# swim-by question



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yesterday one of the guys I was training with did a swim-by drill with his (new SH) dog. 
We were working on a small pond with very heavy cover in all but a few places. He stood on one end of the pond, and launched the dog from there. He threw a bumper out about 3/4 of the way across, sent the dog, when she got back to the halfway point he whistle stopped her and cast her OVER to the other shore, where there is a nice clearing. 
So far, so good.
BUT he had one of us stand at the clearing and whistle for the dog, call her name, flip bumpers, etc. to get her attention.
Now here's my question.
Tito has been taught to NEVER go to another person in field other than the person who is handling him, regardless of who that is at the moment. Sometimes Dan runs him, and I stand right near by, and he has to go only to Dan, or vice versa. 
So it seems to me that it's unfair at best, or bad teaching at worst, to try to have another person call the dog in to introduce swim-by.

edit to add....this is not how Dan did it with Tito, but he has technical ponds so it's easier to do it the way he did, with Dan himself moving along the shoreline....
What say you guys???


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well I am a novice in field training but I can say in all the training I have done it is considered incredibly unfair to call the dog's name (you or someone else) when you don't want their attention or them to come.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Not the way I do it--or anyone with whom I train!! I have identified the over pile for a dog that was having difficulties committing to making the cast when converting the T skills to water. It can be done with a gunner or by the handler if alone, with generally just a "Hey-Hey" and a bumper tossed to the pile from up the shore after the cast is given to help give the dog the idea, and the help is weaned off once the dog knows the pile is there.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I re-read what I wrote and it was confusing.
The person is calling the dog's name because they DO want the dog to come to them, not to the original handler. In swim-by, you are trying to get them to get out somewhere other than where they got in. In effect, you want them to "swim by" you and get out elsewhere.




GoldenSail said:


> Well I am a novice in field training but I can say in all the training I have done it is considered incredibly unfair to call the dog's name (you or someone else) when you don't want their attention or them to come.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok, I understand swimby I thought you were saying the other person was a distraction to training...oops.

In that case I am not sure it is a terrible thing if not overdone. When teaching Scout a new pattern blind I always have someone walk out there pick up a bumper say 'dead bird' drop it and walk away. It's about confidence before you let them run cold. At least this is what I am told When she start running blinds in the field I am told we will do the same thing for awhile until she gets the concept--because popping is bad! I can see having someone run over and identify the side pile to the dog if he is having trouble. The whistling and name calling might be a bit much though...


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

I'm very eager to post on this topic and clarify a few items regarding Swim-by. When I see *K9-Design *back on the board I'll post up considerable detail on it, along with some commentary about the OP. I think you'll like it.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Hey Evan, her ban has been lifted as of today. That's why we're all back posting...so post away!




EvanG said:


> I'm very eager to post on this topic and clarify a few items regarding Swim-by. When I see *K9-Design *back on the board I'll post up considerable detail on it, along with some commentary about the OP. I think you'll like it.
> 
> EvanG


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

What is Swim-by?
I won’t address the OP at this point. I want to start by clearing up some common misunderstandings of what Swim-by is, and what its purposes are. SB is one of those few aspects of retriever training about which more is misunderstood than is correctly known.
The late Rex Carr devised it, and some past client named it. It’s endured simply because it’s so effective, even when it isn’t done correctly! That’s pretty impressive when you think about it. Below is a link to a brief video about Swim-by; what it is, how it’s taught and used, and what its purposes really are. Most of this is outside conventional wisdom about it.




Most commonly, SB is esteemed as merely handling on return to tweak a cheated return. But SB is not really handling. More later.

EvanG


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just FYI, K-9 Design is VERY busy getting ready for the National. I don't know how much time she will have to post on the forum. I hope to hear from her before she leaves, but am not counting on it.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks for the video, Evan, it cleared up a lot of things. For one, having the dog sent to someone else on land doesn't even appear to be swim by! 
(Btw, we do TONS of corner cheating singles, it's one thing Tito's gotten pretty good at!). Now I understand why Dan runs the shore line with Tito, he's just telling him to stay in the water. Makes sense now!
That pond looks almost exactly like what I call Dan's cheating pond, if you've seen me refer to it here. Cool!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Don't do that with your dog that is not the purpose of swimby. Just what Evan said the purpose of it is to pay attention to *you* and the cast and carry it until you direct otherwise.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yikes, I didn't do it with Tito, this is Mr. Know It All in the training group doing it with his lab....I pretty much don't do anything my pro, Dan, doesn't tell me to do! 
How is Gunner's foot?????



