# Fish Oil Questions....



## smithfamily (Dec 17, 2012)

We give our 10 y.o. Golden the same fish oil we take, it's the Sundown brand and he takes a 1200mg capsule once or twice a day. We keep them in the freezer and he thinks the capsules are treats. It actually has made a big difference for him as far as joints go, he doesn't really limp when he gets up off the floor any longer. I think that is actually a low dose for dogs, when I started researching it I was surprised to see how high the recommendation is for them. What we are doing seems to be working for him though. The puppy will get one a few times a week, she is 17 weeks old. We also give a spoonful of coconut oil to both dogs a few times a week. 

As for the coat issues, I did want to mention that thyroid function can sometimes affect the coat. It might be a good idea to get some labwork done just to be sure. From what I understand, thyroid problems in older Goldens are fairly common, but they're also pretty easy to treat. Hope you get things figured out for him.


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## smithfamily (Dec 17, 2012)

One other thing I wondered about is Brewer's yeast, some people swear that it helps the coat. We also give it to our dogs. It is also believed to help calm anxious dogs. 

Ask the Vet, Question about Brewers Yeast - By Judith K. Herman DVM, CVH - Downeast Dog News


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

The important omega 3s in fish oil are EPA and DHA. To be therapeutic, they need 300 mg of combined EPA and DHA per 10 lbs of body weight. For our crew that means around 2000 mg of EPA/DHA daily. I use a human form of fish oil (Carlson's Finest Fish oil... a liquid). If using human supps, make sure it doesn't have additives such as vitamin A which can be toxic in large doses.


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## DeeAnn (Dec 3, 2012)

Thank you so much for your suggestions and recommended daily doses. I will give the Brewer's Yeast a try. When we talked with the vet, the first thing I thought of was a Thyroid issue. She thought so also, but then realized he lost a few pounds since his last visit, so she thought that was probably not it. She did say that if he didn't improve in several months or if something else came up that we should test his thyroid at that time.


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> The important omega 3s in fish oil are EPA and DHA. To be therapeutic, they need 300 mg of combined EPA and DHA per 10 lbs of body weight. For our crew that means around 2000 mg of EPA/DHA daily. I use a human form of fish oil (Carlson's Finest Fish oil... a liquid). If using human supps, make sure it doesn't have additives such as vitamin A which can be toxic in large doses.


I give Carlson's too and love it myself! My dogs love the fish oil drizzled over their food in the morning and lick the bottom of their bowls to get every drop!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Sounds like our house!!!

Hypothyroidism is really common in goldens. Our Maggie showed little symptoms... she had her first hot spot, was middle aged, so I had a full panel run by Dr. Dodds. Sure enough, even though her T4 on her annual lab was normal, the full panel showed her low across the board. Her littermate sister, Penny, has always tested normal (so far). Maggie has been on supplementation for around 2 years. Both she and Penny are tested annually. Make sure if you are testing thyroid, that you have a full panel sent to Dr. Dodds of MSU. Also, many vets are not aware that low normal is actually low for a golden and should be supplemented.


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## smithfamily (Dec 17, 2012)

This is the brand of brewer's yeast we give and our dogs love them.

21st Century Brewers Yeast Supplement - Level 1 - Sale - Dog - PetSmart


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

You can give the same to the dogs that you take yourself. I gave my male that for quite a while, then switched all the dogs to a pump bottle salmon oil. Its just much easier to administer when you have different size dogs. I recently switched to Iceland brand oil. It seems very good quality. I buy it off Amazon. I would definitely give the oil to your puppy, and glucosamine condroitin too. Getting the oil daily has made all my dogs' coats gorgeous and glossy.


