# Breeder Allen Bain?



## Megora

Okay... 

Are the parents registered and have their clearances? Or do you know anything about the parents? Where they came from? What exactly does this guarantee mean? You get $450 back if your dog needs a $2000+ surgery...?

The facebook page is unhelpful because it's just pics of puppies.


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## sterregold

Right off the bat, to claim you have no hereditary problems with you dogs ever is preposterous. If you've been in a breed for any length of time you hit some issues! 
I think he has been discussed before and there was some hinky stuff. For one, if the dogs are from the states they need to be registered here, and the pups need to be CKC registered to be able tocall them purebred Goldens. If it is not registered or eligible for registration with the CKC it is against the law to call a dog purebred under the animal pedigree act. Coming from the States has nothing to do with that. My Breeze was US born and is registered here--the only reason you cannot register an AKC dog with the CKC would be if it is on limited reg in which case the dog's breeder never intended for them to have been bred!! Also you do not have to be a CKC member to register a litter--it just costs non-members more.

At $430 a pup there is NO WAY they are doing all of the screening required on the parents. It is expensive to get clearances on hips, elbows, heart, eyes, and to get the genetic tests also now available for the two forms of PRA, and so on. I have never seen him compete with a dog in anythin, conformation, obedience, or field, so he is getting no outside objective feedback on the quality of his animals.

If he is not willing to give back your deposit I would frankly eat it and keep looking. There are many reputable breeders in this province. If the prices we are charging seem off-putting I would suggest waiting a bit and saving for a well-bred pup rather than chancing a "bargain" who could well be a genetic crap shoot.

Heather MacDonald, Arcane, has a litter right now, and I think she may still have a couple of girls available. She is in Eastern Ontario and has lovely dogs, and does all of the testing, and competes with her dogs to get objective feedback about their quality. Available puppies or planned litters

Especially our beloved pets deserve to be well-bred and have the best shot at a long and healthy life.


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## golden_eclipse

Its worth loosing your deposit, to avoid the risk this breeding most likely has. A good breeder shows you all of the clearances, before you even see their puppies. They also make you do some form of interview or puppy application (or both) before they take a deposit. They also compete with their dogs in multiple venues. Again I guarantee this man isn't the most generous person in the world and breeding finished champions with all their clearances, and asking $430 for them....because even breeders who ask $1500 and do all of that, loose money. Please contact him, and ask for the registered names of the parents, if they aren't registered, I'm pretty sure through Canadian law that if he misled you to believe they were purebred, but are in fact not registered, you should get your deposit back.


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## Wyatt's mommy

You said he didn't offer any references. Why don't you ask for them. I wouldn't jump the gun without even talking to other puppy owners......
If he has been in the business as many years as he says he has been he should have many that you could meet and discuss with.


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## nolefan

I honestly don't put much stock in references. As we've seen over and over again on this board, most people will recommend their breeder because "my dog is wonderful and loving", not because the breeder is following the Golden Retriever club code of ethics and doing everything by the book. 

Ask for the copies of all the clearances on the sire and dam and whether the clearances are recorded with OFA. You would ideally want to see that the grandparents and greatgp have clearances as well. If he can provide all this, terrific. Have further discussion. If not, ask for the deposit back. If he won't give it back, consider it a lesson that was probably cheaply learned in the long run and find a better breeder. If you're choosing a beloved family member for the next 15 years, you owe it to yourself and to the dog.


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## KiwiD

Deposit or not I would look elsewhere.


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## Wyatt's mommy

Aurorelle said:


> A couple months ago I was calling up golden breeders that I found online/*through friends*.


Have these friends had experience with him?


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## LibertyME

personal references are valuable, but IMHO come _after_ fact gathering.


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## golden_eclipse

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Have these friends had experience with him?


I put no weight really in the experience pet owners have with breeders.; What really matters is if he is following the Golden Retriever Club of America's Code of ethics. If he was, I think the first thing he would have done is show clearances, because that's what people do who get clearances on their dogs.


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## AmbikaGR

I am confused. I saw in another thread you posted about you puppy having an issue with getting into your cat's food. Did you get a pup from this breeder or are you in the process of getting another pup?


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## Wyatt's mommy

AmbikaGR said:


> I am confused. I saw in another thread you posted about you puppy having an issue with getting into your cat's food. Did you get a pup from this breeder or are you in the process of getting another pup?


 
I just read that too:


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## Megora

Well... it's the first week in February. I guess this means she got the puppy.


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## Shalva

LibertyME said:


> personal references are valuable, but IMHO come _after_ fact gathering.


and lets be honest people only give you the names of folks who are going to give them a good reference. Also look at all the folks that come here with poorly bred puppies that will argue to the death in favor of their irresponsible breeder because they are nice and they love their puppy.


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## Layne

I bought a dog who was supposed to be purebred from Al Bain you can follow threads about her Abby9wks on retrieverman and google all the pups in the litter had a white blaze and the father Molson had a big whte blaze. The reasoning is that they are field line goldens. If you look them up they do have white on them but as time goes by I believe we trusted the wrong people. The mom definately was pure golden but Molson could be part Toller, Farm collie or english Shepherd (just my guess). If he can't prove they are pure cut your losses. I must say I love my dog she is unique and beautiful and has a great temperment so does her sister Bella. Look up our dogs to help make your decision also Saturn is Molsons full brother and is definately a typical golden??????


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## firkald

Hey all, 

I'm looking into getting a puppy from Al Bain as well. I called him and spoke for a bit, he seemed to know what he was talking about. He was quite opinionated on the whole health check of the parents process, saying that even if you do health checks etc, puppies still might get hip dysplasia etc. Which is kind of weird to me, since even with my high school biology, I know puppies whose parents don't have those issues are less likely to have them too. So why not check right? 

He says he gets the sires from the US, switching a state every few years. Makes sense, don't know if it's true though. 

As far as I can tell, he's not CKC registered either. Don't know if that's a big deal or not, is it?? 

So people who got their pups from this breeder, what do you think? Any warnings or praise? 

I'm going to visit the kennel soon to see for myself either way. Will update once I return!


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## Jamm

Walk away! walk very far away, there are many other AMAZING breeders in Ontario..


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## Megora

> I'm going to visit the kennel soon to see for myself either way.


Based on the clearances stuff, I wouldn't. It's a waste of time + they know that once they get you inside the door they can show you puppies and sweettalk you into pulling that wallet out.


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## Jamm

Even if you're just wanting a 'pet' you still want to get a healthy, well bred dog. Some awesome breeder's in Ontario to name a few...

Ambertru (my Joey's breeder)
Sterre
In the pink
Labryinth
Arcance

etc.

check this list
http://www.grcc.net/files/club_documents/GRCC_Breeders_List.pdf


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## firkald

Thanks for the quick replies. 

What are you denouncing him based on though? Just the clearance stuff? I'm curious what actual experience people have had with him. After googling, I find that a couple of people have made threads about this breeder, but no one ever comes to update once they have/haven't gotten the puppy (very frustrating).


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## Megora

firkald said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I'm looking into getting a puppy from Al Bain as well. I called him and spoke for a bit, he seemed to know what he was talking about. He was *quite opinionated on the whole health check of the parents process,* *saying that even if you do health checks etc, puppies still might get hip dysplasia etc.* Which is kind of weird to me, since even with my high school biology, I know puppies whose parents don't have those issues are less likely to have them too. So why not check right?
> 
> *He says he gets the sires from the US, switching a state every few years.* Makes sense, don't know if it's true though.
> 
> *As far as I can tell, he's not CKC registered either*. Don't know if that's a big deal or not, is it??
> 
> So people who got their pups from this breeder, what do you think? Any warnings or praise?
> 
> I'm going to visit the kennel soon to see for myself either way. Will update once I return!


 
The parts in bold are the big issues. Your decent reputable breeders would not be fishy-shifty-making-excuses like that. 

Again, any bad breeder can convince somebody that they are legit if you let them talk long enough and allow them to dance cute fuzzy puppies in front of you.


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## SheetsSM

No clearances equals a deal breaker. Slapping 2 unregistered goldens together & making money off puppies is not someone I wish to support or encourage. Going to the US to select his goldens to breed and switching up states every couple of years makes no sense. Does he know the lines of his goldens, strengths, weaknesses, structural issues, temperament? If his goldens are so great and should be bred, why would you hop from breeder to breeder to acquire new goldens?

Please read the stickies on how to select a breeder.


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## Jamm

They say you can't judge a book by its cover... but when purchasing a puppy I think you can.. and should. I have never spoken to this 'breeder' but based on the information given I can tell he is not someone I would like to give money to and/or purchase a pup from. A breeder should be honest and willing to answer questions and concerns you have.


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## firkald

All right, good to know, thanks for the replies guys!

Oh one last thing, he said he doesn't allow buyers to pick up our touch the puppies for fear of transmitting parasites (even after several weeks old). I've heard never of this before, is it legit?


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## ThatShortGirl

Most legitimate breeders will let you visit the pups after 4 weeks of age. You may have to make an appt, take off your shoes, wash hands, etc. A breeder who won't let you see the pups until you pick them up, or one who won't let you meet the parents or see where the dogs were raised/kept is a huge dealbreaker. Just my opinion.


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## firkald

He said I could see the pups, just can't touch them. I think the pup is like 6-7 weeks old. Is that legit?


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## AmbikaGR

firkald said:


> He said I could see the pups, just can't touch them. I think the pup is like 6-7 weeks old. Is that legit?


Nope!! :no:


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## Crystalballl

I too have talked to Al in the last couple of days. We were suppose to go up there this evening to pick a pup. I'm told theres only 2 left and lots of interest in them so if I don't get up there I'll have to wait for the next ones due in september I believe. 

I don't know how I feel about it all. he was knowledgeable, but also a big know it all imo.


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## Pointgold

firkald said:


> Thanks for the quick replies.
> 
> What are you denouncing him based on though? Just the clearance stuff? I'm curious what actual experience people have had with him. After googling, I find that a couple of people have made threads about this breeder, but no one ever comes to update once they have/haven't gotten the puppy (very frustrating).


 
"Just the clearance stuff" ????????? "Just" ???? That in itself is more than enough. Breeding without clearances is irresponsible. Period. 

As for "switching a state every few years".... WTH????? What state a dog is from means *N O T H I N G. *His pedigree, history of health clearances, structural and MENTAL soundness are everything. To me, this would cause me to wonder if he isn't purchasing dogs from breeders under false pretenses and "switching states every few years" just to stay under the radar. Regardless, it'w weird, and as far as the health and quality of the dogs, means NOTHING.


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## Jamm

Crystalballl said:


> I too have talked to Al in the last couple of days. We were suppose to go up there this evening to pick a pup. I'm told theres only 2 left and lots of interest in them so if I don't get up there I'll have to wait for the next ones due in september I believe.
> 
> I don't know how I feel about it all. he was knowledgeable, but also a big know it all imo.



Have you read the rest of this thread? Have you seen WHY he is not reputable? Please re-consider :\


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## Crystalballl

Yes I read it all. I didn't say I was going with him.


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## AmbikaGR

Crystalballl said:


> he was knowledgeable, but also a big know it all imo.


 
No he is NOT!! He is a con artist, bulls___ter!!!! :doh:


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## MaddieMagoo

I'm sorry...but this guy just seems the ODD DUCK. Why in the heck can't you touch the puppies at 6-7 weeks old?!?! HA! This guy makes me chuckle and I haven't even bred a litter and am not an expert in any way shape or form. But, to claim you've had "40 years" of experience and I've had none..but what I do know that puppies need socialization with people from DAY ONE! A truly good, reputable breeder will make sure that their dog has clearances on them and never misses a beat when it comes to those. 
Clearances are there for a reason. Whether people think it is important or not, it is!! I don't think a good breeder would spend all of that money and time to get their dogs OFA'd or CERF'd...because they CARE! 

Sorry for the rant...I'm just so frustrated with seeing some people think that breeding dogs is a money maker, because in fact, it IS NOT!


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## Maddie'sMom2011

I agree!! I've had many people ask me when we're going to breed Maddie. When I tell them she's been spayed, I usually hear "but you could make so much money". My response is "I've got a job". Occasionally I have to try to educate them about back-yard breeders. It usually goes in one ear & right out the other. **sigh** at least I try.


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## MaddieMagoo

Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> I agree!! I've had many people ask me when we're going to breed Maddie. When I tell them she's been spayed, I usually hear "but you could make so much money". My response is "I've got a job". Occasionally I have to try to educate them about back-yard breeders. It usually goes in one ear & right out the other. **sigh** at least I try.


I'm VERY glad you spayed her! Good choice!  Don't worry, I could go on a tangent about this at work, but I'm sure it would go in one year and bounce around and then pop back out. LOL! :uhoh:


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## Maddie'sMom2011

Thank you! To be perfectly honest, having her spayed was a no brainer for us. I'll leave the breeding to the experts.


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## MaddieMagoo

Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> Thank you! To be perfectly honest, having her spayed was a no brainer for us. I'll leave the breeding to the experts.


You are welcome! I remember from a companion animal class of mine in college my spring semester, my professor had stated a whole bunch of things on genetic testing, and clearances. She also said that dogs don't necessarily care if they reproduce or not as it isn't going to hurt them emotionally. If only we could do clearances on humans.....LOL! :bowl:


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## Sally's Mom

Hey hey good by... Not a breeder to go to...


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## Maddie'sMom2011

How's Basil doing?


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## Sally's Mom

Basil is hanging in there. Large and in charge...


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## Maddie'sMom2011

So glad that your girl is doing well. I'm following your thread on her. BYW, when I referred to the "experts" you were in my thoughts.


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## arcane

Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> I agree!! I've had many people ask me when we're going to breed Maddie. When I tell them she's been spayed, I usually hear "but you could make so much money". My response is "I've got a job". Occasionally I have to try to educate them about back-yard breeders. It usually goes in one ear & right out the other. **sigh** at least I try.


ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!! I have yet to make LOTS of $$$$  wonder what I am doing wrong???? Oh I know, I do clearances, warranty my pups, show them, etc etc ............::--big_grin::roflmao:eepwall:


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## MaddieMagoo

arcane said:


> ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!! I have yet to make LOTS of $$$$  wonder what I am doing wrong???? Oh I know, I do clearances, warranty my pups, show them, etc etc ............::--big_grin::roflmao:eepwall:


Oh my gosh!! You to tell me that if I show my quality dogs, I won't make money!?!?! LOL!!! ::bowl:


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## arcane

and just where is everyone finding this breeder? as he is in my backyard (pretty much) and I have never heard of him!


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## firkald

found him on kijiji


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## mickeychick

We also found him on Kijiji. I did phone him and we nearly drove out to see the pups. A couple of things were a red flag for me. 

1) the low price of his pups
2) why did he have so many pups at once?
3) he was unwilling to provide any references. If his lines are so wonderful, why no references? 

That was enough for me. We scratched him from our list of potential breeders.


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## mickeychick

Crystalballl said:


> I too have talked to Al in the last couple of days. We were suppose to go up there this evening to pick a pup. I'm told theres only 2 left and lots of interest in them so if I don't get up there I'll have to wait for the next ones due in september I believe.
> 
> I don't know how I feel about it all. he was knowledgeable, but also a big know it all imo.


Don't be pressured by being told you may have to wait for the next litter. You'd be wise to wait and do some research. Don't rush into anything. You've got to commit to this puppy for hopefully many years. Take your time and make sure you are getting the right puppy.


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## Pointgold

I have a feeling he may be a broker.


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## Wyatt's mommy

kdowningxc said:


> I put no weight really in the *experience pet owners* have with breeders.; What really matters is if he is following the Golden Retriever Club of America's Code of ethics. If he was, I think the first thing he would have done is show clearances, because that's what people do who get clearances on their dogs.


Actually she was talking about experienced "friends". I would trust an experienced "friend" than anyone on line. But what do I know


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## Mosby's Mom

firkald said:


> found him on kijiji


No good, reputable breeder would advertise their pups on kijiji or craigslist or next day pets or any place like that.


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## ThatShortGirl

mickeychick said:


> Don't be pressured by being told you may have to wait for the next litter. You'd be wise to wait and do some research. Don't rush into anything. You've got to commit to this puppy for hopefully many years. Take your time and make sure you are getting the right puppy.


I can't say how grateful I am that I DON'T currently have the money for a puppy -- I have to save and that has given me time to find a great breeder! And as far as references, the people on this forum have been invaluable! And I've found that those who have gotten pups from reputable breeders usually have a string of "congrats" or "that's my pup's brother/cousin/aunt" etc. The search bar has helped me tremendously.


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## Crystalballl

I luckily found a Pup who needed adopting in my area and we gave him a good home. 
I never ended up going to see his Pup's. There were lots of red flag's for myself too. I never said I agreed with his "doings" or was going to purchase a pup from him. Just voiced what I was told. 

I'm a huge researcher so I wasn't jumping in to any commitment with any breeder. Backyard breeder or not.


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## mickeychick

Crystalballl said:


> I luckily found a Pup who needed adopting in my area and we gave him a good home.
> I never ended up going to see his Pup's. There were lots of red flag's for myself too. I never said I agreed with his "doings" or was going to purchase a pup from him. Just voiced what I was told.
> 
> I'm a huge researcher so I wasn't jumping in to any commitment with any breeder. Backyard breeder or not.


Biscuit it adorable! Congrats!! Which breeder did you end up going with?


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## arcane

there have been reputable breeders posting on kijiji on occasion! Heck I have...however my post was hugely different than the byb breeders. I did put it out there that we had a litter (s) and directed inquiries to our website, then to our application and adoption process...


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## Crystalballl

No breeder. Adopted him off a couple who couldn't keep him.


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## Karen519

*Crystal*

So glad you adopted and CRYSTAL IS JUST ADORABLE!


