# Can you really reinforce "fear?"



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Like many, I used to believe that it was easy to reinforce fear in a dog. I'm not so sure anymore. As Patricia McConnell points out, fear is designed to be aversive.

http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/you-cant-reinforce-fear-dogs-and-thunderstorms/

I've read the mentioned BARK and APDT Chronicle articles too and it all makes a lot of sense to me.

NOW -- I don't think people should waste too much time trying to soothe and comfort their dogs. NOT because I think it's rewarding the fear, but b/c I think it's wasting time that could be spent trying to desensitize and counter condition -- or otherwise just help the dog GET OVER whatever is worrying him.

Thoughts?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Here's a related article by Pia Silvani:

http://www.sthuberts.org/petpouri/articles/fear_factor.asp

And here's another version with an audio interview with Silvani:

http://www.nj.com/pets/index.ssf/2009/06/reinforcing_fear_why_the_debat.html


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

I agree with her statement that you are not reinforcing fear but it was my understanding that during scary situations if you "Jollied" the dog through the thunder or whatever you would be showing your dog that you were fearless and that would transfer to your dog. Now you have me questioning that as well. ::doh:


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I am not a professional, but I do totally believe that it's very possible to reinforce fear. I see it a lot with foster dogs. Especially those who are thunderphobic. Their owners used to comfort them when they were scared because they felt badly for them and the thunderpobia increased to such a level that they were turned over to the rescue. Now, I have not had a foster who destroyed a house because of thunderphobia, but I did have one who would wake me up in the middle of the night digging deep scratches into my arms because she was so frantic. After about 6 months of not comforting her and basically ignoring the panicked behavior, the severity eased immensely.

I also have dealt with it with my personal dog (my lab/golden) and by not coddling her, after a few years of coddling her before I knew better, her fears have eased immensely.

My Jasper is also severely thunderphobic, but he is extremely sound sensitive, so any loud noise can freak him out. Counter conditioning has helped a lot with his fears. His thunderphobia was brought on by a lightning strike on a tree that was 10 feet away from us. That's enough to make anyone thunderphobic! That is also the time that his noise sensitivity came on full force.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Oaklys Dad said:


> I agree with her statement that you are not reinforcing fear but it was my understanding that during scary situations if you "Jollied" the dog through the thunder or whatever you would be showing your dog that you were fearless and that would transfer to your dog. Now you have me questioning that as well. ::doh:


I think technically what you're doing is trying to desensitize the dog to the fearful stimulus. Assuming that your dog found your jolly routine to be rewarding in some way, you're pairing the jolly routine reward with the "scary thing" and ultimately helping to make the "scary thing" less scary b/c of the pairing -- and the dog's association changing over time.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

fostermom said:


> I am not a professional, but I do totally believe that it's very possible to reinforce fear. I see it a lot with foster dogs. Especially those who are thunderphobic. Their owners used to comfort them when they were scared because they felt badly for them and the thunderpobia increased to such a level that they were turned over to the rescue. Now, I have not had a foster who destroyed a house because of thunderphobia, but I did have one who would wake me up in the middle of the night digging deep scratches into my arms because she was so frantic. After about 6 months of not comforting her and basically ignoring the panicked behavior, the severity eased immensely.
> 
> I also have dealt with it with my personal dog (my lab/golden) and by not coddling her, after a few years of coddling her before I knew better, her fears have eased immensely.
> 
> My Jasper is also severely thunderphobic, but he is extremely sound sensitive, so any loud noise can freak him out. Counter conditioning has helped a lot with his fears. His thunderphobia was brought on by a lightning strike on a tree that was 10 feet away from us. That's enough to make anyone thunderphobic! That is also the time that his noise sensitivity came on full force.


I wonder though, how many of those owners were somewhat frantic while attempting to console their dogs? I could see THAT having an effect.... vs. just sitting and calmly petting and tossing in the occassional, "You're okay".


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

It sounds good in theory but doesn't explain why dogs who are coddled during something scary usually continue to act the same way in the future, while dogs who are "jollied up" tend to get over it faster.

I have sometimes wondered if some dogs aren't really experiencing fear so much after repeated exposure, but instead just mimicking the behavior they used the last time in that situation that got them rewarded. Which is why, when my dogs are frightened by something, we have a party. 