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

You can give them the same kind you take, the key point about fish oil is the quantity of EPA and DHA, the rest isn't really anything you need. So when looking for Omega 3 caplets try to find the ones that have as much EPA and DHA per serving. The second important thing is that they're molecularly distilled for purity or you may be feeding yourself and your dog a lot of impurities. Depending on how much you can afford to spend the next on the list would be the types that are Pharmaceutical grade...I use Nordic Naturals. The thing with lots of omega 3 products is that usually cheaper products have less EPA and DHA than the more expensive ones so you end up paying the same...

You can also try giving your dog a teaspoon of olive oil to help with the fur. I've fostered a dog with ichthyosis and that helped quite a bit.

Brewers yeast is a bit controversial according to some so you may want to research both sides,


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> The important omega 3s in fish oil are EPA and DHA. To be therapeutic, they need 300 mg of combined EPA and DHA per 10 lbs of body weight. For our crew that means around 2000 mg of EPA/DHA daily. I use a human form of fish oil (Carlson's Finest Fish oil... a liquid). If using human supps, make sure it doesn't have additives such as vitamin A which can be toxic in large doses.


It's true that Vitamin A can be toxic in large doses. However, it is almost impossible to overdose Vitamin A. For example, most of us know that liver is a source of vitamin A. It would take 2/3 of a pound of beef liver per day for 2 months to produce Vitamin A toxicity in an average size golden retriever. And since we are discussing fish oil. It would take 10oz of cod liver oil for 2 months to produce vitamin A toxicity in an average size Golden. Vitamin A toxicity need not be a concern and is an important vitamin that should not be withheld. Also, making sure your dog is not deficient in Vitamin D will help reduce the risk of Vitamin A toxicity. 

Source: 
http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/vitaminA.pdf
(an article that is based on information found in Merck's Veterinary Manual which is the 'bible' on drugs)


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

I doubt your dog's coat issue has anything to do with diet. What you are feeding is perfectly adequate for the average pooch. I wouldn't bother with fish oil to be honest, for both humans and dogs each new study that comes out shows very little therapeutic value. Even in the body fish oil is very volatile and requires extra Vitamin E. It seems everything wrong with dogs these days is because of diet and some supplement will take care of it. If this was caused by the steroid, only time will fix that.

Hair quality is more closely related to protein quality and Omega 6 fats rather than Omega 3 fats. Don't get those two fats out of balance. Canidae is OK food but I would feed a better grade of food rather than add fish oil. The biggest improvements I have seen in coat quality in dogs with issues have come from using the higher grade foods with some corn in them.

You also mentioned thinning, more often than not it is hormonal and if you notice bi-lateral symmetry to the loss of hair or hair loss at the tip of the tail get a panel done. You may want to anyway. Vets do often miss early stage problems.


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

WasChampionFan said:


> I doubt your dog's coat issue has anything to do with diet. What you are feeding is perfectly adequate for the average pooch. I wouldn't bother with fish oil to be honest, for both humans and dogs each new study that comes out shows very little therapeutic value. Even in the body fish oil is very volatile and requires extra Vitamin E. It seams everything wrong with dogs these days is because of diet and some supplement will take care of it. If this was caused by the steroid, only time will fix that.
> 
> Hair quality is more closely related to protein quality and Omega 6 fats rather than Omega 3 fats. Don't get those two fats out of balance. Canidae is OK food but I would feed a better grade of food rather than add fish oil. The biggest improvements I have seen in coat quality in dogs with issues have come from using the higher grade foods with some corn in them.
> 
> You also mentioned thinning, more often than not it is hormonal and if you notice bi-lateral symmetry to the loss of hair or hair loss at the tip of the tail get a panel done. You may want to anyway. Vets do often miss early stage problems.


I agree ruling out health issues first is always a good idea. Research on Omega 3 is out there showing some signs of improvements for some conditions, in my experience it did wonders for my dog's fur and also dogs I fostered. 

I would disagree that O3 would hurt your dog, may do nothing, but other than slight stomach discomfort I would say it's probably the safest and most researched supplement out there. Again, when I say researched - really researched on people, not dogs...

