# opinions on electric collars



## chloe920

I was wondering if anyone used an e-collar to train their dogs off leash. Chloe is a great dog, but my concern is that when off leash, she can get over excited and jump up on people. She does extremely well off leash but can get distracted by other dogs or kids. Has anyone used an e-collar? They seem a little "barbaric". We also let her off leash at the cottage at times and I thought this would work well instead of an underground fence if she tried to run down the lane.

L.


----------



## Duke's Momma

Yes, we have used one. Only for training, not all the time. Duke does great with it. It's extremely important to be trained to use it. We took ours, brand new, to our trainers and she spend about 1 1/2 hour with me and Duke.

The basic thing behind it is to make their world smaller and you to be their "safe place". Before I ever used it on him, I used it on me. It will make them yelp at first because it startles them. Not because it hurts.

They're great, imho. My dad thinks they're cruel. Again, it doesn't hurt them and is great for training.


----------



## fostermom

I personally do not like them. I think that if you use positive reinforcement based training, you will get the same results without using a shock collar. My three are up at the lake off leash the entire time and never leave a specific area. We even take a 2 mile walk up the road leading in (no cars to speak of, speed limit 15 mph) off leash and they stay within 20 or so feet of me. All three. As for jumping up, you might need to keep a leash on her when you know people are coming over and use that to pull her off and use the command "off". My dogs *love* visitors, but they don't actually jump up on them, sometimes they will jump up *next* to them and try to get a kiss in. But with training, they have learned "paws off" with no shock collar.


----------



## Maggies mom

We use them.and agree that a trainer should show you how to use them the correct way. Most the time the collars are dead and my dogs dont know the difference.


----------



## tippykayak

I am hugely against the use of e-collars for basic manners training. I was once bitten by a dog who was collar-fearful because of misuse of an e-collar by his family. The shocked him every time he jumped up on company, and what he took away from the experience was that his collar and neck were places of fear and pain. 

Recall and no-jump can be accomplished very simply with pure positive training, and using an e-collar without producing unwanted side effects requires a great deal of accuracy and perfect timing. You can create dangerous problems with fear and anxiety if you misuse it or if the trainer you're working with isn't dead-on perfect.

Practice greetings in controlled situations so she learns what's expected. Practice them when you're right at hand to redirect her; practice them at a distance with a "stranger" who's been briefed on how to react. The real secret to manners training is practice in controlled situations, not aversion based punishment.

And before you listen to people who tell you it doesn't hurt, I highly recommend you strap one to your own neck and push the button a few times.


----------



## kwhit

Duke's Momma said:


> It will make them yelp at first because it startles them. Not because it hurts.


I don't believe this for a second, and you'd never convince me otherwise.


----------



## judegirl

I have used one. NEVER would I have it set high enough to make my dog vocalize. He never has. He now has complete freedom as a result of PROPER training which is critical. I have strapped it on and it is no different than what was used in Physio for me. His recall is amazing and he is an upbeat, happy bouncy dog with no fears of anything. Education is key for proper use.


----------



## tippykayak

judegirl said:


> I have used one. NEVER would I have it set high enough to make my dog vocalize. He never has. He now has complete freedom as a result of PROPER training which is critical. I have strapped it on and it is no different than what was used in Physio for me. His recall is amazing and he is an upbeat, happy bouncy dog with no fears of anything. Education is key for proper use.


Sounds like you did well with it, but I will also point out that I have exactly the same level of control you describe and a wonderfully positive attitude from my dogs, and I've gotten it without shocking them.


----------



## FlyingQuizini

Duke's Momma said:


> It will make them yelp at first because it startles them. Not because it hurts.QUOTE]
> 
> OK. I'll fully admit to being a bit of a ******** here... but tell me: where did you get your degree in canine mind reading?  How do you *know* that the vocalization is a startle reflex and not a pain response? The reality is, we never know what the animal is thinking.
> 
> I think it's important to frame statements like that within the reference of being your personal opinion rather than blatant fact.
> 
> IMO, *some* dogs may vocalize as a result of being startled and *some* because the stimulus is painful. As for which is which, it's pretty hard to know the difference.
> 
> As for my stance on e-collars... no surprise, I'm against them. Definitely for manners training and frankly, I have a hard time seeing the need even in things like field work. The only use I can *maybe* see for them is in something like snake avoidance training, but even then, ONLY in the hands of an exceptionally skilled trainer. I think *most* people turn to them as a short cut in training b/c they have failed to realize just how much repetition is actually involved in training dogs to be fluent in behaviors/skills that we wish to teach.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Are hidden fences generally looked upon along the same lines as an electric collar?


----------



## Sawyer4me

I think the only time I have ever heard of the collar being used in a way that I would consider appropriate is snake avoidance training. I hadn't heard of snake avoidance training until I was in Arizona and I thought "Wow that makes sense". The collar is really fear based enforcment, we want the dogs to be fearful/apprehensive of poisonous snakes. 

They shouldn't be fearful of humans. Goldens also should not need a fear based training for field or hunting work.

Just my opinion.


----------



## Jo Ellen

What about fear based training when you don't have a fenced yard?


----------



## missmarstar

Jo, this is just my opinion and I am interested to see what others think, but I don't see an electric fence (fine) in the same way as using an e-collar for basic obedience training (not fine).


----------



## FlyingQuizini

Jo Ellen said:


> Are hidden fences generally looked upon along the same lines as an electric collar?


I think that's a great question, Jo. IMO, I'd never want to use an e-fence with my dog. I'd much rather put up a real fence or choose to only be outside WITH my dog and only let him off leash if my property wasn't right on a road or something. 

I do understand that many people don't have the option of real fences and so they turn to an e-fence. If they are wanting to leave their dog unattended in the yard, then at least I guess I understand WHY they're using the e-fence. Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable leaving a dog unattended with an e-fence b/c it doesn't stop other dogs/people, etc. from entering the yard and potentially creating a problem for my dog. Plus, there's also the very likely chance that a dog will choose to chase something right through the shock (in a high state of drive) but then won't want to take another shock to get back IN the yard - so now the dog is stuck on the wrong side of the fence!

I guess I don't see turning to an e-fence as a shortcut in training b/c I don't believe it's realistic to think you could actually train a dog to stay in his yard (against any distraction) w/o one. Or maybe I don't think it's a responsible thing to do - thinking you'll train your dog to stay in the yard unsupervised.

So, bottom line: Do I like e-fences? No. Do I see them as the same kind of short cut attempt as an e-collar? No... I kinda can understand why some people turn to them, it's just not something I'd ever be cofortable with.


----------



## Lucky's mom

I think dogs are different...owners are different...situations are different...so there are a lot of different tools at our disposal.

Lucky may do well with the electronic collar ...and I think he would...but I wouldn't. Anything electronic terrifies me. Just figuring out our remotes for the tv is hard enough. 

My stepson uses the electronic collar...but that dog really just needs to run like the wind and she'd be fine. She is out of control at times, but for her its energy that needs to be spent.


----------



## FlyingQuizini

Lucky's mom said:


> My stepson uses the electronic collar...but that dog really just needs to run like the wind and she'd be fine. She is out of control at times, but for her its energy that needs to be spent.


See, that's what I think is so sad about e-collars. They allow owners to choose not to personally meet the needs of their dogs, and then proceed to punish them further for the behavioral fallout that results. Back to my idea of an unfortunate short cut, I guess.


----------



## Lucky's mom

FlyingQuizini said:


> See, that's what I think is so sad about e-collars. They allow owners to choose not to personally meet the needs of their dogs, and then proceed to punish them further for the behavioral fallout that results. Back to my idea of an unfortunate short cut, I guess.


 
Sure....however its not just the dog...its the owner as well that matters in these decisions. 

I believe this dog should be in a field running with other dogs. But that isnt' the reality. Either way...the dog needs to behave and needs to learn. Without the collar, Lily would be out of control and would be ingraining bad behavior.


----------



## FlyingQuizini

Lucky's mom said:


> Sure....however its not just the dog...its the owner as well that matters in these decisions.
> 
> I believe this dog should be in a field running with other dogs. But that isnt' the reality. Either way...the dog needs to behave and needs to learn. Without the collar, Lily would be out of control and would be ingraining bad behavior.


Except that, IMO, there are other ways to meet the dog's energy needs besides just free running with other dogs. Also other ways to teach the dog how to have self-control so that *good* behaviors can be ingrained. 

Absolutely the owner matters. I'd argue that 98% of dog training is the HUMAN, not the DOG!  It's frustrating and often pain-staking to work a high energy dog who hasn't learned self-control - which, IMO, is why people turn to collars. I'd bet money that a high energy dog like Quiz, in the wrong home, could've very easily ended up on an e-collar. It was a TON OF WORK to mold him into a calm house dog who can (usually!) exhibit self control out in public or in an obedience/agility ring. He's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but still, I can't imagine having put an e-collar on him to speed up the process.

Just a difference of training styles and an example of my bias against e-collars.


----------



## Lucky's mom

FlyingQuizini said:


> Just a difference of training styles and an example of my bias against e-collars.


Oh I totally respect that and you are a wealth of valuable information even though it may seem that I argue too much Believe me...my husband and I get after my step-son to get that dog some EXERCISE!

I have it so easy...Lucky is so darned adaptable. He is not a high-energy dog.


----------



## FlyingQuizini

Lucky's mom said:


> Oh I totally respect that and you are a wealth of valuable information even though it may seem that I argue too much Believe me...my husband and I get after my step-son to get that dog some EXERCISE!
> 
> I have it so easy...Lucky is so darned adaptable. He is not a high-energy dog.


Oh gosh, no worries! I don't see it as arguing at all. 

I think for me personally, I'd be a bit more comfortable if e-collar users would at least admit to using it in lieu of taking the time to train the desired behavior. Call it what it is, don't sugarcoat it, ya know? It frustrates me when people jump to saying, "It didn't work the other way," when most of the time, they didn't give "the other way" enough time. In their defense, I think few people really understand how much repetition is needed -- or, frankly, how much WORK it is to train a dog! That's not their fault. There needs to be better education out there so people know what to expect and know how to set reasonable expectations for their dog in training -- so that they understand that if it's not working w/in the first month, that doens't mean they have to jump to the e-collar... I dunno. Now I'm rambling a bit. :doh: Anyway, I don't think we're arguing... just discussing a difference of opinions. Tis all good with me! Thanks!


----------



## tippykayak

I'm mostly with Steph here. E-collars are such a part of the field work culture that suggesting they shouldn't be used even in that situation brings down the wrath of that big chunk of the field competition community that uses them and believes in them. So I make sure I've had a big breakfast before I mention that.

On manners training, though, it's pretty clear cut for me. I work with high drive, high energy dogs, and the idea of shocking one to get him to stop jumping is completely unacceptable in my mind. If my dog jumps on people, it's because he's friendly and wants to say "hi, I love you even though I just met you!" It's _my_ fault he hasn't learned a more appropriate way to greet company, so if the e-collar belongs anywhere, it belongs on _me_.

It makes even more sense in people's minds as a shortcut to training recall outdoors. I still think it's a cop-out. Recall training a Golden is about tapping and reinforcing that retriever desire to run back to you. It can and should be a behavior that's full of fun and joy. Using a shock to "interrupt" your dog's attention isn't fair when you haven't taken the time to train the dog to learn to be interrupted by your voice or whistle.

And as far as e-fences, I'd rather just spend the time in the backyard with my dog. Teaching the dog that the borders of the yard are mysteriously scary and painful doesn't cut it for me.


----------



## Ljilly28

FlyingQuizini said:


> Duke's Momma said:
> 
> 
> 
> It will make them yelp at first because it startles them. Not because it hurts.QUOTE]
> 
> OK. I'll fully admit to being a bit of a ******** here... but tell me: where did you get your degree in canine mind reading?  How do you *know* that the vocalization is a startle reflex and not a pain response? The reality is, we never know what the animal is thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with Stephanie. While e collars may have their place at the Master Hunter level, an intelligent program of collar conditioning (CC) is always undertaken. E collars as shortcuts to thoughtful, bonding obedience training makes me much more sad then when my students use Cliff Notes to prepare for the AP exam( and that makes me sad!)
Click to expand...


----------



## Emma&Tilly

E-collars are not readily available over here and not really used on pet dogs...I am fairly active in the doggy community and have never seen one and doubt I ever will. This makes me wonder...in a country with 8 million dogs and the huge majority of owners having never even seen an electric collar...I just can't help believe they are not necessary for pet dogs. I think it is fair to say that UK dogs enjoy a high level of freedom...and still, controlling a pet dog using a static shock is not resorted to. 

I would love to know if they are used in field/hunting training in the UK, Im sure they are in some circles but I would bet that most do not. Are dogs in the UK not able to reach as high levels of training without them? I used to think that when the time comes that you contemplate shocking a dog during training then the time have come to leave the dog world...they go against anything I thought an animal lover would believe in. I have since read more about them (as I knew just about nothing previously) I can see how they may have their place..possibly, in some situations...but on the whole, countries in which they are illegal (or not really used) prove that you can get along in dog training perfectly well without them!


----------



## Jo Ellen

I'm not in a position to put in a real fence and my yard is so large, it would cost a small fortune. Not an option unfortunately. 

Daisy is never outside unsupervised. I would never use the e-fence for that purpose. But the e-fence does give her the option to roam more freely than she could before. There's two little girls that live next door, 2 dogs and a bunch of cats ... the rewards for going into their yard are huge for her. So huge that so far not even the e-fence is a complete solution, but we're making progress. 

