# sending a dog out to wait for directions



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Last night at obedience we got to talking about "go-outs" in the utility ring.
In obedience, the go-outs are typically taught as a destination, not an action. I think this is confusing for dogs. So when we tell a dog to mark and then go-out, they run out until they reach a barrier (target) and then they turn and sit.
So a few of us got to wondering how the field trained dogs are taught to run straight out ahead until you tell them to sit? In obedience, our dogs are limited by the fact that they're going to hit a ring gate or a wall if they keep running. But if we could teach that "run until I tell you to stop" mentality, our dogs would perform much better in the Utility ring, especially for people who show in both AKC and UKC obedience.
I'm not doing a very good job explaining what I'm asking. 
If Tito is in a show ring, and I tell him "go-out", he will run to the other side of the ring, turn and face me, sit on command, then wait for further directions (which will be to jump one of two jumps).
HOWEVER, if we're out in the open, and I tell him to "go-out", he will run a few feet, maybe 20, then turn and look at me, obviously confused as to what should happen next. He doesn't understand the concept of just keep moving until I tell you to sit.
Now, if there's a target involved, such as a ball, I can send him on a go-out, tell him to sit half-way, and he will. Then he will wait for further directions, such as "take it". 
But not if it's just a cold go-out.
How do you do it????


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

we were outside today working this exercise, decided he was going to go out till I told him to sit. After a couple of times of let's say induced go outs, I think it finally dawned on him. He has been going and then turning back and waiting for me to say sit, then take a step or two and sit. Not acceptable. So today after this old tired routine, I took him kindly by the collar, marched his butt out there giving the command the whole way. Several times, at different places. Tried it again, he went out, stood facing the wall touching it, I commanded Sit and lo and behold, he turned and sat. Now tomorrow could be a whole different thing. He knows what I want and by golly, he is going to do what I say. Put one jump out then, first time, he totally blew it off when I gave him the signal. After a gentle reminder of what the whole thing is all about, gave me several perfect go-outs and jumps. Practice, practice, practice I guess. And oh, he did the articles perfectly today. Go figure.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Storee knows a 'go target' for obedience, she goes and hits her target and either comes back for a reward or sits for something tossed - haven't done a lot of the 'sit' end of it just yet. Outside the game is get the toy, I toss a toy, heel her away from it, set her up and send her. But at this point, it's usually two dogs doing the game so it's a race to the toy. In the spring I'll work her solo, but have a second dog waiting and watching and sometimes it'll be a race - if she ever turns around or isn't going out with good speed you can bet the other dog will be released and it'll be a race. I'll also work other games with both of course, but that's where we're at. 

Different commands for both though. But, my guys generally know the difference between obedience and agility and what's expected for each. My old guy had a regular finish, but if I asked him to do that in the agility ring he would simply come running around behind me and shoot out on my left side and strait ahead. Storee hasn't learned that game yet.

Lana


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## John G (Dec 27, 2008)

I understand exactly what you mean! I have trained with OB goups and watched the Natl. Inv. so I thnk I'm on the same page.

I train for field. In field training there are two "types" of retrieves.

1) Marked Retrieves are those that a dog sees "fall" therefore he "marks" them down.

2) Blind Retrieves are retrieves that you send you dog on that he did not see "fall". He is sent blindly to retrieve them.

Blind retrieves are further divided into "sight blinds" where the dog does not see the object thrown but can see the object from the "line" which is to mean from where the dog is sent. Warm blinds are blinds in which the dog knows of the marker such as a traffic cone, tree, bush, etc. that identifies a spot were the dog has retrieved from before or has watched you place an object.

Sight blinds and warm blinds are just used to increase the confidence needed to properlu execute "cold blinds". These are blinds in which the dog has no idea of where they are. The dog only knows that it is out there somewhere and by trusting and listening to his handler, they will find it together.

Some drills are needed to help a dog go in whatever direction you point your dog. The best for this is the Wagon Wheel drill. You are at the center or axis and you set out bumpers or objects maybe 10 yards away to retrieve. First start out by setting out only two objects 180 degrees apart. Then add a third, fourth and so onl until the angles become tighter and tighter. Talk to your dog and let it know when it has picked out the correct object and send him. If he is looking at the wrong object give him a simple "no" and move your body to influence him to line up for the correct object. Sometimes you will have to move up and get closer at first.

