# Helping on a Mark



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just to keep the H&F section rolling along, here is a question I was pondering yesterday. 

In learning/training when do you help a dog on a mark, from bird boy. How much would you give in what situation. If using a winger, would you salt the AOF for a young dog?

Feel free to post other questions regarding help on marks. This might be a good topic for those new to field training.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Here's what Mike Lardy has to say about it when using live gunners:

*Using the Gunner to Assist Marking Success
From Total Retriever Marking with Mike Lardy
*​*​**Having the Gun Help *​This means that the gun station helps the dog who is lost in the field. Helping can take many forms. The gun can:

Stand;
Stand and Yell "Hey Hey";
Stand, Yell, Wave Arms and Walk Toward Mark;
Stand, Yell, Wave Arms, Walk Toward the Mark and Throw the Bird Up
The gunner should help in response to a silent signal from the handler such as an arm wave, or to a request by radio. Yelling to signal the gun may attract the dog's attention back to the handler. *The gun should give as much help as necessary and as little as possible*. It is always better to have the dog resume his hunt in the fall area and find the bird on his own. As the dog resumes his hunt in the fall area the gunner should retreat to his chair. If you intend to use your dog for hunting (I hope you are!) it is helpful to have the gunner repeatedly use some cue such as "find the bird" or "hunt it up" as the dog comes in to the fall area while being helped. You will use this cue while hunting to encourage your dog to hunt up a dead bird it did not see fall or to hunt up and flush a live bird.
*Gunner Assistance*​Gunner assistance is the term used to describe how a thrower can help a dog who is still at the handler's side. 
*This is slightly different than having the gun help *-- a procedure such as above for helping a dog who is lost in the field. The gunner would normally sit down after throwing a mark. To assist a dog on a memory mark, with the dog sitting at your side, you would have the gun assist by:

Standing;
Standing and waving arms; or
Standing and yelling "hey-hey"
The idea is the dog will look out and remember the mark or will simply be intrigued enough to run out and check when you send him. You should always have your guns ready to offer assistance when teaching doubles to young dogs. Use a radio or have some pre-determined signal to indicate to the gun to escalate the assistance. Avoid no-goes by reading your dog's uncertainty and offering the gunner assistance before you send for the mark (on the first few taught doubles.)"​When not using a live human, for a young dog, yes I would want to help ensure success when they get all the way out there. Salting the area would be one way, another is to put two wingers on a station and do a quack and retrhow to maintain momentum if needed. A requack from the electronics can also be used much like a hey-hey as well to encourage a dog to hunt tighter. We will also sometimes hang a white shirt on the winger or set up a stickman to help a young dog focus on that key mark if we don't have a gunner out there to help.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

After helping/watching at the UKC seasoned hunt test last summer. I talked to several trainers about this. They all said that once the dog understand to watch for the mark to fall you should not help too much. They didnt help the dog at all if it went out of the AOF unless the dog stayed out the AOF or went further outside the AOF. 

one thing I was having trouble with is Jige will blow over the mark. He didnt want to slow down. So a fellow trainer told me to scent up tennis balls. Throw the ball so he can see it and send him out with a phrase I use " Hunt it up". start out in short grass so he can find it easily then move on to taller grass and then plant the balls and send him out with the phrase. He learns then that there is something there but he has to get his nose down to find it. 
I have to tell you it worked great. I want to work on it some more Jige was getting the hang of it and then we finally got some snow. so field work is out for a few weeks.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

General V said:


> After helping/watching at the UKC seasoned hunt test last summer. I talked to several trainers about this. They all said that once the dog understand to watch for the mark to fall you should not help too much. They didnt help the dog at all if it went out of the AOF unless the dog stayed out the AOF or went further outside the AOF.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> With a young dog you want to encourage success, but not to the extent of engendering dependence. It is a fine balance to achieve. One mistake gunners make is giving too much help, helping too late, or giving inappropriate help that does not make the dog responsible fo digging out the bird. So long as the dog is in the AOF and hunting, leave him alone! But if he is not making the AOF, is blowing through the AOF, or is giving up a hunt and leaving the AOF then the gunner does need to help. This is where an experienced gunner and a clear set of communication signals with the handler online is key. It is also important to communicate how much help you want for your dog BEFORE you run, especially if training with new people.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Riot has received help in various ways. On longer, more challenging marks, I sometimes have the gunners stand and wave before he is sent. He is still working on "picking the gunners out." 

Have you ever done "fire hose" marks? We did this to help stretch him out to 200-300 yds. Basically, the gunner takes a bunch of bumpers and keeps throwing as the dog is on the way. Helps keep the dog focused on the mark on a long run. It was really helpful for Riot.

