# When to neuter?



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Here is an article written by Rhonda Hovan on the subject.

http://www.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/2...her_and_when_to_neuter_a_golden_retreiver.pdf


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

It's going to depend on -

1. What you can handle. 

An intact dog who is not trained or responsibly contained CAN run amuck. There are a lot of people who let their intact dogs wander or leave them in the backyards or take other chances that put their dogs in physical danger and also permits them to develop behavioral issues that will be difficult or impossible to correct. Dogs who are left outside or permitted to wander are those who become breeders. 

2. What your breeder recommends.

Some breeders write it out in the contract when the owner must neuter. Some might have 12 months. Other require 24 months or they consider the contract broken and terms null. Meaning that if your dog develops joint problems, they will not honor any part of the contract concerning hip dysplasia, etc.

3. Your concerns about possible issues that may happen if dog is neutered prior to full maturity/growth.

This concerns appearance, structure, behavior, and health. 


**** 

My dog is intact and I can say with 100% certainty that he will never be bred or be permitted to breed. Dogs do not spontaneously spawn just because they are intact.


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## Bogart (Nov 14, 2009)

My Vet recomanded neutering at 9 months old because of the Tendense and Ligaments to fully develop (like ACLs) I will keep him intact at least for a year and then I'll see how he develops mentaly how he is around other dogs. For now he is 6.5 months old and doing very well. He is lifting his leg already (he started about a month ago) and he is a social little Dude. 
My older Golden got neutered at 9 months old I should have waited longer I think. For now he doesn't have any problems and I hope he never will have any. 
My Australian Cattle dog had to have TPLO surgery for a torn ACL they do recover but she was much easier to handle then a Golden since she was only 47 Lbs. 
So I'll try to give him all the oportunities I can to be healthy. He is goes steer crazy about female dogs in heat then yes he'll get neutered. 
But for now he is a mellow fellow and I haven't had any trouble yet.
I train at a rescue and my friends are all on me to neuter him but I let them talk it's not effecting his training and he is still young.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I dont neuter males. 

EARLY SPAY-NEUTER IN THE CANINE ATHLETE, by Chris Zink, DVM, PHd

http://www.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/2...her_and_when_to_neuter_a_golden_retreiver.pdf

This next one is harsh, but its true
http://www.iwclubofamerica.org/Education/SN Risks.pdf

IF you decide to neuter for your own reasons. I would wait till 2 years at minimum. 

http://www.rockycreeklabradors.com/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

""On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before maturity, increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer) by a factor of 3.8; this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6; this is a common cancer and
major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations"

I believe that the negatives that can come out of it far outweigh the positives. With proper training and socialization an intact dog should be able to get along with other intact dogs. I have never had a problem with my intact dogs. Also neutering dogs to stop or prevent humping, marking (inside or out), and most types of aggression. Once the dog has those behavoirs they have them. Training has to be done to correct them. Mine didnt start to mark until a year after he was neutered. First and last dog I will ever neuter.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Both of my beloved golden boys are neutered. Georgie is 9 1/2 years and Mick is 4 1/2 years. Don't regret for one second!!!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And seriously,Lincoln 16, your are not an expert and frankly I find you irritating......


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Also another study that proves neutered dogs life expectancy is shorter then non neutered dogs. 

Dont need to be an expert to read scientific studies Veterinarian or not

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...&sig=AHIEtbRHa3JFPu-L-Edp2BCBKS_1_0BgOg&pli=1

You find me irritating because you dont like the fact I am putting all this information out there for owners to make educated decisions rather then being bullied or lied to by their vet into doing something that may not be in their pets best interest. Just because your a veterinarian doesnt mean everyone should just bow down to you in grace because your always right....


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

Let's remember that this is and will always be one of those hot topics. So remember to keep it to the topic and not make it personal.


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## Zazoo (Jul 1, 2011)

I have a male and female living under the same roof.. I spayed and neutered both at 6 months of age.. I did not want any unexpected pregnancies to happen, especially with my Zane always trying to mount Madison still.. I know it is a dominance thing, and I tell him "No Dominating" I don't regret my decision..  I guess it's what you think would be best for your dog.. There is pro's and cons to everything..


