# Do I get a stink eye for having a white golden ?



## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

In reading the boards I notice white goldens is generally looked down upon. Is this true ? 


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## dezymond (May 3, 2012)

Not in my eyes. There's the cutest 11wk old that goes to our dog park and I want to kidnap him and make him Mav's little brother. 

Maverick doesn't have "standard" Golden Retriever tendencies, that doesn't make him any less of a Golden in my eyes and neither does the color of the coat on yours.


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## Ripley16 (Jan 26, 2012)

I think that the issue a lot of people have with "English Creme" or "White" goldens is not because of their colour, but because of the stigma that comes with the designer colour and the breeders who try to capitalize on the prestige of the reputation of the "English Creme". Every single breeder who advertised their dogs as english cremes or whites when I was looking was asking hundreds of dollars more than all of the other reputable breeders I contacted. I quickly came to the conclusions that the name English Creme was just a big old money grabber! My girl's maternal lines are all light coloured dogs, because thats just what my breeder preferred, but did not charge more for her pups than the majority of breeders, and did not advertise that as a selling point. 

Ripley is more of a medium gold in colour, but had siblings who were pure white. We chose her due to her personality and also because I like a darker dog. We were charged the same for a darker pup, than those who received a light pup, and that's the way it should be IMHO. Colour is strictly a preference, and does not heighten the value of the dog in my mind. Seeing as I personally prefer a "Golden" Golden Retriever, I tend to prefer the look of darker dogs, but still feel that the white coloured dogs are equally as beautiful, just not my personal preference. 

No one should look down on a white golden, because the breed has a wide range of acceptable colours with white being one of them. It's the breeders who try to squeeze you for more money is what I have a problem with!


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## RetriverBoys (Mar 29, 2014)

*We got our Goldie a ****** lol*

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=375177&stc=1&d=1397199236


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I've been told that Max can't be pure Golden because he's:
a) too blonde
b) too curly
c) too big

To all of that I say "pffffffffffffffffffffttttttttttttttttttt"
He's totally Golden and so is Thor, and I love them all, don't care what color their fur is. Give them a good old mud hole and they'll all come out the same.


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## RetriverBoys (Mar 29, 2014)

Everyone seems to love them both equally when we take them to the park


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I don't look down on light Goldens, and I think the whole concept of looking down on a dog is the height of silliness on the human's part. It's a dog. It didn't pick its color, its breeding, or its owners.

I think there's a terminology issue that's relatively important: light Goldens are light gold, not white. Even when they're cream-colored, which is perfectly fine in the KC standard, they're not really white. Just as my boys aren't properly called "red" but rather "dark gold." You can have a useful discussion about whether dogs should be bred based on their coat color, and you can certainly say a breeder is unethical for unethically breeding or marketing for color. But looking down on a dog for it? Humans are so weird.

A white dog would be out of standard. But being out of standard isn't something to look down on, just something that means the dog probably shouldn't be bred. Heck, Jax has a gigantic white mismark on his chest, but what a stupid thing it would be to look down on him or me for that. He spends all day trying to be the best dog he can.


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## Deber (Aug 23, 2011)

I am sorry to say that color makes a huge difference in AKC. Our light dogs (I have 2) are not welcome. I guess I am not biased because I find I love every shade our goldens come in.

To answer your question I would answer "Yes", that the lighter colored Goldens are given the Stink Eye by our AKC and many Show Breeders. I hope as the lighter goldens are accepted more by the public, possibly our vision of the perfect Golden will evolve back to the "bones" and color will be something they honestly don't see. To me, they are all still Golden's and a dog shouldn't be dismissed because of color alone. 

We have had one smaller very dark golden, one med. colored, now 2 very light goldens, all are Goldens, all beautiful in their different colors. I loved them all.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think the pretensions of some people are more of a put off than anything else? 

I don't know the people on the forum, so can't speak to that. But you do have people that we encounter in "real life" who go around thinking their dogs are better bred than the dogs in the show ring. And then it's not enough to prop up their own dogs, but to bash other people's dogs? 

And that's people talking trash about the dogs in the show ring or in general. And reciting all kinds of stuff that they read on the internet as far as the differences.... or portraying the English style as a different breed. There is only one breed of golden retriever recognized in the AKC. If people are breeding away from that breed standard, then they are unfortunately putting the dogs into limbo as far as being able to show them in a recognized and respected registry. Breed standard isn't just color. 

There are lighter goldens who are shown in the AKC. I posted a picture on this forum of a golden who won down in OH/PA (somewhere around there). And there was an English line golden (who was darker than Bertie) who won at the same location. Color doesn't matter as much as what the judge is looking at in that ring. I'm hoping that they are not just looking at handlers, but measuring each dog against the breed standard and ideal. 

Over time, there has been a certain style of golden which is shown in the ring. Unlike the labs, there can't have pouches, and generally speaking they need to be able to move. 

The show I was at last week (see picture below of my baby boy  ) - pretty much all the goldens were shades of medium to darker gold, and the boys weighed between 65 and 75. 

You look at some of these breeder websites for "white goldens" and these dogs are pretty meaty looking and there are other reasons why they wouldn't look right out there in the show ring with the dogs below - whether that's the fact they have no coats, or their eyes are droopy, or so on.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

There is a very influential breeder in MA who came to Westminster last year with a very light boy who had a ton of success leading up to it. He didn't win in Westminster, but he's a grand champion. Light dogs do just fine in the show ring. I definitely see more of them than very dark dogs.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

The boy who is to be the sire of Bug's litter (if she ever comes into season!) is very light in color. He is a Grand Champion and a multiple Specialty winning dog. Not all judges like him because of that, but not all judges like the very dark dogs either.

Granted he is not English style, but he is very very light.

It's not the color of the dog and not the dog, as many have already said. It is the marketing and the "greeders" who seem to have migrated to these dogs as an easy way to make money by charging megabucks while spreading misinformation and breeding without thought or clearances, that people don't like.

Here is Patton:


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

The only time I give stink eye over color is when owners won't shut up about their "international champion English Cream retriever who is most definitely NOT a golden retriever but is its own breed!!! Oh and btw your dog can possibly be golden retriever because he's black!"

But that's stink eye over the owner. Not the dog. I think Thor is adorable!!!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

LOL, I did roll my eyes internally when I heard a guy at the vet loudly proclaiming that his English Cream Retriever was much healthier than American Golden Retrievers.


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## chloesmomMI (May 4, 2013)

My Chloe is a pale blondie and she gets a lot of compliments, although she's occasionally mistaken for a yellow lab ("Look at the TAIL!! She has feathers!!). Of course, I've never tried to show her so perhaps she's not the "right" shade of golden, but the people in my neighborhood and at the park who give her the compliments usually say that she's a beauty BECAUSE she's light. I didn't go looking for a pale one; she's just the doggie who won my heart.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

It is not about the color. It is about the "English creme" BYBs and unsuspecting buyers who put down American style Goldens and say "English creme" is better. Reputable breeders don't put down any style of golden retrievers or market theirs as better. You don't see American style golden breeders saying English type Goldens are less healthy, have poorer structure, etc. I also cannot stand when people use the term "English creme". People who know the breed and reputable breeders of English style goldens don't use that term.

There was a golden owner at the park who told me her girl doesn't swim because she's a "designer golden".. an "english creme". You can bet they thought their dog was superior.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Back when we used to go to dog park, we met a girl with a very very white golden puppy - and she proudly informed me that she had paid well over $2000 for her "designer English Creme Golden." 
I said, "you do realize you got taken, don't you?"
She looked at the ground and quietly said, "yes, but I really wanted a light Golden."

Ohhhkay. As Hooch would say, "you can't fix stupid."


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## Katduf (Mar 10, 2013)

My Stormy is extremely light in colour, I didn't choose her, she was selected for me by the breeder. I never use the term English Creme. She's a golden retriever, she just happens to have a light coat.






. Bear is more gold in colour, comes from the same lines. In Australia, a lot of the goldens tend to be lighter than in the US, I have only encountered a handful darker coloured goldens here, and they were beautiful. 


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## LadyLuck1022 (Nov 24, 2013)

I haven't really seen that on the forum, I'm still fairly new, but I feel like there are all kinds of golden parents on here. 

Maybe I'm partial because we have an English Golden 

In real life we get lots of questions, but I think people are more curious than anything else because not everyone has seen them. She is still pretty young and some people think she is a golden lab.


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## pb2b (Nov 8, 2013)

"Don't hate me because I'm beautiful," says Thor. "Now give me a cookie!"


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Not so much on this board, (if I ever felt that way it was due to me being overly sensitive), but Chance has been looked down on a couple of times when I've taken him places. 

The one I remember the most was when I was bathing him at my shop and another Golden came in. His owner looked over at Chance and said, "Dogs like yours are ruining the breed". Meh...whatever. I didn't even acknowledge that she said anything. It did hurt a little, though...


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

kwhit said:


> Not so much on this board, (if I ever felt that way it was due to me being overly sensitive), but Chance has been looked down on a couple of times when I've taken him places.
> 
> The one I remember the most was when I was bathing him at my shop and another Golden came in. His owner looked over at Chance and said, "Dogs like yours are ruining the breed". Meh...whatever. I didn't even acknowledge that she said anything. It did hurt a little, though...


Is that Chance in your signature? Holy cow, I have never seen such a light golden. He is special and beautiful. You must be so proud. How old is he?


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Brave said:


> The only time I give stink eye over color is when owners won't shut up about their "international champion English Cream retriever who is most definitely NOT a golden retriever but is its own breed!!! Oh and btw your dog can possibly be golden retriever because he's black!"
> 
> But that's stink eye over the owner. Not the dog. I think Thor is adorable!!!
> 
> ...


OMG THIS! Its this! There's a golden that lives down the street from my BF's parents. My BF's parent's insist that the owners say their dog isn't a golden that he's a different breed. and ENGLISH retriever. Not a golden retriever. There is no such thing as an english retriever. They're all one in the same, just different styles of the same breed. I see them walking down the street and to be completely honest their "English Retriever" doesn't even look like it fits the standard for the English style, looks more closely like the American to me. Looks just like Oliver actually, a bit lighter, but not even all that creme. Not blocky head, bigger and taller than Oliver. Not stocky. End rant. I love them all, I think they're all awesome beautiful amazing dogs. But they're all GOLDEN retrievers.

http://www.akc.org/breeds/sporting_group.cfm (I don't see English Retriever anywhere, just saying  )


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Tahnee GR said:


> The boy who is to be the sire of Bug's litter (if she ever comes into season!) is very light in color. He is a Grand Champion and a multiple Specialty winning dog. Not all judges like him because of that, but not all judges like the very dark dogs either.
> 
> Granted he is not English style, but he is very very light.
> 
> ...


 He's a beauty.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

When Rose was young she was always confused with a great Pyrenees pup. Then even less than a month ago with a mix yellow lab. She runs like a lab, has the energy and stubbornness of a lab but looks like and has the gentleness of a golden.
I honestly can say I have never had a dog like her. And do not care who looks down on her because of her color or because my comments on her.


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## Ruby13 (Dec 28, 2013)

I had never seen the lighter Goldens until I moved to Canada and spent 10 years there. I rarely saw anything other than the almost white ones there...I thought they were beautiful!

I love all of the colors. Ruby is a dark golden 'red', Sadie was medium, and I would welcome a 'white' one into my home. It's that Golden heart we're after!!!


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Shellbug said:


> In reading the boards I notice white goldens is generally looked down upon. Is this true ?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 You picked the right dog for you and that is *all* that really matters. Isn't it?


