# Spay Question



## Neciebugs (Nov 18, 2017)

I always spay/neuter my animals, usually before 6 months. I waited a little longer with my toy dogs. My last golden we got was in 1997, and early spay was what I was recommended. Sienna never suffered any ill effects other than late obesity as she was not the most active dog.

I am researching when to spay Daisy. She is now 12 weeks old. Our vet recommended 6 months. I have read conflicting studies out of UC Davis. It looks as if sterilization not desexing is the better option (leaving the ovaries intact). There is a marked increase in joint issues and certain cancers if the ovaries are removed before age 6. Are many vets trained to do that? I want to go with that option when the time comes, if at all possible. I just messaged my friend who is a vet... and my sig. other is asking his friend who is a UC Davis schooled vet. I just want to do the best for Daisy, but I will not leave her intact under any circumstance. 

Thanks for your thoughts!!


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## Neciebugs (Nov 18, 2017)

Not that it relates to a golden, and might just be coincidental, my chihuahua was spayed before her first heat (about 7 months old). She wound up blowing both cruciate ligaments at age 2 and had major surgery on both legs. Makes me wonder (other than predisposition) if lack of hormones contributes. My mind is spinning now.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Here is some good reading information for you. It's sort of hard to know what to do. Letting your girl have at least one heat seems to be best, you can also do a search using the search feature above and find plenty of threads on this subject that should be fairly recent. I choose to leave my girl intact and will spay her in another year or two when she is 5 or 6. I wanted her to have her hormones. Everyone has to decide what is best for their dog and their home.


https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/golden-retriever-study-suggests-neutering-affects-dog-health/

Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers

https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/neutering-health-effects-more-severe-golden-retrievers-labradors/


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I guess I should have added that when I do spay her I will probably opt for Ovary sparing spay so that she continues to have hormone benefit.


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## Neciebugs (Nov 18, 2017)

nolefan said:


> Here is some good reading information for you. It's sort of hard to know what to do. Letting your girl have at least one heat seems to be best, you can also do a search using the search feature above and find plenty of threads on this subject that should be fairly recent. I choose to leave my girl intact and will spay her in another year or two when she is 5 or 6. I wanted her to have her hormones. Everyone has to decide what is best for their dog and their home.
> 
> 
> https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/golden-retriever-study-suggests-neutering-affects-dog-health/
> ...



Thanks!i have read some of the UC Davis literature. IT is definitely something to consider. My dear friend, who is a vet, says the research is still so recent and not widely accepted. She still recommends if you are not breeding, no earlier than 6 months, but before first heat. My sig other has yet to hear from his friend who went to Davis, but she does mass sterilization for the SPCA. 

I still have plenty of time. She was in for her 3rd shot today, so we didnt see our regular vet. He is super smart and always up on the current research and best practice. Next time...

I never would have thought twice about early spay until I read a few articles from Davis.


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## Gleepers (Apr 20, 2016)

Just realize that with an ovary sparing spay that your dog will still go into heat. There may be some discharge and certainly still the issue of attracting males. I do actually think this is probably the best choice health wise but we opted for a full spay just because it was easier for our lifestyle. 

Our local spay/ neuter clinic (the one ever rescue in the region uses) offers hormone sparing surgery for both males and females. Don’t know if that would be the case in your area but something to look at.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I'm reluctant to get into this discussion, as they go south so often. So I'll offer this, only.

I base my decisions on the health of the dog. My lifestyle, convenience and baloney about how behavior is affected don't enter into my decision. That said, I do not believe that the science is "too new." It's well established, at this point. That objection sounds like the climate change denier technique applied to dogs. UC Davis has excellent work on Goldens in that regard, and I believe them and my friend Chris Zink (look her up).

The health of the dog is best served by waiting at least two years before spay/neuter. There is very little reason to _ever_ neuter a male. A female lowers certain risks that come with age, so that's okay after 2 years old, but an ovary-spaying spay is best for the health of the dog.

Vets have a financial interest in early spay/neuters. They even have courses on how to get them from clients. Vets operate on small margins, and spays/neuters and vaccines are what often make their overhead, and can make the difference between a successful and a failed practice. Vets know that you are most likely to spay/neuter if you do it when the dog is still young, and they know that they are most likely to get the assignment if they get you while you are their early client, with a puppy. Even vets who actually are advocates for spay/neuter of pets and who don't consciously acknowledge the money motivation often rationalize it, relying on old science to say, "Well, the science isn't in yet, and it's best to get it done early just to make sure. I've done XXXXX of them, and nothing bad has ever happened."

