# ABC Golden Retrievers-any reviews?



## chris k (Mar 6, 2012)

We are considering purchasing a trained golden from ABC golden retrievers. It is a lot of money ($8000), but they raise the dog in their house while they train it for 7 months and give a 7 year health warranty. I just wanted to see if anyone has experience with them or purchased a golden from them, and if so, was it worth the money? Thanks.


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## Bentley's Mom (May 19, 2011)

Wow that's alot of money. What are they trained to do? What about the parents, do they have all clearances?


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

When it comes to started dogs, you are the judge of its' value to you. Make sure you go and see the dog first hand prior to buying. 

For me, If I was spending $8,000 on a dog it would have at least a advanced Title (MH, UDX, etc.) or two on it. That price for a started puppy is over the top IMHDAO. 

A friend of mine just sold a 10 month old pup, house trained, basic ob and basic field skills for $1,500. And the pup was out of cleared, titled parents.


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## chris k (Mar 6, 2012)

Yes, they do another check at 6 months also. They train them with basic and advanced commands, walk on and off leash, socialize and house manners. I have an 18 month old baby so the thought of the dog coming in trained is great. It is a lot of money but worth it for a quality, trained dog, in my opinion. Just wanted to see if anyone has gotten a trained dog from them and if they were great.


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## chris k (Mar 6, 2012)

I'm open to getting a trained starter pup elsewhere, but really like the fact that the puppy is trained while living in their home, not boarded with a ton of other dogs and not socialized. Plus the health guarantee. But, if anyone knows of anything similar that costs less please let me know.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Goldensunny said:


> I'm open to getting a trained starter pup elsewhere, but really like the fact that the puppy is trained while living in their home, *not boarded with a ton of other dogs and not socialized*. Plus the health guarantee. But, if anyone knows of anything similar that costs less please let me know.


Dogs need socialization to be well trained regardless of who trains them. That's a pretty price for for basic and advanced....and remember you must keep the training up even after the dog enters your home especially at that age.


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## GinnyinPA (Oct 31, 2010)

If you prefer a dog that has already been trained, and don't want to deal with a puppy, you might try rescue. They sometimes get dogs that have been trained but have to be given up because the owner is ill or is military being sent overseas. Also some breeders keep a puppy that they intend to show in conformation, but when it gets older they decide that it isn't show quality after all so they sell it.


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## sameli102 (Aug 23, 2009)

Wow, pretty much a thousand dollars a month in training. The problem I would find is that once in your home if you don't continue the training it can be undone quite easily in a young dog. I've seen very calm level headed dogs become unruly and wild under some influences. Just like when a dog is trained professionally and does wonderful for the trainer but when handed over to the owner and they don't train the owner how to handle them the dogs are right back where they started.
With an 18 month old I'd sooner look for a young, calm, but grown dog and take it through obedience classes myself so I learned along with him.


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## UplandHntr (Feb 24, 2011)

all of the pups on the website are less than a year old yet they claim theyre adults. 
7 months old and trained?? How many months of training does a 7 mo old pup have??

You asked so...... RUN AWAY !
There are so many other options...and youll save $7k +/-


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

Wow! I live in southern CA and I have never heard of them but took a peek at their website. I didn't notice what type of training methods they use and do they follow up with training the family to follow through with the techniques they used? Even if a dog is trained for one person, ie the trainer, it doesn't mean the dog will listen to the next person unless they carry over the same skills. You might want to ask about their follow-up training. 

If you decide to go with them let us know how it works out...

Edit: I would also check out the clearances for the parents of these pups....


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## coffenut (Jan 3, 2012)

Goldensunny said:


> I'm open to getting a trained starter pup elsewhere, but really like the fact that the puppy is trained while living in their home, not boarded with a ton of other dogs and not socialized. Plus the health guarantee. But, if anyone knows of anything similar that costs less please let me know.


I highly recommend that you consider a rescue Golden. So many are given up and are needed loving homes and are presocialized and already trained.


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## chris k (Mar 6, 2012)

Yes they send videos ofnthe training and we have to commit to 2 week homework with the dog when we get it. They also offer lifetime follow up assistance. The parents have health clearances and I think these particular puppies were from Emerald Acres based on the K9 database.


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## OldeEnglishD (Aug 21, 2011)

coffenut said:


> I highly recommend that you consider a rescue Golden. So many are given up and are needed loving homes and are presocialized and already trained.


Agreed 100% We rescued Griffey when my youngest son was 17 months old and he has fit in wonderfully with our family. He is best friends with both my sons, loves being around them, is a perfect gentleman in the house, walks well on a leash, and is everything we ever could have hoped for in a dog. His adoption fee was $125 from the Humane Society. Is he worth $8,000? Yep! Am I glad I didn't spend $8,000 on him? Yep! :


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## chris k (Mar 6, 2012)

Most rescues don't want to give to a family with children younger than 6 and I don't want to risk putting my baby around a dog that might have been abused and react aggressively when the baby trips on them. I admire those who rescue goldens, and would do it in a heartbeat if I didn't have a baby


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

One other option to consider...sometimes breeders have older puppies that need a home. My pup is from a breeder. He was 10 months old when I brought him home. His cost was way less than $8000. Boy, don't let my pup's breeder find out she didn't charge me enough for my pup...

He was fully house trained and is a real love bug...

I wish you the best of luck in your search. Choosing a pup can be a daunting task. I think getting an older pup under your situation is a good option.


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## Mosby's Mom (Oct 19, 2011)

BayBeams said:


> One other option to consider...sometimes breeders have older puppies that need a home. My pup is from a breeder. He was 10 months old when I brought him home. His cost was way less than $8000. Boy, don't let my pup's breeder find out she didn't charge me enough for my pup...
> 
> He was fully house trained and is a real love bug...
> 
> I wish you the best of luck in your search. Choosing a pup can be a daunting task. I think getting an older pup under your situation is a good option.


Agree. You should call around to some local breeders and ask if they have any older puppies or adult dogs available - I know many, many breeders I came across did (although I am in MD).

To me, it really sounds like these people are taking advantage of the fact that they live in a wealthier area of the country where rich and/or famous people are willing to shell out 8k for a "trained" dog.... I mean, even outside of DC I never came across anyone selling a dog for 8k.


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## Aislinn (Nov 13, 2010)

A young Golden, or any other larger breed, is going to accidently knock down your 17 month old, trained or not. An older puppy is going to chew their toys, carry them around in their mouth and possible take food away from them. A puppy is another child in the house. They are mouthy and very active. They act before they think, like a child. I would suggest reading some threads, especially the ones about teenage pups. You are looking at spending a lot of money and are asking what we think. Read as many threads on puppies under a year old and you will get a basic idea of what a Golden is like before it is an adult. I know it comes 'trained' but there is also the teenage time I talked about above when selective hearing comes into play. I would suggest you also look at the adult Goldens in your area. I just rescued a seven year old who is wonderful with children. My son adopted a nine year old who is wonderful with children. Many have been raised with them and love them. You also need to make sure no matter what dog you get that there is always supervision with the puppy/dog and your child. Best of luck and keep us posted.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Goldensunny said:


> Most rescues don't want to give to a family with children younger than 6 and I don't want to risk putting my baby around a dog that might have been abused and react aggressively when the baby trips on them. I admire those who rescue goldens, and would do it in a heartbeat if I didn't have a baby


If you adopt from a rescue, the dogs should be fostered in a home and many of the foster homes have small children. I have never fostered a golden yet (out of over 50) that reacted aggressively to children, no matter what. I had some that I wouldn't place in a home with small children because they were too mouthy or hyper, but never aggressive. I have also placed many in homes with small children because I knew that they would be wonderful with them.

I have two rescued goldens. Both are therapy dogs who work with elementary aged children. They light up as soon as they hear a baby coo.

