# He growled at me !!!! Have I done the right thing ?



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

You did a good thing trading the cheese for the pigs ear. That was exactly the way to handle it. 

But I wouldn't just take it and give it back to him unless you make it into a game. Otherwise it's not really a training session, it's just showing him that you will take things away and can actually cause the guarding to become worse. Honestly, it may be that pigs ears are too high value for him right now. If that had happened with one of my pups, I would have traded the cheese for the pigs ear and then put the pigs ear away for a few weeks (or forever).


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

You gave a good response trading the cheese for the pig ear......as long as you are careful not to let the little one think that the growl gets him cheese, timing is everything. I also like to correct the growling without trading, I don't always have something to trade. The pig ear would disappear if it were my dog.
Wagondog


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I think you did just right!

The lesson is you can take anything away any time. Our lesson came at about 10 weeks over a raw steak bone. I did the same as you and in the end let her go back to chewing. Every few minutes I would take it away, hold it a minute and then give it back.

If you're a little upset by this, it might be better to postpone really good treats like pig's ears and things like that until you've been through some basic obedience and he's matured a bit. Maybe wait a year or so.

There's plenty of time to build a good foundation that will work for everyone for a lifetime.


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## GoldenJoy (Jul 30, 2009)

I'm so glad you posted this! We had the same issue at puppy class. I had never observed any guarding of anything, food or toy. In class, one instructor wanted to "up" the challenge of "drop it" for our Joy, so she brought out the rawhide - instant crazy guarding from Miss Joy! The instructor who introduced the rawhide said that she found the behavior "very troubling." What the heck? Naturally, I was concerned, but then the other instructor walked over, traded the rawhide for a treat, and said, "It's pretty simple - don't let her have rawhide, and keep working "drop it" faithfully with lower value stuff." 

We've been working "drop it" a lot in the months since then, and this very morning, Joy instantly dropped a branch (I thought it had mushrooms on it) at the park on command even without a trade. 

Sounds like you did just the right thing.


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

Mine have tons of beef bones, Nylabones and so on..give them pig ears and the fight and growling is on. So I just avoid the pig ears and we have happy pups. Yes they would even growl at me when they had them!


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

Oh man, we had (er... still kinda do, as I found out last night) with our five-month-old and his bully stick. It's actually gone to his food now too. We're trying really hard to get him to stop, by trading for something even better. We just aren't going to give him bully sticks anymore. Too high value. But the food is troubling. He seemed fine when we got him, we would play with his body while he ate (so he wouldn't develop this kind of this) ... and take the food away several times. 

Well. NOW he turns into a demon when we do it. It's the worst feeling EVER. Gary Cesar-Millan-pins him to the ground until he's calm... and then he's all happy and waggy again.

So I feel you. Just don't give him the pig ears anymore, and good luck on future food and toys!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*we would play with his body while he ate (so he wouldn't develop this kind of this) ... and take the food away several times. *

Unless the "playing with his body" and "taking the food" included ADDING SOMETHING better to the bowl as he was eating, it's possible that it was a contributor to the behavior. Not looking to fault you --- b/c doing just what you did is very common advice, but for many dogs, the handling by itself (doing it just cuz we have thumbs and we can) causes stress that later manifests itself as aggression around the bowl when humans are near. I always suggest people leave something better BEHIND in the dog's bowl when they do any handling of the dog or bowl as he's eating. Give the dog a solid REASON to enjoy having you there, not just trying to get the dog to tolorate it. WE may think "look, nothing bad is happening, dog...." but to the dog, being "bothered" while eating IS something bad.

I'd strongly suggest reconsidering the alpha roll too, for similar reasons. Likely to only add more "stress" to the situation and may backfire later.


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## max935 (Jul 28, 2009)

I have no advice to add - I just posted a very similar question about our 3.5 month old and didn't realise this was here!! A pigs ear is a very highly prized possession for her as well, and although she let me take one off her a few weeks ago, she growled at me over a bone on the weekend. Good to read people's advice - I think I might just hold off giving her these highly prized possessions for a few months (or forever!!)


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## snappyweather (Mar 4, 2007)

Best way to gauge if you 'did right'. Did you get the desired response? If so, you did right. If not, adjusts should be made.





whitedove said:


> Hiya guys
> We have a lovely goldie who is 13 weeks old,Tonight he showed a side of himself that I did'nt like,And want to STOP it asap.
> Hubby gave him a pig ear which he has never had before,I walked into the kitchen and he growled at me...I was so taken back by this...
> I wanted to get it from him.so bent down to take it,And he growled even more.So I left him with it....Not being happy about doing that I cut some cheese and offered it to him..He dropped the ear,which I took imediatly.
> ...


