# choline supplementation and/or cholodin



## hotel4dogs

I know I've seen cholodin mentioned in some previous threads.
Anyone with experience with choline and/or cholodin? 
I'm thinking about starting Toby on some choline, since I think most of his back end problem is neurological. He's having a really hard time, and I'm sort of grasping at anything right now.
I hesitate to use the cholodin, since the main ingredient is lactose, and I know he has a lactose allergy. Another ingredient is lecithin, and I read a couple of (older) studies that say lecithin isn't good for dogs; can cause anemia.
Thanks!


----------



## Starfire5

Well, I recently gave it to my 2 oldest goldens - 15 and almost 12. I gave it to them for their dementia issues. It did nothing for Reilly. Snuggles seems a little bit improved. So I switched Reilly to Sam-e and he is now sleeping through the night without panting and pacing around the house. Whew! The Sam-e is also supposed to help with joint issues.


----------



## GoldenCamper

I have tried this recently with Tucker for about a week, only giving 1 tab a day because I like to start out slow with new things. Can't say I have seen a difference yet.



hotel4dogs said:


> He's having a really hard time, and I'm sort of grasping at anything right now.


I was in the same place as you know and tried acupuncture for Tucker. It worked! Coppersmom was in the same place and I told her about it. It worked for Copper who also had laser treatments. Both of us had tried many supplements, then NSAID's and wound up with blood in our dogs stools, out of options. Others here have tried it with success. I suggest you give it a try with Toby. I wish I had tried it first.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Thanks. Toby has so many *issues* I hate to give him anything new, too.
My vet is a big fan of accupuncture. For a while the chiro was helping, now it doesn't seem to any more.


----------



## Finn's Fan

Barb, I gave my old angel Cholodin for dementia issues, and it "cured" the panting, pacing, carpet digging, etc. As you know, he had degenerative myelopathy, so neuro issues in spades. Even though there's no cure for DM, the neurologist had me giving him Vitamin E as part of the treatment. I think the maximum you're supposed to give without potential for damage is 400 IU. Choline, of course, will help the firing of Toby's synapses, so if you can find straight choline somewhere, that might be worth a try. Poor old guy.....hope you find something that helps him.


----------



## hotel4dogs

I can find pure choline, also can find choline mixed with inositol.
Not really sure where to head, though...
There's another product called Lipo-Form, made for dogs, that seems to have less of the lactose/lecithin stuff. 
He doesn't seem to have any dementia, but I was thinking it might help with the nerve communication.


----------



## Dallas Gold

Barb:

http://www.entirelypets.com/chca5tach.html

This is what we ordered for Barkley's cognitive functioning. If you read the active ingredients you can see what is in it. The bottle I have does list lecithin in it. I didn't know about it being dangerous for dogs but I do know that when we started Barkley's chemotherapy this was one of the supplements the vet told us to stop. 

He was on it for years and I really don't know if it helped his orthopedic issues or not because we were doing holistic acupuncture and chiropractic treatments on him (ditto what Teresa and Steve are saying about acupuncture). When we took him off of it I noticed he had some cognitive issues (like forgetting how to use his dog door at times) but I really didn't know what to attribute that to given he was receiving doses of a toxic drug every 3 weeks. 

We started giving it to Toby (no side effects) when we stopped Barkley because one of the holistic vets in Dallas mentioned on TV that all dogs over 5 should be on it for cognitive function. 

NOTE: there is one thing on the label of my bottle that is not listed on the link above and it is important:

*Infrequently, animals on choline loading regimen will show signs of increased neurological activity such as hyperactivity, social agitation, muscular twitching, etc. If these responses are noticed, cessation of tablet administrtion will quickly result in disappeaance of these irregularities. After a period of three or four days the animal may resume the same dosage, usually with no adverse reaction.* 

I find the last sentence particularly interesting...I would NEVER resume the supplement if my dog showed those signs. Hmmm.


----------



## GoldenCamper

hotel4dogs said:


> My vet is a big fan of accupuncture. For a while the chiro was helping, now it doesn't seem to any more.


If the chiro no longer helps, try acupuncture. It is a completely different beast.



hotel4dogs said:


> He doesn't seem to have any dementia, but I was thinking it might help with the nerve communication.


Acupuncture helps with nerve communication! The points and channels coincide with nerve pathways, and stimulating acupuncture points changes nerve signaling throughout the body. I believe it will help Toby. Here is a interesting link to read about acupuncture and neurologic recovery.

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.c...cine/acupuncture-for-neurologic-recovery.aspx


----------



## hotel4dogs

Sigh, I wish there were one great authority I could consult about these supplements etc. and just get an answer.
Here's what I've found in some scholarly writings, with references:

"...studies with dogs suggest a low tolerance for choline chloride and lecithin in that species. Adverse effects have been reported for levels of choline chloride equivalent to 3 times the apparent choline requirement.

the fact that choline chloride appears to present some hazard to chickens and dogs when included in the diet at relatively low levels indicates a need for additional research on choline for these and other species

Vitamin Tolerance of Animals, Board on Agriculture

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=949&page=83 ...."

