# "English" Golden retriever pedigree questions



## Millie'sMom

You could try Goldnote Goldens, north of Toronto, Canada British English Type Golden Retriever | American Retriever Puppies 

or Kyon Kennels, in Ontario Canada
Golden Retriever Puppies | Ontario | Kyon Kennels

I believe there is a forum member who recently picked up his puppy from goldnotes, and he lives in the states, not sure where. And I think there are a few members with Kyon dogs as well. I don't know either breeder personally only by reputation and seeing some of their dogs. 

Good luck in your search for a puppy.


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## TheZ's

Hopefully some of the members in the UK will comment but it's my understanding that putting a championship on a dog in England is a more difficult process than it is in the US with the result that there are proportionately fewer English champions.


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## swishywagga

Hi there from Barnaby an English golden. In general I think there are alot more rules and regulations with regard to breeding and showing. When we got Barn 12 years ago we had to sign documents saying we would NOT breed or show him. This was a shame as he is from the Cinmarsh lineage and is the grandson and son of world champions. Wherever they are from they are all perfect. Hugs to all.


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## Shalva

it is much more difficult to put a UK Show Championship on a dog than in the US. In the US the unfinished dogs (those without a championship) only have to beat other dogs who don't have championships to get points toward their championship. In the UK the dog has to also compete against the specials (the dogs with championships) this makes finishing a dog much more difficult. I am sure some of the UK folks will chime in a bit more if you need more information. 

In the US if you have "English" style dogs, the way the US standard is written and applied makes it very difficult to finish those dogs in the AKC... The Canadian standard generally accepts the style a bit more depending on where you are with the East Coast of Canada being more accepting than the West. This means that for those of us in the Northern States, going to Canada to get a championship is much more doable than for those who live in the middle or southern states. 

I hope this helps


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## Shalva

swishywagga said:


> Hi there from Barnaby an English golden. In general I think there are alot more rules and regulations with regard to breeding and showing. When we got Barn 12 years ago we had to sign documents saying we would NOT breed or show him. This was a shame as he is from the Cinmarsh lineage and is the grandson and son of world champions. Wherever they are from they are all perfect. Hugs to all.


Reputable breeders make puppy people sign similar documents here as well. Regardless of a pedigree and what the lineage is, in any litter there are only a couple of dogs that are show quality regardless of how wonderful the pedigree is. Your breeder obviously determined that Barnaby was a dog who she considered a pet puppy for whatever reason... it doesn't mean that he is not beautiful but just that he was not a show dog for whatever reason. It is the sign of a responsible breeder.


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## annef

To make a dog a show champion in the UK they have to win 3 best of sex at a championship show(challenge certificate). They have to win their class and then all winners of the classes compete for the best dog/ bitch Challenge certificate. All dogs compete for the CC including dogs that are champions It is not uncommon to have several champions competing and some people try to win as many CC's as possible. Our entries have dropped recently to about 200 overall but when my dog won BOB at Crufts he beat over 500 goldens to win his first CC Annef


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## SheetsSM

Any clue how championships work in the rest of Europe seeing as how, the "English Cream" fad is backed by dogs from Eastern Europe as opposed to England?


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## annef

With regard to putting breeding restrictions on many breeders now do this as well as the restriction that the dog is not allowed to be issued with an export pedigree. This is to stop people buying puppies and then selling them on overseas. Most breeders will lift a breeding restriction if their criteria has been met, in my case a below average hip score, elbow score of 1 or less and a current eye certificate and approval of the stud dog or bitch coming to a stud dog. Hope this info helps. Annef


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## annef

Champion certs are much easier to win in Europe as they have a champions class which means that once a dog has won its title (CAC's)it competes in the champions class and dogs that have not won a CAC do not compete against champions Annef


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## Claudia M

Believe it or not competition in Europe is more stringent than in the US. That stands for Eastern Europe and even more so as the people who actually own dogs and show dogs are more rare than in the West. There are not as many trainers therefore the money that you put in the dog is even higher then here. 

Here you will see that the so called bad Eastern Europeans are involved in the European Shows. 



 Note that one of the judges is from Romania. The Euro dog show this year took place also in Romania. 




Many people here do not realize the actual sacrifice people in Eastern Europe do make to raise those wonderful furry friends.


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## SheetsSM

Claudia M said:


> Many people here do not realize the actual sacrifice people in Eastern Europe do make to raise those wonderful furry friends.


