# River Run Goldens



## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

Does anyone have experience with River Run Goldens ?

I stumble onto their website, and it looks like it could be a good place to get a pup. We are looking for a puppy this summer for a house pet. I've always had goldens that we bought from an ad in the paper, but now the internet makes me go crazy with research any time I make a major purchase.

Thanks, I appreciate any insight you can provide.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Welcome to the forum. Are you from Oklahoma?

Who are the parents of the puppy you're considering? 

I'm trying to find litter info on the website but it is a bit tough to navigate.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I think they are reputable--Trump is my girl's uncle


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Jo is great. She bred to my dog about a year ago but it didn't take. Highly recommended.


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## Chelseanr (Oct 3, 2010)

Wow they look like fantastic breeders, beautiful dogs too!


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## wakemup (Feb 6, 2011)

Jo is the real deal. Honest person with lovely dogs. I saw Trump show in Open obedience, he's a real cutie! I wouldn't hesitate.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

JO has a litter on the ground right now out of a girl with the same sire as Titan. Jo is wonderful.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

I have heard great things from River Run. They are not too far from where I live and I have kept an eye on them myself. Love the multi-purpose Goldens and Trump sure is a neat boy I believe Jo has a litter planned for the Spring (as well as a litter on the ground right now).


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

*I have a River Run golden. He is almost 4, and is a littermate to her Ashley that will be bred to Jagger this spring. I have been very happy with him. Jo breeds dogs that look nice, but still make nice performance prospects.*


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## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

We ended up deciding on getting a puppy from River Run, she comes tuesday--we can't wait!!

I would highly recommend anyone around Oklahoma or Minnesota looking up Jo Meister from River Run Goldens. She has been a true pleasure to work with, and has seemed very caring, patient and knowledgeable throughout the process.


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## jealous1 (Dec 7, 2007)

Congratulations and looking forward the pictures! Have you decided yet on whether you will be getting a boy or a girl? Started thinking of names?


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

*River Run puppy*

*Did you get a girl from the Ruby/Trump litter?*


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## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

Yes, we got the last girl from the Ruby/Trump litter. I think we're going to name her Ruby too.

I tried to post a pic below, not sure if it will work.

She's REALLY cute.


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

*Yes, she is very cute! What are your plans with her?*


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## jealous1 (Dec 7, 2007)

She is adorable--love the little white patch on her chest and looking forward to watching her "grow" into those ears.


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## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

She'll primarily be a family dog, but she'll also be trained as a therapy dog for the Children's Hospital.


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

*I have met Ruby, she is a very nice girl, I also believe she is a therapy dog as well. Sounds like you will provide a good home for this little girl. I hope you enjoy your River Run Golden as much as I enjoy mine!*


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

chwtom said:


> She'll primarily be a family dog, but she'll also be trained as a therapy dog for the Children's Hospital.


My Titan's sire and Ruby's are one and the same! You will love that line!
Congrats ...


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Congrats! We are now related (by dogs, lol). Scout's sire is Trump's full brother  Cousins...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

CUTE!!!! Congrats!
Stretchdrive -- Ashley is the girl they bred to my Fisher but it didn't take. Which "Jagger" are they breeding her to? Fisher has a brother Jagger but that is a common name.


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

K9-Design,
Here is the Jagger they are using.

Pedigree: Am/Can CH. Shilo's Litl Bit Rock and Roll


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

What an ADORABLE puppy! Enjoy! Welcome to the board with Ruby too!


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## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

I have an update on my puppy and River Run Goldens, and unfortunately I would no longer recommend working with Jo Meister.

When I first talked to Jo about her last remaining pup, she said she was 10 weeks old and had a level bite, but that it wouldn't cause her any problems.

Shortly after she arrived, I took her to the vet, who said she had a pretty significant underbite, but that we'd have to wait and see how it looked as she grew. 

Her bite problems are now pretty severe. We have taken her to 3 vets and 2 vet dentists, and all agree that significant and costly work needs to be done on her mouth. When I first called Jo about the problems and to ask her advice, her first words were "that's not how it was when she left". She's been defensive since. She has chosen not to believe anything any of my vets or vet dentists have said about our pup, despite me sending her pictures and all vet records. She disagreed with the plan before hearing what all the problems were, seeing the pictures, or seeing the records. She has implied that we don't care about our puppy because we are listening to our experts and getting surgery.

She has refused to refund any of the $1500 I paid for the puppy. If this was an inexpensive puppy, or the problems were unforseeable, I could understand. But we paid a lot of money for our puppy, and she specifically said this would not cause her any problems.

Jo was great to deal with when things were going fine, but as soon as problems developed she became defensive and evasive. She does not accept responsibility when one of her breedings has problems. I cannot recommend her to anyone, and I would use caution using one of her dogs in breeding as there is at least one case of a significant malformation. 

I don't want her to need surgery, I'm sick about it. But the vets and dentists told us that her bite is one of the worst they have seen in a golden, and without intervention it is going to get worse.


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## oakleysmommy (Feb 20, 2011)

i am so sorry to hear about this....thats just awful the breeder cant even take responsibility???


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## oakleysmommy (Feb 20, 2011)

do you have any pics you can post??


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I definitely feel for you and it is an unfortunate situation.
However, you purchased the puppy knowing it was not "perfect." The breeder was aware of her level bite and made you very aware of it. While Jo may have EXPECTED that the dog would grow out of it, she is not god and can not GUARANTEE the dog would have a perfect bite as an adult. Shortly after purchasing the dog you took it to your own vet who told you to wait and see. Again -- no guarantee.
It is very unfortunate but I am not sure how the breeder could have guaranteed against it or warned you more appropriately of the issue.
What has she offered as a resolution? If she has completely avoided the issue and done absolutely nothing then I agree, that is not acceptable. But has she offered to have the dog seen by her own vet, to return your money if you return the pup, etc? Frankly I would not refund fully the purchase price AND let the people keep the pup, especially since they knew going in that the bite was not perfect. I suspect she feels the same.
What would make YOU happy in this? Have you expressed that to the breeder?
I also would be curious to see photos.


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## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

I asked her to refund half of the purchase price, which was 1500. She was not willing to do this or anything else. I was very clear that if she was willing to that, I wouldn't go back asking for more later if the dog needed future surgeries, and said I'd be willing to sign to that effect.

She asked me to send all of the pup's records as well as photos so she could review them with her vet, but then never got back to me with any information from her vet.

The only thing she said was that she wouldn't do the surgery (a recommendation she made prior to seeing any records), and that I could send her back for a refund of the purchase price. Besides the fact that we've already spent a lot of money on the dog, we love her and and I wouldn't ever send the message to my kids that if a dog isn't perfect you send it back.

I don't want to be rid of the dog. I just want some help with the medical bills. The dog cost 1500 and we've already spent more than that getting her jaw and teeth fixed, when the breeder said it wouldn't be a problem. I'm not asking her to predict the future, just for her to stand behind the dog she bred. I didn't ask for nor expect a perfect bite, but I did not expect a bite that would requrie expensive surgery to correct, especially since she specifically said it wouldn't cause her problems.


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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

I feel for ya, and I am by no means an expert, would love to hear some other breeders opinions on situations such as this. Reading over her contract it seems the remedy she offers if there is a problem with the puppy is you return it. This seems to be the basic solution most breeders use in situations like this.

"The owner will have the option of receiving a full refund for the purchase price of the puppy or a replacement puppy if one of comparable value is available. If there are no comparable litter mates available for adoption, the owner may have the option of reserving a puppy from an upcoming anticipated litter if one exists. "

I know it must stink to consider sending her back. When you took her to the vet were you aware of how much it was going to cost to have the surgery? I would think that would have been the best time to return the puppy for another, it sounds like she breeds very nice dogs and this dog was just a "fluke".

Other then refunding you the price for the dog if you return it or getting another from a future breeding, I'm not sure there's anything else she can do.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

chwtom said:


> I have an update on my puppy and River Run Goldens, and unfortunately I would no longer recommend working with Jo Meister.
> 
> When I first talked to Jo about her last remaining pup, she said she was 10 weeks old and had a level bite, but that it wouldn't cause her any problems.
> 
> ...


There is no crystal ball for breeders to look into and see the future. The breeder very well may have not thought that the bite would cause any problems for the puppy in the future. The specialists that you're seeing-- what do they say is wrong with the mouth? How is it impacting Ruby's life? 

