# Your Opinion on this Breeder - Red Retriever



## Quinn Pertuit (Oct 20, 2018)

Hi - we are about to commit to a female puppy from this breeder's litter and I want to get a final opinion from you guys on this forum.

We are looking forward to getting a dark red retriever (we had our happy boy Shelby for over 14 years).

*Breeder:* Windy Knoll Goldens
*Location:* Benson, VT
*Sire: *Thunder Ridge Goldens Sampson

AKC #SR50570006
DOB: June 13, 2008
OFA Hips: Fair
OFA Elbows: Normal
OFA Heart & Eyes: Normal
*Dam:* Windy Knoll Clara Barton

AKC #SR95923507
DOB: October 25, 2016
PennHIP: Pending
OFA Heart: Normal
*Price:* $1800

This is Clara's (the Dam) first litter. She had the puppies on November 5th. She had 9 puppies. The breeder had already taken 8 deposits and we were on call if the litter was larger than 8 - the litter is 9 so there is a female puppy for us!

Are there any red flags or would you recommend this breeder? The only thing we have been concerned about is the breeder had the puppies on Nov 5 but has only shared the three photos here - we've asked for more photos but they said they will send us more on Nov 12. Is that normal? Do breeders usually not post pictures of each puppy until after a week or so?

Breeder's website can be found by searching for Windy Knolls Goldens, located in Fair Haven, VT. There you can find information on the dam and sire and sales contract.

UPDATE: Wanted to post an update - we went with our gut and ended up getting the sweetest red retriever from Windy Knoll goldens. Noma was born November 5th 2018 and we picked her up January 10th 2019. However when we first got her, she was extremely sick and we reached out to the breeder. We took her to the vet regularly and have taken her about every other week. The vet gave us hill’s science diet and metronidazol to help her and we washed all her bedding, kennel, and toys over and over every few days. The breeder was pretty honest when we reached out and said all of their dogs have the same symptoms and that two dogs, one of the mothers, had just passed away from it (believe he said the dehydration was a big cause). Noma repeatedly has the symptoms of giardia and regular visits to the vet for tests sometimes test positive for giardia, other times negative but still the same symptoms. We spent a lot with vet expenses and at its worst my wife and I alternated days at home to take care of her for several months). She is now on Royal Canine Ultramino which seems to help, but occasionally she goes back to the same symptoms. She is 14 months old now, but looks very small at 48 lbs. Super sweet and beautiful.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I personally wouldn't buy from this breeder. The Dam (Clara) doesn't have sufficient Heart clearance as it's by practitioner and not a cardiologist (as per GRCA CoE) and the Hips apparently are still pending (PennHip) and nothing else is listed on OFA like eye, nor OFA hips/elbows. This means they bred the Dam before she had her hip/elbow clearances.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I see a huge red flag, neither parent appears to have any health certifications. The dam turned 2 while in whelp so she was too young for hips or elbows when bred. She could have had heart and eyes after she turned one but even that wasn't done. I can't find the stud anywhere one OFA either. With no titles and no health certifications $1,800 is way too much.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I have to really search for this guys registered name.Sampson's reg name is *Sir Sampson Of Thunder Ridge*


https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1622389


The eyes are almost 4 years our of date as well as then have to be each year and within a year of the breeding to be considered up to date. Last one was done in 2014 from what I see. This is if we are talkign about the same dog which i believe we are.


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## Quinn Pertuit (Oct 20, 2018)

Here are the AKC numbers. I found the Stud on OFFA. Let me know if this helps and if you still think the same. Thanks for your help!
AKC #SR50570006
AKC #SR95923507


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> I have to really search for this guys registered name.Sampson's reg name is *Sir Sampson Of Thunder Ridge*
> 
> 
> https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1622389
> ...


Good sleuthing!

OP, note that the sire is the dams great uncle. Her grandfather is his half brother.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

I would look elsewhere.


