# Lyme disease



## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Max gets the vaccination every year, we live in the woods so I consider it a precaution. The vet tells me every year that it's not 100% effective and I tell him it's better than nothing! So far I haven't heard any negatives about it.


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

I vaccinate Beamer for it since it is pretty common in my area, too. It is not the most effective vaccine like some of the others but just remember it is a newer vaccine and they are working to improve it. Prevention is much better of an option than having to treat. I never want one of my dogs to go have lyme disease. I see it everyday in my vet.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

It's not a perfect vaccine, but if Lyme is prevalent in your area and your dog is exposed to ticks at all, the minor risks of the vaccine are worth the layer of protection it provides. You still need to prevent ticks with something like a topical and check for them after exposure. We also do a SNAP 4Dx blood test every six months to see if something got through (it tests for Lyme as well as two other tick-borne diseases, and it also tests for heartworm, which you need to do yearly anyway).


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## Evie (Dec 22, 2011)

We're in Maine and there are plenty of ticks and some Lyme around here so we do vaccinate for it. Better than nothing, and if we didn't do it and Evie got Lyme we'd feel terrible.


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

It's not that effective, lots of dogs that get the vaccine still get lyme, Retrievers and Labs are at risk from kidney disease from Lyme and the vaccine, and there are a whole lot of other tick diseases to worry about.

If a dog that has been vaccinated comes down with lyme, it can cause a stubborn case of lyme that may not resolve, and may also cause increased arthritic changes.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

w00f said:


> It's not that effective, lots of dogs that get the vaccine still get lyme, Retrievers and Labs are at risk from kidney disease from Lyme and the vaccine, and there are a whole lot of other tick diseases to worry about.
> 
> If a dog that has been vaccinated comes down with lyme, it can cause a stubborn case of lyme that may not resolve, and may also cause increased arthritic changes.


These are pretty dramatic claims, so it would be good to have some information to back them up.

Where did you read that the vaccine can cause kidney disease? How was that studied?

Where did you read that the vaccine can cause a "stubborn" case of Lyme, and how does that work? A vaccine should cause the exact opposite of what you describe.


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

I haven't heard of any of those side effects either and I work for a vet. We see a lot of lyme in our area and if my veterinarians didn't trust the vaccine we wouldn't buy it. 

I'd say it is more of a risk not to vaccinate and have your golden (or lab) come down with kidney issues.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

I would also like to see claims backed up by articles etc. 
I vaccinate my dogs against lymes, no side effects and my vet would tell me if there was a risk to my dogs. I have worked with him previously and he is very thorough and knows, I take very good care of my dogs. I think I am his best customer, lol.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

My vet said she seems to see lighter cases of Lyme in dogs that are vaccinated and still get it. That's anecdotal, but she's an e-vet in southern CT, so she sees a relatively high number of Lyme cases.


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

Rainheart said:


> I haven't heard of any of those side effects either and I work for a vet. We see a lot of lyme in our area and if my veterinarians didn't trust the vaccine we wouldn't buy it.
> 
> I'd say it is more of a risk not to vaccinate and have your golden (or lab) come down with kidney issues.


The fact that you haven't heard of the side effects is not surprising to me. They aren't running the studies on dogs, but there IS ample anecdotal evidence if you know where to find it, and you will find it in some of the studies.

Note that the current vaccines all contain OspA at minimum. 

Lyme Vaccine
Lyme Disease Vaccine

http://iai.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/...pe2=tf_ipsecsha (Development of destructive arthritis in vaccinated hamsters challenged with Borrelia burgdorferi.)

Occurrence of Severe Destructive Lyme Arthritis in Hamsters Vaccinated with Outer Surface Protein A and Challenged with Borrelia burgdorferi (Occurrence of Severe Destructive Lyme Arthritis in Hamsters Vaccinated with OSP-A vaccine and Challenged with Borrelia burgdorferi)

Adverse event reports following vaccination for Lyme... [Vaccine. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI (Adverse event reports following vaccination for Lyme disease: December 1998-July 2000.)

Small fiber neuropathy following vaccination for rab... [Vaccine. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI (neuropathy after vaccination)

Neuropathy and cognitive impairment fol... [J Peripher Nerv Syst. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI (Neuropathy and cognitive impairment following vaccination with the OspA protein of Borrelia burgdorferi.)

Leerburg | Lyme Disease Update
A few dogs can develop lesions on the kidneys (Lyme nephropathy) and may not respond to antibiotic treatment. Interestingly, dogs susceptible to this condition may not be protected by the Lyme vaccines currently available. In fact, there are concerns that the vaccine may possibly sensitize a genetically predisposed individual to having a more intense immune-mediated reaction to Lyme antigens, or the vaccine may add to antigen-antibody complex deposition in tissues (Meryl P. Littman, VMD, DACVIM, University of Pennsylvania).


Information on the release of the Novibac Lyme OspA and C Lyme vaccine 6/2009:
New Lyme Vaccine for Dogs Introduced
(Be sure to read the comments at the end.)


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Mine all get vaccinated for Lymes. Never any side effects for them.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Woof, of all the things you posted, none of them say that the Lyme vaccine causes kidney issues, nor does it say that the Lyme vaccine causes arthritis. Just so we're clear.

