# Linebreeding/Inbreeding - Is this common?



## AshleyR (Sep 4, 2008)

As I was looking over Tessa's Certificate of Pedigree today (a little late, I had misplaced it and don't know why I didn't notice this when we first looked over it) I noticed that she is a product of inbreeding, or as our breeders called it "linebreeding".

I was just wondering how common and safe this practice is? As soon as I noticed that she was an "inbred" I was a little ticked off as we paid $1200 for her, and I had always heard that inbreeding dogs only caused problems. Our breeder assured us that if done properly, linebreeding is safe, and not to worry.

I do still wonder how common this is though. You never know which breeders are just "out there for the buck" and although I had previously thought our breeders were awesome, this makes me a little worried. Should we expect to have problems with her, or is this safe? Her mother was bred with her own father, so Tessa has the same father as her mother does. 

We have a cocker spaniel that is prone to having seizures and we were told by our vet that it was likely because of inbreeding. Now I'm scared that we may have the same problem with Tessa. 

Any information on this would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!


----------



## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

What do you mean? Brother to sister, mother to son, or cousins? 

It's very common. It's why we have beautiful, purebred dogs with a set type and temperament.

Vets love to blame everything in the world on "being inbred" but it's just not true, IMO...


----------



## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Oops, I somehow missed it. You did say it was father daughter breeding. I wouldn't like to see this very often, but it can sometimes IMO be done for good reason in a breeding program. I don't know how common the practice is in Goldens, but it's not all that odd at all in quite a few sighthound breeds.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Sorry but it's not considered a very good idea by geneticists. The reason is that if you have any genetic health issues, inbreeding (or linebreeding) very significantly increases the risk of two recessive genes showing up in the offspring and it becoming a dominant health problem. 
It's especially considered invalid in breeds where the gene pool is huge. It's only an acceptable practice in very rare breeds where the gene pool is so small that it's almost necessary in order to keep the breed going.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

There have been a number of discussions on this subject in the past:

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=30496&highlight=linebreeding

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=26282&highlight=linebreeding

Basically, the success or failure of linebreeding or inbreeding depends on the individual dogs involved. If you are linebreeding on a very healthy, long lived dog or dogs, that breeding is more likely to be deemed successful than an outcross of two unrelated dogs whose ancestors died young.

Linebreeding sets traits, for better or for worse, so it is very important to know the dogs in the pedigree very well.

That said, father-daughter breedings are not high on my list although again, it can depend on the individual dogs.


----------



## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

I would ask who is the judge of what a proper line breeding is? Is this breeder a genetic scientist, or is it just his/her humble opinion? I would not be comfortable with any line breeding, unless there was at least a generation in between.

Line breeding emphasizes bad traits as well as good traits. That is the important thing to keep in mind.


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Hi Ashley
Linebreeding is very common but not normally this tight - father and daughter. However some breeders do on occassion do this. If your breeder has been diligent in record keeping and knows the pedigrees intimately I would not be overly concerned.
Is the breeding planned or an accident?
If the pedigrees are in K9Data and you do not mind sharing can you post a link to it?
Lastly and maybe most importantly if you felt your breeder was "awesome" I would hope you are comfortable enough to discuss it with them and ask them about it. Ask them their resoning behind doing it. If they themselves kept one or more from the litter I would think they did have an idea behind what they did. Unfortunately dogs can have genetic problems whether or not they are closely linebred, there is no sure thing.
Try not to worry too much about it and enjoy your pup. If you find that is not possible, and for some it may not ne, you may want to discuss returning the pup and find another elsewhere. I know very difficult but in the long run it may be easier on you.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I do agree with what Vern says- good and bad will be doubled up on. I am assuming the parents and dogs in question here have clearances and so forth- how about their siblings, etc? All that factors in, too.


----------



## AshleyR (Sep 4, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> Hi Ashley
> Is the breeding planned or an accident?
> If the pedigrees are in K9Data and you do not mind sharing can you post a link to it?
> Lastly and maybe most importantly if you felt your breeder was "awesome" I would hope you are comfortable enough to discuss it with them and ask them about it. Ask them their resoning behind doing it. If they themselves kept one or more from the litter I would think they did have an idea behind what they did.


