# How did you get started in hunt/field & how far have you gone?



## abradshaw71

Thanks for starting this thread!


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## FTGoldens

Great thread!
My girlfriend in college wanted a puppy for her birthday; the first litter we visited was Goldens; you know that it is impossible to say "no" to a Golden puppy. Well, a year later I "needed" my own Golden, so I found a well bred a field dog. At first, I trained alone via Richard Wolters' "Water Dog." At some point, I went to a field trial and thought, "Holy Cow, that looks like fun." I read more books and went to more trials, where I met other folks interested in training retrievers. Eventually, I got in a position to where I could occasionally train with other amateurs and, on rare but valuable opportunities, pros.
I've had competitive Open dogs.
FTGoldens


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## hotel4dogs

Just getting started, too. Was ready to retire Tito from the breed ring since he had gotten his CH, and the obedience ring since he had his UDX, and was sort of looking for something to do with him as he had just turned 3 and I figured he had a lot of years of activity left. Someone suggested field, we tried it, and we love it!


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## abradshaw71

So I found this website with a list of AKC Field Trials: theRetrieverNews.com - AKC Field Trials I'm very excited because there is one less than an hour away from me the first weekend of May. I'm going to email the person linked with the trial, but can anyone show up and watch these? I have no idea what to even watch, expect, etc.


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## Vhuynh2

I would have never considered field training if it weren't for this forum. I had read a lot that many conformation dogs can't do the work, so I was curious if Molly could do it and if she would enjoy it. I had no idea where to start.. So I asked my obedience instructor who had put hunting titles on her goldens. She connected me with someone still in the sport who gave me names of pros and told me to go to a training day at the local HRC (which I am now a board member of, who woulda thunk?!!). That was just about a year ago. Molly got her WC last October and we will probably run Junior in May. We run our trainer's setups twice a week and he kind of guides us somewhat (taught me how to FF and how to teach Molly to handle). We just started seeing a pro (1-2 times a month) who provides us with more of a detailed plan and he is also sort of my troubleshooter now, patching up the holes in Molly's training.

Oh and Molly LOVES it and as far as I can tell she CAN do the work! I thought she loved obedience, but after starting field, I'm pretty sure she thinks obedience is boring in comparison. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


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## abradshaw71

Vhuynh2 said:


> I would have never considered field training if it weren't for this forum. I had read a lot that many conformation dogs can't do the work, so I was curious if Molly could do it and if she would enjoy it. I had no idea where to start.. So I asked my obedience instructor who had put hunting titles on her goldens. She connected me with someone still in the sport who gave me names of pros and told me to go to a training day at the local HRC (which I am now a board member of, who woulda thunk?!!). That was just about a year ago. Molly got her WC last October and we will probably run Junior in May. We run our trainer's setups twice a week and he kind of guides us somewhat (taught me how to FF and how to teach Molly to handle). We just started seeing a pro (1-2 times a month) who provides us with more of a detailed plan and he is also sort of my troubleshooter now, patching up the holes in Molly's training.
> 
> Oh and Molly LOVES it and as far as I can tell she CAN do the work! I thought she loved obedience, but after starting field, I'm pretty sure she thinks obedience is boring in comparison.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


I guess that's my concern...I don't know if Josie has the right temperament and personality for this. She is not good at focusing, but I've never tried anything like this with her, so maybe it would be good for her to help with her focusing issues.


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## goldlover68

Our family grew to where we had three kids, I had always wanted a big dog as I had raised a Siberian Husky when I was young in the mountains of Colorado. My time with that dog 'Kiska' was a special time in my life. 

So after my wife and I did a ton of research we settled on a Golden. We found a good hobby breeder and got our first Golden, Amber...we all fell in love with her right away. As my two boys grew they got into bird hunting with me and we always took Amber with us. She was 'birdy' and would fetch birds for us, if she saw them fall or found them by smell. 

A friend of mine invited me to a 'hunt test' and said bring your pup along as they are having a puppy run also. So we all went, that did it! I was hooked... I met so many great people and their great dogs. We really enjoyed working our young dog on birds and the older guys told us what she was doing, and encouraged us to do more training. That started my life long learning on Golden's and Field Golden's. I have read everything I can find, attend many hunt tests and field trials. Hired trainers and trained my Golden's and it is something we all still do together even though we are over 60 and our kids are over 30 (and our Grand kids are now included)

I have trained and had trained 5 Golden's with 3 titled as JH and 1 SH.

Have a young one in training now and I hope to go to the MH level with her...

All have been great family dogs and great hunting companions....

The best way to get your adult kids to invite you to go hunting with them is to have a trained retriever......!


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## FTGoldens

abradshaw71 said:


> can anyone show up and watch these? I have no idea what to even watch, expect, etc.


Absolutely! You can show up and watch these magnificent animals doing what they love to do because they are bred to do it! Unfortunately, you will see mostly labs, but if you're lucky there will be a few Goldens entered as well. A few suggestions:
1. If possible, view all 4 stakes, beginning with Derby, ending with the Open, so you can see everything from the super-enthusiastic young guns who can mark with incredible precision, as well as the more experienced dogs who can recall the location of 3 or 4 birds, run straight lines no matter what obstacles are in their way, and take hand signals from 300-400 yards away.
2. Don't wear white (the dogs running blinds will be looking for their handlers who will be wearing white, so you don't want to confuse the dogs).
3. Find someone to talk to, let them know that you are there as a spectator, it's your first visit, etc. (Hint: Don't try to strike up a conversation with anyone heading to the line with a dog ... they are getting focused on the task, developing a game plan, etc. OR heading from the line with a dog ... they may be mulling over the mistakes they or their dog made).
FTGoldens


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## Alaska7133

Also offer to volunteer! It's great fun to go out there and throw birds for the dogs. You'll need someone to show you how to do it, but once you get going it's so much fun. If you can shoot a bird even better.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Got the dogs in December of 2012 and never had dogs or knew what to do with them other than obedience and show ring stuff. I love being outdoors and was taking them everywhere in ditches, in the woods, ect. My oldest LOVED getting the balls and sticks and I joked to the breeder wish they had a venue in retrieving. ha! So she said they do its hunt/field. So she had a friend that went day training with a local pro in my area and gave me his email. He literally lived a few miles from my house and said come out and watch. That was in Feb/March 2013. 
I was hooked. I loved his training methods and when I finished up with less than satisfying obedience classes I started going out more and more.
Now our families are good friends, I train with him nearly every day and I've learned more about dogs and training than I ever realized existed. 
Our lives have literally done a 180 because of this stuff in ways I can't even explain. I love it and am so grateful for our dogs!


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## Laurie

Lexx and I will be starting field training next month. To be honest, I'm not sure what to expect from him. He loves water and loves retrieving so I'm crossing my fingers that he will enjoy this. My biggest worry is that he won`t pick up a dead bird!! Bumpers....no problem!

In any event, I`m really looking forward to it. If he does well, I hope to attempt our WC later this summer.


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## abradshaw71

goldlover68 said:


> Our family grew to where we had three kids, I had always wanted a big dog as I had raised a Siberian Husky when I was young in the mountains of Colorado. My time with that dog 'Kiska' was a special time in my life.
> 
> So after my wife and I did a ton of research we settled on a Golden. We found a good hobby breeder and got our first Golden, Amber...we all fell in love with her right away. As my two boys grew they got into bird hunting with me and we always took Amber with us. She was 'birdy' and would fetch birds for us, if she saw them fall or found them by smell.
> 
> A friend of mine invited me to a 'hunt test' and said bring your pup along as they are having a puppy run also. So we all went, that did it! I was hooked... I met so many great people and their great dogs. We really enjoyed working our young dog on birds and the older guys told us what she was doing, and encouraged us to do more training. That started my life long learning on Golden's and Field Golden's. I have read everything I can find, attend many hunt tests and field trials. Hired trainers and trained my Golden's and it is something we all still do together even though we are over 60 and our kids are over 30 (and our Grand kids are now included)
> 
> I have trained and had trained 5 Golden's with 3 titled as JH and 1 SH.
> 
> Have a young one in training now and I hope to go to the MH level with her...
> 
> All have been great family dogs and great hunting companions....
> 
> The best way to get your adult kids to invite you to go hunting with them is to have a trained retriever......!


My dad and I went pheasant hunting in North Dakota this past October. Me and seven guys! Thankfully we were all related.  We had a 3 year old German Shorthair and a 2 year old chocolate lab with us and they did an amazing job. There were times I missed birds because I was too busy watching the dogs do what they do best!  The weather was crummy, but we still managed to limit out our 3 1/2 days of hunting. It was a fantastic trip.

Allison


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## abradshaw71

FTGoldens said:


> Absolutely! You can show up and watch these magnificent animals doing what they love to do because they are bred to do it! Unfortunately, you will see mostly labs, but if you're lucky there will be a few Goldens entered as well. A few suggestions:
> 1. If possible, view all 4 stakes, beginning with Derby, ending with the Open, so you can see everything from the super-enthusiastic young guns who can mark with incredible precision, as well as the more experienced dogs who can recall the location of 3 or 4 birds, run straight lines no matter what obstacles are in their way, and take hand signals from 300-400 yards away.
> 2. Don't wear white (the dogs running blinds will be looking for their handlers who will be wearing white, so you don't want to confuse the dogs).
> 3. Find someone to talk to, let them know that you are there as a spectator, it's your first visit, etc. (Hint: Don't try to strike up a conversation with anyone heading to the line with a dog ... they are getting focused on the task, developing a game plan, etc. OR heading from the line with a dog ... they may be mulling over the mistakes they or their dog made).
> FTGoldens


Thank you! This was so helpful. I think I have some reading to do before the event.