I have a question related to this. The other day I threw a double for Ri. Then I walk back and send him. However, he ran half way out and then came back to me. (as a side note, I KNEW the second I sent him that I shouldn't have, he was hot and tired and not locked in at all). Anyway, I gave him a pop on the pinch collar toward the mark (it wasn't too long) and told him to fetch. He went out and got the mark. I didn't send him to get the memory bird. I am just wondering if there was something else I should do if he comes back, if I am training by myself. One thing I know I need to do it not send him if I know he's not into it...


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

mlopez said:


> Riot has received help in various ways. On longer, more challenging marks, I sometimes have the gunners stand and wave before he is sent. He is still working on "picking the gunners out."
> 
> Have you ever done "fire hose" marks? We did this to help stretch him out to 200-300 yds. Basically, the gunner takes a bunch of bumpers and keeps throwing as the dog is on the way. Helps keep the dog focused on the mark on a long run. It was really helpful for Riot.
> 
> I have a question related to this. The other day I threw a double for Ri. Then I walk back and send him. However, he ran half way out and then came back to me. (as a side note, I KNEW the second I sent him that I shouldn't have, he was hot and tired and not locked in at all). Anyway, I gave him a pop on the pinch collar toward the mark (it wasn't too long) and told him to fetch. He went out and got the mark. I didn't send him to get the memory bird. I am just wondering if there was something else I should do if he comes back, if I am training by myself. One thing I know I need to do it not send him if I know he's not into it...


 

Fire drill is great for stretching young dogs out on marks and building momentum!
A stand-alone double might have just been too much to ask of him. Have you tried using stickmen when doing these sorts of marks to give him a point of reference in the field for confidence?


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I like the sound of the Firehose drill. I'll have to try that with Doo to help stretch him out, he has gotten much better on going long, but it never hurts to re-visit.

Working alone can be tough. Marie, you and your husband need to pack up and move to Oregon. We could help each other.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

sterregold said:


> A stand-alone double might have just been too much to ask of him. Have you tried using stickmen when doing these sorts of marks to give him a point of reference in the field for confidence?


That is probably what I need to do. I think I could make myself some very cheap "stickmen" with a white sheet and some dowels. Putting it on my list!



DNL2448 said:


> I like the sound of the Firehose drill. I'll have to try that with Doo to help stretch him out, he has gotten much better on going long, but it never hurts to re-visit.
> 
> Working alone can be tough. Marie, you and your husband need to pack up and move to Oregon. We could help each other.


Hahaha!! The funny thing is, we used to live in Tacoma, WA. But that was B.P. (before puppy; and before marriage...). You guys should come this way! The weather is so much better, no snow!


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

mlopez said:


> That is probably what I need to do. I think I could make myself some very cheap "stickmen" with a white sheet and some dowels. Putting it on my list!


I just bought a couple electric fence (white tape kind) posts that stick into the ground. I put a white, plastic grocery bag on it and it makes for a quick, easy stick man.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

The timing of those fire hose marks are very important and they should be thrown when the dog is breaking down and losing momentum slightly towards the mark. The last one thrown is very critical. Don't throw any more than you have too.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Radarsdad said:


> The timing of those fire hose marks are very important and they should be thrown when the dog is breaking down and losing momentum slightly towards the mark. The last one thrown is very critical. Don't throw any more than you have too.


Yes--this is key. Throwing marks when the dog is too close to the station can have the opposite effect than what is desired--it can teach the dog that it does not have to work, but just wait for the gunner to lob an easy one in there!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Don't forget you need to throw at least thousand singles to teach a dog to mark.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

It depends on the experience of the dog, and even the handler. If its an experienced dog and handler I almost never help unless I am asked too or if the dog is taking a very strong and deliberate beeline away from the mark.

For younger dogs it depends on where they are at in their training. If they are slowing down getting ready to give up a little 'hey, hey' and another throw is often all they need to keep going.

For intermediate dogs if they are giving up a good hunt you can subtly help them by slowing walking toward the fall. If they are intent on leaving the area then I would 'hey, hey' or quack just to get them back in the area of the fall. I watch closely--anytime they start making a turn away a small quack to get them back on track.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

sterregold said:


> Yes--this is key. Throwing marks when the dog is too close to the station can have the opposite effect than what is desired--it can teach the dog that it does not have to work, but just wait for the gunner to lob an easy one in there!


Often just a step or two toward the mark by the gunner will suffice. This where an experienced gunner and or handler comes into play. You are trying to use as little help as possible and not get the dog relying on the gunner for help. He has to work some things out on his own and learn to focus.


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