# The stubbornness continues...



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Koda's stubbornness is getting worse. I am working with her on it now more than I did last time. She got better quick last time so I didn't stress but I am taking it seriously this time. The last two mornings it took me 10-15 minutes to take her out to potty and get her back inside. She doesn't want to go potty, just wants to hang out outside. So I tlel her to go potty and she lays down LOL. It is funny when I look back at it but in the moment I am so annoyed. Trying to get her up is impossible as she rolls onto her back. She thinks its all a game. So yesterday I got her inside, went and grabbed some ham and took her back out! It worked! Today my hubby offered to let her out for the last time before we left...i told him to take ham and he was too cocky and said he didn't need it. Sure enough she did it! I took ham out and made him hand her over cuz I could tell he was getting really annoyed. He doens't have the patience level I do! Now she was all wound up though so it took me longer to get her to focus on going to the bathroom...ugh.

Yesterday I took her to the park after work to get some energy out and had her on her flexi leash. We were about to head home and she parked herself. I wasn't sure if she was tired or just stubborn but if she was tired I didn't want to push it so I let her lay for a minute. Took me a little bit but I got her up since I had hot dog with me. 

I just wish she would want to come with me...and not need the food. I guess that is what I have to do though...any of your dogs get this stubborn? I have to remind myself to stay calm when she does this, esp in public as it looks ridiculous that I can't get my dog to walk with me.


----------



## janababy (Jan 2, 2012)

I feel your "pain". LOL!!!! our last dog Buddy was so stubborn, specially when he went on walks as a puppy. If he didn't want to walk anymore, he would lie down on his side and not budge. It took our family (all 6 of us) I am embarrassed to say, to get him up to get home. One of our neighbours came out and asked if he had had a seizure. How embarrassing!!!!! We also use to have a special stuffed toy named Miss Kitty that we used to get him in from the backyard. I know...I know... what we do for our dogs. LOL!!!!!! I does get better.


----------



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

It doesn't look ridiculous to anyone that has had a golden pup....and the rest don't matter


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

Yeah, my Knightley does this a bit. I'm training him to be my assistance (service) dog, and I've taught him if I ever stand in one place for a while (like at a shop counter), he can go into a down and relax. We've just started some public training, and the problem then comes when he's getting a bit tired and he's very comfortable thank you very much, and I'm finished doing whatever I wanted to do and want him to get up...... well, let's just say he looks at me as if that's the stupidest idea I've ever come up with. 

VERY embarrassing from what is otherwise a fairly well trained dog in public. I'm trying to train an exciting 'get up it's fun time!' cue, and that may be working..... but until then I have to grab the handle on his vest and give him a bit of a lift. Once I do he gets up of his own accord with a bit of a pull on his collar...... but seriously, he's meant to be helping me move around, not the other way around!!!! *blush* It's seriously embarrassing when it happens. **** these stubborn dogs, I swear Knightley knows exactly what he's doing to me. So..... I sympathise. At least you don't have half a shopping centre watching you when it happens!!!


----------



## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

LibertyME said:


> It doesn't look ridiculous to anyone that has had a golden pup....and the rest don't matter


Lol...I was just about to say that, too...


----------



## Amberbark (Oct 5, 2011)

*Us, too!*



baumgartml16 said:


> Koda's stubbornness is getting worse. I am working with her on it now more than I did last time. She got better quick last time so I didn't stress but I am taking it seriously this time. The last two mornings it took me 10-15 minutes to take her out to potty and get her back inside. She doesn't want to go potty, just wants to hang out outside. So I tlel her to go potty and she lays down LOL. It is funny when I look back at it but in the moment I am so annoyed. Trying to get her up is impossible as she rolls onto her back. She thinks its all a game. So yesterday I got her inside, went and grabbed some ham and took her back out! It worked! Today my hubby offered to let her out for the last time before we left...i told him to take ham and he was too cocky and said he didn't need it. Sure enough she did it! I took ham out and made him hand her over cuz I could tell he was getting really annoyed. He doens't have the patience level I do! Now she was all wound up though so it took me longer to get her to focus on going to the bathroom...ugh.
> 
> Yesterday I took her to the park after work to get some energy out and had her on her flexi leash. We were about to head home and she parked herself. I wasn't sure if she was tired or just stubborn but if she was tired I didn't want to push it so I let her lay for a minute. Took me a little bit but I got her up since I had hot dog with me.
> 
> I just wish she would want to come with me...and not need the food. I guess that is what I have to do though...any of your dogs get this stubborn? I have to remind myself to stay calm when she does this, esp in public as it looks ridiculous that I can't get my dog to walk with me.


That is so us right now LOL! Amber does not want to come in (who would) without a treat. Ask DH "Did you bring the treats out with you?" Oh, I forgot... :doh:. After working on this for two days, Amber will now come in on the second request for "Inside for a Treat", so I am encouraged. So so so maddening in real-time! What do you do? Chase her while she runs around the yard (no), beg (yes ), run around screaming at the top of my lungs (not recommended) or watch DH get mad (nope). For now, taking out a bag of high-value treats and swinging it through the air and saying "Inside for a Treat" is working. Who knows about tomorrow....she can be a real knot head. Just helps to know that you are not in this alone. :wavey:
P.S. Five coworkers at the NASA Center where I work just bought litter mates from a couple that posted on our Hall Board. I sent them all the link to this forum.


----------



## GinnyinPA (Oct 31, 2010)

Soon after we got Ben he began doing the lie down on his back and refuse to move game. I think originally it was in response to the electronic fence, which he hated, but he would also do it on walks occasionally. We started carrying a small snuff can that I found and filled with pennies. When he would lie down, I rattled the can and he leaped up. We only had to do it a couple of times.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanks guys, it is nice to know I am not alone! It is so frustrating though. I know that she knows what "come" means but she just has no interest in obeying it right now. She is 11 months old going on 1 year! I wanted her to be reliable at coming at this point. I guess I was asking too much. 

I went home on lunch and not thinking forgot to bring out ham with me. :doh:. She went right outside and layed down. No hesitation in what she was going to do. I could not get her up to save my life. I dont even recall now how I did get her up. I think I had other treats in my pocket. We had a nice walk and she didn't do it at all on the walk but then when we got home she did it again in the front yard. It is only when she knows she is going to be asked to come inside. The only commands that will get her inside is "wanna get the mail" (which I can only use once a day) and "wanna go for a ride" which I dont want to take a car ride everytime I want my dog to come in! Haha.

Part of my problem is I am asking her to potty when she probably just doesn't have to go. I don't have a baby puppy that has to go 100 times a day anymore and it is hard for me to get used to that. In the morning if she pees on our walk I will probably just leave it at that and not attempt to make her potty again. Same with this afternoon. I tried taking her out to potty and she wouldn't go..probalby because she didn't have to so I brought her inside. Ugh, this stresses me out so much because we have pet sitters over and I dont want to make them deal with this behaviour.


----------



## elly (Nov 21, 2010)

baumgartml16 said:


> Koda's stubbornness is getting worse. I am working with her on it now more than I did last time. She got better quick last time so I didn't stress but I am taking it seriously this time. The last two mornings it took me 10-15 minutes to take her out to potty and get her back inside.
> 
> I just wish she would want to come with me...and not need the food. I guess that is what I have to do though...any of your dogs get this stubborn? I have to remind myself to stay calm when she does this, esp in public as it looks ridiculous that I can't get my dog to walk with me.


Remember...'whats in it for her?' Thats the rule. What do you want? A dog who does what you need her to or a dog that does what you need her to with extra rules and complications that can then make it a gamble each time you give that command?
Take the ham. Dogs want reward. Dont think she can think the same way as a human. She wants to know whether its worth doing what you want her to do or whether what shes doing is better in HER eyes. IF you have the ham or whatever food she LOVES then she will do what you want,..then you are happy, she is happy and theres NO stress, NO confrontation and NO issues. Watch dogs in the show ring. They arent doing what they do for nothing. The handlers have the best treats fir them..whatever that dog loves they have in their hands. Chester has fresh duck that I cut into very small pieces and cook in the oven until its dried out. I know then that when I need him to do something I have the tool to get him to do it without any hassle and just after a few times he comes running JUST IN CASE I have the duck! Sometimes its a lower value treat but he obviously doesnt want to take a chance at missing out JUST IN CASE!!!  Thats where you need Koda to be and where she could be with consistency and if you can move yourself away from thinking ...'without food'. 
My other half and daughter were the same...they did it their way and he had no recall, fifty per cent response to commands. They have now seen his reaction to my way...and guess who is looking for pieces of duck now?!! 
Good luck..you will get there..our pups can be SOOO stubborn! I wish you were here..I would swap you pups for two days..I think you would see Koda as less stubborn after you had experienced my Mr Stubborn!!! :doh: :doh: :uhoh:


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanks Elly! You are right...consistency is key! I don't know if ham will be her go to treat but I will find whatever it is that she will listen to no matter what!


----------



## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Jige is like this only at night tho. He doesnt laydown he just wants to walk around. He has alwasy been like this and I think it is because I worked later when I got home (it was summer time) and I would take him and Miss Vendetta outside and I would sit out there for an hr or so let them play and doing some fetch. So Jige thinks that is what we should still be doing. He doesnt realize that he has a fur coat and I dont and it is cold outside. Now I take the frisbee and I toss that for him 5-6time and then he is ready to come back inside.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Koda is a smart pup! She knows what she wants and how to get it. She has you trained well lol! Have you tried just picking her up by her collar? Our Wyatt knows he has to go outside every nite before we go to bed and when I tell him let's go, he does the same. I will reach over and grab his collar and he will give me the devil dog look. But I always follow thru and grab his collar and he gets up. In other words he has no choice.
If you can't pull her up by her collar, I bet if you go inside and close the door she will want in. Otherwise she will just wait it out until she gets what SHE wants......ham.

You can train a dog to poddy on command whether they want to or not. It all comes down to consistancy. Dogs are creatures of habit. They learn routines rather quickly.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

I try the collar but that also gets her to roll onto her back...stinker! 

Leaving her outside would probably make her happy and she would just go about eating EVERYTHING. We still go out with her every time because we dont have a closed in fence or anything. So leaving her would involve us getting her tie out leash and hooking her up...probably wouldn't be too effective.

She used to potty on command....not so much anymore.


----------



## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Michelle, I'm wondering if you could have the special treat for her _inside_ the house. Once she comes in the door, she gets the treat. I read once about a mom who always gave her little kids one small M&M candy as soon as they were buckled into their car seats. She never said a word, just gave it to them. She never had trouble getting them into the car... LOL. Not sure about the candy approach with kids , but ya gotta do what works for ya....


----------



## Our3dogs (Apr 3, 2008)

Our rainbow bridge boy-Logan was just like that at that around 10 months of age. We were in training class one night when he pulled that stunt. He didn't want to do something so he did his usual throw himself on the ground and rollover when I reached for his collar. The instructor looked at him, looked at me and said "don't let him get away with that". I was ready to use a treat to get him up. Instead the instructor said to take a hold of his collar with both hands, one on either side of his neck, and use every bit of strength you have to haul his little sassy butt up off the ground into a sitting position. I did exactly that – with the whole class watching. It definitely was not an easy thing since he was about 65 pounds at the time, and was playing dead so that made it worse. He also gave me the "devil-dog" look that Wyatt's mom mentions, but I think he was more shocked that I actually got him up off the ground. I firmly placed him into a sitting position and told him to knock it off. We sat there for a minute and then the instructor gave me the signal to walk off with him. Though he tried it a few more times, I again hauled his butt up. After that he quit doing it. I was ready to use a treat every time to get him to behave when he did this. The instructor told me to stick to my guns and let him know throwing himself on the ground was not going to work, and to save the treats for those real emergencies. I am laughing now as I think about to those times with him – but at the time I wasn’t laughing. Good luck!


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

OMG Our3dogs...you describe her exactly. First the thump to the ground and then play dead...they literally make themselves dead weight. I am worried about class tonight for that reason. My hubby won't be there and lifting her 70 lb butt up won't be an easy feet if they ask me to do that....yikes! Glad it worked for you though...may have to go for it!


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Oh geeze. I second what Wyatt's Mommy recommended -- 

*GRAB HER COLLAR AND MAKE HER GET UP*

Don't let her play dead alligator with you. You are physically stronger and smarter and trust me you can MAKE her get up and follow you. *Yes, the first time she will flip over and you will have to drag her. Oh well. Next time she'll know not to play that baloney.* Sorry but your dog is being very manipulative and disrespectful and getting away with murder. She does NOT know what "come" means other than "that's the word mom says when I mess around and ignore her." Or -- if I ignore her long enough -- SHE BRINGS ME HAM! WOOHOO
Time for some tough love.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanks K9-Design. I need the reality check. She is owning me and I should take more control. She is pretty sensitive and I dont want her to fear me so I always try to avoid the tough love when I can but I think it is needed in this situation as hard as it will be for me. I am such a sucker for her but this will be good for her in the long run.


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

As I mentioned before, I am training my pup to be an assistance dog for myself, and due to my physical issues, there is no way I can drag him to an upright position. So, if you don't want to have to drag your dog upright, but don't want to have to lure every time... you could try training a 'let's go!' command, (or call it something else), which is what I have started to do with Knightley. What I am doing currently, is every time Knightley happens to get up from a down during any time he's with me, I make a huge fuss and give him bunches of treats. I've been doing this for a couple of days now, and I've noticed things like recall when he is lazy or even half asleep is getting lots better because he is associating getting up with good things. It's also improving the lazy stubborn 'I don't want to move' down, which was the point.

You could just work on that hard, but I am going to take it to the next level, and will soon start practicing long downs with him, keeping him in a stay for as long as I think he can safely do without breaking (different for every dog of course), and then I will tell him the stay is over, then say "let's go!" and quickly move off, and have a party if he gets up immediately, followed by treats gallore. I'd then start practicing inside with him on a leash, then backyard without a leash, then the street with a leash..... until I have a rock solid command that means 'time to move, get to your feet now'. Once he has understood, then I would slowly stop giving treats - maybe only give treats every second time, then every third and so on. That's what I plan to do, and I'm sure it'll work well. The first part has already seen an improvement. I'd anticipate the whole training sequence will take a week or so.

