# Calling all experts!



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Not an expert, but thought I'd give you a bump until the experts wake up.  



> 1. It appears he has a gay tail. My breeder mentioned it the last time she saw him. She didn't seem too concerned. But I was reading around and it sounds like that's something that would disqualify him?


I do not believe it would disqualify him. If you look at the breed standard, there are just a couple things there that would kick a dog out of the ring. Like not having a scissor bite, for example. 

Tail set is a preferential thing and depending on how well you hide a gay tail or if the judge is paying attention.... it probably would give other dogs an advantage over yours in the ring. 

The way to fix it - from what I understand... is breaking the tail. I wouldn't want to do that with my dogs.... :uhoh:



> 3. He has somewhat of what I'd consider a 'supermodel' walk. He swishes his butt back and forth with swagger. It definitely doesn't look like how the dogs move in the breed ring. Is this something we'd train as well? I know dogs are taught to gait (i think ) but if he were ever just walking in the ring would judges not pick him because of his swag?


It sounds like he's pacing. 

With some dogs, they either pace because it's comfortable or easier.... and it's sometimes a learned or reinforced behavior. 

You can train the dogs to STOP the pacing and only trot, but it does require you recognizing while moving with the dog when the dog is trotting and when he is pacing. 

My teacher kinda drilled it in my head that if Bertie starts off pacing or galloping or prancing (him doing heads up heeling next to me when we are supposed to be gaiting) - I have to stop and start over again. This was like pulling teeth in the beginning (6 weeks ago or so), because he had no concept of trotting unless I was running with him and he randomly picked the trot. About now, he is picking up the trot even with me walking. 

Like everything else - you need to mark and praise to encourage the right stuff.



> 4. He has a leaky eye, the vet has checked it out and said its just a blocked tear duct, nothing to worry about. My breeder mentioned its something we would just groom if we were to show him. Is there a point in showing if there seems to be so many things we'd have to hide?





> and this leads to another question:
> 5. How often are things like this hidden in the breed ring? I always wonder how many dogs out there are pretty much au natural and how many are really done up (need excessive grooming, tail fixing, eye cleaning, teeth whitening, nose bleaching, etc).


I think if they can get away with it... yep.

My one breeder was talking about being in the ring with a kinda big handler showing a dog who had been excessively groomed just so to hide the fact the dog did not have the best structure. This breeder has been a professional handler for years and now is a judge, so he spots things like that a mile away. And he capitalized on it in that ring by showing his own dog and drawing attention to his own dog's structure, particularly the topline. And he kept doing it until the judge figured out the message. 

The main thing I learned from this breeder is that every dog has faults. Unless they are one of the big disqualifying faults, they basically are nothing more than factors in how dogs are chosen in the ring. 

I went over Bertie's faults with another GRF member who was so kind as to help me with a lot of the early on conformation type training with him, and had no problem picking my own dog apart - whether that is stuff that I don't like particularly and/or stuff that she could see looking at pictures and videos which I offered her to critique. 

And to be fair, this member had no problem showing me pictures of her own dog and pointing out his weak areas and things she wants to improve on with how she breeds. 

And yesterday, talking with a golden person at class (one of those who had pushed me into picking up conformation) - just there chatting about grooming and "creative grooming", this somehow led to her showing me what she sees as weak areas with her dog and what she wants to improve on with breeding.

I think the problem with gay tails is that unlike coats or heads.... as far as breeding to improve on an area.... it's not that easy to simply breed a dog with a gay tail to a dog with a nice tail and not get a litter full of puppies with gay tails.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

If he has a true gay tail, honestly, I wouldn't show him. Does he really have a gay tail, or just tend to carry it high?
The Golden show ring is very competitive, and you will be up against lots of high quality dogs, especially in the bigger shows that you will have to participate in to get your Major wins. The judges have a hard time picking the *best* dog, and dogs with obviously faults (there's a difference between *obvious* and *disqualifying*) are just not going to be considered. A gay tail is an obvious, serious fault. 
What I would suggest is that you go to a couple of shows in your area, and look at what is winning in the ring, and honestly compare your dog to what the judges are looking for. The best of all, although it's not always possible, is to have one of the big name handlers take a look at him and give you an honest assessment of whether or not he will win. The big name handlers generally have a waiting list to become their client (which is why I suggest only talking to the big names, not just any handler) so they are not trying to solicit your business, they are just being honest about your dog's chances.
Showing your dog can be a lot of fun!


