# Ichthyosis help!



## jeffscott947 (Jun 9, 2019)

*Have you consulted your vet yet? *

With health conditions deteriorating fast in the USA today, it is becoming harder and harder to get appointments, with many vets limiting appointments and/or the conditions for getting a pet admitted. The situation is deteriorating fast, and I would suggest getting your pup in ASAP if at all possible. TBH, I had to look that illness up and it is nothing to play with imo.

I also suggest not risking infecting yourself or your family which unfortunately is possible when venturing out in public (Many states are either implementing mandatory store/business closings and/or* mandatory Shelter in Place directives.*
My vet will no longer allow a client into the practice, and we must remain outside in the car, as a vet employee retrieves the pet and any communications are then via phone.They have also ceased performing any elective surgeries and procedures.

In my state, it is still unclear if a pet illness is deemed _"necessary"_ to legally violate such emergency proclamations. The officials here are way to busy trying to protect the public, and as yet have not addressed many impending issues.

Good luck to you and yours.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Ichthyosis has a DNA test- there is nothing the vet can do that needs a fast run in.. Many genetic companies carry it- probably the cheapest single test is done by pawprint but if you think you want to know all his other conditions genetically, Embark is your best bet. Do not panic. With both parents carriers, it is likely he is too- but even if he were affected, most of the time it is a super annoying housekeeping problem and no more.


----------



## jeffscott947 (Jun 9, 2019)

Ask YOUR vet! A vet has the education and training to decide what is the best course to follow.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

And I say to the OP that Jeff 'had to look this up' and ICT is something most all of us know more about than practitioners- really- and I rarely say that. This is one of those things, though. Even if you have a cutting edge vet who keeps up on skin conditions, that vet is going to see no symptoms (per your post and it is an obvious condition so you would know ) and IF the vet knows there is a DNA test, will suggest the DNA test. Which you can do yourself at home. You can also search here if you have better luck w the search engine than I do and while it IS an awful mess to have an affected puppy, yours is not affected or he would have flakes by now. They usually show up around 5-6 weeks. Do not worry. If you were not buying a breeding animal, there is no need to be angry w the breeder. If you did buy a breeding boy, it IS going to affect your choices (or rather, those who would choose your dog).
Now- unless this is an amazing, no other way, breeding- it IS irresponsible to breed two carriers -in my opinion- not because it makes more carriers but because of the rare case of ICT that has associated GI problems and way worse than 90% of the affecteds problems. Why put that housekeeping mess on pet homes? It's just dumb imo. Odds are that w 2 carriers breeding half of the puppies will be carriers, 25% not, and 25% affected. Those odds are for each puppy and the status of one does not influence the status of the others. edit: being a carrier has not been shown to be associated w any disease state or likelihood to suffer from other conditions. I've gotten ICT gene twice from frozen semen breedings. Having a breeding animal who is a carrier is a little more work to do well but other than that it's just a mutated allele that was inherited.


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

I have a two year old with ICT. I didn’t know he had it when I bought him, found out through DNA testing. For him it’s the equivalent of dandruff. I don’t see it daily. If he is stressed it will pop up. I give him a fish oil supplement that I think helps.
He doesn’t itch or leave flakes in my house unless he’s having a flare up. He’s had 2 in two years. One when I sent him to a trainer which obviously stressed him out, and one last month. Not sure why he did it last month? Maybe just with his shedding?
Your vet will likely not be much help. You may have to vacuum a little more, but let’s be honest you bought a Golden, your gonna vacuum. I have black carpet and interior in my Jeep so I find it annoying when he has flakes and we go somewhere. 
It’s a DNA test, not a required clearance. Would I breed two affected dogs? No Would I consider returning him? No

I’ve found it’s more acceptable in performance lines, but I do think that’s changing.


----------



## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

jeffscott947 said:


> *Have you consulted your vet yet? *
> 
> With health conditions deteriorating fast in the USA today, it is becoming harder and harder to get appointments, with many vets limiting appointments and/or the conditions for getting a pet admitted. The situation is deteriorating fast, and I would suggest getting your pup in ASAP if at all possible. TBH, I had to look that illness up and it is nothing to play with imo.
> 
> ...


I would really like to come on this forum and read about Golden Retriever related topics and escape the corona virus panic inducing speculation! Can't you find a more appropriate place to share your panic?


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

jeffscott947 said:


> *Have you consulted your vet yet? *
> 
> With health conditions deteriorating fast in the USA today, it is becoming harder and harder to get appointments, with many vets limiting appointments and/or the conditions for getting a pet admitted. The situation is deteriorating fast, and I would suggest getting your pup in ASAP if at all possible. TBH, I had to look that illness up and it is nothing to play with imo.
> 
> ...


What is the matter with you? Are you trying to instill fear into people. Ichthyosis is a simple genetic test that causes high levels of dandruff. Why are you trying to panic people? It's a simple test that is ordered online and you can send it in. There is no need for anyone to risk going out for this.

As you said vets are screening people for IMPORTANT health issues. This is a nuisance issue really. You really just need to stop this fear mongering. People are already in edge with this pandemic.


----------



## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Denver has DNA confirmed ICH. We noticed it at 6 weeks when we were visiting the pups with the breeder. I asked the breeder about the dry skin (I only really noticed it on his belly) and she shrugged it off as puppy dandruff. Both of his parents DID have DNA testing through animal genetics. His Dam is affected/asymptomatic and his sire came back as CLEAR.

Because his parents had the clearances we believed that it was puppy dandruff and called our vet who said that was very very common. We picked Denver up at 8 weeks and he had just been groomed and ready to go home with us, and there was not a single flake in sight. We kept up with brushing and bathing and didn’t have another problem until we went to the beach last summer. He is crazy about the water and spent much of the time in the ocean and the sand. We thoroughly hosed him down after the beach every single time and even gave him one bath while we were there.

After that we noticed flaking on his legs and belly, but we assumed it was the drying salt water. I fully groom and bathe him every 2 weeks, and he gets brushed every day, so that pretty much takes care of it and keeps it at bay.

I just had a full DNA panel run on him through Paw Print (not because of the flaking but because I want to be respected and taken seriously by breeders in hopes that I can get a show puppy next) and low and behold, he came back as AFFECTED. The whole process was EASY!!! I bought the test online, they sent me the kit, I swabbed Denver’s mouth while I had him on the grooming table and sent the samples off in the mail that night. I had the results back in 9 days. I did not need to see the vet at all.

I wasn’t surprised considering his dam was also affected, but I did have a lot of questions....especially given the fact that his sire got a CLEAR from Animal Genetics Labs?? It did spark an interesting conversation with his breeder....

Anyway this is a roundabout way of saying, ichthyosis isn’t always a terrible thing, for us we didn’t even know he had it until the salt water caused it to flare up, and even then after a few baths with a good shampoo it has been under control. We have added an omega supplement in capsule form, and we had given him omega treats all along for his coat. He doesn’t have any other issues like GI problems or anything else. We vacuum every day for the shedding so it is not something that it typically noticed. Our vet says he typically sees goldens with flakes but just chalks it up to dry weather, poor diet or lack of proper grooming, but it’s probably more common than you think because most cases are mild.

Would I ever knowingly purchase an affected puppy again? No I would not. I think we are luckily in that unless you were really looking, you would never know Denver was affected.


----------



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Jeff we had a sign at work years ago that said "Attitudes are contagious is yours worth catching" Yours is not and this isn't the place to share it.


