# Extreme Aggression



## Zapto (Jan 12, 2008)

We purchased two pure bred golden retrievers a year ago, they are brothers. 
And recently they have been getting into outrageous fights with each other. To the point where we have to separate them. 

When they get into these fights, nothing will stop them. We have a water bowl ready for if they start, and this does nothing. They have shock collars on and we put them up to the highest in case of that. And when they do get into those fights, they aren't even phased by any of that.

I'm worried that if my wife gets into it, they might harm her. 

Neither of them are neutered. What is causing this and what can we do to stop this?

One fight even got so bad that one of the dogs [the smaller of the two] was bleeding. 

Will getting my dogs neutered stop this from happening?
I'm open to any tips or suggestions.
I'm desperate


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## Emmysourgolden (Oct 10, 2007)

I don't have any advice as I have a female golden. Welcome to the forum..you have come to the right place. Lots of very friendly, knowledgable people here.


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

It will help but might not stop it!.
You need to get a trainer ASAP or a dog and a person will get hut!.
How old are they?.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

yikes that sounds bad... i dont have any advice really, but i know you will get some good advice from people here... good luck


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

Welcome!

i would be worried that the shocks from the collars are being missinterpreted (sp?) when dogs are that riled up it is possible that they feel the shocks are being caused by the other dog, therefore making it worse.

neutering would help if they are fighting over a local female is season, but i think that something else is going on here. Hope you find the help you need!


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## Zapto (Jan 12, 2008)

Both are one year old. I need some help cause its messing with my life. i keep getting calls from my wife saying that the dogs are killing each other. I jumped in there recently trying to show them that i was the alpha male and i pushed them apart and they stopped until i went away. I'm not sure what to do.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Dog fights are scary! I don't envy you or your wife. I wonder if they are fighting for "status" within the family. Top dog so to speak. I'm curious what triggers the fights.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

I would think each is trying to prove he is '"top dog". As bad as it sounds, you may have to give one up to a family with no dogs. That may be the only safe solution. maybve others can come up with some good ideas.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Shock collars WILL make it worse.

Get the help of a qualified, professional trainer who has experience successfully dealing with dog-to-dog aggression within the home.

Get help soon. If you need help finding a trainer, check out the Association of Pet Dog Trainers. They have a trainer search online at www.apdt.com.


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## Ryan and Julie Ditton (Dec 22, 2007)

Can't offer any experienced advice but thinking maybe putting a muzzle on them when they fight might be a better deterent than shocking them. That would take away their ability to bite. This would not be a good idea if they are hot. Fight - get muzzled for awhile .. Behave - mouth freedom

Just looked up muzzles .. alot of variations .. it might be a short term solution until you can find a professional trainer.

Amateur advice .. take it as such.


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## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Shock collars WILL make it worse.
> 
> Get the help of a qualified, professional trainer who has experience successfully dealing with dog-to-dog aggression within the home.
> 
> Get help soon. If you need help finding a trainer, check out the Association of Pet Dog Trainers.  They have a trainer search online at www.apdt.com.


What she said! Are they crate trained? I would separate them untill you have this figured out. Good luck! Welcome to the forum!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

. I've heard that when bringing in a new dog or puppy its important to treat the older dog as the "top dog". That way the new puppy learns that the other dog is on a higher status in the"pack" and this can prevent fights or conflicts because the matter is settled. The older dog is fed first, given attention first....

It would be interesting to see if that same concept can apply here.


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## Joe (Apr 9, 2005)

You should clearly start training them to not to do so. Here is what I suggest and while it might take some time and patience, I am almost sure, it'll work.

So, first of all, you will need to watch them constantly and if there is even slightest possibility of them getting into a fight, you will need to step in and stop it. Then separate both dogs immediately.

This way you will let them know and feel that they did something wrong. 
Do not beat them, nor yell at them.
After a little while, I would let them be together, but only if they behave. 

