# Comp. obedience - Prong Collar



## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I am thinking about getting a prong collar to improve Molly's heeling. From what I've read, I feel that it is almost necessary to use a prong collar to get a nice, polished heel. Is it possible to achieve it without one?

I guess I'm a little worried that the collar might diminish her love for training, especially for something she already isn't too thrilled about, like figure 8s. However, I've read how much a prong collar could improve a dog's heeling...

Does anyone have any insight? I will also ask my trainer next week. 

(Just to be clear, the collar will only be used during training and not on walks.)


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Talk to your trainer. 

The only reason I would put a prong on Bertie is if that level of committment to heeling is not completely there from him. And this won't be until he's grown up anyway. 

I put a prong on Jacks and do from time to time to brush up on that committment. 

By committment, I mean that if the dog shifts into lower gear. Like - yeah, he's with me, but kinda daydreaming. His pace isn't as crisp as it should be. He's not focused as tightly as he should be, etc. 

The collar alone will not fix those problems. You need to really reinforce that attention and focus you get when the dog is wearing that prong, otherwise you may have a dog who only offers that singular focus while the prong is digging into his scalp.

*** One suggestion as far as f8 heeling. You can definitely put a prong on her, but also stick a toy under your arm or down your pants to toss or drop as a reward at any given time or do the treat toss releases (in front if your dog is a lagger, behind if she's a forger). One thing our instructor recommended way back and I wish I'd stuck to it better, but she said never practice complete 8's while the dog is still learning. You will release at any given point and this trains the dogs to pay attention.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

It is possible to get nice heeling on a dog without a prong, there are plenty of people who have done so. 

However, I really like using a prong, I've never seen negative effects when I've used one. It is so much easier to enforce correct heel position with a prong than any other collar - it can be done with just the flick of a finger on the leash.

I really like Janice Demello's video Cruise Control for Power Heeling. It shows you how to use a prong collar and your upper body movement to lead a dog in heeling


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Keep in mind, a prong (at least the one I have) is not designed to choke the dog, or poke the neck. If grabs the scruff, just like a mother does to her pups. 

Everyone uses a prong at my training facility. It' not a requirement there, just a recommendation. 

As I said in another comment yesterday, its important to have someone who knows what they are doing size it, show you how to put it on, and demonstrate how to use it. 


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

And get one with the small size prongs, not the medium


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Thanks to OP and all responses for an interesting thread... I love learning new things on this forum.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I am thinking about getting a prong collar to improve Molly's heeling. From what I've read, I feel that it is almost necessary to use a prong collar to get a nice, polished heel. Is it possible to achieve it without one?


It is certainly not necessary for a polished heel. If you don't feel good using one on Molly, don't. I train at one center where nobody uses a prong, and I certainly see a ton of incredibly precise, polished heeling.

In my experience, precise rewarding creates precise behavior. However, I have not titled a dog in competition obedience, so take what I have to say with that in mind.


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## CStrong73 (Jun 11, 2012)

Our trainer also recommends (quite adamantly) that you buy the German version of the prong collar, NOT the US made kind. According to her, the German ones have bent prongs and grab the scruff, the US ones have straight prongs that poke.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Loisiana said:


> And get one with the small size prongs, not the medium


 
Buy the small and just add the extra prongs. I used them with my GSDs and Great Pyrs, and am now considering using them for my goldens. They did not hate them at all. You can tighten one around your arm, and see that the pressure goes all around, and it doesn't hurt.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

CStrong73 said:


> Our trainer also recommends (quite adamantly) that you buy the German version of the prong collar, NOT the US made kind. According to her, the German ones have bent prongs and grab the scruff, the US ones have straight prongs that poke.


I don't think I have ever seen the straight ones. Thanks for this info.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Thank you everyone. There is a training facility near me that also has a supply shop, so I was hoping someone would be able to help me fit one on Molly. If not, I'm going to take it to class next week to ask my trainer. 

Why is it better to get a small instead of a medium?


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Thank you everyone. There is a training facility near me that also has a supply shop, so I was hoping someone would be able to help me fit one on Molly. If not, I'm going to take it to class next week to ask my trainer.
> 
> Why is it better to get a small instead of a medium?
> 
> ...


