# Is English Creme always a red flag?



## Kk168002 (Nov 9, 2012)

Hi all, 
My husband and I are meeting with a breeder in Uhrichsville, Ohio this Saturday to meet some puppies, but I just read on here that I should avoid websites with the label "English Cremes." I was curious if these dogs are still a bad choice if we are just looking for a lovable addition to our family, no pedigree required. I'm specifically curious because we have a cat who I love dearly and I wasn't sure if places that aren't reputable cause temperament problems or health issues. I just want a nice easy going puppy that can be a cat's companion, odd as that sounds. . The website is superiorgoldenretrievers.com and they have 5 thirteen wk. old puppies from one litter and 2 from another marked down in price because they're moving. I really don't want to support a bad breeder as I was hesitant to go the breeder route with so many dogs that need rescue, but my husband is set on a puppy, so any advice would be great. This is my first time as a dog owner since I was 10, so thanks for any advice you have to share!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I am guessing that the parents do not have OFA hip, elbow, heart, or eye clearances. If that is the case, I would move on...


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

You can do much better! Take a look at the whole section about choosing a good breeder; it's very educational and you'll have a much better idea of what to look for in a healthy, sound puppy.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

There is absolutely nothing wrong in wanting a puppy; however, I would make sure you're not supporting a BYB who despite their "love" for their dogs is not doing the breed any good through their indiscriminate breeding practices. The website makes no mention of clearances and with no registered names of the dogs being bred, I'm unable to verify if the bare minimum clearances are in place (OFA hips & elbows, heart cleared by cardiologist and annual eye exams - CERF)--you want to see complete clearances throughout the pedigree. Don't believe any hype that "cremes" are healthier and/or the breeder has never had an issue with their dogs so no need to complete the clearances. Just looking at the website and the fact that they have 14 pups from 3 separate litters not sold--it looks like someone cashing in on the fad for light colored GRs. I'm surprised that their own stud is the best match for all three bitches. 

And yes, the usage of the term "English Creme" is a red flag. Do the dogs actually hail from England?

I would pass on this litter and for the matter skip the trip on Saturday--if you go, there will be no way to walk away from the pups. Spend some time reading the stickies on how to select a reputable breeder in this section of the forum.


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## Mattiaci (Aug 26, 2008)

That kennel you listed, breeds goldendoodles.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...7120414.-2207520000.1352442375&type=3&theater

Florence


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## elly (Nov 21, 2010)

I have merged the duplicate thread by the same op of this with this one to avoid duplicate postings etc. Thank you.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

I would have grave concerns about getting a puppy from this breeder. I found this on another of their websites


Welcome to All About Puppys We would like to welcome you to All About Puppys We realize that finding that perfect family pet can be a hard decision so please let us help you along the way. Please enjoy your All About Puppys shopping experience Who Are We Mike and Alice Moreland have been raising dogs for over 20 years. We believe in raising dogs for loving families like yours. We are located in beautiful Uhrichsville, Ohio. For purchasing details please click on our link. Our Breeds We specialize in Standard Poodles, Labradoodles, English Cream Golden Retrievers, and Goldendoodles. At times we may showcase a different breed that we are selling for a friend so stay in touch for details Most of our puppies are sold with limited AKC or CKC registration for pet homes with pet pricing. If you are wanting full registration with breeding rights please contact us so we may talk. Mike Alice Moreland Owners Uhrichsville,Ohio 44683 home cell This is our beautiful Truffles she is now retired so you might find her laying any where around the house (when you click on the link to AllAboutPuppies, the account has been suspended).

Please read the section about choosing a good breeder.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Let me put it this way: I have yet to see somebody who marketed their dogs as "English Creme" who was anywhere near the definition of "reputable" as set out by the Golden Retriever Club of America.

When I see somebody who calls their dogs "English Creme" and really does everything else right, I will post the thread on GRF myself because I think the membership would find it newsworthy.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Welcome. I am so glad that you are seeking to be responsible in your puppy search. What you have read on this forum is true. It is best not to support breeders who use English Creme labels. The fact that she has 13 week old puppies is also a red flag as well as her trying to get rid of them since she is moving. It would be better to search elsewhere.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Here are just a few of the many solid breeders in Ohio. There are lots of nice kennels in the midwest. Even if they don't have puppies, networking is a great way to come up with a perfect family member. 


