# Entered for AKC Rally Excellent!



## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Well, next weekend will be my debut with Maddie in the AKC Rally Excellent class. I'll also be showing Merlin (the Corgi) in Jr.Showmanship on Saturday...wish us luck! I hope all goes well. Today we got the Judging program and its 8 o'clock A.M. SHARP with Merlin on Saturday. And around 10:15 or so with Maddie, on Sunday. A busy weekend, and hopefully we do good, we have 5 in our class! 

:wavey:


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Good luck, Caryn! Are you going to the Specialty on Friday at Winnegamie?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Good luck! Practice those off-set figure eights! They're hard! Oh - and I think the rules have changed that you now must show in Rally on a 6' leash, so make sure your leash is long enough. (I bring this us b/c I always show in obedience on a 3' leash and will have to get something now to use for Rally.)

Have FUN!


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Good Luck Caryn - Remember to Smile!!
Have fun Miss Maddie!!
When you honor - dont let your attention fall away from Maddie...Ive only seen a couple dogs fail the honor...but when they did it was becuase the handler was watching the dog on the course not their own dog...
Good luck with the Merlin the Corgi too!!


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Hey thanks guys!! 
I have an edit though, I'm sooo used to looking at the Advanced classes, and my brain forgets that we're moved out up! LOL!! So ne way..We are in EXCELLENT lol...jeeze...and there are actually 3 dogs in the class, and our class starts about 9:15. Ok now that I've said that, thanks guys for the info, I'll keep that in mind. Anything else I should know? Besides of course having FUN, and smiling and those other things!!??

Thanks again for the support I really appreciate, I'm hoping for a qualifying score and maybe even a placement...too early to tell! I'll be training my brain for both of them this week!  And of course the dog, I just have to keep the 2 venues apart! lol


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> Good luck, Caryn! Are you going to the Specialty on Friday at Winnegamie?


Sorry Linda, I missed your post, no sadly we aren't with the gas prices and school on Friday...we can't go...so no more specialties this year...I have to wait til' next year, but that may be our debut in Obedience Novice A class...so a little hard work goes along way!  (Some of you may understand that!)


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## 4rdogs (Dec 22, 2007)

Good Luck.. 
Have fun
Dog's do not fail if they don't do the honor .. New Rules


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Thanks guys for all the good luck wishes. I'm thinking we'll do pretty good. We've had a WHOLE bunch of training time with a wonderful trainer, I'm thinking she'll do pretty good.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Good Luck and as everyone has said have fun. The only thing I will suggest is what I tell myself everytime I walk in the ring - "Don't forget to BREATH!". Most times easier said.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> Good Luck and as everyone has said have fun. The only thing I will suggest is what I tell myself everytime I walk in the ring - "Don't forget to BREATH!". Most times easier said.


Yes Hank you are right...sometimes I wonder if I do actually breathe? LOL..I think this time I'll have my dad *try* to tape it...depending on how packed the building is at, at 9:15 in the morning! But we'll have to be there about an hour earlier...so she can get used to it and so we can practice.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Have fun and best of luck to you guys! Keep us posted!


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Don't you worry, it'll be a busy weekend, but I'm sure we'll have fun! And me and the Merlin will have some good fun in Showmanship too!


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

4rdogs said:


> Good Luck..
> Have fun
> Dog's do not fail if they don't do the honor .. New Rules


Thanks Karen - I've been out of Rally for a year didnt know that new rule.. :uhoh:


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## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

So how did day one go??


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Sorry guys, Merlin and I got first, and I've been rusty so I executed the "L" and "Triangle" patterns wrong...I really wonder what would've happened if I got them right. (Should've had a V8:doh LOL!! 

Day 2...