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## MillionsofPeaches

I went to a pheasant shoot to help with photos. It was amazing and I couldn't wait to come with my girl!


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## abradshaw71

Do they use live birds at the trials? I'm a hunter, so no big deal if they do. I had always assumed they just used decoys and bumpers.


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## MillionsofPeaches

FTGoldens said:


> Great thread!
> My girlfriend in college wanted a puppy for her birthday; the first litter we visited was Goldens; you know that it is impossible to say "no" to a Golden puppy. Well, a year later I "needed" my own Golden, so I found a well bred a field dog. At first, I trained alone via Richard Wolters' "Water Dog." At some point, I went to a field trial and thought, "Holy Cow, that looks like fun." I read more books and went to more trials, where I met other folks interested in training retrievers. Eventually, I got in a position to where I could occasionally train with other amateurs and, on rare but valuable opportunities, pros.
> I've had competitive Open dogs.
> FTGoldens


I know what you mean about looking into more field bred goldens after your first. My girl is pretty slow and sometimes I wish she'd have a more speed. But she is super steady and it is easy for me to learn the gun and all that jazz so its a 50/50 win/lose with her. But my second is turing out to be a little demon! I swear she is so fast and marks perfectly and takes a line like no one else. Her only flaw is her stubbornness which comes and goes. Ever since she had her first heat she is getting her stuff together and I'm really excited to run her all week at training. I'm a little jealous that my daughter gets to run her at tests but don't tell!!!


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## MillionsofPeaches

abradshaw71 said:


> Do they use live birds at the trials? I'm a hunter, so no big deal if they do. I had always assumed they just used decoys and bumpers.


The birds are dead but they will have a live flyer that is shot and is often still alive and squawking. The decoys are used to divert their attention. No bumpers.


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## abradshaw71

Thank you for all of the information. This has been so helpful.


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## K9-Design

With my first golden who was born in 1992, our first night of obedience class (he was 12 weeks, I was 13 years old) we immediately befriended Loyd & June Kiernan who had Sunfire goldens and were big proponents of field work. They took us under their wing and made us go field training  I remember my first golden was a nut for bumpers but took a lot of encouragement to pick up a pigeon. It took us two times but we passed the WC. When I got Fisher I did JH and WC as a matter of course, I think we practiced maybe 6 times for each 
When Fisher was 3 I was approached by a well known performance breeder who was interested in breeding to Fisher. I said sure -- if you'll help me train him for Senior  I also attended a Mike Lardy seminar soon after which set me on the right path. From then we just kept training, Fisher eventually got his Master Hunter and ran in several quals. I now have his son Slater who was a MH at 3 yrs old and needs one pass for HRCH (actually Fisher needs one pass for HRCH too but not sure if he'll ever get it -- he will be 11 next month and has been out of training for some months). I have even higher hopes for my 14 month old Bally


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## abradshaw71

K9-Design said:


> With my first golden who was born in 1992, our first night of obedience class (he was 12 weeks, I was 13 years old) we immediately befriended Loyd & June Kiernan who had Sunfire goldens and were big proponents of field work. They took us under their wing and made us go field training  I remember my first golden was a nut for bumpers but took a lot of encouragement to pick up a pigeon. It took us two times but we passed the WC. When I got Fisher I did JH and WC as a matter of course, I think we practiced maybe 6 times for each
> When Fisher was 3 I was approached by a well known performance breeder who was interested in breeding to Fisher. I said sure -- if you'll help me train him for Senior  I also attended a Mike Lardy seminar soon after which set me on the right path. From then we just kept training, Fisher eventually got his Master Hunter and ran in several quals. I now have his son Slater who was a MH at 3 yrs old and needs one pass for HRCH (actually Fisher needs one pass for HRCH too but not sure if he'll ever get it -- he will be 11 next month and has been out of training for some months). I have even higher hopes for my 14 month old Bally


Can you help me understand what some of your abbreviations mean? Sorry. I'm a newbie to this amazing world of field training.


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## PalouseDogs

Short answer: My golden girl, Maple, drug me into it.

Long answer:
For decades, one of my dreams has been to put an OTCH on a dog, but I am one of those people that prefers to have no more than 2 dogs, maybe 3 if one is old, at a time. I've had 3 standard poodles, that, for various reasons, were not OTCH prospects (mostly health issues). 

I started looking for another dog, when Alder, my current standard poodle, was 3 years old. I had decided that I had had my last poodle heartbreak. (Alder is a sweet boy, but he has epilepsy, hip dysplasia, two heart murmurs, and high blood pressure.) I wanted either a golden or a border collie, the top two obedience breeds. I'm fascinated by the BC capacity to understand an amazing number of words, and I was leaning towards the BC. 

But, I was also on a hunting poodle list, sort of thinking that, since Alder couldn't do agility, maybe I'd try hunt tests. If I had a second dog, I wanted to able to do similar things with them, so I went to take a look at a local golden litter when the puppies were 10 days old. The litter was mix of obedience and hunting lines. I fell in love with the parents and put down a deposit. 

For Maple's first couple of years, I was all about obedience and agility. When it became clear that she hated jumping, I dropped the agility and focused on obedience. She is, far and away, the best dog I've ever trained...as long as we are in our yard. She hated riding in a vehicle and being away from home. She hated obedience trials. Her novice scores were worse than Alder's. She wouldn't make eye contact, she wanted to go home, but she didnt want to get in the van to do it. 

All along, I'd been reading a book or two about hunt training, but to an outsider, it's a difficult sport to enter. Very intimidating for a middle-aged woman who's never hunted to even know where to start. I was having my husband throw bumpers every once in a while and Maple made it very clear that she LOVED marks. Her first swimming experience was an accident. When she was about 6 months old, in winter, I was at a local park with a little stream running through it. Maple went to wade in the water. Before I knew what was happening, she was in the middle of the stream and went totally under water. I was ready to go in after her, but she came up right away and swam out. She got on the bank, shook herself off, paused, looked at the water, and went back in. She went under briefly, came right back up and swam. That was the last time she went under. She was utterly fascinated. She kept going in the water and swimming with a look of bliss on her face. 

Since she clearly liked swimming and liked retrieving, I thought I would try to improve her attitude towards vehicles by taking her to a nearby pond to see if she would retrieve in water the following summer when the weather was warmer. I had a rope tied to the bumper, thinking the first few attempts, I might have to encourage her out. Ha ha. After two tosses with the rope, it was obvious I didn't need the rope. She was so excited about retrieving in water, she would splash out to shoulder height and look back impatiently waiting for the throw. I spent the afternoon throwing the bumper as far as I could into the water. I got tired of it long before she was ready to quit. 

When she was about 2.5 years old, a professor in the department who had labs gave me 2 dead pigeons and a dead mallard. He told me to slowly and carefully introduce her to gunshots and warned me that she was a little old for her first intro to gunfire. I had George go way out and throw a bumper and fire the 22 rifle. It soon became clear that one association of guns and retrieving was all she needed to get amped up whenever she saw or heard gunfire. It took a little bit to get her to hold the duck, but once she had it down, she prefered the duck to pigeons, bumpers, or dokkens. My professor friend encouraged me to go to a NAHRA training day. 

I was so naive, I wore an upland game bird orange hunting vest to my first training day, thinking that was what duck hunters wore. They let me play anyway. Maple was so excited. I had only used a starter pistol up until then, and she had never seen bird boys. I was taken aback at how loud the blanks were, but Maple didn't give a flip about the gunfire, the bird boys, the other dogs, nothing. She just wanted to retrieve. 

We kept training obedience, but I shifted my focus to hunt training, hoping to improve her attitude toward traveling. It's been a journey of a million mistakes on my part, but her hunting drive is so intense that it has carried her past my mistakes. I took a couple of lessons from a local hunt training in force fetch and beginning baseball and more or less followed Lardy to start. The hunt trainer was (I thought) a little too heavy handed with the e-collar and I know I misused it to start. She was getting a bad attitude towards handling training. Not to mention, as a beginner, my signals were inconsistant and there was a lot of confusion between hunt and utility obedience training. 

Last fall, I set the e-collar aside and started handling from the beginning, always asking myself how I would train if this were a utility exercise. I feel like I've finally made progress. I feel I have a better understanding of when and how to use the e-collar for handling and have carefully reintroduced it. We'll see if I've made as much progress as i think when we attempt senior this spring.

It's a tough sport to get into compared to obedience and agility. I was very, very lucky that my dog was born knowing more about it than I've learned. I was lucky to have someone to give me a coupld of birds, lucky there's a nearby NAHRA club with members willing to help total novices. 

And, Maple's attitude toward traveling IS slowly improving.


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## abradshaw71

Thank you, PalouseDogs. Wonderful story about Maple. It sounds like the two of you were meant to be. 

I have been told to never use an e-collar on goldens because they will have a very negative reaction to it and it will damage their spirit. I'm not for or against them. Just somewhere in the middle as to what dog they should or shouldn't be used with. I've seen them used very effectively with my cousins, GSP. I don't believe my current golden would ever trust me again if I ever used with her. That's just her personality.

Love Maple's introduction to water. My last golden sank the first time I put her in water. After that initial introduction, I had all I could do to keep her out. She loved to retrieve in the water. That was her absolute passion.


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## K9-Design

abradshaw71 said:


> I have been told to never use an e-collar on goldens because they will have a very negative reaction to it and it will damage their spirit. I'm not for or against them. Just somewhere in the middle as to what dog they should or shouldn't be used with. I've seen them used very effectively with my cousins, GSP. I don't believe my current golden would ever trust me again if I ever used with her. That's just her personality.


