# Corrections; What's your approach, generally?



## KathyG (Nov 21, 2011)

EvanG said:


> I started this topic on another forum, but no one has taken it up. It may hit closer to home than some trainers care to admit. I'm very interested in what you think.
> 
> I've noticed a fairly common practice of some trainers to correct their dogs for what they _thought_ the dog might do, such as break; "Sit"/nick (or "Sit"/stick - "Sit") before calling for a mark, for example. I understand that it's often viewed as a precaution by the trainer. But I'm curious about how others see this practice. I've seen this type of thinking across the country from many who attend my seminars.
> 
> ...


I have a friend with a lab that does this. Dog has 4 master passes, the last one earned 3 years ago. Can't finish due to dancing on the line. In my opinion, they created the stress.

I don't think 'sit/nick/sit' is reinforcing sit or correcting for failure to sit unless the dog is actually moving. Otherwise, he just got in trouble for sitting next to you?

I use a tab on their collar to reinforce sit until they are steady.

Kathy


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Interesting question 

I used to do 'automatic' corrections with some things. I no longer consider it fair or reasonable so if I do correct, it is only after the dog has deliberately failed to respond or shown a lack of effort - on a known command.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well I'll own up that generally my mistake is not giving a correction when it was needed rather than giving one when it wasn't....but I have seen what you are talking about. A friend has a dog that is terrible about breaking and has ants in his pants and she is often doing that. I think she's afraid he's going to break.

Corrections are only when a dog makes an infraction and knows better and knows the correction.


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

Unless I physically see that butt start to lift off the ground, there is no correction on my end. I'm a firm believer in having confidence in your dog. For my dog to succeed, I feel that I need to be confident that he will succeed. Correcting him for something he didn't do isn't having that confidence that is so necessary to his success.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Interesting question, Evan!
I have a 2 part answer.
In general, I don't correct for something the dog hasn't done wrong. I wait until he's fully committed to the wrong choice before correcting. 
However, the second part is, if I know my dog has an issue with something (autocasting, for example), he may get a light nick to remind him to pay attention to me, even though he hasn't done anything wrong, *yet*.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

prior to the introduction of indirect pressure, I only correct for refusals or a lack of effort.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Can of worms.... Not a field trainer nor an OTCH wannabe. I generally do not correct my dogs. Depending on the dog, I either do it or again or if the dog is not too soft, I say too bad and maybe tether the dog and walk away....


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I would never correct the dog for something that I thought she might do. I am not a mindreader.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My first golden was done if you corrected her.. it was a fine line... And she easily got a CDX. Children on my part made any other titles impossible... with her.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

On that one we go back to the holding blind or back in the truck if I think the dog is going to break. Dog does not get the reward of the retrieve unless they behave. I watch the dog and if I think they are getting loose I don't call for the bird. If they get loose after the birds are called for they don't get them. You don't have collars,heeling sticks etc. in a test. They know when they are there and when they are not. Most of this should be taken care of early with their OB. I will correct when a dog makes a wrong decision and am certain they made the wrong decision. Then I work them through it.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Depends on your definition of correction. Mine varies by venue. In agility, "uh oh, what happened? try again" is a correction. It merely gives him information that he hasn't made the right choice, thus it has corrected what he has done. Obviously I can't make the correction until he has made the mistake.
In obedience, I have to be pretty careful with how I correct. He considers having to do an exercise over again to be a pretty stern correction. Again, just gives him information that he didn't make the right choice. He tends to melt quickly if he thinks he has screwed up in obedience. Once again, I can't make the correction until he has made the mistake.
But in field....when he's taking off like a rocket after a flushed bird, heading for a steep ravine with a rocky drop-off 30 feet down, he's going to get a WHOLE lot more than "uh oh, try again". In the field, when I see his instincts and base drives take over, he will take a very stern correction and just flat out ignore it.





Sally's Mom said:


> Can of worms.... Not a field trainer nor an OTCH wannabe. I generally do not correct my dogs. Depending on the dog, I either do it or again or if the dog is not too soft, I say too bad and maybe tether the dog and walk away....


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

KathyG said:


> I don't think 'sit/nick/sit' is reinforcing sit or correcting for failure to sit unless the dog is actually moving. Otherwise, he just got in trouble for sitting next to you?





