# Orijen vs. Brothers Complete



## Starbuck (May 6, 2013)

I am debating between a diet of Orijen or Brothers Complete for my Golden. I know every dog is different, so if one doesn't work out I will try the other, but I'm seeking some recommendations of which to try first.

Ingredient-wise and price-wise they seem to be about the same. I have heard good things about both brands, so I am really pretty open to either. I would love to hear everyone's personal experiences or just general opinions (unless specific, similar products differ greatly -- i.e. one is better for this, the other is better for that) regarding them! Thank you!


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

I switched from Orijen to Brothers because I could not get Orijen because of a fire in their kitchen. Well many posts came up about Brothers and where they manufacture their food (Texas) and where they get the ingredients.
I emailed Brothers and did not get a direct answer to my questions which did not make me very happy. I now feed Acana Pacifica which is from the same company as Orijen. Acana is lower in protein and my guy is doing very well on it. Good Luck


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## ataylor (Dec 28, 2008)

I really like Orijen. I don't feed it to my dogs, but I work at a pet food store and we sell it. I am not familiar with Brothers. I know that Orijen is pricey, but it is worth it. They use fresh meat. Their meat comes in daily. You will feed less with Orijen because it is high in protein and grain-free. I like how you can see where all of the ingredients come from.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

I really like Orijen, I feed raw, but if I were to feed kibble ( and in some situations I'm forced to) I would feed Orijen, champion foods the producer has had no recalls of their own faulting and, even 1 situation that was a government issue I feel they handled very well, they answer emails quickly, are notorious for the quality control and general quality of their food, and the ingredients inside them. Go with Orijen.


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## Sheldon (Feb 27, 2013)

Tuco said:


> they answer emails quickly
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 I cant agree with that statement, I have 1 email unanswered going on 8 days and another at 6 days. I got the auto confirmation for both, so I know they got them. In this day and age of social media, not returning emails is bad business period. I think they make a good quality product (based on my limited knowledge), but I would argue much of their success is due to a high quality point of purchase marketing program. I have marketing background and everything from the colors and printing (using names like "Okanagan Apple & Ranchlands" ) used on the bags, to the high quality four color press brochures, printed on bonded paper and bound speaks "very expensive outside marketing firm". I applaud them in investing in such unique plan, as they really stand out from the crowd. Strange they would not address email questions quickly, when they are spending so much on advertising.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

I would suggest Orijen, have fed my dogs Orijen in the past and they have been on Acana Ranchlands for at least two years. They did great on the Orijen and are doing just as well on the Acana Ranchlands.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Sheldon said:


> I cant agree with that statement, I have 1 email unanswered going on 8 days and another at 6 days. I got the auto confirmation for both, so I know they got them. In this day and age of social media, not returning emails is bad business period. I think they make a good quality product (based on my limited knowledge), but I would argue much of their success is due to a high quality point of purchase marketing program. I have marketing background and everything from the colors and printing (using names like "Okanagan Apple & Ranchlands" ) used on the bags, to the high quality four color press brochures, printed on bonded paper and bound speaks "very expensive outside marketing firm". I applaud them in investing in such unique plan, as they really stand out from the crowd. Strange they would not address email questions quickly, when they are spending so much on advertising.


I have yet to experience any of their marketing, I have sent them countless emails and questions on everything from their meat sources, and ash amounts to the temperature it's cooked at and I've never had an answer take longer than 3 days and that was on a holiday


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## Sheldon (Feb 27, 2013)

d and is ju


Tuco said:


> I have yet to experience any of their marketing
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If you have been on their website, you have been exposed to their marketing. Its a markedly different style of advertising / branding. I notice many of the low end pet food products that come from huge conglomerates here in the US are starting copy this advertising style, typically you would see this type of campaign used for selling high end cosmetics or luxury autos. Its very influential (regardless of the actual quality of the product sold). This style of advertising is very expensive, imagine what could be done with all that money if directed towards the quality of the product or overall retail pricing. But in this new world we live in with social media, its "social proof" that makes or breaks a business ( sometimes over night) In fact these types of forums sell so much dog food, just by very simple affirming messages.......and sometimes the posters have never even tried the brand and are just relaying information they have read elsewhere......gotta love the power of the internet, makes us all experts.


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## Starbuck (May 6, 2013)

Thank you everyone for your input! I'd rather have a company that takes longer to get back to you but is willing to share information than the other way around. I was actually leaning more towards Orijen to begin with, and it looks like that's what I'll be using. But that brings up another question! For diet-related purposes, would you consider Goldens a medium-sized breed or a large-sized breed?

AKC considers them to be medium, but at 65-75lbs, the average adult male falls under the category of "large breed" according to Orijen's feeding guide. My puppy is male.

Orijen's Puppy and Large Puppy vary slightly in terms of ingredients, of course. Technically speaking, a Golden would require the food formulated for medium-sized dogs, but Orijen gives conflicting information based on expected weight.

