# alright...I need some suggestions



## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

It does take a while to get them used to the crate. You might try draping a sheet over the crate to make it feel more den like. Good like to you.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Here's the good news - that's nuthin' in terms of crate tantrums!

FYI, it's not that she hates the *crate* -- she's protesting that she, as a pack animal, is being asked to spend time away from the pack. How to be away from the pack is a very important lesson for a young pup.

When you feed her in it, put the food in the back so she has to go in farther. Don't close her in yet, just have her go in to eat and come out. Toss treats in the back, she eat them and comes out. Then toss treats in, as she goes in, close the doof but be ready with a handful of treats and as she turns to come out (but can't b/c the door is closed) start feeding her through the door.

DO these things often.

Take her out for a walk or a romp to tire her out. Make sure she's peed. Crate her and cover the crate with a sheet. COMPLETELY COVER IT. If she starts to bark and carry on, say nothing, but walk over and whack the top of the crate with your hand. I call it the "silencing hand from above." Usually only have to whack the crate (it makes a noise to startle the dog) a couple times. I bet w/in 15 mins, she's quiet.

Practice having her crated several times a day - not just when you really *need* her to be crated. Practice makes perfect.

NEVER LET HER OUT WHEN CRYING! You'll teach her that crying = getting out.


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## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

What I do, once he is placed into the crate I completely ignore him. Zero response, zero looking, no speaking, body language posturing as if he isn't even in the room... ignore him 110%. If they howl and they get a reaction, then it won't stop. 

The first few times I placed him in his crate, I did it with a Kong filled with the peanut butter flavored stuff. Now he only gets his kongs at bedtime. The Kong filling he is NUTS for, so it makes crating fun and pleasant. I also place a sheet over the top and sides his crate to make it dark like a den.

The first two days he spent a LOT of time in the crate, every single nap, in he went. We had the crate right next to the sofa so he didn't feel alone. We did this so he got used to the fact that the crate isn't a naughty spot, simply his bed and den. We still have him nap there now about 75% of the time, and he goes in there willingly.

His crate section is divided off to be rather tight and snug, he has enough room to stand up, turn around and lay down, nothing more than that. He goes in there with his stuffed duck or frog, his kong and sometimes his rope frog toy.

Second tip. When coming out of the crate, don't let them rush out. When I open the door, Rummy has to lick me first and be petted, once he is being a good boy sitting there, I invite him out. Now, he never tries to come out of the crate unless invited or unless it's overnight and he has to pee super bad.

He actually ENJOYS his crate now. No joke. He rolls on his back paws straight up in the air... it's his safe zone. :

Edited to add: I also very much disagree with the advice somebody gave you on whacking the crate. It makes the crate an unpleasant zone of discipline instead of a safe haven/den/bed.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> If she starts to bark and carry on, say nothing, but walk over and whack the top of the crate with your hand. I call it the "silencing hand from above." Usually only have to whack the crate (it makes a noise to startle the dog) a couple times. I bet w/in 15 mins, she's quiet.


I usually try not to disagree with the Quiz, since she's got more experience with more dogs than I do, as well as more credentials. Also, I think she's completely right about the importance of acclimating the dog to an open crate using food and also about the value of putting a sheet over it during the times you want quiet.

But in terms of hitting the crate, I'd be concerned that making it clang like that might add to the dog's anxiety. I actually used to do this (got it from the Monks' book), and it does help silence the dog in the short term. However, I was concerned it might develop a negative association with the crate and interfere with the dog's feeling comfortable and tired, so I switched back to just ignoring. Ignoring definitely does work, though you do have to invest in those first couple of days where they cry for quite a while.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Just in case anyone is misunderstanding the whack the crate trick -- I'm not talking an earth-shattering whack, just a sudden noise to interrupt the unwanted behavior. The idea is to startle, not shatter. If a dog is just throwing a hissy fit b/c he's protesting having to be in the crate, I've found it's just enough to get them to stop fussing long enough so that you have a non-barking behavior to reward. Plus, many people in apartments or with sleeping babies CAN'T wait out the barking/whining/screaming and a whack on the crate is way better, IMO, than choosing to let the dog out of the crate for screaming b/c they logistically can't have a screaming dog in the house.

FWIW, I've done this w/ all my own dogs and the dogs of many, many clients and I've never seen it turn a dog against a crate. Not saying it isn't *possible* but I don't think it's likely w/ a hissy fit dog.

If I have a dog who is truly having a severe anxiety issue w/ being crated (vs. a hissy fit) then I wouldn't do it -- I'd be working way slower and not closing the dog up in the crate at that point anyway.

