# God help me, JJ is a monster



## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

I don't know where to begin.

My 16-month-old Golden, JJ, is a monster, and I'm in no way exaggerating :no:

It's come to the point where my girlfriend wants to spend money we don't really have to send him for in-board training where he goes and lives with a trainer and their pack for a few weeks. I don't think I'd let that happen and would put my foot down.

JJ is a BIG jumper, doesn't know how to control his bite, and gets in these moods where he jumps all over you pulls at your clothes. I can't tell you how many shirts and skirts have been ripped.

He basically can't meet any new faces during our walks nor can we have company over cause he doesn't know how to control himself and tries to jump at them and nip them if possible. If he can't, which he usually can't since he's on a leash for a better part of the day (he's eaten about 5 of them already), he'll instead jump all over us and bite us out of frustration. I've never heard a dog whimper so much and so loud when meeting new people. He's get overlllllllly excited. We've ran out of people to practice introductions on since he's basically mauled everybody we know.

My girlfriend says she's scared to sit on the couch in the living room and watch TV cause any moment JJ may decided to start jumping all over her and biting her, not in an aggressive I'm going to kill you sort of way, but in a way that's not at all acceptable, or comfortable for that matter. He appears to act up more with her than with me.

He's persistent, which is good in some ways, bad in others. For example, one day, I had to tell him 76 times to stop going after one of our throw rugs, in a span of about 4 hours of keep track. I decided to keep track since it was starting to get ridiculous. 

He can't be left alone in a room by himself and still needs to be left in a crate when nobody's home. I even have to put him in the crate when I'm home alone and need to shower. He has yet to get the full run of the house and is limited to just the upstairs of the house, mostly in the same area where he grew up as a puppy - living room, dining room and kitchen. If you're in the living room and he leaves and goes into the kitchen, you have to follow him or else he'll be on the counter or table. If you're in the kitchen and he goes into the hallway, you have to follow him or he'll going after the throw rug, or decide to look on top of the hutch in the living room, which he's been told about 1000 times (literally) to get off of. The moment you leave the room, he's back to doing what he was doing two minutes ago. Due to this, he's restricted from most of the house cause you literally have to follow his every step, leaving you unable to make dinner and do the regular household duties. After several times of telling him to stop going after the rug or telling him to get off the hutch and trying to divert his attention to something else like a bone or tennis ball, he'll do one of two things; either start chasing and pulling the hair out of his tail, or jumping and biting at you, all out of frustration for correcting him.

He gets plenty of exercise. He walks several miles a day and is outside more than any other day in the neighborhood, so I don't believe this is a case of pent up energy.

Aside from working with a trainer when we attended classes, we've worked with two separate personal trainers in-house to address JJ's behavior. Neither of the two really deal with the issues at hand and would rather teach JJ the basic foundation (sit, stay, down, loose leash), which he already has and already knows. I think they more or less don't know how to control or address his behavior and level of excitement.

Please don't take this as me saying I can't take JJ anymore and I'm giving him up. No matter what he does or how bad he is, he's still my boy. I'm working with him everyday the best that I can, hoping one day I'll wake up and see some improvement. It just frustrates me (I don't let him see it or know it) cause I know how much JJ loves attention and people and was hoping one day he could become a therapy dog and come with me to schools and nursing homes to comfort people since people are who he loves to be around.

I don't know what I'm going to do here, but JJ and I are going to work through all this one way or another.

Speaking on the devil, he's a recent shot of the little guy taken a few days ago. 

"_I don't know what I'm looking at, but I see it_"


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

WOW - must be very very frustrating. Has he always been like this? Have you checked with the vet about it? How is he when you go to the vet?


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## mlbdenver (Jun 26, 2012)

JJ is gorgeous!!!

Can I ask why you are opposed to sending him to boarding training? My mom and I rescued a lab/dobie mix a while back and he was totally crazy and we could not control him (nor did we know how - this was a few decades back when I was in high school). We sent him to a training academy for a month and when he came back he was a complete angel, and became my mom's best friend. I realize its not ideal, but it solved the problem that we faced. 

I'm sure there will be others that claim that's the easy way out, but it looks like nothing else is working.

_Edited to add: Caveat, I have no idea how much this service costs. I can understand if its a lot and is prohibitive._


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## mmacleod75 (Apr 7, 2012)

JJ is one beautiful boy for sure!! 
Sorry you're going through this, just out of curiousity, is he neutered?


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Not keen on 'board and train' myself, you have no control over how they manage your dog. Have you considered a certified behaviorist as opposed to a trainer? Could help.


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## Sokokomo (Aug 15, 2011)

I have a similar 'pup', who is 16 months old and displays all what you mention, having to follow from room to room, he cannot be left as he will be causing mischief. We can't have any rugs, mats, or anything out of the ordinary. We also have to shut him behind doggy gates when we go in the shower, and he has his own small room (with nothing in except his bed) for when we go out. He can't be left alone with soft beds, any type of soft furnishings as he will eat them, and we have the operation bills to prove it! 
He also has what I think is known on here as 'excessive greeting disorder' with anybody he doesn't know inside or outside of the house. I similarly don't have visitors go through his dog gate unless they are fully prepared for the onslaught of golden retriever claws and tail! (He never uses his mouth though as it sounds JJ does). Work on him not putting his teeth on you (soft mouth exercises, Ian Dunbar). 
I go to training classes every week or twice a week with Leo and this seems to help...I can tell when he hasn't been for a week! Maybe being in a setting with other people who like dogs will teach him how to be around them and greet in a more civilised manner. 
I also think he needs more leadership and direction inside the house. Don't be afraid to tell him things assertively, even his basic commands that he knows how to follow rather than shouting to get off things, so he knows you call the shots. Trainers have also suggested to me basic things around the house that might sound strange to people with perfect dogs, but can just help JJ understand he does as you say. These are things like never stepping over or around him if he is laid out on the floor, make him move out of your way. Does JJ bring you toys to play with? I was told to remove his toys from just being scattered. When you want to play, get out a toy - this shows him you initiate play time, not him. Obviously I wouldn't like to do this for the next 10 years with Leo, but for now we are trying to teach him that we own the house and not him, and he follows our lead, without us being too over the top or the 'dominant' one. Just small things that in a dogs mind are a step-up. This may help you control him in the house with other people. When he comes up to you for a stroke, ignore him...this will say to him that you decide when he gets attention, just as you would expect him to act around a guest. Call him over to you for a stroke when you decide (can be as often as you like, as long as he hasn't initiated it by putting his head in your lap!). 
I hope you get some other suggestions from people who have been through the adolescent time, and come out the other side hopefully(!). Think about the training classes, it is hard work controlling Leo around the other people and dogs who are surely there for him to say hello to?! But even doing lead work (which he can do as you say JJ can) in a communal setting is teaching him that everybody isn't there for his amusement! Just as you would expect with visitors. They sure are hard work, but I have noticed Leo being a lot more settled in the house recently, happy to sit and watch the world go by that little bit more, and visitors have commented he is better than a few months ago. Try a few doggy gates with puppy-proofed rooms, it will get him used to staying calmly in a room without destroying everything (say after a walk or when you see him struggling to keep his eyes open!), a little more natural and transitional than the crate. 
Sokokomo
P.s. Is he neutered? I ask purely nosily as Leo isn't and wondering if it will make a difference!


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## Nomes (Nov 7, 2011)

mlbdenver- if i understood it right, they don't have the money for boarding training.

Well, i do feel your pain...Casey is/was much like JJ.
Crazy spurts of energy, jumping, and nipping...it was awful! His was usually due to excess energy however...it would mostly happen if i hadn't given him the exercise he needed that day. The way i controlled his problem was using his training collar when i knew he would get "that way"...which was normally right before i brought him in for the evening...He is very respectful when he's on his special collar so it worked great. 
am i right that you can not predict JJ's behavior though? because that makes it way trickier!
I'm not sure if anyone on here will be able to solve it for you...The only thing i can suggest is to NEVER let him get away with it!
What do you do when he does this? try to fend him off until it passes? because that's not going to solve it...you need to be aggressive about it!
you need to be in control...grab his collar behind his neck so he can't snap at you. I put Casey on his side in a submissive position whenever he gets the crazies, and he has to lay there until he calms down. a hand directely under his jaw holding him down is enough. But if he gets very worked up as Casey does, you might need another hand on his stomach area to keep the back legs down as well. 
I used to get pretty worked up and anxious whenever he would do this...but when i stayed calm and in control, he calmed down so much quicker. They really do feel our emotions! keep your cool and stay in control!


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> WOW - must be very very frustrating. Has he always been like this? Have you checked with the vet about it? How is he when you go to the vet?


He's always been like this. There's a few threads on here regarding his bad behavior and what we've been doing to try and break it. Even the trainers were amazed at how many things we've tried and how consistent we've been. One called us "vigilant" and another said I was doing "advanced training" when it came to teaching him the basics. It's not that he doesn't have a foundation when it comes to his training. He just flips out from time-to-time. 

He use to be real bad at the vet, but he's gotten better. The last time we were there she was even impressed, mentioning how he was like an entirely different dog. It's worth mentioning though that he had a pinch collar on at the time and he seems to know that whenever he has that on, there's punishment if he acts up, so he tends to act better. Not 100% better, but better than when he's not wearing it at the vet or during our walks.




mlbdenver said:


> JJ is gorgeous!!!
> 
> Can I ask why you are opposed to sending him to boarding training? My mom and I rescued a lab/dobie mix a while back and he was totally crazy and we could not control him (nor did we know how - this was a few decades back when I was in high school). We sent him to a training academy for a month and when he came back he was a complete angel, and became my mom's best friend. I realize its not ideal, but it solved the problem that we faced.
> 
> ...


Thanks.

I'm opposed to sending him to boarding training or "doggy boot camp" as many call it cause I fear that it won't solve my problems and the money will have been a waste. I fear that JJ may look at the trainer as his handler and listen to him/her but still not me. I also fear that he'll go to one of these boarding schools and become part of a "pack" and the trainer won't see the bad behavior as often as it happens cause JJ's attention will be focused elsewhere or he'll be completely drained from running around for a couple hours everyday with a bunch of dogs. I've also read those horror stories about how dogs go there with a set of problems and come home with a bigger list of problem, and how some of them have become fearful of adult men cause the trainers resorted to bad techniques to correct the dog when all else failed. Not to mention the camps are like 2,000-3,000 around here, and that's hard to cough up without getting a guarantee that he'll behave when it's all said and done. It's not that we don't have the money, but its hard to part ways with when there's a chance nothing will change or things could get worse. If there was some sort of guarantee, I'd be all over it and be currently be on my way there.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

mmacleod75 said:


> JJ is one beautiful boy for sure!!
> Sorry you're going through this, just out of curiousity, is he neutered?


Thanks, and yes, he is neutered. We were hoping that would answer our payers, but after he heeled up, he was back to his monstrous self.


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## mlbdenver (Jun 26, 2012)

Makes sense. I agree that it has risks and is mighty expensive. It did work for us, but YMMV. I'm sure you'll get lots more great advice here on the GRF, as there's lots of expertise here.

Good luck with JJ.


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## Nomes (Nov 7, 2011)

i would also recommend watching some Cesar Millan....that man is amazing! 
he bases his show off people like you....people with a crazy dog! you might look into getting on his show.
Best of luck!


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Nomes said:


> mlbdenver- if i understood it right, they don't have the money for boarding training.
> 
> Well, i do feel your pain...Casey is/was much like JJ.
> Crazy spurts of energy, jumping, and nipping...it was awful! His was usually due to excess energy however...it would mostly happen if i hadn't given him the exercise he needed that day. The way i controlled his problem was using his training collar when i knew he would get "that way"...which was normally right before i brought him in for the evening...He is very respectful when he's on his special collar so it worked great.
> ...


Yes, the behavior is very unpredictable. Here's an scenario. He's laying on my girlfriend lap chewing a bone as she watches TV in the living. All is fine. Things go fine for 20, 30, 40, 60 minutes. Then, all of a sudden, JJ decides to drop the bone and bite her hand instead, or, if not that, suddenly roll of his back and start hitting her with his paws. At that point she tells him off and pushes him off (as we were told to do by a trainer). He usually jumps back up, with his mouth open, trying to grab whatever he can whether it be clothes or skin. At that point she, or me if I'm in this situation, say firmly, "enough", than grab the leash and pull up firmly, taking him directly to the bathroom, putting him in there and closing the door on the leash for a 15-30 second timeout, giving him just enough leash to sit or stand while he's in there. When we let him out, we give him a "time-in" (showing him what's acceptable instead) by putting our hands out and telling him "kisses" or having him sit infront of us for tickles.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Sorry to hear you are having so much trouble with such a handsome boy. Unfortunately, I do not have any new suggestions.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Nomes said:


> i would also recommend watching some Cesar Millan....that man is amazing!
> he bases his show off people like you....people with a crazy dog! you might look into getting on his show.
> Best of luck!


I watch it regularly and thought about trying to get on his show. However, they're no longer accepting applications for people in the US and are instead taking applications from people in New Zealand for his new show.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Thank goodness he's beautiful<:


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

There was one local trainer JJ and I happened to cross paths with in town one morning that he jumped on and tried to nip. I explained his behaviors to her and the things I've done to try and stop it and she said something along the lines of that it's not that JJ wants to bite people, he has to bite people in order to calm down. She called it something. I want to say a "bite ambition", but I don't think that's right. It seemed to make sense somewhat cause when we meet new people, if he can just nip their hand real quick or the sleeve of their shirt, he'll calm down within a minute. If he can't nip them, he'll try to nip me instead and go insane, jumping and lunging.

and I've also been noticing that when my mom gets home, who he use to jump on and nip a lot, he runs and grabs a bone or a tug toy before approaching her, as if he knows he has the urge to bite and is trying to divert it to a toy. If only I could teach him to shove a tennis ball in his mouth and hold it every time somebody comes over or carry with us on his walks, that way he'll chomp the ball instead of fingers.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Control Unleashed and Crate Games would be good places to start.

Your JJ is not a monster, just untrained and doing what works to get attention. 

How often do you reward laying down by you? Sitting ? Wlaking quietly by your side?


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Sunrise said:


> Control Unleashed and Crate Games would be good places to start.
> 
> Your JJ is not a monster, just untrained and doing what works to get attention.
> 
> How often do you reward laying down by you? Sitting ? Wlaking quietly by your side?


We've played and continue to play crate games from time-to-time. I can get him in his crate when people come over, but I can't ever let him out cause he doesn't calm down. He'll lay quitely, making you want to think he's calm, but the moment you let him out it's like he flipped the on switch and goes crazy. We often reward laying down quietly, sitting, walking nicely, either with praise, treats or a nice fat kong. Out of an hour walk, JJ and I talk (yes, I answer for him) for about 50 minutes. We talk about the weather, the cars, the people we pass, the guy on the bicycle in his spandex and how he looks like a giant condom and all sorts of things. There's plenty of "good boys" throw in there too when he's walking nice and we got the "J" going in our leash, which is like 95% of the time (it use to be more like an L when he was a puppy haha). He's great on a leash when it comes to walking, we just can't stop and meet anybody. He's recently learned that when I stop walking, he sits by my side, which is working great, but he still lunges for people when they're about to pet him. He'll only lunge and try and nip people he's about to meet, otherwise I can walk him through a crowd with no problem without him trying to "get" people.

I have one of these and put it on the moment I wake up or get home and it doesn't come off until I go to sleep, so I'm always prepared to reward good behaviors.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

I also want to say that JJ has matured into a gorgeous young man!!!

I can sympathize with you as my Lincoln sounds very similar....but he's 3.5 years old!

He has excellent behaviour in the house and I trust him completely. 

However, there are times when we're outside he gets the "crazies" and starts jumping and biting. Yes, I have several shirts/pants/arms with holes in them. He is a very high energy dog and if we don't drain his energy, he gets like that. If the dogs are outside and I start petting one of them, he'll get excited and that's when it starts. I've been giving him a firm "sit" and then praising him. If he does it again, another firm "sit". Most of the time now, he'll just walk away (because we're no fun anymore)!! If we're playing with one of his tug toys, I will play with him and then in the middle of playing, I will say "that's enough", make him sit and calm down. When he's calm, I will engage him again. I want him to know that being calm can still result in additional play time. 

I've been really working on his impulse control (or lack thereof). That sounds like what JJ's issue is. Lincoln loves playing ball. We used to just throw the ball and let him go. Now, before I throw the ball, I have him heel, sit and wait. Then I give the command to "go get it". He doesn't get anything until he is calm and under control. He still gets the crazies once in a while but they're definitely getting better.

There is lots of good information on the internet about impulse control. Have you read the book "Control Unleashed"???


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

You have the twin to my Tayla. From experience I can say punishment based training only ramps her up. Find a behavorist/trainer in your area that understands issues of frustration. Tayla gets easily frustrated and that sets her off. We have her in K9 Nose Work which helps. Tayla is 9 months old and is very much like yours. You are not alone. 


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Laurie said:


> I also want to say that JJ has matured into a gorgeous young man!!!
> 
> I can sympathize with you as my Lincoln sounds very similar....but he's 3.5 years old!
> 
> ...


No, I have read the book. Might have to look into it.

Our trainer now has us working on impulse control and teaching JJ to maintain eye contact. He's been doing great, but it hasn't helped that sudden moments where he flips our, nor has it helped him to stop going after the throw rug or other things. He knows "leave it" real well, he just doesn't understand that I mean "leave it for good and don't return to it". 

Our trainer has us working on teaching JJ boundaries. We start by sitting on the floor with a tug toy. We play for a couple minutes and than I take it from him either by telling him to "give it" or making a kiss noise, causing him to release it. I than reward him and put the toy in my lap. If he tries to get the toy, I give him a forearm and tell him firmly, "OFF". If need be, I continue doing that until he finally looks away from the toy or sits and looks me in the eye, than I reward him again and play continues. We go through this routine several times. Once he had that down, next was teaching him that he only goes up on your lap when you say so and not whenever he wants. To do this, the trainer told us to take the same position on the floor and to snap our fingers, say "Up" and grab him and motion him onto our laps. After a few minutes, tell him off and push/move him off you and reward him for not trying to jump back up. If he tries to jump up, its a stiff forearm and a stern "Off" until he sits. He does all of this well and picked it up in a matter of a day. But it has in no way helped with his outbursts. It's helped a lot with playing though cause now he won't try and rip the toy out of your hand or lap like he use to. He'll now sit infront of you, look you in the eyes and wait.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Tayla's Mom said:


> You have the twin to my Tayla. From experience I can say punishment based training only ramps her up. Find a behavorist/trainer in your area that understands issues of frustration. Tayla gets easily frustrated and that sets her off. We have her in K9 Nose Work which helps. Tayla is 9 months old and is very much like yours. You are not alone.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using PG Free


Our current trainer and the one we've had before him are both certified behaviorists and are using his frustration against him in several ways to try and teach him that being calm and collected gets him what he wants. I dunno, this is what I pay them the big bucks to figure out haha.

Punishments in the bathroom are only given when biting to hard, and in our situation, they have shown to help. I had an x-pen before using the bathroom and no matter how many times you put him in there for a timeout, he came out ready to go and wouldn't quite. With the bathroom, it's one timeout and the behavior stops. We use to have to give him 20-30 time outs a day in the x-pen. With the bathroom, it was 5-6 timeouts for the fitst couple of days and around 2-3 a day now. They have shown to help, but the fact he's getting them at all isn't good in our book, especially since the behavior he's getting them for is bad, real bad. It's not like just jumping on somebody. It's running from across the room full speed and lunging at them with his mouth wide open and ready to chomp.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

JDK said:


> No, I have read the book. Might have to look into it.
> 
> Our trainer now has us working on impulse control and teaching JJ to maintain eye contact. He's been doing great, but it hasn't helped that sudden moments where he flips our, nor has it helped him to stop going after the throw rug or other things. He knows "leave it" real well, he just doesn't understand that I mean "leave it for good and don't return to it".
> 
> Our trainer has us working on teaching JJ boundaries. We start by sitting on the floor with a tug toy. We play for a couple minutes and than I take it from him either by telling him to "give it" or making a kiss noise, causing him to release it. I than reward him and put the toy in my lap. If he tries to get the toy, I give him a forearm and tell him firmly, "OFF". If need be, I continue doing that until he finally looks away from the toy or sits and looks me in the eye, than I reward him again and play continues. We go through this routine several times. Once he had that down, next was teaching him that he only goes up on your lap when you say so and not whenever he wants. To do this, the trainer told us to take the same position on the floor and to snap our fingers, say "Up" and grab him and motion him onto our laps. After a few minutes, tell him off and push/move him off you and reward him for not trying to jump back up. If he tries to jump up, its a stiff forearm and a stern "Off" until he sits. He does all of this well and picked it up in a matter of a day. But it has in no way helped with his outbursts. It's helped a lot with playing though cause now he won't try and rip the toy out of your hand or lap like he use to. He'll now sit infront of you, look you in the eyes and wait.


It definitely sounds like you're on the right track with JJ. If you keep it up, remain calm, be diligent, be consistent, JJ will come around. Just remember he's not doing it to make you angry or to be a monster, he just hasn't learned to control his excitement quite yet. Make him work for everything he gets....nothing is free for him.


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## goldilover2650 (Jun 14, 2012)

He sure is handsome!!! My bailey was a jumper and a nipper too. We sent her to two week training... I was having a baby so figured it might be a good time to send her as we would be super busy with the baby. I wouldn't waste your money...they said how great she was but she jumped as soon as my husband went to pick her up!!! We take part of the blame as we likely didn't follow up as much as we should have but were super busy with an infant.

The thing that seemed to work best is looking away and folding our arms. She doesn't jump on us at all anymore and is better with friends and relatives. I tell everyone to make like a statue, look away and ignore and it works as long as they really do it. Once she is calm and sitting, then she can be pet. I know it might be hard to ignore a 70 lb beast coming your way but it did work for us. Pushing him away and shouting is still giving him attention. He probably likes it!! 

You probably tried the silent treatment already but thought i would throw it out there!!!



Sokokomo....I laughed so hard when I read "excessive greeting disorder"!!!!!


Best of luck. I know it can be very fustrating!!!


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Laurie said:


> It definitely sounds like you're on the right track with JJ. If you keep it up, remain calm, be diligent, be consistent, JJ will come around. Just remember he's not doing it to make you angry or to be a monster, he just hasn't learned to control his excitement quite yet. Make him work for everything he gets....nothing is free for him.


That's the rule. If you want something, sit there and tell me with your eyes or show me you can remain clam. There's no "free petting" at this point.


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## Phoebe's mom (Jan 17, 2012)

I would put a prong collar on him and keep him tied to you all the time. This will help with the following him everywhere and the prong collar will help with the jumping and excited ness. It's just an extra bit to get the message across. Instead of telling him 76 times, good job keeping track of that by the way. I would have lost count long before then. 
Good luck. 


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

If it is any consolation - Jacks was bouncy and mouthy (only with me, I didn't give hin a chance to mouth other people) when he was the same age. If he got excited and worked up - he lost control of his mouth. So I lived with bruised legs pretty much for the first couple years of his life. 

I'm not going to say it completely stopped. When I'm training with him, I simply pay attention and calm him down before he gets out of control. 

It's not that much different from our collie. Living with a herding breed means you do not run with him or get him too hyped up. All his instincts tell him to nip, and unlike with Jacks - his nips REALLY hurt and shred clothes. 

So you may need to really work on training him and finding a way to calm him down and distract him before he gets too nuts.

With Jacks - some of that excitement is AWESOME. You want a dog who is "up" and a little bit crazy. It makes a lot of the obedience training a lot more fun. You want a dog who is jumping and looks like he wants to explode.  

I would definitely get him spending more time out of the crate. That is the only way he's going to learn to be calm. 

And again, when you are playing and he starts mouthing, that's when you stop the excitement and calm him down. 

No visits with other people unless you have a leash on him and a hand on his collar to control him and keep his feet on the ground. Being petted is the reward for keeping his feet on the ground.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

How about signing up for a CGC class? In my CGC class we worked on a lot of the things you are talking about, especially learning to remain calm while greeting other people.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I feel your pain. Flora has an internal switch that makes her go from a sweet, relaxed dog to this neurotic, over-the-top whining/crying/roo'ing jumping and pawing machine that is so overwhelmingly obnoxious and annoying I have to sometimes grit my teeth to keep from screaming. She's significantly older than JJ though, so this doesn't happen too often and when it does I've just resorted to shutting her in another room until she chills out.

I wish I had tips for you. One thing that's vaguely interesting is what my sister-in-law does when Flora turns into Miss Hyde. She used to work with mentally challenged children, and occasionally had to like... squeeze children or something when they were getting agitated. So she'll get Flora in a really tight bearhug and squeeze her when she's all hyper, and for some reason that seems to calm Flora down. It's really weird. After reading about thundershirts I've often wondered if a thundershirt would keep Flora calmer when she's around a lot of people since they essentially employ the same tactic.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

He is definitely gorgeous. And I'm sorry to read what an awful time you're having.

I hope you'll take what I'm about to say constructively.

You say he already has the basics (sit, stay, lie down, etc.). I would argue he doesn't. If he truly did, you would be able to say "sit" in the middle of one of his crazy spells, and he would. Work more on the basics, with only positive reinforcement, until they are solid. Encourage the behaviour you want - don't punish the behaviour you don't want. The book The Art of Raising a Puppy by the Monks of New Skete gives some really good insight into how and why puppies learn. I found it really, really helpful in training. 

You say when he starts batting at your gf, she pushes him off the couch. I know for a fact that that would be a HUGE play signal to my dog, and she, too, would come leaping back up at me and grab my arm in her mouth. I have a very mouthy dog, too - maybe the mouthiest ever! You HAVE to teach JJ to get a toy every SINGLE time he comes for pats or love. EVERY TIME. There has to be no attention without a toy. A stuffed toy.

