# New to forum, really need advice



## Denise7839 (Mar 7, 2009)

HI Everyone,
I'm new to this forum and searched it out because I'm looking for info on a potentially huge problem. 

I have a 3 year old male Golden, whom I love dearly. He is extremely gentle to people, he's generally a big clown, gets along pretty well with the other dogs in the family, gives the cats a wide berth, etc. He does have some food aggression issues where the other dogs are concerned and we have taken steps to manage that. He has been neutered and is on thyroid medicine.

When outside, he routinely (sometimes obsessively) chases squirrels and birds and catches moles on occasion. Last week, we lost our electricity due to a snow storm. That evening, he and my male lab left the yard because the hidden fence was "off." Neither of them have ever been out of the yard. They went down the road and found a very small dog. My Golden attacked it and killed it. My husband and I are shocked and heartbroken for the owners of the other dog. We have made restitution but we are just devastated by the loss of their pet. I have contacted a well known local behaviorist to work with us and the Golden to try and ensure that this never happens again.

Here's my question: should I be worried about this behavior? I'm very confused because I've seen threads on this forum that say that dogs killing small animals is "normal" ---they're dogs and this is an instinctual behavior. This was in the context of squirrels, mice, moles, birds, etc and even cats if they run. So what am I to think about my dog, who killed a dog that was the size of a normal sized squirrel? Is he a "viscious" dog who should be euthanized? Or is he a dog exhibiting "normal" behavior, even though it resulted in something very sad and unfortunate. It's very confusing. No one is saying we have to euthanize the dog but the behaviorist indicated that there are 3 options: 1. re-home, 2. re-train or 3. euthanize. We want to do everything we can do to "fix" this behavior, but is it really even possible to fix something that could be an instinct? 

Right now, he's under a 10 day "home quarantine." We consider ourselves responsible pet owners and the fence thing was definitely a "fluke." Nothing like this has ever happened. Any constructive input/advice you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

You are obviously a concerned dog owner as well as a responsible person or you wouldn't be here asking for direction. By all means consult a behaviorist/trainer for their input. Your question about "instinct" is interesting. If a raccoon kills a cat, or a mountain lion kills a dog that constitutes instinct. When your domesticated dog kills another dog that may be instinct coming out in a pack sense but will never be the answer you hear in court or from animal control. Our society expects more and deserves more from pets. The invisivible fence is not an option for you to satisfy the need to confine you dogs, this can and will happen again so other efforts need to be explored. A constructed fence for containment will work better although dogs with that kind of prey drive can get over, under, or through very substantial confinement. A chainlink kennel arrangement would be better. Your dog may very well not act in that way when alone but two dogs together consitute a pack and when in a pack dogs act very differently, especially when in prey drive mode. To rehome the dog would just be giving the problem to someone else who in fact may not take the precautions you are, you being aware of the past history so IMO rehoming is not an option unless it is with someone better equipped to handle the situation. What happened is not your fault but is your responsibility and you took care of that. Great care must be taken to prevent it from repeating. I'm sorry for your prediciment, Good Luck.
Wagondog


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

This is a sad post, and I would feel as you do- bewildered and confused. It is hard to reconcile the animal part of dogs with the lovey pet part- for me anyway. A dog definitely knows the difference between a member of its own clan(another dog) and a squirrel. However, it's possible for the prey drive to be activated by a fast running little thing(GSD's are known to chase little dogs), the way some dogs will live happily with a kitty inside, but still give chase outside. I don't know what you should do. Having to face the other family must have been awful. I am just wondering if it was chase/prey drive that resulted in the death of the little dog or if it was dog to dog aggression? You have so much responsibility in owning this dog from now on; for me personally, if it were a dog agression kill, in which your golden deliberately killed another dog, I would put my dog to sleep. However, if it was a prey drive kill, an instinctual chase, I would put 1000 failsafes in place to manage the way I kept the dog safely. That is just me, as a nonexpert pet golden owner. I am sorry for your situation, as I would be flustered and beside myself as well.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

How awful.
Can you I ask you how you knew it was the golden? Did someone witness the attack? Did anyone see what brought it on?
Maybe I'm in denial, but is it possible that the small dog provoked/attacked your golden, and he retaliated?


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## Denise7839 (Mar 7, 2009)

Thank you so much for the replies. It is really hard to understand. My knee jerk reaction was to euthanize and I actually made the appointment. My vet, however, canceled the appointment due to 2 reasons: 1. the mandatory 10 day quarantine period (I was not aware of it) and 2. they know the dog and called the behaviorist as an emergency situation. They want me to exhaust all possibilities before making such a permanent decision. 

