# What R your thoughts about Golden-doodles?



## Sqwumpkin

I don't think they're very attractive dogs, whereas an attractive Golden is a spectacular sight, but people seem to be gobbling them up.

Are people foolish for doing so? Or is there something good to consider in a Golden-Doodle?

my jury hasn't deliberated on this...

If this has already been discussed, I apologize in advance. But, I haven't seen anything here about it yet. So I thought I would...


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## Jazzys Mom

By crossing a Golden and a Poodle you are diluting the gene pool of both breeds. All a Goldendoodle, Labradoodle or any other "doodle" is is a mixed breed dog! There are enough of those in the shelters now. Why would anyone want to breed more?? If someone tells you Goldendoodles don't shed don't believe them, its a lie! Doodles have many problems that come from deliberately crossing the 2 breeds. The money they are charging for them is outrageous, its stealing IMO! Goldendoodles and all the other doodles are not sanctioned by AKC and never will be - they are a cross, a mixed breed. If someone wants a mixed breed then I would suggest going to the shelter an looking at all the sad faces there!


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## Bogey's Mom

I think you're going to get some very passionate responses to this. And I doubt anyone will say they are in favor.


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## jwemt81

Here I go. The thing about doodles is that they are NOT an actual breed and so many people are convinced that they are, in fact, this new fancy breed of dog and are paying an outrageous amount of money for a pup when they could just go to a shelter/humane society and pay a small adoption fee and save a dog's life. There are so many homeless dogs out there, many of them mixed breeds, who just want a nice home and a family. These people who go out and pay top dollar for a dog that is a mixed breed are missing out on the chance to actually save a homeless dog's life. That is what angers me so much about these doodle breeders. It's all about the money and the fashion statements. They either don't understand and probably just don't care that most of these dogs end up in shelters and most of them are put to sleep because they can't find homes. It just angers me to no end. 

Okay, that was my rant for the day.


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## Sqwumpkin

Bogey's Mom said:


> I think you're going to get some very passionate responses to this. And I doubt anyone will say they are in favor.


I guess I could have assumed people, like those here, who are passionate about Golden Retrievers would frown on doodles. (But I hate to assume anything)

However, if it's unanimous that goldendoodles aren't what they're hyped to be, why are people buying 'em so fast and at top dollar?

I talked to a Golden breeder today who has started breeding a golden girl or two to standard poodles.

What I've heard about them is that they're hypoallergenic, meaning people with allergies can have them. Is that hype, or is it true?

They supposedly have poodle hair, which supposedly doesn't shed. Any validity to it?

I wonder if anyone here has experience with doodles and could shed some light on these things.


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## cinnamonteal

I really have no problem with the individual dogs involved. Just last weekend I met a really lovely labradoodle that played very well with my pup for about an hour. But the big problem I see with them is that no responsible breeder (or none that I have ever heard of) is involved with with these "designer dogs". It's primarily backyard breeders and puppy mills. The lab mix that I met came from a local puppy mill and ended up in the shelter where his current owner found him. By the time he was about 5 or 6 months old, he was completely under socialized, had never been inside a home and he really didn't even know how to be a dog. (BTW, the owner hired a great trainer and at this point you would never even know he didn't have a wonderful, normal puppyhood.)

But my point is, all the breeds we have today came from some sort of cross. It wouldn't bother me quite so much if the people creating these doodles really knew what they were doing and did it in a very responsible manner. But for the most part they're gambling with genetic traits and passing the dogs off as something that they perhaps aren't (ie, non shedding, hypo-allergenic, etc) and charging lots and lots of money for them.


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## Bender

First off, no reputable breeder is going to sell their poodle or golden to a 'doodle farmer' - so they're usually starting out with less than ideal dogs to breed. 
Then, because they're doing the whole 'hybred vigor' BS, they generally don't do health clearances of any type. Which is bad of course, because they're not only having to deal with the golden health issues, but the poodles as well - more health clearances they 'should' be worried about. 
Third, the breeders tend to brag about non shedding - one of the big reasons people want these mixed breeds - yet they DO shed, and because it's usually a poodle/golden cross they have no idea how much shedding or what the coat will be like. They also tend to have no clue how big the dog will end up or what coat texture will be like - I've seen everything from wire haired to cotton fluff that's HORRID to keep up. 
Then to top it all off, the breeders tend to soak the buyers into thinking they're getting a healthy, low shedding, easy groomed dog and charging an arm and a leg in the process - when those people would be better off going to a shelter if they're not concerned about papers. I've even seen a doodle breeder who made up their own 'health clearance ratings' for her dogs. Want a smaller doodle? No problem, they'll breed to a mini or a toy and promise the dog will end up in the middle - not the same size as the golden retriever parent. And when the goldendoodles aren't selling as well they'll go grab another breed of dog to make a 'whateverdoodle' and sell it for big bucks because they're the first one to think of crossing a bulldog with a poodle - be the first on the block to have your very own 'bulldoodle'! 

Needless to say not a fan. 

Lana


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## spruce

if I had gotten a pound hound & it was a golden/poodle mix I would have felt it was a very special dog. 

Who was it on forum who bought a golden & it turned out it was a goldendoodle? They had a really cutie


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## diana_D

Right now I am angered at someone I know who is trying to breed her mutt to another dog. I tried to be diplomatic and tell her in subtle ways her dog is not pure breed(she assumes he is) - I pasted her the link to the Crufts BOB, I tried a lot to talk her off without insulting her in any way. I suggested her to contact breeders, hoping one would answer and tell her it's not a pure breed. I suggested she did a line check (no way she can do that, of course) to see if any ancestors had genetic problems. 

I cannot approve of such mixes, most, if not all are from unknown background I guess. 
There are too many abandoned dogs in the whole world who deserve a nice house, but will never get it. It really angers me to see people who breed their dogs "just to experience the miracle of birth" or anything else. In this case, I think it's about $$$$. Crossing two breeds and charging a lot is outrageous. 

Sorry for the long vent, but I am really upset and angered - we have a huge problem with strays here, and I really fear those pups will end up in the street. I expressed this concern to that person and she answered "I'll keep them all and enter dog shows with them" Yeah...right...

Again, sorry for the long, full of resentment post. It's not against any members here, but people who do such things.


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## SoGolden

Sqwumpkin said:


> I don't think they're very attractive dogs, whereas an attractive Golden is a spectacular sight, but people seem to be gobbling them up. .


Why the poll? Are you planning to breed them?


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## missmarstar

There are countless topics on this forum about this, and its definitely a "hot button" issue for many. Though I have a feeling you knew that starting this thread.


I think its wrong that they are falsely marketed as "hypoallergenic non-shedding" dogs when it is impossible to make such a claim, and then sold for exorbitant amounts of money. There are plenty of mixed breed dogs in the shelters... those need homes desparately... the last thing we need to be doing is purposely breeding mixed breed dogs and marketing them as some new fad.


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## AquaClaraCanines

I don't really care I guess. But, I don't like them, I don't want one, and I don't get it. For service dog purposes I have no problem with it.


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## Lucky's mom

I think Golden-doodles are here to stay. People like them. If they are bred in a way that they are healthy and they have good socialization, bred with temperament in mind and a warrenty where the breeder stands by the dog....then I think its fine.


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## Pointgold

Are you considering adding a Poodle to your breeding program?

You were really good at researching other threads, I'm surprised you didn't look for all the posts on "doodles".


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## kobusclan6

I think they are cute!  Many many breed of dog, was created from a breed of more then one type!


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## AndyFarmer

Since I R a doofus, I voted No opinion.


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## BeauShel

I like the dogs that I have seen and we have several here on the forum that are just cute as buttons. But I dont like the breeders that breed them and advertise them as hypo allergenic, non shedding and will all have the golden temperment. If someone gave me one or I could rescue one, I would take it but I would not go out and buy one. I would also tell anyone and everyone not to buy one or breed them. 
So I put no opinion because the questions isnt clear enough for me to answer like I would like.


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## Sqwumpkin

I guess I'm just not a Standard Poodle fan. They're awfully smart, but I have yet to meet/see one that wasn't odd in some way or another. Let me put it this way, I wouldn't put one in a room with my kids. I can't quite put my finger on what I don't like about them...

The reason I mention that is because I wonder if most people out there really know what a standard poodle is like?


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## lgnutah

Sqwumpkin said:


> I guess I'm just not a Standard Poodle fan. They're awfully smart, but I have yet to meet/see one that wasn't odd in some way or another. Let me put it this way, I wouldn't put one in a room with my kids. I can't quite put my finger on what I don't like about them...


I was struck by what you said, because I have the same uncomfortable feeling about this dog...and I can't say what exactly it is. I feel a little uneasy around them.


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## Sqwumpkin

jwemt81 said:


> people are convinced that they are, in fact, this new fancy breed of dog and are paying an outrageous amount of money for a pup


Exactly! They're paying crazy amounts of money for them (hey, I'm all for the market being allowed to set the price), and they can't get enough of 'em.

It seems to me the reasons people want them are twofold: hypoallergenic and no shedding. But if it's a cross, not a purebred poodle, how can the seller guarantee the buyer gets those two things???


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## Pointgold

Sqwumpkin said:


> I guess I'm just not a Standard Poodle fan. They're awfully smart, but I have yet to meet/see one that wasn't odd in some way or another. Let me put it this way, I wouldn't put one in a room with my kids. I can't quite put my finger on what I don't like about them...
> 
> The reason I mention that is because I wonder if most people out there really know what a standard poodle is like?


There are actually a lot of posts right here on GRF about Standard Poodles.
Well, I guess since you're not a fan you won't be breeding one of your Goldens to one, thankfully.


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## Jazzys Mom

Ok, at the risk of being whumped on I will say what I feel.

First off, why this thread when there have been so many Goldendoodle threads here before?? Second, you obviously DID NOT read my response. No, doodles are NOT hypoallergenic!!!! That is a fallacy! Third, I would love to know who the irresponsible Golden breeder and Poodle breeder are that are going to breed Goldendoodles so I can steer far clear of them!

Next, Standard Poodles are a VERY intelligent breed and are excellent with children. I wouldn't hesitate to put one in a room with my kids as long as I knew the dog and that foes for ANY breed. I have known many Standard Poodles in my life and they have all been lovely dogs. I would have one in a heartbeat


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## Ash

LOL I will not get started quite frankly I just don't have the energy right now. Just follow this link - www.chantillygoldens.com/welcome.html read down, you won't miss it.


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## Pointgold

Sqwumpkin, I'm curious as to why you don't post about your own dogs? Their CD's, your training, your breeding program... 
It would seem like that would be so much more productive than starting threads just to push buttons.


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## AndyFarmer

A very good friend of mine simply adores standard poodles, in fact, has them in her house with small children (gasp!). Also, on the doodle-front, Dirks fund has had many doodles come through and none of them are a 'threat' to anything. If I were to put a label on them, I'd call them goofy, not aggressive or a threat. I personally don't care for poodles, but to each their own.


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## Romeo1

jwemt81 said:


> Here I go. The thing about doodles is that they are NOT an actual breed and so many people are convinced that they are, in fact, this new fancy breed of dog and are paying an outrageous amount of money for a pup when they could just go to a shelter/humane society and pay a small adoption fee and save a dog's life. There are so many homeless dogs out there, many of them mixed breeds, who just want a nice home and a family. These people who go out and pay top dollar for a dog that is a mixed breed are missing out on the chance to actually save a homeless dog's life. That is what angers me so much about these doodle breeders. It's all about the money and the fashion statements. They either don't understand and probably just don't care that most of these dogs end up in shelters and most of them are put to sleep because they can't find homes. It just angers me to no end.
> 
> Okay, that was my rant for the day.


Well said!


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## Bock

mutts....plain and simple.





This is not to say mutts are bad, I know a lot of mutts that are awesome dogs. However, they are, in fact, simply mutts.

Sorry, to be politically correct-mixed breeds, not mutts.


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## AndyFarmer

Like this one: (LOL)



I've always wanted to post this little picture ROFL!!! Now seems an appropriate time and subject


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## Jackson'sMom

spruce said:


> if I had gotten a pound hound & it was a golden/poodle mix I would have felt it was a very special dog.
> 
> Who was it on forum who bought a golden & it turned out it was a goldendoodle? They had a really cutie


I have nothing against the individual dogs. I love mixed breed dogs and have had at least one in my family for more than 25 years. I have a LOT against unscrupulous people who are adding to the numbers of unwanted dogs killed every year in this country simply because there are no homes for them. I have a LOT against unscrupulous people who just put two dogs together for the sole purpose of making money, health clearances and temperament be ******. And I feel sorry for the fools who spend $900 or $1,000 or more for these mixed breed dogs, thereby rewarding the unscrupulous people who bred the dogs in the first place.

You want a mixed breed dog? Visit your local animal shelter or humane society. If they haven't already, those 'doodles' or 'morkies' or other designer dogs will end up in the shelter with all their less glamorous brethren.


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## Sqwumpkin

Lucky's mom said:


> I think Golden-doodles are here to stay. People like them. If they are bred in a way that they are healthy and they have good socialization, bred with temperament in mind and a warrenty where the breeder stands by the dog....then I think its fine.


I'll second all of the above.

I wouldn't buy one... but if someone else wants one, that's their prerogative.


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## Sqwumpkin

lgnutah said:


> I was struck by what you said, because I have the same uncomfortable feeling about this dog...and I can't say what exactly it is. I feel a little uneasy around them.


a little off topic, but I really like your avatar.


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## Bender

Sqwumpkin said:


> Exactly! They're paying crazy amounts of money for them (hey, I'm all for the market being allowed to set the price), and they can't get enough of 'em.
> 
> It seems to me the reasons people want them are twofold: hypoallergenic and no shedding. But if it's a cross, not a purebred poodle, how can the seller guarantee the buyer gets those two things???


They can't guarantee it at all. But, if you put claims like 'non shedding', 'non allergenic', 'easy care coat', 'intellegent', 'healthy', or 'calm' on a website, along with cute puppy pictures, it doesn't take a lot of brains to know people will buy puppies. 

Temperment wise I've seen some that are 'ok' and some that are more poodle like - very stand offish/skittish. Not a fan of that poodle temperment myself. Coat wise, some shed just as much as a golden would. If I had to own one I'd rather have the hard, scratchy wire coat that sheds vs. the sticky fluffy fuzz that matts up instantly. Have yet to run into one that I couldn't 'pluck' some hair out of, still looking for that non shedding one.

Lana


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## Kohanagold

I've posted several times to doodle threads.... needless to say, I'm so against the fallacies, its not even funny. I feel bad for the dogs because no reputable breeder, I dont care how good they pretend to be, intentionally breeds mixed breed dogs. They are not a breed. Never will be a breed. They are not "healthier". The odds of "nonshedding" is 1 in 4... what happens to the other 3? If you want a pet that you dont care if its purebred or not, go to a shelter, but leave the breeding to the breeders that care about what they're doing and care about more than the almighty dollar. 

BJ


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## Sqwumpkin

my wife just showed me how to search here at GRF. (I never paid attention to the orange bar before)

Pointgold already started a much better thread about doodles. It is HERE. Seems to me there's a link to a good article in that thread.

I'm glad we did a poll, though -- folks can vote how they feel w/out having to explain anything (or even have their feelings made public).


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## Pointgold

Sqwumpkin said:


> my wife just showed me how to search here at GRF. (I never paid attention to the orange bar before)
> 
> Pointgold already started a much better thread about doodles. It is HERE. Seems to me there's a link to a good article in that thread.
> 
> I'm glad we did a poll, though -- folks can vote how they feel w/out having to explain anything (or even have their feelings made public).


So, was it your wife, then, who searched all the threads/posts that you quoted in your previous posts to the "Question about our breeder" thread? :scratchch Odd, since your profile states that your occupation is computers.


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## Jo Ellen

I found the poll useful, really. I'm not surprised there are none in favor but there's quite a few with no opinion. That's what I voted. I'll tell you why...

I never much paid attention to the golden doodle debate until I saw one at the lake a few years ago. I was immediately struck by its beauty and presence. You know how they say about people sometimes, how they light up a room when they walk in? Well, you could say that about this dog. I was mesmerized.

And I've seen pictures of other golden doodles on this forum and I've personally thought they are adorable. 

So I have an open mind at this point. 

:wave:


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I fell in love with a Goldendoodle I met at Agway. The dog was gorgeous, the coat was more poodle like, but the personally was all Golden.

Do I think the owner was foolish for buying a Goldendoodle? No, he had lost his Golden and Goldens are his and his wife's favorite breed, but when they decided to get another dog after their Golden died, they couldn't bring themselves to get a Golden. I guess the reasons for getting a Goldendoodle are not twofold. 

Foolish people make up the world. I'm foolish often. I'm sure we all are.

My vote would be: None of my business.


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## hotel4dogs

I board quite a few golden doodles and labra doodles.
They shed horribly.
They are not hypoallergenic.
For the most part, the ones I get are real nice mutts.
I'm not at all opposed to the dogs. I'm opposed to the people who breed them just to make a quick buck off an unsuspecting public that THINK they are getting hypoallergenic, non-shedding dogs.
They tend to have the health issues of both breeds, especially allergies, which are rampant in both breeds.




Sqwumpkin said:


> I guess I could have assumed people, like those here, who are passionate about Golden Retrievers would frown on doodles. (But I hate to assume anything)
> 
> However, if it's unanimous that goldendoodles aren't what they're hyped to be, why are people buying 'em so fast and at top dollar?
> 
> I talked to a Golden breeder today who has started breeding a golden girl or two to standard poodles.
> 
> What I've heard about them is that they're hypoallergenic, meaning people with allergies can have them. Is that hype, or is it true?
> 
> They supposedly have poodle hair, which supposedly doesn't shed. Any validity to it?
> 
> I wonder if anyone here has experience with doodles and could shed some light on these things.


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## Gwen

hotel4dogs said:


> I board quite a few golden doodles and labra doodles.
> They shed horribly.
> They are not hypoallergenic.
> For the most part, the ones I get are real nice mutts.
> I'm not at all opposed to the dogs. I'm opposed to the people who breed them just to make a quick buck off an unsuspecting public that THINK they are getting hypoallergenic, non-shedding dogs.
> They tend to have the health issues of both breeds, especially allergies, which are rampant in both breeds.


Well said! Huge $$$$$ for mongrels!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

If that's were they want to spend their money, let them. Not everyone goes into buying a Goldendoodle with their eyes closed and believing all the hype. I sometimes think we assume they do. I would adopt one in a minute. I'm not sure that I would go to a breeder the next time I want a dog. I'm thinking rescue. If I were to go to a breeder, I would do what I did with Tucker. Tucker was returned to his breeder by the previous owner. They couldn't handle him. He was just shy of a year old and his Dad is (Pebwin) Mulder. I didn't even know who Mulder was. I was just looking for a dog with clearances.


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## Bob-N-Tash

HORRORS --- mixing two breeds. Oh woe! All is lost! 

What next? Someone will probably attempt a breeding between a Tweed Water Spaniel, the Newfoundland, the Irish Setter and a variety of water spaniels... and perhaps throw in a little bloodhound for good measure. Each in it's own right a perfectly good breed. 

Oh, wait a minute, this has already been done .. and the ultimate result was????? No, you don't say.... a golden retriever?


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## Griffyn'sMom

I actually considered one because I met one once that had the wonderful Golden personality and it didn't shed. They look more like a LARGE wheaten terrier than either of the parents. But once you consider the genetic factor, you realize that the dogs will not be consistant in looks, traits or personality. So... I decided to stick with the tried and true and the Golden hair isn't that bad if you brush them a couple of times a week and vacuum.


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## kobusclan6

> HORRORS --- mixing two breeds. Oh woe! All is lost!
> 
> What next? Someone will probably attempt a breeding between a Tweed Water Spaniel, the Newfoundland, the Irish Setter and a variety of water spaniels... and perhaps throw in a little bloodhound for good measure. Each in it's own right a perfectly good breed.
> 
> Oh, wait a minute, this has already been done .. and the ultimate result was????? No, you don't say.... a golden retriever?
> __________________


 
*LMAO!!!! That was great!!!*


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## paula bedard

I don't have a problem with them. I do think it's too early in their 'existence', with no standard yet met, to sell them as 'shed free or hypo-allergenic'. Some are, some aren't, but one day they most likely will be and then they'll be considered a true Breed.


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## Romeo1

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm not at all opposed to the dogs. I'm opposed to the people *who breed them just to make a quick buck off an unsuspecting public *that THINK they are getting hypoallergenic, non-shedding dogs.


That's how I feel about it. I have nothing against the dogs. They're cute.


