# Breeding english to american



## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I'd say it's the same as any outcross. Physically, you'll get a lot more variation than you'd likely see with line breeding. You have totally different genes in play and can only guess what you'll get. You'll have a lower COI, which can be a positive but doesn't usually worry me. I'd be most concerned with the individual dogs. If the breeder is breeding these styles together just to make a buck, it'll be bad. If they've put a lot of thought into the pairing and are truly striving for a healthier dog, it's for a good purpose. My nearly 4 year old golden is an English/American style outcross and has had quite a few medical issues. I attribute at least part of that to the mystery that comes with breeding such different parents. I don't believe either of his parents had chronic ear infections, allergies or had ever experienced a seizure, but I could be wrong.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

The answer to your question "What are the positives and negatives?" The positives are all for the breeder because she is suckering the uninformed general pet buying public into thinking there is something special about a puppy that is labeled "English" when there is not. The negatives are all for the puppies which are being produced to make large amounts of money for a breeder doing the bare minimum with her dogs and selling the puppies like livestock. The negatives are for the buyer who is being taken advantage of by these shysters.

If a breeder is making a big deal out of the dog being "1/2 English" or "3/4 English" my advice would be to run in the opposite direction. They are all Golden Retrievers and they all originated from the same foundation dogs in Scotland. If I see 3/4 English on the website I'm 4/4 certain that this is not a breeder I want a puppy from. 

No reputable breeder chooses a dog to sire a litter because he's "1/2 English". A reputable breeder chooses the dog because she wants to improve her bitch's head for instance and this dog has a reputation for reproducing his beautiful head (beautiful in the eyes of the breeder) on his puppies. A reputable breeder chooses a sire for the litter because he has proven himself in the field by earning higher level hunt test titles or has also earned GRCA versatility titles and the breeder wants to strengthen those traits in her litter in an effort to produce "multi-purpose" dogs. Those are the things a good breeder mentions when discussing puppies, not what percentage English they are. A good breeder never says that her puppies are from "English American Champion Lines" - the breeder is busy competing with the dog she intends to breed, not resting on the laurels of titled dogs owned by other people 4 or 5 generations back in the pedigree.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Depends on the breeder. 

Keep in mind some people who are introducing English lines into what they breed - they are not outright attempting to reinvent the wheel. They are trying to get new blood into what they have - without losing what they have.

From what I've heard from some people - they really like what some English lines have to offer - but it does require a lot of care not to produce something that can't be shown.

So with these people, you don't have them trying to get "white coats" or whatever.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

SueD said:


> In my search for my perfect golden, I have seen a lot of people breeding 1/2 and 3/4 english. My question is; with the American and english being so different in their confirmation what are the positive and negatives in doing this? Their coat colors are amazing but I'm not purchasing for their color!
> I'm not knocking this I just want to get a few opinions on this before purchasing!


What crosses my mind always when I see these breedings being promoted- and what is typically the actual case- is that they are % Russian dogs, not English. So the whole premise is somewhat off. Very few Euro breeders in Europe will sell their best 'stuff' to the US. And we have very few breeders of this type here who do a good job of it unfortunately. For a few years it was so bad I figured there was a seminar on how to make big bucks suggesting it somewhere.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

nolefan said:


> The answer to your question "What are the positives and negatives?" The positives are all for the breeder because she is suckering the uninformed general pet buying public into thinking there is something special about a puppy that is labeled "English" when there is not. The negatives are all for the puppies which are being produced to make large amounts of money for a breeder doing the bare minimum with her dogs and selling the puppies like livestock. The negatives are for the buyer who is being taken advantage of by these shysters.
> 
> If a breeder is making a big deal out of the dog being "1/2 English" or "3/4 English" my advice would be to run in the opposite direction. They are all Golden Retrievers and they all originated from the same foundation dogs in Scotland. If I see 3/4 English on the website I'm 4/4 certain that this is not a breeder I want a puppy from.
> 
> No reputable breeder chooses a dog to sire a litter because he's "1/2 English". A reputable breeder chooses the dog because she wants to improve her bitch's head for instance and this dog has a reputation for reproducing his beautiful head (beautiful in the eyes of the breeder) on his puppies. A reputable breeder chooses a sire for the litter because he has proven himself in the field by earning higher level hunt test titles or has also earned GRCA versatility titles and the breeder wants to strengthen those traits in her litter in an effort to produce "multi-purpose" dogs. Those are the things a good breeder mentions when discussing puppies, not what percentage English they are. A good breeder never says that her puppies are from "English American Champion Lines" - the breeder is busy competing with the dog she intends to breed, not resting on the laurels of titled dogs owned by other people 4 or 5 generations back in the pedigree.


