# Puppy Brothers Bad Fighting



## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

Hi Phil,

There's a fabulous trainer who works with reactive dogs in Nottingham, which I Googled and see is 2.5 hours from you, but you might want to reach out to her, and she can recommend someone near you. Her name is Denise Cadelac Mcleod. This is the FB page for her training facility: https://www.facebook.com/cadelacdogtrainingandbehaviour/

She developed a training method for reactive dogs that she calls Turn and Face - here is the FB page for that: https://www.facebook.com/Turn-and-Face-1509278632484838/

I am friends with her on Facebook on her personal page and became aware of her through Denise Fenzi, many months ago.

I understand that your wife is reluctant, but perhaps you need to be very blunt, that this could morph into a situation where one of the boys may need to be re-homed if this isn't handled immediately. I do hope you'll reach out to Denise and see what and/or who she recommends for you. She seems to me to be very kind, and truly cares about the mental well being of your dogs (and you, as a result of dealing with reactive dogs). 

Please keep us updated.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I applaud you for realizing that although the breeder did both you and the puppies a huge disservice by selling them both to you, that it's going to be up to you to solve the problem. I'm sorry your wife is being difficult and I admire you for not giving up.

I'm impressed that you are being proactive and handling this NOW before they get any worse. Keeping them separated and training and playing with them one on one is very smart. The more chances they get to practice the bad behavior, the more ingrained it becomes. Please tell your wife that this absolutely will not get better and will only get worse. As mentioned above, if you all do not get help correcting this situation you will end up with two adult male dogs who will one day have a serious fight that can end with injury and the need to rehome one of the dogs. An absolute nightmare.

If your wife will not go with you, then you need to buy or borrow one or two crates and take the dogs by yourself to a trainer. If your wife won't help you will have to do this on your own. You can do it.

I hope you will share your experience here and let us know what happens so that you can help other people in the future who read this thread. There are a lot of people who have success raising two puppies at once, but there are just as many people who end up in a very tough situation with littermates and maybe your experience could help someone down the road. The fact that you are taking action now and didn't wait till they were a year old and had a very serious fight gives me hope that you can work through this. Good luck.


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## Our3dogs (Apr 3, 2008)

Best of luck to you, in what is a tough situation. As you know, this situation will not get better. It will only get worse. Hopefully at some point your wife might realize you could both end up losing both dogs, due to injury, etc. Have her think about what might happen if the dogs started fighting and another friend, visitor, etc. stepped in and tried to stop it and they were severely bitten themselves? This could expose you to a financial or legal problem as well. As Nolefan says - get 2 crates for the car to go to training classes. This way you know they are secure and you can safely drive to class. If you can do the private lessons, I would do it. Even if your wife does not wish to participate, could you schedule them during a time when she has agreed to run errands? This way you can start getting some instruction on how to handle the situation, and she is not forced to attend? Please keep us posted.


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## Neeko13 (Jul 10, 2010)

I feel your pain, my daughter and I have two boys from the same litter, they practically both live w me...they do play rough, being siblings, but if they get too agressive, we tell them to stop, and they do..they never really want to do harm to each other... you're situation is much worse..I wish you the best in fixing your situation...


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this problem, I know it's not what you expected at all. Definitely get into training with each of them individually. Your wife HAS to participate. If she doesn't participate in trying to manage this situation one of the dogs has to leave. It will take both of you. It should not all be on you. 

You can't really get help through the internet for this situation, you need a good behavior trainer in person to work with you.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your only real solution is to keep these two dogs separated, probably for life. If you want to prevent serious injury to them and to yourself, finding one a new home is the only way. 

I'm sorry if that's too harsh. I applaud you for not giving up, but when they are fighting as badly as you describe rehoming one is the best decision for the dogs.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Thank you so much for this, I will contact her today.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Thank you for understanding and for good advice, its very much appreciated.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Thanks again for your advice, I will print these off to show my wife.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Neeko13 said:


> I feel your pain, my daughter and I have two boys from the same litter, they practically both live w me...they do play rough, being siblings, but if they get too agressive, we tell them to stop, and they do..they never really want to do harm to each other... you're situation is much worse..I wish you the best in fixing your situation...


Thank you so much, all this advice gives me motivation and hope.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

mylissyk said:


> I'm so sorry you are dealing with this problem, I know it's not what you expected at all. Definitely get into training with each of them individually. Your wife HAS to participate. If she doesn't participate in trying to manage this situation one of the dogs has to leave. It will take both of you. It should not all be on you.
> 
> You can't really get help through the internet for this situation, you need a good behavior trainer in person to work with you.
> 
> ...



The internet is just a starting point to gather information, this forum has provided me with a good start. There is no good reason for quiting now, I have to try at least.
I cant change other people, the dogs are the important thing here.
I have heard of people in similar circumstances who have resolved the problem.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

I added 3 photos to the Gallery (Dylan and Jesse) , the fights lately have just suddenly erupted, they got on much better a few weeks ago. I have printed off all the replies I have recieved and I thank everyone for that. I will show my wife and hope she sees the problem. I will contact the trainer also.
Many Thanks
Phil


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

An update but not a good one.
I have been in touch with Denise Cadelac Mcleod and she replied which gave me a great deal of hope. Mrs Mcleod contacted me and said it it possible to resolve but she wanted a video of when the dogs meet and fight, then I was to phone her tomorrow, I was grateful and agreed to this. I told my wife about this and she said NO, she said keep them apart, I said that is not practical and that Jesse has 3 rooms and a garden to run in, Dylan only one room with me. I told her one of the dogs could kill the other and that would be her responsibility. But it made no difference. As I said before I cant change other people and buying two male puppies obviously isnt the only mistake I made in my life, but thats just something I have to deal with.
I am going to buy Mrs Mcleods book and DVD and work on my pup
Thanks again


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

See the trainer that Robin recommended who is driving distance from you- borrow or purchase two crates so you can drive there safely, and let her evaluate... and shy or not, your wife is going to put these dogs and your financial security in danger if she won't get on board with training- not only that, training is FUN and she might find it gives her a great outlet, with her dog, that she can participate in and direct and there is no one in a class scenario that will belittle or pick at her, it should be a safe zone for her and her dog. And your dog. This isn't something that can get a quick easy fix- it's a good thing you are cognizant of what's going on, and where it can go if not managed.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Freebird_UK said:


