# I don't want a show dog, I just want a pet



## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Think i may print these aritcles out and use them at work!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

great article, thanks!


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

That is a great article. Thank you for posting it.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Good article, thanks.


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## JessCDoyle (May 21, 2013)

As much as I agree, I disagree too due to how I acquired Laika. as I was planning on going the reputable breeder route and would've easily agreed to their terms and price, but then I heard a sister of a friend couldn't keep a female pup of 8 weeks. She was from a good, clean BYB who breeds one golden female a year or so. The intended owner couldn't keep her due to her allergies and so, she needed a home, with no cost for the dog but just the crate reimbursement was asked. Everything else such a toys and water and food bowls and food came with her as well. 

I'm aware she may have health problems, as most pets do in the future. Maybe she might have more than if I stuck with my plan and rejected her for one that came with papers. But she was rescued by myself and my boyfriend who are willing to put in the time and cost if necessary to make sure she leads the happiest and healthiest life she can, including trying her at field or agility later on as a hobby, despite her breeding. 

She's a wonderful family dog who displays all the same personality and temperament of what a golden should be and I can't love her any less. 

I guess I'm just tired of now after adjusting to being a new puppy owner, to hear people make extreme judgments on one side or the other. If you either get yours from a breeder, there are those who will look down on you for not "saving a life". If you don't get one from a breeder, you're a bad / cheap person and support puppy mills. It's exhausting having to explain myself. 


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

JessCDoyle said:


> As much as I agree, I disagree too due to how I acquired Laika. as I was planning on going the reputable breeder route and would've easily agreed to their terms and price, but then I heard a sister of a friend couldn't keep a female pup of 8 weeks. She was from a good, clean BYB who breeds one golden female a year or so. The intended owner couldn't keep her due to her allergies and so, she needed a home, with no cost for the dog but just the crate reimbursement was asked. Everything else such a toys and water and food bowls and food came with her as well.
> 
> I'm aware she may have health problems, as most pets do in the future. Maybe she might have more than if I stuck with my plan and rejected her for one that came with papers. But she was rescued by myself and my boyfriend who are willing to put in the time and cost if necessary to make sure she leads the happiest and healthiest life she can, including trying her at field or agility later on as a hobby, despite her breeding.
> 
> ...


No, no, no. I think you're misunderstanding the point of the article. The article is NOT saying don't rescue. And I know I, for one, do not believe rescuing is a bad thing. I think rescuing is an amazing thing. But it IS saying that if you want a specific breed and everything that the breed is supposed to be, then buy from a reputable breeder who is breeding to better the breed. Because if you try to cut corners, you won't necessarily be getting all the true qualities of the breed, and you will be supporting someone who is NOT breeding to better the breed. That is different from rescuing. 

That was my understanding of it anyway. Please don't take any offence - there was definitely none intended.


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## JessCDoyle (May 21, 2013)

Sweet Girl said:


> No, no, no. I think you're misunderstanding the point of the article. The article is NOT saying don't rescue. And I know I, for one, do not believe rescuing is a bad thing. I think rescuing is an amazing thing. But it IS saying that if you want a specific breed and everything that the breed is supposed to be, then buy from a reputable breeder who is breeding to better the breed. Because if you try to cut corners, you won't necessarily be getting all the true qualities of the breed, and you will be supporting someone who is NOT breeding to better the breed. That is different from rescuing.
> 
> That was my understanding of it anyway. Please don't take any offence - there was definitely none intended.


I found from the article that essentially there is no "middle ground". It's either breeder, or rescue - no chances for well organized, clean and affordable BYB like where my girl came from. There's a good chance that none of those dogs are bred for a specific look or physical attributes, and their price tag shows that - but their temperaments and personalities are perfect, and the love and care given to those dogs by the owner is amazing, and although maybe not quite the same setup or early training as a reputable breeder and what they may offer, it can be comparable -If you do your research, go to the breeders place and inspect and watch closely. It's not just the money either, but time and availability of puppies and how that coincides with when you can take time off work. 

I just think people tend to generalize quite a bit and maybe because I had gone against my plan of going to a breeder, I can sympathize with those who didn't because it can quickly turn into an extreme judgmental situation. 


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## JessCDoyle (May 21, 2013)

But yes I do agree that by going to a reputable breeder you will get a dog that not only has a great temperament but a personality that matches the owner and lifestyle. Which is why I will go to one for the next pup as my boyfriend gets more interested in hunting and such.. 

Sorry to rant, just hits a little close to home because I was hoping to read exactly what the title of it implied and found it to be the opposite. 


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Actually the article says to not give money for a backyard bred dog, which you didn't.
It does say if you don't care about breed, go to a shelter. If you want a certain breed but don't really need a specific trait (ie:hunting, showing...) go to a rescue. In my opinion, you rescued a dog.
The article also says that BYB dogs can be great pets. It just says to not put money in the pockets of people that aren't breeding with the welfare of the breed in mind.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I will say that my firt dog was from a BYB and I wouldn't have traded her for the best bred dog in the world.


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## JessCDoyle (May 21, 2013)

Jennifer1 said:


> Actually the article says to not give money for a backyard bred dog, which you didn't.
> It does say if you don't care about breed, go to a shelter. If you want a certain breed but don't really need a specific trait (ie:hunting, showing...) go to a rescue. In my opinion, you rescued a dog.
> The article also says that BYB dogs can be great pets. It just says to not put money in the pockets of people that aren't breeding with the welfare of the breed in mind.


But how else are you supposed to acquire a pup, which can make a great pet, from a BYB if you don't pay (and therefore support) for it? There's another golden that a friend has who came from the same BYB at a year old and from the whole experience I would have no problem referring those who don't want a "show dog" there. Again they are not bred to "further the breed" and bring out sought after physical traits for a show dog per say, but offer quality family dogs of good temperament. So to hand over money for a BYBred dog like so, is that acceptable or is it all or nothing? 


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

JessCDoyle said:


> But how else are you supposed to acquire a pup, which can make a great pet, from a BYB if you don't pay (and therefore support) for it? There's another golden that a friend has who came from the same BYB at a year old and from the whole experience I would have no problem referring those who don't want a "show dog" there. Again they are not bred to "further the breed" and bring out sought after physical traits for a show dog per say, but offer quality family dogs of good temperament. So to hand over money for a BYBred dog like so, is that acceptable or is it all or nothing?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Your saying it yourself here..they are NOT furthering or bettering the breed. Why risk it? Why even think that its ok?? Some people get too caught up in the emotions of such articles/blogs/threads whatever because they have a BYB dog. My first golden was from a BYB. I was 15 at the time and I did know about reputable breeders but only had limited funds. I should have saved even more. My BYB turned into a HUGE puppy mill..breeding goldens, berners, havanese, poodles and doodles of all types. At the time I got my golden she had four adult goldens and a jack russell. I helped lined her pockets so she could continue and get even bigger. That still bugs me to this day. I am not saying that I loved my dog any less or "viewed" her in a different light..but i did have some troubles with my girl..not bad so I got lucky. Others are not, and I truly hope that you or anyone else who has one never has to deal with health issues. For me I took as a learning experience and will never go that route again. I will rescue from shelter/breed specific rescues or if someone needs to rehome one. Many of those are more than likely BYB but I dont care..i wasnt the one who intially purchased the dog (which sounds like what you did). My Lilly from an awesome reputable breeder has been the best experience all around so far. This article is again bringing to light that WE, us humans, shouldnt settle for anything less than a reputable breeder OR rescue a dog. Period!


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I understand what you are saying, but I would personally say there is more to it than that.
Well bred dogs have more than a show/working pedigree. They have clearances going back for generations. IMO that is what the pet dog owner is really paying for. Out of any litter it's lucky to get 1 puppy that is show quality, the rest are "pet" quality. What you are paying for is a statistically better chance to not be having to shell out money for hereditary diseases later in life.
Like I said, Bear was my heart dog, I would not have traded her for anything in the world. But she needed a $1000 shoulder surgery at 7 months old. That + her $350 cost made her more expensive than well bred Kenzie! Granted there are no guarantees, but Kenzie's genes are in her favor.
I would personally say that if you can't put off dog ownership for a few months to save up for the price of a well bred dog, than maybe you should get a rescue or adopt. That will be similar or cheaper than a BYB. And like I said, I had to shell out more money for Bear than what I paid for Kenzie. And I got off lucky, that same breeder ended up with puppies with some pretty severe heart issues-a friend of mine got one that died at 6 months old-they knew it had SAS when they took it home, another coworker bought it and didn't want to put her kids through that so she gave him to my friends.
And by "you", I mean it generally, not you specifically


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I would only like to point out that the only reason *any* breed exists is through years if not generations or dedicated, reputable breeders. If you like the traits of any breed they are there because Breeders put them there. My issue with BYB's is with the *breeder*, never the dog. I would never condemn a dog because of where they came from and yes, good dogs can come out of the worst beginnings.

But what I never understand is when this forum which (whether we want it or not, whether we asked for it or not) has a responsibility to educate the general public on how to purchase a puppy, discusses the merits of buying from a reputable breeder, we digress to a very personal some time emotional response to general education/persuasive information.