Exactly. Thanks!


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

Thank you ! I see more breeders selling on color than pedigree, disposition, conformation and quality. A buyer has to be so careful as well as the breeder! Let's of work getting a new golden!!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

SueD said:


> Thank you ! I see more breeders selling on color than pedigree, disposition, conformation and quality. A buyer has to be so careful as well as the breeder! Let's of work getting a new golden!!


Yes- its lots of work. But the reason you see less temperament, conformation and longevity for sale is that there are so many breeders who don't do it right... and that's because there are so many puppy buyers who approach buying a pup the way you'd approach buying a car or some other thing that is all the same within a type- all Mustangs for instance are the same. Dogs are living things and when puppy buyers realize they need to look past the aesthetic or cosmetic of it and look deeper, and quit supporting the 'white golden is cancer free' nonsense, then the breeders who don't approach their litters that way will be out of business. Any Golden can get cancer. Any Golden can get hip dysplasia. It's up to the buyer to support the breeder who's working hard to hit a high bar.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

I just wanted to chime in to clarify/reemphasize something... If you are dealing with a breeder who is emphasizing %s of "types" of Golden Retrievers in a litter, then I agree that's a red flag of a breeder that may be using a marketing strategy rather than breeding for the good of the breed. However, that does NOT mean that a breeder who has both "English" and American dogs in their pedigrees are not reputable breeders! I have been doing the research for finding a breeder for my fifth Golden for several months now, and practically living on K9Data looking at COI (coefficient of inbreeding), COD (cause of death) and longevity (age at death) (longevity is my personal top goal in looking for my next dog - I realize others have other priorities). Most of the dogs/breeding programs that are coming close to meeting my criteria are experienced, well-respected hobby breeders who are choosing to blend the lines they've had for generations with new lines that can be traced back to Europe (many fairly recent imports). A good number of the dogs they are breeding are earning their championships in Canada, but some are dual champions (Canada and America) and a few are American champions.

I'm saying this just to dispel any impression that there in anything inherently "wrong" about breeding "English" lines to American ones. If in doubt, ask the breeder why they've chosen to do so, and do your due diligence on all the other criteria (championships, clearances, temperament, health/longevity, working titles, etc.) just as you would with any breeder.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Honestly, I don’t believe there is that much difference structurally between them. At least, not if you look at the standards. My Suva’s sire is an Australian import and her dam is American.

Here is her sire

https://www.brandegold.com/p443030445/h689f6578#h3648b8af

Her dam

Pedigree: Sunnyglen Doolin Central Standard

And herself

Pedigree: Doolin's On Fiji Time

I like the very low COI she has, the great history of clearances behind her and the fact that she is a wonderful blend of both parents.

She was the product of a carefully researched, carefully planned breeding done to introduce new bloodlines and blend styles, without regard to color.

Given the right pairing, I would do a blended breeding in a heartbeat.


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## Melody P (6 mo ago)

I am interested in finding out more about the American and English retriever from a responsible breeder. However, I still have some homework to do and hope to learn from others here.

I agree with *pawsnpaca *who wrote my goal: "COI (coefficient of inbreeding), COD (cause of death) and longevity (age at death) (longevity is my personal top goal in looking for my next dog." This is my hope also, to find the right dog for our family. I know this will take time and research, I hope to learn from others in this forum.