I feel bad on one hand, really I do, but I do think that sometimes you have to work with what you have.


----------



## goldengirls550

FlyingQuizini said:


> See, that's what I think is so sad about e-collars. They allow owners to choose not to personally meet the needs of their dogs, and then proceed to punish them further for the behavioral fallout that results. Back to my idea of an unfortunate short cut, I guess.


Very well put, Steph. I agree. I am obviously against both e-collars and e-fences. They are no substitute for training. And honestly, I'm gonna get alot of crap for this, but I don't understand why you would take the time to put up an electric fence and not just go ahead and fence off your property. I would NEVER EVER feel safe leaving ANY dog in an invisibly fenced yard. You just can't guarantee what will happen when you are gone. Between a cat running across the street another vicious dog, or kids on bikes. And what would happen if a VICIOUS loose dog were to run onto YOUR property?? Thinking about what would happen in these situations scares me.

To teach your dog that outside is a scary place where he/she could be unexpectedly shocked is not my idea of good training. The same goes for using e-collars. Why not redirect your dog's energy towards positive activities. I'm gonna take a big leap in saying this, but I personally believe that almost ALL bad behaviors in dogs can be stopped without an e-collar. I don't think that an e-collar is a logical way of training... JMO.


----------



## Duke's Momma

Apparently never mind what I said. Duke did fine with it and when it was new I used it at 2. But I must be cruel to him. Every dog is different.


----------



## paula bedard

I have an electric fence, have for years. I never left Sam nor do I leave Ike, unattended. It is simply a way of setting up a boundary. I'm in the woods and do not want my dog to venture off and get lost. Sometimes they see a squirrel or bird and their instincts take over. A simple 'beep' stops them in their tracks...at least it has for me. 

I also use a radio collar for Ike when we are away from home. I NEVER use the shock setting. Mine is set on 0. I only use it to beep him when he's heading in a direction that I do not want him to go. Ike had repeated ear infections as a pup and I think he has a slight hearing deficit. He does not seem to hear me very well when we are outdoors, too much other noise, but does hear a 'beep,beep,beep' very close to his ears. He also responds very well to hand signals, but I have to catch his attention first.

I say if you're using the BEEP function only, then it's a valuable tool in keeping them safe when you are out and about. And yes, I took training classes with Sam. I trained Ike from home using the techniques I learned in class.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Wanting to defend myself here :

I don't own this property, I can't put in a real fence. And you would have to see the layout to understand but I would have to change a lot of very important structural features to put in a real fence. It's just not an option.

I NEVER leave Daisy outside unsupervised, not for a minute. When she's outside, I'm outside. When I'm not here, she's inside. I always know where she is and what is happening in her world. Always.

I'm not sure about the "unexpected" shock with the e-fence. I have flags all around the perimeter that mark the end of her safe zone. She already understands her new boundaries, she recognizes the flags and the beeps and I also think she understands that if she goes beyond them, she gets a shock. It's not unexpected and definitely not random.

I have no idea what e-collars are like, I've never had one and have never felt one. I do know what the shock feels like with the e-fence, maybe it is similar. It's not painful, it's more .... shall I say _alarming. _Can I assume that what I feel is what she feels? I know, that's a stretch trying to climb inside a dog's mind but I at least hope that if it's not painful for me, it's not painful for her either.

I'm not quick to see the e-fence in some situations as a short-cut or irresponsibility on my part. I'm obviously considering the notion, because I'm here reading, but I'm more inclined to believe that it's the most kind option for our situation...and one that gives Daisy the most amount of freedom she can have in these circumstances.

I want to say one more time, I NEVER leave Daisy outside unattended. That was not the purpose of the e-fence for us.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Duke's Momma said:


> Apparently never mind what I said. Duke did fine with it and when it was new I used it at 2. But I must be cruel to him. Every dog is different.


Cindy, I KNOW you love Duke and you take good care of him. I know that as well as I know the sun rises and sets, everyday.


----------



## tippykayak

paula bedard said:


> I also use a radio collar for Ike when we are away from home. I NEVER use the shock setting. Mine is set on 0. I only use it to beep him when he's heading in a direction that I do not want him to go.


If the e-collar were never used to shock, even during training, I would consider it a whole different kind of device. I've always thought that a little speaker on a collar would be nice, since I'd be able to pair a vocal command with a hand signal or a whistle blast when the dog was far away. 

The problem is that if the beep is initially paired with a shock, then when you take the shock away, the beep is still working because it's a traumatic event. That wouldn't be kosher in my training plan.


----------



## tippykayak

Duke's Momma said:


> Apparently never mind what I said. Duke did fine with it and when it was new I used it at 2. But I must be cruel to him. Every dog is different.


I don't think anybody called it cruel but you. I just said I didn't like using pain and discomfort as a training tool and that I felt that positive methods were overall a better solution for manners and recall training. Nobody said or implied that an owner who used one was a bad person or cruel to their dog.


----------



## tippykayak

Jo Ellen said:


> Daisy is never outside unsupervised. I would never use the e-fence for that purpose. But the e-fence does give her the option to roam more freely than she could before. There's two little girls that live next door, 2 dogs and a bunch of cats ... the rewards for going into their yard are huge for her. So huge that so far not even the e-fence is a complete solution, but we're making progress.
> 
> I feel bad on one hand, really I do, but I do think that sometimes you have to work with what you have.


We have kids next door, and it's definitely possible to train the dogs to observe the yard boundary unless they're specifically told they're allowed to go play with the kids. Now, keeping the kids from running into _our_ yard to play with the dogs is much harder. I've often had the fleeting thought that an electric fence might work on the kiddies, but then I remember that it would be cruel and illegal.


----------



## Ljilly28

FlyingQuizini said:


> See, that's what I think is so sad about e-collars. They allow owners to choose not to personally meet the needs of their dogs, and then proceed to punish them further for the behavioral fallout that results. Back to my idea of an unfortunate short cut, I guess.


I 100 percent agree with this. We are lucky to have professional dog trainers with accomplished dogs of their own, plus experience with many others, to make us think, challenge our old ideas, and teach us on the forum.


----------



## paula bedard

tippykayak said:


> If the e-collar were never used to shock, even during training, I would consider it a whole different kind of device. I've always thought that a little speaker on a collar would be nice, since I'd be able to pair a vocal command with a hand signal or a whistle blast when the dog was far away.
> 
> The problem is that if the beep is initially paired with a shock, then when you take the shock away, the beep is still working because it's a traumatic event. That wouldn't be kosher in my training plan.


Hmm...I hadn't thought about a voice transmitter. Wonder if I could pair one with a blue tooth and wear it so I'd be hands free. Hubby likes to tinker, I think I'll give him the idea...

I don't know about professionally installed radio fences, but ours is not a strong shock. My son and husband both put the collar on and ran through the line. Boys will be boys....they both jumped as they ran through it, but said it felt like licking a 9V battery, not very strong.


----------



## wagondog

I personally would not use an e-collar on my dogs, I feel that except for a few very select cases it is the next step for a dog that is difficult to train. That is my opinion, I do know that the e-coller is now fitted with a beep to signal the dog but given human nature.....if the beep doesn't work let's try the shock feature.
This is an actual scenerio that I have personal knowledge of. i was very active in the Rottweiller world a while ago, and had friends that were owners and trainers in dog sports. One of the people I knew inadvertantly left the e-collar on his dog after a morning work out, and went to work. The dog was home alone and unsupervised, Unfortunately the home was in the flight path of Kennedy International Airport. The frequency used on the aircraft sent the necessary signal to the e-collar and to the dog for the entire day.
I'll take a 30 ft training line over an e-collar everyday but for those who have been trained to use them properly that's their perogative.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Yeah, can't shock the kids :bowl: I don't mind if the kids and dogs come into my yard, Daisy loves to say hello to them. But there's so much going on over in their yard that is so tempting for Daisy. They have like 8 cats, they feed them outside (Daisy loves cat food of course), they have a burn pile full of god knows what, deer carcasses sometimes even.


----------



## tippykayak

Jo Ellen said:


> Yeah, can't shock the kids :bowl: I don't mind if the kids and dogs come into my yard, Daisy loves to say hello to them. But there's so much going on over in their yard that is so tempting for Daisy. They have like 8 cats, they feed them outside (Daisy loves cat food of course), they have a burn pile full of god knows what, deer carcasses sometimes even.


Hmm...I know from experience that my guys' positive recall training works over rotting deer in the woods, squirrels in a field, and cats in the yard, but I wouldn't say I could beat the daily temptation of all of that together, and it takes a whole lot of vigilance on the part of the handler.


----------



## Jo Ellen

I know, I've failed in the long course


----------



## Jo Ellen

Maybe if I had 8 cats and deer carcasses laying about, and 2 adorable little girls, and a swimming pool and 2 other dogs, and cat food and oh, forgot the garbage ... they keep their garbage in open bags outside too ... well maybe if I had all that in my yard, Daisy would think our yard was as exciting as theirs and this wouldn't be an issue.

But anyway, it's not a problem calling her back. It's a problem for that one split second that she decides she's going over there and I'm not completely tuned in ... like when I'm mowing the lawn or working in my garden. I have been tethering her to the grape arbor but she hates that. I think she hates that more than she hates the electric fence. I can't help but think of the e-fence as the lesser of two evils.


----------



## Emma&Tilly

tippykayak said:


> I've always thought that a little speaker on a collar would be nice, since I'd be able to pair a vocal command with a hand signal or a whistle blast when the dog was far away.


I have often thought of that!!! You should make one you know...might make you a million!! Hehe, I would love one...'Earth to Tilly, Come in Tilly...this is your owner speaking...'


----------



## Duke's Momma

Now, after reading all the comments, I have this to say...

JoEllen - thank you so much - I treasure our friendship. You know me so well. 

I love my dog. Duke is my heart dog. I have used the collar since he was 1 1/2. We tried every collar on him during the training including the gentle leader and none were working.

MY TRAINER trained me on the collar before we ever put it on Duke. The yelping was for about 5 minutes IN THE VERY BEGINNING because he didn't know what it was. It was on 2. YOU hold the **** thing on 2 and can barely feel it. It was only when I touched the button. He hasn't yelped since then and when I do have it on him, which is ONLY during our walks, I don't even have it on.

When used correctly, it can be a great tool.


----------



## paula bedard

I did find a scorch mark on Ike's neck while using the collar when he was swimming, so I no longer let him swim in it. He never acted like he noticed the scorched area, but it had to have been from beeping him to come closer to shore. It's supposedly water proof and water submersible...still, I won't take another chance.


----------



## Duke's Momma

paula bedard said:


> I did find a scorch mark on Ike's neck while using the collar when he was swimming, so I no longer let him swim in it. He never acted like he noticed the scorched area, but it had to have been from beeping him to come closer to shore. It's supposedly water proof and water submersible...still, I won't take another chance.


Hi, Paula

Yes, I agree. It is supposed to be waterproof, but we don't trust it, either. Never saw a scorch mark, but with Duke - he's so nuts about his water toy and retrieving that him swimming away is never ever an issue anyway.


----------



## gabbys mom

goldengirls550 said:


> And honestly, I'm gonna get alot of crap for this, but I don't understand why you would take the time to put up an electric fence and not just go ahead and fence off your property. I would NEVER EVER feel safe leaving ANY dog in an invisibly fenced yard. You just can't guarantee what will happen when you are gone. Between a cat running across the street another vicious dog, or kids on bikes. And what would happen if a VICIOUS loose dog were to run onto YOUR property?? Thinking about what would happen in these situations scares me.


You're not a property owner, are you?

Many homeowner's associations by deed prevent people from putting up fences. Many communities (mine included) forbid by law the use of chain link fence, etc. And ugly fencing can drastically affect your property value. 

And if you've ever priced fencing (especially non-chain link), it is astronomical compared to an invisible fence. Many people don't have 5k on hand to drop on a fence when there is a 3-400 dollar version.


----------



## Selli-Belle

The other day I at agility class I wish I had a e-collar on myself. I kept saying "Selli Jump" at every jump and she would look at me and knock bars. I didn't even realize I was saying her name. If I was wearing an e-collar, the trainer could have zapped me every time I said her name.


----------



## chloe920

thank you so much for all the replies. I think given Chloe's inherent desire to please me, that I will continue to work positive methods and hope that she will learn her manners. Honestly, one of the biggest problems is that when she jumps up on strangers, they pet her. I keep telling them not to pet until she sits, but they just say..."Oh that's ok..I don't mind". Ok...well I'm glad you don't mind..but I do! She is already 65lbs and only 7 months...this won't be fun when she is full grown!

thanks again for the input.

L.


----------



## judegirl

I don't and never have used the collar as "punishment". I have a large strong intact male, who is allowed to swim, and run in huge open fields, 3-5 times a week. What I was finding difficult was how much I had to "correct" him on leash with his collar. Personally, I felt this was much harsher than the e-collar. He is a eager obedience guy also. When he is barking through my front window at a passing dog, and does not hear me because of his level of excitement I will use another stimulus other than my voice which he is beyond hearing. I will give him a poke with my fingers and it snaps him out of that "zone". I get no different response from him with the e-collar, just attention. If my voice doesn't work when he's charging away from me towards danger, a tick from the e-collar does. I do not have to use it at all now as he has become a really reliable dog. In the wrong hands, yes, I view it as punishment when used inappropriately. You should never see a "tear out your heart" reaction from your dog. Just a look to let you know he hears you. Much the same as a "choke collar" if used correctly.