We do know that it was my Golden who killed the other dog (the dog actually died at the vet later that evening). The owner witnessed it. I'm confident it was the prey drive/pack mentality as this dog loves other dogs (but not small animals in our yard) AND he was with his "big brother," the Lab. The only aggression he's ever shown to another dog is around food, and we've got that tightly controlled.

I really appreciate the replies as this has been a very sad week for my family. It's just so hard to believe my big, dopey "baby" could have done this, but obviously, he did.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I am so very sorry for everyone involved. What a dilemma you face. That is a great vet you have , wanting you/him to work with the behaviorist first.

My first recommendation even before the behavorist is get a REAL fence! This dog whatever his issues cannot be allowed a chance to get loose. I even think you should always be "out" with him. Is he trained in obedience and does he mind you? He should be able to be trained to NOT chase small animals, no matter how "normal" the prey drive is. My goldens have been taught not to chase since catching a squirrel.

I understand too your feeling about your dopey baby being able to do this. 
My big dopey Gunner has fear aggression toward strange dogs. I don't know what he would do if he actually got to one. He has stopped the few times it happened and since then I have tightly controlled him and his freedom. It is an awful feeling to not be able to trust your dog but the truth is they are animals and we are deluding ourselves anytime we think we totally "know " them.

Good Luck with the behaviorist. Please keep us updated. My thoughts are with you in this difficult situation.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I'm very sorry for your situation - it's painful and confusing, I understand that. And you should not fear being labeled as irresponsible - quite the opposite.
I'm glad that your vet called in a behaviorist. This does not appear at all to be a case of a vicious dog. If the dog killed was very tiny, it may not have taken much more than a couple of shakes to have caused irreparable damage. It's a terrible thing for both of your families.


How long has it been since he's had a thyroid panel run? It's not unusual at all to have to readjust dosages, and that might help, as well.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I wanted to add to what wagondog said about the pack mentality. 
Normal dogs can become very prey driven with another dog in a chase.

I witnessed a group of what I assume were normal lovable family dogs at a dog park try to drown my daughter's golden puppy when in a "pack"

Therefore what PointGold says makes perfect sense. But I would definitely work with a behaviorist, get a real fence and do some major obedience work. Also recheck a full thyroid panel. My boy with issues has hypothyroid also and his behavior/anxiety is much better since being treated.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Again, maybe I'm in denial here....
I run a pet hotel. We don't let small dogs ANYWHERE near big dogs. They have a separate room and don't go outside anywhere near the big dogs.
Too many times I've seen small dogs with a napolean complex start a problem with a bigger dog. We worry that a bigger dog might decide to retaliate, and the small dog doesn't stand a chance. As PG said, it doesn't take much for a big dog to do fatal damage to a small dog. The dog doesn't even have to be "tiny", just smaller. 
Especially with the only witness the small dog's owner....do you know for SURE that his/her dog didn't run up to your dog, barking? Do you know for SURE that his/her dog didn't make threatening eye contact, ears back, tail straight up in the air and stiff?? Those are things that dogs perceive as a challenge and/or a threat. 
I can tell you any number of stories of clients of mine who *almost* put their dogs down over incidents that involved inter-animal aggression, or several cases including two cases involving golden retrievers, aggression toward people. In only 1 case did it turn out that it was in fact warranted, and the dog (cairn terrier) ended up being euthanized, but that was a case of extreme aggression toward humans and these people had worked with 2 vets as well as a behaviorist and the problem simply could not be solved. NONE of the other dogs ever exhibited a problem again.
Certainly, it will be hard to trust your dog. I would surely consider an alterate means of keeping the dog in the yard, whether it's a fence or an overhead tie set-up. I probably would not let the dog outside unattended. But I honestly cannot see euthanizing a loved family pet because of a situation in which you were not even present. Remember, dogs do not have any concept of relative size (they've done a ton of studies on this) and doesn't know the other dog is a lot smaller. That's a pretty high level cognitive concept, and even people who think dogs are brilliant agree that they don't have the sense of self nor the ability to make comparisons required to determine that the other dog is much smaller. 
Please give the behaviorist a chance. 
Also, may I suggest boarding the dog for the balance of the quarantine period? It gives everyone a chance to cool off, and gives you a chance to imagine life without your dog....
One of the people whose golden retriever ripped into their 12 year old daughter's arm (requiring 15+ stitches) brought the dog out to me to board for 2 weeks after it happened so that everyone could cool down a bit. (It was food related). They were certain that euthanizing the dog was the only option, and I begged her to bring him out here instead and think it over. 
That was 8 years ago, and the dog just turned 10. After a week without him, they decided to work with a behaviorist rather than euthanizing him and they never had another problem with him.
Sorry to ramble. It just bothers me that the dog isn't being given the benefit of the doubt, when the only witness was the other dog's owner.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

It's unusual to see pack mentality in a pair of dogs. Typically you need 3 or more before you will see it. Prey drive, yes. Pack mentality, no.
I STILL think there's more to it than meets the eye.




