# Weight loss....help...



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I have Lincoln on a new kibble, hes been on it for a while and hes doing well on it so far. I notice less itching. Before he needed a bath every other day because he would get so oily. Its day 4 without a bath and he still feels pretty good. I am having an issue with his weight though. He seems to be losing a bit of weight and I am unsure of what to do about it. He is still adjusting to the food so his poops arent perfect yet but pretty close to it and hes only going twice a day and they are small. 

Im really irritated that I found a kibble that seems to be helping with the itching but now hes losing weight. The kibble is 22/14 protein/fat and has 355 calories per cup...his food is not grain free. Hes getting 3 cups of food daily divided into two meals. Prior to changing over I was adding in canned food but stopped until he adjusted to this food. He was 60-61lbs prior to starting this new food hes now 58-59lbs. Its driving me nuts! You can feel ribs but cant see them...yet. His front end looks like a tank with a twig for a back end. I would like to see him at least up to 63 pounds. 

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to put some weight on him? I could up his food to 4 cups a day but would that really do anything? Im also worried about to much kibble in one sitting hes almost 6 and I worry about bloat with him because of his overly deep chest. 

I was told to maybe add some over cooked oatmeal or rice (something thats already in his food). It was suggested to add more of the protein source into his food but its waaaaay to expensive to do that with the source hes on. If hes this hard to keep weight on neutered I wonder what it would be like had I left him intact

Seriously Lincoln...I find a kibble you are okay on but why you no gain weight?!?!:doh:


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

I would feed more kibble. Maybe a 3rd meal everyother day to start or daily if bloats is a giant fear. 2 cups for 2 feeds a day should not bloats him though.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

What about giving extra kibble out of a kong or some other treat dispensing toy that way he has to eat it way more slowly?


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Yeah, one would never know hes got hypothyroid....

I thought about re adding canned food he normally got 1/4 can daily. Maybe other people will reply with advice to.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Is this food lower calorie than what you were giving before?

When I was growing up we had a German shorthair that we had a hard time keeping weight on. We supplemented her food with cottage cheese and eggs.


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## Jessie'sGirl (Aug 30, 2010)

Maybe his thyroid med needs dose adjustment. Has he had recent bloodwork?


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Jennifer1 said:


> Is this food lower calorie than what you were giving before?
> 
> When I was growing up we had a German shorthair that we had a hard time keeping weight on. We supplemented her food with cottage cheese and eggs.


Its lower calories yeah, his old food was 417 I think this new one is 355



Jessie'sGirl said:


> Maybe his thyroid med needs dose adjustment. Has he had recent bloodwork?


His thyroid levels were within normal.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

A1Malinois said:


> Its lower calories yeah, his old food was 417 I think this new one is 355
> 
> 
> 
> His thyroid levels were within normal.


If my math is correct he was getting 1251 calories per day and is now only getting 1065 per day, that's almost a 15% decrease. It's not surprising he is losing weight


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Jennifer1 said:


> If my math is correct he was getting 1251 calories per day and is now only getting 1065 per day, that's almost a 15% decrease. It's not surprising he is losing weight


No, he was getting 1042 calories a day on the Pro Plan and now hes getting 1065


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

A1Malinois said:


> No, he was getting 1042 calories a day on the Pro Plan and now hes getting 1065


Unless you changed the amount, going by what you've said in this thread 3 cups a day of a food that is 417 calories per cup is 1251.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Also the calories that he is no longer getting from the canned food will add up fast


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Yeah I have no idea how to figure out the calories per can as I do not see it listed on the can (im trying to figure it out now). Maybe I will start to re add the canned food in now and just keep a close eye on the itching. He was being fed 2.5 cups of Pro Plan and now 3 cups of his new food because I noted the calories were a bit lower. Im guessing for the canned food theres at least 350-400 calories per can hes getting 1/4 can in his dinner. 