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## Jazzys Mom

I feel sorry for the dogs, its not their fault people are stupid. My granddaughter's friend has one and she is adorable, sweet tempered and well mannered. I just wouldn't support the irresponsible breeders by buying one


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## AmbikaGR

Bob-N-Tash said:


> HORRORS --- mixing two breeds. Oh woe! All is lost!
> 
> What next? Someone will probably attempt a breeding between a Tweed Water Spaniel, the Newfoundland, the Irish Setter and a variety of water spaniels... and perhaps throw in a little bloodhound for good measure. Each in it's own right a perfectly good breed.
> 
> Oh, wait a minute, this has already been done .. and the ultimate result was????? No, you don't say.... a golden retriever?


 
I just KNEW someone would go this route and you could not be more WRONG in your analogy. 

The Golden originated from a series of matings carried out by Lord Tweedmouth from 1864 onwards. The starting point was his acquisition of a good looking yellow coloured Flat Coated Retriever which he took to his estate at Guisechan, near Inverness in Scotland. He mated this dog to a Tweed Water Spaniel, a breed now long extinct, and then bred on from the offspring of this mating using the occasional outcross to an Irish Setter, a second Tweed Water Spaniel and a black Flat Coated Retriever. The dogs produced proved to be grand workers, biddable and attractive. Puppies from the matings were given to friends and family, notably his nephew, Lord Ilchester, who also bred them. The dogs bred true to type, and so the forerunners of the breed we know today were established. Back in 1952 a relative of Lord Tweedmouth's made the meticulously kept stud records from 1835 on ALL the dogs kept at Guisachan and on available for all to see. 
What is being done today with the "doodles" is all for the almighty dollar. People assume that if you mix two breeds you will get the BEST of both. Unfortunately that is not how genetics work. While purebred poodles do tend to be hypoallergenic, mixing it with a breed that is not greatly decreases the possiblilty that the offspring will be. Not impossible but not likely. And as stated these dogs are being "mass produced" by many with dogs that are not usually outstanding examples of their breed. Never mind the lack of tracking ALL the offspring and what was produced. There is a organization in Australia that is attempting to do this but I will refrain from my opinion on what that will lead to in the future. I will wait the 50 or so years, just as it took to develop the Golden we know today.


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## Bender

What bothers me is there is no breed standard that any of the breeders follow. So they can't promise a darn thing as to what they're selling. Size? Coat? Temperment? I've seen a bit of everything with doodles. Also no real breed club with a code of ethics of any sort. Now, if it was a matter of an actual breed that originated from the golden and poodle, but is now consistant in size, coat, temperment WITH all the health clearances done that affect both goldens and poodles (until such time as the breed is established and has it's own set of health problems to test for) done on any breeding dog.... and they were actually working towards joining the AKC, looking after their rescues.....

I'd have no problem! But I'd love to see more than a handful of breeders who actually do all the health clearances on ALL of their breeding stock - I haven't yet.

Lana


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## Tanyac

Sqwumpkin said:


> I guess I'm just not a Standard Poodle fan. They're awfully smart, but I have yet to meet/see one that wasn't odd in some way or another. Let me put it this way, I wouldn't put one in a room with my kids. I can't quite put my finger on what I don't like about them...
> 
> The reason I mention that is because I wonder if most people out there really know what a standard poodle is like?


I know what you mean about poodles. I have a friend with one who frightens the living daylights out of me and i'm not nervous around dogs!! He sits at face height with me and just stares in my face. When outside once, he kept running at me and trying to nip my hands which were inside my jacket pocket. He also grabbed my 13 year old's harm when he was playing with my friend's son outside.

I've also known other Standards before and they've all been the same, highly intelligent for sure, but definitely something not to trust!!

I wouldn't have one... EVER! I think I'd definitely have trust issues from my experiences with the breed.


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## Pointgold

I was asked to evaluate a litter of "goldendoodles" (just the name makes me cringe). There was absolutly NO consitency to the litter whatsoever. Some were curly. Some were smooth. Some were straight haired, and some looked like PWD's with bad lion clips. Sizes were inconsistent, as were heads. Yet, the "breeder" was to get $2000 for them. She was spouting the whole "hybrid vigor" BS. 
Anyone who wants a mutt, go for it. I don't care. Mutts are fine. But not hundreds of dollars fine., let alone thousands. 

And the argument that Goldens are mutts doesn't cut mustard.


I'm still wondering what Patrick's motive was in starting this thread.


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## Lucky's mom

When I meet poodles.....I'm just awed. I plan to get one some day. I've only had two experiences.....but I'm sold.


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## Romeo1

Pointgold said:


> Yet, the "breeder" was to get $2000 for them.


Wow. That's just insane.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

AndyFarmer said:


> Like this one: (LOL)
> 
> 
> 
> I've always wanted to post this little picture ROFL!!! Now seems an appropriate time and subject


I have one of those sitting on my desk at work. My boss gave it to me for Christmas! LOL 

Life can be complicated or it can be easy. We make the choice.


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## AndyFarmer

I need to buy one of those....that little button was a great marketing ploy for Staples! And love your siggee quote...so very true Kim.


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## Pointgold

tanyac said:


> I know what you mean about poodles. I have a friend with one who frightens the living daylights out of me and i'm not nervous around dogs!! He sits at face height with me and just stares in my face. When outside once, he kept running at me and trying to nip my hands which were inside my jacket pocket. He also grabbed my 13 year old's harm when he was playing with my friend's son outside.
> 
> I've also known other Standards before and they've all been the same, highly intelligent for sure, but definitely something not to trust!!
> 
> I wouldn't have one... EVER! I think I'd definitely have trust issues from my experiences with the breed.


 
It would seem that you have not been exposed to Poodles of good breeding, or at the very least, dogs that have been poorly trained, if at all. They are brilliant dogs, and the original retriever. I've never met one that I didn't consider trustworthy, and have handled a couple and would take either home. Properly bred Poodles have very similar temperaments to good Goldens, only they are generally smarter.


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## arcane

Bender said:


> Also no real breed club with a code of ethics of any sort.


Now that almost made me choke on my coffee  I am going to refrain from any further comment!! I am laughing just too hard


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I had the pleasure of meeting 3 poodles at the dog park once. They were fast and they were beautiful. They were also very well trained. Boy did they love playing fetch! They pretty much minded their own business, were friendly enough, and got along with people and dogs.


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## arcane

I love the look of a Standard! I have never had the pleasure to be up close and personal however. If you like a poodle get a poodle, if you like a golden, likewise...I abhor doodles of any variety ...Not the dogs themselves b/c they didn't ask to be here. The people marketing and raking in the profits!!!!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

arcane said:


> I love the look of a Standard! I have never had the pleasure to be up close and personal however. If you like a poodle get a poodle, if you like a golden, likewise...I abhor doodles of any variety ...Not the dogs themselves b/c they didn't ask to be here. The people marketing and raking in the profits!!!!


If I were to get a Doodle, it would be a rescue. Heck, I almost brought home a GSD/Husky mix that was found running around the streets of NH, CT. If the opportunity comes along and a dog needs a home and I'm ready...


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## 3SweetGoldens

I usually don't post to most any post that is any way controversial, but I feel so strongly about this, that I feel like I just have to. I personally think it isn't about hypo-allergenic, the shedding, or what ever else these so called breeders say they are breeding for. It is entirely done out of greed, to people willing to pay the price. :no: Yes, I agree as others have said, it is THEIR business if that is what they want to spend their money on, but such a shame to what I consider "ruining" a line in a dog that has taken generations to build.
When I bought Lexi as a puppy, I spent one year looking for that special line I was looking for. It is totally unbelievable to me, that ANY breeder that calls themselves reputable would even think of doing this. That is exactly WHY my puppies are sold on a limited registration. I DO NOT want people just breeding anything to make money. That is why GOOD breeders simply "Cringe" at the word Goldendoodles, or any other mix with a Golden. Hard to understand that those mixed puppies bring in more money than what I charge for one of Lexi's puppies, with a wonderful line on both parents, all clearances, and a good longevity record for Cancer. It just makes no logical sense, IMO.


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## goldengirls550

Pointgold said:


> I was asked to evaluate a litter of "goldendoodles" (just the name makes me cringe). There was absolutly NO consitency to the litter whatsoever. Some were curly. Some were smooth. Some were straight haired, and some looked like PWD's with bad lion clips. Sizes were inconsistent, as were heads. Yet, the "breeder" was to get $2000 for them. She was spouting the whole "hybrid vigor" BS.
> Anyone who wants a mutt, go for it. I don't care. Mutts are fine. But not hundreds of dollars fine., let alone thousands.
> 
> And the argument that Goldens are mutts doesn't cut mustard.
> 
> 
> I'm still wondering what Patrick's motive was in starting this thread.


Well of course there was no consistency. I'm guessing it was an F1. Not even a breed....:no:

You want my opinion...

The "Bad Idea" button was an understatement. 

I'm going to try not to rant about this because I'm a little tired right now.


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## cmichele

I got my poodle mixed mutt from a shelter. He's adorable and I only had to pay a small adoption fee.


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## Sqwumpkin

Just a thought when I hear how much people spend on golden doodles... they're not the "in" thing now amongst the elitests, are they? I'm no where close to being "rich", so I have no idea what society's elite are doing these days.

Has President Obama gotten his puppies yet? I'm guessing if he got one <or two>, they'd definitely be the in thing.


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## paula bedard

News reports from a few weeks back had the Obama's deciding on a PWD. This particular topic also made it's way into a Thread here some months back. The consensus was to rescue.


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## ilovemydogs

Don't get me wrong i have nothing against mixed breed dogs as i own one. I just don't think they need to be purposely created so that people can spend loads of money to get one. Then again I also do not believe in buying a dog. The most I would ever pay would be an adoption fee.


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## mullietucksmom

we have enough unwanted pets in the world...this just adds more..and more...and more


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## Sqwumpkin

paula bedard said:


> News reports from a few weeks back had the Obama's deciding on a PWD. This particular topic also made it's way into a Thread here some months back. The consensus was to rescue.


Oh. Thanks for the update.

IMHO, the Golden Retriever community dodged a bullet on that one.


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## tippykayak

When I hear "Goldendoodles" described by those who sell them, as hypo-allergenic, even tempered dogs with non-shedding coats, I wonder why they don't just breed Poodles with a more careful eye toward temperament. It's like they want Poodles but they're in denial.

I can think of two reasons. The first is some of these breeders want to sell dogs on the claim that they'll have a Golden Retriever's even temperament (which not all Goldens have and some Poodles _do_) and non-shedding coats (which not even the majority of Golden/Poodle mixes will have). Nonetheless, people have bought the myth and will buy the dogs. 

The other reason is that the Poodle has fallen out of favor. A hugely popular dog in earlier parts of the nineteenth century, the poodle is now thought of by many as a froofy or odd dog, not a serious sporting dog. They just look plain old silly at shows, like dog models for hair stylists in training. The Poodle Club of America did not do any favors for this image by keeping the Poodle out of the Sporting Group. So, by crossing the Poodle with another dog, the breeder hopes to keep the qualities of the Poodle they want while getting away from the froof. Of course, a breeding is not a buffet where put what you want on your plate and leave the ambrosia salad behind, so you don't necessarily get the Poodle qualities you want (coat) while leaving behind the high-strung neurosis of the badly-bred Poodle you're using in your program.

The one Labradoodle I know well is a sweetheart, but she has the high-strung qualities of a badly bred poodle, the physical problems (bad heart and dry skin) of a badly bred Lab, and she shed around as much as any yellow lab. And she was rescued by my friend when the lady who paid $1500 and had her shipped across the country couldn't keep her because, you guessed it, she thought she was buying a hypo-allergenic dog. 

A well-bred Poodle is a water retriever of high intelligence with an even temperament, a low-shedding coat, and good trainability. What exactly in there is the Golden/Poodle mix improving on? For the $3000 you just dropped on a Goldendoodle, you could search out a truly excellent Poodle breeder and get a dog that really will be even-tempered, trainable, and very low-shedding. And you'd probably have a bunch left over to protect your ego by getting the dog a sportier haircut or by paying for a bunch of therapy sessions so you can get over your personal issues with owning a Poodle.


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## Kohanagold

AmbikaGR said:


> I just KNEW someone would go this route and you could not be more WRONG in your analogy.
> 
> The Golden originated from a series of matings carried out by Lord Tweedmouth from 1864 onwards. The starting point was his acquisition of a good looking yellow coloured Flat Coated Retriever which he took to his estate at Guisechan, near Inverness in Scotland. He mated this dog to a Tweed Water Spaniel, a breed now long extinct, and then bred on from the offspring of this mating using the occasional outcross to an Irish Setter, a second Tweed Water Spaniel and a black Flat Coated Retriever. The dogs produced proved to be grand workers, biddable and attractive. Puppies from the matings were given to friends and family, notably his nephew, Lord Ilchester, who also bred them. The dogs bred true to type, and so the forerunners of the breed we know today were established. Back in 1952 a relative of Lord Tweedmouth's made the meticulously kept stud records from 1835 on ALL the dogs kept at Guisachan and on available for all to see.
> What is being done today with the "doodles" is all for the almighty dollar. People assume that if you mix two breeds you will get the BEST of both. Unfortunately that is not how genetics work. While purebred poodles do tend to be hypoallergenic, mixing it with a breed that is not greatly decreases the possiblilty that the offspring will be. Not impossible but not likely. And as stated these dogs are being "mass produced" by many with dogs that are not usually outstanding examples of their breed. Never mind the lack of tracking ALL the offspring and what was produced. There is a organization in Australia that is attempting to do this but I will refrain from my opinion on what that will lead to in the future. I will wait the 50 or so years, just as it took to develop the Golden we know today.


I completely agree... it was very methotical, not to mention wasn't simply something dreamed up of crossing 2 breeds of dogs. A cross of 2 breeds does not make a new breed. 

But dont people understand, this was all started with a FAILED experiment in Australia to produce a hypoallergenic service dog? It was completely abandoned on the premise that they weren't getting hypoallergenic dogs, nor were they getting the consistancy they desired in temperment or type to do the job. So, along come these "breeders" that decided to take that same failed experiment, twist the outcome to make it seem like a success, and use it as the basis of their breeding program.... hmmm.... I think I'll stick to experiments that work thank you. 

With all we know about genes and how they work (granted we dont know it all), why is there still a mentality that the laws of genetics only apply when we want them to?? BJ


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## MyCodyBoy

we know a vet and he said they they actually see a lot of mixed brreds like Golden doodls and Labradoodles coming in with a lof of hip problems. more so over pure breeds.
I am staying away from mixed breeds.


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## bluemax50

We have a pet store in the area that seems to specialize in doddles and poos. I stop in to check out the dogs now and then [ states closed them down once already] and the last time I was there I struck up a conversation with the manager as to why so many mixed breeds. I recieved what seemed like a well rehearsed canned response on how by mixing other breeds with a full size poodle [doddle] or a mini poddle [poo] you end up with a dog that doesn't shed and is great for potential owners with allergies. I remarked that even the dogs from the same litter look different from each other so how can they be sure all the so called positive traits from poddles were in all the dogs, never got an answer. I ended the conversation by stating that if a potential owner wanted all the positive traits of a poodle then why not just buy a poodle.


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## Jo Ellen

But then there's Koda ....

:heartbeat


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## RoxyNoodle

tippykayak said:


> When I hear "Goldendoodles" described by those who sell them, as hypo-allergenic, even tempered dogs with non-shedding coats, I wonder why they don't just breed Poodles with a more careful eye toward temperament. It's like they want Poodles but they're in denial.
> 
> I can think of two reasons. The first is some of these breeders want to sell dogs on the claim that they'll have a Golden Retriever's even temperament (which not all Goldens have and some Poodles _do_) and non-shedding coats (which not even the majority of Golden/Poodle mixes will have). Nonetheless, people have bought the myth and will buy the dogs.
> 
> The other reason is that the Poodle has fallen out of favor. A hugely popular dog in earlier parts of the nineteenth century, the poodle is now thought of by many as a froofy or odd dog, not a serious sporting dog. They just look plain old silly at shows, like dog models for hair stylists in training. The Poodle Club of America did not do any favors for this image by keeping the Poodle out of the Sporting Group. So, by crossing the Poodle with another dog, the breeder hopes to keep the qualities of the Poodle they want while getting away from the froof. Of course, a breeding is not a buffet where put what you want on your plate and leave the ambrosia salad behind, so you don't necessarily get the Poodle qualities you want (coat) while leaving behind the high-strung neurosis of the badly-bred Poodle you're using in your program.
> 
> The one Labradoodle I know well is a sweetheart, but she has the high-strung qualities of a badly bred poodle, the physical problems (bad heart and dry skin) of a badly bred Lab, and she shed around as much as any yellow lab. And she was rescued by my friend when the lady who paid $1500 and had her shipped across the country couldn't keep her because, you guessed it, she thought she was buying a hypo-allergenic dog.
> 
> A well-bred Poodle is a water retriever of high intelligence with an even temperament, a low-shedding coat, and good trainability. What exactly in there is the Golden/Poodle mix improving on? For the $3000 you just dropped on a Goldendoodle, you could search out a truly excellent Poodle breeder and get a dog that really will be even-tempered, trainable, and very low-shedding. And you'd probably have a bunch left over to protect your ego by getting the dog a sportier haircut or by paying for a bunch of therapy sessions so you can get over your personal issues with owning a Poodle.


Great Post - exactly how I feel about the whole thing. 

It takes me all my will power not to comment when owners who proudly state 'Golden Doodle' when I ask what breed their dog is. Sometimes I fail and can't help but comment on a characteristic - like 'moves just like a poodle though' or 'looks like my golden on a bad hair day'. I guess I'm not popular, but whilst I'm sure they adore their dogs and they look after them I just don't see the point. Get one or the other for heavens sake!


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## Jo Ellen

I see a public hanging in my future :

When you get one or the other, you don't get this ....


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## Pointgold

Jo Ellen said:


> I see a public hanging in my future :
> 
> When you get one or the other, you don't get this ....


 
And when you breed a Golden Retriever to a Poodle you don't always get this, either.


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## Jo Ellen

I know, that's what's so special about him. He's one in a million, like winning the lottery.

Koda has made me rethink my views on golden doodles. I understand they are not a "breed" .... _yet_. But seriously, what could be so wrong about creating a breed of golden doodles like Koda, over the course of time. I don't think it would endanger the golden retriever breed, or the poodle breed. Koda is a brilliant example of what can go right in the cross ... I would love to have one just like him. And I confess, I would pay big money 

Think what you will :wave:


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## Pointgold

While it may not "endanger" either breed, the "doodles" themselves, because no reputable and caring breeder of either Poodles or Goldens, will sell dogs to anyone producing them, it will be extremely difficult for "doodle" "breeders" to get genetically sound foundation stock, so the health issues will be perpetuated. And contrary to the hybrid vigor argument, crossing the two does not eliminate hip/elbow dysplasia, Cushings Disease, heart problems, eye problems, thyroid disease, etc etc.

Think what you will.


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## Pointgold

Before "doodles", "cockapoos" were the rage (and with the advent of the internet, all of these so-called "designer dogs" have enjoyed a surge in popularity as well as a surge in price). Cockapoos were the first of the Poodle crosses to gain popularity and people have been producing them for decades. They have their own "parent club" (which touts all the same rhetoric as the doodle breeders). And although they have been producing these mixes for many decades, they still don't breed true, they still are inconsistent, and they still have all the health and temperament problems associated with both Cocker Spaniels and Poodles. 
It won't be any different with "doodles".


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## moverking

Wow, Hank, Laura, and Tippykayak get a round of :appl: from me for their posts. I don't think I've seen it better said and I agree 100%. 

Doodles are not bad awful dogs, they're victims, at this point, of human greed and clueless consumers. 

Shoot, the way I came about falling in love with Goldens was by being promised a Doodle puppy by baby-sitting the Golden Retriever mom for 3 weeks. (And her owner was my genetics prof who believed in _cough cough_ 'hybrid' vigor :doh:...somehow my "A" in his course has less meaning now, lol)

I had Sadie before she even delivered:

Everyone should be able to have the dog they want....with full understanding of what they are getting. The sad part is that paying the exhorbitant prices for designer breeds drives the market and perpetuates the industry


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## Lucky's mom

moverking said:


> Doodles are not bad awful dogs, they're victims, at this point, of human greed and clueless consumers.


I think that is what some WANT to believe...customers are clueless. 

Me, having considered a golden doodle find it offensive to be called clueless. That's like me saying anyone who wants a purebred is arrogant. Yep they all are arrogant and trying to impressed their friends....and with so many dogs wanting homes in the shelter. How selfish these people who to buy a pure-bred....and the money they pay! Ridiculous.

It might be that these clueless customers getting goldendoodles aren't so clueless. Thats an inconvenient truth but it is the truth.


