# Vet put fear of God in me over raw diet



## blondewithagolden (Feb 1, 2018)

I know there are several threads on this but not sure how to bump them so apologies if starting a new thread is a faux pas.

I welcomed home an adorably energetic little land shark over the holidays. His name is Remy and he's just darling (thank god too because he's a bit of terrorist sometimes!) I have only had him about a month and he is 4 1/2 months old. I have been feeding him the BARF raw diet 3x a day. Since starting him on the raw diet his puppy dandruff (or possibly ichthyosis, have not had him tested yet) has significantly decreased, his coat is much softer and shinier, and his energy level seems higher. 

I took him to the vet for his vaccinations and my vet was extremely concerned about my feeding raw. She put the fear of God in me, to put it frankly. She feels his growth WILL be stunted and/or potential joint & bone issues WILL be exacerbated as the raw diet does not provide sufficient nutrients for a growing puppy. I got the impression she felt feeding raw bordered on negligence at his age. 

I purchase the raw food from my local canine nutritionist in frozen packs. She has told me the packs include muscle, organ meat and some vegetables- enough to fill all Remy's nutrient requirements. I also give him goat's milk as a probiotic 2x a day and include a teaspoon of coconut oil as well to help with his dry skin. 

Has anyone had issues with feeding a Golden a raw diet from puppyhood? Any issues as forewarned by my vet? I am not married to either feeding method- I just want to feed whatever is best for my puppy.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

No bone in the formula? Or eggshell?


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## blondewithagolden (Feb 1, 2018)

Yes to bone, not sure about eggshell...


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

A couple of questions for you.

Are you making this diet ( BARF) yourself or are you buying it pre-made? 

Is it raw or freeze dried raw? 

Is there a link that you are able to share regarding the ratios of muscle meat, offal ( organ meat) and bone in the diet? Does the food have a nutritional analysis available? 

Bottom line is that if you ensure that you are feeding a complete balanced raw diet, your pup will thrive on it.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I fed raw for more than 30 years. My vet at that time actually got me hooked...via (amazing) horsemeat.

My dogs thrived- beautiful teeth, great poops, never any anal gland issues, or coat or skin issues. THAT said,
raw feeding takes a considerable commitment and also real solid knowledge on dog's nutritional needs. I never ever encouraged puppy buyers to feed raw, because it is not easy. And nowadays, there are lots of raw companies one can buy pre-made from- but whether they hire a nutritionist or not, and whether that person's knowledge base is built on the BARF philosophy which imo is lacking or is built on real nutrition understanding would make or break it imo. 

I do not feed raw now- I have taken over care of my 88 YO father and cannot take the chance with the bacteria- but might one day go back to it... and might not. There isn't any satisfaction in kibble for me but at the same time, my dogs are still thriving.... and now I have a whole generation who have never had a raw meal and other than the poop needing to be picked up (raw pretty quickly turns to while sandy poop that you only have to hit w a shovel and it's part of the soil) and the teeth needing to be scaled, I honestly haven't seen a huge difference. 
I would suggest you do lots of research... find out the education of the provider re: food... and get a nutritionist's opinion on whether the food is satisfying the dog's needs. You really do have to worry about balance of phosphorus (meat) and calcium (bone).


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

I totally agree with Robin ( Prism) above.

If one chooses to feed raw, you must ensure that you are feeding a complete species appropriate raw diet to your dog or pup. 

There are many new raw pre-made diets on the market now. 

Unless you find one that lists the caloric content, nutritional breakdown, % of overall makeup of the food, I would be leary. There is also a huge difference in prepared raw foods that use HHP ( high pressure processing) vs non. HPP destroys many of the nutrients and benefits of a raw diet. 

I was very leary to move Brisby to a raw diet. I went home cooked first, did Hillary's Blend which is now called something else etc.

**edit** When I was first considering raw, I had a DVM, very much like yours telling me about all the horrible things, bacteria, salmonella etc. The odd thing was that she was working for a holistic DVM whom was my main reason for changing vets, who totally supported a raw diet ( complete, balanced etc) ...go figure. She is the one who scared me into home cooked using Hillary's blend vs a raw diet. Once I got back to the original DVM whom I had chosen for the methodology of her practice, I realized that all DVMs are NOT on the same page, even those who purport to be "holistic". That is when I was fortunate to find a homeopathic DVM ***end edit** 

I had our new, very well accredited DVM scrutinize the food I chose to ensure it was complete and balanced, and to suggest what she felt were necessary supplements. In fact, a raw diet is what she recommends for a healthy and long life, provided it is complete and balanced for dogs of all life stages from puppy to senior.

I can't be more happy that I have moved Brisby to a balanced raw diet. It has made a HUGE difference in her overall health.

I think it is important to keep in mind that most DVMs are not educated in canine nutrition to the level that perhaps they should be. 

Secondly, feeding raw food to our dogs is no different than us handling raw meat at home when we cook, if we choose to eat steak tartar/similar, cevice, sushi, rare steak/burgers etc.. 

blondewithagolden, please don't be frightened away by a DVM who perhaps is only repeating what they think they know and what they believe. 

You can do a raw diet for your pup, have it thrive and be healthy. I would suggest that if you want to continue with a raw diet that you find a DVM who will support your decision and not scare you....one who is open to whole body health. 

Good hygiene habits is paramount when handling raw either for ourselves or our dogs is what is key. I can't understand if there is such a "fear factor" in feeding a raw diet to our dogs, then what about us handling raw meat any/all times when we cook?

This is "food for thought" from http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...rvival-series-rethinking-canine-epidemic.html

It IMHO is a must watch for all who want the best of health for their beloved pups.






Good luck with your pup, your journey and your decision


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

My dogs thrive on primarily raw - I do feed kibble a few times a week to ensure they can digest it when the are overnighting with others (trainer, breeder and other trusted people)

My current base is by Blue Ridge Buffalo and I get combinations with either organ meats or finely ground bones and rotate the meat.

They get freshly made green smoothies (lettuces, kale, cucumber, coconut oil, flax seed) with either yogurt or eggshells as well as anything left over in the fridge such as eggs, other veggies, sometimes cooked meat etc

My vets love the shape and condition they are in.

Feeding a raw diet is not difficult although it can be time consuming depending on which model you follow -- for instance the smoothie my dogs get takes about 20-25 minutes a day to chop veggies and prepare and I am at the grocery store several times a week picking up organic produce -- but then I also have some of the smoothie for breakfast and tend to make my lunch (salad) as I am preparing thesmoothie 

I used to add carrots and sometimes other veggies for the dogs but have stopped using root vegetables mostly due to the higher carb content. Veggies need to be either cooked or pureed for a dog to be able to digest -- I use a VitaMix.


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## blondewithagolden (Feb 1, 2018)

I'm buying premade raw meal packs. The brand is Oma's Pride which is advertised (and was sold to me) as a complete nutrition regimen. For the first two weeks I fed the chicken packs, and have now been on the lamb for about a week and a half. Lamb pack ingredients are lamb breast meat and bone, lamb heart, carrots, lamb liver, zucchini and parsley.

I don't see a breakdown in the nutrition info that specifically addresses the offals v muscle, etc. I am trying to educate myself as quickly as I can on identifying and analyzing the nutrition ratios to make sure I'm feeding a balanced diet. However- there is a lot of information out there and I don't want my pup to suffer as a result of my learning curve.