----------



## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

A reminder all-










"About Threads and Posts in GRF Health Forum"


You are entitled to your opinions on what you believe may or may not be a health issue, or what may or may not work to help an animal in its overall health. However if a post or thread is stated as a fact you may be asked to prove your statements, even with scientific articles, so others may...




www.goldenretrieverforum.com








> You are entitled to your opinions on what you believe may or may not be a health issue, or what may or may not work to help an animal in its overall health.
> 
> However if a post or thread is stated as a fact you may be asked to prove your statements, even with scientific articles, so others may know where you obtain your information.
> 
> ...


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)




----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

And I will add to Kate's- when someone posts 'I had to look this up!! It's(whatever he called it - nasty stuff?) go to your vet!'.. and that person HAS NO EXPERIENCE he is just regurgitating minimal Dr Google (hmmm). For that matter, he is on his first Golden, and is not involved in the breed in any way other than the GRF and he contributes nothing here on GOLDENS. He has no experience,

and then tosses in the whole Covid mess, as he does in every single post- we are not stupid. It is annoying. We all have the same info he does, and do not need his advice. Just stop saying anything if you do not personally know about the condition- ICT in this case. Believe me- I have taught vets about ICT.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

This puppy- OPs puppy- has no symptoms. This puppy would benefit from a DNA test. That's all.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

ChicagoMom2 said:


> The breeder did not mention this to me- told me that they had all clearances and i believed her. (Bad move now I know).


1st of all BUYER BEWARE
You purchased a pup from an unscrupulous breeder. If I were you I would post the breeders name and tell everyone I knew.
Fortunately it is unlikely to be more than an inconvenience. I would be curious as to what else the breeder may not have divulged, to you or others.
Do you have Limited Registration? That weeds out the dishonest breeders, or so I hear.


----------



## OscarsDad (Dec 20, 2017)

I hope no one insists that I see my general practitioner if I've cut my finger and from my experience it requires an anti-bacterial ointment and a bandaid...


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I am in agreement with Prism, It really annoying when people are spouting on and on repeatedly about the same things over and over in the same posts and multiple posts at that. It might be different if people would state an opinion once but not 5 times saying the same thing trying to beat their opinion into people. If you mention anything to the contrary of their opinion, they just come back twice as hard and over and over again instead of other people state their EXPERIENCE and opinions as well, it's annoying.

Also, creating fear for people to run their pets to the vet (because it is fear) for something like Icthyosis when it's not an emergency and he himself is saying vets do not want you to bring your animal in unless it's sick or some emergency. ICT is NOT anything of the sort. He's his own contradiction.


----------



## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

To the OP... hope you are still here and didn't get scared off by some of the replies. There are really, really knowledgeable people here - the long time members, the breeders, members who own dogs with the same condition are giving you valuable advice. Check how long they have been memebrs and how many posts they have under their names. Try not to worry. Definitely don't panic. If he does have it, there is nothing immediate you can do. Enjoy your pup, and if he does have it, people here and your vet will be good resources to manage it.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I have had an ICT affected dog in the past, and sadly, he had gastrointestinal issues probably related to it. Also, it tends to get much worse when they become seniors.


----------



## ChicagoMom2 (May 14, 2019)

Thanks all! My question for those that had affected dogs is when did you notice it? Should I see something by now? Note that I may have inspected him w a flashlight while he was sleeping.... I do have an upcoming vet appt and will of course ask. Just looking for some owner advice while I was stressing! Thank you


----------



## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Regarding the info I posted, this is a policy of the Site Owners and was posted as a reminder.


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Chicago

My dog was affected. She never showed a symptom. Vet saw nothing either.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

ChicagoMom2 said:


> Thanks all! My question for those that had affected dogs is when did you notice it? Should I see something by now? Note that I may have inspected him w a flashlight while he was sleeping.... I do have an upcoming vet appt and will of course ask. Just looking for some owner advice while I was stressing! Thank you


There is nothing that can be done IF he is an ICT affected animal. Usually an affected is a matter of a housekeeping irritation-I had one for training that I swear it took months and months to get the outline of her crate out of my cloth upholstery from ONE car ride... and like I mentioned before, affecteds appear to be GI weaker than other dogs in an inflammatory way. 
It is possible to be affected and not be symptomatic, though, so since you have the product of two carriers, it's a good idea to do the DNA. Be sure when you do it not to contaminate the swab with other animal DNA, etc. Just follow the instructions. I think Embark is a bargain- they test for everything Goldens can carry that has a test and I think it's about$160 or so. Pawprint Genetics also has a test- you can do just the ICT test there for about $50 but both of them run sales pretty often so do no rely on my cost estimate!
Usually an affected will be apparent by 5-6 weeks or so, but there is always the possiblity of it not showing up in a timely way so the DNA test is the only way to diagnose it. Even if you asked your vet to do sampling biopsies, it's possible that will miss it and that is invasive. Stress not- it is what it is. He does have over 50% chance of being a carrier, and carrier animals have no associated issues. I'm sorry for my part of the back and forth on your question- I just cannot stand the constant fear mongering.. it does no one any good and wasn't pertinent to your question.


----------



## ChicagoMom2 (May 14, 2019)

Thank you! I will definitely order a test so we know what to plan for and hopefully get ahead of it if he is affected.


----------



## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

ChicagoMom2 said:


> Thanks all! My question for those that had affected dogs is when did you notice it? Should I see something by now? Note that I may have inspected him w a flashlight while he was sleeping.... I do have an upcoming vet appt and will of course ask. Just looking for some owner advice while I was stressing! Thank you


In my case, we didn’t notice it really until Denver was 8ish months (after initially noticing it at 6 weeks). Before then we saw minimal flaking here or there. We bathed every 2 weeks and brushed daily before then, and we also have him omega treats for his coat...so maybe we inadvertently caused his symptoms to be pretty mild from the beginning. Now that he’s older I do notice flaking if we go longer than a couple weeks without bathing. I’m pretty on top of it now that he is DNA confirmed, and he gets a fatty acid supplement now as well. He eats PPP focus chicken.

Edit: I went through paw print. At the time they were having a Valentine’s Day sale of 40% off and they literally run sales ALL the time.


----------



## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Just a reminder everyone, please be respectful to one another when making posts and keep the Forum Rules in mind when making posts.........


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

I noticed “puppy dandruff” and then it went away. I knew what I had when I sent him to the trainer and saw him a few days later and he clearly had white flakes, much larger then dandruff, and my guy is dark golden so it stood out. That was around 6-7 months. I had him DNA tested around 9 months and found out for sure. I didn’t DNA test because of ICT, I was worried about NCL. 
For my guy it seems to be very mild. I really have only seen flakes twice in two years and each time they lasted about a week. No itching, no GI issues, etc. I know that some have it much worse then others. I’m hoping ours stays the same. I feed PPP chicken Sport 30/20 and give omega supplements. It may be why it’s never gotten bad ?? I feed that blend because he’s very active.
I bathe him every other week. I do use a conditioner on him, but I do that with both my guys. I brush them both once a day and I do use a dog blow dryer. Moe dock dives in the summer and swims everyday so I always rinse him out.


----------



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Golden Retriever Ichthyosis is different that the Ichthyosis in other dogs. I have an affected dog who is asymptomatic most of the time. When she is not, it is a few flakes easily handled with basic grooming and adding fish oil supplements to the the diet. If the puppy is not showing any symptoms, you could order a test from paw print genetics or similar company to determine the puppy‘s status. If clear or carrier, you will never have any issues as the dog doesn’t have the issue. Even if the dog is affected there is a high chance that it will main asymptomatic.


