# Help in breeding!!!!



## Roxy04 (Dec 15, 2005)

My Golden is 15 months old and is still not on heat and someone told me something about "tied" and i was looking for someone that may know what that is because i am just bamboozled and i have never breed a dog before and have no idea how it all works lol

Thankyou i would appreciate any advise anyone can offer me

Alison (roxy04 name of girl golden):wave:


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

Alison,
Please wait and educate yourself a little. please. first of all you should not breed until your dog has all her health clearances and she cannot get them until she is 2 years old. 
I dont know exactly what your motivation is, but unfortunately it sounds way too much like $$$$. Your goal in breeding should be to improve the breed. I understand that there are literally thousands of litters out there indiscriminently breeding not just goldens, but all breeds. 
I challenge you to jump to the top and be responsible. There are way too many dogs in rescue sites now. Many of them with genetic related health problems. 
I am not criticizing you. I understand how it is with so many people thinking that an AKC golden is an AKC golden and that is all that is needed. Get the health clearances, breed only to a male that has the same, and carefully select homes for your pups. 
thank you for listening to me rave on..


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

Alison, I have to agree with Greg about the breeding.I would also ask your vet why your Golden has note come into heat yet.I'v never had an unfixed female dog, so I suggest your vet.
Please wait on breeding her yet and please before you decide,spend some time at some of the Golden Rescue sites.There are so many Goldens without homes.
Shane


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## Roxy04 (Dec 15, 2005)

*Thankyou*

Thankyou for you reply to my question. I toke your reply in its intended manner and not the way that many would have as easy as it would have been and i think that you may have misunderstood me and i do not plan to breed my dog yet as i am waiting for her second cycle and was purely just trying to get some info on it and there is no way in this world that i would breed my dog just for the money factor and plan on getting a complete check over for my dog as she has come from a terrific background of champions and would like to keep that in her blood plus i plan to register with the NSW canine council so health checks are no question here. I love my dog and she is a dear part of our family and would never do anything to put her or her litter at risk but i thankyou for your advise and was trying to find out what a tie is.

Alison


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

I'm glad to hear that you are so well informed and doing the breeding correctly.
As to "tied", Well, I'd like to know myself.
Shane


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Has something to do with the male dog being 'trapped' for awhile within the female... I'm sure you've must have seen this a time or two. ...Need I explain in any more detail???


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

I have only heard of that being called "coupled",but you learn something new everyday.Or at least I try to,
Shane


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## Roxy04 (Dec 15, 2005)

*No idea*

I wish i knew what you meant but to my embarrassment i have no idea ha ha 

I have never breed a dog before and dont know to much about it, just what the breeder i brought her from has told me.

I try to do everything write to help her be healthy as i know that Goldens are pron to arthritis so i make sure i feed her good food and give her healthy treats and take her for short walks not to often but she does not seem to be coming on heat or i am just missing it ha ha.

Alison:uhoh:


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## goldensonly (Jun 13, 2005)

Hello!

I know I haven't been here for a long time, and this is the first thread that I read when I got here... but I am going to come down a lot harder than Greg did.......... Absolutely positively do not breed your dog. 

Only *unless and until *you have read tons and tons and tons and tons 
(get the idea?????) and educated yourself. If you have to ask what
a tie is, ... and I don't mean to insult you or anyone who doesn't know...
but you have NO business even thinking of breeding your female. The "tie" 
is one of the basic things of breeding and is ONLY the very beginning of some
very hard work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If I were you I would schedule an appointment, have my puppy (yes...15 months old is a puppy!!) spayed....she can live a long healthy happy life as your GREAT family pet.

Oh...now you can blast me........


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Well.....good breeders have to start somewhere. I wouldn't necessarily tell someone to automatically spay their pet and not even consider the idea. But Martha, I know exactly where you are coming from. People walk in with high hopes and don't get what they expect and dogs suffer.

From my experience with Lucky...who was obviously bred for pure profit....I have to say that a breeder should not even consider profit as a motive...AT ALL!!!! Not even a little bit. And a breeder must be prepared to actually go in the HOLE if they have to if that is what it takes to keep puppies and mom healthy.

In other words....this is something that must be considered as a volunteer service or even better yet...a life's work driven by the outcome, not your pocket book. You would enjoy it, you could accomplish magnificant things with the puppies and you spend money. Money that you know you have before you even start. And you should be prepared to spend a lot of it.

Ever since I got Lucky, and almost lost him that first week, I've thought about this. If I had money and the proper environment, then I'd get the knowledge and training involved and would consider breeding.


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## timberwolfe (Apr 15, 2005)

GO, I think you are being a bit too harsh too quickly. I'm assuming Roxy is on the path of learning and will only breed her dog once all health clearances are done and she has found a suitable male and she has learned more about what is involved with breeding and raising pups including all costs that could be incurred.

To tell you the truth, I find a lot of breeders to be snobs and they frown upon others who want to start breeding. I totally agree that there are too many unwanted dogs out there now, and way too many backyard breeders and puppy mills. But, there is room for someone who wants to do it responsibly.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I may have high expectations on this, but I do agree with you Timberwolf that there is lots of room and NEED for responsible breeders.


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## goldensonly (Jun 13, 2005)

timberwolfe said:


> GO, I think you are being a bit too harsh too quickly. I'm assuming Roxy is on the path of learning and will only breed her dog once all health clearances are done and she has found a suitable male and she has learned more about what is involved with breeding and raising pups including all costs that could be incurred.
> To tell you the truth, I find a lot of breeders to be snobs and they frown upon others who want to start breeding. I totally agree that there are too many unwanted dogs out there now, and way too many backyard breeders and puppy mills. But, there is room for someone who wants to do it responsibly.


Hey TW!!! I knew I was being harsh... playing a little bit of "devil's advocate"... hopefully Roxy will READ AND READ AND READ AND READ...
before ever even consider breeding!!!

You know I'm NOT a breeder snob!  I think some of those who have the attitude of "I can breed, but YOU can't" are totally out of line, too.... 
Just hoping for the best with Roxy and her baby!!!


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## Roxy04 (Dec 15, 2005)

Well thankyou to all that put a little faith in man kind and i dont want to insult anyone so ill say this as nice as i can, there is obviously a reason i joined a forum and ask questions about breeding so that i can obtain information and do it correctly. i dont plan to breed my dog for another 12 months and want to learn as much as i can for roxy is a loved part of our family and would never do anything like breed her uneducated and put her our her litter in harms way. I know that most people that reply are from USA and i take it that you have a much bigger abandoned dog issue than we do and have educated myself through websites and have come to the conclusion that we do have a small abandoned dog issue but did not come across 1 golden and girls are actually in high demand. I made sure i brought my dog from a very qualified breeder and excellent blood line and strive to be one myself and have pure breed excellent blood golden litters. I appreciate that there are people out there that speak up for those that can not speak and commend them. But i am not that enemy and know what i want from my dog and that is to love her as a family member and give her the best life that i can which included letting her be a mummy.

