# Loose leash walking woes



## Coastal Pup (Jan 30, 2021)

Hi All,

Like millions of owners before me, I am having trouble with Beckett pulling on the leash. He has gotten better, meaning he’ll have 10-15 second intervals where he won’t pull, but when he does pull, he doesn’t stop even when he starts that labored, hacking, breathing sound. Usually I try to just stop moving or turn around and wait until he calms down and gives slack on the leash, and then start again. Obviously, it’s slow going, and not practical in all situations - but the lack of consistency in these situations is probably what has allowed this to continue for so long.
Anyway, in our first obedience class (leans more Positive training), the instructor recommended a chain martingale collar. She put it on him and demonstrated how it worked in class. He responded to the correction with her, but only moderately well with me - but I didn’t get any further training with the collar, and the class ended, so I was hesitant to buy one and end up using it wrong.
His current teacher (more balanced training) has also recommended the chain martingale, and has suggested even the plastic prong (point?) Starmark collar. His new teacher spent the entirety of our first class watching everyone walk with their dogs and recommending which collars will work best with them. Essentially every dog in class has either a chain martingale, a plastic prong, or a metal prong collar.
I guess I’m just discouraged that I’m not getting through to Beckett with a flat collar, at least not that well. I just don’t know if I should try one of the training collars or keep working with the flat collar. Ideally I would be able to train him with just the flat, but maybe I’m just being too stubborn to realize that he needs more than that. Watching the instructors let him run full speed to the end of the leash and get jerked back by the training collars was so uncomfortable - but then he started walking nicely for them - so I can see that the collars do help. I’m nervous that I’ll end up relying too much on the collar later on though - and I’ll have to train him with a flat collar all over again anyway. How long are training collars supposed to be used, and how does the transition work to a flat collar? Beckett is 6 months old. Thanks in advance.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Coastal Pup said:


> How long are training collars supposed to be used, and how does the transition work to a flat collar? Beckett is 6 months old.


The longer you allow the behavior to continue the harder it will be to correct. 
If you are going to use a prong collar, I would suggest something like this;








Amazon.com : Herm SPRENGER Ultra-Plus Prong Dog Training Collar, 2.25 mm x 14" Neck Size, 2.25 mm x 16" Chain Length, Steel Chrome Plated Dog Prong Collar, Pinch Collar for Dogs, Dog Correction Collar : Pet Supplies


Amazon.com : Herm SPRENGER Ultra-Plus Prong Dog Training Collar, 2.25 mm x 14" Neck Size, 2.25 mm x 16" Chain Length, Steel Chrome Plated Dog Prong Collar, Pinch Collar for Dogs, Dog Correction Collar : Pet Supplies



www.amazon.com




Yes, it looks mean and scary, it is not. When a dog pulls it pinches, the instant he stops pulling the pinching stops, very easy for the dog to learn. 
I have never used or owned a pinch collar. I have always been diligent in teaching proper heeling from the start. I prefer to use a slip leash and a riding crop, wiffle bat or piece of 1 inch plastic pipe with foam insulation taped to it. Before you panic, none of the above are for beating the dog. Start by teaching the heeling position when you are standing still. Next you turn away from the dog and command 'Here' and give a tug on the lead to reposition him. Turn toward the dog and command 'Heel' with a tap on the butt to encourage him to turn with you. Lots of short positive sessions with fun stuff before and after. Next start walking the dog on a path or sidewalk and keeping him in proper heeling position, if he lunges ahead command heel, give a tug on the lead and tap his front legs with the crop. Praise the dog for being in proper position and No No, tug or tap when out of position. NO TREATS, a dog walking nicely beside you in anticipation of a treat is just begging, not heeling. Progress to turning sharply and commanding here or heel. Once taught and understood you can make a game out of it, command heel and move around and turn quickly so the dog has to almost chase you to remain in a heeling position.



Coastal Pup said:


> Watching the instructors let him run full speed to the end of the leash and get jerked back by the training collars was so uncomfortable


It is also poor training. Most trainers realized that decades ago.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

I'm not a fan of prong collars (or anything that uses discomfort to control a dog) but they do have a place in particular situations (e.g., large powerful dog and weak/elderly owner), especially if they are only used short-term while working on training the behavior using more positive methods. I don't mind martingales at all, especially if they are sized to not close tighter than the snug circumference of the dogs neck (i.e., not being used as a "choke" collar). I like the chain ones like you pictured because I think the sound of the chain works as a signal not to pull even before the collar tightens. 

There are many effective and positive ways to train loose leash walking. The key is consistency (another reason I don't like pinch collars - it seems unfair to "punish" the dog when we've failed to really put in the work to train the behavior in a more positive way). You may find it worthwhile to buy this webinar from Fenzi Dog Sports Academy and see if any of these methods work for you: Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - LS140: Stop Leash Pulling: Multiple Methods to Loose Leash Walking


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

pawsnpaca said:


> it seems unfair to "punish" the dog when we've failed to really put in the work to train the behavior in a more positive way


That would be a failing of the trainer and abuse of a dog, not a fault in any training aid or method.
Positive training is a term that gets tossed around a lot. I will admit that it is a very effective marketing ploy. People often spend thousands of dollars over several years for basic obedience that is normally taught in a few months.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

A reminder, please be respectful to one another, there are different views/opinions and methods when it comes to training.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> A reminder, please be respectful to one another, there are different views/opinions and methods when it comes to training.


If that is in reference to my post, I meant no disrespect. I was just pointing out that the tool is never the problem, it is always the trainer. Additionally "positive training" that doesn't achieve results is not training at all.

There are many different and effective training methods and I like to here about all of them. Someday that knowledge may help with a specific dog or behavior.


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## I'm Elaine (Oct 27, 2020)

I know there is a lot of different opinions about halters, but our boy walks great with his Joyride halter. He hardly ever pulls and has learned heel very well. The leash is almost always slack and he loves to go for walks. When he starts to pull we stop and sit. When he stands back up, on command, we continue. My husband has taught him to stop and "watch" to make eye contact, and then "touch" to touch his hand with his nose. It's amazing how well that has worked. Those two things make Jackson refocus and listen. The Joyride harness is pricy, it doesn't compare to the ones I've seen in the pet stores. For us, it's been worth it! In the car he has the Sleepypod restraint halter and that has been a fantastic purchase! He's never in the car without it and doesn't resist it at all. We have the martingale halter, but haven't used it since we got the Joyride.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

How old is your pup? And what does he/she weigh?

I strongly agree with the Fenzi course listed above, however if your dog is a pulling machine that you need to take safe control of, a prong or martingale collar may be needed. It does not have to be a forever collar - that is a flat collar can be switched to once your dog understands.