Next you can do lining drills such as placing visible objects like white bumpers on a lawn every 10 or so yards apart ina straight line. The dog will learn to keep the momentum and keep going to the next one it sees.

Another way would be "pile work" where you put several objects/bumpers at one spot and you keep backing up or moving to a different spot while sending the dog to this same "pile". The dog gains confidence this way.

Eventually you can have multiple lines or piles and ultimately multiple cold blinds in a field and you determine which one the dog retrieves and/or in which order.

The idea is for the dog to trust you to go until you say stop and to trust your casts. It is a beautiful thing to observe when the team is "working"!

Hope this helps.


John


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Took him kindly by the collar??? LOLOL
Ok, but here's my point...there was still a wall there! I'm trying to figure out how to teach him to go out toward the open world....I think if he could understand that, it would improve his performance in AKC utility but also would set him up for the directed glove retrieve in UKC utility as well as a basis for some field work. 
As soon as the weather breaks a bit maybe we need to bring your guy over here and work this in the big fenced yard, because it's an open looking fence and gives the impression of heading off into the distance, but will be safe....
BTW, missed you at training last night....



my4goldens said:


> we were outside today working this exercise, decided he was going to go out till I told him to sit. After a couple of times of let's say induced go outs, I think it finally dawned on him. He has been going and then turning back and waiting for me to say sit, then take a step or two and sit. Not acceptable. So today after this old tired routine, I took him kindly by the collar, marched his butt out there giving the command the whole way. Several times, at different places. Tried it again, he went out, stood facing the wall touching it, I commanded Sit and lo and behold, he turned and sat. Now tomorrow could be a whole different thing. He knows what I want and by golly, he is going to do what I say. Put one jump out then, first time, he totally blew it off when I gave him the signal. After a gentle reminder of what the whole thing is all about, gave me several perfect go-outs and jumps. Practice, practice, practice I guess. And oh, he did the articles perfectly today. Go figure.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

ok, so ultimately Storee is still looking for an end point, not just heading blindly out until you say stop. This is where I'm trying to head, but have no idea how.
Because of agility, Tito understands targets real well. If I put a target out, even quite far away, like 100 feet, and tell him to "go touch" he will (he'll also probably retrieve the target, but that's another issue that causes no end of grief in agility for the dogs running the course after him).
But I'm trying to figure out, how do I get him to run to NOTHING??
Am I even making sense??? 




Bender said:


> Storee knows a 'go target' for obedience, she goes and hits her target and either comes back for a reward or sits for something tossed - haven't done a lot of the 'sit' end of it just yet. Outside the game is get the toy, I toss a toy, heel her away from it, set her up and send her. But at this point, it's usually two dogs doing the game so it's a race to the toy. In the spring I'll work her solo, but have a second dog waiting and watching and sometimes it'll be a race - if she ever turns around or isn't going out with good speed you can bet the other dog will be released and it'll be a race. I'll also work other games with both of course, but that's where we're at.
> 
> Different commands for both though. But, my guys generally know the difference between obedience and agility and what's expected for each. My old guy had a regular finish, but if I asked him to do that in the agility ring he would simply come running around behind me and shoot out on my left side and strait ahead. Storee hasn't learned that game yet.
> 
> Lana


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I want to be able to send him out, say 50 yards, then command him to stop and sit, looking to me for an arm signal for the direction in which to head.
He's pretty good with marking which glove, for example, to retrieve. He takes signals real well for which jump to go over on directed jumping. If there is, for example, a tennis ball in the yard that he can't see I can point in the correct direction and tell him to go find it, and he will. It's that heading out, just blindly, that we can't do.
I see your point about working it into a pile or something, so that he knows there's still a reward waiting for him "somewhere".
I need to think this over. I can see that understanding this would be a very valuable skill in obedience.



John G said:


> I understand exactly what you mean! I have trained with OB goups and watched the Natl. Inv. so I thnk I'm on the same page.
> 
> "cold blinds". These are blinds in which the dog has no idea of where they are. The dog only knows that it is out there somewhere and by trusting and listening to his handler, they will find it together.
> 
> ...