This is a picture of Danny the first time he saw a baby up close. My sister was giving a bottle to my grand niece and he could hardly contain himself, he wanted to lick her so badly.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Goldensunny said:


> ...and I don't want to risk putting my baby around a dog that might have been abused and react aggressively when the baby trips on them. I admire those who rescue goldens, and would do it in a heartbeat if I didn't have a baby


UGH! :no:

Let me tell you about my vicious rescue: 

The first night that we brought Chance home, (he was both a _rescue_ and _free_), he was in considerable pain because he had severe elbow dysplasia, (he had a vet appt. the next morning). He was limping pretty badly. My daughter, Chance and I were all in the living room together. Chance was asleep on the floor. My daughter, who was 9 at the time, was dancing around. She lost her balance and fell right on top of Chance's bad elbow. 

He woke up startled, cried out and then walked away. He didn't lash out or become aggressive to my daughter, he chose to _ walk away_. My daughter started to cry because she knew she caused him a lot of pain. Do you know what Chance did next? He went up to her and kissed her face. Yep, after she, someone he barely knew, just caused him considerable pain. 

So when someone says that they don't want a rescue because they don't want "to risk putting my baby around a dog that might have been abused and react aggressively...", it really rubs me the wrong way. IMO, a rescue or an older dog from a breeder, one that their temperament is rock solid around children, and there are plenty of those available, would be your best bet. No matter how well trained this dog you are planning to get is going to be, he will still be entering your life when he is in full teenage mode. 

Have fun with that...


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Goldensunny said:


> Most rescues don't want to give to a family with children younger than 6 and I don't want to risk putting my baby around a dog that might have been abused and react aggressively when the baby trips on them. I admire those who rescue goldens, and would do it in a heartbeat if I didn't have a baby


Buddy my rescue was never around kids before I got him. He behaves better around kids than adults. He likes to look into your face so with adults he jumps but with kids he doesn't have too. 

I met a woman who bought her lab puppy and then sent it to a training school at 5 months of age because she worked full time and wanted to do the very best for her 1st dog. This place came highly recommended. Allegedly the dog was going to be in house and not kenneled. If the dog was in actual kennel environment it would have given the puppy more space.- It spent much of it time in a crate unless it was being trained. She said the dog she got back was not her dog her spirit was broken. Yes the dog was obedient but she was no longer a dog. The dog is now 6 years old and has fear issues. She is scared of men and extremely head shy. Very sad.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

What would be a deal breaker for me in this case, is the fact that you don't get to experience the first essential months with your puppy. Ok, it's hard work, but it was also great for bonding. We went to classes together, we went everywhere together. I would not have liked to miss that baby time. 
But then, I only got Tess two years ago, my first dog. I never got a dog before, because I was working full time and my kids were little. Now I've got much more time and grown kids, so no worries there. The pup may behave perfectly with the breeder after all those months, but he is not bonded with you, so my guess is that you still need to put a lot of work in.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

MikaTallulah said:


> Buddy my rescue was never around kids before I got him. He behaves better around kids than adults. He likes to look into your face so with adults he jumps but with kids he doesn't have too.
> 
> I met a woman who bought her lab puppy and then sent it to a training school at 5 months of age because she worked full time and wanted to do the very best for her 1st dog. This place came highly recommended. Allegedly the dog was going to be in house and not kenneled. If the dog was in actual kennel environment it would have given the puppy more space.- It spent much of it time in a crate unless it was being trained. She said the dog she got back was not her dog her spirit was broken. Yes the dog was obedient but she was no longer a dog. The dog is now 6 years old and has fear issues. She is scared of men and extremely head shy. Very sad.


Just a defense on this, though. I train puppies in my home for a local trainer. I only crate them when they are going to be left alone or when they need some quiet time (and of course at night). They live in the house with me and learn how to be nice house pets. Not all places are bad that do boarding training. 

I personally would prefer that the owners take their dogs to a class and learn how to interact with them, but usually they don't have the time or energy to do that. Instead I train their puppies and then send them home after working with the owners. All I can hope is that they will follow through on everything I have taught the puppies.


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## jacksonjack (Dec 14, 2011)

I guess I have a few thoughts on this.....
The first is that if you think its worth that amount of money then it is. Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them

The second is I would be more worried about your childs behaviors than the dogs. Goldens are great and tolerate family life but they are dogs. My friend has a granddaughter that lives with her, she is 2 years old. I've witnessed her do a lot of typical 2 year old stuff, grab the dog by the ear, grab him by the tail and try to pull him around, offer snacks then withdrawl them just when the dog starts to accept them, hide the dogs toys. They don't call them the terrible two's for nothing. 

And finally, To me a pup is like a child in a way. We are given a gift to take care of. We love it and nurture it, we teach it and train it, we form a deep bond, we take pride in what we have done and what they have become. I would never give that to someone else. 

Recues are a different story. They are older usually and make great dogs to.

If you want a younger dog maybe you should wait until your child is older. Don't miss out on the gift that is a puppy.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

jacksonjack said:


> We are given a gift to take care of. We love it and nurture it, we teach it and train it, we form a deep bond, we take pride in what we have done and what they have become...Recues are a different story....


Oh, I don't think they're different at all...that about sums up rescues, too.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

fostermom said:


> Just a defense on this, though. I train puppies in my home for a local trainer. I only crate them when they are going to be left alone or when they need some quiet time (and of course at night). They live in the house with me and learn how to be nice house pets. Not all places are bad that do boarding training.
> 
> I personally would prefer that the owners take their dogs to a class and learn how to interact with them, but usually they don't have the time or energy to do that. Instead I train their puppies and then send them home after working with the owners. All I can hope is that they will follow through on everything I have taught the puppies.


My statements were over the OPs fear of getting a rescue and thinking a fully trained dog would be safe around kids and problem free. I know there are tons of great in-home trainers like yourself. The person this woman went to was allegedly very good but wasn't. 

I do see your point.


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## kdel (Jul 26, 2011)

Has anyone else gone to their website and watched the videos? I don't know maybe it's just me but in one video of Rocco, third one down in a mall (there are 2 in the mall - the 2nd one) does it look like the dog is sort of flinching, shying away from the trainers hand at the very end? I hope I'm wrong. Maybe someone with a better eye can take a look.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

kdel said:


> ...does it look like the dog is sort of flinching, shying away from the trainers hand at the very end?



It certainly looks that way to me, too. It happened right when he was putting the leash back on. Hmmmmm...


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

The question about Rocco made me realize where I recognized the name of this breeder: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/choosing-golden-retriever-breeder-puppy/47569-anyone-heard-abc-golden-retrievers.html There was another thread before this one where someone commented on Rocco flinching. I can't find it because ABC is too short of a word. Grrr....

I don't have an opinion one way or another on this breeder. It seems really expensive, to the point of ridiculousness actually, and I question how trained a puppy will be at 7 months.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> The question about Rocco made me realize where I recognized the name of this breeder: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/choosing-golden-retriever-breeder-puppy/47569-anyone-heard-abc-golden-retrievers.html There was another thread before this one where someone commented on Rocco flinching. I can't find it because ABC is too short of a word. Grrr....


Yup, reminded me of that thread, too. It wasn't until I read the dog's name that it all came back to me.


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## kdel (Jul 26, 2011)

kwhit said:


> It certainly looks that way to me, too. It happened right when he was putting the leash back on. Hmmmmm...


 
Yes that is exactly when I saw it too. I also thought the dog's body language at times appeared nervous/fearful. It's subtle but to my untrained eye I think it's there and it's upsetting.


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## ABC Golden Retrievers (Nov 30, 2011)

I usually stay out of internet discussion forums, but I wanted to address the comments being made about Rocco. I brought Rocco into our trained Golden program as a one year old dog who had not worked out as a show dog for another breeder. He is a super sweet dog but he has a softer temperament and when we started working with him lacked confidence. He had not been in many busy situations like the mall we brought him to so we spent a lot of time there to get him socialized and used to being around that many people. Our training methods are gentle and we don't use harsh corrections. I looked at the video in question again and I also saw the flinch. He flinched because he was startled by the three young men that were walking by and talking loudly. That is not typical of our dogs and after a few more trips to the mall, Rocco got over being nervous in public.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Flinching aside, ABC Goldens, 8000 dollars for a trained pup, less than one year of age???


