- It is my uncle


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> And I agree and that IS why a lot of people look elsewhere.


Absolutely, and in doing so they need not compromise the health of the dogs being bred or the health of those being produced.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> Absolutely, and in doing so they need not compromise the health of the dogs being bred or the health of those being produced.


And when we can find that magic pill I'm on board.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I wasn't talking about the financial nature of it , I was talking about the health guarantee.


I wasn't talking about a health guarantee at all, so why are you? I was noting the comment that said that there were plenty of BYB, HVB, and mill dogs in shelters and pointing out that a good breeder's dog would never end up there unless a client did it against the breeder's express wishes and against the language of a contract.

It looks good in writing when you purchase but let's be honest how many members on here will return their golden after raising it for even a year? 



Wyatt's mommy said:


> But some of the restrictions I have read are a turn off


Again, I don't see why you brought up contract restrictions or health guarantees. The issue is that good breeders' dogs don't end up in shelters if the breeder can possibly prevent it. And if one did, any breeder worth her salt would go and get the dog as soon as she found out.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

MikaTallulah said:


> I have reported his previous owner several times but it never sticks  He still has a lab and bull terrier mix. The dogs are in good physical condition so I can get him to give the dogs up. His previous dog's were taken away but they gave them back to him because they "better off with him than us killing them" according to the humane officer. :doh:
> 
> FYI- It is my uncle


Those dogs are lucky they have you to keep an eye on them


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> And when we can find that magic pill I'm on board.


You & I both know there is no magic pill, but were making progress in screening hips, elbows, hearts, eyes (annually)...clearances have continued to evolve since the birth of your Cody.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I wasn't talking about a health guarantee at all, so why are you? I was noting the comment that said that there were plenty of BYB, HVB, and mill dogs in shelters and pointing out that a good breeder's dog would never end up there unless a client did it against the breeder's express wishes and against the language of a contract.
> 
> It looks good in writing when you purchase but let's be honest how many members on here will return their golden after raising it for even a year?
> 
> ...


I am not going to argue with you. The reality is it does happen.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> And when we can find that magic pill I'm on board.


I think something that can cut more than half the risk of DJD is pretty magical.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> You & I both know there is no magic pill, but were making progress in screening hips, elbows, hearts, eyes (annually)...clearances have continued to evolve since the birth of your Cody.


There will never be a magic pill unfortunately.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I am not going to argue with you. The reality is it does happen.


Of course it does. Owners lie to breeders and vets all the time. Dogs get lost or given up without the breeder being notified, despite the breeder's best efforts to write a tight contract. The question (which I raised and you diverted into health guarantees and contract control issues) is whether you give your money to somebody who washes her hands of a dog once he leaves the property or who will stand up for that dog his whole life.

I cannot see your motivation for defending anything but tiptop breeding practices.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

kwhit said:


> And that's where it's all about perception. You think of it as control and the breeder thinks of it as ensuring that their puppies continue to get the care that was given to them from the time of and before their conception.....So, IMO, contracts are not about control at all. They're the breeders way of speaking for the puppies that cannot speak for themselves.


One of the "reputable breeders" in VA has a clause that you should give this vitamin NuVet to the puppy. Sorry I am not experienced with it and I shall not give my Rose ANYTHING I don't know about. 

And I am going on a limb here and I know I will make *more* enemies - the breeders of show dogs are breeding the smarts out of that dog. Sorry. IMHO! We are more into hunting, skeet shooting and retrieving dogs.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Those dogs are lucky they have you to keep an eye on them


Is it wrong of me to wish the dogs had something wrong with them so I could get them away from him? Or that they do ran away? All of Buddy's escapes were fruitless since everyone in the trailer park knew who they belonged too.

He also has a neighbor now reporting on him to me about the dogs


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

For the record, if people want to "confess" that they bought a dog from a less-than-ideal breeder, I think it would be pretty shameful to attack them for it. You should be able to tell your stories freely and without fear of retribution. I'm only here to stand up for the practices that reduce the risk of suffering to Golden Retrievers, not to attack anybody for how they got their dog.

