# Not Fair!



## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Tonight I decided to watch the NOI (Obedience Invitationals for AKC,2006). I've watched them before...I watched NOC OTCH Chaseabout's Dances With Lions UDX9 JH MX MJX or "Simba". I'd have to say and put my 2 cents worth...this dog is ok...not a National Champion for Obedience. He's got many things to work on in heeling...including the Figure Eight. I just don't think it should've been him. There are many other GREAT Goldens out there...that I think did LOTS better. I can try to find the link and show you. 

As you can see I'm not a lab fan I think of them as "Lazy Labs". You rarely see a lab wanting to work. I was going to post this on a different forum but this lady runs a lab kennel...and competes with them. So it's probably safer on here. 

Here's the link:



 
Just wanted to see what you thought.

I'm not sure if the You Tube video will work...hopefully.:crossfing


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

it doesnt work for me...


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Didn;t work for me thought not sure I would be competent to judge what I saw. LOL

Hooch


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Here's the video:






I'm curious Creekview... what faults do you see?

-Stephanie


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't know too much about this sort of thing. But it didn't look like the dog was doing very much, I wasn't impressed.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Not sure what you mean by not doing very much.

Keep in mind that this is day two of the event and the dog is probably working on his 6th ring performance. Each time, he's in the ring working for about 8 minutes... and he's working in an unfamiliar and very distracting envrionment. I also believe he's a bit of an older dog -- like 6+.

He may not be working in a "flashy" style, but his work looks very precise to me. Nice fronts and finishes, nice heelwork, etc. I'm really tired tonight after a training seminar all weekend, but when I quickly replayed it, the only things that stood out to me initially was a tiny bit of mothing on the glove exercise and a little anticipation on the go-outs, but that's pretty normal since an obedience routine is totally pattern trained (my least favorite thing about the sport).


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Not sure what you mean by not doing very much.
> 
> Keep in mind that this is day two of the event and the dog is probably working on his 6th ring performance. Each time, he's in the ring working for about 8 minutes... and he's working in an unfamiliar and very distracting envrionment. I also believe he's a bit of an older dog -- like 6+.
> 
> He may not be working in a "flashy" style, but his work looks very precise to me. Nice fronts and finishes, nice heelwork, etc. I'm really tired tonight after a training seminar all weekend, but when I quickly replayed it, the only things that stood out to me initially was a tiny bit of mothing on the glove exercise and a little anticipation on the go-outs, but that's pretty normal since an obedience routine is totally pattern trained (my least favorite thing about the sport).


See I told you I didn't know much about this sort of thing.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Bailey & Bentley said:


> See I told you I didn't know much about this sort of thing.


Haha! No worries. To the untrained eye, watching competitive obedience is about as much fun as watching grass grow! : Compared to agility, it really does look like the dog isn't doing much of anything!


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> Compared to agility, it really does look like the dog isn't doing much of anything!


Very true...but when you actually are there in person, it's much more interesting! Those down stays are amazing!

The one thing that a lot of people like that I just don't is Rally. THAT bores me.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

I love labs. I thought that one looked great - I am no expert of course!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Ardeagold said:


> Very true...but when you actually are there in person, it's much more interesting! Those down stays are amazing!
> 
> The one thing that a lot of people like that I just don't is Rally. THAT bores me.


Rally is a great warm up for regular obedience, IMO. However, watching a poorly-working Rally team is downright painful for me!


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## Rastadog (Oct 24, 2006)

*workman like job*

Fronts and finishes are so important at this level. The camera angle is poor but I'll bet this dog didn't miss one. I think this is more a question of style. I like more attitude and more heads up heeling. That is style since this dog pays attention. The dog is big and long and the handler small which affects the overall picture. I didn't see much markable. Heeling maybe a slow sit. Signals I saw a lag and a wide turn. Nice consistant work. I was at a trial one day watching a GSD that heeled with it's head down with no attitude. Guess what, that dog was never out of heel position and nailed every front and finish, 198.5 and deserved every point. This team beat a lot of good teams to win. They did it by being consistant and accurate.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

