# Over-Arousal Biting in Puppies: Support Group



## Anele

There are a few of us (just a few!) out there who are suffering from over-arousal biting with our pups. (Mine is also having puppy tantrums.) *This is not typical puppy nipping*, but rather harder biting that seems to happen at certain times, especially outdoors, on walks, etc.

I thought we could gather resources here, document what is going on with our pups, and cheer each other as we find solutions for this _*very*_ _*frustrating issue*_. Hopefully we will graduate from the puppy board with this as a phase from the past. 

Cute pictures, funny stories, "tails [sic] of triumph" very welcome.

***IF at any point you feel this has crossed the line into aggression, please seek professional help from a behaviorist.***​ 
I found this article and it is really good-- it gives very specific ideas for what to do: How To Survive Your Dog's Arousal Biting

What I'm doing right now:
(1) Documenting EVERYTHING. When my dog wakes, his mood, what he's doing, etc. 
(2) Going to order the following books: one about nose work (will tire my dog out without arousing him too much), Control Unleashed: the Puppy Program, and Agility Right from the Start
(3) Going to get a very good tug toy (scented), but will use it with a gate dividing us when we play; we will work on tug safely this way
(4) Video this behavior
(5) Using prevention as much as possible (keeping him highly monitored outside, using a tether as needed outside, minimizing length of walks, playing with an easy escape route planned)
(6) Work extensively on handling and transports (there are ideas for this in Agility Right from the Start)

In my case, my dog was not from a singleton litter, was taken from the breeder at 9 weeks, plays well with other dogs (is sort of middle of the road), and takes treats nicely/has a soft mouth most of the time. He also has good impulse control in certain situations. HOWEVER, I am realizing that his impulse control is not generalized. In other words, if I stand in front of him with a treat/water/food/etc., all is fine, but if I am in other positions (sitting at his side, for example), he has to practice more. So, I will work on impulse control in all sorts of settings, including where/how I stand, sit, etc.

_A special thank you to a fantastic GRF trainer whom I had the pleasure to meet in person-- she has been a wonderful source of support and has given me most of the ideas I listed above.
_


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## Eclipse

Penny's a year and a half and I'm still dealing with this on walks. She's bitten my arm hard twice this week. It's the first time a dog has deliberately bitten me. I did have a professional trainer work with her this week and this morning she did a tiny protest growl when I asked for a down, but that was it. That's a huge improvement over how she was acting previously on walks.

My basic formula is play fetch in the backyard -> short walk -> play fetch in the backyard -> let her rest for a couple hours and repeat

We do other things on the walk to practice being calm too.


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## lloyddobler

Anele and I have been sharing our stories and I'm so happy that we can now share with others. I'm still struggling to figure out what will work to rid my pup of this behavior. I've tried just about everything and the biting while on leash continues to happen daily. I've reached out to a trainer who specializes in bite inhibition and impulse control, but haven't heard back from her yet. I hope to get some private training with her soon so I know what I need to do differently. I know this is not an issue of him having too much energy as I exercise him 2 1/2 - 3 hours per day and he gets play with time with other dogs nearly every day. I sometimes wonder if I am over-exercising him for his age. 

I just bought the book Control Unleashed and also ordered  *CRATE GAMES & RUFF LOVE*from Susan Garrett and hope these will help give me some ideas on what else I can be doing to train him what I want from him and extinguish the unwanted behavior. 

I look forward to other responses to learn from you what has helped and what hasn't. I also know I'll be using this forum for support as there are days I end up in tears due to frustration!


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## Eclipse

I really enjoyed having private lessons and I hope you get as much out of them as I have. I found them to be much more helpful than group lessons.


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## Tayla's Mom

I'm not on here much any more but if it would be helpful there are a lot of my posts from around middle of 2012 for about a year on terrible Tayla. It's all under Tayla's Mom. She was the worst. Walks for me were embarrassing and painful. I can't say how many times she would just go off on me and I'd come home in tears and bleeding. It happened for a long time, almost until she was one and then it was like a light switch went off. To this day if something sets her off on a walk, and I don't know what it is, but I really think it's just brattish behavior, she will jump up and start biting. I have long since learned to control this with a very firm sit and a treat. We sit for a few seconds, she gets a treat and we calmly walk on. It happens a few times a year. She is probably the smartest dog I've ever owned and my biggest challenge. I don't think I liked her much as a puppy, but she is the love of my life now. She is 3.5 years old, does lots of obedience rally stuff, although we don't compete, she has grown to be exceptionally obedient. Good luck everyone. It's such a difficult issue and few understand. We actually lost golden friends who thought we were just bad owners who had no control over regular puppy behavior. It's not normal, but it's not the end of the world either. It does get better. If anyone has any questions you can always find me on FB. Good luck to you all.


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## Rkaymay

Zelda was an over-excited biter. Walks used to be horrid for me - I can't count the number of times we got twenty feet from the apartment and I said "nope, not again", picked her up, carried her home, and crated her immediately because she was biting so bad. My favorite sweats have 10+ holes in them from one walk.  We did a lot of impulse work, including putting her in a sit/stay or down/stay, then backing up 5 feet, circling her, jumping like a crazy person, etc. The crate was my best friend. LUCKILY we have moved past biting me, now when overstimulated she grabs the leash and tugs it - not ideal, but better than biting me. Even my mom, who's raised many puppies over the years, said Zelda was not like any other puppy. She was demon-dog for sure.

It does get better. I've found that Z is best behaved with a very moderate amount of exercise (20-30 min/day, anymore and she can't settle down), something good to chew on, and a calm demeanor on my part. If I'm excited, she starts to get overstimulated very quickly. She's much easier to redirect now ("playtime's over" is a command used frequently), and while she can still be very mouthy, she rarely bites hard. She often pretends like she's going to bite my hand just for fun, but if she actually gets it in her mouth, she doesn't know what to do (she's a weird dog).


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## Chritty

On Control Unleashed, I've had some issues with it as I've read it. 

1. It's a massive self promotion book. She seems much more interested in explaining how great she is for coming up with this course. 

2. The spirituality content. Suggesting that even if your dog no longer has it's tail or ears that you should still pretend to massage those areas because your dog can somehow still feel it?! Please....


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## SwimDog

I needed this support group with one of my very first dogs. He could go an entire 90 minute training class while jumping up, biting at my arms, the leash, etc. It was so embarrassing and frustrating. I have no idea why I kept going to class since I left every week crying! We finally got some different help, and with a break, we saw the behavior measurable decrease until it was almost gone. At 14 he will - occasionally- grab the leash in frustration - and while I don't want him sad and it still causes irritated feelings from me - I'm always happy that he's feeling that well and still around. Most of the dogs we were training with when he was young and horrible have been gone for many, many years even though at least half of those people are still involved in dog sports. In your moments of frustration - do remember there will be a day where you will give almost anything to even see this horrible-ness again! 
A few things that helped us:
- Taking a break from class 
- When we returned instead of putting him in that environment, we just hung out and did our own thing on the edge 
- Work on easy skills he could handle.
- Give him appropriate ways to express his frustration and/or diffuse him - so playing with a toy and/or searching for treats scattered in the grass. 
- It sounds stupid, but clicking when he let go of the leash/me, even if it was to grab it again. Click. then drop a handful of food on the floor. Theoretically it should have made him grab and bite more and more, but the food helped create a calmer response and the biting became less emotional. And there were more pauses - he got a lot of rewards for all the in-between behaviors. 
Obviously this isn't a plan that will work for any or all dogs, but it made a huge difference for us. 



Chritty said:


> On Control Unleashed, I've had some issues with it as I've read it.
> 
> 1. It's a massive self promotion book. She seems much more interested in explaining how great she is for coming up with this course.
> 
> 2. The spirituality content. Suggesting that even if your dog no longer has it's tail or ears that you should still pretend to massage those areas because your dog can somehow still feel it?! Please....


I interpreted the stories as 'writing isn't her strength' and she was trying to use examples of her own dogs/student dogs to give other teams hope about possibilities - and that it's not just a program that worked for her one dog (unlike many other dog books/trainers/programs). I can definitely see your perspective - and now will be thinking about that every time I read it again! On my most recent re-read last month, I was really struck by how much time has passed since it was published in 2007 - things that are commonplace now were quite unusual at that time - and it wasn't so long ago!

The massage stuff is taken from the t-touch program which is just weird - the first ttouch videos (vhs's - that long ago!) had many, many odd and weird things going on. I have very negative associations with it! Riding crops to get pet dogs to do things, weird superstitious things like you mentioned - odd, odd stuff. Some people are incredibly passionate about it.


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## Loukia

Tayla's Mom said:


> ...but I really think it's just brattish behavior, she will jump up and start biting. I have long since learned to control this with a very firm sit and a treat. We sit for a few seconds, she gets a treat and we calmly walk on. It happens a few times a year. She is probably the smartest dog I've ever owned and my biggest challenge. I don't think I liked her much as a puppy, but she is the love of my life now. She is 3.5 years old...


Anele, thank you for starting this thread and Tayla's Mom, thank you for your response! 

Anele and I have had several conversations about this. My Comet, as well as he's doing, is still mouthy. I understand that Goldens tend to be mouthy dogs even up to age 2, but even my trainer and my friends who have had Goldens are amazed at just how mouthy he was and is. 

He is 10 months as of yesterday and he's much much better than he was (I'll admit, and feel guilty as I type it, that around the 6 month mark, I started thinking I had made a HUGE mistake getting him). And he's come such a long way. But we still have days where he's mouthy and it drives me crazy and I have to give him a break in his crate to give me a break. 

Comet's mouthiness shows up either when he's gotten too excited (like playing outside with a ball or when my kids are running and he wants to chase/bite them for fun... but too hard) or when he's being demanding. For example, if he wants his food or he wants attention and he isn't getting it, suddenly he'll walk over and bite my son or bite the door frame to get my attention. He almost acts like a defiant child where negative attention is better than none in the moment. Again, things are way better than they were but Comet is definitely still a work in progress.

I've been working with a new trainer for the past 6 weeks or so and I've seen a HUGE improvement. While Comet's mouthiness hasn't really changed in the past 6 months, in working with this new trainer, his obedience has dramatically improved. He even passed the CGC test, which I had basically written off as impossible for a dog as mouthy as Comet. What I've discovered is that because he has become so much better with his obedience (now that I'm working with someone who is analyzing my every move), I can snap him out of his biting pretty quickly. I have to put him in a down/stay or sit/stay, but he's listening most of the time. It's not a solution to the mouthy behavior per say, but it certainly helps manage it. We do have those random moments when I'll give him a down command and he'll bite the air, bark and then throw himself into a down in protest... but he still goes into the down. And on rare occasion I'll give him a sit or down command and he'll just keep jumping at the leash and I have to give him a "eh eh" and a leach correction to snap him out of it. But those moments are getting fewer and farther between. 

Comet's new trainer has told me that Comet is very high drive and also very smart. Maybe we could make ourselves feel better by saying the mouthy/biting dogs are the really smart ones (LOL... though I'm sure the service dog trainers might have something to say about that)! 

Comet's new trainer has been helping me identifying the best ways to train Comet, versus assuming there is a "right" way to train all dogs or a cookie cutter approach. As soon as I started private lessons with him and he could assess and make adjustments as we worked with Comet, Comet's obedience improved and so did my ability to properly train him. He trains dogs for competitive obedience and his very meticulous approach seems to really click with Comet. The place I was going to before was nice and good enough for a more complaint dog, but I wasn't seeing the results I would hope for and they were doing a lot of "you're doing a great job, just keep up the great work." The new trainer I'm working with is fine tuning every move I make and I've found that it really helps in Comet fully understand what I'm asking of him.

As Tayla's Mom mentions in her post, I do think that some of Comet's mouthiness is brattiness and a desire to get his way. I think the other portion is him being completely overly excited. Either way, I'm hoping it will one day go away, but sometimes I wonder if Comet is a little too smart for his own good... He almost acts like he thinks he knows better until he is in training mode. Once I get him in training mode he's all business and all attention on me... but it's not possible to keep a pet dog in training mode all of the time. I'm hoping as he mellows out with age that the mouthy stuff will mellow out as well.


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## lloyddobler

Venting post - This morning we went to play fetch in the park that's a block away from my apartment before going on our morning walk. He turned into an absolute horror at the park, jumping and biting me in the stomach. He's bites are very much better harder and harder and my mental state is wearing down. 

I am sure there are many thing I haven't done yet that I should be trying to address this issue. I have an email and phone call out to a trainer who specializes in these types of issues. However, she's on vacation until Wednesday and I hope and pray that she contacts me right away so we can begin working together on this. I am so desperate for help and can't do this alone any longer.

I love my dog to pieces. We share a lot of precious moments together when he is calm. But, this biting at me has to stop. He never does this to anyone else... just me. Seems very strange.


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## Anele

THANK YOU to all of you! Oh my goodness-- I feel better already!

I have just a few minutes before I leave, so I will be back-- but quickly--lloyddobler, no more dog parks! No more long walks! No more physical play UNLESS you can do it safely (inside with a gate to divide you OR outside where he is tethered). The common advice is more exercise, more playing with dogs, but this does not always work! Rkaymay says a moderate amount of exercise is better for her pup and it is true in our case. On the last walk, it was LONGER than normal, and the breakdown came toward the end.I really, really think it is time for a humane muzzle on walks because the longer this pattern goes on, the longer it becomes ingrained.

I think we need to focus on PREVENTION-- being proactive and not reactive. 

I think you will feel 1000% better when he wears a muzzle. It will take some time for him to like it, so in the meantime, short walks, bring the clip along (as suggested in the article) so you can tether him to something if he starts up, and increase mental exercise. AND NAPS! The crate, ex-pen, gates, and tethers will be your friends if he does this indoors as well but I don't think he does.


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## Rkaymay

I had a lot of success with a pinch collar. Zelda responds to it well, and I rarely used it for corrections; rather, when she lost control I just stepped on the leash so she couldn't jump. It was very helpful for us.


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## lloyddobler

Have any of you used a gentle leader head harness? If so, did that help you address this behavior?


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## Chritty

We have the front clip gentle leader. The nose harness has the potential to depress the airways. 

I wouldn't think it would help though


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## Loukia

Chritty said:


> We have the front clip gentle leader. The nose harness has the potential to depress the airways.
> 
> I wouldn't think it would help though


The first trainer I was working with had me using a nose gentle leader harness. My own personal experience was that, at first, I thought it was wonderful. In fact, I'm sure there are a good handful of posts I made in the beginning where I rave about it. Comet was GREAT on the gentle leader. 

Unfortunately, as time went on, I realized he was ONLY great when the gentle leader was on, and when it was off he was worse. My trainer at the time said I could ween him off of it slowly, but this didn't work unless I wanted him wearing it at all times (which wouldn't work for me). It was almost like the moment I would take it off, Comet was like "I'm FREEEEEE and I can't hear you!" He's to the point now where he behaves the same way on a walk as he used to with the gentle leader, but because he doesn't associate the training with wearing the gentle leader, it carries over to all other areas of his life. I found the Gentle Leader gave me a much faster result, but for me it was more of a management tool rather than a training tool.

And, I agree that it restricts breathing... I noticed, with a proper fit - fit by the trainer, pet store and me after watching the video, he still couldn't open his mouth wide enough to pant well on a long walk or a hot day. It was something I didn't notice at first because it was winter, but when the weather got warmer I got concerned.


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## Anele

Eclipse, 1.5 years?? I guess they don't just grow out of this. What did your trainer suggest that made a difference? I am so glad you are seeing an improvement!

lloyddobler, How is he indoors?

Tayla's Mom, that post made me smile! It is comforting to know that there is an end in sight. I wish I knew what it was setting them off on walks. I will have to read through your old posts!

Rkaymay, yes, the over-stimulation is definitely an issue. Very interesting about not over-doing the exercise. Did Zelda change once she moved in with the other dog, or was she older when it improved? RE: pinch collars-- my private trainer fit my previous dog (many years ago) with one, and it ended up giving him horrible sores in a short time. And NO change of his behavior! I just can't use one again! 

Chritty, I had NO idea that those were some of the concepts in CU! What???

SwimDog, those are all such wonderful ideas! And what a touching reminder, that someday we will miss even these crazy days. Is t-touch overall weird? I remember bringing my fox terrier (who ended up being great in general except on walks, but he didn't bite at me or the leash . . .just pulled like no one's business) to a trainer who taught me massage. She said he couldn't "connect" with his body. I gave up pretty fast and bought a Halti instead.

Loukia, if you feel guilty for typing that you were thinking you made a mistake with Comet at 6 months, then I need to go to Confession! I am so, so, so happy for the progress you have made, and just in awe of his new CGC title! If you think about it, you should be EXTRA amazed because you are seeing great progress when he is supposed to be in his hardest stage. I do think this results of a dog trying to get their way and communicate. (I just don't know what my dog is saying and/or sometimes what he wants isn't the best choice-- just like with a toddler!)The excellent trainer I worked with pointed out ways in which I WAS letting my dog get his way . . .so I have a lot of undoing. 


Update from us. A GOOD DAY! No problems. One day at a time-- we have days with no problems and then back to problems! He only mouthed me (no biting, very gentle) once in the am when he just got up and was excited. No other time with anyone. Per the advice of my fantastic trainer, I only did a short walk today. He got hyped up IMMEDIATELY outside, so that was no good-- but I could just tell by his ears, eyes, panting-- he did not act out. I spent a lot of the walk putting him into sit and down-- which he did. I also did a few "find it" games . . .better always to keep his nose on the ground than up to me jumping. So, since the walk was short, it was fine. 

The rest of the day was all management. I got a new, exciting tug toy, so we played tug a few times with the gate dividing us. He always had to sit, then at some point "give," then back to the game, then sometimes go to his mat to calm down. We have to work on "give" more-- he does give, but sometimes it takes a few seconds vs. immediately when it's a new toy. He had a horribly gross animal body part to chew on, so most of his day was spent doing that. Outside, I had him practice sitting while I picked up his poo (plastic bags are sooooo much fun for him) and that went perfectly. Making sure he takes treats VERY nicely each time. Practiced being calm on the mat in the kitchen. Practiced being calm in front of the window-- he likes to stare out of it-- but I treat him for NOT barking b/c I do not want him to start.

Funny story before I go to bed! Yesterday, he started barking out the window, which he does not often do. My husband figured out why-- we had put Kevin's beloved chair out for the garbage! (The chair was worn through!) It is a nylon outdoor kid's chair that Kevin is too big for but he likes to sit on it a lot, and sometimes chew it! I moved the chair from his sight, and no more barking. I think he needs a new chair, though I have to keep him from chewing it!


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## lloyddobler

Anele - So glad it was a good day! You are doing awesome!!! I'm going to take a chapter from your book (and your great advice) and really slow down. We just got back from a slow, relaxed walk around the block, probably about 1/3 of a mile in total. I brought string cheese and rewarded him OFTEN. I am trying to work on him having a default sit and rewarding him every time I catch him in the act! Usually getting out the leash and getting out the door is a situation that really excites him and starts him jumping. Tonight, I had him smell the leash and give him cheese, put the harness on, gave him cheese, walked towards door, sit = cheese, open door, sit = cheese, lock door, sit = cheese, walk to elevator, sit = cheese, get on elevator, sit = cheese... you get the picture. Then I rewarded him often for loose leash walking and also put him into a sit every 25 years or so with a reward. We made it the whole way without incident and even came across two small dogs off leash on the elevator ride back up. He always is able to hold it together in those situations, but then explodes at me after we get out of the situation... not this time.

What helped/inspired me are these posts and beginning reading Control Unleashed, The Puppy Program. It reminded me that I need to go back to the basics and ensure he has those down to a science and to make sure I don't over-do it with him. I realize that I was likely completely over-doing it which was causing him stress that I didn't recognize that was causing him to act out at me in frustration. When he first started acting this way, I assumed it was because he wasn't getting enough exercise. Once I revved up the exercise, it helped at first, but then has gradually gotten worse over the course of the last 1 - 2 months. Part of it is selfish on my end because I absolutely love playing fetch with him and walking him. However, we have to go back to the basics and re-train. He may just be the type of dog that I can't do all the things with that I want to. 

I have brought him to work with me since he was about 11 weeks old. I now wonder if I should or not. The alternative would be to leave him home all day by himself with me coming home to walk him at lunch. I don't trust him loose in the house, so he would be crated. I have an office and he spends the majority of the day napping, so I don't think it's overly stimulating to him. However, I wonder if him having a quieter place to be would be better for him? I'll discuss with my trainer when and if one ever responds to me!

Lloyd does have moments inside where he nips. It seems to come out of nowhere when it happens. It happens much less often and is easier to correct. He typically will listen to me when I say no if he begins nipping inside. If not, I leave the room for a couple of minutes. By the time I re-enter he typically has calmed down and doesn't re-start the behavior.

I asked earlier about the gentle lead collar because the trainer that lead our puppy kindergarten class recently suggested it to me. When I explained how he was acting out, she laughed and said it was normal puppy/teenager behavior. While I realize there are a lot of us dealing with this, I don't think this is normal.... Or at least I hope not! If it were, I don't think over 1/2 of this countries' households would have dogs.


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## Rkaymay

I found that it was a mixture of both - we moved in when Z was nearly 4 months old, but I saw a REAL improvement around 6 months. That's when her biting decreased, she became overstimulated less often, and she was able to settle in the house and nap - something she previously had trouble doing.

Z actually got overstimulated today. My roommate and I were practicing martial arts in the living room and she got very mouthy/bitey/jumpy, going for hands, not clothes, and then she got huge zoomies. Though adorable, it was a bit of a pain. She's come a long way though - 9 months ago, she wouldn't have been able to settle down as quickly as she did.


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## Elisabeth Kazup

Our pup reached the 18 month mile stone last Saturday. Hang in there.

When he was like that...going nuts on walks, leaping at me, biting me, I used our can of pennies. Yep, tucked that baby in my pocket and got it out as necessary. We had to use it at home, in the house as well. There's something about it that immediately transcends whatever is going on in their puppy brain and brings them back to earth.

However, it's imperative that you use it at home so he knows what it means. I also used a word with it. He'd be leaping and slashing at me, I'd shake the can HARD and sometimes throw it a few feet from him (never at him; okay there was that once but he needed it) and then use the word "settle". The effect was immediate. During one walk, when I had forgotten the can, he went nuts so I threw down my keys. It worked. 

I always wonder about people who see him happily trotting along side me or his dad, out walking on a nice spring day, happy smile, tail waving cheerfully, who think "ah, Golden Retrievers are the BEST dogs". They didn't see what just happened a block before! LOL


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## penparson

I wish this thread had been started 4 years ago and feel your pain. Wakefield was a real problem child when it came to over-arousal biting and was at his worst when on a leash. I spent his first summer with my forearms covered in scratches and bruises, with many holes in my clothing and ended up fencing part of the back yard the following summer so I didn't have to walk him as much! 

It took me quite a while to pick up on his cues. When he's about to get wired, he does a little dance on his hind legs, puts his right paw on the leash and starts mouthing. He usually does this on the way home from a walk. I was so desperate when he was a pup that I'd drive him down the road in the car to start the walk in a different place so I didn't have to deal with the return home.

I've found several solutions that work for him. I always carry a mesh muzzle in my pocket just in case we end up in an uncomfortable situation. (He's also an excessive greeter and very short-term use of the muzzle seems to work.) I carry a treat pouch and reward good behavior - he loves the Milk Bone minis. He's often on a 30 foot training lead when we're on a trail or around our rural condominium complex. He gets to play for the first part of the walk and then we train on the way home. There were times when it was "sit, wait, come..." repeatedly all the way back to the house. When we're nearing the house, I tell him "inside" and he gets NOTHING for a reward until he's inside.

Each dog is different and Wake has been, by far, the most difficult of my four goldens. But he's also the goofiest and most affectionate. Good luck!


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## Anele

*QUESTION: How many of you have another dog in the house and dealing with overarousal biting?

lloyddobler,* it sounds like you are making GREAT progress!!! Yes!!! As for bringing him to work, if the walk to work is a problem, then I would crate him or leave him in an ex-pen if he is OK in there and not bring him to work. Not forever- but while you get this figured out.

RE: nipping at home, I would leave the room every single time now. Be very consistent-- otherwise, he is sort of confused because there are varied responses. If you leave the room EVERY time, then it will be easier for you (no thinking!). My trainer encouraged me to use a word like "enough" when I leave, too-- it makes sense b/c then you are not just leaving to get something-- he will learn it is tied to what he has done.

Loukia has mentioned that she hears the "growing out of it" excuse a lot, and I am sort of thinking that it really isn't good enough! She has made super progress with her pup and he is in the midst of the teen phase, so I think we need to rethink that excuse. In other words, while there will be new challenges, it doesn't mean we just suffer through them.

As for being normal, what I've read is that it is sort of in the middle for concerning behavior. Not nothing, not horrible. I don't know how common.


*Rkaymay,* very interesting about being overstimulated now and being able to settle. How do you get her to settle?


*Penny's Mom*, 18 months? That is a long time away for me!! I don't think I can use the can, though.  I have many kids, and we have a noisy house! I have worked hard to help him understand that noise = nothing, so I want to keep it that way, if that makes sense. SO TRUE about the whole "best dog ever." My puppy looks like a service dog in his little harness, and often he walks like one, too! But sometimes he looks psycho! 


*penparson*, 4 years?? Wow-- they really do not just automatically outgrow this, but it sounds like it is MUCH improved. I like your tip for bringing a muzzle, just in case!

We had another good day (no biting or mouthing at all) but I did not walk him! AT ALL! Just hung out in the backyard and house with structured activities, time in the ex-pen/crate, time chewing near us, practicing being calm, tug, and nosework. So, sort of cheating, but also not cheating because it means nothing bad happened; we did not get the unwanted behavior reinforced.

I am going to start ANOTHER thread when I am not exhausted about calmness. It's interesting when you learn one thing-- you start to make connections and find info to support/augment what you are leaning . . .and that is what I have been finding with calmness!http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Chritty

Calm is king!!


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## lloyddobler

We had a great day too! No unwanted biting!! I never thought I'd see the day! What is helping me over these last 24 hours is going for shorter but more frequent walks abc reinforce with a high value treat often. He loves string cheese so I'm giving him tiny pieces for sitting and loose leash walking. I also give him a little when he sniffs his harness before putting it on, a little when the harness us on, a little when he sits by the door, etc. he used to be a nightmare to even get out the door and this approach has really helped a ton. He starts out the walk calm and stays calmer. 

I really think I was completely overdoing it before with walking him about 2 hours every day with off leash time at the park (30 to 60 min). Today we likely walked for about 40 min total and he was such a good boy all day.

He did get a little overexcited when I was making dinner. However, when he jumped up I said no and got down to pet him until he calmed down. Then once I started back to baking dinner he laid there just fine. 

I am trying not to get too crazy hopeful as it has been one day, but I never thought I'd be able to say we went a while day with no issues of biting!!!!


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## Rkaymay

Hmmm... It took a long time to teach her to settle down, but we did it by remaining consistent and utilizing the crate when necessary. Now it's kind of a mix of things based on her response. We have a couple commands we use - "enough", "play time's over", and "go lay down". This is what I tell my siblings to tell her when she gets excited with them. I also will get down on her level and hold her and firmly but calmly pet her - that works better for my fiancé than me. What works best for me, I think, is a really monotone voice; I wouldn't even describe it as calm, more emotionless. The voice I use when praising is closer to calm, with happy tones.

I also want to point out that even at a year and a half, Zelda can't handle a training session for more than 5 minutes, less if it involves new commands. That gets her very worked up.


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## lloyddobler

So, just when I was feeling really good... It didn't last. We added about an additional 1/4 of a mile to our walk this morning. He was doing great, until a construction worker with a bag that had tons of tools clinking around walked by us and talked to him in a high pitched voice. The combo of his big bag making lots of noise and his high pitched excited voice sent him off into a biting frenzy. The cheese could not even distract him from his mission to bite me all over. 

I really hope the trainer will respond to my email and call. If I don't hear from her by the end of the work day, I will call, call and email again. I just can't take it any more. I'm in tears because I feel like I'm trying so so so hard.

Anele- you are right. Every time he jumps or gets overly excited, I have to remove myself. Every time. Sometimes it a major pain in the butt as we're in the middle of making dinner or something else that is difficult to just leave. But, it's the only way he'll figure it out.

As far as this over excited biting, I still just don't know. I realize I have to keep him calm and not over-do it. But, I can't control every aspect of the environment and there are always going to be people who will do/say things that may set him off. I need to figure out how to get his attention and his mind to be on me and what we are doing.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni

Sending you all a hug.


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## Anele

*Rkaymay-- *do you see a change in how fast she gets excited now that she is getting older?

*lloyddobler*-- don't panic! Think of yourself as a scientist gathering data! This is what we've learned:

(1) *QUIT WHILE WE ARE AHEAD!* I think this is a big one. You saw great progress one day, but then immediately pushed-- and it didn't work out. That's OK-- now we know! It is a million, bazillion times better to work UNDER the threshold at this time instead of testing the waters. If that means 10 minute walks with success, then keep the 10 minute walks going for awhile-- not 11, 12, 13, etc.

(2)*There are environmental triggers! * So, now we've learned this isn't just an issue with him being tired (or maybe it could have caused that, too-- start checking for time of day). The noise, the excitement of a person, etc. all contributed. Start keep track of what sets him off.

(3) *You NEED the muzzle. * I feel very pained thinking about you getting bitten. This has to stop-- now. The muzzle keeps everyone safe. You have tried awesome food and that didn't work. OK! Now we know. Remember that it could take a little bit so that he accepts it, so you need plan B. Are there places you can tether him on your walks? Then, if he starts biting, you immediately tether him, and get away from his jumping. Look at the article I posted in the OP for additional ideas.

You are doing GREAT. Progress is not without mistakes, and we are learning more about your dog when those mistakes happen. When that trainer finally gets back, you are going to have a lot of AWESOME information to give her, and will be way ahead.


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## Anele

I just wanted to talk about the nosework book I got. It is fantastic! My daughter and I often joke about how our dog's nose doesn't seem to work too well, so I wasn't hopeful about it. However-- within 2 training sessions, he has made fantastic progress. Nosework is supposed to tire dogs out without overstimulating them. It really is perfect for our dogs who are easily aroused!

The book is $9, very easy to read, and addresses the nuances of each exercise. I learned a lot within just the first few pages.

If you don't have a yard, that's OK-- you will just need a long line to keep your dog safe.

The Canine Kingdom of Scent: Fun Activities Using Your Dog's Natural Instincts


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## etoms

Hey everyone,

Thank you Anele for starting this!! 

I can relate to all of this... A few days ago I would have said that Kitsune isn't an aggressive biter, just a seriously persistent nipper. In the last two days, she's now become a bit harder on the bite both on/off leash and still just as persistent. Still not aggressive where I'm fearful, but it's hurting more rather than less. She really goes for the arms, hands and my hair. She has her good days and her "bad" days (in quotes because training isn't complete and I guess I can't fault her for something I haven't done a good job of telling her it's not acceptable... as frustrated as I can get).



lloyddobler said:


> I really think I was completely overdoing it before with walking him about 2 hours every day with off leash time at the park (30 to 60 min). Today we likely walked for about 40 min total and he was such a good boy all day.


Lloyd, I struggle with this! I can never tell if it's over-tiredness that makes her worse, or not having been exercised enough. There's no rhyme or reason; she can be wound up on days where she gets a lot of exercise time and on days when she doesn't.

Kit had her first obedience class last night, and we got a can of compressed air on the recommendation of the trainer and hearing how it's worked for other people. When the trainer used it, it seemed to work -- but it was more for just excited jumping at that point. We'll see how effective it is in the long term and if it curtails nipping as well.


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## lloyddobler

Being at my wits end, I sent a note to my breeder to see if she had seen this before and had any suggestions. She said that she hadn't seen this herself before, but would focus on establishing herself as the leader. Put the dog on the ground on his back and make sure he knows who's boss. I was surprised at that suggestion as that is the old school way. Anyone else hear this suggestion? Even if I were to try it on Lloyd, I don't think it would work and may make it worse. 

Just thought I would share that this is what she suggestion. Please don't mistake this as me telling anyone that they should try this!  Just sharing what I'm learning from all the various people I reach out to.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is extremely confused with all the conflicting info out there on this issue! It's making my head spin.


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## Cpc1972

No never do that. You will create aggression.


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## rabernet

Anele said:


> I just wanted to talk about the nosework book I got. It is fantastic! My daughter and I often joke about how our dog's nose doesn't seem to work too well, so I wasn't hopeful about it. However-- within 2 training sessions, he has made fantastic progress. Nosework is supposed to tire dogs out without overstimulating them. It really is perfect for our dogs who are easily aroused!
> 
> The book is $9, very easy to read, and addresses the nuances of each exercise. I learned a lot within just the first few pages.
> 
> If you don't have a yard, that's OK-- you will just need a long line to keep your dog safe.
> 
> The Canine Kingdom of Scent: Fun Activities Using Your Dog's Natural Instincts


Nosework is something I've been interested in for Noah - I always see him scenting the air. Thank you for this recommendation - please let us know as you work through it, your thoughts!

Have you also seen this one?


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## overmyer24

ah - I'm so happy it's not just us. I thought Golden's were supposed to be a great family dog? We have our guy that's 8 months old, he is cute as hell and can be so cuddly at times, but then there are times where he resource guards (socks, etc.) We hired a trainer who has done a pretty good job with Cooper, however he will go on biting frenzies too. We will be walking and he will be fine, but then he wants to bite his leash as we turn the corner to go home (he's smart obviously). I'm tall, so I hold the leash high in the air and let him jump, if he starts to get me somehow, I lift it higher. He is a friendly dog with others, he is extremely submissive when other dogs want to play, but he's great with them and kids. It's just my wife and I that he likes to take bites out of, especially if we're playing. I wish he'd outgrow this, but it doesnt' seem that's going to be the case.


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## lloyddobler

I just ordered some books that appear to address some of what we are going through. Hopefully they are helpful:

Behavior Adjustment Training: BAT for Fear, Frustration, and Aggression in Dogs 

On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals 

Fired Up, Frantic, and Freaked Out: Training the Crazy Dog from Over the Top to Under Control

I get them on Saturday and will report back!


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## Rkaymay

She still gets excited frequently, but she is able to calm down much more quickly. For instance, she'll start tugging on her leash, but quit within seconds. I think the most important thing to remember, guys, is BE CALM. I know it's so very, very hard when you're getting bit, but take deep breaths and calm your mind. Dogs can sense the tension through the leash.

They really aren't doing it on purpose, it is just a reaction. Like a toddler when they get upset and can't calm themselves down, so they scream and cry and kick until they've worn themselves out. That is what our pups do.


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## Chritty

lloyddobler said:


> Being at my wits end, I sent a note to my breeder to see if she had seen this before and had any suggestions. She said that she hadn't seen this herself before, but would focus on establishing herself as the leader. Put the dog on the ground on his back and make sure he knows who's boss. I was surprised at that suggestion as that is the old school way. Anyone else hear this suggestion? Even if I were to try it on Lloyd, I don't think it would work and may make it worse.
> 
> Just thought I would share that this is what she suggestion. Please don't mistake this as me telling anyone that they should try this!  Just sharing what I'm learning from all the various people I reach out to.
> 
> I'm sure I'm not the only one who is extremely confused with all the conflicting info out there on this issue! It's making my head spin.



I do believe that you can create a leadership role without creating an extremely high stress situation like an alpha roll. 

I wouldn't go with this suggestion from your breeder


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## Chritty

Rkaymay said:


> I had a lot of success with a pinch collar. Zelda responds to it well, and I rarely used it for corrections; rather, when she lost control I just stepped on the leash so she couldn't jump. It was very helpful for us.



Do you think that the use of the prong collar made Z a happier dog? Having a clear delineation between right and wrong?


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## Rkaymay

Chritty said:


> Do you think that the use of the prong collar made Z a happier dog? Having a clear delineation between right and wrong?


I don't know that SHE really cared either way, but it made ME a happier and less tense leader, which in turn made her happier and less tense. It certainly doesn't make her a sad dog, because she never fights it or tries to get it off once it's on.


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## lloyddobler

I'm not taking the breeders suggestion. I would not be comfortable trying to dominate my pup. I noted that I was not suggesting anyone should follow the advice.


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## Cpc1972

One of the things I have heard that you can do to show your boss. When you come in from outside always walk in first and let your pup follow. I dont know if it really works.


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## Chritty

lloyddobler said:


> I'm not taking the breeders suggestion. I would not be comfortable trying to dominate my pup. I noted that I was not suggesting anyone should follow the advice.



I know. Was just reiterating your sentiment


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## Anele

rabernet said:


> Nosework is something I've been interested in for Noah - I always see him scenting the air. Thank you for this recommendation - please let us know as you work through it, your thoughts!
> 
> Have you also seen this one? http://www.amazon.com/Fun-Nosework-Dogs-2nd-Ed/dp/1888994037/ref=pd_bxgy_14_text_y


I did see that one! I decided on the one I got to start with because I liked that the author was trained @ the Turid Rugaas Dog School, so I figured I'd like her methods and philosophy-- and have not been disappointed!

We've done 3 training sessions so far and I have seen a DRAMATIC improvement. We've been playing "find it" since Kevin was about 10 weeks old, but even as of yesterday, we could throw a treat within inches of his face . . .and he often couldn't/wouldn't look hard for it. We pointed it out to him or he'd give up very easily. (Which, by the way, you aren't supposed to point out treats! Oops!)

Yesterday we started out with throwing treats (there's a specific method outlined in the book) onto our cement patio. He was improving quickly. Today I thought I'd move the treats to the grass which seems much harder (2nd session). By the 3rd session, he spent twenty minutes-- OMG-- 20 minutes!!! sniffing the grass to find treats. Before he'd sniff for about 20 seconds! It was like something "clicked" with him. Next time I won't let him go for so long, though, because he could get bored/tired/frustrated eventually instead of wanting to come back for more.

So, this is something I can see we will continue working on. It is supposed to be really tiring for them, and requires *CALM CONCENTRATION*. Also-- benefits are shown in cooperation, relationship building, and better performance in other areas like obedience.

There is something in the book (don't have it in front of me, so wording won't be right) about it being a time where the roles reverse and the DOG is being the leader, using his skills/abilities. I really like this idea. 

Interestingly, the author says that the way a dog solves a problem the first time is the way the dog will ALWAYS do it, even if the next session comes years later . . .so you have to do it (tracking) right! We are nowhere near that point-- we are just doing the very beginning foundation exercises.


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## Anele

My daily update!

We did one short walk today-- no problems. I did it earlier in the day so he was not hyped up/overtired. 

