# Icewind Goldens



## Engine#934 (Mar 31, 2017)

Looking for a breeder is somewhat overwhelming, frustrating, and very challenging. After loosing our last golden to Hemangiosarcoma we are very cautious.. I have come across a few breeers but there's always something that makes me question them. Does anyone know of or have any idea if Icewind Goldens are reputable. Any and all help, guidance, and recommendations are greatly appreciated.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Icewind out of NJ? If so, this would not be the breeder for me. $4500 for an underaged breeding and lack of appropriate clearances as recommended by the GRCA despite the ad on AKC marketplace stating "ALL parents have their OFA & DNA Clearances done"

Sire: Tramin Star's Blossom AKC DNA #V772568 (SR89623201) Born 4 May 15, just turned 2, has outdated eye clearance and practitioner heart, no hips/elbows
Dam: Fantasy Fly Geneve AKC DNA #V793034 (SR95345601) Born 21 Aug 15, has 2 practitioner cardiac exams--not old enough for hips/elbows, no eyes listed.

I do believe there are at least 3 happy puppy buyers on this forum that have used Icewind. It's your call on what you define as "reputable" but in this case this litter is not in line with the recommendations set forth by the GRCA.


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## Engine#934 (Mar 31, 2017)

Thank you for your reply and the research so early in the morning here on the east coast.. would you have any recommendations for breeders that offer the English / European Cream Goldens.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Engine#934 said:


> Thank you for your reply and the research so early in the morning here on the east coast.. would you have any recommendations for breeders that offer the English / European Cream Goldens.


That is going to be your problem if you are looking for this type- because the great majority who advertise breeding the EC are on the cash flow bandwagon. Most of the breeding animals are imported not from England but from Eastern European countries, and you can bet that breeders there are not exporting their best dogs to the US. If there are any verificiations of conformation done, typically it is through the pay for title international shows- but realize that these shows are truly a pay for title thing- it takes no competition, every dog there can leave there with an international CH. 
The color of a dog is cosmetic. None of the other rhetoric is true- they are not calmer, less likely to get cancer, etc. They ARE more likely to have icthyosis, though- which can be a problem or can be a fleeting dandruff. 

I'd suggest you look into Canadian breeders of light colored dogs. THere are many there whose stock truly comes from England, but you won't find them advertising English Creme. Or take a Euro trip yourself, and get a nice puppy along with your vacation- which will cost you about the same as buying a less than safe bet here. OR find a breeder of Golden Retrievers you feel safe with and wait on a light colored puppy to bring home.


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## Engine#934 (Mar 31, 2017)

Thank you both for your feedback!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

What about Starz in Colorado--blending in European lines and doing recommended health clearances and her dogs are out there competing in a variety of venues

If she doesn't have pups or plans in the near future, ask about her boys if they're siring any upcoming litters. You might also want to chat w/ Cindy at Lycinan in Maryland--again not breeding for color but has folded in European lines into her breedings--clearances in place, temperament, structure, breed standard.


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## Engine#934 (Mar 31, 2017)

Thank you I will look at them. I appreciate the help.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

If you are willing to come to Ontario. You could try,

Conquerer (although he doesn't specifically breed light coloured goldens)
Conquerer Golden Retrievers

Goldnote 
https://goldenretrieversontario.com/

Regal
Regal Goldens | British Type Golden Retriever | Golden Retrievers | English Style Golden Retrievers | Puppies

Dreamkeeper
Dreamkeeper Goldens - Home of Exquisite English-style Golden Retrievers


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Holy cow are those puppies over priced! I went to Italy to pick up a show prospect last year and that price is probably the same or more than I paid for the entire trip (purchase of puppy, flight and a 6 day vacation in Italy)! My Italian girl came from great show stock with full certifications for their country. 

You should be able to find puppies from well respected breeders whose dogs have generations of full heath certifications and actual competition titles for the 2000-2500 range. Based on the value they are offering, I would expect to pay $1500 max (that is still not a deal) with the lack of accomplishments and missing/deficient health certifications. 

You need to decide if you are comfortable paying 3 times or more what the value of this breeder's program should command just because the dogs a light.

