# Tito's Training Journal, Week 3



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Tito, Tito...please let your Mom know that you are never NAUGHTY, just learning the ropes! I hope your Mom gave you a good relaxing bath and lots of treats after your hard day of retrieving and learning things....but I'm with you about relaxing swims though! 

H4D--thanks for the update!


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sounds like a great time, I really like Dan, from the sounds of it, he knows his stuff. I really like what he is doing with Tito. Keep the journal entries coming!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Thank-you so much for the weekly training journal. Please keep them coming. Sounds like Tito is a fast learner. Can't wait to see the hunt test entry.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Love the update, sounds like it was a fun day.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

What a good boy! He'll just keep getting better!


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Really enjoying the Tito updates! Sounds like your trainer is great and Tito is learning a lot! GOOD BOY!! GOOD MOM!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

You going to take a video one day? *hint* *hint*


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

yes, seriously a small, inexpensive video camera is next on my wish list. As soon as I buy one, I do plan to video ALL the lessons (don't worry, I won't post all the videos, LOL) so I can review them and learn at home.



GoldenSail said:


> You going to take a video one day? *hint* *hint*


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Barb you are SO fortunate you found Dan. I know you were agonizing that no one was near by, then you find him and it is a reasonable distance AND good. 

I am not sure if "I" should call Sue or I should have Art. He is the trainer on this dog. However she does look to me.... sigh. 

Ann


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

Interesting stuff!

It just goes to show that hunt training, just like any other training, has to be approached methodically to get consistent results; I know there's a training day here in South Florida, but someone who attends told me they let the dogs off lead and my concern was that if your dog wasn't reliable, it didn't make much sense--they would be rewarded for being "naughty" and if they weren't on lead, you couldn't correct (either on land or on water).

I think a lot of people can also learn more about the e-collar. You think that once you turn it on, it will be uncomfortable for the dog, but that for different dogs, they have different comfort levels and that they are an excellent tool in the hands of an experienced trainer. 

Keep up the good work Tito!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I can't see letting novice dogs off leash in any field OR obedience training, but especially in field. The reward of getting to do the retrieve is just too great, and if they are allowed to reward themselves for incorrect behavior, I would think it would be very hard to fix it later.




rappwizard said:


> Interesting stuff!
> 
> It just goes to show that hunt training, just like any other training, has to be approached methodically to get consistent results; I know there's a training day here in South Florida, but someone who attends told me they let the dogs off lead and my concern was that if your dog wasn't reliable, it didn't make much sense--they would be rewarded for being "naughty" and if they weren't on lead, you couldn't correct (either on land or on water).
> 
> ...


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I can't see letting novice dogs off leash in any field OR obedience training, but especially in field. The reward of getting to do the retrieve is just too great, and if they are allowed to reward themselves for incorrect behavior, I would think it would be very hard to fix it later.


When we did the doubles in the seminar with Quinn. She tried to do the green dog thing of pick up #2 mark then go directly to #1. Art was on her like white on rice. As she prepared to cross in front of him, he called her sharply, she thought about continuing and she did come to him with her bumper. He took it, set her up, made her stay and then released her. 

We do a lot of bumper picking up if she breaks. She is pretty good there for a young girl. 

Quinn's theme song "You Can't Always Get What You Want"

Ann


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I can't see letting novice dogs off leash in any field OR obedience training, but especially in field. The reward of getting to do the retrieve is just too great, and if they are allowed to reward themselves for incorrect behavior, I would think it would be very hard to fix it later.


Actually, we do this all this time for the training events our retriever club puts on. There's never been a big issue--if they are not trained older dogs they are puppies that are more than eager to come back. Some people do and can put a long lead on to reel them in if necessary.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

If the dog doesn't pick up the bird fast enough to suit you, what do you do?
If the dog doesn't come back fast enough to suit you, what do you do? You want 100% speed on the way back in, just like on the way out.
If the dog starts to mouth the bird too much on the way back in, what do you do?
Just a few examples. 
My trainer says if you have low goals and a so-so dog, let them do whatever they want to, most dogs can slog thru a JH anyway. But otherwise don't let them get away with anything even partially wrong, from the get-go, and you'll end up with a better finished product.
He also says that goldens are so smart that they learn they can get away with less than perfect behavior really fast.
Now I've never trained any dog in any hunt/field at all before, but it made sense to me!




GoldenSail said:


> Actually, we do this all this time for the training events our retriever club puts on. There's never been a big issue--if they are not trained older dogs they are puppies that are more than eager to come back. Some people do and can put a long lead on to reel them in if necessary.


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> If the dog doesn't pick up the bird fast enough to suit you, what do you do?
> If the dog doesn't come back fast enough to suit you, what do you do? You want 100% speed on the way back in, just like on the way out.
> If the dog starts to mouth the bird too much on the way back in, what do you do?
> Just a few examples.
> ...


I love reading about Tito's field adventures! It sounds like he is doing GREAT, and if he's too smelly for you, you can send him to me! 

This makes sense to me, too. I'm in a spot with the horse I ride right now where she knows she can get away with a lot of undesirable behavior with me on her back, but she doesn't even put a foot wrong when my trainer gets on. Of course, same would apply with dogs (and probably kids, too!)... if you let them get away with taking the easy route or being naughty they always will, especially when they are doing fun and rewarding activities.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

MillysMom said:


> This makes sense to me, too. I'm in a spot with the horse I ride right now where she knows she can get away with a lot of undesirable behavior with me on her back, but she doesn't even put a foot wrong when my trainer gets on. Of course, same would apply with dogs (and probably kids, too!)... if you let them get away with taking the easy route or being naughty they always will, especially when they are doing fun and rewarding activities.