For what it's worth, my first dog was from a BYB. Some family friends had two very nice pet Goldens, and they put them together. They charged around $300 because the litter had papers. He and several others from his litter had to have their shoulders surgically repaired at relatively young ages (OCD, I think), and most died fairly young (under 10). My dog made it to 7 before being euthanized due to an unspecified cancer (probably hemangiosarcoma).

He's why I love the breed, and he was the truest of friends to me as an awkward, withdrawn little kid. I would never give up the experience of having and loving that dog, but I will _never_ defend the type of breeding practices that produced him. The fact that I don't believe anybody should ever buy a dog from that kind of breeding doesn't make him less of an amazing, wonderful dog. It doesn't make his friendship less valuable or call his loyalty into question. It _does_ mean he was at unnecessarily high risks for painful, life-shortening conditions. Good breeders work on structure and longevity. Nowadays, there are four bare minimum clearances that help them do that. 

I'm against breeding practices that gamble with dogs' health, not against anybody's dog.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> One of the "reputable breeders" in VA has a clause that you should give this vitamin NuVet to the puppy.


No responsible breeder pushes NuVet. It's a snake oil and a pyramid scheme. I'd be very surprised to find out that this person you're calling "reputable" is actually a serious competitor in any venue.



Claudia M said:


> And I am going on a limb here and I know I will make *more* enemies - the breeders of show dogs are breeding the smarts out of that dog. Sorry. IMHO! We are more into hunting, skeet shooting and retrieving dogs.


Any evidence for that claim? Or just something you have a humble opinion on without any data?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Of course it does. Owners lie to breeders and vets all the time. Dogs get lost or given up without the breeder being notified, despite the breeder's best efforts to write a tight contract. The question (which I raised and you diverted into health guarantees and contract control issues) is whether you give your money to somebody who washes her hands of a dog once he leaves the property or who will stand up for that dog his whole life.
> 
> I cannot see your motivation for defending anything but tiptop breeding practices.



Personally me? I don't need help with my dog once they come into my life. But if you need to know. Wyatt see's his parents and breeder a couple times a year.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> For the record, if people want to "confess" that they bought a dog from a less-than-ideal breeder, I think it would be pretty shameful to attack them for it. You should be able to tell your stories freely and without fear of retribution. I'm only here to stand up for the practices that reduce the risk of suffering to Golden Retrievers, not to attack anybody for how they got their dog.
> 
> For what it's worth, my first dog was from a BYB. Some family friends had two very nice pet Goldens, and they put them together. They charged around $300 because the litter had papers. He and several others from his litter had to have their shoulders surgically repaired at relatively young ages (OCD, I think), and most died fairly young (under 10). My dog made it to 7 before being euthanized due to an unspecified cancer (probably hemangiosarcoma).
> 
> ...


I've been trying for several days to put in words how I feel about this subject. Tippy has done it for me. Our Rusty was from a byb. He was nowhere near the physical standard of a golden and had a myriad of health conditions all of his years. But he was a walking testament to what I consider true golden temperament. For 12 1/2 years we loved and cherished him. Do I regret buying him from that farm over 13 years ago? Never. Would I ever purchase a dog from such a place or encourage anyone else to do so? Not ever.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Interesting thread with all kinds of passion on all sides...I have to say when Cookie came into my life, sight unseen, my purchase based on pedigree,, clearances,and potential, I fell in love with her the minute I saw her at the Logan airport. It was at least a month before I checked her over, and both my husband and I looked at each other and said, "Who cares" because we were in love with her. Of course, she ended up having all clearances (in part due to the generations of clearances behind her). I have to disagree that conformation dogs don't have brains. Every dog I have owned or bred has come from multipurpose lines. My first golden was from mostly conformation lines and EASILY got a CDX. And I stand behind my dogs. Whether it is taking the dog back, giving money back, etc.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Claudia M said:


> One of the "reputable breeders" in VA has a clause that you should give this vitamin NuVet to the puppy. Sorry I am not experienced with it and I shall not give my Rose ANYTHING I don't know about.
> 
> And I am going on a limb here and I know I will make *more* enemies - the breeders of show dogs are breeding the smarts out of that dog. Sorry. IMHO! We are more into hunting, skeet shooting and retrieving dogs.