I agree with K9Design's post. I woudn't expect a refund when you knew in advance that the puppy had a bad bite, because all parties involved knew that it 'could' get better with age. The other side to that coin is that it could not, too.


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## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

Returning her for a refund doesn't make a lot of sense, at least for me. First, we've grown attached to her. Second, if we send her back, SOMEONE is going to have to pay for her medical care and take care of her while she recovers. I'm not going to pawn her problems on someone else. I'm willing to take care of her, i was just asking the breeder for some help and to take some responsibility for her breeding.

I asked her to refund 750 of the purchase price and then I would cover all the rest of her medical bills along with keeping her in a loving home. If she takes the dog back and gives me 1500, it's going to cost her more than 750. She'll either have to pay the bills herself, or sell the dog to someone willing to pay for her medical care. I guarantee you nobody is going to pay 1500 for a 5 month old dog who needs a couple grand worth of medical procedures.


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## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

I agree with K9Design's post. I woudn't expect a refund when you knew in advance that the puppy had a bad bite, because all parties involved knew that it 'could' get better with age. The other side to that coin is that it could not, too.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't told it was a bad bite, I was told it was a level bite. I was told it was a purely cosmetic issue that wouldn't cause her problems. It wasn't "it could go either way, either cause problems or not". 

If I had known it was a "it could go either way" then I wouldn't have been willing to pay 1500 for a dog that might rack up medical bills.


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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

I'm actually curious about the bite, was it that bad to really affect her? I ask because I actually had jaw surgery myself, people say it affects the way you eat etc, but imo it's purely cosmetic. I would love to see pictures, I've never seen a dog with a underbite etc.

I see where your coming from on it only costing the breeder 750 instead of 1500, maybe she is a stickler for following her own rules?


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

jagmanbrg said:


> "The owner will have the option of receiving a full refund for the purchase price of the puppy or a replacement puppy if one of comparable value is available. If there are no comparable litter mates available for adoption, the owner may have the option of reserving a puppy from an upcoming anticipated litter if one exists. "


Brady's breeder had similar writing in her contract, and to be honest with you because of the writing, it is just like not having any contract. I think it is an easy way out. What respectable owner is going to give a puppy back to the breeder after falling in love with it?

I think because this puppy had a known flaw that "could of cost" money in the future, the her price should have been dropped in the begining or the breeder should be working with the owner. At least get back to her about what the breeder's vet has found. The breeder now not getting back to the owner does sound a little fishy.


addition to post: I just looked up level bite, and I guess although a level bite is not ideal, there is nothing wrong with a level bite. I too had a dog with an under bite, we used to tease him all the time he needed braces. It never caused him any issues. I would like to learn more about what problems you dog had, and whether the vet noticed anything at her first vet check.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I would like to see photos of the bite, too. I grew up with a golden with a pretty significant underbite and it never caused her any problems - she lived until she was 15.5 years old. I'm just wondering how much worse your pup's could possibly be? Not that I don't think she has it, I'm just curious really.

This is one of those situations where I'm not sure anything the breeder does will make you happy, and I mean that with the utmost compassion towards you and your situation. I wouldn't want to give back the pup either - but it sounds like that's what the contract requires in order to get a full refund. And you agreed to it, so really the breeder isn't doing anything wrong. Is there any sort of guarantee in the agreement regarding hereditary or genetic health conditions?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

As has been discussed previously on this forum, the "guarantee" which is to return the pup to get the full refund, is really no guarantee at all. Who wants to give up a pup they've fallen in love with?

What have I done when an unforseen occurrence has developed in a young pup I have sold? I have returned the full purchase price and let the owner keep the dog. I fully realize that when you breed dogs with all the clearances to dogs with all the clearances, that bad things still happen. I have to live with myself and my conscience.

If a sold a pup with a "condition" and told the owner that it was purely cosmetic then I would stand behind it if it turned out to be more than cosmetic. I don't know the breeder in question at all, but it sounds like she didn't think the bite would be a problem. Now, it turns out the bite (in the opinion of many experts) IS a problem... shouldn't there be compensation?

Years ago, one of the technicians I work with bought a golden who as a young pup started with horrible skin issues. She let the breeder know. A short time later, she received a check for the full purchase price of the dog(she didn't even ask for it). I still continued to recommend that breeder because she stood behind her dogs.

A few years back, my friend bred her black lab. 2 pups she bred ended up with hock OCD. Both dogs needed surgery... she asked me what I would do. I said I'd refund the money... she did and in the long run, everyone was happy.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

Luckily I have never had any of these problems, but a contract which requires you to return a dog for any refund is a sham. I believe there was another thread recently about a dog with a bite issue with the same kind of results, the breeder offering no help. As the OP said $1500 is a high price and one would not expect big issues.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Ian'sgran said:


> Luckily I have never had any of these problems, but a contract which requires you to return a dog for any refund is a sham. I believe there was another thread recently about a dog with a bite issue with the same kind of results, the breeder offering no help. As the OP said $1500 is a high price and one would not expect big issues.


See, I disagree with this. I don't think there IS a good answer.
There is a HUGE variation in what a breeder, buyer and veterinarian might think is a problem big enough to warrant a refund. If the breeder's contract says something to the effect that they will refund a partial amount for an unforeseen medical problem, the problem is, WHO decides where you draw the line at "PROBLEM"???? The breeder, the owner, the breeder's vet, the owner's vet?
With a contract like that, at what point is the breeder responsible. For a dog with bad hip dysplasia, or mild hip dysplasia? Dog with horrid allergies, or mildly itchy skin? There is a huge gray area and you open yourself up to making nobody happy instead of everybody happy.
If instead you have a black and white, if you are unhappy, return the puppy and I will give you your money back, that is cut and dry for everyone. It may be not what the buyer wants to do, but if they want their money back, that is the deal. They can't have their cake and eat it too. (keep puppy AND get their money back) They signed to this in the contract.

I still would not jump to conclusions on a 5 month old puppy with a weird bite. Sorry but that's just my experience with seeing some pretty bad bites at that age that turn out completely normal.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> What have I done when an unforseen occurrence has developed in a young pup I have sold? I have returned the full purchase price and let the owner keep the dog. I fully realize that when you breed dogs with all the clearances to dogs with all the clearances, that bad things still happen. I have to live with myself and my conscience.
> 
> If a sold a pup with a "condition" and told the owner that it was purely cosmetic then I would stand behind it if it turned out to be more than cosmetic. I don't know the breeder in question at all, but it sounds like she didn't think the bite would be a problem. Now, it turns out the bite (in the opinion of many experts) IS a problem... shouldn't there be compensation?



While this is noble and generous, if it was not spelled out in the contract it is not required nor would the buyer have the right to expect such an outcome. 
I am sorry you are going through this but look into your contract and see what it says. That is what you should expect from the breeder as that is what BOTH parties agreed to. And if they decide to go above and beyond that great.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My contract actually doesn't guarantee anything... except that at the time of purchase, the pup is healthy. I personally don't think that you can make guarantees about living, breathing beings. However, I have done everything in my power to breed my own dogs with generations of clearances to stud dogs with generations of clearances... but that doesn't in any way mean all pups will be without problems. I have always felt that if a significant problem arises, I would just give the money back, period. In fact, in my first litter I bred, the owners were still complaining to my friends who groomed her about her jumping behavior when she was 3 years of age. I called them up and offered to take her back AND give them their money back. Of course, they really just wanted to complain and they didn't take me up on it. I only offered to take the dog back as they seemed to not want to train her. But at 3 years of age, I really had no obligation...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Well, I have a day job that pays my bills. And I still have to look in a mirror and like that person I see...


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

I think this may go to the question of what is a good breeder, not just what one is legally obliged to do. This was not a case where some completely unforeseen thing came about. The breeder knew there was something not quite right about the bite, and was upfront in mentioning it, if not in detailing the implications. The OP may have been remiss in not checking out what level bite meant, legally, of course. But as the OP said, what would the breeder do with this dog were returned? Business is business, caveat emptor and all that, but is a good breeder really all about business? I know nothing about dog's teeth, or medical issues. If this is a medical or cosmetic issue. I do know more than a little about ethical issues. Like Sally's Mom, were I the breeder I would have refunded the money or at least the half the OP asked for and allowed them to keep and treat the dog.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> Well, I have a day job that pays my bills. And I still have to look in a mirror and like that person I see...


