# Refuses to heel when she sees other dogs



## z&mom (Oct 7, 2006)

Z gets two walks a day, once in the morning and once in the evening. Morning walk is fine as most days we will be out earlier than most people so there aren't any dogs around during our walks. HOWEVER, in the evening there are many dog owners walking their dogs right about the same time. This makes it so difficult for us because whenever Z sees another dog, she would first attempt to charge towards the other dogs, when she is unsuccessful (because I would be grabbing onto the leash tightly), she would plant her butt on the ground eyes on the dog, totally ignoring my "heel" command. I have tried:
(1) luring her with her favorite treats -- she ignored the treats
(2) tapping lightly on her head to get her attention -- she ignored me
(3) tugging the leash lightly and calling out to her -- she ignored me
(4) walking a few feet away from her and calling out to her in a highpitch excited voice -- she ignored me
(5) walking in front of her, telling her to "look" at me and heel -- she quickly looked up at me and then back to ignoring me 
(5) sharp tug on the leash, and said the "heel" command and move ahead almost dragging her along -- she reeled back (threw her head backwards), and stared at me, still refusing to move.

These days we have to get out of the house earlier so that we would avoid the peak hour in the evening. But this evening she did the same thing (blew me off) when I told her to heel as we were getting ready to leave the park to head on back home. She laid down and rolled over, refusing to sit up.

How do I let her know that I mean business? How do I stop her from blowing me off?


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

Hmmmm.....those are all the things I would have tried. Here's a thought though... It sounds to me like she is very focused on the other dogs. Is there a way to maybe keep her from getting to that point. As in maybe a leash snap (or even a Cesar Milan "chssst!") when you see her start to see the other dog. The idea here is to not let her get focused on the other dogs to begin with...and keep her focus on you. Just a thought.


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## z&mom (Oct 7, 2006)

Carsonsdaddy said:


> Hmmmm.....those are all the things I would have tried. Here's a thought though... It sounds to me like she is very focused on the other dogs. Is there a way to maybe keep her from getting to that point. As in maybe a leash snap (or even a Cesar Milan "chssst!") when you see her start to see the other dog. The idea here is to not let her get focused on the other dogs to begin with...and keep her focus on you. Just a thought.


You are right to point out that she is vey focused on the other dogs. But I don't know how to get her not to since she would walk out of the apartment building all ready and alert, looking at that particular direction where she knows the other dogs would gather every evening. She could spot them from a distance, and she locks her eyes on them from that instance. I have tried walking her in the opposite direction, but she would struggle and turn her head back where other dogs are. And these dogs are gathered at the park right across my apartment building every evening. I have been taking her out earlier to avoid them, but still she blows me off each time I try to get her to leave the park after she has played with her pack of friends.


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

Hmmm....I'm not sure.....I've PM'd Stephanie (FlyingQuizini) about it.....I bet she'll be able to give you some ideas.


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## Charlie06 (Feb 10, 2007)

There are some dogs that Charlie will freak out over when we're walking, and then there are others that he'll just ignore.....it's very strange.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Stephanie and ACC can give you good advice. 

I find myself a step ahead of my two and I beginning telling them what I expect of them before they pass another dog. I'm not sure they would pass so well with ALL dogs (they did train for the CGC certs for just this) as they do the little yapper up the street who runs back and forth as we pass, but they do quite well. I've been walking them both on lead together, so if they decided to bolt they far outweigh me at over 140 pounds.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I would add a Gentle Leader.

I would also keep in mind that, if she's telling you that right now, other dogs are so distracting that food, leash pops, toys, etc. can't help reorient her focus, then she needs to be farther away from the other dogs. Find a distance where she CAN do it so that you can reward the behavior you want.

If she's going lock and load on other dogs when they are 20 feet away, then you need to get her 25 feet away. She'll still know they're there, but might be able to focus on you, so you stand a chance at teaching her you can be more fun even around other dogs. 

Training around distractions is like the Olympics of Dog Training. It's hard! Try and stay at a level where everyone can have success.

Oh - and I'd switch to feeding her her meals exclusively from hand while on a walk. Might skip a meal or two in the beginning due to her distraction level, but she's gotta eat eventually!

*she blows me off each time I try to get her to leave the park after she has played with her pack of friends.*

Cuz she knows you're gonna leave the park! Does she check in with you at all during the play? Does she ever give you a chance to pet her while she's romping with her friends? If so, pet her, leash her up, give her a cookie, ask her to sit and then take off the leash to release her to go back and play. She especially blows you off when it's time to leave b/c she doesn't want to leave - and the attachment of the leash means it's time to go. Make her think sometimes you're just silly and attach the leash for no real reason - cuz you're gonna let her go again.

Baby steps. Recognize small successes.

-S


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Also, enrolling in a good group class is a great thing, too because you'll be able to practice obedience around the distractions of other dogs.


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## z&mom (Oct 7, 2006)

Hi FlyingQuizini, 

Thanks for the advice. Is a gentle leader head collar like this Gentle Leader Product Overview ?