> An update but not a good one.
> I have been in touch with Denise Cadelac Mcleod and she replied which gave me a great deal of hope. Mrs Mcleod contacted me and said it it possible to resolve but she wanted a video of when the dogs meet and fight, then I was to phone her tomorrow, I was grateful and agreed to this. I told my wife about this and she said NO, she said keep them apart, I said that is not practical and that Jesse has 3 rooms and a garden to run in, Dylan only one room with me. I told her one of the dogs could kill the other and that would be her responsibility. But it made no difference. As I said before I cant change other people and buying two male puppies obviously isnt the only mistake I made in my life, but thats just something I have to deal with.
> I am going to buy Mrs Mcleods book and DVD and work on my pup
> Thanks again


Does your wife realize how serious this is? Even if keeping them apart works much of the time, it only takes one accidental door unlatched or careless visitor. She'd be traumatized all her life if she watched her dog kill your dog or vice-versa. .. or worse, watched a grandchild interfere and get killed or maimed. My next best thought if she's determined is to take her to dog be neutered asap.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

Freebird_UK said:


> An update but not a good one.
> I have been in touch with Denise Cadelac Mcleod and she replied which gave me a great deal of hope. Mrs Mcleod contacted me and said it it possible to resolve but she wanted a video of when the dogs meet and fight, then I was to phone her tomorrow, I was grateful and agreed to this. I told my wife about this and she said NO, she said keep them apart, I said that is not practical and that Jesse has 3 rooms and a garden to run in, Dylan only one room with me. I told her one of the dogs could kill the other and that would be her responsibility. But it made no difference. As I said before I cant change other people and buying two male puppies obviously isnt the only mistake I made in my life, but thats just something I have to deal with.
> I am going to buy Mrs Mcleods book and DVD and work on my pup
> Thanks again


At the very least, you need to call Denise back tomorrow as agreed to tell her what the current situation is with your wife. Does your wife ever leave to run errands, and do you have a trusted friend who can help you so that you CAN videotape them? 

Barring that, it's time to put your foot down with the wife. She is part of the problem (as you admit). Your dogs' lives DEPEND on you being their advocate. 

I don't understand why she wouldn't at least TRY to give Denise and her methods a try.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> See the trainer that Robin recommended who is driving distance from you- borrow or purchase two crates so you can drive there safely, and let her evaluate... and shy or not, your wife is going to put these dogs and your financial security in danger if she won't get on board with training- not only that, training is FUN and she might find it gives her a great outlet, with her dog, that she can participate in and direct and there is no one in a class scenario that will belittle or pick at her, it should be a safe zone for her and her dog. And your dog. This isn't something that can get a quick easy fix- it's a good thing you are cognizant of what's going on, and where it can go if not managed.


Without looking to be negative it isnt practical for me to drive there, Im carer to a 95 year old lady and have to be nearby.Without wishing to go into detail my wife is very aggresive about this, I believe she needs help but I will say no more. I cant take two pups as one belongs to her. As I have said I cant change someone else, she knows the consequences as all replies on here were printed out and given to her. There is a problem with my wife, please dont ask for details of her health, understand that people can be unreasonable. There is nothing I can do about her I have to do the best with what I have got. There are trainers near me in Essex but most say they are qualified but dont give details. I would prefer a KC registered trainer, I have met people who say they are trainers and obviously arent. I will keep looking. Thanks for your help.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> Does your wife realize how serious this is? Even if keeping them apart works much of the time, it only takes one accidental door unlatched or careless visitor. She'd be traumatized all her life if she watched her dog kill your dog or vice-versa. .. or worse, watched a grandchild interfere and get killed or maimed. My next best thought if she's determined is to take her to dog be neutered asap.


With respect I dont find the advice very helpful. I keep saying I cant change someone else, there is obviously a problem there. The dog is not mine remember.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

rabernet said:


> At the very least, you need to call Denise back tomorrow as agreed to tell her what the current situation is with your wife. Does your wife ever leave to run errands, and do you have a trusted friend who can help you so that you CAN videotape them?
> 
> Barring that, it's time to put your foot down with the wife. She is part of the problem (as you admit). Your dogs' lives DEPEND on you being their advocate.
> 
> I don't understand why she wouldn't at least TRY to give Denise and her methods a try.


I agree, I will contact Denise today as I can get an hours advice from her, initially I didnt think she could help as I can only deal with the one dog.
People keep telling me to put my foot down with my wife, I didnt want to have to spell it out, all I can say is bi-polar. That should tell you all you need to know.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

Hey there -- I'm sorry you are in this position. It's really, really hard when family interferes with the humane and appropriate care of animals in the home. I hope you can find a workable solution, and unfortunately it seems that is likely to mean rehoming the dog you do have control over for his safety and happiness. I hope you'll circle back if that's a decision you come to so we can hook you up with a good breed specific rescue, at your pup's age, they are so very adoptable  

Again, very sorry you are in this spot. It sounds so tough.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Mirinde said:


> Hey there -- I'm sorry you are in this position. It's really, really hard when family interferes with the humane and appropriate care of animals in the home. I hope you can find a workable solution, and unfortunately it seems that is likely to mean rehoming the dog you do have control over for his safety and happiness. I hope you'll circle back if that's a decision you come to so we can hook you up with a good breed specific rescue, at your pup's age, they are so very adoptable
> 
> Again, very sorry you are in this spot. It sounds so tough.



Thank you so much for understanding, I am determined to find a solution, I would rather rehome myself that the dog, I couldnt live with myself if I gave up.


Bi-polar goes in cycles, when the time comes and hopefully she is reasonable I can plan to get things sorted out then.


In the meantime me and Dylan are going to the woods for the day.


Thanks again.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

Freebird_UK said:


> Thank you so much for understanding, I am determined to find a solution, I would rather rehome myself that the dog, I couldnt live with myself if I gave up.
> 
> 
> Bi-polar goes in cycles, when the time comes and hopefully she is reasonable I can plan to get things sorted out then.
> ...