KathyG said:


> Kathy


I think we can agree, but with a qualification. “Sit/nick/sit” is a classic application of pressure to reinforce sit. There is no other reason to do it. It sure doesn’t reinforce “Here”! But where we agree (and this is really the point of the discussion) is that is not really a correction in this case because the dog hasn’t been allowed to actually violate a command. And you’ve nailed it; he merely got in trouble for sitting next to you.

I’ll mention this again because it’s very important. But what we should understand about dogs is that they live in the moment, and are situational learners. They’re not our fuzzy, four-legged little kids – complete with language skills and abstract thinking skills.


hotel4dogs said:


> Interesting question, Evan!





hotel4dogs said:


> I have a 2 part answer.
> 1. In general, I don't correct for something the dog hasn't done wrong. I wait until he's fully committed to the wrong choice before correcting.


I’m with you all the way on that! 


hotel4dogs said:


> 2. However, the second part is, if I know my dog has an issue with something (auto casting, for example), he may get a light nick to remind him to pay attention to me, even though he hasn't done anything wrong, *yet*.


But I’m not with you on this one. The reason is that by doing that you’ve actually deprived yourself of constructive training by hiding from what you feared might happen. Instead, if you know the dog is inclined toward a certain misbehavior, let him do it and deal with it in the moment of infraction. That’s how a situational learner works!


Swampcollie said:


> *prior* to the introduction of indirect pressure, I only correct for refusals or a lack of effort.


And afterward?


Radarsdad said:


> On that one *we go back to the holding blind or back in the truck if I think the dog is going to break.*


Do you know what your dog is learning about steadiness as you walk back to the truck without ever having even seen a bird fall or hearing a shot fired? Nothing! He already knew how to walk. That’s all that’s happening as you head for the truck. They live in the moment. In that moment you’re just walking. You think it’s a result of his impending unsteadiness. He’s just doing what came next. If you want him to learn a long term steadiness standard you must treat unsteadiness in the moment, and in a way that allows the dog to understand that his misbehavior is connected to the marks he loves.


Radarsdad said:


> Dog does not get the reward of the retrieve unless they behave.


I am in full agreement with this principle. But if a dog has not been allowed a chance to behave, he cannot earn a reward for it, nor can he be accurately assessed for misbehavior because it never had a chance to happen.


Radarsdad said:


> I watch the dog and if I think they are getting loose I don't call for the bird. If they get loose after the birds are called for they don't get them.


Thereby effectively hiding the dog from what may have been a truly teachable moment. *Far better to keep Fido on line and throw birds and pick up and deny him those birds until he meets your standard *_for no movement. Then reward him with the retrieve *only* when he meets your steadiness standard._


Radarsdad said:


> You don't have collars, heeling sticks etc. in a test. They know when they are there and when they are not.


All the more reason to train effectively at home before putting an under-trained dog under judgment. Train first; test later.


Radarsdad said:


> Most of this should be taken care of early with their OB. I will correct when a dog makes a wrong decision and am certain they made the wrong decision. Then I work them through it.


You only provide yourself and your dog with tools during obedience training. You cannot steady a retriever until he’s been placed in front of enough falling birds, and had his steadiness standard upheld and rewarded. 

Great discussion so far! Well done!

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

But you see Evan, goldens are THINKING dogs! I'm correcting him for THINKING of doing something wrong


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

I disagree about denying birds for poor line manners. Seen too many pros do it and recommend it. It works for me that's all I need to know. They were allowed a chance to behave on the line and they didn't. Therefore they don't get the bird (reward). When the dog behaves he gets the birds.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I dont use an e-collar with my dog Jige. If I think he might break at the line I put one finger on his head and say wait then I move my finger. His marks are right on so I havent had to do any type of correction in the field not sure how I would handle a correction in the field I guess I will figure that out when I need to. 

As long as he is doing what I ask and he and I are having fun we will continue to train this way.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Radarsdad said:


> I disagree about denying birds for poor line manners. Seen too many pros do it and recommend it. It works for me that's all I need to know. They were allowed a chance to behave on the line and they didn't. Therefore they don't get the bird (reward). When the dog behaves he gets the birds.


Can you be more specific about what you disagree with?


