# Vet not happy about special diet



## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

I fail to see how Natural Balance is considered by any vet to be a "specialized diet". It's simply an available brand of kibble.

Curious, what does your vet recommend you feed your puppy instead?


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Fish based diets are not considered appropriate for puppies in general. It's being tried with Newfs...BUT Fish is their natural, historical diet, so things are going well, so far with them.

I can see the Vet's point - it's based on sound Immunological data. Don't "eliminate" things at the onset. Deal with issues when and IF they arrive. Things can be "tweaked" when and if necessary.

Some breeds (like Giants) are more sensitive to certain percentages of nutrients in food ... but not from an "allergic" perspective....from a growth perspective. You have to be careful about what you feed a giant.

I wouldn't blow off what the Vet is saying. I think he's mostly likely correct.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Yes, I would want to know what your vet would recommend and why. If he's trying to peddle Science Diet or another brand that HE sells, I would be looking for another vet. There are many quality puppy or all life stages food out there if you do decide to change. However, if the food you are using is an all life stages or puppy food I see no reason to switch just because it is not the usual protein source. After all if your pup did become allergic to the salmon, there's always duck, lamb, venison, bison, etc etc.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I just went to the NB site and looked at the food. http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/SPFish.html Although it does say it is for puppies too, I personally would want a food that has a named meat meal as the primary ingredient. You can look at the Innova foods (www.naturapet.com) or Fromm foods (www.frommfamily.com) and compare ingredients and protein levels for comparison.


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## Doodle (Apr 6, 2009)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Yes, I would want to know what your vet would recommend and why. If he's trying to peddle Science Diet or another brand that HE sells, I would be looking for another vet. There are many quality puppy or all life stages food out there if you do decide to change. However, if the food you are using is an all life stages or puppy food I see no reason to switch just because it is not the usual protein source. After all if your pup did become allergic to the salmon, there's always duck, lamb, venison, bison, etc etc.


I was just about to write exactly this. I think it's always respectful to ask the vet why they recommend something different. I've used Natural Balance when doing an elimination diet with Brady, and I personally don't have a big problem with the food you're using. Like Penny & Maggie's Mom said, there are plenty of other protein sources to try should your dog become allergic to salmon...she listed the more "unique" proteins...you could also try the "non-unique" chicken, turkey and lamb. As a puppy, Brady was sooooo sensitive with both allergies and GI issues that it took me 14 months to FINALLY find a food that he does well on, so believe me when I say, if your pup is doing well on this food, I'd hesitate to start changing things. And, Natural Balance is an all life stages food, so no need to change to an adult formula later if you don't want to. The only concern I might have is that the Natural Balance formulas do tend to be on the lower end of the protein level...most puppy food are around the 25% range.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Don't sweat the things you see on dogfoodanalysis.com. The site looks very reasonable and professional, but many of the assumptions they use to rate foods aren't based on sound science.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Natural Balance does tend to be on the lower end of the protein scale in industry standards, from what I've seen. I'd be more concerned about that than allergies.


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## Jesse3 (Jun 6, 2009)

Thanks for the quick responses. First, I goofed about the name of the food. It's Sweet Potato and Fish. I also looked it up again on the dog analysis, and it's listed as "archived" ...don't know what exactly why that is. As much as I really like my vet, I get the feeling that he isn't big on what he considers "fads" in dog food. Back when my other golden was first diagnosed with skin cancer, I questioned him about grain free and putting him on Wellness Core(recommended on a dog cancer site). He said that dogs are very adaptable and most do perfectly fine on dog food with grains. I went ahead and put that dog on the Wellness Core and he did live 4 months past the time he was expected to. I realize that the food couldn't have affected it that much, but I figured it was worth trying. This time, with my new golden, he didn't really push any particular food, although he did give me a Iams puppy packet that had a video and information packets. I also saw that there was a lot of Eukanuba food available there. I did not realize that fish based isn't the best for puppies. That does concern me. The food I am using is not a puppy food, at least the label doesn't specify for puppies. It doesn't say anything about life stages either. I guess I should be looking to switch him based on what you are saying. If I switch, do I look specifically for food that is labeled for puppies? What about the protein issue? I read something about no more than 26% protein, and a lot of the 5-6 star food had protein much higher. Are there any 5-6 star foods that are ok for golden puppies?


