# Mismarked Golden Retriever Puppy



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

I'll let the experts comment on the breeding aspect... but from a golden lovers aspect, he's ADORABLE and as long as he's your sweet fur baby and full of love, that's the important thing. Give him a hug and scratch fromthe golden crowd at our house.


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## Augie's Mom

He sure is a cutie! I'm interested in hearing what the breeders say.


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## 3459

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> I'll let the experts comment on the breeding aspect... but from a golden lovers aspect, he's ADORABLE and as long as he's your sweet fur baby and full of love, that's the important thing. Give him a hug and scratch fromthe golden crowd at our house.


Agreed! Golden hugs, here. :wavey:


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## mylissyk

I'm curious, why did they breed the male who is clearly not within breed standard?

Your baby is adorable.


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## Debles

Your pup is very cute. and Welcome!
I don't know much about breeding but I would think there has to be some other breed mixed in there.
The parents are nice looking dogs. The mother is a beautiful golden.
I wonder why they didn't breed her with a registered golden or was it an "accident"?


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## nixietink

I'm not sure but WOW. VERY beautiful!


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## TheHooch

He is as cute as anything I have ever seen but he is definitely a mix


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## olik

not a breeder.But love your pup.Very cute.If your are not planing to do shows who cares-absolutly adorable.


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## jealous1

He sure is a cutie-pie. Our little golden mix has white on his face which kind of makes him look older than he is but love him just the way he is.


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## Pointgold

Your puppy is very cute. While both parents are pretty, Papa is cleary not a purebred Golden. 
"Mismarked" is a term that is used regarding dogs that have markings as an allowable part of their standard, and those markings are deviant from the allowed. Goldens are not to be "marked", and only a few whites hairs are permissable.


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## Sunfish

It was a planned litter.

It is a family that owns the female (she isn't with a show home) and they have always been amazed at her wonderful temperment- and friends of theirs had the mismarked male (also wonderful temperment), so they decided to breed them for those reasons. 
They aren't planning on having another litter- or if they do, it might be 2-3 years down the road. They are unsure if they will use the same stud.
They were fully aware that it doesn't meet the golden breed standard, but because they don't show, they breed for temperment. It was pretty much a one time thing, and I am positive they are not a puppy mill, breeding for money etc.

Yep, I think our little girl Bella is quite the unique little cutie!

Here is the webpage for the mismarked labs if anyone is curious. There are some that are also very heavily mismarked. http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/mismarks.html 
These too are all purebreed dogs. Its amazing what genetics can potentially do!!

Although everything I have been told has been that she is not a mix, does anyone have an idea what the potential mix could possibly be? 
(we have had a few tell us she has the markings of a duck toller or a spaniel).


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## TheHooch

Dad almost makes me think he was a Golden/Bermese Moutain dog mix. If you look at the pups feet and chest and the dad's feet and chest that is definitely (to my mind's thinking) a genetic marker.


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## sharlin

All I know is that your little girl is gorgeous. I know it goes against the breed standard but I do like seeing white.


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## TheHooch

I think the dad is a gorgeous dog he just shouldn;t be represented to people as a mismarked golden but he could eat scraps from my table anytime and so could that cute pupper.


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## PeanutsMom

Sunfish said:


> It was a planned litter.
> 
> It is a family that owns the female (she isn't with a show home) and they have always been amazed at her wonderful temperment- and friends of theirs had the mismarked male (also wonderful temperment), so they decided to breed them for those reasons.
> They aren't planning on having another litter- or if they do, it might be 2-3 years down the road. They are unsure if they will use the same stud.
> They were fully aware that it doesn't meet the golden breed standard, but because they don't show, they breed for temperment. It was pretty much a one time thing, and I am positive they are not a puppy mill, breeding for money etc.
> 
> Yep, I think our little girl Bella is quite the unique little cutie!
> 
> Here is the webpage for the mismarked labs if anyone is curious. There are some that are also very heavily mismarked. http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/mismarks.html
> These too are all purebreed dogs. Its amazing what genetics can potentially do!!
> 
> Although everything I have been told has been that she is not a mix, does anyone have an idea what the potential mix could possibly be?
> (we have had a few tell us she has the markings of a duck toller or a spaniel).


Wow, I had never seen that before. The labs with the mosiac coloring were startling, but precious. Your pup and his parents are absolutely adorable


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## Pointgold

Both parents are attractive dogs, but as this was a planned breeding I would ask if they did any clearances before doing it? While breeding for temperament is important, the risk of producing hip or elbow dysplasia, heart problems, or hereditary eye disease is very high when breeding dogs without a good history of genetic health clearances. If they haven't, and are planning to either repeat the breeding, or breed the female to a different male, hopefully they will have the necessary clearances done before doing so.


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## FlyingQuizini

TheHooch said:


> Dad almost makes me think he was a Golden/*Bermese* Moutain dog mix.


 Dad does look a little Toller-ish to me, but there aren't that many Tollers around, so it seems less likely he's actually a Toller X. Whatever he is, he's cute and your pup is cute. I just hope they think twice about breeding again.


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## Pointgold

FlyingQuizini said:


> Dad does look a little Toller-ish to me, but there aren't that many Tollers around, so it seems less likely he's actually a Toller X. Whatever he is, he's cute and your pup is cute. I just hope they think twice about breeding again.


Cool dogs, Tollers. Just had one in my last PK class, they got her in Canada. The pup does look like a Toller puppy. Dad looks like he could have some Collie, perhaps, or even English Setter in there.


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## Adriennelane

I love your baby's feet! Maybe there's some Duck Toller there?


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## AndyFarmer

Markings or no markings....all of those dogs are beautiful!


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## dannyra

I've always been amazed that a black and yellow lab mix will produce a chocolate lab, and not create some unusually marked yellow and black dogs.

Your puppy looks an awful lot like the yellow lab and brittney mix that our friends just got.


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## Tahnee GR

Definitely not purebred, but a cutie. The markings do remind me a bit of a Toller, or even a border collie or Aussie.

I have seen lots of Goldens with "some" white on them, generally field bred or BYB, but this is far beyond that.

Temperament to me is a given, not a reason to breed. Health and longevity are definitely up there, as well as structure (form follows functions) and I do have an issue with deliberately breeding mixed breeds with no goal other than to produce puppies. Hopefully there are no health issues with either parent, or the combination, and your adorable puppy is healthy and happy


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## utcarsons

Wow, I think the dad and your pupper are stunning! No idea about your question, sorry, but wanted to say they are beautiful.

Jodie


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## AmyinAr

Your puppy is amazingly cute

It's too bad they are backyard breeders who are adding to the pet overpopulation and I hope they rethink having another litter. http://home.comcast.net/~NoPuppyMillsVA/What_is_a_Backyard_Breeder_/what_is_a_backyard_breeder_.html
perhaps send that link on to them

I hope you stick around and we get more pics! I urge you to look into Golden rescues or reputable breeders they next time you look for a pup! 
You have such great pics, I am so jealous, mine never come out that well! -


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## Susan6953

That pattern of white pigmentation is called piebaldism and I don't know why it couldn't be seen in a golden retriever. What did the other puppies in the litter look like?

He is a sweet pupper regardless.


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## Tahnee GR

Given that the father has the same markings, and is not registered, I am sure that most if not all of the other pups have the same markings.

There is a very interesting article on color genetics in the GRCA news from a year or so ago. It did show the black spots that can occur (somatic mutations that are not inheritable) and a very unique merle pattern on a puppy, but no white 

I don't know if it is the same in dogs, but I believe that white markings in cats are dominant, which is why so many cats have white markings.


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## Michelle4

The only thing I think your puppy is too cute!!


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## ErinJ

I have no idea, but what an adorable pup!! Oh my gosh!


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## Oaklys Dad

No need to run out and buy Clairol for your pup he is a real cutie. With those markings he is out of breed standard but who cares. Enjoy your time with him.


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## Pointgold

There is a LOT to color genetics (and I am often scratching my head as I try to learn it as regards the Collies - what color can or cannot be bred to what color, how to avoid dilutes, etc. It's mind boggling!) 


Basic White Gentics (from the White Aussies Project)

Original genetic research determined that there were 3 genes for white trim. They were "Irish Spotting" (S^i - typical "Lassie" white markings), Piebald Spotting Gene (S^p - non-symmetrical random white pattern), and Extreme White Spotting (or Extreme Piebald) Gene (S^w). More recent research is tending to believe that there are more than three, all of which can be paired in various combinations.
In fetal development, color starts at the "top" of the animal, and works its way down. Dogs with only a tiny bit of white on their chest, nose, and the tips of their toes probably do not carry any white trim genes at all. Their pigmentG just didn't quite extend all the way down. Less white is dominantG to more white, so it is possible for a dog to carry genes for more white than what you can see (so a pair of dogs with very minimal trim can still produce pups with more white than expected.


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## gold'nchocolate

Welcome to Golden Retriever Forum!! I think your puppy is adorable and you must be totally in love! Is this your first golden? The mom and dad are beautiful, also. The markings on the dad sort of remind me of a border collie mix that I had years ago. My dog was black with white but the white markings on your pup's dad remind me of the same white markings on my border collie. Handsome and happy looking guy!


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## Lucky's mom

Dad sure has the Golden structure and hair type.....Very pretty dogs and a sweet looking pup.


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## Old Gold Mum2001

Mix or not, Bella is absolutely GORGEOUS, as is her dad!!!!


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## Faith's mommy

oh, i love his little white mittens!


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## Goldilocks

Sunfish said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I was just curious as to peoples thoughts on this. We have recently brought home a "mismarked" golden retriever puppy (she will be 10 weeks old tomorrow) and is an absolute joy.
> 
> I have done some research on mismarking and can't find very much on goldens (its mostly on Labs). I have heard of having some white on the chest or toes, but mine is pretty heavily mismarked. The mother is a purebreed golden. The father (who is also mismarked) is also a purbreed- but not registered. The story is that he is from registered parents, all of his littermates were registered but he wasn't because of his markings.
> 
> I have included 4 photos.
> 1. Our pup (10weeks old)
> 2. the parents (mother is the golden, father is the golden mismark)
> 3. Our pup at 17 days old
> 4. The father as a puppy.
> 
> Is it possible to have a golden this heavily mismarked, or do you think there is a distinct possibility there may be another breed mixed in?
> 
> I would love everyones thoughts/expertise - mostly out of curiosity!!!


Your puppy is absolutely adorable. Such a sweetie. 

I don't know much of anything about breeding or mismarking so I cannot comment. However, the positioning of the white markings reminds me of the markings on a Bernese Mountain Dog. I wouldn't let the markings bother you one bit, your puppy is beautiful.


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## Old Gold Mum2001

WOW, those first few labbies look like my Jax!!! 
(who actually does have web feet )


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## BeauShel

Hello and welcome,
I think the father could be a golden/tollar mix but is just gorgeous and reminds me of my very first dog. All are gorgeous and love the little mittens on your girl. The last puppy on the link that you gave us is my favorite. It looks like a Cindy Crawford beauy mark. 
No matter pure or mixed Bella is precious. Hope you will post some more pictures of her and tell us some adventures of her.


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## Augustus McCrae's Mom

Your pup is a cutie! After looking at that lab link with the mismarkings, I wonder if that's what the mark is on that new user's (sorry, I forget their name) puppy. Their puppy had a black mark on its face.

EDIT: Hausberg_Kids is the user I was talking about.


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## Heidi36oh

I think she is absolutely adorable, the father looks a lot like a golden. Enjoy her she is precious.


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## avincent52

> It's too bad they are backyard breeders who are adding to the pet overpopulation and I hope they rethink having another litter.... I urge you to look into Golden rescues or reputable breeders they next time you look for a pup!


It seems to me that there's a nasty middle ground that no one talks about between a "backyard breeder" and a "reputable breeder." 

While I wouldn't recommend they have another litter, what's the huge problem with what ths person did? Assuming that these puppies all found good homes, the breeder isn't contributing to pet overpopulation anymore than a breeder of show dogs. (Yes, _theoretically_, the owners could have gotten a rescue dog instead.) 

It seems to me that an even bigger problem are "pseudo reputable" breeders. They put up a good front--they've got a nice website, boast superficially impressive pedigrees, and they may show their dogs (but not win)-- but they really don't understand breeding science and are as lax about their dogs clearances as any backyard breeder. And given the prices that nice goldens can command, they may be pushed into making unsound breeding decisions by a profit motive. 

The dogs may have health or temperament problems, and they and their dogs give the truly reputable breeders a bad name. When it comes to "improving the breed" or not (whatever that means), I think they're even worse than BYBs. 

My $.02 and worth every penny.

allen


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## Tahnee GR

Augustus McCrae's Mom said:


> Your pup is a cutie! After looking at that lab link with the mismarkings, I wonder if that's what the mark is on that new user's (sorry, I forget their name) puppy. Their puppy had a black mark on its face.
> 
> EDIT: Hausberg_Kids is the user I was talking about.


Black markings on Goldens are somatic mutations, can appear almost anywhere on the body, and are not inherited. I have seen some really interesting pictures of Goldens with patches of black, including one puppy who was spotted like a Holstein :bowl:

The September/October 2007 issue of the GRCA News had a great discussion of color genetics in Goldens, and had a special section on black spots.


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## Fransheska

he is such a cutie  i hope all the puppies found great homes,if they did then i dont see anything wrong with the breeding, whats done is done and it did create that beautiful lil puppy! aww i just wanna hug em and kiss em! the parents are very cute also lol that lil puppy must get away with anything, how can you get mad at him


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## mylissyk

avincent52 said:


> It seems to me that there's a nasty middle ground that no one talks about between a "backyard breeder" and a "reputable breeder."
> 
> While I wouldn't recommend they have another litter, what's the huge problem with what ths person did? Assuming that these puppies all found good homes, the breeder isn't contributing to pet overpopulation anymore than a breeder of show dogs. (Yes, _theoretically_, the owners could have gotten a rescue dog instead.)
> 
> It seems to me that an even bigger problem are "pseudo reputable" breeders. They put up a good front--they've got a nice website, boast superficially impressive pedigrees, and they may show their dogs (but not win)-- but they really don't understand breeding science and are as lax about their dogs clearances as any backyard breeder. And given the prices that nice goldens can command, they may be pushed into making unsound breeding decisions by a profit motive.
> 
> The dogs may have health or temperament problems, and they and their dogs give the truly reputable breeders a bad name. When it comes to "improving the breed" or not (whatever that means), I think they're even worse than BYBs.
> 
> My $.02 and worth every penny.
> 
> allen


I suppose it's degrees of "bad". Backyard breeders who find homes for all their puppies and are not breeding multiple females several times a year perhaps are not "bad" breeders. 

But, they have added a number of puppies to the popuplation. If the breeder had not bred that litter of puppies and those same people who would have bought puppies from a backyard breeder had adopted a pet from a shelter or rescue instead they literally would have saved a life in a lot of cases, as well as reduce the number of pets needing homes by that same number. Maybe that doesn't seem like a lot, but when you consider the bigger picture it could reduce the overpopulation of unwanted pets by quite a bit.

It's the big picture that makes the back yard breeder a bad idea.


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## FlyingQuizini

Any breeder who breeds w/o clearances - regardless of the temperament of the pups or how wonderful the homes are that the pups are placed in - is doing a grave dis-service to the breed.


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## 3 goldens

Hellow And Welcome And Your Puppy Is Justdown Righ Beautiful, Pure Gold Or Not. We Hae An Adopted Golde Mix--but Most Do Take Herfor Full Golden. Honey Has White Feet, A White Spot On Her Head And A White Strip Down Her Nos. We Re Pretty Sure That There Is Whippet, Greyhound, Saluki....something Long Those Lines Mixed In With The Golden In Her Makes No Difference O Us, We Loe Her As Much As We Loved Our Pure Gldens.

Ifyour Pups Dad Was Dyed So The White Matched The Ret, I Don't Think Anyone Would Question That He Was Pure Gold--or At Leats I Woulnd't. He Has The Body, The Fur The Looks Of A Golden.

My Dad Would Hve Been Considered A "back Ard Breeder" 50 Years Ago When He Bred His Male Englihs Setter. There Were No Clearences On Either Dog. But They Wre Both Great Hunting Dogs, Both Great Family Dogs, And Thepupsturned Out To Be All Anyone Could Want. Mack Was 10 Before Daddy Allowed Him To Breed. Peole Had Been Clamouring For Him To Do So---everyone That Saw Mack Wanted One Of His Pups. Finally Daddy Realized That Mack Was Getting Old And He Wanted Us To Have A Pup. I Got 2 Of Them.

But Back In Those Days Everyone Had Brid Dogs Or Hound Dogs, Us Country Folks Didn't Know A Thing About Clearences, Etc. We Bred Strictly For Hunting Abllities And Temperament. Strange Thing--not One Of Our English Setters Nor Pointes Ever Hd Hip Or Elbowproblem.s Mack Did Develope Arthritis About The Time He Turned 13--he Died A 15.


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## Hudson

You puppy is really beautiful, and the parents are great looking dogs, dont know about the white markings though!


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## tsdairy

That is one absolutely beautiful puppy!!! And parents too!


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## paula bedard

I think theyre beautiful and your pup is just adorable!!!


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## Lucky's mom

mylissyk said:


> I suppose it's degrees of "bad". Backyard breeders who find homes for all their puppies and are not breeding multiple females several times a year perhaps are not "bad" breeders.
> 
> But, they have added a number of puppies to the popuplation. If the breeder had not bred that litter of puppies and those same people who would have bought puppies from a backyard breeder had adopted a pet from a shelter or rescue instead they literally would have saved a life in a lot of cases, as well as reduce the number of pets needing homes by that same number. Maybe that doesn't seem like a lot, but when you consider the bigger picture it could reduce the overpopulation of unwanted pets by quite a bit.
> 
> It's the big picture that makes the back yard breeder a bad idea.


Well here's my opinon. I don't agree with this line of thought. And this is why. People should be allowed to make the choice of "rescue" or "breeder" without others making the choice for them. I am so very against a totaltarian world and think it works in North Korea or places like that where people live with no freedom to make their own decisions.

I think its commendable for someone to choose rescue but it ought not be forced or manipulated into that decision.

I believe that if this breeder hadn't bred those puppies then those same people would be looking through the paper for another breeder or would have chose a petstore pup. They could have chose a worse breeder (like Lucky's breeder for instance...where the pups were sick).

WE are spinning our wheels and hurting the breed if we work for the utopia world of two choices... rescue and high end "reputable" showdog breeders. 

But I think we CAN work for a world where more dogs are screened to good homes, and pups are healthier and people are more educated. Especially if we give those breeders that care about those things a hint of respect and encouragement.


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## FlyingQuizini

FlyingQuizini said:


> Any breeder who breeds w/o clearances - regardless of the temperament of the pups or how wonderful the homes are that the pups are placed in - is doing a grave dis-service to the breed.


I'll add to my own post from above:

I *don't* think everyone who wants a dog and can't afford to go to a well-respected hobby breeder should be automatically asked to rescue a dog instead. I personally will not likely rescue a dog any time soon. Why? Because for the sports I do, I really want the advantage of raising my partner up from puppyhood. And of course there's the obvious reason of wanting to do my research in advance to try and make sure I'm getting the most physically sound, healthiest piece of puppy clay I can get. I don't have those same abilities with rescue.