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## Quinn Pertuit (Oct 20, 2018)

What does that mean? The sire has his clearances and you are saying he is the great-uncle of Clara. Is that bad for the health of the litter if the sire has his clearances? https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health/for-breeders/understanding-canine-genetics/inbreeding-and-health/


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I'm also not a fan of a breeder's contract that only allows for another puppy if you need to return the pup due to congenital problem (may need to be put down). as a breeder that is breeding dogs that are under age and that don't have full clearances tells me they expect a few dogs not to not be as healthy and it's easy to cover that "guarantee" with just another puppy with potentially the same issues.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Quinn Pertuit said:


> What does that mean? The sire has his clearances and you are saying he is the great-uncle of Clara. Is that bad for the health of the litter if the sire has his clearances? https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/he...anding-canine-genetics/inbreeding-and-health/



The Sire isn't bad per say but he isn't up to date. Eye have to be done yearly and within 1 year of the time of breeding and his last eyes were done in 2014. But the Dam is not a dog that should have been bred period. You can't do hips until 24 months. you have to have them done BEFORE the breeding takes place. The Dam was under 24 months of age at the time of breeding, which regardless of clearances, should never be bred until after 2 years of age. This breeder is not following the GRCA Code of Ethics. Also, the Dam's heart is done by a practitioner NOT a cardiologist which mean s it is insufficient. A practitioner is very unlikely to be equipped with the skills or knowledge to accurately detect small issues with the heart, only a noticeable murmur.


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## Quinn Pertuit (Oct 20, 2018)

Swampcollie said:


> I would look elsewhere.


Can you provide more detail? If the male has all his clearances and the female has one of hers. I know on this forum I read that both parents should have all 4 clearances but that has been very difficult to find for a red retriever. Even the breeders without all 4 clearances price up to $2500 for the puppy.


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## Quinn Pertuit (Oct 20, 2018)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> The Sire isn't bad per say but he isn't up to date. Eye have to be done yearly and within 1 year of the time of breeding and his last eyes were done in 2014. But the Dam is not a dog that should have been bred period. You can't do hips until 24 months. you have to have them done BEFORE the breeding takes place. The Dam was under 24 months of age at the time of breeding, which regardless of clearances, should never be bred until after 2 years of age. This breeder is not following the GRCA Code of Ethics. Also, the Dam's heart is done by a practitioner NOT a cardiologist which mean s it is insufficient. A practitioner is very unlikely to be equipped with the skills or knowledge to accurately detect small issues with the heart, only a noticeable murmur.


Thank you - I've run into other breeders (e.g. Raya from Winter Creek Ranch Goldens in Oregon) with the same scenario (the dam not having hip clearance b/c she was bred before getting them). 

I'll reach out to the breeder today and ask a few questions - one being the sire's eye clearance and the other being a practitioner exam instead of a cardiologist on the dam. Our last retriever we got from a shelter in Memphis when I was 10 years old and since he lived to 14 I never thought about health clearances until we started researching to get a new puppy this year.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Just for reference, I don't have puppies, my last litter sold for the same as they're asking. The dam is an AKC Senior Hunter and trains and competes in AKC Obedience. The sire is a Canadian Champion, Grand Master Hunter and Grand Master Obedience Trial Champion. I think emotions are pushing you to find a puppy now, but there are better options out there. Heck if these puppies were priced accordingly I wouldn't blame you if you went ahead and just put the extra money toward insurance. But I hate that there are people out there making a living off of dogs and not even bothering to try to better the breed.


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## Quinn Pertuit (Oct 20, 2018)

ArchersMom said:


> Just for reference, I don't have puppies, my last litter sold for the same as they're asking. The dam is an AKC Senior Hunter and trains and competes in AKC Obedience. The sire is a Canadian Champion, Grand Master Hunter and Grand Master Obedience Trial Champion. I think emotions are pushing you to find a puppy now, but there are better options out there. Heck if these puppies were pricef accordingly I wouldn't blame you if you went ahead and just put the extra money toward insurance. But I hate that there are people out there making a living off of dogs and not even bothering to try to better the breed.


That is good to know - thank you. I am not pushed to make a decision I'm not comfortable with, but I am ready to pull the trigger as soon as everything aligns. We have been far through the process with another breeder and decided not to go through with it. We felt comfortable with the other breeder that did not have hip clearances on the female because she had her first litter prior to getting the exam - but we were able to see the history of that breeder and photos of their annual meetups with the owners to make us more comfortable with the long-term health of the litter.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Quinn Pertuit said:


> Thank you - I've run into other breeders (e.g. Raya from Winter Creek Ranch Goldens in Oregon) with the same scenario (the dam not having hip clearance b/c she was bred before getting them).
> 
> I'll reach out to the breeder today and ask a few questions - one being the sire's eye clearance and the other being a practitioner exam instead of a cardiologist on the dam. Our last retriever we got from a shelter in Memphis when I was 10 years old and since he lived to 14 I never thought about health clearances until we started researching to get a new puppy this year.