With what I can gather from Orijen's website, Large Puppy specially uses "low ash" chicken and fish for the benefit of less calcium and phosphorus than Puppy. It also contains microorganisms, which Puppy does not. On the other hand, Puppy contains 4% more animal fat than Large Puppy.

Other ingredients in the guaranteed analysis are slightly different too, but I'm even less informed about how much of any given one of those is more appropriate for a Golden. If anyone has any thoughts or breakdowns, I would greatly appreciate it. c:


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Go with large breed, the analysis seems slightly more ideal than the other


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Murphy ate their large breed puppy and as a said Acana Pacifica now. When I was unsure I emailed the company and they said large breed. He did well on it but there were times his poop was a little soft.
One more thing........its about the food and its quality not the marketing,,,,,in my opinion!


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Their poops tend to be alittle softer on grain free kibbles mainly because naturally those effects would be countered by bones and cartilage but now because they don't contain much they get counteracted by grains.


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## Sheldon (Feb 27, 2013)

Starbuck said:


> Thank you everyone for your input! I'd rather have a company that takes longer to get back to you but is willing to share information than the other way around. I was actually leaning more towards Orijen to begin with, and it looks like that's what I'll be using. But that brings up another question! For diet-related purposes, would you consider Goldens a medium-sized breed or a large-sized breed?
> 
> AKC considers them to be medium, but at 65-75lbs, the average adult male falls under the category of "large breed" according to Orijen's feeding guide. My puppy is male.
> 
> ...


 I'm currently feeding its sister brand Acana and very happy... slightly less price and protein levels. I tried Orijen, but Sheldon was none stop thirsty on both of the foods I tried. I would make sure you have plenty of fresh water available at all times......which obviously means more trips outside.


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## Sheldon (Feb 27, 2013)

murphy1 said:


> One more thing........its about the food and its quality not the marketing,,,,,in my opinion!


 Sure it is .......for you, an educated consumer, but the masses are attracted to the next shiny thing that pops up on the market. (again, as I stated above I do like Champion products.......just feel customer service could use some help.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

murphy1 said:


> Murphy ate their large breed puppy and as a said Acana Pacifica now. When I was unsure I emailed the company and they said large breed. He did well on it but there were times his poop was a little soft.
> One more thing........its about the food and its quality not the marketing,,,,,in my opinion!


Considering the massive ammount of people feeding science diet, beneful, IAMS, pedigree, royal canin and science diet I have to disagree


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## Starbuck (May 6, 2013)

Sheldon said:


> I'm currently feeding its sister brand Acana and very happy... slightly less price and protein levels. I tried Orijen, but Sheldon was none stop thirsty on both of the foods I tried. I would make sure you have plenty of fresh water available at all times......which obviously means more trips outside.


True! I forgot to mention that Acana was my third choice, only because their puppy food does contain grains (oats), from which I understand are completely unnecessary. Although it probably isn't much of a hinderance in a quality food like Acana, I would like to try to stick with something that contains only essential ingredients for the most important part of life - early growth and development! That's just my opinion. Once my puppy is done growing, like Murphy, I have no problem considering Acana's Regionals. 

Thank you for the tip -- I know it's very important to provide fresh water because it helps the dog utilize the protein he's getting. I hear that low-quality proteins in dog foods are mostly wasted by the body, and the kidneys have to process that waste which can put a lot of stress on them. Especially without enough water!


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## Sheldon (Feb 27, 2013)

Starbuck said:


> True! I forgot to mention that Acana was my third choice, only because their puppy food does contain grains (oats), from which I understand are completely unnecessary. Although it probably isn't much of a hinderance in a quality food like Acana, I would like to try to stick with something that contains only essential ingredients for the most important part of life - early growth and development! That's just my opinion. Once my puppy is done growing, like Murphy, I have no problem considering Acana's Regionals.
> 
> Thank you for the tip -- I know it's very important to provide fresh water because it helps the dog utilize the protein he's getting. I hear that low-quality proteins in dog foods are mostly wasted by the body, and the kidneys have to process that waste which can put a lot of stress on them. Especially without enough water!


Absolutely a good water supply is essential for proper hydration, but unless Sheldon was unusually sensitive to this food I think you will find he will drink more water this product verses some other foods. That was my point. He would empty three bowls a night!!


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## Starbuck (May 6, 2013)

Sheldon said:


> Absolutely a good water supply is essential for proper hydration, but unless Sheldon was unusually sensitive to this food I think you will find he will drink more water this product verses some other foods. That was my point. He would empty three bowls a night!!


Ah, okay! I wonder why that is? I guess it's not necessarily a bad thing, unless he won't stop drinking even when he isn't thirsty? It just means more work for us! xD


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Sheldon said:


> I cant agree with that statement, I have 1 email unanswered going on 8 days and another at 6 days. I got the auto confirmation for both, so I know they got them. In this day and age of social media, not returning emails is bad business period. I think they make a good quality product (based on my limited knowledge), but I would argue much of their success is due to a high quality point of purchase marketing program. I have marketing background and everything from the colors and printing (using names like "Okanagan Apple & Ranchlands" ) used on the bags, to the high quality four color press brochures, printed on bonded paper and bound speaks "very expensive outside marketing firm". I applaud them in investing in such unique plan, as they really stand out from the crowd. Strange they would not address email questions quickly, when they are spending so much on advertising.


