# the dreaded ecollar



## ty823 (Feb 7, 2006)

Greg- I'm glad to see I'm not the only one. 
I had a long debate with my wife on this and she said I would have to test it on myself before I used it on Lucy. I only had the guts to try it up to level 3 (of 10) so that is the highest level I have it set on for her. 
And I only use it as a last resort. A few times while we were out hunting, she has taken off after a rabit and would have chased it right across the highway if she didn't have the coller on. 95% of the time, she obeys my commands, but for the other 5% of the time when she gets that wild look in her eyes, it is literally a life saver.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Agreed. I don't have one, and would never use it on a sensitive dog like a Whippet (a prong collar makes him scream, even if it has no leash attached!!) but I would consider using one for recalls on my Golden. I just can't afford it! Excellent post.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

greg bell said:


> (actually my first one i tested on the cat coz I didnt want to hurt my dog)


:lol:


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## heidi_pooh (Feb 9, 2006)

Rick, you are such a meanie!

$500 on a collar??????? Thats more than I spent on the dog!!!


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Greg: I myself have never used the ecollar, I believe you use what is best for you and your dog and what works! We use the dreaded prong collar on Maggie, which she has responded very well to, where others didnt.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I am not anti prong at all. If you don't know how to train a dog, it's kinder to use a prong which self corrects than to join the pack of morons who let their dogs gag on choke chains. I prefer chokes, but that is b/c I actively TRAIN my dog if she is wearing one. I have never had a dog that couldn't/wouldn't walk nicely on leash to the point of needing a prong. I can't even imagine that, but I have used them the first day or two on certain untrained rescue dogs.
Most Goldens can take a prong. I don't think they're cruel at all. Except for as mentioned above on a super sensitive dog like a Whippet or Greyhound. But Greyhound and kin respond to a light tug on a buckle collar the way most Goldens would respond to a hard jerk with a prong.


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## goldencity (May 26, 2005)

Ok, here goes! I have posted on this subject before, and I guess you know what I'm going to say.
I dont like shock collers, I prefer to use positive methods when training. I have 3 dogs at the moment and have kept GRs for 26 years, and have managed without these things.
Now we do have a large unfenced garden to our french house and I was interested to hear about an "invisible" method of keeping dogs in, so I did some reasearch.....and decided against. And before you say but this is about collers not fences, the links which follow are about both. 

There are moves to have them banned by the UK government, the RSPA condem them,The Uk kennel club wants them banned, the police no longer use them so read the following [esp. the lnks at the bottom of the 2nd link] 

I dare say that some feel they do make training easier, but at what cost?

http:/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/744922.stm

scallywagsdogs.com/proteam.html


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I am not anti prong at all. If you don't know how to train a dog, it's kinder to use a prong which self corrects than to join the pack of morons who let their dogs gag on choke chains. I prefer chokes, but that is b/c I actively TRAIN my dog if she is wearing one. I have never had a dog that couldn't/wouldn't walk nicely on leash to the point of needing a prong. I can't even imagine that, but I have used them the first day or two on certain untrained rescue dogs.
> Most Goldens can take a prong. I don't think they're cruel at all. Except for as mentioned above on a super sensitive dog like a Whippet or Greyhound. But Greyhound and kin respond to a light tug on a buckle collar the way most Goldens would respond to a hard jerk with a prong.


Maggie's trainer is the one that thought it would be best for her, she is very hyper and didnt walk nicely on a leash. She only wears it doing training and walks.. since using it, she walks very nicely with very few corrections.She doesnt seem to mind it what so ever..as soon as I pick up the prong she runs over and sits just wagging that tail.


