# Questions about raw?



## sam34 (9 mo ago)

We have never used any. Quality kibble and milk bones only. Previous dogs lived to 14, 14, 15 and 12. They all lived a healthy life and none ever had any weight issues (ie, not overweight), or dental issues. I honestly don't know why people need to reinvent the wheel with some of these diets. The common issue I've seen with unhealthy and overweight dogs is their owner's insistence that the dog needs variety and it needs to eat like a person with scraps, etc.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

sam34 said:


> I honestly don't know why people need to reinvent the wheel with some of these diets.


Maybe because it gives them a warm fuzzy feeling?
My dogs get PPP 30/20 and a few milk bones, They eat to live rather than living to eat.
I strive to make their lives the very best that a Retriever can have.


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## Oceanside (Mar 29, 2021)

sam34 said:


> I honestly don't know why people need to reinvent the wheel with some of these diets.


Considering that dogs have eaten raw (whole prey) since the beginning of their existence, and kibble has only been around for 80 or so years, kibble is really the diet that is “reinventing the wheel”.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Oceanside said:


> kibble has only been around for 80 or so years


About the same as penicillin


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

You can certainly enhance your dog’s diet by the addition of some fresh/unprocessed foods. The Dog Aware site is a great resource for suggestions on what you can add (Google to find the site, and then go to the Diet tab and click on Commercial Foods and look for the link for “Adding Fresh food to a kibble diet”).

Here‘s another good article to get you started: 5 Steps to Enhancing Your Dog's Store-Bought Dog Food - Whole Dog Journal


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## sam34 (9 mo ago)

Oceanside said:


> Considering that dogs have eaten raw (whole prey) since the beginning of their existence, and kibble has only been around for 80 or so years, kibble is really the diet that is “reinventing the wheel”.


True. Personally, I've traded in my stone tools and learned I really like craft beer, though. The hunter gatherer existence was taking up too much of my brewery time.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

pawsnpaca said:


> You can certainly enhance your dog’s diet by the addition of some fresh/unprocessed foods. The Dog Aware site is a great resource for suggestions on what you can add (Google to find the site, and then go to the Diet tab and look for the link for “Adding Fresh food to a kibble diet”).
> 
> Here‘s another good article to get you started: 5 Steps to Enhancing Your Dog's Store-Bought Dog Food - Whole Dog Journal


The authors credentials are woefully lacking.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

SRW said:


> The authors credentials are woefully lacking.


You are entitled to your opinion of course, but I disagree. The author may not be a “board certified nutritionist” but she does her research and is highly respected for her knowledge about dog nutrition and other health issues (areas that she has been researching and writing about for many years). Both her website and the Whole Dog Journal have been primary resources for me for years and I‘ve rarely, if ever, found their information to be anything other than sound, balanced, and science-based.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

pawsnpaca said:


> she does her research and is highly respected for her knowledge about dog nutrition and other health issues


By who? She once attended a seminar about wolves and pondered feeding her dog a deer carcass. Now she likes to feed her dogs chicken, vegetables and yogurt and write about it.


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## Oceanside (Mar 29, 2021)

DogParentofOne said:


> Hey! Currently, feeding raw isn’t something I’d be able to do (for several reasons) but I really want to be able to enhance Percy’s food to make it as healthy as possible. From what I’ve read, doing half cooked/raw and half kibble isn’t beneficial, so how about just doing homemade meal toppers? Do they really make that much of a difference? If so, what differences did you notice in your pup? What meal toppers do you add?


To actually answer your question this time around… Nutrition is a very deep topic and definitely not one-size-fits-all. To answer your question in a meaningful way, I’d want to know the reasons you aren’t able to do fully raw since it sounds like you are interested in partially raw. There are many ways to feed and each individual needs to find what works for them and their dog. For many, it is better to just feed kibble than to do raw poorly, but for those with the knowledge to do raw well or those who would purchase a commercial raw, there can definitely be upside IMO. 