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Sam was on a fish based kibble (Timberwolf Organics Ocean Blue formula) at 4 months old with no problems or issues. It was actually the kibble he did best on and what I would have kept him on had I not started feeding him raw food.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

It's still not recommended that a puppy be fed a fish diet....UNLESS it's been formulated to be All Life Stages. Not by anyone. AND...grain free is not recommended for puppies either. Those diets are much too limited for proper growth and health. Once they're adults, it's a different story, but your puppy needs more than those foods give. 

My view is that your Vet is one who IS interested in nutrition (which is rare, honestly). He didn't try to sell you on any particular food did he?

If you research different food sites...even dog food analysis...you'll see that they do not recommend most grain free foods for puppies either. Nor fish. There IS a reason for that..in fact, lots of them.

I'd be feeding a young Golden pup a Large Breed Puppy food or an All Life Stages food with rice or oatmeal as the grain. The reason I'd tend to stay away from foods with wheat/corn/soy isn't because of allergies, but because the quality of those grains is poor.

Give the dog real corn (human food)...real bread (human also LOL)...unless you see a problem. The processed grains in cheaper dog foods are garbage. Husks, etc.


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## Jesse3 (Jun 6, 2009)

Thanks you again for all your insights. I know I shouldn't be going nuts over this, and I don't want to be switching around if it isn't necessary. It does concern me that fish isn't appropriate though, and as much as I don't want too high a protein, I don't want too low either. My neighbor had her golden on Innova for her first year and the dog did very well. I am considering changing to that, although I was concerned about the high protein in the puppy food. I guess I should recheck that in case I misread it. Surprisingly, that neighbor changed to Nature's Select now and I can't understand why if her dog was doing so well on Innova. She said it was because that's what the breeder had her dogs on. I also know another golden owner whose one year old just switched to Innova from Eukanuba puppy. She only stayed with Eukanuba because that's what her dog was started with. I know I sound like a broken record, but can anyone recommend an appropriate puppy food that is appropriate in the percentage of protein.


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## Doodle (Apr 6, 2009)

I agree with the large breed puppy choice...we used wellness large breed puppy, which is chicken based. With regards to the protein issue and puppies, I believe the current school of thought is that it's not just the protein alone, but also the calcium/phosphorus levels that promote too rapid bone growth. I personally would stick with a food that's in the mid 20's range just to be on the safe side. Keep in mind also, that many of these "premium" foods have a very complex list of ingredients, and for some pups it's just too much for their GI systems to handle. If you find that to be the case, you can consider something like the california natural puppy brand which is more limited ingredient.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Jesse3 said:


> I know I sound like a broken record, but can anyone recommend an appropriate puppy food that is appropriate in the percentage of protein.


Eukanuba large breed puppy.


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

I would probably go away from a fish based food unless that is all that works. If some kind of allergy or sensitivity develops what will you go to? Fish is usually the last option when dogs are problems with other protein sources such as chicken or beef.

Also since it has sweet potato that is also considered one of the foods that are used when nothing else is working. It's a little bit smarter, in my opinion, to have sweet potato as an option to move to if your dog develops problems with oatmeal, wheat, corn, barley..etc.

I'd rather have that option to move to a fish based food, designed for dogs with allergies, then have to specially order something like kangaroo meat (yes they do have that) when or if my dog developed problems with the fish based food.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

A good protein level for a pup is around 23-24%. Calcium around 1.2 to 1.6 %. Phosphorus .9 to 1.1% (depending on where the calcium level is...at 1.2 it should be lower....at 1.6 it should be a tad higher)

Most ALS or Large Breed Puppy foods fit into these parameters.

