# Want To vs. Have To



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

There is an element of "have to" in everything I train. Yes, I want my dogs to "want to" work, but I find that by eliminating choices and them knowing they have to, that actually increases them wanting to. I play a lot with my dogs and make working with me lots of fun and they really "want" to go work with me, but at some point on every exercise my dog has chosen not to and I have shown them that is not an option.

For me, the way I train, and the level of training I want to achieve with my dogs, the want to does not eliminate the have to. Flip WANTS to do a lot of things, a whole heck of a lot more than my Lhasa ever did, but I still have to teach him that you HAVE to do them my way.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

BTW, when I say I put the have to in every exercise, I don't mean it has to be an unpleasant experience. Many of my corrections are just slipping my hand in the collar and guiding them to do what I want them to do if they don't do it on their own. Or a fun bounce. Broken stays, not so much fun. But the bottom line is, I don't let them get away with ignoring a command. It doesn't matter if they don't fully understand the command, or they are feeling too stressed to do it on their own, or they are distracted, or whatever. If I give a command then the dog is going to do it, and if that means me walking in and doing it for them then I will.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

This might not be as clear an answer to be helpful, but...

Everything I do with my dog has a reward attached. 

Some of that reward is praise, some play, some treats, some is following through with releasing my dog. 

That "release" _is_ a reward because it's essentially me taking all pressure away and letting my dog be as silly as he wants (within some level of control) before I reel him in to work again. 

The reason why I started training very early with Jacks is to really establish that "training is playing" mentality in his head. I didn't do that with my Danny, and it caused some difficulties in motivating him later on. 

So I firmly believe that if you want that "easy route", it's best to start building a correct foundation as soon as your puppy comes home. I know I will be better at that with my next dog, but as it is - it really makes training a pleasure and a breeze with Jacks. 

That's where the making your dog "want to" comes from.

"Have to"... when I ask my dog to do something, it's either:

1. I'm teaching/training him and making it very easy for him to perform that action and win rewards. Over time as he is more consistent and spot on, it becomes -

2. I'm testing/drilling him and it's sometimes more difficult than he'd ever encounter in a trial. Rewards are still used, but are more of a jackpot. I'm asking him to do more good behaviors before he wins a BIG reward. 

Either way, I never ask my dog to do something I don't think he CAN do. And those rewards or release don't happen until after he does that action. He has to do it right, otherwise a correction happens and we repeat. 

Probably a good example was something I did with him this evening. I saw his rawhide bone was down the hallway. I pointed him in the right direction and told him to go get/bring the bone. Even though he didn't particularly want his bone, he still went and got it. 

If he hadn't, I would have taken him by the collar and a bit more firmly sent him. 

Very early on when I was sending him outside to bring his toys in or having him pick up after himself, I obviously made that retrieve a lot easier for him - breaking it down individual actions (going out to the object, picking it up, and bringing it back to wherever I wanted him to bring it before I tell him "OK).

*** I should make it clear I am very gentle and soft handling with my dog. Corrections _can _be gentle and get the point across.


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I would say that from day one, while I am training my dogs to 'want to' work with me, they are also being trained they 'have to'. Throughout their training, for competition or living manners', they are cued and they either follow the cue or are assisted in doing so. 

This does not mean harshly, but it might be a finger/hand in the collar or a repositioning or a verbal 'Hey' or whatever.

ETA: No, I do not consciously monitor the 'have to' vs the 'want to' but there is allowance for the early learning stages - there are many exercises that are not natural to the dog and I have to work at 'want to' as I work on their 'need to''.