Denise7839 said:


> Thank you so much for the replies. It is really hard to understand. My knee jerk reaction was to euthanize and I actually made the appointment. My vet, however, canceled the appointment due to 2 reasons: 1. the mandatory 10 day quarantine period (I was not aware of it) and 2. they know the dog and called the behaviorist as an emergency situation. They want me to exhaust all possibilities before making such a permanent decision.
> 
> We do know that it was my Golden who killed the other dog (the dog actually died at the vet later that evening). The owner witnessed it. I'm confident it was the prey drive/pack mentality as this dog loves other dogs (but not small animals in our yard) AND he was with his "big brother," the Lab. The only aggression he's ever shown to another dog is around food, and we've got that tightly controlled.
> 
> I really appreciate the replies as this has been a very sad week for my family. It's just so hard to believe my big, dopey "baby" could have done this, but obviously, he did.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

hotel, I agree with you. After witnessing their dog dying, I'm sure the other owners view and memory of what happened could be distorted or at least affected.

I was just trying to make a point about what drives dogs to do things we see as so scary. I agree it was probably prey driven , not pack with two dogs.


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## Denise7839 (Mar 7, 2009)

Wow---you guys are so supportive! In answer to the new questions, no, I'm not "sure" that the little dog didn't do some sort of provocation. The people were so reasonable and nice to us (even though extremely upset) that they tied up my Golden over night and fed him! We had called animal control when we couldn't find him (the Lab came home on his own) and they called us the next morning. I don't know if they saw the whole incident or just came outside when they heard the dogs.

Hotel4dogs: I'm now not thinking that the only solution is to euthanize him. In fact, I'm horrified that I actually made the appointment to have it done. I realize that it was a knee jerk reaction and I was so distraught at the thought that 1. my dog had killed another dog and 2. that I was actually going to have my dog killed. 

In answer to the thyroid question, he's on his 3rd month of pills. And as for him going out by himself, that's a big no. He is on the leash and I even put a muzzle on him (I know---probably overkill). I'm scared to death that he may get off the property again, not because he will run thru the electric fence (he's a big baby and can't stand the shock) but I'm afraid that it will happen again if the electricity goes off. I have a large property so need to think about how I would put in another fence (we live in a rural area). 

There's so much to think about and I really appreciate your input!


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## Nanika (Jan 10, 2008)

I am so sorry that you are going through this difficult time. Have you thought about putting up a dog run (chain link) so when you are not able to watch the dogs you know that they are safe. I also live on rural property and when we are not home the dogs go in the kennel or stay inside. The peace of mind is so worth it to me.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm so glad that you're not planning to euthanize him just yet! He deserves a second chance, because no one except HIM knows what REALLY happened! I think you've got a case of "reasonable doubt" that would make any jury back down on the death sentence.
The muzzle when outside is a good idea, btw. Is it a "racing muzzle" like they use on greyhounds? It will keep him from killing small animals, too, which would be a plus when it comes to tapeworms!
As for the fence, we live on 10 acres. But only part of it is fenced for the dogs.


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## Denise7839 (Mar 7, 2009)

I'm using a muzzle that I had for my boy lab when he was little and just going thru dog training (he was a little freaked out by other dogs and the muzzle was necessary. He's fine now). It's one of those soft muzzles. He can eat drink, etc and I know it's not the right muzzle for longterm use. I"ve been researching muzzles online for last few days so if you all have any suggestions as to which muzzle to get, please let me know!

As for the dog run---yes, I'm thinking that may be an answer. My male lab is a "digger" though so what kind of fence/precautions should I take? I want to make it comfortable for them but keep them safe and secured. Please let me know your thoughts on this subject.


