# Sticky  Study on Low Taurine, Grain Free Foods and DCM in Goldens



## puddles everywhere

This has definitely opened my eyes and forced me to look at the indg. list more closely. While we do have peas there are no legumes and as it turns out it's not grain free  It does not contain wheat, corn or soy but does contain Barley grass and Taurine.


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## Tahnee GR

Here's a list of legumes. Peas are legumes

List of Legumes | Ms. Cranky - The Baby Edition


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## puddles everywhere

LOL very true... just that I've been looking at different labels and so many of them contain 5 or 6 different legumes not just the peas 
I was happy to see added iron but still out there reading labels.


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## Melfice

Thanks for the information, and making the thread here! People need to know all the info they can get about the food they feed their animals.

I'm very happy I moved my dogs to a raw diet, but Rusty was on grain free kibble for almost 5 years. I hope the damage will be repaired now that he is on a raw diet


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## hotel4dogs

Thanks for posting this!


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## rooroch

I have been feeding Acana Pacifica (Canadian formula) for 4.5 years and this has got me worried. I read the ingredients and analysis but there is no mention of taurine. I do not know how much of the protein comes from fish or peas, etc. My vet here refuses to do the test as he does not know how to get the results for this. I have tried another clinic with the same reply. I could get a taurine supplement from the uk, they don't sell it here for dogs just small doses for cats. Maybe I should do this. What do you think?


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## Tahnee GR

Here is the link from the letter above, to get taurine tested

Molecular Biosciences: Amino Acid Laboratory

Ugh, forgot you were in France. You might try contacting Dr. Stern to see if he might know how to do the testing in France.


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## Tahnee GR

This is the ingredient list for Acana Wild Atlantic

Whole Mackerel*, Whole Herring*, Whole Redfish*, Silver Hake*, Mackerel Meal, Herring Meal, Whole Green Peas, Red Lentils, Pinto Beans, Pollock Meal, Cod Meal, Catfish Oil, Chickpeas, Green Lentils, Whole Yellow Peas, Herring Oil, Sun-Cured Alfalfa, Yellowtail Flounder*, Natural Fish Flavor, Sunflower Oil, Dried Kelp, Freeze-Dried Cod Liver, Whole Pumpkin*, Whole Butternut Squash*, Kale*, Spinach*, Mustard Greens*, Collard Greens*, Turnip Greens*, Carrots*, *Red Delicious Apples, *Bartlett Pears, Pumpkin Seeds, Sunflower Seeds, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Mixed Tocopherols (Preservative), Chicory Root, Turmeric, Sarsaparilla Root, Althea Root, Rosehips, Juniper Berries, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium Animalis Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Casei Fermentation Product. * Delivered Fresh or Raw.

Bear in mind that whole meats contain a lot of water. There are 6 legumes in the first 15 ingredients. I was told that a rough rule of thumb would be to take those whole meats and move them down 4 slots, to account for the water.

Even if taurine is listed as an ingredient, it may not be available for the dog to use. One owner of two affected dogs said it may be that the plant (legume) proteins bind to the taurine, preventing the dog from using it.


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## cubbysan

I feed Victor, I think it is okay, it does not have wheat, corn, or soy, but it has other grains, they also add taurine - but with everything I have read, I cannot tell. Nobody is giving enough details to what to really look for. If I called customer service, I would not even know what to ask.

Another question, is this just affecting golden retrievers or all breeds? Pretty scary, because some of the brands I have seen listed are always on the best of the best lists.


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## Tahnee GR

I have seen other breeds listed as affected, including an Old English Sheepdog.


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## G-bear

I read that Newfies, Cocker spaniels, Rottweilers and Boxers were also affected by this. Speculation, according to what I saw, is that it is larger breeds. Not sure how a cocker spaniel fits into that though.


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## rooroch

Thanks for posting the ingredients for the Acana. It is the US formula but very similar to the Canadian one as far as peas, etc. are concerned. I will contact Dr. Stern to see what he says.

I feed this food because of Grit's ichthyosis. I tried many others not necessarily grain free but this was the only one which helped reduce the symptoms significantly.


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## hotel4dogs

Some of whose best of the best lists? 



cubbysan said:


> I feed Victor, I think it is okay, it does not have wheat, corn, or soy, but it has other grains, they also add taurine - but with everything I have read, I cannot tell. Nobody is giving enough details to what to really look for. If I called customer service, I would not even know what to ask.
> 
> Another question, is this just affecting golden retrievers or all breeds? Pretty scary, because some of the brands I have seen listed are always on the best of the best lists.


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## AmberSunrise

One item of note for me. I would be very interested to know if the fact the formulations are grain free is more indicative of the problem than the reduction of meat is. I believe some grain-free formulations have meat and do NOT have legumes or soy and so may not have the same issues ...

Feeding primarily raw, I do not think this applies to my dogs -- however I do steer clear of ANY occassional kibble that limits meat and has soy or legumes. In my opinion, protein sources do matter and dogs need protein from meat sources.


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## rooroch

I have been trying to find a new food which has a fish based protein without peas.
This has come up from the uk (I would have to import it).
Fish4dogs Finest sardine 26% protein
26% fresh sardine
23% sweet potato
19% salmon meal
19% pea flour
Does this sound good - not too much pea protein?
I have such trouble trying to work out the protein in the dog food labels
I have found nothing grain free (Grit cannot have grains) which does not have some kind of pea protein. At least this sardine food gives the percentage of pea flour.
I spoke with the company and they do not know anything about taurine and pea protein. They call it a carbohydrate !!


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## Kalhayd

Where do you see the breakdown of where the protein is coming from? Dory's food just started adding peas, it's listed a few down on the list, and further down garbanzo beans are also listed. I can find the total protein(25%), but I can't see which portion is coming from the salmon- which is the first ingredient. 

She needs grain free, chicken free, soy, corn, wheat free.


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## goldenenthusiast

I"ve been feeding my dog a mix of grain-free Taste of the Wild Salmon & Lamb for 2+ years, I looked at the ingredients, and saw "peas" and "garbanzo beans" as the 4th/5th ingredients on the list after the meat, should I be alarmed???

Salmon, ocean fish meal, sweet potatoes, potatoes, peas, canola oil, garbanzo beans, salmon meal, smoked salmon, potato fiber, natural flavor, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, tomatoes, blueberries, raspberries, yucca schidigera extract, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Bifidobacterium animalis fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus reuteri fermentation product, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

Lamb, lamb meal, sweet potatoes, potatoes, peas, egg product, canola oil, roasted lamb, tomato pomace, natural flavor, salmon oil (a source of DHA), salt, choline chloride, mixed tocopherols (a preservative), dried chicory root, taurine, tomatoes, blueberries, raspberries, yucca schidigera extract, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Bifidobacterium animalis fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus reuteri fermentation product, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin D supplement, folic acid.


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## Kalhayd

Our girl is on salmon TOTW and previously it wasn't added. I'm going to ask her vet about taurine supplements if need be as I don't want to switch her food if we can avoid it.


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## goldenenthusiast

Ah ok you have the same kibble! Let us know what your vet says! I don't want to switch either. I tried mixing in a different TOTW flavor once and he stared down at it, looked at me with an expression like, "what is this crap," and walked away.


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## cubbysan

hotel4dogs said:


> Some of whose best of the best lists?


What I meant is the ones that I saw they were having issues with are the ones that are always listed as 5 stars in any list I see, the ones that are always the ones highly recommended when going to the boutique pet food stores. The ones people are paying $90 a bag plus, because they are supposed to be good quality. I do not want to mention them by name because it was people on social media talking about that was the food they were giving their dogs ( it was a couple brands ) and they were tested as having this issue.


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## cubbysan

Sunrise said:


> One item of note for me. I would be very interested to know if the fact the formulations are grain free is more indicative of the problem than the reduction of meat is. I believe some grain-free formulations have meat and do NOT have legumes or soy and so may not have the same issues ...
> 
> Feeding primarily raw, I do not think this applies to my dogs -- however I do steer clear of ANY occassional kibble that limits meat and has soy or legumes. In my opinion, protein sources do matter and dogs need protein from meat sources.


That is my understanding that there is not enough protein in the food for the dogs to get the taurine.


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## hotel4dogs

I was sort of picking on you. There are certain popular websites that rate foods with numbers of stars, based on their own beliefs and agendas, and completely unsubstantiated with any proof or research. Then people regurgitate the information and cite it as gospel truth. It makes me nuts. I find this situation to be yet more proof that one shouldn't pick their dog food based on self-proclaimed internet *experts* or on the advice of pet store employees, many of whom wouldn't know taurine from turpentine.
My vet and I were talking about this, and he said, "Grain free dog food just went from being the biggest marketing scam ever promoted by the dog food industry to becoming a health hazard besides".



cubbysan said:


> What I meant is the ones that I saw they were having issues with are the ones that are always listed as 5 stars in any list I see, the ones that are always the ones highly recommended when going to the boutique pet food stores. The ones people are paying $90 a bag plus, because they are supposed to be good quality. I do not want to mention them by name because it was people on social media talking about that was the food they were giving their dogs ( it was a couple brands ) and they were tested as having this issue.


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## Kalhayd

hotel4dogs said:


> I was sort of picking on you. There are certain popular websites that rate foods with numbers of stars, based on their own beliefs and agendas, and completely unsubstantiated with any proof or research. Then people regurgitate the information and cite it as gospel truth. It makes me nuts. I find this situation to be yet more proof that one shouldn't pick their dog food based on self-proclaimed internet *experts* or on the advice of pet store employees, many of whom wouldn't know taurine from turpentine.
> My vet and I were talking about this, and he said, "Grain free dog food just went from being the biggest marketing scam ever promoted by the dog food industry to becoming a health hazard besides".
> 
> 
> 
> cubbysan said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I meant is the ones that I saw they were having issues with are the ones that are always listed as 5 stars in any list I see, the ones that are always the ones highly recommended when going to the boutique pet food stores. The ones people are paying $90 a bag plus, because they are supposed to be good quality. I do not want to mention them by name because it was people on social media talking about that was the food they were giving their dogs ( it was a couple brands ) and they were tested as having this issue.
Click to expand...

And what does one do if their dog reacts negatively to grain? I don't want her itching incessantly, but I don't want her ill from grain free either. 

Short of going RAW, which scares me that I won't be able to ensure adequate balances of nutrition- what does one do?


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## G-bear

Not to further complicate the issue (and if I am I apologize) but I have noticed a great many treats lately which are grain free also have peas, soybeans, etc. added to them as an ingredient as well. In some cases as the second ingredient. I just took a look at one of the treat bags in my kitchen that I got recently. Not going to say the name but it is one of the five star ones... ingredients as follows: "Rabbit, peas, potatoes, garbanzo beans, flax seed, molasses, dried egg product, citric acid, sweet potatoes, salmon oil..." I am wondering if, in addition to what we are giving them in their bowls every day we should maybe also be looking much more carefully at their treats? Generally I give the dehydrated sweet potatoes and apples that I make and also green beans and string cheese but once in a while I am lazy and buy a bag of treats (and I admit I am really bad and give my coonhound yogurt Fruitables because he is a Fruitable addict) so I guess I am going to have to be much more careful reading the labels on the treats than I have been!


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## solinvictus

There are pre-packaged RAW (just to show one, you can do your research for others that may be easy to get in your area. https://www.darwinspet.com/product/raw-dog-food-ns/ where you can buy different varieties to ensure a balanced diet. 

Pro Plan makes a sensitive skin and stomach kibble. The ingredient page below.
https://www.proplan.com/dogs/produc...rice-formula#ingredientsandguaranteedanalysis 

I would think other companies would also have limited ingredient foods if pro plan won't work for Dory.

Wether we are satisfied with the foods our dogs are eating now it is always good to have an idea what else is out there in case there would ever be a reason to change.


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## murphy1

SO,,,,,if a grain free food lists four or five different types of fish as the first ingredients, will that provide the meat needed to supply enough high quality protein? Natures Varienty Instinct Salmon just changed their formula and it seems pretty good. Anyone have an opinion???


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## Kalhayd

solinvictus said:


> There are pre-packaged RAW (just to show one, you can do your research for others that may be easy to get in your area. https://www.darwinspet.com/product/raw-dog-food-ns/ where you can buy different varieties to ensure a balanced diet.
> 
> Pro Plan makes a sensitive skin and stomach kibble. The ingredient page below.
> https://www.proplan.com/dogs/produc...rice-formula#ingredientsandguaranteedanalysis
> 
> I would think other companies would also have limited ingredient foods if pro plan won't work for Dory.
> 
> Wether we are satisfied with the foods our dogs are eating now it is always good to have an idea what else is out there in case there would ever be a reason to change.


So how do you know how much to feed? The link you provided shows per pound. So if it's 10 pounds, how much total per day? Right now she gets 1.5 cups in the AM and 1 cup in the evening. 

Also, do you need to gradually introduce- like you would for regular kibble? 

We tried purina pro in all varieties and she didn't do well on it. :/


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## Kalhayd

Never mind- the site suggest 10 pounds a week for her.


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## Kalhayd

And we didn't try the sensitive stomach salmon, I believe the one we tried was lamb... so we could try that, too. Ugh. I hate switching her up if she's doing well. :/ this stuff is so hard & scary!


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## Gleepers

Kalhayd said:


> hotel4dogs said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was sort of picking on you. There are certain popular websites that rate foods with numbers of stars, based on their own beliefs and agendas, and completely unsubstantiated with any proof or research. Then people regurgitate the information and cite it as gospel truth. It makes me nuts. I find this situation to be yet more proof that one shouldn't pick their dog food based on self-proclaimed internet *experts* or on the advice of pet store employees, many of whom wouldn't know taurine from turpentine.
> My vet and I were talking about this, and he said, "Grain free dog food just went from being the biggest marketing scam ever promoted by the dog food industry to becoming a health hazard besides".
> 
> 
> 
> cubbysan said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I meant is the ones that I saw they were having issues with are the ones that are always listed as 5 stars in any list I see, the ones that are always the ones highly recommended when going to the boutique pet food stores. The ones people are paying $90 a bag plus, because they are supposed to be good quality. I do not want to mention them by name because it was people on social media talking about that was the food they were giving their dogs ( it was a couple brands ) and they were tested as having this issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And what does one do if their dog reacts negatively to grain? I don't want her itching incessantly, but I don't want her ill from grain free either.
> 
> Short of going RAW, which scares me that I won't be able to ensure adequate balances of nutrition- what does one do?
Click to expand...

Couldn't you just add in some extra meat? Without going all raw. The Nutritionest I follow mentioned that the weight management food I give Teddy was a bit low in protein. I just make sure he gets a side of real meat at dinner. Along with some vej.


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## HiTideGoldens

cubbysan said:


> That is my understanding that there is not enough protein in the food for the dogs to get the taurine.


I don't think that's exactly right. The theory is that dogs are not able to synthesize taurine from the plant proteins. So while the protein is there, the issue is the bioavailability of the taurine from the plant based protein. Foods without the plant based proteins seem to be fine. 

I have several friends whose dogs are impacted by this, and what it seems is that dogs who were routinely eating kibble but the owners supplemented the kibble with meat, organs, eggs, etc. did not come back low. We tested one of mine, as the test is a bit pricey (over $300), and he came back within normal range, but we routinely supplement with meat, etc. Many different brands of food have been implicated in it.... and I know many believe it is a "grain free" issue, but there are some dogs eating foods with grain that have come back low. I will say though, we switched kibble because of this, and are now feeding Eukanuba 28/18.... a food that was honestly not even on my radar a few months ago. The reason we chose it is that I know a few people who were feeding this food and not routinely supplementing with meat/organs and their dogs came back within normal ranges. This is a very scary issue and I'm so glad that Dr. Stern is working toward an answer.


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## cubbysan

HiTideGoldens said:


> I don't think that's exactly right. The theory is that dogs are not able to synthesize taurine from the plant proteins. So while the protein is there, the issue is the bioavailability of the taurine from the plant based protein. Foods without the plant based proteins seem to be fine.
> 
> I have several friends whose dogs are impacted by this, and what it seems is that dogs who were routinely eating kibble but the owners supplemented the kibble with meat, organs, eggs, etc. did not come back low. We tested one of mine, as the test is a bit pricey (over $300), and he came back within normal range, but we routinely supplement with meat, etc. Many different brands of food have been implicated in it.... and I know many believe it is a "grain free" issue, but there are some dogs eating foods with grain that have come back low. I will say though, we switched kibble because of this, and are now feeding Eukanuba 28/18.... a food that was honestly not even on my radar a few months ago. The reason we chose it is that I know a few people who were feeding this food and not routinely supplementing with meat/organs and their dogs came back within normal ranges. This is a very scary issue and I'm so glad that Dr. Stern is working toward an answer.


Wow, I recognized the avatar, but did not recognize the name. It confused me for a while... 

I just went back to some of the original threads I read last month, and they were talking about the peas and other legumes hurting the ability to digest the taurine - or something like that. It is really scary and sounds like the lower quality food might be better. I know so many people now that mix multiple brands together. I used to rotate quite a bit. I have one dog that needs grain free, but in the past year I have found a food that is "Free from Gluten Grains" and that seems to work fine.

A shame the test is so expensive.


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## hotel4dogs

It would depend on what, specifically, allergy tests have shown her to be allergic to. 
My vet would be the first to agree that there are some dogs for whom some grains are a medical problem. But the industry jumped on this and attempted to convince people, frequently successfully, that all dogs should avoid grain. This simply is not true.




Kalhayd said:


> And what does one do if their dog reacts negatively to grain? I don't want her itching incessantly, but I don't want her ill from grain free either.
> 
> Short of going RAW, which scares me that I won't be able to ensure adequate balances of nutrition- what does one do?


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## hotel4dogs

I believe you are right, it goes beyond them not being able to synthesize taurine from vegetable protein. I think I read that legumes actually bind to the meat protein, reducing its bioavailability.



cubbysan said:


> Wow, I recognized the avatar, but did not recognize the name. It confused me for a while...
> 
> I just went back to some of the original threads I read last month, and they were talking about the peas and other legumes hurting the ability to digest the taurine - or something like that. It is really scary and sounds like the lower quality food might be better. I know so many people now that mix multiple brands together. I used to rotate quite a bit. I have one dog that needs grain free, but in the past year I have found a food that is "Free from Gluten Grains" and that seems to work fine.
> 
> A shame the test is so expensive.


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## rooroch

Really interesting reading all your posts - thanks. I still haven't found a new food. I am now trying to find grain free without peas available in France. Not easy. There is TOTW with salmon. But there have been recent reviews to say it smelled different and some dogs got sick eating it. Has anyone had any problems with TOTW?
I understand I could increase the protein by adding more fish myself but fish is full of water so I don't know how much to add per meal to make it worth while.
In any case I am going to stop the Acana since they have now added so much pea etc. recently.


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## rooroch

The TOTW I can get here is Pacific stream and does not mention any pea protein, just fish.


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## rooroch

The TOTW I can get here is Pacific stream and does not mention any pea protein, just fish. Just read the US web site and they mention peas and beans! The French seller's web site does not! I suppose the ingredients have been badly translated. Oh dear.


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## Kalhayd

rooroch said:


> The TOTW I can get here is Pacific stream and does not mention any pea protein, just fish. Just read the US web site and they mention peas and beans! The French seller's web site does not! I suppose the ingredients have been badly translated. Oh dear.


 
The salmon(pacific stream) just started adding this within the last 6-months or so. Prior it did not. I wonder if it is delayed over there, or if they're keeping it as is. There are a lot of people complaining on their site about the added peas- so hopefully, they'll remove them. I have NO idea why prices increase and quality continuously decreases. 


We've been feeding this for over a year when we noticed a reaction to chicken and once removed the issue still didn't go away. We went grain free, and it did. She does have an allergy test backing up our suspicions. Ugh. I hate this. I was pricing those RAW pre-prepared and it'll be around $240.00 a month. I don't know what to do, but I do know I don't want to make fear based decisions so off to research. I am sure Dory would much prefer RAW(even though she gobbles up her TOTW).


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## Titan1

I would love to see "the list" everyone keeps talking about.. I can't find it .. help?


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## danoon58

My daughter is a veterinary cardiologist and I called her yesterday regarding this. Here is what she said:

Dogs get their taurine from animal proteins not vegetable. They have seen the most problems with dogs on predominately vegetable based diets or dogs that have gastrointestinal disease and cannot absorb the taurine from their food.

She also told me that if they have a dog with DCM before they do the blood test to determine if it is caused by low taurine or genetics, they would use a taurine supplement. Apparently excess taurine is excreted in the urine.

I feed Orijen 6 fish and while it has a good number of fish in the list of ingredients preceeding legumes, I was worried because they are listed as whole fish and after the fish is processed and the water is removed, they would then show up lower on the list of ingredients. I also feed Orijen Freeze Dried treats. I have fed Duck, Bison and Beef. The dogs love them and they are just dehydrated meat in small cubes. 

I also asked my regular vet regarding this and was told that there is enough meat in Orijen 6 fish that I do not need to be worried. 

I also sent emails to Orijen asking about Taurine content (and supplementation) in their food and percentages of protein from animal vs. legumes. I'll post what I hear.


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## HiTideGoldens

hotel4dogs said:


> I believe you are right, it goes beyond them not being able to synthesize taurine from vegetable protein. I think I read that legumes actually bind to the meat protein, reducing its bioavailability.


Yes, exactly! That is what I was trying to say but didn't articulate perfectly (it was late).


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## HiTideGoldens

Titan1 said:


> I would love to see "the list" everyone keeps talking about.. I can't find it .. help?


I am keeping a list if you'd like to PM me. I don't want to post it publicly due to possible legal issues with the dog food companies. Sadly some of the companies with foods implicated in this problem are sticking their heads in the sand and not responding well to their customers.


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## Tahnee GR

A group has been formed for in-depth discussion on this issue

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1257656451030324/?fref=nf


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## rooroch

Thanks for the Facebook link. I never use Facebook but I have joined and found it very interesting. Because of comments by one member in particular I have ordered a sack of Farmina grain free fish and orange food. It seems that the pea protein is very small and 90% comes from the fish. I hope they like it. It has to be better than Acana's new formula.


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## hotel4dogs

A few weeks back when this first cropped up I called Purina and asked them what the taurine level is in the Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach, salmon formula. The person who answered the phone knew EXACTLY what I was talking about, put me on hold, came back less than 60 seconds later and said it's .11%, which their nutritionists say is more than adequate for normal, healthy dogs. (If the dogs can't properly assimilate taurine, it's a different issue and you need to work with a vet...).


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## Prism Goldens

Lifes Abundance has no legumes and Eagle Pack is also lacking legumes. Unless my eyes are not working today...


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## Vhuynh2

Is the takeaway from this to avoid foods with legumes?


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## LynnC

So I am not happy as Luna's dog food has peas as the 4th ingredient, the first 3 being fish and with the high water content this is not good (please correct me if I'm wrong) !!! So now I'm trying to find a good quality dog food without legumes. Has anyone heard of Viand lamb and chicken formula?? It looks pretty good and it's less than I'm paying now for her food from Chewy's.


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## Kalhayd

Prism Goldens said:


> Lifes Abundance has no legumes and Eagle Pack is also lacking legumes. Unless my eyes are not working today...


I just looked at these, do they have one without chicken or chicken meal? I couldn't find one with what I found online. Sigh.


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## LynnC

Also appears Natural Balance sweet potato & fish is grain free & no legumes


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## Kalhayd

LynnC said:


> Also appears Natural Balance sweet potato & fish is grain free & no legumes


Awesome! Thanks! I'll check it out!


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## Kalhayd

I looked at that and it's less protein and salmon isn't the first ingredient. So, that's where I become confused. 

I'm going to call her food company and ask which percentage of the protein is coming from her salmon vs the twice listed legumes. I think I'm leaning on just adding some fresh salmon to her kibble based on how much extra her vet recommends.


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## rooroch

Unless your dog was on a diet I think you would have to give a lot per day. I can't get it here but just wanted to have a look at the ingredients. I have read that lamb is the meat with the lowest taurine which is interesting. It seems that game birds have the highest. It would be interesting to see which meats/fish have the most/least taurine.


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## Betsy

Hi HiTide! 

I don't have enough posts to pm you....but could you please pm me with the list that you're keeping? THANKS so much!!


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## Heydear

Hi HiTideGoldens,

I also do not have enough posts to pm you. Could you please pm with a copy of your list. Thank you!


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## Laurie

1.


danoon58 said:


> I also sent emails to Orijen asking about Taurine content (and supplementation) in their food and percentages of protein from animal vs. legumes. I'll post what I hear.


I feed Acana to my dogs. I e-mailed Champion Foods and these are the responses I received:

1. Thank-you for contacting us. With a focus on meat, almost all of the protein in ACANA and ORIJEN is from animal source, over 97% in ORIJEN and ACANA Regionals, over 75% in ACANA Singles, and 70% and up in ACANA Heritage. 

A quick and easy way to determine if plant protein contributes a large amount to the protein content of the diet is to read the ingredient list and see if any amino acids (such as L-lysine and DL-methionine) are synthetically supplemented. These amino acids are supplemented in foods with large vegetable protein contributions (or deficient animal contributions) because plant based proteins are missing many of the amino acids essential for dogs — that’s why you won’t find any synthetic amino acids in any of our foods.

Whenever we make changes to our diets our focus is creating Biologically Appropriate Pet foods from Fresh, Regional Ingredients. We are constantly looking for innovative ways to improve our formulas with better ingredients, that give us an improved glycemic response and ingredients that can be locally sourced and true to what these animals would eat in the wild.

The enhancements we have made to our ORIJEN diets is incorporating more meat ingredients moving from 80% to 85% with 2/3 of the meat ingredients begin delivered fresh or raw and 1/3 dried meat ingredients. The new ORIJEN diets will incorporate more meat ingredients containing 6-10 animal depending on the diet in wholeprey ratios. The top 10 ingredients will be fresh or raw meat ingredients, with these changes the new diets require fewer supplements as the nutrients, vitamins and minerals are coming naturally from the ingredient themselves. There will be less fruits and vegetables at 15% and we have incorporated more variety to better balance the vitamins and minerals. 

The enhancements we have made to our ACANA Regional's is incorporating more meat ingredients overall moving from 60% to 70% with more fresh meat moving 35% to 50% of these ingredients and 50% being the dehydrated meals and oils. 

The benefit is fresh meat is only cooked once through the extrusion process where as meat meals are cooked twice, once to dehydrate and a second time through the extrusion process.

The new ORIJEN and ACANA diets focus on more meat and less fruits & vegetable overall with more variety. If you have any other questions or I can be of further assistance please do write back.

2. The enhancements we have made to our diets are similar for both the US and Canada. The percentages calculated are the final products after being cooked. 

Taurine is not an essential amino acid for dogs (AAFCO, 2017; Waltham pocketbook of essential nutrients 2016).

DCM is a disease of the heart muscle characterized by an enlarged heart that does not function properly. While it may occur in any breed, it is seen more frequently in large breed dogs, specifically Dobermans, Labrador Retrievers and Golden Retrievers. While the cause of DCM in dogs is largely unknown, we do know that genetic anomalies will determine how prone an animal is to DCM. Nutritional deficiencies of taurine or carnitine may contribute to the incidence of DCM. 


Our ORIJEN and ACANA diets are formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO dog food nutrient profiles for all life stages. Cysteine and methionine content are available for taurine production in the dog’s body, and taurine itself is naturally present from the meat ingredients we include in the food. 

A dog with particular health cases may develop taurine deficiency while being on a complete and balanced food. The food can meet all nutritional minimums (including methionine & cysteine) but something within the dog limits/inhibits the efficiency of conversion of precursor amino acids into taurine. Alternatively, the endogenous and higher than normal/average urinary losses of taurine or its precursors all contribute to development of a deficiency (Fascetti et al, 2003). 

These conditions are not normal however, and all life stages foods are not formulated to meet these special needs. 

DCM is a slow progressive disease which requires ongoing treatment once developed. It is evident that in canines, DCM is a largely hereditary condition, but the underlying cause of all cases may not genetic and there are multiple factors at play. 

