# Orijen vs Acana - sodium and thirst?



## LibertyME

How old is he? His more calm demeanor can be age related...
Have you physically measured out how much water he is actually drinking? (measure how much goes in the bowl at the beginning of the day and measure what is left at the end of the day?)


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## rhondas

I completely switched my 15 week old puppy to Acana Grain Free Grasslands ALS from Fromms Lamb & Rice Puppy about 2 weeks ago and I have not seen any difference in the amount of water drinking or demeanor. He's also getting some Acana Ranchlands.

I have a 4.5 year old who gets home cooked and either Orijins or Acana since he was a puppy and I have not any difference.

A puppy at 4.5 months does settle down a little bit though so that is what you might be seeing.

I agree with LibertyMe though to monitor his drinking etc. Each dog is different.


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## Beacon

Hi,

It's difficult as we have 3 dogs and 3 cats, all of whom drink from the same water bowl. However, the others don't drink very much at all, I'm adding around3/4 to a pint of water to his meals (was trying to flush out struvites), and best guess I'd estimate he's drinking about another 2 1/2 pints, so prob around 3.5/4 pints per day, which vet said is about double what he'd expect on dry food.

I think I'll try the Acana, as the 2 varieties are half the sodium. Some of the other varieties seem to have higher levels, or the levels of sodium are ok but the calcium is over 2%.

Thanks


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## Charliethree

I have fed both of those foods and really didn't see any difference in water intake. If you haven't take a close look at whatever other foods,if any, he is getting, training treats like some cheeses and hotdogs have a good amount of salt. I switched from Orijen (Regional Red) to Acana Ranchlands, due to changes in the Orijen formula, and have found it has worked as well as the Orijen, for my dogs.
Head shaking and ear scratching have always been the first sign of 'trouble' in my golden with food sensitivities, so it is possible that something in the new food is causing problems.


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## Beacon

Hi,

Thanks. Yes, I did wonder about the head shaking and ear scratching being an allergic reaction type thing. Not sure what he could be allergic to though, unless it can develop? The food he was on previously had chicken, so don't think it can be that as, although he's always scratched a bit (more since the food change to Orijen) that almost seemed like a stress relieving mechanism he had.....

Am I right in thinking lamb and fish are less likely to caujse a reaction? I've ordered samples of all the Acana foods and also a sample of the Fish4Dogs food as well.

Thanks
Karen


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## Ryley's Dad

I switched Ryley onto Acana Ranchlands (grain free) and Acana Pacifica (also grain free) about 3 months ago. We determined that he had developed a chicken alergy so we went to two types of food that contain no chicken whatsoever.

Needless to say he is doing wonderful. We feed him 2 cups of Ranchlands (beef, bison, lamb) and 1 cup of Pacifica (fish) per day. Because of the high caloric count of the Acana foods we went from 5 cups per day of his previous dog food to 3 cups. I am now spending 40% less on dog food. His poops are much smaller now, much firmer, and much darker and dryer.

He is also allergy free now. His coat has also improved significantly and he sheds less too. I haven't noticed that he drinks any more water while on Acana.


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## MyBentley

Don't know if there is any truth to this, but I have read that the manufacturer often puts more salt/sodium in high protein formulas to make the dogs thirstier and drink more water. The extra water is healthier because the liver has to work so much harder processing dry high protein kibble.

I,too, would suggest trying the Acana with less sodium. As far as the head and ear scratching, see if it continues on the Acana. If it does, the vitamin pre-mix, processing chemicals or botanicals might be the culprit; and maybe another brand might work better.


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## Beacon

thanks everyone. I'll see how he goes on with the Acana. For those who've experienced allergies, if he was/wasn't allergic how soon would I expect to see a reaction, or settling down of the scratching etc? I'm pretty sure it is an allergy thing actually, as he's today started biting round his bum and also a bit on his back feet. Can't actually see anything yet, but I guess this has only been going on for a few days.

Ryley's Dad, how old is Ryley? I notice they don't put puppy feeding guides on the Acana, so was unsure how much to feed him.

Would you guys still mix in gradually, or try to get him off the Orijen more quickly if it's causing problems?

