# Cancer treatments for old golden, to treat or leave



## Penny and Barneys Mum (Jan 17, 2012)

Hello, some of you may have seen my post in the cancer section about Penny's diagnosis of oral upper epitheliotropic lymphoma.

Pen is a rescue goldie and we were told she was one and a half when we homed her. That would make her nearly 13 now, however, it has always been said by everyone including our vets that she was a bit older than our male golden, so that would make her 14 possibly slightly older. 

She was really showing her age recently, refusing some walks but still enjoying life in other ways, chasing down the garden barking at our neighbors dog etc. 

To cut this shorter, she has been diagnosed with the above after having a fast growing mass removed from her mouth.

We have had her blood tested today to see if she could manage any treatments, we are waiting for the results.

Options given now should the results be OK. 

Chemo and Pednisone, or just Pednisone, or do nothing and watch the lump and de-bulk further if necessary.

After her biopsy and de-bulk she was given Loxicom for operation pain, this has transformed her, she is like her old self. Dashing around, out for two of her daily walks, sometimes three, barking at us for treats etc. In short she is really happy. 

I know I cannot expect anyone to make the choice to treat or not treat for us, but it would be very helpful to talk to other people with such experiences to help us make the best choice for Pen. 

Above ALL she must not suffer, we want to do what is best for her. 

Our vet won't help us make the choice, she says Chemo could give her another 1-2 years and she might not even know she is having the treatment. Then she said, if she is sick it can all be managed, making it sound very much like a wonder treatment that could be a breeze to go through! Reading around this form, it seems that isn't often the case. Then the next sentence we are told it is our choice, we asked would she give the treatment to her own dog, we were told umm, I think so, Yes I would try it I think. Then later she said the option could be to leave it, she swayed from various options back and forth when asked. We are more puzzled now than before. Then she said we could take her to a cancer specialist but it would be very costly and it is a three hour drive away, so 3 there and 3 back, pen isn't wonderful in the car now she's older. 

Please help if you can offer any advice, we really were hoping that the vet could guide us not make things a whole lot worse. I know she is only telling us how it is, but surely they must have an age limit for putting dogs through this kind of thing? 

Thanks for any help you can offer.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am so sorry about Penny's dx. She seems to have rebounded with her initial treatment, and that must be nice to have some happy days with her. 

I really believe in diligent pain control and then a high protein "cancer starving" diet with added esther "C". 

For me personally, I have chosen not to go the chemo route in my old gold with cancer bc I feel they do not understand sickness as part of a cure, and they have so few days left at that age regardless. That is just me though, and I respect all other choices. 

For my dogs, I hope to stand watch over as many good days as they can have, and then let them go before even one day of true suffering. That is the goal- I havent always reached it. 

I was able to let go of my goldens Joplin and Raleigh when it was clear they had terminal cancer- both hemangiosarcoma- one spleen and one cardiac. I gave pain medicine and enjoyed the days with them, and put them to sleep right before a bleeding crisis in each case. I felt good that I was able to let them go before they had an experience of terror or terrible pain.

I screwed up with my golden Acadia. She was only just 9, and she has had a healthy senior exam just a few weeks before. The cancer in her spleen and bladder caught me so off guard I allowed the E vet to put in a cathather( without knowing it could never come out again). She was miserable, bc she was such a clean dog. She hated that pee kept coming out and she couldnt stop it. It was a weekend, so they made her go four days before getting hands on an unltrasound machine. At that point, there was no way to do anything but let her go- she was all full of cancer. 

In contrasting, the extended e vet care makes me squeamish with guilt whenever i remember Cady. The other two were just right, even though it was difficult to say goodbye. Trying to treat Acadia and hold on to her simply made her last week terrible.


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## Penny and Barneys Mum (Jan 17, 2012)

Thanks so much for offering your advice, we totally agree with good days left. 

The way we both see it is this.

She's happy and very old, she has done really, really well to get to this age. Many goldens are nowhere near as fortunate. She is showing age related illness already, she's had her fair share of illness and operations. She looked really worried when they were trying to get blood from her this morning, panic in her eyes, but I kept talking to her and she trusted I was helping and was OK and never broke my gaze. 

Our main concern is she doesn't understand illness, she doesn't know why she would be going through nausea, tummy pain, extra fatigue and the many other things. We feel really strongly about that. But told today that if the growth grows back fast, it could obstruct her mouth and that would probably end up being the reason she was put to sleep and not the actual cancer, that really hurt. We feel like we are playing god. 