As for meal toppers, I’d want to make sure they are reasonably balanced unless they’re less than 10% of the diet. As far as half raw and half kibble not being beneficial, by that logic, meal toppers would be useless. The general consensus amongst nutritionists who advocate for raw meal toppers seems to be that 20% or more of the diet should be raw to make it worthwhile.

My personal (anecdotal) experience with raw feeding (I switched from 100% kibble to 100% raw about 11 years ago) is the following: spotless teeth, smaller/firmer stool, increased energy, better coat, no hotspots, reduced/no itching, reduced/no allergies. My first golden started off on kibble and had lots of hotspots, allergies, and tons of itching at a young age. Switched to raw and never had another hotspot, allergies and itching substantially reduced. Every vet visit, my vet would ask me how I kept her teeth so clean — as a senior her teeth looked like 1 year old teeth, bright white and nothing on them ever. So now I feed raw starting from puppyhood. I can only tell you what I have observed and cannot guarantee the same for you, but I know I’m not the only one.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Oceanside said:


> My personal (anecdotal) experience with raw feeding (I switched from 100% kibble to 100% raw about 11 years ago) is the following: spotless teeth, smaller/firmer stool, increased energy, better coat, no hotspots, reduced/no itching, reduced/no allergies. My first golden started off on kibble and started getting lots of hotspots, allergies, and tons of itching at a young age. Switched to raw and never had another hotspot, allergies and itching substantially reduced. Every vet visit, my vet would ask me how I kept her teeth so clean — as a senior her teeth looked like puppy teeth, bright white and nothing on them ever. So now I feed raw starting from puppyhood. I can only tell you what I have observed and cannot guarantee the same for you, but I know I’m not the only one.


How many dogs in your sample?


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## Oceanside (Mar 29, 2021)

2 dogs so far for me, which is why I said anecdotal experience and observations.


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## DogParentofOne (10 mo ago)

hey! So thanks!
The reasons I’m wanting to switch to something healthy (for those questioning raw) is because kibble is HIGHLY processed. Even though I buy one of the healthiest brands, it still lacks actual proteins, vitamins, and all that such. The majority of kibble loses its vitamins, proteins, minerals, and what not during the cooking process because of the high heats and their methods. I’m fine feeding him what he’s on, but I’d honestly really like to create something healthier if it’s possible.

As for why I can’t feed raw - It’s currently not something I can really afford and Percy is such a licky dogs, especially towards faces, so I’m just concerned about that bit. I’ve heard a lot about dogs shouldn’t be licking you if they are on raw due to salmonella potentials.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

DogParentofOne said:


> Even though I buy one of the healthiest brands, it still lacks actual proteins, vitamins, and all that such.


Switch brands if that is the case. My dogs get PPP 30/20, just like about 90% of all field trial retrievers. It is contains all the proteins, vitamins and such that dogs need. 
Training for and competing in field trials places huge physical demands on a retriever, and they love it. Anything lacking in their diets will be readily apparent.


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## Pytheis (Mar 17, 2016)

DogParentofOne said:


> hey! So thanks!
> The reasons I’m wanting to switch to something healthy (for those questioning raw) is because kibble is HIGHLY processed. Even though I buy one of the healthiest brands, it still lacks actual proteins, vitamins, and all that such. The majority of kibble loses its vitamins, proteins, minerals, and what not during the cooking process because of the high heats and their methods. I’m fine feeding him what he’s on, but I’d honestly really like to create something healthier if it’s possible.
> 
> As for why I can’t feed raw - It’s currently not something I can really afford and Percy is such a licky dogs, especially towards faces, so I’m just concerned about that bit. *I’ve heard a lot about dogs shouldn’t be licking you if they are on raw due to salmonella potentials.*


Just so you’re aware, dogs can and do get salmonella from kibble as well. I know four dogs personally that have gotten salmonella - all of them eat exclusively kibble. I don’t know anyone that has a raw fed dog who has gotten it, but that isn’t me saying that they don’t. I simply wanted to point out that kibble isn’t safer in that regard. I would use caution with your dog licking you immediately after eating regardless of what he’s eaten, or don’t. Sometimes I think we worry far too much.


