# No vaccines ALL natural approach??



## Cari (Sep 19, 2012)

I ran across this website of a "breeder" that took an all natural approach to raising and breeding Golden Retrievers. She only ever does the rabies vaccine with her dogs and never anything else. Read what she has to say about it under the Limited Vaccines tab...I have not really heard of this but I don't think its good. Seems like a way to allow sickness and disease to run wild.

Limited Vaccinations | www.golden-Pawprints.com | Ellen Welk


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## Cari (Sep 19, 2012)

Any one have opinions on this?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I think the no-vaccine approach is just wrong, and dangerous to the unvaccinated dog as well as puppies, etc that it may be exposed to. She is counting on herd immunity to keep the unvaccinated dogs safe, and that does not always work-witness the current parvo epidemic in parts of Texas.

Growing up, I had an aunt who was too busy and too thoughtless to get my young cousin vaccinated. He died of whooping cough, wholly preventable had he been vaccinated.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I agree with Tahnee ... while I am a limited vaccine person and try to breed as naturally as possible I do not agree with this approach at all. I know several breeders in the Northeast who are taking this approach of no vaccines. I am very uncomfortable with this extreme approach these diseases come from somewhere and only through vaccination have we gotten them under control. This is not to say that we should be overvaccinating but there is a balance.... 

I personally don't want my dogs around these unvaccinated dogs


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## goldentemperment (May 16, 2012)

I can only imagine how terrible the dying experience must be for a dog dying from heartworms. 

Like any cult, I think there's a nugget of truth in what they're saying (some sort of appeal to nature is a good thing), but when an outbreak occurs, the least prepared are the first to die, and I think the "all natural" approach is no exception.


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## Cari (Sep 19, 2012)

Thank y'all for you replies. I agree, it sounds no bueno! And I wouldn't want my dog around unvaccinated dogs either. When I saw the part about not vaccinating I was like, "Okay, that's different but I'll go with it" and then I saw the part about no heartworm prevention and was like NO NO NO! I had a dog die from heartworms a long time ago and it was awful! And completely preventable. And if a dog is not on heart worm prevention he is VERY likely to get it!


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## Cari (Sep 19, 2012)

Shalva said:


> I agree with Tahnee ... while I am a limited vaccine person and try to breed as naturally as possible I do not agree with this approach at all. I know several breeders in the Northeast who are taking this approach of no vaccines. I am very uncomfortable with this extreme approach these diseases come from somewhere and only through vaccination have we gotten them under control. This is not to say that we should be overvaccinating but there is a balance....
> 
> I personally don't want my dogs around these unvaccinated dogs


What is your approach to limited vaccines? I haven't heard of it. What vaccines would you be limiting? Thanks for your reply. I am curious about your response to this question...


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Cari said:


> What is your approach to limited vaccines? I haven't heard of it. What vaccines would you be limiting? Thanks for your reply. I am curious about your response to this question...


Dr. Dodds has a limited vaccination protocol. That was the protocol I followed for Molly.


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## Cari (Sep 19, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Dr. Dodds has a limited vaccination protocol. That was the protocol I followed for Molly.


Hmm I didn't see much difference in that and what I'm used to. 2-3 puppy shots, rabies. Then at one year another booster and a 3 year rabies. Sorry, I may not see it but what's the difference?


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## Cari (Sep 19, 2012)

Okay, i see. He's not recommending vaccines that the diseases aren't prominent.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I do puppy vaccines 
distemper and parvo ONLY at 9 and 16 weeks 
I do rabies no earlier than 6 mos .... 
I do one year booster for distemper parvo only and after that I only do titers which determines what vaccinating I do after that. 

s


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

What a foolish attitude.....

I looked at a couple of the links on this site.... one of them suggests that here in the uplands of South Carolina I should only give my dog heartworm preventative in the months of June through December. I can assure you that mosquitoes are an issue here as soon as we have our last freeze around the middle of April. I would never leave my dog uprotected for 6 or 8 weeks.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Sorry, double post


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Oh yeah I do use limited heartworm preventative. I use cattle and swine ivermectin every other month during mosquito season


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Shalva said:


> Oh yeah I do use limited heartworm preventative. I use cattle and swine ivermectin every other month during mosquito season



Glad Cari posted this thread. This morning driving to work I was wondering about the heartworm pills. I just picked up six month supply for Rose this morning at the vet. How long to do you do it?

I was contemplating one to two years for Rose. Any thoughts?

I am glad we stopped Jack's heartworm meds after he got the Lupus (no contraindication but he was on too many meds: on and off prednisone, tagament, pain meds, immune booster supplements etc from 5 years old to almost 16 years old). The vet was pressuring me to do the vaccine but I simply refused. Turned out the vaccine caused problems in so many dogs it was taken off the market. Now they are back to the monthly tablets.


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## Nyahsmommy (Jul 23, 2011)

I actually don't believe in vaccinations. Over vaccinations cause cancer. I unfortunately gave Nyah a bunch of useless add on shots that I really regret, from now on only rabies and that's only because its law. I don't vaccinate any of my cats and no rabies (they arnt license as cats don't need to be where I live and are indoor only )


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## Nyahsmommy (Jul 23, 2011)

I don't believe in vaccinations either, as over vaccination leads to cancer. None of my cats are vaccinated nor have rabies shot. Nyah isn't going to get any shots other than rabies starting next year... I was scammed into giving Nyah useless add on vaccinations that do more harm than good. Every dog I know of that lived 15+ years was not vaccinated and died of old age. I don't believe in pumping poison into myself or my animals.


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## Nyahsmommy (Jul 23, 2011)

Arg sorry for the double post. It said the first didn't post. 


