# Is not buying from a "responsible" breeder really that bad?



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Most everyone on here will tell you to pass because the clearances aren't in place. I have a different view. We have had two Goldens come from breeders who didn't do clearances. Both were well taken care of not puppy mills ect. You have to go visit and see the conditions to make sure it is a good place. Chloe was even heavily socialized with kids. Her breeder had five. We had shot records ect. I don't know anything about this breeder but it is necessary to go visit and be very comfortable.


----------



## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

If you already know about clearances (which is a drop in the bucket to making a breeder a responsible & credible one in my opinion) and you have a price limit you won't exceed, no amount of posts is going to sway your decision. That being said, for what you described, I would say that pup should be priced around $300-$400 as the breeder is putting minimal care into their dogs, the rest is pure profit.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Ofa clearances will cost an individual about $500 minimally in most places.

About $200 for hip and elbow xrays and small fee to send in to ofa. 

About 40-50 for eye clearances per year. 

About 35-45 for heart clearance.

For both eyes and heart, again small fees to send in to ofa and be posted publicly.

Assuming that these people own both parent dogs and can expect to sell pups for 1 Grand each and do very minimal stuff with the dogs... and may breed the dogs a couple times a year for a few years... they could afford to invest about a 1000 ahead of time to get those clearances on the dogs. This is important since they may already be breeding strange looking dogs to begin with. &#55357;&#56842; A show of integrity in proving they bare min avoided breeding dogs with hip or elbow dysplasia or with eye or heart defects would make up for whatever else the dogs may lack. And in a lot of these cases, you have bybs breeding dogs that lack quite a lot.... you would be better off adopting.


----------



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Sounds like your mind is made up, so I'll make this short and to the point: Purposefully producing puppies who are at a higher risk of inheriting physical defects which are debilitating and painful to the dog and expensive for the pet owner to deal with is morally and ethically bankrupt. By giving money to a breeder who purposefully breeds Golden Retrievers from dogs who aren't clear for heart, eyes, elbows and hips, and who probably don't have parents and grandparents with clearances, you are every bit as morally and ethically deficient.

It is scientifically proven that puppies from clear parents are statistically less likely to inherit elbow dysplasia and hip dysplasia. Let me give you facts: Two parents with elbow dysplasia have a 42% chance of producing a puppy with elbow dysplasia. Two parents without elbow dysplasia have a 12% chance. Elbow dysplasia comes in different grades, lower grades can be present without the breeder being aware. The clearance needs to be done. Otherwise you are supporting a breeder who is rolling the dice for no good reason.

Read the information for yourself: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Elbow Dysplasia

Surgical repair of an elbow or hip runs about $2000 - $4000 per joint if a dog is a candidate. The surgery and recovery is brutal, weeks of restricted movement (100% crate time, leash walk only) and not having the surgery means a life of pain for the dog. Why in the world would you support a breeder who has no qualms about taking those kind of risks with the puppies she produces? Why would you be willing to put a dog you love through that kind of life? Clearances are no guarantee, but it is a simple thing for a breeder to do and improves the odds for the dog and improves the odds that the puppy family won't have their hearts broken. Seems like a no-brainer to me.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

That^ is it for me, too. These scenarios are different from Bob and Sue who have two Goldens and decide to have a litter.... these are people making puppies deliberately and with the knowledge they are not doing it well or by best practices. For all you know, both parents have ED. VERY painful. VERY expensive to fix if you can. 
Or HD or SAS- which would cause a dog to drop dead with no warning (and SAS is a pretty easy to screen for cardiac condition). Selling these puppies for $1000 when puppies in TN /ATL are selling for $2000 is crazy. I'd say more like $500 would be still a money maker for the "breeder"... 
And these "breeders" are doing the breed such a disservice. It is ethically wrong, nothing right about it. 
There is an ophthalmologist just over the mountain from Manchester in Chattanooga- so a 45 min drive who charges $35 for eye exams. There's a visiting cardiologist -again, just over the mountain from Manchester- who comes to River ER twice a month for $45 cardiac clearances. 
And tons of vets in Chatt who can do OFAs- or go the other way, towards Nashville- in Franklin there's a really good OFA vet (Bernander). He charges $250 for hips and elbows. You'd think these "breeders" would invest $375 with gas money in making sure they are covered on clearances...unless they are worried they won't pass and instead would rather put the burden of cost of future pain on puppy families to deal with, and the poor puppies- it's just (in the words of the Oz gang) morally, ethically, undeniably wrong.


----------



## Mayabear (Aug 26, 2015)

Knowingly purchasing from a breeder who won't do clearances is not ideal, given what nolefan said above. In my case, I purchased from a potential backyard breeder because in spite of a lot of research on the breed itself, the one thing I did not properly do due to ignorance and naivete is research the breeder.