Wylwind Goldens
Ruth Wylie
Delaware, OH USA 
[email protected]
Wylwind Home Page 
740-881-5317



Gideon Golden Retrievers
Vicki White
Atwater, OH USA 44102 
[email protected]
gideongoldens.com 
(home) 330-947-2425 (cell) 330-819-5568

Lakesyde Goldens
Julie & Cortney Corral
Wellington, OH USA 
[email protected]
lakesyde.com 
440 647-1020

GI-KI Goldens
Jan Whitaker
Cincinnati, OH USA 45248 
[email protected]
GI-KI Golden Retrievers 
513-598-5119

Shilo Goldens

Jennifer Krawsczyn
Pomeroy, OH USA 45769 
[email protected]
Shilo Golden Retrievers 
740-985-3975
Spicewood Golden Retrievers

Carolyn Durway
Akron, OH USA 44313 
[email protected]
(330) 836-8564


Anthem Golden Retrievers
Donna & Paul Ernst
Newbury, OH USA 44065 
[email protected]
ANTHEM Kennel - Our Story 
440-564-9222


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Also try Beckie at Gangway Goldens & Donna @ Hytree Goldens. 

I'd steer clear of the breeder you were to meet Saturday!!! 


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Also Denise Werner (tophatgoldens.com) and Carol Nolte (crarae.com) are in the Cincinnati area, both reputable breeders who have a lot of English influence in their pedigrees.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I'm specifically curious because we have a cat who I love dearly and I wasn't sure if places that aren't reputable cause temperament problems or health issues. I just want a nice easy going puppy that can be a cat's companion, odd as that sounds.


Okay... I'm not touching the English Creme as everyone else has that handled, but be aware that dogs and cats are not always bff's, especially if the cat hasn't been raised with dogs. 

If you are planning to bring a companion home for your cat, I suggest another cat. We are cat people in addition to dog people, and it's a fact of life that the cat's unique temperament as well as the first few months of his life does affect how he sees dogs and other animals. Some cats can be absolutely happy being the only animal in your life, especially as they can be fairly territorial. 

Our cat was probably born in a home with dogs and spent his first 3 months there before his previous owners abandoned him at the barn I board at. I would not have brought him home had I not already seen he was very good with dogs. 

Any other cats on our property or in our home drives him to start spraying inside and outside the house - this despite him being neutered very early. 

Our previous cat barely tolerated dogs, as he was a teenager when we brought our first dog home. He kept those dogs in line with an iron claw and much growling. 

My oldest sister's cat is the same way to a lesser extent. He was probably in a good home before he went stray and was rescued. He likes other cats, but dogs not so much. 

My baby sister's new cat - is fearful of other cats and dogs as she (apartment cat that had been abandoned in the parking lot when the previous owners left) had never been positively exposed to either. She's happiest with just people around but will vanish if any other four legged creatures are in sight.

So in a nutshell - do not approach this with the idea of bringing home a companion for your cat.  

As well as puppies being easygoing - they are not. They are only easygoing that first week, and then they get moving. All of the breeders mentioned above will be sure to warn you. Remember that goldens are a sporting breed in addition to being a companion breed. This means that until training and old age set in, these dogs are "busy" and active. And rambunctious.

If you owned your cat when he was young and got to see him doing monkey tail zoomies around the house, climbing the curtains, jumping on the furniture, lunging at you to randomly mouth and claw your legs... golden retrievers are a lot like that. But bigger and heavier.


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## Kk168002 (Nov 9, 2012)

Thank you for all the input and especially the list of reputable breeders! It's a much more daunting task finding a puppy than I expected, but it will be worth it to find a little buddy I think we will not make the trip so we don't give in to the cuteness when we get there. So, the search continues. This is a great forum, thanks!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Kk168002 said:


> Thank you for all the input and especially the list of reputable breeders! It's a much more daunting task finding a puppy than I expected, but it will be worth it to find a little buddy I think we will not make the trip so we don't give in to the cuteness when we get there. So, the search continues. This is a great forum, thanks!


Thank you for listening. Many new members come here asking very similar questions, and when they get the answers they did not want to hear they take it out on the forum.

As for cats and dogs, they are like people, sometimes they like certain ones, sometimes they don't.

I have two cats and two goldens. One cat hates both goldens, when I first got her, I had two GSD's and a Great Pyrenees. She liked one of the GSD's and the Great Pyrenees, but now hates both goldens that came into the house as puppies.

I have another cat that loves one of the goldens ( they are good friends ) and hates the other. Interestingly, she came into the house as a kitten about the same time the golden she hates came into the house as a puppy. You just never know.