I think I like the person you see, too.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I agree that in a perfect world it would be nice of the breeder to refund the money even if she wasn't obligated to contractually. I just have a problem with a breeder is getting criticized for following what is written in the contract.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Sally's Mom said:


> Who wants to give up a pup they've fallen in love with?
> 
> What have I done when an unforseen occurrence has developed in a young pup I have sold? I have returned the full purchase price and let the owner keep the dog. I fully realize that when you breed dogs with all the clearances to dogs with all the clearances, that bad things still happen. I have to live with myself and my conscience.


Bless you for remembering that when it's all said and done what really matters is making sure an animal receives medical care and that you can live with yourself. Sometimes it is necessary for all of us to go above and beyond what is actually 'in writing' to make sure that the right thing is done and we can sleep at night.

You sound like a breeder anyone would be lucky to have a puppy from. Thanks for walking the walk.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

For what it's worth, I just re-worked a contract for a breeder friend and I included a provision that if the puppy was diagnosed with a heart, eye, hip or elbow condition by 26 months of age, the buyer can keep the puppy, spay/neuter the puppy (contract was for a show puppy), and receive a refund of half the purchase price. I think that's a fair agreement, but it needs to be in the contract. 

But I'm not convinced even that type of provision in an agreement would cover a bad bite.... and like Anney said above - where would you draw the line? I doubt any breeder (at least any breeder in their right mind) would contract that they refund the full purchase price for any and all health conditions.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> For what it's worth, I just re-worked a contract for a breeder friend and I included a provision that if the puppy was diagnosed with a heart, eye, hip or elbow condition by 26 months of age, the buyer can keep the puppy, spay/neuter the puppy (contract was for a show puppy), and receive a refund of half the purchase price. I think that's a fair agreement, but it needs to be in the contract.
> 
> But I'm not convinced even that type of provision in an agreement would cover a bad bite.... and like Anney said above - where would you draw the line? I doubt any breeder (at least any breeder in their right mind) would contract that they refund the full purchase price for any and all health conditions.


Completely agree here. There is so much gray area like Anney said. The breeder would have to abide by the contract. It would be nice for the breeder to give the OP 1/2 the money. But, I know there are always 2 sides to every story. I would love to see pics too!


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

*Pet Orthodontics*

Just as one would seek to cure a painful skin condition, or treat a sore joint in their pet, one should also consider relieving pain brought on by orthodontic abnormalities. Poorly aligned teeth can lead to serious periodontal disease. In most breeds, teeth are arranged "shoulder to shoulder," in an arch. A self cleaning mechanism occurs in the arch to push food away from the teeth and gums. If the teeth are not aligned normally, food may be retained between the teeth causing inflammation and infection.
It is important to understand the head shape when determining normal bite relationships in various breeds. There are three basic head shapes for dogs. Those with long and narrow muzzles (Rough Collies, Borzoi, Doberman, Greyhound, Saluki); those with a short and wide muzzles (Bulldog, Pug, Pekingese, Boxer, Boston Terrier, Shih Tzu); and dogs with medium length and width muzzles (Labrador Retriever, German Shepherd Dog, most Spaniels, Terriers, and Hounds). Cats also have different head shapes which vary from the short muzzled Persian to the longer muzzled Siamese.
*








Normal scissors bite, notice the
midline of upper and lower jaws
are aligned*

*








Normally, the lower canine
should intersect the upper
lateral incisor and upper canine*

The normal bite of dogs and cats with medium or long length and width muzzles is called a scissors bite. The upper incisors are located in front of the lower incisors when the mouth is closed, and there is a smooth curve from canine to canine without misplaced or rotated teeth. The lower canines should lie exactly between the upper lateral incisors and upper canines, yet touching neither. Premolar crown tips should point to a space between the crowns of the opposing premolars. In dogs that have a short, wide muzzle, a reverse scissors bite is considered normal where the lower incisors are in front of the upper incisors. The lower canines and premolars will also be shifted forward. While the reverse scissors bite is an acceptable breed standard, at times the upper incisors cause trauma and pain to lower jaw tissues.
*Genetic or Not*

*








**
Underbite, undershot prognathic skelatal
malocclusion*

An * under bite* (under shot, reverse scissors bite, prognathism, class 3) occurs when the lower teeth protrude in front of the upper jaw teeth. Some short muzzled breeds (Boxers, English Bull Dogs, Shih-Tzus, and Lhasa Apsos) normally have an under bite, but when it occurs in medium muzzled breeds it is abnormal. When the upper and lower incisor teeth meet each other edge to edge, the occlusion is considered * an even or level* bite. Constant contact between upper and lower incisors can cause uneven wear, periodontal disease, and early tooth loss. Level bite is considered normal in some breeds, although it is actually an expression of under bite.
*







*
I googled and found the above info. Were it my dog I would be doing what the vet dentist said. And as is says above a level bite would not be a good thing for a pup. I still believe the whole thing rests on the fact that the breeder knew about this condition at the time of sale. Of course, a breeder can't be responsible for every possible thing which could go wrong with a dog they bred, but in this case at the very least they knew that something was amiss right from the start assuming the OP states everything correctly.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Legally, by the contract, the breeder is under no obligation... however, the dog was sold with a condition that the new owner was told would not be a problem. There is a big difference in what a level bite looks like and what an underbite looks like... and for me morally, if I told someone "oh this is no dig deal" and it turned into a big deal, I would feel obligated to compensate.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My first golden that I actually bred, came with the kind of contract that guaranteed final clearances, etc. I think if she didn't clear, then I could get another "show potential" pup at the "pet" price. I was also supposed to be compensated for clearances, titles(she has 5 and a CGC), etc. Well I wasn't because these were things that I would've done anyway AND I believed that her breeder needed the money more than I did.... It was all spelled out in 3 pages....


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

An undershot or overshot bite, if severe enough, can definitely affect quality of life, as it can be very difficult for the dog to eat. Many years ago in the clinic we saw a setter with a bad enough underbite that the upper teeth were injuring the inside of the lower jaw, and several had to be pulled. 
As a breeder, I would certainly be helping with any medical expenses.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

jagmanbrg said:


> The owner will have the option of receiving a full refund for the purchase price of the puppy or a replacement puppy if one of comparable value is available. If there are no comparable litter mates available for adoption, the owner may have the option of reserving a puppy from an upcoming anticipated litter if one exists.


Here's the thing. If the breeder is willing to take the dog back and refund the purchase price, the breeder is then out the $1500 plus the cost of medical care. If the breeder simply refunds part or all of the $1500, that's the total cost.

That makes it clear that this kind of clause is only a hollow guarantee. The breeder is technically risking more money, so the only reason to do it is to say you have a guarantee but know that almost nobody will make you honor it because they won't be willing to give up their beloved dog. A real guarantee (of 50% or 100% of the purchase price) would be cheaper if you really meant it.

Breeders can't guarantee for all health problems, and I'm not necessarily saying that the breeder in this situation should refund some or all of the purchase price. But that kind of guarantee really bugs me. I can see a refund/exchange guarantee for that first couple of weeks while the buyer gets the puppy checked out at the vet. But after that, who would trade their dog in?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

*Really?*



chwtom said:


> Returning her for a refund doesn't make a lot of sense, at least for me. First, we've grown attached to her. Second, if we send her back, SOMEONE is going to have to pay for her medical care and take care of her while she recovers. I'm not going to pawn her problems on someone else. I'm willing to take care of her, i was just asking the breeder for some help and to take some responsibility for her breeding.
> 
> I asked her to refund 750 of the purchase price and then I would cover all the rest of her medical bills along with keeping her in a loving home. If she takes the dog back and gives me 1500, it's going to cost her more than 750. She'll either have to pay the bills herself, or sell the dog to someone willing to pay for her medical care. I guarantee you nobody is going to pay 1500 for a 5 month old dog who needs a couple grand worth of medical procedures.



Hello,
I have been reading this thread with interest. You said your initial vet told you to wait and see. Then you called the breeder, and she asked you to wait. This is a 4 month old puppy- her jaw is not developed. Upper and lower don't develop at the same time. You said you didn't want to discuss whether you should or shouldn't do anything about her bite- you were not interested in that topic, you just wanted to know how much $$ responsibility the breeder has in the whole thing. So you didn't want to be told it was a bad idea, which every single person who responded to you initially told you. It IS a bad idea. The breeder was being responsible in total by telling you to wait. Absolutely no question. I wouldn't in a million years subsidize a surgery I felt was detrimental to the puppy and while this has turned quite inflamatory the real issue is you obviously pursued a second opinion when your vet told you wait and see and your breeder told you wait and see. 
You were asked to wait- how long did you wait? It looks like from posting dates as if you waited 3 days or so- is that really the truth? I'd like to see the photos as well. I cannot imagine a bite being bad enough that I would want to remove the teeth of a 4 month old. The deciduous teeth are there for a reason and you have removed them surgically, before they should come out.