That has been my experience with e-mails also. I never did get answers.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Starbuck said:


> True! I forgot to mention that Acana was my third choice, only because their puppy food does contain grains (oats), from which I understand are completely unnecessary. Although it probably isn't much of a hinderance in a quality food like Acana, I would like to try to stick with something that contains only essential ingredients for the most important part of life - early growth and development! That's just my opinion. Once my puppy is done growing, like Murphy, I have no problem considering Acana's Regionals.
> 
> Thank you for the tip -- I know it's very important to provide fresh water because it helps the dog utilize the protein he's getting. I hear that low-quality proteins in dog foods are mostly wasted by the body, and the kidneys have to process that waste which can put a lot of stress on them. Especially without enough water!


Just based on your statement you may want to consider a raw diet.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Starbuck said:


> True! I forgot to mention that Acana was my third choice, only because their puppy food does *contain grains (oats), from which I understand are completely unnecessary*. Although it probably isn't much of a hinderance in a quality food like Acana,* I would like to try to stick with something that contains only essential ingredients for the most important part of life *- early growth and development! That's just my opinion. Once my puppy is done growing, like Murphy, I have no problem considering Acana's Regionals.
> 
> Thank you for the tip -- I know it's very important to provide fresh water because it helps the dog utilize the protein he's getting. I hear that low-quality proteins in dog foods are mostly wasted by the body, and the kidneys have to process that waste which can put a lot of stress on them. Especially without enough water!


Five years ago I fed my lab Orijen Large Breed Puppy and she did fine with it. The ingredient list has changed quite a bit since then with the inclusion of the now trendy peas and lentils. I will say that it is considerably harder to feed just the right amount of a high protein grain-free kibble to avoid soft/loose stools. It can be a real balancing act. Some dogs simply don't do well with them.

You're right that "oats" (grains) are unnecessary for dogs; but potatoes, peas or lentils are equally unnecessary for dogs. It boils down to a kibble needing to have some type of carbohydrate (be it rice, oats, potato or whatever) to bind the ingredients together during the cooking process. The more important aspect to focus on is what the carbohydrate percentage is in a kibble no matter if it comes from grains or vegetables. In general, lower is preferable to higher.

I don't think you can say that Orijen is better for a puppy because it contains only "essential ingredients". Orijen formulas, like Fromm grain-free formulas and many others on the market today are truly "kitchen sink" formulas. Every half-way good sounding ingredient from a human kitchen seems to be included. There are still kibbles out there that are more basic in ingredients but some would argue more scientifically formulated, but they tend not to get the heavy marketing.

I think Orijen, Acana and Fromm formulas are better than many on the market today(I have fed all of them); but I think you find others equally as good or better and sometimes for less money.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

MyBentley said:


> Five years ago I fed my lab Orijen Large Breed Puppy and she did fine with it. The ingredient list has changed quite a bit since then with the inclusion of the now trendy peas and lentils. I will say that it is considerably harder to feed just the right amount of a high protein grain-free kibble to avoid soft/loose stools. It can be a real balancing act. Some dogs simply don't do well with them.
> 
> You're right that "oats" (grains) are unnecessary for dogs; but potatoes, peas or lentils are equally unnecessary for dogs. It boils down to a kibble needing to have some type of carbohydrate (be it rice, oats, potato or whatever) to bind the ingredients together during the cooking process. The more important aspect to focus on is what the carbohydrate percentage is in a kibble no matter if it comes from grains or vegetables. In general, lower is preferable to higher.
> 
> ...


The difference is the ammount if the carbohydrate they use, while Orijen has a very high meat protein content because they use the carbohydrates a binder and nothing more, acana may (emphasis on may) use more oats than nessesary as a binder in their kibble, not an even fair comparison but if science diet made a grain free formula, it would still probably be in excess of half carbohydrates


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## Sheldon (Feb 27, 2013)

MyBentley said:


> That has been my experience with e-mails also. I never did get answers.


 I guess their target market in North America is the Canadian market. I travel the US for my job and often stop into pet stores on my travels.....Its common to hear complaints about distribution, but the store owners are always pretty tight lipped. I assume they must have protected territories which is not very common in this industry from what I have gathered. From the lack of communication, can only assume it takes no priority. Its funny how quickly Fromm and even nestle' as big as they are respond within a couple hours.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

People that feed Iams, Beneful etc fall for the great marketing. People that feed high quality food do research before a purchase...probably in just about everything they buy.


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## Sheldon (Feb 27, 2013)

murphy1 said:


> People that feed Iams, Beneful etc fall for the great marketing. People that feed high quality food do research before a purchase...probably in just about everything they buy.