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

This is the BEST thread. Go outs are something Tally understands but Tango is struggling with. Tally goes out, sits at the hand signal, and waits steady in the ring. I can also send him out our community park football fields and pastures, and he will go until a whistle blast most of the time- sometimes, he looks back for a signal). On the other hand,Tango goes out, sits on the hand signal, then 1/4 of the time comes right back in in or out of the ring. It is frustrating, bc somehow I have untrained her(?????). Tally did do the wagon wheel drill lots last summer and we worked with a great lab trainer on his JH, but Tango never worked with the field training group past the puppy meetings. I wonder if this is why Tally seems to understand the action of going out rather than just the target, but Tango is very unclear on both? I admit, I am frustrated with myself, bc I cant figure out why she "unlearned" her go out. Or rather, she goes out, sits, but no longer waits but instead comes back in(????). It seemed to get confused after we practiced various running fronts(?). She really wants to come front. We are no where near on the same level as you guys, so I really love reading these threads. Tango is younger than Tally by 6 months(they are twenty months and 13 months). I think I rush Tango by accident bc of having just done it with Tally.


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Blinds Retrieves are a difficult concept and take a ton of training. It is much too complex to lay it all out in a post. However I think John G did as well as anyone could!

I remember watching Lee (aka Otis Spunkmeyer) running some HUGE blinds with his dogs Casey and Cooper. I was just blown away at how well they executed these cold blinds. They ran so hard and so confidently. 

Last summer I had the opportunity to train with several of the biggies in the sport. They set up a MONSTER land blind. My guts were wrenched because I knew it would eventually be our turn. Not only was this blind LONG but it was incredibly technical (side hill, past an old fall, swales, hills, you name it). Finally I was called to bring my dog to the line. We picked up the mark and then we set up for the blind. We had troubles and plenty of them. However, I had the pro standing right beside me and he helped me stay with it when I wanted to bail out! After many whistles and casts, Amber was a dot on the horizon. We dug in and finished that blind!

When she returned to the line and before she cooled down, Alice Woodyard snapped a photo of my girl who was so winded and tired. That photo is now on a little blog spot that Alice has. I look at it from time to time and remember what we accomplished!

Again, John G hit it about as well as anyone could in a post.

Randy


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

and how did you get him to understand this??????????????????????




Ljilly28 said:


> . I can also send him out our community park football fields and pastures, and he will go until a whistle blast most of the time- sometimes, he looks back for a signal).


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

First question - in training do you ever run him out of the ring? OH - wait - you use baby gates on your coast, huh? That's a HUGE advantage to ring ropes. I train go outs far beyond the ring 99.9 percent of the time b/c I personally hate the look of a dog that's slowing down as he's approaching the rope, in anticipation of being called for the turn and sit.

In working trials, we did 50 yard go outs. Originally to a target and then we started hiding the target, forcing the dog to trust that something good was out there even if he couldn't see it. We'd pick really natural landmarks to use as our guide and to set the mark for the dog. We started at shorter distances. If the dog ever detoured on the run, we'd race out to where the target was actually hidden and have a grand old time with it ourselves, the idea being to show the dog that we, as handlers, knew where it was all along and had set the dog on the correct path -- too bad for the dog for choosing to detour.

Our group lost interest in training for upper level working trial, so I never completed the training for the super long go outs, which also included directionals like in field work. The guy we were training with has several working trial champions in England and I really respect his techniques.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

Ha ha, thought you'd like the "kindly by the collar" reference. We worked it a little this morning, he remembered yesterday's remedial go out session. Smart dog, too bad he loses his brain sometimes. Yeah, would be great to come out to your place and work. He would probably think he was going on vacation again and temporarily lose his mind, but I think with a little gentle persuasion it would all come back to him. Do you think our dear instructor would give me a utility run thru on Monday? I am still extremely humilated by our pathetic performance Wednesday night.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> ok, so ultimately Storee is still looking for an end point, not just heading blindly out until you say stop. This is where I'm trying to head, but have no idea how.
> 
> 
> > My best guess (field people might correct me on this) is that you want them to think in the end there is something out there, somewhere. So in the end to do a blind they're running out to where they think something is, then you will signal them to stop and change directions. But if they don't think there's anything out there why would they want to go out with any speed?
> ...


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> HOWEVER, if we're out in the open, and I tell him to "go-out", he will run a few feet, maybe 20, then turn and look at me, obviously confused as to what should happen next. He doesn't understand the concept of just keep moving until I tell you to sit.
> Now, if there's a target involved, such as a ball, I can send him on a go-out, tell him to sit half-way, and he will. Then he will wait for further directions, such as "take it".
> But not if it's just a cold go-out.
> How do you do it????


