# RANT - Kicked out of a restaurant because of my service animal



## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

I would call your local newspaper about this. My guess is they would be very interested


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

You have every right to be angry. No documentation is necessary. I would suggest you put your complaint to corporate in writing. My other suggestion would be to obtain a "tag" that you can carry with you that identifies your dog as a "service dog". The tags are available at several sites on the internet for a nominal charge. While you are correct on the law, having a tag or license will make your life easier.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

You are probably aware of the places you can get a tag, but here is a link, anyway.
Service Dog ID Tags - Custom Service Dog Badges

I am so sorry you had this problem. Our son had a disability issue several years ago and had a temporary handicapped parking tag, and one time someone said something to him that he should not park in the handicapped space. Totally inappropriate. These kind of issues have been a sore spot with me ever since. It is hard enough to deal with a disability, put people should never make anyone's condition worse or make them feel bad about it.

You may have a cause of action also. You could consider consulting an attorney who specializes in disability litigation. I hope you get some satisfaction for this.


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

Thank you, Max's dad. I have a little card for Remy but I haven't gotten one for Caira. I guess I'll have to go ahead and get a tag for her. I found an online wallet printable of all of the ADA laws that I will fold up and keep with me from now on. Like I said.. it was just humiliating. The guy was obviously ignorant.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

ADA law fold-up is a great idea.


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## JLC44 (Jun 18, 2013)

Rant away. Camaro is our son's Autism service dog, so again an "invisible" disability. I have the Dept. of Justice ADA hotline programmed into my phone (800) 514-0301 and also have a link bookmarked on my phone it is from the Michigan State Law College website that has a table of all state's laws regarding service dogs. Table of State Assistance Animal Laws

Now for Texas the definition of service dog hurts you because it does not recognize owner trained dogs. 
(1) "Assistance animal" means an animal that is specially trained or equipped to help a person with a disability and that:
(A) is used by a person with a disability who has satisfactorily completed a specific course of training in the use of the animal; and
(B) has been trained by an organization generally recognized by agencies involved in the rehabilitation of persons with disabilities as reputable and competent to provide animals with training of this type.

What that means is that it is not a misdemeanor in Texas to deny access to an owner trained dog, but it is of course still against Federal civil law. You have no coverage under state law because it is an owner trained dog but ADA does still apply. 

I would be furious, it is disgraceful that this still happens. The law is almost 25 years old for crying out loud.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

In Ashleylp's situation, the Texas law may apply, because, I believe, she is a dog trainer by profession. A strong argument could be made that she trained her dog and gave herself the requisite training class.


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

I am a dog trainer! I do have a registered LLC dog training company. I am thinking about submitting the story to the news. Do you think I should simply call corporate or get the media involved? I hate to be the center of attention so I am hesitant to get the media involved, but I definitely think that this is WRONG and that that individual needs an eye-opener.


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## JLC44 (Jun 18, 2013)

My apologies Ashley I was not aware of that. Although splitting legal hairs if your company does not train service dogs you still might not be covered by the state laws, which I think is an incredibly stupid law. Further compounded by this section I just found 
(a) A person who uses an assistance animal with a harness or leash of the type commonly used by persons with disabilities who use trained animals, in order to represent that his or her animal is a specially trained assistance animal when training of the type described in Section 121.002(1)(B) of this chapter has not in fact been provided, is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction shall be punished by a fine of not more than $200.

So according to the ADA owner trained dogs are allowed but it is a misdemeanor in Texas!!! You would think they would have looked at this when they passed the new law regarding PTSD dogs.

Sorry did not mean to change direction of thread into Texas laws I just didn't realize how poor they were. If you don't like being center of attention I would contact corporate first and then if not satisfied and you feel it is worth dealing with the attention contact the media.

Just in case it is not clear I am 100% on your side. You should not have had to deal with this, and the area manager definitely needs an eye opener.


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

But doesn't federal law trump state law? That is bullcrap about owner trained dogs being a misdemeanor. Wow. Now I'm anxious to take my dogs with me... I was so embarrassed today, I'd hate to think I wasn't legally in the right.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

I think that the next step is up-to-you. I would "sleep on it" and decide what to do tomorrow. Perhaps contact corporate initially and see how open they are to some re-education. If you do not want to be in the public eye, perhaps a letter, email and/or phone call might be a good way to start. 

Having the documentation with you that some may want, even though it is not required, should make life easier. 

On the other hand, I seem to recall a TV video with you doing dog training--maybe you could contact a person directly who is in the media. See what they think. Disability issues are political in nature, and I do not know what reception these kind of issues will have in your area.


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

Max's Dad you have an incredible memory... I did work with the media! I however don't have any close contacts. I am going to start with sleeping on it, will definitely contact the company and see how receptive they are, and go from there.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

JLC44 makes some excellent points. Conflicts between federal and state laws gets very complicated. There have been many Supreme Court rulings on the subject. I suspect that the culture concerning disability issues is much different in Texas than here in California.


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## JLC44 (Jun 18, 2013)

ashleylp said:


> But doesn't federal law trump state law? That is bullcrap about owner trained dogs being a misdemeanor. Wow. Now I'm anxious to take my dogs with me... I was so embarrassed today, I'd hate to think I wasn't legally in the right.



