# May have found our puppies...I would love your opinions!



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wow. She has a lot of females. Hips, while passing, are Fair. No elbows on any of them, and outdated CERFs. 
I'd pass.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

To make matters worse, she has some dogs, ie Hilltop Golden Paws Miss Daisy Do, on her website as having CERF number, and it is NOT in the CERF database. Ditto Golden Paws Pink Sassy Sou... 
I'd definitely pass.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

None have elbow clearances. That's not good.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Something is definitely not right here. Neither parents in the second litter listed have valid CERF clearances according to the CERF database. VERY odd and alarming seeing as they are listed on the breeder's website with CERF numbers. That alone would make me go elsewhere.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Amy,

I know you are super excited about getting a pup and you have come to the right forum for information. Please take what the above posters have stated into consideration.

I want to add that...I think this breeder is trying (she just might need to try harder). 

Important question for you to ask: Why is she breeding those particular ones together? Reputable breeders always have a reason of why they picked that particular sire (always to improve what lacks in the sire/dam).

Ask if she has bred them before? Ask to see pics and references (if you still choose to use the breeder)

Look at certifications on generations back too and not just the sire/dam.

Why does she not do anything with her dogs, for example, show/agility/hunt test/obedience? 

It just looks like she is breeding just to breed. I do not know the breeder from Adam and I am only stating facts from the website.

How long has she been breeding? Any known histories with the any of the previous puppies she has bred?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Actually, if you plug in the CERF #'s for Daisy Do and Pink Sassy Sou, they do have CERF's just 4 years outdated. On the CERF website, they omitted "Hilltop" so you can't find them that way(and they are totally misspelled on CERF). I have bigger issues with practitioner cardiac clearances... it is not the same as a cardiologist heart clearance. I could do practitioner heart clearances on my dogs myself, but I don't. I have seen dogs that were cleared by a practitioner, but then a cardiologist heard a murmur. Every Hilltop dog I checked with an OFA cardiac clearance was done by a practitioner, for me that is a problem. And they are not doing elbows, for me, another red flag. I also believe that breeders should compete in some venue with their dogs and I just don't see that here.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

Amy, in addition to everyone else's observations, I would suggest that if the breeder says "send pictures and tell me who the parents were", they are churning out far too many puppies. A good, reputable breeder knows who bought their puppies, so if they got photos from Jean and Joe Smith, they'd know that couple bought purple boy from the x by x litter. I would pass on this breeder!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Have to agree--too many red flags here. Really just looks like a puppy producing operation as opposed to a breeder dedicated to the good of the breed. I also find it "interesting" that some of her boys have names reminiscent of fairly famous dogs.

You can do much better--keep up the search!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Actually, if you plug in the CERF #'s for Daisy Do and Pink Sassy Sou, they do have CERF's just 4 years outdated. On the CERF website, they omitted "Hilltop" so you can't find them that way(and they are totally misspelled on CERF). I have bigger issues with practitioner cardiac clearances... it is not the same as a cardiologist heart clearance. I could do practitioner heart clearances on my dogs myself, but I don't. I have seen dogs that were cleared by a practitioner, but then a cardiologist heard a murmur. Every Hilltop dog I checked with an OFA cardiac clearance was done by a practitioner, for me that is a problem. And they are not doing elbows, for me, another red flag. I also believe that breeders should compete in some venue with their dogs and I just don't see that here.


Interesting, because I also attempted to find them in the CERF database using the AKC numbers as well as the CERF numbers that she posted for them on her website, and they did not come up... I'll check again and see if the numbers are also a problem... Given that it is the owners that fill out the CERF forms you'd think they'd get the names right...
Regardless, outdated CERF's are a big problem - especially as the owner of a bitch with PU. No elbows (hmmm...they are usually done at the same time as hips for a very nominal additional fee - makes you wonder if they WERE done but not normal - either way, not good...) Practioner heart clearances for me are also a problem. 
This one just has far too many reasons not to get a puppy for me.


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## letourneur (Jan 17, 2011)

Yikes!! 

This is exactly why this forum is so important. I am super-excited about getting puppies, so I really needed your unbiased perspectives and your experience with breeders. 

I went to the OFA website myself and plugged in all of those numbers and everything looked legit to me. How did you all find out how old those certs were? I didn't see that information anywhere. I just assumed that having a cert posted there meant it was up-to-date.

And I thought all of her dogs did have elbow certs...did I misread that?

Thanks for all of your input...and keep it coming! I obviously need others' eyes to see things more clearly (I'm blinded by cute puppies! haha). 

Amy


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Good for you, doing all your homework before you hold a puppy in your arms and allow your emotions to take over (instead of your rational brain)


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Mercedes does have hips, elbows and heart although heart is by a practitioner instead of a cardiologist. Her eye clearance as listed on the OFA site is out of date by close to 3 years. Neither of her parents had elbows done.

Sassy Sou has hips but no elbows-as mentioned, very odd since they are virtually always done at the same time. Very disturbing since her mother and sister do not have an elbow clearance either. Eye clearance is also very out of date as listed on the OFA site. Heart also done by a practitioner.

