# Some of my thoughts on force fetch



## krazybronco2

gdgli said:


> I am about ready to start force fetch with my puppy Thor. I am not new to this. I would like to share my thoughts.
> 
> 1. I am not teaching the dog to fetch. Every dog knows to fetch. I am teaching to fetch on command.
> 2. I don't let anyone use the command fetch, including children, with my dog. Why? Will that person do as I do---say the command only once and then back it up with an ear pinch if there is a refusal?
> 3. Summary of my observations of people who use a fetch command: Most of you have taught your dog to disobey the command fetch. Why else do you need to say it three and four times?
> 4. I do not need a service dog yet. Therefore I do not teach/use fetch to make my dogs pick up keys, quarters, etc. The dog must fetch anything I point to? No, the dog must fetch bumpers, chukars, ducks, pheasants, and geese so that is what I teach.
> 5. The dog already has every behavior that I need. Force fetch consists of building a behavior chain that is done on command.
> 6. I don't use the fetch command in the field until my job is done, i.e. I have completed force fetch.
> 7. Force fetch can be much gentler than most think IMO. People are often surprised. For example I helped my friend FF his pointing dog. Gentler was better.
> 
> Your thoughts? Comments?



i agree but i think force fetch is a little more than that, it is the corner stone of advanced retriever training. with out force fetch you loose alot of tools to get a dog through a situation and learn.


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## Ljilly28

I CGC tested a lovely golden who is a MH/UD and seven years old. In checking his ears, he shrieked and the owner explained it was from FF when he was young. He has otherwise a wonderful temperament, but he has an ear phobia. She is a gentle thoughtful trainer with ***, UDX and other nice titles and kind stable dogs. This made a big impression on me about FF.


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## nolefan

Looking forward to more comments from people experienced with the training process. I've only force fetched one dog, I now know it doesn't have to be some brutal experience to be successful. I was fortunate to have a friend who is an excellent trainer talk me through the sticky spots. I don't see how you could expect to be successful at more advanced levels without the concepts it establishes - how to turn off pressure, there is only one leader on this team etc.


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## nolefan

Force fetch does not have to be brutal to be successful.


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## gdgli

Ljilly28 said:


> I CGC tested a lovely golden who is a MH and seven years old. In checking his ears, he shrieked and the owner explained it was from FF when he was young. He has otherwise a wonderful temperament, but he has an ear phobia.


Thank you for that comment. Yes, I have seen this. For the record, I am a crossover trainer, I train smart, I use behavior modification all the time. Force fetch, in my realm, does not mean that you must pinch the ear. For example, the time that I exerted the most force on Buffy, fighting her natural behavior, consisted of me putting a bumper back in her mouth when she dropped it when a duck call was blown for the next retrieve. We had it out. My pressure/force did not include an ear pinch during this session, my pressure consisted of me swearing an oath and putting the bumper back in the mouth of a struggling and uncooperative dog. This may have gone on for several trials and repetitions over 5 minutes. I never had to repeat this lesson.


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## Claudia M

LJily then the FF was done wrong. 
I am in between with the FF. I have walked thru it quickly with my older girls and I do not think I had to touch their ears 10 times. _(ETA - note I said touch and not pinch)._

I was recently talking to a field trial am trainer and judge about this. I am paraphrasing the answer: "With a smart dog FF should not be difficult, you are conditioning the retrieve and should not require too much pressure". I completely agree with that. 

I had to teach Belle the fetch command. She refused to pick up plastic and dokken bumpers. No ear pinch or anything just took the bumper put it in her mouth with the word Fetch and then followed with a hold. Started with the canvas bumper which she liked and followed with the plastic and dokken bumper which she did not. Then the canvas bumpers were put away and her only choice was the plastic and dokken. 

I do agree with not using the command fetch or any other command in the field until it is completely understood and complied with and the dog can actually complete it. For example Belle brings everything to a heel nicely on land. But she does have trouble with the soaking ducks on water. I am of the opinion that at her age, stature and weight she cannot hold it. I do not want to burn the commands of fetch, hold etc on something she cannot do. I have to stay close to shore and pick up as soon as she exits the water thus not making it a habit for her to drop the duck on exit.


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## Ljilly28

I read these threads with interest. I sit on the fence about field training as I recognize the importance of keeping the retrieve in the retriever but I am turned off by the culture of force. I went out to field training quite a bit with a lab group several years back, and it just was not for me in terms of their training method/ ethos. I keep looking though for where I might fit, and I am going out with a golden group next week. It encourages me that you are a crossover trainer.


