# Oh, dear. I think I got me two Alpha Male's here...



## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Gilmour and Milo's playing has always been pretty aggressive, which is not unusual for two males growing up.

But lately, say in the last month or so, it's gotten much worse.

Bear in mind they are the best of buddies. They are always with each other. They always play with each other. They sleep with each other (both are at my feet at my desk right now). None of that has changed.

BUT!

When they play themselves into a tussle, neither one wants to give in. They just feed on each other until it gets to a point where they are beyond playing and headed well into fight mode. We're talking both on back legs, heads locked, teeth born fight mode.

At this point I have to step in and do whatever I have to to break them up, and for a minute or so afterward they are still trying to get at each other.

This has GOT to stop. I'm just not sure how to do it.

Gilmour is 20 months and Milo is 17 months old. I guess this is the doggy version of the Terrible two's.

They both also have quite a bit a game of toy-theft going on too, which sometimes leads to the above situation.

99% of the time they are great. That 1% is getting out of hand though.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> When they play themselves into a tussle, neither one wants to give in. They just feed on each other until it gets to a point where they are beyond playing in headed well into fight mode. We're talking both on back legs, heads locked, teeth born fight mode.
> 
> At this point I have to step in and do whatever I have to to break them up, and for a minute or so afterward they are still trying to get at each other.


Looks like you are doing the right thing.... 

The problem is they are the same age and evenly matched. Normal circumstances (dogs at least a year apart in age), the older dog would have the advantage and get the younger dog to back off, even if both are dominant types. 

When both dogs are evenly matched and bound to fight, that means you have to play the role of the Alpha and tell them when to back off. Something you are doing. 

Make sure you are consistent and do not tolerate any playfighting that crosses the line. And they will get the idea.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Carry your camera and get a video clip, I'd love to see it!

I was recently at a talk given by someone who works extensively with dogs, but also has worked very closely with a bunch of other canids (wolves, foxes, coyotes, new guinea singing dogs, etc). He commented that canids do NOT ever do serious fights up on back legs... mouthy bitey growly there is play and not serious. It's just too hard to cause damage when in that position. Your two could be the exception to the rule.... or it could be some mis-read body language.

Be observant and note the things that tell you they're getting a little worked up but not that much... and redirect play elsewhere or take everyone inside for a rest. 

With my golden mix, she sometimes gets too worked up and her "play" is very inappropriate and even scares my other dogs. When that happens she is repeatedly doing open mouthed lunges towards the other dog/s. Circling, and then more lunges. BEFORE she gets to that point. she does an occasional open mouth lunge and a LOT of circling. And before that, I see more than average circling. Before that... we have our normal running, chasing, role reversal play.

Good play, no matter the age, typically has a lot of role-reversals. If your two are mostly only playing with each other, they may not be as skilled with sending and receiving messages of "I've had enough" or "Let's play a little more." or "Stop wrestling and chase me!"


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

I'll be looking for some feedback on this as well....potentially I could be in the same predicament with my two boys who are 20 months and 18 months. Nothing has happened so far but their playing sometimes appears to get out of hand.

If we hear to much "noise" going on, we usually step in and tell them that's enough. It settles them down for a bit and sometimes they'll quit playing and sometimes they'll go right back to playing.

Like Gilmour and Milos, they are the best of friends and are seldom without each other.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

It's not always on the back legs. Sometimes one has the other on the ground. Sometimes they are both standing.

And when they are in this mode verbal commands are useless. I have to jump "All In" and break it up. So far I haven't been nipped, but it's been close a few times.

Here's an example.

Yesterday I let them out in the back grassy area to have a short run (too hot for a long one). There was a grass clod from mowing last weekend, and Gilmour got it.

And Milo wanted it.

I swear it was like watching some gladiator movie as they fought over that ****** grass clod! I finally had to dump my water bottle on them to get their attention. Nothing else was working.