My Wren's instructor for her 1st 2 classes (started at 8 weeks and at 5 months she graduated her 2nd class and is ready to start more formal training) recommends martingales, mostly to prevent your dog pulling out of the collar and worse, running away with no collar - I actually did purchase one but have never put it on her.

I guess what I am saying is if you are having an issue, and it sounds like you are, use the tool that will keep you and your dog safest with the least amount of force. If that is a prong, so be it. A martingale? Same. Just remember that if you are using a training collar, it must be removed whenever you are not actively training and/or out and about with your dog.

I am not a fan of the so called choke collars for everyday purposes (Disclaimer: I do use one of my dogs if needed to perfect heeling once they are about 98% but again, I have experience and do not take this type of collar lightly). A light tug and immediate release can be workable in a dog that mostly understands but is potentially very dangerous if your dog pulls. 

FWIW: I train 99.99% on a flat collar with reward based training; I come from a more 'traditional' method of training however, as in I started back in the 80s LOL Use the tool you need, rewards are a powerful tool and you can absolutely pair a prong or martingale with praise, play or treats. But 1st you need to be able to control your dog -- so use the collar that gives you that control as you work through his understanding.

Good luck, it might be a struggle at first and you may need private lessons but the results will definitel be worth it. BTW Fenzi has a new round of courses starting up on the 1st

You did not ask but:
A head halter is not a good training choice since it does not train but can be a choice to simply get your dog from here to there while you train loose lead walking, a harness can actually teach a dog to lean into the harness and really pull (think sled dogs).


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

I prefer balanced training. I got nowhere doing circle methods and such. Made me dizzy. Lol You may want to do some research as to which age is best to use a Herm Sprenger as a tool. (I’d stick with that brand.)I don’t know if six months is too young. I’ve used one and they are excellent training tools. Whether they are abusive or not depends on the person holding the leash. I think damage can occur with a dog straining on a flat collar.

You will move along more quickly if your dog receives a clear message as to what is and isn’t allowed rather than him repeating the same inappropriate behavior over and over.

People aren’t born expert dog trainers. I think you are doing great and putting in work that will pay off. You’ll get all sorts of different opinions and every dog is different.

I like Obedience Road/Connie Cleveland, Robert Cabral has good videos on proper use of a prong collar, and Leerburg has some good videos.

Oh, and I prefer a 2.25 size prong, but you’ll need extra links to fit that to a Golden.

Edit: Count me in the group who dislikes haltis.


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## JulieCAinMA (Jun 19, 2020)

Following. 
In the same boat, with the same questions.


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## kikis_retrieving_service (Mar 29, 2021)

Following for advice as well!

Our puppy walks decently on a loosh leash with a flat collar but WITH kibble as treats, and I mean a tonne of them...we feed her a whole meal while on a walk. Without kibble she doesn't last long before starting to pull. I see now from SRW's comment that we shouldn't have trained her with food?

We've been working with the treats for months and are really starting to see nice results, but not sure how we can transition away from them!


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

kikis_retrieving_service said:


> I see now from SRW's comment that we shouldn't have trained her with food


Keep in mind that this is just one person's opinion. SRW comes from a more "traditional" training background. I come from a more reinforcement-based background. And Diane probably falls somewhere between us. Although I suspect we all use food to some extent as a reward, how much, when, and how quickly food is phased out of the training process will vary greatly (though phasing out the food is the ultimate goal, even for a "positive" trainer like me!) . Training methods can be a hotly debated topic, even among those with years of experience and dogs competing at the highest level of obedience. There is no one "correct" way to train - a lot depends on both the dog and the handler, as well as handler skills, experience and goals, and how easily the handler can access an experienced trainer for guidance and support. 

I wish there was a single "best" way to train, but I'm afraid you need to do some research, find a trainer you are comfortable with and whose methods align with your own thoughts and goals... and be willing to try something else if a particular method doesn't seem to be working for you or your dog...


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

kikis_retrieving_service said:


> I see now from SRW's comment that we shouldn't have trained her with food?


I use treats on a *very *limited basis in training for several reasons. Treats can work to keep a puppies attention and teach the meaning of a command. Puppies will learn very quickly and at a very young age to plant their butt when they hear 'Sit', then look at you anticipating a treat. That's good, it teaches the meaning of 'Sit' and to focus on the handler. it doesn't teach the whole concept of "Sit means Sit until told to do otherwise". 
A dog that has to be bribed with a treat may know the meaning of a command but that isn't obedience. Your dog needs to sit, come, heel, whatever because you told her to, not because of a treat. 



kikis_retrieving_service said:


> We've been working with the treats for months and are really starting to see nice results, but not sure how we can transition away from them!


Cold turkey is my recommendation. I know you will be tempted to taper off with the treats but it sounds like they are a huge crutch and distraction right now. When you give her a treat she gobbles it down and wants another, am I right?

Don't think that your efforts so far were wasted, they are not. Your girl is heeling, just not for the right reason, at least not entirely. She needs to heel because it is what you told her to do. She will and with great pride if you keep working with her.

Retrievers are working dogs with a strong desire to please, treats can and do distract from that. Work with your pup in short sessions, whenever you have 5, 10 or 20 minutes. Be very conscious of your tone of voice, praise her for doing it right, no-no when she gets it wrong and don't overdo it with either. She will notice everything you do and say and how you say it, so be consistent and always maintain your standards.


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## goldielynn (Sep 5, 2020)

Oh boy, I think we're like a couple months older than you, and I can tell you now, if you don't nip it in the bud now, it's going to get worse.

Windsor's pulling is very situational. In new settings or excited settings (e.g., groomers, class), he pulls like crazy, and he's so, so strong that if we're not 100% paying attention, we would fall. In areas where he knows (the park, our block, other people's homes), he can loose leash walk like the best of them. So we switch between a flat leash collar, slip lead (it's just so easy to put on and gives a great correction without too much of a pinch..), and for the "excitable events," we use a gentle leader. Make sure that you don't get one that fits too tight because I've seen it leave marks on other goldens' faces. When he goes to shows, we put the gentle leader on him right when he exits the car. The gentle leader lets him know that he's working, and he cooperates beautifully. When he tries to jump or pull, it just brings his head down. We're also trying the new 3-1 harness that allows you to clip the leash to his front and we'll see how that goes. 

While he's getting better, we still have to come to the realization that he's still a puppy, and when he sees a new dog friend or is in an excitable environment, he's going to want to go after the thing. Good thing is that his recall is getting better and better and half the time I can call him off his pulling, but other times, he honestly can't even hear us....


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

She isn't a Golden but she is a retriever and we are training without treats.




