# October Field training



## hotel4dogs

Looking for more awesome drawings from Anney!


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## K9-Design

HAHAHAHA 

No diagram tonight, I trained just briefly at Lazy J with two of my buddies, they kept going but I had to leave and book it to agility class 

Slater just did 2 long land blinds which he had no trouble with, and Bally 3 marks. One he clearly did not see, I sent him and he just never really got into the area, eventually I quacked the thing and launched another one and he dashed and got that. Then short mark with shackled bird (yay), then a looooooooong land mark shot out of the huge winger, I thought he had gone way deep of it but then he pounced on it -- he totally nailed it. Go honey!


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## Claudia M

Back to the "cursed" place this Sunday. 

I have been trying to figure out why Rose does not like this place and I get refusals from her there. I have decided to out-stubborn her and go to every training day there which is once a month. 
This time there will also be fliers (not just stinky old birds which she is not too excited about) so I am really hoping :crossfing that this would catch her attention and forget about the bad experience she had there before or whatever it is in her head about this place.

I was talking to another person who goes there to training and was told that there is this spot behind the ponds and if a bird is placed there no dog would get it voluntarily. I hope this person will be at training day and show me the spot. Maybe it is time I have a dog party over there. 

Haven't worked them much lately (DH has been in and out of the hospital) Did some retrieves on cut up thistles and into the corn field. Princess Rose decided to go around the thistles so I decided to have a walk and some fun bumpers in the thistle field. 

Both girls had no problem disappearing in the corn field and finding the bumper but it was a bit difficult to find their way out with the bumper in the mouth - the darn thing was getting stuck between the corn stalks. I guess cigar holding would have helped in those situation!


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## Vhuynh2

I was very happy with Molly earlier this week. The blind was across water and maybe 65 yards up the shore. The swim was about 40 yards. It wasn't pretty getting her across the pond. It was quite ugly, in fact. But, when she finally made it across and got out the other side, she didn't stop and continued to take a good line. A small but wonderful victory. I remember when I had trouble casting her back beyond the shoreline because she was so convinced that the pile should be at the water's edge.

Today, I had a session with our trainer. I told him Molly couldn't do angle backs in the water. She does them on land so it was a little baffling. He had me show him what I was doing and sure enough Molly would take a straight back every time I gave her an angle back. He told me my problem was that I was casting too quickly after the whistle and not letting her tread water. He had me make Molly tread for 2-3 seconds before casting, and she took the casts just fine. I do wait to cast on land but I guess the habit didn't make it over to water. Overall it was a very good session.


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## hotel4dogs

We had a good training session today, too. More channel work, and then some very challenging water singles with live ducks. Makes his day.


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## boomers_dawn

Met TB#2 for quick training after work, have to hurry now b/c gets dark when we're done! We are truly dum and dummer. One may wonder how anyone could screw up setting up walking singles, but .. there's us! I told him what I wanted but there's some communication gap. Oh well, Dee Dee got some singles in then I threw singles for his dog. It was fun, I will give it that


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## Claudia M

I envy you guys for being able to train this often. I am very lucky when I get to train both days of the weekend. I do try to go at least once a week and get them acclimated to the changing water temperatures.


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## Jige

Once again Jige is doing better with his water entries and swimming much longer distances just in time for the water to freeze here. We train at east 2 times a week I really like getting him out there 3-4 times but it doesn't always happen. We have done a lot of in out marks this summer and I am very pleased with this especially since he doesn't like the water that much. To get him to swim back from the other side is a huge plus to me. We started doing blinds this summer also right now I am only working on straight backs. I will work on overs once I feel confident he truly understands his straight backs. W will just keep plugging away at this and see how far we can go. I do enjoy training him and he enjoys the work so that is where we are at.


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## hollyk

General V post made me laugh. I was just thinking about that today test are over for the year.Now that we have a six month wait for next year's tests, Winter is running really well and hitting every line I give her. 
Worked on land blinds that had suction. She did a nice job and she is nailed back down from the whistle slipping.


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## TrailDogs

We had our first pheasant shoot of the season, it was rainy in the morning, hot and humid later as the sun came out. Fortunately there was a pond for cooling off. She came home with 1000 little burrs in her coat. The cover was intense in some areas. Needless to say we had a great time. She is one happy dog.


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## hotel4dogs

Great photos traildogs!


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## TrailDogs

hotel4dogs said:


> Great photos traildogs!


Thanks, it was fun day. Maybe someday we'll follow in Tito's footsteps and try the MHU! I just can't get her to flush chukar or quail - she either grabs them off the ground or points them. Pheasant are no problem because they fly when the dog gets close. Although I have occasionally seen her trap those in thick cover and grab them.
Maybe I should try pointer trials


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## K9-Design

Central FL HRC had their "mock hunt test" day today -- weather has finally broken and it was beautiful -- a high of 80 and low humidity.
They set it up with 6 "stakes" -- land & water for each level, and you could buy a $5 ticket per run and go back and buy more tickets as many as you wanted.
I looked at each stake and devised what I wanted to run.
Finished Land was a very nice triple + blind, middle bird was long, through a valley with very tall cover (dog fennel) and over a log. Blind was deep and left of the cover, so dogs wanted to fall down into the cover. Slater did the setup and Bally all singles, both did great!
Finished Water was not something I liked at all -- to me didn't look like anything finished -- marks were two down the shore and very long, and the blind was very easy just a swim across the pond on the point! Uhhhh, whatever. I couldn't find anything I wanted to do so we skipped that.
Bally ran Seasoned and Started water and Seasoned lands (all as steady singles). He also did a walk-up -- first time ever 
I ran Slater at Seasoned land but switched it all up -- had them throw the double, then I no'ed him off it and ran the blind. On the way back from the blind they threw a diversion bird over his head, now pick up all 3 marks. He did it great 
Good football today too!!!!!


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## hotel4dogs

You should, it's a blast!
It's okay if they grab them off the ground (trapped birds), but pointing them is not acceptable. Tito traps a lot of birds. They "planted" one right in a patch of bare mud so that he could get a flush at one test!




TrailDogs said:


> Thanks, it was fun day. Maybe someday we'll follow in Tito's footsteps and try the MHU! I just can't get her to flush chukar or quail - she either grabs them off the ground or points them. Pheasant are no problem because they fly when the dog gets close. Although I have occasionally seen her trap those in thick cover and grab them.
> Maybe I should try pointer trials


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## boomers_dawn

We had our fun trial today. Dee Dee did junior singles, did fine marking, had some hunt on one but stayed in the area - no going to the gunner, the bird bag, or the wrong side of the station. She started to screw around on one delivery but other than that was a good puppy. 

Now I have a question - this isn't about me.

Remember when I judged the fun trial a couple years ago, I found the rules to be kind of vague, but the most feedback I got from the event organizer, dog skool teecher, and others on here, you draw a picture of the lines the dog took to the mark, and the one with the least squiggles and pencil marks on the paper wins. I thought that was the purpose of marking - the most direct route to the bird - the straightest lines to the bird, not cheating etc.

So someone I know ran a FT and didn't think she did that well b/c her dog cheated really bad getting in the water. She asked the judges why she placed so well, and they told her they considered marking the dog knowing where the bird is, moreso than taking a straight line to it.

Now this makes me think everything I thought about marking was all wrong.
Can anyone help me with this? I just don't get it. Is judging just so subjective that it's not supposed to make sense? Or maybe I just don't get it. It goes against everything I thought I knew.


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## Claudia M

TrailDogs said:


> We had our first pheasant shoot of the season, it was rainy in the morning, hot and humid later as the sun came out. Fortunately there was a pond for cooling off. She came home with 1000 little burrs in her coat. The cover was intense in some areas. Needless to say we had a great time. She is one happy dog.


When I see your dog as well as Buffy, glgdi's golden is my vision of what a field golden retriever structure and look should be at. 

I think it is pointless to add how much I adore your dog!


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## Claudia M

Phew - we went to our "cursed" place. First time EVER Rose had fliers there. And knowing how much she likes birds (especially live and fresh ones) we started with the flier. And from there on it is a story-tail. I hope we broke the ice with that place because everything else went great from there on both on land and water. We were in two groups of 23 dogs per group. Again a 12 hour trip from the moment we left the house to the moment we got back to the house.


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## gdgli

boomers_dawn said:


> We had our fun trial today. Dee Dee did junior singles, did fine marking, had some hunt on one but stayed in the area - no going to the gunner, the bird bag, or the wrong side of the station. She started to screw around on one delivery but other than that was a good puppy.
> 
> Now I have a question - this isn't about me.
> 
> Remember when I judged the fun trial a couple years ago, I found the rules to be kind of vague, but the most feedback I got from the event organizer, dog skool teecher, and others on here, you draw a picture of the lines the dog took to the mark, and the one with the least squiggles and pencil marks on the paper wins. I thought that was the purpose of marking - the most direct route to the bird - the straightest lines to the bird, not cheating etc.
> 
> So someone I know ran a FT and didn't think she did that well b/c her dog cheated really bad getting in the water. She asked the judges why she placed so well, and they told her they considered marking the dog knowing where the bird is, moreso than taking a straight line to it.
> 
> Now this makes me think everything I thought about marking was all wrong.
> Can anyone help me with this? I just don't get it. Is judging just so subjective that it's not supposed to make sense? Or maybe I just don't get it. It goes against everything I thought I knew.


Marking is knowing where the bird is and getting to it. We have one dog in our group who my mentor says is the best marker in our group. However, that dog doesn't always take the straightest line. But my mentor pointed out that this dog never misses the bird. OK, a straighter line is more desirable but this dog shows that he most definitely knows where the bird is. 

BTW, did your friend run a derby? I am not a FT judge but somewhere I read that Derby is not supposed to be about the straightest line but it is about knowing where the bird is.


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## Claudia M

hahaha story-tail - something weird about this auto correct thingy.


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## K9-Design

Well we had a slightly disastrous training session today but I am taking some positives away from it.
First we set up influential lining drill with 12 white buckets arranged rather randomly from 10 to 70 yards away. It's just a lining drill, but if they head to a wrong pile it turns into a casting drill, and is REALLY great at tuning up on both. This went just fine for everybody.

