# Authority Dog Food



## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Has anyone ever used Authority Dog Food? I was at Petsmart today and saw two people buying it. Looking at the price it is cheaper than ProPlan but I dont know if it is worse or better. I dont know much about dog food but if I an save money and still save some money it would be nice, especially in this economy. Here are the ingredients for the Authority Adult dry Food with chicken

*Ingredients:*

Mini Chunk: Chicken, Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Corn, Oat Groats, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Dried Beet Pulp, Natural Flavor, Canola Oil, Dried Egg Product, Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Vitamin and Mineral Supplements (Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Ascorbic Acid), Copper Sulfate, Vitamin A Supplement, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin, D Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin, Calcium Iodate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamin Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement).
Chunk: Chicken, Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Corn, Oat Groats, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Dried Beet Pulp, Natural Flavor, Canola Oil, Dried Egg Product, Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Vitamin and Mineral Supplements( Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Ascorbic Acid), Copper Sulfate, Vitamin A Supplement, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin, D Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin, Calcium Iodate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamin Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement).
*Guaranteed Analysis:*

Mini Chunk: Crude Protein (min) 26.0%, Crude Fat (min) 14.0%, Crude Fiber (max) 4.0%, Moisture (max) 10.0%, Calcium (min) 1.1%, Phosphorus (min) 1.0%, Zinc (min) 175mg/kg, Selenium (min) 0.15mg/kg, Vitamin A (min) 15,000 IU/kg, Vitamin E (min) 225 IU/kg, Omega-6 Fatty Acids (min) 3.0%*, Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min) .25%*, Vitamin C (min) 20 mg/kg*.
Chunk: Crude Protein (min) 26.0%, Crude Fat (min) 14.0%, Crude Fiber (max) 4.0%, Moisture (max) 10.0%, Calcium (min) 1.1%, Phosphorus (min) 1.0%, Zinc (min) 175mg/kg, Selenium (min) 0.15mg/kg, Vitamin A (min) 15,000 IU/kg, Vitamin E (min) 225 IU/kg, Omega-6 Fatty Acids (min) 3.0%*, Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min) 0.25%*, Vitamin C (min) 20 mg/kg*.
_* Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profile._

*Calorie Content:*

Mini Chunk: 3,730 kcal/kg metabolizable energy (calculated)
Chunk: 3,730 kcal/kg metabolizable energy (calculated)
Here is the Purina Pro Plan Chicken and Rice Adult 
Ingredients
Chicken, poultry meal (natural source of glucosamine), wholegrain wheat, corn gluten meal, wholegrain corn, animal fat, rice, oats, soybean meal, calcium carbonate, ionized salt, potassium chloride, cereal by-product, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, fish meal, zinc sulphate, iron sulphate, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), natural antioxidant, niacin, manganous oxide, copper sulphate, pantothenic mononitrate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride, cobalt carbonate, vitamin B12 supplement, menadione sodium bisulphate complex (source of vitamin K activity), folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, potassium iodide, biotin, natural flavours, whole egg.
Calorie Content
Metabolisable Energy (ME) 4371 kcal/kg or 489 kcal/cup
Feeds Per Bag
54 feeds per 15kg bag*
* Based on approx feed for average size dog weighing 22.5kg

GUARANTEED ANALYSISCrude Protein (Min)26.0%Phosphorous (Min)0.8%Crude Fat (Min)15.0%Vitamin A (Min)15,000 IU/kgMoisture (Max)12.0%Vitamin E (Min)460 IU/kgCrude Ash (Max)7.5%Selenium (Min)0.3 mg/kgCrude Fibre (Max)3.0%Ascorbic Acid* (Min)70 mg/kgSalt (Max)1.0%Glucosamine* (Min)400 ppmLinoleic Acid (Min)1.4%Glutamine


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Those who I know who switched their dogs to Authority had real problems with it, and switched back to their regular foods. Poor coats, excessive, soft stool were the main complaints.


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

is Professional available in your area? Layla has been on it for 18 months & does fantastic. I was wary of it at first, due to the super low price; but it is an outstanding food. http://www.professionalpetfood.com/


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

I haven't tried Authority for my dogs and don't know anyone who has fed it. That said, Authority gets a thumbs up over the Pro Plan in my book for not  including the following ingredients: unnamed "poultry meal", unnamed "animal fat" soybean meal, cereal by-products and menadione.

How well any given dog will do on one product versus the other is anyone's guess. If you're searching for a less expensive kibble than Pro Plan that you feel comfortable trying, consider Healthwise formulas by Natura. They cost about $1 per lb. (less than Pro Plan) and have had a good track record with many dog owners. Check this link to see where it might be sold in your area since Petco and Petsmart don't carry them.
http://www.naturapet.com/where-to-buy/

Healthwise Chicken Meal and Oatmeal Adult
Chicken Meal, Oatmeal, Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a Natural Source of Vitamin E), Pea Fiber, Flaxseed, Natural Flavors, Salt, Herring Oil, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Betaine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Beta Carotene, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Folic Acid), Minerals (Calcium Carbonate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate), Lecithin, Rosemary Extract
Moisture10.00%
Protein25.00%
Fat15.00%
Fiber 3.80%


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## damita (Jun 4, 2009)

MyBentley said:


> I haven't tried Authority for my dogs and don't know anyone who has fed it. That said, Authority gets a thumbs up over the Pro Plan in my book for not including the following ingredients: unnamed "poultry meal", unnamed "animal fat" soybean meal, cereal by-products and menadione.
> 
> How well any given dog will do on one product versus the other is anyone's guess.