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## goldencity (May 26, 2005)

I must say I'm not talking about prong collers, I'm not sure what they are, just the shock kind.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

15.000 VOLTS!!!!!!!!!!.. I believe I said in my statement that these could be used as a tool of abuse.. these same people hung a dog from a lead and kicked it to death.. so maybe they should outlaw leashes and boots as well.. 
and I also stated that if you cannot train a dog without one, you cant train a dog with one.. 
and this statement of "at what cost".. believe me..my dogs are very well adjusted pets as well as hunting and field competitive dogs.. they ride in the truck to dairy queen and hop on the couch with me to watch basketball.. they are sweethearts just like the rest of the golden world. I have not traumetized my dogs with 15,000 volts of electricity.. 
you have a preconceived notion as to what they are and nothing or nobody is going to change your mind.
I WOULD NEVER EVER ABUSE AN ANIMAL..NEVER. 
There are those in my sport that do and that is unfortunate. But the vast majority of participants have absolutely no use for people like that. Virtually everyone that runs trials or hunt tests got into it from a love of dogs... 
If you were watching me run my dog and I did push the button, you would never know it unless I told you.. 
and I also hunt and shoot ducks..


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## LauraEyes2 (Sep 16, 2005)

greg bell said:


> 15.000 VOLTS!!!!!!!!!!.. I believe I said in my statement that these could be used as a tool of abuse.. these same people hung a dog from a lead and kicked it to death.. so maybe they should outlaw leashes and boots as well..
> and I also stated that if you cannot train a dog without one, you cant train a dog with one..
> and this statement of "at what cost".. believe me..my dogs are very well adjusted pets as well as hunting and field competitive dogs.. they ride in the truck to dairy queen and hop on the couch with me to watch basketball.. they are sweethearts just like the rest of the golden world. I have not traumetized my dogs with 15,000 volts of electricity..
> you have a preconceived notion as to what they are and nothing or nobody is going to change your mind.
> ...



i think we struck a nerve


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Greg... Are you nuts?  
This sounds like one of those hot button issues to me! 
One word from an engineering type (as I won't let it be known where I stand on this issue). It is not the voltage that does the harm, it is the current (amps) that is a measure of the damage the collar could do. Although the collars can generate a lot of voltage, they result in almost no current flowing through the animal's body. In fact, they are incapable of generating a harmful current. While they can inflict a lot of pain, they can do no physical harm to the animal. The voltages generated by the collar are high to overcome the electrical resistance of the dogs coat, the air space between the prongs on the collar and the dogs skin, as well as the relatively high resistance of the dog's body. While there is no way the collars could cause physical harm, I can't comment on the psychological effects.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Sadly, many training clubs and groups here ban prongs, too. My club will kick you out if you walk in with a choker, or so I am told. I think like anything in life, such extremes are not good.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Oh lord don't bring up hunting, then we'll really get attacked 

Nothing is more beautiful to me than seeing Goldens retrieve and sighthounds course live game. I like functional dogs that can do what which they were bred for. 

But I know not everyone agrees, and that's okay...


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

goldencity said:


> There are moves to have them banned by the UK government, the RSPA condem them,The Uk kennel club wants them banned, the police no longer use them so read the following [esp. the lnks at the bottom of the 2nd link]
> 
> I dare say that some feel they do make training easier, but at what cost?
> 
> ...


What might be banned isn't necessarily the equipment...but a philosophy that is age old and has worked since the time of man. Pure positive training is a nice concept. Its untested accept for the rather few who can use it. 

Alot of hype and emotion can cause much damage.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

vrocco1 said:


> Greg... Are you nuts?
> This sounds like one of those hot button issues to me!
> One word from an engineering type (as I won't let it be known where I stand on this issue). It is not the voltage that does the harm, it is the current (amps) that is a measure of the damage the collar could do. Although the collars can generate a lot of voltage, they result in almost no current flowing through the animal's body. In fact, they are incapable of generating a harmful current. While they can inflict a lot of pain, they can do no physical harm to the animal. The voltages generated by the collar are high to overcome the electrical resistance of the dogs coat, the air space between the prongs on the collar and the dogs skin, as well as the relatively high resistance of the dog's body. While there is no way the collars could cause physical harm, I can't comment on the psychological effects.


