# Field question for the week



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> Is it better to train on short blinds with a variety of cover or longer blinds of all one cover, like mowed grass?


One is not "better" than the other. You need to do both. 

I have a 5 legged wagon wheel set up where each leg is only 25 yards, but each leg has some sort of obstacle, such as a canoe, stacked railroad ties, tall grass, branches lying on the ground, two chairs about 3' apart, etc.

I also run 450 yard blinds across a low cut pasture.

I also run blinds of varying lengths with an assortment of obstacles, at differing angles of approach.

And those are just the LAND blinds ....

FTGoldens


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

450 yards. I hope I'm able to juggle the binoculars and my whistle and casts at the same time...,


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Field trial blinds are an amazing thing to watch.

You bring up great ideas of putting intentional brush piles or logs or something in the way. Or maybe the chairs as a distraction. Hmmm, lots of great ideas! Thanks


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Alaska7133 said:


> Field trial blinds are an amazing thing to watch.
> 
> You bring up great ideas of putting intentional brush piles or logs or something in the way. Or maybe the chairs as a distraction. Hmmm, lots of great ideas! Thanks


the field trial blinds are fun to watch you also get to see a lot of different handling styles as well. 

and i agree with Ft golden but also depends on the level the dog is at. if it is a dog that has just come out of pattern blinds i would like to keep the blinds shorter because distance erodes control, where with a more experience dog i would stretch them out and get those minor corrections for cast refusals into cover. but also depends on the terrain and wind. there are fields in my area you can run 300yard blinds easy but there might be a strong cross wind or a side hill you have to negotiate. on land there are 4 things to think about when setting up a blind or even marks is wind, terrain (side hills, ditches, etc...) old marks, and cover.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

This weekend I set up a 48 yard blind for Rose past a dead tree laying on mowed grass and then into the bushes. Then set up a 70 yard blind to the right of the shooting block. Her memory bird on the double was at the left of it. Rose took two casts on the shorter blind and no casts on the longer blind. 

My feeling is that no cover blinds are to be used for building confidence in the dog to run a straight line longer and longer distances from the moment you say back.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I hardly ever run cold blinds. I normally do a walk out blind with Lucy. Dump a pile of bumpers and say dead bird. Sometimes I use an orange cone, sometimes just the bag the bumpers were in as a marker. Then I send her from a variety of points around the park to the pile. Since we are hoping to run SH next year, I sometimes do a distraction bumper on her way back with the bumper. Or I do a double after the blind or before it. I try to mix it up and she seems to be having fun. Then I try to reverse and do a simple 4 point wagonwheel. Then if she doesn't seem to turn the correct side on a back, I'll work some 3 handed casting just so she remembers what she's supposed to do. I never thought drills would be this much fun!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I MUCH prefer running long blinds with few factors especially for dogs early in their blind running career. 

Dogs do not know the "normal" distances for a field trial vs. hunt test vs. hunting or anything else. They only become familiar with the distances you typically train. They also have no idea how long the blind is going to be when you send them. Distance DOES erode control, but distance is all relative. If you train only on 100 yard blinds, then 100 yards is the glass ceiling after which you have problems. If you train up to 300 yard blinds, then 100 yards is nothing even to a beginning blind running dog.

The BIGGEST challenge in ANY blind is confidence. A dog with a lot of confidence can tackle any obstacle. Things that erode confidence are a obstacles that require lot of handling. In the beginning of a dog's career you want blinds that promote confidence. Long, open blinds with few factors are going to serve you very well. They learn to look to the horizon and run. There is room for error on casts so you don't have to nit pick and grind the dog down. 

Over time your dog will learn to do both. In the beginning, promote what is most important in blind running.
Coming off of pattern blinds with diversions, the first cold blinds my dogs see are 150+ yards in open fields, no factors no cover just dead bird - back and run!