I believe that people who aren't truly involved in the breed really shouldn't be experimenting with putting two dogs together to see what happens. You're dealing with living, breathing creatures and your decisions will impact many lives... not only the lives of the dogs you bred and pups that breeding produced, but also the lives of the humans with which you place the pups. That's a huge responsibility.

That said, all "good breeders" had to start somewhere, so if you think you want to try and become a "breeder" then get a mentor. Learn about the process. GET ALL THE CLEARANCES!

I stand by my original statement that any person who breeds w/o clearances - regardless of the temperament of the pups or how wonderful the homes are that the pups are placed in - is doing a grave dis-service to the breed, and is likely using money as their primary motivator for wanting to breed. If you're not doing clearances, I highly doubt you'll be happy with the discovery that "good breeding/puppy raising" is super expensive and you're lucky if you break even!

So please... rescue if you can, support a "good" breeder if you can't rescue and unless you have plans to become an enthusiaist with a mentor, etc., spay/neuter and ENJOY your Golden friend!


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## Debles

I have alot of mixed feelings about this.

It breaks my heart to see all the poor goldens (let alone all dogs) that are in shelters and rescues around the country. Just go to Atlanta's Golden Rescue of The Month to see so many! Anyone would be lucky to have one of those gorgeous sweet dogs!

And I also understand people being so emphatic about breeders having health clearances since Gunner's sire did have clearances and developed eye diseases anyway and they are still breeding him!

But two of my goldens who were never sick a day in their lives and lived to be 12 and 14 , came from a small backyard breeder. And they were registered and had great temperaments.

Max, my heart boy, came from a hobby breeder of field goldens and had hypothyroid and epilepsy as a result. Do I wish this breeder had better health clearances? YES.
Would I have given up having had Max, the best dog in the world? NO WAY!!!

Same goes for Gunner. Selka from the same dam but different sire is healthy at age 9 and his sire lived to be 16.

Prices of wellbred companion goldens with all clearances have gone so high and continue to rise. Many families who want a nice golden can't afford that. and if they want to start out with a puppy, there aren't many in rescue or shelters. 

I understand what people here are saying. It's just if I had gone by those rules,(always bought a pup from a breeder with clearances, champions etc) I wouldn't have had any of the great dogs I have had in my life.


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## avincent52

> WE are spinning our wheels and hurting the breed if we work for the utopia world of two choices... rescue and high end "reputable" showdog breeders.


Exactamundo!!

That's was my problem. I spent the better part of last summer and much of this one looking for a rescue dog. I spend a preposterous amount of time (and by extension, money) and got nothing but frustrated. 

Somewhat reluctantly, decided to go with a breeder, and I think I found a very reputable one. The dog will cost over $1,000 and I'll have to wait five months. 

I'm lucky that I've got the money. I've got the time. And I understand that a healthy $1000 dog is going to be much cheaper than a $400 pup with hip dysplasia.

But I'm not most people, and the lack of something between a time-intensive rescue dog and a money intensive show dog is the reason why puppy mills exist. 

In some weird way, backyard breeders--competent ones who breed healthy, good-tempered dogs with clearances in a sound manner--may not be so much the problem as a solution.

We talk a lot about "improving the breed" here. But if we take a step back, a healthy, happy, but less than show quality dog (like that male in question) in a happy forever home where kids learn to love and respect animals may not "improve the breed" but he might just "improve the world" a little. 

allen

P.S.: We have a human overpopulation problem. Are we going to only let show-quality specimens--say Gisele and Tom Brady--breed?


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## Cam's Mom

You could have the pup tested geneticaly and see what they come up with if your really interested! Your vet can draw blood and send it off.
Very cute pup whatever the mix. Congrtulations!


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## moverking

avincent52 said:


> P.S.: We have a human overpopulation problem.


6 billion miracles is enough:doh:


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## hgatesy

> We have a human overpopulation problem. Are we going to only let show-quality specimens--say Gisele and Tom Brady--breed?


 
Well.... maybe we shouldn't only allow the "show-quality specimens" to have the kids, but I'm all for having people pass some clearances or something to that extent prior to reproducing!! :bowl:


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## TheHooch

hgatesy said:


> Well.... maybe we shouldn't only allow the "show-quality specimens" to have the kids, but I'm all for having people pass some clearances or something to that extent prior to reproducing!! :bowl:


Now that was funny. I was sitting here thinking do they have testing for dumba**ness.


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## mylissyk

avincent52 said:


> ...
> In some weird way, backyard breeders--competent ones who breed healthy, good-tempered dogs with clearances in a sound manner--may not be so much the problem as a solution.
> 
> We talk a lot about "improving the breed" here. But if we take a step back, a healthy, happy, but less than show quality dog (like that male in question) in a happy forever home where kids learn to love and respect animals may not "improve the breed" but he might just "improve the world" a little.
> 
> allen
> 
> P.S.: We have a human overpopulation problem. Are we going to only let show-quality specimens--say Gisele and Tom Brady--breed?


I agree with all of that. Very well said. I think it should be possible to get a healthy, happy puppy without spending thousands of dollars.

I also think that male dog is beautiful and unique, and the puppy is adorable. I would love to watch him grow up through pictures on the board.

This debate really should not have overshadowed the OP's excitement about their new puppy. I sincerely hope we didn't run them off permanently.


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## avincent52

> I was sitting here thinking do they have testing for dumba**ness.


Unfortunately, I think in many cases the litmus test for dumba$$ness involves _having_ kids.

best
Allen


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## Sunfish

I haven't been run off of this thread  The comments and discussions are quite interesting. I was completely aware that this board is very much a "improve the breed" board. Thats why I was curious as to if anyone had ever seen markings on a pup such as mine. 

I realize how hard core many breeders can be. One of my co-workers grew up in a golden breeding/showing home and as soon as he saw pictures of Bella and the sire, his first reaction was that he was surprised that the breeder didn't automatically kill the pup (the sire), as many breeders would not want a mistake like that showing up in their bloodline. He said he knows of several instances where reputable breeders "dispose" of puppies that don't meet the breed standards even though they are legitimately breed. He even said that his family had quietly given away a less desirable pup to a good home with out registering it. 

Pointgold, you mentioned that you were studying dog colour genetics- so with 2 carriers of white trim genes together possibly mixing, do you think they could potentially create a puppy as extravagantly marked as the sire? 

If genetic testing was inexpensive, I would completely have her tested out of curiosity sake, but she is a pet and wonderful no matter what her breeding is. I was just curious as to if anyone had seen or heard of this (or was willing to admit it . 

I understand where some of the comments were coming from. Yes, we did spend almost 1 year going to the local shelter looking for a dog. Obviously we didn't find one that suited our family or lifestyle. And yes, even very reputable breeders or ones that claim to be reputable that sell very expensive dogs have cases of hip dysplasia etc. We found the right pup at the right time and the breeders were wonderful. We well screened them, and they screened us. Every pup went to a wonderful home and we will always keep in touch. The scary thing is, and what made this breeder very good in my eyes is that there were contacted by several "breeders" that were looking to buy the mismarked puppies, strictly for breeding purposes because the markings were so rare (I imagine these people were seeing dollar signs in their eyes trying to sell rare puppies). The breeders of my pup were appalled by this and made sure that each and every puppy went to a home where they would not be used for this purpose. 

I will make sure to post picutes of Bella as she grows up. Even if she isn't the "perfect golden" . She is still perfect to us


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## PeanutsMom

So glad your sticking around! Cant wait to see more pics of Bella


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## AquaClaraCanines

He is gorgeous!


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## BeauShel

Sunfish said:


> Even if she isn't the "perfect golden" . She is still perfect to us


And that is all that really matters. Love is the most important thing.


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## Phillyfisher

Just wanted to say that is one beautiful pup- welcome to the forum!


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## Ljilly28

Congratulations on your new puppy. I agree with the two posts that see Bernese Mt dog somewhere in dad. _Dogfancy_ mag has a little article on genetic testing for breeds this month. Not that it matters for reasons of love- just bc it's fun to see little habits emerge that are identified with a breed. Your puppy is beautiful and has such an expressive little face.


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## Zoeys mom

Both dogs are beautiful! Enjoy your new addition.


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## spruce

what a lovely family! -- the main thing is the golden attitude. 

Our wonderful young Bridger has alot of white on his chest & when asked if he's purebred, I say he's poorbred (or is is poorbread?)


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## 3 goldens

Again, Your Bella Is Beutiful And I Would Consider Her Perfect For My House As Well. I Have A Habit Of Looking At The Inside More Than The Outside Of My Dogs And Their Physical Flaws Don't Bother Me One Iota, And Never Have.


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## Capehank

Isabella (Izzy), is a registered golden. She has markings similar to Bella on her face. Her father is of the hunting line and that is where the white comes from. She has a brother in a different litter that matches her, but the others from the litters do not have as much white. There were also some pups with no white at all.

Here are some pictures of Izzy at various ages. :wavey:


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## HovawartMom

Yr puppy is gorgeous and so is Issy!.
By the way,when I lived in NJ,I saw a purebred Bernese Mountain Dog that had no white,whatsoever!.Gorgeous dog.
Obviously,the pup was sold as a pet on a spay/neuter contract!.Mismarking does happen in any breed,it doesn't make it,less of a purebred dog,just not a show dog that can reproduce!.


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## Debles

Bella and Izzy are both totally cute lovable huggable puppies! Hope you keep us updated with pics!


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## Asteri00

OK I just want to let you know how cute they are. I don't know much about mismarkings, but they look precious!!


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## Romeo1

Sunfish said:


> I will make sure to post picutes of Bella as she grows up. Even if she isn't the "perfect golden" . She is still perfect to us


Please do. She is a beautiful, unique puppy!!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

avincent52 said:


> Exactamundo!!
> 
> 
> 
> In some weird way, backyard breeders--competent ones who breed healthy, good-tempered dogs with clearances in a sound manner--may not be so much the problem as a solution.
> 
> 
> allen


Allen, I think you are describing a hobby breeder, not a BYB.


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## Sunfish

*Bella pics just over a year later*

Hi Everyone, 

I thought that I would post some photos of Bella (the mismarked Golden who is the topic of this thread), just over a year later. She has grown up to be quite the pretty little girl. 

I don't know how true it is or not, but supposdly one of the foundation golden retriever sires named Culhams Copper (I may have spelt it wrong) was a golden with markings much like Bella. I believe the date was around 1904 or something along that line. I have heard that its possible to have "throwbacks" to older lineages.

Regardless, I thought everyone my enjoy the updated photos and maybe add to some more interesing discusison.


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## MorningGlory

Thats the same dog--oh my! So incredibly beautiful. 

Her marking look less than they did a year ago. I want to hug her, so cute!!

Thanks for sharing.


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## AquaClaraCanines

The markings often fade with age. They are not uncommon, though rarely that extreme as her father.

She is beautiful!


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## riddle03

What a beautiful girl you have there ! I just want to hug and kiss all over her! Please more pics. !


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## Madilyn

Bella is absolutely beautiful! She sure looks Golden to me.


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## Jennifer

Wow!! She is beautiful!


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## paula bedard

Wow, she sure did grow up pretty! Thanks for the updated pics.


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## fostermom

She is gorgeous!

I wish we could educate the rescues about mismarked goldens. I have seen some that looked like purebreds, but they had a lot of white on them.


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## esSJay

She's beautiful! The markings are less noticeable now that she's older, but I actually like them!

Contrary to what posters said when this thread was first started a year ago, I don't see any Toller in her. She looks all golden to me now that she's grown up!


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## Benlora

My Logie has a tiny white mark on his head but two of his litter brothers both had quite a big white splodge on their foreheads. 

They were definitely pure bred and their pedigree can be traced back to the early 1900s.

I find it fascinating that there are so many dark goldens in the US as there seems to be far more of the lighter coloured ones in the UK despite the dark colour being the original colour.

Eileen

PS I think the mismarking doesn't spoil what is still a beautiful dog


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## BeauShel

She is gorgeous. One of my first goldens had a white spot on her chest. And if faded as she got older.


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## Laurie

He's original looking........very adorable!!


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## timberwolf

She's a beauty!!!
I love the white feet


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## Dreammom

Just beautiful! I want one like her...


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## LuckyPup

absolutely beautiful!


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## pt83

I agree with everyone here, she is a beauty and looks 100% golden 
It is interesting to see bi-colored goldens, makes them so special!


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## mylissyk

I want one just like her too!


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## Tahnee GR

I think she is a mix but could be a 3/4 one, if her Dad had a Golden mom and a travelling Dad, and her mother was purebred. She sure has a cute face!


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## Pointgold

Tahnee GR said:


> I think she is a mix but could be a 3/4 one, if her Dad had a Golden mom and a travelling Dad, and her mother was purebred. She sure has a cute face!


I agree. Dad, while a handsome dog, was definately a miX.
She's cute, for sure.


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## K9-Design

I am thinking dad was mixed with either spaniel type or collie type.
They are VERY attractive dogs! But not golden retrievers. Golden retrievers are, after all, golden 
SOLID is dominant over white markings. Many goldens carry for limited white spotting and occasionally you will see white spot on chest, white snip on forehead, white tip on tail, white toes. (My golden Fisher -- an AKC Champion -- has a white chest spot and white hairs at the end of his tail, and has thrown small bits of white in his puppies.) What your pup and her daddy show is EXTREME white for this breed, in fact, I have never seen a purebred golden come close to that much white. However in breeds where solid-to Irish white spotting pattern is acceptable, those are very common markings, i.e. collies, spaniels, boxers, etc. This would never spontaneously pop up in a purebred golden breeding so you really must assume something else is in the woodshed with "dad."
While I personally think they are very attractive dogs, there is a slippery slope to breeding "mismarks" like this ------- especially with a breed whose hallmark characteristic is their color! A few more generations of this and you're going to have "color headed white golden retrievers." 
The DNA breed test is about $100, an affordable way to meet your curiosity!
(BTW I was the author of the GRNews article on color genetics, published about 2 yrs ago)


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## LibertyME

So fun to see her all grown up! What a pretty girl!


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## AquaClaraCanines

What about Izzie, the registered purebred posted in this thread also, though?


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## Capehank

*Bella'a twin*

Here is a few pictures of my pure golden retriever. I do believe we could have twins. Here is Isabella, Izzy. The last one is Ted, Izzy's brother.


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## paula bedard

Questions aside, they sure are pretty dogs. I don't remember seeing Izzy's pics before either. Maybe 'Marked Goldens' will one day be recognized.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Izzy's pics are on page 2 or 3 of this thread I think.


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## paula bedard

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Izzy's pics are on page 2 or 3 of this thread I think.


Thanks, found 'em on page 7. I thought maybe they'd been posted in another thread at an earlier time and I'd missed them.


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## Capehank

I am impressed with the people on this site. You guys remembered Izzy. Yes, she is a registered golden retriever. Her white comes from her father, but he only has white on his feet. Izzy has white on her feet and face. In a later litter, there is a male with the same markings as Izzy. This indicates to me that mom was not a wanderer.


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## Mandarama

Murph has tiny patches of white on his toes on the front; we call them his French manicure! 

Bella and Izzy are both gorgeous. Love seeing the photos!


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## Sammie's Mom

I agree with olik who cares if you are not showing. The pup is absolutely adorable.


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## Pointgold

paula bedard said:


> . Maybe 'Marked Goldens' will one day be recognized.


??? I sure hope not. :doh: 

They ARE cute dogs, but there absolutely has to be another breed in there. As for being registered, we know that more than one dog can sire a litter. (Hence the AKC's multiple sired litter registration, which requires DNA testing to properly register each puppy to the correct sire.


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## momtoMax

I read this entire posting, at a year old - your golden is very cute! I am just going to backtrack to address some of the comments like, why breed him if he isn't in the standards? or people who breed for temperment are doing a disservice to the breed. 

The breeder we got Max from also bred for Red Bears temperment even though he wasn't registered. His mother was. If they hadn't then Max wouldn't be here and anyone who feels Max or your pet are disservices to the breed have their metaphorical heads up their butts IMO. Being registered doesn't mean healthy friendly amazing within all standards golden and not being registered doesn't mean that golden can't be all those things. I am so grateful for people like Max's breeders and yours- and if your baby and the other babies of that litter grew up to be great dogs, I, for one, am glad that they continued and had another litter.


----------



## wungdawn

I can't believe a breeder would have sold a puppy like that as a golden retriever, the father is not a pure golden and anyone who thinks he is, needs to go back and read the standard again, the puppy is very cute but not pure. This is the difference between a BYB and hobby breeder, one who knows the breed and who they are breeding two, and have done the DNA on our males and the one's who breed for money. I really think you should do a DNA test on your puppy they run about 80.00 and that will give you your answer.


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## olik

mylissyk said:


> I want one just like her too!


me too.They are absolutely adorable.


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## Faith's mommy

she was an adorable puppy and has grown into a gorgeous adult dog! love the white markings!


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## Sunfish

I asked the vet about DNA testing. It runs $250 up here. I don't intend to breed her (she is already fixed), and I am not a hard core "goldens must meet the current breed standard" type of person. The reason I say "current" is as we all know, breed standards change, "new" breeds get recognized. I can think of better things to spend $250 on. 

There is an interestering discussion on this thread http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/a-golden-retriever-with-lots-of-white-on-it/ You can see Bellas sires full brother and there are also pictures of her full sister on it. I just stumbled upon this thread fairly recently, it was started long before I found it (the owner of one of Bellas sisters was also seeking information on the white markings). 
The person running the thread seems to have done a lot of work researching the "old" lines of golden retrievers and has found documentation to support the white markings. Thought some of you may find this interesting. Especially because there is also Izzy who is almost a twin to Bella and registered. 

I am loving the thought provoking discussion on this thread. And thanks to everyone who has given complements to Bella. A will post some more pictures soon.


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## mylissyk

You don't have to use your vet for DNA testing, you can send it in yourself to a couple of differen companies:

http://www.canineheritage.com/

http://www.vetdnacenter.com/canine.html

Not that it matters at all, I know what breed she is, Beautiful and Loved.


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## paula bedard

Thanks Sunfish that link is interesting. I remember way back when, Collies had the white stripe down their nose breed out of the breed because it was considered unwanted. Well, Pal comes along and ends up replacing the dog actor in Lassie Come Home and all of a sudden the white stripe is popular and everyone wants a Lassie look alike. Maybe one day, white marked Goldens will be desired also, who knows? 

Here's the original Trailer to Lassie Come Home. I love this movie and still watch it every time it comes on...and cry every time too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnPor-lZrUc


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## AquaClaraCanines

Being in the standard doesn't make a dog purebred or not. I have read the Golden standard many times. A FAULT means the dog has a fault, not that he is not purebred.

My Golden has too straight of a rear and front. That's a pretty bad fault (more serious than a mismark, this is structure here!) but that doesn't mean she isn't purebred.