I also find it almost unbelieveable that the breeder wouldn't have been more than willing to refund half of the purchase price if you had waited until the jaw developed and there was STILL a problem. That seems more than reasonable- and you keep the puppy. But what I see here is that you decided to seek a surgery. 
Good breeders are experts in their field. They know more about their pedigree than anyone else, and as much else as they can glean, most good breeders' vets would tell you that the breeders are a source of info for them on repro and neonates. Best of all they can be your friend when it comes to advice and support for the puppy they produced and you both love. If the breeder (and I am willing to bet 100% of breeders/exhibitors would agree with her) asked you to wait until her jaw was developed, you broke any contract and left yourself without remedy by denying her request. And it seems, you also have created quite a drama here, and I find it mortifying that one human being would set out to damage another's good reputation simply because they didn't see eye to eye. You took on total responsibility for that bill when you did the surgery even though she asked you not to. 

FWIW, her bite might well have been perfectly fine when her jaw developed. I personally once had a Shiba whose bite was completely wry at 5 months. It was fine and perfect scissors at 7 months and he finished CH at 12 months. We will never know what would have happened with your bitch's bite. You stated in the above post that SOMEone would have to bear the cost of her medical care- that may or may not be true. You say someone would have to take care of her while she recovers- that is only true because you allowed a surgery on a 4 mo old puppy. None of the second paragraph is true- because your breeder wouldn't have done the surgery. I don't think any responsible breeder would. 
I don't mean to be harsh- I just think that you are being completely unreasonable, and you disregarded the breeder's wishes, and I know her to be a sane, caring and responsible breeder who certainly doesn't deserve her name being tied into what has become a bully fest. You were wrong, bud, sorry. 
Robin Bowen, who is always on the side of the puppy


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I do not think the pup has had surgery yet...or am I reading the OP's post wrong!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

*Post #27*

Yes, she has had her teeth removed- see post 27.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

The OP posted this at 2:45 p.m. today: Post 25

"I don't want her to need surgery, I'm sick about it. But the vets and dentists told us that her bite is one of the worst they have seen in a golden, and without intervention it is going to get worse. "

So, I am confused too.... did the pup have surgery because also in post 27 it states at the bottom of the new owner maybe having to pay for medical surgeries as it has not been done yet


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

chwtom said:


> I don't want her to need surgery, I'm sick about it. But the vets and dentists told us that her bite is one of the worst they have seen in a golden, and without intervention it is going to get worse.


 
Here I am under the impression, the OP has not taken the pup in yet


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

chwtom said:


> I guarantee you nobody is going to pay 1500 for a 5 month old dog who needs a couple grand worth of medical procedures.


Here is where the pup is not had any procedures yet


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

chwtom said:


> I don't want to be rid of the dog. I just want some help with the medical bills. The dog cost 1500 and we've already spent more than that getting her jaw and teeth fixed, when the breeder said it wouldn't be a problem. .


But, then I guess the pup did get fixed??


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...breeder-responsibilities-health-problems.html

He has another thread going on this puppy, so I have been reading these both, and putting the info together.
Robin


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Good Gosh!!


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## oakleysmommy (Feb 20, 2011)

did he or didnt he have surgery im confused as well


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

oakleysmommy said:


> did he or didnt he have surgery im confused as well


haha!! Me too! But, it sounds like the pup had the baby teeth pulled??


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I did voice my veterinary opinion about waiting to extract teeth in the other thread. But that wasn't what the OP was looking for. I still stand behind my statement that if I sell a dog with a condition that I think won't impact the dog's future and it does, money would be coming the owner's way.

However, I do not agree with coming on this forum when a dog has a problem and "bad mouthing" the breeder right off the bat. I am not accusing the OP of doing this, but this can be a trend of users of this forum.... remember dogs aren't perfect and neither are we.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I've changed my opinion, or more my opinion has evolved over time, about health issues in pups whose parents have all clearances and whose breeder has disclosed problems in their line truthfully, upfront, ahead of time: it is my problem once the dog is on my watch. However, when a problem shows up that the breeder knew full well was a risk in the line/ specific breeding, but concealed it , then I think the breeder should be accountable. I have had both experiences. I have a dog with mild epilepsy that runs in the line who I treasure and care for without expectation of the breeder, but I returned show pup with a 4/5 heart murmur at the 1st 48 hour wellness check bc, to me, that is a sorrow that the breeder is accountable for seeing through. Things in the grey area like elbow dysplasia in a puppy with 2 normal parents hopefully keeps the puppy's welfare in mind with financial support/team work from both buyer and breeder depending on personal circumstances. If it is a true fluke, then it is on the buyer; if the breeder kind of knew ED showed up in the family tree fairly often though the parents passed OFAs, then I think that puts more responsibility on the breeder. Fact finding though, is very difficult. The contracts themselves are neither here nor there in some states with tough lemon laws, and are hard to enforce at the best of times. Hopefully though, people are ethical enough to both abide by a contract bc it is the right thing to do, but in terms of a real binding document, a contract is a shakey tool on both sides.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> I've changed my opinion, or more my opinion has evolved over time, about health issues in pups whose parents have all clearances and whose breeder has disclosed problems in their line truthfully, upfront, ahead of time: it is my problem once the dog is on my watch. However, when a problem shows up that the breeder knew full well was a risk in the line/ specific breeding, but concealed it , then I think the breeder should be accountable. I have had both experiences. I have a dog with mild epilepsy that runs in the line who I treasure and care for without expectation of the breeder, but I returned show pup with a 4/5 heart murmur at the 1st 48 hour wellness check bc, to me, that is a sorrow that the breeder is accountable for seeing through. Things in the grey area like elbow dysplasia in a puppy with 2 normal parents hopefully keeps the puppy's welfare in mind with financial support/team work from both buyer and breeder depending on personal circumstances. If it is a true fluke, then it is on the buyer; if the breeder kind of knew ED showed up in the family tree fairly often though the parents passed OFAs, then I think that puts more responsibility on the breeder. Fact finding though, is very difficult. The contracts themselves are neither here nor there in some states with tough lemon laws, and are hard to enforce at the best of times. Hopefully though, people are ethical enough to both abide by a contract bc it is the right thing to do, but in terms of a real binding document, a contract is a shakey tool on both sides.


 
Honesty and ethics trump a contract, IMO, and helping make something right/easier for the puppies that I have bred - and who did not ask to be born, thereby making them my ultimate responsibilty - go a very long way towards good will and maintaining a good reputation.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

This is one of the reasons I could not be a breeder. You put yout time, money and heart on the line (no pun intended) and there are still situations that are unclear. Then, even though you've shown good faith, unforseen medical issues happen and your name is besmirched in a public setting, through only one side.
I don't know enough about the subject to know what should happen, but it is very unfortunate that someone's name is discredited this way.
This is very unfortunate.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I am not sure how I feel about this whole thing... I know that I don't like the breeder bashing that occurs often.... and I know there are two sides to every story but none the less and we are clearly only getting one side of that story although considering how this board runs i am sure the breeder will magically show up any day now. 

I have mixed emotions... about contracts... In this case I understand the bite has gone off but I have also seen vets (especially in hard economic times) who would go above and beyond what really is necessary and I don't see a problem with letting the breeders vet take a look at the pup. If the work has already been done then honestly I am not sure that I wouldn't have a problem with that. Was the bite really a problem or an overzealous vet who can really know. 

I have a dog with severe epilepsy, he has cost me a mint, but I have never asked his breeder for money back for him although when I went and bred to one of her stud dogs she didn't charge me a stud fee,,,, is that the same, maybe. 