2 incidents of nipping:
(1) When my oldest daughter took him out-- she broke the rule of being out in the yard sans treats. (Always have some kibble in thy pocket!) He came bounding over to her after NOT jumping on my other daughter (good boy!). She says he jumped more than nipped (she said it was more than mouthing, but wasn't hard biting), though I don't want him to practice the nipping at all! So, we went over the rules and she knows what to do next time. For the future, if he comes bounding over, she'll give him the touch command, treat, have him do a little obedience, and then quickly bring him in or tether him outside. 

(2) Later at night when he was tired (I didn't let him nap too much today-- oops), my other daughter came into the living room being very loud/excited/out of control. So, he started jumping and nipping. That quickly was stopped-- she got out of the room-- and then she went to bed! 

The rest of the day was fine with no other jumping or mouthing. A lot of calm activities, tug, nosework, practicing impulse control, cuddles while chewing-- even in the midst of all 5 children-- relaxing on mat, relaxing in ex-pen, and a nap in the crate.

OH, and my husband played with him with the flirt pole. He did NOT get out of control at all (he jumps/bites my DH, too). Nice play session! I was very pleased.

So-- I think the #1 way to think about it is-- (a) how can I prevent it RIGHT NOW and (b) what will my plan be if it happens anyway?

The way we do it now will hopefully NOT be the way it will be forever. I forever do not expect to have to carry treats to the yard. I forever will not be worried that he will act out on walks. But, if I CONTINUE to not prevent it, then it's sort of the definition of insanity-- keep doing things the same way and hope that the outcome will be different. 

Also-- got the Agility Right from the Start book-- it is $ but it is $ because it is like a textbook! I think that the activities listed will really support our work with helping our puppies be calm, focused, and obedient! I can't get started right away because there is a lot of reading first . . .

AND, not that I am ANY expert in agility, but I really think if you are, you should avoid any sort of noise consequence and/or physical corrections when dealing with this. . .dogs in agility need to LIKE noise and need to trust their owners. Again, I am no expert-- just my opinion!


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## lloyddobler

Anele, what do you to practice impulse control? Also, I know I saw where you indicated an article or book for tug games, but for some reasons couldn't find it. Can you reference it again? I finally got a call from the highly recommend trainer this afternoon Unfortunately, she can't see me for 1 - 2 months. However, she did suggest we start by training him how to play tug appropriately and have that be the default behavior when he is over-aroused for a period of time. 

I contacted another trainer today because I simply cannot wait 1 - 2 months and will see if she is able to help me. If not, I'll utilize the recommended trainer. I also start a puppy elementary class next week, so hopefully I'll get some helpful ideas there as well.

I was thinking tonight that this is just so difficult because I feel like I've failed my dog. Unlike others on this post, my only priorities in life right now are work and my dog. So, that makes me feel like a complete jerk. I don't have a husband or kids. While I do believe there is still hope, I realize through reading Control Unleashed and other things that the reason he is doing this is because he's trying to communicate something to me. Chances are he's afraid, fearful, anxious and/or something else that I haven't been able to figure out. I just wish I knew what to do to help him and what I need to do or not do so that he can enjoy his life more verses being so stressed that he acts out in that way. I'm sure with time and with the help of a trainer or trainers we will get to a better place. I just love him so much and don't want to fail him. I also want to be able to enjoy all things I love doing with a dog. Right now I feel dreadful when I think of having to put on the leash... and I KNOW he picks up on those things.


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## lloyddobler

Anele - also where does your pup sleep at night? My pup sleeps in my bed and I'm beginning to wonder if that is not a good idea. My previous two goldens slept with me and I never had these issues. But, I am now questioning everything I do. Maybe it would be better for him to sleep in his crate and learn to feel more secure on his own.


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## Anele

Impulse control-- we practice this mostly in 2 ways, though I'd like to add more-- through tug, and before he gets any food, chew, etc.

(1) Tug. The way we play (though there are MANY ways to play and this is so very basic) is-- I stand where he can't get me, on the other side of a gate in our house. I have a tug (new) that he loves. I put it away when we stop playing. I make him sit, and then say, "tug." He takes the tug, we play, and then at a certain point, I say "give," give him a treat. Then we repeat. I might send him to his mat when we are done. Now, as things progress, there are a million ways/uses for tug, but this is what works for now.

(2) With food. He has to default sit or down when he sees food. We put it down, and if he moves toward it, food goes back up/away. If he doesn't move at all then we continue putting it down. He must then maintain eye contact for x number of seconds. We are practicing doing it in different settings (outside and inside), when we approach from various positions, etc. The longest eye contact I can get right now is 4 seconds though sometimes I think I could get more. But, since we are varying it so much I go for no more than 4. If it is a new situation/harder than I aim lower.

You have NOT failed your dog. You are absolutely right that he is trying to communicate. The tough part is, what is he saying? I think he might be saying he needs less exercise. As for the street noise, for now, I would cross the street if possible to stay away from the exciting/too much noise or whatever. 

I know you dread the leash-- who wouldn't? Is there some reason you are against the muzzle-- what is keeping you from getting it? It isn't to be used forever. It is just for now, so that you feel better and you can take him out on a walk. You feeling better WILL help him feel better. I know you want to address the underlying issues, and the muzzle won't fix those-- but it will keep you safe, mentally and physically, and that is extremely important. 

What is the MINIMUM you can give him right now in terms of walks? I would do the minimum. I would do it in a quiet area with a lot of treats on you. Up your training and bonding safely at home. 

Have you taken classes with him? My dog loves classes!!! It is a place I can see him at his best. He looks happy and that makes me happy. If classes work against him, though, then no. Someone posted this site on GRF and it's worth a look: WELCOME TO DOG-GAMES - dog education & dog games © 2008 Copyright of Sally Hopkins

HUGS as we get through this together!!! And we WILL get through this!


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## Anele

lloyddobler said:


> Anele - also where does your pup sleep at night? My pup sleeps in my bed and I'm beginning to wonder if that is not a good idea. My previous two goldens slept with me and I never had these issues. But, I am now questioning everything I do. Maybe it would be better for him to sleep in his crate and learn to feel more secure on his own.


My pup sleeps in his crate, but he likes it. Other puppies do not-- each dog is different. I think it's fine if he sleeps with you if you are both happy with it.

Oh, and another thought about impulse-- have you ordered Crate Games? Can't remember. That is another huge help for impulse control. Check on Youtube for them, as well as It's Yer Choice.

I also have a list of "protocols"-- my excellent trainer introduced me to these. I would start working on the one for relaxation-- we are going to start these this week. (I should have been doing them already!) Behavior Protocols by Dr. Karen Overall There are videos online of people doing the tasks, too.


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## Loukia

Hi All, I just quickly read through the posts I've missed since I last checked in on this thread. Comet is by no means perfect, and he certainly has his days and has a long way to go, but he has made huge strides since I changed trainers and training methods. He still has his mouthy moments but his drastic improvements in obedience have made all the difference for him. So, hang in there! I can't say the methods that work for Comet will work for your dogs, because if I've learned anything it's that a cookie cutter approach doesn't work... each dog is different and has different triggers and motivators. But, there is an approach out there that will help!

Anele, to your point, I'm very glad I stopped listening to my previous trainer's advice of "just wait it out he's young and he'll get there... keep doing what you're doing, you're doing a great job." There were things I was doing wrong, accidentally of course, but wrong none the less. And, maybe I was making things worse, maybe I wasn't, but it wasn't helping my cause in any case. And when I met with Comet's current trainer, his advice was, if your dog is doing something you don't like, you need to work on it through training and if you don't, you're condoning the behavior and helping to solidify it over time. 

Just today, I took Comet outside after being gone a few hours. He was ALL excited and went outside and started doing zoomies around me (on the leash). This usually turns into him jumping and lunging up in the air, trying to bite the leash, my hand, my arm. Lately I've been trying to give obedience commands after he's run around a bit but I missed the mark today and he started to jump and bite. I walked into his space and sternly said "sit" and he did. I gave him a series of commands (sit, look, heel, sit, stay, etc.) and he snapped himself out of it. I was excited. But the real excitement came when we got back inside. He went crazy again and went to bite my son's pants/hip (his go to person to mouth and bite when he goes wild). My son (whom Comet NEVER seems to listen to), walked into his space and said "sit"... and Comet sat! I couldn't believe it! We immediately got out the treats and my son gave him a series of commands and gave him small pieces of turkey hot dog (his highest value reward) for each command he completed. So, with every step we take forward, there are often two back, but today was a turning point because it was the first time Comet has ever listened to my son. (YAY)

Regarding the various other posts. I agree with everyone here that an alpha roll is not the way to go. I think you're asking for trouble trying to alpha roll a dog that's wild and not thinking clearly. 

However, I do agree that dogs like ours who tend to have a stronger spirit, do better with limits and with knowing who is in charge. When I was going to my previous trainer they were very much against being in charge. They likened training to a partnership or dance, where you work together. I'm sure this method of thinking works for many dogs and perhaps it makes sense to an experienced dog owner that knows you need a level of dominance. But for someone like me, who was new to having a puppy and training a dog, it seemed to backfire on me, given that I have a more headstrong dog. 

When I started going to the trainer I'm with now (the one who has helped me make such big strides with Comet's behavior and obedience), he basically said that partnerships are for equals and Comet is not my equal, he's my dog and dogs behave better when they understand the rules and they know who to look to for guidance. So, he wasn't telling me to rule with an iron fist, but instead, he discussed how Comet needed to understand that I was the guide, not the partner, and that I would be the safe person Comet could always look to if he wasn't confident about what he had to do. Amazingly, taking this approach, I feel like Comet is actually a more confident dog and he seems happier. It's like he knows (some) of the rules now.

The trainer helped me establish some basic rules so that Comet would see me as the leader. He didn't say that Comet has to walk behind me at all times like Caesar Milan or that Comet could never walk ahead of me on the leash... nothing extreme. But he did suggest that Comet learn manners, for example that he has to let his people out of the door first and the he should sit and wait until he hears the "through" command. I thought it would take forever but he picked it up very quickly. Now, before I open any doors, I put Comet in a sit, I say "wait" and he'll sit there until I say "through". He makes mistakes from time to time and we have to start over, but he gets it and does well most of the time. I do the same thing on the stairs "sit", "wait", "through"... etc. He also told me to use my body to go into Comet's space if he was doing something I didn't like. For example, if he jumped up on me, walk into him while giving him a "sit" command. If he barks for attention, walk into his space and then give him an alternative behavior like "go get your toy" or "down", etc. What I see is that it throws Comet off just enough that it seems to stop his mouthiness for an instant or his barking for an instant, just long enough for me to give him a directive. It has helped my son too because where he used to try and get away from Comet, which made Comet want to bite him more, he now walks into Comet. It doesn't always work, but it seems to work better and it buys me a few seconds to help if I'm across the kitchen. 

Anele writes: "*So-- I think the #1 way to think about it is-- (a) how can I prevent it RIGHT NOW and (b) what will my plan be if it happens anyway?*"... Great advice! Without realizing it, this is basically how we're approaching each day at our house. And if all else fails, Comet takes a break in his crate (so we can take a break too).

Thanks everyone for these great posts, pieces of advice, book ideas, etc. It's such a great thread and so helpful to read that Comet isn't alone in his mouthiness.


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## Anele

Loukia, I am so glad you are weighing in and sharing your experiences! It is so helpful to see progress and new ideas!

I'm about to head to bed, but quickly-- you mentioned sitting. Yes! We have been doing this for awhile (sitting before anything) but now I am being more strict/confident/CONSISTENT, etc. though I am upping my treat use as well during this phase. 

The protocols I mentioned have one specifically for this-- Protocol for Deference. It's good because it goes step-by-step, though I personally have never taught "stay" (it's taught in the protocol) because I want it to be a default behavior. I used Kikopup's method and it works-- most of the time, my dog will STAY in a sit (without me giving an additional "stay" cue) as the default. Kikopup's Stay. Then I release him.

ETA: A huge YAY!!!!!!! for your son. That is a tremendous accomplishment from both him and Comet-- so thrilled for you!!!!


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## Loukia

lloyddobler said:


> I contacted another trainer today because I simply cannot wait 1 - 2 months and will see if she is able to help me...
> 
> I was thinking tonight that this is just so difficult because I feel like I've failed my dog. Unlike others on this post, my only priorities in life right now are work and my dog. So, that makes me feel like a complete jerk. I don't have a husband or kids. While I do believe there is still hope, I realize through reading Control Unleashed and other things that the reason he is doing this is because he's trying to communicate something to me. Chances are he's afraid, fearful, anxious and/or something else that I haven't been able to figure out. I just wish I knew what to do to help him and what I need to do or not do so that he can enjoy his life more verses being so stressed that he acts out in that way. I'm sure with time and with the help of a trainer or trainers we will get to a better place. I just love him so much and don't want to fail him. I also want to be able to enjoy all things I love doing with a dog. Right now I feel dreadful when I think of having to put on the leash... and I KNOW he picks up on those things.


Maybe you could ask that trainer if she has someone she could recommend while you wait the 2 months? She might have someone else good that at least uses her same methodology.

I know exactly how you feel when you say you feel like you failed your dog. Comet is my first puppy. I had to do a lot of begging to get him because my husband wasn't really on board. And then I found myself with a biting machine that didn't seem to stop when everyone elses dog did. When I went to the new trainer, he worked with me for about an hour, assessed Comet, and basically told me that we needed to start over. I could have cried right then and there... but I didn't want him to think I was crazy! I just felt so frustrated because I spent 6 months in weekly classes, private lessons, drop off lessons, etc. Not only did I spend a small fortune, but I spend countless hours trying to train Comet, then to be told I needed to start from the beginning. I held back my tears and asked him what I needed to do. He told me to go home and practice the "look" command for a week and then come back. As hopeless as I felt after that first meeting, it really was a turning point for us. 

You haven't failed your dog... I understand the feeling because I was right there with you about 2 months ago. At the 8 month mark, I had a husband who basically wanted to say "I knew we shouldn't have gotten a dog" and two children who didn't have the dog they had hoped for because he was so darn mouthy. But the truth is, you can always start fresh - you only fail your dog if you give up. A few days ago Comet turned 10 months and things are starting to really turn around.


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## Rkaymay

The behavior protocols are amazing. That's what Zelda and I worked on. We didn't get even halfway through the first relaxation one (whoops), but they were so helpful!


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## lloyddobler

I just got my crate games dvd today as well as Ruff Love. Anyone followed the Ruff Love training regimen? It seems very restrictive, but I know she's a very successful trainer. Curious if anyone has worked the program?


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## lloyddobler

I have completely made this thread my support and outlet/dairy for this stressful issue. This morning things did not go well AT ALL. We went for a short 4 block walk which we successfully did multiple times this week. However, today when we were about half way in (after doing great, by the way), I was having him sit and then allowed him to smell some shrubs and he ended up going potty. While he was doing that another dog (and their human) came walking down the sidewalk. The dog was very a large boxer, but was extremely calm, was not pulling, lunging or ANYTHING. However, Lloyd went nuts and started pulling toward this dog and barking and growling. He has NEVER done this before. He's always "seemed" happy to encounter other dogs and happily sniffs them.

I honestly don't know what is going on my pup, but I feel like I'm ruining him! I feel like the things I am doing are all wrong. I immediately went inside and made a vet appointment to rule out any physical issues.

I am going to get an appointment asap with the second trainer. I feel like the harder I try, the worse it gets, so clearly reading books and articles and trying implement solutions on my own isn't going to cut it. I need help as this is completely different from anything I've experience with my previous goldens. 

I just can't help but feel awful that I've failed him (at least up this point). I've honestly tried to EVERYTHING right, but now suspect I likely over-did with exercise and socialization and now I have a hyper-sensative puppy. He was so laid back and calm as a puppy, I thought all the things I was introducing him to were good for him.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni

Have a hug.

You know, they just published a big study in humans that concluded that nature and nurture were equal in terms of how a child turns out. I would suspect that would absolutely apply to dogs, as well. So it's not like every dog comes complete with perfect dog potential (in human terms), and then we wreck them. 

Every dog has its own combination of genetics, experiences, stress reactions, hormones, etc. etc. and we do the best we can. The very fact that we are on this board looking for the best ways to work with our dogs makes us pretty wonderful pet owners. So maybe try to stop blaming yourself so much?

He had a bad day. But who knows, maybe the boxer gave him a side eye or just was intimidating because he wasn't giving off happy signals?

Every dog is a work in progress, just like every human. Be gentle with yourself?


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## lloyddobler

Thank you! I know I'm tough on myself, but like all of us, I just want what is best for my boy.  I know my stress and anxiety around this are definitely not helping this. Thank you for the gentle reminder.


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## Loukia

Is it possible that perhaps, since Lloyd was going potty, that the Boxer really caught him off guard and he freaked out a bit because he felt like the dog was in his space while he was vulnerable? I wouldn't panic too much over one incident. As you mentioned, Lloyd usually sees happy to see other dogs. 

I do agree that going to see your vet and making an appointment with the second trainer is a great idea. Like you, I read until my head spun. Reading certainly helps but it can only get you so far when you're dealing with a challenge... it can't replace the experience of a great trainer. 

With Comet's new trainer, I quickly learned that there isn't a one-fits-all approach, so bringing in an expert to help you determine which approaches resonate with your dog in various situations is a great way to move forward. I'm hoping you'll feel better after you meet with the trainer. Hopefully it will take the pressure off of you because you don't have to try to figure out how to fix the challenges and you can instead defer to the expert.


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## Keleigh

Have you considered looking for a certified behaviorist? They may be able to help you shed a little more light on his behavior, much more than the majority of trainers can.


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## lloyddobler

Yes, I finally have an appointment with a behaviorist next Saturday! Finally! 

Until then I plan to document everything for as many data points as possible for them to review.


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## Anele

First, *the Good*.

No real issues at all this week-- a little gentle mouthing for maybe 2 seconds some days, and some days none at all. He is able to be VERY calm in the house. In fact, he is calm almost all the time. He chases the cat sometimes but we can get him to calm quickly. Last night my daughter worked with him on running alongside a little wagon vs. running out of control; he did great. When I put his mat down in any room on the 1st floor, he will quickly settle on it. Yesterday, I put him on his mat, left the room, and he was STILL THERE when I came back. Same thing today. Put him on his mat, went outside to the garage, came in-- still there. My daughter is working on retrieving with him and is having success in short spurts.

He always wants to be near us, cuddles, now will sit for petting all on his own (he has finally learned to enjoy pets!), isn't destructive unless there is paper (but on walks, he automatically leaves paper-- part of the reason he isn't destructive is that his areas are very puppy proofed-- would not trust him around kids' toys), can't remember the last time he had an accident in the house, doesn't bark when we leave, sleeps as long as I want him to in the crate, is getting better about not counter surfing (not like I'd leave food out, though!), walks pretty well on the leash (though he will lunge and get excited for dogs, but generally he walks on a loose leash), etc. He is getting really got at the rules of tug, too. Rides very well in the car, doesn't bark much (yet-- I am trying to work on prevention). Doing MUCH better when I handle his collar and lead him, too. Now he goes willingly. Mouth is super soft when he takes treats.

I've been able to take him to a few play sessions which are monitored by a trainer the whole time. (We stay, too.) He is VERY good with other dogs. He will adjust himself to them. If they are more active, he'll be active. Calm, will calm himself. A dog that wants to be left alone? No problem-- he can take the hint. 

So, he is not perfect, or anything, but with management/prevention of issues I usually feel successful. He is always up for "whatever" and seems to enjoy learning. I've been beginning nosework with him, which he really likes, and have been preparing myself to work on more agility foundation work with him.

*The Bad*
The arousal biting is a big problem. Really, the only thing I see as a problem-- but it is a HUGE problem. We were able to prevent situations completely this week by keeping everything low-key, or managed in other ways-- if kids want to run outside, he's on a tether. (And he sits and watches.) 

I broke my own rule today. I thought we could do a trip to the forest preserve. We've done them before with no problems, and I wanted him to get some real exercise/get nice and tired. They are a good place for him because he can sniff/explore without counting on treats. I thought IF he got aroused, I could catch him, calm him, and then go.

Found a nice preserve close to my house and took my 8 y.o. daughter with me. I let Kevin pretty much lead the way, didn't insist on him being near me, let him sniff and explore-- tried to do it by going with him vs. being pulled, though he did pull sometimes. He got to go on logs, go in the water, see/smell interesting things . . . it was great.

We were about 30 minutes in, and came upon a prairie. I felt Kevin get more aroused there, and knew we had to go, but it took a little bit to actually go so we could do it safely. I had him practice sitting, we did some of the calming protocol (though I should have done it longer). I could feel his mouth getting harder with treats-- though I could get it soft again quickly. We were heading out of it (it was off the path) and then I knew it was going to happen-- he started to really pull, like he wanted to take off running. I couldn't let him do that for MANY reasons, obviously, including the fact that it's illegal at the preserve. Got him to calm-- but then he did it again, and when I didn't let him go, he turned on me, grabbing my skin through 2 layers (coat and shirt). I tried to remain very calm, told him to sit, he ignored (of course). My treat bag had fallen off-- I couldn't even get it because I was being bitten-- had to try to explain to my 8 y.o. to find the pepperoni in it-- (in other words, he was NOT going after the food-- he was going after ME), and once with the pepperoni, he was able to be calm and we quickly made it back to the car.

He didn't break the skin but I know I will get new bruises now. 

So, I broke my rule, and I paid for it.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni

First, sending a hug.

Second...where is Kevin in getting his adult teeth? Griffey is teething like crazy...drooling, chewing...and where he's always had a pretty soft mouth with me, he is getting rougher with my husband. I know he's often not feeling well because where he was sleeping through the night beautifully from his third night home, he is very restless now and gets me up at least once...more on a bad night.

I'm just wondering if Kevin's mouth isn't on his mind most of the time right now and when he gets frustrated, it's the only remedy he knows to chomp down?


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## Anele

Noreaster said:


> First, sending a hug.
> 
> Second...where is Kevin in getting his adult teeth? Griffey is teething like crazy...drooling, chewing...and where he's always had a pretty soft mouth with me, he is getting rougher with my husband. I know he's often not feeling well because where he was sleeping through the night beautifully from his third night home, he is very restless now and gets me up at least once...more on a bad night.
> 
> I'm just wondering if Kevin's mouth isn't on his mind most of the time right now and when he gets frustrated, it's the only remedy he knows to chomp down?


Thank you for the hug. My husband dismisses this. 

I feel like a lot of his adult teeth have come in? 

When does Griffey get rougher with your husband?

I guess I don't like this pattern-- don't get what you want, bite hard. It only happens outside. I wanted a dog to take on hikes, so this isn't working for me! 

We went to a festival yesterday where they did a border collie demo-- and then the BC people invited everyone to go to their farm to meet their sheep in a few weeks. We can bring dogs, too! I was going to bring Kevin, but I guess I can't. If he gets frustrated or over-stimulated, forget it.

And man, do those BC WORK. I read that they can run over 100 miles A DAY. 

I feel sorry for the sheep, though. 

They also had a search and rescue demo with GSDs. Wish I got to see that, too!


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## Cpc1972

Sounds like things are getting a little better.

Chloe has lost most of her teeth. But they are still coming through the gums. Her gums have been red and swollen. When she jumps up on me with something in her mouth she doesn't bite at all. As soon as that toy falls out she is all over my hands. This happens a couple times a day. I say it is still her teeth bothering her. It's like she doesn't know what to do when something isn't in her mouth. She has started picking up a stuffie when we come home or someone comes over.


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## Anele

Cpc1972 said:


> Sounds like things are getting a little better.
> 
> Chloe has lost most of her teeth. But they are still coming through the gums. Her gums have been red and swollen. When she jumps up on me with something in her mouth she doesn't bite at all. As soon as that toy falls out she is all over my hands. This happens a couple times a day. I say it is still her teeth bothering her. It's like she doesn't know what to do when something isn't in her mouth. She has started picking up a stuffie when we come home or someone comes over.


Sounds like normal puppy nipping, not due to arousal. I am sure she'll stop once her teeth come in.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni

I hadn't really thought about this before...but Griffey is the first retriever I've had as a puppy. My other puppies were Bichons and assorted herding breeds and they showed zero discomfort with teething.

Since a soft mouth in a retrieve is a desired quality in these dogs, maybe they have much more sensitive mouths and more pain with teething?


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## Rundlemtn

Hi Anele, just wanted to say it seems as though there are a lot of positive things happening with your pup! It kind of sounds like others have said before that he is just acting out a bit when he wants to get his way. I have a feeling that this might just be a thing he is going through that disappears over time, or at least lessens significantly. I bet you will get your hiker yet. I know it might be hard, but I think the stress you are feeling in some of these situations might also be a trigger. Dogs can sense these things. 
If it helps, Rundle has her moments when she acts out too. For example, crossing the street she jumps and bites at the leash because she gets very excited. I know people in their cars probably think my dog is a menace... but, I just get her across the street, put her in a sit, and then we carry on our merry way. Eventually I believe that crossing the street will become less exciting for her. She's is still just a puppy.


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## lloyddobler

Anele - I am envious of all the GOOD! You are doing a GREAT job. I just started training Lloyd to go to his mat and his preference is to bunch it up, chew on it and has even attempted humping it. So, needless to say, we have a LONG way to go before he learns to go there to settle. 

I wanted to share a book I bought yesterday that is a very quick read that really helped me. "On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals" by Turid Rugaas. It is NOT a prescriptive book in that it told me what to do to deal with over arousal biting, but it very much helped me understand my dog's body language and what he is trying to tell me. I now feel much better prepared to prevent the over arousal before it turns into a full on biting frenzy. And I feel better prepared to manage the situation once it happens. My own body language plays a part and there are simple things we can do to make them more relaxed as well.

I realized through reading the book that my pup is much more of a nervous guy than I ever thought. I just wasn't reading his body language the right way. The book gave me lots of ideas on what I can do when I start to sense he is becoming tense, such as move to the other side of the street, turn around, move away from him, yawn. Very simple things that will help calm him.

After I read the book, we went on a longer walk last night with no issues. 

However, today I had to take him to the vet (due to the stinker swallowing a rubber band outside and having runny poops - never a dull moment with this guy... thankfully, the vet thinks he will be fine... one more thing to worry about though!). The vets office is about a mile away and parking is a nightmare, so we walked through very busy city streets. The walk there was just fine. However, on the way back we stopped in a pet store where I proceeded to spend another $70 on him (after now spending $200 at the vet this week). I was carrying the plastic bag with all of his stuff and it was making noises which got him excited. He bit at the bag and ripped a whole in it.... this was when we were walking on a bridge with a narrow sidewalk with lots of people walking by.... I tried to stay calm and prevent everything I just bought from falling out and couldn't focus on his needs right then and there. He became more excited and then starting biting my butt. One woman stopped dead in her tracks and gave me the evil eye... if I could read her mind I'm here she was thinking what is wrong with that girl??? Why can't she control her dog?

Unfortunately, I was in a bad situation there and didn't have enough hands to deal appropriately on a very busy bridge with tons of people. We made it home from there and he got a little excited again a couple blocks from home, but that time I was just able to move away from him to send him the signal that I wasn't playing and he stopped.

We're all a work in progress and will make mistakes. The good news is that we are all learning from them and trying to do the right things to ensure we don't repeat them again.

Anele - I wanted to think Lloyd's biting was a teething issue as I've read that they can experience a lot of discomfort through 9 months at their teeth "settle". However, I agree with you that our pup's behavior is more than than that.... However, I think you are doing all the right things and are doing a wonderful job! 

Like I said earlier... I'm in awe of all the great stuff you have trained Kevin to do! I am working on Lloyd, but predict it will take a LONG time to get where you already are.


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## Anele

Oh, Noreaster, how I wish I had a Bichon right now!!!! I got suckered into the image of a goofy Golden with mischief and puppy nipping and play. Not a dog who is easily frustrated and bites hard when he is upset.  Interesting thought about the soft mouth, though this seems to be a not-so-common problem. 

3Pebs3, a little leash biting would be OK! I would feel a lot better. Thank you for helping me see the good. I do hope this is just a phase!

lloyddobler, our mat is just a towel! I bought a flat, cushy bed for him to use, but he WILL chew that up. A towel is pretty safe, so maybe try that? And trust me, if he gets bored, he will start to rip the towel, too! I always have to be one step ahead, whereas I am usually falling/slipping/etc.

RE: Calming Signals, I learned a lot about these though I am no expert. I try to calm my dog with them but it won't work when he is hyped-- and I have not noticed them to prevent, either, though likely I do them wrong. So, while they are great for me to understand him, I don't feel like he gets it when I try them! One thing I've wondered-- if calming signals show a dog is stressed, and then I do calming signals, haven't I just shown my dog that I am stressed?I've wondered that a lot! (But I didn't read the book so I don't know what I am talking about!)

I think you have just found another VERY important piece of info, though, in noticing that your dog is nervous in some situations. Your behaviorist will appreciate that!

Unfortunately, with my dog I think it's frustration aggression.  I am no behaviorist, have had zero training, but that is what Google tells me, haha!

The trip to the vet-- ACK. That sounds awful, though if you think about it, also not, because there was a lot (noises, vet, store, plastic bag, busy streets) and it was only at the end he would act up. My puppy is HORRIBLE about plastic bags, too. Whenever I go outside to pick up poo, either he isn't there, or I bring great food. Then he has to sit while I do it, and I have to treat him for being still-- which is hard to do in a sanitary way (I mean, I don't TOUCH the poo, but you can't be too careful). This has helped with the plastic bag thing but I would never trust him while out and about, as we've only practiced in the yard. (Thankfully, he does his business in the yard before we go on walks!)

The walk with no issues? PARTY!!!!! You are having more and more successes. I guess that is what we have to focus on-- every "little" success is a HUGE success. No such thing as a small success! We will take steps backwards, but then progress. Like you said-- we are LEARNING! I bet I have learned waaaaay more about dog training than I ever would have if my dog were easy! 

So, in my thinking about this, it seemed that I had problems once we switched harnesses. HMM!!! Early on, I used a flat collar. He rarely pulled but I didn't like to think of him choking when he did, so I got a SENSIBLE harness. (That's the name, not my judgment of it, haha!) It worked very, very well, but he felt uncomfortable in it and it was wearing off his fur! That is no good! Then I realized it was actually restricting him-- no good! (I am surprised my R+ trainer told me to use it-- not the trainer I've been raving about here.)

Anyway, then we moved to the Ruffwear harness. It has a front and back attachment, but while I waited for it to arrive, I went back to the collar b/c I didn't want him to be so uncomfy and he walked well in the collar overall. That is when the 1st incident happened! 

Then, after a short time with the Ruffwear harness, the front clip BROKE while on the walk (thankfully, he came back to me with the touch command) but the second he realized it broke, he went WILD off his leash. (I still can't believe I got him to come back.) That was the first time he ever went WILD outside. So it sort of put it in his mind that wild on leash = fun? To this day, he will occasionally act in the wild way on the lawn of the very house where the harness broke. CRAZY. He is trying to recreate it on the spot! 

So, where I'm at for anyone dealing with this:
(1) NOT going to tempt fate again by trying out a longer/too stimulating walk. (So funny/not funny-- I was just telling my trainer how I couldn't believe people do things like that by testing the waters, and then I did it!!!)
(2) Going to get either a head collar OR a harness with a front clip (have been using back clip one of Ruffwear)
(3) Not cryhttp://www.goldenretrieverforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Garou

I am familiar with the butt-bite! And Loukia's mention of Comet biting the walls to get attention is known here as well -- although with us, it's the blinds. Or more recently, the pomegranate tree. No fruit for me this year! (Actually, Comet sounds A LOT like Crosby!) He's nine months now… So it's bratty teenage central around here!

The big one for me that we're trying to work through is body-slamming and run-by bites when he's got zoomies. It seems to be teed off by me walking the backyard. I think Crosby gets excited and wants to play… And I just don't happen to play like other dogs. He hasn't torn clothing or broken skin in months, but those teeth still leave bruises, and sixty pounds of flying dog is enough to knock me over! I freeze, cross my arms and scowl at him, demanding in a no-nonsense tone, "Do you want a time out?" That's usually enough to make him sit. If I take a step and he starts up again, I make him stay in a sit, or do a series of commands. Then I tell him, "let's get a treat," and usually that redirects the excitement. (If not… Time out in the crate for a minute!)

I ONE HUNDRED PERCENT agree with the idea that giving them commands and rules is the ticket. Crosby's nose work wears him out mentally (after yesterday's ORTs and a 2 hour class today, he was delightful), even more than extra exercise does. Sometimes, oddly, extra exercise makes it impossible for him to settle, and then he's exhausted and acting out, which makes him a "puppy jerk!" 

I agree that alpha rolls are no good for these smart dogs -- arousal/aggression in my pup seems to be met with higher levels of each. If I grab his collar, sometimes he'll grab my hand in his mouth. I know that it's a show of dominance - so I start in with the commands again and he gets the picture. It's hard to not be emotionally hurt or get angry - I found myself telling Crosby, "but you're supposed to be my FRIEND!" the other day, when he slam-bit my arm. But I feel like we're making progress; bonding, understanding each other… Bit by bit! 

Thanks OP for making this great thread!


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## Anele

Garou, what do you do when the commands don't work? I am working on getting "sit" to be very automatic (instead of . . .pause, pause, pause, sit) but there is NO WAY in the world that my dog will comply when he is out of his mind! (Because when he bites, he IS out of his mind!) 

Tell me more about the nose work-- we are only doing it at home right now, just started! What is ORT?

And re:extra exercise--I feel like my dog is Goldilocks. Not TOO much exercise, not TOO little exercise. Everything has to be juuuuuuust right. (Goldilocks was a very picky trespasser!)

RE: collar holds-- my dog has bitten at those times too -- so now I avoid collar holds by keeping him on a short lead-- MUCH BETTER. And, we also work daily now on collar=good. I have seen a huge improvement in a short time! 20% of bites come from collar holds, so it is good to get your dog used to them, just in case! Get them happy with a collar hold, but avoid actually using it at all costs!

BTW, in my obsessive research of this topic today (I looked all over the Internet, not here), I found that 100% of the people discussing this had pups under a year. That means:
(a) People gave up after a year.
or
(b) Things got better after a year.

I know there are a few people on this thread with older dogs but it seems MUCH improved.


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## Cpc1972

For the first time last night Chloe started jumping up and biting my moms arms while walking. She turned around and came home. She said there was a lot of kids outside playing.


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## Eclipse

Anele said:


> BTW, in my obsessive research of this topic today (I looked all over the Internet, not here), I found that 100% of the people discussing this had pups under a year. That means:
> (a) People gave up after a year.
> or
> (b) Things got better after a year.
> 
> I know there are a few people on this thread with older dogs but it seems MUCH improved.


I'm sure it isn't as simple as them giving up in extreme cases. I agree that it's likely people just give up in most cases.

I can now walk Penny two miles twice a day with maybe one attempt to start jumping/growling. I can stop that before it escalates now and not have an issue for the rest of the walk.

Classes are a different matter entirely. I had to leave my agility class yesterday because she got really nasty several times within five minutes of starting warm ups. We weren't making any improvements and when she bit me I decided it would be better to stop before it got even worse.


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## lloyddobler

So today we had some wins and some very frustrating moments. I bought a clicker and started doing a bit of training with that. He seems to really like it and catches on quickly. I have to be very careful not to over-do it though... I learned the hard way that he will get frustrated and revert to biting. I do appreciate when it happens at home as I have an easy escape route and he calms down quickly once I leave the room. Right now I would give ANYTHING to have a back yard and be able to work with him there. It's so hard because to get him any exercise I have to leash him up and walk him that there are no quick escape routes when we are out in the city streets.

I'm feeling more hopeful with some of the reading I've done. Specifically "Fired Up, Frantic and Freaked Out" by Laura VanArendonk Baugh. I feel like I understand my pup's state of mind when he gets into the biting frenzy a lot more, which is very helpful. I'm only part way through the book, and have started the clicker training and teaching him to settle on the mat and will continue to work through the book. 

By the sounds of it, the author has been able to help dogs that have much more serious issues, so I will hold out hope that the suggestions in the book will help us too.

It seems like every day things change a bit and now Lloyd is displaying the most erratic behavior near home.... usually when we are on our way back inside my building from a walk, long or short. It happens in other places, but most commonly near my building. I can't pin point why that would be. Does he not like where we live and not feel safe here? Is he just sooooo excited to be back that he can't contain himself? Is he not ready to go back in yet and wants to walk more? What are you trying to tell me doggy?!?!? More often than not, there are not other people around. There is soft music playing and it is a fairly relaxing environment from my perspective.

Well, here's to learning! I felt like I spent every spare moment I've had googling this issue or reading one of the many books I've bought this weekend. I've learned a lot and have a stronger understand of the issue. Now, I need to be diligent and continue working with him to help him manage his responses in a more positive way. Note, I have no idea how I'm going to do that, but I'll figure it out with the help of the behaviorist I'm meeting on Saturday. 

Eclipse - What do you think sets your pup off when training? Is she feeling too much pressure/excitement/frustration or something else? I can imagine how disappointing it is to get there and have to leave because of this. Lloyd never fails to act out in the most awkward and embarrassing situations. We were in the elevator earlier with three people and he started biting and pulling in the leash and taking bites at my hands. The people in the elevator were laughing and thought it was cute. I am sure my stress level was clearly through the roof causing him to escalate more and more. I can handle it much better when it is just the two of us around, but when it is in a an area with no escape and an a captive audience I just want to melt. There just isn't anything worse. I feel your pain!


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## Rkaymay

I will say that since turning a year old, Zelda is a VERY different dog than she was as a puppy. Hers was more excitement than frustration biting, but she would do both. It was on walks, if I wouldn't let her eat the stick/say hello to the person walking by (still hard for her), or when training if she didn't understand what I was trying to get her to do. I didn't even try commands when she was like this - I either (a) dropped the leash, stood on it, and let her bite my legs even though it sucked, or (b) kept moving, regardless of the biting. I talked to her a lot in a calm, happy voice regardless of what she was doing. It sucked, and it hurt - but I got my sweet, cuddly dog out of it.

I know it's SO frustrating but it CAN be managed. We avoid a lot of stressful situations now - while walking, if someone is walking toward us, we step off the sidewalk and wait for them to pass. We take a long time to learn new commands. Like I said before, she does best with 20-30 minutes of fetch or a walk 3-4 times a week. I know it's totally counterintuitive with a Golden (and she's mixed with border collie, too) but when she's tired her off switch disappears.


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## lloyddobler

Rkaymay - I am so glad you found what works for you. I think Lloyd is somewhat similar in that he struggles more when he is tired, but it does show when is not tired too. So, I'm struggling to find the right balance for him. Like Anele said, it's like Goldilocks! It's tough to find just the riiiiight amount! 

I also am now more aware of what his body language is telling me and can tell he gets stressed when other dogs are walking towards us head on. He did well today and didn't bark at any of them, but it does stress him out and I can tell he stays stressed even long after we've passed the other dog. I have started walking in a curve to not walk towards the other dog head on and that seems to help. I also let him stop and sniff or whatever he needs to do to calm himself. 

