# Suction



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

My question of the day. Suction. Why do some dogs have it and some not? Some dogs are sucked to water, some to trees, some to a chair or other object, or whatever. 

Last weekend I set up a pile about 100 yards or so away down a snowy road. Snow berms down the road on either side. No driveways interrupting the berms. Berms were 6' high and about 20' wide. Road is about 30' wide, so it was a long narrow run. I thought it would be very straight forward. Instead it turned about to be a good training session on suction. 

Riot just had to get on that snow berm and run on it down to the pile. I'd stop him and handle him back to the center of the road every time, but it was a battle. But he could not stop himself from going up a snow berm, for no good reason. All he had to do was run straight down the road to the pile. He just wanted to be on that berm. He's my suction dog. If there's something out there, he's going to get sucked to it. Poison birds, old falls, etc. Suction is his middle name. He always whistle sits nicely. I run him from either side, but doesn't matter if he wants to get sucked to something, he'll find a way.... But on 2 layer wagon wheel, no issues at all, runs to the correct bumper almost every time....

Ran Lucy and had no problems. She doesn't have any suction issues or avoidance of cover. Totally different dog and different issues. I can throw poison birds and run her under the arc of a previous mark. She's completely fine to go where I send her. Riot though, he makes me work hard to keep him in the right direction. Then he's so darn fast, that I really have to stay on top of the whistle!


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

what do you do to correct him for disobeying you


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I'm curious as to why you're training him to run down a road. Maybe Riot has been taught not to?


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Depends on what it is. In the case of the snow berm, I was completely surprised. So I whistle sat him on the berm and handled him to the center of the road. Then cast him back. Second time he got on the berm, it was whistle-nic-whistle, then back cast. He's at that age where he's becoming a butt head. When he's bad, I first try attrition, then whistle-nic-whistle. Sometimes there is nothing that's going to keep him on track. So I end up walking out to where he's sitting and casting him from there. He's all that right now, just full of vinegar. You might know the type, eh? He was also resistant to running from my right side this weekend. He tends to not sit his butt down all the way, or he swings in the wrong direction away from me, when he's on my right side. So it's a sit-nic-sit, usually several times before I get him to mind me. I'm just patient until I get what I want. But sometimes I have to do it over and over. He's quite the boyo right now. On one poison bird that was to the side, he wouldn't listen at all, so he got a burn for that. Got his attention, then handled him to the pile. Poison birds that are close are super hard for him. Off in the distance not so much. But I'm trying to see if I can get him ready for master this summer, and the new rule is 35-45 yards for poison birds. Way too close for Riot.

Maybe I should step up the reinforcement of rules? I tend to try attrition first, then collar. On the other side of the snow berm were small airplanes that were occasionally taking off and landing while we were training. So he really wanted to know what was going on on the other side of the berm. The runway was parallel to the road.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I'm curious as to why you're training him to run down a road. Maybe Riot has been taught not to?


The snow is too deep to run in fields right now. The only place shallow enough to work on is parking lots and roads. So you do with what you have. I was up north for one of my husband's races and hanging out near the race finish location waiting for him. So I trained on the road. I didn't have a lot of options. Dang snow this time of year.... Can't really do marks, you'll never find your bumpers...


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I think a lot of dogs naturally want to run down a road on the field, so he may have been taught not do that. I know Maisey would not run down a road.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I think a lot of dogs naturally want to run down a road on the field, so he may have been taught not do that. I know Maisey would not run down a road.


Interesting thought. Riot does tend to run sometimes down trails or roads, which I don't want him to do. I hadn't thought of it as him trying to avoid a road. I just had nowhere else to run him last weekend. Hmmm


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hi! Okay great topic. Also I feel for ya not having great places to set something up....how many times have we been pressed for time and have nothing more than our back yard or the little field up the road to make something out of.
Which I think was my first impression of your post....OK so you set up a 100 yard pile. What was your goal in training?
I have really developed this mantra, that let's make EVERY training session really mean something. Dogs only have so many miles on them. Obviously a young field bred dog has more miles available than a middle aged show bred dog  but I don't want to take advantage of my dog's mental and physical stamina and run him just to run him. That's just exercising the dog. It may look like training but if you're giving him something to do that really has no end-goal or meaning, you might actually be setting yourself backwards rather than forwards. I no longer set up drills just for the sake of drilling or because I can't think of anything else better to do. About the only thing I train as a "default" in the case of limited time, ground or mental power on my part are walking singles and big, long, simple blinds. Both are important for maintaining skills, both are enjoyable to the dog, both are rewarding the dog for doing the right thing and have low risk of getting into a battle. 
So -- back to my question, what was your goal in the 100 yard pile? What specific skill were you working on? 