But then a funny thing happens, they begin to want to do the very things they formerly were trained that they needed to do, to earn their reward. A very good example might be, goldens are notorious for their teeter problems in agility. And male goldens are even worse. But make this obstacle rewarding enough, break it down into its components (height, bang, width, movement, approach, end behavior) and let the dog know that while he has the right to be afraid and cautious, but he needs to take that obstacle, in very little time you have a dog who wants to bang that teeter and might even become a teeter suck 

And no, I do not feel that enough want to will negate the need for need to. For example, my dogs love heeling. They want to heel, But they need to remain parallel to to ground (well most times LOL), they need to keep their noses off the floor and out of stewards butts. These things are trained - gently and consistently, but they are trained behaviors.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

what she said X2


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> So the positive training thread on the field forum got me thinking. Do you ascribe to the notion of "want to" versus "have to" in your obedience training? Do you consciously monitor the level of "want to" vs. "have to" in your dog. Does it differ from exercise to exercise?
> Do you think "want to" is natural or trained? Do you feel enough "want to" can eliminate the need for building the "have to"?
> Are there certain techniques you use to instill more "Want to" or "have to" within each exercise?


Yes I have to focus on want to vs have to all of the time. It does differ from exercise to exercise because some are stronger in the want to category than others (i.e. retrieving vs. heeling). 

I do not consciously monitor it in the sense that I am thinking it needs to be X amount of time. However, I will set-up circumstances at a low level where I know my dog will fail so that I can establish the have to.

I think want to can be both natural and trained. I think the natural part is one reason why we find differences in breeds--goldens are high on the list of wanting to work for people. I also believe you can build it. My trainer has a nice flat coat (HIT dog) that she never intended on keeping. He was not the working pick by any means...was always the aloof observer. But, tragedy struck with her choice puppy and she kept him. She has remarked how it took a lot of work (and years of experience on her part) to bring some of this working ability in him. She has done Search&Rescue and has remarked how he is not a SAR dog though. Somethings you can't train. 

No, I don't really feel like want to can overcome have to. I mean, part of me thinks maybe for certain dogs. I know with the one I have now while she likes to generally work and is very smart she also has a mind of her own. She can love retrieving and be a super star but if you catch her on an off day she might do something totally silly and unexpected. She might decide that she wants the judge's attention or that piece of tape on the floor is really cool.

As far as putting them in the exercise yes. It needs to be appropriate for the exercise, the dog, and the dog's skill level. I think this is where a lot of proofing comes in. Prior to proofing I don't think there is a lot of have to it is largely want to work. Scout is on proofing right now. I have been told if you do it right you get a dog that works harder on each exercise. So far when we add stuff in that can be a distracting factor and teach her she must still work around it--she's come out better. Like she is more focused and trying harder.


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I think it is incredibly important to instill want to in training before you instill have to. The pro I saw this week has told a friend not to FF her dog until that dog has a stronger desire and love of retrieving bumpers. I thought that was sound advice.


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Wow – I just had a clickable event J

Yes, we build 'want to' into the retrieve, before any form of 'have to' is enforced. The want to is built through breaking the event down into very small increments and using praise and rewards for the successful completion of the step (open mouth, reach for dumbbell etc). I do not force fetch my dogs. I do however, proof my dogs on the retrieve. So I am curious if these two function (force and proof) are more similar than they might appear.

For proofing, while I do not use force, my dogs learn that they 'need to' pick up that dumbbell/bumper/bird. It can be by themselves and they will be rewarded, it can be with resistance where they still have to pick up that dumbbell/article/bird/glove and I will make sure they do it if I have to go all the way with them etc. But they will wait to be sent, pick up whatever they were sent for, they will return directly to me, without mouthing and they will sit for delivery, giving up the object by opening their mouth and moving their head back when cued to give. They will not attempt to take the object back. There really are many elements to the retrieve and by the time my dogs have learned all of them, they usually so 'want to' retrieve J

All of these elements are taught in a positive, calm way and built slowly during the initial teaching phases, and each is proofed before I start to combine the elements. And once the elements are proofed individually, I then begin to proof combined elements.


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Sunrise you've got me curious. How do you make your dogs pick up the dumbbell if you do not force them?