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

Your response from your description is exactly what I did with Asia when she did this at about the same age as your pup. We have had no problems since and I can take high value items away from her with no issues.


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## hgatesy (Feb 14, 2007)

> But I wouldn't just take it and give it back to him unless you make it into a game. Otherwise it's not really a training session, it's just showing him that you will take things away and can actually cause the guarding to become worse.


Actually you want your dog to get used to you taking stuff away from him... not always trading. If you're trading something your taking a chance your dog is eventually going to check out what you have in your hand and then possibly decide what it has is better. Now of course I'm sure most people can find something in their fridge their dog will trade for, but I know I don't want to be searching for a steak in the fridge in order to get a bone away from my dog. I just want the bone. I will admit I used to do this in the past with our dog Bentley. 

You want your dog to learn that a person taking something isn't horrible because they will get it back... of course you can't start this with pig ears or anything high value... you start with toys. 

Laying toys out when the dog has one you go up to them and say "what do you have, can I have it?" (or something similar in a happy voice) you grab their collar gently under their neck and take the toy from them... say "oh thank you" (happy voice again) and then place it on the ground. Of course you need to do that over and over but eventually the dog will learn that you coming up to take something isn't horrible and there is no need to run the other way or guard it. 

Now of course with high value items that's more difficult and lots of dogs have issues with yummy things. I just wouldn't give my dog such a high value item if he had problems giving it up and it caused issues. I tend to avoid issues like that if I know my dog can't handle giving it up without a problem.


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

wagondog said:


> You gave a good response trading the cheese for the pig ear......as long as you are careful not to let the little one think that the growl gets him cheese, timing is everything. I also like to correct the growling without trading, I don't always have something to trade. The pig ear would disappear if it were my dog.
> Wagondog


Ditto on what Wagondog said. Griff pulled that stunt with a pressed rawhide and it went up on top of a high cabinet for quite some time before I let him have it again. If that behavior continues with a pig ear - discontinue the pig ear - he will live without pig ears - trust me. That's not a behavior you want to re-inforce. Be careful if he backs under the table or something like that because the growl is the warning before the bite.

Keep in mind.. he's being a brat - still testing the waters as all pups and children do.


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## Blazer (Aug 21, 2009)

Hi Dove!

My husban and I had the same problem with our golden when he was about the same age. I was also taken aback! He even seemed to snap a bit at the air. I poked him sharply in the shoulder (a firm, quick poke; but not intended to hurt him), followed with a firm "NO" and took it away from him. We then ignored him for about 5 minutes, gave it back to him..let him get into enjoying it and then repeated the process of taking it away. If he continued to growl we'd follow with the removal of the treat, discipline, and ignoring. If he did not growl we would praise him and give him the treat for awhile...then, you guessed it...repeat the process again. I had to do it myself and my husband had to do it. After doing this exercise for about 20 minutes a day for 2-3 days he finally got the point...growling equals no treat and no attention. we also would drop the treat on the floor and not let him have it until we let him, sometimes making him wait 10-15 minutes. We were claiming it, in a sense. Now if he has a treat and we walk up to him (without saying anything) he'll stop chewing on it and just look at us. Those were some trying times but he is now 8 months old and the sweetest thing ever!!! No growling since that time. We also did this with his food. The tastier it was the more he'd want it. It might also be a very good idea to teach him the "drop it" command if you have not already done so. Keep at it and hang in there. If you get frustrated just set the treat aside and try another time. He will get there.  Good luck and I hope this advice works for you as well. If he is showing deeper signs of aggression (biting that breaks the skin...) you may want to seek professional help.


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## LuckyPup (Sep 9, 2009)

I am glad you posted this! I was just getting on to see if I could find anything on this issue. Lucky has never had any isssues with guarding. BUT my son was getting close to him and his bone this weekend (my son is 5) and he growled at him. I had no clue at all what to do! So I went over (nervously...) and took it. He was fine with me taking it.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Mssjnnfer said:


> Gary Cesar-Millan-pins him to the ground until he's calm... and then he's all happy and waggy again.


Well, this would be one of the reasons it's getting worse rather than better. Dogs don't learn that we have the "right" to take their food away. Food is survival in a dog's world, and guarding is a defense of that survival urge. The bigger dog (i.e., you) might be able to take food away, but the hungry dog is never going to learn that big dog has the "right" to do so, and if the big dog is always a threat to nutrition, the small dog may try intimidation (growls) or even physical defense (biting) to protect the food.