Big retrieve for a little girl, over 100 yards and mostly water. She can't see the bumper until she gets pretty close so it takes a lot of confidence to push all the way across. The first bumper drifted way to the right with the wind. Lily was being very good, not swimming toward the launcher, so I shot another one when she got close. 
She was dropping the bumper at the end, not something to worry about too much in the field, we'll take care of that in the yard. At this stage building desire and having fun are the main goals.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

And... for what it's worth, this is my boy Dover earning his first Rally Excellent leg.  He was a very intense, high drive dog (he's almost 11 in this video) and the control needed for Rally was _really _hard for him (Agility is what _he _loved to do... he did Rally for me). He received a perfect 100 score for this run. Even at this point, he was getting a LOT of food rewards in class/training, but in competition no treats or food or toys are allowed in the ring (though we're allowed verbal reinforcement). So... what SRW does works for him and his dogs, what I do works for me and my dogs. Everyone needs to decide for themselves.





(PS - the dog you see at the end of the video is my boy Guinness. He had significant dog reactivity so competitions like this were hard for him and you can see he wasn't particularly comfortable in the ring. This was one of his first Advanced runs. BUT, using lots of treats and praise - in training - he was able to not only earn his Rally Advanced titles, but went on to earn a Rally Excellent title, Qing on all three runs with scores all in the high nineties).

And for the record, at some point early in their training, I also stop rewarding my dogs (other than the occasional "thank you" or life reward) for basic manners things they know well, like sit, down, stand, stay, wait, leave it, etc.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

SRW - that video is so cool! So nice to see a pup so young doing what she was bred to do! 💕 Is it normal for a pup that young to be able to swim so well? I mean, the rest of it was really impressive too, but just the speed at which she was swimming was amazing! 😯


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## JulieCAinMA (Jun 19, 2020)

pawsnpaca said:


> And... for what it's worth, this is my boy Dover earning his first Rally Excellent leg.  He was a very intense, high drive dog (he's almost 11 in this video) and the control needed for Rally was _really _hard for him (Agility is what _he _loved to do... he did Rally for me). He received a perfect 100 score for this run. Even at this point, he was getting a LOT of food rewards in class/training, but in competition no treats or food or toys are allowed in the ring (though we're allowed verbal reinforcement). So... what SRW does works for him and his dogs, what I do works for me and my dogs. Everyone needs to decide for themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In a word: WOW! Just WOW! #archiegoals


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## JulieCAinMA (Jun 19, 2020)

SRW said:


> She isn't a Golden but she is a retriever and we are training without treats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was really beautiful to watch! Lily did a great job!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Really nice  Thank you for sharing.



pawsnpaca said:


> And... for what it's worth, this is my boy Dover earning his first Rally Excellent leg.  He was a very intense, high drive dog (he's almost 11 in this video) and the control needed for Rally was _really _hard for him (Agility is what _he _loved to do... he did Rally for me). He received a perfect 100 score for this run. Even at this point, he was getting a LOT of food rewards in class/training, but in competition no treats or food or toys are allowed in the ring (though we're allowed verbal reinforcement). So... what SRW does works for him and his dogs, what I do works for me and my dogs. Everyone needs to decide for themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

SRW said:


> She isn't a Golden but she is a retriever and we are training without treats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This was cool to watch. She did great!


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

pawsnpaca said:


> And... for what it's worth, this is my boy Dover earning his first Rally Excellent leg.  He was a very intense, high drive dog (he's almost 11 in this video) and the control needed for Rally was _really _hard for him (Agility is what _he _loved to do... he did Rally for me). He received a perfect 100 score for this run. Even at this point, he was getting a LOT of food rewards in class/training, but in competition no treats or food or toys are allowed in the ring (though we're allowed verbal reinforcement). So... what SRW does works for him and his dogs, what I do works for me and my dogs. Everyone needs to decide for themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice work!


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

The really ironic thing was, as well trained and impressive as Dover was in the Rally ring, he was absolutely atrocious as far as loose leash walking went. Walking him was like running the Iditarod! BUT, that was all on me. Where we lived was at the intersection of two busy country roads with no shoulder, and there was no where safe to just walk out the door and go for a walk. And, because I didn’t make the time to put him in the car and take him somewhere we could practice loose leash walking, he was a pain to walk his whole life. So word to the wise, regardless of how you choose to train loose leash walking… practice, practice, practice!!


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## jwco (Jul 18, 2020)

SRW said:


> I use treats on a *very *limited basis in training for several reasons. Treats can work to keep a puppies attention and teach the meaning of a command. Puppies will learn very quickly and at a very young age to plant their butt when they hear 'Sit', then look at you anticipating a treat. That's good, it teaches the meaning of 'Sit' and to focus on the handler. it doesn't teach the whole concept of "Sit means Sit until told to do otherwise".
> A dog that has to be bribed with a treat may know the meaning of a command but that isn't obedience. Your dog needs to sit, come, heel, whatever because you told her to, not because of a treat.
> 
> 
> ...


I tend to agree with using limited treats for training because the focus seems to be more on the treat than the command. Do you have any books, guides or other resources that would be helpful in teaching this style of training? I'm thinking in terms of something documented to use as a basis and refer to as challenges come up. Thanks for your insight.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

pawsnpaca said:


> The really ironic thing was, as well trained and impressive as Dover was in the Rally ring, he was absolutely atrocious as far as loose leash walking went. Walking him was like running the Iditarod! BUT, that was all on me. Where we lived was at the intersection of two busy country roads with no shoulder, and there was no where safe to just walk out the door and go for a walk. And, because I didn’t make the time to put him in the car and take him somewhere we could practice loose leash walking, he was a pain to walk his whole life. So word to the wise, regardless of how you choose to train loose leash walking… practice, practice, practice!!


My last Golden’s loose leash walking deteriorated during each summer because it got too hot to take walks and we would swim. Every fall, it took a little while for him to get it again.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

pawsnpaca said:


> SRW - that video is so cool! So nice to see a pup so young doing what she was bred to do! 💕 Is it normal for a pup that young to be able to swim so well? I mean, the rest of it was really impressive too, but just the speed at which she was swimming was amazing! 😯


Thanks, Lily is a good swimmer. It isn't uncommon for a retriever her age to swim well. She was born in March which helps, she could start swimming right away at 9 or 10 weeks. The speed is because she is on a mission to retrieve.


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## Coastal Pup (Jan 30, 2021)

Amazing. I love this community so much. So much information to unpack and it’s really great to hear different opinions and methods, and things that did/didn’t work. And so much awe from both of those videos!! I am thinking that I’ll give the martingale a try, or at least a purchase, so that I have it for class. I’ll hold off on the Herm Springer for now until I can find a trainer who can really show me how it’s used correctly—I’m not a huge fan of my current teacher and while I’m sure she could show me, im not sure I’ll want to continue with her after this class, and I would want a *lot *of guidance using it. I also am thinking (hoping, really) that if I dedicate more time to the flat collar, and maybe go back to basics and start over, that the prong may not be needed. We’ll see if I want to rethink that in a month or so when Beckett is bigger/stronger-it‘ll depend on how much practice we can do.


