# Spay/Neuter Interesting Article



## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

*Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Helps to confirm my feelings about having Griff neutered AFTER he is 2.
*


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Nice article, but I will say all of my dogs have been spay/neutered before a year old and all of them have lived long healthy lives and had none of the issues they mention....


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I wonder what the stats are for dogs who have been spayed or neutered and lived long lives? There are some variables to consider though. 

I had a Cocker live 17 years after being spayed pretty early, but she did go through her first heat.

I had a terrier live 16 years after being spayed at 6 months.

How many studies have been done? 
What were the results of each study?
What breeds were included?
Who funded the study?
And last but not least (just kidding) what did the participant owners feed their dogs???


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Kim...All of my dogs lived to be 15-16 years old..... and it was both small and large dogs.....


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Thank you for that very informative article!

Jazzys Mom


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

That group, the NAIA also SUPPORTS ear cropping, tail docking, declawing of cats...and most disgustingly........DEBARKING. Sickening.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Maggies mom said:


> Nice article, but I will say all of my dogs have been spay/neutered before a year old and all of them have lived long healthy lives and had none of the issues they mention....


 
Ditto. I find any group that would support debarking dogs (they call it "bark softening") has nothing valid to offer.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Great article-I had forgotten about it. I first saw it when I joined NAIA a little while back.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Tahnee GR said:


> Great article-I had forgotten about it. I first saw it when I joined NAIA a little while back.


Do you support debarking dogs?


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I LOVE Daisy's bark. She's got a huge bark!! She doesn't bark too much but when she does, I know it's my cue to pay attention.

I was just reading about debarking. It doesn't actually remove the bark, just makes it quieter so it doesn't carry as far.

Still, I woudn't want to do that to my dog. I totally rely on her bark, it brings me great comfort and peace of mind.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Jo Ellen said:


> I LOVE Daisy's bark. She's got a huge bark!! She doesn't bark too much but when she does, I know it's my cue to pay attention.
> 
> I was just reading about debarking. It doesn't actually remove the bark, just makes it quieter so it doesn't carry as far.
> 
> Still, I woudn't want to do that to my dog. I totally rely on her bark, it brings me great comfort and peace of mind.


I can't imagine debarking a dog. I think it's cruel. One of my friends has a terrier who was debarked...she is a rescue, her bark sounds like a horrible strain. It definitely isn't just softened. I can't fathom doing that.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Yikes! I remember a movie with a GR that was debarked because they lived in what was supposed to be the perfect neighborhood. It was a weird movie and I hated when that dog tried to bark and I know it was only a movie!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I agree. I think there must be profound psychological consequences for doing that to a dog. I know I'm opening myself up for all kinds of flap saying that ... like dogs don't have a psyche. But I'm sure they do. I would no more rob Daisy of her bark than I would cut off her tail. Some things a dog is just supposed to have, yes ?

Yes.


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## justmejanis (Feb 25, 2007)

I worked for a vet, it is not pleasant surgery. I believe many bark out of boredom, but that is not reason to put them through surgery. Unnecessary barking can be corrected with training.

I too love my dogs barking. We live on a quiet dirt road, we get more horse traffric than car traffic. Of course mine have to have a barking fit over it, but it is really not unnecessary barking. There are strange things coming down our road, and they are my informers!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I agree w/this article and I think mutilating dogs for human convienience and laziness is grotesque... that includes debarking, spaying, neutering, cutting off any body part... if you can't keep your dog from reproducing at will, do us all a favor and don't own one at all. 
I don't care about the group or if I agree w/them or not. I DO agree w/the article. That said, I am not totally against spaying a female that is MATURE for health reasons, pyo, mammary cancer- but there is no excuse to neuter a male IMO unless he is a monorchid.


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## Luvinmygoldens (Jul 16, 2007)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> That group, the NAIA also SUPPORTS ear cropping, tail docking, declawing of cats...and most disgustingly........DEBARKING. Sickening.


DEBARKING???!!!???? I agree with you, that's sickening!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I hate my dogs barking, I simply train them they are NOT allowed to bark unless I tell them too... but I have quiet breeds. Whippets never bark, Greyhounds rarely do, and most GRs don't either. I have had dozens come here through rescue and virtually none ever barked.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Why is it horrible and cruel to perform minor surgery on a dog's throat but it's totally okay, and even praised, to routinely perform major, painful abdominal surgery on female dogs and alter the female dog's entire physiology, growth, etc?

Double standard? You bet...

(for the record I am against both)


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

I didn't even think goldens knew how to bark?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Chrissy and Keira don't


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

I get an occasional Roo Roo, and that's it.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Daisy does!!  I have a great deal of respect for her bark. She never overuses it.