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## ABC Golden Retrievers (Nov 30, 2011)

And what do you think someone would end up paying if they purchased a puppy from a reputable breeder, sent it to a trainer for seven or eight months to live in their house with their family and children during training, and had their vet do all of the regular puppy care plus hip and elbow x-rays? I don't know many other trainers that have the dogs they board in their house with them. Around here, (Southern California), someone would just about break even with what we are charging if they could even find a trainer that would bring the dog into their home. We also provide lifetime follow up support and warranty health for seven years.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

ABC Golden Retrievers said:


> And what do you think someone would end up paying if they purchased a puppy from a reputable breeder, sent it to a trainer for seven or eight months to live in their house with their family and children during training, and had their vet do all of the regular puppy care plus hip and elbow x-rays? I don't know many other trainers that have the dogs they board in their house with them. Around here, (Southern California), someone would just about break even with what we are charging if they could even find a trainer that would bring the dog into their home. We also provide lifetime follow up support and warranty health for seven years.


Actually you are cheaper than this breeder/trainer.

Trained Young Adults


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I put little value in radiographing hips and elbows in a six, seven month old dog....


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Actually you are cheaper than this breeder/trainer.
> 
> Trained Young Adults


I think they appear to be very different outfits. I don't see ABC discounting their dogs in a March Madness sale (which is just weird to me....these are dogs, not shoes) or claiming to have "Champion Dogs" when they really have "International Champions" which while it might seem like I'm splitting hairs, an International Champion is SO not the same thing as an AKC Champion....not even close. An AKC championship is much more difficult to obtain and is much more competitive. An International Championship can be obtained in one weekend.

I still don't have an opinion one way or another on an $8,000 puppy, it seems like a lot of money to me for a 7 month old pup. But at a minimum it appears based on the website that ABC believes all breeding stock should have the health clearances recommended by the GRCA, which is a good thing.


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## ABC Golden Retrievers (Nov 30, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy - Thanks, we are very different than the above kennel. We don't place our dogs with just anyone. We don't have a kennel set up so the dogs are with our family in our house and we crate only at night until 16 weeks. After that they are loose in the house full time. We have a questionnaire similar to most breeders and we get to know our clients during the training process. We encourage local clients to come out on the weekends and meet us for lessons with their dog while it is still in training. We will also take the dog to local clients for lessons in their home if they are in the San Diego/Orange County/Los Angeles area. For clients too far to drive out weekly, we send video lessons and updates so they can see the process. We also make the new owners commit to doing two training lessons per day with their new dog for the first two weeks, and then at least two training lessons per week for the rest of the dog's life. I do always tell people that the training will regress if they don't use it. Most people take the investment seriously and continue to work the dog after it comes home. 

Sally's Mom - I see juvenile x-rays as a piece in the puzzle. They give you the most information combined with parental health clearances, pedigree research and research where you compare the current juvenile x-rays to juvenile x-rays in the past. We are also fortunate to have a very good veterinarian that has experience x-raying young dogs. We have been placing trained Goldens for 13 years now and our health screening system seems to be working well with this model. I do tell clients that we can't catch everything, (nor can anyone), so we also have the seven year warranty.


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## embreeo (Aug 19, 2006)

UplandHntr said:


> all of the pups on the website are less than a year old yet they claim theyre adults.
> 7 months old and trained?? How many months of training does a 7 mo old pup have??
> 
> You asked so...... *RUN AWAY !*
> There are so many other options...and youll save $7k +/-


It really bugs me when people say things like this without even knowing the breeder/trainer. Do you have any PERSONAL knowledge of ABC Goldens, aside from scanning their website? I've seen this happen repeatedly on this forum, not just with this particular breeder/trainer, but with others as well. IMO, people should not bad-mouth breeders unless they are not following GRCA's Code of Ethics, or they have personal knowledge of said breeder.

Although the price is steep, as one other poster said, "When it comes to started dogs, you are the judge of its' value to you." And another said, "The first is that if you think its worth that amount of money then it is. Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them."

I have no idea what the 7 year health warranty covers, but assuming it covers hips, elbows, heart and eyes, I'd say that is definitely worth something. The standard puppy contracts I've seen in my area only guarantee for 2 years.

And last but not least, I know for a fact that Golden Rescue in my area has an unwritten rule that they do not adopt out to families with children under age 10.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Honestly, I would assume anyone willing to pay that much more over a normal purchase price so they don't have to do the "work" involved with raising a puppy, is simply not committed to the new puppy in the first place. Sure a puppy requires effort and attention, but if its a "chore" that you just can't be bothered to go through, than I'm not sure you are going to be up for exercising the half grown puppy, you get for 8k dollars. I'm not the type of person that thinks a dog is right for everyone. If you don't have the time or motivation to house break a puppy (which isn't fun, but NOT hard), then get a cat from a shelter, and donate that 8k dollars to needy animals or children or something.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

embreeo said:


> It really bugs me when people say things like this without even knowing the breeder/trainer. Do you have any PERSONAL knowledge of ABC Goldens, aside from scanning their website? I've seen this happen repeatedly on this forum, not just with this particular breeder/trainer, but with others as well. IMO, people should not bad-mouth breeders unless they are not following GRCA's Code of Ethics, or they have personal knowledge of said breeder.
> 
> Although the price is steep, as one other poster said, "When it comes to started dogs, you are the judge of its' value to you." And another said, "The first is that if you think its worth that amount of money then it is. Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them."
> 
> ...


People routinely come on here and ask for opinions about breeders. If all anyone ever did was say shiny happy things then this area of the site would lose a lot of it's value to people that are new to goldens. 

No one that I saw was badmouthing anyone. They questioned the price, which I imagine even ABC Goldens would agree is significantly more than most breeders in southern california charge (not that it's worth it or not, but it IS more), and commented on a puppy in video looking like he flinched when the trainer was putting the leash on him. None of that is bad mouthing. If someone puts a website out there and markets themselves as training and selling puppies for a price 4-5 times what the average breeder in the area charges, then it will probably be addressed on here if someone asks about them. And most people I know would say $8,000 is WAY too much to pay for a dog that isn't titled (i.e. finished CH, MH, etc.) I don't think UplandHtr was alone in that. Those 5 months of raising training the puppy (in excess of the 8-9 weeks of most breeders) are costing the puppy buyer $6,000-$7,000. That is a lot of money and people are legitimately questioning the value of that versus buying a puppy from a reputable breeder and training them yourself or with a trainer.

I said twice that I don't have an opinion one way or another on whether it was worth it. I would NEVER pay that for a non-titled dog and, honestly, question how well a pup is going to be trained at 7 months old, but I'm not going to poo-poo this breeder when I don't have all the information. And I'm not going to defend them either. They are on the forum and can defend themselves if necessary.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Hell, I have been slandered on this forum that I could have filed a law suit, and I don't even breed. People are jealous of thin, attractive, happy people with nice dogs and lots of friends... what can I say. Do your homework and make a choice... why slander this breeder with no knowledge of her or his skills and ideals? The ******** here are so quick to judge, and they'll outright lie (as they did in my slander post). Why am I a threat? Other than not being obese and not breeding and not abusing dogs, and being willing to rescue shelter dogs which my slanderer won't do... I fail to see my threat. So keep on, do what you want, and good luck!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Hell, I have been slandered on this forum that I could have filed a law suit, and I don't even breed. People are jealous of thin, attractive, happy people with nice dogs and lots of friends... what can I say. Do your homework and make a choice... why slander this breeder with no knowledge of her or his skills and ideals? *The ******** here* are so quick to judge, and they'll outright lie (as they did in my slander post). Why am I a threat? Other than not being obese and not breeding and not abusing dogs, and being willing to rescue shelter dogs which my slanderer won't do... I fail to see my threat. So keep on, do what you want, and good luck!


I'm sorry, but what? Did you seriously just call me an ******* on this forum? Real nice.

And fyi, it's not slander when it's written. It's libel. And no one is doing that in this thread either. Tone it down.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I didn't call you an *******, my friend! Show me where I did... ???? You are not a slanderer.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

It was written after I posted, so.....