 Or take the advice of a trusted friend or respected professional.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Sheldon said:


> Or take the advice of a trusted friend or respected professional.


I've had many "respected professionals" recommend science diet and royal canin, so much for that


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## Sheldon (Feb 27, 2013)

Tuco said:


> I've had many "respected professionals" recommend science diet and royal canin, so much for that
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 Don't feel bad my "trusted Friends" like Beneful. Thank god your here to help us!!


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## Starbuck (May 6, 2013)

Tuco said:


> Just based on your statement you may want to consider a raw diet.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I would love to have him on a raw diet. To be completely honest, I just don't think it's something I or the family can really stay fully committed to. Granted, I haven't looked very far into a raw diet, so correct me if I'm wrong!

In any case, my grandfather supplements his dogs' kibble with raw meat, and I will be asking him about that the next time we see him.




MyBentley said:


> Five years ago I fed my lab Orijen Large Breed Puppy and she did fine with it. The ingredient list has changed quite a bit since then with the inclusion of the now trendy peas and lentils. I will say that it is considerably harder to feed just the right amount of a high protein grain-free kibble to avoid soft/loose stools. It can be a real balancing act. Some dogs simply don't do well with them.
> 
> You're right that "oats" (grains) are unnecessary for dogs; but potatoes, peas or lentils are equally unnecessary for dogs. It boils down to a kibble needing to have some type of carbohydrate (be it rice, oats, potato or whatever) to bind the ingredients together during the cooking process. The more important aspect to focus on is what the carbohydrate percentage is in a kibble no matter if it comes from grains or vegetables. In general, lower is preferable to higher.
> 
> ...


Hmm, I see, that does make sense. Still, Orijen's Large Puppy is 80/20/0 where Acana's Large Puppy is 55/25/20. Just based on that, it looks like Orijen would be the better choice.

I suppose when I said "essential," I meant that even though both foods have carbs, a food that has more carbs than needed (if it's truly only for binding) is taking away from the percentage of the formula that could be meat instead, like Tuco said.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Starbuck said:


> I would love to have him on a raw diet. To be completely honest, I just don't think it's something I or the family can really stay fully committed to. Granted, I haven't looked very far into a raw diet, so correct me if I'm wrong!
> 
> In any case, my grandfather supplements his dogs' kibble with raw meat, and I will be asking him about that the next time we see him.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what particular reason you have for being reluctant, I'm gonna assume its time and then it's not as bad as you may think. What I do is go to the butcher or raw meat provider, get the meat and organs (it will likely cost less than Orijen and acana) every month or so, than I put a mix of meats bones and organs into separate bags for each day and freeze, every night I thaw out and give in the morning, if your worried about analysis, I've got a list I prepped for another member who was asking for what to feed that has a good amount of bone organ and meat and has about the same percentages as Orijen regional red. Remember it's not an exact science, I bet not a single member on this forum knows their calcium/phosphorus ratios or even their percentage sources of calories, yet they aren't dropping like flys, lol


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## Starbuck (May 6, 2013)

Tuco said:


> I'm not sure what particular reason you have for being reluctant, I'm gonna assume its time and then it's not as bad as you may think. What I do is go to the butcher or raw meat provider, get the meat and organs (it will likely cost less than Orijen and acana) every month or so, than I put a mix of meats bones and organs into separate bags for each day and freeze, every night I thaw out and give in the morning, if your worried about analysis, I've got a list I prepped for another member who was asking for what to feed that has a good amount of bone organ and meat and has about the same percentages as Orijen regional red. Remember it's not an exact science, I bet not a single member on this forum knows their calcium/phosphorus ratios or even their percentage sources of calories, yet they aren't dropping like flys, lol
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It mostly is because of time. But based on what you said, it looks similar to what I had planned to do either way with kibble: put the food in separate bags ahead of time so that I can easily give a measured serving each day. I wouldn't mind thinking about it, so if it's not much trouble, I would love to see your list.  I'll take a look and send it to my parents to see what they think too.

This is slightly random, but we also have a very small freezer that can barely hold the frozen food we have in it now! All I can think of is that we'd have to buy a separate freezer just for the dog's food.


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## dogloverforlife (Feb 17, 2013)

Tuco said:


> The difference is the ammount if the carbohydrate they use, while Orijen has a very high meat protein content because they use the carbohydrates a binder and nothing more, acana may (emphasis on may) use more oats than nessesary as a binder in their kibble, not an even fair comparison but if science diet made a grain free formula, it would still probably be in excess of half carbohydrates
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Science Diet does make a grain free. I think it is only 23% protein. So yes allot of carbs. 

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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Starbuck said:


> It mostly is because of time. But based on what you said, it looks similar to what I had planned to do either way with kibble: put the food in separate bags ahead of time so that I can easily give a measured serving each day. I wouldn't mind thinking about it, so if it's not much trouble, I would love to see your list.  I'll take a look and send it to my parents to see what they think too.
> 
> This is slightly random, but we also have a very small freezer that can barely hold the frozen food we have in it now! All I can think of is that we'd have to buy a separate freezer just for the dog's food.