It's more versatile than dragging your dog up by its collar, as sometimes you will want your dog to relax in a down and then get up and be ready to go on command. You can use stand for that I suppose, but stand is very much a posed position, not a 'get ready' command IMO. Also, there must be other people out there who can't lift anything (especially the dead weight of their dog), or just have a bad back!


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

lyssa, so you are treating him anytime you see him get up from a down even without you asking? 

I like this a lot.


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

Yep. It's ideas like this that clicker training and the like are based on (I'm a big clicker fan). Catch the dog doing something that you like (getting up with no fuss) and tell them that it's wonderful, and it's more likely to do it more in the hope it will continue to get praise and treats. If it is told that the wonderfulness has its own name ("let's go!") then it'll be even more happy to do the *thing* in exchange for parties and treats, because it's so clear and defined. Dogs like it when we make it clear.


----------



## Doug (Jul 17, 2010)

Please let him be a pup while it still lasts. I know that it is frustrating for you but imagine how frustrating it is for him to be so young and not have a yard that he can run around and stretch freely at night. Do you keep him cooped up during the day while you are at work? 

Get a fence asap and close the door. You will find that he would rather be with you and will get inside quick smart rather than be left alone.

Until you get a fence you need to offer a more valuable than the great outdoors ie a treat from a noisy packet. You cannot grab his collar when he is on his back. 

He is not a robot but an intelligent fun loving pup who loves to play. Isn't that why you chose a golden retriever?


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Doug said:


> Please let him be a pup while it still lasts. I know that it is frustrating for you but imagine how frustrating it is for him to be so young and not have a yard that he can run around and stretch freely at night. Do you keep him cooped up during the day while you are at work?
> 
> Get a fence asap and close the door. You will find that he would rather be with you and will get inside quick smart rather than be left alone.
> 
> ...


Sure you can. Just grab it from behind his neck and pull.


----------



## quilter (Sep 12, 2011)

I always use a leash when there is a time pressure or I don't want to stand out in the rain forever. Then I can keep him moving. If he's just laying down, he doesn't need to pee. But as soon as he's moving, he realizes he needs to go. Then he gets a treat after he goes. 

Casper hasn't thrown his body to ground in a while. Now he just stands his ground. (Ooh, see how strong I am!) I *try* never to lure him to get moving. He only gets a reward for obeying a command. I made the mistake of luring my last dog in after his nightly potty break. He just wanted more and better treats. Then he went senile and I had to go out and find him in the dark and lure him in.


----------



## elly (Nov 21, 2010)

What Lyssa explains is excellent and very much how I base Chesters training. Funny too in fact that I am quite disabled now and cannot haul him even if I want to but in fact, I dont want him to fear me..when I say ' lets go' in a hyper happy voice and he leaps up all excited and waggy its soo much nicer than if I am dragging him downstairs with him hating me when he shouldnt be upstairs! We run down together and he stops by my side in the kitchen looking up at me waiting for his treat  If I dont have one handy he doesnt mind now, we just have a lovely cuddle.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Doug said:


> Please let him be a pup while it still lasts. I know that it is frustrating for you but imagine how frustrating it is for him to be so young and not have a yard that he can run around and stretch freely at night. Do you keep him cooped up during the day while you are at work?
> 
> Get a fence asap and close the door. You will find that he would rather be with you and will get inside quick smart rather than be left alone.
> 
> ...


She does have a yard to play in, a big one. We put her on a long line and play ball every night. We take her to the baseball field and let her run her heart out as well. She gets plenty of exercise. What I am referring to are usually the quick trips outside to potty or when it is time to come in from being outside. She eats everythign on the ground and so we cannot just leave her out there unattended or there could easily be trips to the ER vet. 

I love having a golden and do everythign I can to help with the puppy energy but she still needs to learn to listen when I say it is time to go somewhere and not just flop on her back. 

I don't know where I came off saying she doesn't have a yard to run in but she does and she gets a lot of play time. Sorry if it came off that way.


----------



## Doug (Jul 17, 2010)

I hear ya Koda's Momma  only because my two year old does the same thing when I am trying to take a dignified photo of him. It is quite hilarious for us but I can imagine that it is not so cute for you in the middle of the night!

Wyatt's Mommy there is no way that I could grab him by the collar when my boy wriggles on his back like a monkey in protest. He is simply too big! I would end up rolling in the grass with him he he.

This is the quote that gave me the impression that she wanted more time for a night time play - (as you do when you are a youngin )
*We still go out with her every time because we dont have a closed in fence or anything.*

Just try to see it from her point of view. Use the treats. You still hold the power. Make it a positive experience for yourself and your beautiful girl.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Okay I see what you meant. We go outside with her but on a 6 ft leash to go potty and her tie out (which is not attached to anything, but long enough that we can stop her if she would try to go anywhere) when its play time.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

That is so foreign to me... all I ever have had to say to any of my past and present goldens is "Let's go out." They jump off the couch or chair and run to the door. You should probably work on conditioning her to a verbal queue that teaches her to get up independent of going outside. Then when she knows it, pair it with going outside. And stubbornness is IMO anthropomorphizing when it refers to dogs...


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I like Sally have real issues with the idea of stubborn when we talk about dogs.... 

It seems to me like this dog totally has your number, She does the dead thing you went and gave her ham... sounds like the pup has it totally figured out. Consistency is key as well as making your desires known and clear. 

You want her to go potty outside... then out you go on the leash... no playing... you stand there and say go potty go potty go potty whatever you say and if it takes you an hour you say go potty and when she goes praise like crazy... if she doesn't go then in the house into the crate... 20 minutes later out she goes... go potty go potty go potty... and repeat... the desires are very clear... 

I have a boy here Meir who will do the dead thing when he doesn't want to do something... so I walk over.... pick him up by the sides of his head and out he goes... we don't play the dead game here... I just don't tolerate it... get your butt up and lets go... shoot recently natalie (130 lbs) decided that she wasn't getting in the car (she was afraid) so not happening, getting in the car is not optional so I PUT her in the car, she learned quickly that we can do it the hard way or the easy way. 

if this is bratty behavior then you need to take back your house and not reinforce this because it sounds like you have a very very smart pup there


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Ugh, I was afraid her smartness would catch up to me and it has! Her problem isn't going outside Sally, its coming in. She will go outside quite easily LOL.

I agree I created it by letting it happen and not forcing her up. I now see I need to do this. I didn't think it was right to force her but it certainly is the way to go with this.

The problem is I dont have all the time in the world to have her go potty. And I do praise her when she goes. I will stand like a tree and hold the leash and say go potty..she lays down. I take forever to get her up we do it again, she lays down. I have to get to work so this isn't an option. She usually pees on our walks though so we are going to leave it if she pees on the walk she won't have to go 15 minutes later so she will be good till her lunch break. Hopefully this will help as I think a lot of the time that she is laying down it is because she doens't have to go and doens't know what else we are out there for than to just relax.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Doug said:


> You cannot grab his collar when he is on his back.


You can't? Why not?

Puppies get puppy privileges by being charming, tractable, respectful puppies. They don't get it by being brats.


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

I'd agree there are dangers in using a lure (which is why I suggested training a "let's go" cue), but used correctly they can be ok. It all depends on whether you are asking for something or just feeding. If you're waving the ham in front of her nose and using it as a literal lure to get your dog into a sitting position and then giving the ham, yes I think she can easily learn what will get it ham. 

Instead, wave the ham in front of her face, let her smell it, then walk only a couple of steps away, but so she can see from where her eyes are, and call her to you. If she isn't moving, crouch down with the ham in your open hand, be really happy etc, return to let her smell again if necessary.... whatever you have to do to get her moving voluntarily. When she comes to you, have her go into a sit in front of you, wait a second or two (ham visible if necessary to keep focus and stop her flopping down again) and then give her a nice big chunk of ham. Then get indoors, keeping her focus with the ham, giving her little bits as she stays on her feet.

Dogs have about a two second "pay memory". She will understand that she is being paid for getting up, coming to you and sitting..... or even just the sitting part. By doing that it is extremely unlikely she will be able to make the connection to getting paid for lying on her back. If you don't ask for anything before giving the ham, she could (even then it isn't all that common).

Some people just aren't going to like dragging a dog upright. Some can't. Personally I can't see it as pleasant for a dog at all, *and* I can't do it physically, so I am doing it a different way. It's a personal choice how we treat our dogs. There are always many options for managing every problem that crops up, and those different ways will suit different owners and dogs.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

lyssa said:


> Some people just aren't going to like dragging a dog upright. Some can't. Personally I can't see it as pleasant for a dog at all, *and* I can't do it physically, so I am doing it a different way. It's a personal choice how we treat our dogs. There are always many options for managing every problem that crops up, and those different ways will suit different owners and dogs.


It's not pleasant to be picked up dead weight by the collar. But I can guarantee you it won't hurt them and they will learn really fast.


----------



## Our3dogs (Apr 3, 2008)

Shalva, that is exactly what the instructor told me "don't tolerate it". Once Logan realized that, the problem went away. Koda's mom, one thing you can also do is the moment you see her even twitch a muscle as if she is going to lay down, is to walk off with her. If she starts to lay down, give her leash a quick pop, tell her to heal and head back into the house. Timing is key - the minute she is done peeing that's when you move off with her. Don't give her the opportunity to lay down. Good luck!


----------



## Doug (Jul 17, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> You can't? Why not?
> 
> Puppies get puppy privileges by being charming, tractable, respectful puppies. They don't get it by being brats.


So she is a brat because she would rather be outside and play instead of coming inside straight away?

There is no need to have such a negative opinion of your pups. 
Think more positively and have more compassion.
Always use positive reinforcement as often as possible.
Negative rough housing is rather old fashioned when there is a positive solution.


----------



## quilter (Sep 12, 2011)

Did you say you are trying to get her to pee just 15 minutes after her first-in-the-morning pee? I can see waiting a long time for that! I would call it good with the first pee. Casper is 8 months and can hold it 5 hours during the day (left the teenager in charge and found that out). He usually waits about 3 hours for his second pee break of the day. And he's a male and is starting to pee on trees.

Laying down is a separate problem. I would try working on a "get up" command indoors and then practicing outdoors. Casper and I sometimes work on just "let's go". I say "let's go" and we go only 3-4 steps. Then stop and sit. Then "let's go" again. A few times in a row. I'm trying to condition him to get moving without thinking it about it. For all those times he'd rather watch the wind than get moving.


----------



## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> It's not pleasant to be picked up dead weight by the collar. But I can guarantee you it won't hurt them and they will learn really fast.


I wasn't strong enough to pick Max up by the time he was about 8 months old. And that wasn't dead weight, there's no way I could have lifted him then or now.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

honestly picking them up is not hard if you know how to do it... if you try to lift from the belly then nope you can't do it.... i go for the head and pull... shoot even natalie doesnt do the dead weight thing anymore... the other option is get the collar and pull... dont lift... pull the dog will get up... 

right now the dog knows that you aren't gonna do anything about it so what the heck


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Doug said:


> So she is a brat because she would rather be outside and play instead of coming inside straight away?


Are you reading the same posts as I am? The dog is laying down and refusing to move when called, cajoled and begged. That's not playing and enjoying the out of doors. And yes, if I call my dog and she says "No mommy I want to stay outside and play" then absolutely she is being a brat and I would put an end to that very quickly. What if she decides to play in the road? OK to let her be a puppy?



> There is no need to have such a negative opinion of your pups.
> Think more positively and have more compassion.
> Always use positive reinforcement as often as possible.
> Negative rough housing is rather old fashioned when there is a positive solution.


This is very nice but not terribly practical. I treat my dogs like dogs, not like Disney characters. My dogs know the rules, are respectful and well trained, and because of that they are allowed a lot of freedom and enjoyment and I can enjoy them because they respond to me. 
I think it is an odd phenomenon that TRAINED DOGS are viewed as OPPRESSED.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

laprincessa said:


> I wasn't strong enough to pick Max up by the time he was about 8 months old. And that wasn't dead weight, there's no way I could have lifted him then or now.


I can't actually _pick_ my dog up either, my post did sound like that didn't it lol. However I can make him get up by grabbing his collar.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Well not wanting to come in is also foreign to me. Maybe i am "blessed" with dogs that inherently pull to come in or to go outside!!


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> I treat my dogs like dogs, not like Disney characters. My dogs know the rules, are respectful and well trained, and because of that they are allowed a lot of freedom and enjoyment and I can enjoy them because they respond to me.
> I think it is an odd phenomenon that TRAINED DOGS are viewed as OPPRESSED.


Wow, I have never seen positive reinforcement called 'treating your dog like a Disney character'. I definitely see him as a dog, I think once you start treating a dog as anything else then behaviour problems start arising. My dog has rules, is respectful and well trained. I would like to think he is pretty impressive for an 8 month old pup actually. And that's largely with positive reinforcement, a little negative punishment and a little negative reinforcement (and the very very occasional 'ah-ah!' when he is possibly in danger of hurting himself).

I don't know if you are talking about any specific positive reinforcement trainers, but don't tar us all with the same brush. Like I said before, we all choose different ways to train our dogs, and there is nothing wrong with that. I went down the more 'traditional' path before previously, and now I like this one much more, and think it is more effective. Personally, I agree with the poster you responded to, that the more 'physical' solutions are becoming a little old fashioned these days, if there is a more positive solution for both parties.

Also do remember I am coming from a situation where I cannot physically lift anything, let alone half the weight of a dog. There are going to be many people who can't for various reasons, and there have to be other solutions.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

lyssa said:


> Wow, I have never seen positive reinforcement called 'treating your dog like a Disney character'.


I absolutely did not call positive reinforcement treating your dog like a Disney character. 

I called Doug's outlook on the OP's dog's behavior treating the dog like a Disney character. Which is dangerous and unfair to dogs. How he trains his pets and whether or not it's positive reinforcement is up for grabs, I have no idea.



> I don't know if you are talking about any specific positive reinforcement trainers, but don't tar us all with the same brush.


You are sure putting a lot of words into my mouth. Not once did I mention positive reinforcement, a specific trainer, a specific method, or any such thing. I didn't say any specific training method would not work. I simply explained what I would do, have done, and find reasonable, practical, fair, expedient and effective.

And while I neither mentioned nor denigrated any person or training method, I have been called old fashioned, physical, negative and insensitive. Woohoo! All in the span of about four posts! Go me!