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Nah, not you, you question and want to learn. That's not ******* behavior


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

A trained, X rayed dog is very valuable. Imagine the cost of paying a trainer to train your dog, paying for clearances... plus the price of a nice puppy... this isn't a bad deal. And even if YOU (whomever) thinks it is, if the breeder can charge it and get it, well isn't that a free market society? Who cares?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I agree, but you can't get clearances at 7 months old. And prelim xrays cost about $300 bucks at the radiologist in Newport Beach that most golden breeders/exhibitors in California take their dogs to for xrays. Not that I think people should or shouldn't pay the $8k.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I would value X rays at a young age as at least some reassurance.... not trying to be a butthead!!!  You have valid questions, my friend! Just saying... I don't think a price to high if people will pay it. That's America at work.


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

Please choose your wording carefully!! This is a open board to members of all ages and profanity is not welcomed here. I hate censoring words but I see we needed to add another one to our list. If you are going to disagree with someone do so in a manner that does not require profanity.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

No prob, Rob!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I don't really see a problem in selling a dog for what somebody will pay for it. $8000 is a ton of money, but I doubt ABC is going to get rich, given the financial outlay on a cleared dog of that age and time investment (assuming all clearances are in order).

Personally, I'd never pay it, and I like to raise pups by hand, myself, so it wouldn't be for me at all. But I don't see anything unethical here. Nobody's raised any issue at all about the actual breeding or training practices that raises a red flag for me, except for the story of the flinching dog, which on its own doesn't constitute, for me, proof of a problem.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Tippy, your siggie is stunning!


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## embreeo (Aug 19, 2006)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> People routinely come on here and ask for opinions about breeders. If all anyone ever did was say shiny happy things then this area of the site would lose a lot of it's value to people that are new to goldens.
> 
> *No one that I saw was badmouthing anyone.* They questioned the price, which I imagine even ABC Goldens would agree is significantly more than most breeders in southern california charge (not that it's worth it or not, but it IS more), and commented on a puppy in video looking like he flinched when the trainer was putting the leash on him. None of that is bad mouthing. If someone puts a website out there and markets themselves as training and selling puppies for a price 4-5 times what the average breeder in the area charges, then it will probably be addressed on here if someone asks about them. And most people I know would say $8,000 is WAY too much to pay for a dog that isn't titled (i.e. finished CH, MH, etc.) I don't think UplandHtr was alone in that. Those 5 months of raising training the puppy (in excess of the 8-9 weeks of most breeders) are costing the puppy buyer $6,000-$7,000. That is a lot of money and people are legitimately questioning the value of that versus buying a puppy from a reputable breeder and training them yourself or with a trainer.
> 
> I said twice that I don't have an opinion one way or another on whether it was worth it. I would NEVER pay that for a non-titled dog and, honestly, question how well a pup is going to be trained at 7 months old, but I'm not going to poo-poo this breeder when I don't have all the information. And I'm not going to defend them either. They are on the forum and can defend themselves if necessary.


I beg to differ with you. UplandHtr said "RUN AWAY!" and IMO, that is badmouthing. If not, what do you call it?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Well, when taken in context of the entire post...



> You asked so...... RUN AWAY !
> There are so many other options...and youll save $7k +/-


...it means the poster thinks it's a waste of $7,000 +/-. UplandHtr may be right, may be wrong, but in that posters opinion it's a waste of $7,000 because there are other options. Badmouthing would be saying "_____ are crooks and stealing your $7,000 for that price." But clearly that wasn't what was said. Even taken in the worst possible way, saying to run away because it's a waste of $7,000 is just UplandHtr's opinion. Not badmouthing. Peruse some of the other breeder threads on here.... there are definitely some that I think contain badmouthing. Just not this one.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

embreeo said:


> I beg to differ with you. UplandHtr said "RUN AWAY!" and IMO, that is badmouthing. If not, what do you call it?


Strong wording maybe, but bad mouthing, no. I think most of us who don't have a 5 figure monthly income probably felt the same sense of shock at seeing the $8k price tag. 

In my life, I come to people with more experience than me on any given issue sometimes just to say "What do you think, what would you do, Am I crazy?" I assume that's what many who seek out this forum are after. You're going to get honest answers. And when people are shocked they may say "HOLY COW! NOT IN A MILLION YEARS WOULD I DO THAT" It doesn't mean it's bad mouthing, it's just an honest reaction.


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## embreeo (Aug 19, 2006)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Well, when taken in context of the entire post...
> 
> 
> 
> ...it means the poster thinks it's a waste of $7,000 +/-. UplandHtr may be right, may be wrong, but in that posters opinion it's a waste of $7,000 because there are other options. Badmouthing would be saying "_____ are crooks and stealing your $7,000 for that price." But clearly that wasn't what was said. Even taken in the worst possible way, saying to run away because it's a waste of $7,000 is just UplandHtr's opinion. Not badmouthing. Peruse some of the other breeder threads on here.... there are definitely some that I think contain badmouthing. Just not this one.


I think it's a matter of interpretation. I read the "RUN AWAY!" as a separate paragraph.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

embreeo said:


> I think it's a matter of interpretation. I read the "RUN AWAY!" as a separate paragraph.


I agree! However this thread isn't as bad as alot of other ones which was true to your first post which I have noticed also.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Mack the Collie is stunning!


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## ABC Golden Retrievers (Nov 30, 2011)

I find it interesting how this thread has unfolded. The OP started this thread to ask if anyone had purchased a dog from us or had any personal experience with our business. As far as I know, no one on this thread has met me, seen me work any of my dogs in person or spoken to me about our training program. I am a pretty open person, so I would much rather have someone call and speak to me about our Goldens than speculate on a message board. I had a thread started about us on an email list that I am on about ten years ago and I invited anyone on that list to call me if they had any questions. I actually made some good friends that way. That invitation stands on this forum as well. My cell number is on my website. 

I will add though that I find it a little bit odd that the OP posted here when I made it clear that I would be happy to provide references from current owners of our Goldens once she filled our questionnaire or called to speak with me in person.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

ABC Golden Retrievers said:


> I will add though that I find it a little bit odd that the OP posted here when I made it clear that I would be happy to provide references from current owners of our Goldens once she filled our questionnaire or called to speak with me in person.



ODD? No not odd at all. No one in any kind of business is going to provide contact information with anyone that may have been less than satisfied with them. And no one can please every single customer, I do not care how good the product. So I believe the OP was/is trying to find a way to get in touch with someone NOT supplied by you that's all. And as we all know getting a puppy is a HUGE commitment of time and resources. In my opinion just doing a little leg work is all.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> No one in any kind of business is going to provide contact information with anyone that may have been less than satisfied with them. And no one can please every single customer, I do not care how good the product.


I agree. If someone is going to spend that much money and put enough trust in someone to provide to them a trained puppy for their family, one including children, I would expect that person to do research on their own. It's what I would expect if that same person was purchasing from a breeder. I would think you would want that. Shows they're serious and care enough about their decision to cover all their bases.

After all, you research your buyers, don't you?


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

The op was asking if anyone had a puppy from you and was asking opinions, unfortunately it seems no one has, having been on this forum for a while some people can be a little judgmental and I think that people should perhaps reign their opinions in a bit and think before they post, being in the UK I have absolutely no experience of breeders in the USA but feel if all your clearances are done and up to date and people are willing to pay $8000 (think that is about £5500.00 UK) with training heath guarantee etc I think you pay your money and make your choice.
I do commend you for coming on here to defend (perhaps wrong choice of words) yourself as it takes courage to defend yourself from what can seem a pack mentality.
Thankfully here in the UK we take it a little easier on breeders I dont mean clearances we expect that but we don't expect them to have showing conformation or be field trial champion dogs before they are deemed worthy breeders, as most people in the UK just want a family member that is a healthy and happy pup and no amount of certificates and championship titles can guarantee that.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Mack the Collie is stunning!


 
Thank you, and best of all he is an absolute sweetheart with everyone. We just finished pre-agility and had a blast - the instructor said he's a natural, so I'm excited about our future.


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## ABC Golden Retrievers (Nov 30, 2011)

AmbikaGR said:


> ODD? No not odd at all. No one in any kind of business is going to provide contact information with anyone that may have been less than satisfied with them. And no one can please every single customer, I do not care how good the product. So I believe the OP was/is trying to find a way to get in touch with someone NOT supplied by you that's all. And as we all know getting a puppy is a HUGE commitment of time and resources. In my opinion just doing a little leg work is all.


