# Best Age to Neuter Performance Dogs



## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

For those of you competing in performance events with your altered Goldens, what age did you spay/neuter? I know the current thinking is that it's best to wait until at LEAST 14 months (minimum), with larger breeds to ensure growth plates have closed. But I'd just like to hear thoughts from other people who are actively competing with altered dogs.

So, what age did you spay/neuter? Has your dog suffered any performance-related injuries? What kind? (I do realize that there are a lot of different factors involved in a sports-related injury such as conditioning, poor conformation, etc.) 

Please share!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I know we talk daily and you know my thoughts, but for the sake of convo, here is my experience:

I have lure coursed two neutered Whippets. One was neutered at five months because he was a difficult case of a retained testicle. I regret the choice and will never do it again. As you know, Julian is a goofy looking and out of proportion (though darling) boy who is far too tall (especially considering he is of UK breeding and they are usually a lot smaller than American Whippets). That said, he had no problem lure coursing safely and was never injured. He did, however, lack speed. On the flip side, he is one of the most muscular dogs I have ever owned, and I am CERTAIN 100% that neutering does NOT reduce muscle mass in a properly exercised dog, regardless of age of surgery. It does, however, lead to a bizarre appearance to the eye of an experienced dog person.

My other dog, Rigby, was neutered late in life and was an excellent courser before and after. 

I do not personally believe that dogs can be injured in something like obedience (which in my opinion is NOT a physically stressful activity, even with the jumps) because of being neutered at any age, and probably not even agility.

My only concern would be risks of bone cancer increasing by neutering too young, but if I had a strong enough reason to do it, I would do it at 10 or 12 months. 

Assuming things are going well, I'd personally neuter a Golden boy at 18 months.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I want to qualify that obedience is an active sport, yes, but for a dog that gets hard daily exercise, free running, and practices jumping at home- it should not be any big leap (no pun intended)


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> ...Assuming things are going well, I'd personally neuter a Golden boy at 18 months.


Well, *you* know how I feel about spay/neuter, so I won't go off on *that*, lol. 

I don't think I can hold out until 18 months old with Marlowe, though. It's gonna be hard enough waiting another four/five months until he's 14 months and barely at the "minimum" age recommended by Chris Zink.

I just hope the neuter helps with his insane social attraction to other dogs and people. Please tell me it will...:crossfing


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Hi there,

I saw that you and Jenna both PM'd me... and I *will* respond... it's just a bit crazy right now. My mom has been in the hospital all of June (rare disease, no cure, funky symptom management) and now she's home, but still needs a lot of care, so I'm running around crazy. 

BUT - my short answer is that I neutered Quiz (my ULTIMATE performance dog... ask Jenna!) at 10 months. At the time, I chose to do it then b/c I was looking to increase food motivation. It worked. I also wanted *some* testosterone-induced moxy, but not too much. He's been injury free and does obedience, agility, dock jumping, hunt tests and even working trial jumping.

I agree that obedience jumping shouldn't be that strenous on a well-conditioned dog. Over time, I think the broad jump, because of the turn, can wear on a dog, but that's about it, and there are lots of things one can do to help prevent that. I also, for what it's worth, recently picked apart a Chris Zink article on spay/neuter and found several references where she had really twisted the results of studies, etc. to fit her party line. A friend and I went and looked up each study... In short, I think she's a bit of an extremist.

As for his insane attraction to dogs and other people... How much time does he spend with your other two dogs when at home? When I bring a performance pup into my world, that dog is physically separated from my other dog almost all the time (via baby gates, crates, x-pens, tethers, etc.) for about the first 9 months. They get maybe 10 mins a day to play togehter. I teach the youngest dog to basically ignore everyone else and that *I* am his best source of fun. I also do what I call rules of engagement, meaning that when we're out socializing or whatever, he's either on me -- with food or tugging on a toy, or he's in a settle (relaxed down). Once we're past the puppy socializing to people (I do tons of that as tiny puppies) even being pet by somebody is a working exercise with me -- I as the dog to sit and I feed while the other person pets.

