# Sad/bad news. Need support



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I don't really have any advice, just want to say I'm so sorry you're going through all of this. Sending lots of good wishes and cyber hugs your way.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

I am so very sorry to hear this, my thoughts are with you.

I don't have any words of wisdom or advice to offer, just wanted you to know your'e in my thoughts.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this.
I'd ask for a thyroid panel when you see the vet. Probably a long shot but thyroid issues are known to cause aggression.
Is there a way you can keep them separated? Sort of a crate and rotate routine. When one is loose, keep the other locked up and rotate who is loose.


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

Thanks to both of you. Hugs help. I feel pretty alone. It truly is a nightmare, one that can never be repeated but I don't know how to guarantee it will never happen again without some extreme decisions that I'm not willing to entertain right now. 


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I am so sorry you are going through this.  It must be heartbreaking. I pray you find a resolution.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

She may be sensing his illness and it's causing her to react. It's not much help, but I think you need to keep them separated or you could run the risk of her lashing out at him if he is getting sicker.

The behaviourist is a very good idea and I really encourage you to consult one. I'm really sorry you are having to deal with this problem, I know it's stressful.


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Seems like and Alpha dog will since weakness in the sick dog. Her natural instincts will be to push him out of the pack. I hate using drugs, but may be your only choice, unless you can somehow separate them. I am not a pro by any since, but my opinion as I too had an Alpha dog. Sorry for your pain, Good luck....


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

Sara's crate is one of her triggers with separation anxiety. Usually I'd pop Scout in there but when we put him in the first night of the fight, Sara got crazy anxious and Scout started to rub his face on the door to push out and we can't have it with the staples. We put up a baby gate between rooms but they both spend all their time trying to get it down and I don't want them face to face with a gate between. 

So for now they haven't been left alone but that won't last long term. Although there has never been an incident when they are alone. 




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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

Yes, the ER vet also said that the alpha can sense illness/weakness. His cancer is also on his face. One side now has his surgery scar and the other the wounds from Sara. 

Anyone have any success with Rescue Remedy? We started it today and ironically had a thunderstorm and her reaction to the thunder was less than normal. 


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I'd also suggest a full thyroid panel on Sara. Even a low normal reading on goldens is LOW and needs supplementation ( which is a pill 2x/day.... quite cheap). Low thyroid has been known to cause temperment issues among other things. Just make sure it is the full panel, not just a T4.


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

Just made a note for thyroid panel and not just T4. Would she exhibit any other signs if it were thyroid? 


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

Not necessarily. Some dogs show the full complement of hypothyroid symptoms, some show none. As for the Rescue Remedy, lots of dogs react well and the RR takes the edge off of their anxiety. If Sara's aggressive episodes aren't caused by anxiety, I doubt Rescue Remedy would help. Until you get some professional help, I would keep them in separate rooms. Even if you're monitoring them, you can't keep your eyes on her at all times and it just takes a second for lots of damage to occur. I'm sorry that you're having to deal with this. It's a lot of stress at a time when all you probably want is some peace and time to cuddle Scout....


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

We really don't have a house where they can be easily separated. I'm going to have to keep thinking of something creative. And yes, we just want to enjoy and love Scout these days and especially now. I'm so upset I can't describe it yet I'm trying to stay cool so I don't ratchet up any anxiety in either dog.

Helpful info about thyroid. Good to know. 


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

They say dogs don't feel jealous, but that is what this sounds like, one of my dogs sensed spencer had cancer,by smell I saw her,she backed away from him, I would not leave them together when gone.


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

This spring we took both dogs to an animal communicator (I know not everyone's cup of tea) and the woman did tell us that Sara was jealous of scout and acted out to get attention and thst she was also extremely stressed a out losing her best friend. We'd changed some things around with that info but apparently something is still bugging her. 

I'm not trying to make excuses about separating them but that is a major major Sara trigger and worries me it would create an even worse situation. I think maybe she'll start being leashed. 


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I have used chairs to block off a hallway in the past.
Do you have a room that you can close the door, at least that way when you leave you know they are both safe.
Are there a couple of you home? Maybe keep them both on leashes tethered to a person, that way you have some control and can keep the apart while still being in the same room


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

How elevated were her enzymes? I do think prozac is such a big help for sudden aggression like that around things like passage negotiation.

