# English Meadow Retrievers central Michigan area



## goldentemperment (May 16, 2012)

I'm not familiar with them, but based on their website, I might keep looking for a different breeder. The price seems a little high for the midwest. I'm sure people will mention the "English Creme," usage, which personally, I don't view as a dealbreaker, but the marketing implication (ie fur color matters as much as temperament) is offputting to a lot of people. Something seems weird about their contract on their website too. I can't quite place what it is that bugs me about it, but it seems sort of sloppy and breeder-centric.

Looking at some of their dogs on k9data.com, I'm not seeing any titles on their dogs, which many people find problematic, because if a dog is worthy of breeding, part of the proof of that argument is in the dog's titles (other proofs include health clearances, general temperment, pedigree, etc). 

Offa has one of their girls (Isabella) with preliminary hips and elbows, but nothing more recent than that. I'm not seeing any hip evaluation on offa at all, besides Isabella's preliminary...of course, that might not mean anything.

This is as objective as I can lay it out, and there's certainly the possibility that I missed something in my analysis, so take it with a grain of salt.


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## goldentemperment (May 16, 2012)

Another thing I noticed when doing a search on k9data.com is that all their dogs in that database have a listed birthdate in 2009. I guess I wouldn't fault a breeder for having several dogs born close to one another, but it sort of comes off as the breeder just decided one day to be an English style Golden retriever breeder, spent the next several months collecting dogs, and started breeding. 

Breeders I've spoken to spend years finding the right dogs to breed, and the good ones seem incredibly thoughtful about this process (and certainly their foundations). I don't mean to be overly critical of this breeder, and I certainly may be way off base... but that was just something I noticed.


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## CStrong73 (Jun 11, 2012)

Marleoz said:


> Has anyone bought a puppy from them or know any information about them? Good experiences bad experiences? Quality of thier dogs (Sire and Dam's)? How do I use the k9data.com website to accurated check out the parents and pedigree?
> 
> Thanks


Are you interested specifically in the "English Creme" Goldens?

We just got a Golden puppy in Michigan, and when I was looking I noticed that those breeders advertising the "English Cremes" tended to want a lot more $$ than the breeders of the more standard or "American" goldens...whether they were field or conformation types.

From what I saw, the standard puppy price around here (SE - mid Michigan) from a reputable breeder was $1,200.

I am by no means an expert, but what I notice on the English Meadow website is that they do not give any pedigree information on any of their dogs. They say they do hip, elbow, eye and heart clearances, but when I look them up on OFFA (by kennel name) none of the dogs have a complete set of clearances. And one of the heart clearances was by a practitioner rather than a cardiologist. Also, no titles on the dogs and no indication of any kind of competition activity, be it agility, obedience, field or comformation.

Also....the contract requires proof of spay/neuter by 12 months of age. I've learned that age of spay/neuter can be a pretty hot topic, and don't know if you have a strong opinion. Try using the search feature on this forum and looking up spay/neuter for a lot of info on it. But the 12mo spay/neuter is one thing you might want to talk to the breeder about if you do pursue this breeder.

When I was looking for a puppy, I called the Fort Detroit Golden Retriever Club's puppy referral contact. You can find it on their website.

Fort Detroit Golden Retriever Club of Michigan

They were VERY helpful in pointing me toward reputable breeders with current litters. In fact, there were two breeders with litters that would be ready to go to homes in August. I was on waiting lists for both. No clue if all the puppies from those litters are spoken for, but they would be worth calling. Unless you have your heart set on the English Creme.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I would recommend that you continue looking. 
Lots of red flags there...

I also suggest contacting Fort Detroit GRC.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Yeah, and with a terrific vet school within an easy drive there is NO reason to only have a practitioner heart clearance. Heck I have had friends drive from the Toronto area to consult with specialists there!


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## Marleoz (Jul 25, 2012)

*more information*

Thanks everyone for the comments so far. Here is some more information. This is their website English Cream | White Golden Retriever Puppies Carson City Michigan
and here are two of their dogs full names for the k9 website
Oakshire Bradley James and Romantika Iz Stolisty Urala 

Those that already replied can you take a look at these names and tell me what you see?


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## Marleoz (Jul 25, 2012)

*both parents on site*

I just read that having both parents on site is a bad thing? Why is that?


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## goldentemperment (May 16, 2012)

As a lay person, I wouldn't necessarily fault a breeder for owning both the sire and the dam. I'd question if an unaltered boy could get proper socializatin being surrounded by a bunch of girls, but I'm sure there are ways to make that work. From my conversations with breeders, I think a big argument for finding an external sire or dam would be because they're not really improving their foundation if they don't go outside of their own lines. And they really walk the line between breeder and puppy mill when all they're really doing is breeding their own dogs with one another. I'm not sure if others could provide other reasons why a breeder shouldn't (or wouldn't want to) own both the male and the female.