She must not suffer, quality and not quantity, we kept telling our vet this. We thought we had the answer, no chemo treatments in this case given Pens age and track record of problems with treatment side effects. Yet we now feel like we would be being mean if we didn't try it! Possibly try Pednisone, but the vet was saying there are often more side effects with that.


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## Penny and Barneys Mum (Jan 17, 2012)

You really have been through it and I'm sorry for your previous losses and pain, goldens are such wonderful creatures it really is hard to know what is the best thing to do, reading your post though, I would have done exactly the same things as you. I'll write a bit more in a minute.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I am so sorry you have received this dx with your Penny.

This is such a personal decision for all involved. I have always let my dogs & cats go gently upon receiving a terminal diagnosis or to prevent surgery like the removal of a jaw. A large part of this is spiritual for me but another side is practical since I work away from my home and cannot always be there to manage pain and discomfort, or to feed small amounts throughout the day. 

Whatever route you choose is the correct one for you. Please try not to second guess yourself once you choose.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

You are definitley on the right track in your pondering. It stinks when there is no one right answer.


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## Penny and Barneys Mum (Jan 17, 2012)

Many thanks, sorry about the delay in replying. I've got one heck of a headache and what the vet has said keeps whirling round my head, so many different things and contradictions. We honestly felt bad for telling the vet that our main concern was a happy pain free remaining life, especially when she said we didn't know she may have another 1-2 years with the chemo, made us feel like we put an early death sentence on our dogs head. I pointed out the possible problems with chemo and we were told they could be managed and if we didn't try we wouldn't know. Also that the mass growth stopping her eating might be the problem in the future, causing her to be PTS rather than the actual cancer, chemo could stop that mass growing apparently. That has caused this doubting, up until that point we had said we were going to manage pain for the best possible quality of life be it shorter, rather than make her suffer treatments. 

My Husband and I, want to let her enjoy her time, as happy and as pain free as possible however short it might be. 

At her minimum age of nearly 13 she's been through enough. She had her spleen removed nearly two years ago this coming January, there were masses in that but when tested they were benign. Eye lid operations, a gone wrong spay, biopsy, de-bulk, nasty vestibular attack, joint problems and other things. She isn't good with medications, she suffers side effects and gets really down wearing collars and the likes. Then the thought of more sickness, poohing etc etc, just makes me feel really, really bad for her and selfish to even think she would want to go through that for a possible 12-24 months. 

I'm actually hoping that the blood results come back showing chemo isn't an option. 

Pednisone according to the vets will give side effects if not worse than the chemo, that is a worry too. The vet says she has another client who is having chemo and doesn't even know they are having it, comes in tail wagging etc etc. But I always thought dogs were very good at hiding pain and trying to be strong. 

Thanks for helping us, it really does make a difference, I'm just so sorry we all have to go through this with our heart dogs, makes me so sad. I don't know if we will be able to care for any more goldens after all this, it is heart breaking.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

We always said that if treatment could change the outcome, the we would pull out all the stops. If it couldn't or would buy only a month or two, we would let her go. Unwittingly, we did the second.

Some dogs seem to tolerate the chemo pretty well. I think I would try it and see how it goes. You can always stop and just enjoy what time she has left.

It is so hard. Even tho we didn't know Penny was dying, I still feel a lot of guilt at letting her go. It is so hard. Sending you prayers and hugs.


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## GoldenMum (Mar 15, 2010)

I don't know much about her type of cancer, but My Bonnie had Osteosarcoma in her mouth, it is a very aggressive cancer. I chose to debulk, and giver her pain meds only. She had a wonderful two months full of hikes and swims. I refused chemo as she would have had to have half her lower jaw removed. The vet also said the chemo would lower her immune system, and I should keep her out of ponds; not with Bonnie! She was on antibiotics for infection in her mouth, and tramadol for pain.

Clyde is full of cancer, kidney, liver, lymph nodes. I did not have it biopsied and typed, as I didn't see the point, it wouldn't change his outcome. He is late stage, he is only getting tramadol along with all his other meds he was already on. He may need stronger pain meds as things progress, we will see.

It is a very personal decision, but as long as you're keeping your pets best interest at heart, that's all that matters.