What MyBentley said is exactly my thoughts! My biggest ick factor is now knowing what "animal fat" is...


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I wish I could use Professional but the only place that sold it near me just closed. And the only other place is across town. Truly I dont understand why more places dont carry it. It is a good quality and good priced food. 
The same with the Healthwise. Except for getting it at some animal hospitals and it is marked up.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I tried to feed Max the Authority. He hated it, I was transitioning him from Iams so I was mixing it together and every time I went to more than 1/4 Authority and 3/4 Iams, he had very soft poops, almost diarrhea. I finally gave up and went to Nature's Recipe, not quite as high a quality but at least he likes it and no more diarrhea!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

:no: My dogs sure do well on icky junk food. I wouldn't touch Authority, or Healthwise, or any of the other wonderful holistic foods with a ten pole ever again.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> :no: My dogs sure do well on icky junk food. I wouldn't touch Authority, or Healthwise, or any of the other wonderful holistic foods with a ten pole ever again.


Which other Purina product(s) have you tried & would recommend ?
Based on their different brands, how would you describe Nestlé Purina's philosophy ?


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## WLR (May 11, 2008)

Anything that has corn gluten won't be coming through my door.......:no:


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> :no: My dogs sure do well on icky junk food. I wouldn't touch Authority, or Healthwise, or any of the other wonderful holistic foods with a ten pole ever again.


Your statement baffles me. Healthwise is not marketed as a holistic food; and I don't believe Authority is either. The Healthwise brochure says "Healthwise is the affordable alternative to expensive premium brands . . . wholesome ingredients . . . value priced . . quality without compromise"

Also, Authority and Healthwise are very different formulas. I can't begin to think on what basis anyone would lump the two together.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

T&T said:


> Which other Purina product(s) have you tried & would recommend ?
> Based on their different brands, how would you describe Nestlé Purina's philosophy ?


 Purina offers many choices for a variety of budgets and situations. When we were having a hard time financially....Purina dog chow was a great choice during that time period. I would rather go with a lower end Purina product then a generic or unknown cheaper product. 

I trust the brand and don't mind the choices.


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## sifuyono (May 8, 2008)

T&T said:


> Which other Purina product(s) have you tried & would recommend ?
> Based on their different brands, how would you describe Nestlé Purina's philosophy ?


i choose proplan, performance formula.....


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

T&T said:


> Which other Purina product(s) have you tried & would recommend ?
> Based on their different brands, how would you describe Nestlé Purina's philosophy ?


 
Which other Purina product(s) have you tried & would recommend ?

I have fed Purina's Veterinary Diets when the occasion called for it. Of course they are "Prescription Diets" not suitable nor intended for feeding normal healthy dogs. But when the need arrises, those special dedicated diets by Purina are critical to helping a sick dog recover. 

Based on their different brands, how would you describe Nestlé Purina's philosophy ?

Nestle Purina's philosophy is to provide a wide ranging diverse product line that appeals to as broad and far reaching an audience as possible. They have no desire to fill the needs or whims of small obscure nitch markets.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

MyBentley said:


> Your statement baffles me. Healthwise is not marketed as a holistic food; and I don't believe Authority is either. The Healthwise brochure says "Healthwise is the affordable alternative to expensive premium brands . . . wholesome ingredients . . . value priced . . quality without compromise"
> 
> Also, Authority and Healthwise are very different formulas. I can't begin to think on what basis anyone would lump the two together.


 
I wasn't saying that Authority or Healthwise are holisitic, but I was lumping them together with foods that I said I wouldn't touch. I don't care _how _they are marketed


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> I wasn't saying that Authority or Healthwise are holisitic, but I was lumping them together with foods that I said I wouldn't touch. I don't care _how _they are marketed


Thank you for clarifying your earlier statement. I realize you're very satisfied and happy with what you're currently feeding and have no need to consider other formulas. 

I am curious about you saying Healthwise is one of the "foods that I said I wouldn't touch". Did you have a bad experience with it in the past or is there some knowledge about it or something about it on paper that would make you not consider it if you were looking for a change? (which I know you're not).

Natura Pet Products was founded in 1989, is sold in every state in the U.S. and in Canada, and has not been involved in any recalls. Here is an example of one of the Healthwise formulas:

Healthwise Chicken Meal and Oatmeal Adult
Chicken Meal, Oatmeal, Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a Natural Source of Vitamin E), Pea Fiber, Flaxseed, Natural Flavors, Salt, Herring Oil, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Betaine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Beta Carotene, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Folic Acid), Minerals (Calcium Carbonate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate), Lecithin, Rosemary Extract
Moisture 10.00%
Protein 25.00%
Fat 15.00%
Fiber 3.80%

In my area it sells for about $36.50 for a 35 lb. bag.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

I agree with PG.