No "reputable" breeder is going to make NuVet supplement a part of their contract - it is a pyramid scheme. 
As to breeding the smarts out of "show dogs" take a look at my Keeper in my signature. You have to go back more than 4 generations to find anything more than a CD behind any of the dogs. I truly believe that it is unfair to assume a dog can not do something without actually seeing for a fact it can not. As for skeet shooting - she never did quite get the hang of that.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> And I am going on a limb here and I know I will make *more* enemies - the breeders of show dogs are breeding the smarts out of that dog. Sorry. IMHO! We are more into hunting, skeet shooting and retrieving dogs.


Really? Tell that to hotel4dog's Tito.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> No responsible breeder pushes NuVet. It's a snake oil and a pyramid scheme. I'd be very surprised to find out that this person you're calling "reputable" is actually a serious competitor in any venue.
> 
> 
> 
> Any evidence for that claim? Or just something you have a humble opinion on without any data?


 tippy - it is my and my husbands's experience over the last 30+ years. 

As I said my hubby is avid skeet shooter and I will not mention titles won as I would certainly divulge identity and also field trials. IMHO the dogs used as obedience dogs (and don't get me wrong - that is a GR ) and in puppy kinder-gardens loose that outdoor sense and experience. So we end up breeding dogs for the prissy moms and show off dads who have never stepped a foot in the outdoors hunting life.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> IMHO the dogs used as obedience dogs (and don't get me wrong - that is a GR ) and in puppy kinder-gardens loose that outdoor sense and experience.


Say what? 

ETA - I'm afraid of guns and absolutely will not touch even an unloaded one, so I guess I'm the ultimate prissy mom. My boy likes me anyway.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> So we end up breeding dogs for the prissy moms and show off dads who have never stepped a foot in the outdoors hunting life.


Prissy Mom here! :wave: 

Don't like hunting and despise camping. Makes me less of an owner, huh? Hmmmmmm...don't think so. I do go outdoors on occasion, though.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Claudia M said:


> IMHO the dogs used as obedience dogs (and don't get me wrong - that is a GR ) and in puppy kinder-gardens loose that outdoor sense and experience. So we end up breeding dogs for the prissy moms and show off dads who have never stepped a foot in the outdoors hunting life.



That's as true as the statement - "Field dogs are all out of the standard, dark red and extremely hyper"
And we ALL know that is not true.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

AmbikaGR said:


> That's as true as the statement - "Field dogs are all out of the standard, dark red and extremely hyper"
> And we ALL know that is not true.


It actually is very true, right? 

This is a prissy CH show dog owned by a friend of mine. As you can see, no smarts.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> tippy - it is my and my husbands's experience over the last 30+ years.
> 
> As I said my hubby is avid skeet shooter and I will not mention titles won as I would certainly divulge identity and also field trials. IMHO the dogs used as obedience dogs (and don't get me wrong - that is a GR ) and in puppy kinder-gardens loose that outdoor sense and experience. So we end up breeding dogs for the prissy moms and show off dads who have never stepped a foot in the outdoors hunting life.