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## gdgli

nolefan said:


> Looking forward to more comments from people experienced with the training process. I've only force fetched one dog, I now know it doesn't have to be some brutal experience to be successful. I was fortunate to have a friend who is an excellent trainer talk me through the sticky spots. I don't see how you could expect to be successful at more advanced levels without the concepts it establishes - how to turn off pressure, there is only one leader on this team etc.


Again, I am a crossover trainer. I have force fetched my own retrievers and friends' pointing dogs. I am not a pro who needs to rush the job resulting in what was once called HELL WEEK. If one truly understands learning theory teaching becomes easier. Finally, force fetch does not mean "pinch the ear".


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## gdgli

Ljilly28 said:


> I read these threads with interest. I sit on the fence about field training as I recognize the importance of keeping the retrieve in the retriever but I am turned off by the culture of force. I went out to field training quite a bit with a lab group several years back, and it just was not for me in terms of their training method/ ethos. I keep looking though for where I might fit, and I am going out with a golden group next week. It encourages me that you are a crossover trainer.


One of the biggest problems in any training is that the trainer is usually not fluent in learning theory. I might add that there are plenty of popular, known trainers who I would never take any advice from. Quite frankly, they stink.


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## gdgli

krazybronco2 said:


> i agree but i think force fetch is a little more than that, it is the corner stone of advanced retriever training. with out force fetch you loose alot of tools to get a dog through a situation and learn.


My use of pressure comes long before force fetch. That is why my force fetch is so easy and successful. Also, my dogs are operant dogs which helps a lot.

FYI, I used to mock clicker training until I had to FF Buffy. I used the clicker to overcome an obstacle in FF. I solved in 30 seconds a problem that I could not solve 2x a day, 3 days in a row.


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## gdgli

Claudia

Re: Am Trainer and Judge

Of course he is right. And I know he MUST have been talking about Goldens.


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## FTGoldens

The best FF video on the market is by Danny Farmer and Judy Aycock called "Basics". Danny goes through the steps of FF with a series of dogs, beginning with a dog that had never been asked to hold a bumper; then he goes through several dogs which are at different levels of training to allow the viewer to see each step. These are not staged sessions, but show some of the issues that can/will come up during the training. Plus, while Danny is doing the FF'ing with the dog, Judy is providing commentary in the background. Further, Danny and Judy have training philosophy discussions literally "on the porch" ... these provide additional insight. I strongly recommend this DVD.

Now the Bill Hillmann DVD on FF is also very good, but it shows an alternative method to the typical ear-focused process. Indeed, I have had to use Hillmann's method on one dog because of that dog's over-reaction to the typical process ... I'm not sure what caused that dog's over-reaction, but the dog was never comfortable with any part of it, even the "hold" part, so I looked for something new and used Hillmann's way. Frankly, it's okay, but I don't believe that you get as much out of that method as the typical method, but it was great for the one dog.

FTGoldens


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## Alaska7133

I only have one dog that was FF. She was FF by a friend back in the summer of 2013. I thought she was "done". But as we got farther into 3 handed casting, etc. it was apparent that FF was not complete due to the amount of refusals. So rather than up the pressure, I spent the last winter going very slowly back over FF from the beginning. Even now with Lucy I still throw some bumpers on the ground and make sure she will pick them up in a walking fetch, before every session that we work on handling. 

Personally I think that the overall training of the dog has to be looked at. If you spoil your dog and let them get away with stuff. You can't expect them to suddenly be mindful of you in the field. That's the mistake I think I made. I let Lucy be a spoiled puppy around the house, then expected her to be good in the field. It was my fault she took so long to FF. Had I set perimeters with her from the beginning, I would not have had to spend so much time getting her to toe the line in the field. So I think next time I'll spend more time on basic manners so that I don't cause myself and the dog so much difficulty in FF.


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## Poppy2

I never really bought in to FF. I studied it and the theory, but still made no sense to me.

We teach our dog to sit, heel and come when called first,right? This will be foundation of everything!
We then start to work on "Hold", once a path of comunication has been established with sit,heel and here.

OK-
So we're set now 
Now comes learning what a E-Collar is to SIT and HERE, right?
So now we're cooking, once all is in place.
Remember, this is the foundation, so all must be understood completely!!
Now that we have gotten this far, we can use the collar to teach(Hold,Nick) when the dog drops something anywhere at any time.