Sorry, I should clarify. I meant that I thought that it was odd that she would post here but would not call me on the phone or send back the questionnaire since we wouldn't even consider placing a dog with someone who had not done both. I do understand her using this forum to get info from previous clients not on the reference list. I just didn't understand why she wouldn't want to also want to speak with me and check references in addition to that.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

In the UK titles are much harder to obtain than in the US even at AKC shows. Our dogs have to compete against established champions to win CC's and those dogs can be shown at every show. The same with the field trial dogs but even harder there when they have to win an AV open stake against labradors. By no stretch of the imagination do all breeders in the UK show or work their dogs but we do now have an assured breeder scheme(not perfect) but it does acknowledge breeders who have bred dogs that have a stud book number. Annef


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## sameli102 (Aug 23, 2009)

Whether the price is valid or not can be argued, what is worth it to one is not to another. If it's worth it to OP and they can afford it no problem. But I certainly cannot blame them for investigating before buying. I would never depend solely on a businesses references, I would be researching them in any way I could.

My concern would be that if I were buying my first family dog and did not know anything about dogs I would be assuming for $8k I would be bringing a fully mature, fully trained dog into my home with little kids and the work would be done. I would expect that if my toddler left toys on the floor my fully trained dog could be trusted to not chew them, not knock my kids over or get too excited around them or company. I would not expect my dog to run into the street, and not come right back when called. No counter surfing, anxiety issues, etc. and that is a lot to ask of a 7 month old.

Sadly, that is what happens with so many families (*not all*) that get a dog when they are just starting a family and that is why the rescues avoid them. The dog is getting big, doesn't realize his size and gets too rough and knocks the little ones over, for some reason they think the kids toys are their toys too and they are so much fun to rip up so the dog gets separated from the kids and their toys making for twice as much enthusiasm when they get together again. Now they grab a cookie from childs hand or they grab the toys and run, kids chase dog, get knocked over harder, dog gets confined to the yard, etc etc.
Ok, this may not happen in all cases but I can say my dogs are wonderful left loose in the house all day while we are gone. When the grand kids come over they get very wound up with excitement for awhile but settle down. They do love to get their toys though and it drives me crazy throwing away chewed up stuffed animals and plastic toys. It is a constant battle getting the kids to keep their toys picked up and out of the dogs reach. Even my most docile senior turns into a little pup over toys.

Not to say kids and dogs don't work, just that it takes much more commitment on the adults part. Work with them all and have patience, don't do like many and dump the dog because he wants to be a kid too.

Good luck in your search and know that no matter where you get the dog you will have to keep up with the training. At least an older dog will have you past the land shark stage, a horror for little kids, and by 7-8 months you will know what their temperament will be.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

The most important theme I'm hearing in this thread has little to do with ABC in particular, but is important enough that I'm happy to see it in _any_ thread: when people get a dog without being fully prepared for all the likely issues, it's _always_ the dog that loses. Nobody puts their kids in the yard when they leave their toys around and the dog ruins them. Nobody runs out of time to bring their kids to a violin lesson and leaves them at home in a crate while they take the dog to a training class instead. And nobody takes their kids back to the hospital when it turns out that they've overestimated how hard it would be to raise a dog and a puppy at the same time.

If ABC can provide a service—albeit an expensive one—that allows people to get a dog from an ethical breeding (titled, cleared, etc.), more power to 'em. I've always felt that if I wanted to maximize the chances of a healthy, stable dog, I need to get a carefully bred one and hand raise it myself. But I absolutely see the merits in getting a dog who's been carefully raised by someone with experience and then taking over around the 8 month mark. That's as long as the breeder/trainer is incredibly clear with inexperienced buyers that "8 months and trained" does not equal "mellow adult." As long as the breeder/trainer is perfectly honest (and we have no indication that ABC is anything but open and honest, right?), I see that they're offering a service that some people might value at even more than $8000.

I've certainly had people ask me semi-seriously if I would pick out a Golden for them, raise it myself to a year, and then give it to them, and they've half-joked that they'd pay thousands of dollars. Lots of folks want a young, trained dog but aren't ready right now, for one reason or another, to devote the intense level of attention during that crucial 3-4 months you first have a pup.


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## chris k (Mar 6, 2012)

First, I wanted to say that I originally asked if anyone purchsed a dog from ABC golden retrievers because I wanted to make sure the dog was actually trained. I did not have an issue paying the $8000 for a trained dog, but that is a lot of money for me (as a teacher). I wanted to make sure I was geting what I paid for. I asked ABC golden retrievers to add specifications to the contract because even though she could tell me in an email that the dog would be trained to do certain things, it was not detailed in the contract, which stated that 'this contract supercedes any other verbal or written agreement" so I wanted to make sure that the contract would outline exactly what the dog would be trained to do. I actually cut and pasted directly from their website. And, I asked for videos to show us training with the dog. She told me she would not alter the contract further and to call her. Well, I didn't call her because that seemed very shady to me. Also, the website only shows dogs from 2010 as 'trained dogs available' such as "Iris", yet she is supposedly currently training puppies to purchase. After she indicated she would not add specifications to the contract (which were directly taken from what she 'offers' on her website), it just seemed very suspicious to me so I decided not to purchase from ABC golden retrievers. For $8000 I do not think I was asking too much by requesting it be outlined in the contract what the dog would specifically be trained to do. For that much money, they should have no problem backing up their training in a contract!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I think 8,000 is really gross for an ABC bred and trained puppy. However, buyer has plenty of bewares, so . . .


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## ABC Golden Retrievers (Nov 30, 2011)

Seriously Goldensunny? I asked you to call me because I sent you the contract and questionnaire at the same time and four days later you were requesting that I modify the contract for the third time but you hadn't sent me the questionnaire or called to speak with me. At that point since I didn't know what your home would be like for the dog, (if you had a fenced yard, how long the dog would be alone per day, or any of the other basic questions that we use to screen people), I decided not to keep working with you on the contract until I actually talked to you. It's not "shady" for someone to care where their dogs are going. I also thought that we apparently had communication issues because my contract stated that the dog would heel on and off leash, and you kept asking me to add that the dog would "walk on a leash". Also, I did tell you that I would send videos both during the training process and once the training was completed, (as I always do for every dog I place if someone isn't close enough to come for lessons). I would have added that to the contract as well . . . . if you would have filled out the questionnaire and called me like I asked you to. I have an obligation to make sure that my dogs are going into good homes and will have great lives so I wouldn't place a dog with anyone that can't be bothered to give me the basic information that I need to figure out if they would be a good home.


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## chris k (Mar 6, 2012)

I find it interesting that you are now using the questionnaire as your excuse. When I asked for more details to be added to the contract, your response was not to first send back the questionnaire and 
then we could discuss adding more to the contract. n fact, the only time you even mentioned the questionnaire was when you said to mail it back to you, along with the contract and a check. Your exact response to me was "I AM NOT WILLING TO FURTHER ALTER THE CONTRACT. Most of what you are asking me to change is already in the contract, including being able to choose a replacement dog if Zipper fails a health check, the training commands, that we will provide health records, exam results and digital x-rays. You are welcome to proceed with the contract as is if you would still like to reserve Zipper. You are also welcome to call anytime if you have any questions." I just feel that if you expect someone to pay $8000 for your services, you shouldn't have a problem putting details in the contract (most of which were listed on your website anyway). This would have clarified for both parties what the expectations were and what would be provided. You have no problem putting in your contract things that benefit you (forfeiting a deposit, replacing a dog instead of refunding money, or that the contract supercedes any other oral or witten agreement). I have every right to protect myself when making this much of a purchase. If you were confident in your product and services, it shouldn't have been a problem. The fact that you were not willing to add any additional specifications to make it a fair negotiation was enough to make me doubt you and look elsewhere.