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## sam34 (9 mo ago)

I know where a dog tongue goes, and the afterlick from a meal would be the least of my concerns  

I doubt that salmonella is much of a concern with commercial dog foods. More in the news has been the recalls due to aflotoxin contamination. That is incredibly lethal to dogs, but the instances are very rare. You can only take your chances and feed what you feel is best. As mentioned, Purina Pro Plan should have everything your dog needs. It has a huge following, as does Victor Professional, the one we use. The problem is there are too many commercial dog food choices, and they advertise to people's feelings when they humanize their dogs, and cater to every current craze that's out there.


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## iPappy (Nov 30, 2021)

DogParentofOne said:


> Hey! Currently, feeding raw isn’t something I’d be able to do (for several reasons) but I really want to be able to enhance Percy’s food to make it as healthy as possible. From what I’ve read, doing half cooked/raw and half kibble isn’t beneficial, so how about just doing homemade meal toppers? Do they really make that much of a difference? If so, what differences did you notice in your pup? What meal toppers do you add?


DogAware.com: Adding Fresh Foods to Commercial Dog Food Some ideas for you to look through.

Not to be a buzzkill or anything, but my senior dog was diagnosed with an aggressive, malignant cancer on Monday, one day after his 13th birthday. I did "everything right" by the standards of some, and that included feeding a raw diet or fresh foods. I even went so far as to grow my own organic veg and sourced some meats that were all given organic feed and finished on grass/pasture. Still, my beautiful boy has cancer. I still believe a good diet can bring them up to their genetic potential but it can't fix what's bound to break. IOW, if you want to add extras here or there I say go for it, but don't feel like a bad owner if you don't, or can't feed raw right now.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

sam34 said:


> I know where a dog tongue goes, and the afterlick from a meal would be the least of my concerns


 🤮


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

I feed raw. I don't expect everyone to. It takes knowledge and research and I'd rather see a dog eat kibble than an unbalanced raw or fresh food diet. That being said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with fresh food additions to kibble. If a doctor told us, as humans, to eat this prepackaged food every day for the rest of our lives, we'd be horrified. I don't know why it has to be so different for dogs. My dogs love food. They live to eat. There's nothing wrong with that. It makes me immensely happy to see how excited they get at meal times. Their bowl is always changing. Combining a good diet with minimal vaccines and a life that as close to toxin free as I can possibly make it, I have a house full of dogs that do not have allergy issues, skin issues, gut issues, etc. Currently, only one of mine has been raw fed her entire life, from the day she was weaned, and I'm very interested to see how that affects her life compared to the rest who spent a good portion of their life eating kibble, being vaccinated, and living in a home that used commercial cleaning products, air fresheners, etc.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Taz Monkey said:


> If a doctor told us, as humans, to eat this prepackaged food every day for the rest of our lives, we'd be horrified.


Imagine what that would do for the obesity problem.


Taz Monkey said:


> My dogs love food. They live to eat


Imagine if a doctor told us all we could do was eat.


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

SRW said:


> Imagine what that would do for the obesity problem.
> 
> Imagine if a doctor told us all we could do was eat.


The obesity problem stems from a whole number of things, but won't be cured by eating prepackaged foods. I mean, it could, but I've never seen a healthy person who eats nothing but processed foods.
I have no idea what you mean by the second comment.


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## DogParentofOne (10 mo ago)

SRW said:


> Imagine what that would do for the obesity problem.
> 
> Imagine if a doctor told us all we could do was eat.


just curious- do you have something against raw diets? If so, why? I’m just interested in hearing everyone’s opinions on the matter


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

SRW said:


> By who? She once attended a seminar about wolves and pondered feeding her dog a deer carcass. Now she likes to feed her dogs chicken, vegetables and yogurt and write about it.