Not allowed to bark, ACC? What about alarm type barking ? Surely we don't have to give our dogs permission to warn us of impending harm, especially since they often will sense such things long before we do.

I'm single, I live alone. Well, my son is here, sometimes. But if it weren't for Daisy's bark, I'd be very scared. If she's not barking, all is well!!

:wave:


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Well mine don't bark anyway, even if somebody walks in uninvited... any ideas how to teach them to?


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

???

I never had to teach Daisy to bark. Never had to teach her not to bark.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Good article! Some of it is based on studies of Goldens...the GR Health Study from Perdue. 

I just posted a link to this same study in another post. Sorry. Didn't see it here until after I had done that! 

This isn't "just an article" by someone blowing smoke. The article has a two and a half page list of Veterinary references of studies done on this question.

Ancedotal evidence is good, because it helps to substantiate the need for further study. But research into the questions is the only way to truly get the answers.

Many will say the dog was spayed/neutered early with none of the problems listed. Others will say the dog was spayed/neutered late and DOES have one or more of these problems. Only statistical data will show the facts as they relate to "the masses". 

It's kind of like the stock market, with you having insider information. Are you gonna play or pass??? :lol:

Also.....debarking is nothing I'd ever consider for my animals, however I know that it's being done. The proponents have "rational" arguments, but I still disagree with it. 

That said........if I ever wanted to hear a dog NOT bark in my life, it would be Addie. Good thing we live in the country. She's a barker....and that's one reason she lives with us, and not her former family. She barks about EVERYTHING!!! She's a great tattle tale.....and an alarm system, but for heaven's sake, I really don't need the alarm going off because a cricket hops across the floor, or the dogs are swimming in the pond!! Sheesh!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Tattle tale, ha ha that's cute


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Nope mine just don't. I BELIEVE the reason is because my alpha male that all my dogs fawn over and follow like lemmings, a Whippet, has never barked in his LIFETIME, once. He's ten... even "problem" barkers dumped with me bc of it never bark in my house, and I don't have to teach them. ????


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Why is it horrible and cruel to perform minor surgery on a dog's throat but it's totally okay, and even praised, to routinely perform major, painful abdominal surgery on female dogs and alter the female dog's entire physiology, growth, etc?
> 
> Double standard? You bet...
> 
> (for the record I am against both)


For me the problem of pet overpopulation would be the reason. To see so many unwanted animals suffer is worse. I could NEVER advocate for not spaying and neutering.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

vrocco1 said:


> I didn't even think goldens knew how to bark?


Marty and Ruthie both bark a lot when someone approaches our house. I like that they do. Marty's bark is the loudest of all my dogs.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Well IMO people who can't stop their dogs from breeding should not be allowed to own animals- a solution that would solve that problem. I have five dogs and have had at least three and as many as ten for the past decade, usually intact, and have never had an oops litter. Sure, it takes a little work- but it's NOT rocket science. In Europe, dogs are rarely altered- some countries even think it's cruel- yet they do not have homeless dogs like we do. Their attitude towards dogs is totally different. YOU and I are not the problem- I know that- but the masses... ugh... in their case maybe spaying and neutering is the only answer... which is sad... it has become the social norm to surgically change our dogs' physiology to make up for lazy idiots... sad indeed.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I agree w/this article and I think mutilating dogs for human convienience and laziness is grotesque... that includes debarking, spaying, neutering, cutting off any body part... if you can't keep your dog from reproducing at will, do us all a favor and don't own one at all.
> I don't care about the group or if I agree w/them or not. I DO agree w/the article. That said, I am not totally against spaying a female that is MATURE for health reasons, pyo, mammary cancer- but there is no excuse to neuter a male IMO unless he is a monorchid.



---> Thank you for this helpful post! <----


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Ah okay so there are select times I would and I WOULD have absolutely neutered Mlo... but you know what I'm sayin! I know ya do.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> YOU and I are not the problem- I know that- but the masses... ugh... in their case maybe spaying and neutering is the only answer...


Yes! Let's spay and neuter the masses! THAT is absolutely the ANSWER!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Isn't THAT the truth!!! LOL I already know *I* should not be reproducing


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Isn't THAT the truth!!! LOL I already know *I* should not be reproducing


Hmm...well...it seems like you've found a very handy solution to that problem (same sex relationship). Automatic birth control, eh? LOL


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

HA yeah, and if I was ever w/a man he'd HAVE to be "fixed" LOL


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> HA yeah, and if I was ever w/a man he'd HAVE to be "fixed" LOL


LOL! Good plan! I wish I could get my hubby fixed...but alas...he's very "old school" about it.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

We have two barkers.....the rest are "normal". The two are Ray, a blind Golden. He barks like a fool at the same flower pot every day at dusk. He's been doing it for, oh, about four years now. He barks if he wants to walk through the room and a dog is lying on the floor in his way. He barks whenever he "discovers" that one of his housemates has suddenly appeared in his "space"...even if they've been there for hours. It's a nerve racking endless bark. He can go on for an hour, unless you go and get him...and show him what to do to get out of his "predicament".

