# Purely Positive vs. Force/Pressure



## John G

Not wanting to hijack the thread about the positive field trainer, I thought it might be good to start a new one. I'm not really sure how someone can train to advanced levels of Retriever Field work with purely positive methods alone.

That is not to say I don't think that many dogs can be trained using a lot of positive methods. They can. I would just like to know how anyone thinks they can without ever using any negative methods?

As Stacey mentioned, I have trained dogs to higher field levels without using an e-collar or force-fetching. This does not mean it was all R+. I have also trained dogs using both e-collars as well as force-fetch.

I believe that there is not a one size fits all in regards to dog training. For those that believe that you must force fetch dogs for advanced field work please explain why? For those that think that you don't ever have to resort to e-collars or FF please tell me why not and how you make a solid Retriever without them.

John


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## gdgli

I also do not believe that one size fits all. The difficult part is to read the dog and understand a best strategy for him, each dog being different. My opinion anyway.

Also, if a trainer uses only R+, he is ignoring the other three quadrants which may be useful. I feel that is limiting.


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## tippykayak

I don't know enough about H&F to answer all the questions asked in the initial post, but just to add to the conversation, I don't think anybody actually trains in only one quadrant. "Positive" trainers tend to emphasize +R, but many "positive" solutions incorporate -P.

I do think you need to punish behaviors you need to reduce for whatever reason (e.g., jumping up on strangers for regular pets, other stuff for H&F dogs), so I think you need some form of punishment. The question that interests me is whether you need to add something unpleasant (an aversive) for reliable, precise behaviors. I'm becoming increasingly convinced that you _don't_ need that.

Again, for behaviors specific to advanced competition in field trials or hunt tests, I'm not your guy. I haven't done it and wouldn't claim to tell anybody how to do it. But I do know that you can get reliability in the face of extreme distraction as well as very precise behaviors at a distance without +P.


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## gdgli

tippy

I think you are right, nobody trains in only one quadrant.


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## Megora

Changed mind. ?


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## Claudia M

I was adamant against using ecolars on my girls. That was until last year in March when I took the girls out training. I was at that time so proud of Rose's distance downs and sit stays (she would not move in a store, I could go all over the house and she would not break it). Until.... that day. Had Rose in a sit stay, went with Darcy to put the bumpers at the other end. It was snowing and I did not have my glasses on (wear them for distance). Did not see the deer in the field, nor did I see this deer coming straight to the fence. The moment I caught a glimpse of the deer I looked behind me, Rose already took off, jumped the fence and started running after the deer. STOP, WHOA, COME, NOOOO in vain were screamed from the top of my lungs. Claudia has to jump the fence and run after the dog and deer up and down the fields. Rose gets to the side of the der and jumps on it trying to play. At that I froze, I was afraid she will get kicked by the deer. I have no clue what I screamed at that time but she finally went back towards the house. 
I walk back home furious only to get more mad as my husband was sitting outside laughing on how he never realized his wife can run so fast. To which I replied that I did not give a d what he thought about the e-collars but they will be overnighted that day and not a second later. 
Had a trainer help me with collar conditioning with both Rose and Darcy. 

Darcy had this thin where she had to show everyone her bird and not come straight back to me. And that was solved quickly. Then she would bring the bird to the shore and then play with it, put her head under the water, goof around at a good enough distance where I could not put my hand on her unless I went swimming with her. And that was solved. Now she is starting to pee at about 20 to 30 yards on her way back.


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## hotel4dogs

I am a positive only trainer.
I use positive reinforcement, and positive punishment : .


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## TrailDogs

I do train field with an e-collar because I feel I can get much better timing on long distance corrections.
I do not force fetch, I teach the fetch command as I would any other exercise, step by step. It usually takes about six weeks. My current dog learned fetch, hold, and release without any pressure. She retrieves hundreds of pheasant, has an MH and a CDX. And does not have retrieving issues. 
I like a balanced training program where the dog learns both what to do and what not to do. How much pressure involved depends on the dog's level of compliance. As a trainer I am much more likely to break something down and reteach before I resort to pressure.
Each dog is different and I am always open to different training approaches that will get the end results that I want, if I have a dog that is intelligent and cooperative.


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## ktkins7

Ella is the first dog I'm training. When I first got her I was determined to do positive only training. For most things she responded well. She's smart and wants to please, but isn't super food motivated. I found I was running into a brick wall with certain things, like loose leash walking. No matter how much I praised her for doing it correctly our how many good treats I gave, which positive method I did, she kept pulling. Call in a private trainer, talked me into a prong collar, and it worked. Now I can take her on the leash without the prong collar without pulling. If she does pull a verbal command corrects it with nothing further. Unless my parents have been walking her more recently then it may take a reminder walk our two with the prong collar.

I've just started field training. From what I've heard the trainer we are using is pretty good. Showed me the difference with positive reinforcement with an exercise and using a choke collar. Like night and day with Ella. Ella only needs a minimal amount of corrections because she's smart, wants to please, and is a bit sensitive. Much quicker and firmer response. A lot of it depends on me though, making sure that she knows what she is supposed to do so she understands what the correction is for.

Being new to field training, I'm depending a lot on the trainer. Our next lesson will start ecollar conditioning, which I feel will work well with Ella.

So right now I find myself using a combination of both. With my limited experience, I feel like it depends on the individual dog and making sure that any negative reinforcement is done appropriately and correctly. My original fear of my relationship with Ella changing because of using corrections with her proved to be untrue. I actually feel like our relationship is improving as we go. We're not perfect by any means and I'm sure I've made my fair share of mistakes in my experience, but before we were getting to a point where she barely paid attention to me. This is greatly improving. I knew part if it is age related because she is only a year and a half, but the combination of positive and negative is what's working for us.


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## Alaska7133

It is always interesting to me how incredibly different one puppy is from the next, even from the same litter. I did puppy field training with 3 of Lucy's littermates. They were all so different. Lucy very quickly figured out she wanted nothing to do with bumpers and only wanted birds. One brother wanted only bumpers and didn't want to pick up birds. One sister only wanted to eat the birds and not bring them back. They have all matured differently also. I wanted to keep it all positive, but there was no way in heck that Lucy would pick up a bumper, it was ducks only for her. I worked so hard with her to pick up anything (sticks, balls, toys) but a duck, no way. She was so hard headed. So we went ahead and force fetched her to get her to pick up a bumper. It took a very long time, she was so resistant. Even now though every once in awhile, I have to pinch her to the pile.

My guy Reilly has never been forced. I do use an ecollar to keep him from eating ducks and occasionally in recall. He's very sweet and will fetch anything. He will do pile work happily. But his being blind in one eye will keep him at the level he's at, which is very sad.

So John, just a question on force and the e-collar. I have seen collars used to do different things. 1. Reinforce a command 2. Correct the dog for a mistake. For example, I've seen Bill Hillmann sit a dog, then nic it at a very low level and say "sit" as a reinforcement of the command. I've also seen Pat Nolan use the collar for force fetch. Using very low level constant nics to get the dog to pick up the bumper. Then of course correction, I use that when Reilly on a retrieve will stop part way back and roll on a duck and start eating it. To me that's a correction. So John do use a collar for both reinforcement and correction? Or am I too far off topic?


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## John G

Well Sarah......I mean Stacey, I believe in using it in both manners you refer to. Sit nic Sit is probably the basic method that most are used to. The idea here is the dog trying to beat the burn/nic and learning to sit or respond very quickly to a command.

Very important for anyone doing anything with the e-collar to properly collar condition your dog first. Try and keep the dog relatively calm and stable while on a lead. Please don't just strap on and start clicking away like a TV remote!

Best for you and the dog to be shown how by someone that knows how to use. How do you know if they know? A good clue is to see how there dogs act around them and how they train. Are they happy and animated or fearful an sulking or tentative? Lardy, Hillman, Rorem, Farmer Videos are all good choices if you don't have a personal mentor.

The e-collar is a tool. In the proper hands it is a very effective tool. Like most tools, if not used properly it can do much more harm than good. Many nice dogs have been trained without ever having an e-collar. It depends on you and your dog.

John


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## Alaska7133

Looks like Sarah may entertain us with another run for higher office. We are hoping she will finally leave us alone up here. I just wouldn't wish her and her family on anyone.

Ecollars are definitely a challenge to learn correctly and timing seems to be everything. As I have learned about them over time, I've come to the conclusion that I will use hem for more types of training of dogs. 

John thanks for taking the time to post in here!


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## hollyk

Claudia, 
I have a similar story about Winter finding a baby Elk that a Momma Elk left bedded down in a field.


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## FTGoldens

John G said:


> For those that believe that you must force fetch dogs for advanced field work please explain why?
> John


Please define "advanced" as you use it here.

FTGoldens


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## Ljilly28

John G said:


> Not wanting to hijack the thread about the positive field trainer, I thought it might be good to start a new one. I'm not really sure how someone can train to advanced levels of Retriever Field work with purely positive methods alone.
> John


This does seem to be the unified opinion of most field trial experts, which is the chief reason field work doesn't interest me as something to share with my dogs.


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## John G

Ljilly28 said:


> This does seem to be the unified opinion of most field trial experts, which is the chief reason field work doesn't interest me as something to share with my dogs.


 Not just Field Trial experts, but also those that successfully compete at many of the higher levels of dog training disciplines.


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## John G

FTGoldens said:


> Please define "advanced" as you use it here.
> 
> FTGoldens


 For this discussion I would say able to compete at the AA level of Field Trials. Others might consider Master level.

Just to be clear, I think that most trainers and most dogs will find it much easier to get to this level while using an e-collar. 

Jake never had a collar on 'til after he was done running Derbies and had made the Derby list if I recall. Would you consider that advanced?

Annie was QAA and MH without one. I feel that she has achieved a lot without FF and CC, but in hindsight, might be a better dog with a little "collar help".

John
Trained by Bede and Megan and Laurie Jo Hecker:roflmao:


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## Alaska7133

Jill,
I'm at a very basic level and just completed a JH. Here's my opinion coming from a low level. I think a force program takes out the highs and lows of a dog's performance. With a force program the dog becomes more dependable that they will act in a certain way. For me on my simple journey to a lowly JH, I could count on Lucy to hold the bird all the way to the line and put the bird in my hand. That was because of the force program. You can watch the dogs that haven't been forced and their performerance from test to test would vary a lot. The dog is more influenced by a situation without a force program. It's like rote memorization, the dog can do it in their sleep. Could I have gotten through a JH with Lucy without force fetch? Yes. 