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## Marleoz (Jul 25, 2012)

CStrong73 said:


> Are you interested specifically in the "English Creme" Goldens?
> 
> We just got a Golden puppy in Michigan, and when I was looking I noticed that those breeders advertising the "English Cremes" tended to want a lot more $$ than the breeders of the more standard or "American" goldens...whether they were field or conformation types.
> 
> ...


How do you check the OFFA site just based on the kennel name? I can't find that.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Recommend you follow the great advice above and contact the Fort Detroit GRC--clearances are spotty at best on the English Meadow Retrievers.


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## Marleoz (Jul 25, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> Recommend you follow the great advice above and contact the Fort Detroit GRC--clearances are spotty at best on the English Meadow Retrievers.


Yes I did call them and recieved some good information.


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## Marleoz (Jul 25, 2012)

*age of Dam and Sire and number of litters*

Wondering if age of Sire and Dam and number of litters is important? I did see that it's recommended that both parents be 2 years or older. What age is too old to breed? Also is number of litter for the Dam a factor?


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## Marleoz (Jul 25, 2012)

*Final clearances?*

Sorry all of these questions keep coming to me. What is final clearances? Is that somethign that happens at a certain age or do they need to be cleared on the 4 every year?


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

If you spend some time reading the stickies in this section "Choosing a Golden Retriever Breeder & Puppy" you'll find the information you're looking for. Also, if you contact the GR Club that has been referenced many times, they'll also be able to assist you.


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## CStrong73 (Jun 11, 2012)

Marleoz said:


> Sorry all of these questions keep coming to me. What is final clearances? Is that somethign that happens at a certain age or do they need to be cleared on the 4 every year?


Preliminary hip and elbows can be done prior to two years, but I believe final clearances on hips and elbows must be done after the dog reaches two years of age.

Eyes should be redone every year.

As for offa.org with the kennel name, I just typed in English Meadows in the name search box and it pops up with all dogs with that in their name.


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## Mosby's Mom (Oct 19, 2011)

Your age and final clearances questions are related, because you need to wait until the dam and sire have final hip/elbow clearances at age 2 (not prelim clearances that can be done before 2) before breeding. Therefore, a dam/sire should never be bred before 2. Hip and elbow clearances are only done once (unless the breeder does prelim and final, in which they would be done twice). Other clearances are done done at other ages - heart at age 1 and that is only done once, and CERF should be done yearly.


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## Marleoz (Jul 25, 2012)

Mosby's Mom said:


> Your age and final clearances questions are related, because you need to wait until the dam and sire have final hip/elbow clearances at age 2 (not prelim clearances that can be done before 2) before breeding. Therefore, a dam/sire should never be bred before 2. Hip and elbow clearances are only done once (unless the breeder does prelim and final, in which they would be done twice). Other clearances are done done at other ages - heart at age 1 and that is only done once, and CERF should be done yearly.


Great information thank you!!!


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## Marleoz (Jul 25, 2012)

*Correction on the moms name*

So the mom is from Russia and her name is Romantika Iz Stolitsy Urala and the dad is Oakshire Bradley James. Can anyone help me out now knowing the correct names. I don't really know what I should be looking for.

I know some of the earlier posts said red flags but please take another look now that I have the proper spelling of the names.

Thanks


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The dam has an outdated eye clearance and a heart clearance, no hips or elbows on OFA. The sire of the litter has all four clearances, but the eye clearance is not current. He has pups listed on OFA, one with prelim clear hip and elbow clearance, one with clear elbows and hips, and one with only an elbow clearance(so likely hips did not pass).


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Kelore Goldens is now in Michigan. Check them out!


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

I think you should back away, far far away from these people. It doesn't seem like a good breeder, to me. Find a more reputable breeder in your area, please.


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## allisonk73 (Jan 16, 2013)

For what it's worth I got my pup from this breeder and I'm beyond happy with her. We looked for many months at different sires, dams, and pups and found a wonderful 5 months old pup in April of 2012. She's now just over a year old and is a beautiful, well behaved girl. I own and run a company that organizes youth programs and specifically wanted a pup with a temperament that would be adequate for being around the children so that I could take her to work with me. The kids love her and she loves them. I'm now working with her to train her as a therapy dog as well as I began taking her to the nursing home to visit my grandmother and many of the residents just light up when they see that she's come to visit. Your mileage may vary, but I'm happy. She's easy going, very trainable, great around the kids (ages 2-16) and elderly, and has been very healthy (no allergies, joint problems, etc.).


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

AllisonK thank you for sharing your experience. All the things you are talking about are why I LOVE this breed! I think my girl is about the same age as yours. She is so smart it is amazing. We actually took and passed the CGC at 7 months on the fly. We were showing in conformation and a friend of mine said they had a slot open right right before hers. We literally jogged right from the breed ring to the evaluator, borrowed a buckle collar and nailed it.