Prior to separating them, right after you see a first sign of the fight, you and let me stress this out: *also your wife*, should take each dog by the collar and turn them on their backs. Also your kids should do this part, if you have any.
It'll show them who the boss is. They will hate it from the start, but do not talk to them, just do it and keep them pinned until they settle and stop moving. First couple times, it may take a long time and they will hate it, trust me, but just do it until they respect you as a pack leader and the person they will have to listen to.

Doesn't matter how you do it, just do it and keep them both pinned to the ground, repeating their name and a command "no" or "stop it". Then separate them for couple minutes.

You will need a week, perhaps longer, to constantly keep an eye on them. There cannot be one single fight between them, and slowly but surely, they will learn to know who their boss is, and that is you and your wife, not only you alone.
And that between them, there is no boss. So keep on repeating it and it'll work.

Throw away shock collars, they do not work, doesn't matter what everyone else tells you.

You will need to train your dogs the way, that you don't even have to say anything, just by the way you look at them, they should know which way is wind blowing.

Joe


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

great advice Joe!


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

This is common problem among littermates and why many breeders wont place littermates together. Keep them separated until you can hire a professional behaviorist that has sucessfully specialized in dog-dog aggression. Personally, I would consider rehoming one of the dogs.


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## jealous1 (Dec 7, 2007)

I had a similar situation several years back with an older female sheltie and a young mixed sheltie. Both were rescues. The older female came into the household first at the age of 2 years, the younger a couple of years later as a 4-5 mo. old puppy who I was only going to foster but fell in love after having pulled her through a bout of parvo. At first, they would play some together. As the young one got older, they would start to play and something would happen and it would turn into an all-out fight with the younger one sometimes causing serious physical damage. When this would happen, it was like the younger one had a Jekyll/Hyde personality and would zone out to anything but trying to destroy the older dog. The first vet I saw to take care of the older when she got hurt advised that the two were trying to sort out who was the alpha bitch. The older dog would not back down, even though she was smaller and obviously could not win the battle. He also advised that the younger needed to be put down. The problem with this though was the younger was/is so sweet other than during this time and never showed this type of aggression toward any of my other dogs, including my alpha male sheltie who is a lot older and smaller than her. It also did not occur on any type of regular basis. Shortly after I moved from KY to GA, the younger almost killed the older one. My new vet suggested that I have the younger dog's teeth ground down so that when they did fight, the younger one could not do any damage. I jumped at this solution and it worked out great. A year or so later one of my fellow employees was over with his wife and son who fell in love with the older dog. I had always said if I could find the right home for either of the two females I would let that one go. The older female was rehomed with them and I get regular updates and pics--she's doing great and has a golden retriever brother to boss around who doesn't care who's boss. It was sad giving her up and I shed a lot of tears, but I knew it was best for her. The younger is still a part of my crew of five and has never displayed this type of behavior with any of them.

That being said, I would have to agree with many of the posters above--get a specialist/dog behaviorist involved if you want to keep both. My two 13-year old shelties are brothers with one having an alpha personality and the other having a submissive personality. Sounds to me like your two both want to be boss.


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

My uncle has two male littermate German Shepherds and they had the same problem. The vet recommened getting one of them neutered to 'lower' his pack status but while they became fairly calm in the house the can't be walked together and when one of them comes home from a walk the other has to be put away and they have to meet again in the garden. It is hard work for everyone and has caused some costly vet bills from the fights they used to have. They will never be 100% with each other.

If it was me I would consider rehomimg one of them. I would hate it as I would feel I was giving up on my pet but I couldn't live in a situation like that and it can't make the dogs very happy either.

I wish you the best of luck.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Shock collars are not the way to go, nor are muzzles. And, getting in the middle of two dogs either about to, or already in a fight, is risky business. I agree with Quiz - contact a reputable trainer with experience with agressive dogs. This situation is a ticking time bomb.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Zapto said:


> We purchased two pure bred golden retrievers a year ago, they are brothers.
> And recently they have been getting into outrageous fights with each other. To the point where we have to separate them.
> 
> When they get into these fights, nothing will stop them. We have a water bowl ready for if they start, and this does nothing. They have shock collars on and we put them up to the highest in case of that. And when they do get into those fights, they aren't even phased by any of that.
> ...