Thankyou for all advise, i take it constructively.


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## kingsgold (Dec 16, 2005)

Hi Roxy04,
I live in Sydney also and have been breeding Goldens for over 25 years and also past President of the NSW Golden Retriever Club. Please feel free to ring or Email me. My details can be found on my Web site "www.kingsgold.net"


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

Alison,Now that we know more about you,I have to agree with Timberwolf.
You seem to be the type of person who would do a GReat job breeding your Golden.
I didn't realize that Australia didn't have an abandoned Golden problem.I guess that Americans live with more of a "throw away" attitude than others.
We have way too many Goldens in need of a good home and maybe we overreact when we think someone might be a "backyard" breeder.Here is a link to the National Rescue site.It contains links to Golden Rescue groups state by state,Please look at some just to educate yourself and understand where our mindset is coming from.
Good Luck is nice to say,but I think you will do it the correct way and luck won't come into play.
Shane


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

kingsgold, Welcome to the pack.Your web site is AWESOME!! I didn't have time to look around now,but I will be back later.
Shane


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Roxy04,
You are not the enemy...though I can see why you might be intimidated by some of our responses, including mine. This is a great board...I've learned so much. Don't be afraid to stay on, learn and let us know your experiences. I think its wonderful Kingsgold has offered assistance. Boy, I'd jump at that. I for one would learn by your first-time experience. Who knows...I might have the time and recourses in the future.
Cyndi


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## Roxy04 (Dec 15, 2005)

*Thankyou*

Thankyou very much for the faith and i assure you it is genuine and i want to express that my dogs are a part of my family and if she could not have pups then i would love her no less as she is a beautiful dog with a lot of love, even if she does express it with holes in my garden and everything that comes into her contact chewed apart ha ha ha 

I had to send my male dog odie to a family members house as i found blood in my backyard this morning and she is indeed on heat and dont wish to breed her this time as she is still to young and i want her to be the best mum that she can and she can do that better when she is a little older.

I did find out a little more about tying and it is actually a little scary as he becomes trapped inside her and they can stay locked bum to bum for up to an hour ( i put that in for anyone that was curious after i had asked)

I would love to keep all interested updated with the progress of her breeding when it comes into play

P.s i think you may have forgot to add that link for the website you mentioned and am interested to see how things are in your country.

Alison
:bowl:


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

:doh: Pardon me,Alison, I though it was there.I'll post it here,
http://www.grca-nrc.org/
These are all GReat people doing Great things. I also want to point out that we have a forum catorgory just for Rescue Groups to use.There are some links there also. You can use this link to go there.
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=54
Shane


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## timberwolfe (Apr 15, 2005)

GO, ya I know you aren't one of those Breeder Snobs. But maybe your response was a tad too harsh.

I've seen too many breeding snobs though and anytime anyone talks about wanting to breed they jump right on that person and often scare them away from the forum. The same forum that is a great place to learn how and why you should breed.


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## ron (Sep 16, 2005)

I agree with Martha in Iowa. There are currently about 125000 dogs up for adoption, just on Petfinder.com. 2500 Goldens. Let's continue rescuing, until we get it under control. I understand how much we all love those beautiful little puppies, but I have found NOTHING more rewarding than making a Golden's last years their best years.
Good Luck
Ron


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## timberwolfe (Apr 15, 2005)

I agree whole heartedly about adopting, in fact we may do that for our next dog. It will either be a Golden puppy or a rescue dog. Goldens are rare around here in rescues.

But that doesn't mean that a responsible person shouldn't breed their dog. Especially if in her area abandoned pets aren't a huge problem. If you think about it, reputable breeders also do their part by educating people. If a family comes to them and during interviews the breeder comes to the conclusion that the family isn't ready for a dog, especially a hunting dog, and explains to the family why, then that breeder may have just saved that family a lot of grief. If that same family had gone to a pet store or backyard breeder, then that puppy they got may have ended up tied outside or abandoned to a rescue.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I personally think its arrogant for someone to assume that all families must choose a rescue. I have young children, and I should have at least the option to choose a well-bred, good tempered dog, with known health records from a reputable breeder. I'd like the advice and vetting that these breeders would provide. Perhaps this isn't the best choice for a poor dog in a shelter...but I might consider it the premium choice for the well-being of my kids.

I don't think intimidating people on this subject is helpful. The market will always be there...its a matter of WHO is supplying the puppies.

People who might wish to breed should be treated with honesty for sure....but also a little respect.


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## ron (Sep 16, 2005)

Lucky's Mom
I think it is unfortunate that you sense arrogance in someone trying to speak about the positives of "rescue"
If you are interested in "rescue", and also care about the well-being of your children, you just have to wait until March or so. That is when all the people that got puppies for Christmas, realize how much work a puppy is, and give it up for adoption. 
I also don't understand how you sense intimidation, from people sharing information, about the struggles of trying to Breed dogs correctly
I do not sense arrogance, or intimidation from anyone.
I sensed honesty, and respect

You sound angry! 
Try not to be!  This is a great place for people who love all dogs, especially Golden's
Good Luck
Ron


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## ron (Sep 16, 2005)

Timberwolfe
Point well taken
Good luck in your quest to be a great breeder!
I wish you the best! Keep asking questions
Ron


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

I applaud Roxy for doing all she can to educate herself. We have a wealth of knowledge on this board, and she has the right to ask lots of questions. People outside of the U.S. also need to understand that we do have an epidemic here of dogs soley bred for money, then discarded when it's no longer fun or convenient to have them around. Rescue as a responsible option. Not only are there wonderful dogs of virtually every age and temperment available who need good homes, but they cost significantly less than most puppies from reputable breeders. So if it's a choice between buying from a backyard breeder because that's all you can afford, or rescuing, I'd advise rescue every time.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Ron,
You are right. This is getting me a little hot. Not you...the subject itsself grates me. That means I should get off the subject and chill. But I hate when my main point is missed so I thought I would quote myself.


Lucky's mom said:


> I have young children, and I should have at least the option to choose a well-bred, good tempered dog, with known health records from a reputable breeder. I'd like the advice and vetting that these breeders would provide.


Christmas puppies are a sad thing but wouldnt work for the family interested in the points I made up above. How healthy were their parents? How were they REALLY treated? What's known about the temperment factor within their breeding? There are some "if" of taking a "Christmas Puppy" that some families might deem to risky for their kids.


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## Roxy04 (Dec 15, 2005)

I thank everyone for the help and faith in me and what i am trying to do. But i do have a little bone to pick and that is that it was said and i quote "wait till march and that is when ALL christmas puppies get abandoned" not exact words but same meaning, and i have to say that i got Roxy and Odie for christmas of 04 and that is not 1 but 2 puppies and i still have mine and love them very very much and yes they can be stressful at time plus at that time i had a 6 month old baby and a 4 year old but not everyone out there runs from responsibility, when you buy a dog and transfer them into your name you are taking on a lifetime of responsibility and belive me that not everyone forgets about that. More care should be taken when writing something as not to offend the many descent people out there that actually want to breed for pleasure of your beloved dog having puppies and giving other people out there the opportunity to enjoy and have a lifetime of Golden love. Also we do not have a problem with abandoned dogs here in australia, its more cats that are the problem. I just advise that people take a little more care in writing there opinion as not to offend anyone and scare them away from the site as i have found it very helpful but if i was not already a thick skinned person i probably would not have come back, but am glad i did.