We only had a limited amount of daylight yet so we set up two marks -- in line double with short bird at about 40 yards and long bird at about 75 yards - so relatively close together. Here's where the shenanigans started. Sophie (Bally's mom) up first, had to be handled on go-bird (over ran it). Wouldn't commit to long bird, and went sent was going way wide right of it -- I thought she was trying to be good and flare the area of the go-bird, but nope -- we totally did NOT see that there was a BLIND STAKE with BUMPERS off to the right of the long mark -- but Sophie did, and ran right to it and brought back a bumper. WTH was that doing there? She totally forgot about the memory bird then and needed help.
Slater up next. Picks up go-bird. Have trouble lining up and locking onto memory bird. Finally send him, it quickly becomes apparent that he is going to the blind stake too, so I let him. Obviously it was much more visible to them than us, and we HAD just finished running a lining drill! Comes back with bumper, I line up on memory bird again, he proceeds to run right to the where the short bird fell (granted, it was in line) and puts his nose down. Whistle - NO - BACK. He books it out of there and gets near the long bird station, turns and pops! What the heck! I look down on my transmitter to make sure it's on the right level, Slater sees this and takes off. LOL He proceeded to put on a monster hunt for the memory bird which he obviously has no recollection of, but he DID stay out there, never popped again, never came back near the go-bird, never bailed and tried to go back to the blind stake, and did eventually work it out and find it on his own. So there's my positive take-away from it 

Up next was Millie, picks up go bird, takes great line to the long bird, gets out there, and must have winded the freaking blind stake, totally bails on her hunt and tries to exit stage right and go to it, much whistling and casting ensued to get her to leave it. My only comment on the whole set up was, "Well I guess it was hard!!!" LOL

We moved the line over perpendicular to the marks because I wanted to do a teaching double with Bally. Kristin threw the memory bird as a single first, he picked that up. We shot off the double, and when the winger tossed the go-bird, horses in the field next door took off in a thundering herd, when I sent Bally he ran right over the bird, all the way to the fence and chased the horses until they out-ran him, then he came barreling back to me. O-M-G

I was determined to do this stupid double so we re-loaded the winger, and that's when I realized that I dropped my transmitter so I had to go retrace my steps and luckily did find it.

OK back to the mat, throw double again for Bally, this time it went off without a hitch and he actually did SUPER so I was really happy with that 

LAST dog to go was Kristin's 7 month old puppy. Did those two marks as singles. The 2nd one was a fresh killed big fluffy drake mallard I got from the training day yesterday, never been frozen. Well the puppy snatched that thing up and took off with it, wouldn't let Kristin catch her! LOL When we finally did wrangle her in she wouldn't give up the bird. OMG what a freakin gong show this whole session was!!!!!!


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## Jige

boomers_dawn said:


> We had our fun trial today. Dee Dee did junior singles, did fine marking, had some hunt on one but stayed in the area - no going to the gunner, the bird bag, or the wrong side of the station. She started to screw around on one delivery but other than that was a good puppy.
> 
> Now I have a question - this isn't about me.
> 
> Remember when I judged the fun trial a couple years ago, I found the rules to be kind of vague, but the most feedback I got from the event organizer, dog skool teecher, and others on here, you draw a picture of the lines the dog took to the mark, and the one with the least squiggles and pencil marks on the paper wins. I thought that was the purpose of marking - the most direct route to the bird - the straightest lines to the bird, not cheating etc.
> 
> So someone I know ran a FT and didn't think she did that well b/c her dog cheated really bad getting in the water. She asked the judges why she placed so well, and they told her they considered marking the dog knowing where the bird is, moreso than taking a straight line to it.
> 
> Now this makes me think everything I thought about marking was all wrong.
> Can anyone help me with this? I just don't get it. Is judging just so subjective that it's not supposed to make sense? Or maybe I just don't get it. It goes against everything I thought I knew.


 I have had judges in both AKC and UKC watch Jige mark and they tell me he is one of the best markers they have watched, does he take a straight line NO but he goes right to the bird every time. I have talked to a lot of judges too and they have told me that straight lines are nice but they really seeing a dog mark and get the bird with flare and fashion.


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## gdgli

Claudia M said:


> When I see your dog as well as Buffy, glgdi's golden is my vision of what a field golden retriever structure and look should be at.
> 
> I think it is pointless to add how much I adore your dog!


I suspect that TrailDogs and I like field dogs of the same type. Admittedly, this type is not everyone's cup of tea.


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## Claudia M

gdgli said:


> Marking is knowing where the bird is and getting to it. We have one dog in our group who my mentor says is the best marker in our group. However, that dog doesn't always take the straightest line. But my mentor pointed out that this dog never misses the bird. OK, a straighter line is more desirable but this dog shows that he most definitely knows where the bird is.
> 
> BTW, did your friend run a derby? I am not a FT judge but somewhere I read that Derby is not supposed to be about the straightest line but it is about knowing where the bird is.


that is Rose's fault to a T. She marks excellent, she knows where the bird is but if she encounters thistles or something on the way she will not take a straight line unless it is an injured flier. She would go thru a mountain to go straight to that bird.


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## FTGoldens

gdgli said:


> Marking is knowing where the bird is and getting to it. We have one dog in our group who my mentor says is the best marker in our group. However, that dog doesn't always take the straightest line. But my mentor pointed out that this dog never misses the bird. OK, a straighter line is more desirable but this dog shows that he most definitely knows where the bird is.
> 
> BTW, did your friend run a derby? I am not a FT judge but somewhere I read that Derby is not supposed to be about the straightest line but it is about knowing where the bird is.


Naturally good marking dogs are a pleasure to watch, sometimes a heart-attack inducer for the handler.

Derbies are supposed to be all about natural abilities, with a bit of steadiness thrown in for good measure. Good FT judges understand how to set up true marking tests v concepts ... frankly, it's not an easy task with today's plethora of highly trained good markers. [Side note: To me, Derbies are the hardest stake of all to judge.] Good FT judges put "factors" in route to the birds in order to alter the dogs' path to see if the dogs are lining to the birds or actually recall where the birds went down. (BTW, distance is a factor.) A dog that can be thrown off course, yet go directly (maybe not straight) to the bird shows a good mark. But beware, it is not uncommon for Derby judges to judge lines ... unfortunately. 

And then there's the question of how to judge a dog that goes around water/cover but pins the mark ... did it disturb too much ground, did it intentionally avoid rough going (those are mentioned in the rule book) ... if yes, how do you judge it?

FTGoldens


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## Alaska7133

Every time I go to the line I never really know for sure what my dog is going to do. I hope I have it figured out, but I'm continually amazed. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not.

No training lately other than hunting. Lucy is learning that just because she is hunting, it doesn't mean she doesn't have to mind me. I'm working on teaching her the division of work and play when we're on the mudflats. She's a good girl. I've been leaving all the boys at home. I've been hitting the shooting clay range pretty hard trying to make sure I hit those clay pigeons. Shooting orange discs out of the sky isn't that easy. DH is happy I'm enjoying shooting more, he's encouraging my sneaking out of work during the weekday to go shoot. 

Miss Lucy & I have been working with a pro handler to get better in the show ring. I'm learning a lot and Lucy is getting fat on hot dogs in the process. Numbers are out for gundog sweeps and we will have 11 junior hunter bitches in the ring. That's a lot more than last year I think. I'm hoping to at least place. The other classes are larger except for master hunter. I think Anney will have only 2 dogs in master hunter dogs in total. We're in amateur owner handler bitches too. Here's the numbers: http://www.foytrentdogshows.com/forms/Counts/Counts_2014_Goldens.pdf


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## boomers_dawn

FTGoldens said:


> Naturally good marking dogs are a pleasure to watch, sometimes a heart-attack inducer for the handler.
> 
> Derbies are supposed to be all about natural abilities, with a bit of steadiness thrown in for good measure. Good FT judges understand how to set up true marking tests v concepts ... frankly, it's not an easy task with today's plethora of highly trained good markers. [Side note: To me, Derbies are the hardest stake of all to judge.] Good FT judges put "factors" in route to the birds in order to alter the dogs' path to see if the dogs are lining to the birds or actually recall where the birds went down. (BTW, distance is a factor.) A dog that can be thrown off course, yet go directly (maybe not straight) to the bird shows a good mark. But beware, it is not uncommon for Derby judges to judge lines ... unfortunately.
> 
> And then there's the question of how to judge a dog that goes around water/cover but pins the mark ... did it disturb too much ground, did it intentionally avoid rough going (those are mentioned in the rule book) ... if yes, how do you judge it?
> 
> FTGoldens


What is setting up a true marking test v. concept?

So it sounds like in field trial judging, memory is more important than perserverance, and the function of factors is to test the memory (e.g. get side tracked then remember where to go) much as in a hunt test, the judges would put a factor on the way to the blind to get the dog off track and see that it can stop and handle - not just line the blind.

To your question about disturbing ground and avoiding obstacles: when I read the FT rules and prepped for judging, it seemed like marking was the primary concern and the other stuff - style, manners, trainability, etc ... you can't score or grade them like at a HT. Unless you make your own measuring tool. Then you would have to get your co-judge on board with that. I agreed in advance with mine we would go by least amount of pencil on the paper, then do tie breakers with style on top and filtering the trainability problems toward the bottom (e.g. dropping the bird, etc.). 

So since you don't score it (disturbing ground and avoiding obstacles), I guess you don't judge it. Is that the answer to FT's question? You don't?

Is it field trial go directly to bird, hunt test go directly to bird in straight line?

While we're on this topic, I attached an image. 
Can we play a game? It's called "You be the Judge". Anyone who feels comfortable, please participate. I want to understand marking and I think I'm learning we want different things from HT or FT.

So - In a field trial, Who is the better marker - pink line or blue line? And why?

Winner learns something new or gets a different perspective.

Ok, I'll go first - before we started this conversation, I thought blue was better because going to the gun station is wrong. But now maybe pink is better because the dog went in the right direction, remembered something went from point A to point B so went from point A to point B, if it was clear the dog was using it's memory to find point B, then pink is better for a field trial. (I think blue is clearly better for a HT).


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## K9-Design

Slight edge to blue. Blue proceeded directly to AOF, kept a tight hunt and persevered to the bird.
Pink line did a nearly equal job. Proceeded to AOF and persevered to the bird. I'm not crazy about the visit to the gunner but the gunner IS in the AOF. 
If the wind was going left to right these are not unreasonable hunts, both dogs should have no trouble coming back to the next series 

BTW Carol Cassity defined the AOF as twice the distance from gunner to bird on the front side of the gunner, and once the distance to the bird on the back side of the gun. Larger AOF for memory birds. Of course this is just a good rule of thumb and it will vary within reason for each individual mark, but it's something to keep in mind.


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## Claudia M

I am definitely not experienced enough and never seen Field Trials other than training for it. 
So from my novice experience I would go with blue . And I am going more by hunting the AOF. I do not know how far the bird fell from the gunner but my understanding is that the AOF is the diameter of a certain percentage of the dog's distance to the bird. From your drawing it shows a tight hunt. HAhaha - maybe a lab with good marking ability but not good enough nose to help once he got there!

The pink shows to me that the dog may have taken the gun shot cue more than marking the bird falling.