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## twilley

*Alan Bain*



Aurorelle said:


> A couple months ago I was calling up golden breeders that I found online/through friends. I ended up going with a gentleman named Al Bain in Campbellford, ON. He seemed to know his stuff, provided an 8 year guarantee for hips, heart, eyes and elbows, and claimed to have some 40some years of experience in GR breeding. He also claimed to train guide dogs for St. John's Ambulance and boasts that his dogs are from the states and have no hereditary problems.
> 
> I visited them last week and both parents were well tempered and friendly, and he handled the puppies with care and overall it seemed like a good match. Of course, this was before I discovered this wealth of information online and I went ahead and placed a deposit with him. I looked him up online and found a few posts from members of this forum claiming they had good experiences with him as well.
> 
> Now that I'm reading all the checklists and such on this forum, I'm feeling a bit nervous because I noticed some red flags. He has no website and isn't registered with the CKC. He also only charges $430 a pup, and at the time of my visit, he hadn't offered any references or proof to any of his claims, but maybe that was because I didn't ask.
> 
> Another thing is that he said the puppies should be available for pickup in the first week of February, but when I asked if I could pick up on Friday, he told me to call Thursday to ask again because he said that his vet goes to him, and he won't know until the vet gives the OK. I found this kinda sketchy because I feel like breeders should know when their vet is going to drop by and when their puppies can be rehomed.
> 
> Anyhow, this is the most recent information I can find on him:
> Als Goldens | Facebook
> It hasn't been updated in a while.
> 
> Anyway, I was just hoping someone maybe had some experience with Al and could give me some peace of mind, or any thoughts. It's already too late to back out because I've already placed a deposit, but maybe if someone could help me think of what to ask him when I visit him again or over the phone?
> 
> Thanks and sorry for the wall of text


 
*August 2, 2012 *

*We have 2 golden retrievers from Allen Bain in Campbellford, ON. Our first, Brady is 9 years old and our second, Mya is 6 years old. They are happy, healthy and beautiful dogs! We get complimented daily on how well they behave (we followed Allen's training advice), and how healthy they are. Our vet has even asked us where we got them because they are in such good health. *

*We absolutely recommemd Allen Bain's Golden Retrievers to anyone.*

*Mrs. Twilley*
*Sudbury, ON*
*Canada*


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## vcm5

twilley said:


> *August 2, 2012 *
> 
> *We have 2 golden retrievers from Allen Bain in Campbellford, ON. Our first, Brady is 9 years old and our second, Mya is 6 years old. They are happy, healthy and beautiful dogs! We get complimented daily on how well they behave (we followed Allen's training advice), and how healthy they are. Our vet has even asked us where we got them because they are in such good health. *
> 
> *We absolutely recommemd Allen Bain's Golden Retrievers to anyone.*
> 
> *Mrs. Twilley*
> *Sudbury, ON*
> *Canada*


I'm glad that you have such great dogs and that they are healthy. Sweet, awesome, healthy dogs can still come from irresponsible breeders. No one is saying anything bad about your dogs, we just don't feel like this breeder is following all the necessary steps to responsibly breed golden retrievers. I think that facts are facts - he is not doing the necessary clearances. But I am glad that you have great dogs - we'd love to hear all about them!


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## Elysia

Okay, I have a golden from Allen Bain. I will say this now and let me emphasize, *I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS BREEDER*. Let me fill in the blanks from my experience.

First of all, I never knew of an online community of GR lovers where I could read about a good breeder. At the time, all that was going through our minds was "aww puppy!". That being said, we were quick to notice this breeder because of his low price and distance from our place. We called and had some very long conversations with him. He's a know-it-all sort of guy, alluding to articles in Times Magazine to explain why he didn't register his pups (I still don't get what he means). He radiated confidence, like an excellent salesman. We were sold. 

Now before anything else, we went to our vet (from previous owned dogs) and got her checked out right away. She was (and is still) in perfect health, no parasites or anything like that. She has a lovely temperament, but of course any golden owner would say that. She's so smart and loving. She's 10 months old now.

Now the concerns. It rang a few bells at the time when I went to pick her up after visiting her once before. He did not let us see where the dogs were kept. It was during the winter, and from what I saw of his property, I didn't see an adequate kennel space/building separate from the home. We did not get introduced to the parents, and when I asked, he said she was with the pups in the kennel, and didn't offer me the father either.

When he brought the pup in, she looked puzzled and cold, and before I got to touch her Mr. Bain had his assistant bathe her. When talking about discipline and care, he said that the "first command" was something along the lines of "EH!" with a quick snap of the fingers to the nose. I never had the heart to hit Zoey, as I was told by him, but he was very insistent that it was the only way to train the dog well. He told us to feed Puppy Chow from Purina, and said later to feed a No Name dog food brand! In my mind, I was thinking I would never feed her that level of crap; even my ill informed self back then knew better. So all I thought of that was "OK, I won't listen to his advice." The cuteness radiating off my puppy clearly blinded all my logic. 

Anyway Zoey is well, is on the smaller end of the spectrum but he did mention that he doesn't breed large goldens. She is very intelligent and active and drives us nuts like puppies should. Attached are pictures.

I say this with full disclosure and I'm happy to answer any questions. Please remember before you bash me for purchasing the pup from a terrible breeder that I truly had the best intentions and was unfortunately irresponsibly informed.


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## Maddie'sMom2011

Welcome, Zoey is beautiful!


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## Max's Dad

Zoey is a very pretty girl. Welcome to the forum.


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## Lucas07

Al bain is not a good breeder we got a puppy from him and the dog we got was aggressive from the day we got him home. He doesn't let you see where they are kept or the parents. My dog had to be put down at the age of 3 for attacking us I have never had a golden that did this to us we called al bain he said it was our fault which was not the case. We think Al is inbreeding his dogs or puppy mill he sells way to many puppies in a year and his females are old. Please people we have to get this guy out of business.


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## Lucas07

Al also told us to bring our dog up to his place and he was going to beat it and he won't bite you guys again which I found was not right.


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## mickeychick

We nearly went with Al Bain as well, but something told me not to. I think it was the fact that he said we could NOT see the area where the pups were kept. That is a RED FLAG. We ended up going with a breeder near Peterborough called Bydandacres. I HIGHLY recommend them. They only have puppies once or twice a year, then let us see everything when we were there and our Liberty is a wonderful, wonderful girl. Also, I didn't know this at the time, Golden Rescue usually has several Goldens needing to find their forever homes. They even get the occasional puppy! Golden Rescue :: Home


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## Lucas07

Aurorelle said:


> A couple months ago I was calling up golden breeders that I found online/through friends. I ended up going with a gentleman named Al Bain in Campbellford, ON. He seemed to know his stuff, provided an 8 year guarantee for hips, heart, eyes and elbows, and claimed to have some 40some years of experience in GR breeding. He also claimed to train guide dogs for St. John's Ambulance and boasts that his dogs are from the states and have no hereditary problems.
> 
> I visited them last week and both parents were well tempered and friendly, and he handled the puppies with care and overall it seemed like a good match. Of course, this was before I discovered this wealth of information online and I went ahead and placed a deposit with him. I looked him up online and found a few posts from members of this forum claiming they had good experiences with him as well.
> 
> Now that I'm reading all the checklists and such on this forum, I'm feeling a bit nervous because I noticed some red flags. He has no website and isn't registered with the CKC. He also only charges $430 a pup, and at the time of my visit, he hadn't offered any references or proof to any of his claims, but maybe that was because I didn't ask.
> 
> Another thing is that he said the puppies should be available for pickup in the first week of February, but when I asked if I could pick up on Friday, he told me to call Thursday to ask again because he said that his vet goes to him, and he won't know until the vet gives the OK. I found this kinda sketchy because I feel like breeders should know when their vet is going to drop by and when their puppies can be rehomed.
> 
> Anyhow, this is the most recent information I can find on him:
> Als Goldens | Facebook
> It hasn't been updated in a while.
> 
> Anyway, I was just hoping someone maybe had some experience with Al and could give me some peace of mind, or any thoughts. It's already too late to back out because I've already placed a deposit, but maybe if someone could help me think of what to ask him when I visit him again or over the phone?
> 
> Thanks and sorry for the wall of text


 I hope you didn't go with al bain he inbreeds his dogs he also says that his dogs are for seeing eye he's a lair I called and they never heard of him. He also doesn't show you where they are kept. We had to put ours down at the age of 2 for attacking and al did nothing to help just saying its our fault I have had goldens all my life never had one that bites its own owners. I'm trying to get the word out to get this guy out of business.


----------



## Lucas07

Crystalballl said:


> I too have talked to Al in the last couple of days. We were suppose to go up there this evening to pick a pup. I'm told theres only 2 left and lots of interest in them so if I don't get up there I'll have to wait for the next ones due in september I believe.
> 
> I don't know how I feel about it all. he was knowledgeable, but also a big know it all imo.


 I hope you didn't go with Al he inbreeds his dogs and not a good breeder. He also is a liar saying his dogs are seeing eye dogs I called no one has heard of him. We got a dog from him which we had to put down at the age of 2 cause he was attacking us I'm just trying to get the word out about Al and get him out of business.


----------



## Lucas07

I'm glad you didn't go with Al he's a joke I just feel bad for his puppies. He breeds all year around and the parents look old. I almost feel like he is a puppy mill way to many puppies. He also talks way to much like he is selling a car or something I just want this guy to stop inbreeding his dogs they are not healthy dogs.


----------



## carlyanne

*Allen Bain Golden Retrievers - info from an OWNER*

You can check out my blog for all info on my Finn who came from Allen Bain. You'll also be able to see some of the people who have also purchased pups from him.

Go to carlyanne.com and search Finn and Al Bain or Allen Bain.

*From what I've read on this site, I can't see comments from anyone who has actually purchased a dog from Al Bain.* (Other than the despicable Lucas07 who put their *PUPPY* down because it was aggressive and this is somehow the breeders fault that they didn't properly train their dog.)

Perhaps because I grew up on a farm I am more familiar with this type of Farm Breeder and I would NEVER spend thousands of dollars on a show dog.

My dog Finn was born on Jan 06, 2013. I contacted Al in Feb and went to view the puppies. He showed us the parents and a cousin before we got to meet the puppies. He brought us 3 (2 male & 1 female) from the litter that were not spoken for. We were NOT allowed to touch the puppies due to Al's concerns that we could contaminate them (as they were super young and of course, did not have all their shots). This was a very smart thing as most people had been viewing puppies all over the place.

We put down our deposit and were told that he would be ready to pick up in about a month - but could not give us a final date as it depends on the vet checks. Now this is another thing that I have seen people take as a negative. BUT coming from a farm, who the vet would come to visit to do check ups. You NEVER know the exact date. It depends on the vet's schedule. They give you a date and window of time and then let you know the morning of when they will arrive. You never know what emergencies will come up - so have to be flexible.

We called him back on the date he gave us to call and he let us know that we could come down that weekend.

We went to pick up our baby and before we could get our puppy we had to review the vet records, care and training instructions and sign the paperwork.

We then watched her give him a bath and dried him off. Finally once he was dry we got to hold him and take him home.

Al gave very clear instructions about how to feed and potty train the dogs. He breeds for health and intelligence and our Finn is smart as a whip.

As all of us Golden owners know, they are working dogs who need a job. They are VERY active and need to run a couple of hours a day (as well as swim!) to burn off the energy. I bet everyone on this forum can attest to that. I bet they can also attest to the days that they don't give their Golden the amount of exercise they need that they will chew shoes, walls, whatever because of boredom.

All puppies are aggressive to a certain extent. Same as babies. They try to get away with what they can and they will push you. I doubt many people here had a child that had tantrums or bit them as babies that gave them away or wanted to put them down.

Finn was a very bitey puppy. He wanted to wrestle and play and used his mouth. Puppy teeth are sharp and he bit hard as a little guy. But he grew out of it and we spent the time and money to go to puppy class to learn how to properly train and deal with a high-energy dog.

I encourage anyone to do their research on breeders. I recommend Allen Bain's dogs very highly and unless you need to spend a ridiculous amount of money on a registered Golden Retriever, I haven't had one better.

Please feel free to contact me directly for any questions at [email protected].

I'd also love to hear from other's who have actually purchased a dog from Allen Bain.


----------



## carlyanne

It was a*bsolutely your fault that he was aggressive*. A puppy is A BABY. They wrestle, bite and fight with each other to play. You have to train them and give them a job to do, which he would have told you from the get go. Golden's are one of the most docile breeds, family pets who look after children. *All dogs are a product of their environment.* Golden's are working dogs with massive amounts of energy, who won't even begin to start calming down until age 2-3 years. There is NO WAY that Allen Bain told you to bring your dog to him and he would beat it. 

I highly doubt you ever learned how to train your dog properly. I would like to know which trainers you went to and what they did to teach you.




Lucas07 said:


> Al also told us to bring our dog up to his place and he was going to beat it and he won't bite you guys again which I found was not right.


----------



## carlyanne

Seriously Lucas07? Al does NOT inbreed his dogs and is a fantastic breeder. You have said in a few different posts that you put down a 3 year old and 2 year old dog. So what was it? If you did any research on Golden Retrievers you would know that they are very active and are basically puppies until at least 2-3 years old.

If you had done what he said you would have signed up for puppy classes and learned how to train yourself and your dog properly. You should not be allowed to have another dog. I am disgusted by your lack of respect for an animals life. I'm surprised no one else has called you out on this.



Lucas07 said:


> I hope you didn't go with Al he inbreeds his dogs and not a good breeder. He also is a liar saying his dogs are seeing eye dogs I called no one has heard of him. We got a dog from him which we had to put down at the age of 2 cause he was attacking us I'm just trying to get the word out about Al and get him out of business.


----------



## AmbikaGR

carlyannedotcom said:


> You can check out my blog for all info on my Finn who came from Allen Bain. You'll also be able to see some of the people who have also purchased pups from him.
> 
> Go to carlyanne.com and search Finn and Al Bain or Allen Bain.
> 
> *From what I've read on this site, I can't see comments from anyone who has actually purchased a dog from Al Bain.*
> 
> Perhaps because I grew up on a farm I am more familiar with this type of Farm Breeder and I would NEVER spend thousands of dollars on a show dog.
> 
> My dog Finn was born on Jan 06, 2013. I contacted Al in Feb and went to view the puppies. He showed us the parents and a cousin before we got to meet the puppies. He brought us 3 (2 male & 1 female) from the litter that were not spoken for. We were NOT allowed to touch the puppies due to Al's concerns that we could contaminate them (as they were super young and of course, did not have all their shots). This was a very smart thing as most people had been viewing puppies all over the place.
> 
> We put down our deposit and were told that he would be ready to pick up in about a month - but could not give us a final date as it depends on the vet checks. Now this is another thing that I have seen people take as a negative. BUT coming from a farm, who the vet would come to visit to do check ups. You NEVER know the exact date. It depends on the vet's schedule. They give you a date and window of time and then let you know the morning of when they will arrive. You never know what emergencies will come up - so have to be flexible.
> 
> We called him back on the date he gave us to call and he let us know that we could come down that weekend.
> 
> We went to pick up our baby and before we could get our puppy we had to review the vet records, care and training instructions and sign the paperwork.
> 
> We then watched her give him a bath and dried him off. Finally once he was dry we got to hold him and take him home.
> 
> Al gave very clear instructions about how to feed and potty train the dogs. He breeds for health and intelligence and our Finn is smart as a whip.
> 
> As all of us Golden owners know, they are working dogs who need a job. They are VERY active and need to run a couple of hours a day (as well as swim!) to burn off the energy. I bet everyone on this forum can attest to that. I bet they can also attest to the days that they don't give their Golden the amount of exercise they need that they will chew shoes, walls, whatever because of boredom.
> 
> All puppies are aggressive to a certain extent. Same as babies. They try to get away with what they can and they will push you. I doubt many people here had a child that had tantrums or bit them as babies that gave them away or wanted to put them down.
> 
> Finn was a very bitey puppy. He wanted to wrestle and play and used his mouth. Puppy teeth are sharp and he bit hard as a little guy. But he grew out of it and we spent the time and money to go to puppy class to learn how to properly train and deal with a high-energy dog.
> 
> I encourage anyone to do their research on breeders. I recommend Allen Bain's dogs very highly and unless you need to spend a ridiculous amount of money on a registered Golden Retriever, I haven't had one better.
> 
> Please feel free to contact me directly for any questions at [email protected].
> 
> I'd also love to hear from other's who have actually purchased a dog from Allen Bain.





carlyannedotcom said:


> You are TERRIBLE for putting down a dog at age 3. It was a*bsolutely your fault that he was aggressive*. A puppy is A BABY. They wrestle, bite and fight with each other to play. You have to train them and give them a job to do, which he would have told you from the get go. Golden's are one of the most docile breeds, family pets who look after children. *All dogs are a product of their environment.* Golden's are working dogs with massive amounts of energy, who won't even begin to start calming down until age 2-3 years. There is NO WAY that Allen Bain told you to bring your dog to him and he would beat it.
> 
> I highly doubt you ever learned how to train your dog properly. I would like to know which trainers you went to and what they did to teach you.





carlyannedotcom said:


> Seriously Lucaso7? You are terrible. Al does NOT inbreed his dogs and is a fantastic breeder. You have said in a few different posts that you put down a 3 year old and 2 year old dog. So what was it? If you did any research on Golden Retrievers you would know that they are very active and are basically puppies until at least 2-3 years old.
> 
> If you had done what he said you would have signed up for puppy classes and learned how to train yourself and your dog properly. You should not be allowed to have another dog. I am disgusted by your lack of respect for an animals life. I'm surprised no one else has called you out on this.



Welcome to the GRF!!! :wavey:
Hope you hang around and pick up from some of the others here. :uhoh:


----------



## carlyanne

AmbikaGR said:


> Welcome to the GRF!!! :wavey:
> Hope you hang around and pick up from some of the others here. :uhoh:



Thank you! I'm passionate and can't stand when people trash others due to ignorance


----------



## AmbikaGR

carlyannedotcom said:


> Thank you! I'm passionate and can't stand when people trash others due to ignorance



Then why would YOU do it? Do you know the story behind Lucas07 and his dog? Do you think that a vet would have just put down a dog because a person said it was aggressive? Do you not think it is possible that a Golden could be aggressive? 
I too am passionate about the breed BUT......... :doh:


----------



## carlyanne

I would love to know the real story behind Lucas07 & their dog, but can't find any reports of a 2 or 3 year old golden biting their owners and needing to be put down. Please let me know if you do know it.

I also did not trash them or make an ignorant statement. 

I'm actually shocked that more people didn't comment on the fact that they put down a puppy for being aggressive.

