# Breeders: Would you place your dog as a service dog candidate?



## Guiding Golden (May 27, 2012)

I'm disabled and currently partnered with a four year old Golden Retriever owner trained service dog. I've had him since he was 11 weeks old and he has been working as my service dog for almost two years now.

Within the next year or so, I'll be seeking out a candidate to be Bradley's successor. I've found mixed reactions, among breeders, to the prospect of their dogs with disabled individuals who plan to train the dog as a service dog for themselves. 

Some owner trainers prefer to start out with puppies, while others prefer to seek out more mature dogs who have been retired from conformation.

My preference is for starting with a puppy, especially since I'm very interested in getting involved with conformation with my next service dog. (For those of you who are concerned about working an intact service dog, it is actually fairly common for owner trainers to do this successfully.) 

So, if you are a breeder, what are your thoughts on placing your dogs as service dog candidates with private individuals (not service dog programs)? Would you be open to the idea of donating a dog to an owner trainer?

Thanks in advance for your input


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I would have less issue with a dog going directly to the person. I would NOT place a dog with an agency where I would have no control over where the dog went. I would have lots of questions and my biggest concern would be what happens to dog after he/she is retired from working.... I also want to know if the person can't afford the dog then what happens with vet care and all of that... In other words the person would have to meet the same requirements as all of my other puppy people. 

That having been said I have had a hearing dog myself... so I understand the importance


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## Guiding Golden (May 27, 2012)

I neglected to add that one of the risks involved in placing a dog, as a service dog candidate, is that, should the dog not work out as a service dog, not all people with disabilities are able to keep more than one dog and would need to find another dog to train. This means that they would likely have to return the dog to the breeder. I know many breeders are worried about that prospect and would love input about breeders' feelings on the subject.


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## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

I don't think I would want to place a pup of mine with a private owner/trainer if it was to be a potential service dog - a guide dog in particular. I believe it is much better to obtain a trained adult dog from a professional organisation. 
I mentioned in another post that in England guide dogs for the blind primarily come from specifically bred puppies and the Royal National Institute for the Blind has a comprehensive breeding programme of its own which supplies the majority of their potential guide dogs from proven dams and sires which they own. These puppies once adult and trained are matched and allocated to their partners *without charge* and the Institute has a life-long interest and committment to the dog. When the dog's working life is over there are options which will always take into account the best interests of the dog.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I would not feel comfortable with sending a pup to a home that may or may not end up being a forever home. I don't have a problem with the dog doing the work itself, but I would have concerns about training methods, and the may or may not work out and may or may not have a forever home is a huge problem to me. Considering that, then no, I probably would not be willing to place a puppy in that home.


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## Guiding Golden (May 27, 2012)

Do those of you who would not place a dog, based on the risk of the dog not working out have a right of first refusal clause in your contract? How would you handle it if a pet dog could no longer stay with the owner? There's always a risk of that happening.

As far as getting a fully trained dog from a guide dog school or other service dog program, one cannot assume that this is always an option. Most programs will not train for multiple disabilities and others charge as much as $14,000+, without any additional support.

Would it not speak volumes for your breeding stock to consist of a successful service dog?

As far as training methods go, this would certainly be a concern for any buyer- whether the dog will be a pet, performance, working dog or otherwise.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Guiding Golden said:


> I neglected to add that one of the risks involved in placing a dog, as a service dog candidate, is that, should the dog not work out as a service dog, *not all people with disabilities are able to keep more than one dog* and would need to find another dog to train. This means that they would likely have to return the dog to the breeder. I know many breeders are worried about that prospect and would love input about breeders' feelings on the subject.


If the person can only have one dog, I'm just curious as to what would happen to the "old" service dog when it can no longer can preform the duties needed and a younger dog comes in to take it's place?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

A client of mine raised a guiding eyes dog.. When he could no longer do his job, the dog came home...


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

There is a difference in motivations. 

In the average pet family they are not going into getting a puppy with the idea that it may or may not work out and gee if it doesn't work out I will send him/her back or gee when I can't use this dog anymore I will send him/her back. There is a big difference between taking a dog back in an emergency (which I have done) vs. DONATING a dog to a home that you know at the beginning may be a temporary situation and that the likelihood of getting the dog back at some point in his life is very high. Either because the pup didn't work out or because they are older and no longer working well and then trying to place an older dog. 

My dogs are not "stock". I have plenty of homes and a waiting list and my responsibility is to the puppy first and foremost. My goal is to screen families and place puppies into forever homes. Yes emergencies happen and occasionally you might get a pup back. I personally have gotten one sick pup back but the others are all happily in their homes. Having a working service dog does nothing for my breeding program or my kennels reputation. Having working gundogs does, and happy healthy puppies does. 

I had a hand in bringing the puppies into the world and it is my responsibility to find them the best homes that I possibly can and a temporary home is not what I view to be in the best interest of the puppies.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Within the next year or so, I'll be seeking out a candidate to be Bradley's successor. I've found mixed reactions, among breeders, to the prospect of their dogs with disabled individuals who plan to train the dog as a service dog for themselves.


