# How many litters per year?



## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

I don't think that a breeder should breed a bitch,more than once a yr.I love small breeders that care for one litter,at a time where I know they are kids and the dogs are true housepets and not just breeding machine!.


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

Both of the breeders I got my dogs from only breed once a year as well.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

I personally can't handle more than one litter at a time. And having the two litter this year within a month of the other's going to knew homes helped put me in the hospital. I find it difficult enough as it is with a large litter espcially to spend quality time with each pupper and get a feel for personality traits. That is just me though and we all know I am getting old. LOL

On my girls I try to wait 18 months inbetween breedings sometimes a year depending on waiting lists. There is alot of current thinking about having litters back to back and then waiting a year. The philosphy behind it I think is it is less stress on the mammary glands and cuts down cancer risks. I have just stuck to what I ahve always done.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

I am not for puppy mills, and much of this reminds me of one do too so many breedings being done.

As far as how many breedings of one dog within a year, if one is too look at nature it would be most likely each time a dog would come into heat which is usually twice a year for a dog.
But I do believe no pups should be produced unless there are owners there waiting for them prior to the breeding taking place, and of course the "Code of Ethics" held up for this breeding.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

For an average breeder - a couple a year, max. And preferably not "on the ground" at the same time.

That is TOO difficult......we've been there, once, and once was more than plenty.

BUT, if you're a big operation....like some of the large, highly-respected kennel names are, and have the money and staff to a) take care of your house and life while you're taking care of the dogs; and b) have more staff to help with the dogs, then I can see one litter every few months....so say 4-6 a year.

However, even those kennels don't usually have that many.

The way they handle it is to co-own their potential breeding dogs/bitches with others. The males they have on the property are used for stud. Much of that "work" is done by AI which is shipped around the country and the world. 

Therefore, there are no puppies from that breeding at the "home" location. Yet the stud dog owner may still be a co-owner of the bitch, and therefore the kennel name shows up on the registration, making it appear as though a lot of puppies are born at that kennel.

Females that are bred are often living with the co-owners. So, the widely known and recognized name kennels may actually only have two or three litters on their property in any given year.

Yes...they may help with the whelping of a co-owned bitch, which has been brought to their home/property, but the bitch isn't really "theirs". The primary owner shares in a lot of responsibility for the care of the puppies, as well.

Does this make any sense? I hope so, because I'd like for people to understand that even though you may see a lot of "X" (insert kennel name) dogs out there, it doesn't mean they've been born on the owner of "X" kennel's property.

To me, this is a very smart way to maintain excellence in a large kennel name. And.....it's also a way to "share" the workload, and to mentor those who will carry on with their own kennels.

My primary criteria would be that the person is doing it for the love of the breed....and the dogs. Large or small, the dogs well being, both physical and mental is paramount.

If that can be accomplished by having a lot of litters on the ground in one year, then it's fine. However, I'm not sure that it can be.

Oh....and I disagree with waiting a year between breedings. Canine reproduction specialists feel that it's healthier for the bitch to be bred back to back, with certain limitations, of course.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

My feeling is that golden retrievers, or any breed, for that matter, should not be treated as livestock or as a money making proposition. What is the correct number of litters? Not for me to say. However, I know it when I see it. 

The only reason I can think of to have more then say two three litters per year (on the high end) is to provide cash flow. Cash flow certainly is not a good reason to breed.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I don't have an opinion anymore on back to back breedings, because I have seen arguements on both sides (good ones!)

What I mean here is not how many litters per BITCH, but per breeder, per year.

Aredea, that is an excellent point. I have no problem with that arrangement (co owners).


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Hi,

My max would be 2 a year and never at the same time. You read on the internet and hear from others how much work it is to whelp and raise a litter. In my opinion the phrase "oh it sooo much work" does not even say 1% how much work it really is. The time, energy, personal sacrifices, and income you put into that litter is amazing amazingly large amount. I had a litter of 6 and personally that is as big as I would want them - 2 armfuls of six puppies worked well for me. 

I Know a certain breeder who has had many litters this year over 6. The puppies were not socialized/healthy when they left. As a Breeder for my bitches and puppies they need to be as healthy and happy as possible. I just feel it owed to my bitches, puppies and puppy families. 

Ash


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## timm (Jan 7, 2007)

Wow Jenna, you sure are pulling out all of the hot controversial topics lately huh? A point I wanted to make is from the view of the potential puppy buyer. What are our primary concerns? Well health, having all clearances and paperwork in order, a good clean safe environment for them to spend their first weeks in, etc. If all of the important criteria are met, then I really don't care if the breeder has more than the typical litters per year. Unless your saying it's impossible for the puppies to be well cared for once it goes over a certain # of litters per year? As for all of your other views you mentioned, yes they all sound great and I agree with you, no dogs should be left outside or be in a crate forever. As for all dogs should be house pets only? Seriously? So they should not be used in competitions of any kind whether for show or sport, or as service dogs to help the blind or search and rescue? You'd be up against the whole world if that's what you mean. In my view, as long as the dog is well taken care for and not abused in any way then I have no issue with them doing other things than just being pets.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

You misunderstand me...

MY OWN DOGS are a service dog for a deaf person, show dogs, and compeition dogs!!! 

