# So what's wrong with bribery?



## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Okay, this isn't about a Golden, it's about my BC mix, but it is about training! 

I was just out working with Alex, just the two of us. He's a rescue--a typical unsocialized tie-out dog from a high kill shelter down in Kentucky we've now had for four years. He's very sweet but we've had to do a lot of work over the years on building his confidence and how to greet strangers, as he'd either jump up if he liked the looks of the human or flatten down with his ears back if he got nervous.

So we were out doing some reminder training work...which includes a clicker and intermittent treats. We ran into several neighbors along the way, and both times one of the men (the first knows zero about dogs, the second has a dog who is hardly a model of perfect behavior, despite that e-collar she wears :yuck said, watching me reward my dog for sitting perfectly at my feet, "Oh, you're bribing him..." very dismissively. My response to both was, "Heck yes!!" 

But it bugged me a little bit to hear it twice in a row, I guess. I shouldn't let stuff like this get to me--I know my dogs, I know what works with my dogs, and did I mention Alex was sitting perfectly at my feet at the time? And that he hadn't even tried to jump on anyone?

Do any of you hear this from people?


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

My problem with my Brooks is he obeys commands like lightening if he sees/smells I have a treat.
If I dont have a treat, he ignores my command....


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## Aleksandrina (May 27, 2014)

As you said, the first neighbor knows nothing about dogs. So why listen to him? 
The second one is probably jealous or irritated that he can't train his dog properly. So that's why he made that comment. 

Ignore people's negativity and do what works for you and Alex.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Don't fix what is not broken!!! If it works for you and your dog that is all that matters. A rescue with issues is not the typical dog and you cannot compare his training to a dog you raised from puppyhood.

As far as treat training, I wean off treats by the time a pup is doing well with their obedience at about 4 - 6 months. The problem with treats is that the dog may become treat dependent and refuse to obey known commands if there is not a treat in sight. It also can lead to a dog that decides the treat in sight is not worth obeying the command. When possible I move to my approval and praise to be the reward.

Tell your neighbor to figure out how to train his own dog first and then he can offer his advise!


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Thanks, everyone. I think I just got my feelings hurt a bit, which is silly...I know how far my boy has come and I was really proud of him for how well he behaved in both situations and to have him (or me) criticized for that really good behavior just stung...for no good reason.

I guess I view a "bribe" as luring a dog into a behavior versus a reward for doing it right on command. He doesn't paw at me or act out trying to get the treat.

Both times he had gone through an initial, short burst of anxiety/excitement when he first saw the neighbors but then settled right down at my "easy" command and actually ended up lying at my feet while the e-collar guy yammered at me for a while as his poor dog kept trying new behaviors...whenever she did get it "right," he ignored it, because, you know, she should be doing that anyway, and when she didn't, he was verbally nasty to her. 

I ended up praising his dog, FOR HIM. Poor girl. At one point, she even rolled on her back and his response to her was, "Oh great, now you'll shake all that dirt off into the house the second we get back."

The more I think about this, the dumber I feel for letting him get to me!


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## Aleksandrina (May 27, 2014)

It sounds like this neighbor of yours doesn't even like having a dog... :scratchch

Oh, well, don't let people like that bother you. A "bribe" (when used to train our precious dogs) is an inducement, a way to persuade someone (in this case Alex) to act in a way that you want him to. And that's exactly what dog training is for. 

You need an aid as a motivator - food, tasty treats, toys, play time, attention, praise... anything that would get your dog to behave in a certain manner. If this person doesn't understand that, don't let it get to you.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A lot of people don't understand the effective use of food in training. In our classes and written material, we distinguish between lures (getting a dog to volunteer a position by following food), bribes (showing a dog food and then asking for a behavior), and rewards (producing treats and other rewarding things in response to desired behavior), and we try to encourage people to lure sparingly and _never_ bribe. We also try to fade any luring really fast and then get people to start fading food rewards as soon as behaviors start getting consistent. And we also try to get food-dependent handlers to bulk up their other kinds of rewards (play, praise, toys, etc.).

So what you were doing, by my definition, is rewarding, not bribing.

If your nosy neighbor has an e-collar on his misbehaving dog just to go out and about, I hardly think that person is really standing on firm ground when it comes to giving unsolicited advice...



Leslie B said:


> The problem with treats is that the dog may become treat dependent and refuse to obey known commands if there is not a treat in sight. It also can lead to a dog that decides the treat in sight is not worth obeying the command. When possible I move to my approval and praise to be the reward.


This is a real problem. Lots of people accidentally train their dogs only to behave when a treat is visible, and that's a really unfortunate misuse of food-based rewards. Aside from some limited luring, you really want to be keeping your food well hidden until you produce it as part of the reward for desired behavior

In my experience, if the handler is careful to avoid bribing and fades treats to the point that they're truly sporadic (rather than nonexistent), you don't end up with the situation you describe. I think you can use food on and off with a dog through his whole life to teach new behaviors and/or reinforce existing ones, so you don't have to ditch them entirely in order to avoid the problems you describe. For example, our dogs have very reliable recall behavior at 5 and 6 years old, but I'll still try to remember treats on hikes once in a blue moon so I can suddenly produce them in response to a successful recall.

In fact, we were having lunch at a little restaurant on the water just today with our two dogs and my mom's puppy, and we simply gave a treat and some quiet praise whenever one of the dogs was settling down nicely. It's a great way to teach the dog to volunteer that behavior more and more.


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