I hope you have many happy and healthy years with your girl.

I really do wish that the information on the web site was more clear. Honestly, you can not verify much of the clearances she is stating she has on many of her dogs. It would be very helpful to have the registered name in addition to the call name as it would remedy the lack of verifiable clearances. She has a Bradley x Spring litter coming up and I was not able to find Spring at all and I tried everything I could think of. It makes it very difficult for puppy buyers who need to do their due diligence on clearance verification when just call names are given. I am hoping they are really doing the core four as they state on the website, but no matter who you buy from _*always*_ verify the clearances.

Personally, for the asking price I would prefer full clearences _and_ that the parents were doing something like UKC shows, obiedence, field, agility, tracking, or rally.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

And still, even with all the clearances and the titles of the parents for 5 generations etc sometimes is just the luck of the draw.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> And still, even with all the clearances and the titles of the parents for 5 generations etc sometimes is just the luck of the draw.


All the more reason to shave the dice, stack the deck, and count the cards in every conceivable way to ensure the dog has proper temperament and lives a good long age free from health issues.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> All the more reason to shave the dice, stack the deck, and count the cards in every conceivable way to ensure the dog has proper temperament and lives a good long age free from health issues.


No, it is what it is - The Luck of the Draw. Nothing is actually guaranteed!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> No, it is what it is - The Luck of the Draw. Nothing is actually guaranteed!


Seriously? You think a 20% chance of HD is the same risk as a 10% chance? It all comes down to luck? I agree that any dog, no matter how careful you are, can still end up with a hereditary condition, but saying it's the luck of the draw implies that it's not worth shaving your odds.

When you go to a casino and see the millions they're raking in, it's because the odds on each game are in the house's favor. The occasional gambler walks out with a big payoff, but the house wins, overall, vastly more money from the customers than the customers ever will from the house. It's the luck of the draw, but in the long run, the house wins huge.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

sorry tippy - I don't gamble so I will let others entertain your casino analogy. 
The only way a reputable breeder guarantees the health is by offering to take that pup back. Sorry, I do not do that either.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> sorry tippy - I don't gamble so I will let others entertain your casino analogy.
> The only way a reputable breeder guarantees the health is by offering to take that pup back. Sorry, I do not do that either.


Nobody can guarantee that a puppy will be healthy, and I agree that exchanging a puppy isn't a realistic way to deal with hereditary disease. My point is simply that not all events involving luck are equal, and failing to stack the odds in a puppy's favor is unethical.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> sorry tippy - I don't gamble so I will let others entertain your casino analogy.
> The only way a reputable breeder guarantees the health is by offering to take that pup back. Sorry, I do not do that either.


Claudia you are quite incorrect... a reputable breeder does not take the puppy back. That is a red flag for a not reputable breeder because they know that nobody will do that. A reputable breeder will take a puppy back at any time for any reason because we are responsible for that puppy for life but when it comes to health we do not ask for the puppy back. My Bing is an example when they found out he was sick before I realized that he was being badly neglected, we offered tthem all of their money back, to cover their current expenses and to help them with surgery if that is what was decided on and they did not have to give him back to us. As time went on as we were dealing with this, we realized he was being neglected badly and we did encourage them to give him back to us which they did and I never heard from them again.....


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> Nobody can guarantee that a puppy will be healthy, and I agree that exchanging a puppy isn't a realistic way to deal with hereditary disease. My point is simply that not all events involving luck are equal, and failing to stack the odds in a puppy's favor is unethical.


Breeding any dog with known diseases is unethical no matter the breed. 
And yes - to paraphrase you - not all events involving luck are equal. Reason why even reputable breeders have bad litters, problem pups within a litter...etc no matter how many is they dotted and how many ts they crossed. Which brings me back to my conclusion: it is the luck of the draw!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> Breeding any dog with known diseases is unethical no matter the breed.
> And yes - to paraphrase you - not all events involving luck are equal. Reason why even reputable breeders have bad litters, problem pups within a litter...etc no matter how many is they dotted and how many ts they crossed. Which brings me back to my conclusion: it is the luck of the draw!


Are you trying to excuse people who breed without full clearances? Because that's what it sounds like. If you aren't, then I don't get your point.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Once again - *offering to take a puppy back* is totally different from* taking* the puppy back.
Shalva - from your experience not all your dogs from the same litter were healthy. Nothing you could have done to prevent it. Health is not guaranteed. 
tippy - are you suggesting that all clearances automatically mean guaranteed health?

Sometimes we tend to get carried away in science and standard and forget that life is not just that. I spent tens of thousands on a reputable pup. I loved him and love him still. Had all clearances and titles attached to both parents, grandparents, great grandparents etc. I will never blame the breeder. It was simply bad luck. Breeder offered to take him back, reimburse etc. exactly what a reputable breeder would do. *It wasn't her fault. It's LIFE *


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> tippy - are you suggesting that all clearances automatically mean guaranteed health?


