# Obedience Rule Questions



## daisydoo79 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi!

Full Disclaimer: Hi, My name is Emily and I'm a total newbie regarding anything related to showing/competing dogs. 

There, I feel better now that that's out in the open 

I've been researching Obedience rules & I have a couple questions.



Are the Novice, Open, & Utility levels based on the dog's level solely? Are there levels for novice handlers?
How are Obedience classes scored? Is it a point system? Do you get scored compared against other competitors or are you scored individually based on a standard?
I don't understand the AKC rules for titles. For example, it says you can qualify for XXX title "after receiving three qualifying scores under two different judges." What is a 'qualifying score'?
Thanks in advance!
Emily


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Emily
1) Novice , Open and Utility levels have two sets of classes . The "A" classes are considered Novice handler classes. "B" classes are considered the pro's..lol.
2) Every exercise is scored against the set of rules for that exercise. I would go to AKC and download the rules and then read the judges section. Gives you a better idea of what they are looking for.
3) You are required to have three qualifying scores under two different judges for a title. You need three novice "legs-scores" to obtain the CD title.
I would suggest if you are really interested to attend a show locally and be prepared to sit for awhile. You will want to watch the Novice A and Novice B classes so you can see the differences. You could ask for some help and explain that you are new to the sport and it seems someone is always happy to explain.. Just don't ask a team right before they are going in the ring.. some of us like to get mentally prepared and get our dogs warmed up and watching us....
Have fun .. it is very addicting..


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

By the time I finish typing this out someone will probably beat me to a reply but oh well LOL

1. All dogs must start at the novice level. Novice is divided into A and B classes. Novice A is only for first time handlers. So with a very few rare exceptions, everyone only has one Novice A dog. For handlers that have titled dogs before, they must show in Novice B. Once a dog earns a title from novice A, they may stay in that class up to 30 days, then if the handler still wants to show in novice they must show in Novice B.
Open is the next level. Dogs that have not already earned an Open title (CDX) may show in Open A. Again dogs may stay in Open A 60 days after earning the title, and then they must show in Open B. The exception is if a handler has ever put an OTCH on a dog (OTCH is the top level title), then they MUST show any future dogs in the B classes.
Utility comes next (UD). The same rules apply for the A and B classes - dogs start in the A class unless the handler has previously put an OTCH on a dog.
A handler may always choose to show in the B classes even if they qualify to show in the A classes.
After the dog has earned the UD, there are additional titles that can be earned from Open B and Utility B - UDX, OM, and OTCH

2. A perfect score is 200. Points are deducted from there. Placements are based on score, 1st through 4th place in each class. A and B classes have separate placements.

3. A qualifying score means you earn at least 170 of the possible 200 points, and more than half of the available points for each exercise. If you do not pass an exercise it is called an NQ (non qualifying).


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RO2999.pdf

here's a link to the rules and regulations, most things are pretty clearly explained in there.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Hi Emily! Don't worry about being a newbie. We were all there at one point or another. 

Let me see if i can answer some of your questions. 

1. There are different divisions of Novice, Open, and Utility. Each major class is divided into A and B sections. The A sections are for "beginner" handlers who have not titled a dog in that class. For example, Novice A is for handlers who have never titled a dog in obedience before, basically complete beginners. 

2. Mostly, you are competing for a "perfect"score, against a standard. The rule book lists major and minor point deductions. You start with 200 points and then lose points as you go along. There are placements, so you are competing against other dogs, but only because the scores are ranked. I hope that makes sense. 

3. To get a qualifying score, you have to get at least 170 points, scoring at least 50% of possible points in each exercise. For example, if you have a perfect score going, but you completely fail one exercise, you can't qualify, even if you would still have over 170 points. 

I highly recommend you read the rule book thoroughly. Also, when I started, I read "Successful Obedience Handling" by Barbara Handler (yes, her real name). You can find it on amazon.com. The book breaks down the rules and each exercise. 

