# hunting with a border collie?



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Ok, just thought that title might get some attention.
Ever since we got the Tito monster at the tender age of 7-1/2 weeks, he stalks things that are in motion. Neither of my other 2 goldens does this. He will crouch (I swear, just like a border collie), wait for the moving object to get to whatever he must consider the correct distance/trajectory/diagonal, then FLIES into action in an all-out run to whatever he's been stalking (most often, another dog or a bird).
What do you hunting folks make of this? It's totally beside the point in obedience and agility, since I've never seen him stalk a judge (yet) so I've never given it much thought one way or the other except to laugh when I see him do it because it seems so typical of a herding dog, not a hunting dog. But that, of course, comes from someone who has never hunted and doesn't even know if that's normal in a hunting dog! Is this something that's common in goldens and my other 2 were just abnormal? 
Mostly, is this something I should encourage/discourage/ignore? 
Does it serve any purpose in a hunting breed?
The other thing he does, which makes me crazy but my other male does it too, is leaves something out in the yard 100 yards or more away (not visible) and comes in the house. 
Then, at some point, often a couple hours later, for no apparent reason he will get up from his bed in the house and ask to be let outside. He will go immediately and directly to where he left the toy or ball, bring it back in, and go back onto his bed with it. 
So a lot of people say dogs can't "think". What makes him suddenly decide to go get the toy/ball that he left in the yard hours ago?
Any insight??


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Well they did use pointers and setters to 'build' the border collie stalk, so it's possible!

He must be related to Storee, she does a lot of border collie style moves like that. She'll stalk and crouch when she's playing or I'm throwing a ball, and will even stand and stare like she's 'giving eye' - no way she's learned all of that from Ticket. And if I take a stick away from her and toss it into the bush, she'll ignore it to a point then fly off to go find it and bring it back. 

She's my first 'field' dog so it's kinda all new to me...

Lana


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I hope some of the "field people" can give us some insight into what use that type of behavior has! It's all VERY new to me!





Bender said:


> Well they did use pointers and setters to 'build' the border collie stalk, so it's possible!
> 
> He must be related to Storee, she does a lot of border collie style moves like that. She'll stalk and crouch when she's playing or I'm throwing a ball, and will even stand and stare like she's 'giving eye' - no way she's learned all of that from Ticket. And if I take a stick away from her and toss it into the bush, she'll ignore it to a point then fly off to go find it and bring it back.
> 
> ...


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

I have seen them do that when upland hunting. I had one that would get low and creep when he got the scent. If you were ever hunting planted birds, he would pick them up before they flushed. Seems like they either go into stalk mode or kick down the door mode.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

ok, my ignorance is hanging all over the place...what would be considered upland hunting??




Tatnall said:


> I have seen them do that when upland hunting. I had one that would get low and creep when he got the scent. If you were ever hunting planted birds, he would pick them up before they flushed. Seems like they either go into stalk mode or kick down the door mode.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

The toy memory is sooooooo part of being a "field" golden. The toy becomes the focus of the hunting or prey drive when there's no hunting or the dog is never taken hunting. I'm not sure what leads them to go back for them later, but I've seen that. Maybe it's a prey instinct?

With Gus, I remember taking him hiking and taking a tennis ball he found away from him. He would carry them for miles if I let him, so I would make him leave them behind, and I'd kick them into the woods. We came back, weeks later, and he ran straight for the spot where he remembered the ball and got it.

Much of what working dogs do (retrieving, herding) is a prey instinct that's been modified by breeding.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> ok, my ignorance is hanging all over the place...what would be considered upland hunting??


Not waterfowl. Pheasant, Grouse, Quail, etc. The dogs use their noses to find birds and flush them so you can shoot them. They are actually hunting as opposed to waterfowl hunting where they are sitting there until you shoot something then they go find it (and sometimes have to hunt for it).


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> With Gus, I remember taking him hiking and taking a tennis ball he found away from him. He would carry them for miles if I let him, so I would make him leave them behind, and I'd kick them into the woods. We came back, weeks later, and he ran straight for the spot where he remembered the ball and got it.


It seems to work best for really nasty stuff, like dead squirrels.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

thanks, now the next time someone refers to upland hunting I will know what they are talking about!





Tatnall said:


> Not waterfowl. Pheasant, Grouse, Quail, etc. The dogs use their noses to find birds and flush them so you can shoot them. They are actually hunting as opposed to waterfowl hunting where they are sitting there until you shoot something then they go find it (and sometimes have to hunt for it).


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Isn't that wild? And people say dogs don't think. How can they possible look for it later if they don't think??




tippykayak said:


> With Gus, I remember taking him hiking and taking a tennis ball he found away from him. He would carry them for miles if I let him, so I would make him leave them behind, and I'd kick them into the woods. We came back, weeks later, and he ran straight for the spot where he remembered the ball and got it.
> 
> Much of what working dogs do (retrieving, herding) is a prey instinct that's been modified by breeding.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Isn't that wild? And people say dogs don't think. How can they possible look for it later if they don't think??


They don't think the way we do, but they have highly developed systems in their brain. Their ability to make associations and remember them is unreal, and because they can use info (smells and sounds beyond our meager senses), they are sometimes _better_ at that than we are. Comet, for example, can tell the difference between the engine noise of Andy's Accord and the neighbor's. I cannot. I think Gus could associate the object he thought of as very powerful (tennis ball) with sights, sounds, and smells in a way that stuck with him for a long time. I wouldn't call it memory in the same exact way we have, but it's a useful, amazing kind of memory.

While I'm on the subject: because they're pack creatures, dogs have a highly developed limbic system, like ours, that allows them to love and bond like we do. Is it the same thing we have? I'd say no, since we have some other abilities, like reason, mixed in to our ability to love. Do they feel affection and bonding as _strongly_ as we do? The observable behavior seems to say yes, and the brain science largely agrees.

Just because the dog lags us substantially in the abstract reasoning department doesn't mean he lags in those other areas. Aren't they incredible creatures?


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> Their ability to make associations and remember them is unreal, and because they can use info (smells and sounds beyond our meager senses), they are sometimes _better_ at that than we are.


This is something I have always been amazed by. But I have never found such good working to describe it!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

yes, excellent explanation tippykayak, thanks!




sammydog said:


> This is something I have always been amazed by. But I have never found such good working to describe it!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Isn't that wild? And people say dogs don't think. How can they possible look for it later if they don't think??


Dogs definately think. It's just that an amazing number of people have a disconnect with the processes. They just don't process information as people do.

That's why they tend to speak to dogs in sentences, and explain in words what they want from the dog, and are then surprised when the dog doesn't respond correctly. They really are very bright, at least many are.

Dogs are situational learners. They experience life. And they most certainly remember!

EvanG


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