# Changing to choke chain from prong collar



## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Have you done any attention work with her? If not, I would start there. Or simply have some high value treats on you and when you are getting near the people, before she starts to act silly, get them out and distract her. Have her sit and look at you or the food, and feed her for doing so, building up the time. If she's acting silly and goofy, do NOT let her get any attention from the people she's goofy over. Tell them that she's in training and no petting because she's not acting right.

You can get a friend or whoever, hire a babysitter to come and help and work on this. Have her sit, have the person approach, if she breaks, they walk away or veer off past her - no attention. Eventually she'll get the idea that she must sit and behave or she will not get that attention.

The pinch collar should fit loosely - so if there is no slack it is not pinching, but snug enough that if you pull on it it does tighten. And you should not let her 'tow' you with it, but give quick pops to get her attention.

Is there a trainer you can contact who can give you a few lessons and help?


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

If I were you I would check out taking a class. Lots of times a good instructor can see things you are doing that you don't realize. The classes are a lot of fun for both you and the dog.


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

I would also suggest attention training.

If you don't like the prong, have you ever tried a martingale collar? It works in the same way as a prong does, just no prongs.


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## Sienna's Mom (Oct 23, 2007)

A class is not always the best option as Sienna goes a little bonkers with all the dogs (nervous) or is so food obsessed that she goes over the top with all the energy in the room- we've tried a couple of times. We can't afford personal lessons.

I did like the prong collar as it reminded her to mellow out (albeit slightly) when it tightened up. I do not like that it is hurting her. That is why I was thinking about the choke chain. I have heard about the Martingale, but didn't want to buy a complete different collar if the choke chain would work for walks.

We do try to get her to sit before anyone pets her and she kinda knows, but I think at the bus stop she is so excited to see all the kids she is shaking with excitement. (Seriously, if my son leaves to walk to the stop before we are completely ready, you can tell she is like: "where is he going, are we going to miss out?, come on Mom, we have to leave!"

I will have to make a plan on taking treats to the bus stop and see what we can do in making her calm before anyone pets her.

I should probably return the choke chains and go to a real pet store and ask their advice.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

The problem with the prong collar (not counting the potential to increase dog arousal if she's corrected while "reacting" to the trigger) is that many dogs do learn to pull through it -- just enough to not really bug them. That drives me nuts.

I've put prongs on two dogs. Both coffee table Labs with GREAT personalities and zero issues with dogs/people. The first lesson involves me issuing usually one correction on the collar, max of two - before the dog realizes YIKES... if I feel the prongs, I'd better slow the heck down, not continue to pull b.c the prongs don't really bother me.

Never my first choice, but both people wouldn't use a head halter and no-pull harnesses didn't do anything. I would never advocate for a pinch or choke on a dog with dog arousal issues b/c I strongly believe corrections (even inadvertent) will make the behavior worse.

For you, I'd go back to the GL to give the physical control you need. BUT - the trick is that regardless of whatever devise you use, you still have to REWARD moments of loose leash in order to train that behavior. Otherwise, the tool just makes the dog manageable and many learn to pull through it.

Take her kibble on walks. Reward EVERY two steps where you walk w/ a "J" in the leash. Yes. EVERY TWO STEPS for now. Do that for three days. Then EVERY FOUR STEPS. Build up (SLOWLY) from there. You have to consciously reward the behavior you want, not just let the tool correct or manage what you don't want. And the reward has to be greater than the temptation to pull, which unfortunately, out in the world, the temptation to pull is VERY GREAT!

And I really think you'd get a lot out of one or two sessions with a GOOD trainer. (And a lot of good trainers I know continue to give free phone support once they've met and worked with a client.) I know money is tight. I feel ya there. Just start saving for it. We manage to save for all sorts of other things - birthdays, holidays, occasional dinners out. Just add Sierra's training to the list


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Did you have someone check out how you had the Gentle Leader fastened and did you watch the video on how to use it? I can't see how it could rub anything if properly used. Also, if properly used, the dog doesn't pull at all. My dog didn't like the GL (would lie down and not move at first) but once he was trained to it, accepted it and behaved beautifully when it was on. He still will lie on the grass and rub his face once it is taken off! You can go to the place that sells the GL and maybe get someone to help you with it? It really does stop pulling if used properly.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

My concern is that if she is 'pulling' on a prong then she will _most surely_ pull on a choke...and frankly that has much more potential for harm then a prong... 
If you are compelled to ditch the prong...then a martingale is a better choice...at least the pulling will be spread out a bit more...


