# Is tug of war bad for puppies?



## EvanG

Generally, tug of war with pups is an unworthy risk. Some can get away with it without ill effects. But it's not worth the risk. Ask any trainer who has had a dog brought in for hard mouth. I've been a pro for over 35 years. Words to the wise. Good luck.

EvanG


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## ArchersMom

What I mean is if they're playing it together. I wouldn't play it with either one of them. It's just very hard to stop them when they're together.


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## EvanG

Thanks for the clarification. Then the only stipulation would be that they play it with a toy, rather than a fetch/retrieve object, and do so supervised.

EvanG


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## ArchersMom

That's a relief. Thanks!


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## Eowyn

I don't think it matters if they play tug of war with each other. I wouldn't let them do it with birds, but otherwise it should be fine.

What is the new puppies name? Can you post more pictures?


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## ArchersMom

Her name is Lottie, short for Charlotte. I believe she's a toller because she looks just like on but the people who had her before me said she was a Brittany.


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## EvanG

Cute pup. Looks like she could be Toller, or some mix. We end up loving them anyway, don't we?










EvanG


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## 3 goldens

When we got our first golden, my son bought the pup to train as a a duck retriever. At the time we had a 9 year old Irish Setter. I was not sure how Boots would take to having a puppy around---Boots had always been an only dog.

No sweat, he took to that pup like he was the mother. It was amazing to watch them together. They would play tug of war with Boots old rope toy and Boots at 95 pounds would sometimes let the 15 pound puppy "win". It was so much fun to watch Boots go forward and let Scooter back up like he was pulling Boots.

Well at 6 months Scooter was retrieving ducks. Neither Ron nor I had ever worked with a duck retriever, I had only worked with our English Setters when I was at home, so I knew how to train them. Was guess work with Scooter. First we had him retrieving toys. Season opened the first part of Nov. and we had him retrieving duck wings. Then we would slide a duck across the garage floor and he would bring it back to us.


First two times out he just went out with me son to pick up downed duck. The third time, Ron knocked down two teal and they went in different directions. One was headed for deeper water and one along the shore line. Ron just pointed at the one going down the shore and told Scooter to go get the duck. Ron went after the one headed for deeper water. He did not see Scooter turn and go after the other teal. I was pretty stunned myself. Ron shot the one he was after and got it and as he turned to come back to the blind he saw Scooter coming to the blind with the other wounded teal. Ron was in thigh deep water but after all these years I can still see jump jumping up and down yelling "good boy Scooter". 

Scooter never so much as bent a feather on a duck, not even the larger wounded pintails when they were still alive. He never put a tooth print in any of them. So all I can say is playing tug of war with Boots with a rope toy didn't hurt a thing--he had a very soft mouth despite all the playing. 

But I have to add that I totally believe some dogs do have natural soft mouths, others "hard" mouths. We have trained quail dogs that didn't even get a bird wet when bringing it back, others left tooth prints. They were all raised and trained the same way. 


Couple of pictures of Scooter. One was taken in our garage after hunt--he was 6 or 7 months old, and one of him ringing in a pintail (if my picture is correct, vision bad may have uploaded wrong picture) which is almost as big as him!

Picture is right one. Can't remember why my son is out there--maybe knocked down two ducks and the other ended up getting away. You will not the pintail Scooter is bringing back to the blind is still alive. How I loved watching him work. He dropped dead of heart attack at 5 yrs. 2 months and my son never got another one, said no dog could replce Scooter. this was way back in '99, but now he is talking about getting another one.


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## JessCDoyle

I do believe that it's more genetics although playing tug and lifting up a dog will definitely create a harder mouth. I've asked my trainer who also breeds tollers (Donna LaHaise) about tug when she started to play tug with my pup after training.. And she said it was fine, doesn't create a hard mouth if you're not too rough, and as long as it ends when you say so. Between two dogs is even better. 

But I'm no expert! I just know tug is Laika's favourite came outside of fetch so I can't take that away from her with just doing this as a hobby


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## K9-Design

JessCDoyle said:


> playing tug and lifting up a dog will definitely create a harder mouth.



OK I sat on my hands long enough 
I know Evan 100% disagrees and will site training way more dogs than me in a professional atmosphere and dealing with problem dogs --- and sticking on birds is a very common problem ------
but OMGOMGOMGOMG I play TUG WITH A BUMPER ALL THE TIME with my dogs with NOOOOO ill effects. 
Slater is a Master Hunter and now 2x HIT winner in obedience (woo hoo) and he trains in obedience not for food but to TUG ON HIS BUMPER. He is a maniac. He has literally ripped bumpers apart playing tug so rough. 
With birds he is as gentle and soft mouthed as you could imagine, has NEVER tugged on a bird, refused to drop, stuck, or any of the other bad behaviors that tugging is blamed for causing. Never. 
So I absolutely agree that with SOME trainers and SOME dogs, playing tug can perhaps exacerbate pre-existing tendencies to stick on birds. It might also be a rather counter-intuitive but genius way to teach them to OUT in a very heightened state of arousal --- hmmmm.....just like field training...!
Anyways do what you think it reasonable with you own dogs but it is not a one equals one relationship....


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## K9-Design

To me playing tug is kind of like the debate on fun bumpers. Some people and dogs do great with fun bumpers, some people and dogs don't. I gave up fun bumpers a long time ago. We play tug now. haha


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## 3 goldens

I grew up in a quail hunting family--my dad, his 2 brothers, my brothers, all my male cousins. I was the only female hunter. Everybody had English setters or pointers or both--we usually had both.

When we were younger we played with daddy's dogs--hitched them up to the radio flyer wagon and pretended they were horses, put packs on them and they were mules, etc. My two uncles swore that kids playing with birddogs ruined them--theirs were always penned. They were fed daily, but that was about it. Ours were free and us kids played with them (we lived on a seldom travel dirt road).