I spoke to the breeder immediately after noticing this. She said that the breeding was planned and that this is the third time they have bred these two dogs (father and daughter) over the last several years and have had excellent results. Both dogs belong to them (the sire being 10 years old now) and they said they are very confident that the dogs bred are extremely healthy. They actually said they felt more comfortable breeding their own dogs that they know everything about, opposed to using a stud that other breeders may lie about.

What is K9Data? Sorry I'm not familiar with it (haven't been on these boards very long). I'm in Canada and our pup is CKC registered... not sure if maybe that is an American or AKC thing?


----------



## AshleyR (Sep 4, 2008)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I do agree with what Vern says- good and bad will be doubled up on. I am assuming the parents and dogs in question here have clearances and so forth- how about their siblings, etc? All that factors in, too.


Yes we have clearances for both parents. Haven't heard anything about their siblings but the breeders said this is the third time they have bred these two dogs (father and daughter) and they have had excellent results. If they hadn't, they probably wouldn't have bred them a second and third time (I'm guessing?)


----------



## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

You can go on OFA's web site and check out siblings, etc


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

K9Data is a huge database of Goldens. It is at www.k9data.com 
You can go there and enter the parents names and see if they are there already, if not you can "join" - it is free - and enter the pedigrees your self. 
As for OFA if the breeder is Canadian the clearances may be OVC and will not be in OFA's database.
I have to go out for a while but I will check back later.

Take care


----------



## AshleyR (Sep 4, 2008)

Thanks for the info about K9DATA!! I did find our puppy's Mom and Dad on there. Still checking it out, but if anyone wants to see them (and help me understand things a little better) here they are: 

Mom:
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=167316

Dad/Grandpa: 
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=47044


----------



## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

That is a very nice pedigree. NO wonder she is so beautiful (your puppy).


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Pilot is gorgeous. Congratulations on your puppy.


----------



## AshleyR (Sep 4, 2008)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> That is a very nice pedigree. NO wonder she is so beautiful (your puppy).


Thanks for checking it out for me! I should have made myself familiar with this sort of stuff a long time ago.... it's still a little bit confusing for me, but I'm relieved to hear she's a good quality pup! I was a little scared when I found out about her "linebreeding" today.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

While both are lovely and have nice pedigrees, I am very surprised that a father/daughter breeding would be done 3 times. Generally, it would be done once to tighten up on/strengthen something in particular, and then one of the offspring bred back out again, but not simply for a litter in and of itself. I can't see doing 3 repeats anyway - you are limiting yourself too much. It almost sounds like this was done just because they have have 2 breedable dogs. Did they keep any offspring from any of these litters ?


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Ashley, it is what it is. You can't change it. You have a beautiful pup that you obviously love very much, relax and enjoy her! 
I agree with PointGold 100%, but it doesn't change anything about your little one or the feelings you will share with her.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I'm surprised that you didn't know that this was a father/daughter breeding from the start. Didn't the breeder tell you?


----------



## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

This genetic information http://www.k9data.com/coi.asp?ID=237973 would not make me a happy buyer seeing that all the eggs are in one basket (ie. the sire/grand sire). Normally I would look for a COI much lower...like under 10%!


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Hi Again Ashley
Sorry I did not get back to you last night. I agree that the pup's pedigree is very nice but have to admit as Laura stated why repeat this two more times? Looking at the website and K9Data it does not "appear" as though they kept anything from the first two times they did this breeding. My thought would be that the only way a breeder does this type of tight breeding is to keep something for themselves. Even the most experienced breeders will tell you it is a nerve wracking practice as you can double up on both good and bad traits. The breeder does seem to be involved in dogs besides breeding them. According to their website they are members of GRCC, GRCA, CKC, plus some other local clubs - one of which she is president of the club and another where she is an obdeience instructor. I am so sorry that all I can send you is mixed signals about your situation but of course it is much more difficult for you after the fact. My gut says they truly believed in the breeding and had no other motivation in doing in but that is my take on it from afar. And don't beat yourself up, none of us are born "knowing" these things and most of us learn from doing what later may seem like not the best thing. It happens and we learn for the future.
Good luck with your pup and I can't wait to see more photos of your girl.