Should I try the gentle leader right away together with the "distance training" (25-20 feet away from distractions)? Or can I continue using our flat nylon collar for now and do the distance training?

I will definitely start hand feeding her meals on our walks.

As for the obedience training class, we are ashamed to say that we have already graduated from the basic obedience class months ago. I guess it is time to go for a refresher course :0)

Julie


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Yes, that's the product. If you get one, teach her to wear it first before putting the leash on it. Twice daily for a week, put it on and freed a constant stream of treats for 30 seconds then take it off. One week later, attach the leash for the first walk.

If you're far enough away, you may not need it, although I'm sure it would become helpful at some point.

No need to be ashamed that you graduated a class and your pup insn't perfect. Puppies are a training project for a good three years! It don't happen overnight!

Hang in there and keep us posted!

-S


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I agree w/everything Stephanie suggested  

Now if you do use the gentle leader and her method no doubt you'll still have success. However, I am impatient and I would put a prong on the dog and correct her and carry on with my walk. It would stop the problem more or less instantly, but you'd still have to TRAIN the problem out of her too. It would just stop the behavior NOW so you can get her walked. But don't confuse the prong's working so quickly with the dog being trained.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I hated the GL. Well, Shadow hated the GL. Good luck! I see lots of dogs that do well with it.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

Ok, I see lots of problems here and there not with your dog, there with your methods used! Right now, she is confused do too the methods, as well as you taking her into even a higher level of excitement do to them.

She is not blowing you off, she is confused. You need to back up your training and change your methods used prior. When she is stopping and refusing to move, she is shutting down!!! This not her blowing you off, she is confused. She even is submitting to you I notice in your post by rolling over and showing tummy, she is a very confused golden right now.

Many people believe a quick fix is by using a pinch collar, it is not if a dog has not been trained properly to them and know how to respond to the corrections given. 

How old is your golden???? I don't see this mentioned but going by your avatar she is not a small puppy.

A suggestion would be to back her up a bit so as she understands what is being asked of her and responds properly too the commands in your yard, you also need to back up yourself since I am seeing some major problems in your training of her, you need some one on one help with this so you can learn how to train her properly for this. I know how to work with this, but I couldn't possibly say it all in a post, nor show you how to do it correctly. One on one will be able to do this for you, and your golden so as to prevent further problems.

And please, do not take a offense to this. We all at one time or another have needed to bring in some help.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

A pinch collar IS a quick fix to take a walk with an obnoxious dog, but as I clearly SAID, you have to back it up with training 

Good suggestions here


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I was of the belief the prong collar is a training tool and only used for training.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Yes, but it is a "quick fix" in that it works almost immediately to allow a person to walk a dog without being pulled.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

It sounds to me like this dog would have a hard time doing *anything* in the environment that was described -- it's too over-stimulating for the dog at this time. I bet getting a sit would be challenging too.

I think the key is getting the dog out around distractions but working at a level that the dog can handle. Anything else is like asking a 3rd grader to do geometry! Sure - they can do SOME math at that age, but geometry, at that age, it too much for them. For this dog, distractions at that level, are too much for her.

Gotta break it down to a point where the dog can have success and be rewarded for doing what is expected of her.

-S


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## z&mom (Oct 7, 2006)

Goldndust said:


> Ok, I see lots of problems here and there not with your dog, there with your methods used! Right now, she is confused do too the methods, as well as you taking her into even a higher level of excitement do to them.
> 
> She is not blowing you off, she is confused. You need to back up your training and change your methods used prior. When she is stopping and refusing to move, she is shutting down!!! This not her blowing you off, she is confused. She even is submitting to you I notice in your post by rolling over and showing tummy, she is a very confused golden right now.
> 
> ...


Z is 17 months old. I agree that the distraction at the park is much more than she could handle and it does not help that it is the FIRST thing she sees when we step out of our apartment building. I have difficulty getting her away from the distraction to go for a brisk walk before heading back to the park to play later (as a reward for walking/working). Therefore we have been getting out earlier at 6.15 pm (15 mins before the dogs start to gather). 

*Prong Collar* -- I am not confident in using a prong collar, as I have read from many of your posts that it has to be used correctly otherwise the dog could be physically hurt, or it could do more damage then good in terms of training and the relationship between handler and dog. Besides, the only place I could get a prong collar here is through a trainer, and he will not sell the collar to me unless I attend some lessons with him to learn the correct way of using it effectively. I have seen him using it on a beagle and Great Dane during our basic obedience class, and I am not impressed. I felt very sorry for the Great Dane as I could see how fearful and confused the poor animal was. During one class where he was teaching the "down" command, he demonstrated on the beagle (beagle refused to down), by stepping sharply onto the leash causing the beagle to yelp and it did go down. BUT it was on a prong collar! 