I don't think I understand what you are saying. Maybe I'm a bit tired from training my pup who is a Tito son. Tito by the way is a breed champion, has a UDX, a junior and senior hunt test title and many other titles before and after his name. One of his sons, my pup, Tugg is 8 months old, a very nice looking, very smart and extremely birdy dog. My puppy is retrieving, heeling, learning very quickly all the levels of obedience including utility exercises. We are also learning rally, and have just signed up for a beginning agility class. If I was so inclined I am very very sure he would be a fantastic field dog. Maybe we will get to that when we find some spare time.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Wow, I am trying to decide if mine are prissy show dogs or ugly working title dogs. What a narrow view... Or maybe they are BYB dogs that I bred myself. I embrace ALL Goldens, don't care where they came from.... I, however, will never condone a breeder that doesn't do their homework.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I am so working on breeding the smarts out my dogs... After Mantha who has a Can Ch and 10 AKC points.... We are working on her CD. She is 2/3 of the way there and she has a CGC. She is ten years old. Her brother got his CD and RN at three years. I decided he was not built to jump, so stopped there. What a shallow view. Mantha came to the farmer's market yesterday and many people asked if she was a puppy. It is a testament to her physical appearance, yes, breed ring conformation, that people mistake her for a pup.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

this thread and some of the opinions expressed are absolutely incredible.... statements with no backup... insulting to a whole bunch of peoples dogs including my own.... insulting to breeders who have put a whole lot of time, effort, blood sweat and tears into trying to keep the breed stable and healthy. People advocating irresponsible breeding ... 

I think I need a break I am increasingly getting more and more disgusted the more I read here lately....


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

For those who do not understand what I was trying to say please read what a true Golden Retriever is. Golden Retriever - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Sorry, the previous post was posted before I finished it and during supper time it seems like many people already jumped up and down.

Unfortunately, because of it's eager to please demeanor they have been turned into something else. And not just nowadays, even before our time but to a lesser degree. 

So, if people really care about the breed how about we care about what they really are and allow them to be that.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Claudia M said:


> For those who do not understand what I was trying to say please read what a true Golden Retriever is. Golden Retriever - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Sorry, the previous post was posted before I finished it and during supper time it seems like many people already jumped up and down.
> ...



Still do not agree with your post. They have not been turned into "something else", they have been allowed to become even MORE. There are many folks out there who are concerned about and test breed purpose but also excel at other venues. Goldens do not need to be pigeon-holed into any one purpose.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Ok, for my next puppy I'm gonna ask if the breeder is breeding according to the standard as listed on Wikipedia.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

And I want to add the Wikipedia is not the "expert" source of what a Golden is. I much prefer going to the GRCA or KC for that. :wave:


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

This thread is completely out-of-control. A moderator should consider closing it. But that is only my humble opinion.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Claudia, if you get out to dog clubs, you will see a lot of well-rounded golden retrievers who can do anything that is asked of them. 

My gut feeling as far as why conformation dogs do not have field titles is because the owners do not put in the time and training that is necessary. Even with really fieldy dogs, you can't just take them out into the field and let instinct take over. There is a lot of training involved, as I'm sure you are aware since you say your hub has put field titles on his dogs. 

I know right down to retrieves - a retriever needs to be trained for control and obedience. Otherwise they will have the drive to chase things down, but balk at bringing them back to hand. For obedience training, a dog needs to have a very good retrieve - particularly since they will be retrieving various items (wood, plastic, leather, cloth). This is best trained right from the beginning when they are still puppies. It's easier to teach a retrieve right the first time than to fix a broken one. 

A good source for "what a golden is" should be the actual clubs. You can see pictures of well bred goldens excelling at everything from agility to obedience to companionship to therapy to field. And the reason why so often these dogs are "specialized" and only have titles in one area, I think comes down to the training and the intentions of the owner.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

I have to agree. I'm new here and greatly enjoy the threads but I don't enjoy when things get personal. I understand how conversations get heated about a passionate subject but why can't people just state their opinion and move on?? When it comes down to insulting people and pets I have to take a step back and give this site another think.
I wrote in this thread a couple pages back how I came about getting my puppy so I fully expect to get the wrath. Maybe this site isn't for me after all 



Shalva said:


> this thread and some of the opinions expressed are absolutely incredible....
> I think I need a break I am increasingly getting more and more disgusted the more I read here lately....


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

I admit to not reading this entire novel but I am going to close this one as it is going anywhere at this point and I see way too many "quotes" of other members.


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