EvanG said:


> *Far better to keep Fido on line and throw birds and pick up and deny him those birds until he meets your standard *_for no movement. Then reward him with the retrieve *only* when he meets your steadiness standard._


What that means is that he’s denied the bird in the moment for unsteadiness, and sent on those for which he was steady. My point of contention is with denying him the bird, walking him back to the truck, and putting him in the kennel – to be brought back later; “outright denial”. There are no ‘A-list’ pros who do that. But virtually all treat such misbehavior in the moment so the dog can connect the dots. Do you see a discrepancy in this? If so, what?


General V said:


> I dont use an e-collar with my dog Jige. If I think he might break at the line I put one finger on his head and say wait then I move my finger. His marks are right on so I havent had to do any type of correction in the field not sure how I would handle a correction in the field I guess I will figure that out when I need to.





General V said:


> As long as he is doing what I ask and he and I are having fun we will continue to train this way.


I did that too, when I was a new trainer. I found out the hard way that when you do it in front of a judge you are disqualified on the spot. You cannot physically touch your dog under judgment. Good luck with that.

EvanG


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Radarsdad said:


> On that one we go back to the holding blind or back in the truck if I think the dog is going to break. Dog does not get the reward of the retrieve unless they behave. I watch the dog and if I think they are getting loose I don't call for the bird. If they get loose after the birds are called for they don't get them. You don't have collars,heeling sticks etc. in a test. They know when they are there and when they are not. Most of this should be taken care of early with their OB. I will correct when a dog makes a wrong decision and am certain they made the wrong decision. Then I work them through it.





Radarsdad said:


> I disagree about denying birds for poor line manners. Seen too many pros do it and recommend it. It works for me that's all I need to know. They were allowed a chance to behave on the line and they didn't. Therefore they don't get the bird (reward). When the dog behaves he gets the birds.



I am confused here. In the first post you state that you take the dog off the line and put back in the truck if you "think" he is going to break? How is that poor line manners on the dog's part? He has not yet broke. Are you not " denying him the reward" for sitting as you asked?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> Are you not " denying him the reward" for sitting as you asked?


From a dog's perspective, that's exactly what's happening.

EvanG


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

> I did that too, when I was a new trainer. I found out the hard way that when you do it in front of a judge you are disqualified on the spot. You cannot physically touch your dog under judgment. Good luck with that.


Geez Evan I could have sworn we were talking about training in the field and not at a test. Since you can not have e-collars or use sticks on your dogs in a test. You really should treat everyone the same when you are quoting them and giving your response.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

General V said:


> Geez Evan I could have sworn we were talking about training in the field and not at a test. Since you can not have e-collars or use sticks on your dogs in a test. You really should treat everyone the same when you are quoting them and giving your response.


If you don't train in the field, testing there is futile. Yes, I'm talking about training. But, generally, I'm talking about _corrections_ and their applications; before or after the error. The notion of applying any corrective measure *before* a dog has actually committed an error removes the definition "correction" because there is nothing to correct.

My comment about the finger on the head was a light hearted poke at myself. My gosh, this isn't an embalming class!

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

It's bad when you are quoting your own posts :

I said this in jest, but after I thought about it it's true. I do correct him for *thinking about* doing something wrong.

When he's sitting looking at me waiting for a remote cast, if he turns his head away from me to look over his shoulder, I will virtually guarantee he's thinking about autocasting in that direction. He will get sit-nick-sit until he is fully focused on me, and he will sit there long enough that he will start getting nervous wondering why he is still sitting there. Technically the correction is for loss of focus, so I suppose he has already made the error at that point.

If he's out in the field and he turns to look at me with a certain look in his eye, I know he's *thinking of* going off on a wide "bird in the grass someplace" gorilla hunt. He will get corrected for that before it happens, too. Again, I guess, just thinking out loud, that the correction is for not following the line, so he's already made that error, too.