Dogs learn to run good cold blinds by running a lot of cold blinds. Practice what you want to perpetuate.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Stacey don't be afraid of distance, I know that I prefer distance because it gives me more time to cast and I don't have to keep blowing whistles to keep them tight like I do with a very short blind with obstacles. And like Anney said, the more whistles the less confidence. 
Also, I do not like Pattern blinds with Katniss. I was doing them and working drills because I felt like if she wasn't lining blinds or refusing my casts then there was a problem and she wasn't ready for cold blinds. 
I went to watch some field trialers train one day and saw that they were just running the dog one time even if they made a ton of mistakes and I never knew to do that. So I started cold blinds. 
Once I started to do those the lightbulb went on with her. She figured it out that I was showing her where to go. Before she knew where to go and thought she could get there herself no matter what. It took only a week for her to clean up a ton of problems I was having with those pattern blinds. 
I have a feeling after meeting Lucy and all you've talked about her, that she probably thinks with those pattern blinds she knows how to get to them. This gives you more cast refusals. Cold blinds seemed to give me WAY less cast refusals with Katniss and therefore I could really train her on the concepts rather than fight her. I know your dog should do whatever you say no matter what kind of exercise you are running but sometimes its easier to show the dog another way rather than fight with the dog. 
IN this case, running cold blinds all the time with one or two bumpers maximum helped Katniss enormously. Now, I can go back to drills and she understands their point and is easier to train.
Just a thought.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Shelby -- you put in the time and taught each step of the flowchart progression to teach Katniss the skills she needed to run cold blinds -- all the collar conditioning (sit, pile, etc), single T, double T, pattern blinds, blind drills -- all leading up to a dog who was ready to run cold blinds. You put the time in on your pattern blind field and moved on when it was clear the dog got all she could out of pattern blinds and doing more wasn't going to make it better. That was exactly the scenario with Slater on pattern blinds -- he was happy to run them but he NEVER lined them. I moved on. The lightbulb really went on when we did cold blinds. I never went back to pattern blinds.
It is easy to get a dog who is only force fetched to return to a pile and teach them pattern blinds. That doesn't mean they are ready for cold blinds though. You really need to stick with the program and not skip steps, especially if you are training your first dog. It is sexy to say you're running cold blinds but if you've skipped steps, it is going to come back and bite you hard in the future.
And again, doing drills like pattern blinds might LOOK like doing real blinds to us, but it is not the same thing to the dog. Running to a known location is the polar opposite of doing a cold blind. Pattern blinds are a very brief step in the dog's career....too many or too much of it and they are dependent on running to that known location, and makes doing real blinds all the more difficult for him.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Anney,
I do consider a walk out blind and a pattern blind pretty much the same thing. Do you?

If they are the same thing, then why only run them for a short window in time? I think they are fun and I do think you can gain from them. I've heard other people running walk out blinds for the entire dog's life...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

If the dog has some notion of where the destination is, then it is basically the same idea. It's not a cold blind and isn't going to make your dog better at running cold blinds. It's fun because it's no pressure. The dog already knows it. There's no challenge. IMO pattern blinds or known blinds after that distinct phase during transition is basically just exercising your dog.

Yes, some people do run pattern blinds the dog's whole life. If it works for them, great.

I've never seen the need to, and it doesn't make sense to me, so I don't do that. Pattern blinds are a very distinct, short window of training, once the dog has gained what knowledge it can from the pattern blinds (handling at a distance in the field, no visible target, handling with marks in the picture) we move on and don't look back. At most I stay on pattern blinds for 2-3 weeks, that's it. My pattern blinds are 200 yards minimum. I'm a Lardy-ite and follow his recommendations to a "T."


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

One thing to add. Katniss loves a cold blind more because now she sees it as a hide and seek game!! She practically rolls her eyes if it's not a cold blind. She loves them way more than marking. She sits at the line and I say dead and her tail starts flagging in the dirt and occasionally she whines to be sent. Once Lucy figures out the game you won't turn back


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> I do consider a walk out blind and a pattern blind pretty much the same thing.
> 
> I think they are fun and I do think you can gain from them. I've heard other people running walk out blinds for the entire dog's life...


You're not alone in regard to the walk-out blinds. Although I very rarely do them, I'm familiar with a National level amateur [Labrador] trainer (i.e, the National Retriever Championship and the National Amateur Retriever Championship, not the national Specialty) who did ONLY walk-out blinds during the week of pre-National Am training. He did it for both land blinds and water blinds (hence, he didn't walk "the line" to the blinds). I don't know if he does it for all of his dogs, but he did it for that dog in preparation for that NARC. Of course, that dog was exceedingly well trained and highly accomplished (I believe that he was a finalist that year), yet he felt that walk-out blinds were best for that dog at that time. 
Hence, they may be appropriate for some or all of a particular dog's training career.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I've heard that walk out blinds add momentum. I learned that at a Bill Hillmann seminar earlier this year. The dog always knows there is a bumper or bird out there. So the dog is always excited to go. That's the theory. Lucy is always excited to run walk out blinds. She will break and I have to call her back. She often leaps when she leaves the line with a bark. I want to keep that momentum. So when I increase the distance or angle, and I get a dog that is slow or "unhappy", I simplify. Then she goes back to happy and I work on extending again. I want to keep that momentum up with Lucy. She gets easily bored. So if she's not interested she's not learning. If I want to get her attention, I'll do a few rounds of 3 handed casting, to bring her back to reality. Then she's usually ready to get back to work. Let's face it, 3 handed casting is pretty boring for a dog (at least I would find it boring if I were a dog). We are going very slowly. I don't know if we'll ever get to SH. She will be 4 years old before she ever runs senior. Which is pretty late for a dog that has been training for so long. 