Thanks
Karen


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## john martin

Im currently using Go Natural for my 2 dogs. But will be switching to Acana Puppy Large breed in a months time. Hope you continue your inputs


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## Claire's Friend

I had to switch Jordan from Orijen to Acana because she seems to have a fish allergy. Never noticed a difference in her water intake. There were times throughout the first year when I got concerned because I thought she was more lethargic , but I think they were just growth spurts and she was always fine within a couple of days.


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## puppydogs

(dealing with a separate sodium issue related to beach water).... If the food like Acana doesn't specify sodium on the bag, how do we find out? Is there added salt to the food? What is considered a high amount?


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## WasChampionFan

Could be a bunch of reasons why the pup is drinking more, including too much protein, sodium and high phosphorous.

Orijen's phosphorous levels are too high in my opinion for a puppy or young dog. They are very close to the AAFCO maximum.


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## Keragold

You could try GO! Duck or GO! Salmon formula by Petcurean if you are looking for a novel and single protein source. They are not grain free, but the grain sources are novel as well (Oats, quinoa and kamut). I've been feeding my guy with dietary sensitivities the salmon for a number of years now with great success.


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## oakleysmommy

When I switched to grain free they drank a lot more water than usual i was told its because with higher protein kibble their kidneys are working faster thus making them thirsty, it should subside though, this is what my breeder told me for what it's worth, I didn't feel comfortable with her reason why drinking so much water so I didn't go the grain free route.


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## puppydogs

Since I started on Acana Pacifica, I've been following threads on dogfoodadvisor. Someone claims that Canada does not have much of petfood regulation/safety. Anyone know anything about this?


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## WasChampionFan

puppydogs said:


> Since I started on Acana Pacifica, I've been following threads on dogfoodadvisor. Someone claims that Canada does not have much of petfood regulation/safety. Anyone know anything about this?


That is true. It is also true that many of the protein ingredients used in Canada are imported from the US. Most of the protein content in Orijen and Acana actually is US-Sourced.


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## dwiley

WasChampionFan said:


> That is true. It is also true that many of the protein ingredients used in Canada are imported from the US. Most of the protein content in Orijen and Acana actually is US-Sourced.


That is not what is stated on their website. Can you furnish any proof of this?


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## WasChampionFan

Of course, why would they admit that on the website when the whole marketing angle is to make you believe that everything is from small farmers. After the cat deaths in Australia seized documents confirmed that Griffin Industries in Kentucky supplies the chicken meal. There is also a signed letter from Bonnie at Champion floating around on the web confirming this.

There is also a press release about the source of the fish used. It is actually fish by-products that prior to being purchased by Champion were disposed of.

If you do a Google search on any of these points you will find it.


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## dwiley

WasChampionFan said:


> Of course, why would they admit that on the website when the whole marketing angle is to make you believe that everything is from small farmers. After the cat deaths in Australia seized documents confirmed that Griffin Industries in Kentucky supplies the chicken meal. There is also a signed letter from Bonnie at Champion floating around on the web confirming this.
> 
> There is also a press release about the source of the fish used. It is actually fish by-products that prior to being purchased by Champion were disposed of.
> 
> If you do a Google search on any of these points you will find it.


I wasn't able to find any credible sources. I am interested in hearing more about this, do you happen to have any links?


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## WasChampionFan

dwiley said:


> I wasn't able to find any credible sources. I am interested in hearing more about this, do you happen to have any links?


*"Originally Posted by roxy84 ***
_*i got some of this from champion via correspondence. while the email doesnt mention kentucky, i recall her saying KY was where they procured most of their chicken meal

Derek, 

Chicken meal is a good example. Although there are producers of chicken meal in Canada, none are capable of producing from chickens passed fit for human consumption and as such no Canadian chicken meal meets the European Union Pet Food Regulation 1774. At present, Canadian chicken meal is made with spent hens (from egg laying operations) as well as chickens that have died, but are not processed in a federally inspected facility, or were not passed as ‘fit for human consumption’ by the Government of Canada. 

So, while our focus is “fresh and regional” our primary objective is always to achieve the highest standard in nutrition, palatability and food safety. Until chicken meal from human grade chickens is available in Canada, Champion will source its chicken meal from one of 2 USA chicken processors, whose chickens and facility are USDA certified, and who have the appropriate European Union qualifications (EU 1774).