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

marshab1 said:


> Let's remember that this is and will always be one of those hot topics. So remember to keep it to the topic and not make it personal.


It appears to already be personal.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Well, part of the reason I have ONLY neutered male dogs is that I had a parent who was "cheap" and hated to pay someone to neuter dogs(actually same went for female dogs). So when I was in college and found an unneutered male manchester terrier on the side of the road and brought him home... I developed a bias against male dogs... this dog could go for a one mile walk and then come home and mark on the dining room wall. He did this until he was about 12 or so years. Then he developed a prostate problem... and had to be neutered. Even at his advanced age, he was better in the house post neutering... However, it made me never want to have an intact male dog... Fortunately my 2 wonderful boy neutered goldens changed my mind on male goldens. And while they still find the unspayed girls fascinating, they do not mark and are exemplary in the house. I might add that the younger, Mick, did mark before he was neutered, which caused me to neuter him before I planned to. So what I do has nothing to do with what i was taught to do.... obviously, as my girls remain intact for a long time as I show and occasionally breed them... nothing personal in my beliefs.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

To answer the OP's question, I think(and I was not taught this) that it is better to wait to closer to one year. The pups i have bred that were neutered closer to 6 months appear to be rangier, etc. My 2 boys were closer to one year and are within the golden standard. Like you, for me, neutering was not an option...


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Any intact male I ever owned did NOT mark inside my home. Ever...in fact, Lincoln was neutered and he only started to mark outside 1 year after he was fixed. 

I had had a friends intact dog come over who marked inside my house on numerous occasions and it pissed me off. They were poorly trained and were allow to mark inside at the owners house because he was to lazy to take them outside. 

I dont rush to my nearest vet to neuter my males because they mark outside...as long as its done outside I could care less. Its not about being "cheap". I never kept my males intact because I was cheap, I had the money there to get them fixed. I chose not to because I didnt feel there was any reason to. Of course people who chose to keep their pets intact are chastised by every one as being "irresponsible" when in fact its "irresponsible" do neuter a dog JUST because someone says to without researching and learning the possible risk associated with it. 

You said "So what I do has nothing to do with what i was taught to do", but call people who do not follow your "expert" opinion irritating. Sorry, I dont bend over when a vet tells me something. I have been lied to by a few vets so fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I respect the fact that your a veterinarian but, your not perfect, I am not perfect, no one is perfect and I cannot stand when vets try to convince me they are perfect, know all and can never be wrong because they are a vet and that makes then the "expert" and anyone else below that is nothing.


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## Nomes (Nov 7, 2011)

I just got back from the new vet that we are going to. They said they recommend 6 months as well, and they sounded a little leery of doing it older, but hey, it's my dog right?! : it wasn't like they wouldn't do it...i'll have to talk to the actual vet when we bring him in for the first time. (we were just there to get a cat spayed)
Thanks for the opinions everyone!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Nomes, most of us were taught in vet school to neuter at six months or so. What those of us who breed Goldens have seen is that early neutering seems to contribute to the dogs being rangy..sex hormones are what close the growth plates... In my own particular line of dogs, the dogs neutered at six months definitely have a different "look" than the ones neutered later. Part of that includes length of leg. The one study that I read years ago that had any creedance with me was a retrospective study on early neutering of shelter dogs. One piece of info I garnered from that article was there was a direct correlation with an increase in hip dysplasia in dogs neutered at fifteen weeks or younger. My 9 1/2 year old boy as well as his 4 1/2 nephew both neutered after six months and before one year are completely hip sound. The older one is actually small for a male golden and the younger is in the middle of the standard.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> Nomes, most of us were taught in vet school to neuter at six months or so. What those of us who breed Goldens have seen is that early neutering seems to contribute to the dogs being rangy..sex hormones are what close the growth plates... In my own particular line of dogs, the dogs neutered at six months definitely have a different "look" than the ones neutered later. Part of that includes length of leg. The one study that I read years ago that had any creedance with me was a retrospective study on early neutering of shelter dogs. One piece of info I garnered from that article was there was a direct correlation with an increase in hip dysplasia in dogs neutered at fifteen weeks or younger. My 9 1/2 year old boy as well as his 4 1/2 nephew both neutered after six months and before one year are completely hip sound. The older one is actually small for a male golden and the younger is in the middle of the standard.