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## Sunfish

Thanks for the links Mylissyk, I looked into a different company almost a year ago . The only thing is that none of the companies have Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers in their list and I would love to have that profile included. The vast majority of people that have stopped us on the street to ask about her think that she is part duck toller (even toller breeders have commented on the remarkable similarity to tollers). Bella also picks out both goldens and tollers as her "prefered" breeds to play with when she has the choice.
We know 100% that Bella is at least 3/4 Golden and based on info from the sires breeder she should be 100% golden...but who knows???


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## Pointgold

No one has_ ever_ said that breeding for temperament does a disservice to the breed. ONLY breeding for one trait however, does. And breed standards serve an important purpose, whether anyone cares to acknowledge that or not. If someone wishes to purposefully produce dogs that do not meet the standard, or intentionally attempt to produce faults or disqualifications because they think they are cute, or whatever other reasons they use to justify it, fine, but don't kid yourself, or defraud others, into believing that they will soon be recognized. Changes to breed standards are very difficult to facilitate, and are not done on a whim. "New" breeds are not added all the time - it is a difficult and time consuming process for any breed to be recognized and the record keeping is intensive. 

Registering a dog as "purebred" doesn't necessarily speak to it's "quality". nor does it speak to it's temperament. I've seen dogs registered as _______(fill in a breed) that look little like what they should, and have had awesome temperaments, and conversely, I've seen beautiful _________(fill in a breed) who I would hesitate to feed, let alone breed, as their temperaments were so horrific. Caring, responsible breeders strive to produce healthy, correct dogs with sound temperaments, and to diminish that by saying "Who care's if you are not showing/breeding/whatever" is what is doing a disservice to the breed. Many of the faults that are listed in the standard are not simply cosmetic, but will affect health and soundness.
While the dogs in this thread *are* as cute as can be, and no one is questioning their value as well loved pets,they are not representative of Goldens as supported by color genetics, and the research referred to is spotty at best. I would recommend reading K-9 Design's article for the facts. Maybe she would be willing to reproduce it here on the forum. 

Yes, this is a "hot button" topic for me, and other breeders (you know, us *********breeder's, who feel that the standard must be followed, and who have worked so hard to maintain and improve the breed we love) and I will not apologize for standing up for that standard and doing my best to produce GOLDEN RETRIEVERS that are sound in mind and body, as well as being the beautiful dogs that the standard describes.


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## Sunfish

Here are a few more photos of Bella


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## desilu

I can tell that Bella is a well-loved member of your home! Such a sweet face . . .


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## damita

Pointgold said:


> ONLY breeding for one trait however, does. And breed standards serve an important purpose, whether anyone cares to acknowledge that or not.
> 
> Yes, this is a "hot button" topic for me, and other breeders (you know, us *********breeder's, who feel that the standard must be followed, and who have worked so hard to maintain and improve the breed we love) and I will not apologize for standing up for that standard and doing my best to produce GOLDEN RETRIEVERS that are sound in mind and body, as well as being the beautiful dogs that the standard describes.


:You_Rock_

And I do think that Bella is adorable!!!


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## solinvictus

Bella is adorable and her value is priceless. 

On the subject of breeding to the breed standard. Form follows function. When breeding outside of standard the breeder is risking a change somewhere on the DNA strands. When there is a change in the DNA strand not only can it change the dogs appearance but most likely changes both structure and behavior. 

I am thankful that there are many breeders that actually have a strong grasp of this information and understand the possible repercussions of breeding outside of the standard.

Simplified, long years, short perky ears, coat color, physical structure, and behaviors are all tied together on the DNA strands. When you change coat colors not only is the coat color affect but a behavior and physical structure. I believe there was a study on the fox over in Russia that shows as they changed the behavior of the foxes, (made them more domesticated) the shape of their ears, tails and so on changed making them slowly different than the original fox.

Everyone willing to breed outside of the standard are risking the long term longevity of having our breed.


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## solinvictus

Simplified, long years

should have been ears not years


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## solinvictus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

http://cbsu.tc.cornell.edu/ccgr/behaviour/Index.htm

Again, I cannot stress enough that the slightest changes on the DNA strands could totally change the behavior that we know in love in the Retriever.


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## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> Caring, responsible breeders strive to produce healthy, correct dogs with sound temperaments, and to diminish that by saying "Who care's if you are not showing/breeding/whatever" is what is doing a disservice to the breed.


Well said!


----------



## Hiroko

I have no idea about the breed, but he is very adorable


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## Ljilly28

Bella is so pretty, and her dad was too. There's no way she's a purebred golden retriever though. I agree with the poster who saw some collie/shepherd in the shape of her muzzle. I would love a collie/Golden mix, as I adore both breeds!


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## Pointgold

Ljilly28 said:


> Bella is so pretty, and her dad was too. There's no way she's a purebred golden retriever though. I agree with the poster who saw some collie/shepherd in the shape of her muzzle. I would love a collie/Golden mix, as I adore both breeds!


How about a Goldenese Mountain Retriever? I will be boarding a (new) champion male Berner, and I have a BISS, US pt'd Golden who will be in season while he is with me... The puppies would be _soooo _cute, and they'd have great temperaments.


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## Ljilly28

I would love pick girl from a Nitelite Goldenese Mountain Retriever.


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## GoldenSail

momtoMax said:


> The breeder we got Max from also bred for Red Bears temperment even though he wasn't registered. His mother was. If they hadn't then Max wouldn't be here and anyone who feels Max or your pet are disservices to the breed have their metaphorical heads up their butts IMO. Being registered doesn't mean healthy friendly amazing within all standards golden and not being registered doesn't mean that golden can't be all those things. I am so grateful for people like Max's breeders and yours- and if your baby and the other babies of that litter grew up to be great dogs, I, for one, am glad that they continued and had another litter.


Wait a minute--so if a woman goes out and cheats on her husband and becomes pregnant is it ok because there is nothing wrong with the baby? Is it such a great thing because she got a baby out of the deal and the baby grows up to be a wonderful person? Or can we separate the too? Baby=good, Adultery = Bad

I think what they have been trying to get at is that ignoring certain things in breeding (such as not doing clearances, so being ignorant of any potential problems) is bad. Are the puppies bad? Are the parents bad? No, but the breeder is arguably not making the best choices which depending on your view is a disservice to the breed.

--

As far as the lineage of Bella, honestly I wouldn't have a clue. She looks golden to me, but dad doesn't (and I am not referring to the simple fact that he has white on him). She looks like a wonderful dog though, and really, that's all that matters golden or not.


----------



## momtoMax

GoldenSail said:


> Wait a minute--so if a woman goes out and cheats on her husband and becomes pregnant is it ok because there is nothing wrong with the baby? Is it such a great thing because she got a baby out of the deal and the baby grows up to be a wonderful person? Or can we separate the too? Baby=good, Adultery = Bad
> 
> I think what they have been trying to get at is that ignoring certain things in breeding (such as not doing clearances, so being ignorant of any potential problems) is bad. Are the puppies bad? Are the parents bad? No, but the breeder is arguably not making the best choices which depending on your view is a disservice to the breed.
> 
> --
> 
> As far as the lineage of Bella, honestly I wouldn't have a clue. She looks golden to me, but dad doesn't (and I am not referring to the simple fact that he has white on him). She looks like a wonderful dog though, and really, that's all that matters golden or not.


Only responding to this one as it's the only one that I can see. Look, you are welcome to do the AKC thing/standard fitting/redefining the breed thing - I have no problem with that and if there weren't people doing that, we wouldn't have a well defined golden. I however think that by deciding that it's best not to breed a golden just because it's not AKC registered makes it not fit to breed. I very much disagree. My Max came from a healthy dad and mom- the only issues with dad is that he's too big for the standard and didn't have registration papers. On the plus, great health/elbows/hips, beautiful, phenomental disposition - gee, all the things a golden is supposed to be. For someone to say that he should not be bred just because he doesn't have his AKC paper - I think that's anal and wrong. Not every golden should be bred, I agree. Joint issues, seizure disorders, bad dispositions, etc etc are all good reasons not to breed a dog - lack of a piece of paper is not. 

I really think to suggest that breeding a healthy, phenomenal disposition perfect breed snapshot to continue that line in a responsible way is akin to adultery is ludicrous to me. I think your analogy is apples and oranges and again, I say Max is a gift and others like him are - and more perfect and can be a lot closer to the breed standard than some of the AKC papered dogs in this current evironment. 

You can go on and on from your platform but I'm not going to agree with you and I'm not going to think that your black and white view is right or completely grounded in reality.

If I wanted to be just as zany as you - I guess I could say well, are you saying that if a caucasian and an asain have a child, does that mean that child is less perfect since it doesn't fit either standard but I get that is just as off as the comparison you are trying to make.


----------



## GoldenSail

momtoMax said:


> Only responding to this one as it's the only one that I can see. Look, you are welcome to do the AKC thing/standard fitting/redefining the breed thing - I have no problem with that and if there weren't people doing that, we wouldn't have a well defined golden. I however think that by deciding that it's best not to breed a golden just because it's not AKC registered makes it not fit to breed. I very much disagree. My Max came from a healthy dad and mom- the only issues with dad is that he's too big for the standard and didn't have registration papers. On the plus, great health/elbows/hips, beautiful, phenomental disposition - gee, all the things a golden is supposed to be. For someone to say that he should not be bred just because he doesn't have his AKC paper - I think that's anal and wrong. Not every golden should be bred, I agree. Joint issues, seizure disorders, bad dispositions, etc etc are all good reasons not to breed a dog - lack of a piece of paper is not.
> 
> I really think to suggest that breeding a healthy, phenomenal disposition perfect breed snapshot to continue that line in a responsible way is akin to adultery is ludicrous to me. I think your analogy is apples and oranges and again, I say Max is a gift and others like him are - and more perfect and can be a lot closer to the breed standard than some of the AKC papered dogs in this current evironment.
> 
> You can go on and on from your platform but I'm not going to agree with you and I'm not going to think that your black and white view is right or completely grounded in reality.
> 
> If I wanted to be just as zany as you - I guess I could say well, are you saying that if a caucasian and an asain have a child, does that mean that child is less perfect since it doesn't fit either standard but I get that is just as off as the comparison you are trying to make.


I don't understand what you mean by MY black and white view, as I made one post and it did not even come close to reflect my feelings on the subject.

My point was just because something good comes of something (a child) does not mean the path taken there is correct. (Sorry about the analogy, I do not equate it to adultery, but I do think the basic idea again is that not all good things are borne of good decisions). A poor choice does not always mean poor consequences, IMO. And no, for the record I do not think AKC 'papered' is important as you are implying. And you're gonna have to keep people straight as well, because I NEVER said anything about breed standard. What I think is minimally important is health clearances and temperament.

And I will go on to say I know nothing about you, so none of this implies to your in particular or anyone on here. In general I just don't agree with the thinking of "Well, if she hadn't have bred I wouldn't have XXXXX hence the breeding was ok." I could go out tomorrow and by an absolutley wonderful dog whose parents were not healthy and just because I love the dog doesn't mean the decision to breed the parents was a good one. Granted this is where some people may argue, but it is my opinion. But this doesn't mean the dog is a disservice to the breed, but rather, the breeder is. The dog is wonderful, as most are regardless of heritage.

Anyway, that was the only point I was trying to make. Anything else you get your reading too much into it (and perhaps I was reading too much into your post).


----------



## momtoMax

GoldenSail said:


> I don't understand what you mean by MY black and white view, as I made one post and it did not even come close to reflect my feelings on the subject.
> 
> My point was just because something good comes of something (a child) does not mean the path taken there is correct. (Sorry about the analogy, I do not equate it to adultery, but I do think the basic idea again is that not all good things are borne of good decisions). A poor choice does not always mean poor consequences, IMO. And no, for the record I do not think AKC 'papered' is important as you are implying. And you're gonna have to keep people straight as well, because I NEVER said anything about breed standard. What I think is minimally important is health clearances and temperament.
> 
> And I will go on to say I know nothing about you, so none of this implies to your in particular or anyone on here. In general I just don't agree with the thinking of "Well, if she hadn't have bred I wouldn't have XXXXX hence the breeding was ok." I could go out tomorrow and by an absolutley wonderful dog whose parents were not healthy and just because I love the dog doesn't mean the decision to breed the parents was a good one. Granted this is where some people may argue, but it is my opinion. But this doesn't mean the dog is a disservice to the breed, but rather, the breeder is. The dog is wonderful, as most are regardless of heritage.
> 
> Anyway, that was the only point I was trying to make. Anything else you get your reading too much into it (and perhaps I was reading too much into your post).


As I was responding to the question why would they ever breed this OPs parents to her puppy as it was mismarked? and to the statement that breeding for temperment is a disservice to the breed, even just once - I assumed you were responding to my post about where I stand on that and your analogy was based upon either of those statements.

I so agree there are some terrible BYB - there is one that lives on the corner. Her golden was a wee baby last year and at the beginning of this school year she's crossing her fingers she's pregger and is planning on selling her puppies because "they are purebreds" they will get a lot of money. I wouldn't dream of buying one of her puppies and I feel bad for the mom and dad doggies too - she'll probably breed her everytime she's in heat. There are also some bad AKC paper toting breeders.

My point is there are also breeders who breed responsibly like Max's breeders for things like temperment rather than the puppies can be AKC registered. I don't feel that Max's breeders are a problem and I think Red Bear is not a disservice to the breed nor is his son based solely on the fact that they are not registered.


----------



## tippykayak

All dogs deserve the best possible shot at long-term health, and you don't get that when you don't do all the clearances and when you aren't able to look at multi-generational soundness and temperament. Supporting BYBs who go on a dog's general health rather than on the hard data of joint and heart evaluation is simply irresponsible and all dogs (especially Golden Retrievers, of course) deserve better from us. It's also irresponsible to rely on a dog who _looks_ sound at middle age as evidence that he has great joints or that his heart is good. 

It's not snooty or arbitrary to insist on papers that allow a multigenerational look at a breeding or on clearances that help maximize longterm health. An AKC registered dog isn't "better" than a BYB dog from unregistered parents, but a carefully bred dog, a dog bred with all the available information, has a better shot at health.

Yeah, you can luck out with a dog that wasn't carefully bred, but I bet those on the forum whose dogs have had painful joint problems and invasive surgeries aren't so cavalier about the value of a clearance or of knowing that several generations of a dog's vertical pedigree were all cleared.

None of this means that a particular BYB dog isn't as great a dog as the fanciest bred show dog. It simply speaks to the kinds of breedings we should support with our money and the responsibility we have not to encourage people to breed dogs with anything but the best possible shot at a long, happy, healthy life.


----------



## Pointgold

momtoMax said:


> My point is there are also breeders who breed responsibly like Max's breeders for things like temperment rather than the puppies can be AKC registered. I don't feel that Max's breeders are a problem and I think Red Bear is not a disservice to the breed nor is his son based solely on the fact that they are not registered.


I cannot agree that Max's breeders breed responsibly simply because they bred for temperament. Being registered or not is not the point. It _is _a disservice to the breed to breed without health clearances, and to breed dogs that you know do not meet the standard. If that were the prevailing attitude, the breeds would be lost. 

All that said, it does NOT mean that Max is not a wonderful pet. It does mean that his breeders are risking far more than they realize by indiscriminantly producing litters.


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## peeps

I think that when someone makes the decision to produce a litter of puppies and actually markets and sells them as Golden Retrievers(or any breed)then that person has a duty and responsability to uphold and breed to the standard of the dogs they are reproducing. Not to take away from your puppy at all but this is a Golden Retriever forum where there are people passionate about the "Golden Retriever" breed - it takes alot of hard work, comittment to the standard, research and dedication to breed raise and whelp a litter of puppies when you are doing it the right way - no one wants to see the world of purebred dogs reduced/diluted by mixed breeds - it's why we love them so much they are a representation of the breed and that includes - the color and coat. Anyway I think we are all going in circles now but wanted to add my 2 cents 

ps - I have nothing against mixed breeds by the way ~ these dogs are hopefully all loved pets- my opinion is of the marketing and reproduction of a puppy/dog that isn't what it is sold as.


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## dogluver04

I have to say, other than the white, she looks like a Golden to me.. especially in your last photo on page 8.. she has the same expression as my Cedar does..


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## peeps

ps - love the boat shot too !!


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## Pointgold

momtoMax said:


> I read this entire posting, at a year old - your golden is very cute! I am just going to backtrack to address some of the comments like, why breed him if he isn't in the standards? or people who breed for temperment are doing a disservice to the breed.
> 
> The breeder we got Max from also bred for Red Bears temperment even though he wasn't registered. His mother was. If they hadn't then Max wouldn't be here and anyone who feels Max or your pet are disservices to the breed have their metaphorical heads up their butts IMO. Being registered doesn't mean healthy friendly amazing within all standards golden and not being registered doesn't mean that golden can't be all those things. I am so grateful for people like Max's breeders and yours- and if your baby and the other babies of that litter grew up to be great dogs, I, for one, am glad that they continued and had another litter.


Question - How old is the first litter out of his mother and father? Even if they skipped a season prior to repeating the breeding, that would mean that the puppies from the first litter would hardly be old enough to know if there were any genetic health issues (unless severe) such as hip/elbow dysplasia, eye problems, etc. Not many people who purchase unregistered or mixed breed dogs get clearances done on their puppies, so, that would mean that the repeat breeding would be made, of two dogs without health clearances, and more puppies with genetic problems could well be reproduced. It is well known that these genetic problems can be passed along without even knowing they are there (without clearances) because many dogs can be asymptomatic. Max, I believe, is around 6 months old. He is much too young to know if he has dysplasia, eye problems, cardiac issues, or thyroid disease, and I hope that he never does. I truly do.

Breed standards and appearance aside for the moment, dogs with the sweetest, soundest temperaments are not exempt from hip or elbow dysplasia, cataracts, SAS, or thyroid disease, AKC "papered" or not. All we can do is test like crazy in order to decrease the chances of producing those problems so that nice families who bought a sweet, cute dog with a sound temperament don't have to go through the heartache and expense of treating any of those issues, or worse, not having a choice TO treat.


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## fostermom

momtoMax said:


> Only responding to this one as it's the only one that I can see. Look, you are welcome to do the AKC thing/standard fitting/redefining the breed thing - I have no problem with that and if there weren't people doing that, we wouldn't have a well defined golden. I however think that by deciding that it's best not to breed a golden just because it's not AKC registered makes it not fit to breed. I very much disagree. My Max came from a healthy dad and mom- the only issues with dad is that he's too big for the standard and didn't have registration papers. On the plus, great health/elbows/hips, beautiful, phenomental disposition - gee, all the things a golden is supposed to be. For someone to say that he should not be bred just because he doesn't have his AKC paper - I think that's anal and wrong. Not every golden should be bred, I agree. Joint issues, seizure disorders, bad dispositions, etc etc are all good reasons not to breed a dog - lack of a piece of paper is not.


I think that you are taking things entirely too personally. You love Max and why not? He is your dog and he's adorable.

I happen to love my Danny, too. His litter should have never been whelped. He was born with two heart defects, both of which are genetic. He has the sweetest temperament I have ever come across in a dog. But that doesn't mean that the breeder (BYB) should have ever bred the parents. What he did was wrong. No clearances, I can guarantee. I don't take offense when people say that breeding without clearances is bad. I *know* it's bad. They aren't saying that my dog(s) are bad dogs, just not well bred dogs. And I already knew that. Oh, Danny had his AKC papers.