That article, and others, cite that choline chloride even in modest amounts can cause reduced red cell production, to the point of anemia, in dogs. Apparently that's found only with that particular form of choline (chloride).

But the accupuncture, now that I'm going to pursue for sure.


----------



## Dallas Gold

Barb, thanks for researching and posting this. Cholene is now off of Toby's supplementation list. I did what so many people do, just assume these "holistic" vets know what they are talking about when they recommend this or that, and I didn't go and do more research on the supplement. Shame on me! The science is not always behind what they promote.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Ann, don't be hasty....while I would certainly avoid the choline chloride (which unfortunately appears to be found in the canine versions????), the others *might* be perfectly safe. 
I did see that my Toby's prescription food is supplemented with Choline, (probably choline chloride!!) so maybe there's no real need to give him any, anyway.


----------



## coppers-mom

Copper's visit to the ortho vet a month or so ago revealed a neurological issue with his back legs as well as all the arthritis. I declined an MRI due to cost and the fact that he is not a candidate for surgery if a spinal mass was found so the cause is unknown. I did have x-rays done and they did not reveal a mass - jsut arthritis in his shoulder ligaments as well as the other joints.

So.... we went to the holistic vet. Copper feels much better after his acupuncture and laser treatments. As soon as I lifted him out of the SUV last time he headed for the paddock and creek. He has not been able to leave the yard since last fall. I don't know why it works, but it does. Try it. All you have to lose is some money and I know you'll spend it on Toby anyway.


----------



## 2golddogs

When our dog Sundance was 11 we noticed on walks and on stairs he would often stumble when his back legs gave out. The vet diagnosed him with both neuropathy and osteoarthritis. We started giving him cholodin for the neuropathy and dasuquin for the osteoarthritis. Within about a month we noticed a marked improvement and from that day until we lost him at almost 14 he enjoyed his 2 mile walk everyday and never seemed to be in any pain. I don't know if the cholodin made a difference or whether it was due to the dasuquin. We were very fortunate that we saw no side effects of the cholodin. If we are faced with this situation in the future I would definitely try acupuncture. From the experience I've read of others it is definitely worth it.


----------



## Dallas Gold

hotel4dogs said:


> Ann, don't be hasty....while I would certainly avoid the choline chloride (which unfortunately appears to be found in the canine versions????), the others *might* be perfectly safe.
> I did see that my Toby's prescription food is supplemented with Choline, (probably choline chloride!!) so maybe there's no real need to give him any, anyway.


Well, now that I looked at the food label, Toby's has Choline already--so I am getting rid of the extra stuff...too much of a possibly not so good thing...


----------



## hotel4dogs

2golddogs, do you happen to recall what choline you gave Sundance?
Thanks!


----------



## 2golddogs

Sundance was given 2 tablets of Cholodin daily. I believe the ingredients include about 40 mg of choline chloride and 40 mg inositol. I took him in for 6 month check-ups once he reached his senior years and blood panels were always good.


----------



## hotel4dogs

thanks!! 
I'm waiting to hear back from my vet about who he refers to for accupuncture. He says he has "no problem" with me trying the cholodin, but doesn't think it would help in Toby's case.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Got another email from my vet. He says that he thinks it would be okay for me to try choline supplementation, but stay away from the cholodin because the first ingredient in it is lactose, and it contains lecithin. 
After we had the major issue with the duralactin, he doesn't think giving Toby anything with lactose would be a good idea.
Back to the drawing board.
Meanwhile, he did recommend 2 acupuncturists. Now to decide between them.


----------



## coppers-mom

I hope acupuncture helps Toby as much as it has helped Copper. I must admit though, I don't know which has helped more - acupuncture or laser light therapy. He moves soooooooo much better and is obviously more comfortable always. That is of course our goal for our old boys.

If you can get an acupuncture appointment soon I'd recommend you wait on the choline. the ortho vet recommended Copper start prednisone and after the acupuncture/laser treatment he is doing so well he doesn't need it. :crossfing


----------



## GoldenCamper

hotel4dogs said:


> After we had the major issue with the duralactin, he doesn't think giving Toby anything with lactose would be a good idea.
> Back to the drawing board.
> Meanwhile, he did recommend 2 acupuncturists. Now to decide between them.


I must have missed the major issue with the Duralactin and Toby. You were having great luck with it 4 months ago?

I assume both the acupuncture vets are IVAS certified? I consider that very important, anyone can buy the needles.