I do keeping my e-collar use to only on the occasional whistle sit, if she's slow or doesn't stop. I keep the level of nick very low too.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

How long did hill man suggest you do these blinds? What signs did he tell you to look for to let you know when the dog is ready to move on? I guess I'm just worried you are stalling because you aren't moving forward. This is just based on my own experience. Katniss just wasn't moving forward and I thought it was because she wasn't getting it. Reality was she stalled from boredom among other things


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

There are a thousand ways to train a dog, and you have to do what makes sense to you and what helps you progress. If doing this makes sense to you and allows you to progress in your training then it's a great plan.
I've never done walk out blinds, never saw the value in it, so I don't do them.

I think it's really vital to someone training their first dog, that they settle on an established program and follow each step, don't skip steps and don't jump from program to program or wing it if they run into a temporary problem. If you follow a program there is ALWAYS help out there because lots of people have been through the same thing. You don't have to go it alone or re-invent the wheel. I am unfamiliar with Hillman's approach, not sure if he has a program to follow or just lots of good ideas to present at a seminar. It can be hard to connect the dots. My recommendation is Lardy and/or Rick Stawski's DVDs, they walk you through a step by step progression. (The same progression, but maybe one is able to communicate to you better than the other.)

Age of the dog has nothing to do with it. Fisher was 5 years old when I started to teach him to handle! But you have to train the dog, and you have to have a plan in place to progress. This can be a daunting task for a new trainer. But the help and guidance is out there waiting for you to get with the program. The jump from Junior to Senior is HUGE especially for a first time trainer. Anyone willing to take that challenge gets a big fat A+ in my book!


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> I've heard that walk out blinds add momentum. I learned that at a Bill Hillmann seminar earlier this year.


Not surprising ... the guy that I referred to above with the big-time National caliber dog was a Hillmann-ite (to borrow Anney's suffix).


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Hillmann thinks dogs should run walk out blinds their whole lives. He sees no reason to stop doing them...

I do have Lardy and Stawski DVDs and others. I think there is something to be learned from every one of them. Finding a system you like is hard to do. I don't like everything that Hillmann does either. But his style most fits mine.

Alaska is a tough place to test/trial. We have so few events and then we're frozen for so much of the year for training. Then having a bitch in heat EVERY summer is also difficult. 3 double header hunt test weekends in a season, and she'll be in heat for one of them. Anyway, Lucy is spayed now, so that isn't something that will be a challenge anymore.

Maybe Miss Lucy doesn't have it in her to learn blinds. Maybe it's beyond her brain capacity (or possibly mine). I'm not ready to give up yet!!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

We occasionally redo the pattern blinds. I personally do not see anything wrong in doing them every now and then. We are just in transition to cold blinds. I still use the stakes or ribbons; I actually find them helpful for myself. 
One time the group set up the blinds. A lady was going to put an orange ribbon by the blind. Well, by the time I went to get Rose and run her the wind blew the orange ribbon away. I thought the blind was on the left side of a tree, sent Rose there I thought she hit it, nope, it was on the right side of the tree so had to give her an over to the other side. haha that was a cold blind for both of us. 

I read somewhere that the dog's trust and confidence can be damaged if one jumps too quickly into cold blinds.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Alaska

Stacey, the best thing you can do is find someone to help you. DVD's don't show everything.

My own mentor is 79 years old and sick but he has been coming out to help me with blinds. I have made a lot of progress since he is helping me. 

PS All dogs are different. Thor is doing lining drills right now and learning them quicker than Buffy. I have a 3 legged pattern blind I run with Buffy. Thor may not need that much work on pattern blinds. Time will tell.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Alaska

You can also introduce distractions into your pattern blinds.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

gdgli said:


> Alaska
> 
> You can also introduce distractions into your pattern blinds.