Radarsdad said:


> Don't do that with your dog that is not the purpose of swimby. Just what Evan said the purpose of it is to pay attention to *you* and the cast and carry it until you direct otherwise.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Getting better, almost went back to work with him yesterday but I noticed he still has a change in his gate. So postponed to Mon. Vet said it was a sprain.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

ah, better let it rest at least until next weekend 



Radarsdad said:


> Getting better, almost went back to work with him yesterday but I noticed he still has a change in his gate. So postponed to Mon. Vet said it was a sprain.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

EvanG said:


> What is Swim-by?
> 
> Most commonly, SB is esteemed as merely handling on return to tweak a cheated return. But SB is not really handling. More later.
> 
> EvanG


So, moving forward, many trainers over the years have found ways to adjust or tweak returns as a means of decheating dogs. We all do something - mostly handle - to decheat the route out toward a fall, and that's certainly appropriate. Most of us are aware that a dog that cheats on land will probably cheat even more on water concepts, and that's the focus of this topic.

The decision is _really_ whether to handle on return, seeking a "stright out/straight back" solution to cheating, or to deal effectively with the central cause of the cheat; dry-mindedness. The latter is what Swim-by was designed to address. It isn't handling, even though it operates by using a couple components of handling.

If a dry-minded dog sees an opportunity to take less water, you can count on an obvious behavior; what we all call "cheating". How much they'll cheat is only a question of degree, and that will usually be determined by the degree of temptation in the presentation of factors.

If that dog has been trained and maintained to neutralize his dry-minded attitude through faithful use of Swim-by, he will not tend to seek land as a first reflex because he will have accepted the one true message of Swim-by; "more water". That message is conveyed through over killing our response to the dry-minded dog's behavior on return.

When a dog returns on retrieve, and turns toward shore, their behavior has sent us a message; "less water". Our response (vis SB) is "No; more water". We do that consistently, and eventually reinforce it with corporal corrections for persistence toward dry minded behavior. The result is steadily dogs that begin to put themselves on swim-by, which is a positive 'read' that they're becoming more neutral about what was a dry-minded attitude. Simply put, that results in their not even trying to cheat with any regularity. That not only achieves decheating, but also removes a great deal of friction between dog and trainer on water work.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Evan, that's an awesome explanation.
A question...what about a "wet minded dog"? I've got one. If a land mark goes near a pond (for example, we are about 20 feet from a pond, the mark is a straight line 50 yards out parallel to the pond) the bonehead is going to veer off course and try to head for the water rather than take the land route. I've had to work hard to get him to understand he can't ALWAYS swim to the mark....as I said in another thread, if Dan and I cross the bridge heading back to the clubhouse, Tito will avoid the bridge, jump in, and swim across instead.
Would you then not spend a lot of time/effort on swim-by with that particular dog?


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Thanks Evan, better explanation of several issues in swimby.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> Thanks Evan, that's an awesome explanation.
> A question...what about a "wet minded dog"? I've got one. If a land mark goes near a pond (for example, we are about 20 feet from a pond, the mark is a straight line 50 yards out parallel to the pond) the bonehead is going to veer off course and try to head for the water rather than take the land route. I've had to work hard to get him to understand he can't ALWAYS swim to the mark....as I said in another thread, if Dan and I cross the bridge heading back to the clubhouse, Tito will avoid the bridge, jump in, and swim across instead.
> Would you then not spend a lot of time/effort on swim-by with that particular dog?


I would set that up and whistle and no him water handle him to the mark. Repeat then throw another mark on the other side of the water where he has to take it. Go to the other side of the pond run another land mark and then water and work with him until he knows the difference of when to take the water and when not to.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

He's really gotten pretty good at understanding that wetter isn't always better, but it took us a lot of exactly the type of thing you describe to keep him out of the water. 
Dan says there are lots worse problems to have than that one!



Radarsdad said:


> I would set that up and whistle and no him water handle him to the mark. Repeat then throw another mark on the other side of the water where he has to take it. Go to the other side of the pond run another land mark and then water and work with him until he knows the difference of when to take the water and when not to.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Thanks Evan, that's an awesome explanation.
> A question...what about a "wet minded dog"?


Blessed art thou! What a nice problem to have.


hotel4dogs said:


> I've got one. If a land mark goes near a pond (for example, we are about 20 feet from a pond, the mark is a straight line 50 yards out parallel to the pond) the bonehead is going to veer off course and try to head for the water rather than take the land route.


