# New Trend?



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Were they with professional handlers or owner handlers?


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Where was the show?


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## kjengold (Jun 19, 2007)

I didn't recognize the handler and didn't have a catalog with me. For sure it was not a well known handler like Maddie, Adam or Ginny. People came from all over the east coast.


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## kjengold (Jun 19, 2007)

The show was in Fletcher, NC (Asheville Kennel Club) Sandlapper GRC Designated Specialty.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

kjengold said:


> .....several goldens that were groomed like a setter. Their necks looked clipped. It looked so bizarre. It wasn't just one golden that was groomed like that. There were several....


Well, that's just disturbing. I will have to go check out some photos..... I'm firmly in the camp that thinks they ought to be judged outdoors and have a bucket of water dumped on each as they file into the ring.....


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## kjengold (Jun 19, 2007)

The show was outside and on Saturday we were showing in the rain. lol


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

kjengold said:


> The show was outside and on Saturday we were showing in the rain. lol


I did see some of those photos now that you mention it  I was at a hunt test outside of charlotte all weekend and it was definitely all the weather for a year compressed into a weekend. Hope you had fun


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

We’ll be in trouble if the handlers start doing it... I haven’t seen any in my area that have been stripping necks like setters and spaniels. I may or may not have accidentally over-thinned under one of Eevee’s ears for her last show though 😅


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I do know of handlers who the instant they get a dog they really strip out the necks. If you saw/know the dog before the handler got them, it can be a bit jarring to see how much got stripped out of the neck. But I wouldn't consider that to be to the extent that they do overseas with goldens and other breeds (everything in gun club apparently gets groomed like a setter... >..< )

When I say heavily stripped out - Looks like this.











As opposed to this (barf)


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## kjengold (Jun 19, 2007)

Yes, the neck was like the bottom photo only clipped more than that. It looked so weird. When we saw the first one, we thought maybe the dog had a hot spot and that's why it was practically shaved, but then there several more clipped like that and realized it was done on purpose...Yikes!


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

In Europe and the UK the dogs are trimmed like the dog in the Crufts photo (I bred his Mother) The necks left untrimmed look as odd to us as a neck that has been trimmed does to you. Annef


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

annef said:


> In Europe and the UK the dogs are trimmed like the dog in the Crufts photo (I bred his Mother) The necks left untrimmed look as odd to us as a neck that has been trimmed does to you. Annef


No offense meant as far as the physical dog. Just was referring to grooming a retriever the same way you groom a setter or springer.

Physical dog appears lovely - though I wish it did not have red on the elbows - which goes back to grooming and maintenance.  The one time I entered under a UK judge - he brought out all the european line goldens out of the woodwork. Dogs with staining on the elbows. One dog has grass stains on his coat...! The guy was putting up dogs like that - it was insane. 

AKC golden breed standard has it written in there that the dogs are supposed to be shown naturally with very minimal trimming. The biggest complaint from many breeder judges is there is too much "sculpting" done on many dogs + dogs bred to have excessive coats that can be sculpted. There are many who say these dogs should be wash and go. 

The Kennel Club does not have anything related to trimming written into the breed standard for goldens.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Does anyone have a photo? I'm having trouble picturing what it would look like. Like I know what a setter looks like but I don't understand how that would look on a golden.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

No offence taken! There never is anything written in breed standards on trimming and I feel many dogs are over trimmed. We show the dogs in quite a natural coat so wavy coats are correct and the coat should be slightly coarse and be a double coat with the traditional waterproof undercoat. Annef


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

annef said:


> In Europe and the UK the dogs are trimmed like the dog in the Crufts photo (I bred his Mother) The necks left untrimmed look as odd to us as a neck that has been trimmed does to you. Annef





annef said:


> No offence taken! There never is anything written in breed standards on trimming and I feel many dogs are over trimmed. We show the dogs in quite a natural coat so wavy coats are correct and the coat should be slightly coarse and be a double coat with the traditional waterproof undercoat. Annef


It’s a lovely dog, and I agree with AnneF about the European trimming vs American grooming. I think the grooming/blow drying/etc. that is done here in the US has gotten really out of hand. I like the natural texture of coats that we see in the UK show ring.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

HaliaGoldens said:


> I think the grooming/blow drying/etc. that is done here in the US has gotten really out of hand. I like the natural texture of coats that we see in the UK show ring.