I have now gotten to the same place FF people have gotten to without the fuss of FF.

Isn't the end result to get the dog CC in the first place? FF just seems like a extra step that gets thrown out anyway.How do you correct your dog in the field?? Do you go out and pinch his ear? Timing is everything for a correction to a dog, JMHO 

LIFE IS GRAND WITHOUT FF.


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## krazybronco2

Poppy2 said:


> I never really bought in to FF. I studied it and the theory, but still made no sense to me.
> 
> We teach our dog to sit, heel and come when called first,right? This will be foundation of everything!
> We then start to work on "Hold", once a path of comunication has been established with sit,heel and here.
> 
> OK-
> So we're set now
> Now comes learning what a E-Collar is to SIT and HERE, right?
> So now we're cooking, once all is in place.
> Remember, this is the foundation, so all must be understood completely!!
> Now that we have gotten this far, we can use the collar to teach(Hold,Nick) when the dog drops something anywhere at any time.
> 
> I have now gotten to the same place FF people have gotten to without the fuss of FF.
> 
> Isn't the end result to get the dog CC in the first place? FF just seems like a extra step that gets thrown out anyway.How do you correct your dog in the field?? Do you go out and pinch his ear? Timing is everything for a correction to a dog, JMHO
> 
> LIFE IS GRAND WITHOUT FF.



seen a many a person walk out in the field and pinch an ear all the way to a bird i have even seen handlers get undressed and swim and pinch an ear to a bird.


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## K9-Design

In the now 7 dogs I have force fetched (but who's counting) FOUR responded VERY WELL to an ear pinch and THREE responded CRAPPY to an ear pinch. As in, no amount of ear pressure changed their behavior and made them get the message....it was an effort of futility and frustration for all. Once I went to collar fetch it was like a lightswitch went on and they performed and understood just as well as the dogs who "got" the ear pinch right away. 
Will I continue to introduce force via ear pinch with future dogs? Yes. I want them to understand it's me doing the forcing. The collar takes away that intimacy. But if the dog is not quick to understand and comply with the ear pinch, I will switch to the collar right away. The dogs who "get" ear pinch do so from the get-go, as in, lunging for the bumper within two sessions. The others might be performing the behavior but you never get any compulsion, which is what you want.

(In case people haven't noticed ---- I am honest in what I train and make no apologies for the use of pain in certain techniques. Sugarcoating it to make it sound nicer is not my MO!....) Sugarcoating means you are afraid. How can you be confident in your choices as a trainer if you are afraid of your technique.

I have never had a dog be ear sensitive after force fetch. It is so specific to that training scenario they never have flashbacks and generalize it to other phases of their life. Once they are on to collar fetch I never go back to an ear pinch so it is a very brief period in their training career.

George I like and agree with all of your points, except the last one. There is some amount of pain/coercion with force fetch, otherwise it would just be fetch  I agree it doesn't have to be hell week, though!!!!


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## MillionsofPeaches

I agree with all above and have no fear about inflicting a bit of discomfort when it comes to training. Lord knows, I wasn't spared that discomfort by my own parents. 
And poppy I have also seen trainers go out in the field and pinch an ear...Actually I would be one of them....

Proof is a bit different so I'm not sure how to go about FF. Both my girls didn't want to fetch a bird so the points were very clear, fetch, hold drop. Proof has no problem with this. I did teach him the command fetch. And I also work on hold and drop. Drop was extremely important as he was growling at our family members for trying to take things away from him that could be harmful as a baby puppy. When we taught him drop he was much more understanding to what we were asking of him, I guess?

Proof was going nuts over the bird or the bumper crunching and dropping and fidgeting with it at delivery. I didn't want to FF him yet as he didn't have his teeth in so I taught him with repitition. He is much better now. He knows all three commands and I even can 'proof' the hold command and he won't drop it now. If he starts getting nuts excited I will tell him easy and he will settle down. Before he wouldn't even bring the retrieve to me within ten to twenty yards. Now he will come into heel. 

So I guess FF is going to go like Anney said, I will do this to ensure he knows I'm the one in control of the pressure but I'm hoping it goes a lot easier than my other two who took over a month to do. ugh. That was miserable for me. 
I will admit I'm so nervous about this!