To me the dog's style sucks, but he was very accurate. I don't like Labs, though I have owned one little wirey field bred one whom I ADORED, but I don't think a Golden should win just because I think Goldens are prettier, better dogs. Remember flashy high stepping heelwork is NOT a requirement to win, and shouldn't be influencing the judge. It is WAY more fun to watch, though!!!! I will give you that. I would much rather watch Quiz heel than that dog. Compare that to Neil and Flame (the Golden at Crufts) and there's no comparison. Flame is 100 times prettier and flashier looking *and* acting, so a much more fun video to watch.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

The thing that hit me was how very controlled the handler was.. her voice was consistant, body language consistant...even her rewards for the dog (his jump and pat were consistant...)...My voice tends to be inconsistant goes all pitchy when I am under stress....and I certainly am not as consistant with my praise...
I thought it was a really nice, solid, performance....and to still have a lab wagging his tail after all the ring time he had that day is quite impressive...

Obed is one of those things that until you try it and really understand the nuances of what positioning is required you dont realize how difficult it is can be. 

When I first saw dogs training for obdience exercises in a class...I went home and tried some of them...My eyes popped open with the realization that, "Holy smokes this is a challenge! 

As Rasta said some dogs go through the exercises with great flash and it is quite entertaining...and some dogs are very serious...but when those serious dogs are 'on' wow...its is quite a sight... I love to see the little-bitty dogs work...saw a Boston doing Utility...it was a stitch!


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Yes, I understand that flashy heelwork is NOT required...but still he's kind of slow on his heeling. On his figure eights...on the halt...he's kind of slow responding to his sits...this is what I think...but you may thinkg different.

The dogs age doesn't matter. Heck, our mentors dog is 6 years old (not exactly to this date) and he's still out there strutting away...and still has AWESOME attention...so it doesn't matter on the age. I do understand that each dog is in the ring more than once. 

I'm just so shocked they would actually judge this dog the way they did...


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Just watched it this morning...he anticipated the call to heel on the stand for exam. I don't know if you can take steps in the signal exercise...he did for the down....that's probably why he got a 198.5.


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## Rastadog (Oct 24, 2006)

*Creekview, keep an open mind*

Yes he is a bit pokey. My obedience dog heeled with more flash BUT this team is much better than we were. There is nothing in the regs to score attitude. Be kind to our retrieving brothers and sisters the labs. When I was showing here in the east Sharon Pica was winning everything with her lab. Locally a woman named Nancy Opie had the most up labs with attitude you would ever want to see. Jane Jackson has won a few trials and maybe one or two tournments with her labs. I think it's a training issue not a breed issue. I have seen more than one poop face golden in he ring. I also wonder if those slow sits are a structure issue. GSD's tend to sit slow. I think it's the way they are built.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

When you have a dog that has a flashy working style, you're more apt to get bumps, etc. simply because of how much extra movement your dog has with his flash, etc. There are pros and cons to both. I prefer to watch a flashy dog and I hope to have created a flashy dog that is as precise as possible.

Still, that doesn't mean that "flash" is a requirement. It's not, and it shouldn't really influence the judge. ATTENTION (as in the head up) is not required either. So long as they dog stays in position, he need not keep his head up that high like what we consider to be "attention heeling".

It's about accuracy and precision. Not flash.

And age may will affect the dog. Maybe he was flashier when he was younger. Just b/c your trainer's BC is six and still drivey and flashy doesn't mean all dogs will be that way. Quiz likely won't slow down at 6... but I bet his performance might be a bit slower when he's 10... 

There are 101 ways to NQ in Utility. Renate and Simba are a very nice working team. IMO, you should be looking for what they are doing *right* and not picking them apart.

Until you've walked into the ring at that level, you really have no idea how challenging it is.

Also, remember this for when you start showing... you only NEED a 170 to qualify. Many of us WANT the 199... but at the end of the day, you can have two dogs with CDs and the certificate won't show your scores. REmember that the sport is created to allow for all levels of personal expectations in training. I've heard people stand ringside who bash a dog who is working but qualifies with a 175 or 180. I don't feel that's right. NOt saying that you do that... just making a general statement of sorts...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Agreed... I lack the motivation and self discipline to train to a super high level, and I train in bursts. I'll teach my dog 50 things in a couple months then not train at all (except as needed for daily manners and life skills) for months and months.

I also don't have the money or ability (I don't do annual shots so am not allowed to take my dogs to my local club) to get any instruction or attend any classes. I have to do it all on my own. 