John what do you think about my opinion? You are way more knowledgeable.


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## MillionsofPeaches

With Katniss she would not pick up a bird at all without ff. Now, I did it myself and it was NOT awful at all, so much so that I forget that it was ever done, and I'm very sensitive about my dogs. 
As far as the collar. Now, that is an interesting thing. I was not using it and she got her started and half of half her JH without it but during that time we were training handling as well. I trained her to deliver perfectly at the line, meaning come into to heel, sit, and hold without anything. that was a matter of just practice and her eagerness to please. 
But with handling she would NOT sit consistently when more than 25 yards away from me. It was very frustrating. She could sense my frustration and I was at my wits end. We both were ready to give up. Finally I got the collar and wow, within two days she was a different dog. I don't mean she was a little soldier scared of what could happen if she didn't sit. I mean she sat, she was more motivated and I was happy to move forward. All of our attitudes changed for the better! I can't read her mind but her actions show that she is much happier with the collar. She seems to understand me better with it and therefore that builds her confidence in what she knows I want out of her. It is the best method of communication between me and her, is what I'm trying to say, I guess. So I do not think of the collar is negative. I think of it is as positive. I don't nic her very often. In fact, it is so slim that I often have to remember to use it so she doesn't forget its purpose. I use it on a low level and have used it on myself to know what it feels like. 
I have seen abuse of the collar and I've seen abuse of words, I've seen abuse of hands, ect. But I've seen abuse of the collar in the obedience actually. I've seen some idiot neighor pet owners abuse the collar. What I'm trying to say is, field and hunt is not the only venue where "negative" pressure is used and I'm tired of it being labeled that way.


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## John G

Shelby what a great post! So many condemn out of ignorance. Used properly they are both great tools. Do all dogs need them all the time? No, but many would benefit greatly. 

John


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## hotel4dogs

Tito was very hard to FF because he is so darned willing, and he started field with a very big competitive obedience background (for which he was not FF'd nor did we use the e-collar, he was taught with primarily positive methods) so he already understood the compulsive retrieve idea. We never *really* FF'd him because he just plain picks up anything he's told to get, regardless. There was no table, toe stuff, etc. The "ear pinch" was impossible to do because he'd just plain get whatever he was sent for before you could get anywhere near his head. I'd have to say that what we called FF with him took about 1/2 hour total, and that was really because we were running him around with a dumbbell in his mouth trying to get him hot and tired so that he'd want to drop it, which he didn't. The rationale for even trying to FF him was that, for a lot of dogs, at some point in their career, it's not that they don't want to go get a bird, it's that they want to get a DIFFERENT bird than the one you want them to get. Sure, on marks in a HT that's not really an issue, but it could be with a diversion or poison bird. So the thinking was that he has to understand that he has to get the bird that I want him to get, not necessarily the one that he wants to get. 
Did it work? I *think so* because he's really good about primary selection, and I've sent him for the memory bird before the go-bird on a couple of tests. But it's hard to say, since he pretty much just does what he's told to do anyway. We may have a big hole in our training from the loose FF, but it hasn't really shown up yet. May show up at MH tests, though.
As for the e-collar, as I've said so many times before, I wouldn't do field with Tito without the collar. While I go weeks and weeks without a nick in his training (we only correct on the "big 3"...failure to sit, failure to come, failure to go), it's my safety net in case bonehead takes off after a missed (live) bird.

edit to add: a thought about FF....if he hadn't had the competitive obedience background, and already been 3 years old, the FF program probably would have been totally different.


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## Claudia M

People are afraid of the unknown. The previous e-collars were harsher on the dogs. Now you still have some knuckleheads who abuse their use. All these instances have given them a bad name. 

My husband has been totally against them because of what he has seen, because he had his Britney (1970s) to a trainer who has destroyed the dog with them. From there on he has decided against them and got books and trained himself. 

I have trained with this gentleman with his golden who is MH WCX ** all without the e-collar or FF. Wonderful dog. 

Rose is stubborn and has a very high prey drive - if it moves she has to catch it. She is too soft to kill anything but she will try her darnest to catch it and bring it to me.

Before I used the e-collar I tried it on myself. I have the Dogtra and have never used it over 26. I have tried it on myself up to 50. Well 50 was not really intentional. I insisted my husband try it to see how it worked. Little did I know he was holding only one of the prongs. At level 10 "I don't feel it" Good, at 15 "I don't feel it" Good, At 20 "I don't feel it" hmmmm you should feel a little tingle, nope. Take it to 30 Nope "It is not working", Take it to 40 NOPE AGAIN. 50. I get worried that I just spent $400 on this thing and it is already not working. So I take it in my had and hit it. OOOOPS Laughter from both my husband and daughter. 

I have tried FF but I did not and the dogs did not enjoy it. And when I say I tried it, we did in the house wooden dumbbell, bumper and bird. From hand, from the ground and then moved immediately to walking fetch outside. And that was it. All in one week. To me it was more of a training to let her know what I want from them and not to force them to it.


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## K9-Design

Alaska7133 said:


> Jill,
> I'm at a very basic level and just completed a JH. Here's my opinion coming from a low level. I think a force program takes out the highs and lows of a dog's performance. *With a force program the dog becomes more dependable that they will act in a certain way. *For me on my simple journey to a lowly JH, I could count on Lucy to hold the bird all the way to the line and put the bird in my hand. That was because of the force program. You can watch the dogs that haven't been forced and their performerance from test to test would vary a lot. The dog is more influenced by a situation without a force program. It's like rote memorization, the dog can do it in their sleep. Could I have gotten through a JH with Lucy without force fetch? Yes.


Stacey I think this is a good observation. FF DOES increase reliability and compliance -- that is why we do it 
I think what you observe at the Junior/WC level about non-FF'd dogs is twofold - not only are their responses generally less predictable because of the lack of FF, but most people who do a thorough job of training their dogs for this level have already done FF as a matter of their basic training. The dog has just received MORE training overall than the average non-FF'd dog running Junior. They have more experience of marks, water and novel terrain, probably due to the dedication and experience of their owner/trainer. Most non-FF'd dogs in Junior are not FF'd because their owners are very novice field trainers who just haven't considered or gotten to that stage yet and were eager to run a hunt test.

Fisher earned his JH, WC and WCX with no trouble and only very little ear pinch on an obedience dumbbell as our "force fetch." He was about 18 months old for JH. No collar conditioning, no special field training, just getting out there and throwing marks with friends. It can be done at that level.

I think so few dogs at the MH or above level are NOT FF'd and/or trained with a collar is because by the time the trainer gets to that point they realize that "going Amish" is neither nicer, more effective, less stressful, or more fun. In other words, they get real LOL. Not all -- but most. It's also VERY difficult for a new field trainer to figure out all of this stuff on their own without following an established program or trainer that is dependent on FF & CC. A really experienced field trainer has a much better shot of accomplishing a no-FF and/or CC high level dog, because they know what they are looking for and what skills are important, and if their dog really is naturally talented. A new person does not have the benefit of that experience and perspective. 


I personally know one man who put a MH on a show golden without FF & CC, so it can be done, and I think he and his dog are really great, and a lot of fun to watch. He also made a lot of compromises in his dog's skillset that often put him out of tests, he knew that training without the collar is what caused it but it was OK, he just ran another test. He knew that going in. He didn't make excuses for his dog, it just was what it was.


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## Claudia M

I can understand FF a pointer but certainly not a retriever.


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## K9-Design

Claudia M said:


> I can understand FF a pointer but certainly not a retriever.


????????

"I have tried FF but I did not and the dogs did not enjoy it. And when I say I tried it, we did in the house wooden dumbbell, bumper and bird. From hand, from the ground and then moved immediately to walking fetch outside. And that was it. All in one week. To me it was more of a training to let her know what I want from them and not to force them to it."


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## Alaska7133

I have several friends at the JH level going through force fetch right now. They have labs and chessies. The labs are mostly show dogs and very easy to force. The chessies on the other hand are not for the faint of heart. I really would hate to do a chessies, I don't like getting bit! Those chessies really only like doing what they want to do, end of story. But the chessies in my group are the worst for eating birds and not coming back. So forcing has to be done if you want to get your bird back. The show labs as a group don't seem to understand how to get the bird back to hand, so they have failed JH tests for that reason. I understand why they did force their dogs. Those are just my observations of what my friends are doing. Every owner has been interesting to watch as they interact with their dog. Woman in general seem to have a problem with using an even, unemotional voice, or low enough direct voice. The guys seem to want to push too hard too fast and force hard. Those are of course generalizations. But watching the bond develop between dog and handler through the force process is interesting and sometimes painful to watch. I appreciate anyone's patience of going through force fetch with their dog. The mindset is contradictory to both what the dog wants to do and the human needs to do, which I think is why so many peopl are hesitant to do it. If I had a nickel for every person that sent their dog to a pro for force fetch...

Last winter I did force fetch with Lucy at an indoor pool (yes we have them in Alaska). The woman I was with said it was painful to watch. Lucy is a difficult dog. She did not want to hold the bumper as she came out of the water. She wanted to drop it and shake. It took quite a lot of time to get her to hold the bumper, return to my side, and not shake until I took the bumper. What a difficult thing for a dog to learn, it goes against every ounce of their being. But if they drop a bird that isn't dead yet, it could fly away! For Lucy and I water force was not a lot of fun, but we don't fail tests or have birds fly away because she dropped the bird.


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## Leslie B

I always wonder if anyone who calls the e collar "negative" has ever seen a dog that has been correctly collar conditioned getting ready to have the collar put on. They dance and wiggle and wag the whole time. Every last one! They can't wait to get the collar on and go to work. For me, it is hard to label a tool as bad that the dog loves to use.


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## Claudia M

Leslie B said:


> I always wonder if anyone who calls the e collar "negative" has ever seen a dog that has been correctly collar conditioned getting ready to have the collar put on. They dance and wiggle and wag the whole time. Every last one! They can't wait to get the collar on and go to work. For me, it is hard to label a tool as bad that the dog loves to use.