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

In the very early stages, you can use a piece of food behind or on top of the bar  Present the dumbbell very close to the mouth/nose and the dog will usually open the mouth to get the treat. You might have to go back to some food once the dumbbell is on the ground, but probably not if enough time was spent on the initial stages.

I think of it as - you want the dog to open his mouth. How? You can use an ear pinch, you van use a toe pull, you can use food or there are probably dozens of other ways. 

Also, the dogs I have had from earliest puppyhood never have to even have food used. They are offered all kinds of objects and told to 'Take It' as their mouths naturally open since thats what pups do best LOL Then its 'good Take it'. My Faelan went to a basic hunt class, and never even needed the kind method presented by my mentor - he just knew what was expected from his puppy hood days.

With Ms Towhee, since her original owners taught her things in her mouth were very bad, I did need to physically open her mouth else she would clamp it shut. It does depend on the dog..


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok, I understand how you are teaching it but what happens when you've been through those stages and you throw the dumbbell and the dog chooses not to pick it up? You say you will make sure they do it even if you have to go all the way. How? How to you make them do it and instill that have to?


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Grins. Okay, my dogs know that if I have to get out to them, and I put my hands on my hips and I tell them to fetch it up, if they do not fetch it up and quickly, game time is over, my hand is in their collar and another dog gets their bird/bumper. They are crated or put up in the truck; they encounter the walk of shame with total silence. 

I guess you could call it an indirect correction, but it works. 

Please know my dogs are used to praise and/or encouragement so silence with no smile on my face is a serious correction for my crew, which they will scramble to avoid. This is for field, agility, obedience or rally. And a part of their training from day 1 - they don't want to play - fine; game over. I'll play with one of the other dogs.

My friends would be able to tell you my dogs are quite good at distingushing between my Oooooh, what did you do? Silly dog and my Game's Over, too bad, so sad.


But honestly, if the ground work has been laid out and proofed, you should not have these issues. I had an issue with Faelan with a cripple - fine, he was trained and proofed with cripples, problem over. I have issues with him not being able to work through a heavily scented area when his bird is outside the AOF. I am working on it. But honestly, since the days when I left force fetch behind I have not had a dog refuse to pick up a dumbbell, bird etc unless there was an element that needed further training.


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Gotcha! Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I do think "want to" can eliminate or decrease "have to" in obedience, but I have my doubts about that in field work. I want the dog to make the correct choice, one that is rewardable( variously, not just treats etc). I'd like to eliminate as much "have to" from training as possible, by building histories of correct choice and profound attention from early babyhood. I like the Dawn Jecs idea that the dog is not wrong, but he is not rewardable. My goal is to achieve results of increasingly advanced criteria with as little "have to"as possible. Teach it, use it, proof it, expect it( without reward). Where trainers get bad wraps as cookie pushers is when they lure or they reward but do not raise the criteria. I train the dogs all day long. I just played ball with Copley, and in there gave him a down. If he doesnt go down in a way that meets my criteria( spinx down, lightening fast), too bad the game is over. If he does it, the fun game goes on. I won't let a dog practice/rehearse behaviors I do not want, and set up behaviors I do want, so that they quickly become internalized. I also will give certain feedback like a no reward marker(too bad/blech), but I won't give a physical correction in training. I do not ever repeat a command, ever.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have trained three Goldens to a CDX and one to a UD. I have never force fetched them and none of them every flunked a retrieving exercise by refusing to pick up a dumbbell. I was told by much more accomplished trainers that I wouldn't have a reliable retrieve without force. Sally, Laney, and Cookie positively proved them wrong.