But they LIVE IN MY HOUSE... as PETS... and not in a kennel or a crate.

In my siggie, the whippet is a show dog and the Golden on the right is a hearing dog for a deaf person. Yet they play at the beach, sleep in a bed with a person, and are in our home as loved family members. That is what I mean  NOT that dogs should ONLY be pets.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I posted these two topics as part of a discussion/information thread posted by monomer  I think we're all having good, positive discussion here.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

It has gone surprisingly well.

Hooch


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

My breeder has quite a few litters a year. I think she has two or three right now. There was 3 when I picked out Tucker. Jen's Cooper is from the same parents as Tucker's and he's only 6 months or so younger than Tucker. 
She has many Goldens, she does it all herself I believe. We talk on MSN and she's always up till early morning hours and she'll stop the conversation to take care of all the pups.

It sounds like an exhausting job lol.


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## timm (Jan 7, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> You misunderstand me...
> 
> MY OWN DOGS are a service dog for a deaf person, show dogs, and compeition dogs!!!
> 
> ...


ohh ok i gotcha, sorry misunderstood  yeah im totally with you on that


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## DanielleH (Nov 4, 2006)

Personally I think 1-2 litters per year maybe 3 litters tops, any more then that then I would start looking at why is this breeder producing so many litters per year. if I were breeding my limit would be 2 litters max and not at the same time.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

timm said:


> ohh ok i gotcha, sorry misunderstood  yeah im totally with you on that


I can see how what I said could have been confused. It's cool. I just hate to see dogs living (their entire lives) in a kennel. Now don't get me wrong, I have no problem with dogs being kenneled or crated in turns so all dogs get some housetime, or while the owner sleeps and works. But I know some people kennel their dogs and never once even let them be inside w/the family. That's what gets me. I suspect the more litters, the more dogs someone has, the more likely this COULD be the case (though clearly not always).


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Do those of you who breed always (or generally almost always?) keep a puppy from each litter to carry on your line? I always figured that'd be why I'd breed, so I could only have one litter every few years or I'd end up with 15 dogs really fast!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I don't have an opinion anymore on back to back breedings, because I have seen arguements on both sides (good ones!)
> 
> What I mean here is not how many litters per BITCH, but per breeder, per year.
> 
> Aredea, that is an excellent point. I have no problem with that arrangement (co owners).


There are reproductive specialists who believe that aa bitch, once mature, should never have an open season. There are others who feel that, depending on the bitch and circumstances, back-to-back breedings are not a problem but do not promote the "breed them every season" philosphy.
My problem with doing back-to-back breedings, particularly on young bitches, or bitches without a strong vertical pedigree of health clearances, is that there simply is not enough time to be able to determine if problems have been produced. One litter still being pups when the next produced...
As far as numbers of litters per year, it is my personal opinion that a letter should be bred for a purpose, with buyers waiting for every puppy produced. That said, I have enough people on waiting lists that I could likely breed at least a litter a month with puppies being sold beforehand. I cannot, and do not, want to do that. I love having a litter, and spend all the time I possibly can with each one. While I certainly have the property and the facilities to do so, I don't feel that I want to have more than one litter "on the ground" at a time. I want it to be fun and special, and not a job, and I do not want to hire staff to care for them. So I will remain as I have been - having perhaps a litter a year, sometimes not, but knowing that I have done my very best, producing puppies for a particular purpose with breed improvement at the forefront, and that my puppies have gone to wonderful homes with families (whether with competition or strictly companionship as their goals) who I have gotten to know very well during the (often long) process. 
I cannot do any less, and try to do even better.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Ive not had time to read everyones responses (im in a rush) but thought I would give my response to the original post...for me personally I would want a breeder of a future puppy of mine to only have one litter a year at the most...and maybe not every year. I would want the breeder to have a reason for that litter ie...they want to keep a pup for show/competition. This is important for me to know that the litter was well thought out and the breeder WANTS to achieve something with that litter...NOT the mentality of churning out litter after litter just to sell...the pups are then clearly being used to gain money...I want a breeders full attention to be on the litter, inside their home with the love and attention they deserve...I don't see how anyone with many litters at once can do this. My friend is a breeder of lhasa apsos and the time and care that goes into those pups could not be stretched to, say, 3 litters at once. All clearances goes without saying. I have my eye on a breeder for any future puppy of mine and they match everything I would want in a breeder!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

My breeder and her husband have many litters a year. She has what she calls "host families" that have the most of the females. I am not sure if they are owned by the families or co-owned, but she calls them "host families". She has been breeding for over 30 years and knows all the generations of her dogs inside and out.

She has a very beautiful house with attached runs and a boarding and grooming facility. The HUGE family room, dining room, and kitchen are totally puppy proofed, and her garage and basement are set up accommodate anything and everything for her dogs and puppies. Her place was spotless. One would never know you were in the basement or garage, both are very light and airy. She sets up waiting lists before the vet confirms the breedings, then has all the puppies sold before they are born.

I feel very comfortable with the way she does things because I saw how it all worked, was managed. She also had some rules, too, like she will not sell to a first time puppy owner, no children under 4 and gave my children some lessons on the do's and don't's of puppy handling.


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

Looking back, I was hoping to find a breeder when I bought my dog that had 1-3 litters max per year. Things have changed though apparently because when I went to the site the other day, there were litters for the following: Sept 7, Sept 29, Oct 7 and the end of Oct.