Second, you set up a back pile. This was not a cold blind, the dog should know the destination 100% because hopefully you've marked the pile with visible bumpers and/or a visible stake, or let him see you walk out and plant bumpers. This is a drill setting. The dog shouldn't be guessing where he's going. Did he positively identify the pile before you sent him the first time? If not, then that's on you, you should have made it be more obvious that this is a drill and you're going to this pile. If he never saw the pile, he probably thought you were running a novel cold blind, in which case, attempting to go up the berm may have been what the dog perceived as the "point" of the blind. Since we typically would set up some sort of obstacle to overcome when running a blind, rather than just the most obvious path of least resistance, he may have been trying to be good. Then you handling him away from that obstacle was confusing for him. 

If he DID identify the pile before the first send, then really, it becomes much more simple....dog is being naughty and avoiding the task at hand, improvising, or otherwise out for a jog in the park and needs to get his head in the game. If I was 100% sure he saw the pile before I sent him, and he didn't make a beeline for it, it would be instant handling and I think he'd get one bad cast before the collar came into the mix. If a dog gets out of control like this and helplessly off line, rather than trying to save it with some big crazy cast, sit him, walk on the line to the blind until you are even with him, call him to you, and send him from there. Again, this is a drill setting, make sure he ID's the pile before you send him. 

Now wait -- you started this talking about suction. To me this scenario had little to do with suction. Suction is/are factors in the field (terrain) or your arrangement of marks that cause a dog to be pulled off line toward something. Easy examples are old falls, poison birds, unused gunners, previous blinds picked up, the shore, cover, all are calling the dog away from his true line and toward them. 

I think a lot of people call inanimate objects in the field suction because the dog is just being naughty and not taking good casts. That doesn't necessarily mean the dog was sucked to this object. There's no reason for a dog to be sucked to a tree in the middle of the field. A tree should mean nothing. At some point it's just the dog misbehaving and not suction. Put a little more "have to" in your training overall and suddenly the dog stops paying attention to these objects. 

(Although anecdotal story....everyone knows I am loathe to NOT use a stake at the end of blinds...I positively hate orange bumpers in the grass...I want NO HUNTING OR CASTING at the end of my blinds. So my training partner got in her head that at Master they don't put blinds in the middle of fields, they tuck the bird against a tree, clump of grass, downed log, etc and that for some reason her dog was deficient in finding the bird at the end of the blind because she was so used to stakes and white bumpers so she started putting all of her training blinds tucked up against the base of trees. After a few weeks of training like this on her own, we trained together, and did a few blinds that went between and past trees but the end of the blind was, you guessed it, a stake with bumpers in the middle of a grassy field. Her dog spent the entire afternoon ping-ponging from tree to tree looking for bumpers at the base of every tree. Trying to get clean casts or even stops was impossible because the dog had been TRAINED to view trees as a source of bumpers so for this dog, trees absolutely were suction. I wanted to get one of my blind stakes and beat her over the head with it. In a test, the end of your blind is a big juicy duck and it's sitting where 30 other dogs just picked up a duck so stake, no stake, tree or no tree you put them on the downwind side of it and they absolutely are not going to miss finding that bird.)

OK I think I remembered to type everything I wanted to type! Good topic.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Thanks for your thoughts. 

Working in a small space is always interesting. The photo is in my neighborhood. These snow berms are 1/2 the size of the ones up north. 
I set up 3 drills. I've attached a sketch of what I was up to, it's the attached pdf below the photo.
1. Is a simple pile with a distraction bird thrown over. Riot has a hard time with distraction birds. I thought this set up with the berms would make it a very controlled environment. 
My goal with Riot was to get him back on track running on both sides. I'm a left sided person, and running him on the other side isn't something I'm good at doing as often as I should. I got in some good corrections in when running him on both sides to make sure he understood what I wanted.
I also lapse sometimes on making him here and heel at the line and turn with me properly. I tend to get rushed at the line when training with other people, and I don't take the time to set him up as well as I should. Which is what the distraction bird helped me with.
2. Simple lining drill, I guess you could call it a 7 bumper lining drill. I just did it as a no-no drill.
3. 2 layer wagon wheel. Again a simple no-no drill. Riot was very good on this. But I only lined him, I didn't cast him to the various bumpers.

Ran Lucy on the same drills. She had no problems with any of them. She just gets bored very quickly and goes and rolls in the snow.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Stacey how wide and long is the street in your picture?


