# Thyroid



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Hi BJ,
who read the thyroid results? Have you sent them to Dr. Jean Dodds? Goldens need to be on the higher side of normal, and a lot of vets will keep them on the lower side of normal, which is not correct for our breed.
Yes, there are huge problems from oversupplementing the thyroid, especially high blood pressure which leads to permanent kidney damage. But they can take her blood pressure and be sure it's normal on the higher dose. 
I'd ask my vet to submit it to Dr. Jean Dodds at Hemopet for her opinion on what the correct level should be for your dog specifically, not a generic "one size fits all" value.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Hi BJ,
> who read the thyroid results? Have you sent them to Dr. Jean Dodds? Goldens need to be on the higher side of normal, and a lot of vets will keep them on the lower side of normal, which is not correct for our breed.
> Yes, there are huge problems from oversupplementing the thyroid, especially high blood pressure which leads to permanent kidney damage. But they can take her blood pressure and be sure it's normal on the higher dose.
> I'd ask my vet to submit it to Dr. Jean Dodds at Hemopet for her opinion on what the correct level should be for your dog specifically, not a generic "one size fits all" value.


That's exactly what they're using is a "one size fits all" value. I didn't know that goldens should be on the higher side of normal. I'm just soooo frustrated! Thanks for the response. BJ


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

I'd cut her food by another half cup and see what happens. If she's actively training she's probably getting a ration or two of treats in addition to the kibble you're feeding her. FWIW, when my guys are on kibble (one intact, one neutered - both VERY active dogs) eat less than a cup of food a day....One is hypothyroid - both are what most pet people would consider underweight - at 24.5"/63lbs and 23.5"/65lbs.

I'd also look at where the levels are - low normal is not optimal for most goldens - so you might need to adjust her dosing again with that in mind. 

Erica


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

It is so hard to lose that weight. My mom's dog, Domino, lost it by adding canned food. 3/4 cup wellness weight loss kibble, and then a Newmans Own can or a 1/2 Canidae can each meal. She did lose.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Yes, low normal in a golden is actually LOW and needs to be treated to get into a more acceptable range. Here is Dr Dodds site.... you'll be able to get alot of info and learn how to get the blood work done thru her or at the very least have her give a consult. http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/HEMOPET.HTM She really is THE expert when it comes to hematology. Please keep is posted.
I would have a hard time cutting food much more than 1 3/4 cups daily.... I'd be afraid they wouldn't be getting the proper nutrients for health.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I agree totally with not cutting her food any more. Possibly changing it, but not cutting it.
What is she eating?
Dogs (and people) need a minimum of protein every day or their body will metabolize its own muscle mass in order to supply protein to the vital organs and brain. If they don't get enough protein, they start to lose muscle mass, but unfortunately, the only thing that burns calories is muscle, so they need fewer and fewer calories during the day as their muscle mass gets smaller. So they get into a downward spiral of eating less and still not losing weight. Sound familiar?
Dogs need 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight per day. That's the minimum. Now she's probably got about 20 extra pounds on her, so you can subtract that from her protein requirements; fat doesn't need to burn protein in a day.
The following is a rough calculation, if you want an exact you can call the dog food company and ask to talk to their veterinary nutritionist, they can tell you exactly how much protein is metabolized from their food. If they can't or won't tell you, I'd be switching food companies real fast.
Assume she should weigh about 70 pounds (using that because it's an easy number and my calculator isn't nearby). She needs 70 grams of protein per day.
Look at the protein content in your food. The good diet foods have between 25-30% protein, closer to 30 is better. Let's say your food has 25% protein. Weigh how much food you're giving her per day, in grams. (Luckily your country even uses that measurement, unlike ours where we also have to convert from ounces to grams, lol). You're probably only giving her about 200 grams of food per day total. So the protein in that is 25% of 200 grams, or 50 grams of protein. To make matters worse, only about 80% of that protein is useable to the dog (that's an average across the industry, some are more, some less) so she's REALLY only getting 80% of 50 grams, or about 40 grams of protein per day. And THATs why, on the dog food bags, they recommend such insane amounts per day! Because they are basing that on the minimum protein requirement!
So based on the above calculations, your girl is probably seriously protein deficient. You would need to give her about 350 grams of food per day to get her what she needs.
So what I would suggest is first, take a look at the thyroid values thru Dr. Jean Dodds. See if she really is where she should be.
Second, assess what you're feeding her. Is there a food that would be more appropriate for her right now? Can you give her one with a higher protein value (no need to get ridiculous into the 50% foods) or can you replace some of her kibble with canned food, which has a higher protein value? 
Third, see if there's some way you can add 10 minutes of exercise per day above what she's getting now. 
Good luck, let us know how it goes!
BTW, there is a veterinary drug for treating overweight dogs, called Slentrol, but I don't know too much about it.





Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Yes, low normal in a golden is actually LOW and needs to be treated to get into a more acceptable range. Here is Dr Dodds site.... you'll be able to get alot of info and learn how to get the blood work done thru her or at the very least have her give a consult. http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/HEMOPET.HTM She really is THE expert when it comes to hematology. Please keep is posted.
> I would have a hard time cutting food much more than 1 3/4 cups daily.... I'd be afraid they wouldn't be getting the proper nutrients for health.


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## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

Thyroid medication isn't a means to loose weight, it is there to provide hormones that your body does not otherwise make. The one vet that you seem to mistrust, I'm bothered a bit by them wanting to increase the dose until she slims down then go back to the other dose. That's not the way the thyroid works.

I have thyroid problems myself (I have Hashimoto's disease) and I know that sometimes you have to get your thyroid levels rechecked, and medication adjusted. With thyroid testing, the rule of thumb is to test 3 times because the numbers fluctuate, then from there average that number and try that dose, however, it's very common to need to adjust the level of medication.

Maybe it's time for Sydney to get another round of tests to see if adjustments need to be made. Thyroid supplements are not a cure, they help, but she may always be a low energy girl. 

One thing I might suggest is trying out Vitamin B supplements. Since I have started taking them myself -I don't take pills I use strips that dissolve, pills don't work very well when it comes to Vitamin B- I have felt a tremendous difference in energy level and body aches. I did a search for you and often for low energy dogs, they suggest Vitamin B that you put into their water. You will know within the first few days if it's needed or not. If she needs Vitamin B, she will perk up pretty quickly after receiving the supplement. If you see no difference, then she isn't B deficient.

Hope you feel better Sydney!! :311hi-thu


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

RummysMum said:


> Thyroid medication isn't a means to loose weight, it is there to provide hormones that your body does not otherwise make. The one vet that you seem to mistrust, I'm bothered a bit by them wanting to increase the dose until she slims down then go back to the other dose. That's not the way the thyroid works.
> 
> I have thyroid problems myself (I have Hashimoto's disease) and I know that sometimes you have to get your thyroid levels rechecked, and medication adjusted. With thyroid testing, the rule of thumb is to test 3 times because the numbers fluctuate, then from there average that number and try that dose, however, it's very common to need to adjust the level of medication.
> 
> ...


It's not that they are using thyroid meds to help take weight off, it's that weight gain like that is a symptom of thyroid disease in dogs. Many vets are not aware of the more subtle thyroid symptoms or treatment..... that's where Dr Dodds is such a blessing.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

RummysMum said:


> Thyroid medication isn't a means to loose weight, it is there to provide hormones that your body does not otherwise make. The one vet that you seem to mistrust, I'm bothered a bit by them wanting to increase the dose until she slims down then go back to the other dose. That's not the way the thyroid works.
> 
> I have thyroid problems myself (I have Hashimoto's disease) and I know that sometimes you have to get your thyroid levels rechecked, and medication adjusted. With thyroid testing, the rule of thumb is to test 3 times because the numbers fluctuate, then from there average that number and try that dose, however, it's very common to need to adjust the level of medication.
> 
> ...


The problem with Sydney though is not that she's simply overweight and has a thyroid problem. Her coat is still dry. She's not a "low energy dog"... She's very high strung (which makes this even more frustrating) but just doesn't have the stamina. I really think, at this point, her dose isn't right, but am extremely frustrated that every time they do blood work its "right where its supposed to be". I'm so thankful that I asked here though, because now I realize (I think) that "right where its supposed to be" isn't where its supposed to be at all. If I remember correctly, it was almost smack in the middle of the range. I'm going to call tomorrow and get copies of the last 2 panels she's had done. I just cant believe I've been fighting with this for so long! I have nothing to lose at this point! 