I don't know who has the resources for THAT many puppies. I can think of one other breeder that never really returned calls perhaps but they have hired help for their kennel.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

I think that most situations have to be considered individually. I know of some breeders that work outside the home so they have a litter of pups and work. So couldn't someone else that doesn't work outside the home possibly handle 2 litters? What's the difference between crating them for an hour or 2 while working with the other litter and crating them while someone is at work for several hours?

I've also met a breeder that usually has 4 litters every summer. It's the only time of the year they have puppies because husband and wife are both teachers so they are both home with the puppies in addition to their 3 teenage children and the 2 employees that help run the farm. 

I don't think a blanket statement can be made. Each situation is different. And according to the AKC and the GRCA as long as someone only has a litter or 2 a year they fly under the radar with no interference or monitoring from them. At least that's what they told me when I called about my breeder. 

As long as the dogs are well cared for, healthy and happy then I'm happy.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

I wouldn't have thought anyone that works full time would even consider having a litter of pups...what are the pups meant to do once the mother stops cleaning up after them...sit in their own poo for 8 hours a day?! puppy poo from 10 or 12 bottoms....in a kennel....urgh...I think unless a breeder has someone seeing to them throughout the day then I think it would be a bit unfair to leave pups in a confined space for a full working day. jmho


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Agreed Emma and Tilly.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Interesting topic as during my search for a puppy back in February, I had an interesting conversation with a breeder that made me rethink this very issue.

When we first began our search, I thought nothing of number of litters per year, it just seemed to be a non-issue... and so I began phoning (emailing the few who I could not reach by phone) breeders from all over Michigan. About the tenth or so breeder I contacted was a woman, who is very involved in showing her Goldens and only breeds at the most one litter per year and usually has a small waiting list before breeding. We were looking for a female in the April time-frame, so even if she had any puppies that wouldn't have worked for us... so we just had a nice conversation about puppies and breeding in general that lasted about a half-hour or so. During that conversation she mentioned to me that she was going to stop breeding for a while, maybe even altogether, as there were now three "high-volume" breeders in the area and the market for Golden puppies on that end of the state was completely "saturated" and had been for the last two years. After that phone conversation I started thinking and doing some math. This is an industry after all... Let's suppose a breeder is producing 12 litters a year and manages to average 8 pups per litter and sell them for an average of $800 a pup... I felt like these numbers were very realistic. Well the math comes out to... $76,800 per year. Now, that's a healthy income. If you subtract for good-quality kibble, excellent vet care, timely vax, getting all health certs, perhaps showing your dogs to prove-out structure and form before selection for breeding, hiring help, etc... then the actual income number would of course be somewhat smaller... maybe a $50,000 per year income. Still with an income of that much money, it becomes quite obvious its paying the light bills, car payments, mortgage(s) etc... and almost without a doubt is likely the major or only source of income. In any industry there are always periods of "boom" and "bust". During 'boom' times demand far outstrips supply so supply capacity is increased to take advantage but that usually leads up to a period of 'bust' where capacity (supplies) has grown to exceed demand. I have no doubt this situation occurs in the Golden Retriever puppy industry. So what does a breeder do when no one's buying any puppies and you've got a mortgage coming due, a car loan due and their threatening repossession, the bill collectors are pounding at your door... do you scrimp on kibble quality? allow older (non-breeding dogs) to die to save on emergency vet bills? quit proving out your breeding stock? stop doing health certs saving on x-rays etc? Lower your standards on who you will now sell your puppies too. No matter how much you love your animals and how high your original ideals and standards once were, when faced with such a situation almost everyone would let their ideals, standards, and care for their animals slide... enough to stave-off the bill collectors. They are not bad people for doing this, they are only being realistic, they are left without a choice... they are doing the best they can in a bad economic situation... over time they are little more than a 'caring' and 'kindly' puppy mill operation. Looks good on the outside but don't examine the paper work or even the dogs too closely or the operation just might be exposed.

This then is the reason why I will never even consider someone who relies on breeding puppies for an income source. If I'd thought this way when I had first begun my puppy search I could have saved myself a lot of time and simply ignored the breeders who choose to produce any more than 3-4 litters per year.

Our Sophie came from a breeder who... provided all OFA health certs and no excuses, puppies from strong conformation blood lines, they were AKC registrable and no excuses, the breeder is involved in showing, she never breeds more than 4-litters per year and then its at a break-even cost... and our little Sophie was purchased for just $800!


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

I am very lucky Andy (OH) has a very good job, so I get to stay home with my fur gang. I got to spend every walking moment with the pups, but I don’t think I could ever have more than one litter a year.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Excellent points Monomer. I had never even considered that possibility. I've said this before, but will add it here again for emphasis. Again, my experience in this areas is very limited, but I can say this with certainty. For a small hobby breeder that does one to three litters per year, expenses are roughly two or three times revenues. Hardly a way to make a living. 

