# Handling on a blind, handler's decision, and whistles



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I find handling on a blind to be very challenging. I am doing my best right now to better my skills. 

FT said in another thread "I know of no judges that count whistles...".

I find this very interesting and it makes me realize how much many of us need to learn about handling. SO...I would like to create a list of advice of handling strategies that could be of use to all of us.

Please contribute, we all have something o say.

My contribution: My mentor said after Monday's training session "After you blow the whistle, wait before you give the cast, slow down. The dog has one thing in mind and you need to let her clear her mind, concentrate on you, then give her the cast."


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

I believe what FT meant by that is that you should not withhold a cast that was needed while worrying how many casts this took, but also that a good judge is looking for a dog/handler team that will challenge his or her test. 5 good handles that kept the dog on line is better than a banana line that avoided the test.

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

EvanG said:


> I believe what FT meant by that is that you should not withhold a cast that was needed while worrying how many casts this took, but also that a good judge is looking for a dog/handler team that will challenge his or her test. 5 good handles that kept the dog on line is better than a banana line that avoided the test.
> 
> EvanG


Thank you. This is what I need. Not just what I should do but WHY. The why is very often missing.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

The flip side of that is, I have an acquaintance who was allowed to pass a master test when she had 30+ whistles on a shoreline blind. As in, we stopped counting after 30. She didn't let the dog take 5 steps without blowing the whistle. The dog is an extremely slow worker to begin with. It was excruciating to watch. But the dog never stepped a foot out of a 5-foot wide corridor that was the absolutely correct line to the blind. In my mind, if your dog needs 30+ casts, it's because he's scalloping and not holding your casts. There's no way a judge should have passed that, IMO. This of course is an extreme example!!

Handling in a test and handling in training can be very different. It takes a lot of experience to get fluent at it, and knowing what is the right cast to give, right whistle, right spot. It's where the engineer meets the artist


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Thank you. Thirty+ casts is a bit much. My gosh, I hope someone is helping this handler.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I don't have any ideas to throw out but boy I will watch the thread. I feel very weak on blinds. Probably because trying to find places to set them near home to train is hard. Lots of open fields (school yards) my dogs know to go to fences..... 

However one thing my trainer said especially in training don't try to "line the blind". Chances are it won't happen at a test so you need to know what to do. He challenges us with suction a lot. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

This is timely for me because not only is Gladys transitioning from Master to Senior, but I am too. I have a lot of confusion between "challenging the blind" and "making progress" . We had group today and I thought we kind of botched the blinds but it was pointed out at least Gladys stopped and took most of my casts, even if she didn't carry them completely, she made progress.

I agree 100% with Anney's post, it's so subjective, some is doing your best and letting the judges judge. I've hea'rd people say "let the judges judge" and say don't pick up your dog until the judges tell you to. Yet I've heard others say "so and so should have picked up her dog a long time ago". 

I'm not sure which it is, but I can only do my best, let the judges judge, and like Anney said, as it takes the dogs practice, it will take me practice, and I will learn from mistakes and get dinged sometimes. 

I'm getting some knowledge of the importance of stopping trouble before it starts (e.g. getting too close to shore or cetain landmarks in some situations), learning where the dogs want to go, where they don't want to go; learning that judges count REFUSALS not whistles. ... although like Anney said, the scalloping is ok trainability taking the casts but poor perserverance carrying them.

I'm lucky I get to work with Gladys, she seems to like doing blinds, it's like long distance high five.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

boomers_dawn said:


> I agree 100% with Anney's post, it's so subjective, some is doing your best and letting the judges judge. I've hea'rd people say "let the judges judge" and say don't pick up your dog until the judges tell you to. Yet I've heard others say "so and so should have picked up her dog a long time ago".



I guess it depends on what your goals are for you and your partner. If you are just hoping to qualify then I guess the "let the judges judge" train of thought works best. But be aware you may be allowing/encouraging bad habits that may later be very difficult to fix. 
If you don't want a test to ruin what foundation you have laid for tomorrow, then in some cases it is best to pick the dog one whistle too early than one whistle too late. 
As with all things your mileage may vary.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

gdgli said:


> I find handling on a blind to be very challenging. I am doing my best right now to better my skills.
> 
> FT said in another thread "I know of no judges that count whistles...".
> 
> ...


gdgli,

What a great discussion topic! It's a topic so vast that there's not enough band width to get it totally vetted, but it's going to be fun for all of us to share our thoughts and cover some of the elements. My thoughts:

Elements to a Blind:
When figuring out how to run blinds, break down and work on each aspect of the process, paying particularly close attention to lining up your dog. In most cases, the proper alignment is with the dog's nose and spine in perfect alignment with the line to the blind (I'm better at this when running my dog off the left side than the right side ... dunno why, just am). Then there's blowing the whistle ... when, how loud, how quickly does the dog stop, etc. Then there's how long to wait before casting the dog ... do you need a big change of direction or only a slight change, i.e., do you need to maintain some momentum or not (sometimes answered if the dog is not giving you a change of direction). Then there's the question of a verbal versus silent cast and how your pup reacts to each one ... is it different?