But you know what? Our dogs were the best hunters. my uncles often borrowed Mack and Lucky, Rascal, Duchess, Pixie, Patch, etc, etc. I would not be able to prove it, but I think because ours got so much attention they were more eager to please. They from wagging their tail while pulling the little wagon to wiagging their tails in the field looking for birds.

Maybe some dogs are ruined by playing with the kids, but somehow I do not think so, or it would rare. I think most things from playing tug of war to pulling a wagon can be different from dog to dog. And training is different from person to person.


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## EvanG

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” ~ George Santayana

You may gamble with it and win. Gambling is like that. Do as you will. But most serious field pros will discourage tug of war between dog & man. Once hard mouth has begun with some dogs it can be career ending. Good luck.

EvanG


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## HovawartMom

I play tug of war,with all my dogs but the deal is that I'm the one who stop the game and he listens and drop,everytime,I ask them,to do so.
My golden loved it and was very tenacious when playing with other dogs without EVER,being aggressive.
Actually,for the Hovawart,the TAN(Natural Aptitude Test) demands to see your dog play and tug as well as run behind a type of a lure toy so yes,I encourage TOW but on my terms.


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## gdgli

EvanG said:


> “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” ~ George Santayana
> 
> You may gamble with it and win. Gambling is like that. Do as you will. But most serious field pros will discourage tug of war between dog & man. Once hard mouth has begun with some dogs it can be career ending. Good luck.
> 
> EvanG


I agree. 

What I have seen in my training group: Those with dogs from a field breeding have created stickiness which I attribute to playing tug. I have seen them in obedience class and the field. Those with other dogs---dual purpose, agility, show---have less of a problem but I still have seen it.

Someone tried to help me when Buffy was a pup. She played tug with her with a pigeon. Buffy won, tore the head off and swallowed it. And I flipped out. Internally, that is. After all, the girl was trying to help me. I refused to train with pigeons after that and I never let that person "help" me again. No need to reinforce that pigeons can be eaten.


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## K9-Design

Yeah I wouldn't have freaked out. Go Buffy. 
I would be "condemned for repeating history" if I had created a sticky dog by playing tug, and continued to do it. I haven't.


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## EvanG

gdgli said:


> I agree.
> 
> What I have seen in my training group: Those with dogs from a field breeding have created stickiness which I attribute to playing tug. I have seen them in obedience class and the field. Those with other dogs---dual purpose, agility, show---have less of a problem but I still have seen it.
> 
> Someone tried to help me when Buffy was a pup. She played tug with her with a pigeon. Buffy won, tore the head off and swallowed it. And I flipped out. Internally, that is. After all, the girl was trying to help me. I refused to train with pigeons after that and I never let that person "help" me again. No need to reinforce that pigeons can be eaten.


Right your are. And you've accentuated an important point. This is less and less hazardous with less and less dog. The birdier and more driven the dog, the riskier the game is. Of course there is little discussion of the great benefits of it...because there aren't any that could not be achieved in some better controlled way.

EvanG


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## boomers_dawn

Great points, thank you. Another great reminder on tailoring to the dog.
I've had this debate - dog school teacher says don't do it but sometimes obedience people say use a toy, tug the leash etc.

Dee Dee has started tugging the leash in basic manners and I wondered if I should allow this as a reward. But with these reminders, as someone with energetic dogs and 2 past chompers, I think I better not go there


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## EvanG

Good choice.

EvanG


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## Alaska7133

I train sometimes with a local agility trainer. Her dogs run field trials and hunt tests along with agility and obedience trials. She has us use a specific tug toy to have the dog "play" with after completing a run through weave poles etc. As she tells us, I hear my field trainer (in my mind) telling me, don't do it. And of course both of these trainers are friends and talk about how the other wouldn't like what we are currently doing. 

I think is that dogs are situational. If the dog is running through weave poles and then you throw a tug toy, it's not the same thing at all if they chase a thrown bird. Every dog is different, but I do believe that they know the difference sometimes, but not all the time. The other day at a golden meetup, one of the golden people had a chuckit and a tennis ball. Lucy has never played with a tennis ball or chased a ball. I cringed when I saw that ball! I had only heard bad things about ball chasing. Lucy didn't go as crazy about the ball as I had expected and she pretty quickly forgot about it when another dog carried it off. I put tennis balls and tug of war in the same category, you never know what they are going to do and what complications they will bring.


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## K9-Design

Sweet. Now I know that I can safely play tug with my dogs because they are slugs. Well that opens up a world of opportunities. Thanks!


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## MarieP

boomers_dawn said:


> Great points, thank you. Another great reminder on tailoring to the dog.
> I've had this debate - dog school teacher says don't do it but sometimes obedience people say use a toy, tug the leash etc.
> 
> Dee Dee has started tugging the leash in basic manners and I wondered if I should allow this as a reward. But with these reminders, as someone with energetic dogs and 2 past chompers, I think I better not go there


Now on the other hand, Riot loves playing tug with his leash when obedience training. I find it an easy reward for him because it is instant and usually attached when we are heeling (we rarely heel off leash). He has never tried to grab the leash while in "work mode," only when released. I have no issues with tug, as long as he drops when I say so, which he does. 

So again, depends on the dog I guess.


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## ArchersMom

I've been letting them play tug for a while now and my golden's doing alright. He has had a few childish moments where he won't drop the toy when I tell him because that means puppy will win. Silly dog! I think it might make training the pup a little harder though. When I have Archer drop it she grabs it and will snap at my hand if I try to pick it up. She's a fiesty little thing so play biting is really not that much of a surprise.


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