Breeding to just produce puppies is an injustice to the breed. I am involved in rescue and will not ever be buying a puppy because there will always be homeless goldens that need to be adopted. BUT, it would be nice if down the line the only way I could find a golden was through a reputable breeder. Unfortunately, that's never going to happen as long as the HVBs and BYB keep cranking out puppies hand over fist.


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## Pointgold

fostermom said:


> I think that you are taking things entirely too personally. You love Max and why not? He is your dog and he's adorable.
> 
> I happen to love my Danny, too. His litter should have never been whelped. He was born with two heart defects, both of which are genetic. He has the sweetest temperament I have ever come across in a dog. But that doesn't mean that the breeder (BYB) should have ever bred the parents. What he did was wrong. No clearances, I can guarantee. I don't take offense when people say that breeding without clearances is bad. I *know* it's bad. They aren't saying that my dog(s) are bad dogs, just not well bred dogs. And I already knew that. Oh, Danny had his AKC papers.
> 
> Breeding to just produce puppies is an injustice to the breed. I am involved in rescue and will not ever be buying a puppy because there will always be homeless goldens that need to be adopted. BUT, it would be nice if down the line the only way I could find a golden was through a reputable breeder. Unfortunately, that's never going to happen as long as the HVBs and BYB keep cranking out puppies hand over fist.


 
Thank you for this post. People who do rescue would LOVE to be put out of business. 
It is also important to note that reputable, responsible breeders also work hard to help support rescue in a myriad of ways.


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## Blaireli

Bella is a beautiful girl, mis-marked and all!


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## Pointgold

Blaireli said:


> Bella is a beautiful girl, mis-marked and all!


Without question.


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## Susan6953

The type of markings Bella and her dad have is called piebaldism and occurs as a new mutation in many species. People who have a (natural) white forelock exhibit piebaldism. It's hard to tell from the photo whether Bella's dad is purebred but the white markings could have occured as a new mutation in a purebred golden and then been passed on to Bella.

To me there is a difference between being purebred and meeting the breed standard. Jamie is purebred in that both of his parents were goldens even though he is probably too short for the breed standard. If someone decided to try to breed smaller goldens I imagine at some point they would no longer be considered "purebred goldens" but I don't know when that would occur and who decides.


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## K9-Design

Susan6953 said:


> The type of markings Bella and her dad have is called piebaldism and occurs as a new mutation in many species. People who have a (natural) white forelock exhibit piebaldism. It's hard to tell from the photo whether Bella's dad is purebred but the white markings could have occured as a new mutation in a purebred golden and then been passed on to Bella.


No, sorry, this is not "piebaldism." It's a dog carrying a recessive allele or two on the S locus that causes white spotting in dogs. 
These dogs are displaying very classic white markings programmed by recessive alleles on the S locus. 
"Piebald" is not a term regularly used with dogs, it is used to describe either a dog with extreme white spotting (more recessive than limited white or Irish/collie white pattern), examples would be tricolor cockers or piebald Am Staffs, or it is used to describe "double dapple" (homozygous dominant merle) dachshunds. 
The white spotting shown in these dogs is most assuredly NOT a mutation. Well, statistically it is possible that a golden retriever (most goldens are SS at the S locus -- dominant solid) could have spontaneously mutated to one of the recessive alleles on the S locus ------ but then you'd have to breed that one to it's offspring that also had that allele, and so on --- a dedicated process to achieve this within a purebred golden population. What is more likely, ESPECIALLY since "dad" is NOT registered (questionable heritage)....he is a mix, or one of his parents were.


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## redhare

Pointgold said:


> How about a Goldenese Mountain Retriever? I will be boarding a (new) champion male Berner, and I have a BISS, US pt'd Golden who will be in season while he is with me... The puppies would be _soooo _cute, and they'd have great temperaments.


My neighbors have a Golden/Bernese mix. The place where they got her calls them "Golden Mountain Dogs". Here's a link to an info site (yeah, the site's full o' "designer" mixes, but scroll down and one looks like the coloring of Bella) http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/goldenmountaindog.htm

Neighbor's dog is beautiful, color of a new penny, but other litters look more like Berners. Very sweet dog, too!


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## annef

I have once seen a golden looking like this KC registered and pure bred. He was UK working bred. Annef


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## Pointgold

Registering mixed breed dogs is possible, although not ethical. As an example, on this forum, some time ago, a person posted pictures of a puppy that was sold to her as a purebred Golden, with AKC papers. It was clearly a Labrador mix. The breeder also had Labradors and eventually fessed up that a male Lab had also bred the dam of the litter. 
Another nifty tactic is to apply for litter registration for more puppies than are in the litter, and use those papers to register other dogs.


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## Susan6953

According to the article I read on canine coat genetics s(i) is called Irish spotting, s(p) piebaldism, and s(w) extreme piebaldism. It would not be correct to call a double merle "piebald" since a different locus altogether is involved in merle.

The mom could have been Ss and if the dad was ss you could get an ss pup. I suppose statistically it is more likely dad was a mixed breed since unlike in humans any color variations in goldens are rigorously weeded out.


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## Pointgold

*From the Merck Veterinary Manual*

(just a little information to support, in part, why it is not a great idea to hope that mismarked dogs might someday be "recognized"...)



Many associations between skin and coat color and developmental anomalies have been recorded in domestic animals. Some of the associations with hypotrichosis are discussed under hereditary alopecia.
*Albinism* appears to be rare in domestic animals. True albinism is always associated with pink or pale irises and with visual defects and increased risk of solar radiation-induced neoplasms of the skin. It has been noted in Icelandic sheep and in Guernsey, Austrian Murboden, Shorthorn, Brown Swiss, and Charolais cattle. Albinism must be differentiated from extreme white spotting or piebaldism and dominant white. Some animals with extreme piebaldism or dominant white have associated neurologic anomalies, deafness, or suffer death in utero. Lethal white foal syndrome is one that results from breeding 2 Overo Paints. In both dogs and cats, dominant white or piebaldism can be associated with unilateral or bilateral deafness, and sometimes with blue irides or iris heterochromia. White cats with bilateral blue eyes have a 75% chance of deafness. In dogs, deafness may also be associated with merle hair coats and is found in Dalmatians, Sealyham Terriers, harlequin Great Danes, Collies, and white Bull Terriers. Cyclic neutropenia may be found in gray or pale merle Collies. In Rhodesian Ridgebacks, pale coat color is associated with cerebellar degeneration. In Chédiak-Higashi syndrome of cats and cattle (Herefords, Japanese Black, Brangus), coat color dilution ( blue smoke in cats) is associated with neutrophil and platelet abnormalities and shortened life span. This is inherited as an autosomal recessive trait. Male tricolor cats (calico and tortoiseshell) are sterile because the gene for orange is X-linked and recessive, and males have the abnormal XXY genotype. _


















































































































































































































Vitiligo, Golden Retriever 





























_Pigmentary abnormalities may be acquired, and some of these may be hereditary or familial as in *vitiligo*. As a familial disease, vitiligo is best recognized in Arabian horses (Arabian fading syndrome, pinky syndrome); it may also be familial in cattle (Holstein-Friesian), Siamese cats, and in some breeds of dogs (Belgian Tervuren, Rottweiler).Affected animals develop somewhat symmetric macular depigmentation of the skin that occasionally also affects the hair coat and claws or hooves. The onset is usually in young adulthood. Most lesions are on the face, especially the muzzle or planum nasale or around the eyes. Depigmentation may wax and wane. Complete remission may occur but is rare. There is no accompanying systemic or cutaneous pathology. No treatment is available; treatments used in people with vitiligo are unlikely to provide significant cosmetic results in animals.


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## K9-Design

Susan6953 said:


> According to the article I read on canine coat genetics s(i) is called Irish spotting, s(p) piebaldism, and s(w) extreme piebaldism. It would not be correct to call a double merle "piebald" since a different locus altogether is involved in merle.


You are correct, but the names of what those alleles are called are colloquialisms, they vary depending on who you talk to. I personally do not call the alleles at the recessive end of the spectrum "piebald" but someone else certainly could. 
Dachshund breeders DO call double dapples "piebald" as the double "MM" merle dachshunds usually show a fair amount of white in a random, piebald pattern. But you are right, the S locus for white spotting has nothing to do with the M merle locus.



> The mom could have been Ss and if the dad was ss you could get an ss pup. I suppose statistically it is more likely dad was a mixed breed since unlike in humans any color variations in goldens are rigorously weeded out.


Exactly. Yes, it could happen, but as one of my favorite quotes alludes to....

"If you hear hoofbeats, look for horses, not zebras."


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## BonnieM

I'm sorry I can't answer your question, but I just wanted to say that is an adorable puppy. Enjoy!


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## hoop4321

We have a mismarked golden named Libby. After looking at some of the top breeders in Florida, trying to decide which to choose, a friend suggested a golden rescue. Libby and her litter-mates were all donated to the rescue, and she was the last to be picked. At first, i was uninterested. It sounds so cruel now, but my son's dream dog was a golden, and I wanted him to have what he envisioned. All of us liked the idea of saving a life, rather than creating a demand for a new life. I did research, asked around, from vet's to breeders, and most referred to the ST Johns dog. Basically, the ST Johns dog bloodline flows through most of the North America retriever families...labs, goldens, etc. Typically, you will see mismarks in the field lines, and the pups are rare, one pup out of 8 to 10 litters. These pups are all lighter than their litter mates, and they have the markings of the ST Johns dog. What started out as something that I was not interested in turns out to be charming to me. It is cool to see grandparents markings from many, many years past come out in her. I asked our vet, who has had goldens all his life, if we should do a DNA test, and he did not recommend it. He said, "I can take your money and do the test if it will give you piece of mind, but she is full golden. Said how he sees this in more labs than goldens, but as they share the ancestry of the ST Johns dog, you are going to see it from time to time." When you look at the Golden Retriever show guide lines, it specifically mentions mismarks, and the deduction of points for every mark. Having judged and breed cattle, I do understand that what we see as a "standard" is actually the least amount of imperfections of the animal. No animal achieves perfection, there is always something that is a little off. The down side to having one of these dogs ( and this is not targeted at anyone on these boards that disagrees with me) is the people who walk up, ask what kind of mix is she, and then insist that she is not a golden...like i am trying to pull one over on them. Or to a certain cashier a Petsmart, who is so sure she is a toller. Honestly, it would be easier just to SAY she was a toller just to go about our business. However, anyone who has had a golden, will walk up and say "i have never seen a golden with white markings before." I understand the breeding for breed standard. Ultimately, the goal is for a healthier animal, and not the look, but the look does affect the character. I do not think that breeding a mismarked golden is good for the golden line. I do think they should not be killed, but to be placed in homes that will spay/neuter them. She is wonderful, loving and every day a joy. When over 4 million animals a year are euthanized, we need to rethink the right to breed because it is a good dog. 

Some pics of our libby and the ST Johns dog.

St Johns Dog...Nell 1856


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## AquaClaraCanines

I don't think she is a Golden, but only because of the ears and over all look of her (though I do know some pure Goldens have ears like this). However, I do think she is GORGEOUS and she looks like she has a VERY cool life!!!


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## hoop4321

are you referring to Libby?? What is wrong with her ears?? LOL


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## AquaClaraCanines

They stand partly upright  Which is adorable. Have you seen missmarstar's Sammy? He has the same ears, and he is a full Golden.


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## hoop4321

no they actually don't. That is my attempt to get a good shot. I never get the adoring i love you so much shots...i get the mom.....i am doing something, and your whistling is getting on my nerves...stop it shots. The first pic of her, her ears lie down.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Either way she is cute as a button. My dogs are jealous of her boat!


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## rosemary

wouldnt care less personally they are all stunning


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## Pointgold

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I don't think she is a Golden, but only because of the ears and over all look of her (though I do know some pure Goldens have ears like this). However, I do think she is GORGEOUS and she looks like she has a VERY cool life!!!


 
She _is _very cute, and definately has a great life. I cannot agree, though, that she is a purebred Golden (not that it really matters - she is deservedly well loved - but accuracy is important), not only because of the ears, but the markings. The history of the Golden does mention the importance of the St John's dog influence 
http://www.grca.org/history_breed/ancestors.html but the likelihood that these markings appearing in today's Goldens is exceedingly slim, as would be black dogs. 

Our standard also does not mention the degrees to which faults are marked down.


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## Susan6953

It seems to me it is possible the markings are a result of a mutation in a purebred golden.


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## tippykayak

Susan6953 said:


> It seems to me it is possible the markings are a result of a mutation in a purebred golden.


Was it K-9 Design who said when you hear hoofbeats, look for a horse, not a zebra? The father has more extensive mismarks than any papered Golden any of us have ever seen, and the dog doesn't quite have the standard head, ear, and body proportions.

The most likely explanation is that there is another breed somewhere in the father's recent ancestry.

Is it impossible that both the marks and the other variations are the results of mutations in a pure Golden? Sure. It's _vastly_ more likely that there's simply another breed in there.


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## hoop4321

Pointgold said:


> She _is _very cute, and definately has a great life. I cannot agree, though, that she is a purebred Golden (not that it really matters - she is deservedly well loved - but accuracy is important), not only because of the ears, but the markings. The history of the Golden does mention the importance of the St John's dog influence
> http://www.grca.org/history_breed/ancestors.html but the likelihood that these markings appearing in today's Goldens is exceedingly slim, as would be black dogs.
> 
> Our standard also does not mention the degrees to which faults are marked down.


I am posting some pics found online after i googled ideal golden retriever. Her ears are the same. That you find the likelihood slim that she or others could inherit the marks of the ST Johns dog contradicts my vet, who is 2 years from retiring, and has owned goldens all his life. Libby is not his first patient that carries these marks, he has seen this before. He did remark that she was not show quality, but we did not show our Lhasa and are uninterested in showing. I have also included a pic of a pure bred lab from England, who looks like the ST Johns dog of 1856.









ideal goldens



























One of the founders of the breed










You can google the history of golden retrievers and the ST Johns dog is mentioned in all most all of the histories. If Libby's marks were anywhere else...i would question her heritage. Her marks are where they are "supposed to be" if she were mismarked. Breeders who show are undoubtedly working to breed out the mismarks, but in the field lines they don't seem to have the same drive to breed this out. When we asked some breeders about the probability of mismarked goldens, a few said that they should be put down. The likelihood is that they are still being produced, but you don't see it as they kill or get rid of the pup so they can get top dollar for the rest of the litter. What is sickening is the thought of an innocent puppy, being put to death for a few white marks.


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## Jo Ellen

That you heard that kind of talk (putting down mismarked goldens) from breeders is disheartening, to say the least. I'm very upset to read this.


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## tippykayak

hoop4321 said:


> What is sickening is the thought of an innocent puppy, being put to death for a few white marks.


That's just insane. Mismarked dogs aren't good breeding stock for a show program, but aside from that, they have no physical or mental disadvantages that prevent them from competing in sports or being great pets.


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## hoop4321

tippykayak said:


> That's just insane. Mismarked dogs aren't good breeding stock for a show program, but aside from that, they have no physical or mental disadvantages that prevent them from competing in sports or being great pets.


well said, could not agree with you more.


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## AquaClaraCanines

I agree, no one would suggest putting down a mismark! That is sick, and insane!

You could not get a black Golden Retriever. It is genetically impossible. Black is dominant, and one parent must be black. This is why two yellow Labs can NEVER have a black puppy. 

Yellow is recessive, so there are occasional yellow Labs born to black parents, or even to Flat-Coated Retrievers.


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## Ljilly28

That is an adorable dog, but not a golden retriever. Jenna is right about the ears. I think she is a herding dog mix- maybe some shepherd? It would be interesting to test her DNA just to know.


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## Selli-Belle

The point about Libby's ears is not just that they have a bit of stand up to them, but that they are also set differently. The are set more toward the front of her head, like a Sheltie or a Collie, rather than sitting on the side of her head like a retriever.

I have a Sheltie/Golden mix and my family has had two Collie/Golden mixes. We love the mix.


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## Susan6953

I think what is being alluded to is that a mismarked puppy might be destroyed at birth by a breeder because the knowledge that one puppy in the litter is mismarked could lower the value of the other pups in the litter and of future litters from the same parents. It might indicate that both the parents contained a recessive gene for spotting so while they were pure golden in color some of their offspring would have two copies of the recessive gene and would be spotted.

I am not saying anyone on the forum would do that but there are all kinds of breeders.

Canine coat genetics is very interesting.


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## hoop4321

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I agree, no one would suggest putting down a mismark! That is sick, and insane!
> 
> You could not get a black Golden Retriever. It is genetically impossible. Black is dominant, and one parent must be black. This is why two yellow Labs can NEVER have a black puppy.
> 
> Yellow is recessive, so there are occasional yellow Labs born to black parents, or even to Flat-Coated Retrievers.


 
are you saying that no one said that? Or are you saying it is insane that it would ever occur to them? I assure you, it was said, inferred, and stammered upon. There are those breeders who have insisted that there are no such thing or has been such a thing as a mismark - so do they not know the history of the breed, or are they just saying anything to sell a puppy....no thank you.
There were others that had heard of mismarks...but never in their stock.
Then there were 2 to knowing of breeders who felt that this was a flaw of the breed and should be removed from the blood line like the white german shepherds. To us, the best breeder we met was actually a breeder of Brittanys, who said that any breeder that was truly reputable would be heavily involved with the breeds rescue. We would have loved to have chosen her, but the Brittany was not a fit for our family.

You can look at pictures and proclaim she is or isn't forever in a day. I trust my vet and his opinion. What we wanted was a dog that would be healthy. We set aside $2500 for a pup, and looked 2 years at different dogs and breeders. To me, there is no interest in promoting her as something she is, if she isn't. If she turns out to be dysplastic, then we will be able to afford to replace what ever she needs. What I hated was the pet warranty on most breeders. Bring the dog back if they are found defective....seriously. When asked what they do with the dogs, most say they would be destroyed. Then the clauses....some are way over the top. I find it difficult to believe that ridiculous clauses exist, but if the dog is dysplastic, it would be destroyed. We left the puppy search a little bewildered. There are many breeders out there who say they are in for the betterment of the breed, but when it comes to it, it is a fanatical approach for the breed, not the individual lives they create. Off my soap box (it was a trying 2 years), off to play with my baby girl.


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## missmarstar

AquaClaraCanines said:


> They stand partly upright  Which is adorable. Have you seen missmarstar's Sammy? He has the same ears, and he is a full Golden.



Nothing wrong with perky ears, though they are very unusual in Goldens.. I have only seen one other Golden with these ears and it was a rescue listing so who knows if it was even purebred. Honestly if my dog had his perky ears AND white markings, I'd probably be more inclined to think he was a mix somewhere along the lines.

Sammy is purebred and neither his parents or his littermate sister that my friend has have these perky ears. Sammy's didn't start out like that either.. he went from:










then at some point around 5 months old, they developed an extra fold and now perk up like this:











I know this is offtopic from the white markings.. I apologize!


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## Susan6953

She is darling and I love all the pink accessories. They make her look so feminine.