So our Maya does not have the credentials other pedigreed dogs on this website may have. It scares me to be honest, but my wife and I are fully committed to providing her a happy and healthy life. But yes, I have learnt my lesson about breeder research, and what can be considered scrupulous or not. Were I to purchase again, you can bet I will be armed with more information and questions.


----------



## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I would NEVER pay $1000 for a puppy that the parents are not health tested! That is still a lot of money. I would rather pay the $600 or $800 more to stack the decks in my favor. I want a breeder that is knowledgeable and will be there for me and my puppy for life. If you want to go with them, then there really isn't anything we can say to make you change your mind. I would suggest health insurance regardless of where you get your puppy.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

While all I said I firmly believe if I were determined to buy from one of these people it would be from Falkinberg. 
Their bitch has clearances and appears to be conformationally correct (GRACE or Genesis). 
You couldn't pay me to take a pup from the ones in Manchester or Scottsboro. Solid Rocks website is headache inducing and there's no heads nor tails to make of it. They talk about OFA but there appears to be no way to verify without contacting them for registered names. It's my experience that talking the talk and walking the walk are very different things when you see a site with no registered names on it. So there ya go! You have only one real choice that will give you comfort of clearances and reasonable gamble on health out of all those.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Question- why get full AKC registration?
Are you planning to breed or show? If you're planning to show, you need to find the best pedigree you can and cost be ******... and if you are planning to breed- know that unless you get a bitch with a full clearance background, your production will be endangered as well... even if (and I am sure you will) yours gets clearances.


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I guess my family is morally deficient for where we got our dogs. Jake went to the vet twice in nine years for something unrelated to his yearly checkups. 

If your family isn't willing to pay the price from a breeder who does all the health testing please make sure it isn't a puppy mill and the dogs are well taken care of. Do a google search and visit a couple of times. Where we got Chloe everything was good. Yes no clearances but everything else was in place. He even is working with the diabetic association to produce diabetic therapy dogs for them. One more thing is just because you don't get a clearances dog doesn't mean your going to get a sick dog. But you defintly have to be aware of any red flags. Do they produce more then one breed, what kind of conditions are they living in, are the pups socialized. What about shot records. 

I could need to google the breeder your looking at. Dogs without clearances but have good breeders who take good care of them these days will run around $800 to $1000. Prices have gone up. Jake was $350 almost 12 years ago. That would get you a sick and a puppy mill dog today.


----------



## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Sure go for it. And while you're at it, might as well make playing the lottery your retirement plan. And put your life savings on black in Vegas.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

To me there are two acceptable places to get a dog... a rescue/shelter or a reputable breeder. My reason for this is that I would rather not pad the pockets of people breeding indiscriminately who do so for the sole purpose of making money. The vast majority of breed specific rescues are in it for the love of the breed. The vast majority of reputable breeders are in it for the love of the breed. The vast majority of BYBs or HVBs are in it to make money. I don't think people are morally deficient for buying from a BYB but once you know better you do better. My beloved golden from my childhood was from a BYB... it didn't make us love her any less, nor do I look back on her with anything but love. But would I go that route again? No, because I know better now. If you have sticker shock on the price of a puppy from a reputable breeder, my humble suggestion would be to start searching your local golden rescues and shelters for a dog or pup who needs a great home and be prepared to wait for the right dog to come along.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

What is a HVB?


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

And just a moment to address the idea that lack of health clearances don't make a puppy less healthy... the reason that the GRCA recommends Hip, Elbow, Heart and Annual Eye clearances is because doing these clearances reduces the incidence of hereditary diseases in the offspring. No, it doesn't mean you will get a "sick dog" if you buy from a litter without these clearances in place, and the presence of clearances doesn't guarantee a healthy puppy. But it is well documented that you reduce the incidence of these hereditary issues if you have a solid depth of these clearances in the pedigree of the puppy.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Megora said:


> What is a HVB?


High volume breeder.... usually referred to as a "puppy mill" but I don't like that term.


----------



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I see the issue as cost vs value and acceptance of risk.

It sounds like you have already made up your mind so I am not going to change it but perhaps it might help you understand the choice you made.

I get being thrifty and having a budget but thrift is also about value. Where can you make cuts that don't impact value substantially. 

Buying a high quality second hand blue shirt in good condition for $5= thrifty
Buying a good quality blue shirt on clearance for $5= thrifty
Buying a poor quality blue shirt for $5 = not thrifty

Take those same items and change the amounts it is still the same.

Buying a high quality second hand blue shirt in good condition for $7.50 = thrifty
Buying a good quality blue shirt on clearance for $10 =thrifty
Buying a poor quality blue shirt for $5 = not thrifty

We all know a high quality shirt, even used will be a good value and still has good life to it. We all know a new good quality shirt will see you through many wears and offer good value. We also all know that poor quality shirt is likely to fade, pill, stretch out of shape or pop a seam after a few wears.