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## K9-Design

MoP Proof sounds like Bally -- I had to take birds away when he was really little because he was so nuts for them. 
He FLEW through FF (ear pinch) in fact the only time I ever could create a refusal was to do walking fetch with birds AND bumpers on the ground. He would run right over top of a bumper to grab the next bird. NOPE. That drove home the message "you fetch what I tell you."


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## Poppy2

MOP,
What was gained by going out and pinching the dogs ear that could not have been delt with from the line with the collar?


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## MillionsofPeaches

Now that makes sense to me! That is the perfect way to ensure a refusal because this dog would do anything for a bird. 

I've already started CC and it is going too easily. He doesn't care yet he seems to get it. 
He is just too biddable for me sometimes. I know that sounds odd but when they do everything you ask its hard to correct. And the things he doesn't do right, it is more that he doesn't understand then blatantly refuse me, and I won't use pressure for that.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Poppy well, for me, the trainer I was working with for a while wouldn't put a collar on my dog. He said that she was 'too soft.' So I didn't have any other way to correct at the time. I didn't ear pinch I ear canal squeeze as that is how he taught me to do it.


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## Poppy2

A growling dog does not sound "SOFT"


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## MillionsofPeaches

No, that is my current puppy...My girl is super super soft. She is three now. She is the one that was FF. I haven't even FF my pup yet.


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## Poppy2

To me it seems alot of people think its a prerequisite to FF their dog.

Its not!


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## MillionsofPeaches

poppy do you do hunt tests or field trials? You haven't FF'd your dog? I don't care either way, there are lots of different ways people do things and honestly I don't judge. If the dog excels then obviously that method worked for that particular dog.Dogs are all different as this is my third dog and he is so incredibly different than my other two that I've trained him a lot differently.


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## krazybronco2

Poppy2 said:


> MOP,
> What was gained by going out and pinching the dogs ear that could not have been delt with from the line with the collar?


the understanding of collar pressure in the field. FF is done in a controlled environment now you have to bring it to the field with everything else we have conditioned with the collar again in a controlled environment. also normally this is with a dog that is just coming out of walking fetch and just starting to see marks again. normally it starts off with a couple of FETCH nick FETCH if that doesnt work you simplify by ear pinching to the bird and walking at heel all the way back to the line rethrow the mark. and from what i have seen normally takes 1 maybe 2 times for a dog to do that and it never happens again.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Krazy, that happened with Kat in the beginning and yes, 1 or 2 times and never again.


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## Poppy2

This is my third dog, all have been trained to hunt upland. I did dabble in hunt tests with my current dog of 5yrs old. We got to Master level without blinking a eye. I find ht tests to be a bit of a joke!

Your right though, every dog is different and learning that says your well on your way to becoming a Good Handler. Being able to read the dog infront of you is priceless


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## Poppy2

KrazyBronco
I guess thats one way to train alot of nonsense into a dog.


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## K9-Design

Hi Poppy you must be new here 
Tell us about yourself!!


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## Poppy2

Sorry to hear about Fisher!
Been there twice and it doesn't get easier!
Keep on keepin on! ;-)


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## Loisiana

Poppy2 said:


> I never really bought in to FF. I studied it and the theory, but still made no sense to me.
> 
> we can use the collar to teach(Hold,Nick) when the dog drops something anywhere at any time.
> 
> I have now gotten to the same place FF people have gotten to without the fuss of FF.


I would consider using the collar to enforce retrieving to be using a form of force fetch.


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## Golden Gibby

gdgli,

I think your thoughts on FF are similar to how I see it. Its kind of a hot topic, as evidenced by 4 pages of posts on a topic that was started this morning.

I will start by saying I have only FF 2 dogs so I do not have a great deal of experience in it. That being said, during the process I would check in with a pro to make sure I wasn't missing anything. I felt it was beneficial to have someone who is experienced monitor my progress. When it was done I found that it wasn't as big a deal as I thought. This past winter I went through it my second time, again checking in with a pro to monitor my progress. I sometimes train around dogs that haven't been FF'd and there is quite a difference in their deliveries. I have been gunning or helping at hunt tests and seen dogs "blink" on a bird due to condition of the bird, maybe it was hard hit or maybe it was at the end of a hot day and the bird had been retrieved several times and wasn't in the best of condition. This is not yet been a problem for my dogs and I have always thought it was probably due to making sure they were FF'd.


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## krazybronco2

Poppy2 said:


> KrazyBronco
> I guess thats one way to train alot of nonsense into a dog.


you are going to have to back that statement up cause i do not see it as nonsense.

