# Biddable field goldens



## hotel4dogs

I have met dogs who simply are not biddable. Some of them have been what people call "field goldens" but what they really mean is a dog that LOOKS like a field golden, which is probably why some get the reputation for not being biddable. To me there is a huge difference between a "field golden", from titled, known field lines, and one who just doesn't look like a "show golden".


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## MillionsofPeaches

Peaches is just not biddable. She is stubborn. Now that doesn't mean that I don't constantly try to find ways to train her but overall she has a mind of her own and refuses to be led.


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## gdgli

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Peaches is just not biddable. She is stubborn. Now that doesn't mean that I don't constantly try to find ways to train her but overall she has a mind of her own and refuses to be led.


Pick one behavior. What have you tried? How much time did you invest in specific training techniques? What kind of change did you get if any?


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## nolefan

I have been thinking a lot lately about the quality of "biddable" in relation to Golden Retrievers of all breedings. To me, it's one of the most important qualities for an all around Golden. I think people in all corners forget sometimes how all the qualities of a good dog need to be balanced out, don't you? 

You can have a very smart dog who is not biddable, doesn't seem to care about pleasing anyone but himself. You can have a dog with a crazy drive to retrieve who may not be the smartest dog you've ever met and who also has the attention span of a gnat. Neither case sounds like a dream dog to me. 

I think it is ridiculous to categorize field dogs as 'unbiddable' because I seem to run into just as many 'conformation' bred dogs who are plenty smart but seem to have no ability to focus even if they are getting good daily exercise. Breeders who aren't striving for balance in their breeding choices end up producing dogs who will drive you nuts. 

Conformation breeders make a big mistake if they base most of their priority on the way the dog looks without including how easy or enjoyable it is to train the dog, not overlooking retrieving instinct and kind temperament. The same way a field breeder will end up with a useless dog for the average owner if they place so much emphasis on drive and instinct that they ignore aggression or how easy it is to train the dog for his task. 

I see no real benefit in a dog that can't be trained by an amateur. What hobby dog trainer or weekend hunter or even a pet owner needs a dog that is so difficult to deal with that they can't get anywhere with him unless they get professional help? I just think 'biddable' is very important - I'm all for training the dog you have. Certainly overcoming an obstacle with your dog is very rewarding, but a dog that is stubborn and doesn't care much about pleasing you will absolutely wear you out in the long run if every concept you train for has to be introduced six ways to Sunday just to have the dog cooperate.


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## hotel4dogs

Well said Kristy.

My smartest dog was my Toby, he was amazingly smart. But STUBBORN and not very biddable. Tito isn't nearly as smart as Toby was, but he is the most biddable dog you could imagine. His titles are the result of a dog who quickly knows what you want, and then is very eager to do it just because you asked him to. Tiny was neither smart NOR biddable, LOLOL.



nolefan said:


> I have been thinking a lot lately about the quality of "biddable" in relation to Golden Retrievers of all breedings. To me, it's one of the most important qualities for an all around Golden. I think people in all corners forget sometimes how all the qualities of a good dog need to be balanced out, don't you?
> 
> You can have a very smart dog who is not biddable, doesn't seem to care about pleasing anyone but himself. You can have a dog with a crazy drive to retrieve who may not be the smartest dog you've ever met and who also has the attention span of a gnat. Neither case sounds like a dream dog to me.
> 
> I think it is ridiculous to categorize field dogs as 'unbiddable' because I seem to run into just as many 'conformation' bred dogs who are plenty smart but seem to have no ability to focus even if they are getting good daily exercise. Breeders who aren't striving for balance in their breeding choices end up producing dogs who will drive you nuts.
> 
> Conformation breeders make a big mistake if they base most of their priority on the way the dog looks without including how easy or enjoyable it is to train the dog, not overlooking retrieving instinct and kind temperament. The same way a field breeder will end up with a useless dog for the average owner if they place so much emphasis on drive and instinct that they ignore aggression or how easy it is to train the dog for his task.
> 
> I see no real benefit in a dog that can't be trained by an amateur. What hobby dog trainer or weekend hunter or even a pet owner needs a dog that is so difficult to deal with that they can't get anywhere with him unless they get professional help? I just think 'biddable' is very important - I'm all for training the dog you have. Certainly overcoming an obstacle with your dog is very rewarding, but a dog that is stubborn and doesn't care much about pleasing you will absolutely wear you out in the long run if every concept you train for has to be introduced six ways to Sunday just to have the dog cooperate.


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## TheZ's

gdgli said:


> BIDDABLE------Easily led, taught or controlled
> 
> Not biddable=stubborn
> 
> To think that field goldens are not biddable is a mistake in my opinion. When someone says that a dog is not biddable means IMO that the owner has not discovered what works for that dog. I recently gave a talk at my club's meeting on training the high flying dog. I even had Buffy with me to demonstrate a different approach to teaching some behaviors. (*Thankfully she did not make a liar out of me.)
> 
> Some of my points:
> 
> 1. Exercise that field dog. That means get out there and run that dog.
> 2. Field dogs are smart. Stupid dogs don't become successful hunters or FC-AFCs.
> 3. Channel that high energy into work and learning.
> 4. Be consistent in your handling. These dogs pick up on every slip or hesitation in your handling and will take advantage.
> 5. I believe in Teach-Force-Reinforce. However this doesn't mean that every dog must be taught the same way. I like to keep an open mind. If I didn't, I would have been a failure with my dogs.
> 6. Observe and learn everything about your dog. I believe that this is key to success.
> 
> PS I have made mistakes along the way but never did I say that a field dog of mine was not biddable.