Good luck. Don't be afraid to ask questions! We love to help new people get into our wonderful sport of obedience.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I have learned some rules the hard way- by being a blockhead. For example, I once forgot bc running late, and did a CD leg with Tally wearing his Orvis collar with his name and number stitched on it. Usually, I change it to a plain flat leather one. We Q'd, but then the elderly ring steward caught the collar on the way out and we lost our leg bc the judge had not written in his book yet.

Another time, I was running late and wore my flipflips in the rally ring. Tally came front, and just caught the tips, so when I stepped back to do the 1,2,3steps, I left my shoes! 
The judge was like, hey Cinderalla, get your shoes. I was flustered and excused myself.

Finally for our last CD leg at in outdoor show, it was downpouring rain like I cannot explain in words- torrential. I had a rain coat on that had a small loge reading "Yale University Crew". Since this is not dog related, I did not think twice about it. 

Lol, the judge made me take it off and I ended up in my t shirt out there soaked to the skin( poor Tally did his downstay in an ever-deepening puddle) but he got a great score and finsihed his title bc he is such a good boy.

Most people are not as dumb as me, but I learn some things the hard way!


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> By the time I finish typing this out someone will probably beat me to a reply but oh well LOL
> 
> The exception is if a handler has ever put an OTCH on a dog (OTCH is the top level title), then they MUST show any future dogs in the B classes.
> Utility comes next (UD). The same rules apply for the A and B classes - dogs start in the A class unless the handler has previously put an OTCH on a dog.
> ...


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## daisydoo79 (Jun 26, 2008)

Thank you so much everyone. This makes MUCH more sense!

And I'm super glad to hear about the A/B classes. I was scared to death of having to compete against a seasoned handler


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## daisydoo79 (Jun 26, 2008)

BTW, Ljilly, the second photo in your sig file cracks me up. What a perfectly timed capture!


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> I have learned some rules the hard way- by being a blockhead. For example, I once forgot bc running late, and did a CD leg with Tally wearing his Orvis collar with his name and number stitched on it. Usually, I change it to a plain flat leather one. We Q'd, but then the elderly ring steward caught the collar on the way out and we lost our leg bc the judge had not written in his book yet.
> 
> . . . I had a rain coat on that had a small loge reading "Yale University Crew". Since this is not dog related, I did not think twice about it.
> 
> Lol, the judge made me take it off and I ended up in my t shirt out there soaked to the skin( poor Tally did his downstay in an ever-deepening puddle) but he got a great score and finsihed his title bc he is such a good boy.


Hard to believe these stories but they underscore the importance of reading the rules completely.

Another question . . . even though Zoe has her BN (I haven't titled any other dog) . . . we're still Novice A when we enter a trial??


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

TheZ's said:


> Hard to believe these stories but they underscore the importance of reading the rules completely.
> 
> Another question . . . even though Zoe has her BN (I haven't titled any other dog) . . . we're still Novice A when we enter a trial??


None of those things were actually against the regulations, and if they happened anytime recently (as in this decade), then it seems more a case of an uninformed judge.

As for BN, the only thing it affects is rally...dogs with a BN must show in B classes in rally, but for obedience may still show in novice A


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> None of those things were actually against the regulations, and if they happened anytime recently (as in this decade), then it seems more a case of an uninformed judge.
> 
> As for BN, the only thing it affects is rally...dogs with a BN must show in B classes in rally, but for obedience may still show in novice A


Jodie you still can't have logo's or anything to ID the dog's name. Tags ect..
I have watched a local judge ask someone to go out and turn their shirt inside out.. It had a rescue organization on it..
I had to ask AKC rep about my ling shirt with the HIT and HC on the back. he says as long as it does not ID my dog or kennel I was okay. He said he had more of the problem with the article bags and names and titles on them setting ringside..


*Section 10. Identification.​*​​​​No visible means of identification
(badges, ribbons, club jackets, etc.) may be worn or displayed by anyone​
exhibiting a dog in the ring.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

But that only applies to dog related identification, a Yale club shirt should not be a problem.

