# To Show or not to Show



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I think I'd take a break from trialing completely until he gets his confidence back. As much as I like Rally, I don't think taking a break from Obedience and doing Rally instead is going to help things. It's so easy to let bad habits slip in when you do Rally. You probably won't even notice yourself doing it. Mostly talking too much and sloppy heeling - since heel position is more loosely defined in Rally. I'm personally not sure the potential confidence boost is worth the bad habits. Not that you are guaranteed to develop them or anything. Take your teachers' biases with a grain of salt too. 

Really the decision comes down to what your true goal is: Do you want that UD more than RM RAE and RACH?


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I want to do both. We tend to not do the "rally hands" stuff as much. That's what we call it where I train and breaking people of that habit isn't always easy. I save extra commands for when they are necessary. Tell him good when something's a little complicated for us and he gets it right. I hold obedience criteria in the rally ring. We lose points on not fully understanding rules and signs....which I'm working on. We got into the Rally class so that'll help. I don't have any obedience teachers. I teach myself with help from a few friends of varying experience. We are finally back to training on a regular basis...I've been under the weather for a full month!


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

"Rally hands" LOL definitely a thing. And I'm totally guilty of it with Rocket. Too bad you don't live closer to Columbus. I'm starting an Open class next week at ARF under a wonderful OTCH trainer that I think you would like.


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## GrandmaToGoldens (Jul 2, 2019)

I’m in much the same situation with Honey, except that Scent Discrimination is our main issue. The first article is fine but by the second article she’s too worried by judge, steward and me all watching her. There’s also a bit of learned helplessness there, I think. She expects to have problems with the second rep, so she does.

I’ve decided to pull her from UD until at least April. I’ll do practice UD run-throughs without Scent Discrimination and work on Scent Discrimination separately. Once she’s regained her confidence in the exercise, I plan to practice in an many different environments as possible before I trial in UD again.

I will continue to trial in Rally and Open Obedience because I want the competition ring to be “business as usual” when I return to UD competition. However, I will only compete at venues where Honey is relaxed and under judges whose pleasant manner won’t stress either of us.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Any time your dog goes in the ring and gets no reward and no correction, you are teaching him that the ring means no reward and no correction. So Rally would be a BIG OUT for me. I doubt Pilot thinks Rally is just amazing, he probably doesn't care about it one way or the other. But every time he goes in the Rally ring it is re-affirming in his mind that the ring means no rewards for effort and no corrections for mistakes, so why try. This will directly, negatively affect your performance in the utility ring.
Personally I would attend obedience trials where they have a correction match the night before, so you can teach him where the go-out spot is. I found this to be decidedly helpful when I had Slater in Utility. No ring time the night before meant I didn't enter. 
Best of luck!


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Pinyon wasn't quite ready for Utility when he finished his CDX, so we did a fair amount of Rally while I was beefing up his Utility training. In Rally, I've gone from jabbering, to near silence, to my current stage of selective talking. I give a verbal and physical cue for all the exercises, a "pre-cue" on the ones that are difficult (like moving down or backing up), and praise for many of the signs, especially the stationary ones. What I never do is "cheerlead", i.e., try to jolly up a droopy dog or sweet talk a dog that is lagging on the heel. Cheerleading often works the first few times, but ultimately, it makes the problem worse. 

That said, since a UD is your bigger goal, if you think Rally is affecting his OB skills, I would totally stop doing Rally. 

Put 90% of your training focus on solving the issue he is having the most trouble with. If it's DJ, and specifically the go-outs. do go-outs all over the place. Keep two folding rulers in your training bag and two in your vehicle. Or, if you trained to a mat, carry a mat in your car. Every time you get a chance to visit a park or a schoolyard, or any other safe place, put out your guides (mat or unfolded rulers) line him up, send him out, give a reward marker (click or "Yes" or whatever), release, and give an exciting reward: toss a visible treat or a toy. Repeat a couple of times with the guide, then repeat a couple times without the guide. Pack up and leave. If choosing the right jump is not an issue, do the jumps maybe 10% or 20% of the time. You can do the same thing all over your yard. Bear in mind that every time you line up for a go-out, you should always give the same cues, you should always line up the same way, and you should always be looking at the go-out location yourself, never at the dog, except out of the corner of your eye. 