Sometimes it's a matter of knowing and reading your own dog, and staying one step ahead of what he's *thinking* of doing.



hotel4dogs said:


> But you see Evan, goldens are THINKING dogs! I'm correcting him for THINKING of doing something wrong


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Let me be more specific about a what I read in a dog about to break.
Will not heel back properly and wants stay ahead of you.
Will not sit at heel and wants to move ahead. (creeping) and continues to do it. Reheels don't work and will not sit on the ground.
Now, are you really going to reward that dog for not sitting and staying at heel and giving him the bird???
Granted you can have the Gunner pick the bird up before they get there. But if you are training alone you may not have that option.
As for "the only thing you are teaching the dog is to heel". Well, they have Walk Ups and heeling is an important part of that process. Dog didn't heel on the line what makes you think they are going to heel on a Walk Up. If they don't heel properly to line they are probably taking control or trying to.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Radarsdad said:


> Let me be more specific about a what I read in a dog about to break.
> Will not heel back properly and wants stay ahead of you.
> Will not sit at heel and wants to move ahead. (creeping) and continues to do it. Reheels don't work and will not sit on the ground.
> Now, are you really going to reward that dog for not sitting and staying at heel and giving him the bird???
> ...


I think my club got a little sick of me last winter because I would *try to heel Jige to the line.* If he broke or moved ahead I would yell no bird and head him back to the end of the line and try it again. Jige finally got it and heeled really nice after 5-6 times of NO BIRD.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

If your club got sick of you training your dog then find another club. We stop everything we are doing to teach your dog. It is training. It might be my dog that takes some time the next time.
He learned that just because the collar and the heeling stick aren't there doesn't mean he doesn't have to comply. I believe it takes every tool you need to use to train. With a high drive and intelligent dog you have to use everything in your tool box. Just like marks. Give them every possible situation you can give and teach them how to deal with it. But you have to have the line manners and control at the line to get compliance in the field and at distance. That said, training at distance requires the ecollar and proper use of it. *TIMING*
I don't know who your *A list is*. But mine are going to the National Amateur this year.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

That cleared up my confusion, I understand now what you were saying in the original post. 



Radarsdad said:


> Let me be more specific about a what I read in a dog about to break.
> Will not heel back properly and wants stay ahead of you.
> Will not sit at heel and wants to move ahead. (creeping) and continues to do it. Reheels don't work and will not sit on the ground.
> Now, are you really going to reward that dog for not sitting and staying at heel and giving him the bird???
> ...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Both this:

"Let me be more specific about a what I read in a dog about to break.
Will not heel back properly and wants stay ahead of you.
Will not sit at heel and wants to move ahead. (creeping) and continues to do it. Reheels don't work and will not sit on the ground."

And this:

" I think my club got a little sick of me last winter because I would *try to heel Jige to the line.* If he broke or moved ahead I would yell no bird and head him back to the end of the line and try it again. Jige finally got it and heeled really nice after 5-6 times of NO BIRD."

Are dogs who need to be on a frinkin LEASH TO THE LINE.
Sorry but it drives me up the wall to sit and watch someone take 10 minutes to walk their dog to the line off the leash amid 50,000 corrections and reminders to HEEL-HERE-SIT-NO-HEELHEELHEEL. All you are telling the dog is that you can take forever to calm down and act like an idiot for 10 minutes before mom really gets mad and makes you do it. PRACTICE THE BEHAVIOR YOU WANT -- NOT THE BEHAVIOR YOU WANT TO FIX. *Make the dog do it right, the first time, every time* -- and use a leash!
/rant


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Leash ain't going to work, they need to be taught how to heel and behave without a lead. Dog needs to pay attention to where you are walking to the line and or on a walk up. My dogs pay attention to where I am and shoulders square with me. Forging and Fronting me is not tolerated. You have 15 minutes to get your dog to the line. If I move my leg back when the my dog is forging they will look back to see where my leg is and where they need to be. Doesn't take minutes for them to get corrections, more like split seconds. I don't nag. Once you get past Juniors the dog has to walk to the line without lead and line manners are very important about how you and the dog work as a team. I am meticulous about how I take a dog out of the holding blind how to put them in it and take them to the line. Sets the tone of how you and your dog react. I am in control they are not.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Sorry but it drives me up the wall to sit and watch someone take 10 minutes to walk their dog to the line off the leash amid *50,000 corrections* and reminders to HEEL-HERE-SIT-NO-HEELHEELHEEL. /rant


This is any easy, but very important point often missed. Either you're correcting misbehavior or you're nagging. A corporal correction is pressure in some form, whether physical or emotional. Applying either without changing the dog's behavior has failed, by definition, to be a "correction" because it didn't correct the misbehavior.