No raw feeder would say chicken, vegetables, and yogurt is a balanced diet. I get that you don't like raw, but you also need to recognize that it IS a viable diet when done correctly, and it can be done correctly.


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## Oceanside (Mar 29, 2021)

DogParentofOne said:


> just curious- do you have something against raw diets? If so, why? I’m just interested in hearing everyone’s opinions on the matter


Majority of people have been brainwashed into believing that only commercially prepared kibble diets can possibly meet a dog’s nutritional requirements. That very concept defies all scientific logic and any decent understanding of nutrition will tell you that there are many ways to meet an organism’s needs. Nutrition is not one-size-fits-all. Also, if this were the case, all of the dogs and other animals in the wild would have died off by now from lack of access to Purina 

Plus, companies like Purina spend $100+ million per year in marketing and sponsoring dog sports, which is why so many competitors (including many people on this forum) use their products. It’s a bandwagon. Notice whenever there is a food question on here, several people hop on and say PPP without any questions asked? Hardly ever is another brand mentioned. I’m not saying the products don’t work — they work well for many dogs and Purina spends a fortune making sure that the food works — but the idea that only a dry food is “safe” because there are studies or because a big company formulated it is ridiculous. The brainwashing has caused a lack of open-mindedness, which is important these days.

I have no problem with people feeding kibble, raw, cooked, purchased, homemade, whatever — it is up to every owner to determine what is best for them and their dog — as long as it is meeting the nutritional requirements of the dog.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Taz Monkey said:


> No raw feeder would say chicken, vegetables, and yogurt is a balanced diet. I get that you don't like raw, but you also need to recognize that it IS a viable diet when done correctly, and it can be done correctly.


I don’t care what people feed their dogs, as long as they’re not malnourished.
Feeding raw is very expensive, very inconvenient and not better than quality dry dog food. I do get annoyed when people push the myth that anything other than a raw diet is unhealthy.


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

SRW said:


> I don’t care what people feed their dogs, as long as they’re not malnourished.
> Feeding raw is very expensive, very inconvenient and not better than quality dry dog food. I do get annoyed when people push the myth that anything other than a raw diet is unhealthy.


I never said that. People should feed what they're comfortable feeding. Raw is expensive, yes. It's really not inconvenient. And it CAN be better than a commercial kibble diet IF the commercial kibble diet is what's causing the problems a dog is having. I've also seen some absolutely beautiful dogs that eat kibble. I ju7st don't like to scare people off raw if they're interested in it.


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## sam34 (9 mo ago)

I also don't really care what people feed their dogs. I do feel bad for all the overweight table scrap fed dogs I see, though. If someone has the time and resources to source a raw diet or wants to cook for their dogs, have at it. I'd rather buy it in a bag. My only pet peeve is that many feel like they have to treat their "baby" as a mini person, and therefore it must need variety, and people food to live a good life. Hence, all the fat dogs out there.

Interestingly, I'm not ashamed to admit our first dog lived much of its 14 year life on Dad's dog food. That's also when I learned that if you fed less of a better quality feed, there was a lot less coming out the other end. Like a light bulb went off.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Taz Monkey said:


> The obesity problem stems from a whole number of things, but won't be cured by eating prepackaged foods.


It stems from one thing, eating too much. There is a cure that’s 100% effective. It is called “eating less”.
Stay healthy out there.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

sam34 said:


> table scrap fed dogs


For the younger folks out there, this is old school lingo for "feeding raw". At one time just about everyone did it.


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

SRW said:


> It stems from one thing, eating too much. There is a cure that’s 100% effective. It is called “eating less”.
> Stay healthy out there.


as someone who’s lost 60 lbs. in the last year, it’s eating less, but also eating more of the right foods. My raw fed dogs are eating the same amount of calories as they did on kibble, yet, the once 14 lb. chihuahua is now 11 lbs. and my 13 year old pit mix has a noticeable amount of more muscle than he did 4 years ago before switching to raw. If not for the gray on his face, you’d have no idea he was 13.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Taz Monkey said:


> as someone who’s lost 60 lbs. in the last year, it’s eating less, but also eating more of the right foods.