----------



## FlyingQuizini

judegirl said:


> I don't and never have used the collar as "punishment".


Perhaps you haven't used it as a level of punishment that elicits an obvious pain or fear response from your dog, or you never used it out of anger, but if it decreased a behavior, by the scientific laws of learning, it's punishment.

I'm not knocking all punishers. I have used squirt bottles and citronella collars on different occassions when I (or my client) was, speaking very honestly, looking for a little short cut. But I was well aware that I was using a punisher in the process. However, to me, a squirt bottle or c-collar is a punisher I'm willing to use under certain circumstances. Just as an e-collar is for other people. I feel the risks of those types of punishers are far, far less than with the e-collar on most dogs - which is why sometimes I use them on some dogs. And yes, I'll even say that some dogs handle an e-collar as well as I've seen some dogs handle a c-collar... but the chance that they won't, and the fallout that may occur as a result, is too great of a risk for me to personally want to take.


----------



## judegirl

Whatever decreases the behaviour that will land my dog in danger is a good training tool for me. I don't view it as punishment, rather training. In all the animal world, there are consequences for certain behaviours. If a dog runs head on into a porcupine, there are consequences. If I have a tool at my disposal that I'm prepared to use as conservatively as possible in order to keep my dog safe, it only is a win win situation. We all learn through consequences and yes punishment, but the degree used is at question here. I think one of the most inhumane situations our dogs find themselves in, is to never get off a leash or out of a backyard because of lack of control. E-collar is not the only way to go. I have had several dogs and have only used it for this male. They are all well trained, but he is the one most reliable in an open field, and he hasn't had an e-collar on for months. I get no more that a look from him with this stimulus. I hurt him a lot more with a choke collar. We need to be open minded and fair with each individual dog and owner. But again, education is what protects the dog and owner and establishes that wonderful working relationship.


----------



## Ljilly28

judegirl said:


> I don't and never have used the collar as "punishment". I have a large strong intact male, who is allowed to swim, and run in huge open fields, 3-5 times a week. .


With the proper groundwork in recall and drop, this isnt a situation that must lead to corrections. Our dogs swim/run in huge open spaces every single day, and all have spot on recalls even if there's a deer or hikers. That is because, using positive methods, they have a deeply positive association with coming when called and they were carefully handled as pups so that the word "come" was only used when there was 100 percent chance of success. Now, it is an ingrained habit to do the right thing. The alternative to the ecollar is proper training. I understand you choose ecollars and choke chains bc you think of them as humane training. I have trained several dogs with a choke collar in the past, and see from experience that positive methods create just as obedient a dog, but with a more joyful bond during obedience work. Inherent within the idea of zapping a dog with an ecollar is rule by punishment- no way around that. I dont want to hit kids or dogs, or electrocute them either, when it is possible to acheive the same result by engaging my dogs as willing, interested learners.

In a practical sense, what is more effective? In a road test, if you put FlyingQuizini's Quiz, TippyKayak's Comet, and Tally, Finn and Tango to the test against 5 of the dogs here trained by ecollar, I am willing to bet the open field obedience of the positively trained dogs can stand the test of practical application. Careful, thorough, engaging training just works better to create an eagerly obedient, balanced, tuned in dog than electric shock imo.

I wonder if I could get the seniors in AP Engish to write in their margins while reading with an remote control ecollar? How about my 5 year old niece grabbing things out of her sister's hand- one shock boy, that'll teach her. I wouldnt shock any living being- that's for sure.


----------



## hotel4dogs

My 2 cents....
A lot of people don't have the experience or knowledge that, for example, Quiz or Tippy or Jilly, for example, have with positive training. I include myself in that "not as experienced" group.
So they don't start out with the thorough, positive total immersion training when their pups are 8 weeks old. Here's what Jill said, " That is because, using positive methods, they have a deeply positive association with coming when called and they were carefully handled as pups so that the word "come" was only used when there was 100 percent chance of success. Now, it is an ingrained habit to do the right thing".
That's wonderful and I don't dispute for a minute that it works.
But what about dogs who weren't handled that way as pups? They were taught by more traditional methods. I'm very very "soft" with my dog, but have not used all positive methods. He does get a collar pop or a stern word if I feel it's warranted.
So now I want to take him out and do some field work with him.
I have a 2+ year old, intact male, who is very well trained but has tremendous instinct and prey drive. Do I trust him 100% to come back if he takes off after a rabbit in the field? Um, NO.
So I have 2 choices. I can try, at 2 years old, to do things that *should* have been done when he was 8 weeks old. Or, I can go to an excellent field trainer, and learn the proper use of an e-collar in a field work situation (I am saying this specifically for field work). Is it a short cut? Yep. You bet it is. Maybe, just maybe, with a year or more of totally positive training I can train the prey drive out of him...or not. Do I plan to take the chance? Heck no.
JMO.
If I were doing it over, I would probably start him with totally positive training at 8 weeks old and then maybe I would trust him in a high instinct response situation. Maybe.
As I said, just my take on it. The people who are making the all positive training work are outstanding trainers, professionals, and/or people with a LOT of experience training dogs. They know to start it, and do it correctly, from the time the pup first arrives home. The rest of us, well, live and learn I suppose.


----------



## tippykayak

Ljilly28 said:


> With the proper groundwork in recall and drop, this isnt a situation that must lead to corrections.


I agree with Jill here (obviously). My positively trained guys have never seen a choke, prong, or e-collar. One has high prey drive and high pain tolerance, and the other has a very high prey drive and feels no pain when he's in the heat of the moment. Both are headstrong, intact males. One is 10 months and one is 22 months. Both obeyed a positively trained "leave it" command when we found an injured squirrel flopping around in the yard last week.

I, too, have trained with harsher methods in the past, but I've been learning over the last several years how to develop precision and reliability in commands by working on building and proofing habits and by strengthening my dogs' trust in me. You can certainly use aversives in dog training without ruining a dog or making him dangerous (though the risk is there), but I choose not to. I believe that the strength of habits in a dog's mind is our most powerful tool in developing reliability. I don't pit a reward against a distraction. I pit a rigorously developed habit against the distraction.

I also choose to discourage people who ask about using chokes, prongs, and e-collars, particularly for manners and pet-level obedience. Every time I've been called in to help with someone's "problem" pet, I haven't found a dog that's so incredibly headstrong that only an unpleasant stimulus can break through his attention. I've found confused dogs who have developed poor habits, and when they get the opportunity to work for food or attention under a clear set of rules and results, they respond beautifully. Do I believe that no aversive ever has a place in dog training? No. I do believe, however, just what Quiz said: that humans too frequently use them as shortcuts or as substitutes for better, kinder, more reliable, more effective methods.

After this cup of coffee, the three of us are headed out to the local wetlands for an hour or more of off-leash hiking.


----------



## tippykayak

hotel4dogs said:


> So I have 2 choices. I can try, at 2 years old, to do things that *should* have been done when he was 8 weeks old. Or, I can go to an excellent field trainer, and learn the proper use of an e-collar in a field work situation (I am saying this specifically for field work). Is it a short cut? Yep. You bet it is. Maybe, just maybe, with a year or more of totally positive training I can train the prey drive out of him...or not. Do I plan to take the chance? Heck no.


I think even in this situation, building those habits positively is possible and desirable. The problem is that if your main training tool is the shock from the collar, you're creating a behavior pattern that's weaker, since behaviors trained with negative reinforcement begin to degrade as soon as the negative stimulus is removed, while positively trained behaviors tend to persist more durably. 

Even if I did use an e-collar in this situation, I'd still work through a positive system in tandem with it. The e-collar might help you prevent disobedience as the dog learned the expectations, but the positive reinforcement is what's going to give you the reliability and joy.


----------



## FlyingQuizini

*Is it a short cut? Yep. You bet it is. Maybe, just maybe, with a year or more of totally positive training I can train the prey drive out of him...or not. Do I plan to take the chance? Heck no.*

Thank you for at least acknowledging that the collar is a short cut. It really grinds my fur (like that? I just made it up!) when people say that training *can't* be done another way.

IMO, so long as, like Tippy said, you're pairing your e-collar work with continued R+ training for recall around field-level distractions --- AND you are confident that you can keep yourself from pushing that button in anger... then I am perfectly willing to respect that it's how you choose to train your dog in that setting. Just keep in mind, IMO, it's a slippery slope once you strap on that collar and have the button in your hand... by that, I mean I think that as human beings, it's REALLY HARD to avoid the temptation of over-punishing out of frustration... the dog is really blowing you off... so someone takes the "I'll show him!" attitude and issues a grossly unfair and way-too-harsh correction on the collar. 

We are human. We get frustrated. I'll admit to having sat Quiz down, hands on either side of his collar and sort of growling a "KNOCK IT OFF!" at him when he's just been super over the top in a situation where I felt it was fair of me to expect him to work just a little harder to be under control. Yes, I'm a positive trainer, and most of the time, if my dog isn't handling a situation, I look at it and try to evaluate how I've failed to prepare him for it... but we're still a TEAM and I do expect effort from him and SOMETIMES, he's gonna hear it from me if I think he's not putting in his fair share.

It scares me to think how a dog "hears it" from a trainer on the other end of an e-collar.


----------



## FlyingQuizini

*Yes, I'm a positive trainer, and most of the time, if my dog isn't handling a situation, I look at it and try to evaluate how I've failed to prepare him for it... but we're still a TEAM and I do expect effort from him and SOMETIMES, he's gonna hear it from me if I think he's not putting in his fair share.*

AND, I'll fully admit that doing this makes me a sloppy R+ trainer. I *know* it's not necessary. Let's see me try that with a killer whale, or a dolphin, or a giant ape.... all animals who are successfully trained with R+ and where neg. punishment is the worst thing they'll ever encounter... and who are perfectly capable of KILLING their trainer with very little effort! It's a pitty I can't pull that off with my dear, sweet dog!


----------



## hotel4dogs

I agree totally.
My main reason for wanting the collar is to get his attention back. Period. Not as a punishment, and I'd prefer to just use the "beep", to remind him that I'm out there and if he comes back to me he's gonna be one real happy dog!
That's exactly why I won't just go out and buy a collar and start using it. I need lessons, help, guidance, etc. to be sure it's introduced correctly and done right from the beginning. 
Here's my mental picture of the ideal world...
Dog sees bunny. Dog takes off after bunny. Within 2 seconds dog is so far ahead of me I can't even call him back. BEEP on the collar. Dog thinks, "oh right, if I run back I'm gonna get a super awesome treat and loved up like crazy". Dog forgets bunny, and comes trotting back to me.
That's what I'd like to see ultimately.



tippykayak said:


> I think even in this situation, building those habits positively is possible and desirable. The problem is that if your main training tool is the shock from the collar, you're creating a behavior pattern that's weaker, since behaviors trained with negative reinforcement begin to degrade as soon as the negative stimulus is removed, while positively trained behaviors tend to persist more durably.
> 
> Even if I did use an e-collar in this situation, I'd still work through a positive system in tandem with it. The e-collar might help you prevent disobedience as the dog learned the expectations, but the positive reinforcement is what's going to give you the reliability and joy.


----------



## hotel4dogs

I enjoyed your post, thanks. Basically you described the only way in which Tito has ever been corrected, too, when I've gotten really frustrated with him and I've either popped his (buckle) collar, or growled at him. And when I've done it, I've been the one that was wrong, not him. I've corrected him harshly in anger (in obedience training) twice that I can recall. Both times I really screwed him up by doing it. I've learned.
I would never use the collar in anger. 
I would use it in FEAR. Seriously.
I've never had a dog like Tito. He simply does NOT blow me off. If he knows what I want, he's going to do it. It's that simple. He's a dream to work in any and all dog sports. I can't correct him for not knowing what I wanted, now can I?
My concern is strictly about canine instincts out in the open field, off leash. I wouldn't even consider that "blowing me off" if he took off after a rabbit or squirrel, I would just consider it "being a dog" and doing what dogs just do. That's why it really wouldn't make me angry. My husband and I often admire Tito by saying, "he's such a DOG!". By that we mean, of all the dogs we've had, he has the strongest instincts. 
But it would scare the bejesus out of me, and I'd beep his collar to remind him that I'm out there, too.





FlyingQuizini said:


> *Is it a short cut? Yep. You bet it is. Maybe, just maybe, with a year or more of totally positive training I can train the prey drive out of him...or not. Do I plan to take the chance? Heck no.*
> 
> Thank you for at least acknowledging that the collar is a short cut. It really grinds my fur (like that? I just made it up!) when people say that training *can't* be done another way.
> 
> IMO, so long as, like Tippy said, you're pairing your e-collar work with continued R+ training for recall around field-level distractions --- AND you are confident that you can keep yourself from pushing that button in anger... then I am perfectly willing to respect that it's how you choose to train your dog in that setting. Just keep in mind, IMO, it's a slippery slope once you strap on that collar and have the button in your hand... by that, I mean I think that as human beings, it's REALLY HARD to avoid the temptation of over-punishing out of frustration... the dog is really blowing you off... so someone takes the "I'll show him!" attitude and issues a grossly unfair and way-too-harsh correction on the collar.
> 
> We are human. We get frustrated. I'll admit to having sat Quiz down, hands on either side of his collar and sort of growling a "KNOCK IT OFF!" at him when he's just been super over the top in a situation where I felt it was fair of me to expect him to work just a little harder to be under control. Yes, I'm a positive trainer, and most of the time, if my dog isn't handling a situation, I look at it and try to evaluate how I've failed to prepare him for it... but we're still a TEAM and I do expect effort from him and SOMETIMES, he's gonna hear it from me if I think he's not putting in his fair share.
> 
> It scares me to think how a dog "hears it" from a trainer on the other end of an e-collar.