Just wanted to clarify.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Just in case anyone is misunderstanding the whack the crate trick -- I'm not talking an earth-shattering whack, just a sudden noise to interrupt the unwanted behavior. The idea is to startle, not shatter. If a dog is just throwing a hissy fit b/c he's protesting having to be in the crate, I've found it's just enough to get them to stop fussing long enough so that you have a non-barking behavior to reward. Plus, many people in apartments or with sleeping babies CAN'T wait out the barking/whining/screaming and a whack on the crate is way better, IMO, than choosing to let the dog out of the crate for screaming b/c they logistically can't have a screaming dog in the house.
> 
> FWIW, I've done this w/ all my own dogs and the dogs of many, many clients and I've never seen it turn a dog against a crate. Not saying it isn't *possible* but I don't think it's likely w/ a hissy fit dog.
> 
> ...


Well said. I still don't think it's ideal when you can accomplish a similar goal by ignoring, but if you simply can't have the yelping and screaming for those first few days, it's definitely a better alternative than letting the pup out.

And I also fully agree that a slow leadup is superior in any case, since a full-on screaming freakout is a good sign that you need to do some low-key work in and around the crate to build positive associations.


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## Noey (Feb 26, 2009)

It looks like normal puppy stuff.

You really have to let them "complain" until they stop. It's hard, but they learn fast. You also have to put them in when you in the house as well as leaving. So the association is not every time I'm in this they leave.

My vet told us to put a towel in the crate that has your scent on it as well for security. 

Throw treats in the crate to get, but do not close the door. Have them learn they can go in and out when the door is open. 

So cute and so little. They grow so fast.

Wait until the pup learns to unlock the crate and scale walls....


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

For puppies I do the same as Stephanie...it ends the carrying on quite fast.
Have with every puppy except Lexi...

With Lexi who was older and not crate trained....I did the "ALL food is eaten in the crate". She was so food motivated...that she would go in her crate just _in hopes_ that someone would notice her in there and toss her some food! 

Trace reverted to fussing in the crate when he was around 7 months. He would not wait quietly in his crate if I was working another dog...so out came the crate cover and the hand of doG. 

They all still volunteer to crate when they want to relax...


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

That is absolutely nothing compared to how most puppies react when being crated for the first few times. My pup literally screamed bloody murder in his crate when we first got him. The only thing that you can do is ignore the tantrum, wait for a couple of minutes of quiet, and then let her out. Letting her out of the crate every time she barks or whines very quickly teaches a puppy that throwing a fit is what will result in them being let out of the crate. They learn this VERY fast. It's very important, as hard as it is, to ignore the puppy while she's having a tantrum in her crate. She will eventually tire herself out and go to sleep. She will get used to the crate soon enough. Once our pup got used to his crate schedule, he started going in on his own. As soon as he comes inside from his last time out at night, he goes right into his crate because he knows it's bedtime and that has never changed in the almost 6 months we have had him.


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## olik (Apr 13, 2008)

try to exhaust her before putting in the crate.Get a good walk,play at home.And like everybody said-ignore her.It take some time.Good luck.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

You have gotten great suggestions here already so I will not add to them. but what I did want to chime in on was the video. If you think that is "going crazy" you are in for some real insanity over the next few months. All she is doing is trying to establish herself as the lead dog in your pack. If you give into that behavior she will soon be putting the collar on you and taking you for a walk. :bowl: She is just being an adorable :heartbeat little *BRAT *and with your help will grow out of it.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I had to do the 'whack' and then put a leash on Storee and run it through the side of the crate, so when she had her tantrum I could pop her with the leash. Yes, she was tired, she's just very vocal and determined. Opening the crate to tell her to be quiet didn't work for her at all, so that's what we had to do.

That works very well, and did until she figured out how to pull the leash in - as soon as she had it all in with her she'd have a fit.:doh: She's fine in a crate now, it's a bit of tough love that they need sometimes.

Lana


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## divinedecadencex (Jan 15, 2009)

that wasnt going crazy....i just added it on the end....... whats was bad was her biting the cage and stuff


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Oh my goodness, that's nothing! You should have seen Flora when I first put her in her crate - she screamed to high heaven, howled, dug, scratched at the bars, and had diarrhea all over her crate. She had major anxiety with her crate.

The good news... dogs get used to their crates very fast. It took about 2 weeks of solid training with Flora for her anxiety to go away (now I can pop her in the crate for 20 minutes while I go shower or something and I'll come downstairs to a sleeping pup), but I bet with a lot of positive reinforcement your puppy will learn to accept her crate in no time.  I would always feed meals in the crate, place treats in there ALL the time, praise her when she walked in there on her own (which is rare), etc.

I then started building up how long I would leave her in the crate. I would place 2 or three excellent chews she only gets in her crate (stuffed kongs, a smoked bone, a flossy), toss in some few treats to distract her, close the door, and walk away. 10 minutes, 20, 30... after 30 minutes I sort of feel like they don't know the difference between 30 minutes and 3 hours. When I let her out, I immediately remove the awesome chew toys. I also ignore Flora for about 5 minutes (unless she has to go potty) after letting her out. Ignoring her is important because then she doesn't associate being let out with good things like getting petted and fawned over. Oh, and at the beginning, if she was still whining when her time was up, I would putz around in the room her crate was in until she quieted down, THEN I would let her out. Only when she was quiet and lying down.

