# First agility class - details provided and advice needed!



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Oh I'm jealous you're taking a class!

1. My rule of thumb is act as if every unknown dog could be aggressive towards your dog, and your dog could be aggressive towards any strange dog. If you react that way, you will prevent a lot of altercations from ever being able to occur. In that particular situation I would have had my dog come sit between my legs, facing me, until the lady was tending to her own dog again. 

2. I don't go for pure shaping, I don't have the patience for it. I will do what I need to help the process along. For teaching the dogs to put their feet on something, I will hold a treat above the object and encourage the dog to get it. At some point the dog should put a paw on the object in their attempts to get at the treat. That's when I mark and reward. Every dog I have taught that way have learned to put their paws up in one session.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> 1. My rule of thumb is act as if every unknown dog could be aggressive towards your dog, and your dog could be aggressive towards any strange dog. If you react that way, you will prevent a lot of altercations from ever being able to occur. In that particular situation I would have had my dog come sit between my legs, facing me, until the lady was tending to her own dog again.


Thanks for the advice! I feel okay about it because I think I have pinpointed exactly what his trigger is. It is only when he is lying down with my foot on his leash - a position that puts him low to the ground and without a way to get up really or get away, which I would imagine is a stressful place to be in. And he only reacts this way to dogs that are being "rude" - out of control or staring nonstop at him. He is fine with polite dogs and with all dogs when he is standing or sitting, it is just this lying down position that seems to cause him to feel more threatened. 

Time to manage!!


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## toliva (Nov 24, 2011)

When we did our agility class, I learned two things very quickly: Stay as far as possible from the other dogs and bring extremely high value treats and a hungry dog. For us, my problem is that Zeke thinks every dog is his long lost best friend and clearly would love to play. Problem was, we had a few dominant & aggressive dogs in the class. One of them went after Zeke, so after that we sat on the ends of the rows, stayed way back in line for skills, that kind of thing. Definitely use Riley's excellent focusing skills in between learning session to avoid problems.

Jodie has good advice with the stool. Maybe even before you come up to the stool you could toss some treats on the floor to "break" his focus from you. Lure him in with a delicious treat he can't resist.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

toliva said:


> Jodie has good advice with the stool. Maybe even before you come up to the stool you could toss some treats on the floor to "break" his focus from you. Lure him in with a delicious treat he can't resist.


Haha I tried this but I have been working "leave it" and attention in the face of distractions including food that there was just no deterring him!! Silly dog, it was frustrating but so darn cute. Everyone was laughing at us haha!


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## toliva (Nov 24, 2011)

vcm5 said:


> Haha I tried this but I have been working "leave it" and attention in the face of distractions including food that there was just no deterring him!! Silly dog, it was frustrating but so darn cute. Everyone was laughing at us haha!


Hahaha, that is cute. Good for him for being so obedient!

How about "get it"? I mean, after he leaves it, is there a release command of some kind or something you tell him that lets him get the thing he is leaving? Well, if not, he is so smart, he will get the stool thing. You could practice at home and start with just looking at the stool you mark & treat, and go from there.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Advice for #1: If being forced into a down-stay and approached by other dogs is making Riley nervous enough to bark or lunge, then ask the instructor for help in preventing those situations. You need to be sitting somewhere that dogs can't come up and give Riley hard stares. BTW - his strong reaction to that is pretty normal and doesn't indicate a behavioral problem on his part. Let him have lots of experiences lying down where he's not confronted so he can learn to be more comfortable. Having other dogs walking around farther away and without confronting him with stares will help him learn more confidence and relaxation.

Advice for #2: Patience. During your shaping exercise, Riley is offering a previously successful behavior (giving good boy attention). He's been rewarded for that a lot, so it's a really strong behavior. That's not necessarily a problem, even though it's interfering right now. It's a good thing because you already have a strong work and reward pattern with him. It might be best to wait him out rather than luring him to break away. You want to teach him that in some situations (like when you're standing there, looking expectantly at him with a plank next to you), you want him to break eye contact and try a few other things. If you actively lure him, he won't start to offer creative behaviors as quickly since you'll have provided a cue first. That may mean that he'll decided that the game is that he gives you attention until you offer a cue.