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## gdgli

K9-Design said:


> Slight edge to blue. Blue proceeded directly to AOF, kept a tight hunt and persevered to the bird.
> Pink line did a nearly equal job. Proceeded to AOF and persevered to the bird. I'm not crazy about the visit to the gunner but the gunner IS in the AOF.
> If the wind was going left to right these are not unreasonable hunts, both dogs should have no trouble coming back to the next series
> 
> BTW Carol Cassity defined the AOF as twice the distance from gunner to bird on the front side of the gunner, and once the distance to the bird on the back side of the gun. Larger AOF for memory birds. Of course this is just a good rule of thumb and it will vary within reason for each individual mark, but it's something to keep in mind.


I don't agree. The pink marked the gunner, not the bird. I think it is bigger than a slight edge.


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## K9-Design

Actually, pink DID take a VERY GOOD INITIAL LINE (look where she goes before turning left toward the gun) but got pulled to the gunner for some reason. We do not know where the wind is coming from. If the wind is going left to right then it is very reasonable that pink winded the gunner's birds and went there first to investigate, then very intelligently hunted her way back to the fall. Blue ended up on the downwind side of the fall so had no reason to leave, but did have a lengthy although intelligent hunt. 
Personally these are both good marks and in competition there probably wouldn't be much separation or discussion on either.


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## gdgli

I don't know---Blue went to the AOF, established a hunt, never left AOF and came up with the bird. Pink was in the AOF and left it.


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## FTGoldens

In my opinion, both had an acceptable mark on that bird and would make it to the next series. If that was for the last series and the only separation is on that bird, I'd be a little bit ... no, a whole lot ashamed that I was unable to create tests that caused more separation. 
As for remaining in the AOF, at least in my book, they both stayed in it. 
If FORCED to judge solely on that mark, I'd give the nod to blue since it indicated a mark from the beginning and kept a tighter hunt around the bird ... but again, shame on me if that's the only separation that my tests caused.
FTGoldens


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## FTGoldens

K9-Design said:


> BTW Carol Cassity defined the AOF as twice the distance from gunner to bird on the front side of the gunner, and once the distance to the bird on the back side of the gun.


That's considerably more generous that I typically encounter on weekends. 
FTGoldens


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## K9-Design

gdgli said:


> I don't know---Blue went to the AOF, established a hunt, never left AOF and came up with the bird. Pink was in the AOF and left it.



How can you call the area between the gunner and the fall, NOT in the area of the fall?? Pink absolutely stayed in the AOF the entire time and never left it.


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## K9-Design

FTGoldens said:


> That's considerably more generous that I typically encounter on weekends.
> FTGoldens


True -- especially for FT -- BUT I do think it's a good rule of thumb in training. I believe she said this in reference to how to handle it in training -- whether to handle, call back, have gunner help, etc, depending on where the dog goes.


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## gdgli

K9-Design said:


> How can you call the area between the gunner and the fall, NOT in the area of the fall?? Pink absolutely stayed in the AOF the entire time and never left it.


OK, I didn't see it the way you saw it. I have a definition of AOF that differs from yours. However, your definition may be a better one.

I agree, both dogs got the bird and should not be dropped.


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## Claudia M

K9-Design said:


> How can you call the area between the gunner and the fall, NOT in the area of the fall?? Pink absolutely stayed in the AOF the entire time and never left it.


It all depends on the distance TO the bird. If the bird fell 45 yards away from the gunner and the dog is 250 yards away from the bird I can see how the gunner would be in the AOF but I can not see how the gunner could be considered in the AOF at 100 yards. 

I am assuming since Dawn asked the question from a FT point of view that this would be a long mark 200 or more yards.


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## hollyk

I agree both go to the next series. I think I would have to know the wind, other marks/ influences and watch a few dogs run to say who did it did it better.
Hmm, was I told that in FT's that dogs will often mark the gunner and figure it out from there? 
I might have to check out a FT or two next year.


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## K9-Design

Claudia M said:


> It all depends on the distance TO the bird. If the bird fell 45 yards away from the gunner and the dog is 250 yards away from the bird I can see how the gunner would be in the AOF but I can not see how the gunner could be considered in the AOF at 100 yards.
> 
> I am assuming since Dawn asked the question from a FT point of view that this would be a long mark 200 or more yards.


I would like to hire the gunner who can throw a bird 45 yards.

15-25 yards is what you're normally going to get unless it's a winged flyer that happened to sail 45 yards from the gunners. And in most tests, that's going to get you a no-bird.


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## K9-Design

I think it is important to know that "Area of the fall" is a completely subjective and plastic term. You know it when you see it. And judges are judges, not score keepers, so there will always be a human element involved and interpretation of opinion.

And while I really like the discussion on this particular example, it doesn't really demonstrate Dawn's original questions : is "marking" the dog with the straightest line, or the dog with the quickest hunt? Is there a difference? In the example provided, we don't know if this is the last half of the mark, or the last 10th of the mark. Nothing was shown to have deviated the dog from its path. Both dogs had extended hunts. 

Field trials are "anything goes" in terms of judging -- AKC doesn't make the judges keep score. HTs are scored. The scoring system for HTs accounts for "PERSEVERANCE" as a major factor in marks. That means these two dogs may have both stomped on the bird, but one gets MAJOR dings for lack of perseverance:









One dog gets a 10 for perseverance, the other gets a decidedly lower score in that category, probably not enough to prevent it from passing, but definitely leaving it bleeding.

This is where the "natural tendency" vs. "learned behavior" comes into play.......


----------



## Claudia M

K9-Design said:


> *I would like to hire the gunner who can throw a bird 45 yards.*
> 
> 15-25 yards is what you're normally going to get unless it's a winged flyer that happened to sail 45 yards from the gunners. And in most tests, that's going to get you a no-bird.


It is probably cheaper to buy a launcher!


----------



## K9-Design

I would love to know a launcher that can throw a BIRD 45 yards......


----------



## boomers_dawn

Claudia M said:


> my understanding is that the AOF is the diameter of a certain percentage of the dog's distance to the bird.


No wonder I don't get this stuff, there's math involved. :nervous:

I'll try to fill in some of the blanks:
It was windy but all I remember was thinking "crap more wrinkles".

I would say the mark was thrown about 40 yards out from the thrower with a winger** (I couldn't draw a stick winger with Microsoft Paint). I think the winger was more for consistency than distance, it was a Tangelo Tosser with bungee cords (not rubber tubing) set on top/top. Some wingers with loose bungees throw consistently but not too far. I would estimate the mark to be about 50-60 yards in distance from the line. It was the second fun single, well away from the first.

The judges were fun trial volunteers - yep you get what you pay for. (I can make this joke, because I was one a couple yrs ago).

In the example I drew, I was lumping marking off the gunner in with cheating/perserverance issues into one category of not taking the most direct route. Thank you Anney for drawing an accurate depiction of the "cheating" issue. Both of these represent concepts in field trial judging that are baffling to me, that I'm gaining some insights into, thanks to everyone here. For example, the idea that marking off the gunner could possibly be better than a long hunt. 

I'm not sure what this part means: In the example provided, we don't know if this is the last half of the mark, or the last 10th of the mark. 

Anyone else want to weigh in? Both dogs got called back, nailed the water marks, and I'll come back tomorrow and say who placed higher.

Thanks again!


----------



## Claudia M

K9-Design said:


> I would love to know a launcher that can throw a BIRD 45 yards......


Who said it has to be BIRDS? Many of the remote launchers are used in training. Very good investment and a great way to teach the dog to look where the "bird" falls and not where it comes from. 

You won't get many ducks in hunting if you shoot them only at 15 yards. Shooting a duck at 50 yards that duck can fall anywhere up to a 100 yards away. If you are a good shot you could take it at 60 to 70 yards.


----------



## Claudia M

boomers_dawn said:


> No wonder I don't get this stuff, there's math involved. :nervous:
> 
> I'll try to fill in some of the blanks:
> It was windy but all I remember was thinking "crap more wrinkles".
> 
> I would say the mark was *thrown about 40 yards out from the thrower* with a winger** (I couldn't draw a stick winger with Microsoft Paint). I think the winger was more for consistency than distance, it was a Tangelo Tosser with bungee cords (not rubber tubing) set on top/top. Some wingers with loose bungees throw consistently but not too far. I would estimate* the mark to be about 50-60 yards in distance from the line*. It was the second fun single, well away from the first.
> 
> The judges were fun trial volunteers - yep you get what you pay for. (I can make this joke, because I was one a couple yrs ago).
> 
> In the example I drew, I was lumping marking off the gunner in with cheating/perserverance issues into one category of not taking the most direct route. Thank you Anney for drawing an accurate depiction of the "cheating" issue. Both of these represent concepts in field trial judging that are baffling to me, that I'm gaining some insights into, thanks to everyone here. For example, the idea that marking off the gunner could possibly be better than a long hunt.
> 
> I'm not sure what this part means: In the example provided, we don't know if this is the last half of the mark, or the last 10th of the mark.
> 
> Anyone else want to weigh in? Both dogs got called back, nailed the water marks, and I'll come back tomorrow and say who placed higher.
> 
> Thanks again!


If those two are correct I would assume that pink will place way lower on this particular mark. He left the AOF and ran a distance almost as much as the line distance back to the gunner. 

It could be that the gunner moved or made a noise which deviated the dog from it's original track. 
haha - such as the blind workers yesterday who decided to re-bird while Rose was passing them to pick up her bird. :doh:


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## Vhuynh2

Today was one of those days. Molly wasn't made for this game. I'll never be able to teach her to become a great handling dog. That, and I'm probably doing something wrong, but she is not the dog to be learning with. She won't forgive my mistakes. I hope we can get through senior. If not, that's okay too. Then she can be my trail dog/hiking companion, the reason I got a puppy in the first place.


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## hollyk

Still working water as much as I can. This was yesterday's water blind, she did not one whistle it.


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## K9-Design

Claudia M said:


> Who said it has to be BIRDS? Many of the remote launchers are used in training. Very good investment and a great way to teach the dog to look where the "bird" falls and not where it comes from.


We were talking about testing or trialing and what judges might consider in placing or passing dogs...only birds are used.



> You won't get many ducks in hunting if you shoot them only at 15 yards. Shooting a duck at 50 yards that duck can fall anywhere up to a 100 yards away. If you are a good shot you could take it at 60 to 70 yards.


Once again -- we were talking about testing or trialing. Birds will be hand thrown, launched from wingers, or shot fliers, and we were referencing how far the bird landed from the gunner, not the distance of the marks.


----------



## K9-Design

boomers_dawn said:


> I was lumping marking off the gunner in with cheating/perserverance issues into one category of not taking the most direct route.