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## moverking

Lucky's mom said:


> I think that is what some WANT to believe...customers are clueless.
> 
> Me, having considered a golden doodle find it offensive to be called clueless. That's like me saying anyone who wants a purebred is arrogant. Yep they all are arrogant and trying to impressed their friends....and with so many dogs wanting homes in the shelter. How selfish these people who to buy a pure-bred....and the money they pay! Ridiculous.
> 
> It might be that these clueless customers getting goldendoodles aren't so clueless. Thats an inconvenient truth but it is the truth.


I, in no way, find you clueless, Lucky's mom. You understand the breeding, and also, I believe, just what claims about them are not true. 
Nor do I dislike the look of doodles, it's just not my preference.
Koda is a gorgeous pup, I love his big sweet mug.
I dislike the practice of designer breeds, and the false claims, no clearances, and high prices that accompany them.
But I do disagree with you about a large percentage of the population *not *being clueless about the false claims that accompany designer breedings. A ton of them do end up in shelters for that very reason, right alongside the purebreds that the very same clueless population bought.


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## goldengirls550

moverking said:


> But I do disagree with you about a large percentage of the population *not *being clueless about the false claims that accompany designer breedings. A ton of them do end up in shelters for that very reason, right alongside the purebreds that the very same clueless population bought.


Well said :appl: You are absolutely right.


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## arcane

Lucky's mom said:


> I think that is what some WANT to believe...customers are clueless.
> 
> Me, having considered a golden doodle find it offensive to be called clueless. That's like me saying anyone who wants a purebred is arrogant. Yep they all are arrogant and trying to impressed their friends....and with so many dogs wanting homes in the shelter. How selfish these people who to buy a pure-bred....and the money they pay! Ridiculous.
> 
> It might be that these clueless customers getting goldendoodles aren't so clueless. Thats an inconvenient truth but it is the truth.


I sadly don't think purchasers are clueless, I DO think they are buying the bull$#&%, that the breeders of these mixes are spewing  there is no way they can be guaranteed that they are "non-shedding hypoallergenic, healthier " than the purebreds that make up these mixes. It is simply a $ making venture, with little regard for the puppies produced.


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## Pointgold

Exactly. They aren't "clueless" in that they believe the propaganda about hybrid vigor, hypoalleric & nonshedding properties, etc etc. They read it on the internet, after all! 
Someone who wants one bad enough, whatever the usual reasons are - non-shedding, hypoallegenic, cute - are not going to look for anything that tells them otherwise. Most buyers have their minds set on having one long before they do any research, and for them, there is only one side of the debate. 
I've spoken to many owners of these dogs, most all who have not kept them, and they told me exactly this. "We wanted to believe everything we'd read" was the usual lament.


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## Romeo1

Lucky's mom said:


> I think that is what some WANT to believe...customers are clueless.
> 
> Me, having considered a golden doodle find it offensive to be called clueless. That's like me saying anyone who wants a purebred is arrogant. Yep they all are arrogant and trying to impressed their friends....and with so many dogs wanting homes in the shelter. How selfish these people who to buy a pure-bred....and the money they pay! Ridiculous.
> 
> It might be that these clueless customers getting goldendoodles aren't so clueless. Thats an inconvenient truth but it is the truth.


Well stated and a valid point.


----------



## Pointgold

Lucky's mom said:


> I think that is what some WANT to believe...customers are clueless.
> 
> Me, having considered a golden doodle find it offensive to be called clueless. That's like me saying anyone who wants a purebred is arrogant. Yep they all are arrogant and trying to impressed their friends....and with so many dogs wanting homes in the shelter. How selfish these people who to buy a pure-bred....and the money they pay! Ridiculous.
> 
> It might be that these clueless customers getting goldendoodles aren't so clueless. Thats an inconvenient truth but it is the truth.


Can you share what made you decide not to get a golden doodle?


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## MillysMom

When my brother and his wife began their dog hunt they learned of goldendoodles and decided they wanted to get one. My sister-in-law is allergic to dogs and cats so a hypoallergenic or more allergy sensitive dog was a must. As they continued to research they learned goldendoodles are not always hypoallergenic and often do shed (quite a bit), and often not the best bred dogs. Basically, what everyone is saying here, you can find one in a shelter and don't need to spend a small fortune on one from a breeder. I think they stumbled upon something on the internet denouncing the practice of breeding doodles. They looked into getting a Standard Poodle, but then were introduced to the Polish Lowland Sheepdog by a friend who had purchased one from a fabulous breeder in MA. There happened to be a person who changed their mind and one puppy was available so they went with the PONS and got the most beautiful, gentle, sweet, and playful puppy who actually is appropriate for an owner with allergies and does not shed. They're so glad they didn't get the doodle, and learned A LOT on their dog breed hunt. It is very easy to be led down the wrong path in the hunt for a dog, and I don't think it has to do with a person's brain power or research skills. Once you find that you were wrong it looks so obvious, but it sure is easy to be led astray, especially when using the internet for research.


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## moverking

Laura said it much better than I...calling someone clueless could sound really rude. Alot of these folks *are believing the hype. *. I should say they are clueless that the info is false.


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## Pointgold

MillysMom said:


> When my brother and his wife began their dog hunt they learned of goldendoodles and decided they wanted to get one. My sister-in-law is allergic to dogs and cats so a hypoallergenic or more allergy sensitive dog was a must. As they continued to research they learned goldendoodles are not always hypoallergenic and often do shed (quite a bit), and often not the best bred dogs. Basically, what everyone is saying here, you can find one in a shelter and don't need to spend a small fortune on one from a breeder. I think they stumbled upon something on the internet denouncing the practice of breeding doodles. They looked into getting a Standard Poodle, but then were introduced to the Polish Lowland Sheepdog by a friend who had purchased one from a fabulous breeder in MA. There happened to be a person who changed their mind and one puppy was available so they went with the PONS and got the most beautiful, gentle, sweet, and playful puppy who actually is appropriate for an owner with allergies and does not shed. They're so glad they didn't get the doodle, and learned A LOT on their dog breed hunt. It is very easy to be led down the wrong path in the hunt for a dog, and I don't think it has to do with a person's brain power or research skills. Once you find that you were wrong it looks so obvious, but it sure is easy to be led astray, especially when using the internet for research.


I had a family with 3 PONS in my classes 8 or 9 years ago, they were just being recognized by the AKC. 2 were sweethearts, the other I would not trust as far as I could throw the truck he rode in on. They are fairly typical working/herding dogs, and can be tough. They are pretty cool dogs...


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## MillysMom

Pointgold said:


> I had a family with 3 PONS in my classes 8 or 9 years ago, they were just being recognized by the AKC. 2 were sweethearts, the other I would not trust as far as I could throw the truck he rode in on. They are fairly typical working/herding dogs, and can be tough. They are pretty cool dogs...


Theirs is the only PONS I've ever known, but she is just AMAZING. Very typical herding dog though, and she needs A LOT of stimulation mentally and physically, but extremely intelligent and willing to please. They live in Vermont so there is a lot of opened areas to really work with her. Her sister is the same way, I've been told, just not quite as smart. 

As far as the mixed breeds there has been one that I regularly look for in shelters and on petfinder.com (and have for years) - lab x great dane. I've met 6 of this mix over the years and all were fabulous dogs, looked the same, and had very simular temperments. Of course, these were all mistakes, and I'd never pay for one or encourage someone to breed this mix, but if I come across one in the area you better believe I'm going to go look at it. 

Do you guys think people that founded younger breeds got a lot of hell for breeding mixes to create the breed? I keep thinking about Boykin Spaniels, and that is a relatively new breed, and one I think will be able to be fully recognized by the AKC one of these days.


----------



## Pointgold

MillysMom said:


> Theirs is the only PONS I've ever known, but she is just AMAZING. Very typical herding dog though, and she needs A LOT of stimulation mentally and physically, but extremely intelligent and willing to please. They live in Vermont so there is a lot of opened areas to really work with her. Her sister is the same way, I've been told, just not quite as smart.
> 
> As far as the mixed breeds there has been one that I regularly look for in shelters and on petfinder.com (and have for years) - lab x great dane. I've met 6 of this mix over the years and all were fabulous dogs, looked the same, and had very simular temperments. Of course, these were all mistakes, and I'd never pay for one or encourage someone to breed this mix, but if I come across one in the area you better believe I'm going to go look at it.
> 
> Do you guys think people that founded younger breeds got a lot of hell for breeding mixes to create the breed? I keep thinking about Boykin Spaniels, and that is a relatively new breed, and one I think will be able to be fully recognized by the AKC one of these days.


 
Boykins have been in the Misc Group since 2007. In the big picture, they _are _relatively new, but have been in existence since the early 1900's. They are the state dog of SC. Fanciers have worked very hard to develope and preserve breed type, unlike "designer mixes".


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## BeauShel

I love Boykins. When we lived in SC there was a guy around the corner that had one and that is how I became familiar with them.


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## Lucky's mom

Pointgold said:


> Can you share what made you decide not to get a golden doodle?


Well...I considered Golden-doodles because I wanted less hair since Lucky has so much hanging around. And I think they can be a good risk for less shedding. If you lurk on doodle forums you don't see threads about shedding....so they must be a good risk.

But then I met my first poodles and fell in love. But I'm trying to sell my husband on a poodle. He hates them for some illogical reason.

Ultimately we will probably end up getting a medium size dog from the shelter. A smaller dog has less over-all hair to lose.


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## missmarstar

Lucky's mom said:


> But then I met my first poodles and fell in love. But I'm trying to sell my husband on a poodle. He hates them for some illogical reason.



Jeff would probably rather poke his eyeballs out with knives than even consider a poodle... lol Men.


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## Pointgold

Lucky's mom said:


> Well...I considered Golden-doodles because I wanted less hair since Lucky has so much hanging around. And I think they can be a good risk for less shedding. If you lurk on doodle forums you don't see threads about shedding....so they must be a good risk.
> 
> But then I met my first poodles and fell in love. But I'm trying to sell my husband on a poodle. He hates them for some illogical reason.
> 
> Ultimately we will probably end up getting a medium size dog from the shelter. A smaller dog has less over-all hair to lose.


 
At the shows last weekend I was visting with Joey Vergnetti (Dassin Poodles) and fell head over heels in love with two Standard babies - not quite 7 months old - Dassin Hillwood Dance A Lot and his sister Hillwood Dassin Shut Up N' Dance. Watch for them, I think they are going to be hot. Anyway, they were THE sweetes puppies, and funny, gregarious, and mischevious. My Spinone pal Bill was with me, and he has always professed to H A T E Poodles. They ruined him. He was in love, and Joey's specials bitch, Ch Hillwood Dassin De-Lovely (a Miki daughter) closed the deal. She is jealous of any other dogs getting attention, so she simply stepped over from her table, moved the puppy aside, and stepped down onto Bill's lap. Never looked at the puppies or anyone else, put her head on Bill's shoulder and purred.  He was a goner. We were talking about it at dinner that night and he said he'd never have guessed that they had so much personality and were so loving. The next day I intor'd him to the two women who are doing both breed AND field with their Poodles, and he is going to hunt with them. He's curious about the whole thing, now.

We need to stick your hubby next to those dang Dassin dogs...


----------



## Lucky's mom

Pointgold said:


> At the shows last weekend I was visting with Joey Vergnetti (Dassin Poodles) and fell head over heels in love with two Standard babies - not quite 7 months old - Dassin Hillwood Dance A Lot and his sister Hillwood Dassin Shut Up N' Dance. Watch for them, I think they are going to be hot. Anyway, they were THE sweetes puppies, and funny, gregarious, and mischevious. My Spinone pal Bill was with me, and he has always professed to H A T E Poodles. They ruined him. He was in love, and Joey's specials bitch, Ch Hillwood Dassin De-Lovely (a Miki daughter) closed the deal. She is jealous of any other dogs getting attention, so she simply stepped over from her table, moved the puppy aside, and stepped down onto Bill's lap. Never looked at the puppies or anyone else, put her head on Bill's shoulder and purred.  He was a goner. We were talking about it at dinner that night and he said he'd never have guessed that they had so much personality and were so loving. The next day I intor'd him to the two women who are doing both breed AND field with their Poodles, and he is going to hunt with them. He's curious about the whole thing, now.
> 
> We need to stick your hubby next to those dang Dassin dogs...


Ah, that is a really good story and kinda described how bowled over I was with my measley TWO poodle experiences. 

I know Tim would love a poodle. I simply need to get him near one....


----------



## Pointgold

Lucky's mom said:


> Ah, that is a really good story and kinda described how bowled over I was with my measley TWO poodle experiences.
> 
> I know Tim would love a poodle. I simply need to get him near one....


 
I've known Joseph Vergnetti for years and I can tell you that being around his dogs is always special. They are as close to perfection in ANY breed as I have ever seen. I am not one to be starstruck, but Joseph and his dogs are beyond stars as far as a breeder and what he produces can be. THey are incredible. I have read and re-read his words here a thousand times:
http://www.akc.org/enewsletter/akc_breeder/2007/fall/family.cfm

His love for all dogs is palpable when you are near him.


Here is Sissy - the Specials bitch that closed the deal for Billon her way to BIS #13)


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## Jo Ellen

Pointgold said:


> His love for all dogs is palpable when you are near him.


Even golden doodles?


----------



## Florabora22

missmarstar said:


> Jeff would probably rather poke his eyeballs out with knives than even consider a poodle... lol Men.


I have to admit, I'm the same way. I'm sure Poodles are wonderful dogs so I mean no offense, but I have never found them aesthetically pleasing. I remember as a little girl I would get really angry watching dog shows, because it always seemed like the dorky little mini white poodle would win Best in Show every single time.


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## Pointgold

kdmarsh said:


> I have to admit, I'm the same way. I'm sure Poodles are wonderful dogs so I mean no offense, but I have never found them aesthetically pleasing. I remember as a little girl I would get really angry watching dog shows, because it always seemed like the dorky little mini white poodle would win Best in Show every single time.












They are pure athletes...


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## Pointgold

Jo Ellen said:


> Even golden doodles?


He loves Goldens, and obviously Poodles. He wouldn't blame the golden doodle for having been bred.


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## Florabora22

Pointgold said:


> They are pure athletes...


I would never purport to know anything about poodles, I simply do not find them aesthetically appealing. Their cut has a purpose, I'm aware of that, but I just find it so ridiculous. : 

I've actually always sort of disliked dogs with curly fur ever since I was a child. I genuinely think it's because a poodle next door tried to mount Carmella once when she was a puppy, and that sort of ingrained itself in my mind. I'm silly, I know.


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## Jo Ellen

I agree, poodles don't do it for me. Koda does though :heartbeat

I really love the elegance and beauty of the golden retriever. I don't think I could part with that. But Koda's charm is just an all-over happy feeling, I am so drawn to him


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## Pointgold

kdmarsh said:


> I would never purport to know anything about poodles, I simply do not find them aesthetically appealing. Their cut has a purpose, I'm aware of that, but I just find it so ridiculous. :
> 
> I've actually always sort of disliked dogs with curly fur ever since I was a child. I genuinely think it's because a poodle next door tried to mount Carmella once when she was a puppy, and that sort of ingrained itself in my mind. I'm silly, I know.


 
I was never a fan, myself, until I learned more about the breed and then had the opportunity to be around them and handle them. 
The history of the cut is interesting, and it was utilitarian. It has become overly stylized for the show ring, but even so I've learned to appreciate it for the artistry.
They really are brilliant dogs. When is comes to athleticism and elegance, they pretty much are tops. I love that they are so similar in temperament to Goldens, with extra smarts.  I'd have one in a heartbeat if I were able to do the grooming.


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## Lisa_and_Willow.

I love poodles but I am put off by the show cut. This is more my sort of style.










My fave poodle pic.


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## Florabora22

Pointgold said:


> I was never a fan, myself, until I learned more about the breed and then had the opportunity to be around them and handle them.
> The history of the cut is interesting, and it was utilitarian. It has become overly stylized for the show ring, but even so I've learned to appreciate it for the artistry.
> They really are brilliant dogs. When is comes to athleticism and elegance, they pretty much are tops. I love that they are so similar in temperament to Goldens, with extra smarts.  I'd have one in a heartbeat if I were able to do the grooming.


I suppose it is unfair of me to judge them without /really/ knowing them. I vaguely remember my neighbor's poodle (and from what I recall he was actually quite sweet), but I just can't get past that fancy pantsy poofy haircut when they're in the ring. 

That one pic of a poodle with a bird is much less ridiculous. I keep forgetting that they're a sporting breed.


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## Pointgold

I know I've posted about Poodle coats before - 
Here is a corded Poodle:


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## Jo Ellen

That looks ridiculously high maintenance to me. How do you brush them when they get dirty?


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## Florabora22

Pointgold said:


> I know I've posted about Poodle coats before -
> Here is a corded Poodle:


Is getting that sort of coat a process or does it happen naturally if the coat is allowed to grow to that length?


----------



## Pointgold

kdmarsh said:


> Is getting that sort of coat a process or does it happen naturally if the coat is allowed to grow to that length?


It's definately a process. Not every coat will cord - short, straight coats will not. The curlier the coat, the better if it is to be corded. The process starts at about 6-9 months old, and the coat is not brushed. As mats begin to form, they are then manually separated into "ribbons" - some coats will do this naturally but the owners do need to control them. They are misted daily with water and a leave-in conditioner and air dried several times a week. They are bathed and blown dry weekly as the cords are developing. The cords are manipulated by hand as the coat is being dried.
Once the cords are fully developed and have reached the maximum length, the dog is bathed weekly with a diluted shampoo which is squeezed through the cords, and then completely rinsed out. Excess water is sqeezed out of the cords with an absorbant towel, and the dog is then crated on towels with a stand dryer blowing into the crate The towels are changed frequently for dry towels. This can all be followed up with a hand held dryer to make sure that all cords and the skin are completely dry.
I've only seen a couple of corded Poodles. They are not common because of the work involved, but there is a handfull of fanciers who are committed to preserving the history of the dogs and so they do keep theirs corded. 
I've seen lots of Komondors and Pulik, and also a PWD imported from Portugal, with corded coats, and they are clean and odor free, actually.
The amount of work to keep them is enormous.


----------



## Florabora22

Pointgold said:


> It's definately a process. Not every coat will cord - short, straight coats will not. The curlier the coat, the better if it is to be corded. The process starts at about 6-9 months old, and the coat is not brushed. As mats begin to form, they are then manually separated into "ribbons" - some coats will do this naturally but the owners do need to control them. They are misted daily with water and a leave-in conditioner and air dried several times a week. They are bathed and blown dry weekly as the cords are developing. The cords are manipulated by hand as the coat is being dried.
> Once the cords are fully developed and have reached the maximum length, the dog is bathed weekly with a diluted shampoo which is squeezed through the cords, and then completely rinsed out. Excess water is sqeezed out of the cords with an absorbant towel, and the dog is then crated on towels with a stand dryer blowing into the crate The towels are changed frequently for dry towels. This can all be followed up with a hand held dryer to make sure that all cords and the skin are completely dry.
> I've only seen a couple of corded Poodles. They are not common because of the work involved, but there is a handfull of fanciers who are committed to preserving the history of the dogs and so they do keep theirs corded.
> I've seen lots of Komondors and Pulik, and also a PWD imported from Portugal, with corded coats, and they are clean and odor free, actually.
> The amount of work to keep them is enormous.


Good grief! You'd have to be really dedicated to your dog's coat to go through all that. 

What is the purpose of a corded coat? Does it serve the dog in any way?


----------



## Romeo1

Pointgold said:


> Joseph and his dogs are beyond stars as far as a breeder and what he produces can be. THey are incredible. I have read and re-read his words here a thousand times:
> http://www.akc.org/enewsletter/akc_breeder/2007/fall/family.cfm


Very interesting article.


----------



## Romeo1

Pointgold said:


> Here is a corded Poodle:


Doggie dredlocks?


----------



## Pointgold

kdmarsh said:


> Good grief! You'd have to be really dedicated to your dog's coat to go through all that.
> 
> What is the purpose of a corded coat? Does it serve the dog in any way?


Apparently is began as a fad in Germany in the mid 1800's, and contests were held for the longest cords. They did serve some purpose as far as protection - Poodles were used not only to hunt but also as guard dogs and even herding dogs, and bites do not penetrate the cords. (Continental breeds had to serve many purposes, as people could not afford to keep different dogs for different jobs ie: the Continental style of hunting required a dog to hunt fur, feather, and water fowl.)