To teach it: next time he gets mouthy, say "get a toy." Get up, go get a toy, bring it back, say "good toy!!" as you give it to him ansd give him HUGE love. Do this until he gets the toy himself. He'll learn fast. No exceptions. No love without a toy.

The locking in the bathroom - the time out? Put it out to pasture. You are accomplishing nothing but confusing him and frustrating him and making him even MORE overjoyed to get out. And he truly has no clue why you are shutting him in there.

Oh, and on walks? I DID bring a tennis ball - and everytime we met someone new, I DID shove it in her mouth! Truly, my dog had to never be given a chance to mouth anyone. She turns 12 in a few weeks and she STILL mouths unless I remind her to get a toy for her mouth. But she stops mouthing RIGHT away and gets the toy as soon as I do.

I wouldn't do the boarding school route either. You have no idea how they will treat JJ. I think you guys need to do more training and be 100% consistent with him. Calm voices, no getting angry and yelling. A good, positive reinforcement trainer. And truthfully, I would just start from zero. Don't give all the history. Let JJ unfold before your trainer and go from there. Both you and your gf. And consistency consistency.

I really hope this helps.


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

You've gotten a lot of great advice already, and it helps to know you aren't alone. I would just add one book if you haven't already read it: "Dogs Behaving Badly" by Nick Dodman. It's not new so should be available at the library. Easy to read and it helped me with one of my wild ones.

BTW - JJ is a gorgeous boy


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

When Maddie got crazy, the gentle leader went on & she was kenneled when needed. She is so much better now & has turned into a golden retriever. I feel your pain, really,patience & a firm hand works. Best of luck with your boy, remember, this too shall pass.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Sweet Girl said:


> He is definitely gorgeous. And I'm sorry to read what an awful time you're having.
> 
> I hope you'll take what I'm about to say constructively.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestions.

For the sake of conversation, I'd like to go over a few things with you.

JJ does know the basics, but you're right, they're not rock solid since he won't obey them at all times, no matter what. What I meant when I said that was that he knows the commands and knows what they mean and it's not like I'm telling him to do things he's never done or saying words he's not familiar with. We always encourage his good behavior when he's playing nice and laying calmly. The only thing we punish is his hard biting since that's been the only way to stop it. We don't punish if he just jumps. We just quickly make a kissing noise and put our hands out in front of us and give him the choice to kiss or bite, the latter of which leads to a timeout. Our trainer told us that the minute he bites too hard, he gets a timeout in the bathroom for 15-30seconds, followed by a "time-in". It came to this cause there was no way to stop JJ. The trainer couldn't even stop him after trying several things. He wouldn't take to a toy, treats, or anything and just kept jumping and biting at him. You could grab a toy to try and get him to play with it and he would push it out of the way and take to your hand instead, or bite the toy where you were holding it.

This is what it says on the worksheet our trainer gave me about "time-outs and time-ins". I'd like to share it with you just so you know what I've been told and what our current trainer is trying to achieve.



> Objective: Here is an example for stopping hard mouthing of your hands
> 
> Brief time-outs: hard mouthing leads to an abrupt & temporary loss of contact with you
> Time-out: "Off!" said sternly - immediately lift up on the leash, keeping it taut and firmly take dog to lighted bathroom
> ...


The time-outs seem to be working somewhat as the behavior is less frequent then it use to be and we're able to talk him out of it more by making a kiss noise and putting our hands out to receive a kiss. One time-out usually does the trick to stop the behavior. It's not like he comes bolting out of the bathroom and is ready to attack again. He's quick to give you kisses when he comes out.

Keep in mind that I'm just doing what was told to me by a trainer that's been working with dogs for 25-years and has trained many police dogs. He's a well-known guy with good credentials, so I listen to what he says and try and follow his routine.

Yes, when JJ starts getting mouthy, my girlfriend pushes him off her. Again, this is what the trainer told us to do. Give him a stiff forearm and tell him "Off!". This is part of his "body boundary" routine, which goes a little something like this.



> Objective: Dog learns not to jump up on your lap, back, or arms, or leap at your face, while sitting cross-legged on the floor
> 
> 1. With the dog on leash, sit cross-legged on the floor.
> 
> ...


The trainer told us that this whole boundary thing applies when on the couch as well. While it works on the floor, it doesn't really work on the couch.

On walks, I tried bringing his tennis ball and one of his bones so if he met somebody I could shove it in his mouth, but he won't take them. He gets so excited that he loses focus on everything aside from the new face. I tried having a stranger put the ball in his mouth one time since he wouldn't take it from me and as soon as the guy reached out with the ball, JJ lunged for his hand and the guys hand with the ball were both in JJ's mouth. 

I'll try teaching him that "go get a toy" thing cause I think that would be great. I said in another post in this tread that lately JJ has been running to grab his tug toy or one of his bones when my mom walks in, as if he knows he's going to bite and is trying to stop himself by getting a toy himself. I of course praise him a lot of this cause he use to jump all over my mom when she walked in and would pull her skirts. Now he just goes and gets his toy instead and runs into the kitchen to her and is like "look what I got" and walks away. If I could teach him to do this all the time, that would be great!!

Boarding school is basically out of the question. It's too much money with little to no guarantee, and like you said, how do I know I can fully trust these people when I'm not there. In the end, they just want the money. Besides, if I ever found out that somebody laid a hand on my dog.....


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## debra1704 (Feb 22, 2012)

Shame you're not rehoming him, because I'd take him- he's a beauty!!!! I second the advice about asking "where's your toy?" or "where's your bone?" when he gets mouthy. Winter gets mouthy sometimes, and we've trained her that she needs to get something appropriate to bite. She is a power chewer, and is calmer and happier when she has an elk antler or soemthing she can chew on. I would also get rid of the throw rug.


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## Steadfast (Aug 22, 2012)

Sounds like an energetic young boy who is finding his own fun without a care in the world and no boundaries that he respects. If I were you I would wear him each day with a brisk walk and then come back home and when he burned off energy work with him on the foundational skills to start then working on behaviors like down, stay ect. Trying to work a dog with new behaviors when he has more energy then what he knows what to do with is a recipe for failure While he knows the foundational skills of sit ect.. that you mentioned it sounds like he will only apply them when he wants. Your goal is to build a reliable dog and if he is one of those young guys with alot of energy he needs something to burn that off that is physical before training behaviors.

Can't say that I have seem much long term success with sending a dog away to another trainer. While they may get him to submit to them with whatever type of training that you would never know they will not teach the dog to respond to you reliably for any type of long term results. Nothing against boarding type training but if I can't see how they are training I'm not a fan of others teaching my dogs.

Just my two cents


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

debra1704 said:


> Shame you're not rehoming him, because I'd take him- he's a beauty!!!!


haha. Thanks, and that's what really frustrates me the most. He's a good looking boy and whenever we take him out everybody can't help but take notice of him, but we can't stop to meet any of them cause of his behavior. People beep, yell out the windows of their cars, point and stare, whisper among each other as we walk by. He absolutely loves people and they're more than willing to give him all the attention he wants, but he doesn't know how to control himself to get that chance. When we took him to the dog park (which we haven't been doing anymore since JJ seems somewhat skittish now when it comes to dogs barking at him and noises behind him ever since he was attacked by a dog down the street a few months ago) he would pay more attention to the people than he would the dogs. There could be 20 dogs there running around and playing and you'd find JJ sitting with some stranger on a bench. My girlfriend is an administrator at a school for special needs kids and we would love to be able to bring him down there to meet all the children one day cause they would surely love that, as would he if he could just control himself. We wanna hit the nursing homes, the hospitals and anywhere else there's people who need the comfort of a dog cause I know JJ would love that. I also want to get him involved in DockDogs but I need him to be able to calm down around people cause I'm not trying to get kicked out of the club haha.

On that note, JJ seems to be a lot easier with kids. He hasn't once tried to jump on a child or nip them. He's very gentle. Same goes for smaller dogs, he just sniffs around them. Larger dogs he gets crazy around and jumps all over in the fashion he does with adults. This leads me to believe the size of the person or dog he's meeting plays a factor in the way he behaves and how excited he gets, however, I've been told that the size of people have nothing to do with the way a dog acts around them, so I dunno :doh:


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

From what you've described if JJs behavior and of all the training you've given him, I'd say you really have your hands full. He's clearly a very excitable dog with no real impulse control yet (except with your mom, which is so sweet....). You've gotten some really good input here. I'll just add a couple thoughts.

I think JJ needs to be _thoroughly tired out _almost to the point of exhaustion every day. A couple walks isn't enough. I'm talking two or three hours of activity so when he comes home he's wiped out. Many people describe their dogs after daycare that way--not sure if that an option for you budget. Perhaps you jog or have a friend who does. Most Golden people don't recommend jogging, but he could use the workout. Swimming would be good, too. Throwing a ball in the yard is a great outlet. He needs outlets to channel all his antsiness. It sounds like he needs a lot more than most GRs. His activity level sounds like that of a pointer or a herder almost.

I'd suggest you have periods of time in the evening, at regular times if possible, when someone plays training games with him--nose work, find the key, Nina Ottoson puzzles, whatever, but about an hour to tire him out _mentally_.

Have a period of time in the evening that is just quiet time. I've never taught a dog to "settle," but there are instructions on GRF on doing that. When we are in quiet mode at my house, I pat Tucker if he comes over but refuse to engage. I just keep putting him off or ignoring him, and he gets the idea. It sound like JJ won't do that yet, but with all the work you're doing, it will come.

With Tucker what has always worked best is ignoring him or stopping him from having what he wants. They are basically the same thing. If he's antsy and wants to play when I want him calm, I ignore him. When he's barking in the car out of excitement and wanting to get to the dog park, I stop the car and don't start again until he's silent (unless someone's behind me , LOL). when you described the interaction between JJ and your girlfriend on the couch, my reaction was that by talking to him at all she was giving him attention (what he wants) and that spurred his excitement. Just my reaction to the scenario. 

You obviously have done a lot and JJ is making progress, so be sure to acknowledge that! He's looks like a great big happy guy. When he gets all those marbles organized in his head, you'll have a terrific companion.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

When Rose gets crazy (she is only 11 1/2 weeks) in the evenings my daughter and I take the tennis ball and go in the hallway. One at each end and throw the tennis ball from one to another giving Rose a chance to catch it in between couple throws. As a treat she gets a treat puzzle - just a star spinner with two levels. We take some of her evening meal kibble and have it ready for when she has the famous zoomies.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I think JJ needs to be _thoroughly tired out _almost to the point of exhaustion every day. A couple walks isn't enough. I'm talking two or three hours of activity so when he comes home he's wiped out. Many people describe their dogs after daycare that way--not sure if that an option for you budget. Perhaps you jog or have a friend who does. Most Golden people don't recommend jogging, but he could use the workout. Swimming would be good, too. Throwing a ball in the yard is a great outlet. He needs outlets to channel all his antsiness. It sounds like he needs a lot more than most GRs. His activity level sounds like that of a pointer or a herder almost.


I mean no offense here, but dogs should not be at the point of complete exhaustion in order to be good family dogs. Calm training and calm handling makes a huge difference. You should have a high energy dog living with you who knows that when you are ignoring him, he should go and lie down and be quiet. And even those bouts of mouthing and jumping can be managed. As I said.

Daycare can cause more behavioral and health problems then it's worth. 

We have a herding dog and I have friends with shepherds and border collies and corgis... and one thing all of these dogs have in common is they do not have to be exhausted in order to keep them from jumping and biting. A lot of it is training - training the owners not to set them off or put them in positions where their instincts go into high gear, training the dogs to calm down when nothing is going on.


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## mooselips (Dec 4, 2011)

I sympathize with you, I own an energetic pup too, who is a real challenge.

Not sure if you've seen my JBG (jumping, biting, grabbing) posts.
She's 9 mos. now and we JUST got over THAT issue, and the only thing that stopped it was the pinch collar.

She still has the "Everybody loves me, so I have to look into their eyes" jumping phenomenon....but I don't have the collar on her consistently.

We had the personal trainer, (bad advice given with him) and have had 2 puppy classes so far, and will continue in the Fall when we return home.

The ONLY thing that has really helped, is firmness, and consistence...
....(I don't always follow through...bad me) and training sessions.

Bridget has really come a long way over the last few months, I'm glad I'm not a quitter...lol...... like you, my dog is for life.

What is Beamers schedule for the entire day?

Hugs to Beamer....he's a beauty!


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

JDK I didn't mean putting him in the bathroom as punishment. Time outs are fine and saves us. I've just had people tell me to smack her under the chin, grab her face, spray her with a bottle, etc. Most I wouldn't do anyway, but I've tried grabbing her face, closing her mouth and saying No Bite until I'm blue in the face. It just doesn't work with her. I won't say I haven't taped her a couple times lightly when she is snapping and has cought me but that hasn't worked. You seem like you are doing even more than we are and I'm hoping by the time she is a year or so old it will be better. We too are working on impulse control. I may have to try some of your control items. Good luck. People say it gets better, but I'm covered in bruises as I type this. She is actually worse with my husband, but I try to keep her from doing it to him so I get the brunt of it most of the time.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I think you've gotten some very good advice here.

I want to address the in-home boarding/training. I am an in-home boarder/trainer. We encourage the owners to come visit our home with their dog before they make the decision on whether to leave their dog with us for training. They get to see the layout, meet our dogs and hear what the game plan is before they make their decision. They are welcome to come visit, though we prefer that they wait a week or two just for their dog's sake, but if they want to come before that, that's fine with us.

During the three weeks (minimum) that the dog is with us, they learn structure, they attend obedience classes, they go on field trips with us and they are treated like one of the pack. If they aren't ready to go home after three weeks, they stay longer, until we are sure that they are going to succeed when they return home.

Then we take them home and spend an hour and a half going over everything with the owners. We have completed a "report card" with all the information written down about what they have learned and how to execute those things. We offer unlimited follow ups to work on any ongoing issues and will take the dog back for a week or two for a refresher if needed. We are accessible by email or phone for the life of the dog. All for no extra charge.

Many of us do this because we want to see the dogs and their people living happily together.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

JDK said:


> Thanks for the suggestions.
> 
> For the sake of conversation, I'd like to go over a few things with you.
> 
> ...


Thanks for including the trainer's instructions. I tried to include in the quote back here, but it didn't work.

Here's where you might get angry at me, though I hope not. It's really coming from a good place. But I will gently suggest that these methods are not working. You've come here for help, right? I think those methods are outdated, and not suitable for a Golden Retriever. You say your trainer is experienced and trains police dogs. Very different goals. Very different dogs. 

When my very bitey puppy bit, she also lost contact with me. But I simply would turn my back and cross my arms and not look at her. There is no need to lock your dog in a bathroom. Think about it from HIS point of view. There is fear involved in that. That's not a way to produce trust. 

And I just feel like the arm block is too aggressive. This is too much about control and being in charge of your dog. It's not a method I subscribe to. And I would suggest there are other methods out there. I do think you need a new trainer, and as I said, I would NOT disclose the history. Let the trainer evaluate and work with JJ as a clean slate. 

I do feel for you. I had a VERY energetic, over-the-top, bitey, bouncing puppy. Now, she _did_ get more exercise than JJ - 3 hours minimum a day - playing ball, or hiking, or playing with other dogs. We never just walked. If we went for a walk, it was a fast walk and there was ball-playing along the way at the park. And lots of training for her first 12 months. 

Things I failed at: I was never able to train away the jumping and the excessive greeting. She was just SO excited to meet people, she could not keep those paws on the ground. I did make her sit, and I stepped on the leash to keep her in a sit, and I put a ball in her mouth. But it wasn't until she was older that we could walk normally down the street without her going bananas when she met people. And she still to this day, at nearly 12 years old, starts to pull on the leash when we get close to the park. And I STILL to this day make her sit and calm down and stop pulling before we resume walking to the park. 

So I am not by any means suggesting my dog is perfect - but we did go through some of the same challenges as you are, and I'm simply suggesting there are other methods that might work better to change the behaviour.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

OutWest said:


> From what you've described if JJs behavior and of all the training you've given him, I'd say you really have your hands full. He's clearly a very excitable dog with no real impulse control yet (except with your mom, which is so sweet....). You've gotten some really good input here. I'll just add a couple thoughts.
> 
> I think JJ needs to be _thoroughly tired out _almost to the point of exhaustion every day. A couple walks isn't enough. I'm talking two or three hours of activity so when he comes home he's wiped out. Many people describe their dogs after daycare that way--not sure if that an option for you budget. Perhaps you jog or have a friend who does. Most Golden people don't recommend jogging, but he could use the workout. Swimming would be good, too. Throwing a ball in the yard is a great outlet. He needs outlets to channel all his antsiness. It sounds like he needs a lot more than most GRs. His activity level sounds like that of a pointer or a herder almost.
> 
> ...



That's the problem, JJ is thoroughly tired out and walked with and played with as much as possible, and the behavior still continues. The only way to give him more would be to quit my job. I've already gave up my second job (It was a work-at-home job that I did on the computer) when I got him so that I could spend more time with him rather than having to be on the computer for a few hours every night doing work, leaving me with like $30,000 less a year and putting off a whole lot of things such as buying a home, getting married and having a kid. Sometimes it appears that the more tired he is, the more misbehaved he becomes. Trainers have told us that he doesn't know how to "transition" to different things. He's like a kid that's over tired and starts getting cranky who doesn't know what to do with himself so he starts acting up. We've tried helping him with his by giving him bones and kongs after walks and when playtime is over, but after a few minutes he looses interest and resorts to the bad behavior instead. He goes for 2-3 walks a day, each one lasting an hour and equaling anywhere between 2-3 miles. We're tall people, me being 6'7, so naturally we walk fast since we have long legs, so it's not like we're just strolling around. JJ is forced to move his little legs and keep up. By the end of our walks he's huffing and pupping and collapses in the yard. We stay outside for 10 minutes or so before coming in and try and engage him in some ball play to get whatever last big of energy he may have in him out before going in the house.

There are regular times in the house where we train him, with play mixed in between sessions to keep things fun. We keep to a strict schedule and always have since we thought it would be the best way to teach JJ structure and get him on a daily routine. It's worked to an extent, but it has yet to stop his episodes of going crazy. Training his fun to him, he loves the rewards, which is great, but he gets so worked up from it that usually when training stops and the rate at which he receives treats slows down, he starts jumping and biting out of excitement. The trainer says that him not knowing how to transition on to something else when training or playtime is over.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Sweet Girl said:


> Thanks for including the trainer's instructions. I tried to include in the quote back here, but it didn't work.
> 
> Here's where you might get angry at me, though I hope not. It's really coming from a good place. But I will gently suggest that these methods are not working. You've come here for help, right? I think those methods are outdated, and not suitable for a Golden Retriever. You say your trainer is experienced and trains police dogs. Very different goals. Very different dogs.
> 
> ...


I don't get angry very easily. Life is too short to be mad all the time. So no worries 

We did the whole "turn your back and cross your arms" thing. Doesn't work. I timed JJ a few times to see how long it would go on and there were times when it was 3-5minutes and he was still jumping on me and biting me as my back was turned. We tried walking away and leaving the room, but he chases you down and nips as your ankles or bites your shirt and tugs it, causing you to stop walking away and stop in your tracks unless you want another ripped or stretched out shirt. This thread has quite a few posts from me explaining some of the things we've done to try and stop the behavior, as well as a few scenarios - http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...ues/116862-year-old-still-jumping-biting.html

Our current trainer tried these things as well. The first time he came, I naturally had JJ on a leash. When the trainer came in the house, he told me to let JJ go. When I did, JJ went nuts and was jumping all over the trainer and biting him arms, which at that point the trainer goes "Wow, he's got a pretty hard bite". The trainer tried ignoring him and it didn't work after several minutes. He tried distracting him with a new toy of his own and it lasted 2-3 minutes before JJ gave up on the toy and went back to the trainer. The trainer than took out another toy and this time JJ lost interest in it in less than a minute and started jumping and biting the trainer again. He tried walking away and leaving the room and had his shirt torn and ripped as he left. When he came back, JJ continued, so he left the room again. Once again, as he came back, JJ carried on. After about 20 minutes of all this and trying to calm JJ down, the trainer told him sternly, "Enough!", when JJ bit him hard and he yanked the leash and put him in the bathroom for a quick timeout. When he came out, the behavior continued and JJ wouldn't accept the trainers "time-in" and bit him instead of kissing him, so he put him back in the bathroom for another 30seconds. When he let him out this time, JJ kissed his hands instead of biting them and no longer jumped on him.

I plan on finding a new trainer, since as I said previously, I don't feel the two we've had are addressing my problems. For example, the last time the trainer was here he wanted to work on JJ's "sit/stay" and gave me a worksheet with different things to do such as "make dog sit/stay for 10 seconds", "make dog sit/stay for 20 seconds", "make dog sit/stay in front of you as you take two steps to the side", and etc etc. I found this pointless since it's stuff I've been doing every since I got JJ and stuff we were doing long before we hired a personal trainer. I can put him in a sit/stay and do various things such as leave the room, do push ups in front of him, jump over him, dance around, run in place, make funny noises and faces, vacuum and etc etc. It's almost as if they don't have an answer for him or don't know how to address JJ's behavior and are instead trying to teach me other things (the basics) that I've already been teaching JJ.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

JDK said:


> I don't know where to begin.
> 
> My 16-month-old Golden, JJ, is a monster, and I'm in no way exaggerating :no:
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry this is happening to you. It's hard to believe he's acting this way. It appears to be a case of a bad relationship. I can't really say what can be done other than what you have already tried. If he is getting properly exercised, and you are being a good leader, then he should not be this out of control. It kinda reminds me of my Lab mix Coal acting up when he was a puppy. He was jumping, mouthing, running all around and chewing everything in sight. He was a high energy dog, and I had lack of experience. Is this your first dog/Golden? He looks beautiful.


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## BriGuy (Aug 31, 2010)

JDK said:


> For example, the last time the trainer was here he wanted to work on JJ's "sit/stay" and gave me a worksheet with different things to do such as "make dog sit/stay for 10 seconds", "make dog sit/stay for 20 seconds", "make dog sit/stay in front of you as you take two steps to the side", and etc etc. I found this pointless since it's stuff I've been doing every since I got JJ and stuff we were doing long before we hired a personal trainer.


Maybe your trainer was trying to work on the Protocol for Relaxation exercises. Either way, your description make me think of it:

Protocol for relaxation

Boring, but maybe it will help you. There are mp3 files of it on the internet someplace.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

JDK said:


> I don't get angry very easily. Life is too short to be mad all the time. So no worries
> 
> We did the whole "turn your back and cross your arms" thing. Doesn't work. I timed JJ a few times to see how long it would go on and there were times when it was 3-5minutes and he was still jumping on me and biting me as my back was turned. We tried walking away and leaving the room, but he chases you down and nips as your ankles or bites your shirt and tugs it, causing you to stop walking away and stop in your tracks unless you want another ripped or stretched out shirt. This thread has quite a few posts from me explaining some of the things we've done to try and stop the behavior, as well as a few scenarios - http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...ues/116862-year-old-still-jumping-biting.html
> 
> ...


Wow. It really does sound out of the ordinary. I feel for you and it does sound like you've made a real effort.

Have you tried to find a behaviourist? Not a trainer. It does sound like there is something else going on. Given that you say he has a pretty solid sit/stay, etc. This is like a child acting up, having a tantrum - even almost like an autistic child unable to control his outbursts. 

Is he physically healthy? When was the last time he had blood work? Or a thyroid panel? I wonder if there is something else happening. I'm at a total loss.


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

"Wow. It really does sound out of the ordinary." 


Not so much. Many of us are struggling with this same thing to one degree or another. One of the few differences with Tayla is she is usually pretty good meeting new people. If we are on a walk she will just lay down and wait until we move on. She is a blessing in that respect. However, most everything else is right on target with JJ. When she gets really bad I just quietly put her in her crate. We have tried turning our backs and walking away also. Rarely did that work and usually we just got bit in the back or our shirts ripped. 

I would like to suggest something that you have not tried and maybe you might be able to find a vet in your area who also specializes in acupuncture. Our Tayla is what is considered a Fire Dog in Chinese medicine. She is quick to react. We just finished our 3rd acupuncture appointment with her and are on our second set of herbs. Thursday was her best visit yet. She did not mouth me once in the office. She actually laid down on the floor a couple times and was much calmer. Our vet said it will be a long road, but he is starting to see that what he is doing is causing a little doorway to open and she is able to stop for a moment and think. It won't stop the behavior, but might allow her to make some better decisions on her own.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

MercyMom said:


> I'm so sorry this is happening to you. It's hard to believe he's acting this way. It appears to be a case of a bad relationship. I can't really say what can be done other than what you have already tried. If he is getting properly exercised, and you are being a good leader, then he should not be this out of control.


I disagree! Just because JJ is overexcited and doesn't have great self control yet doesn't mean that they have a bad relationship. 

And obviously dogs need exercise or they will be difficult to manage, but getting them plenty of exercise doesn't mean that they will necessarily behave perfectly.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Sweet Girl said:


> Wow. It really does sound out of the ordinary. I feel for you and it does sound like you've made a real effort.
> 
> Have you tried to find a behaviourist? Not a trainer. It does sound like there is something else going on. Given that you say he has a pretty solid sit/stay, etc. This is like a child acting up, having a tantrum - even almost like an autistic child unable to control his outbursts.
> 
> Is he physically healthy? When was the last time he had blood work? Or a thyroid panel? I wonder if there is something else happening. I'm at a total loss.


I'm glad to see that you're now starting to understand where we stand here haha.