Not to hijack the thread or beat a dead horse, but this is of course absolutely untrue. Goldens can and are successfully field trained using an ecollar. All three of mine are. A lot of people think that an ecollar is for a hard headed dog. No, an ecollar is for a soft dog. An ecollar is unemotional. I would not be able to train my middle dog (Slater, who is BY FAR the most sensitive dog I have) without the ecollar. It is HOW you use it -- not WHAT you use.


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## goldlover68

abradshaw71 said:


> My dad and I went pheasant hunting in North Dakota this past October. Me and seven guys! Thankfully we were all related.  We had a 3 year old German Shorthair and a 2 year old chocolate lab with us and they did an amazing job. There were times I missed birds because I was too busy watching the dogs do what they do best!  The weather was crummy, but we still managed to limit out our 3 1/2 days of hunting. It was a fantastic trip.
> 
> Allison



Wow, that sounds like a fantastic trip! You are right, watching the dogs work and how excited and how much fun they are having is really what it is all about. If you get any birds....it is just icing on the cake! Thanks for sharing....


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## goldlover68

abradshaw71 said:


> Thank you! This was so helpful. I think I have some reading to do before the event.


You can find everything you want to know and read on the AKC website. They have PDF's on all the rules for Field Trials for retrievers (Competitive Events) and Hunt Test for Retrievers (performance to a standard test).

If you can go to a hunt test and field trail....it is easy to watch and enjoy. Bring your own chair....and water


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## goldlover68

K9-Design said:


> With my first golden who was born in 1992, our first night of obedience class (he was 12 weeks, I was 13 years old) we immediately befriended Loyd & June Kiernan who had Sunfire goldens and were big proponents of field work. They took us under their wing and made us go field training  I remember my first golden was a nut for bumpers but took a lot of encouragement to pick up a pigeon. It took us two times but we passed the WC. When I got Fisher I did JH and WC as a matter of course, I think we practiced maybe 6 times for each
> When Fisher was 3 I was approached by a well known performance breeder who was interested in breeding to Fisher. I said sure -- if you'll help me train him for Senior  I also attended a Mike Lardy seminar soon after which set me on the right path. From then we just kept training, Fisher eventually got his Master Hunter and ran in several quals. I now have his son Slater who was a MH at 3 yrs old and needs one pass for HRCH (actually Fisher needs one pass for HRCH too but not sure if he'll ever get it -- he will be 11 next month and has been out of training for some months). I have even higher hopes for my 14 month old Bally



Now that's a good story! You have really done well with your dogs....going to MH level is a real challenge for both dog and handler.


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## goldlover68

abradshaw71 said:


> Can you help me understand what some of your abbreviations mean? Sorry. I'm a newbie to this amazing world of field training.


Check this link: Hunting Title Explanations


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## PalouseDogs

K9-Design said:


> Not to hijack the thread or beat a dead horse, but this is of course absolutely untrue. Goldens can and are successfully field trained using an ecollar. All three of mine are. A lot of people think that an ecollar is for a hard headed dog. No, an ecollar is for a soft dog. An ecollar is unemotional. I would not be able to train my middle dog (Slater, who is BY FAR the most sensitive dog I have) without the ecollar. It is HOW you use it -- not WHAT you use.


I totally agree. Let me be clear, that I DO use an e-collar. If nothing else, it is especially useful for teaching a recall. If you do field training, you'll be in a lot of wide open spaces. Unfortunately, it's hard to find any space these days that isn't near a road. You can do all the treats you want, but the best way to call a dog off a rabbit or a deer is an e-collar. 

That said, if you have poor timing or if you fail to appreciate how poorly dogs generalize, or if you confuse your dog with poor signals, using an e-collar to correct when you should be TEACHING during handling can set you back more than it can help. If it is your first time training handling and you're doing almost all the training by yourself, I'd suggest being very judicious about any e-collar pressure. You make a lot of mistakes on your first dog. After a lot of ill-timed and unfair e-collar corrections on my part were damaging Maple's attitude, I fell back on that old obedience rule of thumb: if you aren't sure whether a mistake was disobedience or confusion, better to assume confusion and not correct than to correct for confusion. 

Dogs don't develop a bad attitude if they understand a correction (e-collar or otherwise), but you can sure sour a dog fast if they think they're doing the right thing and they get a correction instead of being shown how to do it right. 

I use c-collar corrections during handling training more often now, but I found it very useful to leave the e-collar off for a long time while I retrained. It forced me to think more about what I was doing and, if I found myself starting to get frustrated, the walk out to my dog calmed me down. Pushing that e-collar button is too easy sometimes.


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## abradshaw71

Great advice on the e-collar and for the reference material and links. Thank you to everyone!


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## Alaska7133

And a couple more titles that are very rare: DC Dual Champion (usually conformation and field trial) and TC Triple Champion (usually conformation, obedience and field trial). 

Other titles you've seen are: WC and WCX and WCI. Working Certificates are given by the breed club and not the AKC or CKC. So the GRCA gives a WC title. These are offered by flat coat retriever, golden retriever, Nova Scotia duck tolling retriever and I think Labrador retriever clubs. Here's a link to the WC information at the GRCA website: GRCA WC/WCX Video This is a DVD you can purchase for $8 if you are not a member, it's free if you are a member. It will walk you through the rules and how everything comes together for a WC. It's a good place to start. There is an excellent section on www.grca.org for field information for golden retrievers.


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## coaraujo

I'm just getting started in hunt and field now . The first thing I did was contact my breeder for references. She was able to get me in contact with a trainer in my area and I started up classes. I also joined one of the local GRC in my area that has a really active field program. I attended some field sessions as a guest last fall to see what it was all about, volunteer and meet the members. I also went and watched the clubs WC/WCX test. After that I was hooked. You see the joy on these dogs faces and you just have to get out there and do it with your dog. I'll be training every weekend (or however often sessions are held), weather permitting, with the club this year. The reason I got interested in hunt and field was because a few generations back in Oliver's pedigree he's got some pretty impressive field dogs. I'd like to see if those genes got carried down. We'll be taking the WC test this fall (it actually falls on Oliver's 2nd birthday  )


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## goldlover68

abradshaw71 said:


> Great advice on the e-collar and for the reference material and links. Thank you to everyone!



Just one more comment on e-collars and also pinch collars....these are training tools. My opinion is that if you are properly trained on using these tools, they enhance the training experience for both the dog and trainer. Used by untrained hands they are dangerous and can harm the behavior of a dog permanently.

Field trainers commonly use these tools....a few do not. I have seen very well trained dogs that were trained without these tools....but they are rare in the competitive world of field trained retrievers and these trainers are very hard to find, as their are few of them. 

Good luck and have fun.....


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## hollyk

Winter is my first dog. When I got her I simply wanted a well mannered pet, so we went to puppy class. I loved training with her so we kept taking classes. I ended up in the obedience class of the gal who started the local HRC club, she urged me to give field a try. On Winter's 1st birthday we showed up at a HRC training day. That day it was pretty clear that Winter was wired to play the game. Six months later I was mentored through FF and CC. About 7 months after that I started day training with a Pro a couple times a month. Winter has her WCX, SH and HRCH. We will run Master this summer.

I remember thinking teaching a dog to handle would be amazing. 
Turns out it is.


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## abradshaw71

In reading through the posts, it seems like most of you got started in hunt/field because you happened to be in the right place at the right time and met someone who was a trainer or knew someone who was. I know no one. 

So, my question is, what do I look for in a trainer? Will I have to send Josie away with the training for a length of time if I think this is something she can do? I would rather not do that if I don't have to. What is the average cost for training? Do they run 6 - 8 weeks or by month, etc?

Sorry for all of the questions. I've found a few retriever trainers online near my area but I have no idea what I should be looking for on their websites. 

The other question is, has anyone trained their own dog as newbie?


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## Golden Gibby

"The other question is, has anyone trained their own dog as newbie? "

Yes, currently I am training Gibby and he is my first dog to try and train.
I do go to a trainer from time to time for guidance, but not as often now as when I first got started. 
My suggestion would be to find some sort of a training club and get with others to train with. You will probably be able to get some trainer recomendations there.
I see you are from Michigan, there are several retriever training clubs there.
Marshbanks Golden retriever club, Fort Detroit Golden retriever club, Michigan Flyways, Kalamazoo Hunting Retriever Club, Great Lakes HRC.

I'm sure there are more those are just a few I'm familar with.


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## Vhuynh2

abradshaw71 said:


> In reading through the posts, it seems like most of you got started in hunt/field because you happened to be in the right place at the right time and met someone who was a trainer or knew someone who was. I know no one.
> 
> So, my question is, what do I look for in a trainer? Will I have to send Josie away with the training for a length of time if I think this is something she can do? I would rather not do that if I don't have to. What is the average cost for training? Do they run 6 - 8 weeks or by month, etc?
> 
> Sorry for all of the questions. I've found a few retriever trainers online near my area but I have no idea what I should be looking for on their websites.
> 
> The other question is, has anyone trained their own dog as newbie?


Molly is my first dog, so I'm definitely a newbie! You do not need to send your dog away if you don't want to.. I would never send Molly away. Another dog with a different personality, I *MIGHT* consider it (although not likely), but not Molly. Plus, training your dog is a great way to bond. Why would I let someone else do it?