This thread because of the title will probably be looked at by not only members, but lurkers and the general public. So, I would say to anyone looking for a puppy to please research and support a reputable breeder. One who health screens the parents, grandparents and on back for hip Dysplasia, elbow Dysplasia, heart issues by a cardiologist, and eye problems annually. We have a lot of scary and expensive to treat health issues in the breed. This is a breeder who is trying to give your puppy the best chance (the test do not gaurentee) for a long, healthy active life. Support a breeder who will take back your puppy for any reason at any time so more dogs do not end up in shelters or rescues. Support a breeder who is out there competing to prove that their dogs have a real contribution to make the breed rather that just to make puppies no matter their intention.

If you choose to support or have supported a BYB, I wish you and your puppy a long full healthy life. I encourage you to join the forum and share our love of all things Golden. Because no matter where your dog is from, it is your dog, it is a good dog, and we love to support all Goldens even if we don't support the breeder.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

First, I really like the article. It summarizes content from many GRF threads.

I'm a "pet person" myself and our young female is the first pup I ever got from a show line. I have had dogs all my life and the others were either rescued from the pound or bought from a backyard-breeder. The GRF has educated me about the value that serious breeders bring to the breed and to those of us who want pets that will never compete.

Were my rescued dogs wonderful? Absolutely! They were loving dogs that each shared my life for 14-16 years. And the ones from backyard breeders? Hmm. There was my beloved Sabrina with congenital kidney disease who ran up huge vet bills in her short life. Charlie had multiple surgeries for conditions ranging from a tumor on his spleen to a growth on his eye, and then there were the seizures that were probably caused by a brain tumor. Joker has also had a splenectomy and eye issues. All three were/are hypothyroid. That's just my Goldens.

Will my young well-bred Golden female be healthy all her life? Probably not, but the breeder is focused on producing healthy, intelligent, long-lived dogs and avoiding the host of genetic illnesses that afflict Goldens. 

There are many threads that talk about what it costs to produce a puppy from good lines. That was an eye-opener for me. In a world where so many dogs are euthanized because they are not wanted, I'm willing to invest a little more (okay, a lot more) up front to get a puppy whose parents were chosen because they would be likely to produce excellent examples of the breed.

Each owner makes a choice and I support that, but one thing I love about the GRF is that the information is here for it to be an educated choice.


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## JessCDoyle (May 21, 2013)

Onmyway - I meant specifically to better the breed in the way of how the dog physically looks. As for genetics again its all about researching as you would do just for finding a reputable breeder. Ask to see the parents vet bills and speak to the byb's vet about their history. Get to know them as you would with a reputable breeder. It's up to you to still choose a good, healthy dog no matter where it is coming from, and it's very possible with a good BYB to form a relationship where you can be apart of that process and the vet checks to confirm that the dog is healthy. As for adopting or rescuing - the argument could be made that even despite the possible same or cheaper vet bills for their health as you could pay from getting one from a BYB, their temperaments may not be sound, and you have no way of knowing their parents or full history. And yes youre saving a life, but I would support anyone that gives money to the couple who lives on a farm and their two female goldens are their family pets who they'll breed once a year with all past history being positive. 

Just as those owners who got their dogs from a BYB get "overly emotional" when the topic comes up and they defend their choices, there are just as many people who will look down and judge even though the dog is sound and in good health, and critique the choices that are already made. It doesnt change or help the situation and it results in people being offended. When really, the main thing people should be trying to do is just educate on what to look for if you believe a BYB is the option for you. It's going to happen regardless, so I'd rather educate on that than preach. 

I do agree with you that a reputable breeders pups may certainly save a lot of money in the long run. It should be obvious seeing as i do intend to go down that route when the time comes for a second one. it's just sometimes not an option for other people. 




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## JessCDoyle (May 21, 2013)

LJack said:


> I would only like to point out that the only reason *any* breed exists is through years if not generations or dedicated, reputable breeders. If you like the traits of any breed they are there because Breeders put them there. My issue with BYB's is with the *breeder*, never the dog. I would never condemn a dog because of where they came from and yes, good dogs can come out of the worst beginnings.
> 
> But what I never understand is when this forum which (whether we want it or not, whether we asked for it or not) has a responsibility to educate the general public on how to purchase a puppy, discusses the merits of buying from a reputable breeder, we digress to a very personal some time emotional response to general education/persuasive information.
> 
> ...



That is the perfect response, thank you. 
This forum from my short time on it certainly does have a lot of information to help educate and have potential owners make very good, well informed choices that work with them 
The support here from what I've seen is absolutely fantastic 

I will say sorry if my posts have been read in a not so nice tone because that is not how it is meant to be read. Rather Im trying to play devil's advocate because of my experience. 


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

JessCDoyle said:


> Ask to see the parents vet bills and speak to the byb's vet about their history. Get to know them as you would with a reputable breeder. It's up to you to still choose a good, healthy dog no matter where it is coming from, and it's very possible with a good BYB to form a relationship where you can be apart of that process and the vet checks to confirm that the dog is healthy..... And yes youre saving a life, but I would support anyone that gives money to the couple who lives on a farm and their two female goldens are their family pets who they'll breed once a year with all past history being positive.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Just wanted to point out that if you are talking "farm" dogs, they may have never seen a vet for an exam in their life. A lot of families who live a "farm" or "rural" life buy immunizations and wormer in bulk for all their animals an learn to treat illness on the farm. If the dogs have current rabies shots they may be through a shot clinic at something like a CO-OP clinc. 
Also, most vets are not qualified to diagnose hip Dysplasia, elbow Dysplasia, SAS, or PU through an office visit. So that history of clean health on BYB dogs usually means they have upto date shots. If that is enough for you, great. 
If you want a real look at health concerns in the breed that is going to be x-rays and specialist exams.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

But Goldens are Goldens more than just their looks. My BYB did no health clearances (hips, eyes, elbows or heart), and did nothing much with their dogs, supposedly were "therapy" dogs. They lived on a farm too and turned it into a HuGE operation. Do you want to potentially help to create that?? It can and does happen!

My first golden had most of the characteristics of a golden except she was BIG..like probably bigger than what a male golden is..I never did measure her but she was taller than my Boxer and should not have been! That big frame hurt her as she aged and got bone cancer and was not able to get around three-legged (in a sense). 

Most of the time people are in a "rush" to get a puppy and head to the nearest person with a litter of pups. Not thinking twice that their is a big difference (sorry if you dont think so) that if someone comes here and asks us about either a specific breeder or asking for one we will not be sending them to a BYB. Vet bills show they get their shots, breeding a dog is more than just that. No vet can just say," yup she/he has good hips,heart eyes..whatever". Their are tests to be done. Xrays, eye checks by an opthamolgist, heart check by a cardiologist (you can find health clinics to do these things relatively inexpensive) . 

I have nothing, absolutely nothing against you or your dog. I am simply here to help educate like alot of people on here. I dont want to see this thread get closed as they all seem to do. I, as a vet tech, see the heartache everyday of people who chose to go to a BYB, pet store, puppy mill..its not fun. I have had my own experiences with BYB dogs. It is heartbreaking to see your dog have health issues that could have been prevented. 

So this is my last post/response about it. This is strictly my opinions on the BYB/reputable breeder debate. I hope someone can come here and learn from it. If not, then I hope they do go in knowing the risks and would want them to come here for support as we all are golden lovers, no matter where they came from, we just want the best for all of them!


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I also made the switch from BYB to reputable breeder when I decided to get another dog.
I was 100% sure about getting another golden. Unfortunately my lab can be iffy meeting new dogs, so an adult rescue was out. Our golden rescue rarely has any dogs and puppies are virtually unheard of. So, after being on this forum I decided if I was going to buy to give my money to someone who should be breeding. This meant my getting a puppy was on hold for a while to save up for a puppy. It was a hard wait, but worth it in my opinion.
My next dog will be a lab (always 1 lab & 1 golden!). That will most likely be an adult from a rescue that uses fosters. I could get one quicker/easier/cheaper from the shelter but I need to know its cat safe as well as likes other dogs. I won't know it's history so that is a risk, but I will at least get a good idea of its temperament since it will be in foster care for a while.
I agree with the above, no one on this forum looks down on BYB dogs, my guess is we all had and loved them at one time. We just love the breed so much that we want to do what it takes to keep the breed producing the dogs that we love. It's a shame to start to hear about goldens that are aggressive. We're starting to see that more often. That is definitely a result of bad breeding.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

OnMyWay2MyDreams said:


> ... I am simply here to help educate like alot of people on here. I dont want to see this thread get closed as they all seem to do. ...


And the Mods don't like to have to close threads. Discussions like this are valuable to the community, provided they stay courteous and mutually respectful. :wavey:


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

As someone that did buy a puppy from a BYB I like the article. I was educated on this forum but if I wasn't on the forum and I read that before I bought a puppy it would have made me stop and think. Sadly, the health part isn't what I'm talking about (I know how bad that sounds) but what caught my eye was talking about the temperament of the specific breed you want. That makes perfect sense to me and I think it may have been enough to make me at least do some investigating and learning.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

JessCDoyle said:


> Onmyway - I meant specifically to better the breed in the way of how the dog physically looks. As for genetics again its all about researching as you would do just for finding a reputable breeder. Ask to see the parents vet bills and speak to the byb's vet about their history. Get to know them as you would with a reputable breeder. It's up to you to still choose a good, healthy dog no matter where it is coming from, and it's very possible with a good BYB to form a relationship where you can be apart of that process and the vet checks to confirm that the dog is healthy. As for adopting or rescuing - the argument could be made that even despite the possible same or cheaper vet bills for their health as you could pay from getting one from a BYB, their temperaments may not be sound, and you have no way of knowing their parents or full history. And yes youre saving a life, but I would support anyone that gives money to the couple who lives on a farm and their two female goldens are their family pets who they'll breed once a year with all past history being positive.
> 
> Just as those owners who got their dogs from a BYB get "overly emotional" when the topic comes up and they defend their choices, there are just as many people who will look down and judge even though the dog is sound and in good health, and critique the choices that are already made. It doesnt change or help the situation and it results in people being offended. When really, the main thing people should be trying to do is just educate on what to look for if you believe a BYB is the option for you. It's going to happen regardless, so I'd rather educate on that than preach.
> 
> ...


