# OMG my bad my bad, everything is broke



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I need help and a little sympathy too. Kind of long.
Background....My Tito boy has always been a trainer's dream. At 18 months he has his CD (in 3 shows) U-CD (in 4 shows) U-CDX (in 4 shows) and one leg toward his CDX (his first show) (plus some rally and misc. stuff). He learns everything in just one or two attempts. I've never trained a dog like him, including my other 2 goldens.
I have him entered in shows Nov. 8, 15, and 16 for his CDX.
Yesterday in training, I threw the dumbbell over the high jump, he happily went and got it, and then came up to the jump, rested his chin on it (dumbbell in mouth) and stood there looking at me. Weird. Never did that before.
I threw it again, he happily jumped over, picked it up, and came around the jump to bring it back. Weird. Never did that before, either. 
So the trainer tells me to put him back on a flexi-leash, sit him on the other side of the jump, call him to come, and "pop" him to get him moving. I do this several times and he seems to be okay with it.
So today, I set the jump up, throw the dumbbell over, he jumps over and picks it up, and starts to go around the jump to come back to me.
Here comes the bad part.
I go FLYING over to him, yelling at him, Uh-Uh (that sharp sound we make when we're displeased) and grab his scruff, give him a slight shake. I do mean slight, he's a very soft sensitive dog. I tell him he's a bad boy, because in my mind he KNOWS better. He KNOWS he's supposed to come back over that jump.
Well, he somehow associated that with the DUMBBELL not the jump. The last thing he had done was pick up the dumbbell, so in his doggie brain he thought he was getting corrected for picking up the dumbbell.
OMG, now what. 3 shows coming up and he won't go NEAR the dumbbell. I throw it (on flat) and he heads in the other direction (away from me). If he does head in the right direction, the poor dog starts trying everything he knows (doing a go-out, standing for the signal exercise, etc) except for picking up the dumbbell. It's like he's trying to figure out what in the world will please me. I know it's totally my fault, and I feel horrible about it. I'm trying to fix it, being happy happy silly with the dumbbell and working just having him pick it up off the floor a foot away from me and giving him BIG hugs and rewards for doing it (he's sooo sensitive). I really don't know what else to do. :doh:
Any suggestions?? Ideas???? It's okay to tell me it was a really stupid thing to do, I know it was, it's not the first time I've done something stupid in training and I know it won't be the last but this is horrible with the shows so close.....


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I think you need Stephanie and Hank for this! I do think they will know what to do. We're only on our last CD leg, so the sympathy is there but no expertise.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Stepanie??? Hank????? Help!!!!!!
I know I need to keep this in perspective, but it's so hard for me to get weekends off work to go to shows, I finally arrange for a Saturday off PLUS a whole weekend off, and now I do this.....I can't take him in a ring like this....


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

My short answer is that I'd plan on NOT showing him. In fact, I'd maybe even pull my entries so as not to have any pressure on me - which will force me to put pressure on my dog - to try and "fix" the problem in a very short period of time.

There will be plenty of other dog shows. Missing these won't be the end of the world. What's more important is that you repair the glitch you're experiencing and rebuild the relationship with the dog.

Plus, the first thing that would come to mind is a possible physical problem. For a dog to suddenly refuse a jump like that... perhaps there's something out of alignment and it's only in the way that he carries himself while holding the dumbbell that it makes it painful.

Rule out any physical issues.

Go back to kindergarten on the dumbbell... assuming you didn't force fetch... go back to the beginning and make it fun. Take, short hold, give, party! Repeat often and work up as his attitude allows. Follow dumbbell sessions with his most fave. thing in the world (a little classical conditioning in action). Consider switching dumbbells for a brand new association. If the current is plastic, try wooden.

But honestly, consider pulling the entries. Even if you do manage to get him over it in time, you'll be so stressed in the process, that will stress him out and affect the performance.

Learn from the mistake. Don't beat yourself up too badly. Move forward and be willing to meet your dog at his current level. Doesn't matter that he was a dumbbell pro before. The only thing that matters is where he's at now and what you'll do to help build him back up.