I used to have a really small freezer but I still managed to do about 1 weeks worth of food in there with all of my food stuff, il send you the list


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

dogloverforlife said:


> Science Diet does make a grain free. I think it is only 23% protein. So yes allot of carbs.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yea potatoes are the first ingredient (technically although chicken is labeled as first it loses 60% of its water volume) than followed by potato starch, peas and pea protien concentrate, but with the grain free price we know and love LMAO


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

Tuco said:


> I really like Orijen, I feed raw, but if I were to feed kibble ( and in some situations I'm forced to) I would feed Orijen, champion foods the producer has had no recalls of their own faulting and, even 1 situation that was a government issue I feel they handled very well, they answer emails quickly, are notorious for the quality control and general quality of their food, and the ingredients inside them. Go with Orijen.
> 
> You must be on some sort of medication. Champion has had 4 recalls and one FDA investigation into moldy foods. If you are referring to the Australian recall you should read the documents on how they tried to cover it up. You have to work for Champion foods, no doubt.
> 
> ...


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

WasChampionFan said:


> Tuco said:
> 
> 
> > I really like Orijen, I feed raw, but if I were to feed kibble ( and in some situations I'm forced to) I would feed Orijen, champion foods the producer has had no recalls of their own faulting and, even 1 situation that was a government issue I feel they handled very well, they answer emails quickly, are notorious for the quality control and general quality of their food, and the ingredients inside them. Go with Orijen.
> ...


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Also interesting, right after your second post you were called out by 2 members for making other accounts on other dog forums all insulting/questioning champion food. Hipocracy is hilarious 


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Starbuck said:


> It mostly is because of time. But based on what you said, it looks similar to what I had planned to do either way with kibble: put the food in separate bags ahead of time so that I can easily give a measured serving each day. I wouldn't mind thinking about it, so if it's not much trouble, I would love to see your list.  I'll take a look and send it to my parents to see what they think too.
> 
> This is slightly random, but we also have a very small freezer that can barely hold the frozen food we have in it now! All I can think of is that we'd have to buy a separate freezer just for the dog's food.


Oh yea here are some photos of my operation lol






















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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Geez....I agree with you on alot of things. But please don't put a chunk of food on a sharp knife in front of your dog! What if he jumped to grab it!!!!


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

murphy1 said:


> Geez....I agree with you on alot of things. But please don't put a chunk of food on a sharp knife in front of your dog! What if he jumped to grab it!!!!


Yea I posted that I while back I don't know how the perspective worked but The knife was MUCH farther than it looks and it was right before I pulled the meat off the knife


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## Starbuck (May 6, 2013)

Tuco said:


> Oh yea here are some photos of my operation lol
> 
> View attachment 188578
> View attachment 188586
> ...


"Operation" haha, it's funny because body parts... 

Thanks for the list, I will look into it!


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

WOW one member got a temp ban and another member banned. These food threads sure do go downhill fast!

Starbuck have you decided what food to go with?


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## Starbuck (May 6, 2013)

RichsRetriever said:


> WOW one member got a temp ban and another member banned. These food threads sure do go downhill fast!
> 
> Starbuck have you decided what food to go with?


Yeah, I'm honestly not surprised, this being the internet and all. xD;

I'm probably going to do a part-kibble-part-raw diet like my grandfather does. Orijen Puppy Large for the kibble, and then I'm going to take into account the list that Tuco sent me as well as what my grandfather uses.


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

Starbuck said:


> I'm probably going to do a part-kibble-part-raw diet like my grandfather does. Orijen Puppy Large for the kibble, and then I'm going to take into account the list that Tuco sent me as well as what my grandfather uses.



What kind of meats / bones are you going to use? I'm been seriously thinking of feeding raw. If I did it, I'd probably do what you're doing, feed a little raw with kibble and if I can handle it I'd like to switch Zane over to a raw diet all the time.


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## dwiley (Aug 19, 2012)

RichsRetriever said:


> What kind of meats / bones are you going to use? I'm been seriously thinking of feeding raw. If I did it, I'd probably do what you're doing, feed a little raw with kibble and if I can handle it I'd like to switch Zane over to a raw diet all the time.


I loved feeding raw! You need to feed a mix of 80% muscle, 10% bone, and 10% organ with 5% of that being liver. The best part of feeding prey model raw is that you can feed whatever you can find! We fed almost every type of meat/cut at the grocery store (we bought whatever was on sale in bulk, I have a deep freezer), including tongue, heart, etc. We also got to order from a co-op and fed wild boar and venison. If you have friends who hunt or own a farm, you can ask for their scrap meat they don't use. The possibilities are endless!


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## Starbuck (May 6, 2013)

RichsRetriever said:


> What kind of meats / bones are you going to use? I'm been seriously thinking of feeding raw. If I did it, I'd probably do what you're doing, feed a little raw with kibble and if I can handle it I'd like to switch Zane over to a raw diet all the time.