After first hand experience with several of the foods from Natura Pet Products, I would not ever feed them again or recommend them as a good source of nutrition. The products did not keep up with the nutritional needs of my dogs. The training dogs lost muscle mass and endurance while being fed the products. Nursing mothers were a complete disaster and the condition of growing puppies was sub-par when compared to earlier litters on other products.

Natura may do an outstanding job with marketing materials and selling a philosophy but that's about it. If you throw out all the philosophical marketing jargon and measure only the actual outcome i.e. results delivered, Natura just doesn't measure up. Then when you consider how much more you're paying for an underperforming product you see the light and realize that marketing hype doesn't translate into solid proven results with your dog(s).


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Swampcollie said:


> I agree with PG.
> 
> After first hand experience with several of the foods from Natura Pet Products, I would not ever feed them again or recommend them as a good source of nutrition. The products did not keep up with the nutritional needs of my dogs. The training dogs lost muscle mass and endurance while being fed the products. Nursing mothers were a complete disaster and the condition of growing puppies was sub-par when compared to earlier litters on other products.
> 
> Natura may do an outstanding job with marketing materials and selling a philosophy but that's about it. If you throw out all the philosophical marketing jargon and measure only the actual outcome i.e. results delivered, Natura just doesn't measure up. Then when you consider how much more you're paying for an underperforming product you see the light and realize that marketing hype doesn't translate into solid proven results with your dog(s).


Well, you've lumped a lot of very different formula lines and price points into your overall assessment: EVO grain-free with high protein, fat, calories and price point; Innova with moderate protein and fat and grains, California Natural adult with limited ingredients and rather low protein and fat levels and a more moderate price; to Healthwise which is the most value priced (about $1 per lb.) with moderate protein and fat levels.

As with all brands, not every formulation in their line-up will match well with a particular dog's needs. That's true whether one is talking about Purina, Eukanuba, Natura, Champion Pet Foods or dozens of other companies. Whichever formula you tried didn't work out well for you. But for others it has. I know several hunters whose dogs do great with the EVO. I know others whose dogs have allergies and do great with one of the California Natural formulas; and I know others on a tight budget who appreciate the reasonable price of Healthwise and what they perceive as a quality set of ingredients. And yes, I'm aware of others that for whatever reason (maybe an intolerance to the specific vitamin pre-mix) didn't seem to find a formula that worked for them.

As far as marketing, every company knows it must do it and do it well to stay in the competition. The number of times one can see a TV commercial for Beneful dog food in one evening is considerable. Perhaps Beneful's "hype doesn't translate into solid proven results" with every dog either.

But my original specific questions in an earlier post for Pointgold regarding Healthwise still remain. My focus wasn't to debate companies. Each has varying levels of products.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

MyBentley said:


> Well, you've lumped a lot of very different formula lines and price points into your overall assessment: EVO grain-free with high protein, fat, calories and price point; Innova with moderate protein and fat and grains, California Natural adult with limited ingredients and rather low protein and fat levels and a more moderate price; to Healthwise which is the most value priced (about $1 per lb.) with moderate protein and fat levels.
> 
> As with all brands, not every formulation in their line-up will match well with a particular dog's needs. That's true whether one is talking about Purina, Eukanuba, Natura, Champion Pet Foods or dozens of other companies. Whichever formula you tried didn't work out well for you. But for others it has. I know several hunters whose dogs do great with the EVO. I know others whose dogs have allergies and do great with one of the California Natural formulas; and I know others on a tight budget who appreciate the reasonable price of Healthwise and what they perceive as a quality set of ingredients. And yes, I'm aware of others that for whatever reason (maybe an intolerance to the specific vitamin pre-mix) didn't seem to find a formula that worked for them.
> 
> ...


 
I've never been impressed with any of the Natura products, having seen many dogs in different situations on any number of their formulas. They've not performed up to what I want. And I have seen too much inconsistency within formulas. It is my choice to stick with a brand that I trust, that has consistently delivered excellent results. 

Are you somehow connect with Healthwise?


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

I used Purina pro plan when Mac was a pup; Purina Carvers as treats. I don't find anything wrong with Purina.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

rappwizard said:


> I used Purina pro plan when Mac was a pup; Purina Carvers as treats. I don't find anything wrong with Purina.


If there were something "wrong" with it, it would be highly unlikely that so many of the top dogs in the country, in all venues, would be fed the product. Many long time, top winning handlers use it on all their charges. 

Seriously, just because some very biased web site has not given a food X number of stars, I'm not going to wring my hands over it and look for something different. I KNOW that it has been an excellent food for my dogs, and long term results (I'm talking _years_) have been beyond satisfactory.


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## sifuyono (May 8, 2008)

after being battle hard with acana, finally i gave up with stool problem on this food

back again to pro plan performance..... i absolutely like the stool quality on this food.

still mix it with acana food right now, but i hope finished switching in 1 week


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

There's a pretty clear case of philosophy vs. real-world experience in this thread.

There's some unscientific prejudice against certain ingredients in people's philosophy, and no matter how many dogs thrive on those foods, that prejudice assures that people will look down on those foods.