Are you familiar with this brand? Any thoughts?

Online Shop - Oma's Pride Raw Food & More - Oma's Pride RAW Signature Mixes - Oma's Pride


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## blondewithagolden (Feb 1, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> I fed raw for more than 30 years. My vet at that time actually got me hooked...via (amazing) horsemeat.
> 
> My dogs thrived- beautiful teeth, great poops, never any anal gland issues, or coat or skin issues. THAT said,
> raw feeding takes a considerable commitment and also real solid knowledge on dog's nutritional needs. I never ever encouraged puppy buyers to feed raw, because it is not easy. And nowadays, there are lots of raw companies one can buy pre-made from- but whether they hire a nutritionist or not, and whether that person's knowledge base is built on the BARF philosophy which imo is lacking or is built on real nutrition understanding would make or break it imo.
> ...


I'm buying premade meal packs sold by my nutritionist, the brand is Oma's Pride. I brought my puppy into her office so that she could see him and give me accurate instructions on how much to feed him, what his nutritional needs are, etc. She told me the meal packs should be sufficient for all my puppy's nutrient requirements. However, you bring up the point that does make me apprehensive- I'm not a canine nutrition expert and don't really have the knowledge yet to know 100% that my puppy is getting everything he needs.

He's also my first Golden, and first large breed dog for that matter. Previous to that my family has always had smaller breeds, jack russell terriers, **** zus and dachshunds. All of them were fed an organic kibble diet and NOT raw (I would certainly have considering feeding raw had I known about it then.) 

I'm fearful of doing more harm than good by feeding a raw diet that isn't giving Remy what he needs! He seems to be doing well on the raw, but my vet was so adamant that I was signing him up for major growth problems it has really sent me into a tailspin.


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## blondewithagolden (Feb 1, 2018)

Yaichi's Mom said:


> I totally agree with Robin ( Prism) above.
> 
> If one chooses to feed raw, you must ensure that you are feeding a complete species appropriate raw diet to your dog or pup.
> 
> ...


Thank you (and to all respondents) for your advice and guidance! I very much agree on the hygiene habits, I don't really have a concern about handling raw since I do it daily anyway while cooking for myself and am able to keep everything sanitized.

I am buying premade, Oma's Pride is the brand. I have no idea if it's prepared HHP or HPP! It does offer a nutritional breakdown in the way of fats, proteins, etc but doesn't breakdown organ v muscle v veg ratios (at least as far as I can tell). I also don't see any calorie counts. It's sold as a total nutrition package, but since I don't have much experience in this arena I feel at the mercy of the brand and my nutritionist. 

I agree that if I continue to feed raw I will probably have to find a new vet because my current vet was crystal clear in her assertion feeding raw is not acceptable. 

It seems it's not make or break for my puppy's health if I feed him kibble instead of raw, but those who feed raw generally have glowing accolades for it, which makes me inclined to stick to it if I'm sure my pup is getting what he needs.

When you were doing homemade were you creating your own recipes or following already put together recipes? And how you feel it compares with the raw you are purchasing now?


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## blondewithagolden (Feb 1, 2018)

Sunrise said:


> My dogs thrive on primarily raw - I do feed kibble a few times a week to ensure they can digest it when the are overnighting with others (trainer, breeder and other trusted people)
> 
> My current base is by Blue Ridge Buffalo and I get combinations with either organ meats or finely ground bones and rotate the meat.
> 
> ...


I have green smoothies all the time, never thought about incorporating that into Remy's diet...that's a great idea!

At this point in my life I do have not children and I work from home. So I do have the time to feed raw and (hopefully) educate myself on the mechanics of the diet. 

So far the responses on this thread are encouraging. I've noticed however that the premade brand I'm feeding, Oma's Pride, doesn't list a breakdown of the ingredient ratios (aside from fat, protein, etc) and I'm concerned it's not an appropriate balance for my puppy. I suppose I could email Oma's Pride or ask my nutritionist...do you make you own raw meat blends or feed premade?


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

blondewithagolden said:


> I'm buying premade raw meal packs. The brand is Oma's Pride which is advertised (and was sold to me) as a complete nutrition regimen. For the first two weeks I fed the chicken packs, and have now been on the lamb for about a week and a half. Lamb pack ingredients are lamb breast meat and bone, lamb heart, carrots, lamb liver, zucchini and parsley.
> 
> I don't see a breakdown in the nutrition info that specifically addresses the offals v muscle, etc. I am trying to educate myself as quickly as I can on identifying and analyzing the nutrition ratios to make sure I'm feeding a balanced diet. However- there is a lot of information out there and I don't want my pup to suffer as a result of my learning curve.
> 
> ...


I am not familiar with this brand as I am in Canada.

I took a quick look at the site and personally I would like to see a better breakdown/nutritional analysis. What I did notice is that their recommended feeding is to feed bone for the morning meal and then the meals for dinner. I can't tell if there is any bone content in the actual food and/or how much.

Suggested Feeding

Here is an example of nutritional analysis that I am referring to. This is what I feed ( a Canadian Company)

BigCountry Raw | Lamb Dinner - 

Click on the nutritional analysis tab at the link above to see what I mean.

The above is what our DVM looked at to ensure that it was a complete balanced diet with a few additions/supplements ( organic kefir, raw egg with shell 3Xs/wk, Green Min and Soul Food )


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

blondewithagolden said:


> Thank you (and to all respondents) for your advice and guidance! I very much agree on the hygiene habits, I don't really have a concern about handling raw since I do it daily anyway while cooking for myself and am able to keep everything sanitized.
> 
> I am buying premade, Oma's Pride is the brand. I have no idea if it's prepared HHP or HPP! It does offer a nutritional breakdown in the way of fats, proteins, etc but doesn't breakdown organ v muscle v veg ratios (at least as far as I can tell). I also don't see any calorie counts. It's sold as a total nutrition package, but since I don't have much experience in this arena I feel at the mercy of the brand and my nutritionist.


There are many good commercial foods out there. Dr Will Falconer has put out a recommended list, however I can only find it on Facebook. I don't know if this link will work for you, however if you have a FB account, try it to see the list: 
https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/RawFood-Final%2017.pdf?token=AWx0P_0KZe1qP8CdsmT3uK3cUlTsz6EWilS_yF-4b_NuchfYbVppr2r0dpSdGA1b6nuD0szuGhsua62n7E75J_hHqsQsH2IGpLDZSNoIo3d-77ljZalyhmftZqLRJx4gFGn-0MNTOTfdD69LOTaUv7F2R_eJ2HnqAEaH7aWCc_N3vg

I have addressed some of your other questions in an earlier post as I didn't see this reply first.




> I agree that if I continue to feed raw I will probably have to find a new vet because my current vet was crystal clear in her assertion feeding raw is not acceptable.
> 
> It seems it's not make or break for my puppy's health if I feed him kibble instead of raw, but those who feed raw generally have glowing accolades for it, which makes me inclined to stick to it if I'm sure my pup is getting what he needs.


I think that it is very important to find a DVM who will work with you and support your decisions. If I could turn back the clock I would have started Brisby off on a raw diet in lieu of migrating from Orijen, to home cooked to raw. 