I'm going to assume that Tuco doesn't mind sharing his list, so I'll send that to you in a moment!

Edit: Scratch that, I don't have a post count of 15+ so I can't send PMs to non-staff members. In that case, I'll just post it here.

(Tuco says feel free to make modifications as it's not an exact science, and this is for two weeks worth of food at around 2 lbs a day.)

1lb beef or chicken liver
1lb brain, pancreas, kidneys, eyes, or spleen
2lbs hearts
1-4lbs green tripe
1lb bone-in stew beef 
5lb chicken legs/wings or turkey legs/wings
3lbs pork side ribs
1lb pork bone
3lbs pork stew
4lbs any bone-in meat
2lbs any boneless meat


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I have just started a semi raw premade diet. I'm doing it every couple days right now. Maybe I'll do it more frequently as we do it longer--

Kibble for breakfast. Dinner is Dr Harvey's with a Bravo patty or Primal Nuggets. I have to try some other brands too. I've only done about 4 raw meals so far every other day for dinner only. The Dr Harvey's makes it easy. 


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I do a topper for my dogs most days. I use the Honest Kitchen dehydrated raw. They love it and it's easy for me since we are barely even able to keep food in our fridge for US let alone raw for the dogs


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## Sheldon (Feb 27, 2013)

RichsRetriever said:


> WOW one member got a temp ban and another member banned. These food threads sure do go downhill fast!
> 
> Starbuck have you decided what food to go with?


 Was there a post about someone getting banned? Can you sent me a link to the post?:wave:


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Sheldon said:


> Was there a post about someone getting banned? Can you sent me a link to the post?:wave:


We do not discuss bannings. 


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## Sheldon (Feb 27, 2013)

CarolinaCasey said:


> We do not discuss bannings.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 I'm aware of your policy, I just was under the impression by the post above that it had been made public knowledge and possibly a warning or cautionary post was made by the mods to deter future such posts.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

I have always received an answer from Champion Per Foods when I have inquired about Orijen. I'd say I've sent them 4 questions over the past 6 months (through their website). Unfortunately, they are not quick to respond. My questions were always answered in the 2-3 week timeframe. 

It's no surprise to many on this forum that I'm a fan of Orijen when it comes to dry kibble. I truly do believe its the best on the market. I recently read a few good books on raw diets and I have spent countless hours researching canine nutrition, what is available on the market, where they are manufactured, the ingredients, and the analyses. That combined with my healthcare education, I believe I'm at the very least much more educated than the average consumer. Having said all of that, I have come to the conclusion that the prey model raw diet is the best diet for our dogs. Perhaps a "modified prey model raw" to include a few other whole food supplements for some added antioxidants and phytonutrients but not added foods with the intention of adding carbohydrates. 

I have been feeding prey model on the weekends and Orijen during the week for quite awhile now. When I feed dry kibble to my dogs I get about the same feeling I get when I feed my children a "healthy" breakfast cereal. I think "That's pretty good for them." However, when I feed my dogs prey model raw it feels about like when I feed my children a nutritious, fresh home cooked meal. And, I think "This is what I should be feeding more often!"

Starbuck- You have available to you one of the best sources of raw foods. Mypetcarnivore.com They have a very wide variety of whole prey foods. Best of all these animals are either free-range, grass-fed, or wild. I feed whole chicken, whole turkey, whole rabbit, whole duck, whole beaver, whole muskrat, whole young beef, whole goat, whole lamb, green beef tripe and sometimes green lamb tripe. They also have depending on availability goose and bison. When they call it "whole" that means the entire animal minus the fur/feathers, intestines, and (when applicable) largest weight bearing bones. Otherwise, all the other bones, organs, eyes, brains, etc. are in there. 

Mypetcarnivore is out of Indianapolis, but they deliver monthly to many surrounding states. I live in central Illinois and they come to my city once a month at a drop off point. They deliver to Chicago as well. Sure, it's more expensive than going to the butcher, but it is almost as convenient as kibble. They come in 2lb deli containers and if it is a "whole" product you know you are feeding a balanced meal. The people at mypetcarnivore are about as friendly and helpful as you could ever ask. Nothing wrong with the butcher. You can get your meat from more than one source!


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## Starbuck (May 6, 2013)

stealle said:


> I have always received an answer from Champion Per Foods when I have inquired about Orijen. I'd say I've sent them 4 questions over the past 6 months (through their website). Unfortunately, they are not quick to respond. My questions were always answered in the 2-3 week timeframe.
> 
> It's no surprise to many on this forum that I'm a fan of Orijen when it comes to dry kibble. I truly do believe its the best on the market. I recently read a few good books on raw diets and I have spent countless hours researching canine nutrition, what is available on the market, where they are manufactured, the ingredients, and the analyses. That combined with my healthcare education, I believe I'm at the very least much more educated than the average consumer. Having said all of that, I have come to the conclusion that the prey model raw diet is the best diet for our dogs. Perhaps a "modified prey model raw" to include a few other whole food supplements for some added antioxidants and phytonutrients but not added foods with the intention of adding carbohydrates.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the info! As long as I have a say in it, we are indeed going with Orijen kibble. I really like your comparison between kibble and raw food, it definitely puts perspective on things. Even though I think a prey model diet may be out of range for us, I will give MyPetCarnivore a look!