-S


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Wow- amazing answer/post. I am so grateful to learn these lessons vicariously, and will value the concept behind not pressuring yourself so as not to pressure the dog as I keep working on obedience with Tally.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Ruling out physical issues is great advice. When Shadow was a pup (and this is basic) he knew how to roll over and always did so on command. There came a time when he just wouldn't roll over anymore. Shortly thereafter we found out he had HD when he threw the hip out. It was then it all made sense.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks for the reply. I can't pull the entry, but I guess I can be absent from the shows. I may very well have to do that if this isn't just a real temporary glitch. You're right, I feel very stressed about it because it was so stupid on my part.
I thought about the something physical, too, and although I didn't have a vet check him I did go out in the yard and play ball with him and he seems fine. I also played with a toy, throwing it over the jump, and he seemed fine with that too and jumped over and back with it without a problem. I had been jumping him quite a bit the day before, also he had played hard with some other dogs, and I did wonder if he was tired and/or sore, but when he did it again today I thought it might just be some teenage bratty behavior type of stuff (refusing the jump I mean).
I will take your advice and go back to the very beginning with the dumbbell. No, I didn't force him. Everyone here that I train with advocates that, but I've never done it with a dog and didn't feel comfortable doing it. Everything with him has been happy, positive, games, etc. 
I will try to throw it about 3 feet tomorrow and see how he feels about it. Today he will take it in his mouth now, and then is very pleased with himself. 
I REALLY like your advice about "the only thing that matters is where he's at now". I will try to remember that, instead of thinking about where he was yesterday.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> My short answer is that I'd plan on NOT showing him. In fact, I'd maybe even pull my entries so as not to have any pressure on me - which will force me to put pressure on my dog - to try and "fix" the problem in a very short period of time.
> 
> There will be plenty of other dog shows. Missing these won't be the end of the world. What's more important is that you repair the glitch you're experiencing and rebuild the relationship with the dog.
> 
> ...


:appl::appl::appl::appl::appl:
I agree with pulling the entry and taking time to defrag... I'd have a physical done, as well, including having his eyes and ears checked )even a slight ear infection could be cause for him to not want to jump - it can easily affect his balance. 
Good luck, and as Steph said, put it behind you and move forward. Usually, Golden are more forgiving than we are of ourselves.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I thought that since he was more than willing to fly over the jump in both directions when it was a toy instead of a dumbbell he was probably physically ok....but since he's a golden, HD is always in the back of my mind.
I think I will see how he is tomorrow. If he is still like he is today, we are NOT going to the shows. We will just go back to the beginning and see what we can do to fix this.
Tomorrow we have a halloween party at training, so he will have fun and no training is going to happen. That's probably the best thing for now.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I mentioned HD only because we had an experience with it. I hope I haven't caused you any additional worries.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Sounds like you definitley have a soft dog. I live with two myself and they are both easy and difficult to train. My girls (well Layla anyway) picks up command so quickly it scares me, but I have to be careful which battles to fight or I can ruin her.

I believe in a short, meaningful correction followed by tons of PRAISE. The praise should always be greater than the correction and immediatley follow it. My corrections are mostly not verbal becasue just a switch in tone can turn my goldens off. I have done an ear pinch for dumbbell refusal... only twice. It was fast and Layla has never refused since. :crossfing You also must understand that the praise was so quick afterwards that Layla couldn't dwell on the bad part because she was so focused on me.

You must realize that most dogs will not remain in the perfect state that they learned a command in. There must be proofing involved to get the results you want. Our goldens are little tricksters, every once in a while they will test us! :bowl:

Emily


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

yikes, in fact you did.....it made me wonder if something's wrong with him, but only because I think that way to begin with. But tell me honestly, if he's willing to FLY over the jump with a toy or a ball, heading out and coming back, wouldn't you think he's probably ok?
I'm pretty neurotic, btw.


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## Augie's Mom (Sep 28, 2007)

A question. Seeing that its too late to get the entry fee back and time off is already arranged, would it be a bad thing to go and use it for ring experience as long as he is physically ok?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I've been afraid to do an ear pinch on him, I could see him leaving the ring every time I reached my hand down near his head. I know a lot of people believe in it, and swear by it, but it just feels so wrong for him. My female, yes, I would have done it with her (except we stopped after her CD) but it just doesn't feel right with him.
Maybe I'm just getting too soft in my old age, and maybe I should try it???