She's on Nutro Ultra, which it says on the bag "crude protien (min) 28%". I could probably switch her, but honestly, she seems to do well otherwise on the food (aside from her body condition). But I am going to increase that. Yes, it does sound familiar, and again, nothing to lose. She's not a big eater and I really dont think that giving her an extra cup of food is going to be "overfeeding" her, so I'm going to try that too. But adding canned food sounds like something she'd like too... hmmm.... maybe I'll alternate?

Thanks again so much for your help everyone. I feel so much more empowered now! But of course... its Sunday. Cant do much until tomorrow. BJ


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

My dogs don't have thyroid problems, but I do (or did - it is gone!). If you do up her does, then please keep a close check on her blood pressure and cholesterol (do dogs hava high cholesterol?). If my dose gets too high, I also have heart arrythmia(sp?) and muscle spasms to name a couple of problems. Yes, I am low energy and stamina now as well as 35 lbs heavier, but it is worth to be rid of the problems that came from an overactive thyroid. Mine was very overactive, so you might not have the same problems from being high normal. I don't know(my doc keeps me at low normal), but I do know that too much thyroid replacement medication (or overactive thyroid)can really make things go haywire! She might need more, but you need to keep a close check on things until you are sure the higher dose isn't causing more problems than benefits.
Good luck!


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

My thyroid boy did really well on raw, it was one of the reasons I switched to raw for good. The other good thing about raw for thyroid dogs is it is low carb, which makes it easier to manage their weight. You can also add supplements for their weight while feeding them less to have them loose the extra pounds. 

In any case, it might help to add in some good supplements including oils, and to cut back on her food more just to get the weight off.

Lana


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

I got a copy of her last thyroid test (they did a T4 and a CHOL). I think we use a different scale here, but hers was 2.9 UG/DL (Normal is listed on the sheet as 1.1-4.0 UG/DL) and her CHOL was 266 mg/DL (max of 270 for "normal"). I sent an email to Dr Dodds as well. If she says she needs me to send her blood or whatever before she gives her opinion, I'm going to do it. 

The vet was supposed to call me back yesterday and it was my day off. I had plans to go out of town, but stayed home waiting for them to call. They never did. And then I called back this morning. She said she'd ask him to call me at work, and still no word. Perhaps I'm feeling a little hypersensitive (all I could think all day was how 3 yrs, right at my dogs "prime", have been lost with this) but I'm even considering trying to find a new vet. I love the vet I have, but some of their office staff (to their benefit, they are fairly new) is lacking some customer service. They're a "country vet" so I cant say I fault them for their cookie cutter diagnosis, but boy am I glad I asked!! Thanks you guys, soooo much! BJ


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Keep us posted on what you hear from Dr. Dodds. I'm sure she'll be much more "timely" than the service you've got from your hometown vet.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Keep us posted on what you hear from Dr. Dodds. I'm sure she'll be much more "timely" than the service you've got from your hometown vet.


I hope so.... I wont hear from them today either (its after 6:00... clinic's closed for the day). Dont they understand how we all panic when our pets are involved? BJ


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

NO KIDDING. Prayers are coming from our house to yours. Unfortunately, another example of how we have to be our furbabies advocates. I'm such a whimp I'll rarely stand up for myself, but for one of the kids..... watch out, Momma's on the warpath !!!lol


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

Well, you were right. Got an email back. One thing nobody told me was to not give the thryoid pill close to food. At night, her pill is given to her at dinnertime, but that they aren't absorbed correctly with food. She also said (I think) that my vets "normal" values were off. They told me 1.1-4.0ug/dL, where Dr Dodds said 3.5-6.0 ug/dL. Sydney's is 2.9. She said it should be measured 4-6 hrs after the AM pill, which it was. Now I feel like I have somewhere to work from, and things are starting to fall into place for me. I now understand why her coat is the way it is (still!) and why I haven't seen much changes. My poor girl! I feel like I've let her down, but at least I feel that we can change some things and work on improving things. 

Thanks again everyone! BJ

Update: one of the vets (a new one!) called and she's all for increasing her dose and rechecking in a month or so to see where her levels are again. Could I be getting somewhere? I hope so!


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

I have had to oldes wt low thyroid, full brothers, different litters. The first, scooter, was diagnosed about the time he turned 4 and he those classic symptoms--sudden weight gain, hair loss, hair looking dull and coarse, lack of energy, no energy. He was put on .8 soloxine twice a day and in a couple of months he ws back his old self--it did tke another another couple of months to get all the exra weight off, over 20 pounds total.