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## AlanK (Jun 28, 2008)

I trust my vet and my buddy gets the recommended vaccines and preventative stuff. He had... and I treated him for heart worms when he first came to live with me. I think that treatment out-ways any risk of preventative medicines. It was a pitiful 5 weeks after his treatments. Just this old guy's opinion.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I do the puppy boosters, with the last one at 16 weeks, rabies at 6 months and then every 3 years. Adults are boostered at most every 3 years. I'm on the fence about the Lyme vaccination. I do lepto because it is a serious issue where I live.

I give Ivermectin every 35-40 days April-November.

I feel it is much too risky not to do any vaccinations, although I think titering is an alternative that many are comfortable with.

Many of my longest-lived dogs were given annual vaccinations, and lived anywhere from 13-17 years. I definitely do not recommend that anymore though.


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## painted golden (Aug 17, 2009)

I am very concerned about over vaccinating for rabies. I have read that the vaccination site is where they often find cancer. Anyone else heard this?



Vaccine-associated Sarcoma in Dogs

Most types of injectable vaccine and non-vaccine products have rarely been associated with sarcoma development in dogs, but some dogs may develop a site specific sarcoma following rabies vaccination. In fact, reports of a sarcoma (a cancerous mass arising from bone, cartilage, fat or muscle) developing at the site of vaccine injection sites in some animals have led to the suspicion of a link between the vaccine and a disposition in some animals to this type of reaction.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

I don't understand about not giving the heartworm preventative all year around, truthfully. Even when I lived in Michigan, my dogs were on preventative all year round. That is also what I was taught in the vet tech program in college and it was the norm in the clinics I worked. 
About the vaccinations. I also have my dogs get all the regular vaccines. I included Lymes vaccine, because of a huge tick problem. 
Just about a month ago, I was asking one of the vets at the clinic I go to about overvaccinating. By law, we have to do the one year rabies, but it is the same stuff as the three year rabies. Since clinics cut cost by buying vaccines that have all the vaccines in one, the pet will get all the vaccines yearly. My vet agreed, that Parvo and distemper last longer than yearly but Lepto is one of those that has to be given yearly, it won't last any longer than that. I live in the country, lots of wildlife and possibility of one of my dogs to drink standing water, so I have to vaccinate against Lepto. My dachshund is one that laps up water and will eat anything. 
My lab mix is turning 12 this year and he is due for vaccinations. Around here, titers are not available, sadly. 
This year I really have mixed feelings about getting him vaccinated, but again, wildlife, unvaccinated dogs everywhere, what is a person to do? Also, most vet clinics will not admit an unvaccinated dog for surgery or treatment, so said pet will have to be vaccinated prior to being admitted or when admitted. 
I have not had my pets vaccinated for kennel cough in a long time, I don't see a point in that one at all.
So, come next week, I guess Thunder will get rabies vaccine for sure and most likely the regular combination booster after that. I will skip the lymes with him this year.

Toby, my golden, is due for lymes vaccine. The surgeon I am in contact with, is also against overvaccinating. He said not to give the Lymes vaccine to the dogs. Toby had tested positive for Ehrlichia this past summer. We have a huge tick problem. What to do?

I really am a bit at a loss right now, as you can tell.

I do trust the vets, I am for vaccinations but having a couple of seniors and thinking about what is best for them, leaves me a bit in a quandary right now. 

Like I said, living in the country with constant wildlife around and my dogs probably being the only vaccinated dogs around here, does not make it any easier.


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## Thalie (Jan 20, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> Glad Cari posted this thread. This morning driving to work I was wondering about the heartworm pills. I just picked up six month supply for Rose this morning at the vet. How long to do you do it?
> 
> I was contemplating one to two years for Rose. Any thoughts?
> 
> I am glad we stopped Jack's heartworm meds after he got the Lupus (no contraindication but he was on too many meds: on and off prednisone, tagament, pain meds, immune booster supplements etc from 5 years old to almost 16 years old). The vet was pressuring me to do the vaccine but I simply refused. Turned out the vaccine caused problems in so many dogs it was taken off the market. Now they are back to the monthly tablets.


Heartworm preventative is not something you can do for a couple of years and stop. A dog can be infected any time a mosquito that carry the larvae bites the dog; it is basically not a question of "if" but of "when" the dog will be infected. Depending on where you are mosquitoes are potentially present about year-round (my case) or only some months and the incidence of heartworm is higher (my case) or lower but heartworm disease has been reported in all 50 states. There are a couple of ways to reduce the number of times you give the preventative if you want to minimize exposure to but no preventative at all at any time is putting the dog's health in jeopardy. By the time symptoms are seen there is no easy way to treat.

The ProHeart6 that was discontinued is back on the market (after some changes, I think) but is not something I would do.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

The choice between rabies and potentially getting cancer from the vaccine is very clear to me. Vaccinate the animal. Cancer is potentially treatable. Rabies is deadly always, and a rabid animal can pass this disease onto other animals very easily. It's a very painful way to die, and they always die from rabies, there is no cure once it is fully developed. I'll take a remote chance of cancer by using the vacine rather than see rabies spread. So I think it's a clear choice. We have the highest rate of rabies in the nation here in Alaska. It's very sad.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Rabies is the vaccine that I hate the most but it is necessary by law and even with a rabies exemption if there is a problem the dog is treated as any other unvaccinated dog... it is to risky for me so I do abide the law. 