Conner doesn't like the sound of a collapsing wire crate. If every time he heard that sound I pulled him into me to stroke and hug him, that would become his default behavior. Maybe after awhile he wouldn't really be scared of it anymore, but he would probably still come try to lean into me for his strokes and hugs. Instead, every time we hear that noise, I thow my hands up in the air, have him leap up, and we dance in a circle. Now when he hears that noise, after his initial eye squint and look, he will look back at me expectantly, waiting for the party to start.

So, I don't really know what the dogs are thinking or feeling, but I know that I don't like the results that I've seen of dogs being stroked and reassured.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I still prefer to try and help dogs "get over it" sooner rather than later, but I guess it just bugs me now that I realize - DUH - fear is aversive... it totally makes sense that no amount of coddling will reinforce the emotion of fear. Now - behavior can be rewarded, so you have to watch that you aren't rewarding behavior you don't want -- like coming in and leaning on you after the scary noise vs. going into party mode. 

I'm mostly thinking in the cases of EXTREMELY FEARFUL or even phobic dogs - many people have been told that any petting, etc. can make it worse, and now I feel that's not the case. In fact, in many cases, calm petting may in fact make it better and help put the dog in a better emotional state where actual learning might take place.

Just thinking out loud really...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I wonder though, how many of those owners were somewhat frantic while attempting to console their dogs? I could see THAT having an effect.... vs. just sitting and calmly petting and tossing in the occassional, "You're okay".


I think your assessment is correct. I don't think you can "reinforce" fear in the strictest sense (i.e, by pairing it with a positive stimulus), but I think you can teach the dog he's right to be afraid if you use a high-pitched, whining voice to comfort him, and that's the voice a lot of us would naturally use.

I find "you're fine" and a nice treat help lessen anxiety. I don't think you can "reinforce" fear in that fashion. I do think you can reinforce the response by accidentally making the dog think you're frightened too.


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## Bozema (Nov 23, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I wonder though, how many of those owners were somewhat frantic while attempting to console their dogs? I could see THAT having an effect.... vs. just sitting and calmly petting and tossing in the occassional, "You're okay".


I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think dogs look to us for our reaction when they are fearful. If we are calm, they will draw on that. One of my dogs is a little spooky at loud noises and I usually give him a few pats and tell him it's OK while staying upbeat and relaxed myself like no chaos at all is going on. I think he does look to my reaction and if I'm not worried, he settles down a lot quicker. A common reaction for him is to settle in close by to me rather than run and hide, bark or pace, which is what a lot of really fearful dogs seem to do. If I were frantic in my attempts to calm him down, I'm not sure this would be his typical reaction.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I wonder what petting/grooming might mean to a dog who's nervous. I know sometimes dogs do it when they're nervous, so perhaps sometimes petting can backfire too?


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I'm mostly thinking in the cases of EXTREMELY FEARFUL or even phobic dogs - many people have been told that any petting, etc. can make it worse, and now I feel that's not the case. In fact, in many cases, calm petting may in fact make it better and help put the dog in a better emotional state where actual learning might take place.
> 
> Just thinking out loud really...


And I think that's true. That's why I mentioned my dog with severe sound phobia. If we have a huge thunderstorm at night, I invite him into bed and hold him close to me. I don't coddle or baby talk to him, but I do give him the reassurance he absolutely needs. He will tremble and pant for the duration of the storm, but it eases off a ton when I allow him into the bed and hold him close to me.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

tippykayak said:


> I wonder what petting/grooming might mean to a dog who's nervous. I know sometimes dogs do it when they're nervous, so perhaps sometimes petting can backfire too?


I think self-grooming is a calming attempt, so if we pet/groom, IMO, it will either help calm the dog (if the dog finds it rewarding) or have no effect at all. I don't think the contact by itself (absent of frantic human emotion) can backfire.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I think self-grooming is a calming attempt, so if we pet/groom, IMO, it will either help calm the dog (if the dog finds it rewarding) or have no effect at all. I don't think the contact by itself (absent of frantic human emotion) can backfire.


I was just theorizing, since I've heard people report that petting seems to make an anxious dog worse during a storm. I don't know how to explain that except if the dog interprets it as a nervous licking behavior.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

tippykayak said:


> I was just theorizing, since I've heard people report that petting seems to make an anxious dog worse during a storm. I don't know how to explain that except if the dog interprets it as a nervous licking behavior.