I agree if $4500 is doable for you take a trip to Canada or Europe to get a nice quality dog.


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## davmar77 (May 5, 2017)

we just got our golden pup last week from a great breeder in fort ann, ny, which is a bit past lake george. the guy who runs it all really knows his stuff. we got an american/english mix. we got his name from another breeder closer to us who had nothing available. she recommended him highly. if you get in touch tell him dave & maria from clifton park told you about him. i don't think he has any pups available now but it's worth a call just to be sure.

Supergoldens don graves


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Bugatti sire of next litter for Supergoldens- has half sib who didn't pass elbows and at least one offspring who didn't pass elbows. Brooklyn's dam did not pass elbows either, and her cardiac clearance is inadequate. 
She has 5 half sibs on OFA, and none have final hips/elbows, one is rated moderately dysplastic. 

The guy may be able to talk like he knows his stuff, but he even lists sire and dam backwards (pet peeve of mine as is saying a puppy is 'out of' a stud dog) and I actually don't see any of his girls who have passed elbows. I would steer clear myself. There are breeders out there who do a good job, admittedly the EC thing makes it hard to find good breeders with that type, but the point is that the dogs they are breeding from are not held to the same standard non-EC dogs are held to- which is passing clearances and correct conformation. When we get less than the best from the eastern euro breeders in the US, naturally we are going to get less than the best in the offspring...and when someone is selling puppies based only on coat color- it's a problem for the breed. Coat color is cosmetic.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I second the thoughts of LJack (I too would make a trip of it) and also the breeder recommendations of Sheets SM and Millie's Mom- I don't know Regal or GoldNote but the other two she mentions are usually good to go... so there are 4 names, none local to you but far better bets in terms of health and conformation. I wouldn't mention coat color in first inquiries, for most of us it is a burr in the shoe, since we know the ones on the bandwagon are a rip off hurting our precious breed...


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## davmar77 (May 5, 2017)

I asked my wife about the hips elbows pass and she said it was included in the paperwork he gave us.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

davmar77 said:


> we just got our golden pup last week from a great breeder in fort ann, ny, which is a bit past lake george. the guy who runs it all really knows his stuff. *we got an american/english mix.....*.
> 
> Supergoldens don graves


Big no. The current litter on this site "Bughatti x Brooklyn" doesn't have complete clearances behind it. The fact that Brooklyn doesn't have an elbow clearance is highly suspect. In fact, Brooklyn has a half sibling "Frosty Paw Moosey Moo" (I'm not making this up) who is actually sired by Bughatti and has produced puppies with joint issues, including failed elbows. I would be interested in the breeder's explanation of choosing to breed Brooklyn to Bughatti based on those joint issues in being produced in just one litter. Why double up on those genes? To make money?

Understand that this breeder makes a big deal about 'championship lines' but doesn't bother showing their own dogs in any venue and claims to emphasize health but is breeding litters with incomplete clearances. Not very ethical. 

There is no such thing as an "american/engish" mix. They are all Golden Retrievers. The breed originated in the U.K. and people selling them with an emphasis on the dogs being either "American" or "English" are using those terms as a marketing ploy to excuse scamming unsuspecting customers out of more money. 

This breeder has been discussed other times on this forum, you can check the search feature. http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...er-breeder-puppy/448977-breeders-near-ny.html


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

davmar77 said:


> I asked my wife about the hips elbows pass and she said it was included in the paperwork he gave us.


See, this is a good example of breeders skirting the truth. 
There is NO option of not listing on OFA if they are done. So if they are not on OFA, they are not done. If you scan them in here, we'll be able to show you where it was altered 10:1....
but whether you do or don't, if it isn't on OFA it isn't complete. I'd guess either they altered someone else's paperwork, or they showed you a prelim from before they failed finals or they altered someone else's prelim or just told your wife it was hips and elbows but really isn't. I'm sorry.
Here is Angie's OFA page - as you can see, there are no hips or elbows listed. While PH does hips, no one else in the US does elbows. http://www.ofa.org/display.html?appnum=1639695#animal She also has a full sibling who failed elbows. 
I don't know who Nico is, he is not on their site but if you post the reg name, someone can look him up. I was talking about the upcoming litter in previous posts but the last litter was out of Angie- and she is the daughter of Bugatti
the sire of the upcoming litter...and if you already have your puppy, she is the dam of your puppy.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

davmar77, you might want to consider pet insurance on your puppy. https://www.caninejournal.com/pet-insurance-reviews/ (If I were you, I would be getting it)