I joke and say that dogs is the only area where I'm actually self-centered. With my dogs, I insist that it's all about me!

Hope that helps!

-S


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## hawtee (Nov 1, 2006)

Casey was n. at 2yo Lilli is not. Neither one of them have had in injuries in obed/agility or field work..Before going out to train or compete I always have a set of warmups I do to stretch their muscles out.
Does it cure the insanity lol depends on how much you train them. It is not an instant cure. You want to be the best thing they ever saw and the most exciting. I agree with Stephanie, wherever I go with them I am the focal point, treating, tugging, playing.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Stephanie, thanks for your reply! I'm sorry to hear about your mom. I do understand that things get hectic andI'm looking forward to your in-depth response when you have time. 

Well, it certainly is encouraging to know that you neutered Quiz at 10 months. I don't feel so bad about going ahead and neutering Marlowe NOW (he's almost one year old), after learning this.

Very interesting about the Zink article! She gets quoted a lot (especially by agility people), and it's kind of a relief to find out that her research isn't all what it seems.


I guess I should have provided a little background on Marlowe. I adopted him from animal control at approximately six months old (his canine teeth were half-way in, hence the guess). I had to start him just as I would a baby-puppy b/c he had clearly never been socialized. I won't go into the nitty-gritty, but suffice to say, he had some issues. I'm actually very proud of him, b/c although I've only had him for five months now, he's made TREMENDOUS progress. I don't think he has a bad temperament (although I was really wondering at first just what sort of temperament he had). He must've had one helluva puppyhood, either gross neglect or abuse (and I hesitate to say that he was "abused" b/c I hear that so often as an excuse for a crap temperament), but in Marlowe's case, there was at least very serious neglect involved. He either lived in a tiny, tiny dog run or in a crate as he had NO muscle tone at all when I brought him home and he could barely run a half of a lap around my backyard. (He's now "ripped" with muscles and it's hard to believe he's the same dog I pulled from A/C just a few months ago.) He's come a long way in the past few months, so I actually think he must have a fundamentally good temperament...and for me to nit-pick and worry about him being overly-social with other dogs/people is a pretty crappy thing for me to do. But, alas, I am human. <sigh>

I guess I am a bit unlike you in that I don't want my dogs to depend on me "too much." My reason is that I had a Saluki with HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, debilitating separation anxiety (diarrhea, pee, and drooling from being upset EVERY time I would leave him). After behaviorists, numerous medications, all kinds of tests, etc, I just "managed" it for his entire life. Dog-sitters didn't help either -- he just wanted ME. So, after that, even though I had completely "normal" dogs before I had the Saluki with SA, and I have had "normal" dogs since, I'm still a little bit paranoid about getting another SA dog. Sooooo...I don't want to do umbilical cords, isolation, etc, just b/c I want my dogs to be able to hang out together while Mommy's gone and just be "totally OK." I'm not saying that doing those things (limiting play/interaction with other dogs/people), will prevent a dog from being totally normal and will make a dog overly-dependent on Mommy. But it's just not a risk I'm willing to take after what I went through with the SA. 

So, to finally (!) answer your question, no, I did not limit Marlowe's time with my other dogs. And at home, he would much rather TRAIN with Mommy than play with Maya or Monty! But, going to class or shows, he is really interested in new dogs (particularly bitches since he's maturing sexually, but males will do just fine, thank you). In fact, I can't get his attention at all in class anymore as he is too busy flirting (playbowing, pawing the air, whining, coy head tossing, etc). When he does this, I put him back in the crate in my van and work my BC. Marlowe really, REALLY does NOT like that...but if I get him out again, he still wants to flirt. So, it's really more of a hormonal thing, or maybe it's a Golden thing. Coming from Salukis and German Shepherds, I'm not used to having a dog that wants to interact with other dogs, or hell, even other people, for that matter! My BC, Monty, is very social, but by God, he wants to work, so I don't have any real conflict there b/c he will stop what he's doing at the drop of a hat if he thinks I'm going to work him.