Alison


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

Luckys Mom, You said


> I personally think its arrogant for someone to assume that all families must choose a rescue. I have young children, and I should have at least the option to choose a well-bred, good tempered dog, with known health records from a reputable breeder. I'd like the advice and vetting that these breeders would provide.


Where in this thread did anyone say that ALL familys MUST choose a rescue,because I somehow missed it.
Yes I push for people to adopt a rescue,but I would NEVER say that it's the only way to get a Golden.Maybe you should look at some of the Golden Rescue sites yourself.
This forum is for ALL Golden Lovers.I don't care where the Golden came from,But I care how they are treated by their owners.
I think that you have put words into peoples mouths that were never there.
You really need to slow down and read what people are saying.
Shane


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

shaneamber said:


> Luckys Mom, You said
> Where in this thread did anyone say that ALL familys MUST choose a rescue,because I somehow missed it.
> Yes I push for people to adopt a rescue,but I would NEVER say that it's the only way to get a Golden.Maybe you should look at some of the Golden Rescue sites yourself.
> This forum is for ALL Golden Lovers.I don't care where the Golden came from,But I care how they are treated by their owners.
> ...


Well, I did what you said and re-read the thread....and I'm still seeing it. Perhaps I'm one of those "conspiracy-paranoid" people. I've already talked to my husband about a rescue if something happened to Lucky. Part of my irritation is being told to look at rescue sites and think about those 'Christmas puppies" when that has nothing to do with what I was saying. 
All the dogs I grew up with or owned (Seven total) have been unwanted dogs, strays, some abused, some grown....all have been wonderful, long-lived family pets. Our most sweetest dog, was starved, beaten and scared to death of people when we got her. I've got good experience with what some would call the "iffy" dogs and thus would be comfortable with a rescue even with my small children...but that's me.


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

Luckys Mom,Perhaps you could copy and paste the exact words that say ALL familys MUST adopt a rescue. I must have missed that somehow,now you have me concerned that something is wrong with my eyes.
I don't agree that ALL Christmas puppies are abandoned,But SOME are.That's a sad fact.
Please elighten me.
Shane
BTW.Any Golden that makes it to a Rescue group,is fully vetted,washed,groomed and then lives with a foster family who evaluates the dog.When they have settled in and a determination of their actions with others is made,then and only then are they placed with a family that they will blend with.ie. Cat hating Goldens do not go to familys with cats. When you adopt,you sign a contract that is enforced.They will visit you and check your background,house and how you take care of your Golden.How many breeders do as much.Only the best breeders worry about the background of their clients,certainly not pet stores.


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## ron (Sep 16, 2005)

There is nothing like a spirited conversation, especially when it comes our beloved Golden's. Let's not take things so literal. Yes I said, March is when ALL the Christmas puppies come to the shelter. I would hope you know what I mean by "ALL". I am not insinuating that EVERYONE abandons there puppies! C'mon now. It means that March or so is when ALL the puppies that will be abandoned get abandoned. I understand how beautiful puppies are, and I conceded that timberwolfe had a point, but here in the USof A WE have a serious rescue problem. SERIOUS!!!! I Firmly believe in rescue! My mind cannot be changed. You do not have to agree with me. I am involved in Golden rescue in one way or another on a daily basis. I work lots of hours so my time is limited, but I do everything I can.
BTW "Shaneamber, Great point about a rescue dog being fully vetted etc.
I will continue to push rescue, and I will continue to LOVE goldens, AND I will continue to visit this site.
Good Luck to ALL


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Wow, I've never seen a thread on this forum fill-up so fast (other than that other 'I want to become a breeder' thread started back in the summer... "huge paws and head" Rusty, remember?)

But this thread seems to have taken a different turn, away from discouraging the neophyte breeder, and toward taking in rescues rather than getting a puppy??? at least this is the message I think I'm reading...

So, if everyone else gets to discuss this stuff, I thought I too should get in on the action. What I'm going to say may not be popular and may even shock some but here goes...

Though taking in a rescue is indeed a noble thing to do, I for one cannot bring myself to do it. My wife's brother practically collects them... he's up to 3 now. The medical expenses are just killing their finances and the heart break is at times almost unbearble... I will not go into each animal's medical problems here except to say the 3 range from puppy to old and all have major medical issues which were not apparent when each was adopted. For me (and my wife) each time we've lost a pet in the past we've taken a major emotional hit and it doesn't get any easier with each pet. People who take in one 'rescue' after another must be made of something real special because they are willing to get a dog who's medical history they know nothing about and genealogy is unknown, behavioral issues are also often unknown until the dog can get comfortable and 'relax' say about 2 or 3 months down the road. Part of the dog's life has already been lived and so you're that much closer to 'the end'... and the heart ache. Some of us are just not made that tough... we can only get our hearts broken so many times and then 'no more'.

Now to take this from another angle... I believe just about all inheritable health problems (and some behavioral issues as well) stem from poor breeding practices... and 'bad breeders' along with many 'backyard' breeders are specifically to blame. Do you really think Lord Tweedmouth bred sub-standard dogs??? dogs with allergies and hot-spots, dogs who were afraid of water, dogs who do not retrieve, dogs with hip dysplasia and other diseases of the bones/joints, dogs with bad hearts, dogs prone to cancers, dogs with bad temperaments, etc etc etc...??? I've got to then think that all these defects that exist in the breed today must have come from indiscriminate breeding by breeders who didn't take all the time and make all effort to learn about the breed FIRST before purchasing their breeding stock or from those breeders who cared more about profit and less about the breed. If you want to try to get a handle on health/temperament defects in the breed then you start with the breeders. HOWEVER.... if you are concerned with rescue animals then you're concern is NOT the breeders but rather the puppy owners... THIS IS THE SOURCE of all the unwanted dogs in rescue. Breeders only breed to fill a demand for puppies. If you want to actually do something about all the unwanted dogs, merely adopting them out will do nothing to reduce the numbers (in fact I believe I can mount a convincing argument that rescue may have even increase the numbers of unwanted pets). The answer is through education and liscensing... which can only be really effective by passing new laws governing dog ownership. 

My personal fantasy: I wish new dog owners were required to attend a series of classes directed at responsible dog ownership before being able to purchase a puppy or dog and have it licensed, which would also be mandatory... and the dog would have to be present and inspected at the time of licensing and at the yearly renewals.

Bottomline here is... if all the passion (and money) that good-hearted people bring to dog rescue could be directed toward responsible dog ownership education and laws then I believe a significant reduction in the number of unwanted animals could actually be realized.