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Augie's mom, I have mixed feelings about that too.
I also have him entered in Rally advanced at the same shows, and I hate to just skip that because of this problem.
He's been heeling beautiful and his drop on recall will take your breath away. His broad jump is pretty nice, although his front isn't the best.
So it's the 2 dumbbell exercises that worry me now. I could go, hope for the best, and take my NQ if he screws up and just be done with it. He'd get some more ring experience (he has very, very little, we don't even do fun matches except at our home club) and it might be good for him.
The flip side, though, is that if he messes up you can't correct him in the ring and then he *learns* that it's okay to do whatever he wants to.
I'd like others to weigh in on this...


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> Maybe I'm just getting too soft in my old age, and maybe I should try it???


Why would you resort to trying it to fix a problem that YOU created? If the dog had a great dumbbell before, w/o the aversive, why add it now?

See, that's what I mean about the pressure creeping in. You've said you've never been comfortable with it, but now you're potentially considering it... is it just b/c you're hoping for the quick fix so that you can show?


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Well I have little to add to what others have said. 
First don't consider showing in those shows.
Have him checked to ease your mind that all is ok. I tend to agree that if he is willing to do it with a toy that he it is not a phyical probel, but you never know.
Assuming it is no physical under stand many dogs go through a stage in training where they know an exercise very well after being taught. It is in their short term memory. Then as their brains process the info from the short term to the long term it just is not there during the transfer. They look at you like "What?". And then all of the sudden, BAM, oh that is what I am suppose to do. It sounds like this could be the issue here. And understand when he does it with a toy it is different than his dumbell in his mind. There is no pressure/stress and I guarantee that when he did it the first time your heart rate increased and he picked up on it.
What I will suggest is what I tell myself ALL the time when we hit something like this, and PLEASE do not take offense. I tell myself KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid), in other words take a step or two backwards in my training and retrain it. It is very common place for a Golden who makes a mistake and knows it or is corrected for it to go into major avoidance and that is what you are seeing in my opinion. My Keeper was very difficult when she was younger because in her eyes if I repeated something it meant her mind she did it wrong and would shut down. Found a great trainer who was able to see what was happening and things got MUCH easier.


Good Luck and don't beat yourself up we have ALL been there at some point.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Go back to the beginning of dumbbell - put it on the floor - every time he looks at it click and treat when he gets the idea and starts to pick it up you party all the way to the fridge (or something else wonderful) he gets paid A LOT for any interaction with the dumbbell.

Separately see if you can work the ROH through with something else - tennis ball? Frisbee? Tuggie?

Be prepared for him to take some time to get over his fear - and be ready to scratch next weekend if he's not 100% - don't allow him to do the behavior incorrectly someplace you can't fix it - notice I said "fix" not "correct"?

Good luck...


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Why would you resort to trying it to fix a problem that YOU created? If the dog had a great dumbbell before, w/o the aversive, why add it now?
> 
> See, that's what I mean about the pressure creeping in. You've said you've never been comfortable with it, but now you're potentially considering it... is it just b/c you're hoping for the quick fix so that you can show?


Oh I definetly agree with this.
If you are not 100% committed, comfortable and onfident in doing this *DON'T.* Your dog will feel the uncertainty and you will make things much worse. There are NO quick fixes in training and believe me I know from my own stupid attempts.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Augie's Mom said:


> A question. Seeing that its too late to get the entry fee back and time off is already arranged, would it be a bad thing to go and use it for ring experience as long as he is physically ok?


No, I wouldn't, because you don't want to "train" in the ring, and if there are problems that come up, it could make doing ANYthing in the ring difficult. He obviously (at least I am guessing), is quite well versed with the ring.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> But tell me honestly, if he's willing to FLY over the jump with a toy or a ball, heading out and coming back, wouldn't you think he's probably ok?
> I'm pretty neurotic, btw.


Not for certain. Quiz would more than likely run agility on three legs if I'd let him. When a dog is driven with a deep passion for something, they'll work through all sorts of pain. A dog driven for a toy is in a different physical and mental state of drive than a dog working thru an obedience exercise.