They may have updated eye clearances but you would want to request copies of the actual CERF form the vet used. And I have a real issue with heart clearances done by practitioners.

I drive 3 hours one way for eye clearances and ditto for heart clearances-there is just no excuse.

I think you can do better and yes-kudos to you for doing your research!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Yes, PG , you would think an owner would get their dogs' names correct.... but when I fill out those annoying CERF forms, I frequently get distracted and have to make corrections. I'm still trying to figure out how my pea brain got thru SAT's and GRE's!


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I may be alone in my opinion but I question breeders that will sell littermates to all but very e very experieced dog owners. Raising puppies in multiples is not an easy task. One that if not done well, can lead to troubled adult dogs.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I meant to say that,too, LibertyMe. I have turned people away who insist on 2 pups. A lot of my clients with littermates have big separation issues or in some cases (especially with girls) end up with 2 bitches at maturity who want to kill each other. It is very hard to train two at once... I have done it twice, no separation issues, but housetraining was a bear.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Yes, PG , you would think an owner would get their dogs' names correct.... but when I fill out those annoying CERF forms, I frequently get distracted and have to make corrections. I'm still trying to figure out how my pea brain got thru SAT's and GRE's!


I hear ya.  But, she's got discrepancies on her own website regarding the names of her own dogs. They are not regis.stered as "Hilltop's"... but rather just Golden Paws. And she's entered an incorrect AKC reg number for one. What a mess.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

LibertyME said:


> I may be alone in my opinion but I question breeders that will sell littermates to all but very e very experieced dog owners. Raising puppies in multiples is not an easy task. One that if not done well, can lead to troubled adult dogs.


I could not imagine raising littermates and I have two Goldens and a wealth of time off. Even the most experienced puppy owners would struggle substantially. Its not impossible, but it takes a substantial involvment far beyond what most normal families are able to provide. With Mirabelle she was our constant focus for almost 5 months after we got her. Between bladder infections and coccidia I had a heck of a time house training her. Double that and I'd have had a melt down.

If I had 6 months in a row off after recieving the dogs I MIGHT manage (and I've raised 3)


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## Montana's Mommy (Mar 10, 2009)

Word of Advise - Don't get a puppy from Hilltop - Trust me.


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## letourneur (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks for all of the advice. I am definitely ready to go back to the drawing board and find a better breeder armed with all of the knowledge that I've gained from you all. 

I am also rethinking our plan to get two puppies at once. My husband grew up with two goldens who were littermates and they shared a very close bond their entire lives, so he's settled on that being the only way to raise pups. 

We have four kids, ages 10-17, who are eager for puppies and ready to help with all of the work they will bring. And we homeschool the kids, so five of us are home all day nearly every day. But...even having just one puppy is a whole lot of work, as you all mentioned. So I'm really wavering between one and two. 

Okay...keep the opinions coming! I am a sponge. 

Amy


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My first 3 goldens were all 5 years apart. That way in theory, they did not all pass away at the same time. The theory worked and now I have golden # 3 at 11 years. The problem with littermates is that after they leave their birthplace and are stressed, they bond to each other. I want dogs that want to be with me above all else, not each other.... if you have never had a dog OR haven't had one in a long time, get ONE puppy. I would question a breeder who would be selling 2 pups to the same person and didn't discuss that with them.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

letourneur said:


> Thanks for all of the advice. I am definitely ready to go back to the drawing board and find a better breeder armed with all of the knowledge that I've gained from you all.
> 
> I am also rethinking our plan to get two puppies at once. My husband grew up with two goldens who were littermates and they shared a very close bond their entire lives, so he's settled on that being the only way to raise pups.
> 
> ...


 
I will not sell littermates.


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## Sophie_Mom (Jan 21, 2009)

I absolutely love my breeder - When we got Sophie, I made some comment about, "Wow, I'd love to have two!" He told me he would not have been willing to let me have two. I thought he was joking, but he went on to describe exactly what you are all saying. Lots of great experience talking here!


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

letourneur said:


> Hi! My name is Amy, and first let me say...what a wonderful forum! I have learned so much from all of you fellow golden lovers.
> 
> We have been searching for golden puppies in PA since we moved here last summer, and I think we may have found our breeder. She seems reputable (all health certs and pedigrees for her dogs are listed right on her web page...she even has links to k9data), she's been very easy to communicate with (and I've sent her a dozen emails! haha), and she has two litters of pups who will be ready to go home soon. In response to one of my many questions, she even added more photos of her current pups to her web page so I could see the females better. I thought that was nice.
> 
> ...


 
I hope you are not still going to use this breeder. A few years ago, she knowingly bought out stock from a well known mill in PA. If you need more information, please feel free to contact me privately.

Jennifer


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

Just get one at a time. You can alway get another a couple of years down the road. It is not true they keep each other busy so they don't get into trouble. The truth is they teach each other bad habbits and respect each other more then you. Train one and then get the second. I also like to space them for the years to come when the are old. Taking care of or having two old dogs pass at the same time is very hard. It is bad enough when you loose one.


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