----------



## Florabora22

Pointgold said:


> Apparently is began as a fad in Germany in the mid 1800's, and contests were held for the longest cords. They did serve some purpose as far as protection - Poodles were used not only to hunt but also as guard dogs and even herding dogs, and bites do not penetrate the cords. (Continental breeds had to serve many purposes, as people could not afford to keep different dogs for different jobs ie: the Continental style of hunting required a dog to hunt fur, feather, and water fowl.)


Kind of reminds me of those contests for the craziest mustache. 

Sounds like poodles are a pretty versatile breed. Now I'll have to think twice about making a snap judgement when I see my next poodle.


----------



## Pudden

jwemt81 said:


> These people who go out and pay top dollar for a dog that is a mixed breed are missing out on the chance to actually save a homeless dog's life.


technically, you could say the same thing for people who buy a pure-bred dog from a breeder. There are lots of pure-breds in shelters, too. 

Personally, I don't give a hoodle whether a dog is a doodle, a noodle, a yoodle or a google. I care that it's healthy both physically and mentally.

Too many pure breeds have too many health problems bred in. I'm thinking of the messed-up hips of German shepherds, the crippled legs of basset hounds, the squashed faces of pugs etc. I'd want my dog to have a healthy, functional anatomy and legs that can run, whether it's pure-bred or not.


----------



## Pudden

Pointgold said:


> ​


that's what I look like after 4 months of field work...


----------



## Pointgold

Pudden said:


> technically, you could say the same thing for people who buy a pure-bred dog from a breeder. There are lots of pure-breds in shelters, too.
> 
> Personally, I don't give a hoodle whether a dog is a doodle, a noodle, a yoodle or a google. I care that it's healthy both physically and mentally.
> 
> Too many pure breeds have too many health problems bred in. I'm thinking of the messed-up hips of German shepherds, the crippled legs of basset hounds, the squashed faces of pugs etc. I'd want my dog to have a healthy, functional anatomy and legs that can run, whether it's pure-bred or not.


And the chance of you getting a dog like that are increased when you buy from a reputable breeder who is breeding dogs with generations of sound genetic health. With mixed breeds, or purebreds from breeders who do not do genetic health clearances, the chances decrease dramatically.


----------



## Pudden

Pointgold said:


> And the chance of you getting a dog like that are increased when you buy from a reputable breeder who is breeding dogs with generations of sound genetic health. With mixed breeds, or purebreds from breeders who do not do genetic health clearances, the chances decrease dramatically.


that may be so, but what if the health problems _are _part of the breed standard, such as the sloping hips of German shepherds, or the crunched-up legs of bassets? Shouldn't the AKC, if they truly cared about dog health, outlaw such breeding?


----------



## MillysMom

Pointgold said:


> Boykins have been in the Misc Group since 2007. In the big picture, they _are _relatively new, but have been in existence since the early 1900's. They are the state dog of SC. Fanciers have worked very hard to develope and preserve breed type, unlike "designer mixes".


This is VERY true with Boykins. The breed was developed just around the corner from where I grew up. I didn't realize they had been in the Misc Group since 2007 - that makes me happy. I think the Boykin Spaniel is the "right way" to create a breed... if there is a right way. I don't know if it is the work of the fanciers, but even BYB in SC really strive to breed with a purpose, and not just to sell pups.


----------



## z&mom

Okay here are my thoughts and personal opinion as an owner of a mutt, crossbreed, goldendoodle, all-so-wrong dog -- KODA:
1. I will not pay top dollars to buy into the hype of any designer dogs.
2. I will not buy a designer dog because I do not want to contribute to the market/business of unethical breeders.
3. I do not believe in the claims of hybrid vigor (not enough studies/research findings to prove so).

But I did pay a small amount to purchase Koda, and I did it at my own risks (the girl who sold me Koda, she does not have much info on him at all. It was a case of buy it at your own risk). There were several other pure breeds at the store, and they were selling at much higher prices. He was priced cheaper cos there isn't much of a history and simply also because he is a crossbreed.

Latest update, he indeed does not shed. But because of that, I have to groom him, brush him every other day, and trim his hair at least once a month. I do prefer a shedding dog, cos I never really have to brush Z (my purebreed Golden), and she has never been groomed, just simple shower, and towel dry.


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## Jo Ellen

He's simply precious, worth every penny and more 

I never thought about how useful shedding can be but that's awesome that Koda is everything he supposed to be as far as goldendoodles go. You definitely hit the jackpot and I am *GREEN *with envy.


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## Nicole74

I think they are waaaaaaaaay over priced, especially for a mixed breed. The going rate in my area is $1,000 for a goldendoodle. 

There are so many new made up breeds that it's unbelieveable!


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## z&mom

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...pends-350000-on-rare-Tibetan-mastiff-dog.html IMO, this dog is way overpriced too, but the girl who bought him claims that he is priceless. And I feel the same way about my mutt and my purebreed, they are both priceless to me too.


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## BeauShel

I love all animals pure bred or mixed breed. They are all special in their own right. I have to say that your Koda and think he is the cutest doodle I have seen.


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo

All I could do is smile when my neighbors GD pup passed by. He's adorable.


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## hgatesy

This thread made me giggle because my current foster is a goldendoodle. 


















I've never been a big fan of doodles of any type... for various reasons. Zoey is a sweet dog, however she has far too much of the poodle personality for me. Her coat is much like a poodle and she does lightly shed. 

Tyson loves her for some reason. So although I'm not a big fan, he certainly is!


----------



## Ljilly28

What is a "comfort" retriever. I've missed out on this term.

http://www.goldendoodle.net/our_dogs.html


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## Pointgold

"Comfort Retriever" = Cocker Spaniel ex Golden Retriever cross. :yuck:


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## AquaClaraCanines

I think they're ugly because I don't like scruffy dogs. All the Golden doodles I meet at parks here have all kinds of staining and obviously have chronic skin problems. They are all messy and sloppy looking. I can't stand that look in a dog.

I will say that Coda is cute, though- he doesn't look like any Goldendoodle I have ever met in person. 

I think SPs are beautiful, but I prefer a feathered coat.


----------



## Willow52

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I think they're ugly because I don't like scruffy dogs. All the Golden doodles I meet at parks here have all kinds of staining and obviously have chronic skin problems. They are all messy and sloppy looking. I can't stand that look in a dog.
> 
> I will say that Coda is cute, though- he doesn't look like any Goldendoodle I have ever met in person. ...


I totally agree.


----------



## rosemary

spruce said:


> if I had gotten a pound hound & it was a golden/poodle mix I would have felt it was a very special dog.
> 
> Who was it on forum who bought a golden & it turned out it was a goldendoodle? They had a really cutie


 where i live we have a goldendoodle looks like a poodle with the temprement of a golden loves everybody and the child that lives with it has serious asthna and exama one of the triggers is dogs and the doodle doesnt have this effect on her this one was produced by stray and a golden when the golden was in her own back garden


----------



## marleysmummy

Ljilly28 said:


> What is a "comfort" retriever. I've missed out on this term.
> 
> http://www.goldendoodle.net/our_dogs.html


Alot of people think Marley is a "comfort retriever" but we certainly didn't buy him as that!


----------



## Ljilly28

Whoa- there's even an "aussiedoodle" litter listed on this site. 
http://www.goldendoodle.net/litter_information.html

I wonder what makes a dog National Champion on k9data? Is that the same as American Champion? http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=43568


----------



## marleysmummy

Pointgold said:


> "Comfort Retriever" = Cocker Spaniel ex Golden Retriever cross. :yuck:


According to this, they no longer use Cocker Spaniels to make a Comfort Retriever!

http://goldendoodle.net/comfortretrievers.htm


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## zeke11

I don't find them attractive at all.  And I'm not a poodle fan. 

Thank being said, I do have a toy poodle/pomeranian mix. He doesn't look like a poodle or a pom - but a shaggy little mutt! And he doesn't shed - LOL!

Kris


----------



## Pointgold

Marleys mummy said:


> According to this, they no longer use Cocker Spaniels to make a Comfort Retriever!
> 
> http://goldendoodle.net/comfortretrievers.htm


 

Isn't this just special. :doh:

I'm just going to maybe staple my finger or something so that it will distract me from what I'd really like to say about this...


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## ragtym

Hmm...wonder what Crosby's owner would think about this woman using a Crosby daughter to produce Comfort Retrievers ™ :yuck: - http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=318354 and she was 16 months old when she was bred.

"We bred Ivy (akc golden retriever) to Kendi. We expect these pups to be about 35 lbs as adults. The pet pups will be $1,200. Ivy had 2 boys and 1 girl. The pups were born 10/15/09, with pups going to homes around 8 weeks of age, around 12/10/09."


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup

I vote 'against'.

It takes many generations of breeding to create a new breed. The Golden Retriever was bred for a purpose. Each successive breeding was geared toward enhancing the desired traits. 

IF I thought that's what doodle farmers were doing, I'd sort of be okay with it. I don't believe they are. I think they've found a niche for a novelty dog and they do it for the money.

There's no guarantee that any given doodle WILL BE allergen free (most people are allergic to dog dander not dog hair) or whether it will have a golden temperament or not. There's no guarantee that it won't shed. It would take many generations to predictably breed for temperament and/or coat AFTER making sure breeding for health and lifelong soundness comes first. It's difficult enough to get that.

I think people should either get a golden or get a poodle.


----------



## Pointgold

ragtym said:


> Hmm...wonder what Crosby's owner would think about this woman using a Crosby daughter to produce Comfort Retrievers ™ :yuck: - http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=318354 and she was 16 months old when she was bred.
> 
> "We bred Ivy (akc golden retriever) to Kendi. We expect these pups to be about 35 lbs as adults. The pet pups will be $1,200. Ivy had 2 boys and 1 girl. The pups were born 10/15/09, with pups going to homes around 8 weeks of age, around 12/10/09."


 
Aww geeze. It just gets better and better.


----------



## Debles

UGH!!!!! It's bad enough there are so many mixed breed dogs out there in shelters and then so many are doing this "designer puke" thing. People make me sick. They have no clue.


----------



## tessalover

Personally I hate the people taht started the whole Goldendoddle thing! First of a they are cute at all! And second they are putting out a name about Golden and poddles. And third theres all theses mixes sitting in shelters that nobody wants yet they are purposely breeding mixes. And fourth they call the other dogs in the shelters mutts because there a mix yet goldendoddles are just goldendoddles not mutts in the bredders mind! Seriously get a life and breed a purebreed and don't ruin the name of Golden Retrievers, Labradors, Poddles and other breeds!


----------



## Jo Ellen

Do you think Koda is cute?


----------



## coppers-mom

I watched dogs 101 on Animal Planet last night.
The entire show was about designer dogs. Puggle, chiweenie, Labradoodles, Golden Doodles and more.

The Golden Doodles they showed were not especially attractive adn they did mention that they are not necessarily hypoallergenic or lowe shedding. It is a crap shoot since you are playing with genetics. They did recommend a "second generation" I bleieve which they stated was a golden doodle/Gr cross if you wanted to maximize your chance of a hypoallergenic dog. Then why not just get a poodle???


My guys have always been and always will be rescues so I am not the best person to judge. I even have a BassettX who has the most pitiful crooked legs from bad breeding and rickets, but that booger can run!!!!!!!!!!! and goes on 3 hour horse back rides without a problem. HIs legs are unsightly, but quite functional.


----------



## coppers-mom

However, Koda is adorable!


----------



## AmbikaGR

Jo Ellen said:


> Do you think Koda is cute?



Absolutely! As is virtually every puppy mill, back yard, poorly bred dog I have ever seen. But the end does not justify the means in these cases either. JMHO


----------



## Jo Ellen

I agree with you, Ambika. All I'm saying is that Koda tells me there is potential in the cross. If there is a way to reach that potential responsibly, I would not be opposed.


----------



## zeke11

I think Koda is cute. I would never guess he had any golden in him, though. To me he looks kind of like an old english sheepdog!

Kris


----------



## DNL2448

I don't care for the scruffy look, but that is just me. People are dogs purely for profit, as they are not bettering either breed in any way.


----------



## booklady

I like mutts, ergo, I like goldendoodles. That's why so many of my dogs have come from the shelter! I also like purebreds. That's why so many of my other dogs have come from breed rescues. I do not plan on showing, so until there are no more "already here and homeless" dogs - I cannot conceive of ever spending thousands of dollars for any animal. And most especially not for a dog I can find down at the county shelter who needs me more than the designer breeder needs the money.


----------



## doglover123

*Why the anger?*

I have both a golden retriever and a goldendoodle, and they are both healthy and loving companions with great personalities. I don't understand why people are so angry with mixing the golden retriever (or labrador retriever) with a poodle. 

Although the golden retriever and poodle breeds have been established for a long time, both breeds were created by mixing two other dogs, and those dogs were created by mixing two other dogs. See AKC's website about the origination of golden retrievers -- http://www.akc.org/breeds/golden_retriever/index.cfm. All current breeds (including our poodles and GDs) originally were "mutts" as one person termed it. They all originated from the present day wolf, which became what it is today through years of evolution. 

And how does breeding golden retrievers with poodles dilute the genetic heritage of each breed? 

Now, I don't condone reckless breeding or puppy mills, but if a person is responsibly breeding golden retrievers with poodles (e.g., conducting health checks; selecting breeding dogs with preferable quality traits; checking health stats; meeting standards for care of breeding dogs), then what is the friggin big deal?


----------



## tippykayak

doglover123 said:


> I have both a golden retriever and a goldendoodle, and they are both healthy and loving companions with great personalities. I don't understand why people are so angry with mixing the golden retriever (or labrador retriever) with a poodle.
> 
> Although the golden retriever and poodle breeds have been established for a long time, both breeds were created by mixing two other dogs, and those dogs were created by mixing two other dogs. See AKC's website about the origination of golden retrievers -- http://www.akc.org/breeds/golden_retriever/index.cfm. All current breeds (including our poodles and GDs) originally were "mutts" as one person termed it. They all originated from the present day wolf, which became what it is today through years of evolution.
> 
> And how does breeding golden retrievers with poodles dilute the genetic heritage of each breed?
> 
> Now, I don't condone reckless breeding or puppy mills, but if a person is responsibly breeding golden retrievers with poodles (e.g., conducting health checks; selecting breeding dogs with preferable quality traits; checking health stats; meeting standards for care of breeding dogs), then what is the friggin big deal?


Read the thread. Your question has been addressed repeatedly. In the short answer, when you mix two gene pools, you lose the predictability of health, temperament, and conformation you get when breeding two dogs of the same breed. If somebody wanted to create a new breed that bred true each generation, they'd meet with a lot less skepticism than people who are crossing pure labs and pure poodles and selling them for a thousand bucks.


----------



## solinvictus

"Now, I don't condone reckless breeding or puppy mills, but if a person is responsibly breeding golden retrievers with poodles (e.g., conducting health checks; selecting breeding dogs with preferable quality traits; checking health stats; meeting standards for care of breeding dogs), then what is the friggin big deal?"

The big deal is the Golden Retriever Club has a code of ethics.

Those breeding golden and poodle mixes are not following the Clubs code of ethics. 
They are not following the Breed Clubs Rules they are not being responsible breeders. 

The idea behind a breed club is to only breed dogs that will better the breed. Those choosing to breed mixes are not attempting to protect and better the breed.


----------



## Mssjnnfer

There are enough mixed breeds out on the streets and dying in shelters... When someone tries PROFITING from it... it's just sick.

That's the big friggin deal.


----------



## Pointgold

solinvictus said:


> "Now, I don't condone reckless breeding or puppy mills, but if a person is responsibly breeding golden retrievers with poodles (e.g., conducting health checks; selecting breeding dogs with preferable quality traits; checking health stats; meeting standards for care of breeding dogs), then what is the friggin big deal?"
> 
> The big deal is the Golden Retriever Club has a code of ethics.
> 
> Those breeding golden and poodle mixes are not following the Clubs code of ethics.
> They are not following the Breed Clubs Rules they are not being responsible breeders.
> 
> The idea behind a breed club is to only breed dogs that will better the breed. Those choosing to breed mixes are not attempting to protect and better the breed.


And the "friggin big deal" is that the way these dogs are marketed is "reckless". Claims are made of sound healt, hypoallergenic properties, etc etc that simpy are not true. And unknowing buyers spend thousands for dogs that are not what they think they are.
It's been gone over and over and over.


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## AmbikaGR

doglover123 said:


> I
> 
> Now, I don't condone reckless breeding or puppy mills, but if a person is responsibly breeding golden retrievers with poodles (e.g., conducting health checks; selecting breeding dogs with preferable quality traits; checking health stats; meeting standards for care of breeding dogs), then what is the friggin big deal?



The "friggin big deal" is that none of these folks are doing that. They are just taking any two dogs, breeding them and then claiming they have the "best" of both breeds in their dogs. Like they have magically eliminated all of the "bad". And then charge a ridiculous price by making all kinds of statements that are unfounded and untrue. 
And that is why the anger. They prey on the uneducated and naive.


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## Megora

tippykayak said:


> Read the thread. Your question has been addressed repeatedly. In the short answer, when you mix two gene pools, you lose the predictability of health, temperament, and conformation you get when breeding two dogs of the same breed. *If somebody wanted to create a new breed that bred true each generation, they'd meet with a lot less skepticism than people who are crossing pure labs and pure poodles and selling them for a thousand bucks*.


I think this is exactly right... 

There isn't enough science or forethought going into the creation of these mixed breeds. And I don't think you can tell the difference between the responsible breeders who are deliberately crossing quality dogs of both breeds and those people who are trying to sell an 'accidental' bred dog for the same price as a purebred dog. The sales theory that is working for them is just apply a clever name to the 'breed' and people will fall for it. 

I don't mind people dabbling and deliberately mixing certain QUALITY dogs because they want to create a certain type of dog or improve the health of the breeds. I know there are certain mutts out there who actually are a lot more attractive (behavior and looks) than either of their parents. 

For example, I'm not that terrible interested in beagles or bassett hounds, but I absolutely love the crosses which basically are slightly laidback beagles with the long ears and limped eyes of the bassett. 

Same thing with beagles and pugs. <- I love puggles. I don't care if people judge me. : 

And I like Cockapoos - who have been around much longer than the goldendoodles, and have been more popular than the labradoodles. I know plenty of people who wanted a lap dog like a cocker spaniel who did not have the ridiculous coat of the cocker spaniel.

Mixing a golden with a poodle though... I'm not sure I understand why you'd do that when you already have a labradoodle. I have no idea if they are calmer dogs than the labradoodles, or why you would deliberately make that unnecessary cross. :uhoh:


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## rappwizard

Ditto Tippykayak--as a general rule, you don't see the standard health clearances (hips, eyes, elbow and heart) that are recommended as clearances for sire and dam (for the golden part of the golden doodle--I don't know what the recommended clearances are for the poodle, but I would think they would be similar).

The Golden Retriever Club of America does not condone, as per its Code Of Ethics, having golden breeders allow their breeding stock to be used to create golden doodles--so that leaves me to believe, since your reputable breeders want to adhere to the standards of the GRCA's COE, what breeding stock is being used from the golden part to create the golden doodle? Does it come from a reputable breeder? I would say the odds are--not.

Also, golden doodles were an offshoot of the original doodle--the labradoodle, created as a service dog in Australia for those who had allergies, or whose family members had allergies--the experiment failed--it was difficult to reliably breed allergy free dogs from this pairing--yet the hybrids continued. So the "doodle's" origin is, and again, it's my opinion, rather controversial--created for one thing--didn't work out--but others jumped on the band wagon and decided to continue on with it.

I don't claim to know about the origin of each and every pure bred dog, but in the origination of the their breeds, the one thing that stands true is that they were bred for a purpose, and breeders continued to breed them for that purpose. What is the purpose of the doodle? Allergy free companion dog? It can't be reliably bred. So why breed it? That's really the $800 or $1000 or $1500 or $500 question--or however much doodles go for nowadays.


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## Bender

And in most cases, unlike good breeders, they don't do health clearances and more or less pump out puppies. One site I looked at the other day had 35! puppies on the ground, out of 5 litters, and two more litters on the way. Some pups sold, some not, very pushy towards the sales end of things. They were charging the same as purebred puppies with clearances too, and the dogs are all just puppy machines.

Of course they have a health contract but it's based on the buyer giving their dog back to them only. The other beef I have is these breeders don't suggest anything about getting a rescue dog, nor do they seem to ever do any rescue. I know some of the golden/lab/poodle rescues in some areas stopped taking doodles because there'd be so many of them dumped in some areas.... yet the breeders of doodles in those areas were still pumping out hundreds of dogs.

Lana


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## tippykayak

I think it would be helpful to make a distinction here:

Goldendoodles and labradoodles are a bad idea because they defeat the purpose of purebreeding dogs. You lose the predictability of health and temperament without gaining anything. If, like the Australian Labradoodle people, your goal is to create a new breed with a specific type and characteristics, then more power to you. I can't say I like the dogs they're producing or really see the point in their efforts, but they're actually trying to produce a new breed that breeds true and can achieve predictability of type, health, and temperament.