Ashley you were absolutely legally right, federal does trump state law when in conflict. The law is illegal as it contradicts federal law. It would be like Texas having a law that it is a misdemeanor for women to vote. 

If I were in your place (not concerned about being in center of attention) I would contact media to bring attention to the illegal law almost more than the restaurant. You must do what you are comfortable with, if corporate satisfies you than leave it at that. Again very sorry you had to go through this.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

ashleylp said:


> Max's Dad you have an incredible memory... I did work with the media! I however don't have any close contacts. I am going to start with sleeping on it, will definitely contact the company and see how receptive they are, and go from there.


Sounds like a good idea.


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## JLC44 (Jun 18, 2013)

OK after a lot of searching I finally found the text of the new law that was just passed in June. The media only focused on the inclusion of PTSD and Psychiatric Service Dogs however it also redefines service dog removing the requirement of service dogs having to be trained by a reputable organization. According to the media reports it will become law Sept 1 but the Texas legislature page says effective Jan 1, 2014 so I don't know when it will be applied.

So when you contact corporate office I would point out that the manager's actions were a misdemeanor to some service dog teams under the current law and to all service dog teams when the new law takes effect.

83(R) HB 489 - Enrolled version - Bill Text

The penalties have also been changed from $300-$1000 to less than $300 and 30 hrs community service for denying access and is now the penalty for falsely claiming a service dog (with the new definition of service dog). It also raises the damages due to a person denied their civil liberties from at least $100 to at least $300. It is important to note that denying access includes asking more than the 2 ADA allowed questions, so his asking for paperwork is a misdemeanor.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Ashley, are you familiar with Susannah Charleson? She is a Dallas area author whose new book is about service dogs for non visible disabilites. Her Jake is her service dog and her new book is about his story and about her charity, "Possibility Dogs" whose mission is to not only find rescue dogs suitable for training as service dogs but also support for those training their own. She also acts as a voice for what is needed for being out in public, in the airports/planes etc and for educating people such as the ones you encountered. She has a "big stick" and is a very visible voice. You may want to contact her.... she is on FB as is Possibility Dogs. Right now she in on a book tour, but she may be able to be a good, knowledgeable sounding board.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I"m sorry you had to deal with this. It's why I so rarely take Tito, harness and all, out with me. I'm so afraid of stuff like this happening.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

A letter to the editor of your local paper is in order, so is a very detailed one to the governing agency to send the laws to these idiots. So sorry that this happened. 


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## GoldenMum (Mar 15, 2010)

I am so sorry this happened. Ashley, It is disgraceful when an obviously well trained dog in a service vest is asked to leave like that. I would definitely contact corporate, an the author.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Ashley this is just horrible. As I have RA also, I know the frustration that comes with a debilitating yet invisible disease. As if having it isn't bad enough. I hope you have good treatment!

I would start w corporate. I bet they are going to be appalled. And be prepared next time to turn on the microphone recorder on you smartphone, for evidence either with a given company or court.

Stick with it, a huge invisible population is behind you and you will do many a great service.

Easy movement and painfree energy sent your way....


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Some states do not recognize SDIT (Service Dogs in Training) and if your dog is visibly a still a puppy then they dotn have to allow your dog....you may have a very difficult time in court.

Have you had your dogs pass through an ADI public access test? Not that it required, but it can save you a lot of grief in court....where you may very well have to prove your dogs ability to perform three physical tasks.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Ashley--very sorry this happened to you.

I hope you can get past your feelings of humiliation and convert them into anger. You should be mad, and perhaps you could effect some change on behalf of those with "not visible" disabilities. 

Personally I suspect that what was done to you is a result of two things: the increase in "fake" service dogs, and the confusion between different sets of laws. In any case the manager handled it poorly and if he _was_ following company policy, someone needs to rewrite it!

(and the people with fake service dogs should be very ashamed!)


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

I have "in training" service puppies. In Ontario, the law does not differentiate between training dogs and working service dogs. I had a similar incident in Toronto last summer. The management at the restaurant did not seem to concerned, and could not seem to "find" their head office number. So, I posted on their facebook page about the incident. It took head office about 10 min to reply to the post, with a request to contact them.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

The problem is all the people out there with fake service dogs. I am on a cruise forum, and it has become a big issue in the cruise industry, people bringing their pocket book dogs as service dogs so they don't need to board them. They are ruining things for everybody else.

I was on a plane a few years ago, and a elderly man had his great dane with him saying it was a eye seeing service dog. It was obvious that this dog was not well trained, had hip problems, had no vest and probably a handmade harness. He was in the stewardess' way because he had to sit in the aisle. I heard the stewardesses talking that they knew who was a fake but could not do anything about it.


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## goldentemperment (May 16, 2012)

Sorry to hear about that.

Corporations really start to squeal when they get bad media coverage. That's always a lever you can pull if you're not feeling like they're making it right.