What I do see is someone who is posting multiple versions of a story with different facts. Someone who put down their 2 or 3 year old dog who is trashing a breeder on every persons positive mention of him. And posting that the breeder told them to bring it there and he will beat it. I asked Al about these comments and he had never heard from this person and wanted the information I had to track them down so he could rescue the animal.

There are lots of high kill shelters that will put down an animal based on the owners assessment & there are a lot of vets who will do it for the money.

Dogs are products of their environment and puppies bite. Finn was a mouthy puppy (as are most Golden's that I've heard of) but we worked with him while he was teething and he learned not to bite. I'm sure there is a bad apple in every bunch, but I've never known a nasty Golden and I would bet he could have been rehabilitated with proper training. 





AmbikaGR said:


> Then why would YOU do it? Do you know the story behind Lucas07 and his dog? Do you think that a vet would have just put down a dog because a person said it was aggressive? Do you not think it is possible that a Golden could be aggressive?
> I too am passionate about the breed BUT......... :doh:


----------



## DanaRuns

carlyannedotcom said:


> Seriously Lucaso7? You are terrible. Al does NOT inbreed his dogs and is a fantastic breeder.


Aha. Finally, something we can verify in this war of words. Can you please post either:

1. The k9data.com link to your puppy's pedigree; or if you don't have it up, then

2. The registered names of your puppy's sire and dam?

Thanks. And welcome. We all share your passion.


----------



## carlyanne

Hi DanaRuns.

My dog is not registered, nor is Allen Bain a registered breeder, as has been established, so I can't post any of that information.



DanaRuns said:


> Aha. Finally, something we can verify in this war of words. Can you please post either:
> 
> 1. The k9data.com link to your puppy's pedigree; or if you don't have it up, then
> 
> 2. The registered names of your puppy's sire and dam?
> 
> Thanks. And welcome. We all share your passion.


----------



## Eowyn

carlyannedotcom said:


> Hi DanaRuns.
> 
> My dog is not registered, nor is Allen Bain a registered breeder, as has been established, so I can't post any of that information.


Then how do you know your dog isn't inbred??? If you have never seen the pedigree there is no way to know that. I am asking out of curiosity, not accusation.

ETA: I don't think a dog has to be registered to be entered into k9data if that helps any.


----------



## carlyanne

I guess I can't know for 100% - but I trust Allen Bain's word and have had a very positive experience with him & my dog. Viewing the completely different pair of parents and hearing his history, well I went with my gut. 

I honestly can't believe that I've got comments on my posts and am the ONLY person who commented that someone put down an aggressive puppy.



Eowyn said:


> Then how do you know your dog isn't inbred??? If you have never seen the pedigree there is no way to know that. I am asking out of curiosity, not accusation.


----------



## Megora

carlyannedotcom said:


> My dog is not registered, nor is Allen Bain a registered breeder, as has been established, so I can't post any of that information.


Did he give you anything by way of a pedigree at all? Or how can you verify dogs are or are not closely related without a carefully kept pedigree?


----------



## carlyanne

I have the names of the parents & grandparents and the states that all 4 came from.

I'm actually really curious why people are caring so much about this?

And I'm also curious why no one is concerned that someone put down a puppy for being aggressive?



Megora said:


> Did he give you anything by way of a pedigree at all? Or how can you verify dogs are or are not closely related without a carefully kept pedigree?


----------



## DanaRuns

carlyannedotcom said:


> I honestly can't believe that I've got comments on my posts and am the ONLY person who commented that someone put down an aggressive puppy.


We really have no way to judge what the right side of this story is, so far. We've got two very adamant people, both claiming the high ground, on opposite sides. Neither one has posted anywhere else in this forum, and therefore we don't know anything about them. So it's not like we have much to go on.

I agree that putting down a 2-3 year old Golden for aggression is very surprising, and it raises serious questions. However, I think most people on this forum would agree that if a Golden is going to have that kind of problem, it's likely to come from a back yard breeder like Al Bain. So, again, no one is taking sides for or against you. I think we are all as passionate about the breed as you, but just don't have enough information to stand behind either one of you at this point.


----------



## DanaRuns

carlyannedotcom said:


> I have the names of the parents & grandparents and the states that all 4 came from.


Great! Whatcha got?



> I'm actually really curious why people are caring so much about this?


There is an accusation of inbreeding and a denial. The easiest way to know who is right is to see the lineage of the puppies from Al Bain. We are all very good at deciphering the information from the identities of dogs.

Also, pedigrees tell a lot about a breeder. There is a ton of information that can be gleaned from knowing a breeder's practices. And since there is no other hard information for us to see, this is a great place to start.



> And I'm also curious why no one is concerned that someone put down a puppy for being aggressive?


A three-year old dog is not a puppy. And some dogs need to be put down. We don't know enough to opine about whether or not this particular dog needed to be put down for aggression.


----------



## Megora

carlyannedotcom said:


> I have the names of the parents & grandparents and the states that all 4 came from.
> 
> I'm actually really curious why people are caring so much about this?


I think it's curiosity as far as what he is breeding. You would be surprised how easily people can put together pedigrees using K9data and then looking up on OFFA.Org to locate information. 

There are some crooked breeders out there... <- I heard of a Canadian one who has been fabricating titles on her dogs and has for years just to make herself look more legitimate. 

That's why if you have fishy sounding breeder operations - generally ask lots of questions and keep going. 



> And I'm also curious why no one is concerned that someone put down a puppy for being aggressive?


Failure to comment on does not indicate agreement or support. I think a lot of people didn't know what to think about that person's accusations - especially given what little information was provided, and let it go. 

On this forum - you can not openly attack fellow members or call them out.


----------



## Eowyn

carlyannedotcom said:


> I honestly can't believe that I've got comments on my posts and am the ONLY person who commented that someone put down an aggressive puppy.


Probably for a variety of reasons, the biggest of which (I would assume) being a lot of us are experienced enough to know that backyard breeders often don't breed goldens true to the standard (speaking both of conformation and temperament) and aggression issues in a dog that was as poorly socialized as described would be fairly normal. I would _expect_ behavior issues a mile long if that is the case. But if the person really does have contradicting posts as you say (I have not checked this myself) it would hurt the credibility.


----------



## carlyanne

DanaRuns said:


> We really have no way to judge what the right side of this story is, so far. We've got two very adamant people, both claiming the high ground, on opposite sides. Neither one has posted anywhere else in this forum, and therefore we don't know anything about them. So it's not like we have much to go on.
> 
> I agree that putting down a 2-3 year old Golden for aggression is very surprising, and it raises serious questions. However, I think most people on this forum would agree that if a Golden is going to have that kind of problem, it's likely to come from a back yard breeder like Al Bain. So, again, no one is taking sides for or against you. I think we are all as passionate about the breed as you, but just don't have enough information to stand behind either one of you at this point.



I appreciate your points. I have only had dogs from shelters and backyard breeders in my dog owning history (2 Golden's, 1 Australian Sheppard, 1 Hound Mutt, 1 Pitbull, 1 MinPin, 1 American Staffordshire Terrier). All of them had the potential to be aggressive but with proper training and love they were wonderful pets with the MinPin being the most aggressive.

I generally found that most pure bred dogs tend to be inbred and aggressive. So interesting and good to know that your experience & thoughts are different.

I found this forum because of all the emails I've had from owners of Allen Bain dogs and will continue to post here to build credibility.


----------



## Eowyn

carlyannedotcom said:


> I appreciate your points. I have only had dogs from shelters and backyard breeders in my dog owning history (2 Golden's, 1 Australian Sheppard, 1 Hound Mutt, 1 Pitbull, 1 MinPin, 1 American Staffordshire Terrier). All of them had the potential to be aggressive but with proper training and love they were wonderful pets with the MinPin being the most aggressive.
> 
> I generally found that most pure bred dogs tend to be inbred and aggressive. So interesting and good to know that your experience & thoughts are different.
> 
> I found this forum because of all the emails I've had from owners of Allen Bain dogs and will continue to post here to build credibility.


Have you ever spent time with a responsible breeders dogs? Again I am asking out of curiosity not accusation, but if you have never had a well bred dog than what scale do you have to say your breeder is breeding high quality dogs? Most well bred dogs do not tend to be aggressive! And inbred, well that one is hard to debate since there is no hard and fast definition. What COI would indicate inbred to you? The average golden has a COI of 9 something which is not inbred.


----------



## Megora

> I generally found that most pure bred dogs tend to be inbred and aggressive. So interesting and good to know that your experience & thoughts are different.


 This is such a huge big deal thingy for me to respond to, and I imagine a lot of people here have their gums flapping as well....  

Having been around a lot of purebred dogs through obedience and now conformation - I can't say strongly enough that it really matters who breeds the dogs, the purposes they breed the dogs for, and how careful they are as far as preserving the breed standards when it comes to looks, ability, and temperament. 

It is possible to buy purebred and REGISTERED dogs who are inbred and have terrible temperaments - I know, because our first golden was such a case (father/daughter breeding). That's why it matters where you buy dogs from. If you are going to buy a dog instead adopting - buy from the right places. 

Good luck! 

And please keep in mind - what goes on with the breeder is not a judgment on you and your dog. Many of us have purchased dogs from people who were legitimate at the time and went bad really fast. And what happens in those cases is you love your dog, enjoy every minute of life you have with that dog, and go somewhere else next time. The first step though is always acknowledging the mistake or what's wrong.


----------



## DanaRuns

carlyannedotcom said:


> I appreciate your points. I have only had dogs from shelters and backyard breeders in my dog owning history (2 Golden's, 1 Australian Sheppard, 1 Hound Mutt, 1 Pitbull, 1 MinPin, 1 American Staffordshire Terrier). All of them had the potential to be aggressive but with proper training and love they were wonderful pets with the MinPin being the most aggressive.
> 
> I generally found that most pure bred dogs tend to be inbred and aggressive. So interesting and good to know that your experience & thoughts are different.
> 
> I found this forum because of all the emails I've had from owners of Allen Bain dogs and will continue to post here to build credibility.


Good! I'm glad you will continue to post here! And I hope you will post pictures of Finn for us all to swoon over. 

You've had a bunch of dogs, for sure. No newbie in you!  But the statement "I generally found that most pure bred dogs tend to be inbred and aggressive" is _definitely not true_ of well-bred Golden Retrievers. Stick around, get involved in discussions, it will open your eyes. The difference between a BYB Golden and a well-bred Golden can be astonishing (I have both at present). Temperament is definitely one of the things that is consistently good in well-bred Goldens.

I currently have four dogs (two rescues, two show dogs) and two cats (both rescues). While I've owned a number of other breeds and mixes, I've had at least one Golden Retriever ever since I was 10 years old (which was a long, long, long time ago).


----------



## carlyanne

Actually - the one Australian Shepard was a gift to our family from our friend who was a well known Aussie Breeder out of Sunderland - Brenda Hadden (sp?) was her name, but I don't recall any more. He was a lovely dog, but fairly timid and was too small to show, so she gave him to us.
We spent lots of time with her dogs growing up and they were wonderful, other than one of the males who was a stud, he wasn't a huge fan of kids.

I'm certainly not knocking registered breeders and I agree that you should do your research before buying. Better yet, you should rescue someone sitting on death row who needs a chance. 

But not everyone can afford to have a registered dog and honestly I hate to see someone bad mouthing someone else. It doesn't seem to me that many people on here commenting about Allen Bain know him, actually went to his farm, spoke to him or viewed the dogs, so I feel obligated to share my story and opinion. It was not a puppy mill, Finn was vetted and had a clean bill of health and Al & his wife are not terrible people who would offer to "beat a dog so it doesn't bite". In fact, one of the dogs we met had been returned to Al as the owner moved out of the country. The dog understood Chinese commands (as the owner was Chinese) and he was in the process of retraining him in English so he could be adopted to a new home. Al was very thorough in his screening process with us as well, which I appreciated. His training techniques really worked for us, we followed them to a 'T' and to be responsible owners, took more classes from a registered trainer.

For someone to have put down a dog they say was aggressive and are hiding behind anonymity and trashing someone across numerous other positive posts, who I have a high level of respect for, well it doesn't sit right with me. I'm an open book and have my 2nd A+ Golden Retriever from a backyard breeder.

To each his own. It's not right to try to ruin someone's business UNLESS they are unethical or illegal.

P.s. Here we are earlier this year after graduation.











Eowyn said:


> Have you ever spent time with a responsible breeders dogs? Again I am asking out of curiosity not accusation, but if you have never had a well bred dog than what scale do you have to say your breeder is breeding high quality dogs? Most well bred dogs do not tend to be aggressive! And inbred, well that one is hard to debate since there is not hard and fast definition. What COI would indicate inbred to you? The average golden has a COI of 9 something which is not inbred.


----------



## Eowyn

carlyanne said:


> To each his own. It's not right to try to ruin someone's business UNLESS they are unethical or illegal.


But you think it is ok to not properly socialize puppies? That alone drastically increases the chances of aggression in a dog (plus many, many other issues). Behavior problems (often caused by lack of socialization) are the number 1 cause of death in dogs under the age of 3, not disease.

In regards to the ethical part of the statement.


----------



## carlyanne

You have got to be kidding me. 

*No where in any of my posts did I say that it is ok to not properly socialize puppies.*

I am actually shocked that in any of my statements you gleaned that I stand for doing wrong by animals.




Eowyn said:


> But you think it is ok to not properly socialize puppies? That alone drastically increases the chances of aggression in a dog (plus many, many other issues). Behavior problems (often caused by lack of socialization) are the number 1 cause of death in dogs under the age of 3, not disease.
> 
> In regards to the ethical part of the statement.


----------



## Jamm

Just popping in to say not every comment needs to be rude!  You can get your point across without such negativity... It'll get you a lot further in discussion.


----------



## DanaRuns

I don't think Carlyanne is being rude. I think she's just being passionate, and she doesn't understand why everyone isn't immediately agreeing with "the obvious," and she's surprised that her own posts are being examined. After all, she's the "good guy."


----------



## Eowyn

carlyanne said:


> You have got to be kidding me.
> 
> *No where in any of my posts did I say that it is ok to not properly socialize puppies.*
> 
> I am actually shocked that in any of my statements you gleaned that I stand for doing wrong by animals.


Now I am confused. Proper socialization includes _at least_ 50 people playing with the puppy during the first 8 weeks. 100 people is preferred. (Plus a huge amount of other things, but we won't go into those since no info on other things has been given by people who have gotten pups from the breeder). If Al doesn't allow people to hold the puppies then he can't be meeting that requirement. 

Again, nothing I say it meant as an insult or offense, and please feel free to say so if it comes across that way and I will do my best to not let it happen again and will offer my sincerest apologizes. :wavey:


----------



## ArchersMom

Carlyanne, you yourself described your breeder as a "farm breeder." I can't speak for everyone but that description doesn't lead me to believe that the puppies they produce are getting excellent socialization. To me, "farm breeders" would be those that typically breed actual working dogs like herders, not sporting dogs like goldens. They're usually only cared for slightly better than the livestock. Left to roam while they're in heat, not carefully bred to a stud whom compliments them, etc. Added to the other posters description of their own terribly socialized dogs, I would not think the puppies produced by this breeder are well socialized.


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## carlyanne

I am passionate and am standing up for my dog and my breeder - against someone who is trashing him saying that his dog was put down at 2 or 3 years old due to aggression. As an owner of one of the puppies from the same breeder I am shocked that this would be the case, and that not one person commented and asked for specifics. I read what Lucas07 wrote and was sick to my stomach, so sick that I signed up to this site to write about my own experience.

I do not need anyone to agree with me. I am not shocked that people are responding, questioning or commenting on my posts, nor do I need to be "the good guy." I'm someone with first hand experience who voiced that on a forum spreading the good word about a wonderful breeder of my dog. 

I am aware that the majority here would have & did purchase registered Golden's. But to say someone/some breeder is not good, without doing the research, visiting the farm and having a conversation with the breeder, well it's all just hearsay.

I was shocked that Eowyn said that I support improper socialization of puppies. Al made the decision not to let everyone hold the 4 week old puppies as another couple there had come directly from a different breeder and he didn't want potential contamination. I respect that and completely agree. 

ArchersMom - the farm is located in Hastings on wetlands and the adult dogs are bird dogs, who work as duck hunters, so it doesn't seem strange to me. The other poster said the dog was aggressive and attacked them so they put it down. I think we can all agree that dogs are a product of their environment. If an impeccably bred Golden is not exercised, trained or properly cared for, he could also become aggressive. It has been proven time and time again that there are lots of bad dog owners.

All of the owners of Al Bain's dogs that have contacted me to share photos & stories are positive and have had excellent experiences, including being repeat customers.

My guy had and has no socialization issues, though as a small girl with a large dog who is the same size as me, we needed puppy classes to learn how to work together. From my experience with dogs and breeders, I recommend Allen Bain as someone to check out.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and mine is the minority voice here as I do not have a registered Golden. I appreciate the lively discussion we've had and I still stand by my first hand knowledge and experience that he is a good man and a good breeder.


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## AmbikaGR

carlyanne said:


> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and mine is the minority voice here as I do not have a registered Golden. I appreciate the lively discussion we've had and I still stand by my first hand knowledge and experience that he is a good man and a good breeder.



What exactly makes him a "good breeder" of pure bred Golden Retrievers?


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## ArchersMom

carlyanne said:


> I appreciate the lively discussion we've had and I still stand by my first hand knowledge and experience that he is a good man and a good breeder.


 You can certainly say he is a good man and nobody here is attacking him as a person. But I don't think you have enough knowledge to know if he is truly a good breeder. What scale are you really using here besides your personal interaction. Have you compared his socialization process with other top breeders? Do you even know what they are. How is he picking the dogs he breeds, except throwing the two together whom he owns. We can't even prove whether they're truly inbred or not because they're unregistered. And why is he breeding unregistered dogs? There's a reason, because if he could register them he'd make more money and I'm sure he would like to. How does he know the dogs he's breeding don't have hip dysplasia or any other terrible genetic disease if they're not tested for anything? 

Please, tell me what makes him a good breeder besides providing basic care to his puppies.


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## carlyanne

My dog & my experience with him makes him a good breeder. 

The other family members who have contacted me to share their photos & experiences of owning one of Allen Bain's dogs make him a good breeder.