For example, the adverse events report you cited specifically found no "unexpected or unusual patterns of reported adverse events following Lyme disease vaccine administration, other than hypersensitivity reactions, compared with adverse events observed in clinical trials."

All the arthritis studies you posted are of animals who are fighting the infection, not the vaccine. Nothing you posted claims the vaccine causes arthritis or kidney issues. The one hamster study on arthritis is about challenging hamsters with the disease 10-12 days after vaccination.

So what you've posted does not support your original claims that "Retrievers and Labs are at risk from kidney disease from Lyme and the vaccine" and "If a dog that has been vaccinated comes down with lyme, it can cause a stubborn case of lyme that may not resolve, and may also cause increased arthritic changes."


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

Believe what you like. In fact, may as well vaccinate every 6 months if it's so safe and protective?

I've seen dogs die from the lyme vaccines, and others have lifelong illness - been watching this process for a lot of years. Your choice, but I wouldn't let my dog within a mile of one of those vaccines.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

w00f said:


> Believe what you like. In fact, may as well vaccinate every 6 months if it's so safe and protective?
> 
> I've seen dogs die from the lyme vaccines, and others have lifelong illness - been watching this process for a lot of years. Your choice, but I wouldn't let my dog within a mile of one of those vaccines.


I'm not talking about belief. I'm talking about what's proven and what's not proven. All of these rumors and scary stories fly around, but when you actually study the vaccine, it's no riskier than any others and it's far less risky than the disease.

Vaccine risks are real, but reactions have to been seen in the context of their frequency and severity, and the only way to really understand those two factors is to see them in a large sample size. Every time the Lyme vaccine is studied that way, we learn that the protection is real and the severe side-effects come at a very, very low rate.

It is a strange statistical anomaly that you've seen, with your own eyes, at least two dogs die from complications of the Lyme vaccine, and I understand how persuasive that hands-on experience is. However, everybody in the New England dog community knows of multiple dogs who were crippled with Lyme arthritis or died from Lyme nephritis.

So it's the raw math of the frequency and severity of vaccine reactions vs. the frequency and severity of the disease in your area. If you don't have Lyme near you, then the vaccine is a bad choice. Its low rate of severe reactions is still higher than a zero chance of Lyme infection. If ticks and Lyme are prevalent in your area, however, your dog stands a high risk of exposure (frequency) and approximately a 5% chance of severe symptoms (severity). That's a much, much higher risk than the vaccine offers.

The clinical findings on the Lyme vaccine put reactions in the <0.1% range, probably less <0.01%. That's one, maybe two orders of magnitude safer (i.e., 10 to 100 times safer) than leaving the dog unvaccinated in an area that has ticks and Lyme.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Mary*

I had both of my dogs vaccinated, just in case!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

As far as your "6 months" question, it seems to have been asked sarcastically, but I'll answer it seriously, just in case it's not. Different vaccines have different efficacy. Lyme appears to need yearly boosters, and it may actually take a year and a booster before protection maxes out. However, there's nothing that currently shows that a more frequent schedule provides better protection, and it probably wouldn't.

However, if there were a shot or a pill that I could give my dog monthly that would give him protection against any of the TBDs, and it had been studied well enough to show side-effect rates as low as the Lyme vaccine has, you can be darn sure I'd give it.

In fact, I already do. I put fipronil (Frontline) on my dogs every month. It's a pesticide with documented side effects, some of which can be severe. However, they occur at a drastically low rate, and the risks of ticks and fleas are far higher than the risks of fipronil. So I do the math and use the fipronil.

Same thing with ivermectin (Heartgard) or milbemycin oxime (Interceptor).

We make these choices under the guidance of our vets in order to minimize the risks to our dogs. All treatments and prophylactics carry risks, but the question is whether the risk is a smart gamble against the scenario of the dog developing the disease.


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## ChoppersMOM (Nov 23, 2011)

Just my input here... no expert... I had my dog Chopper vaccinated for lyme and he got lyme anyway. I lost him to lyme, he went into renal failure and I lost him in 6 days. That being said, my puppy Boomer... I still chose to vaccinate. Clearly it isn't 100% but if you saw the absolute agony Chopper and I went through... if were even 10% I'd still consider it.


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

ChoppersMOM said:


> Just my input here... no expert... I had my dog Chopper vaccinated for lyme and he got lyme anyway. I lost him to lyme, he went into renal failure and I lost him in 6 days. That being said, my puppy Boomer... I still chose to vaccinate. Clearly it isn't 100% but if you saw the absolute agony Chopper and I went through... if were even 10% I'd still consider it.


The vaccine can increase the chance that the kidneys fail in susceptible dogs. Which ones are susceptible, is probably a genetic marker that hasn't yet been studied, but it really currently not known. In a susceptible dog, once they get lyme, you have increased the amount of immune complexes that the kidneys are trying to filter. When lyme is treated, it will decrease the immune complexes from infection, but the ones left from the immune system disorder will not respond to antibiotics.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

w00f said:


> The vaccine can increase the chance that the kidneys fail in susceptible dogs. Which ones are susceptible, is probably a genetic marker that hasn't yet been studied, but it really currently not known. In a susceptible dog, once they get lyme, you have increased the amount of immune complexes that the kidneys are trying to filter. When lyme is treated, it will decrease the immune complexes from infection, but the ones left from the immune system disorder will not respond to antibiotics.