I totally understand and agree with what you say. You can do a lot more physical damage to a dog with a stick or a choke collar than you can a collar. 
The 15,000 volts is akin to static electricity like you get from walking across the carpet and touching the door knob. However, lightning is also static electricity and we know the damage that it can do. If you put enough potential across somthing and can maintain that potential you can do some damage. But I am not talking about that much potential. I am not even talking hurting the dog. Put a good modern collar on level one, put it on your arm, and push the button. You have to really focus to detect it. This is exactly how I was convinced to use one after my first three dogs. I let a guy put one on my arm and set it off.. it just wasnt that big a deal. 
And yes.. I am nuts.. Laura has proclaimed me as such. That I will not argue with.


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## LauraEyes2 (Sep 16, 2005)

greg bell said:


> And yes.. I am nuts.. Laura has proclaimed me as such. That I will not argue with.



Thats right! LOL


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## PeggyK (Apr 16, 2005)

Well, maybe I should be shot-we use both and invisible fence and ecollars on our dogs!!!! We only got the ecollar, when our OAKLEY was OUT OF CONTROL when someone came in the house. Jumping, prancing and almost KILLING them with love. We were afraid he'd hurt one of the grandkids. I had been in obedience classes for years, but he was a tough one-not bad, just overly exhuberant!! We bought a good ecollar from Tritronics and all we needed to use was the tone(beeping sound just like the invisible fence warning) and it worked like a charm. I think all training is individual and what works for one dog isn't necessarily good for another. And I think all of us here at the forum would NEVER do something to harm our dogs. I was just thinking how I used the prong collar on my first Golden Boomer, because he was so very strong-he LOVED it cause it meant we were going somewhere. I guess some people would have me arrested for my training tools. Ha,HA


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Just as a point of reference... static electrical charges are usually 'pegged' at somewhere between 25,000 and 35,000 volts according to the references I just found. However I will tell you the feeling of a shock delivered by one of these devices is not the same as a static electric shock off someone's finger tips... I've tried it plenty of times, to me it feels like a bee sting or a slow pin prick. But remember the degree of 'shock' can be modulated and it is paired with a sound... which means that after a relatively few actual 'shocks' (called a "nick" by the practitioners) the sound is all that becomes necessary... it comes to have the same effect as if an actual shock were being delivered.


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

I have an e-collar and I don't believe you can advance to a high level of competition without it (talking field and hunt here). I am currently only using the ear pinch (yeah...another can of worms :doh: ) and it has only gotten me so far. I am set to attend the Pat Nolan "field" seminar this June. He teaches the correct way to use the collar. I do have one BTW. It's a Dogtra 1200NCP. The NCP stands for Nick, Constant and Pager. I'm sure you can figure out the nick and constant feature. The pager is a vibrating setting warning of the "nick" if they do not comply with the command. I don't think I would EVER use the constant.

I also plan on actually hunting with my bitch once she is fully trained and we have our title. Just have to get vrocco1 off his butt to take me  

For anyone wanting to see Pat's website here it is http://www.ponderosakennels.com/index.htm


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## VeronicaLovesHerGoldens (May 27, 2005)

After reading about the ecollar it does sound like something that would work on my "exciteable" 16-month old Zazoo! He tends to pull on the leash when I walk him (even after training classes!) but he really is eager to please - he just gets confused at times as to what is expected of him.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

monomer said:


> Just as a point of reference... static electrical charges are usually 'pegged' at somewhere between 25,000 and 35,000 volts according to the references I just found. However I will tell you the feeling of a shock delivered by one of these devices is not the same as a static electric shock off someone's finger tips... I've tried it plenty of times, to me it feels like a bee sting or a slow pin prick. But remember the degree of 'shock' can be modulated and it is paired with a sound... which means that after a relatively few actual 'shocks' (called a "nick" by the practitioners) the sound is all that becomes necessary... it comes to have the same effect as if an actual shock were being delivered.


The shock from the e-collar is not in fact static electricity. Static electricity is caused by the equalization of the potential difference between two bodies. The static discharge happens instantaneously, and is of a very, very short duration. Even though the voltage is high, the duration is so short that little perceived pain results.
The e-collar generates its charge from an active (rather then a static) source. Because it is active, the duration of the shock is much longer, and is perceived as more painful. 
I am not arguing against the e-collar. I am arguing that the e-collar can cause no damage to the dog. To me, it is the equivalent of hitting your hand with a rolled newspaper and generating a loud noise. It's scary, but does no physical harm.