Robin, why do we bathe/blow dry etc dogs right before entering the ring?

it is so we get “that look” without using hairspray or other products to build body or get the coat to flow smooth.

unless month end shows are cancelled, I expect to do full bath etc the night before and spend about 30-40 minutes prepping right b4 showing. No products used other than bodifier.

Serious European golden handlers for AKC spend more time in grooming area than others because coats are curly or otherwise needs more prep. That isn’t the same as bringing a filthy dog to the ring as I mentioned above with the grass stains and yeast stains on the elbows. But I’ve seen one handler working 1 -2 hours on the same dog before showing and that's pretty common. 

There's a breeder judge who has been very vocal about length of time dogs are groomed prior to showing, but he and his wife likewise spend more time grooming their dogs than everyone else! I've set up nearby and WATCHED.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

I think the “grass stains” you are seeing are the green floor reflecting off the coat, and as for the yeast stains, this past weekend I saw many goldens ring ready with yeasty toes, tear stains and elbow marks. But all clean and tidy. Can a judge really not see past a mildly yeast-stained area of the coat? I see veterans all the time with elbow marks. I did appreciate that out of the 53 Goldens entered this weekend, none were fluffed out like puffballs and many had wavy coats.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Emmdenn said:


> I think the “grass stains” you are seeing are the green floor reflecting off the coat, and as for the yeast stains, this past weekend I saw many goldens ring ready with yeasty toes, tear stains and elbow marks. But all clean and tidy. Can a judge really not see past a mildly yeast-stained area of the coat?


But is that dog a better dog if a judge can see indications of some less than ideal skin/coat issues? Tear stains especially are a concern.

These dogs were legit grass stained. Leading up to show time, they arrived and waited off to the side. This was an outside show.

What does it say about your pride in your dog if you are willing to show up and show a dog who has not even been bathed the day before? That's what I think about when I see grass stained coats.


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## LA152 (Dec 31, 2020)

Megora said:


> Robin, why do we bathe/blow dry etc dogs right before entering the ring?
> 
> it is so we get “that look” without using hairspray or other products to build body or get the coat to flow smooth.
> 
> unless month end shows are cancelled, I expect to do full bath etc the night before and spend about 30-40 minutes prepping right b4 showing. No products used other than bodifier.


....So, showing immediately post blow dry to achieve a certain look is natural? Why is anyone trying to “build body” in the coat?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

LA152 said:


> ....So, showing immediately post blow dry to achieve a certain look is natural? Why is anyone trying to “build body” in the coat?


When you leave the house in the morning to go to an interview for a great job - do you shower and blowdry your hair? Do you consider that to be the same as heavily using hairspray? Or wearing a wig? Are all these things the same equivalent?

Would you instead just go to that interview without washing up and go with greasy or oily hair?

No - of course not. 

I know people who have had their dogs show groomed before even showing in obedience - and they were shocked at how great their dogs looked just having a basic trim, bath, and blow dry. No products added to the coat. Nothing done like straighteners or anything. This breed is actually pretty straightforward when it comes to grooming. 

There's people out there who act like that is all the same thing as grooming a golden like a poodle. But poodles take hours to bathe and groom because of their coats. And there's stuff like pro handlers putting hair pieces on the dogs.... and using whole bottles of hairspray on the dogs.... Goldens are wash and go by comparison!


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

We bath and trim our dogs the day before the show and most just brush and comb before going in the ring although a water spray is sometimes used. It can be harder if the ground is really muddy and hard to get them clean! Annef


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

A lot seems to go into show coats. I am bathing and trimming Pilot before the trial this weekend but nothing like you all are talking about!


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Eevee gets weekly baths to keep her coat in show condition, but she doesn’t necessarily get bathed and blown out day of show anymore. She does get a bath the day before a show weekend every time and then she may get spritzed and fluffed day of if she has cowlicks or crate marks. With dryers not being allowed indoors these days she doesn’t get day of baths anymore unless there is outside electric. I need maybe half an hour to spritz, dry (assuming we have a generator), and comb day of show and that’s it. At her last show I didn’t even spritz and fluff because we didn’t have a generator.

