# (Long) Hoping for some trainers help...



## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

Have you ever tried teaching her a "show style heel"? If not you could try and work on her with super high value treats like birds (I know slightly gross healing with a dead bird but it really gets there attention), steak, their favorite toy, etc. I have found it easier to teach a show heel first, and for most of my goldens walking on a loose leash then comes naturally.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I would suggest 'Control Unleashed'. 

It has many really good ideas and some that do not appear to make much sense until you actual try them.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I've been working with my lab who has dog aggression issues using techniques from BAT training. I've seen a lot of progress with him
Here is a site about it. Honey would fall under the frustrated greeter
Official Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) site: humane help for aggression, frustration, and fear in dogs, horses, and other animals.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I know your post is centered on your walks. I'd like to ask about her behavior at home. I know you've posted pictures of her watching the squirrels. Does she want to chase them there, in the yard, too?

If you categorize other dogs and animals as "distractions" then it sounds like she needs more basic obedience practice. She should be able to sit for you whether there's a distraction or not. That would be the goal.

I'm hoping you say she is just as fascinated with the squirrels at home as she is on walks because then you have a great training field right in you own back yard. Finding a way to keep her focused on you is your challenge. 

We have a saying with the horses: if we can't get 'it' at home, we'll never get it at a show.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Have you worked with a certified behavior consultant or just trainers? If not, that's what I would recommend. It sounds like you have a few different issues going on that would be hard to address via the internet. I think someone that could come observe the various behaviors you'd like to alter would be most helpful. 

Find Dog, Cat, Parrot and Horse Behavior Consultants | IAABC


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## Cathy's Gunner (Dec 4, 2008)

Yes, she is obsessed with squirrels inside and out of the house.

I will check out Control Unleashed and BAT training.

Honey pulls so hard it's tough keeping her in any kind of heel position.

I need to know which type of collar is best for this type of dog.

The two trainers were certified in behavior.

Reading some of Brian Tippy (tippy kayak) and Jill Simmons comments in another thread it looks like some of my techniques from these other trainers are different from what they believe. I'll be more than happy to try new things. 

Thanks for all the suggestions and I'm hoping for more.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

With Guinness I use a freedom harness. It has a front o-ring attachment as well as a martingale type of back loop. It works quite well for him, it did take me a bit of getting used to using 2 leashes on him
2 Hounds Wholesale - No-Pull Harness - Freedom No Pull Harness Training Package (Black/Silver)

I tried the easy walk on him, but it really tore up his armpits. The freedom has velvet there


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

The EWH sometimes works better if you use it upside down. So the one strap that's a different color than the other 2 so you know it goes under the belly, refit it so that that strap goes over the shoulder blades. Worth a shot. Based on what you've said about her behavior, I'd go with a harness, personally.


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## Cathy's Gunner (Dec 4, 2008)

Bumping up


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I second Control Unleashed! I am sending you a private message.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Oh dear! I am so sorry you are going through this! Hopefully you are getting the help you need! Good Luck!


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## Cathy's Gunner (Dec 4, 2008)

Bumping up


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I am sorry you haven't had much luck with the trainers. 

What do you do when Honey pulls on the leash? Do you give her any correction or do you pull back to keep from falling over, or does she just pull you along? 

I think Control Unleashed will help with her impulse control. I would eventually just move to stimulating her by sitting on a bench where dogs will pass at a distance. Get her used to big, small, and unknown dogs passing by as a part of life. Right now every time she pulls you toward another house or dog and gets a step closer to what she "wants" she is being reinforced. It sounds like "being a tree" hasn't worked and it is time to consider leash or collar corrections. 


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

I may have missed this, but have you worked on strong eye contact or training other behaviors that are incompatible with lunging while out on walks?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Hey - just found this. Thanks for the shout out!

I wish you lived out east! Honey is a perfect candidate for family dog basics at Paws and I always love having more Goldies in our classes. They're secretly my favorite dog students (but don't tell anyone!).

I second (or it's like "fourth" at this point) Control Unleashed. It is geared exactly at the kind of issues you're working on.

As you wait for your copy to arrive in the mail, lol, here's my advice. First, deep breath. You sound really stressed out by Honey's behavior, and your stress will just feed her anxiety. She is getting too worked up in some situations, so you need to find ways to pull that bad energy out of the situation or to find outlets for it. If you bring bad or anxious energy to the situation, it'll go right down the leash. I know that sounds hippy-dippy, but it's just a simple way of putting something very commonsense and scientific: dogs are social animals who can read our anxiety and respond with their own. "Oh, you're anxious? I should be anxious too."