Not Counting Whistles: 
Indeed, Evan is correct in what I meant about not counting whistles. Keeping the dog on line, or at least in a narrow enough corridor to make the judges call you to the next series, is what it's about. Whether it takes 4 whistles or 7 whistles doesn't matter to most judges, at least not to most experienced field trial judges. Said another way, a "banana" line means that your pup, and thus you, have avoided the hazards of the test ... not what the judges ordered. Before running a blind, go to the line with a game plan based on what you anticipate that your dog will do; of course, you may need plans B, C, D and E, but at least start with a plan. 
And that 30+ whistle blind ... a 30 whistle blind probably means that the dog didn't take a good line, or didn't take the casts, or didn't carry the casts, so one of those points is what the judge would ding the dog on (I have, however, seen and run "survival" water blinds, where 25 - 30 whistles got dogs called back ... one that comes to mind had 24 dogs going into the water blind, only 4 got the bird and went to the fourth series... a Golden actually won that Open).

Training v. Test/Trial:
I do not always run blinds in training the same way that I would run them in a trial. If I'm training and have a dog that is not taking a cast, I will stop the dog as many times as necessary and then make the dog take an exaggerated cast in the direction it had refused. At that point, it's not about getting to the blind, instead it is about getting the cast.
Someone mentioned scalloping ... a scallop is also referred to as an "all age over." This is in reference to the fact that in MOST cases, the dogs are not so far off line as to need a true over, but instead a "little bit of over" and a "lot of back" is really what you want ... this holds true for a trial and a test, not in training.

There's a lot to this game ....

FTGoldens


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

one bit of advice I was recently given (read that as, one correction I need to make in my handling skills!) is that on water blinds, be sure the dog is 100% facing you, and treading water, before you give a cast. If he is turned even slightly to either direction, you are going to get a scallop, not a true line. But if he's facing you, and starting to sink a little, he will give you the cast you've asked for. 
Yep, worked for us!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> one bit of advice I was recently given (read that as, one correction I need to make in my handling skills!) is that on water blinds, be sure the dog is 100% facing you, and treading water, before you give a cast. If he is turned even slightly to either direction, you are going to get a scallop, not a true line. But if he's facing you, and starting to sink a little, he will give you the cast you've asked for.
> Yep, worked for us!


If you're referring to a crooked sit problem, fix that in training. You'll see people "toot-toot" the dog...calling them in about 2 or 3 feet to get them straight each time they sit them, and then cast. I don't recommend that treatment, and I sure don't suggest doing it in competition. Each cast should improve the dog's relationship to the fall.

As for the above treatment, it usually only improves the crooked sit in the moment, with very little *if any* long term benefits. Still, it's done all the time.

EvanG


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> Handling in a test and handling in training can be very different. It takes a lot of experience to get fluent at it, and knowing what is the right cast to give, right whistle, right spot. It's where the engineer meets the artist


I agree with this 100%. In training I always look for momentum and confidence. For example, if the dog has a long land to water entry and takes the water cleanly, I will not blow a whistle if the dog is not on a perfect line. I will let her carry the line a ways to reward her getting into the water. The same with casting, if the dog takes a nice cast I let her hold it awhile even if it pushes her a little off line in the other direction. 
I look at blinds from the perspective of what behaviors are important to me. Since I have a dog that wants to bypass points of land in the water, once again, I will let her carry a line a little off course if she gets on and off a piece of land.
This does not mean I allow her to make a complete change of direction, it means that I will allow her to carry a line she is on if I see her challenging the obstacles in front of her rather than nitpick to get that perfect line.

In a test, I would clearly use more whistles if needed to keep her on the best line.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm referring to a "crooked sit" in the water. 
Generally if I just stand there and wait, he will fix the crooked sit (in the water), because he realizes he's not going to get the cast until he does, and he's going to sink if I don't give him a cast.