> When you were doing homemade were you creating your own recipes or following already put together recipes? And how you feel it compares with the raw you are purchasing now?


I also had a DVM a couple of years ago that did not support a raw diet. She suggest a home cooked diet and suggested Hilary's Blend, so I bought the book from her and the supplements and started to make the recipes. They were labor intensive, required a lot of specific weighing/measuring which I did, made the food in large batches and froze it. I didn't like the consistency of it, Brisby wasn't crazy about it, so I started to cook my own recipes, however was concerned about them being nutritionally balanced and complete. 

I now had a DVM who supported both home cooked but specifically raw, so I took the plunge and have never looked back. I have full support from our vet, she has taken a good look at the pre-made food I am feeding and thinks it is excellent. She does suggest some vitamin/mineral supplements which she feeds to her own dogs, which I add and some organic kefir and raw egg with shell several times/week. Feeding a good commercial raw diet is very easy. All you do is weigh the amount you need to feed, add your supplements and that's it. Seeing the difference this diet has made for Brisby and 3 of our GR friends, I would never go back to kibble nor ever feed anything else.


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## Gleepers (Apr 20, 2016)

My canine nutritionists site thepossiblecanine has a lot of info on diet formulation. She also has recently been running tutorial classes for around $40 to give people extra help in learning how to do it themselves. 
Everything is based on existing science for nutrient requirements. 

If you are interested in learning to do it yourself I highly recommend her.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

I only read prism response didn't read anyone elses. So first thing your vet is wrong, uneducated and ill-informated. Second i highly recommend to watch petfooled documentary and do some research on raw diet. Look into Darwin raw food, it is weighted to our dogs size has all the required nutrition. Do not take your vets word as fact do your research i have had a vet tell me a raw egg isnt good for the dogs skin or keeping the dog intact for the first heat cycle is bad, after i explained my research and my reasons they all conceded that yes i was correct and the research did in fact back up what i was saying but that they did not know all the facts. Just do your own research.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

I'm doing a slow transition for my dog to Stella & Chewy's. However, to Yaichi's Mom's point it is freeze dried. My holistic vet highly recommended it because it provides all the nutrients (organ meat and calcium). However, it's very pricey so I'm now exploring turkey from Honest Kitchen and mixing with Zignature Turkey. I'm trying to find the right balance. 

Since adding raw to Duke's diet, his stomach has settled down, his coat has gotten softer and his stools have dramatically improved. I'm probably going to transition Charlie as well.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I use 2 sources of meat for a baseline. They both have distributors that come to my area on a monthly basis.

Blue Ridge Beef (could be buffalo)
Top Quality Dog Food 

TQDF has a broader choice including tripe and game, but is over an hour drive each way so I tend not to order from them in the winter. They also offer blends which include veggies, bones and items like kelp. 

The BRB distributor delivers to a park n ride less than 10 minutes from my home  safer in the winter!

If you use FB there may be raw feeding groups in your area that give information on distributors or even butchers in your area where you can purchase food.




blondewithagolden said:


> I have green smoothies all the time, never thought about incorporating that into Remy's diet...that's a great idea!
> 
> At this point in my life I do have not children and I work from home. So I do have the time to feed raw and (hopefully) educate myself on the mechanics of the diet.
> 
> So far the responses on this thread are encouraging. I've noticed however that the premade brand I'm feeding, Oma's Pride, doesn't list a breakdown of the ingredient ratios (aside from fat, protein, etc) and I'm concerned it's not an appropriate balance for my puppy. I suppose I could email Oma's Pride or ask my nutritionist...do you make you own raw meat blends or feed premade?


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## djg2121 (Nov 22, 2015)

https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/raw-chicken-linked-to-paralysis-in-dogs

https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/FAQs/Pages/Raw-Pet-Foods-and-the-AVMA-Policy-FAQ.aspx

https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Pa...imal-Source-Protein-in-Cat-and-Dog-Diets.aspx


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## JoannaNYC (Dec 9, 2013)

I am an ardent raw feeder who has ignored the advice of many vets, who simply have no nutritional training except the Big Brand corn pellet sponsored seminars in school. 

This is an example what one type from your brand includes: Lamb breast meat & bone, lamb heart, carrots, lamb liver, zucchini, parsley.

Dogs do not need carbs at all, but that is always debated between various raw feeder types, but they do need bone, whether ground in a mix or even better fed as whole pieces of meat, like a chicken quarter or slice of pork with bone.


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## JoannaNYC (Dec 9, 2013)

Sunrise said:


> I use 2 sources of meat for a baseline. They both have distributors that come to my area on a monthly basis.
> 
> Blue Ridge Beef (could be buffalo)
> Top Quality Dog Food
> ...


I also use TQDF as one source, mostly for the beef grinds with organs and for tripe, but purchase other meats, such as bone in chicken, pork and turkey from Restaurant Depot, Western Beef or supermarket sales.


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## Guido (Sep 2, 2016)

Never feed a Golden Retriever Pup a raw diet. You’re begging for joint issues that way.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Guido said:


> Never feed a Golden Retriever Pup a raw diet. You’re begging for joint issues that way.


Why so?
I have had (though I honestly do not believe there is any correlation) zero fairs or fails in all the years I fed raw- 35 years or so. Since going to kibble-4 years- have had two fairs (still no fails).


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Please back this statement up. 

I have fed many golden pups raw and they have all passed clearances (hip, elbows, heart, eyes etc) without problems. And tend to be long lived and 2 of my current dogs are still competing at 10 and nearly 10.



Guido said:


> Never feed a Golden Retriever Pup a raw diet. You’re begging for joint issues that way.


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## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

I am still a bit sceptical about feeding my dog raw but she now eats homemade cooked food ! She had broccoli with carrots chicken and pork belly(no fat)









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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Very pretty (and satisfying to prepare!) but if this is her diet, Ca+ is missing except for the tiny amount in the broccoli......


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

"Never feed a Golden Retriever Pup a raw diet. You’re begging for joint issues that way"
Really... That means wolf, coyote and fox pups all have joint issues. Dogs digest the same basic way. The biggest difference in digestion is the fact a domestic dog can digest starch better due to a gene mutation, that is it. A raw diet isn't as dehydrated as a kibble one and pound for pound it is healthier if done right. So please O wise one tell us the error on our ways.

Sources
https://www.netflix.com/title/80164393

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/01/diet-shaped-dog-domestication


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## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

Prism Goldens said:


> Very pretty (and satisfying to prepare!) but if this is her diet, Ca+ is missing except for the tiny amount in the broccoli......


I usually add an egg with the shell ! I just didn't have any eggs this morning! She eats veggies allowed for dogs, beef, chicken,pork, salmon debonned and tuna ! 
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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

That does look good, but why no fat? My dogs get coconut oil & flax seed in their smoothies every day and other fats that may be on any leftovers they may find in the bowls (usually Kellygold butter or EVOO)

Without fat your dog may be too low on calories and/or develop dry skin & coat



Vika the Golden ! said:


> I am still a bit sceptical about feeding my dog raw but she now eats homemade cooked food ! She had broccoli with carrots chicken and pork belly(no fat)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

Sunrise said:


> That does look good, but why no fat? My dogs get coconut oil & flax seed in their smoothies every day and other fats that may be on any leftovers they may find in the bowls (usually Kellygold butter or EVOO)
> 
> Without fat your dog may be too low on calories and/or develop dry skin & coat


I will putt some coconut oil tonight !! I started cooking for my dog about 3 days ago so I am still learning ! But thanks for the advice ! I'll will definitely start adding fat in her diet ! Thanks again for your advice !