*Gentle Leader* -- I have checked a few of the major pet supplies stores around here, and they don't have it available. I may have to order it online, but DH does not like the idea of using it on Z. He suggested we use the choke chain we previously used only during the obedience class.

We put the choke chain on her this evening, and she almost instantly improved by 70%. We did not have to pop the leash many times. It was as if she thought we were back to obedience training class again. But this time, she wasn't upset like she used to be when we put the choke chain on her months back. She was heeling fine, and was a lot more attentive to me. However, when an unleashed dog (with no owner to be seen) snuck up on us (about 5 feet from us), she planted her butt on the ground and refused to move. I told her "heel" and took two steps forward, she threw her head back (tightening the choke collar around her neck) and stared at me, refusing to budge. *So was she shutting down and/or confused?* I did not want to drag her away with the choke chain, so we waited until DH managed to shoo the other dog away, then I told her to heel again, and she moved along politely. 

*"If she's going lock and load on other dogs when they are 20 feet away, then you need to get her 25 feet away. She'll still know they're there, but might be able to focus on you, so you stand a chance at teaching her you can be more fun even around other dogs."* 

Question: How do I teach/show her that I can be more fun even around other dogs? I have tried:
(1) running away and around like a lunatic, calling out to her -- she glanced over at me very briefly, and lunged ahead towards the other dogs
(2) hid behind a tree and called out to her -- she saw me hiding and turned back towards the other dogs
(3) hid behind a tree and DH asked her "where is Mommy?" -- she ignored him and lunged towards other dogs

*Attach the leash for no reason *-- I have already been doing that, and she does not mind it at all, I could still walk her around the park leashed, as long as I am not walking across the street away from the park or her pack of friends. So I think I should practise walking her away from the park, then back to the park for no reason.

*Feeding her meals during our walk*-- I gave her some when she returned to me on recall, and when she heeled politely next to me. But I did not give her the usual full portion as I was afraid the food coupled with her offleash running/brisk walking could cause bloat or indigestion. I fed her the balance of the meal when we got home.

*Back up on our training* -- Did I understand you correctly, do you mean I should go back to basic, train her in a more controlled environment with no/less distractions? I train her at home daily and in the small garden within the apartment building compound. She does everything beautifully -- sit, stay, down, come, etc. 

I really appreciate all the replies and suggestions from everyone. I take no offense. I learn something new everytime when I ask questions.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Stephanie can explain this better than I can, but I know we were taught to distract and break eye contact even if the other dog is at a distance. You can step in between the dog's view with your dog right in front of you and ask for a "sit." Anything that draws their attention and then focus back to you. 

Once you can get the dogs focus on you and commands are followed, you can shorten the distance between you and another dog. Then you work on the same thing, getting closer and closer. 

I don't know if I'm making sense. I'm visual and I see, better than I explain...


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## Me&Ruby (Aug 20, 2007)

*Thread revival*



z&mom said:


> Question: How do I teach/show her that I can be more fun even around other dogs? I have tried:
> (1) running away and around like a lunatic, calling out to her -- she glanced over at me very briefly, and lunged ahead towards the other dogs
> (2) hid behind a tree and called out to her -- she saw me hiding and turned back towards the other dogs
> (3) hid behind a tree and DH asked her "where is Mommy?" -- she ignored him and lunged towards other dogs


Hope you don't mind this revival/hijack (z&mom: your issues are close to mine, though mine's to do more with the 'come' command, but generally also to get my puppy's attention while seeing/mixing with other dogs in public. I see that my Ruby is SO engaged with the other dogs that many a time she doesn't even so much as glance over!


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## Rastadog (Oct 24, 2006)

*I think this is a basic recall issue*

Train the recall so no is not an option. Your dog has no idea that being called is not optional. Start at home on a 6' lead , come means now without question. Try training all distant things on lead with no distractions. One command, praise or correct. Make the recall happy, big time praise and cookie or toy. You must, before training, have it in your head what your expectations are. If they are not clear to you they won't be clear to the dog. That means it's important that you know your role in being consistant, happy and positive and be prepared to correct when needed. To me the recall is the most important command in real life. If you want to be offlead it is mandatory. If your dog gets out it's a potential life saver. Teach your dog that come means now , to me. Please excuse my soapbox. I just think it's most important.


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## Me&Ruby (Aug 20, 2007)

You're of course right in that- I think we'd been moving too fast. But this morning she was PERFECT-BECAUSE we went out late, and she was VERY hungry, and I had LOTS of kibbles (virtually gave half her breakfast in bits in the park)! It was pouring down, I'd thought we'd just have a 'quick one' but decided it's a 'good day' to train as there would be few/no other dogs in this weather! Let her roam and called from farther and farther and each time a big handful of food. Another dog DID appear later and I managed to call her back TWICE as she ran that way, treated her AND let her go back then called her back from the dog's owner! Even came back from being in pursuit of a cyclist!
She sucked on leash on the way home though (maybe still hungry/excited) - well, can't have everything!
Just wonder how long have to keep delivering her meals this way!!


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