----------



## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

I _might_ have an Embark coupon code laying around if you're interested. I did their Breeders Dog DNA test kit cause it gives you more info - that one runs $179, but I had a coupon that dropped the price to $99. If I don't have a coupon, they run sales pretty regularly. Sign up for their email list, sometimes they sent the coupons this way. Black Friday is their big sale, if you want to wait until then.

ETA: they have a coupon on their website for $30 off the breed + health kit (total $169, normal price $199). The code is MADNESS. I'll see if I have a better coupon.


----------



## jeffscott947 (Jun 9, 2019)

cwag said:


> I would really like to come on this forum and read about Golden Retriever related topics and escape the corona virus panic inducing speculation! Can't you find a more appropriate place to share your panic?


Luckily I am NOT in panic, and am fully prepared, unlike many others. Those unprepared are either in full denial or outright panic; thus the current mess at the retail level. Took 2 or my 3 dogs for a wellness check in the middle of February (the 3rd was in the end of last yr). Being prepared and doing all that we can do is not an exercise, and is not folly!

The sheer number of reads that posts relating to Corona19 (Like my DIY hand sanitizer thread..now closed down) are indicative of the large number of people that are VERY interested in any information that can be gleaned.
Members, and lurkers, not interested are always free to not read related material should they so choose.


*Unfortunately the virus affects not only us, but our ability to care for our dogs, thus the comments.
Since a sick dog requires VET intervention; it is prudent to be aware of ANYTHING that could affect the chances of getting care for those that we love.*


----------



## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Let's try to keep this thread on Topic, provide help to the OP with her question which is this-



> New puppy... hi all. We picked up a new puppy today... all very sudden and last minute from a breeder and discovered both parents are carriers of ichthyosis. The pup is 9 weeks. The breeder did not mention this to me- told me that they had all clearances and i believed her. (Bad move now I know). At pickup i asked for the clearance info and saw this. The pup looks perfect - I checked him thoroughly... but what do I do now? I’m super upset she misled me and now want to have him tested. She said we’d be able to see it at 9 weeks and his skin is perfect. Anyone here with a pup with this that can provide insight? My kids met him and are sooo excited (we brought him
> Home). I just don’t know what to do!


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

jeffscott947 said:


> Luckily I am NOT in panic, and am fully prepared, unlike many others. Those unprepared are either in full denial or outright panic; thus the current mess at the retail level. Took 2 or my 3 dogs for a wellness check in the middle of February (the 3rd was in the end of last yr). Being prepared and doing all that we can do is not an exercise, and is not folly!
> 
> The sheer number of reads that posts relating to Corona19 (Like my DIY hand sanitizer thread..now closed down) are indicative of the large number of people that are VERY interested in any information that can be gleaned.
> Members, and lurkers, not interested are always free to not read related material should they so choose.
> ...


There is a thread on the forum titled “COVID 19 RANT” perhaps you would enjoy contributing. It seems to still center around how it effects our caring for our pets during this time.
This person is looking for help with ICT which I understand since I have a dog with it. You can verify through his K9Data page.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

My feel on it is we keep COVID out of threads not titled COVID in some way so we can deal with the issues at hand and not be intruded on by the glare of tin foil hats. I find it extremely accosting and do not like fear mongering on anything, much less something that affects us all financially. We are all quite capable of using Google.


----------



## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> My feel on it is we keep COVID out of threads not titled COVID in some way so we can deal with the issues at hand and not be intruded on by the glare of tin foil hats. I find it extremely accosting and do not like fear mongering on anything, much less something that affects us all financially. We are all quite capable of using Google.


I agree 100%. I hope the OP has gotten some helpful advice from those of us with first hand experience with ICT and didn’t have to weed through too many off topic and not helpful replies.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I didn't notice it in my dog until he was several years old.


----------



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I did the test, Paw Prints Genetics and found my girl was a carrier... I was actually concerned about eye issues not ICT. She is 4 and has had no symptoms and now that I know her status, don't expect any. Keeping my fingers crossed for you! BTW the vet will not have a test for this, they don't do genetic testing and that's all ICT is. It's not a condition to catch or treat. Simply something that's passed on from the parents.
Not defending the breeder by any means but her statement was she did testing... too bad she doesn't understand why you do the testing or how to use the information. I do hope you will post her info to help other people not be fooled by her deceiption. You did good to notice both the test results and understand this was a bad breeding choice! Enjoy your pup, they don't stay small for long.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

An acquaintance in the field trail world recently ask what I knew about Ichthyosis in Goldens. He had an opportunity to buy a well bred pup at a discounted price because it was Ichthyosis affected. The breeder had done testing on the litter and disclosed the results due to both parents being carriers. This is an example of what a reputable breeder does.
He bought the pup after hearing from multiple sources that ICH is typically mild in Goldens. Last I heard the pup is doing very well a in training and ICH has been a non issue.




puddles everywhere said:


> I did the test, Paw Prints Genetics and found my girl was a carrier... I was actually concerned about eye issues not ICT. She is 4 and has had no symptoms and now that I know her status, don't expect any.


Carriers will not get ICH. They may get dandruff at times like many dogs do but only affected dogs will have ICH.


----------



## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I'm just curious about this. I just assumed a reputable breeder would avoid breeding 2 carriers. Was there a reason they would?


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I wouldn't breed 2 carries personally BUT I could suspect a breeder who saw really high end potential would risk it knowing not all would get the dominate gene and pick a pup that wasn't affected from the litter and sell the pups at a discount with full disclosure.

To me, that really would be the only reason and for me not a good enough one as breeders should be doing all they can NOT to perpetuate issues in the breed. Honestly that is really a selfish reason as eradicating things like ICT and other hereditary issues is always more important than potentially improving structure or whatever the breeder was trying to do.

Also, with genetics with dominate and recessive genes, it's a percentage of chance. A litter could get lucky and all be carrier but that is like hitting the lottery. Here is the basics for 2 dogs being carriers (carrying only 1 recessive gen when 2 are required for it to become dominate or expressed)...

When both parents are carriers for a recessive disorder, each pup has a 1 in 4 (25 percent) chance of inheriting the two changed gene copies. A pup who inherits two changed gene copies will be “affected,” meaning the pup has the disorder


----------



## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

In my opinion, I believe that the testing from Animal Genetics was faulty and gave my breeder a false CLEAR on the sire. Either that or the results that were provided to me were not accurate...I don’t want to say much more on that particular subject out of fear..

Anyway, she had stated that she bred the pair together because of the sire’s clear results knowing the Dam was affected. If Denver’s sire was actually CLEAR there is no scientific way he would be affected. I bet sire was actually a carrier. A half-sibling of Denver’s on K9Data is a carrier....and for that breeding Denver’s sire was bred to a clear bitch...so that half-sibling should be clear provided the results from animal genetics were accurate.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

cwag said:


> I'm just curious about this. I just assumed a reputable breeder would avoid breeding 2 carriers. Was there a reason they would?


With field Goldens the gene pool of very talented dogs is small. Some will breed 2 carriers that have good health clearances otherwise and are accomplished trial dogs. The thinking is to breed out ICH in future generations.
The same thinking probably exists in conformation, obedience, etc....
Full disclosure if ICH status and all other health issues is the hallmark of a reputable breeder.

Others only care about money.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Well if it's a false clear then I can understand how that would happen. In my post I just meant if a breeder knowingly bred to carriers together.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

SRW said:


> With field Goldens the gene pool of very talented dogs is small. Some will breed 2 carriers that have good health clearances otherwise and are accomplished trial dogs. The thinking is to breed out ICH in future generations.
> The same thinking probably exists in conformation, obedience, etc....
> Full disclosure if ICH status and all other health issues is the hallmark of a reputable breeder.
> 
> Others only care about money.