I'm probably coming from a less serious training aspect that the rest of the posters because if I thought my dogs weren't having fun, I probably wouldn't do it. Right now I am working with one of my girls that I have come to realize was ruined by her conformation handler. Ironically, her mother, also shown by the same person displays the same behaviors and I gave up training her for obedience because of it. With the success I am seeing with her daughter, Tiki may actually be able to be trained the same way. I realize now that those two girls learned very well how to shut down in the conformation ring and it just transfers thru to everything I do with them.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Many people tend to associate putting "have to" in an exercise with force fetch, but I really think it is more about follow through with _any_ exercise and in a variety of ways. If I tell my dog to sit and he doesn't, my hand is going to be on that rear in an instant to make sure he does sit. He doesn't have an option. If I told you to sit it has to be done. I don't have to make him do it in an ugly manner, but yes he will sit. Something as simple as the dog giving me five, if I tell him to and he gives me a blank look, I will take the paw in my other hand and bring the paw up to me - praise, ask again, and most times the dog will do it. I ask for a spin and dog doesn't spin or doesn't complete the spin? Hand in collar, spin the dog, praise, repeat command.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

If I tell my dog to sit and he doesnt but he knows the command through and through, I am going to walk out and shut the door. The efficacy of this though, depends on him caring. If I tell my dog to sit, and he doesnt meet my criteria( a straight sit lightening fast), I might tell him too bad, and try again. I will never physically force my dog to do it, bc I think he will know it better if he works out how to choose the correct response in order to earn a reward.


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks Jill for the explanation. I always wonder how you guys do things!


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Most posters are definitely coming from a different place than I am. Today, my OTCH trainer friend was working with Emmie and me. Now Emmie knows down, it is her default behavior. So tethered to the wall, I told her down. She gave me a blank stare like I was speaking to her in Chinese. So then she gets the "no reward marker" and I walk away.....the point was to (obviously) get her to lay down without luring, my hands on her, etc. it was time consuming, but eventually she was spot on. I guarantee the next time we practice, she will be even better. It is an alternative way to train a dog to want to do something as well as reliably do something. I haven't always trained this way, but my first golden would've died if I ever corrected her...second golden was trained with a micro prong collar , third golden was trained entirely by clicker and so have the next six.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Like Sunrise said earlier, I also play my dogs off each other.... If one ignores me, I will say, too bad, and work with another dog. And I believe in observational learning. I know that Cookie picked up the broad jump and the retrieve over the high by watching Laney


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

For me, making my dogs follow through any command started when I was working dogs who would stress and freeze up. I found that if they weren't doing something because they were too worried to do it, I could guide them through it, show them it was okay to do it, and then they would have the confidence to do it on their own. Now I just automatically have follow through with everything, to show that they CAN and WILL do everything, no matter have scary (or how much fun) the rest of the world is.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Thanks guys these are really great posts. I've enjoyed reading them. Heading out to the post office (to mail Jessica's MACH bar decal  ) then to do some blinds.


----------



## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> Thanks guys these are really great posts. I've enjoyed reading them. Heading out to the post office (to mail Jessica's MACH bar decal  ) then to do some blinds.


Am totally jealous.. I want a Titan magnet!


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I had a long time to think about this driving my son to his piano lesson and then daydreaming thru the lesson. With my first golden, all training was thru a local obedience school whose head trainer never attained anything higher than a CD. He was very good at teaching Novice obedience, but he also belonged to the school of stringing up aggressive dogs. And my Sally was so soft, he knew I would never give her a collar correction. Anyway, it was time to teach the dumbbell. So another member who had GSD's showed me how to choke her. I succeeded in making her hate the dumbbell. So I ended up with her at a local doggie behaviorists for another reason. He decided she had no behavior issues, so I told him of my dilemma teaching th dumbbell. He then took out a giant container of freeze dried liver and in no time, she was grabbing the dumbbell from him. Within the hour she would retrieve over the high jump FOR HIM and only him. It took me a bit longer to regain her trust. Anyway kids got in the way of going further for a UD, but she remained a gorgeous heeler and we had fun in Veterans, even doing Veterans Open at the 1999 National.