Have you *seen* the way some people pet their dogs?!? :doh: I always joke that I'm going to run a semiar on how to pet a dog so that they actually enjoy it! Haha! Not trying to be mean, but watch how people pet their dogs. Really watch the dog's face and how they move their body toward or away from the handler. I'd say EASILY half the people I see petting their dogs are doing so in such is, without meaning to, annoyng the dog! Thumpy petting... super fast, "noogie-style" petting... Maybe the people who report that petting made it worse are petting in a non-calming manner?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I keep thinking back to an incident a few months ago. I was sitting on the back steps with the dogs during a thunderstorm. My Lhasa crawled into my lap and I began stroking him (just a calm, slow, occasional stroke). I started to notice that he kept trying to dig deeper into my lap and his body kept getting tenser. When it clicked what was happening I stood up and made him do a few tricks and he was fine.

Of course, this dog wasn't really experiencing extreme fear, he was just a little nervous. If he had truly been in a state of fear I doubt I would have gotten him to comply with the tricks.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

During something like a storm, I act like nothing is happening, as do all my dogs. I might laugh a little and say, "What's up? You hear something?" and then I shrug and carry on. The rare thunder-phobic foster I get generally gets over it in that environment. I don't get them often- it thunders every day here for six months of the year. Most dogs are pretty well conditioned to it. Mine don't even notice.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I'm mostly thinking in the cases of EXTREMELY FEARFUL or even phobic dogs - many people have been told that any petting, etc. can make it worse, and now I feel that's not the case. In fact, in many cases, calm petting may in fact make it better and help put the dog in a better emotional state where actual learning might take place.


Well, I think you can reinforce fear but that is dependent on the dog. I definitely agree that there is a big difference to cuddling and calmly petting. I think your demeanor is important, not whether or not you are petting the dog.

Actually, I guess that is what she is getting at "It is true that you can make your dog more afraid than he already is, by doing something yourself that scares him, by forcing him into situations that scare him already or by being afraid yourself. Emotions are contagious, so if you want your dog to be afraid of thunder, then be afraid yourself! But you’re not going to make him more afraid of storms if you stroke his head and tell him it’s going to be okay."

Not sure about the people analogies though. :no: People are always trying to compare dogs to wolves or dogs to people....but they are really neither


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Have you *seen* the way some people pet their dogs?!? :doh: I always joke that I'm going to run a semiar on how to pet a dog so that they actually enjoy it! Haha! Not trying to be mean, but watch how people pet their dogs. Really watch the dog's face and how they move their body toward or away from the handler. I'd say EASILY half the people I see petting their dogs are doing so in such is, without meaning to, annoyng the dog! Thumpy petting... super fast, "noogie-style" petting... Maybe the people who report that petting made it worse are petting in a non-calming manner?


Oh, LOL. I figured people knew how to pet OK, but I guess not. Yeah, thumping on the dog could make him more nervous. 

Oh hey - how much do you want to bet that people are restraining the dog in some way in order to deliver the petting? I bet that would shoot the anxiety through the roof too. If the dog wants to pace, and you're holding his collar or, worse, hugging him in some way, I bet you could really supercharge the anxiety.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

This is interesting to me. Thunderstorms were new to Daisy when we first moved here, she was really scared the first summer. She would find small spaces to hide in, she would even hide in the bathtub. I was able to work through that with her using just my common sense, and caring  

I started to give her high reward activities to distract her (a marrow bone worked well). And I let her hide if she wanted to. I figured if she was able to do something to help herself that wasn't destructive, that couldn't be bad. If I thought we might have a storm while I was away at work, I would arrange the furniture so that she would have a place to hide if she needed to. 

The next summer she wasn't quite as afraid so we would sit out on the porch and watch the storms roll in together. And now she's fine. In fact, a couple of summers ago, we were at the lake fishing when a bad storm rolled in -- she wanting nothing more than to get back to the water! She was not afraid at all, I had to hold her back! LOL

Looking back, I can't say that I didn't coddle her or pet her more or tend to her more when she was afraid. But none of what I did reinforced her fear because obviously she's not afraid anymore.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Thanks so much Steph. People have been telling me for years to ignore my dogs (I've had two) with thunder anxiety and my gut always said BS! I learned a long time ago to trust my gut and intuition. I could no more ignore Gunner when he is terrified than I could my child when they were sick.