Hmmm. Yeah I think those are two very separate issues and also, not equal in their importance. And not to nit pick but in your illustration, "pink" dog did not run straight at the gunner, then hunt from there on out. She ran almost nearly directly to the bird, then for some reason got drawn to the gunner, then worked her way back to the bird. A different scenario than a dog who beelined it straight at the gunner from the line, then hunted out from there until it stumbled on the bird.


----------



## Claudia M

Vhuynh2 said:


> Today was one of those days. Molly wasn't made for this game. I'll never be able to teach her to become a great handling dog. That, and I'm probably doing something wrong, but she is not the dog to be learning with. She won't forgive my mistakes. I hope we can get through senior. If not, that's okay too. Then she can be my trail dog/hiking companion, the reason I got a puppy in the first place.


sometimes a break is necessary. For both of you.


----------



## Claudia M

K9-Design said:


> We were talking about testing or trialing and what judges might consider in placing or passing dogs...only birds are used.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again -- we were talking about testing or trialing. Birds will be hand thrown, launched from wingers, or shot fliers, and we were referencing how far the bird landed from the gunner, not the distance of the marks.


yup, as always you are absolutely correct. Some gunners cannot shoot a flier more than 10 yards away and thus that bird will fall in such way that the gunner will automatically become AOF. Dogs should be trained to go to the gunner when confused and find their way from there as long as the dog took a "straight" line towards what one calls the AOF. 

I learn something new every day. BTW - are the fliers launched from the winger dozed so they can't fly once in the air? If they wake up and they fly over the 10 yard distance so the birds can fall exactly in the "designated AOF" can they just run free and then re-bird the launcher? 

I don't know, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea to train with the remote launchers and help my dogs look for the fall and not the gunner, and thus progressively increase that distance.


----------



## boomers_dawn

K9-Design said:


> Hmmm. Yeah I think those are two very separate issues and also, not equal in their importance. And not to nit pick but in your illustration, "pink" dog did not run straight at the gunner, then hunt from there on out. She ran almost nearly directly to the bird, then for some reason got drawn to the gunner, then worked her way back to the bird. A different scenario than a dog who beelined it straight at the gunner from the line, then hunted out from there until it stumbled on the bird.


Great points. To me going to the gunner was going to the gunner, but I get the difference in the above example. 

Pink placed higher than blue. I didn't get that before this conversation, but now I can see it. I also see my own lack of knowledge causing me to oversimplify and appreciate a huge scope of factors to consider in marking besides the line the dog took to the bird. 

Thanks yall.


----------



## boomers_dawn

Vhuynh2 said:


> Today was one of those days. Molly wasn't made for this game. I'll never be able to teach her to become a great handling dog. That, and I'm probably doing something wrong, but she is not the dog to be learning with. She won't forgive my mistakes. I hope we can get through senior. If not, that's okay too. Then she can be my trail dog/hiking companion, the reason I got a puppy in the first place.


What does Molly do that makes you think she wasn't made for this game and that you can't work together?

If she's your first handling dog, I'm sure we've all felt this with our first handling dogs - learning curve for them and us.

Taking a break was a good suggestion. Then when you feel like trying again, back up and move forward. Two steps forward, one step back. 

I have felt so demoralized and defeated learning to handle with Gladys but kept up with taking a break / backing up and one day the lightbulb came on, it's like magic! 

Also I thought you had a trainer who gave you feedback, it can be brutal but you learn what parts you do that doesn't help or actually hinders and you can see a major difference in the dog when you help them more 

Go team


----------



## AmbikaGR

K9-Design said:


> I would like to hire the gunner who can throw a bird 45 yards.



Down South you might try hiring a guy by the name of Tebow. I hear he is not busy this time of year. :hide:


----------



## Claudia M

AmbikaGR said:


> Down South you might try hiring a guy by the name of Tebow. I hear he is not busy this time of year. :hide:


hahaha - I doubt Tebow comes cheaper than a bird launcher! Plus I am not sure he is such a good thrower after all! :


----------



## gdgli

K9-Design said:


> How can you call the area between the gunner and the fall, NOT in the area of the fall?? Pink absolutely stayed in the AOF the entire time and never left it.


BTW, my definition of AOF is (now maybe was) the area around the bird described by a circle whose radius is 1/10 the distance from the line to the bird.

My definition of AOF allows for changes in the dog's perception due to distance. Now looking at the description Dawn gave and use my definition of AOF, pink clearly was out of the AOF i.e. according to my definition. Also, the description of AOF according to Carol Cassity would allow the dog 40 yds. behind the gunner on a 60 yd. mark. Hmmm.....

As for a possible argument that 50-60 yd. marks are not used in field trials and Carol Cassity's definition would be appropriate, you may be right. Judges who don't use long marks I believe are not desirable as judges.

OK, lets look at birds used in a FT. Usually ducks but they don't have to be. Pheasants can be used. A cock pheasant flyer thrown out of a winger will probably be further out than a duck before the guns get on the bird and finally drop it. Now you have a bigger distance from gun to bird.

Now for field trial conditions---I attended a training session at SBGRC and one handler for whom I have the highest respect (Dawn, you know who it is) said that you could identify which dogs were marking off the white jackets rather then the fall of the bird. He said that the dogs that were trained with white jacket guns ONLY may do what pink did because they were primarily marking off the white jacket rather than the bird.

My final comment---I didn't really want to over analyze this but I didn't think that I was the only one who had this definition for AOF and this perspective. However I really am considering changing my definition. If I thought it appeared that outlandish I would have never made my post. And I would like to hear from others what their definition of AOF is.


----------



## Vhuynh2

boomers_dawn said:


> What does Molly do that makes you think she wasn't made for this game and that you can't work together?
> 
> If she's your first handling dog, I'm sure we've all felt this with our first handling dogs - learning curve for them and us.
> 
> Taking a break was a good suggestion. Then when you feel like trying again, back up and move forward. Two steps forward, one step back.
> 
> I have felt so demoralized and defeated learning to handle with Gladys but kept up with taking a break / backing up and one day the lightbulb came on, it's like magic!
> 
> Also I thought you had a trainer who gave you feedback, it can be brutal but you learn what parts you do that doesn't help or actually hinders and you can see a major difference in the dog when you help them more
> 
> Go team



Thank you for your encouragement. 

Molly is too sensitive. I can't correct her, verbally or with the collar, so I feel that I can't teach her. Everything has to be shown. I am also a bit of a perfectionist so I keep wanting better and I inadvertently push her too far sometimes when I should have just quit. This happens when I train alone, I should never be allowed to train by myself. For example, even though I want to take a break for awhile, I keep feeling that I need to go out and fix what went wrong yesterday. I wish I could just leave it. So, there is a bit of a personality clash. 

When I feel like none of us is having fun, I question why I am still doing this. We have good days and bad, but the bad days stick out like a sore thumb.


----------



## Alaska7133

gdgli said:


> Now for field trial conditions---I attended a training session at SBGRC and one handler for whom I have the highest respect (Dawn, you know who it is) said that you could identify which dogs were marking off the white jackets rather then the fall of the bird. He said that the dogs that were trained with white jacket guns ONLY may do what pink did because they were primarily marking off the white jacket rather than the bird.


That's an interesting comment about white coats versus camo in the field and dogs AOF being different. It would be nice to find out if that was the case, pups trained with white coats will mark X way versus pups trained with camo coats. I'd like to know if that's true. It makes sense to me that a white coat trained dog would mark off the gunner more Han the bird. FT and thought since your dogs are trained with white coats?

The other day I watched someone with a gps tag on his dog. He showed me the screen and he could see exactly how his pointers quartered the field. I would think the same device would be great for knowing exactly what your dog is doing in the field. Is it over running the bird, is it marking off the gunner, etc.?


----------



## FTGoldens

hollyk said:


> 1. Hmm, was I told that in FT's that dogs will often mark the gunner and figure it out from there?
> 2. I might have to check out a FT or two next year.


1. Indeed, dogs learn to mark off of the gunners; however, that gets a bit dicier when the gunners are retired. Some dogs do, however, learn that they need to remember where the retired gunners were standing. In fact, there are ways to train the dogs to begin remembering where the gunners were standing ... after all, on some really tough marks, getting the dog in the gunner's area will get a great score, particularly in the higher levels (not so much in the Derby).
2. Come on out and see them run! It's a blast to see just how talented these animals are ... I am often amazed at some of the performances. (Also, there's a huge difference in the quality of the handlers ... another thing to watch.)

FTGoldens


----------



## gdgli

Alaska7133 said:


> That's an interesting comment about white coats versus camo in the field and dogs AOF being different. It would be nice to find out if that was the case, pups trained with white coats will mark X way versus pups trained with camo coats. I'd like to know if that's true. It makes sense to me that a white coat trained dog would mark off the gunner more Han the bird. FT and thought since your dogs are trained with white coats?/QUOTE]
> 
> I think that many will disagree with my comment. However this came from someone who is a well respected handler. I am just the messenger. After he made the comment I watched what all the dogs did for this set of marks. It did seem that some keyed in on the bird and others keyed in on the white jacket. For all I know it is a result of incomplete training.


----------



## K9-Design

gdgli said:


> BTW, my definition of AOF is (now maybe was) the area around the bird described by a circle whose radius is 1/10 the distance from the line to the bird.


Huh, OK I've never heard this theory but I see what you're getting at. I think we may be comparing apples to oranges....



> the description of AOF according to Carol Cassity would allow the dog 40 yds. behind the gunner on a 60 yd. mark. Hmmm.....


I think maybe I didn't explain it well enough or you misunderstand me. In the CC rule of thumb, distance to the mark from the line wasn't part of the equation, although as we know in all practicality it does play a role as well as if it's a memory bird or not. In Carol's theory if you had a bird that landed 20 yards from the gunner, the AOF was an oval extending 20 yards past the bird, and 20 yards behind the gun. Again, you know it when you see it - it's not a hard and fast rule but it does give you a guideline. Typically we have to worry about "AOF" in relation to the questions of, did the dog leave the AOF and switch, did it actually get into the AOF and establish a hunt, etc. I can't see how anyone could watch a dog hunt around the gunner and NOT think it's in the AOF for that mark. It might not be ideal, but the gunner is definitely within the AOF. 




> He said that the dogs that were trained with white jacket guns ONLY may do what pink did because they were primarily marking off the white jacket rather than the bird.


Pink didn't go directly to the gun. She went almost nearly to the bird, then made a hard left toward the gunner. That is not marking off the gun in my book. It's almost stepping on the bird, then getting waylayed by some factor (wind scent, whatever).


----------



## gdgli

Well I do have an open mind and can change my POV. Again, I didn't think that I was the only person with this definition. AND, I did not invent this definition.

And I would really like to hear others' ideas of AOF. I probably need to update my ideas.