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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Vika the Golden ! said:


> I usually add an egg with the shell ! I just didn't have any eggs this morning! She eats veggies allowed for dogs, beef, chicken,pork, salmon debonned and tuna !
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


Eggshell has trace minerals and CaCO3.... and the yolk also has Ca+ but do watch the Calcium phosphorus ratio... which should be 1.2 :1 (so a considerable amount of Ca+ to meat...)


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## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

Prism Goldens said:


> Eggshell has trace minerals and CaCO3.... and the yolk also has Ca+ but do watch the Calcium phosphorus ratio... which should be 1.2 :1 (so a considerable amount of Ca+ to meat...)


Is one egg enough? 

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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

this is part of learning to calculate your input....

but in reality, it is dependent on how much phosphorus the dog is ingesting. There is a super worksheet somewhere, when Maxie first started vet school she sent me a link to it and you could input all the dog ate, weight, age, repro status... I will see if she still has it somewhere I do not.... but it was quite useful since it calculated for you what was actually going in to the dog. Maybe SIANDVM knows of it? I will ask.


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## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

Prism Goldens said:


> this is part of learning to calculate your input....
> 
> but in reality, it is dependent on how much phosphorus the dog is ingesting. There is a super worksheet somewhere, when Maxie first started vet school she sent me a link to it and you could input all the dog ate, weight, age, repro status... I will see if she still has it somewhere I do not.... but it was quite useful since it calculated for you what was actually going in to the dog. Maybe SIANDVM knows of it? I will ask.


Oh thank you 

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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Start slowly - maybe 1/2 tsp and gradually build up. I no longer measure LOL but I did start slowly.

FWIW: for more calcium, I add yogurt plus the ground bones and the egg shell.




Vika the Golden ! said:


> I will putt some coconut oil tonight !! I started cooking for my dog about 3 days ago so I am still learning ! But thanks for the advice ! I'll will definitely start adding fat in her diet ! Thanks again for your advice !
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## djg2121 (Nov 22, 2015)

Vika the Golden ! said:


> I am still a bit sceptical about feeding my dog raw but she now eats homemade cooked food ! She had broccoli with carrots chicken and pork belly(no fat)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree with you. Dogs are not wolves. They’ve been domesticated for thousands of years and have evolved as domesticated animals. They do not need raw meat, and there is a significant risk of a dog becoming infected with Salmonella, E. coli or other microbes. If you wouldn’t eat raw chicken or meat yourself, why would you feed it to your dog? 

http://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2016/01/raw-diets-a-healthy-choice-or-a-raw-deal/




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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

https://www.onlynaturalpet.com/holi...raw/114/raw-meat-diet-risks-and-benefits.aspx

https://peterdobias.com/blogs/blog/...te-on-the-topic-of-raw-diet-is-it-safe-or-not

https://rawdogfood.co.uk/raw-feeding-safe-salmonella-e-coli/

Canine Digestion vs. Human Digestion: What's Different? | Paw Castle


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

djg2121 said:


> If you wouldn’t eat raw chicken or meat yourself, why would you feed it to your dog?


I don't feed raw, but I kinda hate when people say this about raw. I certainly don't eat kibble, but my dog sure does. I don't eat beef, but my dog does. I don't eat goose poop, but my dog definitely does. My dog eats a lot of things that I don't.


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## Siandvm (Jun 22, 2016)

Yaichi's Mom said:


> https://www.onlynaturalpet.com/holi...raw/114/raw-meat-diet-risks-and-benefits.aspx
> 
> https://peterdobias.com/blogs/blog/...te-on-the-topic-of-raw-diet-is-it-safe-or-not
> 
> ...


The first article, although written by a veterinarian (good), does not cite sources for any of its claims (bad), nor is the veterinarian a board certified nutritionist, so is not an expert in the field (bad). Not to mention that it comes from a site which is in the business of selling a product designed for the very people it is trying to convince, so is really a sales pitch (very bad). 

The second article is also written by a veterinarian (good), but also not a nutritionist, so not an expert (bad). He does not appear to be in the business of selling anything with this article (good), but is relying solely on personal anecdotal evidence for his claims (bad). He does not even mention any scientific studies, let alone cite them (bad). 

The third article does not even say who wrote it (bad), and the person behind the website does not say he is a veterinarian (bad) but merely a fan of raw feeding (not much of a qualification). The author does cite some sources for their claims (good) but I am not sure to what end. The first citation, which is to a preliminary small study, found that some dogs fed a BARF diet shed salmonella which could be a concern for the usual populations of humans. The second citation shows basically the same results, though with a slightly larger population and different testing methods. The third citation is basically nonsense. It is written not by a veterinarian (bad) but by a chemist (irrelevant at best). He says that rabies and salmonella are the only diseases that both humans and dogs get — nonsense (how about tetanus, myasthenia gravis, hookworm, giardia, to name a few)! He refers to “scientific studies”, “salmonella”, and “bacteria” — the quotes are his, not mine, as if they are fictitious. My favorite part, which is so ironic to, me is this quote: “Remember, consumers do not make decisions with their logic. They make buying decisions with their emotions - and then use logic afterwards to justify their choices. All well-educated marketers know this...”. He is trying to use this against pet food manufacturers, but I think it shows a lack of self awareness that is on par with politicians, since raw diet proponents use people’s emotions to try to convince them that something (with little to no scientific evidence to back it up, or they would cite it in an instant) is superior to other options. 

The fourth article does not say who wrote it or what their qualifications are (bad). It does cite (and link, which is refreshing) other articles, however many are just more uncredited articles from the same source. I did find one link which sent me to an article on the relative pH of dog stomach acid and human stomach acid. The link was provided to support the claim that dog stomach acid is more acidic than human. However, if you follow the link, the study says the exact opposite!!

In contrast, the article from the Tufts clinical nutrition service which was linked earlier in this thread is written by veterinary nutritionists and cites actual scientific articles which back up their claims. 

I think that, in general, preparing food for your dog is an admirable goal, but one which should be undertaken with eyes wide open and with the guidance of at least a veterinarian or better yet a veterinary nutritionist. As the Tufts article points out, although one likely feels that a commercially available raw diet should have the right nutrient profile, that is not always the case and there can be both deficiencies and excesses of vital nutrients.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Dog digestion isn't close to that of a humans so why you would say if you wouldn't eat it then your dog wouldn't is well silly at best.


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

Thank you for your comments and critique Siandvm  

The second article is actually written by a colleague of our DVM. 

I totally agree that venturing to make a home made diet, either cooked or raw should not be taken lightly as one must ensure that it is complete, balanced and contains the correct ratios of protein, vitamins, minerals etc. for optimum growth and health. Just throwing together either a raw food or cooked food diet with some vegetables does not suffice. 

The raw diet I feed Brisby has been well scrutinized by 2 of our DVMs ( both specialists in varied modalities) and is fed at their recommendation, with supplements. 