Some dogs get full baths day of show to make them look bigger, but I do not have that problem. LOL


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> Some dogs get full baths day of show to make them look bigger, but I do not have that problem. LOL


I don't have that problem with Jovi, but I did with Bertie who was very lean when showing and may have to with Glee who is likewise a very lean dog. You realize that some or most will go back and spritz the dogs all over again in prep for 2nd shows (like 2 show in 1 day situations) or groups at the end of the day. I didn't go that far (LOL), but watch what handlers do, know why they do what they do, and see what you may want to do in order to compete directly with those handlers.

It's for when the judge is looking down the line for dogs that stand out in good ways or not.


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

Megora said:


> Robin, why do we bathe/blow dry etc dogs right before entering the ring?
> 
> it is so we get “that look” without using hairspray or other products to build body or get the coat to flow smooth.
> 
> ...


Kate,
I’m well aware that the trend in the US is to bathe and blow dry and then blow again right before going into the ring. I also know why it is done...my point was that it’s excessive and shouldn’t be what Goldens are judged on. I would like that NOT to be the case that the dog with the most fluffed up and blown out coat is the one that the judge gravitates to. And I’m certainly not saying that I want our Goldens to be trimmed to the extreme that some exhibitors go to in the UK and Europe these days, but I’m saying that it should be somewhere in between the two. And I have been to shows in Europe and competed in many AKC shows here with my own goldens (yes, I’m one of those crazy people handling my own European goldens in the AKC ring). 
What strikes me most about your reactions to the dogs you saw at the show is what a misunderstanding it is of golden form and function (per the standard and the original purpose of the breed). To get so caught up in a grass stain on the leg of a sporting dog at an outdoor show (gasp!), when dogs have been out on the grass waiting to go into the ring...is silly. And to imply that it signifies a lack of care for the dog is really sad. One might actually see it the other way around; that to keep these lovely, active sporting dogs off of grass or dirt all day at an outdoor show lest they might get the slightest stain on their legs or feet is completely against what the function of these dogs is supposed to be. Let’s not forget that dog shows are meant to evaluate how well dogs conform to the breed standard, not to pick the flashiest one with the most eye catching coat. And while the creative fluffing and blowing and sculpting for example to make the hocks appear 3x the thickness that they actually are might be pleasing to our stylized eye, it’s not correct for the breed. 
And let’s not forget the first paragraph of the breed standard:
A symmetrical, powerful, active dog, sound and well put together, not clumsy nor long in the leg, displaying a kindly expression and possessing a personality that is eager, alert and self-confident. Primarily a hunting dog, he should be shown in hard working condition. Overall appearance, balance, gait and purpose to be given more emphasis than any of his component parts. Faults-Any departure from the described ideal shall be considered faulty to the degree to which it interferes with the breed’s purpose or is contrary to breed character.

“Primarily a hunting dog”, so all the focus on the blow drying to get “the look” you mention is misplaced. (And as a side note, putting volumizer in the coat and then having to blow it dry just before going into the ring so that it still looks freshly fluffed...is not exactly much better than putting mousse or hairspray in the hair to get a certain look. It all means you’re not showing the coat in its natural state). The coat should be “dense and water-repellent with good undercoat. Outer coat firm and resilient, neither coarse nor silky, lying close to body; may be straight or wavy.” So yes, waves are just as correct as straighter coats, and since these are primarily hunting dogs, that means they need the texture in the coat, to repel the water when they hop out with the bird in their mouth. Coats that are blow dried excessively can often lose some of that lovely correct texture. “Excessive length, open coats, and limp, soft coats are very undesirable.” So while it’s natural to see a thick, fluffy, flowing coat and gravitate toward that dog, the experienced golden fancier, breeder, judge, etc. should know that it’s not what they should spend their time focusing on when it comes to the structure and judging of this wonderful breed. The coat, like every other part of the golden, serves a purpose.


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

Megora said:


> When you leave the house in the morning to go to an interview for a great job - do you shower and blowdry your hair? Do you consider that to be the same as heavily using hairspray? Or wearing a wig? Are all these things the same equivalent?
> 
> Would you instead just go to that interview without washing up and go with greasy or oily hair?
> 
> ...