I want every tool in my tool box to help my dog succeed. yes i might be able to use a flat head screw driver on a phillips head screw and might even get the screw out but if i had a phillips head screw driver it would have been a lot easier. before collar conditioning i teach with a choker chain then a heeling stick then the collar because then i have a tool for every situation. i use a heeling stick to this day for line corrections and because my dog was taught with a heeling stick before the collar, understands every correction i give with a stick. Again i want every tool i can to help get the job done, might take a little extra time in the beginning but it works


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## gdgli

Golden Gibby said:


> gdgli,
> 
> I think your thoughts on FF are similar to how I see it. Its kind of a hot topic, as evidenced by 4 pages of posts on a topic that was started this morning.
> 
> I will start by saying I have only FF 2 dogs so I do not have a great deal of experience in it. That being said, during the process I would check in with a pro to make sure I wasn't missing anything. I felt it was beneficial to have someone who is experienced monitor my progress. When it was done I found that it wasn't as big a deal as I thought. This past winter I went through it my second time, again checking in with a pro to monitor my progress. I sometimes train around dogs that haven't been FF'd and there is quite a difference in their deliveries. I have been gunning or helping at hunt tests and seen dogs "blink" on a bird due to condition of the bird, maybe it was hard hit or maybe it was at the end of a hot day and the bird had been retrieved several times and wasn't in the best of condition. This is not yet been a problem for my dogs and I have always thought it was probably due to making sure they were FF'd.


You are doing things right. And I have made the same observations as you.


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## gdgli

I hope that we keep this thread civil. I know it is a controversial topic but at the same time the way I train also raises controversy. I just wanted to talk a bit about my ideas since I am at the FF point right now.


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## krazybronco2

gdgli said:


> I hope that we keep this thread civil. I know it is a controversial topic but at the same time the way I train also raises controversy. I just wanted to talk a bit about my ideas since I am at the FF point right now.


if i have gotten a little more than civil please let me know and if you want we can take it to the private message. I feel very strongly about my opinions of training a dog just ask Millions of Peaches.


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## Poppy2

Louisiana
You are 100% correct!
The collar is a form of pressure and the dog learns it early on in his life. I find absolutely no ;-) reason to pinch a dogs ear to get compliance. The collar will be your "Go to" in the field, correct?

FF invovles alot of unnecessary teaching!
Picking up different objects from the table. Walking fetch and even the word fetch itself it just plan a waste of time.

Sit means sit
Here means here
Heel meam heel
HOLD MEANS HOLD,PERIOD!

This is all obtainable with just the use of the collar. If you feel the need to complicate matter, don't let me stand in your way ;-)


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## gdgli

krazybronco2 said:


> if i have gotten a little more than civil please let me know and if you want we can take it to the private message. I feel very strongly about my opinions of training a dog just ask Millions of Peaches.


PM sent, take a look.


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## gdgli

Ljilly28 said:


> I read these threads with interest. I sit on the fence about field training as I recognize the importance of keeping the retrieve in the retriever but I am turned off by the culture of force. I went out to field training quite a bit with a lab group several years back, and it just was not for me in terms of their training method/ ethos. I keep looking though for where I might fit, and I am going out with a golden group next week. It encourages me that you are a crossover trainer.


Check out Pippa Mattinson's website.


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## krazybronco2

Poppy2 said:


> Louisiana
> You are 100% correct!
> The collar is a form of pressure and the dog learns it early on in his life. I find absolutely no ;-) reason to pinch a dogs ear to get compliance. The collar will be your "Go to" in the field, correct?
> 
> FF invovles alot of unnecessary teaching!
> Picking up different objects from the table. Walking fetch and even the word fetch itself it just plan a waste of time.
> 
> Sit means sit
> Here means here
> Heel meam heel
> HOLD MEANS HOLD,PERIOD!
> 
> This is all obtainable with just the use of the collar. If you feel the need to complicate matter, don't let me stand in your way ;-)


so question. what happens if the dog doesnt understand the collar correction you are giving? what else do you have to lean on to get the dog to understand what you are asking?


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## Poppy2

Then your moving too fast! Time to slow down and make sure the command is solid and then chain the pressure from the collar to the command.
When did I say I don't have other tools?

I use a heeling stick at the line as well.
I also used a pinch collar to teach heel before the collar even reached his neck.