Yes, high quality protein is crucial, that said, most high grade foods these days don't contain corn so I really don't see how the two combine. I'm not going to argue if corn is good or bad, I'd say its nutritional value is limited at best both for people and animals. This area remains largely under-researched which is why many vets and scientists beg and plead the Morris foundation to add nutrition to their study of Golden Retriever longevity...
But if you have had a good experience with corn improving fur, that's something definitely for folks to think about. 

Omega 6 isn't without downsides either, some studies show that too much of it can increase odds for certain diseases and cause inflammatory conditions in people, again little or no studies on dogs...


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

CITIgolden said:


> I agree ruling out health issues first is always a good idea. Research on Omega 3 is out there showing some signs of improvements for some conditions, in my experience it did wonders for my dog's fur and also dogs I fostered.
> 
> I would disagree that O3 would hurt your dog, may do nothing, but other than slight stomach discomfort I would say it's probably the safest and most researched supplement out there. Again, when I say researched - really researched on people, not dogs...
> 
> ...


There are many high grade foods that contain corn. Annamaet Ultra is one, Eagle Power is another. I used Annamaet Ultra for over 15 years on puppies through geriatrics and never saw coat quality like that before. When the trainer I bought Annamaet from retired and moved I switched to Dr. Tim's and I would say it is as good even without the corn, but it is the exception. If you wonder why so many show people use Pro Plan it is because the coat quality is tremendous, same for other nationally available foods like Eukanuba and Bil-Jac. Unfortunately for pet owners the internet is good at spreading information, but most of it is false. Your notion of what is "high-grade" and the value of corn is part of that misinformation. I am not suggesting that bad food can be made better by adding corn, rather that good food can be improved by adding corn. If you have any doubt, look at virtually every performance food on the market from high-priced like Annamaet to low-priced like Pro-Pac Performance and they both have some corn.

As for Omega 6 fats causing inflammation, that might be true on paper at certain levels but none of the foods I see with corn have high levels of Omega 6 fats. That whole thing is an internet boogey man. 

The problem with supplental fish oil is that people think it is a cure-all and it clearly is not. I can't see any benefit to adding fish oil to a food that already has sufficient levels and the right balance. You are just screwing the whole diet up.

And by the way fish oil has been studied on dogs for various maladies and the data and conclusions are not impressive, much like most supplements, 

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-top-ten-pet-supplements-do-they-work/

So what I am saying is that good levels of Omega 3's need to be fed, but along with the right levels of Omega 6, and from where I sit the Omega 6's from corn are the best. 3-5:1 seems to be the best ratio.


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

Well in your experience corn works, in my experience fish and olive oil...

With respect to science and safety, the studies done are not conclusive to efficacy as your article points out. However, the studies on corn safety are relatively concerning in my opinion based on the most recent available toxicology reporting...again I'm not a food safety expert so I do appreciate your opinion and experience, personally ill feed my dogs corn free, i dont believe theres a conspiracy on line to tarnish corn's reputation...and I try to avoid corn products in my own diet to the extent possible, it's amazing how many corn derivatives are out there. But that's not what I advocate anyone should do.

http://www.businessinsider.com/monsantos-roundup-and-resistant-corn-found-to-be-toxic-2012-9

http://research.sustainablefoodtrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Final-Paper.pdf

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/sis5219

I don't want to debate here, you think corn is good, I think fish oil is better and safer and whoever reads this will decide what's best for them. The value of this forum, in my opinion, is sharing of experience not so much scientific debate anyone can google or go to their library to access some proprietary scientific journals if they don't have access at home. 




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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I use Nordic Naturals myself and it's done a world of good for my knees!


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

Science should dictate recommendations not anecdote. People tend to form decisions around how much money is spent on something, not what works and what doesn't. The more you spend, the more you want believe it works. That is just human nature. 

You can believe many things but not much of it may be true. Glucosamine is a great example, complete waste for people and dogs but people believe it helps, so it does.