BTW... Lightning is capable of generating almost unlimited current.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

note that I said that it was AKIN (similar) to static electricity. 
Static electricity is when the charges are just that..static.. when the potential between the charges or a ground can cause dielectric breakdown the indeed produce a current.. however, unlike when you have a power source connected to maintain that potential, the amount of discharge..the number of free electrons.. is limited and thus the current is of short duration.. 
this thread sure took a strange twist.. probably a good thing...


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Wow ... well I have no CLUE about all the electricity stuff, but I'm taking physics next year so maybe I'll learn it then 

In cases that are a life-or-death situation, I have no problem with the use of corrections like e-collars. If you live in an area where dogs will get shot by a ******* for chasing livestock, by all means use an e-collar. If your dog jumps 7' fences, first I would try putting a piece of free-rolling PVC pipe on top of the fence so that the dog can't use the fence to help him over, but if he's clearing it cleanly or otherwise can somehow get over the fence, you'll have to use an e-collar. If for some reason you HAVE to walk your dog off-leash near busy roads, you might want to use an e-collar to reinforce your recall. Here is a great article about punishment http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/bidurfee.txt

I understand that British field trainers generally don't use e-collars, and instead will haul butt and/or swim to keep their dogs from getting to the wrong bird. That doesn't sound like much fun, and I don't know about those British but I sure as heck can't outrun Dusty when he's chasing a bird. Every so often he decides he's a retriever and goes running off after a bird or swimming at a duck that is like half a mile out on a lake. Wierd dog.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

actually, the thread ended up a lot more civil that I was afraid it might.. good for you guys.. sometimes we can just agree to disagree without getting personal..


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

I think there a tool used by some, just like any other tool we would use on one of our dogs. I don't think all dogs need them though. Bianka would never need this, but now Kody.....I truely believe could infact benefit from one's use. He's actually very good, loads up, comes on command and such but I am always worried about a rabbit cause his prey drive is really really strong. He's the toughest golden i've ever raised! He is field lined and Mama and Daddy have titles.

I do own a tape on training for the e-collar with OB, but not picked up a collar. I'm thinking this summer of putting him in the academy, the trainer there is certified in all sorts of things and also trains in the ecollar. She trains in Retrieval, Tracking, Utility, Scent Detection, Personal Protection and your normal basic OB. I'd like to take him into to both Retrieval and Tracking. He's got a super nose on him.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

greg bell said:


> actually, the thread ended up a lot more civil that I was afraid it might.. good for you guys.. sometimes we can just agree to disagree without getting personal..


That is why I tried to turn the thread in another direction


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

greg bell said:


> actually, the thread ended up a lot more civil that I was afraid it might.. good for you guys.. sometimes we can just agree to disagree without getting personal..


It is nice to see a hot topic discussed rationally. I personally don't have an opinion on the subject, only because I haven't had the need yet to look into it further.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

See I'm being good  But that seriously is my opinion on e-collars, I'm not just saying that to be good ...


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

good for you and now tell us about clickers... and I promise to be nice..
actually I have a clicker that someone gave to me... 
And I have become more open minded about behavorists or whatever after watching Caesar.. 
The bottom line here is that everyone on this forum cares about their dogs and wants what is best for them.. 
the important thing in training is that folks get out there and do it whether they use clickers, a prong collar, ecollar, or dog candy...


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## goldencity (May 26, 2005)

Katieanddusy is right, you dont see ecollers here in the UK- and theres lots of dogs used for hunting and shooting belive me!
I looked into the possibilty of an invisible fence when we got our house in France, the large area of land is not fenced, our neighbours there keep stock, lots of wildlife etc and it seemed like a good idea- I could let the dogs roam about without worrying if they went off.

But, when I did some research I changed my mind- and have shared some of the reasons why with you on here. I'm not saying you dont care for your dogs or attacking any one personally- but I was prepared to accept the advice of respected animal experts in helping me to make up my mind.

I use positive rewards for my dogs and they do work- I have never smacked them, or hit them with a newspaper- its hard work sometimes when training, but worth it!


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