----------



## AshleyR (Sep 4, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I'm surprised that you didn't know that this was a father/daughter breeding from the start. Didn't the breeder tell you?


Nope. Most of their buyers buy their dogs to show. They are the priciest pups in our area. We decided to get ours from them over the others because they just happened to be the closest to us, and they sounded good. I checked out their website beforehand and called a few of their references, and everything was good, so we went with them. 

I wasn't really informed about the importance of pedigree, etc. I admit, we just wanted the pup for a pet and don't plan to show her or anything, so I didn't do a TON of research before we got her. I knew enough about the breed, but didn't look into the details of her breeding.

I think the breeders knew we were "uninformed" and since we didn't plan to use her to show or anything, they might have thought they didn't need to tell us that kind of information. We did have paperwork in a file that they gave us (3 months ago) that showed her pedigree (they didn't come out and tell us though, so either way we wouldn't have known before we left with our pup). I didn't notice this info in the file until yesterday when I really took a good look over it. :\

I contacted the breeder immediately after noticing this, and she convinced me that it was common and safe and that they have done this a number of times with great results. I shouldn't worry because our pup really is perfect (to me!!) She's better than any dog I've ever had before. I'm sure she'll be okay. I just posted to find out how common this practice was. My breeder told me it was, but I wanted to hear from someone else who I didn't hand $1200 to! :


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

AshleyR said:


> Nope. Most of their buyers buy their dogs to show. They are the priciest pups in our area. We decided to get ours from them over the others because they just happened to be the closest to us, and they sounded good. I checked out their website beforehand and called a few of their references, and everything was good, so we went with them.
> 
> I wasn't really informed about the importance of pedigree, etc. I admit, we just wanted the pup for a pet and don't plan to show her or anything, so I didn't do a TON of research before we got her. I knew enough about the breed, but didn't look into the details of her breeding.
> 
> ...


It is not common, and it is not "okay", unless done for very specific reasons and very, very carefully. First off, when I get an inquiry about a puppy, the sire and dam are pretty much the FIRST thing discussed, I cannot imagine anyone just calling me and saying i want a puppy and not asking about the mother and father. As a breeder, I would never not disclose that I were doing something as "controversial" as an inbreeding, particularly since they can have less than desirable results. . I even explain linebreeding to people who inquire about a pet. 

I am still stymied as to why these people repeated a father/daughter breeding 3 times, without keeping anything to move forward with.


----------



## AshleyR (Sep 4, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> It is not common, and it is not "okay", unless done for very specific reasons and very, very carefully. First off, when I get an inquiry about a puppy, the sire and dam are pretty much the FIRST thing discussed, I cannot imagine anyone just calling me and saying i want a puppy and not asking about the mother and father.
> 
> I am still stymied as to why these people repeated a father/daughter breeding 3 times, without keeping anything to move forward with.


We did ask about the parents, what their temperment was like, if there were any health problems, etc. etc. We didn't actually ask about the details of their pedigree (we asked ABOUT the puppies grandparents, etc. etc. but we didn't ask WHO they were, we just asked for information about their health, etc). We are first time purebread buyers, and I guess we have learned from our mistakes.

The breeders have kept 1 puppy from each litter.


----------



## AshleyR (Sep 4, 2008)

This pup was from an earlier breeding of the same two dogs (father/daughter) that our puppy came from, so would have the same characteristics as our pup:

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=237973

They did not keep her, but it looks like another breeder has her and is using her (that is our breeder in the picture with her).


----------



## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> While both are lovely and have nice pedigrees, I am very surprised that a father/daughter breeding would be done 3 times. Generally, it would be done once to tighten up on/strengthen something in particular, and then one of the offspring bred back out again, but not simply for a litter in and of itself. I can't see doing 3 repeats anyway - you are limiting yourself too much. It almost sounds like this was done just because they have have 2 breedable dogs. Did they keep any offspring from any of these litters ?