If you can find a person who is doing all the health clearances on the parents of their dogs plus only breeding dog's who have generations of full clearances behind them and in addition know their pedigrees backwards and forwards in terms of health and temperament I don't think anyone would discourage you from getting a pup they have bred. However that person would not be considered a BYB but a reputable breeder and would most likely be involved in some sort of dog competition.


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## JMME (Jun 18, 2012)

When I purchased Ripley, I thought I was purchasing from a decent breeder because she said his parents had hip clearances and the breeders spoke out against BYB and emphasized 20+ years of experience bettering the breed. In reality, I bought from a puppy mill with 4+ litters at all times and that bred OFA pending dogs with no other health clearances. It was convient for me at the time and I should have done better research. After becoming a member of this forum, I've learned so much and know that I will never purchase from any type of BYB again. This article is wonderful and a mindset a lot of people have going into it, so I hope a lot of people will see this before making the decision to purchase a puppy. I don't regret getting Ripley at all and I love him to pieces, but I feel horrible that I supported his breeder.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

If folks feel that everyone should purchase from "reputable" breeders, they need to do something to bring down the cost of those puppies so they are within the reach of poor and middle class folks. It's as simple as that. As long as those puppies are priced so highly, they will be out of the reach of some people who have traditionally been pet owners and loved and cherished their dogs- a lot of good homes. And those good homes will go look elsewhere (i.e. backyard breeders).

"Reputable" breeders may also want to consider attaching fewer strings to their puppy sales. Most buyers don't want to be investigated like they are applying to work with the CIA. Most buyers want to be free to pick their own dog food. Most buyers want to be free to pass their dog on to family or friends if they pass away or can no longer care for it, not return it to whomever bred it. Most buyers don't want a complex set of rules, they want to care for their dog they want they see fit, and have always cared for their dogs in the past.

Now, "reputable" breeders can do what they want, but as long as they price me out and condition me out of the market, I'll be going to back yard breeders each time my dog passes on. If a "reputable" breeder could offer me a big break on their normal prices and not require a contract, I'd be perfectly willing and happy to deal with them- but I contacted a lot of those breeders when I was looking for my current dog (Now 3 years old), who I got as an eight week old puppy, and none of them were willing to budge on price (We never even got to the point of talking contract).

Now, I know a bunch of people are about to chime in with "Well, if you can't afford the purchase price, you can't afford the dog.", but I don't want to hear it. I've paid for three years of vaccinations, heart worm preventative, flea and ticket protection, dog food, rawhide bones, dog treats, vet visits and so on and so forth. Do I shop around? Absolutely (I even switched vets over price). Do I make sacrifices? Absolutely. Could I afford dog chemo if my dog got stricken with cancer? Nope, but I don't know a single dog owner outside of the Internet who has paid for dog chemo for their pets, and that includes people who could easily afford to do so (I grew up in a family that did better financially than I do, so I do understand what those type of folks will and will not pay for), and even some dog experts question whether it's really advisable (i.e. Do you treat a 12 year old dog with cancer with chemo that'll cause it suffering it doesn't understand when it's so close to the end of its natural life span anyway, as opposed to palliative care? That's a judgement call even if the money *is* there.).

I think there needs to be more compassion and understanding for folks who are good dog owners who are in lower financial brackets or have their own way of approaching pet ownership. You know, these dogs are probably most appreciated by folks like me who have very little else in the world. They are shown more love, and included in more things. My dog has never spent the night anywhere I haven't been since leaving his mother, and I refuse invitations to stay overnight places where they won't let me bring my dog. He's been foraging in forests, dug deep holes on beaches, been my co-pilot on car rides, been taken to large gatherings when he happily goes around from person to person seeking to be petted, etc.. And he's got company most of the day because I have health problems and can't work a full-time job. It's not a bad life for a dog. Probably beats living with a rich family that mostly treats the dog as an afterthought, leaves him at home all day while they work and go to school and whatnot, and send him to a boarding kennel whenever they go out of town on business or pleasure- even if that rich family can afford doggie chemo.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Golden999 I believe we all know your song and dance. So by all means please continue to buy from where ever you want. No one will ever say or do anything that you can agree with due to your beliefs. I am sorry to see you post here again as this tread will most like go the way of all the others you have been involved in.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

What I don't understand is if you can afford 300-400, why not save up for a few months and get a puppy that has the deck stacked more in its favor.
As for the conditions, my breeder wasn't out of line with anything. If something happens to me, Kenzie can go to a relative. I'd have to double check my contract but I think she could even be given to a friend, you just can't give her to a rescue or dump her in a shelter. 

Funny, I know a few people that would/have treated dogs for cancer. I guess you tend to be friends with like minded people.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I have a 9 year old golden I adopted from a rescue who came with his AKC papers. His breeder did 2 clearances on the parents, failed to do the heart and eyes. My boy has issues with both his heart and his eyes, in addition to digestion/absorption. We've spent probably $20,000 in 9 years on this boy. Do I love him. *Absolutely*! Do I think he should have been bred? No, his breeder should not have bred him without doing all the clearances on the parents and carefully evaluating the temperament of both parents. This dog is paying the price for those decisions. 

Just as the article states, and many of the earlier threads on this forum state, sometimes that bargain dog from a BYB or a breeder who cuts corners by not doing clearances, results in a lot of heartache and expense down the road for the owners who purchased from that breeder. We are living proof of that. Yes, we love him and will move heaven and earth to provide the best for him, but his breeder did not help the breed in producing this litter. You take your chances.

For our puppy, we found a fantastic breeder who is knowledgeable about the breed, breeds within the GRCA standards, and is there to help us along the way with any questions. Will our puppy have a nice long healthy life? The jury is still out but we think we've stacked the deck squarely in his favor. I know from a temperament standpoint, he is definitely a dream dog and good representative of the breed.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I do think that the author of the article should have used a term other than "show" breeder which implies breeding for conformation showing and misses all the very reputable breeders who breed for performance venues but still breed to the standard and are totally concerned with health, structure and temperament.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I agree with this 100% (Selli-belle's post)
But, from reading a few other articles on that website I believe she is a Dane breeder. I'm not at all familiar with the Great Dane breed so maybe they don't have the various lines the way retrievers do?


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

I'll give you another perspective on this-I use to help a GR Rescue with Intakes.
A good number of Goldens available for adoption through Rescues, are AKC Goldens but they are not well bred Goldens, meaning the parents did not have all the Health Clearances.


My group was contacted several times by owners who had bought pups from someone that did not do any Health Clearances and the dogs had medical problems the owners could not afford to pay for. 

Within a six month time frame, we had two dogs that needed hip surgery, the owners asked to surrender them to us because they could not afford the surgery/treatment. My Group took both of these dogs in, got the needed surgery which cost between $4,000-$6,000 each. Once they were medically cleared, they were adopted to wonderful homes. I know of another Rescue in my state that has taken in dogs with Heart problems that needed treatment or surgery which was done at the Vet School.

Both of my Goldens are adopted, they are AKC but not well bred Goldens. I adopted them both fully aware they could have health problems in later years, but made the committment to meet those needs when/if it occurred during thier life time.

If you to choose to buy a pup through a Reputable Breeder that does all four clearances, you are paying for generations of a healthy line. The cost of a pup is only a very small portion of what the breeder spends to ensure that. 

There are many very good threads here on the forum where several of the breeders here have discussed what it costs them to produce a healthy litter. 

All my experience and knowledge has been working with Rescue, I have learned so much from this forum about Health Clearances, how to choose a breeder, what they Breeder does to ensure a healthy litter, etc. I am very grateful for their expertise and them sharing it with everyone to educate us all.


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## JessCDoyle (May 21, 2013)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> I'll give you another perspective on this-I use to help a GR Rescue with Intakes.
> A good number of Goldens available for adoption through Rescues, are AKC Goldens but they are not well bred Goldens, meaning the parents did not have all the Health Clearances.
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you! I will be sure to use that knowledge when the time comes to select a reputable breeder for our next dog. As for now, I'm knocking on wood for our pup to stay healthy


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Jennifer1 said:


> What I don't understand is if you can afford 300-400, why not save up for a few months and get a puppy that has the deck stacked more in its favor.


Lot of expenses involved in getting a new puppy, as I'm sure you know. One may be trying to pay back that $300 plus buying initial and on-going puppy supplies (a kennel, etc.) and food, and doing the monthly visits to the vet and vaccinations the first three months (I was lucky and they'd already done the first vaccine appointment for me, so I only had two visits). With anything, people can say save a little longer or borrow a little more, but many people wind up running into limits at some point. For example, on this forum where there are some well off people who are really really into puppies, I doubt many would go out and buy, or find affordable, the $6,000 puppies with championship blood lines I can remember seeing one site advertise, even though in theory that's better "stock" and "just requires more time spent saving".



