# Sudden aggression...



## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

Sounds like he's testing them to me. He wants to be the boss so you'll have to keep working on him knowing that's not the case. There's lots of good info here on the forum. We have been going through it too with our dominant girl but the training and nothing in life is free method has done wonders.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Stop pulling things out of his mouth just 'cuz you have a thumb and you can! After a while, dogs learn they can use aggression to try and keep their stolen goodies. Teach him to drop it by trading. With ENOUGH practice, you no longer need to use the treat to elicit the trade. And please tell your dad to stop alpha rolling. It's a mis guided attempt at leadership and will likely make the problem worse. And of course, management goes a long way toward teaching the dog to not steal stuff in the first place.


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## allux00 (Mar 2, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Stop pulling things out of his mouth just 'cuz you have a thumb and you can! After a while, dogs learn they can use aggression to try and keep their stolen goodies. Teach him to drop it by trading. With ENOUGH practice, you no longer need to use the treat to elicit the trade. And please tell your dad to stop alpha rolling. It's a mis guided attempt at leadership and will likely make the problem worse. And of course, management goes a long way toward teaching the dog to not steal stuff in the first place.


I always try and reinforce his good behavior (Eh eh! Get down, good boy) I also give him his drop it lessons when we're playing fetch. He's very stubborn sometimes, I hope he will get the idea someday, just at the moment it's very frustrating knowing how smart he is and how unwilling he can be to listen.

And about the Dad thing, it's so hard to try and tell him anything about dog training anymore because ever since he discovered the "amazing dog whisperer" on TV, he's all about this "pack leader" stuff. If I hear those words one more time I'm breaking the cable box! Although he did help us with the unnecessary barking when someone's at the door or comes in the house.

I will try and spend extra extra time on trading. Thank you very much


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Don't don't generalize well, so "trade" when you're playing ball isn't the same as "trade" when he's stolen a piece of paper. That's why it doens't work as well in those instances yet. Just make a point to view stolen items as a training opportunity for now - that plus management (asking yoursels, why was he able to get to the item he stole in the first place) should ultimately resolve your problem.


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## cinnamonteal (May 16, 2008)

My puppy class instructor told me to make a game out of it when Caleb would take things he shouldn't have. We've gotten it to work well with things that he finds and picks up, like shoes and clothes and stuff. Less with napkins and other things that he considers "edible". But here's what you do. When he picks up something that he shouldn't have (lets say one of your favorite shoes) tell him to bring it to you and praise him like crazy and trade him a yummy treat for it. The point is make Rusty bring everything he finds to you.

Could be worth a try.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

cinnamonteal said:


> My puppy class instructor told me to make a game out of it when Caleb would take things he shouldn't have. We've gotten it to work well with things that he finds and picks up, like shoes and clothes and stuff. Less with napkins and other things that he considers "edible". But here's what you do. When he picks up something that he shouldn't have (lets say one of your favorite shoes) tell him to bring it to you and praise him like crazy and trade him a yummy treat for it. The point is make Rusty bring everything he finds to you.
> 
> Could be worth a try.



That can work really well, in fact when working with dogs who seriously guard stolen object, that's exactly what we do to fix it: teach them to retrieve whatever they steal.


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## allux00 (Mar 2, 2008)

cinnamonteal said:


> My puppy class instructor told me to make a game out of it when Caleb would take things he shouldn't have. We've gotten it to work well with things that he finds and picks up, like shoes and clothes and stuff. Less with napkins and other things that he considers "edible". But here's what you do. When he picks up something that he shouldn't have (lets say one of your favorite shoes) tell him to bring it to you and praise him like crazy and trade him a yummy treat for it. The point is make Rusty bring everything he finds to you.
> 
> Could be worth a try.


That's an awesome way to do it!! Thank you  I'm sure I'll have plenty of practice within the next hour LOLl 

thank you everyone


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

> And about the Dad thing, it's so hard to try and tell him anything about dog training anymore because ever since he discovered the "amazing dog whisperer" on TV, he's all about this "pack leader" stuff. If I hear those words one more time I'm breaking the cable box! Although he did help us with the unnecessary barking when someone's at the door or comes in the house.


Your dad may not know, but Cesar Millan's techniques are very controversial. Other dog behaviorists suggest that he's simply getting the dog to suppress the unwanted/aggressive behavior. And since it's a TV show, he naturally chooses the dogs he thinks he can help.

(And I'm no expert, but dog trainers suggest that the alpha roll will usually make the aggression problem worse--and get you bitten.)

Here's just one piece, a response to Malcolm Gladwell's New Yorker piece about Cesar, which includes links to some other commentary. Try Google as well. 
I think Gladwell makes a very important point, quoted below. What Cesar says (the aggressive posturing which is what your father is listening to) and what he does (the gentle, quiet interaction which seems to get the results with the dogs) are very, very different.