Try looking at him and then looking at the object and then looking back at him. I assume you're using a clicker for this, but whatever your marker is, use it for even the tiniest change toward the object. If he so much as looks at it, click and treat. Shaping is all about using good timing to build on little things.

The object itself is probably irrelevant right now. What you're teaching Riley is to offer creative behaviors in relation to the object until he gives you want you want (i.e., what leads to the reward). Right now, he only has one trick in that box, which is staring at you. You can keep the command that saying "Riley" means look at your face but add that when you're around objects and waiting, he should try interacting with them. The less you lure him, the quicker he'll learn that.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

I agree with what everyone has said so far.

1. I am a huge believer that you treat every unknown dog as if it is agressive until proven otherwise. This means I do not let my dogs approach other dogs, I do not let other dogs approach my dogs until their owners have my permission, and I keep my dog at a respectible distance, especially in situations like classes or trials. Jade loves all dogs and all people, but Layla is a little different. She is not a fan of all new dogs (unless they are Goldens!). Layla is extremely submissive, so really pushy and exuberant dogs scare her. Layla will show her teeth at these dogs and even nip at them in frustration if they do not get the message. Is this her fault? In all of the situations this has happened in, no. Layla gave a clear message to the other dog that she doesn't like to be messed with. I have to treat her like she is an aggressive dog, which she is not, because I don't want to stress her out and I certainly do not want other owners to think I own an aggressive dog. Sadly, many owners see a dog show its teach and pin them blame on that dog. You have to be looking at the whole picture. Dogs all have different personalities. Just like people, some situations you may be comfortable and confident in. These same situations, I may feel very uneasy. I would probably be very upset if you continue to push my buttons and force me into a situation I do not want to be in. I would keep Riley close to you and remind the owners who should be better watching their dogs that Riley is a "bubble dog". He needs his personal space.

2. I have always done a mixture of shaping and more traditional obedience training. Shaping is an excellent tool to have. It teaches the dog how to learn. The kind of shaping I teach involves a clicker, which has been an awesome tool especially with training my puppy Jade. Really if Riley will offer you anything, even just glancing away from you, mark and reward. Start walking up to the step stool. Chances are, if you are walking towards the stool, he will not be looking at you the entire time, especially if you are just walking to it, not heeling to it. Reward even the slightest attention off of you and onto the stool. In agility, unlike obedience, we want the dog to pay more attention to the environment. This has to be balanced with attention on the handler. You don't want your dog to ignore you and simply do whatever obstacle they think comes next, but you also can't have your dog head checking you, spinning in front of obstacles to see where you are (and dropping bars in the process). You want your dog to commit to obstacles by himself so that you can be where you need to be, and then to pay close attention to your body language and verbal cues.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Do what works for you and your dog. I personally don't want my dog offering a bunch of creative behaviors, I'd rather show/tell them exactly what I want than have them guess.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> Do what works for you and your dog. I personally don't want my dog offering a bunch of creative behaviors, I'd rather show/tell them exactly what I want than have them guess.


It comes down a difference in training philosophy, and the one at the class Riley's in is one that's mainstream among agility people. You teach your dog to be creative and you shape his behavior through rewards. It's a fundamental mindset difference. In a very real sense, you are showing and telling your dog what to do.

I guess the basic belief difference is how effective it is to "show" by forcing or luring the dog vs. getting him to offer something and then rewarding it. I'm not sure that one is automatically or always better than the other, but they're very different training mindsets.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I guess the basic belief difference is how effective it is to "show" by forcing or luring the dog vs. getting him to offer something and then rewarding it. I'm not sure that one is automatically or always better than the other, but they're very different training mindsets.


Exactly, I think there is a place for both methods of training in agility. I would definitely not shape something like weave poles, for example, but I definitely shape behaviors like an automatic down on the table.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

goldengirls550 said:


> Exactly, I think there is a place for both methods of training in agility. I would definitely not shape something like weave poles, for example, but I definitely shape behaviors like an automatic down on the table.