However, goldendoodle and labradoodle _breeders_ are _typically_ not great breeders. Even if somebody "did all the health checks," they wouldn't have the predictability of a purebred dog. So even the best intentioned breed-mixer is still just producing mutts who may or may not have coats like a Poodle or temperament like a Golden, no matter what their claims.

So you can't say, in response to these comments, "what if it were a responsible breeder?" since, by definition, you can't responsibly breed mutts. The most important part of responsible breed is breeding for health. By definition, you can't do that when you cross a Poodle and a Lab, even if you cross their offspring for several generations.


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## Ljilly28

The whole phenomenon is so sad- moneymaking marketing for living things like living biology experiments now that Doodles have "cache":Comfort retrievers, Artic Retrievers, Goldenberners, Kittypoos, Bulldogadoodles. Golden and Poodle breeders have spent a 100 years learning lines and preserving their breeds, only to have the ultimate outcross with an uncertain health outcome done in the name of a silly fad. I love all dogs, but I cringe when I see the "tudes of some of our dog training clients who come in with "doodle". They inevitably feel they bought the latest, greatest, and most superior form of dog, and it is interesting to see them interact with 1) owners of mixed breed rescues( Nice mutt, mine is a purebred doodle), or some of the AKC champion dogs around our center like the number 5 Dobie btch in the country( Oh, you and I both have purebred dogs). It would be fine with me if someone loved and rescued poodle mixes, but it makes me crazy that many of the owners I meet genuinely, genuoinely believe "doodle" is a breed. I can't think of one golden breeder I respect who woud consent to breed her dog to a poodle. After this thread first began, I started asking my doodle clients what kind of research on the parents health clearances they did. They have no clue what I am talking about.


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## Ljilly28

Mssjnnfer said:


> There are enough mixed breeds out on the streets and dying in shelters... When someone tries PROFITING from it... it's just sick.


Great comment!


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## Pointgold

Fine first post, btw, doglover123. Welcome to the Golden Retriever Forum. 

Interesting to me, also, are those who condone the whole Doodle, "designer mutt" thing, and who think nothing of forking out a miniimum of a grand for these mongrels, yet complain about the prices that responsible, caring, committed breeders of purebred Goldens, or Poodles, or Labradors (or any other _________ being _used) _ask for puppies that are carefully bred, with long histories of health clearances, and titles in many venues. I've even heard some doodle/mutt" owners comment on how "that whole White English Cream Golden" thing is a marketing scam. Sheesh.


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## arcane

Pointgold said:


> And the "friggin big deal" is that the way these dogs are marketed is "reckless". Claims are made of sound healt, hypoallergenic properties, etc etc that simpy are not true. And unknowing buyers spend thousands for dogs that are not what they think they are.
> It's been gone over and over and over.


thank you!  you took the words right outa my mouth! :curtain:


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## 2DogsN3Cats

I wasnt going to comment till I read about the chiweenie thing. BFs step sister has a Chiweenie and it is the UGLIEST dog Ive ever seen in my life. It is allergic to itsself and looks like a badly bred chihahua with literally no hair around its eyes and arm pits. Its neurotic annoying yappy and Id gladly let my 'weenie' beat it up in a heart beat! 

I cant stand the whole designer breed 'purse dog' fad. Its gross annoying and just adds more and more to the dogs that are already dying every year in shelters or left out on the streets. I think if I tried to put Franklin in a purse he would knaw my arm off he is the anti purse dog. He is rough tough and ready to rumble and is nothing like a 'little frou frou' dog is supposed to be. But he is pure doxie thru and thru exactly like his bred temprement calls for, personally I wouldnt have it any other way. I like the big blocky "Im gonna eat you" dogs. I swear if someone came up to me bragging about their 'purebred doodle' or whatever Id bop them right on the nose. Im already not allowed around BFs step sister because 1 my dog hates her dog and will eat her monster and 2 she raves about chiweenies like they are a godsend or whatever and it drives me up a wall and starts a battle between her and I about designer dogs and properly bred dogs. 

Ugh people!!!


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## Kohanagold

You know, I feel like this argument is a broken record. 

I get rather raised when I hear people talk about how every breed started out as a "mutt"... the difference is that each breed that was bred into that "mutt" was done so for a PURPOSE. And it was not simply TWO breeds, but many different breeds, and over many generations were they added. 

I am generally a dog person. My first dog was a "cockapoo" 20 yrs ago and even then, they were being sold to unsuspecting (my parents being a couple of them) people that were told they were a breed of their own. Now, 20 yrs later, we're STILL having this same arguement. But, for example, I think they call them the Alaskan Husky (I could be wrong and thinking of another "breed")... dogs bred for sled dog racing. They have quite a lot of greyhound in there and several other breeds that I dont know, but I can appreciate them. Why? Because they're bred for a PURPOSE. They are bred to do a job, and every dog that is put into it is put there for a reason. Just like our Goldens were, and the poodle, and the lab. Not simply "I'll mix 2 breeds and see what I get and then charge 1500.00 for one". 

Oh yes, and I agree with Pointgold. It really upsets me when people willing to pay that 1500.00 then in turn suggest that 1000.00 is a lot of money for a dog. I think we've probably all heard that one. But I wont go off on that tangeant. 

It is not that anyone here (well most anyone anyhow) is against mixed breed dogs (I'd venture to guess that most of us have owned a "mutt" in our lifetime). We all love an adorable puppy regardless of where it came from or what the breed is (its not the puppy's fault!). If somebody came here and said they took in this doodle puppy and dont know what to feed it, how to train it, what to do if its sick, or even what to name it, most of us would be accepting and accomidating. The problem is we all take offense to careless breeding (purebred or otherwise) and have a real problem sitting by and watching somebody get ripped off. And dont kid yourself, it is careless to breed 2 different breeds of dogs and pass them off as a breed of their own, and it is a scam to then sell those puppies for high prices and claiming they are something they're not.


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## 2DogsN3Cats

Kohanagold said:


> You know, I feel like this argument is a broken record.
> 
> I get rather raised when I hear people talk about how every breed started out as a "mutt"... the difference is that each breed that was bred into that "mutt" was done so for a PURPOSE. And it was not simply TWO breeds, but many different breeds, and over many generations were they added.
> 
> I am generally a dog person. My first dog was a "cockapoo" 20 yrs ago and even then, they were being sold to unsuspecting (my parents being a couple of them) people that were told they were a breed of their own. Now, 20 yrs later, we're STILL having this same arguement. But, for example, I think they call them the Alaskan Husky (I could be wrong and thinking of another "breed")... dogs bred for sled dog racing. They have quite a lot of greyhound in there and several other breeds that I dont know, but I can appreciate them. Why? Because they're bred for a PURPOSE. They are bred to do a job, and every dog that is put into it is put there for a reason. Just like our Goldens were, and the poodle, and the lab. Not simply "I'll mix 2 breeds and see what I get and then charge 1500.00 for one".
> 
> Oh yes, and I agree with Pointgold. It really upsets me when people willing to pay that 1500.00 then in turn suggest that 1000.00 is a lot of money for a dog. I think we've probably all heard that one. But I wont go off on that tangeant.
> 
> It is not that anyone here (well most anyone anyhow) is against mixed breed dogs (I'd venture to guess that most of us have owned a "mutt" in our lifetime). We all love an adorable puppy regardless of where it came from or what the breed is (its not the puppy's fault!). If somebody came here and said they took in this doodle puppy and dont know what to feed it, how to train it, what to do if its sick, or even what to name it, most of us would be accepting and accomidating. The problem is we all take offense to careless breeding (purebred or otherwise) and have a real problem sitting by and watching somebody get ripped off. And dont kid yourself, it is careless to breed 2 different breeds of dogs and pass them off as a breed of their own, and it is a scam to then sell those puppies for high prices and claiming they are something they're not.


 
I think your post was extremely well said. I like it alot!


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## Ljilly28

Hey! Tally got propositioned by a "doodle" again today! Seond time in two weeks. . . I tried to have good manners, so my main commentary was in the subtext of saying POODLE MIX in conversation instead of "doodle". I did explain that I felt it was a very bad breach of ethics to deliberately breed mixes when so many shelter dogs need homes, and that also the ethics of the GRCA forbade it, and that all my breeders would murder me as they should. 

Three "doodle" breeders have suddenly started appearing On Ferry Beach with 7 or 8 doodles each. They claim they have better dogs than poodles or retrievers because of that old sawhorse that mixed breeds have more genetic vitality. Anyway, they are very proud they belong to this: Goldendoodle Breeders, Labradoodle Breeders & Puppies for Sale w/ Health Tested Doodles


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## Jackson'sMom

Never underestimate the stupidity of the American public.


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## Maggies mom

There a medical nightmare... we have had some come in the rescue, as 3 month old puppies and they have cost us a pile of money, due to liver shunts. The one we have right now, in medical cost so far is 7200.00 and he still has to have an other operation. Some of the others we have taken in there temperments were horrible, but then we have had a few really great ones....


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## lgnutah

What was it PT Barnum said? A sucker is born every second. The world is full of people who are easily tricked and there are also plenty of scam artists ready willing and able to pull the wool over the eyes of anyone they can (and as a bonus the people who are fooled are PROUD of the way they were scammed)


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## Ljilly28

I asked if they could have treats, and the guy breeder told me they are allergic to chicken, beef, and rabbit, "but nothing environmental". At that point, I just said" have a good day" and walked on. The woman commented on how uniform the dogs were now that they are 4th generation doodles. . .


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## CarolinaCasey

Ljilly28 said:


> Three "doodle" breeders have suddenly started appearing On Ferry Beach with 7 or 8 doodles each. They claim they have better dogs than poodles or retrievers because of that old sawhorse that mixed breeds have more genetic vitality. Anyway, they are very proud they belong to this: Goldendoodle Breeders, Labradoodle Breeders & Puppies for Sale w/ Health Tested Doodles


I am impressed that you were able to keep calm while turning down those propositions. I had someone ask if they could use Gibbs as a stud (he is 13 weeks old!!!!!!!!) in a few months. I about choked, I didn't even know where to start telling her all of the reasons that was wrong!:yuck:

I went to that website you liked to. It is laughable. Especially this part...



> All Breeding stock used for breeding before the age of two, must be fully tested. Although OFA will not certify the hips or elbows of any dogs before the age of TWO, our breeders are required to obtain a Prelim from the OFA to show their dogs suitable to be used as breeding stock or have Pennhip certified clearances on the hips.





Jackson'sMom said:


> Never underestimate the stupidity of the American public.


So true!:doh:


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## tippykayak

Ljilly28 said:


> Anyway, they are very proud they belong to this: Goldendoodle Breeders, Labradoodle Breeders & Puppies for Sale w/ Health Tested Doodles


What a horrible, hypocritical site. Here's a gem:



> In order to accomplish this goal our Goldendoodle Breeders & Labradoodle Breeders are doing the extensive testing recommended by the specific breed organizations, such as The Poodle Club of America and The Golden Retriever Club of America along with the Veterinary Universities and Research Centers.


Er...you do the testing recommended by the breed clubs, but you ignore the position statements of both clubs on the issue of Poodle mixes. Idiots!


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## Ljilly28

CarolinaCasey said:


> I am impressed that you were able to keep calm while turning down those propositions. I had someone ask if they could use Gibbs as a stud (he is 13 weeks old!!!!!!!!) in a few months. I about choked, I didn't even know where to start telling her all of the reasons that was wrong!:yuck:
> 
> :


Yes, that kind of thing is just shocking! Your beautiful innocent Gibbs is just a puppy, and they are already trying to breed him to a doodle! Hell, no. . .


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## Ljilly28

tippykayak said:


> What a horrible, hypocritical site. Here's a gem:
> 
> 
> 
> Er...you do the testing recommended by the breed clubs, but you ignore the position statements of both clubs on the issue of Poodle mixes. Idiots!


I can't believe they've suddenly discovered Ferry Beach. The guy breeder also let his doodles run up tp a mom with toddlers sprawled on a blanket, and she was not pleased. All the dog people work so hard to keep the voice command rule so the beach won't get taken away, but here comes this truckload of dogs. . . Grrrrr.


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## Karen2

_I can't believe they've suddenly discovered Ferry Beach. The guy breeder also let his doodles run up tp a mom with toddlers sprawled on a blanket, and she was not pleased. All the dog people work so hard to keep the voice command rule so the beach won't get taken away, but here comes this truckload of dogs. . . Grrrrr._

That would have ticked me off too.
Karen


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## Abby

I like goldendoodles. They're cute and the fact that they shed LESS (not none) is greatly appreciated, especially by my mother 
In fact I was going to get a goldendoodle (from a great breeder, they she had goldens her whole life, till she got married, husband allergic and started breeding doodles instead) before but it turns out they wouldn't ship and there were no good breeder with litter available in my area. 
Of course, the craze of designer dogs and people charging outrageous prices for them is just absurd. I hate the fact that it spawns an industry of irresponsible breeding, but when it's done right, I think all breeds, cross or not, are just lovely when raised properly and bred well.


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## solinvictus

"from a great breeder"

We have a different opinion on what makes up a great breeder.

Anyone that takes a purebred golden and a purebred poodle and mixes them is going against the code of ethics of both breed clubs. For me, not being ethical equals not being a great breeder.

Of course that isn't the only thing I would consider when evaluating a breeder but it certainly would be one of the many things.


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## tippykayak

Abby said:


> I like goldendoodles. They're cute and the fact that they shed LESS (not none) is greatly appreciated, especially by my mother


Enjoy your crucifixion.


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## Jamm

Im not a fan, i also met a 'mini goldendoodle' at my work. The dog had a ton of issues with people/men/big dark objects and was allergic to almost all of the foods in our store. He also had arthritis at age 1.5.. hmm i wonder why


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## Phillyfisher

tippykayak said:


> Enjoy your crucifixion.


Bahahahahahah! Never liked doodles. Ruins 2 great dogs.


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## Abby

Jeez why is is everyone hating on goldendoodles? So what is they're mixed? As long as the breeder is doing a good job, breeding ethically, ensuring health in the lines, who cares what breed they are?
There are plenty of dogs who have health problems at a young age, that particular dog may have been bred poorly, but that doesn't mean all goldendoodles are.
If goldendoodles in general are being condemned because they are mixed, then why don't we shut down all shelters while were at it? I really don't unserstand the hate against goldendoodles. Can someone explain to me why a healthy, well-bred goldendoodle is any less of a pet, friend ad family member than any other dog, or golden retriever?


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## Abby

Sory for the double post, but I also have to mention-
Goldendoodles and labradoodles, when bred well, as with all dogs, are a combination of 2 very capable breeds. Both labs and goldens are used as as therapy and assistance dogs, but goldendoodles and labradoodles are being used for disabled people who are allergic to goldens and labs. Though a doodle doesn't guarantee a shed-free or hypoallergenic dog, they certainly are an improvement. In fact, I belive the first labradooodles bred in the 80's as guide dogs to help blind people who were allergic to the fur and dander of labs. The poodle allowed for a more hypoallergenic coat and the lab helped create a versatile and trainable dog.
From wikipedia- 
The first known use of the term "Labradoodle" was by Sir Donald Campbell to describe his Labrador/Poodle cross dog in his 1955 book, "Into the Water Barrier". However, the Labradoodle was first bred deliberately in 1988, when Australian breeder Wally Conron crossed the Labrador Retriever and Standard Poodle at Guide Dogs Victoria.[1][2]
Conron's aim was to combine the low-shedding coat of the Poodle with the gentleness and trainability of the Labrador, and to provide a guide dog suitable for people with allergies to fur and dander.[3] He'd received a request from a vision impaired woman in Hawaii for a guide dog that did not aggravate her husband's allergy to dog hair. Originally he planned to train a Standard Poodle, but hair and saliva samples of thirty-three different poodles sent to the woman's husband all caused an allergic reaction. A Labradoodle litter was bred, and the husband did not have an allergic reaction to one of the puppies from the litter. This puppy, Sultan, was successfully trained by Guide Dogs Victoria, and became the first Labradoodle Guide dog.[4]
Although Guide Dogs Victoria no longer breed Labradoodles, they are bred by other guide and assistance dog organizations in Australia and elsewhere.[5][6] Labradoodles are now widely used around the world as guide, assistance, and therapy dogs as well as being popular family dogs.


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## z&mom

Abby said:


> Jeez why is is everyone hating on goldendoodles? So what is they're mixed? As long as the breeder is doing a good job, breeding ethically, ensuring health in the lines, who cares what breed they are?
> There are plenty of dogs who have health problems at a young age, that particular dog may have been bred poorly, but that doesn't mean all goldendoodles are.
> If goldendoodles in general are being condemned because they are mixed, then why don't we shut down all shelters while were at it? I really don't unserstand the hate against goldendoodles. Can someone explain to me why a healthy, well-bred goldendoodle is any less of a pet, friend ad family member than any other dog, or golden retriever?


Abby, I am guessing many do not like the looks of Goldendoodles & Labradoodles, while others abhor the reasons they are being bred -- i.e. a money making ploy since many of them are sold at high prices as "designer dogs"... hence perpetuating _indiscriminate _breeding of two/three wonderful pure breeds (Golden, Lab and Poodle). And there are also others who really frown upon people who paid for these cross-breeds, as we (I have one of these cross-breeds) are deemed the facilitators who keep these _indiscriminate _breeders in business.


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## tippykayak

Abby said:


> Jeez why is is everyone hating on goldendoodles? So what is they're mixed? As long as the breeder is doing a good job, breeding ethically, ensuring health in the lines, who cares what breed they are?


Read the thread. All of your questions have been answered exhaustively.

But, the short version, in case you don't feel like it:

Mixing breeds removes the predictability of purebreeding while opening up all the problems of a small gene pool. You cannot ensure health in your lines if you are mixing breeds. Labradoodles (or goldendoodles) are at risk for all the genetic conditions of _both_ breeds without the mitigating predictability you can achieve through careful purebreeding.

The guide dog program for labradoodles was given up, and the man who started it has gone on record saying he regrets starting the fad.

Only 1/4 lab/poodle or golden/poodle crosses come out low-shedding. You could increase those numbers by crossing the mixes with each other, but most "doodle" breeders aren't doing that. The Australian Labradoodle people are, but many of us don't really see the point of trying to create a new breed of dog out of the two original breeds. There is no such foundation for Golden/Poodle mixes, so that excuse doesn't even exist for "goldendoodle" breeders.

Nobody is against rescuing mixes from shelters. Most of us are against the indiscriminate creation of those mixes in the first place by disreputable breeders.

Nobody is hating on the dogs. What's in the thread is mostly against the breeders who produce them without a full understanding of what they're doing. Most of us are against the untrue claims that come along with most doodle sales (non-shedding, "hypoallergenic," best of both breeds, hybrid vigor, etc.). Most of us are against the marketing of dogs as "designer" or somehow an improvement over the original breeds which they aren't, and they don't seem to be on the way there either.


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## Kohanagold

Abby said:


> Jeez why is is everyone hating on goldendoodles? So what is they're mixed? As long as the breeder is doing a good job, breeding ethically, ensuring health in the lines, who cares what breed they are?
> There are plenty of dogs who have health problems at a young age, that particular dog may have been bred poorly, but that doesn't mean all goldendoodles are.
> If goldendoodles in general are being condemned because they are mixed, then why don't we shut down all shelters while were at it? I really don't unserstand the hate against goldendoodles. Can someone explain to me why a healthy, well-bred goldendoodle is any less of a pet, friend ad family member than any other dog, or golden retriever?


Yes, labradoodles were started by the guide dog program in Australia as an experiment. It was a resounding FLOP! They neither got what they expected nor got what they wanted. 

The problem with goldendoodles (to name a few) are the fact that they are NOT being bred ethically. Its impossible. You can not produce mutts "ethically". You are not protecting a breed you care about. You are not bettering the breed you have been entrusted to protect. There are no parent breed clubs to belong to for education, health, and a code of ethics. There is no breed standard. Pretty much all the things that go into "ethical breeding" aren't there. "Ethical breeding" has nothing to do with loving the dog or your intentions with the dog.

As for what that has to do with how good of a pet the dog will make... it has absolutely NOTHING to do with that. Puppy mill puppies make good pets. Truthfully, they do. Maybe not as good of pets as a well bred dog, but simply taking into account of being a loving companion, sure they do. Does that mean we should all decide that puppy mills are okay? I am not against the DOG but the practices that go into creating the dog. I have a house full of mixed breed rescues along with my goldens. I love them all, but that does not mean I agree that they should have been produced intentionally and that they should have been sold for outrageous amounts of money. I dont hate any dog, but I do find it frustrating that people honestly believe these dogs are created "ethically" without really understanding what that means, and that these doodle breeders are so clever in their advertising that they actually make people believe it is about something other than the price tag. BJ


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## Pointgold

"Well bred Doodles" is an oxymoron.