Second, temporarily stop entering situations where she goes "over threshold." That means any situation where she's too wild for you to get any kind of attention or good behavior out of her. If she's whining, barking, jumping, pulling, and totally ignoring you, you're just going to get upset, which will raise her energy even more, and you don't have any room to teach her what you want and reward her for it. Obviously, you can't 100% control the world so she's never in those situations, but avoid them when it's practical so you can spend time together and practice desired behavior in more controlled environments and spend the absolute minimum amount of time practicing undesired behavior. Dogs do what they practice.

Third, find a strong, research-based program (like Control Unleashed) and stick to it. It sounds like Honey has had a lot of different messages over the last year, so she is probably pretty confused in addition to being overstimulated. When a dog has practiced an undesired behavior or emotional state many times, it takes some time to teach them a new pattern. And, sometimes, they briefly get worse right before a technique is about to work (see extinction burst for more info).

Fourth, find a situation where you can set her up to succeed. That might mean a lot of work in a room in the house or the backyard. You want an environment where you stand a good chance of being the most interesting thing. A pocketful of yummy treats and/or a fun squeaky toy and some fun, low-key drilling of basic behavior helps set the groundwork for behaviors that can stand up against distraction. You want to teach her a word that means "look at me" and practice it around gradually increasing levels of distraction so you can build and maintain a connection that will hold up, even when exciting squirrels run by. But you're not going to be at squirrel-proof levels right away, so you need a squirrel-free environment to begin with.

Fifth, a CPDT trainer might be a good person to have on hand for private lessons, or perhaps you can even find a CPDT-run training center near you. Here's a page where you can search for CPDTs by zip code. That search won't find every great trainer in your area, but it's not a bad place to start.

Sixth, you can train a dog to take treats with a soft mouth. Many, many dogs need some guidance with this. Try a soft mouth exercise like this: Hold a soft treat in your closed fist with just a teeny bit poking out by your thumb. Let your pup try to get it. If her teeth touch skin, cover the treat with your thumb. When she resorts to licking and keeping her teeth clear, open up and let her have it. Repeat. You want to teach her that a soft mouth leads to the treat coming loose and that a hard mouth leads to it disappearing further into your hand. This takes some practice, but most dogs learn to be a lot gentler.

I think I hit all the pieces from your first post. Hope that helps!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

PS - I know you're probably frustrated right now, but the kind of dog you're describing (drivey, high energy, intelligent) is my favorite kind of Golden. They make for extraordinary companions if you can give them a "job" and the right outlets for their drive.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

We recently adopted Darcy. She too was very nippy and a fast eater. I have gone thru 3 months of teaching soft mouth. She was underweight and was not holding her food down. She would poop three to four times a day. We started her on Acetylator which helped her keep the food down and also helped with her fast eating habit. I have fed her slowly and mostly from the finger and made her wait for her food.
We have had her now for 3 months and it is finally improving. 

I quit walking in the neighborhood as she would bark the moment she heard a dog coming outside. Luckily we have a bigger yard and that's where we walked - first months both on the leash and afterwards off leash. She still barks when she hears any motion across the street. First I tell her to knock it off, the moment she does that I throw a frisbee for her in the opposite direction.


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## Cathy's Gunner (Dec 4, 2008)

I appreciate everyone's advise and recommendations. There are so many different ways that trainers teach it is all so overwhelming....

Thank you Brian for getting back with me so quickly. I have mentioned before that I wished I lived near you or Jill to take your classes. I've even thought about taking a road trip (once I retire) and take some private lessons....

I'm not sure if Control Unleashed is at our local bookstore but I am stopping on my way home from work tonight to see if I can get it.

Jenn warned me about my stress going down the leash to add to Honey's anxiety. I have tried my best to stay calm but sometimes I'm sure my stress shows. She has so many little things that need to be corrected it's all overwhelming.

I did use CPDT trainers for Honey. Unfortunately, neither one proved to help. It's not saying that if I sayed with them for months and months that something would have clicked but financially I couldn't afford them. They gave me tools that they thought would help and they didn't. I've already read on some of your other post that the quick snap and "NO" are not the way to go. They recommended these types of corrections. Honey is very resilient and nothing seems to bother her (prong or shock collar). I dislike both of them but they were recommended. What type of collar would your recommend, Brian?