Getting the collar on and opening the dog car are the most exiting times for my dogs. The other day I had to go work on the inventory at our club and drove the dog car. The howling and crying were unbearable.


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## Loisiana

Claudia M said:


> I can understand FF a pointer but certainly not a retriever.


Pretty much everything I train the dogs to do I then follow up with "force." My dogs are trained to do a certain skill, but I also teach them that complying, and doing so immediately, isn't optional.


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## FTGoldens

Alaska7133 said:


> I have several friends at the JH level going through force fetch right now. They have labs and chessies. The labs are mostly show dogs and very easy to force. The chessies on the other hand are not for the faint of heart. I really would hate to do a chessies, I don't like getting bit! Those chessies really only like doing what they want to do, end of story. But the chessies in my group are the worst for eating birds and not coming back. So forcing has to be done if you want to get your bird back.


For difficult to FF dogs, I recommend reviewing the DVD that Bill Hillman has produced on the topic. It is a truly different way to FF a dog ... he uses a collar, but the stimulations are so low that the dog probably doesn't even know that it's happening. 
Why I say that: 
I have successfully FF'd a considerable number of dogs using the traditional, back-breaking (mine), ear pinch method. Well, I encountered one little "B" that just wouldn't have any part of FF'ing; she'd just go berserk when I touched her ear ... or even her collar before I got to the ear. She's not soft, in fact, she's a pretty tough girl. I gave it my best shot and tried several different tactics to get the ear pinch FF done, but I just got no where with it. So I decided to take a break (for both of us) and start back in a couple months. In that time, I read a review of the Hillman DVD and decided that it couldn't hurt to spend a few bucks (just a little more than an entry fee) and get the DVD. I tried his method and it worked. While I don't necessarily believe that it is quite as effective as the traditional method, for the hard-to-FF dogs, it's a great route to take.
FTGoldens


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## Alaska7133

FT,
is this the DVD you are referring to? Labrador Retriever Puppy Training - Hawkeyemedia - Training with an Electric Collar
He's got several and I wanted to make sure I knew which one.


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## tpd5

For Bill's force fetch method you would want the fetch command DVD. After reading Dennis Voigts review on this method I used it on my dog as well. 

Labrador Retriever Puppy Training - Hawkeyemedia - The Fetch Command


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## FTGoldens

Alaska7133 said:


> FT,
> is this the DVD you are referring to? Labrador Retriever Puppy Training - Hawkeyemedia - Training with an Electric Collar
> He's got several and I wanted to make sure I knew which one.


No, it's the one called "The Fetch Command."
Find it at: Labrador Retriever Puppy Training - Hawkeyemedia

[The "Traffic Cop" DVD is pretty good too, but it is very difficult to watch without dozing off.]

FTGoldens


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## SwimDog

As a newer person here, this is probably a thing I should stay out of....but apparently that requires more self control than I have.

I'm not as enthusiastic about Denise Fenzi as many. When the topic of positive reinforcement for ____ activity comes up, this article always comes to mind:
What is Possible? | Denise Fenzi

So then we end up with some questions:
- Is it possible to do high level North American retriever competitions on a R+ type training plan? We can probably agree that it's possible - Field Training Test Series That guy has achieved a fairly high level with his dog. 
- Is it possible to replicate those results?
- Is it possible to be more successful than he was/is?
- What kinds of dogs can be "successful" with this type of program - is it a different type of dog than with a traditional program?

And we don't know until people try. And we won't expect everyone who tries to succeed because that doesn't really seem to happen with any type of training program - not necessarily because the training doesn't work - but the time, money, space, access to helpers, access/opportunities to test/trial, dog health, human health, handler knowledge going into it. People drop out over time. Some dogs can't handle the work. There are reasons all dogs don't end up at the highest levels of any and all activities. 

ANd I don't expect a lot of people to want to do the R+ sort of experiment for many, many reasons. 

I know people who compete at the national level with R+ trained dogs in sports where that is extremely not the norm. What's common among those trainers? Those people were already successful at that level with other training methods before doing the experiment. They weren't blindly walking into it having to learn the sport and figure out how to train it - they knew exactly what end product they wanted with the training, they knew about judges, what the tests/trials required, what behaviors were desirable and undesirable, the level of perfection and detail wanted, etc...


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## TrailDogs

Here is a good article on training positively and why it can fail when instinct kicks in:
What is Real Clicker Training? | Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training


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## Claudia M

I have "trained" with Rose in the hallway from a puppy to retrieve and deliver to a heel. It was harder with Rose because;
1. she was the only dog in the house and had no one other dog to learn from, not did I know about any training places in the area where I could take her. That only happened about a year ago.
2. she was the first dog I ever trained and had no clue really of what I was doing. 

Rose has always had an inquisitive mind. She has always tried to figure out what I wanted from her and what was pleasing to me. She has also been a "follower" as far as seeing what other dogs did and learn from them. All it took for her was to see one dog go over the agility ramp. And then I said go and she did it with no problems. LOL That was the most exciting part of the obedience class which also has the agility equipment set up. 

Obedience (and I apologize in advance to anyone doing it) was boring for both myself and her. She knows the what my husband calls "circus tricks" of around, other side, heel, figure eights between my legs and all the other stuff. Nothing has ignited her more than the field. Since a 3 month old pup she has just loved to run the fields and play hide(my husband) and seek (Rose). 

I know that some have sarcastically written on this forum that I am "reinventing the wheel". Frankly as a working person I do not have the time to go thru weeks of FF. Nor do I have the heart for it. I barely touched her ears when I pretended to go thru the FF. Reason why I went straight to walking fetch. 

And no, I have never used "force" to teach my dogs anything or even to re-inforce something taught. I have only used force and by that I mean e-collar for a direct disobedience or for going after a rabbit, fox instead of the dead bird thrown out for the dog. They both know the meaning of the word NO and they both know the meaning of each comma when given before using the EC.


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## K9-Design

SwimDog said:


> I know people who compete at the national level with R+ trained dogs in sports where that is extremely not the norm. What's common among those trainers? Those people were already successful at that level with other training methods before doing the experiment. They weren't blindly walking into it having to learn the sport and figure out how to train it - they knew exactly what end product they wanted with the training, they knew about judges, what the tests/trials required, what behaviors were desirable and undesirable, the level of perfection and detail wanted, etc...


Yes -- this -- great post


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## K9-Design

Claudia M said:


> I know that some have sarcastically written on this forum that I am "reinventing the wheel".


I am not and was not being sarcastic. If you try to blaze your own path by ignoring or choosing bits and pieces of an established training program to hopefully attain the same goals, then you are figuratively reinventing the wheel. Or trying to. At the time you were struggling with some training concept by trying to piece it together yourself and not interested in following a program.



> Frankly as a working person I do not have the time to go thru weeks of FF.


"If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?" We all have our own time schedules and availability. Don't let that dictate the success of your training program.



> And no, I have never used "force" to teach my dogs anything or even to re-inforce something taught.


 and here is where you contradict yourself:


> I have only used force and by that I mean e-collar for a direct disobedience or for going after a rabbit, fox instead of the dead bird thrown out for the dog.


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## Claudia M

K9-Design said:


> I am not and was not being sarcastic. If you try to blaze your own path by ignoring or choosing bits and pieces of an established training program to hopefully attain the same goals, then you are figuratively reinventing the wheel. Or trying to. At the time you were struggling with some training concept by trying to piece it together yourself and not interested in following a program.
> 
> 
> 
> "If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?" We all have our own time schedules and availability. Don't let that dictate the success of your training program.
> 
> and here is where you contradict yourself:


Would you be so kind and just put me on ignore. I am not interested in any picking and fights. I can care less about the "established training programs". Anyone can put as may collars on the dog's butt and around its neck as he/she wants. I am not for it nor will I ever be. I rather let the dog be and find other activities for the dog then try to pursue my own high dreams. 

Yes time is a factor. I am not hiring professional help, and while I am seeking people who know more than me and you for direction one still needs the time to do that. 

So I appreciate your input but no thank you.


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## hotel4dogs

very interesting article!



TrailDogs said:


> Here is a good article on training positively and why it can fail when instinct kicks in:
> What is Real Clicker Training? | Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training


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## gdgli

Just an opinion on FF based upon my experience of force fetching my own dogs and friends dogs as well as observing dogs that the owners claim they have force fetched: Most have not done the job properly. Why do I say this? When the owner must say "Fetch" more than once, "what we have here is a failure to communicate". 

First, Guy Fornuto's definition is the definition I like best: The force in force fetch really means making the dog do it when he doesn't want to do it. It doesn't necessarily mean ear pinch, lip pinch, choke, etc. It means exerting pressure of any type to get the response. Ear pinch is just one option. Next, in training, I say fetch once. I don't say it a second time without pressure. The second action I take is to go toward my dog and apply the pressure while saying the command. Your dog is too far from you to apply pressure? Then why would you give a second command that may result in a refusal and therefore learned disobedience, i.e. learned irrelevance? Now for a great tool to enforce your command at a distance in training---collar fetch. The result: a dog that picks up the instant I say fetch. I like that. I really like it especially when the dog becomes reliable.

Can you get the same response without the pressure? I have trained two of my own dogs without FF. I got a pretty nice response but it is not quite the same response. 

Yes, FF typically takes me 6 weeks with my dogs but it is 6 weeks of total of 10-15 minutes a day.


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## Loisiana

gdgli said:


> First, Guy Fornuto's definition is the definition I like best: The force in force fetch really means making the dog do it when he doesn't want to do it. It doesn't necessarily mean ear pinch, lip pinch, choke, etc. It means exerting pressure of any type to get the response.


Yep, and that's why I say I use "force" in all of my training. Force doesn't have to be painful, it just means they have to do it. If I say sit and my dog doesn't sit, my usual response (if the dog is nearby) is to put my hand on the dog's rear and make it sit. Even if I just tell the dog to do something fun like spin (in a circle), it is still a behavior I taught them that they don't have the option on not complying with. So if my dog chooses not to spin, I put one hand on the collar, one hand one the muzzle, and in a circle they go.

This is why I've never really agreed with Bill Hillmann that what he calls "force fetch" is truly that. Obviously he is a man a million times more successful than I am; I am not questioning the effectiveness of it. But to me it doesn't really meet the definition of force fetch because it doesn't actually force the dog to do anything.


