# Spaying



## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

It should be no earlier than 3 months after the first heat, ideally let her have 2 or 3 seasons. For some that isn't a good option because of entire males, but I would always try to let a bitch have at least one season.


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## Mandy's Dad (May 27, 2008)

Having always had females, I've dealt with this a few times. I used to think to spay them before their first heat, but we waited with Katie until after and she seemed more laid back than all the others. Coincidence or due to waiting?


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Linda ( Tahnee) posted this article that is really eye opening. I'm glad we let the girls go thru one cycle and spayed not long after.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

At least right after the first heat. Every open season that a bitch go through greatly increases her chances of not only mammary cancers, but of pyometra. Allowing a bitch that is not intended to have a litter 3 or 4 seasons before spaying is far too risky.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Before her first heat. Yes, it may carry slight health improvements to let a dog go through puberty fully before spaying, but the dangers of the cancers and health complications in female dogs increase after a heat (and then more and more after subsequent heats). I can see after the first heat as a viable option, but why take the risk at all?


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## Kand3 (Nov 3, 2008)

I'm glad this was posted. Bailey just turned 6 months yesterday so I feel like I need to hurry and make a decision but am torn. It's awfully confusing to a newbie!!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> Before her first heat. Yes, it may carry slight health improvements to let a dog go through puberty fully before spaying, but the dangers of the cancers and health complications in female dogs increase after a heat (and then more and more after subsequent heats). I can see after the first heat as a viable option, but why take the risk at all?


I agree. Personally, I'd prefer to see a bitch not being bred spayed prior to having a season, but after the first one is acceptable to me.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

I've noticed that many on the forum advise waiting until a male is fully grown (as in 18-24 months) before they are neutered but the same isn't advised for females...I would want any growing dog to have their hormones intact at least whilst still developing. I believe hormones play a very important role in the physical and mental development of a male _or_ female dog and to spay before a bitch has even had a season is far too young and more to do with the vets financial gain than genuine concern for the dogs long term health when they advise spaying a puppy.

I can't help but feel that the statistics involving mammery cancer in bitches are somewhat exaggerated...apparently 1 in 4 entire bitches (over the age of 4) will develop a tumour in the mammary gland (with 50% of those being benign) I just don't see this reflected in the dogs I know around me. I really would love to know the genuine statistics of a bitch spayed after 2 or 3 seasons developing mammary cancer later in life or pyometra before they are spayed. 

If it really was that common I would imagine the show ring would be a very depressing place to be with all the bitches that would be struck down by tumours...I mean 1 in 4?? Its a wonder anyone dares leave a bitch intact with odds like that. I just don't see this in reality.


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

According to the book writen by my breeder you should wait until after the first heat for females and 1 year to 18 months for males. Darby was one year (happy birthday) and Kirby was 7 months (I didn't want to go through that).


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## Dog (Sep 26, 2006)

Amber was taken care of at 4 months as recommended by the vet.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I agree. Personally, I'd prefer to see a bitch not being bred spayed prior to having a season, but after the first one is acceptable to me.


Is that because of the muscle tone issue and risks of incontinence, or for general post-pubescent development? Like I said, after the first heat seems like a sensible time to me. I'm just curious about the details of the advantages are behind letting that heat happen.


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## norabrown (Jul 20, 2007)

Delilah has several UTI's in her early months of life. We were told to let her have a heat to reduce this from happening. LIke you, we ran into vets on both sides of the fence. I prefer to ask a good breeder over a vet any day. 

We waited till 3 months after her first heat. You don't want to do it right after as there is a greater risk of hemmoraging.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Although I am uncertain of my opinion at this point, our board certified internist trained at Tufts is not unclear about her opinion: that much of the late spay/neuter is from fringe extremists with poor scientific methodology. 

From A UPenn Oncologist:


> It is a very well-established fact that "spaying" a dog before the first, second, or third heats provides a significant decrease in the risk of developing mammary carcinoma later in life.
> 
> The risk reduction is greatest when performed before the first heat, and decreases gradually until there is no risk reduction if performed after the fourth heat.


From Cornell, rebutting the Zink paper warning against spay neuter at 6 months, saying it's poor science:http://www.vet.cornell.edu/maddiesfund/spayNeuter/young.htm
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In fact, the literature states that the risk of developing mammary tumors in dogs spayed prior to the first estrus is 0.5%, 8% after the first estrus, and after the second estrus the risk will increase to 26% (Schneider, 1969). The sparing effect of OHE is lost after females have cycled more than twice or are older than 2.5-4 years of age. Hence, this is one of the reasons veterinarians recommend spaying before the first heat cycle. Mammary neoplasms are the most common tumors of the female dog (MacEwen, 1996). Additionally, the rate of malignancy of mammary tumors in dogs is typically considered to be closer to 50% (rather than the 30% stated by Dr. Zink) and clearly a significant problem in the intact female dog (Brodey, 1983; Gilbertson, 1983). .

Click to expand...

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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

The paper Ljilly posted also has an interesting comment about the relationship between the timing of the spay and incontinence. Apparently there's no advantage to waiting for the first heat.

We got a new vet for Comet recently since our old vet retired, and she kind of humored me when I said I was waiting until after 18 months to neuter him. She said she wasn't going to push me on it, since there weren't really disadvantages to waiting that long with boys, but that if he were a girl, she'd really not feel comfortable supporting me in waiting long past six months. She feels very confident that waiting longer is a fad and that the age of six months is a tried, true, and well-studied age for spaying and neutering.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

tippykayak said:


> She feels very confident that waiting longer is a fad and that the age of six months is a tried, true, and well-studied age for spaying and neutering.


That is interesting as it is exactly the opposite here. My vet (the Practice manager with 35 years experience) refuses to spay a bitch until she has had her first heat cycle...another Practice in the area will, but it is not really advised (I have 2 close friends working as veterinary nurses there and I was recently chatting about this very subject with them) It is a new way of thinking over here to spay young bitches...I know many vets over here are now jumping on the bandwagon to spay at 6/7 months but I reckon 20 years ago it would have been unheard of...and I am slightly suspicious of the financial benefits of pushing clients to spay/neuter asap...its money in the bank if they can get a puppy booked in within its first few months of life...


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I had an uncomfortable exchange with a vet in our practice when I mentioned I was sorry I had had Tally neutered before 18 months if it increased his cancer risk at all. He feels that it is a fad with people who are not breeders, just like Brian's vet, and that it is like a "social class" issue with purebred dogs owned by suburbanites now waiting to be spayed and neutered, while a bazillion mixed breed dogs crowd America's sheltered with a push from the same exact people to have them spayed and neutered at a very junvenile age like 3 months. He was really enraged at what he perceived as a complete double standard- yes, I will wait to have my precious Bernese Mountain Dog neutered but those pit mixes. . .! It was intense, but thought-provoking. He's a great diagnostician and a true eccentric, who comes to his last appointment occasionally in his kayaking gear and plays jazz pian. It wasnt as offensive as it sounds in writing.


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

I haven't read the whole of this thread so don't know others opinions, we had Jade our gd spayed at 6 months and our gsp at 15 months neither had a season before hand, we didn't see a problem at the time but Jade has since developed sphincta incompidence but she is 10 1/2(not all the time) it is a dribbling of urine.
Honey was spayed 3 months after her first season,I was shocked how swollen her vulva looked even if compared Jade and Honey now Honeys vulva is larger also her nipples are larger than Jades spaying before the first season inhibits the female hormone so the vulva etc stop developing I liken it to giving a prepubresiant girl a hysterectomy.


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