Can you provide any evidence for this claim? More specifically, can you provide evidence that the Lyme vaccine has a higher risk of creating auto-immune reactions, specifically those that lead to glomerulonephritis?


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## ChoppersMOM (Nov 23, 2011)

I am curious as well where this information can be found. I am on a quest to be more knowledgable about what happened to my heart dog. Any additional information or resources would be very helpful!


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## luvgolds (May 20, 2009)

Ditto! I'd be very interested in the info as well....Buddy's fighting Lyme now and I'm trying to learn as much as I can to help Buddy fight this successfully! And of course try to do what I can to prevent Harley from getting lyme, too.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

@ Woof, we are still waiting for proof. Just throwing something out there without backing it up, is not the way to get our confidence.
My dachshund is getting vaccinated for Lymes again on Monday.


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

Be my guest, vaccinate away. Just glad I am not your dog. 

There are studies that show that some animals get destructive arthritis from the OspA vaccine (happening slowly over the years so that you don't make the connection) when later exposed to lyme, most of the vet schools do not recommend it, it is capable of inducing a lifelong immune complex disease. It is also possible that it allows lyme to hide in the body and be undetected by current testing. 

Those in the position to measure and keep track of such vaccine reactions, unlike some of their predecessors, have made a very clear and conscious decision not to. I conjecture this is due to the politics involved.

I am not going to convince you otherwise, and I certainly am not going to stress over trying to convince you of something that you seem to think is a good idea.

I will say that any vet that pushes this vaccine should 1) make sure that the dog tests negative for lyme before each and every vaccine, 2) should never vaccinate a lyme positive dog or one that has had lyme, 3) might consider using Cornell's multiplex lyme test, which measures OspA response and may show that a booster is not needed, and 4) maybe Antech's new Accuplex is useful here, I believe it also measures vaccine antibodies and you don't want to re-vax if antibodies are still registering. Vaccine antibodies, though they say only last a year, have been measured as far out as 10 years post vaccination in some dogs.

If you actually looked into this, you would see that in approximately 1/3 of humans, the OspA vaccine will cause severe side effects, including debilitating arthritis, which is one reason it was pulled from the market. The dogs with this same genetic defect are probably the ones that are at risk from the vaccine. There is no such study in canines to find out if this is true (previous lab director explained how unethical it would be), and I have yet to find out exactly what percentage of dogs have this same genetic issue. Having seen dogs harmed (and killed) by this vaccine, I do fully expect a number of dogs have this genetic issue, but the extent is unknown. Also unknown is whether this is the only population that is harmed by the vaccine. Certainly in mice, those exposed to lyme after having the vaccine did experience damage.


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

The protocol at my vet is to vaccinate starting at 8 weeks if possible and booster at 12 weeks. The vaccine is then good for a year. At the year visit we then start doing the 3DX (and now switching to the 4DX+ test) and vaccinate yearly from there.

If a dog has lyme disease (or comes up positive on our test) we will treat with Doxy for 30 days. Then we check a urine sample and start the vaccine.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I dont vaccinate for Lyme...or kennel cough. If my dog gets lyme, I will deal with it at that time.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

w00f said:


> Be my guest, vaccinate away. Just glad I am not your dog.
> 
> There are studies that show that some animals get destructive arthritis from the OspA vaccine (happening slowly over the years so that you don't make the connection) when later exposed to lyme, most of the vet schools do not recommend it, it is capable of inducing a lifelong immune complex disease. It is also possible that it allows lyme to hide in the body and be undetected by current testing.
> 
> ...



So, in other words, you don't have sources for your claims of how dangerous the vaccine is. You have no evidence whatsoever about your glomuleronephritis theory and some very thin evidence about arthritis that doesn't at all support your claims. The reference material you posted does not substantiate any what you're saying here. You also go on to make claims about "immune complex disease" and a very vague claim about Lyme "hiding" with no evidence at all. Furthermore, some of what you yourself posted directly contradicts some of your claims. For example, you say 1/3 of humans experience severe side effects, but the side effects study you yourself posted said they were rare.

You're not doing anybody any favors by exaggerating the dangers of a vaccine that can protect dogs from injury and death, and if you want us to take your theories seriously, you need to provide evidence for them. The utter lack of evidence is not convincing at all, especially with the extreme claims you're making, and when some of your own evidence contradicts your claims, it's a bit hard to take the rest seriously.

You say you've seen dogs die from the vaccine. I'm curious as to how you arrived at the conclusion that it was definitely the vaccine that killed them. I've known dogs who died of Lyme nephritis. We _know_ that Lyme killed them, no speculation necessary.


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## Sammy&Cooper (Dec 28, 2011)

I vaccinate both of mine for lymes. I live in an area where ticks are everywhere (especially this year because of the warm weather). better safe than sorry IMO.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Sammy&Cooper said:


> I vaccinate both of mine for lymes. I live in an area where ticks are everywhere (especially this year because of the warm weather). better safe than sorry IMO.