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## hotel4dogs

And according to Guy Fornuto's definition, it was not possible to FF Tito. He always wanted to do it. We haven't found anything he won't pick up, including slicker brushes, pieces of paper, really old lousy birds, pop cans, my cell phone, anything.

When Dan says the "F" word, his dogs respond instantly  .




gdgli said:


> Just an opinion on FF based upon my experience of force fetching my own dogs and friends dogs as well as observing dogs that the owners claim they have force fetched: Most have not done the job properly. Why do I say this? When the owner must say "Fetch" more than once, "what we have here is a failure to communicate".
> 
> First, Guy Fornuto's definition is the definition I like best: The force in force fetch really means making the dog do it when he doesn't want to do it. It doesn't necessarily mean ear pinch, lip pinch, choke, etc. It means exerting pressure of any type to get the response. Ear pinch is just one option. Next, in training, I say fetch once. I don't say it a second time without pressure. The second action I take is to go toward my dog and apply the pressure while saying the command. Your dog is too far from you to apply pressure? Then why would you give a second command that may result in a refusal and therefore learned disobedience, i.e. learned irrelevance? Now for a great tool to enforce your command at a distance in training---collar fetch. The result: a dog that picks up the instant I say fetch. I like that. I really like it especially when the dog becomes reliable.
> 
> Can you get the same response without the pressure? I have trained two of my own dogs without FF. I got a pretty nice response but it is not quite the same response.
> 
> Yes, FF typically takes me 6 weeks with my dogs but it is 6 weeks of total of 10-15 minutes a day.


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## hotel4dogs

I can not tell you how many times here at the pet hotel (I'm talking pet dogs of course) the owner stands in the lobby and tells the dog to sit...sit...sit...SIT...SIT...*SIT...SIT...SIT...SIT...SIT...SIT*. 
I tell them, "he heard you the first time. He's just trying to decide which time you are going to really MEAN it."

edit to add...Jodie, I think the problem is the word "force". It has a negative connotation. I prefer to think of it as "consequence based training". The consequences vary from a stern look to an e-collar, depending. For field, I think it should be called "compulsive retrieve", not "force fetch".



Loisiana said:


> Yep, and that's why I say I use "force" in all of my training. Force doesn't have to be painful, it just means they have to do it. If I say sit and my dog doesn't sit, my usual response (if the dog is nearby) is to put my hand on the dog's rear and make it sit. Even if I just tell the dog to do something fun like spin (in a circle), it is still a behavior I taught them that they don't have the option on not complying with. So if my dog chooses not to spin, I put one hand on the collar, one hand one the muzzle, and in a circle they go.
> 
> This is why I've never really agreed with Bill Hillmann that what he calls "force fetch" is truly that. Obviously he is a man a million times more successful than I am; I am not questioning the effectiveness of it. But to me it doesn't really meet the definition of force fetch because it doesn't actually force the dog to do anything.


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## Claudia M

Loisiana said:


> Yep, and that's why I say I use "force" in all of my training. Force doesn't have to be painful, it just means they have to do it. If I say sit and my dog doesn't sit, my usual response (if the dog is nearby) is to put my hand on the dog's rear and make it sit. Even if I just tell the dog to do something fun like spin (in a circle), it is still a behavior I taught them that they don't have the option on not complying with. So if my dog chooses not to spin, I put one hand on the collar, one hand one the muzzle, and in a circle they go.
> 
> This is why I've never really agreed with Bill Hillmann that what he calls "force fetch" is truly that. Obviously he is a man a million times more successful than I am; I am not questioning the effectiveness of it. But to me it doesn't really meet the definition of force fetch because it doesn't actually force the dog to do anything.


 I guess the word "force" is used in many ways. I don't really call force if I put my hand on the rear of the dog to sit. 
When working on heeling I would have Rose hold a bumper and heel with me back to the house. She knew she was getting a piece of fruit upon arrival in the house so she would take off ahead of me when I would say "Let's go inside". Decided to give her a job to do as we were walking nicely towards the house. I made the mistake of telling her no when she dropped it, except that by the time I was saying no she was already reaching for the bumper to pick it up again. :doh: So I learned that if she drops it to say fetch as she went for it. To some that may be a form of "force" but not in my opinion.


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## Loisiana

The difference to me is by putting my hand on the dogs rear, I am _forcing_ him to sit. Just telling the dog to do the command again isn't force because the dog could make the choice not to.


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## Claudia M

hotel4dogs said:


> I can not tell you how many times here at the pet hotel (I'm talking pet dogs of course) the owner stands in the lobby and tells the dog to sit...sit...sit...SIT...SIT...*SIT...SIT...SIT...SIT...SIT...SIT*.
> I tell them, "he heard you the first time. He's just trying to decide which time you are going to really MEAN it."
> 
> edit to add...Jodie, *I think the problem is the word "force".* It has a negative connotation. I prefer to think of it as "consequence based training". The consequences vary from a stern look to an e-collar, depending. For field, I think it should be called "compulsive retrieve", not "force fetch".


I agree with what you say about the meaning of the word as well as the "intensity" of force applied which as you said it can vary quite widely. 

I look at ear pinch and teaching the dog that they can avoid the pressure but complying as force. 
The CC has to be taught if used. One should not just go out there and start clicking the remote without teaching what the remote means. So I guess that can also be viewed as a force. And that also has a wide variety of levels. 

Each dog is different and they respond an learn differently at each level in different instances.


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## Alaska7133

TrailDogs said:


> Here is a good article on training positively and why it can fail when instinct kicks in:
> What is Real Clicker Training? | Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training


Excellent article! My girl Lucy's breeder is a clicker person. She's also a force fetch and an e-collar person. It all depends on the situation what she's training for. Match the need with the dog in the right context. To say that clicker training fits every need is not realistic.

Personally I can't do clicker training. I have a hard enough time walking and chewing gum, let alone training to remember the clicker.


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## FTGoldens

This isn't in response to any particular post, but it seems that one main purpose of FF is being lost in the thread ....

I consider the physical aspects of FF (i.e., put the object in your mouth and hold it until I say drop) to be of somewhat minor import to the overall purpose of FF. 
FF is a convenient way to introduce our dogs to pressure and teach them that compliance turns off the pressure (and that escape does not work). Actually, for some (most?) it's not an introduction to pressure because many use pressure of some sort to make the dog sit ... or any other command that we force the dog to comply with. (I cannot imagine a "pure" positive training program ... I guess that some have the time and patience to do it, but waiting around for pup to do a good deed and then rewarding it ... just not for me.)
FF also allows us to determine what level of pressure is necessary to elicit the proper response from our dog (too much pressure gets in the way of learning!!!). FF teaches the dog to respond to a command and COMPLETE THAT ACTION THROUGH an adverse stimulus. It teaches the dog that completion of the command is the most important thing at that moment.
In my opinion, that is a foundational element to future training.
FTGoldens


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## tippykayak

TrailDogs said:


> Here is a good article on training positively and why it can fail when instinct kicks in:
> What is Real Clicker Training? | Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training


The article is really interesting, but it repeats a common mistake over and over and over: 



> ...anyone who has trained a working dog realizes that there isn’t any treat in the world that will stop a Jack Russell from chasing a squirrel.


This statement is true, but it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of how reinforcement is used in a good training program, and he repeats it multiple times in the article. I have to imagine that he's intentionally setting up an inaccurate version of positive reinforcement in order to shoot it down, because he can't possibly be so uneducated as to not understand how it actually works in practice.

For example, I could rephrase it to make an equally misleading statement about aversives: 



> ...anyone who has trained a working dog realizes that there isn’t a nonabusive amount of discomfort that will will stop a Jack Russell from chasing a squirrel.


That's true, but that's not how you train with an e-collar, right? You don't just turn it up until it's so painful that it outbids instinct. Or do some people do that and think it's ethical, effective training? My understanding of how ethical, effective people use the e-collar is that they build the dog's habits with it so that relatively low levels of stimulation are effective, even in high-instinct situations.

When Jax was ~9 months old, he was chasing doves across a stream. He slipped on a wet rock, bashed his face on a boulder, and kept after the doves without ever breaking focus, fast enough that he was already back on his feet and after them again before I had a chance to inhale enough air to whistle him off. He hit that rock _hard_. I whistled him off the birds a second later to check the injury. He had scraped some fur below his eye clean off, and the eye swelled halfway shut over the next 30 minutes. That injury didn't even make him _pause_ when he was in the grip of his bird instinct. I shudder to think how much of an aversive I'd have to introduce if I decided to get into a bidding war with a live bird.

The whistle worked, though. However, it didn't work because I was using a treat to stop him from chasing the birds. I've never waved a cookie to get a distracted dog to recall, and I don't plan to start. It wasn't birds v. cookie. It was birds v. _habit_. Jax had 5 months of consistent repetition and reward building up to that moment. I think that's what works against instinct whether you use an e-collar or not.

Reinforcement, both positive and negative, work by building _habits_. Only an inexperienced person or a fool would be out there trying to outbid instinct with a cookie or an e-collar. I would put a person waving a hot dog at a Jack Russell in the same category as a person dialing up an e-collar to the highest setting in the same situation. Both don't understand how to build habits ethically and effectively.

So the article has a big problem in that it rests its entire argument about the need for aversives on the idea that you can't outbid a squirrel with a hot dog. But that's not what a good trainer is doing, regardless of philosophy. The question, which remains unaddressed in that article, is whether you can build a _habit_ strong enough to break through instinct without using discomfort or intimidation.


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## Sally's Mom

As always an interesting discussion...many years ago, I went to a local field lab breeder's training facility to watch some of their dogs in various stages of training. She did a demo with a male black lab happily heeling by her side before he was then put through his paces. I asked her naively how she got such a reliable recall, reliable retrieve, etc and her response was collar conditioning. Then she showed me a four month old people who retrieved a live flyer impeccably. My final lesson was force fetch, with the dog tied up short standing on a raised wooden platform. I personally believe as all have stated that one size fits all training just does not exist. And I also believe that most black labs are probably not as biddable as most Goldens. When I started in obedience I was told by a woman with three OTCH border collies that I would never have a reliable retrieve if I did not train with compulsion. All of my three CDX girls never refused to pick up something and bring it back to me. Of the seven dogs I have now, I know I can call six of them off any distraction. But I do have one that sounds like Claudia's Rose who is so distracted and predatory, that I do not trust her off my property. Running wildlife trumps my voice and her desire to come back to me.