Both trainers were certified behaviorists as well as licensed trainers, and they were both kind of stumped. They've given us plenty to work on and told us things to do when he starts to act out, but what they don't know is how hard we try to do these things with little to no results. I really need to get a video camera and video tape what happens and what we're doing to try and stop it so people can see from themselves that standing there and ignoring him isn't as easy as it sounds. It's exactly like a tantrum. Like I said before, it tends to happen when he's worn out and tired. He'll walk around the living room laying down in several different places and whimpering from time-to-time, sort of like he doesn't know to do or how to transition himself to laying down or simply chewing on a bone to relax, so he acts out instead.

One of the trainers told us that when he starts acting out and jumping on my girlfriend while shes on the couch, to attach him to a lead that's wrapped around the leg of the hutch near the couch so we can adjust how close he can get by adjusting the slack of the lead. That sounded great and all, but the moment we tried it, JJ turned his attention to the lead and started chewing it. I told him to "leave it" over and over and over and over again, which he did every time I told him. After about the 20th time of telling him to leave it, I sprayed it with Bitter Apple. As soon as I did that, he changed his attention to me and started jumping and biting me, as if he was saying "fine, if I can't chew the leash and can't jump on mom, you leave me know choice but to go after you". I calm him down by making kisses noises and putting my hands out in front of me to accept a kiss from him, and stroking him for a few minutes, but as soon as I walk away, he's back to chewing the leash. It only took him about 2 minutes to tear it apart, so that idea didn't last long.

I believe hes physically healthy. He pants like a beast after walking for 10 minutes, but I've read that heavy panting is pretty common for Goldens as long as they are healthy otherwise. The last time he had blood work was when he got neutered around 13 months of age and the blood work all looked ok. I don't think he's ever had his thyroid checked.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

MercyMom said:


> I'm so sorry this is happening to you. It's hard to believe he's acting this way. It appears to be a case of a bad relationship. I can't really say what can be done other than what you have already tried. If he is getting properly exercised, and you are being a good leader, then he should not be this out of control. It kinda reminds me of my Lab mix Coal acting up when he was a puppy. He was jumping, mouthing, running all around and chewing everything in sight. He was a high energy dog, and I had lack of experience. Is this your first dog/Golden? He looks beautiful.


There's no bad relationship between us and the dog. He loves us just as much as we love him. What he does isn't out of anger or dislike. He's just gets overly excited and doesn't know how to maintain his level of energy and focus. You should see the tail go when one of us comes home. When he hears the alarm on my girlfriends car when she gets home from work, he's right in the window watching and waiting for her, with his tail flapping a mile a minute. JJ is my first Golden but not my first dog. I grew up with dogs and they have been a major part of my life since the age of 4-5. My last dog was a Chow named Beau that unbelievably lived to be 21. I spent just about every day of my life with that dog until he passed. We had a bond like no other.


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## monarchs_joy (Aug 13, 2011)

I just sent you a PM... I know exactly what you're talking about. Been there, done that, have the ripped t-shirt (several of them). From what you're describing, he sounds exactly like my bridge girl. It's like trying to harness a tornado in a Dixie cup. 

The one thing I never tried that I wish I would have is a full on, board certified veterinary animal behaviorist. A couple of our trainers were "certified behaviorists," but that's not the same thing. 

I found this one in the NYC area that has a very good description of veterinary behaviorists vs. trainers: 

FAQ - Veterinary Behavior Consultations of NYC 

The board certified behaviorists can be kind of pricey, but it may be the solution and is at least something to consider.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Does it sound strange to anybody that JJ's bad behavior with lunging at my girlfriend on the couch and biting her tends to happen more when we're both in the room?

When I leave for work in the morning at 7:30, my girlfriend is home with JJ till 10am. She never has a problem with him at this point. I get home at 4pm and I'm with JJ myself until my mom gets home at 5:30 and he's perfectly fine, like an angel almost. He starts to get a little excited at that point, but doesn't act out of control. My girlfriend gets home at around 6:30 pm and he starts to slowly let loose, still not acting but but getting more and more excited with each passing minute. Every other night, my girlfriend will go downstairs in our room to let our ferrets out to run around (usually around 9pm), leaving me upstairs with JJ. He's fine at this point when it's just he and I and doesn't act up. The nights when my girlfriend doesn't let our ferrets out and she's upstairs in the living room with me, JJ starts getting in his moods and misbehaving. If the roles are reversed and I go down to let the ferrets out and my girlfriend stays upstairs with JJ, he'll be fine and won't go after her. It's usually only when we're all together. Does that make sense to anybody and seem a little odd?


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

monarchs_joy said:


> I just sent you a PM... I know exactly what you're talking about. Been there, done that, have the ripped t-shirt (several of them). From what you're describing, he sounds exactly like my bridge girl. It's like trying to harness a tornado in a Dixie cup.
> 
> The one thing I never tried that I wish I would have is a full on, board certified veterinary animal behaviorist. A couple of our trainers were "certified behaviorists," but that's not the same thing.
> 
> ...


I'll check your message. Never knew there was a difference between a board certified behaviorist and just a regular certified behaviorist. Good to know, thanks.


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## sameli102 (Aug 23, 2009)

I would not consider "panting like a beast" normal for a golden. Sure they may pant very heavy from heat if they have been running around, but just being a warm day any normal golden will just pant gently like any other dog.

Heavy panting can mean other things too, in JJ's case I would think it is more about nerves. Just like when a dog with a thunderstorm fear may be lying on the floor sound asleep and a burst of thunder has them upright and panting hard from nerves.

I have one that pants horribly and I know it is not from heat, it is from nerves because he can go from a nervous hard pant to finally settling down and and going to sleep breathing very gently. Panting can even indicate pain but nerves fits him better. Thyroid problems can cause hyperness which would cause panting too. I'd have his thyroid checked to rule it out.


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## mooselips (Dec 4, 2011)

This morning after Bridget's walk, I stopped to have coffee with friends down the island.
I had Bridget back on her leash by then and told her to sit.
She proceeded to start chewing her leash, because she wanted OFF to play with the other couples male Husky, (who is not a bit interested in her, and thinks she's a big Ado Annie) anyway, THAT is a temper trantrum.

And I've seen her sulk when she doesn't get her way too....

AND these dogs are smart.
And I once had a fortune cookie that said "You're not as smart as you look" so go figure. Maybe the pups outsmart us all....lol

All I know is Bridget is smart, and a challenge...
None of that docile, quiet, behavior from her.....


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Just a quick suggestion. Have you taught him the hold command- give him a toy and tell him to hold it As soon as he lets go put it in his mouth and tell him hold. Start with just a few seconds and increase it Eventually you should get him to the point where you say hold and give him a toy rather then him grab you. It also sounds to me as if he is well behaved on a one to one basis but it all goes wrong when you are both together? Annef


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

JDK said:


> That's the problem, JJ is thoroughly tired out and walked with and played with as much as possible, and the behavior still continues. The only way to give him more would be to quit my job. I've already gave up my second job (It was a work-at-home job that I did on the computer) when I got him so that I could spend more time with him rather than having to be on the computer for a few hours every night doing work, leaving me with like $30,000 less a year and putting off a whole lot of things such as buying a home, getting married and having a kid. Sometimes it appears that the more tired he is, the more misbehaved he becomes. Trainers have told us that he doesn't know how to "transition" to different things. He's like a kid that's over tired and starts getting cranky who doesn't know what to do with himself so he starts acting up. We've tried helping him with his by giving him bones and kongs after walks and when playtime is over, but after a few minutes he looses interest and resorts to the bad behavior instead. He goes for 2-3 walks a day, each one lasting an hour and equaling anywhere between 2-3 miles. We're tall people, me being 6'7, so naturally we walk fast since we have long legs, so it's not like we're just strolling around. JJ is forced to move his little legs and keep up. By the end of our walks he's huffing and pupping and collapses in the yard. We stay outside for 10 minutes or so before coming in and try and engage him in some ball play to get whatever last big of energy he may have in him out before going in the house.
> 
> There are regular times in the house where we train him, with play mixed in between sessions to keep things fun. We keep to a strict schedule and always have since we thought it would be the best way to teach JJ structure and get him on a daily routine. It's worked to an extent, but it has yet to stop his episodes of going crazy. Training his fun to him, he loves the rewards, which is great, but he gets so worked up from it that usually when training stops and the rate at which he receives treats slows down, he starts jumping and biting out of excitement. The trainer says that him not knowing how to transition on to something else when training or playtime is over.


I almost hate to say this, but have you spoken to your vet about medications for him? He sounds like a child with ADHD. I suspect that with age, he'll calm down naturally, but perhaps you need to medicate him for a while to make your house livable.... ? I wonder if there's something that he could get a small dose of at the end of the day when he seems most likely to go bananas.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

sameli102 said:


> I would not consider "panting like a beast" normal for a golden. Sure they may pant very heavy from heat if they have been running around, but just being a warm day any normal golden will just pant gently like any other dog.
> 
> Heavy panting can mean other things too, in JJ's case I would think it is more about nerves. Just like when a dog with a thunderstorm fear may be lying on the floor sound asleep and a burst of thunder has them upright and panting hard from nerves.
> 
> I have one that pants horribly and I know it is not from heat, it is from nerves because he can go from a nervous hard pant to finally settling down and and going to sleep breathing very gently. Panting can even indicate pain but nerves fits him better. Thyroid problems can cause hyperness which would cause panting too. I'd have his thyroid checked to rule it out.


I'll talk to the vet about having his thyroid checked. He doesn't "pant like a beast" when he's just laying around. It's only during and after our walks, or when he gets really excited and wears himself out (i.e. new people coming over), so we always took it as being natural since he's tired out at this point, or hot and is trying to cool himself down. He's always panted a lot and we read that heavy panting is normal for Goldens, especially in the heat after long walks or extended play. He's not a warm weather dog, like most Golden's I'm sure. If it's 75 or hotter he doesn't even want to be outside. It's about 82 now and I just had him in the yard, and after doing his business, he immediately went for shade under a bush. We'll look into the thyroid thing though, thanks. How is a thyroid test performed? Will he have to be knocked out or anything?


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

annef said:


> Just a quick suggestion. Have you taught him the hold command- give him a toy and tell him to hold it As soon as he lets go put it in his mouth and tell him hold. Start with just a few seconds and increase it Eventually you should get him to the point where you say hold and give him a toy rather then him grab you. It also sounds to me as if he is well behaved on a one to one basis but it all goes wrong when you are both together? Annef


I can try teaching a "hold" command.

So what would I do, put a toy in his mouth, say "hold", wait a few seconds and than reward with a treat, and repeat?

And yes, it seems like he's more well behaved one-on-one but when my girlfriend and I are together he gets more antsy.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

OutWest said:


> I almost hate to say this, but have you spoken to your vet about medications for him? He sounds like a child with ADHD. I suspect that with age, he'll calm down naturally, but perhaps you need to medicate him for a while to make your house livable.... ? I wonder if there's something that he could get a small dose of at the end of the day when he seems most likely to go bananas.


We've joked a few times in the past that he needs prozac, but now we're really starting to believe it.

I would hate to medicate my dog though and would rather him just be able to learn right from wrong.


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## sameli102 (Aug 23, 2009)

It's just a blood test. I have one that pants terribly and it drives me crazy, I believe it is an anxiety with him. He gets neutered next week and while there I am going to request a thyroid panel just to rule it out.
In humans anyway an under active thyroid can make you very tired and gain weight, over active makes you very hyper and lose weight.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

JDK said:


> No, I have read the book. Might have to look into it.
> 
> Our trainer now has us working on impulse control and teaching JJ to maintain eye contact. He's been doing great, but it hasn't helped that sudden moments where he flips our, nor has it helped him to stop going after the throw rug or other things. He knows "leave it" real well, he just doesn't understand that I mean "leave it for good and don't return to it".
> 
> Our trainer has us working on teaching JJ boundaries.* We start by sitting on the floor with a tug toy. *We play for a couple minutes and than I take it from him either by telling him to "give it" or making a kiss noise, causing him to release it. I than reward him and put the toy in my lap. If he tries to get the toy, I give him a forearm and tell him firmly, "OFF". If need be, I continue doing that until he finally looks away from the toy or sits and looks me in the eye, than I reward him again and play continues. We go through this routine several times. Once he had that down, next was teaching him that he only goes up on your lap when you say so and not whenever he wants. To do this, the trainer told us to take the same position on the floor and to snap our fingers, say "Up" and grab him and motion him onto our laps. After a few minutes, tell him off and push/move him off you and reward him for not trying to jump back up. If he tries to jump up, its a stiff forearm and a stern "Off" until he sits. He does all of this well and picked it up in a matter of a day. But it has in no way helped with his outbursts. It's helped a lot with playing though cause now he won't try and rip the toy out of your hand or lap like he use to. He'll now sit infront of you, look you in the eyes and wait.


I wouldn't play tug with a hyper dog. You should video what you are talking about and post. Sometimes ignoring feels like hours when in reality it is only a few minutes.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I wouldn't play tug with a hyper dog. You should video what you are talking about and post. Sometimes ignoring feels like hours when in reality it is only a few minutes.


I had thought that myself, but it's basically the only way to play with him and I feel playing tug with him gets some of his aggression out. Some may argue that it's making him more aggressive, but he got in these moods long before we ever played tug. It's hard to play fetch in the house and it's too hot to play outside. Even when we do get a game of fetch going inside, he'll only fetch 2-3 times before stopping half-way, plopping himself on the floor and start gnawing on the ball/toy. He can't be left to play alone with a soft toy cause he'll destroy it in a matter of minutes. We've been through every toy in every pet store. It's come to the point where we thought about developing our own dog toy line of tough toys and using JJ as a test puppy to see how easily they can be destroyed, if they last, they get "JJ's approval" and are put into production. If I stop playing tug with him, playtime will basically stop altogether. We can't play hide-and-seek cause he starts getting too excited and jumping and nipping. We do some nose work with treats but can only do that for so long unless I want to make him fat and unhealthy. We try to play catch but after catching 3-4 balls, he grabs the next one and just lays down and chews on it and won't go after any other ones that I throw towards him. I can't just not play with the dog, I feel that would only make things worse.

I don't happen to own a good video camera that records well inside. Outside in the sun, they're great, but in my house with regular lighting, not so great and really dark. I'm trying to see if I can borrow a video camera from a friend or rent one online for a couple days and just leave it setup on a tripod to catch the action since it's unpredictable.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

You have been given some could advice re: teaching hold and not playing tug. Tug is fine if the dog's temperament is mellow, but if you already have a dog that want to comes after you, it isn't... My dog trainer friend would tell you to teach self control. She does this by perfecting the dog's stays. Her philosophy is that if you cannot relliably get your dog to stay, then you can't reliably teach it anything else. She also uses a tether in training...so if the dog does something she doesn't like, she says something like "yuck" or "too bad" and tethers the dog....


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

OutWest said:


> I almost hate to say this, but have you spoken to your vet about medications for him? He sounds like a child with ADHD. I suspect that with age, he'll calm down naturally, but perhaps you need to medicate him for a while to make your house livable.... ? I wonder if there's something that he could get a small dose of at the end of the day when he seems most likely to go bananas.


Thank you - that was my first reaction after reading about JJ.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> You have been given some could advice re: teaching hold and not playing tug. Tug is fine if the dog's temperament is mellow, but if you already have a dog that want to comes after you, it isn't... My dog trainer friend would tell you to teach self control. She does this by perfecting the dog's stays. Her philosophy is that if you cannot relliably get your dog to stay, then you can't reliably teach it anything else. She also uses a tether in training...so if the dog does something she doesn't like, she says something like "yuck" or "too bad" and tethers the dog....


See, our trainer, or rather ex-trainer at this point, believes that playing tug and mixing it up with a boundary lesson is what JJ needs and part of teaching him self control. JJ doesn't like to fetch or just hang around with a toy. He likes to play rough. Some may argue that no dog should play rough, but I personally don't believe that. I think it's okay for a dog to play rough as long as he knows there's limits. JJ doesn't quite understand there's limits and our trainer is training to teach him that with the whole tug and boundary lesson.

You know the deal though, every trainer has there own routine that they swear by. Since we hired this guy to help us, we figured it was wise to follow the rules he laid down and carry out his exercises, otherwise what was the point of hiring him and paying him if we were just going to do what we wanted. The tug/boundary lesson has helped in some ways. For example, JJ will no longer try and grab a toy out of my hands or go after it if I put it in my lap. Whereas he use to leap into my lap and try endlessly to get the toy and start going after me if I didn't give it to him, I can now take it from him and he'll instead sit in front of me and stare me in the eyes and wait until I'm ready to play again. I'm grateful for that. Isn't that self control?

On that note, we're looking for a new trainer, so we'll see what they think and what they're routine is.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Here's a video I found that's not too dark and actually watchable. It's not of JJ's bad behavior but rather his sit/stay when waiting for food. As you'll see, he sits automatically, so I tell him to "stay" and put his bowl down. As he looks me in the eyes, I begin throwing random words out before releasing him. I do this to strengthen his release command and work on his patience and self control. I want to ensure he knows the meaning of "ok" and won't release himself when I say any random word. I hold him in a stay for anywhere between 1-2 minutes before releasing him and allowing him to eat.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

vcm5 said:


> I disagree! Just because JJ is overexcited and doesn't have great self control yet doesn't mean that they have a bad relationship.
> 
> And obviously dogs need exercise or they will be difficult to manage, but getting them plenty of exercise doesn't mean that they will necessarily behave perfectly.


Oh man! :doh: I guess I should not have opened my mouth.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My dogs are fine with minimal exercise. What makes them most tired is working on their brains. If you have a dog who you say plays rough why play tug. I have raised nine goldens with whom I could play tug, but never would consider it if they were mouthy. Your dog needs more training that suits him...l


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

I think JJ is just as frustrated as you are because his education is 'incomplete'. You have taught him what sit means, but you haven't taught him that sit means 'sit', whenever and where ever you ask for it and no matter who is present or who says it. If he is sitting, he can not jump on you, if he has a rock solid 'down' he cant jump or bite. Which I suspect is the reason behind your trainers suggested going back to basics. A dog's reliability in responding to commands comes in four steps: Aquistion - teaching how to do the behavior. Fluency - the dog responds correctly when you ask for the behavior-every time. Generalization- the dog is taught to do the behavior anywhere and everywhere you ask for it, regardless of what else is going on. Maintenance - periodic 'refresher' sessions with rewards, to 'remind' the dog of what is expected for life. You can't 'skip' any of these steps.
A dog that has been taught a good understanding of what is expected of him (and gets rewarded for it) is less likely to choose his own (often unwanted) behaviors and will be more 'settled' overall. Has JJ ever started 'flipping out' when you are giving him his dinner? I would wager not, or at least not once he learned what you wanted and got a huge reward for it. Dinner!! Good job JJ!!
JJ's 'flipping out' is mostly directed at your girlfriend, and usually only when you are there. How much interaction does she have with him when you are home? Does she go with you when you take JJ for walks? Feed him? Is she present when you do training with JJ, or does she work with training him herself with you present? The reason I ask is that it almost seems like JJ sees your girlfriend as 'competition' (so to speak) for your attention, or 'equal' to him, not 'equal' to you, so he 'pushes' her around when you are there. He behaves appropriately when you are not there, because he has one on one attention with her. You said that he can be laying calmly then all of a sudden launch himself at your girlfriend biting her, which gets your attention, then you (I assume) put him in a 'time out', once done, he comes out and gets 'time in' attention from you. The cycle repeats, when he is feeling 'rejected' or 'ignored' by his favorite person. Try this: place a dog bed or mat beside the couch, when you sit on the couch with your girlfriend, direct JJ to the bed and have him lay down, reward him frequently, with praise, and high value food rewards for staying on the bed. Have your girlfriend do it as well. Start with short durations,(1 minute,) release him, and encourage him off the mat, pet/play with him for a bit, then repeat, gradually build the time he spends on the bed, and continue rewarding.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Teaching the hold command is really useful with a mouthy dog It is the way I tell all my puppy buyers to avoid the biting as puppies. As soon as they bite put a toy in their mouth and tell them hold. If they won't hold gently hold the dog under the chin to ensure they don't ever drop it, praise them as soon as they hold. I too, would not be playing tug or really playing at all, all play would be with retrieves, a reward for good behaviour one retrieve, praise then reward, always speak quietly so the dog does not get too excited, praise is one word and one stroke. Personally I would be doing a lot of outdoor training. He sounds as if he is a very excitable dog who has never really learnt the basics properly. Annef


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

annef said:


> Teaching the hold command is really useful with a mouthy dog It is the way I tell all my puppy buyers to avoid the biting as puppies. As soon as they bite put a toy in their mouth and tell them hold.


This is good advice. The only time Molly gets mouthy is when she is super excited when I get home. She automatically picks up a toy (usually her Kong) while greeting me to relieve that "desire" to mouth on something. She'll just hold her Kong in her mouth while loving on me.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Vhuynh2 said:


> This is good advice. The only time Molly gets mouthy is when she is super excited when I get home. She automatically picks up a toy (usually her Kong) while greeting me to relieve that "desire" to mouth on something. She'll just hold her Kong in her mouth while loving on me.


I thought that, too. Liza is over the moon happy when I come in the morning, and will literally bounce around the room, trying to bite anything and anyone. The anyone usually being me. Since I started to put a toy in front of her crate door, she will pick that up. Still bouncing around, but more focused and willing to do what I say (like go outside...!).


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> My dogs are fine with minimal exercise. What makes them most tired is working on their brains. If you have a dog who you say plays rough why play tug. I have raised nine goldens with whom I could play tug, but never would consider it if they were mouthy. Your dog needs more training that suits him...l


If we no longer play tug with JJ, what are some other ways we can play with him inbetween training sessions, considering I already mentioned that games like fetch and hide-and-seek are not playtime activities of his choice and things he gets rather bored with?


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Charliethree said:


> I think JJ is just as frustrated as you are because his education is 'incomplete'. You have taught him what sit means, but you haven't taught him that sit means 'sit', whenever and where ever you ask for it and no matter who is present or who says it. If he is sitting, he can not jump on you, if he has a rock solid 'down' he cant jump or bite. Which I suspect is the reason behind your trainers suggested going back to basics. A dog's reliability in responding to commands comes in four steps: Aquistion - teaching how to do the behavior. Fluency - the dog responds correctly when you ask for the behavior-every time. Generalization- the dog is taught to do the behavior anywhere and everywhere you ask for it, regardless of what else is going on. Maintenance - periodic 'refresher' sessions with rewards, to 'remind' the dog of what is expected for life. You can't 'skip' any of these steps.
> A dog that has been taught a good understanding of what is expected of him (and gets rewarded for it) is less likely to choose his own (often unwanted) behaviors and will be more 'settled' overall. Has JJ ever started 'flipping out' when you are giving him his dinner? I would wager not, or at least not once he learned what you wanted and got a huge reward for it. Dinner!! Good job JJ!!
> JJ's 'flipping out' is mostly directed at your girlfriend, and usually only when you are there. How much interaction does she have with him when you are home? Does she go with you when you take JJ for walks? Feed him? Is she present when you do training with JJ, or does she work with training him herself with you present? The reason I ask is that it almost seems like JJ sees your girlfriend as 'competition' (so to speak) for your attention, or 'equal' to him, not 'equal' to you, so he 'pushes' her around when you are there. He behaves appropriately when you are not there, because he has one on one attention with her. You said that he can be laying calmly then all of a sudden launch himself at your girlfriend biting her, which gets your attention, then you (I assume) put him in a 'time out', once done, he comes out and gets 'time in' attention from you. The cycle repeats, when he is feeling 'rejected' or 'ignored' by his favorite person. Try this: place a dog bed or mat beside the couch, when you sit on the couch with your girlfriend, direct JJ to the bed and have him lay down, reward him frequently, with praise, and high value food rewards for staying on the bed. Have your girlfriend do it as well. Start with short durations,(1 minute,) release him, and encourage him off the mat, pet/play with him for a bit, then repeat, gradually build the time he spends on the bed, and continue rewarding.


I'm gonna get to this later, just wanted to quote it now to remind myself. Gotta run to work :wavey:


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

I play tug with Tayla and she is extremely mouthy and very much like your guy. I've been told by my trainer who is a behavior specialist that tug is a great game so long as there are rules. She must sit before initiating play. She gets to win sometimes and I get to win sometimes. Several times during play she must sit and when she does drop the toy. We sometimes also do down and then she must be calm for a few seconds and then I toss her tug. Whenever she does not comply with sit or down we stop the game. Tugging is her reward for being good. If your dog is not agressive, and I don't think your guy is any more agressive than my Tayla, tug is fine. Patricia McConnell has a good book on playing with your dog.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

JDK said:


> If we no longer play tug with JJ, what are some other ways we can play with him inbetween training sessions, considering I already mentioned that games like fetch and hide-and-seek are not playtime activities of his choice and things he gets rather bored with?


Long walks, hikes, play dates with other dogs. Fill his kong up with tasty morsals when you want to relax. Antler chews. Nose games, find the tasty treats. Training, training , training. Training is playing to them.

You have an excitable dog and I think tug and rough housing is just going to make him more excitable. But if you do want to play with him this way it needs to be outside. He needs to learn self control while indoors. JMHO.
Dogs only get bored when left alone and nobody pays attention to them.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Susan Garrett has a blog that she has talked about using the tug game. She starts out teaching good impulse control. The dog must out the tug toy on cue. She suggests that using the tug game can help dogs that are easily/highly aroused. 
Here are the 3 links.
The Duration of The Tug Sessions | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog 

The tugging itself would be anywhere from 3-10 seconds, maybe less. I let it go on for as long as it takes to get sustained, sincere, fun, tugging— no re-gripping, no looking else where. When I get that, I end it. BUT the moment I end the game of tug I immediately engage my dog in the next phase by asking him to do something else, like a hand touch which starts another game of tug


Tugging With the Dog | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog 

Improve Your Dog Training By Playing Like a Dog! | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog


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## Nomes (Nov 7, 2011)

JDK said:


> If we no longer play tug with JJ, what are some other ways we can play with him inbetween training sessions, considering I already mentioned that games like fetch and hide-and-seek are not playtime activities of his choice and things he gets rather bored with?


is he motivated by food? Casey won't play with me unless i put food in the picture...for example, when he brings the ball back, he gets a piece of kibble. (It's also helpful for getting the ball out of his mouth!  We play hide and seek, but he has to hide while i hide _food_ for him to find...apparently i'm not exciting enough for his tastes! 
Casey is extremely smart, so i started playing the cup game with him...the one where you put a pea under a cup and rotate it around with a bunch of other ones...
only we do it with a piece of food and just 2 cups. It's also a good brain exercise for you believe it or not! somedays Casey gets stuck in a rut of always picking the left cup, and i have to think up a creative way to get him to guess the right cup so he'll get his reward.