^ Seconds this. I do not think you will run into any general practice vet who will not recommend neutering at six months. 

The other thing I really wanted to point out... I've read the articles on how keeping dogs intact is prevents all kinds of conditions and issues, and I am not convinced there is enough proof to be making statements like that.

My vet believes dogs are born with HD and ED. 

Probably the only impact neutering early might have is these dogs grow bigger and heavier than they might otherwise have... and it puts stress on those iffy joints. 

I don't like people telling me my dog is going to develop cancer and spawn and turn aggressive and forget his housetraining... just because he's intact. Having owned intact dogs for a long time, I tend to think boys are very easy to deal with, very easy to train, very easy to handle whether they have "things" or not. 

Yes, they DO try mounting and they can be unpredictable as far as marking other places than home (my idiot actually lifted his leg at the vet, I was so mortified). Yes, they will breed if you let them... and yep, that will lead to more exasperating problems with them.

But they still are pretty easy to handle.

It's those female dogs that have all the problems... *winks at Sally's Mom*


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## Nomes (Nov 7, 2011)

thanks for your opinions! i just want to clarify that it's not an option to not neuter him...it's gonna happen...so everyone making a case for keeping him intact, i hear ya'! but it doesn't matter...my parents don't want an intact dog, and actually, i'd prefer him fixed just because i don't want him wandering away in search of a girl.
my question here is how _old_ to fix him at.
just so ya' know!


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I don't think this was mentioned but according to something I have read in the past even though any surgery is a very serious matter dogs that are neutered at the suggested "normal" age of 6 months heal faster and with less complications than those that are older. 

As a responsible owner unless there is an actual medical reason I do not believe it is necessary to neuter a male. Each of us needs to follow our breeders contract and then make the best informed decision for our dog our home.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Well, you got my opinion on that. I prefer older than six months...


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Megora said:


> My vet believes dogs are born with HD and ED.


I absolutely believe this. My ED girl was spayed AFTER her elbow surgery. And I've x-rayed quite a few dogs at the time of neuter (or before) that had bad or questionable hips.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

My friends large breed was x rayed at 6 months of age before he was neutered, his x rays were fine indicating no issues. He was neutered at 7 months and at 3 years old has hip issues. Under the theory they were born with it I would think they would of seen the bad hips at the 6 months x ray no?

Sounds a bit like Lincoln to. His hips were fine until a year after he was neutered..

Sure it could of been bad breeding im not denying that. But people...including vets seem to blame issues on bad breeding then neutering in fear people wont neuter their dogs. 

If your gunna neuter do it at 1.5 years the EARLIEST

I have been lied to by vets, which is why I research things before I ever allow a vet to perform them. Which is why I have formed the opinions I have


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

It's hard to believe the research you do on your own is better than the research at UPenn, Tufts, Cornell, and other vet schools. If the hips had laxity, they might suffer remodeling changes and look worse as time went by. Then again, I'm not a vet. I have to go with what our board certified orthopedist tells me above studies with unknown controls etc.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Lincoln_16 said:


> My friends large breed was x rayed at 6 months of age before he was neutered. He was neutered at 7 months and at 3 years old has hip issues. Under the theory they were born with it I would think they would of seen the bad hips at the 6 months x ray no?


No... 

First because your vets are going to be looking at those hips and taking best guesses as to how bad the hips are. They aren't grading the hips.

Second... there is a reason why people shouldn't breed on prelims. Hips that look good at 8 months might develop changes as the dog grows and matures. 