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## Alaska7133

Training for an OTCH or CDX is different. Many obedience trainers compete in high levels of field trials such as Connie Cleveland the Janice Gunn. It would be sure nice to hear their opinions on training for field trials versus and OTCH.

By the way we did use the Connie Cleveland method of force fetch that she uses on her DVD for my girl. Connie uses force fetch for the dumb bell work to hold and retrieve as desired by the handler.

You can look up Connie and Janice's dogs on k9data to see all their titles.


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## Sally's Mom

I went to a Connie Cleveland where she demonstrated force fetch on a golden. Not only do you have to adjust the training to suit the dog, but the person doing the training has to be on board with the techniques as well. The trainer who helped me train my second girl initially only knew how to use compulsion. When we were teaching Laney, she used an ear pinch. That night her entire ear was excoriated and it horrified me. Since I only do what I do for fun for me and the dogs, I told my trainer I was done if the was how the training was going to go. We found another way, I was certainly happy. And none of my dogs ever refused to pick up a dumbbell in obedience. I recognize that obedience is not like field training at all. And I certainly have one dog that is not like the others to train and she may require a different technique.


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## TrailDogs

tippykayak said:


> The article is really interesting, but it repeats a common mistake over and over and over:
> This statement is true, but it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of how reinforcement is used in a good training program, and he repeats it multiple times in the article. I have to imagine that he's intentionally setting up an inaccurate version of positive reinforcement in order to shoot it down, because he can't possibly be so uneducated as to not understand how it actually works in practice.


Well, I am reading this differently. My take on the article is that when the rubber meets the road and the dog's instinct kicks in you better have more than one tool in your box because habit may not always prevail. 
Reward based training has a huge role in teaching and instilling behaviors, and that, in conjunction with consequences for a true lack of effort to comply to a known command, gives one better odds in the face of the dog's natural behaviors taking over.
I also believe, aside from this article, that pressure and aversives are defined by the animal. The epic fail of Tillikum is a great example. That animal had a tremendous amount of pressure in the form of social isolation, removing him from his natural environment etc., yet Seaworld will tell you he was positively trained.
I know a golden that is positively trained and has an MH, again, the methods that trainer uses would be considered high pressure to my dog. She would not do well at all with his style of training. Nor would a lot of dogs that I know.


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## tippykayak

TrailDogs said:


> Well, I am reading this differently. My take on the article is that when the rubber meets the road and the dog's instinct kicks in you better have more than one tool in your box because habit may not always prevail.
> Reward based training has a huge role in teaching and instilling behaviors, and that, in conjunction with consequences for a true lack of effort to comply to a known command, gives one better odds in the face of the dog's natural behaviors taking over.


I think the argument you make here is much more plausible and persuasive than the one made in the article. The article says that a hot dog won't get a dog to ignore its instinct (true). But neither will a reasonable amount of discomfort. What you're saying here is a lot more nuanced, and while I don't agree with you, I do think it's a reasonable position to have on dog training.



TrailDogs said:


> I also believe, aside from this article, that pressure and aversives are defined by the animal. The epic fail of Tillikum is a great example. That animal had a tremendous amount of pressure in the form of social isolation, removing him from his natural environment etc., yet Seaworld will tell you he was positively trained.


Here, I'm not with you at all. Orcas appear to become aggressive when kept in captivity. The style of training probably has nothing to do with it. It's most likely due to the psychology of a wild animal who is being kept in a confined space. Wild orcas almost never have confrontations with humans, but captive orcas have repeatedly injured and killed their trainers. I highly doubt that Tilikum would have been less dangerous had they added electrified tank water to his training regimen, since it seems to have come down to the fact that he is a wild animal confined in a tiny space.



TrailDogs said:


> I know a golden that is positively trained and has an MH, again, the methods that trainer uses would be considered high pressure to my dog. She would not do well at all with his style of training. Nor would a lot of dogs that I know.


I think this conversation has gotten really muddy with the multiple uses of the words "positive" and "pressure." I absolutely think you can put a huge amount of "pressure" on a dog without ever introducing an aversive. I've seen many examples of psychotic dogs who seem absolutely miserable and frantic at agility trials, and I don't like the way they were trained, even though it was relatively aversive-free. You can make a dog miserable without ever intimidating him or applying discomfort. It's not black and white, where everybody who won't hit, choke, pinch, or shock a dog is an effective "positive" trainer.

I've always disliked the term "positive trainer," because it relies on the common use of the word "positive" (i.e., "nice"), which is not what the word "positive" means in behavioral science.

The question that interests me is not whether you can ruin a dog without an aversive, because you clearly can. The question that interest me is whether need consequences in the form of positive punishment (i.e., adding something unpleasant) in order to have truly precise and reliable behavior in the face of high distraction. Having seen lots of high drive dogs trained without those things who offer precise and reliable behavior in high distraction situations, I'm not convinced on the need for those "consequences."

I think those consequences are primarily helpful because they prevent the dog from self-rewarding, not because they make the behavior unpleasant _per se_. For example, if I call the dog and he ignores me, a nick on the collar might prevent him from going off and enjoying himself, essentially rewarding himself for ignoring me. And then I can reward him when he recalls properly. Next time, he would probably be more likely not to ignore me. Right? That would be a totally reasonable use of an aversive. 

The place where I think I might not be on the same page as many others in this thread is right at that nick. I don't think it's a crucial part of the training, so long as the dog is still prevented from self-rewarding. When a dog is chasing a squirrel and turns on a dime when the owner whistles, is it really because he fears a nick? Or is it because he has practiced that behavior over and over until it reinforcement makes it stronger than the instinct to chase? I think it's the second one.


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## Megora

Reading Janice's posts above... it touches on what I posted a few days ago and removed on second thought....

There are people in obedience (particularly old-school people, people with other breeds like shepherds and border collies, etc).... who will tell you that you will not have a reliable retrieve without FF (otherwise known as ear-pinching the heck out of your dog until he learns you'll stop hurting him when he puts his mouth on the dumbbell). 

My instructor with Jacks was a Belgian tuveran lady and somebody who trains under somebody else in my area who uses a lot of force type and "ouch" type handling in training. 

Note - Jacks learned a very solid heel and focus with me taking classes with this lady, so there was a huge benefit to taking these classes as opposed to me freaking out and going elsewhere. I did what I recommend other people do... grow a thick skin and be able to stand up for your dogs when told to do stuff that you WILL NOT do with your dogs. A lot of people taking classes at different places tend to go all submissive and whine and cry about stuff outside of class. 

I was strongly opposed to using FF with dogs, because back then I would sit and watch the Open/Utility class before the classes I had with Jacks and the instructor of these classes really went heavy with FF and all the people in her class followed that philosophy. Both Jacks and I would be sitting there shrinking into the floor as people attacked their dogs' ears making them scream. 

When I read the reactions of people on this forum and elsewhere and their reasons for going with subpar training programs that use no aversives.... I would gather that they probably were only exposed to the above kind of training as far as people using aversives. I probably don't blame them but have to say that there's a lot of training programs out there which are completely balanced while primarily leaning positive which I think most of these people would feel comfortable with. 

The lady I take private lessons from is sometimes promoted as a purely positive person, but she is actually a balanced trainer. She uses corrections in training - with progressively stronger corrections when needed. A good example was a fun match where a client's dog decided to blow off his owner and run around the ring and go after another dog. The instructor made like a herding dog (lol) rushing out there to go after that dog and put the fear of God in that dog. She strongly corrected him (including pinning).

The same instructor has and will use FF on a dog when required. She described a small breed dog (I think it was a Papillion or something similar) who would not take a dumbbell in its mouth. The instructor resorted to using FF (not to the extent of having the dog screaming) in one quick training session and the dog was a retriever after that. 


***** Where this all applies to field.... I guess my gut feeling is there's probably more people who would be into field training if the instructors and methods were more diverse and less reliant on ecollars and FF right from the start on 6 month old dogs or whatever. That perception is there, particularly with those trainers who maintain that a dog will never be truly reliable without an ecollar and trained to retrieve with FF.

**** This is a side comment too btw.  I read between the lines when people tell me that obedience isn't fun for the dogs and it's just boring and so on. It comes down to the ability of the owners to make it fun for their dogs. People get more enjoyment out of things that are effortless and they get to see a clear expression of PLAY from their dogs. And the more successful the dogs are, the more fun it is for the owners. When I read between the lines and watch the dogs being trained - those dogs who offer less enjoyment and precision while obedience training... those are the ones whose owners shrug off the sport. When those same people get dogs and train with people who are able to draw out the best in both the owners and the dogs.... that's when you see a complete change of perspective on the sport and people actually enjoying training and competing with the dogs. 

That above thing is a huge reason to encourage and promote good training clubs and good instructors. They are the ones who will draw out the best in people new to the sport of obedience.... and they will grow the future of the sport. 

When you have training locations and instructors who downplay obedience and repeatedly tell people that obedience isn't meant to be fun for the dogs. This is really bad for the sport. And I really would hope people don't train at locations like that or people like that.  

I have to think it's the same in other sports. If the instructors don't make it rewarding for the owners (which primarily is seeing their dogs have fun + seeing RESULTS) - that will affect how far those people go in those sports.


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## John G

Megora, great post! Glad you finally your thoughts. Personally, I agree with much of what you say. 

Training should be fun for both the dog and trainer. Not all dogs need force to be "reliable".


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## Zerpersande

John G said:


> For those that believe …why?
> For those that think that you don't…why?


I’m not a professional trainer but my goal was to have an off-leash dog. The e-collar let him know I could reach out and touch him regardless of how rar away he was. The shock feature was used sparingly. The ‘manner mode’ sufficed after that. But I have a new pup now and am wondering if I can avoid using it this time. And atbthe same time am wondering why to avoid a tool that works.


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## SRW

Zerpersande said:


> And atbthe same time am wondering why to avoid a tool that works.


Yes, why would you do that?


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## Megora

Why zap when you don't have to? Consistency on your part + guidance of the older dog work wonders.


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## Zerpersande

SRW said:


> Yes, why would you do that?