And AKC has stated that embroidered ID on the collar is allowed, just can't have anything hanging off of it.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> . . .
> As for BN, the only thing it affects is rally...dogs with a BN must show in B classes in rally, but for obedience may still show in novice A


A BN in _obedience_ would put you in B classes in rally?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Yes, the regs state that the rally A classes are for dogs that have not previously earned an obedience title.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> But that only applies to dog related identification, a Yale club shirt should not be a problem.
> 
> And AKC has stated that embroidered ID on the collar is allowed, just can't have anything hanging off of it.


Yup, exactly. What kind of horrid steward would do that to someone anyhow?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I think I am the bermuda triangle for this sort of thing. I am like the class clown.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Also, we once had a judge who had a touch of dementia and the awesome stewards were trying to compensate without embarrassing or stressing her. During Tally's stand for exam, she lost her balance and leaned on him so hard on his back he sagged. That darn dog just stood there, but is was really quite a moment. Then, for the stays, she wandered away to the stewards' table and drank some cold coffee in a travel mug that was not hers. . . You have to be prepared for anyhting, lol, and have a sense of humor.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> I have learned some rules the hard way- by being a blockhead. For example, I once forgot bc running late, and did a CD leg with Tally wearing his Orvis collar with his name and number stitched on it. Usually, I change it to a plain flat leather one. We Q'd, but then the elderly ring steward caught the collar on the way out and we lost our leg bc the judge had not written in his book yet.


Had a similar experience our very first time ever in a obedience ring. Brandi and I had just finished the recall and as I leashed her and exited the ring a competitor outside the ring yells to the judge "Hey Frank, that dog has tags on". He calls us back over and says "Next time please do not switch collars so quickly or you may get NQ'ed" as he winked. Another competitor came over and grabbed me by the arm and pulled me away as I started to explain I had NOT switched collars. :doh: That person then explained that tags were not permitted in the ring. I had NO idea as I had, like most folks, never read the rules. :uhoh:
I also heard a couple folks give a hard time to the one who turned us in. :bowl: Brandi went on to win the class and I had visions of this thing called an OTCh in my head, but that is another story.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> Also, we once had a judge who had a touch of dementia and the awesome stewards were trying to compensate without embarrassing or stressing her. During Tally's stand for exam, she lost her balance and leaned on him so hard on his back he sagged. That darn dog just stood there, but is was really quite a moment. Then, for the stays, she wandered away to the stewards' table and drank some cold coffee in a travel mug that was not hers. . . You have to be prepared for anyhting, lol, and have a sense of humor.


OMG. That beats my quibble about one judge who I won't ever show again (if he's still showing).... 

He did a full utility style exam on Jacks in beginner novice. My sister even snapped a picture of him DOING THAT.  The rules say they are only supposed to do a light pat on the head and that's what we practiced. This was also right after lunch and the judge smelled like his balogna sandwich. 

My instructor - when I told her about what happened and showed her the pic - told me to send a complaint to the AKC about it, particularly as it cost us. He broke his stay and nq'd, that's regardless of him rocking out everything else. 

I never did send it in, because I think he has been having health problems so who knows.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

It drives me crazy how many judges don't keep up with the regulations. If it's not clear how it's written in the book, AKC will clarify in newsletters and other updates. I'm not sure why I seem to know the regs and what AKC expects better than so many judges.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Ok I have a dumb question. I thought I understood that a person who has never shown or titled a dog in obedience can show in novice, open and utility "A". However talking to someone this weekend at a Bridget Carlsen seminar, they were telling me about their UDX dog, then in the next breath about preparing for open A. Am I losing my mind? A handler who has titled in a division must show "B" with any subsequent dog, correct? 

I admit I don't read the rules super close. I read what pertains to me. I know Gabby and I are prepping for open and utility "A", and if Teddi goes back to the obedience ring for her third and final leg, we have to show B because I titled Gabby last October. 

I kept thinking I heard wrong but she repeated it more than once. 

Ann


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

You can only title one dog in novice A. All your dogs can title in open and utility A until you earn an OTCH, then any subsequent dogs must show in B.