People go to trainers for help, advice etc. Based on Milly's Moms comment I wanted to add what my horse trainer said about professionals. She said think about banking... The professional is deposits, the owner/riders are withdraws. The professional makes enough deposits to cover the necessary withdraws juniors and amateurs make. 

Same thing in field. Barb is learning how to do this but she is going to make mistakes, and Dan will help Tito do it right so he does not get too confused when Barb "makes withdraws". 

As for letting dogs retrieve off leash without means of correction? I think it could lead to bad behavior. You don't want to 'reward' the dog when it makes a mistake. HOWEVER that being said there are a LOT of dogs out there getting titles in JH and passes in SH before they are a year old. So somehow they are getting the job done. 

That being said... My horse wants SOMEONE to make some deposits.. he is getting sick and tired of being overdrawn. :doh:

Ann


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I can see needing to have something to have control with if the dog hasn't been through CC or FF. That's why those things are usually done so early in a dog's training, so the handler has a way to control the dog. If something is in use long-term, how do you increase distance? Are there 400 ft. lines people are using?


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> If the dog doesn't pick up the bird fast enough to suit you, what do you do?
> If the dog doesn't come back fast enough to suit you, what do you do? You want 100% speed on the way back in, just like on the way out.
> If the dog starts to mouth the bird too much on the way back in, what do you do?
> Just a few examples.
> ...


Why would you correct a dog that is just learning? Like I said, these are either young puppies (just learning--will get formalized) or the older trained adults.

I only mentioned it because I honestly have not seen it to be a problem that these dogs have been run off leash to go retrieve birds. A few people have used long lines. In the case of puppies (less than 12 months) I would not worry so much about bobbles such as the dog coming back slowly or carrying the bird incorrectly.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm at the very beginning of field training, both me and my 16 month old dog. I have never had a dog before, so it is all new to me. When we train (just the two of us) she is connected to a 100 foot drag line. Since their is no hope of me throwing a bumper beyond that it works. She would love to run big circles with her prize but one quick correction with the drag line and she remembers what we are doing. I usually don't have to correct more than once in a training session and no longer at every session. I have yet to FF or CC.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The long line isn't really a "correction", it's an "explanation" to the dog of whether or not they're doing what you want them to do. You really can't get much of a "correction" in on a dog that's 70 feet away from you by tugging on the line, so correction might not be the right word. What you really do is give him feedback that he's not doing what you want him to do. 
If a dog is allowed to meander back to you with the bird, he will quickly learn that that's an acceptable return speed. Then all of a sudden, at some random point in his training that you determine, it's NOT acceptable, and you have to try to convince him that what he learned was okay, isn't. Wouldn't it be easier (and more fair) to just show him from the beginning what you expect?
When they are between 6 and 12 months old, they are no longer babies. They are teenagers; the exact age when you really don't want them to get away with anything!
As I said, I have no previous experience with this at all. Just relating what my trainer is telling me, and since I've seen it over and over in obedience (including with some things I've let Tito get away with), I think he's right. Would have been easier to just do it right from the beginning.





GoldenSail said:


> Why would you correct a dog that is just learning? Like I said, these are either young puppies (just learning--will get formalized) or the older trained adults.
> 
> I only mentioned it because I honestly have not seen it to be a problem that these dogs have been run off leash to go retrieve birds. A few people have used long lines. In the case of puppies (less than 12 months) I would not worry so much about bobbles such as the dog coming back slowly or carrying the bird incorrectly.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

My trainer says the line is done only prior to CC and FF. He commented this past week, won't it be nice to get the CC done so that he doesn't have to drag that line around everywhere???? Remember, we're just starting, this was lesson #3. 



Loisiana said:


> I can see needing to have something to have control with if the dog hasn't been through CC or FF. That's why those things are usually done so early in a dog's training, so the handler has a way to control the dog. If something is in use long-term, how do you increase distance? Are there 400 ft. lines people are using?


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> The long line isn't really a "correction", it's an "explanation" to the dog of whether or not they're doing what you want them to do. You really can't get much of a "correction" in on a dog that's 70 feet away from you by tugging on the line, so correction might not be the right word. What you really do is give him feedback that he's not doing what you want him to do.
> If a dog is allowed to meander back to you with the bird, he will quickly learn that that's an acceptable return speed. Then all of a sudden, at some random point in his training that you determine, it's NOT acceptable, and you have to try to convince him that what he learned was okay, isn't. Wouldn't it be easier (and more fair) to just show him from the beginning what you expect?
> When they are between 6 and 12 months old, they are no longer babies. They are teenagers; the exact age when you really don't want them to get away with anything!
> As I said, I have no previous experience with this at all. Just relating what my trainer is telling me, and since I've seen it over and over in obedience (including with some things I've let Tito get away with), I think he's right. Would have been easier to just do it right from the beginning.


True. I actually was going to originally say less than 6 months but decided to up it  

I don't have any experience either, but I would think if you have a dog consistently coming back to you at a good speed even if it is not CC or FF you are probably not hurting any by letting it retrieve off-lead. And like I said, at the events I went to most people let their dogs run off-lead and I did not see dogs having issues coming back. I guess it depends on the dog you have, as all things do


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## Kelbys'Dad (Jan 19, 2009)

Sounds like Tito did a lot of hard work to earn that *good stink*....... and you go and wash it off. :--sitnky:

Keep up the good work Tito. You're doin' good!:wavey:


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Explanation I love that. It does seem like I'm just making it clear to her what I want.


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