It’s funny you should use this as an example to try to make your point. I actually do not blow dry my hair, never do. I have naturally curly hair and I wear it that way. I prefer to show off the texture that I was born with rather than blow dry my hair into a look it doesn’t naturally have. I think it’s a much nicer overall picture. 😊


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Megora said:


> I don't have that problem with Jovi, but I did with Bertie who was very lean when showing and may have to with Glee who is likewise a very lean dog. You realize that some or most will go back and spritz the dogs all over again in prep for 2nd shows (like 2 show in 1 day situations) or groups at the end of the day. I didn't go that far (LOL), but watch what handlers do, know why they do what they do, and see what you may want to do in order to compete directly with those handlers.
> 
> It's for when the judge is looking down the line for dogs that stand out in good ways or not. I've never had to with Jovi who actually had the opposite issue - he looked pretty mature at 9 months and needed very little grooming.


Eevee is nearly always the biggest bitch in the ring and I don’t need her to look any bigger. LOL


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

HaliaGoldens said:


> It’s funny you should use this as an example to try to make your point. I actually do not blow dry my hair, never do. I have naturally curly hair and I wear it that way. I prefer to show off the texture that I was born with rather than blow dry my hair into a look it doesn’t naturally have. I think it’s a much nicer overall picture. 😊


Heh, I have naturally curly hair too. It goes into stupid Shirley Temple ringlets when I let it air dry.....  

When I have somebody else do my hair and straighten and blow it out - I go around like I have a soundtrack playing. LOL.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

HaliaGoldens said:


> What strikes me most about your reactions to the dogs you saw at the show is what a misunderstanding it is of golden form and function (per the standard and the original purpose of the breed). To get so caught up in a grass stain on the leg of a sporting dog at an outdoor show (gasp!),


Did I say it was on the dogs legs? Or just on the legs? Nope. I saw grass stains on the dogs sides - probably wouldn't have noticed if the dogs were golden like the Crufts winning dog posted above..... because the dogs were so light (lighter than specified in the breed standard btw), everything stood out.










^^^ Do you see grass or dirt stains with this dog? Please note he had been rolling in grass and digging in the dirt and rolling in the dirt before I took that picture.










Oh, for fun. Same dog when he was a baby pup and brought with to his first dog show. You see that grass? I let baby pup and his dad run and roll in that grass between shows. No grass stains.

2019 went to the same place and the dogs found a "pond" in the middle of that field. All 3 dogs dove in and came back to the show tent muddy and wet. They just got baths and were dried in about 45 minutes. All 3. Their coats are no fuss - drying is literally just drying.

Where I mentioned legs - it was red stains on the elbows. 

As far as the rest of your post - I hear it all the time. There's so many accusations thrown around and digs at dogs like mine with assertions that we must be grooming our dogs all the time to get them to look like that. We DON'T.

Are there people that overgroom or oversculpt the dogs? YES. But they aren't everyone.

Are there people who spritz, groom, painstakingly dry/straighten, etc a dog's coat - keeping the dog on the table for 2 hours, etc...???? YES. Have seen them. One those would be a handler who is very successful at finishing European bred goldens in AKC.

Would it be the end of the world if it rains buckets and we have to show outside in that? NO.

I've shown my oldest boy in conditions like that - the rain and him shaking his coat out makes him look more "poof" than I could ever do with bodifier. And the really rainy day I remember, we did pretty good in the ring.  Same thing with the babies. And the judges can see that their coats are correct.


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## goldens9 (Apr 7, 2020)

Why do the show dogs have yeast issues? 
The overvaccination certainly causes severe yeast issues in many dogs, as the chemicals in 
vaccines damage the immune system.
Went thru this in the past, but once I did research and learned to avoid the yeast issues.
Yeast overgrowth is a sign of being unhealthy so I am surprised it is allowed at dog shows.
I thought to go to a dog show, the dog must be healthy.
The kibble causes severe yeast issues in many dogs.
Avoid those, and no yeast issues.
Or combat yeast issues with supplements.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

My dogs get all their vaccines + they eat kibble, no yeast issues.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

goldens9 said:


> Why do the show dogs have yeast issues?
> The overvaccination certainly causes severe yeast issues in many dogs, as the chemicals in
> vaccines damage the immune system.
> Went thru this in the past, but once I did research and learned to avoid the yeast issues.
> ...


Funny. My show dogs are vaccinated (but only when they need to be; titers otherwise), and they eat kibble. Never a single yeast issue.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Mine aren’t “show dogs” but from show lines. All vaccinations and they eat kibble with no yeast problem


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