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## Tahnee GR

In over 30 years of showing and breeding Goldens, and being asked to look at lots of litters, I have never heard of a breeder putting down "mismarks" in the Golden breed. I once saw an old field bred litter with as much white as I have ever seen on any goldens before or since-no one suggested that those puppies be put down, only commented that the amount of white they had was a fault. 

Color genetics in Goldens is very interesting-Anney's article was great. I am also fascinated by the black spotting that can occur, and was described in the same GRCA News. Never all black Goldens, but I do remember one that was spotted like a Holstein  The only litter of all black "Goldens" that I was asked to look at belonged to a lady who happened to have an intact Black Lab living next door to her  She was unaware that more than one dog can sire a litter.

And I have said many, many times on this forum and in private-"breeders" who require the return of a puppy in order to make good on a contract/warranty/guarantee are NOT reputable breeders. They are banking on the fact that most families will fall in love with their puppy and not be able to return it. None of the breeders I know who have warranties/guarantees have contracts like that. What would I do with an 18-month old ripped from a loving family because of bad hips? My contract, and those of most of the breeders I know, call for a replacement without requiring the return of the original dog or, under certain circumstances, a refund.


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## Pointgold

hoop4321 said:


> are you saying that no one said that? Or are you saying it is insane that it would ever occur to them? I assure you, it was said, inferred, and stammered upon. There are those breeders who have insisted that there are no such thing or has been such a thing as a mismark - so do they not know the history of the breed, or are they just saying anything to sell a puppy....no thank you.
> There were others that had heard of mismarks...but never in their stock.
> Then there were 2 to knowing of breeders who felt that this was a flaw of the breed and should be removed from the blood line like the white german shepherds. To us, the best breeder we met was actually a breeder of Brittanys, who said that any breeder that was truly reputable would be heavily involved with the breeds rescue. We would have loved to have chosen her, but the Brittany was not a fit for our family.
> 
> You can look at pictures and proclaim she is or isn't forever in a day. I trust my vet and his opinion. What we wanted was a dog that would be healthy. We set aside $2500 for a pup, and looked 2 years at different dogs and breeders. To me, there is no interest in promoting her as something she is, if she isn't. If she turns out to be dysplastic, then we will be able to afford to replace what ever she needs. What I hated was the pet warranty on most breeders. Bring the dog back if they are found defective....seriously. When asked what they do with the dogs, most say they would be destroyed. Then the clauses....some are way over the top. I find it difficult to believe that ridiculous clauses exist, but if the dog is dysplastic, it would be destroyed. We left the puppy search a little bewildered. There are many breeders out there who say they are in for the betterment of the breed, but when it comes to it, it is a fanatical approach for the breed, not the individual lives they create. Off my soap box (it was a trying 2 years), off to play with my baby girl.


 
She's cute. I'm glad that you trust your vet, that's certainly important. 
No one here has ever suggested that any puppy be put down - culling is rarely, if ever practiced anymore, and certainly not for something purely cosmetic, and it was a practice employed mostly in other breeds - hounds and working - rather than sporting. White, in some breeds, is more than cosmetic and in fact does affect health. 

I am very familiar with the history of the Golden Retriever, and the breed as a whole. I am happy that your puppy has a wonderful, loving home, she certainly doesn't deserve any less. However, I maintain that she is not a purebred, and whatever the justification made to claim that is a stretch. I'm sorry that you were unable to find an ethical, responsible breeder, with a good health warranty that did NOT include returning a dog if there were any genetic disease - there are many, many, many out there. And maintaining/improving the breed for us means _not _perpetuating "flaws" that are considered to be faults as dictated by the standard, and keeping health and temperament sound by doing clearances, and participating in activities that both showcase them, and allow us to gauge how we are doing.


----------



## K9-Design

hoop4321 said:


> I am posting some pics found online after i googled ideal golden retriever. Her ears are the same.


Well maybe the 5 or 6 photos you posted of your dog don't actually look anything like her -- but she has side fold or "helicopter" ears which are sometimes found but definitely NOT ideal or common in purebred goldens. That added with the white markings and the fact that she came through rescue with an unknown background, means you should not assume she is purebred. A vast majority of breeders and long time golden fanciers will tell you, she most likely is not purebred. However, you knew going into it the situation, so what does it matter? She's adorable and obviously a well loved, great pet.



> That you find the likelihood slim that she or others could inherit the marks of the ST Johns dog contradicts my vet, who is 2 years from retiring, and has owned goldens all his life. Libby is not his first patient that carries these marks, he has seen this before. He did remark that she was not show quality, but we did not show our Lhasa and are uninterested in showing. I have also included a pic of a pure bred lab from England, who looks like the ST Johns dog of 1856.


Sure these markings look the same -- just like the white markings on a Bernese Mountain Dog look the same as this, and Australian shepherds, and collies, and border collies, corgis, shelties, cocker spaniels, chihuahuas, great danes, and I could go on. Because they are an allele on the S locus that carries for limited white markings. IN EVERY SINGLE DOG. That doesn't mean the dogs are related AT ALL. Both Great Danes and Chihuahuas come in brindle but that doesn't make them related. This white coloration is a very predictable result of specific genes that code for white color in the entire species, it is not unique to the now extinct St. John's water dog. 



> If Libby's marks were anywhere else...i would question her heritage. Her marks are where they are "supposed to be" if she were mismarked.


Again -- this is because they are programmed by a recessive allele on the S locus which is common throughout the entire species of dog. It is NOT unique to the St. Johns water dog or it's descendants. 



> When we asked some breeders about the probability of mismarked goldens, a few said that they should be put down. The likelihood is that they are still being produced, but you don't see it as they kill or get rid of the pup so they can get top dollar for the rest of the litter. What is sickening is the thought of an innocent puppy, being put to death for a few white marks.


THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN -- PERIOD. I don't know what kind of breeders you were talking to, but THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN in golden retrievers, end of story. Not only do we NEVER see extensive white markings in the first place, as the original poster displayed on their puppy's sire -- but if a golden pup IS born with a small amount of white -- which is common (toes, top of head, tip of tail, chest spot, etc) -- there is NO WAY a breeder is going to cull that puppy!!!! That is crazy. 

It's great you rescued your pup and she is obviously a cute and happy puppy -- but please -- you are perpetuating a lot of things here that are not only offensive to me as an exhibitor and fancier of this great breed, but are plain old not true or a misrepresentation of facts. (color genetics)


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## Susan6953

I am confused now. What in their genetic makeup causes these pups to have a small amount of white? If they can have a small amount they almost certainly can have a large amount.

Also, there is no way you can say "This does not happen ever, period". No one can know that. Hopefully it is not common in goldens.


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## tippykayak

Susan6953 said:


> I am confused now. What in their genetic makeup causes these pups to have a small amount of white? If they can have a small amount they almost certainly can have a large amount.
> 
> Also, there is no way you can say "This does not happen ever, period". No one can know that. Hopefully it is not common in goldens.


Very little is genetically impossible. Things can be extremely improbable, though.

Doesn't this dog's look scream Border Collie/Golden mix to anybody else? Look at a liver BC and tell me that it doesn't explain the ears and the markings.


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## Pointgold

tippykayak said:


> Very little is genetically impossible. Things can be extremely improbable, though.
> 
> Doesn't this dog's look scream Border Collie/golden mix to anybody else? Look at a liver BC and tell me that it doesn't explain the ears and the markings.


Yep. My thoughts exactly. The ears, markings, "Dudley" nose and lack of pigmentation around the eyerims say Border Collie/Golden mix, as well as the size and body type.


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## K9-Design

Susan6953 said:


> I am confused now. What in their genetic makeup causes these pups to have a small amount of white? If they can have a small amount they almost certainly can have a large amount.


Because the alleles on the S locus are such that larger amounts of white are inherited from a different allele than small amounts of white. Many breeds carry for small amounts of white within the population (goldens being one of them) but do NOT have the alleles within their breed population for larger amounts of white. For example, Bernese mountain dogs ALWAYS have a white blaze, white chest, white paws, white tail tip. However they do not have full white collars, white bellies, white well up the legs, like a collie. They do not come in "color headed white" which is on the S locus as well. For this same reason goldens may have limited white markings but it is absolutely unexpected that a purebred golden would carry for extensive white markings.

Also -- small bits of white on an otherwise solid colored dog are not always genetic. In the embryo, melanocytes, the skin cells producing colored pigment, cascade down from the neural crest which runs along what eventually becomes the spine. If the melanocytes fail to fall all the way to the outermost tips of the body, for whatever reason, there will be white. This is why white markings are most common on the extremities of animals -- nose tip, tail tip, paws, chest -- areas farthest from the spine. Now the recessive alleles on the S locus PROGRAM for this arrangement, or cessation of melanocyte cascading, but it can happen spontaneously/congenitally -- usually in very very small amounts, again, white tail tip, white toes, etc. You would NOT expect this spontaneous/nongenetic phenomenon to yield a dog with significant amounts of white. And since this is a congenital and NOT genetic phenomenon, the white would NOT be passed on to the animal's offspring.


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## LibertyME

Anney I want to thank you for sharing your knowledge....the wealth of information from this board always amazes me.


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## Pointgold

Yes, thanks, Anney. Is there any way that your article can be posted here? It's a great piece, and might make things clearer for some...


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## tippykayak

I'd like to chime in a third thank-you to Anney for sharing her knowledge of color genetics. It's an area in which I am woefully understudied.


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## K9-Design

Hi guys -- I tell ya what, I may have the unedited version of my article somewhere but I'll email Sylvia and ask if she has it in PDF format. Thanks.


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## tippykayak

Sunfish said:


> The father (who is also mismarked) is also a purbreed- but not registered. The story is that he is from registered parents, all of his littermates were registered but he wasn't because of his markings.


I just wanted to put one more nail in the coffin of the idea that the father was purebred. Nothing about a puppy's being born mismarked prevents it from being registered. I say this as the owner of a registered and significantly mismarked purebred Golden. I think it's dramatically more likely that there's BC in the father's recent lineage. It's the simplest explanation that neatly fits every fact. (Occam's Razor).


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## Pointgold

People are also seeming to overlook the fact that a litter can be sired by more than one male.


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## MurphyTeller

Pointgold said:


> People are also seeming to overlook the fact that a litter can be sired by more than one male.


Which throws a whole lot of "interesting" options if SOME of those littermates were in fact registered with AKC. That the total number of puppies in the litter was different than the number of puppies on the litter application? That's ummm...creative. If some were registered a sire owner had to sign off on the breeding. 

There are multiple jeopardies here, if the sire was simply "mismarked" there was no reason for him not to also be registered. AKC does not come down on breeders for registering puppies (of any bred) with breed disqualifying faults: bites, open coats, over/under sized, markings, etc. Those dogs could even be shown in the breed ring - until they were disqualified there - they wouldn't do well (or they shouldn't). 

What AKC gets upset about (knickers in a serious twist) is falsely registering dogs known not to be purebred. What likely happened is that "Dad" popped out and the breeder said "uh-oh, the neighbor's fido got her" and just decided not to register that puppy - but unless there was DNA tests that whole litter is in question ...like I said. There's jeopardy all around.


Erica


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## Selli-Belle

Anney, Wow, you wrote that article! I find it fascinating, but boy do I get confused. 

Her is a question for you, my Duffy, who is a rescue we got when he was a young puppy was said to be a golden/collie mix (they new his parents). Since he matured at 19," we assumed it was a sheltie father rather than a collie dad. He was born with a white tip of tail, a white spot on the end of his nose and a white spot on the back of his neck. I assumed that was due to the Irish spotting gene from the sheltie side, but it is due to a limited spotting gene? 

All of the white area are far less pronounced now (he is almost four), he also has white hairs on his chest and belly, but not enough to be noticeable unless you look carefully. One really interesting thing is that the hairs that are the remnants of the spot on the back of his neck are much longer than the rest of his hair and stand straight up, like a sheltie or collie ruff.


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## Susan6953

Just because I don't agree with Anney doesn't mean I don't understand what she is saying.

You will never "see" a new mutation for piebaldism in a golden if you always assume it is the result of a non-golden parent. Remember that darling dwarf golden Caesar? They didn't exactly say but I assume he was a new mutation for achondroplastic dwarfism. (hopefully no one was breeding dwarf goldens!)


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## Pointgold

Susan6953 said:


> Just because I don't agree with Anney doesn't mean I don't understand what she is saying.
> 
> You will never "see" a new mutation for piebaldism in a golden if you always assume it is the result of a non-golden parent. Remember that darling dwarf golden Caesar? They didn't exactly say but I assume he was a new mutation for achondroplastic dwarfism. (hopefully no one was breeding dwarf goldens!)


I don't recall Caesar. Was that here on the forum? What makes you think it is a _new_ mutation for achondroplastic dwarfism? Was he proportionate or deformed? 
I am trying to understand your insistence on new mutations...


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## AquaClaraCanines

Spontaneous mutations (for example MANY conditions which affect humans, such as NF) occur all the time. They also explain why we have blue parakeets and piebald ball pythons. So, while I will not argue if the male dog in the OP is a purebred, because I have no way to know for sure, I wouldn't ever say it's impossible.


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## Susan6953

Yes, I think I ran across Caesar through the forum. He was in rescue a few months ago. If you google "dwarf golden retriever" you can see him. He is very adorable but of course you wouldn't want to breed for dwarf goldens because they would probably have tons of bone and joint problems.

I'm not insisting on new mutations. The posters with the mismarked goldens believe their dogs' parents were purebred goldens and I am just saying it is possible.


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## Pointgold

Susan6953 said:


> Yes, I think I ran across Caesar through the forum. He was in rescue a few months ago. If you google "dwarf golden retriever" you can see him. He is very adorable but of course you wouldn't want to breed for dwarf goldens because they would probably have tons of bone and joint problems.
> 
> I'm not insisting on new mutations. The posters with the mismarked goldens believe their dogs' parents were purebred goldens and I am just saying it is possible.


 

:doh: it was_ me _that posted the link to the info about Caesar (I still only sorta remember doing it...) 
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=59444&highlight=dwarf+GOlden
It is not a "new mutation". He has an identifiable condition called osteochondrodysplasias, which is autosomal recessive.

This is the most common mode of inheritance for genetic conditions in dogs. To be affected, the animal must inherit 2 copies of the gene (genotype pp), 1 from each parent. Dogs with the genotype PP (normal) or Pp (carrier) will be clinically normal but the carrier will pass the affected gene to approximately half the offspring. As long as carriers (Pp) are mated to normal animals (PP), the offspring will be unaffected but some will remain carriers. If 2 carriers are mated, some of the offspring (approximately 25%) will be affected


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## AquaClaraCanines

Hmmm, random white markings that just seem impossible...

This mutation here is my pride and joy! Miss Elizabeth!


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## Susan6953

I'm not a big snake fan but that is a neat snake. I find it fascinating that many of the same pigmentation variations occur across so many species.


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## Tahnee GR

Okay-I'm good with pictures of snakes, as I do think they can be quite beautiful but if anyone starts posting pictures of spiders, I'm outta here!


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## Pointgold

I believe that this is considered a "morph", which is the result of purposeful genetic manipulation. Not the same as what we are seeing in these dogs that are being called "mismarked."

http://pet-snakes.com/understanding-genetics-pet-snakes


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## AquaClaraCanines

Yes it is a morph, but ALL the morphs come from random mutations. The first piebalds people had were African imports- wild caught. Same with Albino and all the rest.

That particular morph (pied) is recessive. Others, such as Pastel, are dominant.


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## paula bedard

This has been one of the most interesting and informative threads that I've read. Keep it up! More pics would be nice too...


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## AquaClaraCanines

I just took some! Imagine a breeder's (of ball pythons) surprise when a morph randomly shows up. Sometimes someone hatches out a totally NEW one that has never before been seen. Spontaneous? Or pure luck of accidentally matching up two recessives? Who knows.

Some mutations (morphs) can combine to make additional ones. For example a pastel (normal in some ways, but brighter yellow and more blushing in the markings) bred to a "black pastel" (darker than a normal) produces a SILVER snake that is known as a pewter.

Black Pastel:










Pastel:










Pewter:










Those are all mine- in order, Booker, Stacy, and Kimberly


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## AquaClaraCanines

When I am done resizing them, I'll show you the ones I took today


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## Susan6953

Do you breed them? My sister breeds turtles but she doesn't name them because she says they aren't pets; just an interesting hobby. (she has four corgis too)


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## AquaClaraCanines

Susan6953 said:


> Do you breed them? My sister breeds turtles but she doesn't name them because she says they aren't pets; just an interesting hobby. (she has four corgis too)


Yes I do, and they are definitely pets to us. Every single one has a name and a personality, and we love them. I do have special ones, though.


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## Sunfish

I found this link to pictures of "mismarked" labs. http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/mismarks.html

Very cool snakes!


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## CaptCooke

Hi I am way late on this thread. OUR Ellie seemed to be mismarked. And we didnt know much about that concept until we got on these boards. I have attached a pic of her in her last year. We think there was some Duck Toller in her line contributing to thisl.


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## tippykayak

Tollers are so rare, then when I see extensive mismarks on the chest, back, and head that go beyond what's likely from purebred stock, I think BCs are much more of a likely dog to have been mixed in.

That said, white chest, toes, and head marks are definitely possible in purebred Goldens.


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## Loisiana

tippykayak said:


> Tollers are so rare, then when I see extensive mismarks on the chest, back, and head that go beyond what's likely from purebred stock, I think BCs are much more of a likely dog to have been mixed in.
> 
> That said, white chest, toes, and head marks are definitely possible in purebred Goldens.


I don't know, I've been surprised by the number of Tollers found in rescue. I have been contacted several times with questions about a "golden mix" and when I looked there was no doubt they had to be purebred Toller. I think I remember someone telling me there is a Toller puppy mill in Texas, leading to the larger number of Tollers in rescue than one would think. So it's probably not as big of a stretch as one would think for there to be several Toller mixes out there.


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## Swampcollie

Depending upon where you're located, Tollers can be very common. When breeds become more common they find their way into the hands of irresponsible owners and the mixes begin to appear.


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## zephyr

I love this thread, so interesting!



Sunfish said:


> I found this link to pictures of "mismarked" labs. http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/mismarks.html


WOW those are crazy! I would just have assumed some of those were rottie, etc. mixes... but I suppose the points/tips are common 'options' for differential coloring in dogs so I guess anything is possible! Fascinating stuff.



tippykayak said:


> That said, white chest, toes, and head marks are definitely possible in purebred Goldens.


Oscar has white chest markings which I think are the cutest thing... His dad has just a small white spot on his chest, but all dad's titles are field things except for his CCA (from GRCA...?) of which my limited understanding of dog titles leads me to believe that would've been a breed standard fault against him (...but I guess not a disqualification, in this case?). I am not exactly sure though!

Anyway just wanted to share a picture of Oscar's mismarkings  He had a small head spot originally, and whiter paws (you can see the head spot in the puppy picture, he was about 6 weeks old in that one), but those have since almost completely faded. His chest spots are still there though.