There are so many out there....Natural Balance, Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul, Nature's Variety, Nutro NATURAL CHOICE, Eagle Pack HOLISTIC, etc.

Different dogs do well on different foods. Start with something pretty basic...chicken based, and go from there. Oh, and if you decide to go with a Lamb based food...make SURE it has Taurine. This is IMPERATIVE!


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## Doodle (Apr 6, 2009)

Jesse3 said:


> I know I sound like a broken record, but can anyone recommend an appropriate puppy food that is appropriate in the percentage of protein.


Wellness large breed puppy (chix, protein 26%)
California natural puppy (chix or lamb, protein 26%)
Innova large breed puppy (chix/turkey, protein 24%)
Eagle Pack large breed puppy (lamb, protein 23%)

These are just a few...there are more out there....


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

Ardeagold said:


> Different dogs do well on different foods. Start with something pretty basic...chicken based, and go from there. Oh, and if you decide to go with a Lamb based food...make SURE it has Taurine. This is IMPERATIVE!


I've been reading, such as the NaturaPet brands, that if the food has high enough digestibility, there is no need to add extra taurine since there will be enough naturally occurring taurine being digested.


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## Jesse3 (Jun 6, 2009)

Thank you all so much! Your advice has been so helpful. I think I finally have a handle on what I should be looking for. By the way, what beautiful dogs you all have. I wish I had a clue how to put in a picture of my own little one.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> I've been reading, such as the NaturaPet brands, that if the food has high enough digestibility, there is no need to add extra taurine since there will be enough naturally occurring taurine being digested.


I wouldn't chance it based on the study of Newfs and Goldens being prone to DCM (Dilated Cardiomyopathy) when fed a lamb-based diet. Lack of Taurine is the culprit.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Doodle said:


> Wellness large breed puppy (chix, protein 26%)
> California natural puppy (chix or lamb, protein 26%)
> Innova large breed puppy (chix/turkey, protein 24%)
> Eagle Pack large breed puppy (lamb, protein 23%)
> ...


I think these that Doodle listed are excellent also.

It was mentioned earlier that grain-free is not recommended for puppies. Now, that may be the poster's personal preference, but some grain-free formulas do fit the profile adequately for puppies. Again, it's a matter of reading the labels. The best known one is Orijen Large Breed Puppy kibble with proper levels and ratios of calcium/phosphorus. It is 42% protein, which hasn't been shown to be a problem with puppies, but it's up to individual choice. My 2 yr. old lab was fed Orijen Lg Breed Puppy from 8 weeks to 7 months with very steady growth rate and did well in all respects.
Another grain-free is the "all life stages" Canidae Grain Free with more moderate protein of 34%. I'm not specifically recommending these over other good choices you've been give; but I did want to clarify that some grain-free formulas are appropriate for puppies.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

MyBentley said:


> I think these that Doodle listed are excellent also.


Same here. A large breed puppy food or an all life stages food with comparable quality ingredients and key nutrient values (i.e. protein, fat, calcium, phosphorus, calories, etc) would give your pup a solid foundation. I would recommend kinda heeding your vets advice by choosing a food that has no more than two protein sources and miminal carbs/grains however, so more feeding options are open to you should pup develop any allergies down the line.

Also, take the Dog Food Analysis rating site with a grain of salt. Here's a much more objective and comprehensive site to educate yourself on overall canine nutrition: http://www.dogfoodproject.com/

Good luck!


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

Ardeagold said:


> I wouldn't chance it based on the study of Newfs and Goldens being prone to DCM (Dilated Cardiomyopathy) when fed a lamb-based diet. Lack of Taurine is the culprit.