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## jealous1 (Dec 7, 2007)

As everyone else has counseled, this is such a personal decision and the right decision is whatever you finally decide as long as you make it with love for your dog. My husband and I have taken in several golden seniors over the past few years and made the decision that in each case we would offer quality of life over quantity. I feel we have met that decision in each case when the decision had to be made--didn't make it any easier but knowing that we did "right" by them brings its own sense of comfort. Right now we are dealing with a 15+ senior who has her ups and downs but the ups still definitely outweigh the downs. A little different situation than in your case as Ms. Susie came to us a little over two years ago at ~13 years of age but we love her as if she had been with us her whole life.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

I'm so very sorry for Penny's diagnosis. 

This is a very difficult to decision to make-my heart goes out to you.

A few years ago, it was determined that my Old Gold had cancer. He was 14-14.5 at the time of his diagnosis, the exact type was not determined. 

My Vet felt he would not tolerate any type of treatment very well and it would not prolong his life that much. We opted not to do any treatment going with Quality of life over quantity of life basically. 

The last year he was basically in hospice, was given Tramadol daily for pain. He did very well during this time up until the first part of Feb.2011. He started going down hill very quickly, it was a roller coaster ride of several good days mixed in with a few bad days. On 2/18/11 we said goodbye to him at the age of 15.5.

It's a very difficult decision to make, my thoughts and prayers are with you and Penny.


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## Penny and Barneys Mum (Jan 17, 2012)

Many thanks everyone, so many heart felt experiences, my heart goes out to you all. 

Pens happiness and quality of life is the most important thing here, she was a rescue dog with a horrible start in life, we don't want to end her life with upset and what to me, could seem like torture in some ways. We would like to fill her with more love, treats, cuddles and more treats, that's what matters to her, she's a real food hound. 

Prior to the cancer she was struggling with her legs and basically getting old fast. The full regime of partial jaw removal, pednisone, chemo is a no, no, for us. She only just had a blood test this morning and that was more than enough for her, the vet couldn't get any blood the first time round so had to shave the other side of her neck and try again, pen really wasn't happy given the look in her eyes and how she wouldn't break my gaze. She looked so scared. 

She did dash out of the vets barking and running down the road we me being pulled along behind her, tried to get in the pie shop and basically barked at two more dogs on her way back to the car............she was full of it! That makes it even more hard. 

It sticks in my mind, you could have two more years with her and shrink the tumor. But the experiences of other dogs struggling on medications and being really ill sticks in my mind too. Part of me says maybe just give it a go, then the other says, don't you think she's been through enough. 

I wish it was more clear cut, nothing in life ever is though I guess. We really do feel like dog murders knowing that all we want is for her to be happy and we could be ending two years of her life. But then if we do go ahead with the treatment we could be making her suffer more for the gain of a different quality of life. Don't you just wish we all had crystal balls.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm sorry you are going through this.
I had a 17yr old cat with acute lymphocytic leukemia. The oncologist referred to it as her favorite cancer since it responds well to treatment. She did go into remission, but had something else going on so I lost her a week after she was declared cancer free.
My golden was diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma that had already metastasized. I spoke to the oncologist and she explained that the life expectancy was only months. I chose to treat her with chemo but more on the palliative side of things. She didn't get sick with the chemo. I did lose her 2 months after diagnosis.
My lab had to have an emergency splenectomy a few months after I lost my golden. Luckily his came back benign, but I was pretty sure I wouldn't treat him if it was hemangiosarcoma again. Nothing can help with that cancer as I found with my golden.
I would suggest talking to an oncologist and find out what they can offer as far as outcomes.
I definitely would treat palliatively at the very least to keep her comfortable for as long as possible


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## Penny and Barneys Mum (Jan 17, 2012)

Thanks, it is a tough call. If we don't decide to go down the chemo and pednisone route, or just the pednisone route, we will 100 percent make sure she is pain and infection free. We will not let her suffer, that wouldn't be fair at all. The only reason we are doubting the chemo and steroids is the extra health troubles and upsets it could cause her, given her age and existing condition. We are researching if that outweighs the good in extended life, we couldn't bare to add extra time to her life and give her a lesser quality of life in return for that by all the cancer drugs causing side effects. Our worry is all those drugs, side effects, runs back and forth to the vets will make her life not worth living in her eyes. 