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## coaraujo

Not sure what your comfort level is (your previous post about ecollars made me wonder) or your access to a trainer who collar conditions but if your more apt to go a positive route one of the trainers I follow is Lindsay Ridgeway. Hes very active on the positive gun dog yahoo group and has a plethora of youtube videos available to watch. This post has links to his youtube videos and talks about his accomplishments with his dog Laddie. http://lumi-laddie-test-series.blogspot.com/2014/03/laddie-post-at-hunting-retriever-stud.html

Im very fortunate to have a trainer and club with an active field group but im the only positive trainer so that does set up some obstacles . Definitely cant send Oliver away (not that I personally could handle being away from him anyways). I also think that the reason I enjoy fieldwork so much is because of the bond and relationship with the dog. I want to get that through attempting to train my dog, not sending him/her away. When looking for a trainer I think its really important to find a trainer who respects your training philosophies and comfort level and also who has multiple tools in their tool box. Something that I really like about my trainer is if one thing doesn't work, he's ready to try something else. He realizes all dogs are different so one method doesn't necessarily work for all dogs. 

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## K9-Design

abradshaw71 said:


> The other question is, has anyone trained their own dog as newbie?


Of course! There's a first time for everything. We were all there once


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## Alaska7133

I think maybe you might want to figure out how to define a pro. Pros can't judge hunt tests or field trials. They can't compete in amateur category field trials. Pros are paid for their time. Every pro charges a different rate. You can either send your dog off to a pro to be trained or as in Holly's case, she goes off to work with the pro a couple times a month. Then there are people that enjoy what they do and are very knowledgeable and willing to help you. As long as they don't take money they maintain their amateur status. I think a lot of us know those people. You'll find them at your local club. Sometimes you'll find them teaching classes. This is an important time of the year to contact those clubs and find a class to join. Wherever you join or spend time, remember show up early, help set up, help carry buckets of birds, offer any assistance, learn to throw well, and help tear down at the end of the day. Once you get to know some people you can set up training groups to meet up with. Personally I don't train with a pro. I train with an amateur that has a ton of experience. Good luck, many like me are still newbies!


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## PalouseDogs

No way would I ever send my dog away to a trainer. Nothing wrong with it, if the owner feels it's the best way to go for their situation, but I didn't get a dog so I could pay someone else to be with the dog. I went to a trainer for a few private lessons because I was really uncertain about using an ecollar, but I was always the handler. 

My attitude is, every one has a "first dog" in whatever they train. If you train the dog yourself, even with a good trainer helping, you WILL make a few thousand mistakes. A few million, if you are mostly without help. But, if you don't try to train this one, you won't have learned anything and your next dog will be your "first dog." Just don't blame the dog for your screw-ups. Dogs are very resilient, as long as you are fair to them. 

Best bet is to find a club, but, before you take anyone's advice, watch how they interact with their dogs, and watch how their dogs do. 

In the meantime, while you're looking around for training buddies or clubs, get a couple of bumpers, and maybe a couple of dokkens (fake foam-bodied birds), a whistle, a willing friend, and start throwing marks. Hard to go wrong with marks. For a beginning dog, don't worry about steadiness. Hold the dog's collar, have the throwing say "heh heh" and swing the bumper to get the dog's attention, and then let the dog get the bumper. Don't worry about delivery to hand, but if the dog plays keep away, put a rope on him so you can reel him in. 

Start with short marks (20 or 30 yards) on mowed grass. (White bumpers or pale dokkens.) Progress to longer marks on mowed grass. Mix in short marks in moderate cover (taller grass), then medium marks in moderate cover, short marks in heavy cover, etc. 

You'll have a whole lot of other things to deal with, like finding water to train in, land to train in, introduction to real birds, where in world the get real birds, force fetch, introduction to gun shots, beginning handling for blinds, whether to use an e-collar, how to properly use an e-collar if you decide to use one, getting the dog to come out of water without dropping the bumper, doubles, triples, etc., etc. Don't think about all that all at once. Just get started and tackle each challenge in turn. 

A book I really liked as a beginner was James Spence's Training Retrievers for Marsh and Meadow, or something like that. His training methods are dated, he doesn't use an ecollar, but nothing he advises is likely to screw up your dog and he's very fair to the dog. Start collecting videos. Hillman's puppy training videos (your dog is essentially a puppy with respect to retriever training right now) is a great start. Take a deep breath and plunge into Mike Lardy's Total Retriever Training, and Dennis Voigt's Training Retrievers Alone. 

Good luck!


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## AmberSunrise

Just want to chime in  The golden club has a few positive trainers and one of the club mentors trained at least 1 MH using positive methods with a naked dog  so she is aware of the additional complexities that need to be addressed and has worked through them. 

I was not going to respond to this thread, but since I responded as above:

I got involved when my Faelan's breeder requested I do field work with him since he has a fairly strong field background. I searched for a trainer whose methods I could either be comfortable with or whose methods I could adapt. Faelan thrives in hunt work, I do not so he has his JH but will most likely go no further. 

Teacher has an amazing background and skill set and will always adapt to not only your philosophy but your dogs' temperament - we are very lucky for the active clubs around us and teacher.




coaraujo said:


> Im very fortunate to have a trainer and club with an active field group but im the only positive trainer so that does set up some obstacles . Definitely cant send Oliver away (not that I personally could handle being away from him anyways). I also think that the reason I enjoy fieldwork so much is because of the bond and relationship with the dog. I want to get that through attempting to train my dog, not sending him/her away. When looking for a trainer I think its really important to find a trainer who respects your training philosophies and comfort level and also who has multiple tools in their tool box. Something that I really like about my trainer is if one thing doesn't work, he's ready to try something else. He realizes all dogs are different so one method doesn't necessarily work for all dogs.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## coaraujo

Sunrise said:


> Just want to chime in  The golden club has a few positive trainers and one of the club mentors trained at least 1 MH using positive methods with a naked dog  so she is aware of the additional complexities that need to be addressed and has worked through them.
> 
> I was not going to respond to this thread, but since I responded as above:
> 
> I got involved when my Faelan's breeder requested I do field work with him since he has a fairly strong field background. I searched for a trainer whose methods I could either be comfortable with or whose methods I could adapt. Faelan thrives in hunt work, I do not so he has his JH but will most likely go no further.
> 
> Teacher has an amazing background and skill set and will always adapt to not only your philosophy but your dogs' temperament - we are very lucky for the active clubs around us and teacher.


Well dont I feel awfully silly now, I had no idea that there was anyone else besides you that trained positively in field. Thank you for correcting me!

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## abradshaw71

Vhuynh2 said:


> Molly is my first dog, so I'm definitely a newbie! You do not need to send your dog away if you don't want to.. I would never send Molly away. Another dog with a different personality, I *MIGHT* consider it (although not likely), but not Molly. Plus, training your dog is a great way to bond. Why would I let someone else do it?


I feel the same about Josie. I just don't think she would do well being away from me, and in all honesty, I wouldn't do well, either.  I would have to know this person very, very well for me to be comfortable with it. I'm talking like I've known this person since birth and I've been to their house every single day kind of well.


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## AmberSunrise

I apologize if I made you feel silly, I did not mean to. I meant to be helpful.



coaraujo said:


> Well dont I feel awfully silly now, I had no idea that there was anyone else besides you that trained positively in field. Thank you for correcting me!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## abradshaw71

I really appreciate all of this information. I see my weekend being spent looking up literature, searching for clubs, emailing people to introduce myself, watching lots of videos, and coming up with a plan for me and Josie.

Trust me, if the people in Michigan are as kind and genuine as all of you that have posted on this thread, this is going to be a wonderful experience!

Josie is great with water retrieval. I grew up on a lake in northern Michigan and my parents are still there. She loves the water and my dad is constantly throwing her retrieving bumper for her. She'll go after anything when she knows she can get wet.  About a mile from my parents, my cousins have 40 acres of fields, woods, and ponds. We do our skeet shooting there and I have full access to their property. I'm thinking this will be a perfect place to start working with Josie. I also have some frozen pheasant wings from my hunt last October which I think will come in handy for training.

Thank you for the information about the e-collar as well. I'm going to try the positive training approach first, but will also consider the e-collar if needed, which most likely with Josie, it probably will.  Just so everyone knows, I'm the type to blame myself first. Josie is first and foremost my companion. If she excels at this, I will jump for joy, but if this turns out to not be her thing, then we'll just do what she enjoys to do. I'm not going to push her into doing something just because I want her to do it. She has no field bloodlines in her background, so I'm just going to get out there and see what she is interested in. For me, it is more about spending quality time with her and being out in the great outdoors. 

At the very least, I would like to get involved with a club and I appreciate Stacey's advice in volunteering and helping at events. That is great advice!

Josie is currently locked on a squirrel at the bird feeder. Any of your goldens professional squirrel hunters? 

Again, thank you everyone for your input. It is so valuable.

Allison


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## PalouseDogs

Oh my gosh, I am jealous. Relatives with land AND water? You are MILES ahead of most beginners already. Access to water and land is, by far, the biggest obstacle to retriever training that most people encounter. 

AND, your dog has already demonstrated she loves to retrieve in water. You're practically ready to enter Junior. Well, not really, but you're well on your way. 

If your dog is only getting hand thrown bumpers with the thrower next to the dog, she is getting used to retrieving short distances. Your next step is to separate thrower and handler (and/or teach the dog to sit/stay while you walk out to throw). Gradually increase the retrieve distance (over many training sessions, not all in one day), until she will retrieve out to at least 150 yards on land and 100 yards in water. Remember that the longer the retrieves, the fewer you should do in a session, especially in water. Mix up long and short retrieves so she doesn't assume all retrieves will be of a certain length.

From her picture, she looks like a field line dog. She will probably LOVE hunt training.