I am a geneticist (nerd alert) so I love this stuff, although I have no particular knowledge of dog genetics  Personally I would tend to agree that the most parsimonious/simple (genetics) explanation is that the mismarked dad has another breed mixed in there somewhere, especially since he is unregistered (although being registered itself is no 'guarantee' of lineage, as you have all pointed out). It is certainly POSSIBLE that he has a novel mutation(s) showing up... just highly unlikely, especially since those are VERY common coloration patterns in other common dog breeds that might be mixed in... even "accidentally". BUT THEY'RE ALL STILL CUTIES!


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## AquaClaraCanines

Love all the dogs!

Who is Oscar's daddy? BTW he shares my mom's B day


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## zephyr

His daddy is Tidewaters Weekend Gladiator... I think he has a lot of half-siblings out there...!!
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=89208

Oscar's birthday is ONE day after my sister's  it's a nice time for a birthday!


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## tippykayak

Loisiana said:


> I don't know, I've been surprised by the number of Tollers found in rescue. I have been contacted several times with questions about a "golden mix" and when I looked there was no doubt they had to be purebred Toller. I think I remember someone telling me there is a Toller puppy mill in Texas, leading to the larger number of Tollers in rescue than one would think. So it's probably not as big of a stretch as one would think for there to be several Toller mixes out there.


I guess it's geographical then. I've seen zero Tollers in parks and classes in CT.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Yeah you'd be hard pressed to find an actual Toller down here in the South, too, the anything that isn't a golden but has Golden'ish hair and poor pigment is often called one down here, just like any black hairy dog with drop ears is called a FCR.


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## K9-Design

Oscar is super cute! His dad's owner, owns my puppy's aunt. Gee that makes us second cousins or something doesn't it! 
White chest spot that size would be a definite MAJOR fault in the show ring.
However smaller bits are quite common in the ring and nobody cares.
Fisher has a white spot about the size of a nickle on his chest, so does his daddy Yogi. Fisher has produced plenty of white spots in fact.....here's a pic:










Well you can only see the white spot on his daughter's chest (middle dog) but you can see tongue spots on all three 

Anyways, these sort of spots are quite common, but when you start getting white muzzles, white legs, extensive white on the chest, that's above and beyond what any golden should have.
Ellie above looks VERY tollerish -- although, if she were golden/BC or collie that wouldn't surprise me either.


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## zephyr

K9-Design said:


> Oscar is super cute! His dad's owner, owns my puppy's aunt. Gee that makes us second cousins or something doesn't it!
> White chest spot that size would be a definite MAJOR fault in the show ring.
> However smaller bits are quite common in the ring and nobody cares.


Thanks! We sure think so 
Yes I guess that does make us some kind of cousins! hehe 

Yup the breeder was very up front about the potential for the chest spots, even before the litter was born, and that that was a big fault for goldens in the show ring. But we didn't mind, he's just our crazy little fluffster... I was confused though about the implications of his dad's spots for his "career", so thanks for explaining


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## BorzoiMom

CaptCooke said:


> Hi I am way late on this thread. OUR Ellie seemed to be mismarked. And we didnt know much about that concept until we got on these boards. I have attached a pic of her in her last year. We think there was some Duck Toller in her line contributing to thisl.


 Yea- that is what I am thinking too- some NSDTR. .. Very cute though...


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## Susan6953

Did anyone see the Science article on the genetics of coat variation? They have found that coat type (long, curly, etc.) is determined by just three genes. One for long hair, one for curly, and one for what they call "furnishings" which is the bushy eyebrows and mustache in some wirehaired breeds. All the various types of coat are determined by different combinations of these three genes.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I have the issue, but can't say I've read it Susan. 
For those interested: it appeared in Science, Volume 326, no. 5949, pp. 150 - 153 I should go check the shelf and read it.


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## Susan6953

I didn't read the whole thing either; just a summary in the dermatology "Journal Watch". It sounded very interesting though.


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## esSJay

CaptCooke said:


> Hi I am way late on this thread. OUR Ellie seemed to be mismarked. And we didnt know much about that concept until we got on these boards. I have attached a pic of her in her last year. We think there was some Duck Toller in her line contributing to thisl.


Ellie sure is cute, although I don't see the Toller in there. Along the lines of what Tippy said, I can see some characteristics of a Border Collie. 



Loisiana said:


> I don't know, I've been surprised by the number of Tollers found in rescue. I have been contacted several times with questions about a "golden mix" and when I looked there was no doubt they had to be purebred Toller. I think I remember someone telling me there is a Toller puppy mill in Texas, leading to the larger number of Tollers in rescue than one would think. So it's probably not as big of a stretch as one would think for there to be several Toller mixes out there.


Aside from the 4 that my aunt & uncle have (after waiting more than 2 years on a waiting list for each dog...), I have only ever seen 1 other Toller here in Ontario. It would make me quite upset to know that there is a Toller puppy mill down in Texas. If that is the case, then I guess Tollers aren't so rare down there... 

Personally I wouldn't jump to conclusions to say that most golden mixes are Tollers just because they have white patches.


----------



## Sliver

mylissyk said:


> I'm curious, why did they breed the male who is clearly not within breed standard?
> 
> Your baby is adorable.


Well not everyone cares about breed standard. I really like the look of the father's coat, i'd take one of those pups!


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## fostermom

Sliver said:


> Well not everyone cares about breed standard. I really like the look of the father's coat, i'd take one of those pups!


That's a shame. Too many people feel that way and that's how puppymills and backyard breeders keep making their money, to the detriment to the health and wellbeing of the breed.


----------



## Loisiana

esSJay said:


> Aside from the 4 that my aunt & uncle have (after waiting more than 2 years on a waiting list for each dog...), I have only ever seen 1 other Toller here in Ontario.


Wow, I have already come into contact with 6 different Tollers just at obedience trials within my area. Maybe it's because I have one breeder withing 8 hours of me (Cinnstar) and another, I'm not sure, maybe 10 hours from me (KD's). But three out of those six weren't from either of those breeders. Two were actually from Nova Scotia, and I forget where the third was from.


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## Sliver

fostermom said:


> That's a shame. Too many people feel that way and that's how puppymills and backyard breeders keep making their money, to the detriment to the health and wellbeing of the breed.


How is a little genetic diversity to the detriment of the health and wellbeing of the breed? I'm no expert but isn't that the attitude that got us the wonderful cancer, hip dysplasia, skin allergies, and cataracts that goldens are known for?


----------



## K9-Design

Sliver said:


> How is a little genetic diversity to the detriment of the health and wellbeing of the breed? I'm no expert but isn't that the attitude that got us the wonderful cancer, hip dysplasia, skin allergies, and cataracts that goldens are known for? But as long as they look pretty, that's all that matters I guess...


Actually what golden retrievers are known for are their stoic, friendly, bombproof temperaments, intelligence, retrieving ability, trainability, and oh yeah -- a GOLDEN coat. If you want a dog without cancer, HD, allergies, cataracts and with a gold and WHITE coat I would suggest perhaps an Italian greyhound, Pomeranian, or a tabby cat. 
This argument cuts both ways.


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## Sliver

K9-Design said:


> Actually what golden retrievers are known for are their stoic, friendly, bombproof temperaments, intelligence, retrieving ability, trainability, and oh yeah -- a GOLDEN coat. If you want a dog without cancer, HD, allergies, cataracts and with a gold and WHITE coat I would suggest perhaps an Italian greyhound, Pomeranian, or a tabby cat.
> This argument cuts both ways.


I haven't read the entire thread but it seems the consensus was the father isn't pure bread.

Anyways, for some people "their stoic, friendly, bombproof temperaments, intelligence, retrieving ability, trainability" is much more important than their gold coat. I'm not a lifelong golden lover just because I like the color, although it's grown on me.


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## tippykayak

Sliver said:


> I haven't read the entire thread but it seems the consensus was the father isn't pure bread.
> 
> Anyways, for some people "their stoic, friendly, bombproof temperaments, intelligence, retrieving ability, trainability" is much more important than their gold coat. I'm not a lifelong golden lover just because I like the color, although it's grown on me.


I can't speak for her, but I assume her point was that breeding is what created a dog that reliably has all the characteristics of a Golden Retriever, including the color that gives the breed its name.

By the way, there are no reliable stats (at least that I've seen) that say that mixed breed dogs are at lower overall risk for genetic conditions, including cancer.


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## mm03gn

Wow this thread sure has been interesting...haven't really read much on genetics since my days in Uni...I do have a degree in biology, but a lot of the nitty gritty details are totally escaping me!

I have a question for the "experts" on here - When we were in puppy classes, there was a fellow golden pup, who had one black ear. The parents said that he was purebred, and I was just wondering if that is possible. I know it was mentioned that 2 golden parents CANNOT under any circumstances produce a black pup. (And for some reason I knew this to be true...) but what about the random black ear? Is there an explanation? Or did those people get fed a load of B.S. from their breeder??


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## Tahnee GR

mm03gn said:


> Wow this thread sure has been interesting...haven't really read much on genetics since my days in Uni...I do have a degree in biology, but a lot of the nitty gritty details are totally escaping me!
> 
> I have a question for the "experts" on here - When we were in puppy classes, there was a fellow golden pup, who had one black ear. The parents said that he was purebred, and I was just wondering if that is possible. I know it was mentioned that 2 golden parents CANNOT under any circumstances produce a black pup. (And for some reason I knew this to be true...) but what about the random black ear? Is there an explanation? Or did those people get fed a load of B.S. from their breeder??


Rare, but entirely possible. I have seen pictures of purebred Golden puppies with black markings, including one spotted like a Hereford cow  Pictures of spotted Goldens were included in the GRCA News with the article that Anney wrote. My understanding is that it is a somatic mutation. Anney can explain it much better than I can!

In fact, I know of a BIS Golden bitch who had a small dark spot on her-as an adult, it looked more like a small smudge, if you noticed it at all


----------



## MurphyTeller

Black spots are a somatic mutation. I've never seen one that's as large as an entire ear though it's certainly possible. There's one dog on the agility circuit that has a half dollar sized black spot on his fanny - sort of looks like a heart. 

Teller has 5-6 black hairs on his hock - just enough for the occasional observation of "he's got some dirt on his leg" or "is that a tick?"
Erica


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## Pointgold

Sliver said:


> Well not everyone cares about breed standard. I really like the look of the father's coat, i'd take one of those pups!


You, unfortunately, you are 100% correct. Not everyone cares about breed standard. Key word being "cares". 
If one "cares" about the breed, one should also care about the standard. No matter the breed. Otherwise, the word "breed" can be flushed right along with the word "cares". 
Doing things right is such a bother, and so hard. :doh:


----------



## Emma&Tilly

Tahnee GR said:


> Rare, but entirely possible. I have seen pictures of purebred Golden puppies with black markings, including one spotted like a Hereford cow  Pictures of spotted Goldens were included in the GRCA News with the article that Anney wrote. My understanding is that it is a somatic mutation. Anney can explain it much better than I can!
> 
> In fact, I know of a BIS Golden bitch who had a small dark spot on her-as an adult, it looked more like a small smudge, if you noticed it at all


Not a very drastic marking but Tilly has a black spot under her ear...it is about the size of a one penny piece. I have often wondered about it...it is a very distinguishing feature!


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## Sliver

Pointgold said:


> You, unfortunately, you are 100% correct. Not everyone cares about breed standard. Key word being "cares".
> If one "cares" about the breed, one should also care about the standard. No matter the breed. Otherwise, the word "breed" can be flushed right along with the word "cares".
> Doing things right is such a bother, and so hard. :doh:


My point was there are some things more important than a perfect looking (according to someones arbitrary opinion) dog. I get that most of the people here are golden retriever nuts who are champions of the breed, breeders themselves or into dog shows where having a perfect specimen matters, etc. I get that, but like I said not everyone cares if their beloved pet doesn't get the a-ok from some strangers who came up with arbitrary guidelines on the perfect color and tone of their dog's coat. I'm sorry you find that so offensive, welcome to reality.


----------



## Pointgold

Sliver said:


> My point was there are some things more important than a perfect looking (according to someones arbitrary opinion) dog. I get that most of the people here are golden retriever nuts who are champions of the breed, breeders themselves or into dog shows where having a perfect specimen matters, etc. I get that, but like I said not everyone cares if their beloved pet doesn't get the a-ok from some strangers who came up with arbitrary guidelines on the perfect color and tone of their dog's coat. I'm sorry you find that so offensive, welcome to reality.


And if you actually knew, and understood what us "nuts" are committed to, you would actually know that A. not ONE of us is under the delusion that there is a "perfect" specimen and B. We are committed to maintaining exactly what it is that makes a Golden Retriever the beloved pet that people want in their families. The guidelines are hardly "arbitrary". Reality is that without the standards, you aren't getting a (_________).

I don't your comment offensive, but rather ill-informed.


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## Sliver

tippykayak said:


> By the way, there are no reliable stats (at least that I've seen) that say that mixed breed dogs are at lower overall risk for genetic conditions, including cancer.


Maybe not, like I said I'm no expert, but take Dalmations for example. All dalmations have a genetic disorder that causes kidney stones and gout due to not being able to metabolize uric acid. Breeders were able to replace the missing gene by cross breeding with an English Pointer about 40 years ago, but the AKC was having none of it because of their spots (which were too large or too small or something, I don't remember exactly which). So all dalmations still live with this genetic defect.

Have similar sacrifices to health and wellbeing of Golden Retrievers been made for purely aesthetic reasons? I don't know but with all the health issues Golden's have I wouldn't doubt it for a second. Breed standard favors aesthetics over health, and I fail to see how that is anything but bad for the breed.


----------



## Sliver

Pointgold said:


> And if you actually knew, and understood what us "nuts" are committed to, you would actually know that A. not ONE of us is under the delusion that there is a "perfect" specimen and B. We are committed to maintaining exactly what it is that makes a Golden Retriever the beloved pet that people want in their families. The guidelines are hardly "arbitrary". Reality is that without the standards, you aren't getting a (_________).
> 
> I don't your comment offensive, but rather ill-informed.


I didn't mean "nut" in a derogatory manner, i'm a golden nut myself. I also get that without a formal breed standard there wouldn't be a breed, that's for the breeders to worry about not me, i'm just a consumer and as a consumer aesthetics are at the very bottom of the list. And yes perhaps I am ill informed, i've disclaimed many times that I am no expert, feel free to correct me where you think I am so far off base.

(maybe the word "consumer" doesn't work so well with dogs)


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## Solas Goldens

HI.... I won't even get into the issue of breeding practices in this post, but will speak to the markings. My friend is a breeder, she has beautiful goldens that fit the breed standard to T. She did a breeding that resulted in one puppy being mismarked. This is a Full AKC Golden Retriever. Somewhere in the genetic pairing of these two dogs some recessive genes combined to produced these markings. Her solution was to not pair these two dogs again. Her reasoning was ,although it was slim the same thing would happen again, she didn't want to take the chance.
Hope this helps.


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## tippykayak

Sliver said:


> My point was there are some things more important than a perfect looking (according to someones arbitrary opinion) dog. I get that most of the people here are golden retriever nuts who are champions of the breed, breeders themselves or into dog shows where having a perfect specimen matters, etc. I get that, but like I said not everyone cares if their beloved pet doesn't get the a-ok from some strangers who came up with arbitrary guidelines on the perfect color and tone of their dog's coat. I'm sorry you find that so offensive, welcome to reality.


The guidelines aren't arbitrary at all. They're what makes a Golden Retriever a Golden Retriever. The majority of the standard is about structure and balance (i.e., health). That's hardly arbitrary; it's crucial. A bunch more of it is about temperament, which is one of the hallmarks of the breed. That's not arbitrary either. Very little of it is about the pieces that make up just the "look" of the breed.

If you mix the GR with another breed, you lose the reliability of those characteristics that have to do with health and temperament. The point of having a breed of dog is to have predictability over characteristics like health, temperament, mouth, coat, and working ability.

You've phrased your comment as if it's just an issue of coat color. Few of us care if a dog is mismarked in some way, unless it's for competition, but most of us care about our dogs' biddability and working ability (whether we compete or not), and all of us care about our dogs' health.

We're not talking about random strangers who came up with arcane guidelines that are only of interest to fanciers and conformation nuts. We're talking about predictability of soundness and temperament.


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## tippykayak

Sliver said:


> Maybe not, like I said I'm no expert, but take Dalmations for example. All dalmations have a genetic disorder that causes kidney stones and gout due to not being able to metabolize uric acid. Breeders were able to replace the missing gene by cross breeding with an English Pointer about 40 years ago, but the AKC was having none of it because of their spots (which were too large or too small or something, I don't remember exactly which). So all dalmations still live with this genetic defect.
> 
> Have similar sacrifices to health and wellbeing of Golden Retrievers been made for purely aesthetic reasons? I don't know but with all the health issues Golden's have I wouldn't doubt it for a second. Breed standard favors aesthetics over health, and I fail to see how that is anything but bad for the breed.


Apples and oranges. There are no known health conditions in Goldens that are purely tied to coat color. Breed standard is _about_ health primarily, not an arbitrary set of characteristics that are favored _over_ health. A mismarked but well-structured dog is obviously preferable over a dog with correct coat and malformed joints, but structure is the heart of the standard and color doesn't supersede health.

Also, I don't believe you have the full Dalmatian story correct, but I don't feel like doing any research on it today.


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## K9-Design

Sliver said:


> Maybe not, like I said I'm no expert, but take Dalmations for example. All dalmations have a genetic disorder that causes kidney stones and gout due to not being able to metabolize uric acid. Breeders were able to replace the missing gene by cross breeding with an English Pointer about 40 years ago, but the AKC was having none of it because of their spots (which were too large or too small or something, I don't remember exactly which). So all dalmations still live with this genetic defect.


Actually, LUA (low uric acid) dalmati*A*ns are not recognized by AKC because they are technically mixed breeds. You cannot cross a golden with a chow and ask AKC to register it because it "looks" like a golden. AKC's stance has NOTHING to do with what the LUA dals spots look like! AKC could care less what a dog looks like, they are only there to catalog the authenticity of a breed's purebred status. 
Now whether or not you agree with AKC about LUA dals is up for debate -- personally I think it was a very smart move by the dal breeders, and if we golden breeders could cure hemangiosarcoma in 3 generations by outcrossing to a lab or two, I'd be a huge proponent of it! But I would not expect AKC OR every single golden breeder to agree to it.



> Have similar sacrifices to health and wellbeing of Golden Retrievers been made for purely aesthetic reasons? I don't know but with all the health issues Golden's have I wouldn't doubt it for a second. Breed standard favors aesthetics over health, and I fail to see how that is anything but bad for the breed.


This is true for EVERY breed. EVERY one. It is also true for mixed breeds. It's human nature. We can LOOK at a dog and make a judgement on its looks, but only recently have we had reliable ways to measure genetic health. In that time we have come a LONG way. 
And you know what? It's those responsible breeders working so hard keeping the proper aesthetics (***and working ability***) who are ALSO the biggest champions of genetic health! They go hand in hand in a good breeding program.

As evidence, incidence of hip dysplasia in show stock goldens has plummeted in the decades since OFA became standard practice. However, in the pet population of goldens where breeders do NOT clear their dogs' hips through OFA, HD is rampant.