I prefer the B classes myself and usually enter B even when I'm qualified for A


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Plus, showing in B, you get to hang out with all the 'cool kids' when doing out of sights


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> You can only title one dog in novice A. All your dogs can title in open and utility A until you earn an OTCH, then any subsequent dogs must show in B.
> 
> I prefer the B classes myself and usually enter B even when I'm qualified for A


Yup yup. But I was thinking about this, and it seems pretty silly. If you have titled 10 dogs to UDs, but no OTCH, should you really be able to show in the "A" classes? Obviously, MOST handlers probably don't do this, but I wish it were in the rules. I think all the "A" classes should be for handlers who haven't titled to that level with a dog before, just like it is with Novice A. I could show Riot in Novice A, because I've never titled in AKC, but I wouldn't do that. Unfortunately, I know of handlers who have done this. 

::Sigh:: anyway, lots of things that I would change if I were "king of the world"


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

mlopez said:


> Yup yup. But I was thinking about this, and it seems pretty silly. If you have titled 10 dogs to UDs, but no OTCH, should you really be able to show in the "A" classes? Obviously, MOST handlers probably don't do this, but I wish it were in the rules. I think all the "A" classes should be for handlers who haven't titled to that level with a dog before, just like it is with Novice A. I could show Riot in Novice A, because I've never titled in AKC, but I wouldn't do that. Unfortunately, I know of handlers who have done this.
> 
> ::Sigh:: anyway, lots of things that I would change if I were "king of the world"



That would be your choice but trust me there is a HUGE difference between handlers who have titled 10 dogs to UDs and never an OTCh and those that have attained an OTCh. I think the current set up works perfectly the way the AKC has it set up in this situation.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

AmbikaGR said:


> That would be your choice but trust me there is a HUGE difference between handlers who have titled 10 dogs to UDs and never an OTCh and those that have attained an OTCh. I think the current set up works perfectly the way the AKC has it set up in this situation.


Mmmm, I don't know, I would disagree. Just because you don't have an OTCH doesn't mean you aren't a skilled and experienced trainer/handler. Some dogs just don't have the ability to beat other dogs to get that OTCH. Some trainers don't have the drive (or time, or money) to do what you have to do to get an OTCH. So are you saying the trainer who has been in the ring tons of times and titled some UDs should be competing against the trainer who is working on their first UD, possibly their first time in the Utility ring? 

Disclaimer: I don't have an OTCH, just a few points from my previous dog.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't see a problem with a handler showing in A classes if they qualify to do so no matter how experienced they are. Open A and Utility A are based on the experience of the DOG, not the handler.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Exactly, what difference does it make? The dogs don't know if they are in A or B. It's the same qualifying score you earn.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

mlopez said:


> So are you saying the trainer who has been in the ring tons of times and titled some UDs should be competing against the trainer who is working on their first UD, possibly their first time in the Utility ring?



Yep, exactly.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

My opinion about the Utility classes.. I believe the people that work hard to get that UD degree are going for legs and not really concerned about placements even though around here ... any Q will usually get you a placement. When someone gets their UD they are already moving to B as soon as they are allowed. 
Titan is my 1st UD dog a beyond. While I had completly forgotten about the rule and we are not the world most experienced trainer..I would have probably never went back to Open A with Mighty. It is about the longer haul with the dogs now. I would rather be in with the better trained group of dogs.. Not saying that there are not great A dogs.. There are.. I personally would rather be in with the trainers I know would not stick a totally green dog on stays and "hope" things turn out okay...
I trained Titan with a mixed up sequence for Utility and Open and will do the same for Mighty.. I spent exactly three trial days in UA and my instructor told me to finish it in UB if I needed..


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

When I showed in Utility A, it never bothered me to show against those that had gotten UD's before. There are so many opportunities to mess up. When I finally got my UD with Laney she had placed either first or second for each leg...not gonna say how many times it took, don't remember, I suppose I could look it up....


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

When you qualify in utility A, the majority of the time you are pretty much guaranteed a placement. And I've never seen a utility A person disappointed they didn't get a higher place. They are just so thrilled to have a leg!


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Learn something new!!! Thanks all 

Ann


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

I can see the other side too. I guess I just don't get then why have the OTCH rule, if it is all about the level of the dog. Always interesting discussions here


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