I'll grant you this is an unusual problem. But it's still a nice one to have. In some important ways it isn't much different from the usual in the long run. Overall, you want to train your dog to go straight no matter what's along the way in a route. That's why we don't just decheat for one factor.

We train them to go through some obstacles, over others, and/or between certain others in order to cultivate straight routes where the factors entice them to cheat. Having a dog that is drawn to water should ease the issue, even though it currently exists in a form that causes diverted routes.

I would suggest the same solutions as a dry-minded dog, inasmuch as the drill work will be repetitious. Drills like Split Drills, Chair Drills, and Chinese Drills - especially the latter - will all promote straight routes. Chinese drills work well for dogs like yours because it's so easy to design them with fragments of water in multiple routes. They simply must go straight in spite of the water, more than _because_ of it. In other words, if the dog is drawn toward the water on a given route, he will be effectively drawn off his route, and will need to be handled. Corrections as usual for failures to Go, Stop, or Come as called. How are we doing so far?


hotel4dogs said:


> I've had to work hard to get him to understand he can't ALWAYS swim to the mark....as I said in another thread, if Dan and I cross the bridge heading back to the clubhouse, Tito will avoid the bridge, jump in, and swim across instead.
> Would you then not spend a lot of time/effort on swim-by with that particular dog?


As much as is needed to firmly establish the skill. Rex was asked at his seminar in Canada with Dave Rorem years ago - "What's the purpose of Swim-by?" His first answer was; "Control". I think the fact that is was a one word answer went over many heads. But that one word is a big one!

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> Thanks Evan, that's an awesome explanation.
> A question...what about a "wet minded dog"? I've got one. If a land mark goes near a pond (for example, we are about 20 feet from a pond, the mark is a straight line 50 yards out parallel to the pond) the bonehead is going to veer off course and try to head for the water rather than take the land route. I've had to work hard to get him to understand he can't ALWAYS swim to the mark....as I said in another thread, if Dan and I cross the bridge heading back to the clubhouse, Tito will avoid the bridge, jump in, and swim across instead.
> Would you then not spend a lot of time/effort on swim-by with that particular dog?


 A wet minded dog? Well, I guess I'm in good company!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yet another reason field dogs should also do agility! They are used to jumping over/going thru all sorts of weird looking things and don't even flinch when they have to do so! 

I recently learned what a Chinese drill is, and I really like it. Not that I've done it, but it's high on my "to do" list.

Control. Yes. I like that answer!



EvanG said:


> We train them to go through some obstacles, over others, and/or between certain others in order to cultivate straight routes where the factors entice them to cheat. Having a dog that is drawn to water should ease the issue, even though it currently exists in a form that causes diverted routes.
> 
> I would suggest the same solutions as a dry-minded dog, inasmuch as the drill work will be repetitious. Drills like Split Drills, Chair Drills, and Chinese Drills - especially the latter - will all promote straight routes. Chinese drills work well for dogs like yours because it's so easy to design them with fragments of water in multiple routes. They simply must go straight in spite of the water, more than _because_ of it. In other words, if the dog is drawn toward the water on a given route, he will be effectively drawn off his route, and will need to be handled. Corrections as usual for failures to Go, Stop, or Come as called. How are we doing so far?As much as is needed to firmly establish the skill. Rex was asked at his seminar in Canada with Dave Rorem years ago - "What's the purpose of Swim-by?" His first answer was; "Control". I think the fact that is was a one word answer went over many heads. But that one word is a big one!
> 
> EvanG


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Here's another cheating single with Swim-by.





 
...and another.





 
EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

thanks for the videos, Evan! Now THOSE are right up Tito's alley, just the kind of retrieves he loves!
I notice in the second video it's running water, not swimming water. I have found a pond near here that is fairly narrow and shows potential, but it's not deep enough for him to swim. Would you run the drills there anyway?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I have found a pond near here that is fairly narrow and shows potential, but it's not deep enough for him to swim. Would you run the drills there anyway?


Yes, but balance your cheating work in ponds with swimming water - especially to keep up your Swim-by work. In addition, look for more complicated water; more re-entries, more cheating exits, etc.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks, that's good to know.
Dan has I believe 5 technical ponds at the hunt club, so he does the complicated stuff with Tito weekly (he's finally back from the Grand this week!) but I am looking for a little practice between now and when our water season ends a few weeks from now, which is why I was checking out this particular pond. Maybe we can go there once or twice and try it out.




EvanG said:


> Yes, but balance your cheating work in ponds with swimming water - especially to keep up your Swim-by work. In addition, look for more complicated water; more re-entries, more cheating exits, etc.
> 
> EvanG


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