You are asking is it really so bad to buy a poor quality shirt? No, as long as you pay an appropriate price and have a realistic expectation of the value you are getting. 

If you are expecting that shirt to hold up to the high quality shirt, you are very likely to be really disappointed. Sure, you could be pleasantly surprised that it holds up better than it should but you can't count on it. Is it a better value at half the price, no. It might have more affordable cost initially but it is not a thrifty choice.

I think you may have set your budget but failed to take quality in to consideration. The hard part is quality in fogs is not actually easy to see. Most companion homes just want a head, a color and /or a temperament and that is also all they usually can see. Health certifications are not cake but much more visible than say structure but the value may not seem important until you do loose a dog to SAS or remove an eye or have to replace hips or elbows. 

You are choosing to buy an expensive poor quality blue shirt. I would suggest you get it as cheap as possible and buy insurance.


----------



## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

IMO, getting clearances on a dog is the least expensive thing about breeding. A great, trustworthy, ethical breeder will spend thousands of dollars titling her dogs, will spend countless hours poring over pedigree information trying to find the best match for her bitch (or stud), will spend thousands of dollars on the whelping alone (and even more if there's an issue), and countless sleepless nights with the puppies - and that's not even the half of it. If they can't even afford paying the couple hundred it takes to get clearances and send them in, I have to wonder what other shortcuts they might be taking.

Here are the hips of a 6 month (now 9 month old, if he's still alive) dog from a breeder just like the ones you mentioned. No clearances on any of the dogs, no titles, lady paid a lot too. Even if you can't read hip xrays, I hope you can see how severe these hips are. The puppy couldn't even walk or play or do any of the normal things most 6 month old puppies can do. The lady who posted these xrays can't afford to pay for the surgery (which, like Nolefan said, run between 3-4k dollars per hip or elbow). Last I heard, she was considering putting her dog down. Of course, not every dog from an unscrupulous breeder will end up with hips like this and not all dogs with a history of clearances are guaranteed to be protected against hip dysplasia. But the chances of having bad hips decrease dramatically if there are clearances in place.


----------



## goldenlove7 (May 1, 2017)

Thank you all for your time and your posts. My mind is not made up so I absolutely value sharing your experiences. Maybe my first post wasn't clear. The health and happiness of the animal is really my biggest concern. I would knowingly never purchase a dog who may live in pain or suffer due to poor breeding. I will never purchase from a puppy mill and will walk away from any questionable living conditions when visiting a breeder and have done it in the past. Our plan is on for a pet, never breeding or show. AKC is not particularly important, it's just something about the breeders in my area all emphasize 

Of course, a puppy with all health clearances is ideal. I HAVE spoken with knowledgeable, lovely BYB in the past so I know it can exist. I guess what I was really wondering is whether some of these clearances were necessary, or more of a luxury if you choose to buy a "higher quality" puppy. 

This post has provided a lot of information. I now I'm wondering why it is so hard to find reputable breeders in my area. $1000 for a puppy with no clearances now seems like we are being taken advantage of.


----------



## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

goldenlove7 said:


> I now I'm wondering why it is so hard to find reputable breeders in my area. $1000 for a puppy with no clearances now seems like we are being taken advantage of.


Do you mean those that breed following the recommended protocol?

When it comes to goldens-- maybe any breed-- it's a seller's market, even though the reputable sellers are simply lucky to break even. 

If I were you, I'd consider rethinking your timeline (and obviously, budget). Yes, you might get a puppy sooner than expected if a good breeder's plans change (maybe someone wants to be taken off a waitlist or there are more puppies than expected). But really, the right puppy is worth the wait.

Or, go through a very reputable rescue and find the dog of your dreams that way. There's a local rescue who puts a premium on temperament, and all of their dogs are fostered. I'd suggest something like that.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

The breeder on your list I said was the best of the lot, that would be a safer bet for sure. That would be the one of all of them I would feel like anyone here would find a safe bet as well. 
The others are not worth investing that $$ in, and absolutely buy insurance if you do!


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

goldenlove7 said:


> Thank you all for your time and your posts. My mind is not made up so I absolutely value sharing your experiences. Maybe my first post wasn't clear. The health and happiness of the animal is really my biggest concern. I would knowingly never purchase a dog who may live in pain or suffer due to poor breeding. I will never purchase from a puppy mill and will walk away from any questionable living conditions when visiting a breeder and have done it in the past. Our plan is on for a pet, never breeding or show. AKC is not particularly important, it's just something about the breeders in my area all emphasize
> 
> Of course, a puppy with all health clearances is ideal. I HAVE spoken with knowledgeable, lovely BYB in the past so I know it can exist. I guess what I was really wondering is whether some of these clearances were necessary, or more of a luxury if you choose to buy a "higher quality" puppy.
> 
> This post has provided a lot of information. I now I'm wondering why it is so hard to find reputable breeders in my area. $1000 for a puppy with no clearances now seems like we are being taken advantage of.