Im in Ontario and theres not an established population of deer ticks. My old vet was shoving the vaccine down every ones throat then admitted the above. I dont vaccinate for it. Never will. When you get into the neighbouring area such as Wainfleet theres lots of deer ticks that way


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## Sammy&Cooper (Dec 28, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> Im in Ontario and theres not an established population of deer ticks. My old vet was shoving the vaccine down every ones throat then admitted the above. I dont vaccinate for it. Never will. When you get into the neighbouring area such as Wainfleet theres lots of deer ticks that way


I'm in thunder bay (northwestern Ontario) where there is a high population of deer. to the point where the deer venture by our house to eat out of our neighbours bird feeder. I have also had to pull a few ticks off of each of my dogs this month alone.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Not only deer ticks carry Lyme. Originally, it was thought that only Ixodes ticks carried Lyme, but now even the soft bodied ticks have been found to carry it. Their ability to transmit it is still being studied, but they can definitely carry it, so it's likely that they're responsible for at least some cases.

"It's not in this area" killed at least one dog I know when she turned up lame. She wasn't treated for Lyme because she spent time in Canada and VT in areas that weren't thought to have Lyme. A Lyme test was finally done after several weeks, but it was too late, and she died of nephritis.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

tippykayak said:


> Not only deer ticks carry Lyme. Originally, it was thought that only Ixodes ticks carried Lyme, but now even the soft bodied ticks have been found to carry it. Their ability to transmit it is still being studied, but they can definitely carry it, so it's likely that they're responsible for at least some cases.
> 
> "It's not in this area" killed at least one dog I know when she turned up lame. She wasn't treated for Lyme because she spent time in Canada and VT in areas that weren't thought to have Lyme. A Lyme test was finally done after several weeks, but it was too late, and she died of nephritis.


I used go live a big city and one of the neighbors was a K9 officer. The GSD ended up with Lymes but since he was never in "deer" country they didn't test for it til it was too late. The poor dog was only 4 when it killed him.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

MikaTallulah said:


> I used go live a big city and one of the neighbors was a K9 officer. The GSD ended up with Lymes but since he was never in "deer" country they didn't test for it til it was too late. The poor dog was only 4 when it killed him.


The research is fairly new, but there's plenty now that shows that Lyme has expanded aggressively and can be found in nearly any species of tick. It's not well known which species are actually communicating the disease at what rates, but the bacterium has been isolated in nearly every species of tick in the Americas.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Not only deer ticks carry Lyme. Originally, it was thought that only Ixodes ticks carried Lyme, but now even the soft bodied ticks have been found to carry it. Their ability to transmit it is still being studied, but they can definitely carry it, so it's likely that they're responsible for at least some cases.
> 
> "It's not in this area" killed at least one dog I know when she turned up lame. She wasn't treated for Lyme because she spent time in Canada and VT in areas that weren't thought to have Lyme. A Lyme test was finally done after several weeks, but it was too late, and she died of nephritis.


Well until they prove that dog ticks can transmit lyme is when I will believe it. I have seen not one tick on either of my dogs this year. Which is odd because I normally putt 1-2 a year off them. Mine also had a lyme test done last year it was negative


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lincoln_16 said:


> Well until they prove that dog ticks can transmit lyme is when I will believe it. I have seen not one tick on either of my dogs this year. Which is odd because I normally putt 1-2 a year off them. Mine also had a lyme test done last year it was negative


Lyme has been isolated in dog ticks, but there's no proof yet that they transmit it competently. 

The main vector is still thought to be nymph stage Ixodes (deer and black-legged) ticks. They're so small that they're frequently not found on dogs at all. They attach, feed, and drop off, all unseen.


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> So, in other words, you don't have sources for your claims of how dangerous the vaccine is. You have no evidence whatsoever about your glomuleronephritis theory and some very thin evidence about arthritis that doesn't at all support your claims. The reference material you posted does not substantiate any what you're saying here. You also go on to make claims about "immune complex disease" and a very vague claim about Lyme "hiding" with no evidence at all. Furthermore, some of what you yourself posted directly contradicts some of your claims. For example, you say 1/3 of humans experience severe side effects, but the side effects study you yourself posted said they were rare.
> 
> You're not doing anybody any favors by exaggerating the dangers of a vaccine that can protect dogs from injury and death, and if you want us to take your theories seriously, you need to provide evidence for them. The utter lack of evidence is not convincing at all, especially with the extreme claims you're making, and when some of your own evidence contradicts your claims, it's a bit hard to take the rest seriously.
> 
> You say you've seen dogs die from the vaccine. I'm curious as to how you arrived at the conclusion that it was definitely the vaccine that killed them. I've known dogs who died of Lyme nephritis. We _know_ that Lyme killed them, no speculation necessary.


It's called a body of evidence from someone that has watched a lot of lyme cases for over a decade.

As for the kidney statement, I guess you put no stock in Dr. Littman's statement - many researchers believe this. If you are waiting for proof, you will never have it, since the studies won't be done.

The former head of the Cornell serology lab found a surprisingly high percentage of dogs that supposedly had lyme (due to the symptom of polyarthritis) tested positive only for exposure to the vaccine.

Here are some quotes from the consensus paper, which was not really a consensus, the panel that wrote this paper was quite split.