Good points on training even for those of us who don't do hunt and field except not really sure about the "force" in teach-force-reinforce. I think unfortunately bidability seems to get overlooked in much of the discussion about what to look for when choosing a Golden.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Yes, I agree. Peaches is not a bad dog at all. She is the easiest pet dog, meaning she knows her limits, never has had one accident in the house, respects all of our belongings, ect. But when it comes to training she doesn't want to do it if she feels like we are making her do it. And we've made like games and all that. The sad thing is she is so much smarter, faster, has way better attributes as far as athleticism, prey drive, ect. than katniss but working with her is exhausting. She will learn something nearly the first time you teach her but then she thinks she knows it and doesn't have to practice it or anything. Which is simply not the case, little missy. you don't know everything! 
As far as training, seeing as the pro trainer gave up on her last summer because she was so frustrating to him, we (my daughter and I) have been just trying all the ways our little novice minds could think of to get her to do anything. She did go 4 for 4 on her started test but each time it was an butt pucker run. She made sure she picked up the duck on HER terms. The judges always told my daughter that she had amazing patience and never jumped the gun with Peaches. Its because she knows if she were to jump the gun with Peaches, then forget it. Peaches will tell her to go where the sun don't shine. 
We were at a lady's handler's seminar and one of the trainers told us that she noticed that every time we TOLD Peaches to do something she refused but if we said "fetch it up" in a high pitched super happy voice then Peaches would pick it up. That is just Peaches. Oh and please don't go on about force fetch. That was a nightmare. Our trainer said there were few dogs worse than her in all of his 15 years. I mean, there is a point that you can't "force" any longer and I'm not that kind of trainer. 

My daughter will finish up her JH this fall but honestly it is just too draining to go any further. I think we are going to try tracking. She has the genes for it and her nose is one of her biggest problems in the field or the ring so maybe this will be her thing. As well, she loves to lead in every single thing she does. I think this might be right up her alley. She also really cannot stand obedience, though she does have it and isn't a wild thing. So tracking might just work. 
I guess, sometimes, it just isn't worth forcing a dog to do something that makes both you and the dog unhappy. So we will just move to a different venue.


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## Alaska7133

Peaches and my Lucy are a lot alike. Not biddable, super birdy, smart. But do everything on their terms. Reilly has been my super dog. He is just the most biddable dog in the world. Show him something once, he remembers and off you go. Consequently I think what happens with biddable dogs, we don't train them much because little training is required. Lucy takes all of my training time. Reilly takes none. I run Reilly when I want something easy. Non-biddable dogs like Lucy and Peaches can be so draining. They do not let you miss a beat. Until late last year I finally got around to taking obedience classes with Reilly. It was a joke, he was so steady and easy. Then I went home and worked with Lucy. Like Peaches her forced fetch training was the hardest. She was one step forward, two steps back almost every session.


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## Eowyn

Alaska7133 said:


> Peaches and my Lucy are a lot alike. Not biddable, super birdy, smart. But do everything on their terms. Reilly has been my super dog. He is just the most biddable dog in the world. Show him something once, he remembers and off you go. Consequently I think what happens with biddable dogs, we don't train them much because little training is required. Lucy takes all of my training time. Reilly takes none. I run Reilly when I want something easy. Non-biddable dogs like Lucy and Peaches can be so draining. They do not let you miss a beat. Until late last year I finally got around to taking obedience classes with Reilly. It was a joke, he was so steady and easy. Then I went home and worked with Lucy. Like Peaches her forced fetch training was the hardest. She was one step forward, two steps back almost every session.


Isn't that the difference between a well bred golden and a not-so well bred golden??? I mean I realize there are exceptions, but if you are getting goldens from good breeders that shouldn't happen (non biddability), right? I swore never again to by from a byb because of the outstanding temperaments and biddability of the well bred goldens. So where did that come from???


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## hollyk

Biddable is high on my list for the next puppy. Winter always tries for me, combine that with marking skills, high pray drive and good in the water and I have a dog that makes me look good.


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## kellyguy

"Isn't that the difference between a well bred golden and a not-so well bred golden???"

I'm asking this because I don't know, but won't you get that difference between puppies in the same liter regardless of the same parents?


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## Eowyn

kellyguy said:


> "Isn't that the difference between a well bred golden and a not-so well bred golden???"
> 
> I'm asking this because I don't know, but won't you get that difference between puppies in the same liter regardless of the same parents?


A little, but not to that extent (or at least that is what is the case in my experience and what I have been told by quite reputable breeders). I am really curious what Stacey and Shelby say on this.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Considering we just came from Peaches' and Katniss' brother's Goodwill Service Dog graduation Friday with my breeder, I don't think that is the case. I just think that Peaches' has a mind of her own, she is like a person. She is alphaisque, if that is a word. Katniss comes from the same breeder and is the most biddable dog, she makes it easy for me to learn, they are my first dogs. And I'm sure that if an experienced trainer (not a field pro that has no patience or time for dogs that aren't on his timeline, not to mention he has disdain for "show" goldens) would be able to get Peaches to do what he wants. But as far as a well bred dog from a reputable breeder, she is that, I assure you. Not to mention all of her siblings and cousins are very biddable. Peaches is just....unique. I can't explain it and I've not met a dog like her yet. But I do appreciate her funny personality, she is fun and daring and crazy. Just not the most biddable. 
And I can't speak for Stacey but from what I've read her Lucy is from a very reputable breeder as well.


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## Eowyn

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Considering we just came from Peaches' and Katniss' brother's Goodwill Service Dog graduation Friday with my breeder, I don't think that is the case. I just think that Peaches' has a mind of her own, she is like a person. She is alphaisque, if that is a word. Katniss comes from the same breeder and is the most biddable dog, she makes it easy for me to learn, they are my first dogs. And I'm sure that if an experienced trainer (not a field pro that has no patience or time for dogs that aren't on his timeline, not to mention he has disdain for "show" goldens) would be able to get Peaches to do what he wants. But as far as a well bred dog from a reputable breeder, she is that, I assure you. Not to mention all of her siblings and cousins are very biddable. Peaches is just....unique. I can't explain it and I've not met a dog like her yet. But I do appreciate her funny personality, she is fun and daring and crazy. Just not the most biddable.
> And I can't speak for Stacey but from what I've read her Lucy is from a very reputable breeder as well.