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## 1oldparson (Mar 5, 2013)

The only way I'd give you the stink eye is if I liked your dog better than mine, eg jealousy. That's not gonna happen, so enjoy your pal!


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

mybuddy said:


> Is that Chance in your signature? Holy cow, I have never seen such a light golden. He is special and beautiful. You must be so proud. How old is he?


Thank you. Yes, he is very special.  

He'll be 10 years old on September 27th, his Gotcha Day. At least that's the birthday I gave him. The people that gave him to me gave me false vet records. They were for a German Shepherd...I found out through the number on the rabies tag. :no:

He came from a HVB that charges an arm and a leg for their dogs. They usually have 60-70 puppies available at any given time. Crazy...:doh:


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## thorbreafortuna (Jun 9, 2013)

First of all, I agree with tippykayak. I'll go further, anyone who can "look down" on a puppy of any kind is too far gone for you to even worry about their opinion. What people often object to is the breeding for color as opposed to for health and other attributes and often more for profit than for the dog. For looks I admit I always prefered goldens with darker golden tones, but I have never thought of other shades as less lovely, and ultimately wouldn't have cared if my dog had been of any shade in the golden spectrum. Recently I have seen some very very light goldens (what one would call white) and of course they are absolutely beautiful, as is your Thor, and sweet. If the dog is healthy and has the right temperament, that is what counts. The more I love my Thor the more I seem to love all Goldens, funny how that works.


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

Charliethree said:


> You picked the right dog for you and that is *all* that really matters. Isn't it?



I picked the BEST dog in the world ???


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

I first want to say thank you all for complimenting my bear. He is my heart dog 
Secondly, I can't see many of the posts here. The only reason I see the post by Brave is because somebody quoted it. There are several more I can't see without it being quoted also. Strange !
When I am out with Thor I get A LOT of comments on his color (good not bad). Many think he is a Great Pyrenees and are shocked he is a GR. I explain he is a light gold in color. Actually as he grows he is getting a gorgeous gold color woven all over. He looks like a pile of glistening gold. 
I am learning more about the "English gold" thing. As many people here know, Thor's daddy was a product of English gold coloring $ mark up. 
Thank you for all your kind words 








Who can resist this face !!!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

My new puppy Sailor is very light. She was white the day I brought her home, but now at twenty weeks, she has a creamy gold color. She is American lines and both her parents are medium gold. 

My breeder did tell me that because of her color, we will have to be choosy in who we show under for judges, and might even need to do some UKC shows.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

laprincessa said:


> I've been told that Max can't be pure Golden because he's:
> a) too blonde
> b) too curly
> c) too big
> ...


Add "too cute" to that!!!


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

jennretz said:


> Add "too cute" to that!!!


Max say "fank u beweee mush"

He's such a rock star.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Your Thor is beautiful.

I've never seen a white golden before, most of the ones I see in my area are the Reds or real dark goldens.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Shellbug said:


> In reading the boards I notice white goldens is generally looked down upon. Is this true ?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Haven't read the thread but I want to address the OP...

I wanted a dark dark dark golden because I LOVE the richer colour. However, that's just a personal preference, just liek I prefer vanilla and chocolate over strawberry ice cream. Just a preference.

And....to add....I adored my border collie Cassie. Who was solid white with one black ear, black toe nails, and a Cindy Crawford black beauty mark on her muzzle.

So.....you won't get a stink eye from me. Especially ecause your white golden probably has got little white eyelashes, and my Cassie turned me into soft set Jello with hers.....


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Let me put it this way, I don't have any issue with these white dogs that otherwise look and act like golden retrievers existing, and I don't have any problem with pet owners who choose a puppy or a dog with that look because they prefer white fur. I just don't consider those dogs golden retrievers, that's all. They don't meet the definition. But there are tons of nice dogs who aren't golden retrievers in general, and tons of nice people who prefer dogs that aren't golden retrievers in general, and the golden retriever-like white dogs are more like goldens than most other breeds or mixed breed dogs.

There's also the complication that sometimes you can breed two golden retrievers and get a white furred puppy. My dog's fur is so much to the red end that I've had several people come up to me and ask me if he's an Irish Setter, but one of the dozen or so siblings he had was creme colored (the rest were closer to his color). It's one of those genetic anomalies that sometimes just happens, because the white goldens do meet the English breed standards, and that's where all the world's golden ultimately trace their ancestry to.

Truth be told, if I hadn't been able to find my dog or another "real" golden at a price I could haggle down to affordability when he was a puppy, and someone had offered me a very inexpensive white "golden retriever" who's parents were both certified goldens, and I liked the dog and got along with him, I probably would have taken it. The fur color is secondary to the personality and other breed attributes for me. But I'd have expected a deep discount for accepting a dog that technically was not part of any breed, like I would for a golden retriever-labrador mix or something. 

In reality, that hypothetical would likely never have happened, because some people specifically breed for white goldens and actually charge a premium over real goldens for them, and the occasional white golden that's born in a litter of dogs who have fur colors in line with the breed standard usually goes quickly. In fact, when I picked out my dog, his white sibling had already been pre-selected by another buyer.

So, I guess I'm in the middle here. I don't see anything wrong with someone wanting a non-standard colored dog from golden retriever stock (I could even see circumstances where I might have one as a pet if a regular golden were unavailable to me for whatever reason), but I'd consider it something pretty close to a mixed breed dog of some sort with a lot of golden retriever attributes, and kind of scratch my head over these "specialty breeders" who go for that look and charge a premium.

I guess I'd give those breeds more credibility if they got together and really worked on figuring out what this whole white "golden retriever" thing is about and split out a separate breed with it's own breed standards and certifications. Call them "White Retrievers" or something with their own AKC registry. You know, really get things together instead of doing what they are doing now.


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## Capt Jack (Dec 29, 2011)

I've never had anyone openly say Sweetie wasn't a Golden because of her color. I have had lots ask me about the color difference between her & Jack. I always try to explain it the best I can & have used the "English" term a couple of times but not as much anymore. Anybody who looks down on a Golden because of it's color isn't worth my time anyway. It's not the color it's the breed.


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## mayapaya (Sep 28, 2011)

Lilliam said:


> I wanted a dark dark dark golden because I LOVE the richer colour. However, that's just a personal preference, just liek I prefer vanilla and chocolate over strawberry ice cream. Just a preference.


I actually was partial to darker golden's at one time also, because my first girl was darker. But these two stole my heart.....

I get the occasional stranger asking me what kind of "dogs" they are. :doh:

They are all Golden to me!


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## Capt Jack (Dec 29, 2011)

Golden999 I'm not trying to start a argument but are you saying your Golden is pure but another from the same litter isn't because of its lighter color?


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Golden999 said:


> Let me put it this way, I don't have any issue with these white dogs that otherwise look and act like golden retrievers existing, and I don't have any problem with pet owners who choose a puppy or a dog with that look because they prefer white fur. I just don't consider those dogs golden retrievers, that's all. They don't meet the definition. But there are tons of nice dogs who aren't golden retrievers in general, and tons of nice people who prefer dogs that aren't golden retrievers in general, and the golden retriever-like white dogs are more like goldens than most other breeds or mixed breed dogs.
> 
> There's also the complication that sometimes you can breed two golden retrievers and get a white furred puppy. My dog's fur is so much to the red end that I've had several people come up to me and ask me if he's an Irish Setter, but one of the dozen or so siblings he had was creme colored (the rest were closer to his color). It's one of those genetic anomalies that sometimes just happens, because the white goldens do meet the English breed standards, and that's where all the world's golden ultimately trace their ancestry to.
> 
> ...


 
So are you admitting that you don't consider your own dog a "real" golden retriever if it's redder colored? It's not a desirable color according to the AKC, just like white.


They're all the same breed, no matter the color. I mean how could you consider a dog not a "real" golden retriever if it was from the same litter as other "real" goldens. They have the same parents. I guess this just isn't at all logical to me. I don't have a white or cream colored golden but I just find this statement ignorant and offensive.


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

I don't think I would go as far to say a light golden isn't a real golden retriever. Thor's parents are both golden retrievers. He's just really light and bathed in golden splashes. 


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

All I know is I want a dark red golden. Can you imagine how beautiful my dogs would be together. Nah, I would love a red but I would take any one who matched our family. I just have golden fever ! 


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## Capt Jack (Dec 29, 2011)

Shellbug said:


> All I know is I want a dark red golden. Can you imagine how beautiful my dogs would be together. Nah, I would love a red but I would take any one who matched our family. I just have golden fever !
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I understand but always liked two toned LOL


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> He spends all day trying to be the best dog he can.


I love this!!


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

Capt Jack said:


> I understand but always liked two toned LOL



Gorgeous ! I absolutely love the toe together. I daydream about having a dark golden in my home. They are stunning 


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## Capt Jack (Dec 29, 2011)

Shellbug said:


> Gorgeous ! I absolutely love the toe together. I daydream about having a dark golden in my home. They are stunning
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


All Goldens are stunning yours is beautiful !!!


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## ktkins7 (Jul 20, 2013)

Golden999 said:


> Let me put it this way, I don't have any issue with these white dogs that otherwise look and act like golden retrievers existing, and I don't have any problem with pet owners who choose a puppy or a dog with that look because they prefer white fur. I just don't consider those dogs golden retrievers, that's all. They don't meet the definition. But there are tons of nice dogs who aren't golden retrievers in general, and tons of nice people who prefer dogs that aren't golden retrievers in general, and the golden retriever-like white dogs are more like goldens than most other breeds or mixed breed dogs.
> 
> There's also the complication that sometimes you can breed two golden retrievers and get a white furred puppy. My dog's fur is so much to the red end that I've had several people come up to me and ask me if he's an Irish Setter, but one of the dozen or so siblings he had was creme colored (the rest were closer to his color). It's one of those genetic anomalies that sometimes just happens, because the white goldens do meet the English breed standards, and that's where all the world's golden ultimately trace their ancestry to.
> 
> ...


This doesn't make sense to me. With your logic, if there is any single way at all that a dog doesn't meet the breed standard then it is a different breed. For example, if the dog is too short or too tall for breed standards your saying is a different breed even if both parents are both purebreds of the same breed. How can you have a dog from the same litter be a different breed? I don't get it. 

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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

kwhit said:


> Thank you. Yes, he is very special.
> 
> He'll be 10 years old on September 27th, his Gotcha Day. At least that's the birthday I gave him. The people that gave him to me gave me false vet records. They were for a German Shepherd...I found out through the number on the rabies tag. :no:
> 
> He came from a HVB that charges an arm and a leg for their dogs. They usually have 60-70 puppies available at any given time. Crazy...:doh:


Well, he is absolutely gorgeous! People are such odd balls! Anyway, all for the best because he has a great home and obviously lots of love. Three cheers for Chance!!!!!


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Well, my husband often teasingly tells Max, who barks ferociously at anyone coming up our driveway but loves them up when they get out of their cars, that a "real" dog would protect the house better. 
Now I guess I gotta go home and tell him he's an imaginary dog after all.

But it's okay, because his darker gold brother is real. I know, maybe Max was his brother's imaginary playmate! Yeah, that explains it!


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

laprincessa said:


> Well, my husband often teasingly tells Max, who barks ferociously at anyone coming up our driveway but loves them up when they get out of their cars, that a "real" dog would protect the house better.
> Now I guess I gotta go home and tell him he's an imaginary dog after all.
> 
> But it's okay, because his darker gold brother is real. I know, maybe Max was his brother's imaginary playmate! Yeah, that explains it!



lol silly Max! ?