The whole voodoo about reading ingredient lists gets very tiresome to me because people treat it like gospel when it really doesn't tell you much for sure. Add to that some completely unreasonable biases against particular ingredient names (god forbid anything have corn in it instead of brown rice!), and you have a great niche for manufacturers to fill with expensive foods.

An experienced handler said she's seen a bunch of dogs who've not done well on Authority and knows lots of dogs who do well on Purina. Isn't that a stronger statement about the quality of the food than some inferences you can draw from an ingredient list?


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Every dog is different, I have 2 that did great on Proplan and 2 that didnt, so as you see not all dogs are the same. I do have them on a grainless because of Cruiser's ears and by doing so his ears are much better. I dont want to feed my dogs different food than the others so I put them all on the same food and they have done well. I always say feed what is best for your dogs and not what other feed.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I should say, in the interest of full disclosure, that I do not feed Purina to my dogs. They're on Eukanuba Premium Performance, another food with the dreaded corn and chicken by-products in it.

They're muscular, glossy, and very healthy, despite all the poison I appear to be giving them.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> I've never been impressed with any of the Natura products, having seen many dogs in different situations on any number of their formulas. They've not performed up to what I want. And I have seen too much inconsistency within formulas. It is my choice to stick with a brand that I trust, that has consistently delivered excellent results.
> 
> Are you somehow connect with Healthwise?


No, not connected with Healthwise, Natura or any other pet food company. The OP was looking for reasonably-priced options to Purina Pro Plan and Healthwise happens to be one I'm familiar with. I know a number of people who feed it successfully.

I could also have suggested Canidae, Eagle Pack, Fromms, Eukanuba and a host of other companies that make dog food without using unnamed "animal fat" (your guess in any particular bag), unspecific "poultry by-product" (which animal?) or menadione (which numerous studies have linked to cancer).

There are many decent companies making good solid foods with many satisfied customers. The fact that they don't share Purina's perspective shouldn't automatically make them suspect.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

MyBentley said:


> mendione (which numerous studies have linked to cancer).


Do you mean menadione? If so, can you link any of those studies? As far as I can tell, it's vitamin K.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione

Everything that the (biased) Dog Food Project wants you to know about menadione (approved for use by the AAFCO).

I'm not seeing my dogs (who enjoy excellent longevity - not just old but _healthy _old) ravaged by cancers caused by all the horrific ingredients that these web sites say are in the Pro Plan I have fed for well over 15 years. (and Iams and Eukanuba prior to that).

Like Mary said, feed what your pets do the best on. Mine, obviously, thrive on "junk".


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione
> 
> Everything that the (biased) Dog Food Project wants you to know about menadione (approved for use by the AAFCO).


Hmm...and this person had to go searching for evidence in mysterious non-English sources in order to even make as strong a point as he or she did, and still no claims of studies that actually link it to cancer.

So what we have is a vitamin K supplement that's not as good as natural K1 and is toxic in exceedingly high doses? Hm...


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Deleting because I think I was incorrect.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> I kinda looked into this in the past and I think there was a problem with horses when it was injected. Apparently it is not water soluable and can be toxic if too much is given. The natural sources of Vitamin K are water soluable but unstable. So....you can't over-load the synthesized Vit K.
> I think that is with any thing...if I'm not mistaken you can over-dose on Vitamin A.
> 
> That is what I remember...its been a while


There are lots of substances that are essentially harmless in small quantities but cause organ damage in massive quantities. Water's one of 'em.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Well this has been an interesting discussion. I have to say that I have been feeding the ProPlan for almost 2 years and they have been doing really well but with the hubby being out of work for a year and the debts building higher and higher, I am just trying to find a way to help save alittle each month. He is now working but it is a big catchup for awhile. 
Having said that, I did buy a small bag of the Authority and they have been doing really well on it mixed in with the ProPlan. No diarrhea with it and their energy has been great, no ear issues or itching. Some people may think the food is junk but for awhile they may be on this unless something happens with them, then I will just bite the bullet and go back to the ProPlan. In looking at the ingredients, I couldnt find alot of difference between the two foods and wanted to ask some others on what they thought of the food. Thanks for the feedback.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Do you mean menadione? If so, can you link any of those studies? As far as I can tell, it's vitamin K.


Menadione is one of three synthetic forms of vitamin K. There is enough concern about its long-term use that some European countries have banned its use in human foods and supplements.

Although I don't keep an ongoing list of every source I've ever read about a whole host of subjects, I did find a note I'd kept referencing a study on rats and menadione and resulting organ lesions: Chiou et al. Toxicology 1997

To my knowledge, there have been no long-term studies on dogs and menadione to date. It appears to be one of those substances, like ethoxyquin, that have sent up enough red flags for its use to be banned or severely restricted for human consumption. Since definitive results are still out, it makes it a pretty easy choice for me to avoid it for myself and my dogs. There are plenty of dog foods, if not most, on the market without it.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

MyBentley said:


> Although I don't keep an ongoing list of every source I've ever read about a whole host of subjects, I did find a note I'd kept referencing a study on rats and menadione and resulting organ lesions: Chiou et al. Toxicology 1997


In that study, the rats were injected with MASSIVE amounts of this substance. The minimum dose was 25mg/kg. A relative amount of salt consumed by a human would well exceed the US RDA, and the max dose of 150 mg/kg would actually kill a rat if it were salt.