Heres a couple pics I got of him today while we were doing some training


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Since he's already on a grain inclusive diet I wouldn't add oatmeal or rice, maybe just give him a turkey neck or two as a meal/treat every day, they are cheap and good fat/protein ratio 


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## Wagners Mom2 (Mar 20, 2012)

He looks way thin to me...and I'm a bit surprised that he's lost so quickly. Personally I would bump him to 4 cups plus canned.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I can not vouch for the accuracy of this site but they list all of the various canned foods calories
http://www.petobesityprevention.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Dog_Canned_Pouch_Foods.pdf


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Can you give him some protein, beef, chicken?


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Tuco said:


> Since he's already on a grain inclusive diet I wouldn't add oatmeal or rice, maybe just give him a turkey neck or two as a meal/treat every day, they are cheap and good fat/protein ratio
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Turkey necks are bone heavy and he just craps out undigested bone...



Jennifer1 said:


> I can not vouch for the accuracy of this site but they list all of the various canned foods calories
> http://www.petobesityprevention.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Dog_Canned_Pouch_Foods.pdf


I was JUST looking at that site haha. I found a few of his cans that I use but not the one. So about 350-400 calories as I figured each can



goldensrbest said:


> Can you give him some protein, beef, chicken?


With his allergies I am really nervous to add in another protein but I could always try it. 

This is him a couple weeks ago


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Does he handle pumpkin or yogurt well? Beyond that, my suggestion would be to supplement either with more kibble (in a third meal or frozen in a kong) or with something that is already included in the new kibble. I don't remember Lincoln's story, and for that I apologize; for the itching I've been giving Bear 1 tsp apple cider vinegar in his breakfast. I don't want to push anything because Lincoln is so close to finding the perfect balance. Is the canned food the same as this new kibble?

I wish the best for him and you. 

(((((Hugs)))))


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Brave said:


> Does he handle pumpkin or yogurt well? Beyond that, my suggestion would be to supplement either with more kibble (in a third meal or frozen in a kong) or with something that is already included in the new kibble. I don't remember Lincoln's story, and for that I apologize; for the itching I've been giving Bear 1 tsp apple cider vinegar in his breakfast. I don't want to push anything because Lincoln is so close to finding the perfect balance. Is the canned food the same as this new kibble?
> 
> I wish the best for him and you.
> 
> ...


I have tried ACV and it helped for a bit but now it does nothing. There is no matching canned food for the kibble im feeding. There is however a grain free version but the protein/fat is less then what it is now and even less calories. 

I typically buy whatever wheat and corn free canned food I can find. Usually ends up being Authority puppy or Blue Buffalo homestyle type cans. Someone mentioned adding taters into his kibble to :S


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

A1Malinois said:


> I have tried ACV and it helped for a bit but now it does nothing. There is no matching canned food for the kibble im feeding. There is however a grain free version but the protein/fat is less then what it is now and even less calories.
> 
> I typically buy whatever wheat and corn free canned food I can find. Usually ends up being Authority puppy or Blue Buffalo homestyle type cans. Someone mentioned adding taters into his kibble to :S


You may want to try the grain free, although its fewer calories you can feed more and I've known quite Afew people that it helped their pups itchies.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Tuco said:


> You may want to try the grain free, although its fewer calories you can feed more and I've known quite Afew people that it helped their pups itchies.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yeah thats not possible unless im mixing it in with his current food. The grain free version is 5lbs less and $10 more expensive. It is just not financially possible at this time to do that. Mine has also never done well on grain free foods.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

What about talking to your vet about adding a probiotic? Maybe he's having issues with digestion and absorption of calories. Just a thought, I hope you figure out something for your boy!


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

coaraujo said:


> What about talking to your vet about adding a probiotic? Maybe he's having issues with digestion and absorption of calories. Just a thought, I hope you figure out something for your boy!


He is currently on antibiotics until after Easter. I do add probiotics but I can always add more and even some digestive enzymes...


