# Salmon oil & Vit E?



## Charlie06 (Feb 10, 2007)

*If you supplement with fish oils studies have shown that it lowers the levels of Vit E in the blood. And could cause immune issues in your dogs.*

I read this in another forum. I have been using salmon oil for about 2 mths now and then I see this...aarrghhhh I'm giving Charlie Cosamin and Ester-C and Salmon oil. Do I have to be giving him Vitamin E too? Funny, I don't take any vitamins......lol


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

I have always given Vit E along with salmon oil, I read something similar, stops the vit E getting absorbed...


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## Charlie06 (Feb 10, 2007)

Do you know offhand how much you give? Why can't there be one pill with everything they need.....lol


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Hi, I use 400iu of vitamin E with a couple of tablespoons of salmon oil

(Choose D-alpha-tocopherol as this is the natural type and most easily assimilated by the body, dl-alpha-tocopherol is the synthetic version, cheaper but not so effective.)


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

This is the one I buy...hope it helps!

http://www.healthspan.co.uk/antioxi...l_antioxidant_anti_ageing_boost-c122p420.html


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

That's an awful lot of vit. E. The Carlson's fish oil I use has vit E in it.....10 mg per teaspoon full. I also give them a 100 mg capsule a couple times a week. Think I'll do some more reading today..........


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I give one capsule Omega3 Fish Oil 1200 mg and one capsule Vitamin E 200 IU dl-Alpha. Both are human supplements.
Is this ratio OK? I've been giving it for 2 years. He has no skin or allergy issues. I started it when he had juvenile pyoderma as a pup and no problems since.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

hmm...I read 200iu for small dogs and 400iu is fine for a goldie...I also read you can't overdose on either fish oil or vit E (unlike say, vitamin A where too much can be toxic)

...but Im no expert, just what I have been doing with mine!


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## Charlie06 (Feb 10, 2007)

I'm really going crazy with all of this. So if I start giving the Vitamin E, should I stop with Ester-C? I don't really want to be popping him with all kinds of vitamins and supplements everyday.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I have my Natural Health Bible for Dogs and Cats by Shawn Messonnier, DVM. He is a well known/ respected vet in the Dallas area and this book is WONDERFUL. I would highly recommend that EVERYONE have a copy. I'll copy a small portion of what he says, " The AAFCO recommendation for vitamin E is 50 IU/kg of food for dogs and 30 IU/kg of food for cats. For foods containing fish oil, additional antioxidation is needed and it is recommended that an additional amount of vitamin E be added to the diet (10 IU of vitamin E/gm of fishoil/kg of food ). Vitamin E does have a "blood thinning" effect that could lead to problems in certain situations." Elsewhere he says to discontinue vit E and any garlic ( same blood thinning effect ) before any surgical procedure. Also, I try to supplement with whole food supplements and avoid chemical additions. The food supplements are much better absorbed and there is no risk of "over dose"...... MHO


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Well I have never bothered with vitamin C, have always stuck to the fish oil (and therefore the vit E) but I doubt it would do any harm for him to have them along with the Ester-C. To be honest I think if you are feeding a good quality complete food he SHOULD be getting his vits, I will always feed the Fish oil and vit e for Tilly's autoimmune disorder, and Harrys coat always looks better on it. Maybe just give the supplements a couple of times a week? It does seem odd to me aswell, to be giving the dogs so many supplements when I don't take any!


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## Charlie06 (Feb 10, 2007)

Is the human capsule form of fish oil just as good as the salmon oil? If so, I'll probably switch. It would be a lot easier and less messy


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## Charlie06 (Feb 10, 2007)

I wanted to switch his food to The Honest Kitchen but it is so expensive. But when you think about all the supplements and canned food I'm using with his kibble it might all even out.....

If I only cared so much about what I put into my mouth...lol


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Charlie06 said:


> Is the human capsule form of fish oil just as good as the salmon oil? If so, I'll probably switch. It would be a lot easier and less messy


You'd probably have to give quite a few pills to equal what they're getting in the liquid. Remember that the important part of fish oil is the DHA/EPA omega 3's...mine are getting 1600 mg EPA adn 1000 mg DHA daily in theirCarlsons Very Finest Fish Oil.

A good site with articles about the benefits / studies about omega 3's is www.seapet.com Have never used their products, but find the info helpful


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Penny and Maggie's mom...I was just getting a bit paniced as I thought I must have read something terribly wrong when I was doing my research a few years ago...but I think 400iu of vit E for a 75lb dog is ok, as Ive been to a few canine heath sites and it seems to be a fairly normal amount to be giving...I know the internet isnt always the most valuable place to be researching but I don't remember my vet being much help when I asked her about it! Anyway, I will continue with their normal dosage.

*



Vitamin E: 
Vitamin E is an important nutrient which has been shown to have a number of physiologic and pharmacologic effects. It in a potent antioxidant and reduces fat oxidation and increases the production of HDL cholesterol. At higher doses, it also reduces cyclooxygenase and lipooxygenase activities, decreasing production of prostaglandins and leukotreines. As such, it is a potent anti-inflammatory drug. It will reduce platelet function and prolong the bleeding time slightly in healthy individuals. There is no known side-effects to vitamin E at levels less than 4000-6000 IU per day (except in cats, where levels >100 IU/day can create hepatolipidosis). I recommend that vitamin E be given to all dogs. For dogs under 2 years of age, give 400 IU of vitamin E daily. For dogs over 2 years of age, give 800 IU of vitamin E daily. 
R.M. Clemmons, DVM, PhDAssociate Professor of Neurology & NeurosurgeryDepartment of Small Animal Clinical Sciences

Click to expand...