I did take her to another city where there were less distractions but it's not alway possible to go there with time issues. I try to go on different streets where she doesn't know the houses where the dogs live. My city is full of dogs so there is hardly any place I can go where we won't see a dog or hear one at their fence. I've found that walking her in the dark or early mornings there are less distractions (except for the wild little creatures) LOL

I'm going to really work hard on the soft mouth exercise this weekend. I took a bunch of treats with us yesterday and she was terrible with snapping at me to get it. She lived with two other Goldens before us and I think that is why she gets so aggressive with her food/treats. My poor boy Gunner eats very slow and even chews his treats into pieces that fall on the floor. Honey will plow him over to get his treats when he drops them. Honey has actually thrown up a semi-solid treat because she is so anxious she just swallows it without chewing.

I am so anxious to be retired so I can spend quality time with each dog separately. I know that is what is needed for Honey. I know Gunner will be happy to have me to himself and he walks like a dream. Here's hoping that by next spring or summer Honey will be much better thanks to all the advise.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Cathy's Gunner said:


> I did use CPDT trainers for Honey. Unfortunately, neither one proved to help. It's not saying that if I sayed with them for months and months that something would have clicked but financially I couldn't afford them. They gave me tools that they thought would help and they didn't. I've already read on some of your other post that the quick snap and "NO" are not the way to go. They recommended these types of corrections. Honey is very resilient and nothing seems to bother her (prong or shock collar). I dislike both of them but they were recommended. What type of collar would your recommend, Brian?


FYI - if your CPDT trainers are recommending prong collars or e-collars, they might have CPDT certs, but they're ignoring the APDT's position statement on "dog-friendly" training. I recommend people use the CPDT search because I hope it results in trainers who use friendly, non-aversive, contemporary methods. However, the APDT does not force its members and certified trainers to train in any particular way or to comply with its position statement.

I wouldn't use things that bother her by causing discomfort. It obviously isn't working, and I don't think it's a good first-line choice anyway.

As far as managing her while she's still not trained for polite walking and paying attention, front-attaching harnesses are the gentlest piece of equipment I know that still provides you the leverage to manage a relatively large, strong dog who is being wild. Halter-style things can work too, but they really annoy some dogs and seem to interfere with training, so I no longer suggest them as a first-line solution.

We try to have people train on a flat collar or harness in our classes, and chokes and prongs are not allowed. Slips are allowed for breed classes and agility, but not for delivering corrections.

Try to teach Honey that pulling causes you to change direction, and staying with you causes you to walk faster and/or reward her. If you reward with food, reward with the hand that is on the same side as the dog, and give the treat with your hand down at your side so the dog is in the desired position at the moment she gets the treat. Don't reach out ahead of yourself to give treats because the dog is ahead. Hold the treat at your side and make her come around to the right position to get it. I often trap a treat between thumb and palm with my hand straight down at my side, fingertips toward the ground, treat facing behind me. That makes the dog come right next to me to get it. That allows you to reward the dog for the choice to come into position, rather than pulling or luring them there. Once you get coordinated about having the leash in the opposite hand and the treat in the dog-side hand, you can hopefully reward while still moving, so the dog learns they can get rewarded for coming to your side and walking in the desired spot. It takes humans a little bit to get a hang of the coordination part, so don't give up.



Cathy's Gunner said:


> I've found that walking her in the dark or early mornings there are less distractions (except for the wild little creatures) LOL


This is what I mean by management. If early walks provide fewer opportunities to practice undesired behavior, that's what I'd do. And I'd devote several short sessions a day to practicing good leash behavior indoors or in the backyard. You can also practice that treat delivery I just described indoors, without a leash. Let her choose to come into a loose heel position as you walk around together, and show her that she can be rewarded by playing the loose heel game with you. Lots of short sessions in the house and backyard will help lay groundwork for the behavior outdoors. If she has a lot of practice in the easy settings, you stand a stronger chance of finding things to reward in the harder settings.



Cathy's Gunner said:


> I'm going to really work hard on the soft mouth exercise this weekend. I took a bunch of treats with us yesterday and she was terrible with snapping at me to get it.


If she's too crazy with a really yummy treat, have her practice with lower value treats to start. And when you're practicing behaviors she really already knows (like sit), don't be afraid to make her give soft mouth for those rewards too.



Cathy's Gunner said:


> I am so anxious to be retired so I can spend quality time with each dog separately. I know that is what is needed for Honey. I know Gunner will be happy to have me to himself and he walks like a dream. Here's hoping that by next spring or summer Honey will be much better thanks to all the advise.