Could be something out of alignment in his back and not his hips at all. I'd take him to a good K9 Chiro for an adjustment. Any moving, living being is going to have subluxations. The animal adapts for as long as it can. I take Quiz for adjustments monthly b/c of how much I tax him physically with everything that we do. He's never "perfectly" aligned... but the routine adjustments keep the imperfections from becoming problems.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

flying quizzini, you are 100% right. I guess I just felt that I'm the ONLY person I know that doesn't like the dumbbell pinch, so it made me wonder if I'm wrong. But you're right, he was perfect before without me ever doing it, why in the world would I do it to him now??? It's not his fault I sent him the wrong message. Thanks for reminding me to stick to my guns about not pinching him.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

:doh: I can't believe I didn't suggest a VOM, also. (I am a HUGE believer, and in fact had Maybe done on Monday night after her "s" bite (Cindi cold lasered her head, face and ears - which still had edema even after boatloads of Benedryl). Steph is right - he could be a perfectly sound dog as regards his hips and elbows, but be maladjusted. A VOM treatment can help nearly immediately.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I will try to throw it about 3 feet tomorrow and see how he feels about it. Today he will take it in his mouth now, and then is very pleased with himself.


I wouldn't start throwing it at all at this point - that's upping the ante too soon. Julie Daniels (from the agility world) says that if a dog fails at something we have this tendancy to slowly back down the challenge until they are successful - but that is the wrong way to approach a training issue because it conditions the dog to fail so that the task becomes incrementally easier....example: dog has started to miss (a couple of reps) an out cue to a jump at 15' lateral distance. We move to 14' and try again - MISS! Then 13' - Miss! What have you just taught? The other part here is that if they fail at 15, then 14, then 13, then 12 they've now gone a long time without reinforcement - the handler is frustrated, the dog is frustrated - you're now in counter-productive mode.

The better way to approach this problem is to get back to the beginning - maybe 2' away - get a success (or two, or ten) and then work outward again. In other words make it as easy for the dog to be successful as possible without the ability for him to fail. He's getting reinforced for successful behavior and he'll probably be working at the level he was working before within a couple of reps.

Same thing with the dumbbell - instead of failing at 3' (and maybe expecting a wait, a send, a retrieve, a front, a finish, etc) break it down to just acknowledging that the dumbbell is on the coffee table or on the floor. Acknowledge that you are holding the dumbbell, pick up the dumbbell....

Erica


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

whew, you guys are awesome. The advice is all excellent and I'm reading it quickly so I can try to reply, but I will go back and re-read and re-read each post carefully. I had forgotten all about the transfer from short-term to long-term memory, but yes, I have heard and experienced that before.
Geez, I sure hope he's okay and not hurting in some way. That would be the worst, correcting a dog who isn't feeling up to par besides.
And thanks so much for the "fix" not "correct" comment, I am going to adopt that as my training motto. I need to FIX anything that goes wrong. 
I like the chiro idea, too. I've often thought maybe he's out of alignment a bit because when he gets real tired he tends to sidewind a bit.
Please keep the posts and ideas coming!


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Augie's Mom said:


> A question. Seeing that its too late to get the entry fee back and time off is already arranged, would it be a bad thing to go and use it for ring experience as long as he is physically ok?


I wouldn't. Why would you want to teach a dog that he can fail in the ring and it's absolutely fine. I'm not an advocate for corrections btw - I'm a pretty positive reinforcement based trainer - but I won't take a dog into the ring if he can't be successful and he's not confident doing what I'm going to ask him to do. Too many things could happen where he figures out that the ring is different than training. What would you have to gain by ring experience - this isn't a novice dog that is going for exposure. AKC doesn't allow training in the ring (though "training" varies from judge to judge) - you can't help him back over that high jump like you could in a match or in training...I only have to do the high jump when we're in training syndrome...

I've eaten entry fees - I'm sure I'll eat entry fees in the future (they seem to know when the check is cashed and the trials have closed).

Erica


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

In addition to back/hips/elbows, dont forget to rule out mouth/teeth problems...especially if he has been playing rough with other dogs...tugging games etc...

My tendency is to go back to the beginning...
Relationship building...long walks...belly rubs...back to play....fetching and heeling with toys...

Then add in dowel work - Sitting with dowel between my knees (peanut butter or cheese whiz never hurt).....C/T for a look/sniff...for a mouth on....then a hold...then a strong hold....then a hold and carry.....I will leave the dumbell out and around and if he looks at it, offeres to touch it lots of reward/praise.