Not to worry - Cal Natural adds taurine to all their lamb based formulas, so all bases are covered.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Orijen is an exception to almost everything...it's the one the Newf breeder is trying out on the litter of Newf puppies. The 6 Fish, in fact.

The problem is that you can get into the minutiae of differences...why certain rules apply to one food, and not another.

I also agree that the Dog Food Project site is much more balanced than Dog Food Analysis is. I have more faith in that site for factually based information.

To keep things simple, my opinion would be....high quality Large Breed Puppy, or All Life Stages food. Fish based diet isn't recommended. Grains...okay...but rice/oatmeal based is preferable. Wheat/corn/soy NOT okay in dog food...but okay off the kitchen table. Lamb diet should have Taurine. Orijen for Puppies would be the food of choice...and it IS grain free. It's the only exception to non-grain free with puppies I'd be comfortable with.

That's about covers it! :lol:


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

Sorry to hijack thread but,

What is considered enough taurine within a diet? I've looked on-line a bit and can't seem to find any actual numbers of percentages.

AG?


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Don't most lamb foods have added taurine now? I know Nature's Variety does.

My Gunner who is 6 had a major allergic reaction to something in the NB fish and sweet potato. He lost a ton of weight and coat, got very dry skin. When I put him back on his original Nature's Variety Salmon, he has gained back the weight and his coat is coming back. 

I would also recommend a large breed puppy quality food.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

I'm not sure what "enough" is, but since that research into DCM was published, the higher quality foods all started adding taurine to lamb-based diets. (Which has occurred in just the past 2 yrs or so). I'm sure there's some formula they've come up with.

And no...not all foods are adding taurine to lamb diets. I've run across a few that aren't.

Which brings me to another thought. PRIOR to this taurine issue, you always heard the food manufacturers say that you should never add anything to a dog's diet if you feed their kibble because it was, supposedly, a "complete and balanced diet...by AAFCO standards".

Obviously the taurine deficiency proved that not to be the case.

So now, every time I hear someone say they never give their dogs table scraps, or add anything to the diet because the dog food is complete and balanced nutrition, I kind of cringe.

We don't know what's missing...or what's lacking from those commercial diets that may turn out to be crucial for our animal's long-term health. And obviously the manufacturers don't either. And AAFCO didn't know either. Sometimes you don't know what's missing until you do. (I know that doesn't seem to make sense...but think about it)

Anyway...I add things to our dogs diets. Table scraps/leftovers, soups/stews (minus onions), raw bones, yogurt and cottage cheese (as long as they're not intolerant of milk products), canned Salmon (only with USA stamped on top), canned Jack Mackerel, Sardines packed in water, eggs, bread, fruits, veggies, etc etc. What I eat...they eat (except raisins, grapes, chocolate and onions).

I also add Wild Salmon Oil, and a joint support supplement (powder form), every day.

I cut back the amount of commercial kibble when I add calories from another source, and keep an eye on overall weight gain. I also am careful about anything "new" or "too rich" and limit quantities of things that might cause digestive upset.

There was once a day (long long ago when I was knee high to a grasshopper) when dogs ONLY got table scraps...or maybe some Gaines Burgers, Gravy Train or other garbage dog food mixed in. Yet so many of those dogs lived well into their mid to late teens. I believe that it was because they were truly getting a balanced diet, eating what the humans ate. 

There may be an argument that they weren't really better off, but IMO they certainly weren't any worse off than the dogs are today, eating ONLY kibble because the manufacturers say it's "complete and balanced nutrition".

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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

I agree wholeheartedly with Ardeagold's statements in the last post about not depending on any one kibble to completely provide every nutritional need perfectly. Adding a reasonable amount of well-chosen table foods as she suggests really seems like a healthy route to go.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

ardeagold said:


> i'm not sure what "enough" is, but since that research into dcm was published, the higher quality foods all started adding taurine to lamb-based diets. (which has occurred in just the past 2 yrs or so). I'm sure there's some formula they've come up with.
> 
> And no...not all foods are adding taurine to lamb diets. I've run across a few that aren't.
> 
> ...


 
bravo, bravo, bravo.