Heartworms are not endemic in my area as they are in other parts of the country ie. the south so I don't worry about them all that much... that having said we test half the dogs every other year and I use ivermectin every other month from the time I see the first mosquito for a month after I see the last... it works retroactively so it is killing any worms that exist at the time of the dosage so I do this until after I see the last mosquito... last year was a warm year and i saw mosquitos all year long so we treated with the ivermectin all year long... that is not the norm where I live 

I do not routinely vaccinate for anything other than the distemper parvo ... I will not vaccinate for a disease that the vaccination does not completely protect the dog from the risk of that disease to me vaccinating for lyme when my dogs can still get lyme even after the vaccination is not something I want to do ... if someone comes up positive for lyme we run the C6 find out hte numbers and track it from there.. my feeling is the same for lepto and bordatella... the fact is that even with the vaccination the dogs can still get these illnesses. Luckily I am not in an area that lepto in endemic. I am constantly re-evaluating my protocol based on new research, new vaccines and new recommendations. 

I DO NOT blindly trust my vet without doing my own research for years vets were routinely over vaccinating dogs. Even with the new protocols I still see vets routinely vaccinating every year... I think it is foolhardy to not do your own research when it comes to vaccines or any other medical decision that needs to be made for your dog/pet


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

I guess "Claudia M" means proheart injection when stating vaccine? It is not a vaccine,there is no vaccine for heartworm disease. It is just something that is suppose to kill and prevent heartworms from forming for six months. I don't trust that either and would not use it in my dogs.
I am all for the monthly heartworm preventative, all year round, no matter what.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Wow, thanks for calling everybody foolhearty that has a vet they trust. Yes, a lot of vets still go by the old vaccination protocols, I agree with that. But, having been in the veterinary field for many years, I can understand it, because of the number of sick pets seen with those diseases. And yes, we need more research and it will take more time for vets to go with the times and try to change the vaccination protocols. 
But, as long as there are enough irresponsible pet owners out there, diseases will continue to spread and vaccinations will be given and have to be given
. 
Of course, I wish I would not have to vaccinate my dogs for everything all the time and I would very much like to cut back on vaccinations with the old dogs.
If it was a perfect world, every pet would be disease free, diseases erradicated and there be no need for vaccinations.
But, there will always be people with unvaccinated dogs spreading diseases. 

And I don't want to gamble with my dog's health. I doubt that makes me a stupid person.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

cgriffin said:


> Wow, thanks for calling everybody foolhearty that has a vet they trust. Yes, a lot of vets still go by the old vaccination protocols, I agree with that. But, having been in the veterinary field for many years, I can understand it, because of the number of sick pets seen with those diseases.  And yes, we need more research and it will take more time for vets to go with the times and try to change the vaccination protocols.
> But, as long as there are enough irresponsible pet owners out there, diseases will continue to spread and vaccinations will be given and have to be given
> .
> Of course, I wish I would not have to vaccinate my dogs for everything all the time and I would very much like to cut back on vaccinations with the old dogs.
> ...


Oh talk about putting words in someone mouth.... I did not call anyone stupid... what I did say is that not doing your own research and homework is foolhardy when you are making medical decisions... those are two completely different things!! honestly!!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I live with Chronic Lyme Disease. Due to that I was so happy there was a vaccine for Lyme for dogs. But the more I read the more I stayed away from it. I will be on watch for them and if any is found on her I will most certainly have her checked. I would hate to lower her immune system only to be bitten by a different disease carrying tick. 
Also the human Lyme vaccine has been withdraw off the market which puts me in a quandary as far as giving it to my dog.


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## Nyahsmommy (Jul 23, 2011)

I forgot to mention Nyah developed a sarcoma from the pain med needle from her spay. This is why i am so anti vaccine. We also gave her the Lyme shot as one of our cats not a tick this past summer. Our new vet doesn't even carry this vaccine and says it is prevented in the heartworm/tick topical and says the vaccines like that are really bad. I regret it now.


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## Cari (Sep 19, 2012)

Thanks for all the opinions and replies! I live in Texas and not having a dog on heartworm preventative pretty much all year around is like sticking 5 bullets in a 6 shooter and hoping that you get the empty. Its very risky all year around because the weather is so crazy here. It will be 30's and 40's for a few days and then back into the 80's so mosquitoes are likely to come out, if only briefly.

I will always do rabies as per the law even though the chance of my dog getting it is slight because of his very limited contact with unvaccinated or wild animals.

Also I cannot image not vaccinating against Parvo as a puppy  I've seen poor babies die from this because they were not vaccinated and were exposed somewhere and believe it that their owners regretted not vaccinating. And sure you can isolate pups for a while when they are young but you never know since Parvo is SO contagious and deadly. I wouldn't risk it.

As far as annual boosters for adults. What do you limited vaccine people think about that? And what usually do those boosters include? I might be good with not doing that every year.

As far as heart worm prevention and fleas as well as worms I use Trifexis with Yukon monthly and its great! I hate heart worms and I hate fleas and it prevents both and it has worked great so I continue to use it.


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## Cari (Sep 19, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Glad Cari posted this thread. This morning driving to work I was wondering about the heartworm pills. I just picked up six month supply for Rose this morning at the vet. How long to do you do it?
> 
> I was contemplating one to two years for Rose. Any thoughts?
> 
> I am glad we stopped Jack's heartworm meds after he got the Lupus (no contraindication but he was on too many meds: on and off prednisone, tagament, pain meds, immune booster supplements etc from 5 years old to almost 16 years old). The vet was pressuring me to do the vaccine but I simply refused. Turned out the vaccine caused problems in so many dogs it was taken off the market. Now they are back to the monthly tablets.


Like someone else said, heartworm preventative is a forever thing its not a vaccine. Any time a mosquito bites a dog that is not on preventative there is a chance for them to get heartworms.