Ok. So I've ranted and raved long enough. I might just go ahead and neuter Marlowe NOW. I feel a lot more comfortable with it since you had Quiz neutered at 10 months and Quiz is so awesome!


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

hawtee said:


> Casey was n. at 2yo Lilli is not. Neither one of them have had in injuries in obed/agility or field work..Before going out to train or compete I always have a set of warmups I do to stretch their muscles out.
> Does it cure the insanity lol depends on how much you train them. It is not an instant cure. You want to be the best thing they ever saw and the most exciting. I agree with Stephanie, wherever I go with them I am the focal point, treating, tugging, playing.


Did Casey have a high social attraction to other dogs before he was neutered? If he did, did neutering make a difference?

I *am* the most exciting thing in my BC's world...however...I'm still trying to figure out how to be the most exciting thing to my Golden. It seems to take a buttload more work to stay exciting to a Golden, especially when there are so many new people and new dogs that he wants to meet. The GRs seem to be such social butterflies.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Dusty was neutered at 6 months, and Boo was neutered at around 10 months. Boo had an off-and-on shoulder injury at the beginning of this year, which was originally from playing ball and then showed up every time he did the weaves, and Dusty has only had split toenails. Boo has a lot more muscle, but part of that is also breeding (Boo is field-bred and Dusty is conformation-turned-BYB) and Dusty being an old man.


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## hawtee (Nov 1, 2006)

Casey still has a high social attraction. He loves playing with other dogs and people and sometimes gets a wild hair in the middle of a course (usually visting the judge and going are'n I cute). Which is why he became a therapy dog.. Lilli on the otherhand was trained a little different and it's all about me..ok except for when the bird landed in the middle of the arena..duh...lol


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

katieanddusty said:


> Dusty was neutered at 6 months, and Boo was neutered at around 10 months. Boo had an off-and-on shoulder injury at the beginning of this year, which was originally from playing ball and then showed up every time he did the weaves, and Dusty has only had split toenails. Boo has a lot more muscle, but part of that is also breeding (Boo is field-bred and Dusty is conformation-turned-BYB) and Dusty being an old man.



Wow! Neutered at six months and only had split toenails. That is GREAT! Especially considering what an accomplished agility dog Dusty is! 

The whole "wait-until-14 months-or-more" thing was really worrying me. But after hearing from you and Stephanie, 
I'm ready to make that neuter appointment!

BTW, do you mind if I ask Dusty's height and weight?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Sit Happens said:


> I guess I am a bit unlike you in that I don't want my dogs to depend on me "too much." My reason is that I had a Saluki with HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, debilitating separation anxiety (diarrhea, pee, and drooling from being upset EVERY time I would leave him). After behaviorists, numerous medications, all kinds of tests, etc, I just "managed" it for his entire life. Dog-sitters didn't help either -- he just wanted ME. So, after that, even though I had completely "normal" dogs before I had the Saluki with SA, and I have had "normal" dogs since, I'm still a little bit paranoid about getting another SA dog. Sooooo...I don't want to do umbilical cords, isolation, etc, just b/c I want my dogs to be able to hang out together while Mommy's gone and just be "totally OK." I'm not saying that doing those things (limiting play/interaction with other dogs/people), will prevent a dog from being totally normal and will make a dog overly-dependent on Mommy. But it's just not a risk I'm willing to take after what I went through with the SA.


Working with and managing a dog with true SA is no picnic! However, I don't think that limiting a dog's interaction with other dogs will contribute to SA -- b/c as you said, SA is about the dog's inability to cope with the absence of the primary attachment figure, so the presence of other dogs offers no comfort.

When I say I limit my dog's interaction with other dogs, it has nothing to do with making them overly dependent on me. Life goes on even when I have a pup, so it's not with me 24/7. One of the most important lessons I teach a pup or young dog is how to be alone. The pup may not be with me all the time, but when he's not with me, I don't want him with the other dog. Anytime your dog is playing with other dogs, he's having more fun with them than he's having with you. Until I'm 100% certain that my dog knows I'm the best game in town - even around other dogs - I don't want them hanging out together.