You do actually have good reputable careful breeders in your area, assuming you are near Nashville. Lynne Briggs- Cobblestone- she's in Eads. Heike Stroup in Clarksville- PAssion Goldens. Duane Boehm is in Murfreesboro. Maria Franklin is in Hendersonville. Lots of folks- you also might check w Sue McGaverick who is [email protected]- she is the puppy person for the louisville club.


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

goldenlove7 said:


> Thank you all for your time and your posts. My mind is not made up so I absolutely value sharing your experiences. Maybe my first post wasn't clear. The health and happiness of the animal is really my biggest concern. I would knowingly never purchase a dog who may live in pain or suffer due to poor breeding. I will never purchase from a puppy mill and will walk away from any questionable living conditions when visiting a breeder and have done it in the past. Our plan is on for a pet, never breeding or show. AKC is not particularly important, it's just something about the breeders in my area all emphasize
> 
> Of course, a puppy with all health clearances is ideal. I HAVE spoken with knowledgeable, lovely BYB in the past so I know it can exist. I guess what I was really wondering is whether some of these clearances were necessary, or more of a luxury if you choose to buy a "higher quality" puppy.
> 
> This post has provided a lot of information. I now I'm wondering why it is so hard to find reputable breeders in my area. $1000 for a puppy with no clearances now seems like we are being taken advantage of.


Reading your post here. Personally if you feel that the breeder is taking care of the dogs and it is not a puppymill I would do it. Will they be vet checked before bringing home, will you have proof of any vaccines and deworming, do they get played with and socialized.

I remember not that long ago someone on here got a puppy from w very reputable breeder. The puppy died at like 10 weeks from SAS. Not every breeder who doesn't do clearances is a hoorid monster. Mine took back a 8 month old when the person moved and found him a home. He is providing the diabetic association with puppies for diabetic therapy. You would have to ask him why he chooses to not do clearances. His puppies are on a great food when they come home. He charges enough where these puppies are not going to bad people. 

Yes I think the clearances are great and yes I think they should be done. But to scare people that their dog is going to be sick and they are going to have thousands of dollars in vet bills is ridiculous.


----------



## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

The prices I'm seeing for clearances are special reduced price clinics. My girl is from a breeder that does all the clearances. She is a happy, healthy dog with no real behavior problems. She does field, obedience, agility, and tricks.


----------



## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

Cpc1972 said:


> But to scare people that their dog is going to be sick and they are going to have thousands of dollars in vet bills is ridiculous.


It's not a scare technique, it's a real actual thing they might be facing. Don't people looking for a puppy deserve to know all the information available before they go ahead with their purchase? No one said that buying from a reputable breeder will guarantee a healthy puppy with no issues. We're simply saying that the chances of getting a dog with ED or HD is significantly lowered when there's a history of clearances. Again, that's not a scare technique but fact.


----------



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I'm going to take a little different approach... you can do Craigslist or a shabby breeder and take your chances. But if you are willing to pay $1000. this is a pic of my pup. She is just over a year old. She came from dogs that have clearances for DECADES from breeders that compete with their dogs and cost $1500. Good breeders are out there you just have to search them out.

So which is really more important to you and be honest with yourself, the cost or getting it now? Ever heard the expression pay me now or pay me later?


----------



## goldenlove7 (May 1, 2017)

Cpc1972 said:


> goldenlove7 said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you all for your time and your posts. My mind is not made up so I absolutely value sharing your experiences. Maybe my first post wasn't clear. The health and happiness of the animal is really my biggest concern. I would knowingly never purchase a dog who may live in pain or suffer due to poor breeding. I will never purchase from a puppy mill and will walk away from any questionable living conditions when visiting a breeder and have done it in the past. Our plan is on for a pet, never breeding or show. AKC is not particularly important, it's just something about the breeders in my area all emphasize
> ...


Yes, the breeders I was considering will have all age appropriate vaccinations, several dewormings, vet records, proper socialization, and some offer health guarantee for 1-2 years. This includes the fact that they will take the dog back anytime for any reason. There just aren't specific hip, elbow, eye, and heart clearances on them. Who knows why they choose not to do this.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

goldenlove7 said:


> Yes, the breeders I was considering will have all age appropriate vaccinations, several dewormings, vet records, proper socialization, and some offer health guarantee for 1-2 years. This includes the fact that they will take the dog back anytime for any reason. There just aren't specific hip, elbow, eye, and heart clearances on them. Who knows why they choose not to do this.