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## Ohiomom9977 (Jul 27, 2012)

We did heartguard monthly for the entire life of our last golden - year round. We camp regularly in the summer so mosquitos are definately an issue. We have a friend that did not and their dog was diagnosed with heartworm at 11 years old  
As far as vaccines go - I'm on the fence about what we'll do in the future. Charlie reacted to even the most basic of puppy vaccines. Our new vet has mentioned the bloodwork to check for immunity to see what vaccines need done and that may be the route we go. Luckily we don't have to make any decisions on that until Sept/October of this year. We will get the rabies as it is required by law and I don't want to take the chance on that.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nyahsmommy said:


> I don't believe in vaccinations either, as over vaccination leads to cancer.


There is no evidence to support this statement. There is one kind of cancer that is _sometimes_ found in cats and very rarely in dogs that is related to vaccine site reactions, but there is no evidence to support such a broad statement as "over vaccination leads to cancer."

In fact, if it prevents a disease that causes long term inflammation, a vaccine might actually reduce the risk of many other kinds of cancer.

The verifiable fact is that vaccines, overall, save many, many more lives than they endanger. Yes, they have risks, and yes, it makes sense to be prudent and not to give them unnecessarily. But because there are some dangers in addition to the benefits, it behooves us to not to exaggerate those dangers.

There have been several recent cases outbreaks of serious childhood diseases in areas in the US where vaccination for those diseases has become less popular. Children's—and dog's—health is put at risk when the dangers of vaccines are exaggerated and people oversimplify the risks.


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## newport (Aug 8, 2011)

I am on the fence about this myself as well..... Personally I think vaccines are pushed and over used by phamacutical companies...$$$$. Vets push them also like Dentists push XRays. It is mostly about the all mighty dollar and they put the FEAR in us ( both Dentists AND Vets) that IF WE DO NOT DO AS THEY SAY the sky will fall..... I think as consumers we need to be EDUCATED.... Both for ourselves and for our loved ones. Do your research... there are vaccines pushed on customers for their pets that may not be specific to THAT pet and the life style it lives. You do not have to have them given all at the same time!! Space them out. If your pet is older... and or... not well... you may not want to give them vaccines at that time. Again become educated.. there is much good info out there both pro and con. :wave:This website has a terrific search engine that I use all the time for past threads and just information on any subject you need.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

newport said:


> Vets push them also like Dentists push XRays. It is mostly about the all mighty dollar


That is an incredibly unfair accusation to throw at vets. First of all, they'd make a lot more money treating dogs for distemper and parvo than they do with a $15 vaccination. Secondly, while I'm sure there's the occasional vet who's in it for the money, the vast majority are in it for the animals.

It is inaccurate, unfair, and downright rude to accuse vets of profiteering with vaccines. If a vet suggests a vaccine, it's because he or she believes it is in the dog's best interest.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Like with many other things, there is no shortage of varying opinions both here and around the Internet. I trust my vet, and just do what they suggest. I decided to to the Lymes vaccine, because I have two family members who have Lymes, and we spend time out on their land, which is where they likely got it. I can't claim to be an expert, but if the risk of contracting that disease is greater than the risks associated with the vaccine, I'll take the vaccine every time - whether it's for my kids or dogs. 

Please don't bring your unvaccinated dogs or kids anywhere near me, my family, or my dog. Thank you. 


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## BriGuy (Aug 31, 2010)

Claudia M said:


> Also the human Lyme vaccine has been withdraw off the market which puts me in a quandary as far as giving it to my dog.


It wasn't withdrawn for safety reasons, it was for financial reasons:
Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease And You Can’t | WBUR

The clinical data do not reflect any of the harmful side effects that became urban legend.


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## newport (Aug 8, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> That is an incredibly unfair accusation to throw at vets. First of all, they'd make a lot more money treating dogs for distemper and parvo than they do with a $15 vaccination. Secondly, while I'm sure there's the occasional vet who's in it for the money, the vast majority are in it for the animals.
> 
> It is inaccurate, unfair, and downright rude *to accuse vets of* *profiteering* *with vaccines*. If a vet suggests a vaccine, it's because he or she believes it is in the dog's best interest.


Sorry- I do not think this statement is unfair at all. BE EDUCATED. Not all vets are ethical just like not all doctors or dentists are ethical. A consumer must be on their game these days and go in knowing what is what and what they need AND TO ASK MANY QUESTIONS. Yes there are many good vets out there. There are also many who work for profit first.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Nyahsmommy said:


> I forgot to mention Nyah developed a sarcoma from the pain med needle from her spay. This is why i am so anti vaccine. We also gave her the Lyme shot as one of our cats not a tick this past summer. Our new vet doesn't even carry this vaccine and says it is prevented in the heartworm/tick topical and says the vaccines like that are really bad. I regret it now.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


She had an actual sarcoma??? That's a big scary thing with a BIG surgery to remove all the "fingers" of cancer and most likely chemo. Maybe it was just an inflammatory nodule? Those are very common and go away on their own.


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## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

Actually, it is advised (especially for cats) to give vaccines in the back leg. That way, if there is a sacrcoma there is a better chance in removing all of the tumor. It is rare for tumors to occur from vaccines though. There can be bump reactions, but that is normal.

All the veterinary vaccines and medicine we have for our animals are there for a reason. Years ago when these things were not around, animals were dying young. I remember a story my father told me of when he was a child. His sister got a cute puppy from the shelter for her birthday. A week later, the puppy was really sick and ended up dying from parvo. I do think that we over vaccinate, I just think there needs to be a balance between the two. We should vaccinate, but not over do it. 