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## Nanika (Jan 10, 2008)

I have dug part of the fencing into the groung (about 6-8 inches). I have also poured concrete footings, on another run, and then placed the fencing on that. I have seen people use concrete patio blocks around the fence area so that digging is not an easy way out. I hope that you can find something that works for you, your family and your dogs.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Denise7839 said:


> I'm using a muzzle that I had for my boy lab when he was little and just going thru dog training (he was a little freaked out by other dogs and the muzzle was necessary. He's fine now). It's one of those soft muzzles. He can eat drink, etc and I know it's not the right muzzle for longterm use. I"ve been researching muzzles online for last few days so if you all have any suggestions as to which muzzle to get, please let me know!
> 
> As for the dog run---yes, I'm thinking that may be an answer. My male lab is a "digger" though so what kind of fence/precautions should I take? I want to make it comfortable for them but keep them safe and secured. Please let me know your thoughts on this subject.


 
Can you pour a concrete pad for the run to sit on? No digging, and also very easy to keep clean.

As for muzzles, are you planning to keep one on him? Or only use it when you are out with him?


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## Denise7839 (Mar 7, 2009)

Yes, I can do a concrete pad. Do you have any guidelines on how large a dog run should be? As for the muzzle, I"m thinking that with the dog run, I would only put the muzzle on him when he is outside of the dog run and under supervision. If I were to keep one on him, what kind would you suggest? Same question for the other option.

Thanks!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

They sell what they call "racing muzzles" for greyhounds. Maybe take a look at those. 
I don't know how much money you want to throw at a dog run, but here at the pet hotel what we did was pour sidewalks all the way around the outside exercise areas and then core the fence posts down thru the concrete. They don't need to be regular sidewalk width, of course, and I think you could probably make do with large landscape paver blocks instead. Be sure to run bottom rail on the fences, too. 
That not only prevents digging, but also avoids mud along the fence line, which is where most dogs will tend to run back and forth. Another thing we've done, which is relatively inexpensive to do, is put "tip ins" on the tops of all the fences. It's just 3 rows of coated wire, tipped inward so that dogs can't ever climb over the fences. Easier and cheaper than covering them. A fence supply place like Farm and Fleet or Tractor Supply should be able to help you with that.






Denise7839 said:


> I'm using a muzzle that I had for my boy lab when he was little and just going thru dog training (he was a little freaked out by other dogs and the muzzle was necessary. He's fine now). It's one of those soft muzzles. He can eat drink, etc and I know it's not the right muzzle for longterm use. I"ve been researching muzzles online for last few days so if you all have any suggestions as to which muzzle to get, please let me know!
> 
> As for the dog run---yes, I'm thinking that may be an answer. My male lab is a "digger" though so what kind of fence/precautions should I take? I want to make it comfortable for them but keep them safe and secured. Please let me know your thoughts on this subject.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

There are some standard sizes of kennel runs that can be purchased "in box". Another idea is to but one up against the side of a garage, making it necessary to only have three sides of fencing. I'd go a _minimum_ of 6 feet wide, and 10 feet long, larger if you can, considering there will be two dogs. Tops are also available which are actually not bad looking and prode protection from the elements as well as keeping them from climbing out. There are also simple tarp/shade screens that can be used.
Most fence companies can help you customize something suitable for your particular situation. 

http://www.dogrunkennel.com/

http://rosedalemills.com/kennel_chain-link.htm

http://www.thefind.com/pets/info-quick-kennel

http://www.optionspluskennels.com/hardroof.htm


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Bottom rails on a chain link fence or run are the best investment you can make. It prevents 99% of the digging out. Normally diggers can dig a relatively small hole and then push the fence up to worm their way out. A low set bottom rail prevents this. Also tie the chainlink down every 1-2", this prevents the dog from working the chainlink loose and rolling it up to escape-and yes, I had several dogs who would do this :-(

Paving blocks are great as long as the dog can't physically move them. Wire buried along the fence line works also to prevent digging, but does periodically need to be replaced.

I can't imagine how you must feel. I have both Goldens and small Toy breeds, and I don't know what I would do if that happened here. You are certainly being very responsible about it.


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## Denise7839 (Mar 7, 2009)

Thanks so much for all the info. Again, I really appreciate your help!


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Denise*

Denis:

I am so sorry for what you, your family and your GOlden have been through, my heart also breaks for your neighbor.

I completely agree with everyone here that a real fence is the only secure means of containment and I have a next door neighbor w/an electronic fence.
I would not trust my dogs w/an electronic fence, and though we have a cedar fence around the yard I am always watching Smooch and Snobear when they are outside doing their duties. I never let them out and go about my business. I'm too afraid of losing them or someone climing the fence to take them. I feel we OWE our dogs this type of protection.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I've been reading this thread, I've wanted to post but haven't. I don't have any advice, the others here have done a good job with that.

I definitely do not trust my golden with small dogs. Maybe it is that Napolean complex, I'm not sure what it is exactly. I just know I need to be careful. She's the sweetest dog, never has had trouble with people and rarely with larger dogs, but small dogs make me so nervous. She definitely has a breaking point. 