Ugh...I thought for once Maddie might qualify and do really good, she warmed up nice and was quite calmed and relxed before we went in. We got in the ring took off the leash...went forward and BAM...she zoomied off...ugh...this dog makes me sooo mad...she came...but then it took awhile before that she came to me. We got the first one done and she did ok...got the the second sign and it was the jump...got over that called her to get close and zoomied off again. Got her back but took awhile...then she came and we attempted to the 'left turn'...so then she just wasn't with it...looked at the judge and she said I think I'm going to have to excuse you...I'm sorry. Maybe she's just not ready for this...that made me sad and angry how she said it. My dad wasn't either....
So...my question is to you guys, how on EARTH can I get her to stop zoomieing...?? She does this in agility, rally AND obedience...etc. She isn't doing this for enthusiasm...just to 'test' me and see how far I'll go.
Our friend who owns Merlin said her dog Garret (St Poodle) die the SAME thing, so she attached a shark line on him and ever since then he's NEVER done that. Is that the BEST way to go? Or is there something else I can do?
At first I thought Maddie was really really good at this stuff...but Linda's told me the past few days that Maddie sure isn't the easiest dog to train. Either we get a new dog...but I don't want to give up on her just yet.
Also, how can I get my mom to stop babying her? That's all Maddie goes to because she gets babied...and then doesn't behave in the house or the ring....it's tearing me apart and our career.

Thanks for reading and listening...:wavey:


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

It's not your mom's fault. There should be nothing your mom could possibly do to make herself more fun than you. It does not sound like training obedience has been a very fun experience for Maddie (you've even said that according to Linda it's not supposed to be fun), and in training you've been using harsh physical methods to keep her with you. If she hasn't really been enjoying obedience and you need both a prong collar and a head halter to keep her with you in training, what do you expect her to do when those are gone? She's not "testing" you, she just doesn't HAVE to stay with you anymore and she's never WANTED to stay with you, so why should she?

As to Maddie not being "the easiest dog to train," young retrievers tend to have high pain tolerances and they're sometimes not very good at connecting physical corrections with their behavior (they're just like "hey, that was annoying, cut it out!"). When I tried to teach Boo loose leash walking by stopping every time he hit the end of the leash (which is a very mild correction but still technically a correction), he decided that the game was to hit the end, come back to me and bark, whirl right back around and hit the end of the leash, and so on. They don't see the connection between what they're doing and the correction, they just get annoyed at the stupid human.

It seems to me that if anyone is "tearing apart your career," it's ... not your mother ...


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

katieanddusty said:


> It's not your mom's fault. There should be nothing your mom could possibly do to make herself more fun than you. It does not sound like training obedience has been a very fun experience for Maddie (you've even said that according to Linda it's not supposed to be fun), and in training you've been using harsh physical methods to keep her with you. If she hasn't really been enjoying obedience and you need both a prong collar and a head halter to keep her with you in training, what do you expect her to do when those are gone? She's not "testing" you, she just doesn't HAVE to stay with you anymore and she's never WANTED to stay with you, so why should she?
> 
> As to Maddie not being "the easiest dog to train," young retrievers tend to have high pain tolerances and they're sometimes not very good at connecting physical corrections with their behavior (they're just like "hey, that was annoying, cut it out!"). When I tried to teach Boo loose leash walking by stopping every time he hit the end of the leash (which is a very mild correction but still technically a correction), he decided that the game was to hit the end, come back to me and bark, whirl right back around and hit the end of the leash, and so on. They don't see the connection between what they're doing and the correction, they just get annoyed at the stupid human.
> 
> It seems to me that if anyone is "tearing apart your career," it's ... not your mother ...


 
Katie...I don't mean to argue with you...but our agility instructor said that Maddie does this because she's unsure or what to do..(by zoomieing around) . I don't think you got a clear understanding of what Linda's philosophy is...it's to keep the dogs drive and want to work and giving thema long healthy life....AND keeping it FUN. 

Maddie has potential to do this...but I don't know...how to put it...she is just Maddie. She doesn't pay attention to me...and still is on the Halti...either I'm not working her enough..or being consistent. I think a good ol' trip down to Linda's would help.

Also, if you lived one day in my house, you would clearly see that my mom babies Maddie too much...and we've had our arguements and I've told her about it...and she says she isn't but...she hasn't realized is that petting and babying a dog too much, can lead to a dog gone bad...

I'm not trying to argue with you Katie, all I'm saying is that the training should be fun, just not the Halti part, becase by now she should know to keep her head up...but just doesn't want to because she's so USED TO dropping it. Linda's dogs are animated and are always having a good time in the ring...and that's what I want with Maddie.

I feel like I'm ruining this good dog...she has LOADS of potential...it just hasen't sunk into her thick skull yet.