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> I absolutely did not call positive reinforcement treating your dog like a Disney character.
> 
> I called Doug's outlook on the OP's dog's behavior treating the dog like a Disney character. Which is dangerous and unfair to dogs. How he trains his pets and whether or not it's positive reinforcement is up for grabs, I have no idea.


"There is no need to have such a negative opinion of your pups. 
Think more positively and have more compassion.
Always use positive reinforcement as often as possible.
Negative rough housing is rather old fashioned when there is a positive solution."

That's what he said, and what you responded to. Thinking positively, using positive reinforcement and avoiding physical solutions when there is a positive one are all very standard messages of positive trainers. He could now come along and disagree, but I think you and I can be fairly sure from what he said that he isn't a hardcore traditionalist, but leans towards positive reinforcement. It seems you were calling that positive reinforcement viewpoint "treating your dog like a Disney character", as that is what you were directly responding to. Personally, I find the suggestion to use positive reinforcement as much as possible IS practical. I could have got it all wrong, but that is what I thought you were responding to, and perhaps having a little poke at?

Anyway, I didn't want to get into a big argument. My real point is, the part you haven't responded to, we all have different methods for training our dogs. There needs to be many solutions to a problem. One size does *not* fit all trainers or dogs. I cannot lift anything, let along half the weight of my dog (nor would I anyway), so I come up with other solutions that can be positive for all concerned. Some people are going to like those type of solutions more. So long as we are not talking about anything cruel, the dog in question is happy, and the solution works, all is good, right? 

I would much rather be friends, just get a bit defensive of positive reinforcement when I perceive it as being under attack! It has a lot to offer, IMHO, even if you only wish to use it 1% of the time.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

lyssa said:


> I would much rather be friends, just get a bit defensive of positive reinforcement when I perceive it as being under attack!


I agree. Just don't be so quick to assume the victim role. There were no barbs toward positive reinforcement from me. 
My Disney Character assessment was of this : 

_"Please let him be a pup while it still lasts. I know that it is frustrating for you but imagine how frustrating it is for him to be so young and not have a yard that he can run around and stretch freely at night. Do you keep him cooped up during the day while you are at work? 

Get a fence asap and close the door. You will find that he would rather be with you and will get inside quick smart rather than be left alone.

Until you get a fence you need to offer a more valuable than the great outdoors ie a treat from a noisy packet. You cannot grab his collar when he is on his back. 

He is not a robot but an intelligent fun loving pup who loves to play. Isn't that why you chose a golden retriever?"


_


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

Aah, see you quoted that previously mentioned positive reinforcment-like comment, and then responded to that with the Disney remark.... I just assumed that was what you were then talking about. It wasn't at all clear. All is forgiven. :

As for puppies rather being inside with you just because you have a fence, I don't agree with Doug on that one.... my pup even at 8 months loves eating grass and twigs... I could leave him out for ages before he would want to come inside, as much as I am loving and force free mum to him. It probably depends on the dog though, some are 'velcro dogs'. Personally I like to foster a bit of independence, or you end up with some nasty separation anxiety.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

i am all for positive reinforcement when possible but I also believe that alot of learning comes from negative consequences. Generally I don't find that my puppies housebreak just from peeing outside and getting praise... they also have to be told NO to peeing in the house... this doesn't mean hitting or physical punishment this just means making it clear not only what they should do but also what they shouldn't do as well. 

Positive reinforcement is great BUT I personally have no qualms about giving someone a quick tug on a leash or like recently PUTTING natalie in the car or pulling her in... I truly believe there has to be a balance. 

Years ago I was on the totally positive bandwagon... my dogs were not put into stressful situations... I would never think of giving them a tug or a NO it was all done totally positively and what I found was that it didn't work for us, not at the level we wanted to be at. 

So I am with K9 on this... the dogs are dogs, they think differently than we do, they respond differently than we do. In the original posters situation it woiuld seem that positive only methods have turned this smart puppy into a spoiled brat... In my own case Natalie the wolfhound was being manipulative (and I never thought I would say that I was being manipulated by a dog) I put my foot down... made it clear that I made the rules (as gently as possible but firmly) and took back my house. 

Honestly I find that in a house of 9 dogs I have to periodically crack down on everyone. or they get a bit out of hand.... and we get very strict for a short period and everyone goes back to living peacably in the house... 

Positive is great but there is nothing wrong with a good HEY KNOCK IT OFF! wish more people would do that with their human children.


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

Using positive reinforcement doesn't mean no stress, nor should it..... or yes, you probably will end up with a spoilt brat. Some stress for your dog is good stress. For instance, that's how Behaviour Adjustment Training (BAT) works, and that uses a lot of negative reinforcement as well as positive. Google it if you don't know what it is.

I certainly didn't tell my pup off for peeing inside, and he was house broken in record time. I guess it's partly different with every dog, and it depends on what technique you use. This is a blog entry I wrote on how I trained Knightley to go on cue, and how he got housebroken so easily (actually somewhat on topic!).

BTW I wouldn't say the OP was using positive methods by the sound of it.... I think she was just trying to lure the dog up with ham? Positive reinforcement requires the *reinforcement* for an *action*. Luring is a very crude technique that pos reinforcement trainers try to steer clear of as much as possible, from my experience, except sometimes to begin the training of a behaviour, but then we do it only 4-5 times. The dog isn't thinking, it's just following the food, and the aim of things like clicker training is to create a thinking dog. My suggestion of treating the dog for getting up anytime at all during the day so that getting up becomes a positive motion has an 'action -> reinforcement' element which is completely lacking in luring, which is why luring is actually pretty taboo. The dog is getting something for nothing, and may learn to manipulate instead. So yea, not what I would call positive reinforcement... or maybe I misunderstood what she did with the ham, the OP wasn't fully explicit. Just being a bit pedantic, positive reinforcement hasn't been tried yet by the OP in my estimation.

By the way Shalva, if it was years ago you were into pos reinforcement, things have come a long way in that time - there is a lot more use of negative reinforcement for instance, which has all sorts of potential! Even if you're not going to use the techniques all the time, the internet community is great for staying up to date with new developments, and the more knowledge we all have, the better.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> And stubbornness is IMO anthropomorphizing when it refers to dogs...


I see a _ton_ of anthropomorphizing going on in this thread, not just in the term "stubborn." We often use the term "bratty" to describe unruly puppy behavior, but dogs can't plan well enough to be brats the way children can, so thinking along those lines is really misleading the advice here.

Anybody who's saying to just grab the collar and drag the dog has clearly never been bitten when manhandling a dog by a collar. I've made that mistake exactly one time and had the reminder of what a bad idea it was for a month until my thumbnail grew back. When you have a dog who's ignoring an angry voice and rolling on her back when the owner attempts to grab, you don't have a "stubborn" dog engaging in "passive resistance" or a brilliant chess game of manipulation. Dogs are terrible at chess.

The back roll is a basic response to a perceived threat. It says "please stop what you're doing." Many Goldens will then allow themselves to be dragged. Some will bite. Escalating a physical confrontation with a dog will work _most_ of the time because you'll intimidate the dog to the point that she gives up. Some dogs will continue to escalate with you. It's bad to take a dog through that emotional state, and it can be dangerous. Just because _most_ Goldens won't panic and bite doesn't mean that _all_ won't. Even dogs that won't bite may panic and twist and injure themselves or you in the process.

She lies down now because it's part of her pattern, not her plan. It worked once, so she does it again. She's not actually plotting or planning or manipulating; it just looks like it. She's a dog, not a Bond villain.

Your dog has learned that lying down works. Dragging her around by the collar might teach her that it doesn't. It also might break her trust in you or lead to an injury for one or both of you. Wouldn't it be nice if there were a way to break that pattern without manhandling the dog?

There is! Hooray!

Step one: she's no longer off the leash outside until she stops doing this. Put her on a martingale collar and a 6' leash for outside time. That way, if she does flop down, you can get her back up much more safely, and she should find being hauled up by the leash less threatening than being grabbed by the collar. You still want to avoid entering into that confrontation at all, but you may make a mistake and give her an opportunity to start the bad pattern again, and you want to be able to stop her safely and with a minimum of confrontation. A leash can help you do that. Also, by briskly walking on the leash, you can keep her attention in a very different way that might allow you to reward the behaviors you want.

Step two: no bribes. A common pitfall in positive reinforcement crops up when the dog sees the treat before the behavior is complete. Sometimes we do lure with treats, but only in situations where we're careful not to develop a bribing pattern. Make sure you're not showing your dog a treat, asking for obedience, and then rewarding. You'll essentially teach the dog to obey the treat, not you. In most situations, you want the dog to offer a behavior and then you produce a reward out of nowhere. The dog learns that obeying you causes good things to happen, not that she should obey you if she wants that bit of ham you're holding. 

The worst thing you can do is show her ham and beg her to get up. Always reward her, though, when she complies, no matter how much of a brat she was first. Avoid repeating commands. If she doesn't do something you want on the first try, you've already lost that game, so don't keep playing. Either manhandle her (though, as I've said, that should be a last resort and should be done on leash) or change to a different tactic.

Do you have a crate? To teach her to pee on command, you can take her outside, give her a reasonable time marching around the yard, and then head straight back to her crate if she doesn't pee. Repeat fifteen minutes later and reward her when she does pee. She won't pee under herself in the crate, so you should eventually force to work on your terms.

To work on the core skills that she doesn't have, take her out of the situation that sparks the bad behavior and work on skills together in a more controlled setting. Run through fun games for short periods (10-15 minutes) three or more times a day. Work on easy recall in the house, sit, and lie down, always rewarding generously and sporadically and never showing treats before compliance. It helps to stash them in multiple pockets so they're always appearing out of nowhere. Vary your rewards too. Instead of using food every time, have a praise party, run around, play tug, or do something else you know she likes. You can also work on pushups for this particular situation. That's where you teach her to sit, then lie down, then sit, then lie down, each time with a command and a reward for compliance. Running her through a positively-rewarded pattern of getting up on command will probably come in handy later.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

tippykayak - your post was so helpful. Everyone's were. 

We tried the grabbing her by the collar but you are right, she is giving up, defeated and we definitely don't want to break her trust. She is a more sensitive dog. We were just saying last night it felt awful doing it to her. We actually switched last night to taking her out on her prong collar and if we want her up we give her a little jerk and say "up" and she is getting up. Then treat and reward!  

We are definitley using the advice of not luring her with treats and not showing her the treat till the behaviour has been done. I think that has been one of our biggest mistakes all throughout the training process! Makes complete sense though and we are happy to be fixing this now. 

You all were great with the advice, we appreciate it all and are going to nip all of it in the butt without breaking her trust or making her fearful.


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Another trick you might use is if you can catch her about to lie down, put your foot under her between her front and back legs. They taught us to do this when you want your dog to stand. It has worked with every dog I have owned, and I often use it when grooming.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

baumgartml16 said:


> tippykayak - your post was so helpful. Everyone's were.
> 
> We tried the grabbing her by the collar but you are right, she is giving up, defeated and we definitely don't want to break her trust. She is a more sensitive dog. We were just saying last night it felt awful doing it to her. *We actually switched last night to taking her out on her prong collar and if we want her up we give her a little jerk and say "up" and she is getting up. Then treat and reward! *
> 
> ...


 
You just needed an extra tool and it worked! Believe me she will not become fearful of you by doing this. Both my goldens at times will try to play me to the result of much defeat A little jerk on the collar is by no means going to harm your relationship or be seen as punishing. Sometimes they need little reminders. Sounds like she's getting it.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Anthropomorphizing the puppy as stubborn is human nature, but she also sounds shut down. I really hope you will not get rough and physical with a puppy. Training is a lifelong conversation, and has to do with great timing, clear signals, consistency, reading of body language, and finesse more than force and punishing. You may win the battle in the small picture but you will hurt your relationship in the big picture if you punish the pup by grabbing her and dragging her and manhandling her. Dogs treated this way often show aggression/ temperament problems or fear later. It is not worth the risk. Find a trainer with skillful hands instead of heavy hands to help for a few lessons. There are many ways to train a dog, and different methods fit different dogs/trainers. Try to find someone you trust in real life. See their dogs at work and play for yourself, especially temperaments and manners. It's fun to work with a good trainer.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Ljilly28 - we are not using those methods for the reason you stated. We are not comfortable doing it for one and two it would break my hurt to hurt our relationship over something so silly. Like I said earlier, we just giving her a slight pop of the prong and telling her "up"...then the treat comes out. She is catching on fast which I hoped she would. Either that or if I can catch her before she lays down I will divert her attention.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Doug said:


> So she is a brat because she would rather be outside and play instead of coming inside straight away?
> 
> There is no need to have such a negative opinion of your pups.
> Think more positively and have more compassion.
> ...


Great post. We see more than 100 dogs a week here, and so often there is a correlation between the minority who still use aversive methods and people who are downright hostile with their pups who have only even been on earth for 10 weeks. ( She potties in the house because she is spiteful, etc).


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

That is so heartening that you noticed her reaction was defeated, and changed courses. I also hope you might reconsider a prong collar for the basics of baby training, mainly so you can work through how to develop a common language between the two of you. Find a great class or training group for the fun and support of it if you can.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

What is baby training?


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Baby dog training/puppy training


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

O yea, she is 11 months. She has been in lots of training classes. We are in one now.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I would second LJilly's advice. A lighter hand can be incredibly effective with a dog who's shutting down like this, and I agree that it's generally better for building relationships.

That kind of training takes good timing and some of the basics are a little counterintuitive (like the bribing thing), so I also second the recommendation to find a good trainer you're comfortable with.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

What is your class/ trainer like? Do you enjoy it?


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

11 months, eh? You're also in a classic phase where pups forget a lot of their lessons. You do want to settle into a training pattern so you don't confuse her, but it's pretty normal for pups to regress around this age. Redouble your training efforts and you'll set the pattern for a lifetime of solid obedience.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Her dog knows the basic. Koda is just playing games with her. She knew as long as she laid there they would give her a treat. Baumgartml16 has now learned how to take charge and it is working fine. Lifting a dogs collar to get them up will not turn them into aggressive animals nor will it ruin her relationship. It's a simple reminder that says "Hey I'm not playing games, let's go" FTLOG!