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

My old girl, Sadie has had trouble with itching, allergies, rashes most of her life. I think I might actually have it under control for the first time. I think I can offer some helpful advise.

First, I'm trying to remember your previous posts about grain-free. For some reason, I'm thinking you are not an advocate grain-free, but I could be wrong. You might want to reconsider that. If that route doesn't work for some reason (I can't think of any reason why your dog would NEED grains) then I would just make sure that your grain inclusive food is something high quality like FROMM or Dr. Tims.

OK, enough about kibble. We beat that up enough around here. The main advise I want to offer is PREbiotics and PRObiotics. I would not rely upon what the dog food manufacturer says they put on or in the kibble. I would find a high quality pre/probiotic supplement and use it for every meal. Since I have started giving this to Sadie she seems to be gaining weight. She was the perfect weight before, but she has probably gained 5 pounds over the past 5 months. I am feeding a different dog food now (Orijen) so that could have something to do with it, but as far as calories, I am feeding her less calories now than when she was on Wellness. I have to keep feeding her a little less every few weeks because she continues to gain weight. I think she has leveled off now. 

Point being, I really think the pre/probiotics improve digestion and help the dog's gut absorb more nutrition out of their food. It can help your dog gain some weight. Also, prebiotics, probiotics, and enzymes are one of the most beneficial things you can offer your dog for skin problems. I am currently using Amazon.com: Jarrow Formulas Inulin and FructoOligoSaccharides (FOS) Powder, 180g (Pack of 2): Health & Personal Care for my pre-biotic and for my Probiotic I use Carmpack Sundae Sunday Carmspack Sundae Sunday . Since you have a Shepherd dog, you may be familiar with Carmen from carmspack.com and the German Shepherd forum. I actually use all of her products: Feed-sentials, Sh-emp Oil and Sunday Sunday. 

Sometimes I use Amazon.com: Garden of Life HSO Probiotic Formula, Primal Defense, 81 g: Health & Personal Care for my probiotic instead. I have also heard really good things about Amazon.com: Mercola - Complete Probiotics For Pets, grams, 90 grams powder: Health & Personal Care 

Prebiotics (FOS/FructoOligoSaccarides and Inulin) are like food for beneficial bacteria in the gut. I think it is important to find a probiotic that claims it will still be effective when exposed to stomach acid. Stomach acid can kill some probiotics. For this reason some probiotics are suggested to take on an empty stomach with large amounts of water. Impractical for the dog owner. So use a probiotic that can be taken with food and will survive stomach acid. 

I feed prebiotics and probiotics with every meal now. I actually believe they have made the biggest difference in Sadie's skin problems and weight gain (even though I didn't want that in my situation) than anything else. 

Since you mention that the dogs poops are still not perfect. I really think the prebiotics and probiotics will cure that. But, I would consider feeding some orgainc canned pumpkin as well. It's fairly cheap. I get it from Vitacost. It can also be purchased on amazon or local health food stores. One can lasts 8-10 meals when giving a heaping tablespoon for each meal. I only use it when I feed raw on the weekends. It works amazingly well. The first weekend I tried to feed raw, both of my dogs started has a couple days of loose stools until I went back to kibble. I thought, "hmmm, I don't think this raw on weekends only thing is gonna work out." But, the next weekend I decided to try a heaping tablespoon of organic canned pumpkin in each raw meal. The raw didn't phase them in the least thereafter. Their poops remain absolutely perfect.

Anyway, I hope this is helpful.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

stealle said:


> My old girl, Sadie has had trouble with itching, allergies, rashes most of her life. I think I might actually have it under control for the first time. I think I can offer some helpful advise.
> 
> First, I'm trying to remember your previous posts about grain-free. For some reason, I'm thinking you are not an advocate grain-free, but I could be wrong. You might want to reconsider that. If that route doesn't work for some reason (I can't think of any reason why your dog would NEED grains) then I would just make sure that your grain inclusive food is something high quality like FROMM or Dr. Tims.
> 
> ...