You had a good relationship before this one event...time to earn back that trust......
Im with the others if you had good dumbell work w/o ear pinch, why go to it now?
Dont panic...time is your friend...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Luckily, he seems to be fine with me, after all, goldens can take a correction and just move on. I hope I didn't mislead, I didn't BEAT the dog, just gave him a very stern verbal correction and a minor shake of the scruff. But he's been playing with me (pestering) all evening, our relationship seems quite normal. At least I'm relieved about that! It's the picking up of the dumbbell he's worried about. 
I also had a brainstorm about something else, when I would tell him to "take it" (earlier today) and he wouldn't go, just sat there, I used my arm to motion for him to take it. Bent at the elbow and then moving the hand forward, hard to describe, but as I was reading everyone's posts tonight I realized I was giving him the signal for GO OUT. DUH. No wonder he was trying everything he knows to figure out what the heck I wanted him to do. So you are all 100% right, I'm stressed, I'm stressing him, and just making matters worse.
So I spent a little (very little, like 5 minutes) time with him with the dumbbell this evening, just holding it in my hand and asking him to take it. When he did, I made a HUGE deal out of it, treats, lots of praise. He was fine with that.
Next I put it on the floor right in front of me, and asked him to take it. He was fine with that, too, so lots of treats, praise, and QUIT for the night. We both quit on a very positive note.
Tomorrow if he's still okay with this, I think I will just try putting about 6 feet between me and him, putting the dumbbell halfway between us, and having him pick it up and bring it to me. If he will do that, I will quit for the day on that.
Thanks for all your suggestions and support. If anyone thinks of anything else, keep the ideas coming!


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## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

I deffintly second getting him adjusted advice. I also don't use the pinch to train the reterieve. So don't feel bad about that. I to felt the "pressure" to train that way. And I deffintly would not use it in this situation as it would only confuse him more. I would simply go back and act like you are first introudcing the dumbell. The step should go faster as he "knows" them but it will help rebuild his confidence. Once you have your ROF back start with low jumps and once you send him stand close to the jump so you can help him get it right. I may mix toy and DB ROH's. Slowly switching from mostly toy to mostly DB. Good luck and don't stress to much. We all make training boo boos. As my current trainer likes to say "its never the dogs fault". You are a great trainer as you realized that YOU made a mistake. As hard as it is forget about the shows and just work on rebuilding his confidence by helping him get it right and having a party. Keep us posted on how it goes.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Bizzy!
Today I worked him about 3-4 times just having him take the dumbbell from my hand, and he was fine with it. Then I threw it about 6 feet away,maybe a bit less, and he happily went and got it. Once I tried throwing it a bit further (maybe 12 feet) and he did a gorgeous "GO OUT", turned, sat, and waited for directions. Not what I asked for, but I didn't say anything, just said, "oh you silly boy", brought him back, and went back to throwing 6 feet 3 more times so we could end on a success note.
I got the jump out and threw a toy over it a few times, but I had put the jump down to 16 inches instead of his 24. He had a blast with that. I didn't try the dumbbell over the jump at all today.
Hard as it was for me, I QUIT then. I may try again for 5-10 minutes this afternoon. 
I did get the feeling once or twice today that he was messing with me, though...this is new....like he was playing a game and seeing what would happen...hmmmm.....so I didn't respond AT ALL when he didn't do it right, I just said oh silly boy, let's try that again.
This is just sooo frustrating. I hope I'm not trying to move too fast but he seemed happy and to be having fun with it.


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## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

I know it can be hard to quit when thing are going great. But it sounds like you are right on track. It may seem like he is messing with you as you are doing thing diffently than "normal" right now. I would stick with the not saying anything for a wrong response. One thing I read or heard that I am using is that you can use certain parts of an exersize and "safe" points. Let me see if I can explain this so it makes sence. Like in the ROH its the front postion. If lily makes a mistake I don't let her front I go to her. So if she starts to go around I would give a ah ah and start walking towards her. No fuss just take her back to where she picked up the DB and do everything I can to get her to jump back over. Just like what you are doing he is not wrong he is just not correct. A simple way of saying do over not what I wanted. He is thinking which is good keep it slow and positive. Good work.