----------



## FlyingQuizini

hotel4dogs said:


> Here's my mental picture of the ideal world...
> Dog sees bunny. Dog takes off after bunny. Within 2 seconds dog is so far ahead of me I can't even call him back. BEEP on the collar. Dog thinks, "oh right, if I run back I'm gonna get a super awesome treat and loved up like crazy". Dog forgets bunny, and comes trotting back to me.
> That's what I'd like to see ultimately.


(Disclaimer: I'm not trying to argue; just continuing the discussion.....)

Except that, if the beep was ever paired with shock, and presumably the shock decreased the behavior of ignoring the recall word, then the beep is a classically conditioned punisher. SO, when the dog hears the beep and turns on a dime to run back to you, he's more likely thinking "Oh crap. If I don't turn back quick, this collar is going to bite me" vs. "Hey! If I turn and run back quick, I'll get a great treat and the love."

Punishment is very powerful that way.


----------



## hotel4dogs

I'm enjoying the discussion, and I'm not trying to argue either, this is a serious question...
What about the beep having been paired with a mild shock, and the recall being paired with excellent positive reinforcement?
So can the dog think, "oh crap, if I don't turn back quick, this collar is going to bite me BUT if I turn around and run back quick, I'll get a treat and love". Sort of like, he can make a decision between negative versus positive.
Or is that too much to ask?




FlyingQuizini said:


> (Disclaimer: I'm not trying to argue; just continuing the discussion.....)
> 
> Except that, if the beep was ever paired with shock, and presumably the shock decreased the behavior of ignoring the recall word, then the beep is a classically conditioned punisher. SO, when the dog hears the beep and turns on a dime to run back to you, he's more likely thinking "Oh crap. If I don't turn back quick, this collar is going to bite me" vs. "Hey! If I turn and run back quick, I'll get a great treat and the love."
> 
> Punishment is very powerful that way.


----------



## FlyingQuizini

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm enjoying the discussion, and I'm not trying to argue either, this is a serious question...
> What about the beep having been paired with a mild shock, and the recall being paired with excellent positive reinforcement?
> So can the dog think, "oh crap, if I don't turn back quick, this collar is going to bite me BUT if I turn around and run back quick, I'll get a treat and love". Sort of like, he can make a decision between negative versus positive.
> Or is that too much to ask?


I think that's a GREAT question. IMO, it totally depends on the dog. According to a certified, applied animal behaviorist friend of mine (the REAL type of behaviorist... with the Masters behind it), the science has shown that using both aversives and rewards runs a high risk of making the animal neurotic because of the ambiguity. I don't think the science has been tested formally on dogs specifically, but there have been several studies done on rats.

I don't think I buy it with ALL dogs across the board. The reason I think we can get away with it in some dogs is b/c of the relationship we have with dogs -- and there's no relationship there with the rats. I'm not even sure to what degree rats are capable of forming a relationship with humans thanks to their little rat brains. BUT, I know - b/c I've seen it happen -- that some dogs really do wig out if you try and mix aversives with punishers. In fact, I'm working with a client right now; a cross-over trainer. Used compulsion with past dogs and is now doing R+ training. I've got him using a clicker for some things, but when he gets frustrated, he sometimes really reverts back to the choke and jerk stuff. It's definitely made the dog neurotic and the neurosis has turned into an aggression problem. 

I think it's fair to say that across the board of *all animals* -- humans included, that mixing rewards with punishers *runs the risk* of ambiguity-induced stress. Whether or not the dog will be affected by it just depends on the dog.

So, back to your original question -- will the grand-ness of the party once the dog gets to you outweigh the mental aversivness of the beep due to it's association with the shock? I think the dog will have to tell you!


----------



## FlyingQuizini

*I don't turn back quick, this collar is going to bite me BUT if I turn around and run back quick, I'll get a treat and love".*

I'm not sure I believe dogs can reason like that; choosing one OVER the other. I think it's likely either one thought OR the other that will drive the behavior.


----------



## AmbikaGR

I have not read all the previous posts in this thread so if I am repeating I apologize.
In my world e-collars have their place and use. However they are never used to teach any command. The dog must know the command 100% before they ever get a correction. Their benefit is that if the dog thinks he has an option to obey or not obey a command from a distance from you, the e-collar makes it clear there is no choice in the matter. Sit means sit, come means come, etc. end of discussion. 
As to the proper level of "burn" to use, that should be determined when the dog is being "collar conditioned". You start at the lowest level and gradually increase till you "see" a reaction from the dog. With most dogs this is not vocalized (yelp) at the ideal level but there are some dogs that are more sensitive than others and will scream. On a dog like this I would NOT use an a-collar. I think you will do more harm than good. And if you think it is not doing more than "startling" the dog try it on your arm. It does not need to "painful" but it does need to cause "discomfort" to be of any use. 
Just my views on this "controversial" subject.


----------



## tippykayak

I just want to add a little thing: if you do want to use one, I think it's only fair to try it out on your own neck (not your arm or thigh or whatever) at whatever setting you want to use on the dog. You should wear it for a good 1/2 hour and give the button to a family member who will shock you randomly and without warning.

Then and only then will you experience what a dog really goes through with it.

I would say the same thing about a prong collar. You should wear it and have somebody give you a few "corrections" before you think about putting it on an animal.


----------



## Jo Ellen

tippykayak said:


> You should wear it for a good 1/2 hour and give the button to a family member who will shock you randomly and without warning.


This is how the e-fence differs from the e-collar. The e-fence isn't random and there is a warning.


----------



## Lucky's mom

tippykayak said:


> I would say the same thing about a prong collar. You should wear it and have somebody give you a few "corrections" before you think about putting it on an animal.


You don't do "corrections" with the Prong. When the dog starts to pull that is when it pinches. So I guess the way to test it on a human is to put it on and begin to pull.


----------



## tippykayak

Lucky's mom said:


> You don't do "corrections" with the Prong. When the dog starts to pull that is when it pinches. So I guess the way to test it on a human is to put it on and begin to pull.


Just so long as you do to yourself whatever you want to do with your dog, though lots of people do "correct" with chokes and prongs by yanking on them.


----------



## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

If you have decided to use them, definitely find a trainer who knows about them!!
For myself, If training my dog meant going this route, I would do a big 
"reconsider" of my whole training agenda.; I am not sure I would continue in obedinecne if I needed go go here...people I know who have gone this route have really "out of control" dogs, not ordinary training issues.


----------



## tippykayak

Jo Ellen said:


> This is how the e-fence differs from the e-collar. The e-fence isn't random and there is a warning.


Well, the "warning" only makes sense to the dog after he's been shocked a couple of times. So maybe your family member shocks you every time you say a particular word, except you have to figure out what the word is by how you're getting shocked.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Visual cues speed up the learning significantly. Are there visual cues with an e-collar?


----------



## Lucky's mom

In the natural world consequences aren't always pleasent. The natural world uses "quick fixes" ....good communication...however you want to look at it.

That is all I will say, bite my tongue.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Seriously, I'm "on the fence" so to speak, with this e-fence I just had installed. I've never used this type of training with Daisy before, I really hope she's experiencing this as a natural-world consequence, and not something coming from me


----------



## Lucky's mom

Jo Ellen said:


> Seriously, I'm "on the fence" so to speak, with this e-fence I just had installed. I've never used this type of training with Daisy before, I really hope she's experiencing this as a natural-world consequence, and not something coming from me


I'm trying to bite my tongue...but I was curious...do you have other options?


----------



## Jo Ellen

I don't feel like I do, no. Short of never giving her any freedom in our yard.


----------



## tippykayak

If you're seriously on the fence about the fence, why not try the little exercise I suggested where you wear the collar. See how traumatic you feel it is and then decide if Daisy can handle it. I'm 80% serious.


----------



## Lucky's mom

tippykayak said:


> I'm 80% serious.


 ........80%?:


----------



## Jo Ellen

I haven't "worn" the collar ... LOL, I don't think it would fit! But I have zapped myself. It didn't hurt but it definitely got my attention.


----------



## judegirl

Lucky's mom said:


> In the natural world consequences aren't always pleasent. The natural world uses "quick fixes" ....good communication...however you want to look at it.
> 
> That is all I will say, bite my tongue.



I certainly do agree with you on that.


----------



## hotel4dogs

I want to clarify, I was talking only about using it in hunt/field training, where I believe it has a very valid use, not in obedience.



Mighty Casey's Mom said:


> If you have decided to use them, definitely find a trainer who knows about them!!
> For myself, If training my dog meant going this route, I would do a big
> "reconsider" of my whole training agenda.; I am not sure I would continue in obedinecne if I needed go go here...people I know who have gone this route have really "out of control" dogs, not ordinary training issues.


----------



## liero133

do NOT use one. its animal cruelty. if you cant train your dog otherwise, give the dog to someone who can, you dont deserve such an amazing animal.

ecollars used by 99% of people would probably result in misuse.
ill never use one. even with "experts" im very sceptic.


----------



## liero133

Jo Ellen said:


> Seriously, I'm "on the fence" so to speak, with this e-fence I just had installed. I've never used this type of training with Daisy before, I really hope she's experiencing this as a natural-world consequence, and not something coming from me



yeah. im sure having regular
jolts of electricity running
trhu your body feels natural. makes sense


----------



## hotel4dogs

Can someone explain to me how the "ignore" function on the forum works?


----------



## mist

click on Edit Ignore List, and enter the user name of the person you wish to block, you'll no longer be able to see any post by this person unless quoted by someone else in another post


----------



## Ljilly28

hotel4dogs said:


> Here's my mental picture of the ideal world...
> Dog sees bunny. Dog takes off after bunny. Within 2 seconds dog is so far ahead of me I can't even call him back. BEEP on the collar. Dog thinks, "oh right, if I run back I'm gonna get a super awesome treat and loved up like crazy". Dog forgets bunny, and comes trotting back to me.
> That's what I'd like to see ultimately.


I can say, in total honesty, that all of my goldens, Acadia, Raleigh, Joplin, Finn, Tango, and Tally(and Fenway, honorary pack member) will/would veer from the bunny and recall without the beep/ecollar. But I do agree it all hinges on immediate, very careful training from day one. I have never trained a older dog with bad habits on recall under temptation, so I will definitely concede a question mark there. Raleigh, Joplin, Tango, Finn, and Fenway are all field style goldens with tremendous prey drive and athleticism, so I do know for sure that short cutting with an ecollar to get an amazing recall under stress is not neccessary with a well trained dog someone's owned since babyhood.

I think it would be neccessary for Finn to achieve his Master Hunter, though- which is why I have tremendous ambivalence about hunt tests above JH for my own dogs. I don't really have a problem with Hotel4dogs or Hank(Ambika) using an ecollar after careful CC in field work.

I do have a problem with anyone using an ecollar to demand every day basic obedience from a pet dog. To me, that need for the ecollar is really a need to spend three twenty minute sessions a day positively teaching recall, to play recall games, and take a fun recall class at a local obedience school. It is a sign to get the dog an hour or two of off leash "sporting dog" level running/playing. The salient point for me is Quiz's- that an ecollar used as a short cut is cheating: cheating the dog out of a good, bonding education. When I read the phrase "scorch mark" it makes my stomach queasy.


----------



## hotel4dogs

If I were to start over with Tito, I would do a lot of things differently in obedience training. I think Tito could have been (who knows, maybe will be, he's only 2) an OTCH dog if I had trained him differently from the time he was 8 weeks old. I know better for the next dog, and I mean that very sincerely. My training methods have really evolved in the 2 years I've had the Tito Monster. He's the first dog I've ever trained past a CD, and he's the first dog I've trained at all in 10 years. He has taught me a lot.
When we got Tito, I never had any plans for showing him in ANYTHING. He was just going to be a pet dog to do the playgroups at my pet hotel. But as things started unfolding, and he started showing potential in various things, well, it changed. I didn't make the decision to show him in obedience until he was about 8 months old, and I didn't make the decision to show him in breed until he was about 16 months old. I still haven't made the decision about a JH/SH etc. So of course I've lost a lot of valuable time. Most dogs who are going to be serious contenders in any of those sports are started at 8 weeks old.
I *think* Tito would probably veer from the bunny (after the initial bolt) and come back to me. But it scares me because it only takes once for him to be gone. I love him too much to take that chance. I would much rather subject him to an occasional collar beep than take the chance on losing him. I just want it to fall back on, after he and I have been carefully trained in the correct use of it, for the once when he takes off on me.
Never say "never". Never say "my dog would never take off". Some day, something just might catch his eye that you never figured on. Or worse yet, he might get spooked and take off. 
I need a safety net. I'm just too fearful to go out without one.
But I agree totally on not using an e-collar for basic obedience training. I'm talking about something that may potentially save my dog's life, not something that will make him sit or stop jumping on people. I think there's a huge difference.



