# In puppy class, the trainer pinched his lip to teach leave it...is this proper???



## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

I'd be pretty pissed if someone made my puppy cry. 

I don't think that's appropriate at all.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Personally, I would run away from that 'trainer'. After letting her know that her training skills need updating.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Run, quickly!


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## kdel (Jul 26, 2011)

What???? No you are not wrong at all in my opinion. That is just wrong. No way should she be inflicting pain on your puppy!

I would be furious!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I've never heard of pinching lips to teach leave it. I would not do it that way.

There are different ways to teach leave it. <- I use pop corrections on a leash, and this is mainly because my dogs will try grabbing things when I'm not close enough to grab their mouths. And there are specific ways to teach this that do not involve the puppy yelping or getting fearful - like would happen with pinching.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Nothing to add! Except maybe report her for animal abuse. That's disgusting. Run!


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I would run away as quickly as possible.

I've taught "leave it" with a clicker. Very small baby steps, but certainly never pinched a lip nor corrected. I've put something on the floor and put my foot over it, saying leave it, and the instant his nose moves away from it I click and treat. Eventually I've increased it so that my foot is off the item and he still won't touch it. It's now to where I can drop a piece of liver on the floor and say leave it and he leaves it alone. 

All with clicker. No corrections. Tiny, baby steps.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Check this out and ask Bella's mom is she inflicted pain to teach it.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-videos/104110-my-girl-has-mastered-wait.html


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

If a puppy shies from after "training," that's a sign that the training may not be ideal.

Teaching "leave it" is easy to do without aversives at all, much less harsh aversives that cause a puppy to cry out and become shy. While I don't think this method is evil (though I would describe it as outdated), I think you can do a whole heck of a lot better.

You can lay the basics for "leave it" in about five minutes by withholding the treat and providing alternate rewards (a method like Lilliam's will work beautifully). Then, you do another five minute session later that day. Twice a day, five minutes, and the pup will have a pretty reliable command in a few days.


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## Bella's Mama (Jun 12, 2011)

Lilliam and I taught leave it the same way. Very, very easy and effective.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

Lilliam said:


> I would run away as quickly as possible.
> 
> I've taught "leave it" with a clicker. Very small baby steps, but certainly never pinched a lip nor corrected. I've put something on the floor and put my foot over it, saying leave it, and the instant his nose moves away from it I click and treat. Eventually I've increased it so that my foot is off the item and he still won't touch it. It's now to where I can drop a piece of liver on the floor and say leave it and he leaves it alone.
> 
> All with clicker. No corrections. Tiny, baby steps.


I echo this. This is how we taught 'leave it' and it is one of Vito's most solid commands. 

I would run from that puppy class. I'm sorry that your puppy had to be the example for this. Poor guy.


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## Bella's Mama (Jun 12, 2011)

Penny's Mom said:


> Check this out and ask Bella's mom is she inflicted pain to teach it.
> 
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-videos/104110-my-girl-has-mastered-wait.html



We did not. The wait was taught with food because she had such bad resource guarding.

Then we started "waiting" with alot of other treats and do it with all treats.

She has mastered the treat on her nose too 



And as I stated above, we did the foot thing with the leave it (putting foot over food, then clicking). We really rarely use the clicker though.

Never used force to teach Bella. And she was star student in her puppy class and is really great here at home too if she's not being a wild, mannerless puppy haha


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## BallardRunner (Mar 6, 2011)

I had a Golden who was into food more than any animal (four legged or two) I've ever seen. He learned to leave treats on his paws, stay away from the cat food, and catch a treat off his nose without ever crying in the teaching process.

Goldens are so trainable because they desperately want to please -- there are so many methods to use that don't cause any pain. I'd leave this trainer/training facility and ask for a refund.


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky (Feb 22, 2011)

Go pinch the trainers lip & tell you're leaving her!