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Conformation is so competitive. With some faults, they're in the eye of the beholder due to preference or the judge weighs the faults in relation to one another. Maybe a judge would take a missing tooth over bad fronts. A gay or very high tail is hard to miss and is hard to overlook because it is "in your face" and messes with the outline. I think it would be hard to win with that kind of tail. I have heard people say you can train a dog to carry his tail lower. I have no idea how you would do that. And if ever bred, that is something that should be disclosed. I would likely not breed to a dog with a gay tail (said from the woman with only males)! As a stud dog owner, I wouldn't be thrilled to see offspring of my dog out there if they were not competitive or had such an obvious fault. That's just my 2 cents. Conformation is fun and we need new people in the sport. Why not ask your breeder for an honest critique as well as the stud dog owner. They should be able to guide you. 


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Fixing a gay tail is a violation of AKC rules. Plus I highly doubt you would want to subject your boy to the procedures used to fix it. Breaking it yourself is a mild one. Vets do not/should not get involved with this type of alteration, so it is usually done by a breeder or handler. And fixing it does not change the genetics. If it is a truly gay tail, he will pass it on.

Is it a high tail or a gay tail? Either way, it would be faulted in the ring and while in the scheme of things not that bad, high and gay tails are very visible.

I struggled with gay tails for several generations until I was finally able to breed them out. It took a long time and I washed out a lot of otherwise lovely dogs.

I don't tolerate gay tails. With high tails, it depends on how high it is and other qualities of the dog.

As far as the gait goes, if his structure and muscle tone are good, he can be trained to trot.

Goldens are a very competitive breed. I think it was Jill who mentioned that she had been told that more than 3 serious faults and you probably should not show a dog. Every dog has flaws, you want to be aware of them, how serious they are and how he looks in the ring.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'll let the conformation experts contribute here because I honestly don't know the answer to the questions. I just wanted to chime in that I've met Oliver, and he's quite handsome.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The two disqualifications are height and bite! I have heard of dogs having their tails cut... Which is not ok in the AKC. But neither is blackening dog noses and I have seen it done in the golden ring. There all kinds of tricks that are done with golden coats to enhance structure..


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

> My one breeder was talking about being in the ring with a kinda big handler showing a dog who had been excessively groomed just so to hide the fact the dog did not have the best structure. This breeder has been a professional handler for years and now is a judge, so he spots things like that a mile away. And he capitalized on it in that ring by showing his own dog and drawing attention to his own dog's structure, particularly the topline. And he kept doing it until the judge figured out the message.
> 
> The main thing I learned from this breeder is that every dog has faults. Unless they are one of the big disqualifying faults, they basically are nothing more than factors in how dogs are chosen in the ring.


Thank you very much! I was wondering how..um...hollywood? the breed ring was. How touched up and photoshopped dogs actually were in the ring (through grooming etc). And if this was a bad thing or not.



> If he has a true gay tail, honestly, I wouldn't show him. Does he really have a gay tail, or just tend to carry it high?
> The Golden show ring is very competitive, and you will be up against lots of high quality dogs, especially in the bigger shows that you will have to participate in to get your Major wins. The judges have a hard time picking the *best* dog, and dogs with obviously faults (there's a difference between *obvious* and *disqualifying*) are just not going to be considered. A gay tail is an obvious, serious fault.


I think he definitely has a gay tail, but he doesn't always carry it that way. He carries it that way mostly when he's playing. But it does curl right over the top. Like so:
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs38/f/2008/314/2/0/Meet_Pepe_Le_Pew_by_LikeMaNiac.jpg

I appreciate your honesty. I know showing is really competitive and expensive so even though it would be a really fun experience, if off the bat we're at a disadvantage we can scratch conformation off the list. I have quite the list of things I want to do with my dogs .



> I have heard people say you can train a dog to carry his tail lower. I have no idea how you would do that. And if ever bred, that is something that should be disclosed. I would likely not breed to a dog with a gay tail (said from the woman with only males)! As a stud dog owner, I wouldn't be thrilled to see offspring of my dog out there if they were not competitive or had such an obvious fault. That's just my 2 cents. Conformation is fun and we need new people in the sport. Why not ask your breeder for an honest critique as well as the stud dog owner. They should be able to guide you.


Thank you for your input! I was wondering if I could train him, while gaiting to carry his tail lower. For the most part when he trots he carries it low. Its when he's swishing his butt around or being playful that he carries it higher. I do plan on setting up a time to go visit my breeder and have her look over him. I don't know how much its worth, but my vet and the orthopedist said that Oliver was one of the most well-put together golden's they've ever seen. That's why I got a little more interested in showing him. 