Then it was Laney's turn to learn the dumbbell. She was trained to heel with the micro prong collar. However, somewhere in pursuit of her CD, the micro prong was lost. This time I was working with my friend who had one OTCH under her belt and was working on the second one. She had taken many lessons from top trainers who use a lot of compulsion. So, to teach Laney, she demonstrated the ear pinch. I watched and honestly didn't like the idea of it. But what sealed it for me was that later that day, I looked at her pinched ear pinna and it was raw and excoriated. Maybe she scratched it after, I don't know, but since it is my job to heal, I just couldn't continue that way. So next training session, I told my friend that we had to come up with something different as I wouldn't continue with method. Soooo there we were sitting under a tree, food in one hand, dumbbell in the other. First she got a treat for touching the dumbbell, then as she accomplished that, the goal grew higher.... Eventually she learned that holding the dumbbell is what I wanted.

And finally Cookie and the rest of her clan at my house have never had any of the above. Don't get me wrong, there are things that my dogs have to tolerate and endure (nail trimming, tooth brushing, heart worm checks where no one holds them, etc) and I don't play the do this for food game.... It is understood that it will be done, but they have been handled so much from an early age, that I don't really have to train them to accept it.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

The way I taught "hold" was opening my dog's mouth and putting something in his mouth. Praising the hold, asking for give, and rewarding. Repeat. 

If my dog spit the dumbbell out without me telling him give, I would simply say "no" and put the dumbbell back in his mouth, praising the hold, asking for give, rewarding. 

It takes a lot of patience and baby stepping....  

And my dog is obsessed with dumbbells. He wants them all. Which is why the heeling drills with our instructor doing dumbbell practice with her flatcoats on the other side of the ring fence are killer. >.<

*** And the only way I get Jacks to go running to his perch for eye drops (which he hates) and the only way I get him to let me clip his toenails (which he really hates)... is he knows I will give him a jackpot afterwards.


----------



## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

Great info from you guys. What do you do with a guy who is tough and is good at heeling with a toy under my arm but once it goes away then he heels good when he feels like it? So he doesn't "want to" and I'm sure trying to make him "have to". We do play alot with heeling and with verbal praise when he is heeling perfectly but I also give corrections when he isn't giving me total attention. We train with a pinch collar because this guy is tough as nails. He wants to do go outs and loves the jumps but heeling is well, I'm not that pleased with it.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hi guys, thanks again for the replies, this has been interesting.
I think Jodie and I are most alike in that I would never wait around for a dog to perform a command at his pace after I've told him, or leave and come back and try again, I would assist and get him to do whatever it was. And as she described, there doesn't have to be any element of force in it.

I am a big proponent of not introducing much "have to" or proofing before the dog is performing 100% confidence and skill at any exercise. To ask him to work through distractions or extreme conditions before he has confidence through the roof is a sure way to kill attitude. However if used properly it is wonderful to see a dog bounce back STRONGER after a correction, this means he understands his job!

Something new I am doing to instill "have to" in heeling is the bounce. Thanks to my friend Robin who is helping me teach Slater this new heeling stuff, this is what she's having me do. During heeling I will take food in my left hand and have Slater heel and with each step BOUNCE up toward the food (held above my waist on my left side). After 6-7 bounces in a row (each step forward is a bounce) I say "GET IT!" and he can then grab the food. Sounds easy but I first had to start with just one or two bounces before the get-it, we are up to 6 or 7 and my goal is to do a full length/around the ring heeling routine doing this. This is HARD WORK but how can the dog fail, you've got the food right in his face assisting him? If he can bounce through a whole heeling pattern, regular heeling is easy! At first Slater would do a few bounces then cheat and just look at the food. With simple "uh-uh" and assisting him on the next jump either with my hand on the collar or the leash, letting him know he has to bounce. 