_3. Has ‘‘Lyme Nephropathy’’ Been Definitely
Associated with Bb Infection of Dogs?
Although there is no experimental model for Lyme
nephropathy and Koch’s postulates are not satisfied
there are multiple reports of dogs with Bb antibodies
developing a unique renal histopathologic lesion, including
immune-mediated glomerulonephritis, diffuse
tubular necrosis and regeneration, and lymphocyticplasmacytic
interstitial nephritis.11,30,32,33,a About 30%
had a history of arthritis and almost 30% had a history
of Lyme vaccination. Labrador Retrievers, Golden
Retrievers and Shetland Sheepdogs have been overrepresented
in some studies (Sanders, personal communication).
32 Dogs with Lyme-associated protein-losing
nephropathy (PLN) are younger than dogs with PLN
from other causes.32 Positive staining for Lyme antigens
in canine renal tissue of dogs with this nephropathy were
found with monoclonal antibody stains,11,30,32 and the
agent was isolated in urine,11 but a causal relationship
still is not proven.

[feel free to use this as an excuse to argue it doesn't exist.....those with enough hands on experience know better]


...............

25. What Adverse Effects are Associated with
Administration of Lyme Vaccines?
It has been estimated that administration of Lyme
vaccine is associated with ,2% adverse effects.84 Because
Lyme arthropathy and Lyme nephropathy arise at least
in part from immune responses against the organism,
there are concerns that vaccination might contribute to
the immunopathogenesis of disease in some dogs. This
sensitization has been demonstrated for other organisms,
including feline infectious peritonitis virus, caprine
encephalitis virus, and ovine visna-maedi virus.91 In
humans, antibodies against several Bb antigens react
with several autoantigens (ie, molecular mimicry),
including lymphocyte function–associated antigen 1
(LFA-1), myelin, myosin, cardiolipin, and thyroid,92–95
which has complicated the use of Lyme vaccines in
people. The development of a Lyme bacterin for humans
was considered too risky and was discontinued. The
human subunit OspA vaccine was launched in December
1998 but was taken off the market in February 2002
because of poor sales. There were concerns about
possible immune-mediated sequelae in people with
HLA-DR4 haplotype, who are predisposed to chronic
nonresponsive Lyme disease, which might be triggered
by OspA mimicry of LFA-1.92,96–99 A new, potentially
safer 2nd-generation vaccine for humans that excludes
the cross-reactive epitope is being studied.100 OspA has
been shown to be proinflammatory and sensitizing in rat
and hamster models of Lyme arthritis, causing them to
have more severe signs upon challenge or re-exposure.
92,101–107 Nonviable spirochetes trigger the production
of inflammatory cytokines in dogs.24,27 Almost 30%
of dogs with putative Lyme nephropathy had been
vaccinated.32 OspA was found in the renal cortex of dogs
with Lyme nephropathy with the use of a mouse
monoclonal anti-OspA stain.11,30 OspA is not yet proven
to be the antigen involved in immune complex deposition
in glomeruli but Lyme-associated nephropathy
is an immune complex disease.b At Ryan VHUP, a dog
with Lyme nephropathy that became very ill a few days
after its 2nd rOspA vaccine was described (Fincham,
personal communication). The Western blot and SNAP
tests showed no evidence of natural exposure, but a very
high anti-OspA antibody concentration was detected.
Because OspA is in both bacterins and rOspA vaccines,
there is concern about whether it could trigger, sensitize,
or add antigens to antigen-antibody immune complex
deposition in target tissues such as synovia or glomeruli
in genetically predisposed individuals. Additional data
will be required to determine the incidence of Bb
vaccine–associated disease.

...

26. Can Lyme Vaccination be Used as an
Immunotherapy in Seropositive Dogs?
It has been recommended that all seropositive dogs be
treated with a month of doxycycline and vaccinated with
Lymevaxe at 0 and 14 days.34 Currently, no published
data from a controlled study supports this recommendation.
Some data suggest that this approach might be
harmful (see question 25), and overuse of antibiotics for
all asymptomatic seropositive dogs might not be
warranted.

ACVIM Small Animal Consensus Statement on Lyme Disease in Dogs: Diagnosis, Treatment, and Prevention - Littman - 2008 - Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine - Wiley Online Library_

So, all you lyme vacciners out there, when your dog shows up with early arthritis, bad backs or other joints, neuro problems, or weak kidneys before their time, you have no way of knowing whether or not it was caused by these great lyme vaccines. And of course, lyme isn't the only thing you have to concerned about from ticks....


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I've read most of this thread - and you know what? When you live where I do and you can easily take dozens of ticks off your dog every day, then you can come and tell me I'm doing a horrible thing by trying to protect him from the disease they carry. Thank you for trying to make me feel like a horrible person because I trust my vet. Thank you for making me feel like I'm hurting my dog - something I would NEVER do. 
This whole thread reminds me of Bible discussions - you can always find a verse that supports your position if you just look. 
I think I'll just go on trusting my vet. No, I'm not blindly following his advice - but he hasn't steered me wrong yet.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

w00f said:


> It's called a body of evidence from someone that has watched a lot of lyme cases for over a decade.
> 
> As for the kidney statement, I guess you put no stock in Dr. Littman's statement - many researchers believe this. If you are waiting for proof, you will never have it, since the studies won't be done.