That was rhetorical but the answer is pressure/disapproval from society in general and the pro-PP females in my house that, I kid you not, think that saying ‘Ehh-Ehh!’ to a 4 m.o. puppy is going to scar it for life. My opinion, on the other hand, is that my skin crawls to seea dog following its owner around like a crackhead badgering his/her dealer around hoping a hit will fall out of a hole in the pocket.


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## SRW

Zerpersande said:


> My opinion, on the other hand, is that my skin crawls to seea dog following its owner around like a crackhead badgering his/her dealer around hoping a hit will fall out of a hole in the pocket.


I share that opinion. I'm also immune to societal pressure, in fact I'm usually not even aware of it.


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## Zerpersande

SRW said:


> I share that opinion. I'm also immune to societal pressure, in fact I'm usually not even aware of it.


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## Zerpersande

There are certainly many issues of which I am unaware due either a) living as an American expat in Japan for the last 30 years and being (thankfully) out of the loop, or b) living as an American expat in Japan for the last 30 years and only learning the language well enough to get my point across and thus (thankfully) avoiding the loop. However, where societal pressures influence my areas of involvement I generally listen to arguments until they become irrational. So, yeah, we have similar opinions on the matter.


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## GoldenDude

Zerpersande said:


> I’m not a professional trainer but my goal was to have an off-leash dog. The e-collar let him know I could reach out and touch him regardless of how rar away he was. The shock feature was used sparingly. The ‘manner mode’ sufficed after that. But I have a new pup now and am wondering if I can avoid using it this time. And atbthe same time am wondering why to avoid a tool that works.


I don't care what technique an owner uses to train an off-leash dog, so long as it's trained. Far too often off leash dogs are ill behaved and not under any semblance of owner control. In those instances, I reserve the right to teach an offleash dog some manners by any means I want should it approach me or my dog without my permission.


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## Zerpersande

GoldenDude said:


> I don't care what technique an owner uses to train an off-leash dog, so long as it's trained. Far too often off leash dogs are ill behaved and not under any semblance of owner control. In those instances, I reserve the right to teach an offleash dog some manners by any means I want should it approach me or my dog without my permission.


First, you could reserve whatever rights you want but it doesn’t give you the flexibility of ‘any means you want’. Second, off-leash is fully legal where I live, but my dog never, even once, aporoached anyone or anyone’s dog. It was extremely common for other dogs to lose their freakin’ minds from across the road and my dog often didn’t even glance at them. A neighbor’s dog got out from their house once, a little ankle-biter so common here, and it came storming toward my dog. I told my dog to sit and we both just watched the little thing dance around us and bark till the neighbor came out and collected it. Felt sorry for them. They apologized constantly for their uncontrollable yappy mutt. Embarrassing for them to see how a dog can truly be.


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## GoldenDude

Zerpersande said:


> First, you could reserve whatever rights you want but it doesn’t give you the flexibility of ‘any means you want’. Second, off-leash is fully legal where I live, but my dog never, even once, aporoached anyone or anyone’s dog. It was extremely common for other dogs to lose their freakin’ minds from across the road and my dog often didn’t even glance at them. A neighbor’s dog got out from their house once, a little ankle-biter so common here, and it came storming toward my dog. I told my dog to sit and we both just watched the little thing dance around us and bark till the neighbor came out and collected it. Felt sorry for them. They apologized constantly for their uncontrollable yappy mutt. Embarrassing for them to see how a dog can truly be.


Someone's right to have an off leash dog ends at my personal space. Far too many people who allow their dog off leash have zero control over the dog. Wanting an off leash dog is awesome. But they need to be trained. Too many owners who want them, don't bother to train them. That's why I don't care what training technique they use so long as they train them and, yes, I absolutely do have the flexibility for "any means (I) want." I will protect myself and my dog from an unwanted interaction with an off leash dog.


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## Zerpersande

GoldenDude said:


> 1- Someone's right to have an off leash dog ends at my personal space.
> 2- Far too many people who allow their dog off leash have zero control over the dog.
> 3- Wanting an off leash dog is awesome. But they need to be trained.
> 4- Too many owners who want them, don't bother to train them.
> 5- I absolutely do have the flexibility for "any means (I) want." .


1- Agree
2- Wouldn’t know about your location but your general attitude smacks of USA. Given that I chose to expatriate (read ‘fed up and left’) about 30 years ago I don’t know the current situation.
3- Again, agree.
4- See #2
5- Unless the laws have changed significantly, (which they may have with so many Americans justifying their outrageous behavior with ‘I don’t feel safe!), citizens don’t get to chose from any possible behavior they wish.


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## GoldenDude

Zerpersande said:


> 1- Agree
> 2- Wouldn’t know about your location but your general attitude smacks of USA. Given that I chose to expatriate (read ‘fed up and left’) about 30 years ago I don’t know the current situation.
> 3- Again, agree.
> 4- See #2
> 5- Unless the laws have changed significantly, (which they may have with so many Americans justifying their outrageous behavior with ‘I don’t feel safe!), citizens don’t get to chose from any possible behavior they wish.


I'm glad you found happiness in another country. We all deserve to be happy. Japan is a lovely country. I enjoy visiting my Japanese relatives and was bummed to miss my trip in 2020. I'm hoping the ban on tourists is lifted soon.


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## SRW

Zerpersande said:


> (which they may have with so many Americans justifying their outrageous behavior with ‘I don’t feel safe!)


 
There is plenty of that here but it's not exclusive to the U.S.


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## Zerpersande

SRW said:


> There is plenty of that here but it's not exclusive to the U.S.


I won’t say that isn’t true but from what I have seen the ‘current American attitude’ is a running joke for a lot of other nationalities. Could be cases of the pot /kettle scenario though.


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## Zerpersande

GoldenDude said:


> I'm hoping the ban on tourists is lifted soon.


I like the ban right now. The US has improved greatly but still the number of daily infections is about 300% that of Japan’s. To put it in terms of this thread, the US seems to have a lot more poorly trained dogs running off-leash. 😂


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## SRW

Zerpersande said:


> I won’t say that isn’t true but from what I have seen the ‘current American attitude’ is a running joke for a lot of other nationalities. Could be cases of the pot /kettle scenario though.


What you see on corporate media is far from reality.


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## diane0905

Just by way of conversation, I went to Japan for the Nagano Olympics. It was one of the best trips we’ve ever taken. 

I use an e-collar for field training and off leash on the meadows in the mountains just having fun. I hardly ever feel the need to employ it. Mine is set at a 2 or 3 and I can put it against my skin and feel zero zap. It tingles a little — less than a tens unit. I’m surprised he even notices it, but he does. We have not had a dire situation where I need to use it, but if it’s get hit by a car/attacked by a bear or push the button — the button will be pushed. Robin McFarlane has some excellent e-collar training videos. I also bought Connie Cleveland and Pat Nolan’s. 

I had a recent situation where a neighbor told me she turned her young German Shepherd loose in our watershed area, he chased a deer, and ended up going over 4 lanes of busy traffic before she caught him. She also told me she didn’t have the heart to use an e-collar. Makes no sense to me. I prefer to have backup. 

I hate when neighbors use e-collars around cars and have their dogs off leash. There’s one in our neighborhood who bounces all over the place and comes right up to us. Nice dog, but I find it impolite to let a loose dog run up to a leashed dog. It’s unsafe also.

I love visiting other countries and I love my own country.


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## SRW

E collars the most effective, efficient and humane training tools ever invented.
As an added bonus, they seem to inflict a lot of pain and anguish and those that know nothing about them and have never / will never use them.


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## Zerpersande

SRW said:


> What you see on corporate media is far from reality.


This smacks of the cries of ‘fake news’. My observations go beyond this and are based more on what I have heard from Germans, Canadians, Australians, Swedes, British, Iranian and of course the Japanese.


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## SRW

Zerpersande said:


> This smacks of the cries of ‘fake news’


There’s plenty of that and quite often what is referred to as fake news is not.
A loud obnoxious minority can reflect badly on any group. This is particularly true when the media is pushing an agenda.
I’ll wager that the people you’ve talked to are gathering their opinions based on what they see in urban areas.


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## Zerpersande

diane0905 said:


> Just by way of conversation, I went to Japan for the Nagano Olympics. It was one of the best trips we’ve ever taken.
> 
> I use an e-collar for field training and off leash on the meadows in the mountains just having fun.


I went to Nagano in the late spring/early summer. Tried to sleep with the wibdows open but it was too cold.

Off-leash training was tough here. Very little appropriate space. I used some rice fields in the ‘off-season’. This got him used to the fact that I could ‘reach out’, and since he was always just walking beside me, or in a small field no more than 50m away, he was never tempted. A lot of his off-leash time was spent running beside my bicycle. He stayed locked tight at those times.

Thanks, I’ll check those sources. I don’t want to make mistakes but I do want an off-leash buddy.


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## Megora

Zerpersande said:


> This smacks of the cries of ‘fake news’. My observations go beyond this and are based more on what I have heard from Germans, Canadians, Australians, Swedes, British, Iranian and of course the Japanese.


🥴 That of course makes it all legit?



> I had a recent situation where a neighbor told me she turned her young German Shepherd loose in our watershed area, he chased a deer, and ended up going over 4 lanes of busy traffic before she caught him. She also told me she didn’t have the heart to use an e-collar. Makes no sense to me. I prefer to have backup.


No offense, but this has nothing to do with whether she put a zap collar on her dog to zap him as needed. This had to do with the daftness of your neighbor for taking a young (and probably untrained) dog to a big open space and turning him loose. Dogs get lost in nature all the time. Based on some information that I've seen, owners end up in serious danger chasing after their dogs who SHOULD NEVER have been off leash. Doesn't matter if they strap a collar on their untrained dog or not.

Plenty of dogs go stray wearing zap collars (those invisible fencing collars, but even the other thing). Because of their owners lacking the perception of whether something is a good idea or not.

If I take my dogs off leash, I know I can get them to come to my side immediately without saying a word. If I did not have that faith in my dog's training, they would stay on leash.

Worst memory from my childhood was running down a street in winter (snow almost up to my knees in some spots). I was barefoot, wearing shorts and a tshirt, no coat - because I'd run out the front door after my dog who had gotten loose and was running for the nearest main road. I ran all the way down to that main road and stood in the middle of the road stopping traffic until my siblings caught my dog who had been running back and forth from one side to the other. I had frost bite on my feet after that - and literally remember that pain from my feet warming up after all that.