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## My three boys (Jul 31, 2011)

I would not allow anyone trainer or not to make one of my boys cry I think that if they did when they tried it the second time I would do it to them and see how they liked it. I am so sick of trainers who think they have to hurt a dog to make them do what they want them to. I have never used any force or intimidation on my boys and they are just fine and learned how to be great boys with love and patience. Run from this trainer and find someone who cares as much about dogs as you do:no:


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## baileyboym22 (May 28, 2011)

I'd ask if 1) she has a supervisor. 2) call that individual and ask about their philosophy and 3) never, ever go back.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

One thing I am thinking is - I would pinch lips if my dog clamps down on something very bad and I'm physically removing something from his mouth. 

That's the only use I can think of in this context. 

Before my guy had a solid give/spit command when he was a puppy, I discovered him dancing around with the intestines from a bunny that a hawk dropped out in the front yard. 

In most cases, I would try to trade for an object, but there was no time or a higher value treat than those intestines. 

That was the case where I pinched his lip until he opened his mouth and then I removed everything from his mouth. The pinch was only to the point that he opened his mouth and let me take everything out. There was no yelping.

I then reinforced with "leave it" training using the intestines and everything else as a set up. This was a seperate thing from the pinch. Again, no yelping or fear. 

I use the same concept as Lilliam, except there is a correction for when the dog goes towards the object. When he backs away or avoids the object, there is a marker (I use "YES", but you can click) and a reward.


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## bowdense (Feb 22, 2011)

BallardRunner said:


> I had a Golden who was into food more than any animal (four legged or two) I've ever seen. He learned to leave treats on his paws, stay away from the cat food, and catch a treat off his nose without ever crying in the teaching process.
> 
> Goldens are so trainable because they desperately want to please -- there are so many methods to use that don't cause any pain. I'd leave this trainer/training facility and ask for a refund.


I am glad I posted this. I had never seen this taught this way and it took me off guard. I will teach him the way you all suggested...a much gentler way. As far as the class, I am torn what to do. Nice folks and their pups are there. I would kind of like to explain how I feel in front of all of them so they don't have to hurt their pups, either. But, I don't want to support her and she can be a bit condescending and know-it-all-ish. I could go and not let him be used as an example anymore and take what I can from it. Or, I could call and explain my uncomfortable position and ask for a refund. I will go back to my regular trainer. Timing wasn't perfect so I tried someone new. Not a good idea.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

It makes me concerned what other methods she might be using. Is there any alpha rolling? Other punishment? How does she teach loose leash walking?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think it wouldn't hurt you to stay and learn what you can. Sometimes people who have some old-fashioned techniques still have lots of experience that you can learn from. I would not let my dog be used for examples again, and I might say something, depending on whether I thought it was worth it. If you can get your money back, though, that might be the good route.


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## bowdense (Feb 22, 2011)

jackie_hubert said:


> It makes me concerned what other methods she might be using. Is there any alpha rolling? Other punishment? How does she teach loose leash walking?


Yeah, that's what I was thinking. She hasn't touched upon either of those yet. She has not used punishment in anything else. Still, if there's a gentler way....


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Thing is I see training as a series of building blocks. Each behaviour trained leads into the next. You would need a solid foundation to continue to the more complex behaviours.
There is a time for aversive techniques - I used an e-collar ONLY for snake avoidance class. So it's a continuum depending on the need.
If I'd used aversive methods early on in my dogs' training I would not have the impact needed when I REALLY wanted to stress a point - snakes are BAD BAD BAD. STAY AWAY!!!!!!

I would find a clicker class, even if it meant a delay in training. The basics must be solid in a fun and positive environment in order to be able to build to complex behaviours.

Only a personal opinion.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

There are very few people who still TEACH new concepts using punishment. I can't imagine teaching a puppy something in that manner. I easily taught puppies leave it just by covering it up when they went for it and uncovering when they left it alone.