Which makes me wonder if they sacrifice so much then why in the world would they repeatedly allow their dogs to be shipped to the US and end up in kennels like White Dove, Cynazar & every other high volume & BYB breeder looking to cash in on the "cream" fad.


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## annef

There are reputable breeders in Eastern Europe, some of which are personal friends and they do care for their dogs. Like everywhere there are people who breed only for money Annef


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## Claudia M

You are going to have good breeders and bad breeders everywhere. Just like on this forum we have nice people and sarcastic ones. 
Frankly I am quite happy that Rose's great grandfather is from Romania. I have a copy of his Certified Export Pedigree (with roots in Germany, Russia and England) along with all the other papers and a furry baby in my house that everytime we look at her we tell ourselves that there is no way we could have found a better dog. There is such a wonderful combination of spike, stubbornness and eagerness to please in her - she is just amazing.

Also what you have to keep in mind is that sometimes they also get cheated by the breeders with nice websites etc in the US who promise the land and the moon to their beloved dog's offspring. Just like the people in the US get cheated by the same websites. 

To me cream is not a fad, it is simply a color and stature preference. I personally like either the very dark golden or the very light golden. Both of which would not be accepted in the US conformation shows.


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## SheetsSM

annef said:


> There are reputable breeders in Eastern Europe, some of which are personal friends and they do care for their dogs. Like everywhere there are people who breed only for money Annef


It's just sad when there are so many bad ones capitalizing on the demand in the US for light colored pups, touting that the dogs come from "champion" lines. This is why I was curious on how easy it was to obtain a championship cause I can't imagine the good breeders repeatedly sending dogs to the likes of Cynazar & White Doves of the world nor to those BYBs looking only to produce puppies without purpose or thought behind the breedings.


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## annef

Sometimes it can be easy for people to be taken in by the promise of a good home, acres of land and care of the dog. People don't always tell the truth! I was horrified to find some of my breeding behind some of the worst kennels and for that reason I now only export to close friends and they have to sign to say that no puppies will ever be exported to the US. I know that reading these messages there are many lovely homes in the US where the dogs have a wonderful life but I won't take the risk of any of my dogs ending up in these commercial kennels Annef


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## SheetsSM

Claudia M said:


> Frankly I am quite happy that Rose's great grandfather is from Romania.


And unfortunately, he's being bred repeatedly by Silvermine kennels--no clearances listed on OFA. It's sad.


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## annef

Some may have clearances abroad if they have been exported as adults, there is a database for clearances for Scandinavia but none in Europe as far as I know. In the UK every result is published so we can access all data before breeding Annef


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## Claudia M

I have all the papers that came with him from Romania and I would have another of his pups any day, any time.


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## Claudia M

AnneF - SheetsSM has been attacking my vets and my vets' specialists that my DH has used for over 30 years on all his previous goldens in a previous thread. 

I have looked at silvermine kennels and at first look it seems like a nice facility with happy customers - the one with the child with leg braces brought puddles of tears, and passed all the AKC inspections completely (I do wonder why they were inspected every three years it seems - is that normal?). They do seem to have mostly imported dogs from Russia and Spain.
LOL - I might consider giving them a call!


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## Megora

I think Silvermine has a clause which basically threatened puppy buyers with a lawsuit if they post any criticism of the business. 

Why the heck would you consider calling a business like that in the interest of buying one of their products? Which honestly, with these big commercial kennels, that's all their dogs are to them.


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## Tioy

In Sweden we have the SKK (Swedish Kennel Club). All serious and quality stamped breeders and their current litters can be found through the website. The breeders are guaranteed to follow the rules and regulations for breeding ( for healthy dogs and according to the dog race standard). Also we have a database called rasdata. There you can see all the litters and ancestors of a specific dog/breeder also the results of all the test ( e.g. Elbow, hips, eyes etc). 



Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Claudia M

Megora said:


> I think Silvermine has a clause which basically threatened puppy buyers with a lawsuit if they post any criticism of the business.
> 
> Why the heck would you consider calling a business like that in the interest of buying one of their products? Which honestly, with these big commercial kennels, that's all their dogs are to them.


