# Wolfsblut or Farmina (DCM)



## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

With Charlie's recent diagnosis of a heart murmur and decreased heart function (confirmed by echo), I'm moving to Farmina Cod and Orange. There's a FB group (Taurine Deficiency in Golden Retrievers) that I recently joined. You might want to check it out. I have fed Charlie Zignature Lamb for the last 2 years and prior to that I fed him Zignature Trout and Salmon. My holistic vet thinks this is all a big ploy by the big dog food manufacturers to create fear in consumers and pick off the boutique players. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm open to doing a food trial to see if it makes a difference for Charlie. He gets rechecked in 6 months. I don't know much about the other brand you mentioned.


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## Neeko13 (Jul 10, 2010)

I've switched my two over to Farmina as well.. pumpkin, pomegranate and chix flavor..mine are doing well on it..I also mix a scoop of cottage cheese in their food every day for protein... sometimes also boiled chix...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'd be finding a new vet after such a ludicrous statement. 
This was brought to the attention of the big 3 by board certified cardiologists. 
Also, I'm sure the big 3 are a whole lot more worried about each other than the smaller boutique companies.
How many more dogs have to die before people (not referring to you, referring to the vet) get their heads out of the sand and stop refusing to accept scientific evidence when it conflicts with their personal opinions?



jennretz said:


> With Charlie's recent diagnosis of a heart murmur and decreased heart function (confirmed by echo), I'm moving to Farmina Cod and Orange. There's a FB group (Taurine Deficiency in Golden Retrievers) that I recently joined. You might want to check it out. I have fed Charlie Zignature Lamb for the last 2 years and prior to that I fed him Zignature Trout and Salmon. My holistic vet thinks this is all a big ploy by the big dog food manufacturers to create fear in consumers and pick off the boutique players. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm open to doing a food trial to see if it makes a difference for Charlie. He gets rechecked in 6 months. I don't know much about the other brand you mentioned.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I totally agree with Hotel4dogs. Vets that are discounting this issue are a bit dangerous and a big concern as this is in no way related to any food company trying to undermine another. 



With that said the Farmina looks to be a food that you don't have to worry about the DCM issue, there are however a few concerns I can see just in the guaranteed analysis of the Natural & Delicious Chicken GF and that is the level of Phosphorus at .95%, the max safe amount for Kidney health is .8% (.9% on a dry matter basis). Remember it's not protein but the phosphorous in the protein that leads to kidney disease.


The other issue is the omega 6 and 3's. You should have a 4-1 ratio or 5-1 ratios of omega 6 to 3's for correct skin and coat. This is 3-1 ratio so you can end up with an over oily skin which could lead to skin issues long term down the road. This isn't a major difference and if your dog tends to be a bit dry normally, this could work in the dogs favor.The levels are higher then the average food though which is good too. 



The next issue is an ingredient they added "Fructooligosaccharide" which is an artificial sweetener. Why they add this is a bit strange since dogs really just taste salt and fat, and only a hint of sweet. Dogs taste with their noses (they go by smell not taste). There are some disturbing side effects that come along with Fructooligosaccharides (FOS), such as, Gas, bloat, diarrhea, cramps and nausea and we certainly don't need our dogs bloating. They could be using FOS as a prebiotic but seems they could use a better source of prebiotic such as the pith of an orange (the spongy white stuff under the peel). That is a natural fiber (prebiotic) with no potential side effects. I'm just a big fan of companies that try to be smarter then they are and try to add ingredients that others don't have to say they have unique ingredients. This could be OK, but knowing what that ingredient is, not sure I'd want it in my dogs food. I'd have to find out why they are using it first.


Edit: Also, I forgot to mention, The ASH seems a bit high as well in this specific formula at 7.8%. Ash is what struvite crystals are made from (Kidney stone/urinary crystals). I believe ASH should be below 7%. The higher the ASH, the lower the quality of the meats used in the food. In a food this expensive, that shouldn't be an issue.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> I'd be finding a new vet after such a ludicrous statement.
> This was brought to the attention of the big 3 by board certified cardiologists.
> Also, I'm sure the big 3 are a whole lot more worried about each other than the smaller boutique companies.
> *How many more dogs have to die before people (not referring to you, referring to the vet) get their heads out of the sand and stop refusing to accept scientific evidence when it conflicts with their personal opinions?*


Right about on schedule... cue the internet conspiracy theorists who don't believe in science!! 