 
*Get those E-collars off the dogs right now!* That is a complete and utter mis-use of the E-collar. The E-collars WILL make things worse and escalate the issues between the dogs. (I train with E-collars six days a week and the approach you're using is going to do nothing but dig you a deeper hole to try and train your way out of.) 

There is a reason most breeders and trainers recommend only getting one puppy at a time and putting some time (years) between getting the next one. Most people simply don't have enough spare hours in their day to devote to training and socializing two puppies at the same time. The boys don't respect you or your wifes position of leadership as they should. If they did, one word from you would send them to their respective corners to cool off. 

To start overcoming the situation you and your wife are going to have to spend some serious one on one time with each dog individually, working on formal obedience skills to enhance your leadership position and control of each dog. Once you have that, you can begin to allow some supervised interaction between the dogs, tolerating absolutely no posturing or unsavory behavior by either dog.


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

Joe said:


> You should clearly start training them to not to do so. Here is what I suggest and while it might take some time and patience, I am almost sure, it'll work.
> 
> So, first of all, you will need to watch them constantly and if there is even slightest possibility of them getting into a fight, you will need to step in and stop it. Then separate both dogs immediately.
> 
> ...


I really don't think an alpha roll on either one of these dogs is a good idea. Please seek a trainer or behaviourist for help and support.

Have these two dogs been to obedience classes and do you keep up with the obedience?


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## winewinn (Jan 7, 2008)

Here's a webpage that explains a little about pack dynamics and what people can do to help establish themselves as "top dog" first. I believe your two males are vying for the higher position in your pack, and you and your wife are not viewed as the pack leaders (at least most of the time).

You and your wife (and all other two-legged beings) need to establish yourselves as pack leaders, and one of the dogs needs to establish itself over the other. Since you've had them since puppies, I'm surprised one hadn't taken more of an alpha role over the other sooner -- or had one and now the subordinate is testing him for that position? 

http://www.phouka.com/dogs/dog_pack.html


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## Zapto (Jan 12, 2008)

yeah for a while there, there was a definite alpha, but just recently it seems as though the tables have turned. and its the other dog that has been causing all the quarrels. I'm definitely glad i came here for all this advice. I believe i am going to have them neutered. I hope this will reduce some of the aggression. And i take it using the myself being the "alpha male" in this situation by pulling them onto their backs is a bad idea? or would that work. I'm also looking into trainers, I have one I am going to call when they are open. I really don't want to have to send the dogs to the "farm" or get rid of them in any way. I love my goldens, i just don't like how they have been acting recently. 

I definitely came to the right place for answers.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Some people have used an "alpha roll" with success (at least I assume, because for a while it was a highly regarded method), however, in a case such as yours, it just sounds like a really good way to get yourself bit. I would definately continue your search for a trainer, and do your best to keep the dogs separated for now. Your dedication to your dogs is admirable, and I really hope this works out well for you.

Julie and Jersey


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

A friend of mine had the exact situation with two male littermates. When one almost killed the other, they instituted NILF (Nothing in Life is Free) at the advise of good trainers. The dogs were walked seperately, fed seperately and kept seperated until she and her husband established solid leadership. Two levels of obedience classes for the dogs, with husband taking one and her taking the other, solidified their leadership and the boys are now well-behaved and no longer get into fights. They can wrestle and play, but they knock it off if things escalate with a word from their owners. Please do consult a behaviorist or a qualified trainer to resolve this before someone gets seriously injured.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

I'm with the NO Shock Collars and NO Alpha Roll group.

If you don't know what you're doing with the help of a VERY good trainer, both of them are very bad ideas. Shock collars make fights worse....it enrages the dogs, thinking the other is the one hurting them. And, if you have a dominant dog, doing the Alpha Roll just might get you bitten in the face. Neither is a great plan right now.