What I've written is not a popular view but it is the truth as I see it.


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## ron (Sep 16, 2005)

Monomer, Although I believe you have made some very valid points, and I do believe education can always help with anything, I do not agree that moving passions to education will do anything to solve the MILLIONS of unwanted, abused, abandoned, mistreated dogs in this country.
The same way the "War on drugs" has not worked. We spend, punish, spend, punish, yet we have a bigger drug problem than before.
Same goes for the despicable people that Breed dogs for profit only. What we should do is ALL agree to NEVER buy ANYTHING from a pet store that sells pets. DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THEM. If we put all the puppy stores out of business, the millers will have less, and less people to sell to. Education comes in by explaining to people they are perpetuating the problem by supporting those stores. Yes it is VERY difficult to lose a pet, but the reward, and love of saving a needy pet, FAR outweighs the loss.
I do agree that some people may have trouble paying to take care of a rescue, especially an older one.
Yes I have a problem with puppy owners shirking their responsibility, and giving up their dog at the first sign of work, but trust me, My real problem is with irresponsible breeders. Quite frankly, I do not know how some breeders sleep at night.
I will stay with my original statement
I will Rescue! I will LOVE goldens, and I will visit this sight
Good Luck
Ron


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Monomer, I whole heartedly agree with your premise. I can't tell you how many times I feel like strangling owners for the way they mistreat their animals simply out of ignorance. And let's not even discuss the ones who just don't care. 

In an ideal world, everyone would have to prove they knew how to care for animals before they were entrusted with their lives. Rescue groups try their best to ensure that happens. And so do most responsible breeders. 

And its true with rescue you get what you get: medical and emotional issues, the gamut. But the discarded ones never chose to be put into the misery in which they often must live. And many go on to become wonderful companions. Some have even become valuable service animals. 

There are no guarantees in life. Even well bred dogs die young, and not-so-well bred dogs die old. There's a phrase I love that says "God doesn't make junk." I'm definitely not against anyone buying a puppy. We did ourselves last January. 

My strong urges toward rescue come from helping those who cannot help themselves. I wish I could save them all. I've got to be learn to be content to do what I can. 

It's about making a difference in their lives, no matter if you have them 10 years, 10 months, or 10 days. Sure it hurts like the devil when you lose something you have come to love. But love always comes with those strings attached. 

Rescue isn't for everyone, and that's not a bad thing. Knowing what you can, and cannot cope with, means that you're mature enough to make the right decisions for your life. I admire that!!!! Some people never gain that might insight into themselves.


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

Monomer, you have some valid points. However I can't understand how rescuing a Golden would increase the amount of Goldens abandoned.ALL rescued Goldens are spayed or neutered before they are adopted.This is also true of most shelters.
What needs to be done is,If you buy a dog for a companion,it should be spayed or neutered right away.This would help a lot. There are too many people who pay way too much for an dog because they think the offspring will bring them money or status. These smug SOBs think only of them self's and their status symbols.
As for bringing in rescued Goldens,yes they die on you,that's life.But we give a Golden who has been neglected,abused and left unloved a chance to have some happiness in it's last days.We don't care if it's one day or 12 years.Your brother-in-law has had a bad run with health problems,but still he persists because he understands that these innocent animals look to us for protection and love. I'm sure he and his family get more back from their Goldens than you could understand.We've had Goldens that except for yearly visits,never needed the Vet until the final day.
I say this not to knock you or belittle you.Each of us must follow our own path through life and remain true to ourselves.
I think you sell yourself short,for man has a great ability to suffer much pain and heartbreak.
Lee and I wish we could have more Goldens,but being disabled,four is the maximum for us.We try to help others all we can,when we are able to.
Where would all the abandoned Goldens go If we all gave up rescue and worked on educating first time dog owners? I'll bet that you didn't go through any kind of interview,background check,(moral and financial )home inspection or signed a contract on how you would treat your Golden.
But this is what happens if you adopt from a rescue group.They make sure that you are qualified and educated about Goldens before you get one.They also match each Golden with the proper family,you can't do that with a puppy.Also they make checks on the Golden all through it's life,if it is not being cared for,it's taken away.

Your personal fantasy is just that.You know people would not be bothered to attend classes,they would just buy the dog on the black market.So what you propose would in fact cause more problems than it would cure.

Lee and I will continue to bring Rescues into our lives as long as we can.What they give you back is worth helping them cross over.When we pass,there will be one heck of a large pack waiting for us.
Shane


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Hey...can I get a word in here? This is filling fast. And now I have a bunch of stuff to say but dang, I've got a house to clean.

First thing, my "arrogance" post was snotty and....well ...arrogant. There was a nicer way to express that. Yeah...I do re-read my posts. 



shaneamber said:


> Luckys Mom,Perhaps you could copy and paste the exact words that say ALL familys MUST adopt a rescue.


And Shaneamber..the reason I assumed that rescue might be the only option for some...is that I put out a circumstance that I viewed as valid and a real concern for some parents who might be _uncomfortable _with health and temperment unknowns and ..._want to put their kids first_. But a parents concern for the well-being of their kids didn't fare well against the plight of the "Christmas Puppies." 

Now I'm at a loss as too when a responsible breeder would be an option. So...if rescue isn't the only answer and isn't for everybody, perhaps you can tell me a circumstance where a reputable breeder would be a respectable option?


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Wow so many responses in such a short time...

I don't have the time right now to answer all in the detail I would like... (I still gotta take Sidney out and we have, get this, a 'cocktail party' to attend this evening... I have NEVER, ever gone to a 'cocktail party' before... shheeezzzz...

Anyway... ron, please re-read my posting carefully and without bias and you will see I've actually separated 'breeders/health issues' from 'puppy buyers/rescue'. I made the distinction as clear as I could for a purpose, so please re-read and see if you 'get' what it is I'm really saying. Remember this is my viewpoint and I do recognize that it is unpopular among certain groups of people that's why I've never revealed it before on this forum.

Brandy's Mom, different people are made of different 'stuff'... what 'works' for some does not work for all. From your posting, I believe, you understand the concept. True anything in life can happen, but we try to eat right, exercise, and take care of our bodies even though we could get hit by a bus tomorrow because living life smartly entails trying to shift the odds into your favor. If you buy from a breeder who keeps meticulous records, shows/proves the breeding stock, has much breeding experience, invites you to call and see other dogs from previous matings, follows-up on all past puppies looking for issues, etc... then you greatly lessen the possibilities of a surprise heart ache. However if you are the type who pays no attention and a puppy is a puppy is a puppy... then an adult dog from rescue would be a much safer bet. No nothing in this life is a guarantee except death.

Shane... read the response to Brandy's Mom... and my brother-in-law's dogs are all mutts and he's facing the tough decision of medicine and care for his Parkinson's or medicine and special food/care for his dogs... and right now the dogs are winning out. It's a shame because he's in Germany and I'm here, he doesn't speak much English nor I much German so I can do little to help him deal with the situation. His wife's income and a small pension is all they have. I hate talking about such sad things but for right now I guess his pets are his medicine.