I sent you a private message, my friend. If you need help finding it: underneath the Golden Retriever Forums banner on your screen, you'll see some green text that says "Your Notifications". If you click that, the first option will be "Unread Private Messages".


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

This whole situation must be very stressful for you, your wife and the dogs. This is not a good way for you all to live happily. I know you are very attached to your dog but it seems that the best solution to this problem (which will likely continue for the rest of the 2 dogs' lives) would be for you to return your dog to the breeder. I know it feels like you are giving up, but think of the stress all this is causing to the dogs as well as yourselves. You already have a very difficult life as a carer and keeping harmony in the home.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

rooroch said:


> This whole situation must be very stressful for you, your wife and the dogs. This is not a good way for you all to live happily. I know you are very attached to your dog but it seems that the best solution to this problem (which will likely continue for the rest of the 2 dogs' lives) would be for you to return your dog to the breeder. I know it feels like you are giving up, but think of the stress all this is causing to the dogs as well as yourselves. You already have a very difficult life as a carer and keeping harmony in the home.



Im not a quiter and the dogs so far are not stressed, the dogs are a priority.
You dont know my life or how much I can deal with stress.

You cant make that judgement at a distance without complete information.
Im surprised and disapointed at your comments.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Freebird_UK said:


> I agree, I will contact Denise today as I can get an hours advice from her, initially I didnt think she could help as I can only deal with the one dog.
> People keep telling me to put my foot down with my wife, I didnt want to have to spell it out, all I can say is bi-polar. That should tell you all you need to know.


That's tough. My father had a short-timer wife once w BiPdisease. She went out and bought three new cars in one day and I can imagine how she'd react to someone telling her how to live with her dog in a problematic scenario during her season (which was Fall for her). I'm so sorry for the stress you must feel. ((HUG)) to you.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> That's tough. My father had a short-timer wife once w BiPdisease. She went out and bought three new cars in one day and I can imagine how she'd react to someone telling her how to live with her dog in a problematic scenario during her season (which was Fall for her). I'm so sorry for the stress you must feel. ((HUG)) to you.


Its like Devil and Angel and it switches. I have to remember she isnt enjoying it either. I have recieved good advice, support and encouragement from this forum which has been helpful and its much apprecieted.


Rabernet suggested that I contact Denise McCleod one of our top trainers and I just finished a long phone conversation with her which was so helpful and motivating. https://www.cadelac.co.uk/ I now have a plan and feel I understand thigs much better.


Thanks again


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

Freebird_UK said:


> Its like Devil and Angel and it switches. I have to remember she isnt enjoying it either. I have recieved good advice, support and encouragement from this forum which has been helpful and its much apprecieted.
> 
> 
> Rabernet suggested that I contact Denise McCleod one of our top trainers and I just finished a long phone conversation with her which was so helpful and motivating. https://www.cadelac.co.uk/ I now have a plan and feel I understand thigs much better.
> ...


I am so happy to hear that your call with Denise went so well and that you have an encouraging and positive supporter in your corner with you.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

I am reading this thread, my heart goes out to you, a difficult situation to be in. Management can work while the pups learn the skills you want them to have, what we refer to here is 'crate and rotate' and it is a commitment, but it can be done. It is extra work making sure the dogs get their individual needs for mental and physical exercise met, providing the opportunity to interact with other pups and learn appropriate social behavior from them, learn and practice dog communications skills, as well as how to respond appropriately to them, as well as exposure to mature, socially appropriate, puppy tolerant adult dogs, who will teach a pup the 'finer' skills of being a socially appropriate adult dog. 

Good to hear you have the opportunity to work with/speak with a professional trainer, with her guidance the chances that things can work out for all of you improves. It is a path that few choose to travel, nobody expects their journey with their dog to start out on 'the wrong foot', but all we can do is the best we can to learn and grow, take the opportunity to learn from the challenges that are presented to us, and hold onto hope that in time things will work out all right.

Wish you all the best on your journey with your pups.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Charliethree said:


> I am reading this thread, my heart goes out to you, a difficult situation to be in. Management can work while the pups learn the skills you want them to have, what we refer to here is 'crate and rotate' and it is a commitment, but it can be done. It is extra work making sure the dogs get their individual needs for mental and physical exercise met, providing the opportunity to interact with other pups and learn appropriate social behavior from them, learn and practice dog communications skills, as well as how to respond appropriately to them, as well as exposure to mature, socially appropriate, puppy tolerant adult dogs, who will teach a pup the 'finer' skills of being a socially appropriate adult dog.
> 
> Good to hear you have the opportunity to work with/speak with a professional trainer, with her guidance the chances that things can work out for all of you improves. It is a path that few choose to travel, nobody expects their journey with their dog to start out on 'the wrong foot', but all we can do is the best we can to learn and grow, take the opportunity to learn from the challenges that are presented to us, and hold onto hope that in time things will work out all right.
> 
> Wish you all the best on your journey with your pups.



Thank you so much for your advise and comments. The pups are an absolute priority, if the situation caused them stress I would not continue. As I mentioned before I have had 3 dogs of my own, the first a collie cross was a streetfighter, his family had him locked in a shed all day and let him out to roam and fight at night. I took him on at a year old and he became the most fantastic loyal dog who would walk by my side with no lead and never chased another dog. Some of it was me perhaps somehow but he really wanted to learn the rules, hes burried in my garden. The second dog I adopted at 5 years old, he had been left tied to a lampost when he was 2 and deserted, his second owners got divorced and couldnt care for him. He was too old to learn the rules but you could see how hard he tried to get it right but couldnt make it, he was a nightmare but I loved him. My third dog was a pedigree Golden and the guy in his family started kicking him around, he was brought to me to save him. When he arrived he would not come indoors and if you can understand what I mean he had no personality, he was blank. But in a few days he lit up and was an absolute joy, clever, loyal obedient and I think he wa smarter than me, he died 10 years ago and I still miss him, still remember how his big warm paws felt in my hand. So Thats why I have a Golden now, and thats why I would never desert a dog not matter what it takes as I have seen the damage done.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Freebird_UK said:


> Thank you so much for your advise and comments. The pups are an absolute priority, if the situation caused them stress I would not continue. As I mentioned before I have had 3 dogs of my own, the first a collie cross was a streetfighter, his family had him locked in a shed all day and let him out to roam and fight at night. I took him on at a year old and he became the most fantastic loyal dog who would walk by my side with no lead and never chased another dog. Some of it was me perhaps somehow but he really wanted to learn the rules, hes burried in my garden. The second dog I adopted at 5 years old, he had been left tied to a lampost when he was 2 and deserted, his second owners got divorced and couldnt care for him. He was too old to learn the rules but you could see how hard he tried to get it right but couldnt make it, he was a nightmare but I loved him. My third dog was a pedigree Golden and the guy in his family started kicking him around, he was brought to me to save him. When he arrived he would not come indoors and if you can understand what I mean he had no personality, he was blank. But in a few days he lit up and was an absolute joy, clever, loyal obedient and I think he wa smarter than me, he died 10 years ago and I still miss him, still remember how his big warm paws felt in my hand. So Thats why I have a Golden now, and thats why I would never desert a dog not matter what it takes as I have seen the damage done.