Seriously. Why do people believe anonymous info on the internet over board-certified cardiologists? I just don't get it. I don't get the suspicion of science.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

hotel4dogs said:


> I'd be finding a new vet after such a ludicrous statement.
> This was brought to the attention of the big 3 by board certified cardiologists.
> Also, I'm sure the big 3 are a whole lot more worried about each other than the smaller boutique companies.
> How many more dogs have to die before people (not referring to you, referring to the vet) get their heads out of the sand and stop refusing to accept scientific evidence when it conflicts with their personal opinions?


I should clarify I use a more hybrid approach. I have a primary vet and a cardiologist that I am also working with who are not holistic. The holistic vet (by her very profession) is going to be biased towards these grain-free, gluten-free and dairy free options. I use her primarily for CBD oil and acupuncture because my primary vet does not offer those options. I do think it's good to get multiple opinions, but you need to understand what you are being told and do your own research as well. 

I don't feed chicken kibble to my dogs. It's a high allergen so I'm going to try to cod and orange. Duke will remain on Stella & Chewy's rabbit mixed with Royal Canin Hydrolyzed protein as he has IBD and also can't digest fats. He needs a lean protein diet. Combined with his multiple food and environmental allergies and I'm going to stick with what works for him.

I'm planning to try the Farmina with Charlie and Rocky and get them off the Zignature. If it doesn't work, I'm curious what other foods folks recommend and why.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> I totally agree with Hotel4dogs. Vets that are discounting this issue are a bit dangerous and a big concern as this is in no way related to any food company trying to undermine another.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What do you think of the Farmina Cod and Orange Ancestral Grains?


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I've been feeding Farmina Cod and Orange ancestral grain to my 6month old puppy for several months. So far she's doing great and I really like the food, I'd highly recommend it. I've never heard of the other food, it could be good but maybe just not available/popular in the US?


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

jennretz said:


> What do you think of the Farmina Cod and Orange Ancestral Grains?



The ASH is better in that formula, under 7% but the phosphorous is still a bit high and it looks like they use Fructooligosaccharide in all of their formulas. I would want to have them explain that ingredient better. I think they are trying to use it as a prebiotic (Fiber as food for the probiotics) but wondering why if there are side effects are they using that instead of something easier on the stomachs. I can't find any info on if there are different types of this which eliminates the potential issues. Hence why I would call them and ask about it.


I just noticed that the fiber is a bit low too. Most foods are 3.5-5% , this formula is 2.9% so a bit low.


Edit: Just to add about the fiber. If your dog is on it and does well with stools then it's not really an issue but if your dog is on it and has or gets intermittent lose stools then that may be why.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

jennretz said:


> I should clarify I use a more hybrid approach. I have a primary vet and a cardiologist that I am also working with who are not holistic. The holistic vet (by her very profession) is going to be biased towards these grain-free, gluten-free and dairy free options. I use her primarily for CBD oil and acupuncture because my primary vet does not offer those options. I do think it's good to get multiple opinions, but you need to understand what you are being told and do your own research as well.
> 
> I don't feed chicken kibble to my dogs. It's a high allergen so I'm going to try to cod and orange. Duke will remain on Stella & Chewy's rabbit mixed with Royal Canin Hydrolyzed protein as he has IBD and also can't digest fats. He needs a lean protein diet. Combined with his multiple food and environmental allergies and I'm going to stick with what works for him.
> 
> I'm planning to try the Farmina with Charlie and Rocky and get them off the Zignature. If it doesn't work, I'm curious what other foods folks recommend and why.