The study's conclusion was that "the acute toxicity of menadione is more severe than the cumulative toxicity of menadione," and that's it. Nothing about long term effects, nothing about cancer.

I found plenty of studies that showed it to be less effective than K1 in helping clotting, but no clear signs that it was actually dangerous in a significant way.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> In that study, the rats were injected with MASSIVE amounts of this substance. The minimum dose was 25mg/kg. A relative amount of salt consumed by a human would well exceed the US RDA, and the max dose of 150 mg/kg would actually kill a rat if it were salt.
> 
> The study's conclusion was that "the acute toxicity of menadione is more severe than the cumulative toxicity of menadione," and that's it. Nothing about long term effects, nothing about cancer.
> 
> I found plenty of studies that showed it to be less effective than K1 in helping clotting, but no clear signs that it was actually dangerous in a significant way.


I can't really say much more than what I did in my previous in response to your question. Some people will have a comfort level with the ingredient as you seem to. Others of us believe avoiding this ingredient that is so much in question is erring on the side of protecting our dogs' health.

As I said in my previous post:

_Menadione is one of three synthetic forms of vitamin K. There is enough concern about its long-term use that some European countries have banned its use in human foods and supplements.

To my knowledge, there have been no long-term studies on dogs and menadione to date. It appears to be one of those substances, like ethoxyquin, that have sent up enough red flags for its use to be banned or severely restricted for human consumption. Since definitive results are still out, it makes it a pretty easy choice for me to avoid it for myself and my dogs. There are plenty of dog foods, if not most, on the market without it._


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

My "long term studies" (feeding Pro Plan for well over 15 years, and as I said, Iams and Euk prior to that) and having exceptionally healthy, very long lived dogs are proof enough for me.

I am completely unconvinced by anything touted by these biased sites such as the Dog Food Project and the likes.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Carol, I am coming in to this at the end (sorry, didn't read thru the rest of the thread so apologies if I say something that's already been said) but our Purina rep., who I know pretty well on a personal level, says that if you are looking for a less expensive alternative to Pro Plan the Purina One is an excellent choice. It's not all that different from the Pro Plan, all things being relative.




BeauShel said:


> Well this has been an interesting discussion. I have to say that I have been feeding the ProPlan for almost 2 years and they have been doing really well but with the hubby being out of work for a year and the debts building higher and higher, I am just trying to find a way to help save alittle each month. He is now working but it is a big catchup for awhile.
> Having said that, I did buy a small bag of the Authority and they have been doing really well on it mixed in with the ProPlan. No diarrhea with it and their energy has been great, no ear issues or itching. Some people may think the food is junk but for awhile they may be on this unless something happens with them, then I will just bite the bullet and go back to the ProPlan. In looking at the ingredients, I couldnt find alot of difference between the two foods and wanted to ask some others on what they thought of the food. Thanks for the feedback.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

back to your original question Carol...
Do you have a Farm and Fleet, Fleet Farm, Tractor Supply or something similar in your area?
At our Farm and Fleet, they sell Pro Plan for $7 to $8 a bag less than our Petco charges. Petco and Petsmart will both match competitors' prices, so I just tell them what Farm and Fleet charges, they call to verify, and then they give me the lower price. 
On top of that, after 10 bags at Petco your 11th one is free.
All in all, not a bad deal.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> My "long term studies" (feeding Pro Plan for well over 15 years, and as I said, Iams and Euk prior to that) and having exceptionally healthy, very long lived dogs are proof enough for me.
> 
> I am completely unconvinced by anything touted by these biased sites such as the Dog Food Project and the likes.


Seriously. Studies that aren't about dogs and use levels of a substance that are far higher than any real-world application are somehow more authoritative than feeding studies? I just don't get the mentality.


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## msdogs1976 (Dec 21, 2007)

BeauShel said:


> Well this has been an interesting discussion. I have to say that I have been feeding the ProPlan for almost 2 years and they have been doing really well but with the hubby being out of work for a year and the debts building higher and higher, I am just trying to find a way to help save alittle each month. He is now working but it is a big catchup for awhile.
> Having said that, I did buy a small bag of the Authority and they have been doing really well on it mixed in with the ProPlan. No diarrhea with it and their energy has been great, no ear issues or itching. * Some people may think the food is junk *but for awhile they may be on this unless something happens with them, then I will just bite the bullet and go back to the ProPlan. In looking at the ingredients, I couldnt find alot of difference between the two foods and wanted to ask some others on what they thought of the food. Thanks for the feedback.


Don't worry about what others think. You did your research and are comfortable with the ingredients so go for it. Seems like a sensible plan to me. You may find your dogs do just as well and decide to stay on it.