Denise, your golden is not the first golden that's killed another dog. You're not alone, if that's any comfort. What a horrible experience though, I'm so sorry you have to go through this. There's a small dog across the street that sometimes comes into our yard and attacks Daisy. I'm so scared one of these days Daisy is going to kill it. I know we wouldn't be liable but still, I just would hate for Daisy to have that experience, and me also. It's not exactly a stretch for me to put myself in your shoes, Denise. 

Good luck with your boy. I'm sure he's a very sweet dog and I'm glad you reached out.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Regarding muzzles, you're looking for a basket muzzle. Also, Google "instinctive drift." It may shed some light on what likely happened with your dog.

So sorry you're going through this. :-(

A dog run is a great idea for when you can't be supervising your dogs outside.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Welcome Denise,
Great ideas from everyone and I am glad you have gotten some help and feel better now after all the ideas. This place is really amazing when people need help from dogs to family or friends and we are glad you have joined us. 
I am so sorry that you have gone thru this and are working to correct what happened and keeping him with you. Good luck and we would love to see some pictures of both furkids when you get a chance. He sounds like a great guy except for this isolated incident. And thankfully the people that lost their dog didnt go all overboard like some people tend to do these days. They sound like nice people too. 
Give him a big hug from me.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

I also have a Golden (Chandler) who killed another dog....a Jack Russell Terrier. Chandler was 14 mos old at the time, had recently been neutered, and had grown up with the Jack Russell.

The Jack Russell was jumping at him, nipping at him, and when he had enough...the Jack Russell didn't stop. The smaller dog also died at the Vet the following day.

That was almost 6 years ago. Chandler is a GREAT dog. A bit high energy lol but otherwise, wonderful with children, adults, other dogs, etc. 

When we brought in a new adult male rescue (Newf), they got into tussle within about 6 months. However, he's not the only one. Our low low low keyed Amos got into his own tussle with the newcomer. I think it's how they determined the hierarchy in the household. After the one fight...they've all gotten along just fine, and that was 2.5 years ago. And the Newf was bigger...by far...so the Goldens figured out that one on one fighting with him wasn't a great idea. 

I'd just beware of letting him near any small dogs (especially males), and when you're out in public, keep your boy on leash at all times.

Do work with the behaviorist...and get into some obedience classes. The more dogs he's around in a controlled setting, the more he'll be used to all types of "personalities".

And...ask the behaviorist to test him around other dogs. That's important. It might have just been THAT dog. Sometimes they just don't like one another, and if a fight breaks out, and one is smaller....the small dog usually loses.

Chandler had been placed in his new home as an 8 week old puppy...and had been there for a year when this happened. They took him to the Humane Society, dumped him, and we got him.

So what I'm saying is.......don't give up on him. You really don't know what happened, and as the people at the shelter told me "It was a DOG fight....they happen". I know it's terribly upsetting, but if he's a good dog, and this is an anomaly, I certainly wouldn't put him down.

Here's Chandler....he lives with a LOT of dogs at our house....and cats....and is just wonderful. He's almost 7 years old:


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Ardeagold, I think it is amazing and wonderful the shelter didn't put Chandler down! I would think most would considering he killed another dog.

What a great story with a happy ending for the OP. Thanks for sharing. I have always thought Chandler was so gorgeous.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Actually the HS was aghast that the owners dumped him. He's such a nice dog. Their comment (I remember it clearly) was "It was a DOG fight, for heaven's sake...they happen...the small dog lost. If it was a dog of equal size, it would have probably been a draw. If it was a larger dog, the Golden would probably be dead". They don't look at it as aggression, but as "not unusual". We all know dog fights happen...even between two nice dogs. (From our perspective...not theirs, obviously)

A lady who owns Newfs...lots of them...and is a well known highly respected breeder had her Newfs gang up on her Jack Russell and kill it. She said they warned him and warned him for years to stop annoying them, and he never got the message. Her view was that he committed suicide. Well bred Newfs don't generally kill warm blooded creatures, especially their housemates....they love birds, bunnies, squirrels, cats, everything. They will kill "prey" like snakes, turtles, reptiles, fish....or something like moles they're hunting, but otherwise it's unusual. 

Also...there are JR websites that clearly state that the JR is the #1 dog killed by other dogs, because it's so darned annoying. These are breeders - educating the public.

Anyway...this can happen anytime to any dog owner. I'd be willing to bet the little dog charged up yapping and possibly even nipping, and the Golden grabbed it...or felt he was defending himself.


