# Problems with Dogtra collar



## roxihart (Mar 5, 2009)

Hi, Sammie just turned a year and I'm having issues with her training. We've used a Dogtra collar for training and off leash purposes solely and also a prong collar for convenience of more consistency without having to use the Dogtra all the time. Lately, I've noticed that she seems to be extremely obedient, even fearful, when wearing the Dogtra even if it's not on... but kind of "rebellious" when we take it off. I feel that it has been a great communication aid with training, but I don't want to break her spirit or for her to feel like its a punishment when she has to wear it. Should we make it a daily thing as recommended by our trainer or do you have any other suggestions?? 

Our main concerns are jumping and recalling. Her new habits have her jumping on anyone EXCEPT me and running off leash. GRRR. Thanks!


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Have never heard of the Dogtra collar, but bumping this up for you! Hope someone can give you some advice!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

The Dogtra collar is an e-collar. 

What your describing is, unfortunately, quite common among dogs trained with e-collars. It is a punishment when it's used, so yes, she'd be thinking of it as such, and she's collar smart, which is why she can act up when the collar is off.

IMO, "conveneince" isn't really part of training. I've never felt the need to train with an e-collar. My dogs have excellent recalls when off-leash and if I spent more time on it, they wouldn't jump on people. (My dirty little secret is that jumping doesn't bother me or my friends, so I let them do it and I manage then when around people who don't like it.)

My advice would be to try a completely different training approach and accept that it will take time and really, there are no "quick fixes" in dog training. Dog training is like working out -- you gotta put in the work to see the results.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

roxihart said:


> Hi, Sammie just turned a year and I'm having issues with her training. We've used a Dogtra collar for training and off leash purposes solely and also a prong collar for convenience of more consistency without having to use the Dogtra all the time. Lately, I've noticed that she seems to be extremely obedient, even fearful, when wearing the Dogtra even if it's not on... but kind of "rebellious" when we take it off. I feel that it has been a great communication aid with training, but I don't want to break her spirit or for her to feel like its a punishment when she has to wear it. Should we make it a daily thing as recommended by our trainer or do you have any other suggestions??
> 
> Our main concerns are jumping and recalling. Her new habits have her jumping on anyone EXCEPT me and running off leash. GRRR. Thanks!


I may sound a bit harsh, but E-collars are tools of reinforcement. The issue really isn't the E-collar, it is a lack of understanding of the rules and/or expectations. This is most often brought on by a lack of consistency on the humans part in enforcing the desired rules. The foundation of obedience wasn't solid enough before transitioning to the E-collar. 

You have inadvertantly conditioned the dog to believe it only has to behave when it's wearing the E-collar. She's become "Collar Wise" (If the collar isn't on, she doesn't have to listen to you and she can do as she pleases.) The way out of this is short daily training sessions (Obedience) working with the dog on a lead and or check cord. (Here, Heel, Sit, Stay and some basic heeling patterns.) Establish a standard in training then uphold that standard consistently day in, day out.


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## Bogart'sMom (Sep 16, 2005)

Very cool post, I couldn't have said it any better. Have you tried the other side clicker training? Look for a good clicker trainer or a trainer who works with positive reenforcement and see your dog come flying back to you when you call him. My dog is 3 years old and we do lots of diffrent training classes. All are fun for my dog, we do RallyO, doggy dancing, agility, Tricks class, Outdoor adventure, Therapy dog class, the sky is the limit and he ENJOYS it. Try another aproach and see the bonding beginn.
All the best,


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

It sounds like she's not getting enough positive work done, just corrections for things she's doing wrong. Not sure if that's true or not, but that would be my first guess. I use the e collar for certain things, like not coming when called or taking off to go after other people tossing balls - issues that I was having at the time. I'll often do a whole session with the collar on and then realize at home it wasn't turned on or the control is sitting at home - I don't depend on it for everything, and I use more praise and play than I do corrections with the collar.

I don't use the collars full time, but I use them when we go training or to the park, if there's been an issue to work out - then it's on quite a bit for a week or so and then off again.

Lana


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

roxihart said:


> Hi, Sammie just turned a year and I'm having issues with her training. We've used a Dogtra collar for training and off leash purposes solely and also a prong collar for convenience of more consistency without having to use the Dogtra all the time. Lately, I've noticed that she seems to be extremely obedient, even fearful, when wearing the Dogtra even if it's not on... but kind of "rebellious" when we take it off. I feel that it has been a great communication aid with training, but I don't want to break her spirit or for her to feel like its a punishment when she has to wear it. Should we make it a daily thing as recommended by our trainer or do you have any other suggestions??


Congrats, you have trained your dog to be collar wise. Yes, you should listen to your trainer and be more consistent and don't teach her that collar = corrections and no collar = no corrections. That's exactly what's happened here.
Someone else said that this is common with e-collar trained dogs. Actually, it's common with inexperienced trainers who own a dog and an e-collar. They think they are being nice or -- even worse -- training the dog to work without the collar. This just teaches the dog the difference. 
I do not have experience with using an e-collar for pet training. I'm not sure how that would work, did your trainer say to leave the collar on all the time? 
I only use the collar for field training. I trained for months with the dog wearing the collar, turned off, before ever starting the collar conditioning process. He wears the collar EVERY TIME we go train, even if I have absolutely no intention or expectation of using it. This way, he does not figure out that the presence of the collar = corrections. To him, collar = training = fun. He comes running when he hears the beep of the collar turning on.
Please consult your trainer for follow up.