Addie...is a Newf. Our other Newfs rarely bark. Molly has barked two times in three years. Mira barks at fish when they won't get close....about once a day. Chance doesn't bark. Addie.............ugh.

If you can train them not to bark, I'd love to know how. She's been here two years and NOTHING has worked. She barks when the others play, she barks when she sees a bug, she barks when a car passes by on the road (about 1/3 mile away), she barks, barks, barks. She is better in the house.....and is getting a little better outside, as long as the others are sleeping, or lounging. 

A barker will drive you up a wall. Period. It's amazing how far that sound carries. We have 35 acres (did have 50) and can be on the far side of the NEIGHBOR's property and STILL hear her.


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## No Golden (May 21, 2007)

I find it completely & totally INSANE to NOT fix your pet.....whatever it may be!!!!

Sorry, but wayyyyy too many times I've had to choose which dogs to kill(and once held a puppy while she was KILLED) because of overpopulation. The only way to STOP THE NEEDLESS killing is by spaying/neutering all pets!! (I do not believe the people who say "I won't let it happen." There is one way to ensure you will not, spay & neuter!)

:no: To me, it is nuts not to fix your pet. I just, I am aghast that people wouldn't do such a simple surgery....just one time, to make their lives safer & easier. I don't care what you say, I will never change my mind. Once you have to choose & kill an innocent pet because someone swore they'd never let their dog get pregnant, you will be changed forever. I've killed more innocents that I care to remember, but I can tell you how old they were, what day & time they died, what they looked like(I have pictures of them all), who was the vet tech who was there, why they died, & whatever histroy I had on them.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

The Article does raise points and facts that can't be ignored. There are long term health concerns with Spay/Neuter and they become greater the earlier a pup is altered. Gone are the days when people would recommend spay/neuter to "Improve" the health of a pet. Now there is evidence that you're kind of ****** if you do, and ****** if you don't. 

With that kind of information I would choose to leave them the way they came from the factory, and let nature take its course. 

It looks like it's going to be more of a balancing act in timing for those who wish to spay/neuter. Several Vets I have contact with are now recommending two months after the first heat cycle for females and after age two for males (assuming a client is choosing to alter their pet). 

The Veterinary profession is going to have a difficult time with the ethics involved with this issue over the next few years. If they have a client who they know will be an irresponsible owner, it will be difficult to NOT recommend early spay/neuter, while at the same time realizing they may be pre-disposing the dog to serious health problems down the road.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I have held multiple rescue dogs while they were euthanized, and I still don't choose to alter my own pets without a good reason. I am nuts, but not because of that  They don't contribute to overpopulation. I don't breed them.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

It's called crates, doors, and common sense- the last of which plenty of people do indeed lack...


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

BTW, Welcome to GRF Swampcollie  It's about time you made it over here.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Agreed!!! Swampcollie rules!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Good to see you here, SC! If my Vet tells me to wait next time around, I'd wait. It's hard when you live in a household where some people don't agree with limitations, rules, etc...When we got our Cocker, she was not spayed, but DH didn't see the harm in putting her in a fenced yard ALONE when in heat. I told him to loudly, to go and get her NOW! He walked out to see the "act!" So, for some of us, it's not about our having common sense, it's about the other half not having it??? LOL


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Well lord knows you can't train a MAN


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Well lord knows you can't train a MAN


But, but, I live with him...


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I have held multiple rescue dogs while they were euthanized, and I still don't choose to alter my own pets without a good reason. I am nuts, but not because of that  They don't contribute to overpopulation. I don't breed them.


The problem is, idiots who ARE irresponsible will hear an argument like this and go "umm...yeah, what SHE said! See, I'm not altering MY dog!" which inevitably results in more unwanted animals. I think it should be discussed very carefully as it could create a false sense of reason for people who are just too lazy to properly prevent unwanted litters. You throw around phrases like "mutilating" in regards to altering and you'll get ignorant people thinking they will be hurting their dog if they choose to spay or neuter...which will throw us backwards in the efforts to prevent pet overpopulation. There may be people reading this now who will misinterpret the entire message you are sending...and just settle on the "oh it must hurt" part simply because they aren't aware of how easily unwanted litters can happen.


