# My friend becomes Alpha? BIG PROBLEM?



## jc.corbett (Mar 2, 2010)

On the trail, off leash, Misha will listen to my commands and regard me as almost unequivocal pack leader. This all goes out the window if my friend Jon is there. She literally regards him as the pack leader, and if I turn around and hike in the opposite direction, WILL NOT come follow ME, but follows HIM. She even ignores commands from me. What is this about? It is very troubling. Can this be solved?


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

It sounds like she's just curious and interested in something different.

Set up controlled training sessions. Work in a low distraction environment, such as your house. Have your puppy and Jon and yourself in the same room. Have the VERY best treats in your pocket. Ask for a simple behavior (response to name, sit...) when your puppy responds, THEN pull out the treat and reinforce. Repeat a lot. Then go to another room....then another...then out in the yard...then a different part of the yard......etc..... If your puppy does not respond.....wait until she does....do not repeat the cue 

You're in luck, it's not about leadership! : http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't think this is an alpha issue. Honestly, it just sounds like your dog has a crush on your friend. This happens. Especially when you have a young dog (I'm seeing a puppy in your avatar and signature) who hasn't formed a tight bond with you yet. 

Just put a leash on your dog and encourage her (make yourself a lot of fun with lots of enthusiasm, no alpha growling or alpha pinning junk) to go explore other paths with you. 

Don't give your dog commands when it's doubtful that she will obey them, because it just reinforces her idea of ignoring your commands in those situations.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

I would definitely agree with RedDogs that the dog is just curious in somebody new. I doubt it has anything to do with leadership. I cannot comment on whether dogs still use pack mentality, I know from first hand experiences that two dominant males can get along fantastically which flies in the face of popular beliefs. I do not believe dogs actively measure people in terms of doggy dominance. They don't give out rankings to people in terms of where they stand on a dominance scale they just know where they stand in relation to that person.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Braccarius said:


> I do not believe dogs actively measure people in terms of doggy dominance. They don't give out rankings to people in terms of where they stand on a dominance scale they just know where they stand in relation to that person.


I definitely believe in alpha dog etc stuff, but I hate when it is used as a headliner in training or in how you form relationships with your dogs. Because then it's all about making dogs submit to you, when dog training should be more about making your dog WANT to work with you with positive handling and rewards. 

There are people out there who have dominant body language or handling that DOES have an effect on dogs. It's why we have certain rules in how you approach an unknown dog. Those rules come from how dogs interact with each other and identify approaching threats.


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## jc.corbett (Mar 2, 2010)

i need to change my avatar, as she is now nearing a year and a half old.


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## 4991 (Apr 18, 2008)

jc.corbett said:


> On the trail, off leash, Misha will listen to my commands and regard me as almost unequivocal pack leader. This all goes out the window if my friend Jon is there. She literally regards him as the pack leader...


I actually have a very hard time believing that  . Apart from the fact that I am having trouble with the "pack leader" stuff in this context - what does that mean: "almost"? And by the way, who is Jon? In particular: Who is Jon to Misha? Do they do things together, does he see her often? Or do they just randomly meet from time to time?



jc.corbett said:


> ... and if I turn around and hike in the opposite direction, WILL NOT come follow ME, but follows HIM. She even ignores commands from me.


Can you please explain this situation more clearly? Where were you at that time? What exactly happened? What did Jon do? What did you do? What did Misha do? How far did you go before you decided that she is not following you?

There is, by the way, a clear difference between a dog not interested in its owner to a degree that it doesn`t care when the owner leaves and goes out of sight (I have rarely seen that happen, even with the worst behaved and clearly out-of-control dogs...) and a dog that simply doesn`t obey commands. 



jc.corbett said:


> What is this about? It is very troubling. Can this be solved?


Well, as for me, I can not say what it is about from the little information I have found here. But can it be solved? Yes, absolutely. How? Depends on what exactly the problem is  and if there is a problem at all. To determine that - well, more information is necessary, at least in my opinion.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

There is something about Jon that is more fun, more interesting, more curious, more joyful, better smelling, more playful, more fun than and YOU! More interesting than mud puddles/sticks/rocks/squirrels/mice/other dogs and YOU! 