I have gone beyond what my contract says but where do you draw the line. I have seen puppies at two who are grossly overweight or pounding the pavement running with their owners at 6 mos. and no matter what you tell them many pet people just don't listen. At what point is that my responsibility and at what point is it their responsibility? I have a pet person right now with a puppy that has been allowed to chew rocks despite my repeatedly telling her not to let her do that.... the pup has been brought to a barn (where dogs are not allowed) and been allowed to harass horses at a young age, I am surprised she has not been kicked.... She has jumped fences and been run... and not surprisingly she has torn her cruciates, is that my fault? Or the family that despite everything decided to spay their girl at 4 mos... and now hs a tall leggy dog and broke the contract... where does that fall.... ??? and how can we as breeders really have any control once that puppy leaves our care. I just don't know.... 

just my rambling two cents 
s


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

There are actually three threads about this. This is the original one when the OP was just asking for info about the breeder and began before anything happened and then was updated with the problems. Then the OP posted one titled Breeder Responsibility for heath issues, then A warning about --breeders name. The long post by Prism defending the breeder is one of only three posts by that person, all pertaining to this issue, so I am assuming Prism is either the breeder or a friend. As someone said above, sooner or later that happens.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

You are correct, I don't usually post. 
However, this has nothing to do with being a breeder, or being a friend of Jo's- though I do know her to be honest and fair- my very long post was about how wrong it was to do surgery on a 4 mo old puppy, when the puppy's jaw could not be developed at that age. Any breeder would ask the owner to wait. It's wrong to traumatize a puppy like that for a cosmetic issue that could be resolved with age. That's all.
Robin Bowen


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

ok so there is another piece of this puzzle... surgery being done at 4 mos. .... I do think I would have an issue with that... bites go in and out and at 4 mos. of age you have no idea where that bite will end up.... Prism is right... any corrective work should not have been done until the pup was done growing...


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

I admit my complete ignorance about dog teeth and growth issues. However, in the article I found on pet orthodontics it did discuss pulling puppy teeth in some circumstances, and isn't that what happened here? It was just puppy teeth that were pulled so the others would have a chance to come in properly, right? Guess we need to OP to say what actually was done. Perhaps they did and I missed it on one of the other threads.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I just did a google search for "River Run Goldens" and this thread came up on the first page. Regardless of anyone's opinion regarding the contract terms, I think we can all agree this is an unfortunate situation. But I really don't think it's fair to pass judgment on a breeder when we only have one side of the story. (Isn't the saying that there are 3 sides to a story, each party's side and then what actually happened?) Particularly when it could have a long standing impact on their reputation, given my google results.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

That is unfortunate. Perhaps if the title of the thread were changed that could help.


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## Elicariota (Nov 28, 2009)

I’m not the breeder, don’t know the breeder nor Ruby’s owner. Since joining a couple years ago, I’ve only browsed this forum occasionally, but this topic has piqued my interest because I bought a show/performance puppy from a breeder in 2009 who also developed a pretty severe underbite. I first mentioned it to my breeder and vet when the pup was 4 months and they both suggested waiting a few months. At 6.5 months, I took him to a veterinary dentist who explained how the upper and lower jaws grow at different rates and just to keep and eye on it. He is now almost 2 and I watched the bite correct itself, go wry, and back to being an underbite by the time he was about 8 months. He is still undershot, but there is no gum involvement now and it does not affect his chewing. So I do think CHWTOM should have followed the breeder’s (and vet’s) advice and waited a bit.


I imagine all breeders have issues such as this occasionally and unfortunately it’s a gray area. Whether a dog develops allergies, epilepsy, dysplasia, entropion… it’s difficult to list every potential problem in a contract and what the breeder will stand behind. Most good breeders plan their litters carefully, have CH titles on the dam/sire, do a myriad of health screenings, and hope for the best. When I purchased my dogs, I accepted full responsibility for their care, including any medical issues that may arise (and lean heavily on my breeder(s) for their expertise and advice). 



Regarding this breeder’s responsibility, it seems that going against her advice may negated any potential remuneration from the breeder. Had he waited and followed her advice, the breeder _might_ have been more willing to work with him. Slandering her in a public forum sure isn’t going to result in an amicable resolution.


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## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

If this helps...

at 4 months I took my pup in to the vet at the suggestion of a friend. The vet suggested we take the pup in to see a dentist, as her bite was getting bad and her puppy teeth weren't falling out, which was causing her adult teeth to come in crooked (towards her throat I guess you'd say) and have her upper teeth hit her lower gums when she bit down. She had dents and bruising on her lower gums from her upper teeth hitting them. The vet and dentist suggested pulling the teeth, saying it might give her more chance of not needing future surgeries on her teeth. I called the breeder who said she didn't believe dog's that age would ever need surgery, and suggested getting another opinion.

We took her to another vet, who agreed with the others. The other vet said removing the teeth sooner rather than later was a good idea because her teeth and jaw were evolving.

So we had the puppy teeth removed. 

We took her back in a month or so later. Now her upper teeth aren't hitting her lower gums, but only because her bite is now wry or crooked, and her canines are preventing her teeth from closing fully. The vet denstist and vet said she had one of the more severe cases they've seen in a golden and said it definitely wasn't a cosmetic issue. They said the longer we wait to address it, the more wry or crooked her jaw will form. 

Of note the vet and vet dentist don't know eachother, but both had the same opinion.

I talked to the breeder about giving us some money back to help with medical costs. Our original purchase price was 1500, and after this next surgery we'll be over 2000 in medical costs. I asked her for half our purchase price back, which would be 750. I think this is very fair and reasonable, but I'm not an expert in these matters. The vet suggested I ask her for some money back.

I don't want her to need surgery, but multiple providers have suggested she needs it, and that waiting could make things worse. I appreciate the input here, but I'm not going to delay something for my pup based on recommendations of anyone who hasn't seen her and isn't an expert in the field. 

The breeder asked for copies of all the pup's medical records to ask her experts about it. Since I went to 3 different places in 3 different towns, it took some time to get that information together for her. She never responded, and just said she didn't agree with our plan so she wouldn't give us any money back. She said she thought the puppy would be happier with her. 

The breeder went from a nice, helpful person when things were going well to evasive and rude when a problem arose. From the first time I called her to tell her about the problems with the pup's jaw, she was defensive and implied we didn't care about the dog if we would do any procedures at this age. She said she didn't need any surgery before she saw any medical records. 

I didn't mean this to get into a he-said, she-said thing. I understand this is a one-sided portrayal (though I really don't know what I've done wrong other than give the pup love, attention, and the best medical care I could find), but I thought this was a forum for people to look into finding a breeder. If I were looking for a breeder, I would want to know about how things typically go, but also how things go when there are problems. I am simply here to report how things go with River Run when there are problems. 

I started this post to tell people how great things were initially, so it's not like I just have an axe to grind. I feel like I was treated pretty poorly, and I wanted some outlet to report that. I have done everything I could to take care of this pup the best I could, and she has repeatedly suggested otherwise, and that ticks me off.


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## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

Elicariota said:


> I’m not the breeder, don’t know the breeder nor Ruby’s owner. Since joining a couple years ago, I’ve only browsed this forum occasionally, but this topic has piqued my interest because I bought a show/performance puppy from a breeder in 2009 who also developed a pretty severe underbite. I first mentioned it to my breeder and vet when the pup was 4 months and they both suggested waiting a few months. At 6.5 months, I took him to a veterinary dentist who explained how the upper and lower jaws grow at different rates and just to keep and eye on it. He is now almost 2 and I watched the bite correct itself, go wry, and back to being an underbite by the time he was about 8 months. He is still undershot, but there is no gum involvement now and it does not affect his chewing. So I do think CHWTOM should have followed the breeder’s (and vet’s) advice and waited a bit.
> 
> With all due respect (and I'm happy things turned out well for your dog), every dog is different. That your dog turned out fine has nothing to do with mine. It is difficult enough to make decisions like putting a dog through surgery without people who have never seen her saying she'd do fine without it.
> 
> My grandma recovered from cancer despite not getting treatment. I wouldn't recommend that course to everyone with cancer.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Actually $750 bucks is a pretty big axe.... 

You keep going on about you are going to do whats best for your puppy and not take the advice of someone who hasn't seen her... well thats your choice and a sound one but you went against your breeders guidance. You made your choice. The issue here is about money (isn't it always). The breeder suggested not doing what you did ... you did it anyway and now you want her to pay you for it.... 

I had a pup that was diagnosed with entropian when he was 5 mos I think. The owner came to me very concerned because the pup was going to need surgery to correct this eye issue. I strongly suggested that she not do it.... that it was a growth thing.... thank goodness she listened.... he is now three.... no longer has entropian, he grew out of it... when he got to be his adult size and his head quit growing all went where it should in the manner it should and he is fine. 