Yeah - split 'em up. Give Gunner his walk, and don't forget to bring a few treats for him too! In fact, you can practice your loose leash rewarding skills with your easy dog so you can get the hang of coordinating the leash, the treats, and the delivery in the right position. Gunner will probably have a blast with it, and you'll gain some practice and confidence so you don't feel so frazzled when you're doing it with Honey.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm not sure where in MI you are but here is a trainer in Lansing
Angie Falcsik

Her bio mentions that she uses BAT training. It might be worth giving her a call and getting a consult to see if you are interested
BAT training was developed by Grisha Stewart and uses functional rewards to train the dog. They get what they want by using calming signals. For an aggressive dog, what they really want is the other dog or object to go away. This is what I've been working on with Guinness. We started out by as soon as he saw a dog, but before he reacted to it by turning around and walking the other way. The walking away is the reward. Next step is for him to notice the dog, he will turn his ears toward the dog or even just look in the dogs direction. I stop walking and wait for him to give some sort of calming signal (either looking towards me, sniffing the ground, something where he relaxes enough to turn away from the dog). I click and turn and walk away. The walking away is his reward. What's happening is he is learning to self calm and is learning that he has control over his environment. We can actually get much closer to other dogs now. The key is to always keep him way under his threshold so he can still function. With Guinness I actually started out with a large lifelike dog for his training. As soon as he saw it he would tense up. I turned around and got him to a distance where he could see it but wasn't concerned about it yet. Within 20 min I could get him close to the dummy dog without reacting. I've gotten him to the points on walks where I just have to go out to the street to pass another dog on the sidewalk. I used to have to cross the street and move up into someone's driveway and out him in a sit constantly feeding him cheese to keep his attention.

Kenzie I'm deciding is a frustrated greeter and I need to start working with her. In her case her reward will be moving towards whatever it is. At a distance below her threshold I will wait for her to give those same calming signals, click and move ahead a few steps. Again the key is to keep them below threshold at all times.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Not every method works for every dog. For our resident former 'wild child when on a leash' (Smooch) the changing direction,using treats and stopping when she was out of control did absolutely nothing. She didn't care what direction we were going, she just wanted to go there! It made for a long and frustrating walk or we just went home. 

Ultimately verbal corrections and, if necessary, a quick collar pop with a verbal correction got the situation under control quickly. To me there is nothing wrong with appropriately correcting your dog, especially in a situation that could compromise your safety or her safety on a walk, although I know people's opinions differ on this. 

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## Cathy's Gunner (Dec 4, 2008)

Jennifer1 said:


> I'm not sure where in MI you are but here is a trainer in Lansing {QUOTE}
> Angie Falcsik
> 
> We are south of Detroit so Lansing is a bit of a hike. I've had an offer from a member here to look at Honey and also a lot of interesting advise. I'll take all of this great information and channel it over the weekend.
> ...


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## Cathy's Gunner (Dec 4, 2008)

*Update:*

Just wanted to let you all know that I have been trying several of the suggestion that I received yesterday. Pete (FeatherRiverSam) sent me a link for a trainer Michael Ellis, (very good), I received several PM's, and lots of good advise in my thread. I ordered the book Control Unleashed too.

Honey did well both yesterday and today on our walks. I know everything won't happen over night but I was happy to see a change in her when I tried some of the methods. My left arm/hand held on to both leashes (still walking together till I have more time). My right hand was like a Peds candy dispenser, popping out little peanut butter treats to get her attention. I was so happy that through out our walk I had four eyes looking at me for directon. Brian's suggestion for soft mouth worked well as I tried it several times yesterday and again today. She sometimes gets over excited and forgets but then I pull it back from her and she remembers to do it correctly. Barb (Hotel4dogs) mentioned to me that the smaller prongs worked better than the larger ones. I had been using the larger ones on Honey and had used the smaller ones on Gunner. I put his old collar on and adjusted it to her size. I never needed to correct her as she slowed down as the collar got tight. Gunner uses an easy walk harness now without pulling.

All in all a much better couple days. I know that once I have the time to spend separately with each of them I will get improvement much quicker.


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## Neeko13 (Jul 10, 2010)

Cathy, I don't have any answers, just hoping someone gives you the help you need..she sure is sweet..good luck...


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Glad you seem to be seeing some progress. I think you are right that you will see a big difference when you get a chance to work with them separately


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Great to hear things are going better and you're making progress.


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

That sounds great Cathy, I'm so glad to hear that things are beginning to move in the right direction. It feels so good to see our dogs learn new things, to understand why and all with a happy tail.

Pete & Woody


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