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Her dog knows the basic. Koda is just playing games with her. She knew as long as she laid there they would give her a treat. Baumgartml16 has now learned how to take charge and it is working fine. Lifting a dogs collar to get them up will not turn them into aggressive animals nor will it ruin her relationship. It's a simple reminder that says "Hey I'm not playing games, let's go" FTLOG!


I agree if she has an 11 mos old dog that is going to aggressively bit her when lifted by the collar then she has bigger problems than a puppy that has her number. Now would I recommend lifting a strange dog or one that was not yours absolutely not but if her dog is going to bite her then this is a way bigger issue ... I mean honestly

Also there is a big difference between shutting down (i have one of those) and a brat who has figured the game out in their favor.... I don't see this as shutting down behavior at all... I see this as "i want ham, and i know how to get it"


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I didn't see where anybody said it would turn the dog aggressive. It can, however, panic a dog to be dragged along by the collar. I used to be more physical with this kind of dog (pushing them into position, hauling them by the collar if they weren't complaint, alpha-rolling, etc.) and I've seen it more than once, and, as I said, I've been bitten badly once when doing it myself. The dog in question never showed any signs of aggression, before or after, but it was 100% a fear bite. I've seen other dogs twist and panic when pulled by the collar like that.

Pulling the dog up a bit, you're unlikely to create this kind of panic, but one poster sounded like he or she was suggesting dragging the dog along the ground if necessary, and I thought the risk of a fear reaction was unacceptably high, particularly since there are several responses to the situation that don't involve so much physical force.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have never had a dog that didn't move when I asked it to move... So this is all foreign... I think the dog needs a good training class ...


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> I have never had a dog that didn't move when I asked it to move... So this is all foreign... I think the dog needs a good training class ...


I've never seen it as a way of gaming treats, but I've seen it a couple of times in Goldens as a response to stress. I've been calling it the Ghandi behavior, where the dog lies down and then shuts down and goes limp when you try to move him.


----------



## Doug (Jul 17, 2010)

Koda's Mommy: 
How have you been going? Are you only able to get her in with the prong? Please lay down the prong. Have none of the other positive suggestions that you have been given worked?

Anney: Be assured I am a teacher who is knows the importance of positive motivation, body language, timing and above all safety. When words such as "stubborn" and "brat" are used there needs to be some balance and compassion brought into this thread. Please do not mistake my post as completely jumping to the other airy fairy extreme. We do have boundaries but we always try positive rewards first.


----------



## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

Is Koda in an obedience class? Honestly, I have found that Tucker needs to be doing something, whether it is obedience, rally, etc. I think some consistent structured training will definitely help you with Koda's issues. The more you train with your dog in a structured way with other dogs, the more you learn to read their body language, and understand what they want. We go thru phases with Tucker, but whenever I notice he is starting to ignore commands and goof off, it usually coincides with us being out of class for awhile. Once I get his butt back in class, he starts to shape up. While I agree you can't let them get away with things, and at times there needs to be tough love, you have to really understand what is causing the issue, otherwise your tough love, or adversive solution is going to cause more issues. 

Case in point, Shalva had a dog who refused to get her car. Shalva would have none of it and shoved her butt in the car. Now, I have read many of Shalva's posts, and I know from reading them, she knows her dogs inside and out. So I have no doubt Shalva knew exactly why her dog was refusing to get in the car and took the correct action. 

Now many of you know that I have been having issues with Tucker getting in the car. He would refuse to get in the car, like Shalva's dog. I did the same thing Shalva did, I shoved his butt in the car. What happened in my case? Tucker got worse. He would not go near the car. We were at a rally class, having fun, he was all waggy butt and happy, and about 5 minutes before the end of class I looked over at him and he had a worried look on his face. He realized class was almost over, and he would have to get back in the car. He planted his butt on the floor, and it took me dragging and the trainer shoving to get him out the door. Then I still had to wrestle him, with a ruptured disk in my back, into the car. My tough love wasn't working because I failed to recognize his fear of the car and address it. So we have been slowly working with him to associate the car with good things. He had to eat his meals in the car, jumping up and in on his own, or he would not get to eat. Tough love, you bet! Broke my heart to do it, but once he learned to either hop in and eat or go hungry, he overcame his fear and found the courage to get in. We built on it from there, closing the hatch when he was in the car, just sitting with him in the car reading a book, giving treats and love when his body language said he was relaxed. Letting him ride in the back seat instead of the far back with the window cracked so he could enjoy the smells better. We found ways to make the ride enjoyable for him. It is still a work in progress.

My point is don't just treat the symptom with a quick fix. Make sure you understand the problem and what Koda is telling you. Any of the solutions presented could work, but you better darn well know the issue or the wrong fix is just going to make it worse. To me a prong collar or hauling her butt up may not be the right solution, but I cannot say for sure without seeing you and Koda interact. For me, I would rather jolly her up if she offers her belly to me and make her realize I am the funnest, bestest person to be around and that there is not better place to be than by my side. If you can make her fell that way, I guarantee she won't lay down anywhere and refuse to move, unless you are doing the same. Sorry for the novel. I really wanted to illustrate what living with a "stubborn" dog is. Koda is not stubborn, just smart and misunderstood. What she really wants is just you. Give her what she wants.


----------



## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> I've never seen it as a way of gaming treats, but I've seen it a couple of times in Goldens as a response to stress. I've been calling it the Ghandi behavior, where the dog lies down and then shuts down and goes limp when you try to move him.


I frequently saw this behavior at my self-service dog wash, especially with the Goldens, when people started dragging them to get up the steps they would lay down and become dead weight and we called it passive resistance, but I like the term Ghandi behavior. At that point, we would just gently pick up the dog, put him or her in the tub and go for it. It wound up being so much less stressful for everyone. People commonly thought the dog was just being stubborn or "bad" and we would discuss how the dog was just scared. 

Some dogs just needed a push from the rear (OK sometimes it got close to goosing the dog) to get them in the tub, but then it was treats and lots of exciting praise. I figured the dog may not have known what it was getting praised for, but at least they would get the idea that being in the tub was a good idea.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanks for all the responses. Koda is in a Beginner 2 class currently (we have been through puppy, advanced puppy, beginner 1 and now into beginner 2). The trainer we have for this class is great. She has three goldens herself, one being Koda's age, so she has been helping us through a lot of stuff. 

I do believe this is partially due to her being in that teenage stage. I also think it is our fault for always luring her with a rewarding treat. We are no longer doing this.

Koda is not aggressive in the least bit. She has never bit me, mouthed while playing - yes! We are working on that as well with a firm no bite and play ending. She is catching on.

We did the picking up by the collar one time and while it may work for some it will not work for Koda. She is too sensitive for that approach. She literally gave in, put her head down and was defeated. I can't do that to her. We have been building such a solid relationship and to see her like that was not pleasant. We have moved to putting her prong on and giving a light pop, it really doesn't take much for her to understand what we are trying to get out of her, we accompany this with a command of "up" and she is up. Once up we give her a treat and praise her like crazy. For whoever asked if we can get rid of the prong I am going to say no. We don't use it aggressivley at all and she understands how to respond with that without feeling defeated. We use it as her training tool on walks too and she responds positively to that so we are going to stick with it. This week has been a vast improvement as we have implemented this approach. I didn't even need to use it today at all. 

Thank you for everyones input, we used all of it to make our decision. Koda is more sensitive and needs a lighter approach.

As far as class, she does great in class. We had one slip up last week where she had too much energy and wanted to play. The trainer worked with me and we got her under control. She is still a baby afterall, I can't expect a perfectly obedient dog 100% of the time yet.

Thanks again.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

baumgartml16 said:


> Thanks for all the responses. Koda is in a Beginner 2 class currently (we have been through puppy, advanced puppy, beginner 1 and now into beginner 2). The trainer we have for this class is great. She has three goldens herself, one being Koda's age, so she has been helping us through a lot of stuff.
> 
> I do believe this is partially due to her being in that teenage stage. I also think it is our fault for always luring her with a rewarding treat. We are no longer doing this.
> 
> ...


I applaud you for finding the right method and tool that works for you and Koda! Sounds like Koda is responding well and that means a happier dog which means happier mom!


----------



## Doug (Jul 17, 2010)

Have you tried the easy walker harness with the ring at the front on walks?


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Yes we did. She wasn't a fan and that is when we switched to the prong. Our training class recommended the prong for class as well. They are not harmful to the dog. We got trained on how to use it properly and she is for sure not hurt by it at all.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"We have moved to putting her prong on and giving a light pop, it really doesn't take much for her to understand what we are trying to get out of her, we accompany this with a command of "up" and she is up. Once up we give her a treat and praise her like crazy. "

This isn't clear to me. I am interested in understanding the actual mechanics of when you do what.
Are you doing the light pop with the prong as you say up?
Are you saying up and when she doesn't respond doing the light pop with the prong?
Are you doing the light pop on the prong then asking for her to get up?


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

We say "up". If she doesn't do it we give her a light pop and say it again. Sometimes she gets up on the first command and haven't had to say it more than twice.


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

By the way, there is nothing wrong with some mouthing during play - so long as it is gentle and there are very distinct boundaries. Knightley knows I have very firm limits with mouthing play. We do a lot of play like that though.... I hook my fingers around his canines and drag him around with them, and he absolutely adores that. A dog who learns really well how to control the strength of its bite is a safe dog. 

Dogs that aren't allowed to put their teeth on skin at all (except in situations with older people and fragile skin) are potentially a problem when its injured or in serious pain.

I really wouldn't recommend a prong for this, but hopefully you won't have to use it long for her to learn the 'up' command. In addition to doing what you are doing, why not spend some time in a short training session with her in a down, then move off excitedly, saying 'up!!' and giving the treat quickly afterwards if she gets up (or even better, train the getting up behaviour and then start putting the word 'up' to it). Do just a couple of minutes every day for a week and you are going to very very rarely have to resort to the prong pop. After a week or two more she should always do it on command.

What is more important though really... is what is causing this behaviour? Is it because she doesn't want to go back inside? If you leave her alone outside does she spring up? Is she afraid of the backyard for some reason? It's often better and easier to try to fix the problem, instead of having to come up with more and more solutions.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

lyssa said:


> By the way, there is nothing wrong with some mouthing during play - so long as it is gentle and there are very distinct boundaries. Knightley knows I have very firm limits with mouthing play. We do a lot of play like that though.... I hook my fingers around his canines and drag him around with them, and he absolutely adores that. A dog who learns really well how to control the strength of its bite is a safe dog.
> 
> Dogs that aren't allowed to put their teeth on skin at all (except in situations with older people and fragile skin) are potentially a problem when its injured or in serious pain.
> 
> ...


Isn't finding a solution to a problem, a fix Also some people find a prong collar as a useful tool not something they have to resort to. Again everyone needs to find something that works for them and it seems to be working for Koda.


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Isn't finding a solution to a problem, a fix Also some people find a prong collar as a useful tool not something they have to resort to.


Ah, maybe I didn't make myself as clear as I could have. She is trying to find a solution for lying down and refusing to move. Whereas she could be instead trying to find and perhaps fix whatever is causing the pup to lie down in the first place. For instance, if Koda is shutting down because she would rather be playing outside because she finds inside boring in comparison, leaving a treat on the doorstep when you leave, so that she is super keen to get back inside, or a massive play session with her favourite toy as soon as they get back - whatever might work - may actually fix the initial cause of the whole issue. It could be caused by many different things, but instead of brushing over that and going straight for fixing the result of the problem, it may be better in the end to go for the cause.

As for seeing the prong as something she is resorting to... she is using it to teach a command, after trying several other solutions, in a way that quite possibly won't work very well. She is coupling a command, with an aversive, with positive techniques. She has already said Koda is a sensitive dog, and is doing a mish mash of training with her that may just confuse the dog. It kind of sounds like she just wants results at this stage (could be wrong here), even though there are other techniques that would work and are possibly more harmonious and confidence building for a sensitive dog. However, if it does work to teach Koda the up command and is only needed for a short time, then it'll do.

Personally, I think the main problem with prongs, other than the fact I am against aversives generally but support other peoples right to educated choice, is that people forget its older name: training collar. It is meant to be a short term collar before swapping back to a flat collar. Many people see them as a long term quick fix. If they use them for a month or two then go back to a flat collar, I can put up with them. I just don't tend to see that.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

lyssa said:


> Ah, maybe I didn't make myself as clear as I could have. She is trying to find a solution for lying down and refusing to move. Whereas she could be instead trying to find and perhaps fix whatever is causing the pup to lie down in the first place. For instance, if Koda is shutting down because she would rather be playing outside because she finds inside boring in comparison, leaving a treat on the doorstep when you leave, so that she is super keen to get back inside, or a massive play session with her favourite toy as soon as they get back - whatever might work - may actually fix the initial cause of the whole issue. It could be caused by many different things, but instead of brushing over that and going straight for fixing the result of the problem, it may be better in the end to go for the cause.
> 
> As for seeing the prong as something she is resorting to... she is using it to teach a command, after trying several other solutions, in a way that quite possibly won't work very well. She is coupling a command, with an aversive, with positive techniques. She has already said Koda is a sensitive dog, and is doing a mish mash of training with her that may just confuse the dog. It kind of sounds like she just wants results at this stage (could be wrong here), even though there are other techniques that would work and are possibly more harmonious and confidence building for a sensitive dog. However, if it does work to teach Koda the up command and is only needed for a short time, then it'll do.
> 
> Personally, I think the main problem with prongs, other than the fact I am against aversives generally but support other peoples right to educated choice, is that people forget its older name: training collar. It is meant to be a short term collar before swapping back to a flat collar. Many people see them as a long term quick fix. If they use them for a month or two then go back to a flat collar, I can put up with them. I just don't tend to see that.


Sometimes the simplest pop with the collar will cure it. No playing games, no more bribing with treats (which seems to be what got her trouble in the first place lol) It's working for her, why tell her to do anything different? She's working with a trainer. We go out and potty and come back in. Sounds simple enough to me lol! No confusion there. Seriously why can't people be happy for others who have found a solution that is not harming their dogs?


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> ...... no more bribing with treats (which seems to be what got her trouble in the first place lol)


I do not hold with 'bribing' or luring at all. I don't know if you saw any of the earlier posts from the more 'positive' trainers including myself, explaining why luring is not a very good way to deal with problem behaviours for a multitude of reasons. The OP did take the advice on board and has realised why it caused her problems.