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## Abby

So what if there's no breed standard. Breeders don't have to conform their dogs to something to be ethical. And yes, I agree, people who promote "designer dogs" and sell at ridiculous prices just for the fad are terrible, but people who actually care for the dogs, like the joint personalities of the poodle and golden and appreciate the lower-shedding qualities, have all the rights in the world to go out and buy a wellbred goldendoodles. I also belive that there are doodle breeders who do infact care about their dogs. The breeder I was about to buy from had all health clearances & testing and a 2 year health guarantee. And yes, I read the contract and guarantee, both solid. 

I just want to do an experiment, if anyone has the times, please humour me:
Let's analyze some doodle breeder websites- 3 random sites I found on a google search, I didn't read through them, pretty random. I have to go now, but when I have time tomorrow, I'll read through and give my humble opinion.
TRUELOVE GOLDENDOODLES | MINI GOLDENDOODLES,GOLDENDOODLES,PETITE MINI GOLDENDOODLE!
Mini Goldendoodle Breeder - Ontario, Canada Goldendoodle Puppies
Australian Labradoodle Puppies for Sale | Vancouver BC Breeder

Ok, so all you knowledgeable dog folks out there, any red flags? (I know there will be plenty, just humour me


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## Pointgold

Abby said:


> So what if there's no breed standard. Breeders don't have to conform their dogs to something to be ethical. And yes, I agree, people who promote "designer dogs" and sell at ridiculous prices just for the fad are terrible, but people who actually care for the dogs, like the joint personalities of the poodle and golden and appreciate the lower-shedding qualities, have all the rights in the world to go out and buy a wellbred goldendoodles. I also belive that there are doodle breeders who do infact care about their dogs. The breeder I was about to buy from had all health clearances & testing and a 2 year health guarantee. And yes, I read the contract and guarantee, both solid.
> 
> I just want to do an experiment, if anyone has the times, please humour me:
> Let's analyze some doodle breeder websites- 3 random sites I found on a google search, I didn't read through them, pretty random. I have to go now, but when I have time tomorrow, I'll read through and give my humble opinion.
> TRUELOVE GOLDENDOODLES | MINI GOLDENDOODLES,GOLDENDOODLES,PETITE MINI GOLDENDOODLE!
> Mini Goldendoodle Breeder - Ontario, Canada Goldendoodle Puppies
> Australian Labradoodle Puppies for Sale | Vancouver BC Breeder
> 
> Ok, so all you knowledgeable dog folks out there, any red flags? (I know there will be plenty, just humour me


 
Really, why? You seem to miss, or intentionally ignore, every single sound reason that has been given already as to why "doodles" of any type are not supported. Do you have a dog?


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## Pointgold

Truelove - I cannot even get past the misspellings in the first few paragraphs, and then the use of the word "hybrid".

Doodle Creek - "tiny", "mini", and "medium"? And, featuring "future stars" as dogs that will be incorporated into their breeding "program" without even knowing if they are genetically healthy reminds me of GoldRocks, and then, add that you pay for the level of health guarantee, and MUST use NuVet - screams puppy mill. (As does the sheer volume of dogs.)

Copper Canyon - as above, and then add the "foster program" which is nothing more than a means for them to have even MORE litters, without having to care for the bitches themselves.

ICK on every last one of them. If they were breeding Goldens I'd say exactly the same thing.

Why are you even here trying to promote such nonsense? 

BTW - all of this was cheerfully posted on the first page of all 3 sites - I couldn't stomach looking further.:yuck:


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## Jamm

Rescues mix's at a shelter are totally different then someone INTENTIONALLY making a mix that will probably have alot of issues. Its sad to say but goldendoodles and labradoodles have started a whole new trend of designer breeds and they are getting more and more disgusting. A golden/basset mix? "if you want the cute look of a golden but in the small size of a basset we have PURE BRED basset/golden mix's!!!!" THATS what some idiots are marketing now. Dogs are not meant to be mixed like that on purpose. It messes the genetics and you end up with a ton more dogs in shelters then necessary. Goldendoodles = baddd idea. 

edit. Ugh and those 'breeders' disgust me. HOW do those breeders think breeding a miniature poodle (15lbs) to a golden (70+lbs) seems 'normal'? those just make me sick. I agree with PG and Tippykayak. If your not going to read the reasons people have posted theres no sense in proving you wrong anymore.


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## tippykayak

Abby said:


> So what if there's no breed standard. Breeders don't have to conform their dogs to something to be ethical. And yes, I agree, people who promote "designer dogs" and sell at ridiculous prices just for the fad are terrible, but people who actually care for the dogs, like the joint personalities of the poodle and golden and appreciate the lower-shedding qualities, have all the rights in the world to go out and buy a wellbred goldendoodles. I also belive that there are doodle breeders who do infact care about their dogs. The breeder I was about to buy from had all health clearances & testing and a 2 year health guarantee. And yes, I read the contract and guarantee, both solid.


If you're going to ignore all the points in my post, I don't see any basis for continuing a discussion. What about predictability and health?


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## tippykayak

PS - when you mix breeds, it's not a salad bar where you pick the characteristics you want from each breed. You get a grab bag of randomness, and you can get things that don't usually show up in either.

Throw a healthy lab and a healthy poodle together, and your chances are much higher for heart, joint, skin, allergy, etc. problems than if you put two healthy labs or two healthy poodles together. You only have a 1/4 chance that the coat will come out like a poodle's.

Plus, a poodle is already an intelligent, loyal water retriever. What exactly are you trying to add by mixing in a lab?


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## DianaM

I don't understand why people don't just get a poodle if they don't want a shedding dog.


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## Pointgold

DianaM said:


> I don't understand why people don't just get a poodle if they don't want a shedding dog.


Poodles _do _shed! However, because of the type of coat, the dead hairs don't come off the same as say a Lab or Golden (although you will see _some _on your clothes and furniture, but not as much as other breeds). The dead hair "weave" into the dog's coat, becoming felted (tightly matted) if not brushed and combed daily. Any groomer can tell you about the experience of having to shave a felted Poodle and having the coat come off as a jacket.
As for allergies, it is an enzyme in dog saliva that is the main culprit of allergic reactions to dogs and cats, and the dander, as opposed to the hair itself. Because dogs (and cats) lick themselves, people may react to the hair because of that.


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## Jamm

Poodles totally shed. Even the little 'hypo allergenic morkipoo's'


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## Kohanagold

Abby said:


> The breeder I was about to buy from had all health clearances & testing and a 2 year health guarantee. And yes, I read the contract and guarantee, both solid.


Curious, but what health clearances & testing? Usually its the parent club that uses research and studies in which their breed is involved in that decide which tests need to be done. Things are always changing and new tests are always being added. Simply doing a dogs hips and eyes (unless that is all that is recommended by your parent club) isn't good enough. To say they had "all health clearances"... of course they did! There is no parent club to draw up a list of applicable clearances to protect the health of the breed. Health guarantees, while important, really dont mean much unless your puppy is really quite ill (and even then, you would typically still need a diagnosis from a board certified vet). Most people that buy mixes especially are generally looking for a pet and will not likely pack their dog up to a clearance clinic to have clearances done (which is what most breeders guarantee against). So, while that might seem like a really good thing to do, it really doesn't mean much without a parent club. 

A standard is the very foundation of an ethical breeding program. Without a standard and some degree of structural quality, the dog will not make a good pet. It is one of the 3 corners to the triangle. Without all 3, it all falls apart.


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## Ljilly28

When Copley had a peek of his hips and elbows( awesome, by the way, thank goodness), my vet and I looked at PennHips' averages & ratios for a bunch of breeds. It was interesting to us that the goldendoodles have worse average hip scores than either goldens or purebred poodles.
I was surprised by that, as I thought they would be the same.


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## Sultan's mother

I've met a bunch of poodle mixes including a cavalierpoo and it's due to the mistaken understanding that any dog mixed with a poodle will not shed. As others have said, that's not at all the case -an owner of a labradoodle told me, it's a 50/50 chance that the dog will have fur or hair and they can be quite temperamental.


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## tippykayak

Ljilly28 said:


> When Copley had a peek of his hips and elbows( awesome, by the way, thank goodness), my vet and I looked at PennHips' averages & ratios for a bunch of breeds. It was interesting to us that the goldendoodles have worse average hip scores than either goldens or purebred poodles.
> I was surprised by that, as I thought they would be the same.


I think that confirms what we might expect: that great breeders of Poodles and Goldens are not allowing (or at least trying not to allow) their dogs into these mixed breed programs, and therefore the mixes that are being x-rayed are coming from below-average hip pedigrees to begin with. Add to that that breeders of Poodle/GR mixes may be less concerned with health on average than GR breeders. Some GR breeders are absolutely atrocious, but there are lots of GR breeders doing nearly everything right. How many "doodle" breeders, on average, have the experience and ethics of a great GR breeder?

GR and Poodle overall hip scores are also going to be heavily influenced by the massive number of ratings done by high quality breeders. The pool of mixes wouldn't have that benefit.

There also might be a predictability issue. I'd also expect a wider variation in hip formations in a mixed breed dog because of the greater genetic variability. If you think about simply the difference in structure through the hip of a Poodle versus a GR, you can imagine quite a bit of variability when the two are mixed.

Fascinating data, though. It doesn't prove a whole lot, since there's no control, but it certainly seems to confirm what we know about the breeding of Poodle crosses.


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## solinvictus

None of those breeders are ethical. The code of ethics of each breed is for each breeder to breed to better the breed. Mixing breeds together is not bettering the breed it is diluting it.

Poodles, Labradors, and Goldens all can function as guide/service dogs. Mixing the breeds does not do anything special to add to them being guide/service dogs. In most cases if someone needs a particular dog due to allergies then they should choose the poodle. 
As others have said the original program using labs and poodles didn't really do what they had hoped. "MOST" of the people out there today breeding these mixes are really just in it for the money.


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## DianaM

solinvictus said:


> None of those breeders are ethical. The code of ethics of each breed is for each breeder to breed to better the breed. Mixing breeds together is not bettering the breed it is diluting it.
> 
> Poodles, Labradors, and Goldens all can function as guide/service dogs. Mixing the breeds does not do anything special to add to them being guide/service dogs. *In most cases if someone needs a particular dog due to allergies then they should choose the poodle. *
> As others have said the original program using labs and poodles didn't really do what they had hoped. "MOST" of the people out there today breeding these mixes are really just in it for the money.


This is what I should have said earlier... not necessarily the shedding but the whole allergy thing as well. Although, most people that I have talked to who own doodles are quick to tell me that their dogs don't shed which makes me think that is why they got the doodle in the first place. At least that is what they believe anyway. Maybe they are in denial since they got the doodle for that reason. I still wonder why not just get a poodle?


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## Pointgold

DianaM said:


> This is what I should have said earlier... not necessarily the shedding but the whole allergy thing as well. Although, most people that I have talked to who own doodles are quick to tell me that their dogs don't shed which makes me think that is why they got the doodle in the first place. At least that is what they believe anyway. Maybe they are in denial since they got the doodle for that reason. I still wonder why not just get a poodle?


"doodle" coats mat even worse than purebred Poodle coats do when not groomed on a daily basis, to remove SHED hair which is weaving into itself and the "live" coat, turning to "felt". Ask any groomer. "doodle" hair is, as a rule, much softer than Poodle coat, making it even more difficult to stay on top of matting.


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## DianaM

Pointgold said:


> "doodle" coats mat even worse than purebred Poodle coats do when not groomed on a daily basis, to remove SHED hair which is weaving into itself and the "live" coat, turning to "felt". Ask any groomer. "doodle" hair is, as a rule, much softer than Poodle coat, making it even more difficult to stay on top of matting.


Oh yea I totally agree. A coworker of mine has a labradoodle and was very upset when they had to buzz the poor dog because he was so matted. I told him he needs to brush him daily but I doubt he is. He is used to having a lab which doesnt require much. The reason they got the labradoodle is because his wife didn't want the fur everywhere and that was their compromise. I'm sure the dog will be shaved down again soon enough.


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## Megora

> I still wonder why not just get a poodle?


I wonder if it is a macho thing... 

There are people out there who would never buy a poodle because they have this perception of the breed being yappy, fussy, and naturally bald in various spots....  

Or maybe they think they will be calmer.

Or maybe they expect there to be less need for grooming with a poodle mix. 

Or maybe they are coming to that decision from the opposite side (previous poodle owners)... 

There is a lady on my street who owns three standard poodles. These dogs all stand taller than my golden retriever and are impressive dogs. Because they are pets, they all have the standard pet cut, but the owner still has to groom them every day because of the coats matting very easily. 

They also are very active and very vocal. 

When people walk past their yard, they will run rings around the perimeter of the yard (because they can). And they all enjoy barking. It's something that concerns the owner because of course she doesn't want any trouble with the neighbors, especially this one guy (the troll man) who hates her dogs (simply because they are poodles). 

From that perspective, I guess somebody looking for a hypo-allergenic dog might be duped into thinking that a labradoodle might be "better" or easier to care for than a standard poodle. 

The woman who lives next door to the lady with the three poodles owns a labradoodle. As I've said earlier in the thread, if all labradoodles were like this one, I'd probably see the attraction in the breed. The dog never barks. He has the high intelligence and energy level of the poodles, but he uses it for working. His owners are hunters (they hunt everything) and use him as a retriever and companion dog. 

The reason why the owner went with a labradoodle is because the owners' previous dog was a miniature poodle who was close to 16 when she died. When they went looking for their next dog, they wanted one that would be a good hunting dog and they wanted one that reminded them of their previous dog.


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## Bender

Most of the doodles I've seen have very high needs for grooming (aka they end up being shaved down to naked most of the time) that the owners usually don't keep up on. Personality wise, I find them to be very aloof and stand offish, much like a poodle where they don't want to be handled by anyone other than their owners, they do the 'can't catch me' and so on. I haven't met one that had more of a retriever 'I love everybody' temperment. One had a low care coat, it was a labradoodle that had a wire coat that was just icky, the dog looked like an Irish wolfhound mix.

Lana


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## Braccarius

In all honesty the reason why you're seeing people get Golden Doodles is they are buying into the hype of this monstrosity! (Just kidding..... sorta) They think they are getting the Golden disposition mixed with the low shedding poodle coat and the hypo-allergenic bananas that the breeders are spouting. I always laugh when I think of the people expecting the docile non-shedding doodle getting the high-strung shedathon.


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## Selli-Belle

Here is Selli doing her impression of a Goldendoodle wearing the felted coat of a poodle I had just groomed. She may be a little to calm for a doodle though. 

I have met dozens of doodles and have at least a dozen who are members of our dog park. I am not that crazy about most of them. There are two or three that I like, they seem to have more Golden temperaments. I don't know if I have met any labradoodles that I really like.

Last week I temperament tested a rather shy labradoodle puppy (five months old), the pup had a coat like a terrier, which I actually like better than the curly coats (mainly because I will never have to clip it), but when I told her that based on the doodles I have seen, their dog would probably shed, she was quite stunned and a bit upset since her husband was allergic to dogs and they got the dog because they believed it would not shed.

In addition, last week we had a young (eight month old) goldendoodle come in who was a rescue and had lived in his new home for about a month. The owners, who had previously had a Golden they loved, were very disappointed by the pup's hyper nature. I emphasized that the dog needed exercise and training since it was at "that" age. I gave them a free pass to our dog park (after the temperament test) where their pup got to play with a young poodle and LOVED it. During the test I noticed that the pup did have a very poodley play style (a kind of jump in for the nip and jump out again) plus the mouthiness of the golden. I hope keeping the pup tired out will work for them.


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## mylissyk

I bet the Golden they loved was a senior that was quiet and calm in their senior years. There are a lot of people who forget or don't expect the puppy energy in the younger dog they adopt/buy after losing a senior dog.


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## BeauShel

I am not even going to get into the doodle debate that has been discussed over and over so well by others but when I read and hear mini and golden in the same sentence. I just cringe. Trying to imagine all the health problems that could come from the breeding and then the health issues throughout the life of the dogs just make me sick.


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## Launi

Just overpriced, backyard bred mutts. The ONLY place to get a mutt is a shelter or rescue.


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## goawaybird

*genetically...*

From a genetic point of view any thoroughbred animal race (and also certain crop plants) will predictably have certain weaknesses. For instance, Dachshund are prone to back ache; Alsatians have been known to develop back and hip problems as a result of degenerative genes. I don't know what the particular issues are with Golden Retrievers, but every thoroughly thoroughbred race is bound to have some.

In cross-breeding dogs one counteracts these issues by remixing the gene pool. But you also shop for some unpredictable attributes.

Of course that is not the drift of this whole thread; all "doodles" that are bred deliberately are of course fashion dogs and very much a matter of taste. While they may be genetically stronger and healthier than their thoroughbred counterparts, this is not why they were crossed. I agree with the general tone of the thread, that if you are looking for a cross or mongrel doggie, go to a shelter or look for a puppy from an "oops" litter. Shelter dogs often have issues that would make them dicey companions for e.g. children (especially if they have been mistreated) so you'll have to weigh up your kindness to animals against your kindness to your own kids. If a shelter dog is young enough though it can usually be taught correctly.


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## tippykayak

goawaybird said:


> From a genetic point of view any thoroughbred animal race (and also certain crop plants) will predictably have certain weaknesses. For instance, Dachshund are prone to back ache; Alsatians have been known to develop back and hip problems as a result of degenerative genes. I don't know what the particular issues are with Golden Retrievers, but every thoroughly thoroughbred race is bound to have some.


The reason a single strain of a species has identifiable issues is that the issue can be paired with the strain. In a larger gene pool, you have a greater variety of issues, each with a lower rate of incidence, not a lower total incidence of issues. e.g., in one hundred Golden Retrievers, you have 10 with hip dysplasia and 10 with an eye problem. In one hundred Golden/Poodle crosses, you have 10 with hip dysplasia, 5 with heart problems, and 5 with eye problems. You have 20 dogs in both groups with hereditary problems.

The advantage for a purebred strain is that you can achieve the predictability that allows you to lower the incidence of problems. Because the selection is artificial (i.e., done by humans) instead of natural (i.e., done by which animals survive to reproduce in the wild), you can have health and the desired characteristics at the same time, which you can't in a naturally selected or continually hybridized group. Dachshunds can hunt badgers in their burrows and live for 14 years, neither of which is an ability of their naturally selected wolf ancestors.



goawaybird said:


> In cross-breeding dogs one counteracts these issues by remixing the gene pool.


Incorrect. In cross-breeding dogs (either between breeds or by outcrossing within a breed), one gets a larger range of phenotypes, good and bad, and can choose from them. You don't get general health improvement simply by "remixing."




goawaybird said:


> Of course that is not the drift of this whole thread; all "doodles" that are bred deliberately are of course fashion dogs and very much a matter of taste.


Some issues are a matter of taste, but breeding unhealthy dogs is an ethical issue, not simply one of preference.



goawaybird said:


> While they may be genetically stronger and healthier than their thoroughbred counterparts, this is not why they were crossed.


It is a myth based on a pop culture understanding of genetics that crossbred animals are generally healthier than purebred animals. Please don't perpetuate the myth.


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## Jessie'sGirl

DH was recently listening to a call in radio show with a behaviorist giving suggestions for certain problem. He doesn't live and breathe dogs like I do, so he was totally oblivious to the golden doodle issue. Anyway, he said he was amazed by the number of callers who had golden doodles and a lot of these were seeking help for anxiety problems with their dogs!


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## tippykayak

Jessie'sGirl said:


> DH was recently listening to a call in radio show with a behaviorist giving suggestions for certain problem. He doesn't live and breathe dogs like I do, so he was totally oblivious to the golden doodle issue. Anyway, he said he was amazed by the number of callers who had golden doodles and a lot of these were seeking help for anxiety problems with their dogs!


My guess is that this trend is part of using badly chosen dogs in the breeding programs. A well-bred Poodle is a stable, loyal, highly intelligent dog, but anxious, unstable Poodles seem to pop up quickly when people breed them carelessly. Since it's well-established that the best examples of the breed are not being used by the vast majority of the Poodle crossers, it's sadly unsurprising to hear of a trend of anxiety in Poodle crosses.

Of course, badly bred labs and Goldens can be anxious as well, so it could easily be coming from those breeds.

Yet another reason to go to breeders who compete with and title their dogs. A dog with severe anxiety would be much harder to take through a CH or CD or even more basic certifications like CCA and CGC. A purebred Golden or Poodle from titled parents gives you a much more predictable chance of having an even-tempered dog.