Early spay/neuter increases risks of orthopedic conditions and cancers in Goldens, sometimes dramatically. That's really no longer in dispute. If my vet trotted out the old, "Well, the science isn't really in, yet" line, I'd be giving him/her a 20-minute lecture and then getting a new vet.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

We have a male, and will be adding another male in 2018. Noah will be 3 in January, and we have decided to keep him intact, and will do the same with our second male. I've read and read, and I'm convinced that the health benefits outweigh any reasons (for us) to neuter. Testicular cancer happens in less than 1% of intact dogs, and if that does happen, it's easy enough to remedy if caught early (and yes, that means that we routinely feel his testicles to see if we feel anything suspicious). So, the only reason we'd neuter, is if it were medically necessary. 

Now with females, there are other things to consider, like pyometra. But if we had a female, we'd also wait until after the second heat most likely. 

I found this video very enlightening when I was researching to make our decision to keep Noah intact.


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## Neciebugs (Nov 18, 2017)

Gleepers said:


> Just realize that with an ovary sparing spay that your dog will still go into heat. There may be some discharge and certainly still the issue of attracting males. I do actually think this is probably the best choice health wise but we opted for a full spay just because it was easier for our lifestyle.
> 
> Our local spay/ neuter clinic (the one ever rescue in the region uses) offers hormone sparing surgery for both males and females. Don’t know if that would be the case in your area but something to look at.


I dont think that is possible... but I don't know for sure. I know I had a hysterectomy that left my ovaries. I still release eggs, still have hormones, but no periods or cycle... other than ovulation.


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## Neciebugs (Nov 18, 2017)

Rabernet ... I love Dr. Becker!


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## Neciebugs (Nov 18, 2017)

Thank you all for the great info!  I need to talk to my vet to see if he does ovary sparing spays. The studies are pretty clear, especially breaking it down by dog's age. She will definitely be spayed... just hope I can find a vet that will leave her ovaries.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Neciebugs said:


> I dont think that is possible... but I don't know for sure. I know I had a hysterectomy that left my ovaries. I still release eggs, still have hormones, but no periods or cycle... other than ovulation.


The heat cycle is just that, ovulation. So a bitch who's had an OSS wil still release hormones and attract males.


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## Neciebugs (Nov 18, 2017)

I found a site that lists vets that do ovarian sparing spay... none here in San Diego. A few in Pasadena and Malibu, but I wouldn't drive a dog in unpredictable traffic after major surgery. :-/ Now if I lived in my home town (Buffalo, NY)... there is a vet who does it. I am hoping the site is outdated.

I really wanted to do ovarian sparing spay with my chihuahua but no one did it... especially on toy dogs. When i mentioned it they thought I was crazy.


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## Neciebugs (Nov 18, 2017)

ArchersMom said:


> The heat cycle is just that, ovulation. So a bitch who's had an OSS wil still release hormones and attract males.


Makes sense...


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## PattyMcN123! (Oct 15, 2017)

If with ovary sparing spay the hormones still attract the males does that mean most doggy daycare facilities will not accept them? This presents a problem for us because I want my girl to be able to go to half day doggy daycare on the two days I work


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## MelissaGV (Sep 4, 2017)

*Criticism of UC Davis Study*



Neciebugs said:


> Thanks!i have read some of the UC Davis literature. IT is definitely something to consider. My dear friend, who is a vet, says the research is still so recent and not widely accepted. She still recommends if you are not breeding, no earlier than 6 months, but before first heat. My sig other has yet to hear from his friend who went to Davis, but she does mass sterilization for the SPCA.
> 
> I still have plenty of time. She was in for her 3rd shot today, so we didnt see our regular vet. He is super smart and always up on the current research and best practice. Next time...
> 
> I never would have thought twice about early spay until I read a few articles from Davis.


Hi,

I have a 4 mo. golden and also had questions about recent studies. My vet is recommending spay after 6 months but before first heat because the risk of mammary cancer (which is a big killer) rises with each heat cycle. She also talked about the increase in pyrometras with late spay. Ovary sparing surgery does not address these concerns.