CAROLINA MOM said:


> My group was contacted several times by owners who had bought pups from someone that did not do any Health Clearances and the dogs had medical problems the owners could not afford to pay for.
> 
> Within a six month time frame, we had two dogs that needed hip surgery, the owners asked to surrender them to us because they could not afford the surgery/treatment. My Group took both of these dogs in, got the needed surgery which cost between $4,000-$6,000 each. Once they were medically cleared, they were adopted to wonderful homes.


Out of curiosity, why did your rescue ask the owners to surrender the dogs before agreeing to perform the surgery? Why not simply offer to perform the surgery and return the dogs to their owners? I am not saying that anyone owes people money to have dog hip surgery done, but if you're operating a non-profit group devoted to such things and thus doing the surgery anyway, that approach bothers me. It'd be like telling parents with a child who has a disease he or she might die from that you'll save the child only if the parents agree to give him up for adoption and never contact him again, rather than simply saving the child and keeping him with his parents.

I understand why you wouldn't just write owners checks to cover the surgery, since you might be concerned about them taking the money and running or you might be relying on vets who donate time, but why not do them with your own vets and then return the dogs to their owners? You could even make the owners sign a contract agreeing not to sell the dog to anyone except the rescue as the cost of the procedure- thereby preventing people from getting a dog's health issues fixed and selling the dog for a profit- but allowing people who love their dogs to keep them.

Sometimes rescues really bother me. There doesn't always seem to be as much concern for the human-dog relationships and families that have developed as there should be. Maybe with some rescues there are, but many seem so focused on what they see as optimal conditions for dogs that they overlook things like a dog might be very attached to it's owners and want to stay with them even though they might have left the dog in a fenced in yard on a mild day with a tree for shade and a bowl of water for an hour or two (One rescue took a dog back from a friend's in-laws for that reason). Taking a dog away and not returning him as a condition of providing treatment a dog needs and the owner can't afford is a really extreme example of that seeming indifference to the dog's attachments to it's humans and vice-versa. I'm not sure all of these groups are entirely ethical.

Also, just as an aside, the obvious should of course be stated: Bloodlines and health clearances are not a guarantee of good health, and the lack thereof are not a guarantee of bad health. They affect the odds, but there are certainly many dogs with good bloodlines and health clearances who get these health issues anyway, and dogs without either who are perfectly healthy.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I just realized I never thanked the original poster. Thanks to you Jennifer1 for finding and sharing this great article. I always think it is awesome that this forum shares great information on all Golden and Dog topics like this so our members and anyone who happens to pop in can use these great resources. Way to go:appl:


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I just wanted to comment that I feel so blessed in that I was able to purchase the dogs I wanted. I love the golden retriever breed and again feel so blessed that both of mine are true representations of the breed - primarily thanks to their breeders. Let's all support GOOD breeders as opposed to people breeding whatever they can get their hands on.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Reading the many posts about health issues brings to mind multiple threads about pet health insurance. Some companies will cover pre-existing conditions for rescued dogs if the new owner buys the insurance within a specified time window of getting the dog. And there are policies that will cover congenital defects in young puppies, again provided the insurance is purchased early. Some policies are quite low cost and have a steeper deductible, but then they cover all costs above that, so that might be an option for those with limited means (as we all are, really).

After some research, I got insurance on Joker, even though he was almost 12 at the time. That insurance would have paid for itself forever if I had gotten it before his emergency splenectomy. 

Just a thought about things I wish I had known years ago.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I agree goldensgirl!
After racking up a large bill with my 17 year old cat that got a very treatable form of cancer I got insurance on all of my critters, including 2 dogs that were 11yrs old. Within that first year Bear had cancer, one of my new cats had some fever of unknown origin that required extended vet care, and my lab needed an emergency splenectomy. All of it covered! To say it paid for itself is an understatement!!


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## JessCDoyle (May 21, 2013)

I'm paying roughly under 60 a month for the wellness puppy plan my vet office offers which includes all the visits and vaccines for the year along with a few other things. After the year as I'm already used to paying it ill switch to a good insurance company despite the horror stories from personal connections. I'm not willing to take the risk... Love my little princess too much. 


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Golden999 said:


> ".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My Group DID NOT ask the owners to release or surrender their dogs to us, the owners Contacted my Group to see if we would take them into our Rescue Program and give them the medical treatment they needed since they could not afford to pay for it themselves. 

Golden Retriever Rescues are 501 (C) 3 Non profits, they are a part of the National Golden Retriever Rescue Committee, here is the link:

National Rescue Committee of the Golden Retriever Club of America

They have a Board of Directors, have by-laws they must follow. They operate solely from donations, fund raisers, and Grants. Volunteers donate their time and a lot of money to help dogs-None of the board members or volunteers receive payment of any type for the time or services they put in. 

The main purpose of a GR Rescue is all about the welfare of every dog that comes into Rescue and finding the best possible home for that dog. 

If you feel they are unethical, I recommend you visit the website of a few of the GR Rescues listed on the National Committee listing. View their adoption policies, contracts, requirements, etc.

I would also suggest you volunteer with a group in your area to get first hand experience of what it takes to help dogs in need and find them a permanent home.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I cannot even describe the work and crazy effort it has been to do it right, and I won't even know if pups will result until 6/26. I makes me more bummed with BYBs bc they are giving themselves such an easy way out at the dogs' expenses.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> I cannot even describe the work and crazy effort it has been to do it right, and I won't even know if pups will result until 6/26. I makes me more bummed with BYBs bc they are giging themselves such an easy way out at the dogs expenses.


It is worth all your effort, never doubt that.


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## TheGomi (Mar 28, 2013)

I have been reading this thread and the article and find it very interesting and informative. With Cooper being my first pup (aside from growing up with dogs) I am still new the whole world of breeders, etc. So please forgive me in advance if this question seems ignorant, but I'm just trying to learn and become more informed. Can someone help define a BYB vs. a "reputable" breeder? I just tried to search the forum for some old threads that might provide a definition but I couldn't find anything.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I define BYB (backyard breeder) as someone who has an intact purebred dog that they love and think is a perfect pet. They have a friend/neighbor/relative with the same breed of dog that is also intact and great. They let the dogs get together and sell the puppies.

I define a responsible breeder (also known as a hobby breeder) as someone who is involved with the national and local breed clubs. Does some sort of dog sport with their dogs (conformation, agility, obedience, field training), preferably more than one! This gets an unbiased persons view on how the dog is according to the breed standards. Gets all of the proper clearances for their potential breeding dogs (for GR that is hips, elbows, eyes, and heart). Won't breed until all clearances are good-which means dogs are at least 2 years old. They choose which dogs to breed based on what they each bring to the table-they should compliment each other and fill in the gaps of what each is missing from the ideal dog-this means those dogs are not usually owned by the same person or even from the same area of the country.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Also a responsible breeders relationship with pet owner doesn't end when the puppies go home. They are there to help with questions/issues. And will take the dog back at anytime if the owner can't keep them for some reason


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

BYB's are people who buy a dog of each sex with the intention of breeding them and selling puppies. Sometimes these are frumpy dogs that are whatever these people could get their hands on. Sometimes they are nice looking pet dogs who are close to breed standard.

You have people who get it into their heads that they are making an investment in buying two handsome dogs of the same breed and all you need as far as becoming a qualified breeder is having full registration from the AKC. And then you can sell puppies @ 800-1000 each, easy. 

You have them in every breed - and there are a LOT of BYB goldens out there. 

Some of your hobby breeders are glorified BYB's, because of course they own both parents and do absolutely nothing to qualify those dogs other than waiting a while to breed them and start popping out puppies to sell.

Because these dogs never really leave home or have to prove their temperament and intelligence/trainability in any way, the biggest harm to the breed is you have a lot of dogs being bred who lack true golden temperament and eagerness to work with their people. 

In some cases with your hobby breeders who are at least getting clearances... you still have the same issues with temperament and training. 

I guess that is why you really want to screen who you buy your puppy from. Instead of spending all your time looking at puppies, look into the parents and discuss those parents with the breeders.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

There is always a little variation in each persons definition. Here is a good thread on this topic http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...r-puppy/123061-basic-breeder-definitions.html
Also, here is the GRCA's definition Golden Retriever puppies:Golden Retriever Club of America (GRCA)ACQUIRING A GOLDEN RETRIEVER: Choosing A Reputable Breeder

And here is *my* definition of a reputable breeder- 

Does at the minimum the testing recomended by the GRCA or the parent club in their country. 

Does not breed underage animals.

Is active with their dogs in some venue of competition; Conformation, hunt tests, field, obeidience, rally, agility, doc diving, tracking, etc. (for _me_ personally Therapy is not enough on it's own, as I believe most Goldens should fill this niche naturally, also a lot of less that reputable folks use this as a claim to fame. I of course support Therapy as valuable work and love to see it in addition to other disciplines. As a note service dogs are not the same as therapy dogs.) 

Does not breed all their girls to the same boy because he is on site or is convenient. Is instead happy to discuss the traits and reason for picking each breeding pair.

Does not breed their girl every time she is in season, though they may do a back to back before giving her a rest period. And does not breed her more than 5 times in her life though that number really depends on how mom recovers from her litters. Is cautious with their girls health and carefully weighs the risks for health with each breeding.