This fact is what I make my judgment on. If someone is profiting from breeding, what are they leaving out? Further, if they are making a living on it, something really big must be missing.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

I agree Monomer and Vrocco. I wouldn't want a breeder that depends on breeding puppies to support themselves. But I have no problem if they are supplementing an income. Such as 1 spouse works outside the home, there is a pension, or trust fund, some other form of income coming in. Especially if that means that they can be home caring for puppies. So if an extra litter or 2 makes this possible, I'm Ok with it. Especially since this may put them into a level where they are monitored. And I think that someone that is using it to supplement is also more likely to take into account that "if I just do whatever I'll make this much but if I do what I'm supposed to and ensure the quality I can make double that" That can be a pretty big incentive. But if you are in an area where that is not the case...not such a big incentive.

But this also depends on the where the breeder is located. Some areas you can survive on 1 income and any money made from a litter is extra. Other areas you need 2 incomes and money from litters to make it. 

All I know is that a breeder shouldn't be surprised if a prospective buyer asks where the income comes from. Or how did you afford this place?


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

And I should say that when I think of multiple litters I don't generally think all born within a day or 2 of each other. I think morein terms of weeks apart so that while you may have more than 1 litter at a time they are at different stages. Like one is getting ready to go to new homesin a week or 2 and 1 is still being cared for by mom.


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## FranH (May 8, 2005)

Great discussion! 

Monomer, great response, but you missed Federal taxes, State taxes, and Social Security contributions in your math computations. The net $50,000 number is not realistic. 

As far as the number of litters, I agree with Marsha.....it would depend on the capabilities and resources of the breeder. As long as there is sufficient help to care for the dogs, I'm ok with multiple litters.


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## GoldRocksMom (Feb 9, 2007)

*inaccurate, misleading and ridiculous*



> “This is an industry after all... Let's suppose a breeder is producing 12 litters a year and manages to average 8 pups per litter and sell them for an average of $800 a pup... I felt like these numbers were very realistic. Well the math comes out to... $76,800 per year. Now, that's a healthy income. If you subtract for good-quality kibble, excellent vet care, timely vax, getting all health certs, perhaps showing your dogs to prove-out structure and form before selection for breeding, hiring help, etc... then the actual income number would of course be somewhat smaller... maybe a $50,000 per year income.”
> QUOTE BY MONOMER


*This is so inaccurate AND misleading*, I actually find it pathetic and laughable.
This is most definitely “thought up” by someone who knows nothing about
breeding or what is involved with breeding.

I will tell you the actual cost, as it would relate to us, based on the numbers above, (to save argument)! 
12 litters with an average of 8 puppies per litter. 96 puppies.12 moms and how many
Dads? Lets say 6. That is a total of 96 puppies and 18 dogs.
One 40 pound bag of puppy kibble $43.00 dollars. X 4 for each litter $172.00
$172.00 x 12 = $2064.00
Kibble for 18 dogs for one year $ 4160.00
Puppy crates (4 foot x 4 foot x 4 foot) for whelping and raising pups=
1 a litter for whelping, 2 a litter for raising pups @ $300.00 each = $3600.00
For twelve, and needing 6 more for raising pups= $1800.00
Puppy pads to line trays, $21.15 per box X 9 PER LITTER = $2284.20
Vitamins, toys, treats, supplement feeding supplies = $1300.00
Vet care (examinations, vaccines, ultra sound, pre testing on moms and dads)
$600.00 X 12 = $ 7200.00
Puppy package for puppies ( food, vitamins, toys, bowls, collar, leash, harness,
Bed, health testing at one year = hips, elbows, patella, cardiac, CERF = $250.00
Per puppy X 96 = $24,000.00
Micro chips for puppies = 96 X $40.00 = $360.00
*Health clearances for moms*, 
12 micro chips @ $40.00 X 12 = $480.00
12 CERF examinations @$35.00 EACH =$420.00
CERF FEE for 12 = $$126.00
12 Radiographs for Hips, Elbows & Patella examination @ $150.00 each = $1800.00
OFA fee for 12 = $270.00
12 cardiac examinations @ $35.00 each = $420.00 
OFA fee for 12 = $90.00
*Doppler needed for any additional $175.00 each. not included in total
*Thyroid- blood draw by vet $25.00, cost to lab $45.00, OFA fee each $7.50 for each, total
Of $77.50 x 12 = $930.00 
DNA testing, CHIC DNA $5.00 each, DNA testing by DNA lab $35.00 each, 12 x $40.00 = $480.00

BAER testing $85.00 each plus OFA fee of $7.50 each X 12 = $ 1110.00
OFA fee for 12 = $90.00

*Health testing on dads (6)
Same testing as above X 6 = $3128.00
*$3600.00 a year for vitamins& supplements, health examinations for 
*18 breeding dogs*, $500.00 each dog vaccines & routine health care (deworming, heartworm preventive, frontline, dental) for a total of $9000.00
*So far, without adding ANY costs for housing, utilities, gas to go get these
Clearances, food, supplies, time, or adding ANY cost for caring for 18 dogs or 96 puppies, we are at a grand total of $68,040.20
FROM THE TOTAL ABOVE OF $76,800.00 THIS WOULD LEAVE A BALANCE
OF $8759.80 FOR COSTS NOT INCLUDED. What about emergencies? Another Cost NOT added in, toys and treats for the dogs, bedding, care and grooming, the List goes on and on.
SOME GREAT LIVING! Out of $8759.80 we need to pay for housing as these 18 dogs and 96 pups are still homeless and care (NOT included in total expense above).