If I spent as much time thinking about my job as I do this issue, I would be CEO by now. LOL!


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## Anele

Cpc1972, hopefully it was a one-time thing! 

Eclipse, I know you said you had a trainer work with you so that you could put a stop to the behavior/not let it escalate. What worked? 

RE: classes-- if you look back to what SwimDog wrote, she took a break from classes with her dog when this started happening, worked on clicking during the calm seconds to capture the calm, and then they were able to go back.I hope this works for you!

Today was good, but I only took him on one short walk. He didn't mouth anyone at all except for a split second right when we got home (we were gone a long time!) and he was excited. We left the moment he did it, then came back-- no mouthing. I think that is what is helping a lot-- he mouths even a little, we leave! No biting at all today.

I am starting to pretend that I feel more trusting of him, if that makes sense, until I DO trust him. (And no, I will never trust him with any child!) In other words, I am trying not to be so anxious! So, tonight, he jumped on the sofa which he has not done for a long time (hahaha, that's because I just gave advice here how to stop it!), and in the past that got him excited and nippy. Well, even around my 2 young children, NO nippiness at all. He was a little hyped, but he did NOT touch any of us with his mouth.We are also regaining the use of our backyard without worrying about him so much! My 10 y.o. spent time out there alone with him (well, I peeked out the window!)-- he was perfect. She did some training, and then she was calm. That helps a lot! In the past week, I think he jumped/mouthed my 13 y.o. once out there (she was able to quickly exit-- game over)-- but he didn't bite or go into a frenzy-- and it was a time where he was excited when another younger child came out. He did NOT jump/nip the younger child, so that was a good move. 

I also realized today that his jumping on us is just about a thing of the past indoors and generally outside (except when the over-arousal happens). 

So, we are not seeing perfection by any means, but we are definitely seeing progress-- as long as I limit walks. I will just continue to be strict with myself about the short walks. I guess if he is the kind of dog who does better with short walks, I should count myself as lucky?

In the meantime, our next step in nosework is the retrieve-- and I am going to stick to it. Tonight, we made some progress. (My DD has success, but I don't have any that I can count on.) With the help of the clicker in one session, he finally progressed to, toss the toy, put your mouth on the toy. Jackpot! If I can really get him to love to retrieve, that will open up a whole new world for mental and physical exercise, so it is a big priority. Then I finished off the session with "find it" (w/hot dog pieces) in the backyard. Again-- huge improvement in his concentration. I also see he is more confident/takes risks in sniffing larger areas out there. The find it exercise is such an easy thing and is highly rewarding for both my dog and me. 

Oh, and another good thing! We have 2 cats. One has been out with Kevin since day #1. (And if the cat runs, he will chase him, but we can calm him.) We have another cat that only recently started showing herself to him when he is behind a gate. Well, this morning, he was on his mat in the kitchen, NOT tethered, lying there. . .and our more nervous cat came out. He STAYED on his mat and wagged his tail. Treat, treat for that!!! I was so happy because had he chased-- that would have set our cat (and him) back a long way.

Anyway . . .I think if you do a search about "biting on walks" you will find that others have gone through this. Maybe it's not a common problem, but the more I read-- well, it isn't really uncommon, either. Check out this thread!

FEEL LIKE GIVING UP

AND, in the spirit that money solves problems:
(1) I am going to get more interactive food toys for him and make sure I vary what is in them a lot more. Sometimes I am lazy and stuff my Kongs without freezing them, but the freezing make all the difference. Helps him be calm, be busy, stick to them, it feels better for teething, etc.

(2) I am ordering the Freedom Harness for him. Maybe we will get the Halti eventually-- I know Susan Garrett believes in head collars-- but for now, he generally DOES walk well on loose leash on our harness that has the back clip (b/c the dumb front clip broke). But, since in moments of excitement, he lunges-- the back clip is giving that oppositional reflex incentive for him to lunge MORE. I can't have it be self-reinforcing!


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## Cpc1972

Sounds like everything is going well.

We got the easy walk harness today and there was no nipping. She also didnt flop on the ground. My mom says she walked right beside her.


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## Anele

I was typing out my book and we cross posted!

Rkaymay, such a hopeful post! To think of how far Z has come is just wonderful and inspirational! We also always step off to the side when someone is coming. People have told me "thank you" for that, so now I think I will always do it, even if (WHEN!) he has calmed down. Certainly, not everyone likes or trusts dogs, so they feel better when a dog is not in their space, and that is their right!

lloyddobler, I am so happy for you!!!! I remember when you posted about your issue on another thread/different board, and it seemed like you were stuck-- now you are full speed ahead! You have armed yourself with SO much knowledge about your own dog and dogs in general. That is very powerful on many levels!

I was just telling my daughter tonight about my last dog, which was many years ago. I was young, had just graduated college-- he was a fox terrier from a pet store (I didn't know about puppy mills). My trainer (recommended by my friend who was a vet student) said he was the dog from he## because he could not walk well on a loose leash as a puppy-- and BECAUSE of that, we could not go any further in training. (That is what the trainer said.) Another trainer had us doing body massage, which felt like a drop in the bucket. I read breed descriptions AFTER getting him (duh) and felt like my dog was a lost cause based on the trainers and inherent breed characteristics, and so I was stuck. We got the Halti so he wouldn't die choking, and I mentally gave up. I took care of him, rearranged my whole graduate school choice around him, etc. but . . .

If I could turn back time . . .things would be so different. I would have found ways for him to like food, to enjoy playing, to train, to do training DESPITE his poor leash skills, etc. and maybe eventually the walking would have been better, or maybe not, but I would have enjoyed him a lot more. 

So, while knowledge can give us anxiety sometimes, it also arms us with hope! The more we learn, the more I believe we can enjoy our dogs. AND when we have accomplishments, we can be extremely proud and think, yes! We did it! 

RE: taking him outside-- is there any area where you could put a long line on him and do training? BUT, I would not hurry this. You can start doing a LOT inside and only progress when you need to up the distractions. It is fine to do training and exercise inside! 

Do you think not going to the dog parks is helping?

Ohh-- and also-- when he is not cooperating inside, there is NO PROBLEM with putting him in a crate/ex-pen or gated area while you take a break. He has to learn to be calm, so it's better for him to be in an area where he can practice good behavior vs. not!

Hahahaha! Your comment about being the CEO cracked me up! So true!

ETA: One thing you can do with the clicker is instead NOT try to train him for anything specific, but catch him being good, doing something you like, etc. I might put away the clicker for a week and do this . . .he is sitting nicely? Treat. Looks at the mat? Treat. Stands on the mat? Treat. Lies down on the mat? JACKPOT! Doesn't jump? Treat. Doesn't bark looking out the window? Treat. Greets you without his mouth? Treat. See where I am going here? You look for things you like, and the treat (I just use my dog's daily kibble) shows him that if he does x, it will be reinforced. You don't say anything, you don't try to get him to do these things, but you notice and show him that you are paying attention!


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## Rkaymay

And just some hope for you Anele - I completely trust Zelda around my younger siblings, aged 15, 11, 9, 9, and 3 (there are some older ones too, but I know your kids are younger). I would leave her alone in the same room as them. My 9 y/o sister isn't a big fan because she's blind, but my 3 y/o brother ADORES her. He follows her around, hugs her, feeds her treats - he's so excited when we go home. Z loves him too, though she DID accidentally give him a black eye with her head because she wanted love so bad.  My 9 y/o brother and his friends adore her too, though they won't let her come outside when they're on the trampoline because she tries to bite their toes. They do have lots of experience with dogs (my mom always has 2-3 in the house), but Z used to be extremely arousable and now I would trust her completely with them. There is hope.


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## lloyddobler

I was just laughing as I was walking Lloyd this morning on our way to the office. To prepare for the epic 3 block journey I packed a frozen kong (peanut butter, his favorite) a squeaky toy, bully sticks, a food puzzel toy with his kibble, my oh - so fashionable treat sack that looks just like a fanny pack, our clicker, his mat and poop bags. I swear this pup is more work than a human baby!

I look like a tacky tourist walking into my office all for the sake of my dog. I'm sure people think I'm nuts!

I'm am simply amazed how fast these pups learn. Just when you think you'll never get through to them, it seems to click. We worked on getting him to go to his mat yesterday and while he did go to the mat, he was more interested in dragging it around the house in his mouth. This morning when I wasn't looking, he went and laid down on it all by himself two different times. Now he is laying behind me in my office on his mat too! It's great when you can see your work pay off.

Now, to get him to stop biting me!!


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## lloyddobler

I'm starting puppy elementary school this weekend and the instructor sent us this article to read. It's long, but an interesting read on how to interpret certain behaviors and how to protect our dogs.

He Just Wants To Say "Hi!" | Suzanne Clothier


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## lloyddobler

Another GRF recommended the Protocol for Relaxation by Karen Overall. You can find details here (http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/OverallRelaxationProtocol.pdf). She said it helped her dog a great deal. However, she said it took her almost 10 weeks to get through it successfully. I'm glad she shared that with me as I know I would get frustrated if we didn't breeze right through it! Hope it helps some of you as well!

Also, Anele found all the protocols here: 

http://www.belleplainevet.com/links/client-handouts/behavioral-protocols/


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## Anele

Rkaymay, that DOES make me feel a lot better! How old was Zelda when you felt you could relax a little? 


lloyddobler, hahaha! Well, with a baby-- you will never be afraid that you will be chomped on! (Though my 3 year old has bitten as a toddler!) How did he do on your walk? Such a smart guy to understand the mat so quickly! 

I've read that article by Suzanne Clothier. She has an interesting perspective on things. Did you read what she wrote about head collars? Nice that your trainer sent you an article! Sounds like a good trainer! And--for the protocol-- yes, I need to stick to it! I've done most of the first task but have to continue on! Supposedly if you stick to it, it takes 2 weeks, so I can see how any slacking takes 10! 

So, update from us-- this is how I keep track!

A few mouthing/nipping incidents.
(1) With my 3 y.o. I was right there, my daughter was doing nothing more than standing (and was being calm, had not been hyper, loud, or even moving much!), and he was about to put his mouth on her arm. (We were outside.) I did not like that! He immediately went to a matter-of-fact time out, then we resumed time together. Most of the time outside was spent with my 3 y.o. filling the baby pool for him-- they both liked that and no more mouthing.
(2) My husband was playing with him and LET him mouth him. Did not bite, was soft, but thankfully my husband asked me if that was OK or not. (I said no--please leave the room next time.)That was it! We took a leisurely walk and he did very well. Loose leash most of the time, but a lot of "find its" because it is garbage day, and I would MUCH rather him focus on searching for kibble vs. wanting to explore garbage! He seems to be understanding the concept of "go sniff" well because he will start to sniff immediately, but maybe coincidence.

We did another clicker session for training for the retrieve. For this, I keep sessions VERY short so that we can end on a high note. He did well! Initially he batted at the item with his paw, but then something clicked (haha) and he seemed to remember, "Oh, yeah, mouth on this is good!" and then he progressed to CARRYING it. I was thrilled! Took just a few moments, and he got a jackpot for that, and then another game of finding smelly treats in the lawn. Seems like it is a very good way to wind him down for the evening.

On another note-- I bought a $6 bone for him today in hopes that it would keep him busy while I attempt to "KonMari" my house-- but OMG did he go through it fast! I cannot afford $180 on bones monthly! Geesh! (I did get to work on my kitchen, though!)

Hope everyone out there, including you lurkers  is doing well!http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Anele

One more thing-- found this on another thread.

Calm = Release (from My Smart Puppy)

I would say, though, that for dogs that have any issue being restrained, to go very slowly and pair the release with food.


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## Rkaymay

She was probably a year old. She didn't grow up around the littles - we live about 2 hours away, so she saw them maybe once a month. As a puppy, she was never ultra mouthy with them, but she was also very distracted by my moms other dogs (2 GSDs). My mom no longer has those dogs, so there's not as much to distract her. She still does wonderfully though. My biggest concern is if she'll pee in the house (she gets confused sometimes) - which is really minor and tells you just how much I trust her.

My 3 y/o brother loves her most, and I think it's partially because my brothers both have puppies that are still pretty mouthy (around 6-8 months old), and he loves that Z never nips him. She really likes his stuffed animals, though, and he hates that.


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## quilter

Anele said:


> One more thing-- found this on another thread.
> 
> Calm = Release (from My Smart Puppy)
> 
> I would say, though, that for dogs that have any issue being restrained, to go very slowly and pair the release with food.


Good advice. I was probably the one that posted that. Casper was 9 weeks old when I started working on it. It's his off switch now. I put it on the cue "Sit with me." In just about any situation, if I sit down and say "Sit with me", he'll sit down, tucking himself between my legs. He always faces away from me, as it's taught. He'll stay there as along as I pet him. One of my training books says that you should train new behaviors at home in a relaxed environment. That way, when you take it on the road, the relaxed attitude comes with the behavior. That's true with "Sit with me" for us.


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## rabernet

Hi guys, I stumbled across this page today and thought that it might be helpful to you in calming your reactive pups. 

The Magic Of Duration Work | The Good Dog Life Blog


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## lloyddobler

Thanks for all helpful ideas and things to work on! Today has been just an awful day with my pup from the moment we went outside to go potty. I live in an apartment and we encountered a small dog when we were getting on the elevator. That dog was getting off the elevator and broke free from his leash and was running and around going in and out of the elevator. Once the owner got control of her dog, we went downstairs, quickly went potty. As went walked back towards the building, he started biting and jumping.

Next, after I got ready, we left for work and saw two of his favorite golden retriever friends right outside out building. They greeted each other and sniffed and we were on our way. About half way to work he started biting and jumping, primarily focusing on my butt and crotch. Nice! 

Then at lunchtime, we go out for a quick walk and potty break. We came across two large dogs in the elevator lobby who quickly showed teeth, barked, growled and lunged at him. We got outside and he did fine walking for about 20 minutes. We then were across the street from my building and he started jumping, humping and biting. There was a bench, so I sat down and he immediately stopped. He eventually laid down without any prompting from me. We stayed there for about a minute. He appeared calm as his eyes were soft, he wasn't panting, ears were relaxed, etc. As soon as I stood up and we started walking, he started the humping and biting, which he continued to do as we walked past security. Lovely sight for them to witness.

It seems like he's gotten worse and I don't know what else to attribute it to other than I am focused on this WAY too much. It's all I have been thinking about lately. He's doing well with the mat work and other things we are introducing. I just want this to be gone so we can go about our lives. 

I can't have him act this way in my office, so I think I am going to have to leave him home in his crate and get him out for lunch break walks. It breaks my heart, but I just don't know what else to do.

I have the protocol for relaxation and some of these other things that I need to get going on. Hopefully, they will help.


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## Cpc1972

Maybe your pup will do better staying at home until he matures a little big.


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## lloyddobler

I really am beginning to think that his biting is a delayed response to environmental stressors. Is that even possible?!?!? I makes sense as many times the jumping and biting happens in the absence of anything in the environment... it's happened when there isn't another soul around and no loud noises or movement, etc. However, as I noticed today, his behavior happened well AFTER he saw/interacted with other dogs (some friendly and familiar and some not friendly or familiar) in a different area. I suppose his body and brain are still aroused and he eventually gets to a point where he can't contain it. Just when I thought I had him figured out, I don't. DOH! I am counting the minutes until Saturday morning when I finally meet with a behaviorist. I think I am completely overwhelmed with where I should be focusing. I've come across so much great information in books and on here, but need an action plan. My behaviorist will provide me with a written plan and 6 months of follow up (via phone, email or video). So, hopefully we will get off to a fresh, new start soon.


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## Anele

Rkaymay-- wow-- she was not super mouthy with them? I can't say my dog has been, either, but that is only because I have prevented it so much. He just has not had that much access to my young children (which has been super hard). I am working on a plan so that he has more exposure but won't mouth. So cute about your 3 y.o. brother!

Quilter-- "sit with me"-- I love it! 

Rabernet, thank you! I am going to include the link in my calmness info post once I get around to it.

lloyddobler,yes, from everything you've described, I've thought the same thing-- he is redirecting his energy from the environment to you. I bet you a million bucks that those dogs' owners with the baring teeth are not losing one minute of sleep over it . . .it's just us, trying to figure these dogs out! For now-- do what you need to do to survive-- but don't go blaming yourself! I can't wait for your appointment, either! It WILL make you feel better because you will get a lot of support and like you said,a PLAN!!!


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## Cpc1972

Anelle do let your younger children pet Kevin when you have him on a leash and can't jump. My niece will pet Chloe as long as she is leashed. My nephew is allowed to play with her as long we are supervising.


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## Anele

Cpc1972 said:


> Anelle do let your younger children pet Kevin when you have him on a leash and can't jump. My niece will pet Chloe as long as she is leashed. My nephew is allowed to play with her as long we are supervising.


Yes-- though he does not do much jumping lately-- but he WILL put his mouth on my daughter's arm if it's nearby sometimes. My dog doesn't love to be pet, though we have come a long way and he definitely enjoys it more!


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## Cpc1972

Anele said:


> Yes-- though he does not do much jumping lately-- but he WILL put his mouth on my daughter's arm if it's nearby sometimes. My dog doesn't love to be pet, though we have come a long way and he definitely enjoys it more!



Thats good. My niece loves dogs but cant stand dog slobber. We dont have to worry about her getting real chummy with chloe yet. But she will pet her and let chloe chase her on the power wheels. My six yearold nephew started crying today because he wanted to play with her. My mom told him the gate had to stay up until she could watch him. Then my dad got home so he went out back and played with her.


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## Chritty

lloyddobler said:


> I really am beginning to think that his biting is a delayed response to environmental stressors. Is that even possible?!?!? I makes sense as many times the jumping and biting happens in the absence of anything in the environment... it's happened when there isn't another soul around and no loud noises or movement, etc. However, as I noticed today, his behavior happened well AFTER he saw/interacted with other dogs (some friendly and familiar and some not friendly or familiar) in a different area. I suppose his body and brain are still aroused and he eventually gets to a point where he can't contain it. Just when I thought I had him figured out, I don't. DOH!



With this type of behaviour, when I talk to a trainer friend of mine told me, "You just haven't stuck to any rules or boundaries so she doesn't take you seriously. To her you represent excitement."


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## lloyddobler

Chritty said:


> With this type of behaviour, when I talk to a trainer friend of mine told me, "You just haven't stuck to any rules or boundaries so she doesn't take you seriously. To her you represent excitement."


That could be the case although it isn't for lack of trying. I've recently starting doing a lot more work in this area. I have him sit before he gets any attention (food, pets, treats, leash on for a walk, before we walk through a door, you name it). I'm teaching him rules with tug and to settle on his mat. Does anyone have any other suggestions on how I can provide boundaries that would help in this situation? I've stopped letting him sleep on my bed and he voluntarily goes into his crate at night, which is great to see.

I'm sorry I sound like a broken record as I have done a whole lot of venting on this post.... but, I don't feel like I want to share this stuff with my friends or family as they would likely not understand. So, thank you for being my source of comfort! 

We just did some great mat and settle work about 30 minutes ago... he's really seeming to get it. I leashed him up to go outside. He got a little ramped up near the elevator and I could tell he was going to jump, so we turned around and walked back inside immediately. I let him settle and be calm for about 5 minutes and we went back out. We walked around the block twice, which is probably about 1/2 mile at the most. We saw a couple of other dogs, which he barked at. This is new behavior in the last 4-5 days... it seemed to come at the same time as increased marking. Not sure if they are related. He is definitely nervous when dogs approach, which he didn't seem to be in the past. 

Overall, the walk went fine, we did some nose work, obedience, etc. We made it inside without an issue... then it took like 3 minutes for the elevator to arrive. He got antsy and started jumping and biting at me and ripped my sweater. The stupid sweater is in the garbage and I'm in tears. Seriously, I don't remember a time when I've been this frustrated. I've been through a divorce/family drama and other horrible things in life, but for some reason this tops all of that. Probably because I just don't know what it is going to take to help and don't have enough control.

This behavior and the issues with him that I'm seeing going in and out of my building are new as of this week. We've had problems here and there in the past, but this week it has been nearly every time I take him out or in! I've stopped exercising him as much as I was thinking part of this behavior was due to him being over-exercised and wonder if I need to up it again, although I certainly don't want to open myself up for even more biting. Unfortunately, it is looking like I'm going to need a muzzle as i cannot take this any longer. This is certainly not what I envisioned how having him would go. Part of me is afraid that muzzling him will only make him more aggressive. I think mouthing me is what he uses to calm himself. If he can't do that, then what?

I was supposed to travel for work this week and that trip got cancelled. I really wish I would have gotten a break this week!


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## Anele

OH no about the trip!!! Can you just send him to the pet sitter for at least a night? You really deserve a break!

I think it's interesting about the marking and reactions to other dogs. Very interesting-- hmm. Good info for your appointment.

Sounds like your training successes are great. So much progress in a short time. What my trainer reminds me is that there is a transition from training to real life. That's the trick, isn't it! So, I don't have any answers, except to say that I think the training IS key but it will likely take a lot of repetitions and, in an ideal world, have everything "just so" for difficulties to be increased in as small increments as possible in the areas of distance, duration, and distractions! But we don't control the world, so I never know how to make this work . . .I mean, if one of the main places he bites you is in the elevator, it's not like you can avoid the elevator!

How food motivated is he when he is bitey? Would he stop for a really great treat? If so, can you reserve it for the area by your building, so that you give him food BEFORE he starts but then continue using it on the elevator ride? Another suggestion made to me is to carry a tug. I am not sure if it is supposed to be hidden or not until needed.

I was set to order a muzzle as well, but I AM worried it might make him more aggressive b/c he would be frustrated. How about the head collar? In both cases it takes time to get them used to them . . .

I am really tired of this as well. So tired. On the plus side, I have read many, many, MANY stories like ours and there has been a light at the end.


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## lloyddobler

Thanks Anele! It's so great to be reminded that there is light at the end. We are facing the teenage phase where everything is amplified. Thank you for the reminder! I too have been researching, researching various forums and came to the same conclusion as you. It seems most posters write when their dogs are between 6-12 months old. Lloyd is not yet quite 8 1/2 months, so hopefully with getting a little older and some training, we will get through this. If it doesn't change, I will be forced to buy a house with a yard so I never have to walk him again. I'm not even kidding! I would have to as I cannot do this for much longer.

He is food motivated, but I've learned that even the highest reward treat doesn't seem to snap him out of his frenzy. Even if I can tell he's getting over-excited and I do get him to sit and take a treat, it doesn't seem to stop him from going over the top, but delays it from happening until I turn my back and am putting the key in the door. He's sneaky. And nothing ever works once he has gone over the top.

You've come so far and your pup is going great. You have provided a lot of structure for him, which is probably what I'm lacking. The only time he's usually left alone is what I am in meetings during the day. Tomorrow, he is staying home! I have back to back meetings all day long, so my neighbor will come let him out for me. I think I'll leave him home on Friday as well and head home during the lunch hour to let him out and do some training. I feel bad leaving him for 8 or more hours a day even if it is broken up with a lunch walk, but it may be what he needs... who knows? Maybe he needs more quiet/alone time to relax and rest. He sleeps most of the day in my office, but maybe he's not able to really relax there.


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## Chritty

lloyddobler said:


> it isn't for lack of trying.



I have no doubt of that!


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## Loukia

Anele said:


> How about the head collar?


Hi All, I've been pretty absent from the forum in the last week. My own schedule has left me little time for checking in. Like many of you, this is my opportunity to ask questions and share my frustrations and concerns, because the wonderful people in my personal life don't really want to hear another dog story.

I did want to mention one thing about my experience with head collars. It's just food for thought, since if I've learned anything in the last 8 months, it's that what works well for one dog may not work well for another, and vice versa. So I'll share with you my experience, but please understand that I do know every other dog out there might react differently.

When Comet started with the original training facility (the facility I left after 3 classes, 6 months of time and not enough progress), I was really pushed into using a Gentle Leader head harness. At first I wasn't too keen on the idea. It don't like how they look and I didn't really want to walk around town with it on my dog. But, as classes passed and everyone else raved about them, I finally caved and started using one too. At first I was amazed. It worked wonders in minutes. In fact, I'm sure if you go back to many of my old postings, I'm pretty sure I wrote about how wonderful it was and how happy I was using it. I thought it was the answer to my prayers.

Unfortunately, as time went on, I started to realize that Comet would ONLY follow the commands if the head harness was on. He would only loose leash walk if the head hardness was on, only go into a down if the head harness was on, etc. I obviously didn't want to keep it on him in the house, so this created a big problem for me. 

In addition, as I became more in-tune with Comet's personality, I realized that when the head harness went on, his tail no longer wagged, and he really seemed a bit broken. He didn't resist me putting it on him, but once it was on he just seemed down. He went along with what ever I had him do, but he didn't really "want" to... he did because he had to. I also wasn't a fan towards the end because as the weather started to change, and as it got warmer, I noticed the Comet really couldn't drink water as easily on walks, pant fully, open his mouth wide to take a good breath, etc. I've read some posts where people say that head halters constrict breathing because of added pressure on the nose. I initially assumed it was because people weren't fitting them correctly. The harness was fitted to him by the trainer, I also watched the video to ensure it was fitted correctly and still concerned, I had the pet store fit him. We were all in agreement that it was on him as directed. In my own experience with Comet, he got to a point, perhaps due to heat, where I felt it was constricting his ability to open his mouth and fully breath. The trainer at the time assured me otherwise. 

When I switched to his current trainer, the head collar came off. After going through a series of assessments with Comet, his current trainer started using different methods that did include corrections. Interestingly, I noticed a HUGE difference in Comet's happiness during training. His tail wagged, he had a grin on his face, a bounce in his step and the corrections during training didn't get him down in the least. In fact, he went from heeling with his head held low to actually prancing like a show pony. He no longer had that sad, defeated look that he usually got during training sessions. It was almost as if the corrections helped him better understand what he should be doing, but they didn't break his spirit in the least. Comet is definitely still a work in progress, and we still have our challenges, but for him, removing the Gentle Leader and using a different method of training made all of the difference in the world. 

I didn't read any articles by Susan Clothier until this discussion started and Anele shared an article with us. A few posts back she asked if Lloyd'sMom had read Susan's take on head halters. I was interested to see what she had to say about them because I've found her other articles interesting, but in the back of my mind, I assumed she _would_ be a fan of them. When I got to paragraph #9, I couldn't believe it, she had described my exact experience with Comet. Again, I'm reminded that there isn't a one-fits-all approach to training. What works well for some doesn't work well for others. We have to work with a trainer that is willing to assess our individual dog and not fall prey to stereotyping our dog as a certain personality just because he is a Golden, a certain size, a certain age, etc.

The Problem With Head Halters | Suzanne Clothier


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## lloyddobler

For those interested in the protocol for relaxation, there is a site that has the protocol recorded on an MP3 so you can play from your computer or phone. I've found it really helpful! Here's the link:

Relaxation Protocol MP3 Files | Champion of My Heart ... a real-time memoir

Good luck!


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## Chritty

On top of what Loukia has said I want to add our experience with correction training. I have shared 2 of these videos with a few people already but I also have some follow up videos to share.

This is day 2 of using correction training. The jumping and biting (Over Arousal behavior) that we have been struggling with and have found no solution in redirection or any other positive based training.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM6hqqBiB6c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_T0-LwCwUA
The techniques the trainer gave us which I display there did not work. Rather than giving us a "wait and see" mantra he was able to give us more direction and the use of further tools to help us solve this behavioral issue.

This was Millie this morning, 16 days after our first training session with our new trainer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHVwQ5t-E_0
I couldn't do this without correction training. She has a leather slip collar on but I'm sure you can see that the leash is mostly loose, her tail is high and happy, and she keeps focusing on me looking for leadership. The best part is that she's still a happy, stable puppy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODkJ78KVAFs

And all of it without treats!!

None of the scary predictions of those who champion aversive-free training have come true. She is not cowering in fear away from us. She is not biting us. What she is doing is being a good dog! And she has a clear definition of right and wrong from us.

Today Wifey was able to have an entire day without being attacked by Millie, the first in months. We're really happy that we've contacted a balanced trainer.

To me, calm is part of the equation but you also need clear communication of wrong and right. It's got to be black and white for them.


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## lloyddobler

Hi Chritty - Amazing progress! Can you share which corrections you used that seemed to work for your pup? I see the stand there and take it approach didn't work in the first two videos? What corrections did you employ between day 2 and 16 that you attribute your success to? 

I've found that my pup will back off when he is jumping if I put my knee up. It does help snap him back to reality. However, this morning he was amped up big time from the moment we walked out the door so I knew it was going to be a bigger challenge than normal. He was zooming all over the place on the leash, wasn't interested in treats. He started jumping and I put up my knee. He backed off, but started growling and biting at the leash and trying to nip at my coat. He jumped again and made contact with me knee which stopped it altogether. I'm not sure if my knee approach will continue to work or not. 

I'm also working on mat work and teaching him how to be calm and go from an excited state to a calm state, but clearly that will take a lot of time and patience! We're definitely a work in progress.

I'd love to know exactly what your trainer recommended that worked for you. Thanks for taking the time to help us!


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## Chritty

I'm hesitant to tell exactly what the trainer has taught us because I really think it's something that needs to be taught under guidance of a good balanced trainer. 

Having said that though week 2 of training saw the introduction of a slip collar. All the work we've done with her has been in our home/backyard as the trainer did not want us to lose control of Millie out in the big wide world to let her get a win over us. 

The trainer has been teaching us about leadership and it's importance in a dog's world. It's simple stuff and gives Millie her place in the world. 


Calming is so important but so is being in control. Defining boundaries clearly. Being a calm and assertive leader will breed calm. We're only two and a half weeks into it so this is very much a work in progress.


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## Chritty

I think that this is a good video to watch if you are considering corrections http://youtu.be/xe0-oqqoXvw


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## Anele

I only have a quick second-- just stopping by to report what just happened.

We were outside in the yard when, like a light switch, BOOM my dog started jumping around. He had shown a LOT of self-control all morning. Perfect on our walk with my 2 kids/stroller, even with many dogs barking inside homes. No issues at all today-- most days there are not problems. So, sometimes I think he only has so much control and then he needs a release, gets tired.

Anyway-- he was right by my 3 y.o. and thank goodness he did not bite her or jump on her. So, I immediately stood up and he jumped/bit me (much better than on my 3 y.o.). I took his collar gently and he, of course, tried to bite me (he is great with collar holds at all other times-- we work on this a lot and he has improved SO much, including transports).

I said, "shh, shh," petting him slowly and shoved whatever toy I found lying on the ground. He chewed on it but I knew he still wanted to bite me instead, so I just kept the toy in his mouth. All while saying, "shhh, shhh" to calm him down. Then I found a better thing for him to chew on (still holding his collar at this point) and he chewed on that, calmed down. I could see the agitation leave him-- the peak frenzy-- but that he was still wound up. Then he sat nicely to be pet, though I could tell still a little hyper. Then I calmly had him go to his crate for a nap.

When my kids as toddlers (or even at older ages!) have had tantrums, really the worst thing is for _me_ to get upset. They are already feeling out-of-control and overwhelmed, so they need someone steady to reassure them and help them calm down. They don't need anyone to be stern or to try to get them to regain self-control on their own (because at that moment, they just can't-- it's not a matter of "won't), but to re-direct the energy in a safe and appropriate way. 

Not sure if it will work every time, but I feel like it was a success today. Most of the time we are able to prevent, but it's good to know what to do once it starts. 

It's funny, because the reason I didn't see him just as he started to jump was because I was checking the time-- I wanted to see if it was time for his nap, and apparently it was!


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## quilter

Anele said:


> I took his collar gently and he, of course, tried to bite me (he is great with collar holds at all other times-- we work on this a lot and he has improved SO much, including transports).


A really good thing I learned in one of my dog classes was Gotcha. You say Gotcha, hold a treat to one side of the dog's head and grab the collar with the other hand. If you always do it in one direction, then the dog will learn to move head (and his mouth) in one direction while you grab the collar from the other direction.

We like to think these goldens, being such people-loving dogs, don't might us touching them anywhere, anytime. And, you know, generally they don't mind. But my dog, Casper, while he loves people and loves being petted, does not like people reaching for his head. Most dogs don't. So when he has a gleam in his eye, grabbing for his collar without warning is going to get him mouthy. A simple "gotcha" clues him in that I'm going for his collar and you can almost see his mind say "Oh, ok." It makes a huge difference!


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## Anele

quilter said:


> We like to think these goldens, being such people-loving dogs, don't might us touching them anywhere, anytime.


Ha, ha! Not my dog! My dog was not a fan of being pet AT ALL as young puppy. As soon as we would start, we would get the stress signals. We have come such a long, long way . . . it is amazing how much more affectionate he is now at 6 months vs. when we brought him home. When we start petting him now he will sit down. He really enjoys being touched so much more, but I would never assume he wants it . . .we always monitor.

In this case, he was mouthy with me touching his collar because he was already biting (which is why I got his collar) . . .so, the collar hold didn't trigger it. In fact, it kept him from biting me more. 

We learned "gotcha" as well but we did NOT learn to treat on the other side. That is a fantastic idea-- thank you! I will definitely start this! I really think it will help.

I don't use the verbal cue, though, because I would prefer the collar touch itself to be the cue. I tend to like more physical cues over verbal-- I feel like they become sort of default that way, and in my family, some people (my husband, cough cough) are very resistant to use the same terminology, so consistency is an issue . . .so we are working on collar touch/grab from ANY direction, any angle, any time, anywhere = something good . . .but we have a long way to go, even though we have made great progress. I just wish I'd had treats on me during today's impromptu collar grab-- that would have been ideal. I usually have them on me, too. Ugh!


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## lloyddobler

Thanks for keeping the helpful tips coming. I had a GREAT 5 -6 days in a row with my dog with only a few issues of him jumping/biting. However, between yesterday and today he's gotten out of control nearly every time I put him on his leash no matter how short or long the walk. I haven't changed anything in how I interact with him or the environment, so I don't know why I'm seeing the change. We just went outside for a quick potty and he lost it on the way back in. He now doesn't jump as much as he used to, but bites at my shirt or pant legs. The sweater I am wearing today is now about 5 sizes bigger than it was when I put on this morning as he's pulled at it so much and wouldn't let go.

I think I am going to have to do the opposite of everything I want to do and leave him home during the day while I'm at work. My behaviorist advised that I focus on keeping him out of situations where he could be over-stimulated. I laughed at that as I live in the heart of the city and even a walk around the block has us coming in contact with a million different things. She suggested I drive him out to an area that is more quiet for walks. I thought I didn't need that since the previous few days had gone.

Anele - I too grab my pup's harness when he is like this and he ends up going for my hands then.... I need to ensure I have a chew toy with me and see if that will satisfy him next next time. Treats certainly have not helped. He has no issue with me grabbing his harness or collar any other time.

I may have to figure out a way to tether him when we are walking when this happens. For those of you who tether, how do you manage to tie them to a fence, pole or tree when they are jumping and biting at you? I'm imagining what I would look like doing this.... it isn't pretty!

There just are not enough ways to say how much I hate this issue.


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## Chritty

@Lloyddobbler

Has your behaviourist given you a way to stop the behaviour?


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## lloyddobler

She advised that I avoid situations that would over-stimulate him and work on counter conditioning slowly. She also advised I work through the relaxation protocol, which we are doing to teach him how to be calm(er) on command and in various situations.

She brought a tube of velveta cheese and suggested I use a high value reward such as that when walking so he pays attention to me and tunes out the environment. 

I don't feel I'm armed with something that will change things for the better today that allows me to live a normal life with my dog. I live about 3-4 blocks away from work and technically shouldn't even walk him to work with me if I follow her advice. So, I'm frustrated and still don't feel like I still don't have a plan that is workable for me. 

I live in the city in an apartment, so he is going to interact with others each and every time we leave my apartment. So, there is no way for me to completely avoid over-stimulating him to extinguish the behavior.


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## Chritty

A balanced trainer was the first to offer us a solution to stop the behaviour straight away. No counter conditioning, no treats. I wouldn't be happy with the behaviourist's solution at all personally. We bought our dog to fit into our lives no the the other way around. 

Avoiding situations doesn't stop unwanted behaviour. It delays it. 

Wifey had gone 3 days now without Millie even looking like attacking her.


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## Chritty

Millie actually understands now that that particular behaviour is wrong and not to do it. She chooses not to offer that behaviour because she has a clearly defined boundary


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## lloyddobler

I'm not thrilled either. I've done a ton of reading on this topic and the behaviorist did not suggest anything I hadn't already read about. It was a lot of money and I'm spending tonight looking on the internet for balanced trainers as I believe we need to take a different approach than relying on food rewards to drive the behavior. Lloyd has become less and less interested in food when I'm outside and is more interested in the smells on the ground. It's harder and harder for me to hold his attention.


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## Loukia

Chritty said:


> A balanced trainer was the first to offer us a solution to stop the behaviour straight away... Avoiding situations doesn't stop unwanted behaviour. It delays it.


Congratulations Chris! It sounds like you're making great progress.

As I've mentioned in previous posts, I had to bail out on the positive only training. I gave it a good try, with six months worth of classes (3 in all - puppy, basic and intermediate), private lessons and drop off lessons. I invested a tremendous amount of time and money. And while I'm sure it helped Comet and me bond, it didn't help Comet understand his role in our relationship. We are a team, but he needs to look to me for guidance and he needs to follow my lead. This wasn't something that was solidified enough for Comet to understand previously. I also couldn't stand by with the "you just have to wait" and "he'll outgrow it, just keep at it" responses - they were enough to make me feel hopeless. 

Different methods work for different dogs. The key is finding the method that helps your dog understand what you want, helps them stay motivated to comply and helps them understand that they need to look to you for leadership. 

To Chris's point, avoidance or management, doesn't stop unwanted behavior. Training, establishing rules and boundaries, etc. stops unwanted behavior.

Please know, I haven't moved to aggressive, yank and jerk, negative training... in fact, my experience has been just the opposite. Comet is happy, his tail wags, he's attentive and he's bouncy and having fun. And like Chris mentions in a previous post, I don't know that I could really explain exactly what we've done or that I could have properly learned how to train Comet without the help of an excellent and experienced trainer. The video Chris posted from Michael Ellis is the basic philosophy of the training I'm using now with Comet. It's been very easy and effective but I don't know that I could have executed it properly by simply buying a Leerburg DVD. Working with a trainer has made all the difference. I noticed an immediate difference in Comet's behavior after one private lesson. Comet is still a puppy (11 months), he's still a work in progress, he still has his challenges and areas for improvement, but after 9 weeks of this training I feel like we've turned a corner and I'm finally seeing the dog I was hoping I would have from day 1.

I share this, not to frustrate those of you who are going through the challenges, but instead to give you hope that your dog can turn a corner. Go with your gut... if your current methods aren't working, switch things up... if your trainer isn't helping you progress, try someone new. I'm not advocating the methods I'm using, after seeing what I've gone through with Comet, I'm a firm believer that the training method has to fit the dog's personality. Training Comet with the current method helped a light bulb go off for Comet and it provided me with the tools for what to do if he chose not to listen.