My concern with not doing health clearances is it is taking big risk. Hip, elbow, heart and annual eye clearances are not done on our dogs just because we all enjoy spending time and money to do them. They are done because, statistically, they reduce the risk of the puppies having certain heritable issues. They are not a luxury, they are the bare minimum that a breeder should be doing before having a litter. I would be more interested in asking the breeder why they bred the litter if they are not willing to do the bare minimum that a breeder should be doing to reduce the risk of heritable diseases.


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

aesthetic said:


> It's not a scare technique, it's a real actual thing they might be facing. Don't people looking for a puppy deserve to know all the information available before they go ahead with their purchase? No one said that buying from a reputable breeder will guarantee a healthy puppy with no issues. We're simply saying that the chances of getting a dog with ED or HD is significantly lowered when there's a history of clearances. Again, that's not a scare technique but fact.


All I am saying is it doesn't mean 100% your dog is going to cost you tons of money. Yes I agree the clearances can reduce that chance. But everytime I read a post that someone posts it reads as if it is guaranteed. I think if you go back and read how it's worded you will see that.


----------



## Altairss (Sep 7, 2012)

Some times people don't do clearances not because they can't afford them but because they want to breed that dog and if they fail those clearances well then they know going in that they are deliberately and with outright purpose breeding a dog that should not be bred. I know a person that did clearances they failed hips with a rating of hip dysplasia and went ahead and bred the dog actually three times and just told people that they did not do clearances on the dog. Since they had done clearances on some dogs I looked her up by name and low and behold. And yes several puppies out of those three litters developed dysplasia.

If your going to purposely bring a living breathing puppy into the world the better question is why would you not do the clearances. Its not that expensive or time consuming and you can save a dog from suffering Why would you NOT do them? My good friend is in about 4000 dollars into two shoulder surgeries and now just found out she may have to do hips? My daughter former 4-H leader just lost a 2 1/2 year old to heart problems that a could have been prevented. When she told the so called breeder the breeder told oh yeah had one like that in the first litter. We bred her again we could give you a discounted puppy out of that one. Some people just don't care they just want the money and leave you with the fall out. Is every puppy from a non reputable person going to cost you? no but it may and it may cost you dearly both financially and mentally. No guarantees but I would rather play it safe then be as sorry. its always up to you what you buy just be prepared to live with your choices and I recommend insurance.


----------



## MollyD (Jun 5, 2011)

People who buy from backyard breeders are doing a disservice to the breed and to those who are trying very hard to better the breed and keep it healthy. Why NOT spend a little more and buy from a reputable breeder instead of justifying why it would be okay to buy from one who is not? Wouldn't you sleep better at night knowing you did the best you could to find a happy, healthy puppy? It's not all about health clearances. If this puppy is going to be your companion for the next 10+ years then why not choose a breeder who has spent many hours making sure you get not only a HEALTHY puppy, but one with the sweet Golden temperament? How do you know the parents are good examples of the breed if they haven't done anything? I want to make sure my family has a good experience with as little health AND behavioral issues as possible. If people stopped supporting BYB who do not do health clearances then maybe it would encourage them to try it. It's amazing the temperament and structural differences between a well-bred Golden and one who is not.


----------



## BrianO (Apr 7, 2016)

Prism Goldens said:


> You also might check w Sue McGaverick who is [email protected]- she is the puppy person for the louisville club.


Sue is a great resource. Check with her. She has contacts well outside the Louisville area. She really helped me when I didn't know what I didn't know. She helped us find our pup.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

goldenlove7 said:


> Yes, the breeders I was considering will have all age appropriate vaccinations, several dewormings, vet records, proper socialization, and some offer health guarantee for 1-2 years. This includes the fact that they will take the dog back anytime for any reason. There just aren't specific hip, elbow, eye, and heart clearances on them. Who knows why they choose not to do this.


The one does do clearances (Falkenburg). I found all 4 on both her older girls including the one having puppies this spring, so if she's in the same ballpark- or even more- she'd be a better choice than the others. Someone else said prices quoted were at clinics- the ones I posted were at the actual practitioners - a cardio comes to River twice a month in Chatt, and Larotta is in Chatt 5 days a week doing eyes. These are not discounted clinics.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

goldenlove7 said:


> Yes, the breeders I was considering will have all age appropriate vaccinations, several dewormings, vet records, proper socialization, and some offer health guarantee for 1-2 years. This includes the fact that they will take the dog back anytime for any reason. There just aren't specific hip, elbow, eye, and heart clearances on them.


Basically... some of these people you are looking at will do 1 or 2 rounds of shots before you bring your pup home. Most only do 1 round of shots at home. 

Dewormings are as needed for a lot of people. But puppies may get dewormed once or so if the breeder thinks there might be a little coccidia going through the litter. 