For clinically normal dogs, with the ability to efficiently convert amino acids into taurine, there is no concern for development of a taurine deficiency. Our foods are not meant to be therapeutic diets for animals with special needs, and are therefore not formulated with alternative nutritional needs in mind.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Thanks for sharing that. I do want to point out, however, that several of the dogs who were diagnosed (by cardiologists) with taurine deficient DCM were fed Acana foods. 
Just in case someone (who is not on the FB group) is reading this and assumes it means that Acana and Orijen are *safe*.
We cannot legally say whether or not the foods are causing the problem. All we can say is that several dogs who were eating Acana foods were diagnosed with both taurine deficiency and DCM.



Laurie said:


> 1.
> 
> I feed Acana to my dogs. I e-mailed Champion Foods and these are the responses I received:
> 
> 1. Thank-you for contacting us. With a focus on meat, almost all of the protein in ACANA and ORIJEN is from animal source, over 97% in ORIJEN and ACANA Regionals, over 75% in ACANA Singles, and 70% and up in ACANA Heritage.
> 
> A quick and easy way to determine if plant protein contributes a large amount to the protein content of the diet is to read the ingredient list and see if any amino acids (such as L-lysine and DL-methionine) are synthetically supplemented. These amino acids are supplemented in foods with large vegetable protein contributions (or deficient animal contributions) because plant based proteins are missing many of the amino acids essential for dogs — that’s why you won’t find any synthetic amino acids in any of our foods.
> 
> Whenever we make changes to our diets our focus is creating Biologically Appropriate Pet foods from Fresh, Regional Ingredients. We are constantly looking for innovative ways to improve our formulas with better ingredients, that give us an improved glycemic response and ingredients that can be locally sourced and true to what these animals would eat in the wild.
> 
> The enhancements we have made to our ORIJEN diets is incorporating more meat ingredients moving from 80% to 85% with 2/3 of the meat ingredients begin delivered fresh or raw and 1/3 dried meat ingredients. The new ORIJEN diets will incorporate more meat ingredients containing 6-10 animal depending on the diet in wholeprey ratios. The top 10 ingredients will be fresh or raw meat ingredients, with these changes the new diets require fewer supplements as the nutrients, vitamins and minerals are coming naturally from the ingredient themselves. There will be less fruits and vegetables at 15% and we have incorporated more variety to better balance the vitamins and minerals.
> 
> The enhancements we have made to our ACANA Regional's is incorporating more meat ingredients overall moving from 60% to 70% with more fresh meat moving 35% to 50% of these ingredients and 50% being the dehydrated meals and oils.
> 
> The benefit is fresh meat is only cooked once through the extrusion process where as meat meals are cooked twice, once to dehydrate and a second time through the extrusion process.
> 
> The new ORIJEN and ACANA diets focus on more meat and less fruits & vegetable overall with more variety. If you have any other questions or I can be of further assistance please do write back.
> 
> 2. The enhancements we have made to our diets are similar for both the US and Canada. The percentages calculated are the final products after being cooked.
> 
> Taurine is not an essential amino acid for dogs (AAFCO, 2017; Waltham pocketbook of essential nutrients 2016).
> 
> DCM is a disease of the heart muscle characterized by an enlarged heart that does not function properly. While it may occur in any breed, it is seen more frequently in large breed dogs, specifically Dobermans, Labrador Retrievers and Golden Retrievers. While the cause of DCM in dogs is largely unknown, we do know that genetic anomalies will determine how prone an animal is to DCM. Nutritional deficiencies of taurine or carnitine may contribute to the incidence of DCM.
> 
> 
> Our ORIJEN and ACANA diets are formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO dog food nutrient profiles for all life stages. Cysteine and methionine content are available for taurine production in the dog’s body, and taurine itself is naturally present from the meat ingredients we include in the food.
> 
> A dog with particular health cases may develop taurine deficiency while being on a complete and balanced food. The food can meet all nutritional minimums (including methionine & cysteine) but something within the dog limits/inhibits the efficiency of conversion of precursor amino acids into taurine. Alternatively, the endogenous and higher than normal/average urinary losses of taurine or its precursors all contribute to development of a deficiency (Fascetti et al, 2003).
> 
> These conditions are not normal however, and all life stages foods are not formulated to meet these special needs.
> 
> DCM is a slow progressive disease which requires ongoing treatment once developed. It is evident that in canines, DCM is a largely hereditary condition, but the underlying cause of all cases may not genetic and there are multiple factors at play.
> 
> For clinically normal dogs, with the ability to efficiently convert amino acids into taurine, there is no concern for development of a taurine deficiency. Our foods are not meant to be therapeutic diets for animals with special needs, and are therefore not formulated with alternative nutritional needs in mind.


----------



## gold4me

The FB group has incredible information along with Dr. Stern actually posting. I have to say I am not sure how much to believe from any dog food company. Our job is to do as much research and listen to the information the medical experts tells us.


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## goldenenthusiast

Kalhayd said:


> I looked at that and it's less protein and salmon isn't the first ingredient. So, that's where I become confused.
> 
> I'm going to call her food company and ask which percentage of the protein is coming from her salmon vs the twice listed legumes. I think I'm leaning on just adding some fresh salmon to her kibble based on how much extra her vet recommends.


Don't know if you had a chance to call TOTW yet, but I did. The lady on the phone didn't know what I was talking about (I also wasn't sure what to ask), but told me that 88% of the protein in the Salmon formula is derived from animal protein. In the Lamb which I also feed my dog, it's 80%. Lamb is naturally low in taurine so they add it in to the lamb formula to meet a .05% "guaranteed analysis minimum." Then they got their in-house vet on the line and she knew of the UC Davis study but wasn't able to tell me much else.

I usually give my dog some chicken or turkey or egg on top of his kibble anyway so I guess I'll just keep doing that.


----------



## Dogmom77

Totally confused now on food for my dogs. We have been feeding Fromm Surf and Turf and the only legumes I see in it are pea flour and pea protein. I do see they added taurine as well. Here is the list of ingredients. Can anyone tell me if this food is okay or if Fromm has a better one?









Hopefully the picture attached correctly. First time adding a pic. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## hotel4dogs

At this point, even expert cardiologists can't tell you which foods are okay and which are not. For now, they seem to be suggesting staying away from any foods containing peas and/or pea protein, especially in the first 10 ingredients.


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## razor488

So what is the consensus on a good kibble? I am feeding Earthborn Puppy and Peas are the 17th ingredient. He doesn't seem to love it as it takes him a while to decide to eat, but I don't know what I should switch him to? He seems healthy - energetic and nice coat. 

https://www.earthbornholisticpetfood.com/dog-food-formulas/holistic/puppy-vantage


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## hotel4dogs

There is no consensus.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Kalhayd said:


> The salmon(pacific stream) just started adding this within the last 6-months or so. Prior it did not. I wonder if it is delayed over there, or if they're keeping it as is. There are a lot of people complaining on their site about the added peas- so hopefully, they'll remove them. I have NO idea why prices increase and quality continuously decreases.
> 
> 
> We've been feeding this for over a year when we noticed a reaction to chicken and once removed the issue still didn't go away. We went grain free, and it did. She does have an allergy test backing up our suspicions. Ugh. I hate this. I was pricing those RAW pre-prepared and it'll be around $240.00 a month. I don't know what to do, but I do know I don't want to make fear based decisions so off to research. I am sure Dory would much prefer RAW(even though she gobbles up her TOTW).



You may want to price out Allprovide.com I've been very pleased with them and they seem less expensive than many raw prepared. They also had a gently cooked or encourage if needed to lightly cook the raw.


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## cubbysan

I have been following the discussions on FB, and right now there is just so much unknowns. Questions they are having are does the peas or legumes prevent the taurine from being absorbed? Is the taurine being added before being cooked? Are peas such a big part of the ingredient list that not enough meat protein is in the recipe. Is just golden retriever related?

It seems like the one thing many are agreeing on is finding a food company that does tons of research. It appears that there are a couple food companies that have been aware of this issue for years, and have made the necessary changes.

Through the FB page, we also know what the cardiologist has been feeding his dog and will continue feeding his dog. 

I highly recommend anybody that is concerned to join the group.


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## Kalhayd

Penny & Maggie's Mom;7183970 said:


> Kalhayd said:
> 
> 
> 
> The salmon(pacific stream) just started adding this within the last 6-months or so. Prior it did not. I wonder if it is delayed over there, or if they're keeping it as is. There are a lot of people complaining on their site about the added peas- so hopefully, they'll remove them. I have NO idea why prices increase and quality continuously decreases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We've been feeding this for over a year when we noticed a reaction to chicken and once removed the issue still didn't go away. We went grain free, and it did. She does have an allergy test backing up our suspicions. Ugh. I hate this. I was pricing those RAW pre-prepared and it'll be around $240.00 a month. I don't know what to do, but I do know I don't want to make fear based decisions so off to research. I am sure Dory would much prefer RAW(even though she gobbles up her TOTW).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You may want to price out Allprovide.com I've been very pleased with them and they seem less expensive than many raw prepared. They also had a gently cooked or encourage if needed to lightly cook the raw.
Click to expand...


Thank you! If my math is right based on her weight, this is WAY more affordable. Questions would be- do you still slowly introduce, or just go for it? Do they need any additional supplements to stay healthy?

I'm going to order once we get back from vacation.


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## murphy1

OMG, my head is ready to explode! My fathers dog, Jimmy, lived to be 19 on table scraps alone. Yes, he was a small dog and this was back in the 20's but Good Lord, are we getting out of control? As long as it not Purina dog chow and a somewhat high quality food.....are we going crazy.


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## Gldndrmrr

Dogmom77 said:


> Totally confused now on food for my dogs. We have been feeding Fromm Surf and Turf and the only legumes I see in it are pea flour and pea protein. I do see they added taurine as well. Here is the list of ingredients. Can anyone tell me if this food is okay or if Fromm has a better one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully the picture attached correctly. First time adding a pic.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Fromm Gold in the Black Bag has no peas of legumes in the first 10 ingredients. I have my 15 month old on it.


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## Artbuc1

murphy1 said:


> OMG, my head is ready to explode! My fathers dog, Jimmy, lived to be 19 on table scraps alone. Yes, he was a small dog and this was back in the 20's but Good Lord, are we getting out of control? As long as it not Purina dog chow and a somewhat high quality food.....are we going crazy.


No, we already went crazy a few decades ago. Dog food manufacturers have been making millions off I'd owner's egos and insecurities for a long time.


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## Sweet Girl

Artbuc1 said:


> No, we already went crazy a few decades ago. Dog food manufacturers have been making millions off I'd owner's egos and insecurities for a long time.


Amen to that. 

I maintain that the only reason pet food companies started producing grain-free food is because of the anti-carb movement. When humans stopped eating carbs, they decided they were bad for their dogs, too. Or they were convinced by others that they were bad. Not by scientists, or by animal nutritionists. So the pet food industry went to town!

I am old school. I feed a food that has been around for decades, made by a company that has done tons of animal nutrition research, and is fed by many people who compete in various dog sports with their dogs. People around here, where the pet food stores only sell organic, holistic, etc etc., recoil in horror when they hear what my dog eats. But usually, that is after they have raved about her beautiful shiny coat and her fit, athletic body.


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## razor488

What food to you use?


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## gold4me

Interesting article The Importance of Taurine for Dogs and Cats


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## Sweet Girl

razor488 said:


> What food to you use?


Purina Pro Plan. Previously the chicken and rice (not shredded) formula, and currently the Sensitive Skin and Stomach Salmon formula (simply because I wanted to move her to a fish-based food with more Omegas).


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## razor488

Sweet Girl said:


> Purina Pro Plan. Previously the chicken and rice (not shredded) formula, and currently the Sensitive Skin and Stomach Salmon formula (simply because I wanted to move her to a fish-based food with more Omegas).


Thanks. This is what my breeder feeds and she competes.


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## rooroch

To Kalhayd:

I have just received my Farmina order Of GF Fish and Orange. Too soon to see if it will affect Grit's ichthyosis. I found a Farmina sold in the US that has ancestral grains (no wheat), no peas/lentils and no chicken you might like to look at:

Farmina Single Animal Protein Wild Cod & Ancestral Grain. It has very good reviews.


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## Kalhayd

rooroch said:


> To Kalhayd:
> 
> I have just received my Farmina order Of GF Fish and Orange. Too soon to see if it will affect Grit's ichthyosis. I found a Farmina sold in the US that has ancestral grains (no wheat), no peas/lentils and no chicken you might like to look at:
> 
> Farmina Single Animal Protein Wild Cod & Ancestral Grain. It has very good reviews.


Thanks! I'll review ingredients to make sure it's safe for her allergies! Thank you again!!


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## rooroch

Glad you like the idea. I am really pleased with the product up to now. No problem with transition. There are other formulas of Farmina sold in the US so maybe something might work for you. Hope you enjoyed your holiday.


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## PRolla

To: HiTideGoldens - I can not PM you  but would greatly appreciate a copy of your list also. Thank you

"I am keeping a list if you'd like to PM me. I don't want to post it publicly due to possible legal issues with the dog food companies. Sadly some of the companies with foods implicated in this problem are sticking their heads in the sand and not responding well to their customers"


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## Micki125

I feed my golden Fromm Family. Has anyone ever used this company? The do list peas and also the Taurine. They also list the amount of protein in the food. Should dogs even have grain free? I just assumed this was the righ thing to do?


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## murphy1

instinct Salmon

Salmon, Menhaden Fish Meal, Herring Meal, Peas, Canola Oil (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Salmon Meal, Tapioca, Dried Tomato Pomace, Natural Flavor, Salmon Oil, Montmorillonite Clay, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Carrots, Apples, Cranberries, Choline Chloride, Vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin), Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide), Freeze Dried Cod, Dried Bacillus coagulans Fermentation Product, Rosemary Extract.

Anyone have an opinion here? I don't know what's good anymore. Used to use Orijen Six Fish but they've cheaped out too!!


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## rooroch

I don't know anything except what I have read but I don't like Canola Oil. Look it up. The rest of the food looks ok. The Salmon must be fresh as they don't say "meal" so it should go behind the peas in the list as fresh fish is 80% water. At least there are no chick peas or other beans. There is no taurine added but you could always use top ups of raw egg, yogurt, sardines, mackerel, beef heart, etc. to make it a bit higher in meat/fish protein.
This is really a personal choice and lots of reading and studying articles (not Dog Food Advisor) to see what manufacturers say - if we can believe them!!


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## KKaren

rooroch said:


> To Kalhayd:
> 
> I have just received my Farmina order Of GF Fish and Orange. Too soon to see if it will affect Grit's ichthyosis. I found a Farmina sold in the US that has ancestral grains (no wheat), no peas/lentils and no chicken you might like to look at:
> 
> Farmina Single Animal Protein Wild Cod & Ancestral Grain. It has very good reviews.


Hi Rooroch, I was wondering how you like the Farmina so far?

Like everyone, I'm re-evaluating my kibble. Thanks,


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## rooroch

The dogs love it. Much more excited to get it than the Acana - it smells!! So far all good. A bit early to really tell as far as Grit is concerned but they have transitioned well and much less poop!! I also think their breath smells better - in fact doesn't smell at all which is nice. No gas - at least not much. They always had some but it seems much less. I ordered two sizes of kibble to see. The maxi is huge, they eat it but don't crunch and swallow it whole! I keep saying "crunch" while they eat. Sometimes they do but mostly it goes down whole. I will order medium in the future.


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## KKaren

rooroch said:


> The dogs love it. Much more excited to get it than the Acana - it smells!! So far all good. A bit early to really tell as far as Grit is concerned but they have transitioned well and much less poop!! I also think their breath smells better - in fact doesn't smell at all which is nice. No gas - at least not much. They always had some but it seems much less. I ordered two sizes of kibble to see. The maxi is huge, they eat it but don't crunch and swallow it whole! I keep saying "crunch" while they eat. Sometimes they do but mostly it goes down whole. I will order medium in the future.


Thanks so much for the information. I will order a bag to try it here. 

Thanks also to everyone bringing this issue to owner's attention.


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## DbHrzl

I cannot PM you, but would you mind sending me the list? Thank you!


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## GoldensGirl

On the advice of a veterinarian, I have been reading a lot about the role of taurine in the body. From what I see, it plays a major role in the eyes of every animal studied. If your dogs have problems with vision, it might be worthwhile to invest in testing for taurine deficiency.


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## goldenenthusiast

Hello, I had my dog tested and his whole blood taurine level was 233. Normal is 200-350. Do you guys think this level is acceptable or too low? Should I be concerned? He eats a mix of Taste of the Wild salmon and lamb, mostly but not always supplemented with boiled ground chicken/turkey/hard boiled egg.


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## OscarsDad

Thanks to Carolina Mom for suggesting I revisit this thread. I sent an e-mail to Wellness and received the following back:

"Thanks for taking the time to write us here at Wellness Natural Food for Pets. While there have been very isolated reports that grain-free diets, predominately potato-free grain-free diets, can cause a decline in the taurine status in dogs, it’s generally not a protein issue per se. Healthy, normal dogs can make adequate amounts of taurine from methionine and cysteine naturally, but the exact reason for the decline of taurine in grain-free diets is at this point unknown. All of our diets meet all AAFCO nutritional requirements and have fairly high levels of methionine and cysteine and at least 500 mg/kg of taurine which should more than make up for any potential taurine loss."

I would suppose the presence of taurine in their food is helpful...


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## hotel4dogs

Always nice to get a poo-pooing form letter in response. (insert sarcasm emoji).
Several people have posted that reply, or very similar, to their question on FB.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

GoldensGirl said:


> On the advice of a veterinarian, I have been reading a lot about the role of taurine in the body. From what I see, it plays a major role in the eyes of every animal studied. If your dogs have problems with vision, it might be worthwhile to invest in testing for taurine deficiency.


Taurine also strengthens the walls of the heart which obviously is also key for Goldens.


----------



## ameliaz0608

OMG! Where do I begin. I have a 4yr and 7yr. Auggie, my 4yr old was diagnosed with DCM at 2 yrs old. I did alot of research on this disease and brought up Taurine to my cardiologist and she poo pooed me. Stating that was mainly about cats. So I let it go but it still bothered me. I came across info about a research study on DCM, taurine and goldens. It was Dr. Stern. I contacted him last week and enrolled in the study. I just received the taurine results back today. Normal range for plasma is 60-120, Auggie's is 28. Normal range for whole blood should be 200-350. And his is 135. Upsetting but not surprised. To top it off, I feed my boys Acana kibble and Orijen freezed dry. I did ALOT of research and really thought that was one of the best foods out there as far as kibble is concerned. Ingredients are good and they never had a recall, no grain, etc. HELP! I'm ripping my hair out. I am buying a taurine supplement but don't know what to do about their food. I'm afraid of raw, due to salmonella, etc. I also feed them, fresh blueberries, carrots, string beans and number of other supplements. Now I'm reading string beans (legumes?) maybe a problem with vitamin absorption and could this be with all grain free foods? I'm am going nuts!!! Can anyone shed some info on this? Any food recommendations? Thanks


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## Tahnee GR

The next step should be an echo, performed by a cardiologist. You need to work with a cardiologist on this issue, as taurine supplementation will in all likelihood be prescribed. Dr. Stern may be able to help with that.

Did you test your other boy as well? Symptoms are often hidden until the disease is progressing.

Where are you located?

You will want to avoid grain free foods with peas, lentils and legumes in the ingredients. Acana is one of the implicated foods.

Dr. Stern feeds his Goldens Royal Canin Golden Retriever food. Many breeders I know feed ProPlan. Neither have been implicated in this issue. Victor is another popular choice, as is Fromm.

Are you a member of the FB group?


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## murphy1

Brown rice, chicken by-product meal, oat groats, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, wheat, chicken fat, natural flavors, powdered cellulose, dried plain beet pulp, fish oil, wheat gluten, dried tomato pomace, vegetable oil, sodium silico aluminate, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, psyllium seed husk, salt, L-lysine, fructooligosaccharides, sodium tripolyphosphate, taurine, vitamins [DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), inositol, niacin supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), D-calcium pantothenate, biotin, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), riboflavin supplement, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), vitamin A acetate, folic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement], choline chloride, DL-methionine, glucosamine hydrochloride, L-carnitine, monocalcium phosphate, marigold extract (Tagetes erecta L.), trace minerals [zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite, copper proteinate], tea, chondroitin sulfate, rosemary extract, preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid.

Here are the ingredients of Royal Canin Golden retriever dog food. Sounds like garbage to me! Might as well go to the cereal isle in the local supermarket. If a Vet thinks this is a good food, I'd find a new doctor.


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## Tahnee GR

murphy1 said:


> Brown rice, chicken by-product meal, oat groats, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, wheat, chicken fat, natural flavors, powdered cellulose, dried plain beet pulp, fish oil, wheat gluten, dried tomato pomace, vegetable oil, sodium silico aluminate, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, psyllium seed husk, salt, L-lysine, fructooligosaccharides, sodium tripolyphosphate, taurine, vitamins [DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), inositol, niacin supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), D-calcium pantothenate, biotin, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), riboflavin supplement, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), vitamin A acetate, folic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement], choline chloride, DL-methionine, glucosamine hydrochloride, L-carnitine, monocalcium phosphate, marigold extract (Tagetes erecta L.), trace minerals [zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite, copper proteinate], tea, chondroitin sulfate, rosemary extract, preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid.
> 
> Here are the ingredients of Royal Canin Golden retriever dog food. Sounds like garbage to me! Might as well go to the cereal isle in the local supermarket. If a Vet thinks this is a good food, I'd find a new doctor.


He’s a veterinary cardiologist who owns wellbred Golden Reyrievers and is leading the taurine deficiency study. I think he knows what he’s talking about. I don’t feed RC but I know many respected breeders of beautiful, healthy dogs who do.


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## ameliaz0608

I do see a cardiologist for 2 years now. And he's had 5 echos since 8 weeks old. My cardiologist is the one that basically said taurine isn't an issue with dogs, it's mainly cats that have this problem. I went off on my own, researched alot and found Dr. Stern and enrolled him in his research program. I am waiting to speak with him today about the results. Yes, I know he feeds his dogs royal canin and I agree with Murphy, that food sounds like garbage. I was very surprised when he told me what he feeds his dog. I would never give my dogs by products and half of the other junk in there. I recently watched a 7 hour docu series -The truth about Pet cancer. All of the vets interviewed state they were never taught about pet nutrition in vet school. The big pet food manufacturers gave them free food and pushed their product and donated billions of dollars to their vet school and that's what they knew about food. 

Anyway, Linda you mention "You will want to avoid grain free foods with peas, lentils and legumes in the ingredients." Where did you get this info? I am trying to find some concrete data on this and cannot find it. Before I switch foods I need to know what I should/shouldn't feed them. I also add string beans to their food. Trying to find out if string beans are legumes. Different website says yes and some say no. I would think this would be a simple answer. 

I have not tested my other dog yet. Trying to get this all resolved. But it could be that Auggie cannot synthesize taurine and Kodi might be ok, I'm hoping!
I am from Philadelphia, PA. I also have to watch because Auggie's always had a poop issue since a puppy and it may just be his digestive system. The breeder gave him annamaet-chicken. He had REALLY soft poops, so I switched him to acana pacifica and still soft. I went with acanca singles (limited ingredient diet). His poop is much better but not 100%. Good poop in the morning and usually the afternoon but the night poop starts out firm and then he walks and poops soft in multiple places. Drives me nuts! Maybe I need to see a canine nutritionist!?!? Linda, how do you know so much about Dr. Stern? Does your dog have DCM?


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## murphy1

Tahnee, I will respectfully disagree about Dr Stern. He may know the "heart" but knows little about nutrition. Firs,t I don't think kibble is the best food for any animal but a good kibble is better than RC. One thing for sure, good ingredients have to make a better food than what is in Royal Canin. It must be a great money maker because the ingredients are as cheap as can be.

Orijen Original Ingredients.............Compare it's a No Brain-er!
Deboned chicken, deboned turkey, yellowtail ﬂounder, whole eggs, whole atlantic mackerel, chicken liver, turkey liver, chicken heart, turkey heart, whole atlantic herring, dehydrated chicken, dehydrated turkey, dehydrated mackerel, dehydrated chicken liver, dehydrated turkey liver, whole green peas, whole navy beans, red lentils, chicken necks, chicken kidney, pinto beans, chickpeas, green lentils, lentil fiber, chicken fat, natural chicken ﬂavor, herring oil, ground chicken bone, chicken cartilage, turkey cartilage, dried kelp, freeze-dried chicken liver, freeze-dried turkey liver, whole pumpkin, whole butternut squash, kale, spinach, mustard greens, collard greens, turnip greens, whole carrots, apples, pears, pumpkin seeds, sunﬂower seeds, zinc proteinate, mixed tocopherols (preservative), chicory root, turmeric, sarsaparilla root, althea root, rosehips, juniper berries, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried biﬁdobacterium animalis fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product.


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## Tahnee GR

murphy1 said:


> Tahnee, I will respectfully disagree about Dr Stern. He may know the "heart" but knows little about nutrition. Firs,t I don't think kibble is the best food for any animal but a good kibble is better than RC. One thing for sure, good ingredients have to make a better food than what is in Royal Canin. It must be a great money maker because the ingredients are as cheap as can be.
> 
> Orijen Original Ingredients.............Compare it's a No Brain-er!
> Deboned chicken, deboned turkey, yellowtail ﬂounder, whole eggs, whole atlantic mackerel, chicken liver, turkey liver, chicken heart, turkey heart, whole atlantic herring, dehydrated chicken, dehydrated turkey, dehydrated mackerel, dehydrated chicken liver, dehydrated turkey liver, whole green peas, whole navy beans, red lentils, chicken necks, chicken kidney, pinto beans, chickpeas, green lentils, lentil fiber, chicken fat, natural chicken ﬂavor, herring oil, ground chicken bone, chicken cartilage, turkey cartilage, dried kelp, freeze-dried chicken liver, freeze-dried turkey liver, whole pumpkin, whole butternut squash, kale, spinach, mustard greens, collard greens, turnip greens, whole carrots, apples, pears, pumpkin seeds, sunﬂower seeds, zinc proteinate, mixed tocopherols (preservative), chicory root, turmeric, sarsaparilla root, althea root, rosehips, juniper berries, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried biﬁdobacterium animalis fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product.


And I will continue to disagree. Many of the meats listed in the food above are whole, so have a lot of water in them. I’m not comfortable with the amount of peas, beans and lentils in this food, given the taurine issue in Goldens. RC and Purina are the ones doing the research and long term feeding trials.


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## Tahnee GR

ameliaz0608 said:


> .........
> Anyway, Linda you mention "You will want to avoid grain free foods with peas, lentils and legumes in the ingredients." Where did you get this info? I am trying to find some concrete data on this and cannot find it. Before I switch foods I need to know what I should/shouldn't feed them. I also add string beans to their food. Trying to find out if string beans are legumes. Different website says yes and some say no. I would think this would be a simple answer...............
> ..........
> I went Linda, how do you know so much about Dr. Stern? Does your dog have DCM?


You should join the Facebook group, which is where most of this info can be found. The study is underway, so there are no “official” results yet. Dr. Stern is still studying the issue, which really came to light fairly recently. Is it the peas, legumes themselves that is the issue, or is it that they interfere with the absorption of taurine in the food or the dog’s ability to make their own taurine? We do not know the exact relationship yet. We have seen dogs improve when moved off the grain free with legumes, so there are anecdotes but anecdotes are not scientific evidence.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1257656451030324/

I am a long time (35+ years) Breeder, exhibitor and owner of Goldens. The health of my dogs is paramount for me. I lost my oldest girl at age 14+ a little less than a year ago.

None of my dogs or puppies have been diagnosed with DCM to date. I feed, and I encourage my puppy buyers to feed, ProPlan.

As a breeder, I try to stay on top of health issues in Goldens, whether it’s minimal vaccination, early spay/neuter or low taurine induced DCM.