Dogs don't guard more for high value items because they want it more or because it's yummier. It's high value because it's triggering that "food is life" urge more deeply (due to flavor, scent, texture, etc.).

If you have a guarder, you don't need to teach him that you're big dog and he has to just deal with that. Intimidating a dog might get you obedience for a short period immediately after the intimidation (the big dog is currently more dangerous than going without food), but it deepens the urge to guard in the long run and increases the chance the dog will try new, more troubling behaviors to get what he thinks he needs.

A dog who's guarding is a dog who needs to learn that you provide good things and that there will always be enough food. When you touch him or remove the food while he's eating, you might be able to desensitize him a bit if he isn't already nervous, but if he is (and you're describing a dog who is), you're just teaching him that you're a threat to his food source.

Teach him the opposite: add food to the bowl a cup at a time so he learns that more food comes from you, not a threat. Add a piece of cheese to a bowl of kibble while he's going. Trade a chew for a treat without triggering the growl at all. Reassure him that he has no reason to fight for his survival.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> Well, this would be one of the reasons it's getting worse rather than better. Dogs don't learn that we have the "right" to take their food away. Food is survival in a dog's world, and guarding is a defense of that survival urge. The bigger dog (i.e., you) might be able to take food away, but the hungry dog is never going to learn that big dog has the "right" to do so, and if the big dog is always a threat to nutrition, the small dog may try intimidation (growls) or even physical defense (biting) to protect the food.
> 
> Dogs don't guard more for high value items because they want it more or because it's yummier. It's high value because it's triggering that "food is life" urge more deeply (due to flavor, scent, texture, etc.).
> 
> ...


Excellent! Wish I'd had this board for a resource back when!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

PS - it's incredibly important that our dogs learn to give us stuff without a trade. My dogs deliver _anything_ to hand, no matter how delicious, stinky, or exciting. However, during the training phase, just taking something away by force can completely backfire and teach your dog to fear you more.

Coercive, "dominant" solutions often give you immediate compliance (like on Milan's show), but they don't necessarily lay the groundwork for lifelong, willing obedience. Many times, coercive techniques can lay the groundwork for greater fear and a more dangerous dog.

Our dogs know that giving us stuff is a fun game, and they hand stuff over not because they know I'm "big dog" or they think I'll tackle them, but because they trust me. They know that giving stuff up is fun and, more importantly, it's what happens every time, so their habit of doing it is very strong.

I also think "fetch" has been a huge boon to a reliable "give me that" command. The dogs have brought back a tennis ball thousands of times and had that behavior reinforced with another throw. Delivering to hand is just what they're used to.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> PS - it's incredibly important that our dogs learn to give us stuff without a trade. My dogs deliver _anything_ to hand, no matter how delicious, stinky, or exciting. However, during the training phase, just taking something away by force can completely backfire and teach your dog to fear you more.
> 
> Coercive, "dominant" solutions often give you immediate compliance (like on Milan's show), but they don't necessarily lay the groundwork for lifelong, willing obedience. Many times, coercive techniques can lay the groundwork for greater fear and a more dangerous dog.
> 
> ...


Danny brings me the bone he is chewing on so that I can hold it for him while he re-arranges his grip, then he gives me a wag and goes to lie down and chew on it. It's obvious that he's not afraid I am going to take it from him. But if I tell him to leave it, he drops it immediately (usually when he is headed outside, outside toys stay out and indoor toys stay in).


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

> Actually you want your dog to get used to you taking stuff away from him... not always trading. If you're trading something your taking a chance your dog is eventually going to check out what you have in your hand and then possibly decide what it has is better. Now of course I'm sure most people can find something in their fridge their dog will trade for, but I know I don't want to be searching for a steak in the fridge in order to get a bone away from my dog. I just want the bone.


While it's true that you don't want to always *have* to trade to get something from your dog, making a habit of doing so can work wonderfully as a relationship-building/trust training exercise. The idea being, b/c you trade most of the time, you've built up a strong "balance" in your account to cover you when you need to get the chicken bone and don't have something else to trade for.

IMO, part of the success lies in using the trade to teach a strong drop it rather than teaching the dog to wait and see what trade item you're going to waft up under his nose.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

> Dogs don't guard more for high value items because they want it more or because it's yummier. It's high value because it's triggering that "food is life" urge more deeply (due to flavor, scent, texture, etc.).