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## goldentemperment (May 16, 2012)

cubbysan said:


> The problem is all the people out there with fake service dogs. I am on a cruise forum, and it has become a big issue in the cruise industry, people bringing their pocket book dogs as service dogs so they don't need to board them. They are ruining things for everybody else.
> 
> I was on a plane a few years ago, and a elderly man had his great dane with him saying it was a eye seeing service dog. It was obvious that this dog was not well trained, had hip problems, had no vest and probably a handmade harness. He was in the stewardess' way because he had to sit in the aisle. I heard the stewardesses talking that they knew who was a fake but could not do anything about it.


I thought a person can get into a lot of trouble if they try to fake that...


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Companies don't like bad publicity, so consider using social media to your advantage. One other avenue of complaint is to visit the restaurant's facebook page and post how disappointed you are that this company does not comply with federal ADA laws and that you were denied service. While not disability law related, I posted on the ATT facebook page about some bad customer service on an issue and got a response in 10 minutes, an escalation and a resolution within 24 hours, after waiting almost a week with excuse after excuse.


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## Kylie (Feb 16, 2013)

goldentemperment said:


> I thought a person can get into a lot of trouble if they try to fake that...


They can. The problem is no one knows how what to about it so they get away with it  Or people take it out on people like Ashley who have real service dogs


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Kylie said:


> They can. The problem is no one knows how what to about it so they get away with it  Or people take it out on people like Ashley who have real service dogs


That's why I said that about different sets of laws. The businesses are in tight place because of the confusion. It would be good if it were clear for everyone--that would eliminate the fakers.

When you have a disability parking placard, you are required to keep the paperwork handy. If a police officer asks to see it, the ID and paperwork need to be produced. I've never seen this done, but I keep my paperwork handy! Something similar needs to be set up for service animals so people don't get booted from restaurants and the like. I saw a wonderful story the other day about a Boston organization that trains Capuchin monkeys as service animals for paraplegics. What a great idea--but I wonder if the owner can go into the grocery store woth their helper"?


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## JLC44 (Jun 18, 2013)

OutWest said:


> That's why I said that about different sets of laws. The businesses are in tight place because of the confusion. It would be good if it were clear for everyone--that would eliminate the fakers.
> 
> When you have a disability parking placard, you are required to keep the paperwork handy. If a police officer asks to see it, the ID and paperwork need to be produced. I've never seen this done, but I keep my paperwork handy! Something similar needs to be set up for service animals so people don't get booted from restaurants and the like. I saw a wonderful story the other day about a Boston organization that trains Capuchin monkeys as service animals for paraplegics. What a great idea--but I wonder if the owner can go into the grocery store woth their helper"?


There are many conflicts and confusing laws business owners have to deal with aside from this one. That does not excuse them from following them. 

ADA is the federal law and it is an inclusive law, if you violate it as this business did then you are wrong, state laws can only add protection to the disabled not remove it.

I don't want to hijack this thread into a certification (paperwork) discussion so I will just say that there are many issues with that. The DoJ addressed this with the 2010 ADA revisions and stated why it is not feasible or desirable. There was just a thread on this recently.
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...dog-registration-valid-scamming-public-4.html


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

LibertyME said:


> Have you had your dogs pass through an ADI public access test? Not that it required, but it can save you a lot of grief in court....where you may very well have to prove your dogs ability to perform three physical tasks.


One question I have... and this is simply based on what I perceive as far as people purchasing puppies to train as their kid's therapy dog or whatnot.... 

For the sake of the cause - meaning that we want to protect the ability of disabled people to bring dogs into public places or otherwise restricted areas with them.... shouldn't there be some kind of test ANYWAY to ensure that a dog is not aggressive, serves a specific purpose and there is a diagnosed need, and has ideal manners in busy places? 

Our dogs are not trained as seizure alert dogs... but some of the behaviors are natural, imprinted by the older dogs on the younger dogs, or encouraged. I have three sibs who grew up with epilepsy... and one of them still has seizures on a weekly basis (or so). Generally if someone is going to have a seizure, the dogs won't leave them alone. Primarily, they get super huggy-licky-sniffy. There are also other behaviors that we actually did train with each dog. When people are coming out of seizures, they can be "out of it" for a while and grab and pull and pinch at dogs and need help getting up. The dogs are trained to be very gentle and calm in those situations. 

I can't say it's ever occurred to me to use the dogs as service dogs for my brothers and sister, but even so... I would be very uncomfortable about taking them out into restaurants or other no-dog places on the chance that they would not behave appropriately. 

I have friends who raised and trained dogs for PAWS and these dogs were not allowed to ever be "just dogs" in public like mine have. 

That is a personal reason and I think a valid one for not using my guys as service dogs - even if it would be comforting for my sister who has "once in a blue moon" seizures. I think you just don't want to give state or federal lawmakers any reason to crack down on where service dogs are allowed. 

I'm just curious if there is any way to ensure that you don't have "service dogs" pooping in grocery stores or growling at other people.... or exhibiting other untrained behaviors?


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

goldentemperment said:


> I thought a person can get into a lot of trouble if they try to fake that...


But if you can't ask for documentation, they can't prove it. I think on the cruise lines they can ask for documentation.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Megora said:


> One question I have... and this is simply based on what I perceive as far as people purchasing puppies to train as their kid's therapy dog or whatnot....
> 
> For the sake of the cause - meaning that we want to protect the ability of disabled people to bring dogs into public places or otherwise restricted areas with them.... shouldn't there be some kind of test ANYWAY to ensure that a dog is not aggressive, serves a specific purpose and there is a diagnosed need, and has ideal manners in busy places?
> 
> ...