I understand lack of talent in the dogs, but I wouldn't buy from a breeder that keep breeding carriers or affected dog to another such and just let other people later breed out the issue such as ICT. When does that thinking stop?


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

If a breeder has 2 carriers as the parents - I basically think that's a case where testing was done after the breeding. I do not know too many who had previously tested dogs, knew their bitch was a carrier, and they still chose to use a boy who was also a carrier.


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Megora said:


> If a breeder has 2 carriers as the parents - I basically think that's a case where testing was done after the breeding. I do not know too many who had previously tested dogs, knew their bitch was a carrier, and they still chose to use a boy who was also a carrier.


It’s been different in the field world. It is more acceptable, or was, then I believe it is in other disciplines. I think current breeders are more selective, but some old performance breeders just didn’t think ICT was that big of a problem in Goldens. My own opinion is they are the ones from long ago that produced great dogs but didn’t stay on top of the changing requirements to be an “ethical breeder”. They worry about the 4 core requirements.
I will say I’m very proud of the current performance breeders for their response to NCL. I’m proud of the Golden community...


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> I understand lack of talent in the dogs, but I wouldn't buy from a breeder that keep breeding carriers or affected dog to another such and just let other people later breed out the issue such as ICT. When does that thinking stop?


I wouldn't buy from a breeder that "just kept breeding carriers for others to later breed out" Golden retrievers with the talent to be competitive in all age stakes are rare. Hard charging Goldens with all age placements get noticed. An FC or AFC Golden that is a carrier or even affected may be bred to another talented carrier. Hopefully there will soon be plenty of talent to choose from so field breeders can get more selective.



Megora said:


> If a breeder has 2 carriers as the parents - I basically think that's a case where testing was done after the breeding.


Breeding prior to testing for all health issues is irresponsible IMO.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

The excuse to breed dogs that are both carrier or affect to carrier because they are talented is still irresponsible in my opinion. Still wouldn't buy from a breeder (or consider them in the future) that chose to do this. A skin issue is not life changing to a dog like Hip/elbow issues or PRA for eye or NCL but it's still a hereditary problem and the more you just keep spreading those bad genes, the harder it will become to get non carriers and affecteds to "clean it up later". Not my idea of a breeder that is trying to better the breed, just trying to better their dogs in competition. Isn't it health before all else?

This goes back to the separation of show and field Goldens. They are still Goldens and the breed deserves better IMO.


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Eric I think the attitude actually has changed. Moe’s breeder bred carriers, but didn’t disclose that. He’s bred two litters since Moe. (One repeat breeding after knowing about Moe’s issues and a puppy with pituitary dwarfism out of Moe’s litter) I’m sure you can guess how I feel about that! I 100% agree that there is no excuse in breeding any health issue that is so easy to prevent. I also would say that there are some great field breeders out there that care about health, all aspects, and performance. My point was more that I think the Golden community is actually starting to align requirements more between performance and conformation then they use too. I’m sure there are extremes in both still, but overall I see great things. Maybe I’m looking in better places but I see a lot of quality litters these days.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> Breeding prior to testing for all health issues is irresponsible IMO.


That is not the same amount of irresponsibility and recklessness that goes with people knowing their dogs are carriers and knowingly breeding them to other carriers.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Both times I got ICT it was through frozen semen from long-dead dogs.. but there are enough good dogs out there I do not have to choose from carriers. That's my position, too, they're 'bettering the dog for competition' not health. BUT we do not know that is the case w the OP, just (like we always do!) further digging on a topic here (within the topic for educational reasons). With OP's case, we don't know when testing was done or why- or if the breeder was aiming for some amazing litter performance-wise or not. I could actually imagine that flakes showed up and before OP picked up pup results were back on sire and dam. I also imagine breeder owned both in that scenario, simply because it would take a couple weeks for results and hard to get test kits to a stud dog owner quickly.. Moe's breeder's astounding lack of responsibility still gets me every single time I think of there being (is it 3 repeats?) so many sibs on the ground due to repeating breedings that were problematic.


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Robin there are so many repeats I’ve lost track!! The last one was a few months ago and produced 2 puppies I think.
I found him because he was highly recommended by a field trainer for producing great athletes. Lesson learned! Versatility in the pedigree is where I’ll stay comfy from now on.
And I’ll do my own research....


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Prism Goldens said:


> Both times I got ICT it was through frozen semen from long-dead dogs.. but there are enough good dogs out there I do not have to choose from carriers.


Robin, the thing that occurs to me is that if breeders only keep bitches for breeding who are clear, that means they are not limited as to which studs they use. And you can do the tests pretty early.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

true.. but both times I got only one girl ...


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

SRW said:


> Breeding prior to testing for all health issues is irresponsible IMO.





Megora said:


> That is not the same amount of irresponsibility and recklessness that goes with people knowing their dogs are carriers and knowingly breeding them to other carriers.


Seriously? Breeding two highly talented dogs healthy and sound in all respects with the exception of being carriers of a condition that is rarely more than an inconvenience. Then testing and disclosing the status of the pups is worse than breeding two dogs prior to obtaining all health clearances?


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Thankfully, these two options are not the only ones. I don't believe ANYONE should breed a litter without obtaining health clearances.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> Eric I think the attitude actually has changed. Moe’s breeder bred carriers, but didn’t disclose that. He’s bred two litters since Moe. (One repeat breeding after knowing about Moe’s issues and a puppy with pituitary dwarfism out of Moe’s litter) I’m sure you can guess how I feel about that! I 100% agree that there is no excuse in breeding any health issue that is so easy to prevent. I also would say that there are some great field breeders out there that care about health, all aspects, and performance. My point was more that I think the Golden community is actually starting to align requirements more between performance and conformation then they use too. I’m sure there are extremes in both still, but overall I see great things. Maybe I’m looking in better places but I see a lot of quality litters these days.


I must have misread. I thought SRW was saying that it's was currently happening.

My bad if I misinterpreted that.


----------



## Jimsmukowski (Mar 10, 2020)

ChicagoMom2 said:


> New puppy... hi all. We picked up a new puppy today... all very sudden and last minute from a breeder and discovered both parents are carriers of ichthyosis. The pup is 9 weeks. The breeder did not mention this to me- told me that they had all clearances and i believed her. (Bad move now I know). At pickup i asked for the clearance info and saw this. The pup looks perfect - I checked him thoroughly... but what do I do now? I’m super upset she misled me and now want to have him tested. She said we’d be able to see it at 9 weeks and his skin is perfect. Anyone here with a pup with this that can provide insight? My kids met him and are sooo excited (we brought him
> Home). I just don’t know what to do!


call me I have a piece of advice for you I've been a ethical breeder of Golden retrievers for more than 30 years I'm very familiar with your situation


----------



## iwuollet (Feb 7, 2019)

cwag said:


> I would really like to come on this forum and read about Golden Retriever related topics and escape the corona virus panic inducing speculation! Can't you find a more appropriate place to share your panic?


I was going to comment the same, I don't think the answer has anything to do with what is being asked. Can people talk about something else? You are trying to stay away from the panic and here we find something that completely causes panic and has nothing to do with what's being answer.