Another one is to do with the dumbbell. I tried this for the first time today with Slater and it was really interesting! I first held the dumbbell in my right hand and had him "take it" and release a few times. Then I took a piece of food out of my pocket, held it in my left hand and showed it to him. Then said "take it." WOW He completely ignored the dumbbell and tried getting the food from my other hand!! I didn't do anything but repeat "take it" in an encouraging voice. The first time he happened to go near the dumbbell and I think grabbed it in irritation. Yes! Success! "Out" and he gets the treat. With each try he got quicker at leaving the food alone and going straight for the dumbbell. The I tried it with putting the dumbbell on the ground in front of us. He tried everything BUT picking up the dumbbell, not only nosing my hand with the food but laying down, getting in heel position, etc, I finally had to tap the dumbbell with my finger. He did better the next few times. I thought this was a really useful game to really proof the dumbbell. 

This is really new to me so I'm certainly no expert, I'm sure there are lots of other examples, I'm still figuring it out!


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Anney... why would you teach your dog to jump up during heeling?


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

When you are doing only positive with no reward markers, you are not "waiting around.". In my limited experience with nine Goldens, we are not talking about light years.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

My "bounces" are different, based more on the Sylvia Bishop style of bounce with hand in the collar lifting the front end of the dog off the ground. This was invaluable to get a quick attitude change in Colby (yeah, I know, who would have thought that a Lhasa Apso could get an attitude during training . If he was being a little poopy I could give him a bounce and he would suddenly be all perky again.

I have modified that with Flip to Linda Koutsky's method of bounce (which is still based on Sylvia's bounce). She conditions the bounce by initially bouncing the dog to a treat or toy. The food or toy stays there until the dog is flying through the air on their own when the slightest bit of pressure is applied up on the collar. It's done with just one finger in the collar, because the dog is the one really doing all the work, the pressure of one finger lifting up is really just the signal. Now it is just something the dog has learned is fun. So when my dog doesn't do something, I can "bounce" them into it. For example, if my dog doesn't finish, one finger in the collar, he happily jumps in the air, and then I shift the collar pressure in the direction of the finish. Or if he doesn't down, one finger in collar, dog flies in air, then switch the direction of the pressure towards a down position.

Flip probably wouldn't care if I did more traditional corrections with him, but that's not nearly as much fun!

I have helped a friend use this with his super soft border collie, and it has been a huge lifesaver in being able to "correct" the dog while keeping his spirit up and enjoying the work.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I understand teaching your dog to "bounce" or jump up when released, but why would you teach jumping during heeling?


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

So Anney, you are luring?


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Sally's Mom said:


> So Anney, you are luring?


I'm not Anney, but I do lure!


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Oops! Luring is what my trainer wants me to move away from...


----------



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Another one is to do with the dumbbell. I tried this for the first time today with Slater and it was really interesting! I first held the dumbbell in my right hand and had him "take it" and release a few times. Then I took a piece of food out of my pocket, held it in my left hand and showed it to him. Then said "take it." WOW He completely ignored the dumbbell and tried getting the food from my other hand!! I didn't do anything but repeat "take it" in an encouraging voice. The first time he happened to go near the dumbbell and I think grabbed it in irritation. Yes! Success! "Out" and he gets the treat. With each try he got quicker at leaving the food alone and going straight for the dumbbell. The I tried it with putting the dumbbell on the ground in front of us. He tried everything BUT picking up the dumbbell, not only nosing my hand with the food but laying down, getting in heel position, etc, I finally had to tap the dumbbell with my finger. He did better the next few times. I thought this was a really useful game to really proof the dumbbell.


Your post made me go looking for this...





 
I've tried it a lot with Dooley and we both enjoy the "game". 

This has been a great thread. I have been learning from all of you. Thanks.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Sally's Mom said:


> So Anney, you are luring?


At what point? No the bounces are not luring as the dog has to actively do something, he's not just blindly following the food. This is a small portion of heeling, not something I do every time we heel. It is to build drive and strength in heeling. If you've watched any of my videos I've posted of me heeling with Slater you will see that during our "normal" heeling I don't even have food in my hands, his motivator for heeling is his tug toy (conveniently stuffed in my pants! LOL), not food. I don't hold anything in my hands but the leash, he is not watching anything but my eyes while heeling.