My vet ignores his thunder phobic dog. I asked him if the dog is now unafraid, if ignoring him worked? No , he said the dog crawls under the bed and shakes. Wow, nice guy! I have NEVER seen a case where ignoring worked. 

I believe it may depend on how strong the anxiety is. Gunner is an anxious dog when it comes to loud noises and even bright lights in the dark (lightening) I used to get up with him, turn on all the lights, pet him, say it's OK and watch TV. It helped some but he was still shaking/panting and would jump and pace at any loud thunder, depending on how bad the storm was. We tried everything: tranquilizers, RR, anxiety wrap etc We then gave him melatonin which worked for awhile but even though he seems calmer, he still shakes and pants.
I now lay by him in bed (he is on the floor with his head up by the wall. He feels safer there) and massage him with T Touch. This has worked the best. We also have room darkening shutters and a dead air noise machine going which helps except with very loud thunder. It usually only takes a few min and he calms down.

Reassuring Gunner and petting him during a storm has not stopped his anxiety (I believe his anxiety is a brain/ health issue, not a learned behavior) but it has not made it worse either, in fact he is much better when I am petting him. To do other wise, would be cruel in my book.

Also if you could encourage/cause storm terror, then Selka would have developed it too seeing Gunnie get so much attention during a storm. Selka either sleeps through or gets up and looks at us like "What's going on?"

I plan on reading all the links you provided.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

As one of the posters said in response to the article....there is a difference from the 'fear/anxiety' and the behavioral response to the fear....pacing, barking, digging etc...

I think it is fine to offer comfort so long as you're careful not to reinforce the _behaviors_that worry or drive you nuts - which then turn around make the dog more anxious.

When my dogs are content and relaxed I go out of my way to stoke them in the same place, offer the same words..make an effort to use the same stroke/same pressure.
When fearful...I use those same strokes in my awkward, feeble attempt at recreating a relaxation response.....no real way to measure if it works....other then I know it calms me...I can hope there is some spill over ;-)


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I think Brian is right on here, when a dog shows fearful behavior (not necessarily when a dog feels fear) and we comfort and coddle the dog, they learn that that behavior is what we wanted and expect in that situation, because we have rewarded them for it. 
When we have dogs come into the pet hotel who are a little overwhelmed at first, I ask owners NOT to reinforce the behavior by fussing over the dog. Just a couple of very matter-of-fact, "you're fine" and off we go without making a big deal of it gets them past the behavior so much faster. We act calm and assured, without coddling them for the behavior, and they quickly realize it's nothing to worry about.
IMHO




tippykayak said:


> I think your assessment is correct. I don't think you can "reinforce" fear in the strictest sense (i.e, by pairing it with a positive stimulus), but I think you can teach the dog he's right to be afraid if you use a high-pitched, whining voice to comfort him, and that's the voice a lot of us would naturally use.
> 
> I find "you're fine" and a nice treat help lessen anxiety. I don't think you can "reinforce" fear in that fashion. I do think you can reinforce the response by accidentally making the dog think you're frightened too.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I think coddling can give mixed messages. If you are all over the dog clinging, petting, soothing....those actions might give the message "I'm scared too".

During the fourth of July we lay on the floor watching TV, being available to Lucky if he wants to smush on top of us, and we will pet him but we are careful to act "normal" and try not to send a message that this bad noise effects us badly.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I think Brian is right on here, when a dog shows fearful behavior (not necessarily when a dog feels fear) and we comfort and coddle the dog, they learn that that behavior is what we wanted and expect in that situation, because we have rewarded them for it.
> When we have dogs come into the pet hotel who are a little overwhelmed at first, I ask owners NOT to reinforce the behavior by fussing over the dog. Just a couple of very matter-of-fact, "you're fine" and off we go without making a big deal of it gets them past the behavior so much faster. We act calm and assured, without coddling them for the behavior, and they quickly realize it's nothing to worry about.
> IMHO


Just to clarify, I don't think we reinforce the fear because we do something pleasant for the dog, but because our attempts to calm are probably misinterpreted as signs of anxiety on our part. I don't think you can reinforce fear with something that's actually comforting to the dog. I bet we're on the same page, but I thought it might need clarification.


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