----------



## iwuollet (Feb 7, 2019)

this is what I know about this issue:

Ichthyosis leads to a skin disease. The first symptoms appear between 1 and 18 months by multiplying large dandruff visible on the back and belly. The skin looks dirty and scaly, and becomes dry, rough and with a hyper-pigmentation. Increased hygiene measures (special shampoos) should be considered to prevent infectious complications. The breeder or veterinarian can confuse Ichthyosis with the presence of parasites on the skin that may also be responsible for dandruff. More than 50% of Golden Retrievers are carriers of the genetic mutation responsible of Ichthyosis. A breeder can mate without noticing a male « carrier » and a female « carrier » and produce a litter containing affected puppies. 
This is an interesting fact:
A dog « carrier » of the mutation will not develop the disease but transmits it to 50% of the puppies. A stallion « carrier » of the mutation which is used a lot for reproduction, spreads the disease through the breed and helps to increase the frequency of the mutation and multiply the number of affected dogs. I was told by the veterinarian dermatologist that in this case, a stud carried of the disease, will produce puppies with this condition.

A puppy can be affected if his two parents are carriers of the mutation. Breeders unaware of Ichthyosis can mate stud dogs and brood bitches carriers of the mutation and produce affected puppies which will not develop the disease before the age of 6 months.
A DNA test called ICT-A, can detect Ichthyosis of the Golden Retriever with a reliability above 99%

A breeder who knows the genetic status of the dog can select its breeding dogs, adapt mattings, avoid the birth of affected puppies and limit the spread of this skin disease in the breed. In other words, a breeder that has performed the test and was informed that both dogs have the mutation should NOT breed under any circumstances. 

This was told also by the vet:
It is possible to manage the condition in affected dogs, but it requires great diligence on the part of owners. Your veterinarian will work with you to find what is most helpful for your dog. Treatment will include frequent mild anti-seborrheic shampoos and moisturizing rinses. Due to the chronic, severe, incurable nature of the skin changes and the intense treatment required, many owners choose to have dogs with ichthyosis euthanized. I had a dog that had this condition and thankfully it was mild and with a lot of consistency and using the right stuff, it never got out of hand. He lived a normal life, but in my opinion, a dog should never go tough that, if a breeder knows both dogs, even one is a carrier, don't breed. People like us trying to get a dog, putting all our faith in "a good breeder" are the only ones paying the price. Is hard, is time consuming, is expensive, and we already paid a significant amount of money for the puppy.


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

iwuollet said:


> This was told also by the vet:
> It is possible to manage the condition in affected dogs, but it requires great diligence on the part of owners. Your veterinarian will work with you to find what is most helpful for your dog. Treatment will include frequent mild anti-seborrheic shampoos and moisturizing rinses. Due to the chronic, severe, incurable nature of the skin changes and the intense treatment required, many owners choose to have dogs with ichthyosis euthanized. I had a dog that had this condition and thankfully it was mild and with a lot of consistency and using the right stuff, it never got out of hand. He lived a normal life, but in my opinion, a dog should never go tough that, if a breeder knows both dogs, even one is a carrier, don't breed. People like us trying to get a dog, putting all our faith in "a good breeder" are the only ones paying the price. Is hard, is time consuming, is expensive, and we already paid a significant amount of money for the puppy.


If my vet told me that "many owners choose to have dogs with ichthyosis euthanized" I would be looking for a new vet. In SOME breeds it is a bigger problem. It is typically a nuisance in a Golden. As I stated earlier in this thread I have a 2 year old with it and have had 2 flare ups in 2 years that were no more then dandruff. A good omega supplement in the diet and a little extra vacuuming is NOT EVER something that I feel an ethical vet would consider euthanizing a dog for.


----------



## iwuollet (Feb 7, 2019)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> If my vet told me that "many owners choose to have dogs with ichthyosis euthanized" I would be looking for a new vet. In SOME breeds it is a bigger problem. It is typically a nuisance in a Golden. As I stated earlier in this thread I have a 2 year old with it and have had 2 flare ups in 2 years that were no more then dandruff. A good omega supplement in the diet and a little extra vacuuming is NOT EVER something that I feel an ethical vet would consider euthanizing a dog for.


I am just stating what this vet who is a dermatologist stated. Is a personal opinion what we want to do or not, in some cases, from what I was shown in some pictures, is not just dry skin or flare up, some dogs are covered in dry skin patches, with no fur, and have it really bad, I get why this vet mentioned that. My dog had it in one of his front legs, and it was a spot with rough skin and I had to daily use an oil, wash it weekly, and be very consistent in order to keep it from spreading or looking bad, but in some dogs is not the case. The pictures are devastating.


----------



## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)




----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> If my vet told me that "many owners choose to have dogs with ichthyosis euthanized" I would be looking for a new vet. In SOME breeds it is a bigger problem. It is typically a nuisance in a Golden. As I stated earlier in this thread I have a 2 year old with it and have had 2 flare ups in 2 years that were no more then dandruff. A good omega supplement in the diet and a little extra vacuuming is NOT EVER something that I feel an ethical vet would consider euthanizing a dog for.


Agreed! A vet that euthanizes a dog over something like ICT should have their DVM license revoked permanently and maybe even charges for animal cruelty. That's just insanely ridiculous.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

If the owner wants to euthanize, the vet can try to talk them out of it but it is ultimately an owner decision.
Some practices don't allow offering to relinquish and some do- and weirdly, many people have an 'if dog is not with me, he is not alive' and that is heartbreaking... it happens way more than you would think. And one might think, just say no... but that rarely happens because it's likely the animal will not get a humane death if euthanasia is refused by the vet. People are jerks sometimes....


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Euthanise a Golden for Ichthy? You have got to be kidding.

People you have to apply a little common sense when looking for a Veterinarian. There are some very fine ones available. There are also some that barely stumbled across the finish line to graduate. Its your job to sort out which ones can tell which end of a dog the food goes in and which end the poop comes out of. The diploma on the wall isn't going to tell you that. 

Baring the influence of other underlying conditions, I do not ever recall seeing a need to put a Golden down for Ichthy. (We're talking over fifty years here.)


----------



## iwuollet (Feb 7, 2019)

I have never meet such harsh and judgmental people, up until I became a member in this group. When someone comes to this group and shares something, such as an opinion, question, or something they were told, is not to be attacked with comments that make you feel like you're a complete criminal, or make you feel awful for simply replying to the thread. We are all adults, some with more knowledge than others. Talking bad about a veterinarian that you guys don't even know is quiet sad, even my 12 year old son know better than that. I respect you all and I'm glad you guys are so perfect, but there is one thing that I know and that is the fact that we all need to respect peoples opinions. I don't have anything bad to say about this veterinarian, I think that anybody that work in the medical field they're obligated to state all the options, and the facts depending on the circumstances. I wasn't told to euthanized my dog in particular, I was told about what happens in cases when this particular diagnosis leads to that point, but if some people decides that, I certainly respect that and as a civilized human, I will just leave it alone. If we are ever in a situation where we have to be judge, I doubt we want to be treated or have someone say the things that some of you have said, specially without knowing the person. Learn to extend some grace, and most important kindness. 

We own one of the most wonderful breeds not only in the US, but also in many other countries, haven't you guys learn from them? I sure have. Goldens are loving, caring, compassionate, loyal, happy, and I can go on and on. But I'm sur if you all know that if you happen to own one. Goldens don't speak, but they ALL greet and meet people wagging their tail and being friendly. Let's learn from them. No golden is better than other, we all love them because they're incredible creatures. I love mine with all my heart simply because they are unconditional with me, and will never judge me, or make me feel bad or sad. We can all learn from them. I sure hope you all have a blessed day, and enjoy your beautiful goldens.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

iwuollet said:


> in the medical field they're obligated to state all the options


I don't know that anyone here is being harsh, appalled maybe.
Euthanasia is an option for you with any of your dogs, despite good health. I bet you don't like hearing it though.


----------



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Not sure anyone was being judgemental as much as they were saying this was not a condition serious enough to even consider putting down a puppy. If it's not something the people want to deal with... (if this person actually has a problem to deal with) return the dog to the breeder. It was stated many times that a decision like this was up to the owner not the vet. After decades of working in this field I can't imagine any vet that would consider this.