Bless your heart for rescuing those dogs, giving them the opportunity to live a good dog's life - sorry for your losses but what they have taught you will serve you well now and in the future. I agree, through good times and tough times we do love them, we do the best we can for them, no matter what and in return they give back so much more than we give them. I adopted a people fearful and dog reactive year old lab mix, can't say the journey has always been 'easy' but it sure has been worthwhile, he is still with me, he is such a beautiful soul. They come into our lives to teach us those things we cannot learn otherwise - they teach us so much, not just about them, 'who' they are, but about us, 'who we are' . 
Yes, I understand a 'shut down' dog, those empty eyes,yet holding out faint hope that things will turn out all right, and the joyof seeing them learn to trust again, understand they are safe, and that it is okay to live life the way a dog should always live it - full of adventures and joy. It is a journey one must travel to be able to truly comprehend how amazing it truly is.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

It is clear that you are in an extremely difficult situation. The pressure you are under from all directions is immense. It is also clear that you are a dog lover to the bone with a clear sense of conscience and commitment to responsibility. 

I know that you find it intolerable to think of finding Dylan a new home, but honestly it may be a case of life and death for him. If your partner is so aggressive and set in her ways about not helping you, I don't see how anything Denise says can help. It's going to take both adults in the home to manage and fix this. Keeping Dylan secluded in one room while the other dog has full run of the rest of your home and property sounds like it will result in Dylan having stunted mental growth, mental health and physical growth. 

The fact that your puppies are already displaying this truly serious fighting at 16 weeks is a clue that when they have hormones fully kicked in at ages 6 months and 12 months that your situation is going to be truly life threatening to one or both dogs. No one here is exaggerating the potential disaster you are setting up for those puppies. 

I know you are managing things now but there is no way that you will keep them separated for the next 10 years with no mistakes. The people who have posted trying to make sure you understand what a worst case scenario could really look like are not trying to be unkind or unhelpful, you're getting responses from some of the most experienced and kindhearted, helpful people we have on this forum. They have ZERO agenda other than trying to help you make this situation safe for the dogs and you. We all very much want to help you or we wouldn't be spending time responding to you.

You are obviously an experienced dog person with a good heart. I urge you to be sure that you are really putting Dylan's best interests first or your own wants and needs. If your partner won't help, it sounds like the best shot for Dylan at a long healthy and happy life would be to find a loving home for him NOW while he's still a puppy and would adjust easily to a new family. If the breeder is a decent human being she needs to know what is going on at your house so hopefully she won't repeat this mistake again in the future. I hold her 99% responsible for what you and those puppies are suffering through. She could be a resource for locating a good loving family if you made the choice to rehome Dylan before he ends up attacked and potentially dog reactive for life.


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## MitchP (Oct 29, 2017)

I too am sorry you need to be in this position. It is very difficult for people to live with and have to deal with a loved one with a mental health issue, but don't forget the fact that dogs are very perceptive to people and our emotions, and for them it can be very confusing when their owner is having ups and downs...they are getting mixed signals from their humans who may seem fine and happy one minute and not the next. I really don't have much advice other than hang in there, love your dog, and enjoy your time in the woods with him...get as much one-on-one time as you can with him, it'll be good for both of you.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Charliethree said:


> Bless your heart for rescuing those dogs, giving them the opportunity to live a good dog's life - sorry for your losses but what they have taught you will serve you well now and in the future. I agree, through good times and tough times we do love them, we do the best we can for them, no matter what and in return they give back so much more than we give them. I adopted a people fearful and dog reactive year old lab mix, can't say the journey has always been 'easy' but it sure has been worthwhile, he is still with me, he is such a beautiful soul. They come into our lives to teach us those things we cannot learn otherwise - they teach us so much, not just about them, 'who' they are, but about us, 'who we are' .
> Yes, I understand a 'shut down' dog, those empty eyes,yet holding out faint hope that things will turn out all right, and the joyof seeing them learn to trust again, understand they are safe, and that it is okay to live life the way a dog should always live it - full of adventures and joy. It is a journey one must travel to be able to truly comprehend how amazing it truly is.


Thank you so much Charliethree. Yes, like you, I learned so much from those 3 dogs, it was a real privilege to have known them. I agree with your comments, you put it so well. Yes 'shut down' exactly describes my rescue Golden and he did later give off vibes of joy.
I could go on about the magic of dogs but I might get a reputation of being weird, but you know what I mean.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

MitchP said:


> I too am sorry you need to be in this position. It is very difficult for people to live with and have to deal with a loved one with a mental health issue, but don't forget the fact that dogs are very perceptive to people and our emotions, and for them it can be very confusing when their owner is having ups and downs...they are getting mixed signals from their humans who may seem fine and happy one minute and not the next. I really don't have much advice other than hang in there, love your dog, and enjoy your time in the woods with him...get as much one-on-one time as you can with him, it'll be good for both of you.


Thank you Mitch P.


As I sit here my buddy Dylan is playing at my feet, he eats really well and we had a gret time in the woods, I have a long lead so he gets to run around and I always talk to him most of the way. He was ok in the car although its only a short journey. We take a break in the woods and we sit and listen , he has a biscuit or two and I always carry water. On the way back we called in to the old lady (my dear old mum) that I look after, hes met her before and seems to have an affinity for older people, he sat on her feet all through the visit. This afternoon we played ball in the garden. We have toys in here and he is very laid back and relaxed.