Just to give some info about the chicken... chicken is in 85-90% of all dog food formulas and it is the 3rd ranks meat protein for allergies behind Beef and Lamb. Most vets that have enough nutritional knowledge to be dangerous will always tell you your dog is allergic to the chicken in your dogs food if it's reacting and more times then not it isn't the chicken. Most dogs develop the allergy to the grain proteins such as soy wheat corn and rices. It is because the dog develops the allergy to what it's fed most consistently and in the highest concentrations. So a fresh meat diet with a few grains after it is actually exposed to more grain proteins then grains proteins but if you have a meat meal like chicken meal before grains then you might look at the chicken as the culprit. 


I almost always feed a chicken based food and have for all of my past dogs and my dogs have never had an allergy or issue with chicken. The point is to just switch up the food every so often like 8 months or so and that keeps them from honing in on sensitivities to certain things like chicken or any other type of protein. Remember it's only amino acids (Proteins) that a dog can be allergic too, not fats or oils.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Duke had extensive testing done including having a camera inserted into his stomach and then traveled all the way through. He has inflammation in his intestines. He’s also had a full skin test work up for allergens under sedation. I do feed cooked turkey and chicken to my other two as training treats. If Duke accidentally gets some he tends to throw up for the next 24 hours. That’s why I’m so careful with him. It’s more I try to manage that he doesn’t accidentally ingest chicken than keeping others off chicken. 

I do add fiber to their diet (pumpkin). I’m going to try it and see how it goes. Really appreciate your insights.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Jennretz, well obviously if you know it is chicken that's an issue then that's a different story  I'm just saying some people just refuse to feed chick because dogs are just allergic to it kinda deal and that chicken just a bad rap and is overly blamed when it's not a lot of the times.


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## Roxfira (Oct 17, 2018)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> The ASH is better in that formula, under 7% but the phosphorous is still a bit high and it looks like they use Fructooligosaccharide in all of their formulas. I would want to have them explain that ingredient better. I think they are trying to use it as a prebiotic (Fiber as food for the probiotics) but wondering why if there are side effects are they using that instead of something easier on the stomachs. I can't find any info on if there are different types of this which eliminates the potential issues. Hence why I would call them and ask about it.
> 
> 
> I just noticed that the fiber is a bit low too. Most foods are 3.5-5% , this formula is 2.9% so a bit low.
> ...


There are a lot of brands that add FOS in their kibbles, so it's a bit difficult to choose. Thank you for all the helpful information! How about the ratio between Omega 3 and 6?


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## Roxfira (Oct 17, 2018)

ArchersMom said:


> I've been feeding Farmina Cod and Orange ancestral grain to my 6month old puppy for several months. So far she's doing great and I really like the food, I'd highly recommend it. I've never heard of the other food, it could be good but maybe just not available/popular in the US?


I see that most people feed the Cod & Orange to their dogs, so I'll give that one a try first. Thankfully mine eats everything and isn't difficult when it comes down to food (or anything else, really). Thank you for your answer!


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

I noticed they also had lamb formula, but it’s unclear to me if that protein source is suspected. Zignature Lamb, the one I’ve been feeding, is ranked as once of the worse. So I’m shying away from the lamb.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Roxfira said:


> There are a lot of brands that add FOS in their kibbles, so it's a bit difficult to choose. Thank you for all the helpful information! How about the ratio between Omega 3 and 6?





The Omega 6 and 3's are reversed in the Farmina Cod and Orange Ancestral Grains diet. omega 6 is 1.6% and omega 3s is at 2.3%. I have only seen this one other time in the Verus Advanced Opticoat Menhaden and potato. I know the formulator and owner of this food. He told me this was done for dogs with high sensitivities as Omega 3 is a serious anti-inflammatory and sense reactions on the skin is actual inflammation. This Russell said was generally not long term as the skin would get too oily over time and potentially cause issues on the skin. So personally the more i dive into this formula it is one that I wouldn't feed, st least not long term but as a formula for rotating with.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

jennretz said:


> With Charlie's recent diagnosis of a heart murmur and decreased heart function (confirmed by echo), I'm moving to Farmina Cod and Orange. There's a FB group (Taurine Deficiency in Golden Retrievers) that I recently joined. You might want to check it out. I have fed Charlie Zignature Lamb for the last 2 years and prior to that I fed him Zignature Trout and Salmon. My holistic vet thinks this is all a big ploy by the big dog food manufacturers to create fear in consumers and pick off the boutique players. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm open to doing a food trial to see if it makes a difference for Charlie. He gets rechecked in 6 months.  I don't know much about the other brand you mentioned.