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

super good advice from Stephanie as usual!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Just keep in mind the choke chain tightens, and continues to tighten, as long as she pulls, and it does exactly what the name says, it chokes. I don't think it will improve the walking at all. If you had success with the pinch collar get rubber tips for the tines.









But I would really recommend you try the Gentle Leader again, there is a dvd that comes with it that shows you how to fit it properly and how to get the dog used to wearing it. Lilah is still terrible about pulling with any collar I try, but she walks much better with the GL.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Also, for the GL, get some Dr. Scholl's moleskin or some fleece and fashion some padding for the nose strap. But - it really only rubs if she's being allowed to repeatedly pull through it, so once you add the training part, any "nose chafing" (where the hair is flattened or somewhat rubbed off by the nylon nose strap) should be eliminated.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

You could also make a cloth tube to slide onto the collar and the tines would not be directly touching her skin.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I didn't read the other posts yet, but I would not use a choke chain for the reasons you describe. I would not put a choke chain on a dog who will pull on it - particularly since I saw a strong necked dog break through her chain. And choke chains have a bad reputation for causing injuries to the trachea SPECIFICALLY because they are put on dogs who continue to pull against the chain.

Collars are not a replacement for training and a strong arm.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I think you need to find a very good trainer who has well-behaved dogs and seek their advice. Nothing like hands on help that can watch you vs. trying to get help online. JMO.

Also, I know class is tough because she gets wild, but that is exactly why it is a good idea to go. So that you can learn to train and work around it. Trust me, the more she goes the better she will get.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Have you considered doing a private or two before starting group class? That might help you be better prepared, more confident, and have a set of foundation behaviors to use before being in the group class environment. (Though of course, working through privates alone, esp if you can find someone to do in home, is a good option for some families).

The other thing to consider might be to check different facilities and see if there is one that better meets your needs. With my first dog (who was very wild!!) we did not do well in some group classes....if there were a lot of people in a small room, I didn't have enough space to safely work him. If we were in a larger room, barn, or outdoors, I could get far enough away to be successful and for him to respond. And once we could do that, we were able to gradually work closer to the other dogs. Even if you have to drive further, you would get more out of a class that is better set up for you and your dog.


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## LittleLouie (Feb 21, 2011)

When using different collars, I would HIGHLY SUGGEST seeing a trainer. In Louie's training, we showed up using the gentle leader. The trainer was like "Are you serious, get that garbage off his head!" It was so ineffective and never once stopped him from pulling. Once he slipped out of it, that's why we ended up in training.

The choke collar did wonders, but the pinch/prong collar had much more control. It is possible that maybe it isn't fitted right? Possibly a little tight and that's why it caused the irritation? I will not take Louie out without it now. I see people who have no control over their dogs, but I know mine will never drag me around or get loose, and I don't even have to tug ever.

If you are still having problems with pulling and tugging with the prong collar, then the dog isn't aware of it's purpose. Our trainer did what he calls "imprinting". It wasn't my best memory of training, but wasn't inhumane, and it only took fifteen minutes for Louie to understand that he can't behave aggressively when we go outside. Imprinting was basically how the trainer introduced the collar to the dog. Louie realized that if he didn't walk alongside me or sit or lay down when I told him to, then a tug of the leash would remind him. The first four months that we had Louie, I never imagined he would walk alongside me, but after I learned how to properly use the pinch collar and how to work with Louie, we can take walks anywhere and he won't pull to go investigate people or random things.