Just wondered. I have just had it pounded in my head that that is one of the biggest differences between good and bad breeders. I love my rescues (and byb bred dogs before I knew better) but the difference in them and my well bred dogs (or other peoples) is huge. It frustrates me when people talk about their well bred goldens who aren't super biddable because I don't think that fits with the standard and I wonder happened.


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## Alaska7133

I think you will find variation in a litter sometimes to a great degree. Lucy and Peaches are show breeding, Reilly is BYB by a formerly good breeder. I think it's all about picking the right puppy. Breeding has a lot to do with it too. Lucy has excellent breeding. Lucy: Pedigree: Wiseman Wildfire Grayling Fish On CGC
Reilly: Pedigree: Grayling Reilly CGC

Does anyone think you can see it in a puppy before you make a selection on a litter?


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## MillionsofPeaches

oh I will say that Peaches got her CGC at 7 months. She isn't out of control. I don't know if I'm making it sound like she is. And she is young, she will be two at the end of October. She is getting easier to train with as she matures, so perhaps she is a late bloomer. 
When the puppies were selected my breeder put Peaches with us and told us she was going to have a mind of her own but she felt like I could handle it, as I'm a very dominant personality. She is right, I love Peaches and keep her grounded, but training with her is extra hard!


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## Eowyn

Alaska7133 said:


> Does anyone think you can see it in a puppy before you make a selection on a litter?


I am pretty dang sure it shows before the puppy turns 8 weeks, or at least it has in the 8 litters I have had. There was a huge variation in 7 of the litters, 1 litter was fairly uniform in biddability. That was the only litter with even half way decent breeding though (my family did rescue litters).


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## MillionsofPeaches

Perhaps in your mind biddable in the field means something different than what I think it is.


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## hollyk

Yes, I think it varies in a litter. A breeder who can not only put together great breeding but who can also place the right puppy with the right owner is priceless.


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## Eowyn

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Perhaps in your mind biddable in the field means something different than what I think it is.


Ugh. I had a big huge reply typed out and it got deleted when I tried to post it. I'm too tired to try and rewrite it, maybe if I have time I will do so tomorrow. We likely have different definitions of the word though.


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## Alaska7133

I asked Lucy's breeder for the wildest highest energy puppy in the litter. I wanted fearless! I got it!


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## hollyk

Alaska7133 said:


> I asked Lucy's breeder for the wildest highest energy puppy in the litter. I wanted fearless! I got it!


LOL.
Two years ago I would have asked for the boldest, bird crazy pup.
Now I'm thinking bird crazy and confident but something else in the mix to give that team player. I will be leaning on the experience of the breeder to match me with that pup.


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## hotel4dogs

focus....focus.....focus.....not mentioned nearly as often as it should be when evaluating potential performance puppies IMO.


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## Alaska7133

Back to George's thoughts. When it comes to changing up your training to work with less than biddable dogs, what do you suggest? With Lucy right now I'm practicing NILF - nothing in life is free. She has to sit and wait at the door every time I open it before I let her in or out. I make sure to get eye contact. I also have to be very careful to not overuse the e-collar with her. She still refuses to recall in the field when she is looking for a bird. Collar or not. She is very hard headed.


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## Megora

I was talking to the lady I take private obedience lessons from (she is a very top obedience lady in our area and also is a breeder)... about retrieves. And she basically said that most golden retrievers from good breeders have to be taught to retrieve. That there isn't a strong retrieve drive there, and it generally hasn't been as big a deal as making sure that the play drive is there. 

What she said is you can train a dog to retrieve, but you can't fix a dog who keeps blowing you off or trying to attack other dogs. 

Nudging the conformation side - Bertie's breeder has owned and competed with a Topbrass golden years ago. The thing that she and her husband did not like about that dog was a very hard head. She had gotten OTCH's with dogs and I believe with that dog, but it took both of them working together to train that dog. 

I think if you talk to a lot of people about field lines and what they "think" of as far as field, it may come down to dogs who have a more lab like temperament.


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## TrailDogs

Megora said:


> I was talking to the lady I take private obedience lessons from (she is a very top obedience lady in our area and also is a breeder)... about retrieves. And she basically said that most golden retrievers from good breeders have to be taught to retrieve. *That there isn't a strong retrieve drive there*, and it generally hasn't been as big a deal as making sure that the play drive is there.
> 
> I think if you talk to a lot of people about field lines and what they "think" of as far as field, it may come down to dogs who have a more lab like temperament.


This makes no sense, it is a big deal. Play drive isn't going to get your dog out to the the winged pheasant that sails 200 yards or more through the woods and lands out of sight. It isn't going to get your dog through icy water to retrieve ducks. 
Of course a well bred golden, that is bred with the original intent of the breed in mind, will have a strong retrieving drive. If it doesn't, I would not consider it a well bred golden.
My first field dogs were labradors and I can tell you that my field goldens are not lab like. They are 100% golden in temperament.
And they are very biddable with focus and high drive.
Dogs don't attain high level field titles without trainability, focus and drive. Nor are they successful as hunting partners without these qualities.


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## Megora

TrailDogs said:


> This makes no sense...


For a field person not reading the rest of what I said - probably not. 

I was pointing out the thinking that _other_ performance (obedience) competitors and breeders have when it comes to what they select for themselves. And she was discussing puppies from breeders who have made a name for themselves in producing obedience dogs. And she was talking about some dogs who as puppies don't want anything in their mouths. 

I was telling her about when I selected my puppy - how I was concerned that he had no retrieve drive that I could see. He does NOW. So I did completely agree with this lady that yeah.... it actually is something you can train if it isn't there already. I'd honestly prefer to have it to start with, but it can be developed through training. 

This dog now loves retrieving everything thrown for him so much that we are now working on control. As cute as it is seeing my dog leaping way in the air out of joy before picking something up, it's not ideal if you don't want to lose points.