There are also doggy brain games out there...
Nina Ottosson - Pet activity toys & treat puzzle games
i love hers, but you have to convert pounds to english dollars....:doh:


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Charliethree said:


> I think JJ is just as frustrated as you are because his education is 'incomplete'. You have taught him what sit means, but you haven't taught him that sit means 'sit', whenever and where ever you ask for it and no matter who is present or who says it. If he is sitting, he can not jump on you, if he has a rock solid 'down' he cant jump or bite. Which I suspect is the reason behind your trainers suggested going back to basics. A dog's reliability in responding to commands comes in four steps: Aquistion - teaching how to do the behavior. Fluency - the dog responds correctly when you ask for the behavior-every time. Generalization- the dog is taught to do the behavior anywhere and everywhere you ask for it, regardless of what else is going on. Maintenance - periodic 'refresher' sessions with rewards, to 'remind' the dog of what is expected for life. You can't 'skip' any of these steps.
> 
> A dog that has been taught a good understanding of what is expected of him (and gets rewarded for it) is less likely to choose his own (often unwanted) behaviors and will be more 'settled' overall. Has JJ ever started 'flipping out' when you are giving him his dinner? I would wager not, or at least not once he learned what you wanted and got a huge reward for it. Dinner!! Good job JJ!!
> 
> JJ's 'flipping out' is mostly directed at your girlfriend, and usually only when you are there. How much interaction does she have with him when you are home? Does she go with you when you take JJ for walks? Feed him? Is she present when you do training with JJ, or does she work with training him herself with you present? The reason I ask is that it almost seems like JJ sees your girlfriend as 'competition' (so to speak) for your attention, or 'equal' to him, not 'equal' to you, so he 'pushes' her around when you are there. He behaves appropriately when you are not there, because he has one on one attention with her. You said that he can be laying calmly then all of a sudden launch himself at your girlfriend biting her, which gets your attention, then you (I assume) put him in a 'time out', once done, he comes out and gets 'time in' attention from you. The cycle repeats, when he is feeling 'rejected' or 'ignored' by his favorite person. Try this: place a dog bed or mat beside the couch, when you sit on the couch with your girlfriend, direct JJ to the bed and have him lay down, reward him frequently, with praise, and high value food rewards for staying on the bed. Have your girlfriend do it as well. Start with short durations,(1 minute,) release him, and encourage him off the mat, pet/play with him for a bit, then repeat, gradually build the time he spends on the bed, and continue rewarding.


Getting back to this now that I'm home.

We've been working on the basics with JJ for the past 14-months, going over them every single day. So I thought paying my trainer $160 for the day to go over a "sit/stay" command was pointless and a waste of money since I've been doing that long before he ever showed up. A day doesn't go by where there aren't training sessions throughout the day with JJ. 

No, JJ doesn't flip out when waiting for his meals, and you're right, that's cause he learned what he needs to do if he wants to get them - remain calm. That's not to say though that we haven't tried to train JJ to stop jumping on people. It's not like we let him jump on people and let it go. We stop him the best we can from being able to do so and make an attempt to reward him when he sits or adverts his attention elsewhere, however, he won't take the reward (or the praise) cause his attention is completely focused on the "new face" and after a split second of sitting, he's up off his feet again.

As I've said earlier, one of the problems we're facing when trying to teach him how to meet new people is that we've run out of people to practice on. Friends and family are scared to come over and neighbors don't want to really help anymore since they've either been nipped and bruised a few times or have had their clothes ripped.

My girlfriend interacts with JJ just as much as I do. She feeds him as often as I do too. Sometimes her and I walk together with JJ, sometimes JJ and I just walk together, and sometimes JJ and her walk together. It varies depending on the time of day and our schedules. Same goes with training. Depending on the time of day, sometimes we train him together, taking turns. Sometimes I train him myself (i.e. before she gets home from work) and sometimes she trains him herself (i.e. after I leave for work in the morning). She's been to all the training classes with me too and have been involved with JJ just as much as I have since we got him. I personally feel that JJ looks at her as a "playmate" rather than his "master/handler". He gets more excited to she her than me. If we come up together in the morning and she goes into the kitchen and I go into the living room to let him out of his crate, he'll run right past me and go straight to his "mom". It's not like JJ jumps and bites my girlfriend every time he sees her sitting on the couch. 9 times out of 10 he'll just walk over and sit on the floor in front of her like a good dog. Usually when he goes after her, he's not getting attention from me and I'm not giving attention to her. Usually I'm not even in the same room, so I don't know if he sees her as competition for attention. His jumping and biting my girlfriend isn't something you can predict. It appears to be completely random. The other night, for example, JJ and her were laying on the couch watching TV as I was in the other room working on the computer. He was perfectly fine chewing his bone for about an hour. Then, all of sudden, he drops the bone and starts biting her hands instead, and rolls over on his back and starts hitting her with his paws. As soon as she stands up, he jumps all over her and starts biting her shirt. I can't see him doing that out of competition for attention since my girlfriend was the one giving him attention (and plenty of it) and I was nowhere in sight, although I was just in the next room, which he may or may not have known at the time. There have been times though that it's happened when I'm sitting across from my girlfriend on another couch, as well as times when I'm not even home. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, I'm not a behaviorist, I'm just going based on what I see from day-to-day and don't feel with my gut that it has anything to do with competing for attention. When this behavior happens, I used to jump in and divert him, causing him to turn his bad behavior towards me, but now I let me girlfriend handle it herself cause she knows the drill (if he bites hard, he gets a time-out followed by a time-in). She has given more time-outs and time-ins than I have, so him biting her and jumping on her doesn't get my attention.

We tried the whole "getting him to lay on a bed/mat" thing since it was something taught to use in obedience class, but JJ's eaten three beds already and I'm not about to spend money on a fourth one to have the same thing happen. As soon as you take your eyes off him or leave the room, he goes right for the bed and starts trying to tear it apart, which he can do in a matter of 1-2 minutes. Sure, he'll "leave it" if you tell him too, but he'll go right back at it when you turn your head. By the time I walk into the kitchen to get a drink and come back, JJ will have already put a hole in the bed and will be in the process of trying to pull the stuffing out (true story, I've seen it with my own two eyes and have pics to prove it)


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Long walks, hikes, play dates with other dogs. Fill his kong up with tasty morsals when you want to relax. Antler chews. Nose games, find the tasty treats. Training, training , training. Training is playing to them.
> 
> You have an excitable dog and I think tug and rough housing is just going to make him more excitable. But if you do want to play with him this way it needs to be outside. He needs to learn self control while indoors. JMHO.
> Dogs only get bored when left alone and nobody pays attention to them.


We take long walks 2-3 times a day, go on hikes, have play dates, give him kongs, give him antlers (elk and moose, he has about 5 of them now with more coming this weekend), play nose games where I hide treats, and, of course, train. The things you mention we've been doing and do regularly, but it hasn't helped JJ's bad behavior. I can only give him so many kongs and treats before making him fat. He likes to play, and the things you and I mentioned aren't "playing" to him. He could be tired as hell from a walk, barely able to stand on his own two feet, and he'll still grab one of his toys and want you to play with him, even if it's only for a minute or two before he collapses. 

JJ isn't left alone (aside from when I'm at work) cause he can't be trusted alone, nor is he ever ignored and not getting attention from me or my girlfriend. All eyes are on JJ from the moment he's out of his crate to the moment he's back in it.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

JDK said:


> We take long walks 2-3 times a day, go on hikes, have play dates, give him kongs, give him antlers (elk and moose, he has about 5 of them now with more coming this weekend), play nose games where I hide treats, and, of course, train. The things you mention we've been doing and do regularly, but it hasn't helped JJ's bad behavior. I can only give him so many kongs and treats before making him fat. He likes to play, and the things you and I mentioned aren't "playing" to him. He could be tired as hell from a walk, barely able to stand on his own two feet, and he'll still grab one of his toys and want you to play with him, even if it's only for a minute or two before he collapses.
> 
> JJ isn't left alone (aside from when I'm at work) cause he can't be trusted alone, nor is he ever ignored and not getting attention from me or my girlfriend. All eyes are on JJ from the moment he's out of his crate to the moment he's back in it.


Ok then. As hard as this might sound he needs much more consistant training. He needs to learn place and you don't need a mat or bed for that. Just a spot where you want him to lay where you can keep an eye on him. We used the fireplace hearth. He just sounds confused to me and needs constant re direction not meds. I would not play tug with him anymore. And all toys get put away when it is time to place. He needs to know the difference between chill time and play time. Right now all he knows is play time .


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

If he can't stay on a mat without chewing it up, he does not have self control. Years ago, my trainer friend and the rest of us figured out if our dogs played aggressively, then they raised their platform of aggression to the point of almost getting into a dog fight. We learned our lesson... I would never encourage or participate in an exercise that encouraged my dog to become so stimulated. Tiring a dog out does not always involve playing with it. I would be working on obedience exercises to tire my dog out. Mental situation is key. And to reiterate tether him when he gets rambunctious and only return to him when he calms down.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The guiding eye dogs are trained that they only get attention when they have all four on the floor. If JJ is wearing a leash and collar when he greets people, if you stand on a leash in that situation, he cannot jump on people....


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Ok then. As hard as this might sound he needs much more consistant training. He needs to learn place and you don't need a mat or bed for that. Just a spot where you want him to lay where you can keep an eye on him. We used the fireplace hearth. He just sounds confused to me and needs constant re direction not meds. I would not play tug with him anymore. And all toys get put away when it is time to place. He needs to know the difference between chill time and play time. Right now all he knows is play time .


How do I teach "place"?

When you say consistent training, what do you mean? We go over all the commands he knows every day, multiple times a day and in different places (i.e. inside, outside and during walks). I don't know how much more consistent I can be considering I give him just about all my free time now.

We've tried tether, first to me and than to an eye hook in the wall. When he got in his moods and I tethered him to me, he'd jump and bite me. After being ignored, he'd than start to chew the leash, which, as I've said before, only takes him a minute or two to rip apart, so I'm forced to intervene and stop him cause at this point he won't obey a "leave it" since he's extremely frustrated that he's being ignored, once I intervene and try to distract him with a toy or bone, which mostly never works, or physically pull the leash out of his mouth if it comes to that, he'll begin to jump on me and bite me. If I spray the leash with Bitter Apple, he'll get mad and once again jump on me and bite me. If I sit there and ignore him, he'll pull my pants or shirt to the point where it rips, or he'll try and nip my ankles. I went through this for weeks. When I tried tethering him to an eye hook in the wall, he would either lay there and tear the leash apart, chew on the metal eye hook, or start biting the carpet. 

I hope you don't think I'm trying to arguing with you or just trying to put all your ideas down with no reason. I appreciate the input (that's why I'm here) a great deal. I'm just trying to explain all the things I've done/tried and the reactions I get from JJ, hoping maybe I can get some more help and possibly different ideas.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> The guiding eye dogs are trained that they only get attention when they have all four on the floor. If JJ is wearing a leash and collar when he greets people, if you stand on a leash in that situation, he cannot jump on people....


That's what we've been doing the past few days, stepping on his leash so there's no possible way for him to jump. It's becoming tricky though and a lot of times we find ourselves chocking JJ. When he knows he's about to meet somebody, he instantly sits, so at that point we quickly step on the leash and cut off the slack. As the person reaches in, JJ naturally tries to jump. Since he can't, he stands up, backs up and sits back down. When he does this and backs up, he makes the leash tighter, chocking himself in the process. Within a second or two, he'll try and jump again, doing the exact same thing, backing up even more this time and now reallllly chocking himself. We try and slide our foot and leash with him so he's not chocking himself, but if we let off too much pressure, he's able to lunge and pull the leash out from under our foot. Should we not be moving our foot and just let him chock himself?

While doing this has shown to stop him from getting his paws on people, it hasn't stopped him from trying to nip their hands or shirts as they reach in to pet him, or the sleeves of a sweater tied around their waste. I mentioned before that a trainer we saw in town once before - a real well known lady who writes books and has been on Animal Planet and blah blah blah - said there's a good possibility he has a "bite ambition" (I don't think she used the word ambition but it's what I've been going with since I can't remember exactly) and it's not that he wants to bite but _has_ to bite in order to control his excitement and that since he doesn't have anything to bite, it's people hands and shirts he resorts to. Having been told that, I've tried shoving a toy in his mouth when meeting people and it's been 30/70, with 70% being the times he doesn't take it from me.

Speaking of the Guiding Eyes, they practice in town where JJ and I usually take our stroll. We cross paths with them a lot. I want one of those harness/walkers they use with the handle.


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## Tucker's mommy (Nov 9, 2011)

Wow. I just finished reading through all 9 pages of this thread, because I was so interested to be reading about a dog with very similiar issues to my own. Our Tucker, though, fortunately, is starting to settle at around 15 months, both because of his maturing and our constant working/training with him. And I feel for you. I really do. I have no advice - you are doing everything we do for our Tucker and much much more. I know everyone here has given you some great advice, but wow. I'm sure you didn't sign up for the AMOUNT of training and time you've had to put into your beautiful pup. We felt that way with Tucker. We knew what we signed up for, but we weren't expecting the excessive issues with impulse control, mouthing, and easy arousal over certain situations. We have three small children as well, which concerned us even more, because we had safety issues we had to be concerned with between Tucker and the kids. But we see the light at the end of the tunnel. And I really hope with all the work and training that you've put into your pup that you see the light soon, too.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Tucker's mommy said:


> Wow. I just finished reading through all 9 pages of this thread, because I was so interested to be reading about a dog with very similiar issues to my own. Our Tucker, though, fortunately, is starting to settle at around 15 months, both because of his maturing and our constant working/training with him. And I feel for you. I really do. I have no advice - you are doing everything we do for our Tucker and much much more. I know everyone here has given you some great advice, but wow. I'm sure you didn't sign up for the AMOUNT of training and time you've had to put into your beautiful pup. We felt that way with Tucker. We knew what we signed up for, but we weren't expecting the excessive issues with impulse control, mouthing, and easy arousal over certain situations. We have three small children as well, which concerned us even more, because we had safety issues we had to be concerned with between Tucker and the kids. But we see the light at the end of the tunnel. And I really hope with all the work and training that you've put into your pup that you see the light soon, too.


Thanks. Glad to hear that somebody was in my shoes before and made it out. You're right, we in no way planned for this amount of work, and to be honest, if we knew it was going to be this much work, we wouldn't of gotten him. That's not a regret though. We love JJ more than anything and now that we have him and he's our boy, he's our problem and we're willing to do whatever it takes to make things right. We may complain from time-to-time and get frustrated, but it's all out of love and wanting to see him do good. I basically threw my online business that I started from the ground up right out the window, with a lot of my future plans going with, so that I could put in the extra time needed with JJ. That was probably the hardest thing to cope with since a lot was riding on the business and the revenue it made. It literally changes my future, and, unfortunately, it's not really for the better.


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## mooselips (Dec 4, 2011)

I was wondering, is there anything that calms him?

Bridget calms immediately if you rub/pet her chest.

We still have the jumping issue, and the over stimulation during play...(she nipped my husband tonight while over excited playing)

You have your hands full, wish I could say something to help....

Also with Bridget we can see her improving in her behavior day by day.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Nomes said:


> is he motivated by food? Casey won't play with me unless i put food in the picture...for example, when he brings the ball back, he gets a piece of kibble. (It's also helpful for getting the ball out of his mouth!  We play hide and seek, but he has to hide while i hide _food_ for him to find...apparently i'm not exciting enough for his tastes!
> Casey is extremely smart, so i started playing the cup game with him...the one where you put a pea under a cup and rotate it around with a bunch of other ones...
> only we do it with a piece of food and just 2 cups. It's also a good brain exercise for you believe it or not! somedays Casey gets stuck in a rut of always picking the left cup, and i have to think up a creative way to get him to guess the right cup so he'll get his reward.
> 
> ...


I wanted to answer this before but forget.

He is motivated by food, so much so that it begins to overshadow the play at times. For example, when trying to play fetch, we throw a ball or one of his retrieving toys and praise him vocally as he goes after it and picks it up and with a treat when he returns with it. Usually, after about 2-3 times of doing that, he'll no longer retrieve the toy. We'll throw it, he'll turn around, run a few steps and than come straight back to us looking for the treat. We encourage him to go get it and get nothing. We go and pick it up are selves as he walks by our side looking for the treat. We try again and go through the process all over again with him just trying a few steps and turning around looking for a treat. We've even tried throwing the toy a shorter distance so he didn't have to go so far and all he does is walk over to it, sniff it and come back without it. After several times of him not getting a treat, he walks away and finds something to sniff, or eats the grass out of frustration. If he's not doing that (giving up on the toy and just wanting the food), he'll just stop playing fetch after a few throws and will run away from the toy and find something else to do.

That being said, our last trainer suggested using a ball attached to a rope and playing tug with him in between throwing it. i.e. throw it, have him bring it back, reward him, play tug for a minute or two to get his enthusiasm going, have him "give it" to you, throw it, reward him for bringing it back and repeat. I'm able to get him fetching a little more that way, mainly cause he wants to bring it back to me to play tug.

Speaking of the cup game, I've been playing the "muffin pan game" with JJ for quite a few months, maybe 2-3 times a week. For some odd reason I have half a dozen muffin pans, so what I do is take a few small pieces of his treats and hide one in each muffin pan, using tennis balls to cover the holes. I try and block JJ's view while doing this so he doesn't see which tennis balls the treats are under. I than put a piece of the treat in my hand, tell him "smell it" and I scatter the muffin pans around and tell him "find it". At that point, his nose goes bananas. So much sniffing you can hear it in the next room. Surprisingly, JJ manages to find the one treat in each muffin on the first try. Rarely does he remove more than one tennis ball from each pan, unless I leave them down there after he finds them all.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

mooselips said:


> I was wondering, is there anything that calms him?
> 
> Bridget calms immediately if you rub/pet her chest.
> 
> ...


A lot of things calm him, such as rubbing his ears, paws and chest, but that's nearly impossible to do when he starts jumping my girlfriend. She's tried, believe me, and before you can even touch him, your hand is in his mouth. We're seeing a little improvement, and I mean a little improvement, over the past few days with the behavior when my girlfriend quickly makes a kissing sound and sticks her hands straight out in front of her as if she's saying with her hands, "do you really want this", while telling him "kisses", giving him the option to comply and give a kiss and behave, or to continue biting and get what follows next - a time-out. It's like we're able to talk him out of him more and he's able to make somewhat of a better decision for himself. It's a crap shoot at this point. Tonight he actually wasn't bad and didn't act out once.


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

I, like Tucker's mom, have not only read every post, but I'm living them. You are doing an incredible job with a dog that would not have lasted in 97% of pet homes. I know that if we give up on Tayla she would be unadoptable. If she was 100% percent awful 3 months ago she is 90% awful now, not great but better at times. Keep on doing what you are doing every day and in a month hopefully you will gain a little ground. More the month after until one day you have an incredible dog. 


Sent from my iPod touch using PG Free


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Tayla's Mom said:


> You are doing an incredible job with a dog that would not have lasted in 97% of pet homes. I know that if we give up on Tayla she would be unadoptable.


Thanks for the kind words. What you mention is something that I'm continuously reminding myself and my girlfriend. We have gone to extreme lengths to care for JJ and are doing everything in our power to give him the help he needs to learn how to become a good boy. There's a lot of other people JJ could of went home with, some of whom may have given up on him a long time ago and put him up for adoption, where he just moves through the system, going from shelter to shelter, living an unenjoyable life. If we weren't the type of people we are, JJ would of been out of here long, long ago, but we're dog lovers and animal rights activists and abandoning a dog would be like giving up one of our own. It's just not gonna happen, ever. Like many people here, we look at dogs, and animals in general, no different than we look at people. They live, breathe, bleed, and feel pain and happiness just like the rest of us. If we had the room and the money to spare, we'd have half a dozen more dogs.

Hope everything works out for you and your girl, and that the 90% awfulness someday drops to 0%.


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## ScottyUSN (Jul 18, 2011)

No other advice to offer except hang in there... I think you are a few months away from surviving the terrible teens. It's cute when they are 20 lbs, not so cute when they become 60+ lbs of out of control goofy.


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## quilter (Sep 12, 2011)

Check out the section “Mouth without a brain” in the book “Control Unleashed, the Puppy Program.” The root problem is that the dog’s default behavior when excited is to jump and bite. That needs to be replaced with a more suitable default behavior, like sit. My pup is the jumpy, mouthy sort, too. I’m convinced this is the fix, and I’m working on it. This is a great book and has given me incredible insight into what’s going on with my dog, and not just when he’s excited.

You might also look at the book My Smart Puppy. It has a lot of games around space – what’s yours and not his.

Other random notes.

Jumping. When you step on the leash, yes, you need to keep it short enough so that he can’t jump up. Yes, he’ll choke himself, but the person is more important. My dog usually figures it out in two jumps. 

Treats. When Casper meets people, the reward is being petted, not food. In fact, food just makes him that more excited. The trick is to figure out what the right reward is. For example, Casper used to retrieve a lot and then sort of stopped. I wondered why and then realized that he was just sitting and waiting for the treat. I used treats to train him to sit when he returned, because he was bouncing off of me on the return. He used to be excited to fetch. So I’ve been working on making fetch more exciting and playing with him when he comes back, rather than feeding a treat. I have to be careful not to get him –too- excited when he brings the toy back. Just enough to get him chasing the ball the next time.

People. You might ask people not to pet him on the head or move their hands over his head/eyes. That’s sets a lot of dogs off. My Smart Puppy has a section on things to do that will get your puppy riled up – playing with his head is one of them. Sometimes I’ll ask kids to pet his neck instead. One he settles in, they can pet his head all they want. Flap his ears. Whatever. But past the eyes and over the head – the whole head and then the body follows.

Calming exercises. There are two things (so far) that I’ve found are successful. The first is Calm = Release at mysmartpuppy.com. When Casper sees me sit (floor or chair), he comes and sits between my legs, facing –away- from me, and sits for pets very calmly. The second I use when he’s lost it. I stand on his least, (try to) completely relax, and wait. Every time he does something calm like sitting, looking at me, or easing up on the leash, he gets a treat (clicker training is great for this). I do not lure him into any of this. I do not give any commands. He has to figure this out all by himself. Pretty soon, he gets himself settled. Then I give him lots of pets and ear rubs. One trainer called this “finding himself in his skin.” My goal is that he “finds himself” before he loses it more often. In neither of these exercise do I try to calm him down. He has to do that himself. 

I feel for you, I do. I am lucky that my dog has a very soft mouth. He’s the only dog I’ve ever met that won’t have anything to do with a rawhide. That’s weird.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have mentioned tethering when the dog is out of control.... Another thing I did was to use breath spray when my dogs were nippy. It interrupts the behavior and it annoys the dog so it stops nipping. Never had to do it much with mine. If JJ is choking when you step on the leash, why not use a head collar. Better yet, use a head collar in training, it can help close the mouth....


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## quilter (Sep 12, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> I have mentioned tethering when the dog is out of control.... Another thing I did was to use breath spray when my dogs were nippy. It interrupts the behavior and it annoys the dog so it stops nipping. Never had to do it much with mine. If JJ is choking when you step on the leash, why not use a head collar. Better yet, use a head collar in training, it can help close the mouth....


Yes, Binaca. Immediate feedback and you don't have to touch his mouth. 

We only recently moved to walking Casper on a collar. Until then we used a wonder walker harness. So he wasn't choking himself when jumping up. Actually, when jumping *up* he gets pulled down on the back of his neck, not choked. Choking happens when he pulls, and that's different.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Have you thought about conditioning him to a Gentle Leader and using that and a leash to help control him when he's overly stimulated?

Another idea is to *teach* him to enjoy really working on a giant Nylabone or something similar so that he has some sort of "sit quiet and color" activity to keep him busy when you're all trying to be in the same room. Also, teaching him to hold and carry a toy, even in the house, can help minimize jumping when people come over ... b/c you tell him to get a toy and he's concentrating on holding it, which leave less focus for jumping.


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## az_melanie (Aug 5, 2012)

All I have to say is WOW, I am impressed with your tenacity, persistence and unfailing love for your dog. He is a beauty and honestly I have the utmost respect for you in working so diligently with him. I have to say, I'd be very hard pressed to give up a job/dream/future for an animal, no matter how much I loved them! But, I haven't been in your shoes, so whose to say what choice I would make if I had a dog like Tucker! I really have no advice for you seeing as I don't even HAVE a dog yet (and this thread, along with Tayla's thread is making me second guess that  ) but just to let you know that I am impressed that you are not giving up and working so diligently with him. I did see the video. I know other's would love to see him in his 'hyper' mode too. I hope that things start to change for your quickly! And I'd probably be begging Cesar Milan to come to my house ...


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Sorry for the lack of responses here. I've been crazy busy the past couple of weeks. I'm going to take some time now to respond to some of you.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

quilter said:


> Check out the section “Mouth without a brain” in the book “Control Unleashed, the Puppy Program.” The root problem is that the dog’s default behavior when excited is to jump and bite. That needs to be replaced with a more suitable default behavior, like sit. My pup is the jumpy, mouthy sort, too. I’m convinced this is the fix, and I’m working on it. This is a great book and has given me incredible insight into what’s going on with my dog, and not just when he’s excited.
> 
> You might also look at the book My Smart Puppy. It has a lot of games around space – what’s yours and not his.
> 
> ...