I did that for my dog and would again, but training makes such heroics unnecessary.

There's people jumping to the kooky idea that the only thing they need is to strap a zap collar on their dog to get him to obey. But NO. You have to train your dog first. And most dogs do not need the collar after the training. Even with deer and rabbits around.

I can call my dogs off rabbits and deer. They are very birdy + obsessed with kids, but likewise I can call them off the cranes that camp out in our yard or the kids across the street. This is where training gets you.

And having good dogs.

I'm allowing that many people have dogs whose skulls are mighty thick considering they have no brains in there.


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## Zerpersande

Megora said:


> 🥴 That of course makes it all legit?


I was responding to say that my observations were not from ‘corporate media’ but face-to-face human interactions. Admittedly my experiences are not a huge sample size, but the opinions are pretty much negative and accumulated over a 30 year term of meeting expats from many countries.


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## SRW

Zerpersande said:


> I was responding to say that my observations were not from ‘corporate media’ but face-to-face human interactions. Admittedly my experiences are not a huge sample size, but the opinions are pretty much negative and accumulated over a 30 year term of meeting expats from many countries.


Come to Northeast Iowa sometime.


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## Zerpersande

SRW said:


> Come to Northeast Iowa sometime.


Back in about ‘90/91 I drove from NC to Ames to see Genesis play a concert there. Lots of space Is all I remember. Pleasant enough place though.


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## Megora

Zerpersande said:


> I was responding to say that my observations were not from ‘corporate media’ but face-to-face human interactions. Admittedly my experiences are not a huge sample size, but the opinions are pretty much negative and accumulated over a 30 year term of meeting expats from many countries.


Are you referring to how people keep and train their dogs in the US..... or something else? 

Because people will yack about anything if they think they have an audience. Some of it has merit. Some does not.


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## diane0905

Megora said:


> 🥴 That of course makes it all legit?
> 
> 
> 
> No offense, but this has nothing to do with whether she put a zap collar on her dog to zap him as needed. This had to do with the daftness of your neighbor for taking a young (and probably untrained) dog to a big open space and turning him loose. Dogs get lost in nature all the time. Based on some information that I've seen, owners end up in serious danger chasing after their dogs who SHOULD NEVER have been off leash. Doesn't matter if they strap a collar on their untrained dog or not.
> 
> Plenty of dogs go stray wearing zap collars (those invisible fencing collars, but even the other thing). Because of their owners lacking the perception of whether something is a good idea or not.
> 
> If I take my dogs off leash, I know I can get them to come to my side immediately without saying a word. If I did not have that faith in my dog's training, they would stay on leash.
> 
> Worst memory from my childhood was running down a street in winter (snow almost up to my knees in some spots). I was barefoot, wearing shorts and a tshirt, no coat - because I'd run out the front door after my dog who had gotten loose and was running for the nearest main road. I ran all the way down to that main road and stood in the middle of the road stopping traffic until my siblings caught my dog who had been running back and forth from one side to the other. I had frost bite on my feet after that - and literally remember that pain from my feet warming up after all that.
> 
> I did that for my dog and would again, but training makes such heroics unnecessary.
> 
> There's people jumping to the kooky idea that the only thing they need is to strap a zap collar on their dog to get him to obey. But NO. You have to train your dog first. And most dogs do not need the collar after the training. Even with deer and rabbits around.
> 
> I can call my dogs off rabbits and deer. They are very birdy + obsessed with kids, but likewise I can call them off the cranes that camp out in our yard or the kids across the street. This is where training gets you.
> 
> And having good dogs.
> 
> I'm allowing that many people have dogs whose skulls are mighty thick considering they have no brains in there.


Offense hardly ever taken. If I’m going to get my feelings hurt, it’s more likely to be by someone I at least know and either love and/or admire. No insult intended, of course. 

I think mine would come back from a deer or what have you, but prefer to have the e-collar in place if he’s off leash. It’s one more safety backup. To be honest, we haven’t had the deer or bear occasion happen while off leash. He perks up for squirrels (a lot of them are white up at our mountain place!), but doesn’t chase as I give him the with me command. He sticks relatively close to us when up in the mountains unless I’m sending him off to retrieve something. Nothing is a 100% guarantee. New situations are encountered in life. Lots of training has occurred. Field trainer tells me he has great recall.

Logan loves children also (but doesn’t knock them over) and ducks are his favorite. 

Agree about the neighbor. The dog also slipped out of his regular collar easily while we were down there. It was way too loose. The rope leash was really frayed also, so there’s another incident chance in the future. I’m not perfect, but I don’t get her negatively commenting on e-collars while telling that story. She can dislike them (or do what she wants in life), but it would be nice if she had the sense to keep her dog on his lead given she’s already experienced life situations. I just remembered the dog also knocked down an elderly lady in our neighborhood in her own driveway.


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## Megora

diane0905 said:


> Agree about the neighbor. The dog also slipped out of his regular collar easily while we were down there. It was way too loose. The rope leash was really frayed also, so there’s another incident chance in the future. I’m not perfect, but I don’t get her negatively commenting on e-collars while telling that story. She can dislike them (or do what she wants in life), but it would be nice if she had the sense to keep her dog on his lead given she’s already experienced life situations. I just remembered the dog also knocked down an elderly lady in our neighborhood in her own driveway.


Speaking charitably here, I can understand people's desire to see their dogs have off leash time. I firmly believe this is something that dogs need.

But I think we all know that dog training is not just strap something on and letting the dog run loose. There's recall practice and 1-3 years of obedience training before a dog is very sound and trustworthy.

GSD's are herding dogs + bred for protection so there's some additional stuff going on as well as far as letting her dog off leash.

ETA this is probably going to sound snarky, but funny thing to mention is the people who are closest to me can never offend me. Because we are close enough to argue or we understand where we’re coming from. People who mean nothing to me or who I do not respect it may be fairly easy for me to walk away thinking that person is offensive and blow them off. I think most of us cut more slack for the people we are close to or friends with.


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## SRW

Megora said:


> There's recall practice and 1-3 years of obedience training before a dog is very sound and trustworthy.


1 year maybe, if it takes 2 or 3 years to get solid obedience there is something lacking.


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## GoldenDude

Megora said:


> If I take my dogs off leash, I know I can get them to come to my side immediately without saying a word. If I did not have that faith in my dog's training, they would stay on leash.


That's because you're a responsible dog owner. I truly wish most people who want their dogs off leash were. The reality is that most are not.


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## GoldenDude

Zerpersande said:


> I like the ban right now. The US has improved greatly but still the number of daily infections is about 300% that of Japan’s. To put it in terms of this thread, the US seems to have a lot more poorly trained dogs running off-leash. 😂


It will be lifted one day and I'll be excited to see my relatives after such a long time apart.


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## Zerpersande

GoldenDude said:


> It will be lifted one day and I'll be excited to see my relatives after such a long time apart.


The ban isn’t total right now but the exceptions are limited. For Japanese citizens returning the quarantine period varies from 1 to 2 weeks.
What part of Japan are your relatives living in?


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## GoldenDude

Zerpersande said:


> The ban isn’t total right now but the exceptions are limited. For Japanese citizens returning the quarantine period varies from 1 to 2 weeks.
> What part of Japan are your relatives living in?


Most are in Hokkaido. They miss their Momotarō, which is my family nickname since I grew up in Georgia. 🤣


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## Zerpersande

I really like Hokkaido. Very open and spacious. With the spaces often filled with snow.


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## Megora

SRW said:


> 1 year maybe, if it takes 2 or 3 years to get solid obedience there is something lacking.


Perhaps. However I see a lot of people who get very impatient with the length of time that actual training takes. And so then they cut corners, and we hear about them letting their dogs off leash and chasing them down the street.


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## SRW

Megora said:


> However I see a lot of people who get very impatient with the length of time that actual training takes.


There’s a reason why most TV shows are 22 minutes long.
A huge percentage of dog owners simply bribe the dog to do what they want it to do. There is no teaching and no training.


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## green branch

This used to be a nice thread in 2015. Zerpersande, I think there are many people who are still interested in this topic. So far, not much to learn from the new posts. Old ones are good.


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## K9-Design

Megora said:


> But I think we all know that dog training is not just strap something on and letting the dog run loose. There's recall practice and 1-3 years of obedience training before a dog is very sound and trustworthy.


Basic recall intro and e-collar conditioning to "here" = 1 month, tops


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## SRW

K9-Design said:


> Basic recall intro and e-collar conditioning to "here" = 1 month, tops


You obviously know nothing about "Positive Training".

Neither do I.

Zap and Grab Dittos


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## Megora

K9-Design said:


> Basic recall intro and e-collar conditioning to "here" = 1 month, tops


Mine are off leash from the time they are babies.... obedience training is there + dog pack training from the other dogs. Prior dogs couldn't be offleash until they were 5-7 years old and I HATED that. So it was motivation to get the next dogs sorted out from the time they were babies. 

My response was w/r to people whose dogs did not have that start, do not have a dog pack to help, etc. I think it would take time - especially if owners are inexperienced. Hence 1-3 years. 

If you think that these people can fix all their problems by strapping an ecollar on and putting in a month (4 weeks of training).... sure, go ahead and _tell _people that. 

ETA - I only responded in connection having responded to this post years ago. I no longer read field forum threads so I don't normally make the mistake in commenting. When this thread was "woken up" a month ago, the comments seemed to be regarding basic dog training.


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## SRW

Megora said:


> If you think that these people can fix all their problems by strapping an ecollar on and putting in a month (4 weeks of training).... sure, go ahead and _tell _people that.


The only people that think or say that are those that hate e collars.


Megora said:


> dog pack training from the other dogs.


What?


Megora said:


> Prior dogs couldn't be offleash until they were 5-7 years old


WHAT?