I am sure she is already on a low protein diet ( like diet Wellness)- that is Tuft's go to first move for in house aggression. 

How about trying the RUFF Love plan from Suzanne Garrett start to finish? 

Is there a way to have her wear a head halter or a soft muzzle so you can relax in the house? 

It sounds like you are very experienced with this, and it also sounds really stressful. 

I think you must separate the dogs for now when you are not actively supervising and reading body language, and work on Sara's down-stay command, other safety commands, and relationship with you.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

We just don't know what really goes on in their minds, how does she act, if he is gone?


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

Actually the area the dogs live in do not have any doors. We keep the dogs on the main floor of the house and the cats have access upstairs where the doors are. The dogs don't go on that half of the house. I will investigate something to put between the kitchen and family room. But it's Sara who would have to be wherever the humans are when home and I literally can't stand the idea of scout being the one on the other side of the gate for however long he has left in this earth. I doubt anything with Sara will be a quick fix. 

I need to sign off for a bit. I'm having a complete breakdown and feel there is no solution. Excuse me while I find a corner of my house with no children or pets so I can have my meltdown without agitating anyone else. 


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Please tell me where yoxu live. I'll investigate a behaviorist for you. You want a highly qualified one--not someone who just uses the term 

I sympathize greatly. I've had a couple instances of this in my house--Tucker has gone after Bella a couple times and Tess once, but it was about food. The fix for that was pretty straightforward. They eat in separate rooms and no one moves around until everyone is done.

But I might be able to help you find someone--just need to know where you live. You can PM me if you want.


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

I don't know what her enzymes where. We learned that at the routine vet visit where we found out that scout had cancer so everything else was kind of a blue that day and the full focus was put on scout.

When Sara is alone without scout she is a basketcase. We've been working on that with her taking her out alone or him put alone because we know the day is coming where she will be alone. It's one of the reasons this is all so hard. So many suggestions from people to re-home her or euthanize but I cannot even fathom the idea of losing them both or taking some drastic measure with her to then also lose scout.

I live in Franklin Indiana. Some others on a holistic site I visit also offered to help me find a behaviorist. Found a man named Tim Franz, although he is not close. But then I leaned that he's $899 for 4 sessions. I suppose I will find a way to pay for whatever Sara needs but scout has cost thousands of dollars this year. Haven't called around yet to any behaviorists but plan to do so this week. 


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

Every prior instance go Sara going after scout involved food or an unfamiliar location. We have changed all food routines, too...with success. The doorway with the most recent incident has scouts food and water just around the corner. Perhaps there is something to that connection.

We have been feeding him more food/treats in his bowl this week isolated from Sara because of his never ending hunger while on the prednisone to treat the hematoma. But, there was no food present when the attack happened.

Ahhhhh...so many potential factors. It's overwhelming. 


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I am sorry, this is a added problem, there must be a answer,as to why she does this.


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

Have you looked into a soft muzzle as Jill suggested? And working on her down stay seems like it would be very helpful as well. I can see you're a very thoughtful person and how hard this must be...hopefully some of these suggestions will help.


Pete & Woody


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

Oops, missed the soft muzzle suggestion. I will look into that and see if I can try some on her. Anything out of the norm for Sara is a struggle for her but I will check one out. 

Also thinking of upping her exercise. We've backed down on long walks this summer because of scout's issues. But I can start some long ones just with Sara and that will also continue our effort to get her more comfy without him. 

I agree there has to be an answer but I don't know how we'll nail any one thing down if its not an obvious physical thing we can treat. Nor can I get a handle on always worrying that she'll strike out again. 


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## ssacres (Sep 29, 2012)

No advice but Sending prayers for all of you. So sorry your going through all this pain.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

One of the side effects of prednisone is sudden aggression. Are you sure it was Sara and not Scout that started the fight?
I would look into the muzzle as suggested.


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

Thanks for the prayers. We could use quite a few of them.

Jennifer, hadn't even thought it could be scout. I'm 95% sure Sara started it as I saw her lunge but not sure if scout gave her what we call the stink eye or a small snaggle tooth snarl I missed. Wouldn't that be something...if it was him! 