Taxes ? GREAT question, facility costs to house 18 dogs and 96 puppies,
the CARE of them.
I think this shows just how ridiculous and inaccurate this was.




 
* 
* 
*


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## Jellybean's mom (Jul 6, 2007)

So after reading all of the costs associated with breeding and raising approximately 12 litters in one year, how can any breeder do it and still do ALL recommended clearances, ALL responsible vetting AND provide quality and loving care?


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

I think Monomer's point, with a little exaggeration, was that it is an unreliable source of income. I can't argue with your point though, GRM. In fact, my previous post supports your findings.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Jellybean's mom said:


> So after reading all of the costs associated with breeding and raising approximately 12 litters in one year, how can any breeder do it and still do ALL recommended clearances, ALL responsible vetting AND provide quality and loving care?


Excellent point! Remember, just because you just collected a pile of cash, it does not mean you made money. That is why I said dogs should not be treated as livestock.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

GoldRocksMom said:


> *This is so inaccurate AND misleading*, I actually find it pathetic and laughable.
> This is most definitely “thought up” by someone who knows nothing about
> breeding or what is involved with breeding....


You violated the spirit of this thread... you have resorted to character assassination. My thoughts are only that and were not directed at anyone. It is meant as an intelligent discussion of ideas. If you felt guilty of something when reading it, I am sorry but have no control over your mental state. You should merely state your thoughts and leave it at that. Its your attitude that brings about turmoil on this forum. Please go back and re-read ACC rules as to posting in her threads and *discussing* these topics about breeding. Pardon me but your animosity (and paranoia) is showing... yet again...


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## GoldRocksMom (Feb 9, 2007)

Jellybean's mom said:


> So after reading all of the costs associated with breeding and raising approximately 12 litters in one year, how can any breeder do it and still do ALL recommended clearances, ALL responsible vetting AND provide quality and loving care?


Puppies are not $800.00 .

We have donations, other income.

And another point, as you see the added costs to have clearances included on OFA and CERF datbases, may in some cases, be sent in long after health testing and findings are completed.

Breeding correctly is Not for the faint of heart and is very costly.

We have dedicated people who have made a commitment in their lives
to these dogs.

I would agree that not many can do it correctly.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Of course, not all these expenses are incurred for each litter, either. Whelping boxes, pans for potty training, stc can be used for more than one litter. My wooden whelping boxes have lasted for 10 years. The new lighter weight ones last about 5 or 6 litters (which is roughly 5 years for me.) My expens about the same. Hip, elbow and heart clearances are only required once in a dogs lifetime. 

It is never a money making proposition when done right. As a friend told me, you might make some money on a individual litter, but that money is then spent on the other dogs for show expenses, or to buy crates or put up fencing, medical expenses, etc.

I am hugely in the hole for one of my girls-two breedings, one chilled with all the accompanying expenses, one natural to a BIS dog, progesterone testing for both breedings, ultra sounds to determine pregnancy (or not, in my case). I am trying one more time, since third time was the charm for my other girl.

If you take the dogs as a business, then you can deduct your expenses. For a short period of time, when I had more dogs and was out showing every weekend, had a very active stud dog, 3 or 4 litters a year, etc. I did that. My husband could not believe the amount of money I lost every year  and my accountant was tough as nails,so I had separate checking accounts for the dogs, their own credit card, etc. that were used only for the dogs. Couldn't deduct toys though


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

If its such a losing business proposition then my obvious next question would be "Why would someone choose to breed 12 or 15 or more litters per year?" (The production of 100+ puppies every single year doesn't sound like it would be a breeding program geared toward breed betterment, especially if the breeder doesn't particpate in any 'proving' activities whatsoever.) Its certainly not about bettering the breed. Its just so hard for me to fathom its not about the money... I'm just trying to draw on logical conclusions here and from what I know about human behavior.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Doesn't specialling a dog cost in the "tens of thousands" of dollars?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

If you breed the same dogs often enough, you can make money, especially if you do not have the expenses of showing or competing, etc. Obviously, the high volume commercial breeders make money at it. They use their own stud dogs bred to their own bitches, over and over. A hobby breeder may do that at times, but not over and over and over. And let's face it, some high volume commercial breeders do skip steps-they skip clearances, or will have a few litters and then do health testing. At least 2 of the high volume breeders in my area (with lovely websites, by the way) charge almost double what I charge, and they are skipping steps but the general dog-buying public does not realise this. They see pretty puppies (and some of them do have pretty dogs), are sold a song and dance by the breeder and buy a puppy. This actually happened to one of my puppy buyers, who should have known better. She had one puppy from me, wanted another but I didn't have a litter, so she went to this guy with a beautiful website and a dog imported from Romania. By the time he was a year old, they had spent thousands on cluster seizures. He was finally euthanised when they couldn't bring him out of a seizure. The breeder's response-well, that happens sometimes. I have since found that other puppies from this breeder have seized as well. And yet another who was producing terrible temperament problems. How did she get away with it? She told puppy buyers that the parents were just being protective of the puppies, or that the other dogs were being protective. People bought the story, and then had puppies who were biting them and their children by the time they were 6 months old.