It's not terribly expensive when you get it on a young puppy and it's important to get it BEFORE any signs of an issue. If there is one mention in your dog's records of a problem with lameness in a joint etc. it would be considered a pre-existing condition. Most of the top rated insurance plans for pets will pay for itself and cover some general things, it's really not a bad way to go and if your puppy needs surgery for repair of an elbow or hip in the future (approx $3,000 per joint) you would be glad you had it.


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## SunGold (Feb 27, 2007)

I believe my friend Pam has some litters planned: www.kernowgoldens.com


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

SunGold said:


> I believe my friend Pam has some litters planned: www.kernowgoldens.com


That's what I love to see! LOTS of CHIC lit up in purple on OFA.
So- an EC type breeder in the US doing proper clearances... yay!


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Prism Goldens said:


> That's what I love to see! LOTS of CHIC lit up in purple on OFA.
> So- an EC type breeder in the US doing proper clearances... yay!


I love seeing the breeder talking about the variety of hobbies she pursues with her dogs, a little bit of everything, her dogs aren't just sitting at home talking about their great temperaments, they're out there in the world proving it. And not a single word I could find about "world champion bloodlines" and no where did I see anything about color or "English Cream". Not puppy farming litter after litter and no mention of their high tech facilities. Huge thank you to Sungold for providing such a nice possibility. Obviously it's always important to verify clearances, talk to a breeder about how the puppies are raised and socialized etc. but I sure do like the attitude and priorities they put out on their website.

Prism: For the purpose of education, CHIC doesn't mean the dog passed everything, so it's still important to look at them - right? CHIC is what you want to see because it means the breeder has verified clearances in a central data bank - it's a good thing for the breed and for people making decisions in the future. Is that how you would explain that Robin? (Big thank you to Prism for the time she devotes here to educating all of us  )


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

nolefan;7096785
Prism: For the purpose of education said:


> yes that is right. Dogs can fail all of it and still have a CHIC notation. I second the thank you to Sungold, it is a fabulous referral and I hope the OP contacts her.
> PS my time is a reflection of how much is on my hands taking care of an elder who forgets he is an elder...I am so excited, I have a weekend off that duty and will be at a dog show the entire time off father duty lol...


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Prism Goldens said:


> yes that is right. Dogs can fail all of it and still have a CHIC notation. I second the thank you to Sungold, it is a fabulous referral and I hope the OP contacts her.
> PS my time is a reflection of how much is on my hands taking care of an elder who forgets he is an elder...I am so excited, I have a weekend off that duty and will be at a dog show the entire time off father duty lol...


Hope you have a wonderful time at the show you're attending and get to see lots of friends - my hat is off to you, being a caregiver to an older relative is not an easy commitment to honor. I admire those of you who do it.


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## Engine#934 (Mar 31, 2017)

To all that responded Thank you and i appreciate your knowledge and information.. I wll continue my search. I am not so much hung up on getting or trveling to Eurpoe for an English European Retriever already having 4 wonderful American Goldens. It was jsut a question and an inquiry.... Thank you


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## mrsb28wolf (Oct 31, 2017)

I am new here and have looked at dozens of English golden breeders within a 8 hour driving range of Eastern PA. That being said, I am having a hard time determining what price point I should be looking at. Many are within the $2000-$2800 range but some seem to be missing proper clearances - and the ones that are approved on the englishgoldens dot net/breeders are above the $3000 range (and come with proper clearances) Icewind is less than an hour from me and they have three litters coming in December and they are charging $5000-$6000 a puppy!! I'm just at a loss trying to find a pricepoint. $2000 would be the most doable for our family although I dont mind a little more if we love the breeder.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