There actually was such a case in CT or MA where a grocery store did ban a particular seeing eye dog from their store. The woman would come in with her and the dog had chronic digestion issues and would have diarrhea in the aisles of the store, and the owner would not clean it up. She said the ADA was on her side, but the board of health actually overruled her with that particular dog.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

They can, BUT it means going to court.
Most small businesses cant afford the hassle.

We had a local drug store (part of a national chain) take a woman to court and win...she and her dogs are banned from their stores all across the country.
The store documented every time her dogs (yes she brought multiple dogs with her) damaged property and harassed customers...it took the YEARS and many trips to court to ban her.






goldentemperment said:


> I thought a person can get into a lot of trouble if they try to fake that...


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Our local Walmart gets hit by fakes all the time....they have been clamping down and have been successful at prosecuting.

I was at a different chain store this weekend and there was a man with TWO goldens off leash.
Yes he was bragging to anyone within earshot that they were his SD...all the while they were sniffing my feet a good 20 feet away from him.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

LibertyME said:


> Our local Walmart gets hit by fakes all the time....they have been clamping down and have been successful at prosecuting.
> 
> I was at a different chain store this weekend and there was a man with TWO goldens off leash.
> Yes he was bragging to anyone within earshot that they were his SD...all the while they were sniffing my feet a good 20 feet away from him.


I think that is when you know they are fake, when the owners start bragging and announcing the service dogs ( and being untrained ). The real service dogs and their owners are very discreet.


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## Lennap (Jul 9, 2010)

I had a very similar thing happen to me in Texas, back when I was traveling every week for business. Needless to say Remy went on each and every trip with me.

One morning I was stepping into the breakfast buffet to grab coffee. As usual I waited until others had cleared the room, just in case anyone was afraid of dogs, and as I stepped in - the woman working the front desk yelled at me from across the lobby that I could not go in there with that dog. I was mortified.

But I stood my ground, told her that Remy was my service dog, and it was ok. To which she screamed, "But you are not blind!" I thanked her for letting me know that and agreed with her - but told her nevertheless he was allowed in - according to the ADA. She gave me the same line that she didn't care it was against the health department rules. 

I told her she had broken several laws - and that I would be very please if she would kindly call the police I she felt so inclined. I then called the Marriott Corporation to advise them what was going on. Given that at the time Remy and I were spending 5 out of days every week at a Marriott, they were not pleased.

She stood her ground and never even apologized. I checked out that day.

The funny thing is that when I checked in, the guy working the desk actually took a Xerox copy of his NYC Service Dog tag - to have proof in the record that he was legitimate

Bottom line is you just can't fix stupid.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I have an ID card for Flip with the law on the back. It isn't necessary, and some people are against anyone using IDs because then it makes it harder for the next team that comes through that _doesnt_ have an ID. But I'm more comfortable having it to fall back on.

I've been on vacation this past week and Flip made a total of four different plane rides. I hear about people sticking a vest on an untrained pet so they can bring their dog on board. I cannot imagine even trying to do that. Asking a dog to walk down a narrow little aisle, then curl up under a seat and stay there for hours, despite changes in pressure, turbulence, kid in seat in front dropping cookies, people accidentally kicking when they pass, it's incredibly stressful. On the first ride the lady in the seat next to me was wearing sandals and her feet were resting inches from Flip's face. I was terrified the entire time that he was going to lick her toes! I did not take my eyes off him. But he was a good boy, no toe licking. He did get nervous on the take off and landing, but for the rest of the trip he stayed curled up with his head resting on the floor. The two biggest compliments were when the stewardess said she forgot he was down there, and when we got off everyone said "I didn't know there was a dog on board!"

A funny story, on one of our legs, I was waiting to board, and an employee saw me standing with my golden retriever service dog, so he held my arm and started walking me towards the plane. It was about halfway there, when he kept describing every time we got to a step, that I realized he thought I was blind! (Flip is trained to alert to drops in blood sugar) I couldn't figure out a way for "I'm not blind!" to not come out rude, so I just let him finish guiding me by the arm. When we got to my seat he patted it to make sure I could hear where it was. :uhoh:


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## JLC44 (Jun 18, 2013)

We noticed something over our 4th vacation (13 hour drive each way). When I took Camaro in someplace no one said anything. When she took him into store while I was filling up car she got yelled at from across the store "if that's not seeing eye dog it can't be in here" and when she took him into rest area a trucker told her "dogs aren't allowed in here"

I don't know if it is coincidence that she gets challenged and I don't, or if there is a reason behind it, but I found it interesting. She was less than amused.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

I think the rules for service dogs are ambivalent. I would like clearly stated, objective training for any service animal. Seeing-eye dogs are raised until they are one year old making sure that they are exposed to many situations. Then their training starts. They have to pass stringent tests before they are given to a person in need. Both the dog and the person have to train together. And, while this is some different then needing to pick things up, this intense training has value.

A dog that passes a CGC or a simple therapy dog test is not my idea of what a good service dog needs to be. Those tests check a limited set of situations and behaviors. 