About the fantasy... Though I've not completely thought of every single detail (who ever does) I believe my plan is workable... but there is a little more to it than I was going to put into that posting. Let's watch how SanFransico's new dog laws (only for Pitt Bulls) work out in the new year (when it will become effective).

And later if you want I'll add numbers but we are KILLING (I think 'euthanize' is a word used to make everyone feel a little better about we are doing to pets) pets at greater levels that in times past (in the days before rescue)... so who are we saving. Could it be that 'rescue' sounds so nice that people have an easier time 'surrendering' their pets because, "They will be going to a real good home." which this fate, unfortunately for the vast majority of animals, is a lie. Just look at the numbers, they don't lie. A friend of a friend (actually I know the guy but don't associate with him) has 'tried' a puppy twice this year. The first one lasted 3 days and the second one not quite 2 weeks... in each case the dogs went to rescue and he felt so good about it... ahhh, a free conscious. What do you want to bet he tries it yet a third time? Funny, its always the dog's fault.

Okay all, I really gotta go now...


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

Luckys mom,I never said that buying from a reputable breeder is wrong.What I said is that too many PEOPLE buy a Golden just as a status symbol.You know,the old,my dog(substitute,house,car,pool,girlfriend) is more expensive than your's routine.
You said


> And Shaneamber..the reason I assumed that rescue might be the only option for some...is that I put out a circumstance that I viewed as valid and a real concern for some parents who might be uncomfortable with health and temperament unknowns and ...want to put their kids first. But a parents concern for the well-being of their kids didn't fare well against the plight of the "Christmas Puppies."
> Now I'm at a loss as too when a responsible breeder would be an option. So...if rescue isn't the only answer and isn't for everybody, perhaps you can tell me a circumstance where a reputable breeder would be a respectable option?


 A reputable breeder is the ONLY option for getting a Golden puppy if you want to buy a new puppy. If you show,of course you want a puppy with a long line of champions in it's history. If you don't mind a puppy or dog that has been already "used",you could go to a Rescue group.From a rescue group you will get a Golden that has been checked for health and temperament unknowns before you even see it.With any problems or quirks known,you can then decide the type of Golden you want.Plus,if after you have the Golden for a while and decide that you can't get along with it,you can trade it in for a different Golden.
At the very least,a Rescue Golden has been completely vetted( no shots for at least a year) and has some,if not all,the training needed to fit into your family.
A breeder puppy is a blank sheet.You can only guess what it will grow into.You get no idea what it's temperament will be. Every puppy is different,what it's parents are is only one possibility out of thousands what that pup will be.
When you get a rescue Golden,you KNOW what you are getting.You might have to battle cancer or something later on,but you take that chance with a breeder puppy too.
The best experience in the world is when a senior Golden,with a broken heart,realizes that it's found it's forever home and it's heart begins to heal.
Adopt just one senior rescue and you will understand.
Have you read the Rainbow Bridge? When the moment comes that you must let them go,you must believe that the Bridge is there and you will be together again.As you mourn,you must remember the Great times and celebrate it's life and love that you shared.
Shane


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## ron (Sep 16, 2005)

I think this thread has gotten way out of context. I am still getting sarcastic remarks about my comment on rescuing a Christmas puppy. How can anyone say rescuing is bad??? It is not for everyone. I will make two remarks, then I am out of this thread
1. Shaneamber is right. I [me personally] have found nothing as rewarding as rescuing a Senior Golden. It has been amazing
2. Monomer, I also agree that "rescue" has made it easier for people to give their puppy to a "rescue" and seemingly be guilt free
I will continue to rescue, I will always love Golden's, And I will visit this sight
Ciao
Ron


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Ron:
Sorry about using the "Christmas puppies"...really didn't mean to pick on you. I was trying to make a point (the all important point) and sometimes I don't think of the consequences.

I have total respect for what you do and for rescue. And the info on this thread has been very very good....lots of wonderful info that a new possible puppy owner should know. I've learned much myself.

I'm off myself but will re-read as there was so much good info.


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## Allie and the Gang =) (Apr 21, 2005)

I tend to agree with what MONOMER said. I, being a breeder who is contiunally trying to improve my lines/and the health/genetics therein, must say that i can see both sides. If someone contacts me who doesnt have the WILL to go through the puppy stage, i will WHOLEHEARTEDLY tell them to rescue!........BUT, i will try to help them find a good match in the process, and tell them what to look for and what to NOT GET....So many of you are RIGHT, not knowing the background of a rescue can be GOOD AND BAD! We have a 4 year old rescue named Allie who is the apple of my eye! I adore her, she is the stability of my house! 

Back to the original poster, PLEASE do tons of research before deciding to breed, as well as do the proper certs! Do you have a copy of your dogs pedigree on K9data???


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

This is a response to Monomer,then I am finished with this thread.


> If you buy from a breeder who keeps meticulous records, shows/proves the breeding stock, has much breeding experience, invites you to call and see other dogs from previous mating's, follows-up on all past puppies looking for issues, etc... then you greatly lessen the possibilities of a surprise heart ache


I agree that this is the way to go,but you still have the unknown. I've seen and helped with a few whelpings and watched some of the Golden pups grow.You can't tell completely in ALL puppies what they will grow up to become.


> However if you are the type who pays no attention and a puppy is a puppy is a puppy... then an adult dog from rescue would be a much safer bet. No nothing in this life is a guarantee except death.


With a rescue Golden,you have a much better idea of what you will get,they have been to the Vet and lived with a foster family before they are released for adoption.


> ... and my brother-in-law's dogs are all mutts and he's facing the tough decision of medicine and care for his Parkinson's or medicine and special food/care for his dogs... and right now the dogs are winning out. It's a shame because he's in Germany and I'm here, he doesn't speak much English nor I much German so I can do little to help him deal with the situation. His wife's income and a small pension is all they have. I hate talking about such sad things but for right now I guess his pets are his medicine.


I'm sure that your brother-in-law is very nice,but his dogs came from a shelter I'll bet.We're talking about organized rescue of mostly pure breed Goldens.
Two very different things.
If your sister and brother -in -law are having such a bad time of it,why don't you sent them a small check for Christmas.They might have a use for it.


> About the fantasy... Though I've not completely thought of every single detail (who ever does) I believe my plan is workable... but there is a little more to it than I was going to put into that posting.


That's why it's called a fantasy,the details would stop it short.


> And later if you want I'll add numbers but we are KILLING (I think 'euthanize' is a word used to make everyone feel a little better about we are doing to pets) pets at greater levels that in times past (in the days before rescue)... so who are we saving. Could it be that 'rescue' sounds so nice that people have an easier time 'surrendering' their pets because, "They will be going to a real good home." which this fate, unfortunately for the vast majority of animals, is a lie. Just look at the numbers, they don't lie


Most dogs are set free or turned into a local government run shelter. A KILL shelter.
A lot of the rescue Goldens come from KILL shelters. Without rescue groups they would be gone.Is that your goal?