Megora -- heeling is all about being in drive. So long as the dog is in heel position, jumping and bouncing means we are having FUN! Drive, motivation, energy, heeling is everything in obedience. I even practice Slater jumping from a sit in heel position, to grab a treat up near my shoulder, and he has to land back in heel position. So long as he is not lunging forward in front of me, forging or getting out of heel position sideways I will take jumping any day of the week. Dogs who hate heeling certainly don't jump for joy while heeling


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Jodie I do the collar bounce too with Slater, although I use it a limited amount. He likes it. The jackpot "do you want your toy" stuff sort of has replaced it for me though.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I can't think of anything that I don't at least initially lure. For most things once the concept is taught the lure is gone forever, but for heeling I will occasionally pull out a treat to act as a marker so I can maintain focus on that exact spot I want during heeling. I find if I don't do that once in a while the spot will start to fade or become more general over time.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Laura what a cute video! That's exactly what I did! LOL Is this on Janice's new proofing DVD? So cute!


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Well the trainer I have worked with for at least fifteen years has evolved... Luring is a no go... I enlisted help for teaching down to one of the youngsters. None of you would even understand it as I am not sure I do.


----------



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Laura what a cute video! That's exactly what I did! LOL Is this on Janice's new proofing DVD? So cute!


Yes, it is on her DVD, but I saw it when she had it posted on her website. Now it isn't on the website, but is still on Youtube. It is a fun game, they do figure it out quickly.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

That's what I love about Janice, she is so practical in training, you don't have to be a PhD to figure it out! LOL


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't have a trainer I follow exclusively. I spend hours daily studying training groups, reading book, watching videos, and learning all the different techniques out there to train something, and then I do what makes the most sense to me and my dogs.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> Megora -- heeling is all about being in drive. So long as the dog is in heel position, jumping and bouncing means we are having FUN! Drive, motivation, energy, heeling is everything in obedience. I even practice Slater jumping from a sit in heel position, to grab a treat up near my shoulder, and he has to land back in heel position. So long as he is not lunging forward in front of me, forging or getting out of heel position sideways I will take jumping any day of the week. Dogs who hate heeling certainly don't jump for joy while heeling


So it's not a problem if you have a dog jumping throughout the heel? 

I thought I saw quibbles on an obedience list about judging a leaping heeler, and I know I've heard quibbles from the sidelines at trials about dogs who are jumping up throughout the heel, so I wondered... 

With Jacks I do "gotcha" games where I encourage him to jump when I release him. It's me clapping my hands or tagging him to get him up and ready for the next thing.

*** I also go to multiple training facilities and pick up tips and training ideas from various people. Even just watching at trials, I like picking up handling ideas from people whose dogs are obviously having a ball.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Sally's Mom said:


> When you are doing only positive with no reward markers, you are not "waiting around.". In my limited experience with nine Goldens, we are not talking about light years.


To me it's waiting around but it works for a lot of people and that's fine.
My worry with this approach is twofold: #1 I don't issue a command to my dog(s) if I'm not prepared to immediately follow it up should they choose not to immediately comply. If I think they don't know it well enough to understand (and part of every command is the implied : do it NOW) or they are too distracted to pay attention I'm not going to give the command. If they for some reason chose not to do it you better believe I'm going to make it happen. 
#2 Saying a command then waiting the dog out, and praising/rewarding when he decides to do it, is sort of teaching him to go slow. Like the dogs who have a slow recall in obedience, whether its walking in on articles or moving stand or whatever. If you allow them to do the death march in, then explode in happiness when they arrive in front...well guess what, they just got a big fat jackpot for going slow. To me waiting a dog out is just like this. Allowing them the choice to do it or not then praising them for going slow. I like a lot of kinetic energy and dynamics in my training so waiting for a dog to decide is not my cup of tea. Admittedly -- not the world's most patient trainer! This is why I have goldens and not sighthounds!
Just explaining my thoughts, I'm not trying to convince you to change from something that jives with you. And it ties in well with the subject of want to vs. have to.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> So it's not a problem if you have a dog jumping throughout the heel?
> 
> I thought I saw quibbles on an obedience list about judging a leaping heeler, and I know I've heard quibbles from the sidelines at trials about dogs who are jumping up throughout the heel, so I wondered...