The small prongs don't hurt, the larger ones do.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

You can get a more precise fit and correction with the small than the medium.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I wouldn't say the larger size hurts more than the small, it's just less effective. With the medium or large sizes, your prongs will be bigger, but they will be spaced out more. With the small, the prongs will be smaller, but closer together, providing more pressure all around.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I do use a prong for heeling but like the others have said, the prong collar alone will do nothing to help your heeling if you don't know how to use it. I do not fix forging or lagging with a prong. I do use it to say "COME ON COME ON TRY HARDER." I want a lot of effort with heeling, the more effort the bigger reward, I have found that the prong is much more effective in producing more effort than a buckle collar. But my dog has been taught this from day one and understands it. If you slapped it on a new dog, it would probably confuse them. So bottom line, if you know someone with heeling you want and they use a prong collar to help it, talk to them and learn from them. 

As far as types of collar, go with a small but buy two and link them together. Herm Sprenger is the best brand (could be mis-spelling it).


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I really like the prongs from here. This lady takes the Herm Sprenger collars and puts a side release buckle on it so it's easy to take on and off. Otherwise you have to pull apart and put back together the prongs themselves, which can be a pain

Herm Sprenger prong collars with side release, quick release buckle|Leashes by Design


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

This discussion has been eye opening for me. No one at the training center I go to uses a prong. Our heeling isn't that great yet but I think I'll pass on the prong for now. My instructor has mentioned that many people use them. She's put OTCHs on a couple of dogs and doesn't seem to think we need one.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

I use a prong collar on both of my dogs. I can't remember the last time I have had to do more that a lift of my fingers to relay my message. My dogs are happy and not the least bit stressed about it.. quite the opposite in fact because they know it is their turn to play.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> I really like the prongs from here. This lady takes the Herm Sprenger collars and puts a side release buckle on it so it's easy to take on and off. Otherwise you have to pull apart and put back together the prongs themselves, which can be a pain
> 
> Herm Sprenger prong collars with side release, quick release buckle|Leashes by Design


I have been wondering if these work well. I have a hard time with the one I have. It has a martingale type clip but I still have a hard time using it.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-hunt-field/128770-reading-dog.html

While the above thread is in the hunt and field there are many responses that I personally agree with. I think it comes down to you, your furbaby and the relationship between the two of you. Read Hotelfordogs comments in that thread.
I also am with Tippy on this, you know Molly and what will or will not work for her.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My first golden, Sally heeled perfectly, the old fashioned way, by my side, but not with her head up. She was a gorgeous heeler. My second dog, Laney was taught by me and my OTCH friend, using a microprong collar. The method used was Terry Arnold's method. She was a gorgeous heeler. Used properly, with correct timing, on the right dog, you can achieve good results... I stopped using it after she got her CD and she went on to get her CDX and UD, with placements for all legs. Cookie, George, and Mantha who all each got at least a CD, were trained with a buckle collar and a clicker. They also heel/heeled with their heads up. Personally, I am grateful to no longer be doing collar pops, but that is just how I have evolved. When Laney got collar pops, it truly made her brighter and try harder. My subsequent dogs are more soft...


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Update:

I don't feel 100% comfortable using the prong collar on her right now. I did get the Herm small collar with extra links. It affects my energy and subsequently it affects Molly's too. Every day I try it but I remove it and remember Tippy's post. At this point I am going to focus on precise rewarding and extra praise. Our problem is regarding about turns so we have been playing a lot of games to fix that. 


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

At Bertie's class on Saturday the instructor recommended these collars as a more feel-good alternative to using prongs. They're called starmark collars? 

From what you've typed I do not think you need this or the prongs - though it's NICE to have a good prong collar in your training bag.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> At Bertie's class on Saturday the instructor recommended these collars as a more feel-good alternative to using prongs. They're called starmark collars?
> 
> From what you've typed I do not think you need this or the prongs - though it's NICE to have a good prong collar in your training bag.


They're the feel good alternative!?!? They look terrifying!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> They're the feel good alternative!?!? They look terrifying!


LOL. They look quite a bit different in person. : 

Our Products | Starmark <- More info here. 