The problem (as I see it) with the ECGR type is it has become a cash crop and anyone can import bitches -even in whelp- from Eastern Europe and start up a "business"... with no breed knowledge, no sense of good breeding practices. This is much more prevalent in the EC type dogs because they are easy to market. No difference between them and the basic backyard bred dog except coat color and slick website. 
It's completely crazy when you can get a non-white coat color Golden (and there is lately a suggestion that many of these very white dogs are actually DNAing as part _____? I can't remember the breed....maybe someone else saw those results and can fill in the blank) who is very light in color for $2k-$2500 with a CH pedigree, all clearances in place. The whole 'healthier' thing is completely unfounded and not based on any serious study but instead two non-related surveys that did not account for origin. There is not a $5-6k value on any puppy Icewind has. Really.


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## grand illusion (Nov 17, 2017)

Just to add to what folks have already said: I adopted a puppy from Don Graves last May (he insisted I take it at 7 weeks, which is TOO EARLY); pup came with roundworm. But the big problem is elbow dysplasia -- both elbows. He began limping at about 5-6 months, was on painkillers for a while, but finally I felt arthroscopic surgery was advisable to remove loose bone fragments. Recovery period is very burdensome (basically: no exercise for 6 weeks!) and ultimately it probably won't cure the problem since the elbow joints are genetically defective. Don obviously knows all this and continues to breed defective pups. I wrote to him advising him of it but he didn't even bother to reply!


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## grand illusion (Nov 17, 2017)

I adopted a puppy from Don Graves last May - guess I should have done more research. He began limping at about 5-6 months, was on painkillers for a while, but finally I felt arthroscopic surgery was advisable to remove loose bone fragments from both elbows. Recovery period is very burdensome (basically: no exercise for 6 weeks!) and ultimately it probably won't cure the problem since the elbow joints are genetically defective. Don obviously knows all this and continues to breed defective pups. I wrote to him advising him of it but he didn't even bother to reply!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Don Graves is ICewind? to keep from having to re-read the whole thread....?thanks for adding to the information on the breeding program he has, and I am so so sorry about your puppy.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Prism Goldens said:


> Don Graves is ICewind? to keep from having to re-read the whole thread....?thanks for adding to the information on the breeding program he has, and I am so so sorry about your puppy.


No, Don Graves is Supergoldens--another breeder that was recommended in this thread after seeing that the breeder referenced by the OP routinely breeds underaged w/ incomplete clearances against the recommendation of the GRCA. Based on numerous other posts regarding Don, he doesn't do elbows which is a shame.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

OR the dogs do not pass elbows which would account for them not being listed on OFA.
It is so heritable. And just pitiful to create puppies destined to have to endure pain. Hardly SUPER goldens when they are limping. It's one thing to get an out of the blue elbow fail with generations behind of passes but entirely another to be so reckless as to either breed animals with failed elbows or not check them at all.


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## djg2121 (Nov 22, 2015)

grand illusion said:


> I adopted a puppy from Don Graves last May - guess I should have done more research. He began limping at about 5-6 months, was on painkillers for a while, but finally I felt arthroscopic surgery was advisable to remove loose bone fragments from both elbows. Recovery period is very burdensome (basically: no exercise for 6 weeks!) and ultimately it probably won't cure the problem since the elbow joints are genetically defective. Don obviously knows all this and continues to breed defective pups. I wrote to him advising him of it but he didn't even bother to reply!




Dysplasia in essence means laxness in the joint, and it can be genetic and/or caused or aggravated by environmental factors. My understanding, based on discussions with a family member who has practiced veterinary medicine for a very, very long time, is that it can at times be caused by trauma to the joint and damage to the bones and tendons. Wouldn’t the presence of bone chips suggest that your puppy’s issues resulted at least in part from trauma? Maybe he was allowed to jump off a bed or furniture, or out of a car, before his bones and joints were sufficiently developed? I don’t let my puppies jump off anything until they are close to being full size, and close to a year old, specifically to avoid these types of bone and joint issues.

BTW, I’ve had six different Goldens over the years from various breeders who are, or were, highly respected. I have a puppy now from Don Graves, and the puppy is great and perfectly healthy in all respects. I’m not showing my dog, and health and longevity were my primary concerns when I was looking for a breeder and a new puppy.