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## K9-Design

Yeah I don't even teach the word "hold" anymore.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Hey Anney you say you don't use hold anymore. I've got a question. Proof really gets crazy with whatever he is retrieving when he gets to the line. He was fidgeting and dropping and repicking up his retrieve. Like it is too big for his mouth but I know that is not the case, he was just excited and going bonkers. I have actually seen this with a couple of field goldens that were older, not puppies, so I'm not sure if this is a thing they do or what but it annoys me ALOT and don't want my dog doing it. I love drive and passion but I personally feel if the dog can't keep himself in check at the line he can't efficiently work. 

I've taught him hold, and easy, and that has almost cleared up. Now he doesn't drop it and he also will calm down when I remind him to hold and easy. It could be age but I don't know. Katniss is so mellow that she never did this. How would you teach him to calm down without the word hold?


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## FTGoldens

I really don't see a controversy here. FF can be accomplished with either the ear pinch or the collar. It's the same principle and even the same process: COMMAND+PRESSURE > COMPLIANCE > REMOVAL OF PRESSURE.
(This is why FF is foundational, it's a step in pup learning that compliance with the command is more comfortable than non-compliance.)
I still prefer the pinch method, although Hillmann's method worked much better for one of my dogs. Interesting how Hillmann's method sort of "hides" the pressure.
FTGoldens


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## K9-Design

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Hey Anney you say you don't use hold anymore. I've got a question. Proof really gets crazy with whatever he is retrieving when he gets to the line. He was fidgeting and dropping and repicking up his retrieve. Like it is too big for his mouth but I know that is not the case, he was just excited and going bonkers. I have actually seen this with a couple of field goldens that were older, not puppies, so I'm not sure if this is a thing they do or what but it annoys me ALOT and don't want my dog doing it. I love drive and passion but I personally feel if the dog can't keep himself in check at the line he can't efficiently work.
> 
> I've taught him hold, and easy, and that has almost cleared up. Now he doesn't drop it and he also will calm down when I remind him to hold and easy. It could be age but I don't know. Katniss is so mellow that she never did this. How would you teach him to calm down without the word hold?


My obedience trainer made the observation that most people end up using "Hold" as a command WHEN their dog is mouthing so it quickly becomes a command to mouth the object! Soooo true. If they are mouthing the object they are not obeying the commands of HERE, HEEL, FETCH or SIT so you can just correct on any one of those commands instead. I wouldn't worry too much about it with Proof, as you haven't FF'd yet, and that will clear up a lot of it. Spend lots of time with him just holding the bumper/bird, sitting in heel position with it, coming into heel position with it. If a dog mouths the bird while sitting at my side my correction/command is SIT. That means not only sit but sit still. It works just fine.


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## Poppy2

In Hillmans video
Quote: I nearly ruined my fisrt pup. And I surely damaged the relationship.

This I believe is the root of the problem why FF threads go soar quick. We have the old school guys set in their ways(why fix what ain't broke)
They pressure newbies by saying, You have to FF your dog with ear pinch. They say it like its the Holy Grail of dog training.

This can be very intimadating! I know it was for me. I thought as Bill did,"Why FF if my dog is picking up his birds." I was going to have no part of this,,EVER. As I began CC my pup to sit and here I saw the light buld come on in my dog. I new I could extend this way of learning into other parts of his training, like when he would drop a wounded rooster. It worked! My dog understood the pressure and how to turn it off.

This was 4 yrs ago. Hillmans video isn't really re-inventing the wheel. He just saw that there was a need for this video to be made. Boy was he right! This way can be ALOT easier for the new trainer.
Why,
Because its not as intimate and you will have less of a chance of ruining your dog or surely damaging you relationship with your dog,, as Bill did his first time.


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## Alaska7133

Has anyone taken a look at the Pat Nolan videos on YouTube? He uses only collar pressure for FF. He uses a very low level nic like Hillmann, holds the button down continuously until the pup picks up the bumper, then lets off the button when they do. Kind of different. Never touches the ear at all. He keeps that nic low level I think is the key. I've tried it and it works. My timing isn't as good as Pat's though.

Going back to Pippa Mattinson, I found her YouTube videos awhile back on whistle sitting. She does a very nice job of teaching whistle sits using treats. I liked how she did it. Start with a treat and reinforce with a nic as necessary.


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## SwimDog

Alaska7133 said:


> Going back to Pippa Mattinson, I found her YouTube videos awhile back on whistle sitting. She does a very nice job of teaching whistle sits using treats. I liked how she did it. Start with a treat and reinforce with a nic as necessary.