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## No Golden (May 21, 2007)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> The problem is, idiots who ARE irresponsible will hear an argument like this and go "umm...yeah, what SHE said! See, I'm not altering MY dog!" which inevitably results in more unwanted animals. I think it should be discussed very carefully as it could create a false sense of reason for people who are just too lazy to properly prevent unwanted litters. You throw around phrases like "mutilating" in regards to altering and you'll get ignorant people thinking they will be hurting their dog if they choose to spay or neuter...which will throw us backwards in the efforts to prevent pet overpopulation. There may be people reading this now who will misinterpret the entire message you are sending...and just settle on the "oh it must hurt" part simply because they aren't aware of how easily unwanted litters can happen.


My thinking as well.

Not to mention, if only "very responsible" people who wouldn't let their pet get "knocked up" could own dogs....how would you determine who is responsible? What happens when someone turns out to be "not responsible" & their dog is pregnant....that kills shelter animals!

No matter which way you look at it, IMO, all studies on spaying/neutering are off. It is hard to prove either way. I just cannot imagine the mental aspect for the dog going into heat. I know of one shelter dog who went into heat & mutilated herself to the point that when we found her, she had be to euthanized!! It was her first heat, so we had no idea that would happen. If she had been spayed pediatrically, she wouldn't have had to die.

I am with Sunshine Goldens, I could never advocate not spaying/neutering. 

The definition of MUTILATE:
*. *To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.
*2. *To disfigure by damaging irreparably: _mutilate a statue._ See Synonyms at batter1.
*3. *To make imperfect by excising or altering parts

Those are not essential parts. An essential part is something a create cannot live without. It is not disfiguring. And you do not make them imperfect.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

No Golden said:


> I just cannot imagine the mental aspect for the dog going into heat. I know of one shelter dog who went into heat & mutilated herself to the point that when we found her, she had be to euthanized!! It was her first heat, so we had no idea that would happen. If she had been spayed pediatrically, she wouldn't have had to die.


Well, I'd be really interested to hear THAT story. How did coming into season cause a bitch to "mutilate" herself to the point that she had to be euthanized. And who determined that it was her season that caused the self-mutilation?


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> The problem is, idiots who ARE irresponsible will hear an argument like this and go "umm...yeah, what SHE said! See, I'm not altering MY dog!"


Never argue with an idiot. You won't change his mind, and he'll still be an idiot.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

So I guess you don't consider your HORMONE REGULATING organs and reproductive parts essential? When are you getting spayed?


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> So I guess you don't consider your HORMONE REGULATING organs and reproductive parts essential? When are you getting spayed?


***Thank you for this helpful post!***


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

For the record- I have three altered pets, one was my choice and I deeply regret it (and NOT bc I want to breed him). I also wish my Greyhound had not been neutered (also NOT because I want to breed him- I absolutely do NOT). Chrissy I am okay with as I do think an aging bitch is better off spayed, for her HEALTH, not because I am too stupid to keep her from breeding with my Whippets.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Reading the replies here, I suppose I can give you, Lisa, the credit and say that most average Joes SHOULD neuter their pets. That said, I just think people should research and learn about a species and how to maintain it, in its natural form, in their homes BEFORE buying one. Would keep a lot of dogs out of rescue- on many levels.


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## justmejanis (Feb 25, 2007)

I see the arguements from both sides. Unfortuantely a HUGE amount of the pet owners are not responsible. Sadly this is a fact and contributes to the huge amount of over population and euthenasia. 

Case in point, my idiot neighbors. Trashy mom gives 11 year old child a puppy for Christmas, lab mix. She is kept tied outside all the time. Unfenced out here in the boonies. Poor child really loves the pup but cannot be responsible for everything. Surprise, surprise, tied up 6 months old dog becomes pregnant. So what do they do? The EASY solution of course...she gives birth and mom and babies all go to the pound! Now it is no longer their problem! 

Truly responsible owners will NOT allow their unaltered dogs to breed, and that is great. Sadly they are not the majority! I have no problem with people who do not alter pets and ARE responsible. I just wish that everyone was as careful.

By the way ACC, I am spayed! LOL, and I bred reponsibly before my spay. My hormone regulating parts were really a mess. I am much better now!  It really wasn't traumatic and I certainly don't feel as though I was butchered.....


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Well you had a medical reason 

BTW your neighbors should be spayed, if not euthanized


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## justmejanis (Feb 25, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Well you had a medical reason
> 
> BTW your neighbors should be spayed, if not euthanized


They just keep getting more dogs and recycling them....


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

What about that intact male who escapes the yard for the first time in 6 years and there's a dog in heat up the street? 

I'm just thinking...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Thinking is good... but I don't have a yard so there's no chance of my dogs escaping a yard. When I did have a yard, I was with my dogs any time they were outside. So I would have SEEN them escape.