I hope it works well for you.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

BeauShel said:


> Well this has been an interesting discussion. I have to say that I have been feeding the ProPlan for almost 2 years and they have been doing really well but with the hubby being out of work for a year and the debts building higher and higher, I am just trying to find a way to help save alittle each month. He is now working but it is a big catchup for awhile.
> Having said that, I did buy a small bag of the Authority and they have been doing really well on it mixed in with the ProPlan. No diarrhea with it and their energy has been great, no ear issues or itching. Some people may think the food is junk but for awhile they may be on this unless something happens with them, then I will just bite the bullet and go back to the ProPlan. In looking at the ingredients, I couldnt find alot of difference between the two foods and wanted to ask some others on what they thought of the food. Thanks for the feedback.


Glad to hear your initial transitioning to Authority is going well. As I said in my first post (#4), I'd choose it myself over what you were feeding, but for reasons other than financial. Hopefully you'll feel fine about the change also.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

In reply to the above discussions ...
Personally, I CANNOT trust ANY company that claims "healthy diets" while using carcinogenic ingredients. 
Minimal dose you say ? 
Not in a dog's lifetime. 
Yes, FDA approved ... 
And which the cancer society is doing nothing about. 
So no, I no longer donate, until a much bigger chunk of the billions $ collected go towards prevention and not all towards damage control.

Here are the top 10 global pet food players !
( Not to worry ... Holistics are not at the top ... ) 
http://www.petfoodindustry.com/Top10extras.aspx

And here is just one of too many links on how well our pets are doing in the "real world" 
http://www.acfoundation.org/faq/faq.php

Scientists used to claim diseases were 75% genetic 25% nutrition/environmental
They have since reversed those numbers ...
And many doctors will agree, although some may only do so behind closed doors.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

T&T said:


> In reply to the above discussions ...
> Personally, I CANNOT trust ANY company that claims "healthy diets" while using carcinogenic ingredients.
> Minimal dose you say ?
> Not in a dog's lifetime.
> ...


Thank you for the link to the Animal Cancer Foundation. I was not aware of it. We lost our Aussie at age 7 a few years ago to lymphoma. Since then, I've paid much more attention with my other dogs regarding vaccination protocol, nutrition, and products I use in my environment. There is never one clear answer. To me, it's all about stacking the deck in your dogs' favor in multiple areas, knowing you've done what you can, and then sit back (or run out the door) and enjoy your dogs.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

T&T said:


> In reply to the above discussions ...
> Personally, I CANNOT trust ANY company that claims "healthy diets" while using carcinogenic ingredients. \


Is that comment in reference to menadione? A substance that even in the most hysterical links posted in this thread has never been linked to cancer?


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Is that comment in reference to menadione? A substance that even in the most hysterical links posted in this thread has never been linked to cancer?


It's probably short-sighted of us all to limit the discussion of menadione solely to potential cancer links.

There are on-going studies being funded (including at the human level) regarding menadione and DNA damage. It doesn't take much searching to ferret out multiple sites showing scientific research on the subject. One example: http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/10715769709097790
I don't believe this could be referred to as a "hysterical" link.

No one study provides definitive answers. The fact that multiple studies are being funded in a variety of venues does indicate concern in the scientific community. That fact alone is enough for me to choose among dozens of dog foods that do not contain menadione. Others may feel differently. Some pet food companies used to include menadione, but no longer do - Eukanuba being one of them.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

MyBentley said:


> There are on-going studies being funded (including at the human level) regarding menadione and DNA damage. It doesn't take much searching to ferret out multiple sites showing scientific research on the subject. One example: http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/10715769709097790
> I don't believe this could be referred to as a "hysterical" link.


Neither hysterical nor particularly relevant to the discussion of dietary menadione. Again, just because a study found damaged nuclei or DNA strand breaks doesn't mean a compound is dangerous in dietary usage. As I pointed out previously, NaCl is quite dangerous in the wrong place in the body or a cell or in the wrong concentration, yet it's necessary for life and nobody would say dog food should be free of it.



MyBentley said:


> No one study provides definitive answers. The fact that multiple studies are being funded in a variety of venues does indicate concern in the scientific community. That fact alone is enough for me to choose among dozens of dog foods that do not contain menadione. Others may feel differently. Some pet food companies used to include menadione, but no longer do - Eukanuba being one of them.


I find it odd that I'm defending a substance that's not added to the food I feel my dogs, but I do find it necessary to point out that the fact that a number of studies exist does not indicate any actual concern among scientists, but rather curiosity. Any vitamin additive is subjected to all kinds of small studies about the different consequences it might have in different body systems.

A lot of the food arguments here are caused by the fact that non-scientists try to get into scientific literature, which is great, but has the side consequences of uproars occasionally getting created where none needs to be. The media is constantly doing this—taking one study or one series of studies and drawing conclusions that no real scientist would. Most studies are extremely limited in scope and extremely careful about what conclusions they draw.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Neither hysterical nor particularly relevant to the discussion of dietary menadione. Again, just because a study found damaged nuclei or DNA strand breaks doesn't mean a compound is dangerous in dietary usage. As I pointed out previously, NaCl is quite dangerous in the wrong place in the body or a cell or in the wrong concentration, *yet it's necessary for life* and nobody would say dog food should be free of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe you are confusing naturally occurring Vitamin K1 and Vitamin K2 with the synthetic man-made form known as K3 (menadione).