Does not have more litters on the ground at one time than they can successfully raise and socialize. For each type of set up this number may be different. If this is a kennel arrangement with staff that number may be much grater than a Hobbyist in their home. 

Sells their pet puppies on spay/neuter contacts to well screened homes. Meaning they are not putting puppies in homes where only one person wants or even likes dogs. Homes that have prepared for the realities of puppy rearing.

Places well chosen show/breeding animals in appropriate homes. Not just offering full registration to anyone who ponies up additional cash.

Offers to take back or preferably requires return of the puppy or a hand in rehoming if you can not keep it for any reason for it entire life. This is a breeder who is actively avoiding being part of the reason dogs end up in shelters or rescues.

Offers their continued support as a resource for the life of your puppy.

Is open and honest. Does not lie about clearance status or lie by omission in just not telling folks important health aspects. I prefer a breeder who submits all their clearance information to OFFA if they are in North America so there is never any question but it is not a deal breaker if they provide real hard copies.


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## TheGomi (Mar 28, 2013)

LJack said:


> There is always a little variation in each persons definition. Here is a good thread on this topic http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...r-puppy/123061-basic-breeder-definitions.html
> Also, here is the GRCA's definition Golden Retriever puppies:Golden Retriever Club of America (GRCA)ACQUIRING A GOLDEN RETRIEVER: Choosing A Reputable Breeder
> 
> And here is *my* definition of a reputable breeder-
> ...


The link to that thread is very helpful, thanks for providing it! I also like hearing how everyone defines it themselves, just interesting because it seems like there is not a "strict" definition. Learning all this does make me feel even more confident in the breeder we got Cooper from, I was so new to being a dog owner that, although I did a good deal of research, and I knew I wanted to stay away from puppy mills, I didn't know much more than that. I think this is all great information for anyone considering adopting a dog. 


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

While everyone has their own tweaks on it there are some basic tenets for "reputable" breeders. 

For instance a person who does not do any of the recomended testing would not be reputable. A person who is breeding dogs at 8 months of age is not reputable. A person who breeds a girl every heat until she unable to carry another litter is not reputable.

So, while there is no hard and fast definition there are some hard and fast components. Anyone who is questioning should look to the Breed organization in their country. They can provide a definition that would be the minimum requirements as determined by a group of experienced, dedicated enthusiasts with the breeds best interests in mind. 

Then it is up to you to add those items that are important to you. But, it should never be less than your Breed clubs recommendations.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> My Group DID NOT ask the owners to release or surrender their dogs to us, the owners Contacted my Group to see if we would take them into our Rescue Program and give them the medical treatment they needed since they could not afford to pay for it themselves.
> 
> Golden Retriever Rescues are 501 (C) 3 Non profits, they are a part of the National Golden Retriever Rescue Committee, here is the link:
> 
> ...


I appreciate that these groups are full of well-intentioned people who have every intent on doing the right thing, and sometimes do. However, it feels wrong to me to offer medical care to dogs who's owners can't afford it only if their owners surrender them to be adopted out to a new family, and not offer the owners the option of having medical care provided for their dogs and then having their dogs be returned to them, baring in mind that for many people their dogs are like children who they've raised from eight week old puppies to an old age, and that many of these dogs are similarly deeply attached to their humans. 

I don't think it's the right thing for either the human or the dog to break those families apart, even if it's technically voluntary on the part of the owner (Voluntary in the sense that the owner could refuse and watch his or her dog suffer and die instead). You get a human family missing it's dog, and a dog who may bond with a new family eventually, but may also always wonder why it's original family abandoned it and miss it's original humans.

Similarly, some of the contracts that rescues proffer can create similar breakups of human-dog families when violated, though I will say at least in those cases the humans ought to read the contracts before signing them and seek a dog from another source if they disagree with them. But I do think in those cases the dog sometimes suffers when it is taken out of yet another home due to a technical violation of a contract as opposed to real abuse. It's not the dog's fault that it's humans forgot a small provision of a contract, but it is the dog who loses it's second family when it is enforced.

I don't really question people's intentions in the sense that I presume they think they are doing the right thing. The rescues are non-profit and people do often donate time and money with no compensation. I don't think there are anterior motives, for the most part. I just think they are often misguided and could use real reform. I'm surprised some of these things aren't questioned more.

Granted, some rescues probably don't operate in the ways I object to. I understand that they are a lot of these organizations and they are not all identical in the way they approach things. But I largely disagree with the way that so many of these animal organizations operate that it would be hard to see donating money or time to them even I had the time or money to donate. I won't contribute to the break up of families. If I were rich, I'd probably start my own that operates under an entirely different set of principles. The idea of the rescue pared down to it's basic essentials, that is to say accepting animals people don't want and caring for them and setting them up with new homes, is good, but there are often philosophies and standards that go beyond that and move them into what I'd consider at best a gray area ethically.

I seem to be basically be alone in feeling this way for some reason. Well, not completely alone- I have a friend who's in-laws agree with me after having their dog taken, and I am sure there are others who've had similar things happen who are also would have a few negative words to say about the practices of some rescues. But that there isn't a wider spread questioning of some of these things baffles me.


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## goldentemperment (May 16, 2012)

TheGomi said:


> Can someone help define a BYB vs. a "reputable" breeder? I just tried to search the forum for some old threads that might provide a definition but I couldn't find anything.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I define a BYB as a person who breeds unqualified dogs, either out of greed, ignorance, laziness, malice, or stupidity. I don't group "oops" litters into that...oops litters are just mess ups.

I define a puppy mill as a BYB without dignity, compassion, or humanity. I don't differentiate between the two very much because both BYBs and puppy mills breed unqualified dogs and are detrimental to the breed.

I define a reputable breeder as a breeder who follows their breed's code of ethics, does health clearances targeting the particular health concerns of the breed they're breeding, cares about improving their breed, and cares about where their puppies end up.

In my experience, reputable breeders stick out like a sore thumb when you know what to look for. They generally wrap with as much passion about why their dogs will make a good family pet as they do about the their lines' pedigrees, and how each breeding improves their current line. They often own between 2 and 7 dogs (that they are or will breed), and have between 0 and 3 litters per year. When you look at the pedigrees of their lines, they tend to be chock full of titles, and the diversity or lack of diversity of those titles describes what their goals are for the particular line they're breeding. Breeding tends to be unprofitable for reputable breeders, and may even represent a net loss, if you were to look at the balance sheet.

I think it's easier to define a BYB or puppy mill than it is to define a "reputable breeder," because like a lot of things, it's hard to explain, but you know it when you see it.

There's lots of threads on this forum about what to look for in a reputable breeder.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I don't really know much about rescues, but I would think their mission is to take in animals from people who cannot or will not care for them anymore. If the animal requires medical care, it will receive it. But it isn't the rescue's mission to provide free medical treatment. If they did provide free vet care, I imagine many, many people would take advantage of rescues. So it makes sense to me that they would only provide medical care for animals whose families can't or won't pay for treatment. 


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

My heart dog Homer who I lost in January was rescued from a fellow who had to give him up. Homer came with a free crate and AKC papers and was a big lovely, mellow fellow who won hearts of everyone who met him. He would have never made the show circuit "cut" as he was too large. But I was not concerned about his lineage. Homer came into my life when I was not looking or wanting and changed me for the better. I loved that dog like no other, conformation faults or no. His large size tho, plus Lyme disease did cause him joint pains in his latter years. 
After Homer died, I bought Olliver from an incredible breeder/trainer/behaviorist who did years of research with stellar lines. I attempted to go the rescue route but after 3 months of dead ends, decided to buy. Since I was going to buy, wanted to do it right as I could. Had my choice of a couple different breeders and chose this one because of her dedication to raising these pups and her own adult Goldens with such enthusiasm, love, research and thoughtfulness. I am incredibly pleased with Olliver. And I give a lot of credit to the work and effort that goes in to the breeding of healthy/temperate/solid dogs. It is a science and an art.
So, two sides to the coin. Is Olliver a "better" pup than Homer because of his better pedigree? Not to me. But I can only hope that by going this route, he may have an easier time of it when he gets older, the pain Homer went thru with hip dysplasia hurt me to witness. But the only really important criteria for me, is not size or color or coat length, it is that Golden heart. And Homer the rescue had the biggest heart of any Golden I ever owned to date.
That being said, there are no guarantees ever. But if I am making a choice to buy, I will make every effort to spend money wisely and hopefully put some of those puppy mills outta business at the same time. 
Whatever, rescue or show dog purchase, love each of your babies with all your heart and hopefully you will have many years of love in return.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Putting on my Mod hat now...

It always worries me when people begin to quote one another's posts in a thread like this... a thread discussing issues about which our members are passionate. It is often (not always, of course) a sign that the participants are edging towards personal attacks, which typically leads to the closing of the thread.

The subject matter under discussion here is important to many people and I hope that the thread can stay open. To that end, I ask all participants to state each of your points once and then please do not repeat them.

Thank you.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> If they did provide free vet care, I imagine many, many people would take advantage of rescues.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



100% agree!!!!!
There actually are organizations out there that exist to help people that can't afford it provide needed medical care for their pets. Again, this money is all donations so it hard to come by.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

This has been a good discussion about the article. I hope members learn the health risks and possible medical costs when purchasing a pup/dog from a breeder that does not do all the Health clearances or if you have adopted or Rescued one.