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## hotel4dogs

I wouldn't be at all surprised if you found out that it is her VERY VERY favorite thing in the whole world!




abradshaw71 said:


> I really appreciate all of this information. I see my weekend being spent looking up literature, searching for clubs, emailing people to introduce myself, watching lots of videos, and coming up with a plan for me and Josie.
> 
> Trust me, if the people in Michigan are as kind and genuine as all of you that have posted on this thread, this is going to be a wonderful experience!
> 
> Josie is great with water retrieval. I grew up on a lake in northern Michigan and my parents are still there. She loves the water and my dad is constantly throwing her retrieving bumper for her. She'll go after anything when she knows she can get wet.  About a mile from my parents, my cousins have 40 acres of fields, woods, and ponds. We do our skeet shooting there and I have full access to their property. I'm thinking this will be a perfect place to start working with Josie. I also have some frozen pheasant wings from my hunt last October which I think will come in handy for training.
> 
> Thank you for the information about the e-collar as well. I'm going to try the positive training approach first, but will also consider the e-collar if needed, which most likely with Josie, it probably will.  Just so everyone knows, I'm the type to blame myself first. Josie is first and foremost my companion. If she excels at this, I will jump for joy, but if this turns out to not be her thing, then we'll just do what she enjoys to do. I'm not going to push her into doing something just because I want her to do it. She has no field bloodlines in her background, so I'm just going to get out there and see what she is interested in. For me, it is more about spending quality time with her and being out in the great outdoors.
> 
> At the very least, I would like to get involved with a club and I appreciate Stacey's advice in volunteering and helping at events. That is great advice!
> 
> Josie is currently locked on a squirrel at the bird feeder. Any of your goldens professional squirrel hunters?
> 
> Again, thank you everyone for your input. It is so valuable.
> 
> Allison


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## nolefan

Seriously, you are a big luck duck! What a great opportunity to have access to family land. How far is it from where you live now?

I am also new to field training and my Ellie LOVES it. I wanted to add that obedience is an important aspect of field training. If it takes you awhile to find someone who can take you under their wing a bit, use that time to really work on some of the obedience skills needed. It will make the first few times out training with other people more fun and less stressful if Josie will listen to you and has some self restraint. Keep us posted, I love hearing that I'm not the only new one trying to do this myself


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## abradshaw71

I knew having such a big family would come in handy some day!  The lake access at my parent's house is perfect. They have a 20 foot dock and a small beach area. Josie can enter the water either from jumping off the dock or going in from shore. It's a great place for a retriever to learn water basics. My cousins that have the 40 acres also live on the same lake, but just at the other end of the lake. They have a 40 foot dock with beach access and then the 40 acres sits behind their house. They are all 1 1/2 hours away from where I live, so not far at all. I'm up there at least once a month and typically more than that in the summer time. The town is Ludington, Michigan. It's a great small town on Lake Michigan. My parents live about 7 miles inland from Lake Michigan. Perfect place to grow up and even better in the summer. 

My dad will be my co-partner in all of this. He is more than willing to help me with the throwing aspect of it. 

One more question...sorry for all of them.  Do any of you trim your golden's hair to keep it from getting burrs, matting, etc? Josie has very long hair on her belly, tail, and well, all over. My previous two goldens didn't have such long fur, but Josie's is so long. I won't shave her, but just wondering what everyone does to keep their golden looking good after a day out in the field.


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## abradshaw71

nolefan said:


> Seriously, you are a big luck duck! What a great opportunity to have access to family land. How far is it from where you live now?
> 
> I am also new to field training and my Ellie LOVES it. I wanted to add that obedience is an important aspect of field training. If it takes you awhile to find someone who can take you under their wing a bit, use that time to really work on some of the obedience skills needed. It will make the first few times out training with other people more fun and less stressful if Josie will listen to you and has some self restraint. Keep us posted, I love hearing that I'm not the only new one trying to do this myself


Thanks! Josie and I definitely need to nail down some of the obedience basics. Stay is the hardest one for her and she has a some difficulty with "drop" as well. She would much rather play keep away!  She needs a little discipline there, so I know working with a long rope will be helpful in this area.


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## Alaska7133

I would trim her. Fur always grows back. I've done it many for mine. I used to use electric trimmers, but now I use thinning shears.


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## abradshaw71

Alaska7133 said:


> I would trim her. Fur always grows back. I've done it many for mine. I used to use electric trimmers, but now I use thinning shears.


So, I was the kid in junior high that "accidentally" cut off all of my bangs two days before school pictures. As I tried to explain to my mom, they were long and I was just trying to take a little of them off.  

I better take Josie to a groomer and have her trimmed instead of me doing it.  Josie has unusually long hair around her paws that need to be trimmed every two months, so I'll just have some taken off beneath her belly and some on her tail and feathers.


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## Vhuynh2

abradshaw71 said:


> So, I was the kid in junior high that "accidentally" cut off all of my bangs two days before school pictures. As I tried to explain to my mom, they were long and I was just trying to take a little of them off.
> 
> 
> 
> I better take Josie to a groomer and have her trimmed instead of me doing it.  Josie has unusually long hair around her paws that need to be trimmed every two months, so I'll just have some taken off beneath her belly and some on her tail and feathers.



When I was a young child, I somehow got gum in my bangs. I cut around the wad of gum and ended up with a gaping hole in the middle. I was too young to care.. But that's another reason not to have scissors laying around when you have kids. 


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## K9-Design

Just a clarification, Stacey I don't believe that it's a rule that pros cannot judge a hunt test. I can think of many off the top of my head that are pros and have judged recently. Mitch White, Sean & Renee Hager, etc.


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## Alaska7133

I'm sorry I should have said field trials, not both.


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## abradshaw71

Golden Gibby said:


> "The other question is, has anyone trained their own dog as newbie? "
> 
> Yes, currently I am training Gibby and he is my first dog to try and train.
> I do go to a trainer from time to time for guidance, but not as often now as when I first got started.
> My suggestion would be to find some sort of a training club and get with others to train with. You will probably be able to get some trainer recomendations there.
> I see you are from Michigan, there are several retriever training clubs there.
> Marshbanks Golden retriever club, Fort Detroit Golden retriever club, Michigan Flyways, Kalamazoo Hunting Retriever Club, Great Lakes HRC.
> 
> I'm sure there are more those are just a few I'm familar with.


Thank you so much for your Michigan club suggestions. I reached out to Great Lakes HRC last night and got a fantastic response this morning from their president. Best part is, he owns goldens, too.


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## abradshaw71

Oh boy...I think I'm on my way to getting sucked in to this fantastic world of field and hunt. After checking the websites that Golden Gibby suggested for Michigan clubs and getting some incredibly helpful advice from Maxs Mom who is also in Michigan, I reached out to the president at Great Lakes HRC. I received a wonderful email from him this morning and he is the proud owner of two golden retrievers. I was so excited to read that as it seems like the majority of members in these clubs own labs. That's not a bad thing as I've been around some wonderful labs in the past and have hunted with them, but I was hoping to find some members with goldens too! The club is only 20 minutes from my house. 

I've been invited to their upland test this weekend and I'll be able to go. So, some questions for all of you that have already done this. First, is it okay to bring Josie with me even if she won't be participating, or should I leave her at home so I can soak it all in? Josie could be a little crazy being around that many people and dogs and I don't want her to be a distraction. Second, what should I wear? I know this may sound silly, but I know this came up in an earlier post. Warm coat, jeans, and boots? Third, what should I bring with me? Chair, water, food, etc? Fourth, how long do these tests usually last? 

I think that's it for now. 

Allison


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## Golden Gibby

Upland tests are fun. Wear whatever you need to keep warm, maybe take some hunter orange just in case you need it. As for taking Josie, if she hasn't been exposed to gunfire I would leave her home. If she is ok with gunfire then take her along, if she gets too excited you could put her in the car or truck. Probably figure on at least 5-6 hrs. Chair and something to eat are usually good to have just in case you need them.
I'm guessing Chad Miller is who you got the email from with Great Lakes HRC, he is a great guy, tell him 
Chuck & Gibby say hi.


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## abradshaw71

Golden Gibby said:


> Upland tests are fun. Wear whatever you need to keep warm, maybe take some hunter orange just in case you need it. As for taking Josie, if she hasn't been exposed to gunfire I would leave her home. If she is ok with gunfire then take her along, if she gets too excited you could put her in the car or truck. Probably figure on at least 5-6 hrs. Chair and something to eat are usually good to have just in case you need them.
> I'm guessing Chad Miller is who you got the email from with Great Lakes HRC, he is a great guy, tell him
> Chuck & Gibby say hi.


Other than fireworks and thunder, Josie has never been exposed to gunfire, but does just fine with the others. Thank you for thinking of that. I'll plan on leaving her home as I know that initial time of being around a gun needs to be done correctly.

Yes, it was Chad that I heard from. I'll make sure to pass along your greetings.


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## Alaska7133

In the future for events or training plan on crating your dog while in the car. Even my show puppy will eat the inside of my SUV while waiting to fetch birds. They can be super destructive while waiting.


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## abradshaw71

Alaska7133 said:


> In the future for events or training plan on crating your dog while in the car. Even my show puppy will eat the inside of my SUV while waiting to fetch birds. They can be super destructive while waiting.


Thanks for the info. I always keep a crate in my SUV and that is what Josie rides in when we travel, so that won't be a problem.