If my dog were to somehow escape and knock up a bitch, I'd gladly pay for mis-mating shots AND bitch out the bitch owner for leaving her outside alone.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Okay...what about a child who has left the door open a bit too long? I've solved that issue at my home. 

My two have a fenced in yard and I'm out there with them all the time. However, I know Tucker could scale the fence if he wanted to, but he respects his boundries. I'm just not sure he would do that if a dog in heat was, let's say, being walked by our home? Maybe I don't know enough about bringing up and unspayed female???


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

All life is a calculated risk, for sure. I don't have children, so I don't know about that. I do know that millions of Europeans do not alter and have no problems.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> So I guess you don't consider your HORMONE REGULATING organs and reproductive parts essential? When are you getting spayed?


Is this being asked of me??


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> All life is a calculated risk, for sure. I don't have children, so I don't know about that. I do know that millions of Europeans do not alter and have no problems.


Is there data on this? I have read articles about dogs being routinely dumped "on holiday" when some Europeans travel abroad to summer elsewhere. Those animals are left to forage for themselves and allowed to breed.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

No it wasn't directed at you, but rather the NoGolden person who was saying I'm nuts for not neutering my show dogs who do not breed.

Well, there are NOT homeless animals by the thousands in Europe like there are here... not even close. I was routinely abused verbally by Europeans when I lived there bc I had a spayed dog. They also thought I was cruel for leashing my dogs.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Kimm said:


> Okay...what about a child who has left the door open a bit too long?


This and some of the other comments in this thread strike a pet peeve of mine. 

Climbing up on soapbox

IMHDAO It is immoral and unethical to cut into a normal healthy animal to remove normal healthy organs and tissue simply for the convenience of the owners. That's why the vast majority of spay/neuter procedures are done in this country, to enable the owners to be irresponsible and not have to face the repercussions involved for their irresponsible acts.

The pet overpopulation problem is just one of many symptoms of our failure to hold pet owners accountable for nuisances and damages that their animals cause. If you get the irresponsible behaviour of Owners under control, you won't have a pet overpopulation problem. 

Pet Owners should be required by law to keep their animals under control at all times, and face the consequences (restitution for all damages incurred plus stiff fines and jail time) if they don't live up to their responsibilities. Make that the law and the pet overpopulation problem will resolve itself without the need to mutilate sound healthy animals. 

Pet ownership will become too risky for those who aren't good at living up to their responsibilities. 

The Europeans have found ways to enforce responsible owner behaviour without trying to surgically alter every pet. There is no reason we can't do the same and stop this endless spay/neuter farce. 



Do you know where your pets are this very minute, and what they are doing? 

You should if you're a responsible pet owner!!!!

.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> Do you know where your pets are this very minute, and what they are doing?
> 
> You should if you're a responsible pet owner!!!!
> 
> .


I know where mine are. So tell me, how do the Europeans do it? How do you do it SC? How does ACC do it? That's what I want to hear. I don't even let my guys off lead if they're not with me in the yard. Remember me??? LOL I was also give the title as alarmist, which is the truth.

Another question. Do you have children, SC?


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Swampcollie said:


> This and some of the other comments in this thread strike a pet peeve of mine.
> 
> Climbing up on soapbox
> 
> ...


I understand what you guys are saying here, but can't get behind promoting NOT altering the general pet population.......it's not realistic to think that a law would fix the problem and how many unwanted pets would die as a result? Murder is illegal...and those laws don't deter some people.

If you are a responsible owner who makes the EDUCATED decision to keep your pet intact, fine. But I can't advocate this position while millions of unwanted animals die each yr. Spay/neuter laws have proven to be effective. Until another approach is offered, I stand behing it 100%. 

As an aside...I know plenty of women who are sans uterus and totally happy and healthy.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Oh, I do have to admit that Walter is still packing...He came to us that way. He's not hard to keep track of as he moves at the speed of lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllightning. 

I would like to read documentation though in all seriousness on the evidence that not altering is better for the dog. And I'd also like to know what is being done in Europe that is so successful. And what is the ratio of pets owned to pets unhomed there vs here.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Kimm said:


> I know where mine are. So tell me, how do the Europeans do it? How do you do it SC? How does ACC do it? That's what I want to hear. I don't even let my guys off lead if they're not with me in the yard. Remember me??? LOL I was also give the title as alarmist, which is the truth.
> 
> Another question. Do you have children, SC?


Nope, no children here. 

I know where each and every one of my dogs are 100% of the time, no exceptions, EVER! The dogs don't get in trouble because they're never given the opportunity to do so.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

SC you said it exactly how I wish I could...

"IMHDAO It is immoral and unethical to cut into a normal healthy animal to remove normal healthy organs and tissue simply for the convenience of the owners. That's why the vast majority of spay/neuter procedures are done in this country, to enable the owners to be irresponsible and not have to face the repercussions involved for their irresponsible acts."

