# Help enlighten me



## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

I belong to dog food group on FB and the latest trend is avoiding foods with peas. Dory's food just started adding peas apparently.. so what's the deal with peas? Why are they bad? :/ 

Signed, 

One confused dog mom who is a fan of peas for people


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I've heard it's bad for fertility. Obviously that wouldn't concern Dory


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

The biggest concern now is an apparent connection between Goldens being fed food that had plant based proteins added and/or the food had a lot of peas and pea products added, Some examples of plant based proteins are garbanzo beans, lentils, soy protein, chickpeas to name a few. 

This seems to lead to low taurine levels, which in turn is connected to Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM). Several breeers have experienced DCM and low taurine levels while feeding grain free foods. Lots and lots of discussion on Golden FB discussion groups.

This is the initial post I saw, copied from a public posting on FB

"Posted by Laura Franchi.

Please read - Important Information that should be shared! Recently a number of Golden Retrievers have come up with low taurine levels and Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM). These dogs are not all related but one thing they all had in common --- they were being fed a food that had plant based proteins added, meat was not the main ingredient in the food or the food had a lot of peas and pea products added. Some examples of plant based proteins are garbanzo beans, lentils, soy protein, chickpeas to name a few. These owners were feeding highly rated foods and several brands are involved. Golden Retrievers are one of the breeds of dogs that have been found to suffer taurine deficiency without dietary intake. Taurine is found mainly in muscle meat. Some dog food companies do add taurine to their foods but it is not required. Everyone needs to start reading dog food labels carefully. Dogs are carnivores and do not need a lot of plant based proteins. Be certain the food you are feeding has adequate amounts of meat protein. Do not just look at the protein content of the food. If a food has meat and plant proteins added the protein content is the combination of the two. You may be feeding very little meat protein and lots of legume protein. If you have a concern, get a taurine test on your dog. You may be saving its life. Prior to taurine testing do not change food, supplement with taurine or start feeding meat to your dog's diet. This will skew the results. Some of the dogs tested had low taurine and DCM but showed no signs or symptoms. They were tested because the owners were feeding the same food as others that had found low taurine/DCM in their dogs. If you are feeding raw be certain the diet contains adequate amounts of meats that are high in taurine. DCM caused by taurine deficiency may be reversed if diagnosed early and treated. Please also share this information with your puppy buyers and your vet."

If you are interested, lots of discussion on this on the Golden Retriever Discussion Group, if you are a member, and on the public posting on Rob Paterson's FB page.


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## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

Wow! That's scary stuff. Meat(salmon) is the main ingredient in her food, but peas & garbanzo beans are both listed once. Gah!


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## Parker16 (May 30, 2016)

I had no idea peas aren't good for dogs. In fact I thought quite the opposite :-o I even occasionally add a spoon of frozen peas to his food along with his regular kibble. TOTW has peas as a listed ingredient too.


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## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

Parker16 said:


> I had no idea peas aren't good for dogs. In fact I thought quite the opposite :-o I even occasionally add a spoon of frozen peas to his food along with his regular kibble. TOTW has peas as a listed ingredient too.


The salmon didn't have it in her last batch, it's now been added. A lot, and I mean a lot, of good kibble has this as an added ingredient.


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

Does Dory have a grain issue? I can't remember. I was going to recommend a food from the same brand I feed (the non grain free ones don't have peas of any kind) but it does have grains in it. The particular food I want to recommend is salmon based as well.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I don't mean to sound out of place here. This sounds like stuff we always hear about everything is bad. Don't feed purina because it kills pets. A lot of scare tactics. Or one I saw the other day about don't eat ketchup because it has sugar. Don't get me wrong they might actually be bad but sounds like a scare tactic.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

If meat wasn't listed as first ingredient in my mind it's not a high quality food.


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## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

aesthetic said:


> Does Dory have a grain issue? I can't remember. I was going to recommend a food from the same brand I feed (the non grain free ones don't have peas of any kind) but it does have grains in it. The particular food I want to recommend is salmon based as well.


She does. Grain, Chicken, Corn, and water(kidding!) But she's super sensitive! Gah!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Cpc1972 said:


> If meat wasn't listed as first ingredient in my mind it's not a high quality food.


Many of these foods do have meat listed as the first ingredient, but when you add up all the peas and other legumes, they move right up there. The manufacturers split them out so it appears that they are a lesser component than they actually are.

I am old enough to remember the taurine issue back in the 70's when lamb based food became popular, especially with cats.