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Can I correct something that is being said over and over in this thread? These are not "white" Goldens, they are very light cream colored Goldens. IMO, there is no such thing as a white Golden. They may seem white, but put them next to a breed that is truly white and you'll notice the difference right away. 

I've mentioned this before that Chance stood next to a Samoyed at my shop once and there was a definite difference in their coat colors. Even though Chance is _extremely_ light, he is definitely not white and next to that Samoyed, it was pretty obvious. 

Just wanted to put that out there...


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Thank you. 
Max is actually quite gold, but I've seen some that are very very light. 
And they're just as much a Golden Retriever as any very very red dog.
It's just nonsense to think otherwise.


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

kwhit said:


> Can I correct something that is being said over and over in this thread? These are not "white" Goldens, they are very light cream colored Goldens. IMO, there is no such thing as a white Golden. They may seem white, but put them next to a breed that is truly white and you'll notice the difference right away.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly. Thor looks white but he is very much gold speckled. I love his light gold color. His siblings ranged from very light (like him) to gold. I did like his color and he was a very laid back puppy. All those things went into my decision to pick him. This wasn't a reputable breeder so I got to choose. Good people but not professionals. I don't like people thinking he came from a bad place. He didn't. All that to say he is gold lol







You can see he is light gold and gold mixed. Even as a 2 week old 


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Shellbug said:


> Exactly. Thor looks white but he is very much gold speckled. I love his light gold color. His siblings ranged from very light (like him) to gold. I did like his color and he was a very laid back puppy. All those things went into my decision to pick him. This wasn't a reputable breeder so I got to choose. Good people but not professionals. I don't like people thinking he came from a bad place. He didn't. All that to say he is gold lol
> View attachment 377393
> 
> You can see he is light gold and gold mixed. Even as a 2 week old
> ...


Oh............my heart just melted and made me go all gooshy
Adorable!


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

laprincessa said:


> Oh............my heart just melted and made me go all gooshy
> 
> Adorable!



I have puppy fever ! Bad ! If I didn't just spend a fortune on my carpets (after Thor's potty training) I would so be looking into a puppy. Ahhhhhh puppies !!! 
? I say that but Thor isn't even a teen yet. Let me get through that first lol. 


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I'm grateful for friends with dogs of various ages, I get to play with all of them - and not deal with the teenage years again!


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I am grateful for my friends who don't judge dogs by color. While Bear is not a PUREBRED, he is very much a TRUE golden retriever. The only difference is his coat color. 


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Brave said:


> I am grateful for my friends who don't judge dogs by color. While Bear is not a PUREBRED, he is very much a TRUE golden retriever. The only difference is his coat color.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


amen, sistah, amen


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## Deber (Aug 23, 2011)

KWit you described our light colored Goldens so well! This is the way my two are, more of a true cream when next to a white breed. 

I understand that color in a breed standard also fluctuates as the years go by. If I look at old pictures of the Goldens I can see that their size and coats have changed a lot as people changed their breeding practices for certain things they wanted. Certain colors, coats, types, style all evolved to what is in fashion today. Know that in America the lighter colored Goldens (which are common in many countries) are being sold for higher prices because of "color". People are not willing to research, thus pay this crazy prices. 

Honestly I love the light color of my Goldens, but did I specifically "pick" them? No as they were both without homes and I was honored to become their new Mom. Would I have "picked" a more colorful Golden? Yes, because I love the darker colors. Are mine "less" golden because they are light? No! Honestly they are absolutely beautiful dogs and though lighter than most goldens in my area this makes them unique and gives me a chance to explain the vast color shades of our breed.

The difference is that mine are Pets, not show, and I understand and appreciate that our breed has a standard and show dogs should exhibit the best to this standard.


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## Katduf (Mar 10, 2013)

Golden999, you continuously use the term 'real' golden to the excluding of the very light coloured GR's in your post. If I may correct you, a pure bred golden retriever is a golden retriever, regardless of the depth of colour in the coat. 


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## Hale21 (Apr 17, 2014)

Even though my puppy's name is Loki, I don't think he'd mind me saying that there isn't anything wrong with creme colored Goldens or Thor  There is a four month old creme colored Golden named Spencer in my neighborhood. He is one of the nicest looking dogs I've seen, and they love to play. I really do like the creme colored Goldens and the redder ones


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

ArchersMom said:


> So are you admitting that you don't consider your own dog a "real" golden retriever if it's redder colored? It's not a desirable color according to the AKC, just like white.


He's more of a reddish gold, really, versus pure red. He's well within the color charts I've seen for the breed. If color were all I were choosing for, I might have selected with a more yellow sunshine type gold hue, but I was selecting predominantly for personality, and he was the dog that came up and played with me and stuck around out of the ones that were still available to be selected. I get lots of compliments on the way he looks. He's frequently compared to the Bush's bake beans dog.  I wouldn't trade him for any other dog, he's part of the family.

I think folks may be misunderstanding me to some degree. I am not saying these white furred dogs that occasionally pop up in golden litters or are selectively bred for are bad dogs, or that people are wrong to desire dogs with white fur. I'm just saying it's a deviation from the breed standard and not really what the term golden retriever is correctly used to describe in this hemisphere. That doesn't mean they aren't awesome dogs. I might even own one someday. There's nothing wrong with a white furred dog. I just think if people are going to start breeding for "white golden retrievers", they should seek a new breed classification that suits the dog they're breeding, the same way black labradors and yellow labradors are considered two different breeds, and there is a movement to create a third chocolate labrador classification for labradors with a brownish hue.

I worry that we sort of water down the definitions of breeds a bit as we start broadening the scope of breeds. Like, if we say white dogs can count as golden retrievers, what about dogs that are only 40 lbs as adults? Or 125 lb dogs? What about dogs without the characteristic fur texture? And so on and so forth. I mean, at some point, breeds become pointless if no distinctions are made or criteria are set. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with a dog that doesn't meet the criteria, or even a mixed breed dog or whatever. They can be great pets, too. It's just a matter of categorization. It's part of how people can in a broad sense have some idea of what they are getting in a pet- if they desire to (Some people like the randomness of mixed breed dogs, which is fine).

I mean, if you really want a golden retriever to play with your kids, you wouldn't want a dog breeder to hand you a pit bull or a rottweiler. And people looking for a pit bull or a rottweiler probably wouldn't be happy if they were handed a golden retriever. Breed standards help people find the dog that's right for them and gives them some idea of what to expect from a dog. If you find a breed you like, you can keep going back to that well and use the short-hand of a breed designation to find a similar breed to replace him or her with when he or she passes away. Or you can look up information on a different breed and find one that seems suitable and then go visit those dogs.

I'm not sure we want a future where there is just one dog breed known as dog and it's completely luck of a draw what genetic traits the dog might have in terms of appearance, behavior, personality, size, and so on and so forth. There are always mixed breed dogs available for those who want that, but I like that there are specific breeds for people who want specific things in a dog as well. If that specificity is something we value, than we need to preserve definitions. Saying a dog doesn't meet the breed standard doesn't mean it's not a great pet, it's just preserving the breed standard by sticking to the classification that's been set up.


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## gldnboys (Mar 15, 2012)

Golden999 said:


> . I just think if people are going to start breeding for "white golden retrievers", they should seek a new breed classification that suits the dog they're breeding, the same way black labradors and yellow labradors are considered two different breeds, and there is a movement to create a third chocolate labrador classification for labradors with a brownish hue.


This comment is totally false. Black and yellow Labrador Retrievers are one and the same breed, and you see both colours competing against each other in the show ring, at the breed level. Please make an effort to get your facts straight, at the very least.

Oh, and BTW, chocolate Labs are also one and the same breed. There are no different classifications with respect to colour, nor are any in the works.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

gldnboys said:


> This comment is totally false. Black and yellow Labrador Retrievers are one and the same breed, and you see both colours competing against each other in the show ring, at the breed level. Please make an effort to get your facts straight, at the very least.


Thank you for this. I know lab breeders that specifically stay within their color of choice (i.e. yellow) and won't stud to another color, but regardless they are all Labrador retrievers.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hmmm.... how about if people just breed dogs to standard and call it a day. 

http://www.grcc.net/?q=node%2F549



^ This dog is an AKC CH. 

He's probably not everyone's cup of tea, but he is a golden retriever (purebred). 



This dog is an AKC champion, and yes - he is also purebred despite being lighter boy. And he was lighter when he was younger. I remember. I saw him being shown around here. 

I've heard of people who are trying to get a split in the breed so they don't have to travel all over the country to get to shows or judges that favor the style of dog they breed, but honestly... there's bigger problems then that. 

Buy puppies from good breeders. Don't buy puppies from backyard breeders or puppy mills. And where it concerns X dogs where breeders simply focus on getting them lighter and lighter - you have a lot of cwappy puppy mills and backyard breeders behind these dogs. <- It's ridiculous discussing dog shows or so on with some of these dogs.

@labs - there are three acceptable colors. Yellow, Black, and Chocolate. They are all in the same ring together at shows. Read the breed standard.


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## gldnboys (Mar 15, 2012)

Yes, and some breeders do breed black to yellow as well, which typically gives some pups of each colour. (I find colour genetics fascinating, since that's one thing we don't deal with in Goldens!)


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Golden999 said:


> I just think if people are going to start breeding for "white golden retrievers", they should seek a new breed classification that suits the dog they're breeding, the same way black labradors and yellow labradors are considered two different breeds, and there is a movement to create a third chocolate labrador classification for labradors with a brownish hue.
> 
> Breed standards help people find the dog that's right for them and gives them some idea of what to expect from a dog.
> 
> If that specificity is something we value, than we need to preserve definitions. Saying a dog doesn't meet the breed standard doesn't mean it's not a great pet, it's just preserving the breed standard by sticking to the classification that's been set up.


You may want to spend some time getting to know the breed standards. It is fascinating to study them. 

First, you will see there is one Labrador breed with three colors black, yellow and Chocolate. Chocolate is not new, nor needing a movement to create it. Labrador Retriever Page

Second, an interesting thing is that breed standards are open to a fair amount of interpretation. Take for example the GRCA/AKC standard "rich, lustrous golden of various shades... Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable." 
What you consider extremely pale and I consider extremely pale might be different. There are some things that are easily pointed to like full dentition, hight requirements and ratio of proportion that are fairly quatifiable but how do you know if a skull is slightly arched? Ask different people and they will have a different picture in their minds eye.

Finally, though "white" gets thrown around a lot, it is genetically impossible for a Golden to be white if parentage is purbred Golden. They are in fact very light cream which in the majority of the rest of the would including the UK, where the breed originated is acceptable. The UK standard "Any shade of gold or cream, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only, permissible."
https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/standard.aspx?id=2047 .The Candian standard http://www.grcc.net/files/club_documents/GRCCIllustratedBreedStandard.pdf also does not penalize cream.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I'm finding it very difficult to understand why someone would consider a lighter colored, or bigger, or smaller, Golden Retriever to be the equivalent of a totally different breed of dog. If someone handed me a cocker spaniel and said it was a Golden, I think I'd know the difference. If someone said to me, "I know my dog is out of breed standard, but both parents are pure bred Golden Retrievers" I would not for a moment think that they didn't have a dog that was indeed a Golden. 

Max has papers, which might not be worth much, but he has them, that state that both his parents were pure Golden. Anyone who thinks he's not is entitled to that opinion, but they'd be wrong.