" and in training you've been using harsh physical methods to keep her with you. " I think what you're thinking of was when I trained with our past instructor...she did and showed all the 80's 'crank and yank' methods...which most of those are being discovered...stupid, so to speak. Linda uses motivational up beat Compulsion Games.

See her videos on You Tube....look up OTCH200 and you'll see what I mean...


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Do you really expect me to think she's treats adult dogs the same as she does that 4-month-old puppy, especially when you've already discussed the elaborate prong collar and head halter system she's been having you use and that she told you was not supposed to be fun? There's probably a reason her only videos are of the 4-month-old puppy ...

Anyone can say they're "keeping it fun" and anyone can play tug with a 4-month-old puppy. Everything you've described that she's recommended you do with Maddie reveals MUCH more about what is actually going on. You can tell me I don't understand it all you want, but I have plenty of experience with these so-called "motivational" trainers and I understand what is going on.

Linda's dogs are Border Collies and at least the one in that video is from a well-known performance breeder. The BC temperament and the dog's particular breeding have a huge effect on the dog's drive and ability to bounce back and learn from corrections.

Your agility instructor is not any more omniscient than Linda, and I highly doubt he/she knows Goldens as well as many people on here or has succeeded with Goldens as much as several people on here have. If your dog only stays with you because of the halti/prong/leash, and you take the halti/prong/leash off, your dog will be gone. It's simple. Working her more and being more consistent with the halti/prong/leash will not change that one bit, because she's still only staying with you because of the halti/prong/leash. Therefore, you need to get your dog to stay with you for other reasons.

Your mom could be feeding Maddie steak, having Maddie sit on her lap on the couch, letting Maddie sit on the couch while mom sits on the floor, whatever. It really doesn't matter. You should still be more fun than anything else. And if you weren't using these admittedly un-fun training methods, you'd be a lot closer to becoming more fun than anything else.

"Compulsion Games"? Compulsion is not a game, and it is not motivational or upbeat. It's physically forcing a dog to do something. And then you wonder why the dog doesn't do it when the various means of applying physical force are gone.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Keep your chin up Caryn! If it were easy, everyone would have titles. You sound very dedicated. Your time is coming.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

:wave::wave::no::smooch:


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

Good Luck, keep smiling, you guy's will do great :crossfing


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Awwwww We are all pulling for you. Have a good time with it. That is the important thing. Spending time with your doggie is the best part. When the title comes, it will mean that much more to you, because it was "hard" to get.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

vrocco1 said:


> Awwwww We are all pulling for you. Have a good time with it. That is the important thing. Spending time with your doggie is the best part. When the title comes, it will mean that much more to you, because it was "hard" to get.


You got that right man!!! I know spending the quality time with your dog is the best part...and giving them the best life they've ever had!!


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

What does your mom do that you consider "babying" Maddie, then?

Do you think being dragged along while on both a prong collar and a head halter would be fun for Maddie? Do you think it would give her good associations with either you or obedience?

The idea that dogs "think they can run the show" and need to know that the hander is "the leader" is a very old-fashioned view that is not useful for getting flashy obedience or fast agility. Even Cesar Millan admits that dominance-based training is not for sports and that positive reinforcement training works better for competition obedience/agility. So next time you start criticizing Cesar, remember that you are taking a more dominance-based and fear-based approach to obedience than even he would.

We're all rooting for you. What I'm doing, and what most other competitive obedience/agility people on here have just given up on trying, is trying to get you to use methods that have a better chance of succeeding with your particular dog (no matter how great Linda's methods work for a few well-bred high-drive Border Collies). I see a lot of juniors quit agility because of the combination of being preoccupied with the wrong goals and putting too much faith in the wrong methods/people. I don't want you to end up quitting, I want you to succeed, and that can only happen when Maddie truly wants to work with you.