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## buckeyegoldenmom (Oct 5, 2008)

Ardeagold said:


> Fish based diets are not considered appropriate for puppies in general. It's being tried with Newfs...BUT Fish is their natural, historical diet, so things are going well, so far with them.
> 
> I can see the Vet's point - it's based on sound Immunological data. Don't "eliminate" things at the onset. Deal with issues when and IF they arrive. Things can be "tweaked" when and if necessary.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what my vet has told me as well.


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## MyGoldenCharlie (Dec 4, 2007)

My vet feels the same way about certain "special" dog foods. He explained it to me this way...well,this is how I understood it anyhow...
It used to be if a dog had allergies, we would recommend lamb, then the food makers started making lamb based foods and marketing as "vet preferred". That took lamb away as a tool for the vets to use when figuring out an allergy. He now will use venison.
When venison is suggested to someone for their dog for a medical reason, they tell their friends "oh, my vet recommends venison" when in reality it is not that venison is the better food, but the tool being used by the vet to help the dog. Eventually that will be taken away as a tool for the vets to use as well.
He doesn't feel that the expensive labeled dog foods are any better than the less expensive foods.


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## LullaBelle (Apr 24, 2009)

I agree with MyBentley. It's the calcium levels that you should be careful with when it comes to a growing golden puppy. We will be feeding our pup Orijen Large Breed Puppy. Ardeagold's last post is pretty enlightening as well. I agree, it sounds like a great idea to add table scraps to the dog's food and not just rely on kibble alone. Plus, it makes meal time more enjoyable. What kind of joint support supplement powder do you put in your dog's food, Ardeagold? Do you use it as a preventative measure or do your dogs have joint problems? Would it be okay to try this with a puppy as well? Then again, because I'm worried about calcium levels, it would probably make more sense to wait until he is an adult before I consider this. I'd really be interested in learning more about your feeding methods.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> It's the calcium levels that you should be careful with when it comes to a growing golden puppy.


More than that. It's the calcium/phosphorus RATIO that's important. 



> What kind of joint support supplement powder do you put in your dog's food, Ardeagold? Do you use it as a preventative measure or do your dogs have joint problems? Would it be okay to try this with a puppy as well?


I have used liquid Wild Salmon Oil and The Wholistic Pet Canine Complete Joint Therapy (the powder) with ALL of my dogs for years.

The puppies were put on it immediately upon arrival in our house (Goldens 8 weeks, Newfs 10 weeks). To help support growing joints, and to keep them healthy throughout their lives. 

These two things will not prevent dysplastic hips/elbows, etc. The dog would be born with those issues. They're genetic. BUT...they do help a lot of a dog IS dysplastic. The main objective is joint and immune system support. 

Every dog in this house gets both every day. 

I get both here -

Salmon Oil: http://www.thewholisticpet.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=554&ParentCat=42

Organic joint support: http://www.thewholisticpet.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=548&ParentCat=40

IF you're concerned about the calcium ascorbate (Ester C) listed on the list of ingredients in the joint support powder...I never was because it's not "calcium" per se ... it's the buffering to help coat the Vitamin C. Not enough in a dose to make a difference in the dietary requirements.

But...if that worries you...at LEAST give the pup something with glucosomine/chrondroitin as he/she grows...for support of those joints.


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

Ag- so taurine should be added to lamb-based diets, but is not needed in say chicken or beef diets?


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Bock...I think these findings appeared "spontaneously". They were studying DCM...not taurine in particular. Lamb and rice-based diets are the only diets mentioned. 

However, I've noticed that since the study, many OTHER flavors (like chicken, etc) are also listing taurine on the labels. The question is whether or not it's helping...or due to the processing, it's being rendered less viable. That's being studied now as well.