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## gdgli

TheZ's said:


> Good points on training even for those of us who don't do hunt and field except not really sure about the "force" in teach-force-reinforce. I think unfortunately bidability seems to get overlooked in much of the discussion about what to look for when choosing a Golden.


A friend of mine who has 50 years in the game has a slightly different definition of force. He says that force is making the dog do something when he doesn't want to do it. If you have made your dog do anything when he did not comply with your command then you used force according to this definition.


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## gdgli

One person in my obedience class brags about how biddable her dogs are. I must ask this: Why is it that she must always have a piece of food in her hands? Why must she scent her hands with food before entering the obedience ring (a no-no)? And why does every one of her dogs break a sit stay and down stay (when she is not standing next to them) during group exercises?


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## gdgli

Why should dogs be different than your own children? If I were told that my son was not easily taught I would:
1. Ask for a different teacher
2. Put him in another school
3. Find a program that suits him


The above suggests that if what you are doing is not working then find something that does work. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

OK, I don't own the unbiddable dog that some posters own. However I would love the challenge. 

I would never admit that I could not find a way to teach my dog.


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## Megora

gdgli said:


> One person in my obedience class brags about how biddable her dogs are. I must ask this: Why is it that she must always have a piece of food in her hands? Why must she scent her hands with food before entering the obedience ring (a no-no)? And why does every one of her dogs break a sit stay and down stay (when she is not standing next to them) during group exercises?


George, absolutely unfair to include sits/downs in there. I have seen very stubborn dogs holding stays and very GOOD dogs (not meaning my own, though he does count as well) breaking stays.


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## gdgli

OK, you are right. But consider the use of food in my example. You know that scented hands at an obedience trial is a no-no. Scented leash too. Is that dog biddable or bribable? Honest answer here.


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## gdgli

Alaska7133 said:


> Back to George's thoughts. When it comes to changing up your training to work with less than biddable dogs, what do you suggest? With Lucy right now I'm practicing NILF - nothing in life is free. She has to sit and wait at the door every time I open it before I let her in or out. I make sure to get eye contact. I also have to be very careful to not overuse the e-collar with her. She still refuses to recall in the field when she is looking for a bird. Collar or not. She is very hard headed.


I do believe in NILF. For example I would like to say that I never give a treat without the dog doing something for me.


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## Loisiana

gdgli said:


> You know that scented hands at an obedience trial is a no-no.


Actually it's not


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## Megora

I don't know anyone who scents the leash, but I know of people who put stuff on their hands before going out there for utility. As far as I know there's no rule that addresses this or says you have to wash your hands before going out there.


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## gdgli

Alaska7133 said:


> Back to George's thoughts. When it comes to changing up your training to work with less than biddable dogs, what do you suggest? With Lucy right now I'm practicing NILF - nothing in life is free. She has to sit and wait at the door every time I open it before I let her in or out. I make sure to get eye contact. I also have to be very careful to not overuse the e-collar with her. She still refuses to recall in the field when she is looking for a bird. Collar or not. She is very hard headed.



Recall in the field while looking for a bird, now that's pretty tough for a dog that is birdy. And I don't want to say that I have the best answer. However I feel that I wouldn't want to call a dog off a bird assuming that the dog's body language tells me that there is a bird there, she just didn't find it yet. For a dog that is just hunting around for a bird but shows no signs of scenting it, well that is another story. I think that most would say that you need to work on recall if the dog is not coming in for you. And if you are using the ecollar and it is not giving you the desired effect it may be because you have been nagging the dog rather than give the dog a meaningful correction. And nagging leads to the dog ignoring you and the stimulation you give.


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## gdgli

I saw someone get disqualified at our Specialty just on the accusation of a scented leash.


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## TheZ's

Loisiana said:


> Actually it's not


Really?? I thought any hint of food or toy on the handler was a dis-qualifier. How often do handlers do that??


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## Loisiana

TheZ's said:


> Really?? I thought any hint of food or toy on the handler was a dis-qualifier. How often do handlers do that??


Well if you've got actual food on your hands, that's not allowed, but AKC doesn't care what your hands smell like, because your hands are going to carry scents of anything you touch. If you've given your dog a treat before going in the ring, the dog can smell that. Nobody cares that your hands smell like everything you touch that day, and you aren't required to wash your hands before going in the ring. You can't put a layer of squirt cheese on your hand and walk in the ring, but if you hold a handful of hotdogs before going in and that's what your hands smell like, not a problem with AKC, because that's not an area they want to police. And really, scenting your hands to try to trick your dog into thinking you have food on you might work a time or two, but it's not going to hold up to long term showing, so I wouldn't care if I saw another competitor doing it. 

As for the leash, if I rubbed liver on it and had liver chunks hanging off my leash, that would be a problem. Otherwise, it should be no concern of anyone's what my leash smelled like. And if any judge DQ'd me because of the way my leash might smell, that would most definitely be a battle I would fight. Not that I've ever done anything to make my leash smell different, it's never even crossed my mind before this thread.


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## Megora

If you scented your leash - wouldn't that lead to the dog grabbing the leash?


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## gdgli

That is not really relevant. Food in the ring is a training aid. Judges perception is important. Besides, scent the part that is in your hand and heel a dog that has been trained not to jump. 

Also I don't know how you train but initial luring for attentions can be done with food in your hand. That is how my teacher teaches it but it should be faded. You get heads up heeling that way.


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## gdgli

I must add that I had chewing gum while in the ring. When I was done I was told that I could be disqualified if the judge saw it, could be perceived as food in the mouth, another training aid.


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## Loisiana

Gum would get you excused or given a nonqualifying score, not disqualified. Big difference! But yes, having gum in your mouth is considered bringing food in the ring.

However, the scent of gum in your mouth after you spit it out wouldn't be a problem! Many people eat peppermints right before going in, the smell is supposed to mask the scent of nerves.