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## FTGoldens

Hey Alaska 7133,
Thanks for the great thread topic! I am totally enjoying the numerous replies, showing how it is often the dogs that lead their owners into the field. And, not surprisingly, that the owners discover that their dogs thrive on the field work ... doing what their genes tell them they should be doing.
Another thing that I've noticed, there have been a bunch of different ways that folks started training ... I think that's a key point!
Heck, I started with Water Dog! If that's what you've got to go by, JUST DO IT! Sure, there may be resources that are newer, applying more "modern" techniques (not just in equipment, but also in training theories and philosophy), but the KEY POINT is to not be afraid of starting the training. That can be a big hurdle ... just getting started. Folks should not get too hung up on what "program" to use (I loathe the use of the word "program" when talking about training retrievers ... it sounds too regimented; make the training fit the dog, not the dog fit the program).
At it's basic levels, it's NOT rocket science. Apply some logic, teach in baby steps, and soon the dog will be making retrieves that didn't seem possible. 
Anyway, thanks again!
FTGoldens


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## Alaska7133

FT,
I was hoping you could give some pointers on how to get past the junior hunt test stage. I think that's a big point where a lot of people get stuck. You see lots of dogs with JH titles and nothing else except maybe a WC. So what do you see that people need to do to get the next higher title? Is this the point where you need a pro or can a club help you? Or do you turn to DVD's? Or something I'm missing?

I was poking around at my Lucy's pedigree (you can click on her name to go to it). I could only find JH and WC going back many generations. I went back 5 generations and found 3 WCX and 1 SH title. That's it. So think in terms of dogs like mine with very little field trial pedigree. I think I went back 7 generations and found a dog that ran a couple of field trials, but that was way back. I think most of us on here are in the same boat, dogs without field trial pedigrees.


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## coaraujo

Alaska7133 said:


> FT,
> I was hoping you could give some pointers on how to get past the junior hunt test stage. I think that's a big point where a lot of people get stuck. You see lots of dogs with JH titles and nothing else except maybe a WC. So what do you see that people need to do to get the next higher title? Is this the point where you need a pro or can a club help you? Or do you turn to DVD's? Or something I'm missing?
> 
> I was poking around at my Lucy's pedigree (you can click on her name to go to it). I could only find JH and WC going back many generations. I went back 5 generations and found 3 WCX and 1 SH title. That's it. So think in terms of dogs like mine with very little field trial pedigree. I think I went back 7 generations and found a dog that ran a couple of field trials, but that was way back. I think most of us on here are in the same boat, dogs without field trial pedigrees.


This is a really interesting question (and I look forward to the answer!). Is there a big difference between the JH and SH level test? Do you believe it has more to do with the handler or the dog when it comes to being able to accomplish this field title? Sometimes I wonder how far we will be able to go because of that fact that I'm so new to all of this - I hope I don't hold Oliver back too much


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## Vhuynh2

My pro said he is most proud when he puts a Senior title on a dog. He said Master is like a really cleaned up Senior dog, but the skills were taught in Senior. 

I'm guessing many people think teaching how to handle is too much work. Marks are easy -- the dog instinctively knows what to do. Not so much with handling. Over the past couple of months I have been tempted to throw down the towel on handling and just not go past junior, or even just send Molly away and let someone else do it (which I would realistically never do, but the thought was there!). Neither options would be fair to Molly. I just can't see right now how the pieces will all fit together, or if they even will. And since I don't really enjoy teaching how to handle, I've gotten lazy about it.. So.. It's going to take us a while. I can totally see somebody like me not making it past junior. 


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## coaraujo

Vhuynh2 said:


> My pro said he is most proud when he puts a Senior title on a dog. He said Master is like a really cleaned up Senior dog, but the skills were taught in Senior.
> 
> I'm guessing many people think teaching how to handle is too much work. Marks are easy -- the dog instinctively knows what to do. Not so much with handling. Over the past couple of months I have been tempted to throw down the towel on handling and just not go past junior, or even just send Molly away and let someone else do it (which I would realistically never do, but the thought was there!). Neither options would be fair to Molly. I just can't see right now how the pieces will all fit together, or if they even will. And since I don't really enjoy teaching how to handle, I've gotten lazy about it.. So.. It's going to take us a while. I can totally see somebody like me not making it past junior.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


Why is teaching how to handle so difficult? What aspects of handling are difficult to train. All I know about handling really right now is over and back and whistle sits .


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## Vhuynh2

coaraujo said:


> Why is teaching how to handle so difficult? What aspects of handling are difficult to train. All I know about handling really right now is over and back and whistle sits .


Different dogs will have different problems. Molly does not have a whole lot of confidence. She is very sensitive and I think she considers the whistle sit as a correction, and she hates to be wrong. Things are a lot better now that I have decided to quit doing the drills. She was popping a lot (automatically stopping) and not going with momentum. She is doing well with her memory blinds, which I think is building her confidence. I just don't know how I will ever get her to the point of doing cold blinds. So maybe it's not really the handling that's my worry, but will she ever get that confidence to look out at the horizon at "dead bird" and take a straight line until I stop her? Or will she turn around and "ask" me for help every 50 yards? Right now the popping issue is 95% resolved, but the distances are not that far. 

My pro has taught me how to build her confidence for the "dead bird/back" command.. So things are actually looking up! I don't want to quit anymore. 


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## coaraujo

Vhuynh2 said:


> Different dogs will have different problems. Molly does not have a whole lot of confidence. She is very sensitive and I think she considers the whistle sit as a correction, and she hates to be wrong. Things are a lot better now that I have decided to quit doing the drills. She was popping a lot (automatically stopping) and not going with momentum. She is doing well with her memory blinds, which I think is building her confidence. I just don't know how I will ever get her to the point of doing cold blinds. So maybe it's not really the handling that's my worry, but will she ever get that confidence to look out at the horizon at "dead bird" and take a straight line until I stop her? Or will she turn around and "ask" me for help every 50 yards? Right now the popping issue is 95% resolved, but the distances are not that far.
> 
> My pro has taught me how to build her confidence for the "dead bird/back" command.. So things are actually looking up! I don't want to quit anymore.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


I have no idea if you did drills like this already, but this seemed like a game-like drill. Maybe this would make whistle sits more fun for Molly and less like a correction. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bMYthIpSD4

I think I understand what you mean. My trainer talked about how his dogs start running faster and faster when they don't hear the whistle because they know they're running in the right direction. What you're saying is Molly seems to think to herself "I don't hear a whistle, but am I sure this is the right way to go?"


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## Alaska7133

I found the video a bit hard to watch. It was jumpy and too close to really give you a feel for what he was doing. It would have been nice to have some written information about what he was training for.

There are tons of drills. I have a very small brain for drills. So I stick to force to pile, baseball and 3 handed casting. It would be nice if Lucy and I figured out how to stop on a whistle.

But it does seem like owners stall out at Junior hunt titles and working certificates.


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## Vhuynh2

coaraujo said:


> I have no idea if you did drills like this already, but this seemed like a game-like drill. Maybe this would make whistle sits more fun for Molly and less like a correction.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bMYthIpSD4
> 
> 
> 
> I think I understand what you mean. My trainer talked about how his dogs start running faster and faster when they don't hear the whistle because they know they're running in the right direction. What you're saying is Molly seems to think to herself "I don't hear a whistle, but am I sure this is the right way to go?"



I can't watch the video right now but I'll check it out. Thanks! Since I know Molly has a whistle sit, I thought it was best to stop reinforcing it in drills, since that was slowing her down and it wasn't helping her. Pro said she has proved she can sit and take casts, so I can take a break from the drills. 

That is exactly what I think Molly is thinking. She doesn't go faster as she goes out, but slows down. It's like in obedience, if I don't talk to her and tell her she's doing a good job, she thinks she's wrong. 

I think a lot of my worries stemmed from the fact that I wasn't getting a lot of guidance. Training with a new pro is helping *me* gain confidence. 


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## coaraujo

Alaska7133 said:


> I found the video a bit hard to watch. It was jumpy and too close to really give you a feel for what he was doing. It would have been nice to have some written information about what he was training for.
> 
> There are tons of drills. I have a very small brain for drills. So I stick to force to pile, baseball and 3 handed casting. It would be nice if Lucy and I figured out how to stop on a whistle.
> 
> But it does seem like owners stall out at Junior hunt titles and working certificates.


I'll have to ask him more about it. From what I saw and took from it, it kind of looked like he would send the dog away and then when it got to a flag ask for a whistle sit, then call the dog in and reward. Then send back out to another flag, do a whistle sit. The drill was called "Pinball" so the dog kind of got pinballed from flag to flag. *I think* That's what I got from it. The biggest thing I took away, was that the dog clearly enjoyed the drill and I know a lot of the time handling drills can get boring or old so I liked the idea of this looking like a game to the dog. I'm not sure if this is a common drill or something he made up. Anyone else know?


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## K9-Design

Vhuynh2 said:


> Different dogs will have different problems. Molly does not have a whole lot of confidence. She is very sensitive and I think she considers the whistle sit as a correction, and she hates to be wrong. Things are a lot better now that I have decided to quit doing the drills. She was popping a lot (automatically stopping) and not going with momentum. *She is doing well with her memory blinds, which I think is building her confidence.* I just don't know how I will ever get her to the point of doing cold blinds. So maybe it's not really the handling that's my worry, but will she ever get that confidence to look out at the horizon at "dead bird" and take a straight line until I stop her? Or will she turn around and "ask" me for help every 50 yards? Right now the popping issue is 95% resolved, but the distances are not that far.
> 
> My pro has taught me how to build her confidence for the "dead bird/back" command.. So things are actually looking up! I don't want to quit anymore.