If you continue (50,000 times) to do the same thing without definitively changing the dog's behavior you're merely nagging, and making the problem worse. The dog is telling you in the clearest of terms that the pressure you're using is not adequate. How can you know? Because if it were adequate, he would change his behavior. Turn it up, deal with it, and move on. 

All of this pretty much side steps the discussion, but it's worth talking about. It amazes me how often I see dog trainers who are walking, talking examples of "insanity"; continuing to do the same thing while expecting different results. One of my favorite sayings is "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got." If you're satisfied never to do any better, don't worry; you won't!

EvanG


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

EvanG said:


> This is any easy, but very important point often missed. Either you're correcting misbehavior or you're nagging. A corporal correction is pressure in some form, whether physical or emotional. Applying either without changing the dog's behavior has failed, by definition, to be a "correction" because it didn't correct the misbehavior.
> 
> If you continue (50,000 times) to do the same thing without definitively changing the dog's behavior you're merely nagging, and making the problem worse. The dog is telling you in the clearest of terms that the pressure you're using is not adequate. How can you know? Because if it were adequate, he would change his behavior. Turn it up, deal with it, and move on.
> 
> ...


Going to show this one to the friends I was training with last night--it is the point I was trying to make with them, and I don't know that they saw that this is what they are doing....


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I don't like to correct my dog for thinking about making a mistake...I am actually thrilled to see her think about making a wrong choice but then not do it because its a sign to me that she is learning and that she gets it....and I would never want to correct for that when in the end she made the right choice anyway.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I really do agree. I originally said it in jest, but then when I mused on it for a while, I realized that I am correcting him for something legitimate, not for thinking about making a wrong choice.
If he's waiting for a cast, and he turns his head to look over his shoulder, he's getting corrected for losing his focus on me, not for thinking of heading off in that direction.
If he starts "quartering" and I can tell he's getting ready to go off on a "bird in the grass hunt", he's really getting corrected for not staying on the line I sent him on.




GoldenSail said:


> I don't like to correct my dog for thinking about making a mistake...I am actually thrilled to see her think about making a wrong choice but then not do it because its a sign to me that she is learning and that she gets it....and I would never want to correct for that when in the end she made the right choice anyway.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> I really do agree. I originally said it in jest, but then when I mused on it for a while, I realized that I am correcting him for something legitimate, not for thinking about making a wrong choice.
> If he's waiting for a cast, and he turns his head to look over his shoulder, he's getting corrected for losing his focus on me, not for thinking of heading off in that direction.
> If he starts "quartering" and I can tell he's getting ready to go off on a "bird in the grass hunt", he's really getting corrected for not staying on the line I sent him on.


Thanks for the post, Barb. I figured this is what you were doing. My friend's dog does that too (looks around after sitting on the whistle) -- I am wanting her to correct with a sit-nick for not focusing on the handler, she is convinced the dog is looking for a blind stake  
So if you feel he is putting his nose down in cover to hunt while on a blind, what do you do?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

EvanG said:


> One of my favorite sayings is "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got." If you're satisfied never to do any better, don't worry; you won't!
> 
> EvanG


or Connie Cleveland: "if you're trying to head east and after driving 50 miles you're not any closer to Mississippi (replace with appropriate neighboring state), you must have taken the wrong highway."


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> So if you feel he is putting his nose down in cover to hunt while on a blind, what do you do?


Oh man, Pro is 2,000 miles away and this post triggered his voice in my head "Whistle, Don't let her hunt". Sorry Barb.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hollyk said:


> Oh man, Pro is 2,000 miles away and this post triggered his voice in my head "Whistle, Don't let her hunt". Sorry Barb.


If it were blatant I'd give a back-nick-back to drive them out of it or at least just a BACK.
Personally I wouldn't want to stop them because it sorta feeds into them wanting to break down in the area of scent/cover.
But that's knowing your dog and the situation, both are right at the right times.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

My thinking is it doesn't matter WHAT he's looking for, he's not doing his job, which is to sit patiently and watch me until I give him further directions. Sometimes we will make him sit for a LONG time, until he looks away, so that we can impress on him that looking away isn't the right choice.
I think the nose down to hunt is an individual dog thing. Tito pretty much always quarters at least to some degree when he puts up a hunt, so it's an easy choice to sit whistle and recast him. The correction in essence is for not staying on the line.
Sometimes I will sit him within a couple of feet of the blind even though I know he has seen it. Not in a test, of course, but in training. He needs to know that he has to sit when the whistle blows, regardless. 
Again, individual dog thing. Tito has a tendency to become self-employed and be very independent, so I can't give him an inch.