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## gdgli

Just a comment on biddable dogs. I think that when many say that a field dog is not biddable they really mean that they do not know how to handle the energy of that dog. Handling the energy was the point of my presentation at my club's meeting. 

I have made a career out of researching this topic. One common theme is to learn how to use your dog's energy and desires to your advantage in training.

A good example. My dog has high prey drive. While heeling on the street she will lunge and pull on the leash to try to chase a squirrel. How do I channel that into better behavior? I will let her chase the squirrel but on my terms. If she will heel with me the 15 yards or so up to the tree that the squirrel is now in, I will let her run around the tree looking for the squirrel.

I explored this technique when I felt that my popping the leash was making her wilder and I would be hurting her with what I would consider a meaningful correction.


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## gdgli

NQ vs. DQ vs. Exc. Sorry but I have a poor vocabulary.

But I do agree that gum in your mouth is food in the ring. I wasn't careful due to my own nervousness. That is why I had the gum in the first place.


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## hotel4dogs

What breed is she breeding? I totally dispute her comment bolded below, and I know an awful lot of Golden breeders who would question her sanity. Retrieve desire is part of the temperament test done on most of the litters that we've been a part of, and the puppies score very, very high. I would fully expect a well bred Golden to be happily retrieving stuff by 8 weeks old. 



Megora said:


> I was talking to the lady I take private obedience lessons from (she is a very top obedience lady in our area and also is a breeder)... about retrieves. And she basically said that *most golden retrievers from good breeders have to be taught to retrieve. That there isn't a strong retrieve drive there, *and it generally hasn't been as big a deal as making sure that the play drive is there.


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## gdgli

I would like to refocus on the biddability of field goldens. My point is that I feel that there is a way to reach almost every dog. I believe that we restrict ourselves to the training methods that we use. I also believe that what is not biddable to one trainer does not necessarily mean that all trainers would feel the same way.


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## nolefan

gdgli said:


> ... There is more than one way to skin a cat.
> 
> OK, I don't own the unbiddable dog that some posters own. However I would love the challenge.
> 
> I would never admit that I could not find a way to teach my dog.


Go back and read those original posts. The way I read them was that Shelby is fairly certain that Peaches knows it. She HAS been taught and understands what is expected of her, but the dog has decided that she won't do it if on her handler's terms, won't do it in training on demand. I'd be willing to bet that Peaches isn't easily "shamed" and when she's in a mood, corrections that would affect the average dog won't even phase her. 

Shelby has a strong personality, but this is her first dog. She is still learning. Peaches is very strong willed and has a mind of her own, sometimes she's just not going to do it. Maybe if Peaches lived with you, based on your years of experience, you could have nipped some of her personality traits in the bud when she was 9 weeks old. But if she's giving the Pro trainer fits, it sounds like she's really a full time job in the management dept. 

SHelby, I'd love to hear you expound on this…..


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## gdgli

nolefan said:


> Go back and read those original posts. The way I read them was that Shelby is fairly certain that Peaches knows it. She HAS been taught and understands what is expected of her, but the dog has decided that she won't do it if on her handler's terms, won't do it in training on demand. I'd be willing to bet that Peaches isn't easily "shamed" and when she's in a mood, corrections that would affect the average dog won't even phase her.
> 
> Shelby has a strong personality, but this is her first dog. She is still learning. Peaches is very strong willed and has a mind of her own, sometimes she's just not going to do it. Maybe if Peaches lived with you, based on your years of experience, you could have nipped some of her personality traits in the bud when she was 9 weeks old. But if she's giving the Pro trainer fits, it sounds like she's really a full time job in the management dept.
> 
> SHelby, I'd love to hear you expound on this…..


I don't mean to sound like I am critical of Shelby. On the contrary I think that she is very capable. Actually I believe that she is talented. 

You have hit on something. A dog behaves in the way that we teach him to. Some of what arises often is something that we can address before it becomes an problem behavior. 

Peaches is an alpha. Alphas are difficult to deal with. Alphas are challenging.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Kristy, you hit the nail on the head, and you know my breeder's personally, you have one of her dogs in your family and know what a great breeder she is. She is ALWAYS telling me, I just have to figure out how to train her, she isn't your average dog. She has faith that I can do it. Shoot, Savannah got her to pick up dead nasty ducks and that was something my field trainer COULD NOT accomplish. Not even with force. 

Peaches is actually VERY easily shamed. That is her issue. We have found that if we make this big show of her then she prances around and shows off and does it great. But if we correct her it is like she is so embarrassed she can't stand it. Instead of trying harder she basically tells you to F off. She gets angry embarrassed. It is just her, but she is getting much better at it. And treats? Forget it!!! She looks at you like puleeze. You can't bribe me to do that! She is so freaking smart. 
Right now she is doing simple agility with my daughter in the back yard. If she sees me watching she puts on the show and does it right. Other times she farts around and decides she doesn't feel like it. I think it is just infuriating but by this point we have just learned to deal with it and it doesn't bother us nearly as much as it did. This coupled with her maturity has helped us progress her further.


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## Claudia M

hotel4dogs said:


> I have met dogs who simply are not biddable. Some of them have been what people call "field goldens" but what they really mean is a dog that LOOKS like a field golden, which is probably why some get the reputation for not being biddable. *To me there is a huge difference between a "field golden", from titled, known field lines, and one who just doesn't look like a "show golden"*.


I am quite late in this discussion and only read the first page comments. Not every person, breeder goes out there and titles the dogs. I have met many people who simply just hunt their dogs. 
While there may be a Topbrass, Comstocks or Mioak in the pedigree some have gone thru generations of hunting but no hunt titles. 
I would certainly do not dismiss these dogs as "field goldens" just because the owners did not put the money into handlers and titles. 
JMHO

I recently met this 6yr old lab who took 14 tries to get the MH. She was PERFECT at training, by far the best dog there. She has been hunting all this time and is a great hunting dog; but not many people would have gone thru the tries just for an MH title.