To be honest, they remind me of myself and my sister growing up 



RedDogs said:


> Carry your camera and get a video clip, I'd love to see it!
> 
> I was recently at a talk given by someone who works extensively with dogs, but also has worked very closely with a bunch of other canids (wolves, foxes, coyotes, new guinea singing dogs, etc). He commented that canids do NOT ever do serious fights up on back legs... mouthy bitey growly there is play and not serious. It's just too hard to cause damage when in that position. Your two could be the exception to the rule.... or it could be some mis-read body language.
> 
> ...


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I'd like to see video! 

Has there been damage yet? It "could be a matter of time." Or, more likely, it's just rough play. Do more calling when they're playing less intense. Use HIGH value reinforcers. Have a lot of toys around. Give them separate exercise time before being together. Get a dog body language book/DVD to watch and be more comfortable with. Spend time watching other dogs play. Look for those signals that let you know, before they get worked up, what is going on....

But...if there hasn't been damage in the many instances... it's likely just rough play.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

I must admit, I have a hard time knowing when it is getting to be "enough", and unfortunately for Jax, he is usually my tell tale dsign since he is the voal one (Lucy is a VERY quiet dog). Believe me, Lucy gets her digs in, but it is Jax who is loud, growling and such. I usually step in when it is getting too rambunctious. Am I cutting it too short? I just try to use my best judgement.


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

My son's pup is 9 months old now and very persistent when Ike (3) is ready to take a break. I've noticed that Ike will turn on Hunter, growl and bare is teeth to ward him off. Hunter does not always back down and my worry is that as Hunter gets older he'll become more brave and I might one day have a out and out fight on my hands. Recently they have started to stand on their back legs and wrestle each other by wrapping their legs around each others necks. I thought this was an escalation toward what could become a real fight.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

paula bedard said:


> My son's pup is 9 months old now and very persistent when Ike (3) is ready to take a break. I've noticed that Ike will turn on Hunter, growl and bare is teeth to ward him off. Hunter does not always back down and my worry is that as Hunter gets older he'll become more brave and I might one day have a out and out fight on my hands. Recently they have started to stand on their back legs and wrestle each other by wrapping their legs around each others necks. I thought this was an escalation toward what could become a real fight.


I've seen my guys stand on their back legs and wrap their legs around each others necks as well. Honestly, if it wasn't for Lincoln being so "vocal", I would never know there was anything going on...Austin rarely makes a sound. I can always tell when Lincoln has had enough or is getting angry as he gives Austin a few loud barks as if to say "back off bud". After that, they usually go to their own corners and chill for awhile!!!


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Nuttin*

Nuttin

Just a thought-are the boys neutered?


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Not yet, but I have my concerns it won't be long.

I've said myself to others with this issue the same thing. It's rough play.

This is beyond what I envision as rough play.



RedDogs said:


> I'd like to see video!
> 
> Has there been damage yet? It "could be a matter of time." Or, more likely, it's just rough play. Do more calling when they're playing less intense. Use HIGH value reinforcers. Have a lot of toys around. Give them separate exercise time before being together. Get a dog body language book/DVD to watch and be more comfortable with. Spend time watching other dogs play. Look for those signals that let you know, before they get worked up, what is going on....
> 
> But...if there hasn't been damage in the many instances... it's likely just rough play.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Milo, yes. Gilmour, no.



Karen519 said:


> Nuttin
> 
> Just a thought-are the boys neutered?


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

I have the same problem when Hank & his brother get together. They are both now neutered but that hasn't seemed to have helped. Hank appears to be the more dominate of the two, he will stand with his head over bro's neck and not allow him to move, if bro attempts to move Hank will growl or block his way.