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## Kk168002 (Nov 9, 2012)

Megora: Our cat has had some month long visits with my husband's family dogs before, so he is not completely new to dogs. They have a Bernese Mountain Dog that our cat gets along great with and they had a golden retriever, who sadly just passed away that kept him more on edge. Berners are lazy bums and their dog goes nose to nose with deer sometimes, a big lover. Their golden retriever had not ever been around a cat though, but still she never did more than chase which I think we would work on training the puppy not to do first thing. Our cat is just like the kittens you described, haha, sprinting up and down the stairs at lightning speed and playing hide and go seek with us. Which includes hiding behind things and then leaping out to scare us like we do to him He's 4 though. He's a LOT like a puppy and very territorial with cats so we're hoping it works out ok. He seems to respect animals we bring in the house, but growls at animals outside. Since my husband's childhood golden retriever passed he really wants another golden to commemorate her. We tried to get the Berner when his family got a new puppy, but they won't let us have her. We're going to try to find the most submissive puppy we can so it will accept our cat as the pack leader he is any other hints are appreciated. I think as long as our cat knows he's my number one, he'll be ok and as long as the dog isn't also dominant.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Kk168002 said:


> We're going to try to find the most submissive puppy we can so it will accept our cat as the pack leader he is any other hints are appreciated.


Be very careful not to mistake fearful for submissive. A fearful pup will be many times the work of a more confident pup in regards to socialization and training! Rely heavily on your breeder to pick the right pup for your situation.

Tips for dogs and cats together: 

Baby gates will be your friend. Cats think nothing of jumping over them, but dogs trained them at a young age will rarely challenge them. The gates will keep the dog out of the litter box and give the cat a space to get away from the dog. You can feed the cat behind the gate or maybe on a high counter that the dog won't be able to reach when full grown (over estimate what the dog will be able to reach by about double!). Make changes now that the cat is used to them before the puppy comes home. You don't want to do anything to change a litter box situation when the cat is under stress.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

One of the questions you can ask while breeder shopping is if the puppies have been socialized with cats. That would be a big plus.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

When we brought our puppy home, our cat would hide, and not eat for days. It took about 2 weeks before she would stay in the same room with the puppy for more than a few seconds. Now, the cat still does not like Bella, who would like nothing more than to be friends with the cat. 


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My two cats hated other cats, but always liked the dogs. As suggested, we used gates and taught the pups not to chase the cats. When one of my cats died, her son, Runtman would curl up on Laney's bed with her. I am allergic so no longer own cats, but all of mine except the pup, Gabby, treat the hospital cat with respect. Actually, all Basil has to do is see the cat and she pees herself...she was raised with cats before she came back to me...


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## Kk168002 (Nov 9, 2012)

Well, good news, I talked to my husband today and he is more than happy to find a reputable breeder and had concerns of his own about the one we were going to. I really appreciate the feedback and I think it will be a good decision in the way of our cat too. With a breeder we can ask them for a submissive puppy and go visit when they're little and take blankets home that smell like the puppy for our cat to get used to and vise versa. I think our cat will be ok as long as we train the puppy as soon as possible. He's a pretty tough cat and although he occasionally hides from loud groups of people(until he can't handle missing the fun and reemerges) he's more of a fighter than a hider. He used to sprint across our kitchen and whap my husband's family dog across the nose and she's 130 lbs. She being the sweetheart she is started holding her head up really high when she saw our cat running so he couldn't reach her. we'll also put up baby gates so there are safe places for him, we did that with my husband's dogs visiting and it worked well. But I do think that a breeder who knows what they're doing will help our cause a lot.


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## Kk168002 (Nov 9, 2012)

And we can find a breeder that socialized with cats making our job much easier thanks again


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

You've talked about getting a "submissive puppy" on the theory that this will help the pup and cat get along better. I don't think that's right, though. I think you should be looking for a pup with a bright, cheerful temperament.

I've had cats and dogs (Goldens and others) together for years. At the moment I have two dogs and two cats, and I'm adding another Golden puppy to the mix soon. What I have found is that a Golden puppy raised with cats will bond with the cat and get along fine. You don't need a submissive pup. In fact, I think you're just asking for problems with a submissive puppy. Now, if you mean a "calm" puppy, that might be different. But still, I think a bright and happy typical Golden will suit you just fine.

I had a Golden puppy that was raised with a bunny. They even slept together (which the bunny definitely did NOT enjoy, but the puppy insisted upon, so quickly bonded to the bunny did the pup become). That puppy grew up adoring bunnies.

Your pup will bond with whoever/whatever is in your house. Even if you get a pup that naturally wants to chase cats (i.e., strong prey drive), it will be different with _your_ cat, because your cat isn't a cat, it's a member of the pack. That's the way dogs think. They are very specific, and your cat will be a family member, not a cat. Your biggest problem will be your cat, not the puppy. The puppy will adapt, and growing up with a cat will just be "normal" to the puppy. So, please consider getting a puppy with a classic Golden temperament, and avoid any shy/submissive/fearful/overly calm puppies.