I could see me correcting an adult dog that tried to go for a treat after it had been thoroughly taught a leave it, although a lip pinch probably still wouldn't be my approach. Maybe a collar pop or push away.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I wouldn't do it for teaching, but I think for certain dogs and circumstances it might be beneficial (i.e. clampers who have a hold of something very dangerous and won't trade).


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Absolutely wrong, never let her touch your dog again. I would really consider telling the whole class you won't be back and why. If you stay I would really be worried what other punishment based techniques she employs and expects you to use. You would end up having to come up with your own methods to teach the same thing, when you could find a more positive method instructor and have the benefit of their experience.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

I was going to post something close to Loisana. I might use an aversive technique to correct Ranger if he's being a dummy about something he *already *knows. Case in point: if I drop a potato peel on the ground and he decides to move in for the kill while ignoring the leave it. Depending on how severely he's ignoring the "leave it" cue, I will match his intensity with the intensity of my correction. If he's lunging madly at it, he's going to get a big old collar pop. If he's sneaking towards it slowly, then I'll block him and maybe nudge him out of the way with my knee to remind him.

I would *never *use aversive techniques to teach a pup something new. Ever. That's a good way to get a scared, confused pup who's going to mentally shut down when it comes to training. Even with my crazy, no-impulse control, fly at my face foster pup Scarlett; I never used aversive techniques on her. Leave it was taught with a clicker similar to what Lilliam posted. Worked with crazy Scarlett in a matter of hours. 

I'd run, not walk, away from this class. Sure, you might learn some things...but you might learn better things in a different, more positive puppy class. I can't even imagine what I'd do if someone was trying to teach one of my foster pups (or Ranger) and made them cry. Probably be close to the time a vet tech whacked my tranq'd horse on the muzzle right after the vet told me I might have to put him down. I don't remember what happened but by the time I came to my senses, I'd backed the vet tech into a corner and she was crying. (Note: I didn't do anything physical!)


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I would *never *use aversive techniques to teach a pup something new. Ever. That's a good way to get a scared, confused pup who's going to mentally shut down when it comes to training.


But this depends on the methods and level of correction you use. I mean I would definitely use corrections while teaching a dog something new. Even puppies. But the corrections would be _what is appropriate_. 

Puppies need gentle or light handling. A slight tug vs leash pop. Even if you use corrections, your puppy's tail should be constantly wagging while you are training.

I would never use a correction on an adult that would scare him or cause him to mentally shut down.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Run away, there are better methods of training that don't involve such abuse.

We took our rescued Barkley (at 7 years) to a "highly" recommended training program held at a local park near our house. I should have gotten my first clue when they required all dogs to wear either a choke chain or prong collar. The instructor we got paired with was absolutely sadistic--he jerked the chains of the dogs he took as demonstrators to the point the dogs yipped in pain. Then he took a little 10 year old girl's small dog and lifted it up to his waist by his lead and the dog was on a choke chain. The little girl started screaming to her Dad and I couldn't believe my eyes. He grabbed Barkley from me right after and started handling him so roughly he cried out in pain. I grabbed him back and he muttered something about not being able to train rescue dogs that may have been abused in the past. Yep, sounds right when the dog feels abuse is continuing by harsh training methods. I went directly to my car and left. I was absolutely LIVID. My hubby had been out of town and didn't believe me. He wanted to see for himself so we went back the following week--I refused to do the class and sat back watching the abuse continue. My husband got through about five minutes of the abuse at the next class and during a heeling exercise he heeled right back to the car and said "let's go". The trainer was screaming at him to come back the entire time. I reported the trainer the next morning. That trainer was gone in a few months according to the club's website. Oh, and my husband learned an important lesson--listen to your wife!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Wow, since I am a dog trainer in Maine too, I immediately get curious to know what trainer would do this in a puppy class. There are about ten great, effective ways of teaching "leave it" in an upbeat, positive way. I would change classes.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I would add, that if you want to make a point and let others in the class know; go next week, without your dog. When you are asked why, tell them that although you will not allow your dog to be abused you did pay for the class and will watch for anything you might find useful. And watch the instructor - if she requests you leave, demand a refund.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Try Shannan Hall at Finish Forward Dogs in Saco or Teri Robinson at Canine Kinship. Liz Langham is very good, but she is in North Yarmouth, which sounds too far.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Sunrise said:


> I would add, that if you want to make a point and let others in the class know; go next week, without your dog. When you are asked why, tell them that although you will not allow your dog to be abused you did pay for the class and will watch for anything you might find useful. And watch the instructor - if she requests you leave, demand a refund.