Ljilly28 said:


> I can say, in total honesty, that all of my goldens, Acadia, Raleigh, Joplin, Finn, Tango, and Tally(and Fenway, honorary pack member) will/would veer from the bunny and recall without the beep/ecollar. But I do agree it all hinges on immediate, very careful training from day one. I have never trained a older dog with bad habits on recall under temptation, so I will definitely concede a question mark there. Raleigh, Joplin, Tango, Finn, and Fenway are all field style goldens with tremendous prey drive and athleticism, so I do know for sure that short cutting with an ecollar to get an amazing recall under stress is not neccessary with a well trained dog someone's owned since babyhood.
> 
> I think it would be neccessary for Finn to achieve his Master Hunter, though- which is why I have tremendous ambivalence about hunt tests above JH for my own dogs. I don't really have a problem with Hotel4dogs or Hank(Ambika) using an ecollar after careful CC in field work.
> 
> I do have a problem with anyone using an ecollar to demand every day basic obedience from a pet dog. To me, that need for the ecollar is really a need to spend three twenty minute sessions a day positively teaching recall, to play recall games, and take a fun recall class at a local obedience school. It is a sign to get the dog an hour or two of off leash "sporting dog" level running/playing. The salient point for me is Quiz's- that an ecollar used as a short cut is cheating: cheating the dog out of a good, bonding education. When I read the phrase "scorch mark" it makes my stomach queasy.


----------



## hotel4dogs

thank you!



mist said:


> click on Edit Ignore List, and enter the user name of the person you wish to block, you'll no longer be able to see any post by this person unless quoted by someone else in another post


----------



## mist

Your welcome.


Electric collars are banned in Wales where I live, we do have spray collars that produce a fine mist that distracts your dog from unwanted behaviour. I've never had call to use them, Ollie has his gold good citizen and Gracie is my obedience dog, both have excellent recall and distance control, and both of my younger dogs mimic what ever the other two do 

http://www.doggiesolutions.co.uk/petsafe-deluxe-spray-collar-14210-0.html


----------



## Ljilly28

I admire greatly performance dogs who are trained "amish"(no ecollar) like Finn's uncle and Comet's half brother Ranger who is UCDX HR SR UDT, SH, WCX * all without CC- just with shoe leather, love, and a good attitude. Dusty on our forum competes well with no ecollar in field as well. 

I don't have a problem with experienced dog people like Hotel4dogs and Ambika using the ecollar after proper CC, but I would never use one on my own dogs. 

I do have a HUGE problem with the pet owners I see on a daily basis at the beach and in the woods shocking their dogs in place of spending the needed hours to teach them impulse control and how to work well, in a partnership, with humans during daily life. 

The ecollar is a powerful technology, and I'd rather feel the rewards of hard work than take a short cut that scares, burns, or punishes my dogs.


----------



## tippykayak

hotel4dogs said:


> Never say "never". Never say "my dog would never take off". Some day, something just might catch his eye that you never figured on. Or worse yet, he might get spooked and take off.


Anything that interesting or that terrifying would cause my no-pain dogs to simply not feel a collar shock. I've had one tear the skin of his pads clean off and not show it because he was in working mode, and I've had one play fetch in the rain with a four-inch gash on his leg that we didn't find until we were toweling him off. I don't have a lot of experience with e-collars, but I can't imagine they can break that drive when no other physical pain does.

When my dogs get frightened, they come back to me, or if they're hurt, they stay where they are until I get there. I concede that there might be some attractive smell (estrus comes to mind) that might override their habit temporarily, but in years of hiking with the dogs (and LJilly's been doing it for longer and with more dogs than I have), I've never run across anything (including a female in heat) that caused a dog to ignore me for more than a few seconds, and those few seconds were only with young dogs in training.

So "never" is a pretty reliable statement in this case.


----------



## my4goldens

I think the e-collar like any training tool if used correctly and in the right circumstances has a place in dog training. One of the things that keep me from doing field training is my irrational fear that off leash in a field situation my dog is going to take off and never come back. Now he is a trained obedience dog, this would "probably" never happen, but I guess my fear stems from growing up on a farm back in the 50's, and seeing pet dogs run over on our gravel road. I need to have more confidence in my dog and in my training of him. I heard an experienced trainer say once, my dog has a 100% reliable recall. At our training facility this dog ran out of the ring, hid under a chair, and she had to physically go and get him and bring him back into the ring. There went her 100% recall. I am not too familiar with e-collar conditioning, but think probably if I were to do it, I would want to be trained myself in its usage and then condition my dog with help from an experienced field trainer. Now chances of me doing it are pretty slim, a day of walking in the fields with my dog is attractive but not sure if my poor back is up to the task. Now as far as the electric fences go I have a feeling that my very prey driven dogs would take off and blast thru them after a squirrel or other critter, get buzzed and figure, no way am I coming back thru that. I have seen them work, just not sure they would be effective with my dogs. Wood fence it is for us.


----------



## Bogey's Mom

Ljilly28 said:


> I can say, in total honesty, that all of my goldens, Acadia, Raleigh, Joplin, Finn, Tango, and Tally(and Fenway, honorary pack member) will/would veer from the bunny and recall without the beep/ecollar.


Wow!! Can you please take Bogey and any future puppies I have?! We are still working on recall, and I never even dream he'll be that reliable.


----------



## paula bedard

To Jo, if she peeks back into the thread...The boundary becomes known to the dog and you should be able to let Daisy out without her collar and she'll still obey the perimeter. Sam stopped wearing his collar after he learned the fence...he never left the yard for the 12 years he was with me (he learned the fence at 6 months old). He would only leave the perimeter if I put his leash on him, then he knew we were going for a walk outside his 'stay zone.' Ike is not as observant as Sam, so does cross the line once in a blue moon. As I said before, we installed our own fence, it does not deliver as powerful a shock as a professionally installed fence, and my husband and son did wear the collar and go through the line. They said ours feels no different than licking a 9V battery...a quick tingly jolt, not bad. I think it's the flags, not the collar that really enforces the fence.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Daisy understands the flag boundary very well, I can tell by her behavior around them, especially the flags that mark the area she used to be able to run through before the fence was put in.

Right now it really depends on the level of temptation for her. Twice she's run through on Level 3, which really surprised me. 99.9% of the time she's got it ... unless something really great is going on next door.


----------



## paula bedard

Does your collar have a second set of prongs that are shorter? If you're not using the shorter prongs, you might want to. They make less of a contact with a thick coated dog, so therefore not the same intensity of shock. You can also loosen her collar so the prongs do not make a firm contact. She'll still get the beeps without your fear of her getting shocked. I'd suggest leaving the flags up permanently if you can. Ours are, but we're in the woods.


----------



## hotel4dogs

I'm too scared to find out if Tito's recall is 99.9% reliable, or 100%. I don't ever want to look back and say, well, he's missing or dead but at least he was never shocked by a collar.
I sincerely hope that you are correct that there will never be anything, ever, that will cause one of your dogs to run off. 
But you do pose an interesting question, how reliable is the collar recall? And by the same token, is it inhumane if they didn't even feel it?
I'm confusing even myself here.





tippykayak said:


> Anything that interesting or that terrifying would cause my no-pain dogs to simply not feel a collar shock. I've had one tear the skin of his pads clean off and not show it because he was in working mode, and I've had one play fetch in the rain with a four-inch gash on his leg that we didn't find until we were toweling him off. I don't have a lot of experience with e-collars, but I can't imagine they can break that drive when no other physical pain does.
> 
> When my dogs get frightened, they come back to me, or if they're hurt, they stay where they are until I get there. I concede that there might be some attractive smell (estrus comes to mind) that might override their habit temporarily, but in years of hiking with the dogs (and LJilly's been doing it for longer and with more dogs than I have), I've never run across anything (including a female in heat) that caused a dog to ignore me for more than a few seconds, and those few seconds were only with young dogs in training.
> 
> So "never" is a pretty reliable statement in this case.


----------



## FlyingQuizini

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm too scared to find out if Tito's recall is 99.9% reliable, or 100%. I don't ever want to look back and say, well, he's missing or dead but at least he was never shocked by a collar.
> I sincerely hope that you are correct that there will never be anything, ever, that will cause one of your dogs to run off.
> But you do pose an interesting question, how reliable is the collar recall? And by the same token, is it inhumane if they didn't even feel it?
> I'm confusing even myself here.


Do you think that the collar will give you 100% reliability when it comes to recall? In my mind, the collar may (in the dog working to avoid the correction) improve a recall, but I think it's a stretch to say it will create a 100% reliable one. Any chance the collar is giving you a false sense of security?


----------



## hotel4dogs

yes, that's why I was pondering the reliability of the collar. I guess I think of it as a back up plan, and hope that between the 2 methods I can get better response than with either alone.
I think that's what I think.




FlyingQuizini said:


> Do you think that the collar will give you 100% reliability when it comes to recall? In my mind, the collar may (in the dog working to avoid the correction) improve a recall, but I think it's a stretch to say it will create a 100% reliable one. Any chance the collar is giving you a false sense of security?


----------



## tippykayak

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm too scared to find out if Tito's recall is 99.9% reliable, or 100%. I don't ever want to look back and say, well, he's missing or dead but at least he was never shocked by a collar.
> I sincerely hope that you are correct that there will never be anything, ever, that will cause one of your dogs to run off.
> But you do pose an interesting question, how reliable is the collar recall? And by the same token, is it inhumane if they didn't even feel it?
> I'm confusing even myself here.


I just think running off completely is kind of alien to their mindset. If they run out ahead on a trail, we'll hide behind a boulder and wait for them to figure out we've disappeared. Then they get all excited to play "find." We do something similar when they turn up the wrong path. We'll go the regular way until they notice and come flying back.

Ultimately, I see your point. I'd certainly shock my dog to protect his life, but currently I can have my cake and eat it too. We have reliable recall solely on voice/whistle command. They leave other dogs, "prey," rotting carcasses, and, hardest of all, open water at the first whistle.


----------



## tippykayak

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm too scared to find out if Tito's recall is 99.9% reliable, or 100%. I don't ever want to look back and say, well, he's missing or dead but at least he was never shocked by a collar.
> I sincerely hope that you are correct that there will never be anything, ever, that will cause one of your dogs to run off.
> But you do pose an interesting question, how reliable is the collar recall? And by the same token, is it inhumane if they didn't even feel it?
> I'm confusing even myself here.


Oh, and PS - if the collar was set high enough to break through my old dog Gus's working drive, it would definitely have been set at a cruel level of pain. If a jagged gash on the leg didn't hurt enough to stop him or even slow him down, he could have been burned by a shock and still not stopped.


----------



## BearValley

Wow, this is a great thread! My hat is off to all of the posters for making it so informative and having open minds.

And I greatly admire what Tippy and Jill (amongst others) have accomplished - I have no excuses.

Thanks all!


----------



## Emma&Tilly

I don't think anybody could possibly state that they have 100% recall (not that anyone here is...I mean in general) 

Neither of my dogs have 100% recall, I know that for a fact. They are off the lead for both their walks every single day but would I consider using a electric collar to gain their absolute and complete control...not on your nelly! I absolutely agree with Tippykayak's suggestion of strapping an electric collar around your own neck and giving somebody else the control...although that isn't quite what your dog experiences as you must remember that the dog has absolutely no comprehension of what is causing the sudden pain. We know and understand what is happening and of course know we can stop it as soon as we please. Your dog does not have that luxury. 

In my opinion there is a HUGE difference between a dog that doesn't quite have a bullet proof recall and a dog that will actually run away. A HUGE difference. Tilly is a very independent dog, she naturally does not feel the need to stay as close to me as Harry does on walks, BUT she always checks on us and even though she isn't exactly back like a shot when we call her she has a remarkable ability to always know exactly where we are. I know she is paying very close attention every single minute she is free, I frequently change direction or hide out of view...she cannot be fooled. Harry shows this attention very obviously (he actually listens to my footsteps...he can be walking/running 50ft ahead of me and even with the softest footing I can manage he will still dart back to me of he hears me stop) and has a super recall. I don't doubt that if a hare shot out infront of his path he would chase it...BUT I know he would stop very shortly after. I am as sure as I possibly could be that he would never run away. If the thought of leaving me wasn't enough to stop him I know for sure a sudden pain around his neck wouldn't stop him either...or the pain would have to be so intense that it would be absolutely inhumane.

Like I said, I have never seen an elecrtic collar on any dog, and I see many, many dogs everyday enjoying their walks off lead in the woodland and fields. I'm sure all these dogs I see enjoying their walks do not have a bullet proof recall either but to me the danger is just not there to warrant giving my dog an electric shock to achieve a robotic recall...I know the area and I know my dogs well enough to ensure that.


----------



## Duke's Momma

tippykayak said:


> I just want to add a little thing: if you do want to use one, I think it's only fair to try it out on your own neck (not your arm or thigh or whatever) at whatever setting you want to use on the dog. You should wear it for a good 1/2 hour and give the button to a family member who will shock you randomly and without warning.


Be sure to put on some sort of thin material to mock hair. And, put 2 fingers between the collar and your skin.

That's what I did because that's what I did with Duke. Only using an e-color isn't random. When trained, this is what we did (if I remember correctly) Long lead (like a lunge lead for horses) Let the puppy explore and forget about you. Once - command "come". Next time "come" with a tiny hit from collar and tug on lead. Then, make it exciting and welcoming when they come. With Duke, this took maybe 4 times only. Training done.

I felt this was way more humane than a choke collar, prong collar (used with the rubber tips), regular collar and worked better than the gentle leader. He heals better off lead than on. Whenever he has the collar on (again, when we walk) I don't even have the darn thing turned on. Just for safety. He's very obedient.