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## Hale21 (Apr 17, 2014)

Megora said:


> @labs - there are three acceptable colors. Yellow, Black, and Chocolate. They are all in the same ring together at shows. Read the breed standard.


What about Fox Red? I love Fox Red labs.

Edit: Fox Red is considered Yellow.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hale21 said:


> What about Fox Red? I love Fox Red labs.


That isn't a color listed in the breed standard. I believe it falls under a shade of yellow (the accepted shades are light cream to fox red).


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

Everything I read about goldens personality describes my dog. I have even noticed he is "birdy". I like to use that word, as I see it on the forum a lot in the field threads. I would LOVE to take part in field work sometime in my life, so I read all the threads. Anyway, I have noticed Thor is birdy ! It's petty cool. So he matches all the descriptions, he looks just like a gold golden retriever. Yet he isn't a golden lol. Shhhh don't tell him. He would be devastated ?


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

Megora said:


> Hmmm.... how about if people just breed dogs to standard and call it a day.
> 
> http://www.grcc.net/?q=node/549
> 
> ...



That is exactly the color of Thor. Love these pictures. 


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Hale21 said:


> What about Fox Red? I love Fox Red labs.
> 
> Edit: Fox Red is considered Yellow.


I always think about how lucky I would be to find a perfect lab who just happens to be fox red, alongside my redheaded MaxyMax.

But just like Max, I wanted the darker colour, but I wouldn't choose *only* based on colour. Health first, temperament second because behavioural problems can be fixed and a reputable breeder would only breed true to type and so would breed for temperament as much as for conformation, then colour, then sex. That was my hierarchy of what I wanted.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

My sister Betty and I have reddish hair. My sister Nancy and my sister Janet both have very dark brown hair. My sister Michele is completely gray - which is amusing because she likes to tease me about my weight.

Soooooooooooo, which of us is NOT a true Lee? That's the question! If we're judged solely on hair color - then Betty and I lost all claim to that family name. 

Darnit, that's the side of the family that likes me!


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## Capt Jack (Dec 29, 2011)

English Cream Golden Retrievers | The Golden Retriever Club of Canada
Enough said!
Thanks Conquergold for this post


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## ilovesandwich (May 1, 2013)

Shellbug said:


> In reading the boards I notice white goldens is generally looked down upon. Is this true ?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Don't worry about this! It's stupid. Your dog is your dog, and he/she is your love. People can gripe about lineages or papers or labels, but at the end of the day, those people are silly. Enjoy your golden!


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> He's more of a reddish gold, really, versus pure red. He's well within the color charts I've seen for the breed. If color were all I were choosing for, I might have selected with a more yellow sunshine type gold hue, but I was selecting predominantly for personality, and he was the dog that came up and played with me and stuck around out of the ones that were still available to be selected. I get lots of compliments on the way he looks. He's frequently compared to the Bush's bake beans dog.  I wouldn't trade him for any other dog, he's part of the family.
> 
> I think folks may be misunderstanding me to some degree. I am not saying these white furred dogs that occasionally pop up in golden litters or are selectively bred for are bad dogs, or that people are wrong to desire dogs with white fur. I'm just saying it's a deviation from the breed standard and not really what the term golden retriever is correctly used to describe in this hemisphere. That doesn't mean they aren't awesome dogs. I might even own one someday. There's nothing wrong with a white furred dog. I just think if people are going to start breeding for "white golden retrievers", they should seek a new breed classification that suits the dog they're breeding, the same way black labradors and yellow labradors are considered two different breeds, and there is a movement to create a third chocolate labrador classification for labradors with a brownish hue.
> 
> ...


I find it somewhat curious that you take this stance so strongly when you frequently admit on the forum that you chose a breeder based on who would give you the bargain basement price you wanted and not based on the quality of their breeding stock. 

I suppose we could study some pictures of your dog and you could tell us his height, weight, length, etc and we could pick out all the ways he doesn't meet standard (I'm willing to bet there'd be plenty to choose from since he's not a prolific stud with a GCh designation) and we'll vote on whether or not we think he is a golden retriever... but that would be pointless because of COURSE he is a golden -- both his parents were. The distinction/criteria/category you are looking for is genetic. 

125 lb or 40 lb dogs are not within standard, neither are dogs that are 28 or 14 inches at the withers, neither are certain colors or dogs with large white or black blazes in their fur. These dogs shouldn't be bred because they don't exemplify the ideal... but they're still golden retrievers as long they were produced by two goldens.

Let me reiterate that -- If the parents are golden retrievers, the offspring are golden retrievers. Regardless of quality, color, depth of pigment, whatever... genetically they are golden retrievers. Your posts in this thread make it very clear that you have very little idea how breeds are classified, how different colorations are handled within breeds, or how breed standards work. To suggest that a littermate to your dog isn't a "real" golden retriever because he's not the color you prefer just dumbfounds me. :doh:

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Jersey's Mom said:


> I find it somewhat curious that you take this stance so strongly when you frequently admit on the forum that you chose a breeder based on who would give you the bargain basement price you wanted and not based on the quality of their breeding stock.
> 
> I suppose we could study some pictures of your dog and you could tell us his height, weight, length, etc and we could pick out all the ways he doesn't meet standard (I'm willing to bet there'd be plenty to choose from since he's not a prolific stud with a GCh designation) and we'll vote on whether or not we think he is a golden retriever... but that would be pointless because of COURSE he is a golden -- both his parents were. The distinction/criteria/category you are looking for is genetic.
> 
> ...


I really wish I could thank you for this more than once.


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## jacindanbrown (Jan 23, 2012)

*No Stink Eye in 'hood*

We have an English Creme Golden and we get complimented everywhere we go. It takes forever to walk him because he gets so much attention. No stigma here. He is serious one of the most beautiful dogs I've ever seen (I'm not partial, ha!). Sometimes people ask if he's half lab/half golden, but that's about all I think we get some stigma because he's not a "rescue," although he had 4 homes before us... people just like to judge others, don't take it personally. English/American/Creme/Golden... all are wonderful dogs and great additions to any family, I can't imagine our life without him.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

The English Golden retriever can be very light cream color according to FCI European standards and have been around and long as Golden Retrievers have been around. I would hardly say they are "designer dogs". 
I have had all color Goldens...I now have three of the lighter color but have loved them all! Golden owners know what it is to have these wonderful dogs no matter the color. 
P.S. I do show my dogs successfully in international shows.


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## Shan (Jan 20, 2014)

Well, this is how I see it. There are two standards for golden retrievers in the world. Akc and kc. Americans go by AKc and the rest of the world kc. White golden's belong the standard followed by the rest of the world.


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## linnie81 (Feb 29, 2012)

*Cream Golden*

One of the best things about a white or cream Golden is that they don't get ghost faced after 6 years old. My Isabella is 10 years old!


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

luvgldn said:


> The English Golden retriever can be very light cream color according to FCI European standards and have been around and long as Golden Retrievers have been around. I would hardly say they are "designer dogs".


This is a little misleading, the color cream was added in 1936. Historically, the photos I see of Goldens are dark, some darker than would acceptable today. 

There is some speculation that cream was added to indicate light gold and not the extreme cream we see a lot of today. 

Personally I don't really care what color a dog is if they fall in the gold color spectrum as long as they are well built. 

It does bother me to no end when I see a dog that is structurally deficient to a painful degree, again no matter the color.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

According to the Kennel Club Standard it states only a few white hairs.

Goldens are not considered white. There may be some very pale creams but white goes against the standard.



Golden Retriever Breed Council

*Colour* Any shade of gold or cream, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only permissible. From 2000, only Cream, Gold or Golden will be accepted by the KC on registrations.


To the original poster......

Since I am not a judge in the ring I see your dog just as beautiful as both of my dogs.


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## donner (May 27, 2013)

I have a white golden named Finnegan. I don't find he gets the stink eye. In fact I have had people offer to buy him from me because he is so handsome. The breeder that I bought him from is very reputable and did not charge more because of his colour. He was the only one white in his litter.

Before Finnegan, we had Donner who was a toasted marshmallow golden.


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## Shan (Jan 20, 2014)

dewmist star of blue hope - world champion 2012

Yeah, ppl who think white golden's aren't proper goldens are wrong.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Shan said:


> Bluemist star of blue hope - world champion 2012
> 
> Yeah, ppl who think white golden's aren't proper goldens are wrong.


But see... This dog is NOT white IMO.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Genetically goldens CANNOT be WHITE as in a bichon, maltese, samoyed, kuvasz, etc.


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## R2dawgs (Aug 18, 2013)

*Gemma & Chase*

I haven't noticed any stink eye but we don't show our dogs. Every where we go people either ask what kind of dog she is or is that a golden??


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## Shan (Jan 20, 2014)

kfayard said:


> But see... This dog is NOT white IMO.


As has been pointed out earlier. That is as white they're going get


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## Karat (Mar 7, 2012)

Here in Russia, light goldens are really well received. Our 2 creamy white goldens are successful in shows, too. They are all just lovely-of whatever shade.


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## NewfieMom (Sep 8, 2013)

This is purely anecdotal, but I have seen far more light colored Goldens in recent years than when I was a child. When I was young, Goldens were rust colored. Now I see a huge number of "blonde", fluffy dogs. In my opinion these dogs look more "glamorous". When I see a red dog like the one I used to own it reminds me of, "the old days".

I love all dogs. I not only love all Goldens, who have bouncy, bubbly personalities combined with gentleness. I also love other breeds. My Newfie doesn't have the exuberance of a Golden, but I adore him for his infinite gentleness and loyalty.

As other posters have said, the idea of blaming a dog for his coat color is bizarre. My last dog, a pedigree yellow Lab the color of the very light Goldens pictured here, would have been out of standard for his breed due to his huge *size*. But it wasn't *his* fault!!! 

I think the world would be a better place if people would just love dogs for their "insides" although I *truly* understand wanting certain breed characteristics in one's dog!!! I want that, too.

Newfiemom


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## AngieAvenue (Mar 17, 2013)

I don't get any negative feeling from people on this forum about the colour of dogs... never. There is often debate about calling them 'English Creme' and all that silliness. 

Logan, I'm sure, is as 'light' as they come. He has a light creamy colour. All his CKC documents say he is 'light golden.' 

Frankly, he's my dog and I think he's gorgeous and he's my sweet little man. I don't intend to show him... so, for me, who cares? If some dog council (...I'm a noob to this haha) decides he's not standard some day down the line, I'm not going to love him any less! 

Most people around here ask me if I'm 'sure' he's a golden. Lots of 'I've never seen a white one before' and then another handful ask if he's 'a rare type of golden'... whatever that means


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## JBG (Feb 14, 2011)

Ripley16 said:


> I think that the issue a lot of people have with "English Creme" or "White" goldens is not because of their colour, but because of the stigma that comes with the designer colour and the breeders who try to capitalize on the prestige of the reputation of the "English Creme". ***********
> 
> No one should look down on a white golden, because the breed has a wide range of acceptable colours with white being one of them. It's the breeders who try to squeeze you for more money is what I have a problem with!


Do white goldens have the same disposition? I have heard they are ferocious. Is that true?


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## FriesianFury (May 2, 2014)

I dont look down at any colour of goldens....might be cause mine is black lol guess he stayed in to long and got burned . I find all what seems like "50 shades of gold" is a beautiful outcome on an golden. I also am not involved in showing so my comment in invalid.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

JBG said:


> Do white goldens have the same disposition? I have heard they are ferocious. Is that true?


