# Reward question



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

It sounds like Storee is doing a great job at the initial learning, but it takes a long reward history for the dog to consider the obstacles themselves fun and rewarding. Until that begins happening, dogs can have a 'what's in it for me' mindset.

Will she tug? Swapping a ball toss for a tug game would help keep her more in to you.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

These things are hard to tell unless you see the behavior.

Thoughts would be to break everything down and build the value of each obstacle individually by frequent rewards. People often forget to reward jumping as they just expect the dogs to want to jump. They focus rewards on contacts. Which is why most dogs LOVE those, they are rewarded EVERY time. 

There are a lot of things you can do with one jump. I have even done shaping with one jump. I will setup one jump in the yard (begin at reduced height) and get my rewards ready and wait for Mira to offer me a jump, when she is mid air I toss the toy or treat on the other side. The idea is to build the value of the jump. 

Another idea is to vary your rewards. Find more things that Storee likes, be it food or toys and surprise her with something great when she completes an obstacle. Vary whether the reward is visible or not.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Try pretending you have the ball when it is really hidden. If you can get her to believe you and make the jump, then you can show afterward you don't have it until you pull it out of somewhere else.


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

Is she running off and not coming back til she finds the ball? 

Is this an understanding error (she doesn't get it) or a lack of effort (not trying) error? 

I think you have to correct lack of effort errors- whether it's not coming back to you/straying away from you/not taking the commanded jump- but you need to be very sure that is not an understanding error first. 

Once you've corrected it, you can go back and build value in other things, food, tug toys, etc.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

If the ball is your reward of choice, I'd back way up and start using it for just taking one jump, but as quickly as you can, get off the need to visably have it on you. Hide it and then pop it out for just one jump, etc. and then maybe start having other people toss it on your behalf, or plan it at the end of a sequence and then sometimes hide it at the end of a sequence. Vary how and when the ball comes out.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Sounds like she's learned that the point of agility is to follow the ball, not necessarily to do the obstacles. For me the first step would be to hide the ball but still have it on your person. You can get a clip for the ball that attaches to your belt loop, then wear a really long shirt so the ball is hiding. If you have anything resembling scrubs with those really big pockets, you can put the ball in the pocket. Try not to let her see you put the ball in there though (otherwise she'll just become dependent on the lump in your pocket). Some more coordinated people can hold a ball under their arm and still run normally, but I don't really know how they pull that off. Have her just do one jump, then pull the ball out and throw it. Gradually increase the amount of obstacles you ask her to do while the ball is hidden. Then start sometimes having the ball hidden on your body and sometimes hiding it elsewhere.

With Dusty I used treats in a tupperware container that had a special name ("lucky dog"), and he learned that it could come out any time. It hides several feet away from the ring in trials, for a while it was hiding under the table at show-and-gos when he was having table stress issues, in class it would sometimes get thrown onto the course after he did the weave poles. During our first couple trials after a table retraining, after he'd lie down on the table I'd say "yay, let's go get the lucky dog!" and we'd run out of the ring to get the treats. That way the dog learns that the potential for reward is always out there.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

I wouldn't hide the ball. I'd put it out there - Maybe in something so she can't self reward - and I'd back WAY up. Jump - go get the ball (play with ball). Jump - go get the ball (play). If she goes around the jump then "whoops, sorry - let's try again" Ball goes back to where ever it was and you try again. Keep it very simple to start with - jump = ball. She's telling you that's the reinforcement she wants, but like food it can become a lure that's hard to fade the longer you use it...Over time you increase the difficulty - jump jump ball. The key thing is that you can't tell her to leave it - because you eventually want to release her to get it....

It takes time but it creates some WICKED drive. I use it from time to time at the end of weave poles to reinforce independent weaves.

Erica


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks for the ideas...

I'll try backing up a bit with things and making it simple for her, as well as hiding the ball or having someone else toss it for her. My read is she's putting a lack of effort into the job, because she'd rather have the ball and is miss independant who doesn't like to do things for anyone but herself most of the time (but she is getting a lot better at that one). 

Lana


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I am kind of going through this with Teddi. I would always treat after a exercise, completed. Sometimes she was great other times, she would stop jumping and I would have to motivate her and finish. Recently I switched to using a toy and OMG she is a different dog. Are you sure the "ball" is the best toy? 

It is hard for me with the toy, I don't like it from a handle perspective, it is cumbersome and I can see it being a real crutch. I always thing Teddi should be farther along but to be honest I am not sure she has ever completed a session with out some "issue" coming up. If she did one before it was only one. So she should not be running courses, she is mentally in agility a baby dog. Once I figure out how to motivate her with the toy fully and handle with it believe me I will start doing less with the toy. Treats are so much easier as you can stick them in a pocket. I may start reducing the size of the toy as we progress so I can get to a point where the toy can fit in my pocket, and then also use a tug.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

She is VERY ball motivated, no problem there. Food, well she's getting all she can eat twice a day (up to six pounds of raw some days - no worms or other problems, just a busy dog) so she usually could care less about food treats most of the time. Unless I were to not feed her, in which case she'd loose what she has gained fast and look worse.

I'm going to see how it goes tomorrow, I have actual help so someone else can throw the ball for her and I can just handle and see how she does. If not, I'll find a way to stash balls on the equipment so she can't get them but I can...

Lana


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## Pilot'sowner (Oct 29, 2008)

I have a similar problem with Pilot. During the really hot summer the only thing that gets him motivated is his ball. He could care less about any kind of food. But he's SO ball motivated that he goes way to fast and jumps carelessly. I'm very interested reading all the responses so far, thanks!


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