I did not say that, nor can anything I said be possibly taken that way.

I said that you could stack the deck in a puppy's favor by doing clearances, and that it was unethical not to use them.



Claudia M said:


> Sometimes we tend to get carried away in science and standard and forget that life is not just that. I spent tens of thousands on a reputable pup. I loved him and love him still. Had all clearances and titles attached to both parents, grandparents, great grandparents etc. I will never blame the breeder. It was simply bad luck. Breeder offered to take him back, reimburse etc. exactly what a reputable breeder would do. *It wasn't her fault. It's LIFE *


Yes. It can still happen, no matter what you do. But that doesn't mean it's ethical to cut corners.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

black and white thinking ... it amazes me 

seatbelts save lives 
some people die wearing their seatbelt 
I won't wear my seatbelt because someone wearing a seatbelt died 
ignoring the fact that seatbelts save many more than not 

black and white thinking


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

NO ONE said it is ethical to cut corners. But it is just as unethical not to disclose that no matter what health is NOT guaranteed as many on this forum tend to do.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Wow... The things reputable breeders try to do for the breed and it means nothing I guess. So, I have asked you this before Claudia, but you never answered. So, do you think that reputable breeders should breed and not worry about hereditary illnesses/clearances? Why in your opinion are clearances not important? This is an honest question.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Breeding any dog with known diseases is unethical no matter the breed..........


With all due respect, why do you believe it is not just as unethical to breed a dog without first checking for diseases or structural problems? I don't think anyone is saying that clearances are an iron clad guarantee. I don't understand why you're going down this road.




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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

kfayard said:


> Wow... The things reputable breeders try to do for the breed and it means nothing I guess. So, I have asked you this before Claudia, but you never answered. So, do you think that reputable breeders should breed and not worry about hereditary illnesses/clearances? Why in your opinion are clearances not important? This is an honest question.


Never said that - stop putting words in my mouth. However, just because it is a reputable breeder and it does all clearances it does not mean that people will have a healthy pup. 

We paid high dollar for a pup that came with all clearances at the time from a very reputable breeder and ended up with one health issue over the other. Once again I do not blame the breeder but I want people not to have overly high expectations as we did. 

I simply want to make sure that people do understand that.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I think everyone understands that with a living and breathing being there is no guarantee. Particularly when external factors can impact a puppy's health and growth. I have also had a puppy (our Chloe) who came from generations of health clearances and ended up with moderate HD (although I think that was a kind rating since our radiologist said she thought it was severe) with skin issues. Her HD was causing so many issues for her in living in a multi-dog household, that the best thing to do was have her be an only dog and live with my parents. It has worked out well since we see her regularly, but it was devastating for me and my husband. 

Even after going through that experience with Chloe, I will never attempt to minimize the importance of health clearances nor would I try to be a pessimist every time someone mentions health clearances stacking the deck in a puppy's favor. It's just unnecessary and unsuspecting puppy buyers posting and perusing these forums read it as "oh, I guess health clearances don't matter!" I don't think that's your intent at all, but you need to understand how it's being interpreted.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Nairb said:


> With all due respect, why do you believe it is not just as unethical to breed a dog without first checking for diseases or structural problems? I don't think anyone is saying that clearances are an iron clad guarantee. I don't understand why you're going down this road.


I simply want people to know that there is no guarantee. Unless you find something wrong with that statement?
It wasn't for us and many other people on this forum.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I think everyone understands that with a living and breathing being there is no guarantee. Particularly when external factors can impact a puppy's health and growth. I have also had a puppy (our Chloe) who came from generations of health clearances and ended up with moderate HD (although I think that was a kind rating since our radiologist said she thought it was severe) with skin issues. Her HD was causing so many issues for her in living in a multi-dog household, that the best thing to do was have her be an only dog and live with my parents. It has worked out well since we see her regularly, but it was devastating for me and my husband.
> 
> Even after going through that experience with Chloe, I will never attempt to minimize the importance of health clearances nor would I try to be a pessimist every time someone mentions health clearances stacking the deck in a puppy's favor. It's just unnecessary and unsuspecting puppy buyers posting and perusing these forums read it as "oh, I guess health clearances don't matter!" I don't think that's your intent at all, but you need to understand how it's being interpreted.


I am glad you get to see Chloe. We were somewhat more lucky. We got to see our pup until the day he died in May 2005. He licked my hand with his last breath. DH went thru 8 years of seizures out of which 2 were petite mal seizures. That was on top of the bad hips and allergies. He still wakes up at night thinking "Oh no another seizure", and after him DH would not train another one. He buried all training books and equipment that he never even had a chance to use with Troopie. 