AMEN to that....


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

ACC, do you alter the dogs you rehome?


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> I would like to read documentation though in all seriousness on the evidence that not altering is better for the dog.
> 
> And I'd also like to know what is being done in Europe that is so successful. And what is the ratio of pets owned to pets unhomed there vs here.


The studies supporting the article posted at the beginning of this thread are referenced and listed at the end of the article. Most of the studies had been completed at some point during the last decade. (They are numerous.)


The differences in how European and U.S. views on pet ownership, are more cultural than legal. Across the big pond it would be viewed very unfavorably to allow ones dog to run loose, overturn rubbish bins, dig up neighbors gardens, bark endlessly, or take its pleasure with a neighbors females. An owner whose dog did such things whould be expected to "make things right" with the neighbors or face serious repercussions from the neighbors and/or law enforcement. 

In this country, such behaviors are dismissed by many dog owners as "dogs will be dogs". If by chance an animal control officer catches the dog, the dog is thrown in jail. If the dogs owner is located and wants the dog back, he has to pay a minor fee to bail out the dog, show the dog is current on rabies vaccine, collect his dog and go happily on his way. Any damages or inconveniences caused by the dog, are for the most part ignored entirely.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Swampcollie said:


> The differences in how European and U.S. views on pet ownership, are more cultural than legal.


We are a country of excess...sadly that goes for our unwanted animal population as well.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

That depends... Greyhounds I place have already been altered.

Goldens- most have been spayed previously, but the ones that have not- it truly depends on the home in question. Usually I will get females spayed as a reassurance as while I trust myself, I sadly cannot say the same for most others. All adoptions are a gamble, and I don't want to risk it. Males I do not alter, but I let the new owner make his or her own choice if the dog was not previously altered anyway.

I did NOT alter most of my Salukis, but they did go without papers and with a no breeding agreement. The older girls were spayed. Most Saluki homes are quite educated and serious. Most Saluki people frown upon altering.

I DO understand why shelters and rescue always alter. I simply wish society wasn't to the state that such actions were needed


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Usually I will get females spayed as a reassurance as while I trust myself, I sadly cannot say the same for most others. All adoptions are a gamble, and I don't want to risk it. Males I do not alter, but I let the new owner make his or her own choice if the dog was not previously altered anyway.
> 
> I


Why do you choose to spay and not neuter out of curiosity?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Mainly because of the health benefits to a spayed older female, and fear a non truly dog savvy home might not be attentive enough to catch pyo- and somewhat because a small part of me worries about some bozo trying to breed one of them. Finding a stud dog with a careless and ignorant owner is pretty easy... finding a bitch to breed w/your male is a lot harder. I have never had anyone try either so far, thank goodness. I screen pretty tight... most people go ahead and neuter anyway, but quite a few of my boys have remained intact with VERY responsible owners. I couldn't be happier.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

PS when I have placed puppies, the adopters have to agree to allow the dog to fully mature before altering- one heat cycle for a bitch and 12 to 18 months for a dog.


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## No Golden (May 21, 2007)

My dr. won't "spay" me. Already asked. I'm 20. No kids, ever. I think in about a year, I can be "spayed". Dr. wants me to be sure of this before I go ahead. I've been sure my entire life.

I do agree with the comment that our society sucks, that stupid people run rampant(they seem to come out in force in the summer). But, I will never ever second guess spaying & neutering, & the younger the better. The same way you will almost never spay/neuter.

It is IMO, that all vets who do not spay/neuter should be out of practice, the same way I feel about Dr. Stupid in town here. I also do not believe all those facts, as some of them, related to a bitch being spayed too young, my Coco has because the vet neglected to take all of her uterus, or even half of it!

You get vets who will not spay/neuter....then you get someone who adopts a shelter dog. They do not spay her. She has puppies. Bam....mom & babies in shelter.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Well, after reviewing the work and conclusions of noted respected Veterinary professionals whose works spanned more than twenty years, I would be inclined to accept their recommendations. The conclusions and recommendations are based upon what they believe is truely best for the long term health of animals.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

I didn;t realize I hadn't weighed in on this subject. I am not one to have unnecessary surgery on my dogs wither. I will say that when we did lab rescue that we spayed and nuetered. Not because of our thinking or the dogs actions but as protection for the dogs from people that you don;t really know that are rescuing from you. But as for my personal dogs nope I won't have it.

Hooch


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Swampcollie said:


> Well, after reviewing the work and conclusions of noted respected Veterinary professionals whose works spanned more than twenty years, I would be inclined to accept their recommendations. The conclusions and recommendations are based upon what they believe is truely best for the long term health of animals.