So when and if I scrape up the dimes to enter and go to a show- I will be delighted to qualify! That doesn't mean I don't dream big sometimes- but reality always kicks me LOL


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> To me the dog's style sucks, but he was very accurate. I don't like Labs, though I have owned one little wirey field bred one whom I ADORED, but I don't think a Golden should win just because I think Goldens are prettier, better dogs. Remember flashy high stepping heelwork is NOT a requirement to win, and shouldn't be influencing the judge. It is WAY more fun to watch, though!!!! I will give you that. I would much rather watch Quiz heel than that dog. Compare that to Neil and Flame (the Golden at Crufts) and there's no comparison. Flame is 100 times prettier and flashier looking *and* acting, so a much more fun video to watch.


Neil and Flame are amazing to watch, 

YouTube - Crufts 2007 - Neil & Flame - full round

YouTube - Crufts 2006 - Neil & Flame


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I also don't have the money or ability (I don't do annual shots so am not allowed to take my dogs to my local club) to get any instruction or attend any classes. I have to do it all on my own.


WOW - they actually CHECK?!? OMG. None of the Clubs I'm in ever actually check! Bummer for you.... Will they take titres?

-S


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

They will, but I just cannot be blowing the price of a class on a titre... then paying for a class!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

They don't check, btw, for conformation class... but for obedience, you have to give them a copy than can KEEP of your dog's annual shot records. Kennel Cough Vax TOO, which I would NEVER do- and there isn't even a titre for that, is there?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Here's the Neil and Flame video:






A bit hard to compare to US AKC obedience since there are many differences - namely in the heeling style. Makes my left leg twitch to see how the dog wraps on the handler's leg like that... and how he crowds the handler on the front after the retrieve... I also think the handler's fast pace is really slow...but that's how they train.

The attention is beautiful and the handler is very smooth and consistent. They are a lovely team to watch!


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Yes they are a WONDERFUL team to watch...very impressive...I like the music that goes along with it...very catchy!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

So, I'm still curious, what faults did you see in the Simba video? You said you felt they shouldn't have won... I'd love to know what you saw to make you feel that way.

Serious. Not looking to get into an argument. Just wondering what you saw.

-S


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

CreekviewGoldens said:


> Tonight I decided to watch the NOI (Obedience Invitationals for AKC,2006). I've watched them before...I watched NOC OTCH Chaseabout's Dances With Lions UDX9 JH MX MJX or "Simba". I'd have to say and put my 2 cents worth...this dog is ok...not a National Champion for Obedience...<snip>As you can see I'm not a lab fan I think of them as "Lazy Labs". You rarely see a lab wanting to work.


Oh, you mean you don't like Flabradors? LOL! I'm not a huge fan, either, since most I see are conf dogs and the conf Labs are really something to behold (the word "Sea Lion" comes to mind). I have seen a few fieldy Labs work in OB, and they were pretty awesome.

I managed to yawn my way through most of the NOC clip. That dog is very precise, but his performance is nowhere near awe-inspiring in my book. Typical AKC obedience: precision and consistency, even if it means waiting for your coffee to percolate while you wait for him to sit, LOL. I LOVE obedience, but I hate how it's set up and scored here in the States.

On the plus side, that Lab is NOT obese, has beautiful muscle tone, and seems to be very fit. But I can't imagine running that dog in agility with his structure. (I couldn't help but notice his agility titles.) Just my opinion, but I think agility will take it's toll on his front assembly and height:weight ratio (among other things). Just because a dog is _willing _to do something, doesn't mean that he should be doing it.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Please tell me these dogs don't go on to have neck problems...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Depends how god forsakenly awful their shoulders, upper arm, and front placement on the body is.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Makes my left leg twitch to see how the dog wraps on the handler's leg like that


OMG...it makes my left leg twitch, too..._*IN AN ABSOLUTE ORGASM!!! *_That is one seriously gorgeous working dog! And I mean gorgeous in every respect...not just in his work ability, but even that black pigment on his pads and lips makes me drool, LOL! :

Oh, and FWIW, I don't think that Flame wrapped that much around Neil, especially for a UK dog. I've seen much more extreme wrapping. I thought Flame was pretty conservative in that respect. And as for the crowding, well...I've been seeing more and more crowding in the US, (not to the extent that you see in the UK, but getting pretty darn close), so there is a very fine line there. 