That's funny, I pretty much did shape weave poles, but teach a down through luring.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> That's funny, I pretty much did shape weave poles, but teach a down through luring.


I taught Jade's command down through luring, but I wanted to shape the automatic down on the table so he would down every time without me having to say down. Needless to say, Jade learned pretty quickly great things happen when he hits the table in a down position right when he gets on. I will most likely be teaching weave poles through the channel method, so I'm not really sure if that counts as shaping....


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

goldengirls550 said:


> I taught Jade's command down through luring, but I wanted to shape the automatic down on the table so he would down every time without me having to say down. Needless to say, Jade learned pretty quickly great things happen when he hits the table in a down position right when he gets on. I will most likely be teaching weave poles through the channel method, so I'm not really sure if that counts as shaping....


I used 2x2. Although even Susan says to tell the dog as soon as they do something wrong and have them start over. And if my dog kept making the wrong entrance over and over I would use my body to block that wrong entrance. So not 100% pure shaping, but the closest I'm ever likely to come.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> I used 2x2. Although even Susan says to tell the dog as soon as they do something wrong and have them start over. And if my dog kept making the wrong entrance over and over I would use my body to block that wrong entrance. So not 100% pure shaping, but the closest I'm ever likely to come.


I guess it depends how you start the 2X2. Do you wait for the dog to enter the two poles and offer the behavior, or do you "show" them how to find the entrance? I have never done 2X2's before. I worked weave-o-matics with Layla and supplemented that by working incredibly difficult entrances. I can now send Layla into the poles so that she has to make a 180 degree turn from the wrong side of the poles! Last week in practice, I found out I can blind cross the poles as well. 

I may do a little 2X2 for difficult entrances with Jade, but my concern with just doing 2X2 is I have heard of some dogs that have difficulties finding entrances straight (blowing past the weaves) because difficult entrances seem to be emphasized. So, I think the plan is to do 2X2 for difficult entrances and work channels for speed and straight entrances.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

You're such a good mommy, would love to see video of him learning


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

goldengirls550 said:


> I guess it depends how you start the 2X2. Do you wait for the dog to enter the two poles and offer the behavior, or do you "show" them how to find the entrance? I have never done 2X2's before. I worked weave-o-matics with Layla and supplemented that by working incredibly difficult entrances. I can now send Layla into the poles so that she has to make a 180 degree turn from the wrong side of the poles! Last week in practice, I found out I can blind cross the poles as well.
> 
> I may do a little 2X2 for difficult entrances with Jade, but my concern with just doing 2X2 is I have heard of some dogs that have difficulties finding entrances straight (blowing past the weaves) because difficult entrances seem to be emphasized. So, I think the plan is to do 2X2 for difficult entrances and work channels for speed and straight entrances.



You wait for them to find the entrance on their own. Which Flip did pretty quickly, after realizing that hitting the poles with his paw repeatedly was not what I wanted. If he would have gotten stuck for a long time I would have done something to help him out, but he didn't need it so I followed the program.

I think putting too much emphasis on difficult entries and not enough on straight entries is an issue of the individual trainer, not the program itself. It just depends on how often you practice the different entries. I haven't seen that to be a problem myself.

I LOVE the 2x2 method, my dog was doing six straight poles on day four, and by day six he was really blasting through through them - head down, driving forward. I have no interest in going past novice so I stopped at that point with six poles. And I followed the program exactly, with the exception like I said of when he would get stuck on taking the wrong entrance over and over, I would use my body to block that way.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

I can't believe I didn't post here again, I was sure that I had - I've been reading all the responses though!! Thanks so much for all the advice!

This week I decided to go a little different and instead of a stool, since we both seem to have a bit of a block with that, I decided to teach "Go to your mat" (the goal being to run to the mat and lie down and not get up) using the same kind of shaping principles - putting the mat out and reinforcing approximations - first for looking at it, then a paw on it, then getting on it, all the way until he lied down on it, etc. 

I was amazed how quickly he got it! He is awesome at this and I think it was a good confidence builder (probably more for me!) and we can try the stool again!


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