Jesse who is downstairs is doing fime, my wife has taken him for a long walk, hes eating well and he is more relaxed there days, we have a stroke and a chat and he is looking good and happy. My wife, in common with others with the same problems gets on better with animals than people when she is down, its a mutual thing and as far as I can see it benefits both.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

nolefan said:


> It is clear that you are in an extremely difficult situation. The pressure you are under from all directions is immense. It is also clear that you are a dog lover to the bone with a clear sense of conscience and commitment to responsibility.
> 
> I know that you find it intolerable to think of finding Dylan a new home, but honestly it may be a case of life and death for him. If your partner is so aggressive and set in her ways about not helping you, I don't see how anything Denise says can help. It's going to take both adults in the home to manage and fix this. Keeping Dylan secluded in one room while the other dog has full run of the rest of your home and property sounds like it will result in Dylan having stunted mental growth, mental health and physical growth.
> 
> ...



To all those whot keep telling me to quit or that I am damaging the dogs I dont need your negativity, it is not helpful, you cant judge this situation, me, my wife or our dogs, or what stress I can deal with.. As the situation changes I can modify what I do. If it isnt going right I will be the first to know and then I will have to deal with it.


I will prove you wrong!



Ok now I have heard all the negativity and advice I dont agree with, now will you back off and let me deal with it.
Im not giving up on the dogs because of your opinion, and to be honest I am surprised by some of the remarks.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

'I could go on about the magic of dogs but I might get a reputation of being weird, but you know what I mean.'

Yes, I do know what you mean.


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## joro32000 (Feb 25, 2017)

Just to let you know, you are not the only one living with goldens who fight each other. In a way our situation is similar to yours but with a very important difference that my husband is cooperative.

Our previous golden “Buddy” adopted from Humane Society at the age of 4 was everything to me and my husband. A heart dog for both of us. After he passed away in 2013, the house was empty. We started to look for another adult golden. Didn’t qualify for adoption from Golden Rescue so I moved on to look in private ads. I found 8 months old Gatsby looking for a forever home. We picked up Gatsby 10 days later. A few days passed and I noticed add for 9 year old Sheffy chained to a tree his whole life, living outdoors in Canadian winters. Since we already had Gatsby and I already fell in love with him, I was hesitant to pick up another golden, but my husband insisted as Sheffy reminded him of our best pal “Buddy”. 

These two guys couldn’t tolerate each other from day one. Individually they are very friendly with other dogs, no issues in the dog parks ever. The first time the serious fight broke my husband went to emergency as he required many stiches to his hands and legs. Within a couple of days we had animal control knocking our doors. They requested quarantine for 10 days and they would knock our doors twice a day, making inspections. We needed to be home at the time of their visits. A while later there was a second fight with another visit to emergency. This time around, for a fear of losing the dogs if the animal control showed up again, my husband said he fell off the roof and hit the fork underneath. After that second fight we permanently separated the dogs. 

We tried professional trainers, behaviorists at home with no success. It has almost been 5 years living with dogs in separate quarters. At the beginning it was really difficult. Now we don’t think much about it. Surely it is inconvenient as we always have to think which doors are opened. Only once since separation our dogs met eye to eye. Due to our miscommunication Gatsby and Sheffy were let outside at the same time. Surprisingly there was no fight, not even growling. They stared at each other, standing about half meter apart, but when I called Gatsby to come he turned around and happily trotted back home. Sometimes we wonder maybe they could live together now, but we are afraid to test this hypothesis. At the beginning of our journey we discussed the topic of rehoming. Unfortunately I could never rehome Gatsby, as you said I would rather rehome myself and my husband could not live without Sheffy. 

I truly hope your behaviorist will be able to resolve the issues as living with fighting dogs adds unnecessary stress and work, but even if the dogs need to be separated there is a way to live that way and honestly myself and my husband we don’t have any regrets. We just had to work around the restriction that neither of us is willing to give up on a dog.

Best of luck to you and don't give up on Dylan as he needs you and you need him.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I absolutely hope you do! Best of luck to you 



Freebird_UK said:


> To all those whot keep telling me to quit or that I am damaging the dogs I dont need your negativity, it is not helpful, you cant judge this situation, me, my wife or our dogs, or what stress I can deal with.. As the situation changes I can modify what I do. If it isnt going right I will be the first to know and then I will have to deal with it.
> 
> 
> I will prove you wrong!
> ...


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## Ladoo (Aug 12, 2018)

Hi Phil, we found a great trainer who specialises in guide dog training too - his name is Heath Ross and he is in Brentwood in Essex. I don't know for sure if he will be able to specifically help you - but we had a home visit for the puppy biting - which we were not at all handling well and i have bruises and bites all over my arms to show for it. After he came over to train us (which was really what was needed) and plus help from experienced folks on this forum - I have had no bite marks for 4 days. This is his website and i hope it helps: https://hpdt.co.uk/.

Prior to last week our pup (of then 12 weeks) was biting really badly and it felt very very aggressive and was targetted towards us. So i can in a way imagine what you two pups are like. And our pup was specially chosen for us as the calmest and most chilled from the pack (sounds like Dylan). So for me to see Ladoo (our pup) like that was worrying and my fear was "what are we doing to this poor pup to make him this way". Its not all roses yet. He still has "episodes" by we are more proactive which saves us pain and Ladoo gets spared the shouting and screaming (Which was out of fear and pain). 

All the best!