On a similar note, I spoke with my grandfather today and he showed me what he feeds his dogs: Nature's Variety grain-free kibble, Nature's Variety "Bites", and Stella and Chewy's freeze-dried lamb (they're like patties).

I'm actually very interested in the Bites, they seem to be pretty balanced, and I know the opposite is one of the possible issues with a home-prepared raw diet. These types of frozen foods would also be less messy and easier to use for my family. My grandpa feeds his dogs kibble, Bites, and one freeze-dried patty as a meal, twice a day.

It seems like this is sort of in-between, not a completely raw diet but not just kibble either. When I think about all the choices I've been suggested so far, this seems like the best compromise for us in terms of nutrition for our Golden but also ease of preparation/use and less time-consuming for the family. Every option is a bit expensive, but that's a given at this point.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Notice I said I believe Orijen is the best dry kibble, but I also believe there are some better freeze dried option out there. Especially the one that are 90-100% meat. Most of the ones I've looked at are as expensive or more than raw though. 

I forgot to mention that I also top my dogs evening meal with about a 1/4 pound of raw green tripe from MPC. I believe raw green tripe is one of the best foods you can offer a dog. It's full of digestive enzymes and beneficial bacteria. It will help your dog digest the kibble including the starches in kibble. If you want to do a kibble/raw diet, you should consider using raw green tripe as being a big part of that.


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## Sheldon (Feb 27, 2013)

Its one thing to purchase food for my dog from a well recognized international company like Champion and it is a whole different thing to buy food (especially a raw product) off a truck in a parking lot. I would never buy food for my family from a vendor in a truck at the local BP station, so I would be pretty hard pressed to do the same for my dog.....but that's me.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Sheldon said:


> Its one thing to purchase food for my dog from a well recognized international company like Champion and it is a whole different thing to buy food (especially a raw product) off a truck in a parking lot. I would never buy food for my family from a vendor in a truck at the local BP station, so I would be pretty hard pressed to do the same for my dog.....but that's me.


Lol. It's too bad there is not a raw food pet market in every city. mypetcarnivore is a very well respected raw dog food supplier. They are very open about the source of their products (Schoenborn Family Farms). These are very high quality non-4D, non-denaturerd, hormone free, free-range, grass-fed, or wild meats. I only wish I had a local source of meat for my family close to my home. This stuff is much higher quality than I could pull off the shelf at my local grocery store. And often a bit more expensive too, but my dogs are worth it. 

It is delivered in a commercial freezer van. The product has always been delivered to me frozen hard as a rock. Does delivery somehow make it a bad product. What about grocery stores that deliver. Are they delivering an inferior product?


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## Sheldon (Feb 27, 2013)

stealle said:


> L Does delivery somehow make it a bad product. What about grocery stores that deliver. Are they delivering an inferior product?


 If you were approached by someone selling steaks or seafood from the back of a freezer truck at a convenience store, would you take some home for your family?.......now change the senario, you hear on the evening news that Walmart is now trying a new concept, under an agreement with the hamburger chain, Walmart will start selling fresh meat and seafood from mobile units at local McDonald restaurants in your area. Do you see the difference, I guess the term creditability comes to mind. 

Having driven a tractor trailer at one point in my life hauling frozen food.......you have no idea how strict these warehouses have to be on acceptance of food to prevent food born illnesses. They check the temps of every pallet coming off the trailer, any product not in a certain range (were talking very few degrees) gets dumped in the trash and the trucking company takes a hit. Its those kinds of assurances that the large national companies can offer (They have a huge liability and alot to lose).........but as we have seen in the past things go wrong, but they go wrong fast with raw meat products.
I'm just very picky where I purchase my food for my family, including my dogs........an I'm more sensitive them most, having lost a dog last year to contaminated food.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

I see your point. Hopefully you can see mine. I am not buying frozen foods from just "somebody". These are not random strangers driving around in a van. They are highly respected by raw communities. MPC is a highly respected family owned business. Feel free to contact them on Facebook. Or contact them by email. Most likely they will answer any questions the same day, often even on weekends. I am actually feeding my dog these products. It smells and looks and is a quality food. 

It takes a leap of faith anytime you buy meats from for your family or pets. Picky? OMG, I have so many people tell me I am the pickiest person they know. That's the reason I feed my dogs MPC and Orijen, because I have researched it to death and I insist on feeding my dogs the best. I'll probably switch to 100% raw from MPC in the not-too-distant future.


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## Sheldon (Feb 27, 2013)

Yes, I do see your point of view. I could just never buy from such a small operation, unless I personally knew those involved and their level of knowledge/expertise producing and distributing food grade meat products (very complex industry).Social proof ("*They are highly respected by raw communities")* is a great thing........but I have been fooled so many times it holds no value perspective at this point in my life.