K9-Design said:


> Thanks for the post, Barb. I figured this is what you were doing. My friend's dog does that too (looks around after sitting on the whistle) -- I am wanting her to correct with a sit-nick for not focusing on the handler, she is convinced the dog is looking for a blind stake
> So if you feel he is putting his nose down in cover to hunt while on a blind, what do you do?


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> If it were blatant I'd give a back-nick-back to drive them out of it or at least just a BACK.
> Personally I wouldn't want to stop them because it sorta feeds into them wanting to break down in the area of scent/cover.
> But that's knowing your dog and the situation, both are right at the right times.


Hmm I can see what you are saying.
I'm trying to get better at catching her she starts to hunt, whistle sit and then drive her back. If I can stop her right away she will drive back nicely, but the longer I let her hunt before I stop her, the more committed she is to hunting the area. Boy, timing is everything.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Thanks for the post, Barb. I figured this is what you were doing. My friend's dog does that too (looks around after sitting on the whistle) -- I am wanting her to correct with a sit-nick for not focusing on the handler, she is convinced the dog is looking for a blind stake
> So if you feel he is putting his nose down in cover to hunt while on a blind, what do you do?


This is a rich topic all by itself. Looking off when on whistle sit generally happens for two reasons; bugging and distraction. Neither is acceptable, and many trainers recognize this. But they approach it very differently.

All too common are the trainers who beg their dogs to look at them when it's the dog's job to focus on the handler. I think newer trainers especially do the begging because they don't know what else to do, saying "Look!", or "Look at me!" They toot the whistle again and again, or any number of feckless acts. I say "feckless" because even when it works in the moment, it has little lasting effect, and so the dog remains under trained.

The other requent treatment that works faster and has a longer lasting effect is the "Toot"/nick - Toot" treatment suggested above. But that can further bug an already bugged dog, especially if they're sensitive. It also tends to work backward on the trainer's objectives because if it's done much, it establishes a negative expectation with whistle sits that can produce yet more bugging and aberrant behavior.

A rapid cast/correction routine tends to produce virtually all the desired results with only very rare side effects, and they're usually minimal.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

while I don't disagree, Evan, Tito is not bugging. He is looking for the bird. It's common for him to be "scent coning" at the same time. Hence in his particular case, he gets corrected for lack of focus (distraction).


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> while I don't disagree, Evan, Tito is not bugging. He is looking for the bird. It's common for him to be "scent coning" at the same time. Hence in his particular case, he gets corrected for lack of focus (distraction).


I got that impression from your description. Suction is often a culprit here. This is one of many areas where a good dog is suffering from being a good dog! They love birds, but that degrades obedience in many areas. This one is very common.

Those that do it out of bugging are avoiding their work by looking away. Nearly always that is a result of trainer error. Neither is acceptable.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Evan. It is an area in which I would have to say he is vastly improving. He is learning that "you ain't going nowhere buddy until you are lookin' at ME!"


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

EvanG said:


> This is a rich topic all by itself. Looking off when on whistle sit generally happens for two reasons; bugging and distraction. Neither is acceptable, and many trainers recognize this. But they approach it very differently.
> 
> All too common are the trainers who beg their dogs to look at them when it's the dog's job to focus on the handler. I think newer trainers especially do the begging because they don't know what else to do, saying "Look!", or "Look at me!" They toot the whistle again and again, or any number of feckless acts. I say "feckless" because even when it works in the moment, it has little lasting effect, and so the dog remains under trained.
> 
> ...