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

joro32000 said:


> Just to let you know, you are not the only one living with goldens who fight each other. In a way our situation is similar to yours but with a very important difference that my husband is cooperative.
> 
> Our previous golden “Buddy” adopted from Humane Society at the age of 4 was everything to me and my husband. A heart dog for both of us. After he passed away in 2013, the house was empty. We started to look for another adult golden. Didn’t qualify for adoption from Golden Rescue so I moved on to look in private ads. I found 8 months old Gatsby looking for a forever home. We picked up Gatsby 10 days later. A few days passed and I noticed add for 9 year old Sheffy chained to a tree his whole life, living outdoors in Canadian winters. Since we already had Gatsby and I already fell in love with him, I was hesitant to pick up another golden, but my husband insisted as Sheffy reminded him of our best pal “Buddy”.
> 
> ...



joro32000 thank you so much for your story, I am full of admiration for you both and it gives me encouragement. Although it seems unlikely wouldnt it be wonderful if your dogs eventually got on. I wonder if dogs become more laid back as they get older or maybe that doesnt work for pack animals.
Thanks again
Phil


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

I am sorry if one of my replies seemed agressive and I apologise, but it was actually written with a calm assertive attitude (Cesar Millan).
To advise me to take such a drastic measure without trying I felt was not helpful. Maybe those who advise this quit too easily and should look at themselves.
One of the things that I admire most about Americans is their 'can do' attitude, so I was doubly surprised.
Remember i have had professional advice telling me the situation can be recoverable, not easy but attainable.
I have said a lot about my situation, I didnt want to but my problem didnt make sense without revealing it, even so its not black and white and it shouldnt be necessary for me to go into further detail.
Im hoping that my wife is 'turning a corner' there are signs she may be more cooperative, thats how bi-polar works with her. When she does Im sure I can start to put all the good advice I have recieved on this forum to good use.
I cant thank you all enough for your support and interest, even those who I felt were neagative, you obviously felt you were helping in the best way you could and its appreciated.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Ladoo said:


> Hi Phil, we found a great trainer who specialises in guide dog training too - his name is Heath Ross and he is in Brentwood in Essex. I don't know for sure if he will be able to specifically help you - but we had a home visit for the puppy biting - which we were not at all handling well and i have bruises and bites all over my arms to show for it. After he came over to train us (which was really what was needed) and plus help from experienced folks on this forum - I have had no bite marks for 4 days. This is his website and i hope it helps: https://hpdt.co.uk/.
> 
> Prior to last week our pup (of then 12 weeks) was biting really badly and it felt very very aggressive and was targetted towards us. So i can in a way imagine what you two pups are like. And our pup was specially chosen for us as the calmest and most chilled from the pack (sounds like Dylan). So for me to see Ladoo (our pup) like that was worrying and my fear was "what are we doing to this poor pup to make him this way". Its not all roses yet. He still has "episodes" by we are more proactive which saves us pain and Ladoo gets spared the shouting and screaming (Which was out of fear and pain).
> 
> All the best!


Wow Ladoo, that is fantastic, I live in Billericay only 7 miles from Brentwood.


Thank you for posting about your pup, I can show it to my wife when she 'comes round'. 



I wont contact Heath Ross just yet, I will wait until my wife is ready, hopefully soon.



The help and advice I have recieved on this forum is absolutely stunning, what a great community.


Thanks Again


Phil


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## Ladoo (Aug 12, 2018)

Hope it works out Phil. 

At the peek of the puppy biting phase (And i hope we are over it!) - my hubby was saying we need to give the pup back to the breeder. He was worried about me and my daughter (who got the bites mostly) - but i got so upset and angry and did tell him that he is with us for the rest of his life and we are going to work through it. Got some friends involved to explain that its a phase to my hubby and there were days when i wondered if i had done the right thing because it did get really bad. My daughter is on antibiotics and I have green and purple marks all over my arms and thighs and he really "goes" for it when he is in that mood (growling and barking too). But he is for life and hopefully we can manage anything that comes our way with him - and become better dog owners as a result too. Fingers and toes crossed!


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

An update on the situation.


My wife was adamant that the dogs couldn’t be together so her dog Jesse stayed downstairs with her and I had my dog Dylan upstairs with me.
They did meet in passing a couple of times, no fighting just great excitement (to be expected I think).
At times I would meet Jesse in the kitchen and I would get him to sit, give a treat and a stroke and he has become much better (not because of me though, he has mellowed a little over the past month and doesn’t bite so much).


We are having new windows installed in the house so they had to be in the garden for a few days, my wife agreed.
We tied their leads to separate stakes dug in the ground and they could just reach each other, they were kept under constant supervision all day.
I took video clips throughout the day from about 11.00am to 6.00pm and uploaded them to YouTube.
Although (to me) the play fighting looked very hard I understand that they are dogs not people, Jesse is Pats dog, is darker red, has pink patches on his nose and is bigger built. He is obviously the Alpha dog and he establishes this in several ways. He is nearest the camera.


Dylan is my dog he is lighter, slimmer with long legs and a black nose. He is faster and has more energy, Jesse is tougher and harder though.
No physical damage came to the dogs and its noticeable that over the day the fighting got less and by the evening they were lying down together


Video Link 





The day after we did the same thing and the fighting was less and they got on much better, sometimes sleeping next to each other
So its looking good so far but Denise advised me that if they are likely to fall out it will be most likely at adolescence (9 months to 18 months ususally).
I have been very fortunate in getting advise from Denise of CaDeLac Dog Training who judged their behaviour in the video and I will be speaking to her again today.
By the way the dogs are on leads and harnesses in the video, that was in case things went wrong I could seperate them easier, they were under observation all day. They can now be together off the leads.

Phil
PS We used to have a real tidy, pretty garden, now we have holes everywhere, fences and two wonderful Goldens.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

I only watched the first 4 minutes, and from my un-professional view, they are playing, not fighting. You should see my two (3 1/2 and 6 months old) play. The puppy even goes for Noah's front legs when he wants to initiate play. We call it "bitey mouth" play. In fact - if you go to the link in my signature for Moses' puppy thread, I believe I uploaded a video when Moses was really little playing bitey mouth with his big brother. Totally appropriate play between them.

Edit - here's the link to the exact posts - https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co.../499001-moses-puppy-thread-2.html#post7631686
https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co.../499001-moses-puppy-thread-2.html#post7633178


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Good to see the pups having such a good time together. Such a joy to watch them have fun! I hope that you will consider making supervised play times part of their regular routine playing with other pups helps them to learn and practice bite inhibition and learn to be dogs. Dogs by nature are social animals, avoid conflict whenever possible and love to play, even my senior dogs play similarly to your pups pretty much every day, in short sessions, but they do play. When I had four male dogs, they would play and occasionally they would have disagreements/altercations that lasted mere seconds, sounded terrible, but nobody ever got hurt. The way I see it, nobody gets along with everybody all of the time, dogs are no different than we are. 