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## ameliaz0608

Linda, thanks for the info. No I do not have a facebook account. But it sounds like there is not enough evidence regarding the legumes and Taurine. But I will look into a food without legumes (hard to find!) and supplement Taurine. Still haven't heard back from Dr. Stern, hopefully sometime today.
No offense but I would not feed my dogs proplan or RC. I looked at the ingredients in the grain free formula and there are plenty of legumes in there.
_Beef, chicken meal, *lentil flour*, canola meal, beef fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols, cassava root flour, dried egg product, *pea protein*, brewers dried yeast, *pea starch*, salmon, dried beet pulp, *pea fiber*, natural flavor, glycerin, chicory root inulin, salt, potassium chloride,..._
And for a company that manufacturers Beneful which shouldn't even be on the market. I don't trust them. Actually probably can't trust most of the dog food manufacturers. Aside from the legumes I don't think there is a comparison between those foods and the champion food line. I can't believe this isn't more publicized. It is very difficult for a pet parent to make these decisions. I excluded grains and now have a possible problem with legumes and taurine. It's a nightmare!


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## Tahnee GR

ameliaz0608 said:


> Linda, can you please address where you are getting your info about the legumes? Can you refer me to a website? Also, are you enrolled in Dr. Stern's research study? Is that where you are getting your info from?
> What do you feed your dog?


See my post above yours.


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## murphy1

Meat has to beat out cereal any day! Lets agree to disagree.


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## Maggie'sVoice

For those looking at the ingredient lists of their foods for taurine, in case you're unaware, I believe it's every bag of every brand that anything after salt in the ingredient list can only be a maximum of about 1.7% of the food or less. So if you're looking at taurine that is added, you probably want it somewhat close to salt, not way past it in the list.


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## Maggie'sVoice

murphy1 said:


> Tahnee, I will respectfully disagree about Dr Stern. He may know the "heart" but knows little about nutrition. Firs,t I don't think kibble is the best food for any animal but a good kibble is better than RC. One thing for sure, good ingredients have to make a better food than what is in Royal Canin. It must be a great money maker because the ingredients are as cheap as can be.



Something to think about... It's not just about better ingredients makes a better food. That can be dangerous. You can have a food that "reads" very well and is what you are looking for as far as ingredients are concerned. Things like corn, wheat, soy and now the peas/legumes are what people look to avoid. I've seen foods that read well but aren't necessarily healthy for dogs as they have excesses and/or deficiencies and then have foods that read poorly and people won't feed it but is totally healthy. One such instance was Blue Buffalo wilderness. That food had an excess of vitamin D3 and was damaging dogs livers.

What I mean by this is ingredients are vehicles that deliver nutrients. The point is, as long as the nutrients stays in the min/max range of the Small Animal Nutrition Guide (I know it needs to be updated at this point) then your food is much healthier then a food that reads well but has excesses or deficiencies. The only real way is to get the recommended nutrient profile list from the small animal nutrition guide that states the min/max levels of all the nutrients and ask for the complete guaranteed analysis from whatever companies food and compare. I know that is tedious but it's effective.

That's is just a starting point technically since there are issues with things like the peas/legume issue.


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## murphy1

Maggie I understand your point. My point is pointing out the blatant differences of good ingredients versus cheap ingredients. One is far superior than the other. In my opinion better ingredients have to make a better food. It's common sense.


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy

Tahnee GR said:


> And I will continue to disagree. Many of the meats listed in the food above are whole, so have a lot of water in them. I’m not comfortable with the amount of peas, beans and lentils in this food, given the taurine issue in Goldens. RC and Purina are the ones doing the research and long term feeding trials.


This. Absolutely agree. 

Just because vets don't get a lot of nutrition training doesn't mean they are idiots who know nothing and who don't care about our pets. Vets DO learn to interpret scientific data for themselves. A vet. cardiologist who has become interested in investigating a possible link between certain diets and vitamin deficiency leading to health issues probably knows more about diet than the average bear. Vets also see a LOT of pets with dietary issues. There are a lot of shady, poor quality "research" studies out there. I know that bad vets happen to good people, but I believe that as a whole, most vets are trying to do right by their patients. A good vet isn't afraid to adjust their opinion based on new information (eg, spay/neuter). 

Brands like RC, Purina, and Science diet are the ones who actually develop prescription diets. Meaning they do more research. Are they funding their own research? Probably. Is there an ethical consideration to think about when you consider that they often provide vets-to-be with nutrition information and do their own internal studies? Yes of course. Does that mean that the information they provide and their foods should be discredited? Not necessarily. I find it comforting that they have been around long enough to do long term studies. 

When you think about it, Champion foods (and every other dog food brand) does the same thing, only maybe at the moment they are focusing more on the actual consumers. Every dog food company will tell you their product is best, and invest quite a lot of money into making you believe it. For example, I don't believe Blue Buffalo is the #1 best dog food brand, but I think they are one of the best at marketing. And like it or not, we are all susceptible to it--or at least thats what the iPhone sitting next to me is telling me. "Free-range chicken" sounds a lot more attractive than "chicken," when we think about awful, overcrowded chicken farms, but that doesn't mean that your chicken spent its life running around free in a beautiful alfalfa field on a farm that only has 5 other chickens. In fact, "free-range" just requires an open door to somewhere--no other criteria such as environmental quality, number of birds, or space per bird, amount of time spent outside is required. The door could be open for 5 minutes a day to a gross unclean dirt patch, and the chicken gets sold for 20% higher. 

Its difficult to say what ingredients are actually "bad" these days. Common sense fails us all the time. There's a lot of fascinating research about cognitive bias, how it arises, and its impacts. Medical students and vet students actually get training about how to avoid some of these things--because they can affect your patient care. I'm a fan of Albert Einstein saying “common sense is nothing more than a deposit of prejudices laid down in the mind before you reach eighteen.”

I see this as two sides of the same coin. You can't be suspicious of a certain group of food companies and not be suspicious at about others when they are all vying for your dollars. We should hold everyone to the same, high, standard. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of research funding out there for veterinary medicine.


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## Maggie'sVoice

Murphy1, I guess I'm saying is a food may have superior ingredients but it may or not be a superior food. If assuming just because it's a better quality ingredient list that is a healthier food, that's an assumption that could be dangerous for your dog.

The one thing I would say to this is if going by your statement, I would urge you to look at the AAFCO statement and make sure it says Animal Feed Tests substantiate nutrient profiles from AAFCO... instead of Formulated to meet the requirements from AAFCO. This way you atleast know if they fed the dogs this formula for at least 6 months to make sure there are no issues with it. The Formulated statement means they basically just made it in a lab and stuck it in a bag and let people feed it and see how it goes.


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## Maggie'sVoice

Piper, I do know that Science Diet funds their research through K-State (Kansas), not in house with their own R and D lab.


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## Sweet Girl

I think what people often tend to forget over overlook is that humans and dogs are different species. A list of ingredients that would be healthy and good to a human, may not be for a dog. Yes, you might look at the ingredients for Orijen and think, hey, I'd eat that! But is it the best thing for your dog? I don't necessarily want to eat my dog's kibble, but I know it has been developed through decades of work by animal nutritionists and scientists. It may not look appealing to ME, but it is healthy and balanced for my dog. 

The grain-free craze in dog food happened in conjunction with the carbs-are-bad/Atkins diet craze for humans. Coincidence? Perhaps. But not likely. Dog food marketers saw an opportunity and took it. Carbs are bad for you - so they MUST be bad for your dog, too! You are grain-free, so your dog should be, too. It's just that there is no science to back that up. And now there IS evidence that this diet is harming some dogs.


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## ameliaz0608

I did a lot of research before I decided to feed acana/orijen. I am not sold yet there is a problem with the food. Also, their food depending on the product is at a minimum 50 to 90% meat inclusions. The rest is legumes, vegetables, fruit & botanicals. So it seams there is a small % of legumes once you factor in all the other ingredients. Unfortunately, I didn't know that legumes could be a problem and I have been adding string beans to every meal. So I'm thinking that added big time to the problem. I always heard string beans were a good source of protein and helped keep the weight down. I've been doing this for years and all my previous dogs did not have any problems. Also, I started looking at all the dog food on the dog food advisors list that are 5 stars and everyone of them so far has legumes. So why is everyone picking on acana? Why does this seem to be more of a problem for goldens? If the food was a problem, I would think other breds would have DCM as well. I think it has to do with genes as well. Same thing goes for cancer. Goldens have a higher incidence of cancer than most other breds. My other golden doesn't have this problem and he is feed the same food. I think just like people some dogs can absorb or synthesize a vitamin/amino acid etc more than others. I think no matter what food I feed Auggie, he does not make enough taurine to combat this issue. Which is why I decided to supplement with taurine. When I spoke with Dr. Stern, he said the dogs in the study have been switched to another food and supplemented with taurine and they are doing better. I think he should of supplemented first before switching food so he knows exactly what helped the dog. I talked to Champion pet foods yesterday for at least a half hour and she said they have a team of nutritionists on staff and it takes years to develop the food line, they don't just put anything together. They are aware of the claims about legumes and stand by their products. We don't know if legumes are a problem until the study is completed and enough evidence proves this. But if it is, other food manufacturers will have to change their formulas because most of them have legumes in them. Or we can choose to feed grains and they have another set of problems. ****** if you do and ****** if you don't!


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## murphy1

We could go on and on but as a dog owner with no medical background, I will stick with a dog food with good ingredients. I'll just say go back a few pages and compare Orijen to Royal Canin. Royal Canin is an expensive bag of food, $60.00 with most ingredients being grain and they throw in some chicken by products, low in calorie per cup. Orijen is approx $75.00 for the large bag with top quality ingredients and 450 calories per cup. Expensive yes but cheaper to feed in the long run.


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## jajulie12

I am so confused and a bit uneducated, can someone recommend what brand/type of food I should feed my Golden. Thanks for the help


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## Tahnee GR

jajulie12 said:


> I am so confused and a bit uneducated, can someone recommend what brand/type of food I should feed my Golden. Thanks for the help


Every dog is individual, and what is best for one may not be best for another. I personally feed ProPlan Sport. My dogs have lovely coats, good body condition and muscling, no hot spots or allergies, and good energy. Litters are nice sized and healthy, and longevity is good, being mostly 12+ for my personal dogs.

As was mentioned in a comment above, I prefer to feed a food that is tested via actual feeding trials.

I do not recommend feeding grain free foods with peas, beans, legumes, etc. in them, primarily because of their implication in taurine deficient DCM.


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## ameliaz0608

I agree with you murphy1 ! jajulie12 it is very hard to recommend a dog food. I would advise checking out these sites. https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/, The 2018 List ? Truth about Pet FoodPetsumer Report ? Pet food reviews on over 4,500 cat and dog foods, from pet food consumer advocate Susan Thixton.https://www.planetpaws.ca/
It is a very complicated, time consuming process to pick out dog food. Although, you would think it shouldn't be. Dog food like human food has recalls and problems. When you think you made a good choice, something comes up that effects your choice. I don't think there is any perfect dog food. There is a hard push these days from holistic vets to feed raw. I have concerns about that so I feed freeze-dried and kibble plus added blueberries, carrots, supplements etc. Good Luck!


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## cubbysan

One thing we have to realize is that we cannot compare dog food to food that we eat. By-products gets a bad name, but what does it include hearts, and what do hearts provide in our dog food - TAURINE.

There are now three vet schools that have come forward in saying they are seeing DCM in multiple breeds. They are seeing these dogs are all eating the same brands of dog foods. Without telling the public which dog foods are causing the issues, they have said the foods that are "well researched" are not causing the issues. Unfortunately the expensive boutique dog foods that are four and five star rated, are not well researched and are the ones where dogs are having issues. 

When I had heart clearances done in August, Dr. Stern was just starting his study. I mentioned it to the cardiologist that did my clearances, I believe he is also in research, and he said he had not heard of it, BUT it made so much logical sense. He went with an explanation too.


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## cubbysan

murphy1 said:


> We could go on and on but as a dog owner with no medical background, I will stick with a dog food with good ingredients. I'll just say go back a few pages and compare Orijen to Royal Canin. Royal Canin is an expensive bag of food, $60.00 with most ingredients being grain and they throw in some chicken by products, low in calorie per cup. Orijen is approx $75.00 for the large bag with top quality ingredients and 450 calories per cup. Expensive yes but cheaper to feed in the long run.


One of the problems with Orijen is that they are not being transparent with their percentages of animal protein as compared to plant protein. Many people have contacted them, and they are saying it is proprietary information, while most of the other food companies have it on their bags, websites or will give it to you over the phone.


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## cubbysan

murphy1 said:


> Tahnee, I will respectfully disagree about Dr Stern. He may know the "heart" but knows little about nutrition. Firs,t I don't think kibble is the best food for any animal but a good kibble is better than RC. One thing for sure, good ingredients have to make a better food than what is in Royal Canin. It must be a great money maker because the ingredients are as cheap as can be.
> 
> Orijen Original Ingredients.............Compare it's a No Brain-er!
> Deboned chicken, deboned turkey, yellowtail ﬂounder, whole eggs, whole atlantic mackerel, chicken liver, turkey liver, chicken heart, turkey heart, whole atlantic herring, dehydrated chicken, dehydrated turkey, dehydrated mackerel, dehydrated chicken liver, dehydrated turkey liver, whole green peas, whole navy beans, red lentils, chicken necks, chicken kidney, pinto beans, chickpeas, green lentils, lentil fiber, chicken fat, natural chicken ﬂavor, herring oil, ground chicken bone, chicken cartilage, turkey cartilage, dried kelp, freeze-dried chicken liver, freeze-dried turkey liver, whole pumpkin, whole butternut squash, kale, spinach, mustard greens, collard greens, turnip greens, whole carrots, apples, pears, pumpkin seeds, sunﬂower seeds, zinc proteinate, mixed tocopherols (preservative), chicory root, turmeric, sarsaparilla root, althea root, rosehips, juniper berries, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried biﬁdobacterium animalis fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product.


Those proteins are listed as whole proteins before they are turned in "meal". All dog foods turn their protein into meal to make the dog food, some list it before because they do the processing, others list is as meal after it has been processed. The danger of listing whole proteins is that it is fifty percent water, so once it is turned into meal, the listing is no longer accurate in what is the primary, secondary etc source of protein. Orijen unfortunately will not make public what their percentage of meat protein vs vegetable is. Look at all the peas and legumes they have listed. Too many for comfort.


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## Maggie'sVoice

Yeah I will not feed Orijen. They aren't transparent and they don't do feed trials. That food has been up and down over the last 4 or 5 years. I'm very picky about my dogs food and feed high quality but RC may not read well but they do more research on food then probably anyone. I would trust them more then a lot of other food companies.

Murphy1, we will have to agree to disagree. You have your opinions and that's fine, I was trying to give you more information to think about. I wasn't trying to change your mind, that's up to you with any information.


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## ArkansasGold

I just talked to my breeder about this yesterday, and I trust her opinion above just about anyone. She has decided to switch from a grain-free, legume-filled brand to Purina Pro Plan. I will be following suit. I have been considering it for awhile, so I asked her opinion before making my final decision. She decided to switch after doing research and watching webinars by actual veterinarians and would not have come to this conclusion without thorough and thoughtful research, and I wholeheartedly trust her judgment. My dog does not have any dietary restrictions, so there really isn't a point in risking a heart problem in my opinion. Especially since we do Rally and may dabble in other dog sports at some point where heart function is paramount. 

I think this thread has gotten a bit off track, so to get it back on track, here are the links to the already published papers on the UC Davis website from the early 2000s: 

Plasma and whole blood taurine levels: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmb/labs/aal/pdfs/Delaney.pdf
Taurine status in normal dogs fed food associated with taurine deficient DCM: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmb/labs/aal/pdfs/Torres.pdf 
Taurine concentrations in animal feed ingredients: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmb/labs/aal/pdfs/Spitze.pdf 

If you have not read those papers, I sincerely urge you to do so. These are peer reviewed research papers performed at the number one vet school in the nation. They are not to be taken lightly. For those of you doubting Dr. Stern, here's his page on the UC Davis website: Faculty Results | UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine


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## cubbysan

maegan0412 said:


> I just talked to my breeder about this yesterday, and I trust her opinion above just about anyone. She has decided to switch from a grain-free, legume-filled brand to Purina Pro Plan. I will be following suit. I have been considering it for awhile, so I asked her opinion before making my final decision. She decided to switch after doing research and watching webinars by actual veterinarians and would not have come to this conclusion without thorough and thoughtful research, and I wholeheartedly trust her judgment. My dog does not have any dietary restrictions, so there really isn't a point in risking a heart problem in my opinion. Especially since we do Rally and may dabble in other dog sports at some point where heart function is paramount.
> 
> I think this thread has gotten a bit off track, so to get it back on track, here are the links to the already published papers on the UC Davis website from the early 2000s:
> 
> Plasma and whole blood taurine levels: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmb/labs/aal/pdfs/Delaney.pdf
> Taurine status in normal dogs fed food associated with taurine deficient DCM: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmb/labs/aal/pdfs/Torres.pdf
> Taurine concentrations in animal feed ingredients: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmb/labs/aal/pdfs/Spitze.pdf
> 
> If you have not read those papers, I sincerely urge you to do so. These are peer reviewed research papers performed at the number one vet school in the nation. They are not to be taken lightly. For those of you doubting Dr. Stern, here's his page on the UC Davis website: Faculty Results | UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine


I switched to PurinaProPlan Sport back in June after hearing of this issue. Just about every single show golden retriever I know is on this food, and they have the most beautiful coats and bodies. I am also hearing a lot of longevity on this food. Since I have changed, one of my dogs had a beautiful litter of eight. My show dog male leaned right up into proper show condition. They all have beautiful coats, and my 11 year old loves to run again.


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## murphy1

Thankfully we can agree to disagree.
Fourteen of the first fifteen ingredients in Orijen are meat, maybe not meal, but thats alot of meat.

Royal Canin may do a lot of research, so you say, but it still has very cheap ingredients. 

Cubby, you mentioned four and five star rated foods that are not well researched and are causing the issues. Which ones are you talking about and where can I read about this study?

I really don't want to argue, I want good information. But for the life of me I cannot understand defending poor quality ingredients.


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## ameliaz0608

I am new to this forum and not sure I have posted corrected. I sent in numerous replies to this post. Can anyone see them? I was using quick reply. Now I am using reply. Not sure what the difference is.
But, I know all about this research. My dog is enrolled with Dr. Stern. But in the first link which is from 2002. it states:
_A consistent overall factor affecting taurine status was the consumption of diets
containing rice bran or whole grain rice. Dogs consuming diets in which the first plant
source ingredient was whole grain brown rice had lower whole blood taurine concentrations
than dogs fed an assortment of plant protein sources.
_The acana I am feeding my dog does not have rice, the first ingredient is pork or beef (always a protein). These big dog food companies, give free samples etc to breeders and then they continue to feed their dogs that food. Did anyone see the "truth about pet cancer". They docu series explains a lot about the big dog food manufacturers and how little vets know about nutrition.
Also, purina proplan first ingredients: (do you really think these are good ingredients?)
by products???
Chicken, *corn gluten meal, brewers rice*, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), *poultry by-product meal* (source of glucosamine), *whole grain corn*, corn germ meal, fish meal (source of glucosamine), animal digest, fish oil, dried egg product, salt, calcium.
Dr. Stern has no evidence that legumes are a problem in pet food which is what everyone is claiming. I need to see proof of this before I change their food.


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## ArkansasGold

ameliaz0608 said:


> I am new to this forum and not sure I have posted corrected. I sent in numerous replies to this post. Can anyone see them? I was using quick reply. Now I am using reply. Not sure what the difference is.
> But, I know all about this research. My dog is enrolled with Dr. Stern. But in the first link which is from 2002. it states:
> _A consistent overall factor affecting taurine status was the consumption of diets
> containing rice bran or whole grain rice. Dogs consuming diets in which the first plant
> source ingredient was whole grain brown rice had lower whole blood taurine concentrations
> than dogs fed an assortment of plant protein sources.
> _The acana I am feeding my dog does not have rice, the first ingredient is pork or beef (always a protein). These big dog food companies, give free samples etc to breeders and then they continue to feed their dogs that food. Did anyone see the "truth about pet cancer". They docu series explains a lot about the big dog food manufacturers and how little vets know about nutrition.
> Also, purina proplan first ingredients: (do you really think these are good ingredients?)
> by products???
> Chicken, *corn gluten meal, brewers rice*, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), *poultry by-product meal* (source of glucosamine), *whole grain corn*, corn germ meal, fish meal (source of glucosamine), animal digest, fish oil, dried egg product, salt, calcium.
> Dr. Stern has no evidence that legumes are a problem in pet food which is what everyone is claiming. I need to see proof of this before I change their food.


Yes, we can see your posts. My breeder absolutely *did not* base her decision to switch brands on getting free samples from Purina.


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## ameliaz0608

She may not but unfortunately many of them do. According to numerous vets on the docu-series, the big pet food companies donate millions of dollars to the vet schools. Alot of them would give the vets free pet food and they would get free advertising in exchange. I really don't trust most of the pet food companies. Can't even trust the companies of the food we eat. Every other day is a recall of some kind. It's very scarry!


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## solinvictus

Here are two links out on the net. According to these Dr. Stern suspects that it is both diet and goldens.

https://www.morrisanimalfoundation....anding-dietary-taurine-and-heart-disease-dogs

“Diet plays a huge role in this condition,” said Dr. Josh Stern, a Morris Animal Foundation-funded researcher, owner of a Golden Retriever Lifetime Study participant (Lira, Hero #203), and veterinary cardiologist studying this disease. “Home-cooked diets have been implicated in this problem, as well as small batch, boutique dog foods.”

Although diet plays a role in the golden retrievers, Dr. Stern suspects genetic factors might be involved in increasing the risk of this conditions within the golden retrievers breed.

“I suspect that golden retrievers might have something in their genetic make-up that makes them less efficient at making taurine,” said Dr. Stern. “Couple that with certain diets, and you’ve given them a double hit. If you feed them a diet that has fewer building blocks for taurine or a food component that inhibits this synthesis, they pop up with DCM.”

https://mckeevervetderm.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/543/2017/09/TaurineDef.Goldens.pdf

If Dr. Stern suggested changing foods along with giving supplements I would change to a food that doesn't have the suspected problems. I probably would go with what he is feeding his own golden to start. Then I would start searching for a food that doesn't have any of the suspected ingredients but that I would be more comfortable. But if my dog had tested on the low end for taurine, I would immediately start the process of changing the food. When changing foods to something my dogs have not had before, I do it over a 10 day period. 

I don't think I would wait until the study was complete but follow the suggestions of the doctor.


----------



## ameliaz0608

Thanks for the info. I know all this info about Dr. Stern because my dog is in his research study. He's only had 2 dogs in the study with DCM that was on acana. This was told to me by his cardiology resident. This has blown way out of proposition.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

murphy1 said:


> Thankfully we can agree to disagree.
> Fourteen of the first fifteen ingredients in Orijen are meat, maybe not meal, but thats alot of meat.
> 
> Royal Canin may do a lot of research, so you say, but it still has very cheap ingredients.
> 
> Cubby, you mentioned four and five star rated foods that are not well researched and are causing the issues. Which ones are you talking about and where can I read about this study?
> 
> I really don't want to argue, I want good information. But for the life of me I cannot understand defending poor quality ingredients.


I'm not a RC fan, I'm just saying RC isn't overall an unhealthy food for dogs and maybe more healthier for your dog then Orijen. Only way to know is to compare the full guaranteed analysis and the min/max percentages from the Small Animal Nutrition Guide to make sure you have no excess or deficiencies. Because that's when you have an unhealthy food.

And if you look at fresh meat being 70-80% water and you have a kibble that is 10% moisture, you are losing roughly 50-60% of the ingredients weight. That's A LOT! In most cases you can move the 1st fresh meat ingredient down anywhere from 6-8 spots in the list.

Also with that much meat. You should make sure the phosphorus content does not exceed .9% otherwise that can impact the kidney's (Kidney disease) long term. It's not the protein that impacts the kidney health but the phosphorus in the proteins.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

This is what I'm feeding now. It does have 1 pea ingredient at the 17th ingredient. It has added Taurine, L-Carnitine (something I read that helps produce Taurine and Dl-Methionine (again, used to help produce Taurine). I have shot the company an email asking for the Taurine% and for the full guaranteed analysis on their Lg Breed Puppy, Lg Breed Adult and there Small/Medium Breed adult food. 

I feel this food is more then fine but I still would like to be sure and compare all the percentages for the final verdict. Any Opinions?


----------



## goldenenthusiast

Where do I find the Small Animal Nutrition Guide?


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

littlesnow said:


> Where do I find the Small Animal Nutrition Guide?



Its a book but used to be online. I'll see if I can locate it. And after looking for it i miss spoke. It's he Small Animal Clinical Nutrition Guide


----------



## hotel4dogs

Never argue dog food, politics, or religion. People have very strong opinions, usually unemcumbered by facts.


----------



## murphy1

But Politics can be so much fun


----------



## wstam

Maggie'sVoice said:


> This is what I'm feeding now. It does have 1 pea ingredient at the 17th ingredient. It has added Taurine, L-Carnitine (something I read that helps produce Taurine and Dl-Methionine (again, used to help produce Taurine). I have shot the company an email asking for the Taurine% and for the full guaranteed analysis on their Lg Breed Puppy, Lg Breed Adult and there Small/Medium Breed adult food.
> 
> I feel this food is more then fine but I still would like to be sure and compare all the percentages for the final verdict. Any Opinions?


Hi, will you be able to share the brand of this food? I wanted to PM you the question in case it's intentionally not to mention the name publicly but can't do so as I am new here.

Thanks.


----------



## wstam

wstam said:


> Hi, will you be able to share the brand of this food? I wanted to PM you the question in case it's intentionally not to mention the name publicly but can't do so as I am new here.
> 
> Thanks.


Found the answer in your other post already. Thanks.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

wstam said:


> Found the answer in your other post already. Thanks.



lol sorry, I didn't realize I didn't post the brand. It is Precise Holistic Lg Breed Puppy for anyone else that wanted to know.


----------



## Brendan Lynch

I have been considering Merrick classic formula because it does contain grains. But I noticed most of the types have peas in addition to lamb or chicken. Would this be a bad choice? Or would it be fine because it's not grain free?


----------



## Dee57

I have never fed grain free food. My girl as a pup grew up on science diet large breed puppy cause breeder wanted her on that. the adult formula did not agree with her. I switched around to many foods trying them and Iams large breed is the only thing she could eat. She is 6 now. Recently Iams changed there formula even though it is not grain free it has peas in it. She does not seem to care for it. Now I dont know what to feed. I been looking at wholeearthfarms adult not grain free. But should I go purina pro plan. Help! 
my girl looks good eating Iams but its the ear stuff and eye goobers is worrisome chewy of her feed and eating grass. I think it is cause of that formula change. Help me decide what to feed her please


----------



## puddles everywhere

Quite a few on the forum swear by the PP, just be sure an transition slowly whatever you choose.

I read an article the other day about this but couldn't find it a 2nd time to post. It seems right now they are thinking it's not about the peas but the processing. They talked about the process dry food goes through and basically it looks like they are cooking all the nutrients out of the meat.
I'll post if I can find it again.


----------



## hotel4dogs

I read that, too, but I believe it was the opinion of the person writing the article, not Dr. Joshua Stern or anyone else researching the problem. Key word being opinion.
What they failed to address is the fact that all commercial dog food is processed the same way, yet only the grain free ones (with legumes) are represented in the dogs with DCM.



puddles everywhere said:


> Quite a few on the forum swear by the PP, just be sure an transition slowly whatever you choose.
> 
> I read an article the other day about this but couldn't find it a 2nd time to post. It seems right now they are thinking it's not about the peas but the processing. They talked about the process dry food goes through and basically it looks like they are cooking all the nutrients out of the meat.
> I'll post if I can find it again.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

Yes, I read that article as well and it seems a bit heavy on the conjecture/opinion as to the processing. I mean everyone knows what an extruder does with kibble. That's why I used to like Wellness about 10-12 year ago when they used to bake their kibble. It wasn't under such intense heat and pressure and therefore you could crumble it with 2 fingers. But to continue to grow their brand, you can't make baked kibble fast enough at a certain point and they had to move to an extruded process.



https://truthaboutpetfood.com/is-it-peas-processing-or-a-combination/


----------



## puddles everywhere

Life was simpler when people ate healthier. When there weren't fast food places on every corner and foods didn't have so many preservatives in it so dogs could eat table scraps. Man am I showing my age!