We have a lot of dogs. Occasionally there are fights, even if they're neutered (and they are). They can be set off by several things, BUT, I'd have them both neutered ASAP. It'll take a while (at least a month or two) for the hormones to work their way out...and they can still impregnate a female for a month....so be prepared to not see much change for a while.

Enlist the help of a trainer/behaviorist. Not just a trainer. Also....IF the dogs get in a fight - you'll need TWO people and the way to break it up is to take the back legs of each animal fighting, and hold them up to your waist (like a wheelbarrow). The head will drop and they'll have to stop biting/fighting even if just for a second. DO NOT PULL if they're latched on...the head will drop in a short period of time. Also....try to stay calm. The more you scream and yell, the worse things will get. Take that opportunity (when the heads drop) to walk them backwards, away from one another (with their rear legs still up at your waist). Once they're far enough apart.......take them by the collar and put them somewhere, apart from the other. 

Take that opportunity to check over each dog (when out of the sight of the other). Make sure there are not punctures, etc. If so, treat the wounds. 

I hope you can get this straightened out. You can be the Alpha of the house...but you have to learn how, and also how to read them for any signs of possible tension brewing!! A trainer (a good one) can show you how.

Good luck!


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

I separate and conquer. I foster so I have all kinds of different personality types coming in here...and with terriers, once they get something in their head it is vey difficult to erase, so I try very hard to avoid a fight in the first place. Before I introduce a foster to my home, I take about one to two weeks working with the foster one on one, getting the dog to listen to me. I teach some basic commands, train them to walk with me on a leash...I need them to understand I'm in control. If I do have problems with dogs after introductions, I separate the dogs (typically my problems are male/male or female/female, but sometimes they surprise me and mix it up) and go back to basic commands, separate walks...and when I feel BOTH dogs are looking to me for direction, I take them for walks...my DH follows behind with one dog and then we walk together making each dog heel (or not..some fosters take a while to learn heel). I'm also a big fan of Nothing in Life is Free. There are some occasional fights here...but typically, when the dogs hear my voice and the command NO they both stop and look guilty. My experience has been if I can get them to look to me for direction, the problems go away.

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Please DO NOT USE THE ALPHA ROLL TECHNIQUE.

First of all, it addresses the SYMPTOM (the fight) and not the cause -- the underlying reason they are getting into fights.

Second, it really doesn't make sense to dogs. Dogs use rolling on their back as a way of showing submission IN AN EFFORT TO PREVENT CONFLICT. How bizarre must it seem to them to find themselves in a state of conflict with the owner, who is throwing them into the positon that they most often use to PREVENT CONFLICT? It will simply teach the dog that you, the owner, are prone to sudden aggressive outbursts yourself.

Yes, it's a punishment, and yes punishment can SUPRESS BEHAVIOR, but you're only supressing a symptom and you're really confusing your dog in the process.

Keep the dogs apart if you can't be sure they won't be fighting, until such time as you can meet with a qualified trainer who can help you.

Have they both been thoroughly vet-checked? If it's been a sudden change in who was top dog, there could be a medical reason for it.


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## winewinn (Jan 7, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Please DO NOT USE THE ALPHA ROLL TECHNIQUE.
> 
> it really doesn't make sense to dogs. Dogs use rolling on their back as a way of showing submission IN AN EFFORT TO PREVENT CONFLICT. How bizarre must it seem to them to find themselves in a state of conflict with the owner, who is throwing them into the positon that they most often use to PREVENT CONFLICT? It will simply teach the dog that you, the owner, are prone to sudden aggressive outbursts yourself.


That's a good point, however, there's more than rolling the dog on their back in establishing an alpha role. It's about controlling the food dish (humans eat first, dogs second), you control the prime spots to sit in your house, you walk through the doorway before your dogs ever do, etc. While these seem like small things, they are ways of showing your dogs that you are their leader. If you aren't comfortable with any of these tasks, it is time to seek the help of a trainer. The alpha role does not use aggression to earn that role. The desperate one to try to acquire that role sometimes does. 