This article discusses taurine and DCM. 

Dilated Cardiomyopathy - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

"In some dogs, DCM is due to a nutritional deficiency. Taurine is an amino acid required for the development and function of the myocardium. Consequently, pets may develop DCM on taurine-deficient diets, such as vegetarian diets, and may benefit from appropriate supplementation. Some breeds, such as American Cocker Spaniels and Golden Retrievers, may have a predisposition to taurine-deficiency, possibly through defects in metabolizing taurine. Many, but not all, cases that are supplemented with taurine will improve. Some also need carnitine supplementation. If your pet is diagnosed with DCM, testing for a taurine deficiency may be warranted. Breeds such as Doberman Pinschers and Great Danes do not have taurine-deficient cardiomyopathy. Some cats may develop taurine-deficient DCM, although this has become rare as taurine is now added to virtually all quality cat foods (see Feline Cardiomyopathy)."


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

An example was given of Acana Pork and Butternut Squash. Of the first 11 ingredients, 7 are legumes: Deboned Pork*, Pork Meal, Whole Green Peas, Red Lentils, Pork Liver*, Pork Fat, Pinto Beans, Chickpeas, Herring Oil, Green Lentils, Whole Yellow Peas, Whole Butternut Squash.

Not every Golden will be affected, but some will. Well worth being aware of the potential issues.


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

Kalhayd said:


> She does. Grain, Chicken, Corn, and water(kidding!) But she's super sensitive! Gah!


All the foods from this brand are corn, wheat and soy free. They do have grain free, chicken free food too, but those ones have peas. Boo :-(


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## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

After researching, I do not think the issue is the peas, but the fact that they're using it as a protein source and lowering the meat(s) in replace.. Thus causing the issues. Gah. TOTW didn't add peas in their Salmon formula, now they do... Maybe I'll discuss with our vet about using a supplement for taurine.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Good info... I will check our food. I keep peas in the freezer and use them as treats for training! Oops


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## Golden_Gypsy (Dec 3, 2016)

Tahnee GR said:


> If you are interested, lots of discussion on this on the Golden Retriever Discussion Group, if you are a member, and on the public posting on Rob Paterson's FB page.


Tahnee, is this group on Facebook? I'm concerned about the food I'm feeding my girl, and I want to look into this further. I tried to find a group titled "golden retriever discussion group" on FB but couldn't find anything other than one titled "golden retriever discussion group 2". 

Thanks!!


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

I find it extremely frustrating that most of the single meat protein foods have peas/pea protein/pea flour and/or lentils, etc. My dog can't have chicken, beef, lamb, or fish because of itching and/or stomach issues. Duck also causes low level itchiness. That leaves me with few choices, especially once you factor in the calcium/phosphorous content. Now there's the taurine issue, on top of that. There is slim possibility that I can find a food that meets every requirement. I have spent dozens of hours looking at dog foods and comparing ingredients. In the past, I have fed Eukanuba, and find myself wishing I could just feed that and be done with it. My luck to get the one puppy in the litter with allergies.


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

The use of plant based proteins are much cheaper for the pet food industry. 

Plant based proteins also contain starch, carbohydrates and "antinutrients" ( Phytic Acid/Phytate, Lectins, induce increased glycemic load)

Are Potatoes Good For Dogs? (And Other Questions About Starch) - Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Chloe is on the PPP Sensitive salmon and rice. I just looked and it doesn't look like it has any lentils in it.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Oh my, I remember that! I thought it was cats only... 
Well we have peas in our food but no legumes and it's way down the list. It's not a grain free food but doesn't have wheat, corn or soy. Thanks for the info., it's time for more research... new food and/or supplements. Great thread!


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

Some of you may find the following of interest:


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## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

Cpc1972 said:


> Chloe is on the PPP Sensitive salmon and rice. I just looked and it doesn't look like it has any lentils in it.


I looked at the ingredients here and looks like it still has stuff Dory cannot have. Gah. This is impossible. I'm totally afraid of Raw diets(Afraid I won't get her the correct nutrients, etc), but it seems like that'd probably be best for our sensitive girl!


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Kalhayd said:


> I looked at the ingredients here and looks like it still has stuff Dory cannot have. Gah. This is impossible. I'm totally afraid of Raw diets(Afraid I won't get her the correct nutrients, etc), but it seems like that'd probably be best for our sensitive girl!