I haven't seen anything like that in their website. Plus I rather actually talk to a person instead of making judgments and assumptions on what I think and find out for sure. Based on the website I can't tell really what kind of owners they are. They are pretty far from me anyway so I doubt I will really go there and look at their puppies. But if they are nice and open they wouldn't mind talking.  Even a phone call would not actually determine what kind of people they are. 
Unfortunately in the US world, lawsuits, complaints and defamation of character is quite predominant - sometimes without actual knowledge, just based on assumptions.


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## SheetsSM

Claudia M said:


> AnneF - SheetsSM has been attacking my vets and my vets' specialists that my DH has used for over 30 years on all his previous goldens in a previous thread.


Attacking? Seriously? You purchased a pup from a friend who you couldn't wait for her golden to have pups--well she did and what she was a mere 8 mos old when she was bred? You felt bad the breeder kept the dogs outdoors. You also stated you felt like you "rescued" Rose as you were afraid someone was going to purchase her to breed her and then not a second later, you stated you wanted Rose to have a litter. When clearances were mentioned, you stated you would rely only on your vet to judge whether or not Rose would be healthy enough to be bred, there was no mention of specialists until much, much later which is when I'm guessing you took the time to learn about clearances. 

Sorry that you feel I attacked your vet, but I think it's crazy & unfair to the breed to be so haphazard with breeding practices.


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## Megora

Read the contract.

There are better "english style" breeders in the US who actually set the bar higher when it comes to what they breed, how often they breed, and how they select homes for their puppies. There are definitely 2-3 breeders in the US who I think have beautiful dogs. I think I said before that somebody I church with recently contacted a very good breeder from the UK and was directed to purchase from a breeder in Ontario. The breeder essentially said that there were very few breeders who sold the "english style" in the US that she could recommend. 

With Jacks breeder - I decided to go elsewhere for our next puppy because they've gone fully into the English style. And the sad thing is the goldens they are breeding are not really that great to look at. And I think that is the case with a lot of these commercial kennels, is that they know that the consumers are looking for a color and a style, and don't really have much to compare to. 

With American style goldens - there is a DEFINITE comparision that we can see from the backyard bred or poor quality goldens and what is in the rings. There isn't the same visual guide available for a lot of average joes who just want "white goldens". 

I had to laugh (after, I was very discreet at the time) when I was at a petstore last week with both my guys and the lady at the counter was enthusing about how goldens get along with all breeds. And she referred to her brother's "english irish cream retriever" repeatedly, described it as a big white dog with a thick white coat or something like that. And her brother's golden retriever just got along wonderfully with this english irish cream retriever.  

I think those commercial breeders - like the silvermines and white doves and whoever whatever else... they can sell poor quality goldens for higher prices because most people don't really know better.


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## Claudia M

Once again SheetsSM - you jump to conclusions and once again I mentioned my vets' specialists. I have asked many other members of this forum and they all understood that my vet refers me to the specialists that can process all the clearances. 
As of today you will be blocked from my view and I shall never have the headache to read your comments. You are making assumptions and quite frankly I am getting the feeling that you are trying to stalk me.


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## SheetsSM

annef said:


> Some may have clearances abroad if they have been exported as adults, there is a database for clearances for Scandinavia but none in Europe as far as I know. In the UK every result is published so we can access all data before breeding Annef


In the case of this particular dog, the oldest litter he sired as recorded in K9data was whelped when he was 1 yr and a couple of days so I'm guessing there are no clearances.


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## Claudia M

Megora, this is the very first time we actually owned a so called english/european irish cream retriever or whatever others are calling it.  The reason we went this way was because I decided that I did not want the next puppy in the house to look anything like the ones before. I wanted her to be her and not compared to any previous pup. 
Honestly, I am in love with her and her temperament. I could not have asked/chosen for a better one. I got all the papers available from the breeder before birth and then since I speak Romanian among other languages I also contacted the GGF breeder and got papers emailed to me from there. 
As far as the kennel in discussion - I went and read the contract - I am assuming that any breeder, including the ones on this forum would prefer their name not slandered on the web. I am assuming they would prefer that the concerned buyer would actually contact them first with any concerns. 
What concerns me more than the slander/defamation of character issue is the fact they ask for a $500 non refundable fee. IMHO that means they do not know the people they sell the puppies to. I have seen arguments on this forum for that so called non-refundable fee but I just don't buy it. If you create a relationship with the breeder way ahead of time there should be no pretense of deception.


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## Claudia M

BTW Megora - your always loved, never forgotten boy - with the back in the signature - is absolutely beautiful. I hope to have time tomorrow if I get over this flu to take Belle's pic and scan it - the coloring is almost the same.