----------



## Dee57

Thank you for trying to find that article. Which one is more meat based? dog food advisor said wholeearth is plant based. I dont understand how they figure this out. meat in first ingredients to me says it should be meat based. I have read higher protein and low carbs are better too. Carbs turn to sugar. what animal digest in PP is it? could be any animal.


----------



## Dee57

I dont understand how they do well on proplan since goldens are not suppose to have corn and wheat.
what is dha and epa in pro plan


----------



## hotel4dogs

Can you cite your sources that prove Goldens are not supposed to have corn and wheat? Oh, and if they're not certified veterinary nutrionists (a DVM with a PhD in small animal nutrition) they're not a legitimate source.
I'm not sure I understand your comment about dha and epa in Pro Plan. They're Omega 3 fatty acids. Are you asking the source, the amount, or why they are there?



Dee57 said:


> I dont understand how they do well on proplan since goldens are not suppose to have corn and wheat.
> what is dha and epa in pro plan


----------



## rabernet

murphy1 said:


> Tahnee, I will respectfully disagree about Dr Stern.* He may know the "heart" but knows little about nutrition.* Firs,t I don't think kibble is the best food for any animal but a good kibble is better than RC. One thing for sure, good ingredients have to make a better food than what is in Royal Canin. It must be a great money maker because the ingredients are as cheap as can be.





ameliaz0608 said:


> I agree with you murphy1 ! jajulie12 it is very hard to recommend a dog food. * I would advise checking out these sites. https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/, * The 2018 List ? Truth about Pet FoodPetsumer Report ? Pet food reviews on over 4,500 cat and dog foods, from pet food consumer advocate Susan Thixton.https://www.planetpaws.ca/
> It is a very complicated, time consuming process to pick out dog food. Although, you would think it shouldn't be. Dog food like human food has recalls and problems. When you think you made a good choice, something comes up that effects your choice. I don't think there is any perfect dog food. There is a hard push these days from holistic vets to feed raw. I have concerns about that so I feed freeze-dried and kibble plus added blueberries, carrots, supplements etc. Good Luck!


I found it ironic that in the first quote, you don't trust Dr. Stern as a nutritionist, but you DO trust Dog Food Advisor, who is ALSO not a nutritionist, but a human dentist, who shares his OPINION only. 

In any case, we are also very happy with Purina ProPlan line. Noah was raised on it all his life, and has a nice lean and athletic build (also does dog sports). We plan to raise our new boy, Moses on this line as well.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

Dee57 said:


> I dont understand how they do well on proplan since goldens are not suppose to have corn and wheat.
> what is dha and epa in pro plan





I will agree with you on wheat in general. I think wheat and soy are the real issues as far as grains for dogs go as high incidents for reactions.



Corn on the other hand isn't bad unless a dog has a reaction to it. It has Proteins, fats, carbs, omega 6 (I think it's 6 and not 3) and fiber and once ground, It's 91% digestible. More then Rice, Barley, Wheat, Soy and Sorghum. I think it's one of the more complete grains.



Soy isn't great either. Soy, unless the protein is separated and you get soy protein isolate, isn't great for dogs or people for that matter. Soy has been looked at as making it difficult to absorb nutrients in the GI tract. 



Soy contains high levels or phytic acid which inhibits the ability to absorb important minerals like zinc, calcium, copper, iron, and magnesium. Also has something called protease inhibitors which can block enzymes needed to digest proteins.


I don't think Pro Plan uses soy in their regular kibble but I do believe they use it in their shredded blends or I know they used to when they launched that line 12 years ago or so.


----------



## murphy1

I do not trust Dr Stern as a nutritionist, he is feeding what I consider a very cheap cereal based food. Did I say I trush Dog Food Advisor? I trust my own instincts. After this thread began, I emailed Dr Stern, concerned about his study asking what he fed his dog. I received no response. Ingredients make it very easy for me to decide what dog food is best, to me its very easy. If you want to feed your dog a food made with the majority of grain, go for it. I choose to feed, what I consider a better food, with majority of meat. Dr Stern does not impress me at all, I bet he's on the payroll of the dog food he uses and probably gets it for free.


----------



## hotel4dogs

As many of us have said over and over, feed your dog whatever works for you. 
But for the benefit of anyone doing a Google search and ending up here, I offer the following.
I've boarded many, many dogs between the ages of 16-22, including a lot of large breed dogs and a 13 year old great Dane. My own Goldens so far lived to 16.5 and 14. WITHOUT EXCEPTION every one ate a Purina food (often ONE), Iams, or Royal Canin. For whatever that's worth.
Dr. Stern gets hundreds of emails per day and is active in a couple of Golden FB groups, sorry if he doesn't have time to respond to each email, often asking the same questions he has answered repeatedly on FB or in his publications.
Meanwhile, before spewing defamatory and patently false statements about him I strongly suggest that you check your facts. 



murphy1 said:


> I do not trust Dr Stern as a nutritionist, he is feeding what I consider a very cheap cereal based food. Did I say I trush Dog Food Advisor? I trust my own instincts. After this thread began, I emailed Dr Stern, concerned about his study asking what he fed his dog. I received no response. Ingredients make it very easy for me to decide what dog food is best, to me its very easy. If you want to feed your dog a food made with the majority of grain, go for it. I choose to feed, what I consider a better food, with majority of meat. Dr Stern does not impress me at all, I bet he's on the payroll of the dog food he uses and probably gets it for free.


----------



## murphy1

I stated my opinion and my opinion only!


----------



## Brave

Does supplementing with organs and/or eggs diffuse/dilute/mitigate the chance/danger of the low taurine? 

My breeder is aware of the taurine/DCM issue and believes I won't have a problem with Eukanuba. But to be safe, can I feed some beef or chicken organs and/or eggs? Like a weekly thing? 

I'm currently feeding (been feeding it over 3 years - maybe closer to 4 - with decent results in my personal dog/s but I'm just realizing it's grain free). So idk if I need to supplement this food in my current dog to avoid issues. 








My puppy comes home in a couple months. I'm planning on feeding Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy (as recommended by my breeder) unless they choose otherwise.








Transitioning to their performance 30/20 blend when appropriate (since we intend on showing in conformation and other dog sports):


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## Maggie'sVoice

hotel4dogs said:


> As many of us have said over and over, feed your dog whatever works for you.
> But for the benefit of anyone doing a Google search and ending up here, I offer the following.
> I've boarded many, many dogs between the ages of 16-22, including a lot of large breed dogs and a 13 year old great Dane. My own Goldens so far lived to 16.5 and 14. WITHOUT EXCEPTION every one ate a Purina food (often ONE), Iams, or Royal Canin. For whatever that's worth.
> Dr. Stern gets hundreds of emails per day and is active in a couple of Golden FB groups, sorry if he doesn't have time to respond to each email, often asking the same questions he has answered repeatedly on FB or in his publications.
> Meanwhile, before spewing defamatory and patently false statements about him I strongly suggest that you check your facts.



murphy1 doesn't understand the point being made I don't believe. I have tried to explain to him that just reading "better" ingredients in a food doesn't just automatically make it a "better" food. If that was the case you would read a bag of these grain free diets and assume it would be better then the the Royal Canin food he's bashing for being a cereal food but would potentially be seriously making very bad choice. I feed a food I like the way it reads too but it's also much more important for it to be a safe food to feed where there aren't excesses or deficiencies. If all things were equal, then yes less cereal grains in a dogs food may be better, but things aren't equal. I feel he isn't very open minded to learn something new or listen to anything people have to offer/add, it's just his opinion and that's it.


As far as bashing someone for not getting a response from a single email from a guy who extremely busy and active on multiple platforms is not cool and really misguided I believe.


----------



## Betsy

I can’t tout the praises for Dr. Stern enuf!! He is out of the country right now on vacation...& he STILL answered me yesterday about a question I had. I am so eagerly awaiting the results of his study!


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## murphy1

I honestly understand the point being made, I just don't totally agree. This forum is all about opinion, I have mine and others have theirs. I do not want to fight! Better ingredients make better food, to me its common sense. I would love to see all those included in this discussion, post the dog food they use. No comments to be used by others, just an education.

I switch between Orijen Six Fish and Orijen Original. Murphy has a Vet appt next month and I plan on having his Taurine level checked.

Thanks to all here, I enjoy the forum!


----------



## hotel4dogs

Thanks for this post. It's great to see people agree to disagree while still being nice to each other!
To answer your question, Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach for my boy.



murphy1 said:


> I honestly understand the point being made, I just don't totally agree. This forum is all about opinion, I have mine and others have theirs. I do not want to fight! Better ingredients make better food, to me its common sense. I would love to see all those included in this discussion, post the dog food they use. No comments to be used by others, just an education.
> 
> I switch between Orijen Six Fish and Orijen Original. Murphy has a Vet appt next month and I plan on having his Taurine level checked.
> 
> Thanks to all here, I enjoy the forum!


----------



## Tahnee GR

Here is an interesting article from Tufts. A 5 year old Golden lost his battle with taurine deficient DM yesterday, his owners are devastated. His 2 year old housemate was diagnosed with low taurine but no DCM. They were on grain free versions of TOTW or Zignature from the beginning, with a brief stint on Acana.

A broken heart: Risk of heart disease in boutique or grain-free diets and exotic ingredients ? Clinical Nutrition Service at Cummings School


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## hotel4dogs

Outstanding article, Linda. Can you put it in a new thread so that it's not buried in here? It's well worth reading.


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## Jessie'sGirl

This is a great article, clearly written , and by a Veterinary nutritionist too boot! Thanks. 
I have fed my boy a grain free food for years. He's now 8 and has done well on this food and according to my vet, looks great for his age. But , out of concerning for his future health, I am switching to a food which includes grains. 
So, I have fed Horizon Legacy for years and am now switching to Horizon Complete. Canadian made, Canadian sourced. 
Logically, I do not believe it is the grain free factor that is the problem in the cases we have heard of, but the fact that meat protein is being replaced with plant proteins in some grain free diets.


----------



## MilesToEmpty

My wife and I are pretty stumped on what to do with our boy Jake.

He's been on Acana Duck for about 4 months, and does great. No itching, no chewing, good #2's. Etc. Its the one food we have found that he doesnt have an issue to.

With this whole "Stop feeding Acana and Orijen immediately" bandwagon we tried some other foods. All of which he cant tolerate!

Annamaet Adult
Annamaet 26 (Venizon)
Fromm Duck
Farmina Lamb
Farmina Cod
Ancestry Duck and Potato
ProPlan Sensitive Skin
Canine Caviar Open Meadows

All of these he licks his paws raw. When you swap back to the Acana, he stops within a day and his paws heal by the end of the week. 

So if we need to stay with Acana, what can we do to ensure he's healthy? We've reached out to our vet about getting his Taurine levels tested. We have about 10 bags of open food at our house now. Luckily our other 2 dogs will eat it, but its gotten pretty expensive!


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## Tahnee GR

Here’s another article from Tufts, discussing labels and how they can sometimes be misleading.

http://vet.tufts.edu/wp-content/uploads/DecipheringFactFromFictionIngredients.pdf


----------



## rabernet

Linda - thank you for those links! I have a question - should I be concerned with pea fiber as an ingredient. Purina ProPlan Large Breed puppy has that listed as the seventh ingredient which surprised me, actually. 

Happy to see that the Sport 30/20 has no peas or legumes in the ingredients list.


----------



## Sweet Girl

Tahnee GR said:


> Here is an interesting article from Tufts. A 5 year old Golden lost his battle with taurine deficient DM yesterday, his owners are devastated. His 2 year old housemate was diagnosed with low taurine but no DCM. They were on grain free versions of TOTW or Zignature from the beginning, with a brief stint on Acana.
> 
> A broken heart: Risk of heart disease in boutique or grain-free diets and exotic ingredients ? Clinical Nutrition Service at Cummings School



From the article - I think this is such important information to hear from veterinary nutritionists who know the actual science:



*Exotic ingredients are on the rise*
Why are pet owners feeding these exotic ingredients? I think is it primarily because pet owners are falling victim to marketing which portrays exotic ingredients as more natural or healthier than typical ingredients. There is no truth to this marketing – and there is no evidence that these ingredients are any more natural or healthier than more typical ingredients. This is just good marketing that preys on our desire to do the best for our pets.
*There is no proof that grain-free is better!*
Many pet owners have, unfortunately, also bought into the grain-free myth. The fact is that food allergies are very uncommon, so there’s no benefit of feeding pet foods containing exotic ingredients. And while grains have been accused on the internet of causing nearly every disease known to dogs, grains do not contribute to any health problems and are used in pet food as a nutritious source of protein, vitamins, and minerals.


----------



## murphy1

I chose grain free and I won't lie, I'm anxious to see Murphys taurine level. I'm not against grain but when it's the first or second ingredient, I will not buy it, especially if it's an expensive dog food. It's just a rip off!


----------



## murphy1

And another question, what is an example of exotic ingredients. I can't say anything I've seen would be deemed exotic.


----------



## Jessie'sGirl

I would like to know what " boutique " dog foods are.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

Exotic is just a fancy name for unique like ancient grains such as Quinoa and when things like lentils/beans started being used and meats like Kangaroo or Bison something not regular or expected.


As far as Boutique foods I would expect that just means they are just food companies that jump on the current band wagon and maybe appease people looking for foods following the latest trends and probably don't really have a lot of presence in the market place or hard to find in specialty shops only. There no real research being done and just formulate their foods from the AAFCO guideline to save money.


----------



## Sweet Girl

Maggie'sVoice said:


> As far as Boutique foods I would expect that just means they are just food companies that jump on the current band wagon and maybe appease people looking for foods following the latest trends and probably don't really have a lot of presence in the market place or hard to find in specialty shops only. There no real research being done and just formulate their foods from the AAFCO guideline to save money.



This is a pretty good description. I remember when I switched to Pro Plan and told my vet, I said, I bet I'm your only client feeding a Purina food. She was so thrilled that I was, and told me she worries so much about all the misinformation out there about boutique foods. She said people don't realize that anyone can just hang out a sign (figuratively speaking) and make a dog food - with little to no quality control, no research, no formulations based on veterinary nutrition - and market it as a premium or high quality food. I live in an area where there are lots of "boutique" pet food stores that don't even carry Purina or Eukanuba. I once went into one, a decade or so ago, looking for Eukanuba for my last dog, and I was told I was basically poisoning my dog. In those exact words.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

Sweet Girl said:


> This is a pretty good description. I remember when I switched to Pro Plan and told my vet, I said, I bet I'm your only client feeding a Purina food. She was so thrilled that I was, and told me she worries so much about all the misinformation out there about boutique foods. She said people don't realize that anyone can just hang out a sign (figuratively speaking) and make a dog food - with little to no quality control, no research, no formulations based on veterinary nutrition - and market it as a premium or high quality food. I live in an area where there are lots of "boutique" pet food stores that don't even carry Purina or Eukanuba. I once went into one, a decade or so ago, looking for Eukanuba for my last dog, and I was told I was basically poisoning my dog. In those exact words.





Well to be fair, most vets are behind the 8-ball so to speak when it comes to nutrition out of vet school. They get only a few credit hours of nutrition and it's mainly on livestock/farm animals like cows, pigs and the like. Nothing of any substance on dogs and cats. So unless a vet really educates themselves afterwards they are limited on the nutrition side of things. Again, this is the average vet. Some vets are very good on nutrition though.


----------



## hotel4dogs

That may depend on when they graduated. More recent grads, at least from Purdue and U of I vet schools, have been much better schooled in small animal nutrition than in the past. I can't speak to other schools.
A lot of the ongoing education my vet has done does involve nutrition, so at least it is being addressed.



Maggie'sVoice said:


> Well to be fair, most vets are behind the 8-ball so to speak when it comes to nutrition out of vet school. They get only a few credit hours of nutrition and it's mainly on livestock/farm animals like cows, pigs and the like. Nothing of any substance on dogs and cats. So unless a vet really educates themselves afterwards they are limited on the nutrition side of things. Again, this is the average vet. Some vets are very good on nutrition though.


----------



## Sweet Girl

Maggie'sVoice said:


> Well to be fair, most vets are behind the 8-ball so to speak when it comes to nutrition out of vet school. They get only a few credit hours of nutrition and it's mainly on livestock/farm animals like cows, pigs and the like. Nothing of any substance on dogs and cats. So unless a vet really educates themselves afterwards they are limited on the nutrition side of things. Again, this is the average vet. Some vets are very good on nutrition though.



In my experience, the vets I've known have been pretty well educated on it. My post about my vet's reaction to boutique foods was meant to reflect positively on her. She is in a constant uphill battle around here against boutique pet foods, grain-free, organic, raw, etc etc.


----------



## cyberbarb

There is a Facebook group that is called Taurine-Deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy. Everyone on there says to stop feeding grain free and anything that has peas in it. They say TOTW is bad. That is what I feed. Now I need to switch. At least until that study in California is done. A lot of interesting info on that page.


----------



## hotel4dogs

I'd probably avoid Acana and Orijen until the lawsuit (from March I think) for having excessive heavy metals including arsenic gets sorted out. It may be nothing, but it would concern me.


----------



## murphy1

https://www.petful.com/food/orijen-lawsuit-2018/

interesting.....who should you believe....numbers don't lie but people do


----------



## MilesToEmpty

cyberbarb said:


> There is a Facebook group that is called Taurine-Deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy. Everyone on there says to stop feeding grain free and anything that has peas in it. They say TOTW is bad. That is what I feed. Now I need to switch. At least until that study in California is done. A lot of interesting info on that page.


TOTW is bad
Orijen is bad
Acana is bad
Canine Caviar (w/ legumes) is bad
GO! is bad
Fromm grain free is bad
Zignature is bad
Farmina is bad (now had pea protein!)

Fromm grain is good if you pick one without pea protein and green beans

Hills SD is good
RC is good
Purina is good

Take it how you will, but Im finding the one sided side of things kinda one sided. Get off all the fancy foods to go back to the ones vet recommended.

My vet wanted us off all the gourmet diets and on Royal Canin specialty diets. Wife and I are completely lost on what direction to go.


----------



## ArkansasGold

MilesToEmpty said:


> My vet wanted us off all the gourmet diets and on Royal Canin specialty diets. Wife and I are completely lost on what direction to go.


None of the people giving opinions on the internet are technically qualified to give you opinions on what to feed your dog. They are not vets and neither am I, but if I was a vet and I had examined the best available data (whether I specialized in nutrition or not), I could not in good conscience recommend a food that had been implicated in causing the death of a dog due to a preventable heart condition that seems to be caused by dietary deficiencies. 

So my unqualified opinion is that you should go with your vet's recommendation.  If you do not want to feed Royal Canin for whatever reason, then ask your vet for alternatives.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

MilesToEmpty said:


> My vet wanted us off all the gourmet diets and on Royal Canin specialty diets. Wife and I are completely lost on what direction to go.



There is no need ever to just go on a specialty diet if they are meaning the veterinary diets as they are normally for very specific issues and usually not meant to be fed long term, at least without vet supervision. You have to get them from the vet and are usually a standard 2x markup as with most foods in a pet store are 1.3x markup so the costs are extremely different. 



If you're worried about the DCM issue, just go with any non grain free food with no peas/legumes. The main or big national brands in there core formulas should all be fine. Pro Plan, Science Diet, Royal Canin, Nutro, Eukanuba. Some may like others in that list more then others but they should all be fine in covering your fears for the DCM issue.


----------



## rabernet

rabernet said:


> Linda - thank you for those links! I have a question - should I be concerned with pea fiber as an ingredient. Purina ProPlan Large Breed puppy has that listed as the seventh ingredient which surprised me, actually.
> 
> Happy to see that the Sport 30/20 has no peas or legumes in the ingredients list.


I don't know if anyone saw my question, but no one responded. Would like to know what folks think.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

rabernet said:


> I don't know if anyone saw my question, but no one responded. Would like to know what folks think.



Pea fiber is just the fiber separated from the rest of what makes a pea. Without knowing what part of the pea is responsible for the effects of the taurine deficiency I would say the pea fiber should be treated as a regular whole pea ingredient. So, keep the pea/legume ingredients to a minimum and try and keep them after the 10th ingredient or lower in the list. Fiber is usually very food but with some speculation that peas/legumes actually inhibit in some way the absorption or metabolization of the taurine I wouldn't trust the pea fiber any more then the whole pea right now.


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## Dogmom77

I have been using Fromm Chicken a la veg and Salmon a la veg. You can interchange them. Neither have any pea products that I can see. Might be good alternatives.

















Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Brendan Lynch

Just wanted to alert you guys of the discussion going on over in the Facebook forum. It appears PPP Sensitive changed their formula awhile back. They apparently eliminated eggs and added sunflower oil.

Does this concern anyone?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1257656451030324/permalink/1611168272345805/


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## hotel4dogs

Not a bit.



Brendan Lynch said:


> Just wanted to alert you guys of the discussion going on over in the Facebook forum. It appears PPP Sensitive changed their formula awhile back. They apparently eliminated eggs and added sunflower oil.
> 
> Does this concern anyone?
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/1257656451030324/permalink/1611168272345805/


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## T&T

There's been more research & it seems they just don't know ... Even raw will lose it's taurine if frozen for more than 3 months ? ... Like him or not, Rodney Habib from Planet Paws did some digging & came up with this video on the different research worth watching till the end. 
https://www.facebook.com/rodneyhabi...vRcY1u-bnTniioZEwIZ-slkYA1C2ieEaR0YvEc-8tHfzg


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## murphy1

There are many dogs eating grain free,,,,,so why isn't this all over the news? It all depends on which study you want to trust...who knows!


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## ameliaz0608

OMG, (in reply to Miles to Empty) I made a spreadsheet that looks like yours! You wouldn't think feeding a dog shouldn't be so difficult. My oldest dog lived until 15 yrs old. That was over 25yrs ago and I feed him Kibbles n Bits. (crazy!) Since then over the years, I researched & researched dog food and have feed good quality foods, but every Golden has died from cancer between 10-12 yrs. Not sure where that gets me but....anyway,
Check out Rodney Habib's video on facebook. I have a 4 yr old that was diagnosed with DCM at 2 yrs old. I am in the UC Davis taurine study. My Auggie's taurine tested low. My older golden, Kodi was tested and he is alittle low but does not have DCM. I am beside myself to find a food without legumes that also meets my other requirements. A DIFFICULT TASK! Dr. Stern recommends Royal Canin or Purina, which I will never feed my dog and I agree with Rodney. Watch his video it is very interesting. In the meantime, Dr. Stern recommended the following: no grain free food, no lamb based, supplement Taurine 1,500mg 2x per day and L-Carnitine 1,500 mg 3x day. The supplementation is only given after you test your dog for taurine deficiency and if they are low. My dogs are on Acana Pork & Squash (one of the foods he bashes). Previously they were on Acana grasslands. I also give them one meal of Orijen freeze dried regional red. I add raw broccoli, blueberries and carrots and give other supplements. I have been researching for months, but no one really knows the answers yet but they are doing a really good job at scaring people and not giving a solution! It's been extremely frustrating!!! What I have gotten out of this, legumes are the problem. Try to find grain free and no legumes (that's if you are feeding grain free). They need cheap fillers for dog food, either grains or legumes. I may have to go back to grains. I am looking at Farmina (ancestrial grains) but since I called them and they won't give me a list of the ingredient %'s not sure about them. I will keep them on Acana until i can find something else and continue to supplement as suggested by Dr. Stern.
https://www.facebook.com/rodneyhabi...vRcY1u-bnTniioZEwIZ-slkYA1C2ieEaR0YvEc-8tHfzg


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## ameliaz0608

link not complete above:

https://www.facebook.com/rodneyhabi...vRcY1u-bnTniioZEwIZ-slkYA1C2ieEaR0YvEc-8tHfzg


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## Betsy

If possible.....get off the arcana. There is a Facebook page...taurine deficiency in golden retrievers. They made a table & acana is certainly implicated in some dogs with low taurine levels & dcm. That scares me.


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## ameliaz0608

Thank You, I know about the facebook page. I cannot get off Acana until I find a replacement. Also, There are other foods, not just Acana that are implicated. I don't think it is a specific brand of food, but a specific type-grain free and legumes seem to be the main problem and low protein lamb diets.


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## murphy1

I emailed the maker of Orijen and Acana dog food asking what percentage of protein comes from meat, in their Orijen Six Fish and Original. Their answer was 95% comes from meat. I've read here, they would not answer that question. I received an answer in a few hours.


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## hotel4dogs

Now that the FDA is involved, and it has made national news, they have suddenly become more cooperative. Especially with a couple of Acana foods heavily represented in the dogs with diagnosed low taurine DCM.



murphy1 said:


> I emailed the maker of Orijen and Acana dog food asking what percentage of protein comes from meat, in their Orijen Six Fish and Original. Their answer was 95% comes from meat. I've read here, they would not answer that question. I received an answer in a few hours.


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## murphy1

I know Acana is mentioned a lot with this topic. I'm sure there are other high quality foods very similar to Acana that would easily be implicated as well.


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## hotel4dogs

That is probably true, but for now Acana is one that is actually documented with lab work and echocardiograms. I'd hate to point fingers at other foods (which you did not, I'm not saying that you did) without similar hard evidence.



murphy1 said:


> I know Acana is mentioned a lot with this topic. I'm sure there are other high quality foods very similar to Acana that would easily be implicated as well.


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## ameliaz0608

I've spoken to Champion Pet food many times. They are always straight forward with the information and the website is very specific, which was one of the reasons I picked their food. The Six Fish states on the bag 85% wild caught ingredients and 15% fruits and vegetables. The problem is all of their food has alot of legumes. As an example, this formula and most of their formulas has:whole green peas, whole navy beans, whole red lentils, whole yellow peas, whole pinto beans, whole chickpeas, whole green lentils, lentil ﬁber. That's 8 legumes when added together could be a good percentage. They are unable to give me the actual percentage, but it could be 10% that make up the 15% vegetables.
Anyway, until the study is conclusive I am weaning them off the acana. I decided to go with Honest Kitchen. Short list of ingredients and a great food. I would still like to add a freeze dried food and looking into grandma lucy's artisan chicken. They are sending me samples. Unfortunately, the current Orijen Freeze dry I am giving them has pea fiber, so I have to change that as well. In addition to the legume issue, the more I read about kibble it really seems it is the worse food to feed our pets. It is highly processed like our fast food companies. So we'll see.


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## murphy1

But they said 95% of the protein comes from meat. There is a lot of meat listed first and I understand meat not meal has a lot of water but that still leaves on 5% from the veggies etc.


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## ameliaz0608

Don't know who replied to you but the website state 85% for the six fish and original. Doesn't matter still has 8 different legumes in it.


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## murphy1

I copied and pasted the reply, leaving out my name etc. 



Thank you for taking the time to contact us in regards to our ORIJEN Six Fish and Original. 



All of our ORIJEN diets receive over 95% of the protein from the meat ingredients. This means that less than 5% of the protein would be coming from our other ingredients. 



If you have any additional questions please let me know. 



Kind regards, 



Carrie
Customer Care

Champion Petfoods LP


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## hotel4dogs

I think the confusion comes from the fact that the meat percentage is a percentage of the total, so it can still contain huge amounts of legumes if they are counting them as carbs or fiber.
For example, if a food is 40% protein, and 95% of the protein is from meat, (ignoring the water percentage just to make this easy), the meat is 95% of 40%, or 38% of the food.
This means 62% of the food is other ingredients, of which legumes may play a big part.


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## Maggie'sVoice

murphy1 said:


> But they said 95% of the protein comes from meat. There is a lot of meat listed first and I understand meat not meal has a lot of water but that still leaves on 5% from the veggies etc.