All that said, it was my trainer that suggested it and trained me on it first. I'm glad we've got it. He never wears it swimming or around the house. On occassion he will wear it outside if he's been digging. When he goes to the "dig" I hit him once (tiny hit) and he does not go back there.

The way it was explained to me was that dogs associate that "hit" with the area it happened. So, that "dig" place is bad. Momma is good. I was too stupid (only having one other dog in my adult life) to know anything else, but I still feel we were in good hands.

As a matter of fact, am going back for a refresher course of obedience middle of September. Both for him and me.


----------



## fostermom

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm too scared to find out if Tito's recall is 99.9% reliable, or 100%. I don't ever want to look back and say, well, he's missing or dead but at least he was never shocked by a collar.
> I sincerely hope that you are correct that there will never be anything, ever, that will cause one of your dogs to run off.
> But you do pose an interesting question, how reliable is the collar recall? And by the same token, is it inhumane if they didn't even feel it?
> I'm confusing even myself here.


I would never pretend that my dogs have 100% recall. But my feeling is, if one of my boys was shocked after I had called them to me, they might become scared and bolt to get away from the pain. And if a dog bolt out of that type of fear, there is a possibilty that you will not see them again. Or at least have to search for quite some time. Plus, they would associate my voice with that pain. I am not willing to risk that.

I also take my dogs hiking a couple of times a month, offleash. They are pretty darn reliable about staying near me, especially Jasper who really could be offleash all the time if it were legal. They normally don't get more than 10-20 feet away from me and come when I call them back. Of course, when they come when called with the command "come", they get a biscuit. First one there gets the most, so they tend to race each other to come to me when I call them.

If I remember correctly, Tito is your sensitive boy. He takes verbal corrections hard. What makes you think that an electronic collar will not affect him even more deeply? I don't mean that in a mean way, it's just my take on this discussion.


----------



## Duke's Momma

liero133 said:


> do NOT use one. its animal cruelty. if you cant train your dog otherwise, give the dog to someone who can, you dont deserve such an amazing animal.
> 
> ecollars used by 99% of people would probably result in misuse.
> ill never use one. even with "experts" im very sceptic.


Wow! No comment.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Yes, Tito is very sensitive. But I think that with him being away from me when the collar beeps him is the key to it. I'm not the one doing it. The collar is the one doing it. So he needs to seek me out.
At least I think???



fostermom said:


> I would never pretend that my dogs have 100% recall. But my feeling is, if one of my boys was shocked after I had called them to me, they might become scared and bolt to get away from the pain. And if a dog bolt out of that type of fear, there is a possibilty that you will not see them again. Or at least have to search for quite some time. Plus, they would associate my voice with that pain. I am not willing to risk that.
> 
> I also take my dogs hiking a couple of times a month, offleash. They are pretty darn reliable about staying near me, especially Jasper who really could be offleash all the time if it were legal. They normally don't get more than 10-20 feet away from me and come when I call them back. Of course, when they come when called with the command "come", they get a biscuit. First one there gets the most, so they tend to race each other to come to me when I call them.
> 
> If I remember correctly, Tito is your sensitive boy. He takes verbal corrections hard. What makes you think that an electronic collar will not affect him even more deeply? I don't mean that in a mean way, it's just my take on this discussion.


----------



## hotel4dogs

that's why I asked how to ignore....



Duke's Momma said:


> Wow! No comment.


----------



## Ljilly28

I tried to think of something that could so panic the goldens in the woods that they couldnt recall. A black bear, a gun shot, thunder/lightening, a moose, bees/hornets? We've encountered all of these in our years of daily outings. Temptations are more likely, but still. . . they might wheel and follow a deer/rabbit a few hundred yards but they come around, hard to port and return even if not recalled. . .To me, a golden is a dog bred to the bone to be my timeless companion in the natural world. It is the golden's life'swork to check in with me and check on me as we walk in fields, forest, or any natural landscape. People walked/ hunted with dogs long before ecollars were invented. Maybe you duck behind a tree and hide from a pup who is too inattentive in the woods so he has to hunt for you, maybe you reward with treats or praise the dog who checks in or comes when called. . . but mainly it seems natural & simple for my dogs to be in a nice balance between exploring the woods and finding me.


----------



## tippykayak

Duke's Momma said:


> Be sure to put on some sort of thin material to mock hair. And, put 2 fingers between the collar and your skin.


I can see the thin material (though the prongs are designed to poke through the hair and get to the skin), but why the two fingers?


----------



## Jo Ellen

That's very interesting, Jill. Actually, I have found Daisy's greatest recall is when she has the most freedom during our walks along the river trail.


----------



## tippykayak

Ljilly28 said:


> I tried to think of something that could so panic the goldens in the woods that they couldnt recall. A black bear, a gun shot, thunder/lightening, a moose, bees/hornets? We've encountered all of these in our years of daily outings. Temptations are more likely, but still. . . they might wheel and follow a deer/rabbit a few hundred yards but they come around, hard to port and return even if not recalled. . .To me, a golden is a dog bred to the bone to be my timeless companion in the natural world. It is the golden's life'swork to check in with me and check on me as we walk in fields, forest, or any natural landscape. People walked/ hunted with dogs long before ecollars were invented. Maybe you duck behind a tree and hide from a pup who is too inattentive in the woods so he has to hunt for you, maybe you reward with treats or praise the dog who checks in or comes when called. . . but mainly it seems natural & simple for my dogs to be in a nice balance between exploring the woods and finding me.


Beautifully said, Jill. This is why I will always have retrievers and I will always trust that bond between us, even with the high energy, high prey drive guys. Even though I got Jax after the fear/avoidance period when we ingrain the "where's dad?" behavior in the woods, he took right to it.

This is one of those breed-specific things. I wouldn't be making this argument about a Husky or a scent hound.


----------



## Duke's Momma

hotel4dogs said:


> that's why I asked how to ignore....


I figured. Thanks for asking! I'm using it now, too.


----------



## Duke's Momma

tippykayak said:


> I can see the thin material (though the prongs are designed to poke through the hair and get to the skin), but why the two fingers?


That's what my trainer said - so it doesn't have direct contact but still buzzes a little I guess. The way she showed me is to tighten it with one finger directly behind the ears. It will settle where it needs to be on his neck then and there's 2 fingers. It's a tight 2 fingers, but 2 fingers none the less.


----------



## moverking

tippykayak said:


> I can see the thin material (though the prongs are designed to poke through the hair and get to the skin), but why the two fingers?


It's actually being able to slip one finger between the end of the prong and the dog's skin so that the prong doesn't damage the skin when the shock occurs.

Now *I *feel pretty barbaric to be using an invisible fence....but at least I've started to physically fence my 3 acres...won't be done for another year though.


----------



## Emma&Tilly

Duke's Momma said:


> I figured. Thanks for asking! I'm using it now, too.


Don't forget that electric shock collars are illegal in many countries as they are considered an inhumane way to train animals (obviously...else they wouldn't be illegal) Something that is commonplace in one area and illegal in another is bound to cause a range of reactions. Absolute horror at the thought of shocking a golden retriever (or any dog) on a dog lovers forum is not to be unexpected...I wouldn't have thought anyway! 

Not that I am trying to say you shouldn't ignore them from here on in, thats entirely up to you of course.


----------



## tippykayak

Duke's Momma said:


> That's what my trainer said - so it doesn't have direct contact but still buzzes a little I guess. The way she showed me is to tighten it with one finger directly behind the ears. It will settle where it needs to be on his neck then and there's 2 fingers. It's a tight 2 fingers, but 2 fingers none the less.


Wait, so you've never had the prongs on the actual skin of your neck? You put a finger in between? Isn't that just shocking your finger?


----------



## tippykayak

Jo Ellen said:


> That's very interesting, Jill. Actually, I have found Daisy's greatest recall is when she has the most freedom during our walks along the river trail.


I think that's one of the secrets to the reliability of recall in dogs that are constantly off leash in the woods. Recall ends the fun about 1/1000 of the time. Mostly it _increases_ the fun because you get to sprint, race your brother, play "find," get a cookie, hear some praise, and sprint back out to some mud or a smell.

I think if your dog only hears "come" at the end of play or to call him away from something cool, it gets undermined over time. Even when we're at the dog park, I'll call the pups to me one at a time for a cookie or praise and then let them go back to play. They probably come and check in ten or twenty times before we call them to leave, so it just feels very normal to them.


----------



## tippykayak

moverking said:


> It's actually being able to slip one finger between the end of the prong and the dog's skin so that the prong doesn't damage the skin when the shock occurs.
> 
> Now *I *feel pretty barbaric to be using an invisible fence....but at least I've started to physically fence my 3 acres...won't be done for another year though.


The prong of the e-colalr is supposed to hang away from the skin by a little bit? How do you ensure that distance when the dog is running around? Is it possible to give the dog a greater shock than you want to if the collar has ridden up some?


----------



## Duke's Momma

tippykayak said:


> Wait, so you've never had the prongs on the actual skin of your neck? You put a finger in between? Isn't that just shocking your finger?


lol 
I'm not making myself clear I don't think. :doh: I put the collar on Duke 1 finger width behind his ears. Then, when it settles on his neck, I can slip 2 fingers between the collar and his neck - tightly.

When I tried it on myself, I didn't do the 2 fingers thing, I was just trying to explain that in order for it to be close to what the dog feels you need to slip 2 fingers between the collar and the skin.

I didn't know that it was actually 2 fingers from the prongs to the skin - which is close I'm thinking anyway.

However, I was just thinking of the time that we had an electric fence around our pasture when we first moved in. I was scratching Dee's horses neck and his head just kept getting lower and lower until his chin touched the fence.  you want to talk about a JOLT! It knocked me on my a$$. I kid you not. OMG! & it didn't even touch me. I know, they weigh 1,500# vs 75 but still! 

I digress.


----------



## fostermom

tippykayak said:


> I think that's one of the secrets to the reliability of recall in dogs that are constantly off leash in the woods. Recall ends the fun about 1/1000 of the time. Mostly it _increases_ the fun because you get to sprint, race your brother, play "find," get a cookie, hear some praise, and sprint back out to some mud or a smell.
> 
> I think if your dog only hears "come" at the end of play or to call him away from something cool, it gets undermined over time. Even when we're at the dog park, I'll call the pups to me one at a time for a cookie or praise and then let them go back to play. They probably come and check in ten or twenty times before we call them to leave, so it just feels very normal to them.


I never really thought about it that way, but that makes total sense. My dogs are used to being off leash in a few different areas and I will call them to me periodically, but it almost never is to end the fun of running around. It's usually just a "check in with Mom" type of thing, and most of the time they get a really good treat. And then they are off again.


----------



## moverking

tippykayak said:


> The prong of the e-colalr is supposed to hang away from the skin by a little bit? How do you ensure that distance when the dog is running around? Is it possible to give the dog a greater shock than you want to if the collar has ridden up some?


This is hard to explain...the prongs ideally should be in light contact with the skin, but not embedded deeply. Of course movement can reposition them. But my two don't run through the fence, if they get zipped (and that's been probably twice in the last year) it's because they are leaning at the perimeter to get to, say, a cat turd:yuck: or a toy out of reach. 

That being said...I rarely even put Sadie's collar on. She comes to me if she hears Loo's collar beeping. Now, Loocie? She will stand at the edge and lean past the beep into the vibration mode and stay there...not getting shocked. She will turn her head in different positions testing the strength of the vibration...when she feels it lessen...due to position of the collar or a waning battery...she proceeds on out:doh: And sits on the other side looking at me.
Give me the psychology on that!


----------



## tippykayak

moverking said:


> Give me the psychology on that!


She's incredibly smart and also stoic?


----------



## hotel4dogs

For Jill and Tippy, please don't take this as an attack, it's a serious question. Do you have the same level of comfort with your dogs off leash on a city street, for example? Or only when out in the woods type of situation?



tippykayak said:


> Beautifully said, Jill. This is why I will always have retrievers and I will always trust that bond between us, even with the high energy, high prey drive guys. Even though I got Jax after the fear/avoidance period when we ingrain the "where's dad?" behavior in the woods, he took right to it.
> 
> This is one of those breed-specific things. I wouldn't be making this argument about a Husky or a scent hound.


----------



## moverking

tippykayak said:


> She's incredibly smart and also stoic?


Brian, she's not getting shocked...I'd never let that happen. And I don't let her play 'vibrate the dog' either unless my attention is diverted (they are never out without me). The fence gives me a second layer of protection to add to recalls and their 'just happy to be outside with me' nature. I've never used a collar for training purposes. On the trail they have a great recall with multiple returns for no reason at all but to say 'Thanks Mom'. 

But oh, I can't wait to finish the real fence!


----------



## moverking

tippykayak said:


> Wait, so you've never had the prongs on the actual skin of your neck? You put a finger in between? Isn't that just shocking your finger?


LOL, well, I had an EMG done a couple of weeks ago on both hands and all the way up to the base of my neck. The most barbaric test I've ever seen in my life. And when I went home, to illustrate this point to my family, I held on to the electrified wire around my garden for 10 seconds without flinching. Piece of cake.
Does that count, lololol?

I'm not trying to be flip. A shock is a shock is a shock. It does not fit in the realm of positive training. I'm just trying to get sympathy for myself:


----------



## tippykayak

hotel4dogs said:


> For Jill and Tippy, please don't take this as an attack, it's a serious question. Do you have the same level of comfort with your dogs off leash on a city street, for example? Or only when out in the woods type of situation?