Again, I stand by my experience and my opinion. You all have your own experiences and opinions. Not all registered dogs come from great breeders. Not all unregistered dogs come from bad breeders. The dog & breeder that are right for you may not be right for him or her or me.



AmbikaGR said:


> What exactly makes him a "good breeder" of pure bred Golden Retrievers?


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## ArchersMom

carlyanne said:


> My dog & my experience with him makes him a good breeder.
> 
> The other family members who have contacted me to share their photos & experiences of owning one of Allen Bain's dogs make him a good breeder.
> 
> Again, I stand by my experience and my opinion. You all have your own experiences and opinions. Not all registered dogs come from great breeders. Not all unregistered dogs come from bad breeders. The dog & breeder that are right for you may not be right for him or her or me.


Your personal experience says nothing about him as a breeder. You are happy with your dog, that says something about your dog only and not the breeder. Sure a great dog can come out of a BYB, they can come from puppy mills too. I'm asking you what he does to stack the odds that the dogs he produces will be healthy and correct to the breed. That should be the purpose of breeding, to better the breed.


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## GoldensGirl

The content of this thread suggests that a reminder of several rules is in order:

_7. GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members will refrain from assassinating the character of another.

8. GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members are to avoid “Piling-on”. 

13. GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members will treat other members with respect._

I encourage everyone to revisit the rules posted here: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...6-grf-board-rules-registration-agreement.html.

Please read your posts over before you click the Submit Reply button and make sure that you are not in violation. Differences of opinion and strongly held convictions do not excuse anyone from the requirements of civility.

Thank you.


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## carlyanne

This started because of Lucas07 writing similar angry message over a couple weeks with different facts, saying he had to put their 2 or 3 year old dog down because it was so aggressive. He said Allen Bain runs a puppy mill, is a joke, inbreeds dogs, is a liar, their dog was aggressive since day 1, and that he knows 5 people who were bitten and attacked by their own dogs from Allen Bain, that Allen Bain told him to bring the dog back and he would beat it of him AND called for the ending of his business.

He said nothing about what they did to help/work with it/fix it - other than take it to get put down. 

I still can't believe no one got their feathers ruffled by that and my positive experience & opinion has had this much conversation.

See Here http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/search.php?searchid=6745626


If you don't agree with me and have a different opinion, it's your right. Please feel free to speak to Allen Bain directly as he will best tell you his business details, and I honestly don't know, care or remember the answers to all your questions.

I know what my experience is and that is what I have been saying to this audience all along. He is a good breeder of unregistered Golden Retrievers. He has lovely dogs from what I have experienced and I recommend him. Anything other than first hand experience is just speculation. 




ArchersMom said:


> You can certainly say he is a good man and nobody here is attacking him as a person. But I don't think you have enough knowledge to know if he is truly a good breeder. What scale are you really using here besides your personal interaction. Have you compared his socialization process with other top breeders? Do you even know what they are. How is he picking the dogs he breeds, except throwing the two together whom he owns. We can't even prove whether they're truly inbred or not because they're unregistered. And why is he breeding unregistered dogs? There's a reason, because if he could register them he'd make more money and I'm sure he would like to. How does he know the dogs he's breeding don't have hip dysplasia or any other terrible genetic disease if they're not tested for anything?
> 
> Please, tell me what makes him a good breeder besides providing basic care to his puppies.


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## goldy1

Megora posted (in part) ..."Failure to comment on does not indicate agreement or support. ...".

I completely agree. 
These discussions rarely go anywhere when minds are already made up.

What makes a reputable breeder can be determined from an objective group of criteria (GRCA) not anecdotal experiences of a few supporters.


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## Prism Goldens

Reading this lively thread altogether this AM- several things strike me. One, this fellow sells puppies for nearly nothing- on the chance that Carlyanne's puppy lives a long life and she doesnt care about registration, etc, she may have just what she wanted in him. 
Two, several people asked for ped info- and she states she knows parents and g'parents names, but for whatever reason didn't post them. Even if she didn't get any ped info w/the puppy, who'd not want it if they had an entire forum willing to get a pedigree together from her limited info? I'd ask you Carlyanne to post your dog's name, and the names of his parents and grandparents when you come back here. And someone will gift you with a link to your dog's k9data page which will be created. 
Three, more people were appalled at the alleged tale of the offer to beat the dog than the act of putting the dog down- when puppies are not exposed to lots and lots of people they can be aggressive. There's more to it than that, but that's a piece of it. I don't doubt at all that this man is a decent man, and he could even be a decent breeder of a breed that doesn't need so many experiences from the whelping box- but what I hear from all the posts on him, yours included, is that the puppies he raises are neglected - for Golden puppies. 
I'm glad you are taking classes w/your dog, and hope that you continue to enhance his life by exposing him to as much as you can. As you get involved in Goldens, you will come to see that just by virtue of the price (I think $430? was quoted) there is no way any of these puppies started life with the best of possibilities in front of them but owners like you can change the path they started on to a future as great companions. I wish that for all of this man's puppies.


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## DanaRuns

You've got to be kidding. Ridiculous that Carlyanne was banned, based on the posts here (unless something was deleted that I don't know about). You might as well ban me, too. I'm just as passionate about Goldens as she is, and would likely be similarly outraged were someone to attack my breeders the way hers was.

Is this political correctness gone too far?


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## Rob's GRs

DanaRuns said:


> You've got to be kidding. Ridiculous that Carlyanne was banned, based on the posts here (unless something was deleted that I don't know about). You might as well ban me, too. I'm just as passionate about Goldens as she is, and would likely be similarly outraged were someone to attack my breeders the way hers was.
> 
> Is this political correctness gone too far?


Be advised that the discussion of members being banned is prohibited and is one of the board rules. The reasons for banning a member are between the moderator team and the member that was banned and may or may not even be anything close to what you've posted. 

thank you for your understanding in this matter.


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## DanaRuns

Rob's GRs said:


> Be advised that the discussion of members being banned is prohibited and is one of the board rules. The reasons for banning a member are between the moderator team and the member that was banned and may or may not even be anything close to what you've posted.
> 
> thank you for your understanding in this matter.


It's a brave new world...

O wonder!
How many goodly creatures are there here!
How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world,
That has such people in't.


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## Eowyn

DanaRuns said:


> You've got to be kidding. Ridiculous that Carlyanne was banned, based on the posts here (unless something was deleted that I don't know about). You might as well ban me, too. I'm just as passionate about Goldens as she is, and would likely be similarly outraged were someone to attack my breeders the way hers was.
> 
> Is this political correctness gone too far?


That does bring up a good question for the mods. When you ban someone, do you tell them why or pm them a warning? Or do you just ban them and assume they can figure out what they did? Or does it depend? I am wondering what the standard policy is on the matter.


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## Rob's GRs

Any matters concerning members are discussed by the entire Mod team and brought to a vote as to if anything should be issued or not. No matter what is issued (warning/banning) the member gets a notification of what was wrong.

Now so as not to have this thread closed let's keep it on track.

Thanks


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## Goldens R Great

DanaRuns said:


> You've got to be kidding. Ridiculous that Carlyanne was banned, based on the posts here (unless something was deleted that I don't know about). You might as well ban me, too. I'm just as passionate about Goldens as she is, and would likely be similarly outraged were someone to attack my breeders the way hers was.
> 
> Is this political correctness gone too far?


This isn't the only thread Carlyanne posted on. She started her own thread last night and I was quite surprised what she wrote. She edited it a few hours after she posted it. Enough said!


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## Dancer

Megora said:


> This is such a huge big deal thingy for me to respond to, and I imagine a lot of people here have their gums flapping as well....
> 
> Having been around a lot of purebred dogs through obedience and now conformation - I can't say strongly enough that it really matters who breeds the dogs, the purposes they breed the dogs for, and how careful they are as far as preserving the breed standards when it comes to looks, ability, and temperament.
> 
> It is possible to buy purebred and REGISTERED dogs who are inbred and have terrible temperaments - I know, because our first golden was such a case (father/daughter breeding). That's why it matters where you buy dogs from. If you are going to buy a dog instead adopting - buy from the right places.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> And please keep in mind - what goes on with the breeder is not a judgment on you and your dog. Many of us have purchased dogs from people who were legitimate at the time and went bad really fast. And what happens in those cases is you love your dog, enjoy every minute of life you have with that dog, and go somewhere else next time. The first step though is always acknowledging the mistake or what's wrong.



AMEN!! 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Selli-Belle

Megora said:


> It is possible to buy purebred and REGISTERED dogs who are inbred and have terrible temperaments - I know, because our first golden was such a case (father/daughter breeding). That's why it matters where you buy dogs from. If you are going to buy a dog instead adopting - buy from the right places.


I myself would never recommend someone do a father/daughter breeding but even with that degree of inbreeding the likelihood of the pups having bad temperaments is based more on the temperaments of the parents than the inbreeding itself. Last week I met a Golden who was from an oops litter of father/daughter and he had an exceptional temperament. He is six and was leading a bunch of pups on a merry chase around the play yard. I know both of this dog's parents and they have similar classic Golden temperaments.


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## Dancer

To me it's simple with this gentleman. An individual may have had a great experience with him, may have a healthy dog who lives many years, may observe his live for his animals, BUT that doesn't make him a 'good' and 'reputable' breeder. There is NO ANIMAL out there (dog, cat, armadillo, whatever) that a person can guarantee will be healthy and free of genetic issues for 8 years. Unrealistic warranties/guarantees like that (if in fact, that is what this gentleman claims- as was in the OP) are simply not possible. Additionally, there is no way that a person can say their breeding dogs come from lines with no genetic defects. That is simply not true and not possible- so a person who claims that either is hopelessly clueless about genetics and the breed (so shouldn't breed dogs) or being deceitful (so shouldn't breed dogs). Again, this is based in what the OP posted- not in anything I've heard the man say (as I don't know him) but it's worth putting in writing (again) to educate anyone looking for a pup. If such a line if dogs DID exist they would sell for a LOT more than a paltry $430!! And I'd already have 2 !! 

Registration is another big one. I understand most ppl don't want to show their dogs, but it is important to know that a reputable breeder will have registered dogs and registered litters. Period. 

Clearances. Clearances. Clearances. Clearances. It is important enough that I wrote it 4 times and almost used capitals the whole way through. If the parents (and ideally the 3-4 generation preceding the parents) don't have the 'Core 4' then you don't have a reputable breeder. Non-negotiable. These clearances exist for a reason, not because reputable breeders would rather spend money on testing then a new pair of Italian leather pumps. I can assure you, that's often not the case! And ask for proof. Look it up yourself on the offa website. Don't take a breeders word for it just because they're nice and you trust them! I did- 3 times! One if my dogs dropped dead at 5 yrs. None if the three have a full set of clearances in either side according to the offa website. Shame on me for not knowing better- but now I do and so do you! Verify everything yourself. 

Anyways, these are the key points I wanted to make. I also prefer to see titled parents, but that's more my preference. Just remember a good person doesn't automatically equal a good breeder. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Megora

Selli-Belle said:


> I myself would never recommend someone do a father/daughter breeding but even with that degree of inbreeding the likelihood of the pups having bad temperaments is based more on the temperaments of the parents than the inbreeding itself.


True, but it again depends on who is breeding what dogs. 

And more important than temperament... we lost that dog at age 6 to what was a highly hereditary condition. Dad died early. So did our dog and a couple littermates that we know of (there were 5-6 puppies, we located a couple owners and found they lost their dogs early to the same thing we lost our dog to). A dog may have a nice temperament inherited from his parents, but with that degree of inbreeding... what else do they inherit?


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## Lucas07

First of all carlyanne you do not know what you are talking about my dog was attacking the family and its our fault I had a new born at the time so keep the dog and have him kill her you are a dumb person. We did everything for that dog the last time I called Al Bain he said he didn't want the dog back and for us to put him down. I have had 4 goldens before this one I know how to train dogs I have NEVER had a dog that attacks. My 3rd dog we got from a farm in blackstock and he was the best dog. If you go on kijiji he has new puppies every month ummm no good breeder sells his puppies every month of the year PUPPY MILL. So before you talk **** learn the facts maybe that's why you are banned from here. I bet you are Al bains friend ha


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## CAROLINA MOM

Rob's GRs said:


> Be advised that the discussion of members being banned is prohibited and is one of the board rules. The reasons for banning a member are between the moderator team and the member that was banned and may or may not even be anything close to what you've posted.
> 
> thank you for your understanding in this matter.


A reminder to all, please take a few minutes to Review GRF Rule #15 as follows:




> 15. GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members are prohibited in posting the following types of threads: - Due to the nature of certain threads, and the outcome that usually follows certain threads, we do NOT allow the following types of disgruntle threads : “I am leaving this board”, “I am taking a break from this board”, or ”what happen to this (disciplined) member?”; additionally, any discussions or threads about a member's warning or banning are prohibited. All of these types of threads cause more issues, and many times more drama on the board. All actions taken upon a GRF board member is strictly between that member and the GRF Forum Management Team. Also any discussion that mentions self hurting or suicidal thoughts or actions will not be permitted. These are very serious topics and need professional assistance, more than a Golden Retriever Forum can provide. Any kind of the previously mentioned threads may be closed and/or deleted. If a member persists in continuing to create such types of threads, the GRF Forum Management Team will take action against the member that may include temporary and/or permanent suspension of a member's account.


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## Lucas07

carlyanne said:


> This started because of Lucas07 writing similar angry message over a couple weeks with different facts, saying he had to put their 2 or 3 year old dog down because it was so aggressive. He said Allen Bain runs a puppy mill, is a joke, inbreeds dogs, is a liar, their dog was aggressive since day 1, and that he knows 5 people who were bitten and attacked by their own dogs from Allen Bain, that Allen Bain told him to bring the dog back and he would beat it of him AND called for the ending of his business.
> 
> He said nothing about what they did to help/work with it/fix it - other than take it to get put down.
> 
> I still can't believe no one got their feathers ruffled by that and my positive experience & opinion has had this much conversation.
> 
> See Here http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/search.php?searchid=6745626
> 
> 
> If you don't agree with me and have a different opinion, it's your right. Please feel free to speak to Allen Bain directly as he will best tell you his business details, and I honestly don't know, care or remember the answers to all your questions.
> 
> I know what my experience is and that is what I have been saying to this audience all along. He is a good breeder of unregistered Golden Retrievers. He has lovely dogs from what I have experienced and I recommend him. Anything other than first hand experience is just speculation.





DanaRuns said:


> We really have no way to judge what the right side of this story is, so far. We've got two very adamant people, both claiming the high ground, on opposite sides. Neither one has posted anywhere else in this forum, and therefore we don't know anything about them. So it's not like we have much to go on.
> 
> I agree that putting down a 2-3 year old Golden for aggression is very surprising, and it raises serious questions. However, I think most people on this forum would agree that if a Golden is going to have that kind of problem, it's likely to come from a back yard breeder like Al Bain. So, again, no one is taking sides for or against you. I think we are all as passionate about the breed as you, but just don't have enough information to stand behind either one of you at this point.


 We had to put him down the town that we live in took him cause he attacked my mom so bad she had to go to the hospital. He would attack for no reason even when I was pregnant he attacked me for no reason and almost knocked me down. We tried everything to save him the trainer he went to said he had to be muzzled 24 hours a day. I have never had to take any of my goldens to a trainer they are easy dogs to train we always did it on our own. I called Al lots of times and he did say to bring the dog up here and if he eats the meat I put in front of him I will beat him with a stick we told our vet and he filed a complaint. The last time I called him he said he didn't want the dog and he said to put it down there is something wrong with him I could not take the chance of him attacking my daughter as she wasn't even 1 yet. We know of a few people that got dogs from him and the same thing the dogs aren't friendly and very nervous dogs. He also says his dogs are seeing eye dogs but I called and they have never heard of him or his dogs. We treat our dogs like kids they go everywhere with us and we take them for long walks rain or shine.


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## carlyanne

I did not start my own thread on this site, yes I did edit some of my posts.

Best of luck to all who have brought one of these amazing dogs into their family. Do your research and be a responsible dog owner. Should anyone wish to connect with me further, Google me & you'll find me.

Carly-Anne


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## Jersey's Mom

Didn't you start this thread: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/member-introductions/294978-hi-finn-carly-anne.html?

I don't know what it said before it was edited and can't imagine what would have been surprising about it -- but it is a thread started by your user name and presumably the one that was referenced by Goldens R Great.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## jonm

Hi everyone.

I came across this forum doing some research on the breeder.

I got off the phone with Al only moments ago after making an enquiry. I am not a golden retriever owner but I am looking to get a dog. 

Please know that I am completely opposed to ANY animal cruelty or breeders who might be doing it only to line their pockets with cash, but I am not opposed to getting a dog from a breeder who is not registered and jumping through all the hoops. ( my last dogs were mutts )

Now, I found his ad on Kijiji.

I am planning on phoning him later to ask some of the questions I did not get to ask such as:

1. Are all the dogs registered?
2. Will i get to see where they are kept, and will i get to see the parents
3. Will I get to hold them?
4. What is your method of training involve? ( click or alternative )

If there are any questions you guys would like me to ask, please list them here and I will do it.

Again I will state I am DEFINITELY against anyone who is making money from dogs if its a puppy mill. But as I do not know Al, haven't seen his place or his dogs. I cannot say anything good or bad about him.

I will say that our conversation today was long and enjoyable. He spoke of owning retrievers since 1962, breeding them since 65 and not changing his method since 1967. He also mentioned many other things that I cant remember lol. It was a lot.

He did say that he would provide all VET paper work.

Now, obviously if he is adverse to being registered due to costs, I can see him flying under the radar. That doesn't make a person bad. There are many hard working folks in this world who fly under the radar of the tax man. Is it RIGHT... no. but millions do it.

My only concern with any dog that I buy is the health and safety of dogs. 

But in this case its early, I do not know if that is the case. Obviously those who are registered, those who charge $1500 a dog are going to hate the guy, its quite simple. If he is selling them for $550 as he is now. That means people are likely to go to him vs paying $1500 ( at least those who dont have $1500 to spare ) 

Also bear in mind. Most dogs cost around $350 to $500 from a rescue. $1500 is alot to pay for a dog. ( before all the other stuff )

So I don't see a problem in his PRICING. 

I had planned to go down tomorrow to see a dog, I still may do that depending on the answers to his questions this evening.