Vets are constituently attending seminars and reading journals on these types of topics. It doesn’t matter when a vet goes to school; he/she is always staying updated with the newest data.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

BriGuy said:


> It wasn't withdrawn for safety reasons, it was for financial reasons:
> Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease And You Can’t | WBUR
> 
> The clinical data do not reflect any of the harmful side effects that became urban legend.


So it just got withdrawn because some anti vaccine people said it was bad thus causing low demand. hmmmm
The HPV vaccine had more people complaining about it and it is still on the market.


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## Nyahsmommy (Jul 23, 2011)

IowaGold said:


> She had an actual sarcoma??? That's a big scary thing with a BIG surgery to remove all the "fingers" of cancer and most likely chemo. Maybe it was just an inflammatory nodule? Those are very common and go away on their own.


Has. It's currently being tested to see if its currently cancerous or not. I don't think it is now but could be in the future when she is old. We may have to do surgery to remove it but are waiting for the test results to come back from the lab. 

I agree with the person who says most vets push vaccines. It's a business and the more money they make the better. Not all are like this and Nyah's new vet said they don't carry any extra vaccines because they are useless (like Lyme, kennel cough ,ect) and said its a money maker.


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

Nyahsmommy said:


> *Has*. It's currently being tested to see if its currently cancerous or not. I don't think it is now but could be in the future when she is old. We may have to do surgery to remove it but are waiting for the test results to come back from the lab.
> 
> I agree with the person who says most vets push vaccines. It's a business and the more money they make the better. Not all are like this and Nyah's new vet said they don't carry any extra vaccines because they are useless (like Lyme, kennel cough ,ect) and said its a money maker.
> 
> ...


I thought Sarcoma IS a cancer.  You dont actually know she has Sarcoma, you are in the testing phase now to find out, yes?
Sarcoma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I absolutely blame the local vets here for pushing over vaccinations. Law here says we can give three year rabies, but vets here banded together and will only give yearly. I refuse to go along with that, so I will travel out of state in order to get a three year vaccine if I have to, but the general public is never going to do that, so they are being forced into yearly rabies.


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## Nyahsmommy (Jul 23, 2011)

Wendi said:


> I thought Sarcoma IS a cancer.  You dont actually know she has Sarcoma, you are in the testing phase now to find out, yes?
> Sarcoma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Well a sarcoma from a needle just means a lump that has fluid build up from the vaccination but it could possible turn to a cancerous sarcoma. Yes we are waiting for the test results still.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

You don't mean seroma?


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Vaccine-associated sarcoma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> Vaccine-associated sarcoma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


That is very scary...I never knew this.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

We also do a limited vaccine protocol as recommended by both our breeder and our holistic vet. Kea had her distemper/parvo combo protocol as a pup, rabies at 6 months, and we will be doing titers from here on out. The holistic vet believes she will not need another distemper/parvo combo until she is 6 or 7 (she's 2 now). We have never done bordatella, our breeder strongly advised against it, and after doing some of my own research, decided it wasn't worth the risks. We did have to take a letter to the doggie swimming pool from our vet saying Kea was healthy and we understood the risks, etc. 

Regarding heartworm, our holistic vet recommended treating every other month instead of every month. She told me that during a veterinary conference back in the 80's when heartworm first reared its ugly head in Colorado, she learned that the heartworm parasite takes 90-120 days to mature. She raised her hand and asked why the preventative was to be given every 30 days, and was told that the 'average' pet owner is too STUPID to remember to give it every other month. Hmmm. 

As I was researching all of this on my own after we got Kea, I came across a California breeder's website containing information about limited vaccination schedules as well as early spay/neuter that supported what my own breeder had told me. It looks like they're actually requiring their puppy people to agree to do titers...

Preferred Vaccination Schedule 

(I have no affiliation with this breeder but I really like the info they've included on their site)

I should also add that we have a conventional vet who we absolutely love in addition to the holistic vet. I think it's important to ask questions and seek answers from more than just one person. The field of veterinary medicine is constantly evolving, and not every vet will have had access to the same education in every area (vaccinations and nutrition are prime examples). I've found that this is the best way to stay on top of the latest advances to protect the health of my furbabies.


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## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

I agree. I too have a conventional and holistic vet for my animals. It is my way of balancing things out. I hate when vet offices send yearly reminders in the mail saying your pet is do for vaccines. The first priority should always be a PHYSICAL! However most reminders don't even say that. My cat never got a Physical reminder after a year in the mail. I called up and asked and they said she wasn't due for any shots! I was like are you kidding me?! So I took her for her physical at my holistic vet and it cost way less and she saw me for a lot longer then my conventional vet ever would. AND she pulled out her tools and gave my cat a teeth cleaning right then for FREE. My cat was so relaxed that she allowed it. No Sadation and lots of money spent.


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

My yearly reminder is for a physical and a fecal sample. Shots are listed at the bottom, if any are due. (Shot are giving every 3 years)

My Vet has to be in his mid to late 60's, I have been going to him for 25+ years and he is who informed me that they do not give shot yearly any longer. He semi-retired once. His daughter has joined his practice and I hope she continues on his ways of treating people with respect as well as animals with such kindness and talk, that man can talk! 

When Jorgee got sick, our bill was adding up pretty quick. I over heard him tell the the lady that was putting our bill together to give us a discount. So, no, not all Vets are in it for the money.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

newport said:


> Sorry- I do not think this statement is unfair at all. BE EDUCATED. Not all vets are ethical just like not all doctors or dentists are ethical. A consumer must be on their game these days and go in knowing what is what and what they need AND TO ASK MANY QUESTIONS. Yes there are many good vets out there. There are also many who work for profit first.