*


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Please do a search as there has already been sooooo much discussed about fish oil and Vit E...

Yes, both can be overdosed... until 3 years ago it was believe vit E was safe at any dose but then a long term study disproved all that... that's when the mega Vit E supplements (1200mg) were removed from store shelves leaving only the 200mg and 400mg. 400mg is the highest level considered safe for long term use in humans... you can extrapolate for your dog. Initial doses of Vit E will cause elevated blood pressure so be careful and increase gradually with older dogs. The often cited reason for the suggestion to increase Vit E intake with additions of fat into one's diet is that all fats go rancid in time... inside the body as well as out... rancidity is a reaction with oxygen to create free radicals... thus anti-oxidants are believe to forestall this reaction... Well, Vit E is a fat-soluble anti-oxidant vitamin.

Also too much fish oil will cause soft stools and can lead to diarrhea problems, fishy or 'acid' breath due to ketosis occurring (definitely not good), unbalanced Omega 3/6 ratio (there is an optimum ratio and too much Omega 3's can lead to problems since it suppresses inflammation responses)... its not just the amount but also the ratio that's important when supplementing the diet.

There are two problems associated with wholesale supplimentation... you don't know how much your dog is getting from his food rations to begin with, so how can you control the amount and ratios? Unfortunately the answer here is: by experimenting with your dog...


EDIT: Below is an excerpt and a cautionary comment...
*What are the results of the HOPE-TOO Study?*

A report published in the March 16, 2005 issue of the _Journal of the American Medical Association_ finds no clear evidence that men and women who had vascular disease or diabetes and who took 400 i.u. of vitamin E daily for 7 years reduced their risk of cancer compared to others with these conditions who took a placebo. The study was not large enough to determine if vitamin E could prevent specific cancers.
The report also showed that those taking vitamin E had a 13 percent increased risk of heart failure, a condition in which the heart's ability to pump blood is weakened. The report comes from a clinical trial called the Heart Outcomes Prevention Evaluation Study Extension (HOPE-TOO).
These results emphasize the need to study vitamins and other natural products prior to making public health recommendations.


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## Charlie06 (Feb 10, 2007)

*There are two problems associated with wholesale supplimentation... you don't know how much your dog is getting from his food rations to begin with, so how can you control the amount and ratios? Unfortunately the answer here is: by experimenting with your dog...
*
So true, but I don't know if I trust myself to experiment with my dog. So much information can make you crazy!! and I'm a confused person to begin with


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I'm glad you got the point I was trying to make... whenever any of us begins to supplement our dogs diet, if you really don't know what you are doing, then it is nothing more than experimenting with your dog's life. This can really hit home after a dog dies before their time. These are some tips (guidelines) I can offer... vitamin supplementation is usually safe with the exception of Vits A and D over a time period... they are fat soluble and can be stored-up to lethal quantities within the body... the other vits are usually deemed relatively safe however I would still avoid mega doses. Also about Vit C supplementation... dogs' livers produce their own (distinct) molecular version of Vit C and it is believed in some nutritional circles that you will depress (possibly atrophy) that organ's ability to do this by supplementing with mega doses of other (there are 3 different types) molecular versions of it. Stay away from mineral supplementations unless you REALLY know what you are doing as these are very tricky... many minerals have to be balanced over time otherwise deficiencies can lead to major health issues, of which many are irreversible. Supplement with 'real' foods whenever possible rather than concentrated 'pills' or synthetics... this often offers a margin of safety against 'overdosing' and besides, 'real' foods tend to be more balanced to begin with. Finally I would suggest always rotate any supplements... give it for a while and then give it a 'rest' before resuming... this will help your dog's bodily systems to balance any unintentional 'overages' over time.

Its important to remember that unlike in the wilds, dogs cannot pick and choose food according to cravings and the seasons (similar as to how we humans do to naturally balance our diets)... they can only eat what we choose to put into their bowls... balanced nutrition for the years under these artificial conditions it is not so easy as it might sound. Often nutritional deficiencies will not take its toll for months and even years and by the time symptoms are apparent its often too late to reverse many of the detrimental effects on your dog's health.


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## Charlie06 (Feb 10, 2007)

Thank you everyone for this info. I will now begin trying to process all of this.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

One other word about nutritional deficiencies...
It might be unclear from the foregoing how these deficencies can be possible when we are supplementing (adding to) the diet. It is because so many times its a question of BALANCE and RATIOS rather than the absolute amount of any one factor. A typical example: There can be an excess of calcium in the diet but if there is an even greater phosphorus intake, this can upset the ratio and a severe calcium deficiency will be the result.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

My girls each get one of the fish oil capsuls (1000) in the morning and again at night and they get one of the 400 Vit. E caps at night. They also get an EsterC which is suppose to be for immune system, a milk thistle cp for liver and a cranberry cap for kidneys.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Does anyone remember the posts on chat goldens from guy who worked in a lab? I remember his saying the Vitamin E supplementation should be limited and he gave the reasons for it. I seem to remember his not having a problem with supplementiing with fish oil.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Lots of holistic vets recommend both fish oil and vit E supplementation.


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