Breeders that are not following the GRCA CoE should probably not be charging $1800 for a pup, maybe $1200. The point is if you are OK with not having all clearances, you shouldn't be paying a price that should be reflecting they are doing all the clearances. I understand that that people may not be able to afford $2k+ for a dog but you are seriously risking a lot of heart ache, plus keeping that segment of breeders (ones that don't breed ethically with clearances) in business and continuing to further hurting the breed as a whole


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

For me, following the guidelines around ethical breeding is the bare minimum for me. So if one of the dogs is being bred before age 2, or before all clearances are done, that's a no go for me. If the breeder isn't willing to do that bare minimum, if they don't care enough to do that, it suggests to me that they probably aren't doing careful socialization and selection of puppy homes, etc. either. You can do better. There ARE red dogs out there being produced by ethical, careful breeders.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Health clearances are not the end all, they are the beginning. There is a lot more that goes into breeding nice dogs than just health clearances. Why a particular sire and dam are paired should be of great concern to a breeder. (Not because he was here and he was convenient.)


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

If the dam was not tested before having puppies, how do you know if she has hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, heart issues or eye disease?

Suppose the dam is tested later and doesn't pass? Then you have a puppy at higher risk of inheriting those defects.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Quinn Pertuit said:


> Can you provide more detail? If the male has all his clearances and the female has one of hers. I know on this forum I read that both parents should have all 4 clearances but that has been very difficult to find for a red retriever. Even the breeders without all 4 clearances price up to $2500 for the puppy.


There are plenty of breeders that breed goldens that are usually red in color. There is no guarantee in color, but some lines have more red in them. There are plenty of those breeders that do all 4 clearances and DNA clearances on their breedings. Why settle for less?

For a dark golden retriever look at:
Top Brass
Thistle Rock
Thunderstruck
To new a few. All of the above will have litters this winter or next year.


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## GoldenMom999 (Apr 14, 2017)

Quinn Pertuit said:


> That is good to know - thank you. I am not pushed to make a decision I'm not comfortable with, but I am ready to pull the trigger as soon as everything aligns. We have been far through the process with another breeder and decided not to go through with it. We felt comfortable with the other breeder that did not have hip clearances on the female because she had her first litter prior to getting the exam - but we were able to see the history of that breeder and photos of their annual meetups with the owners to make us more comfortable with the long-term health of the litter.


This appears to be a puppy mill type place. My concern is that there are no pictures of the housing for the adult dogs either on FB or on their website. No talk of their care…just marketing…red dogs, English Creme crosses…non-refundable deposits. Posing kids with puppies in pictures…
The only picture of housing I could find was of a recent birth and there is a video from you tube. The dogs look like they are housed/born in little shacks or just set up in the shacks for pictures. I wouldn’t get a puppy from these people.
https://www.windyknollgoldens.com/2018/11/07/claras-newborn-puppies/




On google earth there is a house with no large outbuildings, just little shacks. But there is a property across the street with a large building that could house a lot of dogs.


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## GoldenMom999 (Apr 14, 2017)

I found an old video...from back in 2013...not my idea of how to raise puppies. They have 5 pregnant girls now...so they probably built more pens.






This pix is from the video...dogs as livestock just doesn't work for me.


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## Quinn Pertuit (Oct 20, 2018)

Hi - I just received the PennHIP certification for Clara. What do you guys think?










https://imgur.com/a/evME14V

*Sire: *Thunder Ridge Goldens Sampson

AKC #SR50570006

DOB: June 13, 2008

OFA Hips: Fair

OFA Elbows: Normal

OFA Heart & Eyes: Normal

*Dam:* Windy Knoll Clara Barton

AKC #SR95923507

DOB: October 25, 2016
LIST][PennHIP: *Attached*[/LIST]

OFA Heart: Normal


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I'm curious why you asked for opinions and received valuable information from some very respected breeders yet you just don't seem willing to give this breeder up. You couldn't pay me to take one of these puppies. I know what hip & elbow surgeries cost. I've read the post about 10 wk old puppies dying from heart conditions. I have a dog with serious inherited eye issues from a breeder that forged the eye exams... 3 months after the litter the dam had her eyes done and presented with cataratas. 

I would say you get what you pay for but you are paying for a Mercedes and getting a Ford focus. But this is your choice, you have been given the information on the problems with this breeder. Buy insurance, get in with a training school (a good one!) and expect housebreaking to take a while. If you grow up in a barn you can't be expected to know how to live in a house. Good luck.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

OK, I've had some sleep so excuse my frustration. There is so much wrong with this breeder and clearances or a lack of them is just a small part of it. You will never convince anyone on this forum this is a good decision. This is your choice to make, listen to the advice or not is up to you. If this is the route you are determined to take, enjoy your puppy and hope all works out for you.