Did you have an opportunity to view http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...rvival-series-rethinking-canine-epidemic.html when it was airing for free view? I would be interested in any comments you may have if you had opportunity to watch this series. 

The University of Helsinki has been doing some interesting research which was aired in the documentary. I have posted a snip of it here:
Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums - View Single Post - Vet put fear of God in me over raw diet

I think it is also important to note that the freezing of raw meat, prior to feeding kills most of the pathogens feared.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318003675_Raw_Meat-Based_Diets_in_Dogs_and_Cats


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Siandvm said:


> The first article, although written by a veterinarian (good), does not cite sources for any of its claims (bad), nor is the veterinarian a board certified nutritionist, so is not an expert in the field (bad). Not to mention that it comes from a site which is in the business of selling a product designed for the very people it is trying to convince, so is really a sales pitch (very bad).
> 
> The second article is also written by a veterinarian (good), but also not a nutritionist, so not an expert (bad). He does not appear to be in the business of selling anything with this article (good), but is relying solely on personal anecdotal evidence for his claims (bad). He does not even mention any scientific studies, let alone cite them (bad).
> 
> ...


I didn't get to asking you yet! Maybe you get notification when someone uses your name ... So, do you know of that program thing that Maxie shared w me 4 years ago, you input the dog's age/weight/repro status, and what he ate the last 48 hours (I think- it might have been 72) and it told you what you were missing? I will ask her too- but I am sure her brain let that info go as soon as she gave it to me... I should've kept it...


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## Siandvm (Jun 22, 2016)

Prism Goldens said:


> I didn't get to asking you yet! Maybe you get notification when someone uses your name ... So, do you know of that program thing that Maxie shared w me 4 years ago, you input the dog's age/weight/repro status, and what he ate the last 48 hours (I think- it might have been 72) and it told you what you were missing? I will ask her too- but I am sure her brain let that info go as soon as she gave it to me... I should've kept it...


I’m sorry, but I don’t think I have ever seen that. It sounds good, depending on how thorough it is! The problem I always ran into with diet assessments was the different ways that ingredients can be listed vs the ways that the optimal amounts are calculated (dry matter percentage and other such nonsense). It is so much more complicated than it seems as if it should be!


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## Siandvm (Jun 22, 2016)

Yaichi's Mom said:


> Thank you for your comments and critique Siandvm
> 
> The second article is actually written by a colleague of our DVM.
> 
> ...


I’m sure Dr. Dobias is a fine person, but that does not make him an expert in this topic. Personal anecdotes do not scientific proof make. 

I did not watch the documentary, but I wish I had. 

The clip you linked would not load for me. I will try on my desktop when I am home. 

I could find no mention in the article you linked about freezing killing pathogens. It says that they were unable to culture something (don’t remember offhand which) from the frozen samples, but that the pathogen may have been altered by the freezing, rendering it unculturable, not necessarily non-pathogenic. Also, it must be noted, that pathogen patterns are different across countries. For example, British chickens are vaccinated against salmonella so that it is really not a problem in raw eggs there — eggs are not refrigerated in grocery stores or at home! Not so here! It may be the case that the raw diets in Finland have a lower pathogen count to start with than the ones available here. I did not see that they measured the pre-freezing food (as that is not how it is commercially available). So, unless one is importing Finnish frozen raw diets, there may not be a comparison to be made, unfortunately.


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

Siandvm said:


> I’m sure Dr. Dobias is a fine person, but that does not make him an expert in this topic. Personal anecdotes do not scientific proof make.


 Dr Peter Dobias. I cannot ascertain that he is an expert nutritionist, however he is an accredited DVM with many years of research and clinical expertise. 



> I did not watch the documentary, but I wish I had.


It truly was an excellent documentary series. I am hoping that they will re-release it again for free preview. If I ever find it again I will post it. 



> The clip you linked would not load for me. I will try on my desktop when I am home.


I hope you get it to load. It is an interesting watch and they are doing some unprecedented work/research IMHO. 



> I could find no mention in the article you linked about freezing killing pathogens. It says that they were unable to culture something (don’t remember offhand which) from the frozen samples, but that the pathogen may have been altered by the freezing, rendering it unculturable, not necessarily non-pathogenic. Also, it must be noted, that pathogen patterns are different across countries. For example, British chickens are vaccinated against salmonella so that it is really not a problem in raw eggs there — eggs are not refrigerated in grocery stores or at home! Not so here! It may be the case that the raw diets in Finland have a lower pathogen count to start with than the ones available here. I did not see that they measured the pre-freezing food (as that is not how it is commercially available). *So, unless one is importing Finnish frozen raw diets, there may not be a comparison to be made, unfortunately.*


Table 1 in that article shows the different countries that the samples for the study were taken. It includes North America, Europe, China, UK and New Zealand. 

Table 1: 
The prevalence of Campylobacter, Salmonella, and Yersinia enterocolitica in feces or rectal swabs 
of dogs and cats and in commercial raw meat-based diets (RMBDs)

_Raw Meat-Based Diets in Dogs and Cats (PDF Download Available)_. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318003675_Raw_Meat-Based_Diets_in_Dogs_and_Cats [accessed Feb 04 2018].


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## Siandvm (Jun 22, 2016)

Yaichi's Mom said:


> Dr Peter Dobias. I cannot ascertain that he is an expert nutritionist, however he is an accredited DVM with many years of research and clinical expertise.
> 
> It truly was an excellent documentary series. I am hoping that they will re-release it again for free preview. If I ever find it again I will post it.
> 
> ...



Even in Dr. Dobias’s own biography on his own website he makes no mention of any research experience, only clinical. As I am also an accredited veterinarian, he is no more qualified than I to make claims about nutritional expertise. 

I went back to the Finnish article and found the source of confusion. The table you reference is one they provide to show results of PREVIOUS (cited) studies re. Prevalence of those pathogens in dogs, cats, and raw diets. The study itself (wherein they mention the freezing) is only on Finnish products, using Finnish meats.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Siandvm, really appreciate your insights. I’m learning a lot from this thread. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

If you take swabs of human fecal samples you will find ecoli in 100% of the samples, why.. because it is a organism that lives in our gut. So to find it in dog samples isn't remarkable at all.


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

blondewithagolden said:


> I know there are several threads on this but not sure how to bump them so apologies if starting a new thread is a faux pas.
> 
> I welcomed home an adorably energetic little land shark over the holidays. His name is Remy and he's just darling (thank god too because he's a bit of terrorist sometimes!) I have only had him about a month and he is 4 1/2 months old. I have been feeding him the BARF raw diet 3x a day. Since starting him on the raw diet his puppy dandruff (or possibly ichthyosis, have not had him tested yet) has significantly decreased, his coat is much softer and shinier, and his energy level seems higher.
> 
> ...


I am quoting the original OP and their question with reason and the comment that a DVM would put "the fear of God" in a client/patient.

I have personally gone through several DVMs...all I am sure competent/graduated in their field with their POV, where something in my gut did not align and they did not want to consider my concerns/questions with what they recommended, nor did they really want to hear why I had the concerns that I di. 

I would never let my own physician or my DVM put the "fear of God" in me, as I have a personal responsibility to have choices, do research and decide what I feel is best for me, or for my 4 legged companions. That choice and risk is mine. 

The question of the best diet, is obviously a very polarized topic with those who are one side of the fence vs the other side of the fence and some in between and confused as what to do. 