I'm sure there are _some_ unethical vets. But a blanket statement about the "almighty dollar" being vets' motivation for suggesting vaccines is totally unfair. The vast majority of vets advocate for vaccination, and that vast majority surely doesn't put profit above the health of animals.

Asking questions is great. Getting educated is great. Insulting vets is rude.


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## Nyahsmommy (Jul 23, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I'm sure there are _some_ unethical vets. But a blanket statement about the "almighty dollar" being vets' motivation for suggesting vaccines is totally unfair. The vast majority of vets advocate for vaccination, and that vast majority surely doesn't put profit above the health of animals.
> 
> Asking questions is great. Getting educated is great. Insulting vets is rude.


I'm guess you are a vet? Lol. In my experience, the older, more experienced the vet, the more out for the money they are, pushing science diet, useless vaccines, etc. Nyah's first vet is the one the screwed up her spay and took no responsibility at all for it. My cats vet called me a liar giving me a crappy prescription diet for my one cats food allergy which made her way worse and I ended up figuring out myself after $$$$ of wasted money later. I refuse to see a vet unless my animals are deathly ill. I have 0 trust in them, although my latest one is a young white English guy that seems to be honest and knows what he's talking about.


To the person who said they go to a holistic vet... Where do you look for those? I am highly interested in the all natural approach and don't believe in chemicals. I haven't seen any in my area.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nyahsmommy said:


> I'm guess you are a vet? Lol. In my experience, the older, more experienced the vet, the more out for the money they are, pushing science diet, useless vaccines, etc.


I'm not a vet, but I bet you if you ever have a health problem with your dog and ask about it on the forum, our members who are highly experienced vets will overlook these nasty comments and still offer you advice because they care about helping dogs.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Nyahsmommy said:


> I'm guess you are a vet? Lol. In my experience, the older, more experienced the vet, the more out for the money they are, pushing science diet, useless vaccines, etc. Nyah's first vet is the one the screwed up her spay and took no responsibility at all for it. My cats vet called me a liar giving me a crappy prescription diet for my one cats food allergy which made her way worse and I ended up figuring out myself after $$$$ of wasted money later. I refuse to see a vet unless my animals are deathly ill. I have 0 trust in them, although my latest one is a young white English guy that seems to be honest and knows what he's talking about.
> 
> 
> To the person who said they go to a holistic vet... Where do you look for those? I am highly interested in the all natural approach and don't believe in chemicals. I haven't seen any in my area.
> ...


I don't know anything about the holistic vets, but how can you be sure they aren't "out for the money?" 

I don't automatically assume that if someone makes a profit, they are out to screw me. 

Quick story....Bella had some dark spots on her belly that looked like some sort of rash. After searching around on the web, I thought it might be a bacterial infection. I took her to the vet yesterday, and was told that it was just DIRT. Apparently, they secrete sebum in that area, which attracts dirt that does not come off easily. The vet cleaned it off, weighed her, and sent me on my way without charging me a dime. I didn't even have to ask. 


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Nyahsmommy said:


> I'm guess you are a vet? Lol. In my experience, the older, more experienced the vet, the more out for the money they are, pushing science diet, useless vaccines, etc. Nyah's first vet is the one the screwed up her spay and took no responsibility at all for it. My cats vet called me a liar giving me a crappy prescription diet for my one cats food allergy which made her way worse and I ended up figuring out myself after $$$$ of wasted money later. I refuse to see a vet unless my animals are deathly ill. I have 0 trust in them, although my latest one is a young white English guy that seems to be honest and knows what he's talking about.
> 
> 
> To the person who said they go to a holistic vet... Where do you look for those? I am highly interested in the all natural approach and don't believe in chemicals. I haven't seen any in my area.
> ...


I am sad for your pets because I believe they might suffer due to your prejudice against the veterinary profession - I cannot imagine not taking my animals to a vet unless they are deathly ill because many times vets can offer good preventive advice that prevents your dog from becoming deathly ill in the first place, saving you money in the long run. Instead of trashing vets and blaming them for everything why not research good well respected veterinarians in your area. I'm sure some board members in your area could steer you in the right direction.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

For those who are interested, here's a link to the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association AHVMA Home Page 

We found a holistic vet in Pennsylvania after Daphne's bout with breast cancer. Being faced with a poor prognosis even with chemo after her surgery, and told by our regular vet that there was nothing else we could do besides chemo (which we did not want to do), we found a holistic vet and started accupuncture along with a high-protein food and several supplements. She went into remission and lived another 4.5 years, which was nothing short of a miracle. 

When I was looking after we moved, I think I just googled holistic vet and my city. I don't think conventional vets (at least the ones I've worked with) intentionally try to mislead people, they're just doing what they've been taught. Our conventional vet is actually pretty progressive (he is certified in accupuncture), but he still sells Iams prescription diets. The owner of our current conventional vet practice and our holistic vet actually went to vet school together, and know/respect each other, so it makes it a lot easier for me to get second opinions. 

It's a tough web to navigate, you just have to do your homework IMO.


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## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

There are two holistic vets in Maine that I heard about from dog friends. They also have websites. There are also a few other conventional vets who do practice some holistic methods. (like acupuncture) I would ask around. And if your not happy with your current vet, ask around as well. Maybe someone can suggest someone else who they really like.


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## Nyahsmommy (Jul 23, 2011)

Well our current vet just called about the sarcoma results and spent a half hour on the phone thoroughly. Apparently it's a big scar tissue from her spay. He was really nice and said we could get it removed for $600 but its nothing to be concerned about unless it gets bigger. It could turn into a tumour but its fine for now. So we will probably just leave it. 