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## roxihart (Mar 5, 2009)

Thank you so much for all your input! To clarify, "consistency" my trainer was talking about was that he expected her to wear it 24/7 unless she was asleep. I didn't really agree, but trusted what he said and I suppose now she is "collar wise." Like I said, now I only use it when training, but I will work more on communicating that it is not a punishment. My trainer's methods are just not for my GR or what I want to make of my relationship with her.

Any more tips on how reversing what is done would be greatly appreciated. My DH did make a comment that all of the things I have taught her with pure positive reinforcement are the things that stuck reliably, it was nice to hear since I feel so helpless training my own pup.  Is there a way to make her calmer around people/dogs or does it come with age??

THANKS AGAIN!!


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## roxihart (Mar 5, 2009)

Thanks for your insight. That was exactly my thought that there was not enough praise. I spoke to my trainer about my concern, but he felt as if I needed to establish myself as more of an authority to her I guess. Really, I would just like her to come because she wants to not because she's afraid of what happens if she doesn't.

Being a preschool teacher, we use the same positive reinforcement. I should have gone with my gut but I was afraid I didn't know much about training a dog.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

roxihart said:


> Thanks for your insight. Really, I would just like her to come because she wants to not because she's afraid of what happens if she doesn't.
> 
> Being a preschool teacher, we use the same positive reinforcement. I should have gone with my gut but I was afraid I didn't know much about training a dog.


GOOD FOR YOU!  I'll admit, I'm pretty anti- e-collar, so I'm thrilled when people go with other methods. *MOST* pet owners turn to the e-collar as a short cut. Heck, many trainers do too. I know there are some trainers on this list who truly do train a behavior first w/o the collar and then use the collar to fine tune and proof around distractions. While I'm still not comfortable with e-collar use, that way makes more sense to me than just slapping it on the dog and buzzing him for not doing what he was never taught in the first place! 

Anyway, here's some good recall info to start off with:

http://www.kathysdao.com/articles/The_First_Steps_to_Teaching_a_Reliable_Recall.html

http://www.kathysdao.com/articles/More_on_the_Reliable_Recall.html

Also, consider getting a copy of "Really Reliable Recall" by Leslie Nielson. It's in book and DVD format. Available on www.dogwise.com or www.cleanrun.com.


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## John G (Dec 27, 2008)

I want to clarify that you are not having problems with your Dogtra collar. You are having issues with your dog due to your training and use/misuse of the collar.

Dogtra and Tritronics are well regarded as the two best collars on the market.

It sounds like you have not properly collar conditioned your dog. As a result your dog is indeed "collar wise". While I don't agree with 24/7, I would agree to strap it on before any training sessions and try to make them fun or simple at first. You can also use a dummy collar that does or does not have the prongs to wear while not training so that the dog feels the weight of the collar but does not get rubbed raw from the prongs constantly against its neck.

First collar condition correctly. Many good DVDs on the subject. Mike Lardy probably has the best even though he is a field trainer.

Many inexperienced trainers or those with a "new electric toy" tend to over use them. They are not a magic wand. Too many people want to push the button as soon as the dog does anything wrong. This is WRONG!!!

You must first alway teach the dog the concept in training. Testing the dog on a concept only comes after the dog has been properly taught what to do or avoid. Try to keep it positive. Pushing buttons whenever the dog does something you don't like will only add to the dog's confusion and bring its attitude way down. When this happens you have failed the dog. The dog has not failed you!


John


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## roxihart (Mar 5, 2009)

I know its not an issue with the collar, but it got the point of my post across best in the title. 

Unfortunately the trainer used it to teach new commands and it led to her being afraid to disobey. I will do my best to reverse this... my question is really for tips on how to do so, I already know why she behaves that way.


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## nate.the.great (Mar 17, 2009)

1. The collar stays on at all times except when sleeping. Your dog should get a break from the collar for 8 hours a day.

2. Don't use the collar the first couple days you re-introduce it.

3. Use positive training always and think of the collar as a long leash only used to reinforce known commands and breaking a habit that is known to be bad.

4. Check to make sure you aren't using a setting that is too high. Your dog should never vocalize when you are using the collar.

A lot of training well is fine tuning the training. Here's my story...

I have a husky and golden mix that has an extremely strong prey drive and will ignore all commands when he sees another dog. We worked with professional trainers and also used a long lead to train a reliable recall. They didn't work because as soon as he realized his lead wasn't on him, he knew he could misbehave and no one could catch him. I have another husky mix that the training worked perfectly on. So, I decided to go with a tri-tronics collar.

Chip (my husky golden) wears his collar at all times so he is not collar-wise. I have found that using continuous stimulation at a low level is what he responds best to. We train every day outside and my primary method is a pocketful of treats. He gets praise and treats everytime he does something correctly. If I call for him to come, he's far away, and he doesn't respond, I give him a low level of stimulation until he obeys my command. When he finishes that recall, he gets a treat. So even after a correction, he gets a treat when he finishes the command.

The first two days of training, when I was learning how to best use an e-collar to train him, and he was learning that he has to obey regardless of where he is in relation to me, it was tough. He played less outside and was more apprehensive about going outside. I think he had an electric fence at some point in his life, so he thought outside meant shocks? (He was 7 when I adopted him.) By day 4 with consistent positive training as well as "stimulation", he understands that he can play outside without his leash and without "stimulation" if he follows the rules (aka obey). Starting that day, he bothers me to take him outside ALL THE TIME!! He is a very happy boy these days, and finally has a reliable recall.


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