Ha! I like this idea. You have to be prepared for a bit of a confrontation, but I like the brass in this idea.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Also, if your veterinarian recommended this trainer, let them know so they won't give this person more business and opportunities to perpetuate this type of training on others. Even though our vet didn't recommend the place we had so much trouble with, I called and let them know and the clinic owner told me she would let the other vets know at the next staff meeting.


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## Stressedgoldenmom (Aug 2, 2011)

My trainer did a similar exercise with Wrigley, but didn't put his hands on him ... He demonstrated how to "own" something until you say it's ok to have it ... Basically, get got in between Wrigley and the food and backed him up .. Never laid a finger on him.

I wouldn't take my dog back to that trainer ... I wouldn't confront her either ... She obviously thinks that her methods are correct ... 

Poor pup!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Not much to add to what others have said, except that an approach like that could lead to a hand-shy dog, and a dog that refuses to have his mouth examined. Neither is a good thing. 
I love Sharon's idea of going to the class without the dog!


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## bowdense (Feb 22, 2011)

Sunrise said:


> I would add, that if you want to make a point and let others in the class know; go next week, without your dog. When you are asked why, tell them that although you will not allow your dog to be abused you did pay for the class and will watch for anything you might find useful. And watch the instructor - if she requests you leave, demand a refund.


 I might do this. I'm not sure she'll care. She is quite set in her ways, I think. I certainly won't let her touch Remington again but it is a shame for him not to go. There is free-play time, which he really enjoys. I suppose I just need to walk away. I am quite certain that I won't get my money back ($100!). But, I just don't like her way.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

bowdense said:


> I might do this. I'm not sure she'll care. She is quite set in her ways, I think. I certainly won't let her touch Remington again but it is a shame for him not to go. There is free-play time, which he really enjoys. I suppose I just need to walk away. I am quite certain that I won't get my money back ($100!). But, I just don't like her way.


Is she the individual owner of the training center, or is it a business? Either way, I would tell whoever is in charge that you will not be continuing in the class because you will not tolerate anyone abusing your dog and you want your money back. Maybe if they lose money because of her methods they will do something about it.

I hope you can find another class to take with him.


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

That is just nuts.. we are clicker people here too  happy to provide the steps to teach leave it the positive way if you want!


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

Penny's Mom said:


> Nothing to add! Except maybe report her for animal abuse. That's disgusting. Run!


This was my first thought too. That is WRONG!!!!!!!

Leave it can be taught with nothing but positive reinforcement and taught easily and quickly. Not only leave but demand your money back, write a review and report her for abuse.


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## bowdense (Feb 22, 2011)

mylissyk said:


> Is she the individual owner of the training center, or is it a business? Either way, I would tell whoever is in charge that you will not be continuing in the class because you will not tolerate anyone abusing your dog and you want your money back. Maybe if they lose money because of her methods they will do something about it.
> 
> I hope you can find another class to take with him.


She is the owner. I see that she has many titles and champion dogs, etc. She also trains at another facility in my area:uhoh:. I am going to work hard with Remington this week and teach him in a more gentle way. I will be sure to let her, and the rest of the class, know that I was unhappy about her outdated training method. I am very sure that she will say that I am overreacting. She very much feels she knows best and has the titles to prove it. I will take what I can form the class and move on.