The criticism I have read and talked about with the vet deals with the size and source of the samples used in the study (very small, limited in scope to animals seen at a teaching hospital, etc.)


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## Neciebugs (Nov 18, 2017)

MelissaGV said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a 4 mo. golden and also had questions about recent studies. My vet is recommending spay after 6 months but before first heat because the risk of mammary cancer (which is a big killer) rises with each heat cycle. She also talked about the increase in pyrometras with late spay. Ovary sparing surgery does not address these concerns.
> 
> The criticism I have read and talked about with the vet deals with the size and source of the samples used in the study (very small, limited in scope to animals seen at a teaching hospital, etc.)


My old vet, who is now a friend, told me the same. Next time I see our vet, I will ask him. But, even if ovary sparing spay addressed the concerns, I am not able to find a local vet who would do it. I will likely have her Spayed in March (when I go on spring break -- teacher). She will be almost 7 months and I will be off of work for 2 weeks to make sure she takes it easy.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

MelissaGV said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a 4 mo. golden and also had questions about recent studies. My vet is recommending spay after 6 months but before first heat because the risk of mammary cancer (which is a big killer) rises with each heat cycle. She also talked about the increase in pyrometras with late spay. Ovary sparing surgery does not address these concerns.
> 
> The criticism I have read and talked about with the vet deals with the size and source of the samples used in the study (very small, limited in scope to animals seen at a teaching hospital, etc.)


How does one get pyometra after an ovary-sparing spay? Pyo is an infection of the uterus. There's no uterus after the spay. Spays are the cure for pyo. If you're talking pyo in an intact bitch prior to spay, the study that found that risk indicated that the risk was elevated after the intact bitch turned six years old. Certainly, the risk of pyo in a bitch spayed at 2 years old, having gone through only a few heat cycles and never been bred, are negligible. 

Mammary gland carcinoma is way down the list of cancers in Golden Retrievers. More common in Goldens are osteosarcoma, mast cell disease, lymphosarcoma, oral melanoma, hemangiosarcoma, and thyroid carcinoma. Early spay/neuter has been found to increase the risks of several of these. Hemangio was found to be 4 times more prevalent in early spayed females than in those left intact. In fact, the statistics from the most recent health survey for Golden Retrievers suggest that 1 in 5 Goldens will be affected by hemangiosarcoma, and 1 in 8 will be stricken with lymphoma. If mammary cancer is truly the concern, would one not also be even more concerned about the far more common hemangio, which is found to be affected by early spays?

The UC Davis study is not the only study to note these increased risks. And the size of the UC Davis study is fairly large, following 759 Goldens. As far as these reviews go, that's a fairly sizable study.

Your vet sounds like one of the ones who has taken the continuing education course in practice management, the goal of which is to get more vaccinations and spay/neuters. I've sat through one of those, and your vet's arguments are the ones they are given.


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## MelissaGV (Sep 4, 2017)

DanaRuns said:


> How does one get pyometra after an ovary-sparing spay? Pyo is an infection of the uterus. There's no uterus after the spay. Spays are the cure for pyo. If you're talking pyo in an intact bitch prior to spay, the study that found that risk indicated that the risk was elevated after the intact bitch turned six years old. Certainly, the risk of pyo in a bitch spayed at 2 years old, having gone through only a few heat cycles and never been bred, are negligible.
> 
> Mammary gland carcinoma is way down the list of cancers in Golden Retrievers. More common in Goldens are osteosarcoma, mast cell disease, lymphosarcoma, oral melanoma, hemangiosarcoma, and thyroid carcinoma. Early spay/neuter has been found to increase the risks of several of these. Hemangio was found to be 4 times more prevalent in early spayed females than in those left intact. In fact, the statistics from the most recent health survey for Golden Retrievers suggest that 1 in 5 Goldens will be affected by hemangiosarcoma, and 1 in 8 will be stricken with lymphoma. If mammary cancer is truly the concern, would one not also be even more concerned about the far more common hemangio, which is found to be affected by early spays?
> 
> ...


Which are the other studies? I read the Davis one, and the concern with sample, to my understanding, is that the goldens one may see in a teaching hospital come from families with means to afford advanced medical care. SO the sample may be skewed. Also, I thought certain OSS left the uterine stump?