> A friend of a friend (actually I know the guy but don't associate with him) has 'tried' a puppy twice this year. The first one lasted 3 days and the second one not quite 2 weeks... in each case the dogs went to rescue and he felt so good about it... ahhh, a free conscious. What do you want to bet he tries it yet a third time? Funny, its always the dog's fault


If he's not a "friend" why don't you say something? Where does he get the pups.Not from a reputable breeder I'm sure.This is something YOU could stop,but you choose to stand by and let it happen.So much for the fantasy.
I get the feeling that what ever is said,you will find a way to use 1 or 2 isolated incidents to rail against it.
As for me I've said my peace and I'm done with this.
There is NO fast answer to the abandoned dog issue.Right now,the rescue groups,whatever the breed,are doing a wonderful job.
Shane


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

shaneamber said:


> This is a response to Monomer,then I am finished with this thread.


Now Shane, you make it sound like I'm chasing you away... I know that's not what you meant... is it?


shaneamber said:


> You can't tell completely in ALL puppies what they will grow up to become.


Yes, that's because of recessive genes but even these can be 'bred out' over time, if the breeder is very conscientious and knowledgeable about her dogs.


shaneamber said:


> With a rescue Golden,you have a much better idea of what you will get,they have been to the Vet and lived with a foster family before they are released for adoption.


Agreed, you know physically exactly what you've got now... what will develop is much more of a gamble. If purchasing a puppy from a properly run breeding program you should be able to have a very predictable pup both physically and more importantly, temperament wise.


shaneamber said:


> I'm sure that your brother-in-law is very nice,but his dogs came from a shelter I'll bet.


Yes, he's the kind of guy who will choose to take what no one else will.


shaneamber said:


> If your sister and brother -in -law are having such a bad time of it,why don't you sent them a small check for Christmas.


It sounds simple on the surface but...
there are two kinds of people you don't give money to... those that take it and blow it and get into a worse situation, in which case you are being an enabler (I have a niece who falls into this category... we'll save that story for another time) and then there are those who regard the monetary gift as an insult... its as if the giver is making the receiver out to be someone less than themselves, its a pride thing... unfortunately my brother-in-law is this sort. We gotta be real careful on how we approach this but it is a real problem... I'd love it if they could just come over here and live with us but that ain't going to happen so... we do what we can.


shaneamber said:


> That's why it's called a fantasy,the details would stop it short.


Actually I do have the details worked out in my mind, I just didn't feel the need to spell it all out. Suffice it to say that it involves active policing and hefty fines for violators.


shaneamber said:


> Most dogs are set free or turned into a local government run shelter. A KILL shelter.
> A lot of the rescue Goldens come from KILL shelters. Without rescue groups they would be gone.Is that your goal?


I believe rescue is a zero sum game. Meaning that there are only a finite (given) number of responsible owners who can handle X-number of pets. Rescue doesn't create anymore 'room'... it's just a means of re-distribution of the animals that will be saved. It just means that one dog finding a good home from a rescue organization is one less dog obtained from another source (shelter, pet store, breeder, whatever). On the surface it sounds great but if that leads to more irresponsible people getting a new puppy more often because its not such a 'bad' thing if it all doesn't work out then is rescue really helping the situation? I don't know, so to get an idea of the Big Picture we must often resort to statistics. If rescue were working then theoretically you'd expect to see some decrease in the death rate at animal shelters... but this is not the case. Maybe its just that more people are bringing in their unwanted pets to shelters these days? I don't really know. All I said was a case could be made that rescue actually has increased the unwanted pet population.


shaneamber said:


> If he's not a "friend" why don't you say something?


That's exactly the point... people who are not your friend do not take your advice. I only know him because I had him as a student umpteen years ago. (Keep in mind this is the *short* version) ...More than a year ago a colleague of mine was wanting to get a puppy but because of his situation I talked him out of it and into looking at rescues instead. He found the perfect dog through a suggestion of mine. At first they were going to take the dog back because of perceived problems but I help him understand how he could rehabilitate the dog and today his family is so happy with their dog they can't thank me enough for having helped them stick it out. (I'll be honest, this dog is UGLY but has one of the nicest temperaments I've ever seen... I mean this dog is really a gem... a one in a million find for this family.) Well, that former student keeps in contact with my friend and each time he got a puppy, he'd phoned to tell him about it. My friend wants to do what I did for him so he tried to give advice but it just didn't work out the same. Bottomline is I know this guy and his wife (another former student) and they shouldn't ever consider owning a puppy or dog of any kind... I've in effect told him that through my friend but it has no effect.


shaneamber said:


> Where does he get the pups.Not from a reputable breeder I'm sure.


Well yes, the last one he got for free from a breeder because she didn't want this dog in her breeding program and no one would buy him. I don't remember all the details of where he obtained the first one from but remember this guy's not telegraphing his desires to get a pup... he gets the puppy first and then calls my friend, all excited like, to tell him about it.


shaneamber said:


> This is something YOU could stop,but you choose to stand by and let it happen.So much for the fantasy.


Nope... see the story above.


shaneamber said:


> I get the feeling that what ever is said,you will find a way to use 1 or 2 isolated incidents to rail against it.


No, in fact I don't believe anecdotes constitute proof of anything other than to disprove an absolute negative... (this would be an example of such... if I'd said, 'no rescue animal was ever saved from being killed', all you'd have to do is show just one case where a rescue animal was spared a inevitable death and that would constitute proof that my assertion was incorrect). So because anecdotes can do no more than disprove an absolute negative, I resorted to the number of pets killed at shelters taken from the larger (statistical) population to pose the possibility that rescue may not be all that it appears. This is a hard pill to swallow and that's why I've never voiced this possibility before... and by the way, I'm not the original one who thought up this angle on rescue, there are others that are thoroughly convinced that rescue is not only ineffective but actually is the cause of more animals being killed than ever before. I won't go no where near as far as to say that because I really don't know all the facts (I don't believe anybody does yet) but I will say these people have created a case for that assertion and I'm not so closed-minded as to think it couldn't possibly be true.


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## Roxy04 (Dec 15, 2005)

I am glad that this thread got a bit of passion involved but i think everyone got very very carried away and lost what it was all about. But i do thankyou to all out there how tried to help in what ever way that they thought would be best and had a little faith in me.

I will keep everyone updated in how the breeding process goes but for now i think its best to leave this thread well alone ha ha ha 

Alison


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## timberwolfe (Apr 15, 2005)

Hey Roxy, don't go. This happens in pretty much all boards when subjects like breeding is brought up. I always tell people that if you don't have a thick skin, don't get involved in online debates. But you will find all the other threads quite normal. Give us a second chance.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Don't worry timberwolfe, Roxy04 is not going anywhere... she's got some pretty thick skin and a good healthy attitude... didn't you see the 'pummeling' she took earlier in her thread. I think what she meant was she would take a 'vacation' from posting to this thread. She actually got very little direct response to her original questions. I made an attempt very early on to answer one of her questions but then later the whole thread seemed to take a bizarre turn over to dog rescuing. Then the conversation got lively and eventually I had to put in my two cents (well, maybe a dime's worth) and then suddenly the two individuals who were 'working' the 'rescue angle' the hardest, wanted to say just 'one thing' more and never post again to the thread. Unusual behavior but not unheard of.

