# watching the marks go down



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

speaking of sitting on buckets, here's another thing Dan does which everyone else probably already knows, but just in case...
If you are going to have to be sitting on a bucket, have your dog sit about 4-6 feet away from the bucket, and stay. Then go sit on the bucket, get yourself positioned, gun loaded and ready, duck call in mouth or whistle or whatever, and THEN when you are all set, call your dog in to heel.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> speaking of sitting on buckets, here's another thing Dan does which everyone else probably already knows, but just in case...
> If you are going to have to be sitting on a bucket, have your dog sit about 4-6 feet away from the bucket, and stay. Then go sit on the bucket, get yourself positioned, gun loaded and ready, duck call in mouth or whistle or whatever, and THEN when you are all set, call your dog in to heel.


Yes, and you do not have to send seated either. I stand and take a step toward the mark I want the dog to pick up first to ensure they are focused on it. My dogs are also used to me sending them standing in AKC/CKC much of the time, so I do not like to mix up that sequence.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> How about a discussion of how your dog watches the marks go down, and why?
> Do you have him sit facing forward, and then just turn his head to watch each mark go down?
> Or, do you have him face each mark as it goes down? Meaning, do you do a small pivot and have him pivot with you?
> 
> ...


With a double or a tight triple I usually just put the dog in a neutral position so that they can see everything. If there is a big swing "around the horn" then I am going to add in those movement cues to ensure my dog has the best chance to see all of the marks go down. Of course when running HRC you are allowed to talk to the dog even after you call for the marks, so there I will use a quiet "here" or "heel" if I need it to get the dog around.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Usually focus and line on the "money" bird. Depending on the separation. I want him to get he best view of all the marks. Also will cue like Sherry said if there is a big swing but not much. I still want him focused as much as possible on the most difficult bird.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

I point them at the first bird down and then turn to the others to guide the dog. I know it doesn't really make make difference in a HT since it is hard to miss the marks at that distance with duck calls and shots and all. At FTs the movement, even if it is slight, is an extra advantage to help them see the throw, which can often be very difficult to pick out.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I haven't asked my pro. What I have done with doubles is just position her so she can see both then send when she is looking at the last fall. As she is coming back I turn to where the next bird will be to cue her early. Then she is also at the right side after delivering the first bird. She comes to heel and looks out waiting for me to send and then I take the bird, and then I send.

With triples...I have only done a few times. I did the same teaching, but when did the first 'big' one I had her turn with me because I didn't want her to screw up.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Tatnall said:


> I point them at the first bird down and then turn to the others to guide the dog. I know it doesn't really make make difference in a HT since it is hard to miss the marks at that distance with duck calls and shots and all. At FTs the movement, even if it is slight, is an extra advantage to help them see the throw, which can often be very difficult to pick out.


Oh, it can make a huge difference, especially with well hidden gun stations(no white coats to say "bird will emerge here!"), when you have a big swing (had one test of over 180 degree swing from first bird to last during last season), or when the judges decide to have a bubba gunner on the line and no shots/calls in the field(which they can do--there is nothing in the regs saying there _must_ be a shot/call from the station), or when they decide to throw the flyer out of order and the dog will not move off it to the next bird down!!!!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks for adding the difference between HT and FT to the discussion, I only do HT (and am new at that, too!) so I tend to forget the FT side of the sport!




Tatnall said:


> I point them at the first bird down and then turn to the others to guide the dog. I know it doesn't really make make difference in a HT since it is hard to miss the marks at that distance with duck calls and shots and all. At FTs the movement, even if it is slight, is an extra advantage to help them see the throw, which can often be very difficult to pick out.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

When I just ran hunt tests, I basically walked to the line, sat my dog and called for the birds. Sterregold is right that they can hide the guns, but it is pretty tough to do without using a winger and my dogs can easily hear the winger launch at HT distances. In FTs, the marks are usually (but not always) tight enough that the dog doesn't have to move and can just turn their heads but in either case I will now move to make sure that my dog is watching the mark.