Because I breed for myself first, to have something to keep and hopefully show, I spend a lot of time searching for the right pedigree and the right dog to breed to my girls. Sometimes it is a dog I own, but rarely. I've done it once, and am about to do it again, albeit somewhat reluctantly. I wanted to wait until my boy was finished, but if I breed him to my girl, I can control everything to try and ensure she gets pregnant. I can do all the progesterones I want to, and I can breed them for as long as she will stand.

And again, because I want to keep a puppy, I spend a LOT of time with each puppy, each day, starting with Super Puppy exercises even before their eyes are open.

At this point in my life, I pretty much max out at 2 litters per year-I'm getting old after all  And I do have help, in the person of a dog person who is on disability and is home 24/7 pretty much.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

And yes, specialling a dog can cost in the tens of thousands per year. I briefly specialed my boy many years ago, used a very good handler in Wisconsin, not one of the super powers , and spent about $15,000 that year. That was when I was married and we both worked at very well paying jobs.

Why did I do it? I was proud of my boy and loved to see what he could do. In addition, people saw him, bred to him, and widened the number of pedigrees that I can go back to in the future to get a piece of my boy.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Here's my question, then. If you don't make money off of having 15 litters a year, why on earth WOULD you do it?


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

GoldRocksMom said:


> ...And another point, as you see the added costs to have clearances included on OFA and CERF datbases, may in some cases, be sent in long after health testing and findings are completed...


You are right in that I don't breed... I only try to draw logical conclusions from what I do know and what people tell me. And then ask logical questions based upon the answers I receive... with nothing particularly evil in my intentions. However, I know you're very touchy in that everything I might say, you somehow believe it is being directed at you... I don't know how to get it across to you that you're not the center of everything and every topic... please don't take this the wrong way but, you are just not that important. No one else seems to be taking offense but you.

So, please believe me when I say I don't quite fully understand your statement above. I'm not trying to pick on you or start a fight here... but I am truely curious as to the advantages of sending in health certs long after testing and findings are completed and the puppies are sold and gone... then it also occurs to me that if these tests were never done, how would a puppy buyer even know since its not suppose to be in the database yet? Sorta like saying, "Just trust me here, its in the mail." isn't it? To be 100% perfectly clear here I am *NOT* accusing you of this practice and so there is no reason for you to become defensive... I'm just asking this as a lay person trying to understand the reasoning behind different practices... and since you were the one to make this statement, I naturally thought you'd be the person to ask, nothing more.

And please let's try to keep this discussion quite civil and intelligent.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> ...BTW, maybe Monomer can put links to this and the clearance thread in his puppy fact checking post ...


Just now saw this...

Sorry ACC... really wouldn't be fair as this is a thread asking for opinions and therefore just by its nature is asking for individual's biases. I am going to try very hard to keep that Fact Checker as non-biased as I possibly can. I hope you can understand this...


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

monomer said:


> Interesting topic as during my search for a puppy back in February, I had an interesting conversation with a breeder that made me rethink this very issue.
> 
> When we first began our search, I thought nothing of number of litters per year, it just seemed to be a non-issue... and so I began phoning (emailing the few who I could not reach by phone) breeders from all over Michigan. About the tenth or so breeder I contacted was a woman, who is very involved in showing her Goldens and only breeds at the most one litter per year and usually has a small waiting list before breeding. We were looking for a female in the April time-frame, so even if she had any puppies that wouldn't have worked for us... so we just had a nice conversation about puppies and breeding in general that lasted about a half-hour or so. During that conversation she mentioned to me that she was going to stop breeding for a while, maybe even altogether, as there were now three "high-volume" breeders in the area and the market for Golden puppies on that end of the state was completely "saturated" and had been for the last two years. After that phone conversation I started thinking and doing some math. This is an industry after all... Let's suppose a breeder is producing 12 litters a year and manages to average 8 pups per litter and sell them for an average of $800 a pup... I felt like these numbers were very realistic. Well the math comes out to... $76,800 per year. Now, that's a healthy income. If you subtract for good-quality kibble, excellent vet care, timely vax, getting all health certs, perhaps showing your dogs to prove-out structure and form before selection for breeding, hiring help, etc... then the actual income number would of course be somewhat smaller... maybe a $50,000 per year income. Still with an income of that much money, it becomes quite obvious its paying the light bills, car payments, mortgage(s) etc... and almost without a doubt is likely the major or only source of income. In any industry there are always periods of "boom" and "bust". During 'boom' times demand far outstrips supply so supply capacity is increased to take advantage but that usually leads up to a period of 'bust' where capacity (supplies) has grown to exceed demand. I have no doubt this situation occurs in the Golden Retriever puppy industry. So what does a breeder do when no one's buying any puppies and you've got a mortgage coming due, a car loan due and their threatening repossession, the bill collectors are pounding at your door... do you scrimp on kibble quality? allow older (non-breeding dogs) to die to save on emergency vet bills? quit proving out your breeding stock? stop doing health certs saving on x-rays etc? Lower your standards on who you will now sell your puppies too. No matter how much you love your animals and how high your original ideals and standards once were, when faced with such a situation almost everyone would let their ideals, standards, and care for their animals slide... enough to stave-off the bill collectors. They are not bad people for doing this, they are only being realistic, they are left without a choice... they are doing the best they can in a bad economic situation... over time they are little more than a 'caring' and 'kindly' puppy mill operation. Looks good on the outside but don't examine the paper work or even the dogs too closely or the operation just might be exposed.
> 
> ...