I am serious about getting a dog. And I repeat, I cannot say anything good or bad against this man, as I do not know him. 

So I would ask you. Please tell me what questions you would like me to ask him and I will, and then I will update this post, and maybe it will help others.


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## Megora

For that amount of money, you can probably do a whole lot better than that place. If you do not care about specifics, you may as well purchase a puppy from a byb for a couple hundred. When you have careless or belligerent practices by a breeder - there's really no difference between them and some people who bought some dog and decided to make puppies with whatever. 

Good luck.


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## jonm

Hi, not sure I understand what part of your reply had a question that you want me to ask this man?


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## ArchersMom

Ask about health clearances. His dogs won't have any. You can verify this by getting the registered names of the sire and dam and looking them up on the OFA website. Health clearances are very different than being cleared by a veterinarian as being healthy. Do some research here on the forum about eye certification, hip and elbow clearances and heart clearances. The dogs that come from true reputable breeders cost more because the owners are paying for these clearances yearly, the pay to compete with their dogs in some venue to prove that they are true to the breed and conform to the standards. I don't know what your shelters are like but my local shelter only charges $250 for any breed of puppy and that includes spay/neuter and all vaccinations for the pups first year. This man is charging $550 for nothing. He is pocketing basically all of that and only breeds to sell puppies and make money. In no way is he following the golden retriever club of America's code of ethics by breeding only to improve the breed. I would never, ever pay even $100 for one of his puppies. I saved for a year to afford my golden because I knew how important health clearances are. Not to mention the expense and emotion stress of owning a dog with hereditary hip dysplasia.


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## DanaRuns

I don't have anything for you to ask him. You seem to know about health issues, and you don't care about registration or documentation, so it sounds like you've pretty much made up your mind, Jon. I'm not sure why you're asking us, actually.

But I do want to mention that I think you've missed the boat on one thing. It's this:



> Obviously those who are registered, those who charge $1500 a dog are going to hate the guy, its quite simple. If he is selling them for $550 as he is now. That means people are likely to go to him vs paying $1500 ( at least those who dont have $1500 to spare )


That's just not true, at all. First of all, breeders charging $1500 per puppy are not competing with this guy. Those breeders don't need to. They all have waiting lists like crazy, and no matter how big a litter they can put on the ground, all those puppies are spoken for by multiple buyers. The demand for their puppies far exceeds the supply, because those buyers know the difference between what they are getting and what you'll be getting. For good breeders it's a matter of choosing which applicant to sell a puppy to. It is NOT a matter of trying to compete on price. Those breeders already sell all their puppies, sometimes before the pups are even born. This Allen Bain guy isn't even on their radar.

If they hate him, it's because he isn't breeding according to the code of ethics for Golden Retriever breeders, not because he's undercutting other breeders on price. It's a business for Bain, but it's not a business for most good breeders. For them it's a labor of love, and an effort to make the best, healthiest Goldens they can. Even at $1500 per puppy they often _lose_ money. And they still do it, for the love of the breed, not for money.

_Caveat emptor_, Jon. You know what you're getting into. Go get your puppy from this guy and don't ask too many questions. Maybe you'll get lucky. I hope you do. But if you don't, you'll find out just how expensive that puppy really is.


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## jonm

You raise some valid points from ONE perspective, and I will ask him that question.

But let's also bear in mind a couple of things so we don't blow this out of the water.

1. Because a person chooses to buy a dog from a reputable breeder who dot's the i's and crosses the t's that doesn't mean your dog isn't going to die at age 2, 3, or 4 from some health problem. In fact there are many people who buy from reputable dealers whos dogs have died before those who haven't

2. I also think we need to make a distinction between replies which are made because there is a DEEP concern for the HEALTH and SAFETY of dogs vs ( are you paying $1500 like I did, and getting it from a reputable dealer ) 

Listen, I get it. I really do. You could compare this to people who WON'T buy a fender strat guitar unless it is AMERICAN made. They have hissy fits and cry if they think for a moment you bought it and it was MEXICAN made.

Then there are those who even get their pants in a twist if they think for a second that you bought an AMERICAN strat ( which is what fender enthusiasts do prefer ) but you get it from a regular guitar dealer. Some won't buy from anyone BUT American Fender Established Dealers.

Why do they get so upset. Pretty simple really. 

A. They paid out full price, and to think they could have got the same type of guitar for less, eats them up

B. They are snooty. They run with a crowd that doesn't let others play with them unless you have that certificate to show people that you bought American Fender, and it came from a Fender Dealer.

That's why I think it's important that we make a distinction between replies which are made because there is a DEEP concern for the HEALTH and SAFETY of dogs on this mans farn vs ( did you pay $1500 like I did, and did you get it from a reputable dealer, is it for show ?) As that type of discussion is bootstrapping and it tends to just go around in circles. Never mind it being egotistical. 

The important matters here are: Health and Safety of dogs ( whether they are golden or any breed of that matter. Including mutts which are NO less a dog than a purebred )

So to keep this thread on track. Let's stick to what questions this man should be able to answer.


----------



## Megora

jonm said:


> Hi, not sure I understand what part of your reply had a question that you want me to ask this man?


Based on everything I've read on this forum from people who have dealt with him or so on.... I would have no questions. 

If anything, ask yourself why you are so set on purchasing a puppy from him despite everything you've read. And despite there being better quality breeders in your area.

Asking about registration is not going to get you anywhere in Canada, because as far as I remember reading elsewhere, the CKC does things differently than the AKC.

If I asked a breeder for registration numbers - I could look those numbers up on AKC.org to locate the dog and verify the dog was actually registered. CKC - there's really no easy way of looking dogs up. 

Clearances is another issue - I'd love to see clearances going back several generations.... but again, CKC registered breeders did/do not always use the offa.org or other databases for clearances. So you really would have to see the clearances in person - if there are any.

These are issues I would clear up before ever going in person to see a breeder or a litter. Because once they get you inside the door, they can turn on the puppy charm + rush you to a decision to purchase a puppy. 

As it is - if these dogs are $1500 bucks? You can buy a puppy from a reputable (meaning has a very good reputation among other breeders and is well known in the golden retriever community in a good way).... for about the same price. 

So the question - I'd ask myself is why would it be worth pursuing a puppy from this guy given everything that people have said.

Does it come down to the price the guy is actually charging? Paying $500....


----------



## DanaRuns

jonm said:


> You raise some valid points from ONE perspective, and I will ask him that question.
> 
> But let's also bear in mind a couple of things so we don't blow this out of the water.
> 
> 1. Because a person chooses to buy a dog from a reputable breeder who dot's the i's and crosses the t's that doesn't mean your dog isn't going to die at age 2, 3, or 4 from some health problem. In fact there are many people who buy from reputable dealers whos dogs have died before those who haven't
> 
> 2. I also think we need to make a distinction between replies which are made because there is a DEEP concern for the HEALTH and SAFETY of dogs vs ( are you paying $1500 like I did, and getting it from a reputable dealer )
> 
> Listen, I get it. I really do. You could compare this to people who WON'T buy a fender strat guitar unless it is AMERICAN made. They have hissy fits and cry if they think for a moment you bought it and it was MEXICAN made.
> 
> Then there are those who even get their pants in a twist if they think for a second that you bought an AMERICAN strat ( which is what fender enthusiasts do prefer ) but you get it from a regular guitar dealer. Some won't buy from anyone BUT American Fender Established Dealers.
> 
> Why do they get so upset. Pretty simple really.
> 
> A. They paid out full price, and to think they could have got the same type of guitar for less, eats them up
> 
> B. They are snooty. They run with a crowd that doesn't let others play with them unless you have that certificate to show people that you bought American Fender, and it came from a Fender Dealer.
> 
> That's why I think it's important that we make a distinction between replies which are made because there is a DEEP concern for the HEALTH and SAFETY of dogs on this mans farn vs ( did you pay $1500 like I did, and did you get it from a reputable dealer, is it for show ?) As that type of discussion is bootstrapping and it tends to just go around in circles. Never mind it being egotistical.
> 
> The important matters here are: Health and Safety of dogs ( whether they are golden or any breed of that matter. Including mutts which are NO less a dog than a purebred )
> 
> So to keep this thread on track. Let's stick to what questions this man should be able to answer.


Jon, if you're interested in health and safety of the dog, then you wouldn't buy a puppy that hasn't had several generations of clearances, whatever the price.

But you seem to think that anyone who pays $1500 for a dog, or who sells dogs for that much, is "snooty" or is involved in "ego." This really is nothing whatsoever like buying a guitar. It's more like adopting a child.

If you don't care about seeing health clearances, why are you here asking? Maybe I'm not understanding you.


----------



## jonm

Megora said:


> Based on everything I've read on this forum from people who have dealt with him or so on.... I would have no questions.
> 
> If anything, ask yourself why you are so set on purchasing a puppy from him despite everything you've read. And despite there being better quality breeders in your area.
> 
> Asking about registration is not going to get you anywhere in Canada, because as far as I remember reading elsewhere, the CKC does things differently than the AKC.
> 
> If I asked a breeder for registration numbers - I could look those numbers up on AKC.org to locate the dog and verify the dog was actually registered. CKC - there's really no easy way of looking dogs up.
> 
> Clearances is another issue - I'd love to see clearances going back several generations.... but again, CKC registered breeders did/do not always use the offa.org or other databases for clearances. So you really would have to see the clearances in person - if there are any.
> 
> These are issues I would clear up before ever going in person to see a breeder or a litter. Because once they get you inside the door, they can turn on the puppy charm + rush you to a decision to purchase a puppy.
> 
> As it is - if these dogs are $1500 bucks? You can buy a puppy from a reputable (meaning has a very good reputation among other breeders and is well known in the golden retriever community in a good way).... for about the same price.
> 
> So the question - I'd ask myself is why would it be worth pursuing a puppy from this guy given everything that people have said.
> 
> Does it come down to the price the guy is actually charging? Paying $500....


You raise some great points there and questions.

First off, I'm a dog lover and owner at heart. I am not a purebred lover.

In my mind a dog is a dog. ( actually probably more human and nicer than most humans )

Prior to contacting this man on Kijiji, which is actually the last place I would usually look. Our last dog came from the Humane Society. ( however currently there is a shortage of both adult and pups at our local one at the moment ) i began looking further a field.

Two other rescue places appear only to have husky/shepherd mixes

Im not keen on getting that type of dog.

I contacted about 6 or 7 labrador and retriever breeders in the area. Some didn't have any at that time, the ones who did wanted $1500. I don't have $1500 to pay for a dog. To me ( and this is my opinion ) $1500 is an outrageous amount to ask for a dog.

Our last dog from the Humane society cost $250. She lived 8 years, a wonderful dog she was.

I have been looking for a dog that is good with families. The retriever was one, as mentioned I saw his ad, I phoned him and spoke to him.

Believe me. If his dogs are being mistreated, not only will i not buy from him but I would report his property.

At this point online there is a mixture of love and hate for this guy. Those who have bought and had no problems and those who just hate him not because they have bought and had a bad experience when visiting his site but because he doesn't follow protocol. ( This is very much like Fender Die Hard Owners who won't buy Mexican or from a reputable Fender dealer, who i will say consider their guitars like babies )

Hope that explains it.


----------



## cgriffin

Yeah, I don't get you at all Jonm. There is absolutely nobody on the forum that would NOT put health before sticker price and bragging rights. And it really is not about sticker price and bragging rights. It is about getting the healthiest pups and hoping to have them around for a long long time. 
You have not been here long enough and obviously have not read enough to make those derogatory allegations. And obviously you made up your mind because you had a 'nice' conversation with a breeder that is more than questionable. 

Go ahead, show us all, buy a puppy from this guy if it makes you happy. I wish you good luck and hope your puppy will be and stay healthy and live a long life.


BTW, a lot of us also have other breeds that were rescued, stray etc, so we are not golden snobs - we just care!


----------



## Brave

jonm said:


> ....snip.....
> 
> Why do they get so upset. Pretty simple really.
> 
> A. They paid out full price, and to think they could have got the same type of guitar for less, eats them up
> 
> B. They are snooty. They run with a crowd that doesn't let others play with them unless you have that certificate to show people that you bought American Fender, and it came from a Fender Dealer.
> 
> That's why I think it's important that we make a distinction between replies which are made because there is a DEEP concern for the HEALTH and SAFETY of dogs on this mans farn vs ( did you pay $1500 like I did, and did you get it from a reputable dealer, is it for show ?) As that type of discussion is bootstrapping and it tends to just go around in circles. Never mind it being egotistical.
> 
> The important matters here are: Health and Safety of dogs ( whether they are golden or any breed of that matter. Including mutts which are NO less a dog than a purebred )



Eh..... My $350 rescue mutt runs with those "snooty" $1500 purebreds ALL the time and no one has been snooty, snobby, rude, or unwelcoming to us. Least of all simply because my mutt doesn't have registration or isn't a show quality dog. 

If you're on a budget, why not reach out to the golden retriever rescues in your area? You can get a purebred or a mix for less than this "breeder" charges. 

Every dog runs the risk of having health problems, yes. But reputable breeders do the ethically required testing to avoid as much health problems as possible. 

My $350 mutt ended up costing me near $10,000 the first year cause he was structurally unsound and he torn BOTH his ACLs before he was a year old. Could that have happened on a $1500 puppy? Yes, but the chances are reduced since reputable and ethical breeders only breed to improve upon their stock (which means physical soundness is important). Furthermore, an ethical breeder would have most likely refunded me my purchase price when Bear tore his ACLs and it was found to be a genetic/physical problem.

Perhaps you should see what health guarantees or warranties he offers on his puppies, should they become sick. And see what restrictions it involves. Be wary if his warranty is null and void unless the puppy is diagnosed by his vet only.


----------



## DanaRuns

jonm said:


> First off, I'm a dog lover and owner at heart. I am not a purebred lover.
> 
> In my mind a dog is a dog.
> 
> To me ( and this is my opinion ) $1500 is an outrageous amount to ask for a dog.
> 
> Our last dog from the Humane society cost $250. She lived 8 years, a wonderful dog she was.


Why don't you just buy a mutt off of Craigslist and be done with it?


----------



## ArchersMom

What about the person whom bought a dog from this "breeder" and then had it attack an elderly person and put them in the hospital as mentioned on the previous page? Shouldn't that make you think twice? That behavior is certainly not within the golden retriever standard.


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## DanaRuns

Brave said:


> My $350 mutt ended up costing me near $10,000 the first year cause he was structurally unsound and he torn BOTH his ACLs before he was a year old.


I've been meaning to ask you, how is Bear doing? Well, I hope! We must get together for a play date!


----------



## Brave

DanaRuns said:


> I've been meaning to ask you, how is Bear doing? Well, I hope! We must get together for a play date!



He is 100% better, and learned how to "dock dive" last month. We're still working on his courage. lol!!!

A play date is a must!!! I shockingly haven't met Ziva yet. *pout*


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## jonm

Listen, I'm not saying that I will be buying from this man at all.

I'm just say that there is a difference between those who buy dogs because they want to SHOW them vs those who dont

If SHOWING a dog is your purpose, without a doubt, you are going to want to get a purebred, follow all the rules and blah blah.

If OWNING a dog is your purpose only, you aren't going to necessarily want a purebred or have them part of some elite society who turns their nose up at those who are not part of it.

Health, Safety, Care will be of concern, which brings me back full circle to saying that I will NEVER just buy a dog based on what some forum tells me to do or not to do, as forums are the least reliable places for determining truth.

I will base it on my own investigations. 

And it probably will be the case that i will go with a MUTT, that is from a rescue.


----------



## DanaRuns

jonm said:


> I'm just say that there is a difference between those who buy dogs because they want to SHOW them vs those who dont
> 
> If SHOWING a dog is your purpose, without a doubt, you are going to want to get a purebred, follow all the rules and blah blah.
> 
> If OWNING a dog is your purpose only, you aren't going to necessarily want a purebred or have them part of some elite society who turns their nose up at those who are not part of it.


Just out of curiosity, which category do you put the members of this forum in?

In fact, which category do you put me in? I have two show Golden Retrievers. I have two rescued Golden Retrievers. I also have a mutt I got from the pound. So, am I one who turns their nose up, or am I one of the good dog owners? Just curious how you make the distinction. You do seem to have an awful lot of things figure out.


----------



## DanaRuns

Brave said:


> He is 100% better, and learned how to "dock dive" last month. We're still working on his courage. lol!!!


Fantastic!



> A play date is a must!!! I shockingly haven't met Ziva yet. *pout*


We will have to remedy that.


----------



## Jennifer1

I bought my girl from a reputable breeder.
I'm not showing her so I don't really care about all of those Ch in her pedigree. But those Ch are a sign of a breeder that does things for the betterment of the breed.
I got her from a reputable breeder because I wanted my dog to have the deck stacked in her favor. 

You are 100% right, there are no guarantees. But by getting a dog from a reputable breeder who has all of the health clearances (eyes, heart, hips, elbows) on their dogs before doing any breeding you are getting a dog that is statistically less likely to have problems that our breed is prone to. That's not being snobby, it's wanting the best for your dog.

A well bred dog is more expensive, but it is often cheaper in the long run not having to deal with things like hip displasia. Again, no guarantee, but it the parents have good hips (as declared by an outside authority) the pups are statistically less likely to have hip problems.

$1200 was ALOT of money for me. I saved up for her over several months. A dog is a (hopefully) 12 year investment, why not delay the puppy satisfaction for a few months and get a puppy with the deck stacked in its favor.


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## Sally's Mom

Jonm, disagree with you. I have adopted mixed breed dogs and rescued a beagle when I was in vet school. Getting a purebred dog is not all about showing. For me, getting a purebred golden was about obtaining a dog whose temperament had some predictability, etc.. You can get that inexpensive golden... But you will likely get health issues with it...


----------



## jonm

Sally's Mom said:


> Jonm, disagree with you. I have adopted mixed breed dogs and rescued a beagle when I was in vet school. Getting a purebred dog is not all about showing. For me, getting a purebred golden was about obtaining a dog whose temperament had some predictability, etc.. You can get that inexpensive golden... But you will likely get health issues with it...


Sally's Mom I understand and I hear you. I agree that if a person wants predictability get a purebred. If they are fine with a bit of unpredictability get a mutt ( i love mutts )

And yes there is the possibility that an inexpensive golden will have health issues but there is the same possibility with an expensive one.