Dr. Stern at UC Davis isn't employed by big dog food, and neither is the FDA. Zignature seems especially problematic, and Charlie seems to offer you living proof your holistic vet might need to consider the evidence. Farmina ancestral grains seems okay, but the whole strategy of avoiding boutique foods without intensive live feed trials seems worth considering for a dog in Charlie's paws. Why not put him on Pro Plan 30-20 or Eukanuba and see if you can tackle the heart issue first and stabilize him, and then if you really feel boutique is better slowly experiment? I can't see going small batch boutique to boutique when you already have a problem?


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## Roxfira (Oct 17, 2018)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> The Omega 6 and 3's are reversed in the Farmina Cod and Orange Ancestral Grains diet. omega 6 is 1.6% and omega 3s is at 2.3%. I have only seen this one other time in the Verus Advanced Opticoat Menhaden and potato. I know the formulator and owner of this food. He told me this was done for dogs with high sensitivities as Omega 3 is a serious anti-inflammatory and sense reactions on the skin is actual inflammation. This Russell said was generally not long term as the skin would get too oily over time and potentially cause issues on the skin. So personally the more i dive into this formula it is one that I wouldn't feed, st least not long term but as a formula for rotating with.


Thank you!! One more question, I've seen in the grain free and pumpkin versions that Farmina also adds pea starch (20%) and pea fiber. Aren't these also legumes that may cause DCM? Or is it better to stay with Ancestral Grain? In the Facebook group taurine deficiency they also recommend RC GR, but I'm hesitating because the first ingredients are all grains so I'm a bit wondering about that. In the Ancestral grain they add oats which I think might be better? It's really difficult nowadays to find a good food for our dogs


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Curious if anyone is familiar with this brand?

https://www.wellnesspetfood.com/nat...simple-limited-ingredient-lamb-oatmeal-recipe




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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Roxfira said:


> Maggie'sVoice said:
> 
> 
> > The Omega 6 and 3's are reversed in the Farmina Cod and Orange Ancestral Grains diet. omega 6 is 1.6% and omega 3s is at 2.3%. I have only seen this one other time in the Verus Advanced Opticoat Menhaden and potato. I know the formulator and owner of this food. He told me this was done for dogs with high sensitivities as Omega 3 is a serious anti-inflammatory and sense reactions on the skin is actual inflammation. This Russell said was generally not long term as the skin would get too oily over time and potentially cause issues on the skin. So personally the more i dive into this formula it is one that I wouldn't feed, st least not long term but as a formula for rotating with.
> ...


Yeah anything with pea in it in significant amounts of stay away from. I feed Precise Holistic large breed puppy and not the adult and it does have 1 pea ingredient which is the 17th ingredient. The study has mentioned keep it to a min number of leggings and out of the to 10 ingredients. 

Royal Canin is specific food doing specific things for Golden's. I'm not as big of a fan of food with heavy amounts of grain. It will do the job, but may have to feed more. You can get good foods heavy in grain like RC or Purina and foods like Precise Holistic and others that are more meat based. At that point it's what you prefer


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

jennretz said:


> Curious if anyone is familiar with this brand?
> 
> https://www.wellnesspetfood.com/nat...simple-limited-ingredient-lamb-oatmeal-recipe
> 
> ...


I'm very familiar with Wellness. It was very very good about 15 years ago, especially when it was still a baked kibble instead of extruded. The simple formulas have a bit of pea in it and a lamb based food is already behind the other meats with the amount of available taurine. But if you look at the ingredients, you'll notice they put added taurine quite high in the list. Not sure if this is enough or not so if you feed this with the current info out about DCM treated to foods, I'd test the taurine levels for your dog once every 3 months if you need to feed this because it's working for allergies


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## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

Wanted to add for OP, that lamb is low in taurine which is going to raise risk for DCM. Dr. Karen Becker, holistic vet, recommends giving sardines once weekly as it is high in taurine. Is anyone here giving sardines? I too am curious as to what everyone is feeding as the day will be coming soon, hopefully, that another golden puppy will be coming into our life. Not looking forward to stressing over what food to give, so will be looking for advise too.