Wyatt's mommy said:


> We go out and potty and come back in. Sounds simple enough to me lol! No confusion there. Seriously why can't people be happy for others who have found a solution that is not harming their dogs?


I also go out and come back in. But sometimes a dog will do something else, and that tells you that something isn't quite right. There is nothing wrong with figuring out what it is trying to tell you, and you could learn a lot from taking the time to listen. I find that attempting to read that body language and addressing what the dog is telling you instead of just 'fixing' what the dog is doing will give a deeper relationship and understanding. Read something by Suzanne Clothier about relationship based training if you are interested in this approach, as I find that putting the relationship above all else is a way to gain the dogs trust and respect. That is my personal view.

As for why I thought there may be a better solution...? She said her dog was sensitive, that is all. Prong collars are generally not thought of as ideal for the sensitive dog. Positive techniques can instead build confidence and of course have no impact on emotional or physical sensitivity. Fit the technique to the dog.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Lyssa - thanks for the concern. I really do feel the only reason she does this is because she would prefer to be outside rather than inside when it is nice. She never does this at night when it is dark or when it is rainy. She just enjoys it out there and I am happy to hang out with her the majority of the time but there will always be a time to come in and she never wants to do it. The mornings make sense because I leave after we come in and she doesn't want that either. I don't think there is another reason. I don't have a choice in leaving though as much as I would love to stay home. When we do take her out just to hang out we have to be with her because she is a digger and an eater. We have tried to leave her out there and come in she will get up and start eating things and digging which we are not okay with. I dont want her getting sick off sticks and rocks and stuff. So she has to go out and in when we can be with her. She has been on the prong collar for training her to heel and other things and it has not seemed to affect her adversely whatsoever. I wouldn't do it if it did. She is perfectly fine with it. I would hope this is short term needing to do it and like I said sometimes I dont need to give her a pop she will get back up when I say it now. Not always though...we are using it as a training method. We give her the command, she doesn't obey, we give a little pop and say it again, she does it, treat comes out and we party! I do need to focus her training on this more though, I agree. 

Again, thanks for the concern but I am confident in what we are doing now and I know it is not hurting her in any way nor is she confused.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

And we were looking for a quick fix we were looking to solve it. We knew why she was doing it just not how to change the behaviour and make her obey. Now using these training methods we are teaching her the command but she needs to know the command is not optional.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Have you tried calling her to you for a reward periodically while you're outside? It can break the association between coming to you and the end of outside time.

In fact, if you can break down some of the things you do before going inside and do them individually with rewards without ever actually going inside, you can teach her that all those things are fun and don't end playtime.

If 9 out of 10 of those actions involve play, praise, and treats, and only 1 involves going back inside, you can change her associations and therefore her behavior.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

So call her to me and reward and do this a couple times outside and then resume other things before I bring her inside?


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

baumgartml16 said:


> So call her to me and reward and do this a couple times outside and then resume other things before I bring her inside?


Exactly. Take all the pieces of what you do when you take her inside, and show her that they lead to fun and rewards, not to going inside. 

For example, when my dogs were younger, I'd call them to me a few times when we were outside playing. I'd put a hand on the collar, give the dog a treat, a scratch, and a "good boy" and then send him back to play. That way, he didn't build an association between being called and the end of funtime. 

I want to be able to recall my dog and put a hand his collar when I need to, so I want to build negative associations with that. I want 9/10 experiences to be rewarding so I can actually grab him when I need to without teaching him to dodge me. Ever see those dogs who dodge their owners? The dog comes close but knows that if he allows his collar to be grabbed, playtime is over (or that he might be yelled at too). My dogs will come over and sit to offer their collar because they find it super-rewarding and they don't have a negative association with it.

If your dog already has the negative association, you can break it back down by taking different elements of it and doing them by themselves.

For example, if you walk to her as part of your routine for getting her inside, walk over to her, treat and praise, and then walk away. If 9/10 times you walk over, treat, and praise, she'll come to expect that instead of the end of playtime, so she's less likely to start the Ghandi behavior pattern.

You can do the same with attaching a leash, if that's part of the normal routine. Go over, attach the leash, treat and praise, take the leash off, and walk away. It's all about showing her a different, positive result and teaching her that the fun thing is the norm and the unfun thing is the exception.


----------



## penparson (Sep 19, 2010)

Having to come inside on a beautiful day is not fun for a dog! Especially when you're digging, sniffing etc. Wakefield goes out on a line at our ski condo in Vermont, and I use the command "Inside" when its time to come in. He gets a small reward once he's in the house. He's gotten pretty good at this over the past couple of months. I've tried to separate "Inside" from the recall. I'm working with him on the emergency command "Come, Now" - still a work in progress.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

tippykayak - thanks for breaking it down like that. That is exactly what we are doing every day when I get home now. We usually go hang out outside till my hubby comes home for an hour or so and it will be the perfect chance to do all of these things! I need to work on the hand on collar bit too cuz I think she does have a negative association with it. 

Thanks everyone! All of the tips and suggestions are already making a world of difference with what we had going on a little over a week ago!


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Too many dogs learn that a collar grab means the end of fun at best and punishment at worst. If you work on positive associations, you get a dog who actually offers you his collar quite happily. 

I actually spent a few minutes yesterday as I watered the spring plantings breaking down the negative associations the dogs have with the hose. The only time I take it out and call a dog is when I'm going to spray him with it for a bath, so they both don't want to come near me when I have it. As I watered plants with it, I called the dogs over and praised/pet them a few times without spraying so bathtime can be a little less traumatic.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Love this. I am actually going to use it for grooming tools too. She hates to be groomed but maybe I will pull out the brush let her check it out give her some treats and put it back. Maybe she will learn to not hate it so much.

If you want to see what she does in the backyard check out the post I just put up in the main section that says "Does this remind you of your golden" or soething like that. There is a video of a dog not wanting to get out of bed. This is how she is when we ask her to come when she is outside - blank stare and lay to the side or back.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Phillyfisher said:


> Case in point, Shalva had a dog who refused to get her car. Shalva would have none of it and shoved her butt in the car. Now, I have read many of Shalva's posts, and I know from reading them, she knows her dogs inside and out. So I have no doubt Shalva knew exactly why her dog was refusing to get in the car and took the correct action.


I just want to say one thing... this dog was the wolfhound... I had worked on desensitizing and was starting to feel like the dog had me figured out and not vice versa... I will admit to not having a clue what to do... I know what would have worked for my goldens and flat coats but honestly I was at a loss... I wasn't getting anywhere.... I totally was able to isolate the incident that caused Natalie to be afraid of the back of the car but had no clue as to how to fix it... what i was doing wasn't working

so what did I do.... 

I called my breeder and said... I don't know what to do... what do I do... and my breeder is the one who suggested using a different door and making her get in the car a few times... that would not have been my nature but I was at a loss... this wolfhound temperament is just so different than what i am used to. I did what my breeder told me to do... even though I had my doubts about whether this would work or possibly make it worse... apparently car issues are a common problem in wolfhounds so this was not hte first time the breeder had dealt with a panicked puppy person unable to get their 130 lb dog in the car... 

but you are right it is a matter of knowing your dog...but don't think for a second that I always know what to do... we all have things we can learn and this hound is a whole new experience for me... I am learning as well.


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

For the dog who doesn't like being groomed you can definitely use treats - or play for those dogs who aren't food motivated, although food works better - to make it something they want to do. When my pup sees his toothbrush come out he comes running towards me in anticipation. It's all because I take the time to foster positive associations and do it nice and slow. With his toothbrush I just started by lifting a lip when he was a baby, and if he was good I said 'yes!' and gave a yummy treat. I'd do it a couple of times and that would be it, with a treat after every time. As time went on I'd lift more of a lip, then eventually go along inspecting all of his teeth. Then I starting touching them, then touched them with doggy toothpaste, then touched them with toothpaste on a small piece of cloth, then finally started gently with the toothbrush - just one tooth and then a party with lots of treats. This I did over several months, as slowly as it needed to go to be pleasurable. Now he loves it because of all the times he's got treats. He gets one treat at the end now but he has the memory of all the positive associations.

That's how you do it with grooming, nail clipping, hair drying too. It's called counter conditioning. Making something previously negative become positive. Do it from a young age and slow and steady wins the race and you'll have a dog that absolutely adores being groomed. I do a special set of training levels with Knightley, and one of the steps involved getting him used to being shaved - or at least the feel of clippers on him. We worked at it for weeks until he enjoyed it. Then lo and behold he swallowed some of my medication and had to go to the emergency vets and get a patch shaved for an IV injection. I didn't see it, but apparently he was just great. It is worth making your dog a joy to handle for times just like that.

At the moment I am trying to train my pup to pick up my crutches and hand them to me, but have discovered he is afraid to put his mouth on them for some reason. So I will have to go through this process with him.

Anyway, this is all slightly off topic...! But what tippykayak said about fostering good associations with grabbing the collar is true with so much in dog training - and in the case with collar holding, could potentially save your dogs life.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

It all comes down to each individual dog and owner for that matter. What works for one might not work for another. While some feel the need to feed treats constantly others can do it with a good old atta boy/girl.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> It all comes down to each individual dog and owner for that matter. What works for one might not work for another. While some feel the need to feed treats constantly others can do it with a good old atta boy/girl.


It seems like you have some hostility towards using treats in training?


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> It seems like you have some hostility towards using treats in training?


Nope not at all.


----------



## spiritdogs (May 17, 2008)

baumgartml16 said:


> Love this. I am actually going to use it for grooming tools too. She hates to be groomed but maybe I will pull out the brush let her check it out give her some treats and put it back. Maybe she will learn to not hate it so much.
> 
> If you want to see what she does in the backyard check out the post I just put up in the main section that says "Does this remind you of your golden" or soething like that. There is a video of a dog not wanting to get out of bed. This is how she is when we ask her to come when she is outside - blank stare and lay to the side or back.


I smear the fridge with Kraft cheese (you know, the stuff in the can) and then let the dog I'm training lap it while I start off with the back of the brush or comb. Gradually, I work up to being able to line brush the dog. There's nothing wrong with using food in training, and it's quite useful in this type of scenario when you want to change a dog's emotional response to something. If what you are after is a +CER to being groomed, then heck, pair grooming with something the dog cannot resist - cheese, cream cheese, tripe, who cares? As long as the classical conditioning gets done!


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> While some feel the need to feed treats constantly others can do it with a good old atta boy/girl.


I'm assuming you're having a bit of a poke at people like me who use positive training techniques. While I do use treats (and a clicker) to train *some* new behaviours, I would hardly say I feed them constantly. Once a behaviour is learnt, the treats are faded.

I'd be interested to see how you would train an out of room named retrieve with an 'atta boy'. Or a laser point shelf retrieve in a supermarket. Or perhaps retrieving a wheelchair by backing up pulling on an attached rope. Even closing a hinged corner cupboard may be tricky which my puppy learnt at not quite 5 months old. Some tasks a dog needs to learn need flexibility in the way they are taught. I try to look for the most effective solution that teaches the dog to learn even better and faster the next time around. 

Look at dogs learning long complex behaviour chains these days and it's operant conditioning and specifically clicker training that gets them there. To discount these frankly amazing techniques as 'feeding treats constantly' makes me just a little sad. At the end of a good training session with Knightley sometimes I just can't stop babbling "good boy!!!" over and over again whilst trying not to cry with joy, as we are so very close during the sessions, and he just adores learning - it is all one big lovely game for him. He thinks closing doors for me is the best thing since juicy steaks. No, he doesn't get treats for it. Hearing the door click makes his tail go mad.

I've been on both sides of the fence and I definitely know which one I am happier on. This side works better too IMHO!


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

lyssa said:


> I'm assuming you're having a bit of a poke at people like me who use positive training techniques. While I do use treats (and a clicker) to train *some* new behaviours, I would hardly say I feed them constantly. Once a behaviour is learnt, the treats are faded.
> 
> I'd be interested to see how you would train an out of room named retrieve with an 'atta boy'. Or a laser point shelf retrieve in a supermarket. Or perhaps retrieving a wheelchair by backing up pulling on an attached rope. Even closing a hinged corner cupboard may be tricky which my puppy learnt at not quite 5 months old. Some tasks a dog needs to learn need flexibility in the way they are taught. I try to look for the most effective solution that teaches the dog to learn even better and faster the next time around.
> 
> ...


Don't assume That is far from what this thread was about. Depending on the dog which has been mentioned in previous posts sometimes you just have to put your dogs butt in a car or simply pop his collar to get up. Sometimes they constantly work with them with treats. Whatever works for that individual dog and owner is the only thing that matters.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Nope not at all.


Can you see why we both thought that, based on what you wrote?


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I just don't see why people advocate for a solution that involves forcing a dog when there's a solution that involves rewarding the dog. It's just as easy, if not easier, and the risk of undesired side effects is lower.

We've had a couple of people who mentioned that forcing their dogs into the car who said it worked, and a couple who said it made things worse. Did anybody chime in to say that they used a positive reinforcement method that caused extra anxiety? Of course not, because it doesn't, even if you screw it up.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I just don't see why people advocate for a solution that involves forcing a dog when there's a solution that involves rewarding the dog. It's just as easy, if not easier, and the risk of undesired side effects is lower.
> 
> We've had a couple of people who mentioned that forcing their dogs into the car who said it work, and a couple who said it made things worse. Did anybody chime in to say that they used a positive reinforcement method that caused extra anxiety? Of course not, because it doesn't, even if you screw it up.


it also doesn't work for every dog in all situations... no more than any other method works for every dog in all situations. 

In my case if we are going to talk about shoving dog into car... 

I have a 130 lb Irish Wolfhound who slipped when getting into the back of the car on her ramp. She was deathly afraid of the back of the car. Instead of realizing that she survived the slip, she was convinced that she only barely survived and if she went in again she would surely be killed by the rear hatch. I worked at systematic desensitization for 6 weeks. I went through multiple containers of high volume treats, but she is not particularly food motivated... she often does not finish her dinner, I sat in the back of the car with her (a subaru forester with a back hatch door) laid in the car with her reading and petting her .... lots of praise lots of treats... as soon as I would make any kind of move that would indicate a move to the back she would turn on a dime and jump out of the hatch... so I had me in the car and my husband closed the hatch door... as soon as she saw him move in the direction of the car she would jump out.... she is 130 lbs and there is no way that I could PUT her in the car myself... there is also no way to keep a 130 lb dog with an extremely long tail in a car who doesn't want to be there while you close the hatch door. 