Why?

Because the moment that dog comes home they enter an environment that can effect it, and a world where they could be exposed to bad foods and a lack of treatment by an owner. All these play a role in why one dog lives longer than another ( not a certificate when they are first born, though that gives a buyer SOME peace of mind ).

A bit like buying a house. You can show me all the paperwork, but there is a lot of things that can be covered up or not mentioned or can occur years later because a lack of upkeep. Many factors play a role. Price is the least determining factor.


----------



## Jennifer1

Yes, but I would relate it more to buying the house without an inspection.


----------



## DanaRuns

Jennifer1 said:


> A well bred dog is more expensive, but it is often cheaper in the long run not having to deal with things like hip displasia.


Oh boy, you're not kidding. My rescue girl, Isabelle, whom I love dearly ended up with both hip and elbow dysplasia. It's going to cost us money for the rest of her life. We are trying to avoid expensive surgery and treat conservatively (which costs about $130 per month in meds, plus the cost of all the tests and periodic bloodwork, plus the meds can affect liver and kidneys, so there's more possible problems in the future), but we may do all this and still need multiple surgeries on top of it.

I'm starting to think that in well bred Goldens, dysplasia is no longer the big problem it used to be. It's still there sometimes, but it appears to be way down. IMHO that's all the more reason to keep encouraging ethical, responsible breeding, so that we can make these conditions as rare as they were 100 years ago.


----------



## Brave

jonm said:


> Sally's Mom I understand and I hear you. I agree that if a person wants predictability get a purebred. If they are fine with a bit of unpredictability get a mutt ( i love mutts )
> 
> And yes there is the possibility that an inexpensive golden will have health issues but there is the same possibility with an expensive one.


Possibility? Yes. Probability? No. 



> Why?
> 
> Because the moment that dog comes home they enter an environment that can effect it, and a world where they could be exposed to bad foods and a lack of treatment by an owner. All these play a role in why one dog lives longer than another ( not a certificate when they are first born, though that gives a buyer SOME peace of mind ).
> 
> A bit like buying a house. You can show me all the paperwork, but there is a lot of things that can be covered up or not mentioned or can occur years later because a lack of upkeep. Many factors play a role. Price is the least determining factor.



You made an excellent point. The environment plays SUCH a large part in our dogs lives as they age, and often times there are environmental factors we cannot control.... So that begs the question, why not pick the best genetic factors you CAN control by finding a well bred dog?

Let's take the word expensive out of the equation. 

Which would you prefer a well-bred Golden whose parents, grand parents, great grand parents, etc have been cleared of hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, eye problems (I.e cataracts, Pigmentary Uveitis), heart problems (like murmurs, or SAS - sub-aortic stenosis) or a dog that you have no idea if their lines have these problems?

Edited for typos.


----------



## Prism Goldens

Quote-
My only concern with any dog that I buy is the health and safety of dogs. 

But in this case its early, I do not know if that is the case. Obviously those who are registered, those who charge $1500 a dog are going to hate the guy, its quite simple. If he is selling them for $550 as he is now. That means people are likely to go to him vs paying $1500 ( at least those who dont have $1500 to spare ) 

Also bear in mind. Most dogs cost around $350 to $500 from a rescue. $1500 is alot to pay for a dog. ( before all the other stuff )

So I don't see a problem in his PRICING. 

.[/QUOTE]

I would like to suggest that someone -anyone- who has puppies every month of the year simply cannot be doing it well. If the dogs do not have clearances, that is, OFA or Pennhip hips, elbows, a cardiac exam by a cardiologist, and an annual eye exam at a minimum- that person absolutely positively should not breed that animal. When health is your focus, you hedge your bet considerably by buying a puppy whose parents, their parents and theirs at least have these core clearances. There are more- dna, etc- but the core 4 are the bare minimum anyone who wants a Golden should shop for. 
Pricing is another issue. My puppies are expensive in comparison to this fellow's, that is certain. I do not 'hate' this man, not in the least. I do hate that he's apparently cranking out puppies with little consideration for the breed itself. I don't have a new litter every month and I do every possible thing I can to insure their longevity. I'm not even remotely threatened by his low pricing, he and his kind of breeder are not my competition - I can't imagine any good breeder would feel threatened by a lowballer who doesn't even sell the same product really- his puppies and mine are worlds apart! So don't imagine that the issue w/him has anything to do w/what he sells his puppies for. The issue w/him is for me that he seemingly has little concern for the breed itself... anyone can put two dogs together and have a litter, but not everyone can do it well and in the best interest of the breed. 
Questions to ask- do you have final hip and elbow clearances on your breeding dogs? do you have cardiac clearances done by a cardiologist on them?The # will have a -C- near the end, it will say C-VPI at the end. P-VPI or C-PI or C-NOPI are not adequate. Do you get eye exams yearly?Are they marked normal/normal or are there conditions noted on either eye? What are the conditions? You will be able to look those conditions up and see if they are breeders options or are considered non-breedable conditions. Do you deworm your puppies as often as AVMA recommends, at 2,4,6 and 8 weeks? What do you feed the dam, the puppies? How do you socialize the puppies? Are they health checked by a vet before they leave you, and do you get a sheet for each one listing at a minimum- are both testicles down (males), are any murmurs present, was a fecal done? Are puppies bright and interested, or are they lackluster? What do you do if a puppy isn't a good fit for the buyer's family? Or what if it exhibits health issues, temperament issues? 

It's way more than about the money- its about whether he can reasonably speculate as to his line's likely health and longevity and if he has no method of keeping up with the puppies he produces, he likely cannot. 

I'm sure he can talk with the best of them- and he's probably quite capable of raising puppies of a breed that doesn't require as much attention as a Golden litter does. I think that if you were to get answers to the clearances questions and they are the right answers, you may indeed be happy with his puppies. As you pointed out, a rescue costs nearly what he charges, so his puppies are for sure the Dollar Store version of a Golden- and like anything else, you may choose to shop the Big Lots, the Target, or the Macy's, or the Neimans- it's up to you where you spend your money and how much you want to invest in your partner for the next however many years your dog lives. When the 'cost' of goods to Neimans is more than the cost of goods to Big Lots, no one denies the quality is different- the markup is the same. And Neimans isn't threatened by Big Lots... they appeal to a different market. 
No good breeder is lining their pockets w/puppy money- I'm sure if you inquire, you'll find that most pour that puppy money back into their keepers- and spend plenty of it on raising the litter well sparing no expense. I'd say run from the ones who appear to need puppy money to live on. But don't judge the expensive puppy vs this fellow's, imagining they 'cost' the same to produce or upkeep- they do not. 
Good luck! I hope you find the answers you need to feel good about whichever puppy you end up with!


----------



## Selli-Belle

jonm said:


> Sally's Mom I understand and I hear you. I agree that if a person wants predictability get a purebred. If they are fine with a bit of unpredictability get a mutt ( i love mutts )
> 
> And yes there is the possibility that an inexpensive golden will have health issues but there is the same possibility with an expensive one.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because the moment that dog comes home they enter an environment that can effect it, and a world where they could be exposed to bad foods and a lack of treatment by an owner. All these play a role in why one dog lives longer than another ( not a certificate when they are first born, though that gives a buyer SOME peace of mind ).
> 
> A bit like buying a house. You can show me all the paperwork, but there is a lot of things that can be covered up or not mentioned or can occur years later because a lack of upkeep. Many factors play a role. Price is the least determining factor.


Yes John, environmental issues play a role in a dog's health, BUT...genetics also play a big role. I have a friend who got a Golden (English Creme to boot) from someone who did not follow all the rules. We knew from the age of 8 months that Boomer was going to have structural issues based on the way he looked and the way he moved. The vet even told his owner that Boomer was going to have issues. At 30 months he blew out one ACL and the surgery cost $3000 and he will likely blow out the other ACL.

When I think of the young Goldens I know (and as the owner of a private dog park I know quite a few), those from reputable breeders are better structurally. And that is another point, while the longevity of a dog is a VERY important thing, the health of the dog while it is alive is EQUALLY important and that is where health clearances are important. My beloved Dexy (from a BYB) had elbow dysplasia and allergies and so does my little Duffy. My Selli (from a reputable breeder) has a much easier time in life, she does not experience pain when she runs and she spend days drugged to keep her from itching. That ease is worth a lot of money and effort to me.


----------



## Megora

> I'm just say that there is a difference between those who buy dogs because they want to SHOW them vs those who dont
> 
> If SHOWING a dog is your purpose, without a doubt, you are going to want to get a purebred, follow all the rules and blah blah.
> 
> If OWNING a dog is your purpose only, you aren't going to necessarily want a purebred or have them part of some elite society who turns their nose up at those who are not part of it.


 I don't imagine you are interested in what people are saying while pontificating at them about guitars from Mexico and whatnot...

But I did want to point out something very important and while it might not impress anyone determined not to be impressed, it is important to throw out there in case anyone is being judgmental of others....

I come from a big family of 8 (had been 9, but one of my sisters died in childhood). 3 of my other sibs spent a good portion of their childhood in and out of hospitals because of out of control epilepsy issues (both my brothers would have constant seizures on "bad days" and it put them in danger of brain damage if not at the hospital - this was before they doctors began prescribing certain meds (Ativan) to break the cycle of seizures). And of course my oldest brother had something like Leukemia - which was treated aggressively with medications since a bone marrow transplant would have been way too much of a risk because of how bad his numbers were... and he lived at University of Michigan for almost year during this time. <- So think MAJOR LEAGUE hospital bills for my parents. 

There's things like me watching tv shows or movies from the time I was a kid and not having anything in common with my generation (80's and early 90's) because of things like... we didn't have a TV until I was 10 or 11.... and even then, we didn't have cable for a very long time so there was nothing to watch on TV. 

We never went out to eat.

When we traveled - we always found a way to stay with relatives to avoid paying for hotels.

Our cars were always 20+ years old and falling apart. It wasn't until I was in my teens that my parents bought their first "new" car... and even then it was still about 5 years old. 

My siblings and I.... we never had new clothes. Or at least I never had a new dress purchased from a store until I was 19 - and it was one of those things where I promised (and DID) pay my mom back for buying 2-3 dresses for me, as they were work clothes. Until that point, all my clothes were passed down to me from my older sisters.... who wore whatever they could find in charity bags or consignment stores. 

So you understand the reasons why my dad smelled blood in the water when he saw how old the puppies were and conditions they were kept... when he talked the puppy price for our first golden down to $200 instead of $400. 

$400-700 was about the norm price for a nicely bred golden retriever. The backyard breeders selling Charmy... they were very ambitious, if anything.  

Because Charmy had various hereditary issues (cataracts, etc) and not a family dog temperament (he was snarly) - my oldest two sisters got together and saved up every dime they made at their first jobs until they had about $1000 between the two of them. And my oldest sister went into high gear contacting the local clubs in search of a good breeder to purchase from. Because both girls were teenagers.... they were yelled at, scolded, and discouraged by various people in the breed referrals and given the cold shoulder by many breeders who would NOT talk to teenage buyers with little kid siblings.... until she and my sister found a breeder way out of the way who was rock solid as far as breeding good quality lines and producing carefully planned litters.... this was our Sammy who was about $500-600 at the time. Again sounds cheap, but 20 years ago - that was about what you would normally spend on a golden retriever puppy. 

Fast forward a couple years and both sister did the same thing again with our Danny - who was closer to $800. 

Now many years later when it was time to buy the next puppy.... I had a good job and actually earned way more than both my sisters combined back when they bough Sammy and Danny.... but I still had a very stressful time working that $900 out of my tight budget with only 1-2 months of planning. 

I made it work and never looked back, but when Jacks was about 1.5 and we lost my Danny.... I decided not to rush back out there and buy the first puppy I could. I started putting money away and looking and talking. And I spoiled Jacks rotten in the meantime. Took me about 2 years before I got REALLY SERIOUS about getting the next puppy, and by then I had a $2000-2500 padding saved up. Bertie was no where near that expensive! But basically that money in the bank went towards training and health care for that puppy the first 1.5 years or so after buying him. 

So all that long novel I just typed up will probably be disregarded and mocked by people who don't get this, but what I'm saying is I feel insulted every time I listen to somebody's sob story and turn around assertion that people like me are elitist snobs. Every dog we've owned was well planned and we spared no expense on them. Even that first golden - he may have only been $200 in the beginning, but even his last 6 months - my parents cut expenses from elsewhere to make sure they spent the $500-700 on diagnostics to figure why he was throwing up nonstop and they spent the next $500-900 on food and vet care to keep him comfortable during those 6 months. And yes, in the end, they spent $200+ putting him to sleep when the time came. 

I imagine that most people out there who are deeply involved with the breed or getting involved like I am... we didn't just roll out of bed some morning to become who we are today. People come from somewhere and a lot of what people believe in and emotionally and passionately support - it comes from many years, and not always easy ones, falling in love with the breed.


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## jonm

You guys might find this interesting.

Currently there is a petition going through change.org to get them to remove pet selling on Kijiji. Even in light of the fact that I have looked on Kijiji I am for this. I hope you don't mind me sharing this link to the petition.

http://www.change.org/p/kijiji-canada-stop-puppy-mills-and-prohibit-the-sale-of-household-pets


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## Dancer

Hi Jonm,

Clearances are EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. IF you are buying a purebred and you are concerned about health and longevity, then that means you are concerned about clearances. Period. If it's just something you're saying but don't really mean, then you are not I concerned about clearances and will knowingly buy from someone without them. If you are concerned about price and prefer crossbreed dogs anyways, then I'm not sure why you would be interested in a BYB breeder without clearances? Just go to a rescue, and if the local one doesn't have what you're looking for, search in the next town over. Honestly, to me this sounds like the better option for you. 

I have made mistakes and bought from a high volume breeder who doesn't have complete clearances. She was really nice, I believed her, she'd been breeding for a long time, and had even had some well known dogs once upon a time... Doesn't change the fact that not one of the THREE Goldens I bought from her has a complete set of clearances (3 or 4 generations). I don't think I could make up a complete set between all 3 of them! My bad. I trusted a person who sounded good, and didn't do research to validate her claims. I didn't realize it- until my dog died out if the blue at age 5, after a lifetime of nagging little health issues. The next pup I buy will have full clearances that I will validate personally. I will save up and spend the money to stack the deck in my favour. I would STRONGLY suggest that if you're not willing to do the same (save up the $$ and spend a lot of time researching) you should drop the purebred dog idea and rescue some lovely mixed breed! It seems that you'd prefer to do that anyway so I'm having trouble understanding what the problem is? 


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## jonm

Dancer said:


> Hi Jonm,
> 
> Clearances are EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. IF you are buying a purebred and you are concerned about health and longevity, then that means you are concerned about clearances. Period. If it's just something you're saying but don't really mean, then you are not I concerned about clearances and will knowingly buy from someone without them. If you are concerned about price and prefer crossbreed dogs anyways, then I'm not sure why you would be interested in a BYB breeder without clearances? Just go to a rescue, and if the local one doesn't have what you're looking for, search in the next town over. Honestly, to me this sounds like the better option for you.
> 
> I have made mistakes and bought from a high volume breeder who doesn't have complete clearances. She was really nice, I believed her, she'd been breeding for a long time, and had even had some well known dogs once upon a time... Doesn't change the fact that not one of the THREE Goldens I bought from her has a complete set of clearances (3 or 4 generations). I don't think I could make up a complete set between all 3 of them! My bad. I trusted a person who sounded good, and didn't do research to validate her claims. I didn't realize it- until my dog died out if the blue at age 5, after a lifetime of nagging little health issues. The next pup I buy will have full clearances that I will validate personally. I will save up and spend the money to stack the deck in my favour. I would STRONGLY suggest that if you're not willing to do the same (save up the $$ and spend a lot of time researching) you should drop the purebred dog idea and rescue some lovely mixed breed! It seems that you'd prefer to do that anyway so I'm having trouble understanding what the problem is?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



No problem. This has been a great thread and a diverse set of views being shared. I have learned a lot from you folks. 

I made a decision not to buy from Al Bain ( golden retriever breeder in Campbellford ) as his conversation with me raised several red flags as a dog owner. One being that he felt it was ok to leave a NEW dog for 12 hours. I would never do that. The longest I have ever left my adult dog because we had to visit my wifes parents was 4 to 5 hours, even then I don't like it, and that was a dog that was an adult and house trained. In my mind a puppy should never be left in the early stages, and even later arrangements should be made with a kennel or friend to keep an eye on them if you are going anywhere longer than 10 hours. I know there are people who work 12 hours but that doesn't justify leaving a dog. In fact if someone is away 12 hours a day, i would ask whether they should even have a dog.

A few other things he said made me a little skeptical. He does does lay on the salesman ship hard, says he is booked up 4 to 6 months in advance even though he has listed twice in a period of one month on Kijiji different litters but more than anything at no point did he ask me about what our home life was like?

Most decent dog breeders and shelters require a lengthly application with references and even a home visit. He didn't require any of that. That set off warning bells for me.

So... it appears from what I can see that currently today there are 3 options available for purchasing a dog

A. Purebred Breeders ( To some extent this does give an owner peace of mind both over temperament, registery and health) even though there does exist scrupulous breeders who are flying under the radar and not doing everything that is required. But most decent ones, at least the ones i have seen have a website, lots of references, lots of information on the parents and grandparents. They also don't breed as often. I have seen recently some great breeders with prices that are in the 900 mark and have been around for a long time. That is reasonable for me. Google breed in your area.

B. Shelters/Fosterhomes/humansociety - Great way to save a dogs life, a little less choice and likely that you may end up with a mixed breed. Not bad at all i like this and our last one came from the Humane Society, she was a pup in a foster home. 3 months. I am a big advocate for saving a dog. Check humane society, check petfinder.com, or 4leggedlove.com or homeagainbancroft.ca or hartdogrescue.ca

C. Kijiji ( first off let me state that I am for them closing the sale of dogs on Kijiji, i signed that petition and I believe others should consider it. I posted the link above. )

There appears to be three types advertising through Kijiji. 