*I do want people to be able to have dogs when they need them*, I think it is a wonderful gift for many people but I want the animal well-trained and safe in the public arena also.

A friend of mine is legally blind, and I have seen how hard it can be with a seeing-eye dog. I've seen people let their dogs approach and attack the see-eye dog while the dog was working. I've seen difficulty getting into a restaurant. So I do understand as least some of the potential problems. 

But I would like to see some across-the-board training certification that indicates that the dog/parrot/horse/monkey will behave under most circumstances while in public.


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

Hey guys, sorry that I have been awol for most of today.. we were out all day long and working. I had decided to call the company this morning and give a formal complaint, and if they stood their ground I was going to go to the media. Before I could even call, however, I got a message from a friend on facebook. She had seen my post and being such a caring individual, she had immediately emailed the company and gave them a piece of her mind.

This was the company's response to her email:

Heather,
My name is Paul Shaner and I am the Director of Operations for all of the Bill Miller BBQ stores here in the Austin area. First of all, let me first apologize for what happened last night with your friend & her dog at our Slaughter Lane store. I want to let you know that because of what happened last night, I contacted our Quality Assurance Director first thing this morning (she is a former Health Inspector) & asked her if the situation was handled correctly or not under current health codes. She informed me that the A.D.A. had been updated in the last couple of years to clarify the treatment of service animals in food service establishments and she set me straight on what the current law is concerning this. Your friend was absolutely right about every point that she made when speaking with us last night, only we were operating under outdated guidelines about what to do on our side of the equation. On the one hand I feel horrible that we asked your friend to take her dog outside when that clearly was the wrong thing to do. On the other hand, I am glad that it has resulted in us learning the proper way to handle these situations in the future so that we are not upsetting any more customers that come into our stores with service animals. I have since contacted all of the stores here and spoken with all of the managers so that everyone is aware of the new laws & the proper way to handle these situations in the future.
I do have one favor to ask of you, if it is not too much trouble. I would really appreciate it if you could contact your friend and ask her to get in touch with me so that I can apologize to her personally. Like I said before, I feel horrible that we did not handle this the right way & I know how upset I would be if I was in her shoes, so I really would like to tell her myself how sorry I am about what happened. I move around a lot between stores, so if you could ask her to call our Main Office at 1-800-339-3111 and ask for me, Paul Shaner, they will page me & I can call her right back.
I appreciate you doing business with us in the past and I hope that you will give us another chance to make it right!
Sincerely,
Paul Shaner
Director of Operations
Austin

I did end up calling him and speaking with him and he was extremely polite and very apologetic. He said that he was so wrong and so embarrassed, and that the incident tore at him all night after he had spoken to the quality control individual and he had wished that he had a way to apologize to me. He also took my address and said that my family and I, including my beautiful dog, would be enjoying many meals on them. I told him that that was not my point, but that I simply wanted everyone to be educated because it was a very embarrassing situation for me and I never wanted any other individual with a disability to encounter the same issue, and he said he understood but to please let him send the gift cards. I accepted.

He did tell me that they have a big corporate meeting every month and regional meetings, and that the ADA laws are now on the agenda for both meetings. He appreciated that I was so understanding and respectful even though he was clearly in the wrong.

I am of course not saying that his actions were at all justified, but I will forgive... but not forget. This has lit a fire under me to assist in educating others about service dogs. In fact, it has encouraged me to take my dog with me MORE places so that I may continue to educate.

I appreciated the company's apology and I did sense that the man was heartfelt and was honestly embarrassed at his actions. He did not push blame on anyone but himself, which was nice. I think we have both been humbled by this situation.


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## JLC44 (Jun 18, 2013)

I am glad you got a response that you are happy with, and can put this behind you, and well done to your friend. No it shouldn't have happened but it did so now it is about how they handle it and it sounds like they are taking strides to prevent it from happening again and to make it up to you.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Good to hear that you have gotten some satisfaction. Also good that the company is going to get their policies with regard to service dogs current with the current ADA regulations.


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## Pixie (Jun 13, 2012)

I am happy with this out come 

It is true that they should be updated with this rules, but since most of their clients do not have service dogs might be easy to let that slip through. You should be proud to have been such a good embassador, not on the easiest way, but now hold your head high and be proud of the positive change you made  I am pretty sure Caira and Remy are proud of you and so are we


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## JLC44 (Jun 18, 2013)

Gwen_Dandridge said:


> But I would like to see some across-the-board training certification that indicates that the dog/parrot/horse/monkey will behave under most circumstances while in public.


Gwen, here is one problem you may not have thought of. A person goes into a store with a German Shepard Service Dog. The store owner does not like German Shepards because he was attacked by one as a child. So he checks the certification and says it looks fake so he is allowed to deny access. 

If there is certification to prevent fakes then businesses have to be allowed to deny access to fakes. It becomes a restrictive law instead of an inclusive law. Businesses have the right to deny instead of disabled having the right to access. The example could be changed to fit any person's service dog. There is too much leeway for abuse by businesses if that happens.