Ultimately it is the owners responsibility to meet the financial requirements to provide care and medical treatment, not somone else's. I feel it's the lifetime committment you make when you made that decision.
Both of my Goldens are adopted, I went into it fully aware of possible health problems/risks, but have made the committment to them both to provide the care and any medical treatment they may need at any time. 

There are several members here on the forum that help with GR Rescues-it takes a lot of hard work and many hours to raise the necessary funds to provide treatment for the dogs that come into Rescue. Yes, adopters pay an Adoption fee, but it is only a very very small portion of the cost of medical treatment for most of the dogs that come into Rescue.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

JessCDoyle said:


> I just think people tend to generalize quite a bit and maybe because I had gone against my plan of going to a breeder, I can sympathize with those who didn't because it can quickly turn into an extreme judgmental situation.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Very true! But it doesn't stop there, even rep breeders fight among themselves on who is better. This will never change and really is not worth your time and energy to let it bother you.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Golden999 said:


> If folks feel that everyone should purchase from "reputable" breeders, they need to do something to bring down the cost of those puppies so they are within the reach of poor and middle class folks. It's as simple as that. As long as those puppies are priced so highly, they will be out of the reach of some people who have traditionally been pet owners and loved and cherished their dogs- a lot of good homes. And those good homes will go look elsewhere (i.e. backyard breeders).
> 
> "Reputable" breeders may also want to consider attaching fewer strings to their puppy sales. Most buyers don't want to be investigated like they are applying to work with the CIA. Most buyers want to be free to pick their own dog food. Most buyers want to be free to pass their dog on to family or friends if they pass away or can no longer care for it, not return it to whomever bred it. Most buyers don't want a complex set of rules, they want to care for their dog they want they see fit, and have always cared for their dogs in the past.
> 
> ...


I can certainly understand your sentiment about dogs being affordable for those less fortunate. I am not budging on my position on BYBs vs reputably bred ones, but I support a lot of what you said. I am passionate about the less fortunate provided that they are responsible being able to have dogs. With that said, no breeder is obligated to lower their price for the poor. If a breeder decides to be gracious and lower the price for someone, great! Breeders are set in their ways and rightfully so, and with their main mission to improve the breed, they will not budge in price to help the lower income people. Breeders also have their screening requirements because like it or not, the pups are a much higher priority than the puppy buyers. Dog owners still need to learn to budget regardless of income level.


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## Artnlibsmom (May 8, 2013)

JMME said:


> When I purchased Ripley, I thought I was purchasing from a decent breeder because she said his parents had hip clearances and the breeders spoke out against BYB and emphasized 20+ years of experience bettering the breed. In reality, I bought from a puppy mill with 4+ litters at all times and that bred OFA pending dogs with no other health clearances. It was convient for me at the time and I should have done better research. After becoming a member of this forum, I've learned so much and know that I will never purchase from any type of BYB again. This article is wonderful and a mindset a lot of people have going into it, so I hope a lot of people will see this before making the decision to purchase a puppy. I don't regret getting Ripley at all and I love him to pieces, but I feel horrible that I supported his breeder.


Well said. We did the same thing here....to some extent....our first golden was from a byb. He was a wonderful boy that passed from cancer at 13. We never had ANY problems, right up to the last week, and I mean that literally! He had a wonderful personality, no joint issues. We lucked out, we just didn't know it. Our next goldens (a pair that were half siblings) came from a puppy mill.....didn't know that initially....but I'll admit when we went to see them, and subsequently brought them home, I should have known it. The breeder didn't take us to their "kennels", rather they brought the pups out into the yard. When I picked a female and my dh laughingly said "since you don't have any males left", they miraculously produced one male unsold from another litter. Long story short, we got two instead of the one that we went for. The female was AKC, the male ACA. Within the first couple of months, the male, Artemis, developed a problem with one eye. Despite multiple visits to Cornell, he lost vision in that eye, has now (eight years later)developed glaucoma that requires three meds twice a day for the rest of his life....which I hope is many more years. The breeder offered half the purchase price back and we kept the pup, or all the money back and RETURN him....yeah right. Half back. At about the same point the letter came in the mail from AKC advising us that DNA showed problems with the female's (Liberty) "parentage", she could not be registered. Fast forward to 20 months...that's the point at which Liberty had to have a FHO because hip dysplasia was causing her pain that other treatments (meds, glucosamine,low weight, adequan) didn't resolve. At 3 years, Liberty was diagnosed hypothyroid. Yep, more meds. Seven weeks ago we lost Liberty to hemangio. 

So, very long story...sorry, I didn't keep it shorter......I ADORE my Artie, Liberty was the CENTER OF MY WORLD. Would I give up these two wonderful golden....NO.....would I change the circumstances, most definitely. These two have made our lives for eight years, but an unscrupulous breeder cost us well above what we would have paid a reputable breeder. Its not all about the cost though....its about these two precious lives. 

Next puppy? I think you can figure this one out!

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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I'm not buying the "whole luck" thing. Obviously if you had a golden that lived a ripe old age with absolutely no health problems, they inherited some very nice genes. My first golden unfortunately didn't inherit the good genes. I don't call that being unlucky. It is what it is.


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## Wenderwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

Oh yuck... these things always hurt someone's feelings. My only question is what do we do with all these dogs that "shouldn't have been bred?"

If a dog needs a home and you're willing to take it on. That should be the end of the story.

It should not say don't GET a dog... it should say don't BREED a dog unless you are going to be responsible. It's the breeder's fault, not the buyers.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

My bridge boy was AKC but not a well bred Golden, he lived to be 15.5 with only minor health issues such as being bit/stung a few times by insects. He did get arthritis when he was in his teens and eventually diagnosed with Cancer at the age of 14-14.5. All in all, he had long good life.

In my area many people think because their dog is AKC they should or have the right to breed their dog. They have no idea about health clearances.

You can try to educate people, but when people don't want to hear or listen, it's very difficult.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Wenderwoman, I agree. I think it's safe to say that even though many on this forum (including myself) are critical of BYBs or HVBs breeding practices, at no time are they saying that a dog produced by a BYB or HVB does not deserve a wonderful home - including the many cherished goldens from those circumstances who are owned by members of this forum. Unfortunately these threads often take a downturn very quickly because feelings get hurt and assumptions are made. We all love our dogs, no matter where they came from. 

What we all need to do to keep these threads open and productive is mentally make a distinction between having a general discussion about breeding practices versus personalizing comments made in the thread. I think if we all remember that, these types of discussions could remain much more civil.

And for what it's worth, I'm not sure I've ever mentioned that my first golden came from a BYB (who was also a family friend). She was wonderful and lived to be almost 16. But she was not without some significant health issues...including allergies, severe hip dysplasia and some non-golden-like temperament traits. But of course, she was wonderful - in my totally unbiased opinion.  Should our friend have been breeding goldens knowing everything I know now? Certainly not. But of course I would not have traded our Libby for the world. Luckily when you know better you do better. Our family friend realized breeding was not easy and that was their only litter. They have since had other goldens from reputable breeders and rescues


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Wenderwoman said:


> Oh yuck... these things always hurt someone's feelings. My only question is what do we do with all these dogs that "shouldn't have been bred?"
> 
> If a dog needs a home and you're willing to take it on. That should be the end of the story.
> 
> It should not say don't GET a dog... it should say don't BREED a dog unless you are going to be responsible. It's the breeder's fault, not the buyers.


What do we do with the dogs? Find someone who will love them and give them the best life possible. Whatever is wrong about them certainly isn't the dogs' fault. 

Many of us here, myself included, have gotten dogs from irresponsible breeders, often because we didn't know the difference. In the long run, I don't believe I saved a dime by buying from a BYB. The vet bills for my girl with kidney disease, hip dysplasia, and arthritis were sky high. She was spectacularly beautiful, smart as could be, and the dog who will always hold my heart. But she suffered so much and I know that she should never have been born, much as it hurts to say that.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I'm not buying the "whole luck" thing. Obviously if you had a golden that lived a ripe old age with absolutely no health problems, they inherited some very nice genes. My first golden unfortunately didn't inherit the good genes. I don't call that being unlucky. It is what it is.


This is correct it is about getting good genes.
But, it's also about increasing the odds of getting good genes.
Just using the OFFA stats on elbow displasia these are your odds


> Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED
> Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED
> Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED​


Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Elbow Dysplasia
So, by not having parents screened you could in fact be breeding 2 normal elbowed dogs. Or you could be breeding 2 dysplastic dogs.
Without getting the clearances it's literally a gamble with what you are breeding.


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## Wenderwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

GoldensGirl said:


> What do we do with the dogs? Find someone who will love them and give them the best life possible. Whatever is wrong about them certainly isn't the dogs' fault.
> 
> Many of us here, myself included, have gotten dogs from irresponsible breeders, often because we didn't know the difference. In the long run, I don't believe I saved a dime by buying from a BYB. The vet bills for my girl with kidney disease, hip dysplasia, and arthritis were sky high. She was spectacularly beautiful, smart as could be, and the dog who will always hold my heart. But she suffered so much and I know that she should never have been born, much as it hurts to say that.


Well, my story is that I wanted a Golden and I was looking down every avenue which also included Craigslist and that is where I got my puppy from. They were neither a BYB or a reputable breeder. He was just a hunter who wanted another hunting dog so he found a male Golden to breed with his female. The pups were in sad shape and I cringe to think what would have happened if I didn't get her when I did. She had two types of worms and scabies. He had used an adult flea powder on the puppies and she had scabs in some places from it. They had never seen a vet which means she had absolutely no vaccinations. Fortunately, we took her to the vet right away and started treatment and 7 months later she is doing just fine. She was, however, well fed and had a great temperament and is still a delight.