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## CarolinaCasey

Please keep comments to the topic at hand. There is room for disagreement but do it politely. In my opinion, Sheetz and Megora are spot on in regard to Silvermjne. I wouldn't wish a puppy of theirs in my worst enemy ( if I had one! ) Please do a search on the forum about them.


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## Claudia M

CarolinaCasey said:


> Please keep comments to the topic at hand. There is room for disagreement but do it politely. In my opinion, Sheetz and Megora are spot on in regard to Silvermjne. I wouldn't wish a puppy of theirs in my worst enemy ( if I had one! ) Please do a search on the forum about them.


That may very well be true; I do not know as I have never had any dealings with this breeder nor have I inquired about any puppy from them. I personally would not make a judgement based on hear-say from anonymous individuals. 

We obtained one puppy without meeting and developing a relationship with the breeder and poor thing had seizures from age 4 to his death at age 13. Will never do that again. 

However the slander and attempted stalking (even if not successful) to my knowledge are not permitted on this forum.


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## HiTideGoldens

Claudia M said:


> However the slander and attempted stalking (even if not successful) to my knowledge are not permitted on this forum.


I would be careful about lobbing serious accusations at other forum members. I do not see any evidence of stalking in this thread. The information that has been mentioned in this thread was posted in the forum some time ago, I actually remember it so it doesn't surprise me that someone else would too. I would suggest that in the future, if you don't want something made public do not post it on the internet. 

And I also second CarolinaCasey's request to keep the thread on topic or it will be closed.


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## Naples6020

Go on the website Dog Breeder Complaint board. You can type breeders name in and see what people had to say about them. I did this before I purchased my puppy. 2 of the breeders I contacted had complaints about them so,I steered clear!!!
http://www.complaintsboard.com/bysubcategory/dog-breeders.html At the top type in the name of the breeder and hit search. You will be surprised at what you will find!!


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## LJack

I don't know much about titles across the pond. Here at home in North America, here is some title information. 

Dogs of a English or European style are very popular and competitive in Canada it seems concentrated in Onterio. So, it is not uncommon for dogs of this type to be taken to Canada to compete and earn a Candian Championship.
For those in the West or Southwest that trip to Canada maybe cost prohibitive. 

It is very difficult to successfully show a dog of this type to an AKC championship. So, it is less common to see.

There is the option to show in the UKC. In my area I have seen English/European style dogs compete and earn UKC Championships. They are not as hard to win as a AKC title but are still a great indicator the dog is a good representative of the breed. There are not as many of these shows and geographically they are not close to some areas.

There is also the International Dog shows. These are also not held as often and are not always available depending on your area. They award Championships a little differently. Every dog is judged and given a rating. 3 qualifying ratings = National Champion, 4 = International Champion. I love these shows as a place to practice and as a venue for rare or developing breeds. The downside for me is that it is not competition based. Meaning that dogs who have never even placed can be awarded Champion status. So, to me this title caries little weight if earned in a North America.

Finally, is the CCA a program brought to us by the GRCA. It is a valuable tool and personally to me I like it more than an International Championship.

I hope this information helps when trying to decipher pedigrees. Good luck!


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## sterregold

Claudia, there is no defending Silvermine. He repeatedly breeds dogs who are too young to have clearances. His operation is well known to breeders in the North American breed community who have English lines. None of us would ever knowingly sell a dog to him, and we warn our overseas contacts about him as well. He has a slick marketing operation, not a sound breeding program. His goal is to sell expensive puppies, not breed good Goldens. He does nothing with his dogs but breed them. And breed them. And breed them. It is because of people like him and White Dove, and Cyanzar, that good breeders like AnneF are now so very cautious about exporting their pups to North America. Because of his ilk, reputable people like myself (who title dogs in conformation, field, and obedience, belong to breed clubs and serve on their executive, and give our time back as judges) now have far fewer choices if we want to bring in fresh lines for our programs.

I know you are coming from a place of loving your Rose--but you can love her without trying to defend undefensible breeding practises. Separate yourself from that part of her history and move ahead with a focus on what reputable breeders do so that more people can find the resources that will help them avoid operations that do not have the dogs' best interests in mind.


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## Claudia M

Shelly, as per my PM I do not know nor have I ever met the Silvermine people. I do respect your opinion and a very few others on this forum.


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