----------



## boomers_dawn

Vhuynh2 said:


> Thank you for your encouragement.
> 
> Molly is too sensitive. I can't correct her, verbally or with the collar, so I feel that I can't teach her. Everything has to be shown. I am also a bit of a perfectionist so I keep wanting better and I inadvertently push her too far sometimes when I should have just quit. This happens when I train alone, I should never be allowed to train by myself. For example, even though I want to take a break for awhile, I keep feeling that I need to go out and fix what went wrong yesterday. I wish I could just leave it. So, there is a bit of a personality clash.
> 
> When I feel like none of us is having fun, I question why I am still doing this. We have good days and bad, but the bad days stick out like a sore thumb.


I think you encouraged me in the past too  

I think I may understand the Molly part a bit. 
Like for awhile Gladys stopped doing something. She was getting stopped, No'd, and corrected so much, she started to do nothing. Like I would give her a cast and she would stare at me and do nothing. For some reason I recognized it not as disobedience but more as confusion and not knowing what to do so doing nothing. Is it like that?

I stopped doing activities that would require me to stop and correct and nit pik her so much, and went back to stuff she knew and building up activities, like lining drills and easy stuff - plain over and back. Once I got her confidence built back up, she started going again and she stopped the no goes and blank stares.

I think we've had observations on this forum about reading your dog and knowing when to push them vs. pull back. I think this goes for all dog training, like obedience too, if something is too hard that they can't do it without continuous correction then it's too hard and needs to be simplified, broken down, and steps re-traced. 

Plus if you simplify, that will help your need to fix stuff because she should be able to do the steps then you won't need to go back and fix it.

This part: I can't correct her, verbally or with the collar, so I feel that I can't teach her. 

Don't forget, the teaching should be in place FIRST.
Then the collar and corrections - for disobedience - not for not knowing.


I give Gladys the benefit of the doubt for not knowing or being confused before using the collar or yelling. I try to use the whistle instead of yell, as dog skool teecher says, it's an objective way of saying "stop", although as we have discussed on this forum recently, it does give the dog the message "no" "stop" and "that's wrong" so again ... reading and adjusting.

See, I think it IS rocket science. And don't even ask me about Area of the Fall, because I am not getting out my protractor and doing math or geometry today!


----------



## Alaska7133

I don't disagree with your comment. I'm just scrolling back in my memory of how my dogs appear in the field on their retrieves. The hard part is really knowing what your dogs are doing without a camera. I have found sometimes that sometimes you can't see very well due to cover or obstructions. It would be nice to really know from an aerial point of view what your dog is doing. Ah, now wouldn't it be nice to have a drone with a camera pointed down, showing you what exactly your dog is doing? I would love to have that opportunity. Hmmm...


----------



## Alaska7133

So you're standing at the line with your dog. You have a small camera screen on your wrist. You send your dog for the bird. While your dog runs out, you can view the whole thing on the screen using the camera on your drone. The drone can be filming the progress of the dog. You now have the ability to know what they are doing. When to nic, when to whistle stop and handle, or whatever. This would require a second person to run the drone especially if it's a bit windy to keep it on track. 

At the other end of my commercial building I rent space is a film company that films for national geographic shows. They have a new drone for filming they showed us out in the parking lot. Works wonderfully for $4,000. Camera and screen would be extra. Super quiet machine, just a gentle buzz. If I was a pro training 20 dogs at a crack, it would be something to consider. Electronics are pretty inexpensive these days, maybe something like this might be doable in the not so distance future. Then you would know, is my dog keying on the white coat or the bird.


----------



## hotel4dogs

I have no experience with field trials, but Dan trains HRC style, so his dogs (including Tito) don't mark off the gunner. Typically the winger is very well hidden, and there is no noise out in the field to cue the dog in to the mark except for the "whoosh" the winger itself makes when it launches, usually hard to hear from 100 yards out. 
We do sometimes use visible gun stations, especially when working on head swinging doh, but for the most part when the dogs get past Started level the gun stations aren't easy to see. I do believe it ultimately makes for better marking dogs, but would be open to hearing opposite opinions on that.
Holly, how does the pro you consult with do it?




FTGoldens said:


> 1. Indeed, dogs learn to mark off of the gunners; however, that gets a bit dicier when the gunners are retired. Some dogs do, however, learn that they need to remember where the retired gunners were standing. In fact, there are ways to train the dogs to begin remembering where the gunners were standing ... after all, on some really tough marks, getting the dog in the gunner's area will get a great score, particularly in the higher levels (not so much in the Derby).
> 2. Come on out and see them run! It's a blast to see just how talented these animals are ... I am often amazed at some of the performances. (Also, there's a huge difference in the quality of the handlers ... another thing to watch.)
> 
> FTGoldens


----------



## hotel4dogs

my dog would probably be waiting for someone to shoot the drone so he could go retrieve it :



Alaska7133 said:


> So you're standing at the line with your dog. You have a small camera screen on your wrist. You send your dog for the bird. While your dog runs out, you can view the whole thing on the screen using the camera on your drone. The drone can be filming the progress of the dog. You now have the ability to know what they are doing. When to nic, when to whistle stop and handle, or whatever. This would require a second person to run the drone especially if it's a bit windy to keep it on track.
> 
> At the other end of my commercial building I rent space is a film company that films for national geographic shows. They have a new drone for filming they showed us out in the parking lot. Works wonderfully for $4,000. Camera and screen would be extra. Super quiet machine, just a gentle buzz. If I was a pro training 20 dogs at a crack, it would be something to consider. Electronics are pretty inexpensive these days, maybe something like this might be doable in the not so distance future. Then you would know, is my dog keying on the white coat or the bird.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Can you get her on some live birds? How does she feel about live/crippled birds, both on land and in the water?



Vhuynh2 said:


> Today was one of those days. Molly wasn't made for this game. I'll never be able to teach her to become a great handling dog. That, and I'm probably doing something wrong, but she is not the dog to be learning with. She won't forgive my mistakes. I hope we can get through senior. If not, that's okay too. Then she can be my trail dog/hiking companion, the reason I got a puppy in the first place.


----------



## Vhuynh2

hotel4dogs said:


> Can you get her on some live birds? How does she feel about live/crippled birds, both on land and in the water?



She absolutely loved live ducks until she got one that was too aggressive. Chases but hesitant to try to pick up. She still loves chukars. My trainer said the next time I see him, we'll use live pigeons at the blinds. I think I will take a break from training until then.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Of course this is JMO, but I think that live birds are the best thing for her. Have your trainer tape the duck's mouth shut if you have to. Let her chase and have fun with them. Take the pressure off of her, just let her play with the birds. There is no confidence builder in the world like letting them seek out and retrieve a live bird on their own, with no interference from you.
When we felt we were putting too much pressure on Tito, we would shackle a duck (they don't take off as much as pheasants), drag it through some cover, and turn Tito loose to go hunt it down. 
Edit to add...I totally agree about taking a break from training until then. 




Vhuynh2 said:


> She absolutely loved live ducks until she got one that was too aggressive. Chases but hesitant to try to pick up. She still loves chukars. My trainer said the next time I see him, we'll use live pigeons at the blinds. I think I will take a break from training until then.


----------



## Vhuynh2

boomers_dawn said:


> I think you encouraged me in the past too
> 
> I think I may understand the Molly part a bit.
> Like for awhile Gladys stopped doing something. She was getting stopped, No'd, and corrected so much, she started to do nothing. Like I would give her a cast and she would stare at me and do nothing. For some reason I recognized it not as disobedience but more as confusion and not knowing what to do so doing nothing. Is it like that?
> 
> I stopped doing activities that would require me to stop and correct and nit pik her so much, and went back to stuff she knew and building up activities, like lining drills and easy stuff - plain over and back. Once I got her confidence built back up, she started going again and she stopped the no goes and blank stares.
> 
> I think we've had observations on this forum about reading your dog and knowing when to push them vs. pull back. I think this goes for all dog training, like obedience too, if something is too hard that they can't do it without continuous correction then it's too hard and needs to be simplified, broken down, and steps re-traced.
> 
> Plus if you simplify, that will help your need to fix stuff because she should be able to do the steps then you won't need to go back and fix it.
> 
> This part: I can't correct her, verbally or with the collar, so I feel that I can't teach her.
> 
> Don't forget, the teaching should be in place FIRST.
> Then the collar and corrections - for disobedience - not for not knowing.
> 
> 
> I give Gladys the benefit of the doubt for not knowing or being confused before using the collar or yelling. I try to use the whistle instead of yell, as dog skool teecher says, it's an objective way of saying "stop", although as we have discussed on this forum recently, it does give the dog the message "no" "stop" and "that's wrong" so again ... reading and adjusting.
> 
> See, I think it IS rocket science. And don't even ask me about Area of the Fall, because I am not getting out my protractor and doing math or geometry today!



Yes, she just gives up. Or tries to escape by hunting for the bumper. 

When I use the collar or say no, it is for something she knows. For example, if there is suction and she keeps taking the wrong cast, I can't say no. Best thing to do would be to show her by throwing a bumper. 

I think you are right that I should go back to the easy stuff. I might be doing too much too soon.


----------



## hotel4dogs

we just went ALL the way back to swim-by with Tito. That's backing up about 2 years. Nothing wrong with doing that, in the long run it builds a better dog.


----------



## Claudia M

gdgli said:


> BTW,* my definition of AOF is (now maybe was) the area around the bird described by a circle whose radius is 1/10 the distance from the line to the bird.*
> 
> My definition of AOF allows for changes in the dog's perception due to distance. Now looking at the description Dawn gave and use my definition of AOF, pink clearly was out of the AOF i.e. according to my definition. Also, the description of AOF according to Carol Cassity would allow the dog 40 yds. behind the gunner on a 60 yd. mark. Hmmm.....
> 
> As for a possible argument that 50-60 yd. marks are not used in field trials and Carol Cassity's definition would be appropriate, you may be right. Judges who don't use long marks I believe are not desirable as judges.
> 
> OK, lets look at birds used in a FT. Usually ducks but they don't have to be. Pheasants can be used. A cock pheasant flyer thrown out of a winger will probably be further out than a duck before the guns get on the bird and finally drop it. Now you have a bigger distance from gun to bird.
> 
> Now for field trial conditions---I attended a training session at SBGRC and one handler for whom I have the highest respect (Dawn, you know who it is) said that you could identify which dogs were marking off the white jackets rather then the fall of the bird. He said that the dogs that were trained with white jacket guns ONLY may do what pink did because they were primarily marking off the white jacket rather than the bird.
> 
> My final comment---I didn't really want to over analyze this but I didn't think that I was the only one who had this definition for AOF and this perspective. However I really am considering changing my definition. If I thought it appeared that outlandish I would have never made my post. And I would like to hear from others what their definition of AOF is.