I'll look for the books you mentioned and give them a read. Currently I'm reading "Unleashed" by Brad Pattison. A lot of good info.

I'm considering stopping "treat training" and going with praise and play as a reward instead. The treats don't seem to help our problems, so I'm starting to ask myself, "is it really worth using them anymore?". In the house, outside, or anywhere we're alone, JJ is all for treats and will do whatever I say to get them. But once we meet people or see a squirrel or a passing cyclist, he could care less about the treats. When meeting people, we would try to distract him with treats but it never really worked. He would either turn and grab them real quick and jump on the person with the treats still in his mouth, or he would simply just look at the treats and turn away and focus on the person as if he's saying, "I know you're trying to distract me from this person and it's not going to work. Their attention to much more valuable to me than some silly little treat". I've also noticed that he lashes out when he thinks he deserves a treat and doesn't get one. For example, he starts getting in one of his moods where he's bouncing off the walls, or as I like to call it, "getting froggy", the point where he's about to act out and leap on somebody. If we manage to stop him before he leaps and tell put him in a "sit", if we don't give him a treat and just praise him and rub his ears instead, he'll jump at us as if saying, "give me my treat, ******". Naturally, we tell him "off" and put him in another "sit". If he complies, when we go to pet him this time, he goes after our hand with an open mouth. I'm starting to believe treat training him was a bad idea, even though we tried to phase them out over time, mixing it up with treats, play and praise. It's like he refuses to let treats be phased out and will get pushy if he doesn't get them. So I'm thinking of cutting him off completely. I need him listening to me, not the treats. (and yes, I always made sure to hide the treats and only take them out after he did what I said)


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> I have mentioned tethering when the dog is out of control.... Another thing I did was to use breath spray when my dogs were nippy. It interrupts the behavior and it annoys the dog so it stops nipping. Never had to do it much with mine. If JJ is choking when you step on the leash, why not use a head collar. Better yet, use a head collar in training, it can help close the mouth....


I don't know if it was you that I discussed tethering with or someone else, but I've tried it and it doesn't go so well. There's not a lot of activities to be done in the house after work. Unless we're training, walking or playing with JJ, most of the time is spent sitting around in the living room. When I'm just sitting there and he's tethered to me, he'll eventually get bored and want to go somewhere else in the house. Since he's tethered to me, he of course can't, so he starts to get mad/frustrated and will start chewing the leash (either the slack that hangs or the medal clip). Since I know he won't "leave it" at this point, I don't bother saying it and instead give him a leash correction by pulling up on the leash. It doesn't stop him. If anything, it makes him go at the leash even more. I can do 5-6-7-8-9-14 leash corrections in a row and he won't stop. If I sit there and ignore him while he's doing it, he'll have the leash ripped apart in 2-3 minutes and will be on his way. If I spray it with bitter apple, he'll try and pull away from me when I go to do it and as soon as the spray hits the leash, he'll jump at me as if saying "F you" :doh:

Nobody's ever really told me what to do at that point. Do I give him one leash correction after another for 30-40 minutes? Do I ignore him and let him keep tearing leashes apart and "breaking out" of being tethered? Do I get up and walk around the house, and basically give in to what he wants? Giving him a command doesn't work, so that's out of the question.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I caution you to not place much stock in any method Brad Pattison recommends. He is a horrible person in general, and an abusive, cruel, dog trainer. He has not other method but yank, jerk, slap, kick and abuse the dogs he supposedly trains. Every single video that show him in action doing exactly that has conveniently been yanked off the internet.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Have you thought about conditioning him to a Gentle Leader and using that and a leash to help control him when he's overly stimulated?
> 
> Another idea is to *teach* him to enjoy really working on a giant Nylabone or something similar so that he has some sort of "sit quiet and color" activity to keep him busy when you're all trying to be in the same room. Also, teaching him to hold and carry a toy, even in the house, can help minimize jumping when people come over ... b/c you tell him to get a toy and he's concentrating on holding it, which leave less focus for jumping.


We have an Easy Walk harness which works great, and we're able to control him on a leash, however, leashes don't last long with him. If he's in one of his moods and he's leashed up, whether tethered to me or not, he'll destroy the leash in a matter of minutes (see one of my last posts about him attacking the leash when tethered)

We have nylabones, antlers and all kinds of bones. I think we own every bone on the shelf. The problem is, we can't force him to take them and remain quiet. When he wants, he'll grab one of his antlers and lay there for an hour chewing it with no problem. But I can't make him do that. After walks I try to get him to take a bone and relax and he'll grab it, chew it for a minute or two and than give up. So I grab it, give it to him again and this time he'll just ignore it or drop it after taking it. He looses interest. We've been working on the "hold" command. He picked it up in a matter of an hour or two. I think it's too soon to try it in public though.


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## BriGuy (Aug 31, 2010)

JDK said:


> I don't know if it was you that I discussed tethering with or someone else, but I've tried it and it doesn't go so well.
> 
> If I sit there and ignore him while he's doing it, he'll have the leash ripped apart in 2-3 minutes and will be on his way. If I spray it with bitter apple, he'll try and pull away from me when I go to do it and as soon as the spray hits the leash, he'll jump at me as if saying "F you"


If he's that persistent, then I might try a leash like this one:
Leerburg | Vir-Chew-Ly Indestructible Leashes










And instead of tethering him to me, I would attach the leash to an eyebolt in your baseboard. We used a somewhat similar technique to solve Cookie's jump-and-grab-clothes habit. You could probably make a similar leash with some parts from Home Depot too.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

mylissyk said:


> I caution you to not place much stock in any method Brad Pattison recommends. He is a horrible person in general, and an abusive, cruel, dog trainer. He has not other method but yank, jerk, slap, kick and abuse the dogs he supposedly trains. Every single video that show him in action doing exactly that has conveniently been yanked off the internet.


Good to know. Aside from the books mentioned in one of the previous posts I just responded to, are there any others you can recommend? 

The only reason I bought "Unleashed" was cause I thought that's what a lot of people on here told me to get. I think I was mistaken though. I think I was told to get "Control Unleashed", which quilter just recommended to me.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

BriGuy said:


> If he's that persistent, then I might try a leash like this one:
> Leerburg | Vir-Chew-Ly Indestructible Leashes
> 
> 
> ...


Wasn't aware of this type of leash, thanks. I might have to consider getting one. Just hope he doesn't destroy it at that price. I failed to mentioned that we tried the eyehook thing too, only a handful of times though. Once he figured out he was attached to something and couldn't go where he pleased, he started chewing on the eyehook. I could only let him do that for so long since I don't want to be paying to fix chipped teeth.

persistent isn't the word with JJ. Did you see the part where I said I had to tell him 70-something times to leave our throw rug alone, all in a matter of a few hours?


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

az_melanie said:


> All I have to say is WOW, I am impressed with your tenacity, persistence and unfailing love for your dog. He is a beauty and honestly I have the utmost respect for you in working so diligently with him. I have to say, I'd be very hard pressed to give up a job/dream/future for an animal, no matter how much I loved them! But, I haven't been in your shoes, so whose to say what choice I would make if I had a dog like Tucker! I really have no advice for you seeing as I don't even HAVE a dog yet (and this thread, along with Tayla's thread is making me second guess that  ) but just to let you know that I am impressed that you are not giving up and working so diligently with him. I did see the video. I know other's would love to see him in his 'hyper' mode too. I hope that things start to change for your quickly! And I'd probably be begging Cesar Milan to come to my house ...


Thanks for the compliments about JJ

Don't get me wrong, it's not like I wanted to give up my future, and I never expected that to be the case when getting a dog. Couldn't of imagined in a thousands years I'd end up with a dog this misbehaved. I've had bad dogs before that acted out, but never like this or to this extent. It's my duty and responsibility though to care for him and turn him into a good dog citizen. If that means giving some things up and putting certain plans on the back burner, than that's what I gotta do. It frustrates me, yea, but I don't show it, especially not to JJ. Gotta remain strong. Plus, I look at the good side of it and remind myself that what I gave up is for a good cause. As I've said before, there's plenty of people out there who would of given JJ up by now since they would of refused to give things up as I have and put in the time with him. I look at it as giving up my future, or at least putting it on hold for now, to save a dog's life and keep him out of a kennel where's there's no telling what could happen to him.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

How many people here use a prong collar?

We've been using one for the past month or two after it was recommend to use by one of the three trainers we've had visits with. I see improvement with it when we're out of the streets, but feel it's only cause he knows that if he acts up, he's going to feel pain. Personally, I don't like that, but I feel that it's better than having him jump on and bite somebody. We have a Gentle Leader which JJ's walks fine on (he'll maybe pull once or twice during an hour walk), but there's little correction to it when he decides to jump on a stranger that wants to meet him, so we use the prong collar when going downtown or to the store or to the vet. If we're going for a hike or around the block or anywhere where I know there's a good chance we won't be meeting people, I use the harness since I feel there's no point for the prong. The prong collar gives a stronger, more meaningful correction, or so I was told. Wearing it has sort of helped him stop jumping on people. I stress on the "sort of". Whereas he would jump on a stranger 100% of the time wearing the harness, it's now a 50/50 crap shoot. Maybe he won't, maybe he will. If he does and he pinches himself, more than likely he won't try and jump a second time. The last time we took him to the vet we used the prong collar, and he was, for the most part, calm as can be, compared to being off the walls with the vets arm in his mouth. Even the vet was surprised, saying "wow, it's like an entirely different dog". What I don't like about the prong collar is that if I step on the leash to stop him from being able to jump on people and he tries and backs up a few passes with my foot still on the leash, he's chocking himself and making the prong collar extremely tight. I remember somebody saying if he's chocking himself that's fine, he'll eventually learn, which I can understand. But I imagine it's not alright for him to be chocking himself like that when he's has a prong collar on.

Considering what I just briefly explained and JJ's bad habit of jumping on people if they stop to pet him, would you continue to use the prong collar when in public places around people since there's improvement with it? I call it the "business collar" cause once it goes on, it's like JJ's a totally different dog and he knows it's "time for business" and all the fooling around must stop, but I don't want him to be behaving for the wrong reasons, like being scared of me (he's not at all scared of the prong collar and will gladly run right over and sit in front of you when its time to put it on. It just happens to itch him a little bit)


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

JDK said:


> Thanks for the compliments about JJ
> 
> Don't get me wrong, it's not like I wanted to give up my future, and I never expected that to be the case when getting a dog. Couldn't of imagined in a thousands years I'd end up with a dog this misbehaved. I've had bad dogs before that acted out, but never like this or to this extent. It's my duty and responsibility though to care for him and turn him into a good dog citizen. If that means giving some things up and putting certain plans on the back burner, than that's what I gotta do. It frustrates me, yea, but I don't show it, especially not to JJ. Gotta remain strong. Plus, I look at the good side of it and remind myself that what I gave up is for a good cause. As I've said before, there's plenty of people out there who would of given JJ up by now since they would of refused to give things up as I have and put in the time with him. I look at it as giving up my future, or at least putting it on hold for now, to save a dog's life and keep him out of a kennel where's there's no telling what could happen to him.


Living with a very similar type of dog I admire your persistence. Every day for me is a day I get up and say, "You can do this today." Tayla is so sweet and loving, but like JJ she can be a demon. In one of her "crazy" periods she jumps and bites so quickly it's hard to catch her for corrections unless she is on leash. I have a friend who trains that thinks I'm just not being firm and if I followed Cesar Milan it would only take a few times and she would not be doing this. I have tried everything you have and all I can say is she hasn't broken skin in almost a month. Her worst is pinch biting right now. Maybe in another month she will get a little better and then better still. I, too, never thought having a puppy would be like this. I love Tayla, like you love JJ, but some days it's such a struggle.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I used a prong collar on my first golden. If fitted properly it should not cause any pain and should not choke him.


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## opie (Aug 31, 2011)

I also use a prong collar also. If used correctly it does not provide any discomfort for the dog. It was recommended by our trainer. In time, I hope to not have to use it, but for now while she gets excited by everything. I use it on Roxie when we go for walks/runs and she knows when I get it down. She comes right up to me and sits and waits for it to be put on.

My dog has actually gotten hurt by lunging with a regular collar on.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Tayla's Mom said:


> Living with a very similar type of dog I admire your persistence. Every day for me is a day I get up and say, "You can do this today." Tayla is so sweet and loving, but like JJ she can be a demon. In one of her "crazy" periods she jumps and bites so quickly it's hard to catch her for corrections unless she is on leash. I have a friend who trains that thinks I'm just not being firm and if I followed Cesar Milan it would only take a few times and she would not be doing this. I have tried everything you have and all I can say is she hasn't broken skin in almost a month. Her worst is pinch biting right now. Maybe in another month she will get a little better and then better still. I, too, never thought having a puppy would be like this. I love Tayla, like you love JJ, but some days it's such a struggle.


Hope everything works out for Tayla and you. All we can do is try our best and hope we're doing all we can. Over the years, I learned one of the most important things is to not let the dog know that you're stressed over her negative behavior and that it's getting through your skin, or she'll think she has the upper hand and that you're weak.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

You tether him away from you, not to you. So he learns that when he is misbehaving, he gets no attention from you.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Since there appears to be some people here familiar with Brad Pattison, let me ask you, what do you think about his theory that some people are talking to their dogs too much, and that the dogs are tuning them out at times and not following commands?

I talk to JJ as if he was a person. Out of an hour, we'll talk for 40 minutes. My girlfriend thinks I'm crazy sometimes cause I literally sit in the living room and carry on a conversation with myself. Is it possible that I'm talking to JJ too much and that's he's tuning me out cause he has no idea what I'm saying and that when it does come time to suddenly obey a command, i've already lost his attention due to be a chatterbox?


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> You tether him away from you, not to you. So he learns that when he is misbehaving, he gets no attention from you.


Ok, so tethering is only done when he misbehaves and it's not to me but rather an object that can hold him. Got it. Hold long should I leave him tethered when he misbehaves, and should it be within view of us and what's going on, or in a room by himself? What should happen when I un-tether him, should I give him attention or ignore him for a couple minutes as if I'm mad at him?


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

I followed your last thread and just found this one today. I am so sorry to hear you are still having problems with JJ. BUT, and it's a BIG BUT, it does sound like he's made quite a bit of improvement over the past couple months! I remember your mom was one of his biggest targets back then... and it's great he's learned some impulse control with her. Sorry to hear your girlfriend hasn't had the same luck. I give you guys all the credit in the world for the work you've put in with your boy. I wanted to touch on a couple of things, some of which have already been mentioned. 

1. Thyroid. I would definitely get a test done. It may not be an issue, but it's definitely best to rule it out. Make sure the vet runs a full thyroid panel (not just a T4 which is done "in house") and sends it to a qualified organization for analysis. Most here recommend Dr. Dodds at Hemopet.

2. Trainers. I think it's time to step up from a regular trainer or a "certified behaviorist" (That really doesn't mean much. There's no set protocol for certifying anyone, and the agencies that do so have very little control over what people do after they're certified. For example, there are a number of trainers in my area who are certified with APDT - which strives for positive, minimal force training - that regularly use electronic collars) and seek out a board certified verterinary behaviorist to work with. These people are vets with extra training regarding behavior. They are the true experts. And if your dog's issues go beyond a behavior problem into the realm of issues that would benefit from medication in addition to training, these are the folks that will be able to help you. Your general vet would be poorly equipped to do so.

3. Prong collars. They work BECAUSE they cause discomfort. It's important to understand this up front. I'm surprised that anyone would state otherwise, but there it is. That said, they are not cruel or inhumane devices. In a dog who frequently pulls strongly, they can be a health saving measure to prevent the laryngeal damage and/or paralysis that can occur with frequent, prolonged pulling on even a standard flat collar. When properly fitted and used correctly under the guidance of a qualified professional, they can be a good tool. It's not something I personally choose to use but I can't speak for you... I don't have a dog like JJ.

4. Brad Pattison. The man is rough and mean when dealing with dogs. I've seen some of the videos mentioned earlier in this thread and it's truly disturbing the way he handles the dogs in his care. He is not a trainer I would recommend to anyone. As for talking, I talk to my dogs all the time too. Perhaps using different tones of voice (one for your "general conversation," lol and another for commands or interrupters) would be useful. But if you're having trouble getting your dog to listen to you, it couldn't hurt to cut down on the chatter. When I'm on an agility course with Jersey, I speak minimally so that when I need to tell him something I can up the odds that he will be keyed in to it.... same principle. The book that was recommended was "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt.... entirely different approach to dog training.

I think that was everything... but have the odd feeling I forgot something, lol. If I think of anything else, I'll be back :curtain: Good luck with everything! I truly hope you get the payoff you're looking for... goodness knows you've put in more than enough work to deserve it! But don't forget to celebrate the little victories and the gradual progress. No matter what route you go, this will not be an overnight process.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Ah, no sooner do I hit send than I remember what I forgot.

5. Time outs. You frequently say in this thread that right now you are only giving time outs for "hard bites." Does that mean that he gets away with it if he bites you or mouths you and it's not "hard"? If it were me, I would respond every time teeth touch skin or clothes, no exceptions. It's easier for a dog to learn "I don't put my teeth there" than "I can only do it 'this hard' before I get in trouble." I understand picking one behavior at a time, but I think grading that behavior between hard and not may be part of where JJ is confused.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

JDK said:


> How many people here use a *prong collar?*
> 
> We've been using one for the past month or two after it was recommend to use by one of the three trainers we've had visits with. I see improvement with it when we're out of the streets,* but feel it's only cause he knows that if he acts up, he's going to feel pain.* Personally, I don't like that, but I feel that it's better than having him jump on and bite somebody. We have a Gentle Leader which JJ's walks fine on (he'll maybe pull once or twice during an hour walk), but there's little correction to it when he decides to jump on a stranger that wants to meet him, so we use the prong collar when going downtown or to the store or to the vet. If we're going for a hike or around the block or anywhere where I know there's a good chance we won't be meeting people, I use the harness since I feel there's no point for the prong. The prong collar gives a stronger, more meaningful correction, or so I was told. Wearing it has sort of helped him stop jumping on people. I stress on the "sort of". Whereas he would jump on a stranger 100% of the time wearing the harness, it's now a 50/50 crap shoot. Maybe he won't, maybe he will. If he does and he pinches himself, more than likely he won't try and jump a second time. The last time we took him to the vet we used the prong collar, and he was, for the most part, calm as can be, compared to being off the walls with the vets arm in his mouth. Even the vet was surprised, saying "wow, it's like an entirely different dog". What I don't like about the prong collar is that if I step on the leash to stop him from being able to jump on people and he tries and backs up a few passes with my foot still on the leash, he's chocking himself and making the prong collar extremely tight. I remember somebody saying if he's chocking himself that's fine, he'll eventually learn, which I can understand. But I imagine it's not alright for him to be chocking himself like that when he's has a prong collar on.
> 
> Considering what I just briefly explained and JJ's bad habit of jumping on people if they stop to pet him, *would you continue to use the prong collar when in public places around people since there's improvement with it?* I call it the "business collar" cause once it goes on, it's like JJ's a totally different dog and he knows it's "time for business" *and all the fooling around must stop, but I don't want him to be behaving for the wrong reasons, like being scared of me* (he's not at all scared of the prong collar and will gladly run right over and sit in front of you when its time to put it on. It just happens to itch him a little bit)


If the collar is fitted properly it should not cause pain. It will be uncomfortable but not painful. It is designed to close evenly around his neck to avoid choking. If he his choking it is probably too loose and needs to be fitted properly. If there is an improvement with the collar why would you even question whether you should use it or not? Don't you want him to improve? Why would a prong collar make him misbehave for the wrong reasons? And make him afraid of you? You need to find somthing that works and stick with it IMHO.


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## Steadfast (Aug 22, 2012)

Not a fan of prong collars but they are better than choke collars I guess. I prefer working a training program that gets the dog thinking on their own, learning what it is I want them to do in order to get what it is they want. I have found over the years it creates a more reliably trained dog and a much better relationship between myself and my dog. Think of it this way....if your toddler kept getting into the cupboards would you jerk him with a collar? No because you know he/she doesn't know better and is being taught in day to day interaction what is ok and not ok. It's the same with a dog....by jerking or causing pain to a dog you are not teaching what you want you are simply teaching the dog a fear response to having their neck popped with a collar. Just my two cents...


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Steadfast said:


> Not a fan of prong collars but they are better than choke collars I guess. I prefer working a training program that gets the dog thinking on their own, learning what it is I want them to do in order to get what it is they want. I have found over the years it creates a more reliably trained dog and a much better relationship between myself and my dog. Think of it this way....if your toddler kept getting into the cupboards would you jerk him with a collar? No because you know he/she doesn't know better and is being taught in day to day interaction what is ok and not ok. It's the same with a dog....by jerking or causing pain to a dog you are not teaching what you want you are simply teaching the dog a fear response to having their neck popped with a collar. Just my two cents...


Prong collars are not designed to pop a dog. If someone is popping their dog with a prong they are completely ignorant on how a prong collar works.


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## mooselips (Dec 4, 2011)

I have used a prong collar on Bridget...had to, to control her jumping, biting, grabbing phase of puppyhood.

IMO, the prong collar is SUPPOSE to be a self correcting tool.
Some trainers advise "popping" it, which, I hate to admit I have done when she is just ready to jump on someone.
IT works.

And, by the way, I talk to Bridget all day, and so does my husband, we are CONSTANTLY asking each other........were you talking to me, or Bridget?
lololol

What I have found in my life, is with Bridget, being such a handful, (and I also have had dogs, but none like her) I have to follow through EACH and every time, and unfortunately I haven't done that consistently this Summer, and her behavior shows for it....not her fault, but MINE.

I also use her crate for a time out.......

She returns to the real world next week, and back to classes Oct. 8th......


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> If the collar is fitted properly it should not cause pain. It will be uncomfortable but not painful. It is designed to close evenly around his neck to avoid choking. If he his choking it is probably too loose and needs to be fitted properly. If there is an improvement with the collar why would you even question whether you should use it or not? Don't you want him to improve? Why would a prong collar make him misbehave for the wrong reasons? And make him afraid of you? You need to find somthing that works and stick with it IMHO.


I believe it's fitted properly. It was fitted by one of the trainers we had. Now whether or not they did it correctly I don't know, but from what I've read and saw in videos, it appears to be fitted right. I'm not professional though, obviously. I want JJ to improve, yes, of course, but I would like him to improve without gimmicks like prong collars where behaviors like jumping, something that comes natural to a dog, results in discomfort. I understand though that some dogs need that extra correction throughout training, and hopefully one day are able to advance to a regular collar. That's my ultimate goal, so for now I'll continue to use it in situations where I know there will be people to stop and meet him.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Steadfast said:


> Not a fan of prong collars but they are better than choke collars I guess. I prefer working a training program that gets the dog thinking on their own, learning what it is I want them to do in order to get what it is they want. I have found over the years it creates a more reliably trained dog and a much better relationship between myself and my dog. Think of it this way....if your toddler kept getting into the cupboards would you jerk him with a collar? No because you know he/she doesn't know better and is being taught in day to day interaction what is ok and not ok. It's the same with a dog....by jerking or causing pain to a dog you are not teaching what you want you are simply teaching the dog a fear response to having their neck popped with a collar. Just my two cents...


I feel the same way and wish a prong collar wasn't the only way to stop his behavior. I'm sure it's not the only way, but it's the only way we've come to find so far out of all the things we've tried. We're still looking for an alternative to the prong collar and a way to stop the jumping and nipping at people without having to use it, but until than, it's seems to work, somewhat.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Prong collars are not designed to pop a dog. If someone is popping their dog with a prong they are completely ignorant on how a prong collar works.


I have to admit that I've "popped" JJ with the prong on, mostly when we first started using it. I don't believe I've done so it quite some time, unless he lunged for somebody when stopping to meet them. I use to do it when he started to pull, as that's the way the trainer who told us to use it trained us. Having tried everything we could ourselves, we figured it was in our best interest to follow the rules of the trainers we hired, especially since we were paying them to teach us how to stop the behavior. We figured they knew best and that what they were teaching us was what we needed to do. Whether or not popping the prong collar is the right or wrong thing to do it, it helped JJ learn to walk next to me when it's on and that its "time for business". Once again, I don't know if that's cause he knows the collar equals discomfort if he acts up, or if popping it helped teach him that I mean business and I'm in charge and we're not out here to run rampant in the streets. 

The trainer who introduced the prong collar did so cause of JJ's jumping on strangers. She believed that using the prong collar for a more powerful correction and teaching him that whenever I stop he sits besides me, would help stop him from jumping on people since he would eventually learn that if we're not moving, his butt belongs on the ground. In order to teach him this, she has us walk him up and down the street for a few days saying "heel" repeatedly, basically with every step we took, followed with a somewhat high-pitched "good boy" on the 4th or 5th step. After a couple steps, we would stop and have him sit besides us, popping the prong collar to get him to do so and praising him when he complied. We would wait a few seconds, say "ok" and continue walking, once again repeating "heel" over and over again, stopping again in a few feet. If at any point the leash got tight, we popped the collar and gave him a firm "no". By the end of the first day, we didn't have to pop the collar anymore to get him to sit and he'd naturally do it on his own whenever we stopped walking. He would still, however, jump at strangers when meeting them. After about a week, we phased out the "heel" after seeing a lot of improvement with the way he was walking with the prong collar and just praised him instead when he was walking good. There was little correction needed at this point, and if there was, it was a little tug on the leash followed by a "no" and not so much what you would consider a "pop". He walks beautifully with the prong collar, that's what I say it's like he knows its "time for business" whenever he's wearing it. He walks nice with the Easy Walk harness as well, but it seems I loose a little bit of control and he's more likely to pull/lunge at somebody who stops to pet him, or a pack of deer he sees cross the street in front of us.