Just adding a slightly different take to one of Tippy's comments (above).

IMO, dogs guard b/c they have something that, for whatever reason, has become extremely valuable to them. I don't think it's a "food is life" urge per se... or at least not always, 'cuz I've seen dogs guard stolen tissues just as fiercely as another dog guards a pig's ear. One dog was aggressively guarding CASH that was stolen off the coffee table when the owner would come home and empty her pockets. The dog had no inherent reason to believe that cash was valuable --- but he learned to guard it b/c the owner's response to him taking it taught the dog that the item (cash) was valuable.

I always like to remind myself that we don't know what the dog is thinking... so regarding guarding, I generally say dogs guard b/c the resource is valuable to them. And some things are more valuable than others... so actually, I DO think you can say they want certain things more. 

Now I'm curious... do you have any research that supports the idea of the ability of something like a pig ear to, based on smell, taste, etc. trigger some sort of primal "food is life" urge? It's an interesting theory --- but I'd want to see it supported before personally thinking I know exactly what's going on in the dog's head vs. looking at the behavior itself.

JMO.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Some great advice here, and I agree that the pigs ear is just too high value at your pup's age. I'd not give any for a while yet. I only use treats as training aids at this age, chew toys are non edible.

As for hovering around and handling dogs when they're trying to eat, I have never seen the sense in this. It will only make the dog feel uncomfortable when it's trying to eat. 

I do agree with adding food slowly, or I would approach the bowl while the pup is eating and just throw something even nicer into the bowl. Nothing is taken away, and I don't feel the need to control the whole mealtime. The food is put down, the dogs are allowed to approach their bowl to eat, the dogs are left alone to eat their food. If I approach with a dinner plate while my dogs are eating they will lift their heads while I scrape left overs into their bowl.

If you only approach and ADD something tasty while they're eating, they will feel comfortable with your presence, it's positive because you mean something pleasant, right?

My dogs have never ever growled or seem uncomfortable with hands near food bowls!!

And as for alpha rolling......... I don't feel it's necessary and can hamper your attempts to create a bond and trust between you and your pup. Kindness is the key. Oh, and PATIENCE... lots and lots of patience


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

I just wanted to add, my two (adults) get pigs ears as a very special treat maybe once a month. The ones we have are huge, so I cut them in half, and give them. It's funny, how both dogs will go separate ways with their "huge prize!!". If one choses to eat indoors, the other will stand by the door to eat outside. They probably could eat side by side (they eat their food pretty close to each other) but with the pigs ears, they want to be on they own to enjoy it...

Once given, I let them enjoy and don't take away again...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> While it's true that you don't want to always *have* to trade to get something from your dog, making a habit of doing so can work wonderfully as a relationship-building/trust training exercise. The idea being, b/c you trade most of the time, you've built up a strong "balance" in your account to cover you when you need to get the chicken bone and don't have something else to trade for.
> 
> IMO, part of the success lies in using the trade to teach a strong drop it rather than teaching the dog to wait and see what trade item you're going to waft up under his nose.


I totally agree with this. You may show the treat sometimes, especially at first, but treats do not work well as a motivator for behavior. After the first few tries, the dog learns to look for the treat first. Treats are great reinforcers for behavior, though, when the dog gets them _after_ compliance. So you can teach "drop" by showing a treat the first few times, but as soon as you can, you want to give the command and see if the dog will comply without seeing a treat. Then the treat comes out from nowhere to reinforce the compliance.

The dog learns to give up things because it's fun and feels good, whether you happen to have a treat or not.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Now I'm curious... do you have any research that supports the idea of the ability of something like a pig ear to, based on smell, taste, etc. trigger some sort of primal "food is life" urge? It's an interesting theory --- but I'd want to see it supported before personally thinking I know exactly what's going on in the dog's head vs. looking at the behavior itself.


I think your points are well taken. I wouldn't defend the "food is life" as the cause for all guarding, though with food, I find it to be a more helpful way to understand the dog than "bratty" or "dominant." Dogs guard resources they think are precious, and survival is that core value.

I do think guarding is tied to survival instincts, just based on the body language alone. It's only an opinion, not tied to dog or wolf behavioral research, but when I see a dog guard a rawhide, it does seem to say "I need this to survive."

Again, it's not something I'd defend to the death or say is proven in the research, just something that the body language often communicates to me.


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## Salt n Pepper (Sep 3, 2009)

Haha. Pig ears must be like prime rib for dogs.


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