I would not advocate against health clearances, but I would advocate that a pup is a family member and life is not always rosy and they will not just pass thru shows and bring titles home (as described above by another member).

I want people to know that there is no guarantee and better think twice before they make that commitment to bring that pup home.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> I simply want people to know that there is no guarantee. Unless you find something wrong with that statement?
> It wasn't for us and many other people on this forum.


I don't believe I've ever seen one of our members state or even imply that 'clearances=guaranteed good health'. The deal here is that we do not give the appearance that we ever support a breeder who doesn't take every possible opportunity, to minimize the occurrence of hereditary health issues in the puppies they bring into this world. 

Following the GRCA code of ethics is the most basic way of working toward the goal of producing as few Goldens as possible with the horrible health problems that we can now test for. No, having the best odds possible won't save every single dog owner from grief. *But by reducing the percentages of dogs born with these issues it does guarantee that a smaller number of dogs will suffer down the road - and that is really the point. * The statistics are in black and white on OFA's website. I've learned a lot listening to some of these folks and this is one of the things I am most grateful for becoming informed - health issues.

http://www.offa.org/ed_faqs.html


Example 1:

Examination of the OFA database reveals the following mating probability results for 13,151 breeding pairs of dogs with known elbow status:

Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED

Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED

Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED

In this very large breeding study (primarily Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, and German Shepherd Dogs), the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected. In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1% - 31.3%), one would find few circumstances in which progress can be made by breeding a dog affected with ED.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

What is the probability of Excellent Hips bred with Normal Hips to give Bad Hips? 
What is the probability of your pup to develop seizures at a young age?

Do you not agree that people need to make not only informed but also realistic decisions and think twice before committing to bring a puppy home? 

Some people will get the end of the "probability stick" and they need to be aware. 

I give the breeder all the credit, while our pups father has 121 offsprings on OFA (alone) after our pup's birth it does not show anymore breeding with the same female dog - at least on the OFA. And YES - that is EXACTLY what a reputable breeder would do. They would stop breeding to that particular combination.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

http://www.offa.org/pdf/monograph_2012_web.pdf

Page 8 & 9 

I'm sorry, the tables won't copy, but the information is extremely interesting and worth your time in reading. And I absolutely agree that people need to make an informed decision when they make a commitment to bringing a dog home. It would be nice if more people found this website and studied the GRCA website before bringing home a Golden, it would probably prevent a lot of heartache on many things in life if people were more informed.

People on this site do an excellent job of promoting the idea of getting a Golden from either a reputable breeder or a rescue. I think most adults are aware that there are no guarantees in life, most of us learn it the hard way, we assume that there may be risk but that it happens to someone else, never to me. It is important to recognize the laws of genetics may not save every owner, but they can be used to gradually reduce the numbers of dogs who are suffering in pain with health issues that might have been avoided.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have heard some breeders say that they do not like extremes when it comes to hips. An OFA excellent is considered by some to be extreme since it is not common in Goldens. My unilaterally mildly dysplastic bitch had a maternal grandfather with Excellent hips. A tech I work with had a FAIR bitch from an Excellent X Good combo. My bitch that had hip dysplasia remained sound until she died from cancer. She got a UD and was showing in Rally Excellent two weeks before she died. She was also an OFA Fair at 24 months. Go figure. I believe that part of her soundness came from the solid soundness of her ancestors, where not just parents and grandparents had clearances, but their siblings had clearances as well.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

My point exactly Sally - you can get one Excellent, one FAIR and seven GOOD from an EXCELLENT x GOOD combo and you can get seven GOOD and 2 FAIR from a FAIR x GOOD combo. I call it the luck of the draw. 
Just like not all litters will have show potential pups.
LJack made it sound like it was a breeze owning a pup and I felt I had to pitch in a little reality drop in there.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

LJack said:


> AllisonK thank you for sharing your experience. All the things you are talking about are why I LOVE this breed! I think my girl is about the same age as yours. She is so smart it is amazing. We actually took and passed the CGC at 7 months on the fly. We were showing in conformation and a friend of mine said they had a slot open right right before hers. We literally jogged right from the breed ring to the evaluator, borrowed a buckle collar and nailed it.
> 
> I hope you have many happy and healthy years with your girl.
> 
> ...


OK here is the original post from LJack that you deride and nowhere does it say anything of what you are talking about... nowhere does it make it sound like its all peachy... nowhere does it say that clearances guarantee no problems... it is in your very next post that you go on about clearances and how they don't matter and its all luck of the draw....


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

yup - that is exactly the post I was referring to. 
How many parents on this forum alone who go to n amount of classes and have reputable dogs do you think passed the CGC "on the fly" or simply paraphrasing "jogged into the conformation ring with a borrowed collar and nailed it"???
Really? Sorry if I do not buy it. 