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## Augie's Mom (Sep 28, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> Today I worked him about 3-4 times just having him take the dumbbell from my hand, and he was fine with it. Then I threw it about 6 feet away,maybe a bit less, and he happily went and got it. Once I tried throwing it a bit further (maybe 12 feet) and he did a gorgeous "GO OUT", turned, sat, and waited for directions. Not what I asked for, but I didn't say anything, just said, "oh you silly boy", brought him back, and went back to throwing 6 feet 3 more times so we could end on a success note.
> I got the jump out and threw a toy over it a few times, but I had put the jump down to 16 inches instead of his 24. He had a blast with that. I didn't try the dumbbell over the jump at all today.
> Hard as it was for me, I QUIT then. I may try again for 5-10 minutes this afternoon.
> I did get the feeling once or twice today that he was messing with me, though...this is new....like he was playing a game and seeing what would happen...hmmmm.....so I didn't respond AT ALL when he didn't do it right, I just said oh silly boy, let's try that again.
> This is just sooo frustrating. I hope I'm not trying to move too fast but he seemed happy and to be having fun with it.


Yipee, it sounds like you are on the right track. Continued success in your re-training.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I took him back up to the pet hotel and worked a few more minutes on the ROF, and he's getting better in BABY steps. Most of the time he'd go pick up the dumbbell now, then stand there with it in his mouth and stare stupidly at me like, NOW WHAT DO I DO???
If I say, "good boy, come", he comes flying over to me. So I guess I will have to do that for a while now. I'm so confused, though. Will that teach him to not come unless I say come? Will it make things worse rather than better?? 
A couple times he did a GO-OUT instead of a retrieve, and I just calmly went to him, told him he was a silly boy, picked up the dumbbell, brought him back to heel position, and started over. That seemed to work REAL well, on the next throw he headed out (both times) quickly to pick up the dumbbell. Stood and stared at me with it in his mouth instead of coming back, but, first things first....
Sigh......
Is he just messing with me? How can a dog that was 100% on this go to not having a clue, even though I corrected him accidentally yesterday?? Is there more to this than just my inadventant correction????


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## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

What you may be seeing is what may have started happening Before you corrected. Dogs will occasionly regress in training. He may have started to do that. I don't think calling him right now is a all bad thing. Just vary how you do it tell him what a great boy he is as he picks it up and hurry back. Or just start walking running away to get him moving on his own then praise him. ect


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Maybe take the "verbal" praise out and use your hands and maybe a step or two backwards. Gradually reducing everything till you are again standing motionless.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I took him to training last night, and the trainer did a run-thru for me. His heeling, figure 8, broad jump, and drop on recall were all up to his usual performance.
The problem with the dumbbell both on flat and over the high is horrible.
The trainer had me do it several times each way, and said that the dog has totally lost his confidence. He said Tito is NOT defying me in any way, so at least that's good to know.
He suggested pretty much the same stuff that you kind people have suggested, along with lecturing me about allowing him to make mistakes, and a BIG lecture about this is what happens to people who have unusually good dogs, when the dog has a set-back we freak out (all too true) and we have to back down. He said a lot of times our dogs are this good just because they ARE so sensitive, and we have to take the bitter with the better.
The trainer's advice, surprisingly, was to go ahead and show him. He said to spend the next 10 days until the show just working on the dog's confidence with the retrieves, very happy, lots of praise, and he said REPEAT the commands as many times as I need to.
He told me that my dog is uncertain, and he needs me to keep telling him YES, that's right! GOOD "take it", GOOD "COME", etc. so that he rebuilds his confidence. He said that in initial training we'd wean that away real fast, but that I need to watch my dog and unless his tail is wagging and ears are forward, keep the verbals coming. Then, as Hank said, once the dog seems happy EVERY time slowly start taking the verbals away again. He said there's a huge difference between a dog learning what to do (he already knows) and a dog learning that he's making the right choice and that I'm pleased with his performance. 
This guy is an AKC judge, BTW, and he said worst that will happen is dog will stand and look at you and not retrieve the dumbbell. So what? He said he will NOT learn bad behavior in the ring, because he's not "testing me", he's not confident. He said if Tito just stands there, or runs to the dumbbell and doesn't pick it up, just go right ahead and repeat the command, he's already NQ'd so just be upbeat, repeat it, then praise him for picking it up and coming back. I think I can do that, since I'll be going in fully expecting him to NQ anyway.
So we will be working hard on confidence for the next 10 days....and then deciding whether or not to show....


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

This is a very educational thread, and I am drinking it in. Thanks for sharing your problem-solving with Tito to the forum, and to everyone posting wise advice borne of your vast collective training experience.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I'd try this - it's what I use for speed on the dumbbell...