I absolutly agree with the above. Not to make any assumtions but 3 breeding using the same sire and dam which, just happens to be a father to daughter..... Just sounds like a good way to save on a stud fee and ALL the things that go along with using a dog owned by another breeder. Generally its very rare for one breeder to have "the right" stud dogs for their bitches. Generally, those that often use their own males to their own bitches are not working very hard to enhance the breed. As, most times there is something better out there. Its just a matter of working a little harder to obtain it. Just something to think about.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ash said:


> I absolutly agree with the above. Not to make any assumtions but 3 breeding using the same sire and dam which, just happens to be a father to daughter..... Just sounds like a good way to save on a stud fee and ALL the things that go along with using a dog owned by another breeder. Generally its very rare for one breeder to have "the right" stud dogs for their bitches. Generally, those that often use their own males to their own bitches are not working very hard to enhance the breed. As, most times there is something better out there. Its just a matter of working a little harder to obtain it. Just something to think about.


When doing an inbreeding like this, it is very risky to repeat the breedings before the offspring from the first are even old enough to have been able to determine what genetic issues may have been brought forward. 
Personally, I would never have done it.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Hope she gives you many years of joy- she really is a beauty. You will know for next time to look very closely, at least.


----------



## Bflori (Aug 12, 2012)

*siblings mating*

I just recieved my new puppys pedigee today and noticed his mom and dad were siblings. when i questioned the breeder he said they ae from differnt litters and he has doe this before. he does it for temperment. hould I be worried?


----------



## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Bflori said:


> I just recieved my new puppys pedigee today and noticed his mom and dad were siblings. when i questioned the breeder he said they ae from differnt litters and he has doe this before. he does it for temperment. hould I be worried?


Full siblings or half sibling? Are they titled and if so what area? How long have they been breeding. What are registered names of the parents? 

Goldens are supposed to have great temperaments- IMO breedings should be based on more thames just that.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Maybe because i come from a small breed (flat coats) where repeat breedings are generally not encouraged period. The goal being to diversify the gene pool the best we can and honestly if the goal is to keep improving the breed then how does constantly repeating improve that. 

I am with Pointgold on this all the way... 3 repeat breedings is just mind boggling to me... how does that help the breed??? 

second for me father to daughter is just to close... and then to not wait to see what you got in the first litter seems a little nuts

but honestly the whole they feel more comfortable using their own dogs part of this also makes no sense to me... the best dog is not always the one ya got. 

I don't like this at all...while I think many folks who aren't breeders don't understand the whole linebreeding inbreeding thing there is just to much about this situation that I don't like. 

just my two cents


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Bflori said:


> I just recieved my new puppys pedigee today and noticed his mom and dad were siblings. when i questioned the breeder he said they ae from differnt litters and he has doe this before. he does it for temperment. hould I be worried?


Nonsense-if they are full brother and sister, it doesn't matter if they are from different breedings, they are still full brother and sister. 

This type of in-breeding can be problematic, as not only will any good traits be set, but so will the negative ones. And to say the breeding was done for temperament is also nonsense-are there no other Goldens with good temperaments out there? Of course there are, but then he might have to pay a stud fee and (gasp!) do clearances!

It's water under the bridge for you now, though, so love your puppy and buy pet insurance (seriously-I strongly recommend it).


----------



## Bflori (Aug 12, 2012)

they are full siblings, they have been breeding over 30 yrs


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

The only reason I could see for a brother/sister breeding is an oops/whoops accidental breeding.


----------



## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Two words hapsburg chin. Inbreeding is not normal or good.


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I would like to see those clearances. For $1200 I am thinking they dont have the proper 4 clearances. Do you have the parents registered names and someone can look them up.

Chloe has a grandparent on both sides the same.


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I think your breeder saying they feel better then using a stud dog is ridiculous. Right there tells me they know nothing about breeding.

It’s over so just love your puppy and learn from it.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Cpc1972 said:


> I would like to see those clearances. For $1200 I am thinking they dont have the proper 4 clearances. Do you have the parents registered names and someone can look them up.
> 
> Chloe has a grandparent on both sides the same.


Since this thread is from about six years ago, I doubt you're going to get any information.


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Swampcollie said:


> Cpc1972 said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to see those clearances. For $1200 I am thinking they dont have the proper 4 clearances. Do you have the parents registered names and someone can look them up.
> ...


Lol. Why was it brought up. I didn’t even notice.


----------