Sounds a little like where I am at at this very monomer. Except along with other things is failing health. For me when looking at an over saturated market (going from 3 breeders within 100 miles of me to 3 within ten miles selling 200 dollar pups and unconcountable within 100 miles) it was time to come out of breeding all together.

Had I been healthier there is a market to keep the pups longer and completely housebreak them first as people say they don't have the time but then you are back to market price again.

I am not sure how many shows are people you have talked about with ya but the only thing I kinda disagreed with is show costs. The show costs to enter are not that much it is everything to get you there that costs. I could easily see showing along (depending on the number of shows you enter a year) taking over half maybe more of the 78,000 you mentioned. If you entered only the fall and spring shows in your area only this would be quite less. 

i remember when we were shoing BeBe (the poodle) it wasn't the show costs it was the grooming, the hotel, food, gas and such incidentals that just finally drove us to only going to local shows. Heck I spent 400 dollars going to see a friends dog just show just for fun on weekend. 

With the instant demand for puppers I am seeing here and low cost puppers it is just not a market I can or care to try and compete in. Laurel's last set of pups had a waiting list and when I notified the prospective owners more than half lost their deposit in what I can only assume were reasons for going out for the quick fix of getting a puppy now.

The program we have of suplying and training a cmpanion puppy for autistic or slightly disabled chilren is having to be scrapped cause I can no longer afford the training on the pups. It is very sad indeed.

But no way will have have puppers litter after litter and lower prices anymore than I did to go any more broke than I am going now. I just personally can't do it.


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## tcww (Oct 3, 2007)

*Question*



monomer said:


> ....... if the breeder doesn't particpate in any 'proving' activities whatsoever.)........


What's a proving activity?


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Like Showing your dog in conformation... Conformation is a competition where dogs of a particular breed are compared against its breed standard. The concept behind this particular activity is that meeting the written standard is some assurance that your dog is structurally sound which in turn hopefully will translates into many healthy years of pain-free life with your best friend. Other types of proving activities might include entering your dog into field trials, agility, fly-ball, obedience, etc... all are design to give a breeder some unbiased opinion as to the "worthiness" of adding that dog's particular gene-set into the breeding line's gene-pool. I hope my answer was easy enough to understand as I'm at work and am rushing through this... if not, I will try to give you a better, more detailed response later.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Proving activies include conformation showing, obedience competition, field trials and hunt tests... all of the above... maybe agility.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

monomer said:


> Like Showing your dog in conformation... Conformation is a competition where dogs of a particular breed are compared against its breed standard. The concept behind this particular activity is that meeting the written standard is some assurance that your dog is structurally sound which in turn hopefully will translates into many healthy years of pain-free life with your best friend. Other types of proving activities might include entering your dog into field trials, agility, fly-ball, obedience, etc... all are design to give a breeder some idea of the "worthiness" of adding that dog's particular gene-set into the breeding line's gene-pool. I hope my answer was easy enough to understand as I'm at work and am rushing through this... if not, I will try to give you a better, more detailed response later.


Not only that, but proving your dog, especially in conformation, obedience or field, allows you to compare your dog to others, so you have an idea of things you need to improve upon, as well as areas you are doing well in.

The non-competitive CCA allows a breeder to get 3 opinions of their dog's structure-you not only get a Pass or Fail, but you also get a written evaluation that can be extremely helpful in planning a breeding direction.

If you don't compete, you are often breeding in a vacuum, unaware of the possibilities that are out there and how your dog(s)

That is how I view it anyway. My goal of course is a championship in the show ring but that is not always possible for a number of reasons. I still like to get them out, to see how they measure up against other dogs. I also plan to pursue CCA's, now that that option is available and I am trying to prevail on a friend to work my dogs for a WC as well


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

tcww said:


> What's a proving activity?


I was going to stay out of this thread, but what about therapy dogs? Isnt that proving that they have an AWESOME temperament? My stud is extremely laid back and gentle. He will lay down at a small child's feet because he knows they are small. He is larger than breed standard at 92 pounds and also taller than standard. My breeding program isn't to produce show dogs. Mine is to produce healthy, great tempered pets. Is it wrong of me to breed beacuse I do not breed to compete or becuase I have more interest in therapy visits?


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

telsmith1 said:


> ...Isnt that proving that they have an AWESOME temperament? ...


What all exactly constitutes a 'proving' activity is up for individual interpretations and so somewhat biased. So in my biased opinion I would think sure, of course it is. Temperament just about supercedes all other attributes in my list of priorities. But what's even better is to also combine it with other more physical pursuits (venues) to prove out structure as well. These are just my opinions and nothing more... and remember I AM NOT A BREEDER just a regular guy with two Goldens.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> I was going to stay out of this thread, but what about therapy dogs? Isnt that proving that they have an AWESOME temperament? My stud is extremely laid back and gentle. He will lay down at a small child's feet because he knows they are small. He is larger than breed standard at 92 pounds and also taller than standard. My breeding program isn't to produce show dogs. Mine is to produce healthy, great tempered pets. Is it wrong of me to breed beacuse I do not breed to compete or becuase I have more interest in therapy visits?