Oh, yes! Horribly ferocious...especially with small animals! Hide your cats and small dogs, people! 

Warning! Graphic pictures below...


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## LIDDLEMAR (Aug 3, 2013)

then I guess I should get the stink eye for him being "too rusty"


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## texasx96 (Mar 13, 2013)

kwhit said:


> Oh, yes! Horribly ferocious...especially with small animals! Hide your cats and small dogs, people!
> 
> 
> 
> Warning! Graphic pictures below...



That's just how they lure them in. Common practice for a predator. 


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

texasx96 said:


> That's just how they lure them in...



Yep. And then, after they've all fallen asleep...

DUN-DUN-DUN!!!


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## ByallAcres (Apr 22, 2014)

*White Goldens*

I have a Light Golden dog that is a beautiful specimen of the Golden Retriever standard. He is the product of 2 Gold AKC Titled Golden Retriever dogs, but his Great Granddog was the same color as our Tobi. When we go to AKC events - everyone comments on how beautiful the dog is and rarely is his color mentioned.

I have had him evaluated for confirmation and got rave reviews. His Great Granddog is a AKC Champion. There are many people out there that think the Dark Golden's are a cross between and Irish Setter and a Golden. They obviously don't know how to research pedigree's. 

A friend of mine had more trouble titling a Dark Golden than a Light Golden. My last litter of puppies was a cross between a Gold Golden and British Creme Golden and the puppies all came out Light Golden - not white. We made this breeding decision because the British Creme dog has a great personality, good bloodlines, and is a beautiful dog. 

Any breeder that breeds for color and money should not be an approved breeder - we are supposed to breed to improve the breed. I don't even think charging more by sex is an appropriate action for breeders. Anyone who looks down on any Golden for it's color should be prayed for.


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## ByallAcres (Apr 22, 2014)

Love your Flat Coat!


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## Capt Jack (Dec 29, 2011)

kwhit that's too funny!!!


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## Angelica (Dec 16, 2012)

*Why I chose an English Golden*

Hi Everyone, this is actually my first post...and I wanted to respond to this because it touched my heart. Before deciding on Angelica, I did a lot of reading on the differences between American Goldens and English Goldens. I read articles that talked about differences in temperament and likelihood of developing cancer including the anticipated life span. All the reading I did led me to believe that the temperament of the English Goldens were more of what I was looking in a companion. My goal was not to 'show', although her lineage and being pick of the litter would have made it possible. My goal was to have a wonderful loving companion who I could train to be a therapy dog. (I am a mental health therapist). I can't speak to stink eyes, or anything else. I can say I visited with both American Goldens (of all colors) and Angelica (due to cost and what felt like integrity of the breeder), and my heart opened most with Angelica...THAT was my final decision...love.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

So they are like completely different breeds then? Bred to different standards when it comes to temperament? Good times. ?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Angelica said:


> Before deciding on Angelica, I did a lot of reading on the differences between American Goldens and English Goldens. I read articles that talked about differences in temperament and likelihood of developing cancer including the anticipated life span. All the reading I did led me to believe that the temperament of the English Goldens were more of what I was looking in a companion.


And this is what drives my crazy about this discussion. They are all Goldens and no matter the color have the same foundation, the same basic health issues, and generally the same temperament. Though I acknowledge that there are different temperaments with in the breed, this has to do with the individual dogs and the line not the style. The fact that there is so much misinformation and blatant miss-representation on this topic that as we go forward more and more people trying to make an informed decision are lead to believe falsehoods is plain aggravating. 

Are there differences between American and European Style Goldens, Yes. It is not however that temperaments are drastically different or are cancer free. It is more about the aesthetics of the structure of the dog like the head that is different. Color has nothing to do with the differences between these two styles.

You will find calm, hyper and shy American style goldens. You will find both calm, hyper and shy European style goldens. You will find American goldens suffering from early death cancers. You will find European style early death cancers. 

I don't think any puppy owner should ever be made to feel that whatever style or color they choose is a bad, wrong or less than desirable dog. Everyone is going to have a preference as to what they like the 'package' to look like. Wether that is American Show style, European Show style, American Field style, European Field style, the American/European Blend Show style or the many other styles out there it should not matter because at the end of the day they are all Golden Retrievers, that is what is on their registration and that is why we are all on this forum, our common love of Goldens.

When it comes to breeders I do expect them to be honest, ethical, and put their dog's health as a top priority by health testing and waiting to breed until the appropriate age. The reason "white, cream, and platinum" dogs are suffering from bias is because the bulk of the breeders of this style in the USA are not doing what is the bare minimum of reputable breeding and are commanding huge prices by misleading folks with bogus claims.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I posted these pictures in another thread, and since this thread keeps coming up, I think this would be a good place to post it to. I tried to find tried to find two boys in similar positions and of similar color. From the pictures in the next two posts, Can you can identify the English Champion?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Do you think it is this one? Let's call him Boy A.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Or is it this one? Boy B.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Both are very nice and very exemplary of their respective styles. They are also both a good example that different styles can and do happen while still displaying excellent breed type. Both are obviously Golden Retrievers.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

*How about this one? 

The "win picture" would be a 2 year old. I looked him up a while back out of curiosity after seeing pictures of him - he's usually handled by somebody I know . He is American bred - his breeder is out in Colorado. His dad is an AKC CH and his mom has agility titles and her pedigree goes back to MACH titles, as well as AKC CH's. He does not as of yet have any AKC points, but I believe he is owned by a Canadian. He does have a Can CH. 

Going back behind the mom, his grandsire is an Australian CH - and likely where he gets that lighter coloring from. 

But look at his structure and coat. This is a very well bred golden and a lot of care went into breeding him to standard. Coloring is one difference, but he will darken up or possibly has (this picture was from a year ago). 

This follows up with what I said on the other thread (Blizzard one). You have a lot of people out there who are using English lines in their breeding, and have for many years. Difference is they are paying attention to breed standards (AKC) and making sure that what puppies they produce fit within that standard. Particularly if they themselves are involved with conformation. 

This is good.

Problems with the most recent fad and all of the terrible misinformation that you have out there... is you have people who are truly pushing to create and/or promote something that does not fit within the AKC standard. And I'm referring to those who deliberately seek divisiveness. Even to the extent of some of these breeders pushing for a split in the breed in the AKC (creating a separate breed and breed standard to be shown in AKC). And you also have some breeders promoting some rather poorly bred dogs as exceptional - just because they or their parents were imported and are guaranteed to be "white" with blocky heads or whatnot. And they feed a lot of the fabrications about cancer and so on. A lot of this is why people get frustrated and irritated when this comes up. 

The other picture, btw.... is a one year old pup handled by the same person as the other dog. Who as far as I know (did not look up every single dog in his pedigree) is all American lines. Looks a smidge lighter than in the picture... but beat my boy at one show... :

Again, look at the structure and coat. This is a dog bred to breed standard - and is a very nice little boy, I might add.


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## Katduf (Mar 10, 2013)

Over here in Australia the term English golden is never used. The majority of Goldens here are mid gold to very pale gold. The darker red golden's are much rarer here. But they are all simply referred to as golden retrievers, never 'classified' according to colour.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Katduf said:


> Over here in Australia the term English golden is never used. The majority of Goldens here are mid gold to very pale gold. The darker red golden's are much rarer here. But they are all simply referred to as golden retrievers, never 'classified' according to colour.


It seems to be a purely American thing to want to create these random labels.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Last week saw an English style golden from a "breeder" in the area. Friendly enough, but totally hyperactive...recommended obedience training ASAP. Certainly not more calm than the "American Goldens" I own...


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## alphadude (Jan 15, 2010)

No stink eye here. As far as I'm concerned, they all ALL golden retrievers. My belief is that within the breed, there are two distinct lines, field and conformation. 

The only thing that irritates me is when the owner of an 'English cream' looks down their nose at one (or both) of my guys. I had the unfortunate experience of being lectured on the superiority of English Creams over American GRs to which I replied, well then I guess Ax didn't get the memo.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

alphadude said:


> No stink eye here. As far as I'm concerned, they all ALL golden retrievers. My belief is that within the breed, there are two distinct lines, field and conformation.
> 
> The only thing that irritates me is when the owner of an 'English cream' looks down their nose at one (or both) of my guys. I had the unfortunate experience of being lectured on the superiority of English Creams over American GRs to which I replied, well then I guess Ax didn't get the memo.


I was the one that started the Blizzard White golden, when I told the woman that my dog and the darker med golden in class ( my dog's litter mate had English lines in them one generation back ) she gave me the funniest look and was in disbelief.

My breeder brought in the English lines to bring back the older style look. Again, all still within standard.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Megora said:


> How about this one?
> 
> The "win picture" would be a 2 year old. I looked him up a while back out of curiosity after seeing pictures of him - he's usually handled by somebody I know . He is American bred - his breeder is out in Colorado. His dad is an AKC CH and his mom has agility titles and her pedigree goes back to MACH titles, as well as AKC CH's. He does not as of yet have any AKC points, but I believe he is owned by a Canadian. He does have a Can CH.
> 
> ...


The one on the right is absolutely stunning!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

LJack said:


> Do you think it is this one? Let's call him Boy A.


He looks a lot like a Cedar golden retriever from European lines.


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## JBG (Feb 14, 2011)

alphadude said:


> No stink eye here. As far as I'm concerned, they all ALL golden retrievers. My belief is that within the breed, there are two distinct lines, field and conformation.
> 
> The only thing that irritates me is when the owner of an 'English cream' looks down their nose at one (or both) of my guys. I had the unfortunate experience of being lectured on the superiority of English Creams over American GRs to which I replied, well then I guess Ax didn't get the memo.


Is it at all true that white goldens have a more ferocious disposition than yellower ones?


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

NO! Just ask our European and Australian forum members with the really light goldens. 
Where do people come up with that stuff?


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

cgriffin said:


> NO! Just ask our European and Australian forum members with the really light goldens.
> Where do people come up with that stuff?


Ignore that poster, check out his/her previous threads, majority revolving "vicious" goldens.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

This is somewhat amusing to me....the AKC people telling us that we are WRONG to create a standard that has been there for years! The "English Golden" people acting like they have a superior class/breed. OMG! really? 
I know many AKC breeders that show AKC and they are some of the meanest most petty people out there! Why? well first because showing AKC goldens of any color is very political. Second is because the AKC breeders are not happy about their competition. Why do "English" golden people want a separate class? BECAUSE THERE IS A DIFFERENT BREED STANDARD FOR ENGLISH GOLDENS. AKC has a choice....embrace the "English golden" standard or act like they are now. This is not a "fad" dog and they will keep growing as long as there are ethical breeders out there. And I promise you, there are as many unethical breeders of American Goldens out there as there are English goldens.
I resent the insinuation that it is only English goldens that are not reputable!! I have owned both types of goldens...seen character flaws in both due to poor breeding. I have purchased American goldens from breeders who's parents are both champions...those dogs had issues. 
maybe instead of being so political at the show level, we should encourage fair competition and education for all golden owners! that way we will have less issues and less people who purchase goldens and fail to do the slightest obedience training and socialization! "so and so's golden is so hyper" well that is probably because the do not do the exercise, training and enrichment the dog needs to be balanced!
If we keep arguing about the color and style of golden and who is superior, we will not get anywhere.
I do have three "English" goldens...I do show them in international venues....we promote friendly competition and help each other. we do not ridicule each other and act superior. We do not HIRE handlers and pay thousands to make sure we have an IN with a judge. And we do not breed to create an AKC standard rather to improve the line and produce sound balanced pups. We do all of the health clearances and I would NEVER promote a cancer free dog.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

*My puppy at 9 months old*

My European born pup


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

luvgldn said:


> This is somewhat amusing to me....the AKC people telling us that we are WRONG to create a standard that has been there for years! The "English Golden" people acting like they have a superior class/breed. OMG! really?
> I know many AKC breeders that show AKC and they are some of the meanest most petty people out there! Why? well first because showing AKC goldens of any color is very political. Second is because the AKC breeders are not happy about their competition. Why do "English" golden people want a separate class? BECAUSE THERE IS A DIFFERENT BREED STANDARD FOR ENGLISH GOLDENS. AKC has a choice....embrace the "English golden" standard or act like they are now. This is not a "fad" dog and they will keep growing as long as there are ethical breeders out there. And I promise you, there are as many unethical breeders of American Goldens out there as there are English goldens.
> I resent the insinuation that it is only English goldens that are not reputable!! I have owned both types of goldens...seen character flaws in both due to poor breeding. I have purchased American goldens from breeders who's parents are both champions...those dogs had issues.
> maybe instead of being so political at the show level, we should encourage fair competition and education for all golden owners! that way we will have less issues and less people who purchase goldens and fail to do the slightest obedience training and socialization! "so and so's golden is so hyper" well that is probably because the do not do the exercise, training and enrichment the dog needs to be balanced!
> ...