> Fixing a gay tail is a violation of AKC rules.


Ahh I see, I didn't know that. Would fixing a leaky eye (due to a blocked tear duct) be breaking the rules as well? Do blocked tear ducts get passed down or is that not a genetic issue?



> I struggled with gay tails for several generations until I was finally able to breed them out. It took a long time and I washed out a lot of otherwise lovely dogs.
> 
> I don't tolerate gay tails. With high tails, it depends on how high it is and other qualities of the dog.


I really appreciate your input and this is exactly what I was thinking about. I don't plan on breeding Oliver, that would be a decision my breeder would make. I just want to have as much fun with him in competition venues as possible and if he turned out to be a real catch then she could make the decision. I wouldn't ever want to add to a breeding issue.



> I'll let the conformation experts contribute here because I honestly don't know the answer to the questions. I just wanted to chime in that I've met Oliver, and he's quite handsome.


Thank you  I'm obviously a bit biased. It would be nice to have him out there strutting his stuff!


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Sally's Mom said:


> The two disqualifications are height and bite! I have heard of dogs having their tails cut... Which is not ok in the AKC. But neither is blackening dog noses and I have seen it done in the golden ring. There all kinds of tricks that are done with golden coats to enhance structure..


I would never want to cut Oliver's tail, or do anything to hurt him etc just for looks. He's perfect the way he is  (from a mother's standpoint at least). I just really love the breed and find all the different things you can do so fascinating and exciting. There's so much to learn and so much fun to be had! Speaking of structure, so far I've only really though about his tail and his eye, I have no idea if his structure is good or not. I'll definitely have to make a trip to his breeders and see what she says. Where else can I go for an evaluation? Would people at training clubs know?

Thank you!


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

coaraujo said:


> I would never want to cut Oliver's tail, or do anything to hurt him etc just for looks. He's perfect the way he is  (from a mother's standpoint at least). I just really love the breed and find all the different things you can do so fascinating and exciting. There's so much to learn and so much fun to be had! Speaking of structure, so far I've only really though about his tail and his eye, I have no idea if his structure is good or not. I'll definitely have to make a trip to his breeders and see what she says. Where else can I go for an evaluation? Would people at training clubs know?
> 
> Thank you!


I would suggest getting a copy of the "A Study Of The Golden Retriever" Aka, the Blue Book. It is extremely helpful to understand the breed standard. Good luck 
http://www.grcasales.org/a-study-of-the-golden-retriever.html


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

according to your pepe le pew cartoon, yep, that's a very gay tail. 
I think you would be wasting your time and money to take a dog with a seriously gay tail in the show ring. But there is no reason at all you can't do obedience, agility, tracking, field, rally, dock diving, nosework, and anything else you both enjoy!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Yep, that is a really gay tail in the cartoon. You can train them to lower their tail on command but because it can be structural, it is not natural for them and you have to keep reminding them to lower it. I did this with one boy because he was so beautiful, but was mortified at a Specialty when I whispered the command "Tail", and he dropped not only his tail but his whole rear! It just wasn't worth it plus I knew he would produce it.

Some dogs do not carry their tails like that when in the ring, so that may be something to explore.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

If I may without derailing the thread are there any consequences of showing and not getting any points?
I have never been in the show world and have been off and on contemplating on showing our flat coat - mainly because she already has 5 points towards her CH thru the hard work of her breeder. 
She is still not spayed and I am worried about the health consequences but at the same time I would love to continue what the breeder has worked so hard for while starting to work with her on obedience, field and maybe other venues.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

coaraujo said:


> I was wondering if I could train him, while gaiting to carry his tail lower. For the most part when he trots he carries it low. Its when he's swishing his butt around or being playful that he carries it higher.


^ Based on what you said here, I don't think Oliver has a gay tail. If it were a truly gay tail, wouldn't he carry it like that all the time, not just when he's pacing or playful? (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong). 

Also, remember, dogs use their tails and tail posture to communicate. What does Oliver do with his tail when he meets new dogs or new people? I've seen this type of communication first hand in the past when I worked with a pack of five wolves. Here's a useful link with a graphic on tail position in wolves (scroll down). It kind of makes me wonder about breeds that have docked tails - what do they lose in terms of ability to communicate with one another? 