Becky I don't think it's wrong at ALL. Not even slightly... but many won't agree with me. But why don't you start a new thread, similar to this one, to discuss THAT particular aspect. I think it's worth its own thread!


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

monomer said:


> What all exactly constitutes a 'proving' activity is up for individual interpretations and so somewhat biased. So in my biased opinion I would think sure, of course it is. Temperament just about supercedes all other attributes in my list of priorities. But what's even better is to also combine it with other more physical pursuits (venues) to prove out structure as well. These are just my opinions and nothing more... and remember I AM NOT A BREEDER just a regular guy with two Goldens.


I understand that, but I would rather concentrate my time and his time doing therapy visits and making a difference to people who really appreciate it rather than competing.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Also some people don't LIKE the look of show dogs or think they're wrong, even. Some prefer field goldens, which more resemble the original golden. Etc. 

I like both, though I dislike the look of some show dogs and some pet dogs and some field dogs...

But let's get a new thread for this, so the litter number issue isn't lost here in this thread. I can start it, or anyone else can.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Go for it Jenna, start it and I will post. (That way you can enforce your rules  )


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Oh that ought to be a fun thread. Thank goodness I am headed out the door for church. ROFL

Hooch


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I think having a therapy dog is a great thing but it is not proving your dog, in my opinion. Proving is generally more about the activities that make a Golden a Golden, the things that it does that not all breeds do, the way it looks that makes it identifiable as a Golden and not a Newfoundland.

Not every dog has to be a perfect specimen-I mean, there are no perfect specimans. Would I breed a dog with Jake's stats? No, but that is me, and my preferences for what I want my dogs to be. Do I breed for temperament too? You bet, and for health as well. And yes, structure and type.

My main concern with a dog of that size is that he is very much over breed standard, and if you were to continue down that path, you might end up with dogs that were consistently that big-hard to take a dog that big duck hunting, and that is one of the purposes of the breed. OTOH, he might produce dogs that are right in standard. or even small. If he produces dogs that are correctly sized FTMP (for the most part), pass their clearances, have good temperaments and longevity, and that pass their CCA's, or come close, FTMP-I would say Wow! Doing something right! Maybe not what I do or how I do it, but right.

My girl with the icky head-I have to be aware of that fault and breed to correct it. If I find that her offspring have icky heads, I will end that pedigree. If I didn't do that, I would eventually end up with dogs that didn't look like Goldens, and the breed type that sets them aside from other breeds would be lost. And that is important to me-it is one of the reasons I fell in love with Goldens.

And honestly, I think that all Goldens should have that temperament. It is something that my dogs do also around small children and babies-I love to see them do it. When my old stud dog was lifted into a van to meet a child whose body was so twisted by his disease he could not sit upright, and who twitched and spasmed uncontrollably, he stood there a minute looking at the child. Then, very carefully and thoughtfully, he fitted himself around the apparatus the child was in and laid his head on his lap. That is also what I am breeding for, and I want to do it in a package that meets the standard as best as possible.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Church? HA LOL

Tahnee please cut and paste your wonderful post to my new thread I am starting now...  thanks!!! 

I value all opinions!

I want to keep topics separate so none get lost.

Oh, and Old Guy, I totally dig not putting these in the fact check... though I do think they're interesting resources. Maybe they can be a separate sticky some day.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

telsmith1 said:


> I understand that, but I would rather concentrate my time and his time doing therapy visits and making a difference to people who really appreciate it rather than competing.


And that is a wonderful and noble pursuit...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

See the new thread for this topic (breeding without or with showing)


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

TheHooch said:


> Oh that ought to be a fun thread. Thank goodness I am headed out the door for church. ROFL
> 
> Hooch


I'm an old guy too.... Isn't it funny how we all seem to get religon as we near the end of life? At least I didn't have to go to prison to 'find' God...
Go make your peace... other old guy... I'll probably still be here when you get back.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Church? HA LOL



LOL When ya been dead as many times as I have in the last year......well let's just look at it as insurance. LOL

Hooch <---and if anyone saw house last night me nor him saw any pretty lights. LOL


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Double post and neither of them did the quote right LOL


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Now religion, there's a topic worthy of a fight LOL


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Church? HA LOL
> 
> Tahnee please cut and paste your wonderful post to my new thread I am starting now...  thanks!!!
> 
> ...


Well that would have to be just between you and the big guy up above...
Of course that would be Joe up in Canada, who'd you think I was referring to?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

For Dog's sake... who else? 

Joe is god. Duh!


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

I also think that going towards the service side is proving your dog. Not all goldens are able to be service dogs of any type. 

And for me one of the main reasons I wanted a golden was for their temperment, so anything that helps show that is a bonus to me. Because that is what I'm after. I don't care how many points or anything a dog has because I'm not interested in showing. I also don't care how well a dog perfroms at field trials, because I can virtually guaruntee that my pet won't be out duck hunting. But will be out just enjoying the fall air. 

Working at a hospital now I love when I see the dogs walking around and working. Now that interests me so that may be something I look for in the future.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

But a "mutt" can be a wonderful service dog too. And they can be good SAR dogs...good therapy dogs.....good dogs all around.

The breed is a breed for a reason.....and the reason for the Golden Retriever is to, well........retrieve.


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