Well it is a problem if the dog does this in the ring, of course 
Then again we train for 200% effort in training because dogs tend to stress down, so if we even get half effort it's still 100%. The other theory is that if you get them sky-high in training then work through it you are mimicking what happens to dogs who stress UP in the ring. 

Also while there are times I tell Slater to bounce while heeling and he gets rewarded for it (either the bounces I describe above or, if I ask him if he wants his tug toy he bounces up like YES!!!) but if he just gives me a random bounce of happiness during heeling I will say GOOD! but I don't stop and reward it, we just keep heeling. I'll take the attitude any day of the week! 

I would be curious to see what the obedience judges thought about the bouncing dog. If the dog stayed in absolute heel position, didn't forge or swing it's butt out, or trip the handler or bark his head off....hmmm....stayed in heel position.....would you demark it?



> With Jacks I do "gotcha" games where I encourage him to jump when I release him. It's me clapping my hands or tagging him to get him up and ready for the next thing.


Cute stuff! And a great idea!


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Bouncing/leaping during heeling is definitely scorable. I've been hit twice for it already with Flip! For one jump one judge hit me one point (would have been a 199.5 otherwise) and the second judge he did it under hit me two points. I never ever allow Flip to get away with it in heeling (except in the ring when I can't do anything about it) because he natually wants to leap around and he is way more likely to stress up than down in the ring. There was a discussion about it recently on one of the yahoo training groups and all the judges agreed it was scorable.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Happy said:


> Great info from you guys. What do you do with a guy who is tough and is good at heeling with a toy under my arm but once it goes away then he heels good when he feels like it? So he doesn't "want to" and I'm sure trying to make him "have to". We do play alot with heeling and with verbal praise when he is heeling perfectly but I also give corrections when he isn't giving me total attention. We train with a pinch collar because this guy is tough as nails. He wants to do go outs and loves the jumps but heeling is well, I'm not that pleased with it.


Did you go from using a toy and working without it... or did you fade the toy away or hide it (stuffing it in your shirt or down your pants)? 

How much heeling do you do? Or do you ever just do fun heeling drills with him to encourage more "active" and focused heeling? Basically shaping the type of attention and energy you want from your dog and "marking" it (stopping at once and rewarding).


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

So those of you that bounce--would you do it on a dog that already has that tendency? I like the idea. Problem is Scout already has a tendency to want to leap straight up when starting a heeling pattern and I was told by a judge that it is scoreable.


----------



## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

I also use popping up during heeling. Filly naturally wants to pop up, so it has now become a game for us, and she waits for my cue. I really like to use it on about turns, and fast times, I feel it keeps them driving. I also do it with Rivet, he thinks it is fun.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I do let mine jump up for a treat or toy. But for me the key is only when given permission to do that. It is random leaps of joy that I do not allow during heeling. BUt that's just my personal choice. I know many people just choose to ignore the leaping.


----------



## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> I do let mine jump up for a treat or toy. But for me the key is only when given permission to do that. It is random leaps of joy that I do not allow during heeling. BUt that's just my personal choice. I know many people just choose to ignore the leaping.


Exactly, otherwise they look like pogo sticks, or popcorn(like Filly used to). It just doesn't look smooth.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Stretchdrive said:


> Exactly, otherwise they look like pogo sticks, or popcorn(like Filly used to). It just doesn't look smooth.


Pogo stick is Flip's middle name


----------