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## Coastal Pup (Jan 30, 2021)

SRW said:


> . I prefer to use a slip leash and a riding crop, wiffle bat or piece of 1 inch plastic pipe with foam insulation taped to it. Before you panic, none of the above are for beating the dog. Start by teaching the heeling position when you are standing still. Next you turn away from the dog and command 'Here' and give a tug on the lead to reposition him. Turn toward the dog and command 'Heel' with a tap on the butt to encourage him to turn with you. Lots of short positive sessions with fun stuff before and after. Next start walking the dog on a path or sidewalk and keeping him in proper heeling position, if he lunges ahead command heel, give a tug on the lead and tap his front legs with the crop. Praise the dog for being in proper position and No No, tug or tap when out of position. NO TREATS, a dog walking nicely beside you in anticipation of a treat is just begging, not heeling.


I did see your response this morning before work got busy so Beckett and I were able to try this, less the riding crop/bat since I have neither - and the broom handle was too bulky to carry LOL. We had two 5-min, mini sessions today in the backyard with his slip lead, no treats. He did better than I was expecting, be it because he didn’t have food to distract him, I used his slip lead instead of his flat collar, or he woke up really wanting to please, but it was nice to see. I think the small sessions helped as well - he does well with tricks in short bursts so I will have to keep that in mind. 



SRW said:


> Big retrieve for a little girl, over 100 yards and mostly water. She can't see the bumper until she gets pretty close so it takes a lot of confidence to push all the way across. The first bumper drifted way to the right with the wind. Lily was being very good, not swimming toward the launcher, so I shot another one when she got close.
> She was dropping the bumper at the end, not something to worry about too much in the field, we'll take care of that in the yard. At this stage building desire and having fun are the main goals.


truly, truly amazing. I do hope you keep us all updated as Lily grows, even though she’s not a Golden.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

jwco said:


> I tend to agree with using limited treats for training because the focus seems to be more on the treat than the command. Do you have any books, guides or other resources that would be helpful in teaching this style of training? I'm thinking in terms of something documented to use as a basis and refer to as challenges come up. Thanks for your insight.


Here are a couple;
_*Training with Mike Lardy - V1*_





YBS Media







ybsmedia.com





_*Total Retriever Training - 2nd Edition*_





YBS Media







ybsmedia.com





Bill Hillmann's puppy training DVD is good also. 

Better than all of the above are dedicated, knowledgeable field trial people to train with.


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## Coastal Pup (Jan 30, 2021)

pawsnpaca said:


> I'm not a fan of prong collars (or anything that uses discomfort to control a dog) but they do have a place in particular situations (e.g., large powerful dog and weak/elderly owner), especially if they are only used short-term while working on training the behavior using more positive methods. I don't mind martingales at all, especially if they are sized to not close tighter than the snug circumference of the dogs neck (i.e., not being used as a "choke" collar). I like the chain ones like you pictured because I think the sound of the chain works as a signal not to pull even before the collar tightens.
> 
> There are many effective and positive ways to train loose leash walking. The key is consistency (another reason I don't like pinch collars - it seems unfair to "punish" the dog when we've failed to really put in the work to train the behavior in a more positive way). You may find it worthwhile to buy this webinar from Fenzi Dog Sports Academy and see if any of these methods work for you: Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - LS140: Stop Leash Pulling: Multiple Methods to Loose Leash Walking


Thank you for posting the webinar, I look forward to watching it. It’s funny that you mention the sound of the chain, his first instructor was able to snap it fairly loudly, but I could never replicate it. I did wonder if the noise had startled him into complying when she was using him as the class example.



pawsnpaca said:


> And... for what it's worth, this is my boy Dover earning his first Rally Excellent leg.  He was a very intense, high drive dog (he's almost 11 in this video) and the control needed for Rally was _really _hard for him (Agility is what _he _loved to do... he did Rally for me). He received a perfect 100 score for this run. Even at this point, he was getting a LOT of food rewards in class/training, but in competition no treats or food or toys are allowed in the ring (though we're allowed verbal reinforcement). So... what SRW does works for him and his dogs, what I do works for me and my dogs. Everyone needs to decide for themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This was so fun to watch! I’ve never seen a rally competition before. It’s great to see that he can get a perfect score without relying on treats, even if he’s practicing with them. I have slowly started to stop rewarding B for some of his basic commands (especially for leave it because if I treated him every time he left something he would be fat lol) during the day, but I do enjoy doing tricks and commands and hand feeding for meals. Maybe I’ll save mealtime for just the fun tricks


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## Coastal Pup (Jan 30, 2021)

diane0905 said:


> I prefer balanced training. I got nowhere doing circle methods and such. Made me dizzy. Lol You may want to do some research as to which age is best to use a Herm Sprenger as a tool. (I’d stick with that brand.)I don’t know if six months is too young. I’ve used one and they are excellent training tools. Whether they are abusive or not depends on the person holding the leash. I think damage can occur with a dog straining on a flat collar.
> 
> You will move along more quickly if your dog receives a clear message as to what is and isn’t allowed rather than him repeating the same inappropriate behavior over and over.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Diane. I’ll have to look into those videos, and find a trainer that I like and trust to help me with a prong collar. The ones Beckett has had so far are just meh, in my opinion. Maybe that’s me being stubborn again, lol, but I would like to make sure that _I _am comfortable with the person that‘s going to show me how to use a tool that could easily be misused. I don’t want to make a bad situation worse!


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## Coastal Pup (Jan 30, 2021)

AmberSunrise said:


> How old is your pup? And what does he/she weigh?
> 
> I strongly agree with the Fenzi course listed above, however if your dog is a pulling machine that you need to take safe control of, a prong or martingale collar may be needed. It does not have to be a forever collar - that is a flat collar can be switched to once your dog understands.
> 
> ...


Beckett is 6 months, and 40-50 pounds (haven’t weighed him in 5 weeks but he was 34 at the vet then). I would say that he’s definitely not dragging me down the street, as I am decently (IMO) strong enough to control him, but I won’t pretend that he couldn’t jerk my arm out of the socket if I was distracted and he saw a rabbit, and obviously I don’t want it to get to that - or worse. It’s great hearing what types of training and collars everyone is using, and that it really is not a one size fits all, and that all dogs are different, and can still achieve great results from their respective training tools/methods. I’ll take a look at the Fenzi course, it sounds like it a good one, thank you!