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## Popebendgoldens (May 16, 2008)

Denise,

You have received many great replies. I do, however, have one more question. Was the dog that got killed on a leash or off leash? If the little dog was off leash , then the owner is at fault too. I am sorry that the little dog got killed but some little dogs are worse than big dogs when it come to aggressive behavior to other dogs.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

pat : Not if the dog was off leash in it's own yard.

And Ardea, my sister has a JRT female who HATES my goldens who have never been more than their lovable selves to her. Of course Gunner has not been around her in awhile.


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## Noey (Feb 26, 2009)

You can't gage "intent." The other dog owner, rightly so, is upset and devastated. It’s possible the little dog was protecting it’s property or owner in the yard, so that alone would cause conflict with two dogs entering the property with the smaller animal. Once you have a dogs protecting, conflict happens. It’s also possible big dogs with little dogs and in play mode = injury. 

It’s an unfortunate turn of events and I feel for both parties, but 100% agree with your vet. If it’s outside your dogs regular behavior your dog deserves a chance. 

Everyone is very correct in advice. (in my opinion)
I’m sorry you have to go through this, but one act does not make your dog a “bad apple.” I hope all turns out well for you.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Denise*

Densie:

I think a dog run would be just fine for your Golden Ret. and Lab and it would save a bit of the grass, too.

I agree that the little dog might have provoked your dog. so sorry for everyone concerned that this happened. It was very nice of the little dogs owners to secure your baby overnight.


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## Denise7839 (Mar 7, 2009)

Hi Pat,

I don't know if the little dog (it was a chihuahua) was on the leash or off. The thing is, my boys got off my property, due to the power outage, and onto the little dog's property so we were "in the wrong." 

The behaviorist is coming this week and you all have given me a lot to think about. My husband and I have discussed putting in a dog run. There is a company that sells a portable "floor" ---some sort of heavy duty material that dogs supposedly can't dig thru. Do any of you have experience with that? The other option would be a concrete pad and I'm open to either. 

I'm trying to figure out how to post a picture of my Golden baby. His name is Bentley and he's a sweetie!

Denise


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## Denise7839 (Mar 7, 2009)

Here's my baby, Bentley.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I agree with the advice already given. All too often little dogs like that aren't socialized either, and don't realize how small they are. Without seeing what happened exactly it's hard to say. I know my guys here do play very hard with each other, if your golden is used to a lab then chances are he wouldn't know that a little dog isn't as tough. 

I hope you get some answers though. A dog run would be a good idea for sure, when you're not able to watch them. I'm really sorry this happened to you.

Lana


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

I noticed you said you're rural and have a lot of property. We fenced 3 acres ourselves...with "livestock fencing". The wire that has rectangle shapes. We also fenced the ground UNDER the fence. (We had an escape artist). But if you have electronic fencing in the ground already, if you put a physical fence up around that area in the back....and used both....with the flags and all....that would probably take care of the problem. 

That kind of fencing does keep them in, as long as you don't have serious jumpers (ours is over 5' tall) or diggers. But as I said with the E-fence...and a real fence (that you CAN do yourselves)....you should be fine.

Here's what we have - all around our back wrapping to the front/side. And yes...we also have several gates...front and back. Look behind the dogs:




























This is the type of wire we used...with metal posts, sunk in concrete (the type you mix yourself):










When we were in a hurry...when we put it in and wanted it up NOW, we used those commercial heavy duty locking plastic strapping things to connect the fencing to the posts. But we've replaced those (they'll dry rot in about a year), with wire "ties" that have a loop on each end (Double end loop tie wire). You need a tool that swivels with a hooked end to put them on. You just hook the ends on the hook and "spin" them with your wrist to tighten.

Like this! Works great and is EASY!

http://www.mastergardenproducts.com/bamboowiretie.htm


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## PJD001 (Jul 28, 2006)

Oh Boy! I am so sorry you have to go through this tragedy. I have next door neighbours who own JRT and a chihuaha. They are always out, barking at anything that moves and wake me up with their barking every morning about 6.45 am. I don't know how the owner can let them do this or whether she is just oblivious to the noise. I would not let my dogs near it. It gets up to the back fence and deliberately stirs my dogs up into a frenzy where they scratch and bark at the fence. I don't honestly know what would happen if they got hold of her dogs. I am not going to find out either. I can imagine how rotten I would feel even if it was the little dogs fault. My two are gentle angels! The neigbours dogs actually jumped into my car once as I was going out. The little thing growled and snarled at me when I tried to get it out. A quick grab of its scruff and some harsh words got it out! Never did it again. I think the advice and suggestions in this thread have been very sound and helpful.