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## Ninde'Gold

I've only met a handful and all of them were really unstable and kind of crazy.

Plus I really don't think they're cute at all... LOL.


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## Tennyson

I cringe when I see/hear about any "doodles."
Very popular in my area though. It's the upper middle class who want the golden or lab without the shedding. People here pay anywhere from $1500 to $2700 for one of these mutts.
Actually I feel sad for the dogs.


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## Jacques2000

in my opinion the only reason to ever get a golden doodle is if your really allergic to dogs yet in my area there just as or more popular than golden.

although i don't like poodles ether.


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## Wyatt's mommy

We have one in our neighborhood who is adorable and a smart cookie. Even tempered and totally laid back.

Also a member here adopted one who I think is also just as adorable.


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## Pointgold

Jacques2000 said:


> in my opinion the only reason to ever get a golden doodle is if your really allergic to dogs yet in my area there just as or more popular than golden.
> 
> although i don't like poodles ether.


 
They are NOT "hypoallergenic", and they DO shed. A person allergic to dogs will be just as likely to be allergic to a "doodle" as to another breed.


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## goldhaven

I had always heard that the goldendoodle originated from a desire to find a hypo allergenic service dog. That experiment didn't go so well and was eventually discontinued but out of that came the designer breed. 
I just found this link on a golden doodle rescue site about the history of the labradoodle. I found it interesting. 
HISTORY OF THE "LABRADOODLE" - Doodle Rescue Collective Inc.


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## Deb_Bayne

I had a poodle and now I have a golden, would I want this as a combination? Don't know. I've met a few people who have goldendoodles and they just love the temperament and the fact that their fur/hair does not shed, just like poodles don't shed, but they do need more grooming due to the fact their fur/hair does grow.


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## aerolor

Goldendoodles are not hypoalergenic and it is just not true that they don't shed - many do shed and it depends on the type of coat that the puppies have and this will vary from puppy to puppy. Some of the coats are quite difficult to keep and require quite a lot of maintenance. This poodle/retriever cross can produce a highly active large dog which a lot of people find difficult to manage. This "designer" dog (for that is what a godlendoodle is) is variable in type because it is simply another crossbred dog. There are many around that are not what one would think of as a typical goldendoodle. 
Apart from the money and profit reason, why is it necessary to produce yet another cross breed. The golden retriever and the poodle are perfectly good breeds in their own right. 
It is interesting to note that the Australian person who started it all now thinks he may have made a mistake and it has been said he would like to put the lid back onto pandora's box. (or was that the man who created the labradoodle?)

p.s. I have not read all the posts - so maybe repeating what has been said.


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## Pointgold

*Poodles shed*. The hair, for the most part, stays on the dog and weaves into itself, causing "felting". Anyone who has ever seen a matted Poodle or Poodle mix that has not been brushed/combed regularly will know what I am talking about. They need to be shaved down and the felted/matted mess comes off like a jacket.


Additionally, Poodles suffer HD/ED, and a myriad of other genetic issues, just as Goldens do. Crossing the two together does not make them magically disappear. RARELY do "doodle" "breeders" do health clearances, and since ethical breeders of either of the two breeds will not sell to doodle breeders, the chance of healthy, quality dogs being used for crosses is slim. 

When the originator of the "doodle" regrets having done so, it is telling...
Labradoodle inventor regrets what he started | ohmidog!


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## laprincessa

Pointgold said:


> *Poodles shed*. The hair, for the most part, stays on the dog and weaves into itself, causing "felting". Anyone who has ever seen a matted Poodle or Poodle mix that has not been brushed/combed regularly will know what I am talking about. They need to be shaved down and the felted/matted mess comes off like a jacket.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When the originator of the "doodle" regrets having done so, it is telling...
> Labradoodle inventor regrets what he started | ohmidog!


Max's groomer told me about a labradoodle she had to shave and said exactly this, that the coat was in one piece when she was done - both times. The owner told her she obviously didn't know how to groom a labradoodle. :doh:


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## Wagners Mom2

I am not a fan of any "designer" dog. Goldendoodles included. 

Way too many mixed breeds are being euthanized every single day in shelters because of the over population problem. No need to add to that.


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## Charmie

Just a personal opinion, but I'd say most of us here probably got our pup from a responsibly gr breeder, and of course there was importance placed on the fact that it was a golden retriever, right? What if someone preferred the looks of a golden doodle, and found a responsibly golden doodle breeder? I don't see golden doodles in the pound very often- and trust me, I've scoured the local pounds' websites daily for almost half a year before deciding on getting a puppy, and I don't see a person's choice of a golden doodle much different from my choice of a golden retriever.

I, personally, much prefer golden retrievers, but I've heard that golden doodles make very sweet pets. Some people don't suffer allergies in the presence of golden doodles (of course, with more poodle than golden in the mix), and that's another valid reason. Yes, yes, they still shed. All animals do, I believe. I personally shed at least 50 hairs in the shower every time I condition my hair. 

After all, once upon a time, golden retrievers were made by crossbreeding spaniels to something or other, right? There's the argument that the breeding was done to do a job, but hey... I'd say the vast majority of users here do not have golden retrievers to accomplish a specific retriever oriented job (although I'm sure plenty do!)

It bothers me when people amount golden doodles to a mutt at the pound. All dogs are equal, I am ALL for rescuing and adopting- it was my first choice, and it was after a long time of careful thinking that I decided otherwise, but some people just want that specific breed (or cross breed) of dog. You don't find a lot of golden doodles at the pound, and sometimes, a good breeder is just the only way to go.


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## AmbikaGR

Charmie said:


> What if someone preferred the looks of a golden doodle, and found a responsibly golden doodle breeder?



Sorry but the fact that someone is breeding Goldendoodles is a definition of an irresponsible breeder. There is no valid reason to do so. Period. :no:


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## LifeOfRiley

Pointgold said:


> They are NOT "hypoallergenic", and they DO shed. A person allergic to dogs will be just as likely to be allergic to a "doodle" as to another breed.


 
Not necessarily.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not a fan of doodles, or those who breed them. And I do believe that the claims of them being hypoallergenic and non-shedding are grossly overstated, at best.

But that said, I do know of one case (rare though it may be) of a severely allergic person who has a doodle with no problems, whatsoever. One of mom's co-workers is horribly allergic to dogs. She'd always wanted a dog, but never thought she'd be able to have one. She now has a Goldendoodle. He sleeps in the bed with them and everything and she has no problem with her allergies. Like I said, it may not be a common thing, but it obviously works for some people.


----------



## 3 goldens

i AM SURE i RESPONDED TO THIS WHEN IT FIRST WAS POSTED, BUT i JUST CAN'T GO THRU LOOKING FOR MY RESPONSE. bUT MY OPINION HAS ALWASY BEEN THE SAME.

I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF THESE "DESIGNER DOGS." BUT AS SOMEONE ELSE POINTED OUT--OUR BELOVEE GOLDENS CAME ABOUT BECAUSE SOMEBODEY MANY YEARS AGO MADE A "DESIGNER DOG BY BREEDING THE RETRIEVER AND SPANIEL. WE WOULD NOT GOLDENS TODAY HAD THAT NOT OCCURED.

AND AT LEAST THEY ARE BOTH SPORTING DOGS, THO POODLES ARE NOT CLASSIFIED THAT WAY. I REMEMBER I WAS ASTONDED TO FIND OUT POODLES HAD ACTUALLY BEEN HUNTING DOGS--I MEAN, THOSE FUU FUU HAIR CUTS, BOWS, PAINTED NAILS, ETC. AT LEAST IN THIS CASE THEY ARE BREEDING "LIKE DOGS."

WHEN THEY START MIXING PUGS AND BEAGLES TO GET "PUBGGLES," PEKES AND POODELS FOR PEKEA POOS, ETC, (ONLY ONE I HAVE SEEN WAS UGLY AS SIN) 

JUST KEEP EACH BREED TO ITSELF...THO I AM SURE GLAD THE GUY THAT STARTED THE GOLDEN RETRIEVES WAS NOT TOLD THIS.


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## LifeOfRiley

Charmie said:


> *You don't find a lot of golden doodles at the pound,* and sometimes, a good breeder is just the only way to go.


 
That seems to be true. And it's another thing that makes me wonder about the idea of them being easier to live with for those with severe allergies. If they didn't live up to the hype, so to speak, you'd think there would be an awful lot of doodles showing up in shelters and/or rescues springing up like crazy. From what I've noticed, anyway, you really don't see that.


----------



## tippykayak

Charmie said:


> Just a personal opinion, but I'd say most of us here probably got our pup from a responsibly gr breeder, and of course there was importance placed on the fact that it was a golden retriever, right? What if someone preferred the looks of a golden doodle, and found a responsibly golden doodle breeder?


By definition, that's impossible. Responsible breeders don't violate the rules of both of their breed clubs, and they also don't do F1 outcrosses for every breeding because it throws predictability out the window. So there is no such thing as "a responsible golden doodle breeder."



Charmie said:


> After all, once upon a time, golden retrievers were made by crossbreeding spaniels to something or other, right? There's the argument that the breeding was done to do a job, but hey... I'd say the vast majority of users here do not have golden retrievers to accomplish a specific retriever oriented job (although I'm sure plenty do!)


The big difference, and I believe it was explained earlier in this thread, but I'll go for it again, is that when you create a breed, you outcross with other breeds, but then you stop and you try to create a dog that breeds true from generation to generation. That allows you to create the mix of characteristics you want, and then you get the predictability of a purebred strain so you can work on health, longevity, and other characteristics you want for the breed.

When you cross two distinct breeds, that predictability goes out the window. The offspring don't breed true to a type. They're a grab bag of characteristics from the parents. There's too much variability for you to have the coat that you want (which is half the point of a poodle cross, right?), the temperament you want, the health you want, etc. The pups are going to show up with health problems from both breeds, and because you're not breeding a purebred strain, you can't even begin to control them.



Charmie said:


> It bothers me when people amount golden doodles to a mutt at the pound. All dogs are equal, I am ALL for rescuing and adopting- it was my first choice, and it was after a long time of careful thinking that I decided otherwise, but some people just want that specific breed (or cross breed) of dog. You don't find a lot of golden doodles at the pound, and sometimes, a good breeder is just the only way to go.


I love all dogs because they don't choose their parentage, but doodles are advertised inaccurately. The claim that they are _always_ sold on is that they are healthier than either Goldens or Poodles, and that they are "hypoallergenic." Neither of those things is true, and that's why people get upset. Hybridizing dogs is a big roll of the genetic dice, and when you do it to create a breed, you use hybridizing to pull in the characteristics that you want, and then you stop. Anybody who's doing first generation hybrid crosses over and over isn't creating a "designer" dog. They're perpetuating a fad, and the dogs are the ones who suffer when they come out with poor health or with a Retriever coat that leads them to be given up by owners who were expecting a "hypoallergenic" dog.

The real designer dogs are the purebred dogs. Each was designed for a specific purpose. When you cross and recross two breeds, you lose the ability to design, and instead you get a grab bag of random stuff from both breeds (and occasionally you turn on genes that don't typically express in either of the original breeds). So no, you can't be a "good breeder" and sell F1 Golden/Poodle crosses. Good breeders control painstakingly for health and temperament, and you can't do it when you cross breeds for each litter.

Don't get confused that a tool (hybridizing) that's used in the creation of a breed is the same thing as hybridizing for each and every litter.


----------



## tippykayak

LifeOfRiley said:


> That seems to be true. And it's another thing that makes me wonder about the idea of them being easier to live with for those with severe allergies. If they didn't live up to the hype, so to speak, you'd think there would be an awful lot of doodles showing up in shelters and/or rescues springing up like crazy. From what I've noticed, anyway, you really don't see that.


They do show up quite a bit, but you don't see them listed because they're easy to adopt back out to a family who wants a "designer" dog on the cheap. What you see in the pound isn't reflective of what comes in but rather of what doesn't go back out so easily.


----------



## tippykayak

LifeOfRiley said:


> Not necessarily.
> Don't get me wrong - I'm not a fan of doodles, or those who breed them. And I do believe that the claims of them being hypoallergenic and non-shedding are grossly overstated, at best.
> 
> But that said, I do know of one case (rare though it may be) of a severely allergic person who has a doodle with no problems, whatsoever. One of mom's co-workers is horribly allergic to dogs. She'd always wanted a dog, but never thought she'd be able to have one. She now has a Goldendoodle. He sleeps in the bed with them and everything and she has no problem with her allergies. Like I said, it may not be a common thing, but it obviously works for some people.


About a quarter of Poodle/Golden crosses will come out with a Poodle coat. Some people seem a lot less allergic to Poodles. I'm not sure if it has something to do with the different coat type and the amount of dander that ends up in the air (after all, it's the dander, not the fur that causes allergies). 

So about 1/4 of the time, a Poodle/Golden cross will have that Poodle coat and the people won't experience their allergies. What happens to the other 3/4, you ask?

Well, for example, my friend has a Lab/Poodle because her neighbor paid $3000 to have a "hypoallergenic Labradoodle" shipped to her from California. The dog arrived and immediately set the lady's allergies on fire. She gave her to my friend in desperation, and now it's 8 years later. This dog's coat is 90% like a lab's coat. She's a sweet girl, but she's neurotic and has a heart murmur.

That's the real story of these crossbred dogs. Some end up with the desired characteristics from that grab bag. They're cute, they have Poodle coats, and they're healthy. Some end up with the undesired ones. That's why you can't sell crossbred dogs and be a responsible breeder. 3/4 of your litter isn't going to come out as advertised.


----------



## Mosby's Mom

I haven't read this thread the whole way through (just more recent posts), but I figured I'd share my story:

So at the training club we take Mo to, there is a woman and her daughter that breed and show the nicest, most amazing standard poodles I've ever met. There is also a woman with a golden-doodle. One day, the two got to talking (and I was there to over hear)....

The poodle breeder asked the woman why she decided on a golden-doodle. The woman said she wanted a dog that didn't shed. Poodle breeder informed the woman that poodles do indeed shed, although less than Goldens. Poodle breeder asked why she didn't just get a PURE BRED poodle if she wanted a dog that sheds less. The woman said that what she was hoping to get is a poodle coat with a golden temperment. Poodle breeder asked the woman if that is what she got. The woman looked insanely embaressed, and admitted "not really".


----------



## LifeOfRiley

tippykayak said:


> They do show up quite a bit, but you don't see them listed because they're easy to adopt back out to a family who wants a "designer" dog on the cheap. What you see in the pound isn't reflective of what comes in but rather of what doesn't go back out so easily.


 
Ah, that does make sense. Come to think of it, you don't see a lot of multi-poos, yorkie-poos or any other mix that comes with a cute designer label in pounds, either. They're probably lucky enough to benefit from the same quick turnaround. 



tippykayak said:


> About a quarter of Poodle/Golden crosses will come out with a Poodle coat. Some people seem a lot less allergic to Poodles. I'm not sure if it has something to do with the different coat type and the amount of dander that ends up in the air (after all, it's the dander, not the fur that causes allergies).
> 
> So about 1/4 of the time, a Poodle/Golden cross will have that Poodle coat and the people won't experience their allergies. What happens to the other 3/4, you ask?
> 
> Well, for example, my friend has a Lab/Poodle because her neighbor paid $3000 to have a "hypoallergenic Labradoodle" shipped to her from California. The dog arrived and immediately set the lady's allergies on fire. She gave her to my friend in desperation, and now it's 8 years later. This dog's coat is 90% like a lab's coat. She's a sweet girl, but she's neurotic and has a heart murmur.
> 
> That's the real story of these crossbred dogs. Some end up with the desired characteristics from that grab bag. They're cute, they have Poodle coats, and they're healthy. Some end up with the undesired ones. That's why you can't sell crossbred dogs and be a responsible breeder. 3/4 of your litter isn't going to come out as advertised.


I'm glad your friend was able to take her. Like you mentioned in the other post, it's not their fault that they've already been born. They deserve good, loving homes too.

I don't know if the one mom's co-worker has is a first generation or not. I think he might be a second generation. I can't remember for sure, but I think I remember her mentioning that when she got him. I don't know how much difference it would make, if any. He does have the poodle coat. 
If their breeder is working toward some kind of standard and level of predictability, I guess they should get at least _some_ credit for that.


----------



## tippykayak

LifeOfRiley said:


> If their breeder is working toward some kind of standard and level of predictability, I guess they should get at least _some_ credit for that.


I know of one program (Australian Labradoodle) which seems to be moving in this direction. I don't really see the point, since the dog they say they're working on is essentially a well-bred Poodle, but I think they at least have a defensible position.

However, that's not with Goldens, and the vast, vast majority of breeders producing Poodle crosses are simply doing first generation. Even second and third generation crosses still wouldn't breed true, though. It takes years of concerted effort and planning to create a true breed, and I guess I don't see what niche they'd be trying to fill, even if they actually did it properly.

So, for now, I think it's safe to say that nobody's responsibly breeding Golden/Poodle crosses. Anybody who was would understand that they're controverting both breeds' club recommendations, and that person would have to have a very long-term plan for what breed he or she was trying to create.


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## tippykayak

I've said it before and I'll keep repeating myself: if you want a stylish, smart, loyal water retriever with a Poodle coat, you want a well-bred Poodle. You can give it whatever non-froofy haircut you want.


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## Wyatt's mommy

My neice works for the humane society in our area and she has not come across a labradoodle or goldendoodle in the last 10 years she has worked there. However she has had lots of goldens and labs, which get adopted or go to rescues as soon as they come in.


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## solinvictus

"What if someone preferred the looks of a golden doodle, and found a responsibly golden doodle breeder?"

Responsibly golden doodle breeder doesn't exist.


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## goldhaven

I don't think that there are that many of them around. I don't see them that often at the park or dog park and my vet doesn't see many of them either. Maybe the fad is fading. I did find a link to a labradoodle rescue which surprised me. 

This thread has me thinking, how would a breeder stop a family from using one of their puppies to cross breed? You don't need a full registration for cross breeding. Even if you have a spay/neuter contract, what happens if the family moves and you don't know where they are? Can/would you take a dog back if you found out that it was being used to cross breed? How would you find out?


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## Megora

Mosby's Mom said:


> I haven't read this thread the whole way through (just more recent posts), but I figured I'd share my story:
> 
> So at the training club we take Mo to, there is a woman and her daughter that breed and show the nicest, most amazing standard poodles I've ever met. There is also a woman with a golden-doodle. One day, the two got to talking (and I was there to over hear)....
> 
> The poodle breeder asked the woman why she decided on a golden-doodle. The woman said she wanted a dog that didn't shed. Poodle breeder informed the woman that poodles do indeed shed, although less than Goldens. Poodle breeder asked why she didn't just get a PURE BRED poodle if she wanted a dog that sheds less. The woman said that what she was hoping to get is a poodle coat with a golden temperment. Poodle breeder asked the woman if that is what she got. The woman looked insanely embaressed, and admitted "not really".


^ This is classic<:

The golden doodles that I've met were adopted from shelters. 



> I've said it before and I'll keep repeating myself: if you want a stylish, smart, loyal water retriever with a Poodle coat, you want a well-bred Poodle. You can give it whatever non-froofy haircut you want.


Tippy, poodles are not for your average dog owners though.


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## LifeOfRiley

tippykayak said:


> I've said it before and I'll keep repeating myself: if you want a stylish, smart, loyal water retriever with a Poodle coat, you want a well-bred Poodle. You can give it whatever non-froofy haircut you want.


Exactly! I've never really understood the whole point of doodles, either. Any quality that doodles are supposed to have, you can get with a well-bred poodle.
I wonder if temperament is the big issue? I've heard that even very well-bred poodles aren't necessarily great with kids. I don't know. I've only known one standard poodle and she was a wonderful dog. Couldn't ask for a better temperament. But I've heard people say that about poodles, so maybe they go for doodles, hoping that the lab or golden temperament will win out...?
It did with the one who belongs to mom's co-worker. He's just a big lovebug. The goldendoodle our neighbor has... not so much. We've recently found out that he's a big sweetie once he gets to know you and IF he decides that you're okay. But until then, he's really not a friendly dog.


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## tippykayak

Megora said:


> Tippy, poodles are not for your average dog owners though.


Can you expand on why not? Specifically on how a Golden is the right dog for an average owner but a Poodle isn't?


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## Wyatt's mommy

We have a few labradoodle breeders in our area. That's where our neighbor got theirs. Who is adorable btw. So I know they are in our area. 
Of course they aren't going to go over well on a golden retriever forum. To each their own.


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## Charmie

tippykayak said:


> Don't get confused that a tool (hybridizing) that's used in the creation of a breed is the same thing as hybridizing for each and every litter.