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## Loukia

lloyddobler said:


> I'm not thrilled either. I've done a ton of reading on this topic and the behaviorist did not suggest anything I hadn't already read about. It was a lot of money and I'm spending tonight looking on the internet for balanced trainers as I believe we need to take a different approach than relying on food rewards to drive the behavior. Lloyd has become less and less interested in food when I'm outside and is more interested in the smells on the ground. It's harder and harder for me to hold his attention.


I think you're taking a great approach. You really have nothing to lose. I saw a change in 1 lesson. It wasn't a HUGE change, but I did see a change in a 1 hour private lesson and it was enough to make me happy and hopeful. I left that session convinced I had found the right person to help me with Comet, and 9 weeks later I'm still thrilled with the progress I continue to see.


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## lloyddobler

Thanks Loukia - I found a behaviorist/trainer tonight that employs a balanced approach. She hosts a local talk radio show about dogs and was recommended to me by my vet. She got back to me immediately and discussed that each dog is unique and would not use methods that would be seen as punishment, just like you said. I'm going to end up spending a ton more money, I can see it already, but I know I cannot have a dog that I hate taking outside and am fearful of and resent. 

Thanks for reminding us there is hope and to continue to search for someone who can help.


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## Loukia

lloyddobler said:


> Thanks Loukia - I found a behaviorist/trainer tonight that employs a balanced approach. She hosts a local talk radio show about dogs and was recommended to me by my vet. She got back to me immediately and discussed that each dog is unique and would not use methods that would be seen as punishment, just like you said. I'm going to end up spending a ton more money, I can see it already, but I know I cannot have a dog that I hate taking outside and am fearful of and resent.
> 
> Thanks for reminding us there is hope and to continue to search for someone who can help.


This is great! (But not the spending money part!) I'm so glad she got back to you so quickly. Just having that taken care of, you must feel a sense of relief. Please keep us posted and let us know how things go. We're cheering you on!

The good news is that I saw a dramatic improvement much faster with the balanced approach. I'm 9 weeks in and have seen enough improvement that I could probably stop with the lessons if I wanted to maintain basic obedience. I'm moving forward because I'm seeing such huge improvements and now Comet is starting to obey in a really fun way and I don't want to lose momentum.


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## Anele

One thing I've been thinking a lot about is being honest with myself! 

(1) How much time have I honestly been putting into training (not in place of management) on a daily basis-- not just THINKING about it, but actually doing it?
(2) How consistent have I honestly been in my response to my dog's behavior?
(3) Have I honestly been using the resources I've been given to the fullest extent?

In all cases, my answer has been-- I have not been honest with myself! 

I am a subscriber to Puppy Peaks, and Susan Garrett has a few e-books she offers. One of them lists "life skills." I think there are at least 100. Looking over them, I realize what a long way I have to go with my pup. And-- those are only the tip of the iceberg. In addition to those skills are tricks, social opportunities, impulse control, agility fundamentals, etc. While it's overwhelming, it's also a call to be proactive-- to say, there is so much for my dog to learn, so this is not a lost cause-- at all! IF, or rather WHEN we can get through those life skills, I think that this problem will be resolved.

My trainer gave me the calming protocol over a month ago. When I first saw it, I thought, sure my dog can lie calmly on a mat! But, there is SO MUCH more to it than that-- like Susan Garrett says, you have to apply the Green Eggs and Ham test. So, now I am HONESTLY working the calming protocol-- which I had not been. In the last two days, we've done three tasks. I could have done more-- need to put in more time. Once we do them all, then it's onto more distracting environments! 

Susan Garrett also had a video in which a dog happened to be jumping on her and biting her sleeve. She stood still and smiled, did not react. I do think-- had I done that EACH AND EVERY TIME, from the very beginning-- just stood there without a single reaction except maybe a little smile to calm myself (though I don't think she was calming herself-- she is more go with the flow)-- I honestly do not think I would be in this situation.

Not trying to pick on Chritty here, but in the video examples you show of yourself and your wife, I can see that from the dog's perspective, both are interacting with Millie (and she is free, not leashed)-- which is exactly what the dog wants and is reinforcing. Now, I've done the EXACT same thing repeatedly-- so again, not trying to pick on you at all. I have interacted with my dog many, many times when he jumps/bites-- the times I've stood perfectly still are rare in comparison. Again, _maybe_ if-- from the very beginning-- I'd honestly followed the advice of, don't move, don't react, stand still and had done it every.single.time. without fail, I think this behavior would be gone-- extinguished. _Maybe_ not-- but I will never know. 

Finally, I am getting ORGANIZED. I am putting all of my training material into a binder. But, I am still not documenting-- which I absolutely need to be doing! Again, there is a disconnect for me from what I know I _should_ do and what I am _actually_ doing.

So, I guess what I am saying is, at least for myself, I love when I find problems with what I've been doing (and there are many), because then it is a wonderful starting point and helps me be proactive!


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## Chritty

I know you're not picking on me!!

But to answer that I would say that I do not want to have to leash my dog anytime I want to walk in the backyard. I do not want to have to give her timeouts. I do not want to have my wife lock herself in the bathroom and cry her heart out because she cannot get control over an animal. And what this training method has given us is freedom from those things. We have a happy puppy who is free in our home, my wife last night remarked that she loves her more than ever. We have harmony. 

I often think about what ifs. 

But that's where I see the failings of aversive-free training. For someone who really, really knows dogs like Susan Garrett, understands every bit of body language and all that it can work on behaviour. For people that have multi dog households it can work because the older dogs put the young ones in line. A pack is a team but if your dog doesn't think it has to listen to you when you tell it no then you are not the leader of that team. 

Who are the people that are having these issues that we are having? I'm willing to guess most are first time dog owners. My wife grew up with dogs but never raised one herself. I grew up with cats. In my opinion being told not to correct behaviours is the worst advice to give a new dog owner (I'm basing this on my sample size of 1 and what I've read in 10months of being on this forum). 

I mentioned earlier that a trainer friend of mine said that Millie is not taking us seriously because we have never clearly defined boundaries. Well our current trainer said the exact same thing on Monday night. And it's true. And now we've clearly defined a boundary she has listened and gotten the message. It's done. No more lingering. No more harassment. She knows if she chooses to offer that behaviour that there is a consequence. Is it really a deterrent to give your dog something else to do or is that in itself a rewarding experience for the original behaviour. For my mind it's only fair to give your dog a right/wrong definition and to give it to them in a language they understand. 

There have been some great talks on this forum about what it takes to get to the top of competitive dog sports. And everyone who participated in the discussions and has gotten to the top used corrections to achieve the upper echelon. 

From my understanding there were some horrible methods employed a long time ago that were really terrible, whips and riding crops etc. 

These aren't those. 

I do feel that aversive-free takes advantage of people in that most dogs will outgrow these behaviours by, let's say, 3 years of age. "Keep at it", "it'll be worth it in the end". Meanwhile you suffer, family suffer and your dog suffers. Why use only the long method when there are shorter methods? Why only use long when you could be utilising both and be a lot happier? Please read this http://clickandtreat.com/wordpress/?p=429

Like you Anele, I hope you understand that I'm not picking on you. I believe I have information that may help, that's all.


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## solinvictus

I am going to just touch on a few things in Michael Ellis's video as it is packed with so much information. 

For some reason owners get the impression that reward based training means that the owner should be permissive and not set structure, routines and boundraries. Owners seem to get into trouble because they are not consistent, have clear criteria of what is acceptable behavior and follow through with consequences. 

If you looked at the Michael Ellis video he says he is very careful with his young dogs and doesn't punish his young dogs with corrections or social pressure. It isn't fair to use compulsion and force when a dog doesn't know the behaviors. He states that corrections undermine the relationship and have the potential to have a reactive dog vs an active dog. 
When a dog is young the best thing to do is to use management tools until you have the solid behaviors you want in place. He does mention that there are times when we the owners make mistakes and our dogs may get into an unsafe situation. At that time we do what ever we have to to keep our dog safe. This is where he says we may need to do an aversive like pull on the leash to keep the dog from going into the street. He is not advocating using compulsion, force or aversives he just understands that most owners will at some point make a mistake leaving our dog at risk and the safety of the dog is important. If the dog had a solid sit or recall instead of using the aversive he would ask for the behavior instead. But management will make these mistakes very limited.
Later in the video he does mention using a dogs oppositional reflex to work them under some stress. It is done as a completely different training exercise not in context with his other training. Most reward base trainers do work their dogs under stressful situations over time but it is built into their training program. As a dog knows their behaviors and cues you add into it more distractions. Susan Garrett uses DASH in building up her behaviors. D-duration, A-accuracy, S-speed, H-habitat. Habitat is what Anele was alluding to with green eggs and ham. Can your dog perform the function anytime, anywhere. If he can't then he doesn't really understand the behavior/cue.
Why management? I can only use the thoughts that we don't let our very young children run free in the house to touch a hot stove, put a finger in an electric plug, let them crawl on the floor near a set of step. We use playpens, gates and our supervision. As the child grows and has some understandings we give a little more freedom. We need to do the same with our dogs. So reward based training isn't permissive. It has clear boundaries, consistency and criteria with freedoms growing as the dog understands the behaviors and cues. I really like that Michael Ellis video it has been linked here many times. I think someone new to training should watch it more than once as there is a lot of information to take in.

Anele you are right when a child is in the throes of a tantrum they are above threshold and they cannot think. It is the same with our dogs. We need to be proactive and make sure they do not get to that point. This is an extremely hard task and with a pup that has a low threshold it can be daunting for the owner. We and our dogs are a work in progress. Celebrate every little success and think of the mistakes as just awesome learning moments. Looking at the big picture makes everything look impossible but you have overcome so much in such a short time already. Take it all in baby steps and if something isn't working re-evaluate and make small changes to see if that will work better for you. 
I do encourage you to keep a log and to video tape your sessions as it is amazing what we think we are doing isn't really what we are doing that the dog sees.


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## Anele

I don't feel like you are picking on me at all, Chritty! 

First of all, I am very happy that your wife is feeling more peace, less stress, and enjoying your Millie more. That is so important! 

_*But to answer that I would say that I do not want to have to leash my dog anytime I want to walk in the backyard. *

_The leash is not used permanently! It is used to IMMEDIATELY stop the _practice_ of unwanted behavior. So, in that sense-- it is sort of like what you are saying with the correction-- it puts a stop to what you don't want. 
Think about it like you would weight loss.If someone has to lose 36 kg, it will take much longer than if they would have to lose only 2 kg. So, if a dog has been practicing the unwanted behavior for months or years, it WILL take longer than if the dog had only been doing it a few days. That's why it's so important to use management-- it STOPS the behavior immediately so there is no chance to "get it wrong." 

_*I do not want to have to give her timeouts.*

_Why not? If you want to use corrections, consider it a correction!By doing so, you are establishing what is acceptable-- those boundaries you are looking for. Again-- this is is not something you have to do permanently. It is used while the dog is learning-- the dog is learning what happens when he/she chooses x behavior.
_
*Who are the people that are having these issues that we are having? I'm willing to guess most are first time dog owners.*_
I absolutely agree. I think most of us are 1st time dog owners (I had one before but gave up training him-- he turned out fine other than being a super puller-- but fine otherwise). AND, I do believe we have more challenging dogs than others in _some_ cases. 

*In my opinion being told not to correct behaviours is the worst advice to give a new dog owner.*

I agree that we should just not put up and suffer-- but I would say that more experienced people don't advise not to correct behaviors-- they just have different ways to do it. 

First step is prevention, which comes from management. This cannot be overstated! As new dog owners, though, and with dogs who are more easily aroused, this can be extremely challenging and we will make mistakes. For sure. Even very experienced owners make mistakes, so why would we expect more from ourselves?

Along with this, however, is training! Training means putting our dogs in easy situations where they practice wanted behaviors, and then gradually making the situations harder when we see success. But-- management/prevention is what we use in the meantime as the dog is learning. Management and training are PARTNERS.

We are also supposed to be putting our dogs in situations where there are planned frustrations! We control the frustration level/plan for when there are failures, so that the dog can succeed and work through the it-- because that's life. Life isn't about making things perfect, but about learning what to do when it isn't. This makes for a stable dog who has learned to cope and rise to challenges in a thoughtful way. 

As for this taking a long time-- it shouldn't. I imagine that, even if corrections, it takes time for your dog to be put in various situations (just as it is with R+) and the dog will test, "What happens if I do this?" If it takes a long time, then the TRAINER is doing it wrong. It doesn't mean the method is wrong.

In my case, overall, I see significant improvement in many ways and I have been working on it (sort of) for a month-- but as I said, I'm going to be more consistent (this is key) and honest with what I am doing (haven't been). 

On the plus side, our dog is getting MORE and more affectionate and more trustworthy with my children! (Though I never fully trust any dog!)


----------



## Chritty

That's so good that Kevin is starting to be more affectionate!! I remember when Millie first started really coming over to me for snuggles at around 22 weeks. My heart melted!!

Hopefully you'll find that he'll be going to a calmer phase right now


----------



## Loukia

Anele, I want to thank you for starting this discussion. It's given all of us a very constructive place to discuss the various challenges we face with our puppies. We've had the opportunity to vent our frustrations and share our successes with individuals that really know what we're going through and are eagerly willing to listen to yet another dog story (which isn't always the case at home). 

It's really nice that we've all come together on this thread to try and find the best methods that work for our individual dogs. It's very evident to me that we love our puppies very much. Having this discussion really does help all of us. It helps us with ideas, various methods, support and reflection. 

As with parenthood, we may not always agree and that's ok. We may not all take the same approach and we may need to make modifications as our puppies differ in personality, response and motivation. But, I think we can all agree that while we may not always take the same approach, our advice and suggestions come from a good place. We all want to see each other succeed. We are here because we are all working hard to ensure we end up with well behaved, well adjusted, happy, adult dogs. 

If I could sum up the most important thing I've learned in the almost 9 months I've had Comet, it's to get professional help. In addition, if the help doesn't feel right, if it doesn't seem to work, etc., then move on to someone else. I didn't realize in the beginning that I really should have taken finding a professional trainer as seriously as I took finding a breeder. 

I went through several months of training that simply didn't work well for Comet or for me. It took me a good 6 months to feel confident enough in my own convictions to realize they might not be the right fit for Comet and me. I took finding our current trainer much more seriously. I did research, I called people, I found references, and I saw the end result of his training in several adult dogs. While I'll always wonder where Comet might be in his training had I started with our current trainer, our 6 months of relatively unsuccessful training wasn't all for not. Comet and I bonded and worked hard together, even if we often ended the day frustrated or confused. And while I felt seriously defeated when Comet's current trainer told me that we should start from ground zero, I quickly realized that it's never too late to start over and begin anew. 

As my husband, kids and parents sat around the dinner table tonight for a family dinner, my mom said "Comet has really turned a corner. I am so impressed with how far he's come these past few months." My husband, who has been less than thrilled with Comet's antics these last 9 months, agreed and said he too was impressed. And as sappy as it sounds, I got choked up and teary eyed. I finally feel like all of my hard work is paying off. It took 9 months; 6 months of trial and error with lax trainers and another 3 months of great training with a supportive and very detailed trainer, but we've finally turned a corner. I feel better equipped with the tools to train and Comet is happy and confident in his ability to understand and execute commands.

As I've said before, Comet still has his challenges, he's still a work in progress, and I continue to go to his trainer weekly for further training and obedience work, but I finally feel like our hard work is paying off. 

Thank you to all of you for your kind words, support, and willingness to listen. I'll continue to keep you all posted on our challenges and successes.


----------



## Anele

Here is our latest update. Not so happy about it.

So-- our history has been:
(1) 8 weeks - 3 months, collar: No biting at this point on walks ever; didn't even occur to me to worry about it!
(2) 3 months, Sensation harness: Still had not begun biting on walks but didn't like the harness because it constricted his movement pretty badly, rubbed off fur.
(3) 4.5 months, switched back to collar and Ruffwear harness: attacks on walks started while on collar.
(4) 6 months (one week so far), began using Freedom harness (front clip): no attacks at all on walks, no pulling, wonderful heel most of the time automatically, but too soon to tell if positive results due to harness because the biting is usually a weekly, not daily occurrence.

On our walk today, we passed some very sad, small dogs who seemed to be dealing with barrier frustration/aggression. They were frantic and stressed with their barking. Kevin was so confused as he is used to happy dogs, but I just kept tossing treats on the ground to move us along, and he complied.

In other news-- for the first time ever, we were able to walk calmly on the sidewalk with a group of men talking in a driveway (so a relatively close distance) and Kevin did not jump to try to peek at them, and he didn't stop-- he paused but then he moved on walking with me! I was so happy about that. At least today, he showed more self control at a closer distance with people.

Now for the bad, upsetting news-- I let my 10 y.o. daughter take him out alone on leash to the yard to do his business on Friday, but then after he did both (I know, TMI, but it seems like I've heard this is a patten with some dogs) and he was loose, he started with zoomies and ended up jumping/biting resulting in bruises on her arms. I took him by his lead after she yelled for me and he settled instantly without a word. So, the bruising is what is very concerning to me . . .obviously my 10 y.o. won't be able to take him out alone at all now.

The strange thing is he never puts his mouth on us at all indoors. Very distinct pattern of it being outside, he starts jumping and looking crazy, and then he goes for a human to jump/bite. If he left no marks I would not be worried.

Chritty, I hope you are continuing with your wonderful progress with Millie!

Loukia, I am so happy you are having so many successes with Comet. To have your family see the difference after all of your hard work must feel like such a wonderful relief and cause for celebration. You are in what we are told is the hardest phase yet you are having the most results now. Whatever happened in the past for the first 6 months didn't hurt Comet in any way, even though you didn't see the progress you wanted, so you must find comfort in that, because doing harm is a million times worse than just not getting the job done. You bonded with him during that time, too, and that is key!

I agree with all of your other points, but want to emphasize what you said about professional help-- this is critical. Dog behavior that is difficult or dangerous in some cases to manage is not anything to mess around with. 

That is where I am right now-- my wonderful long-distance trainer has been helping me to assess this, as to how safe or unsafe my dog is for my family. But, as she is long-distance/can't see us in person regularly, I am in the process of looking for someone closer to home, and have been in contact with someone who has done extensive work with our local GR rescue, so I am excited about that-- hoping she will call back soon!

I was looking for information about mouthing-- very worried about the bruising aspect, and I found a great site. Always something new to learn.

Here is the article about mouthing-- I like the idea of capping but I'll have to think about how to safely get my dog excited on purpose right now . . .at this point, he is so calm most of the time EXCEPT in this situation, or with the cat! 

It also has this article about corrections. Now, I am no expert, but I thought it presented a lot of good information and food for thought! 

Some highlights-- quotes from the article:


If you are questioning the power of withholding a reward, I will note two particular researches that were done in Germany and in Mexico. Both tests involved working dogs and they were tested on their levels of cortisone (stress hormone) in their blood after each of the different types of dog training corrections. One of these correction types was withholding a reward. The results showed that dogs actually reacted more stressfully to withholding a reward than they did to an E-collar (electronic stimulation). Please note that these were controlled studies performed under the proper use of these tools and techniques.
Your relationship plays a huge role when applying physical dog training corrections. The more that your dog is comfortable with you; the more chance that you have for getting away with applying a physical correction on him.
Always remember that whatever correction you are using for a certain behavior or scenario; always stick with the *“rule of three”*.If it didn’t work after three times, either your dog doesn’t know what to do instead, or you are doing something wrong, so change your approach.
The level of your dog’s training is the most important factor. *The more time you spend working and training your dog, the less often (if at all) you will need corrections.*
The last one is so important, I think. The more time we train/work our dogs, the less often corrections will be needed. (And by "corrections," I think the author is referring to ALL sorts of corrections, not just the physical ones.)


Anyway, I am trying to be very focused on my body language in general because, according to the article (in the section about leash corrections) it emphasizes how much our dogs are able to predict what we do. My dog is very focused on me so now I have to really think about what he's thinking even more.


----------



## Anele

Here is our latest update. Not so happy about it.

So-- our history has been:
(1) 8 weeks - 3 months, collar: No biting at this point on walks ever; didn't even occur to me to worry about it!
(2) 3 months, Sensation harness: Still had not begun biting on walks but didn't like the harness because it constricted his movement pretty badly, rubbed off fur.
(3) 4.5 months, switched back to collar and Ruffwear harness: attacks on walks started while on collar.
(4) 6 months (one week so far), began using Freedom harness (front clip): no attacks at all on walks, no pulling, wonderful heel most of the time automatically, but too soon to tell if positive results due to harness because the biting is usually a weekly, not daily occurrence.

On our walk today, we passed some very sad, small dogs who seemed to be dealing with barrier frustration/aggression. One teeny one was wearing a choke collar! They were frantic and stressed with their barking. Kevin was so confused as he is used to happy dogs, but I just kept tossing treats on the ground to move us along, and he complied.

In other news-- for the first time ever, we were able to walk calmly on the sidewalk with a group of men talking in a driveway (so a relatively close distance) and Kevin did not jump to try to peek at them, and he didn't stop-- he paused but then he moved on walking with me! I was so happy about that. At least today, he showed more self control at a closer distance with people.

Now for the bad, upsetting news-- I let my 10 y.o. daughter take him out alone on leash to the yard to do his business on Friday, but then after he did both (I know, TMI, but it seems like I've heard this is a patten with some dogs) and he was loose, he started with zoomies and ended up jumping/biting resulting in bruises on her arms. I took him by his lead after she yelled for me and he settled instantly without a word. So, the bruising is what is very concerning to me . . .obviously my 10 y.o. won't be able to take him out alone at all now.

The strange thing is he never puts his mouth on us at all indoors. Very distinct pattern of it being outside, he starts jumping and looking crazy, and then he goes for a human to jump/bite. If he left no marks I would not be worried.

Chritty, I hope you are continuing with your wonderful progress with Millie!

Loukia, I am so happy you are having so many successes with Comet. To have your family see the difference after all of your hard work must feel like such a wonderful relief and cause for celebration. You are in what we are told is the hardest phase yet you are having the most results now. Whatever happened in the past for the first 6 months didn't hurt Comet in any way, even though you didn't see the progress you wanted, so you must find comfort in that, because doing harm is a million times worse than just not getting the job done. You bonded with him during that time, too, and that is key!

I agree with all of your other points, but want to emphasize what you said about professional help-- this is critical. Dog behavior that is difficult or dangerous in some cases to manage is not anything to mess around with. 

That is where I am right now-- my wonderful long-distance trainer has been helping me to assess this, as to how safe or unsafe my dog is for my family. But, as she is long-distance/can't see us in person regularly, I am in the process of looking for someone closer to home, and have been in contact with someone who has done extensive work with our local GR rescue, so I am excited about that-- hoping she will call back soon!

I was looking for information about mouthing-- very worried about the bruising aspect, and I found a great site. Always something new to learn.

Here is the article about mouthing-- I like the idea of capping but I'll have to think about how to safely get my dog excited on purpose right now . . .at this point, he is so calm most of the time EXCEPT in this situation, or with the cat! 

It also has this article about corrections. Now, I am no expert, but I thought it presented a lot of good information and food for thought! 

Some highlights-- quotes from the article:


If you are questioning the power of withholding a reward, I will note two particular researches that were done in Germany and in Mexico. Both tests involved working dogs and they were tested on their levels of cortisone (stress hormone) in their blood after each of the different types of dog training corrections. One of these correction types was withholding a reward. The results showed that dogs actually reacted more stressfully to withholding a reward than they did to an E-collar (electronic stimulation). Please note that these were controlled studies performed under the proper use of these tools and techniques.
Your relationship plays a huge role when applying physical dog training corrections. The more that your dog is comfortable with you; the more chance that you have for getting away with applying a physical correction on him.
Always remember that whatever correction you are using for a certain behavior or scenario; always stick with the *“rule of three”*.If it didn’t work after three times, either your dog doesn’t know what to do instead, or you are doing something wrong, so change your approach.
The level of your dog’s training is the most important factor. *The more time you spend working and training your dog, the less often (if at all) you will need corrections.*
The last one is so important, I think. The more time we train/work our dogs, the less often corrections will be needed. (And by "corrections," I think the author is referring to ALL sorts of corrections, not just the physical ones.)


Anyway, I am trying to be very focused on my body language in general because, according to the article (in the section about leash corrections) it emphasizes how much our dogs are able to predict what we do. My dog is very focused on me so now I have to really think about what he's thinking even more.


----------



## Loukia

Anele,

Thank you for the update. I'm sorry to hear about Kevin's antics outside with your daughter. I hope she isn't too shaken up by the whole experience. 

It does sound like Kevin made some progress with the other outside challenges he faced today. So you have to feel good about that!

It's great to read that you've found a trainer locally to help you. Getting professional help, particularly when you're dealing with a challenge or new to puppy training (like us), is so helpful. When I finally found Comet's current trainer and felt like he really knew how to help me, it took SO much pressure off of me because I felt like I finally had someone who I could depend on to guide me through the various challenges. And the more I work with him, the less anxiety I feel when Comet does mess up because I know I have someone to turn to for advice and help.

To your point about corrections. I know you and I have talked privately about our struggles and the methods Comet's current trainer has helped me to institute. But to anyone who may read my postings, I do want to provide a little follow-up. The practices I'm following (per a professional trainer during private lessons) very much parallel the Michael Ellis video that Critty posted, right down to not correcting for behavior unless it is VERY solid. The "corrections" I discuss are not always physical and the basis of our training sessions are very fun and positive. Sometimes it's withholding a treat, stopping play, a time out in a crate, leaving the room, etc. And when it is a physical correction, it is only for behavior that is completely solidified that Comet has chosen to disregard. There are no corrections for behaviors he doesn't yet understand thoroughly. 

I haven't had a chance to read the articles you posted but I'm off to do that after this. 

To your point about body language. I'm always amazed at how I accidentally use my body incorrectly. This is one area my previous trainers completely failed me because they were always quick to praise my efforts instead of correct me. Comet's current trainer is quick to explain how my body movements and language will affect Comet's movement and location. He has helped me really understand that even something as simply as my feet can affect his heel. One example is that I have a tendency to lean in and over when I give Comet his "come" command. It's as if I'm leaning in to hug him as he runs to me. In doing so, he'll come and sit, but sit just a bit too far for me to reach him. And what I've learned from my current trainer is that Comet is respecting my space and staying out of my "bubble" of personal space. So instead of leaning forward, I have to stand tall as he approaches and lean back as he gets very close. In doing so, he now runs right to me and sits directly in front of my feet. It's a quick and easy fix, but if you aren't working with someone who is willing to point out the small execution errors, it's hard to improve. Another example is that I didn't realize that I was actually turning myself in a way to have Comet get ahead of me when heeling. He was always about 1 foot too far in front of me during heel. Now, I keep my body straight (with my belly button forward) and hold my hand in a different place and he stays in position. I suppose if you were to watch me with Comet's trainer, it might seem like he was being too picky, but what I've found is that his meticulous analysis of my movements has pulled Comet into position in such a way that his execution is really improving. 

Anele, I agree that our body language is so important and it's one more reason why working with someone (when you run into issues) can be so helpful.


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## Chritty

Anele, if you remember our PM conversations and I showed you a video of a trainer friend of mine rehabilitating a Dog Aggressive Bull Terrier, the points that you singled out, especially the rule of three, are very much part of his training ethos!!

https://www.facebook.com/K9BalanceSydney/videos/759499690836833/


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## Chritty

After reading those articles I noted this:

The writer refers to the rule of three only when speaking of mechanical corrections. However, when using passive techniques you must be persistent and stick it out. 

Contradicting much?


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## lloyddobler

This is the best forum. Thank you Anele for starting it and to everyone else who has contributed their helpful info to keep it going! I only have a few minutes, but I wanted to give an update. I see the second behaviorist next Saturday and I really think we will get more help with a more balanced approach. 

Last week Lloyd was a holy terror and went nutty every time he was on his leash. I left him him home from work on Friday and went home at about 1 pm, took him for a walk and worked from home the remainder of the day. I noticed that day and the rest of the weekend that he was much more calm. I have no idea if me leaving him home from work contributed to that or not, but I'm doing the same thing today and tomorrow to see if the patten continues. He will still tend to get worked up after seeing another dog or if a motorcycle or loud vehicle drives by. However, I can tell when he is getting antsy and I break out the string cheese and get him focused on that which has allowed us to not have any biting frenzies the last few days. It is not a long term solution, but at least I feel I am in control and managing the situation for right now. That feels good. Not having control and feeling hopeless was AWFUL. However, I realize that I can't depend on having string cheese with me everywhere I go for the rest of my life. That just isn't a solution.

Keep the updates coming everyone! I'm so happy that so many folks are making great progress with their pups and helping us learn along the way!

I wish I had more to contribute for tips and tricks that have worked, but hopefully I will after I spend some time with my new behaviorist.


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## Loukia

Hi All, I don't have much time, but did want to check in. 

Lloyd's Mom, it's great to read that you're finding ways to manage things. Until you start getting help from an expert, management is a great way to go. Even after, there are times I manage Comet and times I train Comet and it depends on what I have time for and what's going on in the moment. We aren't off treats or food, and Comet's trainer said he never fully eliminates the treats... even if it means 1 in 1000 times. He said the goal is to leave the dog always hoping and wondering if he'll get a treat or reward, and in the mean time the behavior becomes pretty second nature. The reward can be affection, a ball, etc. For now, Comet is SO food motivated, we've kept it with food.

I had a chance to read the two articles (mouthing) and corrections. I would say I agree with the majority of the information on corrections. I don't know that I know enough about mouthing to have an opinion one way or the other, but most of it makes sense to me.

There were some confusing points in the correction article and some points I probably wouldn't necessarily agree with. The points I tend to disagree with are those that some what contradict the principles of Operant Conditioning. I think the general ideology of the article follows the Operant Conditioning theory and is the same as what I'm doing with Comet's trainer. Operant Conditioning is the basis of the Michael Ellis video that Critty posted. It's also the basis of the methodology that Comet's current trainer is helping me utilize with Comet. Which box you utilize depends on the behavior, the understanding of the dog, the outside factors, etc. It has done wonders for Comet thus far and he is a happier dog now. He doesn't guess commands, he knows them, he doesn't look at me confused, he knows what I'm communicating. I'm sure some of his assurance and understanding comes from the precision and exact execution his current trainer has taught me, but I do feel much of it comes from Operant Conditioning - which doesn't mean a tremendous amount of physical correction. I think what some people assume is that if you're giving any type of correction that it's physical and/or that you're being abusive or rough with your dog, but this couldn't be further from the truth. If you listen to Michael Ellis and if you work with someone following a similar philosophy, you hear him talk about motivating the dog and keeping them motivated to work for you. A timid, fearfull, or broken dog is not motivated by anything other than fear and that's dangerous to everyone involved. Comet is WAY happier with this method than he ever was with the Gentle Leader and previous training approach. I'm not knocking the previous approach, but I do feel it wasn't the best method for Comet. Similar to how I use different methods to teach my children, I think this method better suits Comet's personality. 

Any way, that's really all I have to add.


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## Anele

Chritty, that is a good point about the rule of three! My grasp on this is very poor, so I have no idea. Are you specifically referring to extinction? In other words, ifyou've ignored the dog 3 times, then the behavior should be gone? Seems like a contradiction, as you said, and I don't know nearly enough to explain it one way or another!

lloyddobler, I am so glad that you've found a solution, at least for now. If not going to work helps, then yay! I don't foresee you having to use the cheese forever (though as Loukia said, there needs to be the possibility for cheese in Lloyd's mind forever!). Controlling and managing the situation right now is a HUGE win. 

Loukia, I think part of what helps is that YOU feel good about the current training method. You are getting results and that helps your confidence as a handler. Your trainer is helping you see/notice/study things in a new way that makes sense to you. (And is picky! I like picky trainers!) I believe the feeling of confidence is vital. Even though I don't agree with Cesar Milan about too much, I definitely believe in being calm and assertive. ASSERTIVE just means you have boundaries, respect yourself, etc. If we feel terrorized/helpless/confused/scared/whatever by our dogs, then we aren't doing anyone any good. I know that, for myself, I feel much more confident around my pup-- and that is 100% due to the fact that my trainer ID'd ways in which I was not previously. 

I heard back from the local trainer. I like what she had to say. 

(1) She didn't tell me to (or not to) neuter, but she mentioned that, at 6 months, my pup's hormones are more out-of-control than a male who is 2 years old. That is something to think about! Not necessarily as a case to neuter, but the fact that teens really have a lot on their plates. 

(2) She advised I discontinue the structured playtime as it allows my dog to practice his aroused behaviors. 

So-- we will meet at the end of next week.


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## Loukia

Anele, I definitely agree that as a result of Comet's current trainer and his methods, I'm feeling better, happier and more confident in my ability to handle Comet... my energy has to help in my ability to communicate with Comet. You can tell someone to act assertive or calm and confident, all day long, but if you don't feel confident in what you're supposed to do in various situations, it's really hard to be confident and assertive. Having a direction and an answer/approach really helps me feel calm and collected, even when Comet gets into a wild mood. I now know what I'm supposed to do, the steps to take, how to react, etc. It takes the stress out of it for me.

It's great to read that your conversation with the new trainer went well. It's good that she told you to discontinue the arousal-stimulating behavior. This is basically the same advice I got from Comet's trainer and is also one of the reasons we discontinued doggy daycare. Comet loved it but came back and bit us more frequently and much harder for a good few days after. So much of what we do with our puppies parallels what we do for our kids as toddlers. My trainer actually said, "would you take your toddler to a place where he could go wild, bite, hit and scratch his friends? And then expect him to turn that off as soon as he walked into your house? If you can identify triggers for bad behavior, try to remove the triggers and then we can work towards desensitizing him."

I notice that Comet will still randomly go wild and try to jump at the leash around 9 PM. If he does this now, it's immediately inside and into his crate for a half hour. He still seems to do this when he's overtired but it's very rare now that he's on a pretty good schedule and will more easily nap when he's tired. He's doing a better job of listening to his body when he's tired (now if I could just teach my 9 year old son the same thing, I'd be all set!).


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## Marcus

Sorry for sticking my 2 cents worth in, as I just finished reading this thread.
(Please note: I'm not in anyway judging or been mean and please don't take this the wrong way)



Anele said:


> Here is our latest update. Not so happy about it.
> 
> Now for the bad, upsetting news-- I let my 10 y.o. daughter take him out alone on leash to the yard to do his business on Friday, but then after he did both


I'm confused why would you hand the lead to a 10 year old, of a dog you know isn't going to behave? In my mind, it's setting the dog up for failure. If the dog settled once you took over. then only you should handle the dog on lead for now.




Anele said:


> he started with zoomies and ended up jumping/biting resulting in bruises on her arms.


He did that because he was on lead and had no where to go... so he trying to get free of the lead, and that just happens to be attached to you hand/arm etc... and they don't have hands so.... mouth/teeth it's going to be...



Anele said:


> The strange thing is he never puts his mouth on us at all indoors.


 He isn't on lead indoors so has no reason to want to get free of anything



Anele said:


> Very distinct pattern of it being outside, he starts jumping and looking crazy, and then he goes for a human to jump/bite. If he left no marks I would not be worried.


See above

I agree with the others, if one method isn't working, then try something else etc until you find something that does. Even if it's against what you think is acceptable. 

(Sometimes as much as you don't want to, sometimes children need a spank)


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## Anele

Still don't know how to multi-quote!

Loukia:

*You can tell someone to act assertive or calm and confident, all day long, but if you don't feel confident in what you're supposed to do in various situations, it's really hard to be confident and assertive. 
*
I absolutely agree with this, and in the case when it involves out-of-control (feels more than just a nuisance) behavior, it is imperative that we learn the specifics of what exactly to do. 

_*It's good that she told you to discontinue the arousal-stimulating behavior. This is basically the same advice I got from Comet's trainer and is also one of the reasons we discontinued doggy daycare.*
_
Yes-- I ONLY started this playtime business recently. Didn't do daycare ever as I was worried about the consequences-- some people advised me that maybe some playtime with dogs would tire my pup out, help with bite inhibition, etc. so I thought this would be a good compromise. It's one hour and structured, we are there, etc. but it's not helping, and could be harming, so I will stop.

Interestingly, re: bite inhibition, the more I talk to trainers, the more I am learning that it may not be teachable! It may be due to genetics more than anything, or-- I've also heard-- is "fixed" by the time the dogs leave their littermates. In other words, if they haven't learned by the time you've brought them home, it's too late. 
*
He's doing a better job of listening to his body when he's tired (now if I could just teach my 9 year old son the same thing, I'd be all set!).*

This is fantastic-- and I think, ultimately, that's what we want-- THINKING dogs that make good choices. Haha about your 9 y.o. Ack! Some of my kids are good about listening to their bodies, some, not so good! It's tough!


----------



## Anele

Marcus, re:

_*I'm confused why would you hand the lead to a 10 year old, of a dog you know isn't going to behave? In my mind, it's setting the dog up for failure. If the dog settled once you took over. then only you should handle the dog on lead for now.*

_Because I made a mistake? I feel horrible about it-- it has weighed heavily on me, and is the reason I am seeking more pro help. But, the other reason is that my children have successfully taken the dog out on lead in our YARD (only-- that is the only time I allow them with him) to do his business, and he has always been 100% fine with all of us in this situation. 

*He did that because he was on lead and had no where to go... so he trying to get free of the lead, and that just happens to be attached to you hand/arm etc... and they don't have hands so.... mouth/teeth it's going to be...*

No, that's not true-- sorry, I wasn't clear. When he jumped/bit my daughter, she'd let him loose. He still had a short lead attached but he was free. She let go to let him roam once he did his business. I didn't know she'd let him loose. That's when we've had problems.

*He isn't on lead indoors so has no reason to want to get free of anything*

Again-- he isn't leash reactive-- this has actually been happening more when he's not on lead outside in the yard. So far, since we've had this new harness, he hasn't jumped/bitten at all on walks. I am not promising it won't happen, but it hasn't yet.

*
I agree with the others, if one method isn't working, then try something else etc until you find something that does. Even if it's against what you think is acceptable. *

I agree. But-- if you look at my post about being honest with what I've been doing, I know that I haven't "worked the program" to the extent I've needed to. As you pointed out, I foolishly let my daughter take him out (mistake #1) and didn't remind her not to let him loose (mistake #2). Now, _I_ have been able to have him free with me lately with no problems, but I monitor the situation. 

So, I need to be sure I am managing properly, preventing, and working on the calming protocols regularly, making sure I am keeping up with training, and going to re-enroll my dog in class. We are almost done with the first set of the calming tasks indoors, so I think we are going to attempt it outdoors in our yard next. If it's too tough, then we'll go back inside but in a different room. 