In the meantime I could not take this dog ANYWHERE.... in an emergency I couldn't get her to the VET, I could not socialize her, I couldn't get her to shows, I couldn't get her to our farm in New York... because I could not get her in the car... after 6 weeks I realized a couple things... she only got in the car if she was hungry and then only if I were in the back hatch with her... and all of a sudden it made sense... if I was in the car with her .... I COULDN'T close the hatch... she had it all figured out. I had worked on six weeks of desensitization which is how i had handled every other scared dog situation. I had my clicker and high value treats... and honestly I was starting to get worried... I had heard that this was a common problem in wolfhounds and I had also heard that many of them will refuse to get in a car. She was not afraid once she was in, it was the process of getting into the car that she was upset about. 

Well I was at a loss... I called my breeder who said that getting in the car is not optional ... that these hounds are super smart... they will figure it out and they will remember a scary incident forever... she suggested using another door... to the car... remember this is a wolfhound and a crate won't fit in the car... so use another door ... get in the car and pull her in with the leash with hubby behind her so she cant back out... get her in the car .... praise like crazy... give treat... tell her how silly she was... get out the other side... repeat... the breeder said it wouldn't take her long to figure out that it was easier to get in the car herself than to have us manhandle her into the car. 

It took 3 times

3 times of us forcing her into the car, me in the car, praise treat, out of the car for her to start jumping into the side door of the car on her own. Then I tried to do it on my own... and she balked so I got her collar and pulled/pushed her partway into the car and when she realized it didn't matter if dad was there or not, she jumped in... praise treat but she will now get in the car on her own with no issues. 

I still randomly treat and every time praise her for getting in the car. We only take her to fun places in the car for a while... 

Ideology is great... I prefer to use my clicker and treat... I LIKE having a dog that thinks and that is what the clicker and treat do. They teach your dog to think and make decisions and that is my go to method; but I also realize that sometimes I might have to move beyond that depending on the situation and the dog. I think to say that one method will work for all dogs in all situations is foolhardy. 

but that is my poor poor Natalie getting shoved into the car story... and now she can go to the beach, and the park, and hiking and she is not stuck at home and in an emergency I can get her to the vet.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

I worked with Koda last night and I already was able to see results. We worked on downs and then telling her up and she was doing it wonderfully. I went to call her inside and she laid down like she used to do. I walked over to her and said "Koda, up" she popped right up to a sit. I then grabbed the lead and said "Inside" and she actually started walking with me. There was a HUGE party when we got inside coupled with some awesome treats! I was so happy...I wish she had come the first time I called but I will take this over rolling over and not moving!!!  

We also did comes all over the backyard and I would hold her collar everytime. The first time she tried to pull away like I was going to bring her in but instead I said "okay, go play"...I think she was really confused LOL. We did a few more times and she had no thoughts of me dragging her anywhere anymore by the time we were done. 

We will do this all again tonight and even work on this with her grooming products. She is so scared of her ear cleaner that everytime we shake a bottle of any kind she runs and hides. Poor thing. I feel so bad that she is scared but it shows we approached it the wrong way before so we are going to do this and I think it will help.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Shalva said:


> It took 3 times
> 
> 3 times of us forcing her into the car, me in the car, praise treat, out of the car for her to start jumping into the side door of the car on her own. Then I tried to do it on my own... and she balked so I got her collar and pulled/pushed her partway into the car and when she realized it didn't matter if dad was there or not, she jumped in... praise treat but she will now get in the car on her own with no issues.
> 
> I still randomly treat and every time praise her for getting in the car. We only take her to fun places in the car for a while...


See, this makes sense to me. You tried one route first and only resorted to force when you saw no other option. It was an issue of safety and of having exhausted the more ideal options. That's a logic that makes sense to me. It's the people advocating for force as an early step or as a superior route to desensitizing/reinforcing that make no sense to me.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Shalva - so glad to hear Natalie is better with this. I can't imagine having a dog not wanting to get in the car. We take Koda everywhere so that would have made things difficult. Very happy she is able to go with places now and enjoy a lot more than just her house LOL.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

baumgartml16 said:


> I worked with Koda last night and I already was able to see results. We worked on downs and then telling her up and she was doing it wonderfully. I went to call her inside and she laid down like she used to do. I walked over to her and said "Koda, up" she popped right up to a sit. I then grabbed the lead and said "Inside" and she actually started walking with me. There was a HUGE party when we got inside coupled with some awesome treats! I was so happy...I wish she had come the first time I called but I will take this over rolling over and not moving!!!
> 
> We also did comes all over the backyard and I would hold her collar everytime. The first time she tried to pull away like I was going to bring her in but instead I said "okay, go play"...I think she was really confused LOL. We did a few more times and she had no thoughts of me dragging her anywhere anymore by the time we were done.
> 
> We will do this all again tonight and even work on this with her grooming products. She is so scared of her ear cleaner that everytime we shake a bottle of any kind she runs and hides. Poor thing. I feel so bad that she is scared but it shows we approached it the wrong way before so we are going to do this and I think it will help.


Hooray! That's great. Isn't it funny how they'll execute the reinforced skill (in this, case, "up") without realizing you're undoing their pattern?

BTW - for the future, the next time she lies down and you say "up" and she pops up, don't take her inside. Praise her right then and there, reinforce the "up" in that situation, and then go back to playing. Really decouple the new skills (like "up") from the end of playtime.

As far as grooming, it really helps to take out the unpleasant part (being held in place and having stuff squirted in your ear) out and just do all the associated bits. Get out a bottle and reward her, then just put it back. Get out a cotton ball and let her inspect it. Reward and put it away. Touch a cotton ball to her ear. Reward and put it away. Doing little things like this over the course of the day takes about 10 minutes of your time each day but will build positive associations.

Jax has had a couple of ear infections and HATES having his ears cleaned, but he'll come over and offer himself for an ear cleaning if he sees me get out the bottle and the cotton balls. It's because he loves getting treats and praise, and his positive associations with the process are currently stronger than his dislike of the sensation of being held firmly and having cold liquid squirted down his ear canal.

You don't seem confused about this, but some other people do, so I'll say it for clarity's sake: when I say "reward," I don't necessarily mean "give a treat." Treats are a great reward because they can be timed well and because many dogs find them highly rewarding. Good reinforcement, though, makes use of everything that a dog finds rewarding (praise, scratches, toys, games, etc.) and varies the type and intensity of the reward constantly. Always use your reward marker (either a click from your clicker or a "yes!" verbally or something similar), but change up the other rewards. That means not always using the same type and amount of treat, and it means not always using treats.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Yes - I agree with rewards. I do try to mix it up. We have a couple types of treats that are high reward for her so those get switched out daily and she doens't know what she is going to get. We also mix up how we reward. We do fun things when she does it right too like go off and run a little in the yard, we do fun tricks (touch, spin, ones she loves) and obviously tons and tons of praise and kisses and hugs. 

I had been doing ups in the yard before that and playing right after. I actually wasn't bringing her inside when I said it to her either (I should have clarified). I was having her come up to the door and treating and then going back out to play. I wanted her to come up to the door to get her leash off and not be afraid. So I did praise for doing the up command correctly and then we did an "inside" command with tons of happy praise and then we went right back out and played. Next time I will play before the inside command though. Thanks for that tip!


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

As much as a clicker is a powerful tool for training, sometimes, like with the experience with the wolfhound and the car... it isn't enough to work. There are other tools in the positive training arsenal other than classical/operant conditioning though. One of my favourite ones is something called BAT (Behaviour Adjustment Training), and instead of using treats/play etc as a reward, it uses the relief from stress as a reward. I can think of half a dozen other techniques I would have tried with a dog with a fear of cars before trying BAT, but it is a great option to keep in mind. 

The idea behind BAT is you acknowledge that your dog is stressed in the situation you have put it in, eg near or in the car, but you watch its body language very carefully. If possible you attempt to perhaps relax it by shaping/luring/massage (basically normal classical or operant techniques) and as soon as you have any success, you take the dog away! This means the dog learns it can control its environment by relaxing. The instant it accepts the situation, it doesn't have to put up with it anymore. 

This is particularly successful technique for dogs who are afraid of men on walks, or objects... or a whole load of things. You might walk behind a man, following them... and yes, your dog will be stressed. However, as soon as you see it relaxing a bit because the man's back is to you (non threatening) and nothing bad is happening, you reward that relaxation by turning away.

The more the dog learns to relax, the more you will turn away. Basically the dog is controlling its own environment - which really is what it tried to do with showing its fear/aggressiveness but it often never really works well for the dog. Then slowly you lengthen the time until you leave the situation, but the dog knows if it stays calm and relaxed that it still gets to leave, because it always has and it trusts you. Instead of trying to get the dog to stay in the car for longer periods of time, it would be rewarded for quality, not length. Length would come slowly as a natural process.

I hope this makes sense. BAT is a wonderful thing, done right, and this is only a very very basic description of it.

If you're going through big containers of treats on one technique then it's time to try another one... and obviously you did with pushing your dog in. However as the saying goes about positive solutions "there's as many solutions for a problem as trainers to come up with them".

By the way baumgartml16, you sound really on the right track with training your "up" and "inside". One nice thing to do is leave a sneaky super high value treat just inside the door on the floor as you leave (without her seeing if possible) so when she comes in she'll have a wonderful surprise. If you do it maybe 25-50% of the time she comes inside she'll always be keen to get inside and see if that special magic appearing treat is there waiting for her. 

When she sees it you may want to tell her it's ok to eat it or something, I would give Knightley permission with an "go eat it!" in that situation. If I don't tell him that then anything on the floor is not to be eaten, but in my case that is partly because I can't bend to pick up things so it's a precaution. Knightley is my pick up boy since he learnt to do it reliably several weeks ago - until then it was a reach stick. However, I don't trust him to pick up bits of food for me yet!!! He's only a puppy still afterall!


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Can you see why we both thought that, based on what you wrote?


Nope all I saw is my posts being taken out of context once again. I also posted this in the same post but for some reason it meant nothing:

*It all comes down to each individual dog and owner for that matter. What works for one might not work for another*



tippykayak said:


> See, this makes sense to me. You tried one route first and only resorted to force when you saw no other option. It was an issue of safety and of having exhausted the more ideal options. That's a logic that makes sense to me. *It's the people advocating for force as an early step or as a superior route to desensitizing/reinforcing that make no sense to me*.


I could be wrong but I don't see any posts advocating this. Look I have worked with 3 different trainers in my life time (make that 4 I forgot about the snake avoidance class) All of them used different techniques and *all have their own opinions that their techniques is the right one*. If I was in one class and used what I learned from another trainer, they freaked out and said it was completely wrong. I found out from experience that what one trainer taught me with one of my dogs didn't work with the other and vise verse. So I used what I learned from* ALL *of them and used what worked with each individual dog. However god forbid I told each trainer that I used techniques from all of them and it worked like a charm I also learned that both my dogs had completely different personalities and that if I used a technique that one trainer thought was force or a superior route, was infact nothing more than a "ok mom thanks for reminding me" to my dog. One size does not fit all. And that doesn't mean I am hostile or poking fun at positive treat training. Why would I be? I use this technique often. However I use other techniques also which work and not because it was a last resort. It was what fit that dogs personality.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Nope all I saw is my posts being taken out of context once again. I also posted this in the same post but for some reason it meant nothing:
> 
> *It all comes down to each individual dog and owner for that matter. What works for one might not work for another*


That doesn't supersede the fact that the sentence before it seems to indicate a preference for the "attaboys" over the treats. When two people independently read your sentence the same way, chances are that's your fault, not a willful choice to "take it out of context."



Wyatt's mommy said:


> And that doesn't mean I am hostile or poking fun at positive treat training. Why would I be? I use this technique often. However I use other techniques also which work and not because it was a last resort. It was what fit that dogs personality.


Just like some people feel any discussion of the downsides of the collar is the same thing as equating it to abuse, there's a lot of context of people looking down at "cookie pushing" as a wishy-washy, ineffective way of training, and it's certainly been done quite a bit in this thread. Your previous post came across that way. That doesn't mean I don't believe you when you now say that isn't what you intended. I believe you. No need to keep rehashing it. 

And again, I'm all about adapting the training to the dog, but there are also absolute lines I won't cross and things I advise people against because I either believe they're unethical or because I believe they carry too high a risk of adverse side effects in the given situation.

Again, going back to the context of this entire thread, this dog needed positive reinforcement and consistency, not harsher punishment, and it's working out for this owner. The positive reinforcement approach has allowed them to avoid having to pop the dog with a prong collar. Isn't that a good thing? This training is adapting well to this dog. There really isn't a whole lot else to say.


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

Techniques are only ok if they fit the dogs personality? What if you choose wrongly? This is a happy but sensitive dog so it needs positive handling or I'll crush its spirit? This is a dominant dog with aggressive tendencies (completely outdated wording but some still use it) so I'll go for a more traditional approach? What if dog one is wagging only out of excitement/misplaced aggression and the other is fearful and is trying to stay in control of its environment because of the fear? Surely the second choice could be problematic because the person choosing this personality based approach isn't well versed on body language. Aggression is so often mislabled, when it is so frequently fear based. Positive training techniques are fantastic at increasing the confidence of these dogs. If you chose positive always, then no damage will be done. Positive is a great approach for all dogs - *especially *those with fear based aggression, hyperactivity, general reactivity and many more behavioural issues... 

Read books like _Click to calm_, _Control Unleashed_, _Help for your fearful dog: A Step-by-Step Guide to Helping Your Dog Conquer His Fears_ and read about TTouch massage to begin to get an idea of the power and flexibility of both general positive and clicker training in what they can do for ALL types of dogs but especially troubled dogs. If they can heal troubled dogs, of course they can handle the various personalities of our balanced pets!

As for whether people here were advocating the more force based solutions as the last course of action.... well I would see dragging a dog upright by its collar as a more physical and definitely force based solution. You are forcing the dog upright. No choices. No feedback on what is wrong. It wasn't last resort solution - it was the first suggestion for a good handful of people here. I have of course seen much worse force based solutions, and heard of far far worse.... but it is still forcing a dog to do something.