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## Roxfira (Oct 17, 2018)

debbie624 said:


> Wanted to add for OP, that lamb is low in taurine which is going to raise risk for DCM. Dr. Karen Becker, holistic vet, recommends giving sardines once weekly as it is high in taurine. Is anyone here giving sardines? I too am curious as to what everyone is feeding as the day will be coming soon, hopefully, that another golden puppy will be coming into our life. Not looking forward to stressing over what food to give, so will be looking for advise too.


Thank you for telling me this. I'll add sardines once a week to her menu. Too bad Ella's having a reaction on Eukanuba Adult Large Breed Lamb & Rice, she did very well on this until last month. Although Eukanuba also has Nature+ in their choices, the normal variant and the Grain Free. The normal Nature+ actually also looks pretty okay, and you can switch between lamb and salmon and poultry. I ordered a small bag of Eukanuba Nature+ Salmon to try that first, but if her skin doesn't get better on it, I'll change to Farmina Ancestral Grain.


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## Golden9 (Jun 13, 2016)

So sorry for Ella to be going thru these health issues so young. I went thru similar issues with my first golden as I was so nieve, and did as the vet said, and the issues never went away, as the allapathic vets had no real solution to heal. After a lifetime of suffering from all the vaccines, I did more and more research, and came to learn that all the issues my Golden had, were caused by the toxic vaccines. It has made me so angry that no one would help or support real pet health. My other pets also suffered from overvaccination. As she got older all the health issues just got worse, more of them. Vets only wanted to make more money from the more health issues. They never wanted her to heal. It cost me many thousands, for all my pets. The vets laughed all the way to the bank, while my pets suffered. But thru all this, I knew there is a lesson to be learned, as i watched family members also do the toxic vaccines and daily chemical drugs to also suffer and die from cancer too. So I have spent years researching health, and sure enough, toxic vaccines and toxic chemical medications, toxic flea tick pesticides, caused all these issues in my Golden. So my next Goldens only use holistic, homeopathic or naturopathic veterinarians, vaccine nosodes, and real health care so the whole body is healthy and balanced. The difference is so amazing. My Goldens are so healthy now with no health issues. For dog food, I buy mostly frozen ground raw meat with NO hpp, no pressurization, no radiation, no pasteurization. Add a whole organic EGG with shell for calcium, a handful of frozen GREEN BEAN for fiber and firm poop (no canned beans as canned causes diarrhea), teaspoon of CHIA seeds for fiber and firm poop, a tablespoon of plain KEFIR for probiotics for better digestion of nutrients, no gas, and firm poop. Add a KELP tablet for iodine, selenium tablet, milk thistle capsule for liver support. During the warm season, add a Neem capsule and Garlic capsule to help repel bugs. Occasionally add the powder canine supplement from Dr Andrew Jones, and some other vets that make excellent nutritional powder supplements. No kibble at all ever, Re: kibble read Food That Pets Die For by Ann Martin to learn more about the pet food kibble industry why it makes billions while producing very low nutrition food. 

If you want to feed a dry food, try the Dehydrated Raw or Dehydrated Cooked meat and veggies at OnlyNaturalPet .com , pour a little salmon oil or cod liver oil or coconut oil or real pure butter on top and then that makes the dehydrated meat and veggies taste much better. Another good dog food is the FreshPet .com lightly cooked meat, with veggies and fruit, in the fridge in the pet aisle as costco, target and some grocery stores. 

It takes time to implement these changes as you learn about real health, but as you make the changes for your Goldens and other pets, and find where to buy healthy products, and find there are some honest veterinarians that have true health pet tips to help guide you. Your pets health will improve. And when you adopt a new golden, you can start them off in a healthy direction from the beginning. Sign up for free enewsletter by Dr Will Falconer at VitalAnimal .com Lots of pet health tips to teach you how to have healthy pets. Also Rosemary Levesque at SecondNatureHealing .com and DogsNaturallyMagazine .com and so many more. But that will get you started. With hugs and kisses to Ella.


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