That is exactly what I have been told and read as well concerning the AOF. 20% diameter (10% - radius) of the distance from the line to the bird. So if your distance from the line to the bird is 60 yards then your AOF is the circle with a diameter of 12 yards, radius of 6 yards.


----------



## AmbikaGR

We can discuss the AOF all we want, but there is only one (maybe two) definitions that matter - that of the judge(s) we are running under on that day.


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## hotel4dogs

ah, true dat!



AmbikaGR said:


> We can discuss the AOF all we want, but there is only one (maybe two) definitions that matter - that of the judge(s) we are running under on that day.


----------



## Claudia M

AmbikaGR said:


> We can discuss the AOF all we want, but there is only one (maybe two) definitions that matter - that of the judge(s) we are running under on that day.


True - but I am not fortunate to train with many judges to know each interpretations of the AOF. 

If I train my dog based on the 10% radius then I know I will be OK with the a judge that accepts a 33% radius like in the example above (60 yards from the line to bird and 40 yards from the gunner to bird). 

If my dog is used to go all over the place and hunt all over the area then I would definitely be in peril with a judge that goes by the traditional AOF definition. 

And most definitely I do not want that in a hunting situation. With my dogs, DH shoots and I handle. I do not want, especially with a young dog to shoot near my dog and impair their hearing. 
Hunting and hearing: MSU studies gun-noise effect on dogs (Mississippi State University)

That may change down the road - when I actually find ear plugs for dogs. So far I have only found the mutt muffs - not ideal for running in the field with.


----------



## hollyk

FTGoldens said:


> 1. Indeed, dogs learn to mark off of the gunners; however, that gets a bit dicier when the gunners are retired. Some dogs do, however, learn that they need to remember where the retired gunners were standing. In fact, there are ways to train the dogs to begin remembering where the gunners were standing ... after all, on some really tough marks, getting the dog in the gunner's area will get a great score, particularly in the higher levels (not so much in the Derby).
> 
> FTGoldens


My original post comes from a fragment of memory from the Rorum seminar, but for the life of me I can't remember the context. I think it was about that key tough memory mark, in the last series of coarse. It was something about lining up on the gunner or at the most halfway between the gunner and the mark. I remember him saying if you can get them to the gunner a good dog will figure it out. We were talking about big Open distances here. The big take away from this part of the seminar for me was I needed to take a lot more time lining her up to the marks before I send her. To just let her sit there and let that picture develop in her head. Also to get better reading her so I can see when she really has the picture and locks in as opposed to just looking out in the direction I'm pointing her.


----------



## hollyk

hotel4dogs said:


> I have no experience with field trials, but Dan trains HRC style, so his dogs (including Tito) don't mark off the gunner. Typically the winger is very well hidden, and there is no noise out in the field to cue the dog in to the mark except for the "whoosh" the winger itself makes when it launches, usually hard to hear from 100 yards out.
> We do sometimes use visible gun stations, especially when working on head swinging doh, but for the most part when the dogs get past Started level the gun stations aren't easy to see. I do believe it ultimately makes for better marking dogs, but would be open to hearing opposite opinions on that.
> Holly, how does the pro you consult with do it?


Once the dogs are running the mid level, pretty much all singles are run without noise. You may or may not get noise on multiples it depends on the set up, the dog's level, if you are entered in a test on the weekend. The winger or gunner is hidden at the very least behind a holding blind. Winter does not mark off the gunner but I have seen her run at the gunner, do the math on the fly and come up with it. The bubble over her head would say "if it came from there and it was going left to right it should be somewhere around here". I would guess we have all seen this. 
My Pro (and most of his clients) runs both HRC and AKC HT's. He is down at the NMH this week and one of his dogs is a 4 year old Golden girl. Come on Siren, eat it up!


----------



## TrailDogs

hotel4dogs said:


> Typically the winger is very well hidden, and there is no noise out in the field to cue the dog in to the mark except for the "whoosh" the winger itself makes when it launches, usually hard to hear from 100 yards out.
> We do sometimes use visible gun stations, especially when working on head swinging doh, but for the most part when the dogs get past Started level the gun stations aren't easy to see. I do believe it ultimately makes for better marking dogs, but would be open to hearing opposite opinions on that.


 This is interesting to me. I almost always use white and very visible gun stations. I want the dog to understand the relationship between the marks. For example, if the dog swims 60 to 70 yards and then has to drive back another 130 yards on land, I want her to see the short gun station that is sitting on the bank when she comes up out of the water and recognize that she has to push way past it to get out to the long bird.
I want her to be able to pick up long marks and then dig out the short retired throw with the long guns visible. 
I mostly run HT's and NAHRA and I have found no problems training this way. Some of the people I have trained with do not understand this and think it is to help the dog find the bird when in reality it is to teach the dog to focus on the mark they are sent for, how to run tight behind guns, etc. It gives the dog a better understanding of how the marks influence each other.


----------



## gdgli

TrailDogs said:


> This is interesting to me. I almost always use white and very visible gun stations. I want the dog to understand the relationship between the marks. For example, if the dog swims 60 to 70 yards and then has to drive back another 130 yards on land, I want her to see the short gun station that is sitting on the bank when she comes up out of the water and recognize that she has to push way past it to get out to the long bird.
> I want her to be able to pick up long marks and then dig out the short retired throw with the long guns visible.
> I mostly run HT's and NAHRA and I have found no problems training this way. Some of the people I have trained with do not understand this and think it is to help the dog find the bird when in reality it is to teach the dog to focus on the mark they are sent for, how to run tight behind guns, etc. It gives the dog a better understanding of how the marks influence each other.


I have trained both ways. I have a feeling that it is not one size fits all. One way may be better for some dogs. Or in some instances a choice for your particular situation.


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## TrailDogs

gdgli said:


> I have trained both ways. I have a feeling that it is not one size fits all. One way may be better for some dogs. Or in some instances a choice for your particular situation.


I agree, the most important thing is to be adaptable to the dogs training needs. And to give the dog as much information as you can on how to be successful on the marks, whether it be cues from you on the line or working on different concepts. 
Consistency in teaching and keeping an eye on the dogs level of success is more critical than the methods used to get there.


----------



## hollyk

TrailDogs said:


> I agree, the most important thing is to be adaptable to the dogs training needs. And to give the dog as much information as you can on how to be successful on the marks, whether it be cues from you on the line or working on different concepts.
> Consistency in teaching and keeping an eye on the dogs level of success is more critical than the methods used to get there.


Where's the "love" button?


----------



## K9-Design

TrailDogs said:


> This is interesting to me. I almost always use white and very visible gun stations. I want the dog to understand the relationship between the marks. For example, if the dog swims 60 to 70 yards and then has to drive back another 130 yards on land, I want her to see the short gun station that is sitting on the bank when she comes up out of the water and recognize that she has to push way past it to get out to the long bird.
> I want her to be able to pick up long marks and then dig out the short retired throw with the long guns visible.
> I mostly run HT's and NAHRA and I have found no problems training this way. Some of the people I have trained with do not understand this and think it is to help the dog find the bird when in reality it is to teach the dog to focus on the mark they are sent for, how to run tight behind guns, etc. It gives the dog a better understanding of how the marks influence each other.


This.

I typically train with holding blinds rather than white coats but they are absolutely visible to the dog. I am very particular about the dog turning and focusing on the gun before I call for the mark (as in, a multiple marking situation). Without visible guns that is a difficult task indeed. 

My training partner and I have a constant discussion of what you line your dog up to when sending for a memory bird. I line up to the gun. She wants to line up to the fall. She has one dog who will line up to the fall, another that she gets in big battles with trying to do that because the dog wants to look at the gun. My dogs have naturally wanted to look at the gun (this is assuming it's not a weird in-your-face or wipeout bird) and mark just fine doing it that way.


----------



## FTGoldens

TrailDogs said:


> I agree, the most important thing is to be adaptable to the dogs training needs. And to give the dog as much information as you can on how to be successful on the marks, whether it be cues from you on the line or working on different concepts.
> Consistency in teaching and keeping an eye on the dogs level of success is more critical than the methods used to get there.


Yep! 
FTGoldens


----------



## hotel4dogs

not too many gun stations out in the field when that pheasant goes down and he has to know where it went. Yet another difference between hunting and hunt tests!


----------



## hollyk

Vhuynh2 said:


> Today was one of those days. Molly wasn't made for this game. I'll never be able to teach her to become a great handling dog. That, and I'm probably doing something wrong, but she is not the dog to be learning with. She won't forgive my mistakes. I hope we can get through senior. If not, that's okay too. Then she can be my trail dog/hiking companion, the reason I got a puppy in the first place.


Vivian, I had your dog three years ago. 
We were though FTP, pattern blinds, had memory blinds going and were running cold blinds. I was starting to add in water blind work and then in about a weeks time it all fell apart. No goes, would go but spun right back to me, wouldn’t look out. If I remember correctly if I could get her kicked off it was OK. Luckily, the day of the big meltdown, I was training with my Pro because man the walls came tumbling down. It started with no goes and escalated from there, my compliant girl, who had been moving through concepts, tried every avoidance behavior she could think of that day. The session quickly turned into a 10 yard FTP marked with a white bucket marking the pile and still she was throwing avoidance. It was then I knew she was not confused or unsure but there was a big old hole in my FTP. It was worked though that day and I was sent home with the plan to restart at a 10 yard FTP and work though all the steps again. With FTP firmly in place, in about a 3-4 weeks we were right back on track. Winter is a sensitive compliant dog and I mostly use attrition, but I have realized that to get to where I want to go I still have to made sure I have all the training and understanding in place. 
So think about going back to see if there is a hole keeping you from moving forward.


----------



## Vhuynh2

I don't know.. She doesn't have a problem with going but when things get tough, she melts. Although I agree there is a hole somewhere. 

My trainer has said that I need to spell out everything for her and that I have to show her. He is 100% right and when things go south it is because I should have stopped and simplified or probably should not have attempted in the first place. Others can "work it out" when their dog is having difficulty, but not Molly. She needs to be shown what to do. It is so much easier when coach is behind me telling me what to do. I shouldn't be allowed to train without him, but I only see him 2x a month. Molly even has about 10x more desire when we are training with him and on his property and she does so well. She tries harder and has a much better attitude. While at our regular training grounds I have watched her attitude go down and she looks stressed. I swear she responds to all these little nuances and details (down to the people we train with) that I sometimes feel that I'm making it all up in my head but I'm really not! She has the best attitude when we train with our trainer or alone, or with new people, and the poorest attitude at our regular training groups. 

Sometimes I feel a lot of pressure from other people I train with because they will tell me that I'm making things too easy for Molly. I need to shut out those voices. 