Excellent point, George.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

George,
the winter training group starts back up next month once hunting season is over. It will go all winter until mid-May when test/trial season starts back up. Winter training group has people a lot more experienced than me. So hopefully we'll get a lot farther ahead.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Interesting thread.

If I remember correctly we used pattern blinds for a very brief time sandwiched between double T and cold blinds to transition to cold blinds. I haven't used them since. I can only remember using a walk out ( which I think would be a show me blind?) very early on to teach pictures in water blinds or maybe to get us out of a hole I dug during water blinds. Poor Winter she had to put up with being the first dog. 
I do have memory blinds that I still use and try to run my lining drill at least once every 10-14 days.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

There is a runway I like doing walk out blinds. It's gravel and grass with trails along side. I just measured it on google, it's 1660 yards long. It's about 65 yards wide. I walk it quite often with my dogs as part of our off leash long walks. I bring a bumper. I'll drop it at one end and walk for awhile, then send Lucy back for it. Then I drop it again and send her again. All different distances. I usually walk at a slight angle back and for so that she has to cross the runway and the trails at an angle. She finds this fun to do. She remembers every time where that bumper is. Being a nice long runway, I can do quite a few "blinds" like this on my walks. I'm going to guess they are between 100 and 200 yards. The runway is heavily used by moose, horses, bears, coyotes and geese. So lots of good smells and distractions. For Lucy and I it's fun. No pressure. No lining her up. Just turn around after we've walked for awhile and send her. 

I've had to switch to lunchtime training with our short days. So today I listened to what you all said and decided to stretch Lucy out. I took her to a different park. It's mowed and featureless. I measured on google and we did 100 to 125 yard walk out blinds. The mowed field is featureless. Lucy was quickly bored after 5 runs. So I threw some marks. For my walk outs, I carry a bag of bumpers with me. Lucy is off leash. I walk to a corner of the park, dump the bag of bumpers and say dead bird. I walked back to the far side of the mowed area and said dead bird and sent her. I walked around and sent her to the pile from various points in the park. She was fine. Maybe it is time to graduate to cold blinds. Her whistle sits are very nice. She doesn't always travel in a straight line though... Her double T isn't that perfect. Neither is her wagon wheel. Still a work in progress.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Personally I would not progress until the wagon wheel is improved. Are you doing white and orange bumpers in the wagon wheel where Lucy goes thru the two white bumpers to get the orange one?


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

No just 4 position wagon wheel with orange bumpers. It's hard for her to go past a bumper to get a different one. She's a bit of a head swinger.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Stacy, I know I sound like a broken record, but she's not ready for cold blinds if you haven't completed all the preliminary steps.

Single T
Double T
Pattern Blinds
Blind Drills
Pattern Blinds with Diversions

These are all the steps of transition. It prepares the dog for running cold blinds. What you've done are a lot of drills that strengthen some aspect of blind running (i.e. wagon wheel practices lining up and lining past distractions) but they do not teach a dog how to run a cold blind. 

You spend a lot of time and enjoy training your dog, so why not stick to a program and train those skills during the time you have available, rather than just a handful of drills that you've picked up here and there?

I know Lucy enjoys hunting. That's all you need. There's no reason why the two of you can't learn to run blinds, and follow an established, proven program to get you there. It's a recipe for success.

The only people I know who have skipped major steps in transition yet are still able to pass a Senior or Master test, have hard charging dogs who can take a ton of pressure. The dog has enormous desire which over-rides the wear and tear their handler dishes out in an effort to get them to understand how to run a blind. They muddle through, the dog gets a lot of heat, the handler gets frustrated, and their blinds really are never that great, just good enough to pass a test. Can't recommend that path to anyone!!!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Anney,
I agree with you. She is not ready for cold blinds. I though people were trying to say that she should be running cold blinds instead of walk out blinds. 

Lucy is not strong enough on double T. She's not strong enough on wagon wheel. She head swings too much on piles that are 100 yards or more out. We aren't there for cold blinds.

I used Lardy up through walking fetch. I switched after that to Hillmann because I liked how he does pile work for getting a dog to turn to the correct side. I have stuck with Hillmann since. For drills I use Hillmann and Voigt and Cassidy. I have Mitch White's book for drills also.


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