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## Loisiana

I think there's a difference between trainable and biddable. Most dogs, given enough effort, can be trained to do almost everything. I have a friend with a golden with an OTCH, MACH, TDX, and two passes towards MH. She says he is a pain to train because the biddability just isn't there.

I had a dog I considered unbiddable. He would listen to my commands only under two conditions: either he wanted to at that moment, or he knew he wouldn't have an option. He was wicked smart, and my most successful novice obedience dog ever, top ranked in his breed every year he competed. But I would never call him biddable.

On the other hand, my dogs that I consider biddable, you can almost see the thought bubble over their heads, "oh, mom wants me to do this, let me do it!"


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## nolefan

gdgli said:


> I don't mean to sound like I am critical of Shelby. On the contrary I think that she is very capable…..


Oh, no. I didn't think you were criticizing her. I wanted to make sure we were really all on the same page. It makes a difference if we're talking about a dog who hasn't learned the concept, doesn't understand it, vs. a dog who has performed on occasion but won't consistently cooperate under similar circumstances. I also meant no disparagement when I said that someone with years of experience and the knowledge and confidence that go with it would have started off on a different foot with Peaches when she was a puppy and might be able to get her to do some things that a more novice owner wouldn't. 

I am interested in learning from this conversation. I am still new enough to dog training that I do not look at a dog like this the way you do: as a fascinating challenge. I look at a very smart Golden Retriever who isn't biddable as a dog who is missing a piece of what makes it valuable to the average amateur dog person. Part of what I love about the Goldens I have had is their great desire to please me. I've been lucky that I've had smart dogs who wanted to please me to varying degrees. They felt like a team member who looked to me as the leader. I do not have the time, patience or expertise to pick apart a dog who doesn't want to cooperate. 

Shelby, I pay a lot of attention to your challenges with Peaches, because I am still very involved with training my parents' dog, Sailor. Sailor is smart as a whip, she gets exercise and has been in obedience training from the beginning. Also has a CGC. My parents are not first time dog owners, they are not career obedience people, but they aren't letting their puppy sleep in their bed either or eat from the table. Their previous dog was a very mischievous Lab with some similar traits so they have worked with a dog who wasn't easy before. Sailor is not interested in pleasing anyone but herself. The average stern correction doesn't seem to make an impression. I am hoping that continuing to work on self control and correction will help. She also has two siblings who are the ones who just successfully completed their first year of service dog training.

Sailor is has the sweetest temperament you can imagine and she is super confident and super smart but she is not biddable. We have a friend who is a professional trainer who has decades of dog experience and one of her dogs is the most titled performance Labrador Retriever in the country. She worked with Sailor for a while on teaching hold and force hold and finally said "well, some dogs just don't want to have something in their mouths." My translation on this is "Are you kidding me? What Retriever puts up this kind of a fight on learning hold?" 

My experience with Sailor is a driving factor in my interest in why some Goldens are so biddable (and that doesn't mean wimpy) and some would rather die than comply.


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## MillionsofPeaches

See, this is the closest thing to what I was thinking and not able to formulate. Peaches is NOT biddable but I believe she can be trained. It just takes effort. Katniss is super biddable and I can see her little lightbulb go on with oh that is what Mom wants so let me do it and it makes her quite happy that she can please me. Peaches is quite happy when she does it right but on her terms. 


Loisiana said:


> I think there's a difference between trainable and biddable. Most dogs, given enough effort, can be trained to do almost everything. I have a friend with a golden with an OTCH, MACH, TDX, and two passes towards MH. She says he is a pain to train because the biddability just isn't there.
> 
> I had a dog I considered unbiddable. He would listen to my commands only under two conditions: either he wanted to at that moment, or he knew he wouldn't have an option. He was wicked smart, and my most successful novice obedience dog ever, top ranked in his breed every year he competed. But I would never call him biddable.
> 
> On the other hand, my dogs that I consider biddable, you can almost see the thought bubble over their heads, "oh, mom wants me to do this, let me do it!"


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## nolefan

Loisiana said:


> I think there's a difference between trainable and biddable. Most dogs, given enough effort, can be trained to do almost everything. I have a friend with a golden with an OTCH, MACH, TDX, and two passes towards MH. She says he is a pain to train because the biddability just isn't there.
> 
> I had a dog I considered unbiddable. He would listen to my commands only under two conditions: either he wanted to at that moment, or he knew he wouldn't have an option. He was wicked smart, and my most successful novice obedience dog ever, top ranked in his breed every year he competed. But I would never call him biddable.
> 
> On the other hand, my dogs that I consider biddable, you can almost see the thought bubble over their heads, "oh, mom wants me to do this, let me do it!"


THank you Jodie, this is the type of observation I find instructive. I am interested in nuance. I am a novice dog trainer, yes I want a Golden Retriever who is trainable but I also want biddable. If our breed loses biddable, we are losing some of the very desirable qualities that made the dogs so special to begin with.


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## MillionsofPeaches

oh Kristy, that is so funny with Sailor. Indy and Justice are doing great in their progress! 
I think also one must remember that when I got peaches she was going to a PET home. I got bit by this dog training but after I got the dogs. 
As far as a PET goes, Peaches is the BEST dog ever!!! She is way better than my highly biddable dog, Katniss. She doesn't do ANYTHING wrong in our house. And honestly, if I had to choose between the two dogs, peaches is the easier dog to live with. She isn't up my rear 24/7 but she is always right there. Katniss, on the other hand, ignores the rest of the family because she is always on ME. She is MY dog where as Peaches is the FAMILY's dog.
I think that with Peaches, it is an excellent challenge for me to further my training abilities. Katniss is perfect because she is slow and I see results quickly (that makes for a good novice dog) Peaches, on the other hand, is a challenge and I have to really think outside of the box to get her to do anything in the field. She knows what fetch is and she will look me in the eye and say, "go for it, lady.." and I do reach down and force her. But...I must pick and choose when to do it because if I pick the wrong time, then she will shut down and not work at all. And one other thing with her. She gets really bored fast. So I must change it up all the time to keep her motivated.