Are you saying Pippa does the nic - or is that your variation (...I thought she was in the UK and that ecollers were illegal there?)?

thanks


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## Alaska7133

Pippa does not nic. Pippa uses treats. 

My suggestion of following up with a nic was mine, not Pippa's. 

Heck they don't even allow pinch collars in the UK, let alone e-collars! I've heard they are even trying to do away with all slip type collars like chain collars. When they were the ones that invented the dang English Slip Leash! Ah the impact of animal rights groups over all dog owners.


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## FTGoldens

Alaska7133 said:


> Has anyone taken a look at the Pat Nolan videos on YouTube? He uses only collar pressure for FF. He uses a very low level nic like Hillmann, holds the button down continuously until the pup picks up the bumper, then lets off the button when they do. Kind of different. Never touches the ear at all. He keeps that nic low level I think is the key. I've tried it and it works. My timing isn't as good as Pat's though.


Continuous vs. nic? I suspect that Pat uses continuous, not a nic, for this.

But again, it's not the type of pressure that matters (i.e., pinch or collar or toe-hitch or whatever) ... it's the communication. 
>Is the trainer getting the message across to the dog? 
>Is the timing proper?
>Is the type of pressure causing a distraction so that dog is not getting the message? 
>Is the level of pressure causing such a distraction?

As with nearly all other elements of training, "reading" the dog is of paramount importance in this stage of basics.

FTGoldens


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## K9-Design

Alaska7133 said:


> Has anyone taken a look at the Pat Nolan videos on YouTube? He uses only collar pressure for FF. He uses a very low level nic like Hillmann, *holds the button down continuously until the pup picks up the bumper, then lets off the button when they do. Kind of different.* Never touches the ear at all. He keeps that nic low level I think is the key. I've tried it and it works. My timing isn't as good as Pat's though.



Not really --- this is exactly what you'll find in the Dobbs Tri Tronics book. Circa 1992  But you're right -- it works just fine.


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## Alaska7133

FT, 
yes continuous. I shouldn't haven't used the word nic.

Anney,
you have more history than I do. I wasn't aware the technique has been around so long.


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## Swampcollie

K9-Design said:


> Not really --- this is exactly what you'll find in the Dobbs Tri Tronics book. Circa 1992  But you're right -- it works just fine.


I still use the Dobbs approach for teaching "hold". When it comes to "fetch" it depends on the dog and what approach is more effective with that particular animal. Sometimes it's an ear pinch, sometimes it's low level direct pressure with the E-collar. A lot of the Pointer folks still swear by the toe hitch.

It's all about finding a method of applying pressure that the dog responds to in a positive manner without being overwhelmed.


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## gdgli

Fourth day of force fetch. Thor actually started to reach for the dumbbell. My prior three days were a little tough. Big struggling and I was ready to assemble my forcing table. However, I decided to continue on the ground. 

PS I haven't even done an ear pinch yet. I like to teach an understanding of fetch and hold first.


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## gdgli

Swampcollie said:


> I still use the Dobbs approach for teaching "hold". When it comes to "fetch" it depends on the dog and what approach is more effective with that particular animal. Sometimes it's an ear pinch, sometimes it's low level direct pressure with the E-collar. A lot of the Pointer folks still swear by the toe hitch.
> 
> It's all about finding a method of applying pressure that the dog responds to in a positive manner without being overwhelmed.


The first two dogs that I FFd was done on a forcing table and I used an overhead cable and the toe hitch, later moved to ear pinch. I really liked it for a few reasons. I modified with my last dog and am now using that modification.


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## Alaska7133

I have to say there is nothing more I hate seeing than the toe hitch. If I could see any practice end in field training, that would be it.


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## gdgli

Stacey

Who did you see using it?


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## Alaska7133

I've heard it described. So I did a search on YouTube and there are many videos of people doing it. I just don't think the toe hitch is necessary after viewing the videos.


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## nolefan

I attended a seminar where toe loop was used for pressure and I kept waiting for PETA to parachute in and make a citizens arrest... it was awful to see and hear.


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## Alaska7133

When I first started field training, I had a long time field trialer tell me about the toe hitch. She said look at the dogs at a field trial, look at their feet. Often they have had broken toes and the feet are misshapen from the toe hitch.


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## gdgli

All I can say is that I have used the toe hitch. I didn't break or dislocate any toes. I got excellent speedy results.