That's one of the reasons I never taught go-outs to an object. "away" means keep going until I tell you not to. I've proofed up to 100ft or so. But it didn't start that way. It started with away means move 6" turn and face me - a hand touch basically. Then go a foot, then...you get the idea. I originally tried to use a target but wasn't happy with the attention on an object rather than a concept. I guess it depends on what your goals are - mine was for me (us) not to rely on ring gating that was setup "just so"...

That was probably clear as mud wasn't it?

Erica


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

*Long reply!!*

Hoteldogs my opinion is you would be best served with John G's pile work example. I will give my interpretation of it here, but as with most things there are many variations.

Start with your dog in heel position. Have several bumpers in your posession and leave your dog there. Walk out 10 yards and turn and face your dog. Drop the bumpers one by one in a small circle/"pile" and as you drop them say a word you want to use as a "cue" to tellthe dog what you are going to do. I use "dead" as in dead bird. Drop all the bumpers except for two and return to your dog's side. Have one bumper in your hand and the other in your back pocket or waist band. Then say your key word (dead) and make sure the dog is looking at the pile. Take the bumper in your hand and toss it to the "pile". As soon a the dog is focused on the pile send him to the pile with the command you want to use (I use "Back"). And the dog should go to the pile and pick up one of the bumpers, it does not matter which one, and return with it. If your dog does not go out to the pile throw the other bumper and send him again using what ever word you use for "fetch". If the dog goes the first time, line him back up facing the pile after taking the bumper from him. Then repeat the cue, the toss to the pile with the second bumper, and send him to get a bumper. If he does this both times without trouble you can now try it without tossing a bumper. Again give your cue word (dead) and as soon as he is focused on the pile send him back to the pile again with your command word. If he hesitates take the bumper from your back pocket/waistband and toss it to the pile and send. And remember this command word is the command you will use in the obedience ring for go-outs. Stay at 10 yards till you can take the dog out to the pile and send without having to toss one to the pile. Once the dog has got the idea, you will start all over again this time lengthen to 20 yards the distance from the pile to the "line" (place you are sending the dog from). Let the dog see you dopping the bumpers into the pile and again each time you drop one use your "cue" word. You gradually lengthen out the distance till you are doing 50 yards or better. You will know when your dog "GETS IT" and you will then start putting out the piles without the dog seeing you do it. But do NOT do this at first so the dog can't "see" he pile from the "line". You will again gradually lengthen out the distance. ALL of these excercises are done with the pile in the exact same spot, you want the dog to know it is there so he is successful. Once your dog is "lining" the pile every time you can now try moving the pile to a new location, make sure the "old pile" location is no where in sight as he may be inclined to return there again. Also make sure at first the dog can see the pile from the line. Then again lengthen out the drill. Eventully you will be able to work piles that are not visible (cold) but don't rush things cofidence is built with success not testing.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

Hmmm, interesting, guess i will dig out our bumpers, starting to make sense now.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

BINGO, that's my point exactly!!



MurphyTeller said:


> That's one of the reasons I never taught go-outs to an object. "away" means keep going until I tell you not to. I've proofed up to 100ft or so. But it didn't start that way. It started with away means move 6" turn and face me - a hand touch basically. Then go a foot, then...you get the idea. I originally tried to use a target but wasn't happy with the attention on an object rather than a concept. I guess it depends on what your goals are - mine was for me (us) not to rely on ring gating that was setup "just so"...
> 
> That was probably clear as mud wasn't it?
> 
> Erica


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks everyone for the replies! A lot of great suggestions, and a lot to think about and work on!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Our rings are all "baby gate" types here. He did jump one once, in training, I'd never want to encourage him to do it again! Scared the heck out of me!