I guess what I find is that sometimes people are given advice, but they may not fully and honestly implement it (even when given by a professional they themselves have paid) and then they claim the advice isn't working . . . I don't want to fall into the trap. When I follow what my trainer says to do, it DOES work. I just have to keep up with it!


----------



## Marcus

Anele said:


> Still don't know how to multi-quote!


A lot of copy and pasting 



Anele said:


> I've also heard-- is "fixed" by the time the dogs leave their littermates. In other words, if they haven't learned by the time you've brought them home, it's too late.


Nope, puppies are biters. they learn by interaction. The best method to teach a puppy about bite inhibition is during playtime with other dogs... the yelping other dogs give, is them saying ouch stop that, thats way too hard.

You can try mimicking this during your playtime, some people say it works... did work for me... putting Ben in with other dogs constantly did the trick.



Anele said:


> Marcus, re:
> When I follow what my trainer says to do, it DOES work. I just have to keep up with it!


This is also my biggest downfall...lack of reinforcement on my end. Hindsight is 20/20 and I know I'd do things differently given the change...


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## Cpc1972

I agree all puppies bite. They eventually grow out of it or stop. Chloe land shark phase ended a long time ago. But every once in awhile she does this over arousal biting to my mom when outside. Then there is her jumping and biting me. This is her wanting to play rough. Nothing more. Today when we got home she jumped up so excited. I said no bite and she jumped off ran and got her toy and jumped back up. It was very cute. But I do hope the jumping up stops soon because she is getting so big.


----------



## Anele

Marcus said:


> A lot of copy and pasting
> 
> 
> Nope, puppies are biters. they learn by interaction. The best method to teach a puppy about bite inhibition is during playtime with other dogs... the yelping other dogs give, is them saying ouch stop that, thats way too hard.
> 
> You can try mimicking this during your playtime, some people say it works... did work for me... putting Ben in with other dogs constantly did the trick.



Hee hee about the copying and pasting! That's a lot of work!

I have read what you wrote in many, many sources, that dogs learn by interaction with us-- but the latest trainer said she isn't so sure. Ditto for the yelping, playing with other dogs, etc. I assumed it was a "given" but apparently, it's not! Trainers I've spoken with are more careful/data-driven to separate what is out there in terms of the collective knowledge we've agreed upon as true vs. scientific studies. They don't say what we've been told ISN'T true, necessarily, but that it may not be true, and there isn't the research to prove it one way or another. 

In my case, my dog was with his littermates until he was 9 weeks old and he was in puppy play, etc. and he wasn't too interested in our skin most of the time, we reacted when he did nip us, followed the routine. But, it also happens that, with "some" dogs, when they are in a state of arousal, they can have a harder mouth. 



http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Anele

Cpc1972 said:


> I agree all puppies bite. They eventually grow out of it or stop. Chloe land shark phase ended a long time ago. But every once in awhile she does this overdo usual biting to my mom when outside. Then there is her jumping and biting me. This is her wanting to play rough. Nothing more. Today when we got home she jumped up so excited. I said no bite and she jumped off ran and got her toy and jumped back up. It was very cute. But I do hope the jumping up stops soon because she is getting so big.


Well, unfortunately, they don't all stop! Or, they are OK in some situations but not others. 

Most of the time, I think my pup is also just playing rough, but because he does it with a harder mouth than I'd like, it's not acceptable. If he were just gently mouthing it would be better. 

I am working a lot on him taking treats in various states of arousal. I can totally tell how aroused he his by how he takes his treats. 
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Marcus

Cpc1972 said:


> But I do hope the jumping up stops soon because she is getting so big.


You know how little lap dogs jump all the time? That's them trying to get to your hands for a pat.... once you bend over enough that they can reach your hands then they stop jumping...

Same deal IMO



Anele said:


> In my case, my dog was with his littermates until he was 9 weeks old and he was in puppy play, etc. and he wasn't too interested in our skin most of the time, we reacted when he did nip us, followed the routine. But, it also happens that, with "some" dogs, when they are in a state of arousal, they can have a harder mouth.


Ben was this... no amount of ignoring... back turning....distraction, worked. 
When he got wound up he was impossible to stop, jumping, biting, humping, until he wore himself out... I don't know when it stopped (maybe a month or two) but it stopped. And the day we released it had... man oh man that was a good day.

We board Ben regularly when we're away for more then a night and also the off lead parks... The interaction with other dogs reminds him that he IS a dog, and reinforces the manners only other dogs can teach


----------



## Chritty

Anele said:


> Well, unfortunately, they don't all stop! Or, they are OK in some situations but not others.
> 
> Most of the time, I think my pup is also just playing rough, but because he does it with a harder mouth than I'd like, it's not acceptable. If he were just gently mouthing it would be better.
> 
> I am working a lot on him taking treats in various states of arousal. I can totally tell how aroused he his by how he takes his treats.
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/



This is where I've found that communicating in a clear language that the puppy understands handles the situation better than any other. 

No means no. 

I feel that it's too late for owners like us to use calm protocols to control the behavior. Now I'm not saying don't use calming, we use it everyday. I'm just saying that our dogs are beyond that point by the time they're displaying these behaviors. 

I wish we hadn't been taught to "throw a party" or "make a big deal out of it" when we started training our puppy. This started the chain of over arousal. We've reinforced it from the start, and now it's coming around and biting us in the proverbial we're clambering to stop it. WE ALLOWED IT AND ENCOURAGED IT!! 

I would rather go back 10 months and tell myself to work on calming protocols from day dot!!


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## Anele

Marcus said:


> We board Ben regularly when we're away for more then a night and also the off lead parks... The interaction with other dogs reminds him that he IS a dog, and reinforces the manners only other dogs can teach


The day it stopped was probably a very, very good day!

My memory of the puppy nipping with my pup is very foggy, believe it or not. I barely remember! 

As for daycare-- I think it just really depends on the dog. Some dogs are fantastic with daycare and thrive! Some dogs-- no. Mine has never been in it, but for sure the playtime hasn't made him better, though I can't for sure say it's been worse, so who knows.


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## lloyddobler

Marcus said:


> I don't know when it stopped (maybe a month or two) but it stopped. And the day we released it had... man oh man that was a good day.


How old was Ben when he stopped the biting/jumping?


----------



## Anele

Chritty said:


> This is where I've found that communicating in a clear language that the puppy understands handles the situation better than any other.
> 
> No means no and you'd better believe I'm serious.
> 
> I feel that it's too late for owners like us to use calm protocols to control the behavior. Now I'm not saying don't use calming, we use it everyday. I'm just saying that our dogs are beyond that point by the time they're displaying these behaviors.
> 
> I wish we hadn't been taught to "throw a party" or "make a big deal out of it" when we started training our puppy. This started the chain of over arousal. We've reinforced it from the start, and now it's coming around and biting us in the proverbial we're clambering to stop it. WE ALLOWED IT AND ENCOURAGED IT!!
> 
> I would rather go back 10 months and tell myself to work on calming protocols from day dot!!


Gosh, I COMPLETELY agree with you. WHY the heck isn't there more information out there about calmness? Why?? I mean, there IS but only if one knows to look for it. I think the calming protocol should be mandatory in every single puppy class out there. I know there is a lot to cover, but this is #1.

Instead, we hear: exercise, exercise, exercise. Again-- it just depends on the dog! We do a million times better when we focus on mental exercise vs. physical. In fact, for me, I believe this all started when I exercised my dog physically too much. He was always fine with short little walks. Didn't get into trouble in the house, or seem stressed with too little exercise or anything. But no-- I wanted to follow the slow growth plan in which dogs work up to 3 miles a day, not that we ever got to that! I'd love to walk 3 miles a day, but when I started increasing my mileage/time outside with him, THAT is when we started with problems.

In our case, we are doing OK as long as I follow the management program and sticking with the protocols, mental stimulation, short walks, etc. My dog is sort of leading a boring life (IMO) but he isn't acting up. If I didn't have children I don't feel like this would even be much of an issue at all IF we follow the program, because adults/my oldest daughter know how to spot if he's about to get wound up and put a stop to it before it starts. 

Like today-- he hung out with us in the house, did some very basic nosework, we worked through one "task" for the calming protocol, a little retrieving training with a new item-- he did well, went on one family walk (20 minutes?), he came with me in the car to pick up my kids on the last day of school (so cute-- I brought him a bone to chew and he wouldn't chew it at all until we picked them up-- then he was so happy and lying on their laps to chew), played a little in the yard but he got too hot, played a little inside, and took a 4 hour nap. Attempted a little counter surfing but not bad. When one of my cats (the shy one) made it past him while he was chewing, he looked at her and just kept chewing. No cat chasing. On our walk, we saw the same sad, small dogs (one of them with a too-big choke collar) barking crazily, and he was excited but did OK, no jumping . . .when we passed a lady, we went off to the grass and he was able to lie down calmly . . .that's about it! Boring, but he does better with boring! 

He got some new treats today-- dehydrated chicken meant for the cats (they dislike it so now it's his) and he went CRAZY for that. And, oddly, we bought some homemade treats from a friend and he also loved those. I need to start making my own treats!


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## Loukia

Anele said:


> But, it also happens that, with "some" dogs, when they are in a state of arousal, they can have a harder mouth.


I would definitely agree with that! Comet has a very soft mouth in general. Even when he's wound up, he still hasn't broken skin. However, when he's wound up he bites much harder than when he's playing in a semi-calm way. If he gets keyed up and tries to bite the leash or chase and bite (both unacceptable and things we've been working on eliminating through avoidance and conditioning), he bites much harder... still relatively soft compared to other dogs, but harder than his typical mouthing bites for sure.


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## Marcus

lloyddobler said:


> How old was Ben when he stopped the biting/jumping?


That's a tough question to answer. One day it stopped. I want to say somewhere from 7-8 months.


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## Loukia

Chritty said:


> This is where I've found that communicating in a clear language that the puppy understands handles the situation better than any other.
> 
> No means no.
> 
> I feel that it's too late for owners like us to use calm protocols to control the behavior.


Chris, I agree here. If Comet starts biting due to overexcitement, the only thing that stops him is my very firm voice saying "no". It's a voice I save for biting behavior and safety issues like eating something dangerous. But he hears it and it snaps him out of it and 90% of the time now he puts himself in a sit. 

It actually happened today for the first time in awhile. I had Comet on the long lead playing fetch. All was going well and then the two neighbor dogs came outside (they are dog aggressive, jump, bark and carry on until they go back inside or we go inside). Comet hasn't ever interacted with them (for obvious reasons) but he is pretty sure they're over there waiting for him to join in the chaos. He always gets keyed up and overly excited when they're out. In any case, he was on the long lead playing fetch, they came out and it suddenly turned into show off time. He did some zoomies and them jumped at the leash in my hand and tried to bite the leash where I was holding it. I could see it happening in slow motion. I dropped my hand very low to the ground so he'd miss and looked at him with a frown and said "no"! He threw himself into a sit and looked completely embarrassed. It was enough to snap him out of the behavior and we went inside.


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## Loukia

Marcus said:


> That's a tough question to answer. One day it stopped. I want to say somewhere from 7-8 months.


LOL! Well, Comet is 11 months in 7 days. I'm still waiting. Though, as I've said before we are WAY ahead of where we were and the behavior seems to reduce by the day. I've read some posts on the forum where people with more driven/determined dogs waited until 2 or 3 before they saw a real mellowing out. I'm hoping I won't have to wait until 3... but I won't be surprised if it takes another year. And I understand they are considered puppies until 2, so that's what we sign up.


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## Marcus

Loukia said:


> And I understand they are considered puppies until 2, so that's what we sign up.


Something I didn't read before I got him. Sigh.

I just wanted a fluffy mid sized dog who will love me


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## Loukia

Marcus said:


> Something I didn't read before I got him. Sigh.
> 
> I just wanted a fluffy mid sized dog who will love me


LOL! Yes, I knew going into this that Comet would be a puppy until 2, but I didn't really realize that meant eating everything in sight until 2. That's one area he's still doing terrible. Just last night I was in the kitchen (assuming he was sleeping in the hall). All of a sudden I got that "it's way too quiet in here" feeling. I went into the hall to find that my kids had left the upstairs gate open. I looked through the whole house and still couldn't find him. Then I realized my son had left the door to his play room area open and I found him in there quietly eating small, green, plastic army men! :doh:


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## Rkaymay

I love this thread because it makes me appreciate how far Z has come. I'm very thankful for my mom, who has experience training dogs - she watched Zelda for about 2 days and told me to stop throwing parties for her. It was a huge help on walks and during training.

Z also responds well to the harsh "knock it off". Usually how it happens is we'll be wrestling (we've now reached a point where we can mostly wrestle without biting), or she'll want to wrestle. She occasionally gets too worked up, though, and starts getting rough (with her paws or her mouth). If I say "Zelda, knock it off!" in a harsh, stern voice, she immediately backs up, looks at me with super sad eyes (she has it down), then lays down with a biiiig loud sigh (her life is so hard).


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## Anele

Marcus said:


> I just wanted a fluffy mid sized dog who will love me


Hahahaha!!!! Me, too! WHAT HAPPENED?? 

Other people have these calm puppies around kids who are so gentle . . .and mine? NOPE. Other people have puppies who lie quietly with household pets. Mine? NOPE.

A local woman on FB got a new puppy, and someone said her kids wanted to walk the puppy. Sounds so innocent, doesn't it? Kids walking a puppy? In my case, I'd worry about the puppy leaving bruises! Ugh. 

On the plus side, still no biting while on leash! No more incidents in the yard-- yet. (Hasn't been a week yet and it's usually once a week.) BUT, he's now gotten mouthy again indoors. Not biting, but mouthy.


----------



## Anele

Rkaymay said:


> I love this thread because it makes me appreciate how far Z has come. I'm very thankful for my mom, who has experience training dogs - she watched Zelda for about 2 days and told me to stop throwing parties for her. It was a huge help on walks and during training.
> 
> Z also responds well to the harsh "knock it off". Usually how it happens is we'll be wrestling (we've now reached a point where we can mostly wrestle without biting), or she'll want to wrestle. She occasionally gets too worked up, though, and starts getting rough (with her paws or her mouth). If I say "Zelda, knock it off!" in a harsh, stern voice, she immediately backs up, looks at me with super sad eyes (she has it down), then lays down with a biiiig loud sigh (her life is so hard).


I am so happy to keep hearing your updates and everyone else who has improvement. Light at the end of the tunnel!


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## Anele

Loukia said:


> I would definitely agree with that! Comet has a very soft mouth in general. Even when he's wound up, he still hasn't broken skin. However, when he's wound up he bites much harder than when he's playing in a semi-calm way. If he gets keyed up and tries to bite the leash or chase and bite (both unacceptable and things we've been working on eliminating through avoidance and conditioning), he bites much harder... still relatively soft compared to other dogs, but harder than his typical mouthing bites for sure.


I know we are supposed to work on NO biting at all, but I would love it if I could get a reliable way for a soft mouth while aroused.


----------



## Rundlemtn

Anele said:


> Hahahaha!!!! Me, too! WHAT HAPPENED??
> 
> Other people have these calm puppies around kids who are so gentle . . .and mine? NOPE. Other people have puppies who lie quietly with household pets. Mine? NOPE.
> 
> A local woman on FB got a new puppy, and someone said her kids wanted to walk the puppy. Sounds so innocent, doesn't it? Kids walking a puppy? In my case, I'd worry about the puppy leaving bruises! Ugh.
> 
> On the plus side, still no biting while on leash! No more incidents in the yard-- yet. (Hasn't been a week yet and it's usually once a week.) BUT, he's now gotten mouthy again indoors. Not biting, but mouthy.


Sounds like he's doing better! Whatever you're doing must be working


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## lloyddobler

Lloyd is doing less biting of my arms and now goes right for my butt and clothes or humps vs biting. This is quite an adventure. He's waking me up before dawn and I know being sleep deprived is not helping me manage this situation. I feel like im in boot camp. Ha!


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## Cpc1972

Anele said:


> Hahahaha!!!! Me, too! WHAT HAPPENED??
> 
> Other people have these calm puppies around kids who are so gentle . . .and mine? NOPE. Other people have puppies who lie quietly with household pets. Mine? NOPE.
> 
> A local woman on FB got a new puppy, and someone said her kids wanted to walk the puppy. Sounds so innocent, doesn't it? Kids walking a puppy? In my case, I'd worry about the puppy leaving bruises! Ugh.
> 
> On the plus side, still no biting while on leash! No more incidents in the yard-- yet. (Hasn't been a week yet and it's usually once a week.) BUT, he's now gotten mouthy again indoors. Not biting, but mouthy.


I don't know what a calm puppy is around kids lol. You should see the bruises on the top of my legs where she has jumped on me. It's in the same place on both legs. She is getting to heavy.


----------



## Anele

3Pebs3 said:


> Sounds like he's doing better! Whatever you're doing must be working


I don't think so! We never go more than a week. 

My 13 y.o. was with Kevin alone in our gated L.R. She is fine with him-- I trust her with him more than I trust more adults. However, unbeknownst to me, while I was outside, she told my 5 y.o. to come into the L.R. to pick up something that she left there. UGH UGH UGH. WHY? There is where I realize my 13 y.o. is 13! Anyway-- so my 5 y.o. apparently went in, and Kevin immediately started jumping and some humping (no biting, thank goodness). My 5 y.o. is very calm so she didn't trigger this by being loud or anything. I told her (which I have before!) that the younger kids are NEVER supposed to be in there without me-- ever. I reminded them, too, so that they can feel free to ignore her if this ever happens again.

Kevin was not wearing a collar, so my 13 y.o. had to get him off and he bit her arms, leaving scratches that may turn into bruises.

I am really upset. If someone tells me this is normal, he'll grow out of it within a few years, then fine-- I can deal with it. But if not? Then what? It feels so ridiculous to be living this way.


http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Anele

lloyddobler said:


> Lloyd is doing less biting of my arms and now goes right for my butt and clothes or humps vs biting. This is quite an adventure. He's waking me up before dawn and I know being sleep deprived is not helping me manage this situation. I feel like im in boot camp. Ha!


Noooooo! Ugh. Do you think there is a female out there he is smelling? I guess the no biting is an improvement?? And haha about boot camp! 



Cpc1972 said:


> I don't know what a calm puppy is around kids lol. You should see the bruises on the top of my legs where she has jumped on me. It's in the same place on both legs. She is getting to heavy.


How is Chloe with your niece and nephew? She is fine with your nephew who is 6, right? (I am sure you are watching, but overall-- it's safe.) I can't even have my dog around my 10 y.o. without constant monitoring.


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## Rkaymay

Anele, I'm wondering if maybe your hesitance at allowing your kids freedom with him is making the biting of them worse. Kids often develop their own language with dogs, and I've found they are more resilient and less afraid of being bit. I don't know your kids' personalities, but within my family, the kids have no problem telling the dogs to knock it off (and they usually listen). Of course, I'm not saying uninhibited supervision, but maybe relax a little bit? At this point, your kids must have an excellent knowledge of dog behavior.  Your judgement regarding your kids is better than mine, of course. I can just feel your tension through the screen and it makes my heart ache a bit for you.


----------



## Cpc1972

Anele said:


> Noooooo! Ugh. Do you think there is a female out there he is smelling? I guess the no biting is an improvement?? And haha about boot camp!
> 
> 
> 
> How is Chloe with your niece and nephew? She is fine with your nephew who is 6, right? (I am sure you are watching, but overall-- it's safe.) I can't even have my dog around my 10 y.o. without constant monitoring.


At six he is allowed to play with supervision. My three yearold niece doesn't really want to play but she is to small anyway. She hates dog slober. Lol. She will pet her and isn't scared of her. But she has to be on a leash. The play with my nephew is stopped once she starts jumping and getting to rough.


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## Cpc1972

It will get better. The kids are playing in the LR right now and she is leashed. A lot of times the kids are behind gates in the playroom. She even leaves bruises on my mom by jumping and biting her. I have bruises on both legs from her jumping up on me. 

I agree relax a little and take a deep breath.


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## Cpc1972

I forgot to mention one other thing. Not that we let it happen. But if a instance happens where she jumps up on one of the kids it's not the end of the world. She pulls my nieces hair and she cries for a few minutes or she scratches my nephews back. She isn't agressive it's just a excited puppy. We do everything to prevent it but it happens once in awhile. Five minutes later my niece is petting her and my nephew wants to play with her. Unless your pup is being agressive in a mean matter when something happens your kids will be fine. Don't sweat it to much.


----------



## Chritty

It's interesting the difference in kids reactions to puppies. 

Our 4 year old niece is very wary of Millie. Absolutely hates her jumping up, has cried on occasion around her, calls her a bad puppy. Our 2 year old niece loves Millie!

My mate's 4 year old daughter has grown up with a Staffie so when she saw Millie she was head first into her and had absolutely no fear what so ever, just so enveloped with joy to play with her!! No amount of jumps or licks were enough for her!!


----------



## Cpc1972

Chritty said:


> It's interesting the difference in kids reactions to puppies.
> 
> Our 4 year old niece is very wary of Millie. Absolutely hates her jumping up, has cried on occasion around her, calls her a bad puppy. Our 2 year old niece loves Millie!
> 
> My mate's 4 year old daughter has grown up with a Staffie so when she saw Millie she was head first into her and had absolutely no fear what so ever, just so enveloped with joy to play with her!! No amount of jumps or licks were enough for her!!



That is so true. My niece cant stand dog slober. My sister said one night she woke up screaming. Here 100 pound lab was in her bed with her. That was it. My niece wont let her dogs in her room. While that same dog sleeps with my nephew every night. The thing that we worry the most with chloe is she will jump and rip my nieces earrings out.


----------



## Anele

Rkaymay said:


> Anele, I'm wondering if maybe your hesitance at allowing your kids freedom with him is making the biting of them worse.


 Well-- it's tricky! I've posted online about a dog we had to rehome in the fall. It was a Wheaten who had fear aggression and bit my daughter (3) on the cheek when resource guarding. I still miss that dog-- she was a really special girl-- but I could never forgive myself if anything happened to my kids. This is why I am trying to be careful. Careful in the way my kids interact so that they are safe in the moment, and so that my dog has continual positive experiences with children so that he does not feel fear, frustration, etc. with them.

But, I do need to figure out a way to slowly get him used to being around the younger kids w/o arousal. 



Cpc1972 said:


> It will get better. The kids are playing in the LR right now and she is leashed. A lot of times the kids are behind gates in the playroom. She even leaves bruises on my mom by jumping and biting her. I have bruises on both legs from her jumping up on me.
> 
> I agree relax a little and take a deep breath.


 I need to relax, but it's not easy! This is what we do a lot, too-- dog is on the leash (though I can let him be loose sometimes, but the lead is on as long as I am vigilant) or the kids are separated by the gate. 



Cpc1972 said:


> I forgot to mention one other thing. Not that we let it happen. But if a instance happens where she jumps up on one of the kids it's not the end of the world.


 Well, my 5 y.o. is afraid of dogs! She has come a long way and is now (even after today's jumping) seeking out Kevin more-- but I want both of them to have good experiences with each other. This evening she pet him with the gate dividing them. That is an ideal set up to me, because she is protected and he can easily move away if he's done with petting. He stayed for a long time, enjoying being pet by her, which is very different than how he used to be!



Chritty said:


> It's interesting the difference in kids reactions to puppies.
> 
> Our 4 year old niece is very wary of Millie. Absolutely hates her jumping up, has cried on occasion around her, calls her a bad puppy. Our 2 year old niece loves Millie!
> 
> My mate's 4 year old daughter has grown up with a Staffie so when she saw Millie she was head first into her and had absolutely no fear what so ever, just so enveloped with joy to play with her!! No amount of jumps or licks were enough for her!!


 They are so different! My 3 y.o. is fearless when it comes to dogs, which is not a good thing! 

HOw is Millie with children?

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Anele

More to read!

If you do a search for "arousal + dog" (I always keep my search terms pretty open) online (not just the GRF) then you will find a LOT of information. 

Here are some: https://paws4udogs.wordpress.com/2012/01/06/too-much-of-a-good-thing/

Deterioration of a Shelter Dog

High Drive vs. Arousal

https://thelightofdog.com/when-a-dogs-arousal-is-high-its-hard-to-make-good-choices/

Understanding Dog Arousal Problems

Understanding Threshold Levels in Dogs


http://www.apdasports.com/Behavioral-Therapy.html

Lowering Arousal

The common theme is:
(1) Don't put your dog in situations where they can practice this behavior and be in the aroused state (which lasts for a long time)
(2) Practice capturing calmness
(3) Exercise your dog the right way


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## _bella_

One thing I have discovered with Bella (with the help of our trainer) some toys are absolute no no's when it comes to preventing over arousal. When I first got her I had a large variety of toys and now that she's 14 weeks old she's only got a very small amount of toy or playthings freely available to her. Chewing toys and toys that are large and sturdy are OK. Floppy, squeeky, noisy toys are all going to get her over excited, with the squeeky toys being the worst! Her whelping toy is unfortunately one of them. It was a small floppy stuffed horse we brought when we visited her when she was 3 weeks old. Well, she gets that thing in her mouth and shakes and shakes and shakes it, to the point where I have to take it away. So, no toys that she tends to shake. I do play tug with her, but I've had to teach her to do it on my terms, and not hers. She has to sit, then fetch, then she's allowed to tug, and then release. I had to play tug with her a LONG time today after she got her little pony and shook her little brain into crazy town.


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## Anele

_bella_ said:


> One thing I have discovered with Bella (with the help of our trainer) some toys are absolute no no's when it comes to preventing over arousal.


Thank you! What does she do when overly aroused?

Update from me-- sigh. sigh. sigh.

So, the Freedom harness isn't magic, though it is pretty magical in most ways! 

Went on a walk-- I went by distance (not far) instead of time. Mistake. 

Anyway, on the walk, the following things happened:
(1) Saw woman on our side, he went into an automatic down (!) on the grass as she passed by, I fed him treats.
(2) Got near a house with a very loud barking dog.
(3) Right as we were near this house, a family with a calm dog passed us-- they on the sidewalk, us on the grass.
(4) He did a little jumping to get to the woman in the family (who wanted to pet him, but I said no), but then calmed down.
(5) Walked a little bit more.
(6) Sat to cross the street.
(7) Crossed the street (quiet, no cars) and then in the street, got the look.
(8) Jumped and bit.

So, I could see things building but, other than sitting WHILE the events were happening, and at the street-- I should have been doing more calming.

Anyway, I tried the treat scatter, didn't work (he went right back to me). Instead, I closed my eyes and was perfectly still (on the ground-- I'd been trying to hold him with the collar, harness). I prefer sitting because then he's not jumping! The closing my eyes was to help me relax. Then I could feel that he wasn't biting hard-- just mouthing mostly (though I do have scratches). As soon as I did that (was still and relaxed) he stopped within seconds.

Of course, when I told my DH, he asked why I wasn't "swatting him with a newspaper."

I can't own a dog if it means I have to use physical corrections. I'm not judging anyone who uses them-- it's just not "me."

I'm off to get my watch battery replaced so I can be really strict about keeping walks short.


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## Chritty

Anele said:


> I can't own a dog if it means I have to use physical corrections. I'm not judging anyone who uses them-- it's just not "me."



The bad behavior won't last forever. I'm pretty sure you'll have a really great period coming up with him. It'll be on and off until he's 2 or 3. You seem to have a lot of patience though so I'm sure you'll be fine.


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## Rkaymay

I understand - when I was 4, my cat was sleeping and I yelled to wake him up. I earned myself 28 stitches in my face for my trouble. My parents were a bit wary with animals after that, but I wasn't phased in the least (oh to be 4 and naive again...)


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## lloyddobler

Ok folks! How is everyone doing? Any updates? Good or bad? I feel like I've made progress with the jumping and biting. It still happens, but like I have mentioned, I've figure out a way to manage it more. Now he seems to jump and hump more than bite, although he did bite me in the butt this morning. I sought out the advice of a balanced trainer, who recommended a pronged collar for training him so that he can quickly understand that the behavior is not acceptable. I'm still getting my head around it and will likely try it. I do feel guilty at the thought of it, but would rather use that than have a dog that I don't want to be around. Lord knows I've tried everything else. She had one that she used and he walked like a dream for the 15 or so minutes we were walking him. He did not seem stressed or uncomfortable. I actually stopped and bought one on the way home, but it was not quite big enough so I had to order some extra links so that it will fit properly. In the meantime, I have started using a martingale collar, which he seems to respond positively to as well. I'm only on day 3 with it, but the times that he has started to do the unwanted behaviors is definitely decreasing. I feel like I'm on the right path as convoluted and expensive as it has been. 

I wanted to check in and see if anyone on here as used a gentle leader collar who have experienced this issue? The trainer I met with this weekend said they are the worst thing ever due the risk of injury. However, I talked with a friend of mine who used to train dogs and she knows the person who invented them has said she would recommend me using one before introducing the pronged collar. She said she has used a pronged collar in the past and doesn't oppose them, but prefers the head collar if it is an option. So much conflicting info, and simply not enough time to sort through it all is how I feel right now!

In addition to the jumping and biting, Lloyd in his 9th month has started a plethora of other issues. First is that he is now demand barking up a storm. He's waking me up by barking at me when the sun comes up at 4:45 - 5:00 am every morning. I live in an apartment so I can't ignore it to extinguish the behavior like I would want to. Also, he will come up to me when I'm sitting on the soft and sit down directly in front me and look at me and bark. If I don't respond, he will start nipping at my hands and legs and pulling at my clothes. 

Third, he's now a humping machine. Every night around 7 or 8 pm, he will hump me any time I'm up and walking around. Sometimes he will do it during the day, but more commonly at sundown.

Forth, and most disturbing, I've noticed that he is VERY reactive to Boxers. We've had 3 run-ins in the last 3 weeks or so where he will lunge, growl and go wild at the sight of a boxer (3 different dogs, not the same one). One time, he was off leash at the park with his golden retriever friend when someone walked their boxer in on leash. Lloyd ran up to the dog and they started biting and lunging and it was aggressive on both sides. It is strange because he has not reacted to any other dogs this way, only boxers. The boxer on leash in the park was especially scary. The dog's owed was yelling at me to get my $%%&# dog off of hers, which I was trying to do but couldn't get a hold of his collar. It was scary and frustrating and makes me think I'm in way over my head.

I have moments where I feel I've got this and I can handle it... we're on the right path. Then I have days like today where I just want to cry! I do love him, but why does he test me the way he does? I mean, I would gladly take a dog that likes to chew shoes and furniture over a dog that is constantly focusing their unwanted behavior directly at me.

Looking back, I have wondered many times what I did wrong. I got him at 8 weeks and started him in puppy kindergarden and am now in our 4th obedience class together. He's been extremely well socialized and has been around friendly dogs and people. The only negative thing that I could see scared him was some encounters with two boxer/pit bull mixes at work who growl/lunge/bark at him when we walk by their owners desk. They have never made contact with him, but having to walk by them makes him very nervous.

I'm not looking for suggestions, just venting. I'm sure tomorrow I'll have a better outlook, but can't help to going back to that feeling I had when I first started researching the biting issue... I feel like I've failed my dog in some way. I feel like I should have been more assertive and confident in my interactions when he first started to act out verses going into my bedroom. Essentially, I think I taught him he can control me and my space. 

While I have no seen two different trainers and have some wonderful ideas what to do, I think I need to work with someone one on one for a period of time to help me with all of these issues on a weekly basis for a while to build my confidence back up. 

I haven't done that yet because it would run me about $140/hour and I've already spent a lot! But, it may be what I need to do in order to really begin enjoying my boy and understanding him better.

Thanks for allowing me to vent. I knew this spot was safe to do so and not be judged.


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## momo_

*Lloyd's mum*, I'm interested to know when the demand barking and humping started? Is this all pretty recent, around the 8-9 month old mark, or did it start earlier? 

Sounds like you're going through a lot and you're so dedicated to him. Hang in there, best of luck to you and everyone else in this thread. I'm following!

Anele, sorry I haven't read all the pages of the thread so I'm not caught up on what's been happening, but what happened to the Easy Walk harness? I was going to get the Freedom harness too but decided on the Walk Your Dog With Love one instead. It only arrived today, will test it out tomorrow. How is Kevin with collar/leash walking? Last time we talked I remember he was so focused on you and was a joy on the leash! Well with Sunny, we've only had walks on his harness. I use treats every walk. He doesn't pull often, but he is always ahead. On the route back home, he's mostly by my side only because he's tired! I've tried walking with no harness and good lord he's a shocker. At agility class during the walk around the field warm up, he was pulling so much I felt like my hands would blister. So embarrassing. I know I should've been practising loose-leash walking all this time but it stresses me out so much and I hate seeing and hearing him choke himself! I might have to resort to a prong collar one day, but for now I'm pretty content with just using a harness.. :/


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## lloyddobler

momo_ said:


> *Lloyd's mum*, I'm interested to know when the demand barking and humping started? Is this all pretty recent, around the 8-9 month old mark, or did it start earlier?


Hi Momo - Thank you for the kind words! I would say both behaviors (humping and barking) started at the same time.... At this time he also started marking (just outdoors, thankfully) at the 7-8 month mark. He's 9 months old today and I would say it has been happening for about 5-6 weeks or so. 

I have talked to friends who said their dog humped them and they put a stop to it by being very forceful. I really struggle with that approach. While it may get your dog to stop, I don't want my dog to be reactive and afraid of me. 

I think I need to go back to school and get my PhD in Animal Behavior. Seriously!


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## momo_

lloyddobler said:


> Hi Momo - Thank you for the kind words! I would say both behaviors (humping and barking) started at the same time.... At this time he also started marking (just outdoors, thankfully) at the 7-8 month mark. He's 9 months old today and I would say it has been happening for about 5-6 weeks or so.
> 
> I have talked to friends who said their dog humped them and they put a stop to it by being very forceful. I really struggle with that approach. While it may get your dog to stop, I don't want my dog to be reactive and afraid of me.
> 
> I think I need to go back to school and get my PhD in Animal Behavior. Seriously!


Thanks for letting me know. I need all the mental preparation I can get. I've got another month or so before I expect to see these behaviours :uhoh:
What do you do about marking outdoors? Does he do it excessively on walks? 

I couldn't tolerate humping on people. My parents would be outraged. What have you done in the past to get him to stop what he's doing? 
Once Sunny starts humping, I think I'll be using a "corrector" spray that emits a loud CHHT sound. I used it months ago during the bad times and whether it's coincidental or not, it stopped unwanted behaviours with a spray on 1-2 separate occasions.


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## Harleysmum

lloyddobler said:


> ..
> 
> 
> Forth, and most disturbing, I've noticed that he is VERY reactive to Boxers. We've had 3 run-ins in the last 3 weeks or so where he will lunge, growl and go wild at the sight of a boxer (3 different dogs, not the same one). One time, he was off leash at the park with his golden retriever friend when someone walked their boxer in on leash. Lloyd ran up to the dog and they started biting and lunging and it was aggressive on both sides. It is strange because he has not reacted to any other dogs this way, only boxers. The boxer on leash in the park was especially scary. The dog's owed was yelling at me to get my $%%&# dog off of hers, which I was trying to do but couldn't get a hold of his collar. It was scary and frustrating and makes me think I'm in way over my head.
> 
> 
> The only negative thing that I could see scared him was some encounters with two boxer/pit bull mixes at work who growl/lunge/bark at him when we walk by their owners desk. They have never made contact with him, but having to walk by them makes him very nervous.
> 
> .


Do you think he has become reactive to boxers because of the two at work? It must be quite difficult for him to deal with this on a regular basis if they are so antagonistic towards him and if it is being reinforced regularly. My own dog had an aggressive bulldog rush out at him on two separate occasions. He became quite nervous about going down the street where that dog lived and why should that be surprising? It is great that many places allow people to take their dogs to work with them but unfortunately it doesn't take much in the way of negative experience to set up a reaction. Socialisation is great but the experiences need to be positive. I quite understand why you are feeling overwhelmed by it all. Let's face it we got our dogs to hopefully enrich our lives - same with our children - sigh!


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## Loukia

lloyddobler said:


> I wanted to check in and see if anyone on here as used a gentle leader collar who have experienced this issue? The trainer I met with this weekend said they are the worst thing ever due the risk of injury. However, I talked with a friend of mine who used to train dogs and she knows the person who invented them has said she would recommend me using one before introducing the pronged collar. She said she has used a pronged collar in the past and doesn't oppose them, but prefers the head collar if it is an option. So much conflicting info, and simply not enough time to sort through it all is how I feel right now!


Hi Everyone! I've been MIA a bit. I've been checking in here and there but haven't had much time to respond. 

Lloyd's Mom, you may not want to hear this, but my overall experience with the Gentle Leader wasn't good. I wouldn't recommend it based on my experience, but I do know that there are those that like it. Like other things (prong collars, as you mention), it's a management tool. However, if a dog is wearing a martingale collar or prong collar or various other management tools, and if the dog is following directions, the dog is oblivious to the tool. If a dog is wearing a Gentle Leader and following directions, the dog still knows the tool is in place and still has restricted movement. I initially thought it was wonderful because it seemed to work like magic when I first used it. However, over time, it got to the point where Comet would only follow commands and listen with the Gentle Leader on. If it was off, all best were off and he was a wild man. I also noticed over time that he acted sad when it was on and lost the bounce in his step. Finally, what concerned me most was that even when fit properly, he couldn't fully open his mouth to pant. As the weather got hotter I noticed he seemed to be uncomfortable wearing it in the heat. And then I started reading posts about the dangers to their nose, etc. Over all, as far as management tools go, I don't think the Gentle Leader was a good one because it seemed to really break Comet's spirit. The minute I changed trainers and took it off, he seemed happy to train and the bounce in his step returned.

Comet is doing well lately. I've kept up on the weekly lessons with the trainer but since my kids have been out of school for the past two weeks my ability to spend time training Comet has significantly decreased. In addition, my ability to take him for a 2+ mile walk on a whim has also significantly decreased. So, lately we've been doing a lot of recall practice in the back yard and we've been solidifying Comet's fetch. (Thank goodness for my son's lacrosse stick or I would have shoulder problems by now.) Comet has gotten really good and comes back every time he gets the ball. I think he finally knows the word "fetch". It's taken awhile since our game goes something like this: "Ready?", "fetch", "Come!", "drop", "Ready?"... Lots of communicating, lots of commands, but I think he's finally got it down. I'm still using a 60 foot leash just in case he decides to run the other way. Having short bursts of fetch, randomly throughout the day, seems to keep him well enough exercised for now. I'm still taking him on walks when I can, it's just not daily since our summer schedule has settled in. Plus, we've had so much rain and hot, humid weather, I'm not sure he could take a 2+ mile walk these days.

His mouthing continues to get better daily. And I've seen a continued improvement each week with his behavior overall. I think it's a combination of his age and the training. I know he's in the midst of teenager behavior, but things are so much better than they were, I'm not sure I'd really notice the defiance of a teen compared to the biting wild man at 7 months old. 