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## chris k (Mar 6, 2012)

Your contract stated this... "The seller agrees to raise the above dog in their home during the training process and provide housebreaking and house manners training. The seller will also socialize the above dog in public with groups of people, children and other dogs. Additionally, the seller will obedience train the dog to heel, sit, down, sit-stay, downstay and COME when called on and off leash". It says COME when called on and off leash, it didn't say WALK. I asked you to add the obedience commands from your site (which I just cut and pasted), which were *Sit, Down, Stay, Heel, Come, Free, Free/walk on free, Out, No, Go. Go to bed, Fetch, and I wanted to add Walk on and off leash. *I also wanted clarification as to what "house manners" and "house breaking" meant, which I also just cut and pasted from your site. Why do you feel it was unreasonable to want this to be specified in the contract? Especially when the contract makes it clear that any other agreement (via email or phone conversation) would not be binding once the contract is signed. I wanted to have some form of recourse if you didn't live up to your end of the agreement, which I would not have been able to do if it was not in the contract. Many people have gotten burned by trusting the wrong breeder, and I just wanted to protect myself when shelling out $8K. I think I was being smart!


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## ABC Golden Retrievers (Nov 30, 2011)

I would have been willing to make the alterations to the contract had you called me or filled out the questionnaire. I didn't want to proceed with altering the contract without having actually talked to you about your home and what the situation would be for the dog. I asked you to call me twice, once before I sent the email that I would not further alter the contract and once after. I also asked you to send me back the questionnaire when I emailed it. My problem with you was not that you wanted to change the contract, it was that you didn't want to give me any information about yourself or actually speak to me in person. It was all about what you wanted from us and not about whether you were a good match for the dog. If you would have mailed me the contract and the questionnaire didn't look great we would have mailed back the contract and declined to sell to you.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Sylvia publishes the golden retriever news, and has a wealth of info. Network with her and get some solid advice. Here are some other good breeders.

Birnam Wood
Sylvia Donahey
Cotati, CA USA 
[email protected]
www.birnamwood.com 




Aubridge Goldens
Robin E. Baker
Sacramento, CA USA 
[email protected]
home.earthlink.net/~aubridge/ 

Star Crowned Goldens
Karen W. Webb
Ridgecrest, CA USA 
[email protected]
Star Crowned Golden Retrievers - "Versatile Goldens with English Good Looks", English Golden Retrievers, British Golden Retrievers, Cream Golden Retrievers, White Golden Retrievers, Cream Golden Puppies, California Cream Goldens, English Goldens in C 
760-384-2347
Emberain Golden Retrievers

Ed & Edwina Ryska
Petaluma, CA USA 
[email protected]
Emberain Golden Retrievers 
707-664-1344
Fanfare Goldens

Shirley McKenna
Hesperia, CA USA 92345 
[email protected]
760-244-0045 Cell Phone 760-900-1626
Forum

Michael & Michele Leon Michael H. Faulkner
Riverside, CA USA 92504 
[email protected]
www.simplesite.com/ForumGoldenRetrievers 
951/780-0849
Premiere Golden Retrievers

Christine Texter
Redlands, CA USA 
[email protected]
premieregoldenretrievers.com


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Goldensunny said:


> First, I wanted to say that I originally asked if anyone purchsed a dog from ABC golden retrievers because I wanted to make sure the dog was actually trained. I did not have an issue paying the $8000 for a trained dog, but that is a lot of money for me (as a teacher). I wanted to make sure I was geting what I paid for. I asked ABC golden retrievers to add specifications to the contract because even though she could tell me in an email that the dog would be trained to do certain things, it was not detailed in the contract, which stated that 'this contract supercedes any other verbal or written agreement" so I wanted to make sure that the contract would outline exactly what the dog would be trained to do. I actually cut and pasted directly from their website. And, I asked for videos to show us training with the dog. She told me she would not alter the contract further and to call her. Well, I didn't call her because that seemed very shady to me. Also, the website only shows dogs from 2010 as 'trained dogs available' such as "Iris", yet she is supposedly currently training puppies to purchase. After she indicated she would not add specifications to the contract (which were directly taken from what she 'offers' on her website), it just seemed very suspicious to me so I decided not to purchase from ABC golden retrievers. For $8000 I do not think I was asking too much by requesting it be outlined in the contract what the dog would specifically be trained to do. For that much money, they should have no problem backing up their training in a contract!


I think that was reasonable expectations, and you were right to walk away if you were not comfortable with the contract. However, since you were asking her to make changes to her contract, it would have been to both your benefits to have a conversatioin about what you wanted changed and why. Direct communication could easily have resolved your questions and resulted in you getting a very nice dog fully trained. That would have been worth calling and speaking to the breeder.


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## chris k (Mar 6, 2012)

My concern was that I wanted it in writing first before following up with a phone call. People can promise anything verbally in a phone conversation, but it's much easier to recall what you agreed upon when reflecting back in an email conversaion. I had no problem sending back the questionnaire, but in her email she said to mail back the contract with the questionnaire and the check for the deposit. I could not do that until the contract was further negotiated. I have a house with a yard, previously owned a golden retriever until he recently passed away at the age of 14, and my husband works from home so our puppy will have plenty of love and attention. That was not the issue. When ABC golden retrievers was reluctant to add information in the contract, I found that to be suspicious, therefore, did not follow through on a phone call or sending back the questionnaire. She did not say she wanted to talk first and see the questionnaire before making any additional changes. She said she would not further alter the contract, period. And, basically that I could take it or leave it. And to call if I had any further questions. So, I decided to end all communication until she tried to justify herself on here (I never even followed up with any of this. My original post just asked if anyone purchased from them and what their experience was). But, when she tried to incinuate that I did something wrong by not calling her, I decided to defend myself here and explain what really happened. Again, I find the whole thing pretty shady, but that is my opinion.


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## chris k (Mar 6, 2012)

Again, it was made very clear that ABC golden retrievers would not further alter the contract and if I was willing to sign it as is then we could proceed. The fact that she wanted me to call her to discuss means nothing. She could have verbally told me anything she wanted and not be held to it. If it wasn't in the contract, it was not a binding agreement (as it is indicated in her contract that by signing, it supercedes any other verbal or written agreement). So, what was she going to tell me, that it didn't need to be in the contract but I could trust her at her word? I think not. Now that I see how she backtracks, inflates the truth and makes excuses, I am confident that I made the right decision in not giving her $8000 of my hard-earned money!!!! And, we will find our new addition to our family elsewhere. Hopefully the next person who thinks about purchasing from them can use my experience as a precaution to get it in writing first!


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## ABC Golden Retrievers (Nov 30, 2011)

Goldensunny - My last email to you was "Please call me so that we can discuss". This was in direct response to your request to alter the contract. I wanted to talk to you about the dog's living situation and what changes you wanted any why. A lot of the things you requested were already specified in the contract, so I wanted to 1) Make sure that we were not both wasting our time by discussing the contract if the dog would not be a good fit for your living situation, and 2) Discuss the changes to the contract and go over what I was willing to change and what I needed to keep intact. I have normally have contract discussions over the phone, take notes, and then modify the contract and email the new contract to the client. I did send the questionnaire in a form in which you could have filled it out and sent it as an attachment, but if you would have called me like I asked, I would have asked you most of the questions on the questionnaire anyway and then I would have had the info I needed. I don't appreciate you calling me "shady". Anyone that you are going to consider getting a dog from is going to want to talk to you in person before they go changing their contract and proceeding with the sale. I really don't think I did anything wrong by asking you to call me to discuss things.


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## chris k (Mar 6, 2012)

Most of it was not in the contract. Many parts were vague and unspecific. As I stated, I only wanted to put detailed information that you offer on your website put into the contract. My email was very specific and your exact response was you were not willing to further alter the contract but I could sign it as is if I wanted to reserve the dog. When I explained my reasons for wanting those things added, you asked me to call you. Why did I want to call you or send back the questionnaire when you made it perfectly clear you were not willing to change anything else? You are now deflecting from the facts and trying to make it sound like I wasnt willing to send you the questionnaire. It was pointless to fill that out if we couldn't agree on the contract. I also found it suspicious that you only have one dog on your website from 2010 but are training puppies to sell now? Or haven't sold any since then? And you have two business locations? And a complaint filed with bbb.org. So, yes, I wanted to protect myself and make sure we had everything in the contract, not just vague interpretations. If it's not in the contract then legally, it doesn't exist. And, it appears you would have no problem saying you didnt guarantee it in the contract so you didn't agree to it. Just like you are trying to make this all about not sending you a questionnaire or making sure we were a good fit, when in reality you weren't wanting to negotiate a fair deal. I wanted it in writing first. Then I would have had no problem speaking with you on the phone. So yes, shady is an understatement for how I feel about this experience!