My gut feeling is the "feel good" part is when its on your dog, it looks a bit like a flat collar.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Megora said:


> At Bertie's class on Saturday the instructor recommended these collars as a more feel-good alternative to using prongs. They're called starmark collars?
> 
> From what you've typed I do not think you need this or the prongs - though it's NICE to have a good prong collar in your training bag.


Yikes that looks even scarier!

I'm definitely keeping it in my bag. I don't think I need it either, at least not right now.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

If you're really set on forgoing the prong for now, try posting a "reward-based heeling" thread. There are several members who don't use prongs or chokes for their competition obedience heeling, and they may have good books, videos, and techniques for you.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Yikes that looks even scarier!
> 
> I'm definitely keeping it in my bag. I don't think I need it either, at least not right now.http://www.petguide.com/mobile


Gotta agree. To me that thing looks like a medieval torture device.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> They're the feel good alternative!?!? They look terrifying!


The dog doesn't know how scary it looks.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

To be perfectly honest......now that I think about it, Bella could probably heel just as well without the prong right now. After all, I use the light line in the house for every practice session (with literally zero corrections), and she does just as well. However, I do believe she has gotten to the point she is at faster than she otherwise would have due to the prong collar.

I actually need it more for casual walks.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm going to try a few training sessions without the prong, and see how it goes. Maybe the treats will be enough. She will still wear it in class tomorrow night, though. 

I'll report back on the results.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Well, here goes.....even though we had already trained earlier, I decided to do some indoor heeling on the flat collar...about 5 minutes with the leash, and 5 minutes on the light line. Because it was indoors, there were a lot of left, right, and about turns. 

She did just as well, if not better, without the prong. I'll have to try it several more times for it to be conclusive. This may not have been the case a month ago, or even a few weeks ago. Her heeling has improved 100% since we started the intermediate class. 

Like I said, the prong collar is more needed for pulling issues in non-training situations. That is still a work in progress. Maybe I'll use the flat collar for her walk tonight, and see how that goes.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The beauty is with clicker training, the prong is gone and I think the mice in my garage ate my light line so have never practiced with it.... My issue is that since my guys learn to heel without a leash, they prefer to heel off leash...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Wearing a prong in obedience is similar to wearing an ecollar in field. You shouldn't have to use it often, but (if you use one) on the occasions you do you're glad it's there


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> My issue is that since my guys learn to heel without a leash, they prefer to heel off leash...


Janice - I have a similar problem now I'm training a puppy. I got him started offleash first like I did with Jacks. The reason for that is I generally have my hands full or busy giving treats and guiding puppy butts or noses. But have to get him used to working on leash for class. 

I have no idea if it's me being extra clumsy handling a strange leash (Bert's training leash is new) or Berts reacting to me giving off different body language because that fangled leash is getting in the way. : 

With Jacks it was and is the same way. He's better off leash than on. It's a gift and a curse, because of course I wanted him to be good on leash - at least while we are still doing novice trials for practice...


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Loisiana said:


> Wearing a prong in obedience is similar to wearing an ecollar in field. You shouldn't have to use it often, but (if you use one) on the occasions you do you're glad it's there


I think you make a good point. It's probably more effective if they don't have it on every time you train.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Nairb said:


> I think you make a good point. It's probably more effective if they don't have it on every time you train.


I treat wearing a prong like I do using a leash for heeling. They heel enough without it to know they can still do it, but more with than without. What you want to avoid is not having it on, the dog has a problem, so you whip it out, correct the dog, then take it off. That's how the dog learns to behave the way you want only when certain equipment is on.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Loisiana said:


> I treat wearing a prong like I do using a leash for heeling. They heel enough without it to know they can still do it, but more with than without. What you want to avoid is not having it on, the dog has a problem, so you whip it out, correct the dog, then take it off. That's how the dog learns to behave the way you want only when certain equipment is on.


Thanks. That makes a lot of sense.

Just got back from a 2 mile walk with the flat collar. It was almost as if she knew I was testing her, because she did pretty good!

The prong isn't going to be put away for good, though. I'm just glad she can do this stuff without it.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Used thoughtfully by an even-tempered, level-headed, skillful person who has good timing, most tools can be fine.

However, I am so very admiring of people who can train without force. 

While people make their own separate peaces about how to train dogs, I personally do not believe in using prong or e collars on my goldens.


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