Our one issue that still hasn't resolved is Comet's need to chew/eat non-food items things. Bitter apple helps on some things. He can't have the run of the house AT ALL because he'll eat anything and everything (army men, Barbies, toilet paper, furniture, etc.). And it's not for a lack of having appropriate things to chew. This is nothing new... it's not as though he's transitioned from us to items, he's always been like this. He's just such a mouthy dog. I can't complain given that his mouthing on us has improved. I'm hoping that over time this too will improve.


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## lloyddobler

Harleysmum said:


> Do you think he has become reactive to boxers because of the two at work? It must be quite difficult for him to deal with this on a regular basis if they are so antagonistic towards him and if it is being reinforced regularly. My own dog had an aggressive bulldog rush out at him on two separate occasions. He became quite nervous about going down the street where that dog lived and why should that be surprising? It is great that many places allow people to take their dogs to work with them but unfortunately it doesn't take much in the way of negative experience to set up a reaction. Socialisation is great but the experiences need to be positive. I quite understand why you are feeling overwhelmed by it all. Let's face it we got our dogs to hopefully enrich our lives - same with our children - sigh!


Yes, I definitely believe his reaction towards Boxers has everything to do with these two dogs at work. They are a pair, so I think it really scared him to have two dogs running up and growling/barking, showing teeth. There was a baby gate at the end of the isle, so they didn't even get close to him, but it scared me to see them charging toward us. Luckily, I can avoid them and walk around on the other side of the building, which is what I have been doing. We never walked by them again after that first time. However, we ran into them when we were getting off the elevator a couple of times and there was nothing I could do to avoid them there. I really think if the owner lost control of those dogs, they would hurt another dog. I've been contemplating making a complaint about them as I don't think they are the types of dogs that should be allowed in the office. I'm sure they are great dogs with people and their owner. Anyway.... 

To the poster who uses the Stop That! compressed air stuff.... the trainer I met with the other day suggested I used that to stop his barking and humping. Knowing my dog, I am sure he will react the opposite of 99% of the dogs and it may make him bark more. I did order some off of Amazon and will try it a couple of times to see how he responds. She also suggested using a water bottle. However, my guys will go right up to sprinkers and let it spray him in his face and loves it.... so, I am doubtful that would produce the desired effect as well. 

Another day, more teenage problems. I have a feeling I will look back on this stuff and laugh one day. Hopefully, with the help of all of these posts I can write a book that is as successful and Marley and Me!


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## lloyddobler

momo_ said:


> Thanks for letting me know. I need all the mental preparation I can get. I've got another month or so before I expect to see these behaviours :uhoh:
> What do you do about marking outdoors? Does he do it excessively on walks?
> 
> I couldn't tolerate humping on people. My parents would be outraged. What have you done in the past to get him to stop what he's doing?
> Once Sunny starts humping, I think I'll be using a "corrector" spray that emits a loud CHHT sound. I used it months ago during the bad times and whether it's coincidental or not, it stopped unwanted behaviours with a spray on 1-2 separate occasions.


Momo- I forgot to mention that Lloyd only has humped me. He's never humped another dog or human, ever. So, clearly that says something about how he sees me and I need to figure out how to work on that. I've tried leaving the room immediately and pushing him off and saying no. Both stop the behavior at the time, but it has not extinguished the problem. My vet and trainer both suggested that I may with to consider neutering him earlier than I had planned. The vet said every dog's body responds differently to all the hormones and it seems Lloyd is not having a great response. I'm so envious of people who can say their dogs never humped them or showed aggressive behaviors. SO ENVIOUS! Because I'm exhausted! However, I know neutered would not be a guarantee of any behavior change, so I'm going to try to wait at least 12 -15 months and hope with the training that it will get better, not worse.

As far as the marking goes, he will probably mark just a two or three times during our walks. It is not excessive at all and is always on plants or grass. It's really been the least of my worries given all of his other behavioral issues. I've noticed he tends to do it after we pass another dog.


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## rabernet

Man I wish I worked in an office where I could bring my dog to work! I keep reading so many members here who seem to have that option. 

That said, why are the boxers allowed to continue to come to work if they are openly aggressive and barking in the office?


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## momo_

Lloyd's mom: It's probably better that he only humps you, easier for you to anticipate and correct!


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## lloyddobler

True! At least the humping doesn't cause bruises! My trainer says this is normal teenage behavior but I think my boy is taking it to a whole new level. We were playing with a dog he's familiar with yesterday and after about 20 minutes he was going to start humping her... Thankfully I was paying close attention and **** it down nefore it started. This was the first time he demonstrated this behavior to another dog. 

The next 3-6 months can't go fast enough! I am working on ensuring he is not reinforced for this behavior, but I hope neutering will also curb this a bit! Teenage hormones!!!! Ugh. :smile:


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## Loukia

Lloyd's Mom, I would hope neutering might help the behavior, but it may not eliminate it. Comet is neutered and he still randomly tries to hump things/new people. I don't let him, but I can see him start to try. It's pretty rare though, so perhaps if he wasn't neutered it would be WAY worse. I will say that my neighbor's almost 2 year old dog tries to mark other dogs and people. So it could be worse! I'll take humping over getting peed on! Before I realized he tried to mark dogs and people he peed on Comet and get my shoes in the process.


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## Anele

We are having a bad week. As soon as I posted successes, everything went downhill.

Bit me on both walks yesterday-- not for long (each time lasted seconds) but biting nonetheless. The only reason he stopped was because I got him to stop-- he didn't stop on his own. He jumped/bit my husband when he was going off to work. He bit my 13 y.o. daughter at night in the yard. Just now he bit my daughter when she was bouncing on the sofa-- bit her on her back, partly on her neck (one bite that I can see there). (I was unaware my daughter broke the rules by going in with him alone.) 

Biting = he either leaves no marks or he leaves scratches at this point.

I am feel pretty sick about all of this. He requires SO MUCH attention. As in, I now keep logs about what he does, what training/exercise, we do, etc. He wants to be busy whenever he is awake-- and my trainer said he should be up for 10 hours a day! And, then there is the constant balancing of giving him exercise without overstimulating him.

We worked on the relaxation protocol yesterday for the first time in the yard. We got through 1-5 without issue and then made it to half of 6. He got up when I opened the gate of the yard. So he CAN be calm, but he goes from calm to crazy in seconds.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni

Anele...sending you a hug. I know you've thought of everything, but maybe a basket muzzle for a while might give you a break?


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## Anele

Noreaster said:


> Anele...sending you a hug. I know you've thought of everything, but maybe a basket muzzle for a while might give you a break?


 I have considered one. My trainer recommended that I think about one awhile ago-- said every dog should be conditioned to be OK wearing them.

I guess it's time. I am so sad, so envious of people who can just enjoy their dogs with normal puppy problems. 

From my very loose research, dogs like this always seem to have a tendency to be like this, even when they age. It hopefully becomes MUCH less common when they get older . . .but the underlying issue is there.

I wish my breeder shared my philosophy on dog rearing. It would help get the point across that perhaps the two dogs he used should not be bred together again. Instead, he sees this as a teenage dog problem and that my dog should learn to be put in his place. Now, maybe my dog is the ONLY one with this issue, but I think an open and honest discussion about it (with all of the littermate owners) would be valuable . . .just to be sure.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni

I'm just thinking that at some point, your peace of mind has to come first and it would also stop him from continuing to engrain the behavior? No one could have done more...it's just a reality that dogs come with software that we have no control over...it's nothing you did or didn't do.

I know it's easy for me to say, but it's my firm belief that this will someday just be a distant memory. They are changing all the time, even when we're too close to see it.

Have another hug...


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## Rumple’s Mom

Yeah, here's a hug from me, that sounds so stressful.  (((HUGS)))


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## Anele

Noreaster said:


> I'm just thinking that at some point, your peace of mind has to come first and it would also stop him from continuing to engrain the behavior? No one could have done more...it's just a reality that dogs come with software that we have no control over...it's nothing you did or didn't do.
> 
> I know it's easy for me to say, but it's my firm belief that this will someday just be a distant memory. They are changing all the time, even when we're too close to see it.
> 
> Have another hug...


Thank you for the continued hugs, Noreaster and Rumple's Mom. I know some people have said their dogs have never/would never have this issue, so it's easy for me to think it's something I have been doing wrong. I figure that even though he has come with the software, I should have been able to reprogram him by now! I just wish he hadn't come with this software . . .

I am ordering the muzzle now-- the most comfortable one I can find, including a treat hole! JAFCO Comfortable Dog Muzzle - Dog Training Supply


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## Chritty

Anele;5778889I wish my breeder shared my philosophy on dog rearing.
Instead said:


> I think the risk of dogs continuing this behaviour into adulthood comes from them not learning where their place is. Reading what a lot of people say on this forum, chances are that a golden will grow out of it.
> 
> You may be the only one in the litter with this behaviour but you're not the only one with the behaviour on the forums. As others have said, you are doing an extreme amount for your dog. But for the extreme behaviour I do feel you may be using the wrong method.


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## Chritty

http://clickandtreat.com/wordpress/?p=978


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## Anele

Chritty said:


> I think the risk of dogs continuing this behaviour into adulthood comes from them not learning where their place is. Reading what a lot of people say on this forum, chances are that a golden will grow out of it.
> 
> You may be the only one in the litter with this behaviour but you're not the only one with the behaviour on the forums. As others have said, you are doing an extreme amount for your dog. But for the extreme behaviour I do feel you may be using the wrong method.


I agree that he has to learn his place-- boundaries are key-- it's just that we differ in how we think we should approach it. For me, as annoying and VERY frustrating as this issue is, it isn't aggression and I will do anything and everything to prevent that. We had to rehome a dog in the fall (I wrote about it here) because she had fear aggression. It was a terrible situation because I bonded to the dog very quickly, as did my children. Her owner used Cesar Milan methods. I didn't know much about training at all back then (not that I do now) so I didn't question; I just admired how well-behaved the dog was-- initially.

One of the things she (the owner) told me before I met the dog was that she did not have any resource guarding issues, and that she made sure she didn't. Well, the owner was WRONG. WRONG. The dog absolutely had guarding issues, which is why she (gently, thank g**) bit my daughter on the cheek when the dog was in possession of a toy. I'm pretty sure the owner "made sure" she didn't have guarding issues by taking away her food and toys! 

I know better, now-- I would never let my DD hug a dog with a toy again-- though I am 99.999999 sure that my dog would never do that at this point in THAT situation. (Maybe if old and grumpy.) 

Again-- if it comes to me having to use physical corrections in any way to own this particular dog, then I won't be able to keep him. I know you do not advocate Cesar Milan and the physical corrections are only part of the big picture in your training, but it's just not a path I want to take. 

On another note, I take it things are on the up and up with Millie?


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## Chritty

Things have been great with Millie. 

Since the morning I posted those "before and after" videos she hasn't had to be given the correction that has eliminated "jumpy bitey". 

I haven't been using the slip collar at all either because of a few factors. The weather at the moment sux so our backyard is a mud pit. I'm trying to preserve our grass a little during winter so I'm not working her in the backyard and I don't want to put her out into the big wide world under-rehearsed. Also it gets dark real quick when I get home so I just want to have a fun walk with her. She walks well on the gentle leader front clip and neither of us are stressed out so it can wait.

Just for clarity, I'm not a big fan of CM but I don't write off all of his methodology.


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## Chritty

I'm hesitant to ask because it's not a nice thought but would there be a line in the sand for Kevin's behaviour that would mean you would have to rehome him?


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## lloyddobler

Anele - I'm so sorry things have regressed. As someone who struggles with this issue, I completely understand how disheartening it is. It seems these things go in phases... Lloyd was a holy terror last week and I was wondering how the heck I was going to continue on with all of his antics. I was desperate for relief and was at my wits end. Then this week he has been like a different dog! I say that not to rub in that my pup is having a good week but to reassure you that it likely will get better very soon.

All the people who have PM'd me on here who have gone through this saw relief after getting through the worst of the teenage phase which seems to be around one year. Since your pup started early, maybe he will end early too!?!?!?!?

While I HATE using corrections, I will say that it made a huge difference to my pup. I had one training session with a trainer who showed me how to use a pronged collar.... ever since then he has NOT bit me while on leash. He does jump and try to hump and has grabbed my clothes a few different times, but nothing like he was doing before. 

I have not used the pronged collar since that training session.... so, he seemed to get the message immediately.

While I would never advocate for you to do something you are uncomfortable with, there may be a very minimal type of correction you could try that would send the message loud and clear to him that would help you have to avoid re-homing your boy. 

Another non-physical correction my trainer suggested for the jumping, biting and demand barking was using a can of compressed air to startle the pup. I bought one from Amazon called Stop That! that has a pheromone in the spray that also works to calm them. My pup seems to have a witching hour around 8 - 9 pm where he will hump me and even come up and grab my pant-legs if I'm sitting down. I used the spray one time last night and it worked. He sat down and looked at me, like what just happened? So far tonight, he has not attempted the same thing.... So, maybe using a pronged collar isn't something you'll try but maybe the spray or something like that would help him understand the jumping, biting is NOT what you want? The trainer that suggested the spray also seemed to think that while there would be no harm in the protocol for relaxation, she said it won't cure the types of behavioral issues we are seeing. I know there are a million different opinions, but I'm leaning toward believing that every dog is different and our pups aren't going get the message through positive reinforcement alone.

Please know, i understand you have children and that their safety has to be your #1 priority. I don't have anyone to worry about but myself, so I understand my situation is a lot different. I would never judge you if you decide this pup isn't a fit for your family. I really hope you don't have to make that decision, as I know it would be very difficult. 

We're here for you and hope some of these suggestions can help.


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## Anele

Chritty said:


> Things have been great with Millie.
> 
> Since the morning I posted those "before and after" videos she hasn't had to be given the correction that has eliminated "jumpy bitey".


This is such great news-- with just one correction and now things are trouble-free? That is fantastic. This paves the way for many, many more happy experiences to come. 



Chritty said:


> I'm hesitant to ask because it's not a nice thought but would there be a line in the sand for Kevin's behaviour that would mean you would have to rehome him?


 I think it's a very fair question-- no need to hesitate. I have thought about this a lot, actually, because our challenges are not what I thought they would be. At this point, the line would be if (1) any professional were concerned about aggression and/or (2) if his behavior worsened to the point where, even if it was not stemming from aggression, it was causing injury. I suppose if he is 2 and I still have to be on Very High Alert with him around my children, then at that point I might look for an adult-only home, but we'll see.

As of now, no one has identified any aggression. In the case of the previous dog, I consulted several professionals and every single one of them said-- yes-- aggression. I kept asking different ones in hopes of a different answer, but they all confirmed that my children were unsafe. The dog went to a home where she will never have access to young children.

I was looking back in my notes (AKA emails of panic to my trainer) and it's been more than 2 weeks since he has bruised anyone . . .so that's a plus, I suppose. He is doing more mouthing than biting. The times he has bitten/mouthed have been much shorter in duration. AND, I just realized that things got worse when I started following what the new trainer said. I'm not saying she was wrong, but I have to revisit everything. 



lloyddobler said:


> Anele - I'm so sorry things have regressed. As someone who struggles with this issue, I completely understand how disheartening it is. It seems these things go in phases... Lloyd was a holy terror last week and I was wondering how the heck I was going to continue on with all of his antics. I was desperate for relief and was at my wits end. Then this week he has been like a different dog! I say that not to rub in that my pup is having a good week but to reassure you that it likely will get better very soon.


Yes, it is really discouraging! I know that we take steps backwards and forwards-- but if we know that we are at least headed in the right direction-- and that this "dance" will eventually end in a bow and applause, we can stick it out! I am SO glad you have also had such success with minimal corrections. It never feels like any of you are rubbing it in with good news; on the contrary, I am so pleased! I would not wish this issue on anyone and if I see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel, even if it's not mine, I'll enjoy the view.

At the very beginning of this thread, I suggested we could post cute pics of our pups, so if you have some handy, bring them on! I need to get out the camera more often, but here is one of Kevin.


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## Cpc1972

Ah finally we get a cute pic of kevin.

Anele although chloe isnt as bad as your pup rest assured my mom looks like she has leaukemia. She has bruises on the back of her arms and on one leg. Also even though we have had two good days with the kids I am sure if they were playing and jumping on the couch at the time of her being off leash she probably would do the same thing.


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## lloyddobler

[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]Anele - Our pups look ALOT alike!


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## Cpc1972

There is always hope.


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## Anele

Cpc1972 said:


> Ah finally we get a cute pic of kevin.
> 
> Anele although chloe isnt as bad as your pup rest assured my mom looks like she has leaukemia. She has bruises on the back of her arms and on one leg. Also even though we have had two good days with the kids I am sure if they were playing and jumping on the couch at the time of her being off leash she probably would do the same thing.


I am so glad for your two days! Is the worst of the bruising over for your mom? We have had so many good days-- a week without any jumping/biting at all, over 2 weeks without bruises, but then the bad ones feel like square 1!

You know, I used to work a lot with Kevin on getting him used to the kids' antics but I really have slacked. I see how much we've progressed in the areas of Kongs and tug toys being cues to sit, having impulse control-- tomorrow we are going to start diligent work on the kids being the cues. I think he is ready. My trainer (the original one) has been telling me to do this for awhile so I need to make this a priority vs. just managing.


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## Anele

Cpc1972 said:


> There is always hope.


SO sweet! I love it. Chloe is beautiful.

Tonight my oldest daughter brought Kevin upstairs to say goodnight to the younger kids (on leash!) and she said he rolled over on his back for everyone to pet him. Are we seeing glimpses of a very good future? I think so . . .you're right, there is always hope.

Lloyd is such a handsome, handsome young man. I can't believe that face could ever cause a lick of trouble! AND, are you telling me he doesn't chew up that bed? That is incredible. I am considering selling a kidney to fund a Kuranda bed because Kevin loves fabric.


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## Loukia

Anele, I'm so sorry you're having to go through this. You're such a dedicated owner to Kevin and he's so lucky to have you. Hang in there... like Critty, I really do think things will improve over time, even if it takes awhile. At some point I read a series of posts on here from someone who was having a heck of a time with a puppy biting her. I feel like I remember her writing that it took the puppy a year or two to move past it. It may just take Kevin time to mellow out and become an adult. It's a long time to wait, but you've worked so hard and I'm sure with age things will settle. It sounds like the muzzle is the best option for now. You need peace of mind and you need a break. You've mentioned that Kevin isn't aggressive, he's overexcited. Overexcited is certainly better than mean - excitement lessons with age.

When I took Comet to his lesson this week his trainer again was very excited because Comet prances and stays very focused. I don't know why it took me so long to ask, but I finally asked him why Comet prances around. "Don't all dogs do this?" So he goes on to tell me (in so many words... hopefully I understood what he was saying correctly... forgive me, dog gurus, if I got this wrong) that there are plenty of dogs that you have to teach to prance. And a dog that does it well naturally is the result of a dog who is very focused and very driven. He likened it to an excited dog that's trying not to explode, so he slows himself down, tries to maintain self control and in doing so, he looks like a prancing pony. So I laughed and said, "so all of the naughty things Comet does, it's actually indicative of a dog that will prance well?" And he basically said, yes. You may have the next Obedience Champion on your hands, Anele! 

One thing I've noticed with Comet is that when I work with him on obedience, it absolutely exhausts him. He sleeps way harder and way longer than he would if I walked him 3 miles. I know we've talked about so many of your different approaches. I know Kevin doesn't do well if he's over exercised. Have you tried really mentally tiring him out? Does it help him at all or do you end up with an overtired mouthy puppy? 

Comet's biting has all but stopped. I would say it's a combination of 3 things, a different approach in training, natural maturity and modified behaviors/environment. From a training standpoint, he's listening so well that I can break through the "crazy" and tell him to "sit" and he will. He is a more mellow dog than he was at 7 months (but I don't know that he'll ever be "mellow"). In terms of environment, I've had to make some changes and give up my dream that Comet will be meandering about the house any time soon. This is a result of his desire to eat non-food and chew on anything and everything. He knows "leave-it" and he does... if I'm there to monitor him. If I'm not, he slinks away and goes back for it when I'm not looking. He is still so mouthy, he'll eat anything he can (to the point of putting himself in danger). So he doesn't have run of the house and I don't know when he will, but I'm confident that we'll get there one day. I've had to let my disappointment go on that one. He's back to field trips to certain areas and he doesn't seem to mind. I've also modified Comet's ability to play outside. If I let Comet out in the backyard with a long lead, and if my kids were to run excitedly next to him, he would definitely bite their clothes or simply plow right into them. Instead of focusing on breaking Comet of this, for now, we just removed this challenge. I'm working on various obedience moves to help with this (like down in place from far away), but until I get there, I've eliminated the opportunity. If my kids are playing outside, they have to remain calm and walk if they are going to be near Comet on his long line. If they want to run and go wild, Comet either comes inside or I switch him to the 6 foot leash. Interestingly enough, when he's on the 6 foot leash, he makes absolutely no attempt to chase them and often just lies down and enjoys the show or sits and wags his tail. 

I certainly agree with Chritty that people fall into a "one-size-fits-all" approach. But, I'm not talking about you or any particular method. This was the downfall of the last trainer I worked with. When Comet wasn't improving and when others in the class were, she took the "stay with it" approach instead of assessing my situation and Comet's individual personality and motivators. I think she got hung up on "this is the right way" and "Comet is a Golden Retriever". Certain trainers have a certain method and in my opinion, a really good trainer has a huge toolbox of methods and motivators that they utilize and adapt based on the dog's personality and temperament. 

Just like parenthood, we all take different paths and we have to take the path that feels right. I think in some arenas the "correction" talk can be misunderstood and viewed as something that it's not. The physical correction is such a small part of the training method, but it doesn't really matter if it's an approach that doesn't feel right to you. 

I remember back when my son wouldn't sleep through the night. I was a first time parent and all of our friends and family were telling me it was because I needed to let him cry it out. They told me to set a timer, told me to let him cry until morning and the advice went on and on. My Mom's advice was "do what feels right, you're the mom." When I went to the pediatrician she told me it was basically my fault too and that he was crying for me because I trained him to. I came home determined to let him cry it out and rid myself of his wake-ups. He cried hard for 15 minutes and then threw up all over himself. The result was my son crying harder, me crying for feeling guilty and a mess of vomit to clean up. From that day on I decided I needed to do my research and then trust myself to make the choice that works for me. What I later learned was that my son is a terrible sleeper (even at 9) and my daughter was a great sleeper on Day 1 and still is at 6. I can't take credit for either. 

It's a shame I didn't listen to my inner voice with Comet. I felt like his previous trainers weren't the best fit but I convinced myself that they had such a good reputation and that I didn't know how to train a puppy, so I needed to trust them? It's taken me until now (Comet will be a year old in mid-July) to have confidence in my dog parenting and to listen to myself. Anele, do what feels right, you're the mom... and my guess is that a lot of your challenges with Kevin are simply Kevin (not you at all). Are there things you can do to make them better or worse, certainly, but some of it may just require working within the confines of Kevin's personality and waiting for him to mature. Hang in there!


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## Cpc1972

Anele said:


> SO sweet! I love it. Chloe is beautiful.
> 
> Tonight my oldest daughter brought Kevin upstairs to say goodnight to the younger kids (on leash!) and she said he rolled over on his back for everyone to pet him. Are we seeing glimpses of a very good future? I think so . . .you're right, there is always hope.
> 
> Lloyd is such a handsome, handsome young man. I can't believe that face could ever cause a lick of trouble! AND, are you telling me he doesn't chew up that bed? That is incredible. I am considering selling a kidney to fund a Kuranda bed because Kevin loves fabric.


Chloe is starting to roll on her back sometimes. Tonight in training classes a lady approached who owns a golden the same age. Chloe immediately jumped on her and started biting her arms. The lady said hers does the same thing. The bad thing is the trainer saw it.

Is kevin neutered. I know they say it doesnt help but I think in your situation I would do it.


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## Marcus

Anele said:


> the line would be if (1) any professional were concerned about aggression


I honesty don't think it's aggression and would seriously question any trainer who says it is.



Anele said:


> (2) if his behavior worsened to the point where, even if it was not stemming from aggression, it was causing injury.


All dogs cause injury. 
Ben, in the 12 months I've had him has:
Almost broken my nose at various stages. (He has a hard head) 
He has also scratched my arms and legs and face which all bruised and bloodied, he's made my wife cry by scratching her, nipping and he lunged at her face last nigh while she was eating some chocolate... 

He doesn't know and isn't doing that on purpose. 

He just doesn't have any hands...



Anele said:


> I suppose if he is 2 and I still have to be on Very High Alert with him around my children, then at that point I might look for an adult-only home, but we'll see.


Also on the plus side you're kids will also be 2 years older, and be in a better position to handle themselves 



Anele said:


> I was looking back in my notes (AKA emails of panic to my trainer) and it's been more than 2 weeks since he has bruised anyone . . .so that's a plus, I suppose. He is doing more mouthing than biting. The times he has bitten/mouthed have been much shorter in duration. AND, I just realized that things got worse when I started following what the new trainer said. I'm not saying she was wrong, but I have to revisit everything.


I think you're equating your experience with your previous dog to Kevin. I think once you stop doing that and treat each instance as a brand new experience thing will get better...

And they will get better


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## lloyddobler

Anele said:


> Lloyd is such a handsome, handsome young man. I can't believe that face could ever cause a lick of trouble! AND, are you telling me he doesn't chew up that bed? That is incredible. I am considering selling a kidney to fund a Kuranda bed because Kevin loves fabric.


Anele - I think our pups look so much alike. Angelic looks, devil personality! Lloyd doesn't chew the bed in the pictures, but he did start dragging it around and it looked like he was going to start humping, so I took it away. He had another mat for his crate and managed to poke a hole in it and pull much of the stuffing out. So, that has been taken away too. I think I'll refrain from any beds until he's through the teenage phase!


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## Cpc1972

I forgot to mention one other thing. I am not living in your house but this sounds like typical puppy stuff. You do your best to manage and train until thry mature. Just be super careful that you dont go so far that it makes him develop exactly what you dont want. I am not a fan of muzzles if it is just being mouthy and no marks are left. He is just a excited puppy you have to manage. At least once a day my mom goes outside to play with chloe and ends up coming in and leaving her outside because of the jumping up and biting.


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## Cpc1972

Anele said:


> I am so glad for your two days! Is the worst of the bruising over for your mom? We have had so many good days-- a week without any jumping/biting at all, over 2 weeks without bruises, but then the bad ones feel like square 1!
> 
> You know, I used to work a lot with Kevin on getting him used to the kids' antics but I really have slacked. I see how much we've progressed in the areas of Kongs and tug toys being cues to sit, having impulse control-- tomorrow we are going to start diligent work on the kids being the cues. I think he is ready. My trainer (the original one) has been telling me to do this for awhile so I need to make this a priority vs. just managing.


She still has them. They have been there a few days. We still havent broke her of jumping on me and biting my arms and nose. Its not hard and doesnt leave any marks. Its getting better as she is responding more to off and her name being called. Sounds like you have a plan with the kids. We just watched close the last two days and let them play with her for a few. Chloe is staying at their house this weekend so she will get lots of practice.


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## _bella_

I can see a light at the end of the tunnel. :yipee:
Bella lost her first tooth yesterday. When it happened she was playing with a friends 9 month old bulldog pup and I saw blood and thought, no more puppy play for you two. She was very very cranky, and I didn't think it was her first tooth coming out, but today I was playing tug with her and saw some blood on her toy and checked further to discover one top front gone, the other hanging on by a thread and bleeding slightly. It came off on my finger when I wiggled it and now her crank is back on. She has been very mouthy the past five days or so...
I won't be sad to be rid of the furry crocodile. But I will miss how cute baby teeth are!:bawling:


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## Chritty

Anele said:


> This is such great news-- with just one correction and now things are trouble-free? That is fantastic. This paves the way for many, many more happy experiences to come.


It wasn't only one application of the correction. Whilst the slip works great for loose leash and such it was not communicating to her that we wanted her to stop "jumpy bitey". Our trainer offered us a different correction technique after seeing first hand just how bad it was. Once that correction was applied Millie stopped what she was doing, adopted submissive body language and crawled up to us (not running running away in fear as some may have you believe). Gary Wilkes calls this the "Suck up and make right" reflex of a pack animal that understands that it needs to keep it's place in the pack that looks after it. 

This new correction was applied about 5 times during that training session which was a Monday afternoon. I had to use it again on the following Wednesday morning as she jumped at Wifey and then that was it. Behaviour inhibited!


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## Sophiered

Hello, I would like to pass on my experience on stoping a pup from biting. This has worked twice for me. When my puppy of around 12 weeks old was causing me so much stress with biting every time she came near me. I was seriously considering having to give her up, and you have no idea that is the very last thing I ever thought I would do. She was my third Golden her name was Sophie, she went blind when she was 3 years of age, the others were not a problem other than maybe for a week or so after they came to join our family.. 
Well I decided I had to distract her when she started to bite. So I started reciting the nursery rhyme "This Little Piggy Went to Market", I would take a paw in my hand and as soon as she started to bite I would start my nursery rhyme over again back at the first claw.

As I recited I would touch or twiddle one claw and then move on to the next. As she bit me, I would start again. It only took around reciting the words around 3 or 4 times for her to start watching and listening. She was curious.
I kept going around 10 minutes or so, going from one front foot to the other then over again.. Every evening as I sat down to watch TV, she would come up to me and go to bite, and I would start "This Little Piggy". It was around the third or fourth night when I noticed she watched my fingers and listened to what I was saying.. I found that by starting over again when she bit me, she seemed to wait and expect the right words.. Before the week ended she was no longer biting but listening with interest..
I kept it up as long as I needed, but found she had stopped biting and just came up to have me say the rhyme.

Well we have had Harry now for 11 weeks, he was also biting so I thought I would try the same thing. I found I only had to say the rhyme for around 3 nights, now he isn't biting at all..

I could add more to this story, but I am tired and it's getting late. But I swear it works so please try it if your pup is biting. 

The funny thing is, that when she was around 6 years old, she had long since stopped biting so other than to entertain her I rarely said the rhyme to her.. Well one day she was walking through our lounge when an add on TV was saying that same nursery rhyme. Sophie my very smart blind dog, stopped mid way and turned to look at the TV, she had remembered her old nursery rhyme This Little Piggy, it was being used in a shoe commercial.

So I swear it works, try it on your biting puppy and let me know how it goes for you.


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## Loukia

Since we're sharing recent pics of our puppies, I figured I would post a recent pic of Comet. I haven't posted a picture in awhile.


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## Rkaymay

Since you guys twisted my arm... Here's a recent Zelda picture.


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## quilter

Sophiered said:


> Well I decided I had to distract her when she started to bite. So I started reciting the nursery rhyme "This Little Piggy Went to Market", I would take a paw in my hand and as soon as she started to bite I would start my nursery rhyme over again back at the first claw.


This is very interesting. You were sort of teaching her a relaxation game. If she settled and let you do the rhyme, then her reward was that you let her go. Over time, the rhyme became the cue to relax.

I had a collie and he loved to have his paws rubbed. It was relaxing for him. It's sort of counterintuitive, since so many dogs don't like people to touch their paws. I tried working on it with Casper. He doesn't care if I touch his paws, but he'd rather get pets on the head, shoulders, and back than the feet.


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## Sophiered

Hi Quilter,

I think you could use any part of the body. They love to be touched, so maybe even massaging their neck or back as you say the Nursery Rhyme. The idea is to get their attention and then as you say that calms them down, so a puppy who just has to sink their teeth into you soon learns that if they do that then you stop the rhyme and start again until they focus on what your saying. Maybe massage the front legs if they don't like paws touched.


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## rabernet

OT - can I just say I'm completely jealous of the full beautiful tails on all of your pups?


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## quilter

rabernet said:


> OT - can I just say I'm completely jealous of the full beautiful tails on all of your pups?


They are lovely, but don't be jealous.  They pick up pick up plant debris like a vacuum and the dogs hate having them brushed! Casper will let me touch and brush any part except his tail and his tail is the part that needs the most brushing. Arg.


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## Stephanya

I've just read through the entire thread here, and wanted to see if anybody has any particular advice for Seattle area trainers. I'm in the Green Lake neighborhood. I noticed that lloyddobbler is in Seattle, and tried to send a private message, but as I'm new to the forum, it won't allow me to PM anybody until I've posted 15 times in the forums! Grrr! I need help for my 5 month old girl, Zoe. She's great in the house (mostly, except for mouthiness which is pretty easy to control compared to the on-leash arousal biting). Any tips for local help would be great. I'm wondering what worked best for everyone on this thread. We use a metal chain attached to a leash to prevent the leash biting (works great!) but Zoe still jumps and bites me on walks when she gets frustrated or overly excited. Thanks in advance, guys!


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## lloyddobler

Stephanya said:


> I've just read through the entire thread here, and wanted to see if anybody has any particular advice for Seattle area trainers. I'm in the Green Lake neighborhood. I noticed that lloyddobbler is in Seattle, and tried to send a private message, but as I'm new to the forum, it won't allow me to PM anybody until I've posted 15 times in the forums! Grrr! I need help for my 5 month old girl, Zoe. She's great in the house (mostly, except for mouthiness which is pretty easy to control compared to the on-leash arousal biting). Any tips for local help would be great. I'm wondering what worked best for everyone on this thread. We use a metal chain attached to a leash to prevent the leash biting (works great!) but Zoe still jumps and bites me on walks when she gets frustrated or overly excited. Thanks in advance, guys!


Hi Stephanya - I've tried some training with two different trainers and did not see results. However, I was referred by Ahimsa traininer (where we go to obedience) to try Shades Dog Training. Someone else on this forum recommended her to me as well. Dog Training - Seattle / Puget Sound -- Shade's Dog Training

The reason I didn't go to her initially is she was very busy and wasn't able to get me in for about 6 weeks or so. I was so desperate for help that I decided I couldn't wait and sought out my own help. I learned that pure positive reinforcement was not going to cut it for my boy as he didn't respond despite my best efforts. 

Strangely enough, his bitey ways went by the wayside when he got close to 9 months old. He was the worst from 6 - 9 months. He hasn't tried jumping and biting at me for a solid two weeks now. However, he still will pull on the leash from time to time, but that is as far as it goes.

Around this same time, he began being more aggressive on and off leash. It started with just boxers and now he is reactive to nearly all big dogs. He growls, sometimes barks, and will sometimes lunge. I'm now hesitant to take him places due to the way he reacts. He never used to be this way at all and was very friendly to the point of being submissive. 

I recently had his thyroid checked and the results were completely abnormal. They were not consistent with hypothyroid, but with secondary hypothyroidism which means that there is something causing the pituitary to not function properly. Most commonly a tumor. So, we are now going through more testing to determine what is going on with this.

Sorry, that is more than you probably wanted to know. However, I guess my point is I'm not sure if he would have outgrown the jumping and biting behavior on his own or if it has something to do with the fact he isn't feeling well now or if he has just redirected his frustration towards other dogs verses at me. Based on all my research and everything I read about this, it seems most dogs outgrow it around 10 - 12 months.

Please feel free to reach out if you have any other questions.

Thanks!


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## Stephanya

*llyoddobler*--Thanks so much for the tips and trainer recommendation! I also go to ahimsa, and have an appointment with Amber for a private training session, but it's not until August (which couldn't come soon enough at this point!). I am totally open to taking a balanced training approach with Zoe (read: open to a correction collar) but I don't know how to use it to address the problem. And I do hope your dog's condition isn't serious. Hopefully you can get to the bottom of it; health scares are terrifying.

*Critty*, if you're still following this thread, do you have any suggestions on how to use the correction collar for jumpy/bitey behavior? Also, did you use the basic metal collar or the prong collar? I don't want to screw up before seeing a trainer, but I would love some help between now and my August training appointment. Thanks all for your help!


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## quilter

The Seattle Humane Society also has excellent classes. I have taken several classes over the years. It's sort of interesting. The beginner classes are full of little dogs. Little dogs are popular now and the shelters have a lot of them. People that adopt get one free training class. As you move into the higher-level classes, the dogs get bigger. In our Control Unleashed class, we had one toy dog and the rest were the larger working breeds.


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## Chritty

Hey Stephanya,

I'm definitely still following. I'm not comfortable in giving direction on how to apply a choke/pinch correction. You really do need to have a professional set of eyes guiding you to not hurt your dog or you relationship with them. 

We used a leather slip collar which has been good for loose leash walking but that style of correction did not work for jumpy bitey for us. We had to work with our trainer to find a correction that would work for that particular problem. That was the advantage of having someone who had over 30 years experience and specialised in aggressive dogs. As Loukia has said, it's not a one size fits all thing.


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## Garou

Sophiered, that is what we did with our dog! When he was a puppy and drowsing off to sleep, we'd rub his tummy and sing the "BINGO" song. Now, whenever we sing it and start rubbing his chest, he'll roll over and relax as long as we keep singing. It's a great verbal cue for a "captured" behavior!

And here's the requisite Crosby puppy photo - 11 months, and the crazy biting has STOPPED! (And on the few occasions when he starts to get amped up, I stand straight, cross my arms and say "NO BITE" in my firm voice. He shakes himself in a "reset," then sits, and then we go do something else.)


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## Cpc1972

Just when you think the biting and the rough play is getting better with chloe she has a night like tonight. She would not quit. Finally after two timeouts she settled. But as I am typing this I can here her upstairs barking so my guess is her butt will be sleeping in the kitchen tonight. Lol. I really hope she ends this phase soon. Nothing seems to work with her. She is getting so good with the kids now. Then tonight that bratty teenager comes out. Lol


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## Stephanya

quiliter, thank you for the tip! I will check into it!


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## Stephanya

*Chritty* thank you for your reply. I'm hoping to find a "balanced" trainer in my area who can help me learn to properly correct Zoe's behavior. A challenge might be the fact that she pretty much ONLY does her jumpy/bitey thing when she is over-aroused and/or frustrated on our walks, so we will have to figure out how we can work on correction in the home environment, where she rarely exhibits the behavior.


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## Stephanya

A question for the group: has anyone done research to figure out if the jumpy/bitey behavior is developmental? I guess what I'm asking is this: is it something our dogs eventually and reliably outgrow?


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## Cpc1972

Stephanya said:


> A question for the group: has anyone done research to figure out if the jumpy/bitey behavior is developmental? I guess what I'm asking is this: is it something our dogs eventually and reliably outgrow?


Yes with consistent training they will probably outgrow it. Sometimes though I wonder. It just takes patience.


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## skyqueen

Hi there I too am struggling with this subject. It is the weirdest thing I can teach her all kinds of stuff like sit stay down and she gets it really quick but when it comes to that biting stuff and I have worked on that since day one that I got her at 8 weeks there has been NO learning on that subject it is just all management. Like when she is biting put in crate. It seems like after making observation if she is fed, pooped, well rested-the bites don't occur but if any of these things are out of alignment she bites the crap out of ya. What a process.
I have to say "These are times that try mens souls" but I am determined to get through it
although I have wondered a few times what I did to myself. Ha!