Its your choice to do what you want with your puppy.... but to go against the breeders recommendations and then want her to give you money back is a whole other thing.... 
and again, we are getting just one side of the story and $750 bucks buys a pretty big axe.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

When I was looking for a breeder there was one I talked to and I do believe she is a fine breeder in that she chooses the dogs she breeds wisely. However, her contract was so restrictive about what I could do or not do with my dog, and how she wasn't responsible for anything that happened after the pup left, I said no thank you. My particular issue was the age of neutering. I wanted to talk with my vet and make the decision and she was adamant. This whole thread is also about who knows best, the vets seeing the dog or the breeder. And that whole issue troubles me. Were multiple vets telling me, as the OP here says, that my dog needed something I really don't care what the breeder thinks because I have no idea what medical knowledge the breeder has. It is also possible that this is an issue of "tone" of voice. Perhaps the breeder would have been more amenable had the OP approached her in a calm and gentle manner. None of us know how those personality things go down. $750 may indeed be a big ax, but $1500 for a puppy with a known possible defect is a big price. And the OP said he had seen multiple vets and vet dentists who recommended the same thing. I believe he said he had sent the breeder the records and she did not respond. Someone said economic times are hard and maybe the vet was recommending unneeded surgery but the same could be said of the breeder. I still hold with my position that if the breeder had no idea anything like this could result she would have far less responsibility to refund the money than if she did and sold the pup for the same price as the others in the litter and did realize the defect.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm kinda stuck on that point too...charging the full $1,500 for a puppy with a known defect, without really knowing at the time how significant it might become. I didn't think responsible breeders would do that


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## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

Shalva said:


> Actually $750 bucks is a pretty big axe....
> 
> You keep going on about you are going to do whats best for your puppy and not take the advice of someone who hasn't seen her... well thats your choice and a sound one but you went against your breeders guidance. You made your choice. The issue here is about money (isn't it always). The breeder suggested not doing what you did ... you did it anyway and now you want her to pay you for it....
> 
> ...


It's hard to take the breeder's recommendation when she made it before seeing the puppy or any of her records. She said she didn't think the puppy needed surgery before she had any information. How is it possible to make a reasonable recommendation without seeing the dog for 2 months or seeing any records? If 3 people who saw the dog recommended surgery, and the person who didn't see her recommeded otherwise (and had an obvious bias in that she didn't want to pay any money), does it make any sense to follow the breeder's advice.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I didn't have to see the pup with entropian to know that he would grow out of it.... this is what drives many breeders crazy.... we know husbandry.... a reputable breeder (and I dont know whether your breeder is or isn't, again as I have said repeatedly it would be nice to have both sides of the story) but none the less a reputable breeder knows their lines and knows husbandry... vets know medicine.... I would never presume to set a broken leg and I honestly wish vets would acknowledge what they know AND what they don't know as well.... and many don't. 

I dont know whether you should or shouldn't have done what you did.... whats done is done... but when you go against your breeders recommendations then that is the risk you take. Now maybe you did the right thing.... maybe you didn't.... but it sure would be nice to hear what the other person has to say.... none the less the issue now is about your wanting your money back yet choosing to disregard your breeders advice.... whether she was right or wrong doesn't even matter you chose to disregard her advice yet you want your money ...that is where my issue lies and that is my only focus... if my breeder tells me to do one thing and I choose to ignore them and do something else then all bets are off... should she have charged you full price in the first place maybe/ maybe not but whatever that is water under the bridge and whats done is done with regard to that issue. 

As far as the other poster who talked about age at which to spay or neuter... and wanting to decide this with their vet... I personally would not sell you a puppy. If you spay or neuter earlier than I recommend it voids your entire health guarantee... I had a vet come to me once for a puppy and when I told him what I expected for vaccines and spay/neuter etc. he said to me that "he was the vet and he will do as he sees fit" and I suggested nicely that he should find another breeder. My responsibility is to the puppy, people come to the house all the time and comment on how beautiful and healthy my personal dogs are... but then they complain about doing what I ask them to do... well folks, the proof is in the pudding. I have real issues with folks who choose to sign a contract to get their puppy and then disregard it and honestly I am kinda getting to the point of the breeder that is mentioned who says she has no control over what happens to the pup after the pup leaves her care... well yeah.. and let me tell you it is really aggravating when you have a hand in bringing these little lives into the world and you do your best to care for them and give them a great start for 10 weeks only to have the puppy person who smiled and nodded disregard everything you tell them and mess it all up... If you don't like how I am asking you to do things then find another breeder who you (generic you) agree with. The problem is that folks are so darned excited to get their adorable little ball of fluff that they will say or do anything to get one even when that means being outright dishonest and signing a contract they have no intention of abiding by. 

just my two cents as always


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

First off a level bite which is what the OP was sold -- IS NOT a defect. There is nothing wrong with a level bite. In the SHOW RING we PREFER a scissors bite but you can even show a dog with a level bite. Now I question why the OP was even told this if it simply was a level bite as an 8 week old puppy -- that makes me assume it was a bit more than just a level bite at that stage (I still am not sure if we are talking about an overbite or underbite but I am assuming underbite. Again -- pictures would be helpful.) But assuming even if the dog had a slight underbite, which is worse than a level bite, then not only did the OP knowingly purchase this but there was NO WAY the breeder could have anticipated it would develop into something needing medical attention. 
It really is about the money at this point. I have a hard time believing that Jo would sell a pet puppy with no written contract; but as of yet the OP cannot remember or find what the contract says about a guarantee, but the breeder has made it clear what here guarantee is: return the dog for a full refund. She has given you this offer and obviously it's not a fun one but it's a fair one. I will assume she is reading every post on this thread, and I don't think more haranguing from the puppy buyer is going to guilt her into doing this his way. Contractually and legally she is not required to give him anything, and I don't think more posts from the OP is going to change that.


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## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

I just wanted to let people know about my experience. If people think that there is nothing wrong with what the breeder did, then they are certainly entitled to their opinion, and they are welcome to practice in a similar manner. It seems that most of the people who think there is nothing wrong with what she did are breeders, for what that's worth.

I did not slander her, I merely reported what happened. If her reputation is tarnished by how she handled the situation, that is on her for handling it that way, not on me for reporting it.

I would like to wait and see how things progress without intervention, but when 3 professionals tell me should could be worse off without doing anything, it is difficult to, in good conscience, do nothing. It is a leap of faith to take the advice of someone who hasn't seen her with the problem, hasn't heard the details of the problem, is not schooled in the problem, and has never encountered the problem in one of her breedings before.

I'm not going to comment anymore on this. I wanted to let people know what happened, and they are welcome to interpret the information as they see fit. I wish it hadn't happened this way, because I really did like her and I do think she cares about how she breeds. Business and money sometimes brings out the worst in people.


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## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

I should add that I don't think the breeder anticipated things would go this bad with the dog, she just happened to be wrong. I also agree that she isn't legally required to do anything. I didn't save a copy of the contract, but she told me what it says--basically that she isn't responsible for anything and that I can return the dog if I don't like it.

My issues are that first, I think she has an ethical responsibility, or at least should feel some responsibility to help with the medical costs when the problem she told me about turned out to be way bigger than what she told me. I didn't ask for a full refund, and I didn't ask her to pay for all the bills, just a fraction of them. Second, I think offering only a return on the dog is a sham guarantee. Nobody is going to return a dog once they've grown attached to them, unless they just can't afford to give them the care they need.

Jo, her friends, and other breeders are welcome to feel otherwise.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

chwtom said:


> I Second, I think offering only a return on the dog is a sham guarantee. Nobody is going to return a dog once they've grown attached to them, unless they just can't afford to give them the care they need.



Well I guess you should have thought of that before you bought your puppy....


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

If a vet and a vet specialist made a recommendation, I'd take it over the advice of the breeder any day. Again, I'm not commenting on the money thing right now, but if I understand what the OP is saying, I agree that there's no way I would take a breeder's recommendation over that of two DVMs, regardless of whether the breeder had seen the medical records.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I am not a breeder. I will most likely never be a breeder because to be as respectable and knowledgeable breeder takes more years of study than I have of life, so...what I say is what feel, and that is simply that one must first heed the breeder's instructions. If they are not attractive then go elsewhere.
There have been many requests to see pictures of the underbite in question to help understand the severity of the problem, but none have been produced. The OP is not required to produce these pictures to the forum, but since much has been discussed as to what is or isn't likely to have happen to the puppy in question it would have been helpful to see them.
No offence to vets, but very often vets are not well versed on a particular breed, where reputable breeders eat, sleep and live their chosen breeds. Most vets, unless it's a breed they personally choose, do not go into the minutiae of every breed - they simply can't, there isn't enough time. Taking the puppy to the breeder's vet would have been the path I would have chosen.
And not keeping a copy of the contract is foolhardy. I keep copies of everything I sign. Add to that the fact that the puppy's bite was disclosed at time of purchase.
Frankly, I see in this only a very sad situation where we are getting only one side of the story and one person's name and reputation are being maligned.