Well done, Congrats

Do you eat to live or live to eat?


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## DogParentofOne (10 mo ago)

I started this thread in hopes of being genuinely educated on raw feeding, but it ended up turning into an argument.

here’s what I know:

yes kibble CAN be good, but only if it’s a really good brand. i don’t have anything against kibble, but I do not support the companies that dye their food crazy colors or load them with by products just to make production costs cheaper.
Raw CAN be good, but only if you know how to balance the meals right. Again, like kibble, raw has a down side, which would be the cost & that unless you know how to properly portion the meals it really can make their bodies out of whack.

both types of feeding have their benefits and their downsides, but from what I’ve read/seen kibble normally isn’t as healthy. AGAIN kibble isn’t necessarily always bad - there are some really good companies who genuinely care about the health of the dogs eating it. But, from my research, raw just seems to have the most Benefits. i know the majority of people don’t have the money or time to feed raw and that’s OKAY. If you’re comfortable feeding a good kibble, then you do you.

That said, I’m also a bit of a health guru in my own food LOL. I pretty much only eat organic whole foods (meats, veggies, fruits, potatoes, etc…), so I can’t help but want to provide my dog the best nutrition I can. I’m not doing it in a way that “babies” him, but a way that will genuinely improve his coat, help with his allergies, help his body last long as it can, etc…


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## Oceanside (Mar 29, 2021)

DogParentofOne said:


> I started this thread in hopes of being genuinely educated on raw feeding, but it ended up turning into an argument.


It’s pretty much impossible to mention raw feeding without triggering people these days so you really won’t make any progress talking about nutrition on here. There is a dog food forum with a raw food section that has good beginner info. I don’t participate on that forum but I have skimmed through a few times. Might be worth a look.


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## green branch (Oct 24, 2020)

Topics like this are entertaining. In 50 years both kibble and raw diets, in today's form, will probably be considered wrong. You can't conclude that a particular diet is healthy based on personal experiences. Unfortunately, science is also not too trustworthy since the bio/med field is full of papers that no one can reproduce.


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## green branch (Oct 24, 2020)

Oceanside said:


> Plus, companies like Purina spend $100+ million per year in marketing and sponsoring dog sports, which is why so many competitors (including many people on this forum) use their products. It’s a bandwagon. Notice whenever there is a food question on here, several people hop on and say PPP without any questions asked?


Nice observation. Bandwagon or getting paid to advertise?


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## Oceanside (Mar 29, 2021)

green branch said:


> Nice observation. Bandwagon or getting paid to advertise?


Both.


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

SRW said:


> Well done, Congrats
> 
> Do you eat to live or live to eat?


I have always eaten to live. Hence the extra 60 lbs. And I absolutely will not deny myself what I want, if I want it.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Taz Monkey said:


> I have always eaten to live. Hence the extra 60 lbs. And I absolutely will not deny myself what I want, if I want it.


🤦‍♂️


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

SRW said:


> 🤦‍♂️


?
Sorry. I’m not going to measure out a tablespoon of salad dressing. I’m going to drink the wine and eat the cake when the opportunity arises. And going from 206 to 146, I’d say it’s worked out pretty well for me 🤷‍♀️


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## Dakota'smom (Sep 23, 2015)

DogParentofOne said:


> Hey! Currently, feeding raw isn’t something I’d be able to do (for several reasons) but I really want to be able to enhance Percy’s food to make it as healthy as possible. From what I’ve read, doing half cooked/raw and half kibble isn’t beneficial, so how about just doing homemade meal toppers? Do they really make that much of a difference? If so, what differences did you notice in your pup? What meal toppers do you add?