Is it the grains? When Chloe was about 6 months we switched to a grain free food. Thinking maybe it was grains. But for Chloe it turned out it was any kind of chicken. She can't have chicken meal or chicken fat. It took experimenting a little to find out what it was. Are you sure she can't have grains? The PPP sensitive was one of the few that had no chicken fat or meal. It might be worth a try unless your completly sure she can't have grains.


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## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

We have a whole list of ingredients she cannot have from her allergy test. Grains & chicken are among them.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Kalhayd said:


> We have a whole list of ingredients she cannot have from her allergy test. Grains & chicken are among them.


Oh You had a allergy test. We were close to getting one for Chloe but the PPP Sensitive solved the problem. Being allergic to grains and chicken would be tough.


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## Neeko13 (Jul 10, 2010)

Oh this doesnt sound good....:frown2::frown2: Could someone double check my Acana Grasslands ingredients for me?? Neeko & Molson have been eating that for almost 5 yrs.....ugh...I do see peas, but no other ones, unless someone can tell me otherwise. thanks...

Dog Food Reviews - Acana Grasslands - Powered by ReviewPost


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Kalhayd... I ran across a couple of "poultry free" foods, I'll see if I can find it again and email it to you for you to review.


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

Kalhayd said:


> I looked at the ingredients here and looks like it still has stuff Dory cannot have. Gah. This is impossible. I'm totally afraid of Raw diets(Afraid I won't get her the correct nutrients, etc), but it seems like that'd probably be best for our sensitive girl!


I hear you. I was totally afraid of feeding raw too and started Brisby off on a home cooked diet, then eventually moved her to raw.

Although my girl has different health issues than yours, I can tell you that it made a huge difference in her overall health, skin ( no more hot spots), fur etc. Feeding raw is really easy and not that scary or complex as I thought it may be....and Brisby LOVES her raw food.

I am in Canada therefore I can't recommend to you what I feed ( Big Country Raw) , however there must be good reputable raw food manufacturers in the US that have a good product and will help you nutritionally balance a raw diet. 

Here's a list that may help: 

https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-dog-foods/raw-dog-food/

What is great about raw is that you can buy pure proteins with no other ingredients and/or dinners with specific added ingredients, however most good raw diets do not contain starch or fillers.
With the pure dinners you can add your own combination of fruits, veggies etc. 

It also helps in my case that I have a DVM that totally supports and encourages raw and has gone over Brisby's diet to ensure that it is balanced. She does recommend adding a vitamin/mineral supplement to a raw diet as well as some Omega 3. Her suggested add ons are 1/2 tsp of Dr Peter Dobias "Soul Food" and "Green Min". In your case I would think that you would have to look at the ingredients in whatever supplement you choose to add if you decide to try raw, to ensure that it's something Dory can have.

Wishing you success in finding a diet that works for Dory.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Any advice on Stella & Chewy's Surf 'N Turf Dinners? Looks like a raw diet but comes in frozen patties. No grains or chicken in any form with Taurine added.

I can't handle doing a make it myself raw diet but might be able to pull this off.

Opinions??


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

Nash666 said:


> Oh this doesnt sound good....:frown2::frown2: Could someone double check my Acana Grasslands ingredients for me?? Neeko & Molson have been eating that for almost 5 yrs.....ugh...I do see peas, but no other ones, unless someone can tell me otherwise. thanks...
> 
> Dog Food Reviews - Acana Grasslands - Powered by ReviewPost


From your link above: Acana Grasslands Ingredients:

Ingredients:
Lamb meal, sweet potato, raw de-boned lamb, peas, fresh whole eggs, sun-cured
alfalfa, sunflower oil, fresh de-boned walleye, pumpkin, fresh de-boned northern pike,
apples, carrots, turnip greens, organic sea vegetables (kelp, bladderwrack, dulse),
juniper berries, cranberries, Saskatoon berries, black currants, angelica root, chicory
root, red clover, red raspberry leaf, dandelion root, peppermint leaf, marigold flowers,
chamomile flowers, rosemary extract, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus
faecium.
Vitamins (vit. A, vit. D3, vit. E, niacin, riboflavin, lysine, thiamine mononitrate, vit. B12,
pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin). Minerals (iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, manganese
proteinate, cobalt proteinate, copper proteinate).

Here is what that is as the first ingredient:



> Meat Meal (for example, lamb meal): in this example, all lamb tissues, exclusive of blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents that are cooked (rendered). After cooking, the dried solids are added as "meal" to pet food.