Depends on the meat but most fowl like chicken and turkey where 70% of the weight is water. So as a first ingredient after the processing to kibble and ending up as a final product that is just 10% moisture, that first ingredient of chicken becomes roughly the 7th or 8th place in the list of ingredients. That meat looses as much as 50-60% of it's weight. The ingredient list is put in order of based on weight *prior* to processing.


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## ameliaz0608

You guys are correct. It's not a cut & dry 95%. Doesn't matter to me, I'm not feeding it anymore. We will see in a couple of months if his echo is any different. I think more importantly and not related to the taurine issue is I got them off of kibble. It will cost me a small fortune but hopefully will be better for them. My one boy, Kodi always had yeasty ears and I clean them weekly, sometimes every other day. Since I cut back on the kibble the past month, I only cleaned his ears 2 times. Already seeing a difference!


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## murphy1

Ameliaz0608......I want to learn, what do you feed you dog every day? I might be persuaded to go that route


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## Niko1003

*9 month old*

I'm concerned as well. Ive been feeding my puppy Taste of the wild puppy Prairie dry food and want to wean him off to the adult formula. Ive read the ingredients and i see peas as one of the firs few listed as well as others. Does anyone have any suggestions? He's been doing great but never showed eagerness to eat his food. I only started him on grain free from my experience with a previous Golden that I had that passed and had lots of ear issues, and stomach. My puppy does belch a lot after he eats too now that I'm thinking about all this. Suggestions for a adult dry food would be greatly appreciated.


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## ameliaz0608

Hi, I am by no means an authority on dog food. Although I have done alot of research and every dog is different. What may be good for my dog may not be for yours. Over the years, I've had 10 goldens and 1 mixed breed. I always fed them kibble and added whole food and supplements. All of them died of cancer. Which as you know is common in this breed. My oldest dog who was a mixed breed lived to 15 and I feed him the worse garbage-kibbles & bits. So not sure what that tells us. I think genetics plays a big part in longevity. Anyway, over the past couple of years I have been crazy researching different foods and I thought I picked one of the better kibbles -Acana. So I have been feeding my boy various formulas of Acana and the freeze dried Orijen for years. They are not picky eaters, so that was never a problem. But one of them always had yeasty ears and I know it was related to the food. Then in April when all this started with taurine and DCM, I tried excessively to find a kibble that was grain free and legume free. An extremely difficult task. I did find a few- I don't know if any of them are good since I do not have an experience with these brands. But you can look into them. You have to read the ingredients because not all formulas for same company are legume free. I have been testing with Honest Kitchen (https://www.thehonestkitchen.com/dog-food/meals) for the last few weeks. The boys love it (but they like everything). Excellent ingredients and no legumes or grain. So I am going with the beef formula. I think the chicken has green beans in it but the fish has no legumes. I need to also change from Orijen to another freeze dried because that also has peas. I am waiting for samples of Grandma Lucy's Artisan Chicken. also, looks like an excellent choice. So if that works out, I will alternate between the two.
My choice may not be good for you. And I can tell you that freeze dried and dehydrated foods is costing me more than double than kibble. But I need to get Auggie off the legumes and re-echo him to see if in fact this will make a difference. Even if it doesn't for his DCM, I believe it would be better for them anyway.
here are some options in kibble:
https://www.earthbornholisticpetfood.com/dog-food-formulas/venture/alaska-pollock-meal-pumpkin
Also this one, but protein is high.
https://www.instinctpetfood.com/dog...nct-ultimate-protein-cage-free-chicken-recipe
This one has limited grains and no legumes….
https://www.natureslogic.com/ingredients/manufacturing-locations/
(the working dog formula)
https://sportdogfood.com/
https://firstmate.com/product/pacific-ocean-fish-meal-original-formula/


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## lauram

Does anyone have experience with Summit Large breed? in Canada?


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## Peri29

Lack or deficiency of taurine in most of the dog foods not only creates heart problems with GRs but all breeds.
A commercial dog food (dry) shall contain at least 0.1 % of taurine.
If your dog suffers from heart problems we usually use dosage of taurine 600 - 750 mg of taurine supplement for a dog weighing 60 lbs and we divide it into two. Let's say 300 mg in the morning and 300 mg in the evening.
However, I would first of all suggest you contacting a local holistic vet.
GR are made from breeds from Newfoundland, spaniels and setters. Unfortunately, all those breeds have a genetic deficiency in absorbing taurine and may be supplied extra from outside with supplements.


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## Maggie'sVoice

Peri29 said:


> Lack or deficiency of taurine in most of the dog foods not only creates heart problems with GRs but all breeds.
> A commercial dog food (dry) shall contain at least 0.1 % of taurine.
> If your dog suffers from heart problems we usually use dosage of taurine 600 - 750 mg of taurine supplement for a dog weighing 60 lbs and we divide it into two. Let's say 300 mg in the morning and 300 mg in the evening.
> However, I would first of all suggest you contacting a local holistic vet.
> GR are made from breeds from Newfoundland, spaniels and setters. Unfortunately, all those breeds have a genetic deficiency in absorbing taurine and may be supplied extra from outside with supplements.





This is true but the study is also looking into the possibility that the peas/legumes are actually inhibiting the absorption or Taurine and at was levels does it start to do so or if it's any amount of legumes/peas that cause this. So the supplementation is key but do you have to totally remove the legumes.peas at the same time all together.


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## Peri29

Dear , we do not remove the peas /legumes at all but give supplementation instead. Our opinion is nevertheless with age after 7 years old they are all prone to heart diseases. And accordingly we start with taurine supplementation 1/5 the dose each year, increasing it to 2/5 dose given above until we reach age 12 ( when we give 600-800 mg for 60-70 lbs dog) and continue till lifetime hopefully.


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## Peri29

PLEASE READ EVERYONE WHO IS INTERESTED IN THE TAURINE SUBJECT AND WISH TO CHANGE/ALTER THE KIBBLE AND THIS ARTICLE MAY ENLIGHTEN YOU MORE ON THE PEAS/LEGUME SUBJECT.
HOWEVER, LET'S KEEP IN MIND. DOG FOOD SECTOR IS A HUGE SECTOR.AND WE CAN NEVER BE SURE WHO BACKS UP WHO IN THE SECTOR((
PUBLISHED TODAY:

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/b...nal:e309707:2428878a:&st=email&s=p_Blog080218



By Nancy Kerns

I’ve been getting calls, emails, social media messages, and countless forwarded articles from other websites and publications – perhaps even from you! And the first thing I want to tell you is to take a breath!

The FDA recently issued a warning (linked here) that it is investigating a possible link between diet and dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) in dogs.

The warning spread like wildfire through social media channels, but unfortunately, it also rapidly got dumbed down to a ridiculous level; it quickly evolved into something like “grain-free foods cause canine heart disease,” or worse yet, “boutique foods might kill your dog. The FDA characterizes the issue as a “potential association” between diets with very specific attributes (and certainly not ALL grain-free diets) and canine DCM – not a cause.

Please note that the FDA’s headline did not say anything about “grain-free diets” causing heart problems – though almost all the blog posts and articles in other publications have been saying exactly that. If you read the FDA’s statement, you will see that they said there may be a link between some grain-free diets and canine DCM, but there are also many other things going on that may be responsible for an observed rise in cases of canine DCM.

grain free dog food concerns
Linda Case, long-time animal nutrition expert and author of Dog Food Logic, has written an in-depth article for WDJ’s September issue that goes into lots of detail about what is known about the dietary causes of DCM, including several issues regarding taurine and the amino acids (cysteine and methionine) that dogs use to produce taurine. Please revisit wholedogjournal.com in a couple of weeks to see her article about the connections between diet and DCM in dogs. Hint: It’s not as simple as the possibility that the diets are lacking the amino acid precursors to taurine.

[Whole Dog Journal has covered taurine deficiency in the past, regarding vegetarian diets for dogs, low-fat dog foods, and canine congestive heart failure.]

But for now, hopefully to put your mind at ease, I’m going to briefly discuss some of the pertinent facts that make the story a little more complicated than the “grain-free diets cause heart disease” headlines.

What We Know About Dilated Cardiomyopathy in Dogs
The FDA received a report from Cardiac Care for Pets, a practice that employs 19 veterinary cardiologists in Maryland, Kentucky, Virginia, and Texas, that they had seen a spike in canine DCM cases – and not just in the breeds that have a genetic predisposition to developing DCM, but also in breeds that are not known for an inherited propensity for the condition. Their report also included the fact that all of the cases had something in common: all the dogs had been eating diets heavy in peas, lentils, chickpeas, and potatoes.

Other veterinary cardiologists were noticing the same thing. The FDA received reports recently of about two dozen additional cases, including three dogs that died of the condition. After reviewing the medical records of these dogs, the FDA felt it was prudent to issue a measured warning, in part to alert dog owners and veterinarians to be aware of signs of the condition in potentially affected dogs (which, it is hoped, will elicit more data). Its warning, specifically, stated that vets and dog owners should be alert for signs of DCM in dogs eating foods “containing peas, lentils, other legume seeds, or potatoes as main ingredients.”

That’s our emphasis, but it is repeated in the FDA’s warning:

“Diets in cases reported to the FDA frequently list potatoes or multiple legumes [our emphasis again] such as peas, lentils, other ‘pulses’ (seeds of legumes), and their protein, starch, and fiber derivatives early in the ingredient list, indicating that they are main ingredients.” [Again, our emphasis.]

What is a “main ingredient”? There isn’t a legal definition, but in our book, it’s anything in about the first five ingredients on the list. As you probably know, food ingredients are listed on labels (by law) in order of their weight in the formula before the food is cooked. The first four to six ingredients generally represent the majority of what is in the food.

That said, the FDA’s warning also addressed “multiple legumes.” Our readers should be alert to the fact that food manufacturers sometimes list smaller amounts of several similar ingredients, or several constituent parts or “fractions” of the same ingredient. This not only visually minimizes the seeming presence of those ingredients in the food, but also makes the total of the ingredients ahead of these fractions seem to be present in more significant amounts than they actually are.

For example, it would appear that a food that lists its ingredients as “Chicken, peas, pea protein, pea fiber…” contains more chicken than any other single ingredient. But if you added up the total amount of pea-based ingredients, they would surely outweigh the chicken. This is what the FDA is getting to with its warning about “multiple legumes” – foods in which the legumes, taken together, might outweigh the animal protein sources.

If You Feel Your Dog's Food is Connected to DCM:
Based on the FDA’s report, here are our first take-away points:

No matter what your dog eats, if she has any signs of DCM – including decreased energy, cough, difficulty breathing, and episodes of collapse – you should make an appointment to see your veterinarian ASAP, preferably one who can refer you to a veterinary cardiologist.
If you feed your dog a food that contains any potatoes, peas, lentils, or other seeds of legumes (such as chickpeas/garbanzo beans, soybeans, other types of beans, and alfalfa seeds), look at the ingredients list. If the food contains one or more of these ingredients high up on the ingredients list, has several of these ingredients, and/or is a limited-ingredient diet – typically, one containing only one animal protein source and one or two carbohydrate sources – the possibility is good that the food is one of the type that is being looked at as possibly causing a higher incidence of DCM.
In contrast, foods that are not limited-ingredient foods and contain just one of those ingredients, or that have one or two of these ingredients fairly low on the ingredients list (say, as the fifth or sixth or lower-level ingredient/s on the list), are not the kind of diet that has been connected with DCM.
If you feed your dog a diet that meets the description of the foods that have been described by the FDA as potentially problematic (foods that have potatoes, peas, lentils, or other seeds of legumes as main ingredients), consider these points:
grain free dog food concerns
"Now what should we buy?"

- Are you feeding your dog this food because it’s the only diet you have been able to find that does not trigger other health problems in that dog? If so, continue feeding the diet, but carefully monitor your dog for any hint of signs of DCM. Also, discuss possible alternative diets and/or a blood test for taurine levels, with your veterinarian.
- Are you feeding your dog this food because you like the company, or it was recommended to you, or for no particular reason? Then consider switching to a diet that either contains fewer or none of these ingredients, and read on for more recommendations.

Not All Grain-Free Foods Are Under Suspicion
Within a matter of days of the FDA’s press release, we watched in dismay as the issue was reduced to, in the majority of cases, “grain-free diets cause heart canine heart disease. ”

Please understand that there are grain-free diets that do not contain potatoes, peas, lentils, or other seeds of legumes as main ingredients. For example, there are many raw diets, fresh-cooked/frozen diets, canned diets, and even some dry/kibble diets that are grain-free that do not contain potatoes, peas, lentils or other seeds of legumes. Not all grain-free diets have been implicated as concerning as regards canine DCM.

But, as we have been saying for some time (most recently here), grain-free diets have gotten inordinately popular for no particular reason. Many dog owners buy these products because they have heard some vague argument that “grains are bad for dogs” – an ill-informed blanket generalization we have fought against for ages. There is no particular advantage – and actually, several disadvantages – to feeding a grain-free diet (of any kind) to a dog who doesn’t have any problems with eating and digesting grain.

Points to Consider About Grain-Free Dog Food
Grain-free diets are often far higher in fat and calories than many dogs require. In dogs who gain weight easily, there is a very real danger of having to reduce the amount of food that one feeds the dog so much (in order to keep him from gaining too much weight), that he is at risk to become malnourished. In other words, if you cut his portion of a super-high-calorie diet to a reasonable number of calories, he may not get enough of the vitamins and minerals he needs.
Commercial diets that contain grains have been around longer and have been more thoroughly tested (in clinical settings and through common use) for far longer than diets that use increasingly novel non-grain sources of carbohydrates.
As Linda Case explains further in her article in the September 2018 issue, certain types of diets (specifically, diets that contain lamb meal and rice diets, soybean-based diets, diets high in rice bran or beet pulp, and high-fiber diets heavy in soybeans), have been previously identified as possible dietary causes of low taurine levels in dogs – something that is known to contribute to the development of DCM.
Our advice has long been to feed a grain-free diet only to dogs who have a problem with digesting multiple grains. (And, if you know which grain is giving your dog problems, you could also find a food that contains different grains, instead.)

However, we would not want to be on the record as saying “all grain-free foods are bad.” That’s another ridiculous overstatement. There are some terrific grain-free foods on the market – and some dogs do far better on these products than any grain-containing foods they have been fed. Owners have to look for products that work well for their individual dogs – and be willing to change as their dogs’ needs change.

Overreaching by Those With an Axe to Grind
It was bad enough to see the FDA’s warning reduced by a combination of poor reporting, poor reader comprehension, and social media hysteria to “grain-free foods cause canine heart disease.” But some media outlets also included statements from an animal nutrition expert whose opinions on diets are consistent with those of the pet food industry corporate giants; she has repeatedly been quoted as implicating “boutique” pet foods in the current rash of reported cases of DCM. What’s a boutique food? She doesn’t define this, but we suspect it’s anything made by any company whose annual sales are less than umpteen million…

This same expert has also implicated foods that contain “exotic ingredients,” which she provided a partial list for in one article: “kangaroo, lentils, duck, pea, fava bean, buffalo, tapioca, salmon, lamb, barley, bison, venison, and chickpeas.” Hmm.

All in all, we have lost track of the number of times she has been quoted as saying that pet owners should avoid “boutique, grain-free, or exotic ingredient diets” – and, unfortunately, this over-broad and ill-defined description is finding its way into more and more discussions of this concerning issue.

We have one more bone to pick with this expert; one of her articles on this topic suggests that dog owners do themselves a favor and “stop reading the ingredient list!” This makes us absolutely see red, as it harkens back to the “bad old days” of pet food. Twenty years ago, the making of pet food was a black box. “You guys, we are the experts here, trust us!” was the message of Big Pet Food. Consumers could no more find out where a food was made or where its ingredients were sourced than find out where the company CEOs ate breakfast. A suggestion that consumers shouldn’t worry their pretty little heads about what is actually in the food they buy for their dogs, and which is listed on the label by law for the protection of consumers and their dogs, is downright insulting.

We’d like to suggest that concerned owners keep reading labels and educating themselves about canine nutrition, and, for now, limit themselves to the facts that are currently known by the FDA about this spate of canine DCM cases (here is that link again!). Also, Linda Case’s excellent article in the September issue of WDJ will also help shed much-needed light on this complex and concerning issue.


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## murphy1

Very interesting. 
Murphy has been eating grain free since he came home six years ago. Acana, mostly Orijen with a few months of Instinct thrown in. I had his Taurine level checked on monday and was told it takes two weeks for results. The test was $200.00, but he's worth it! The Vet said they had to separate the cells from the Plasma (pretty sure that's what she said) and freeze it. Anyway I will be anxious to see the results. I will let you know.


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## Tahnee GR

murphy1 said:


> Very interesting.
> Murphy has been eating grain free since he came home six years ago. Acana, mostly Orijen with a few months of Instinct thrown in. I had his Taurine level checked on monday and was told it takes two weeks for results. The test was $200.00, but he's worth it! The Vet said they had to separate the cells from the Plasma (pretty sure that's what she said) and freeze it. Anyway I will be anxious to see the results. I will let you know.


Was it a whole blood test or just the plasma. My understanding is that the plasma result is more indicative of what the dog has eaten recently, versus the whole blood, which is more long range (like my A1c). Dr. Stern recommends the whole blood test.


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## murphy1

Oh boy,,,,,but from what it sounded like both parts were being sent to the lab. If it turns out it was just the Plasma and the number is even slightly off, I'll have it redone. Thanks for the info.....greatly appreciated.
After reading the above article, the legumes are way down on the list with the Orijen food.....so here's hoping!


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## Tahnee GR

murphy1 said:


> Oh boy,,,,,but from what it sounded like both parts were being sent to the lab. If it turns out it was just the Plasma and the number is even slightly off, I'll have it redone. Thanks for the info.....greatly appreciated.
> After reading the above article, the legumes are way down on the list with the Orijen food.....so here's hoping!


Fingers crossed for good results!


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## Peri29

murphy1 said:


> Oh boy,,,,,but from what it sounded like both parts were being sent to the lab. If it turns out it was just the Plasma and the number is even slightly off, I'll have it redone. Thanks for the info.....greatly appreciated.
> After reading the above article, the legumes are way down on the list with the Orijen food.....so here's hoping!


Dear Murphy1, I am very curious about the results.Sometimes due to lack of time, I cannot read all on the forum. Please quote me when you have the results. Bonne chance!!


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## Maggie'sVoice

Peri29 said:


> Dear , we do not remove the peas /legumes at all but give supplementation instead. Our opinion is nevertheless with age after 7 years old they are all prone to heart diseases. And accordingly we start with taurine supplementation 1/5 the dose each year, increasing it to 2/5 dose given above until we reach age 12 ( when we give 600-800 mg for 60-70 lbs dog) and continue till lifetime hopefully.



Well, with the vet Dr. Stein that is doing this study concerned that it could be just the mere presence of the peas/legumes in the diet isn't just forcing more and more Taurine a brute force method of dealing with it instead of removing the culprits? That's if it is really that effective if the peas/legumes are left in the diet. If the peas/legumes to in fact keep the dogs from absorbing the Taurine. To me it doesn't seem like a good idea unless the dog needs that food for other health concerns and then trying to compensate for the presence of those ingredients.
I don't know enough about Taurine overall to know if you can even overdose with it like other vitamins and minerals such as vitamin A which can be toxic if given too much. The fact to just give more and more Taurine seems not the right answer overall compared to removing the offending ingredients.


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## Niko1003

I've switched Niko's puppy food from Taste of The wild grain free after seeing no Taurine in the ingredients to Fromm Large breed puppy dry food. It has Taurine, no peas or legumes. He transitioned perfect. No issues!


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## ameliaz0608

info on how legumes effect taurine absorption. Also, Dr. Stern stated that he looks at the whole blood. Below are the ranges from UC Davis for taurine.

https://www.planetpaws.ca/2015/07/05/the-pea-problem-in-pet-food/
Please check out the facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/groups/1952593284998859/about/
They posted a spreadsheet of information including foods that are given, taurine levels etc. very interesting!


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## ameliaz0608

*taurine levels*

see taurine table


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## Peri29

I do understand the point and therefore we make blood test)) and measure the levels.Over the years, we have seen dogs such as GRS & cockerspaniels ( I have both of them) and rescued many of them including setters, that aging dogs develop more heart problems due to lack of Taurine even though the kibble % was right on the ingredient percentage. And what is interesting is that in Turkey as you know we have soooo many stray dogs including GRs & setters and they tend to have less CHF than the ones fed with quality dry food. However, of course due to eating left overs, malnutrition, anemia they have different type of health problems or heart problems deriving from other llnesses in the body and environmental conditions


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## Claudia M

I have yet to see Dr Stern studies; I did ask him about the entire amino acid profile which he stated that he does not recommend to do the entire amino acid profile. Bottom line you have to look at WHY you switched your dog's food to a grain free diet. 1 in 1.65 dogs die of cancer. How many proportionally die of CDM? How much of it is a genetic component and how much is diet? I have yet to see the actual studies on this. Taurine deficiency has been studied since the early 90s. Taurine is NOT an ingredient, it is an amino acid and a non essential amino acid at that. A healthy dog produces it from essential amino acids. If your dog is healthy and on a balanced diet, it should be able to produce its own taurine. If not, and if you are feeding kibble, you have to pick your devil, supplement with Taurine and keep on a grain free diet or switch back to grain and starches and let your dog die of food intolerances and develop cancer.

Each dog is different and has different activity levels. Make sure you speak with a vet nutritionist (and the science on that is quite behind) and then try to make the best educated decision.


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## Maggie'sVoice

Claudia M said:


> I have yet to see Dr Stern studies; I did ask him about the entire amino acid profile which he stated that he does not recommend to do the entire amino acid profile. Bottom line you have to look at WHY you switched your dog's food to a grain free diet. 1 in 1.65 dogs die of cancer. How many proportionally die of CDM? How much of it is a genetic component and how much is diet? I have yet to see the actual studies on this. Taurine deficiency has been studied since the early 90s. Taurine is NOT an ingredient, it is an amino acid and a non essential amino acid at that. A healthy dog produces it from essential amino acids. If your dog is healthy and on a balanced diet, it should be able to produce its own taurine. If not, and if you are feeding kibble, you have to pick your devil, supplement with Taurine and keep on a grain free diet or switch back to grain and starches and let your dog die of food intolerances and develop cancer.
> 
> Each dog is different and has different activity levels. Make sure you speak with a vet nutritionist (and the science on that is quite behind) and then try to make the best educated decision.



It is an essential amino acid for cats and to a lesser degree for dogs. I found this...
"Because it is one of the few *amino acids* not used in protein synthesis, *taurine* is often referred to as a “nonessential” *amino acid*, or more generously as a “conditionally *essential*” *amino acid"*
But it is essential for eyes and hart health. In the 80's they found cats eating commercial cat food that were only indoors were suffering from and dieing from hart issues and cataracts and found outdoor cats weren't and it was the lack of taurine and started loading up the foods with taurine. The fact is you can't have an animal live it's normal lifespan without it in the diet.


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## Claudia M

Fact is that the processing of the kibble destroys not just taurine but the essential amino acids. If your dog does not get enough methionine and cystene in its diet they cannot produce the taurine naturally. And again do not forget the genetic predisposition. The cats in the wild did not suffer from it because they are carnivores and are eating a diet specific for them unlike the plastic kibble. Bottom line the animals are paying for our convenience. For 20+ years while going to our cabin I saw this mix farm cattle dog outside. I used to feel so bad for him. I got some food and never felt more stupid when the farmer said "he does not eat that plastic cwap. He eats scraps from the garden and meat." He died after 22 years and when I first saw him he was already an adult.


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## chicago golden

In my research about this the past couple weeks, it appears to affect all dog breeds, not just GR. I think there is more focus on GR since it's one of the more popular dogs and there's also the "Lifetime study" that has been going on for several years now.


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## chicago golden

Where did you find the normal levels for Taurine? I've been looking for this information and haven't been successful. Also, did your vet do the Taurine test or send it to a lab?


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## chicago golden

Do you cook the meats and organ meats or just add it raw. My 16 mos. GR has been on TOTW puppy then adult since we got her from the breeder. I am currently researching to switch foods. But, all along, have supplemented with cooked chicken, sardines, boiled eggs, etc. Do you get a tub of like chicken livers at the store? Thanks.


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## ameliaz0608

I posted the levels above which is from UC Davis. I had his blood drawn from my vet for $25 and then shipped it to UC Davis Amino Acid Lab. They charged $151.00. here is the info on how to submit it.
https://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/labs/amino-acid-laboratory


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## chicago golden

There's a private FB group - Taurine Deficiency in Golden Retrievers. In the group, there are several documents in the "Files" that have been uploaded from UC-Davis. One is a list of dogs that have been tested for T. Deficiency, if they've had an echo and the brand of food they've been eating. Not sure if this is the list you're looking for. A warning, many of the folks in this group are over the top panicked, as if everyone's GR is going to die of heart disease tomorrow - such as advising those with 4 - 6 - 8 mos. old puppies who've been on grain free foods to get tested. Take what you need, leave the rest.


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## chicago golden

This is interesting because I have seen a table from Dr. Sterns study and it's saying that Taurine levels BELOW 250 is abnormal! The chart and other docs can be found in the files section of this FB Group. Many people have GR that have tested around 205-210 and are freaking out. Taurine Deficiency in Golden Retrievers https://www.facebook.com/groups/1257656451030324/?fref=nf


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## ameliaz0608

Yes, I saw that on the FB page. I don't know what is going on but they are saying the numbers are different for goldens. Don't know if that is true but they need to get their act together. Everyone is going crazy!! I am calling Dr. Stern's office to find out what is the correct info. Thought I would share this from Annamaet foods which I found very interesting. I believe this issue has been going on for years and I have seen a number of other studies on dogs and taurine but for some reason it has never been so "famous" as this study. 
*Statement From Annamaet Below:*
Grain Free Diets and Cardiomyopathy – Food for thought
The idea of feeding a complete and balanced dog food that is possibly causing harm should be
alarming to any pet food company and pet owner. The FDA and AVMA are now concerned about
grain free diets as a potential cause of dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM). This may be a valid
concern in selected cases, but when looking at current data, this becomes a little more
complicated. Of the 77 reported cases of DCM presented to the FDA, 42 of them were fed grain
free diets. All of the diets in question have been tested and a variety of nutrients including taurine
have come back within the normal range. With this current information, it is concerning, but
surely not a complete or simple story by any means. There is a lot more going on here than just
“grain free diets.” There is a genetic predisposition, a GI microbiota alteration and/or problematic
pet food formulation/processing creating this “perfect storm.”
Although many think this is something new, similar problems arose in the mid-2000’s with rice
bran and lamb based diets. The exact same scenario was identified in Newfoundlands as well as a
few other atypical DCM breeds on these diets, who were eating lower protein, nonmethionine/
taurine supplemented, high insoluble and soluble fiber, and high ash diets. This
sounds similar to the problem today: low protein, non-supplemented methionine/taurine, high
insoluble and soluble fiber, high ash diets. This time they are grain free, which may be due to
their current popularity in the marketplace.
Let’s break this down:
Thus far, these dry diets have below 26% protein (as fed) comprised a mix of meat and plant
protein sources. Today, this is considered moderate to lower protein for a kibble. The quality of
the protein is directly related to the sourcing. Although 26% as fed protein in a dry kibble would
be considered adequate, many companies without nutrition expertise may not check the specific
amino acid content of the diet or check on the quality of those amino acids, which is difficult and
expensive. Interestingly, ash has not been talked about in these newer cases, but the ash content
is directly related to the amount of bone in the diet, which is not a particularly good protein
source. High ash in a diet usually means more bone related protein is in the food than actual meat
protein, something we should all be more cognizant of when choosing pet foods. The ash content
may be hard to come by without calling the manufacturer. More concerning is that methionine
and cysteine, sulfur containing amino acids, can become oxidized during the processing of meats
and the availability will not be 100% of what is in the product. In many cases, companies will
add methionine to the diet to ensure the methionine requirement is met for protein synthesis, as
it is the primary precursor to taurine synthesis. This adding of methionine ensures an
appropriate amount for the synthesis of this critical quaternary amino acid derivative that is
important for heart health.
In addition, taurine in dogs is conjugated to bile acids for fat digestion and absorption, thus there
may be some wasting occurring in the GI tract. Higher insoluble and soluble fibers primarily
from peas and a variety of legumes could be doing one of two things: 1) causing a bloom of a
bacteria in the GI tract that actually chew up the taurine making it unavailable for reabsorption in
the distal small intestine or 2) causing a unique interaction in the actual pet food itself making it
unavailable for absorption in the GI tract all together.
This is a very frustrating concern with no definitive solution other than ensuring quality protein is
being used and that we are supplementing with additional methionine and/or taurine in diets.
Annamaet has been doing this in all of our formulas for many years – grain free or not. Those of
us formulating diets remember the same crisis developing in 2003 from rice bran and lamb meal,
therefore when we formulate, we are always sure to include methionine and/or taurine. Sadly,
even in that situation from 2003, when investigators tried to recreate the disease they were
unsuccessful. This showed us that it has a lot more to do with the dog, the microbiota in the GI,
and the processing of dog food than it has to do with the ingredient base. Let’s not start a “knee
jerk reaction” about any specific ingredients, but perhaps examine the pet food industry, the
company making the food, their science and who they have on board as formulators and
nutritionists.
Dr. Joseph Wakshlag DVM, PhD, DACVN, DACVSMR
Staff Nutritionist
Annamaet Petfoods, Inc.