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I don't know if it changes anything other than you can maybe blame it on the meds, which are temporary.
I'm sorry there are no easy answers for you.
I totally understand not wanting to rehome/euthanize Sara with Scouts diagnosis. It would be sad to lose both of them.
You sound willing to try just about anything and I applaud that. It's obvious that you love them both so much.


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

Thanks. U do love them so much. Question for anyone: would you consider a re-home or euthanizing a dog who did this once and drew blood? I knows many of you love and care ode your Goldens in the same way I do. I've heard that suggestion so often now that I'm starting to question my own reaction. 

But I also feel like I need people who 'get it'....like people on this forum....to tell me if those extremes should be an immediate consideration in case my judgment is clouded from dealing with so much from scouts cancer diagnosis. 


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

If I were in your situation I would try to manage it. Leashes, muzzles, medication, separation(maybe lock Scout away in a room when no one is home)
Sorry to be blunt but Scout's diagnosis sounds like he isn't expected to be here much longer.
If Scout was involving a healthy dog, it might be a different situation.


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## KathyL (Jul 6, 2011)

Your post is so heartbreaking. I wish I had an answer but unfortunately I don't. I guess I would try very hard to keep them apart since Scout is really vulnerable right now. I'm not a fan of medicating, but if mild sedatives for Sarah will keep Scout safe, I think I would go that route. It would be awful for something to happen to Scout at this time in his life. I hope you are able to come up with a solution to meet the needs of both Scout and Sarah.


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## Jessie'sGirl (Aug 30, 2010)

I would try every possible angle before even considering what others have suggested ( euthanasia) . Put her back on the prozac for awhile to calm things down, try the soft muzzle and try to keep them as separate as possible. Take Sara on outings by herself. If none of these work I would try to find a temporary place for Sara while Scout is still here, one in which you can still see and take her out on a regular basis. I'm sorry you're in this situation, you obviously love them both.


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## gretzky (Dec 1, 2012)

My heart really goes out to you. 

I have never tried it - but what about that thunder shirt thing for anxiety? I don't know if there are specific circumstances here but maybe short periods of wearing would ease Sara's anxiety overall?


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

First of all, I don't think Sara is the alpha. I think she is a very insecure dog who is anxious because of her insecurity. She obviously has never learned bite inhibition or else she would not have done the damage she did. I personally think a full thyroid panel, like Jennifer1 suggested is the first step. Second step is to put lots of structure in Sara's life. She needs to know that someone is in charge so she doesn't feel like she has to be. Most dogs don't want to be in charge, they are like children and need structure to make them feel secure.

Until the vet work is done, I would keep them as separate as possible and protect Scout from her. He is vulnerable and so is she, him physically, her mentally.


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## itried (Jan 6, 2013)

I'm so sorry this is happening to you  I'll send out a prayer to you and a big hug to Scout especially! As a Lupus patient I know how miserable prednisone can make you. (Not sure what effect it has on dogs, but it must not be fun). How about more baby gates? Switch off with someone playing and taking care of each dog so one doesn't feel alone? I also hope Sara is better soon.


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## walter1956 (Feb 15, 2013)

Very sorry for your problem, I have had to deal with a similar problem like this. PM me, if you would like to.


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

Thank you all for the support and reassurance about what we are trying. My head is spinning a bit with lots of options and things to do and look into. I appreciate everyone taking the time to chime in and be helpful. This group is amazing. 


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Okay, I found someone who practices in Indianoplis (and other cities). She seems very well qualified. Her prices are much more reasonable that what you were quoted. I hope this is helpful--I really empathize with your situation. 

certified behaviorist,Indianapolis,Dayton,Cincinnati,welfare


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

the S team said:


> Thanks. U do love them so much. Question for anyone: would you consider a re-home or euthanizing a dog who did this once and drew blood? I knows many of you love and care ode your Goldens in the same way I do. I've heard that suggestion so often now that I'm starting to question my own reaction.
> 
> But I also feel like I need people who 'get it'....like people on this forum....to tell me if those extremes should be an immediate consideration in case my judgment is clouded from dealing with so much from scouts cancer diagnosis.
> 
> ...