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## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

I'm sorry things did not go well. I know that you will keep having fun. I do agree that you mom spoiling maggie has nothing to due with it. I also disagree that she is blowing you off. She is not staying with you of her own free will on leash yet (according to what I have seen posted here) so I woulden't expect her to due off leash in a show enviroment. They have to "want" to stay with you either because you have taught them that its the best place to be or because they have learned that they will be punished if they are not(which general works on leash only) The methoud you have described to get "heads up" heeling is not postive and by your statments maddie dose not like it. So she knows you can't punish her but she also dosen't see it as a good place to be.If that is how you wish to train thats ok but realize that you have a LONG road ahead to get her to do it on her own. And you had the added problem that she dose not enjoy being in the heel postion right now so if she has a choice as in the ring that is not the choice she is going to make. I hope that you will be at some point in time willing to accept advice from people other than linda as each dog is different and each trainer is different and somones elses way of teaching a skill may be what maddie need to "turn the light bulb on". You can choose to ONLY take linda advice and get upset when other ways are sugessted or her ways critized. There are many great trainers on this site and others that could help you greatly but the decision is your. Good luck


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Caryn,

I think as difficult as it is to hear, I think you've gotten lots of sound feedback thus far, so I'll keep my comment short and sweet. 

If you can take Maddie to a park, take her off leash and get her heeling with you, she's likely ready to show. If you can't show up at a place she's never been, and w/o the aid of a leash, halti and prong, keep her atentively heeling, then she's not ready to show. Period. Who knows how long it will take. Attention heeling TAKES TIME! And if you're only getting it in the presence of the "props", it doesn't really count. The dog has to develop the desire to do it on his own - either b/c you've made it super fun and rewarding to do so, or you've made it hugely punishing to not do so. BUT, if you choose to make it aversive to NOT do the right thing, keep in mind that dogs trained with compulsion (do it or else!) are CONSTANTLY looking for loopholes when working. Maddie found a giant loophole.... NO LEASH! She saw her chance and she ran with it... literally, right around the ring!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*So...my question is to you guys, how on EARTH can I get her to stop zoomieing...?? She does this in agility, rally AND obedience...etc. She isn't doing this for enthusiasm...just to 'test' me and see how far I'll go.*

She's doing it b/c it's more fun to zoom than to heel with you right now. Plain and simple. Dogs don't live to please us. Whenever you ask ANY dog to do ANYTHING, the first thought that goes through his mind is, "What's in it for me right now?"

So ask youself: How do you make it more fun? How do you make the dog WANT to work with you?

BTW - I'm sorry that was your experience in the ring. I know it's embarrassing. But don't worry - there's not shortage of dog shows. You'll have another shot when you decide that you and Maddie are ready to try again.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Hey, I was just thinking... how'd you get her through Rally Advanced if she's so prone to the Zoomies in the ring? RA is all done off leash and it uses many of the same signs as RE... Just curious. Did you use a different training style back then? How long ago were you doing your RA work?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> BTW - I'm sorry that was your experience in the ring. I know it's embarrassing.


But ultimately, down the road, we have SO much fun sharing and comparing our "Most Embarrassing Ring Moments" !!!!!!!!

Caryn, Stephanie's advice is priceless. Don't push Maddie too far, because if she really isn't ready, and pulls these stunts in the ring, then she's learning that she CAN. Make sure that she is truly ready before gong in the ring, in a situation where you are able to address any missteps.

And, make it FUN!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Hi Caryn
Sorry things did not go as you had hoped. As Stephanie said you did do Rally Advanced and there are only a couple - I think 3 - additional signs possible in excellent so there must be something else going on. It may be that Maddie did not like "sharing" you with the dog you showed in conformation. Probably not that simple but it could have some merit.
Also as Laura said you WILL look back on this someday and willing tell the story with a smile. 
Take care and don't let it get to you. It will get better.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*either I'm not working her enough..or being consistent...*

Or maybe you're consistently working her enough with a technique that's just not working for the dog.

If what you're doing isn't working... change YOUR behavior. Rule #1 of animal training.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

HEY --- just checking in here...... and I'm really curious to hear about her performance in Rally Advanced. Did she stay with you then? How long ago was that?


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Sorry Steph...I just needed to take a breather from this thread.

Ok answering your question, we first started out in Advanced in April of 2007, we still had our old trainer then...then in May we got our second leg, on a Saturday, and then Sunday of that same show, she pretty much did the same thing, except not as much. I just don't know with her these days. Then in July of 2007 we finished our title with a 78...I think?? But suprisingly she had a 92 in May and a 70 in April. Not sure how we did it...the last score to finish our title...she did pretty good, except got up on the Halt- 90 Pivot Left-Halt. Don't ask me...she's been to these places before...


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