What is not divisive, nor polarized is that we all want what is best for our beloved dogs to ensure that they have the best, most healthy and long life as possible. 

Obviously I am a supporter of a raw, species appropriate, complete and balanced diet.

Why?


after much resistance and skepticism, I have seen how a raw diet under veterinary recommendation and scrutiny has made a HUGE difference in my dog's health...and Brisby has had more than her fair share of health issues

no more hot spots
no more ear infections
maintaining weight ( which of course can be done with other diet)
great fur and skin even with swimming most days weather permitting
rapid recovery from ACL issues without surgery
other
 
We have a pack of GR's that we walk with regularly. One GR who is 9 years old, had a history of itchy, smelly, oily skin: limping, alleged arthritis and put on NSAIDs which masks, yet does not cure


. Since moving to a balanced raw diet, her skin has improved tremendously, she is no longer oily, smelly, itchy. Another GR was diagnosed with allergies....sneezing, hot spots, itchy, chewing...all gone once moved to similar diet....no more NSAIDs...no more limping or gait issues


All I can share is what I have personally witnessed with my dog, my friends dogs and others who have seen a huge benefit to this change in diet
All of the above said and NO I don't have any scientific studies to support what I have written above other than what I have tried to share and all I can suggest you do it this:


 don't believe anything you read or hear, even from me
do you own due diligence, read, research and decide what you glean from that what is best for your companion
do NOT completely rely on "science" and so called "studies" as there have been very few when it comes to pet nutrition, as these studies need to be funded and the processed pet food cartel has big bucks and huge influence in both media, actual studies run and veterinary education/curriculum ....and "science" is ever changing
never let your DVM try to "bully" you; have them respect your questions, concerns and if they don't, find another DVM
If you think and believe that feeding kibble, "good quality" or other is the best for your dogs and you feel that is best for your companions today or over a span of time, then by all means do so, with the best wishes for a long and healthy life for your dogs.

I would never go back to feeding kibble of any kind, "high quality" or other from what I have seen with my own dog and from others and from all I think I have read/learned since. ...and I did, for the first 2 years of her life (Orijen)

Best of luck to the OP with your decision and to all, for a healthy long life for all of our beloved companions.


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## Siandvm (Jun 22, 2016)

In general, YM, I agree with much of what you said. However, I have some comments and also questions to satisfy my personal curiosity. 

* why raw and not simply home-cooked? I’m genuinely curious as to what the rawness vs simply fresh and from known-sources is supposed to impart. 

* if you suggest doing due diligence, research, etc., there should be a caveat that not all sources are equal. Just because it agrees with your point of view does not make it right, and just because it disagrees does not make it wrong. Anybody can do what I did with the sources you cited earlier: assess the author(s) and their credentials, do they cite their own sources, how big was the study, was it published in a peer-reviewed journal, do they have anything to gain by convincing you of what they are saying (are they selling anything?), etc. 

*calling science “science” and studies “studies” helps no one and runs the risk of making one look like a fringe lunatic. Reputable journals always require disclosures of potential conflict of interest in studies (for example if it was funded by a company which might stand to gain from the results). Having it peer reviewed is the safeguard against such bias. This is the sort of thing which the reader is to assess in the process I reference above. If you are going to complain about studies which are funded by pet food companies, then please have the same disregard for information quite literally put out by companies trying to sell you something, like 2 of the articles you linked earlier, especially if they have no science or even “science” to back it up. 

*I agree that a patient or client should never be bullied, but there is a big difference between bullying and disagreeing on a scientific basis and trying to educate someone on what the scientific evidence shows. It certainly sounds as if you were not going to be happy until you found a veterinarian who agreed with your point of view. That, in and of itself should not be a bad thing — I am reminded of the stories we hear from people whose veterinarians are still recommending early spay/neuter and will not be swayed by or even consider the golden retriever study, limited though it may be. However, I am also reminded of “Octomom”. You remember her — she went from fertility doctor to fertility doctor until she found one who was willing to go against all the standards of practice and codes of ethics and transferred 12 embryos at once. Does that make her a well-informed, self-advocating patient and him an excellent doctor? I would wager not, especially as the doctor lost his medical license as a result!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Siandvm said:


> *I agree that a patient or client should never be bullied, but there is a big difference between bullying and disagreeing on a scientific basis and trying to educate someone on what the scientific evidence shows. It certainly sounds as if you were not going to be happy until you found a veterinarian who agreed with your point of view. That, in and of itself should not be a bad thing — I am reminded of the stories we hear from people whose veterinarians are still recommending early spay/neuter and will not be swayed by or even consider the golden retriever study, limited though it may be.


I hear often of people who believe their vet is bullying them... and sometimes they might be, but generally I imagine it is a case of a vet who can't communicate a piece of info without being interpreted as coming from a superior place. It's hard to communicate when education isn't equitable. The reality is, vets have more education than lay people do on veterinary medicine. And the other piece is that not all vets are gifted with the ability to be heard... 
And in my experience- veterinarians are not all wonderful people- people.... (nor are all cardiologists, or all accountants lol)
but that same person who isn't good w talking to the owner might be the most fabulous with diagnostics or observation... we cannot expect the people we entrust to all agree with us on everything. We have to value them for the role they have in our dogs' lives. And who cares if our vet doesn't agree w our feeding method? It's not as if the vet can force you to feed kibble. .. if there is a real visible difference in your dogs, be a good example that the vet thinks of when they think of their healthier patients. 
Can a lay person know more than their vet about a topic? Sure they can! No one has time to devote themselves to the study of one thing... that's where the Boarding has a place in valuing the opinion of an author. It's important when we learn about a topic we also learn about how things to do with that topic interact with other things. The GI system isn't isolated- it has bearing on other systems. I'm not personally anti- raw.. I fed raw for many, many years. My dogs thrived. The 'hole' in the raw feeding movement is the difficulty in balancing a raw diet- and (imo) the assumption that a good manufacturer of raw food is looking out for our dogs' health. Raw feeding is appealing from a be-cool standpoint, and from a care place absolutely but doing it well is difficult (though I suspect it is marginally easier with one than ten). Dogs can survive on less than, of course...but we want the best we can do for them. I am a fan of study and listening to the opposition... learning their position and understanding it educates the person who is a lifelong student and perhaps those who interact with them.


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## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

Today my dog ate: broccoli carrots minced beef an egg (raw) with the shell and some plain Quakers !









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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

Siandvm said:


> In general, YM, I agree with much of what you said. However, I have some comments and also questions to satisfy my personal curiosity.
> 
> * why raw and not simply home-cooked? I’m genuinely curious as to what the rawness vs simply fresh and from known-sources is supposed to impart.