Being a dominant human is the first step they need to take, which will help with the second problem they face. Working with the subordinant dog's aggression is the next step, and I agree that they could benefit from a trainer for help with this.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

winewinn said:


> That's a good point, however, there's more than rolling the dog on their back in establishing an alpha role. It's about controlling the food dish (humans eat first, dogs second), you control the prime spots to sit in your house, you walk through the doorway before your dogs ever do, etc. While these seem like small things, they are ways of showing your dogs that you are their leader. If you aren't comfortable with any of these tasks, it is time to seek the help of a trainer. The alpha role does not use aggression to earn that role. The desperate one to try to acquire that role sometimes does.
> 
> Being a dominant human is the first step they need to take, which will help with the second problem they face. Working with the subordinant dog's aggression is the next step, and I agree that they could benefit from a trainer for help with this.


To clear up potential confusion:

ALPHA ROLL is the act of physically pinning the dog to the ground in an effort to make him *submit* or in a (IMO) mis-guided attempt to assert dominance.

ALPHA ROLE is assuming a leadership position. A benelovent leader is in control of resources. This is a good thing and is often a key part of solving behavior problems.

Many people suggest that, in being the "ALPHA", you must alpha roll (the physical one) your dog if he gets out of line. I strongly disagree with that part.


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## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

How often do you walk them,and how long each walk

I have two brothers un altered at 10months

they were fine until I returned to work 4weeks ago,before when off work took them twice a day for 2 to 3 hours walk,when I started 10hrs a day they started getting agressive with each other..

When i come home from work at least hour or more walk to get out all that energy buit up out


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

I agree the E-collars will make it worse so get rid of them. Get them nuetered, now this will not solve your problems at all, but will take the edge off. Get an experienced, qualifyed, professional trainer to work with you. Until then I would keep them apart and exercise them very very well. Avoid conflict.


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## Zapto (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks for your advice, all of you, I'm going to have them neutered ASAP, and I have contacted a behaviorist, and threw away the shock collars 

Thanks for all your help, i will post back and let you know how its going in a week or so. Thanks Everyone!


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Great job, that is a positive step. Please keep us posted and good luck.


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## lovealways_jami (Apr 17, 2007)

The Alpha Roll worked with My 1 year old male and my fiance', but it didnt work for me. Also Im agreeing with no muzzle or shock collar. My problem with the shock collar is that you are not disciplining the dogs, the collar is. A collar is taking the place of an alpha male, thus might be the reason you are no longer considered the Alpha. They do not know what that sensation is when they are fighting, they just know it hurts which probably makes things worse. 
I must say I disagree with rehoming. Plenty of people have brothers, and not everyone has this problem. I agree with training... JMO but rehoming doesnt solve any problems the pet has with aggression? It takes away the factor thats causing the behavior for AWHILE, but chances are good that this dog will see another male again, and it will happen over and over. These owners love their dogs as does everyone else on this forum, so lets take away this "rehoming" factor and give some real advice. GET A TRAINER, it makes perfect sense. Thank you for coming here and I welcome you with open arms and heart. Try long walks also ... Diesel seems to calm a lot after a quick run. ~This is not directed toward anyone, I promise! This is just an opinion like everyone else's".


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## lovealways_jami (Apr 17, 2007)

Zapto said:


> Thanks for your advice, all of you, I'm going to have them neutered ASAP, and I have contacted a behaviorist, and threw away the shock collars
> 
> Thanks for all your help, i will post back and let you know how its going in a week or so. Thanks Everyone!