Just another question here - and I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, keep in mind that my only exposure to service dogs are those that are in training (I know somebody who breeds and trains labs for service) and from a distance watching those who are working. 

Why are you retiring your dog at 5? 

With the amount of training that goes into a golden retriever, they are only reliable and SOLID when they are 2-3. So you are putting all that training into a dog for a mere 2 years of work? 

And how are you going to get by without an actual working dog helping you for the next 2 years?


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## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

One of the things that I noticed in your post Guilding Golden is that you are looking to do conformation with your next dog as well as having a multi-purpose service/guiding dog and your dog would likely be an *intact* (?male or female?) owner trained by yourself. To be fair I believe being intact could create a problem for a "professisonal" guide dog (not through any fault of its own, but merely because of the external things it will be expected to effectively cope with working as a guide dog). An intact female will, of course, also have regular periods when she is in season. Also, I have always thought that with a working dog/service dog appearance is a secondary factor - first and foremost is the suitability/ability of the dog to do the work for which it is been trained. 
I hope you will not take offence but it is very rare that anybody will finally find or achieve in a dog all the qualitites and abilities to fulfil everything that an owner would like it to with it - i.e. pet, multi-purpose service dog, show dog. (A rare thing imo). Indeed I believe very few professional trainers take on such a challenge, let alone the average "pet" owner training their dog. Very often I believe it is a case of "horses for courses". Secondary abilities are usually a happy incidental bonus. 
I also believe that all dogs themselves have "needs" requirements which we, as their owners and trainers must provide if the dog is to be a happy as a dog in its own right. They are not expected to be there, available and suitable to fulfil the needs of the people who have possession of them.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

kwhit said:


> If the person can only have one dog, I'm just curious as to what would happen to the "old" service dog when it can no longer can preform the duties needed and a younger dog comes in to take it's place?


I have a family friend who used to take in retired service dog for their golden years.

My parents have a neighbor who are puppy raisers and they did take a puppy they raised back after it could no longer be a service animal.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

What is the typically age to retire a service animal? 

Guilding Golden- You said your dog is 4 now. If you got a new puppy today your current service dog would only be 6 when that dog is 2. Is only 4 year careers typical?


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I have heard that it is very hard to have a dog in conformation and in obedience at the same time. Partly because a conformation dog cannot sit in the ring when the handler stops, so people get the titles on the conformation and then continue with obedience later, then training the dog to sit while heeling.

I know in puppy classes, the conformation puppies were trained differently.

Will being trained for service and conformation be possible for the very reasons listed above?


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## Guiding Golden (May 27, 2012)

I operate an organization of over 2,300 service dog handlers who network, as an online community. I personally know several handlers of various breeds who compete in obedience, conformation, agility, schutzhund, herding, working as therapy dogs and more. Their dogs are also wonderful service dogs. 

Service dogs are acutely aware of the difference between working mode, performance mode and off-duty mode. It's not difficult to teach the dogs to distinguish between what they are to do under certain circumstances.

I would be working an intact male, if I were to do conformation. My current service dog was intact until he was almost three and was working during that time.

My time frame is based on an expectation of retiring Bradley when he's about eight years old, provided he's willing and able to work at that age. Any overlap in time between my current service dog working and his successor would not be an issue for us. I plan to get a successor dog as soon as the right one comes along, and hope that that will happen within the next year and a half or so.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

cubbysan said:


> I have heard that it is very hard to have a dog in conformation and in obedience at the same time. Partly because a conformation dog cannot sit in the ring when the handler stops, so people get the titles on the conformation and then continue with obedience later, then training the dog to sit while heeling.


Anyone who tries to use that as an excuse just plain isn't a very good dog trainer. It's not very difficult to teach a dog a stand signal/command.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *cubbysan*
> _I have heard that it is very hard to have a dog in conformation and in obedience at the same time. Partly because a conformation dog cannot sit in the ring when the handler stops, so people get the titles on the conformation and then continue with obedience later, then training the dog to sit while heeling._





Loisiana said:


> Anyone who tries to use that as an excuse just plain isn't a very good dog trainer. It's not very difficult to teach a dog a stand signal/command.


It's a common excuse though... even though I somewhat think it's not even denting the real reason why conformation people don't always get into obedience. The focus for the dog is completely different. The dogs don't always transition well from "look at me!!!!" to "I'm looking only at mom".


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

there are many who still believe that a show dog can't sit... I know that my dogs show and compete in rally and obedience so yes the dog can learn different skills. 
A friend of mine uses her dog as a service dog and at the same time has shown her to her championship from her motorized chair they are a great team. However this dog is not required to be able to guide her, and the job of the dog is to open doors, retrieve things etc. it totally depends on the job of the dog... 

but from that aspect a service dog can be shown as well.... however it can be a challenge and especially for a guide dog I would wonder how that could be accomplished... with the issue of running the ring... or hiring a handler which would be possible. I would also wonder what kind of damage the harness would do to the coat... most of us who show our goldens don't have them wear collars very often at all due to coat damage... but that wouldn't even be the issue for the original question. The original question really has nothing to do with whether they were going to show or not.


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