Please reference this link from the Oregon State University from which I've included a small portion: http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminK/

_Toxicity

Although allergic reaction is possible, there is no known toxicity associated with high doses of the phylloquinone (vitamin K1) or menaquinone (vitamin K2) forms of vitamin K (22). *The same is not true for synthetic menadione (vitamin K3) and its derivatives. Menadione can interfere with the function of glutathione, one of the body's natural antioxidants, resulting in oxidative damage to cell membranes.* Menadione given by injection has induced liver toxicity, jaundice, and hemolytic anemia (due to the rupture of red blood cells) *in infants; therefore, menadione is no longer used for treatment of vitamin K deficiency* (6, 8). No tolerable upper level (UL) of intake has been established for vitamin K (22)._

Once again, while the studies are human-based, I don't choose to daily feed my dogs a man-made substance that is in question when there are so many other food choices available.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I need to immediately go check to see if my poor dogs are dying from toxicity. I mean, after all of these years being exposed to all this stuff you'd think that I'd have deformed puppies and cancers at an early age (I'm not having cancer at all, but if they lived longer than our 14 year average I'd surely start seeing it...)

Sorry, but this stuff drives me nuts. (Short trip, I know...).


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

MyBentley said:


> I believe you are confusing naturally occurring Vitamin K1 and Vitamin K2 with the synthetic man-made form known as K3 (menadione).


My "necessary for life" comment was clearly in reference to salt. Also, it is inaccurate to say Vitamins K1 and K2 are "naturally occurring," since they have synthetic forms. K3 does typically refer to a synthetic compound as well, though there are several compounds that can be called menadione.



MyBentley said:


> Please reference this link from the Oregon State University from which I've included a small portion: http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminK/
> 
> _Toxicity
> 
> ...


So, as with many substances, if you inject large amounts, it causes damage. This still tells us nothing about the small amounts that are found in some dog food. Many healthy, necessary compounds are useful and healthy in certain amounts and dangerous in huge amounts. You've not yet given anybody any reason to think that the amount of this substance added to dog food causes any harm. Quite the contrary: it seems to have a small positive effect on coagulation (not as good as K1, but still good).

Yes, there is no damaging dose of K1. Yes, it's a superior additive. That doesn't tell us that K3 is bad.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> My "necessary for life" comment was clearly in reference to salt. Also, *it is inaccurate to say Vitamins K1 and K2 are "naturally occurring,"* since they have synthetic forms. K3 does typically refer to a synthetic compound as well, though there are several compounds that can be called menadione.
> 
> 
> So, as with many substances, if you inject large amounts, it causes damage. This still tells us nothing about the small amounts that are found in some dog food. Many healthy, necessary compounds are useful and healthy in certain amounts and dangerous in huge amounts. You've not yet given anybody any reason to think that the amount of this substance added to dog food causes any harm. Quite the contrary: it seems to have a small positive effect on coagulation (not as good as K1, but still good).
> ...


In response to your words I've bolded is information from the American Cancer Society: http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Vitamin_K.asp

_Vitamin K is an essential nutrient that is needed by the liver in order to form proteins that promote blood clotting and prevent abnormal bleeding. *There are 3 forms of vitamin K: K1, K2, and K3. Vitamin K1 (phylloquinone or phytonadione) is a natural nutrient found in green leafy vegetables, such as lettuce, cabbage, collard greens, broccoli, and turnip greens. Some oils, such as soybean oil and canola oil, contain vitamin K. It is also found in beans, olives, cereals, dairy products, some fruits, liver, and pork. Cooking does not remove the vitamin. Vitamin K2 (menaquinone) is a natural product of bacteria that reside in the lower intestinal tract. *Vitamin K3 (menadione) is a potent synthetic (manmade) form of vitamin K. 

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) does not allow menadione (vitamin K3) to be sold as a dietary supplement for humans, although it is allowed in some feeds for farm animals. _

As far as the remainder of your post, I feel a little bit like I'm dealing with someone who still insisted the world was flat even after Columbus' voyages.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

may I respectfully ask that posts not addressing Carol's original question be diverted to a different thread, rather than arguing your points here?
Thank you.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

MyBentley said:


> In response to your words I've bolded is information from the American Cancer Society: http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Vitamin_K.asp
> 
> _Vitamin K is an essential nutrient that is needed by the liver in order to form proteins that promote blood clotting and prevent abnormal bleeding. *There are 3 forms of vitamin K: K1, K2, and K3. Vitamin K1 (phylloquinone or phytonadione) is a natural nutrient found in green leafy vegetables, such as lettuce, cabbage, collard greens, broccoli, and turnip greens. Some oils, such as soybean oil and canola oil, contain vitamin K. It is also found in beans, olives, cereals, dairy products, some fruits, liver, and pork. Cooking does not remove the vitamin. Vitamin K2 (menaquinone) is a natural product of bacteria that reside in the lower intestinal tract. *Vitamin K3 (menadione) is a potent synthetic (manmade) form of vitamin K.
> 
> ...


