# What do you understand about Style vs. Momentum?



## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

Having never competed but having hunted over several dogs my view would be the following...style would reference the way in which a dog covers a field, the way the dog carries himself. Momentum would reference the dogs desire and determination.

I saw this post earlier today and was hoping to see some feed back. I'm curious Evan, what are your feelings?


Pete


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I think style is one of those things that's hard to define but easy to recognize when you see it. To me, it's the general demeanor of the dog. He is happy, willing, focused, and part of the team. 
Momentum is just the dog's drive to continue on. (a body in motion tends to stay in motion). A dog can have loads of momentum but no real style if he's just crashing aimlessly thru the cover heading off in the general direction he thinks he'd like to head off in.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

FeatherRiverSam said:


> I saw this post earlier today and was hoping to see some feed back. I'm curious Evan, what are your feelings?
> 
> 
> Pete


Very similar to yours, Pete. It's always puzzled me that so many people use the terms interchangably, even when judging. The rules provide judges with latitude to penalize dogs with poor style, up to and including elimination from a stake. But there is no mention of momentum. I think that's because a dog with poor momentum will eliminate himself.

My definitions:

Momentum - *1 – the force possessed by a moving body (Webster’s dictionary), 2 – in a retriever, a term that describes the mental force/compulsion that maintains compulsion from the dogs’ point of origin against perceived resistance - the determination that causes a dog to drive on in rough going*

Style - 
*1 –* *showiness, 2 – the speed, spirit, and/or enthusiasm a dog displays in route to a retrieve*

*Style vs. Momentum in Retrievers - YouTube*

What do you think?

EvanG


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

EvanG


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

I see style and momentum as very different things. A stylish dog will demostrate momentum, but momentum does not necessarilly make a dog stylish as it goes about its work. 

Style is radiated by a dog in its every action. By its movement and carriage it says "I like what I'm doing and I'm ****** happy to be here." A stylish dog will demonstrate momentum in accomplishing its goals. 


Momentum? I think of perserverence and the qualities a dog needs to stay on task, overcoming the obstacles along the path to acheiving ones goals. Some of these qualities are inherent, other relate to training. Dogs with good momentum are better able to overcome the obstacles found along the way. Dogs will poor momentum will tend to be pushed around or drift due to the obstacles encountered. Desire, drive, courage, speed and willingness to accept training all come into play.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Style---When the dog comes to line "chomping on the bit", every muscle tense, maybe looking like a dragster revving his engines, looking like he's ready to explode with every step, and then when the judge says "dog" and the handler releases him you see a dog that goes straight as an arrow and busting through any cover in the way.

I love it.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I think Style is the way a dog works the field does he have his nose down casting if he hunting up pheasants or chuckers, does he mark the shot if a duck has fallen and run straight to it. How does he use his ablities to get the job done with grace, speed and follow through.

Momentum that is what a dog shows when it is tough going. Does that dog do everything in his power to finish the job you sent him after. Does he have perserverance..will he contintue to hunt if he has trouble.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

I can't watch the video, will try tomorrow at work, but my guess/opinion:
Style is inherent in the dog, part of the personality - energy, attention, talent, etc
I'm not sure if some may be taught - like obedience.
Our dog skool teecher who judges said he thinks: do I want to hunt with this dog? I'm not sure if that's part of style, like a calm orderly working dog vs a nut.
Momentum can be taught - the dog goes where you say until it gets there.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

I like agree with Barb "style is one of those things that's hard to define but easy to recognize when you see it."
My girl, Winter, I think is a good working dog. However, my friend Sandy's little girl Cozy has skyhigh style. They are both running Senior right now.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Good thoughts on this so far. Apparently too few people read the part of the AKC rule book on field trials governing style in particular. I think they did a great job defining and dealing with it. Here is a direct quote.

*(7)* Style is apparent in every movement of a dog and throughout his entire performance at trials, for example: by the gaiety of his manner in approaching the line, by his alertness on-line, by his eagerness and speed on retrieves, by his water-entry, by his pick-up of birds and by his return with them. Style makes for a pleasing performance; together with ability to mark, they constitute the most important factors for placing’s in Derby Stakes.
In all stakes, in respect to “style,’’ a desired performance includes: (a) an alert and obedient _attitude_, (b) a fast-determined departure, both on land and into the water, (c) an aggressive search for the “fall,’’ (d) a prompt pick-up, and (e) a reasonably fast return. Dogs may be credited for outstanding and brilliant exhibitions of style, or they may be penalized for deficiencies in style — the severity of the penalty ranging from a minor demerit, to elimination from the stake.

Momentum is a physics term, and it has that place overall in defining how dogs perform. The word "drive" is aptly used here, and it is that trait that allows a dog to act out the definition; the ability to maintain velocity against resistance. That overcomes distance as well as obstacles.

Everybody on the same page?

EvanG


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

So--is there a difference between 'style' and 'flashy'?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> So--is there a difference between 'style' and 'flashy'?


Nah! I think a truly stylish dog _is_ flashy!! 