You posted the link for the French study on GMO corn, which has already been discredited by a number of experts and a number of rather liberal universities. Also, not all pet foods use GMO corn, Annamaet and Eagle don't.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

WasChampionFan said:


> Science should dictate recommendations not anecdote. People tend to form decisions around how much money is spent on something, not what works and what doesn't. The more you spend, the more you want believe it works. That is just human nature.
> 
> You can believe many things but not much of it may be true.


In my case I can *feel* the difference. Went from barely walking to 5 miles a day.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

A great quality fish oil I've found is holistic pet organs fish oil. It's pure Alaskan salmon oil and is very fresh. Male sure that if you get a fish oil it has vitamin e added


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/?term=Omega+3

So now you make your pick which study you wish to believe. Science isn't black and white. When I said there has not been a conclusive study - I meant it - and that's true. Scientists, vets, and animal advocates are begging and pleading with the Morris foundation to add nutrition to the first longevity study on goldens for example...

Studying particular nutrients is extremely complicated and very expensive as you need to set up a baseline and somehow exclude or offset other environmental influences...and then unless you can prove immediate correlation toxicity like in the case of pesticides used in GMO crops you have to observe study subjects for decades and in cases of dogs for generations. That has not been done for nutrition, it's actually not even been done for vaccinations, and thus what you are saying is as anecdotal as much as you believe what I say is anecdotal. 




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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

CITIgolden said:


> Omega 3 - PubMed Mobile
> 
> So now you make your pick which study you wish to believe. Science isn't black and white. When I said there has not been a conclusive study - I meant it - and that's true. *Scientists, vets, and animal advocates are begging and pleading with the Morris foundation to add nutrition to the first longevity study on goldens for example...*
> 
> ...


I believe nutrition was added by Morris. We just completed the first survey and exam for Yogi in the lifetime study and I distinctly recall answering questions regarding the exact food and quantities we feed, treats we give and supplements.


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

Dallas Gold said:


> In my case I can *feel* the difference. Went from barely walking to 5 miles a day.


Same thing omega 3 has helped me, at least I think, the medication I was on following back injury increased my cholesterol through the roof. It would not go down no matter exercise or diet, I refused the meds, I started taking a higher dose of Nordic Naturals and it helped me lower it. Now is this a coincidence?! Perhaps. Maybe after 6 months of high cholesterol my organism decided to lower it, I know I haven't changed anything else but added Omega 3... 

Same thing with my dog, KC's fur was dry, I feed Orijen which is supposedly a high quality food, after adding omega 3 and olive oil to his diet it's shiny and soft. Coincidence?! Again, maybe....enough to make a scientific conclusion - no. But I am not running a study...


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

Dallas Gold said:


> I believe nutrition was added by Morris. We just completed the first survey and exam for Yogi in the lifetime study and I distinctly recall answering questions regarding the exact food and quantities we feed, treats we give and supplements.


That's awesome! Thanks for sharing, I have yet to complete the questionnaire, I managed to negotiate with them to accept the tests first since KC was due for his annual checkup anyway. 


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## dogloverforlife (Feb 17, 2013)

I just started adding the Yummy Chummies fish oil to my dogs food. I rotate every other day with coconut oil.


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## dogloverforlife (Feb 17, 2013)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> The important omega 3s in fish oil are EPA and DHA. To be therapeutic, they need 300 mg of combined EPA and DHA per 10 lbs of body weight. For our crew that means around 2000 mg of EPA/DHA daily. I use a human form of fish oil (Carlson's Finest Fish oil... a liquid). If using human supps, make sure it doesn't have additives such as vitamin A which can be toxic in large doses.


Can you tell me how I would figure that with percentages?
The Grizzly and Yummy Chummies only gives a percentage of what is in the product.


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

dogloverforlife said:


> Can you tell me how I would figure that with percentages?
> The Grizzly and Yummy Chummies only gives a percentage of what is in the product.