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## Quinn Pertuit (Oct 20, 2018)

puddles everywhere said:


> OK, I've had some sleep so excuse my frustration. There is so much wrong with this breeder and clearances or a lack of them is just a small part of it. You will never convince anyone on this forum this is a good decision. This is your choice to make, listen to the advice or not is up to you. If this is the route you are determined to take, enjoy your puppy and hope all works out for you.


Thank you for your feedback. I reached out to some references from the breeder I also found several owners on social media that were not references from the breeder and asked them for their opinion and experience. None seemed concerned about the housing of the litters. I am not trying to convince - I have been a lot more skeptical of breeders from the feedback I've gotten on this forum. 

The overall summary on this breeder I've gotten from you guys is:
The sire has all his clearances but eyes are not up-to-date. 
The dam has her heart and hips, but no elbows/eyes and was bred before 2 years of age.
The housing / whelping environment is more farm-like and not a professional breeding environment.

Those don't seem like red flags to me, but let me know if I'm being too light on anything.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I feel like people "vote" with their money in lots of ways. If someone chooses to buy a puppy from a breeder who keeps dogs in shacks soley for making money off them, they are voting in favor of animals being treated like that. If someone votes for Golden Retrievers who are not bred to the Code of Ethic's standard for good health they are voting in favor of that to the detriment of the puppies and the breed as a whole. I find it hard to understand, especially when they aren't even less expensive than a well bred and well raised puppy.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Quinn Pertuit said:


> Thank you for your feedback. I reached out to some references from the breeder I also found several owners on social media that were not references from the breeder and asked them for their opinion and experience. None seemed concerned about the housing of the litters. I am not trying to convince - I have been a lot more skeptical of breeders from the feedback I've gotten on this forum.
> 
> The overall summary on this breeder I've gotten from you guys is:
> The sire has all his clearances but *eyes are not up-to-date.*
> ...



Those are all huge red flags to me. Breeding a female before she is 2 and lacking clearances is highly unethical. Having her hips and not her elbows suggests she actually failed her elbows (as they are almost always done together, and if the elbows aren't on OFA, it's because she failed). And she has had no eye clearance. I would also want to know how much socialization they are getting if they are spending their first 8 weeks in a farm-like environment, as opposed to in a home. 

Several people have explained why these are red flags. We can't tell you what to do. But there is a huge amount of experience and knowledge here (more than just in general on social media). These are people who have been breeding ethically and knowledgeably for years, to better the health and wellbeing of the breed. When they advise that you can do better, they stand to gain nothing. They are simply trying to tell you the risks of getting a puppy from this breeding.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

Quinn Pertuit said:


> The overall summary on this breeder I've gotten from you guys is:
> The sire has all his clearances but eyes are not up-to-date.
> The dam has her heart and hips, but no elbows/eyes and was bred before 2 years of age.
> The housing / whelping environment is more farm-like and not a professional breeding environment.
> ...



Did you watch the video posted by GoldenMom999? That alone would have had me running in the opposite direction. Three litters at the same time, kept in the garage, with the older pups shut away in a shed in the garden. The obvious problem is that these puppies won't have been exposed to a normal living environment when they are sent home. There is no way these people can give all those puppies the attention they need to function well with their new families.


As for the health tests: Goldens are susceptible to some pretty nasty and _very _expensive inherited conditions. If the breeder doesn't test for them, and if the dogs' ancestors weren't tested (as is the case here), there's no way of knowing if the pups have them.


However, if these aren't red flags to you, there's not much more to say. Enjoy your pup, and may he/she have a long and happy life.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I just watched the video.All the chewed wood, lack of traction for puppies, ease w which rodents would get into the building, food kept in trash cans outside, the puppy in the yard who howled and instead of running to the person there went away- those are all frightening to me. 

No elbow clearance- elbows go part and parcel w hips. If hips are there and elbows not, you can wager $$ that the elbows failed. 
No eye clearance- Goldens are plagued w eye issues. If you don't see red flags when you see big buckets of water for the older puppies out back (which says to me no one changes the water with any regularity) or in any of the prior posts, go for it.


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## Quinn Pertuit (Oct 20, 2018)

Sweet Girl said:


> Those are all huge red flags to me. Breeding a female before she is 2 and lacking clearances is highly unethical. Having her hips and not her elbows suggests she actually failed her elbows (as they are almost always done together, and if the elbows aren't on OFA, it's because she failed). And she has had no eye clearance. I would also want to know how much socialization they are getting if they are spending their first 8 weeks in a farm-like environment, as opposed to in a home.
> 
> Several people have explained why these are red flags. We can't tell you what to do. But there is a huge amount of experience and knowledge here (more than just in general on social media). These are people who have been breeding ethically and knowledgeably for years, to better the health and wellbeing of the breed. When they advise that you can do better, they stand to gain nothing. They are simply trying to tell you the risks of getting a puppy from this breeding.


Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts. We are going to search for a different breeder and will use the forum to look out for upcoming litters. Let us know if you hear of anything.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Once you find a good breeder you will need to get on a waiting list. 
Good breeders don't keep puppies on the shelf ready to go. They breed for a purpose and only breed occasionally. In fact most have homes before they even breed. So start your search for a breeder that does it right. They will get all 4 clearances, as well as genetic testing and this pup will have this info. for at least 5 generations back. I can trace my girl back to 1900.
They will compete in some venue with their dogs. When you find one get on a waiting list. You might go to shows or events to help your search as many don't have web sites. Most good breeders know each other and knows who has puppies coming up and may help you but 1st you have to find one you like. 
When you purchase one of these precious pups you are making a friend for life with the breeder. They will give you information, answer your questions and you will have questions. They will take their puppies back if you are unable to keep the pup for some reason.
Finding a puppy is the easy part. Finding a breeder requires some effort on your part but so worth the effort. Shoot just having a puppy requires effort too, but to ensure a well behaved adult golden requires a commitment during the 1st year or 2. It's a process.


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## Quinn Pertuit (Oct 20, 2018)

We were able to get in touch with Topbrass Retrievers and put down our deposit today - litter is due in December! Thanks for the recommendations and feedback


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Great choice. If you want to share the reg. name of the sire and dam there are people who will help you understand the ofa clearances. FYI Topbrass puppies are going to need a job, this will not be a couch potato. They are wonderful, busy dogs and are usually sold to families that compete is some activity such as agility, rally, obedience or hunting so consider yourself extremely lucky. Find a good training place where the instructors compete with their dogs and welcome to the world of active, working goldens!


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## Jmcarp83 (May 4, 2018)

I saw four Goldens this weekend who were definitely on the what I consider “red” spectrum. One was from Hillock, Two were Eureeka, and I’m not sure who the other one was. Maybe I’m wrong in coloring but they were definitely in this photo to the left in color.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Topbrass produces some really great dogs - but as Puddles said, he will need a LOT of exercise and stimulation. Are you planning to do competitive obedience or agility or field work?


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## doughtyd1 (Feb 12, 2019)

Hello,
We have recently been looking into golden retriever breeders and are also interested in a puppy from this litter. Did you end up decided to go with them or has something made you decide otherwise? 
Thank you.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

doughtyd1 said:


> Hello,
> We have recently been looking into golden retriever breeders and are also interested in a puppy from this litter. Did you end up decided to go with them or has something made you decide otherwise?
> Thank you.


They continue to breed underage and without health certifications. Imo you can do a lot better for that price.


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## nhsolarguy (Nov 19, 2019)

I have no opinion on Windy Knoll Goldens, but I got a puppy from Thunder Ridge Goldens in Wakefield, NH and she died of cancer at 20 months. I sent a message to the breeder, and never heard back. I would be wary of pups from that line.

Mike K.
Looking for my sixth goldie...


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## Quinn Pertuit (Oct 20, 2018)

Wanted to post an update - we went with our gut and ended up getting the sweetest red retriever from Windy Knoll goldens. Noma was born November 5th 2018 and we picked her up January 10th 2019. However when we first got her, she was extremely sick and we reached out to the breeder. We took her to the vet regularly and have taken her about every other week. The vet gave us hill’s science diet and metronidazol to help her and we washed all her bedding, kennel, and toys over and over every few days. The breeder was pretty honest when we reached out and said all of their dogs have the same symptoms and that two dogs, one of the mothers, had just passed away from it (believe he said the dehydration was a big cause). Noma repeatedly has the symptoms of giardia and regular visits to the vet for tests sometimes test positive for giardia, other times negative but still the same symptoms. We spent a lot with vet expenses and at its worst my wife and I alternated days at home to take care of her for several months). She is now on Royal Canine Ultramino which seems to help, but occasionally she goes back to the same symptoms. She is 14 months old now, but looks very small at 48 lbs. Super sweet and beautiful.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

What a sweet face. I'm so sorry for the heart ache for both you and the pup. Giardia will sometimes cause them to be small. Thanks so much for the update and sharing your story. It's not supposed to be this way but all pups deserve good homes and looks this like girl has one.


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