Hi Evan -- THANK YOU -- can you PLEASE expand on this topic, for my friend's benefit?? I will most assuredly pass it on to her.
Her bitch is 5 yrs old and has two MH passes. She is a wonderful worker, great confidence and a terribly good blind running dog. However she has had the long-standing habit of looking away when stopped on a blind. It is not always but it is frequent. I am usually quick to notice any sort of avoidance behavior (bugging) but I've never really considered this as bugging, but maybe it is...hmmmm......it does seem the looking away on an early cast is often a harbinger for a battle on that particular blind (what can I say -- she's a bitch! LOL).
My friend's tendency is to wait her out and cast when she finally looks back. This drives me crazy, I want her to correct (nick-toot or just a nick) the instant she does it. 
So are you suggesting the best way to combat it is to cast immediately and don't give her the opportunity? I understand this and can see how it would work but....I know this dog takes much better casts when her handler slows down and makes her focus before casting.
We can easily set up multiple blinds in large, wide open fields, and just handle her to whatever blind she happens to be heading at, if you feel like the instant-cast will quickly eliminate the looking away behavior. But I have a feeling it is not that much of a quick fix. When and where and what kind of collar correction is appropriate?
Thank you for any information. If you want me to start a new thread I'd be happy to do it.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Anney,

I haven't forgotten you, even if it looks like it! I've just been swamped the last few days. I'll try to lay out this procedure in the morning and post it up. It's been very successful.

EvanG


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Awesome, thanks


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

*Eye contact: whose responsibility is it?*

Few treatments are more common for the dog that looks away when sat to a whistle than having the handler beg the dog for attention. “Look!” “Look at me!” Or a toot of the whistle, or eventually a nick with the e-collar; all of which is intended to result in our dogs finally making eye contact so we can cast them – all of which assumes that it’s the human’s responsibility for this function. I submit that it’s only the human’s responsibility to have taught the function and formalized it into a trained state. Performing this function in the field becomes the responsibility of the dog. But the trainer must frame it that way in training so our dogs learn to accept that job as theirs.

I’ve watched so many dog/handler teams fecklessly go through the begging dynamic for this across the country, and have noted that it continues year after year unsolved. Why? It has little or no lasting effect. Any of those treatments do little more than make it worse, and rarely repair the problem in the long run.

*How can you motivate your dog to accept and even to seek compliance with making eye contact?*

If your dog wanted to make and keep keen eye contact with you none of the begging or correcting would be needed, would it? If it were his or her idea…if your dog was eager to know what you wanted, rather than being so easily distracted from it, or so bugged about his/her work that they looked away chronically to avoid work you would be able to form a great set of handling habits, like accurate casts. But, when you have a dog that has become chronic about looking away on whistle sits, how do you reverse the attitude toward eye contact? You have to make eye contact more important to them than a distraction, and/or overcome what’s bugging (worrying) them.

*Distraction-proofing*

Overcoming the propensity in a dog to allow distractions to degrade obedience, including making & maintaining eye contact on whistle sits, is centered in the same dynamic as all other obedience tasks; motivation. Your dog must come to _want_ eye contact badly enough for distractions to take a back seat to it. 

In the words of the late Hall of Fame trainer, Rex Carr, “What’s in it for the dog?” That is ultimately what will determine what your dog does most; what does he/she perceive as the source of the most immediate reward? As I’ve noted countless times, dogs are situational learners and live in the moment. We’ll deal primarily with living in the moment for this treatment regimen.

Keep in mind that ‘training’ is a 3-phase process; teach, force, reinforce. Lacking any of those ingredients, a dog is merely taught – not trained. Such a dog is subject only to his whims when he’s distracted or bugged. He knows what to do under command. But it’s easy for him to become unstable when distractions exert greater pressure than the urge to comply with commands, and the trainer is left with minimal tools to restore a stable response. 

That is why the overarching theme of formal Basics is pressure conditioning. Through the process of conditioning our dogs to pressure they become more stable, more reliable, more accurate in all tasks, and certainly more motivated to comply under command. If your dog is lacking in the vital foundation provided by sound Basics, problems like we’re discussing here will be exponentially more difficult to find a lasting resolution for.

*Use your tools, and treat problems in the moment*

Because of how dogs learn and retain information, any training problem tends to be more effectively dealt with through a treatment applied “in-the-moment”, and in a way that makes an obvious connection with both the command or performance standard being violated, and the physical elements that are breaking them down. Since we are dealing first with loss of eye contact due to distractions, let’s start with dealing with it in the moment, and in a way that provides a solution that will tend to last.