There are synthetic varieties of K1 available: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17158229. It is naturally occurring, but it can also be synthesized. 

And, if we're being honest and you're insulting me by calling me a moron, then let me be honest and say that I feel a bit like I'm dealing with somebody who does not grasp how the scientific process actually works nor the basic logic required to understand that a substance can be harmful at extreme levels and still be entirely harmless and even beneficial in smaller doses. Vitamin A toxicity is an excellent example of this principle.

While I'm being so fully honest, let me continue. I believe that the advice you give to avoid particular ingredients because of unreasonable panic may actually harm the people and dogs you advise. By panicking over things that are probably harmless and shunning well-tested foods, you prioritize rumor and insinuation over verifiable data. You perpetuate the myths that allow boutique dog food manufacturers to charge high prices for foods which may not only lack proven benefits but may actually be inferior in the nutrition they provide. All they have to do is comply with a small handful of prejudices and they can charge well-meaning people a lot more.

The fact remains that, despite extensive testing, there is no proof whatsoever that this chemical his harmful to dogs. You're welcome to avoid it, but that's not what you're doing here. You're telling other people to avoid it to, and you're saying we should let that fear drive our decisions about the food we give our dogs. Furthermore, your support for the idea that this chemical causes cancer is particularly egregious, since there is no evidence whatsoever, and tactics like yours make people feel guilty and horrible when their dogs do get cancer, as if they could have prevented it by following your advice. It's cruel.

Now you're going to add being insulting on top of that, simply because I routinely point out that your ultimate logic rests on the idea that if you give a dog enough menadione, you might hurt him, and therefore any is too much. That is a false syllogism, no matter how you spin it. Let me be clear that I'm not saying menadione is a good chemical, but rather that you do not have evidence for the claims you are making, and your so-confident claims have unintended consequences.

If you're going to be polite, I can be patient. If you're going to be rude, then I don't feel so bad being a bit blunter.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> may I respectfully ask that posts not addressing Carol's original question be diverted to a different thread, rather than arguing your points here?
> Thank you.


An excellent idea, since the tenor of this thread has become insulting. I'll volunteer not to continue to discuss matters not relevant to Carol's question.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Carol - I would also suggest that since your dogs have done will on the Pro Plan formulas, that you might consider trying Purina One. I know a lot of folks who, due to finances, have had to choose a more economical food, and they've been very happy with One.It is available at most large grocery stores now, too.

And I'm sorry for going off topic, but the entire premise of buying into very biased websites evaluations and ratings of foods frustrates me no end when the foods they claim are bad have performed so well for SO many for SO many years.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

tippykayak,

With all due respect ... how is it that YOU can go ON and ON and ON preaching about what you feed but others cannot share their views or post links they've drawn their conclusions from, without being referred to as a threat to mankind & dogkind ? 






hotel4dogs said:


> may I respectfully ask that posts not addressing Carol's original question be *diverted to a different* *thread*, rather than arguing your points here?
> Thank you.


DONE  http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?p=1050073#post1050073


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## meeko3198 (Feb 2, 2010)

*Authority*

As a PetSmart associate I can tell you that the Authority food is actually PetSmart's store brand sub-premium food. When you look at the pet stores they usually have 3-4 different levels of food. In my 9 years experience working in the pet industry I would say that there is no one best food for all dogs. Each dog is different and it is important to know about how to look at dog food to make good choices. 

Your lower level foods include: Pedigree, Purina Dog Chow, Ol' Roy, etc. These are classified as lower level grocery foods as you can usually find them on the shelves at your local grocery store.

The next level up is Sub-Premium which include: Iams, Authority, Benful, and Nutro Max. These are better quality nutrition than your grocery foods but still not the best.

Premium foods include: Nutro Natural Choice, Pro Plan, Eukanuba, Royal Canin, Nature's Recipe, Biljac, Science Diet, etc. These are foods that are tested and designed to be very good for your dog in terms of nutrition. Some foods, like Pro Plan and Eukanuba have recently added Probiotics to help with brain and immune activity. 

Super-Premium foods include: Blue Buffalo, and Nutro Ultra. These are classified as Holistic foods. Currently there is a debate if they should be seperated into another category as some of these diets can equate to similar nutrition as the premium levels. 

So in all, the best thing to do is look for quality versus price that you can pay. If price is more of an option look for sub-premium over grocery. My biggest suggestion that I always tell my dog training students is to look at the price per ounce. Recently you could purchase the Nature's Recipe large breed puppy for 6.4 cents per ounce, which was the same as the Pedigree price per ounce. It was a larger bag, but was the same overall.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

excellent post, thank you.





meeko3198 said:


> As a PetSmart associate I can tell you that the Authority food is actually PetSmart's store brand sub-premium food. When you look at the pet stores they usually have 3-4 different levels of food. In my 9 years experience working in the pet industry I would say that there is no one best food for all dogs. Each dog is different and it is important to know about how to look at dog food to make good choices.
> 
> Your lower level foods include: Pedigree, Purina Dog Chow, Ol' Roy, etc. These are classified as lower level grocery foods as you can usually find them on the shelves at your local grocery store.
> 
> ...


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