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## bowdense (Feb 22, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> Try Shannan Hall at Finish Forward Dogs in Saco or Teri Robinson at Canine Kinship. Liz Langham is very good, but she is in North Yarmouth, which sounds too far.


Thank you, I could travel a bit, I guess. Would you, or anyone else here, know a good trainer in the York county(ME) area? Or Seacoast NH? Thank you!


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## Golden Lady (Aug 30, 2011)

I would defintely run away from that trainer. As said in other posts, you don't hurt to train. We hired Canine Counselors to come in our house on a one to one basis for our Shiba. She lasted one visit. Then we trained him ourselves without inflicting any pain.


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## bowdense (Feb 22, 2011)

Summer's Mom said:


> That is just nuts.. we are clicker people here too  happy to provide the steps to teach leave it the positive way if you want!


Thank you for the offer. But, by taking the above advice, my 13 year-old daughter taught him "leave it" just today....no pain inflicted at all...imagine that. Sure, he'll need more work with it but he's a smart boy.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I don't know where you live, but I would recommend Sherry Britton at Pet Positive. She has helped me train all of my current dogs.


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## bowdense (Feb 22, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> I don't know where you live, but I would recommend Sherry Britton at Pet Positive. She has helped me train all of my current dogs.


Thanks. I live about an hour from Gorham but it might be worth the trip! I'll check out her class times.


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## Phiddler (Sep 1, 2008)

I wish I knew about this yesterday when I was trying to get a huge attacking Rottweiler to let go of Zip. I finally got him off, but I have a bloody finger.

I taught Zip "leave it" by:

1. Substituting something better

and/or

2. Letting him have as a reward the thing he is supposed to leave alone

Now "leave it" is fun, because he gets something good out of it.

ALL of Zip's commands are positive and result in something good.










Clicker training is definitely the way to go.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Sherry has helped me train up to a UD... does positive training and uses food refusal. Your trainer sounds like she is using archaic methods.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

I still like the idea of pinching her lip and telling her leave if she comes near your dog in training again..LOL!


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## bowdense (Feb 22, 2011)

Titan1 said:


> I still like the idea of pinching her lip and telling her leave if she comes near your dog in training again..LOL!


You never know...if she touches him again at class tomorrow, I might just do this! I think I will just take what I can from the remaining three classes then move on to a better trainer.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

bowdense said:


> You never know...if she touches him again at class tomorrow, I might just do this! I think I will just take what I can from the remaining three classes then move on to a better trainer.


I am a very laid back person but everyone knows my dog and my children are off limits..LOL!


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## bowdense (Feb 22, 2011)

Titan1 said:


> I am a very laid back person but everyone knows my dog and my children are off limits..LOL!


This describes me, too. Funny how that is.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Man, i would not, want that pinch lip thing done to my pup. I heard she was so good, to, try ITS A DOGS WORLD, i like it there.


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## Molly's Mum (Apr 1, 2011)

bowdense said:


> Of course she used Remington as an example. She put a cheese stick on a paper plate in front of him. Every time he's reach for it, she'd give the hand signal for "leave it" and when he kept trying to get it, she'd pinch his lip until he cried. She did this four time until he stopped going for the cheese and shied away from her. She then walked him around the cheese to see if he'd avoid it, which he did (thankfully!). I'm supposed to do this all week until class on Thursday, but I don't want to teach him this way and hurt him. Does this make anyone else uncomfortable? Or, am I just being overprotective?


I haven't read the whole thread, but responding to your post, get as far away from that trainer as possible. No way I'd stay with a trainer who did that to my puppy.


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## Ocean's mom (Oct 16, 2011)

Dog training should NOT be associated with pain. S/he is not a trainer!

We did had "leave it" command training at our puppy class, and it was nothing but pure fun for Ocean to learn. She picked it up within couple of tries. Of course it is harder to "leave it" in the middle of pulling on my robe or trying to get to another dog in the park, but I did not train Ocean by causing pain to her. What the heck!!!!


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