It is YOUR job to become more - interesting, more curious, more joyful, better smelling, more playful, more fun than and YOU! 
More interesting than mud puddles/sticks/rocks/squirrels/mice/other dogs then JON and EVERYONE ELSE in the universe!

In a class situation...VERY often you will see the instructor use a client's dogs to show how to preform a particular skill...the dogs typically respond with much excitement and compliance. --- Yes indeed, some of it has to do with the trainers ability, but a large part of it is that the dogs sees the trainer as someone more interesting then the owner..


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## jc.corbett (Mar 2, 2010)

ok, more details :

Jon is a good friend of mine. We go hiking together once or twice a week. When i walked away on the trail yesterday, I walked half a mile in the opposite direction through the desert. I watched her stand there and contemplate who to go with, and ultimately decide on Jon. I continued walking for ten minutes. I called her a few times, even used my fingers in a wolf whistle (which she always responds to), and she did not return. when I finally caught up with them, she would not come or sit until JON told her to do so. I let him know right then that I didn't want him giving her commands anymore when we were together unless it was absolutely necessary.

Again, when we are on trail alone, just me and her, she listens to me very well. when Jpn is there, he usurps me as the person to obey. it is odd. I firmly believe that if we were on a long-distance hike and went our separate ways, that she would choose to go with him. I have not tested this theory, but may in the future.

more on their relationship : Jon was the first person beside myself and my girlfriend that she met as a 9 week old puppy. he used to come over during the day to walk her while i was at work.


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## GinnyinPA (Oct 31, 2010)

sorry - post deleted after reading jc's last post.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

At 18 months, I imagine it is nothing more than someone special who visits only sometimes. Not so much about alpha as is it about new, curious, exciting. Maybe as simple as better treats! 

I don't think it's a problem in a casual setting like a hike where you are all doing your 'own' thing. You and Jon walking and chatting, dogs snooping and sniffing.

People tend of over analyze and create problems where there are none. Do not set up tests the way you did if there isn't a huge opportnity for success. I agree with Megora that if you can't reinforce your command you are teaching her that obedience is optional according to her desires.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Quote:

he used to come over during the day to walk her while i was at work. 
__________________

So he is someone who she is quite familiar with, very comfortable with, played the part of parent while you were at work, and she learned that when Jon was there, she walked with him. It was just the two of them and they walked. She is repeating behavior that she has learned from day one. 

Be sure to work very carefully with this. You don't want to confuse her by now demanding she NOT walk with Jon.

When you walk with Jon, how often do you go in separate directions? I see you setting up a problem that doesn't actually come up in the course of your walks. As far as Jon giving commands, dogs can take commands from multiple people without 'usurping' the owner's status with the dog. I know at the end of the day, Penny will want to go home with me.


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## 4991 (Apr 18, 2008)

jc.corbett said:


> Jon was the first person beside myself and my girlfriend that she met as a 9 week old puppy. he used to come over during the day to walk her while i was at work.


Well, that would probably explain it. He obviously trained and walked her and it was expected of her to obey his commands. She cannot know that now, this is no longer the case. And it would, frankly, be a bit unfair to the dog to expect from her that she now should no longer listen to Jon. Plus - puppies bond and learn to bond particularly well in those early weeks. If you gave her away for a couple of hours each day while she was 9 to 16 / 20 weeks old - well, this is what comes of it.

Actually, the fact that she listens to his commands would not worry me; as it was said before, any well-trained dog does that.

However, the fact that she would rather go with him than with me if given no command - yes, that would bother me, too. Although, truth be told, it is not a real problem in daily life. Just take her on the leash when you leave Jon behind... 

My own dog used to live at my parents` home for a few weeks when she was young because she got sick and needed to be taken care of all day long which I couldn`t do because I had to work. Anyway, even after that time, if we were walking in the woods and we parted ways, she would - without any command - always come with me. I actually know that because we did it. 

But, as I said, this is not really a huge problem. It is a problem you can handle simply by having Jon not giving any commands and taking your dog on the leash when parting ways on the trail. And in a few weeks time, it might not be an issue anymore - she is 18 months old... just keep spending quality time with her, be a fair and clear guide for her in daily life. It will be ok. Don`t worry too much.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

If every time I saw a particular dog all I did was lavish them with treats, affection and fun things to do... you can bet your booty that they'd be far more interested in me than they should be.


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