I will PM you Troopie's dad and pedigree if you promise not to reveal it in public.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> yup - that is exactly the post I was referring to.
> How many parents on this forum alone who go to n amount of classes and have reputable dogs do you think passed the CGC "on the fly" or simply paraphrasing "jogged into the conformation ring with a borrowed collar and nailed it"???
> Really? Sorry if I do not buy it.
> 
> I will PM you Troopie's dad and pedigree if you promise not to reveal it in public.


I actually think quite a few dogs who are trained in manners and basic training can take a CGC Test and pass it on the fly, I know that two of my dogs did just that... remember a dog trained in the breed ring has basic behavior under wraps, they are trained to stay, they are trained to not jump up, they are trained not to pull, they often go with handlers and others, many of the things that they are evaluating in a cgc are things that a dog who is trained for conformation knows how to do... and if a person is dog savvy.... shoot I am pretty sure I could walk into a CGC test with my natalie right now (If I didn't have a broken foot) and she would pass even though she has never been trained for it... nowhere did she say that this dog wasn't trained but when you have a dog that basically likes people and has a great temperament like our breed has, and a test that is basically looking for manners, I do think quite a few of our dogs could take the test on the fly with basic training under their belt and pass the test, especially an older dog that has gotten past the puppy flightiness... and again there is alot of information missing. I do see what you were concerned about, I don't think you expressed that concern well... because what I was reading was the same as what others were reading in your post now that you have explained what your concern was it makes alot more sense .... 

The fact is that breeding is not an exact science... and I as a breeder always tell people that even when you do everything right bad things can happen... my Bing is an example of that as is my Cuinn but can you imagine how much more often these things would happen if people didn't do it right... how many more dogs there would be with hip dysplasia or other genetic illnesses if people didn't at least try to do everythin right?? If people said well shoot there are no guarantees nothing bad is going to happen so who cares if I breed my dog with epilepsy or my dog with hip dysplasia.... what a mess we would be in... in the past dogs were dropping dead all the time from SAS now dogs are still dying from SAS but not at nearly the rate that they were and that is solely because of clearances....


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I actually believe a puppy that isn't too excitable around strangers should be able to pass that test with some basic training. I'm confident Bella could, and we haven't taken a CGC class. 


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> I will PM you Troopie's dad and pedigree if you promise not to reveal it in public.


You already revealed the registered names of Trooper's sire & dam in another thread. Top Brass sure isn't secretive about it as they have both dogs listed in k9 data.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

But I'm pretty sure I couldn't put Bella in a down stay and walk around Petco like you were able to do. I wouldn't even attempt it. That's impressive. 


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Actually, my point was more to look at siblings of dogs with clearances... An OFA Excellent with a horrible horizontal pedigree is less attractive to me than a dog with a fair with siblings with good clearances....


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> NO ONE said it is ethical to cut corners. But it is just as unethical not to disclose that no matter what health is NOT guaranteed as many on this forum tend to do.


I challenge you to find one post where any of us has said that health is _guaranteed_ by good breeding practices.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> I challenge you to find one post where any of us has said that health is _guaranteed_ by good breeding practices.


The simple fact that it is omitted from statements it implies a guarantee.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Sally's Mom said:


> Actually, my point was more to look at siblings of dogs with clearances... An OFA Excellent with a horrible horizontal pedigree is less attractive to me than a dog with a fair with siblings with good clearances....


So HOW exactly would you breed an OFA Excellent to make it more attractive???? Or would you just not breed it?


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> The simple fact that it is omitted from statements it implies a guarantee.


Omitted by who?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> The simple fact that it is omitted from statements it implies a guarantee.


That's absurd.

And if that were really your point here, why don't you just say "it's important to be aware that clearances cut risks significantly, but there are no guarantees" as opposed to what you actually do, which is make it sound like it's all the luck of the draw?


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

nolefan said:


> http://www.offa.org/pdf/monograph_2012_web.pdf
> 
> Page 8 & 9
> 
> I'm sorry, the tables won't copy, but the information is extremely interesting and worth your time in reading. .



Again, if you'll take some time to read through the pages I've highlighted, you will see the answer to your questions regarding breeding. The information backs up SallysMom's comment that aboutl hip ratings on horizontal pedigree, I think you will see that the improved percentages are worth it.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> That's absurd.
> 
> And if that were really your point here, why don't you just say "it's important to be aware that clearances cut risks significantly, but there are no guarantees" as opposed to what you actually do, which is make it sound like it's all the luck of the draw?



Ditto! You took the words right out of my mouth!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Nairb - by the people who only put emphasis only on clearances. 

That's where I come in (no matter how controversial obviously it is) that people should be aware that even though clearances are important and taken into consideration fully, there is still no guarantee from any breeder out there in health. It is in no way to be construed as the breeder's fault. It can happen to the most respectable and reputable breeders in the US even though they have taken all due diligence and taken every scientific avenue. 