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## Ljilly28

nolefan said:


> I attended a seminar where toe loop was used for pressure and I kept waiting for PETA to parachute in and make a citizens arrest... it was awful to see and hear.


Oh yikes that makes my stomach do flipflops


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## Alaska7133

George, I'm sure you would never dream of doing anything like that. 

But some people have and I think it's wrong to do it.


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## K9-Design

Gotta say I've never seen a toe hitch done and frankly I don't really get it (???).


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## Poppy2

K9-Design said:


> Gotta say I've never seen a toe hitch done and frankly I don't really get it (???).


Less chance of getting bit would be my guess.


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## krazybronco2

Poppy2 said:


> Less chance of getting bit would be my guess.


the way i have seen it done it gives you 2 free hands because the handler ties the string to their foot but i have a feeling that takes a lot of experience kinda like a drag racer throttling the gas pedal to keep the tires from spinning.


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## gdgli

gdgli said:


> Fourth day of force fetch. Thor actually started to reach for the dumbbell. My prior three days were a little tough. Big struggling and I was ready to assemble my forcing table. However, I decided to continue on the ground.
> 
> PS I haven't even done an ear pinch yet. I like to teach an understanding of fetch and hold first.


Day Five. Although there has been no ear pinch it doesn't mean that there was no pressure. The first three days Thor fought me---lying down, backing away, fake crying---and all I was doing was gently opening his mouth, saying fetch, placing the dumbbell in his mouth and pushing his lower jaw up. Day four he yielded and day five he reaches for the dumbbell and holds until I say give. We are doing quite well. And he is smiling. He now understands what I wanted and is happy to do it for me.



"Force fetch does not mean an ear pinch. The essence of force fetch is making the dog do it when he doesn't want to do it." Guy Fornuto


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## gdgli

UPDATE

I am taking my time but I am having terrific results. Here is where I diverge from many. I capture behaviors using a marker (clicker/yes). I also use the clicker to make it very clear as to what I want and I clear up suspected confusion. I combine old school FF with modern techniques.

Results: Thor is reaching upon the fetch command, holding and carrying. Pressure will necessarily come but not just yet. I have already used marker training to clear up two areas of confusion in building this part of the behavior chain.

More updates in the future.


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## Vhuynh2

I also used a clicker and/or marker word before going onto the ear pinch. I was advised to do it differently, but at home I would break out the clicker and treats.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Ironically, I didn't want to do FF on Proof when he was younger but we were having some delivery issues as well as return issues. I had to do something in order to keep training efficiently. So I used food only and did a mini FF with him that was only with food. This was done only in my bathroom, more as OB and not field. It worked like a charm for what I needed. Now, he does really well with everything except the ducks still get him a bit at the end of delivery. He likes to get one or two bites in before he gives it to me but he understands what is expected of him as far as pleasing me. 
Now, we are moving on to actual force and I am 100% this will clean up the ducks and hopefully prevent any unforeseen future issues he might have. 

My point is, I think you can do a lot with positive reinforcement, especially when the dog is 4 months to 5 months. I believe that this ingrains happy thoughts in the puppy's mind that never leave.


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## gdgli

I was speaking to someone today who said he did Hillman FF, said it was mild. He asked me how do you know if the dog has been FFd. I said that if the dog doesn't want to pick up one of those rotten training ducks, does he pick it up after you say command fetch?


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## gdgli

I have been working this slowly, much slower than in the past. However, extremely quick progress per session.

For those who have done FF, you realize that picking up from the ground could be a problem. Well we had a slight glitch here but it was overcome quickly, actually in about 10 seconds. And today we moved on to the bumper.

Summary: Thor is reaching for the dowel in all directions, he picks up from the ground, he has been introduced to very mild pressure, and we started the bumper. I anticipate quick progress. I just need to get some birds.


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## gdgli

OK, our FF (or conditioned retrieve, the term I prefer) is coming along nicely. There was a small bump in the road which I quickly fixed. 

I am convinced that the issues I hear about with trouble with FF are a result of the trainers not recognizing confusion in their dog. Clear up the confusion and you clear up the stumbling blocks.


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## gdgli

Summary of our progress: 

I had to do this piecemeal due to other things that took priority. I don't like doing it this way. However we are done, finishing quite a while ago. I was careful not to use the fetch command in the field until we were done. BTW, my dog is not deaf. Should he not fetch up after the first time I say fetch, I have a tool to get him to fetch.


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