# Judges



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

It is very hard to generalize about which judges pick what and why, and there are so many factors in the mix. A good amount of the time a sincere judge looks for his or her ideal of the dog closest to the breed standard as that person sees it, and then the people in charge of hiring the judging panel will try to identify those preferences in various ways and for various reasons. 

All dogs have faults, including the ones that win, so the trick is to figure out what strength the judge was pinpointing in the dog chosen. 

Slowly over time, you come to know what judges are likeminded with you about dogs, and what judges think differently. 

You might enter to a "bad" panel to be a good sport and support a club or your breeder, or you might try to be really economical with your energy and money, and just enter under judges who appreciate the style of golden you offer. 

Often a top special is that bc he/she appeals to a wide variety of judges and offends few. Sometimes the "best" dog in one person's mind will cause a love/hate relations with some judges drooling and others dumping.

It is very intricate and takes years to get a feel for what dog to bring to what judge. I have a list of Show To judges for each of my dogs and a list of DNS. 

There are times I will show to a DNS judge knowing the dog will lose bc it is a sportsmanship thing or other reasons. I wouldn't follow judges for regular points, even in group, but I keep my eye on big events.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think sometimes you never know until you get your hands on the dog. A lot of dogs may appear to have level backs, but sometimes that's grooming. A lot of dogs may appear to have a "slanted" back, but they have more muscle and ruff at the shoulders which may cause the illusion of having steep shoulders or something else going on.

I've heard of some judges where they don't have a problem with upright fronts, steep shoulders, etc... but they will never pick a dog with dropped incisors. Same thing with judges will pick a dog who has a mile wide space between front and rear legs when moving... but they will never pick a dog whose tail is carried too high. <= You hear stuff shared around the set ups.

Personal grip for me - fwiw, isn't the fact that judges select odd looking dogs. It's the fact that the judges may select these dogs after the owners or handlers spend the weekend chumming around with the judges. I understand that some owner handlers have been around for ages and everyone knows everyone, but other people see all this and there's a lot of griping going on about the impropriety. 

I don't have an updated judge list - but I do, going off memory keep tabs on judges that I will gladly show to again anywhere... and judges who I won't take the time to show to depending on location. Some judges based on venue make different choices than they would elsewhere. 

** There's a big show here in MI in a few weeks which I worried about going to and I decided at the end to skip because I don't want to be stuck at a benched show all day, I don't think the way some judges judge these events makes it worth the stress, and I'm going on vacation instead.  

Other things I know a little is that teaching the dogs to stack with their rears too far back will cause an incline. So that in of itself might be handling issues that you are seeing. A judge may be taking that into context when looking at the whole dog.


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

My breeder definitely has a list of who she will and will not show to. She also picks and chooses which dogs to show on what days depending on the judge. So on the Saturday she might have entered all her dogs to one judge, but the next days judge, maybe only one. A lot has to do with if they are a breeder judge or not, too.

I know I have been on the committees to choose our judges for our specialties and it is very hard. We try to pick one local ( to save on plane fare ) and one that we fly in. I found out that everybody has a different opinion on the judges ( but I have found there are a handful that everybody likes ). Last year's judge, we had people coming from all over the place, because he was known to be very diversified in his choices, so people felt all their dogs had a chance with him.

I have also heard people say to always show under a judge twice before writing them off. You never know what type of day they are having or how your dog stacks up to the other dogs on in the ring.