My opinion, for what it's worth. I've had cats and dogs together for a very long time, and introduced various kittens and puppies to adults of the other species. As I type this, I have a cat and a terrier cuddled up together on my lap. 



















Of course, every puppy loves to play and has to learn boundaries. Whatever puppy you get will want to play with your cat, eventually, and your cat will set the boundaries with an occasional swat across the nose. Puppies are generally pretty good about getting those boundaries, as they naturally learn to moderate their bite and play behavior. Our cats will occasionally play with our terrier mix, but not the Golden (though the cats are constantly rubbing up against and cuddling with the Golden), and the Golden respects that pecking order.


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## Gib18211 (Mar 13, 2013)

*New Puppy great idea/ But what breeder ?*

My family and I visited one of those English Creme Golden Retriever - Goldens of the Michigan Vineyards breeders yesterday. I was nervous going in due to the fact that the area wasnt all that nice. Right next door to a trailer park. Not that i have anything against 
folks that live in trailer parks. Anyways we saw the pups and of coarse we fell
in love with a little girl pup. We asked this so called breeder for customer references several times. She will not give us one. I know bad sign right.
Her name if Heather Elwell /Golden's of the Michigan Vineyards or English Creme Golden Retriever - Goldens of the Michigan Vineyards

Is anyone familiar with this breeder and should we stay away?

Thanks

Gib Rist


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I suspect you already know the answer to your question.... listen to your gut... If you were buying a car from a car dealer and he wasnt nice and refused to give you any references...would you buy the car?

I KNOW puppies are not cars....they are far more important and valuable than a car.

*Trust me*, you will fall just as deeply in love with a beautiful fluffy puppy from a reputable breeder - and you will know you did your part in ending uneducated back yard breeders...


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Gib18211 said:


> My family and I visited one of those English Creme Golden Retriever - Goldens of the Michigan Vineyards breeders yesterday. I was nervous going in due to the fact that the area wasnt all that nice. Right next door to a trailer park. Not that i have anything against
> folks that live in trailer parks. Anyways we saw the pups and of coarse we fell
> in love with a little girl pup. We asked this so called breeder for customer references several times. She will not give us one. I know bad sign right.
> Her name if Heather Elwell /Golden's of the Michigan Vineyards or English Creme Golden Retriever - Goldens of the Michigan Vineyards
> ...


After looking at thier website, I would look elsewhere.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

I was never aware English creams were a red flag, so people with ultra light goldens that are reputable just call them regular?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

English cream is a red flag because the dog is being marketed for color. You can actually get very light Goldens who have no foreign lines in their pedigrees. And the English style golden can be all of the golden colors... Not just light.

As far as the website. They say their dogs are Ch lines. I do not interpret those pedigrees as Ch lines...


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Tuco said:


> I was never aware English creams were a red flag, so people with ultra light goldens that are reputable just call them regular?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


To me it's the cream/Creme part that is the flag. There are dedicated breeders in the us who prefer to breed to the UK standard. I have no problem when people are doing so and proudly promoting "English Style" or though it is technically incorrect "English type". I also don't care what anyone's color preference is and we all have one. It is when the focus is color that is the issue. I have never seen a breeding program where one trait, especially color is the focus actually produce sound dogs that consistantly meet the standard. When you focus on one thing you loose sight of the whole. Personally, when I hear English Cream I also hear cha ching in my head becuase the term is widely used by "greeders".


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

LJack said:


> To me it's the cream/Creme part that is the flag. There are dedicated breeders in the us who prefer to breed to the UK standard. I have no problem when people are doing so and proudly promoting "English Style" or though it is technically incorrect "English type". I also don't care what anyone's color preference is and we all have one. It is when the focus is color that is the issue. I have never seen a breeding program where one trait, especially color is the focus actually produce sound dogs that consistantly meet the standard. When you focus on one thing you loose sight of the whole. Personally, when I hear English Cream I also hear cha ching in my head becuase the term is widely used by "greeders".


Bang on. I have light dogs, and use UK/Euro lines a part of my breeding because I like what it brings to the equation in terms of front structure and head character, and some of my dogs are on the pale end of the spectrum (although my most mid-gold boy has the most overseas lines in his pedigree!), but you will not see the creme/platinum/polar bear, etc etc crap anywhere on my site. I breed GOLDEN RETRIEVERS.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I don't have a problem when the word is used to describe a light dog, particularly one bred to a standard in which it was an allowed color. Like "Oh, that one is champagne-colored, this one is dark gold, that one over there is cream." It's the use of the term as if it denotes a subtype of Golden or to indicate that the color is too high a priority for a breeder or breeding.

One breeder I know cringes when somebody calls one of her darker dogs "red" because to her, a truly red dog would be out of standard. She asked me to say "dark gold," and I do.


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