Pet Food (What You Need to Know) for Your Pet's Sake | petMD


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

puddles everywhere said:


> Any advice on Stella & Chewy's Surf 'N Turf Dinners? Looks like a raw diet but comes in frozen patties. No grains or chicken in any form with Taurine added.
> 
> I can't handle doing a make it myself raw diet but might be able to pull this off.
> 
> Opinions??


I can't comment on the Surf N Turf dinner specifically, however one of Brisby's DVMs speaks highly of Stella and Chewys as a good raw food.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

It's 58% fat! but guess that's because it's mostly meat? I've had clients that had dogs with serious allergies and terrible skin and coats. They fed this and truly thought they had gotten a new dog when I came to care for them a few months later. It was shocking.

Gratefully I don't have any allergies but certainly want better health. I don't eat anything I can't pronounce  and know I feel better when I stay away from processed foods... has to be better for Sipsy. Shoot my dog food budget is already twice what I spend for me, why not.


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

puddles everywhere said:


> It's 58% fat! but guess that's because it's mostly meat? I've had clients that had dogs with serious allergies and terrible skin and coats. They fed this and truly thought they had gotten a new dog when I came to care for them a few months later. It was shocking.
> 
> Gratefully I don't have any allergies but certainly want better health. I don't eat anything I can't pronounce  and know I feel better when I stay away from processed foods... has to be better for Sipsy. Shoot my dog food budget is already twice what I spend for me, why not.


The fat content seems excessively high. The BCR that I am feeding Brisby averages 14 - 15% fat. If you'd like to compare the nutritional analysis, take a look here. Along the top you will see Pure, Dinners, Blends. Then choose one and click on the nutritional analysis. The meat this company uses is hormone/antibiotic free...also pasture fed and/or free range poultry, not grain fed which would be something else to look at for those with dogs who have grain allergies. 

BigCountry Dinners


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Kalhayd said:


> After researching,* I do not think the issue is the peas, but the fact that they're using it as a protein source and lowering the meat(s) in replace.. *Thus causing the issues. Gah. TOTW didn't add peas in their Salmon formula, now they do... Maybe I'll discuss with our vet about using a supplement for taurine.


I think you nailed it. It's not that peas are BAD - it's just that they should be fed as part of a balanced diet, which includes an animal-based protein.


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## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

With our sensitive girl, I really do not want to switch a food that she is doing great on. I was reading some comments on the TOTW page and it looks like a lot of people are asking them to remove the peas again.


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

You have been getting me worried about the food I feed mine. Acana Pacifica (Canadian made). It has now got way more pea protein than before but also still has fish. I think there is less fish although it is the number one on the list of ingredients.
My problem is that Grit has ichthyosis as this is the only food I can find (I have tried lots) that suits his skin problem. I cannot tell if there is enough fish in it so that there will not be a problem.
When I wrote to them all I get back is that their food is well balanced!!


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## Melfice (Aug 4, 2012)

Yaichi's Mom said:


> I hear you. I was totally afraid of feeding raw too and started Brisby off on a home cooked diet, then eventually moved her to raw.
> 
> Although my girl has different health issues than yours, I can tell you that it made a huge difference in her overall health, skin ( no more hot spots), fur etc. Feeding raw is really easy and not that scary or complex as I thought it may be....and Brisby LOVES her raw food.
> 
> ...


I moved my pups to a raw food diet about three months ago, and they are doing great on it 

Raw is not that hard to do, and there are a few models a person can follow for their dogs. The PMR (Prey Model Raw) is pretty easy to follow, and I use the BARF model for the most part now. I will be switching around to keep things interesting for my pups. 

Also, I love the video you posted a few months ago with a good raw food recipe I still use today, Yaichi's Mom! It has been working perfect for my pups, and they enjoy their food a lot. Well all three of them do, but our new puppy Teddy Bear is very picky haha! He just wants cooked chicken or other treats instead of the raw food. After a while, Teddy Bear will eat his food but sometimes not at first. 

Oh, and I recommend finding some green tripe for all the raw diet food dog owners out there. Green tripe is one of the best things you can feed your dogs, and they LOVE it!!! I mean love it...even Teddy Bear will eat all his food in seconds, when I add some green tripe to their meals. The only issue with green tripe is that it smells bad, but your dogs will not care about that tho


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

Not to overwrite what your vet has said with her food allergies, but... serum testing for food allergies is 100% worthless. The only true way to tell what a dog is allergic to (with regards to food) is to do a food trial (with a prescription hypoallergenic food) and then challenge each ingredient. So, honestly I would pick a high quality food regardless of what the serum test says OR if you want to, try a food trial. Discuss with your vet.