I once heard an interview from a judge, and he once admitted to putting up a dog that was not the best, but because the reminded him of the dog he had growing up. Unfortunately, judging is subjective and we did go to a show recently and the dog that won breed was an ugly golden retriever. Something about the face, but it must have had something that the judge liked ( or it was the person at the other side of the leash.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Welcome to dog shows. It is very hard to critique the finer points on each dog if you are not the judge. You don't have your hands on them, and you don't have the opportunity to compare them to all the others in the ring that day. Every dog has faults, sometimes a judge is forced to pick the dog with the fewest faults (bad judging technique but especially in small shows there might not be a high quality dog that makes judging easy).
I have found the most useful way to track a judge's trends, is to look at their result history in your region. If you show long enough you will start to know which dogs look like and win under the same judges as your dog, and which don't. If you can look back in a judge's history and see a trend of picking similar or dis-similar dogs, then that will be helpful.
I will travel VERY far to show under a judge I think I have a great chance to win under. I won't travel half an hour to a judge I know I won't win under. It's just money, and time. Forget it. I will give a judge a chance if my opinion of them is neutral and showing to them is convenient. If I think I like a judge I will give them a second chance, after that, won't try again with that same dog.
Funny story about that. There's a particular breeder judge, that I thought would LOVE Bally. First off, she gave Bally's mother points. Second off, about 5 years ago I was doing the meet the breed booth at Eukanuba, for our local club. I had Fisher up on a grooming table so people could walk by and pet him. Up walk a man and woman. The woman tells me, I am a judge for Goldens and he is applying for goldens. Do you mind if we go over your dog on the table, I'm not going to judge him I just want to show him the important things to look for. OK Fine. She starts at Fisher's head and gets about to his ribs, stops and looks at me and says "This is a REALLY nice dog. I wasn't expecting to find a dog this nice to show him." and proceeded to have me move him, and was really extremely complimentary about Fisher. So now that I have Bally, I've shown him twice to her. One time I drove A LONG WAY to do so, and more recently, she judged the breed at a local show. BOTH TIMES she COMPLETELY IGNORED Bally, didn't even make the cut or get a second look!!!!! Other than I think she likes a bigger male, I cannot figure out what she doesn't like about him. She loved both his parents, and he's BETTER than each of them conformationally. So who knows. I think she's a good judge. I would show to her again, just not with Honey Bunny ))))


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> If you show long enough you will start to know which dogs look like and win under the same judges as your dog, and which don't. If you can look back in a judge's history and see a trend of picking similar or dis-similar dogs, then that will be helpful.
> I will travel VERY far to show under a judge I think I have a great chance to win under. I won't travel half an hour to a judge I know I won't win under. It's just money, and time. Forget it. I will give a judge a chance if my opinion of them is neutral and showing to them is convenient. If I think I like a judge I will give them a second chance, after that, won't try again with that same dog.


^^ I read this shortly after getting a "oh darn" feeling on seeing a judge's name listed for goldens for a show I intend to enter, but don't know what to expect from the judge. What I've heard from people is she's political about lines and other breeders. And I'm being careful here, but it wasn't a good sign for me knowing that the most recent show she did in our area or close to it that I can look results up - she gave the win to a dog from her own lines. And I know her own dogs have a very certain look which mine does not have. So it's a mystery as far as whether it's worth entering this show under her. 

Now that said - I remember you posting a picture of one of Bally's majors with her judging... and Bally def does not look like one of her dogs... that was not local though...


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Megora said:


> I think sometimes you never know until you get your hands on the dog. A lot of dogs may appear to have level backs, but sometimes that's grooming. A lot of dogs may appear to have a "slanted" back, but they have more muscle and ruff at the shoulders which may cause the illusion of having steep shoulders or something else going on.
> 
> I've heard of some judges where they don't have a problem with upright fronts, steep shoulders, etc... but they will never pick a dog with dropped incisors. Same thing with judges will pick a dog who has a mile wide space between front and rear legs when moving... but they will never pick a dog whose tail is carried too high. <= You hear stuff shared around the set ups.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of this. I have a few judges I don't respect at all, and won't show to. I have other judges whose style of golden differs from the style in which I believe. I still respect them bc they are consistent, but we have not that much common ground. Then there are judges who really love my style of dog and agree with the breed standard as I understand it. These judges are kindred spirits win or lose, and it is tempting to follow them, but I don't bc I don't think it is sporting. The one kind of judge I don't like is the kind who judges differently region to region and social situation to social situation . They usually have an exaggerated sense if social hierarchy amongst the people, and try to have a posee of other judges fall in line with their influence. Certain owners or certain handlers will try to have inside influence, and there is a whole lots of baloney going on. That is for the birds, but thankfully it doesn't happen very often. The other kind of judge who is no fun is the "pointer". They seem lost with the entry, and point to a collection of winners who seem to have no coherence, and when you look at their record, you scratch your head bc it seems to have no overarching viewpoint. I really believe that day in and day out, most judges are fair and look for the best dog in their opinion on that day.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> ^^ I read this shortly after getting a "oh darn" feeling on seeing a judge's name listed for goldens for a show I intend to enter, but don't know what to expect from the judge. What I've heard from people is she's political about lines and other breeders. And I'm being careful here, but it wasn't a good sign for me knowing that the most recent show she did in our area or close to it that I can look results up - she gave the win to a dog from her own lines. And I know her own dogs have a very certain look which mine does not have. So it's a mystery as far as whether it's worth entering this show under her.
> 
> Now that said - I remember you posting a picture of one of Bally's majors with her judging... and Bally def does not look like one of her dogs... that was not local though...