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## murphy1

Well I received the call regarding Murphy's taurine. He is critically low at 29. The Vet suggested seeing a cardiologist to be sure he's ok. He is acting fine and no problem prancing around on our walks. We have that appointment for this monday. My Vet spoke to the cardiologist and he said begin 1000mg taurine twice a day. I've already purchased it and will begin with his dinner tonight. 
As I've said he's been eating Orijen for most of his life. Now I have to figure out what food will be best for him now. 
I will let you know how we make out on Monday. Any suggestions on a top quality food? I always like Orijen ingredients , thought they were great. I cannot give food that is all corn etc and one meat. Please help me out!


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## hotel4dogs

I'm so glad you had Murphy tested! If you're part of the Facebook taurine DCM group, please consider adding your food/results.


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## ameliaz0608

Hi Murphy
I am sorry to hear that about your boy. Don't panic yet. Just because his taurine level is low DOES not mean he has DCM. There are plenty of dogs on the taurine list (facebook list) that have low taurine and do not have DCM. Don't know if you read my other posts but my baby was diagnosed 2 years ago when he was only 2 years old. He is asymptomatic but we are giving cardiac meds to help prolong any symptoms. BTW, I too fed my boys Acana pork & squash & Orejen freze dried. I wanted a grain free diet because grains cause all kinds of other issues. Little did I know that he would develop DCM possibly from his food. ( But we don't know that yet!) Anyway, I researched for months and did find grain free, legume free and potato free foods. These are the kibble choices but I really wanted to get away from kibble since most of them are high carbs and since Goldens have a high incidence of cancer, I didn't want to go with high carbs. Anyway I was looking for a freeze dried or dehydrated food but again, high carbs in them or the bags were ridiculously small, not for our size dog. I found The real meat company. info below... 
these are the kibble.....
https://www.earthbornholisticpetfood.com/dog-food-formulas/venture/alaska-pollock-meal-pumpkin
Also this one, but protein is high.
https://www.instinctpetfood.com/dog...nct-ultimate-protein-cage-free-chicken-recipe
This one has limited grains and no legumes….
https://www.natureslogic.com/ingredients/manufacturing-locations/
ALSO, First Mate & Sport Dog (they are having manufacturing issues because of an increase in sales due this the legume free issue)
Also, Famina ancestrial grains but they told me they are adding pea fiber to their new formula (are they crazy?)
The Real Meat Company. (The Real Meat Company) It looks and smelled good and the boys love it. Here are the ingredients in the beef: GOOD LUCK!!!
Ingredients
Beef, Beef Lung, Beef Liver, Ground Beef Bone, Vegetable Glycerin, Pumpkin, Inulin (from Chicory Root), Mixed Tocopherols (used as a preservative), Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Parsley, Rosemary, Selenium Yeast, Copper Proteinate, Niacin Supplement (Vitamin B3), Manganese Proteinate, d-Calcium Pantothenate (Vitamin B5), Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B2), Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Vitamin A Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Iodate (source of Iodine), Folic Acid (Vitamin B9), Vitamin D3 Supplement.


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## ameliaz0608

FDA UPDATE TODAY
https://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinar...0-2018-DCM&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua


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## wstam

This is my first post here. I have two GR (11 year and 1 year old). Have been feeling them grain free foods. Therefore concerned and following this thread closely.

While searching for alternative foods, came across this
Subzero Freeze-Dried Dog Food: Poultry & Fish | Nutrience

The peas in the 13th ingredient. Does it make this lower risk?

Thanks.


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## murphy1

There are peas, lentils and chickpeas.......so I would doubt it. And i've read to stay away from potatoes too. If it says grain free i'm staying away. I'm looking at Fromm Adult Gold. Does anyone have a comment on it? Potato is way down on the list.


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## ameliaz0608

From the FDA and Dr. Stern stated in an interview that legumes should not be in the 1st 5 ingredients. I'm choosing to not have any legumes (just in case)
*10. What does the FDA consider a “main ingredient”?*

There is no hard and fast rule for what qualifies as a “main ingredient.” We generally consider a "main ingredient" to be listed in a food’s ingredient list before the first vitamin or mineral ingredient.


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## Maggie'sVoice

ameliaz0608 said:


> From the FDA and Dr. Stern stated in an interview that legumes should not be in the 1st 5 ingredients. I'm choosing to not have any legumes (just in case)
> *10. What does the FDA consider a “main ingredient”?*
> 
> There is no hard and fast rule for what qualifies as a “main ingredient.” We generally consider a "main ingredient" to be listed in a food’s ingredient list before the first vitamin or mineral ingredient.



Well just so you know that the bylaws that govern whats in the ingredient list is that once you see salt on the bag, everything after that can't exceed 1.3% of the remaining items listed (so vitamins/minerals/probiotics) So a main ingredients I would be more likely to define would be the 6-10 ingredients on the label unless it's a limited ingredient diet then maybe the first 3-5 items. I would think including all before the vit/min package is not the main ingredients but the whole list. I know there are vit/min but each don't account for more then 1/3% at most.


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## murphy1

Just a quick update. Although Murphy's Taurine Plasma was critically low at 29, today his Echocardiogram was completly normal. I'm beyond happy! After looking at countless foods I'm giving Fromm Adult Gold a try, no legumes and Taurine added. The cardiologist said just pick a good food with grain. Will continue the supplements for a short time.
We will retest his level in two months.


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## ameliaz0608

Good news!


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## hotel4dogs

I am certain that this is a precious life saved by a close, well-informed Golden community and a proactive owner!



murphy1 said:


> Just a quick update. Although Murphy's Taurine Plasma was critically low at 29, today his Echocardiogram was completly normal. I'm beyond happy! After looking at countless foods I'm giving Fromm Adult Gold a try, no legumes and Taurine added. The cardiologist said just pick a good food with grain. Will continue the supplements for a short time.
> We will retest his level in two months.


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## ameliaz0608

Just an fyi, you should try to keep the carbs low. The carbs on that food is 40%. You should stay under 20% but 10% would be optimal. It doesn't say what the carb % is since they are not required to list it. But if you subtract the moisture, protein, fat, ash and fiber from 100, that will give you the carb %.


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## ShadowGolden

We tested Shadow (6 year old male) and his whole blood came in at 184, so it was off for an echo. No DCM, but he did have leaky valves (which they attributed to age), a slight heart murmur and mild tricuspid dysplasia (which they said was genetic). I would have preferred a clean bill of health, but I'm glad we checked. 

He'd been on Blue Wilderness Healthy Chicken - he's now on Royal Canin Golden Retriever (which the Penn cardiologist thought was good for him). Retest in 3 months for the taurine - another echo in a year.


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## Claudia M

Pleases don't forget to protect the liver during all this transition. Don't forget about the carbohydrates and starches what feed cancers. Keep your eyes on a well rounded and balanced meal and add vitamins and minerals (L-arginine, Chromium, Milk thistle etc).


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## murphy1

The food choices are so difficult! I liked what I saw with the Fromm but who knows. The low carb diets seem to be grain free. I'm so glad he's ok! Thank you all for all your input.....greatly appreciated.


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## Maggie'sVoice

chicago golden said:


> Do you cook the meats and organ meats or just add it raw. My 16 mos. GR has been on TOTW puppy then adult since we got her from the breeder. I am currently researching to switch foods. But, all along, have supplemented with cooked chicken, sardines, boiled eggs, etc. Do you get a tub of like chicken livers at the store? Thanks.



No, the whole point of adding taurine back into the dry kibble is that cooking meats destroys the taurine any time meat is cooked. So you would need to add the meats in raw for them to receive any tangible amounts of taurine.


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## Maggie'sVoice

murphy1 said:


> Well I received the call regarding Murphy's taurine. He is critically low at 29. The Vet suggested seeing a cardiologist to be sure he's ok. He is acting fine and no problem prancing around on our walks. We have that appointment for this monday. My Vet spoke to the cardiologist and he said begin 1000mg taurine twice a day. I've already purchased it and will begin with his dinner tonight.
> As I've said he's been eating Orijen for most of his life. Now I have to figure out what food will be best for him now.
> I will let you know how we make out on Monday. Any suggestions on a top quality food? I always like Orijen ingredients , thought they were great. I cannot give food that is all corn etc and one meat. Please help me out!





I'm sorry to hear about Murphy! 29 is seriously low, so it is very good you had him checked out. I had Maggie checked and got the results back last Thursday and her number was 268 for her whole blood taurine level. I am feeding Precise Holistic Lg Breed Adult formula and was on the Lg Breed Puppy until 7 months of age and will be 10 months of age on the 23rd (10 days). I get it locally at a privately owned pet supply chain. You can also get it from Chewy and Amazon and I think Pet Flow. It only has 1 pea ingredient and that is the 17th ingredient so I haven't worried about that but still had Maggie tested. $250 is chump change for peace of mind.
https://www.chewy.com/precise-holistic-complete-large-giant/dp/36242


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## ameliaz0608

Thought I would give an update on Auggie. He had his echo last week and the cardiologist said there is much improvement. The heart is decreasing in size and it is getting close to normal. She wants me to test his taurine again and then we will discuss weaning him off his cardiac meds. YEA!!!!
I decided not to go with the honest kitchen because it has too many potatoes and the carbs is like 40%. I found a company called "The real meat company". 90% meat, no fillers, no grains, no legumes and low carbs. JUST MEAT! The boys love it. It's alittle expensive but my piece of mind is worth it and so is their health. It' similar to Ziwi Peak but less expensive. Of course, I add veggies and fruits and supplements so hopefully they will be good on this!


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## Jessie'sGirl

Months ago, I switched my dog off grain free to a grain based food made by the same company( Horizon). He never really "looked good" on this new food, ears were yeasty and eyes watery. Stools never really firmed up and I was just not happy . 
After many agonizing weeks reading reviews , searching related sites and articles, I decided to try Royal Canin. We have been transitioning over a couple of weeks, he's looking great and I am now a convert to the "tried and true" type of food.


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## debbie624

Hello everyone. I have recently discovered this grain free diet/taurine deficiency and its link to DCM only as of yesterday. It has caught my interest bc I lost my beloved Callie 7 weeks ago suddenly, 3 weeks after TTA surgery for torn CCL and am now wondering if this had anything to do with her passing. The vets suspected blood clot but this new information makes me wonder if she had DCM because she ate a grain free diet her whole life. I rotated her food between Fromm and Zignature mostly and also gave her Instinct Raw beef or duck for one out of 3 meals a day. I also gave her probiotics, fish oil, and other supplements. I don't know if she had a taurine deficiency or DCM. The benefit of rotating foods is to avoid nutrient deficiency but 2 of her meals daily were grain free kibble. I regret that this info wasn't publicized until 1 day after she passed and am very disappointed and frustrated that my 2 vets (one holistic and one is conventional) did not warn me of the dangers as they knew I was feeding a grain free diet. I am determined now to get as much info as possible and share this with whomever will listen as this is a devastating disease that seems to be able to be prevented via diet. Here is a link to Dr. Karen Becker, a holistic vet who is associated with Dr. Joseph Mercola, and her information on this subject. I deeply miss my Callie and am heartbroken. I wish everyone here the best of health with their beautiful goldens.

https://healthypets.mercola.com/sit...ween-dog-food-taurine-deficiency-and-dcm.aspx


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## hotel4dogs

A quick comment about cooking foods and taurine. If there is adequate meat protein in the diet, you shouldn't have to add taurine at all, and it doesn't matter that anything is cooked.
Dogs, and humans, manufacture their own taurine (cats do not). But in order to do so, they must have adequate, useable meat protein.
It's why this has been a confusing issue. It *appears* that the legumes somehow interfere with this process in some dogs.


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## ameliaz0608

You are correct, but also it seems some dogs must need more taurine than others. It's obvious when you look at the pdf list on the taurine deficient DCM facebook page.


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## hotel4dogs

Yes, but I think what the issue is is that they feel some dogs don't manufacture it as efficiently, not that they need more.
I realize that's going to sound like hair splitting, but it really is different and one of the confusions they're trying to sort out.



ameliaz0608 said:


> You are correct, but also it seems some dogs must need more taurine than others. It's obvious when you look at the pdf list on the taurine deficient DCM facebook page.


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## ameliaz0608

most in depth article I have read. check it out
https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/i...Taurines-Role-in-the-Canine-Diet_21901-1.html


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## solinvictus

Unfortunately, the people that have read and commented on this article that I have seen are using this article as a decision to disregard any and all info coming from U C Davis and Dr. Stern. He is seeing and working with dogs that have low taurine blood values and some with actual DCM (in real time). The information given out was not to create panic but until they have answers he wants to keep as many dogs healthy as possible and has made suggestions to possibly save dogs lives. And except for the small family group of goldens I believe there were 5 at the time there hasn't been a predisposition for goldens to get taurine deficient DCM or DCM. Those 5 goldens of the same family were being fed a lamb and rice kibble so again nothing about what Dr. Stern is seeing at this time.


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## GoldensGirl

*Sunny and Molly, too*

Like many others here, I had my Golden girls tested for taurine deficiency by the Amino Acids Laboratory at UC Davis. The results were disturbing, to say the least. Two-year-old Molly's result came back at 208, which is the very low end of the "marginal" range. Sunny's was much, much worse at 52, which is critically low. Both have been on a grain-free seafood-based food rich in lentils (a legume) for two years. 

We are in the process of switching them to a lamb and rice food from Canidae. Unfortunately, after I made that decision, I learned that lamb is a very poor source of taurine and lamb and rice food is bad choice, so another change will be needed. Molly is allergic to chicken, which is an ingredient in most of the big-name foods, so I have more research to do. From what I read, turkey is an excellent source of taurine, as is beef. 

Meanwhile, I am trying to get appointments for both girls to be seen by a veterinary cardiologist and also ordering the taurine and L-carnitine supplements that Dr. Stern recommends. 

This whole situation is so frightening. My heart goes out to everyone here who is facing this along with us.


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## GoldensGirl

For those concerned that Dr. Stern is not a veterinary nutritionist, I offer this from the UC Davis website: 

"UC Davis is fortunate to have Drs. Andrea Fascetti and Jennifer Larsen, two of the world’s experts in veterinary nutrition and specifically taurine studies. Stern, Fascetti, Larsen, and veterinary cardiology resident Joanna Kaplan have been working together to understand the dietary link in golden retrievers with taurine deficient DCM and are in the process of submitting a manuscript documenting these findings.

"Additionally, Dr. Lisa Freeman (veterinary nutritionist from Tufts University), Dr. Darcy Adin (veterinary cardiologist from North Carolina State University), Dr. John Rush (veterinary cardiologist from Tufts University), Dr. Lori Hitchcock (veterinary cardiologist from private practice in Ohio) and Dr. Ryan Fries (veterinary cardiologist from the University of Illinois) have joined forces with UC Davis to collect cases of diet-related DCM (many of which involve other breeds and do not appear to be caused by taurine deficiency), funnel case data to the FDA, and develop protocols to provide up-to-date information to the public, veterinary community and veterinary cardiology group."

This and additional information may be found here: https://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/news...nk-between-dog-diets-and-deadly-heart-disease.


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## Mirinde

GoldensGirl said:


> Like many others here, I had my Golden girls tested for taurine deficiency by the Amino Acids Laboratory at UC Davis. The results were disturbing, to say the least. Two-year-old Molly's result came back at 208, which is the very low end of the "marginal" range. Sunny's was much, much worse at 52, which is critically low. Both have been on a grain-free seafood-based food rich in lentils (a legume) for two years.
> 
> We are in the process of switching them to a lamb and rice food from Canidae. Unfortunately, after I made that decision, I learned that lamb is a very poor source of taurine and lamb and rice food is bad choice, so another change will be needed. Molly is allergic to chicken, which is an ingredient in most of the big-name foods, so I have more research to do. From what I read, turkey is an excellent source of taurine, as is beef.
> 
> Meanwhile, I am trying to get appointments for both girls to be seen by a veterinary cardiologist and also ordering the taurine and L-carnitine supplements that Dr. Stern recommends.
> 
> This whole situation is so frightening. My heart goes out to everyone here who is facing this along with us.


ProPlan sensitive skin and stomach has no chicken and no legumes! We also have a heck of a time avoiding chicken


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## wstam

ameliaz0608 said:


> most in depth article I have read. check it out
> https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/i...Taurines-Role-in-the-Canine-Diet_21901-1.html


This article seems to suggest rice is also the cause??? Think many not grain-free kibble have rice :|


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## hotel4dogs

I think it's the lamb in the lamb and rice foods, not the rice.


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## GoldensGirl

hotel4dogs said:


> I think it's the lamb in the lamb and rice foods, not the rice.


I think it's both. Lamb is low in taurine and not a good protein source for dogs that are low in taurine. But rice seems to be implicated when combined with other proteins, including turkey, which is high in taurine. This is true for white rice, brown rice and wild rice. Brewer's rice seems to be acceptable.


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## hotel4dogs

As you point out, this article claims Goldens are genetically predisposed to DCM. In fact, they are NOT, which is why Dr. Sterns and others were so surprised to suddenly see it so much in Goldens.
From the article:
_"Genetically predisposed breeds include the American Cocker Spaniel, Golden Retriever, Labrador Retriever, Saint Bernard, Newfoundland, and English Setter.  Although the exact underlying cause is not known, it appears that some breeds have either a naturally occurring higher requirement for taurine or a metabolic abnormality that affects their taurine synthesis or utilization."_
When I see things like that, it makes me question the entire article.



solinvictus said:


> Unfortunately, the people that have read and commented on this article that I have seen are using this article as a decision to disregard any and all info coming from U C Davis and Dr. Stern. He is seeing and working with dogs that have low taurine blood values and some with actual DCM (in real time). The information given out was not to create panic but until they have answers he wants to keep as many dogs healthy as possible and has made suggestions to possibly save dogs lives. And except for the small family group of goldens I believe there were 5 at the time there hasn't been a predisposition for goldens to get taurine deficient DCM or DCM. Those 5 goldens of the same family were being fed a lamb and rice kibble so again nothing about what Dr. Stern is seeing at this time.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Can you share a source for that? I'm not able to find it. I can only find the legumes, peas, lentils and potatoes.
Thanks.



GoldensGirl said:


> I think it's both. Lamb is low in taurine and not a good protein source for dogs that are low in taurine. But rice seems to be implicated when combined with other proteins, including turkey, which is high in taurine. This is true for white rice, brown rice and wild rice. Brewer's rice seems to be acceptable.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

hotel4dogs said:


> As you point out, this article claims Goldens are genetically predisposed to DCM. In fact, they are NOT, which is why Dr. Sterns and others were so surprised to suddenly see it so much in Goldens.
> From the article:
> _"Genetically predisposed breeds include the American Cocker Spaniel, Golden Retriever, Labrador Retriever, Saint Bernard, Newfoundland, and English Setter.  Although the exact underlying cause is not known, it appears that some breeds have either a naturally occurring higher requirement for taurine or a metabolic abnormality that affects their taurine synthesis or utilization."_
> When I see things like that, it makes me question the entire article.



I think they may be getting confused with heart issues in general as DCM isn't the issue genetically but SAS is. So I think they may have misspoke that DCM is a predisposition instead of SAS.


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## ameliaz0608

Yes, according to Dr. Stern who is the lead researcher on this topic. Legumes &/or potatoes should not make up the bulk of the meal. The first 5-8 ingredients are the most important. So 13 on the list, I would think should be ok since it is a small % but it also has red lentils, sweet potatoes, chickpeas, so the actual legume % is a little higher but they are still low on the list. Are you from canada? Doesn't look like many places in the US carry it.


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## Mirinde

wstam said:


> This article seems to suggest rice is also the cause??? Think many not grain-free kibble have rice :|


I did a lazy people ctrl-f for rice on the article (lol, very robust research I know, I'm tired) and the only thing I could find was in reference to _rice bran_ (in addition to beet pulp) in high fiber diets. It seems, potentially, high fiber diets are under investigation? I think these would mostly be weight control foods. The only incidence of just straight _rice_ that I could see was specifically in reference to lamb and rice diets.


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## solinvictus

This is just my opinion- After those 5 goldens were found to be deficient on the lamb and rice diet if my memory is correct those companies then added taurine to their kibble. So again since at this time just Dr Stern does not believe adding taurine to those kibbles with legumes, peas and potatoes will solve the problem. Dr. Stern pretty much recently (today) said that the article in the whole dog journal is just rehashing old information and is not helpful with the on going problem.

And the same author has almost the same article on her facebook page titled "the heart of the matter" 

I hope everyone is listening to Dr. Stern as he is the one doing the work on todays problem


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## gold4me

solinvictus said:


> This is just my opinion- After those 5 goldens were found to be deficient on the lamb and rice diet if my memory is correct those companies then added taurine to their kibble. So again since at this time just Dr Stern does not believe adding taurine to those kibbles with legumes, peas and potatoes will solve the problem. Dr. Stern pretty much recently (today) said that the article in the whole dog journal is just rehashing old information and is not helpful with the on going problem.
> 
> And the same author has almost the same article on her facebook page titled "the heart of the matter"
> 
> I hope everyone is listening to Dr. Stern as he is the one doing the work on todays problem


I don't log in here very often but just happened to check in today. I absolutely agree, please everyone listen to Dr. Stern.


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## my4goldens

solinvictus said:


> This is just my opinion- After those 5 goldens were found to be deficient on the lamb and rice diet if my memory is correct those companies then added taurine to their kibble. So again since at this time just Dr Stern does not believe adding taurine to those kibbles with legumes, peas and potatoes will solve the problem. Dr. Stern pretty much recently (today) said that the article in the whole dog journal is just rehashing old information and is not helpful with the on going problem.
> 
> And the same author has almost the same article on her facebook page titled "the heart of the matter"
> 
> I hope everyone is listening to Dr. Stern as he is the one doing the work on todays problem


I know I listen to him, I follow the Facebook group, this taurine thing is very scary.


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## murphy1

My concern with taurine.....when Murphy was found to have 29 plasma level, he was put on taurine supplement. I was then told to discontinue after just two weeks when I changed his food to one with grain. I'm just so unsure! Maybe because his echo was fine??
Any thoughts would be welcome.


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## solinvictus

Center for Companion Animal Health: Nutritionally-mediated DCM

In the link above it has another link. The last one Golden Retriever Taurine Deficiency and Dilated Cardiomyopathy

In that link it gives the information.

Not a doctor so I am just guessing. If the there is no DCM per echo then they felt what they had you do is sufficient. (I would think you caught it before there was any damage to the heart)

Since you are concerned you should contact the doctor that gave you your protocol and ask. Did they suggest you get another taurine test after a certain period of time on the new food? 

If it was me I would retest after being on the new food for at least 3 months.


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## gold4me

murphy1 said:


> My concern with taurine.....when Murphy was found to have 29 plasma level, he was put on taurine supplement. I was then told to discontinue after just two weeks when I changed his food to one with grain. I'm just so unsure! Maybe because his echo was fine??
> Any thoughts would be welcome.


I am not a vet but I would be concerned about stopping the supplement after only two weeks. Did you have an Echo? Did the cardiologist recommend stopping? You may need to think about a retest (whole blood) after being on the new food for 3 months. Something else to think about is where did you get the 29 plasma level ( UC Davis or Wisconsin), and were the proper colored topped tubes used. All very important. Sorry, I just reread that you did have an echo and it was fine. Good


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## murphy1

Two different cardiologist said it was ok to stop, one that is mentioned here quite often. Yes, his blood will be retested in November. The plasma was test in I believe Wisconsin. Vet explained to me that she called the Lab and was given very specific instructions.
I've been feeding a few cooked eggs a week, one can sardines a week and leftover meat from our dinner. Don't want him to get fat!!!
As I've said in the past, I'm feeding Fromm Gold adult. I hope to God I'm doing things right! I've since found Instinct Ultimate Protein which looks very good to me, might try that next time.
Thanks for responding.


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## murphy1

One more questions if anyone has an opinion. Instinct Ultimate does not have legumes or grain....just tapioca.


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## gold4me

murphy1 said:


> Two different cardiologist said it was ok to stop, one that is mentioned here quite often. Yes, his blood will be retested in November. The plasma was test in I believe Wisconsin. Vet explained to me that she called the Lab and was given very specific instructions.
> I've been feeding a few cooked eggs a week, one can sardines a week and leftover meat from our dinner. Don't want him to get fat!!!
> As I've said in the past, I'm feeding Fromm Gold adult. I hope to God I'm doing things right! I've since found Instinct Ultimate Protein which looks very good to me, might try that next time.
> Thanks for responding.



You might think about having your November retest sent to UC Davis. Wisconsin has been having some problems. I had a test sent to them and it came back very low and I immediately redid the draw and sent it to Davis and the result was normal. There have been others on the FB Taurine group that have had similar experiences. Good luck!


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## Vhuynh2

Is “Wisconsin” Antech? I thought Antech sends the sample to UC Davis anyway, but at a higher cost. The instructions to send to Davis said a service like Antech or IDEXX may be used but would cost more but they all end up at Davis. Is this not the case?

I’m getting Molly’s done this week and my vet will send it to Antech. I did inquire about Davis but have not heard back since it is the holiday weeekend. As long as it ends up at Davis, I’m fine with whatever.


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## gold4me

Vhuynh2 said:


> Is “Wisconsin” Antech? I thought Antech sends the sample to UC Davis anyway, but at a higher cost. The instructions to send to Davis said a service like Antech or IDEXX may be used but would cost more but they all end up at Davis. Is this not the case?
> 
> I’m getting Molly’s done this week and my vet will send it to Antech. I did inquire about Davis but have not heard back since it is the holiday weeekend. As long as it ends up at Davis, I’m fine with whatever.


I believe IDEXX sends the samples to UC Davis but my vet sent my retest last year to Antech and they sent it to Wisconsin. I would make sure because someone in the FB Taurine group said they were told Antech sends to Davis but when they got their results it had gone to Wisconsin. The also had a low result and a retest was done and sent to Davis and it was normal. I think on Antech website she saw it went to Davis but it didn't. Just something for you to think about. AND, make sure your vet uses green top tubes.


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## Vhuynh2

gold4me said:


> I believe IDEXX sends the samples to UC Davis but my vet sent my retest last year to Antech and they sent it to Wisconsin. I would make sure because someone in the FB Taurine group said they were told Antech sends to Davis but when they got their results it had gone to Wisconsin. The also had a low result and a retest was done and sent to Davis and it was normal. I think on Antech website she saw it went to Davis but it didn't. Just something for you to think about. AND, make sure your vet uses green top tubes.


Thanks so much for the information. What is the significance of green top tubes?