I totally understand that you're sensitive to the SA issue - I just really think it's talking apples and oranges. Try it for 10 days and see if you notice a difference.... Just an idea.

I'll tell you that it's worked really well for me. I can take Quiz just about anywhere with dogs and people and, with little effort, can have him riveted to me. When we're at home, he's happy to go lie down and chew a bone, or sometimes I'll baby gate him in the kitchen for the hell of it. Not even the slightest trace of SA. He's not "clingy" in the least, he just finds me fascinating!

Just a couple questions...

Do you spit food to your dogs?

Will Marlowe tug with you at home with the other dogs out?

Will he tug with you on a walk if no other dogs/people are present? 

Will he take food when other dogs/people are present?

-S


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Yep, he's a healthy old buddy  He's around 22.5 inches, and 63-65 pounds (when we were at the vet last he was 66 but he's lost weight since then).


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Just a couple questions...
> 
> Do you spit food to your dogs?
> 
> ...



Yes, I spit food at my dogs. A lot, and often. It's my favorite human trick, LOL. 

Yes, Marlowe will tug with me with my other dogs out. He will work for me when the other dogs are out, too. I often work them all at the same time which might be a bad idea b/c Monty and Marlowe get so worked up offering behaviors. I try to make each one wait his/her turn. Maya will usually hang back and wait for "freebies" (she's lazy and I indulge her a lot), while Monty and Marlowe try to out-do each other. When one of them gets snarky, I put the snarky one away (within visual range), and let him watch while I continue to work the other dog.

When I go for walks, I don't walk my dogs one at a time, I walk them all together, so I don't know if Marlowe would tug on a walk by himself. He sometimes will tug and sometimes won't when I take him places by himself (Petsmart, Home Depot, going for walks on show grounds, etc).

Yes, he will take food when other people or dogs are present. There were times when I first got him that he wouldn't take food, but that was from stress. At present, the only time he won't take food is when he goes into "flirt mode." But, generally, yes, he will definitely take food around new dogs and people.

What would you recommend I try for 10 days? Umbilical cord? Not letting him play with my other two dogs? Not leave him alone with my other dogs when I'm not at home? More? Marlowe lives up my butt at home (he's under my desk when I'm online, he follows me to the bathroom, he's constantly underfoot, etc), so I don't think I'd actually even need a leash to do the umbilical cord, LOL.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Great information...

Steph really sorry about your mom  I'd forgotten about that, even though you'd mentioned it a while back. I hope she's on the mend as much as possible.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Sit Happens said:


> What would you recommend I try for 10 days? Umbilical cord? Not letting him play with my other two dogs? Not leave him alone with my other dogs when I'm not at home? More? Marlowe lives up my butt at home (he's under my desk when I'm online, he follows me to the bathroom, he's constantly underfoot, etc), so I don't think I'd actually even need a leash to do the umbilical cord, LOL.


Whoops. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I mean, for 10 days, try not letting him hang out with the other dogs. That doesn't mean that he has to ONLY hang out with you, it just means that when he's not actively *working* with you, he's not being allowed to interact with the other dogs. You can have him put up somewhere when you're busy. He's baby-gated in the kitchen and the other two dogs are loose in the house with you - then vice versa, etc. I'm not suggesting you have to do the umbilical cord thing. I don't do that - I just make sure that if I'm not actively working the young dog, he's sittin' around away from the other dogs. I basically would want all the fun in his world to come from you and not the interaction he has with the other dogs at home. 

Probably easiest for you to do this by keeping them apart when you're at work. Oh - and if it bugs you that Marlow lives up your butt when you're home, then teaching him to be behind a baby gate when you ARE home will help with that, too, by giving a bit of forced sep. between the two of you.

-S


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Thank you, Stephanie, your advice is very much appreciated! I will do what you recommend and let you know what happens. 

I hope things get better soon for your mom!


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