Here's the study on Newfs - there's one on Goldens too, but you have to pay for the full abstract:



> Recently, dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM),7 reportedly induced by diet, has been observed in privately owned adult dogs of varying genetic backgrounds (2–4). *Common findings in affected dogs are large body size, very low blood taurine concentration, and maintenance on a lamb meal and rice-containing commercial diet. *Dilated cardiomyopathy is among the most common of acquired heart diseases in dogs (5). Although still primarily a disease without a known cause, several etiologies have been proposed, including heritable genetic mutations, viral infections, immune-mediated disorders, arrhythmias, toxins, and nutritional deficiencies. Inadequate provision of dietary taurine will eventually result in systemic taurine deficiency in all cats and development of DCM in a high percentage of cats (6). A requirement for dietary taurine is not generally recognized in dogs. Like many species, dogs appear able to synthesize taurine from dietary methionine and cyst(e)ine in amounts sufficient to meet tissue needs (7).


http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/136/10/2525

Here's the abstract which includes Goldens but doesn't discuss diet:

http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=20053023712

And here's something I found too:



> Taurine is an amino acid that is good for the heart. Taurine deficiency may be linked to feeding certain lamb and rice diets, and to feeding very low-protein diets. Studies suggest that taurine supplementation may be helpful for dogs with heart failure even when no deficiency exists. Certain breeds of dogs have been found to develop dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) that is linked to taurine deficiency. *Affected breeds include the American Cocker Spaniel, Porguguese Water Dog, Newfoundland and Golden Retriever.* Other breeds that may be affected include the Scottish Terrier, Border Collie, Doberman Pinscher, and potentially other large and giant breeds as well. It is less likely that DCM in the Doberman Pinscher and Boxer is related to taurine deficiency, though supplementation will not hurt. Give as much as 250 mg to a small dog, 500 mg to a medium dog and 750 mg to a large dog, twice a day. Taurine is best given on an empty stomach. Note that taurine is abundant in raw meat, particularly heart, but much is lost when the meat is cooked. You may want to add some raw meat to the diet if your dog suffers from heart disease. Lamb and rice diets may contribute to taurine deficiency, either due to the effect of rice or a lower availability of taurine in lamb.


http://www.dogaware.com/specific.html


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

MyBentley said:


> I agree wholeheartedly with Ardeagold's statements in the last post about not depending on any one kibble to completely provide every nutritional need perfectly. Adding a reasonable amount of well-chosen table foods as she suggests really seems like a healthy route to go.


Same here as commercial foods claiming balanced diets are doing so based on what they know of balanced diets _at this time_. Surely that will evolve with continued research and findings. My main concern with the home additives however is to avoid knocking nutritional balances out of whack. For instance, if your dogs is doing well, should digestive enzymes, probiotics and/or fibers be added to foods already containing them? What about vitamins, minerals and omegas? Are acceptable fruits and vegetables best served raw or cooked? How much cooked meat can you add before you have to worry about supplementing with calcium? How much kibble should you cut back on in place of fresh ingredients added? Etc, etc, etc...


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## LullaBelle (Apr 24, 2009)

Ardeagold said:


> I have used liquid Wild Salmon Oil and The Wholistic Pet Canine Complete Joint Therapy (the powder) with ALL of my dogs for years.


How much of the salmon oil and joint support powder do you give them daily? And does the amount differ according to weight and age? Thanks.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

LullaBelle said:


> How much of the salmon oil and joint support powder do you give them daily? And does the amount differ according to weight and age? Thanks.


It is dosed according to weight and is on the label. Here is the site:

http://www.thewholisticpet.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=548&ParentCat=40


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## fameb (Feb 10, 2009)

Why is fish formula bad?

I've fed ours Origen, TOTW, and now Acana. The TOTW and Acana were both the fish forumulas. I chose fish, because of itching problems and my pups heart condition. I assumed Omega 3 and other ingredients would give better support for his heart. He's 7 months old now, and doing fine. But after reading this thread I'm a little concerned about feeding fish formulas.