As soon as the dog is about to pick it up, while his back is still to you, take off and run away! Then, as you know the dog is coming in and almost back to you, turn and face the dog and invite him to jump up on you - don't even ask for a front.

See if that gets him back into the pattern of returning to you with the dumbbell, then start asking for fronts, etc.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I love that idea! He's seeming to "slightly" get back the idea of picking up the dumbell, but he stands there with it in his mouth until I say, "good boy! come!" I love the running away from him! I'm going to try that tomorrow! I don't care about the front or the finish right now, I just want to get thru to him that I'm REAL pleased if he picks up the dumbell and comes back to me with it!!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> I love that idea! He's seeming to "slightly" get back the idea of picking up the dumbell, but he stands there with it in his mouth until I say, "good boy! come!" I love the running away from him! I'm going to try that tomorrow! I don't care about the front or the finish right now, I just want to get thru to him that I'm REAL pleased if he picks up the dumbell and comes back to me with it!!


How'd the running away work out for you?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The running away helps HUGELY! He comes flying back after me. (He still doesn't always go take it, but he's up to about 50% of the time, but that's another piece of the puzzle). Now I"m trying to get it so that I can just start to move my body like I"m planning to run....
Which brings about a question, in the show ring, if I were to sort of move my shoulders (body language!) like I'm planning to turn around, is that a major deduction or an NQ? 
NOT that I plan to do that, unless, of course, I absolutely have to if he's looking like he's going to stand there and stare dumbly at me...


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> The running away helps HUGELY! He comes flying back after me. (He still doesn't always go take it, but he's up to about 50% of the time, but that's another piece of the puzzle). Now I"m trying to get it so that I can just start to move my body like I"m planning to run....
> Which brings about a question, in the show ring, if I were to sort of move my shoulders (body language!) like I'm planning to turn around, is that a major deduction or an NQ?
> NOT that I plan to do that, unless, of course, I absolutely have to if he's looking like he's going to stand there and stare dumbly at me...


My suggestion is to work one criteria at a time. If you're still at only 50% success with him *going out* to take it, IMO, you're not ready to add him bringing it back to you yet.

I like to use the 80/20 rule from Steve White... If your animal is successful at your current criteria a min of 80% of the time, you can increase creteria in difficulty by 20%.

Can't say as to if it's an NQ vs. substantial deduction - I'm not sure. I can say, though, that I wouldn't want to try and save it with a prompt like that. If my dog wasn't coming back, I'd take the NQ and cheerfully double-command my dog to help him be successful.


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

I did force-fetch with Gabby so a lot of my thoughts don't apply to this situation. 

I did have a similar situation though- and it involved a flexi over the high. I switch to just a (loose, but there in case I needed it) rope over the high for future situations and we didn't have similar meltdowns. I'm starting to wonder if sensitive ones have issues with flexis over the jump- there is a lot of pressure coming from the leash, they have somehow gotten confused- easy to freak out. It's easy to force them over with the flexi when you actually have to pick up, tighten the rope, etc- you tend to take a moment and evaluate the dog. 

I would consider a lot of aspects of the show- are you traveling? Is it at home? How are your nerves anyway? How has this affected them? I think unless this was almost completely resolved - like getting the dumbbell 97/100 times - I would just do the Rally Advanced. There's no reason you can't show in Rally Advanced unless he fails a physical.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

We did training class today and he's getting better in tiny baby steps. He did the ROF perfectly 3 times in a row, so I stopped. Then we did the hour long class, then I tried again and he had a melt down. So, we're getting better but slow.
The ROH was, hmmm, not good. He took the jump fine, ran about 8 feet, turned, sat, and looked at me waiting for the next command. DUH. 
The show isn't far, so I've decided to wait until the day before the show (Fri, yikes, that's soon) to decide whether to scratch him from Open. But I"m going to do the rally for sure, we BOTH need to be able to succeed right now!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I posted this elsewhere on the forum so I won't go on and on (ha, yes I will!) but he did it! He got his second CDX leg today! He went and got the dumbell on both the ROF and the ROH like he had NEVER even had a problem. Made a few other dumb errors, but qualified with a 187. I'm just thrilled.
Oh, got his first Rally advanced leg, too, with a 93 that I didn't think he deserved. I thought he should qualify, yes, but I thought the judging was very lenient, he probably deserved at least 10 less than that!
Thanks again for all the help and support, it made all the difference this past week!


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