My golden with elbow dysplasia was perfectly fine until he was 7 months. It was at that point where he became severely crippled. He had dysplasia in both elbows, btw. This dog was intact all his life.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Megora and LJilly you couldn't have said it better...


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Lucky wasn't neutered til he was 10 and developed " stud tail". He was never used as a stud. Other than my yorkies he did not really car one away or the other about other dogs. He was fine with meeting others but did not care. He never took off/ wandered. My one neighbor did not realize we had himtil he was 7 or 8. He had his own harum of female yorkies so why leave?

The rescue, Buddy, 2.5 years old needs to be neutered. He humps and attempts to mark. He also has behavior problems that may be worsened since he is intact. He is a runner. He came from a household with 2 other intact males. The yorkies are spayed. I don't want to chance if he gets away him finding trouble.


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## Nomes (Nov 7, 2011)

wow! thanks so much everyone!
Ljilly, some of the research i've done has been taken from studies done from colleges, universities, vets...so it sounds like there might be mixed opinions on the subject.
I'll try for 1 year at least!  thanks so much everyone!


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

The hips were graded. They werent breeding off them dog they just liked to know what the dogs hip were graded at. 

I read scientific studies. I dont care if they were done by a specialist or not. I also use common sense. It makes perfect sense as to why a neutered dog is more at risk for hypothyroidism then an intact dog. It also makes sense as to why an intact dog is more prone to hyperthyroidism as oppose to one thats neutered. Vets try to convince people that the ONLY role hormones have is for reproduction when that is simply not true. 

Hormones control more then just reproduction, when really they control growth, glands, skin etc. If neutering and spaying were such good for dogs for reasons other then population control they would be dont on humans. They will not perform a hysterectomy on a female human unless medically needed. That female will then need hormone replacements the rest of her life. I am sure with humans removing and organ prevent things that can happen even at a low percentile. 

Its like saying, oh, well lets amputate his arms to prevent bone cancer in that area, or lets remove her breasts to prevent breast cancer. Its the exact same concept. Im willing to bet neutering human men will prevent "sex drive" and the urge to need to have sex. People view intact dogs as sex crazed maniacs when thats not true. 

What ever happened to effective training methods, did it get flushed down the toilet with common sense? 

If we remove organs to prevent diseases we should just kill every thing off. If people are so concerned that they cannot control an intact dog then perhaps they should either A) Not own a dog because neutering for convenience is...IMO wrong or B) Get a vasectomy done on the male.


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## Nomes (Nov 7, 2011)

Lincoln16, i totally agree on the misconceptions of intact male dogs! everybody things they'll be roaming around, marking in the house, being aggressive and biting, all that stuff...but if you actually train them to stick around, housetrain them, and teach them that biting is not ok, they're really not all that harder to train! I know a family that breeds goldens and i adore their intact guys! never known a sweeter dog than their 14 year old who is like the most perfectly mannered dog EVER!  so, yeah, intact dogs can be awesome! they just need to be trained and handled right!


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"Vets try to convince people that the ONLY role hormones have is for reproduction when that is simply not true"

Not all vets do the above. And I really haven't ever seen any of "our forum vets" do/say this. 

Lincoln16 you are still fairly new to the forum (my opinion) you have given great links, I can see you are passionate on the subject  You are right that some vets do push for the traditional time for castration usually because they have been taught it in vet school (over population in dogs) but the vets here just want to give a balanced opinion on the subject. 

But, after all the links, opinions by vets and dog owners each owner needs to make the decision that best fits their family and life.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I understand that . I just cannot stand being called irritating when I am posting links for owners to read and make a decision for themselves. 

My theory is, my dogs do not contribute to the over population so why give me the " you should neuter to control the over population" speech when I want to keep my dogs intact when my dogs never bred to contribute to it? 

The people like you, me and the others who have intact dogs who never breed can neuter till the cows come home, there will always be the over population issue until the people who do contribute fix their pets. 