 
I have been to many vets, and all have recommended spaying and neutering. I wonder why the difference in philosophy. I have yet to encounter a vet who says you shouldn't spay or neuter.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

I just reviewed the citations in the article. All but one were articles on DISEASED dogs. No wonder they reached the conclusion they did! I saw no citations of any empirical evidence used to oppose their hypothesis.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> I just reviewed the citations in the article. All but one were articles on DISEASED dogs. No wonder they reached the conclusion they did! I saw no citations of any empirical evidence used to oppose their hypothesis.


Most medical studies (including those on Humans) are guided by political aims. Most of these procedures reach a conclusion first, then go out and do a study to prove it. All of the groups involved have political agendas that they are advancing. I think you read them, and reach your own conclusions. You have to do what you feel is best for *your* dogs.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

vrocco1 said:


> Most medical studies (including those on Humans) are guided by political aims. Most of these procedures reach a conclusion first, then go out and do a study to prove it. All of the groups involved have political agendas that they are advancing. I think you read them, and reach your own conclusions. You have to do what you feel is best for *your* dogs.


Very well said. 

I would think that breeders or people who own show dogs have a very different perspective than those of us in rescue. I am sure the "preachiness" of us rescuers must get annoying to people who are pretty far removed from it. I love that we all share these differing opinions. While I may not agree with something, I never walk away without taking a little bit of that new perspective with me! I will certainly be thinking about this whole topic with the thoughts shared by those who are opposed to spaying/neutering in mind. Rescue and breeding/showing don't occur in vaccuums...this kind of exchange of ideas is really good.

It's funny, as soon as you get off the "oh NO you DIDn't just say that!" box and back on the ground, new info is much easier to absorb!


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

vrocco1 said:


> Most medical studies (including those on Humans) are guided by political aims. Most of these procedures reach a conclusion first, then go out and do a study to prove it. All of the groups involved have political agendas that they are advancing. I think you read them, and reach your own conclusions. You have to do what you feel is best for *your* dogs.


EXCELLENT point!!! A lot of the spay/neuter propaganda is funded by the likes of PETA and HSUS. They are NOT "pro-pet" organizations, people! :yuck:


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> This and some of the other comments in this thread strike a pet peeve of mine.
> 
> Climbing up on soapbox
> 
> ...


*:You_Rock_ ***THANK YOU FOR THIS HELPFUL POST!!!*** :You_Rock_


*​


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Spay/neuter "propaganda" has been effective in controlling the unwanted pet population thus preventing the unneccessary killing of innocent animals. Let's think for a moment about the feral cat population. How do we control that if not through spaying and neutering? Hunting? 

It's very easy to say "change the culture". But right now there is an overwhelming SURPLUS of homeless and suffering animals. Until we get control of that, embracing other means of keeping that population in check isn't realistic. I think it is dangerous to blatantly spout "don't spay and neuter" publicly without some sort of consideration as to who may be listening. It will not just be responsible owners who probably COULD keep their animals intact without any unwanted litters. A dangerous message when delievered into the ears of the wrong people indeed.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> Very well said.
> 
> I would think that breeders or people who own show dogs have a very different perspective than those of us in rescue. I am sure the "preachiness" of us rescuers must get annoying to people who are pretty far removed from it.


There are also breeders among us that do everything possible to ensure that one of our puppies don't end up in a rescue. All Delmarva puppy buyers understand that I get (and want) the dog if they can no longer care for it. I've never gotten a dog back yet, and that is because I make sure they go the the right home every time. It takes a lot of work, but it is possible.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

vrocco1 said:


> There are also breeders among us that do everything possible to ensure that one of our puppies don't end up in a rescue. All Delmarva puppy buyers understand that I get (and want) the dog if they can no longer care for it. I've never gotten a dog back yet, and that is because I make sure they go the the right home every time. It takes a lot of work, but it is possible.


I don't doubt that for a minute. I wish all breeders were like you.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

vrocco1 said:


> There are also breeders among us that do everything possible to ensure that one of our puppies don't end up in a rescue. All Delmarva puppy buyers understand that I get (and want) the dog if they can no longer care for it. I've never gotten a dog back yet, and that is because I make sure they go the the right home every time. It takes a lot of work, but it is possible.


Vern, to bad there arent more breeders out there like you and Sue.....


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Maggies mom said:


> Vern, to bad there arent more breeders out there like you and Sue.....


There really are a lot of people that act as responsible breeders. All of the folks that are members of the various clubs we belong to employ the same practices. There is a lot of peer presure in these clubs to maintain high standards. That is why I always recomend that people contact their local breed club when they are looking for a puppy.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Rose and Kathy do the same Vern. We got Tucker only because the buyer followed the contract and returned him to the breeder. Had the woman took him to a shelter or a rescue, they may have never known.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

So, should one spay and neuter their cats????