*Rapid cast & correction treatment*

I use this sometimes for other problems, but mostly for this one. I’ll first lay out a hypothetical situation, apply the treatment, and then explain why it is so effective.

Because it is so obvious that running blinds in association with marks tends to automatically provide distractions, we’ll assume you’re doing that today. You have a triple mark set up with a single blind retrieve between two of them. The distraction, of course, is what is called “suction” provided by the marks on either side of the dog as he runs the route to the blind.










In this example there are several clear reasons for the dog to be distracted while trying to run this blind retrieve between two marks. He will be most apt to make poor eye contact as he is nearest to those old falls. What will his eye contact be like? He may look a good deal like a lawn sprinkler; looking right and left alternately. But he’s sure less likely to keep a laser-like focus on you! But he can if he’s adequately motivated. 

You have your dog pick up these (not so easy) marks, and then send him/her for the blind. One likely occurrence is that he flares slightly off the backside of the first (middle) gun, and is drawn toward the longer right hand fall. You stop him to the whistle to handle him back on line to the blind.

He sits to the whistle, but begins the lawn sprinkler imitation; looking side-to-side, instead of at you. Let the real training begin!

Instead of the usual begging contest to get his attention, today you train him through this. The instant…and I mean INSTANT he looks away; you cast vocally, and make sure he goes. Do not allow a no go here. Don’t obsess over this blind. The dog is far more important than the piece of plastic you’ve planted out there. Stay with this.

It doesn’t matter now if the cast is correct. Even if he took the right cast, you’re going to handle him again and again until he takes in upon himself to keep eye contact with you each time he’s stopped. Let him carry his cast a few yards, and sit him; instantly casting him when he looks away. If he looks at you upon sitting praise him. But wait a bit, and give him time to look away. If your dog is truly chronic about this it won’t take long.

When he looks away, cast him instantly as before, and continue this until you finish what may turn out to be an ugly blind! Who cares? You didn’t come to win a ribbon; you came to train! You’ll soon find that your dog finally wants to know what the heck you want!!! The result? He’ll stare holes through you trying to find out what it is that you really want when you stop him!

Now, remembering this triple was hypothetical, here is what I did consistently with dogs that were sent to me to fix this problem. I found a field that was pretty plain; very few physical features. I set up a row of bumpers as blinds. The idea was not to worry about which one the dog ended up retrieving, but rather so that he would be rewarded following this rapid cast treatment. I would send and deal with poor eye contact as described above. Once the dog was making solid eye contact, I cast the dog and allowed him to carry the cast to a bumper – any bumper. I knew he would find one because I set so many. The row was set perpendicular, right to left, or left to right at equal distance about ten paces apart. A surveyor’s flag marked each spot so I could come back day to day and set it again. The dog never got the same one twice.

What he did do was gain a real desire to want to know what I wanted when I sat him to a whistle. What made it work? He was corrected for errors I knew he was likely to make. Think about this scenario a moment. Dogs doing this will often no-go at first. They’re instantly corrected for that. They will take wrong casts due to being cast so fast. They are also corrected instantly for that. No big nicks; just instant corrections that compel the dog toward a higher conscience. They now have motivation for wanting to know what _I_ want, and end up not only making eye contact, but actually leaning toward me, staring intently. That’s when dogs cast accurately!

*EvanG*


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

thanks Evan, I *think* I get it.
When you say to instantly give him a verbal cast, do you mean I should say, for example "over". Now since he's not looking at me, he has no idea if I want him to go right or left, correct? If he makes the wrong choice, he gets a correction? Even if he makes the right choice, I sit him again quickly, and repeat the process, correct?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> thanks Evan, I *think* I get it.
> When you say to instantly give him a verbal cast, do you mean I should say, for example "over". Now since he's not looking at me, he has no idea if I want him to go right or left, correct? If he makes the wrong choice, he gets a correction?


Yes, and it's likey that he will cast incorrectly because he isn't doing his job of looking for direction.


hotel4dogs said:


> Even if he makes the right choice, I sit him again quickly, and repeat the process, correct?


No, but look for any all opportunities to handle quite a bit, and look for any ligeitimate opportunity to correct. Keep your timing much faster than you usually would. Very rapid fire style.

EvanG


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