I am not familiar with the risk of mammary cancer being so low; anecdotally, many people I have talked to with pets mentions their goldens had mammary cancer. Also, I assume the risk of any cancer increases with age (as it does in humans), so are there studies that deal with "young onset cancers" in dogs spayed after 6 months and before 1st heat?

I am struggling with what to do in terms of spaying; I am speaking to a variety of vets to get different viewpoints.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Aw, nuts. This is why I stay out of these threads usually. It's like discussing politics or religion. You know, you can do your own research just like I did. But okay, briefly, then, and then I'm outta here.

Spayed females had more than 5 times greater risk than intact bitches of developing cardiac hemangiosarcoma. Ware WA, Hopper DL. Cardiac tumors in dogs: 1982-1995. J Vet Intern Med 1999 13(2):95-103

Spayed females had 2.2 times increased risk for developing splenic hemangiosarcoma. Prymak C, McKee LJ, Goldschmidt MH, Glickman LT. Epidemiologic, clinical, pathologic, and prognostic characteristics of splenic hemangiosarcoma and splenic hematoma in dogs: 217 cases (1985). JAVMA 1988;193:706-12

Male and female Rottweilers that were neutered or spayed before a year of age had 3.8 and 3.1 times greater risk, respectively, of developing bone cancer than intact dogs. Cooley DM, Beranek BC, Schlittler DL, Glickman NW, Glickman LT, Waters D. Endogenous gonadal hormone exposure and bone sarcoma risk. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2002 11(11):1434-40. In a second study, spayed/neutered dogs had a 2.2 times higher risk of developing bone cancer than intact dogs. Ru G, Terracini B, Glickman LT. Host related risk factors for canine osteosarcoma. Vet J. 1998 156(1):31-9.

Neutered dogs had a 3.6 higher risk for developing transitional cell carcinoma of the bladder than intact dogs, and a 3 times greater risk of developing any bladder tumor. Bryan JN, Keeler MR, Henry CJ, Bryan ME, Hahn AW, Caldwell CW. A population study of neutering status as a risk factor for canine prostate cancer. Prostate 2007;67:1174-81. Sorenmo KU, Goldschmidt M, Shofer F, Ferrocone J. Immunohistochemical characterization of canine prostatic carcinoma and correlation with castration status and castration time. Vet Comparative Oncology. 2003 Mar; 1 (1): 48. 

Spayed/neutered dogs had more than 4 times greater risk for developing transitional cell carcinoma of the bladder than intact dogs. Knapp DW, Glickman NW, Denicola DB, Bonney PL, Lin TL, Glickman LT. Naturally-occurring canine transitional cell carcinoma of the urinary bladder A relevant model of human invasive bladder cancer. Urol Oncol 2000;5:47-59.

In a survey of 2505 Vizslas, spayed or neutered dogs were found to have a significantly higher risk of mast cell cancer, hemangiosarcoma, lymphoma and all cancers together than intact dogs. Gibbons, T.A., Ruffini, L., & Rieger, R.H. (2009). The 2008 Vizsla Health Survey. West Chester, PA: West Chester Statistics Institute (This one is actually available on the web, thanks to the Vizsla Club of America, at http://vcaweb.org/download/Vizsla-Health-Survey-Analysis_Final-V3.pdf)

There is more, but that's all I'm motivated to post now. And that's just some of the cancer issues. There are many other studies done regarding the orthopedic risks of early spay/neuter, also.

In a study of 203 agility dogs, the author demonstrated that the tibia and radius and ulna were significantly longer than the femur and humerus, respectively, in dogs that were spayed or neutered at or prior to 8 months of age as compared to intact dogs.(M.C. Zink, unpublished data) (This is my friend Chris Zink, probably the world's foremost authority on canine sports medicine.)

Several studies have shown that spayed and neutered dogs have a significantly higher prevalence of CCL rupture (3–6), even when controlling for body size. Slauterbeck JR, Pankratz K, Xu KT, Bozeman SC, Hardy DM. Canine ovariohysterectomy and orchiectomy increases the prevalence of ACL injury. Clin Orthop Relat Res. 2004;(429):301-5. (We have some early spay/neuter Goldens right here on this forum that have suffered such injuries and even a couple that are recovering from surgery right now.)