Today's choices have come via our vet getting the advice from a leading oncologist given Pens results. Although we don't know if the cancer has spread anywhere else, I've asked but I'm told they don't know at this point as yet.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

What I am hearing is that the treatment alone, the work that the vet would have to do to her to get the treatment in, would be traumatic for her. Even the blood test was hard for her. And for you. 

It sounds to me like palliative care home would be best. And when the time comes, it would be best if the vet came to your home. I feel so bad for Your Penny...I know I never wanted Our Penny to be afraid or worried. 

Prayers for you in making these decisions. I'm sure Your Penny will guide you in the right way. She has been happy. She has been loved. For our dogs, that's all they ask.


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## PrincessDaisy (Dec 20, 2011)

We got a diagnosis in April 2009 of advanced Mast Cell. Our Ivory was given 4 to 6 months even with chemo (vinoblastin[sp]). Only surgery option was removal of a fore paw. Quality of life would not allow me to do that to my dog. I changed her diet from Purina 1 to near raw (blanched) chicken with coconut oil and unsweetened coconut flakes, astrogalas, tumeric (curcumin), vitamines A, D, E, Benedryl and Pepsid... With chemo she lasted 25 months, going to The Bridge on April 16, 2011. Also, on the vino, Ivory did not get sick the way humans do on chemo. The pred made her pee a lot more often, but that was the only apparent side effect. There is a newer chemo drug approved in 2011 that is designed just for canines. I do not know the name but by the time it was available, it was too late to help Ivory significantly.

Each of the items in Ivory's diet either contributed to her immune system, or were included to actually fight cancer cells. Benedryl and pepsid were suggested by the oncologist. The blanched but basicly raw chicken is for essential protean and amino acids. The coconut and coconut oil will directly harm cancer cells, as will the tumeric (curcumin) and astrogalas. A, D, E fight free radicals and inhibit cancer growth. Between your grocer and health food store, it is all easily available. Our oncologist was surprised at the shrinkage of the tumor, and the fact that it did not spread for 24 months, but when it did spread, we only had 7 - 10 days before Ivory was too miserable for her to stay with us. We sent her to the Bridge because no one should suffer like she did the last 36 hours. But up until that last 36 hours she was happy and loving as she had always been.

She was a rescue from Tennessee Vally G.R.R., and was probably closer to being a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever than she was a Golden Retriever, but she was a great dog. 


Max


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## Penny and Barneys Mum (Jan 17, 2012)

Yes Penny has had her fair share of vet visits. Barney our other golden has too, more than her. He actually likes going to the vets, pen doesn't seem to mind too much because she gets fed treats, but she isn't good being left. She has always looked over her shoulder for me, ever since we homed her. We've never left them in kennels or with anyone else even for one night. They've only been left for surgery at the vets. Twice in the past after operations we've had to collect her early because she has driven herself bonkers barking the place down. Barney on the other hand just kept taking his drip out when he's been at the vets.......

From what we already know now. 

We've turned down the partial jaw removal, that's a no go for her as she is and we think it would be cruel at her age for her. That's not to say it doesn't work and isn't the best course of treatment for other dogs, it just isn't for ours, given her operation track record.

1,The pednisone we would give daily at home with a weekly blood test.

2,The chemo we would give daily at home with a two weekly visit for the vet to give one treatment, I think that needs a weekly blood test and a monthly one and some other checks. Also some other regular checks but the vet said she would go into them if we decided to go ahead. 

This treatment we are told would be for life, not just several treatments, she would need them right through the her remaining time.


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## Penny and Barneys Mum (Jan 17, 2012)

PrincessDaisy said:


> We got a diagnosis in April 2009 of advanced Mast Cell. Our Ivory was given 4 to 6 months even with chemo (vinoblastin[sp]). Only surgery option was removal of a fore paw. Quality of life would not allow me to do that to my dog. I changed her diet from Purina 1 to near raw (blanched) chicken with coconut oil and unsweetened coconut flakes, astrogalas, tumeric (curcumin), vitamines A, D, E, Benedryl and Pepsid... With chemo she lasted 25 months.
> 
> Each of the items in Ivory's diet either contributed to her immune system, or were included to actually fight cancer cells. Benedryl and pepsid were suggested by the oncologist. The blanched but basicly raw chicken is for essential protean and amino acids. The coconut and coconut oil will directly harm cancer cells, as will the tumeric (curcumin) and astrogalas. A, D, E fight free radicals and inhibit cancer growth. Between your grocer and health food store, it is all easily available. Our oncologist was surprised at the shrinkage of the tumor, and the fact that it did not spread for 24 months, but when it did spread, we only had 7 - 10 days before Ivory was too miserable for her to stay with us. We sent her to the Bridge because no one should suffer like she did the last 36 hours. But up until that last 36 hours she was happy and loving as she had always been.
> 
> ...