C a. Legit breeders who are linking to their website, legit shelters who are linking to their website ( this seems to be a key factor if they don't link... question it. If they link research their site and google them like I did Al Bain )

C b. families who have adult dogs that no longer can keep because of divorce, baby, too energetic, moving. Those usually are only selling one dog and most of the time its around 1 year or above. These are unfortunate but at least they arent a litter.

C c. Vague/questionable puppy sellers ( these I believe are puppy mills 90% of the time ) even their photos make them look shady.

Some might say well there are families that have had a litter and are selling on there and they are not puppy mills. Sure, but chances are that is not the case as most people get their dogs spayed and neutered now days, and dogs arent generally roaming around and getting pregnant by accident. 

These vague puppy sellers, usually have photos of wire enclosures, I saw one with a ladies FOOT on the dogs belly. Maybe she wasn't hurting it but it didnt look good. Other photos are ones with them outside in a muddy area. I dont ever keep dogs outside. 

Anyway.

I am leaning towards either a Purebred Breeder or Adoption right now. There are pros and cons to both.

Anyway, I hope this also helps others who stumble on this in search of information on Allen Bain ( or Al bain ) or Kijiji Golden Retriever Seller Al. It might just help them to think twice. 

Thanks to you all.


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## Dancer

Sounds good! If you go the breeder route, double check all of the clearances via the offa website (search by dog name). If you can't find the clearances there, discuss it with the breeder and see what they say about it. If you have any questions, folks here are always ready to help. Learn from my experience and please verify literally everything yourself! A reputable breeder won't find that insulting! Good luck- keep us posted on the puppy situation!


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## Jennifer1

Good luck with whatever choice you make!
If you go the purchasing route, I can't emphasize enough how important it is to make sure the clearances are in place if the health/soundness if the dog is important to you. Also, there is a huge difference between clearances and a vet check up stating the pups and adults are healthy. You want hips and elbows X-rays and submitted to OFFA or pennhip for grading. You want the heart checked by a cardiologist (not normal vet) and eyes CERF tested by an opthamologist. A good breeder will have these and willingly show you the proof if you ask.


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## Dancer

Jonm- I just saw you're in Ontario! So that makes you lucky enough to be close to this really awesome golden rescue: http://www.goldenrescue.ca/

Check it out- I would most certainly look to them for a new family member if we were in that area! 


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## DanaRuns

...and now this thread will sink again, only to crawl from its grave again like a zombie thread, eating all our brains...


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## Dancer

DanaRuns said:


> ...and now this thread will sink again, only to crawl from its grave again like a zombie thread, eating all our brains...



Lmao you're so right


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## GoldenMum

DanaRuns said:


> ...and now this thread will sink again, only to crawl from its grave again like a zombie thread, eating all our brains...


I was thinking the same thing, the thread that won't go away!!!


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## Grace Li

Eowyn said:


> carlyannedotcom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi DanaRuns.
> 
> My dog is not registered, nor is Allen Bain a registered breeder, as has been established, so I can't post any of that information.
> 
> 
> 
> Then how do you know your dog isn't inbred??? If you have never seen the pedigree there is no way to know that. I am asking out of curiosity, not accusation.
> 
> ETA: I don't think a dog has to be registered to be entered into k9data if that helps any.
Click to expand...

Why Is Inbreeding Used In Dog Breeding?
In some situations, inbreeding is required, for example, to create a new breed or to re-create a nearly extinct breed. Indeed, in both cases, the very few specimens available at the start will need to mate together several times to grow the number of specimens within the breed. Because dog breeding is mainly assortative breeding, without the sorting of individuals by trait, a breed could not be established, nor could poor genetic material be removed.
The more sound the bloodline the more successful inbreeding will be, this is why the parents and their ancestors must be as void of structural faults and health problems as possible to avoid (randomly) fixing the wrong genes and fixing and preserving hereditary diseases. Before starting an inbreeding plan, you will need to study as many generations as possible before mating the dogs to make sure the bloodline is genetically sound. It will take time to research so many generations but you will have to go through this process to avoid accidents.


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## Grace Li

Inbreeding vs Linebreeding vs Backbreeding
Both linebreeding and backbreeding are some forms of inbreeding. Although there is no clear rule to separate Linebreeding from Inbreeding, here is the common agreement:
Inbreeding is the mating of close relatives (between brother x sister, parent x puppy, half-brother x half-sister)
Linebreeding is the mating of relatively close relatives (between cousins, uncle x niece)
Backbreeding is the matin of one parent with its descendants over several generations (father with a bitch, then the same father with its one daughter, granddaughter, etc.)
Linebreeding Inbreeding Dogs
THE LINEBRED PUPPIES’ PARENTS ARE IN FACT AUNTIE (D1) AND NEPHEW (S2).

For more information, feel free to read our article on linebreeding and the one on backbreeding.
Inbreeding Coefficient
The coefficient of inbreeding is an equation which expresses the expected percentage of homozygosity arising from a given Sire and Dam, meaning, the probability of how genetically similar they are. To perform this equation, the breeder needs a fully documented pedigree over as many generations as possible.
The UK Kennel Club offers a page where you can provide the Sire’s and Dam’s name to find out what is the degree of inbreeding. You can also find a few calculators online where you can quickly find out the result of a breeding, PedScope is a software for Windows and OS X users offering a free trial.

Those tools offer accurate pedigree analysis through various and complex mathematical functions (Wright’s equation, for example), assisting you with various measures of genetic diversity, statistics for groups of individuals, relationship matrices, reports and many other metrics. They are not required in order to inbreed as nothing replaces your very own knowledge of the bloodlines involved and the study of the pedigrees mating.
Grading up is a dog breeding strategy used by many new breeders to progressively increase homogeneously the overall quality of their bloodline. It boils down to investing in a very high-quality stud dog that will then be line-bred to his best offspring. Here as well, there is a risk of high inbreeding coefficient and therefore requires a lot of caution from the owner.
Why Is Inbreeding Controversial?
The BBC produced two documentaries on dog inbreeding titled Pedigree Dogs Exposed and Pedigree Dogs Exposed – Three Years On that document the negative health consequences of excessive inbreeding. They give the example of a Cavalier King Charles part of a breed where the direction is to reinforce the small size of the dog but as a result of such an intensive assortative breeding, the skull’s size of some dogs became too small for their brain, resulting in severe neurological conditions.
This type of breeding is not recommended to novice breeders and newcomers in a breed. Before starting such an enterprise, you will need to seek bits of advice from your Kennel Club, other breeders and breed’s specialists such as competition judges. You will end up having the worse bloodline if you start with a poor broodstock and inbreed them. Most issues will appear years after the birth of the puppies and your reputation will be broken, so are the lives of the puppies you produced.
The UK Kennel Club's decision on Inbreeding
Because inbreeding does not only improve the puppies’ features positively but also negatively, The Kennel Club decided a few years ago to stop registering litters from a close mating, between mother and son, father and daughter or brother and sister. They, however, said that in exceptional circumstances, they would allow it if welfare reasons were clearly and scientifically identified.


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## Grace Li

Inbreeding is the mating of closely related dogs, sometimes over many generations. For example father to daughter, brother to sister, half-brother to half-sister, mother to son, etc.
Inbreeding is a process that intensifies the animal’s traits and characteristics, both good and bad, at each and every generation. The ultimate goal of inbreeding is to fix and preserve the traits that the breeder is looking for by increasing homozygosity in the dog’s genetic pool.


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## Grace Li

Are you discussing the dog's appearance or their character, ^ _ ^ or health, registered dogs and non-registered dogs, purebred dogs and crosses, family dogs and stray dogs, what is the difference?


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## Grace Li

So a good breeder is registered step by step, and a good dog has no dog relationship, but health is more secure, looks better, more suitable for performance. That doesn't mean that the breeder is good. Maybe just want to be famous and want to make money? I am still very confused. I don't have a lot of money, so I have been looking for a good family. The puppy that I gave birth is sold because I can't afford to register a dog. Although they are all of the same life, they are labeled with noble bloodlines when they are born, and we can't afford them.


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## Grace Li

Ok, is it suitable? Only people who have bought it know that I want to know more information about people who have bought his dog. Please contact me because I don't have money, but I also want to have a Golden Retriever dog. Adult dogs are difficult to domesticate, close to us and take time, but I have children who can't take risks and need more easily trained puppies. Raising from a puppy [email protected]


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## Grace Li

My previous dog was not registered as an American cocker spaniel, in China, but she lived 16 years old.


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## Abhiraj Dhillon

Hi.. 
I am resurrecting this thread as some of us have done in the past when we have come across his kijiji ad with a price next to unbelievable and secondly getting impressed by what he told you over the phone call. I am still trying to do my research before I pay him the deposit. Are there more people who actually ended up buying a pup from him? The pups are priced at 775 on kijiji, a bit higher than his 2019 rate but still a lot less than what other breeders are selling at. Please let me know if you ended up buying from Allen? [email protected]


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## Prism Goldens

If you will post the sire and dam info, someone can check it out. Old info is probably useless except for the ethics involved.


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## Emmdenn

No reputable/ethical breeder sells puppies on websites like kijiji.


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## Abhiraj Dhillon

Prism Goldens said:


> If you will post the sire and dam info, someone can check it out. Old info is probably useless except for the ethics involved.


Sugar and Ricecakes (I think that’s what I heard)


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## Prism Goldens

I meant registered names...
there about a million 'sugar's' and I don't see a Ricecake on k9data.. or a dog on OFA with RiceCake in his name.

There WERE many serious ethical issues in the earlier posts. If you are seeing your puppy purchase as a casual thing, then probably all the ethical things won't matter- but if you are looking for a family member for many years, it would pay to do good homework.


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## Millie'sMom

Prism Goldens said:


> I meant registered names...
> there about a million 'sugar's' and I don't see a Ricecake on k9data.. or a dog on OFA with RiceCake in his name.
> 
> There WERE many serious ethical issues in the earlier posts. If you are seeing your puppy purchase as a casual thing, then probably all the ethical things won't matter- but if you are looking for a family member for many years, it would pay to do good homework.


You will not get registered names, he doesn't believe in registering puppies because he has an issue
with the CanKC. He also claims he produces "seeing eye dogs" for St Johns Ambulance. St Johns Ambulance
provides therapy dog teams 9owner and dog0 in Ontario, not "seeing eye dogs".


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## Prism Goldens

So due to that- there is no way to know what bloodline you are buying. 
It takes A LOT to get kicked out of CKC or AKC.


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## Tracy Mumfors

Aurorelle said:


> A couple months ago I was calling up golden breeders that I found online/through friends. I ended up going with a gentleman named Al Bain in Campbellford, ON. He seemed to know his stuff, provided an 8 year guarantee for hips, heart, eyes and elbows, and claimed to have some 40some years of experience in GR breeding. He also claimed to train guide dogs for St. John's Ambulance and boasts that his dogs are from the states and have no hereditary problems.
> 
> I visited them last week and both parents were well tempered and friendly, and he handled the puppies with care and overall it seemed like a good match. Of course, this was before I discovered this wealth of information online and I went ahead and placed a deposit with him. I looked him up online and found a few posts from members of this forum claiming they had good experiences with him as well.
> 
> Now that I'm reading all the checklists and such on this forum, I'm feeling a bit nervous because I noticed some red flags. He has no website and isn't registered with the CKC. He also only charges $430 a pup, and at the time of my visit, he hadn't offered any references or proof to any of his claims, but maybe that was because I didn't ask.
> 
> Another thing is that he said the puppies should be available for pickup in the first week of February, but when I asked if I could pick up on Friday, he told me to call Thursday to ask again because he said that his vet goes to him, and he won't know until the vet gives the OK. I found this kinda sketchy because I feel like breeders should know when their vet is going to drop by and when their puppies can be rehomed.
> 
> Anyhow, this is the most recent information I can find on him:
> Als Goldens | Facebook
> It hasn't been updated in a while.
> 
> Anyway, I was just hoping someone maybe had some experience with Al and could give me some peace of mind, or any thoughts. It's already too late to back out because I've already placed a deposit, but maybe if someone could help me think of what to ask him when I visit him again or over the phone?
> 
> Thanks and sorry for the wall of text


We sent a $100 deposit for a puppy that was going to be born within 1-2 weeks. It has been a month and I called to inquire and they don’t even know if the dog is pregnant now 🤷‍♀️ 
No contact but happy to take the money and make us wait for who knows how long. Maybe this is normal for dog breeders, but not how I would run a business


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## Emmdenn

Tracy Mumfors said:


> We sent a $100 deposit for a puppy that was going to be born within 1-2 weeks. It has been a month and I called to inquire and they don’t even know if the dog is pregnant now 🤷‍♀️
> No contact but happy to take the money and make us wait for who knows how long. Maybe this is normal for dog breeders, but not how I would run a business


 Not normal. Most breeders will wait until a pregnancy is confirmed or puppies are on the ground to take deposits..


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## Lorry7

I'm in the same boat as you. Paid Al Bain the deposit way back in March and have heard nothing since.


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## Sansa_86

Lorry7 said:


> I'm in the same boat as you. Paid Al Bain the deposit way back in March and have heard nothing since.


Hello everyone ! I had make a deposit in may for a pick up between october and january. I have a good friend of mine that adopt his dog there. It's the most lovely, intelligent, beautiful I have ever seen. This guy is not tight with follow up and details but it worth it. It was the same kind of situation that my friend didnt have many news and then he called to say the puppy is ready. I have my trust in this place knowing my friend experience in his dog.


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## Prism Goldens

That bar is pretty low...


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## Lorry7

Sansa_86 said:


> Hello everyone ! I had make a deposit in may for a pick up between october and january. I have a good friend of mine that adopt his dog there. It's the most lovely, intelligent, beautiful I have ever seen. This guy is not tight with follow up and details but it worth it. It was the same kind of situation that my friend didnt have many news and then he called to say the puppy is ready. I have my trust in this place knowing my friend experience in his dog.


We picked our puppy up from him 2 weeks ago. She is one of the most intelligent dogs I have ever had with such a great temperament. Would highly recommend. We had no correspondence then had a phone call at 7 weeks to say come and pick her up.


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## BlazenGR

Lorry7 said:


> We picked our puppy up from him 2 weeks ago. She is one of the most intelligent dogs I have ever had with such a great temperament. Would highly recommend. We had no correspondence then had a phone call at 7 weeks to say come and pick her up.


I hope you didn't pay very much, and bought insurance. Anyone who can't or doesn't register with AKC or CKC and doesn't believe in health exams shouldn't be breeding dogs and you have no idea of what you got in terms of genetics.


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## SalMac

Lorry7 said:


> We picked our puppy up from him 2 weeks ago. She is one of the most intelligent dogs I have ever had with such a great temperament. Would highly recommend. We had no correspondence then had a phone call at 7 weeks to say come and pick her up.


Hi Lorry, How is your puppy doing? We also paid a deposit in early April and have not heard from Al. If there was a pregnancy the puppies would have been born last week. Wondering if you know if there were more puppies expected at the farm this summer when you picked yours up? We are ready to move onto another puppy if this falls through.


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## Sansa_86

Lorry7 said:


> We picked our puppy up from him 2 weeks ago. She is one of the most intelligent dogs I have ever had with such a great temperament. Would highly recommend. We had no correspondence then had a phone call at 7 weeks to say come and pick her up.


Amazing !!! Thank you


----------



## Lizanne

Abhiraj Dhillon said:


> Hi..
> I am resurrecting this thread as some of us have done in the past when we have come across his kijiji ad with a price next to unbelievable and secondly getting impressed by what he told you over the phone call. I am still trying to do my research before I pay him the deposit. Are there more people who actually ended up buying a pup from him? The pups are priced at 775 on kijiji, a bit higher than his 2019 rate but still a lot less than what other breeders are selling at. Please let me know if you ended up buying from Allen? [email protected]


Hi Abhiraj,
Have you been able to get an answer from him??
Im waiting for a pup we gave him a deposit more than 2 months ago and hes not answering the phone...
My email is [email protected] if you want to reply to me!


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## Lizanne

Tracy Mumfors said:


> We sent a $100 deposit for a puppy that was going to be born within 1-2 weeks. It has been a month and I called to inquire and they don’t even know if the dog is pregnant now 🤷‍♀️
> No contact but happy to take the money and make us wait for who knows how long. Maybe this is normal for dog breeders, but not how I would run a business


Funny ! Im also waiting for the same female that "they didnt knew if she is pregnant". Now no one is answering the phone....


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## Lizanne

Lorry7 said:


> We picked our puppy up from him 2 weeks ago. She is one of the most intelligent dogs I have ever had with such a great temperament. Would highly recommend. We had no correspondence then had a phone call at 7 weeks to say come and pick her up.


Im glad theres hope!!!
I cant reach them anymore...
We have noooo idea when we will get our pup, if he still breeds...🤷🏼‍♀️


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## mylissyk

Those of you who paid a deposit and have had no communication since, I would ask, don't you want a breeder that communicates with you? There are so many better than this.


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## Sweet Girl

mylissyk said:


> Those of you who paid a deposit and have had no communication since, I would ask, don't you want a breeder that communicates with you? There are so many better than this.


THIS. 100%. Why would you want a puppy from a litter you have never seen, never had photos, videos, updates on their health and development over their first eight weeks, the health of the mum.


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## mylissyk

Lizanne said:


> Im glad theres hope!!!
> I cant reach them anymore...
> We have noooo idea when we will get our pup, if he still breeds...🤷🏼‍♀️



I really would encourage you to find a different breeder that will communicate with you, send you pictures of your puppy and the parents, send you occasional updates on the puppies development, and tell you when to expect to get your puppy. This would make me crazy if I paid a deposit and heard zero after from the breeder. I would assume it was just lost money and there would never be a puppy from this person.


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## Bobchu

Lizanne said:


> Im glad theres hope!!!
> I cant reach them anymore...
> We have noooo idea when we will get our pup, if he still breeds...🤷🏼‍♀️


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## Bobchu

We gave Al a deposit in April and we are still waiting for news on our puppy we requested a Male . Seemingly two litters have been born, we were told there were three people ahead of us for Male puppies but we didn't get a puppy out of either litters so happy you got yours,do you mind saying how long you waited Thanks.


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## mylissyk

Bobchu said:


> We gave Al a deposit in April and we are still waiting for news on our puppy we requested a Male . Seemingly two litters have been born, we were told there were three people ahead of us for Male puppies but we didn't get a puppy out of either litters so happy you got yours,do you mind saying how long you waited Thanks.