Firstly - give yourself some time to think, it is hard to make decisions in 'panic mode', and seek out professional help and guidance so that you can understand what is going on and make informed decisions. Would I consider rehoming or euthanizing a dog for a singe event causing injury? No - though it is a response I would expect to hear from most people. There are lot of factors that can contribute to 'aggressive' responses to people and other dogs, illness, injury, anxiety/stress (including ongoing environmental stress). A complete health check would be my first step, as well a consult with a certified canine behaviorist, (a behaviorist will want a health check done to rule out medical issues) I would also consider a consult with a canine physiotherapist who would be helpful in determining if there are any skeletal issues that may be causing pain. Aside from medications -another option that can help to reduce stress levels in a dog is massage - T-Touch (Tellington Touch) worth checking into. I have had good success in reducing over all anxiety levels in my anxious dogs using Dog Appeasing Pheromones diffusers as well as Rescue Remedy.

My heart goes out to you, this is a tough tough situation to be in. Bless your heart for not giving up on Sara.


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

Thank you so much outwest!! I am calling her tomorrow. Not gonna email in case she charges for that if I ask a question (did you see that on her fees?). But, she looks exactly like what we need and is a price I could manage. 


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

Charliethree...you are right about getting info necessary and not in panic mode. I feel more calm and assured today with our plan of action...much of that because of this forum yesterday.

What is t-touch and what other pheromes do you use besides rescue remedy? I am looking into some essential oils besides RR at the urging of some holistic minded people on a forum I met in handling scouts cancer with holistic things, too. 


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Aw, I just read all through this and my heart goes out to you. I understand the upset and panic you must be feeling. I've not had an identical situation, but a couple similar and it's a hard place to be. It sounds like you have a good plan in place now. I'm especially glad you've got a lead on someone with behaviorist training who is not priced beyond your means. I respect you so much for realizing that she needs this as much as Scout needs his treatment.

Please hang in there, use the management suggestions you've been given. You're going to get through this. I wanted to second whoever told you that the behaviorist is going to want a complete physical and bloodwork. I would schedule that with your vet ASAP, even before you try to speak to the behaviorist. Even if you don't work with her, the one you find is going to need it before they will meet with you.

Please pm me if you need to chat or vent, I really am so sorry you're going through this on top of everything else.
Kristy


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Dog Appeasing Pheromones is sold under the name Adaptil or Comfort zone. It comes in a spray, a diffuser or a collar . It can take some time for it to take affect but it can help. I use the diffuser (much like a plug in air freshener with no odor) in the room where my dogs spend the most time.
T touch - the book Getting into T-touch with Your Dog by Linda Tellington-Jones gives good overview of this type of massage, and explains the techniques and the potential benefits to your dog.


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

I think I'll give the plug-in comforts zone a try, too. It can't hurt. 


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

the S team said:


> Thank you so much outwest!! I am calling her tomorrow. Not gonna email in case she charges for that if I ask a question (did you see that on her fees?). But, she looks exactly like what we need and is a price I could manage.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I hope she can help. I don't know her so you might want to check references. However I did find her on the CAAB website so she is certified. Good luck and keep us posted.,


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

If you do try a muzzle, use a basket muzzle which a dog can pant and drink water through. 

I agree that she sounds insecure rather than alpha and upping the structure in her life would be good. I have also heard of dogs attacking other dogs who are terminally ill. If proazc worked before, I would put her back on it fir the time being.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

After my car got t boned by an idiot who ran a red light and four dogs were in the car, I used the Adaptil spray to comfort my dogs. We also use it here in the exam rooms. If you use an Adaptil collar, it must be tight as it works with friction.


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

Thank you all for your insights and suggestions. Sadly Scout passed away yesterday so we no longer have to worry about Sara being mean to him.

All of her bloodwork came back perfectly normal last week. Since Scout's death was so close to the time of the attack, the vet and behaviorist both agree she was aware the end was near before all of us . 

The behaviorist was supposed to come for a consult tomorrow. We have cancelled it for now. 

It's all so heartbreakingly difficult. Sigh. 


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