Anyways... I don't think you will have to do as intensive training as I had to, since Sophie looks like she's displaying normal puppy behavior. 

Good luck!


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## Auretrvr (May 6, 2008)

*Quizini has good advice!*

<Take her out for a walk or a romp to tire her out. Make sure she's peed. Crate her and cover the crate with a sheet. COMPLETELY COVER IT. If she starts to bark and carry on, say nothing, but walk over and whack the top of the crate with your hand. I call it the "silencing hand from above." Usually only have to whack the crate (it makes a noise to startle the dog) a couple times. I bet w/in 15 mins, she's quiet.>

The covering and startle whack "from God" absolutely worked with Henry. He was in the room with us, so he wasn't lonely. Give it a try.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Sophie is SO cute no wonder you can't stand her crying! The biting the wire always bothered me too so the faster you can get her to be OK with it the better.

Everyone has given excellent advice. I agree too with those who said wear her out before she goes in. She doesn't appear tired at all in the video. : )

The only thing about "whacking " the top. I would only use this as a last resort. (and I worship at your feet Steph!) This would have totally wrecked Gunner as he is so sensitive but doesn't come across that way generally at all. That was why it was so shocking when we realized it. Telling him in a normal voice by DH to get off the couch was traumatic to Gunner. I realize he is the exception and I digress here....

Good Luck! I'm sure she will be fine. She is so adorable! Loved your video. It brought back so many memories!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Debles said:


> The only thing about "whacking " the top. I would only use this as a last resort. (and I worship at your feet Steph!) This would have totally wrecked Gunner as he is so sensitive but doesn't come across that way generally at all. That was why it was so shocking when we realized it.


That would be my concern. A dog who has serious anxiety or is sound-sensitive might experience a serious setback. Given that there are dogs whose crate anxiety seems related to metallic sounds, a whack on the crate might play right into those fears.

I guess I'm drawn to this kind of thinking because I used to mix negative corrections much more in my training, but every time I've been able to take the negatives out of an aspect of training, I've been happier with the dog's attitude overall. 

So it's certainly a useful technique, but like all negative correction, it needs to be applied very carefully and with full knowledge of potential unintended consequences.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Debles said:


> The only thing about "whacking " the top. I would only use this as a last resort. (and I worship at your feet Steph!) This would have totally wrecked Gunner as he is so sensitive but doesn't come across that way generally at all. That was why it was so shocking when we realized it. Telling him in a normal voice by DH to get off the couch was traumatic to Gunner. I realize he is the exception and I digress here....


Do you know where my feet have been?!?!? :uhoh: Haha!

Seriously - there are lots of ways to train a dog. Whenever possible, I prefer to use primarily positive reinforcemen, but like I pointed out earlier, sometimes there isn't enough time to gradually shape for the final behavior you want. That's where well-timed and appropriate aversives can be useful. The other thing to keep in mind is that "whack" can be interpreted to mean lots of things. On a confident dog like my Quiz, he had no problem with a "whack". The purpose is to startle the dog just enough to get a moment of quiet. On a softer dog, maybe it's more of a tap -- just *something* in the environment that stands out as "different" so the dog notices it and stops barking for a second. Now you have a nano-second of quiet (even though you created it w/ the startle) and you can reward that and build on it.

I'm not trying to convince people to whack crates -- I just want to make sure people understand it's about startling, not scaring, so really, it's possible that it can even be used on "soft" dogs... you just dial the technique way down. The point is that any technique must be adjusted to to meet the overall temperament of the dog - and yes, some techniques aren't right for some dogs. It was just concerning me that, because people kept posting about the whack traumatizing dogs, that maybe it was being seen as far more severe -- as least compared to how I use it.


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## divinedecadencex (Jan 15, 2009)

*NEWS FLASH*
haha

she is doing BETTER. I have put her in there off and on today, and she is not NEARLY as loud and crazy, she is pretty quiet with a little whining here and there. I have been giving her a treat when she is quiet and then walking away again, and repeat. She is still in there right now, shes whining a little bit.

I moved the crate into my living room for now, it cant stay there forever, because its to big, and my living room is to small, but for now, so she isnt completly cut off, it will be okay.

I also have been trying to get her to wait, and come out when i tell her to, and not charging out.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I LOVE your sig! She is so darling! We also had a Sophie. She lived to be 14.


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## divinedecadencex (Jan 15, 2009)

Well, shes doing great. She isnt going in there on her own, but when i put her in there she is barly crying, and laying down and going to sleep. She's going really well. Im working on making her go in her crate on her own, but this is def a step!


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