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## Pointgold

Sliver said:


> Maybe not, like I said I'm no expert, but take Dalmations for example. All dalmations have a genetic disorder that causes kidney stones and gout due to not being able to metabolize uric acid. Breeders were able to replace the missing gene by cross breeding with an English Pointer about 40 years ago, but the AKC was having none of it because of their spots (which were too large or too small or something, I don't remember exactly which). So all dalmations still live with this genetic defect.
> 
> Have similar sacrifices to health and wellbeing of Golden Retrievers been made for purely aesthetic reasons? I don't know but with all the health issues Golden's have I wouldn't doubt it for a second. Breed standard favors aesthetics over health, and I fail to see how that is anything but bad for the breed.


You are referring to the Dalmatian-Pointer Backcross Project. It was undertaken using one Pointer,in 1973, in order to produce low uric acid Dalmatians, as all purebred Dals carry the recessive gene which produces high uric acid levels, causing urate crystals (kidney stones). Usually they occur in older males. The genes for the Dalmatian spotting and high uric acid level live on the same chromosome. The crossing of a male Pointer into the Dalmatian gene pool was at first agreed upon between the AKC and the DCA, but then the DCA membership later opposed it, so the AKC agreed to register only 2 backcrosses and rescinded rights to register their offspring. The spotting pattern was affected in the "patches" appeared, as well as other issues not being resolved as hoped. 


I asked my Dal pal (Highland Dalmatians) and she said it is still a hot button topic, with the DCA and AKC ultimately resolving the issue and registering descendants of the backcrossed dogs. 
An outline of the project can be found here:

http://www.dalmatianheritage.com/about/nash_research.htm


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## FeatherRiverSam

Here's a picture of what I call my two year old duck tolling golden retriever, Woody, whom I got from a rescue center in Northern California. He's got the white on the chest, head, feet and a tiny bit of white at the tip of his tail. I'd never heard of or seen a Toller before so it was all new to me. Recently he's developed a howl quite unlike the golden's rurrrrrrrrr...he's a true sweetheart. I haven't had a test done to see what lines he's got in him but from everything I've been able to research it would appear that a Toller was somewhere in his background.

WOODY












Woody with my 88yr old mother











Woody on deck











Pete


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## Susan6953

Woody is a lovely dog.

I think what the dalmation breeders did in rejecting the LUA dalmations is unconscionable. Both kidney stones and gout are extremely painful in humans so I imagine they are painful in dogs as well. To choose well defined spots over the health of the breed certainly does not reflect well on the world of dog showing.


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## Pointgold

I've spent some time talking with Cheri tonight about the LUA Dals. Interesting stuff.

I was searching to find who the Pointer was that was used, and found this: http://www.luadalmatians.com/. It is an excellent site which explains and updates the Dalmatian-Pointer Backcross Project.

From the site:
This wonderful breeding prgram is presently at the 14th generation from the original cross. The progeny have 99.98% AKC registered Dalmatians in their pedigrees and on parentage analysis, their DNA is 99.8% the same as AKC registered .

And here is the Pointer, Ch Shandown's Rapid Transit - (classic, lovely Pointer)









who was bred to the Dalmatian bitch Lady Godiva. There is no photo available.

The Project gives an idea of the committment required when attempting to "breed out" a characteristic, and conversely, to get crosses to breed true.
​


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## tippykayak

He looks like he might have quite a bit of Toller in there, and Tollers have a characteristic "scream" that sounds like what you're describing. Sounds like a good guess to me.



FeatherRiverSam said:


> Here's a picture of what I call my two year old duck tolling golden retriever, Woody, whom I got from a rescue center in Northern California. He's got the white on the chest, head, feet and a tiny bit of white at the tip of his tail. I'd never heard of or seen a Toller before so it was all new to me. Recently he's developed a howl quite unlike the golden's rurrrrrrrrr...he's a true sweetheart. I haven't had a test done to see what lines he's got in him but from everything I've been able to research it would appear that a Toller was somewhere in his background.


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## Susan6953

Yes, the project was successful from a health standpoint but apparently those dogs cannot be AKC registered dalmatians so people who want show dogs must breed HUA dogs even though many will suffer painful kidney stone problems.


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## K9-Design

Susan6953 said:


> Yes, the project was successful from a health standpoint but apparently those dogs cannot be AKC registered dalmatians so people who want show dogs must breed HUA dogs even though many will suffer painful kidney stone problems.


http://woodwynd.com/

Personal friend of mine. She breeds AKC and LUA dals. Shows the LUAs in UKC and very successful with her AKC dals.


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## Susan6953

But why would you want to breed HUA dalmations when you can breed LUAs. The reason seems to be that AKC won't recognize LUA dalmations even though they are healthier.

A while ago there was a thread about a TV station in the UK refusing to air a major dog show because of this type of issue with purebreds.


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## Pointgold

Susan6953 said:


> But why would you want to breed HUA dalmations when you can breed LUAs. The reason seems to be that AKC won't recognize LUA dalmations even though they are healthier.
> 
> A while ago there was a thread about a TV station in the UK refusing to air a major dog show because of this type of issue with purebreds.


 

There is far more to this issue.
I would suggest that you read this: http://www.luadalmatians.com/FINAL_REPORT_ON_LUA_2008.pdf 

How soon will we be able to register the dogs with AKC?​First, the DCA membership by 2/3 approval of the members voting, must agree topetition the AKC to lift the hold on the registration of Stocklore Stipples and allow her descendants to be registered. Then, AKC has to agree and remove the hold. This process has to be initiated by the DCA Board who would have to prepare a ballot and supporting materials, receive AKC approval of the ballot and enclosures, and distribute the ballot to the DCA membership. This process could be started at any time.​Can we get a good explanation of how the registration process would work?​Please see the response to question 4. We would suggest that AKC identify all Descendants of the Dalmatian Pointer cross with an asterisk or other identifying notation as part of the registration number for some number of generations (to be determined by the AKC). In that manner, breeders could decide to incorporate or not incorporate any of the Descendents into their breeding program, and be insured of the integrity of the resulting pedigree.


Thee BBC not airing Crufts is ridiculous, and based on not only ignorance, but intimidation by animal rights extremists. The same was attempted here in the US re: airing Westminster. Obviously, the attempt failed and I hope will never be successful.​


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## Susan6953

I wasn't saying I agreed with the BBC because I don't know enough about any issues with breeds except this one.

The article I read about HUA dals versus LUA dals said that the dalmation breeders don't like the LUA dals because the spots are not as sharp (or something like that) so they decided that being HUA part of being a dalmation. To me that seems like choosing to have dogs with a major health problem so that they will look a certain way. That would not be acceptable to me.


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## Charlie_2212

The Golden Retrievers with the white in question "Libby", "Abby" and others from that litter of the white socked Golden Retriever are purebred. I have a picture of his father who is deep red and know what his mother looks like (she has a tiny white fleck on her forehead). I also have the brother of Libby's dad (Saturn) who is a happy purebred.
The breeder that these dogs came from has been breeding for 45 years, guarantee's for 6 years and is a donater of guide dogs. Not to mention he uses his Golden's for field and the occasional show. He is a highly reputable breeder and has never has his dogs had hip/elbow/heart/eye/thyroid problems. He breeds for light weight dogs and not the heavy english golden's that develope arthritis and joint problems because they weight a lot. My dogs Saturn and Symbah who I also purchased from him have no health or genetic issues either. When I tell people this they insist that a mutt got into his property and bred with his dogs but that is NOT the case. I have been on his property many times and his dogs have NO other contact with foreign dogs. He wouldn't even let me bring my own Golden's that I bought from him pass a certain point to make sure his dogs are in a sterile environment. I believe that mismarking is the correct statement because white is inheritable and is more prodominant in the feild lines in which is what he breeds. Old field Golden's dating back to the TWD lines have white on their toes, chest flecks and feathers on their forehead.

The other thing I will talk about is that if you have ever heard about "Somatic Mutation" or black spot phenominon in which is a large amount of black cells that develope in the womb and is not inherited or passible to future pups. You cannot tell me that mixing breeds is to blame for the Somatic Mutations.

You can view my site and my dogs and their pups who are related to Libby. What do they look like to you? Hm purebreds 

www.martins-goldens.weebly.com

If you care to talk more to me email me at [email protected]

Mel


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## SheetsSM

Sorry, but not sure I trust someone who is studding out their dog on kijiji. Also, on your website with regards to "dual-sired" you have a puppy that took on the characteristics of both studs? I know a litter can have multiple sires, but there is only one father for each pup correct?


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## Charlie_2212

*Molson*



Sunfish said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I was just curious as to peoples thoughts on this. We have recently brought home a "mismarked" golden retriever puppy (she will be 10 weeks old tomorrow) and is an absolute joy.
> 
> I have done some research on mismarking and can't find very much on goldens (its mostly on Labs). I have heard of having some white on the chest or toes, but mine is pretty heavily mismarked. The mother is a purebreed golden. The father (who is also mismarked) is also a purbreed- but not registered. The story is that he is from registered parents, all of his littermates were registered but he wasn't because of his markings.
> 
> I have included 4 photos.
> 1. Our pup (10weeks old)
> 2. the parents (mother is the golden, father is the golden mismark)
> 3. Our pup at 17 days old
> 4. The father as a puppy.
> 
> Is it possible to have a golden this heavily mismarked, or do you think there is a distinct possibility there may be another breed mixed in?
> 
> I would love everyones thoughts/expertise - mostly out of curiosity!!!


I hate how everyone thinks Molson is a mix breed! That's why I didn't take him and took Saturn instead because I would get pissed off at people thinking he was mixed!

White is a throwback genetic mutation to the old field lines in Golden's who had white on their chest, flecks on forhead, paws and white tipped tails. It can be inherited and passed on. 
On the other hand there is another genetic anomoly called Black Spot Phenominon" or Somatic Mutation in which the dog "Golden's" develope black that is not inherited and non transmissible to offspring unless the black is near the reproductive organs.

A better view on it and picture of a Golden with black you can see on the link below.

http://www.ashgi.org/color/Aussie_somatic_mutations.html


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## Charlie_2212

SheetsSM said:


> Sorry, but not sure I trust someone who is studding out their dog on kijiji. Also, on your website with regards to "dual-sired" you have a puppy that took on the characteristics of both studs? I know a litter can have multiple sires, but there is only one father for each pup correct?


That's matter of choice. Indeed the pup did take on characteristics of both males. One of the pups in another litter looked exactly like my male Symbah but had the body, coat and personality of my other male Saturn.


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## ragtym

Charlie_2212 said:


> That's matter of choice. Indeed the pup did take on characteristics of both males. One of the pups in another litter looked exactly like my male Symbah but had the body, coat and personality of my other male Saturn.


Considering that it's a genetic impossibility for the pups to have the genes of more than one sire, you are seriously misleading people here. 1 sperm cell + 1 egg = zygote. Once an egg is fertilized by a sperm, the egg undergoes a reaction that keeps any other sperm from entering it. A litter can have more than one sire, meaning some pups in the litter belong to one sire and some to the other but an individual pup has only a single sire and dam.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Each puppy can only have one sire, but the puppy could resemble his uncles and other relatives, naturally.

Do you do clearances on your dogs? They are pretty, old fashioned looking Golden Retrievers. I like them.

What is the breeding on your German Shepherd?


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## Pointgold

Charlie_2212 said:


> That's matter of choice. Indeed the pup did take on characteristics of both males. One of the pups in another litter looked exactly like my male Symbah but had the body, coat and personality of my other male Saturn.


 
Okay, I went to your website. Since you do not provide the registered names of your dogs one cannot verify clearances. It would seem that you simply have a vet saying that they are "okay". Which essentially means nothing. 

Dual sired litters when DNA tested (which is _required _by the AKC for registration purposes) will identify which male sired which puppy - and ONLY one male can sire a puppy, so "taking on characteristics of both males" is impossible as you are suggesting.

Advertising on kijiji isn't doing a lot for your credibility.

And here's a hint: A photo of a GSD with a basket muzzle on isn't exactly the best way to "stud him out".


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## Charlie_2212

Pointgold said:


> Okay, I went to your website. Since you do not provide the registered names of your dogs one cannot verify clearances. It would seem that you simply have a vet saying that they are "okay". Which essentially means nothing.
> 
> Dual sired litters when DNA tested (which is _required _by the AKC for registration purposes) will identify which male sired which puppy - and ONLY one male can sire a puppy, so "taking on characteristics of both males" is impossible as you are suggesting.
> 
> Advertising on kijiji isn't doing a lot for your credibility.
> 
> And here's a hint: A photo of a GSD with a basket muzzle on isn't exactly the best way to "stud him out".


I don't register my dogs because I'm simply not showing them in a ring. Just because of the stupid AKC/CKC and their little giddy show ring apparently anything that deviates from their standard by a bit is wrong. Some of the really top breeders of any breed that breed for show ring dogs breed brother to sister, mother to son, father to daughtger and so on to get what maybe one or two quality show pups. I think that's seriously wrong rather than some white on a Golden. 

A lot of really excellent breeders advertise on Kijiji. I had a basket muzzle on him because I take him downtown on buses, go trains, subways and on the Mississauga Transit you need to have the dog Muzzled. I don't have it on him because he's aggressive. I train my dogs like service dogs.


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## Susan6953

Isn't it hard to sell the puppies if they aren't registered? Even people who know nothing about clearances expect purebred dogs to be registered.


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## ragtym

Charlie_2212 said:


> I don't register my dogs because I'm simply not showing them in a ring. Just because of the stupid AKC/CKC and their little giddy show ring apparently anything that deviates from their standard by a bit is wrong.


Funny, I don't remember ever reading anything in the AKC/CKC rules that said "you shouldn't register your dogs with us if they aren't show dogs". Both of these clubs offer OTHER activities besides the conformation ring that don't take the look of the dog into account. Why would you let your obvious contempt for the show ring interfere with being able to compete with your dogs in Obedience, Agility, Field Trials, Hunt Tests, etc?



Charlie_2212 said:


> Some of the really top breeders of any breed that breed for show ring dogs breed brother to sister, mother to son, father to daughtger and so on to get what maybe one or two quality show pups. I think that's seriously wrong rather than some white on a Golden.


Really? Here's the top 5 Golden Retrievers in Canada - along with their pedigrees...

1. GCh. Nautilus Animation Matrix - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=160154

2. Ch. Creeksidefrm Floatslkabuttrfly - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=220099

3. Ch. Kilkerran's Wee Connor Boy - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=268519

4. Ch. Auburnmist Special Blend - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=232829

5. Ch. Verdoro Tellise Arrowsmith - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=211752

Top 5 in the US:

1. CH Toasty's Treasure Island - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=176620

2. CH Rush Hill's River Road Payoff - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=227178

3. CH Easthill Broxden Pop Star - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=195361

4. CH Tempo's U've Got What Gets Me - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=177775

5. CH Golden Trip Snow Dream - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=288408

Not a single father-daughter, brother-sister, mother-son breeding among them. This fallacy usually gets thrown out there whenever people are trying to find fault with "show dogs".


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## Charlie_2212

K9-Design said:


> Actually what golden retrievers are known for are their stoic, friendly, bombproof temperaments, intelligence, retrieving ability, trainability, and oh yeah -- a GOLDEN coat. If you want a dog without cancer, HD, allergies, cataracts and with a gold and WHITE coat I would suggest perhaps an Italian greyhound, Pomeranian, or a tabby cat.
> This argument cuts both ways.


I agree with Silver on this one. You don't see heavy white/goldenish coated thick boned heavy show golden's flying through the feilds for ducks like they use to decades ago because stupid humans degraded them into what they think is pretty. I read in on another blog that as long as the face is pretty on the golden the rest doesn't matter as much. I think dogs should be bred for their attributes and what they were meant to do not be genetically modified from what was.

Feild lines do have that genetic diversity.


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## Charlie_2212

K9-Design said:


> Actually what golden retrievers are known for are their stoic, friendly, bombproof temperaments, intelligence, retrieving ability, trainability, and oh yeah -- a GOLDEN coat. If you want a dog without cancer, HD, allergies, cataracts and with a gold and WHITE coat I would suggest perhaps an Italian greyhound, Pomeranian, or a tabby cat.
> This argument cuts both ways.





Susan6953 said:


> Isn't it hard to sell the puppies if they aren't registered? Even people who know nothing about clearances expect purebred dogs to be registered.


Since I only offer a stud service I do not have the whole litter. I take a pup from the litter and I sell/give them to family and friends. They know my dogs are purebred obviously or I wouldn't be selling them the dog. I had a lady come to me wanting a pup that wan't registered/tattoo'd for some reason. Some breeders bump the price of pups up if they have papers included.


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## Charlie_2212

ragtym said:


> Funny, I don't remember ever reading anything in the AKC/CKC rules that said "you shouldn't register your dogs with us if they aren't show dogs". Both of these clubs offer OTHER activities besides the conformation ring that don't take the look of the dog into account. Why would you let your obvious contempt for the show ring interfere with being able to compete with your dogs in Obedience, Agility, Field Trials, Hunt Tests, etc?
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Here's the top 5 Golden Retrievers in Canada - along with their pedigrees...
> 
> 1. GCh. Nautilus Animation Matrix - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=160154
> 
> 2. Ch. Creeksidefrm Floatslkabuttrfly - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=220099
> 
> 3. Ch. Kilkerran's Wee Connor Boy - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=268519
> 
> 4. Ch. Auburnmist Special Blend - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=232829
> 
> 5. Ch. Verdoro Tellise Arrowsmith - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=211752
> 
> Top 5 in the US:
> 
> 1. CH Toasty's Treasure Island - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=176620
> 
> 2. CH Rush Hill's River Road Payoff - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=227178
> 
> 3. CH Easthill Broxden Pop Star - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=195361
> 
> 4. CH Tempo's U've Got What Gets Me - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=177775
> 
> 5. CH Golden Trip Snow Dream - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=288408
> 
> Not a single father-daughter, brother-sister, mother-son breeding among them. This fallacy usually gets thrown out there whenever people are trying to find fault with "show dogs".


You can't tell me that the interbreeding doesn't happen with some breeders. People keep secrets you know. Obviously they aren't going to advertise that they are inbreeding on their site if they have done it at some point.

The show ring dogs are replica's of each other trying to beat the other..


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## Charlie_2212

Charlie_2212 said:


> You can't tell me that the interbreeding doesn't happen with some breeders. People keep secrets you know. Obviously they aren't going to advertise that they are inbreeding on their site if they have done it at some point.
> 
> The show ring dogs are replica's of each other trying to beat the other..


PLUS it seems to me that people who breed show ring Golden's are so uptight they only like dogs that look like the standard and don't see otherwise. "Oh no it has some bit of white it's a MUTT" pff..

I was asking a breeder of show dogs for some advice and she was completely ignorant and told me because my dog was the brother of the one with white I got screwed over with a mutts even though my dogs and all the other litter mates including the parents have no white. The breeder has no adult dogs with white on them in his breeding stock. She told me that it's ok that their mutts and I should still love them anyways. (rolls eyes).


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## Pointgold

Charlie_2212 said:


> I don't register my dogs because I'm simply not showing them in a ring. Just because of the stupid AKC/CKC and their little giddy show ring apparently anything that deviates from their standard by a bit is wrong. Some of the really top breeders of any breed that breed for show ring dogs breed brother to sister, mother to son, father to daughtger and so on to get what maybe one or two quality show pups. I think that's seriously wrong rather than some white on a Golden.
> 
> A lot of really excellent breeders advertise on Kijiji. I had a basket muzzle on him because I take him downtown on buses, go trains, subways and on the Mississauga Transit you need to have the dog Muzzled. I don't have it on him because he's aggressive. I train my dogs like service dogs.