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## chris k (Mar 6, 2012)

And, for the record, I had no intention of coming on here and badmouthing you. My original post was at the beginning of our negotiations just asking about ABC goldens. I didn't even respond that I had decided not to purchase from you until you got defensive about what other people were posting and tried to insinuate I did something wrong. Then I really felt suspicious and felt the need to explain myself. Of course I didn't call you or send back your questionnaire when I felt uncomfortable moving forward with the sale and wasn't going to do business with you. Why would you expect someone to contact you after that? I took the advice from one post on here and RAN!


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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

80% of this thread could have been done in pm's, just saying....


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## chris k (Mar 6, 2012)

jagmanbrg said:


> 80% of this thread could have been done in pm's, just saying....


 
Yes, I'm a new member and this was my first posting, sorry. Didn't know to PM, and just learned how to attach the quote from a previous post. Learning...


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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

No biggie, it just seemed odd, cause you two were just going back and forth...lol.

Btw, I recommend buying from a reputable breeder and training the dog yourself, or hiring a trainer, imo you'll save money in the long run and you can't put a price on the bond you'll have with your dog.

just my .02 cents.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

I just wanted to chime in, not to give my opinion about the topic at hand per say, but to say that my rescue is a golden mix who is absolutely wonderful with children although he was previously abandoned and we are pretty sure was abused. Rescues are a great great great way to go and if they think that your child is too young, I hate to say it, but your child might actually be too young for a new dog to be the right choice right now. Any how, I just wanted to advocate for rescuing because I think its a really great thing! Good luck!


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## Golden&Shihtzulover (Feb 2, 2012)

I really don't blame you for wanting to protect yourself. According to the complaints against the business...the owners sounds real shady. And you are right..that is an understatement. I agree that rescues make PERFECT pets. I rescued my six month old golden a month ago, and I have three kids. She has been PERFECT! And there is no other joy than training your golden and being proud of the results. She has learned SO much this past month. Good luck! I hope you find your perfect golden!

Here is the link of the complaint..terrible!
ABC Puppy Training & Golden Retrievers Business Review in Riverside, CA


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## My Big Kahuna (Dec 14, 2011)

I find this thread to be very interesting....


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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

Golden&Shihtzulover said:


> I really don't blame you for wanting to protect yourself. According to the *complaints *against the business...the owners sounds real shady. And you are right..that is an understatement. I agree that rescues make PERFECT pets. I rescued my six month old golden a month ago, and I have three kids. She has been PERFECT! And there is no other joy than training your golden and being proud of the results. She has learned SO much this past month. Good luck! I hope you find your perfect golden!
> 
> Here is the link of the complaint..terrible!
> ABC Puppy Training & Golden Retrievers Business Review in Riverside, CA


I skimmed through most of that, and only saw one *complaint*. As some have stated, not sure what the deal in this thread is. On paper this seems to be a reputable breeder/trainer. If she is doing clearances on the dogs I don't understand the issue. I agree that the 8k is a lot, and that its fair to talk about that, its a forum, but there's more then talk about the price in this thread.

In regards to the *complaint* on the BBB website (BBB is a joke btw...)
It seems like you had a customer/buyer that gave you a deposit on a trained dog and backed out twice. I would imagine when your in the business of taking a puppy and assigning the dog to a future owner and then taking a deposit to secure and start the training that owner is kinda locked in...uh....duh! This breeder/trainer gave him two chances? And hes mad cause she kept his deposit? Lol, I would of kept it on principle....


I don't know this person from adam, not even sure why I've typed as much as I have, cause honestly, since this breeder seems to be doing it right, clearances wise, I could care less, but when people come in a thread thats 9 pages long with "TWO" post and say

* "According to the complaints against the business...the owners sounds real shady. And you are right..that is an understatement.*"


Don't know about the rest of ya, but imo that's whats shady.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I just read the whole BBB back-and-forth, and, honestly, ABC comes out looking pretty good. There's no disagreement that they tried to provide the guy a dog two times on the initial deposit and that he backed out both times.

I'm always willing to call a spade a spade when I see a bad breeder, but when people do all their clearances and follow their contracts, I really don't see anything "shady," and certainly not in the BBB complaint cited by our new friend Golden&Shihtzulover.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

jagmanbrg said:


> 80% of this thread could have been done in pm's, just saying....



Actually no it could not as Goldensunny is a member with only 14 posts at the time I am posting this. And you need 15 posts before you can send a PM on here.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> Actually no it could not as Goldensunny is a member with only 14 posts at the time I am posting this. And you need 15 posts before you can send a PM on here.


That's true. Actually all of this should have been discussed between them privately and then neither of them would even be here.


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## embreeo (Aug 19, 2006)

mylissyk said:


> That's true. Actually all of this should have been discussed between them privately and then neither of them would even be here.


It appears ABC did attempt to discuss this privately by email to the OP and asking the OP to call them - see ABC's prior posts in this thread. However, it also appears the OP refused to do either, but instead chose to bring it to a public forum.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

mylissyk said:


> That's true. Actually all of this should have been discussed between them privately and then neither of them would even be here.


I've been thinking this for quite some days now, following the discussion...


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## Golden&Shihtzulover (Feb 2, 2012)

Well thankfully this is free country and everyone has the right to express their feelings, even here  I usually don't post on these types of boards. But, from my point of view I agree with the Goldensunny. However, good luck with your choice!


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## gdmeadows (Feb 8, 2012)

Hi! I have the least amount of experience here. We just adoped our Golden mix from the pound a little over a month ago. He is estimated to be around 18 mos old. He is a WONDERFUL dog. He is probably 3/4 golden and 1/4 something else. He looks and acts like the golden breed. I would suggest going w/ an older dog (1 1/2 - 2). He is so calm and enjoyable yet loves to play w/ my kids. I think age will help more than anything especially if you have a baby at home to handle. You can pay a professional handler to come to your home and train your dog for a lot less. Good Luck!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

embreeo said:


> It appears ABC did attempt to discuss this privately by email to the OP and asking the OP to call them - see ABC's prior posts in this thread. However, it also appears the OP refused to do either, but instead chose to bring it to a public forum.


I find these threads one of the most useful parts of the forum as long as they stick to the truth. I think the info about this breeder has been worthy of consideration. A forum is a place to hold an open discussion.


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## chris k (Mar 6, 2012)

embreeo said:


> It appears ABC did attempt to discuss this privately by email to the OP and asking the OP to call them - see ABC's prior posts in this thread. However, it also appears the OP refused to do either, but instead chose to bring it to a public forum.


 Actually that's not true. I wanted certain things specified in the contract, which she refused and said she's not willing to further alter the contract, but I could contact her if I had any questions. I decided to take my business elsewhere if she was not willing to add to the contract so the expectations were clear for both parties. I had no intention of posting anything further on here about it (my original post simply asked if anyone knew anything about them) until she came on and incinuated I did something wrong because I didn't call her, when in reality, I didn't contact her because I'm not doing business with someone who was unwilling to add specifications from their website into the contract. When she posted that I felt the need to elaborate some. If someone else wants to spend $8K and is okay with a vague contract at best, so be it. I wasn't accusing them of being bad breeders, but it was enough to make me feel uncomfortable going further.


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## embreeo (Aug 19, 2006)

Goldensunny said:


> Actually that's not true. I wanted certain things specified in the contract, which she refused and said she's not willing to further alter the contract, but I could contact her if I had any questions. I decided to take my business elsewhere if she was not willing to add to the contract so the expectations were clear for both parties. I had no intention of posting anything further on here about it (my original post simply asked if anyone knew anything about them) until she came on and incinuated I did something wrong because I didn't call her, when in reality, I didn't contact her because I'm not doing business with someone who was unwilling to add specifications from their website into the contract. When she posted that I felt the need to elaborate some. If someone else wants to spend $8K and is okay with a vague contract at best, so be it. I wasn't accusing them of being bad breeders, but it was enough to make me feel uncomfortable going further.