ORIJEN is made with special 'low ash' chicken meal. This ingredient is prepared by removing the bones before cooking, which creates a very high protein and low ash ingredient. The result is a moderated amount of calcium and phosphorus in the final ORIJEN kibble. There are definitely different qualities of meat meals out there, just as there are many different grades of meat for you to choose from at your local grocers. If you start with ingredients that are mostly muscle meat (as is the case with our meat meals), this results in a quality meal that is very high in protein. most of the content of our meals will be muscle meat.

**Best Regards,

Bonnie
Customer Care
Champion Petfoods LP
p 780.939.6888
f** 780.939.6858*"
_

_Scroll down on this link and read The Cat Mother. That is the woman in Australia that obtained the documents from the Aussie Government naming Griffin Industries._

_ALL US Ingredients - Was on Orijen, now what?_

_As for the fish by-products, the link to the supplier of the fish refuse is below:_

_Champion Petfoods and fish "waste" (by-products)? - YorkieTalk.com Forums - Yorkshire Terrier Community_


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## puppydogs

WasChampionFan said:


> *"Originally Posted by roxy84 ***
> _*i got some of this from champion via correspondence. while the email doesnt mention kentucky, i recall her saying KY was where they procured most of their chicken meal
> 
> Derek,
> 
> Chicken meal is a good example. Although there are producers of chicken meal in Canada, none are capable of producing from chickens passed fit for human consumption and as such no Canadian chicken meal meets the European Union Pet Food Regulation 1774. At present, Canadian chicken meal is made with spent hens (from egg laying operations) as well as chickens that have died, but are not processed in a federally inspected facility, or were not passed as ‘fit for human consumption’ by the Government of Canada.
> 
> So, while our focus is “fresh and regional” our primary objective is always to achieve the highest standard in nutrition, palatability and food safety. Until chicken meal from human grade chickens is available in Canada, Champion will source its chicken meal from one of 2 USA chicken processors, whose chickens and facility are USDA certified, and who have the appropriate European Union qualifications (EU 1774).
> 
> ORIJEN is made with special 'low ash' chicken meal. This ingredient is prepared by removing the bones before cooking, which creates a very high protein and low ash ingredient. The result is a moderated amount of calcium and phosphorus in the final ORIJEN kibble. There are definitely different qualities of meat meals out there, just as there are many different grades of meat for you to choose from at your local grocers. If you start with ingredients that are mostly muscle meat (as is the case with our meat meals), this results in a quality meal that is very high in protein. most of the content of our meals will be muscle meat.
> 
> **Best Regards,
> 
> Bonnie
> Customer Care
> Champion Petfoods LP
> p 780.939.6888
> f** 780.939.6858*"
> _
> 
> _Scroll down on this link and read The Cat Mother. That is the woman in Australia that obtained the documents from the Aussie Government naming Griffin Industries._
> 
> _ALL US Ingredients - Was on Orijen, now what?_
> 
> _As for the fish by-products, the link to the supplier of the fish refuse is below:_
> 
> _Champion Petfoods and fish "waste" (by-products)? - YorkieTalk.com Forums - Yorkshire Terrier Community_


YIKES! Too much legalese for me - does this mean instead of fresh ingredients they are using already dead and not safe for human consumption fish/meat (basically lies?!)> Sorry but I need a translation since I just bought a big bag of it :doh:

and do all US ingredient dog food exist (besides Fromm)?


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## puppydogs

One more thing I forgot I contacted Acana a few months ago (via Facebook). Did their process change/improve or is this the run around hiding the fact they use already deceased animals not fit for human consumption? sorry for being confused!




Wondering if you know how can we confirm there are no dead pets/roadkill in our dog's kibble?