Hank get's along with both my daughter's other dogs; a neutered GSD and an intact 6 month old small mix.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Unfortunately, they are right at the age where they need to sort out who is going to be the dominant dog and until they do, you will continue to have issues between them.
This is advice I've given a lot of my customers here who have had the same problem, and it helps most of the time.
A lot of people unintentionally make the problem worse by not allowing nature to "take its course" and letting one dog become dominant. By this I don't mean let them fight it out, I mean treat your dominant dog as the dominant dog. 
We as humans have a tendency to want to help the "underdog" or be sure that everything is "fair", and that's not how the canine world operates. The dominant dog gets special treatment, and until we acknowledge their position above the other dog we confuse them and allow the scuffles to continue.
Who do you think is the more dominant dog? Watch their behavior. Who goes out the door first when you open it? Who selects the toy to play with? You probably have an idea which of them is the "top dog", at least for now.
Treat that one a bit "special". Feed him (a few seconds) first all the time. Pet him first. Let him out the door (a few seconds) first. If your dominant dog wants ALL the toys, so be it. Don't try to take one away and give it to the "poor other dog who has nothing" (at least for now, while they are sorting it out. I don't mean their whole lives one can have nothing while the other has everything!!). That's the only way they will establish a pack order, and there will be relative peace in the house. Take your human emotions out of it, there is no place for them in the dog world.
At the same time, continue to enforce YOUR position as above BOTH of them. 
Here's my analogy....
Let's say you work in an office. You have a boss, and you have someone that reports to you. 
Your boss, however, treats both of you the same. Or worse yet, is always trying to even things up between the two of you, even though your position in the company is clearly higher and more prestigious. You end up getting paid the same, getting the same perks, and so on because your boss doesn't want the person under you to "feel bad". To make it worse, the person who reports to you loves the situation, and gloats about the way the boss is treating her/him.
You'd start feeling some resentment, no matter how much you liked the other person. You might even get downright mad sometimes.....


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> Unfortunately, they are right at the age where they need to sort out who is going to be the dominant dog and until they do, you will continue to have issues between them.
> This is advice I've given a lot of my customers here who have had the same problem, and it helps most of the time.
> A lot of people unintentionally make the problem worse by not allowing nature to "take its course" and letting one dog become dominant. By this I don't mean let them fight it out, I mean treat your dominant dog as the dominant dog.
> We as humans have a tendency to want to help the "underdog" or be sure that everything is "fair", and that's not how the canine world operates. The dominant dog gets special treatment, and until we acknowledge their position above the other dog we confuse them and allow the scuffles to continue.
> ...


There is only one problem with this. Many times the humans misjudge who is the "dominant" one. This can totally backfire if you are supporting the wrong dog and can actually cause even more fights that could get ugly quickly.

I think you are dealing with two dogs who are hitting social maturity plus one of them is hitting sexual maturity and that can spell trouble. I would suggest following NILIF with both of them and making sure that you have things under control. As was suggested, I would interrupt the play before it escalates. I do think that once you get Gilmore neutered, things will settle down.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

I'd say Gilmour is probably the more dominant, but only in that he tends to be the instigator.

But once it starts, Milo is absolutely willing to do what it takes to win!

Once I've broken it up, it's usually Milo that won't let it be right away.

They had another pretty good one last night 

Oddly, it seems to be more likely to happen after they have had dinner. In fact, I don't recall this really ever being an issue during the day. It's always towards the evening/after dinner.

Maybe it's because they have been lying at my feet all day and have pent up energy?

**** this hot summer. It's kept them inside far more than I wanted them to be.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I have to say dominant dogs (alpha) usually lead with stuble hints, a confident and gentle manner. Dogs that instigate usually are not the dominant dog but one attempting to change the status que and become the leader. If the instigator doesn't take the gentle direction of the alpha dog things can escalate. 
I agree with Fostermom. But dominance is situational and for different events one dog may take the lead that doesn't for other events.
http://www.4pawsu.com/DebunkingDomMyth.pdf Carmen Buitrago

Beyond the Dominance Paradigm Patricia McConnell

Dog Whisperer, Dog Psychology and Cesar Millan Patricia McConnell lots of good links in PDF form such as lowering arousal, etc.