Haha yep....
I will say I showed to her when Bally was just out of 12-18 I was in Am-Bred. Only entry.
She picked VERY MODERATE dogs for her winners of each class.
In WD she brought out her Open dog, Bred By, and myself. She said to the three of us, thank you for bringing me moderate, balanced, athletic, well conditioned dogs, and showing them in a moderate fashion on a loose lead as they should be. She gave winners to the Bred By dog, very deserving. None of these dogs looked like her dogs, none of them had her dogs in their immediate pedigree. It was VERY CLEAR what she was looking for. 6 months later she gave Bally WD/BOW major at our local specialty...again, she only pulled out moderate, balanced, athletic dogs who could move and were shown to that advantage. She knows a good dog, and she knows what she's looking for. She puts on an EXCELLENT seminar if you're able to attend one.
I know you live in her region, and she's been there forever, and with that you get a lot of relationships both good and bad. I get it. Since I don't have to deal with that, it's just me and my dog in the ring, no agenda and no back story with any judge, I have to take any evaluation at face value. 
At the end of the day, it's a dog show, you'll win some and you'll lose some.
Honestly I feel that I get a decent look from a knowledgeable judge, about 25% of the time. The rest of the time, they either don't know what to look for in a golden, or they have a political agenda.


----------



## bethlehemgolden (Aug 2, 2014)

Megora said:


> - fwiw, isn't the fact that judges select odd looking dogs. It's the fact that the judges may select these dogs after the owners or handlers spend the weekend chumming around with the judges. I understand that some owner handlers have been around for ages and everyone knows everyone, but other people see all this and there's a lot of griping going on about the impropriety.


OMG!!! THIS HAPPENED AT THE LAST SHOW. The same prof. handler won w/ 2 different bitches. So annoying. She won on Saturday, then Sunday , was buddy buddy with the Saturday judge, and then went to lunch with the Sunday judge. It was horrific. 

What's frustrating is I am told my dog would win with a handler because he is a good dog. But I retort, if he is a good dog, then I should be able to win with him. It shouldn't matter who is holding the lead, what should matter is what is on the end of the lead. 

Besides after what happened when I did pay a handler, I don't think I can trust any of them.


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

bethlehemgolden said:


> OMG!!! THIS HAPPENED AT THE LAST SHOW. The same prof. handler won w/ 2 different bitches. So annoying. She won on Saturday, then Sunday , was buddy buddy with the Saturday judge, and then went to lunch with the Sunday judge. It was horrific.
> 
> What's frustrating is I am told my dog would win with a handler because he is a good dog. But I retort, if he is a good dog, then I should be able to win with him. It shouldn't matter who is holding the lead, what should matter is what is on the end of the lead.
> 
> Besides after what happened when I did pay a handler, I don't think I can trust any of them.


This is the sad part of all the showing. No matter who the judge is, they are going to personally know at least some of the people in the ring, be them professional handlers or breeders - many of these people go years back with each other, know each other's families, spent weekends together showing, etc.