Good to see their progress, hope things continue to go well!


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

rabernet said:


> I only watched the first 4 minutes, and from my un-professional view, they are playing, not fighting. You should see my two (3 1/2 and 6 months old) play. The puppy even goes for Noah's front legs when he wants to initiate play. We call it "bitey mouth" play. In fact - if you go to the link in my signature for Moses' puppy thread, I believe I uploaded a video when Moses was really little playing bitey mouth with his big brother. Totally appropriate play between them.


Rabernet, thanks very much for your comments, we are more at ease now and the 'fighting' isnt as severe as it was a few weeks ago.
BTW Robin is a very handsome looking chap.
Our pups sem to be changing their coats at the moment and dont look to tidy, their mum was dark red with a tight curly coat.
Their tails, like Dylans legs are growing faster than the rest of them and are very untidy at the moment.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Charliethree said:


> Good to see the pups having such a good time together. Such a joy to watch them have fun! I hope that you will consider making supervised play times part of their regular routine playing with other pups helps them to learn and practice bite inhibition and learn to be dogs. Dogs by nature are social animals, avoid conflict whenever possible and love to play, even my senior dogs play similarly to your pups pretty much every day, in short sessions, but they do play. When I had four male dogs, they would play and occasionally they would have disagreements/altercations that lasted mere seconds, sounded terrible, but nobody ever got hurt. The way I see it, nobody gets along with everybody all of the time, dogs are no different than we are.
> 
> Good to see their progress, hope things continue to go well!


Thanks Charliethree for your advice now and in previous posts. They will now definitely play together every day now, and both can come for walks in the woods.
You give very sound common sense advice which has helped a lot.

I cant imagine what four male dogs would be like.


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## GoldenMom999 (Apr 14, 2017)

That looks like perfectly normal playing to me! My 3 goldens (age 1 - 11) play the "beat the crap out of each other" game on a daily basis! Goldens love hard...and they play hard!


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Freebird_UK said:


> Thanks Charliethree for your advice now and in previous posts. They will now definitely play together every day now, and both can come for walks in the woods.
> You give very sound common sense advice which has helped a lot.
> 
> I cant imagine what four male dogs would be like.


You are welcome, happy to have been of some help. 

Sounds wonderful for them, I am sure you all will enjoy having more time together! 

My 4 boys actually got along really well 99% of the time, they were a lot of fun! I had two females at the time as well, one would play with the boys, on occasion, the older one was not interested at all, but they did all get along.


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## alphadude (Jan 15, 2010)

I watched about 10 mins of the vid, trust me, they are playing. I know the difference. 

As someone said above, my guy Axl used to beat the living crap out of his 'little brother' (who outweighed him by 20 lbs) at least 3 times a day. The play fighting was always initiated by the younger dog, and it looked and sounded far more serious than what I saw in your video. It never actually got serious though, because Axl was a total alpha male, and much like you said in an earlier post, he was among other things, quite a 'street fighter'. To an inexperienced eye, it could look like a real fight but believe me, I KNOW the difference having seen Ax attacked on many occasions by strange dogs much larger than he was, that with wound up bleeding with hurt feelings, after I pulled him off of them. He was the coolest, smartest, most athletic, coordinated, energetic, and fearless dog I've ever known, who was seemingly just born knowing how to catch flying discs and beat the snot out of any dog that had the misfortune to pick a fight with him. He minded his own business, actually was aloof to other dogs, never went looking for trouble, but when it came to him, look out. He had a mean streak 7 miles wide. 

I have a situation with my two goldens currently - one is 'little brother' Puffy who is now 6.5 years old, and a 23 month old field golden named Max. Both are intact males and the fighting started when Max reached around 13 months old. It quickly escalated to the point where they need to be separated at all times. They are both extremely gentle and would never intentionally bite a person, fine with other dogs, but they just seem to want to kill each other for some reason. I believe they are vying for dominance and there is no longer a clear top dog in the house since Ax passed. They are too evenly matched for a clear victor to emerge, so rather than re-home one of them, we separate them. Like you, I am equal parts loyal and stubborn. It becomes second nature after a while. This has been going on since February. I can't help but think if Axl was still around, this wouldn't be a problem, the first time either one acted up would have been *the last*.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Thanks for your advice Alphadude, it has stopped any doubts that I had. Axl looks a lovely dog, his coat looks like Jesse's may be.
The video of the fighting shows them far less aggressive that they were originally, I don’t know what happened to cause this.
While they were apart I managed to get a better relationship with Jesse when my wife wasn’t about, mainly treats, a little training and a fuss.
He now bites far less than he did, just brushing his teeth really and over enthusiasm.
They had met occasionally through a gate, that’s all.
It’s like they missed each other but I know that can’t be.
I hope when they are adolescents between 9 and 18 months they still get on, I want to keep them intact if at all possible.
Phil


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

'It’s like they missed each other but I know that can’t be.'

Try not to under estimate the heart of a dog.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Those dogs are just playing. That is not fighting. That actually looks mild to how scary some dogs can play with each other.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Cpc1972 said:


> Those dogs are just playing. That is not fighting. That actually looks mild to how scary some dogs can play with each other.


Thanks, but yes we see that too. Before they were seperated the aggression was real and was getting dangerous, I didnt have a video of it though. Im quite happy with how they are in the last video, again, its mild compared to previously.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Charliethree said:


> 'It’s like they missed each other but I know that can’t be.'
> 
> Try not to under estimate the heart of a dog.


That is such a nice thought.
They now play together off the lead in the garden and have great fun, its so good to see.
I think some people see the video I posted as the reason for the seperation, but the video is after the seperation and they seem to have mellowed.
They both had training seperatly during this time.
Jesse (Alpha) has mellowed for sure and has stopped most of his biting.
Dylan accepts his role but he tests all the time, he is faster and has more stamina that Jesse, who is tougher and stronger and a fair bit sneakier

Today they were best budies which they have not been before


Thanks to everyone who gave advice on this, and if anyone else has a similar problem.....never give up.


Phil


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Its been about a week since we allowed the boys to be together again and the problem seems to have been resolved successfully. I would emphasise again that the video I uploaded does not show the problem we had, that video is when they were together again. I didn’t get a chance to video the fighting but believe me it was very serious.


