# Novice Agility Question



## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

Yup. In novice you just have to do all 6 poles to get credit for them. You can restart them at any point or re-do them from the beginning as many times as you want.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

thanks! I assume you still have to stay under the course time, right?




kgiff said:


> Yup. In novice you just have to do all 6 poles to get credit for them. You can restart them at any point or re-do them from the beginning as many times as you want.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Yes - so every attempt at the weaves costs you time...you have more time in novice and overtime seconds "cost" less in Novice - you have to know your dog - even very experienced (yet trial green) dogs will miss weave entries - you have to know your dog as to how many times you bring him (or her) back at the entry before you've demotivated them entirely. So as a general rule (my advice to newbies) is that if you have a dog that doesn't mind being wrong go ahead and take two additional bites at the poles - if you aren't sucessful then you're probably cooked on time anyway and you've probably crossed into demotivation in the ring anyway...and if that continues to happen you probably aren't ready to be trialing that dog. 

The other thing, is that in other venues - such as NADAC refusals aren't judged either (on any obstacle) but you cannot simply put the dog in where they popped out - you have to do the complete weaves. It's not easy with a fast dog to know where they came out. I would never advise putting the dog back in - it's not what I train for and I'd rather NQ than accept something now that will bite us later (like in excellent).

Erica


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks, that makes sense to me. 
Tito never minds being wrong in agility. I can't see him being demotivated no matter what (in agility only!). He LOVES the weaves and will often decide to do them on his own (for ex., when he's supposed to be doing a series of jumps :doh. 
I've always said I'd NEVER trial him in agility, we just do it for fun. But.....



MurphyTeller said:


> Yes - so every attempt at the weaves costs you time...you have more time in novice and overtime seconds "cost" less in Novice - you have to know your dog - even very experienced (yet trial green) dogs will miss weave entries - you have to know your dog as to how many times you bring him (or her) back at the entry before you've demotivated them entirely. So as a general rule (my advice to newbies) is that if you have a dog that doesn't mind being wrong go ahead and take two additional bites at the poles - if you aren't sucessful then you're probably cooked on time anyway and you've probably crossed into demotivation in the ring anyway...and if that continues to happen you probably aren't ready to be trialing that dog.
> 
> The other thing, is that in other venues - such as NADAC refusals aren't judged either (on any obstacle) but you cannot simply put the dog in where they popped out - you have to do the complete weaves. It's not easy with a fast dog to know where they came out. I would never advise putting the dog back in - it's not what I train for and I'd rather NQ than accept something now that will bite us later (like in excellent).
> 
> Erica


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Ha, I never knew that! I guess you learn something new everyday!! So then in Open...what happens then? And I know then in Excellent that you have to have NO MISTAKES in order to QUALIFY! And then placings will come as your qualifying time allows.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

MaddieMagoo said:


> Ha, I never knew that! I guess you learn something new everyday!! So then in Open...what happens then? And I know then in Excellent that you have to have NO MISTAKES in order to QUALIFY! And then placings will come as your qualifying time allows.


In Excellent A you can have time faults - but not many  In Excellent B no time faults and no mistakes. 

In Novice qualifying is 85 (Q'ing in open is also 85) - refusals, Wrong courses and Table faults cost you five points. You can have two refusals and a wrong course, or two wrongs and a table...but you can't have three refusals. In Novice over course time costs you a point each second...

In open you can have one of each (but that second refusal (or wrong course) will take you out). In Open overtime costs you two points a second.

Of course you can't have a wrong course (and qualify) in JWW and a knocked bar or missed contact is always NQ'ing.

Lots and lots of people - particularly newbies - or relatively newbies (in my observation) get out of novice and then use their one refusal on the weaves in open...muddle through open, then get into excellent and sort of stagnate. There are people in Ex A that have been there for a couple of seasons now after going 6 for 6 in Nov/Open to get there...

I highly suggest downloading the AKC Agility regs and reading them - they are boring - but there are little jewels of information you'll be glad you know...Like how the jump heights are your responsibility. If you walk into the ring and the bars (or a bar) are set to 20" but you have a 24" dog the rules are very clear - it's on you to check before you run - if you Q'ed you will not get that leg and you do not get a do-over...