I wouldn't take them off leash on a city street, but that's not because of a lack of faith in their recall, but rather that I wouldn't want to have to give the level of attention to their behavior that it would require. I'm sure I could train a "heel" that would stand up to a sidewalk, but I don't trust myself to give them perfect enough directions.

I do see people in our city walking Goldens off-leash on the sidewalks, so I know it's possible to simply train the habit of staying on the sidewalk and not running into the street. 

That said, I do take the dogs out front to the car without leashes. It's not a particularly busy street, but it's not quiet either. If there's a dog on the other side of the street, they need the practice of paying attention to me instead. I need them to be able to hold a stay in that kind of situation. You have to be _so_ careful, though, so I wouldn't want to do it for a whole walk.


----------



## tippykayak

moverking said:


> Brian, she's not getting shocked...I'd never let that happen. And I don't let her play 'vibrate the dog' either unless my attention is diverted (they are never out without me). The fence gives me a second layer of protection to add to recalls and their 'just happy to be outside with me' nature. I've never used a collar for training purposes. On the trail they have a great recall with multiple returns for no reason at all but to say 'Thanks Mom'.
> 
> But oh, I can't wait to finish the real fence!


Oh, I didn't think she was getting shocked, just that she didn't really fear it either. And I love that freely given recall on the trail. It's just so fun.


----------



## katieanddusty

Why does it even matter whether you can have a dog off-leash on a city street? It's illegal, unnecessary, and pretty dumb.

I've run dogs in agility with not much of a fence between them and a parking lot or street, but I have absolute confidence that my dogs will stay in the ring. Boo doesn't care about anything other than food and tennis balls. Dusty can get into critter-chasing moods when we're hiking, but he doesn't notice them when he's doing agility.

When I'm setting up or tearing down the stuff, if there's nothing nearby to tie them to, I'll just tell them to stay close and they will (a really uptight AKC rep could get mad about that, but when it's too hot for them to be in the car, I don't see where else the dogs are supposed to be). That's just routine - they're used to hanging around, they're used to being at agility trials so they don't really care about anything that's going on, they know that after a few minutes I'll be taking them to the air-conditioned car and giving them the leftover treats, etc. I just nicely remind them to stay if they start looking like they're going somewhere.

I guess my dogs just generally like me and care more about being with me than about the environmental distractions we regularly encounter, and I know their limits (like Boo can run out to the car from the house off-leash, Dusty needs me holding his collar so he doesn't go look for the neighbor's cat). All of their limits are manageable - I really don't mind holding his collar to take him to the car, and I don't think it'd be humane to use an e-collar on him when there's an easy way around the problem.

One time Dusty was sleeping next to my chair at an agility trial, I had to go walk the course so I told my mother to watch him, she forgot he was there and went to the bathroom, and he was just lying there all alone watching me when I came back. That's the kind of good old buddy he is.


----------



## Ljilly28

Oh heck no, I would never chance Finn, Tally, or Tango off leash on a city street; it would be illegal, pointless, and risky. We do go down to the Old Port and to LLBean in front of the huge boot statue to proof sit/stays and down/ stays though. We have 2 acres fenced, and I would never even let them out in the front yard with the cars rushing by on Falmouth Road. The proximity to cars just changes the risk/benefits of off leash in my mind. I also wouldnt put an ecollar on them and have them off leash in the city either! They are good chilling out at outdoor cafes, but I still keep them on leash. I did have one dog however, Joplin AKA Old Bones- who lived to be 15 1/2. I did jog with him in New Haven off leash- he never ever once left me. Ask Tippykayak. We have some in between situations- like the big parking lot at Ferry Beach, which just takes lots of vigilance and common sense or the days they come to classes at the community college where I teach English. They were always off leash too in the quads and classrooms at Pomfret School- a prep school with 450 friendly people milling around. The beach really tests the dogs' recalls bc their dog "friends" come and go, little kids have ice cream, and friendly strangers call them to come over.


----------



## HovawartMom

The E-collar is a great tool if you have been taught how to use it,by an actual trainer!.
I've never had the need to use one,on any of my dogs and in general,I'm not a fan of it!.
This is not a tool that you just put on and ZAP and I've seen way too many people just do that!.As a result,many of the dogs were skiddish and edgy!.


----------



## hotel4dogs

I've had a whole body EMG done (they only do one side of your body). It's not a picnic, I'll sure grant you that!!
Sympathy from me for sure!




moverking said:


> LOL, well, I had an EMG done a couple of weeks ago on both hands and all the way up to the base of my neck. The most barbaric test I've ever seen in my life. And when I went home, to illustrate this point to my family, I held on to the electrified wire around my garden for 10 seconds without flinching. Piece of cake.
> Does that count, lololol?
> 
> I'm not trying to be flip. A shock is a shock is a shock. It does not fit in the realm of positive training. I'm just trying to get sympathy for myself:


----------



## moverking

hotel4dogs said:


> I've had a whole body EMG done


:slamdoor:

Never in a million years. And I am not a wuss.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Don't get me wrong, I don't EVER have my dogs off leash on a city street type situation. I didn't mean to imply that I do.
i was just curious if your trust in your dogs' attention to you, and your trust in their recall, extended to a high risk situation.
Mine doesn't with my dogs.


----------



## tippykayak

Yeah - just to be clear, I haven't and wouldn't take the dogs off-leash in the city. I'm confident that their behavior would hold up to the distractions, but it's much easier and safer just to have them on the leash. I do see plenty of off-leash dogs on the semi-urban, busy streets outside downtown New Haven, and their owners seem pretty confident. I'm not saying I advocate that kind of behavior, but I do believe the level of consistency that would be necessary is completely attainable.


----------



## Ljilly28

I'm struggling with something just I saw at the Show N Go. A woman was proofing her doberman with an ecollar after (admitedly) he was awful in the ring, and she made him absolutely shriek. I felt sick to my stomach for hours. Later, i saw her petting the dog- and I just didnt get it- the whole relationship between them. I DO understand that field trial dogs realistically are going to be collar conditioned and that this woman was abusing rather than using her tool properly; however if I were in charge of AKC( which obviously, I will never be!), I would make the use of an ecollar cheating as far as the obedience ring goes. My dog scored a 198 in Open and I am not a very good trainer, so that leads me to believe that anyone who takes the time can train an open dog without an e collar.


----------



## fostermom

Ljilly28 said:


> I'm struggling with something just I saw at the Show N Go. A woman was proofing her doberman with an ecollar after (admitedly) he was awful in the ring, and she made him absolutely shriek. I felt sick to my stomach for hours. Later, i saw her petting the dog- and I just didnt get it- the whole relationship between them. I DO understand that field trial dogs realistically are going to be collar conditioned and that this woman was abusing rather than using her tool properly; however if I were in charge of AKC( which obviously, I will never be!), I would make the use of an ecollar cheating as far as the obedience ring goes. My dog scored a 198 in Open and I am not a very good trainer, so that leads me to believe that anyone who takes the time can train an open dog without an e collar.


That is disturbing! I guess that's one of the reasons I am so anti shock collar. So many people use it improperly.


----------



## AmbikaGR

I Jill, I will try to "explain" what "could" be the case in this instance.

First prong and e-collars ARE illegal at any AKC santioned event and niether are allowed any where on the grounds during an event. Obviously this was not an AKC sanctioned match and the hosting club did not prohibit their use.

Now for this particular incident. Some dog react differently to different levels of stimulus. Some of the biggest most "macho" type dogs I have seen scream when set to the lowest setting. Just because a dog vocalizes does not mean it was being abused, honestly it does not. 
And I honestly do not think it is fair to compare your dog's bidability and trainability to that of another dog's regardless of breed. But in this case comparing a Golden to a Dobie is like comparing apples and pomergranates.


----------



## Ljilly28

I guess I simply don't believe that kind of vocalization/scream does not mean great distress in the dog. 

Despite the rules, pinch collars are fairly common to see at AKC shows, though not in the actual ring. You can even buy collars with fancy studs etc that hide the prongs on prong collars.

I don't believe that any dog, regardless of breed, whether apple or pomegranate, who requires an ecollar to learn basic obedience should be competing. I realize others feel differently.

However, I understand that a properly CC'd dog is not being treated cruelly.


----------



## fostermom

Ljilly28 said:


> I guess I simply don't believe that kind of vocalization/scream does not mean great distress.


I agree. One a smaller scale, if you step on one dog's toes they might yelp or cry, but if you step on another dog's toes, they don't make a noise. I don't believe it hurts the dog who doesn't cry out any less.


----------



## Swampcollie

Ljilly28 said:


> I guess I simply don't believe that kind of vocalization/scream does not mean great distress.


AmbikaGR is correct. Vocalizing has nothing to do with distress or abuse. You're making an assumption based upon your own dog. I assure you every dog is different and many dogs are extremely vocal. 

Take for instance the dog that barks and whines for hours when it's left home. Is the dog being abused? Of course not. It just chooses to "Voice" it displeasure at being left behind rather than chewing up a pillow or table leg. 
Some dogs are stoic and never make a peep, others can be drama queens and will shriek at a quiet verbal no. Unless you have first hand experience with the dog in question, you really don't know whether the dog was being abused or your emotions were being manipulated.


----------



## Ljilly28

> And I honestly do not think it is fair to compare your dog's bidability and trainability to that of another dog's regardless of breed


I disagree. The whole overarching point of obedience trial competition is to compare the dog's bidability and trainability to the other competing against you- its suitability as a companion dog. Every time you step in an obedience ring, you end up comparing your dog to the other breeds and individuals.

I think it's cheating if a kid in my English class reads the cliff notes instead of the novel and I think it's cheating if someone uses an ecollar to teach the basics. I am aware that many other people feel differently on both subjects!

A basic title like a CD or CDX's inherent purpose is to demonstrate a dog's biddability as a breed or an individual. The reason a buyer might look for CD and CDX on the parents of a litter would be to see that the dogs are amenable to training. I don't think a dog should need electronic technology to achieve these titles. To me it is false advertising of the dog's biddability and/or the trainer's basic skill set to get its CD or CDX by shocking it. Using an ecollar to get a CD is a case of the ends justifying the means rather than showing hey- this is a lovely companion dog for a human.
.


----------



## tippykayak

Ljilly28 said:


> A basic title like a CD or CDX's inherent purpose is to demonstrate a dog's biddability as a breed or an individual. The reason a buyer might look for CD and CDX on the parents of a litter would be to see that the dogs are amenable to training. I don't think a dog should need electronic technology to achieve these titles. To me it is false advertising of the dog's biddability and/or the trainer's basic skill set to get its CD or CDX by shocking it. Using and ecollar to get a CD is a case of the ends justifying the means rather than showing hey- this is a lovely companion dog for a human.
> .


Well said! While I'm even less comfortable with the idea of e-collars than you are, I appreciate the distinction between using it to condition advanced work and using it as a hammer to force your dog to comply.


----------



## AmbikaGR

Ljilly28 said:


> I don't believe that any dog, regardless of breed, whether apple or pomegranate, who requires an ecollar to learn basic obedience should be competing. I realize others feel differently.





Ljilly28 said:


> I disagree. The whole overarching point of obedience trial competition is to compare the dog's bidability and trainability to the other competing against you- its suitability as a companion dog. Every time you step in an obedience ring, you end up comparing your dog to the other breeds and individuals.
> 
> I think it's cheating if a kid in my English class reads the cliff notes instead of the novel and I think it's cheating if someone uses an ecollar to teach the basics. I am aware that many other people feel differently on both subjects!
> 
> A basic title like a CD or CDX's inherent purpose is to demonstrate a dog's biddability as a breed or an individual. The reason a buyer might look for CD and CDX on the parents of a litter would be to see that the dogs are amenable to training. I don't think a dog should need electronic technology to achieve these titles. To me it is false advertising of the dog's biddability and/or the trainer's basic skill set to get its CD or CDX by shocking it. Using and ecollar to get a CD is a case of the ends justifying the means rather than showing hey- this is a lovely companion dog for a human.
> .


If you reread my entire post, nowhere in it will you read that I am condoning the use of an e-collar to attain any obedience title. 



Ljilly28 said:


> Despite the rules, pinch collars are fairly common to see at AKC shows, though not in the actual ring. You can even buy collars with fancy studs etc that hide the prongs on prong collars.


Well I do not know about shows in your area but I could count on one hand the number of times over the years I have seen someone at an AKC event using a prong collar. And just because "it is fairly common" does not make it okay. If an AKC rep or show committee person was to see it they would discipline the offender. 



Ljilly28 said:


> My dog scored a 198 in Open and I am not a very good trainer, so that leads me to believe that anyone who takes the time can train an open dog without an e collar.


My apples and pomaganate comment was in regard to this assumption that being you can train your Golden and score a 198 that anyone can do that with any dog if they were just to take the time. Honestly Jill, that is not the case and again I am not sayin or condoning the use of an e-collar would make it easier.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

I tell you one thing. My GSD is a freakin WUSS! He screams sometimes just having his (healthy, not infected, not sore) ears wiped clean, or having his nails trimmed (he holds still, he obeys, and I have never quicked him, but he just "bitches" during the process). I have no doubt he'd yelp and freak out if I put an e-collar on him, even on a low stimulation. I don't think I ever would. 

On the other hand (and again, I would not do it! And have not done it!) I am almost 100% certain that I could shock any of my three Goldens with the highest setting, and they'd barely react. Certainly they wouldn't vocalize. I've seen Goldens with broken legs and fatal traffic injuries and bee stings and so forth that did not cry out at all. I'm not sure I've ever heard any Golden yelp in pain, now that I think about it. They just tend to not be vocal dogs. GSDs, on the other hand, are notorious "talkers" and have something to say about everything


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Another case in point- my Shepherd screamed like the wuss he is, as did my Whippet, when he got microchipped.