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## amazonb (Feb 23, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Again, maybe I'm in denial here....
> I run a pet hotel. We don't let small dogs ANYWHERE near big dogs. They have a separate room and don't go outside anywhere near the big dogs.
> Too many times I've seen small dogs with a napolean complex start a problem with a bigger dog. We worry that a bigger dog might decide to retaliate, and the small dog doesn't stand a chance. As PG said, it doesn't take much for a big dog to do fatal damage to a small dog. The dog doesn't even have to be "tiny", just smaller.
> Especially with the only witness the small dog's owner....do you know for SURE that his/her dog didn't run up to your dog, barking? Do you know for SURE that his/her dog didn't make threatening eye contact, ears back, tail straight up in the air and stiff?? Those are things that dogs perceive as a challenge and/or a threat.
> ...


great post! I agree....give yourself some time to let the acuity of this settle


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## amazonb (Feb 23, 2008)

Denise7839 said:


> Here's my baby, Bentley.


looking at this gorgeous boy of yours and having had 3 goldens, there is more to this than meets the eye...what I mean is, I cannot imagine this being an aggression/kill whatever one would wish to call it. I have had a chihuahaw in my home that has stared down my goldens and been very aggressive toward them I agree wholeheartedly with getting the behaviourist in place. Good Luck and I am so sorry this has happenned to you and the other owner.


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## Denise7839 (Mar 7, 2009)

Just an update---I met with a behaviorist on Friday and we're going to start working with her on Monday. She says she actually sees aggression issues with Goldens all the time and believes it's because of "overbreeding." I also spoke with another behaviorist that a friend knows in another state and she basically said the same thing. That's not to say that the chihuahua didn't play a part in this, but both behaviorists have noticed significant differences in the Goldens of 20 years ago and the Goldens of today.

I"ll keep you all posted. Thanks for all the support!

Denise


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I always wonder what the term "overbreeding" means. I know what "inbreeding" means, but "overbreeding"? 



Denise7839 said:


> Just an update---I met with a behaviorist on Friday and we're going to start working with her on Monday. She says she actually sees aggression issues with Goldens all the time and believes it's because of "overbreeding." I also spoke with another behaviorist that a friend knows in another state and she basically said the same thing. That's not to say that the chihuahua didn't play a part in this, but both behaviorists have noticed significant differences in the Goldens of 20 years ago and the Goldens of today.
> 
> I"ll keep you all posted. Thanks for all the support!
> 
> Denise


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I think it means something like breeding for quantity rather than quality.

I'm not sure that's always the answer though. I can see Daisy getting herself into a situation like this with a small dog but I don't consider her aggressive at all. Sometimes it seems that dogs have their own set of rules that we don't always understand.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> I always wonder what the term "overbreeding" means. I know what "inbreeding" means, but "overbreeding"?


This is a term generally used by people with little or no knowldge of breeding. They apparently believe that breeders, by doing selective breeding, are totally at fault for any and all genetic disease and temperament issue that a breed may possess. Given how hard good breeders work to _eliminate _such problems, this is an unfair blanket statement. Lay people have taken up this hue and cry and applied it to purebred dogs in general, and "show dogs" in particular. Technically, "overbreeding" means breeding for quantity without regard to genetics, breed standards and temperaments.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Hoping working with a behaviorist helps but it sounded like a prey thing tome and as long as your dog is under your control, there shouldn't be a problem. 
Are you getting a real fence?


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## spruce (Mar 13, 2008)

there was an article posted on the Lab forum about increased aggression in goldens (i ignored it)


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Denise7839 said:


> Just an update---I met with a behaviorist on Friday and we're going to start working with her on Monday. She says she actually sees aggression issues with Goldens all the time and believes it's because of "overbreeding." I also spoke with another behaviorist that a friend knows in another state and she basically said the same thing. That's not to say that the chihuahua didn't play a part in this, but both behaviorists have noticed significant differences in the Goldens of 20 years ago and the Goldens of today.
> 
> I"ll keep you all posted. Thanks for all the support!
> 
> Denise



I really applaud you for not taking the easy way out and giving up on your dog. After reading your whole story, I have to say I don't think you've got an aggressive Golden on your hands.. maybe one that just didn't know his own strength when showing a yappy little dog that he's not displaying good dog manners. I'm glad you are working with a behaviorist... but I hope she doesn't group your dog in with dogs that maliciously hurt or kill other dogs, because I don't see that as the situation here.