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## lloyddobler

Quick update from my camp! Lloyd was terrible from about 5-6 months old until just before 9 months. His behavior just stopped. I spent $$$$$ on trainers and different types of harnesses, spent endless hours fretting over the behavior and searching for solutions. I can't attribute his stopping to anything I did or did not do. I think he just grew up of it. One caveat in my case is that at the same time he stopped jumping and biting at me, he also seemed to turn dog aggressive. He began barking, lunging and growling at other dogs and even got into a dog fight at the off leash park. Since that time (it's been a busy month!) I have learned my pup is hypothyroid and is now on meds. We're on day 6 of the meds and he is acting more like his old self and seems less reactive to dogs. I'm not sure if his jumping and biting behavior was due to the fact he may have had a thyroid issues and was not feeling well, but just wanted to share my story in case it helps anyone else.


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## Tayla's Mom

Stephanya said:


> A question for the group: has anyone done research to figure out if the jumpy/bitey behavior is developmental? I guess what I'm asking is this: is it something our dogs eventually and reliably outgrow?


Tayla pretty much outgrew it by the time she was a year old. At almost 4 she still has her moments, but they are when she is frustrated. If we are in dog class and I have a treat in my hand, but I'm thinking about my next move or how to do something and I'm not paying attention and she thinks she should get the treat she will get jumpy and mouthy. I give her a firm sit and wait until she complies and then she can have the treat. It doesn't happen much so yes, they will usually grow out of it for the most part.


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## quilter

Tayla's Mom said:


> Tayla pretty much outgrew it by the time she was a year old. At almost 4 she still has her moments, but they are when she is frustrated. If we are in dog class and I have a treat in my hand, but I'm thinking about my next move or how to do something and I'm not paying attention and she thinks she should get the treat she will get jumpy and mouthy. I give her a firm sit and wait until she complies and then she can have the treat. It doesn't happen much so yes, they will usually grow out of it for the most part.


Casper will do the same thing. I had someone video tape one of our rally runs. While I think I am paying attention to him the whole time, I can see that sometimes I don't. Generally, he'll wander to the end of his leash to sniff or try to visit. Sometimes, he'll try to jump to get the treats. 

He thought we were still training and I didn't think we were still training. Or, I figured he should just do nothing until I decided what I wanted next. Some dogs just lay on the floor waiting for the next thing. Not Casper. He's a busy guy.

Now, I'm much more clear. If we are on a course and I need to figure out the next sign, I give him a clear Stay command. He knows to sit there until I give the next command instead of wandering off. When we are doing training, I have two cues, Ready (open the treat bag) and All Done (close the treat bag). Between Ready and All Done, he can expect to get treats. When there's no treat to be had, he knows he can rest. Since he's always willing to work for a treat, those 1-hour dog classes were pretty exhausting, because he thought he was "on" the whole time. This is one of the first things we learned in Control Unleashed class. (And my private trainer taught me that, too.)


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## Loukia

Hi All, I recently posted the below update on another discussion but since I've discussed my experience with Comet in this discussion as well, I figured I would post the update here too. I've made a few slight adjustments since my update was in direct response a posting from Lloyd's Mom (but the overall content is the same here and in that discussion).

*Comet Update*: 

Comet and I have been through our share of challenges with biting/excitement behavior. I should note that his behavior has never broken my skin or been aggressive, but it could easily be mistaken for aggressive behavior to the untrained eye. He would bite, growl, jump, etc. but it was similar to the way you would see two dogs excitedly play. Comet's behavior wasn't angry or hostile - but it wasn't acceptable regardless. I have two small children and wanted to ensure what I was dealing with was bratty behavior and not aggression. I had an expert (his current trainer) assess his behavior and he assure me that Comet was in no way being aggressive. It was Comet's bratty, pushy attempt at getting me to play and to demand attention. 

One thing I've learned in working with Comet's trainer is that he is a very very high drive dog. He isn't a field Golden but he probably would have made a WONDERFUL bird dog. Unfortunately for me, hunting with Comet really doesn't work into my lifestyle with young kids at home. However, I've really amped up the obedience training and I take him to obedient lessons for competitive obedience (even though I don't really have an interest in competing with him at this time). Practicing his focused heal, turns, and various other training tricks are all activities I can randomly do with him in the yard and around the house. He loves learning new tricks and it's fun for me too. I can even "give him work to do" when I'm making dinner. I have him follow me around, heel, down-stay, touch, pick up toys, etc. while I get things done. I reward him with ice cubes when we aren't officially training and very high value rewards when we are. Spontaneous training sessions give Comet mental exercise when he might otherwise be sitting around feeling bored.

When I was first working with Comet's current trainer, he had me track when Comet would usually demand attention with mouthy behavior, leash biting, etc. For him, it was always at the very end of a walk when we would walk into my yard, first thing in the morning during his morning potty (before any exercise), or late at night either in my kitchen or during the last potty time outside. It honestly seemed like he would go from relaxed to wild and demanding in seconds. 

In working with Comet's trainer, we determined that it was generally pent up mental energy and/or mental/physical exhaustion. At the end of his walks, it was generally the excitement of being done mixed with feeling tired from the walk and training. In the morning or in my kitchen it was often him feeling like he had pent up mental energy that he would try to exert by demanding play. At late at night it was usually on nights I didn't put him to bed on time. He definitely did it for attention and to get me to play with him... but it obviously wasn't what I wanted and it left us both feeling frustrated.

A combination of things worked for Comet:
1. Increasing mental stimulation and the right balance of exercise. I walk him about 2.5 miles a day and he gets 1-2 fetch sessions. Increasing physical activity too much made things worse, but increasing training and mental activity helped tremendously.
2. Immediately removing contact. If Comet was exhibiting this behavior outside, I would tighten up on the leash (leaving him almost no room to jump or mouth) and silently walk in and put him right in his cage and leave the room. Or if he started at night, I would put him in his cage and walk away. He quickly learned that his attempts at play got him nowhere and resulted in the exact opposite of what he really wanted.
3. A collar pop. This isn't the answer for all dogs and I do understand this can make the issue worse for some dogs. But in working with Comet's trainer, this method was utilized. A really good trainer comes into play because he was able to work through various training tools and assess what was the best method for Comet. For Comet, he needed a breakthrough, or physical shout of sorts, to reset himself and quickly brake his high drive personality. He would get in a mood and was so focused on his own actions that he really didn't hear. The collar pop was just enough to break through and quickly get his attention. It usually made him sit and wait for a command. 

At this point, the behavior isn't 100% gone, but it's 99% gone. It's underlying but I've learned to manage it, so I know his tendency is to go wild at the very end of a walk, and I'll get him to focus before we get into my yard and have him heel as we walk to the house. I'll actually make him train through the usual naughty period, until we can get inside and then he's past it. I also know that Comet needs to go to bed at the same time every night. He thrives on a very consistent sleep schedule (which isn't fun on a Saturday morning but it makes every day easier). He also gets the message very quickly now if he doesn't something I don't like and I give him a quick collar pop. He rarely ever needs a collar pop any more and responds very well to a verbal cue of "let's go" or "eh eh". If I say "let's go" he almost jumps into focused training mode. If I say "eh eh" he often puts himself in a sit because he knows it always results in praise. If Comet gets pushy now by barking or if he mouths me, I stop all interaction and leave (or bring him inside, without any interaction and put him in his crate). It's gotten to the point now where if he mouths me and I stand up, he'll generally put himself in a sit and then I'll tell him to go get his toy. If Comet does mouth me now, it's very gentle and very infrequent (maybe once a week or less instead of multiple times daily). I feel like most of the behavior has been eliminated because his mental needs are being met and he has learned that behaving a certain way gets him what he wants and mouthing me or demanding play gets him nowhere (and if anything results in him feeling alone). 

Since getting Comet (he is just over a year now), I did find out that one of Comet's littermates was given back to the breeder because he was too aggressive and the family was worried about the dog around their young children. The breeder took the dog back, assessed him and agreed he wasn't a good fit for that family. She determined that he wasn't aggressive, but he was acting out and needed more than the family could provide. The dog is now working as a service dog, so he was and is an amazing dog, he just needed a bigger outlet for his intelligence and drive.

I share all of this because I'm hoping it gives anyone who is reading this discussion threat something to look forward to. I'm also hoping it helps people realize just how important it is to get help and find the right kind of help. If you fear that you have an aggressive dog on your hands, get your dog assessed by an expert who is well trained and experienced in handling challenging dogs. The challenges I was seeing in Comet were redirected into amazing qualities and behaviors, but only because I found a very experienced trainer who could help redirect them in ways that best fit Comet's motivation and needs. Comet was acting the way, not because he was under exercised, but instead because he's high drive, he's smart, I was accidentally allowing/encouraging the behavior and because Comet needed more work to do and more mental stimulation. 

My trainer likes to joke that I've got a Malinois trapped in a Golden body (definitely not what I signed up for but I wouldn't change it now). Comet is my first puppy and I would do many things differently if I could start over, but I've learned a lot, I've done my best, I kept seeking help, and I finally (at around the 8/9 month mark... I forget exactly when now) I found the right fit to help me redirect Comet into the dog he is today. Comet's high drive personality isn't what I thought I was getting when I brought him home, but with expert help, he is a wonderful dog and a great addition to our family. At just over a year, he continues to grow and learn every day. Probably because of my lack of dog experience and because of the training I signed up for initially, it took me several months of frustration and worry before I sought the right help. Fortunately however, when I did find the right help, his current trainer was able to correctly assess the situation as pushy/bratty behavior and he was also able to identify Comet's need for a higher level of mental stimulation. We've definitely had our bumps in the road, but it's turned out to be a really amazing experience for both of us and we have a wonderful bond as a result.


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## Stephanya

Guys, I need a little moral support. Zoe has been an arousal biter for about 3ish months, and she has gotten about 75-90% better overall. However...today was horrible. It was like we were at square one. I took her on a different route and with a friend, instead of with our family in the neighborhood. There were, admittedly, many triggers: car traffic, lake ducks, other people (lots), walking dogs, etc. She went ballistic. She jumped and bit on me. She bit on the leash. I didn't have treats, which I usually use to distract with "find it", and my usual trick of tying her to a tree to settle down would settle her down for the moment, but as soon as I untied her, she would go at me again. It was awful and embarrassing. She wouldn't listen to my "no" (which she usually respects) and it was like all our hard work the last few months was gone. I was (and am) heartbroken about it. It feels like we made so much forward progress, and suddenly I am back to square one. 

One of my greatest fears is that I will never be able to have someone watch her for me while we go on vacation. I can't imagine how we will deal with arousal biting when someone else is walking her in an unfamiliar environment. This episode really sealed that thinking for me. I am so bummed. Please tell me that this backtracking is normal, or if it's not, please help with tools if you have any. Obviously next time I will remember my treats, but I want to be able to walk Zoe in new places without dealing with this insanity. I have never once wanted to give up on her, but today I felt helpless and hopeless. Ugh. I love her dearly, but this side of her behavior was not one I was prepared to deal with. Any moral support would be much appreciated, as well as words of wisdom from you who have been through the trenches already. Sigh....


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## Cpc1972

I am sure it will get better. Chloe does it every once in awhile but nothing like that. There doesn't see to be anything that sets her off. Usually my dad is with my mom and he will take the leash and it will stop. But she isn't close to what your describing.


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## BriGuy

It will get better Stephanya. My first golden was like this when she was around 7 or 8 months old. I think she was just over aroused and did not know how to express it other than jumping and biting at the leash or my sleeves. I starting working on some off-switch games with her, using tug toys. This kind of taught her to get excited and then let her practice settling back down. 

I happily realized after a year or so old that she hadn't done the leash biting recently, and she grew into the calmest dog that anyone could walk.

Are you in any classes with her? If you are spinning your wheels, then maybe a couple of sessions with a good trainer would help. Hang in there!


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## Anele

Stephanya, I am so sorry. I have been told countless times (even via PM) that people's dogs had the same issue as mine but that mine was worse. Never a happy message to receive when one is already feeling discouraged and I am never sure what the point of it was.

Your dog doesn't sound worse than mine, if that helps. 

What I did was take a break from walking. Sounds so crazy but I just couldn't deal with it anymore. I started getting a lot of anxiety just thinking about taking him out because we had many incidents as you described. So, my daughter and I decided not to do it anymore. My dog was fine. I did not see an increase in unwanted behavior on the whole. In fact, he became even calmer at home.

If you are ok with your usual walks, don't push it. Just keep going with them and, for now, say no to new paths. If you decide to try a new place, don't go with anyone and make it a training walk so that you can focus and make it short.

Now, fast forward to our walks these days. We still don't take them often and when we do they are short. We used to use food. When we tried not to in the past, our dog would start to jump and mouth almost right away. But, now he has been reset and can walk well (he will pull on occasion) using no food at all. (Food is a cue that he is training and training can frustrate him.) I always carry a tug toy. If he gets mouthy, the toy goes in his mouth. Sometimes it's not a choice-- I make him take it. 

I had the same concerns about leaving him. Because of medical issues in our family, I had to find a dog walker and also contacted a local person who boards dogs. I was worried no one would take him on. The dog walker did fine with my dog. He would sit without prompting when people or dogs passed, off to the side, but when he did get mouthy, the walker gave him the tug toy and redirected him without issue. The person who boards dogs ( she takes them on nature hikes) said she is VERY familiar with this behavior and my dog was welcome to stay with her. She said she would ignore or redirect.

My dog is older than yours (9 months) and I see signs of maturity. His impulse control is getting better just because of time. He is getting good about not breaking his sit again after training, and yesterday I was able to do a few long distance sits ( where he was 30 ft away and I told him to sit, and he sat right down without coming to me). Our walk yesterday was great without food, without stress and intensity. When he does start to jump and mouth, it is for a second and then we can redirect. BUT I am not chancing it. I really want to take him to a forest preserve, but I am going to have to be more sure about neighborhood walks before we attempt it, and when we go, it will be short.

We are also enrolled in a course for adolescent dogs with a great trainer. I figure the class will be full of triggers so we can practice with someone guiding us.

Time will really help, but you have to take care of yourself emotionally through it. I didn't sign up for this either and I have spent countless hours trying to find a solution. 

More later but hugs to you. You are doing great and DO NOT take this as a setback of scary proportions. There are always steps back and steps forward, and you are absolutely moving forward. You are doing great. Have I told you that you are doing great? Because you are doing great!!!!


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## Chritty

Stephanya said:


> Guys, I need a little moral support. Zoe has been an arousal biter for about 3ish months, and she has gotten about 75-90% better overall. However...today was horrible. It was like we were at square one. I took her on a different route and with a friend, instead of with our family in the neighborhood. There were, admittedly, many triggers: car traffic, lake ducks, other people (lots), walking dogs, etc. She went ballistic. She jumped and bit on me. She bit on the leash. I didn't have treats, which I usually use to distract with "find it", and my usual trick of tying her to a tree to settle down would settle her down for the moment, but as soon as I untied her, she would go at me again. It was awful and embarrassing. She wouldn't listen to my "no" (which she usually respects) and it was like all our hard work the last few months was gone. I was (and am) heartbroken about it. It feels like we made so much forward progress, and suddenly I am back to square one.
> 
> One of my greatest fears is that I will never be able to have someone watch her for me while we go on vacation. I can't imagine how we will deal with arousal biting when someone else is walking her in an unfamiliar environment. This episode really sealed that thinking for me. I am so bummed. Please tell me that this backtracking is normal, or if it's not, please help with tools if you have any. Obviously next time I will remember my treats, but I want to be able to walk Zoe in new places without dealing with this insanity. I have never once wanted to give up on her, but today I felt helpless and hopeless. Ugh. I love her dearly, but this side of her behavior was not one I was prepared to deal with. Any moral support would be much appreciated, as well as words of wisdom from you who have been through the trenches already. Sigh....



Even dogs can have "off days". As you point out you have already come so far with Zoe this day she's just lost her brain. You're not back to square one, you have all that forward progress there that has started creating the foundations for the dog you want Zoe to be. 

Zoe has reminded you that she is still young and that her training is a life long journey. You know the way to go forward together. 

To share something with you, Millie had a brain snap 2-3 weeks ago. Wifey was coming back inside from the yard and out of nowhere Millie started Jumpy Bitey. She hasn't done that since we stopped it almost 4 months ago. I corrected her, she stopped and she hasn't done it since. Two weekends ago we had a party with over 50 people including 10 young children. Millie didn't jump on anyone, didn't steal any food from tables or children, and had a great day enjoying stacks of pats from everyone. A lot of people were commenting on how well trained she is. She's come such a long way and I am so blown away by her self control. 









There will always be some sort of hiccup along the way Stephanie, don't let it get you down.


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## Stephanya

Thank you all for your kind words. Sometimes we just have to take this day by day, I guess with these hiccups, as Chritty said!


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## Anele

Just another update from us.

Kevin is about 9.5 months now. I kept dreading this age because I was told it would be the worst-- the teenage period! If he was so tough at 4.5 months, what would this be like?

I am pleased to report that things are going very well. I can't remember the last time he has jumped and bitten.

Today we had my nieces and nephew over, and Kevin thought it was the Best Day Ever. He truly adores children and followed them around. When they first came, he started to jump. We reminded him to get his toy, and he immediately took it and just did his happy greeting-- wagging his tail, circling around, and prancing. I would still not trust him around running children, however!

I don't take him out for long walks (we do 25 minute ones at a time, and we don't get too far as he loves to sniff) so I still haven't tested those, but these short ones always go well. Today we passed close to a group of men who said hi, and he didn't pull to see them and was polite about it. Ditto for squirrels-- he checks them out, they stare him down, and then he turns back to us. We are continuing NOT to use food on walks and it has been working. He just walks, sniffs, and wags his tail.

We started our adolescent class last week and it involved standing around with our dogs and rewarding them with food for things like eye contact, calm behavior, etc. Other than the initial greeting of the trainer (jumpy jumpy!) he did very well-- tons of eye contact, would lie down, didn't bark or whine, etc. My favorite part, however, was that I got him to play tug (with the rules) during this time-- normally he would be too hyped up or distracted to play, but he really got into it!

He still has a very long way to go, very, very long, but we are just so happy with the progress he has made.

For the people with this issue: just remember that more exercise and more playtime is not always the answer. For us, it went back to prevention and redirection, repeat, repeat, repeat, until maturity started to kick in!


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## Cpc1972

It is so nice to see these positive updates. We do the same thing with Chloe telling her to grab a toy. Funny how they greet so much better with that toy in their mouth. Does Kevin make like crying noises when the toy is in his mouth? Chloe does and it's so funny.


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## Anele

Cpc1972 said:


> It is so nice to see these positive updates. We do the same thing with Chloe telling her to grab a toy. Funny how they greet so much better with that toy in their mouth. Does Kevin make like crying noises when the toy is in his mouth? Chloe does and it's so funny.


I agree-- it is so funny! As soon as the toy is in his mouth, his paws stay firmly planted on the ground! Kevin makes sort of growly/talking noises! We should get our dogs on video and compare!


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## Cpc1972

Anele said:


> I agree-- it is so funny! As soon as the toy is in his mouth, his paws stay firmly planted on the ground! Kevin makes sort of growly/talking noises! We should get our dogs on video and compare!


Maybe I can get a video this week. I have Monday and WED since those are the days that my niece comes over. If I can remember I will try and get a video.


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## NGolden

I am so glad I found this thread. Unfortunately last post is from September or actually it's a good thing. 

All the time I am telling my husband and some of the family that my puppy is not normal puppy. And everyone is telling me oh she will grow out of it. Yes, but I am covered in bruises and so disappointed with all this cute puppy things. As may of your dogs I can see my dog is smart, she can learn tricks so fast, would be even faster if I know how to show it better.

My puppy is scared of everything. This morning we got out and it was sunny so she saw my shadow on the wall and started barking. So it's hard to me to avoid situations that can trigger her jumping and biting me. People started putting on Christmas lights. Like halloween wasn't enough for her. 

I will try to go few steps back and fallow some of your experience. I kind of believe less exercise and more mental work is better for her. So we have to work on that.

I am still reading on the post, but any of you did you had good experience with puppy day care. I can't still decide if that is good for her or not. 

I like how you wrote good days and bad days. For now we have much more bad days then good ones. She is 5 months old and there is a long road ahead of us for I can see.

I get so mad some times and if we maybe took her from a good breeder I would return her but getting a puppy from a mennonites doesn't include that option. But some one pointed out to me. First 8 months she grow up on the farm with not to much sounds and probably not to much time she has spent with her mom. And although since we got her she learns, sees new things and sounds it's still a lot for her. 

This should be a sticky, I took me awhile while I found this thread.


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## lloyddobler

Welcome to the support forum!  I've been in your shoes and struggled with my dog and still do from time to time but for different reasons. If your pup is anxious or fearful, I would not introduce doggy daycare at this point. I think that may have the potential to make things worse and not better. My dog jumped and bit at me constantly when he was a young guy like your pup. He would do it in the absence of stimuli, which I could never understand. After working with a few different trainers and not getting anywhere, I finally bit the bullet and took him into see a veterinary behaviorist (a DVM who also has a Ph.D in animal behavior). These folks are rare and expensive, but so worth it. It took me 2 months to even get my appointment and there is only one person with these credentials in my state. 

I was surprised to learn that Lloyd (my dog) was't over-aroused. He was highly anxious and mainly due to lacking confidence. He turned dog reactive when he was about 9 months old and I was worried I just had an aggressive dog on my hands! Turns out he was very anxious and insecure and was overcompensating for that.

She ended up recommending Prozac which I was very much against at first. However, after talking to my vet and another trainer, they made me feel a bit better about trying it. Everyone agreed we would try it for a period of 3 -6 months and that the main goal would be to help him with his anxiety so that I could more effectively train him. 

I cannot even tell you what a difference it has made. I can now keep his attention and he doesn't freak out when he sees a paper bag blowing across the street.

I'm not suggesting this would be the right thing for you and your pup. I'm just sharing because every dog's situation is different and it will take different things to help with their issues and training. 

My pup also was not feeling well due to thyroid issues. He's since been diagnosed as hypothyroid and is on meds. I never would have guessed I'd have all these issues with my boy as he came from a very well respected breeder too. However, after going through many days/weeks/even months of grieving for the puppy I wanted, I think I am nearly to the place where I love him for who he is. He's a sweet boy who loves to snuggle and loves to play "find it" and use his nose. I have so much fun with him! However, it has been a ton of work which is now mostly focused on helping him be less reactive to other dogs.

On thing that helped us more than anything else in terms of the jumping and biting is the use of a gentle leader head harness. I tried every other type of collar, body harness, everything. For some reason the GL has worked magic for us. Our trainer and the vet behaviorist talked me into trying it and I'm so glad I did.

Hope some of this helps you.


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## Anele

NGolden, it is so difficult when we read things online, or really anywhere-- hard to know what is true, what to be worried about, etc. I hope this thread helps you sort some of it out.

I would say that you are probably correct in saying that fear of everything is not typical for a dog. We hear that so much comes from a dog's first 8 weeks, but then there are some dogs that grow up chained to a fence and are the most gentle, confident dogs, whereas there are others who had good starts in life and still have significant behavioral/mental issues. 

Like lloyddobler, I would also advise against puppy care at this point, as it likely won't help with her fear. I know that sometimes, a dog paired up with another dog-friendly, confident dog does help, but the dog would have to be carefully chosen and just a one-on-one sort of relationship vs. a whole group of dogs. I am really so, so, so very sorry you are going through this and hope you keep us updated.

lloyddobler, it sounds like Lloyd has made so much wonderful progress. All of your hard work with him is truly paying off. This is such heartwarming news.

We have been hitting a rough patch lately. I was just posting recently how bittersweet I've been feeling about my pup growing up and almost reaching a year. But he's been jumping and biting more. He did it to my daughter when she was out playing with him with leaves. He hadn't done it to her for ages so she and we were growing more confident with them together. She tried ignoring him but he just kept on.

I've been trying to take him on longer walks and it's been bad. And by longer, I do NOT mean long. I mean, around the block-- literally. The longest he can go without jumping and biting is to the end of the block and back. Longer, and he has issues. I feel this is so unhealthy for him, and heartbreaking for me, that my dog can't walk around the block. We try the Gentle Leader, but lately what he will do is either scootch on his belly to try to get it off (roll around) or he will lie down on the sidewalk and just not walk. So, I don't know if it would help for jumping and biting at this point. 

I am sure I've said this before, but out of all the problems I thought I'd have with a dog, this NEVER crossed my mind-- that I'd have a dog who was mostly gentle at home (though busy!) and then outside, start to jump and bite-- a dog I feel is very untrustworthy. His triggers include people, dogs, and this one house for some reason-- he will almost always start up with the jump/bite. I can't use food on our walks as it makes him more anxious/aroused. The tug toy works sometimes. Gentle Leader = mutiny. Sternly talking to him makes him more agitated as does eye contact. He does not back down. Ignoring doesn't work except on occasion (if he is only a teeny bit aroused, in the yard).

I am very, very, very tired of having to deal this. I do almost all the work with him. The kids can't take him on walks-- I had been letting my 10 y.o. and it was OK, but now he is getting bad again so I can't. My husband won't do it. The worst I thought I would deal outside on walks is a dog who pulled too much. Haha, I was so dumb and uninformed!


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## Cpc1972

Chloe's has been going through a little regression with my niece also. There was a point she was doing awesome. The last month or so she wants to bite her toes and gets really excited again with her in the room. It's not as bad as it was when she was a land shark puppy but we still have to watch her very close with her.


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## Anele

*Cpc1972*, has she stopped the jumping/biting completely now other than feet nibling? This is the part that is most frustrating to me. I am really hoping the end is near soon and will not get worse. I had looked forward to long walks, especially in the woods, with a dog . . .


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## Cpc1972

Anele said:


> *Cpc1972*, has she stopped the jumping/biting completely now other than feet nibling? This is the part that is most frustrating to me. I am really hoping the end is near soon and will not get worse. I had looked forward to long walks, especially in the woods, with a dog . . .


Her jumping really only happens when the kids first come over. The feet nibbling and putting her face right in my nieces face to get her attention is what happens the most. Or she paws at her to get her to play. It doesn't help that my niece is a very small four yearold so she is almost face to face with Chloe. I should post the video I got today. It's kind of funny but shows kind of what Chloe does. She doesn't really bite anymore.


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## Cpc1972

Here is a couple videos I took today. My niece had her dancing music on so she was a little excited.


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## NGolden

Uh, this is so hard sometimes since you don't know what is good for your dog and what is not. 
Finally that someone her says day care is not good for her. All the time my inside feeling is telling me she doesn't like it, because I know how much things scares her when she is with me and how then she feels when she's alone there. Our trainer, people at puppy school and my family is telling me that I am overprotective (which I admit in some cases) but I really don't like doing her things that she doesn't like. I know she is scared and I know she is anxious and every new thing is hard on her. 

I have watched Michael Ellis videos (beside others). And I found some good points in that. First one that I liked was how he described if you afraid of a hight and someone is telling you come hear it's ok look. Would you believe that person. So when your dog is scared of things and you do that to the dog, why would they believe you and you continue pulling them. 
For example she is afraid to go to our basement because stairs are wooden. And one day we were calling her come look it's fine, come. She was barking, scared and she was all worked up. So after that we leave just sometimes doors open she comes sniffs, she wants to go, I can see she is scared but she doesn't bark and she's calm. I expect one day she will put her paws on first stair and step by step she will come down. But no pressure no calling her, on her on time and terms. 

It's easier with sill things, then people and dogs. For now she barks, but sometimes she just comes and sniffs a dog, those are rare moments but precious. 

Also I am trying to distract her and when she has focus on me I feed, feed, feed her. And today when we got out of the car, kids were playing hockey on a street and dog across the street was barking. But I've got her to pay more attention to me (we had a car between those obstacle) but I was able to feed her and she didn't bark like crazy. I couldn't believe. 

Other positive thing that happened today was that she wasn't freaked out by planting pot. It's in our backyard for maybe 2 weeks now and she would run away when I would touch it, bark some times. And today I even pushed it with my leg and she went after it.

As you all people said she doesn't need tons of exercise but more mental stimulation.
Today, she played in backyard (I am so glad she has that possibility, I really feel for you guys who are in buildings or don't have backyards, it helps a lot). And we went for a 15-20 minute walk in the afternoon. And it was good enough. 

What I have noticed. Due to all positive training we rarely tell her now and push her away (part of is because food guarding). And she was she mad when I told her no and move her away. She started biting and barking. We were in the house and she ended up in her crate. I think we have to work so she listens to me better and respect (have to get tougher). 

Other thing which was good I believe when yesterday she was crazy and ended up in crate, she was barking and whining for more then 20 minute. It was so hard to listen to her but I decided that she has to calm down before she gets out. She calmed down but then I got to fill out her food bag and she heard me and went crazy again for another 20 minutes or so. So after an hour she calmed down we started dinner time. She usually sits but when I am preparing her food if it takes longer or she smells something new she will start barking and jumping. So yesterday I waited longer to calm down and she had to lay down, not sit as usual. I've noticed that usually I was waiting little before I would give her treat and with all things yesterday I waited longer. And it seems she knew to calm down for those few seconds but when she didn't get what usually would she went crazy. It was a hard night but today when she ended up in a crated she didn't make even a sound (not sure if she was so tired or it was coincidence). But she didn't bark almost at all when I was feeding her today. Also I have started working way more with her patience around her food. She is sooo excited when food is coming. Now she gets part of her meal in her kong, which slows down her eating and she has to play with it. And when I am putting food in kong she has to wait quietly and when I put kong on the floor she has to wait for ok to get it. Other part is she has to go to her pillow and lay down. Then I wait for now about 15,20 seconds if she doesn't move she gets few kibbles. At the beginning she was not able to settle down she would lay down get up, lay down get up. Other thing is when she's on her pillow I tell her stay and I put few kibbles on the floor. I get up and move a little bit and tell her then go and she goes and eats them. So before she was barely able to wait for one, the when I would get up she would go for it. Now I can make few steps and she's looking at me. 
I have feeling we did so much improvement in only few days with few simple exercises like that. And interesting thing, although she is resource guarding first I gave her kong in her crate so she can eat in peace, but she took it and brought it in living room and she would lay down next to me to eat it. I was surprised by that.

So there were some good things going on but. 

She was biting today, not as bad as yesterday. Weeeee.

One other thing, we went to store with a car. So my husband, dog and me. She is ok I think with driving. She is now in the back of the car when we go somewhere. When we stopped at the store my husband went out to buy stuff and I stayed with her in the car. And then she started whining and barking a little bit, but not as much. More whining and walking from one side to other. And she would try to come closer to me. I have tried to ignore her since nothing bad is going on. It was like that until my husband came back. But by then she had a foamy mouth. So she seemed stressed. I don't know why is that so stressful even when I am there with her. But we are working step by step. 

Also I have read that foamy mouth is sign of stress, and every time when we go for a walk she gets foamy mouth. But I am pretty sure she likes go for a walk because every time when I get a leash she runs to do door and waits to get out.

It was long post but it's nice to share problems with people that understand and maybe it will help some one who's reading. 

And I think we will take her to our vet to get her blood test and medical done. I need a confirmation that this dog is healthy.


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## Anele

CPC1972, that behavior doesn't look too unmanageable at all! What Kevin does is much more intense.


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## Cpc1972

Anele said:


> CPC1972, that behavior doesn't look too unmanageable at all! What Kevin does is much more intense.


It's not to bad. You can also see by the video when my mom told her no she listened. But it does come down to just not letting her alone with Chloe. It would probably be a lot worse if we weren't there to stop it.


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## Anele

NGolden, if your inside feeling tells you something-- LISTEN! Unfortunately, even though dogs + humans together have been around a long time, I don't believe there is any one expert who has all of the pieces understood, so you have to be your own researcher based on _your_ dog.

It sounds like she is already so very overloaded, so if she is scared of every little thing, and day care makes her feel this way, then she is only "practicing" being anxious, which is not something you will want to reinforce. It doesn't mean she needs to live in a bubble, but as you described with the stairs, it means very slow progression sometimes (well, better too slow than to fast, anyway!) and as you said, without pressure. Don't be afraid to pair food with scary things. Scary thing then food at small increments will help her have positive associations.

How is she doing with food guarding now? 

The foaming at the mouth-- I am glad you are getting her checked by a vet. If you decide to take her to a behaviorist this would be the first step anyway. I am not an expert by any means, but it does seem like a more intense signal that she really isn't feeling well on some level (mentally or physically). I don't know anything about it so I would be really interested in hearing what others have to say about this.

For the crate and calming down-- what you can do is, the second she stops whining, give her a treat. Then, increase the time (maybe she stops whining for 2 seconds). Keep increasing the time, sometimes making it easier (not always harder). That way she doesn't have to be freaked out for long periods of time in the crate.

Sounds like you have made progress in many ways. Good for you-- already what you are doing is paying off. It's not easy to have a dog with special needs . . .it's so hard some days, I know.


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## Anele

Cpc1972 said:


> It's not to bad. You can also see by the video when my mom told her no she listened. But it does come down to just not letting her alone with Chloe. It would probably be a lot worse if we weren't there to stop it.


Yeah, it really isn't. Kevin doesn't do his jump/bite with my younger kids . . .it's really only outside (on leash or off) when something gets him over his threshold, but like I said, it is much more intense than what Chloe does and it's not easy to settle him lately. (We had more success before.) He will LOOK for an older person to release this energy to instead of the younger kids, and leaves them alone (he didn't when younger).


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## Anele

*Natural Dog Training*

_A third option . . .
_
We hear a lot about positive training (R+) vs. dominance-type training. 

BUT, there is another type of training that doesn't work quite the same way, even though some of it is very similar to traditional R+. I have read about it on and off the past several months, but yesterday I read more and feel it may be the missing piece for some dogs with arousal biting.

From Natural Dog Training.

*Natural Dog Training techniques also teach your dog how to relax at higher and higher levels of stimulation.* Most problem behaviors in dogs have two root causes:


A dog has too much stored stress and no way of venting (resolving) that stress productively.
A dog has trouble relaxing when they’re energized, and their physical tension causes them to have an ‘overload’ response to being energized (aggression, submissive urination, etc.) instead of being in the flow of the situation (which would allow them to handle the energy of the moment without overloading).
Isn't this the root of our problem? That our dogs need to learn how to relax at high levels of stimulation? For me, at least-- the stimulation adds up fast . . .a squirrel, a person, a walk that lasts a little too long . . .BOOM! Some dogs have a naturally much higher threshold, some of them-- not so much.


When my dog does the jump/bite thing, I feel like he is looking for a release, not attention, not to be disobedient, not to be my boss, but because he has so much energy in him and he doesn't know what to do with it. There is a technique we are supposed to use via this method called "pushing" that is supposed to help a lot for this . . .and it's your DOG pushing YOU, not the other way around.


There is a ton of reading I have to do, but here is a list to get started. It is based on ideas from Kevin Behan.


There are DVDs offered, but also an 8 week class you can take . . .you choose how much you want to pay ($10, $25, or $40) for the exact same class.


I also signed up for a free teleseminar-- I got the info and the next one is this Thursday at 8 EST. CLICK HERE FOR INFO.



So, we will see how it goes. Just one more tool for the toolbox!


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## NGolden

Anele said:


> How is she doing with food guarding now?



It's so so. She is still guarding. When she finds old carrot in the garden, or someting else. She is not letting it go. She growls and gives a bark or a snap. Today I gave her frozen stuffed kong and when i approached she barked and snaped at me. I had chicken in my hand but she didn't noticed. After that she was all the time looking at me and licking faster. I've seen she is not relaxed. The only thing that is better for now that she didn't bite. She gave a worning sound.

Few days ago we had an situation. I gave her a little bit of rice with her food and it got stuck in her mouth. First I have tried slowly to pet her and come closer to her mouth so I could see what's going on but once when I touched her lip she growled and bit me. Bad thing is that she did it. Good thing I guess that she just put her teeth on my hand and stopped. So she didn't make any marks. Usually she would. After maybe few more minutes of her trying to remove it unsucessfully she made a whining sound so I told her to come over. She did, I pet her and start going slowly to her mouth then I was able to she all food that got stuck I put my finger in and with one motion removed it. And she ate it right away. I was scared of doing that after what she did just few minutes before but so relieved that everything went well for the second time.


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## Anele

NGolden said:


> It's so so. She is still guarding. When she finds old carrot in the garden, or someting else. She is not letting it go.


Is there a reason she has to let go of the carrot, or do you just mean that she guards it anyway? 

Have you read the book Mine! ?

This is another good list-- not sure if you already have this info.


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## NGolden

Anele said:


> Is there a reason she has to let go of the carrot, or do you just mean that she guards it anyway?
> 
> Have you read the book Mine! ?
> 
> This is another good list-- not sure if you already have this info.


No there isn't any reason she has to let go the carrot. But today is a carrot tomorrow something potentialy dangerous for her. So I want to prevent future problems. I've heard about it. Didn't get chance to read it.


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## Anele

You have a long way to go before you should be working on taking things away, though. Right now she sounds pretty terrified so you need to put all of your effort into building trust.

Look at the difference:Golden retriever puppy resource guarding


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## Cpc1972

NGolden said:


> No there isn't any reason she has to let go the carrot. But today is a carrot tomorrow something potentialy dangerous for her. So I want to prevent future problems. I've heard about it. Didn't get chance to read it.


Sometimes if what Chloe has is something that isn't going to cause harm we just don't take it away. Sometimes it's just not worth the battle. She has a thing with paper towels or napkins. Sometimes we just let her tear it up. It's just not worth it. She doesn't have any kind of guarding issues though. It really is though just keep working on trading it for something else. Sometimes if it something like a carrot maybe you trade and then give it back.


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## Anele

Yes, at this point it should be almost always adding (not taking or trading) but if anything, the minimum should be trading, not taking. I don't know if that makes sense.


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## Chritty

Anele said:


> CPC1972, that behavior doesn't look too unmanageable at all! What Kevin does is much more intense.



Have you got any video footage of Kevin when he's acting out?


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## Anele

Chritty said:


> Have you got any video footage of Kevin when he's acting out?


Funny you should ask-- I was just thinking today that I will have to bring my daughter along and have her record. Unfortunately/fortunately, the footage should be easy to get because his threshold is still low. Just got back from a short walk and was very happy to have the tug toy because he surely would have bitten me once we got to our driveway. On a longer walk, though, the tug toy doesn't work.