 
My question wasn't about whether you registered your dogs or not (the reference to AKC was about DNA testing pups of dual sired litters to establish paternity) but rather about genetic health clearances. Which you did not answer, so I will assume that you do not. And based on much of what you have posted here in replies, your kijiji advertisments, and the rhetoric on your website, I feel relatively safe "assuming" quite a bit.


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## Ljilly28

Charlie_2212 said:


> PLUS it seems to me that people who breed show ring Golden's are so uptight they only like dogs that look like the standard and don't see otherwise. "Oh no it has some bit of white it's a MUTT" pff..
> 
> I was asking a breeder of show dogs for some advice and she was completely ignorant and told me because my dog was the brother of the one with white I got screwed over with a mutts even though my dogs and all the other litter mates including the parents have no white. The breeder has no adult dogs with white on them in his breeding stock. She told me that it's ok that their mutts and I should still love them anyways. (rolls eyes).




I'm a little lost about why you have such scorn for both mutts and show goldens. You're offended by the idea of someone thinking your dog's brother is a mixed breed. Why? Why do you care if your dogs are purebred, if you don't health test or register them or value the purpose of either the AKC standard or linebreeding? Do you hunt with your goldens? What do you do with them?


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## Ljilly28

> He is a highly reputable breeder and has never has his dogs had hip/elbow/heart/eye/thyroid problems


Well, see this statement makes me uneasy. There is a percentage of goldens who experience these problems no matter how wonderful and cautious the breeder. I would not believe any breeder who claimed never, ever to have had any degree of any of these issues. The best breeders will be honest.


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## SheetsSM

Well she knows that she should be doing the health clearances because I believe it's Saturn's kijiji posting saying the clearances are pending & that she expects them to be all "excellent". And despite the sire of her own pups offering a 6 year guarantee she offers nothing because she can't be responsible for how folks raise their dogs...there is a whole lot of talking out both sides of the mouth here. I hate when folks believe themselves to be an expert (2 sires for one puppy) yet do not keep themselves open to mentoring...I like the passion, confidence & assertiveness, too bad it's misguided & closeminded.


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## Pointgold

SheetsSM said:


> Well she knows that she should be doing the health clearances because I believe it's Saturn's kijiji posting saying the clearances are pending & that she expects them to be all "excellent". And despite the sire of her own pups offering a 6 year guarantee she offers nothing because she can't be responsible for how folks raise their dogs...there is a whole lot of talking out both sides of the mouth here. I hate when folks believe themselves to be an expert (2 sires for one puppy) yet do not keep themselves open to mentoring...I like the passion, confidence & assertiveness, too bad it's misguided & closeminded.


 
Perhaps since she states that she plans to go to vet school and is taught even the very _basics _of genetics, she will learn that most of what she has posted here and on her site is completely incorrect. 

And frankly, it doesn't say much for those who bring their bitches to be bred that they would use dogs that are not registered and have no health clearances. They must not have a lot of experience if they buy into the rhetoric.


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## tippykayak

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then there's a good chance that at least one of its two fathers was a duck.


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## K9-Design

Charlie_2212 said:


> You don't see heavy white/goldenish coated thick boned heavy show golden's flying through the feilds for ducks like they use to decades ago because stupid humans degraded them into what they think is pretty.


No, you don't see heavy white goldens at all because that NOT characteristic of the breed. You didn't see them "decades ago" and you don't see them now because goldens are not bred to have white on them.



> I read in on another blog that as long as the face is pretty on the golden the rest doesn't matter as much.


Um, okay, well obviously the author of the blog was as fluent with the standard and dog shows in general as you are. That is...not so much.



> Feild lines do have that genetic diversity.


If you know anything about golden retriever field lines in North America you would know they have a very small gene pool, higher COIs and MORE of a popular sire effect than show line goldens.
Of course, let me guess, to you "field lines" means they are smaller and have red coats. Regardless of whether they actually have field titles in their pedigree or aptitude for hunting. Right?


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## K9-Design

Charlie_2212 said:


> You can't tell me that the interbreeding doesn't happen with some breeders. People keep secrets you know. Obviously they aren't going to advertise that they are inbreeding on their site if they have done it at some point.


If the dogs are REGISTERED then the PEDIGREE is on record and published for all to see. There are no secrets. The secrets remain hidden if people breed without registering with no paper trail on who was bred to who.

You know normally I wouldn't spend much time responding to such ridiculous posts but the fear is, some innocent person reads Charlie's posts and thinks there's some truth to them, and there is not.


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## ragtym

Charlie_2212 said:


> Obviously they aren't going to advertise that they are inbreeding on their site if they have done it at some point.


Um, they can't hide it. If you can read a pedigree, it's quite easy to see if you know what you are looking for. Since "show breeders" have to register their dogs in order to show them, the pedigrees are out for anyone to see.

(I expect that now you will come back with "well, you don't expect them to tell the truth about inbreeding, do you?") 

I find it quite funny that your stud dog ad says "I will *refuse* any female from a petstore, as to not prolong bad puppymill genetics for the pups own health. Also any female that has a bad gate when walking or irregularities from the breed standard. He has no health problems what so ever. or ailments. In Perfect condition, get's many compliments from our vet." 
yet you complain about how the AKC/CKC look down on dogs who deviate from the standard.

http://www.hoobly.com/0/0/1004624.html


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## K9-Design

You know I just had a thought. Isn't it telling that we can get people coming out of the woods to argue against basic scientific fact and basic principles of animal husbandry based on one factor : the color of their dog. The ONE aspect of a breeding animal that ANYONE can see with the naked eye and is literally, a black and white issue. Something that requires no testing by an expert, no diagnostics, yet something we take very personally. Our breed of choice was named solely because of its color! Yet in the scheme of things, color is pretty far down on the list of priorities when choosing an animal as a pet, show dog, performance animal or breeding prospect. 
If other factors of the animal not so easily discerned brought about so much concern and strong defense, we might be better off.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Very good point!


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## Pointgold

ragtym said:


> I find it quite funny that your stud dog ad says "I will *refuse* any female from a petstore, as to not prolong bad puppymill genetics for the pups own health. Also any female that has a bad gate when walking or irregularities from the breed standard. He has no health problems what so ever. or ailments. In Perfect condition, get's many compliments from our vet."
> http://www.hoobly.com/0/0/1004624.html


_THIS _is a bad "gate" :









_THIS _is a Golden Retriever with a bad gait:


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## vixen

pointgold that is funny lol

I not shore what the disagreament is in this thread at 28 pages I gave up trying to figour it out.

Anyway I just wanted to point out not all missmarked goldens have white on them as Max shows


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## AquaClaraCanines

I just placed a yellow Lab that had the random black splotch on him. He was an AKC, and clearly purebred, Labrador Retriever. However, his owners thought he had "a little Dalmatian in there" because of the spot. Silly.


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## lgnutah

Pointgold said:


> _THIS _is a bad "gate" :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey!! I love this gait


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## MurphyTeller

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I just placed a yellow Lab that had the random black splotch on him. He was an AKC, and clearly purebred, Labrador Retriever. However, his owners thought he had "a little Dalmatian in there" because of the spot. Silly.


Black or dark blonde/red spots (as above) are the result of a somatic mutation. This is not genetic (inherited or passed on) and is pretty common actually. As for "a little dalmatian in there", well there's just no cure for stoopid is there?
Erica


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## MurphyTeller

Pointgold said:


> _THIS _is a bad "gate" :


It's a good thing I don't have to worry about anyone breeding to my bad gate - wouldn't want a stud getting a splinter. Plus I'm pretty sure that my gate has some cardiac issues.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Definitely no cure for stupid!

I have a very good gate. I would let you breed to it, so long as I could take pictures.


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## Charlie_2212

K9-Design said:


> If the dogs are REGISTERED then the PEDIGREE is on record and published for all to see. There are no secrets. The secrets remain hidden if people breed without registering with no paper trail on who was bred to who.
> 
> You know normally I wouldn't spend much time responding to such ridiculous posts but the fear is, some innocent person reads Charlie's posts and thinks there's some truth to them, and there is not.


Overall, I just don't like the fact that just because any golden has a little more white or the black somatic mutation on it they think it's a mix breed. That's what pisses me off...and your calling ME close minded about it just because it doesn't look like your standard Golden.


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## MurphyTeller

Charlie_2212 said:


> Overall, I just don't like the fact that just because any golden has a little more white or the black somatic mutation on it they think it's a mix breed. That's what pisses me off...and your calling ME close minded about it just because it doesn't look like your standard Golden.


There is a big difference between four white feet with a white blaze and a few white hairs on a dog's chest.

A somatic mutation is not at all the same as a genetically white dog - or a dog with a blaze/white collar.

There's an often quoted phrase that if there are hoofbeats think horses not zebras. If a "golden" looks like a border collie it's probably more likely to be a border collie not a golden with a brand new set of "genetic" mutations that result in white feet and blazes...


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## Pointgold

Charlie_2212 said:


> Overall, I just don't like the fact that just because any golden has a little more white or the black somatic mutation on it they think it's a mix breed. That's what pisses me off...and your calling ME close minded about it just because it doesn't look like your standard Golden.


 
A white blaze, white boots, and white chest is a lot more than a "little more white or the black somatic mutation" and cannot be justified as such. Incorrect information on websites, bastardizing the standard, and breeding dogs without clearances "pisses" me off.


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## Braccarius

Pointgold said:


> A white blaze, white boots, and white chest is a lot more than a "little more white or the black somatic mutation" and cannot be justified as such. Incorrect information on websites, bastardizing the standard, and breeding dogs without clearances "pisses" me off.


I agree 100% on the breeding of dogs without clearances. Its too bad they don't have a temperment clearance for dogs. Lately I've been encountering some really snippy goldens!


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## Pointgold

Braccarius said:


> I agree 100% on the breeding of dogs without clearances. Its too bad they don't have a temperment clearance for dogs. Lately I've been encountering some really snippy goldens!


 
Temperament is an important part of the standard. It needs to be addressed as a whole.

I've not seen "jumping high" as part of the Golden standard, BTW...


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## K9-Design

Charlie_2212 said:


> Overall, I just don't like the fact that just because any golden has a little more white or the black somatic mutation on it they think it's a mix breed. That's what pisses me off...and your calling ME close minded about it just because it doesn't look like your standard Golden.



Dude --- read the whole thread. NOBODY is saying that black spots on a golden = mixed breed because it is very well known that this is a somatic -- noninherited -- mutation.
We are not saying that a small bit of white -- white spot on chest, white toe, white snip on nose, etc -- means the dog is not purebred. THIS small amount of white is quite common. My own golden - a show champion - has a nickle-sized spot of white on his chest. So does his father, who was the #1 golden in the US for two years. 
What we ARE saying is that if an UNregistered dog of NO known pedigree has SIGNIFICANT amounts of white -- it MOST LIKELY is a mixed breed.


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## AquaClaraCanines

No kidding. I really worry about the temperament in this breed. I've just had two nasty ones, one of which did long term damage to my hand, wrist, and arm. The other was randomly and unpredictably dog aggressive- to the point he would at times accidentally bite or scratch me or one of the other dogs. I've also just had a horribly shy nutcase who only I could touch, though he was not aggressive, not even when cornered and terrified. He is adjusting to a new home, but was absolutely terrified of the family for the first hours. This is not encouraging. I trust my GSD infinitely more with my child than any Golden (except Brooklyn, what a doll she is, though she will fight with other females). Now I know there are awful and insane GSDs all over the place, so I am not saying they are better off at all. In fact I know they are worse off. But it's just sad to me that these temperaments are becoming so common.


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## Swampcollie

AquaClaraCanines said:


> You could not get a black Golden Retriever. It is genetically impossible. Black is dominant, and one parent must be black. This is why two yellow Labs can NEVER have a black puppy.


Almost impossible ACC, but it can happen if one of the parents passes along a mutated gene to a puppy. If that occurs (as rare as mutations happen) you will get a black puppy. (ONE puppy, not a whole litter)




Now back to the thread....

White mismarks can and do occur. White toes, white chest blazes, head blazes, white socks, etc. They are not rare nor exceptional. Despite the best laid plans, with two solid colored dogs you can get unexpected (and sometimes undesired) results. They happen because of the genetics of the animals used in creating the breed. 

That being said there is a HUGE difference between accepting the fact that mismarks can occur, and intentionally breeding for them. No Golden is perfect, there are always faults or individual traits that can be improved upon. That is why there is a Standard. It is a guide to help breeders make better choices when selecting prospective parents. It defines the "intent" for the breed. 

Where mis-marks are concerned the "intent" is clear, a solid color absent of white or other off color markings is the goal.


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## Pointgold

Poor temperaments are becoming "so common" because lousy breeders are becoming more common, and people justify breeding anything that walks. The internet is rife with 'em. Reading some of the BS rhetoric that is on so many of the sites makes it absolutely clear that these people have no business owning an intact dog that they can reproduce.


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## MurphyTeller

Pointgold said:


> Poor temperaments are becoming "so common" because lousy breeders are becoming more common, and people justify breeding anything that walks. The internet is rife with 'em. Reading some of the BS rhetoric that is on so many of the sites makes it absolutely clear that these people have no business owning an intact dog that they can reproduce.


Amen.........


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## Braccarius

Pointgold said:


> Poor temperaments are becoming "so common" because lousy breeders are becoming more common, and people justify breeding anything that walks. The internet is rife with 'em. Reading some of the BS rhetoric that is on so many of the sites makes it absolutely clear that these people have no business owning an intact dog that they can reproduce.


I don't think that temperament issues in golden retrievers are as common as they are in other dogs, but I do disagree that it is simply poor breeders. People who don't have the ability to handle or train their dog may contribute but Breeding for the "whole package" is definitely not as easy as it appears to be. And, I'd dare say if it comes down to a "high tail" or a "high strung" I know which one would probably be in the show ring and the next stud dog.


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## Pointgold

Braccarius said:


> I don't think that temperament issues in golden retrievers are as common as they are in other dogs, but I do disagree that it is simply poor breeders. People who don't have the ability to handle or train their dog may contribute but Breeding for the "whole package" is definitely not as easy as it appears to be. And, I'd dare say if it comes down to a "high tail" or a "high strung" I know which one would probably be in the show ring and the next stud dog.


Temperament goes beyond not being able to handle or train a dog. There are dogs with perfectly sound temperaments who because people do not properly handle or train are spoiled brats, but still have inherently good temperaments. If someone is knowingly breeding a dog with an unsound temperament, then I consider them lousy breeders. If someone doesn't recognize an unsound temperament and breeds it because it is an intact animal, _that _is a lousy breeder. Breeding a dog simply _because _s/he has a "good temperament" and overlooking everything else - genetic health, structure, movement, the standard - is also lousy, IMO.
As for dogs with unsound temperaments being in the show ring, there most certainly are some, but not nearly as many as some of the Puppy 4 $ale website breeders would like the general public to believe... And I can say that thankfully I've seen few.


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## Pointgold

I'll add that breeding for the whole package is _not _easy, and careful, responsible breeders would never try to convince anyone that it is. However, simply putting two intact animals of the opposite sex together _is, _and when the bottom line is cash, (or, having the children experience the miracle of birth, or, King/Queen is SO nice we want one of his/her puppies, etc etc), doing what it takes to do it right means little (and, it means a "little" less profit.)


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## Ljilly28

Pointgold said:


> I'll add that breeding for the whole package is _not _easy, and careful, responsible breeders would never try to convince anyone that it is. However, simply putting two intact animals of the opposite sex together _is, _and when the bottom line is cash, (or, having the children experience the miracle of birth, or, King/Queen is SO nice we want one of his/her puppies, etc etc), doing what it takes to do it right means little (and, it means a "little" less profit.)


When you see a good breeder at work, it is very eye-opening. It would be fun to see a thread in which our good breeders here walk us through their entire processes, start to finish. 

For example, my Joplin's breeder started off by training and titling goldens who she considered typey in a good way & of a style she liked with excellent working ability in the field. She showed her dogs and hunted with them too- lived with them, worked, and played. Then, she did health clearances. By this time, two or three years were aleady invested. After a healthy dog who has proven herself is ready to have a litter, there is even more and more work and research to be done. COI's, matches of syle and strengths and weaknesses of the boy- I don't even know bc I am not a breeder. . . 

I guess I am agreeing with PG, and trying to say that it can take a years to plan a particular litter for a good breeder with many issues of health, temperament, working ability, and conformation being pondered, researched, discussed etc.

I do not think most people know how much time &care can go into planning a litter. I am not too sure I even know all the steps- bc imo it is for experienced experts and people new to breeding should work with a mentor who is very experienced.


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## Layne

I own Bellas sister Abby. She is mentioned on retrievermans blog. Molson, their father, was the only pup from his litter with any white all the other were "typical" goldens and were registered. The breeder who owned him has been breeding purebred goldens for over 25 years and has only had one other litter that produced pups with white markings. Colour genetics aside, the breed was developed in the early stages from breeds that were white marked breeds.


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## Charlie_2212

http://www.ashgi.org/color/Aussie_somatic_mutations.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John's_Water_Dog

http://www.labbies.com/genetics2.htm#Loci















http://img1.classistatic.com/cps/kj/091011/216r3/3490f68_20.jpeg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v160/136/53/504958503/n504958503_415408_8050.jpg

I have another picture with a litter from the breeder that shows one of the pups has the black somatic mutation on his head but I cannot find it.

So because labs can have coat mutations Golden's can't? that's the drift I get from non believers because anything genetic is possible. 

The Irish Setter is another breed that took part in making the Golden Retriever and the Irish Setter was made by selecting dogs that had more red than white and in the end made the full red coated Irish Setter.

This says it all. I believe this is where the white comes from.

http://www.irishredandwhitesetterclub.org/history.htm

It clearly explains that there was "mismarked pups with white stockings.


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## fostermom

Charlie_2212 said:


> http://www.ashgi.org/color/Aussie_somatic_mutations.html
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John's_Water_Dog
> 
> http://www.labbies.com/genetics2.htm#Loci
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://img1.classistatic.com/cps/kj/091011/216r3/3490f68_20.jpeg
> 
> http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v160/136/53/504958503/n504958503_415408_8050.jpg
> 
> I have another picture with a litter from the breeder that shows one of the pups has the black somatic mutation on his head but I cannot find it.
> 
> So because labs can have coat mutations Golden's can't? that's the drift I get from non believers because anything genetic is possible.
> 
> The Irish Setter is another breed that took part in making the Golden Retriever and the Irish Setter was made by selecting dogs that had more red than white and in the end made the full red coated Irish Setter.
> 
> This says it all. I believe this is where the white comes from.
> 
> http://www.irishredandwhitesetterclub.org/history.htm
> 
> It clearly explains that there was "mismarked pups with white stockings.


I am not sure what battle you are fighting here?


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## Pointgold

Good grief. :doh:


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## Sadie53

What a very pretty dog.Wow!


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