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## GoldenMum (Mar 15, 2010)

I totally agree with Solinvictus and the other posts. I have had issues with Calvin and Hobbes (littermates) fighting since 5 months old. It wasn't rough play, it was fighting. I also found out that Hobbes, who instigated, was dominate. Boy, was I wrong; it seems Calvin the meek is dominate. Calvin is low key, and fair; but will end something that starts to keep the peace. I used the NILIF on both, even walking through them, instead of around them; as I am the pack leader. But I also (once figuring out Calvin, not Hobbes was dominant) made sue Calvin is fed first, goes out first, gets pets first. Hobbes had to learn his place , it was a long road, but I have two happy, loving brothers now!


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

I need Dr. Phil


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## Adriennelane (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm pretty sure that Lucy is the dominate girl in my house. Dory is always initiating play, taking Lucy's toys, and such. However, she only does that when Lucy lets her. There are time when Lucy just gets tired of the little one and will give Dory a quick growl and snap. She doesn't bite her, she just tells her to back off.



Dory wants to be the dominate one, though. Lately she's been humping Lucy when they're playing. Still yet, there are things she won't do without Lucy. Lucy is still very much in control of things. Bart and I don't think so, but the more I watch, the more I understand.

Like how when Dory was little, Lucy let her wrestle and seem like she was winning all the time. Now Lucy just flips Dory over and wallers all over her. She was just waiting until Dory was big enough not to get hurt.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

It's not always that the instigator is the less dominate one, though. Enzo will try to start stuff with with Hunter, but only because he wants to play. Hunter just doesn't play. He doesn't chew bones, he doesn't play with toys...none of it. But Enzo is VERY much so the dominate one. When we go on walks, he has to be in front of Hunter. Hunter (who is SO food-obsessed) will sit and wait patiently for Enzo to finish eating if he finishes first so that he can check Enzo's bowl. With any other dogs that Hunter has lived with, if Hunter wanted to take a peek at their bowl, he did NOT wait until they were done. If Enzo walks over by Hunter while Hunter is eating, Hunter will step aside so that Enzo can take a look at his bowl. (This is making dinner time SO much fun for me.:no If Enzo jumps up on the bed with us and stands over Hunter, Hunter will get off the bed and lay on the floor. Hunter even let Enzo hump him last night. This completely threw up for a loop, since Hunter has ALWAYS been the dominate one with any other dogs he has lived with, while Enzo will roll over on his back for just about any dog.


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

I do not have any advice to offer except to recommend you do what you can to understand their behaviors and address it while they are young. Oakley and Seger, who are male littermates, and almost 7 years old now, started having issues around the age of 2. Unfortunately we did not know where to turn for help. Our local breeder told us to "not interfere and let them work it out". Well, that sure didn't work. Over the past 5 years they have had 5 out and out fights. Oakley lives in fear of Seger - he peeks around doors before entering rooms, Seger will stand at the top of the stairs and growl and not let Oakley come up, he stands over Oakley when Oak is lying down, they never ever lay close to one another, if Oakley comes near one of us Seger will run at him snarling, if Oakley lays down Seger will strategically lay in such a way that he is staring at Oakley - which I know makes Oak very uncomfortable. Then if Oakley moves Seger runs at him snarling. etc. We even have had to construct a barrier to put in the back seat of our truck to separate them, because if Oakley moves Seger flies at him snarling. It is only in the past year that Seger has even let Oakley in our bedroom - but if Oakley is on the bed and Seger jumps up, Oakley immediately jumps down. We feed them in separate rooms, we have never been able to give them bones to chew - anything we give them has to be finished in one short sitting - like a dentabone - or Seger will try to take Oakley's and a fight will start. We have done the NILFF, we make them both wait to go out after us, up stairs after us, we walk through both of them if they are in our path, we watch and intervene before Seger makes his move (we are so in tune to his behaviors now) etc, but nothing has worked.To this day I wish someone could come to our home and help us - we have just found ways to "work around" it. Seger is also very dog aggressive, - he automatically assumes he should be top dog everywhere and he does not back down.
In reading some of these posts I see Seger's behavior in what your dogs are doing. Based on our experience these past 7 years and our current situation, I hope you can figure it out. We have had many very sad days wishing that we had been able to resolve this years ago. 
Carol


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