Vet records - might simply be the stickers for the vaccines. Which you can take to the vet. If this is regarding the puppies. 

Proper socialization - is whatever that it for the breeder. Some people do an awful lot of stuff. Some do less. 

Health guarantees - are basically them telling you that if you have problems with your dog, they will take the puppy back. Not all of them will give you full money back and you may find that the guarantee is worthless because unless you are a total jerk, you are not going to return a 8 month old pup that has already bonded with you because he's a physical disaster because of both hips and elbows being bad, or whatever else may be going on. 

A lot of breeders also write the health guarantees up in other ways to ensure that very few people actually can claim anything on them without jumping through hoops.

For example - some may require you feed a specific food, keep the dogs under a certain weight, neuter by a certain age, and do full OFA's etc to prove your dog has hip or elbow dysplasia. And even then, you only get 1/2 of what you paid back and you have to return your puppy to them for them to flip to another home. 

Most breeders rehome dogs that are returned to them - and some have a lot of people asking at all times for adult dogs who are cases like this. The better the breeder you go with... the more assurance you have that the puppy that you are throwing away because of a problem or change of life problem that comes up in your own life will be placed with extra care to ensure the next home is a forever home. 

*I decided to remove all the blah-blah stuff that I experienced with our first dog. Bottom line is that I do believe that breeders who progressively work towards bettering what they have by being very selective concerning health (and other things) are worth the wait and extra money.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

By the way - these are discounted rates for OFA's. 

The ones I listed were full price.

I believe I'm OK to share since this was posted publicly elsewhere. I just about fell out of my chair when I saw this.


----------



## G-bear (Oct 6, 2015)

While I am not a breeder and never plan to be I have been planning to have Bailey's hips/elbows/heart and eyes checked. Bailey has been neutered so obviously breeding him is not in the plans. He is from a breeder who did no clearances and, frankly, I want them done for my piece of mind as well as if he potentially has problems so that I can do whatever might be necessary to minimize the impact on him. I had the appointment for hip/elbows scheduled for March but had to cancel when DH was diagnosed with cancer. I am very close to Glenwood City and am curious if this event is only for breeders? It is an awful lot less expensive than the cost I will have to pay to have Bailey's hips and elbows done in the Twin Cities. Anybody know if I could take Bailey on Sept. 10th?


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

I will bet that anyone that tells you to go ahead and buy from a breeder that doesn't do clearances has never had a dysplastic dog. Because if they had, they would know the absolute heartache felt every time you see your best friend struggling to walk just around the block. They would know about crying when you watch your dog trying to run and play with the other dogs but can't because of the pain...so they just give up and lie down looking so defeated. 

They would know how gut wrenching and scary it is to have to wait for the results of the blood work that has to be done every 3 months. Why every three months? It's to make sure their liver is still functioning properly after having to take medicine that is known to cause severe liver damage. But they have to take it so they can walk.

I do the absolute best for Chance that I can. But I know it will never be enough. He deals with pain every single day of his life. He is the most gentle, loving being I have ever known and I wish every day that I could take his pain away. Even if it's just enough time for him to walk around the block without having to stop every few houses or to be able to experience running with other dogs until he's too tired to run anymore, not because of his pain.

So please support breeders that do what's best for the puppies they produce. And that's giving them the best possible chance at a pain free life by doing clearances. Is it 100%? No, of course not. But it will sure stack the deck in the puppies' favor.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

G-bear said:


> While I am not a breeder and never plan to be I have been planning to have Bailey's hips/elbows/heart and eyes checked. Bailey has been neutered so obviously breeding him is not in the plans. He is from a breeder who did no clearances and, frankly, I want them done for my piece of mind as well as if he potentially has problems so that I can do whatever might be necessary to minimize the impact on him. I had the appointment for hip/elbows scheduled for March but had to cancel when DH was diagnosed with cancer. I am very close to Glenwood City and am curious if this event is only for breeders? It is an awful lot less expensive than the cost I will have to pay to have Bailey's hips and elbows done in the Twin Cities. Anybody know if I could take Bailey on Sept. 10th?


I went to this last year. Anyone can go. I did eyes and hearts, and had an appointment for hips and elbows. They were running so far behind on hips and elbows that I just left, so if you go, get there early.

My go to hip and elbow guy only charges $195 + the OFA fee.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

G-bear said:


> While I am not a breeder and never plan to be I have been planning to have Bailey's hips/elbows/heart and eyes checked. Bailey has been neutered so obviously breeding him is not in the plans. He is from a breeder who did no clearances and, frankly, I want them done for my piece of mind as well as if he potentially has problems so that I can do whatever might be necessary to minimize the impact on him. I had the appointment for hip/elbows scheduled for March but had to cancel when DH was diagnosed with cancer. I am very close to Glenwood City and am curious if this event is only for breeders? It is an awful lot less expensive than the cost I will have to pay to have Bailey's hips and elbows done in the Twin Cities. Anybody know if I could take Bailey on Sept. 10th?