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## Our3dogs (Apr 3, 2008)

As suggested, perhaps find a different training facility. If she goes a little nutty during training classes, all the more reason to go to more. Many of the kennel clubs have training classes. As mentioned, if you are in too small of a building, etc. for the classes, it is hard to control the dog, and really work through the exercises. With our first 2 Goldens I think we went to PetCo or PetsMart, and these were the exact problems we encountered. With our current 2, I found a local kennel club that does training classes at local horse arenas with plenty of space to move about. Over the last 11-12 years with our current Goldens, even after they completed Beginner and Intermediate training classes, every so often I would go back to training classes with them. It proved as a helpful refresher for both of us. I have been fortunate enough to be able to go to the same training facility and work with the same trainer all these years. Good luck, it is always so rewarding when we can get to walk nicely - my shoulder appreciated it as well.


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

Tucker is a puller too. He only pulls when we are in motion. When we stop he stops pulling and will circle around me. We had the same issue with a prong collar. I felt horrible, never again. Tucker also rubbed a sore on the edge of his lip with the GL. We stopped using it for awhile, and have started back up with it in our beginning rally class.
Our issue is that Tucker is not very food oriented, so it is hard to reward him for when he does walk nicely. Definitely understand where you are with Sienna! 

I can tell you don't write off lessons just because Sienna gets excited around other dogs. You simply need to find the right instructor! We have had incredibly reactive dogs in our classes. Sometimes they start out 25 feet from the rest of the class, but they are there working. Week by week, they inch back into class. We went through a period with Tucker where he became reactive after greeting some dogs that he really should not have. We spent weeks on the fringe of class working next to good dogs. Week by week we edged ourselves back into class. A little bit different situation than you have with Sienna, but you get the idea. A good instructor, with a good group of dogs will work wonders.


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## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

I would not use a prong collar or a choke chain on a dog. in England both types are considered too harsh and are not allowed to be used on dogs in the majority of training schools. Is a simple buckle collar out of the question?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

aerolor said:


> I would not use a prong collar or a choke chain on a dog. in England both types are considered too harsh and are not allowed to be used on dogs in the majority of training schools. Is a simple buckle collar out of the question?


Any collar is harsh in the wrong hands. 

I would imagine the reason why prongs and choke chains are not permitted is because it is too easy for dogs to get injured because of inappropriate use of these collars. They are for training, not for regular every day use on a pulling dog.


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## Montana's Mommy (Mar 10, 2009)

I just started Levi in obedience class - I always used a prong - doesn't react to it and I don't want to hurt him. So new class does not allow any harsh correction. Levi is a nervous nelly arounf new places, dogs, ppl etc. First day of class he was pulling me so hard I was soooooo embarressed!! Trainer came over cuz she can she I was getting frustrated and but his leash in a half sinch (sp) around left leg, over chest and up through the remaining leash. It worked immediately!!! I even did it the other day when we were hiking and lots of horses and ppl on the trails and it worked again - no pulling!!! It's a start till they learn not to pull - and trainer also said lots of priase and treats (tiny ones). Good Luck


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> *So new class does not allow any harsh correction*. Levi is a nervous nelly arounf new places, dogs, ppl etc. First day of class he was pulling me so hard I was soooooo embarressed!! Trainer came over cuz she can she I was getting frustrated and but his leash in a half sinch (sp) around left leg, over chest and up through the remaining leash. It worked immediately!!!


I'm not trying to be a brat here and I'm glad you have found a way to stop the pulling -

But tying up your dog's leg with the leash is still a harsh correction in my book, and could cause injuries just the same as a correction around the neck.


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## Sienna's Mom (Oct 23, 2007)

We've had to go back to the prong collar, though I'm not happy about it. She was actually choking herself more on the Sensible Leader. Since she pulls so much and it goes across the chest, she kept coughing like she was choking because she was pulling the strap across her chest.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Sienna's Mom said:


> We've had to go back to the prong collar, though I'm not happy about it. She was actually choking herself more on the Sensible Leader. Since she pulls so much and it goes across the chest, she kept coughing like she was choking because she was pulling the strap across her chest.


Have you tried a head halter rather than a front clip harness?

What have you worked on as a training exercise to not pull in the first place?


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## Sienna's Mom (Oct 23, 2007)

She rubbed the fur off her nose with the head halter.