EvanG


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

EvanG said:


> Nah! I think a truly stylish dog _is_ flashy!!
> 
> EvanG


Ok but do you think all flashy dogs have style? Does it relate to their working ability or can it be a separate quality? I ask because I know dogs (in multiple venues really) who have that sparkle and are fun to watch but not necessarily high drive or high performers. Yet they catch the average viewer's attention more readily than some solid performer who do not carry the same visible sparkle and energy.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Maybe that's just it -- with both "flash" and "style" we immediately think speed but when it comes right down to it, speed isn't the defining factor of either. Eye-catching and enjoyable would be better definitions. 

BTW the last hunt test I was at I volunteered to hang birds for the master judges in the last series. This is always such an eye opening learning experience. I finally got a good grasp of what "perseverance" means : refusal to let factors deviate the dog from it's perfect path to the bird. Perfect example was, one of the memory birds was about 45 yards, cut across the end of a pond. The middle of the pond was filled with lily pads. Memory, shoreline and lily pads caused most dogs to hug the shore on their way out to the bird. One golden, however, cut a perfect path to the bird, neither fading to shore nor deviating because of the lily pads. She was the only one to swim straight through the pads. The judge remarked that she got a high score for perseverance. Anyways I think that plays in to the "momentum" conversation. So maybe momentum = perseverance?


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Momentum, that's my barometer. 
It my job to preserve and build it. If there is a loss of momentum I need to figure out why.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Maybe that's just it -- with both "flash" and "style" we immediately think speed but when it comes right down to it, speed isn't the defining factor of either. Eye-catching and enjoyable would be better definitions.... So maybe momentum = perseverance?


To the first point, as much as many people attempt to diminish the role of speed in defining style, "speed" does not imply an amount. It is, however, a necessary component of a definition of style that gives a fair and comparative tool to judges in judging overall performance. Directly from the AKC rule book:

(7) Style is apparent in every movement of a dog and throughout his entire performance at trials, for example: by the gaiety of his manner in approaching the line, by his alertness on-line, by his eagerness and *speed* on retrieves, by his water-entry, by his pick-up of birds and by his return with them. Style makes for a pleasing performance; together with ability to mark, they constitute the most important factors for placing’s in Derby Stakes.
In all stakes, in respect to “style,’’ a desired performance includes: (a) an alert and obedient _attitude_, (b) a *fast*-determined departure, both on land and into the water, (c) an aggressive search for the “fall,’’ (d) a prompt pick-up, and (e) a reasonably *fast* return. Dogs may be credited for outstanding and brilliant exhibitions of style, or they may be penalized for deficiencies in style — the severity of the penalty ranging from a minor demerit, to elimination from the stake.

I think your "momentum = perserverance" idea has real merit. One of the dictionaries' better definitions of momentum includes "the ability to maintain velocity against resistance". Things like distance and terrain are factors that provide resistance, and a dog with strong momentum can maintain velocity in their presence.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Holly, interesting thought. Momentum is our job (to build it, maintain it, etc) while style is the dog's job.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Holly, interesting thought. Momentum is our job (to build it, maintain it, etc) while style is the dog's job.


I agree, but only to a point. If a dog is naturally stylish, but is now slow, tentative, or nervous in the field, that is nearly always a trainer deficit. Maintaining a good working attitude is also our job, and that is central to maintaining style.

EvanG


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I would say my friend's lab is a solid performer and excellent marker with good momentum in the sense that she keeps going--but she is not flashy, or stylish, or fast. She does get the job done. When I first started field training I thought this dog was SO boring to watch but she is far more consistent than most of the dogs in my regular training group. She pins a lot of birds. I've come to appreciate that more as I've gotten more experience. I would say she still has good momentum because even though she is slow, she keeps going.

OTOH one of my other friend's flat coats is a very flashy dog. He's got some bone, substance, nice coat, and very enthusiastic demeanor. His tail is up, he powers through the brush and overall is fun to watch bouncing around working it--but he lacks for perseverance at times and has given up on marks before only to try and return back empty handed. He won't be trained beyond a JH. Her other boy who does not have that pizzaz is a more honest, hard worker without all the flashy fun fluff.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

You've reminded me of a Canadian friend whose dogs have never had significant style, but are not pigs either. Just modest, pleasant style, and plenty of momentum. They're very reliable and easy to handle. These dogs aren't big movers that can get you in trouble on a blind...going out of sight because you couldn't hit a whistle quickly enough.

Dogs like that will keep you playing, but will rarely win. In the HT game, that's a good combination!

EvanG


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

EvanG said:


> You've reminded me of a Canadian friend whose dogs have never had significant style, but are not pigs either. Just modest, pleasant style, and plenty of momentum. They're very reliable and easy to handle. These dogs aren't big movers that can get you in trouble on a blind...going out of sight because you couldn't hit a whistle quickly enough.
> 
> Dogs like that will keep you playing, but will rarely win. In the HT game, that's a good combination!
> 
> EvanG


 
I believe you just described my girl, reliable, easy to handle, plenty of momentum. Really not "enough dog" to play the FT game but more than enough dog to teach me how to play the HT game and get me hooked. A friend who plays this game and hunts over her dogs calls her "a good old fashion hunting dog".


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Sweet! Sounds about right. She'll teach you plenty as time goes along!

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Evan

I am curious about you ownr gundog. How would you describe your dog in terms of style/momentum?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Moose is a dog with very good style. On a scale of 0-10 I would rate his style at 8-9, and his momentum about the same.





 
EvanG


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