Just remember that dogs are not good generalizers. Dogs get good at exactly what you practice. Building confidence on memory blinds helps the dog do just that : be confident on memory blinds. It will do little to no good for cold blinds. Not sure if Molly is running cold blinds or not, but once you are on to cold blinds it is usually more productive to help the dog be more successful on cold blinds and abandon the crutch of memory or marked blinds. Running cold blinds builds success on cold blinds...and no drill or pattern blind can replace that. 
If the dog has not graduated onto cold blinds and is having confidence/popping/momentum problems on your pattern blinds, I think your force work is incomplete and/or you've rushed her into pattern blinds when she does not fully understand the components of go-stop-come-change direction that are learned on the T field. 
I do not do memory blinds or sight blinds, beyond what is required on the pattern blind step of the Lardy flowchart. Once we are through with that I abandon our pattern blinds. 
As for momentum on cold blinds -- I am a BIG FAN of setting up 2-4 VERY LONG blinds on a flat, relatively featureless field. Blinds 200+ yards long, fanning out from a single sending point. The blinds have no relation to each other and the land offers little suction. What is does teach the dog is to look out to the horizon, and run!!!! It is a huge attitude builder. They love it. I typically use a visible stake at the end of the blind so when the dog gets close they see it, I HATE boxing a dog around a blind. I run series of blinds like this at least once a month with my guys and they love it. You hopefully can get them to line them or only need 2-5 whistles. Let them run on slightly off casts for long distances so they build momentum on casts. This is not for precision especially with young dogs. 
Best of luck!!!!
People don't make the jump from Junior to Senior because this sh*t's hard!!!! All you do in Junior is let go of a dog's collar and he does the rest!


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## MillionsofPeaches

It is sh*t hard!!! We are starting cold blinds now and I just want to pull my hair out sometimes. Thanks for the advice, Anney.


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## FTGoldens

Alaska7133 said:


> FT,
> I was hoping you could give some pointers on how to get past the junior hunt test stage. I think that's a big point where a lot of people get stuck. You see lots of dogs with JH titles and nothing else except maybe a WC. So what do you see that people need to do to get the next higher title? Is this the point where you need a pro or can a club help you? Or do you turn to DVD's? Or something I'm missing?


As K9-Design said, the higher you go, the harder it gets. But, and this is big: THE REWARDS GET GREATER! 
One of mental barriers to the owner-trainer moving forward is that the signs of progress don't come as often. We all enjoy seeing our dogs improve their skills by leaps and bounds when they start out ... like stretching them out on marks from 25 yards to 100 yards. Reaching those early goals is not only easier, but also you hit new milestones on a fairly frequent basis. When you move up in difficulty, whether marks or blinds, whether teaching retired guns or poison birds, it will take weeks, maybe months, in some cases years, to get Poochie to understand what is going on. It can get discouraging ... particularly when Poochie was hitting new milestones every day, or week, or month, just a few concepts ago. And just because Poochie isn't reaching new milestones on a regular basis doesn't necessarily mean that you aren't training properly (although that could be the case), some of this stuff just takes time to teach/learn. So, to answer your question about what it takes to move up ... mainly, perseverance and attitude.
As for the tools needed to get there, folks should use all that they can get their hands/eyes on. The best "tool" is an experienced AND PROVEN SUCCESSFUL training group or mentor, preferably an amateur. The amateur is more likely to give you the time to explain the whys and whats more than a pro, who has to get an entire truckload of dogs run on a setup before lunchtime/dinnertime. Also, the amateur will eventually let the new trainer help design and set up training tests ... which is extremely helpful in understanding how factors influence a dog's performance. Next best would be training with a pro ... and ask questions. And of course, DVDs and books add to one's knowledge foundation. 
Just my thoughts.
FTGoldens

(I'll probably add to this, but I've got to go for now.)


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## K9-Design

Great post FT and I also think a big reason people stall out after JH/WCX is that the training progression for teaching a dog to run cold blinds is neither intuitive nor linear. Many people do not realize there IS a formula already out there that is tried, true and works. They do not have to reinvent the wheel. However even if you follow it to a "T" -- the steps are not obvious in their purpose and it can be difficult to see the forest through the trees.


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## Loisiana

After years of wanting to do field with my dogs and having trouble finding people to train with, I finally just bit the bullet last year and entered Flip in WC and junior. So he has a WC and one JH leg. A year later and I just got around to entering him for a second test next month. I realized the only skill I really taught him was to deliver the bird to hand. Everything else is just about hanging on until the judge says "dog." Which I think is why I'm not really in any rush to finish the title: while it's fun to let him do, it's not really proving any great training or partnership or anything. I'd love to earn SH, but unless my circumstances change, I don't see us getting in the training it would require.


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## Alaska7133

Loisiana,
That was exactly my point of this thread. How did you get started and how far have you come? The big thing is getting started, the next big thing is getting beyond JH/WCX. Marks are easy and fun to watch the dog do what they love to do. But the next step is tough! 

I do encourage everyone to at least get out and watch a senior level or above hunt test, or get out there and watch a field trial. See what the next level looks like. To find AKC or HRC events in your area go to www.entryexpress.com You will have to create a sign on and password to access the information. For NAHRA events mostly they are on the individual club's websites. Sorry I'm not sure where to go for Canadian field event sources.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Wow. You do not know how great it is to read these words. I really needed them today in particular. Even though I work with a pro on a daily basis he only trains me to train the dog. He doesn't train her himself with the exception of a step in. In fact, normally he gives me homework to do on my own. So this is taking FOREVER and sometimes I feel so discouraged because he can take young dogs in a few months way beyond what I could dream of doing with mine that I've been working with for a year. And I take this stuff seriously and train all the freaking time. So it is good to read that this is normal for us newbies. Thank you. 




> One of mental barriers to the owner-trainer moving forward is that the signs of progress don't come as often. We all enjoy seeing our dogs improve their skills by leaps and bounds when they start out ... like stretching them out on marks from 25 yards to 100 yards. Reaching those early goals is not only easier, but also you hit new milestones on a fairly frequent basis. When you move up in difficulty, whether marks or blinds, whether teaching retired guns or poison birds, it will take weeks, maybe months, in some cases years, to get Poochie to understand what is going on. It can get discouraging ... particularly when Poochie was hitting new milestones every day, or week, or month, just a few concepts ago. And just because Poochie isn't reaching new milestones on a regular basis doesn't necessarily mean that you aren't training properly (although that could be the case), some of this stuff just takes time to teach/learn. So, to answer your question about what it takes to move up ... mainly, perseverance and attitude./QUOTE]


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## MillionsofPeaches

oh and this weekend I took a step up on my comfort level. I haven't had any tests to run right now but I've been going with my daughter so she could run hers. I decided on Saturday I would do a started test but shoot the gun myself. This was HUGE for me as I've never even held a gun up until last summer. So I practiced all my gun safety and tested Katniss' steadiness at the line especially at water which she gets super excited. Not having to worry about passing or anything like that this gave me the opportunity to practice something I'll need to do for seasoned but not the whole kit and caboodle, ya know? 

It is something for some of you newbies like me to try out? and it also showed me that I have to get that girl on these blinds because she is so past this started level now....ggggrrrrr


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## Alaska7133

MOP,
You are doing great with your girl! She has come a long way with just your efforts. Just think about how much you have learned!


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## abradshaw71

MillionsofPeaches said:


> oh and this weekend I took a step up on my comfort level. I haven't had any tests to run right now but I've been going with my daughter so she could run hers. I decided on Saturday I would do a started test but shoot the gun myself. This was HUGE for me as I've never even held a gun up until last summer. So I practiced all my gun safety and tested Katniss' steadiness at the line especially at water which she gets super excited. Not having to worry about passing or anything like that this gave me the opportunity to practice something I'll need to do for seasoned but not the whole kit and caboodle, ya know?
> 
> It is something for some of you newbies like me to try out? and it also showed me that I have to get that girl on these blinds because she is so past this started level now....ggggrrrrr


Congratulations on shooting the gun!  The more you do it, the more comfortable it will be for you. If you can, try your hand at some skeet shooting. That is the best way to feel very comfortable with pulling a trigger.


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## MillionsofPeaches

thanks, Stacey. It is hard to remember that when most of the people around you are pros or are very advanced amateurs. I learn a ton from it and it is invaluable, but I never saw them when they were starting out so I forget they did, if that makes sense. 

Josie's owner, I thank my pro for helping me with the gun. He has me shoot for his young dogs while he runs them so that I can practice with it all the time. You are right, the more I do it the more comfortable I am. I did perfect with it on Saturday and that is because of all that exposure, lol. I was still shaking loading it, lol.


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## hollyk

I love, loved learning how to handle from the first day.
FT is right it comes together at a much slower pace, you have to build it. But on blinds we have gone from 180 head swings to steady head and maybe eye flicks left and right, from her not being able to tolerate me detailing her to no ing off marks and then running the blind. It is an amazing journey that is taken one step at a time and in the beginning it feels like two steps forward one step back. 
I do run a lot of drills and still run memory blinds. 
I think someone who knows what they are doing standing behind you is the best resource a new trainer could have. 
Here are the few things I know about teaching a dog to handle.
It's about 3 things; going, stopping, taking a cast. It is not about picking up the blind.
For the most part it is about attrition, not collar pressure. 
If your dog isn't getting it, move closer.
Remember to keep throwing marks and and all mark, no blind day occasional doesn't hurt.


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## Vhuynh2

hollyk said:


> I love, loved learning how to handle from the first day.
> FT is right it comes together at a much slower pace, you have to build it. But on blinds we have gone from 180 head swings to steady head and maybe eye flicks left and right, from her not being able to tolerate me detailing her to no ing off marks and then running the blind. It is an amazing journey that is taken one step at a time and in the beginning it feels like two steps forward one step back.
> I do run a lot of drills and still run memory blinds.
> I think someone who knows what they are doing standing behind you is the best resource a new trainer could have.
> Here are the few things I know about teaching a dog to handle.
> It's about 3 things; going, stopping, taking a cast. It is not about picking up the blind.
> For the most part it is about attrition, not collar pressure.
> If your dog isn't getting it, move closer.
> Remember to keep throwing marks and and all mark, no blind day occasional doesn't hurt.