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## Jessie'sGirl (Aug 30, 2010)

I'm sorry that what stated out as an honest discussion has turned into a vet-trashing thread. I owe my dog's life to good veterinary care .


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

It sure would be nice if folks would stop making rude and unreasonable blanket statements about anything! In every profession, there are wonderful practitioners, many who are perfectly adequate, and some who shouldn't be practicing their profession at all. If you feel your vet is awful, find one who is better. If you have a problem with something your vet suggests for your pet's health, open your mouth and say so, nicely. You can always agree to disagree. Bashing an entire profession is not only rude, it's incredibly immature. I am not a vet but I know and respect some amazingly great and compassionate ones. I also know a few who are past their sell by date, who don't enjoy what they do and probably shouldn't do it anymore. My primary vet wept after giving my beloved old boy his angel wings, and then he sent me not one, but three, condolence notes. For those of you bashing all vets based on your own experiences, I suggest you go to vet school so you can be in charge of your pets health and only ever do it the "correct" way, which would be YOUR way!


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Nyahsmommy said:


> Well our current vet just called about the sarcoma results and spent a half hour on the phone thoroughly. Apparently it's a big scar tissue from her spay. He was really nice and said we could get it removed for $600 but its nothing to be concerned about unless it gets bigger. It could turn into a tumour but its fine for now. So we will probably just leave it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


It is not now, nor has it ever been a "sarcoma." A sarcoma is a malignant tumor. What your pup had was a suspicious growth that turned out to be nothing more than scar tissue. Also, how exactly did a reaction to an injection of pain medication shape your view on vaccines? Just as sarcoma is not a catch-all term for any suspicious growth at a needle site, neither does the word vaccine include all injectable medications. 

You have zero trust in vets and refuse to bring your pets to one unless it is a life and death situation, yet admit that your current vet is kind and honest... confirmed here as he spent a significant amount of time on the phone with you (rather than bringing you in to the office and charging you for the visit) and steering you away from an unnecessary medical procedure. Look, I've had experience with some less-than-stellar vets over the years too. It doesn't mean you write off veterinary care altogether... it just means you keep looking until you find a vet you like and whose philosophy on care is similar to your own. It sounds like you've found that. Why deny your pets potentially life-saving preventative care and early intervention against illnesses? Don't they deserve more at least that much?

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## beemerdog (Dec 1, 2012)

I'm wondering if the reason the breeder is advocating the minimal vaccine is because she doesn't want to pay for the vet bills.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I recommend minimal vaccines and it has nothing to do with vet bills 


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nyahsmommy said:


> Well our current vet just called about the sarcoma results and spent a half hour on the phone thoroughly. Apparently it's a big scar tissue from her spay. He was really nice and said we could get it removed for $600 but its nothing to be concerned about unless it gets bigger. It could turn into a tumour but its fine for now. So we will probably just leave it.


First of all, I'm very glad your cat doesn't have cancer

However, I'm very confused about the details you've given us. First, you said that vaccines cause cancer. Then you said your cat got cancer from a pain med needle. Then you said it wasn't a sarcoma at all, but rather a lump of scar tissues at the site of the spay incision itself.

Do I have this straight? Your cat had scar tissue from a spay, which you said was an injection site sarcoma. I'm still not sure how that confusion arose, as the incision for the spay and the site they inject pain meds probably wouldn't be in the same place, right? And you told us all this as some kind of anecdote that demonstrates that vaccines cause cancer? I am so lost.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> First of all, I'm very glad your cat doesn't have cancer
> 
> However, I'm very confused about the details you've given us. First, you said that vaccines cause cancer. Then you said your cat got cancer from a pain med needle. Then you said it wasn't a sarcoma at all, but rather a lump of scar tissues at the site of the spay incision itself.
> 
> Do I have this straight? Your cat had scar tissue from a spay, which you said was an injection site sarcoma. I'm still not sure how that confusion arose, as the incision for the spay and the site they inject pain meds probably wouldn't be in the same place, right? And you told us all this as some kind of anecdote that demonstrates that vaccines cause cancer? I am so lost.


What I do know is that cats who get these reactions to vaccines have a very high rate of them turning to a sarcoma and injection site cancers are fairly common in cats... that having been said I hardly vaccinate my cats at all as they are totally indoors so I have not done my own research on this topic... just reporting back what my vet has said...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Shalva said:


> What I do know is that cats who get these reactions to vaccines have a very high rate of them turning to a sarcoma and injection site cancers are fairly common in cats... that having been said I hardly vaccinate my cats at all as they are totally indoors so I have not done my own research on this topic... just reporting back what my vet has said...


There are definitely documented instances of vaccine site sarcomas in cats, most likely due to particular adjuvants in particular vaccines. I believe cat vaccine protocols were adjusted accordingly in order to minimize the possibility of those sarcomas. It's also important to note that they are practically unheard of in dogs.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> First of all, I'm very glad your cat doesn't have cancer


Cat? How did I miss that??? :doh: 

Nyahsmommy: sorry for referring to your cat as a pup. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

No,my understanding is that she was talking about Nyah, which is a Golden. 
But, I think she jumped the gun on the sarcoma bit when she did not have a confirmed diagnosis, but was quick to make assumptions and accusations.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

cgriffin said:


> No,my understanding is that she was talking about Nyah, which is a Golden.


I went back and checked. You're right. The first post about the mass said this:


> I forgot to mention Nyah developed a sarcoma from the pain med needle from her spay.