There is contact info on that great clinic sheet- what great pricing! Call and ask- but I bet you are good to go.


----------



## Wolfeye (Sep 15, 2015)

The rich tend to see things through very different eyes than the poor, that much is certain. My brother-in-law's girlfriend does high level Portuguese Water Dog breeding and showing. One of these high-priced dogs went berserk and savaged my brother-in-law's arm. So much for breeding and money, eh? Amazingly, that dog wasn't put down. Why? The consortium of owners (yep, none of the owners were rich enough to own the dog outright) couldn't reach a consensus. Eventually I believe he was neutered. 

If you have to be rich to own a golden retriever, life pretty much sucks, but keep in mind that at every single level, dogs are a want, not a need. You have to have some disposable income to afford everything a dog needs, from shots to food to training and boarding. A lot of dogs bought at bargain prices suffer not so much from their breeding as much as the fact that the owners can't afford basic health care. They often lack knowledge of dog behavior and physiology and that can lead to problems down the line. Poor food (again, bargain prices) leads to poor health and exacerbates any genetic predispositions. 

In the end, no dog purchase is without risk. I'd like to say that the more you spend on a dog the better the health of the dog will be, but that's simply not the case. You're playing percentages, and you'd probably be surprised to find out how close those percentages are. Whatever. Please be sure you have the time and money to give whatever dog you get the best life he can live. In the end, mutt, BYB, or show dog, that's what you should be willing to invest. They give us love. Your job is both to return that love and to give them every chance in the world to live as long and as healthy a life as fate, and genetics, will permit.


----------



## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

If you truly don't want to spend more than $1000, and that's fine, why not rescue a Golden who has been surrendered. Already born, may or may not have clearances (probably won't), but you won't be supporting and encouraging a breeder who is not bettering the breed and trying to make sure the dogs they produce won't have heritable issues. No, clearances are no guarantee. No one here has ever stated that. It simply ups the odds. There are Golden rescues in most major cities with lots of sweet dogs that need forever homes. Some are pups, some are older.


----------



## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

MollyD said:


> It's amazing the temperament and structural differences between a well-bred Golden and one who is not.


I have had 4 BYB goldens (1 now) and have 1 from a reputable breeder. I can tell you that my 4 BYB had wonderful temperaments. Although my breeder boy is also wonderful, he does have some traits that I don't care for; none of which were exhibited by my other boys. Don't get me wrong, although I have purchased BYB dogs in the past, I will no longer do so. But this statement is unfair as all BYB dogs should not be painted with the same brush.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Wolfeye said:


> The rich tend to see things through very different eyes than the poor, that much is certain. My brother-in-law's girlfriend does high level Portuguese Water Dog breeding and showing. One of these high-priced dogs went berserk and savaged my brother-in-law's arm. So much for breeding and money, eh? Amazingly, that dog wasn't put down. Why? The consortium of owners (yep, none of the owners were rich enough to own the dog outright) couldn't reach a consensus. Eventually I believe he was neutered.
> 
> If you have to be rich to own a golden retriever, life pretty much sucks, but keep in mind that at every single level, dogs are a want, not a need. You have to have some disposable income to afford everything a dog needs, from shots to food to training and boarding. A lot of dogs bought at bargain prices suffer not so much from their breeding as much as the fact that the owners can't afford basic health care. They often lack knowledge of dog behavior and physiology and that can lead to problems down the line. Poor food (again, bargain prices) leads to poor health and exacerbates any genetic predispositions.



The types of people out there who talk about others need to check their own disposable income and what they spend money on readily and what they balk at. There's a lot of people out there who whine about being poor, but they have new cars, they have expensive cell phones, they have expensive clothes, they go on vacations every year, they have been overseas, they have been to Mexico, they do a lot of other stuff with their money... and it's "other" stuff that they take months to save up for, even when these pleasures are fleeting and most cases limited to a very short time. Case in point, travel - there's people out there that sink a pretty huge amount of money on travel, and it lasts only a week or so. 

How about the major expenses people incur over Christmas? It's INSANE what people buy for each other either big ticket items or cumulatively.  

There's also people who indulge in expensive vices - and don't really think too much about it because they never budget.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wolfeye said:


> Your job is both to return that love and to give them every chance in the world to live as long and as healthy a life as fate, and genetics, will permit.


And to purchase from breeders that do the same.


----------



## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

It's a lot more than just the clearances choosing a reputable breeder. It's the relationship you'll develop with the breeder and the true compassion and concern they have for their puppies. 