On edit: http://vetsportsmedicine.com/includes/storage/brio/files/191/jump-down.pdf

https://www.purinaproclub.com/resou...splasia-are-common-problems-in-sporting-dogs/

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Here is my thought on it- yes, puppies can injure themselves, absolutely. But at what point, when the breeder negligently does not check their breeding stock for ED, do we begin to believe that perhaps the inclination to develop ED from injury (and there are several types, what I imagine the posted mentioning fragments meant was FCP) comes part and parcel with ED because the bones and joints are not proper due to genetics? I know my own dogs slam themselves against the pool edge and if there was any propensity to fracture they would have fractured elbows. If ED comes because a normal jump off the bed or deck or whatever wasn't prevented, is that really the fault of the jump? Dogs should be able to jump. Not being able to makes me think there is something wrong there that resulted in an injury that would not have happened if the dog's structure was correct in the first place. No matter what, not doing elbow clearances is irresponsible.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

djg2121 said:


> Dysplasia in essence means laxness in the joint, and it can be genetic and/or caused or aggravated by environmental factors. My understanding, based on discussions with a family member who has practiced veterinary medicine for a very, very long time, is that it can at times be caused by trauma to the joint and damage to the bones and tendons. Wouldn’t the presence of bone chips suggest that your puppy’s issues resulted at least in part from trauma? Maybe he was allowed to jump off a bed or furniture, or out of a car, before his bones and joints were sufficiently developed? I don’t let my puppies jump off anything until they are close to being full size, and close to a year old, specifically to avoid these types of bone and joint issues.
> 
> BTW, I’ve had six different Goldens over the years from various breeders who are, or were, highly respected. I have a puppy now from Don Graves, and the puppy is great and perfectly healthy in all respects. I’m not showing my dog, and health and longevity were my primary concerns when I was looking for a breeder and a new puppy.
> 
> ...


And btw- laxness (subluxation) is one kind of dysplasia- but does NOT account for all dysplasia... it is most often associated with hip dysplasia not ED. ED is a term that covers 4 different conditions: ununited anconeal process (UAP), fragmented coronoid process (FCP), osteochrondrosis dissecans (OCD) and elbow incongruency. NONE of those are really related to subluxation as you state.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Elbow dysplasia is not just laxness in the joint.


"What is Dog Elbow Dysplasia
*Canine elbow dysplasia is a collective term that is used to refer to a group of congenital diseases in the dog’s elbow, characterized by bone or cartilage damage.*

Fragmented Coronoid Process (FCP)
This is the most common form of dog elbow dysplasia.
In this disease, a fragment of bone and cartilage of the bone ulna is broken off. This fragment may be small or large, and may stay in place or move about. Sometimes other joint problem such as OCD may also present.

The cause of fragmented coronoid process is unknown, but it is commonly believed that FCP can be caused by abnormal differences in growth rates between the radius and the ulna."

https://www.dogzhealth.com/dog-elbow-dysplasia/


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## djg2121 (Nov 22, 2015)

mylissyk said:


> Elbow dysplasia is not just laxness in the joint.
> 
> 
> "What is Dog Elbow Dysplasia
> ...




You guys are right, but also are ignoring the language indicating that it can be aggravated by trauma. that’s why is so common in sporting dogs that are very active.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

So, you do know subluxation has zero to do with elbows... and here's my thing- sure, try to be sensible w dogs and don't jump puppies their proper adult size agility jumps... BUT if jumping alone or big activity did ED more dogs would have it. What we DO know is no elbow clearances will make many more ED cases. I think if a dog's structure is correct and they are grown normally, a normal elbow will withstand normal amounts of exercise, stairs, jumping. I'm not ignoring anything- but your family member who led you to blame 'laxity' is wrong. A good practitioner will consider that some genes MAKE activity dangerous. And no one knows jumping causes ED. What we DO know is no elbow clearances isn't smart, ethical or considerate and caring towards the produce or the families who buy them. It's irresponsible. No defense there. Just is.


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