Actually, it looks like ABC did try to communicate with you privately. See quote below.



ABC Golden Retrievers said:


> Seriously Goldensunny? I asked you to call me because I sent you the contract and questionnaire at the same time and four days later you were requesting that I modify the contract for the third time but you hadn't sent me the questionnaire or called to speak with me. At that point since I didn't know what your home would be like for the dog, (if you had a fenced yard, how long the dog would be alone per day, or any of the other basic questions that we use to screen people), I decided not to keep working with you on the contract until I actually talked to you. It's not "shady" for someone to care where their dogs are going. I also thought that we apparently had communication issues because my contract stated that the dog would heel on and off leash, and you kept asking me to add that the dog would "walk on a leash". Also, I did tell you that I would send videos both during the training process and once the training was completed, (as I always do for every dog I place if someone isn't close enough to come for lessons). I would have added that to the contract as well . . . . if you would have filled out the questionnaire and called me like I asked you to. I have an obligation to make sure that my dogs are going into good homes and will have great lives so I wouldn't place a dog with anyone that can't be bothered to give me the basic information that I need to figure out if they would be a good home.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

For $8000 I could have 6 to 8 well-bred Goldens and have the fun of training them myself haha. 

Who would want to miss out on puppy breath!?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Thought better


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I really don't see the benefit of publicly debating what happened in a private conversation, particularly when the people debating weren't part of the original conversation. She's finding another breeder, so everything worked out for the best. How about we just let this one go....


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## cody9411 (Feb 9, 2015)

*Review From An Actual Customer*



chris k said:


> We are considering purchasing a trained golden from ABC golden retrievers. It is a lot of money ($8000), but they raise the dog in their house while they train it for 7 months and give a 7 year health warranty. I just wanted to see if anyone has experience with them or purchased a golden from them, and if so, was it worth the money? Thanks.


I am an actual customer of Don and Susan and wanted to give my thoughts on their process. My review in a nutshell is that they are great and it was worth every penny if you have the disposable income.

I contacted them about two months ago and finally went to see them at the mall about a month ago. Don brought two excellently trained dogs, we preferred the female, signed a contract and gave a deposit. We had a couple more training sessions over the next month and were sent emails and video updates along the way. 

Any time I had a question, I was given a prompt response, and delivery was made with a crate, toys for dogs, health records and clearances, a cd with x-rays, and AKC registration paperwork if that sort of thing is important to you.

We looked at a lot of dogs, puppies, rescues, etc, and there is simply nothing in Southern California that was as good a fit for us as Don's program.

I saw this thread and the other like it when I was researching and promised myself I would add some firsthand knowledge after our adoption was complete. I hope this is useful to someone out there.

Cody
Rancho Cucamonga, CA


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## SunnynSey (Jan 17, 2015)

Im sorry but $8000 is a ridiculous amount to pay for a "trained" puppy, for 1/4 the price you can get a well bred puppy from AKC Champion parents, Clearances on parents and depth of clearance in the pedigree from a reputable, ethical breeder. There is absolutely no info on the parents or pedigree. It just looks like they do basic puppy training (which a $100 petsmart training class could do for you) and hold on to the puppies for a few extra months, and they don't specify if their health checks/xrays are done through the OFA or regular practioner (?). Sounds like they care more about filling a particular market for "trained" puppies versus actually trying to what's best for the breed.


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## cody9411 (Feb 9, 2015)

SunnynSey said:


> Im sorry but $8000 is a ridiculous amount to pay for a "trained" puppy, for 1/4 the price you can get a well bred puppy from AKC Champion parents, Clearances on parents and depth of clearance in the pedigree from a reputable, ethical breeder. There is absolutely no info on the parents or pedigree. It just looks like they do basic puppy training (which a $100 petsmart training class could do for you) and hold on to the puppies for a few extra months, and they don't specify if their health checks/xrays are done through the OFA or regular practioner (?). Sounds like they care more about filling a particular market for "trained" puppies versus actually trying to what's best for the breed.


Sunny,

Apologies as I'm not up on the terminology, I'm not quite sure what OFA is. I agree with you that a puppy is much cheaper, but that wasn't what I was looking for. I run a business and spend a substantial amount of time home each day as does my wife, but we didn't want to spend it training a puppy. Having a puppy is like having another child, and we would rather spend our time reinforcing existing training than start from scratch.

I realize this isn't for everyone, but I suppose that's why they only raise a couple dogs at a time.

Thank You!


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

cody9411 said:


> Sunny,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't understand. In one post you say they provided you with "health clearances" and in the next you say you do not know what OFA is. What "health clearances" did they give you?

Julie and the boys


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## ABC Golden Retrievers (Nov 30, 2011)

I just wanted to chime in on the clearances. The parents of Cody's dog had all of the GRCA COE clearances done prior to breeding, (so for the record, OFA hip & Elbow clearances, OFA Cardiac with a Cardiologist and current CERFs), Sire is also clear, (non-carrier), for Ichthyosis.
In addition we also did eye and heart checks on his dog and hip and elbow prelims, (at 15 months old). The prelims were digital and we gave him a copy for his records. She was also spayed a few weeks before she went home.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

So to clarify: you don't breed dogs, but you obtain them from other breeders and train them for ___ months and then sell them as a trained puppy for $8000? I see a reference to "parents" on your webpage but no specific information about them.


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## ABC Golden Retrievers (Nov 30, 2011)

Yes, I primarily work with other reputable breeders by taking a puppy or two from a nice litter, raising it in my home for close to a year, (sometimes longer), and placing it as a off leash trained young adult dog once it is finished. Many of my dogs go directly into therapy work with their new owners. I also often do additional training and place dogs as service dogs as well. 

My website is outdated by more than two years right now and I have been looking for someone to do updates for me. I have been so busy with the dog training business and having babies, (twins!), that I haven't gotten around to it. I do send pedigree and clearance information to anyone that inquires about one of our dogs.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

ABC Golden Retrievers said:


> I just wanted to chime in on the clearances. The parents of Cody's dog had all of the GRCA COE clearances done prior to breeding, (so for the record, OFA hip & Elbow clearances, OFA Cardiac with a Cardiologist and current CERFs), Sire is also clear, (non-carrier), for Ichthyosis.
> 
> In addition we also did eye and heart checks on his dog and hip and elbow prelims, (at 15 months old). The prelims were digital and we gave him a copy for his records. She was also spayed a few weeks before she went home.



Thank you for clearing that up!

Julie and the boys


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I'm curious as to the type of breeders that sells their pups to such a company. Are there generations of complete clearances behind the pups. Does the breeder ever know where their pups end up? If a person can't keep the dog, does it go back to ABC or back to the original breeder?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

hmmm.... I am curious too. I have never heard of any breeder friends placing puppies with these folks to train and resell. I would be surprised too, as well bred puppies are generally very hard to come by in southern california these days. Both of my litters have been sold before they were born with many disappointed people leftover. 

ABC, what breeders are you getting your puppies from?


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## ABC Golden Retrievers (Nov 30, 2011)

SheetsSM, Yes, there are generations of complete clearances behind all of our dogs. I do have an extensive screening process for potential families and the breeder does get information on who the dog is going to as well as regular updates once the dog has gone home. I have a clause in my contract requiring that I get the dog back if the new family is no longer able to keep them. I would also notify the breeder if I were to get a dog back.


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

Ljilly28 said:


> Sylvia publishes the golden retriever news, and has a wealth of info. Network with her and get some solid advice. Here are some other good breeders.
> 
> Birnam Wood
> Sylvia Donahey
> ...


And be sure to get the seven year health guarantee in writing.:wavey:


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## ABC Golden Retrievers (Nov 30, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy, I will PM you.


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## ABC Golden Retrievers (Nov 30, 2011)

The seven year health guarantee is in my contract, they do get it in writing.


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

ABC Golden Retrievers said:


> The seven year health guarantee is in my contract, they do get it in writing.


Yes..I did understand that. And I'm sure those other reputable breeders that were suggested as an alternative to your service, must surely offer at least the 7 year guarantee on their healthy puppies that you're offering?? NO?


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