In FTs the handler really needs to know what they are doing to help their dogs (and I am still not that good at it). Many of the marks are very tough to see even with the white coats. Getting your dog to pull off of a flyer station in your lap and look out for a 500 yard mark can be tough. Thankfully, most FTs run off of mats and while you can't talk to the dog, you can shuffle your foot on the mat.

One thing that can help is a two sided dog. Conventional wisdom is that the dog is on the side to which the last bird down is being thrown. However, you can change that up, for example to screen a particularly exciting bird until ready or to be able to move your dog to the money mark more effectively (most push better than they pull).

Oh, and I hate bubba gunners  . We ran a HT this fall since I was there working anyway. Dog and handler had to start from a layout blind (on a bucket not closed up, thank goodness). Flyer goes down, then the second bird had one gunner down the line yell "Shoot it, shoot it". Then a gunner popped out of a layout blind 4 feet from you and shot and the mark landed about 50 yards. Then you had to move to another layout blind to honor. The honor was just too much for my AA dog who had never seen a layout blind. He had never broken before but he beat the working dog to the mark that day. I thought I had accidentally walked into an HRC test.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

my pro does pretty much all HRC...no wonder he does some of the weird stuff (to me) that he does when we are training. 
Like when we work on steadiness, he will stand a few feet from me and shout "there goes one! there he goes!" and so on. Now I know why!


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

This thread got me thinking I need to do some training on big swings, just in case. As Sterregold says they will crop up from time to time, even in a FT (at least the Q). Back when I judged HTs, I did like to set them up from time to time, particularly late in the season, to see a little teamwork on the line for the marks.

I think I have been doing too many hip pockets, momma poppa and flower pots recently that some work on moving to pick out the marks would be helpful.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Tatnall said:


> Oh, and I hate bubba gunners  . We ran a HT this fall since I was there working anyway. Dog and handler had to start from a layout blind (on a bucket not closed up, thank goodness). Flyer goes down, then the second bird had one gunner down the line yell "Shoot it, shoot it". Then a gunner popped out of a layout blind 4 feet from you and shot and the mark landed about 50 yards. Then you had to move to another layout blind to honor. The honor was just too much for my AA dog who had never seen a layout blind. He had never broken before but he beat the working dog to the mark that day. I thought I had accidentally walked into an HRC test.


Evil way of testing trainability, eh!?! I heard some grumbling at some AKC tests this summer where the judges included what some handlers thought were "HRC" style elements. They came expecting straight up call/shot from the station stuff and were all worried because they hadn't trained their dog to deal with the huntier elements. Some of the folks I know who have been around since the inception of the AKC hunt test program tell me the tests had drifted away from the inclusion of those elements over the years, and they are glad to see it coming back. We get a lot of that in CKC tests (like judges putting out 100+ snow goose decoys, or layout blinds, or having the handler out in the field fixing a decoy with the dog sitting on line when the marks go off!...) so we kind of expect it. In particular, if we run under Quebec judges, we have to be prepared to do crazy things like belly crawl to line for a "walk-up" as if sneaking a pond (they've had to accomodate that one for physically limited handlers a time or two)! The rule book calls for the inclusion of realistic hunting elements, so as long as it does not interfere with the dog's ability to mark the falls, or cause safety/access issues hunt testers should be prepared for it!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Tatnall said:


> This thread got me thinking I need to do some training on big swings, just in case. As Sterregold says they will crop up from time to time, even in a FT (at least the Q). Back when I judged HTs, I did like to set them up from time to time, particularly late in the season, to see a little teamwork on the line for the marks.
> 
> I think I have been doing too many hip pockets, momma poppa and flower pots recently that some work on moving to pick out the marks would be helpful.