Roxy04, I will try to answer your other question about becoming a breeder but it will have to be in another posting because its liable to be lengthy... and I do have to take the dog out still, so be patient... and I promise I won't try to 'pummel' you or take off on a side tangent...


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## timberwolfe (Apr 15, 2005)

You're right. I thought she was leaving the board, but she did mention thread. I thought she was tougher than that. LOL


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## ron (Sep 16, 2005)

Monomer
I posted several notes to you directly. You do not answer. I conceded many points were made by all. I left the thread because of the sarcastic remarks, such as yours saying "the two individuals" who were working the "rescue angle". I have very thick skin, but sarcasm is the weakest form of wit. There was no pummeling, and there were no tangents. Just conversation on beliefs. Everyone answered her questions! Do not breed until you read. Got it!!!
Good luck
I will push rescue, I love golden's, and I will continue to visit
P.S. There is NOTHING bizarre about rescuing!!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

There was no sarcasms in my remarks. If you perceived it as such then there's nothing I can do about that. It was merely a statement of the events as I saw them. I can go back and re-read but I swear their were mainly two individuals (you and Shane), you were both pushing rescue (I'm sorry but I really can't think of another word to use, I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but if you view it as such there's nothing I can do about it). Lucky's mom felt offended (as would I guess maybe some other less vocal members were as well, there are many who read but never post for fear of being politically incorrect... this I know from other forums and Private Messaging)... in fact that's what actually brought me out into this thread was what I began to perceive as the 'hard sell' through use of guilt, and talk about Christmas puppies, etc. How did this thread go from 'how do I become a breeder' to getting a rescue dog instead... I'd call that "off tangent"... I could be wrong, maybe it was a natural progression of the thread. No pummeling? do I really have to go back and bring out the quotes? and I believe the more famous saying is... Puns are the weakest form of wit/humor.
You're right rescue is not bizarre, but how it ended up in this thread I think was strange... but then again I now understand you thought it a natural progression so from your point of view I can see where my remark may have provoked your statement... however it looks as if you're taking it out of context were intentional but I'm sure that was not your intention.

BTW, 'thick skinned' to me means not reading-in the worst into a posting or assuming more than is actually literally written or automatically assuming someone is being disingenuous in their remarks.

EDIT: It was my intention in the breeder/rescuer posting to separate the discussion back to either breeding or rescuing rather than trying to leave it inseparable which I believed was exactly where the confusion lay. However, this point was never recognized by you or Shane and so the discussion was pointed directly at rescue... and not breeding as I'd thought it would go to... my mis-calculation! Shane is a big boy and we will always butt heads on some issues... we've done it before and I see no reason why that would not be the case occassionally in the future... its no big deal from my end of things, I'm a veteran of 'hot-topic issues' and have been on both ends... I won't speak for Shane but somehow I just don't think he's the kind of guy to harbor resentments... at least not for long anyway. We all have our opinions. Ron, welcome to the forum!!!! No scarcasism is intended in that statement, I promise... just take it for what it is, please.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Stick around Ron. I don't like it when my own words are used against me either, and I always regret doing that in a flippant way. Which is why I try to stay away from political discussion. Can't promise I won't offend anyone, but I can always try to communicate better.


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## ron (Sep 16, 2005)

Anytime someone brings up breeding *MORE* dogs, I think a very NATURAL progression would be to bring up rescue. I feel the more people that talk about it [agree or disagree] the more we could save dogs that need to be saved.
Monomer, although you seem well spoken, you also seem to be O.K. with most anything. It is OK to breed more dogs, it is Ok to sell animals on e-bay. Rescuing dogs leads to more needy dogs. It is NOT ok with most dog lovers. You are right, there are a lot of people that won't speak up in these forums for fear that there point won't be popular.
Yes please quote where there was "pummeling" , along with the definition of "pummeling". How can suggesting rescuing to a curious possible breeder be off tangent? I now know that there may be a need for responsible breeders in Australia, and I have already conceded that on many occasions. The problem with these forums is that some people only answer part of the posts! 
No Monomer the saying goes:"SARCASM is the weakest form of wit" Sarcasm is usually hurtful
I do not harbor resentments, In fact, as I've said before, I ENJOY spirited conversations, and am quite good at it. I dislike my words being spun for someones benefit, and I despise sarcasm. I do not feel like my words were used against me. I felt like they were being spun.
Good luck with ebay, and classified ads, and breeding
I will continue to push rescue, continue to LOVE dogs, and continue to visit this sight.
Ron
I do not feel that I soley have the power to push a discussion in ANY direction, but thanks for the thought


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

By 'Pummel' I mean discouraging as opposed to supporting...
Okay, so since you requested it, I'll now go back and do the leg work... and I can just hear people now 'cringing' at their own words and saying that's not what I meant, let me explain... sorry folks, I really didn't want to do this but ron asked for a replay...
*******************************************
I dont know exactly what your motivation is, but unfortunately it sounds way too much like $$$$. Your goal in breeding should be to improve the breed. I understand that there are literally thousands of litters out there indiscriminently breeding not just goldens, but all breeds. 
Please wait on breeding her yet and please before you decide,spend some time at some of the Golden Rescue sites.There are so many Goldens without homes.
**********************************************
I know I haven't been here for a long time, and this is the first thread that I read when I got here... but I am going to come down a lot harder than Greg did.......... Absolutely positively do not breed your dog.
**********************************************
If you have to ask what
a tie is, ... and I don't mean to insult you or anyone who doesn't know...
but you have NO business even thinking of breeding your female. The "tie" 
is one of the basic things of breeding and is ONLY the very beginning of some
very hard work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If I were you I would schedule an appointment, have my puppy (yes...15 months old is a puppy!!) spayed....she can live a long healthy happy life as your GREAT family pet.
********************************************
Hey TW!!! I knew I was being harsh... playing a little bit of "devil's advocate"...
*********************************************
I agree with Martha in Iowa. There are currently about 125000 dogs up for adoption, just on Petfinder.com. 2500 Goldens. Let's continue rescuing, until we get it under control. I understand how much we all love those beautiful little puppies, but I have found NOTHING more rewarding than making a Golden's last years their best years.
*********************************************
End of Quotes...
This is about the time the thread begins to take that turn towards the hidden message of getting a rescue instead of breeding... and then the now infamous Christmas puppy statement was first uttered...

Yes, I am okay with a lot of things... its called tolerance. I am willing to listen and explore new and different possibilities that I may have never thought of before... I actually believe this is a strength of mine rather than a flaw in character.