I knew what I was taking on. I got pet insurance to be ready for any health issues along the line.

It stinks that breeders are irresponsible. Rather than just punishing the dogs for coming from a bad breeder, maybe we need a better system of informing people about them or shutting them down.

I hate that kind of logic that punishes the wrong person.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I think it needs to be reiterated.
Many (if not all of us) here have at some point owned a dog that came from a BYB.
Some of these dogs had issues ranging from minor to very very severe. Others had no issues and lived to be old frosted faced goldens!
These dogs were all cherished and loved, and wouldn't have been traded for the perfect dog with all sorts of initials after it's name.
This isn't about the dogs, it's about the breeders.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Jennifer1 said:


> This is correct it is about getting good genes.
> But, it's also about increasing the odds of getting good genes.
> Just using the OFFA stats on elbow displasia these are your odds
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Elbow Dysplasia
> ...


And what are the odds of other diseases such as cancer?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Jennifer1 said:


> This is correct it is about getting good genes.
> But, it's also about increasing the odds of getting good genes.
> Just using the OFFA stats on elbow displasia these are your odds
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Elbow Dysplasia
> ...


This is very important to remember. There is no arguing with the statistics that breeding a sire and dam who have generations of clearances reduces (note: I did not say eliminates) the odds of producing puppies with HD, ED, SAS or hereditary eye disease. I have been on the wrong side of the statistics with my Chloe. Despite having 5 plus generations of hip clearances behind her, she still has moderate HD. Her HD is severe enough that it was best for her to be an only dog in a lower activity household, so she now lives the "good life" with my parents. 

Even though we had a very hard time making that decision and it totally STINKS that she ended up with moderate HD despite the breeder's best efforts, it does not change my opinion one iota that anyone breeding dogs should be doing the very best they can to produce healthy, long lived puppies with correct temperaments. There is no excuse for anything less, in my opinion, as there are enough homeless animals out there who were bred under less than ideal circumstances who need homes. That is why the only place I would get a dog is through a reputable breeder or a shelter/rescue.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> And what are the odds of other diseases such as cancer?


Statistically (and I will try to find the link but I can't remember where I just read it) most goldens will die of cancer. But there is a vast difference between a golden dying at age 4 or age 14 of cancer. Certainly hip, elbow, heart and eye clearances are not testing dogs for a cancer gene, since there is no DNA test for cancer at this time.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> And what are the odds of other diseases such as cancer?


I'm no expert. However, I believe that cancers are not among the diseases that get tracked and reported, though many of us please that they should be. 

Given my own concerns about that, I looked as far back in K9data as I could, looking for longevity. Increasing longevity in her lines is one of the things I liked about the breeder I chose.

One thing I found interesting in the contract I signed with our little gal's breeder is that she will refund up to the purchase price and/or take her "grand-pup" back if there are certain health issues.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Jennifer1 said:


> I think it needs to be reiterated.
> Many (if not all of us) here have at some point owned a dog that came from a BYB.
> Some of these dogs had issues ranging from minor to very very severe. Others had no issues and lived to be old frosted faced goldens!
> These dogs were all cherished and loved, and wouldn't have been traded for the perfect dog with all sorts of initials after it's name.
> This isn't about the dogs, it's about the breeders.


My girl that I adopted through the GR Rescue is a former puppy mill momma girl. She was not socialized, had been abused both physically and verbally by a male we think, because she is still afraid of most men. She was in very poor health, had stage 3 HW. 

She has come a very very long way, and is now healthy, but she will never be 100% and I've had her almost 7 years. With us, she is wonderful, a pretty normal golden girl. But with people she doesn't know, it takes her a long time to warm up to people. 

The dogs that are used for breeding are treated horribly, they don't receive any type of Vet care, no love or compassion is shown to them ever. They are used as a commodity, and when they no longer produce litters whether it be because they are unhealhty which was my girl's case, they are disposed of. 

My girl was lucky, she was turned into a high kill shelter and pulled by a GR Rescue. A lot of dogs are shot.

I love my girl just the way she is, she's happy and healthy. She had a long journey to get where she is, but it's been worth it to see every progress she made along the way.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

> More than half of Golden Retrievers die from cancer, and it is the leading cause of death in all dogs over the age of 2.


https://www.caninelifetimehealth.org/#About/GoldenRetrieverLifetimeStudy

Not scientific, but sites such as K9 data have a place to list age and cause of death of the dogs. I'm not sure if OFFA tracks that as well.
I can't speak to all breeders, but I know that my breeder definitely looks at the ages of the dogs in the lines she is looking to breed with.
Kenzie's maternal side has many dogs that lived into the 12-15yr age groups. Her paternal side was really well also, but last year her great grandfather died of hemangio of the heart at 9yrs old. We are hoping that isn't going to be popping up in the lines now, or that the maternal sides genes can dilute it out.
This is strictly an assumption on my part, but I'm guessing most BYB aren't spending a lot of time going over pedigrees to find out what the dogs died from or how long they lived.
Again, there are NO guarantees, but only making an effort to stack the odds in the puppies favor.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Golden999 said:


> Lot of expenses involved in getting a new puppy, as I'm sure you know. One may be trying to pay back that $300 plus buying initial and on-going puppy supplies (a kennel, etc.) and food, and doing the monthly visits to the vet and vaccinations the first three months (I was lucky and they'd already done the first vaccine appointment for me, so I only had two visits). With anything, people can say save a little longer or borrow a little more, but many people wind up running into limits at some point. For example, on this forum where there are some well off people who are really really into puppies, I doubt many would go out and buy, or find affordable, the $6,000 puppies with championship blood lines I can remember seeing one site advertise, even though in theory that's better "stock" and "just requires more time spent saving".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sadly, there are millions of pet owners all over the country having to turn over their pets due not having money for surgery. I think it should be evaluated on a case by case basis, but rescues and SPCAs and shelters cannot afford to perform surgery for free for everyone. There are many people hoping for free vet care, but it usually doesn't happen that way. Harsh, but true.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Having pets is a privilege not a right!


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## Artnlibsmom (May 8, 2013)

MikaTallulah said:


> Having pets is a privilege not a right!


And with this privilege is the responsibility to be sure you can take care of them. Sometimes that means changing your budget to fulfill your responsibility. I know that there are circumstances beyond our control, but it does need to be a consideration when you bring any pet (family member for most on this forum) into your life. 

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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Artnlibsmom said:


> And with this privilege is the responsibility to be sure you can take care of them. Sometimes that means changing your budget to fulfill your responsibility. I know that there are circumstances beyond our control, but it does need to be a consideration when you bring any pet (family member for most on this forum) into your life.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


My sentiments exactly!


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## RobT (Apr 24, 2013)

Artnlibsmom said:


> And with this privilege is the responsibility to be sure you can take care of them. Sometimes that means changing your budget to fulfill your responsibility. I know that there are circumstances beyond our control, but it does need to be a consideration when you bring any pet (family member for most on this forum) into your life.


I wish everyone felt this way.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Golden999 said:


> I appreciate that these groups are full of well-intentioned people who have every intent on doing the right thing, and sometimes do. However, it feels wrong to me to offer medical care to dogs who's owners can't afford it only if their owners surrender them to be adopted out to a new family, and not offer the owners the option of having medical care provided for their dogs and then having their dogs be returned to them, baring in mind that for many people their dogs are like children who they've raised from eight week old puppies to an old age, and that many of these dogs are similarly deeply attached to their humans.
> 
> I don't think it's the right thing for either the human or the dog to break those families apart, even if it's technically voluntary on the part of the owner (Voluntary in the sense that the owner could refuse and watch his or her dog suffer and die instead). You get a human family missing it's dog, and a dog who may bond with a new family eventually, but may also always wonder why it's original family abandoned it and miss it's original humans.
> 
> ...


Also, the ASPCA will not accept third party payments in the event there are kind folks who want to help pay for the treatment of someone's dog who had to be surrendered in order to get necessary treatment.


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## mscici (Jun 19, 2013)

goldentemperment said:


> I define a BYB as a person who breeds unqualified dogs, either out of greed, ignorance, laziness, malice, or stupidity. I don't group "oops" litters into that...oops litters are just mess ups.
> 
> I define a puppy mill as a BYB without dignity, compassion, or humanity. I don't differentiate between the two very much because both BYBs and puppy mills breed unqualified dogs and are detrimental to the breed.
> 
> ...


Hi, 
A breeder of good reputation will provide you with both the good and bad points about the breed you prefer. They offer useful advice and assistance to new dog owners.


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## Denzelfive (Jun 25, 2013)

I think one problem of the article is telling people, what they should and should not do absolute. People make their own choices, and informing them of the impacts of the choices they make is a great exercise. But laying down the 'dog law' just make people ignore the message.

It is also true that some great Pedigree lines of dogs suffer health issues, due to selective breeding in a small gene pool, that crosses do not suffer.


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## mddolson (Jul 10, 2012)

Denzelfive said:


> I think one problem of the article is telling people, what they should and should not do absolute. People make their own choices, and informing them of the impacts of the choices they make is a great exercise. But laying down the 'dog law' just make people ignore the message.
> 
> It is also true that some great Pedigree lines of dogs suffer health issues, due to selective breeding in a small gene pool, that crosses do not suffer.