Why won't the studies be done? That's sort of a convenient dodge for you, isn't it? You can make your claims and then explain that there's never going to be evidence, not because your claims are exaggerated but rather because of what, some shadowy conspiracy?




w00f said:


> The former head of the Cornell serology lab found a surprisingly high percentage of dogs that supposedly had lyme (due to the symptom of polyarthritis) tested positive only for exposure to the vaccine.


But how, if the studies don't get done? And where's that paper?



w00f said:


> Here are some quotes from the consensus paper, which was not really a consensus, the panel that wrote this paper was quite split.
> 
> 
> _3. Has ‘‘Lyme Nephropathy’’ Been Definitely
> ...


_

You mean I should use the fact that what you quoted says the opposite of what you claim as proof that you're wrong? Well, yeah. You claim this "hands on" experience, but you don't even make it clear what you mean. Are you referring to your personal experience? Or to a researcher's? The argument from authority is specious. There are plenty of experienced docs on both sides. That's why we use research to settle science arguments. You like to quote research that you believe supports you, but you're happy to ignore all the rest.



w00f said:



25. What Adverse Effects are Associated with
Administration of Lyme Vaccines?
It has been estimated that administration of Lyme
vaccine is associated with ,2% adverse effects.

Click to expand...

See what I mean? You claimed 1/3 of dogs would have adverse effects. This says 0.2%. Do you not see that you're totally biased towards information that supports your point, even to the extent that you skim over numbers in material that you quote in support of your position?



w00f said:



OspA is not yet proven
to be the antigen involved in immune complex deposition
in glomeruli but Lyme-associated nephropathy
is an immune complex disease.

Click to expand...

So there we go, right? OspA not proven to be the cause of renal failure. Proving it was OspA from the vaccine rather than from the bacteria is even further from having solid evidence as a cause of nephropathy. 

You are cherrypicking what you read to fit your preconceptions. It's fine if you want to use those preconceptions to make decisions about your own dogs, but when you announce in a public forum that a vaccine causes kidney damage, especially in one where people have lost dogs to Lyme nephritis, that's irresponsible and actually a bit cruel. If you wanted to say that kidney damage is a concern that we should balance against our other concerns, I could see that, but that's not what you're doing. 



w00f said:



So, all you lyme vacciners out there, when your dog shows up with early arthritis, bad backs or other joints, neuro problems, or weak kidneys before their time, you have no way of knowing whether or not it was caused by these great lyme vaccines. And of course, lyme isn't the only thing you have to concerned about from ticks....

Click to expand...

According to your logic, it could also be aliens. After all, we can't prove it isn't. There are also people who will blame wheat in dog food, plastic in water bowls, chicken byproduct meal, topspot treatments, pesticides, and a thousand other things that could theoretically be to blame but have no proven causal link.

There's no proof it's the Lyme vaccine, and there's plenty of proof that there are a million other causes of all of those problems. So if a dog comes up lame or shows kidney issues, you want us to blame the vaccine. That's what you've clearly done when you talk about the dogs you're absolutely sure were killed by this vaccine. 

However, even if some of what you're saying has merit, and it may, the incidence rate of those problems is vastly lower than the incidence rate of problems from Lyme. After all, even if 1/3 of dogs with Lyme nephritis are vaccinated, 2/3 weren't vaccinated. Given how commonly the vaccine is given in Lyme-endemic areas, doesn't that seem to indicate that it affords a significant layer of protection?_


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## maryt (Jun 22, 2012)

Hi Everyone:

Thank you all for your input, however my decision was to vaccinate Baxter for Lyme. My vet didn't push it as Lyme isn't around PEI however I do travel a lot to Chester Nova Scotia and Ontario and they are there, so it is better IMO to get it done and my vet agreed. She is the specialist and all I want to do is protect Baxter from whatever I can. I thought about it and weighed the pros and cons.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

maryt said:


> Hi All:
> 
> I took Baxter to the vet today for his second set of vaccinations and I was wondering what are your opinions on getting him vaccinated for Lyme disease. I did get the vaccination, as we travel to Nova Scotia a lot and there is a major problem over there, as well we travel to Ontario as well which also apparently has a problem.
> 
> ...


I wont vaccinate for it. It also depends where in Ontario you travel to. Wainfleet, theres a deer tick problem. Here in Niagara Falls, there is not. My friend vaccinated her dog for lyme disease at my old vet. She vet gave her the "Oh wow yes theres a ton of cases here and deer ticks etc" when I called up and asked about the lyme vaccine before I left the clinic they told me lyme isnt a problem in this city and theres not a ton of deer ticks. O.O So, he essentially lied to my friend to get her to vaccinate.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Canine Lyme Disease Vaccine Side Effects - VetInfo


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Out of everyone here I am probably the most paranoid about Lyme disease as I live with chronic Lyme disease. However I would be very cautious about the vaccine itself. After all until recently the dogs were given a 6 month shot for heartworms.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

"In other breeds more significant symptoms have been reported; lymphadenopathy and more often in Labradors and Golden Retrievers, serious kidney disease with protein losing nephropathy which may not respond to antibiotics. This kidney disease however is immune mediated and relates to the immune response to the infectious agent antigens: or the antigens used in the Lyme vaccines.