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## gold4me

Green-Top Tube (Sodium Heparin): This tube contains sodium heparin -- used for collection of heparinized plasma or whole blood for special tests. Note: After the tube has been filled with blood, immediately invert the tube several times to prevent coagulation.

If the green top tubes are not used there is a specific method to follow to make sure the blood does not clot. However, if it is not done exactly right that could affect the outcome. Call ahead to make sure they have the green tubes. Insist they use them. Hope that helps


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## my4goldens

quick question for those smarter than me, if you have never fed grain free, do we need to worry about DCM? And typically can DCM take your dogs life suddenly or is it a gradual thing?


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## gold4me

It depends. Check the food you feed. Does it have legumes or potatoes. Things like peas, pea protein, pea starch, chick peas, garbanzo 
If you see any of those then you have to decide if you want to test for peace of mind.

According to my understanding is if your dog begins to have symptoms that means it is very serious. If you are on FB read Oliver's story.


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## murphy1

Well that is disturbing


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## watergirl

While I think it’s important to follow the potential correlation of Taurine levels to DCM, as an owner of both a golden and Newfoundland I would caution jumping too quickly without letting research and peer studies play out. Dr. Stern is well known in the Newfie community as a few years back he believed he identified a genetic marker for SAS, a condition that has affected some Newfoundlands. Unfortunately that wasn’t the case. Not suggesting that is what’s happening here, but want to be cautious and make sure the gun isn’t jumped too early again.


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## Maggie'sVoice

watergirl said:


> While I think it’s important to follow the potential correlation of Taurine levels to DCM, as an owner of both a golden and Newfoundland I would caution jumping too quickly without letting research and peer studies play out. Dr. Stern is well known in the Newfie community as a few years back he believed he identified a genetic marker for SAS, a condition that has affected some Newfoundlands. Unfortunately that wasn’t the case. Not suggesting that is what’s happening here, but want to be cautious and make sure the gun isn’t jumped too early again.



In general I agree totally. But I would ask this. If there is pretty good evidence suggesting that diet is related to low taurine and DCM and they feel fairly certain what type of diet is causing it, why on earth would you still feed that diet UNTIL all the findings are made public? I mean I wouldn't say all this type of food is bad or that type, but I would say it's worth making a change until all is revealed. To me it's not worth the chance of harming our best of friends over the long haul. It's simple enough to make a change until they conclude the study. They are puuting out the info now so you can make those changes in the mean time.


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## watergirl

I’m not suggesting that paying attention, switching diets or supplementing with Taurine would not be in your best friend’s interest. If I were not feeding what I am currently I might be making a change too. But that change would be made out of fear, the same thing that drove many to make the switch to grain free foods in the first place.


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## Maggie'sVoice

I don't think it's fear other then fear of harming our dogs. I think it would be more fear based if they were trying to scare you to a diet without merit, like grain free since the food companies make more mon3y on grain free diets then normal diets. I think it's more of an educated decision.


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## MilesToEmpty

Got the results for our two boys. Im not really worried about our Girl since she's always rotated between foods. Right now she's on Farmina and her coat is gorgeous.

But the boys, Tex is between 5-7yrs old we believe, and Jake being a bit over 2. 

Tex's history is unknown for 3 previous owners, the 4th was feeding him Kirkland Grain Free Chicken. We switched him to Zignature for his allergy issues. At time of test he was on Fromm Duck and Sweet Potato. Tex scored a 206. He's now on Canine Caviar Open Meadows

Jake came to us on Blue Puppy, (at 7 weeks) and we changed him to Fromm Heartland LBP until about a year old. After then we rotated between LID diets settling on Acana Duck and Pear. Jake scored a 212. Trying to switch him to Farmina but it makes him chew his feet... Annamaet didn't agree with him either... So in between food choices. ProPlan Sensitive Skin seems to make him very thirsty.

Zoe was on Fromm LBP, Horizon Legacy w/ Salmon, and a rotation of Fromm foods. Then transitioned to Annamaet last year and we rotate that and Farmina. Not worried about having her tested right now. She's also a Golden Mix.


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## Sweet Girl

Are those numbers good or bad?


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## my4goldens

Sweet Girl said:


> Are those numbers good or bad?


According to the information on the Facebook group anything under 250 is marginal for goldens. They recommend before changing foods or supplementation the next step is an echo performed by a cardiologist to see if there is DCM.


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## murphy1

Any comment here on Nature's Logic food?


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## MilesToEmpty

murphy1 said:


> Any comment here on Nature's Logic food?


Theres a few Natures Logic on the list for being low.

Im currently looking at this: https://nrgdogproducts.com/our-diets


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## murphy1

I just began adding some Ziwi to his kibble. I'd like to add come chicken hearts but not sure how much to give him. Does anyone hear know?


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## hotel4dogs

This sums it up:
Questions You Should Be Asking About Your Pet?s Food ? Clinical Nutrition Service at Cummings School
And
http://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2016/06/why-you-shouldnt-judge-a-pet-food-by-its-ingredient-list/


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## Maggie'sVoice

It looks like we may not have to wait much longer for UC Davis study results...

"UC-Davis and Tufts’ study is done, just waiting for peers to give it a final review. And the FDA told us it doesn’t yet have a timeline to when it will publish its report."

Quote from this article I saw. Article states the study is done and just waiting on peer reviews.
httpss://www.google.com/amp/s/minnesota.cbslocal.com/2018/10/29/grain-free-dog-food-heart-disease-link/amp/


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## murphy1

Anxiously waiting for the report and the results of Murphy's follow up Taurine level!


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## murphy1

I thought I'd give an update on Murphy. The end of July his Taurine Plasma level was 29. I switched his food from Orijen Original and Six Fish to Fromm Adult Gold. I added Ziwi Peak dried Beef as a topper along with eggs, occasional sardines and alot of leftover meat.
His blood recheck was done two weeks ago and his whole blood Taurine is 307! I'm beyond happy.
To all those here that I , I'll say argued with, that Orijen was a great food, I apologize.
I'm now gradually switching to Farimina Ancestral Grains. The switch has been very easy.

Good luck to all going thru this, it can turn out just fine!


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## Neeko13

I spoke with my breeder, she has suggested I give Neeko & Molson boiled chicken every day with their kibble...and a dollop of cottage cheese, more protein, and for digestion...thats what I've been doing...Im feeding my guys Fharmina, from Italy, as well.....they are doing great on it...I will test their taurine levels next doctors visit..


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## Maggie'sVoice

I wouldn't start just trying to skirt around the issue. Adding cooked chicken is a 2 fold issue. One being once you cook the meat you start destroying the available taurine. The 2nd is you are adding more protein to the diet and therefore adding an unknown amount of extra phosphorus into the diet. Excess phos is what leads to kidney disease, not the protein itself. The quality of the meat will determine how much phosphorus is in the meat (low quality means higher Ash and phos, high quality is lower Ash and phosphorus). Not to mention, if you're feeding a grain free that is suspect with this issue, it may not even help as they are suspecting the legumes and peas are actually inhibiting the absorption of taurine, not just that there isn't enough taurine.


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## Maggie'sVoice

murphy1 said:


> I thought I'd give an update on Murphy. The end of July his Taurine Plasma level was 29. I switched his food from Orijen Original and Six Fish to Fromm Adult Gold. I added Ziwi Peak dried Beef as a topper along with eggs, occasional sardines and alot of leftover meat.
> His blood recheck was done two weeks ago and his whole blood Taurine is 307! I'm beyond happy.
> To all those here that I , I'll say argued with, that Orijen was a great food, I apologize.
> I'm now gradually switching to Farimina Ancestral Grains. The switch has been very easy.
> 
> Good luck to all going thru this, it can turn out just fine!


That's awesome Murphy! Glad he responded and is doing so well. That wasn't that long ago either if I recall, maybe 3 months?


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## murphy1

Yes, three months!


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## Maggie'sVoice

murphy1 said:


> Yes, three months!


Awesome that is a quick turn around cause Murphy was under 40 I believe. That lets some people know whose dogs were affected, a time frame of how long to expect it could take to reverse.


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## cyberbarb

*Food Change?*

Glad to hear that Murphy's levels are up. May I ask why if his level was 29 and you switched to Fromm Adult Gold and it went up to 307, why would you switch to Farmina Ancestral Grain?


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## MKDuBois

*Taurine issue-what to look for in dry dog food*

Which food would you recommend? I thank all of you for your research and advice sharing regarding low taurine in dog food. I am a little overwhelmed with all of the information and uncertain about what to do right now. Our GR just turned 1 year old. We have been feeding her Taste of the Wild since we got her at 8 weeks old and have rotated the flavors to vary the protein sources. 
I have compared three brands mentioned in all the information I've read and pulled out the following information:

Taste of the Wild High Prairie
First ingredients-buffalo, lamb meal, chicken meal
First 12 ingredients-6 meat products, 3 pea and potato products
Crude protein content-32%, contains added taurine

Purina Pro Plan Adult Shredded Chicken and Rice. 
First ingredients-chicken, rice 
First 12 ingredients-6 grains, 4 meat products 
Crude protein content-26%. 

Royal Canin GR Adult
First ingredients-Brown rice, chicken by-product meal
First 12 ingredients-6 grains, 2 meat products, 
Crude protein content-23%, contains added taurine


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## cwag

I don't think the Pro Plan Shredded Chicken and Rice is as good as some of the other Pro Plan recipes. I've read on the forum that Goldens don't do well on it. I use Pro Plan Focus Large Breed Chicken and Rice and some people with very active dogs us Pro Plan Sport. Rukie, my couch potato, has done really well on it.


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## solinvictus

MK out of the three you have listed the only one I would try would be

Royal Canin GR Adult
First ingredients-Brown rice, chicken by-product meal
First 12 ingredients-6 grains, 2 meat products, 
Crude protein content-23%, contains added taurine

My two are on Pro Plan Performance Sport 30- 20 Salmon and rice and taurine levels were in the good range. But I think there have been some that tested low on this as well.

The suggestion is to stay away from grain free because many of them have legumes, potatoes, sweet potatoes, garbanzo beans, peas and are suspected to either block the dogs from making their own taurine or at least causing them to not make the amount needed. They are also concerned with exotic proteins. I keep seeing people suggesting dogs are testing well on some Farmina foods. You may want to join the facebook page and look through the chart that lists many foods and what different dogs have done on them.


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## murphy1

Sorry it's taken so long to respond. The reason I switched from Fromm, after success, to Farmina is because of the info found on the Taurine Table found on the Facebook site. Some Fromm had poor results but Farmina had wonderful results.
If you are on Facebook, there is a page for Taurine Defiency. You must asked to join, as it's is a closed group. You can get alot of information. As I said, there is a table with information regarding those who have had their dogs tested for Taurine and Echo's and the food they've fed. It's quite an eye opener. Good luck to all going thru this!


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## cyberbarb

That's ok. I belong to that group. When I first joined it seemed like Fromm Adult Gold was ok. I had my 2 goldens on Taste of the Wild for years. Then heard about this group and got scared and had them tested. One was 280 and the other 256. So I switched to Fromm Adult Gold because it seemed like there wasn't a problem with it. I don't want to keep switching their food. One has allergies and I don't like to keep changing and putting her through that. Also, to be honest I don't like Purina. And RC for Goldens has brown rice as first ingredient which I'm not crazy about. When I changed to Fromm my other choice was Farmina, so maybe I should have went with that. Another good food that I heard of is Dr Tim's. But I think I am going to stay with Fromm at least until Dr Stern releases his research and the FDA comes up with a solution. It's just so scary seeing so many sick and dying dogs on that site. Good luck with Murphy


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## cwag

My sil's aunt has a 6 year old Golden with advanced DCM after two years on Acana Pork and Squash Singles version. He is very damaged and she is heartbroken. Hopefully it will improve but his heart is swollen and pushing on his trachea. It's so sad.


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## hotel4dogs

I'm so sorry. I hope he gets better.
As I keep saying, diet related DCM is real. People need to stop pretending it's not just because it doesn't fit the way they think dogs should eat.




cwag said:


> My sil's aunt has a 6 year old Golden with advanced DCM after two years on Acana Pork and Squash Singles version. He is very damaged and she is heartbroken. Hopefully it will improve but his heart is swollen and pushing on his trachea. It's so sad.


----------



## watterdog

I have been using Zignature. All of their recipes contain taurine, but.... they do use a lot of pea, which has me concerned. I was told that even though Merrick is now owned by Purina, their standards have remained the same as when they were a small run company. They do have taurine and no pea; they use sweet potato.

Ugh!! Drives me crazy! We all try so hard to do well by our dogs, and then.... we find out the perils linked to a particular food. I have started giving my dogs some whole food (made for dogs) supplements, to cover what their foods don't have. Every vet has told me a raw food diet is the best, but..... way expensive, and almost impossible to have much in advance. After living through earthquakes when the stores have closed, I like keeping extra food on the ready.


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## hotel4dogs

The vets you have talked to must have gone to totally different vet schools than any vet I have ever talked to...



watterdog said:


> I have been using Zignature. All of their recipes contain taurine, but.... they do use a lot of pea, which has me concerned. I was told that even though Merrick is now owned by Purina, their standards have remained the same as when they were a small run company. They do have taurine and no pea; they use sweet potato.
> 
> Ugh!! Drives me crazy! We all try so hard to do well by our dogs, and then.... we find out the perils linked to a particular food. I have started giving my dogs some whole food (made for dogs) supplements, to cover what their foods don't have. Every vet has told me a raw food diet is the best, but..... way expensive, and almost impossible to have much in advance. After living through earthquakes when the stores have closed, I like keeping extra food on the ready.


----------



## Jessie'sGirl

I switched my boy to Royal Canin Golden Retriever formula months ago. He recently had a senior blood panel done ( he is almost nine) and all his blood work was perfect. 
It is honestly a great relief to let the companies with full time nutritions figure out what to feed your dog than to put that stress on yourself.


----------



## jennretz

Maggie'sVoice said:


> I wouldn't start just trying to skirt around the issue. Adding cooked chicken is a 2 fold issue. One being once you cook the meat you start destroying the available taurine. The 2nd is you are adding more protein to the diet and therefore adding an unknown amount of extra phosphorus into the diet. Excess phos is what leads to kidney disease, not the protein itself. The quality of the meat will determine how much phosphorus is in the meat (low quality means higher Ash and phos, high quality is lower Ash and phosphorus). Not to mention, if you're feeding a grain free that is suspect with this issue, it may not even help as they are suspecting the legumes and peas are actually inhibiting the absorption of taurine, not just that there isn't enough taurine.


Maggie'sVoice - you appear quite knowledgeable about nutrition and I've appreciated your feedback on several questions of mine. I would love to understand more how to read and know what the nutritional breakdown is providing/telling me. Is there a resource you can point me/us towards? This whole journey is confusing and it's hard to evaluate/make an informed decision. I have transitioned two of my guys to Farmina Cod & Orange, but we're dealing with some loose stools and really bad gas! I will probably switch again in 4 months after Charlie's echo is done. I don't want to mess with too many things at once. I still am exploring the Wellness Chicken + Oatmeal (as lamb is the other option and is low in taurine). What do you think of Nutro or Innova? And what are the key nutritionals you're looking at when you evaluate a dog food?

My other guy, Duke, has IBD and I have him on Stella & Chewy's rabbit mixed with Royal Canin Hydrolyzed Protein. Now I'm worried about the high protein source and the impact to his kidneys. He has to be on a low fat diet and he is extremely allergic to most protein sources. Rabbit is the one protein source I've found that he can handle that doesn't upset his stomach. I tested his taurine and it was 308, which is great.


----------



## jennretz

murphy1 said:


> I thought I'd give an update on Murphy. The end of July his Taurine Plasma level was 29. I switched his food from Orijen Original and Six Fish to Fromm Adult Gold. I added Ziwi Peak dried Beef as a topper along with eggs, occasional sardines and alot of leftover meat.
> His blood recheck was done two weeks ago and his whole blood Taurine is 307! I'm beyond happy.
> To all those here that I , I'll say argued with, that Orijen was a great food, I apologize.
> I'm now gradually switching to Farimina Ancestral Grains. The switch has been very easy.
> 
> Good luck to all going thru this, it can turn out just fine!


You are giving me hope. Just last month Charlie was diagnosed with a Grade 1 heart murmur and decreased heart function. He has beginning stage degenerative mitral valve disease. I have fed him Zignature Trout & Salmon for 2 years and then Zignature Lamb for 2 years. We tested taurine and his was 194. We've switched him and my senior Golden to Farmina Cod & Orange for now. His retest is in 4 months.


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## murphy1

Hi Jenn
Do you follow the Facebook page "Taurine Deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy"? If not you should give it a try, it's a wealth of information. It is a closed group and you must ask to join. There is an open and closed group. I am on Facebook for that page alone.
They have a page that people include their dogs information ie. taurine levels, what they fed before and the results after switching food. I will say as I recall Zignature did poorly. But you will read about dogs making a turn around with new food.
They do push Purina, Science Diet and Royal Canin but Farmina did great on their table and the ingredients seem better.
Murphy is doing great now and his coat has improved dramatically. He always had awful breath while on grain free, it too is good (as good as dog breath can be).
I hope you see big improvement!!!!! Please keep us posted on this page.


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## jennretz

murphy1 said:


> Hi Jenn
> Do you follow the Facebook page "Taurine Deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy"? If not you should give it a try, it's a wealth of information. It is a closed group and you must ask to join. There is an open and closed group. I am on Facebook for that page alone.
> They have a page that people include their dogs information ie. taurine levels, what they fed before and the results after switching food. I will say as I recall Zignature did poorly. But you will read about dogs making a turn around with new food.
> They do push Purina, Science Diet and Royal Canin but Farmina did great on their table and the ingredients seem better.
> Murphy is doing great now and his coat has improved dramatically. He always had awful breath while on grain free, it too is good (as good as dog breath can be).
> I hope you see big improvement!!!!! Please keep us posted on this page.


Thank you! I did join the group. I still have to update Charlie's values in the table. I also tested Duke and his whole blood is 308. He's been eating Stella & Chewy's Rabbit plus RC Hydrolyzed protein; interesting to note S&C does not have legumes in the top 5 ingredients and taurine is listed further down. Not sure if they will conclude with enough information that the legumes are the culprit or not. Certainly worth following. Duke is on S&C Rabbit due to severe allergies and IBD. I am considering changing him back to RC Hydrolyzed 100% though. Currently I'm blending.


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## Maggie'sVoice

jennretz said:


> Maggie'sVoice said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't start just trying to skirt around the issue. Adding cooked chicken is a 2 fold issue. One being once you cook the meat you start destroying the available taurine. The 2nd is you are adding more protein to the diet and therefore adding an unknown amount of extra phosphorus into the diet. Excess phos is what leads to kidney disease, not the protein itself. The quality of the meat will determine how much phosphorus is in the meat (low quality means higher Ash and phos, high quality is lower Ash and phosphorus). Not to mention, if you're feeding a grain free that is suspect with this issue, it may not even help as they are suspecting the legumes and peas are actually inhibiting the absorption of taurine, not just that there isn't enough taurine.
> 
> 
> 
> Maggie'sVoice - you appear quite knowledgeable about nutrition and I've appreciated your feedback on several questions of mine. I would love to understand more how to read and know what the nutritional breakdown is providing/telling me. Is there a resource you can point me/us towards? This whole journey is confusing and it's hard to evaluate/make an informed decision. I have transitioned two of my guys to Farmina Cod & Orange, but we're dealing with some loose stools and really bad gas! I will probably switch again in 4 months after Charlie's echo is done. I don't want to mess with too many things at once. I still am exploring the Wellness Chicken + Oatmeal (as lamb is the other option and is low in taurine). What do you think of Nutro or Innova? And what are the key nutritionals you're looking at when you evaluate a dog food?
> 
> My other guy, Duke, has IBD and I have him on Stella & Chewy's rabbit mixed with Royal Canin Hydrolyzed Protein. Now I'm worried about the high protein source and the impact to his kidneys. He has to be on a low fat diet and he is extremely allergic to most protein sources. Rabbit is the one protein source I've found that he can handle that doesn't upset his stomach. I tested his taurine and it was 308, which is great.
Click to expand...

Hi Jennretz, sorry I just saw your post. Most of this info is out there though most of the info I have collected is from visiting the R&D and manufacturing plants of places like Nutro, Purina, Hills, Wellness (before it was bought an turned into well pet) Nutura (Innova and EVO before Proctor & Gamble bought them) and the Iam's/ Eukanuba company and learned a great deal there plus reading a lot of info on sites like U of Kentucky, Purdue, Cornell, K State, UC Davis and U of Penn. You would have to pull from a ton of sources. 
There is also a ton of resource with listed studies in the back of the book named "See Spot Love Longer" Steve W. Brown and Beth Tayler. In each chapter what they are talking about is all based off studies listed in the back of the book by chapter and number.


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## jennretz

Maggie'sVoice said:


> Hi Jennrentz, sorry I just saw your post. Most of this info is out there though most of the info I have collected is from visiting the R&D and manufacturing plants of places like Nutro, Purina, Hills, Wellness (before it was bought an turned into well pet) Nutura (Innova and EVO before Proctor & Gamble bought them) and the Iam's/ Eukanuba company and learned a great deal there plus reading a lot of info on sites like U of Kentucky, Purdue, Cornell, K State, UC Davis and U of Penn. You would have to pull from a ton of sources.
> There is also a ton of resource with listed studies in the back of the book named "See Spot Love Longer" Steve W. Brown and Beth Tayler. In each chapter when they are talking about is all based off studies listed in the back of the book by chapter and number.


Thank you! I'm going to check out that book.


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## watterdog

hotel4dogs said:


> The vets you have talked to must have gone to totally different vet schools than any vet I have ever talked to...


What exactly is that suppose to mean? Explain please.


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## hotel4dogs

It means I have never talked to a veterinarian except one particular holistic one,
(who is known for promoting things which need supplements that just happen to be sold by the practice), including a couple of veterinary nutrionists, who have said that raw is better because of the reasons your vet claims, or in fact for any reason. 
In my 15 years researching dog nutrition, I've talked to a lot of veterinarians.



watterdog said:


> What exactly is that suppose to mean? Explain please.


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## jennretz

Is anyone familiar with Purina Pro Plan HA Hydrolyzed Kibble? Duke has IBD and can't process fats. His internist is recommending this food and I don't want to trade one problem for another.

Purina Pro Plan Veterinary Diets HA Hydrolyzed Formula Dry Dog Food


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## cwag

I bought it for my Bichon when she had something like IBD. She was picky and refused to eat it. She did love the Hills Science Diet ZD but it did not really help her problems. She had to be on big doses of prednisone which caused a lot of other problems. Chewy.com is great about providing prescription food.


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## goldwhiz

From reading this thread, I can see a lot of good info here re diet-mediated DVM And, folks better understanding the problem, as more was learned. It was just like that on the two big FB forums on this topic that I am on. FYI more than 8000 folks in the the Taurine-Golden Group and 28000! on the all-breed version of it, both moderated by same set of folks. 

It's really *wonderful* the community resources we have now, to help deal w. DCM in Goldens. We are very lucky that way.


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## luvsvacations

Can anyone tell me what kind of taurine to buy and where they bought it from. I have looked on line at the pet stores and cannot find it?? Thanks


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## carlswans

Raw diets have also been found to be a suspect in DCM.


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## Maggie'sVoice

carlswans said:


> Raw diets have also been found to be a suspect in DCM.


Not saying this is incorrect but that's hard to believe as raw diets are usually 80-95% raw meat and taurine comes from animal protein and not plant proteins. Cooking the meats is what destroys taurine and why it's added back into kibble. If raw diets are linked to DCM it shouldn't be from the lack of available taurine but maybe an unbalanced diet that was concocted (this is why I don't recommend getting a raw recipe from the internet).

How the whole taurine thing was originally figured out was back in 1987, I believe, they found that cats were getting cataracts early and heart issues. They found that these were indoor cats and cats that were outdoors frequently weren't having this issue at all (they were catching live animals and eating them). So they starting pumping taurine into the diets and no more incidences of cataracts or heart issues. Cats require a much higher level of taurine then a dog does, but they both need it. But a raw diet should not contribute to the low taurine diet related DCM issue. 

Maybe prep people are buying the lowest quality of meat possible but even then taurine levels shouldn't be effected. The phosphorus and ash level can change based on quality but not the amino acid taurine that I'm aware of. Not that extent.


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## ArkansasGold

@Maggie'sVoice , if I remember right, the raw diets that were implicated were very low in real meat/vegetarian. Properly formulated raw diets have not been implicated as far as I know.


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## Maggie'sVoice

ArkansasGold said:


> @Maggie'sVoice , if I remember right, the raw diets that were implicated were very low in real meat/vegetarian. Properly formulated raw diets have not been implicated as far as I know.



That would make perfect sense then! :wink2: Again, I recommend staying away from those internet recipes. I actually do a premade raw food from Nature's Variety and sometimes get a random formula from Bravo or Nature's Logic to change things up. I also use the Raw as a supplementary diet to the kibble I feed.


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## dolivegr71

I use Victor as well . Please let me know what you hear.
Its hard getting answers. Thank you so much!

Donna Oliver


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## jennretz

luvsvacations said:


> Can anyone tell me what kind of taurine to buy and where they bought it from. I have looked on line at the pet stores and cannot find it?? Thanks




Per the cardiologist, I am using Taurine from GNC. She helped me calculate dosage.


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## gold4me

My dog's cardiologist recommended NOW and that brand is also recommended by UC Davis(Dr. Stern).


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## Henry's Mum

I don't know if this page is already known, but it explained everything easily for me. 

https://www.onlynaturalpet.com/holi...-importance-of-taurine-for-dogs-and-cats.aspx


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## murphy1

I'd love to add some commercial raw like Natures Variety to Murphy's kibble but don't want to over feed him. He currently eats Farmina Ancestral Grain chicken, two cups a day. How would you adjust what I feed him. He's 92lbs and not fat, just a big dog. Thanks for any input!


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## Maggie'sVoice

murphy1 said:


> I'd love to add some commercial raw like Natures Variety to Murphy's kibble but don't want to over feed him. He currently eats Farmina Ancestral Grain chicken, two cups a day. How would you adjust what I feed him. He's 92lbs and not fat, just a big dog. Thanks for any input!


It depends on what you want to do, 50-50 or 75% kibble to 25% raw. I feed nature's variety raw. I generally just add a couple medallions to the kibble and just take a little kibble out. The easiest thing to do is look what it takes to feed raw 60# did is about 8oz per meal (2 meals a day) each medallion is 1oz. 

So 50% kibble means 4 medallions each meal. 75% if the kibble you feed them you free 2 medallions per meal (25% of a raw meal) 

If I want to just feed a raw meal, I also keep the rear patties which are 8oz per pay. So I just feed a raw Patty and the need meal I'll go back to kibble.


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## murphy1

I'm going to give it a try


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## Genevieve's mom

My understanding is that Eukanuba 30/20 or Purina ProPlan Sensitive Skin & Stomach or Purina ProPlan 30/20 are preferred foods for Goldens in regard to DCM. If I have misunderstood this please let me know. Thank you. I will be switching from Fromm.:smile2:


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## Maggie'sVoice

For the DCM issue you just want to limit and legume ingredients to 1 or 2 if any and none in the top 10 ingredients. There are dozens and dozens of foods that should be safe and if you join the FB group on the DCM issue they have a table of foods that are implicated and foods that haven't had any issues. 



I'm just not sure why people are so hell bent on feeding a food (a 30/20 performance food) meant for working dogs that are in the field working or training for 3-5 hours a day to a dog that is just a pet. Unless your dog is competing or training hard to compete in field work or agility it's sooo much excess for the dogs.


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## ArkansasGold

Maggie'sVoice said:


> I'm just not sure why people are so hell bent on feeding a food (a 30/20 performance food) meant for working dogs that are in the field working or training for 3-5 hours a day to a dog that is just a pet. Unless your dog is competing or training hard to compete in field work or agility it's sooo much excess for the dogs.