Keep in mind, I hired a so-called professional to help me with my issues and this is what they told me to do it, so I naturally I figured it was my best interest to do it.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

JDK said:


> I believe it's fitted properly. It was fitted by one of the trainers we had. Now whether or not they did it correctly I don't know, but from what I've read and saw in videos, it appears to be fitted right. I'm not professional though, obviously. I want JJ to improve, yes, of course, but I would like him to improve without gimmicks like prong collars where behaviors like jumping, something that comes natural to a dog, results in discomfort. I understand though that some dogs need that extra correction throughout training, and hopefully one day are able to advance to a regular collar. That's my ultimate goal, so for now I'll continue to use it in situations where I know there will be people to stop and meet him.


The collar is not a gimmick it is a training tool. It's a good tool for strong dogs who have a habit of pulling. If they pull, the collar will close tight around the neck thus teaching the dog that he can control it by not pulling. Self correcting. not owner correcting. What message are you sending him if you just put it on him in certain situations. If you are going to use it be consistent. Or don't use it at all.

Please don't take this the wrong way. Consistency Is the key to training. It's not going to happen over night. If you keep changing techniques before he gets it he is just going to get confused. This is what I am seeing in your posts. Always trying something different because so far nothing has worked. Your dog is getting older and bigger and it is just going to get worse if you can't get him under control now.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> The collar is not a gimmick it is a training tool. It's a good tool for strong dogs who have a habit of pulling. If they pull, the collar will close tight around the neck thus teaching the dog that he can control it by not pulling. Self correcting. not owner correcting. What message are you sending him if you just put it on him in certain situations. If you are going to use it be consistent. Or don't use it at all.
> 
> Please don't take this the wrong way. Consistency Is the key to training. It's not going to happen over night. If you keep changing techniques before he gets it he is just going to get confused. This is what I am seeing in your posts. Always trying something different because so far nothing has worked. Your dog is getting older and bigger and it is just going to get worse if you can't get him under control now.


Before switching techniques and deciding that something doesn't work, we stick to the plan/routine for a month, if not two, since we know consistency is key and changing things every couple of days is no way to teach anybody anything, especially a dog. If we see no improvement or see more bad behaviors arising, we switch techniques as its become clear to us at that point that what whatever we're doing isn't working and something else needs to be done. The only thing we haven't stuck with for more than a few days is tethering, since, as I explain, JJ tears leashes apart. Since nobody can really give me an answer as to what I'm suppose to do when he starts chewing the leash and won't stop, we've basically cut tethering out.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

JDK said:


> Before switching techniques and deciding that something doesn't work, we stick to the plan/routine for a month, if not two, since we know consistency is key and changing things every couple of days is no way to teach anybody anything, especially a dog. If we see no improvement or see more bad behaviors arising, we switch techniques as its become clear to us at that point that what whatever we're doing isn't working and something else needs to be done. The only thing we haven't stuck with for more than a few days is tethering, since, as I explain, JJ tears leashes apart. Since nobody can really give me an answer as to what I'm suppose to do when he starts chewing the leash and won't stop, we've basically cut tethering out.


I saw 2 techniques of inconsistency in your posts. Using the prong collar *and* also using the harness. He is good on the prong but not as good on the harness. Stick to what works. The next one was teaching him to heel, then after he was doing good on heeling only after a week you switched the "heeling" command to "no".

As for tethering you can always use a chain leash.

Training is life long. Just because they know commands does not mean they won't sway. The key is to stay one step ahead of them.

Dogs are creatures of "habit" they can get confused real easily if you are not consistent. JMHO.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I saw 2 techniques of inconsistency in your posts. Using the prong collar *and* also using the harness. He is good on the prong but not as good on the harness. Stick to what works. The next one was teaching him to heel, then after he was doing good on heeling only after a week you switched the "heeling" command to "no".
> 
> As for tethering you can always use a chain leash.
> 
> ...


Yes, when it comes to using the prong and the harness, we're inconsistent with that and use one or the other depending on the situation. Personally, I don't see a need to use it if I know we won't be meeting people. If I'm just walking him around the block or through the trails away from people, he's fine and doesn't try to dart off or chase wild animals. I don't feel switching between the prong collar and the harness has anything to do with his behavioral problems. I didn't say he wasn't good on the harness. I said he's more likely to jump on strangers when wearing the harness, which is why I use the prong collar when in town and around people, and the harness when we're on our own away from the rest of the world. So, basically, we're "sticking to what works" and following a plan. He walks just as good on the harness as he does the prong collar.

In regards to the heeling....We didn't just switch the command to no overnight. Sorry I didn't go into more detail about that and make myself clear. We slowly phased out the "heel" command over 2-3 days after it became evident that JJ knew what we wanted. Instead of saying it with every step, we started saying it maybe once every ten steps, then once every 20 steps and so on. On top of that, we didn't just tell him "no" and not praise him when he was doing the right thing. We switched the "heel" with "good boy" and made sure to praise him as much as possible when he was walking near us, letting him know that we were happy with the decisions he was making. If needed, we corrected him with a leash correction followed by a firm "no", and when it had to be done, all it took was one correction to get him back in position and near us again, which at that point he was praised for making the choice to slow down and get by our side. We practiced the heel technique for 2-3 hours a day.

I considered using a chain leash and asked several trainers about doing so and all of them said they wouldn't even think of using a chain leash on a dog that's known to chew a leash, due to the negative effects it can have on his teeth. I'm not exactly looking to start replacing his teeth. Another member her directed me to another leash that's suppose to be indestructible so I think I'll check that one out.

I understand training is life long, and I work with JJ continuously. I try and stress that to people all the time. When explaining JJ's behaviors, a lot of people make it out as if I'm not working with him and training him, when in reality that's basically all I'm doing, for several hours a day. I'm dedicated to it and vigilant about it. There is no down time for me after work. Between the hours of 4-11, I'm with JJ every minute, and it's not like we're just sitting around watching TV. Granted we will here and there for a couple minutes, but most of the time we're training, walking or playing. I take him on a 2 hour walk every night. It use to be an hour, but I gave eating dinner during the week to extend the walk another hour, hoping he'll behave better after. How many people do you know that will give up eating dinner 5 nights a week to do that? My dog is more important to me than my own health. Seeing as how I walk 1 mile every 20 minutes, JJ and I walk around 6 miles a night. That's not including the 45 minute walk he takes in the morning (2 miles) and the 30 minute walk he gets in the afternoon (1.5 miles). He's being walked between 9-10 miles a day and is still off the wall. Sometimes it seems the more tired he is, the more he misbehaves since he doesn't know what to do with himself or how to relax.


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## alphadude (Jan 15, 2010)

Hey JDK. Sorry to hear about your tribulations with JJ. My 4.5 year old Axl had similar behaviors when he was a 'teen' but he would direct them mainly toward my wife. It got to the point where her coworkers thought I was beating her because her arms were constantly black and blue. I read through this entire thread and I must commend you for your commitment to JJ. 

You have been given a ton of awesome suggestions and analysis. Here's my 2 cents. 

It sounds as if JJ might be a high energy dominant male like Ax. I'm not a Ceasar Milan disciple by any means but I do believe some of what he preaches is valid. Be JJ's alpha and strive to remain calm and assertive. Don't EVER scream or worse yet resort to physical punishment. That is counterproductive. You can tell a LOT from a dog's body language (posture) and they are EXTREMELY sensitive to our moods, emotional states, posture and even facial expressions. I have seen studies where a perfectly well behaved dog will start going ballistic when riding in a car and a police cruiser approaches from behind with the lights on and the driver experiences fear. It's possible that JJ senses your or your girl's apprehension when you sense he's about to go off and it just compounds the problem? When walking him and someone approaches do you tense up - even unconsciously? If so you better believe he knows it.

Anyway, I am sure you guys will get through this situation and he will turn out to be an AWESOME companion like Axl. Keep at it, JJ's worth it.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

@Wyatt's Mommy - No disrespect, I appreciate all the help and suggestions, really. I clearly am not an expert or even an experienced trainer with years of success behind me or I wouldn't be in this position. In regards to use switching between the harness and prong collar depending on the situation, I'm not trying to argue with you. I just can't see how switching between the two is giving JJ the wrong signals or confusing him. If you could explain to me how it is, I would love to hear as I'm an eager learner. But until you or somebody can explain it, I'll be sticking to the plan of switching back and forth based on the situation. I've read where people say they only use a prong collar during training, so what's the problem with me only using it when we're around the general public? That's where he needs training the most, not when it's just him and I two miles deep in the woods or around the neighborhood where we seldom see people who are interested in stopping to see us. Wouldn't me using the prong collar when we're in high traffic areas where I know people will be stopping us in our tracks to meet JJ basically be the same thing as people using it only when they train? If not, please explain why.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

alphadude said:


> Hey JDK. Sorry to hear about your tribulations with JJ. My 4.5 year old Axl had similar behaviors when he was a 'teen' but he would direct them mainly toward my wife. It got to the point where her coworkers thought I was beating her because her arms were constantly black and blue. I read through this entire thread and I must commend you for your commitment to JJ.
> 
> You have been given a ton of awesome suggestions and analysis. Here's my 2 cents.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the comments. As I've said before, I learned years ago that allowing a dog to see that you're stressed isn't a good thing and that they'll take advantage of it, thinking you're weak. I'm a happy person who wakes up with a smile everyday, just enjoying every minute of life that I can. I think it's the biggest blessing to climb out of my bed in the morning cause there's a lot of people who didn't wake up like you and I did. Things frustrate me sometimes, I wouldn't be human if they didn't, but you rarely ever see it cause I'm always smiling, joking around and just having a good time. No matter how bad things may be, there's always something to smile about. My girlfriend even gets mad sometimes cause she can't get me mad. You know those times where you did something wrong and your spouse is unhappy with it and wants you to feel bad about it? Well, since I don't show my stress or that I'm feeling down, my girlfriend gets mad in those sorts of situations cause she thinks "I don't care" haha.

Speaking on my girlfriend, she shows her stress, and I'm sure JJ's picking it up. She tries her best to hide it and has been a lot better doing so over the months, but it's not as easy for some as it is for others.

I'm sure I use to tense up when meeting people with JJ since my biggest fear is him jumping up and biting somebody in the face and us getting sued and him possibly put down, but I know I haven't in a long time after I reminded myself that doing so makes him feel as if something is wrong and what's about to happen isn't something "normal", and that I have to show him that I have somewhat of a level of trust in him. I can walk him through a crowd no problem without him trying to touch a single person. It's when they stop to meet him that things take a turn for the worse. He usually knows before I do that somebody is going to stop, since they usually make and maintain eye contact with him and get a much more brighter expression on their face before saying, "hey, can I pet your dog?". He loves people. He thrives for their attention. When we use to take him to the dog park, which we know longer due, there could be 20 dogs there running around with each other and you'd find JJ sitting with some stranger. When meeting people, I step on the leash so he doesn't have enough slack to jump, rather than tightening the leash in my hand. The problem is, he bounces around so much that he ends up making the leash tense. I don't know if he knows he's the one who made the leash tense by bouncing around, or if he thinks I'll tightening it cause I'm tensed by the situation. I also began introducing myself first and shaking the persons hand before they reach in to touch JJ, so he knows I'm okay with the person and that they're a friend of mine and not an enemy we need to attack.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

JDK said:


> Yes, when it comes to using the prong and the harness, we're inconsistent with that and use one or the other depending on the situation. Personally, I don't see a need to use it if I know we won't be meeting people. If I'm just walking him around the block or through the trails away from people, he's fine and doesn't try to dart off or chase wild animals. I don't feel switching between the prong collar and the harness has anything to do with his behavioral problems. I didn't say he wasn't good on the harness. I said he's more likely to jump on strangers when wearing the harness, which is why I use the prong collar when in town and around people, and the harness when we're on our own away from the rest of the world. So, basically, we're "sticking to what works" and following a plan. He walks just as good on the harness as he does the prong collar.
> 
> In regards to the heeling....We didn't just switch the command to no overnight. Sorry I didn't go into more detail about that and make myself clear. We slowly phased out the "heel" command over 2-3 days after it became evident that JJ knew what we wanted. Instead of saying it with every step, we started saying it maybe once every ten steps, then once every 20 steps and so on. On top of that, we didn't just tell him "no" and not praise him when he was doing the right thing. We switched the "heel" with "good boy" and made sure to praise him as much as possible when he was walking near us, letting him know that we were happy with the decisions he was making. If needed, we corrected him with a leash correction followed by a firm "no", and when it had to be done, all it took was one correction to get him back in position and near us again, which at that point he was praised for making the choice to slow down and get by our side. We practiced the heel technique for 2-3 hours a day.
> 
> ...


If you are going to use a training collar (which you said works) it should be used every time he goes out regardless if there are people around. Because he does not know how to walk correctly on a leash. Once you get to the point where he never jumps and pulls (or even trys) down the road then he can be trusted on a different kind of collar. You said you changed the "heeling" command to "no" because he was doing what you wanted him to do. *You know this HE doesn't. *He is just hearing a _new command_. He was doing what you wanted because he learned what "heel" meant. Why change what is working? You are worried about his teeth so won't even try a chain to tether him with. I'm sorry it's not that I don't think you love or don't spend every spare moment with him, I just see alot of excuses, inconsistency and mixed signals. I think he might just be confused. IMHO. He is what 16 months old? Good luck in your future training!


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> If you are going to use a training collar (which you said works) it should be used every time he goes out regardless if there are people around. Because he does not know how to walk correctly on a leash. Once you get to the point where he never jumps and pulls (or even trys) down the road then he can be trusted on a different kind of collar. You said you changed the "heeling" command to "no" because he was doing what you wanted him to do. *You know this HE doesn't. *He is just hearing a _new command_. He was doing what you wanted because he learned what "heel" meant. Why change what is working? You are worried about his teeth so won't even try a chain to tether him with. I'm sorry it's not that I don't think you love or don't spend every spare moment with him, I just see alot of excuses, inconsistency and mixed signals. I think he might just be confused. IMHO. He is what 16 months old? Good luck in your future training!


He's coming up on 17-months of age. I understand what you're saying, but he does know how to walk correctly on a leash. Walking isn't a problem. I thought I made that clear. Jumping on people is the problem, not walking or pulling. He walks besides me, stops when I stop, turns when I turn, all with no commands. He's been able to do that for months since we worked hard on "loose leash" training and teaching him that pulling gets him nowhere. I still don't quite understand how JJ is getting mixed signals when we switch between the harness and the prong collar. He knows when the harness goes on that we're going out to play around by ourselves, maybe running around some trees in the woods or playing in the field up at the park. When the prong collar goes on, he knows it's "time for business" and that we're not playing around. I say this cause of the way his body language and attitude changes. When the harness goes on, his nose is to the ground and he's stopping to sniff everything he can, and he acts a little more goofy. When the prong collar goes on, his head is up and he's ready to "work" and doesn't even think of stopping to sniff that bush or pick up that stick he saw laying in the grass cause he knows that's not what we're about right now and that it's time to be serious. As I said before, we stopped repeating "heel" during our walks cause we saw no need to do it, even before we started doing it since he was trained since day 1 to walk on a loose leash. I'm told to go with my gut, and my gut told me that what I was doing served no purpose since I wasn't trying to correct any sort of negative behavior when it came to him walking, and basically just saying it to say it.

Are you saying that you suggest I put a chain leash on a dog that's known to chew the leash (I'm sure you saw the part where I said he chews on the metal clip) and basically just allow him to destroy his teeth? I don't think that's smart, and me saying that I'm not looking to replace his teeth isn't an "excuse". It's me saying I would rather learn how to stop my dog from doing it altogether through training, rather than putting a metal leash on him and allowing him to just lay there and destroy his teeth when tethered.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

JDK said:


> He's coming up on 17-months of age. I understand what you're saying, but he does know how to walk correctly on a leash. Walking isn't a problem. I thought I made that clear. Jumping on people is the problem, not walking or pulling. He walks besides me, stops when I stop, turns when I turn, all with no commands. He's been able to do that for months since we worked hard on "loose leash" training and teaching him that pulling gets him nowhere. I still don't quite understand how JJ is getting mixed signals when we switch between the harness and the prong collar. He knows when the harness goes on that we're going out to play around by ourselves, maybe running around some trees in the woods or playing in the field up at the park. When the prong collar goes on, he knows it's "time for business" and that we're not playing around. I say this cause of the way his body language and attitude changes. When the harness goes on, his nose is to the ground and he's stopping to sniff everything he can, and he acts a little more goofy. When the prong collar goes on, his head is up and he's ready to "work" and doesn't even think of stopping to sniff that bush or pick up that stick he saw laying in the grass cause he knows that's not what we're about right now and that it's time to be serious. As I said before, we stopped repeating "heel" during our walks cause we saw no need to do it, even before we started doing it since he was trained since day 1 to walk on a loose leash. I'm told to go with my gut, and my gut told me that what I was doing served no purpose since I wasn't trying to correct any sort of negative behavior when it came to him walking, and basically just saying it to say it.
> 
> Are you saying that you suggest I put a chain leash on a dog that's known to chew the leash (I'm sure you saw the part where I said he chews on the metal clip) and basically just allow him to destroy his teeth? I don't think that's smart, and me saying that I'm not looking to replace his teeth isn't an "excuse". It's me saying I would rather learn how to stop my dog from doing it altogether through training, rather than putting a metal leash on him and allowing him to just lay there and destroy his teeth when tethered.


He is now collar smart. Regardless of the kind of collar, it should never deter him from having fun, playing and running in the woods etc. Walking correctly on a leash also pertains to not jumping on people He has not mastered that yet. Yet you say he walks correctly on the leash. Sure when nobody is around, however lets get real

I don't know anyone that has taught their dog to heel, regardless of age, who doesn't still use that command. Same with your recall word. Release word etc.......I think you get the point.

I know how dogs can chew. My Cody was a rock eater However I never ruled out something before I tried it. But that's just me.

I have no more advice for you. You are going to do what your gut says, hopefully it will get you better results in the future than what it is now.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> He is now collar smart. Regardless of the kind of collar, it should never deter him from having fun, playing and running in the woods etc. Walking correctly on a leash also pertains to not jumping on people He has not mastered that yet. Yet you say he walks correctly on the leash. Sure when nobody is around, however lets get real
> 
> I don't know anyone that has taught their dog to heel, regardless of age, who doesn't still use that command. Same with your recall word. Release word etc.......I think you get the point.
> 
> ...


I have no problem with him being collar smart if it means he behaves better. I still have yet to hear a valid explanation on how switching between the prong collar and the harness is confusing him and giving him the wrong signals. He can't run around and play in the woods with a prong collar on, unless he wants to be pinching himself every time he takes more than 2 steps ahead or behind me. I wouldn't dare try and run around the woods with a dog on one. I could trip, he could trip, the leash could get snagged on something (which actually happens quite often to us), all resulting in him getting pinched for reasons he shouldn't of been. What kind of lesson does he learn from what?

Don't jumble my words, please. It was never said that JJ "only walks correctly on a leash when nobody is around". I did mention that I can walk him through a crowd of people, with or without the prong collar, didn't I? He walks correctly no matter who's around or what he's being walked on - harness or prong collar. It's meeting people where things take a turn for the worst (boy does that sound familiar). I personally don't believe walking correctly and not jumping on people are the same thing. I look at them as two different battles and two different things the dog must be taught how to do. Sure, they may go together in the long run, but just cause your dog jumps doesn't mean he doesn't know how to walk and he's out of control when he's on a leash cause he could still be a jumper off leash. But hey, that's just my opinion.

There's nothing to really try when it comes to a chain leash. I've witness JJ chew on the metal clip on a regular leash for 5-10 minutes straight, on several occasions. Knowing that, I'm not going to put a chain leash on my dog and let him destroy his teeth. I would much rather learn how to stop the behavior, rather than ignore it and end up paying through the pocket for it. Unless I can figure out how to stop him from chewing the leash, tethering is something I can't see myself doing anymore than I already have since I see nothing but confusion for JJ coming out of it. Let says, for example, that I do get a chain leash that he can't chew through and tether him when he misbehaves. Say he lays there for 20 minutes and chews on the chain, doing so cause he hates having to be tied to it and not allowed to go where he pleases. What do I do? Leave him there for another 20 minutes while he chews on it, and another 20 minutes after that? Cause I know already that he won't stop chewing it having watched him chew on the metal pieces on the other leashes. Wouldn't letting him off the leash as he's chewing it be basically giving in to what he wants, considering he's chewing it cause he wants to get off it, confusing him in the process? Being JJ is so persistent, tethering when he misbehaves would lead to him chewing the leash non-stop until he was able to get through it, which would lead to me never being able to un-tether him since doing so would only teach him that chewing the leash gets him off it.


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## Kally76 (Jun 14, 2010)

This is in no way any kind of helpful comment. This thread makes me picture some of the scenes from the movie "Marley and Me." Any way just had to throw that in there. LOL.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

JDK said:


> I have no problem with him being collar smart if it means he behaves better. I still have yet to hear a valid explanation on how switching between the prong collar and the harness is confusing him and giving him the wrong signals. He can't run around and play in the woods with a prong collar on, unless he wants to be pinching himself every time he takes more than 2 steps ahead or behind me. I wouldn't dare try and run around the woods with a dog on one. I could trip, he could trip, the leash could get snagged on something (which actually happens quite often to us), all resulting in him getting pinched for reasons he shouldn't of been. What kind of lesson does he learn from what?
> 
> Don't jumble my words, please. It was never said that JJ "only walks correctly on a leash when nobody is around". I did mention that I can walk him through a crowd of people, with or without the prong collar, didn't I? He walks correctly no matter who's around or what he's being walked on - harness or prong collar. It's meeting people where things take a turn for the worst (boy does that sound familiar). I personally don't believe walking correctly and not jumping on people are the same thing. I look at them as two different battles and two different things the dog must be taught how to do. Sure, they may go together in the long run, but just cause your dog jumps doesn't mean he doesn't know how to walk and he's out of control when he's on a leash cause he could still be a jumper off leash. But hey, that's just my opinion.
> 
> There's nothing to really try when it comes to a chain leash. I've witness JJ chew on the metal clip on a regular leash for 5-10 minutes straight, on several occasions. Knowing that, I'm not going to put a chain leash on my dog and let him destroy his teeth. I would much rather learn how to stop the behavior, rather than ignore it and end up paying through the pocket for it. Unless I can figure out how to stop him from chewing the leash, tethering is something I can't see myself doing anymore than I already have since I see nothing but confusion for JJ coming out of it. Let says, for example, that I do get a chain leash that he can't chew through and tether him when he misbehaves. Say he lays there for 20 minutes and chews on the chain, doing so cause he hates having to be tied to it and not allowed to go where he pleases. What do I do? Leave him there for another 20 minutes while he chews on it, and another 20 minutes after that? Cause I know already that he won't stop chewing it having watched him chew on the metal pieces on the other leashes. Wouldn't letting him off the leash as he's chewing it be basically giving in to what he wants, considering he's chewing it cause he wants to get off it, confusing him in the process? Being JJ is so persistent, tethering when he misbehaves would lead to him chewing the leash non-stop until he was able to get through it, which would lead to me never being able to un-tether him since doing so would only teach him that chewing the leash gets him off it.


I used to take my Cody running with me everyday with a prong collar on. He was never in pain. You seem to just look for excuses of what might or might not happen. He is connecting prong to meaning he can't relax and play. If trained correctly with a prong he woudn't. He would just connect it to going out on his leash period.


Everyone here has given excellent advice. You can either take the advice or not.


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## tomw (Jul 9, 2012)

Lacie is not as bad as JJ by any means. However, I have bite marks and scratches on my hands, arms, and legs because of her jumping up and mouthing. My wife is nervous sometimes when Lacie is on the couch with us, as she (Lacie) will suddenly get up and start mouthing or pulling at our clothes. I am working with a behaviorist now to try and bring an end to it, as my own efforts have failed. I would not recommend doggy boot camp. You don't know what will or will not happen to JJ while he is there. Plus, you are correct in that he needs to work with you and learn to listen to you, and not a trainer who he will not see again at the close of the camp session. I would continue to work with him at home with a trainer/behaviorist. I am learning how NOT to reinforce Lacie's bad manners. I am learning that I have a big part to play in modifying Lacie's behavior by how I respond and interact with her. I should think the same would be said about you and JJ. So, I support your choice not to send him to doggy boot camp. Good Luck!


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I used to take my Cody running with me everyday with a prong collar on. He was never in pain. You seem to just look for excuses of what might or might not happen. He is connecting prong to meaning he can't relax and play. If trained correctly with a prong he woudn't. He would just connect it to going out on his leash period.
> 
> 
> Everyone here has given excellent advice. You can either take the advice or not.


Take it as you see it, but I'm merely looking for answers and trying to learn here, as well as sharing my experiences with JJ. Don't we teach our kids that if they don't understand something to ask, and that if it doesn't make sense to ask the person to explain it to them so that it does? I thank you for your suggestions and if you have no more to give or can't answer some of the questions I've asked about how to control certain behaviors/situations, such as the one about tethering with a chain leash and him continuously chewing it, that's quite alright. There's a lot of excellent advice here, you're right about that. Some of it we're already began trying, however, I'm not about to try any technique unless I know how to handle the situations that are going to arise cause me doing the wrong thing without knowing what is right and wrong isn't going to help anything - hence all the "what if" questions when it comes to certain things.

If wearing the prong means him knowing he can't "play", that's fine cause we're not playing and him thinking/knowing that is much better right now than having him jump on people. It's not like he neglects the prong and walks around with a puss face. He looks as happy as ever cause he knows we're going into high-traffic areas where there's going to be a number of opportunities to meet new people, and, in fact, I think he even looks up at me more than when wearing the harness, looking for me to guide him or tell him what's next, or simply just tell him that he's a good boy and doing a good job.