October 23

7:23am
*Acana Dog and Cat Foods*


Thank you for contacting us with your question.
As an exporter, Champion Petfoods must meet all international pet food regulations, including those of the European Union which are the toughest in the world.
In order to export to the EU, the government of Canada (Canadian Food Inspection Agency) must certify not only our factory, but also our ingredients AND our ingredient suppliers. The standard they are required to verify is that our factory and foods contain only those animal ingredients that have been passed as fit for human consumption. All our meat ingredients can only be processed in facilities that are dedicated to the processing of human grade ingredients (this means that our rendering plants cannot have on their premises any part of any chicken turkey or fish that has not been passed as fit for human consumption by the Government of Canada). The same goes for the transport and warehousing of our ingredients - all must be passed by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency and all are audited on a quarterly basis.
What all of this means is that our meat meals are of an exacting and exclusive standard. There is no possibility of the 3Ds (dead, diseased, and dying animals), euthanized pets or any restaurant waste, and all is certified by the Government of Canada. All of our fresh meat ingredients are passed 'fit for human consumption' and delivered FRESH EACH DAY, so they're never frozen, preservative-free, and bursting with unprocessed, biologically appropriate proteins and fats to nourish dogs and cats completely.
There is more information about our suppliers at the following links: 
Orijen
Orijen
I hope that this information is helpful. Please feel free to write back if you have any further questions or concerns.


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## WasChampionFan

I don't believe Champion uses harmful ingredients, but the company's marketing pitch that it uses "regional Canadian ingredients" is false. Also, when it comes to fish the company makes a big deal about it coming from local fisherman but really its the skin, bones and guts from a big processor up there.

Fresh ingredients are all water but they look prominent on the label because they are allowed to list them by weight with the water content.

As for all US foods that use human grade ingredients, Dr. Tim's and Annamaet are great ones.

Fromm is ok if your stick with Gold or Classic. Those are good values.


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## puppydogs

Here's a reply from Acana after I voiced concerns from those forum posts. Still don't know what to believe when it comes to dog food companies!

_There is a lot of misinformation available and unfortunately much of the information that is posted on forums and chat sites is based on misguided information and frequently will involve personal opinion rather than fact._
_I have shared this information with you previously but want to reiterate that all of our meat meals are of an exacting and exclusive standard. All our meat ingredients can only be processed in facilities that are dedicated to the processing of human grade ingredients (this means that our rendering plants cannot have on their premises any part of any chicken turkey or fish that has not been passed as fit for human consumption by the Government of Canada)._
_Champion Petfoods receives FRESH Walleye, Lake Whitefish and Northern Pike from the Freshwater Fish Company daily. This link Orijen will take you to our website where you can find more information on this supplier, and our Freshwater Fish. Our ORIJEN diets feature up to 45% fresh meat or fish ingredients, and a minimum of 6 different FRESH meat ingredients all sourced from local trusted suppliers-ORIJEN is unmatched in the quantity, quality and variety of the Fresh meat and fish used in our diets. All of these ingredients including our fish have been passed as fit for human consumption by the CFIA and contain no by-products._
_I hope that with this information you can better judge fact from fiction when reading forums and blogs. Please do write back if your have any other questions or concerns._


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## WasChampionFan

Well I don't know what to tell you, the information about the fish by-products comes directly from the company that sells it to Champion. It is in plain english that they threw it away before Champion contracted to buy it. Maybe Champion should ask the fish company to explain it. 
This is the fish company's own words, read them carefully. The fish company calls the product "waste" and that it used to cost them money to "dispose" of it.

*"**We recently signed an exclusive arrangement with Alberta based*
*Champion Petfoods, whereby we sell all minced*
*by-products to them and they in turn buy all the product*
*we have to offer. We began working with Champion in 2005 when we*
*sent them samples of minced by-products for testing after*
*it was extracted from fish during the filleting process. Prior*
*to sending the product to Alberta, we had been paying to*
*have the waste trucked to a rendering facility in Winnipeg.*
*After the samples were tested by Champion, a product was*
*developed that met their high quality specifications.*
*This business brings in several hundred thousand dollars*
*in revenue for a product that previously cost us money to*
*dispose of – and we’re thrilled to be building on a relationship*​*that dates back more than five years."*


As for the chicken meal, you notice that they didn't dispute that it comes from the US, they just said it was human grade. Griffin Industries is named in official government documents.

How could it be personal opinion, the company's own person wrote the letter saying the chicken comes from the US.

Duh.


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