I have tried the short tugs when she is pulling and she stops, but goes right back to it after just a bit. I plan on working more intensely with it this summer as enough is enough. This year has been a bit stressful and have not given her the time she needs. I intend to change that. Her time is also me time.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I've always found it really, really hard to correct a dog out of pulling. For me, pitting a negative correction against a self-reinforcing behavior has always felt like pushing a boulder uphill. It can work, but it's not rewarding to me, and I find it hard to calibrate my corrections as I get more frustrated. I also felt that when I was finally successful, the dog seemed sort of sad and dutiful about leash walking.

I vastly, vastly prefer teaching an alternate behavior positively. It doesn't take any longer (in my personal experience), and I get much less frustrated as I go. Instead of thinking of it as teaching my dogs not to pull (creating the association that pull=bad), I've started to think of it as teaching my dogs two things: to offer me a slack leash, and to give me their full attention when I say their names (slack leash=good, looking up when you name is said=fun). The dogs I've trained this way seem much more enthusiastic and prancy when they're on the leash. It becomes a game to see if they can get loose leash exactly right for some positive attention (they're 100% off treats for leash walking since it's not practical for me to use food rewards in most leash situations).

I do that by rewarding the slack leash when it naturally happens and by creatively creating situations in which the slack leash happens more often (walking backwards, moving sideways, etc.). It's also important to remove as much of the self-reinforcing characteristics of the pulling as possible. That's mostly accomplished by standing stock still with the pulling dog until he settles and only moving forward when the leash is slack. That makes you look a bit insane, but it works.

I did train a dog who absolutely throttled himself on the end of the leash, so you couldn't wait him out. He was also really low on food motivation. He was very motivated by attention from people, though, so my trainer helped me solve that problem by doing a walking backwards and sideways technique that's a bit hard to describe. Essentially, we kept him guessing about where we were going and made it a super-fun game. That motivated him strongly in a way food couldn't and created those opportunities to reinforce the desired behavior.

Anyway, I'm mostly posting to suggest that it might help to change your mindset and try to train a new behavior (offering loose leash) and make it a two-pronged attack (use the prong to prevent her from self-reinforcing if she'll hurt herself on a flat collar, and use positives to train the alternate behavior).


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> It can work, but it's not rewarding to me, and I find it hard to calibrate my corrections as I get more frustrated. I also felt that when I was finally successful, the dog seemed sort of sad and dutiful about leash walking.


If you use corrections alone without adding in the games and alternative methods of handling. 

One thing I was thinking about that I've used with Jacks that probably wouldn't work with every single dog, but it does work fairly well to break up the bad behavior with a soft dog. 

*He would pull, and I would let go of the leash and I'd go running off in the opposite direction. 

*He would walk next to me, and I would consistently praise him and stop a few times to give him a "what a good boy you are + back/side rub" session. 

*He would pull, and I would pop that leash and PARTY when he immediately responded and came back to me. 

*He would walk nice, and I stop progress to give him a little play session.

*If I had somebody walking with me and he pulled, I generally snuck the leash over to my walking buddy, and would hide behind a bush or tree and see how long it took for him to figure out I was missing. <- This definitely caused my guy to keep an eye on me during walks. 

So in general he doesn't pull. 

When he's dealing with his phobias and is lockset intent on getting home, then he does pull, and that's when I stop every ten steps to pay attention to him and get his focus back on me and the direct radius around us. 

Or I weave and twist and turn the whole way home = once again, getting him to relax and getting his mind off of his fears. 

Last summer, when my guy was getting trained past his phobias... I did use a prong to get him out of the yard and far enough away from our yard for him to settle down and enjoy our walks. Which point I removed the prong and only walked him on his regular collar. He will not pull or brace against the prong, so that is why I used it to push him past his fears. But I would not walk a pulling dog on a prong, especially a fitted one (I used a kind that releases when not being used for a correction), and I would want to switch back to a regular collar as soon as possible.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Might even be worth going right back to the very beginning and start in with proofing her attention work...can she/will she keep her eyes on you with balls rolling around....a child running by....food being dropped on the ground around her etc..etc.... If that solid foundation is in place...walking on a leash becomes much easier..