Holly, you are a WAAYY better trainer than I will ever be. 


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## MillionsofPeaches

That was great, Holly, thank you!


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## hollyk

Vhuynh2 said:


> Holly, you are a WAAYY better trainer than I will ever be.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


Vivian, of coarse you are. I'm just 2+ years ahead of you.

Winter is my first dog, so for me I'm sure it took longer than most. But we took it slow and it was broken down into pieces I could understand and then build on.
We have had a few rough patches along the way but I was always coached to not get into a huge fight with her by myself. I would wait to work out problems when I had a training day with him and with him standing behind me things were always worked out quickly. Sometimes the answer was to back up, sometimes break it down and teach and once it was to push though it. 

I have a water blind pop issue right now. My Pro is training down south, so for the first time I'm working a problem out without him standing behind me. However, I have had detailed instruction on what to look for and what to do and feel confident that I can do it. I'm finally far enough in MY training to understand the process. I also have my two main training partners who have listened to my instructions to give me support. We all train with the same Pro so they know the approach.
Now I need it to warm up and stay warm.


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## Vhuynh2

hollyk said:


> Vivian, of coarse you are. I'm just 2+ years ahead of you.
> 
> 
> 
> Winter is my first dog, so for me I'm sure it took longer than most. But we took it slow and it was broken down into pieces I could understand and then build on.
> 
> We have had a few rough patches along the way but I was always coached to not get into a huge fight with her by myself. I would wait to work out problems when I had a training day with him and with him standing behind me things were always worked out quickly. Sometimes the answer was to back up, sometimes break it down and teach and once it was to push though it.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a water blind pop issue right now. My Pro is training down south, so for the first time I'm working a problem out without him standing behind me. However, I have had detailed instruction on what to look for and what to do and feel confident that I can do it. I'm finally far enough in MY training to understand the process. I also have my two main training partners who have listened to my instructions to give me support. We all train with the same Pro so they know the approach.
> 
> Now I need it to warm up and stay warm.



In terms of dog training, teaching blinds/handling is the hardest thing I have ever done. I am learning to read Molly better but we are both learning at the same time. When training alone sometimes it is a struggle figuring out what my next move should be. Molly needs someone who has more confidence and experience than I do. Poor girl, she is like my guinea pig.


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## coaraujo

Vhuynh2 said:


> I can't watch the video right now but I'll check it out. Thanks! Since I know Molly has a whistle sit, I thought it was best to stop reinforcing it in drills, since that was slowing her down and it wasn't helping her. Pro said she has proved she can sit and take casts, so I can take a break from the drills.
> 
> That is exactly what I think Molly is thinking. She doesn't go faster as she goes out, but slows down. It's like in obedience, if I don't talk to her and tell her she's doing a good job, she thinks she's wrong.
> 
> I think a lot of my worries stemmed from the fact that I wasn't getting a lot of guidance. Training with a new pro is helping *me* gain confidence.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Just wanted to post the blog post that describes whats going on in the video. I dont really understand it all  but maybe it will help you know the drill is something you could use or not (sorry the response is so late!)
Field Training Test Series: Pinball Drill


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## boomers_dawn

It's interesting seeing how people got started.

About 10 years ago, I came home from work, picked up the mail, and flipped through a coupon book; there was a coupon for $20 off dog skool including field obedience class. 

I had just read an article about how important it was for dogs to have jobs, and ex-bf had just come home from like the dozenth hunting excursion without taking Boomer; when we had gotten him as a puppy, ex- he said he would train him and take him hunting, but he never took him once!

I decided to do it myself, signed up for the class, and got hooked. Boomer loved it, enthusiastic, all about the FUN. We kept going to class, joined several clubs, volunteered at many events including HT, fun trials, and NAHRA. Boomer and I bumbled through everything together, got up to one SH leg, one NAHRA Hunter leg, some fun trial Quals, maybe a placement or two for singles stakes, and WCX. We passed WCX at the Golden Retreiver National Specialty, that was one of the most magical and memorable days of my life!

When Boomer turned 10 he was retired and we got Gladys - she was like a little red corvette to his trusty beloved Volvo Wagon. We got through SH, NAHRA Hunter, 4th place fun trial singles stake I think she was the youngest dog running, and WC; we'll work on MH, NAHRA Senior, and WCX. Along came Dee Dee (I think she's a mini) we'll see how far she can go, she's not as intense as Gladys but seems to have some interest, marking, and learning talent. I'm sure we can get through at least JH and probably SH if not further.

Addendum: I just wanted to add onto what other people said about the rewards of punching through transition from JH to SH. It seems numbing to keep going through the motions and never getting anywhere, but I kept going through the motions and doing the steps and the lightbulb came on bit by bit. It was exactly like (I think Holly) described, it builds on itself.

It seems like everyone wants to just know everything all at once, I used to want that too; but just like the dogs, I think we learn incrementally. 
There is no more satisfying feeling than me and Gladys picking up a blind together. The fact she likes it and wags her tail the whole time makes it all the more fun, and it's like our secret language for just us and no one else. It's hard to describe, but it's like we have a special bond that transcends words. 

One time I was worried she was getting too cranked up and wasn't going to work with me so on the way to the holding blind, I asked her to high five me and she did it!!!! That's when I knew we were good to go... and we were!


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## Erik Nilsson

I wanted a good hunting dog first before running hunt tests. so far we have achieved
UH -Upland hunter
HR-Hunting retriever
SR-Senior Hunter
WC and WCX
(he's a rescue too)


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## abradshaw71

Observed my first upland hunt test today and it was amazing...and incredibly cold. Was disappointed there were no goldens involved but all of the dogs were amazing to watch. There were 19 dogs and 16 of them were black labs. The other three were spaniels. Not sure why the black labs are so popular with this group but they were incredible. Had people there from Ohio and Wisconsin too. 

So, I'm hooked and can't wait to start training Josie! We have a long road ahead of us but it should be a fun journey. 


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## hotel4dogs

If you liked the upland hunting test, go watch an AKC Spaniel tests. As of July 2013, Goldens are eligible to enter the Spaniel (flushing) tests. They are a BLAST!


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## abradshaw71

hotel4dogs said:


> If you liked the upland hunting test, go watch an AKC Spaniel tests. As of July 2013, Goldens are eligible to enter the Spaniel (flushing) tests. They are a BLAST!


What is the best resource (website) to find where and when all of these different hunts and tests? Is there one website or do I need to check multiple pages?


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## K9-Design

I checked and the closest spaniel club that holds AKC hunt tests is 6 hours away! UGGGG!!!!


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## Alaska7133

Entryexpress.com for HT and FT in AKC and HRC. NAHRA HTs are done through the local club and don't have a centralized sign up process, although they are working on one.


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## hotel4dogs

Best place is the AKC website, under their event search. Unfortunately that brings up all the hunting tests (pointers, flushers, retrievers) but you can usually tell by the club name which type it is.

Stacey, most of the Spaniel clubs don't use Entry Express.

Anney, I KNOW you have traveled more than 6 hours for a hunt test 



abradshaw71 said:


> What is the best resource (website) to find where and when all of these different hunts and tests? Is there one website or do I need to check multiple pages?


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## K9-Design

hotel4dogs said:


> Anney, I KNOW you have traveled more than 6 hours for a hunt test


Now that is very true! But then again at those I had a vague idea of what I would be doing when I showed up 
I think it's just a factor of terrain. There's no such thing as a pheasant in Florida and our amber waves of grain to attract them are sorely lacking.


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## hotel4dogs

Hee hee nice try Annie, I KNOW you spend some time up here in the frozen North every year, where there are, in fact, pheasants. And Chukkars. And pigeons. 
Come train with us!


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## myluckypenny

This thread was really fun to read, especially since I know how much some of you have accomplished since this was posted!


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## Edward Lee Nelson

I feel I have been very blessed and lucky. I was a young 4th grader who saw a dog truck go up and down the road, so I went and asked them could I clean the kennels after school. I ended up cleaning kennels, throwing birds for them and a pro all the way through college. I threw for 3 Hall of Famers, NFC, National Derby Champ and many FC-AFCs during that time.I learned so much during that time that has shaped me today. I got my first competitive dog (LAB) in the 90's and he was a total nut. He was probably my most naturally talented dog I have ever had. He got 9 Derby points but was a creeper. In Derby's back then you could wear a collar so it wasnt that bad, but when we got to Q's he would creep a good 20 feet. It was embarrassing and a never a good situation. By the time I got it under control he got lepto at 4 and I had to put him down. After that I have a MH lab, (couldnt count well and the long retired for trials were a big issue). I then saw a ad in the Retriever News in 2004 for a nice Golden breeding. I had always liked being different so I got a Golden pup. I had always seen Goldens as fluffy's and not much of a field dog. He was very talented and got 14 Derby points( very tough circuit that year as 5 of the top 10 Derby dogs were on the East Coast) and QAA at 2. I ran Open/Amateur with him and we seemed to always make it to the 3 or 4th but no ribbons. I had to get out of trials when he was 4 due to job/divorce etc. It was the worst mistake I ever made because he had the talent to make a FC-AFC I believe. Fast forward I had a stud puppy from him but he got injured real bad (got caught in a fox trap and sliced all his tendons in half) that totally ruined him. He is a happy goofy house dog now that trains every other time on marks but no blinds. We now have a just turned 3 female competing in the Q that has the talent for AA if I can get her blinds under control and a alpha female 4.5 month pup that is 24/7 wired to the hilt. She is exciting though. Thats my story! I wont ever go back to Labs. Love my Goldens!


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