I had a lot of useful advice from the forum for which I am very grateful, what a wonderful bunch of people there are on here. But one member, rabernet, advised me to contact a professional dog trainer, Denise Mcleod of Cadelac here in the UK, which I did and she was absolutely wonderful, she advised me on the phone and email. I could call her anytime.


We now have the boys sleeping, eating and walking separately but allow some walking together as she advised which seems to be the key, and the difference is amazing. When they meet up they are overjoyed and play as they should, pretty rough sometimes but no viciousness. They team up to hunt round the garden and they lie down together for a doze in the day.


I never asked Denise directly but she told me they mustn’t be a pack together, so I guess Dylan is in my pack where I am the top dog and Jesse is in my wifes pack where she is the top dog. When they meet they don’t have to compete as they are in different packs, well that’s my take on it. All I know is its working and life is great.


Denise did warn m e that things could change when they reach adolescence between 9 and 18 months, I will cross that bridge when I get to it.


If anyone else has this problem I would recommend Denise at CaDeLac Dog Training https://www.cadelac.co.uk/
https://www.facebook.com/cadelacdogtrainingandbehaviour/
Thanks again also to rabernet for the heads up.
(The photo shows them on leads but that’s not necessary anymore).


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

(The photo shows them on leads but that’s not necessary anymore).


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

I AM SO EXCITED TO READ ALL OF THIS!!!     
Caps and extra smileys absolutely necessary!

I hope with your tenacity and Denise's guidance you can lay a foundation of cooperation that lasts through that difficult 9mo - 18mo period and it looks like you are off to a great start.


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

I just wanted to give an update on the situation with our two boys as I had so much help and advice here which pointed the way for me.
Especially to joro32000 who had a similar situation, and exceptional dedication and who I often thought about.
The boys are 10 months old now and live in perfect harmony, they still often enjoy a play fight but not as fierce as before.
Also if I tell them to quit fighting they do.
They sometimes have a nap together during the day, play with their toys or practice digging together.

We only keep them apart at meal times and sleeping which seems to be the key.
They are wonderful, all the joy of a Golden times two.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Freebird_UK said:


> I just wanted to give an update on the situation with our two boys as I had so much help and advice here which pointed the way for me.
> Especially to joro32000 who had a similar situation, and exceptional dedication and who I often thought about.
> The boys are 10 months old now and live in perfect harmony, they still often enjoy a play fight but not as fierce as before.
> Also if I tell them to quit fighting they do.
> ...


I'm so glad for you, that's wonderful news.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Such a great update, wonderful to hear how well they are doing. 
Good looking boys.......


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## jomiel (Feb 15, 2019)

Wow, what a story! And I am so happy about the happy ending  /sniff 

They are both beauties, so glad that you guys persisted and they are getting along.


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## LynnC (Nov 14, 2015)

That’s wonderful news. Thanks for the update  They are adorable!


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## joro32000 (Feb 25, 2017)

*Wow, excellent news*

I am so happy to see your update and that everything turned up well. I have never had a doubt you can work it out. 

If you believe, you can achieve.

Now that they get along well is Dylan still “your” special dog or Jesse has also taken your heart?

All the best to you, your wife, Dylan and Jesse!


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## Freebird_UK (Jun 25, 2018)

Joro32000, it was your PM that inspired me to persist and I will always be grateful for that.
My wife’s dog Jesse is the Alpha dog of the two, he’s tough, fearless and has to be the winner. I have seen him jump really high to catch a ball and twisting backwards at the same time. Needless to say, I don’t allow this to happen now as landing on his back doesn’t faze him, it’s just that he 'must have that ball first'. He had so much determination. He has taken to me in a big way now, and tries to demonstrate to Dylan that he owns me, I am very fair in affection but realise that as Dylan accepts Jesse as the Alpha dog he doesn’t mind if Jesse gets a little more from me. He tries very hard to please but is a more single minded. Jesse has always had an expression on his face of slight puzzlement, whereas Dylan looks up in a doleful way which can look sad (in fact at times he looks the spitting image of Stan Laurel). I love how Goldens are all so similar but often with different apparent facial expressions.
Dylan will always be my best dog, he is so laid back, he’s a softy and adorable. In the evenings he gets a lot off fuss, affection and playing with me
In the morning we let them meet and its bedlam for about 15 minutes, it can look like heavy fighting but nowhere near as bad as before, and I watch their body language for any signs of real aggression, if one goes too far the other soon lets him know and they cool off. Despite being laid back Dylan can stand up for himself in play fighting and I’m relieved about that. If I think it gets too heavy, they will stop when I tell them.
The morning bedlam I can calm down by having 8 Kong balls bouncing and being kicked around at the same time, they go crazy to catch all the balls instead of fighting. Once this morning bedlam is over, they roam the garden, play, sleep and generally keep together all day.
Walking on the lead is still a problem though, but we are managing socialisation ok now, meeting as many people as possible and that’s getting better.
Last week my wife called me to the garden as Dylan had a pigeon in his mouth, it had fallen from the roof and Dylan grabbed it. Initially he didn’t want to let go but after 5 minutes I managed to get him to drop it. The bird couldn’t fly, it was a racing pigeon and had a leg ring. I made a box for it and fed with seed etc and left it in the shed quiet. I got details of the owner from the ring on the web and the guy was only 20 miles away so I took the bird back to him. He inspected it and said it was fine, it had just lost 4 feathers, so I guess that’s the retriever’s soft mouth in action.
Dylan has always been fascinated by birds flying over the garden and sitting on the roof and in the trees. Naively I thought he was just fascinated by their flight but in reality, he was probably thinking 'I want one of those'!
My wife is going through a good time right now, so making use of the time to create some rules for the future.
We are all very happy, including the boys, Goldens make like so much happier.
Joro32000, are they your boys in the photo? Very handsome chaps.
I must admit that I don’t really know how the pack thing is working here, it seems Jesse is the leader of the two dogs but he also seems to see me as the leader which is probably a good thing, but I didn’t think it worked that way.
Also, thanks for the recommendation I had from here to contact Denise McLeod of CaDeLac Dog and Puppy Training here in the UK.
Phil


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