Dr Tims is not available to me and Fromm is over $80 a bag . As for pre/probiotics I am using one I picked up from my local pharmacy it has Acidophilis (sp?), Bifidus and FOS in it. I do have easy access to this product if it is any good, I do have some hear I was using it a couple years ago

Product Browser

I also ordered this I wanted to try after he adjusts to the food
Rx Essentials for Dogs Powder 8 oz

He has only been on this food for 1 week about. It will take him another week to fully adjust I think since hes so sensitive. Mercola products are good however shipping to Canada and the price of their products are a bit to high for my income


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I just tried to have the Jarrow prebiotics shipped to my address and it said shipping for that product isnt available to Canadian Customers...

I checked the place I order some of my stuff and I can get this will it work okay?

Now INULIN (CERTIFIED ORGANIC) - 227G - DETOX SUPPLEMENTS - DIGESTIVE SUPPLEMENTS - National Nutrition


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

A1Malinois said:


> I just tried to have the Jarrow prebiotics shipped to my address and it said shipping for that product isnt available to Canadian Customers...
> 
> I checked the place I order some of my stuff and I can get this will it work okay?
> 
> Now INULIN (CERTIFIED ORGANIC) - 227G - DETOX SUPPLEMENTS - DIGESTIVE SUPPLEMENTS - National Nutrition


Yes, I think that would work fine. 

I think the problem is, we never know how much of the probiotics ever actually make it to the intestines. With a good pre-biotic, it will definately get to the gut and feed the healthy bacteria that's already there.

I think the "Now" product would be fine. Also, the stuff from your local pharmacy would probably be ok too.

Since your dog is on antibiotics, I would make sure he is getting a probiotic now. Perhaps something in pill form you could give him in between doses of antibiotics. Just make sure to give the probiotics at least several hours before or after antibiotic doses so the antibiotic doesn't kill all the probiotics.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

stealle said:


> Yes, I think that would work fine.
> 
> I think the problem is, we never know how much of the probiotics ever actually make it to the intestines. With a good pre-biotic, it will definately get to the gut and feed the healthy bacteria that's already there.
> 
> ...


Yes, what I can start doing is adding the probiotic 2-3 hours after each dose of antibiotics (twice a day). I will order the Inulin now  and use in in conjunction with the Probiotic I have now with FOS in it. That way I can guarantee at least something it going into his intestinal tract . Will the antibiotic kill prebiotics as well? I knew they killed probiotics


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Would he eat more food,if you gave it to him?


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

A1Malinois said:


> Will the antibiotic kill prebiotics as well? I knew they killed probiotics


No, prebiotics are not alive to begin with so it can't be killed. It is a soluble fiber. It'll get where it needs to go and feed healthy bacteria.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

goldensrbest said:


> Would he eat more food,if you gave it to him?


I have a dog who will eat a whole 40lb bag in one sitting if you allowed him to 



stealle said:


> No, prebiotics are not alive to begin with so it can't be killed. It is a soluble fiber. It'll get where it needs to go and feed healthy bacteria.


I am going to start adding the prebiotic (as soon as it comes) and increase his food by half a cup. I will give it in his treat dispenser at night.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

You've mentioned a couple of times the cost of some foods being too high.
You might want to look into the cost difference between getting on a good food (like Dr Tim's or Fromm etc...) and (possibly) not needing all of the supplements, vs the cost of whatever you are feeding now, plus the supplements.

I'm not even sure you'd be able to do away with supplements but it is worth doing the math.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Supplementation isn't nessesary, I would definately choose a better food w/o supplements than a bad food with supplements. I wouldn't nessesarily used a pro/prebiotic supplement but Instead use a high quality natural source which should be cheaper. Green tripe is very cheap, and full of so many great digestive enzymes, you can get trippet for cheap and a bonus is it has added fish oil for his skin. You can also give some Greek yogurt. Rens pets has Orijen it's a pretty good food for a decent price, you can also try acana or evo. 