----------



## jeffscott947 (Jun 9, 2019)

iwuollet said:


> I have never meet such harsh and judgmental people, up until I became a member in this group. When someone comes to this group and shares something, such as an opinion, question, or something they were told, is not to be attacked with comments that make you feel like you're a complete criminal, or make you feel awful for simply replying to the thread. We are all adults, some with more knowledge than others. Talking bad about a veterinarian that you guys don't even know is quiet sad, even my 12 year old son know better than that. I respect you all and I'm glad you guys are so perfect, but there is one thing that I know and that is the fact that we all need to respect peoples opinions. I don't have anything bad to say about this veterinarian, I think that anybody that work in the medical field they're obligated to state all the options, and the facts depending on the circumstances. I wasn't told to euthanized my dog in particular, I was told about what happens in cases when this particular diagnosis leads to that point, but if some people decides that, I certainly respect that and as a civilized human, I will just leave it alone. If we are ever in a situation where we have to be judge, I doubt we want to be treated or have someone say the things that some of you have said, specially without knowing the person. Learn to extend some grace, and most important kindness.
> 
> We own one of the most wonderful breeds not only in the US, but also in many other countries, haven't you guys learn from them? I sure have. Goldens are loving, caring, compassionate, loyal, happy, and I can go on and on. But I'm sur if you all know that if you happen to own one. Goldens don't speak, but they ALL greet and meet people wagging their tail and being friendly. Let's learn from them. No golden is better than other, we all love them because they're incredible creatures. I love mine with all my heart simply because they are unconditional with me, and will never judge me, or make me feel bad or sad. We can all learn from them. I sure hope you all have a blessed day, and enjoy your beautiful goldens.


100% agree ^^^^...and I belong to many forums....dogs and otherwise!


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I would have to say the same about people thinking they are being rude when appalled that putting down a golden for a skin issue as my opinion is that you don't put animals down for a skin condition. MY opinion is I would never deal with a vet that would recommend or OK to put a dog down over what is essentially excessive dandruff. It's also my opinion that someone who owns a dog with ICT and decides to put it down because it's a slight bother is way out of line... in my opinion. Those people should surrender the dog to a rescue and let them find someone who will take care of it properly.


----------



## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

SRW said:


> I don't know that anyone here is being harsh, appalled maybe.
> Euthanasia is an option for you with any of your dogs, despite good health. I bet you don't like hearing it though.


None of the Vets in my area will euthanize a healthy dog.........

I've lived in many States due to job transfers, I have yet to meet a Vet that would euthanize a healthy dog. 

I got a dog the owners brought into my Vet Clinic to be euthanized because they didn't like her. My Vet instead chose to find her a home, I was lucky enough to get her, she was with me for over 10 years, she was several years old when I got her.


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

The problem that I personally had with the comment about euthanasia was that a new puppy owner came on asking a question about a specific problem that does affect Goldens. It is TYPICALLY a nuisance in Goldens. I’ve seen the horrible pictures but never of a Golden. The puppy this thread was started for has no symptoms and may not even be affected. Why jump off the deep end of sorrow with a response?

People find there way to this forum when they want experienced opinions, or just thoughts from others that share the love of Goldens. They need to be told the truth, but not scared unnecessarily. If you are just looking for broad statistics you use google. If you want life experience this forum is a great tool.

My vet would never consider it an option. He would re-home the dog. I’ve gotten the call to help care for them before. (Not ICT, but bad owners that didn’t want to tend to them)


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> None of the Vets in my area will euthanize a healthy dog.........


Nor would any I know but that was not the point.


----------



## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

SRW said:


> Nor would any I know but that was not the point.


What was the point? 

I was replying to what you said here-



> I don't know that anyone here is being harsh, appalled maybe.
> _*Euthanasia is an option for you with any of your dogs, despite good health*_. I bet you don't like hearing it though.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> What was the point?


Responding to this. 
Not gently enough I guess.



iwuollet said:


> Talking bad about a veterinarian that you guys don't even know is quiet sad, even my 12 year old son know better than that. I respect you all and I'm glad you guys are so perfect, but there is one thing that I know and that is the fact that we all need to respect peoples opinions. I don't have anything bad to say about this veterinarian, I think that anybody that work in the medical field they're obligated to state all the options, and the facts depending on the circumstances.


----------



## iwuollet (Feb 7, 2019)

ChicagoMom2 said:


> New puppy... hi all. We picked up a new puppy today... all very sudden and last minute from a breeder and discovered both parents are carriers of ichthyosis. The pup is 9 weeks. The breeder did not mention this to me- told me that they had all clearances and i believed her. (Bad move now I know). At pickup i asked for the clearance info and saw this. The pup looks perfect - I checked him thoroughly... but what do I do now? I’m super upset she misled me and now want to have him tested. She said we’d be able to see it at 9 weeks and his skin is perfect. Anyone here with a pup with this that can provide insight? My kids met him and are sooo excited (we brought him
> Home). I just don’t know what to do!





ChicagoMom2 said:


> New puppy... hi all. We picked up a new puppy today... all very sudden and last minute from a breeder and discovered both parents are carriers of ichthyosis. The pup is 9 weeks. The breeder did not mention this to me- told me that they had all clearances and i believed her. (Bad move now I know). At pickup i asked for the clearance info and saw this. The pup looks perfect - I checked him thoroughly... but what do I do now? I’m super upset she misled me and now want to have him tested. She said we’d be able to see it at 9 weeks and his skin is perfect. Anyone here with a pup with this that can provide insight? My kids met him and are sooo excited (we brought him
> Home). I just don’t know what to do!


Hello: 

my apologies if my reply lead you to believe that I was implying or even suggesting you to euthanize your puppy, only because you suspect that given the fact that both parents are ichthyosis carries, your pup may end up having it too. Please, and again I’m sorry. I reply to the thread given some information more so to give some information and insight to the ones in favor of breeding dogs that are carriers of this disease. People like us, the ones that want a puppy and the puppies, want a healthy puppy. And believe me, they’re charging us for that. If that’s the case they need to be responsible and breed healthy dogs, healthy in every way possible, and also be honest with the people that are putting all their trust in them. I had a golden who died from old at 12 years, who sadly had it. His life was fine, I did everything in my power to give him the life that he deserved. That included taking him to a dermatologist who walked me through this skin condition, testing, treatment and gave me a general information about this condition and what happens when in some cases is severe. I respect the veterinarian and also thank him for helping me find a way to treat this condition on my dog. No he didn’t suggest euthanized my dog, neither I did it.
I sure hope you can get your puppy tested, is a simple DNA test and it can be order by your vet. And I really hope you can get to an agreement with the breeder.
Again, my apologies if my reply causes any confusion.


----------



## iwuollet (Feb 7, 2019)

This was told also by the vet:
It is possible to manage the condition in affected dogs, but it requires great diligence on the part of owners. Your veterinarian will work with you to find what is most helpful for your dog. Treatment will include frequent mild anti-seborrheic shampoos and moisturizing rinses. *Due to the chronic, severe, incurable nature of the skin changes and the intense treatment required, many owners choose to have dogs with ichthyosis euthanized*. I had a dog that had this condition and thankfully it was mild and with a lot of consistency and using the right stuff, it never got out of hand. He lived a normal life, but in my opinion, a dog should never go tough that, if a breeder knows both dogs, even one is a carrier, don't breed. People like us trying to get a dog, putting all our faith in "a good breeder" are the only ones paying the price. Is hard, is time consuming, is expensive, and we already paid a significant amount of money for the puppy.