It's great that you prefer your clicker Shalva, that one little box has already changed my life amazingly! I guess that's why I'm so pro positive training. I did some novice with my previous dog before I got sick in a more 'traditional' style.... even with a choke chain (GASP!!). Now I am training entirely with a clicker and other positive techniques like BAT, others from _Control Unleashed_, using massage like TTouch and much much more my puppy has come along amazingly. 

At 8.5 months he is a real help around the house, and I didn't expect him to start helping me until he was at least a year old. The most wonderful thing is he absolutely loves doing it, it gets his tail wagging madly. Sometimes when I train something new I sit there for a bit and wonder how you would even begin to start training it without a clicker... or without positive techniques at all. I do know clickers have opened a whole new world for service/assistance dog trainers, and allowed dogs to do things for people that they never did before. Like you said Shalva, it creates a thinking dog, but it also means that over time Knightley actually learns how to learn. Every skill he learns contributes to his knowledge of how to learn better and faster.

I only push these techniques because I see how amazing they are in my life, and in the lives of people like me. They also can never do any harm to a dog, no matter how badly done when you are learning, and anything you train can be easily untrained and retrained. Don't like the speed of your dogs down? Don't just try to perfect it! Train an entirely new down!

Gah, I always write too much when I am passionate about the topic. By the way, for those who want a great clicker program to follow, you can't go wrong with Sue Ailsby's Training Levels. I use her books SHOP REAL BOOKS (well worth the money), but you can use her shorter older *free *Levels also. They start with the most basic of sits/down/leave it and take it up to title dog sport/service dog level. If you've never used a clicker before they are a fine place to start.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> That doesn't supersede the fact that the sentence before it seems to indicate a preference for the "attaboys" over the treats.* When two people independently read your sentence the same way, chances are that's your fault, not a willful choice to "take it out of context."*
> 
> *Nope, clearly taken out of context. *
> 
> ...


That's great and I will always have an open mind that all dogs are individuals and that there are different techniques that every individual can decide to teach for their own individual dog, not just one. 

As far as Koda goes. Her trainer taught her the pop with the prong and it worked. Who's to say Koda didn't learn from just a few pops? Sometimes that is all it takes and in my experience and Koda's moms, it was harmless. I'm glad she is spending more time practicing with her, but that doesn't mean what she did was harsh or that it didn't work. It's not one way or the highway lol!


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> That's great and I will always have an open mind that all dogs are individuals and that there are different techniques that every individual can decide to teach for their own individual dog, not just one.


I don't think anybody in the thread has advocated that a single technique works for every dog.



Wyatt's mommy said:


> As far as Koda goes. Her trainer taught her the pop with the prong and it worked. Who's to say Koda didn't learn from just a few pops?


'Cause it sounded like she kept having to do it until she changed techniques, and only then did the dog do it on command more reliably.



Wyatt's mommy said:


> Sometimes that is all it takes and in my experience and Koda's moms, it was harmless. I'm glad she is spending more time practicing with her, but that doesn't mean what she did was harsh or that it didn't work. It's not one way or the highway lol!


Nobody said that it was one way or the highway lol. I didn't say the prong approach was harmful, simply that the approach that turned out to be more effective (breaking down the behavior and positively reinforcing elements) was also one that carried a lower potential for unwanted side effects.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I don't think anybody in the thread has advocated that a single technique works for every dog.
> 
> I sure hope not lol! Cause it doesn't.
> 
> ...


LOL! More effective? I believe Koda got the message loud and clear with the prong without any adverse side effects. Just as her trainer advised. But hey what do I know: Maybe we should ask HER trainer?


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

The main problem with the more physical solutions (and I'm including a prong in this although it is milder than dragging a dog upright by its collar which I see as a lack of respect), is while you may not see damage done immediately by its use, it can happen in the days or weeks following.

There are a lot of studies being done these days on the damage physical solutions does to the behaviour of dogs. While it may not be immediate, it can become apparent over varying amounts of time. It can be relatively mild, like ignoring commands, or attention seeking behaviours. At its worst it can elicit aggression, fear of you and its environment, protectiveness and resource guarding, anxiety, even stomach problems. The list goes on. Just google "study positive dog training" and you'll find a whole bunch. 

The important point is that you *can't ever *do damage with positive methods, except for maybe making your dog a bit overweight if you don't reduce its meals enough to take into account the extra calories.

While Koda did get up when the prong was popped, it was more of a 'I don't like that feeling, ok yes I'll move maybe that'll work' rather than truly learning the "up!" cue. She was being given the command "up" and if she disobeyed was getting the pop. Clicker training and similar teaches a dog to think, it gives the dog choices and rewards them, rather than punishes them for not obeying something. Popping a prong certainly doesn't give much of a choice. By leaving the prong alone and teaching the cue Koda is now really learning what "up" means although the idea of up was introduced by working with the prong. Personally I would have taught an entirely new cue name. However, now she has a choice, and she is getting up on the first go instead of needing a pop to get her going...... and well, I'd say that's a complete success in every way. Why use a prong if you don't have to?


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> LOL! More effective? I believe Koda got the message loud and clear with the prong without any adverse side effects. Just as her trainer advised. But hey what do I know: Maybe we should ask HER trainer?


It sounded like she had to have the prong on Koda each time until she switched methods and now Koda gets up on command without physical compulsion. Regardless, the second method doesn't carry the potential for the problems the prong did, and it's better suited to this dog in this situation.

This is the last thing she said about the prong.



baumgartml16 said:


> We say "up". If she doesn't do it we give her a light pop and say it again. Sometimes she gets up on the first command and haven't had to say it more than twice.


Then she posted to say that Koda started doing it on command when she worked on the behavior with positive reinforcement in the house and then tried it outside. It's hard to say this is a great example supporting either method conclusively.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

lyssa said:


> *The main problem with the more physical solutions (and I'm including a prong in this although it is milder than dragging a dog upright by its collar which I see as a lack of respect), is while you may not see damage done immediately by its use, it can happen in the days or weeks following.*
> 
> *There are a lot of studies being done these days on the damage physical solutions does to the behaviour of dogs. While it may not be immediate, it can become apparent over varying amounts of time. It can be relatively mild, like ignoring commands, or attention seeking behaviours. At its worst it can elicit aggression, fear of you and its environment, protectiveness and resource guarding, anxiety, even stomach problems. The list goes on. Just google "study positive dog training" and you'll find a whole bunch. *
> 
> ...


Lol! You don't think that by popping a collar the dog is not learning or thinking? They have a choice just the same. You don't have to take away the reward just because you gave a pop. When they comply give them praise, toss them a treat. _And again this is for dogs that know all their basic command_. I'm pretty sure Koda knew what up meant she just chose not to do it.


----------



## Tucker's mommy (Nov 9, 2011)

Okay guys. I'm late to the uptake on this particular post, and I have a pressing question related to stubborn dogs. BUT - ours takes it an unfortunate step further and challenges us with snarling and snapping when we force him to do something he doesn't want. WHAT DO YOU DO in this situation? Isn't using positive reinforcement in this case establishing a pattern in the dogs head, where he thinks that this "aggressive" behaviour, is part of his repertoire? How do you change this type of reaction in a POSITIVE way? We're working with a professional trainer on this one, but I'd love to hear what some of you think on this as well.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Is he actually getting mean with the snarling/snapping or are you talking mouthing?


----------



## Tucker's mommy (Nov 9, 2011)

It's snarling/snapping, with a nip thrown into the mix once in a while. Not a pretty site.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tucker's mommy said:


> It's snarling/snapping, with a nip thrown into the mix once in a while. Not a pretty site.


This is a perfect example of why bodily forcing a dog isn't a good go-to method in the first place. You need to stop doing it at all and completely change tactics. Every time you force him and he snarls and snaps, you confirm that as his response.

My guess is that it's anxiety, not aggression that you're seeing. He's learned that he can stop you from doing what he doesn't want you to do.

Might I suggest a new thread so you can get more individualized responses to your problem?


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Tucker's mommy said:


> Okay guys. I'm late to the uptake on this particular post, and I have a pressing question related to stubborn dogs. BUT - ours takes it an unfortunate step further and challenges us with snarling and snapping when we force him to do something he doesn't want. WHAT DO YOU DO in this situation? Isn't using positive reinforcement in this case establishing a pattern in the dogs head, where he thinks that this "aggressive" behaviour, is part of his repertoire? How do you change this type of reaction in a POSITIVE way? *We're working with a professional trainer on this one,* but I'd love to hear what some of you think on this as well.


What is your trainer doing to help this situation?


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Lol! You don't think that by popping a collar the dog is not learning or thinking? They have a choice just the same. You don't have to take away the reward just because you gave a pop. When they comply give them praise, toss them a treat. _And again this is for dogs that know all their basic command_. I'm pretty sure Koda knew what up meant she just chose not to do it.


A leash pop is not much of a choice. Even if it is done in such a way so that the dog is only uncomfortable and not in actual pain, it is likely to move as part of an unthinking reaction to stimuli. A dog doesn't actually have to think about it to do this. Lying still, * incomprehensible word from human*, ugh that's not pleasant! moves automatically, phew no more unpleasantness. The choice is to lie still and get popped again, yes? Not much of a choice, which is what I pointed out before as there being a choice but not much of one.

Of course you can treat if you want to, but the premise behind training with adversives is the lack of unpleasantness is a reward in itself. In otherwords, when there is no punishment, the dog realises it must have done the right thing. A treat is going to be nice for the dog and will act as a secondary reinforcer, but it is the relief from not getting popped/shocked/grabbed/alpha rolled etc that is the main reward. 

IMHO those who use both positive punishment and positive reinforcement (pos pun is using adversives like saying "no!!", using a choke chain or prong, or at worst doing alpha rolls or forced downs) are at least on the right track but need to do some serious reading about the consequences of adversives. This is not me talking now, this is tens if not hundreds of the latest scientific studies and all the dog behaviourists and psychologists. These studies show training with positive reinforcement (plus a little negative punishment where you take the thing the dog wants away, like walking backwards when the dog pulls, and some negative reinforcement like when you are in a stressful situation for the dog and to reward it for dealing well with it    you walk away) is by far the most successful for creating a more obedient dog and a less aggressive, more stable dog. Here's a link to the quadrants showing positive/negative punishment and positive/negative reinforcement and which is which.

*Ok now for Tucker's mommy.*

Obviously his behaviour is already part of his repertoire. 

Once a dog has done something and it has had the desired effect, it is very likely to repeat it again. For instance, with resource guarding the dog has an item it isn't meant to have, owner comes to take it away, dog suddenly snarls and lunges, owner is very shocked, jumps back in surprise and doesn't take object away because he/she is scared. The dog then files this away in its brain as a 'yes this worked' and even if it never works again, it will growl, lunge, do whatever it can to keep its purloined object.

This is the same for biting. Once a dog has bitten once, it is vastly more likely to bite again (and I mean a real bite here, skin broken). This is especially true for a fear bite, as dogs can get very stressed out with adrenaline from repeated fear and anxiety based incidents, and it just keeps happening and happening. Of course you can minimise the risk and work at it, and you certainly should, but if a dog has done something more than once, it is firmly part of its repertoire. Positive reinforcement can help break the cycle of adrenaline

So, you say snarling and snapping. Well, we'd need to know in what situation. Basically, you need to stop it from happening and change the associations with the behaviour to positive ones. Like if you have the dog on the couch and want him off it and the dog very much doesn't want to give up the spot, a fantastic treat thrown to the floor (before any effort is made to get him off) is a good way to go. After a while start saying a word as the same time as you throw down the treat. Then start saying the word fractionally before you throw the treat. Then well before. The dog learns giving up the couch to you is a pleasant thing and it doesn't have to be all about anger.

This is an example of course. Without knowing the situations he gets snarly in it's all anyone can do. But there certainly is no problem using positive reinforcement with aggressive tendencies. Many very aggressive dogs have been rehabilitated with these techniques. Perhaps order yourself _Click to Calm_. I hope your trainer is using positive reinforcement, as dogs with even small issues can end with big problems as they can sometimes escalate massively if treated with more 'traditional' methods.


----------



## marsh mop (Mar 13, 2009)

Tucker's Mom, 
You hired a trainer. Do you trust this trainer? If you do trust your trainer do what they tell you to do. If you get improvements you are on the right track. ALWAYS take the advice of your trainer. If not find a trainer that fits you and your dog.
Never take the advice of some one who has never seen your dog or knows your dog for training isues. They just type till they wear the rest of us down.
Jim


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

lyssa, when you give your dog a command that they know, that is when they make that choice. Regardless of what technique you use.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I think that it is wholely irresponsible to give training advice on a dog that is showing teeth, snarling and snapping without ever meeting or seeing that dog and how that dog interacts with others. 

This person is working with a trainer who has hands on the situation, in my mind this is exactly the same as giving medical advice without examining the dog.


----------



## Tucker's mommy (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks, Jim - I know you're right on this one, regarding listening to the trainer. I am seeing improvement with what the trainer told us (I had an entire thread related to our issues titled "anyone out there ever deal with serious dominance issues?" I just posted an update today - it's in the behaviour issues section.) The trainer has us spraying Tucker with vinegar solution when he snaps back or bites at us. I just know so many people out there are against any training that's not total positive reinforcement nowadays. I'm pretty sure it's not an anxiety thing - as some of the growling and snapping/nipping occurs when I'm on the couch and he walks up to me asking oh-so-nicely for his dinner.

We ARE seeing improvement. I think I'm being impatient and want a magically fast solution. I know that any good training method is not magically fast! But we're seeing steps in the right direction after one week. 

Please - if anyone wants to pipe in with personal feedback regarding our situation, read my recent post in the behaviour issues section. I'd link it here, but I don't know how to do that. I don't want to repeat myself - I have written in that post exactly what it is we're doing with Tucker to re-direct and continue training. Mostly great positive reinforcement methods we all know so well.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Is the anti-positive crowd so committed to the position that they now pooh-pooh the very idea of giving advice? Even though somebody asked for that advice? And even though many of you are happy to offer lots and lots of advice about dogs you've never seen in other threads?

My guess is that y'all didn't even bother to read the response (as marsh mop's post makes eminently clear), since lyssa made it quite clear she was laying out general principles about dealing with a biter, not creating a specific training plan for Tucker's Mom.