Can you share some names of these reputable breeders, that are completing all clearances as recommended by the GRCA? The one you mentioned on an earlier thread sold a male to a BYB and that dog despite having been bred prior to sale and was of age did not have clearances.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

Who did I mention and what is a BYB?


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Golden Acres and BYB is backyard breeder--in this case breeding Eastern European light colored goldens for profit without clearances.

Also these Intl Champions aren't competitive, let's not a fun win be confused for a real AKC or KC championship.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

My first question would be...why did this BYB purchase a dog without clearances?? Especially if they were going to breed???

best in show goldens in MO is a good breeder. 
(it is funny I know most of the breeders by name rather than their kennel name...)
I can get some more if needed


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

LOL! when is the last time you went to an international show?? It is growing in competition. We had over 50 goldens at our show in Mo this year. from all over the country. We also brought in a judge from Spain who was amazing.

PS we all have to start somewhere. Our show venues are few and far between...does not make them "less" and there are MANY AKC breeders that are also unethical. People need to do their homework no matter the type of dog they purchase. 
Do you really thing there are no AKC breeders out there selling sub par dogs to unsuspecting people??


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

"Also these Intl Champions aren't competitive, let's not a fun win be confused for a real AKC or KC championship. "

Spoken by a true AKC snob


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## NewfieMom (Sep 8, 2013)

luvgldn said:


> We do all of the health clearances and I would NEVER promote a cancer free dog.


I do not think you meant to say this. You are saying that you would never "promote" (whatever you mean by that) a dog that does not suffer from cancer.

NewfieMom


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

luvgldn said:


> My first question would be...why did this BYB purchase a dog without clearances?? Especially if they were going to breed???
> 
> best in show goldens in MO is a good breeder.
> (it is funny I know most of the breeders by name rather than their kennel name...)
> I can get some more if needed


Sorry for the confusion, golden acres a breeder you support as reputable bred this male without full clearances as recommended by the GRCA and then sold him so he continue to be used as a stud. This is why so many are frustrated with breeders touting English Cremes as they're talking the talking but not walking the walk.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

You are probably correct I did not say that right..I just mean I would not advertise that my pups will never get cancer...or that the chance of cancer is less than that of an American golden


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

luvgldn said:


> My first question would be...why did this BYB purchase a dog without clearances?? Especially if they were going to breed???
> 
> best in show goldens in MO is a good breeder.
> (it is funny I know most of the breeders by name rather than their kennel name...)
> I can get some more if needed


Looked at one litter and didn't make it past the mom who is not even 2 yrs old so final hip and elbow clearances don't exist, practitioner heart clearance vice cardiologist--sorry but not acceptable


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

I believe I posted about The Golden Acres as an "in my experience" with the breeder. That does not mean I do or do not support them. I have pups from him...they all have passed with flying colors...my experience was a good one. I cannot speak to other's experiences.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

So you say this is an "English" golden issue???


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

luvgldn said:


> So you say this is an "English" golden issue???


It's an issue for any breeder who is breeding to a fad and touting clearances that just aren't there nevermind the fact that they're charging outrageous prices for the quality of dogs being sold.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

luvgldn said:


> I believe I posted about The Golden Acres as an "in my experience" with the breeder. That does not mean I do or do not support them. I have pups from him...they all have passed with flying colors...my experience was a good one. I cannot speak to other's experiences.


So each has an ofa elbow clearance, cardiologist cleared heart and has an ophthalmologist eye exam? There's another thread discussing pen hip vice ofa.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

Yes. my girls have all of their clearances...One has only OFA only because I was not educated enough at the time and went the less stress route on my dog...
My other girl has a 90% PennHip


The pup I bought from an American breeder had hip problems at 2 years old!! both parents champions!


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

These dogs are not a "Fad" they have been around for decades.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

as far as pricing pups...we are in line with the American Golden breeders in my area. I would imagine you would know the costs that go into raising Goldens and pups....
I also have contact with all my puppy families and they know I am here for any problems. now or in the future.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

luvgldn said:


> Yes. my girls have all of their clearances...One has only OFA only because I was not educated enough at the time and went the less stress route on my dog...
> My other girl has a 90% PennHip
> 
> 
> The pup I bought from an American breeder had hip problems at 2 years old!! both parents champions!


You do understand pen hip doesn't do elbows right? As such they should both have ofa. Championships don't equal health--no one here as ever implied that. Just because 2 dogs have championships does't mean they are compatible nor does it mean they should be bred.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

UHM DUH! yes I do know that PennHip does not do elbows...and they both have OFA clearances also.
I am just curious why you have such a thing for the English goldens....you seem to really be spending a ton of time discrediting anyone you can..


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I know many AKC breeders that show AKC and they are some of the meanest most petty people out there! Why? well first because showing AKC goldens of any color is very political. Second is because the AKC breeders are not happy about their competition. Why do "English" golden people want a separate class? BECAUSE THERE IS A DIFFERENT BREED STANDARD FOR ENGLISH GOLDENS. AKC has a choice....embrace the "English golden" standard or act like they are now. This is not a "fad" dog and they will keep growing as long as there are ethical breeders out there. And I promise you, there are as many unethical breeders of American Goldens out there as there are English goldens.
> I resent the insinuation that it is only English goldens that are not reputable!! I have owned both types of goldens...seen character flaws in both due to poor breeding. I have purchased American goldens from breeders who's parents are both champions...those dogs had issues.
> maybe instead of being so political at the show level, we should encourage fair competition and education for all golden owners! that way we will have less issues and less people who purchase goldens and fail to do the slightest obedience training and socialization! "so and so's golden is so hyper" well that is probably because the do not do the exercise, training and enrichment the dog needs to be balanced!
> If we keep arguing about the color and style of golden and who is superior, we will not get anywhere.
> I do have three "English" goldens...I do show them in international venues....we promote friendly competition and help each other. we do not ridicule each other and act superior. We do not HIRE handlers and pay thousands to make sure we have an IN with a judge. And we do not breed to create an AKC standard rather to improve the line and produce sound balanced pups. We do all of the health clearances and I would NEVER promote a cancer free dog.


^ This speaks for itself and follows exactly what I said. 

I am friends with really GOOD breeders who breed English line (actual English line) goldens and do stuff (field, obedience, conformation) with them. This is showing in conformation (Canada), getting full clearances on their dogs, maintaining relations with other REALLY GOOD breeders producing what they want in a golden retriever, and they are there to help people getting started with training and showing their own dogs. One of these breeders in particular who is no longer on this forum by choice has been a huge help to me as far as me learning how to handle my own dog. 

There are some real "winners" out there as far as English line breeders who are barely reputable who I honestly can't stand, but there are also certain breeders in US and Canada who are very good breeders. And there have been. 

With international shows - I have friends who use this for fun, especially with young dogs.... and you can get titles with minimal effort. That is why they do not HIRE handlers. Same thing with conformation in UKC. Though one note about UKC in more competitive areas... you may definitely have some really new people doing a dog shuffle when they have more competition in the ring. This is handing dogs to more experienced handlers to get a better chance at winning. It seems silly, but I've seen people do that. 

AKC you are not required to hire a handler to show, but most do because it is very difficult to get points and majors on dogs when showing them yourself. There could be a huge cost savings in hiring a professional handler vs doing it yourself in that a professional handler with an outstanding dog will be able to title that dog within a few shows and minimal time. I've been told 4-5 shows with a pro would probably get a CH on my golden. My breeder has even been pushing me to do minimally 2 shows with a pro to get a huge chunk of his points. 

Showing my dog myself, it will probably take me a couple years. Which I'm OK with because I enjoy showing my own dog, but most people are not as into dog showing. Probably a good case of that was the gag face my breeder pulled when I jokingly asked her if she was going to get a GRCH title on her 15 month old now that they got the CH (5 shows). 

As far as paying thousands to have an IN with a judge - I have no clue what that means. Unless you mean paying thousands for a handler.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

luvgldn said:


> This is somewhat amusing to me....the AKC people telling us that we are WRONG to create a standard that has been there for years! The "English Golden" people acting like they have a superior class/breed. OMG! really?
> I know many AKC breeders that show AKC and they are some of the meanest most petty people out there! Why? well first because showing AKC goldens of any color is very political. Second is because the AKC breeders are not happy about their competition. Why do "English" golden people want a separate class? BECAUSE THERE IS A DIFFERENT BREED STANDARD FOR ENGLISH GOLDENS. AKC has a choice....embrace the "English golden" standard or act like they are now. This is not a "fad" dog and they will keep growing as long as there are ethical breeders out there. And I promise you, there are as many unethical breeders of American Goldens out there as there are English goldens.
> I resent the insinuation that it is only English goldens that are not reputable!! I have owned both types of goldens...seen character flaws in both due to poor breeding. I have purchased American goldens from breeders who's parents are both champions...those dogs had issues.
> maybe instead of being so political at the show level, we should encourage fair competition and education for all golden owners! that way we will have less issues and less people who purchase goldens and fail to do the slightest obedience training and socialization! "so and so's golden is so hyper" well that is probably because the do not do the exercise, training and enrichment the dog needs to be balanced!
> ...


Well, I am going to take a different track here. 
Have you really compared the two Standards? I mean word for word, section by section? Are there differences? Yes, most notably the GRCA Standard specifically penalizes extremely light or extremely dark dogs and KC favors a smaller dog at 20-22 vs 21 1/2-22 1/2 for bitches and 22-24 vs 23-34. Other than that IMO they are very similar. Yes, the GRCA standard is more specific to the KC which leaves much more for the reader to infer but, so is the CKC version under which European dogs like those at Kyon do well. I am of the opinion that American dogs in meet the UK standard as European dogs meet the GRCA Standard. I see many different styles pass the CCA. 

Now, does meeting the standard equate to a Championship or being competitive? No and IMO nor should it. I believe a Championship should be an indicator of superior attributes in a breeding dog. But, as it is the subjective opinion of expert dog people, they will take those written standards and form their own image of ideal. So, as the countries have breed independently, they have each as a whole moved toward a certain style and this is always in flux. Do I think my girl would place in the UK? No, but I understand why, it is not that she lacks quality or is undeserving in anyway, but simply a different style, one they don't see over there So, I would have several options. 