Every Golden I've ever chipped did not even flinch, it's like they didn't even know it was happening.


----------



## Ljilly28

AmbikaGR said:


> I Jill, I will try to "explain" what "could" be the case in this instance.
> 
> 
> Now for this particular incident. Some dog react differently to different levels of stimulus. Some of the biggest most "macho" type dogs I have seen scream when set to the lowest setting. Just because a dog vocalizes does not mean it was being abused, honestly it does not.
> .


Since the main thrust of the thread is about the use of ecollars either pro or con , and the main point of my post was how sad it made me to see a woman ream her dog in anger for a poor performance in the ring using an ecollar, it did seem you were defending her use of the ecollar when you addressed the particular incident specifically. I agree it's dumb to judge other people's dogs by mine- especially since my three are very different. I was trying to say that since I am a novice, I don't want to see people with decades of experience being harsh to their dogs and it should not be needed. One or two people memorably getting after their dogs with choke collars,pinch collars, ecollars, and prong collars is something my friends and I talk about after every single show and a big reason some of my CPDT pet dog trainer friends are scornful that I want to particpate in AKC events. I have not once been to an AKC event in which someone did not break the rule against severe corrections.


----------



## FlyingQuizini

While I get that all dogs have the ability to respond differently to *any* stimulus, who are WE to say, "Oh no... that dog screaming... it's not screaming out of extreme distress... he's just being dramatic."

One of legandary trainer Bob Bailey's BEST quotes, IMO, is "You don't know what the animal is thinking." He says it often in terms of encouraging trainers to observe the animal's behavior rather than getting all caught up in stuff we don't know - like what the animal is thinking/feeling, etc.

IMO, if an animal is having that kind of observable reaction, it's a significant event for that animal. Why do we want to do that to our companions?

I can't tell you how many times I've heard people complain that their animals didn't mess up during training or at a match b/c they missed the opportunity to "correct 'um good" for a mistake. It's just a totally different mindset that's very hard for me to wrap my head around. I train in different places and at matches, etc. to help my dog generalize and learn that doing what I want is beneficial and fun no matter where we are - NOT b/c I want him to fear screwing up in any location.


----------



## FlyingQuizini

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Another case in point- my Shepherd screamed like the wuss he is, as did my Whippet, when he got microchipped.
> 
> Every Golden I've ever chipped did not even flinch, it's like they didn't even know it was happening.


And at the opposite end of the spectrum... my Whippet didn't flinch at all for her chip and my Golden was such a wussy during puppy shots that we decided to wait until he was under for the neuter to chip him!

My Whippet is DEFINITELY more stoic than my Golden. When they both had tonsillitis, she was way chill and he was a big weenie boy.


----------



## FlyingQuizini

AmbikaGR said:


> My apples and pomaganate comment was in regard to this assumption that being you can train your Golden and score a 198 that anyone can do that with any dog if they were just to take the time. Honestly Jill, that is not the case and again I am not sayin or condoning the use of an e-collar would make it easier.


I put a CD on a flat, non-drivey Whippet with all scores above a 190 and as has as a 197.5. We showed a total of 9 times: 4 to earn the AKC CD, 3 bonus legs for fun and 3 times for an ASCA CD) Doing that does leave me feeling that attainig high scores IS do-able with most any dog (w/o harsh corrective training) if you're willing to take the time and train in the way that works best for the dog. She was my first dog, too, and I really got my training chops with her.

I think most people in obedience turn to corrective training when they don't think they're getting success fast enough. JMO.


----------



## AmbikaGR

FlyingQuizini said:


> I put a CD on a flat, non-drivey Whippet with all scores above a 190 and as has as a 197.5. We showed a total of 9 times: 4 to earn the AKC CD, 3 bonus legs for fun and 3 times for an ASCA CD) Doing that does leave me feeling that attainig high schores IS do-able with most any dog (w/o harsh corrective training) if you're willing to take the time and train in the way that works best for the dog. She was my first dog, too, and I really got my training chops with her.
> 
> I think most people in obedience turn to corrective training when they don't think they're getting success fast enough. JMO.


Okay so you feel that ANY dog is capable of attaining a score of 198 with ANY trainer as long as they are willing to take the time.

I say that it is not.

We will just agree to disagree.



AmbikaGR said:


> My apples and pomaganate comment was in regard to this assumption that being you can train your Golden and score a 198 that anyone can do that with any dog if they were just to take the time. Honestly Jill, that is not the case and again I am not sayin or condoning the use of an e-collar would make it easier.


And again no where in my post did I condone, support or even mention "harsh corrective training".


----------



## FlyingQuizini

AmbikaGR said:


> Okay so you feel that ANY dog is capable of attaining a score of 198 with ANY trainer as long as they are willing to take the time.
> 
> I say that it is not.
> 
> We will just agree to disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> And again no where in my post did I condone, support or even mention "harsh corrective training".


ANY dog and ANY handler? No. But I think more dog/handler teams are capable of solid performances in the absence of corrections than there are teams who choose to train that way.

You didn't condone harsh training, no -- and I didn't say you did. BUT, I do think it's difficult for us as a human to say WHY a dog vacalizes, etc. and you made the comment to that effect - that some dogs just vocalize, but it's no big deal.

We're not that dog. How do we know? That's all I'm saying. 

We make human assumptions as to what a dog is thinking/feeling all the time. It's normal. I do it too. BUT, when it comes to a strong noticable reaction on the part of the dog (and I'll consider loud vocalization to be a strong noticable reaction) I try to be careful about saying for certain what the dog is experiencing. I may think I know... but I really don't. And I think sometimes, with some people, saying that vocalization isn't from pain or whatever, is more about justifying the use of positive punishment on the animal.... b/c really, we don't KNOW what the animal is experiencing - we can only observe the behavior.


----------



## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

E Collars work because they hurt, bottom line. Perhaps if it was a matter of saving a dog's life (snakes etc.) but I can't imagine any other possible reason. Obedience, agility etc. scores...it is a game! I would not hurt my guy to improve scores. There are so many other ways! Casey may not be a "wuss", but I sure am!


----------



## capa

AquaClaraCanines said:


> ... I am almost 100% certain that I could shock any of my three Goldens with the highest setting, and they'd barely react. Certainly they wouldn't vocalize. I've seen Goldens with broken legs and fatal traffic injuries and bee stings and so forth that did not cry out at all. I'm not sure I've ever heard any Golden yelp in pain, now that I think about it.


I have never heard Axel cry in pain and he has had his share of injuries and accidents. He either has a very high pain resistance or does not know how to vocalize it.

I would like to ask for some advice. Here in Sao Paulo we live behind walls, same as our neighbors, and never had the chance to let Axel roam free outside. Even if we had the vocation and time to train that is pretty much out of the question here.

We are planning on taking him for a vacation to either southern Chile or northern America, where we want to give him the chance to run free for once in his life, but in order to do this we would need to train him not to run away. He has no experience on being out of the house without a leash and the advice we got is to train him with an e collar for this trip. Comments?

Please consider that we do not have the possibility to train him outdoors the way we would in the US or Europe. I have read all your posts but still are undecided given our special circumstances. Thanks.


----------



## Loisiana

Mighty Casey's Mom said:


> E Collars work because they hurt, bottom line.


Have you ever felt a collar set at the lowest setting? It really doesn't hurt. I think it surprises the dogs more than anything. Now can a collar hurt a dog? Absolutely. But it doesn't necessarily have to hurt to be used successfully. I personally don't use one for training skills for the ring, but that doesn't mean that some people don't successfully use one.

As for the discussion about training any dog to high levels without corrections...I think most dogs can be trained to utility without the use of harsh corrections. However, I do think that a lot of those dogs will need some kind of corrections to get there. Big difference between corrections and harsh corrections.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

I think it hurts. I must be a German Shepherd 

Capa, I am not the one to ask, as I haven't ever used this method. I think you will get some good answers, though!


----------



## Loisiana

capa said:


> He has no experience on being out of the house without a leash and the advice we got is to train him with an e collar for this trip. Comments?
> 
> Please consider that we do not have the possibility to train him outdoors the way we would in the US or Europe. I have read all your posts but still are undecided given our special circumstances. Thanks.


My initial reaction would be no. Certainly not starting out training already planning to use one. I did use an ecollar to reinforce a recall on my Lhasa Apso. But it was after a couple of years of unsuccessful training with other methods. This was a dog that would come racing in at full speed when he wanted, but if he didn't feel like it he would look at me and then turn around and walk off (very different from the typical Golden just having too much fun to come back, this was a dog that knew what I wanted, had nothing better to do, had been trained that coming back was always a great thing, yet had no problem blowing me off). A recall isn't optional in my world and I had to find something to fix it.

My point is that while I wouldn't say that I never recommend using an ecollar for training a recall since I had to use one with my own dog, most dogs don't need one if the time is put into the training properly. So even if it turned out that you do have one of those dogs that needed an ecollar to get a reliable recall, I don't think that should go into effect until extensive training without it has been done.


----------



## tippykayak

As far as vocalization, I think LJilly's probably experienced enough with dogs to tell the difference between a chatty, expressive whine and a scream of pain. My dogs "talk" all the time. The difference between backtalk and a pain vocalization is usually pretty clear.


----------



## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

Loisiana said:


> Have you ever felt a collar set at the lowest setting? It really doesn't hurt.
> 
> Yes, I have and it is NOT pleasant. Surprise, to say the least. I have felt it once and would not volunteer for a second try.


----------



## AmbikaGR

capa said:


> He has no experience on being out of the house without a leash and the advice we got is to train him with an e collar for this trip. Comments?
> 
> Please consider that we do not have the possibility to train him outdoors the way we would in the US or Europe. I have read all your posts but still are undecided given our special circumstances. Thanks.


 
Well in my opinion the advice you got was very bad and I would not recommend training any dog with an e-collar. The purpose of an e-collar is to reinforce an already learned command/behavior and not to teach it. 

My opinion would be to not allow Axel off leash while on vacation. It could be dangerous for him and if he is not completely reliable on the recall he could cause an injury to someone, especially if they are not a dog lover and they become scared. Get yourself a real long leash (20-30 ft.) and use that for when you are in an open area and you wish to give him some freedom. Otherwise keep him on a leash as you normally would at home.


----------



## kvar

I purchased an e-collar for our golden Layla. My wife was COMPLETELY against it. I made sure that I tried it on myself before hand in front of my wife so she knew that it was not so bad. I was even able to talk my wife in to trying it on her leg, and she is very sensitive to pain. My wife is now just as big of an endorser of the collar as I am. We used the collar to train our dog our yard boundary and she is great with it. It only took her a couple of times to realize that if her collar beeps she needs to back off. Now all we have to do is use the beep function of the collar and our dog stops doing whatever bad thing she was doing. Coupling this with giving her a treat when she performs the correct action and her bad habits have diminished greatly. Our collar has 8 levels of correction and we never go above level 3. I went up to level 5 on myself and even that was not terrible. 

Now I am sure that there are people out there that abuse using this, but used responsibly it can be a great asset.


----------



## capa

AmbikaGR said:


> The purpose of an e-collar is to reinforce an already learned command/behavior and not to teach it.
> My opinion would be to not allow Axel off leash while on vacation. It could be dangerous for him and if he is not completely reliable on the recall he could cause an injury to someone, especially if they are not a dog lover and they become scared.


Thanks for the advice. We had only considered Axel not getting lost or hurt, but not the possibility of him injuring someone or having a bad encounter due to his inexperience being off the leash. What you say makes a lot of sense, regardless of e-collars. He is a big dog, weighs 43 kilos (90 pounds ??) and he is not neutered (which makes him very territorial).


----------



## tippykayak

kvar said:


> I purchased an e-collar for our golden Layla. My wife was COMPLETELY against it. I made sure that I tried it on myself before hand in front of my wife so she knew that it was not so bad. I was even able to talk my wife in to trying it on her leg, and she is very sensitive to pain. My wife is now just as big of an endorser of the collar as I am. We used the collar to train our dog our yard boundary and she is great with it. It only took her a couple of times to realize that if her collar beeps she needs to back off. Now all we have to do is use the beep function of the collar and our dog stops doing whatever bad thing she was doing. Coupling this with giving her a treat when she performs the correct action and her bad habits have diminished greatly. Our collar has 8 levels of correction and we never go above level 3. I went up to level 5 on myself and even that was not terrible.
> 
> Now I am sure that there are people out there that abuse using this, but used responsibly it can be a great asset.


As a contrasting story, my guys observe yard boundaries and have never been shocked. You can teach boundary behavior and recall with pure positives, and it works beautifully.

Also, if you want to try it on yourself, you should probably wrap it around your own neck, put it on whatever setting you're going to use on the dog, and have a friend randomly shock you as you try to go about your business. That's more like what your dog will experience than a single shock on the leg, particularly one you're prepared for.


----------



## capa

Loisiana said:


> My initial reaction would be no. Certainly not starting out training already planning to use one.
> My point is that while I wouldn't say that I never recommend using an ecollar for training a recall since I had to use one with my own dog, most dogs don't need one if the time is put into the training properly.


Well, Axel is not al old dog and I guess we can wait until we go back home to Germany eventually to take the time and properly train him for the outdoors. Thanks for the input.


----------