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## Starbuck (May 6, 2013)

stealle said:


> Notice I said I believe Orijen is the best dry kibble, but I also believe there are some better freeze dried option out there. Especially the one that are 90-100% meat. Most of the ones I've looked at are as expensive or more than raw though.
> 
> I forgot to mention that I also top my dogs evening meal with about a 1/4 pound of raw green tripe from MPC. I believe raw green tripe is one of the best foods you can offer a dog. It's full of digestive enzymes and beneficial bacteria. It will help your dog digest the kibble including the starches in kibble. If you want to do a kibble/raw diet, you should consider using raw green tripe as being a big part of that.


Thanks for the suggestions! I will run them by my parents.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Sheldon said:


> Yes, I do see your point of view. I could just never buy from such a small operation,


Well, unfortunately that's just the world we live in. It's doubtful that I will see in my lifetime a large operation for raw dog food of the same quality as from MPC. Because, nothing will ever be as convenient and economical as dry dog food. Statistically, less than 2% of the population feeds raw. There just isn't a market for a large scale operation. 

I have actually met the owners. Had conversation, shook their hands. Paul & Suzanne are great people, very knowledgeable. They searched high and low for quality meats for their own dogs (a couple of beautiful Bernese mountain dogs). They decided to go into business to make these meats available to others. They are actually not that "small". They deliver to (I believe) 9 states!


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## Sheldon (Feb 27, 2013)

stealle said:


> Well, unfortunately that's just the world we live in. It's doubtful that I will see in my lifetime a large operation for raw dog food of the same quality as from MPC. Because, nothing will ever be as convenient and economical as dry dog food. Statistically, less than 2% of the population feeds raw. There just isn't a market for a large scale operation.
> 
> I have actually met the owners. Had conversation, shook their hands. Paul & Suzanne are great people, very knowledgeable. They searched high and low for quality meats for their own dogs (a couple of beautiful Bernese mountain dogs). They decided to go into business to make these meats available to others. They are actually not that "small". They deliver to (I believe) 9 states!


 Well your friends should be happy for all the exposure given them today on this board as well as your strong testimonial. I know many people here buy simply based on what other members feel is the best........using satisfied customers can be a very effective, inexpensive form of advertising.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Well, I would't call them my friends, but I have had a few conversations. I can't say I have had any conversation with whom ever is chopping up meat for my family. Most people don't these days. We just hope they are doing a good job and handling our food properly. Same with the teenage minimum wage "cooks" at most of the chain restaurants. Hopefully they don't sneeze in my food. 


Sheldon said:


> I know many people here buy simply based on what other members feel is the best...


If thats true. I can live with that. It's likely they'll be feeding their dogs higher quality food than they've ever had. And, there dogs will be drooling for more.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Starbuck said:


> Thanks for the suggestions! I will run them over with my parents.


Just in case you are unfamiliar with raw green tripe. Here is an article from the Whole Dog Journal: http://www.forhealthypetsonline.com/app/download/6257909604/WDJ+-+Green+Tripe.pdf

Green tripe is very nutritious. Has perfect calcium/phos ratio. Almost a perfect food when fed exclusively. Almost. 

There is some even better info out their but I can't locate it at the moment. To get the most benefit from it, it really does need to be raw/frozen. Don't be scared off by all the comments you read about how it smells. It's not nearly as bad as most people say. At least not the stuff from MPC. It had some smell of a barn or manure, but you need to be close to it to smell it. It's not like it smells up the whole house.


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## Sadiegirl128 (Mar 28, 2014)

I decided to feed my puppy Orijen large breed dry food after reading about all the many brands available to choose from.

My question is do you think the high protein content is too much for a puppy?

Thanks for your replies


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Sadiegirl128 said:


> I decided to feed my puppy Orijen large breed dry food after reading about all the many brands available to choose from.
> 
> My question is do you think the high protein content is too much for a puppy?
> 
> Thanks for your replies


No absolutely not. You will not get that same response from many on this forum, but no... a high protein diet is not bad for puppies, adults dogs, or geriatric dogs.

Here is more information:
Champion Petfoods | Library


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

The reason I don't agree is that there is some indication that high protein has a correlation to panosteitis and rapid growth. Neither are good things for Goldens. Something to consider. Personally I think Orijen is too high protein for a growing puppy. 


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

The cause of panosteitis is unknown. However, since it is largely breed specific, genetics are most likely to blame. Panosteitis is painful but benign and typically outgrown by 18 months. I'm glad I didn't deny my golden pup what is probably the best dry kibble available, Orijen, because of an unfounded theory of a benign temporary condition.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

If you had a pup with pano I don't think you would refer to it as a benign temporary condition. One of our dogs suffered from it for almost a year so I do not dismiss the possible link to pano and rapid growth so casually. The great thing is that we all have our own opinions on what constitutes the "best" food for our dogs. 


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Murphy did great on Orijen puppy.


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