EvanG said:


> If you're referring to a crooked sit problem, fix that in training. You'll see people "toot-toot" the dog...calling them in about 2 or 3 feet to get them straight each time they sit them, and then cast. I don't recommend that treatment, and I sure don't suggest doing it in competition. Each cast should improve the dog's relationship to the fall.
> 
> As for the above treatment, it usually only improves the crooked sit in the moment, with very little *if any* long term benefits. Still, it's done all the time.
> 
> EvanG


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Since I'm not on blinds yet and just learning to handle, I had a couple of dumb questions. At a qualifying field trial I counted whistles or a lack of them, as different people ran their dogs. I watched one guy on a water blind use his whistle once. It was a great distance and he took quite a bit of time to line up his dog. But just one whistle. Is that very common? Do you think one whistle is better than multiples? How does a judge look at that at a field trial versus a hunt test, is there any difference?


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> Since I'm not on blinds yet and just learning to handle, I had a couple of dumb questions. At a qualifying field trial I counted whistles or a lack of them, as different people ran their dogs. I watched one guy on a water blind use his whistle once. It was a great distance and he took quite a bit of time to line up his dog. But just one whistle.
> (1)(a) Is that very common?
> (1)(b) Do you think one whistle is better than multiples?
> (2) How does a judge look at that at a field trial versus a hunt test, is there any difference?


(1) Well, it depends (sorry, that's not a great answer but an accurate one). 
(a) In a field trial, one whistle blinds are not common. The reason for this is because the judges must set up tests of sufficient difficulty to create differentiation between the dogs. That is, if a blind is so easy that multiple dogs properly complete the blind with one whistle, there is no differentiation on that test. In a field trial if several dogs complete a blind with either no whistles or one whistle, the judges are likely to scrap that test and come up with one of more complexity ... the judges HAVE to have something to judge.
(b) A one whistle blind can be either brilliant or horrible! If the dog started on a great line, overcame the factors, pretty much stayed on that line, and needed only one cast to complete the blind ... GREAT JOB! On the other hand if the dog caved in to the factors and took the easiest route thereby avoiding the difficult elements of the blind, then it would be horrible (e.g., say it's a water blind requiring the dogs to go over a point, then re-enter the water, but the dog in question got on the point, the handler stopped the dog once and tried to handle it off the point but it ran around the bank to the bird... HORRIBLE JOB!). The questions are: Did the dog take a decent initial line, stay in the appropriate corridor (i.e., on line) en route to the blind, stop when told to stop, take the casts given by the handler, and carry the casts an acceptable distance toward the blind.

(2) Again, it depends. The difference between tests and trials is that the TRIAL judges must set up tests that not every dog can do, or at least not do with the same level of performance. Typically, trial judges want some dogs to do the test very well, some dogs to do it acceptably well, and some dogs to do it at a level that is deemed unacceptable or outright fail. Trial judges not only have to develop set ups that will separate the dogs that go home versus go to the next series, their set ups also must create sufficient differentiation between the dogs that complete all of the series to pick the placements and JAMS. Frankly, I have judged Opens where even the pros did a poor job of handling their dogs and failed to appreciate the difficulty of a particular blind, allowing their dogs to "banana" around an obvious factor and get the bird with "only one" whistle ... they were excused from the competition. [Not all pros are created equally.]

I hope this helps, ... upon review, I'm not sure that I answered any of your questions with clarity.

FTGoldens


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## KathyG (Nov 21, 2011)

In training, don't nit pick. As long as they are generally on the fairway to the blind let them roll as you want that momentum. If they are avoiding hazards, then correct their line. Don't nit pick. Run LONG training blinds to help build confidence.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Did I hear a rumor that *someone* recently got a couple of MH passes???



KathyG said:


> In training, don't nit pick. As long as they are generally on the fairway to the blind let them roll as you want that momentum. If they are avoiding hazards, then correct their line. Don't nit pick. Run LONG training blinds to help build confidence.


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## KathyG (Nov 21, 2011)

*Master*

LOL....not rumor Barb! He has passed 3 in a row. Now I believe it's attainable.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

WAY TO GO KATHY and STYX!


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## Red Retrievers (Apr 15, 2011)

One advantage I look for in running blinds, if you don't run to early in the series, watch the other dogs. What is the suction, what are they avoiding, what lines are the dogs taking, successful and unsuccessful. Watch these and plan your attack. The more information you can have prior to running the blind will help.

Know your dog what is going to be the factors that influence your dog. You train with your dog you know it's strengths and weaknesses. Play to your dogs strengths and be cautious with the weaknesses. Plan how to make your dog be successful in the situation. If your dog has a hard time on hills and tends to fall off line, line the dog taking that into consideration. It could save you a whistle or two.

IMHO too many whistles in training can lead to a dog that is apprehensive when running a blind, they can be slow, no style, or pop waiting for the next whistle as that is how they've been trained.


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