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## Alaska7133

My DH thinks it's the sound of a woman's voice versus a man's voice. Dogs are more interested in paying attention to a voice that is 2 octaves lower. He also thinks woman tend to reward a dog too quickly for doing something. On the too quick to reward, a example is saying "yah Fido, good boy, good job!" When Fido is only 1/2 back from the retrieve. Whereas men are a little more reserved with praise. 

George, 
What I'm referring to on recall is at the derby we were in, Lucy looked very quickly for her second bird, couldn't immediately find it, then went back to the fall of the first bird. I knew it was all over, so I whistled her back in. No amount of whistling was going to bring her back until she was done looking. Absolutely blew me off. Perseverance is a good thing, but not listening to a whistle is horrible. So we are going back to the beginning. I'm going to be teaching recall now all over again. She responds when she's sees fit. The default isn't hers, it's mine by not reinforcing it when she was young. I didn't find that right method when she was small, so I overlooked the problem. I like you said, if a teacher said your kid doesn't learn, find another teacher.


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## nolefan

MillionsofPeaches said:


> …..And one other thing with her. She gets really bored fast. So I must change it up all the time to keep her motivated.


Oh wow, that is Sailor. I will have to share your posts with my dad.  He and Sailor do field work with us and it is so funny watching him try to stay a step ahead of her. It will make him feel better to hear he's not the only one :doh:


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## MillionsofPeaches

Kristy---tell your dad what my trainer told me about Peaches....
He said told me that there are some dogs that are super smart and that is great. They are dog smart. But there are dogs that are too smart for their own good and he thinks Peaches is one of them. Too smart, human smart, and those make a hard dog to train. 




nolefan said:


> Oh wow, that is Sailor. I will have to share your posts with my dad. He and Sailor do field work with us and it is so funny watching him try to stay a step ahead of her. It will make him feel better to hear he's not the only one :doh:


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## gdgli

Alaska7133 said:


> My DH thinks it's the sound of a woman's voice versus a man's voice. Dogs are more interested in paying attention to a voice that is 2 octaves lower. He also thinks woman tend to reward a dog too quickly for doing something. On the too quick to reward, a example is saying "yah Fido, good boy, good job!" When Fido is only 1/2 back from the retrieve. Whereas men are a little more reserved with praise.
> 
> George,
> What I'm referring to on recall is at the derby we were in, Lucy looked very quickly for her second bird, couldn't immediately find it, then went back to the fall of the first bird. I knew it was all over, so I whistled her back in. No amount of whistling was going to bring her back until she was done looking. Absolutely blew me off. Perseverance is a good thing, but not listening to a whistle is horrible. So we are going back to the beginning. I'm going to be teaching recall now all over again. She responds when she's sees fit. The default isn't hers, it's mine by not reinforcing it when she was young. I didn't find that right method when she was small, so I overlooked the problem. I like you said, if a teacher said your kid doesn't learn, find another teacher.



Someone who is trialing should address this but I will give it a try. First, you have a training issue dealing with keeping your dog in the AOF. Not too hard to find info on this. Secondly turn your series into training at that point. If you stay on the whistle and the dog does not respond but you keep blowing you are teaching the dog to ignore the whistle. I wouldn't do it. Third, your dog might have learned something i.e. leaving the AOF did not produce a bird.

If it makes you feel any better I had recently shot at a field trial for the Amateur Stake and I saw some dogs ignore the recall whistle. This is stuff that can be addressed in training but it might require the help of experienced people. 

I hope that FT and Evan comment on this.


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## gdgli

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Kristy---tell your dad what my trainer told me about Peaches....
> He said told me that there are some dogs that are super smart and that is great. They are dog smart. But there are dogs that are too smart for their own good and he thinks Peaches is one of them. Too smart, human smart, and those make a hard dog to train.


More than one pro has said that goldens are too smart for their own good. Perhaps some trainers need more experience with goldens.


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## Megora

hotel4dogs said:


> What breed is she breeding? I totally dispute her comment bolded below, and I know an awful lot of Golden breeders who would question her sanity. Retrieve desire is part of the temperament test done on most of the litters that we've been a part of, and the puppies score very, very high. I would fully expect a well bred Golden to be happily retrieving stuff by 8 weeks old.


I sent you a private message, Barb. I thought it was fascinating hearing her say that, particularly since I've watched her dogs and her co-breeders dogs and... they are fabulous.

And yes, if it weren't for the fact I really liked Bertie's breeder, I probably would have gone home to "think" about it after I saw those puppies chasing down things but not necessarily showing the focus to retrieve at 9 weeks. I saw something similar with my Danny when he was a 6 week old puppy, and same thing - that dog had to be trained to love retrieving. It wasn't something he was born with. The flipside of that of course is - I did not need to force fetch with either dog in the true sense of pinching ears or anything like that. With Bertie, he sees things flying and he's practically vibrating to retrieve them. I'm not showing him in novice obedience yet, because I can't trust him not to go leaping ring-gates to retrieve dumbells thrown in the next ring. This is something that developed over time and by the time he was 7-8 months old really started showing. It wasn't there when he was 9 weeks old.


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## EvanG

gdgli said:


> If it makes you feel any better I had recently shot at a field trial for the Amateur Stake and I saw some dogs ignore the recall whistle. This is stuff that can be addressed in training but it might require the help of experienced people.
> 
> I hope that FT and Evan comment on this.


This is a hot topic for me...one I spend some time on at each seminar. One reason so many hunt test and FT folks develop dogs that won't come when called is the pervasive treatment of crooked sits to whistle. The dog sits crooked, and the handler 'toot-toots' the whistle just enough to bring the dog toward them a couple feet so he looks straight, and then they cast the dog. This treatment is rampant across the country, and it does little to provide long term solutions for the crooked sit. But it gives the dog an expectation that he only needs to come a couple of feet when he's called. That is made worse while on retrieve because the dog has an additional expectation that there's a bird out there somewhere, and he'd rather go look for it than to be called in.