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

well, honestly, Stacey, you have a dog with a mind of his own. Trust me, I have one too. One thing I thought of is that when he was with the trainer he had strong consequences, I guarantee it. Now, with you, he knows the difference. He knows he can get away with stuff with you because he knew he couldn't get away with it with the pro. In order for you to train him effectively you have to hold him accountable when he flips you the dew claw. You can't give him a lot of slack and you can't give him the benefit of the doubt in a lot of situations. I told you that woman told me with goldens like ours they can count the times they know they can get away with something. Handling him first and then him going back anyway shows that he knows he can blow you off and stopping and handling isn't a form of pressure to him at all. That should tell you something, Stacey. I'm telling you this from experience. Everyone told me in the beginning, (even an experience person on this forum) that Proof had to be on total lock down from the minute he gets off the truck. He said Proof has to know Im the general ( I think that is the title he used) from the time I take him out of my truck. I'll be honest, that made me sad and I wanted Proof to have a good time. Now, I know exactly what they meant and when I really started getting serious he respected me more. Guess what? I don't have to be so stern all the time anymore and we have a much better time together then we did before. he respects me and I enjoy him being a good dog and having fun. We are a much better team.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

I don’t have a lot of experience training dogs. I’m on dog number 2. What for me is helpful about running a drill is a clear cut criteria and goal. What was the goal of your drill. Did you set up a lining drill and Roit changed it into a handling drill?


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

This is a really interesting conversation, I'm enjoying following along. And I have a new saying I'll be utilizing (flipping the dew claw)! I'm so guilty of starting my training sessions without having a clear cut goal, definitely something I need to fix. Especially as we get further along in training!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

hollyk said:


> Stacey how wide and long is the street in your picture?


The photo is just a street in my neighborhood, not where we were training. The street in the photo is about 25' wide or less and the berms are only 4' or so high. The street is probably 6 blocks long or maybe a little longer.

The road we trained on was 2,000 feet long and probably 30' wide. The berms were at least 6' high.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> well, honestly, Stacey, you have a dog with a mind of his own. Trust me, I have one too. One thing I thought of is that when he was with the trainer he had strong consequences, I guarantee it. Now, with you, he knows the difference. He knows he can get away with stuff with you because he knew he couldn't get away with it with the pro. In order for you to train him effectively you have to hold him accountable when he flips you the dew claw. You can't give him a lot of slack and you can't give him the benefit of the doubt in a lot of situations. I told you that woman told me with goldens like ours they can count the times they know they can get away with something. Handling him first and then him going back anyway shows that he knows he can blow you off and stopping and handling isn't a form of pressure to him at all. That should tell you something, Stacey. I'm telling you this from experience. Everyone told me in the beginning, (even an experience person on this forum) that Proof had to be on total lock down from the minute he gets off the truck. He said Proof has to know Im the general ( I think that is the title he used) from the time I take him out of my truck. I'll be honest, that made me sad and I wanted Proof to have a good time. Now, I know exactly what they meant and when I really started getting serious he respected me more. Guess what? I don't have to be so stern all the time anymore and we have a much better time together then we did before. he respects me and I enjoy him being a good dog and having fun. We are a much better team.


When I sent Riot to the pro for 10 weeks, the goal was to get Riot through double T and swim by. Which he did. I know that the pro was harder on Riot than I would have been, which is why we were stuck on double T and swim by forever. You sound like my husband, he tells me I let Riot get away with far too much. So it's back to the drawing board of being tough but fair. They are a lot smarter than we give them credit for aren't they?


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

hollyk said:


> I don’t have a lot of experience training dogs. I’m on dog number 2. What for me is helpful about running a drill is a clear cut criteria and goal. What was the goal of your drill. Did you set up a lining drill and Roit changed it into a handling drill?


I think that about sums it up. I was trying to clean up at the line mainly and it ended up being a casting drill, which it was not supposed to be. I think all the advice above it right on!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Last night finally got a chance to train. Our parking lots are compact snow. There's a school I use for pile work and drills. I was much more firmer with Riot from the moment I got him out of the car. He was much better. He did swing farther from the poison bird than I expected, but other than that he was very good. I think I've been lax when I get him out of the car and he thinks he's in charge. So yesterday I laid it on the line right from the get go. I was even able to whistle sit him 10' from the pile, which I've never been able to do before. So we'll tighten him up and get him down the road. I did articles with him at home afterwards and it was a disaster. Instead of finding the right article immediately, he just picked up the first article. Back to the drawing board.... I need to have more separation in timing of articles and pile work. Too close together muddies his mind.


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