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## Coastal Pup (Jan 30, 2021)

goldielynn said:


> Oh boy, I think we're like a couple months older than you, and I can tell you now, if you don't nip it in the bud now, it's going to get worse.
> 
> Windsor's pulling is very situational. In new settings or excited settings (e.g., groomers, class), he pulls like crazy, and he's so, so strong that if we're not 100% paying attention, we would fall. In areas where he knows (the park, our block, other people's homes), he can loose leash walk like the best of them. So we switch between a flat leash collar, slip lead (it's just so easy to put on and gives a great correction without too much of a pinch..), and for the "excitable events," we use a gentle leader. Make sure that you don't get one that fits too tight because I've seen it leave marks on other goldens' faces. When he goes to shows, we put the gentle leader on him right when he exits the car. The gentle leader lets him know that he's working, and he cooperates beautifully. When he tries to jump or pull, it just brings his head down. We're also trying the new 3-1 harness that allows you to clip the leash to his front and we'll see how that goes.
> 
> While he's getting better, we still have to come to the realization that he's still a puppy, and when he sees a new dog friend or is in an excitable environment, he's going to want to go after the thing. Good thing is that his recall is getting better and better and half the time I can call him off his pulling, but other times, he honestly can't even hear us....


Thanks for the warning! Not what I want to hear, but definitely what I need to hear LOL. I have heard that the front clip harnesses make the pulling uncomfortable (vs making it easier for them to pull), so I would be interested to hear how that works with Windsor! Beckett’s Kurgo car harness has a front clip, actually, but it’s a tad big on him so if he pulls with that it just moves to the side and he’s still able to keep going.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Getting off subject a bit, here is a simple and fun ‘swim by/handling drill with Jake








May 12, 2021







youtube.com




At what point would a treat be given and do you think Jake would even want it?😎


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

SRW said:


> Getting off subject a bit, here is a simple and fun ‘swim by/handling drill with Jake
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can you rotate it? Hard to watch the video sideways.....


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> Can you rotate it? Hard to watch the video sideways.....


I'll try

Edit; I think it would be easier to just make another video.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

How about some "Treat Training"?


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

SRW said:


> Getting off subject a bit, here is a simple and fun ‘swim by/handling drill with Jake
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So fun! For a dog who loves to swim, that's heaven. His treat is being outdoors, jumping into the water and retrieving. Plus, pleasing you I'm sure. Is that your place? Is sure is pretty. It looks like what I've asked for for my 60th birthday, but my husband says I'm shooting too high.  

Love the treats video also. I can get Logan to balance it on his nose, but he just drops it when I let him release it instead of catching it in the air. I wonder if I use a bigger treat like a milkbone size if that would give him a better visual...


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

diane0905 said:


> Is that your place? Is sure is pretty. It looks like what I've asked for for my 60th birthday, but my husband says I'm shooting too high.


It is my place, thank you. 



diane0905 said:


> Love the treats video also. I can get Logan to balance it on his nose, but he just drops it when I let him release it instead of catching it in the air. I wonder if I use a bigger treat like a milkbone size if that would give him a better visual...


Some dogs catch on to it quick and some don't. Lily caught on faster than any dog I have ever had, 3 or 4 days I think. Not sure the size of the treat matters, sometimes I use a single cheerio. 
Having more than one dog helps because they worry that the other might get it.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Jake is obviously having fun doing the swim by drill, it is everything a retriever loves.
With boring stuff like sitting, heeling, recall, etc. it is up to you to make it fun. Short sessions, especially for pups. If you act and sound like you are having fun, your dog will have fun too.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

SRW said:


> She isn't a Golden but she is a retriever and we are training without treats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm impressed at the water entry from such a distance for such a young puppy. Go Lily!!


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

A lot of people seem to get lost in the forest when talking about specific training techniques. Our primary focus should be on getting the pup trained to be obedient. This basic training is necessary to protect your dog from harm. A poorly trained dog or untrained dog is AT RISK! 

Having a dog that will 'recall' when called, sit when asked (both good if your dog gets lose), heel when walking on lead (so the dog can be exercised properly), and 'Leave it' and/or 'Drop it' (Have you ever dropped a prescription pill?) when asked! These and a* few *other basic commands that makes our wonderful companions better dogs and safer dogs.....

All people who train must use a method that they are comfortable with, what works for one person or dog, many not work for the next pair!

So newbie's... research and consider all your training options. Do your research and homework on different methods, and better yet, take an obedience class or two and learn with your dog how to train obedience....Good Luck


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

3goldens2keep said:


> A lot of people seem to get lost in the forest when talking about specific training techniques. Our primary focus should be on getting the pup trained to be obedient. This basic training is necessary to protect your dog from harm. A poorly trained dog or untrained dog is AT RISK!
> 
> Having a dog that will 'recall' when called, sit when asked (both good if your dog gets lose), heel when walking on lead (so the dog can be exercised properly), and 'Leave it' and/or 'Drop it' (Have you ever dropped a prescription pill?) when asked! These and a* few *other basic commands that makes our wonderful companions better dogs and safer dogs.....
> 
> ...


Great post.
I would add this; Obedient dogs obey your commands from 100+ yards away just the same as if they were 1 foot from you.


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## Goldenblitz (Feb 8, 2021)

SRW said:


> Great post.
> I would add this; Obedient dogs obey your commands from 100+ yards away just the same as if they were 1 foot from you.


love the videos of Jake and Lily. I have a golden puppy a little younger than Lily who is a great swimmer but doesn’t seem to like to swim despite being an excellent swimmer. He also doesn’t seem interested in retrieving. I’ve been watching the Hillman videos and trying to get him excited but he so far isnt excited. Do you have any suggestions to get him excited to retrieve? He’s a field bred golden from hunting pedigrees so I am optimistic that he will eventually get retrieving.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Goldenblitz said:


> love the videos of Jake and Lily. I have a golden puppy a little younger than Lily who is a great swimmer but doesn’t seem to like to swim despite being an excellent swimmer. He also doesn’t seem interested in retrieving. I’ve been watching the Hillman videos and trying to get him excited but he so far isnt excited. Do you have any suggestions to get him excited to retrieve? He’s a field bred golden from hunting pedigrees so I am optimistic that he will eventually get retrieving.


Have you tried any birds such as a live pigeon?
A duck or pheasant wing well also usually get a pups interest.
Work on getting him to chase anything you can, that is the first half of a retrieve and the most fun for a dog. Hopefully you can get him interested then don’t overdo it with the birds want to retrieve anything else.
Do anything you can to make it fun for your pup and always leave them wanting more.
Jake retrieved well from the start but he wasn’t crazy about it. Other things would capture his interest. Pups need to get that curiosity out of their system. Try going for a walk in a field or near A pond or river. Let him explore all he wants and just once or twice throw something for him to retrieve. Do this for a few weeks slowly increasing the number of retrieves and making them the highlight of his day every day.