It popped up in at least one Open up here last season. Blew the minds of a lot of FT-only dogs, and definitely got some separation that the concept-mark based tests weren't doing. A friend's AFC/MH dog did very well in that one! And wasn't there a series like that in one of the US Nationals last year?


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

My club is a HRC club and Jige is being taught to just turn his head. I have not really done any doubles with yet. He was too little last year when training ended and we have not started spring training yet. I have practiced at home sitting on a bucket and working on his heeling he is doing really well with that.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

My mind is envisioning all types of things that a 'bubba' gunner may refer to  Can someone explain what it actually is referring to?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

A bubba gunner is someone firing on the marks who is not sitting at a gun station. The bubba could be online where you are running your dog, off to the side, or even sitting out in the field in the middle of all the action, turning to shoot as each mark comes out or hollering things like "got another one!" In Junior you will most likely see them sitting on the line, just shooting as each mark is thrown and otherwise being unobtrusive. But in Senior and more so Master you can see the other variations.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Duplicate post!!!!


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

sterregold said:


> I heard some grumbling at some AKC tests this summer where the judges included what some handlers thought were "HRC" style elements.


Although, I am firmly in the camp of 'you are not hunting but testing your dog on skills used in hunting', I don't mind common stuff. You want to put a huge spread of dekes out? Fine (although if they are snow goose, I am going to put on my white coat). Want me to sit on a bucket? Remote send? All cool. What bugs me is when someone tosses in something that someone may not ever see in a lifetime of hunting but is how they do it back home.

Oh, and worrying whether I waited until the bird was in the air to shoulder my fake gun. That bugs me too. They should just get rid of that thing.

Bubba gunners aren't really that bad--any dog that I have would definitely hear a lot of hootin' and hollerin' on opening day of dove season with my ******* friends.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

sterregold said:


> or hollering things like "got another one!"


A true bubba gunner must yell something as loudly and in the most obnoxious ******* accent as possible. Otherwise it doesn't do justice to all the "Bubbas" out there.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Some these tests go past ridiculous. I really think it is a lack knowledge of how to test a dog's ability but rather what kind of cute trick you can come up with to mess with their head. Which leads to training for something you don't need in the field when you could be training something more valuable. I mean "come on man" anybody that has trained and hunted their dog knows the dog learns it in field fairly quickly. First time I ever see snow dekes out, my white coat will come out so fast it will make your head spin. I have another theory on this that involves training vs pulling a dog off of a truck and then getting to judge.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Radarsdad said:


> Some these tests go past ridiculous. I really think it is a lack knowledge of how to test a dog's ability but rather what kind of cute trick you can come up with to mess with their head. Which leads to training for something you don't need in the field when you could be training something more valuable. I mean "come on man" anybody that has trained and hunted their dog knows the dog learns it in field fairly quickly. First time I ever see snow dekes out, my white coat will come out so fast it will make your head spin. I have another theory on this that involves training vs pulling a dog off of a truck and then getting to judge.


Some judges are better than others. I think there are some who want to show off or put too much emphasis on the handler and not enough on the dog. I bet Sterregold puts on a great test. I ran a test last Spring under one of the MN judges that was wild. Lots and lots of snow goose dekes (yes, we were allowed to wear white) land water triple, poison bird blind and honor all in one series. It was a lot going on but was a good bird placement a good test for the dogs and lots of fun for the handlers. OTOH, I think some of them look at the layout blinds, popup blinds, tree stands, etc in their garage and decide to use them just to show they have them and the test is secondary. Some even I swear are just on power trips.

But, I don't mean to highjack the thread and turn it into a HT/FT judging thread.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Tatnall said:


> Although, I am firmly in the camp of 'you are not hunting but testing your dog on skills used in hunting', I don't mind common stuff. You want to put a huge spread of dekes out? Fine (although if they are snow goose, I am going to put on my white coat). Want me to sit on a bucket? Remote send? All cool. What bugs me is when someone tosses in something that someone may not ever see in a lifetime of hunting but is how they do it back home.
> 
> Oh, and worrying whether I waited until the bird was in the air to shoulder my fake gun. That bugs me too. They should just get rid of that thing.
> 
> Bubba gunners aren't really that bad--any dog that I have would definitely hear a lot of hootin' and hollerin' on opening day of dove season with my ******* friends.