Save The Moonlight Howls | Man's Wild Best Friend

I used to think Kea had a gay tail too, because she would carry it high when she was excited or if she encountered another dog. Then we took a handling class and I learned how to teach her to gait properly. When she is gaiting (trotting) and not trying to communicate, she has a beautiful tail carriage. Now, I can say, 'hup-hup-hup' and off she goes in a lovely trot by my side with her tail "carried with merry action, level or with some moderate upward curve; never curled over back nor between legs" (<-- from the breed standard). 

Something else that was tremendously helpful for me was doing the CCA. GRCA-Noncompetitive Conformation Assessment Program We got some very, very nice comments from three knowledgeable breeder-judges that helped me better understand Kea's strengths and weaknesses. Not one of them said anything about her carrying her tail too high, and from what I understand, a gay tail is quite obvious.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> If I may without derailing the thread are there any consequences of showing and not getting any points?
> I have never been in the show world and have been off and on contemplating on showing our flat coat - mainly because she already has 5 points towards her CH thru the hard work of her breeder.
> She is still not spayed and I am worried about the health consequences but at the same time I would love to continue what the breeder has worked so hard for while starting to work with her on obedience, field and maybe other venues.


For me personally its a financial issue. Id rather not spend all the money in something we know we wont succeed in. We can have fun other ways


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

There's no problem with showing for fun, but you need to lower your expectations if that is the case. I will echo that goldens are super competitive with very high breed counts required for majors. It would be discouraging to enter your dog weekend after weekend and incur the costs of showing and not win, but if you are doing it to learn and not with the ultimate goal of finishing the dog then it could be something to consider. I am very competitive, so it would not be something I would be interested in doing, but to each their own 

I often think it's unfortunate that gay tails are so obvious. On an otherwise very nice dog, it should be like any other fault. Unfortunately it ruins the outline of the dog on the move and is hard to ignore. There is one special I saw when he was in the classes who carried his tail very high. I saw him again and it appeared to have been trained out of him at some point, so it is possible!


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

KeaColorado said:


> ^ Based on what you said here, I don't think Oliver has a gay tail. If it were a truly gay tail, he'd carry it like that all the time, not just when he's pacing or playful. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
> 
> Also, remember, dogs use their tails and tail posture to communicate. What does Oliver do with his tail when he meets new dogs or new people? I've seen this type of communication first hand in the past when I worked with a pack of five wolves. Here's a useful link with a graphic on tail position in wolves (scroll down). It kind of makes me wonder about breeds that have docked tails - what do they lose in terms of ability to communicate with one another?
> 
> ...


Olivers tail goes up and hes flashy with it when he greets other dogs, kinda like a peacock showing off his feathers. Its weird because its not all the time. But it definitely curls over his back at times

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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

Claudia M said:


> If I may without derailing the thread are there any consequences of showing and not getting any points?


Other than spending your vacation fund, followed by your new car fund, then your retirement fund...?


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> If I may without derailing the thread are there any consequences of showing and not getting any points?


I was thinking the same thing. But it probably really depends on the money factor or at least it would for me...


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

I think Im getting confused with what a gay tail is. Is it structural or,just the way the dog carries his tail? Can a dog who has a tail to the standard carry it gay like sometimes or would it not be physically possible?

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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I always thought that a gay tail is possibly caused by a high tail set. Or where the tail comes off the back. 

Proud tail - which you might be seeing with your guy is carrying the tail high when the dog is posturing or full of it. Like when they are in the show ring. It's not necessarily the same as the habitual or comfortable default tail carriage of the dog. 

**** I have a nice puppy to show, but conformation is not the big deal for me. I want him to have fun out there and gain ring experience and confidence for the next year or two before I start showing him in obedience. I was talking with my one teacher about this who also does everything but agility with her dogs, and she absolutely agreed and felt it was a great plan. <- So yes, it not a waste of money and time going out there with your dog. Unless you are going out there every weekend, I guess. That would probably insane really quick.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Eowyn said:


> I would suggest getting a copy of the "A Study Of The Golden Retriever" Aka, the Blue Book. It is extremely helpful to understand the breed standard. Good luck
> A Study of the Golden Retriever


I second this! I have two copies as I lent one to the Dobie handler who showed my dogs.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Just bought "A Study of the Golden Retriever"! Thanks everyone!


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

So I just watched some videos of Oliver to check out how he carries his tail (He's at his Dad's at the moment so I couldn't observe him here). He has a REALLY gay tail. No doubt about it. So showing is definitely not happening for us. I think we'll still take handling classes because it'll be fun for both of us and I really want to get involved in conformation in the future so Oliver and I can learn together .


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