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## BajaOklahoma (Sep 27, 2009)

JLC44 said:


> Gwen, here is one problem you may not have thought of. A person goes into a store with a German Shepard Service Dog. The store owner does not like German Shepards because he was attacked by one as a child. So he checks the certification and says it looks fake so he is allowed to deny access.
> 
> If there is certification to prevent fakes then businesses have to be allowed to deny access to fakes. It becomes a restrictive law instead of an inclusive law. Businesses have the right to deny instead of disabled having the right to access. The example could be changed to fit any person's service dog. There is too much leeway for abuse by businesses if that happens.


I think the certification would decrease these type of episodes. Not totally eliminate them, but it would give more respect for the training the dog has received.
More than once I have the comment "Well, I'm going to order a service dog vest so my dog can go everywhere with me." That's the attitude and lack of education that you are fighting.

I consider myself fairly intelligent, but I have a huge lack of knowledge of the ADA laws. We are possibly getting a student with a service dog this year - the first for our school district. I want everything to go as smoothly as possible, so I am trying to educate myself, figure out potential problems and have a plan in place to deal with it. 

Carrying a copy of the ADA laws is a great idea. Most restaurants are very familiar with the local and state Health Dept laws because they have to deal with them daily. How often do they deal with ADA laws? Not often enough to be familiar with them. We do tend to forget the stuff we don't use often.
I knew the dogs are allowed everywhere, but I didn't know what I was and wasn't allowed to ask. I had assumed that there was some sort of certification process. Consider me the general public as far as what most people know.

Ashley, I'm not sure how I would have handled it. I'm sorry it happened.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Ashley, I'm so glad you got some satisfaction from the manager of the BBQ place. I would definitely try them out again in a week or so and see if things are different, and if not, follow up again with this gentleman.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I have worked in the restaurant business, in retail and in corporate. In the restaurant business there is so much training about all the board of health rules and laws, in corporate we go through tons of Federally mandated diversity training, and I am sure in retail the diversity training is big now too. All of this is to avoid lawsuits, fines or license suspensions, but none of these companies have told us what we were supposed to do or not do with service animals. I think the ADA has failed here in getting the word and the training out. If they are part of the Federal Law, then they should be working with them, not separately making laws that conflict or confuse the people that are supposed to be following them.

I remember when I was a server at a pub, my manager/owner of the pub refused to serve a woman who came in stumbling because she appeared to be drunk, the woman stated she had a disability, but what was my boss supposed to do. The ABC tells her she can't server anybody that is drunk, but she probably broke ADA laws, but the ABC says she can deny serving anybody for any reason. The fines from the ABC would have been a personal fine to her, a fine for her business plus a shutdown of the establishment for up to 90 days. I know serving alcohol is different from letting service dogs in, and this happened almost 30 years ago, but as an 19 year old watching this happen, I always wondered if she did or didn't do the right thing.


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

ashleylp said:


> Hey guys, sorry that I have been awol for most of today.. we were out all day long and working. I had decided to call the company this morning and give a formal complaint, and if they stood their ground I was going to go to the media. Before I could even call, however, I got a message from a friend on facebook. She had seen my post and being such a caring individual, she had immediately emailed the company and gave them a piece of her mind.
> 
> This was the company's response to her email:
> 
> ...


I, for one, am encouraged by his response, and I'm glad that you were open to his apology.

When we are wrong, all we can do is apologize and ask for a chance to do better the next time. It sounds like this guy "gets it".

As I get older (and hopefully a tad wiser) I'm beginning to understand that I don't have a clue about the ins and outs of what other people deal with in just living their daily lives.

For example, when somebody receives a heart transplant, most of the general public is excited for them, and may even think the recipient has been given the gift of healthy, carefree life. Even when they "understand" that the recipient has a lifetime of doctors visits, lab tests, and medications, they truly don't get how much hard, thankless, painful, boring, scary work that really involves. A heart transplant recipient deals with their basic "keep myself alive" health _every single day, _and a mistake can cost them their life.

My guess is the original offender has no idea what it's like to live with a disability or what it means to rely on a service animal. Was he wrong? Absolutely. Was he being vindictive and hateful? I don't know because I wasn't there--but I've learned that _most_ people are just ignorant, not hateful.

I myself am fortunate in that I don't deal with a disability, so maybe my thoughts are completely off base. I just think when we don't give people the _chance_ to learn about us and what we struggle with, we're being just as wrong in expecting them to completely respect and understand our difficulties.

I just believe that we're imperfect people living in an imperfect--often downright unfair--world and the only hope we have of surviving is learning about each other and trying to understand each other.


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## JLC44 (Jun 18, 2013)

cubbysan said:


> I think the ADA has failed here in getting the word and the training out. If they are part of the Federal Law, then they should be working with them, not separately making laws that conflict or confuse the people that are supposed to be following them.


The ADA, is the American's with Disability Act, so I don't understand what they you are talking about. It is Federal Law providing the minimum protection to people with disabilities, states can add protection but not remove it. 

The law is not confusing and there is no failure to get the word out, the law is almost 25 years old. A quick search for "ADA business service dog" will give you the Department of Justice ADA Business Brief which gives guidelines and the DoJ phone number for additional questions. ADA Business Brief: Service Animals 

The business brief would have fixed this particular issue for Ashley as it specifically addresses the manager's 2 issues.