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## skyqueen

*venting for over arousal biting*

I have a 7 month old with the same problem you all have with the over arousal biting. It is quite exasperating and something me and my husband try to deal with on a daily basis. Sometimes I don't like the little dear very much when my clothes are ripped to shreds and she attacks me like I'm a common criminal rather than the person who loves her.
Anyway, yesterday I was at a Petsmart and was explaining her behavior to the dog trainer there and basically she told me all of her bad behavior was my fault
and that I had ruined a perfectly good dog. Needless to say I have been depressed ever since but I know in my heart that is not true and I try on a daily basis to deal with the situation the best I can. I know I am not perfect but I have had many dogs in the past and nothing compares to her behavior.
I have to sign off she is chewing up the house. thanks for listening


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## Anele

Skyqueen, I wish I could give you a big ol' hug through the Internet!

If it makes you feel better--
I talked to a group of trainers and they said this behavior would be difficult for even an experienced owner.

A woman I know who works in rescue with retrievers says this is a common issue among those in rescue. It's often why they are given up. She sees it as normal, typical (again, for those in rescue) and nothing to be worried about IF it isn't actual aggression. Not to say it shouldn't be addressed! She emphasized repeatedly to make sure I listened to my instincts, used positive methods, etc. Interestingly, she said females with this issue get adopted right away while the males don't. 

7 months was our peak of horror. That's when we stopped the walks. It got better. A lot better. We still don't do a lot of walks. If we do, they are training walks. I just can't chance him doing this when I am with my young child on a walk (he wouldn't do it to her) and I am alone with my kids most of the time, so it's too iffy. Instead we take him out to training, the pet store, relatives' homes, etc. (Highly monitored.)

Prevention, redirection, working on relaxation (Dr Karen Overall Relaxation Protocol), mentally stimulating games, physical outlets with a plan B for redirection/prevention, chew activities (wholesalepetsupplies.com) boring activities that are bonding (my pup comes with me daily to pick up my kids in the car), tricks training, nose work, obedience classes, etc. 

Focus on impulse control exercises and ways you can bond. 

My guy is 12 months and he still does it every once in awhile. Then I get sad and frustrated all over again. But in general-- he does very well at home, loves my kids, and controls himself to not eat my daughter's big furry sleeves on a Santa dress that she insists on wearing every day. 

My PM box is always open.


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## MoltenGirl

Anele said:


> _A third option . . .
> _
> We hear a lot about positive training (R+) vs. dominance-type training.
> 
> BUT, there is another type of training that doesn't work quite the same way, even though some of it is very similar to traditional R+. I have read about it on and off the past several months, but yesterday I read more and feel it may be the missing piece for some dogs with arousal biting.
> 
> From Natural Dog Training.
> 
> *Natural Dog Training techniques also teach your dog how to relax at higher and higher levels of stimulation.* Most problem behaviors in dogs have two root causes:
> 
> 
> A dog has too much stored stress and no way of venting (resolving) that stress productively.
> A dog has trouble relaxing when they’re energized, and their physical tension causes them to have an ‘overload’ response to being energized (aggression, submissive urination, etc.) instead of being in the flow of the situation (which would allow them to handle the energy of the moment without overloading).
> Isn't this the root of our problem? That our dogs need to learn how to relax at high levels of stimulation? For me, at least-- the stimulation adds up fast . . .a squirrel, a person, a walk that lasts a little too long . . .BOOM! Some dogs have a naturally much higher threshold, some of them-- not so much.
> 
> 
> When my dog does the jump/bite thing, I feel like he is looking for a release, not attention, not to be disobedient, not to be my boss, but because he has so much energy in him and he doesn't know what to do with it. There is a technique we are supposed to use via this method called "pushing" that is supposed to help a lot for this . . .and it's your DOG pushing YOU, not the other way around.
> 
> 
> There is a ton of reading I have to do, but here is a list to get started. It is based on ideas from Kevin Behan.
> 
> 
> There are DVDs offered, but also an 8 week class you can take . . .you choose how much you want to pay ($10, $25, or $40) for the exact same class.
> 
> 
> I also signed up for a free teleseminar-- I got the info and the next one is this Thursday at 8 EST. CLICK HERE FOR INFO.
> 
> 
> 
> So, we will see how it goes. Just one more tool for the toolbox!


Thank you SO MUCH for this!!!!


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## skyqueen

Going through the same thing myself. My Ziggy is 10 months old and arousal bites and boy she puts a lot into it as well. Took her on a walk this morning in an isolated area she was off leash and was great, I put her on the leash to walk back to the car and she turned into a shark, I tied her to a tree until she settled, started up again, retied to the tree waited longer and we finally got to the car. I considered that a B- kind of walk. Then as soon as we got in the house she jumped up and bit me in the tricep and broke a blood vessel-boy that just is so annoying. However we got through it and now things are calm. It is a full scale challenge 
and I feel for all of you as I do myself. I so hope she will grow out of this.
PS this evening we are taking the CGC test-my daughter thinks its a joke because she is so awful but really she acts nice in that environment. Thanks for listening>


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## lloyddobler

Hello all! I haven't visited the forum in months. I was one of the daily posters last spring/summer on this topic. My pup had several issues going on that was driving his behavior. Not only was he a terrible teenager, but he was hypothyroid (undiagnosed at the time), and overall lacked a bit of confidence. Looking back, I do blame myself for the lack of confidence piece as I likely was a bit too aggressive in socializing him. I took the advice of my trainer to have him exposed to as many people, places, and animals as possible while still a puppy to the extreme. This poor puppy went everywhere with me and it likely caused stress and hence a certain reaction towards things as he got older. I can see now that I should have taken things a little slower and he likely would have had a more positive experience.

The hypothyroid diagnosis and seeing a veterinary behaviorist who recommended prozac really made a difference for me. I really struggled to put him on the prozac, but after reading more and talking to my vet, I decided that it was a good option for us on a temporary basis. He's been on the prozac since August/Sept of last year and I will be seeing my vet in a month and will see if I should start weening him off. He's much calmer and at ease with the world. I have been able to take that more centered energy and trained him more appropriate behaviors. 

I went from having many moments a day where I honestly didn't really like my dog (especially those where he would bite and jump and growl at me in public, tearing my clothes and pride!) to loving him to pieces. He's still a puppy and has his moments. His main behavioral issue now is demand barking, which typically happens if his tennis ball goes under a piece of furniture. However, he's sweet and snuggley (even if it is for just a few minutes at a time). 

I'm nearly 180 degrees from where I was this time last year. If someone would have told me it would get better then, I likely would not have believed them. I think that any of us who care enough to post here, will work to find the answers and help we need and it will eventually improve. It may not improve fast enough as it is an awful thing to go through, but in time it will!


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## CedarFurbaby

First of all, thank you for this thread and Anele for starting it. I would not have identified Cedar's behaviour as over arousal biting otherwise. I have read some of the previous posts in this thread but not all yet. 

He's only 10.5 weeks and has shown this behaviour since I brought him home at 8.5 weeks (after he adjusted). He's grown up with a litter and loving care and properly socialised and everything, and it's so frustrating I don't know if I'm doing the right thing or ruining a good puppy. It took me some time before I learned that I have to be calm when he's in this frenzy. And very luckily he's been taught to 'settle down' so I try to get out of the way and then tell him settle down. 

Two of the most recent incidents are :

1. He got scared of the water hose, and I left the water hose on the ground for him to investigate, and he got near it and basically wasn't so scared anymore. There was water all around and we played with toys. Then suddenly turned on me. I carried and put him in the crate and left him alone for 5 screaming minutes, and when it turned into a whine, I set beside him and told him 'settle down'. Then he went to sleep. This incident was pretty high scale, he drew blood even through jeans. 

2. He had a morning play/train sessions. Sometimes he's chewing on a toy while I stroke him, he loves this. And sometimes I make him sit and drop and some training, and then back to playing. Sometimes I hold a toy and shake it and he holds on to it. If I say give, he would give it up, but not immediately. He gets a treat then. Playing with toys together ensures he doesn't chew my clothes. At some point he's happily lying down and chewing his toy and suddenly he bites my shoes hard and then escalates to nipping me. These are hard bites. I only got one or two bites before I quickly crossed the baby gate and he whined, but was ok. Then I said settle down and he went to his crate. One other thing was he got frustrated when his toy went under a table and he barked at it and was agitated. I got it out for him.

Perhaps the play/train session was too long? And I should have shorter but successful walks rather than one where gets him over stimulated. He's also very active, and we could stay out for 30 min easily, with him sniffing around, before he's tired and sits down. Then he's tired but doesn't want to go home, so puts up a fight if I try to carry him home. 

Other than this, with food and sometimes without food, he can follow some commands (when he's not over aroused), and he falls asleep when he carry him or put him on my lap, he doesn't guard his possessions and while he doesn't know fetch, he would chase a toy that I throw and come back to chew it beside me.


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## Anele

I never updated on this post, but I did elsewhere on the forum.

The good news is, our dog is now fantastic.

Oddly, the fix was simple. I taught my dog to jump on me on cue. I was thrilled to note that, the first time I had him jump, he jumped and then was about to mouth me. I suspected he had a pattern (jump, then mouth). I broke the pattern. I had him jump and then immediately gave him a treat for jumping on me. I could see a light bulb turn on in his brain! We repeated it a few times, and it was interesting to see how controlled he was when he jumped on me. I'd cue, he'd jump on me (once), then I'd give him a treat.

From that moment, he never put his mouth on us again. He is extremely gentle.


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## Gracie’s mom

Oh my goodness other people that get it!! Gracie walked with no problems up until about 2 weeks after Christmas and it was like a switch that went off. She started jumping up and biting at me and grabbing the leash. She is 10 months old right now. She will also get overly bitey when we play or I’m petting her in the house. I can get that to stop by just standing up/stopping play and ignoring her. The walks though are terrible. Sometimes it’s only once and other times it’s almost the whole walk. It does seem to be in the same spots during our walks though. I have tried changing my routes but that doesn’t really help much.

I will take any advice anyone has. She was a terrible biter as a puppy. The yiping like an injured dog didn’t stop her only excited her more and she drew blood frequently. There were many days when I was ready to throw in the towel and now I am beginning to feel the same way about our walks ?


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## vincecarter55

Anele said:


> I never updated on this post, but I did elsewhere on the forum.
> 
> The good news is, our dog is now fantastic.
> 
> Oddly, the fix was simple. I taught my dog to jump on me on cue. I was thrilled to note that, the first time I had him jump, he jumped and then was about to mouth me. I suspected he had a pattern (jump, then mouth). I broke the pattern. I had him jump and then immediately gave him a treat for jumping on me. I could see a light bulb turn on in his brain! We repeated it a few times, and it was interesting to see how controlled he was when he jumped on me. I'd cue, he'd jump on me (once), then I'd give him a treat.
> 
> From that moment, he never put his mouth on us again. He is extremely gentle.


Hi Anele, I feel like I need to pick your brain! My 11 month old golden retriever sounds just like your dog with the over-arousal biting. I've read through this entire thread (all 14 pages... took me a bit lol). So you think the key to stopping the overarousal biting is just to teach him to jump up? And how did you teach him? Our 11 month old has a low threshold and it seems that training for too long/too hard can put him over threshold. So kind of hard to teach new tricks right now (he used to be better...). Does he still do some kind of over-arousal biting/outlet when he's on a walk?

Also, was there ever any medical issues that your dog had? I know people mention hypothroidism as being linked to some of these odd behaviours. And at what age did you have your dog neutered (or did you)?


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## vincecarter55

lloyddobler said:


> Hello all! I haven't visited the forum in months. I was one of the daily posters last spring/summer on this topic. My pup had several issues going on that was driving his behavior. Not only was he a terrible teenager, but he was hypothyroid (undiagnosed at the time), and overall lacked a bit of confidence. Looking back, I do blame myself for the lack of confidence piece as I likely was a bit too aggressive in socializing him. I took the advice of my trainer to have him exposed to as many people, places, and animals as possible while still a puppy to the extreme. This poor puppy went everywhere with me and it likely caused stress and hence a certain reaction towards things as he got older. I can see now that I should have taken things a little slower and he likely would have had a more positive experience.
> 
> The hypothyroid diagnosis and seeing a veterinary behaviorist who recommended prozac really made a difference for me. I really struggled to put him on the prozac, but after reading more and talking to my vet, I decided that it was a good option for us on a temporary basis. He's been on the prozac since August/Sept of last year and I will be seeing my vet in a month and will see if I should start weening him off. He's much calmer and at ease with the world. I have been able to take that more centered energy and trained him more appropriate behaviors.
> 
> I went from having many moments a day where I honestly didn't really like my dog (especially those where he would bite and jump and growl at me in public, tearing my clothes and pride!) to loving him to pieces. He's still a puppy and has his moments. His main behavioral issue now is demand barking, which typically happens if his tennis ball goes under a piece of furniture. However, he's sweet and snuggley (even if it is for just a few minutes at a time).
> 
> I'm nearly 180 degrees from where I was this time last year. If someone would have told me it would get better then, I likely would not have believed them. I think that any of us who care enough to post here, will work to find the answers and help we need and it will eventually improve. It may not improve fast enough as it is an awful thing to go through, but in time it will!


Hey there, out of curiosity... how's your dog doing now? I am having my 11 month old golden get a full thyroid panel on Monday since he has similar issues to the ones in this thread. If the results show that he is hypothyroid, then I am a little concerned about him having to take medication for the rest of his life (although this is probably unwarranted). At what age was your dog neutered (assuming he was neutered)?


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## vincecarter55

Gracie’s mom said:


> Oh my goodness other people that get it!! Gracie walked with no problems up until about 2 weeks after Christmas and it was like a switch that went off. She started jumping up and biting at me and grabbing the leash. She is 10 months old right now. She will also get overly bitey when we play or I’m petting her in the house. I can get that to stop by just standing up/stopping play and ignoring her. The walks though are terrible. Sometimes it’s only once and other times it’s almost the whole walk. It does seem to be in the same spots during our walks though. I have tried changing my routes but that doesn’t really help much.
> 
> I will take any advice anyone has. She was a terrible biter as a puppy. The yiping like an injured dog didn’t stop her only excited her more and she drew blood frequently. There were many days when I was ready to throw in the towel and now I am beginning to feel the same way about our walks ?


I can't offer a lot of help since my wife and I are having issues with the over-arousal biting (especially on walks)... and leash reactivity unfortunately. Have you been able to come up with any solutions in the 2 months since you posted this?


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## Anele

@vincecarter55 our issue was completely resolved when I taught my dog to just jump. He never did it again, ever, or put his mouth on us in any other way. When we saw video of him doing this, it was apparent he thought he was playing! Had he been with a different owner from the start, I doubt he ever would have done this to begin with...I have noticed that this tends to be a problem for first-time owners and from what I have read, it's not all that unusual for large breed adolescent dogs. He has an amazing temperament...tolerant and loving with everyone (people of all ages, dogs, cats-- never instigates anything and lets everything go immediately). He has no medical issues at all and is intact. He is the best dog we could have ever hoped for and we are so in love with him. 

As for teaching your dog to jump, I kneeled down and patted my legs and invited him. He's very in tune with us so that worked, but not all dogs are going to get it that way. You can do whatever it takes to get your dog excited and back into "the mode" but have the high value treat handy. This article might help you! Stop walking your dog.


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## vincecarter55

Anele said:


> @vincecarter55 our issue was completely resolved when I taught my dog to just jump. He never did it again, ever, or put his mouth on us in any other way. When we saw video of him doing this, it was apparent he thought he was playing! Had he been with a different owner from the start, I doubt he ever would have done this to begin with...I have noticed that this tends to be a problem for first-time owners and from what I have read, it's not all that unusual for large breed adolescent dogs. He has an amazing temperament...tolerant and loving with everyone (people of all ages, dogs, cats-- never instigates anything and lets everything go immediately). He has no medical issues at all and is intact. He is the best dog we could have ever hoped for and we are so in love with him.
> 
> As for teaching your dog to jump, I kneeled down and patted my legs and invited him. He's very in tune with us so that worked, but not all dogs are going to get it that way. You can do whatever it takes to get your dog excited and back into "the mode" but have the high value treat handy. This article might help you! Stop walking your dog.


Thanks for getting back to me! I really appreciate your advice and your story is giving us hope right now since we're at a loss for the 'random' attacks that our puppy has. Your dog sounds very similar to ours. He definitely seems to have 'triggers' that increase his stress/arousal (he has issues with overarousal for sure) such as other dogs and when we minimize that, he seems to do better. Here's a video of what our dog looks like when he 'attacks': video-1585060022 - Streamable. We've had tried redirecting to a tug toy, 'treat parties', using the leash to correct, etc. in those moments but overall his 'attacks' have increased in frequency.

So I'm assuming your dog still has triggers so does he just jump up rather than jumping up and biting now? Or did teaching him to jump somehow stop the over-arousal biting on walks completely?

How much play did you do with your dog? We are finding that his overarousal biting can also happen with play. He also does it when he is frustrated? E.g. didn't get something right during training and we didn't give him a treat. Did you have these issues at all?

I checked out and read that link that you included, 'stop walking your dog'. Is that what you had to do then at one point? No walks at all? And we've been doing mat work for a while, but maybe we need a fresh approach to 'retrain' the calm behaviours.

You had posted a link about 'Natural Dog Training' a while back. I checked it out briefly and it is definitely very different than any kind of training we've done. Did you end up using these philosophies/training styles?


----------



## Anele

RE: Natural Dog Training...yeah, I don't recommend that anymore. I am not saying there isn't any merit to it, just that I really don't know enough about it one way or another and researching it more might take you down a pointless rabbit hole.

My dog does not have the triggers anymore. He's in all sort of exciting situations, too. He also does not jump on us, ever, unless we ask him to. Now when we cue him to jump, he will jump on us politely and methodically. While for some dogs, there is an underlying issue that needs to be treated w/medication, for most, like mine, it's just age-related and due to an inexperienced owner.

I didn't find the article I sent to you until recently (someone else in a group posted it because they were having this same issue) but I think it's full of fantastic advice. We DID stop taking our dog on walks for a few months back then. We stopped because it made sense to us even though it goes against almost everything else you will ever read (except for that article)! 

I did play with my dog a lot. We now have other dogs so he plays with them...I don't do it as much anymore. Somewhere on this board I wrote a post about how to play tug with RULES. Rules are key to a good game. Playing this way helps you bring the arousal level up and down. You teach him to have self-control this way. 

So, my suggestions would be:
(1) Don't freak out. This is annoying, bratty behavior but it is not aggression. Stay calm. And yes, I saw the video of your dog!
(2) Prevention is always best because you do not want a dog to practice unwanted behaviors. Stop taking your dog on walks! You can do very short ones. Stay close to your house. They should be short enough that the arousal behavior doesn't ever have a chance to begin. You can make the walks you do take training ones and time to sniff on cue. Additionally, practice walks INSIDE the house, and when he's perfect there, then the driveway, eventually the first block, etc. Eventually you can go back to long walks when he is over this hump. You will have to go slow to go fast.
(3) Use the exercises and training in the link I sent. Very valuable advice.
(4) You can also get a dog treadmill. While this does not take the place of a dog going outside on a walk, it does help a dog learn to focus, and get tired out in a good way.
(5) If your dog starts to do this inside, I would retire him to an expen or crate for 10 minutes, or leave the room. Playtime is done. You aren't punishing him, you are just saying...I am not playing this way with you. You broke the rules.
(6) Teach him to jump on cue when he's calm.

I PROMISE this will get better and you will end up with a fabulous dog. I wish I could clone mine! 



vincecarter55 said:


> Thanks for getting back to me! I really appreciate your advice and your story is giving us hope right now since we're at a loss for the 'random' attacks that our puppy has. Your dog sounds very similar to ours. He definitely seems to have 'triggers' that increase his stress/arousal (he has issues with overarousal for sure) such as other dogs and when we minimize that, he seems to do better. Here's a video of what our dog looks like when he 'attacks': video-1585060022 - Streamable. We've had tried redirecting to a tug toy, 'treat parties', using the leash to correct, etc. in those moments but overall his 'attacks' have increased in frequency.
> 
> So I'm assuming your dog still has triggers so does he just jump up rather than jumping up and biting now? Or did teaching him to jump somehow stop the over-arousal biting on walks completely?
> 
> How much play did you do with your dog? We are finding that his overarousal biting can also happen with play. He also does it when he is frustrated? E.g. didn't get something right during training and we didn't give him a treat. Did you have these issues at all?
> 
> I checked out and read that link that you included, 'stop walking your dog'. Is that what you had to do then at one point? No walks at all? And we've been doing mat work for a while, but maybe we need a fresh approach to 'retrain' the calm behaviours.
> 
> You had posted a link about 'Natural Dog Training' a while back. I checked it out briefly and it is definitely very different than any kind of training we've done. Did you end up using these philosophies/training styles?


----------



## vincecarter55

Anele said:


> RE: Natural Dog Training...yeah, I don't recommend that anymore. I am not saying there isn't any merit to it, just that I really don't know enough about it one way or another and researching it more might take you down a pointless rabbit hole.
> 
> My dog does not have the triggers anymore. He's in all sort of exciting situations, too. He also does not jump on us, ever, unless we ask him to. Now when we cue him to jump, he will jump on us politely and methodically. While for some dogs, there is an underlying issue that needs to be treated w/medication, for most, like mine, it's just age-related and due to an inexperienced owner.
> 
> I didn't find the article I sent to you until recently (someone else in a group posted it because they were having this same issue) but I think it's full of fantastic advice. We DID stop taking our dog on walks for a few months back then. We stopped because it made sense to us even though it goes against almost everything else you will ever read (except for that article)!
> 
> I did play with my dog a lot. We now have other dogs so he plays with them...I don't do it as much anymore. Somewhere on this board I wrote a post about how to play tug with RULES. Rules are key to a good game. Playing this way helps you bring the arousal level up and down. You teach him to have self-control this way.
> 
> So, my suggestions would be:
> (1) Don't freak out. This is annoying, bratty behavior but it is not aggression. Stay calm. And yes, I saw the video of your dog!
> (2) Prevention is always best because you do not want a dog to practice unwanted behaviors. Stop taking your dog on walks! You can do very short ones. Stay close to your house. They should be short enough that the arousal behavior doesn't ever have a chance to begin. You can make the walks you do take training ones and time to sniff on cue. Additionally, practice walks INSIDE the house, and when he's perfect there, then the driveway, eventually the first block, etc. Eventually you can go back to long walks when he is over this hump. You will have to go slow to go fast.
> (3) Use the exercises and training in the link I sent. Very valuable advice.
> (4) You can also get a dog treadmill. While this does not take the place of a dog going outside on a walk, it does help a dog learn to focus, and get tired out in a good way.
> (5) If your dog starts to do this inside, I would retire him to an expen or crate for 10 minutes, or leave the room. Playtime is done. You aren't punishing him, you are just saying...I am not playing this way with you. You broke the rules.
> (6) Teach him to jump on cue when he's calm.
> 
> I PROMISE this will get better and you will end up with a fabulous dog. I wish I could clone mine!


Thanks so much for your responses and words of encouragement. I really value them since I don't think there's that many people that have gone through the same situations with their dogs. Did you stick with positive reinforcement throughout? Or did you end up having to use some corrections? We tried to minimize the corrections and have found that he doesn't respond that well to corrections (although we haven't done anything really harsh) but when we're not seeing improvement, we have wondered whether we need to employ harsher methods as some people did in this thread. But if positive reinforcement can be successful then we will stick with it.

For rule #5, when you say that you put your dog in the crate/expen, did you just pull him in there and then close the door behind or did you still treat him for going in the crate regardless of whether it was a 'punishment' or not?

When the attacks happen, did you have a go to strategy for how to stop them once your dog was in the middle of one on a walk/in the backyard, etc.? Tie him up? Tug toy?

Also, I feel like we struggle with what an average day should look like for a dog since we are inexperienced dog owners. Are we doing too much or doing too little based on what your dog needed? Here's an approximate schedule of what we've been doing:

*7 am:* backyard potty, short walk for 15 mins, game of 'find it', feed from puzzle ball _or_ feed breakfast near/in car then Karen Overall’s relaxation protocol for 10 mins; then ignore until 11 am
*11 am:* backyard for potty, quick/easy training inside (3 mins), play with commands (e.g. tug of war/find it for 10 mins), Kong to relax/chill outside on front porch and get treat party every time anything passes.
*4 pm:* Go somewhere (ideally without dogs) if possible to explore (20-30 mins), play (fetch for 10 mins) OR if not going anywhere, short walk (15 mins), quick/easy training (3 mins), play in backyard (fetch for 5 mins), dinner in backyard then relax inside/treats for going on place and ignore until 7-8 pm
*8 pm:* Walk/sniffing outside for potty (10-15 mins), chew/Kong in crate or place (30 mins+), relax until bedtime around 10 pm (which means a 10 pm-7 am sleep in his pen… is 9 hours too much?)
What was the magic formula schedule for your dog?


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## abbysunnymom

My 11 month old golden girl, Meadow, made me cry today. We were playing ball and i had to fish it out of the garden for her. Before i turned around she was on me, grabbing and biting and snarling like a crazed animal. Her tail is wagging but she is growling. She wraps her legs around me and bites my hands and scratches my arms. sometimes she body slams me from behind or from the side when i dont see her coming. She has been like this from the beginning at 8 weeks, strongly biting on our hands and arms, i mean. We hired a trainer to watch and give us advice but were not sure it was the right advice: grab by scruff of the neck, or snap her martingale collar, or pinch her lip. she was very young, only 3 or 4 months old then and all these things just seemed to make her worse. We took her to class, with that trainer, and she was able to see the arousal biting and rebellion over several months. She called it puppy brain. she showed us how to walk her with the martingale collar. She taught us about place and touch. She also said Meadow is one of the most challenging dogs she’s seen. Smart and high drive?

Here we are all these months later. Class was cancelled months ago because of the pandemic. We havent been able to take her to see other dogs or to class or to socialize her anymore. She has gotten worse about arousal biting and, because my husband was home for three weeks in quarantine, she’s now frantic if he goes outside without her. She cant go out front because she’s not trustworthy, has pulled out of her collar before. Nothing we taught her works when she’s frenzied. If he goes out the door to the garage, she barks incessantly and goes to the windows to locate him. She’s even gone round the backyard looking at the fence line making me think she is trying to find an escape to go find him. She gets hysterical when he mows the lawn. I have to put her in the kennel. She also got hysterical when i got in the spa the other night and she was inside with my husband. She was climbing on the sliding glass door. I think she wants in the spa.

I feel like a failure even though i started reading tips on bite inhibition and training before she was even born. She hurts me in other ways too, she plows into me all the time and steps on my feet, sits on me sometimes. Im covered in bruises. We had two goldens before Meadow And they were both far mellower. Neither would have ever bitten us like she does after those puppy shark teeth were gone. Any mouthing was strictly gentle play. Lots of noise but no pressure applied. Meadow’s big teeth hurt.

We lost our Sunny, golden boy, to cancer at 8 yrs old in 2016 and i waited a year after losing my 14 yr old girl golden, Abby Rose, in 2018, to even think of getting another. I knew I couldn't replace them and i wanted to be sure I wasn't trying to. We knew we were starting fresh but this girl is very hard to handle. From the beginning she has stiffened and thrown her ears back when we try to pet her, we watched her on videos from the day she was born and the breeder says she thought this pup was one of the mellow ones. As she’s gotten older, she will accept positive attention more and will even snuggle, that’s why it makes me so upset when she goes off on me or my husband. By the way, when she goes to the Vet, she LOVES the vet techs and goes in willingly, pulling them behind her and wagging her tail. We couldn’t believe she let them remove some stitches And trim her nails. She bites me as I’m trying to brush her! 

She‘ll he spayed next month. We are wondering if our other girl was so mild because she was spayed at 4 months. If it doesn’t calm her, we’ll be looking for another trainer when our area opens back up. if you made it to the end of this long post, please don’t tell me we haven't been authoritative enough, or not taught her who’s boss. It really does seem like it’s her brain. The trainer is probably right. Puppy brain. 🙁


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## cwag

I'm sorry you're having such a tough time with Meadow. It's not good to have a dog who hurts you. The problems sound like more than "puppy brain." You might want a consult with a veterinary behaviorist before the separation anxiety/frenzy behavior becomes habitual. American College of Veterinary Behaviorists
There have been quite a few threads from people having miserable issues with puppies who got help and with a lot of work were able to see big improvements.


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## abbysunnymom

cwag said:


> I'm sorry you're having such a tough time with Meadow. It's not good to have a dog who hurts you. The problems sound like more than "puppy brain." You might want a consult with a veterinary behaviorist before the separation anxiety/frenzy behavior becomes habitual. American College of Veterinary Behaviorists
> There have been quite a few threads from people having miserable issues with puppies who got help and with a lot of work were able to see big improvements.


A vet behaviorist? I’ve never heard of one. I can’t imagine we have one in my area (a suburb) it’s mostly petsmart trainers and a couple of those doggie boot camp places. I’ll go google that term.


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## cwag

If you click on that link you can find a way to search for one in your area.


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## abbysunnymom

abbysunnymom said:


> A vet behaviorist? I’ve never heard of one. I can’t imagine we have one in my area (a suburb) it’s mostly petsmart trainers and a couple of those doggie boot camp places. I’ll go google that term.


Ok... 50 miles away there are two vets listed. She wouldn’t exhibit that behavior unless we were home. She loves the Vet.


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## cwag

Maybe just call and discuss the situation. They aren't really like going to a vets office. They usually come to your home but you would probably have to pay for travel time. Or maybe they would know of a more skilled trainer.


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## abbysunnymom

cwag said:


> Maybe just call and discuss the situation. They aren't really like going to a vets office. They usually come to your home but you would probably have to pay for travel time. Or maybe they would know of a more skilled trainer.


We’re going to take her to our vet about this but now the pandemic has us unable to for now. they’ll take the dog in for treatment. We wait in the car. we should be opening back up soon. im assuming it would be the same in Los Angeles. We’re still kind of shut down here.


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## abbysunnymom

cwag said:


> Maybe just call and discuss the situation. They aren't really like going to a vets office. They usually come to your home but you would probably have to pay for travel time. Or maybe they would know of a more skilled trainer.


Thank you for the link. Lots of good information.


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## jomiel

abbysunnymom said:


> Ok... 50 miles away there are two vets listed. She wouldn’t exhibit that behavior unless we were home. She loves the Vet.


If you can get your husband to film a video of you guys together, or vice versa, that would really help. It's much more informative for the trainer or the vet to see the video and the dog in action. When I asked our trainer about Tomo's dog reactivity and showed her a video of him dragging me around to visit other dogs, she asked me when in the video I thought he noticed the other dog - and it was like 10 seconds ahead of when I thought it happened. We were able to view the video over and over again, and talked about the behaviors and training we could do.

When I had contacted the vet behaviorist at UC Davis before about our old dog, they asked for a video too.

Tomo at 10-11 months was really tough for me too, he grew full size and was large enough to really hurt when he played rough. I had a ton of bruises and torn clothing. He's much better now at 14 months, though he's still a challenge on the leash with pulling.


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## abbysunnymom

jomiel said:


> If you can get your husband to film a video of you guys together, or vice versa, that would really help. It's much more informative for the trainer or the vet to see the video and the dog in action. When I asked our trainer about Tomo's dog reactivity and showed her a video of him dragging me around to visit other dogs, she asked me when in the video I thought he noticed the other dog - and it was like 10 seconds ahead of when I thought it happened. We were able to view the video over and over again, and talked about the behaviors and training we could do.
> 
> When I had contacted the vet behaviorist at UC Davis before about our old dog, they asked for a video too.
> 
> Tomo at 10-11 months was really tough for me too, he grew full size and was large enough to really hurt when he played rough. I had a ton of bruises and torn clothing. He's much better now at 14 months, though he's still a challenge on the leash with pulling.


Thank you. I have a couple of older videos. I’ll take a new one this weekend. i haven’t been able to take one of her and I while it’s happening because I’m too busy trying to get to safety! I’m glad your dog has calmed down.


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## Rjan1967

We have a little luck with the gentle leader on walks. Our girl is only 4.5 months old but the gentle leader over her muzzle doesn't allow for too much biting and if she is jumping - we hold her to the side and lift up so her head is pointing up and can't bite. When she settles and is calm we reward her with a treat. She is still very much a work in progress. We are also still dealing with the teething biting but slowly making some progress. I've actually resorted to using a mesh muzzle for short periods. We are now at the point where sometimes the threat of it stops the biting. I can then redirect her. There are times when she has bitten us very hard and broken the skin and caused bleeding. She also chases my cats and bites which I really can't allow. This week I was trying to grab her as she chased one of my cats and I fell and tore my hamstring - thankfully not bad enough for surgery but am off work for awhile. I am really discouraged right now I have to say.


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## Rjan1967

I was also going to add we have some luck too with her carrying something like a stick. We live beside a park, so we often start with that and she carries it on her walk. This helps to decrease the biting as well.


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## abbysunnymom

Rjan1967 said:


> We have a little luck with the gentle leader on walks. Our girl is only 4.5 months old but the gentle leader over her muzzle doesn't allow for too much biting and if she is jumping - we hold her to the side and lift up so her head is pointing up and can't bite. When she settles and is calm we reward her with a treat. She is still very much a work in progress. We are also still dealing with the teething biting but slowly making some progress. I've actually resorted to using a mesh muzzle for short periods. We are now at the point where sometimes the threat of it stops the biting. I can then redirect her. There are times when she has bitten us very hard and broken the skin and caused bleeding. She also chases my cats and bites which I really can't allow. This week I was trying to grab her as she chased one of my cats and I fell and tore my hamstring - thankfully not bad enough for surgery but am off work for awhile. I am really discouraged right now I have to say.


Thank you. I bought a gentle leader and I have t tried it because she resists is even putting on her halter or collar. I watched the video of how to introduce her to it. I even considered a muzzle for times I know she will bite but we could t imagine trying to put one on her. She’s very reactive!


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## abbysunnymom

Thanks. Yes, we’re trying to teach her to hold and carry because it’s obvious she needs to mouth. we don’t walk her right now. Working on getting some compliance first. It’s like she’s a teenager. Won’t listen to anything when she’s distracted. Doing backyard walks for now. The Park just reopened this week. That might be an option soon. Lots to smell. 



Rjan1967 said:


> I was also going to add we have some luck too with her carrying something like a stick. We live beside a park, so we often start with that and she carries it on her walk. This helps to decrease the biting as well.


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## abbysunnymom

🙂


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## milothegolden

I can't believe this forum exists! We have been struggling with this problem for a 3-4 months, and I have just been thinking that either there's something wrong with our dog or there's something wrong with us. Goldens are known for being such sweet friendly dogs, I kept thinking that we had somehow broken ours. I had been desperately googling for solutions when I finally came across the term "arousal biting," and found hundreds of posts describing exactly the behaviours that we are seeing in our dog! I can't even explain how much relief I feel already just knowing that this is a recognized behaviour! 

Our 11 month old golden is the sweetest and most wonderful dog most of the time, and we are lucky that his biting behaviour is limited only to when we go for walks or play outside. But walks with him used to be my favourite part of every day, and now I find myself dreading them, and have been coming home in tears more often than I care to admit. I feel so helpless when he goes into that biting mode, and I get so frustrated. I feel really self-conscious when others are around too, and find myself walking in back alleys and remote paths to try to avoid running into any neighbours. 

We just got our dog neutered, and are (perhaps foolishly) hoping that that will make at least some difference. We are also enroling him in puppy school, which he wasn't able to attend earlier due to the pandemic. We are also working on taking a calm approach to the biting, and trying very hard not to show frustration or anger when he gets out of control (sometimes easier said than done). I've found that, when we are able to coordinate our schedules, it goes a lot better when my husband and I walk him together, because then we don't seem to get as frustrated, and it's a bit easier to manage him and redirect him to another activity or a treat when we have 2 sets of hands to work with. This isn't always possible, but when we can manage it, it goes better.

I am reading a lot on this thread that too much exercise can be a trigger. But we are both working full time and so he really only gets 30-60 minutes of walking per day, plus maybe a 20 minute game of ball in the yard. Is it really possible that this is too much for him? What are some other ways that we can keep him healthy and appropriately stimulated/tired out without walking him? We are open to any and all suggestions!

Thank all of you for sharing your experiences here- I am SO grateful to have found this thread. I feel so much better just knowing that we are not alone in experiencing this, and feeling cautiously optimistic that things can get better.


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## GoldenGirlMinnie

@milothegolden I followed this thread closely when my dog was <1 year old, and a lot of the suggestions helped immensely. Once she hit 1, her overarousal biting became limited to walks and playing in the park as well. What has worked for us is to stop walking for exercise/fun. Right now, she walks only for training and to practice heeling, so probably 10 minutes per day. The rest of my outdoor time with her, we play fetch. Part of her biting seemed to be frustration during walks when she wanted to be more active. She still does nip when fetching, but significantly less and its typically a sign that she is tuckered out and needs to go home to nap. Another thing that has worked is to intentionally rile her up at home to the point where she's about to start mouthing, and then quickly get her to do a reliable command (paw, for us) to redirect. Practicing getting excited and then calming down without mouthing has made an incredible difference. If you've taught your dog the name of a toy, having them go get that toy right when you sense they're about to start mouthing works well too. I still will play how she likes (rougher, wrestly) but ONLY if she has that toy in her mouth. Now, when she feels excited and wants to mouth, she will often redirect herself to that toy (or honestly any piece of fabric nearby- couch, blanket, backpack.. as long as its not clothing!).


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## milothegolden

@GoldenGirlMinni
That is a great tip, thanks! I'll definitely try that. After reading in the forum yesterday about trying to redirect to a command as soon as you see the first signs of arousal, I've been trying that with Milo today, and it has actually worked great! So far just practicing in the backyard, but every time he starts to get overexcited and gives me that "look," like he's about to go nuts, I redirect him into a "sit stay," which he knows very well, make him pause for 10 seconds, and then give him a treat. It actually worked really well! Sometimes we would need to do this 2-3 times in a row before he would really move on to something else and calm down, but it's still working better than anything else I've tried. 

I'm curious where you play fetch with your dog? As you know, Goldens can RUN and our yard isn't big enough to do a really stimulating game of fetch. We used to take him to a field near our house and let him go off leash to fetch if nobody else was around, but I don't want to do that any more until this biting is more under control. Dog parks are ok, but he usually just gets distracted by the other dogs, and it's too far away for us to access it on a daily basis. Have you found any specific public spaces that work well for your dog for non-walking activity?


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## GoldenGirlMinnie

I take her to a nearby field and have her drag a short leash off a harness while we fetch. She only mouthes me, so I'm not worried about her doing it to someone else, and we've worked a lot on not running up to people or dogs we see at the field. It took close to a year of work before she could reliably ignore other dogs and people while fetching though. I find the benefit of some longgg throws (I have one of those chuckit tossers and really throw far for her) outweighs any negatives. If she does start to jump and bite, I can just step on her leash quickly. Personally, I put a higher importance on getting her good exercise than I do on perfect behavior while she's young, so I still take her to the field even though she acts up the most there, likely because its the most exciting thing for her and she still has trouble controlling what she does with all that excitement. It's good training too.


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