I cannot stand going into a vets office (I am not saying the vet on this forum) but some vets expect me to listen to them and let them make decisions for MY pet JUST because they are a vet. Its like they want a God status or something. The same goes on with human Doctors to


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I have been very lucky in vets. My first vet (semi retired) was/is absolutely wonderful. Not only was he great with the animals he was also a great people person also. 
Later in the same practice I ran into a vet that just didn't fit well with me. I moved on to another vet in the same practice. She is also wonderful. She listens to all my concerns and gives solid advice. My dogs have loved her immensely. 

I think we ourselves cause part of the problem by expecting a vet to be good for us/and our pets just because they are a vet and stay in an unsatisfactory situation way to long. We do it with our human doctors and even priests or pastors. 

I hope going forward you end up with a vet you can trust and speak openly to that will give quality care for your guy and treat you with respect.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Well, I for one respect the hell out of doctors and vets. Maybe not all of them are perfect and righteous, but most of them are doing what they think is best for their patient based off of the _years _of education they've received. If it weren't for vets, Flora would probably be gimping around on 3 legs - that is, if she hadn't already died from kidney failure due to a UTI gone crazy or god knows what else.

To the OP: I'd neuter when you feel comfortable. Read the literature, consider both sides, and then make a decision that you and your family are comfortable with. You can't go wrong that way.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I listen to vets for stuff like UTI's etc. But when it comes to nutrition and neutering I generally have my own opinions

Lincolns on antibiotics, I thought it was a little excessive to be honest but then I did some research on it and agreed with the vets decision


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Just for the record here, the OP wanted to know the best age to neuter...not IF he should neuter or not....that's the topic... Not how awful veterinarians are, not the benefits of intact males, etc. The OP is neutering the dog regardless. This is really not a thread for anyone's bandstand unless you have an opinion on the best age to neuter.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Okay then

The best age to neuter IMO is...Never

For the OP since they are neutering anyway I say- 2 and thats what most studies I have read suggest as well


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## Nomes (Nov 7, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> Just for the record here, the OP wanted to know the best age to neuter...not IF he should neuter or not....that's the topic... Not how awful veterinarians are, not the benefits of intact males, etc. The OP is neutering the dog regardless. This is really not a thread for anyone's bandstand unless you have an opinion on the best age to neuter.


thanks sally!


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> So when I was in college and found an unneutered male manchester terrier on the side of the road and brought him home... I developed a bias against male dogs... this dog could go for a one mile walk and then come home and mark on the dining room wall. He did this until he was about 12 or so years.


On the other hand, my intact male dog hasn't urinated in my apartment since he was 11 weeks old (3 weeks after I got him and started house training). He'd sometimes have house training issues when we'd go visit some of my relatives thereafter (Especially if I left him there in their care while running errands or something), but I'd say even that stopped by the time he was six months old at most, probably 2 months before that. All well before anything could be considered marking.

He does seem to take pride in marking a bunch of things on our walks, but I don't really understand that to be a problem. So he likes to urinate on trees and polls and bushes instead of grass and dirt. As long as he's doing it outside in nature and not inside or on the sidewalk or in the street, if it makes him happy, more power to him. He sometimes does a little strut afterwards as if pleased to have marked more territory. It's kind of endearing. 

I think there's probably some room for adjusting to individual dogs and how they handle things, though. I have a strong bias against neutering for a whole lot of reasons, _but_ if I were dealing with a situation like the one in the post I quoted, I'd probably get that dog neutered. I'm not an absolutist about it. If there were a specific reason that a dog in my care would really benefit from neutering- like persistently marking inside the home while otherwise house trained- I'd consider adjusting my general stance to the circumstances.

But I was very pleased that I was able to keep my dog intact. I can remember it really upsetting me when my parents neutered by childhood pet (against my wishes), and how sad he seemed after it was done. I didn't want to be responsible for doing that to another dog if I could avoid it. Sometimes there are circumstances where it makes sense, and I'd probably do it if those circumstances arose with a dog I was raising, but as a general thing I think I'd try to avoid it and keep the dog intact if I could and not neuter just because the vet thinks it is the thing to do or because of societal pressure.


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