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Kimm said:


> So, should one spay and neuter their cats????


Troublemaker... (just kidding)


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Kimm said:


> Rose and Kathy do the same Vern. We got Tucker only because the buyer followed the contract and returned him to the breeder. Had the woman took him to a shelter or a rescue, they may have never known.


We do stay in touch with most of the puppy buyers. They send photos, etc. Sometimes out of the blue, one shows up on the front porch to show us their doggie. In fact, I just got a call yesterday from a guy in Tennessee that has a Kelsee/Jesse puppy. The guy is so in love with his pup, that he just had to call and tell us.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

vrocco1 said:


> Troublemaker... (just kidding)


Sorry...LOL. I do set fires and run sometimes. 

I was just wondering if people feel the same way about cats as they do dog. IMHO, they should. There are ways to solve this issue without neutering. In our case, we could have gotten two cats of the same sex (we thought we did) and not let them go outdoors.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Kimm said:


> Sorry...LOL. I do set fires and run sometimes.
> 
> I was just wondering if people feel the same way about cats as they do dog. IMHO, they should. There are ways to solve this issue without neutering. In our case, we could have gotten two cats of the same sex (we thought we did) and not let them go outdoors.


 
Their are colonies of feral cats in many areas that are growing exponentially. There are some programs designed to help capture, spay/neuter and release or rehome them. Altering cats to prevent unwanted litters is just as important as dogs.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Mia- you're so right about PETA, etc

Lisa- I have the maybe slightly unusual quality that I have been VERY serious into rescue and showing. I DO understand why rescues alter their dogs.

Kimm- cats are a tough one. I don't know the answer. Mine are not spayed, but are indoor only and are very young (10 months). I am right now contemplating what to do about it. I will most likely alter them.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Mia- you're so right about PETA, etc
> 
> Lisa- I have the maybe slightly unusual quality that I have been VERY serious into rescue and showing. I DO understand why rescues alter their dogs.
> 
> Kimm- cats are a tough one. I don't know the answer. Mine are not spayed, but are indoor only and are very young (10 months). I am right now contemplating what to do about it. I will most likely alter them.


 
I think it caught me off-guard as you are the first person who says they both rescue and believe that altering a dog is a form of mutilation. I suppose the two aren't mutually exclusive, but I personally would find it hard to believe in both. But that's just me.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Well, to me the solution to rescue dogs is education, not a mass surgical altering of every animal. Altering dogs left and right prevents them from breeding, but would it be better to educate people (and no I don't know how- I wish I did!) so that most of them wouldn't even get a pet in the first place or would take proper care of it (never mind let it breed).


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Well, to me the solution to rescue dogs is education, not a mass surgical altering of every animal. Altering dogs left and right prevents them from breeding, but would it be better to educate people (and no I don't know how- I wish I did!) so that most of them wouldn't even get a pet in the first place or would take proper care of it (never mind let it breed).


Well unless and until someone finds the cure for stupid, spaying and neutering will continue to be necessary for the public at large.


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## No Golden (May 21, 2007)

Kimm said:


> So, should one spay and neuter their cats????


YYEEESSS!!!!!

TNR(Trap Neuter Release) ferals, catch neighborhood strays fix 'em & place them, spay/neuter your own pet cats, whether they be inside or outside.

I've go 15 cats. 7 inside, 8 outside. All are fixed except 2, who are my fosters & no vet will fix yet because they aren't 6 months old. ....sigh....

ETA: Also, cats can go into heat & stay in heat until they get pregnant. I've seen it at the shelter quite a few times. unfortunately.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

No Golden said:


> YYEEESSS!!!!!
> 
> TNR(Trap Neuter Release) ferals, catch neighborhood strays fix 'em & place them, spay/neuter your own pet cats, whether they be inside or outside.
> 
> ...


My cats are both spayed and neutered. They're 10 years old now. I have a friend, and I too, have found homes for cats in need. Our students, faculty, and staff have given homes to a number of cats in need. 

I was just wondering if people who feel a specific way about spaying and neutering dogs, feel the same way about cats? Not to worry. My cats had to be altered quickly. They were from the same litter and I think the DOB was off. When I found my female kitten had climbed the fireplace bricks to escape the heavier male who can't climb as well, I told the vet we had to do something ASAP and their DOB must have been incorrect.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I do not think it's great that cats with stable indoor homes are spayed and neutered, but I am more inclined to spay a cat than a dog for sure. There are ways to bring a cat out of season without breeding them. Ask a cat breeder 

I TOTALLY support altering ferals- there is no other solution, short of euthanizing all of them.


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