----------



## GoldenCamper

coppers-mom said:


> the ortho vet recommended Copper start prednisone and after the acupuncture/laser treatment he is doing so well he doesn't need it. :crossfing


 <had to lengthen to 10 characters


----------



## hotel4dogs

Oh, it did WONDERS for him! He felt great.
But he also apparently developed a major allergy to it. His chiro had commented that allergies to it are pretty common, and that's why he hesitates to recommend it. 
His ears were the worst I've ever seen them; normally they're not bad. Remember, Toby can't use otomax or any thing that resembles it, it makes him go deaf. We are still working on the ear infections, a couple months later.
Worse, it appears to be what caused his mange to flare. So he's on the ivermectin, and that's what ruins his quality of life more than anything else.
So I'm very, very leary of giving Toby anything.
I did look at the qualifications of both vets, I like this one a little better and I have a call in to her office:

http://avah.org/medical-team/cheryl-adams/

I'm waiting for them to call me back. It looks from her bio. like she does a lot of pretty interesting stuff!








GoldenCamper said:


> I must have missed the major issue with the Duralactin and Toby. You were having great luck with it 4 months ago?
> 
> I assume both the acupuncture vets are IVAS certified? I consider that very important, anyone can buy the needles.


----------



## Dallas Gold

The link to the acupuncture vet was great! I like her! When you do these sessions there is a lot of time to talk to the vet while the needles and machines do their thing--and she would be so interesting to talk to on her previous work with stem cell therapy and her participation in the liver study. Wow! If you go please get the scoop and post here! 

As Copper's Mom mentions, I'd hold off on the choline until you do the acupuncture for a while--that way you can see if it helps Toby. BTW, Barkley did have some reactions to a few of the herbs his holistic vet prescribed--fyi to keep in the back of your mind. 

Like Steve said, anyone can buy the needles, but the one you chose has the right credentials. Penny & Maggie's mom attended a client seminar put on by Barkley's conventional acupuncture vet where she mentioned that they've actually found in a study or two that just placing the needles randomly can sometimes stimulate the nerves and benefit the dog, though there are no guarantees!

I hope you will be pleasantly surprised and see Toby's mange improve with acupuncture. Acupuncture helps so many things.


----------



## Duke's Mommy

About 4 weeks ago I started Duke on Cholodin for dementia issues. After a couple of days thought I saw an improvement, at the week mark he becames extremely hyper at night. He'd go up and down the steps at least 7 times, in and out of all the bedrooms, digging on the carpet and panting. I thought he was going to have a heart attack. I stopped the supplements immediately. 

He sleeps most of the day, but then gets very restless at 3:00am. Has to do the panting and pacing thing for about 25 minutes before he'll go outside. Then I help him up to our bed and he'll go back to sleep, usually. Last night he was up from 1:30-3:00....I'm very tired today. I think I will research the SAM E, maybe I'll have better luck with that. :crossfing


----------



## Dallas Gold

Duke's Mommy said:


> About 4 weeks ago I started Duke on Cholodin for dementia issues. After a couple of days thought I saw an improvement, at the week mark he becames extremely hyper at night. He'd go up and down the steps at least 7 times, in and out of all the bedrooms, digging on the carpet and panting. I thought he was going to have a heart attack. I stopped the supplements immediately.
> 
> He sleeps most of the day, but then gets very restless at 3:00am. Has to do the panting and pacing thing for about 25 minutes before he'll go outside. Then I help him up to our bed and he'll go back to sleep, usually. Last night he was up from 1:30-3:00....I'm very tired today. I think I will research the SAM E, maybe I'll have better luck with that. :crossfing


Have you spoken to your vet about a prescription medication called Anipryl for canine dementia? It doesn't always work but it might be worth a try to see. There's also a special diet the vet can prescribe but I've heard mixed results on it as well. I think it's by Hills.


----------



## BayBeams

hotel4dogs said:


> I did look at the qualifications of both vets, I like this one a little better and I have a call in to her office:
> 
> http://avah.org/medical-team/cheryl-adams/
> 
> I'm waiting for them to call me back. It looks from her bio. like she does a lot of pretty interesting stuff!


Just curious as to whether you tried the acupuncture with your dog. I have a session of acupuncture planned for my dog with back problems.

I am interested in your experience with it and any outcomes....


----------



## hotel4dogs

Our appointment is scheduled for Tuesday morning. Prior to it, the accupuncture vet wanted my dog's records, including labs and xrays, faxed over from my regular vet. Also wanted me to write up and fax over a brief medical history, his meds, his symptoms, etc. for her to review before we come and go over with me when we get there.
I'll post after the appt. Tuesday and let everyone know how it goes. When is your appointment?




BayBeams said:


> Just curious as to whether you tried the acupuncture with your dog. I have a session of acupuncture planned for my dog with back problems.
> 
> I am interested in your experience with it and any outcomes....


----------



## hotel4dogs

Thank you for your post. Most dog foods in the US now have choline added to them. The question is whether or not we need to give them more than what is in the food.




tiana1988 said:


> To keep the dog healthy, it is much more to play with him, let him happy, to reason with him, let him politely, so as to cute. To prepare some delicious dogs, good performance when incentives, such dogs can be very strong support, but also allow them to become very smart dog to work for good food!
> 
> You can feed the dog something contains Choline Chloride . It is benefit for dog's growing!​


----------