----------



## bethlehemgolden (Aug 2, 2014)

I guess I am just surprised how we get AKC Judges.

Like I would think the way we get them is people study , "book study the breeds". Take tests and if they pass they can get certified to be a judge.

But in reality, they have people who have been around dog shows for years vying to be a judge. So you are allowing "insiders" to determine who wins or not.
I beleive you can either try to be a judge by either being a professional handler OR by being a breeder.


How to Become an AKC Judge
Purebred breeder-handlers often aspire to become conformation judges. To apply for an American Kennel Club judging license, you must have:

Exhibited in conformation for 12 or more years in at least one breed

Bred and raised five or more litters of one breed on your premises

Bred four or more champions in one breed
AKC looks for potential judges who have not only produced and exhibited outstanding examples of their breed but also thoroughly understand the judging process. Therefore, you also need to complete the following before requesting a judge’s application:

Six stewarding assignments at AKC shows within three years of application.

Six judging assignments at AKC-sanctioned matches, specialty matches, sweepstakes or futurities. To judge at these events, you must be asked by a show-giving club. 

Attendance at an AKC Basic Judges’ Institute within two years of application. These are one-day seminars given by AKC staff held at various times during the year throughout the United States. The seminars address ring procedure, evaluating dogs and the AKC judge’s approval process. 

An open-book exam for canine anatomy and AKC judging procedures.

A pre-application interview with AKC staff
After meeting these requirements, you need to fill out the AKC judge’s application form. If you’re thinking of applying for a judging license at some point, keep careful records of your dog activities so you can accurately record them on the detailed form.

Once your application is submitted, you must successfully pass another open-book exam on the standard for the breed(s) applied for and another interview with AKC staff. If the AKC staff and board of directors act favorably on your application, you will become a provisional judge and be able to take judging assignments. After successfully completing five provisional assignments where your actual judging is graded by an AKC field representative, you can apply for regular judging status. Congratulations! You are now part of a select group of dog lovers who help shape the future quality of a given breed.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Some of the judges qualified to judge every breed in the AKC awe me. They have devoted their lifetime to purebred dogs. An example is Pat Trotter who bred/breeds the Norwegian Elkhound, but went through the process after process to judge all the breeds. We have to be careful to appreciate the effort and passion it takes to judge for some people. A breeder judge of lauded goldens just resigned bc he missed specialing his own dogs, he was away from home much of the time for low pay, and no matter how he picked the dog he truly felt met the standard, people would speculate on his motives- he was kind of like ummm why would I do this with my hobby I love? So while we do have to ensure judges have appropriate credentials, we also have to appreciate their effort to keep the sport going.


----------



## bethlehemgolden (Aug 2, 2014)

Ljilly28 said:


> So while we do have to ensure judges have appropriate credentials, we also have to appreciate their effort to keep the sport going.


Thank you! A few sour judges should not be what I measure ALL judges apart of the AKC, you are 100% right. Thank you.


----------



## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

This just makes me smile and shake my head! I was thinking I want to try conformation someday when I'm done having 2 legged kids. I show horses at small local shows and it is so political it makes you sick. I've literally seen a horse completely botch something up and still place 1st or 2nd because of who his trainer is or how expensive his saddle is, or whatever. There's also a new class that I'm really loving (called ranch pleasure), but half the judges don't appear to even know how to judge it and the horses with the wrong type of movement win, while the ones with the correct movement don't get looked at! I guess I should've known it wouldn't be any different in dogs, but I was hoping so! Oh well, I'd still like to try someday. If I can take the politics in horses, I guess I can take it in dogs!


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@G&F - I showed my horse for about 10 years (English pleasure primarily). And I have no clue what the judges were basing their decisions on. I was riding out there and honestly with the exception of the people who were "bouncing" on their horses too much - I had no clue why one team would beat another sometimes.  I think dog shows are a bit clearer sometimes as far as why some dogs are winning or losing. Sometimes.


----------