I don’t know how a comment can get so twisted. My post stated something very different to what everybody is implying but if being right is what makes you all feel good, if breeding dogs that carry this condition is also ok for you guys. I said my peace.

On this forum you are safe only when you nod and agree with a bunch of people with a sharp tongue, that loves to humiliate and demean for not following your code of ethics. Sadly you don’t realized that you’re all are self appointed experts with an over inflated ego.


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

iwuollet said:


> This was told also by the vet:
> It is possible to manage the condition in affected dogs, but it requires great diligence on the part of owners. Your veterinarian will work with you to find what is most helpful for your dog. Treatment will include frequent mild anti-seborrheic shampoos and moisturizing rinses. *Due to the chronic, severe, incurable nature of the skin changes and the intense treatment required, many owners choose to have dogs with ichthyosis euthanized*. I had a dog that had this condition and thankfully it was mild and with a lot of consistency and using the right stuff, it never got out of hand. He lived a normal life, but in my opinion, a dog should never go tough that, if a breeder knows both dogs, even one is a carrier, don't breed. People like us trying to get a dog, putting all our faith in "a good breeder" are the only ones paying the price. Is hard, is time consuming, is expensive, and we already paid a significant amount of money for the puppy.
> 
> 
> ...


I don’t think that anyone on this forum thinks they are experts. There are a few people I think really may qualify, I’m not one of those. No one is questioning the data you are posting, but are questioning its validity in this current situation, or in our own cases. I just feel like there are so many horrible things that can be wrong this just isn’t one of them. Should breeders breed 2 carriers? Absolutely not!
I’m going to use my own situation for an example of why I don’t think worst case advice is always helpful. I had a 7 month old puppy in field training. He started to limp. After weeks of xrays and crate rest with no improvement and seeing our local ortho specialist with no diagnosis I took him to Univ. of Penn. Great reputation, good doctors, etc. I spent over $4000 in tests for them to tell me he needed surgery on both front feet and maybe both ellbows for a rare genetic malformation of his sesamoid bones and ED. Total for exploratory surgery and hopeful repair of feet plus elbows $17,000 including follow up. I was distraught. He came from a breeder that did core clearances and a long line of great dogs. The people here were helpful to say the least. I ended up getting multiple opinions and taking him to VOSM. It cost me hundreds (not thousands) of dollars. No surgical option just a strict rehab program. I had vets willing to put him to sleep, it was that bad. VOSM gave me hope but I was skeptical.

He should pass his first hunt test this year. He earned his Dock Sr title and CGC last summer. He is fine.

Why am I taking time to type all this? God forbid someone on here have the same diagnosis I want to be able to give them hope. I want to tell them about VOSM, not all the bad info I got prior to it. I don’t want them to think it’s a life sentence for a 7 month old puppy.

All vets are not created equal. I’m not questioning your vet or your experience. Im simply here to share my experiences. Hopefully some of the things I’ve learned in 30 years of owning these guys will help someone. I never want to make someone feel the way I did when I left Penn. I called my breeder that night and he told me to put my puppy down, per my contract I would get a replacement. The people here, and others I know in the Golden community, helped me! I want to pay that hope and knowledge forward.


----------



## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

A reminder all, please be respectful to one another and keep the Forum rules in mind when posting............


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Veterinarians are _supposed_ to lay out all the options. I did not read into the post that the vet suggested euthanasia and in all cases, no matter how bad, it is the owner's choice not the vet's. Owners can request humane euthanasia, and vets can offer relinquishment as an option but people sometimes say no. PTS an otherwise healthy animal is a huge burden on the vet. HUGE. I cannot tell you how many tears I have shed over it personally, when my precious daughter is put in that position and unloads the hurt to me. I think folks here were reacting to the suggestion that ICT is a condition worth P'ingTS but that wasn't the post. It was that PTS was an option used in the past for that one veterinarian. And I am sure the vet documents that they told the client all the options. We're all on edge- let's all be kind to each other. DblTrbl2, your story is a story of success. I am glad you posted it again.


----------



## Endeavors (Mar 27, 2020)

jeffscott947 said:


> *Have you consulted your vet yet? *
> 
> With health conditions deteriorating fast in the USA today, it is becoming harder and harder to get appointments, with many vets limiting appointments and/or the conditions for getting a pet admitted. The situation is deteriorating fast, and I would suggest getting your pup in ASAP if at all possible. TBH, I had to look that illness up and it is nothing to play with imo.
> 
> ...


Return it immediately and ask for a full refund. Keep all discussion in writing. If they refuse to stand behind this and give you $$ and take back pup, report them to the AKC immediately. I would NEVER misrepresent a pup with Ich carriers!!!! Are you sure you pup was not tested and clear or only a carrier? That specific genetic testing should have been done by this breeder on every single pup, documentation included and provided to you with a short face to face educational discussion well before the pup went home with you. Sheryl Cammarata, Golden Endeavors, Masonville CO 
Permission to show that breeder this reply is wholly granted by the author.


----------



## jeffscott947 (Jun 9, 2019)

Endeavors said:


> Return it immediately and ask for a full refund. Keep all discussion in writing. If they refuse to stand behind this and give you $$ and take back pup, report them to the AKC immediately. I would NEVER misrepresent a pup with Ich carriers!!!! Are you sure you pup was not tested and clear or only a carrier? That specific genetic testing should have been done by this breeder on every single pup, documentation included and provided to you with a short face to face educational discussion well before the pup went home with you. Sheryl Cammarata, Golden Endeavors, Masonville CO
> Permission to show that breeder this reply is wholly granted by the author.


Hello @Endeavors 
Not sure why you tagged me. The pup in question is not mine.


----------



## Edward Lee Nelson (Jan 2, 2017)

We have an affected pup. She is 6 months old. We knew going in the pup was affected because the breeder did the testing.So far very light dandruff at times and that’s it.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Edward Lee Nelson said:


> We have an affected pup. She is 6 months old. We knew going in the pup was affected because the breeder did the testing.So far very light dandruff at times and that’s it.


Let me guess. The sire and dam are talented field dogs with very good health clearances aside from being ICH carriers.
I'll take that pup any day over one from a breeding of two ichtyosis clear RINO's (Retrievers In Name Only)


----------



## Edward Lee Nelson (Jan 2, 2017)

The sire has 14.5 AA points and Dam is QAA running AA stakes. Amazing pup so far!


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Boy oh boy there are a lot of people who haven't done their homework.

Ichthy isn't new. It doesn't cause itching, scratching or a whole host of other conditions that have been mentioned along the way, unless there are other underlying conditions like improper thyroid function for instance. 

The type of ichthy Golden Retrievers exhibit, manifests itself as excessive dander. It is for the most part cosmetic in nature. Here is the "big news" for a lot of you, it has existed in this breed from its very beginning. It has always been with the breed, it isn't new, it didn't just pop up on the horizon. It also affects a substantial portion of the breed and always has.

What is new, relatively speaking, is a genetic test for it.

This allows breeders to begin screening for it and start working to control the problem. With the large number of dogs involved, it will take many many years to rid the breed of this issue. In the meantime the breed has existed for about 150 years and nobody cared one bit about a few flakes until now. 

Be informed that there is variation by breed in how ichthy affects them. In Labradors for example it is extremely bad and almost always fatal. So make certain when you're speaking to a Vet, that he is not speaking about dogs in general, but specifically about Golden Retrievers because all dogs and breeds are not the same when it comes to ichthy. 