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## cfm (Jul 5, 2011)

Hello, I don’t tend to offer replies to questions on here but I was just way too tempted with this one so here are my 2 cents.
I have done a blend breeding several times(European/American) and have been very happy with what I have gotten as far as temperaments, looks and health are concerned. I would LOVE to have a blend that becomes an AKC Champion. I would LOVE to have a full European pedigreed AKC Champion. I feel like we are boxing ourselves in with our American show pedigrees. It is harder and harder to find pedigrees with structure I like or need without running into similar dogs in the pedigree or health problems. I have shown Golden’s for awhile, I have had a top 20 dog, a Best In Show, JAMs at nationals. My next goal is a Euro or Euro blend CH. 
I recently attended a CCA with a dog from a Euro pedigree that I purchased from a good friend. I LiOVE this dog. I was thrilled that the CCA evaluators loved him too, and gave him really high scores. One of the evaluators actually looked at me and said “what is there NOT to like about this dog?”
Well to be honest I would change a few things but I can say that about any of the Champions I have owned. 
That evaluator was from the west coast and unfortunately is no longer with us but she told me that she likes to go “offshore” in her breeding program from time to time. Really? I had no idea but looked at some of her pedigrees and sure enough, she did. I like her use of “offshore” instead of European.
I won with him in Oklahoma last month. I would encourage using more European dogs in our American breeding programs.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I like the looks of him in the win pic - he is lovely.... congrats btw<:

I can spot 2-3 things that I don't care for in the other pictures... but I think most dogs if you are accounting for what needs to be there in a show dog, you are more likely to be looking at dogs, including your own dogs, more critically - even when they are generally nice.

Things I generally do not like with European bred dogs are the heads/earsets, expressions, flews, coats, legs/length/angulation - and then depth and trustworthiness of clearances. The looseness of skin around the face/eyes is another thing with tear streaks and round shaped eyes, etc. These are a lot of things to overcome when you are talking about the very typical european lines that most pet people in the US own. These are the ones with silvermines, etc. dogs 3-4 generations behind. Then there's some newer stuff which is imported directly from wherever which has even more problems....


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## cfm (Jul 5, 2011)

Megora said:


> I like the looks of him in the win pic - he is lovely.... congrats btw<:
> 
> I can spot 2-3 things that I don't care for in the other pictures... but I think most dogs if you are accounting for what needs to be there in a show dog, you are more likely to be looking at dogs, including your own dogs, more critically - even when they are generally nice.
> 
> Things I generally do not like with European bred dogs are the heads/earsets, expressions, flews, coats, legs/length/angulation - and then depth and trustworthiness of clearances. The looseness of skin around the face/eyes is another thing with tear streaks and round shaped eyes, etc. These are a lot of things to overcome when you are talking about the very typical european lines that most pet people in the US own. These are the ones with silvermines, etc. dogs 3-4 generations behind. Then there's some newer stuff which is imported directly from wherever which has even more problems....


Thank you Megora for your reply!
I understand what you are saying about clearance issues with some imports. Fortunately my boy has all 4 clearances and his sire/dam have good clearances as well as the 4 grands…
BVA, OFA and OVC clearances all having the big 4.
Mine had an excellent hip prelim, he finalized at a Good. His dam had Excellent hips so I was hopeful….
I think that some of the Canadian breeders that have European lines are doing a good job as well. Several have done very well in AKC shows over the last couple years. Let’s hope that more and more people decide to reach for correct conformation and less for color and maybe we will have more diverse genes to pull from. 
One thing I know from experience….one gets more flies with honey than with vinegar. We should all try to be kind to newcomers hoping to enter the show ring no matter what color their dog is.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

cfm said:


> Mine had an excellent hip prelim, he finalized at a Good. His dam had Excellent hips so I was hopeful….


The weak area seems to be elbows though because US/OFA is pass/fail whereas the BVA/FCI grades the elbows and breeders may/often breed dogs who if OFA would have failed elbows. My impression anyway.....

And I'm not pointing at your boy who again seems lovely. I'm sorry if my above comment seemed rude about him - that was not my intention. 

My criticisms were general about many of the dogs that I have seen out there and perhaps why introducing foreign lines into what they breed can be difficult even if they have good sources. Color is actually not the primary issue, even though that is the focal point for many looking for something different.