Dogs that were neutered at least 6 months prior to a diagnosis of hip dysplasia were 1.5 times more likely to develop hip dysplasia than sexually intact dogs. van Hagen MA, Ducro BJ, van den Broek J, Knol BW. Incidence, risk factors, and heritability estimates of hind limb lameness caused by hip dysplasia in a birth cohort of boxers. Am J Vet Res 2005;66:3071-2.

Spayed/neutered dogs had 3.1 times higher incidence of patellar luxation. Vidoni B, Sommerfeld-Stur I, Eisenmenger E. Diagnostic and genetic aspects of patellar luxation in dogs in Austria. EJCAP 2005;16:149-58

As for stump pyometra from an ovary-sparing spay, I'm not sure why you even bring that issue up. If you're concerned about that, simply make sure they remove the entire uterus in your bitch. Otherwise, WTH??? Sounds like arguing just to argue. Besides, stump pyometra is extremely rare in an OSS (often stump granulomas are wrongly diagnosed as stump pyometra) and are not horribly life-threatening the way a closed pyo in an intact bitch is.

Okay, I'm done with this thread. What I've found is that no matter how much information people are given, they usually go with their first instinct. Again, like politics and religion. I also find that people put tremendously greater weight on whatever their vet says than what some breeder on the internet citing a bunch of studies has to say. So this is all the energy I'm going to devote to this issue. I've said all this (and more) a hundred times around here, and it always seems to be a waste of bandwidth.

So I am a fool.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Dana, I tell all my puppy people (as I am reasonably sure you do) to let their girls have a cycle. There is such a tiny risk -really tiny!- of a pyo on that cycle and so much benefit that I can't imagine not letting them have a heat. And mammary cancer- in my 40 years in dogs, I have known of only one bitch who had a mammary tumor. I've known otoh of many many who have died of osteosarcoma, who have died of hemangio, and allowing a heat has been shown to reduce chances of both those, while one cycle increases the risk of a mammary tumor something like 3%... 
I know you feel like you're talking to the wall sometimes....but don't quit letting people borrow your brain when you have the energy to....


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

I tell my puppy clients to wait until at least age two to alter their animals. In fact the purchase agreement is void (no warranty) if they alter the animal early. The health benefits far outweigh the potential risks. 

I know it's hard for people to wrap their head around the fact that the spaying/neutering that has been beaten into their heads for the last 30 years, carries with it some serious health concerns. Altering an animal has far reaching, life long health and structural ramifications for the animal. 

It is not something to be taken lightly.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Swampcollie said:


> I tell my puppy clients to wait until at least age two to alter their animals. In fact the purchase agreement is void (no warranty) if they alter the animal early. The health benefits far outweigh the potential risks.


I have the same clause in my puppy contract. Not until after 2 years old.


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## Senravj (Oct 25, 2017)

*People are listening...*

Dana, 

I'm sure you must feel like you're talking to a wall in here if the people replying aren't absorbing what you are offering up. But I'm sure I'm not the only one to read all this very carefully and am appreciative of what you and others are adding to this conversation.

I want to know all I can about giving my pup the best chance to live a long, healthy life. And this is a huge subject. 

While lots of people have pre-conceived notions and are hard to sway, there ARE people reading this and considering it. So thank you.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Senravj said:


> Dana,
> 
> I'm sure you must feel like you're talking to a wall in here if the people replying aren't absorbing what you are offering up. But I'm sure I'm not the only one to read all this very carefully and am appreciative of what you and others are adding to this conversation.
> 
> ...


Thanks for saying that. I spent a lot of time posting in this thread the specifics, backed by science, in an effort to educate. I note that neither of the people questioning me thanked me for my efforts or responded in this thread since I posted the list of studies. People just do whatever they want to do. Most don't care about what is right or factual, they just care about what they feel. Sucks for the dogs.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I spayed my girl just before her 2nd birthday. I believe my contract said at least 18 months. Be sure to check your contract before you decide. I had a vet do everything she could to talk me into spaying while she was very young. It came to the point where I went to a different vet who doesn’t demand that I spay/neuter my animals as small puppies. 

Some vets are way too eager to spay/neuter every animal that walks through their door.


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

Yes, Dana, I agree! Don't give up! The info you post up here is so valuable and I really appreciate when the knowledgeable people like you take the time to post all this! So thank you!


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