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> If you use corrections alone without adding in the games and alternative methods of handling.


True. Corrections can create the space to get the desired behavior and reinforce it. Personally, I find it more rewarding to try to get away from the corrective mindset as much as possible, only using them if there's no other way to get a break in the undesired behavior. I'd much prefer to prevent or redirect what I don't want than correct it.

The dutiful dog I'm thinking of was trained through leash pops on a flat collar when he pulled and praise when he gave loose leash. He was such an exuberant worker in other contexts where corrections weren't a primary teaching tool (leash skills are my least developed training skills, I'd say) that I always felt a bit sad that I hadn't made the leash skills more rewarding for him. It wasn't like he acted like a beat dog or anything. He just had less spring in his step than when he did any other trained behavior.

Like I said, I learned that I didn't have to make pulling unpleasant if I could teach the dog what I wanted instead.


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## Sienna's Mom (Oct 23, 2007)

Spoke to someone at the local independent pet supply. I told them what we were going through with Sienna's pulling and what the prong was doing to her neck. They recommended the Sporn Halter. It wraps around under the dogs forelegs.

We tried it today for the first time. Sienna still pulled slightly, but I must say it was a much better experience walking her. It did not pull across her chest... she was not wheezing from pulling so hard the prong was cutting into her neck. The leash was not loose, but I did try to give her little tugs of correction, but not often.

I haven't used it around kids at the bus stop yet, but I am hopeful!

www.sporn.com - Sporn Halter
The Sporn Company


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## LincolnsMom (Sep 28, 2010)

Sienna's Mom said:


> Spoke to someone at the local independent pet supply. I told them what we were going through with Sienna's pulling and what the prong was doing to her neck. They recommended the Sporn Halter. It wraps around under the dogs forelegs.
> 
> We tried it today for the first time. Sienna still pulled slightly, but I must say it was a much better experience walking her. It did not pull across her chest... she was not wheezing from pulling so hard the prong was cutting into her neck. The leash was not loose, but I did try to give her little tugs of correction, but not often.
> 
> ...


I can't believe that the haltie didn't work it was a miracle for me Lincoln gets sooo hyper that when he sees people that he pulled me into the street for us the haltie worked i'm bummed it won't work for you.

My advice tho -sorry if i'm repeating- when he did just stupid hyper I would turn around and walk the other way from what he wanted or why he was pulling to the second he started pulling other way again. No food of rewards unless we were able to get a determined amount of distance then small reward so he wouldn't get to hyper but knew I was happy. Then if he did well I would take him somewhere and let him run free -no idea if he new it was because he had been good but it made me feel better lmao

Anyways just sharing what I did hopfully the new contraption ;p will work for you each dog has something that will


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

I am an old grandma with bad knees and cannot have a dog pull. I swear by the Gentle Leader. I know you said she didn't like it and tried to rub it off, but if you watch the DVD it will help. I began by putting it on for just a second, just slipped on the clipped and game a treat. Did this many times. Then I would put it on and feed him his meals with it on. Then took it off. Did this for a week or so before we actually went walking. Worked well with my dogs and we go to the bus stop every school morning and wait for the school bus with a well behaved dog.


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## LincolnsMom (Sep 28, 2010)

Sienna's Mom said:


> Spoke to someone at the local independent pet supply. I told them what we were going through with Sienna's pulling and what the prong was doing to her neck. They recommended the Sporn Halter. It wraps around under the dogs forelegs.
> 
> We tried it today for the first time. Sienna still pulled slightly, but I must say it was a much better experience walking her. It did not pull across her chest... she was not wheezing from pulling so hard the prong was cutting into her neck. The leash was not loose, but I did try to give her little tugs of correction, but not often.
> 
> ...



Kay so I watched the video on the link you provided I'm seriously considering buying once. I love linc's haltie but I hate the way it looks this would be a great alternative! Please keep us updated on her progress and if it really works or not!


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## johnnycee (Nov 9, 2011)

I've heard that the prong collar is actually more benign than the choke. They've done studies that supposedly prove this.


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