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## Melody P (6 mo ago)

cfm said:


> Hello, I don’t tend to offer replies to questions on here but I was just way too tempted with this one so here are my 2 cents.
> I have done a blend breeding several times(European/American) and have been very happy with what I have gotten as far as temperaments, looks and health are concerned. I would LOVE to have a blend that becomes an AKC Champion. I would LOVE to have a full European pedigreed AKC Champion. I feel like we are boxing ourselves in with our American show pedigrees. It is harder and harder to find pedigrees with structure I like or need without running into similar dogs in the pedigree or health problems. I have shown Golden’s for awhile, I have had a top 20 dog, a Best In Show, JAMs at nationals. My next goal is a Euro or Euro blend CH.
> I recently attended a CCA with a dog from a Euro pedigree that I purchased from a good friend. I LiOVE this dog. I was thrilled that the CCA evaluators loved him too, and gave him really high scores. One of the evaluators actually looked at me and said “what is there NOT to like about this dog?”
> Well to be honest I would change a few things but I can say that about any of the Champions I have owned.
> ...


Thank you for sharing! As a pet owner who has never shown or planned to show, I appreciate others' insight and knowledge. The blend of these two together (American and English Goldens) are beautiful, any thoughts from people who have them and any experiences with breeders who are responsible? For example, temperament, activity level, history of health so far, positives and negatives? 

Your baby is beautiful! 

Thank you for sharing your insight and experience!


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

Melody P said:


> Thank you for sharing! As a pet owner who has never shown or planned to show, I appreciate others' insight and knowledge. The blend of these two together (American and English Goldens) are beautiful, any thoughts from people who have them and any experiences with breeders who are responsible? For example, temperament, activity level, history of health so far, positives and negatives?
> 
> Your baby is beautiful!
> 
> Thank you for sharing your insight and experience!


I have been breeding and showing goldens (specifically European pedigrees) for close to 20 years now. I have formed relationships of mutual respect and knowledge-sharing with many golden breeders in the US and Western Europe, and there really aren’t major differences in health, temperament, or conformation between the two continents. There is, however, lots of variation between various lines of goldens regardless of their country of origin. I have seen much more variation in health/temperament/structure between different goldens in the U.S. or different goldens from all over Europe than I have between goldens from reputable, experienced breeders in Europe vs the U.S. So yes, you can get lovely dogs from combining European and American lines as long as you choose a breeder who has a clear vision/goal, a firm understanding of the breed standard, and a good knowledge of the pedigrees they’re working with. Like others have said in this thread, I would avoid any breeder who describes their goldens as “1/4 English and 3/4 American” or any of that nonsense. Goldens are all goldens that descended from the same gene pool originally in Scotland, and people who try to put much importance on the color or percentage of anything in the pedigree are either misinformed or they are trying to deceive you. My goldens come from a combination of Dutch, Swedish, Finnish, and British lines, and I have had great health and temperament in my dogs. I make a point to only deal with breeders who have similar goals to mine about how they raise their dogs and what they want to see structurally and in health and temperament. Mine are quite light in color, but it is not something I breed for, and I have chosen stud dogs of varying shades over the years. My breeding choices are always made based on what will complement the faults and virtues of my bitches and the strengths and weakness I see in the pedigree (in health, temperament, and structure) of the dog and a knowledge and hope for how it will combine with mine. Here are some recent photos of my goldens. This is three generations of our current bitch line.


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## missjolie (Jul 5, 2016)

Hi @HaliaGoldens your pups are gorgeous. almost as cute as mine  You are on the opposite coast as me and I'm wondering if you have any reputable breeder contacts in the California /west coast region that breed similar european coated goldens. Thanks


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

missjolie said:


> Hi @HaliaGoldens your pups are gorgeous. almost as cute as mine  You are on the opposite coast as me and I'm wondering if you have any reputable breeder contacts in the California /west coast region that breed similar european coated goldens. Thanks


Thank you. I would check with the other breeders on this list if you’re specifically looking for a golden with a European pedigree:








Breeder List


We Endorse and Support



www.britishgoldens.org




There is not much in California when it comes to reputable breeders working with European pedigrees.


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