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

Rainheart said:


> Not to overwrite what your vet has said with her food allergies, but... serum testing for food allergies is 100% worthless. The only true way to tell what a dog is allergic to (with regards to food) is to do a food trial (with a prescription hypoallergenic food) and then challenge each ingredient. So, honestly I would pick a high quality food regardless of what the serum test says OR if you want to, try a food trial. Discuss with your vet.


What are your thoughts on Dr Jean Dodd's Nutriscan, which tests for food intolerance's, not allergies specifically? I know two people who had this test run on their dogs and had great results post.

NutriScan Food Sensitivity and Intolerance Test for Cats and Dogs - Dr. Dodds


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

Melfice said:


> I moved my pups to a raw food diet about three months ago, and they are doing great on it
> 
> Raw is not that hard to do, and there are a few models a person can follow for their dogs. The PMR (Prey Model Raw) is pretty easy to follow, and I use the BARF model for the most part now. I will be switching around to keep things interesting for my pups.
> 
> ...


I am so glad to hear that your guys are doing well on raw!! 

When I first considered going to a raw diet, I was both a bit leery and apprehensive, however it really is quite easy to do and doesn't cost me more than feeding the Orijen that I originally had Brisby on. 

LOL....yes, the green tripe!!....very stinky but it's doggy crack and very, very beneficial.

I hope your Teddy Bear will get to love raw. 

Brisby likes it when I change it up a bit so sometimes I add some bone broth, a bit of sardine and always 2 tbsp of organic whole milk kefir with each meal. She also loves it when I add and organic raw egg ( with crushed up shell)...she will usually lap that up first. 

I have made that recipe as well and Brisby loves it. I don't remember where I posted it so I will add it here for anyone who might be interested in trying it:


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## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

Rainheart said:


> Not to overwrite what your vet has said with her food allergies, but... serum testing for food allergies is 100% worthless. The only true way to tell what a dog is allergic to (with regards to food) is to do a food trial (with a prescription hypoallergenic food) and then challenge each ingredient. So, honestly I would pick a high quality food regardless of what the serum test says OR if you want to, try a food trial. Discuss with your vet.



Thanks for the info.. We did a skin test, not sure if that is what you're discussing. However, trial and error(lots of errors) and she clearly reacts to chicken, soy, and any grains. If she steals a piece of bread, I know, because she digs and digs and digs. SO while we haven't done an official food trial- it is fairly clear what she is sensitive to. Her paws are so red in between the webbing from outdoor allergens. She is a fluffy mess!


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

Yaichi's Mom said:


> What are your thoughts on Dr Jean Dodd's Nutriscan, which tests for food intolerance's, not allergies specifically? I know two people who had this test run on their dogs and had great results post.
> 
> NutriScan Food Sensitivity and Intolerance Test for Cats and Dogs - Dr. Dodds


Briefly looked at it, but any kind of testing for food allergies is just not accurate. I especially am not a fan of anything from hemopet or Dr. Dodds. She just doesn't provide accurate science to back up all her claims.


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

Kalhayd said:


> Thanks for the info.. We did a skin test, not sure if that is what you're discussing. However, trial and error(lots of errors) and she clearly reacts to chicken, soy, and any grains. If she steals a piece of bread, I know, because she digs and digs and digs. SO while we haven't done an official food trial- it is fairly clear what she is sensitive to. Her paws are so red in between the webbing from outdoor allergens. She is a fluffy mess!


I still don't consider skin testing with food allergies to be accurate, either. I would still consider a food trial with her. Sounds like you need to stay away from wheat at the minimum. Good start with finding what she is sensitive, too!


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## golden04 (Sep 9, 2017)

What food brand is this?


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## Caecey (Aug 21, 2011)

My girl Caecey was on TOTW until last summer when I ran across a thread on this forum about taurine deficiency and grain-free diets. I joined the FB group, Taurine Deficiency in Golden Retrievers, where I learned about this issue. Caecey tested low for taurine and her echocardiogram showed low normal contractility. We changed her diet to Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach. Her heart and taurine level have normalized.
This issue is no joke or scam. It is being studied but UC Davis and the FDA. I encourage everyone to research this topic; I’m so glad I did. Here’s a link to an FDA report: 







https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/news-events/fda-investigation-potential-link-between-certain-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy


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