"Businesses may ask if an animal is a service animal or ask what tasks the animal has been trained to perform, but *cannot require special ID cards* for the animal or ask about the person's disability.

*Businesses that sell or prepare food must allow service animals in public areas even if state or local health codes prohibit animals on the premises."
*
I fail to see the conflict or confusion.*
*


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

JLC44 said:


> The ADA, is the American's with Disability Act, so I don't understand what they you are talking about. It is Federal Law providing the minimum protection to people with disabilities, states can add protection but not remove it.
> 
> The law is not confusing and there is no failure to get the word out, the law is almost 25 years old. A quick search for "ADA business service dog" will give you the Department of Justice ADA Business Brief which gives guidelines and the DoJ phone number for additional questions. ADA Business Brief: Service Animals
> 
> ...


But the ADA has failed to educate the public. I know the laws because of these forums, but if my 16 year old daughter had a summer job, she would be Federally mandated to be trained on diversity, she would be trained on ABC laws and board of health laws, but I doubt she would be trained on ADA laws. I never have been. She could be breaking the law and never know it, just thinking she was being a good employee.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I agree with cubbysan.
It's been a few years since I worked with the public but I have had jobs in retail as well as in the restaurant/bar industry. I don't ever remember getting any training on service dogs.
I remember growin up and seeing signs about "no pets except seeing eye dogs". So I can understand the general population not being up on the ADA regulations. 
This is one of those areas where if you are directly effected by something you are likely to be very knowledgeable about the laws. For your average person, they think service dog=seeing eye dog.

I think this could be a great opportunity to help educate the general public about service dogs. Maybe still contact the media but instead if bringing the restaurant into it make it more of a general awareness story.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Max's Dad said:


> You have every right to be angry. No documentation is necessary. I would suggest you put your complaint to corporate in writing. My other suggestion would be to obtain a "tag" that you can carry with you that identifies your dog as a "service dog". The tags are available at several sites on the internet for a nominal charge. While you are correct on the law, having a tag or license will make your life easier.


" I walked in with Caira (my service dog) in a vest (clearly marked),"


No tag or vest is required, but she was already wearing her service dog vest.

I appreciate he apologized, but this is not a new law and service dogs have ALWAYS been allowed in food establishments. I guess it's a good thing the law has been clarified, I just wish everyone knew it.

Also, I don't think he had any idea what the law covers or he wouldn't have asked for "papers". Nice excuse for his ignorance, the law was updated, but he was blowing smoke.

I'm glad it was resolved to your satisfaction.


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

What about approaching the restaurant about hosting a "Service Dog Night". That might be something to approach the media about. It would make a nice human interest story, plus they can focus on the upcoming Sept 1 changes to the state laws. Maybe a small percentage of the nights sales could be donated to a service animal organization. 

You and others that depend on service dogs win by getting the word out, the restaurant gets some free goodwill publicity (and positive reinforcement for doing the right thing). 

Just a thought.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

When I worked in restaurants we always had signs in the server area posting the laws of the ABC and the Board of Health. The ADA should make the same type of signs with the laws so they can be posted where the employees can learn and be reminded of them.


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## JLC44 (Jun 18, 2013)

cubbysan said:


> But the ADA has failed to educate the public. I know the laws because of these forums, but if my 16 year old daughter had a summer job, she would be Federally mandated to be trained on diversity, she would be trained on ABC laws and board of health laws, but I doubt she would be trained on ADA laws. I never have been. She could be breaking the law and never know it, just thinking she was being a good employee.


It seems we agree that education is needed, just disagree on who should do it. If a business accommodates the public then it is their responsibility to train their employees, especially now that in many states denying access to a service dog is a misdemeanor. Post a copy of the ADA business brief and make employees aware of it.

That being said if the manager Ashley dealt with had been open to Ashley educating him about the law he could have confirmed what she told him within minutes, apologized and then there is no issue.


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

I like the idea of a service dog night. When I spoke to him on the phone I offered to attend their company meeting with my dog to discuss ADA and service dog laws with them, but he kind of changed the subject. :/


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

cubbysan said:


> When I worked in restaurants we always had signs in the server area posting the laws of the ABC and the Board of Health. The ADA should make the same type of signs with the laws so they can be posted where the employees can learn and be reminded of them.





cubbysan said:


> But the ADA has failed to educate the public. I know the laws because of these forums, but if my 16 year old daughter had a summer job, she would be Federally mandated to be trained on diversity, she would be trained on ABC laws and board of health laws, but I doubt she would be trained on ADA laws. I never have been. She could be breaking the law and never know it, just thinking she was being a good employee.


I think some of the confusion here is that you seem to be referring to the ADA as a group of people or a government department. It's not. It's simply the name of the law. The failure to educate belongs to the businesses that don't include information about the ADA in their orientation process. Most companies are already doing diversity training. They do this on their own accord to avoid lawsuits, as was mentioned earlier -- not because some government group told them to. They would serve themselves well to include information about the ADA and, specifically, about service animals. But it is up to them to do it... just as it is their responsibility to follow the law.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Jersey's Mom said:


> I think some of the confusion here is that you seem to be referring to the ADA as a group of people or a government department. It's not. It's simply the name of the law. The failure to educate belongs to the businesses that don't include information about the ADA in their orientation process. Most companies are already doing diversity training. They do this on their own accord to avoid lawsuits, as was mentioned earlier -- not because some government group told them to. They would serve themselves well to include information about the ADA and, specifically, about service animals. But it is up to them to do it... just as it is their responsibility to follow the law.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz


Exactly. And whoever "they" are, and is tasked with managing compliance, does provide the information easily available on the web - as has been posted. No gov't agency can afford to "train" the entire US, especially on such a simple rule. Business needs to step up to the plate themselves, it's just the cost of doing business. It's a pretty small thing to require those blessed with health and mobility. It's not rocket science. 