I really would encourage you to find a different breeder that will communicate with you, send you pictures of your puppy and the parents, send you occasional updates on the puppies development, and tell you when to expect to get your puppy. This would make me crazy if I paid a deposit and heard zero after from the breeder. I would assume it was just lost money and there would never be a puppy from this person.


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## Lorry7

mylissyk said:


> I really would encourage you to find a different breeder that will communicate with you, send you pictures of your puppy and the parents, send you occasional updates on the puppies development, and tell you when to expect to get your puppy. This would make me crazy if I paid a deposit and heard zero after from the breeder. I would assume it was just lost money and there would never be a puppy from this person.


Don't give up on Al Bain, his puppies are amazing. I had my doubts but in the end he came good. I have an 8 year old goldie ckc registered and a 16 week old goldie from Al, she is out of this world amazing and so intelligent, beautiful and all around amazing


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## Prism Goldens

It never fails to bring wonder and amazement into my mind how people can trust others, especially when they have shown themselves to be unreliable.


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## GoldenboyBarley

Abhiraj Dhillon said:


> Hi..
> I am resurrecting this thread as some of us have done in the past when we have come across his kijiji ad with a price next to unbelievable and secondly getting impressed by what he told you over the phone call. I am still trying to do my research before I pay him the deposit. Are there more people who actually ended up buying a pup from him? The pups are priced at 775 on kijiji, a bit higher than his 2019 rate but still a lot less than what other breeders are selling at. Please let me know if you ended up buying from Allen? [email protected]


I have a male golden that we got from Al in April 2019. He is a beautiful healthy boy.


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## SalMac

Hi Bobchu, There were 2 litters due this month. Have you spoken to Al recently? I had a good conversation with them in June and patiently await our puppy.


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## Ioana

Lucas07 said:


> I hope you didn't go with al bain he inbreeds his dogs he also says that his dogs are for seeing eye he's a lair I called and they never heard of him. He also doesn't show you where they are kept. We had to put ours down at the age of 2 for attacking and al did nothing to help just saying its our fault I have had goldens all my life never had one that bites its own owners. I'm trying to get the word out to get this guy out of business.





Lucas07 said:


> Al bain is not a good breeder we got a puppy from him and the dog we got was aggressive from the day we got him home. He doesn't let you see where they are kept or the parents. My dog had to be put down at the age of 3 for attacking us I have never had a golden that did this to us we called al bain he said it was our fault which was not the case. We think Al is inbreeding his dogs or puppy mill he sells way to many puppies in a year and his females are old. Please people we have to get this guy out of business.


My first ever dog was a golden from Al and he was amazing. He was calm, gentle and extremely healthy until old age hit. We just got another pup and everything seems to be going well. He does raise a couple of flags but their business as a whole is more old school then others. Personally i’m very grateful for them and the amazing dogs they provide.


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## Maggie'sVoice

Still amazes me how many 1 and 2 post people come on here to defend really crappy, horrible breeders... still bet money they are the breeder or family/friends of said horrible breeders. Such an old hat the brim is starting to fray


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## Ioana

carlyanne said:


> *Allen Bain Golden Retrievers - info from an OWNER*
> 
> You can check out my blog for all info on my Finn who came from Allen Bain. You'll also be able to see some of the people who have also purchased pups from him.
> 
> Go to carlyanne.com and search Finn and Al Bain or Allen Bain.
> 
> *From what I've read on this site, I can't see comments from anyone who has actually purchased a dog from Al Bain.* (Other than the despicable Lucas07 who put their *PUPPY* down because it was aggressive and this is somehow the breeders fault that they didn't properly train their dog.)
> 
> Perhaps because I grew up on a farm I am more familiar with this type of Farm Breeder and I would NEVER spend thousands of dollars on a show dog.
> 
> My dog Finn was born on Jan 06, 2013. I contacted Al in Feb and went to view the puppies. He showed us the parents and a cousin before we got to meet the puppies. He brought us 3 (2 male & 1 female) from the litter that were not spoken for. We were NOT allowed to touch the puppies due to Al's concerns that we could contaminate them (as they were super young and of course, did not have all their shots). This was a very smart thing as most people had been viewing puppies all over the place.
> 
> We put down our deposit and were told that he would be ready to pick up in about a month - but could not give us a final date as it depends on the vet checks. Now this is another thing that I have seen people take as a negative. BUT coming from a farm, who the vet would come to visit to do check ups. You NEVER know the exact date. It depends on the vet's schedule. They give you a date and window of time and then let you know the morning of when they will arrive. You never know what emergencies will come up - so have to be flexible.
> 
> We called him back on the date he gave us to call and he let us know that we could come down that weekend.
> 
> We went to pick up our baby and before we could get our puppy we had to review the vet records, care and training instructions and sign the paperwork.
> 
> We then watched her give him a bath and dried him off. Finally once he was dry we got to hold him and take him home.
> 
> Al gave very clear instructions about how to feed and potty train the dogs. He breeds for health and intelligence and our Finn is smart as a whip.
> 
> As all of us Golden owners know, they are working dogs who need a job. They are VERY active and need to run a couple of hours a day (as well as swim!) to burn off the energy. I bet everyone on this forum can attest to that. I bet they can also attest to the days that they don't give their Golden the amount of exercise they need that they will chew shoes, walls, whatever because of boredom.
> 
> All puppies are aggressive to a certain extent. Same as babies. They try to get away with what they can and they will push you. I doubt many people here had a child that had tantrums or bit them as babies that gave them away or wanted to put them down.
> 
> Finn was a very bitey puppy. He wanted to wrestle and play and used his mouth. Puppy teeth are sharp and he bit hard as a little guy. But he grew out of it and we spent the time and money to go to puppy class to learn how to properly train and deal with a high-energy dog.
> 
> I encourage anyone to do their research on breeders. I recommend Allen Bain's dogs very highly and unless you need to spend a ridiculous amount of money on a registered Golden Retriever, I haven't had one better.
> 
> Please feel free to contact me directly for any questions at [email protected].
> 
> I'd also love to hear from other's who have actually purchased a dog from Allen Bain.


I’ve also purchased now 2 dogs from Allen. Our first dog Pluto was very healthy and athletic yet still gentle and extremely smart. We just got our pup Lup in April and everything seems to be going good. He loves using his mouth to play but you also have to keep in mind that they’re teething. Allen is more old school but from personal experience I think he’s a good option.


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## Prism Goldens

Old school is one thing- not necessarily a safe program regardless of what school.


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## CharlieDon'tSurf19

We purchased a dog from Al as did my parents around the same time. My parents gave back their dog after it bit my daughter in the face. Our dog passed away recently at 6 years old. It had kidney failure. I can't say my experience was positive, but I also can't blame Al. When we got the puppies my parents were told that playing tug with the puppy with those ropes could make them aggressive. They did ignore that. 

We had an amazing six years with our dog. The kindest, happiest dog you could hope for. She got sick really fast and we don't know why. Maybe it was hereditary, or maybe she just got into something. Who knows, but it was worth every moment with her.

Al is not registered, and the puppies are not pure bred. They are honest with that. But they also stress how they are not inbred as other breeders tend to do. I don't know enough about it either way. We just wanted a family dog. Anyway, just wanted to share.


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## Sylver

Elysia said:


> Okay, I have a golden from Allen Bain. I will say this now and let me emphasize, *I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS BREEDER*. Let me fill in the blanks from my experience.
> 
> First of all, I never knew of an online community of GR lovers where I could read about a good breeder. At the time, all that was going through our minds was "aww puppy!". That being said, we were quick to notice this breeder because of his low price and distance from our place. We called and had some very long conversations with him. He's a know-it-all sort of guy, alluding to articles in Times Magazine to explain why he didn't register his pups (I still don't get what he means). He radiated confidence, like an excellent salesman. We were sold.
> 
> Now before anything else, we went to our vet (from previous owned dogs) and got her checked out right away. She was (and is still) in perfect health, no parasites or anything like that. She has a lovely temperament, but of course any golden owner would say that. She's so smart and loving. She's 10 months old now.
> 
> Now the concerns. It rang a few bells at the time when I went to pick her up after visiting her once before. He did not let us see where the dogs were kept. It was during the winter, and from what I saw of his property, I didn't see an adequate kennel space/building separate from the home. We did not get introduced to the parents, and when I asked, he said she was with the pups in the kennel, and didn't offer me the father either.
> 
> When he brought the pup in, she looked puzzled and cold, and before I got to touch her Mr. Bain had his assistant bathe her. When talking about discipline and care, he said that the "first command" was something along the lines of "EH!" with a quick snap of the fingers to the nose. I never had the heart to hit Zoey, as I was told by him, but he was very insistent that it was the only way to train the dog well. He told us to feed Puppy Chow from Purina, and said later to feed a No Name dog food brand! In my mind, I was thinking I would never feed her that level of crap; even my ill informed self back then knew better. So all I thought of that was "OK, I won't listen to his advice." The cuteness radiating off my puppy clearly blinded all my logic.
> 
> Anyway Zoey is well, is on the smaller end of the spectrum but he did mention that he doesn't breed large goldens. She is very intelligent and active and drives us nuts like puppies should. Attached are pictures.
> 
> I say this with full disclosure and I'm happy to answer any questions. Please remember before you bash me for purchasing the pup from a terrible breeder that I truly had the best intentions and was unfortunately irresponsibly informed.


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## Sylver

Could you give me his address? We got a pup from him 12 years ago. She was such a good dog with a beautiful red coat. So friendly & smart. Unfortunately she she passed away from heart failure. We miss her so much. We need to get another one like her. I have Allen’s Phone number but nobody is answering. We know he lives near Campbellford. If someone knows how to contact him or his address please let me know. [email protected]


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## Bobchu

Bobchu said:


> We gave Al a deposit in April and we are still waiting for news on our puppy we requested a Male . Seemingly two litters have been born, we were told there were three people ahead of us for Male puppies but we didn't get a puppy out of either litters so happy you got yours,do you mind saying how long you waited Thanks.


Hi We also gave Al a deposit in April and we wanted a male. It is now October and we have heard absolutely nothing from him in all this time! I wish you all the best in getting your dog.


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## Maggie'sVoice

Sylver said:


> Could you give me his address? We got a pup from him 12 years ago. She was such a good dog with a beautiful red coat. So friendly & smart. Unfortunately she she passed away from heart failure. We miss her so much. We need to get another one like her. I have Allen’s Phone number but nobody is answering. We know he lives near Campbellford. If someone knows how to contact him or his address please let me know. [email protected]


This thread is proof you don't want a dog from this guy. You're dog died early from heart failure and you want another dog from him!?!? Why would you want to get another dog that would may die early again?!? READ THE THREAD and understand what is going on.


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## Millie'sMom

CharlieDon'tSurf19 said:


> Al is not registered, and the puppies are not pure bred. They are honest with that. But they also stress how they are not inbred as other breeders tend to do. I don't know enough about it either way. We just wanted a family dog. Anyway, just wanted to share.


He tells you the puppies are not purebred because in Canada under the Animal Pedigree Act, it is illegal to 
sell a puppy as purebred, without CanKC registration. He claims he doesn't register his dogs/litters with them because 
he has "issues" with them.


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## Sweet Girl

Sylver said:


> Could you give me his address? We got a pup from him 12 years ago. She was such a good dog with a beautiful red coat. So friendly & smart. Unfortunately she she passed away from heart failure. We miss her so much. We need to get another one like her. I have Allen’s Phone number but nobody is answering. We know he lives near Campbellford. If someone knows how to contact him or his address please let me know. [email protected]


Why in the world would you want another dog from him? Did you not see the very post your quoted? There are so many good breeders in Ontario (and across Canada).


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## JocelynC

PLEASE DONT EVER BUY A PUPPY FROM AL. He needs to be SHUT DOWN.

Als house is absolutely disgusting. Puppies are kept in children’s pools full of literal poop in the house. Adults are kept in Kennels by the barn, also engulfed in endless amounts of poop. The police and so many animal agencies have been called on this ‘puppy mill,’ which always seem to enforce change but never seem to be able to shut him down. Puppies are brought in by the truck load, they must have another property where they’re breeding them too. Kennel of dogs down by the barn of crying dogs weeping for attention.

PLEASE adopt, or at least don’t support Al and his puppy mill.
Attached photo is from hired help before they hightailed it out of there.


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## Bobchu

OMG thank you for posting those pictures. We put a deposit on a puppy with him in April and have not heard a word from him todate. He came highly recommended by a number of people and that is why we went with him and he is local. We will definitely not get a puppy from him and don't care if we loose our deposit. There has to be something that can be done to stop him. These pictures should be proof enough for the authorities to shut him down!


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## Emmdenn

JocelynC said:


> PLEASE DONT EVER BUY A PUPPY FROM AL. He needs to be SHUT DOWN.
> 
> Als house is absolutely disgusting. Puppies are kept in children’s pools full of literal sh*t in the house. Adults are kept in Kennels by the barn, also engulfed in endless amounts of ****. The police and so many animal agencies have been called on this ‘puppy mill,’ which always seem to enforce change but never seem to be able to shut him down. Puppies are brought in by the truck load, they must have another property where they’re breeding them too. Kennel of dogs down by the barn of crying dogs weeping for attention.
> 
> PLEASE adopt, or at least don’t support Al and his puppy mill.
> Attached photo is from hired help before they hightailed it out of there.
> View attachment 877763


That is horrifying.


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## Charliethatgoldengirl

Lizanne said:


> Im glad theres hope!!!
> I cant reach them anymore...
> We have noooo idea when we will get our pup, if he still breeds...🤷🏼‍♀️


Have you heard from Al Bain yet about your pup? I’ve tried to reach him as well and sounds like his number is disconnected.


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## Thomixz

I


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## LA152

I’ve heard a lot of people using the phrase “registered breeder”. Is that a thing in Canada? In the US, the dog themselves are registered with the AKC or they aren’t (they might also be registered with the UKC or the continental kennel club - which is used by a lot of puppy mills) and I know you can pay to register a kennel name as yours so others can’t use it. Is registered breeder just a term people use to mean someone who is breeding registered dogs?


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## Sylver

Thomixz said:


> I





LA152 said:


> I’ve heard a lot of people using the phrase “registered breeder”. Is that a thing in Canada? In the US, the dog themselves are registered with the AKC or they aren’t (they might also be registered with the UKC or the continental kennel club - which is used by a lot of puppy mills) and I know you can pay to register a kennel name as yours so others can’t use it. Is registered breeder just a term people use to mean someone who is breeding registered dogs?


If they are registered they will be a pure bred dog & parents would be purebred as well & so on.


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## LA152

Sylver said:


> If they are registered they will be a pure bred dog & parents would be purebred as well & so on.


No, I’m asking about the breeders, not the dogs. A lot of people use the term “registered breeder” and I’m wondering if they just mean a breeder whose dogs are registered or if there’s such a thing as the breeder themselves being registered with the kennel club in some way.


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## Sylver

Charliethatgoldengirl said:


> Have you heard from Al Bain yet about your pup? I’ve tried to reach him as well and sounds like his number is disconnected.


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## Sweet Girl

LA152 said:


> No, I’m asking about the breeders, not the dogs. A lot of people use the term “registered breeder” and I’m wondering if they just mean a breeder whose dogs are registered or if there’s such a thing as the breeder themselves being registered with the kennel club in some way.


No. In Canada the dogs are registered with the Canadian Kennel Club. To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a registered breeder. I think some people just use the phrase wrongly.


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## LA152

Sweet Girl said:


> No. In Canada the dogs are registered with the Canadian Kennel Club. To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a registered breeder. I think some people just use the phrase wrongly.


Thank you! I figured that was the case but then I was like hmm there’s something else I don’t know about.


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## Sylver

I don’t think any pups from Allan Bain are registered. To my knowledge he gets his breeding dogs from the States. Texas. We got a pup from him. The father was registered AKC but mother was not registered. Our dog was the best dog we have owned. Very obedient & didn’t need a leash. She passed away last April 2020 at 13 years old of heart failure. We now have a cream coloured male Golden Retriever. A friend of ours bought him but he didn’t work out for them. He is a beautiful smart dog but a little aggressive. I think he will calm down a bit once he gets neutered. Good luck with everyone trying to get one. We we’re lucky to get Chance.


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## LA152

Sylver said:


> I don’t think any pups from Allan Bain are registered. To my knowledge he gets his breeding dogs from the States. Texas. We got a pup from him. The father was registered AKC but mother was not registered. Our dog was the best dog we have owned. Very obedient & didn’t need a leash. She passed away last April 2020 at 13 years old of heart failure. We now have a cream coloured male Golden Retriever. A friend of ours bought him but he didn’t work out for them. He is a beautiful smart dog but a little aggressive. I think he will calm down a bit once he gets neutered. Good luck with everyone trying to get one. We we’re lucky to get Chance.


I wasn’t asking about Alan Bain in particular, I have no interested in a breeder like that. Regarding behavior issues with your dog, don’t expect neutering to fix that. If he is in fact aggressive, training is required. If it’s more just a young dog’s exuberance, growing up and maturing (and also training) is the best thing for him.


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## kerry.milford

Megora said:


> Okay...
> 
> Are the parents registered and have their clearances? Or do you know anything about the parents? Where they came from? What exactly does this guarantee mean? You get $450 back if your dog needs a $2000+ surgery...?
> 
> The facebook page is unhelpful because it's just pics of puppies.


Al had great pups. I had one female for twelve wonderful years.


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## Megora

kerry.milford said:


> Al had great pups. I had one female for twelve wonderful years.


So wonderful that you just have a picture of a random farm animal instead of your dog.


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## kerry.milford

LA152 said:


> I wasn’t asking about Alan Bain in particular, I have no interested in a breeder like that. Regarding behavior issues with your dog, don’t expect neutering to fix that. If he is in fact aggressive, training is required. If it’s more just a young dog’s exuberance, growing up and maturing (and also training) is the best thing for him.


He was a good breeder, don't condescend you arrogant ****.


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## kerry.milford

Megora said:


> So wonderful that you just have a picture of a random farm animal instead of your dog.


What the **** are you on about?


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## ArkansasGold

This thread is being permanently closed due to completely unacceptable behavior.


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