I tend to miss glaringly obvious details at times (I once treated a patient for weeks before I noticed an 8 foot tall bear in her living room... a story for another time perhaps, lol) so when others referenced a cat, I just assumed it was me.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Jersey's Mom said:


> I went back and checked. You're right. The first post about the mass said this:
> 
> 
> I tend to miss glaringly obvious details at times (I once treated a patient for weeks before I noticed an 8 foot tall bear in her living room... a story for another time perhaps, lol) so when others referenced a cat, I just assumed it was me.
> ...


join the club lol


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Apparently I'm in that club too, because I thought it was a cat. Now I'm REALLY confused.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Apparently I'm in that club too, because I thought it was a cat. Now I'm REALLY confused.


I'm doubly confused because it doesn't fit that originally the bump was from the pain shot, then it was diagnosed as scar tissue from the spay. The pain shot wouldn't have been given anywhere near the incision so I'm not sure how it became a possible injection site sarcoma when it obviously wasn't anywhere near an injection site???


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

AlanK said:


> I trust my vet and my buddy gets the recommended vaccines....


Trusting a vet isn't a substitute for knowing the issues around vaccination and making a conscious decision about what is right for your dog. I know so many vets that go against the current science, and it is not good for the dogs.


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

cgriffin said:


> Toby, my golden, is due for lymes vaccine. The surgeon I am in contact with, is also against overvaccinating. He said not to give the Lymes vaccine to the dogs. Toby had tested positive for Ehrlic


I would trust your surgeon on this one, the Lyme vaccine isn't that effective, and it can damage the immune system. You already have a dog that has had Ehrlichia.


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> ....but there is no evidence to support such a broad statement as "over vaccination leads to cancer."...


I was listening to an interview with a vet that specializes in treating dogs with cancer. He said that there is some evidence that by continually vaccinating and keeping the immune system primed for certain specifici diseases, it appears to lower their defences for cancer, and I would suspect other diseases too. Makes a certain type of sense, since you are continually stimulating the immune system to pump out high numbers of circulating antibodies, rather than relying on memory cells.


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> .....If a vet suggests a vaccine, it's because he or she believes it is in the dog's best interest.


Not necessarily. A lot of "factory clinics" (VCA, Banfield, etc.) increase their profits by vaccinating for *everything*, and often. I have two VCA clinics that I use, and they have very different protocols that they recommend, it's a very interesting comparison.


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

Nairb said:


> Please don't bring your unvaccinated dogs or kids anywhere near me, my family, or my dog. Thank you. http://www.petguide.com/mobile


You do not trust your vaccines to protect your dogs?


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

BriGuy said:


> It wasn't withdrawn for safety reasons, it was for financial reasons:
> Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease And You Can’t | WBUR
> 
> The clinical data do not reflect any of the harmful side effects that became urban legend.


Actually, it was drawn for some very important safety reasons. About 1/3 of the human population has a genetic make up that sets them up to develop severe "lyme arthritis" (and possibly other symptoms) from the lyme vaccine. Facing that new discovery, they pulled the vaccine from the market, stating financial reasons. (LOL, yes financial reasons, because the lawsuits I suspect would be outrageous.) I also suspect that the same is true, to some degree, in dogs, though I don't know what population of dogs have this genetic makeup. 

The "new safer" lyme vaccine was similar to that vaccine, it was an OspA vaccine that did not have an adjuvant. However, subsequent canine vaccines have added the adjuvant, and increased the antigenic stimulation.


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

beemerdog said:


> I'm wondering if the reason the breeder is advocating the minimal vaccine is because she doesn't want to pay for the vet bills.


I suspect that this is a natural rearing breeder, and this is her philosophy on what it takes to breed a dog with a healthy immune system, not compromised by a lot of the cr*p that they put in the vaccines. Unfortunately, those pups aren't immune to getting sick and dying, but neither are pups that follow more traditional vaccine schedules. 

My girl last had a 4 way shot when she was about 5 months old, and that will be her last combination shot. Rabies of course is determined by local law.


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## Nyahsmommy (Jul 23, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Apparently I'm in that club too, because I thought it was a cat. Now I'm REALLY confused.


Haha sorry, my post was a bit confusing. I was referring to my golden about the sarcoma and yes it turns out that it was scar tissue but that's not the reason I don't agree with vaccines. It's the fact that a lot of these vaccines are useless chemicals pumped in their body that can cause cancer down the road. Look I may be newer to pets but I know/knew lots of people who did not give there animals any vaccination and lived to be a ripe old age and died of natural causes. I also know a animals who see a vet twice a year, etc and get cancer early. Yes it could be coincidence or maybe not. All I know are cats are very sensitive to vaccinations is why I don't vaccinate my cats, and Goldens are more prone to cancer which is why I don't chose to pump cancerous chemicals into mine.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

There are so many unsourced claims about "pumping" and "chemicals" and "immune systems" in this thread that demonstrate a startling lack of knowledge of basic biology, though that lack of basic biological knowledge does not appear to keep the posters from making their claims with surprising confidence.

I'm not going to go and pull everything apart, but I hope most people can tell the difference between a claim based on evidence, made by somebody who understands the principles involved and a reactionary, knee-jerk claim that's based on scare stories instead of on actual research.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

I have to admit, I skipped Toby's and Thunder's lyme vaccine this month. 
Given Toby's history with arthritis, I really was not sure if it would be the right thing to vaccinate against Lymes this year. My vet did not fight me on this at all, in fact, a few years ago, I was the one asking for the lymes vaccine, my vet never steared me in that direction. 
I did a lot of reading up on Lymes vaccines and I really do not feel comfortable with it anymore. Will I regret my decision? I hope not.
I skipped the lymes vaccine on Thunder, because he just had his yearly rabies and combo shot boosters, he did not need another vaccine at this point to overload his system.


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