I also add Missing Link Plus and Yogurt to his meals.


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

It's not bad by any means, it is just regarded by many as a stand-by food in case beef/chicken/lamb formulas do not work for your dog. If you are already using fish and an allergy develops where do you go from there? that's the only thing with the fish formula, nothing bad what so ever.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

To ArdeaGold and anyone with experience using The Wholisitic Joint Support powder:

1) Is this supplement suitable for use with any dog (young as well as aging?) and, in your experience, is it safe for longterm use?

2) As this supplement already contains digestive aids, is it advisable to add it to a food already containing probiotics (would that be too much of a good thing)?

3) How stong is the garlic influence in it (such that it would turn off a dog not overly fond of garlic)?

4) The dosage instructions for this supplement seem different than that of similar joint products (i.e. the gradual introduction to full dose verses starting at a double amount and scaling back). Can you tell me what the maintenance dose for an 80lb dog would be - can't really ascertain this from the website and therefore unsure the trial amount to order.

5) Many joint supplements are sourced from shellfish - can this produce allergic reactions in dogs?


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

I'm not a huge fan of Natural Balance because its meat content is pretty low in all of its formulas (would prefer something like Innova Large Breed Puppy).





Bock said:


> It's not bad by any means, it is just regarded by many as a stand-by food in case beef/chicken/lamb formulas do not work for your dog. If you are already using fish and an allergy develops where do you go from there? that's the only thing with the fish formula, nothing bad what so ever.


You try any different protein source. Venison, duck, different kind of fish, rabbit, turkey, or even one of the traditional beef/chicken/lamb, maybe it's just a fish problem. You can try a different carb source too - Nature's Variety uses tapioca, lots use rice, you can get regular potatoes or sweet potatoes (although I'm not sure those are different enough that a potato-allergic dog would do fine with sweet potatoes). Or even some of the newer canned formulas that are only meat and random vegetables and stuff.

I know you're just explaining why vets think that and it's not your personal opinion ... but it doesn't really make sense.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Garfield said:


> To ArdeaGold and anyone with experience using The Wholisitic Joint Support powder:
> 
> 1) Is this supplement suitable for use with any dog (young as well as aging?) and, in your experience, is it safe for longterm use?
> 
> ...


1) Yes...ours start out on it, and continue on it for life. 

2) We add to a food that has probiotics and digestive enzymes. Not sure how much of this they get in a commercially "cooked" food anyway.

3) I can't smell garlic at all...but perhaps a dog can. 

4) Dosage provided below....you start out with a smaller amount and increase to 2 tsp per day for dogs over 60 lbs

5) Anything can produce allergic reactions to a sensitive individual. 

Here's the dosage chart from the site:

*Directions for Use:
Initially introduce Wholistic Canine Complete Joint Mobility™ by starting with 1/4 the recommended dosage, gradually increasing over one week.

Daily Dosage:

1 tsp/10 lbs (1 tbsp/30 lbs)

2 tbsp for dogs 60 lbs and over

Can be given during or after mealtime. Administer daily.

Divide amount equally if administered more than once
per day.*


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

katieanddusty said:


> I'm not a huge fan of Natural Balance because its meat content is pretty low in all of its formulas (would prefer something like Innova Large Breed Puppy).
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You're right, I was just trying to explain what vets think, but fish formulas are quite a bit easier to find and cheaper to purchase than vension, duck, kangaroo, buffalo, etc. so I understand where they are coming from.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

You're right, you can get Natural Balance fish formulas at Petco (and a Science Diet fish and potato from your vet which is usually where they're really coming from). But I think there's also a Pinnacle duck formula at Petsmart, and in most places you can find a store that sells Nature's Variety which has pretty much every other protein source you can think of (other than buffalo and kangaroo - now those would be expensive).


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