Our walks with the prong collar and the harness are much different. When on the harness and by ourselves, JJ is usually given a lot more slack on the leash and trusted to roam a few feet in either direction if he wants. Most of the time I have to encourage him to go a few times before he does so cause he's use to walking next to me. There's a lot of stops being made too. When on the prong, he's by my side at all times with enough slack to form the "J" everybody talks about, which remains a "J" and doesn't turn into a "L" as it would when he was a pup and just leaning to walk on leash, and there's fewer stops since he goes into work mode and choices to pass over things he would normally stop and sniff otherwise. 

I don't believe dogs should play 24/7. I think there needs to be a balance of work and play. A mix of the two is a good for everybody, dogs and humans. Too much play and you forget what it means to work for something, and too much work and you forget how to have fun. Having play outside of work makes that play all that much more valuable. Since JJ's biggest reward seems to be meeting and getting attention from strangers, he has to work to achieve it.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

tomw said:


> Lacie is not as bad as JJ by any means. However, I have bite marks and scratches on my hands, arms, and legs because of her jumping up and mouthing. My wife is nervous sometimes when Lacie is on the couch with us, as she (Lacie) will suddenly get up and start mouthing or pulling at our clothes. I am working with a behaviorist now to try and bring an end to it, as my own efforts have failed. I would not recommend doggy boot camp. You don't know what will or will not happen to JJ while he is there. Plus, you are correct in that he needs to work with you and learn to listen to you, and not a trainer who he will not see again at the close of the camp session. I would continue to work with him at home with a trainer/behaviorist. I am learning how NOT to reinforce Lacie's bad manners. I am learning that I have a big part to play in modifying Lacie's behavior by how I respond and interact with her. I should think the same would be said about you and JJ. So, I support your choice not to send him to doggy boot camp. Good Luck!


Care to explain how you've reacted to certain situations and how they played a part in reinforcing the bad behavior? As I said before, I'm eager to learn!


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

JDK, please understand that taking JJ to places with lots of people and lots of opportunity to get excited and out of control is setting him up to fail and it is counter productive. Sure the prong collar reminds him that he could get 'hurt' -he knows it can 'hurt' so he will be on his best behavior, but what has he learned? If he has learned anything, would he not continue to use that knowledge when he is not wearing the prong collar? JJ is highly rewarded by meeting people, he can't do it because he can't control himself, he can't control himself because there are tooo many people, too much going on, it is too exciting. It is like taking a kid to the playground and saying 'no playing until you do 'this', but the kid does not know how to do 'this', all he knows is he wants to play, so he is not even going to be able to learn how to do 'this', because he is so focused on playing, what JJ knows is he wants to greet everybody!! Before you can teach JJ to greet lots of people, he has to know how to greet one person at a time, without other people around. Before he can meet one person, he needs to learn to stay calm when seeing a stranger, then two, then three. His excitement level starts to build 'on sight' of a stranger, the closer you get the higher the excitement level, until it is out of control.
Work on desensitizing him to people.Take him out and 'people watch', use a front clip harness and attach the leash to the D-ring on the harness and the D-ring on his flat collar, it will give you more control over his head and body. Start at a distance that he can stay calm, when he looks at a person, praise and reward. Slowly decrease the distance over days, weeks, as long as he stays calm when he is looking. If he can not stay calm, you have moved too close too fast, back up to where he can keep it together and continue rewarding looking and staying calm. Your goal at this point is to teach him to look and stay calm, for as close as 10 feet, or across the street. Then work with people approaching him, as long as he stays calm, the approach continues, the second he starts getting excited, make a U-turn, get off the sidewalk, move up a driveway, move away from that person - create distance, distance will make it easier for him to stay in control and reward him for doing so. You do not want to give him a chance to lunge at or jump on someone, and you want him to remain calm. When he gets to the point he can pass by someone on the sidewalk (not too close) and stay calm, then you can work on meeting people (one at a time).
JJ is in essence a 'reactive dog', the anticipation of meeting people sends him 'over the top' with excitement - he cannot control himself, a dog that is stressed either by anxiety(fear) or excitement is not a thinking dog, a dog that cannot think- cannot learn. The jumping up is the 'end result' of out of control excitement. Until he learns to keep it together is less stimulating environments, there is no way he is going to be able to keep it together in a highly arousing environment with lots of stimuli, that 'set him off'.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Charliethree said:


> When he gets to the point he can pass by someone on the sidewalk (not too close) and stay calm, then you can work on meeting people (one at a time)..


I love the idea of using desensitization techniques, but have a question for you. This is a dog who can reportedly already walk on a loose leash through a crowd on either a harness or a prong collar while being calm and maintaining his heel. It's also a dog who has had so many "one on one" greetings with neighbors go wrong that it's difficult for the OP to find opportunities for that kind of calm situation. 

Perhaps there would be ways to tweak the technique to focus solely on calm greetings (as opposed to just being comfortable within a reasonable distance of people, since that already seems to have been accomplished)? The OP mentioned that a maintained eye contact from a passerby can sometimes be the first thing that gets JJ going... maybe start there, from a distance away and for a brief enough duration that he's calm and can be rewarded, and work up on the person getting closer and closer? Again, I think it's a great idea but was just wondering if you might have some tips for making it more specific to JJ's problem in light of what we've been told by the OP. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

@Charliethree, thanks for taking the time to explain a technique and how I should go about it. That's the sort of things I'm looking for here.

As Jersey's Mom pointed out, JJ is able to walk calmly through a crowd of people without trying to "get at them". We live near the local train station and cross paths with the crowds of people getting off the train after work. Sometimes we have to weave in and out of them cause they're all over the place and hog the sidewalks. So should we still do the desensitizing techniques or move straight to introductions? We've tried working on one-on-one greetings with new people and family members he hasn't met, but they refuse to help us at this point cause JJ either bit them in the arm, wouldn't stop jumping on them, or ripped their shirt. So like Jersey's Mom said, it's hard for us to find chances to put JJ in these calm, one-on-one greetings since most people he's had interactions with consider him a "monster" and a "maniac" and don't want to deal with his antics anymore. 

I will try the desensitization techniques you mentioned and see how they go. I like to people watch myself. Let me just point out though that JJ gets very anxious. Whenever we stop for a "breather", whether it be in town around people or at the park by ourselves, JJ refuses to remain clam and just relax. He may sit for a minute or two at first with me petting him and praising him for being a "good boy" and just relaxing, but it's not long before he's on his feet and trying to go. And if I don't get up and continue moving, he'll start whimpering. If I ignore the whimper and try and reassure him that everything's ok, he'll get frustrated and start eating grass, rocks, sticks or whatever he can find on the ground around him. If I tell him to stop and try and correct the behavior, he turns his frustration on me and starts trying to jump in my lap.

If JJ and I are out people watching as you explain and he's starts doing any of the stuff I just explained, how should I react to it? When it comes to rewarding him with treats at this time, when shouldn't he get rewarded? For example, if he whimpers and I tell him it's ok and to "sit", do I reward him as soon as he sits or do I wait a couple seconds so he doesn't think he got a treat for whimpering? If he starts eating the grass or acting out cause we're not moving, do I reward him as soon as he stops after being told to "knock it off", or do I wait a couple seconds so he doesn't think he got rewarded for eating grass? When going in for an introduction, if he decides to try and jump and can't cause my foot is on the leash, do I reward him for sitting there even though he tried to jump and couldn't, and if not, how long do I wait before rewarding him after he's tried jumping?

I've tried something similar to what Jersey's Mom explained about keeping him at a distance from the person until he clams down, and than slowly moving in towards the person once he's figured out that getting all excited is getting him nowhere. However, he's known to clam down and get hyped up at the flip of a switch and we've seen him give off the appearance that he was calm and wasn't going to jump, than as soon as the person reached in to touch him, he was trying to jump. Last night I had him down in town. This older guy comes up to us and I had JJ sit before he got to us. I stepped on the leash so JJ couldn't jump. When the guy reached in to pet him, JJ tried to jump and went after his arm with an open mouth. Having dogs himself, the guy knew enough to pull his arm away and teach JJ that doing that gets him no attention. JJ sat there calmly just looking at the guy for about 2 minutes after that. He didn't appear that he was going to jump or bite. When the guy went to reach in again, it was the same situation with JJ trying to jump. He's a manipulator. When we use to do timeouts in the crate, as soon as he went in the crate he would lay there and wouldn't make a peep, giving you the impression that he calm. As soon as you let him out, he was jumping all over you. Any suggestions on how I can tweak the techniques to deal with this?


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## Nomes (Nov 7, 2011)

this is my 2cents...
if he starts to whimper, you shouldn't pet him or say "it's ok" and all that...what he thinks is "i whimper, human pets me". What he should think is "i whimper, human ignores me".
Next time he gets anxious (if it's truly anxiety, not a trick he's learned) take him for a quick walk around your bench or wherever you are, just to distract him. Of course, if he loves walking around, this would also be a reward to him for whimpering....so maybe try this when he's pretty tired, so it won't be much of a "reward". 
I'm willing to bet that he's just learned what gets attention. Why would he get anxious over sitting still? it seems that he's well socialized to his environment if he can walk with you wherever and not whimper. So when you sit down, relax! JJ will feel it...if he does well for the first few minutes keep stroking his head or wherever he likes it best. The second he seems agitated...stop, lean back, cross your arms, whatever. Make it clear that he's not getting anything from you. if he continues to get frustrated, ignore it! however if he realizes that he isn't getting anything out of you and shuts up, bend down and start gently petting him. repeat if he starts whining again. He seems like a pretty smart guy and he will get it if you stick with it!
if you know he gets destructive, toss him something to play with. however, do that when you first sit down, NOT as a reward for destructive behavior!
He may be using this as a last resort. "If human ignores me and i get a little crazy, he talks to me again!" Try to remove all sticks with-in his leash range. or just keep him on a short leash. if he rips at the grass, so what...it's not going to kill him...
If he catches on to this new way of thinking pretty quick, move to a park, where he can be around people that may look at him and maintain eye contact while they admire him. as Charliethree was talking about, move him closer and closer while he is remaining calm while people look at him.
Good luck!  let us know how it goes!


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

I've read through this thread and a few things pop into my mind. 

1. I think JJ is a very smart dog. It's been pointed out he's collar-smart now...so is my dog. I routinely walk him in a prong, a martingale, and sometimes a harness. Each 'device' is used for a different purpose and he's figured that out. I have no doubt JJ has or will figure it out, too. If 'prong' to him means work, then keep it up. Make him heel at your side, sit when you stop, do left box turns, etc. to keep him thinking and working. Put the harness on for when you want to go to the river or something 'fun'. 

2. JJ needs a job. The mere fact that he changes his disposition when the prong is on means he WANTS a job. My dog is like this, too. As soon as his backpack comes out, he stands as still as a statue until it's on and his leash is hooked up. He won't visit other dogs, stop to meet people, etc. when his backpack is on because he's 'working'.

I highly recommend getting JJ a doggie backpack. Get him used to it, then you can fill it with evenly weighed items, like 600ml water bottles. Put the backpack on for your walks and see if there's a difference in his behaviour. I would suggest that when he has his backpack on, you don't let him meet people. Cross the streets if you see someone coming. If someone is walking towards you, shorten the leash so JJ won't be able to leap up to the person (assuming he does when you're walking and not just stopped to visit). if someone tries to stop you to pet him, say 'sorry, he's in training' and keep going. Do not use the backpack at the same time you're trying to train him to meet people calmly. Keep those separate instances. Your goal is to get him to walk past people when he has his backpack on because he's working. Does that make sense? 

3. I'd sign him up for agility training. A good agility trainer teaches a high-energy dog how to focus his exuberance. JJ needs to channel his exuberance into something productive and agility training will help sooo much. It sounds like he has his basic obedience down but basic obedience doesn't help with exuberance. Agility does. You won't need a set of jumps or a tunnel at home to reap the benefits of agility training. It'll teach JJ patience (waiting while other dogs get their turn) and so on. THAT is what it sounds like he needs. I took my dog to it for different reasons and he threw temper tantrums for the first few classes because he didn't know how to handle all the excitement and stress. My dog is super intense and he couldn't deal with it...by the end, he could. 

4. Along with giving JJ a job, I would make his whole daily routine a job. He needs more expectations. He sounds smart, so teaching him new things should be relatively easy. Do you clicker-train? At any rate, the second JJ wakes up, I would put him to work. His breakfast in a kong wobbler. Teach him to bring you the paper. Teach him how to open a door or turn on/off the lights. Teach him how to close cupboard doors. Does he know the name of his leash? Can he put his collar on by himself? Will he bring you a toy if you ask him to? How about a specific toy? Does he pick up his toys and put them back in the toy bin?

Honestly, I'd be teaching him how to do all those things and then fill his day with things like that. So he feels like he has a job at home, too. Just as an example, here's what Ranger does every day (he loves having his 'jobs'):
- We wake up and he puts his collar on. I hold the collar out (either at his height or up in the air so he has to jump) and he puts his head through it.
- We go get the paper and he carries it from the mailbox to the kitchen until I take it.
- We go for a walk, but he has to go get his leash and my shoes before we go.
- I wait at the door and he has to remember to sit before the door opens. (No reminders from me since he knows what to do, though sometimes it takes him awhile to remember but that just means he's thinking).
- I step outside and wait for him to make eye contact and hold it, and then we go for a walk.
- On the walk, I make him jump over every bus bench, climb over any boulders, slow my pace down until i'm walking toe-to-heel or almost jogging and he has to match my pace. He sits everytime I cross the street. He has to jump up and paw at the cross walk buttons.

Basically, he does all that before he even gets his breakfast. When he gets fed, he's expected to sit at the back door until i release him and then he runs to 'his spot' to get fed. Then he cleans up his toys, helps me clean up by bringing me magazines or books I ask for.

You can make the most random activities a job for your dog. Ranger's favourite job is helping put the patio cushions away at night. He runs and grabs the cushions off the chairs and brings them to me and I drop them in the bin. When he's done, he gets a cookie. When I clean the kitchen, I leave the cupboard doors open and ask ranger to close them. Done. He loves it. He closes doors on his own now, too. If I go upstairs, he carries whatever it is I want him to carry. Rolls of paper towel, magazines, whatever.

I highly suggest you think up some jobs for JJ to do. A smart, high energy dog NEEDS expectations and jobs. They HAVE to work. Have you thought about researching field training for JJ, too? A high-energy dog can chase a ball for hours but a super smart high energy dogs needs the expectations of a proper retrieval. Sitting at your side, waiting for your release, retrieving it, bringing it back, sitting, and then you taking it. Those expectations are what JJ needs, in my opinion.

Also, how much off leash time does he get? I'm all for controlled leash walking and making them think on walks, but I think off-leash time at a place not in a backyard is also crucial for high energy dogs. Even better if you could make it off leash activity as some sort of job, like field retrieving or gopher hunting (not shooting gophers with guns, but letting JJ chase em down and try to dig them out).


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## tomw (Jul 9, 2012)

JDK said:


> Care to explain how you've reacted to certain situations and how they played a part in reinforcing the bad behavior? As I said before, I'm eager to learn!


Sure. One of the things that I was doing wrong that the behaviorist pointed out was that I was rewarding bad behavior. Here are a few examples of what I was doing wrong. (1) When Lacie jumps up on me, I would still pet her and rub her back and let her lick my face, while she was standing on her hind legs jumping up.....yet, I say that I don't want her jumping up. I should have ignored her and acted like a tree...and AVOID EYE CONTACT..do not look at her until she settles down and either sits or lies down. Then acknowledge her and give her a treat. (2) Mouthing. I allow Lacie to mouth me but say to her "Gentle...Gentle" She does then go easy and lightens up her bite strength. But, if I don't want mouthing or biting, I should not allow any mouthing at all..period. (3) When my wife and I eat, when Lacie barks and whines, I would give her some food. Even though she had already been fed. She should have been ignored or been trained to lie down in a designated area. (4) When lacie attempts to mouth or worse, bits and pulls on my clothes, I would still stay in her presence after she released my clothes. I should have walked away from her. Then come back to her after a minute or two. (Also, note that the emphasis is on me walking away from her..not me putting her in a different setting. She needs to know that I will leave her if she acts this way. Moving her to a different setting for time out does not make that point as strongly as leaving her where she is and me walking away.) These are just a few things that I recall from my session the other day. I am glad that I hired an actual behaviorist rather than just a dog trainer. The behaviorist observed my interaction with Lacie for over two hours, took notes, and then we had a meeting to discuss what she saw and how "I" needed to be trained...not Lacie...but how I had to be trained to reinforce good behavior while helping to bring bad behavior to extinction. I obviously have much to learn. She also is a firm believer in clicker training. One of my tasks for this week is to click the clicker immediately before I give Lacie a treat. The goal is to have the sound of the clicker become a signal to Lacie that something good is going to happen right now (within a second) because of her good behavior that she is exhibiting. This technique is then applied to all her POSITIVE behavior that I will reinforce. .....like when she lies down and relaxes by the table while I eat, or when she does not pull on the leash and is walking nicely, click and treat, when she does not jump up when she greets someone, click and treat. I learned all this in my session earlier this week. I am working to put it into practice, which means that I am changing MY behavior and responses to Lacie, so that I can modify and change her behavior. Lacie's behavioral progress is connected to this interaction and exchange.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Ranger said:


> I've read through this thread and a few things pop into my mind.
> 
> 1. I think JJ is a very smart dog. It's been pointed out he's collar-smart now...so is my dog. I routinely walk him in a prong, a martingale, and sometimes a harness. Each 'device' is used for a different purpose and he's figured that out. I have no doubt JJ has or will figure it out, too. If 'prong' to him means work, then keep it up. Make him heel at your side, sit when you stop, do left box turns, etc. to keep him thinking and working. Put the harness on for when you want to go to the river or something 'fun'.
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks for that.

1 - You're right, JJ is an extremely smart dog. It surprises me some times just how smart he is and how quick he's able to pick certain things up. What you explained about using the prong from "work" and the harness for "fun" is basically what we do. Majority of the time, when the prong collar goes on, there's very little talking being done between JJ and I. Instead we use body language, hand signals and eye contact. We stop at every street we cross and he sits and waits. We do random figure eights and walk around in circles. We constantly change direction and pace, something speed walking and another times walking as if we're 90 years old, dragging our feet and all. We make him work, and from what we can see, he appears to love it and gets a lot out of it both physically and mentally. Our "fun" walks with the harness are one the ways we reward him for his hard work, usually take him somewhere special like to the park or to the river or some huge state park none of us have ever been too before, all of us exploring it together for our first time. I think a mix between work and play makes for a happy and well-balanced dog.

2 - My girlfriend and I like the idea of getting a JJ a backpack, but we never did so cause we weren't sure how to go about introducing it to him. My girlfriend got the bright idea one time to get JJ a raincoat and putting it on him was a disaster. He rolled all over the floor and kept trying to rub up against the couch to try and get it off. Even when we eventually got outside, he rolled all over the ground trying to get it off his back. After that, we weren't sure if he would take to wearing a backpack. Do you have any good pointers on how I can introduce it to him? I understand what you're saying about giving him a job and how wearing a backpack could make him feel as if he's working and has a purpose to serve and a job to do.

3 - I would like to do agility training, as well as other things like dock diving, but I haven't signed JJ up for anything of the sorts cause of his bad behavior around new people. We've been to several training classes and even though JJ passed them all, controlling him in the classes was somewhat of an issue. Sitting 5ft away from another person with another dog wasn't easy. All he wanted to do was play and would try and lunge for them. When the trainers took the leash to try and use him for demonstrations, he would jump all over them, bite them (playfully but hard) and pull their clothes. After awhile, I figured bringing him to group classes wasn't helping our problems and that possibly us putting him in that position all the time where he couldn't handle himself and acted out due to his level of excitement, was only making things worse. Does that make sense? We haven't been to a class in months, and the way he walks and acts in crowds is a lot different now, so I don't know, maybe he would be able to control himself a little better now compared to in the past. You just hate being the guy there that's causing an issue and making everybody else's dog on edge, ya know?

4 - I'll try and teach more things aside from the basics. Gotta admit, I get bored of doing the basics myself after 10 minutes. Everything I've taught him so far he's learned in a matter of an hour or two, so like you said, teaching him things is rather easy - aside from how to greet people correctly. I don't regularly clicker train but I did so when teaching him how to "hold" something. I watched a couple videos of how others were teaching their dogs to hold an object and they were all using a clicker, so I figured I'd give it a try. I "charged the clinker" one day, just clicking and rewarding throughout the day, and by day 2, when he knew the idea of the clicker, I started teaching him how to hold something. I haven't used the clicker for anything else, but I have to say I'm pretty interested in it and would like to learn more about it and how to use it properly when it comes to teaching other behaviors.

For a retriever, JJ isn't much of a retriever. I know you have to teach them and I've been trying, but he's not much for bringing anything back. He'll chase it down and pick it up if he wants to, and if he does, he usually runs half way back and drops it or lays down with it, or runs right past you. I'm sure a good field trainer could solve that though.

Aside from going out in our fenced in yard, or over to a friends house to play with their dog in their yard, or going to some tennis court that's fenced in, JJ doesn't go off-leash anywhere that's not completely closed in. Reason being, he has the attention span of a fruit fly and can't be trusted to stick close or come back. His recall is about 95% but that's not to say it would work if he saw a stranger or a deer running through the woods, or even a leaf blowing in the wind (yea, that's all it takes sometimes to get JJ excited). There's a lot of leash law in our own, now that everybody obeys it. We use to take JJ to the dog park, but have since stopped. He use to get picked up on all the time. What I mean by that is that 5-6-7 dogs would all run over to him at the same time, and JJ would drop to the ground and get in a submissive position. When he does that, they take advantage of him by starting to nip his ears and lays, or even roll him over onto his back. He never stood up for himself and would whimper and run to me or the closest person he could get to and sit in between their legs. Every time we went, it was the same routine. JJ ended up getting attacked, seriously this time and not just playfully, and that was the final time we left. There was a pitbull there that took full of advantage of JJ and as soon as he saw him drop to the submissive position, the pitbull jumped on his back and grabbed JJ by neck, to the point where he yelped. I quickly broke it up by grabbing the pitbull by the back legs and picking them straight up, causing him to release his grip around JJ's neck. The owner caught up by them and we split the dogs up and took them to separate sides of the park and it was no sooner than a few seconds before the pitbull bolted for JJ again and went after his neck. After that we left and never went back. On top of that, a few weeks later we were walking down our street with JJ and one of the dogs that lives on our road bolted out of the front door of the house and bit JJ in the neck, viciously. No wounds, but enough to cause him to yelp. JJ is now somewhat frightened by other dogs barking at him, which he wasn't before all of that happened. He's also "on guard" whenever we walk by the house where the dog bolted out at him. He's not scared of dogs and loves to play with them, but if they bark at him - it could be something as small as a hot dog - he gets nervous. There's been times when another dog on the other side of the road barks at him and he literally jumps into me as I'm walking, almost knocking me over. Then as we continue down the road, he keeps looking back as if he's going, "oh my god, is he coming for me?".

I think I can get into gopher hunting, or anything that's competition based really. I wasn't a jock, but I was big into sports when I was younger and played everything from soccer to basketball. I was and still am very competitive. I enjoy the excitement of a good competition and want to get JJ involved in competitions since I think it would be fun for both him and I. Watching him chase gophers sounds like it could be something fun to watch and cheer him on. No idea where the hell they do anything like that around me though. First time I'm ever hearing of it. Gonna have to look into that.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

I mentioned this in one of my other posts but would like to touch on it again with maybe some more detail and see if if makes sense to anybody.

I was once told by a well-known trainer who had some face time with JJ once before that "it's not that he wants to bite, he has to bite in order to calm himself down". I didn't believe it at first and just took it as some BS excuse for why he bites. It slowly began to make sense to me though after closely watching JJ and take notes on when he bites and what happens after he bites. If he nipped a stranger in town when meeting them, whether it be nipping their hand or the sleeve of their shirt, he would clam down within a couple seconds and not put his mouth anywhere near the person again. If we can't interrupting the behavior and the person kept stepping back every time they felt teeth, JJ never calmed down, no matter how many times you tried or how long you tried to wait it out. Then in regards to my mom and how he use to nip at her when she came home from work and how he now grabs a toy to chomp down on instead when she walks through the door, as if it's almost like he knows he can't control his bite and better get something in his mouth before he gets himself in trouble.

Does that make sense to anybody or just sound like a bunch of BS? Could it actually be that biting down on something is, in a way, calming him down? I'd like to know what some of you think about that.

I've tried to stick things in his mouth when meeting people, but since he's focused on them, he won't take it from me, or will just drop it. I'm hoping after we work on the "hold" command some more, we'll be able to use it when meeting people and he'll be able to hold a tennis ball or something in his mouth to stop himself from biting them.


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## geomana (Oct 15, 2011)

Yes, I think that makes sense. 

I've noticed with my golden when someone comes into the house and she is verrry excited she runs to get a ball or anything to put in her mouth before greeting them. Its like she knows shes excited and needs to have something in her mouth to calm herself down or to make sure she doesnt use her mouth around them.



You appear


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## geomana (Oct 15, 2011)

I'm sure you probably tried this already because you appear to be VERY dedicated,determined with lots of love for your guy.

But the only thing that I found that helped with the greeting was to stand still with the dog on a leash having the dog sit and if someone approaches and the dog gets up or acts excited have the person STOP moving towards the dog. The person is the TREAT. The dog then realizes it wants the person and will sit. 

It could take a long time like 2 weeks before the dog can remain sitting but eventually it worked for us.

Good luck.
Take care.


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## dezymond (May 3, 2012)

Makes perfect sense. It's his way of relieving any anxiety, which is better than him eliminating every time, wouldn't you agree?