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## K9-Design

Tucker, Fisher, Bally, Brix & Slater all had excellent recalls and off leash manners without collar conditioning. They were programmed from day one to have lots of off leash experience, lots of food reinforcement for being near me, and a good butt whoopin' or two for ignoring me in their formative months. All immediately attended obedience classes as young puppies (2-4 months old) and continued some sort of training their whole lives. Tucker never was CC'd, Fisher was 5 years old and a UD before I bought a collar, Slater, Bally and Brix got CC'd at about a year old not for a recall but for field training skills. 
That's all well and good but 99% of pet trainers, simply aren't me, and that will not be their experience. 
I do both field and pet obedience board & train. After the first pet obedience client who refused to let me CC their unruly and quite frankly, stupid puppy, who ate everything and had to be on a long line, I said FORGET IT --- EVERYBODY is getting collar conditioned if they are here at my house, pets included. CC to just a recall is quick, easy, and drama-free. It's so easy to transition a new owner to using it and they immediately have off-leash control that they would NEVER be able to accomplish on their own without it. It's a no-brainer.


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## Megora

K9-Design said:


> Tucker, Fisher, Bally, Brix & Slater all had excellent recalls and off leash manners without collar conditioning. They were programmed from day one to have lots of off leash experience, lots of food reinforcement for being near me, and a good butt whoopin' or two for ignoring me in their formative months. All immediately attended obedience classes as young puppies (2-4 months old) and continued some sort of training their whole lives.


Sames, Anney.

Personal experience with the first 3 dogs... by the time we knew enough to really value the early work with dogs, it was already too late. The dogs knew what it was like to run like the wind. Even my Danny who was basically 2 legged with his bad elbows could fly and he was expert at the keep away game. I HATED it.

Would I have done ecollar training with them if in the same position - probably would have helped. With a good teacher working with us and actively training with somebody who smacked our hands or upside the head if we overdid it or were just nagging the dogs.

People I met through training + training with much better trainers than myself with the dogs that followed after those first three meant whatever mistakes I made with them, at least I didn't make the same mistakes I did with those first 3 dogs.

But responding to somebody whose dog has already been running around, running up to people and dogs and so on.... that's not gonna stop if he straps an ecollar on his dog and starts pressing a button. It takes time not just to train the dog, but to train the human to train the dog. To know how to moderate force when using force based on the dog they are working with..... so on. A dog that already knows what its like to run + has it in his head that he's in huge trouble running needs to be reprogrammed to stay close or check in or leave it on command and they get to keep having as much fun as they want running around.


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## diane0905

My first Golden was off leash on the beach from about 11 months forward. It wasn’t some great job I had done with recall training, although I did work with him on it. He simply would not let me out of his sight. Where I went, he followed. He would chase seabirds, but always kept me on his radar. 

Logan has been worked with a lot for recall (and in general), but has way more of an independent spirit. I do think it hurt us we both missed our first year of getting any help in training during the pandemic except a six week course with a halti lead R+ trainer. I also think he’s just not that dog who freaks out if he doesn’t see me. Luke developed a bit of separation anxiety after our other dog died. 

I decided to CC Logan because he had started blowing me off about 20% of the time for recall. I’d have to look back to see how old he was. I think around 18 months old. His recall has been stellar since and I love him being able to run freely in areas I feel are more safe (no vehicular traffic.) 

I felt bad this past week at on vacation because I had him off leash on a soccer field and park area playing Chuck-it. I really hurled it far and Logan took off like lightning to get it. Logan blew past the ball and my husband said, “Honey, he’s not coming back!” in an excited tone that made me react/think he was just taking off. So, I yelled “Here!” (wasn’t sure he heard me, but didn’t have time to dwell on that in alligator land) and I turned it up a bit (4) and stimulated him and he immediately turned back. When I told him to fetch the ball again I was almost up on it and the orange ball was white because it was covered in sand. I think he just didn’t see it and blew by. 

I gave my husband a good butt whoopin’. 😅

Anyway. I’m glad he’s e-collar conditioned. I haven’t had many regrets and those I have had I think are from me not appreciating how helpful a tool it is and being frustrated/feeling inept at times I wasn’t getting him where he needed to be without it. I don’t think there’s anything better for teaching recall. 

I noticed at Kiawah (where we were on vacation) e-collars are prohibited on the beach and they will fine you for using one. I let Logan off leash in the far end of the beach. It’s allowed in some portions and the season hadn’t started really. Nobody was around. I had a long line on him where a leash was required and was wondering if they would fine me for a longer leash. They aren’t playing. It said $400 and I was not inclined to donate. 

I’m thankful for Anney’s post not to nag dogs. I know there’s a reason that keeps coming up as far as I’m concerned. I’m determined to do better at that.


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## Megora

diane0905 said:


> My first Golden was off leash on the beach from about 11 months forward. It wasn’t some great job I had done with recall training, although I did work with him on it. He simply would not let me out of his sight. Where I went, he followed. He would chase seabirds, but always kept me on his radar.





diane0905 said:


> Logan has been worked with a lot for recall (and in general), but has way more of an independent spirit. I do think it hurt us we both missed our first year of getting any help in training during the pandemic except a six week course with a halti lead R+ trainer. I also think he’s just not that dog who freaks out if he doesn’t see me. Luke developed a bit of separation anxiety after our other dog died.


I read the two above quotes and pondered on it a little bit, because one of the worst (and I mean the worst) issues that pop up in dog training is "crutches". Basically when my sister and I started training dogs way back then - she was a teenager and I was a preteen and we both were heavily reliant on leashes as a way to keep the dogs with us.

Some of that was because these were dogs who had shown tendencies to run away whenever they wanted and not come back until they wanted. It took years to unravel those anxieties which Mare and I felt about not having a leash in our hands. And not tightening up that leash frantically when moving with the dog.

The leash I use for obedience today is the one I inherited from my sister when she quit the game (she got married and had a kid). It has a knot in it which my sister was trained to hold her hand on, to keep her from tightening up the leash. If she could have heeled by hanging onto the dog's collar, she would have. 

For me, it was less severe, but I still remember that feeling like I couldn't control my dog without the leash. That feeling motivated me to really work hard training offleash heeling to baby pups and recalls and all the other stuff off leash very early so I avoided sliding back into that crutch.

Long winded question finally getting to the point.... do you feel the ecollar is a crutch?

Do you feel like he would run if the ecollar wasn't on.... and you'd have no ability to get him back?

That's something I've been curious about w/r to pet training conversations concerning ecollars - when people are doing it the right way.

Obviously field people have to get their dogs off the ecollars, because the dogs have to be on a buckle collar when running in tests. Or that's something I vaguely recall.

But what is your feeling on it?

Have you discussed or worked on a bridge (gap bridge?) to get away from having an ecollar on your dog? Or a long line on him?


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## diane0905

I had the long line on him because I’d get a $400 fine if I didn’t. Yes, I think there are distractions where he may not come back. A deer, a wild turkey, a bear, maybe an alligator (when at the beach) — he hasn’t seen one of those yet. I don’t know for sure. I didn’t test it as I knew I’d prefer to have the e-collar when he’s off leash in the mountains. He calls off a squirrel. I feel more secure with the e-collar on him in certain situations. I don’t feel like it’s a crutch. I feel like it’s a common sense aid if I want him off leash up in the mountains where there are wild critters everywhere. I prefer it for field training for the same reason. I don’t see any dogs out there without them on. 

I wouldn’t walk him off leash on a street in our neighborhood because there are cars. Honestly, I don’t like seeing e-collars being used in the neighborhood because the people that use them give their dogs free reign to run up in people’s yards and around on the road — approaching other dogs and such. I’m not taking a risk where there are cars nearby of having him off leash. I’ve had his on him in the neighborhood, along with the leash, because sometimes I take him up in the watershed area (woods & Gills creek) and let him run all around.

Oh, and I don’t use the e-collar in the neighborhood just for regular walking. Logan walks on his flat collar. I do like a lead with a traffic handle if I have him in crowded areas downtown and at the university and such.


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## SRW

K9-Design said:


> nd a good butt whoopin' or two for ignoring me in their formative months.


Gasp


Megora said:


> But responding to somebody whose dog has already been running around, running up to people and dogs and so on.... that's not gonna stop if he straps an ecollar on his dog and starts pressing a button.


Is there any trainer that recommends doing such a thing?


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## Megora

diane0905 said:


> I don’t feel like it’s a crutch.


A crutch is something that you hang onto even beyond the point that it's necessary. And or it holds you back in training.

I was curious based on your comment if there is any sense of that at all. There was no judgement in my question, btw. Just curiosity.

There's places in OH where I am planning to take my guys next weekend where I would not take them off leash while hiking. Not even getting into the mountains. Just nature walks where the land is like a very pretty birthday cake that has had big slices taken out of it. You could be walking along a very steep path with nothing but air to your side and odd noises in the trees around you. It's spooky and treacherous all at once. My dogs stay on leash when I feel there's danger - even knowing they will stay close or come back to me. 

I've hiked in the woods up north here in MI where you can't see 3 feet ahead of you because of bushes and overgrowth if there's a bear right there.... but I didn't feel as unnerved about having my dogs off leash because it's hilly but not steep crazy drop offs. My dogs are trained/conditioned to come back to me immediately if there's something ahead or nearby. They do it with dogs and people on trails, with deer, and I know for sure they'd flip out if they saw a bear. With their eyes and noses being so much better than mine, I trust them to be more aware of our surroundings and rely on them when hiking quite a bit.... knock on wood that's kept us safe when I'm hiking alone with them. If they raise their heads and signal something is ahead, I'm typically calling them back and putting leashes on and we generally maneuver away.


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## SRW

These are my thoughts, feel free to skip this post.


Megora said:


> Long winded question finally getting to the point.... do you feel the ecollar is a crutch?


No, it is a training tool.


Megora said:


> Do you feel like he would run if the ecollar wasn't on.... and you'd have no ability to get him back?


No, that has never even occurred to me. My dogs did pretty well last weekend without collars.


Megora said:


> Obviously field people have to get their dogs off the ecollars, because the dogs have to be on a buckle collar when running in tests. Or that's something I vaguely recall.


No collars at all when running tests.


Megora said:


> Have you discussed or worked on a bridge (gap bridge?) to get away from having an ecollar on your dog?


No, why would I?


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## diane0905

Megora said:


> A crutch is something that you hang onto even beyond the point that it's necessary. And or it holds you back in training.
> 
> I was curious based on your comment if there is any sense of that at all. There was no judgement in my question, btw. Just curiosity.


I know and wasn’t offended. I simply just don’t think of the e-collar like that in the cases where I use it. 

I forgot about the cliffs in the mountains — that too.


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