I can see how the US OB people would have a fit over the UK heeling. But, seeing as I grew up totally "horsey," I can understand the appeal in having a dog work off your leg as the UK dogs do. All advanced horsemanship/equitation is built on having the horse "work off your legs" (and "seat" -- but obviously, a dog can't work off your seat, at least not in the same way a horse does). So, to have a dog "wrapped around your leg," or at least in *contact* with your leg, could be a major appeal to someone who is very "horsey" (such as myself).

So, for those of you who are trying to teach your dogs this nebulous area of acceptable US heeling (that foggy area, somewhere really _near_ you but not _touching_ you, but not _too far_ back, _too far_ to the front, or _too far_ to the outside), think about all the advantages UK heeling could bring. Hmmmm...just think about it...actually being able to FEEL your dog. What a concept! I don't think the US set is quite ready for it, especially considering what light-years they are behind horse-wise, (although they are catching up, thanks to so much training abroad!), LOL!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

There's a reason I stay up at night watching my fave Flame video... that's my dream!!! I LIVED in the UK, and let me tell you, a lot of those dogs would make almost anyone green with envy. Such a lucky lass I am to have seen that in the flesh every weekend for two years. When I came back here, I found myself yawning ringside. After all folks...

It is a dog **SHOW**

And yes, although I generally cannot stand UK Golden breed type, Flame is just plain gorgeous. Not over done, not bulky, not unable to walk without rolling his topline about... and GORGEOUS pigment!

And that's a MAN training him- all the more impressive.

And look at that dog's happy wagging tail. He's loving life! Just a beautiful picture...


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Kimm said:


> Please tell me these dogs don't go on to have neck problems...


Who do you think is keeping all these doggy chiropractors and acupuncturists in business? Seriously. That's one reason I work all heeling on my left *and* my RIGHT side. And I still don't work as much as I should with Marlowe, b/c he has a ****** shoulder, and I am not going to torture my dog.


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## Rastadog (Oct 24, 2006)

*Kimm, no neck problems*

I did this seriously for 4-5 years with my golden. She begged for treats when we were out walking by heeling she initiated. That's a long time she looking up at me. She was fine. Her holistic vet did chiropratic. My dog had no issues. All the people I met at trials or trained with had no dogs with neck issues. The only people who have ever said that to me were people who used that as an excuse not to train attention with heeling. I'm not trying to make trouble. Just be honest and share my observations from someone who did serious obedience with one dog for a long time.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

BTW THIS is my fave Flame video...

The one that makes me want to kick my own ass and get out there and make Sabrina a star

YouTube - Crufts 2006 - Neil & Flame


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I've never had a dog come up with problems and I have worked Goldens with typical Golden upright shoulders (seriously I think I have seen about five Goldens in my lifetime with truly outstandingly GOOD fronts, and a good percentage with passable ones... and a LOT, including top champions, with HORRIBLE fronts that make me wince and wonder how the dog can even raise its head) and sighthounds which generally lack layback- but even so, I have never had a dog with a truly gawd awful front that I tried to work attention heeling with... I'm not sure it's a MASSIVE concern, and it depends what kind of attention you're asking for... both my girls have functional fronts- certainly nothing I'd consider ideal, but not deformed looking... and IMO not risky to do obedience heeling with.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Rastadog said:


> I did this seriously for 4-5 years with my golden. She begged for treats when we were out walking by heeling she initiated. That's a long time she looking up at me. She was fine. Her holistic vet did chiropratic. My dog had no issues. All the people I met at trials or trained with had no dogs with neck issues. The only people who have ever said that to me were people who used that as an excuse not to train attention with heeling. I'm not trying to make trouble. Just be honest and share my observations from someone who did serious obedience with one dog for a long time.


I think most owners aren't observant enough to even know when their dogs have problems. And _especially_ with Goldens, who are pretty **** stoic by nature...you really have to be intuitive, b/c they just effin' love this stuff. Just my two cents. 

No excuses, no ********, just calling it like it is. My own *rescue* GR begs for MORE, but I know when to call it quits. I know structure, and I'm not about to try to push the envelope when I effin' KNOW a dog isn't made to stare up at me adoringly, no matter how much he seems to LOVE it, for more than a certain period of time. :


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