I must say I agree. 

Mike D


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I think as an exercise in persuasive writing it accomplishes what it sets out to do. It is by its structure designed to offer a single oppinion and then support it with facts and persuasive statements. 
Whether or not you agree with any persuasive essay is of course always upto you. But, I will admit freely I see buying from reputable breeders as pretty black and white. I think people should support reputable breeders that are safe guarding our breed or rescues who are safe garding individual dogs. 
Now, I am not naive and I know we will never be with out BYB's. But, I do dream of a day when puppy buyers are making an educated decision, in which a person knows exactly what they are giving up and what the risks are in exchange for saving some money. 
In that regard, this is a very successful article and I am glad to have it posted on the forum wher more than just our members can read it. 
With this being such a sensitive topic, some folks will read this and feel that it is an attack on their individual dog or their choice of breeder. I would urge everyone to remember in threads about BYB's it is never about the dogs. This forum is a great community that supports all Goldens and their owners no matter where they came from.
I love my little BYB Min Pin. I bought him when I was a teen and I was in a hurry. I love him to death (which I fear becuase he is close to 15). But, I would not support that breeder again if I had the chance to do it over. He is a great dog but he is not really recognizable as a Min Pin. He is too big (like 2x), his structure is a mess, his head looks more like an IG and he does not have that peppy Min Pin gait that he should. This is I think one of the best points the article makes. If you want a good representative of any breed, with all the traits/temperment/aptitude of that breed, that is going to come from a reputable breeder that makes those things a priority.
I know the argument is always raised that it is not a guarantee, that good dogs can come from BYB's and dogs from reputable breeders can have issues. Yes, these are true in some instances. But I also know the only things in life that are 100%, Black and White, no room for chance are death and taxes.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

MikaTallulah said:


> Having pets is a privilege not a right!


"Breathing air is a privilege and not a right! Someone paid for those trees to be planted that produce that oxygen!"

"Having food to eat is a privilege and not a right! Someone paid to plant that corn you want to eat."

Blah, blah, blah.

Honestly, that phrase is a really trigger with me. It basically says to me "I've got mine, screw the rest of you." and basically is treated like an argument ender, as if no one could possible argue with it.

I could have children if I met the right women, my income status wouldn't matter. And before you say "That's a privilege, not a right", you might want to consider that it absolutely _is_ an internationally recognized human right to be able to form families and reproduce. The UN Declaration on Human Rights is one document where it's affirmed, just off the top of my head, but there are others.

If poor folks can have children, they certainly should able to have dogs. If better off folks worry about what might happen to the dogs who contract expensive disorders, perhaps they can start a charity to help pay for their treatment if they want.

You know, there is a very basic American _right_, it's called the right to pursue happiness. For some people, that involves, in part, having a dog. They feed it, they provide it a home, they do the best they can with vaccinations, preventatives, and treatments, but if the worst happens and it requires major surgery, they might have issues, but that's life. You don't like it, the answer isn't to take dog ownership away from the masses, the answer is for you to contribute to helping the masses pay for such things, or, if you're a veterinarian, offering sliding scales, payment plans, and even donating free time and treatment to those who can't afford it for their animals.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

This is a reminder to keep your posts polite in this thread. There is a way to post alternate viewpoints without rudeness.


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## Artnlibsmom (May 8, 2013)

Golden999 said:


> They feed it, they provide it a home, they do the best they can with vaccinations, preventatives, and treatments, but if the worst happens and it requires major surgery, they might have issues, but that's life. You don't like it, the answer isn't to take dog ownership away from the masses, the answer is for you to contribute to helping the masses pay for such things, or, if you're a veterinarian, offering sliding scales, payment plans, and even donating free time and treatment to those who can't afford it for their animals.


I agree with you to SOME extent. Lower cost care would certainly help "the masses", however, I work my behind off at one fulltime job and two part time jobs so that I can provide the care that my golden/s deserve and that I'm responsible for. I am NOT looking for sympathy because I work that many jobs. It is my choice. I pay taxes, many of which go to helping others provide for their children during difficult times....I also have no problems with that....I may need that help myself some day...who knows. I have a husband who has health problems, he's survived breast cancer and recently had a quad bypass. We know about financial struggles, we aren't rich, we aren't poor. We've had dogs from bybs, one as healthy as a horse and long lived, another with hypothyroidism and hip dysplasia that required surgery, and another with a congenital eye problem that has blinded one eye. All were "inexpensive" initially. My next will not be from a byb, I know that is not a guarantee, but it will reduce the risk. 


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Golden999 said:


> You know, there is a very basic American _right_, it's called the right to pursue happiness. For some people, that involves, in part, having a dog. They feed it, they provide it a home, they do the best they can with vaccinations, preventatives, and treatments, but if the worst happens and it requires major surgery, they might have issues, but that's life. You don't like it, the answer isn't to take dog ownership away from the masses, the answer is for you to contribute to helping the masses pay for such things, or, if you're a veterinarian, offering sliding scales, payment plans, and even donating free time and treatment to those who can't afford it for their animals.


I guess I view life differently. If I CHOOSE to have a child, pet, ficus tree that is my choice and I have a right to make that choice. But, I also feel if I make that choice than I have a RESPONSIBILITY to make sure I can provide for that child or pet. In my opinion that means saving money or getting some sort of insurance for major medical bills, education expenses, proper diet, etc....

Just because you can do something, or even have a right to do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do something. And it certainly doesn't take away the responsibility that comes with that choice!


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I remember my dad once told me "you usually know the right choice because its often the hard choice"
Basically it means just because you want something doesn't mean it's the right thing.

And again, I didn't have money for the purchase price if a puppy laying around. I had to save up for a LONG time to be able to buy from what I consider the type of breeder I think should be breeding. It would have been the "easy" choice to go to BYB instead for 1/4 of the cost. But the right choice (IMO) was the hard choice.

People need to get over instant gratification


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

My goldens are all pets first and foremost too. However, a pet and a show dog should share in common the qualities of soundness, beauty of movement, and sturdy construction. This is not so much for the benefit of the human eye, as it is for the dog to be a pleasure to himself as he ages- with free, true movement and good quality conformation, the dog lives longer pain free. 

I can't get very worked up about the article or begin to see it as controversial, bc to me its truth is self evident. Either invest in a great quality dog or rescue.

I love almost dogs as individuals, but I can't really see any argument supporting the sub par high volume breeder as a source for acquiring one. I do not think it is elitest to say if you are not knowledable enough about dogs to know what health clearances they need, and you are not financially stable enough to get your dogs' health clearances done, then you shouldnt be breeding. That is for the dogs' sake- humans aside.

Hopefully, much more will be asked of a breeder, but that is brass tacks.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Jennifer1 said:


> But the right choice (IMO) was the hard choice.
> 
> People need to get over instant gratification


I thought about breeding goldens seriously in 2005. It is now 2013, and it took that long - focused and devoted effort to meet the standards. By some people's lights, I could have missed out on all the learning and the work.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Golden999 said:


> "Breathing air is a privilege and not a right! Someone paid for those trees to be planted that produce that oxygen!"
> 
> "Having food to eat is a privilege and not a right! Someone paid to plant that corn you want to eat."
> 
> ...


I believe that anybody who is willing and able to provide at least the minimum care that a dog requires should not be denied the joys of dog ownership. The human animal bond is amazing, and studies have shown that owning pets provides important health benefits to people.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I was a little worried about opening this thread. I thought it would degrade into nastiness, and I want to applause those of you who have participated for being kind and respectful. 

Also, thanks to the OP for posting this. I read the article and I liked it. 

I have a rescue. He cost me $350 and at 1 year old (in 37 days) he will have a knee surgery that will cost me a few thousand dollars. He was born with bum knees that put too much pressure on his tendons/ligaments so they tore. I could not afford the surgery. There are avenues (financial aid) available and if you want to keep your pet, you find a way to pay for things. I sold possessions. I reached out to non-profits for grants. I reached out to my rescue for help. They didn't ask I give Bear up. Instead they referred me to their surgeon, who graciously gave us a discount (and donated his time) on the surgery. Among other blessings - the surgery isn't going to kill us now. So there are ways to pay for these unexpected expenses. There are also organizations whose sole purpose is to help owners pay for vet bills. Turn to those before you turn to a rescue. 

I told you our story, to talk about the owner surrenders. I think most rescues mission is to provide proper homes for their animals. If an owner either cannot pay for a medical need or refuses to pay for a medical need - why would the rescue provide the medical support but leave the dog in a situation where it may not get treatment the next time around? I had more ppl than I care to think about, tell me to put Bear to sleep because of how expensive he has become. I refused because Bear is worth every penny. Since his knee problem is genetic, we probably wouldn't have this issue if we got a puppy from a reputable breeder whose dogs are conformationally sound. We're in $5-7k total so far (just with his knees and after care costs) when the purchase price of a puppy from a reputable breeder is normally around $1500. 

Do I regret adopting Bear? Nope. The $350 I paid to the rescue went to help save other retrievers. A worthwhile goal, for sure. 


I re-read everything, and to me it makes sense and comes across like I want to, so I hope no one takes it as ill will. 


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## JessCDoyle (May 21, 2013)

That it does Brave! Thank you for giving such a loving and caring home / family. If anything I realize that my situation is closer to yours which is definitely the reason, along with many others I will find a reputable breeder for our next pup. Thanks for sharing your story


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