Well, puns are thought to be easier to create for most people which is why probably the most common reaction to a pun is usually a groan... however sarcasms is much more difficult, at least it is for me, because it requires just the right touch to make it reveal itself without appearing down right nasty. I'm gonna get hate mail for this but here goes... I think the British are the absolute best at using this type of humor and wit, I've always envied their linguistic abilities and to be able to get just the right tone. No, I'm thinking you gotta to be kinda clever to do sarcasm well.

Words will always be mis-understood from time to time, its really how one deals with that situation that says what's in someone's heart. (Again... NO SARCASMS here, remember its an art form I don't know how to do very well.)


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## ron (Sep 16, 2005)

I would also consider my self tolerant. I am also very open-minded. You fail to EVER mention the amount of posts where I conceded a point. I would HARDLY consider the "quotes" you picked pummelling". It sounded more like a bunch of intelligent people sharing their experiences on the difficulty of being a dog breeder.
Back to tolerance. Are you tolerant of crime? Drugs? murder? abandoning dogs? Leaving dogs in a "kill shelter? Tolerance is sometimes used as a mask.
BTW you sound kinda clever! Know what I mean
I will continue to rescue, love dogs, and visit this site
Also, discouraging instead of supporting is NOT the definition of pummelling!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Okay, ron you've about beat me into submission here... this is now getting so far off tangent as if its a battle that you must now win at all costs... so this has now just boiling down to a game of symantics... you ask what I meant by pummel, I tell you, you scoff... you ask for quotes which I supply, again you scoff... you question my capacity for tolerance, then claim you also are a tolerant fellow but my tolerance is not the right brand... what's left to discuss, certainly NOT about anyone becoming a breeder... remember?

Euthanasia of the terminally ill is a crime in this country... yes, I will tolerate it... Some people take marijuana to ease their pain of terminal cancer and it is classified as a drug... yes, I will tolerate it... Sometimes one will kill in self-defense and there are such things, I believe, as true mercy killings (see the first of my tolerances)... yes, I will tolerate it... sometimes a dog can be so far gone it becomes a danger to all humans and animals that come into contact with it and cannot be rehabilitated and so the best solution is death... yes, I will tolerate it. You speak as if the answers are all so simple, cut and dry, black and white, rescue=good and Christmas puppies=bad... I only wish the world was so simple from my point of view.

This whole thread has now taken on an air of a contest of wills as if someone's reputation is on the line. If it means that much to you... ron, you were so absolutely right in introducing the topic of rescue and even people wanting to be a breeder should consider this possibility and you are so sensitive to all living creatures and you have exercised the utmost in tolerance and open-mindedness ever witnessed... and you also were so delicate in your introduction to the problem with Christmas puppies... So before Joe, kicks us both off I will be the gentleman and let you have the last word. Then I will have to start another thread to respond to poor Roxy04, remember the one who started this thread? wanted to be a breeder? That is if she hasn't been convinced to get a rescue... don't worry, I'm sure she will wait 'til after Christmas... see, I told you I was no good at this sarcasm thing, I get too heavy handed but I hope you do get my point. And so I will move on to other more sane pursuits because I don't really enjoy being nasty... controversial, yes... nasty, no.


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## ron (Sep 16, 2005)

I knew you were a clever one!
I also knew that you did not hear a word I said! It's all semantics
So I will be the gentleman, and concede like I have in many of my posts you did not hear, or read
Good Luck
Ron
P.S. I agree with all the examples of tolerance you gave regarding drugs, crime, etc


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I feel that in a way I opened this can of worms and that was not my intent.
I am on my 4th golden and none of them have been rescue dogs. I believe I have good reason for that. I look for the best field stock I can find and then train them starting as a very small pup. 
My intent was to make this person think about exactly what the purpose was in breeding. What strengths do you want to pass on to puppies. Does your female posess these strengths. Be objective in evaluating your female and look at her weaknesses and find a male that improves that weakness. 
Price is the very last question I ask a breeder. I know the qualities I want in my dogs. I don't always get all of them to the extent I want, but I look for a breeder that is trying to produce that in some preplanned manner. 
I just meant you should be attempting to produce somthing besides a bunch of cute little gold puppies. And you always have to start with health and temprament.


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

I have to post on this thread one more time because of monomers invitation .
Monomer I am disappointed in you,this forum is for the friendly exchange of info between fellow Golden lovers.
You have decided that it is your personal mission to be contrary and stir things up.You use this forum for your own amusement and give advice that is based on your opinion (or others) as FACT .I have spent time checking out what you feel is the correct way to do just about everything. A lot of what you purport to be fact,is actually,just your opinion.Life is not learned completely from a book,nor is all of life a negative,you should try to look at the positive at all times.
You give advice as if you are an expert in all things.But nobody can be an expert at all things,sometimes you have to admit that someone else knows more than you.
If you were the expert in all the fields you give advice about,you sure as hell wouldn't be a teacher.
I for one am tired of the constant bickering that you cause.You ague at an eighth grade level and I stopped doing that in the eighth grade.
You are obviously an intelligent person,so why do you need to spread this belligerent claptrap.It is beneath you,you don't need it.
You can twist my words anyway you want,but it comes down to this,I won't be bullied by you or anyone,I've tried to be a gentleman and get away from this post,but your private message left me no choice but to respond one last time.
You are beating a dead horse, so grow up and stop creating controversy where there is none.
I speak just for myself,not as part of the forum staff.My response is NOT from the staff of this forum,but from my heart.
I thought you were a better person than this and I will no longer rise to your bait.
Shane


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I'm sorry you feel that way Shane. I offer advice and opinions and stories and encouragement and I'd like to think some enlightenment. Life is a mixture of good and bad and I always have tried to make sure I prefaced my advice and opinions with reminders that its just my opinion... check and you will see I've been pretty careful to do this... look for: I think, I believe, its my suggestion, the advice I would give, in my opinion, etc... 

I merely PM'ed you to let you know I'd written something about you so you wouldn't think I was talking behind your back, since in your last posting you said you were finished with the thread... and I said exactly that in that PM... I felt it was a curteousy, evidently I was very wrong.

Its too bad you seem to see every thing as either right or wrong, either win or lose, ...what happened to: every one has a right to their opinion? the concept of free speech and exchange of ideas? we can agree to disagree? it wasn't long ago when you championed such ideas, you know the posting I'm referring to... how times have changed.

It saddens me to think, I could have caused you to change your opinions on such high minded values... for that I am sorry indeed. But I have my own life values built over a lifetime of experiences and try to remain informed on as many topics as my interests allow... I cannot apologize for that. I don't believe I've ever been crude, profane, or engaged in personal attacks with the exception of the most recent posting to ron... and as I stated there, I don't like being nasty and will only go there when pushed, which is exactly what happened.

We will have to co-exist on this forum so I will offer you wide berth and latitude provided you reciprocate likewise. I am sorry it has to be this way, I truely am.


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