I too do not mind seeing things like mulitple dekes, or a gunner in a layout blind or a bubba, or sitting behind a blind with the dog out front either. The test I saw with the snow goose socks, you were allowed to wear white because it was a snow goose hunt, so they took it all the way. Those elements do allow the judge to have an opportunity to test things like trainability (as described in the standard, as opposed to a trained marking concept) beyond the stereotypical set-ups. That variety is one of the reasons I like running hunt tests. 

When I judge, I try to examine a field/pond with an eye to how I would hunt it, and where the birds would be coming from if we were set up on it, and then include the elements that would be there in a real hunt for that species, as much as is feasible. Now, most of the places I judge have terrain and game species like that I get at home, so that helps. It would be tougher were I to head south or west where the conditions are different. Oh, and *I* hunt, train my dogs, and run my dogs!

In the tests I have run, the ones that included the most hunty elements have been set by judges who hunt and who train their own dogs. Tests I have run that use trained concepts in marking (like the momma-poppas, etc) tend to be set by people of the pro-trained-the-dog variety. Some of the stuff, like the dog being remote because you are getting the judge a coffee (yes, that one really happened!), are into the land of the silly ridiculous--not that I haven't been caught pouring myself a mug when out in the marsh, but still, it is not conducive to good dog handling!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Actually that sounds like a test I would like to run. Have to agree with the power trip thing.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Tatnall said:


> Some judges are better than others. I think there are some who want to show off or put too much emphasis on the handler and not enough on the dog. I bet Sterregold puts on a great test. I ran a test last Spring under one of the MN judges that was wild. Lots and lots of snow goose dekes (yes, we were allowed to wear white) land water triple, poison bird blind and honor all in one series. It was a lot going on but was a good bird placement a good test for the dogs and lots of fun for the handlers. OTOH, I think some of them look at the layout blinds, popup blinds, tree stands, etc in their garage and decide to use them just to show they have them and the test is secondary. Some even I swear are just on power trips.
> 
> But, I don't mean to highjack the thread and turn it into a HT/FT judging thread.


The distinction is important to make, so I think it is worth noting. Lots of hunt test people get frustrated by what they see as the influence of field trial concepts creeping into hunt tests, and lots of the crossover people see some of the "hunty" elements as hokey or gimmicky Four categories of evalution of equal weight does make for different considerations in setting up a test than a situation where "marking is of primary importance," so it does have bearing.

I hope that people have enjoyed the tests I set! And I would love to run a test like the first you described--good marking tested, good testing of trainability and perseverance. Using stuff just because you have it, yeah, that gets wearing. On of my pet peeves anout HRC in my area is that you are pretty much always running off a platform on water--but it is a plywood platform, built by the club and stuck on the bank--sometimnes it doesn't even project over the water! Just kind of makes me go, really? I would not be carrying a sheet of plywood and a bunch of 2x4s out to the marsh or pond with me to go hunting!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> Lots of hunt test people get frustrated by what they see as the influence of field trial concepts creeping into hunt tests, and lots of the crossover people see some of the "hunty" elements as hokey or gimmicky


I think you kind of hit it there. I think that FT concepts and training influence have played a major influence in the level of the dogs we have today. I think there is a factor in play about the time and training some can put into their dogs. Those that can't have a different standard with the time and opportunity they can put into the pups. If there were not Field Trials in the beginning there would be no Hunt Tests. Personally I want my dog to be the best he can in any venue. The basics of training for any venue has it's roots in Field Trials. 
Most want to compete in a venue they can succeed in and that is why we have so many dog games. Each one has it's own merits.


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