Erica


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

yes, like the little gem that run outs and refusals don't count on weave poles in novice 



MurphyTeller said:


> I highly suggest downloading the AKC Agility regs and reading them - they are boring - but there are little jewels of information you'll be glad you know...Like how the jump heights are your responsibility. If you walk into the ring and the bars (or a bar) are set to 20" but you have a 24" dog the rules are very clear - it's on you to check before you run - if you Q'ed you will not get that leg and you do not get a do-over...
> 
> Erica


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> yes, like the little gem that run outs and refusals don't count on weave poles in novice


Right...BUT....Wrong courses count on the weave poles - so if next obstacle is the weaves and the dog runs by the weaves and puts a foot in the tunnel - that's a wrong course....

The thing that can get people is back weaving - that is judged. SO...if fluffy pops out at pole four and as handler is bringing her back to start again she back-weaves that will cost you a wrong course. Backweaving will always cost you points (NADAC, CPE, USDAA, AKC) if not cost you a Q - so watch for it and manage it in training too.

One of the reasons that it's important to practice moving around a course - just walking around off leash - and getting the dog past the stage where they take every obstacle they walk by (for some dogs this is a problem)...It's great to build up a reinforcement history and excitement for the obstacles - but they aren't allowed to self-reinforce - but that's my policy for ANYTHING in my dogs' world... 

Erica


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

SHEEESH so much to know. Sounds to me like I should just run the course and then ask someone if he Q'd or not!!!!!




MurphyTeller said:


> Right...BUT....Wrong courses count on the weave poles - so if next obstacle is the weaves and the dog runs by the weaves and puts a foot in the tunnel - that's a wrong course....
> 
> The thing that can get people is back weaving - that is judged. SO...if fluffy pops out at pole four and as handler is bringing her back to start again she back-weaves that will cost you a wrong course. Backweaving will always cost you points (NADAC, CPE, USDAA, AKC) if not cost you a Q - so watch for it and manage it in training too.
> 
> ...


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> SHEEESH so much to know. Sounds to me like I should just run the course and then ask someone if he Q'd or not!!!!!


That's one way to do it - but knowing where you stand could change your decisions on course...but then again I'm NUTSO about rules. If I'm going to play a game I need to know all the rules...

Erica


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> SHEEESH so much to know. Sounds to me like I should just run the course and then ask someone if he Q'd or not!!!!!


Been there, done that, still do that on occasion. And then even once you learn the rules, there are in consistencies between judges. 

There are certain people if I sit near I know I'm going to get a better understanding of the rules and nearly every time I time, asst. scribe, or scribe something happens that I don't quite understand why and I ask the people I'm working with -- it's always great when you end up working with a judge. And rules differ from venue to venue -- a refusal in USDAA isn't the same as it is in AKC at all levels. 

If you don't understand why something was called a certain way, ask. But go out, have fun


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, as much as I'd like to know the rules in advance so I know what I can and can't do, I'm sure there are a bunch of little nuances that I'll never quite figure out.
For example....on the drop on recall in open obedience, if the dog instantly drops, rolls onto his back with all 4 feet in the air, then comes immediately when called the second time, is that an NQ??? (luckily that was in training, not in a trial....)
If the dog goes over the high jump while doing the figure 8 off leash (again in open) because the figure 8 was set up WAY too close to the high jump, but immediately returns to heel position, is that an NQ? (saw a dog do this, wasn't Tito)
Sooo much to learn.....

uote=kgiff;822378]Been there, done that, still do that on occasion. And then even once you learn the rules, there are in consistencies between judges. 

There are certain people if I sit near I know I'm going to get a better understanding of the rules and nearly every time I time, asst. scribe, or scribe something happens that I don't quite understand why and I ask the people I'm working with -- it's always great when you end up working with a judge. And rules differ from venue to venue -- a refusal in USDAA isn't the same as it is in AKC at all levels. 

If you don't understand why something was called a certain way, ask. But go out, have fun [/quote]


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

The jump from novice to open is a big leap. I think the weaves are the biggest issue too, and for me it was the "handlers" problem. In novice, I would tell Belle to go weave, she would hunt the entry and nail them, but there was no pressure, if she missed we did them over. She never missed. In open OMG SHE HAS TO DO TWELVE AND SHE IS ALLOWED ONLY ONE MISTAKE ON COURSE!!!! Too much for me to handle. We had so many weave errors. Finally my trainer was at an event and watched and said to me "why are you over handling the weaves?" "What is the worst that can happen?" As soon as I got that through my head, I took the pressure off Belle and she nails her weaves. 