You might try showing this to your Dad, especially the Gladwell piece which is generally positive but cautions about mis-applying Cesar's techniques.


http://gladwell.typepad.com/gladwellcom/2006/05/the_dog_whisper.html



> What you also realize is that Cesar's overwhelming focus is nearly always on the owners of dogs—not on the dog's themselves. He spends most of his time trying to teach owners how to create a healthy environment for their dog: the importance of regular exercise, of clarity and consistency in communication, and so on. And despite all his talk about dominance and being a pack leader, what is striking about Cesar viewed in full context (and this is one of the major themes of my article) is how paradoxically gentle he is. That's why, in the piece, I compare the way he relates to troubled dogs with the way movement therapists work with autistic children.
> 
> I should reiterate that this is not an area in which I'm an expert. There may well be legitimate issues about how the kinds of methods Cesar uses, under some circumstances. I think as well that Bradley and others are quite right in worrying about the impact of an unsophisticated reading of Cesar's approach on the way we treat dogs. *If you do what he says, and not what he does, I think you miss what makes him effective.*


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

aka: Penny's Mom

I always have to smile what a young dog is labeled "stubborn". He's not being stubborn, he's a puppy: everything is a game.

I agree with trading for the stolen object. We keep a jar of very small puppy biscuits just so we can give Penny a little trade. A bowl with several Cheerios or Rice Chex in it can work too.

A also agree that the alpha roll does more harm than good. Tell Dad that he'll catch more flies with sugar than vinegar.

My other advice is to keep things picked up so puppy doesn't have so many opportunities to steal things.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> That can work really well, in fact when working with dogs who seriously guard stolen object, that's exactly what we do to fix it: teach them to retrieve whatever they steal.


Just happend here last night...
Lexi raided the garbage can...keep in mind the can has a lid....she has learned how to flip it with her nose...we keep the dog dishes on it for weight, but sometimes the boys forget...
Anyway she grabbed some papertowel, a can and some wax paper and headed toward a corner...

If I had shouted LEXI! while she was cornered and went to grab the stolen items. She would have 
A. tried to gobble up the paper as fast as she could or 
B. shown her teeth and growled...

Instead of going to her, I go to the treat jar...
She brings me the can she gets a treat.
She then retrieves every pieces of paper she has torn up....getting a treat for every item...

Some folks worry if I am training her to steal from the trash...
To my mind....the stealing is already done...
Its now about the process of surrendering the object...

This time it was harmless items...paper etc...
What if next time is is my husband pill bottle or my favorite shoes or a knife from the kitchen counter?

If I choose to confront and 'force' her to surrender everytime - not only is it dangerous, but I create pages and pages of history with her about what it means to give up something...and it never goes in her favor...

If I choose to trade with her, then I build up that history...
When she brings things to me, even (and especially) things she has stolen...she will never be punished or scolded...


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

LibertyME said:


> Just happend here last night...
> Lexi raided the garbage can...keep in mind the can has a lid....she has learned how to flip it with her nose...we keep the dog dishes on it for weight, but sometimes the boys forget...
> Anyway she grabbed some papertowel, a can and some wax paper and headed toward a corner...
> 
> ...


:appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl:

YOU ROCK!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm getting a better education on this board than I could get in 20 years of school.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> :appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl:
> 
> YOU ROCK!


Thanks Steph....
Trust me it was trial and error :no:
I have learned much from my dear red girl. More then I could have ever imagined...


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## allux00 (Mar 2, 2008)

Thanks everyone! Mary, you sound like a great an patient mom, lol. 

We've been using the trading for 2 days and it works like a charm! Much less frustrating than chasing him around or getting angry. I actually think its funny how he tries to get whatever it is out of his mouth as fast as he can, even trying to use his paws . He knows drop it well, I'm sure of it now, because as soon as I said it the first time I traded him he did it. I don't know how to get him to bring it to me, because he drops it no matter where he is when he sees the treat, but I'm sure once I'm doing it for a while it'll click for him. Me and my dad were laughing today, because when I offered him a piece of popcorn for his paper towel, he tore it up into several pieces first, and kept picking them up one by one, maybe to get all the popcorn he could get  

So thank you, everyone, I believe this is going to work in the longrun! Sometimes I just underestimate how smart he is, it amazes me how fast he can put the pieces together.


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## cinnamonteal (May 16, 2008)

Yay! I'm so glad that it's working for you! 
The paper towel story is too funny! That's one smart pup you've got. :


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Glad it is off to a good beginning.....

The hard part is when you/your dad/mom are scared or upset at what he has stolen....trading isnt as easy as it sound when youre upset...
So dont forget the management part...try to set up the house so he _cant _steal ...get a fliptop trash can or start keeping your trash can in a closet... keep dishes off the counter.... shoes in the closet... important papers in the file cabinet... 
Sometimes managment means big family changes, sometimes the changes are easy-peasy 

Your father must be a good Dad to be willing to listen and at least give your ideas a try ideas...


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## allux00 (Mar 2, 2008)

LibertyME said:


> Glad it is off to a good beginning.....
> 
> The hard part is when you/your dad/mom are scared or upset at what he has stolen....trading isnt as easy as it sound when youre upset...
> So dont forget the management part...try to set up the house so he _cant _steal ...get a fliptop trash can or start keeping your trash can in a closet... keep dishes off the counter.... shoes in the closet... important papers in the file cabinet...
> ...


Our house is usually not easy to swipe things from as my mom is obsessive about cleaning : The top of our trashcan just got broken off so he's been helping himself this week, so this really came in handy. 

My dad is a great dad, but we're both pretty stubborn and often don't see eye to eye, so I was afraid he wouldn't listen after pledging his loyalty to the great Cesar : But he's seen the sense in it and now everyone's taking part. 

Thanks again


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