I actually agree with this. My dog is a performance dog (Obedience/Rally), but we don't train everyday, let alone hours on end. There is another version of Pro Plan Sport that is less calories: the 26/16 version. This is what I feed as it is more appropriate for my dog and our lifestyle. It's very similar to 30/20 - still chicken based, still has grains, etc. It's just less calories. 

Personally, I think Pro Plan Focus or the Sport 26/16 are better for "pet" dogs than the 30/20. My neutered male would get really fat really fast if I had him on 30/20 and fed more than 1 cup per day.


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## hotel4dogs

My dog hunts. I'm not talking brief runs training for hunt tests, I'm talking upland hunting. These dogs run all out for at least a couple of hours.
These are the dogs for which the performance foods are intended, not house pets or even dogs who participate in the companion sports of rally, obedience, agility etc.
My boy eats PPP SSS salmon, and during hunting season (until he got old) I have to add fat to his food.


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## hotel4dogs

Sorry duplicate post


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## Genevieve's mom

Will be feeding RC Golden Retriever formula. Just got new info.


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## Maggie'sVoice

Genevieve's mom said:


> Will be feeding RC Golden Retriever formula. Just got new info.



Not a bad choice!


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## Missy Albrecht

Yeah I heard Purina pro plan, hills science diet, Eukanuba, Royal Canin and one more company I don’t remember where safety according to a taurine and DCM group on Facebook. So much info I don’t know what to believe or what to use. Luna has been on blue wilderness which has has cases. According to the Facebook group the 5 foods are the only ones free of DCM problems. Luna has stomach issues and does great on blue buffalo now. She got sick on Purina pro plan before. I hear that the peas, legumes, pulses and potatoes block protein and taurine obsorbtion. Any one heard any of this. I can’t believe all the other dog food is bad.. I don’t know


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## Missy Albrecht

I heard this is really good. I am trying to rearrange money to see if I can armors this one. I hope I can


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## Maggie'sVoice

Missy Albrecht said:


> Yeah I heard Purina pro plan, hills science diet, Eukanuba, Royal Canin and one more company I don’t remember where safety according to a taurine and DCM group on Facebook. So much info I don’t know what to believe or what to use. Luna has been on blue wilderness which has has cases. According to the Facebook group the 5 foods are the only ones free of DCM problems. Luna has stomach issues and does great on blue buffalo now. She got sick on Purina pro plan before. I hear that the peas, legumes, pulses and potatoes block protein and taurine obsorbtion. Any one heard any of this. I can’t believe all the other dog food is bad.. I don’t know





I feed Precise Holistic Large breed adult and fed the puppy version as well and had my dog tested at UC Davis and her whole blood came back 363. That food is VERY good and no issues with it in regards to the DCM issue. Just keep away from a high volume of legumes (keep it to 1 or 2 only) and keep them out of the top 10 ingredients. 



It isn't a Grain Free issue but it feels like 90% (my arbitrary number) of grain free diets are loaded with legumes they are the category that is being picked on. Honestly, the grain inclusive diets that have the high legume volume is mostly the exotic meat diets as most feeding those type of proteins are seeking unique ingredients based on sensitivities. So don't move away from a grain free and onto a non grain free without looking cause it's not just linked to those grain free diets.


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## goldwhiz

Missy Albrecht & Eric too.
You can continue to gamble or you can go with the evidence. 

Your dog could have picked up something in the environment, got sick from that, a lot of illnesses are self-limiting. We can not conclude cause and effect... from coincidence, from a one-time event. Same goes for anecdotes/or from what 1 or 2 or 10 owners report, doesn't even rise to the level of a case history report-- that's why we collect facts in a scientific way. 

A large majority of dogs with diet-related DCM were eating foods made by the boutique co.s, - all the rage, a fad... most were GF & used unfamiliar ingredients. These require,*expertise* & research facilities, to get right ... and that's what those co.s didn't & don't have. The Big Four do & have had so for years. Reason enough to choose from them. But in addition, they've NO cases of DCM, despite their huge marketshare. Remarkable and very re-assurring. No contest from the standpoint of science. 

The small co. ERIC/Maggie's Voice just recommended - another example of no expertise, no research. The reason it has no cases, is so few dogs eat its food, so unlikely to turn up any victims (yet). And it's only after dog gets sick, goes to vet AND vet, if knowledgable, diagnosis dog correctly and then reports it to FDA properly, that that his case gets counted. The only definitive way to diagnose DCM is echo cardiogram, very expensive. DCM is a silent disease, some dogs drop dead from it and most are never autopsied.

Folks who do dog shows and compeition obed. - know folks who have been feeding Purina or the like for years and winning, w healthy dogs. And these people often do routine echos on their breeding stock, unlike the rest of us. DCM would have first shown up there if the Big Four were making mistakes in their formulas. 

BTW Hills (Science diets) is the Fourth big co., part of Eukanuba now - also ollows WSAVA guidelines and no DCM

The earth is not flat. You know there are quacks and well-meaning amateurs on the internet. Also, there are folks who've absorbed advertisers' techniques and can mount a convincing argument to bolster what they may sincerely believe in & meld their ideas w. the facts they have at their disposal. Those with big followings are gurus. Canine nutrition is not a DIY project. 

Yes, there may be other safe dog foods out there beside the Big Four, but until DCM is better understood, no way of knowing which. Why on earth choose a co. with NO track record or choose any diet from a co. that's already managed to sicken some dogs.


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## Maggie'sVoice

goldwhiz said:


> Missy Albrecht & Eric too.
> You can continue to gamble or you can go with the evidence.
> 
> Your dog could have picked up something in the environment, got sick from that, a lot of illnesses are self-limiting. We can not conclude cause and effect... from coincidence, from a one-time event. Same goes for anecdotes/or from what 1 or 2 or 10 owners report, doesn't even rise to the level of a case history report-- that's why we collect facts in a scientific way.
> 
> A large majority of dogs with diet-related DCM were eating foods made by the boutique co.s, - all the rage, a fad... most were GF & used unfamiliar ingredients. These require,*expertise* & research facilities, to get right ... and that's what those co.s didn't & don't have. The Big Four do & have had so for years. Reason enough to choose from them. But in addition, they've NO cases of DCM, despite their huge marketshare. Remarkable and very re-assurring. No contest from the standpoint of science.
> 
> The small co. ERIC/Maggie's Voice just recommended - another example of no expertise, no research. The reason it has no cases, is so few dogs eat its food, so unlikely to turn up any victims (yet). And it's only after dog gets sick, goes to vet AND vet, if knowledgable, diagnosis dog correctly and then reports it to FDA properly, that that his case gets counted. The only definitive way to diagnose DCM is echo cardiogram, very expensive. DCM is a silent disease, some dogs drop dead from it and most are never autopsied.
> 
> Folks who do dog shows and compeition obed. - know folks who have been feeding Purina or the like for years and winning, w healthy dogs. And these people often do routine echos on their breeding stock, unlike the rest of us. DCM would have first shown up there if the Big Four were making mistakes in their formulas.
> 
> BTW Hills (Science diets) is the Fourth big co., part of Eukanuba now - also ollows WSAVA guidelines and no DCM
> 
> The earth is not flat. You know there are quacks and well-meaning amateurs on the internet. Also, there are folks who've absorbed advertisers' techniques and can mount a convincing argument to bolster what they may sincerely believe in & meld their ideas w. the facts they have at their disposal. Those with big followings are gurus. Canine nutrition is not a DIY project.
> 
> Yes, there may be other safe dog foods out there beside the Big Four, but until DCM is better understood, no way of knowing which. Why on earth choose a co. with NO track record or choose any diet from a co. that's already managed to sicken some dogs.


ROFL, wut? :doh: 

The diet I recommended had never had a recall, has NO deficiencies or excesses and has never been linked to making dogs sick and has no issues with taurine deficientcy related DCM. Has 100% USA SOURCED vitamin and mineral package ( Purina, Nutro, Iams, Hills get theirs from China) I have raised 3 Golden's, a Great Dane and a boxer on this food without any issues. Even with no issues in the past, when I read about the UC Davis study about the low taurine diet related DCM issue, I had my dog tested and her whole blood taurine level was 363. So to say I'm being wreckless or gambling on my dogs nutrition and related health is until and frankly offensive. Especially if you read through this and other threads I posted in you'd realize I'm not just a guy reading off the internet. 

I don't gamble with ANYTHING with my dogs and have over 20 years of canine nutrition background and have been to the R&D labs and manufacturing plant of Purina, Nutro, Wellness, Hills, Natura (Innova dog food) and the Iams/Eukanuba and have spoken to their veterinary nutritionists. So I'm pretty capable vetting a food for excesses and deficiencies which at the end of the day if how you tell if a food is safe to feed our can present issues feeding long term.

Now as far as what I've said on the DCM issue, some people need to feed a grain free due to allergies and other health issues like diabetics (high protein/fat low carb can help dogs get off insulin) where those foods are working for their dogs, so those people may elect to stay in the grain free food but should have the whole blood and plasma tested every 6 months. Again there is no gamble but doing what is best for their dogs.


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## Maggie'sVoice

Also, my recommendations have been mirroring what had been said from Dr Stern who is the lead in the UC Davis DCM study. That is stay away from legumes our limit to the least number of ingredients and keep them out of the to 10 ingredients. The study is under peer review and until the findings and recommendations are made public, you can only go by what info is it there by the people doing the study.

But what you're saying is that only food from the "big 4" is the only food you should feed and that's just not true and that is reckless to say I'm my opinion.


Oh, and Iams is the parent company of Eukanuba which was recently bought by Mars who owns Nutro and the old Natura company (Innova and California Natural) Hill's is owned by Colgate-Palmolive.


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## murphy1

I'm being pulled toward Purina Pro Plan. Murphy had critically low taurine, after being on Orijen. Echo was normal, had taurine supplement for a short time, switched to Fromm Gold and after three months taurine was over three hundred. I them switched to Farmina Ancestral Grain, which did great in the study comparing foods on the Facebook page. He is doing great on it BUT, am I doing what's best for him?
Can someone throw in there two cents here and tell me Farmina is a great food? Thanks


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## Maggie'sVoice

murphy1 said:


> I'm being pulled toward Purina Pro Plan. Murphy had critically low taurine, after being on Orijen. Echo was normal, had taurine supplement for a short time, switched to Fromm Gold and after three months taurine was over three hundred. I them switched to Farmina Ancestral Grain, which did great in the study comparing foods on the Facebook page. He is doing great on it BUT, am I doing what's best for him?
> Can someone throw in there two cents here and tell me Farmina is a great food? Thanks


Farmina is a new food to me, only hearing about it the last couple years. At it's price point I would never feed a kibble, but would just feed 100% raw (I would feed nature's variety instinct raw). I do supplement with nature's variety raw in the medallion and patties to boost the nutrition level of the kibble I feed but don't feed it exclusively.

As far as what best... There is no real answer. Most foods... You're just splitting hairs I'm the premium space. I tell people to look at what foods try to differentiate themselves with. Like the food I feed... It has 100% USA SOURCE vitamins/minerals package not from China, DHA gold (the side fish get it from (a sea algae or kelp) and BC30 (encapsulated probiotics to make sure it all arrives alone in the go tract, survived the stomach acid). So for me the ingredients are great but the "features are important to me". 

The only true way to answer your question Murphy1 is to make sure there are no excesses or deficiencies in the food. To that you need the recommend table for mins/Max level of every nutrient (I think from AAFCO) and call the food company to get the full guaranteed analysis to compare to the table. I also believe in rotating the for every 10-12 months. There is no good that is technically 100% complete and balanced no matter what the food companies want you to believe.


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## jennretz

On the Farmina topic, I just transitioned my guys off. They gained 10lbs each in 4 months. And one was greasy. We had constant battle with soft stools. Now on Royal Canin Rx (Rabbit)


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## murphy1

Ten pounds! Which were you feeding and how much each day,,,,if you don't mind me asking.


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## murphy1

This food thing is driving me crazy!!!!!


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## Maggie'sVoice

Usually gassy and loose stools are from feeding to much at a time. The more usable and digestible the food is, the less you have to feed. What happens is the dog just can't digest enough of it fast enough and it will be loose and certainly gassy.This seems reinforced by the fact they added 10 pounds.


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## jennretz

I was feeding 1 cup am and pm. It’s a high calorie food. Since switching to the Royal Canin, stools have firmed up.


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## Maggie'sVoice

Yeah that about as low as you want to feed regardless. Sometimes you just have a food that doesn't work for a peticular dog. It happens or there would only a handful of foods


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## murphy1

That Royal Canin rabbit is 287 calories a cup,,,,,that seems way too low. Farmina is 400 a cup, yes high calorie,, but 800 calories a day for a 90lb dog doesn't seem like much.


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## jennretz

murphy1 said:


> That Royal Canin rabbit is 287 calories a cup,,,,,that seems way too low. Farmina is 400 a cup, yes high calorie,, but 800 calories a day for a 90lb dog doesn't seem like much.




Correct. I am upping how much I feed them to 1 1/2 cups a.m. and p.m. They will also get treats. Ideally, Iwant them to eat 900 cal a day maximum. That would be to get down to 75 pounds.


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## Maggie'sVoice

I used to feed Innova dog food and it was 537 kcals per cup. It worked well for my last golden as I only feed 1 cup morning and I cup evening. I liked it cause the last about of food you feed them time eating to let weight and the less air being gulped which should reduce the risk of boat or gastric torsion.

Then jennretz, you're thinking correctly. The average dog the size or Goldens and Labs (60-80 lbs) should eat from 900-1200 calories based on are metabolism and age and you feed based on that.


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## murphy1

Then why not stick with Farmina at 400 a cup. Ingredients are superior vs RC which the first ingredient is potato.


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## Missy Albrecht

I recently learned about DCM in dogs and i had Luna on Blue wilderness then blue buffalo. Both are suspect foods with DCM cases my vet confirmed. I am changing her food and trying to research to make sure the food also meets wsava guidelines as well. I think i am getting Royal Canin Golden retriever. I keep hearing the food is huge. Luna inhales her blue buffalo she’s on now way too fast. that is small pieces. I am bad at trying to picture what the RC golden retriever food is for size. I know its suppose to promote chewing. Is it dangerous if my dog did swallow a few pieces as she adjusts?


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## Jessie'sGirl

I switched my boy to Royal Canin in August, after much agonizing about food choices, and have never looked back.
The pieces are large, about 1" square, and it does definitely require a little chewing. I think there is little chance your dog would try to swallow a piece whole. I find this food also keeps the teeth whiter.
The large pieces are really hard to measure. I had initially emailed the company re: appropriate feeding amounts and they were very good at responding. I ended up weighing the food each time to maintain consistency.
One interesting thing is that our food obsessed cat kept trying to steal a piece of kibble out of the dog's dish while he ate and was successful a few times and did actually chew this food up with his little cat teeth. Now we are on to his tricks and scout him away while the dog eats.


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## jennretz

murphy1 said:


> Then why not stick with Farmina at 400 a cup. Ingredients are superior vs RC which the first ingredient is potato.




You certainly can. It really is dog dependent. My two didn’t do well on it. It’s a journey is what I have found and I have been trying to find solution that will work for all 3 and their specific needs (Charlie had FHO and Cardiac, Duke has IBD so needs less fat and Rocky is senior with skin issues). I encourage you to talk to your vets and nutritionist at manufactures.


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## Maggie'sVoice

The size of the Royal Canine Golden Retriever food was designed to force the dog to chew and show down eating. This keeps the dog from inhaling the food to fast cause the dog to gulp air, leading to bloat and gastric torsion. There byproduct of this is better dental with the extra chewing.

You should see their giant breed kibble, they are like oversized Domino pieces, squared off rectangles.


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## Caseykathie

The FDA and UC Davis in July, 2018 published warnings about a correlation between legumes and Cardiomyopathy in Golden Retrievers. It is not the absence of grains per se, it is the use of legumes, especially peas and pea protein, as a starch to hold the kibble together and as a protein source. Those 30/20 working dog kibbles (Sport) are one of the only commercially available brands that do not use any legumes. But they are high in carbohydrates, as is most commercial kibble.


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## Maggie'sVoice

Caseykathie said:


> The FDA and UC Davis in July, 2018 published warnings about a correlation between legumes and Cardiomyopathy in Golden Retrievers. It is not the absence of grains per se, it is the use of legumes, especially peas and pea protein, as a starch to hold the kibble together and as a protein source. Those 30/20 working dog kibbles (Sport) are one of the only commercially available brands that do not use any legumes. But they are high in carbohydrates, as is most commercial kibble.



There are plenty of commercially available diets without legumes. Also, the reason for the grain free being singled out so much is that the vast majority of grain free foods have the legumes and not as many foods that are grain inclusive have the legumes. So the recommendation is to pay extra attention to the grain free diets (not all are the issue but a lot) since the dogs coming up with the DCM are dogs on grain free foods.


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## Caseykathie

Maggie'sVoice said:


> There are plenty of commercially available diets without legumes. Also, the reason for the grain free being singled out so much is that the vast majority of grain free foods have the legumes and not as many foods that are grain inclusive have the legumes. So the recommendation is to pay extra attention to the grain free diets (not all are the issue but a lot) since the dogs coming up with the DCM are dogs on grain free foods.


Could you name some of those foods that do not have legumes of any sort? Thank you.


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## Maggie'sVoice

All of these diets I'm talking about are the companies non grain free or original formulas. Science Diet, Nutrisource, Fromm, Eukanuba, Iams, Farmina (including the low grain formulas), Nature's logic,Royal Canin, Verus, Merrick Whole Earth and Pro Plan. All of these have formulas or entire lines of food without any legumes.



These are just off the top of my head without looking.


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## Maggie'sVoice

Caseykathie said:


> Could you name some of those foods that do not have legumes of any sort? Thank you.



Also, I feed a food with a legume in it. It's called Precise Holistic Adult Large Breed food and I fed the same food in Large Breed Puppy till 10 months. It has 1 pea ingredient (the 17th ingredient) and had my dogs whole blood taurine level tested at UC Davis and it came back 363. The issue here is diet related low taurine causing DCM. So you don't have to be legume free, just keep it to 1 or 2 legumes and keep them out of the top 10 ingredients. And if you're worried, for $75 you can have your dogs blood drawn after you've been on a food for 4-6 months have it sent into UC Davis and see if they are doing well on it taurine wise. My dogs results came back in like 9 or 10 days.


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## carlswans

*What Should We Be Feeding Our Pet?*



hotel4dogs said:


> Some of whose best of the best lists?


What Should We Be Feeding Our Pet?

I am one of many pet owners who are deeply saddened at the loss of their pet to nutritional deficiencies of taurine or diet induced Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM). We find we are blaming ourselves for feeding a ‘BEG’ diet to our loved pet, as we were thinking we were feeding the ‘best.’ My Golden was not even five years old when she was diagnosed with DCM and passed just a day later. She was being fed a high priced, and well marketed BEG diet. After a time, I now have another Golden, and am doing what I can to educate myself and to feed her the best kibble, based on up to date qualified knowledge on this serious issue affecting many breeds. 

“BEG” diet are ‘suspect’ diets. BEG stands for Boutique Exotic ingredient, and Grain-free. 

 Boutique - A boutique diet is one made by a pet food manufacturer who does not employ an appropriately qualified team of experts to study and formulate their diets. These companies often rely on marketing trends rather than testing and nutritional research. 
 Exotic Ingredients- These are ingredients not classically found in pet foods and consist of animal proteins such as kangaroo, buffalo/bison, ostrich, alligator, duck, lamb, salmon, venison, and rabbit. 
 Grain-free: These are diets that are free of ingredients such as barley, buckwheat, corn, oats, quinoa, and rice. More recently, these traditional grains have been replaced with pulse ingredients (legume seeds such as peas, lentils, various beans and chickpeas) and it is these pulse ingredients that are currently thought to be a major contributor to the development of NM-DCM. 

The best thing one can do is to buy your dog food from a company that meets criteria/guidelines from both: 

(1) AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials)
and
(2) WSAVA (WSAVA's is a global veterinary community, with a primary purpose to advance the quality and availability of small animal medicine and surgery, creating a unified standard of care for the benefit of animals and humankind.”) criteria.

https://www.wsava.org/WSAVA/media/Arpita-and-Emma-editorial/Selecting-the-Best-Food-for-your-Pet.pdf

It is recommended that your food company employ at least one full-time nutritionist(which must be a PhD or boarded DVM nutritionist), that all the company’s diets are formulated by nutritionists at these levels of expertise, and that the company not release a formula without testing and trialing that formula using the feed trial protocols established by the AAFCO. In other words, no diet is sold until it proves that it nourishes real dogs, under real conditions, rather than just having the right nutritional math but never having been tested. The company should do a huge amount of quality testing, and every batch coming into the plant should be tested. The company should manufacture the diet themselves, so it can control the ingredients and quality; it should not just send a recipe and a bag label design to a plant that makes food for many companies. And the company should subject its diets to peer-reviewed scientific research and be able to back up any of its claims with data that is available to the public. This is the unanimous assessment of cardiologist and nutritionists who uncovered the taurine-DCM relationship.

There are four US dog food brands that we know satisfy these criteria:
Purina (most formulas)
Hills (Science Diet)
Royal Canin
Eukanuba

A lot of Dog Food brands have done an excellent job marketing their kibble and their delicious human-appealing ingredient words, and a pretty poor job making sure that they’re nourishing our dogs. It is difficult to find even a single lots-o-stars brand that employs a full-time nutritionist, let alone meets the other criteria. So, you’ll find that when it comes to talking about lower-risk foods, the same companies are going to get mentioned a lot - Purina (most formulas), Hills (Science Diet), Royal Canin, and Eukanuba


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## Maggie'sVoice

All very true for the most part. The thing is that all food will have an AAFCO statement as I believe just sit all States require it and each sku to be registered with the department of agriculture in the state in order to sell the food.

So the only thing you need to look at work the AAFCO label is whether or not it says if it was "formulated to meet the nutritional requirements set by AAFCO" of if it says "animal feed tests substantiate" which means they did feed trials before going to market.


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## Maggie'sVoice

I just had Maggie's heart clearance done yesterday and was talking to the cardiologist. I didn't even ask him before he was talking about the grain free foods and the DCM issue. I told him I was fairly up in it and part of the closed fb group.

The interesting thing he said was about the grain free foods. He said they have seen a few cases of DCM feeding the grain free foods. I told him him in up one but decided to have my dogs whole blood taurine level check and it was will over 350 but he kept saying that it may still be an issue until I mentioned the food I feed and that it wasn't grain free. That's when he said not to worry and with good taurine levels not to worry.

So he is a cardiologist and to him the point i took away from what he was saying was that even with normal level of taurine, there has been some issues with the grain free foods and DCM even with taurine levels in the ok range. 

I was at a clinic sponsored by the Golden Retriever club of New Jersey so I didn't get a chance to really ask to many questions as it was like a production line and there were over 300 scheduled yesterday between eyes and heart exams.

I should have asked if he was part of the peer review or something to know if he had more info than was already it there. Either way, I'm curious if there's something else going on or if he is just trying to spoke people into opening their eyes about the issue or trying to drive up business to get echo's done on dogs. He never once said anything other then the grain free foods. The study is about low taurine diet related DCM. So I'm not going to worry about it but now I'm just extra curious to see what is recommended.


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## chicago golden

*Taurine Deficiency and nutritionally mediated DCM in GR*

Please come and join this Faceb Group, we're a science and evidence based group following Dr. Stern's and his colleagues research. We likley have all the factual answers to your questions. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1257656451030324/?ref=group_header. If the link doesn't show, the name of the FB group is Taurine Deficiency in Golden Retrievers.


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## chicago golden

Many dogs with normal taurine levels have been diagnosed with nutritionally mediate Dilated Cardiomyopathy -- NM DCM. So, you can't be assured your dog isn't at risk and an echo would be recommended. It's the only way to ensure with certainty whether or not your dog has NM DCM. Please join our science and evidenced based FB Group - Taurine Deficiency in Golden Retrievers for all the information and facts. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1257656451030324/?ref=group_header


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## Caseykathie

I’m just not gonna take any chance.


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## Tahnee GR

The FDA has issued an update on its investigation, including a chart listing dog food brands named most frequently.


https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterina...57in3PoEcMqB8-mBTraYSJTbHlGrBsmSOJouEIE0#diet


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## doggymom

Tahnee GR said:


> If you own a Golden and are feeding a grain free formula, please read this. Please feel free to share this as well.
> 
> The first stages of a study are underway with several related and unrelated goldens regarding low taurine levels and DCM. The study will be looking at any correlation between grain free foods, low taurine and DCM.
> 
> At first glance, the issue seems related to grain free foods containing plant proteins, especially peas and other legumes. This lowers the amount of meat protein, which is necessary for dogs to convert the amino acids needed for their bodies to manufacture taurine, an essential nutrient for life. An owner who has two Goldens with low taurine and DCM has stated it is possible the plant proteins attach to the taurine, preventing the dog's body from utilizing it. Some Goldens may be especially impacted by this.
> 
> I have attached a copy of the letter from Dr. Joshua Stern.


vERY INTERESTED IN THIS SUBJECF. CURIOUS AS TO WHAT DOG FOOD YOU'RE FEEDING. I'M LOOKING FOR A GRAIN DOG FOOD FOR MY GOLDEN WHO ALSO NEEDS TO LOSE ABOUT 10 LBS. OCCASIONALL HAS LOOSE STOOLS


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## Genevieve's mom

I recently read some article about AAFCO. It said that AAFCO has no standards for dog food. Anyone else see the article?


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## debbie624

I feed Coco American Natural Premium grain legume-free kibble. But I rotate her food every bag of kibble. 50 % of her meals are kibble and half of her meals I make Dr Harveys fresh food mix with fresh chicken that I make. From my research, it's better to rotate foods to avoid nutrient deficiencies. I also add in sardines as sardines are very high in taurine.


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## forgold

debbie624 said:


> I feed Coco American Natural Premium grain legume-free kibble. But I rotate her food every bag of kibble. 50 % of her meals are kibble and half of her meals I make Dr Harveys fresh food mix with fresh chicken that I make. From my research, it's better to rotate foods to avoid nutrient deficiencies. I also add in sardines as sardines are very high in taurine.


Debbie, if you are still on the forum, please consider joining the big DCM-Golden Retr. group on FB. And delve into the many Learning Units there. They are science-based, what you are feeding is not— so …is risky. Also make clear why feeding one of Big Four dog foods is the safest by far, for now. Or get a board—certified canine nutrition expert to create a diet. 

What matters is NOT the individual ingredients and toppers, but how they interact all together at the NUTRIENT level. Takes special expertise and lab setup to know.


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## Genevieve's mom

forgold said:


> Debbie, if you are still on the forum, please consider joining the big DCM-Golden Retr. group on FB. And delve into the many Learning Units there. They are science-based, what you are feeding is not— so …is risky. Also make clear why feeding one of Big Four dog foods is the safest by far, for now. Or get a board—certified canine nutrition expert to create a diet.
> 
> What matters is NOT the individual ingredients and toppers, but how they interact all together at the NUTRIENT level. Takes special expertise and lab setup to know.


How does a person get into the DCM-Golden Retr. group on FB?


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## CAROLINA MOM

Genevieve's mom said:


> How does a person get into the DCM-Golden Retr. group on FB?


Go the group, select the JOIN GROUP Button, a request will be sent. An Admin will approve your request and you'll receive a notification you've been accepted.


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## debbie624

forgold said:


> Debbie, if you are still on the forum, please consider joining the big DCM-Golden Retr. group on FB. And delve into the many Learning Units there. They are science-based, what you are feeding is not— so …is risky. Also make clear why feeding one of Big Four dog foods is the safest by far, for now. Or get a board—certified canine nutrition expert to create a diet.
> 
> What matters is NOT the individual ingredients and toppers, but how they interact all together at the NUTRIENT level. Takes special expertise and lab setup to know.


Thanks for your info. I am a member and joined after the research was first published. I have a different philosophy so I don't follow a lot of the info published there. I have a functional medical background and choose to follow that with my dog as well. Thank you for your feedback though. I understand that everyone has their own opinion on what to feed their dogs. I did have an echo done on Coco in June and it showed a very healthy heart. I plan to do this every 2 years.


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