I don't know the breeder, have no contact with the breeder, am not in the market for a puppy from the breeder, so these are my personal observations and opinions.

It is true that I had a dream of a breeder, but I would have gone elsewhere if she hadn't been.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> It really is about the money at this point. I have a hard time believing that Jo would sell a pet puppy with no written contract; but as of yet the OP cannot remember or find what the contract says about a guarantee, but the breeder has made it clear what here guarantee is: return the dog for a full refund. She has given you this offer and obviously it's not a fun one but it's a fair one.


I agree that it's fair in the sense that it's a clear and upfront situation. But I do not believe it's fair in the sense that it's anything more than an empty offer. As I said earlier, it's a more expensive guarantee to honor if you really believe people would ever do it. Refunding $750 would be much cheaper than refunding $1500, taking the dog back, and paying for surgery.

If the OP has stated all the facts correctly, the breeder is clearly under no legal obligation to pay for any of the dog's surgery. But why offer to take the dog back for a full refund if you're not willing to refund half? What's the rationale there?


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Ya know whats funny.... is I was just telling my husband about this and about how they bought the pup with a bad bite and at 4 mos of age they brought him to the vet .... and thats as far as I got because my husbands reaction was "OHHH NO" 
go figure huh

Tippy, honestly It is very possible that at this point she just wanted the puppy back and its not about the cost effectiveness at all....


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lilliam said:


> No offence to vets, but very often vets are not well versed on a particular breed, where reputable breeders eat, sleep and live their chosen breeds. Most vets, unless it's a breed they personally choose, do not go into the minutiae of every breed - they simply can't, there isn't enough time.


I don't really disagree about a breeder's knowledge base, but if you're a vet specialist, I think you're probably the most knowledgable person when it comes to whether or not a bite problem needs surgery or not. An experienced breeder knows a lot about correct bites and the standard, but they don't have the years of study, the experience in different health problems, and the understanding of their surgical solutions. There's just no way to make a plausible argument that a breeder would be a better medical resource than a veterinary specialist.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> If a vet and a vet specialist made a recommendation, I'd take it over the advice of the breeder any day. Again, I'm not commenting on the money thing right now, but if I understand what the OP is saying, I agree that there's no way I would take a breeder's recommendation over that of two DVMs, regardless of whether the breeder had seen the medical records.


See and thats interesting because I will almost always take the advice of a longtime reputable breeder over a vet. 

I have had breeders give me information that I have then taken to the vet who researches it and will try the suggestion and we are almost always successful. Thankfully I have vets who are willing to try my crazy suggestions even though they think I am nuts... but then they almost always work and they can add them to their arsenal of things to try with their other clients

as far as no plausible rational for us knowing more that is just not correct... we often have a network of other breeders, some of whom are vets who have seen these various issues. My own mentor has been involved in breeding goldens since the 1960's she has more experience with this breed than most anyone out there. We know how our lines develop, we know how dogs mature and grow and in our lines what develops more quickly and more slowly etc etc.... 

however the issue is not even about whether they should have done what they did or not, but rather about the money issue.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Shalva said:


> See and thats interesting because I will almost always take the advice of a longtime reputable breeder over a vet.
> 
> I have had breeders give me information that I have then taken to the vet who researches it and will try the suggestion and we are almost always successful. Thankfully I have vets who are willing to try my crazy suggestions even though they think I am nuts... but then they almost always work and they can add them to their arsenal of things to try with their other clients
> 
> ...


It comes down to what kind of experience you value for what kind of situation. When it comes to a surgical intervention, I trust a trained surgeon. And let's not forget that vets have an enormous, formalized network of experience to draw on. They frequently call colleagues to discuss cases, and good ones stay current by reading research. You're placing more trust on personal experience, and while I understand that, I don't believe it is more valuable when discussing surgical interventions. A surgeon who's worked on dozens or even hundreds of jaw problems and has access to other professionals who've seen hundreds more is a better resource than a network of breeders who've probably only seen a fraction of that and don't necessarily have the medical training to analyze each case as effectively. 

I think the situation you describe, in which a breeder's experience and a vet's expertise can be matched up, is the best of both worlds.

I don't think the forum can necessarily pass judgment on whether the breeder should refund the money in this particular situation, because we only have one side of the story. Contractually, the buyer has no recourse. Ethically, if I were a breeder whose dog needed surgery (according to multiple vets and a specialist) for a congenital condition, I would want to refund at least part of the purchase price.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I think the situation you describe, in which a breeder's experience and a vet's expertise can be matched up, is the best of both worlds.



I am very lucky to have the vets that I have and a network of educated breeders.... it's very telling when the vet asks me for advice regarding a litter or where to get their own personal dogs, or sends folks who want to breed to talk to me (so I can either help them or convince them not to do it) and I can call the vet who has respect for the knowledge that we hold as breeders... it does make the most sense... and we are very lucky to have found vets whom we are on a first name basis with and can have a good working relationship with.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> I don't really disagree about a breeder's knowledge base, but if you're a vet specialist, I think you're probably the most knowledgable person when it comes to whether or not a bite problem needs surgery or not. An experienced breeder knows a lot about correct bites and the standard, but they don't have the years of study, the experience in different health problems, and the understanding of their surgical solutions. There's just no way to make a plausible argument that a breeder would be a better medical resource than a veterinary specialist.


A breeder would know his own lines and how the head is formed and how it changes over time in his own line. Through generations he has seen his own line develop and would be able to say, based on past experiences and individuals within his lines, how the puppies are likely to develop. This is how he can evaluate what is a show puppy from what is a pet puppy, from taking close observations about a particular pup and extrapolating past individual growth patterns to see who would best fit the standard.

I am not saying that a breeder would be a better medical resource, I would not take a puppy to a breeder to diagnose or to prescribe medications for seizures, for example. But that he would better understand his line and how individuals within it are likely to grow and form.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

_5) Reasonable precautions have been taken to prevent this puppy from acquiring hereditary faults such as hip dysplasia and hereditary cataracts and heart murmurs. The sire and dam have hip, elbow, eye and heart clearances. Due to the unknown hereditary and environmental causes of such faults no guarantee for the puppy will be given against them. Clearances on both the sire and dam help reduce the risk of progeny developing problems in the future but there is no guarantee. Should this dog develop Hip Dysplasia (moderate or severe) and be confirmed by an OFA x-ray taken at the age of 26 months and surgery preformed to correct the genetic defect the breeder will apply the purchase price of the original puppy towards a replacement puppy when one is available. The owners are not required to return the original puppy. Please be aware that it is important how you raise your puppy. Hip dysplasia can be caused by injury, poor nutrition, obesity or abuse. We would encourage you to consider the wholesome and beneficial all natural diet along with adding the all natural probiotic and enzyme supplement (Total-Biotics and Total-Zymes) that we start the puppies on and maintain our adult dogs on. We are always available to provide you with accurate information and recommendations regarding your puppies nutritional needs._
The above is taken from the online contract of this breeder. Seems she won't give money back for any reason, only a replacement puppy,even with hip displasia and then only if you spend the money for surgery. So the buyer has no legal standing, but maybe should have read the contract more closely. This breeder really only gives the standard 48 hour return policy after you see you vet and the vet says something is wrong. One good thing, however, is she will pay for the autopacy if the dog dies.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Which means to me that this is a very unfortunate situation of a buyer deciding to buy a puppy after full disclosure that the bite was not perfect, and possibly without giving the contract a thorough read. I really don't see where the breeder should be maligned in this, neither the buyer blamed. Simply not fully understanding of the repercussions surrounding a level bite, not researching that before purchase, and perhaps not fully understanding the contract.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

In other words, let the buyer beware, which, of course, is true since contract law considers pets property. I myself don't think of Jaro as property. It also brings into question what was disclosed to the buyer. Some in this thread contend that a level bite is not a defect. If it was just something that could get better or could get worse, what was the seller/breeder obliged to tell the buyer? The OP has said he was not told that this could cause any problems. And, if we are to trust breeders over vets in such matters, how can we trust them without full disclosure?