It may seem odd, but maybe if you keep a ball on hand and start it off by giving it to the stranger to hand to him? Could be another option, but a "hold" command would work, just might take more work.


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## Trailman (Sep 15, 2012)

Tired dog usually better behaved dog. Lots of exercise helps.


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## Tucker's mommy (Nov 9, 2011)

Very interesting observations as to the WHY behind the nipping. Might explain our Tucker , too. Some great suggestions here - I love the "hold" command - I'm working on that with our Tucker, but we have a long way to go.


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

Absolutely! When someone came to the house or even when we came home Jorgee would always run and grab a toy to greet people. I always thought it was because we did the put a toy in her mouth instead of letting her bite on us as a puppy.

When my husband would rough house with her or our son she would do the same thing, get a toy in her mouth. My nephews dog does the same thing when he is playing tickle with his little girl, their dog, who plays with their daughter like a kid, ALWAYS get a toy and tries to get in the middle of it, like he doesn't really like him playing rough (tickle) with her.


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## caligal (Jul 28, 2010)

Wow! Just read 16 pages!!! I have to say your pup could be my golden's twin! That said, he is 3 1/2 now and the crazy/play-biting/attack mode just seemed to vanish as he matured. I was so obsessed w/ his bad behaviors and how to fix them that I wasn't rewarding good behaviors, like lying quietly on the floor. I was a afraid to disturb the peace and maybe jinx an awesome moment. 

Ranger helped us with her great suggestions of giving jobs when I asked for help here. We had him get the paper and clean up toys to keep him busy. 

The way we worked him when guests came over, was to tell him to get his rope. I would have him sit next to me (sometimes on a leash) and have the guest quickly sit down on our couch. Then I would give the command, give ----- the rope.". Or the person would say bring me the rope. A quick tug hello would ensue and then I'd say, "bring it," and we would finish off with drop it and a treat. I know it's a lot, but it worked! Had a sign on door- if you don't want to play, go away. 

For the "out of nowhere full-force biting demon mode" we gave our selves timeouts. If Davis began a wild biting episode, we would stand up, say very firmly, "NO!" and then put ourselves in another room. Come back out and then try it again. Freaking exhausting, but also worked. 
My son could make a very startling high pitch yelp that would also stop an episode. A trainer told us that is how siblings alert each other when hurt by another. Yelp did not work for me. 

We rescued our dog, and I really had no idea what I was getting into. I was so determined to "fix" behaviors that I think we did too many things at once. Exercise, play, and small training sessions became his routine. Tug just worked because he was so mouthy. 

One last thing, we found a good doggie daycamp that assessed dogs for temperament and grouped them together accordingly. This saved MY life..... Some relief for a day...yes!!! Like sending a wild kindergartener off to school. Gave me a break and got him to socialize. He was always getting picked on and mounted at the dog park. 

After about 10 daycamp sessions, he knew what to do at the dog park and wasn't getting picked on anymore. 

I wish you luck, and think you are awesome to stick with training. I remember crying and thinking things would never get better. It was a slow, gradual process. We had multiple nipping/play biting episodes daily, then weekly, then monthly. Now, I can't remember the last one. 

He does still try to jump up and kiss strangers, but never little kids. My beastie-boy probably behaves better than my son now. Don't give up hope!!


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

caligal said:


> Wow! Just read 16 pages!!! I have to say your pup could be my golden's twin! That said, he is 3 1/2 now and the crazy/play-biting/attack mode just seemed to vanish as he matured. I was so obsessed w/ his bad behaviors and how to fix them that I wasn't rewarding good behaviors, like lying quietly on the floor. I was a afraid to disturb the peace and maybe jinx an awesome moment.
> 
> Ranger helped us with her great suggestions of giving jobs when I asked for help here. We had him get the paper and clean up toys to keep him busy.
> 
> ...


As someone else who is going through the jumping, snapping, biting, etc. behavior I love reading success stories. I am at the point now where no blood has been drawn for over a month and I have fewer bruises this month than last month. She is still horrible with my husband, but he is not good on firm. He goes from pushover to fed up and no time inbetween so it's up to me. She is 10 months and I see a glimmer of hope that maybe by 1.5 years she will be a pretty good dog. Good luck to us all.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

How's everything going with JJ??

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Just a quick update here.

JJ recently had a vet appointment to get updated with his shots, and while there I talked to the vet about doing a thyroid panel. When I brought it up, she looked at me as if I was out of my mind. She says JJ shows no signs of having a thyroid issue and is one of the best looking and healthiest Golden's she's seen, and believes he is just unruly, based on what we've told her and what she's seen herself. She said doing thyroid tests is the new "trend" and that she doesn't want us to waste our money. I have trust in this lady (shes been dealing with our ferrets for years) and I know she's looking out for us and JJ and believe that if she truly thought a thyroid panel was necessary and something to do, she would do it. 

Before leaving, she gave me the name of a Veterinarian Behaviorist who's a Diplomate for the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists. I'm waiting to here back from her to set up a consultation.


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## samchu_mammy (Jun 20, 2008)

Hey there, i just found this thread, and want to tell you that you are not alone!:wave:

The over excitement, the nipping... oh boy!:doh:

I've went thru a lot of things like you did, training, going to class, any possible solutions products... you name it!

I read many books, articles, and going to forums for all these time... tried as much method out there as possible.

As Sam aged, situation seems a bit better, yet, I still want to say, unsolved, unfortunately. 

Sam gets very excited when he goes to the park and see his friends and 4-leg friends each weekend, and he'll dash over to the human, whine, jump and go nuts:bowl: then he'll finish greeting and come back to us for the ball fetching. Also, whoever gets into our house, jump and kiss, knocking on the tummy is a way of him greeting.

Here's a few things we found kinda work:
- Mental exercise, kong, buster cube, wobbler, these type of treat dispenser will keep them busy and use their mind when at home; also, hide the treats around the house, and have him find it!

- treats, we keep different kinds of treats around the house to re-enforce his good behavior, different behavior gets different kinds of treat

- jumping on leash, if he jumps on you during a walk or when people approach, step right on the leash! Sam used to take his frustration on us by jumping and tearing our clothes, but stepping on the leash thing worked for us. Keep him on the ground for a bit, until he's less hyper, then keep going, don't tell him he's a good boy, he was not!

- the mighty naughty destroying your house behavior, I know how it feels that you have to keep an eye on him all time, went thru the same thing here!! We've learned from our trainer that use a name-calling game for this, just call his name, and give him great amount of reward if he comes back. in our case, we used food tube that filled with his favor food: mixture of dog can food, banana, yogurt, peanut butter! and keep feed him 30 seconds! (watch for the daily food amount if you try to this!)

Good luck and hang in there! JJ is a handsome boy, and you'll not regard to give him all your love!


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

samchu_mammy said:


> Hey there, i just found this thread, and want to tell you that you are not alone!:wave:
> 
> The over excitement, the nipping... oh boy!:doh:
> 
> ...


Thanks for your suggestions. :wavey:


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Back with a few updates...

Last weekend we met with a Veterinary Behaviorist that was recommended to us by our vet. At $280 an hour, she wasn't at all cheap. The visit set us back $420.

Basically she told us that JJ has "issues" and that he's "not a normal dog". She believes that he may suffer from "hyperactivity disorder" and suggests that we put him on a Prozac trial.

She came to this conclusion after explaining to her in detail JJ's behavior and monitoring him for 90 minutes. She said one of the clear signs that JJ suffers from "hyperactivity disorder", aside from what we explained to her happens at home, is that he wasn't at all able to clam down during our 90 minute session. He went from laying on the floor whimpering to trying to jump in my lap to trying to get at her (as in greet, not attack). There was hardly a period where he was just laying down quietly. She said "any normal dog" would of realized after 10-15 minutes that nobody's going anywhere and everybody's just sitting around and would eventually lay down quietly. JJ didn't do that at all.

Along with wanting to put him on Prozac, she gave us a "treatment plan", which, honestly, I'm not very fond of since most of what she suggested is things we've already been trying. The treatment plan wasn't discussed during our session. She emailed it to us after the fact, so I wasn't able to sit there and tell her that her suggestions have already been applied and are being applied daily and that they haven't improved his behavior.

Her treatment plan goes as follows...

--------------------------------------------------

*Diagnosis / Problem List:*
Anxiety based behavior—attention seeking behavior, social anxiety


*Treatment Plan: * 

1.	Avoid corrections in emotional contexts. Think about using a distraction followed with a learned cue. 

2.	Be proactive. If you miss your chance, say good boy, don’t scold, and use a treat to get JJ focused. Then you can ask for a sit, ask for some fun tricks, so he does not become more aroused. Once all is calm, fasten the leash so you have better control.

3.	Before Jennifer enters the door, JJ should have a plan designed by Joe. Choices: crate so Joe and Jennifer can interact first with JJ invited later, leash and sit stay but no greeting, meet outside and go for a walk or play game. 

4.	Before Jennifer enters a room, JJ should be restrained on leash, asked to down stay and should earn great treats from Joe for following the stay.

5.	When you need a break, either JJ should be in crate, or he can have a great bone that will engage him. 

6.	When Jennifer is home alone or Joe is not in the area, then she should have a plan. If you see JJ coming, have treat ready and call him, ask for sit, reward, then follow up with game, down stay , heel along with me, or bone or crate. 

7.	End pet and play sessions with “all done”. Follow up with a calm behavior (bone, down stay). 

8.	Practice stay / go to bed. Require a sit before he gets attention. 

9.	A head collar will improve control. 

10.	Consider medication (Prozac) to reduce anxiety and improve attention. 


JJ may suffer from hyperactivity disorder. Based on initial response to behavior modification, a medication trial may be indicated.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Personally, I don't like the idea of medicating my dog, especially after it was mentioned that putting a dog on prozac can have several side effects, the major one being aggression. The last thing I want is to end up with a bigger problem than I already have, or end up with a dog that's a walking zombie.

I think I'm going to seek a second opinion and see if there are other medications or herbal remedies, or other techniques that could be applied.

Those who have been following along, what do you think about all this?


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

We have many of the same issues as you do. Tayla NEVER just calmly lays down on the floor for a nap. It is always enforced crate time that she just conks out. We have not seen a veterinarian behaviorist but have a vet that practices regular and Chinese medicine. Tayla gets regular acupuncture and is on an herb called Zhen Xin San. It has helped a little on her focus. Tayla is what in Chinese medicine is referred to as a fire dog. Always "on", very reactive, runs hot, more prone to skin issues, etc. we work a lot on impulse control and helping her with the fact that life seems to frustrate her and she doesn't have a lot of confidence. Are things getting better? Yes, maybe 25% better than a few months ago. Will they continue to get better? I hope so. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

JDK said:


> Back with a few updates...
> 
> Last weekend we met with a Veterinary Behaviorist that was recommended to us by our vet. At $280 an hour, she wasn't at all cheap. The visit set us back $420.
> 
> ...


Any other comments about all this


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Though the behaviorist did not tell you what your were hoping to hear, what she said does make sense. I would not advocate for using drugs (as a first choice) for the reasons you state - the side effects can be real bad, but there are other options. A trial run with a Dog Appeasing Pheromones (DAP) collar and or diffuser can do no harm. It mimics the calming pheromones that a mom dog produces shortly after having a litter, and it calms the pups. Rescue Remedy can help to reduce anxiety and calm the dog. A dog in a state of anxiety or stress can not learn, the channels to learn are blocked/over ridden by the anxiety. An anxious or stressed dog can not learn, calming the dog opens the door to learning.
A change in diet may also help, a diet that is too high (for the dog)in simple carbohydrates (from plant sources)which are quickly turned to sugar (energy) can have an impact on a dog's behavior.
Behavior modification takes time and patience, and repetition, sometimes months of repetition, there is no 'quick fix'. I understand your frustration, heart ache and concern for JJ, it is tough having a dog with 'behavior problems'. I have a dog and people reactive dog, have worked with him for a year and a half, and he is not 'there' yet, but I will not give up. The biggest breakthroughs did not happen until I learned to work with the dog I have, accept him for who he is, love him for who he is, and work towards who I know he can be --one day at a time.


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## jimla (Oct 9, 2008)

Charliethree said:


> I have a dog and people reactive dog, have worked with him for a year and a half, and he is not 'there' yet, but I will not give up. The biggest breakthroughs did not happen until I learned to work with the dog I have, accept him for who he is, love him for who he is, and work towards who I know he can be --one day at a time.


Thank you for your post. It was helpful to me working with Roxy's dog reactivity.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Others have made good suggestions about alternatives to Prozac that may cause less side effects (DAP, Rescue Remedy, diet change). What I would do is look into each of them and get an idea of how long it's suggested that these alternatives take to have an effect. Perhaps a dog whose diet is changed may take a few days or even weeks to get the excess sugars under control and break out of that peak and valley cycle that goes with a high carb diet. I don't know anything about either DAP or RR but I know some medications and herbal supplements supposedly take a certain amount of time to build up to a therapeutic rescue. Once you have an idea about how long to allow for these things to take effect, you will be able to set a rough timeline to determine whether they are effective and you reduce the risk of giving up on something too soon (or beating your head against the wall longer than you have to with something that isn't helping). If it were me, I would probably combine diet change with either DAP or RR and see how things go for a while. If one doesn't work, you could always try the other. 

Although many of the behavior mod recommendations are things you have already tried and that failed to make significant change in JJ's behavior, consider the fact that adding either a natural remedy or a medication in addition to those things may be a game changer. Whether it's Prozac or one of the alternatives, I think the main point is that consistent control of his behavior (especially in the beginning) will need to be incorporated as well. The habits will still be there even if the nervous energy that has been driving them is not, so you have to hit it on both fronts. 

I totally missed your updated last week, so glad you decided to give it a bump. Good luck with whatever you choose!

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Some children need medicine to be able to function. Most children that get meds for ADHD do not though - it's only a small percentage that NEED them and with them, they can live a much happier and productive life. I wonder with dogs, can it be the same way? A small percentage NEED medication to deal with their issues other than therapy and behavior modification.

I think the money you spent on the behaviorist was money well spent. Number one: You have a diagnosis. HUGE. You can do a lot of research on what seems to be doggy ADHD and it gives you true direction to move in that will be beneficial in the end. Also, there are a few treatments out there. Yes, try the herbal remedies first and move your way up the ladder. Do not think that if you put your dog on a med that he truly needs that he will become a "zombie" or attacking machine. It's just like a kid who truly needs for example, ritalin vrs a kid who didn't really need it. The kid who needed it is a lot calmer and can focus and isn't anxious anymore. The kid who didn't need it is jumpy, wired, and over anxious. Dogs with the same issue, one would think, would be the same way. Medicine is not a necessary evil -sometimes it's necessary good. Another good thing about these meds is they are in and out of a body system with no lingering effects so you can try it for a week, and when you stop giving the meds - they leave no footprint.

So if I were you, I wouldn't throw that money away. I would do everything in that treatment plan she suggests. Make sure you are anal and very focused about always do what the treatment plan says - do not follow some days and not others, no behavior mod system is going to work that way. Try the holistic first as far as the meds but if they aren't helping after a few weeks, do NOT be afraid to work up to what the behavoirist suggested. If your dog truly needs this to correct a neurological imbalance, then he needs it. You paid 240 dollars for experienced advice- in the end, make sure that you listen to it.

Talk to your vet about the medicine thing and see what she thinks. She will be able to educate you on the meds, the side effects, and her opinion on whether or not to start him on them.

PS You see it says he MAY need them if this behavior modification plan doesn't work. So give this a good college try for a month or so and see what happens before putting him on any treatments.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Have you ever spoken to JJ's breeder about his behavior? What were JJ's "mom" & "dad" like? Are any of his siblings like this?

Totally agree with momtomax & Jersey's Mom--the addition of medication to a strict behavior modification plan may be just what your boy needs. In my limited experience, DAP & rescue remedy had limited impact on "normal" dogs in stressful situations, I can't imagine these being the golden ticket for your boy but if you're opposed to meds, it may be worth at least trying before using prozac as a last resort.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

FWIW, I had a crazy out of control Golden (the one covered in mud in the photo below). I say "had" because she's now a pretty awesome dog. Somewhere between 2 and 3 years old, it was like a light switch switched on and she went from Marley-crazy to a sweet, calm, good dog.

If nothing else, maybe JJ will just grow up in another year.


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## quilter (Sep 12, 2011)

I love numbered lists. I'm a tech writer by day, so also can't resist the request for feedback.

_1. Avoid corrections in emotional contexts..._
I think she means "don't whack him when you're mad." Seems OK to me.

_2. Be proactive..._
Reasonable in any situation. Though the exact description was hard to follow. So not too useful.

_3. Before Jennifer enters the door, JJ should have a plan designed by Joe. _Absolutely. In very specific situations, I've been able to teach Casper very specific behaviors. For example, when I sit down to put on my shoes, he backs up, lays down, and waits for his treat. So much easier than tug of war/keep away over each sock and shoe.

_4. Before Jennifer enters a room, JJ should be restrained on leash..._
At first this seemed like a repeat of #3. This could get old quick if Jennifer enters a room often.

_5. When you need a break, either JJ should be in crate, or he can have a great bone that will engage him. 
_Makes sense. In the olden days, we'd put the dog in the backyard. 

_6. When Jennifer is home alone or Joe is not in the area, then she should have a plan. If you see JJ coming..._
Well, this certainly sounds ominous. In our house, when I let Casper out of the kitchen and he bounds up the stairs, I yell "Incoming!" That's my plan. Not to make light of the situation, but if it really is bad, then yes, I'd have a plan. Even if it's throw a treat in the hall and shut the door.

_7. End pet and play sessions with “all done”. Follow up with a calm behavior (bone, down stay). _
Makes sense, but isn't petting already a calm behavior? 

_8. Practice stay / go to bed. Require a sit before he gets attention. _
Three separate things. All reasonable, but nothing groundbreaking.

_9. A head collar will improve control. 
_Yes. 

_10. Consider medication (Prozac) to reduce anxiety and improve attention. _
Can't speak to this one.


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## cawowine830 (Nov 6, 2012)

JJ is one pretty boy! I love the color of his fur  
My pup's a field golden with darker fur color.. 

I'm sorry you're going through this with JJ, it might be because he's still young? 
Doggie boot camps are expensive, I agree.. I think there's a training thing going on that you can sign up at Petsmart, maybe you can look into that instead?


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

I would encourage you to at least give the Prozac (or generic) a try. There seems to still be a stigma associated with behavioral medications which may not be justified.

Used properly, the medication may be "quality of" life saving. Prozac has been used for dogs for over 10 years now. I had a German Shepherd dog who was on it. There were *no side effects* and it resulted in him having a better quality of life. His level of agitation prior to the Prozac was really heartbreaking. We consulted with Dr. Nicholas Dodman at Tuft's and this was Dr. Dodman's recommendation. Prozac was a new treatment for dogs at the time so I was scared of the side effects as well. But I am glad I listened with an open mind because it helped.

It didn't change my Sam from a nervous, hyperactive boy into a gentle laid-back boy but it helped. In fact, the change was quite subtle and happened over time. 

As long as you work with your vet, I would encourage you to at least try it. After a trial time, you will know if it is helping or not. You may even be able to scale back the dosage down the road as well. (Do not stop it all at once though, it needs to be tapered off - but you vet will tell you about that.)

I hope it helps to know someone that used it with good results and no side effects. Definitely no aggression from it. It's not like a narcotic either that wil make JJ sleepy. The change in my dog was very subtle. He still had his very alert personality - just some of the agitation was less.

It can't be easy to be trapped in their world without mental relief. I would give it a try. Wishing you an JJ the best!


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Charliethree said:


> Though the behaviorist did not tell you what your were hoping to hear, what she said does make sense. I would not advocate for using drugs (as a first choice) for the reasons you state - the side effects can be real bad, but there are other options. A trial run with a Dog Appeasing Pheromones (DAP) collar and or diffuser can do no harm. It mimics the calming pheromones that a mom dog produces shortly after having a litter, and it calms the pups. Rescue Remedy can help to reduce anxiety and calm the dog. A dog in a state of anxiety or stress can not learn, the channels to learn are blocked/over ridden by the anxiety. An anxious or stressed dog can not learn, calming the dog opens the door to learning.
> A change in diet may also help, a diet that is too high (for the dog)in simple carbohydrates (from plant sources)which are quickly turned to sugar (energy) can have an impact on a dog's behavior.
> Behavior modification takes time and patience, and repetition, sometimes months of repetition, there is no 'quick fix'. I understand your frustration, heart ache and concern for JJ, it is tough having a dog with 'behavior problems'. I have a dog and people reactive dog, have worked with him for a year and a half, and he is not 'there' yet, but I will not give up. The biggest breakthroughs did not happen until I learned to work with the dog I have, accept him for who he is, love him for who he is, and work towards who I know he can be --one day at a time.


Thanks for the response and your insight. We picked up a diffuser last week to release Dog Appeasing Pheromones and it doesn't appear to have had any effect on JJ. I plugged it in when he was out for a walk with my girlfriend and as soon as they came back, JJ picked up on the smell and sniffed it out until he tracked down where it was plugged in. It's been about 6-7 days with the diffuser and he doesn't seem anymore relaxed. Considering trying the collar next, although I question how well it will work with all his hair since I read it has to be firm against the skin.

Switching his diet could be risky considering we had a lot of issues with soft stool and diarrhea when JJ was younger. It took months and several brands of food to find one that didn't give him any problems (Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach). If I could afford it, I would try a raw diet, but at this point, I can't.


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## JDK (Jul 30, 2011)

Gonna get back to the rest of you that responded as well, just moving a little slow here tonight.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

I have the diffuser in our bedroom where the dogs sleep at night and are confined when we are out - to hopefully achieve maximum effect. I didn't have any preconceived ideas of what to expect, I just waited. In hindsight, within a few days, there was 'something' different, nothing 'huge'. It was at least 2 weeks before I could truly say there was any real change, and it was more of a change of 'mood' - they started to 'slow down' and were less quick to respond to the normal triggers. Over a month, the changes have been more noticable, the behaviors are still there, they will still respond to their triggers, but it is with less intensity and they are more easily redirected from them. It was more of a cummulative effect.


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## samchu_mammy (Jun 20, 2008)

I am not really a fan of giving meds to my dog, and if you can afford, it might not be a bad idea to check with another behaviorist for JJ's situation. 

I always though Sam wouldn't be calm down for his entire life, now he's approaching 5, it seems like he's calming down a bit quicker. 

JJ is still young, and golden are always hyper and human oriented, just keep up the training, and when you are frustrated, walk away from him, go out the door, and deep breath~ your emotion affect him too.

Keep the updates coming, and good luck again!!


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## Doug (Jul 17, 2010)

You can try a short click of the dust buster without touching him to convey your displeasure about being jumped on and bitten playfully. Most dogs hate the vaccum cleaner. 

You could also briefly show him a toy that he dislikes (a smelly plastic one) that also has euchalyptus oil on it to teach him boundaries when he causes unintentional pain. They hate the smell. 

Is there anything else that is harmless that he dislikes in particular that might make him think twice about what he is doing at the time? Like blowing up a balloon? just make sure that he does not eat it!

If you try these things use a command like "ENOUGH!" Make sure that you give him praise the instant he stops like "Nice pat, gooood booooy" to reinforce the calm behaviour.

I am glad that he is getting plenty of exercise. Exposure and age will give him the experience to settle.

Good luck!


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

Tayla hates the compressed air canisters you get for cleaning keyboards. We don't spray her, but I hide the can and spray it. She immediately stops what she's doing. Broke her if biting in a couple days. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

I assume this is still going on, although the OP hasn't posted for a bit.

However, I really don't think punishment is going to be the best way for JJ to learn to control himself. Impulse control for an active dog like JJ is very hard, and it's going to be easier to learn it as a really good happy thing to do, rather than learning that the alternative will cause pain/displeasure. It's too much of a temptation to really care too much about pain. You have to provide a more tempting alternative.

I would suggest using something like Sue Ailsby's Leading the Dance program, which teaches your dog with positive training who is the leader of your household, who to respect and where the boundaries are. I'd also use clicker training with JJ. Many of these very determined dogs need mental stimulation and take fantastically well to clicker training as they are determined to succeed and find doing well quite addictive. I'd definitely 



 - this one is from Sue Ailsby's training levels Steps to Success.

I'd try to find a well educated clicker trainer were I you, and work with them getting JJ's impulse control boosted, doing handling techniques, and techniques from _Control Unleashed_, perhaps some Behaviour Adjustment Training (BAT) and other bits and pieces of positive training that I think could make a drastic difference to JJ. Age will likely make a big difference, but you really need to get that mouthing under control. 

Telling JJ a big YES when he doesn't mouth by sticking his favourite treat continually into his mouth, then stopping immediately, turning aside a bit and looking away into the distance (possibly with arms crossed if he'll go for your hands/arms) if he mouths will be a great technique here. Then when he has stopped trying to mouth, instantly tell him yes! then fill him up with treats again. Keep treating every several seconds until mouthing starts again. Slowly over time you increase the time between treats. You can do this while watching tv or anything. At first start in a place with no distractions with top treats, slowly bring down the value of the treats... then a place with a few distractions and back to top treats... and so on. There are so many techniques you can use but this is the very basics of what I would do. Don't just pay him for stopping mouthing, and don't just reward him with praise while he's being good. You have to make being good WAY better than how wondering it is for him to jump/mouth/nip/rip etc. Keep on paying with awesome treats for being good, then become very very boring and unresponsive if he mouths/jumps/rips etc. It needs to be a very big contrast.

Anyway, hope you are still reading your thread and you'll get this. Also hope JJ is improving. He is one gorgeous boy!


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Hey JDK, how's JJ doing? Would love an update... maybe even a new thread to share with us how he's doing since your trip to the behaviorist since I'm hoping he's no longer "a monster." Hope all is well!!

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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