I now work on giving her a lot of room. Allowing me to work some distance too. She is excellent B now, and she is running better as a B dog than she did in open or A. Probably my mind set more than anything. I just hope the corgi I run stays in open a LONG time, she is a long way off from being able to handle the pressure of an excellent course. We practice excellent in class, and at fun matches. She stresses so badly at trials, I want her to over come that in open, otherwise I don't think she ever will.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

One more thing on knowing whether or not you Q. I ran a trial once Belle ran GREAT everyone who saw the run, said she was perfect.... Except the judge. It was manually scored, and entered and by the time it was posted Belle got an "F". To this day I do not know why, I couldn't ask the judge as she was working the next class already. You win some you lose some.

Another trial I thought Belle did great, all the spectators thought she did great but she got an NQ. We watched the video tape, (the judges hands went up at the weaves). The tape was not clear. I asked the judge and she said Belle popped the last weave. I can't say for sure yes or no, because I had looked ahead to the next obstacle, I can see my eye movement causing her to pop. It happens. 

It is objective to a degree, and subjective to what the judge thinks they see. I did see a judge NQ a dog, then take it off at the end of the run. The NQ was a marginal call the dog made no other mistake. That was a good thing that judge did.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Yes, as much as I'd like to know the rules in advance so I know what I can and can't do, I'm sure there are a bunch of little nuances that I'll never quite figure out.
> For example....on the drop on recall in open obedience, if the dog instantly drops, rolls onto his back with all 4 feet in the air, then comes immediately when called the second time, is that an NQ??? (luckily that was in training, not in a trial....)
> If the dog goes over the high jump while doing the figure 8 off leash (again in open) because the figure 8 was set up WAY too close to the high jump, but immediately returns to heel position, is that an NQ? (saw a dog do this, wasn't Tito)
> Sooo much to learn.....


There's a lot less grey areas in agility than in obedience...a contact is pretty much a contact for every judge - a down on the table is a down on the table...the dog either took the obstacles in the correct order or he didn't...there isn't a "is that 50% plus one" factor - or "was that a -.5 sit or a -1 sit"...

Erica


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> Yes, as much as I'd like to know the rules in advance so I know what I can and can't do, I'm sure there are a bunch of little nuances that I'll never quite figure out.
> For example....on the drop on recall in open obedience, if the dog instantly drops, rolls onto his back with all 4 feet in the air, then comes immediately when called the second time, is that an NQ??? (luckily that was in training, not in a trial....)
> If the dog goes over the high jump while doing the figure 8 off leash (again in open) because the figure 8 was set up WAY too close to the high jump, but immediately returns to heel position, is that an NQ? (saw a dog do this, wasn't Tito)
> Sooo much to learn.....


I think a lot of those might depend on the judge. Here's what I'd expect:

The DOR one -- I think that would qualify with a 3pt deduction.

Taking the jump on heeling -- I think maybe in Open A that would qualify with a 3pt deduction, but not in Open B... and not in either under a "difficult" judge. Just my "guess" based on what I've seen here locally. It's tough 'cuz dogs can come up with a lot of "creative" ways of doing the exercises that aren't included in the rules on judging!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, I think both are open to interpretation....the DOR was in training, my trainer is a judge, he said he would not have taken points off in Open A for the DOR because no where does it say HOW the dog has to do a down, and the drop/recall were both immediate. Just his opinion.
In the taking the jump of heeling, it was in fact a 3 point deduction, and it was Open A. The dog "veered off path" but immediately returned. The fact that there was a jump there was immaterial to the point deduction. Just THAT judge's opinion!




FlyingQuizini said:


> I think a lot of those might depend on the judge. Here's what I'd expect:
> 
> The DOR one -- I think that would qualify with a 3pt deduction.
> 
> Taking the jump on heeling -- I think maybe in Open A that would qualify with a 3pt deduction, but not in Open B... and not in either under a "difficult" judge. Just my "guess" based on what I've seen here locally. It's tough 'cuz dogs can come up with a lot of "creative" ways of doing the exercises that aren't included in the rules on judging!


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