FlyingQuizini said:


> First question - in training do you ever run him out of the ring? OH - wait - you use baby gates on your coast, huh? That's a HUGE advantage to ring ropes. I train go outs far beyond the ring 99.9 percent of the time b/c I personally hate the look of a dog that's slowing down as he's approaching the rope, in anticipation of being called for the turn and sit.
> 
> In working trials, we did 50 yard go outs. Originally to a target and then we started hiding the target, forcing the dog to trust that something good was out there even if he couldn't see it. We'd pick really natural landmarks to use as our guide and to set the mark for the dog. We started at shorter distances. If the dog ever detoured on the run, we'd race out to where the target was actually hidden and have a grand old time with it ourselves, the idea being to show the dog that we, as handlers, knew where it was all along and had set the dog on the correct path -- too bad for the dog for choosing to detour.
> 
> Our group lost interest in training for upper level working trial, so I never completed the training for the super long go outs, which also included directionals like in field work. The guy we were training with has several working trial champions in England and I really respect his techniques.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

BTW, I print everyone's replies (thanks, Hank, for that excellent description) and keep them in a folder to refer to!


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## John G (Dec 27, 2008)

If you are referring to the whistle blast, it is quite simple. Condition the dog to it by simply switching the "sit" command while taking the dog for a walk, with the whistle. After the dog does it well on a leash, begin using it while heeling off-lead. 

I think it also helps if the dog has a retrieving desire. I make the dog sit with a whistle command anytime, even if the dog is just sniffing in the yard or field. Give corrections with a leash and /or riding crop tapped on the back side to get them sitting quickly.

I reward them when they sit to a whistle by throwing a retrieving object for them.

John


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> and how did you get him to understand this??????????????????????


Basics. In fieldwork there are skill sets that are sequentially trained, starting with formalized fundamental obedience commands that prepare the dog for all that is to come. Lacking that firm foundation, all else will be futile. Here's how it goes.

*The components of Basics in order*​1) “Here”​2) “Heel & Sit”​3) “Hold”; automatically evolves to Walking “Hold, Heel, Sit”
4) “Fetch”; ear pinch, which evolves into Walking “Fetch” & “Fetch-no-fetch”
5) Pile work, including Mini-pile, Nine bumper pile; AKA Force to pile
6) 3-handed casting; teaching the 3 basic casts – “Back” and both “Over’s”, including 2-hands _“Back”_
*7)* Mini tee; includes *collar conditioning* to all basic commands, transferring to the _go, stop, cast _functions in micro dimension as preparation for the Single tee.* Also includes De-bolting*
8) Single tee
9) Double tee
*10) Water tee with Swim-by*

Steps 1 & 2 are not just taught, but are formalized and rock solid before advancing to step 3 and beyond. Fortunately, dog training is fun because there is a lot of it to do! This will provide the firm foundation you will need to fairly establish the performace standards you are after.

EvanG


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Once Tally learned to sit at the whistle, he was a pup going out with big labs, so he was always in full flight with his little legs trying to keep up. He got used to hearing the whistle mid- full run. Now he goes out until he hears the whistle kind of naturally.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks, John, he sits on command really well. It's the heading out ahead of me that we have a problem with....




John G said:


> If you are referring to the whistle blast, it is quite simple. Condition the dog to it by simply switching the "sit" command while taking the dog for a walk, with the whistle. After the dog does it well on a leash, begin using it while heeling off-lead.
> 
> I think it also helps if the dog has a retrieving desire. I make the dog sit with a whistle command anytime, even if the dog is just sniffing in the yard or field. Give corrections with a leash and /or riding crop tapped on the back side to get them sitting quickly.
> 
> ...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Evan, I see you mention "go" in #7. How do you teach the dog to "go"?
Thanks!




EvanG said:


> ​1) “Here”
> 
> 
> 2) “Heel & Sit”​
> ...


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Evan, I see you mention "go" in #7. How do you teach the dog to "go"?
> Thanks!


Follow steps 1 - 6. That's the beauty of sequential training; one step leads logically to the next. It is the progressive course from "Fetch", step-by-step through Force-to-pile that trains the dog to reliably go when sent. Not only will the dog know what to do when commanded to go, but he will do it every time! :wavey:

EvanG


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Evan, I see you mention "go" in #7. How do you teach the dog to "go"?
> Thanks!


By the way, when you train your dog to "go" this way, it's not only reliable, but by maintaining balance in your application your dog will also do it stylishly - tail up!

EvanG


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Check put this dog's articles, go outs etc. Wowser. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5SaM-0nPMw


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

holy guacamole!




Ljilly28 said:


> Check put this dog's articles, go outs etc. Wowser. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5SaM-0nPMw


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Rooster will be going through all of this in the next few months. Hold on and let's see where he goes!


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