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## Selkie (May 9, 2021)

We are having some selective hearing challenges with Darwin. He is super smart and has learned a lot but definitely has a "I'll listen when I feel like it" streak. Granted he feels like it 85% of the time, but the other 15% can be pretty frustrating, and often occur in situations where listening is most important. i.e. when he's playing with other dogs, when there are other people around, etc. He is 15 weeks old. How much of it is just that he's a puppy? How solid should we expect his recall and attention to be at his age? I don't want to err on the side of being too lax about it, but I also don't want to have unfair expectations of him. 

Any suggestions for how to really get that recall down and get him to pay attention in the face of really fun distractions like puppy friends and potential people friends?


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## goldielynn (Sep 5, 2020)

Coastal Pup said:


> Thanks for the warning! Not what I want to hear, but definitely what I need to hear LOL. I have heard that the front clip harnesses make the pulling uncomfortable (vs making it easier for them to pull), so I would be interested to hear how that works with Windsor! Beckett’s Kurgo car harness has a front clip, actually, but it’s a tad big on him so if he pulls with that it just moves to the side and he’s still able to keep going.


We tried the front clip harness yesterday -- took him to Venice Beach. And totally night and day when compared to previous beach trips when he was littler (our little monster would drag me all throughout the sand having me off balance). I fully support it! It gives him just a little tug back when he wants to go too much ahead of me, and with that little tug, he comes back. It's a correction that more serves as a reminder than a firm correction, so it's great!


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## Coastal Pup (Jan 30, 2021)

goldielynn said:


> We tried the front clip harness yesterday -- took him to Venice Beach. And totally night and day when compared to previous beach trips when he was littler (our little monster would drag me all throughout the sand having me off balance). I fully support it! It gives him just a little tug back when he wants to go too much ahead of me, and with that little tug, he comes back. It's a correction that more serves as a reminder than a firm correction, so it's great!


Thanks for the update! Glad to hear that it worked well- especially in Venice where there’s just...a lot going on usually LOL.


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## Goldenblitz (Feb 8, 2021)

SRW said:


> Have you tried any birds such as a live pigeon?
> A duck or pheasant wing well also usually get a pups interest.
> Work on getting him to chase anything you can, that is the first half of a retrieve and the most fun for a dog. Hopefully you can get him interested then don’t overdo it with the birds want to retrieve anything else.
> Do anything you can to make it fun for your pup and always leave them wanting more.
> Jake retrieved well from the start but he wasn’t crazy about it. Other things would capture his interest. Pups need to get that curiosity out of their system. Try going for a walk in a field or near A pond or river. Let him explore all he wants and just once or twice throw something for him to retrieve. Do this for a few weeks slowly increasing the number of retrieves and making them the highlight of his day every day.


Thank you very much. Great advice. I haven’t tried birds yet but will. He is definitely not interested in his bumpers but has shown a little interest in a ball that he came upon in a field we were walking in. I threw it for him a few times and he did retrieve it. We did that a few times He also will retrieve some of his soft toys in the house when I toss them. I really appreciate the advice.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Goldenblitz said:


> Thank you very much. Great advice. I haven’t tried birds yet but will. He is definitely not interested in his bumpers but has shown a little interest in a ball that he came upon in a field we were walking in. I threw it for him a few times and he did retrieve it. We did that a few times He also will retrieve some of his soft toys in the house when I toss them. I really appreciate the advice.


That's great, whatever a pup likes to retrieve is fine (just don't throw any sticks for him). As his enthusiasm builds you will be able to incorporate bumpers. Soft toys are great for retrieving in the house. Our local Farm and Home store has stuffed toys with squeakers and even ducks that quack when squeezed. They really capture a pups attention. I don't allow pups to play with them unless we are playing fetch together. Don't want them thinking the toy is theirs, it is your toy and sometimes you let the pup retrieve it for you.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Selkie said:


> We are having some selective hearing challenges with Darwin. He is super smart and has learned a lot but definitely has a "I'll listen when I feel like it" streak. Granted he feels like it 85% of the time, but the other 15% can be pretty frustrating, and often occur in situations where listening is most important. i.e. when he's playing with other dogs, when there are other people around, etc. He is 15 weeks old. How much of it is just that he's a puppy? How solid should we expect his recall and attention to be at his age? I don't want to err on the side of being too lax about it, but I also don't want to have unfair expectations of him.
> 
> Any suggestions for how to really get that recall down and get him to pay attention in the face of really fun distractions like puppy friends and potential people friends?


Long line  And start at a further distance from the distraction(s), I would reward heavily for a crisp recall, and gradually move closer. Either hold or step on the line so you have control.

At 15 weeks he should be pretty solid, although as adolescence hits you need to really start working on the recall again. 

Calling away from other dogs should probably be done in a class situation where the instructor and other teams are working towards the same goals until he starts to realize Come means Come (or here etc) if your pup does not have a foundation of coming. Use a leash/long line when you cannot control the environment.

You need to be able to set him up for correct responses that can be rewarded or if you are a traditional trainer, for correction/punishment for failure... btw: I use personal play for recalls far more often than treats. Even if you are a traditional trainer, remember to be fair to your dog - this was hammered into me during the 80s but applies to reward based training as well: work distance, duration & distraction each separately. More clearly, if you decide to work distance, lessen all distractions and then slowly introduce the distractions at that same distance.

The other side is preventing your dog from making bad choices : for a dog who is not solid on his recall, calling your dog from play with other dogs is setting your dog up for failure and not really fair, if you need your dog to come, go & get him so he does not get to practice not coming.

You can also use tricks and other cues to prevent the situations where your dog may refuse to come. He sees a favored person approaching, put him on a sit. Person can only interact with your dog if he is sitting. A solid down command would also work. My dogs, even my puppy (20 weeks old) default to coming to heel while we are hiking or walking and people and or dogs come towards us. They are simply not allowed to play with dogs I do not personally know. So it never becomes a habit to expect being able to play with strange dogs.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Selkie said:


> We are having some selective hearing challenges with Darwin. He is super smart and has learned a lot but definitely has a "I'll listen when I feel like it" streak. Granted he feels like it 85% of the time, but the other 15% can be pretty frustrating, and often occur in situations where listening is most important. i.e. when he's playing with other dogs, when there are other people around, etc. He is 15 weeks old. How much of it is just that he's a puppy? How solid should we expect his recall and attention to be at his age? I don't want to err on the side of being too lax about it, but I also don't want to have unfair expectations of him.
> 
> Any suggestions for how to really get that recall down and get him to pay attention in the face of really fun distractions like puppy friends and potential people friends?


That's pretty good for a 15 week old puppy.
A general rule of training is, don't give a command you can't enforce. 
As mentioned a long line works great. With small puppies I like parachute cord. At 15 weeks you may want 1/4 or 3/8 rope.
It is very important that your pup be very solid on sit before moving to recall or any other command. Sit means sit but it also means pay attention, focus on the handler for further instruction. 15 week old pups don't grasp all of that but every day they gain a little. 
I would also suggest training sit to whistle in addition to the voice command. This is a nice whistle for obedience and yard training.