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## Denise7839 (Mar 7, 2009)

HI again,

I think what both behaviorists meant was quantity over quality and that there has been a proliferation of that with the most popular breeds. It's not the "professional" breeders she was referring to but what she referred to as "backyard breeders"---those that have a pet Golden and think selling puppies is a good way to make money (people who don't know anything about breeding a dog). She's not lumping Bentley into any kind of "group" but I thought it was interesting that both behaviorists I spoke with mentioned the same thing. She also asked me to get a "real" fence, which I will be doing.

Thanks!

Denise


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Denise*

Denise:

Thank God you are one of the people that really loves your dog and is commited to their well being. I am so glad you are getting a real fence.
Great that you've seen behaviorists, too.


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## Denise7839 (Mar 7, 2009)

UPDATE

Just wanted to give you all an update on Bentley. We (the family) have been working with a behaviorist for the past few weeks and things are going very well! Bentley has a number of issues, besides the out of control prey drive. He's also got some anxiety problems (he "stalks" lights and shadows, some separation anxiety) and has some food aggression toward the other dogs in the family. We've been managing that pretty well but now it seems to be really under control. I'm just amazed at the difference in this dog! He seems much happier and we are able to quickly and easily re-direct him when he gets anxious and/or starts focusing too much on something (another animal, shadow, light). His manners have also improved quite a bit and he listens SO much better! He's like a new dog! 

The great benefit is that the other dogs in the family have also seen a great improvement in their "manners" as well! We've made a lot of changes in how we do things and we are working on getting a "real" fence for the boys to play in when we aren't with them outside (they are no longer allowed to go outside by themselves, even when the electric fence works). 

I"m just amazed at the work that the behaviorist has done. Thank you so much for your great advice and support!!!

Denise


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

I am so happy to hear things are going so much better! I have been through what you have as my Asia bit another smal dog quite badly a couple of years ago. We also worked with a trainer to address her dominance issues and it has made all the difference. Your commitment to your dog is wonderful to see. They are so worth the extra work and are such loving wonderful dogs at heart.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks for the update! I'm so glad to hear that things are looking up. He's a lucky dog to have someone like you that didn't just give up on him.


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## spruce (Mar 13, 2008)

can you share what kind of advice/training are you getting regarding prey drive?


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## Denise7839 (Mar 7, 2009)

Hi Everyone,

It's been 8 months or so since the original incident with Bentley and the chihuahua. Things have been going really well and I've learned a lot about my dog and some of his problems.

His biggest issue seems to be extreme anxiety (separation as well as anything to do with light and shadows) and I'm convinced that some of his behavior is magnified by the anxiety. Bentley takes anxiety meds on a daily basis and that helps him so much! He also had some pretty bad food aggression towards other dogs (I guess I was so used to it I didn't realize how serious it really was). That is non-existent at this point! 

That's not to say all is perfect. Every so often, he will attack one of the other dogs for apparently no reason. It's quick and appears violent but 99% of the time no dog is hurt in any way. It's almost like it is for "show" but is very scary. This has happened 2 or 3 times since March. His prey drive is still high but not over the top and we are able to redirect him when he focuses on something too intensely. He's been tested with small dogs and shows no aggression towards them. 

I am thrilled with his progress and I love him so much! He's my big, dopey boy and loves everyone but especially his mommy. I thank God all the time for the behaviorist who saved his life! That may sounds sappy but that's how I feel. For anyone out there with a problem dog, don't give up!!! There is help out there!

Denise


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

Great to hear that things have improved so much and you have you big goofy boy back.


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## LuckyPup (Sep 9, 2009)

I just read trough this thread! I am happy Bentley is doing so well!


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

That is wonderful news. I am so gald that your big dopey boy is getting better. Keep up the good work. It is a team effort.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

I'm just now reading this thread from the start and I have to say I was so relieved for such a happy ending. I'm so happy that Bentley is doing better!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

thanks for stopping by with an update! I'm so pleased to hear things are going so well for you!


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

What Great News! I hadn't posted but was following along. So glad he's going so well. I hope his anxiety lessons over time and he's an even happier boy.


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

I am glad to read progress has been made.


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## Denise7839 (Mar 7, 2009)

It's four years later and I just re-read the thread. Bentley continues to be the "love of my life" and he's such a joy! We've not had any additional issues of the same kind but he still does have plenty of anxiety. At this moment, we're getting yet another summer thunderstorm and he always comes to me for comfort. He has lost two of his older "brothers," the yellow lab in question and another golden but still has his older lab sister, Bailey, and three cats (he's actually scared of them---or perhaps just very "respectful" of the,!lol!!). 

There definitely is hope for problem pets! Thanks again!!


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