GREAT NEWS! It's nice to see someone who is willing to take charge and get to the point! You will see a major change I suppose! Keep us all updated!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Swampcollie said:


> *Get those E-collars off the dogs right now!* That is a complete and utter mis-use of the E-collar. The E-collars WILL make things worse and escalate the issues between the dogs. (I train with E-collars six days a week and the approach you're using is going to do nothing but dig you a deeper hole to try and train your way out of.)
> 
> There is a reason most breeders and trainers recommend only getting one puppy at a time and putting some time (years) between getting the next one. Most people simply don't have enough spare hours in their day to devote to training and socializing two puppies at the same time. The boys don't respect you or your wifes position of leadership as they should. If they did, one word from you would send them to their respective corners to cool off.
> 
> To start overcoming the situation you and your wife are going to have to spend some serious one on one time with each dog individually, working on formal obedience skills to enhance your leadership position and control of each dog. Once you have that, you can begin to allow some supervised interaction between the dogs, tolerating absolutely no posturing or unsavory behavior by either dog.


I agree with everything SC said here...

Shock collars is a bad idea
Neutering is a good idea
Establishing yourself as leader is an excellent idea
Separating them until you've established yourself as the leader is a good idea
Getting help from a canine behaviorist if you don't know what you are doing is also a good idea
Practicing NILIF is a very good idea
Good Luck!


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## winewinn (Jan 7, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> To clear up potential confusion:
> 
> ALPHA ROLL is the act of physically pinning the dog to the ground in an effort to make him *submit* or in a (IMO) mis-guided attempt to assert dominance.
> 
> ...


Yes -- I agree. What I was trying to get across, and I think you also have the same position, is that there's more to being "alpha" than just doing the roll. It's about being the pack leader, and becoming the pack leader does not mean that you do this physically or fight to get there. They're quite the opposite. It's the "want to be pack leader" that does so by fighting.

The alpha roll could work in this case, but first you need to establish yourself in the alpha role. Otherwise, like many others on this board have suggested, is that there's a possibility of being bitten by going between two fighting dogs. In fact, it shouldn't even get to the point of them fighting. There are sometimes cues to recognize before they break out into a fight where it should stop first.


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

Well....I tried answering this last night but my interent cut me off and I am kinda glad it did, cause what I worte last night would have peed off some people...
So, I will say tonight after reading all the post that...
OP...
I am glad you have found a behaviorist, I am glad you are NOT going to seperate the brothers, I am VERY HAPPY you are wanting to work with your dogs to solve this problem, I am glad you are going to neuter them, but know that it takes about 6 months for the testosterone (SP) to leave the body completely, not 1 month. 

Remember to stay consistant and mainly CALM IF you have to break up any fights, a Calm Pack Leader = Calm dogs....

Good luck and please do keep us posted...


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

kerribear's golden kids said:


> I am glad you are NOT going to seperate the brothers, I am VERY HAPPY you are wanting to work with your dogs to solve this problem...


Just to clarify, most of the suggestions to "seperate" the dogs were not meant to suggest that the owner rehome one of them. Rather, many of us were saying to keep them seperate in the house until a trainer could come to help so that neither of the dogs (nor the owners) would be hurt in a fight. I too am very glad that the OP is working through this problem with a qualified trainer and just wanted to make sure that you and, perhaps more importantly, the OP did not get the wrong impression from my (or others') statements to keep the dogs seperated for now.

Julie and Jersey


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

I too meant I was glad he was not re-homing either of them. Sorry if I wrote that in a weird way! And yes I agree to keep them sepearte in crates until he gets some help.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Oh good... I just wanted to make sure that it didn't seem everyone was telling the OP to rehome his dog after he said that wasn't an option. That wouldn't be too productive!

Julie and Jersey


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

LOL I didn't think thats what you meant at all and agree keep them seperate until everything is planned.


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## Buddy Banana (Aug 11, 2007)

Get them both neutred - I have a golden and a doberman, both males 3 months apart in age. There aggression is probabaly testostorone fuled at this age which means that neutering will have a good chance of reducing this.

If after getting them neutred it carries on get a behaviourist to help re-train them as it can become habbit.

My dogs are now 14 and 17 months and have become inseperable - they had their moments when younger but neutering really helps with any hormone fuled aggression.


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