We paid top dollar for a non-clearanced puppy based purely on ignorance on our parts. There isn't/wasn't a relationship with our breeder then or now. Even when our puppy became deathly ill, the same day we brought her home, it was a refund of our cost and a "we can take her back, but we don't have the ability to treat her". This left us with some huge decisions that ultimately cost us thousands. She checked in for awhile and went silent as we continued to pay for treatment and worried immensely over our 8-week old "vet cleared" puppy. 

So, while we can say, "I have a perfectly healthy dog(s) from a BYB, the truth is, it doesn't affect you until it does. It's not worth the risk & is unfair to the dog.


----------



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

So are you dead set on getting a puppy? There are several of us on the forum that have purchased older puppies from breeders. My girl was 11 months and cost me $800. from healthy parents, with generations of clearances.

As you can tell many people and breeders on this forum hope you won't support people that throw 2 dogs together simply for the purpose of making their house payments or buy a new car. The people providing the advice given truly want the breed to be healthier and doing clearances is the way to do this.

If you choose to support this thinking then check the rescues in your area, they have puppies too. You will then be saving a life and not contributing to someones vacation fund.


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Laurie said:


> I have had 4 BYB goldens (1 now) and have 1 from a reputable breeder. I can tell you that my 4 BYB had wonderful temperaments. Although my breeder boy is also wonderful, he does have some traits that I don't care for; none of which were exhibited by my other boys. Don't get me wrong, although I have purchased BYB dogs in the past, I will no longer do so. But this statement is unfair as all BYB dogs should not be painted with the same brush.


I totally agree. My girl was so confident when we brought her home. I keep hearing how it's such a adjustment for them. My girl had none. Put herself to bed the very first night. Never whined at night. Now she is two she has a perfect temperment. She has a off switch when you need her to be but would be up for hours of playtime or walks if you needed her to. Isn't destructive and hasn't been gated when left alone since five or six months.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

goldenlove7 said:


> Hello! This is my first post so goes easy on me.  A little background, my husband I are looking for our first Golden as a married couple. We realistically will not spend $2000 on a puppy for various reasons. One reason being that some of our rescue animals over the years have been the best pets we've ever had and we've had expensive cats and dogs from responsible, thorough breeders with many health and behavioral issues.



Well, it's your decision. 

A lot of what goes into making that decision includes your lifestyle and what you want out of the dog. Generally speaking you get what you pay for.


----------



## G-bear (Oct 6, 2015)

Thanks Tahnee and Prism. I am going to call tomorrow and if they will allow me to bring Bailey I will fill out all of the paperwork and get everything done there. I will bring a book (as suggested) and a bunch of toys to keep Bailey happy. I think it will be well worth the wait to have everything done at once for such a reasonable cost because even if Bailey's breeder was not responsible I want to be a responsible owner. Thank you both,I really appreciate the response


----------



## goldenlove7 (May 1, 2017)

I will absolutely be looking into the breeders recommended and really am grateful for the input. I had contacted Cobblestone and Starfire several times without a response. I was thinking a puppy from a professional breeder would run more like $2000 and I looked at some that ran near the $3000 range. $1500 is reasonable especially in comparison to spending $1000 and getting so much less in return. We are totally open to rescue and in the future would love to rescue adult dogs in the years to come, but are set on a puppy for our first Golden. It's extremely difficult to find any Golden puppy that needs to be rescued but I look daily.

You all have given me so much to think about. I hadn't even considered the idea that some breeders might purposely not do the clearances because they know they may fail them and frankly, do not care. That is terrifying to me. I naively assumed they just didn't know any better. I certainly do not want to contribute to anyone who could produce a dog who would suffer. I thought there were BYB who breed healthy dogs responsibly for the price range we were looking at and that the breeders who offer clearances were more like show or breeder quality. Glad I made this post.

Also, thinking of you all who have had dogs suffer with health concerns. It breaks my heart for them and you. My family's cat passed away at the age of 13 last fall from kidney failure. I hadn't considered the possibility of poor breeding playing a role. Now I wonder.... losing her so unexpectedly tore us apart. Thank you all.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

There are no responsible breeders in the TN area who charge $3k for puppies. I am sure of that. So if you find that price tag, assume they are riding the EC bandwagon and are not responsible ethical breeders!
Starfire- Maria Franklin- doesn't breed often. But I'm surprised Lynne Briggs isn't replying to your query. Maybe make another one and use one of our names! Lynne has a litter or two every year. 
I'm glad it is terrifying to you that they aren't doing clearances on purpose- because really, in this day and time no one is in a bubble- you can bet they all DO know what the bare minimum clearances are. 
If you can do Atlanta, I know of several litters- one being whelped today- but they are probably in the $1800-2000 range.


----------



## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

There are also several breeders in WV. I didn't see that state listed in your original post. No idea if any of them have litters, though.

http://www.agrcwv.org/agrcwv_website_008.htm


----------