This damage is from the immune system antibody as complexes with the antigen from either the natural organism exposure repeated or to the antigen from vaccines administered. Reports of Lyme Nephritis without any organisms found on renal bi- opsies lends one to realize that significant immunopathology results from the antigen as it engages with the immune system and the disease results just as easily from the vaccine as it does from exposure to natural infection. If the disease pathology can be triggered from antigen alone, that means that vaccines are capable of inducing dis- ease and that vaccines will convey cumulative damage with each administration.1, 2, 3" Dogs Naturally Magazine » Lyme Disease And Lyme Vaccine Disease


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> If the disease pathology can be triggered from antigen alone...


And that's the assumption that simply isn't proven. There really isn't evidence that the disease pathology is triggered by vaccine antigens. There are "reports," but a real lack of actual proof.


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> These are pretty dramatic claims, so it would be good to have some information to back them up.
> 
> Where did you read that the vaccine can cause kidney disease? How was that studied?
> 
> Where did you read that the vaccine can cause a "stubborn" case of Lyme, and how does that work? A vaccine should cause the exact opposite of what you describe.


Woof is 100% correct. The vaccine is worthless at best and dangerous at worst. 95% of dogs that are "infected" remain asymptomatic. 99.9999% of the rest are taken care of with medication. No matter if you vacinate or not an owner must take care of a dog if it becomes symptomatic. Most dogs show improvement within a few days. In some studies even dogs that exhibited early symptoms became asymptomatic in just a few days without treatment, 2% I believe, almost half the dogs that showed symptoms.

Lyme is not nearly as serious in dogs as in people. Use Advantix II and skip the vaccine. Don't let the boogie man scare you.

The current vacine was actually taken off the market for people for causing arthritic symptoms.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

WasChampionFan said:


> Woof is 100% correct. The vaccine is worthless at best and dangerous at worst. 95% of dogs that are "infected" remain asymptomatic. 99.9999% of the rest are taken care of with medication. No matter if you vacinate or not an owner must take care of a dog if it becomes symptomatic. Most dogs show improvement within a few days. In some studies even dogs that exhibited early symptoms became asymptomatic in just a few days without treatment, 2% I believe, almost half the dogs that showed symptoms.
> 
> Lyme is not nearly as serious in dogs as in people. Use Advantix II and skip the vaccine. Don't let the boogie man scare you.
> 
> The current vacine was actually taken off the market for people for causing arthritic symptoms.


Just more scary claims with no evidence...


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> Just more scary claims with no evidence...


Sorry, what I said is 100% fact. This information is widely known. I am surprised it was so shocking to you. Do you research at the ACVIM. Dr. Richard Goldstein at Cornell is a very good friend of a friend.

Of the diplomats to the ACVIM, 39 do not recommend, 2 recommend and 4 may recommend vacination.

The ACVIM does not recommend treating asymptomatic dogs either.

There was one study in Labs that found about half of the "symptoms" were due to some other illness, not Lyme.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

WasChampionFan said:


> Sorry, what I said is 100% fact. This information is widely known. I am surprised it was so shocking to you. Do you research at the ACVIM. Dr. Richard Goldstein at Cornell is a very good friend of a friend.
> 
> Of the diplomats to the ACVIM, 39 do not recommend, 2 recommend and 4 may recommend vacination.
> 
> ...


OK...I spent five minutes looking for your source here. When you make claims, it's generally polite (and much more convincing) to link or otherwise reference the source rather than simply making the claims and saying "do your research." I have no idea why Dr. Goldstein's two degrees of separation from you is relevant, but you seem to referring to this paper from 2006. Did you read the whole paper? Nowhere does it say that that the vaccine is either dangerous or worthless. The strongest statement it has in support of your viewpoint is that they feel there needs to be further study on Lyme vaccines and potential side effects.

Did you read the whole paper? If so, you might have noticed that even this group of highly cautious, skeptical vets still agrees that the rate of adverse reactions is >2%.

Your "39" number comes from a pro/con table in the middle of the paper. It appears to be based on 45 vets (diplomates of ACVIM) who gave input on the consensus statement and your claim that "the ACVIM does not recommend treating asymptomatic dogs" isn't really accurate either, again in the context of the entire paper. They talk about the potential benefits of treating asymptomatic dogs with doxycycline vs. monitoring kidney function.

I cannot find the Lab study you're referencing. Perhaps you could link that? And the "symptoms" of what exactly?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Interesting that Goldstein wrote a 2008 article on immune mediated polyarthritis in which he discusses Lyme as a cause but somehow doesn't mention the vaccine as a potential cause. Hmm...perhaps it's because that reaction is reported so rarely that he can't be sure it's actually caused by the vaccine?


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

Please comes to grips that you are incorrect and do not patronize me. Please don't try to rationalize what more experienced people know. 

You are wrong.

39/45 experts on the subject do not recommend the vaccine. Only 2/45 recommend it. 95% of dogs that are infected and test postive never get the disease. 95% is another number that cannot be disputed. The vaccine is a waste and also very impractical because you should not vaccinate seropositive dogs anyway, and in some areas that can be 90% of dogs.