It is good to know how diet could play such a large part in cancer care. I've never considered that. Pen is fed a good quality canned meat along with a complete dried kibble. Then loads of treats, probably not that good for her but she likes them. 

When my Husband had cancer we read about changing diets but didn't go down that path at that stage, surgery was the option then. 

Did you find that your Ivory was OK with Chemo? I'm finding it hard to consider given all the side effects I've read about. Trying to research to see if I'm worrying about nothing.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

When I had Bear on chemo, the deal the vet and I had was that we could stop at any time. If she didn't do well on chemo we would stop it.
In her case, she did fine. She had some diarrhea, but that turned out to be from the switch in dog food. We were thinking it was from the chemo until I realized my other dog was getting diarrhea as well. I switched them back to the food they had been eating for years and it went away.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Also, talk to your vet about adding supplements.
My oncologist had Bear on lots of supplements as well. Fish oil, milk thistle, Esther C, and some other stuff


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## Penny and Barneys Mum (Jan 17, 2012)

We've been told we could start the chemotherapy and stop at anytime. I just worried about dropping her quality of life by the chemo or being damaging or causing long term damage. 

They've not talked about any suppliments, I can look into that too. 
I read that we would have to be careful with our other dog around Penny when she is taking chemotherapy treatment. I would need to bleach the areas she does her toilet in and I don't know if I would need to ensure Barney didn't drink from her water bowl. We've never been able to get them to drink from different bowls. They eat from different ones though. 

Thanks.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

With Bear's chemo I didn't have to worry about that, but had a friend who did with her dog.
I know they had to pick up her stool with gloves on and rinse the area with bleach. I don't recall the other dog needing a separate water bowl. A good question for the vet though!


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I only have 1 bad experience with chemo and that was my father for lung cancer. He had a chemo treatment every 3 weeks. He would have 1 very bad day, usually about 2 days after the treatment. He wasn't sick all of the time though (which I assumed would be the case)


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## Penny and Barneys Mum (Jan 17, 2012)

Jennifer1 said:


> I only have 1 bad experience with chemo and that was my father for lung cancer. He had a chemo treatment every 3 weeks. He would have 1 very bad day, usually about 2 days after the treatment. He wasn't sick all of the time though (which I assumed would be the case)


So sorry to hear that, I've had various family members that have had chemo and cancer treatments, my husband has also had cancer. So far my Hubby has been the only positive outcome, my family seems to be cancer prone. I live with the fear of my Hubbies cancer coming back, he is due for his annual blood check and results at the beginning of December. Cancer to me is the worst thing in the world, I wish a cure could be found.


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## PrincessDaisy (Dec 20, 2011)

As I said in the previous post, Ivory had no problems with the Vinoblast chemo. The prednisone made her pee a LOT. Also caused runny poops for the first couple of weeks, but there was medication for that.

The goal in chemo for humans is to kill the cancer. We are able to understand and accept the effects. For dogs, the goal of chemo is to stop the spread of the cancer. I am a bit cynical, as stopping the spread prolongs the treatments, and income for the vets. But that is anger at losing my dog rather than cogent thought. Our oncologist was a very sweet and compassionate lady. I pray I never need to place another dog in her care.


Max


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## laurel35 (Dec 31, 2019)

Jennifer1 said:


> Also, talk to your vet about adding supplements.
> My oncologist had Bear on lots of supplements as well. Fish oil, milk thistle, Esther C, and some other stuff


Diet can definitely play a huge part in cancer care-- those omega-3 oils are anti-inflammatory and can shrink tumors! Without certain additions to the diet, the oils won't be water soluble/won't be absorbed by the body though. The Budwig protocol for cancer combines flaxseed oil (an omega-3) with cottage cheese in order to make the oil water soluble. There is a product called Buddy Custard that formulates this specifically for dogs (although it's been proven effective in humans too!!)


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