Roy Gonia Pea-less Whistle


Roy Gonia Pea-less Whistle. $3.99.Pea-less version of the Roy Gonia "Special" whistle. Orange and black, small, similar to the "Commander" (red) except louder and with a slightly lower pitch. Since 1972. Call Steve Snell (800-624-6378) 100% Satisfaction Guaranteed.




www.gundogsupply.com




A toot from a whistle doesn't have to be loud to overcome distractions and get a pups attention. Much better than yelling to get his attention. Volume of voice and whistle is another training tool if used correctly.


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## Goldenblitz (Feb 8, 2021)

SRW said:


> That's great, whatever a pup likes to retrieve is fine (just don't throw any sticks for him). As his enthusiasm builds you will be able to incorporate bumpers. Soft toys are great for retrieving in the house. Our local Farm and Home store has stuffed toys with squeakers and even ducks that quack when squeezed. They really capture a pups attention. I don't allow pups to play with them unless we are playing fetch together. Don't want them thinking the toy is theirs, it is your toy and sometimes you let the pup retrieve it for you.


We have a few soft toys that squeak and a duck that squeaks. I will put them up and use them for retrieving and as special toys.


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## Selkie (May 9, 2021)

AmberSunrise said:


> Long line  And start at a further distance from the distraction(s), I would reward heavily for a crisp recall, and gradually move closer. Either hold or step on the line so you have control.
> 
> At 15 weeks he should be pretty solid, although as adolescence hits you need to really start working on the recall again.


Thanks! That reminds me that we HAVE a long line. I'll start taking him in the backyard with it. It was super hot for a bit so we weren't able to take him out as much as we wanted, but it's been much cooler this week so we should really get him out there during training times to work through distractions. It's the best option we have right now--we've been warned that not only is this a bad place for Parvo generally, but that this year is a bad year even for here. We've basically been told not to put him on the ground anywhere that we don't KNOW is safe. I just can't wait til he's fully vaccinated and we can consistently work on how he responds to strangers and dogs without it having to be a big production to figure out where we're going--we can just go to the park across the street from our home!

We tend to be mostly reward based, though I've noticed that he finds attention very rewarding too, so we mostly don't treat him anymore for sit and down, since he's pretty good at them. One thing I've GOT to stop doing in situations with other dogs is letting how other owners react to their dogs make me doubt myself. 90% of the dogs I meet are not as well-behaved as I want Darwin to be, so that must mean 90% of owners aren't doing things the way I should. He's signed up for Puppy Obedience at a local AKC obedience club starting end of August and I can't wait. 



SRW said:


> That's pretty good for a 15 week old puppy.
> A general rule of training is, don't give a command you can't enforce.
> As mentioned a long line works great. With small puppies I like parachute cord. At 15 weeks you may want 1/4 or 3/8 rope.
> It is very important that your pup be very solid on sit before moving to recall or any other command. Sit means sit but it also means pay attention, focus on the handler for further instruction. 15 week old pups don't grasp all of that but every day they gain a little.
> ...


Ooo, thank you! A whistle is SUCH a good idea. I really hate yelling in general--with a whistle I won't worry about whether he's even heard me or not. And I won't risk using 'come' during a conversation and confusing him. We use 'okay' as a release word and I have definitely inadvertently released him a few times by saying it in conversation with my husband after I've put him in a stay. Oops.

He is really good at sit ... until there are distractions! Definitely something to work on.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Selkie said:


> One thing I've GOT to stop doing in situations with other dogs is letting how other owners react to their dogs make me doubt myself. 90% of the dogs I meet are not as well-behaved as I want Darwin to be, so that must mean 90% of owners aren't doing things the way I should.


Just the simple fact that you realize this places you well above average as a dog trainer, or at least the potential to be one. Many people just "don't get it". That is how my training friends and I describe quite a few handlers. It isn't meant to be mean or judgemental, just a factual description. We try to help them, point out the errors they are making and what they need to do differently but the next day they revert back to square one.



Selkie said:


> He is really good at sit ... until there are distractions! Definitely something to work on.


Yep, just introduce the distractions in a controlled situation. You need to set him up to both fail and succeed so corrections and rewards are clearly understood.

An easy way to start enforcing sit is to get the pup excited playing and randomly toot the whistle or give a voice command. Praise him for sitting but keep him sitting briefly until you release him to play again.

When he gets that down make him sit then leave his sight, go to another room, if outside walk around your yard shed, some bushes, the house........ Briefly at first, longer as he gets the idea.


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## Selkie (May 9, 2021)

SRW said:


> Just the simple fact that you realize this places you well above average as a dog trainer, or at least the potential to be one. Many people just "don't get it". That is how my training friends and I describe quite a few handlers. It isn't meant to be mean or judgemental, just a factual description. We try to help them, point out the errors they are making and what they need to do differently but the next day they revert back to square one.
> 
> 
> Yep, just introduce the distractions in a controlled situation. You need to set him up to both fail and succeed so corrections and rewards are clearly understood.
> ...


I had basically this convo with my husband the other day after someone suggested all puppies should have no-pull harnesses or gentle leaders or what have you. I feel like many owners are fine with that, and no judgment here, as long as they are happy and their dog doesn't harm anything or anyone or itself. But I want Darwin to learn not to pull, not just have a tool that prevents his pulling. Essentially, Darwin is a pet, not a working dog. But I want him to feel like a working dog, in terms of being tired at the end of the day and being biddable and trustworthy with people, other animals, and in new situations.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Selkie said:


> But I want Darwin to learn not to pull, not just have a tool that prevents his pulling.



Glad to hear that.

Something interesting, at this years NARC there were over 150 dogs entered. The majority could be described as fire breathing maniacs about retrieving. I did not see a single harness at the event.

When it is their turn to run, the handler and dog must walk to the line, no collar or lead allowed.The dog must then remain at heel until the birds are thrown and the judges signal that the dog can be sent.

On a couple tests the dog must honor as another dog retrieves. "Honor" means sit at heel in a designated place near the working dog and remain sitting while the birds are thrown and shot and the working dog is sent to retrieve.

Kind of makes walking at heel with no distractions seem like small potatoes doesn't it?


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

If you want ideas on what we mean by distractions using a wide variety of things, it is more commonly known as proofing. The idea is to start in a quiet environment and gradually expand your pup's understanding by layering experience. Dogs are situational, and do not generalize easily - so a recall in your kitchen is not the same as a recall in your yard, or a recall at a park, or a recall at any type of dog event. So even very experienced trainers need to regularly 'go back to kindergarten' in new environments as they build their dogs' understanding of any given task. 