WOW, after reading what I wrote I feel I have messed up BIG time. Poor Molly. I need to do more marks, less handling.


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## TrailDogs

hotel4dogs said:


> not too many gun stations out in the field when that pheasant goes down and he has to know where it went. Yet another difference between hunting and hunt tests!


Very true. Hunting pheasant has actually helped my dog a lot in the HT's because she learned quickly how to differentiate old scent from fresh scent, how to handle lively birds - the roosters all come back with their feet facing out , how to stay in a tight area to hunt and how to trail runners. A dog that can find runners in 8ft tall switchgrass or sorghum will probably have no trouble with hunt test marks. 
All valuable skills in the games we play.


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## gdgli

TrailDogs said:


> Very true. Hunting pheasant has actually helped my dog a lot in the HT's because she learned quickly how to differentiate old scent from fresh scent, how to handle lively birds - the roosters all come back with their feet facing out , how to stay in a tight area to hunt and how to trail runners. A dog that can find runners in 8ft tall switchgrass or sorghum will probably have no trouble with hunt test marks.
> All valuable skills in the games we play.


I love it! The dogs turn the crippled rooster over so as not to get clawed!


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## Claudia M

Vhuynh2 said:


> I don't know.. She doesn't have a problem with going but when things get tough, she melts. Although I agree there is a hole somewhere.
> 
> My trainer has said that I need to spell out everything for her and that I have to show her. He is 100% right and when things go south it is because I should have stopped and simplified or probably should not have attempted in the first place. Others can "work it out" when their dog is having difficulty, but not Molly. She needs to be shown what to do. It is so much easier when coach is behind me telling me what to do. I shouldn't be allowed to train without him, but I only see him 2x a month. Molly even has about 10x more desire when we are training with him and on his property and she does so well. She tries harder and has a much better attitude. While at our regular training grounds I have watched her attitude go down and she looks stressed. I swear she responds to all these little nuances and details (down to the people we train with) that I sometimes feel that I'm making it all up in my head but I'm really not! She has the best attitude when we train with our trainer or alone, or with new people, and the poorest attitude at our regular training groups.
> 
> Sometimes I feel a lot of pressure from other people I train with because they will tell me that I'm making things too easy for Molly. I need to shut out those voices.
> 
> WOW, after reading what I wrote I feel I have messed up BIG time. Poor Molly. I need to do more marks, less handling.


I have spent many days thinking of why Rose would never do ANYTHING at this one place. I started by eliminating things and adding things in other places to figure it out. 
I do not know if we are out of the woodshed with her performance on Sunday at the "cursed" place to which we go to once a month. She finally went, she did good on both land and water, still not the same as at the other places we go to. The only thing that got her going and forgetful about whatever she thinks it is there was 1 flier. Even with 46 dogs there in total.

They sense what goes around them, they sense something in the people and other dogs there and they sense our different levels of stress. I used to think, well I was stressed during the D-JH and she still performed, why would she not perform here since I am less stressed. But she sensed from me a different kind of stress.


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## K9-Design

Trained @ Betsy's pond yesterday afternoon. Started out with very short, simple shoreline blinds marked with white stakes. We did 3 of them, multiple times each. I was really, really happy we did that and Slater improved his entry with each one. He has NO trouble swimming down the shore or taking a cast anywhere near the shore but last time I tried to do something similar he kept going super fat in the water. These were a perfect tune-up.

Set up a triple : two long memory birds and a short wipe-out bird thrown by the Bumper Boy, so very exciting  1-2-3 picked them up in the order 3 -1-2

Then we walked around the pond and did a blind. I wanted something with a very black and white square entry and no terrain to navigate at the beginning since we had done so much of the down the shore entry stuff earlier. This was instead a lot of swimming but past two points and over a finger. Slater did SUPER -- dipped his shoulder once as he got near the first point, I stopped and cast right back, he tried to scallop back, and I stopped him again with a "NO" (no nick), repeated my cast, and he took a perfect line all the way to the blind -- yippeeee Squeedoo!


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## Alaska7133

Anney, nice set up! Your ponds are amazing. Do people just go out and doze out some ponds? Wish we could do that here.

I've decided this week to go back to FTP work. We skipped out most of the summer and just worked on retrieves. Last June when we left off I was a bit frustrated and thought we needed a break. So this week we got back to business. I started using the local helipads. We have 5 of them in a nice mowed field. Since I haven't seen a helicopter ever at this helipad, why not? So it was really nice to spread out. No loose dogs. We worked FTP, walkout blinds, and retrieves Dennis Voight style. I tried to make it as fun as possible with enough fun bumpers in between.

Today we went duck hunting at Portage. Saw 2 teals and 4 geese that were all too far away. Lucy was all business everytime I blew the duck call. Then she would sit and wait. By the time we went home, I think she was rather disgusted with DH and I for not providing her with some ducks. We did see some very nice decoys we had never seen before. The had spinning wings. They must have been battery powered, they spun for maybe 1/2 hour. Lots of hunters out and about today. I'm glad Lucy had her Hunter orange vest on. 38 degrees and pouring rain, thankfully someone invented wool.


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## K9-Design

Yes we have access to some very technical water, obviously man made just for retriever training  This one is about an hour from my house. The lady who owns it has had 5-6 MHs including Slater's great uncle "Newt" (OTCH Morninglo Speaker of the House MH).


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## hollyk

Yesterday we did a lining drill and a water double with a blind that was under the arc. The blind was in a tight channel. She wanted to fade to the old fall on the blind took a couple of casts away but did fine staying in the middle of the channel. I was going to set up other water blind but the skies opened up and the forecast was for a lot of rain.


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## gdgli

Holly, what are the distances in your photo?


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## hollyk

Not big, Mark 1-60 yards, Mark 2-40 yards and the blind 85-90 yards.


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## Claudia M

someone on this forum told me that I should not let my dogs play at the training grounds. Well, I did that and paid for it, almost. The sig pic is Rose having fun, before her "bad" run with her boyfriend, Darcy's brother. 

It was still fun other than the fact that Rose decided to check on my daughter who was moving to take better pictures behind the tree as Rose went on her long mark passing the go to mark and the thrower. My daughter threw her go to mark (73 yards) on a double and used the remote control bumper on the long mark (141 yards). Had to call Rose back and re-send her. She knew exactly were her mark was, had no trouble. Had to change my attitude from play and joke and have fun to actual work. 
We did some nice water marks afterwards, in the rain and mud. The pond is down from not enough rain and she had to run thru quite a lot of mud. I was impressed on how quickly she got thru the mud and into the swimming water.


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## Vhuynh2

Claudia M said:


> someone on this forum told me that I should not let my dogs play at the training grounds.


I didn't get the memo. 

Note: I know my dog well enough to know that this would not interfere with "work" and I do not let her play with real birds!


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## Jige

We always let or dogs have fun bumpers before and after training on the same grounds. It doesn't affect our dogs at all.


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## K9-Design

Our guys always get playtime/free running after we train -- it's the family tradition  No problems.


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## Vhuynh2

I have heard to not let the dogs play before training. Depending on who I'm with I have let Molly run and play with the other dogs before AND after training. I think it might even put her in a better mood for her run.


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## gdgli

I never let Buffy play at any training grounds. When we go to train we are going to work. I don't let her play with other dogs. I don't want the field to be associated with any cues to play. From the time I go to the crate to leash her up, all of my cues are exactly the same. They indicate work.

Example: When I open the crate door she must stay in the crate no matter what. She jumps out without me saying heel she goes back in the crate.

Example: After I leash her up and I say heel, she must jump out of the crate and come to heel. She must sit. Failure to sit means she goes back into the crate. Then we start a chain of behaviors that brings us to the holding blind and work.


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## TrailDogs

Mine always get to run and play before and after training. It gives them a chance to blow off steam and stretch their legs after a long drive to training grounds. Often we take all the dogs for a group walk, run after we are done. They all enjoy that. 
They do know the difference between work time and play time so no issues with that.


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## Claudia M

I have always let the girls play with the other dogs when we were done training. Even when other dogs are not around I throw fun bumpers for my two girls. 
It was different with playing before her run. I was rough playing with my daughter, Rose was playing with Darcy's brother. 
She got the go to bumper, then she made a quick stop on her route to her long mark. I was actually impressed that she remembered a long mark after she was called back and with her mind still on her boyfriend who was in a down in front of the holding blind, in cover and lots of deer poop and deer beds on her way to the long mark. 
Haha, as she was back in a heel and looked towards the mark. I said bird instead of good. Then I sent her with her name.


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## gdgli

I guess that I am mean to Buffy.:--ashamed:


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## Claudia M

gdgli said:


> I guess that I am mean to Buffy.:--ashamed:


hahaha - no you are not! It was neat to see Rose re-focus with a "bird" except I was lying to her too. It was a dumb plastic bumper, no bird out there. 

She drove me crazy this morning with the birds flying south. She was so frustrated they were all the way up in the air and none was falling down. She ran to me like ".... go get your gun mom they are flying AWAY!!! What are you doing? Let's go get them!"


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## Alaska7133

George,
your dog gets to hunt, which most dogs don't get that opportunity. So Buffy comes out way ahead!


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## MillionsofPeaches

George I don't let my girls play first but always let them play after as long as I get good effort! I've made it kind of like a reward for hard work!


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## K9-Design

I did fly-by training with Kristin and another gal tonight as they had stuff set up, I blew in and ran my dogs, and got out of there to head to agility class.
They had set up a triple with bird #1 a flyer (hooded duck) way to the right, then an inline two marks to the left, #2 way deep and #1 in line short of it. All of Slater's birds went down, before I sent him we realize the freakin flyer is UP and FLYING straight across our setup. We all watched it as it flew and ended up crash landing to the left of the inline marks. I sent Slater (he had been perfectly steady and tracked the thing the whole way) -- he barreled out there and tackled it. Brought him back, sent for the first inline bird -- he blew through the short one and hunted the deep on and found it after an extended hunt, then had to get a check-down whistle to pick up the short bird. When I lined him up for the blind (deep of and to the left of where the flyer SHOULD have been) he was wagging his tail and chattering. OMG --- that flyer blew his mind LOL He handled the blind really nice but I realized he was thinking of where the flyer should have been --- hmmm I guess Slater is game for a quad with a wipeout bird!!!


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## Vhuynh2

Molly is a happy dog, so I am a happy girl.  She had live ducks and pigeons today. She whined waiting for her duck to be thrown and she LOVED the pigeons at the blind. We also threw pigeons for marks. My trainer's grounds has a bunch of obstacles like clumps of plants and bushes (I don't know my plant names), unlike at our usual training grounds where it is just grass. She was jumping over and running through the plants instead of zig zagging past them like she usually does. She was saying, "no time to think! Just go!" She brought them back alive but she almost chomped one of their heads off when she jumped up and tried to grab it out of my hand. We ended on a very high note.