Thank you for your comments and questions Siandvm. It seems that I certainly seem to be at a disadvantage here in this discussion as you are a trained professional DVM and I am not, but simply a dillegent ( I hope) pet parent attempting to do the best for me dog. I would be happy to satisfy your "personal curiosity"

Short version, I started Brisby on Orijen LB puppy then migrated to Orijen Regional, 6 Fish and one other in the rotation. During the time on kibble ( deemed high quality) she suffered from hot spots, ear infections, tore her ACL, her urinary incontinence began to manifest. We changed DVMs ( more about that below) to a holistic DVM who suggested a home cooked diet ( was anti raw unless it was HPP) so we tried that. Hilarly's blend was suggested, so I bought the book and the supplement from this DVM and did this diet for a while. It was cumbersome to make with horrible texture and Brisby did not like it. We then moved to total home cooked with supplements ( 4Cyte, Green Min, Soul Food, Omega 3) and did that for about a year. It was actually the suggestion of our homeopathic DVM who recommended a complete balanced raw diet for Brisby and I was very reluctant at first as I didn't like the idea of feeding my dog raw food, however if our DVM thought it may be better for Brisby, I would give it a try. I did a lot of reading about the canine ancestral diet, the differences in a dog's digestive tract ...way too much to write in a post here. We started a balanced raw diet under the guidance of our DVM and I was astounded at the difference it made in her health. Interestingly enough, 3 of our GR friends who were having health issues as I briefly described above, saw the difference in Brisby and decided to change to a raw diet and were amazed at the improvement in their dogs. 

Bottom line, it is my opinion and my DVMs ...and what I have seen from my experience that fresh, unprocessed raw food provided that it is complete and balanced is what nature intended for our dogs to eat. 

I would encourage all of you to watch "Pet Fooled", The Dog Cancer Survival Series and the links I have in that thread on the forum and this, if you have not seen it:








> * if you suggest doing due diligence, research, etc., there should be a caveat that not all sources are equal. Just because it agrees with your point of view does not make it right, and just because it disagrees does not make it wrong. Anybody can do what I did with the sources you cited earlier: assess the author(s) and their credentials, do they cite their own sources, how big was the study, was it published in a peer-reviewed journal, do they have anything to gain by convincing you of what they are saying (are they selling anything?), etc.
> 
> *calling science “science” and studies “studies” helps no one and runs the risk of making one look like a fringe lunatic. Reputable journals always require disclosures of potential conflict of interest in studies (for example if it was funded by a company which might stand to gain from the results). Having it peer reviewed is the safeguard against such bias. This is the sort of thing which the reader is to assess in the process I reference above. If you are going to complain about studies which are funded by pet food companies, then please have the same disregard for information quite literally put out by companies trying to sell you something, like 2 of the articles you linked earlier, especially if they have no science or even “science” to back it up.


Agreed, all sources are not equal, nor are all studies. One also must look at the duration of the studies, who they were funded by at to what motivational end. 

We don't have to look too far to remember that there have been human drugs that underwent studies and were approved, with severe consequence. ie thalidomide, celebrex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs

Unfortunately, as I am sure you know, there is little funding for animal studies outside of the pharmaceutical and pet food industry. I am sure that these studies are not done for pure altruistic reason. 

Typically those who are attempting to study the benefits/ disadvantages of raw diet are not doing this to sell raw food.

LOL....well thank you for the innuendo of being a "fringe lunatic" ...I guess that could be a flaming innuendo, however that said I will wear my "tin foil hat" proudly  

"Science" is an ever changing and evolving. Einstein's theories were once considered truth ( science) and now they are being questioned and dis-proven. Stephen Hawking has admitted that some of his earlier "science" was wrong. Drugs have gone through clinical trials/studies, have been approved and deemed safe, yet they have caused illness/death and then have been pulled from the market. 

The articles and information I post are for informational consideration purposes only....in other words, food for thought. I have never said that I believe them to be 100% + accurate, nor do I/have I ever implied that anyone here should do what I have chosen to do for my dog. Obviously I do align with most of the articles posted and that is my prerogative, as is yours to disagree or discount. 




> *I agree that a patient or client should never be bullied, but there is a big difference between bullying and disagreeing on a scientific basis and trying to educate someone on what the scientific evidence shows.* It certainly sounds as if you were not going to be happy until you found a veterinarian who agreed with your point of view. * That, in and of itself should not be a bad thing — I am reminded of the stories we hear from people whose veterinarians are still recommending early spay/neuter and will not be swayed by or even consider the golden retriever study, limited though it may be. However, I am also reminded of “Octomom”. You remember her — she went from fertility doctor to fertility doctor until she found one who was willing to go against all the standards of practice and codes of ethics and transferred 12 embryos at once. Does that make her a well-informed, self-advocating patient and him an excellent doctor? I would wager not, especially as the doctor lost his medical license as a result!


Oh my!! That is quite a statement and accusation when you don't know anything about me or my journey with Brisby. I would be interested to know what POV you are specifically referring to. 

For the record ( which is well documented here on the forum). My search to change DVMs began when Brisby began to manifest urinary incontinence. I won't re-write it all here:
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...ramural-ectopic-ureter-advice-pleasebris.html

PPA/Proin/Phenylpropanolamine was suggested as the modality of treatment after Stilbestrol would be required at a too high dosage to suppress the urinary leakage. I started to read up on this drug, it's side effects, the fact that it was withdrawn from the human market ( caused hemorrhagic stroke ) yet still approved in the veterinary realm. I also read about other pet parents who had lost their dogs to strokes, death, some dogs manifested hypertension, temperament changes etc., and decided that for those reasons I wanted to find an alternate way to manage Brisby's incontinence. Our journey is documented in the thread above. Our conventional allopathic DVM had no other solutions/treatment, so I went searching for something I felt would be medically safer for Brisby. 

I hope that the above satisfies "your personal curiosity" 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
My sincere apologies to the OP blondewithagolden for taking your original thread/question off track.

Best of luck to you in making the best diet decision you can for your pup.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Yaichi's Mom - please know that I also value your insight. That's what make this forum great. This thread has the potential to be very informative as more of us (myself included) venture into a more homeopathic approach to canine care; on a side note I'm doing this for personal health as well. There will always be what I consider a "natural" tension between the two approaches. For me, I like somewhere in the middle. I believe nutrition has tremendous impact on health and welcome those changes. I will also consider more "traditional/allopathic" approaches in certain instances. Every person's journey is different.

Bottom line, what I'm taking from this thread is to be informed (to the best of our ability). We all owe it to ourselves and our pets to be educated and there is so much information out there that can be quite confusing.

If we do make the switch to raw, we need to be aware of the unintended consequences - ie. calcium deficiencies, probiotics, using organ meats, etc.


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## Siandvm (Jun 22, 2016)

YM, thank you for taking the time to respond.


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

For those interested, I though I would show you what one of Brisby's dinners look like. ( complete, balanced, raw)

What you see in the photo is green beef tripe ( aka doggie crack) which she always eats first, a duck gizzard, ground raw mix ( today it's "breeders blend" however it could be any protein and proteins should be rotated if your dog can tolerate that ) raw egg with shell ( shell is buried under the meat, 2 tbps raw minced veggies/fruit ( broccoli, carrot, kale, spinach, beet, brussel sprout, blueberry, red sweet pepper...you can put anything you like in this except for too many root veggies), organic kefir, 1 clove garlic finely minced and about 6 tbsp bone broth. Supplements: 4Cyte ( green lipid mussel ), Green Min, Soul Food Omega 3

I rotate the proteins, however the rest of the diet is pretty much the same, with raw egg only given every other day. Sometimes she gets quail or duck eggs.


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

Vika the Golden ! said:


> Today my dog ate: broccoli carrots minced beef an egg (raw) with the shell and some plain Quakers !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is a lovely plate of food!! Kudos to you for taking the time, effort to make fresh food for your pup.