Buck was diagnosed about the time he turned 10 and he did not have a single symptom. His was caught during pre-dental full blood pane and my vet was totall shocked as were we. Bwas put on the .8 soloxine twice a day, checked month later, then again in 6 months and the dosage was raised to 1 1/2 of the .,8 soloxine twice a day. And it never had to be changed again. Lost him to heart attack at 12 yrs. 3 months.

I think you are on the right road now nd hope she gets into a normal zone very fast.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Sounds like you're on the right path. I bet you'll know things are going better just by her response.. long before another round of tests. YEA !!!!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

that's awesome, now you have a direction in which to head!!


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> that's awesome, now you have a direction in which to head!!


Yes, thanks to all of you! Onward and upward as they say, right? BJ


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

I just wanted to give a bit of an update (since I'm SOOO excited! LOL). 

I took Sydney out today and went to put on her tracking harness (we track even just a tiny bit every Saturday morning). Its not the easiest thing to resize in the best of times, but it was loose. Could it be possible she's lost weight already? Hmmm.... or maybe I'm seeing it because I *want* to, but at any rate, I took it as a good sign. 

She has an appointment with a "new" vet that does more work with competition dogs etc rather than just the country vet I had been using on Thursday. Its a bit closer for me now, so I'm optomistic that things are on the right path. Of course they'll weigh her so I'll know for sure if she's really lost anything then, but I really hope so. Thanks again everyone! BJ


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

I have no experience with this or advice to offer, but just wanted to say I hope you guys get this figured out and get that weight off that girl. Good luck!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I hope this is the solution. I've been taking thyroid meds for 21 years now and I always take them incorrectly! LOL The one thing humans do need to be careful of is too much of the medication. I don't know if it is the same in dogs. One year post-menopause I already have osteo. I was on too much medication for 8 months and severely deficient in Vitamin D at the same time. Not a good combo. 

I hope the timing of the medication is the ticket!


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I am sorry I have missed this entire thread. 

I worked with Dr. Dodds to get Gunner's thyroid meds right. My vet wasn't going to treat him because he was low normal but by Dr Dodds stats he was low. Luckily my vet agreed to go by Dr. Dodds scale. Gunner takes .5 of Soloxine twice a day 2 hours after meals. He lost 10 pounds quickly. His coat is gorgeous and he is alittle less anxious.

Good luck with your boy and I hope things straighten out now.


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## mcgorman (Apr 8, 2009)

You say your golden's coat was dry? What do you mean by that? We had our dog's thyroid checked and although I can't find the paper I think I remember the vet saying she was low but still in the normal range. Does anyone know if this could be a cause for very dry flaky skin? Please help.

Matt


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Yes, it causes dry flaky skin. Sometimes they can be low and have no symptoms but low thyroid can cause a myriad of health issues including seizures so you want to get them on meds if they are low. The test needs to be a FULL PANEL and they have to send it away. the vet cannot process the test locally. Michigan State does it but I would recommend Dr. Jean Dodds in CA. You can google her = at Hemopet. She is wonderful.

Our Gunner had no symptoms that I noticed like our previous golden (whose coat got shaggy and dry, and he gained weight ). Gunner was a decent weight , got lots of exercise and his coat seemed fine but after going on meds, his coat became gorgeously lush, he lost ten pounds and his anxiety lessened.

Do a search here on hypothyroid.. there are many threads with links to more info. But Dr. Dodds has symptoms etc on her site also.


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## mcgorman (Apr 8, 2009)

Thank you very much. I am going to definitely look into it. Genny is a good weight and very active but her skin is awful. Soo dry and flakey.


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## LuvMySophie (Jan 3, 2010)

My friend rescued a intact male Golden last summer. I brought Sam home from the shelter @ which I volunteered. Sam tested positive for Lymes & was medicated & had a couple of seizures last summer. Sam is on meds. for seizures & has had only 1 slight seizure a few months ago. Sam's platelet levels were low last summer but are fine now. Sam had his blood tested last week & tested Lyme positive (which I believe he always will) & they found that his Thyroid level was low .05. I am on a frenzy now trying to learn about Thyroid problems in Goldens & believe I read that 3.5 is low (Our Vet said that 1-5 scale 1 being low so Sam is dangerously low) "for Goldens". I also read that low Thyroid can cause seizures. Can anyone share any info. that will help us help Sam. We are new Golden Retriever owners. We love them to death & want the very best! Looking for all of your experience & expertice!
Sophie's Mom<3
Amy T


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