Spraying a dog in the face with vinegar when he shows fear or aggression is about the worst training advice I've ever heard, but if you guys are so committed to your ideology, your clique, and winning an internet argument that you're willing to endorse it, go for it.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Just to be clear, TM, I don't think you're a bad owner for doing the vinegar spray thing. In fact, quite the contrary. You sought out a professional's advice for your problem with your dog. I just really, really don't think the vinegar spray is really a good idea here.


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

I have to admit, I had to really really bite my typing-version-of-a-tongue to not respond to the fact she was told to spray the dog with vinegar water in that other thread. Once again, not that Tucker's mommy is at fault, but the trainer is certainly a bit .... interesting.

To combine that with clicker training is like multiple personality training. It just doesn't quite make sense. What if it gets in the dogs eyes??

As for not giving advice. She actually ASKED if it was likely to become part of the dogs repertoire if positive reinforcement solutions were used. I answered!! What is wrong with that? If Tucker's mommy's dog was a biter (breaking skin, drawing blood) I would tell her to go straight to a professional trainer and wouldn't be offering advice. 

Snarling and snapping with an occasional *nip* is a very different dog. This is a dog who is in the warning stage. Dangerous, but you can certainly do a lot yourself by redirection and positive training. Why on earth wouldn't I answer a person who is asking for information?

Gah. This is starting to get a bit silly.

Edited to say: I don't just type until I wear people down you know. I do type what I see as sense after a great deal of reading and research, contact and networking with many experienced and well thought of trainers throughout the world. I am actually trying to *help* people and their dogs. I'm not doing it to listen to the sound of my own voice (typing?). Some people may not have the time and opportunity (and need) to do all the reading I have done, so I sum it up and put it in my posts. It isn't just ********, trying to be righteous and trying to be 'the only way'. I also have a fairly reasonable amount of experience with several dogs, so it isn't just book learning. I am training my pup to a high level to be a mobility assistance dog. It's not like I know nothing. I am just trying to help and yet when I give advice when it asked for I am told off. GAH.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

lyssa said:


> Gah. This is starting to get a bit silly.


For some folks (not everybody), it's more about personalities and positions than it is about helping the dog.


----------



## marsh mop (Mar 13, 2009)

> [/Is the anti-positive crowd so committed to the position that they now pooh-pooh the very idea of giving advice? QUOTE]
> So now any one who does not train their pup the way you train yours part of the anti-positive crowd. I am against giving advice on dogs I do not know. If you know this dog better than the trainer they are using then speak out.


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

She. Asked. For. Advice.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

marsh mop said:


> So now any one who does not train their pup the way you train yours part of the anti-positive crowd. I am against giving advice on dogs I do not know. If you know this dog better than the trainer they are using then speak out.


Not at all; I have respect for a wide variety of training styles, including styles that make use of aversives. When I say "the anti-positive crowd," I'm referring to the folks who came to the thread solely to tear down the idea of training these dogs with few or no aversives, the folks who came to mock and make personal comments more than offer concrete advice to owners who ask for it. 

I don't even really agree with all of lyssa's advice. I'm skeptical, for example, of the value she places on massage. But I respect that she took the time to try to help a forum member who asked for it, just like I respect Shalva's advice, even though I don't agree with all of it. I respect that they're both well-informed, experienced people who are providing help to people who are asking for it.

And the philosophy you express here sort of begs the question of why you'd participate on a training forum in the first place. People come here even when they work with professionals in order to get other perspectives. I generally agree that a trainer who actually works directly with the dog has a huge advantage in coming up with an effective plan and that somebody like TM should weigh that when weighing the value of the advice. However, it's pretty clear that people sometimes end up hiring trainers who turn out to be idiots, and they can find that out by coming here and getting other perspectives.

Lyssa's trying to help. TM is now in the position to evaluate what lyssa said vs. what her trainer is saying to make an even more informed decision. That's a good thing, and she should be respected for trying to offer well-informed help and support when somebody asks for it, not told to shut up.

I notice that you're not throwing your support behind this trainer's actual advice...


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

baumgartml16 said:


> Love this. I am actually going to use it for grooming tools too. She hates to be groomed but maybe I will pull out the brush let her check it out give her some treats and put it back. Maybe she will learn to not hate it so much.


I've been taking lessons with a good OTCH trainer, and she really had a useful suggestion: when you do give a treat, make a moment out of it. Make sure there is true connectedness with the dog, pat her chest, say yes, give the gift of your full attention. I know you've taken Koda to puppy class, so your watch command is good for these moments. Increase the time she is happy to make peaceful, alert eye contact with you, and then reward her for Watch. If you cement the working relationship, the specific problems will get easier to address. Dogs default to doing what they practice most, so it is a lovely feeling when you have dogs who default to happily watching your face and wanting to work with you.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I think a dog peeing on the floor... or counter surfing or whatever is a whole different story than one who is snapping, and snarling... I have no issues with giving advice when there is not a safety issue either to dog or the humans involved. 

I generally always object to giving advice in medical situations ... the should I take my dog to the vet posts... well if you have any doubts then yes.... I can't see your dog or touch your dog, its not my dog... if you think you should go to the vet then go... and I generally do object when I see folks just giving medical advice... 

I don't honestly see this as any different. There is a danger of someone getting bitten, there is a danger of the dog biting and being PTS... so no I don't think that advice should be given...especially when the person has already sought professional help. We have all seen folks that we give our advice to and because of the limitations of the medium, they take bits and pieces of it and then put it into place and don't do it correctly or they misunderstand or honestly they simply don't know how to properly read their dogs behavior. I agree that most aggression is anxiety like you said this poster said no its not. I tend to still think its anxiety and a lack of confidence but this could either be that we are clueless about what is really going on or the person is unable to really read the dogs behavior because it looks like something else that an experienced person would be able to SEE... This is the biggest problem with Cesar Milan (amongst other things) but the fact is that he has a hour long tv show and people try to train their dogs based on what they see in this show... Its what they don't see that also is important. 

So no, it has nothing to do with what kind of training you use or don't use... I don't think it is responsible to give advice on how to deal with an aggressive dog (for whatever reason) where there is a chance of someone getting harmed over the internet.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

" so no I don't think that advice should be given... we have all seen folks that we give our advice to and because of the limitations of the medium, they take bits and pieces of it and then put it into place and don't do it correctly or they misunderstand or honestly they simply don't know how to properly read their dogs behavior."

Yes I think the above happens all the time. I have given advice and then a few days, a week, even a month later I read that the person I gave advice to is totally doing something different (that I find harms the dog and relationship) and it is really sad and upsetting. 

At this point imo what it comes down to is ...
TM has to decide if she has confidence in her trainer and the program set out for her. If she does then she needs to contact her trainer with all of her questions and with any new behaviors that Tucker may be doing during the program and see if the plan is going in the right direction or if it needs tweeked.
If she is uncomfortable with her trainer or the plan and after a discussion with the trainer still doesn't feel comfortable she needs to move on to someone that is a better fit for her and Tucker.

The responsibility is with TM. She chose to ask for advice. She is an adult and should realize that without seeing and interacting with the dog we don't have the whole picture and that she will receive good and bad advice.

I didn't go back and look at Lyssa's advice again but she is giving advice that doesn't have compulsion/force involved and would be more in diffusing a situation. IMO, her advice isn't dangerous in itself.

The problem arises if TM starts mixing in training advice from the internet with the program the trainer has given. This can set back the trainers program and can confuse Tucker more. 

TM was also given a recommendation of two other trainers in her area if she feels the need to move on.

She was also told earl
y on in the other thread that mixing different techniques outside of what her trainer was telling her could confuse Tucker more and she still came and asked for more advice.

We need to be supportive of TM. She needs to gain confidence and lower her own stress levels and not see everything Tucker is doing is a plot against her.


----------



## Tucker's mommy (Nov 9, 2011)

To Koda's mom - I am SO SORRY that a comment I made ended up hijacking this thread. And to everyone who is wondering if I really know how to read my dog's issues, the honest answer is NO - I cannot properly read these behaviour issues. And no, I'm not sure the current trainer is properly reading these issues either. The reason we didn't seek even earlier help was because his behaviour as a young pup truly looked like a young pup playing/testing. That could very well be what is STILL going on. But the fact that he is still showing these behaviours as a 70 pound 10 month old after constant positive reinforcement/redirection/short crate timeouts is a big problem for us (along with the fact that the jumping/biting/nipping whatever you call it while carrying my 2 year old daughter up our outdoor staircase is downright scary). I'm calling a behaviourist today. I guess through all of your back and forth "debating"  here, you've really opened my eyes to how important it is that we are correctly interpreting this behaviour. There may be several things going on here. Testing, definitely. Some power struggles with me, his primary caregiver, who happens to weigh 103 and have a soft voice and be very motherly - maybe. True aggression issues - NO - but if we don't get the proper help - this could DEFINITELY escalate into a bigger problem. I'll keep everyone updated on the post I started last week regardig "dominance" issues. And yes, the word is in quotes - I know what a debate this topic tends to cause!!!!


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Shalva said:


> So no, it has nothing to do with what kind of training you use or don't use... I don't think it is responsible to give advice on how to deal with an aggressive dog (for whatever reason) where there is a chance of someone getting harmed over the internet.


I do respect this opinion, though I respectfully disagree with it. When people come and ask for advice, I think it does more good than harm to give them advice, especially if you give it with full awareness of the limits of forum advice. This situation is a perfect example. Spraying a dog in the face with vinegar is going to ruin the dog's trust and suppress the behavior without addressing the underlying causes. I don't think I need to see the dog to offer a useful perspective on that. I think TM is better off getting some advice from several perspectives here on GRF and then evaluating it and the trainer's advice herself.

For the record, I think all of your posts in this thread have been about helping people and dogs, not about ideology or personality. That's the kind of exchange that makes GRF a good place, even though we disagree quite a bit on approaches here.


----------



## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

For the record, the advice TM asked for was whether using positive techniques to redirect or deal with (can't remember the exact words) snarling/snapping type behaviour would fix the behaviour into the dog's repertoire of behaviour. That is what I answered. I did not tell her what to do to try as a solution or anything, I even used completely different situations (a resource guarder and a confirmed dangerous biter) as a way to explain behaviour 'repertoires'.

I just really don't know why people took exception to it. I just re-read what I wrote and I gave absolutely no specific advice about her dog. As I just stated, I gave some examples about resource guarding, resource guarding of a couch, and the biter. However that was in reference to behaviour repertoires. All I said about TM's dog is that I couldn't venture an opinion without knowing a lot more about the situations in which it was snarling/snapping.

Also, as I mentioned before, I wouldn't give advice about a biter, but there is an awful lot of difference between a snarler/snapper and a biter. Completely different beasts. There is a lot you can do yourself to improve matters with snarling and snapping, especially when it is just starting. With biting of any kind (and I mean breaking the skin/blood etc) you go straight to a professional whose views are on the same wavelength as yours. Don't be afraid to give your prospective professional a bit of a job interview. If you don't agree with each other, it likely isn't going to work.

Even if I did give advice about a biter, which I wouldn't, it wouldn't hurt anyone. It's not like I would advocate a Cesar Millan-like strategy and tell people to get right in there with a biter, and alpha roll their dogs. Crazy. It's no wonder animal welfare agencies and dog behaviourists and psychologists across the US constantly petition to get that show off TV. One man (and a few others like him) have put dog training and psychology back a good 20 years + across a good chunk of the western world. It's doing crazy physical intervention like that that gets you hurt, not positive reinforcement techniques. Having said that, I still wouldn't give advice about a biter as people don't always follow directions..... This thread is proof enough about how people don't read what is said! lol

Spraying with vinegar is a rather worrying technique... I didn't really want to discuss what TM was doing with her trainer, but it has been brought up now. Suppressing behaviours like growling, snarling and snapping makes a dog far more dangerous. This is because these behaviours are a dog's warning signs. They are saying "hey, this is getting a bit much for me, look at my big white teeth and back off now, or I may even consider having to bite you if you continue to push me" even though they may be a long way from biting, or may never even do it. Dogs need to have those warning behaviours uninhibited for communication purposes. What can happen if you try to stop those warnings is you have a dog that can go from what seems like happy/neutral to a full on, flesh ripping bite. As tippykayak said, it is much better to try to treat the underlying cause.

I think you have made a great decision TM, and applaud you for it. I hope you will be happy with whoever you end up seeing.


----------



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

No problem Katie, I got my answers so I am good!


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

solinvictus;1685192
At this point imo what it comes down to is ...
TM has to decide if she has confidence in her trainer and the program set out for her. If she does then she needs to contact her trainer with all of her questions and with any new behaviors that Tucker may be doing during the program and see if the plan is going in the right direction or if it needs tweeked.
If she is uncomfortable with her trainer or the plan and after a discussion with the trainer still doesn't feel comfortable she needs to move on to someone that is a better fit for her and Tucker.
[B said:


> *The problem arises if TM starts mixing in training advice from the internet with the program the trainer has given. This can set back the trainers program and can confuse Tucker more.* [/B]
> 
> 
> 
> We need to be supportive of TM. She needs to gain confidence and lower her own stress levels and not see everything Tucker is doing is a plot against her.


Exactly! TM needs to focus _hands on_ first and foremost with her trainer. And stop second guessing herself. Confidence does sound like an issue IMHO. Alot of times it is not the dog but us as owners who need the training lol! Even if it takes a few _hands on_ trainers she can take techniques from both and that will help her become more confident and have a loving dog at the same time.


----------



## quilter (Sep 12, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> I've been taking lessons with a good OTCH trainer, and she really had a useful suggestion: when you do give a treat, make a moment out of it. Make sure there is true connectedness with the dog, pat her chest, say yes, give the gift of your full attention. I know you've taken Koda to puppy class, so your watch command is good for these moments. Increase the time she is happy to make peaceful, alert eye contact with you, and then reward her for Watch. If you cement the working relationship, the specific problems will get easier to address. Dogs default to doing what they practice most, so it is a lovely feeling when you have dogs who default to happily watching your face and wanting to work with you.


Loved this comment. Especially this part - "so it is a lovely feeling when you have dogs who default to happily watching your face and wanting to work with you." There have been moments in dog class, when Casper is looking at me peacefully and waiting for the next step. It is a connection which I can't quite describe. It is not him doing what I command, it is us working together to do something. A partnership.


----------