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

The tripe will also add weight. If you can't afford those foods even without supplement. You can try earthborn, wellness core or blue wilderness


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Oh yea or nutrisource


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Nutrisource*


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## Wagners Mom2 (Mar 20, 2012)

She has had him on some high dollar foods.... they didn't help his issues either so I believe she is stepping out of her comfort zone in hopes of finding one that works...especially with his skin.


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## Wagners Mom2 (Mar 20, 2012)

PS...if this food doesn't work I say give the California natural chicken and rice puppy a shot.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Jennifer1 said:


> You've mentioned a couple of times the cost of some foods being too high.
> You might want to look into the cost difference between getting on a good food (like Dr Tim's or Fromm etc...) and (possibly) not needing all of the supplements, vs the cost of whatever you are feeding now, plus the supplements.
> 
> I'm not even sure you'd be able to do away with supplements but it is worth doing the math.


Dr Tims isnt available to me I am in Canada. 



Tuco said:


> Supplementation isn't nessesary, I would definately choose a better food w/o supplements than a bad food with supplements. I wouldn't nessesarily used a pro/prebiotic supplement but Instead use a high quality natural source which should be cheaper. Green tripe is very cheap, and full of so many great digestive enzymes, you can get trippet for cheap and a bonus is it has added fish oil for his skin. You can also give some Greek yogurt. Rens pets has Orijen it's a pretty good food for a decent price, you can also try acana or evo.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


He was on Acana and it did nothing for his skin, Orijen is to high in protein for my liking and for his gut. Green Tripe will give him explosive poops. I do give Greek Yogurt but the probiotics in there are not very powerful as it would be in a supplement. 



Wagners Mom said:


> She has had him on some high dollar foods.... they didn't help his issues either so I believe she is stepping out of her comfort zone in hopes of finding one that works...especially with his skin.


Thanks for clarifying that. I have tried high dollar foods. I finally...FINALLY have a food now where he is not itching nearly as bad as he was. I dont even hear him itching at night anymore (which means I can sleep for once). 



Wagners Mom said:


> PS...if this food doesn't work I say give the California natural chicken and rice puppy a shot.


That was one I was looking into as it is a very basic food. However, I wanted to try a protein source hes never had. Ever...

I took him into the vet today when I ran in for some papers, hes 61lbs according to their scale. I do think their scale can be off sometimes by a pound so I am saying 60-61lbs.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

A1Malinois said:


> Dr Tims isnt available to me I am in Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Try kefir it's a type of nutrient filled yogurt, it's comparable to probiotic supplements.i think Many human supplements may not be as effective with dogs because they have a much higher (more basic) pH than dogs which can kill some cultures.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Tuco said:


> Try kefir it's a type of nutrient filled yogurt, it's comparable to probiotic supplements.i think Many human supplements may not be as effective with dogs because they have a much higher (more basic) pH than dogs which can kill some cultures.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I saw Kefir at the health food store and the jar was huge would expire before I used up half of it


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

A1Malinois said:


> I saw Kefir at the health food store and the jar was huge would expire before I used up half of it


It takes about a month for it to go bad, it's good people food too


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

stealle said:


> Yes, I think that would work fine.
> 
> I think the problem is, we never know how much of the probiotics ever actually make it to the intestines. With a good pre-biotic, it will definately get to the gut and feed the healthy bacteria that's already there.
> 
> ...


I got the order of Inulin this afternoon so I will be starting that this evening  Its powder and kinda tastes like sugar....I may eat it...


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I'm glad to hear his current food is (mostly) agreeing with Link, that must be a big weight off of your shoulders! Hopefully he can put on some weight soon.


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## Hannahwdel (Mar 25, 2013)

With my dog, I will mix some water in there or some extra kibble. She is a border collie golden mix so she only weighed 37lbs when we got her. By doing this she got up to about 45lbs in a month. Works well for me!


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