Don’t worry, there is no evidence that raw has any benefits over a science backed kibble. And many cons with risks of food borne pathogens.
If Percy is a puppy then don’t add anything, it’s too easy to throw a nutritionally complete diet out of balance with toppers. All extras, toppers, treats, etc should be under 10% of your dogs daily calories or there is risk of unbalancing diet. I’d also caution that adding toppers can create a picky eater. Www.vetnutrition.tufts.edu has excellent info from board cert vet nutritionists.


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## Dakota'smom (Sep 23, 2015)

DogParentofOne said:


> I started this thread in hopes of being genuinely educated on raw feeding, but it ended up turning into an argument.
> 
> here’s what I know:
> 
> ...


I highly recommend being careful where you are doing your research. There are no scientific studies showing a benefit to raw over a well formulated kibble. Some here have compared kibble to prepackaged processed human foods which is NOT an accurate comparison. Processed human foods are bad bc of saturated fats, high sodium and added sugars. They are not made to be a complete and balanced meal. A good kibble is. There are no extra fats, sodium or sugars. Kibble is better compared to baby formula. 
Another consideration- the feed your dog like the “wild” myth. Dogs don’t live long in the wild. Nature has expectation of producing young and then dying off so that they don’t use resources needed for next generation. 
Raw cons- can be very difficult to balance AND food borne pathogens are a concern for your dog and anyone he comes into contact with. Children? Elderly? Anyone compromised? Imagine your dog chews raw bone walks across the kitchen, living room hops on sofa, on your lap…just left a trail of possible ecoli, salmonella etc. 
Www.vetnutrition.tufts.edu also Fb science based groups - canine nutrition &dog food discussion, and diet-associated dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) in dogs


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

As long as we're sharing links to scientific studies...









Research by DogRisk | Health via Nutrition, Epidemiology and Disease Detection Dogs | University of Helsinki


Here you can find some of the much needed articles that the DogRisk research team has produced and published!




www.helsinki.fi













Low Number of Owner-Reported Suspected Transmission of Foodborne Pathogens From Raw Meat-Based Diets Fed to Dogs and/or Cats


The aim of this worldwide survey was to determine owner-reported frequency of pathogen transmission to humans living in or in contact with households feeding their pets raw, minimally processed (MP) diets. A total of 5,611 responses were gathered from 62 countries with 77.1% of households...




www.frontiersin.org







https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5644655/pdf/vetsci-04-00033.pdf


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## Dakota'smom (Sep 23, 2015)

pawsnpaca said:


> As long as we're sharing links to scientific studies...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Many issues with those “studies”. Not the smallest of which was that it’s a survey. How did they and where did they distribute those surveys?


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Dakota'smom said:


> Many issues with those “studies”. Not the smallest of which was that it’s a survey. How did they and where did they distribute those surveys?


Only one of the links I provided was done based on a survey, and that survey was based on 5611 responses (so hardly a small population). I think that at least makes it worth consideration. Many of the other research efforts discussed in the first link were just as scientific as the studies you linked to. I suggest you read the links and studies in their entirety before concluding that they don't have value...


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## Jasmyne (Dec 28, 2021)

I find it almost comical the argument between kibble and raw… I think we should circle back to the actual question…



DogParentofOne said:


> From what I’ve read, doing half cooked/raw and half kibble isn’t beneficial, so how about just doing homemade meal toppers? Do they really make that much of a difference? If so, what differences did you notice in your pup? What meal toppers do you add?


I have no experience with feeding kibble but I had read a long time ago the reason to not feed kibble and raw or other foods together is that they digest at different rates and could cause stomach upset. This may not be entirely accurate or dog dependent.
I would throw in a raw meaty bone like a turkey neck, raw goats milk, veggies like pumpkin as an in between snack or depending on quantity instead of a meal now and again rather than “topping” a kibble meal.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Dakota'smom said:


> Many issues with those “studies”. Not the smallest of which was that it’s a survey.


So sort of like “Family Feud”.


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