So if people are aware of this you would not have less situations like Shalva posted with Bing where the poor pup ends up neglected and not given the attention and medical intervention necessary. 

Was it Shalva's fault? NO - and she has done what every reputable and respected breeder would do in that situation. 
Was it Chloe's breeder (see goldenjackpupy's comment) fault? NO But Chloe was lucky to have an owner who cared and knew what to do for Chloe to have a good life. 
Was it Troopie's breeder fault for his health problems? NO. But he had a family that cared for him more than the training and showing ambitions. And if we could have him back in our life I would not hesitate one second. Since 2005 there has not been one day that we did not go to his grave. 

I really do not see how making people aware that there is a "luck" factor, how they have to be aware of possible health issues before committing to adding a furry family member and be prepared for it could possibly be interpreted in a negative way???
To paraphrase someone on this forum - You are getting a puppy not a car!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> That's absurd.
> 
> And if that were really your point here, why don't you just say "it's important to be aware that clearances cut risks significantly, but there are no guarantees" as opposed to what you actually do, which is make it sound like it's all the luck of the draw?


Right back at you tippy!


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

For what it's worth, I just read over the contracts of two reputable breeders....the owners of Bella's sire and dam. They go out of their way to make certain that the buyer knows that the clearances don't guarantee a healthy puppy. 

I also looked at the contract of the "English Creme" breeder that I posted about the first time I came here. No similar clause exists in their contract. What a shocker. 

I want to know which reputable breeders are omitting that from their contract? Let me know when you find one. Good luck. 


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

nolefan said:


> Again, if you'll take some time to read through the pages I've highlighted, you will see the answer to your questions regarding breeding. The information backs up SallysMom's comment that aboutl hip ratings on horizontal pedigree, I think you will see that the improved percentages are worth it.


I have no doubt that due to the good diligence of Troopie's breeder he made it to be close to 13 years of age.


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

All I want to say is that I'm glad I stacked the deck in favor of my dog's health. 

There are no guarantees in life.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> LJack made it sound like it was a breeze owning a pup and I felt I had to pitch in a little reality drop in there.





Claudia M said:


> yup - that is exactly the post I was referring to.
> How many parents on this forum alone who go to n amount of classes and have reputable dogs do you think passed the CGC "on the fly" or simply paraphrasing "jogged into the conformation ring with a borrowed collar and nailed it"???
> Really? Sorry if I do not buy it.


Wow, just wow. Thanks for the personal attack Claudia! I am so angry right now, I probably should not be typing as I am sure this will not have the normal courtesy and finess I strive for on the forum. 
I am glad you feel that you can sit in judgement of my post which was intended to share my love and appriciation for traits that should in my opinion be a part of every Golden. That famous Golden temperment and trainabilty are hallmarks of our breed, they are not supposed to be rare.

So, since you are going to be the judge of my accomplishments, I did and plan to continue taking Jinx to lessons both Conformation and Obidience. She is my my first golden and my first show dog and I plan to title her at both ends. The collar borrowed was a "buckle" collar as the CGC did not allow the show choke she was wareing at the time. Yes, it was "on the fly" since my original plan was to wait until she was 12-18 months old before taking the test, so I was not prepared. I signed up because I though it would be a good chance to practice and get some exposure. I was very glad and proud that she passed.

I am including proof of my accomplishments since you don't "buy it". 

Oh and by the way I forgot to mention we went Best Puppy Group One amature owner handled after competeing in the Golden classes and getting our CGC.

Her birth date is 10/31/2011 if you would like to check my math. Yep, 7 months.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Hold you horses so to speak Laura. 
I may say it is quite impressive as an amateur with no previous dog ownership experience and no classes, going from a choke collar (unless I misunderstood) to a buckle collar right before the test. I am very much impressed and congratulations to you and Jinx. IMHO that is quite rare and you do have an exceptional pup. I hope to see more titles attached to Jinx in the near future.

I do invite you though to look over the training threads on this forum and see how many people have tried the same test after lots of classes and training and still failed. There was a new thread started just recently. Also take time and look at the teenage stage thread (I think it is a sticky and quite long).