Our next plan is to meet with my trainer with live pigeons and ducks at our usual training grounds (as opposed to his grounds). Hopefully that will work to perk her up over there.

I have quit group training sessions for awhile. This is something I should have done awhile ago. I have to thank Shelby for reaching out to me and encouraging me to do what Molly and I need. We are taking a giant step back -- doing drills and easy marks. I know we won't progress as quickly, but my goal now is to cultivate the desire I see when she runs when it is just the two of us. I will still have private sessions with my trainer -- those are always nothing but beneficial.


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## hotel4dogs

We had a good training session at Dan's today. Tito did some very nice water work, so he was rewarded with some upland hunting. Heaven!


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## hollyk

Yesterday we turned up laying down a mark having her turn off of it and then running a blind. After that we did the 240 yard water blind that we ran last week, less whistles this time. I learned that I really needed to walk those casts out for her when the distances get long, not just a step or two.


----------



## Sir Copper

Copper finally got off of house arrest this week (spent 3 days at the emergency vet) and got to start running. Yesterday we worked did yard work then went to the lake and did water blinds. Today yard work then land blinds. He has been doing very well and really impressed me. It's like he is a completely different dog.


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## Claudia M

Had a good day today, just us. Worked on a surfacing issue with Darcy, she has decided to cheat on long marks and come out of the water instead of swimming back. Wonder if it has to do with the water getting colder than what she is used to. I never thought dog training would be good exercise, walked and ran around the ponds today several times.

Couple of my fav pics today


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## Alaska7133

Claudia, Great photos! Love the color contrast.

Meanwhile in Alaska, cow moose are starting to look for bull moose and vice versa. So below is a photo I took yesterday at the shooting range. Miss Cow Moose was wandering through with her calf. The shooting range is a super safe place to live I think. 

I've been working hard on shooting better. Don't want my dogs looking at me with stink because I've missed again. So far I'm increasing in accuracy with my shotgun. I'm thankful we have a nice 5 stand shooting clay range here.

No snow down here at this altitude yet and not too cold yet. DH hooked up some nice LED outdoor lights in our yard so I can work with the dogs after dark.


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## boomers_dawn

Hunting season opened yesterday. Gladys is still in season. I'm dog sitting a senior citizen so I took her hunting for an hour but we saw nothing, not even one feather. I don't think they had stocked at the place we went to b/c no one else there saw anything either and there were no shots at all. 
After that, I went home and swapped for Dee Dee to try someplace different but she was too scared of the cowbell to function then it started pouring so I said forget it. I ordered her some smaller more appropriate gear, will try again when it gets here. 
Gladys should be good to go next week. 
No training planned at the moment.


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## Claudia M

Today was mostly fun and less work. Still got some long marks in and some water work. Meanwhile my daughter is having fun with her very early Christmas present, a new camera.


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## Claudia M

I guess the pics are big, could not upload more than one


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## Claudia M

Alaska7133 said:


> ....
> 
> I've been working hard on shooting better. Don't want my dogs looking at me with stink because I've missed again. So far I'm increasing in accuracy with my shotgun. I'm thankful we have a nice 5 stand shooting clay range here.
> ....


Your post made me remember a picture I recently saw on FB.


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## hollyk

Alaska7133 said:


> I've been working hard on shooting better. Don't want my dogs looking at me with stink because I've missed again.


Funny!
It reminds me of a friend of mind. She says her boy always tries to ditch her and go with hunters who can hit something when they upland hunt.


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## boomers_dawn

No training but we went hunting again, I took Gladys this time. 
No pheasants again, not even one feather (I don't get it the CFWS website had photos some birdwatcher took of the supposedly numerous pheasants there  ) but she did put up a woodcock. Not sure if they're in season, and wouldn't eat them, so just watch them fly away. Gladys did a great job, obedient, fun, excellent hunting partner.
Unfortunately the post-grooming lasts longer than the actual hunting trip


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## gdgli

boomers_dawn said:


> No training but we went hunting again, I took Gladys this time.
> No pheasants again, not even one feather (I don't get it the CFWS website had photos some birdwatcher took of the supposedly numerous pheasants there  ) but she did put up a woodcock. Not sure if they're in season, and wouldn't eat them, so just watch them fly away. Gladys did a great job, obedient, fun, excellent hunting partner.
> Unfortunately the post-grooming lasts longer than the actual hunting trip


How do you usually do where you hunted?


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## boomers_dawn

gdgli said:


> How do you usually do where you hunted?


I don't normally go there. The state posts the # of birds placed at each area for the year and it's one of the lowest stocked .. plus there's 2 sides.

But it was the closest place I could get to an hour before dark after work  The places we do best are too far to get to before dark after work.

I'ma take our Senior Citizen houseguest out for an hour later today, and see if any of our group wants to go training tomorrow.
No Sunday hunting in CT so I thought it might be good to take Dee Dee to one of the stocked areas and let her smell around and get used to the vest and bell and use it as a training exercise regardless if anyone else wants to do any actual training.


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## ashleylp

Well, we ran in our second hunt test today and we got our third junior ribbon! Unfortunately the next test in our area isn't until December...


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## hotel4dogs

Way to go!! Remy looks so good in orange.


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## ashleylp

Thank you! This test was hard and made me so glad that I listened to one of the pros and trained in tall grass. The first mark was a live flyer in some 3 foot high grass and weeds. It was really thick and a lot of the dogs lost it. There was a ditch running behind the area where the bird fell and if the dogs ended up in the ditch they very rarely recovered. The grass was high enough that we couldn't see the dogs. The second mark was a typical dead duck and was long. The grass was very short until about 20-ft away from the bird and many dogs never entered the taller grass and got eliminated. After the land portion we went from 40 dogs to 26.

The water marks were easy, really. One was pretty far but there was really no option to cheat and I felt confident on those.

One thing I'm actually struggling with is Remy's love for the water. He doesn't cheat, even when we practice entering from a good distance. However, when he gets the bird, he swims close to me and then will sometimes want to swim around with the bird before bringing it to me. I don't want to mess up his love for the water because I know I have a great gift of not wanting to cheat... but still, what would y'all recommend for me to do to encourage him to get to me quickly?


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## gdgli

ashleyp

This is a recall issue and a dog likes the bird issue and some of us on this forum have dealt with the same.

What did I do? I worked on recall on land, then went to recall on land through a small section of water (5 yds. wide) to return to me on land. I also did not take the bird from the dog right away but heeled the dog to the truck with the bird. 
I believe that you can deal with this but it requires patience.


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## boomers_dawn

ashleyp - when we had the problem you describe we used the long line - because we didn't want to let it become a habit - then during one of our summer training sessions our dog skool teecher advised us to show up for training prepared to go in the water after them if they don't come when called. It only took one episode of me going in up to my shorts to fix the problem.

We went training yesterday it was short and sweet, just 2 people, I liked it.
He wanted to do blinds so we set up 2 - one looked fairly hard - down a hill through a patch of high cover with a road to the left and garden to the right - he thought his dog would want to take the road but he REALLY had a hard time keeping him out of the vegetables!! LOL it was funny (if it's not your dog). What a nightmare. I thought it might be too hard for Gladys but said I would just move up as needed. She did great initially but once into the cover, it was too high for the dogs to see us. Dang we hadn't thought of that when we set it up. So I stopped her in the patch, but she couldn't see me. She sat on all my whistles and took my casts to a point, but after too many stops and casts she starts to break down and want to come in, at least where she could see me. So I moved up and moved into the cover with her and got her there together. 

The second blind looked fairly straightforward, crest of hill, he thought the dogs would fall off the hill. Mine wanted to run up the hill. It was the same deal .. too far out, too windy, can't hear, she was facing into the sun (duuhhh another one we didn't notice till we ran it LOL), so I moved up and helped her. I thought it was ok for something over her head that was probably not the best thought out and since we hadn't done anything in weeks.

The surprise of the day was Dee Dee. We did a marking drill, I forget the name of it, stand in one spot and throw left in, left back, right back, right in - I didn't care the order - Dee Dee did so good I think I'll just stop training her and show up at tests.

After that we threw a mark in the cover for Gladys. Creeping and whining but good marking and barge in the cover. We won't be able to train this week and next weekend is the judging seminar so for all intents and purposes this season is pretty much over for us except any weekend sessions we end up having.


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## Claudia M

Congrats Ashley and Remy!

Hahaha Ashley - I wish we could have tests here in December.


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## Claudia M

We have not trained much lately. I made a point of going to the training grounds and a couple other ponds but I was just not into it much. I mostly want the dogs to get used to the water changing temperatures. Did some fun bumpers combined with some training combined with play time. 

Darcy has started cheating on the long water marks, goes to the closest shore and runs. So I have been putting her back in the exit point, walk all the way back to the line and calling her to come thru the water. After a couple of those she finally got the message. I also threw her some fun bumpers and then moved myself from the "line" to get her used to come to me wherever I am. We would just walk the pond shore and throw and I just kept on walking or changing direction thus making her swim to me. 
I honestly was not sure if that will work, we were alone training; but it seemed to work. This past Saturday Darcy thought of cheating but corrected herself while I kept on whistling for her until I could not breathe anymore. 
We also worked on long marks with Darcy (over 100 yards) with cover. She does not have much experience with those. 
Well, I thought Rose did but the deer poop and the groundhog holes seemed a bit more interesting on her way there. When she saw me go towards her she sort of realized she was in trouble and went and got her bumper. We are working doubles with one long in tall grass and one in the bean or corn field. And started short blinds. :doh: I wasn't really planning to move it from the back yard to the field but my daughter was not paying attention so she threw a bumper into the bean field as Rose was going in the opposite direction, so I figured might as well see if she can do a 40-50 yd blind. Took one sit and over and she got it.


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## gdgli

I was glad to see my mentor back in the field. He has had surgery and he is not a youngster so he needs to take it easy.

Buffy has been resting a bit but we got out a bit today. Today we did some drills, blind work. We then finished with a double with a blind---pick up one mark, run the blind in between, then pick up the second mark. We have not done this before so that this was a teaching setup. Glad she did OK.


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## hotel4dogs

Once in a great while you have one of those crisp, sunny October days and head off for training....and EVERYTHING goes right. Dog and handler are both 100% perfect on everything attempted!


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## Sir Copper

Worked on some obedience and short blinds today. The two things he seems to be having a tough time with these. He is becoming a little fire breather and wants to go for the marks before I send him. He is so amped up all the time. It has gotten a little bit better, also did some 300 yard marks and he pinned them. Very proud of that. Just wish there were some junior hunt test going on around here but looks like I'm going g to have to wait until spring.


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