What's on the label? Share a link and we can probably figure out.


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## dogloverforlife (Feb 17, 2013)

CITIgolden said:


> What's on the label? Share a link and we can probably figure out.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thanks! !

https://m.petfooddirect.com/s/31740...ct/9745/Arctic-Paws-Yummy-Chummies-Salmon-Oil


https://m.petfooddirect.com/s/31740/ProductDetails?pageUrl=/product/5494/Grizzly-Salmon-Oil-for-Dogs


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Wanted to add a link to an older thread I discovered a while back. Great information and I wish I had seen it before I did hours of research and crunched a lot of numbers. Thought it might save someone some effort to see it now:
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...etc-arthritis-joint-problems.html#post1183429


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

dogloverforlife said:


> Thanks! !
> 
> https://m.petfooddirect.com/s/31740...ct/9745/Arctic-Paws-Yummy-Chummies-Salmon-Oil
> 
> ...


So the way this usually works, although I gotta say their ingredient disclosure is really bad:


% concentration = g/100mL

So for the first product, Paws one an 8oz bottle would have about 21g of DHA or 21000mg, or 210mg per ml, assume one teaspoon is about 3-5ml, so a teaspoon would have between 630-1050mg of DHA.

For EPA their analysis is 6.6%, so there's about 15.8g of EPA or 15800mg in 8oz, or 158mg per ml, thus a teaspoon gives you between 450-800mg

Sorry I've rounded the numbers as I'm typing on my ipad and doing the calcs in my head.

The final measure depends on the concentration, and the assumption I'm using is the baseline, so unless you actually get the exact concentration the calcs may be off a bit but should be directionally accurate. 

You can do the same for the other one. However, keep in mind that in all likelihood whatever food you're feeding has omega 3 already so you don't have to adhere strictly to any recommended dose, I don't think quite frankly there are accurate recommended doses. I know based on some government studies that for cholesterol you are supposed to take between 2-4g of EPA a day...we haven't really gone into the same level of details with dogs.




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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I went back to the Morris Survey and verified that pages 20-42 specifically deal with diet and nutrition. I can't post it here since the form states it is confidential.


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

Dallas Gold said:


> I went back to the Morris Survey and verified that pages 20-42 specifically deal with diet and nutrition. I can't post it here since the form states it is confidential.


I just started working through the questionnaire - it's pretty detailed!


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## Luccagr (Feb 25, 2011)

Hmm on this note, how do you feed fish oil to a dog who doesn't like fish oil? Lucca used to like it when I drizzle on his food but he has taken a dislike towards it now. He shuns the food if there's fish oil on it.


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

Luccagr said:


> Hmm on this note, how do you feed fish oil to a dog who doesn't like fish oil? Lucca used to like it when I drizzle on his food but he has taken a dislike towards it now. He shuns the food if there's fish oil on it.



I give my dogs the whole caplet and they think of it as a treat. There are also some flavored chewable types out there that you could try. That said, if he doesn't like it maybe it causes him some upset stomach and maybe you don't have to give it (I'm just guessing, I don't really know what makes dogs start avoiding certain treats or foods - but I know that when I had KC on metro, pill pockets stopped working after some time, I figured must've been too bitter and he did have stomach issues from metro). Fish oil rarely causes stomach issues, but it can... This is purely my best guess and could be totally off.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Luccagr said:


> Hmm on this note, how do you feed fish oil to a dog who doesn't like fish oil? Lucca used to like it when I drizzle on his food but he has taken a dislike towards it now. He shuns the food if there's fish oil on it.


My oldest golden use to avoid swallowing pills that I place in her kibble. Now, I place a gelcap on top of the kibble. Use a spray bottle to mist the kibble and gelcap. Sprinkle my probiotic, enzymes, and greens powder on top of the gelcap. Spray a little more water and serve. The powder sticks to the gelcap and she swallows whatever I put in there right down.


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