Now perhaps the local health depts could include a mention of it in their literature, which is a major source of info for restaurants. But often that info gets ignored too. You can drag a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I understand that ADA is a set of laws, but isn't there some sort of advocacy group that would benefit by pushing education of the laws?

Totally not the same but recently there has been a push here to educate the general public about cycling laws (ie: 5ft passing rule, cyclist taking lane, etc...). These are laws that I as a cyclist am very aware of, but your general driver might not be-which leads to a lot of anomocity between the cycling community and drivers. These laws have been on the book for a very long time but there is simply a lack if awareness if them. One of the cycling advocacy groups in the area has taken it upon themselves to try to get the word out that there are actually laws about this. While its certainly not their responsibility to do so, it most definitely benefits the people they advocate for!


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I actually saw a commercial this morning about international assistance dog week coming up in August and it reminded me of this thread. I think it's a great thing to help with awareness.
International Assistance Dog Week


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

Very cool, I didn't know that service dogs had a week!


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I suspect Remy and Caira expect lots of presents!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Jennifer1 said:


> I actually saw a commercial this morning about international assistance dog week coming up in August and it reminded me of this thread. I think it's a great thing to help with awareness.
> International Assistance Dog Week


Now that is the type of awareness I was talking about. Awesome.


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## Lennap (Jul 9, 2010)

Jennifer1 said:


> I suspect Remy and Caira expect lots of presents!


ROFLMAO that is too funny but what makes you think Remy doesn't always expect lots of presents? The good news is that he has so many studies that they seem new to him each time he goes to the basket. Otherwise I would be broke!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Kind of off topic, but I went and read the ADA law. It said it had been recently revised so "comfort dogs" are no longer service dogs. 

I thought that many of these dogs that are now service dogs for our veterans and the autistic were comfort dogs. My understanding is if these dogs do not perform a task and only provide emotional support, they are no longer service dogs? Am I understanding this correctly?

Also, other service animals, except miniature horses are also no longer covered under the ADA?


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## JLC44 (Jun 18, 2013)

Dogs and mini-horses (in some cases) are all that are allowed by the ADA, some states still allow other species to be service animals.

Comfort dogs are not service dogs covered by the ADA. Psychiatric and Autism service dogs perform tasks so they are service dogs covered by the ADA. You are right that it is all about the tasks.

For example Camaro is our son's Autism Service Dog. He is trained for behavior disruption techniques, tethering, and tracking. When my son begins to have a meltdown Camaro goes to him and uses the appropriate way to draw son's attention to Camaro which stops the meltdown.

Before we got Camaro meltdowns were 90 minutes of restraining son while he yelled, kicked, bit, hit, cried, spit, etc. Since we got Camaro they are a short outburst, Camaro reacts, and it is over in a couple minutes.

Here is a link that explains Psych Service Dogs and possible tasks for them http://www.iaadp.org/psd_tasks.html


Hope that better explains it for you.

__


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

JLC44 said:


> Before we got Camaro meltdowns were 90 minutes of restraining son while he yelled, kicked, bit, hit, cried, spit, etc. Since we got Camaro they are a short outburst, Camaro reacts, and it is over in a couple minutes.


I think I love Camaro!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

JLC44 said:


> Dogs and mini-horses (in some cases) are all that are allowed by the ADA, some states still allow other species to be service animals.
> 
> Comfort dogs are not service dogs covered by the ADA. Psychiatric and Autism service dogs perform tasks so they are service dogs covered by the ADA. You are right that it is all about the tasks.
> 
> ...


Thank you, yes it does explain it. I thought they were for just emotional support.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I also believe that many if the veterans dogs are for PTSD. I believe those are still considered service dogs.

There is a Facebook page that I follow called "paws and stripes". It raises funds to get service dogs for vets. I believe they do thinks like nudge their person when they start to show signs of stress


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## JLC44 (Jun 18, 2013)

Yes veterans with PTSD can get a service dog, they are Psychiatric SDs. There is a large list of tasks that could be used depending on what the handler needs. I linked to an article by IAADP explaining many of them in the previous post.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

That's true my amazing all of the things they are trained to do. I had no idea!


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## hored (Sep 8, 2012)

It reminds me of a WWYD segment...

What Would You Do? Service dog segment. - YouTube


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## fletchermrs (Jul 20, 2013)

OMG how disgusting. Quartz who is my daughters Autism Assistance dog wears a blue jacket when we are out we also have a little id wallet which states the Equality act 2010 in the UK so if we have any problems we just show this but so far all has been ok. I'm so sorry you have had to go through this, no wonder you are upset and angry x


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