The Fix and Go changes everything, too. Always enter 2 days of a trial in OB. If he seems uncertain about the go-out location on the first jump, even if he goes far enough to get 8 feet beyond the jumps, finish that portion of the exercise, then say "Fix and Go", walk out and show him the location, praising highly when he taps his nose on it or looks at it. On the send, set up where you are fairly confident he will go all the way, even if it's only two feet away, line up, send, give your reward marker the instant he gets to the go-location, cheer, ask for the leash, and head for the treat. Don't have him do the jump. End the ring time making it clear that the reward is for going-out to the right place.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

ArkansasGold said:


> "Rally hands" LOL definitely a thing. And I'm totally guilty of it with Rocket. Too bad you don't live closer to Columbus. I'm starting an Open class next week at ARF under a wonderful OTCH trainer that I think you would like.


Yeah….most rally people are! In my class, one of the first things we work on is the “rally hands”. I feel like rally can be helpful if you do it right. I looked into the class you’re talking about. An hour and 10 minute drive…we honestly drive further for field training. Problem is, I’m not sure I would get along with their positive only policy. I would probably get kicked out in the first 10 minutes after I corrected him for being stupid.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Thanks! You have all given me a lot to think about. I do think we need to back up and slow down for a bit. Part of me wants to keep him in the ring and part of me doesn’t. We are entered in a trial this weekend so we are still doing that. Unfortunately, nobody has show and goes around here anymore. Not sure what my next step will be right now.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Abeille said:


> Yeah….most rally people are! In my class, one of the first things we work on is the “rally hands”. I feel like rally can be helpful if you do it right. I looked into the class you’re talking about. An hour and 10 minute drive…we honestly drive further for field training. Problem is, I’m not sure I would get along with their positive only policy. I would probably get kicked out in the first 10 minutes after I corrected him for being stupid.


I think their biggest deal is not using prong collars, but I doubt anyone is going to get kicked out for correcting a dog being an a-hole. Plus Pilot is an angel, so I don’t think you have to worry. Lol


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

ArkansasGold said:


> I think their biggest deal is not using prong collars, but I doubt anyone is going to get kicked out for correcting a dog being an a-hole. Plus Pilot is an angel, so I don’t think you have to worry. Lol


Im thinking it said anything more than a flat collar wasn’t allowed. I never use prong with him, but I do sometimes use a chain collar. I’ll keep it in my mind about the class. Definitely not until spring though. It’s nice to hear that Pilot made a good impression. He doesn’t really do a-hole level stuff…he’s more of a butthead sometimes. Lol He is a very sweet boy and really wants to do what I ask of him.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Abeille said:


> Im thinking it said anything more than a flat collar wasn’t allowed. I never use prong with him, but I do sometimes use a chain collar. I’ll keep it in my mind about the class. Definitely not until spring though. It’s nice to hear that Pilot made a good impression. He doesn’t really do a-hole level stuff…he’s more of a butthead sometimes. Lol He is a very sweet boy and really wants to do what I ask of him.


I got permission to use a martingale if that helps.

Im just excited to have any upper level obedience at this point. Everybody in the class is teaching pretty green dogs, so it should be a fun learning experience.

Pilot did make a good impression! He’s a sweetheart and he tries hard.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

ArkansasGold said:


> I got permission to use a martingale if that helps.
> 
> Im just excited to have any upper level obedience at this point. Everybody in the class is teaching pretty green dogs, so it should be a fun learning experience.
> 
> Pilot did make a good impression! He’s a sweetheart and he tries hard.


I understand completely! Let me know how it goes! Club across town offers upper level. I took an Open class there and found that they just aren't my thing. 

Thanks! I hope other people saw that too! He was better the second day. That first day with 40 people staring at him was a bit overwhelming. Oh...he never did play like Matt thought he should, just not who he is.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Abeille said:


> I understand completely! Let me know how it goes! Club across town offers upper level. I took an Open class there and found that they just aren't my thing.
> 
> Thanks! I hope other people saw that too! He was better the second day. That first day with 40 people staring at him was a bit overwhelming. Oh...he never did play like Matt thought he should, just not who he is.


And that’s totally fine. You’re doing a fantastic job with him.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Yesterday....Did everything right until I told him the wrong jump for directed jumping. 

Today.... distracted. Off the charts distraction for him. He didn't down all the way on signals. He didn't go on the first time for directed retrieve. BUT.....HE QUALIFIED ON DIRECTED JUMPING!!!!!! This is huge for us! his first time ever. First time was really nice. Second time wasn't nearly as good but he did it! Lost 6 points. All of this under the judge he was spooked by before. 

Renewed confidence for sure. It was a very busy trial with lots of noise. We will go ahead and enter next month's trial. We can only do 1 day because there's a trial on Friday too. I always check premiums due to things like no children/no indoor crating/etc. The trial I wanted to choose has a no children unless entered poilcy and it's my weekend with my granddaughter.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

That sounds like a good weekend! In the bloodbath of Utility A, you have to hang on tight to those signs of improvement.


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