I train my dogs to obey "Here" (voice or whistle) with equal authority as if I had cast them 'Back'. I reinforce it at least weekly. Top trainers do that, but rarely talk about it. They don't all do it the same way. But no competitive pro has to beg a dog to come when called.

There are far more effective was to treat the crooked sit than to break down one of the most fundamental commands to do it. Thanks for asking.

With regard to bid-ability, I think it's as important a trait as assessing raw talent in determining the real quality of a retriever of any breed. Goldens bred for field by a competent breeder are apt to be among the most bid-able you can get. And "yes", they are smart too!

EvanG


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## gdgli

Evan, I am glad that you mentioned weekly reinforcement. I hear "Well my dog already knows that". I find that many feel that once something is taught that is the end of it. I don't agree---every athlete trains and goes back to basics in order to keep up to snuff.


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## EvanG

gdgli said:


> Evan, I am glad that you mentioned weekly reinforcement. I hear "Well my dog already knows that". I find that many feel that once something is taught that is the end of it. I don't agree---every athlete trains and goes back to basics in order to keep up to snuff.


I completely agree with you! About all our dogs do by their own nature is chase motion, honor their noses, and process food! All else that we want them to do is our idea, and they won't continue to be good at it without maintenance. 

EvanG


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## MillionsofPeaches

I never thought about that break down of the concept of recall with the toot toot. My trainer does that too. I've noticed that with Katniss a lot of times if I just stare at her and wait it out she will correct her sit. Hmm.


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## FTGoldens

gdgli, what a fantastic topic you started!

I haven't read all of the posts in the thread (I have to balance my on-line time this week between the National Am and this forum), but, in my perception, the proper level of biddibility for field trial competition requires a balance of a bunch of different factors. What I mean by this is that a competitive dog must have confidence and self-determination to have the guts to go get that fourth bird of a 25 minute water quad; and the dog has to be able to make a decision, the RIGHT decision, on its own (this is why I very rarely handle on a mark in training ... this takes the responsibility off of the dog ... but that's another thread (yes, I know that this is a fairly controversial position, but it works for me)). And, of course, on the other hand the dog must be capable of acquiescing to the handler's demands (otherwise a blind would be impossible), which also necessitates that the handler instill a high level of trust and respect. So, it's a balance.

And I agree with Evan about the "toot toot" to get a dog to get into proper alignment ... using it in that fashion is an opportunity to create confusion. Fix the sit another way.

Alaska, don't feel too bad about Lucy's desire to find that stinking bird before coming in. It is not an unusual occurrence for a handler in a field trial to have to go into the field to retrieve his or her retriever, especially in the minor (Derby or Qualifying) stakes. Frankly, I'd be a little concerned about any dog that didn't want to stay out in the field and find the bird, after all, that's what we've spent hours and hours and hours teaching them to do. To come back without a bird is a cardinal sin, so reluctance to do so, even if commanded, should be anticipated. I wouldn't dwell on it; working on it a little is fine, but don't over do it ... problems will erupt if it's overdone. I'd be a lot more concerned if the opposite had happened!

Back to the National Am blog,

FTGoldens

PS: Flash and Wyatt did very well in the first two series!


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## hotel4dogs

I did get your PM, and I want to answer publicly. I, too, will not name the breeder publicly because I don't want this to look like I'm slamming a breeder, I am not.
The breeder is very, very well known *in the obedience world.* However, to the best of my knowledge (and a quick browsing of K9data backs this up), this breeder is not at all active in the field, and doesn't claim to breed dogs for field. I don't see anything past a JH, and those were over 20 years ago, very few of them, and one SH that was over 20 years ago. That would explain why the dogs "need to be taught to retrieve". This breeder isn't focusing on the talents that are required for field performance dogs.
Now don't get me wrong, I think very very highly of this breeder and of this breeder's breeding program. If I were looking for an *obedience* dog, I would surely consider one from these lines. 
Having done a breeding with Jackie Mertens, and knowing how her dogs are evaluated, I would pretty well guarantee she would dispute that dogs need to be taught to retrieve, it's a big component of her puppy evaluations.



Megora said:


> I sent you a private message, Barb. I thought it was fascinating hearing her say that, particularly since I've watched her dogs and her co-breeders dogs and... they are fabulous.
> 
> And yes, if it weren't for the fact I really liked Bertie's breeder, I probably would have gone home to "think" about it after I saw those puppies chasing down things but not necessarily showing the focus to retrieve at 9 weeks. I saw something similar with my Danny when he was a 6 week old puppy, and same thing - that dog had to be trained to love retrieving. It wasn't something he was born with. The flipside of that of course is - I did not need to force fetch with either dog in the true sense of pinching ears or anything like that. With Bertie, he sees things flying and he's practically vibrating to retrieve them. I'm not showing him in novice obedience yet, because I can't trust him not to go leaping ring-gates to retrieve dumbells thrown in the next ring. This is something that developed over time and by the time he was 7-8 months old really started showing. It wasn't there when he was 9 weeks old.


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## hotel4dogs

sorry duplicate post...it said "database error" so I posted again, and it duplicated itself.


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## Megora

hotel4dogs said:


> The breeder is very, very well known *in the obedience world.* However, to the best of my knowledge (and a quick browsing of K9data backs this up), this breeder is not at all active in the field....


 Barb - I never claimed or said she or the other was active in field. 

See my original post, I _deliberately_ pointed out what golden retriever breeders in _other_ performance areas say w/regards to retrieve drive and trainability. As I said then and again, I thought it was interesting.


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## hotel4dogs

sorry Kate, I guess I read too fast, and just centered on this statement:

".... And she basically said that most golden retrievers from good breeders have to be taught to retrieve. That there isn't a strong retrieve drive there, and it generally hasn't been as big a deal as making sure that the play drive is there...."


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