*"Dr. Ron Schultz, our leading veterinary vaccine researcher does not recommend the use of Lyme disease vaccines on his own dogs despite living in a Lyme endemic part of the country in Wisconsin. Dr. MP Littman Dip ACVIM of Penn School of Vet Med also does not recommend any Lyme vaccines. All of them recommend you keep the dogs free of ticks. Most of the tick control products we are recommending are also effective against mosquitoes and fleas two more vectors recently associated with spirochete transfer and vectors of blood borne diseases.*

*It would also be useful to list that none of the US Veterinary schools list the Lyme Vaccine on their recommended lists of vaccines for animals. The AVMA and AAHA also are not recommending Lyme vaccines as a part of core vaccination protocols. It is obvious to me that there are too many problems with all the Lyme vaccines on the market and with the outer surface antigens like OspA, there exists a larger problem with immunopathology, cross reactivity and molecular mimicry. Since the goal of vaccination is to prevent and thereby promote optimal patient and public health, none of which is achieved with the Lyme vaccine, it would be best to avoid the Lyme vaccination and associated propaganda."*

If you do more research you will find treating asymptomatic dogs is not accepted practice either.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

WasChampionFan said:


> Please comes to grips that you are incorrect and do not patronize me.


I apologize for patronizing you, but please realize that your statement here is far more patronizing than anything I wrote.



WasChampionFan said:


> Please don't try to rationalize what more experienced people know.


What makes you think you are more experienced than I am? Kind of a patronizing assumption, no? If you believe you're more experienced, please describe that experience so we can evaluate it.



WasChampionFan said:


> 39/45 experts on the subject do not recommend the vaccine. Only 2/45 recommend it.


False. 39/45 experts out of the 2000 members of one veterinary specialists' professional organization do not generally recommend it. The actual paper you're cherrypicking that one line from offers a much more complex, nuanced view of prevention and treatment.



WasChampionFan said:


> 95% of dogs that are infected and test postive never get the disease. 95% is another number that cannot be disputed. The vaccine is a waste and also very impractical because you should not vaccinate seropositive dogs anyway, and in some areas that can be 90% of dogs.


5% of dogs get serious, life threatening complications. That doesn't mean that 95% "never get the disease." Where are you pulling that 90% number from? I live at Lyme ground zero (literally near Lyme, CT), and I don't think any vet here would agree that 90% of dogs are seropositive. With the three dogs I've owned while living here, 0% have tested positive for Lyme, and they're in the woods several times a week. Now, perhaps that's because that they've been vaccinated for Lyme. After all, two have tested positive for anaplasma, another TBD.



WasChampionFan said:


> *"Dr. Ron Schultz, our leading veterinary vaccine researcher does not recommend the use of Lyme disease vaccines on his own dogs despite living in a Lyme endemic part of the country in Wisconsin. Dr. MP Littman Dip ACVIM of Penn School of Vet Med also does not recommend any Lyme vaccines. All of them recommend you keep the dogs free of ticks. Most of the tick control products we are recommending are also effective against mosquitoes and fleas two more vectors recently associated with spirochete transfer and vectors of blood borne diseases.
> *


*

Now you're quoting Dogs Naturally Magazine without sourcing it. You've moved away from serious veterinary research into pop science, again without citing accurately. The fact that they imply that fleas and mosquitos are responsible for spirochete infection makes the quote a bit laughable, if you want me to be completely honest.



WasChampionFan said:



It would also be useful to list that none of the US Veterinary schools list the Lyme Vaccine on their recommended lists of vaccines for animals. The AVMA and AAHA also are not recommending Lyme vaccines as a part of core vaccination protocols.

Click to expand...

Of course Lyme isn't a core vaccine! It's not endemic to the whole US. Why on earth would it be a core vacc? If you actually read those organizations' and schools' recommendations, you'll notice that most of them state that individual vets in Lyme-endemic areas should make Lyme part of their core vaccination protocols. 

For example ,UC Davis's recommendations state dogs in Northern California don't need it, but "If travel to endemic areas (ie the east coast) is anticipated, vaccination with the Lyme subunit or OspC/OspA-containing bivalent bacterin vaccine could be considered, followed by boosters at intervals in line with risk of exposure."

And University of Tennessee's vet school says "Dogs living in or traveling to Lyme endemic areas or areas where the risk of vector tick exposure is high should be vaccinated. Dogs that have tested positive for Lyme disease should be treated and then vaccinated to prevent re-infection as natural infection does not prevent re-infection."

The AAHA says the Lyme vaccine is "generally recommended only for use in dogs with a known risk of exposure, living in or visiting regions where the risk of vector tick exposure is considered to be high, or where disease is known to be endemic." Of course it's not core, but where Lyme is endemic, it's recommended.

I cannot find an AVMA paper on the organization's official stances. If you have one, please post it. Many other organizations list an AVMA chart that says essentially the same thing as the AAHA, though.



WasChampionFan said:



It is obvious to me that there are too many problems with all the Lyme vaccines on the market and with the outer surface antigens like OspA, there exists a larger problem with immunopathology, cross reactivity and molecular mimicry.

Click to expand...

Could you please explain what you mean by "cross reactivity" and "molecular mimicry" as they relate to the current canine Lyme vaccine? Otherwise you're just firing off semi-scientific terms as if they're real. Or you're just copying and pasting an anti-allopathic magazine without understanding the terms?

Also, how many Lyme vaccines do you think there are on the market, and which ones use OspA?

Again, I'm sorry I talked down to you, but please don't presume to talk down to me. My grasp of biology is as solid as anybody's.*


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