For most Goldens ichthy is an annoyance, for other breeds it can be a much more serious problem. Do not blame ichthy for other underlying problems like improper thyroid function, or immune disorders like allergies. Ichthy didn't cause those problems but it can be blown out of proportion by them.

You have to be careful in how you use genetic testing information. It is a mistake to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You can't simply throw out all ichthy involved dogs, without doing significant damage to the breed overall. It took 150 years to get where we are and it may take that long to work that problem out of the breed if that's even possible or desirable. We may find that the genes related to ichthy may also control other " desirable traits" that we don't want to lose. 

Genetics is complicated business and we're just starting to learn about it.


----------



## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Edward Lee Nelson said:


> The sire has 14.5 AA points and Dam is QAA running AA stakes. Amazing pup so far!


Exactly! I personally know two affected dogs (one being your pup's littermate and the other a relative) and neither show severe symptoms. In fact, I didn't even know one was affected until told as he shows zero symptoms and I've groomed him. Two breeders that I respect a ton barely even consider ICH status anymore when making breeding decisions.


----------



## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

myluckypenny said:


> Exactly! I personally know two affected dogs (one being your pup's littermate and the other a relative) and neither show severe symptoms. In fact, I didn't even know one was affected until told as he shows zero symptoms and I've groomed him. Two breeders that I respect a ton barely even consider ICH status anymore when making breeding decisions.


My boy is ich affected and DOES show symptoms. I have to maintain a very strict grooming routine and he gets expensive EFA supplements to keep it at bay. When it was at its worst I would have hundreds of flakes in his brush when I would brush his belly (where it seems to be most evident). When I am on top of his grooming routine and when he is not stressed, you would never know he had it, but that one flare up was a huge pain in the neck to get back under control. I would not choose an ich affected puppy again...especially for a pet. Not every dog is asymptomatic, and though I certainly don’t think it’s the worst thing out there, it is so easily avoided when making breeding decisions I believe it is something that should be bred away from within reason.


----------



## Edward Lee Nelson (Jan 2, 2017)

Curious? Field or Show Golden?


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

I'm wondering if anyone thinks there is a difference in how in manifests in field lines vs. conformation lines? My assumption would be there is none. They are all Golden's. My field bred guy is affected and it is a mild nuisance. I stated it earlier in this post, but so you don't have to read he's had 2 flare ups in 2 years that were just dandruff for a week or two. I definitely agree stress aggravates it. He had puppy dandruff, then when sent to our field trainer had a flare up. I went out to work with him at the trainers and he had large white flakes. I started supplements then, but have since changed his food to the Sport 30/20 Salmon and no longer need the supplements. He had another flare up about a month ago that lasted less then a week. It's really not a big deal to me.

I do want to say that now that testing is available and it's easy to avoid I agree fully that it should not be bred into a litter without a really good reason and all puppy buyers are given knowledge. I feel that way with any DNA tests available. I think it's just more accepted in the field lines.


----------



## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> I'm wondering if anyone thinks there is a difference in how in manifests in field lines vs. conformation lines?


That is what some are suspecting. I understand why field breeders are making the decisions they are. Way more field dogs are ICH carriers than show dogs (from what I've seen). A good majority of talented stud dogs are carriers and if you have a carrier female that seriously limits your breeding options if you want only a clear. Keep in mind, these breeders I'm talking about do not breed pet dogs, these are high level performance dogs and the puppy owners are aware of the risk. I do agree that those mainly producing dogs that go to pet homes should try to avoid producing an affected dog.


----------



## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Edward Lee Nelson said:


> Curious? Field or Show Golden?


Conformation bred. His mother, is an english-type golden who is also affected, and she is asymptomatic. It is different for every dog.


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

For the record my breeder had no excuse. There are some great dogs behind my dog but he could have made a different choice. His pairing wasn't that special and it's been repeated after knowing of other major issues. I bought my guy because of the dogs in the line but not the two he bred. I do understand it because I spent a ton of time researching field lines after I bought my puppy because of problems. I honestly should have walked away but he was recommended by a trainer I had a ton of respect for.


----------



## Jane (Jan 2, 2013)

My very beautiful (IMO, lol) dog Crispin was diagnosed with ichthyosis as a puppy. Since he also had inflammatory bowel disease and environmental allergies, and we were working hard to get those diagnosed and under control (thanks to Cornell Veterinary Hospital, the IBD is completely so)--it barely registered with me. 

It has basically been a non-event; so mild that I actually question the diagnosis. However, it was made by a veterinary dermatologist, so it's probably true. 

He's from Kyon Kennels, a large and very respected breeder. His father just died at age 14 1/2, and his mother is still alive at age 13. Frankly, I'm more grateful for the longevity of his parents than I am concerned that obviously, at least one of his parents was a carrier--but again, Crispin shows only very mild symptoms, and his skin looks fine.

We do keep him well-brushed and groomed, and since he has environmental allergies, we use Duoxo shampoos for his frequent bathings. I bathed him myself until about a year ago (he's 7) , and I'm pretty choosy about who grooms him now (it will probably be me again, very soon, due to coronavirus restrictions!). We bathe him frequently as it helps keep his environmental allergies under control.

I'm just posting to reassure the OP that there is probably a range in severity, but the disease can actually be very mild indeed. Especially as my dog has had problems far more severe than his ichthyosis, it has likely put this in perspective for me. 

But even those more serious problems are under control--it's all about diligent care of the dog whom you come to love so very much...and who gives back to you every.single.day, just in the expression on his face when you arrive home after being gone for, oh, 30 minutes...

Again, we are lucky in that IF he has it, it mild and completely controlled by good grooming habits.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I'm sure you know that IBD has been associated w ICT. I'm glad you have both under control!


----------



## bshim (Nov 18, 2021)

ChicagoMom2 said:


> New puppy... hi all. We picked up a new puppy today... all very sudden and last minute from a breeder and discovered both parents are carriers of ichthyosis. The pup is 9 weeks. The breeder did not mention this to me- told me that they had all clearances and i believed her. (Bad move now I know). At pickup i asked for the clearance info and saw this. The pup looks perfect - I checked him thoroughly... but what do I do now? I’m super upset she misled me and now want to have him tested. She said we’d be able to see it at 9 weeks and his skin is perfect. Anyone here with a pup with this that can provide insight? My kids met him and are sooo excited (we brought him
> Home). I just don’t know what to do!


My Golden Retriever has ichthyosis confirmed with a DNA test from UC Davis. The test is $50.00. 
I didn't noticed the skin flaking soon after we got her. The vets kept saying it's "puppy dandruff". Then allergies. Her flaking got worse, and the skin seemed to be turning black in between her legs. Finally took her to a Veterinary Dermatologist this year (she turned 3 in August) and was finally diagnosed then confirmed with this DNA test. Some doctors will do a skin biopsy, but this was cheaper, easier and more definitive.

We have to bathe her a lot, brush her a lot, add moisturizers to her skin and paws...you have to watch out for skin infections. Luckily, she's really not had any. We add fish oil, evening primrose oil and vitamin e to her food. 

I am NOT sorry I got her. She is a fabulous AND happy dog. Aside from the extra work, it really hasn't affected her life. She has been a joy to us and I wouldn't give her up for anything.

Golden Retriever Ichthyosis is usually much milder than Ichthyosis in other breeds.

I hope this helps.


----------



## Solveigh_says (Nov 18, 2021)

hotel4dogs said:


> I have had an ICT affected dog in the past, and sadly, he had gastrointestinal issues probably related to it. Also, it tends to get much worse when they become seniors.


So true. My girl is almost 11 and her flakes are more and more. Brushing gently with a slightly wet coat helps so it doesn't pull patches off. Fish oil and salmon food helps.


----------