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## WildfireGoldensInArizona (Aug 10, 2012)

I guess I have to chime in on Claudia M's berating of LJack too. I happened to be at the show she was talking about where she and Jinx earned their CGC title. It is true that her intentions for the shows for that weekend were only to show in conformation as she was just getting started showing in the AKC ring with her. Of course she had gone to puppy kindergarten classes and earned her STAR Puppy award and was extremely dedicated in her training of Jinx not only in manners, but also on obedience work as well as conformation skills. She had Jinx heeling off lead before she was 3 months old and they were impressive. They are quite the team and love each other. We actually went to the show together and my plans were to get a CGC title on the bitch I was also showing in conformation. On a lark I noticed that there were a few openings left for anyone who wanted to do the CGC contest and told Laura she should give it a try. Being a gung ho person, she figured why not, realizing that if Jinx focused and didn't get any puppy brain inklings, she could probably pass it and if not, what the heck, she got some good practice. Needless to say, they aced it and got a standing ovation by everyone who watched them perform. They outshowed everyone that day in the CGC event. As Laura mentioned, Jinx also won her conformation class, went BOB Puppy and then went on to win the Sporting Group 1 Puppy competiton against puppies who won the points that day in their breed with one winning a major! It was an AWESOME day for all of us.
Laura has totally trained Jinx herself and as an amateur/owner handler has done exceptional in the conformation ring. I think you are being either petty or jealous in the belittling of a great owner and a super puppy, especially since Laura's post was only trying to be helpful and supportive of you as well as the original poster. There are truly some wonderful dedicated owners with great, well bred, highly trainable Goldens out there that I am sure could ace a CGC title too under the same circumstances.


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## WildfireGoldensInArizona (Aug 10, 2012)

Hmmm. Claudia M. Looks like you are doing some backpeddling in regards to Jinx and LJack. Just wish you wouldn't have gone there to begin with.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Claudia, I really think you need to slow down a read the posts before you respond. In your second post regarding me your paraphrase was incorrect. Now, you assume, "no previous dog ownership experience and no classes". 
Jinx is my first Golden. She is not my first dog, had you taken the time to look, first dog honors go to Rocky, the 14 year old Min Pin who thinks he is a golden. And I sware, I didn't have the determination to train him for obiedience. 
I also tried to make it clear that Jinx has attended both Conformation and Obeidence classes. And she will continue in the classes we need to reach our goals.
As for the collar, why this seems to be an issue is a mystery. Yes, in conformation I show in a very fine nylon choke. The CGC did not allow choke collars as part of their rules. A very nice person let me borrow a buckle collar since I did not have one on me. 

I am not belittling others who find challenges in training. I have had my share and I am sure I will have more when we get to competing for titles. I already see that working with dumbells will be a chalenge since she wants to carry by the end.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Laura, no I do not look people up. I simply responded to your posts in which you were not clear about training and previous experiences. 
But since you mention it, I just did therefore I guess congratulations should also be in order to Jinx's co-owner WildfireGoldens. 
I also checked your website Wildfire and I am pleased to see that you do state that while you are doing everything by the book in your breeding it does not guarantee the health.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I am not sure why you feel you have to berate people on the forum. You are not reading posts and making assumptions. I am sorry I did not post a complete synopsis of every waking moment I have share with my wonderful girl. But, if I had, I am sure you would have found more fault with me.

Also interesting is that "you don't look folks up" but then went to the trouble to find my breeders website. It must have been very difficult considering I have a link to it through my k9data link at the bottom of every post. And yes since I do co-own (which is not uncommon for folks like me starting out) my breeder does list my girl and her accomplishments on her site.
I can only guess that you missed the intent of my post again when I mentioned if you looked you would see my Min Pin. He is of course right here in my signature at the bottom of every post I make.

I am not a breeder yet, nor do I have a website yet. I may in the future.

I think at this point it is time to say yes, Claudia you are absolutely right about every thing you ever say. How very silly of me to try to make a nice post praising the great qualities of our breed and share accomplishments that I am proud of. Everyone here should just learn to agree with you. It would be so much easier if no one ever share an opinion other than you. It would be so much better to just sit ideally by as you quote incorrectly and post your assumptions when you can not be bothered to actually read the post you respond to.:doh:

I am still not sure why you have gone into attack mode and latched on to me. I do not appreciate it. I also remember in the Puppy Cost thread, you did not like assumptions that were being made about you.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

ClaudiaM clearly has her own mission to support BYBs and either through ignorance or insecurity or indifference is unable to grasp the concept of reputable breeding which is illustrated by her continued pride in paying her breeder an extra $100 because she "believed the breeder was worth more than what was charged." This being a breeder who keeps her dogs outside and intentionally bred a bitch at 8 mos whose pedigree and that of the sire woefully lacks clearances. This same breeder has another litter of golden pups on the ground right now; I wonder if it's the underaged mom's second litter. How someone can show continued support for a breeder who shows little regard for the care of her own dogs & further encourage such practices is beyond comprehensible to me--certainly not someone I'd be turning to for advice on how to purchase a pup from a reputable breeder.

As much as she doesn't want her own threads derailed, I would hope that she could grant the same basic courtesy to the OP and let the forum educate those willing to learn.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I think this issue has been beaten to death at this point and the thread has headed seriously off topic, so I'm going to close it. If anyone has any complaints feel free to PM me and I will consider re-opening it.

I will also go on record to say that I have had the pleasure to meet LJack in real life a few times, and know how hard she works with Jinx. None of their accomplishments surprise me at all.


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