I will give you an example of what my pup will be introduced to today (I am on vacation). I have rental at a facility she is comfortable in, she has the distraction of my dogs and often friend's dogs working or being crated around her. Distractions also often include whistle & pile work (field training) going on outside or obedience work in the next ring. I am still working on basics so ... her sit stay I can leave her, turn around and return to her or call her at a distance of 40 feet fairly reliably ... today she will be introduced to a new factor - I will put a squeaky toy in my hand and squeak it once I turn around ... I will reduce my distance to 6 feet and gradually increase the distance again. And this will be done in front of a mirror so I can watch her body language to help prevent a break  This will be interspersed with recalls -- should she stay or should she come? this will help her learn that a stay in position is required unless another cue is given.

So please don't think there is anything wrong with your dog or your training if your dog does NOT come 1st call when he is excitedly chasing a squirrel if a massive foundation of built up experiences has not yet happened. The leash/rope can be your best friend while training a puppy in an unconfined area where you cannot control the environment.


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

SRW said:


> Glad to hear that.
> 
> Something interesting, at this years NARC there were over 150 dogs entered. The majority could be described as fire breathing maniacs about retrieving. I did not see a single harness at the event.
> 
> ...


I bet most of these dogs were trained using e collars and or prong or choke collars! I have been around field training dogs for over 25 years and their trainers....and most use these tools...! Yet in all hunt tests, field trials, and NARC type events, no collars or harnesses are allowed...


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

3goldens2keep said:


> I bet most of these dogs were trained using e collars and or prong or choke collars!


I guarantee that every one of them wears an e collar every training day and they love it. Properly trained retrievers know, when the e collar gets put on the fun is about to start.


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

SRW said:


> I guarantee that every one of them wears an e collar every training day and they love it. Properly trained retrievers know, when the e collar gets put on the fun is about to start.


I agree, both on my Golden's love getting their e collar on knowing we are going hunting, or training! All our dogs are bred and born to work in the field....special they are!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Having a well trained dog, whether companion or working or performance, will open so many doors for you  Darwin & you will be welcome in so many places and have so much fun together -- all dogs should be so lucky as to have owners who are willing to put the time and effort into training their dog to be the ultimate -- a 'good dog'



Selkie said:


> I had basically this convo with my husband the other day after someone suggested all puppies should have no-pull harnesses or gentle leaders or what have you. I feel like many owners are fine with that, and no judgment here, as long as they are happy and their dog doesn't harm anything or anyone or itself. But I want Darwin to learn not to pull, not just have a tool that prevents his pulling. Essentially, Darwin is a pet, not a working dog. But I want him to feel like a working dog, in terms of being tired at the end of the day and being biddable and trustworthy with people, other animals, and in new situations.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

3goldens2keep said:


> my Golden's love getting their e collar on knowing we are going hunting, training, *or running Hunt Tests!*


Best to leave the collar in the truck when running a hunt test or you will be going home early.


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

SRW said:


> Best to leave the collar in the truck when running a hunt test or you will be going home early.
> 
> 
> Obviously a brain fart! Comes with the age...


 I fixed it!


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

Loose Leash Walking advice from a trusted source


https://veterinarypartner.vin.com/default.aspx?pid=19239&catId=102897&Id=10334814


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Thought I'd pop in here and show a (similar) collar/leash that I use with my dogs.

The collar had gems on it. I picked because it's pretty. 

The leashes are strong rope + have that soft cushy handle.

When you go out for a walk with your dog - pick a quiet place and a quiet time to walk. I would not suggest the following for a busy city street where other people and cars are close by.

Think quiet rural road or suburban neighborhood, if not that then hopefully a park that's wide and quiet so you and your dog can both enjoy your walk.

With my guys, I usually have a 6 foot leash and let the dogs walk 6 feet ahead of me at the end of their leashes.

Now the babies I have right now are very soft on the leashes and do not pull.

Their dad - he did pull on occasion, and this is why I switched to leashes that had softer handles for my poor hands + I switched from a standard 2 foot leash to a 6 foot leash. A 6 foot leash allows for slack in the leash for those dogs that like to be leading the pack. A little slack in the leash means the dogs are not encouraged to pull (some reason or other, tight leashes encourage pulling).

You obviously have to be good with leash handling to draw your dog in when a car comes through or other people are passing, but those are times when I train my dogs to shift off to the side and wait before we continue walking.

I will say that I was able to walk all 3 dogs (including dad who sometimes pulled) on this rope lead and regular collars.

The training collars as discussed previously here - they serve a purpose, but I will say that if you do not have the time to be paying attention and working nonstop while walking your dog, then it is unfair using these training collars. They may work, but while there is no actual training involved you will have a difficult time weaning off these collars. 

My particular take is twofold -

1. If I ever decide to use a prong collar (or some other) for obedience/refinement reasons, I do not want my dog so used to wearing that collar day to day and allowed to pull or otherwise exhibit undesired behaviors while wearing that collar. Because from that position, the collar is basically ruined and I need to switch to something that is "stronger". 

2. Any time I correct my dogs.... I pair that correction with positive/reward/praise. Which is fine during a 5 minute training session, but exhausting if you are walking for 1+ hour with the dogs. Me personally, I use walks for destressing or daydreaming. I'm not paying close attention to the dogs other than making sure they are not limping or pulling back. It's unfair for that reason putting a collar on them that is a constant correction. 














https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/bond-and-co-pink-jewel-leather-collar


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## A Golden to love (Mar 6, 2021)

Thank you to everyone who posted to this thread. I will continue to follow it.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

Our Stig ran through a martingale like it was a shoelace. Tried three different harnesses. Two different R+ training facilities. Had many large breed dogs and never had such a challenging pup. Found a field dog trainer who assuaged my concerns about using a prong collar (so much more humane than reefing and yanking or that constant pull). He literally needed about 4 corrections- totally respects it, isn’t afraid of it and he is walking on a slack leash past dogs, people, seagulls, you name it. This was done with careful instruction from a field dog trainer- so I would urge you, if you go this route, to get someone to show you how to fit it and where to place it. It needs to be snug, and it needs to be high. Snap it on your arm and you will see that it really is more of a surprize than at all painful. We will also be working with this trainer with an ecollar- again- my ignorance had been feeding my bias. Very adjustable, needs guidance from an experienced handler- feels like someone tapping you with a pencil tip on setting 3. Can also be used with a vibration or a tone- but key here is finding experienced instruction. Within three days- Stig is a happier dog with the prong collar (haven’t started the ecollar yet- that begins in 2 weeks). He isn’t at all afraid or adverse to having it put on- he is happy- tail is wgging and he will, we think, ultimately, have a much happier life. Stig needed balanced training- which definitely uses positive reinforcement BUT also uses humane, educated correction. All dogs are different.


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