Just a couple of questions....what is a quaker?

I would just caution you, if you have not already done so, to make sure the diet you are feeding is complete and balanced.

Here is one example of what to look for, although, I am not quite sure about some of the ratios in this article, however it will get you closer to a balanced diet for your pup. It is always a good idea to run what you feed by your DVM who is either home cooked or raw friendly as I have, to ensure that you are meeting the nutritional needs...not with every meal, however over a 1 - 2 week span.

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/i...Dog-Food-Nutritional-Information_20568-1.html

I loved your photo...thanks so much for sharing!!


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

Here is some other food for thought relative to the "scare" of raw diets....and the topic of HPP and to cost of nutritional studies in the pet food industry. 

Part I of II:


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## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

Yaichi's Mom said:


> That is a lovely plate of food!! Kudos to you for taking the time, effort to make fresh food for your pup.
> 
> Just a couple of questions....what is a quaker?
> 
> ...


Oh I meant Oat !!! Though I don't use it every day ! Thanks for the video 

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## dlmrun2002 (Mar 4, 2011)

*raw food*



Yaichi's Mom said:


> That is a lovely plate of food!! Kudos to you for taking the time, effort to make fresh food for your pup.
> 
> Just a couple of questions....what is a quaker?
> 
> ...



Thanks for the post(s). Those dishes are what I hope I can feed my next dog. It does seem like a big task, but I am sure it is worth it for the health of the dog. 

dlm ny country


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

dlmrun2002 said:


> Thanks for the post(s). Those dishes are what I hope I can feed my next dog. It does seem like a big task, but I am sure it is worth it for the health of the dog.
> 
> dlm ny country


It looks a lot more complicated and labor intensive than it actually is dimrum. 

I kind of "cheat" as I have found a really good quality pre-made raw food that is federally inspected, locally sourced/made, uses human grade, hormone free, antibiotic free proteins: pure, blends and dinners at an affordable price. I also know the ratios of what's in the food, the nutritional analysis etc., so I don't have to guess or worry..

All I truly have to do is scoop out whatever protein I am feeding that day ( weighed on a scale) add the fruit/veggie blend, kefir, egg, supplements, bone broth and that's it. Yes, it takes more time that scooping out kibble, but not that much. Those that make their own raw or grind their raw food do a lot more more that I do. 

What takes the most time is food processing the veggies/fruits and packing them up in small Rubbermaid/other containers and freezing them. I also make bone broth in a slow cooker about once a month, divide it up in small containers and freeze...take both out as needed for the meals. 

Brisby also gets recreational raw for her to chew; chicken, turkey, duck necks, chicken feet, veal tail tips, dehydrated natural beef tendons etc, to satisfy both her need to chew and to keep her teeth clean. It sounds kind of gross, but dogs love this. 

I truly do believe the effort is worth it. I have seen it with my own eyes with Brisby and with other dogs whose health issues have either improved substantially or gone away altogether by a change to a complete, balanced raw diet.


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## dlmrun2002 (Mar 4, 2011)

That is good to hear. I always felt it would be overwhelming to put a raw meal together. I actually freeze my own vegetables and fruit from my garden. Maybe I could use frozen string beans and raspberries (all organic) to add to the meal. My heart Golden "Skye" loved picking raspberries with me so I named my jam after her.


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

dlmrun2002 said:


> That is good to hear. I always felt it would be overwhelming to put a raw meal together. I actually freeze my own vegetables and fruit from my garden. Maybe I could use frozen string beans and raspberries (all organic) to add to the meal. My heart Golden "Skye" loved picking raspberries with me so I named my jam after her.


Those are perfect additions dimrum...and organic to boot!!

Just do remember if you do this that dog's can't digest raw veggies (cellulose). You either need to lightly steam them, or chop them finely in a food processor to enable absorption of nutrients.

I love that you named your jam after Skye....I am sure she is smiling and honored. What a wonderful tribute!! <3

I am so sorry for your loss....I know how more than difficult that is....forever...


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## golfgal (Dec 31, 2013)

The canine nutritionist I consulted said she normally recommends waiting a bit on raw diet for puppies and older dogs their digestive system is still developing so cooked is easier on them. Books I highly recommend to educate yourself on diets to name a few as it costs less than allergy testing or if you have issues with your pets. 
Dr. Pitcairn, Natural Health
Dr. Khalsa - Natural Dog - Dr. Deva Khalsa - Holistic Veterinarian
http://petnutritionbysmart.blogspot.ca/ - can't remember book name but it's on her blog
Dr. Martin Goldstein - Natural Animal Healing ? name could be wrong. 

I use kibble as back up when I don't have food ready or haven't shopped recently but mostly home cooked or raw. Murphy drools for lentil dahl and squash and loves veggies so the more healthy things he eats, the better IMHO


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## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

Have been cooking for my dog for 7 days and have already seen a big difference! She won't scratch herself anymore and her stool are perfect ! It is totally worth it !

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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

golfgal said:


> The canine nutritionist I consulted said she normally recommends waiting a bit on raw diet for puppies and older dogs their digestive system is still developing so cooked is easier on them. Books I highly recommend to educate yourself on diets to name a few as it costs less than allergy testing or if you have issues with your pets.
> Dr. Pitcairn, Natural Health
> Dr. Khalsa - Natural Dog - Dr. Deva Khalsa - Holistic Veterinarian
> Fit for a Pet: The Truth About Pet Foods - can't remember book name but it's on her blog
> ...


LOL....Brisby loves dahl & channa too!! Must be the turmeric and other spices in the curry!!

Pitcairn's book Natural Health is a great reference. Our DVM is an instructor and mentor at his institute. 

I have had Dr Deva Khalsa's book which actually is titles "Natural Dog: A Holistic Guide for a Healthier Dog" on my wish list...thank you for reminding me of this. 

Thank you for the reminder and the suggestion....will check out Dr Martin Goldestein's book "The Nature of Natural Healing" too


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

Vika the Golden ! said:


> Have been cooking for my dog for 7 days and have already seen a big difference! She won't scratch herself anymore and her stool are perfect ! It is totally worth it !
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


I am so glad that you are seeing a positive difference in your girl!! 

Isn't it amazing the difference a fresh diet makes?!?!


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## golfgal (Dec 31, 2013)

The vet I tried and left was convinced that chicken kibble was more healthy than actually feeding chicken. Go figure. Most people don't eat a complete and balanced meal for every meal, so I'm not convinced dogs must for every meal. 

My theory is an educated dog owner should make decisions best for them rather than being in the kibble, raw or cooked camps or following vet advice blindly.


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## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

Even though I wake up an hour earlier to cook for my dog it is totally worth it 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## golfgal (Dec 31, 2013)

I'm way too lazy in the mornings for that. I make up a batch of food for several days for the mornings which changes weekly. Dinner is a dog version of what we're eating plus what they need.


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## jessny (Jan 21, 2018)

Thanks for this post. I'm new to this concept and find it overwhelming now that we are getting a dog. Our cat had to be switched to prescription food a few years ago after developing a sensitivity to the food she was eating, which was an eye opener in terms of the quality of the mass produced pet food. I feel like I need to do a lot of research before deciding what we will do for puppy food.


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