I could compete anyway and IMO overtime some judges would begin to see the merit in my dogs. 
I could breed toward the current winning style and likely achieve moderate success with a blended look. 
I could decide to forgo the breed ring and prove my dogs through an alternate path like Obedience where at least other competitors, breeders and puppy buyers could see them and start to appreciate them.
I could try to find like minded individuals to create a new organization, breed, or standard where I could compete a successfully. Of course existing breed and organizations will shun my accomplishments and work because it did not happen with in the existing competition structure that has been accepted for years. Right or wrong it will an does happen no matter what kind of competition you are talking about, think about skiing vs snowboarding.
I could throw in the towel and rail at how unfair the whole situation is.

This same situation is happening here in the US. If you have a deserving dog, I challenge you to blaze the trail as others are doing and show in AKC it can be done. We have had an Australian import get the AKC grand championship and a Spanish import get the AKC championship. There are also breeders like this one who work predominantly with European pedigrees. Pedigree: Wingwatcher Get Down Tonight CDX RE WC VC CGC I had the pleasure of watching this boy finish with a specialty major and then take another specialty major the next day with this boy Pedigree: Wingwatcher Free Rein RE WC. European dogs can and do win in the US but that can't ever happen if they don't show. If you want to change opinion, don't sit back and say it is too hard, or people are mean, get out there and show them you have class, good sportsmanship and a deserving dog. It can be done!


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

How does that follow exactly what you said? 
And yes I meant paying for a handler.

My perspective on CH titles..I do not go to get the title. I go to get a professional evaluation as far as if my dog meets breed standard...The titles are just an added thing and A win over many other goldens is more my goal. Just because it shows my pups are great examples of the breed...I also do many other events with my dogs including obedience and ralley and Dock diving....my dogs are my babies. I will have a few litters with them but first and foremost they are my pets.

I think we need to acknowledge that there are many breeders out there that are either unethical or just do not know better. The consumer should always do their homework...ask questions and feel completely comfortable in purchasing a pup from whatever breeder they are choosing. This is across the board and is not and should not be considered breed specific.

I also think we are totally off topic in this thread.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

LJACK-
I do not think I am complaining about not getting a fair shake...I was just stating what my experience was and I DO get my girls out there all the time...
My point really is that the "bad breeder" issue is across the board and is not exclusive to the "English" Golden


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

luvgldn said:


> My European born pup


She is lovely and should end up a lovely light gold by the color in her ears. I hope you go back to IABCA or ICE to get her Adult Championship, try UKC and AKC. Once she is 18 months old try the CCA if you have one close, a lot of times specialties will. 

I would not think her color should hurt her chances with most judges. As she would in my opinion fall under this part of the standard. "Some latitude should be given to the light puppy whose coloring shows promise of deepening with maturity."


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

luvgldn said:


> as far as pricing pups...we are in line with the American Golden breeders in my area. I would imagine you would know the costs that go into raising Goldens and pups....
> I also have contact with all my puppy families and they know I am here for any problems. now or in the future.


So you're also a breeder. I will say matching your dock diving pic to an owner's name on k9 data shows 2 golden girls with incomplete clearances (missing elbow clearance, practitioner heart, no verifiable annual eyes) I do hope these are not girls you're breeding.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

Thank you. To be honest...I LOVE showing my girls! I do it for the fun of it and they also LOVE it It is just more enrichment for them. My baby is definitely more FCI breed standard other than AKC. I agree there are differences in the structure of the two. I respect the AKC breed standard and would not ask it to change...which is why I choose to not show AKC. I will try UKC eventually. it is always a juggle between dock diving competitions and dog shows. I am very proud of my girls...as every dog owner on this forum board is of their dogs  It does make me sad when us "English breeders" are grouped as being unethical. That is not the case for most breeders I meet at shows...To be honest, there are many of us out there really trying to breed the right way that is best for the breed. whether it is FCI breed standard or AKC it really a matter of taste and what each breeder is moving towards. neither is wrong or right.
Of course I will get her adult CH titles...Both of my other girls have a WBCH title...and both have a dock diving CH title.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

luvgldn said:


> My point really is that the "bad breeder" issue is across the board and is not exclusive to the "English" Golden



Have you taken a look around other threads here at GFR and you'll see we don't single out only English lines/breeders/colors as bad breeders. There is a plethora of breeder threads where knowledgeable members bring light to what is missing from potential pairings for those members who ask.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I think we need to acknowledge that there are many breeders out there that are either unethical or just do not know better. The consumer should always do their homework...


 Precisely. 

There are very good breeders out there who have goals in what they breed. They do have a "look" or style they prefer, but for the most part when it comes to showing in AKC - they are breeding for dogs who could be minimally competitive in AKC. And some of these breeders (including the ones I CAN'T STAND on the basis of them being obnoxious) get CH's on their dogs. 

But you need only browse various "English breeder" threads on this forum to see examples of breeders that are incredibly terrible in what they produce and how they keep the dogs. Literally puppy mills. From the worst there's breeders who keep the dogs like fat white goats (outside in muddy pens) and breed them every time they come in season and sell puppies for thousands.... and there's breeders who are full scale puppy mills.

And some of these breeders are "behind" the dogs who even more responsible minded but fairly naïve and new breeders are producing and that in itself is a mark against those puppies they produce. There's a breeder down in Indiana who I looked up out of curiosity since she does clearances on her dogs and is in good standing with the club in her area... but the pedigrees of her dogs have links to those puppy mills behind them. 

The rest of it is if you are not a known golden retriever breeder or having sufficient connections with really good and well known breeders overseas (Australia, UK, Sweden, etc), then odds are you are not going to get a puppy from these breeders.

The types of breeders who will sell and ship anything are not as likely going to be top of the line and/or good breeders producing good quality dogs.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

SHEETSSM-
K9 data requires the owner to manually enter all clearances....I have not entered them all in. Which brings up the point ...you CAN lie on that data! They DO have all clearances. 
What is the matter with you that you are harping on me so much??? 
YES! I am breeding these dogs but with all clearances....


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

luvgldn said:


> LJACK-
> I do not think I am complaining about not getting a fair shake...I was just stating what my experience was and I DO get my girls out there all the time...
> My point really is that the "bad breeder" issue is across the board and is not exclusive to the "English" Golden


Sorry, my misunderstanding. I read the ultimatum to the AKC to accept the English standard or keep acting as they do, which your shared experience seemed bad was in that vein.



luvgldn said:


> I think we need to acknowledge that there are many breeders out there that are either unethical or just do not know better. The consumer should always do their homework...ask questions and feel completely comfortable in purchasing a pup from whatever breeder they are choosing. This is across the board and is not and should not be considered breed specific.


Amen! There are tons of unethical breeders everywhere. Just spend a few moments in the choosing a breeder section and you will see that we as a forum do not make any distinction and talk about bad breeding regardless of style. The reason you see the focus on European dogs here is simply because of the title of this thread. 
I have never found what I would consider a reputable breeder sell their dogs as a 'special' or fad color. A bad breeder is a bad breeder wether they sell golden retrievers, blizzard white retrievers or American red retrievers. Although I will say that those last two, the blizzard white (or any variation) and the American red I already know before I get to the website or dogs, that the breeders are more likely than not a bad breeder.



luvgldn said:


> I also think we are totally off topic in this thread.


As these threads are always like to do. They also tend to be Frankenstein treads, monsters that rise from their graves repeatedly because this topic is very personal and very emotional. Someone will read this in in the future and feel compelled to add, usually based on their own experience or opinion. It is the way of these threads.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

luvgldn said:


> SHEETSSM-
> K9 data requires the owner to manually enter all clearances....I have not entered them all in. Which brings up the point ...you CAN lie on that data! They DO have all clearances.
> What is the matter with you that you are harping on me so much???
> YES! I am breeding these dogs but with all clearances....


Well aware of K9 data which is why I check offa.org--can't make up clearances that don't exist.
I'm protective of the breed having seen the results of dishonest breeding practices through my volunteer work with rescue. There's simply no reason to cut corners when it comes to breeding.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

You are correct that all the clearances are not showing up...not sure why the eye clearances are not there and now that I look at it one of my girls (who I am not breeding yet) probably got an OFA prelim on her elbows...But I need to look at my records for that


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Just a tiny thing here (just in general since people are reading this thread, not directed at anyone)... you should not breed on prelims. 

Preliminary clearances are not the same as final clearances. 

Preliminary clearances are reviewed by one person. 

Final clearances are reviewed by three people. 

With elbows being fairly objective (for grade 1 you are looking at very minute blurring), it's kinda better to have 3 opinions than just the one. 

Other thing is there was a breeder down in Indiana recently discussed on this forum as the dog bred on preliminary clearances failed the finals.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

luvgldn said:


> I respect the AKC breed standard and would not ask it to change...which is why I choose to not show AKC. I will try UKC eventually.


Which is sad to me as your girls likely meet the standard. Please do not mistake the standard for style. The standard is the written definition of a Golden but style is the standard being expressed through a breeders vision. 

Also UKC uses a modified version of the GRCA stand which actually specifically states cream is undesirable which the GRCA does not specify cream. 
From the UKC standard - "Color may be any shade of golden, but it must be rich and lustrous. Body color that approaches *cream* or red is undesirable. Some latitude may be given when judging a lighter-colored puppy whose coat shows promise of darkening with age. Feathering may be lighter than the rest of the coat, and lighter shadings extending upward from the underbody are typical and acceptable. These lighter shadings must not be confused with white markings. With the exception of graying or whitening of face or body due to age, any white marking, other than a few white hairs on the chest, should be penalized in proportion to its extent."

So, I guess my question to you would be why consider UKC if you don't want to do AKC? Why not try AKC. Like I said before judges can't award what is not in the ring.



luvgldn said:


> It does make me sad when us "English breeders" are grouped as being unethical.


I have never seen any bad talk about a breeder based on their style as you have expressed it above, like English Breed/style, European bred/Style, Field bred/style, or American bred/style. I think you are possibly feeling grouped with 'English Cream', 'British Platinum' , 'European White', etc. as long as you are an English Style Golden Retriever breeder who is meeting the requirements of reputable breeding, then don't group yourself with them. 

I know there are dogs in commercial breeding facilities that are of roughly the same style as mine but, I don't feel any connection to them, nor do I feel the desire to fight how they are perceived. There are many people out there who think any breeder is a bad breeder, I fight to show what I am, what my dogs are, I am not going to spend energy defending bad breeding practices no matter what style, breed or shape a dog is.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

You are correct unless I attempt to show AKC I will never really know.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

and I do not breed on prelims...this girl has not even been bred yet.....I just made the comment that it could be my mistake that I only did a prelim on her and need to check my records....GEEZ!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

luvgldn said:


> and I do not breed on prelims...this girl has not even been bred yet.....I just made the comment that it could be my mistake that I only did a prelim on her and need to check my records....GEEZ!


Hey you're the one that was emphatic that your girls all from one breeder who you yourself won't state is reputable had all of their clearances which is not true. One girl isn't even old enough and another is missing elbows and two have practitioner heart clearances not cardiologist. Just trying to educate.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

LOL! wow you are just brutal!!
and you are putting words in my mouth!


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

which one is not old enough? and old enough for what?