Is it possible at all for the case to be that there aren't enough doodle breeders/not a standard for hybridizing a breed so they instead cross breed for each litter?

And is it still considered irresponsible if the poodle and golden breeding had impeccable health records and consistently produced well tempered doodle babies? I'm positive there's at least a few breeders out there who are like this, though I agree that there are far more who do not look for well tempered puppies or health. 

That aside, thank you for your very informative post. I didn't read through the whole thread so I'm glad you repeated yourself for me! I was afraid to read something totally angry at my post, but it was nothing like that !


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## Megora

tippykayak said:


> Can you expand on why not? Specifically on how a Golden is the right dog for an average owner but a Poodle isn't?


The standard poodles I've met (plus I have a neighbor who owns four) are quite a bit higher energy than goldens. They have a lot more energy to burn. They also do not always have the same desire to please that goldens do. They want to please their owners, yes, but the ones I've met tend to be a bit more independant. They also require more care as far as grooming. That's just for starters. 



Charmie said:


> And is it still considered irresponsible if the poodle and golden breeding had impeccable health records and consistently produced well tempered doodle babies?


How do those breeders get their hands on well-bred goldens and poodles with impeccable health records? Without lying and cheating to get their hands on puppies from legitimate breeders?


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## tippykayak

Charmie said:


> Is it possible at all for the case to be that there aren't enough doodle breeders/not a standard for hybridizing a breed so they instead cross breed for each litter?


Not really. I don't see how you get fewer puppies by actually developing a breed. You'd have crosses up front to sell, and then as you went, you'd have the puppies you didn't make breeding stock from the later litters to sell. I really think they keep hybridizing because it fits the "designer" fad

There isn't a standard because 99% of them don't seem interested in a new breed. They're just selling dogs for profit, and **** the consequences to the dogs.



Charmie said:


> And is it still considered irresponsible if the poodle and golden breeding had impeccable health records and consistently produced well tempered doodle babies? I'm positive there's at least a few breeders out there who are like this, though I agree that there are far more who do not look for well tempered puppies or health.


I still wouldn't consider it responsible. You can't be truly consistent if you're hybridizing each litter. The two are mutually exclusive. It's _better_ to use Poodles and Goldens with clearances, but it still doesn't pass the ethical test in my book. They're discouraged by the breed clubs precisely because it's not responsible. You don't have enough control of health, temperament, and type.



Charmie said:


> That aside, thank you for your very informative post. I didn't read through the whole thread so I'm glad you repeated yourself for me! I was afraid to read something totally angry at my post, but it was nothing like that !


You're welcome! Just remember that when people do get angry, it's because they see greedy profiteers playing fast and loose with dogs' health and people's hearts.


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## tippykayak

Megora said:


> The standard poodles I've met (plus I have a neighbor who owns four) are quite a bit higher energy than goldens. They have a lot more energy to burn. They also do not always have the same desire to please that goldens do. They want to please their owners, yes, but the ones I've met tend to be a bit more independant. They also require more care as far as grooming. That's just for starters.


Fair enough. Of course, none of these problems are solved by crossing with a Golden (I know you know that, but it's worth saying anyway). I'm not sure the energy and grooming needs make them less of a good fit for a family than a Golden, though. All of those differences seem pretty workable if having the Poodle coat is important to you.


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## Megora

tippykayak said:


> I'm not sure the energy and grooming needs make them less of a good fit for a family than a Golden, though.


If you've ever met and trained with people who own poodles, there's no comparision between the two breeds as far as grooming and energy. It's not just a matter of clipping all the fur off and ignoring the other stuff. It has to be groomed, otherwise it gets pretty gross.

If I liked the "look" of labradoodles (for example) and had money to burn - I would most definitely get one of these guys. 

















^ These are purebreds with a solid breed standard.


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## Pointgold

LifeOfRiley said:


> Not necessarily.
> Don't get me wrong - I'm not a fan of doodles, or those who breed them. And I do believe that the claims of them being hypoallergenic and non-shedding are grossly overstated, at best.
> 
> But that said, I do know of one case (rare though it may be) of a severely allergic person who has a doodle with no problems, whatsoever. One of mom's co-workers is horribly allergic to dogs. She'd always wanted a dog, but never thought she'd be able to have one. She now has a Goldendoodle. He sleeps in the bed with them and everything and she has no problem with her allergies. Like I said, it may not be a common thing, but it obviously works for some people.


Why Are People Allergic to Dogs and What Makes a Dog Hypoallergenic? - Kirkwood, MO Patch


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## Pointgold

Charmie said:


> Is it possible at all for the case to be that there aren't enough doodle breeders/not a standard for hybridizing a breed so they instead cross breed for each litter?
> 
> And is it still considered irresponsible if the poodle and golden breeding had impeccable health records and consistently produced well tempered doodle babies? I'm positive there's at least a few breeders out there who are like this, though I agree that there are far more who do not look for well tempered puppies or health.
> 
> That aside, thank you for your very informative post. I didn't read through the whole thread so I'm glad you repeated yourself for me! I was afraid to read something totally angry at my post, but it was nothing like that !


 
They are not "hybrids". And, as they don't breed true, it would be extremely difficult to write and adhere to a standard.


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## Pointgold

Megora said:


> If you've ever met and trained with people who own poodles, there's no comparision between the two breeds as far as grooming and energy. It's not just a matter of clipping all the fur off and ignoring the other stuff. It has to be groomed, otherwise it gets pretty gross.
> 
> If I liked the "look" of labradoodles (for example) and had money to burn - I would most definitely get one of these guys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^ These are purebreds with a solid breed standard.


 
I have shown a number of Spinone, including a 14 mo old bitch to the first Award of Merit at Westminster... they are delightful, but actually a problem for those who are allergic because A. they shed, and B. they drool buckets (and dog saliva is an allergen carrier).


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## laprincessa

goldhaven said:


> I don't think that there are that many of them around. I don't see them that often at the park or dog park and my vet doesn't see many of them either. Maybe the fad is fading. I did find a link to a labradoodle rescue which surprised me.
> 
> This thread has me thinking, how would a breeder stop a family from using one of their puppies to cross breed? You don't need a full registration for cross breeding. Even if you have a spay/neuter contract, what happens if the family moves and you don't know where they are? Can/would you take a dog back if you found out that it was being used to cross breed? How would you find out?


I'd be willing to bet that a very large percentage of family pets didn't come with a contract, but were purchased through newspaper ads, or a sign on a bulletin board somewhere. Those are the dogs, I think, that are being used to produce goldendoodles and all the other doodles. 
These dogs are not coming from people who know an OFA from an offal.


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## Deber

In my years with a newer breed I have found that I can' honestly say I like or don't like a breed, but have strong feelings on the breeding done by so many for profit with no consideration to the future of whatever breed you love. Breeds were developed for a reason and in the past usually on large estates where pups could be trained and watched for many generations to see if the type was correct and the health and desire to do the work specified was there and instinctual in their results. Now it seems to be more for profit in many BY and small breeders. I wouldn't have so much problems with this if each thought of the pup they release was a step towards a goal for the breed, to better it.

New breeds have always been there, bred for many reasons or looks, but when a breed begins there are many pitfalls, many that cannot breed to type and reproduce themselves in the way the breeder intended. It takes years and years to overcome and this not to count getting ears up or down, tails and spine correct, legs that move easily in their sockets. Some breeders forget that this is a new breed they are working on and each pup has their name on it and represents their breeding programs. Humans are a greedy race, where time and dollars outweigh the future end results. This makes me so sad.

I have no problems with newer breeds, but have LOTS of problems with breeding and not holding your pups to see growth, lifespan, health before allowing the public to have. Again it takes years to make a breed true, and seems not many are willing to hold pups and spay/neuter before selling these culls and holding the best to watch your hard work evolve. A spay and neuter contract is only as good as the trust in the people getting the dog is trustworthy. Most arent.


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## tippykayak

Deber, that's really well put. I hadn't thought about the development of a breed that way: how important it is to neuter a culled dog before selling it, how the vast majority of the dogs need to stay with on the property with the person developing the breed, and how much patience it takes.

I do know that Tweedmouth's notes on developing the Golden were extensive and that it took years. Some breeds, like the Golden, were developed by incredibly wealthy people who had leisure, resources, and decades to put into the project. I'm very thankful that he left us with such a wonderful breed, but it would really take an extraordinary level of passion and availability of resources to do something like that now.


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## goldhaven

tippykayak said:


> Deber, that's really well put. I hadn't thought about the development of a breed that way: how important it is to neuter a culled dog before selling it, how the vast majority of the dogs need to stay with on the property with the person developing the breed, and how much patience it takes.
> 
> *I do know that Tweedmouth's notes on developing the Golden were extensive and that it took years. Some breeds, like the Golden, were developed by incredibly wealthy people who had leisure, resources, and decades to put into the project. I'm very thankful that he left us with such a wonderful breed, but it would really take an extraordinary level of passion and availability of resources to do something like that now*.


I would love to see those notes if you have them available.

Here is a link to the story of Wally Conron, the creator of the labradoodle. While there aren't extensive notes, he does admit to the breeding not being successful to the purpose. 
WALLY CONRON- MY STORY-I DESIGNED A DOG - Doodle Rescue Collective Inc.


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## tippykayak

goldhaven said:


> I would love to see those notes if you have them available.


I don't know how you get a copy of the actual studbook in question, but it's referred to in many articles about the original of the Golden Retriever. His family released it in 1952, but I don't know if it's online anywhere.

Articles like this one give a good overview.


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## Deber

Guess what I am saying, is that a Doodle could wind up in the future to fit well in our breeds, it could eventually be a breed that sheds less but carries the golden traits we love. In the more mobile world in which we find ourselves, this could fit in well with changing lifestyles, but the patience, the heartbreak of the culls who didn't make the grade, the go forward only to fail and must start over because of health concerns, well this is a horribly tough job for a special few. The problem is that breeds are being put together and pups sold without the years to see if health is maintained and each generation can breed true to the dog you are wanting. People buy because of trend and no thought put to the 12 yrs you will have this dog as a member of your family to love and cherish. 

Again, bet some Doodles are just the cutest and sweetest thing and could make wonderful pets, but what of the future? Can it withstand the test of time to prove worthy to stand beside other established breeds? Don't know but hope there are people out there with the time, money and patience to keep trying until you can put the breed in FSS for AKC consideration knowing you have a solid, healthy dog.

Too many breeds are in trouble now and many wonderful heads are being scratched trying to figure out how to help them. The answer is not clear yet but I have hope that soon science and these wonderful dedicated people keep working on it and find success. I applaude the ones who are hardy enough to attempt this and donate a lifetime making it happen.


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## Max's Dad

Apparently the hypoallergenic quality of these hybrid dogs is a myth. http:///www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48017583/ns/health-allergies_and_asthma/#.T-4w7aA5STA

"The allergy-friendly dog may be little more than wishful thinking, a new study of Labradoodles and other allegedly hypoallergenic breeds suggests."


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## tippykayak

Max's Dad said:


> Apparently the hypoallergenic quality of these hybrid dogs is a myth. http:///www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48017583/ns/health-allergies_and_asthma/#.T-4w7aA5STA
> 
> "The allergy-friendly dog may be little more than wishful thinking, a new study of Labradoodles and other allegedly hypoallergenic breeds suggests."


Given that people are allergic to dander, not shed fur, I'm not the slightest bit surprised to hear that. Good to know somebody's actually testing these issues in a controlled fashion.

PS - $16,000 for a "hypoallergenic" doodle? Calling these people profiteers is an understatement.


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## BKLD

I met a Goldendoodle at the dog park the other day. Very sweet guy, but homely in my opinion. I like Goldens, and I like Poodles, but a mix of the two just gives you an odd looking dog most of the time. 

Anyways, as an old Golden lover and a new Poodle lover, the breeding of the two is an abomination to me. It's not the dogs themselves that are the problem, I like the dogs well enough, but rather the ignorant and/or unscrupulous breeders. I think most of us agree with that statement.


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## lgnutah

Some of them sortof remind me of Airedales. Some friends of ours got one and it is very small (they said one parent was a miniature poodle?!). It seemed a nice enough dog.


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## channy2409

The only reason why people breed these 2 days is because its the 'it' gog and the greedy breeders can charge a fortune!


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## ggdenny

I've met a few Golden-Doodles and love them very much. I don't hold breeding, genetic or business practices against them.


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## Megora

ggdenny said:


> I've met a few Golden-Doodles and love them very much. I don't hold breeding, genetic or business practices against them.


I don't think people should hold any mutt responsible for the stupidity of the backyard breeders and puppy mills that produced them. 

For as long as I've been alive, people have been breeding poodles with every dog breed possible. And a majority of these dogs end up in shelters, or their offspring do. 

The only difference as far as the labradoodles and goldendoodles, as opposed to the cockapoos, schoodles, etc is the crowd of people who are getting all fad-happy about them and trying to legitimize them.


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## Tayla's Mom

Some of them are cute funny dogs. My main problem is we don't need more mixed breed dogs from deliberate breeding and calling them a designer dog and getting designer prices for them. If you want a purebreed dog, go to a legitimate breeder or a rescue group for that breed. If you don't care, please go to a shelter. Don't buy a designer breed of any kind. Like puppy mills it just perpetuates something that should not be done.


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## SeaGreen528

As a pet groomer, all I have to say is that there are barely any golden doodle owners who really know how to take care of their dogs. In order for their coats to stay in good condition, the owner needs to do A LOT of brushing everyday. If they skimp at all, they of course bring the dog to the groomer and ask for us to do it for them. What they don't understand is that it takes a ton of effort, sweat, and sometimes pain to both groomer and dog to get the matts out in an hour that had been building up for weeks!


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## Max's Dad

Saw a neighbor's labradoodle for the first time yesterday. Kind of odd looking--long legs. Very energetic. Plus they told me it sheds!


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## tippykayak

SeaGreen528 said:


> As a pet groomer, all I have to say is that there are barely any golden doodle owners who really know how to take care of their dogs. In order for their coats to stay in good condition, the owner needs to do A LOT of brushing everyday. If they skimp at all, they of course bring the dog to the groomer and ask for us to do it for them. What they don't understand is that it takes a ton of effort, sweat, and sometimes pain to both groomer and dog to get the matts out in an hour that had been building up for weeks!


I'm not surprised by this at all. Both Golden and Poodle coats require regular maintenance and both mat if not properly maintained. Golden/Poodle mixes are going to have a whole range of different coat types ranging from almost Golden to almost Poodle. The potential for mats on some of those poor dogs must be incredible. Can you imagine a dog with the curly mats of a Poodle mixed in with the undercoat mats of a Golden? Well, you can, since you're a groomer, but I shudder to think.

I also wonder if there's some overlap between people who haven't done their homework and people who pick a Golden/Poodle mix. If you read up on Goldens and Poodles at all, you'd learn that their respective breed clubs have very good reasons for discouraging the sale of first generation Poodle/Golden crosses. If you're light on the research there, perhaps you were also light on the research about the coat care those breeds need. Add into that the fact that so many Golden/Poodle mix breeders outright lie about how the coats come out, and you've got a recipe for dirty, matted coats.


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## K-Flash

Oh dear...I know this is a horribly old thread, so I apologize for posting. I do have something to add...as an owner of 2 purebred Golden Retrievers (let me capitalize that)...one past, and now one present...I think it's an absolute abomination against the Golden Retriever breed, and a slap in the face to all Golden Retriever breeders who breed to *BETTER THE GOLDEN RETRIEVER BREED*. Having grown up, with poodles (miniatures), I have nothing but disdain for that breed, and make no bones about it...if all the poodles of the world disappeared, I'd be all the more happy. Poodles + Golden Retrievers = One Colossal Mess!!!!! Sorry to sound hostile, but I get my knickers in a knot, when I read about all the F1 or F2 gen's ("Goldendoodles") being sold for ALOT more money, than a true bonafide Golden Retriever sells for. AND! why cross the DNA of a very individual (owner) dog, with a very social breed dog??? Makes no sense to me. People who buy goldendoodles are uneducated, and unappreciative...they just want a "hypo-allergenic" dog...which doesn't exist.


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## Deber

K-Flash, think you have over-blown this a bit. What we call designer dogs have always been around, a breed has always been in the works of development for a type of need or work that needed to be done. It goes back to the earliest beginnings, and think we here all feel that established breeds should remain so unless there proves a need, but bashing poodles for their breeding stock in other breeds, to me, is a bit much. Poodles (standard) are one of the most intelligent breeds. When not seen in the ring and rather in the fields, they learn very quickly, have good common instinct and I can see when I watch a large poodle hit the water how in the past they were used for a multitude of reasons needed by man. Poodles got the reputations of being a very smart dog and the earliest list by AKC put them at the top along with German Shephards. We have also stated that most people are pretty dumb and go with the flow. I too am not a fan of smaller poodles and carry a scar from one at a show. To me, they are not the examples of their ancestors, but rather bred down versions, not worked and turned into a barking, sometimes biting little mess, but the thought continues that proclaims their superior intelligence. We now know that there are other breeds smarter, but the thought of brilliance continues. So mixing a less smart dog with a poodle seems smart - Right???? Not always and in most cases it is a dismal failure at best. The genes may not fall right and you might end up with a dumb poodle/dasch. mix or a smart pug with a long snout and kinky butt hair?? Haaa! Envision that if you can! Someday perhaps science will give us a way to turn on/off genes so that the outcome is what we wished for and who knows, we might end up with a very smart golden that doesn't shed! The error said by many is that it is being done for profit only. There is not thought for need, for seeing if the offspring can breed to type and if the qualities you were breeding for are sound and can be passed to his/her future generations. For whatever reasons we humans seem to feel a great need to have the "in" thing, that new iphone, the car that talks to you as you drive. We will eagerly pay our hard earned money to set ourselves apart,,,to be Better than our neighbors. This follows to our pets. Each year we all hear of new mixes, but what most don't know is that each year many of these new breeds fall apart because the work was never done and the breed failed to thrive in a way it should. I personally am not a fan of some of the mixes that are being bred now, but still back wholeheartedly the attempt to change a breed to something better and result in a healthy, long lived pet. I applaude the ones who struggle with this in face of all the negativity. I have seen some of the poodle (standard) mixes with some of our water retrieving dogs who were held and trained to their fullest and they are a wonder to behold, but talk to the owners and they will sadly tell you of their failures, of their heartbreak and the hurt of being called on by their breed for their attempts.
Just feel it is back to we humans that are in fault in this. We breed, we gather monies, we don't look at our generations, we are good at promoting and selling our babes with no detail of what they will become. It is not the dogs, nor the mixing of breeds to me at fault, it is an evil we humans have done and only we can stop. Believe we have many new breeds that could be a good step to the future, but only time and dedication will tell.


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## Bentleysmom

Today in puppy class I saw my 1st ever Goldendoodle, no disrespect to the owner of that dog but, no thank you! I'll stick with my lovable, highly intelligent, easily trainable GR's


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## Golden4Life

So to add to this, I am totally against 'designer mutts.' Purebred dogs are that because their offspring are that breed. What do you get when you breed a goldendoodle to another? Is the offspring going to look the same? Probably not. I have seen a GD that looked like a poodle except for the golden tail. Ick! There are so many 'designer mutts' out there. It is crazy in my opinion.


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## Tayla's Mom

K-Flash said:


> Oh dear...I know this is a horribly old thread, so I apologize for posting. I do have something to add...as an owner of 2 purebred Golden Retrievers (let me capitalize that)...one past, and now one present...I think it's an absolute abomination against the Golden Retriever breed, and a slap in the face to all Golden Retriever breeders who breed to *BETTER THE GOLDEN RETRIEVER BREED*. Having grown up, with poodles (miniatures), I have nothing but disdain for that breed, and make no bones about it...if all the poodles of the world disappeared, I'd be all the more happy. Poodles + Golden Retrievers = One Colossal Mess!!!!! Sorry to sound hostile, but I get my knickers in a knot, when I read about all the F1 or F2 gen's ("Goldendoodles") being sold for ALOT more money, than a true bonafide Golden Retriever sells for. AND! why cross the DNA of a very individual (owner) dog, with a very social breed dog??? Makes no sense to me. People who buy goldendoodles are uneducated, and unappreciative...they just want a "hypo-allergenic" dog...which doesn't exist.


First let me say, as I believe I have posted earlier in this, that I'm not a fan of designer dogs. Heck I don't even do designer clothes, but WOW the hostility against the poodle breed is a little over the top. I had a toy poodle growing up and she was an incredible little dog. I think the standards are very capable in a multitude of sports and are very smart and trainable dogs. My heart lies with Goldens first and Aussies second, but the poodle breed has many great atributes.


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