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Your 9 month old puppy Aug 14 photo, pup isn't 2 yrs old so hip and elbow clearances can't be done, not yet a year so a heart and eye clearance can't be done either. Page 14 I specifically asked if ofa elbows, annual eye and cardiologist cleared heart was accomplished and you replied yes, ALL girls have their clearances.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

Well of course I meant my two older ones. I was not misleading...I just figured everyone knew my baby who is only 11 months old has not been tested. STOP putting words in my mouth and trying so hard to discredit me. 
I am sure I still have much to learn but I do not deserve to be slammed here.
My whole point was that a lot of posts seem to be discrediting only the English golden breeders..in return I am getting slammed by you who is apparently stalking me (LOL) which is fine. But you can at least TRY to be a tiny bit nice.
I do realize the heart clearances are done by a practitioner...she is a very well know and respected VET here. You do not have to agree with it but you don't have to be so incredibly rude!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Check out the forum, you've picked one thread, there are very similar threads regarding red retrievers--if you're cutting corners and making false claims regarding clearances you will receive the same treatment. Hopefully, you'll stick around and learn before jumping into the breeding ring again. It's not about snobbery or jealousy or politics, it's about above board breeding practices that you can be proud of--this breed deserves our absolute best.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

WOW!!!! You cannot even acknowledge that you have been so rude!! You are not the only one out there that has a right to breed! You do not know me....or my ethics. You are going off of something that is not accurate for some reason and when I was wrong about a clearance I admitted it. And you will not bully me away. even though I am sure you have done that to others. and it certainly is about all of the above or you would not be so intent on bashing everyone you come across that you deem not worthy. You are a mean stalker judgy pants person!!!


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

luvgldn said:


> I do realize the heart clearances are done by a practitioner...she is a very well know and respected VET here. You do not have to agree with it but you don't have to be so incredibly rude!


Even though you are breeding a European line, since you live in the US and by default be held to the US standard for reputable breeding, I would recommend that you should have the hearts done by a cardiologist. A vet no matter how good, does not have the same training or expertise that a cardiologist does. Heart problems are in the breed and pair that with the fact that European countries are not routinely testing, I would think it would be even more important to you. 

I know that if I want to grouped with reputable breeders without question, I need to test for everything listed in the GRCA COE, I need to have it verifiable online and I need to prove my dogs in competition.

At this point it sounds like you have not breed yet. If you want to be reputable when you do, I suggest you make the same commitment I and other reputable breeders do. You are already most of the way, it is just a few more steps.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

luvgldn said:


> UHM DUH! yes I do know that PennHip does not do elbows...and they both have OFA clearances also.
> I am just curious why you have such a thing for the English goldens....you seem to really be spending a ton of time discrediting anyone you can..


No Ella does not have an OFA clearance, she has a preliminary clearance. Since she was 22 months old and got a Good, why not just get her hips done the same time you get her elbow films taken and send them both in. It looks as though she is 38 months old now so it seems to be as good a time as any.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

I will but she also has a Pennhip


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

Just curious, how did this all become about my dogs...who I am not even breeding??? seriously!!!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

luvgldn said:


> You are a mean stalker judgy pants person!!!


Now we're resorting to name calling? LOL. Should you breed another litter, keep in mind that educated puppy buyers are going to do their homework and not just rely on your word cause as has been demonstrated in this thread a breeder can state anything, such as clearances are complete when in fact they're not. That's not stalking.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

well I never have problems selling my pups.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

luvgldn said:


> well I never have problems selling my pups.


And here we go.....

For the record, Sheets has not been rude. Just stating facts.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

luvgldn said:


> well I never have problems selling my pups.


So that makes not doing complete clearances yet claiming you do an acceptable practice?


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## JBG (Feb 14, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> Ignore that poster, check out his/her previous threads, majority revolving "vicious" goldens.


I guess sarcasm doesn't come across well on the Internet. My apologies. I love the breed.


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## luvgldn (Jan 20, 2014)

OK, really not sure how this is all about my dogs. I commented on a post that had nothing to do with what you all are saying. The female I have bred does have clearances...honestly I have never checked offa.org so apparently I have to find out what happened.But you all do not make this a place to learn and enjoy this breed. You can actually state facts and be respectful like LJACK. But I feel very ganged up on here...hence my last remark said in defense.
Does it really look like I am trying to not do clearances...based on what you all have found out about me? Does it make any sense that I would do some/most clearances and not do others? Don't you all think that if I was really lying about clearances, I would not have done any? 
It really is ok to educate people, and if you have something to say....just be respectful when you say it.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

luvgldn said:


> well I never have problems selling my pups.


So have you bred before. 
Was that Belle with the deficient heart clearance and no verifiable eye clearance or Ella who has none of the core clearances other than a deficient heart clearance verifiable online?

If you have bred a dog that born after 1/1/2011 with out verifiable online clearances for hips, elbows, heart by a cardiologist and eye annually, then I am sorry as of now you are not meeting the definition of a reputable breeder in the US. Wether you sell puppies or not as nothing to do with the other. BYBs and commercial breeders sell all their puppies too.

I hope that you are still striving to learn. Yes, everyone has to start somewhere and not everyone has the best beginning. You can and I hope you do raise to the top as a reputable breeder in the future. Regardless of style, we need more good breeders. I am sorry you feel as though you have been singled out, it is overwhelming to have the eyes of pedigree and health certification researchers on your dogs especially if they turn up things that are not as they should be. This happens because we are passionate about the breed and good breeding practices. You obviously have a lot of passion as well. Take that passion and focus on your breeding program and moving forward by correcting the lack in clearances.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

luvgldn said:


> Does it really look like I am trying to not do clearances...based on what you all have found out about me? Does it make any sense that I would do some/most clearances and not do others? Don't you all think that if I was really lying about clearances, I would not have done any?
> It really is ok to educate people, and if you have something to say....just be respectful when you say it.


Well, the practitioner hearts as I stated earlier are concerning. I have heard of dogs who have been cleared by practitioners only to fail under Cardiologists. I have seen less then reputable breeders use them.

I chose to believe that you are trying but are still learning. On the other side of this issue there *are* many less than reputable breeders that will just do some, or if they fail a clearance not post it and breed anyways. As you pointed out earlier there are a ton of less that reputable breeders out there and the partial clearances are par for the course for them. So, the fact that your girls that are old enough do not have full clearances 'look' a lot like girls in those other breeding programs you want to distance yourself from.

Keep growing, push harder, learning, get more involved with other breeders (even outside your breed or style), get involved with your local breed or kennel clubs. In a few years time you will find that you have a different perspective.


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## AlanK (Jun 28, 2008)

Just thinking out loud but "please respect" and do the best within your comprehension of the phrase to be nice to one another. Just a friendly reminder of forum rules.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Just today I brought my 22 month old bitch in for her heart clearance. The regular vet never heard a murmur... Cardiologist did. Echo was done and luckily all was fine. This is why you do not do practitioner heart clearances.


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## ByallAcres (Apr 22, 2014)

*luvgldn*

Please do not let these mighter-than-thou Golden Retriever owners give you a hard time. We bought our first golden as a pet and when we took him to the vet - he told us we would not want to neuter the dog because he knew his parents, grandparents and great -grandparents. I followed all the rules. I trained my dog (he now has 8 titles including therapy dog) and had all his clearances done before considering breeding (this included a heart check with a cardiologist). His eyes have been checked each year and I authorized OFFA to publish negative results, which I know a lot of large breeders in my area don't allow. I went out on a limb and bought a beautiful young lady to breed with my sire that was from a large breeder that did not have clearances on both parents. I loved the dog and thought she needed a better life than to live in a kennel and breed for the rest of her life. I have had all her clearances done since I told myself I would before breeding, and she cleared with flying colors. We have had 3 litters so far over the course of 4 years and all seems well so far. I had a friend that spent $3000 on a beautiful golden with both parents having excellent hips and their elbows, eyes and heart cleared and ended up having a beautiful golden with MILD DYSPLASIA. There are no guarantees with or without all the clearances. I now own 6 goldens (2 just a year old so not breedable yet), but pick the dog I obtain with as much care and instinctive power I have. When your heart is with your dog's and in the right place -- ignore the crape hangers.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> There are no guarantees with or without all the clearances.


 Very true... which is why I would be very selective as far as who I purchase golden puppies from. Apparently speaking as a so-called "mightier than thou" golden retriever owner.... who is not in this to become a breeder.  

While I was in "search mode" for a puppy, I spoke with breeders who I really liked... one of them listened to what I said about clearances and my hopes for good hips and elbows, etc... with emphasis on needing a dog to jump his height for obedience.... and she sent me to another breeder who she said had more along the lines of what I was looking for. This is leaning on the actual knowledge of breeders who have been in the breed for a very long time. 

My youngest just had all his clearances completed and now has his CHIC number. His parents had excellent hips - and looking at his hips, I was beyond happy to see how nicely formed they were. I spoke with OFA on the phone and found that he had gotten one "excellent" nod while his grade was "Good". And this is something I couldn't be surprised over since I see him every day and see how active and agile the little guy is. This was something I had hoped for when I went with his breeders, and we discussed hips and elbows on that basis. 

Other thing is that as far as his eyes - he and his "brother" will definitely be going in to the eye specialist every year to get those eyes checked, and I will send in to OFA every year. So if there any cysts or oddities that show up, people can see exactly that. This means that if anyone looks up Bertie on OFA, those eye clearances will show up there - and every year.

Because you get those eye clearances from the eye specialist, not everyone sends them in to OFA to be listed on the database. Sometimes it is just an oversight, and sometimes there are specific reasons why breeders hold them back.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

ByallAcres said:


> Please do not let these mighter-than-thou Golden Retriever owners give you a hard time. We bought our first golden as a pet and when we took him to the vet - he told us we would not want to neuter the dog because he knew his parents, grandparents and great -grandparents. I followed all the rules. I trained my dog (he now has 8 titles including therapy dog) and had all his clearances done before considering breeding (this included a heart check with a cardiologist). His eyes have been checked each year and I authorized OFFA to publish negative results, which I know a lot of large breeders in my area don't allow. I went out on a limb and bought a beautiful young lady to breed with my sire that was from a large breeder that did not have clearances on both parents. I loved the dog and thought she needed a better life than to live in a kennel and breed for the rest of her life. I have had all her clearances done since I told myself I would before breeding, and she cleared with flying colors. We have had 3 litters so far over the course of 4 years and all seems well so far. I had a friend that spent $3000 on a beautiful golden with both parents having excellent hips and their elbows, eyes and heart cleared and ended up having a beautiful golden with MILD DYSPLASIA. There are no guarantees with or without all the clearances. I now own 6 goldens (2 just a year old so not breedable yet), but pick the dog I obtain with as much care and instinctive power I have. When your heart is with your dog's and in the right place -- ignore the crape hangers.


I was excited to see a new breeder actually doing clearances & actively competing with their goldens & then I checked out the last litter. While the dam owned by the breeder does have her clearances (assuming eyes just weren't submitted to ofa), she was bred to My Mozart is My New Hobby who only as hips listed on offa.org Orthopedic Foundation for Animals. Also litter 1 which was whelped Jan 11 was to a dam who wasn't 2 yrs old and thus didn't have complete clearances and a 2nd litter was whelped before hips & elbows were accomplished. So all 3 litters had gaps in clearances. I do hope the breeder doesn't adopt the attitude that since clearances aren't full proof that they're not necessary. As someone who is active in the rescue community who witnessed first hand on numerous occasions of what cutting corners can do to a golden, I do hope the breeder finds a mentor and continues to learn more and improve upon his/her breeding practices.


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