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

While I'm not an expert on either law or dog bone structure, I do know that puppies tend to change in appearance over time. What starts out as a rounded face ends up having the elongated muzzle of a collie or a borzoi. I've said throughout that I'm referring to reputable breeders, and before going to a breeder I would study that breeder. Having studied, I would trust that breeder. 
I remember my first border collie Zeke going through a strange growth spurt where his back legs were longer than his front legs and I freaked. I literally bought him at a trial from the back of a truck. Literally. No contract. But the breeder's name was known, he was respected. I called him and after a long conversation he had me convinced it was nothing more than a growth spurt. Zeke eventually leveled out. Puppies change as they grow, this much I know and everyone can agree on. 
Max is not my property, he's a much adored member of the family. But I read the contract and I asked questions - a lot of them. I also kept a copy.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Ian'sgran said:


> It also brings into question what was disclosed to the buyer. Some in this thread contend that a level bite is not a defect. If it was just something that could get better or could get worse, what was the seller/breeder obliged to tell the buyer? The OP has said he was not told that this could cause any problems. And, if we are to trust breeders over vets in such matters, how can we trust them without full disclosure?


There is no way any vet or breeder could tell you at 8 weeks if a puppy's bite is going to get worse, better or stay the same. Much less that it was going to need serious medical intervention to be a functional pet.
Raise a few puppies and you quickly realize that bites come and go off throughout the puppy's growth phases so to predict anything about an 8 week old puppy is a guess at best.
I'm not sure what "full disclosure" would have been, other than the breeder telling the puppy buyer exactly what she did: the puppy has a level bite!
There is nothing the breeder could have done to prevent the bite getting progressively worse, or make the buyer be more aware of the level bite at time of purchase. Understanding that I can absolutely see why the breeder is not willing to parly with a demanding puppy owner and is standing by her contract. We also have no idea how this whole thing has been handled between the two parties so it may be a matter of clashing personalities; had it been handled differently there may have been a different outcome even with the same set of medical circumstances.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

I'm using Danes as an example here because it's where my opinion of vets vs. breeders came from:

Having Danes for over 30 years before my Goldens, you definitely go with your breeder before your vet on most, if not all, growth related issues. Sorry, that's just how it is with Giants and probably any other breed I would think. There are *very, very few* vets that are familiar with the way a Dane's legs/body look in their growth stages. I don't know how many newbies to the breed that have put their puppies through expensive procedures only to come on my Dane board and learn from *breeders* how they could have handled it in a much less invasive way. Ways that have been proven to work for many, many years.

I'm talking _reputable_ and _responsible_ breeders of all breeds, not the BYB clowns. They know their line, they know how they develop and they are, by far, your best resource for most issues. I would *always* go to my breeder first.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

This also brings us to two very important point.... 

DO YOUR HOMEWORK - don't get caught up in cute... all puppies are cute, it is what keeps them alive after they have peed on your floor for the 95th time and chewed up your best shoes and couch. A good breeder means nothing until you have a problem or a question. Do your homework. When you are told about a problem, research research research and find out what happens if.... I know of a breeder who only covers genetic conditions... well honestly how do you really prove that ANYTHING is genetic. 

and second 

READ THE DARNED CONTRACT - Get a copy of the contract BEFORE you put your name on the waiting list and leave a deposit...If the contract doesn't seem like a fair contract WALK AWAY, yes you might have to WAIT, but waiting is not a bad thing remember the old saying good things come to those who wait.... well if you have to wait then WAIT. There will be another equally adorable puppy from another breeder. 

oh yeah and THREE 

IF you don't agree with the contract find another breeder. Don't just sign the darned thing and then break the contract and expect the breeder to be happy. With my puppies goes my philosophy on how they should be raised. If you don't agree with my philosophy then find a breeder who you can agree with. Shoot just be honest and tell me that you don't agree and I will help you find a breeder who you might be more in line with.... 

RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH 
it will take care of a host of these types of problems


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

OK I get the "legal" part of a contract, but what is the moral/ethical part of the contract? As I have stated previously, I actually do not guarantee health issues as how can you? But not written in my contract, but morally etched in my soul, is the refund for when bad things happen when all of the "right " things were done. I have a lab breeder friend who has paid for ACL surgeries on 3 year old pups she produced.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Now I'm wondering, really wondering ....

Is it the right thing to do to listen to a breeder, whom you may not know very well, over the medical expertise of a licensed veterinarian? 

I'm having a hard time with that


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have a hard time with some breeder rhetoric, in general. Pn the other hand, ther are others out there that are helpful.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

But if a person doesn't have a close, personal relationship with the breeder, how would they know who is better to listen to? And why would a responsible breeder who places one of their pups with someone they don't know very well, expect that person to know to listen to them rather than their vet?

I don't get this at all.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Sally's Mom said:


> OK I get the "legal" part of a contract, but what is the moral/ethical part of the contract? As I have stated previously, I actually do not guarantee health issues as how can you? But not written in my contract, but morally etched in my soul, is the refund for when bad things happen when all of the "right " things were done. I have a lab breeder friend who has paid for ACL surgeries on 3 year old pups she produced.


I absolutely get what you are saying, you do have to live with yourself and above and beyond a contract is great.
But a contract is NOT a moral/ethical document.
As far as your friend paying for ACL tears --- wow, I've got a bridge in Arizona....!!!!! Sorry that is crazy. Great for the owners, but crazy for her to do. I would never, ever expect that of a breeder.
My gut feeling tells me that this breeder in question would be -- and probably has been -- very sympathetic and willing to work with puppy buyers if approached and treated with a "let's be a team" mentality. But waltz in with a chip on your shoulder, an air of entitlement and a stressed individual looking for a scape goat ------ not surprising that she put on the breaks.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I didn't mean that that there was a moral/ethical part of a contract, I meant it more figuratively... anyway, my friend paid for at least 2 ACL surgeries on pups she bred. Would I? the jury is out. But would I refer puppy people to her? Absolutely.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I DO get to know the people who buy puppies from me, quite well, because they wait quite a long time for one. I'm not producing large numbers of puppies, having to advertise them for sale after they are born. Additionally, I am completely upfront with potential buyers so there are no surprises. A person can either buy a puppy from me, or not. Conversely, I can either sell a puppy to someone, or not.

As a breeder, I am going to do what is best for the dog that I BRED, bottom line. How can I do anything less?


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> But if a person doesn't have a close, personal relationship with the breeder, how would they know who is better to listen to? And why would a responsible breeder who places one of their pups with someone they don't know very well, expect that person to know to listen to them rather than their vet?
> 
> I don't get this at all.


You don't have to have a _close _personal relationship with your breeder, (although that would be wonderful), what you _do_ have to have is respect. You are buying/bought a family member from them you _better _feel they are trustworthy and knowledgeable about the breed or why on earth would you get a puppy from them. 

That's why people should breeder search instead of puppy search. I still stand by going with what your breeder recommends over your vet for certain issues. If your breeder is, (here are these words again), _responsible _and _reputable_, they will know your puppy and it's lines better than your vet. I'm mainly talking about growth related problems/issues here, not everything. 

But...you'd better believe I would call my breeder first on _anything_, medical or otherwise, before calling the vet, going on a forum with strangers, or asking friends. That's just the way I feel it should be. It's always good to get different opinions as long as your breeder was told first. JMO...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> As a breeder, I am going to do what is best for the dog that I BRED, bottom line. How can I do anything less?


I would hope this is true for all good breeders, but I don't think that is the point in this debate, or situation, or whatever we call it. 
The puppy owner wanting $$ back from the breeder has no bearing on the welfare of the puppy.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

K9-Design said:


> I would hope this is true for all good breeders, but I don't think that is the point in this debate, or situation, or whatever we call it.
> The puppy owner wanting $$ back from the breeder has no bearing on the welfare of the puppy.


Well, thanks much for clarifying that... 
The discussion has been all over the map in this thread, and my post was relevant to much of it. 

My point is that contract or not, any given scenario will be looked at individually, with the welfare of the puppy at the forefront. And yes, - giving a rebate might in fact have bearing on the welfare of the puppy - it may well be used towards veterinary care. 

JMHO, as they say.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

What I'm having a hard time understanding is this...if the breeder hasn't had this defect happen before in one of her litters, as stated by the OP, how would she know that the dog would grow out of it? She can't possibly know...if she does, then she's produced multiple dogs with underbites and it seems that that in itself would be an issue.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Enzos_Mom said:


> What I'm having a hard time understanding is this...if the breeder hasn't had this defect happen before in one of her litters, as stated by the OP, how would she know that the dog would grow out of it? She can't possibly know...if she does, then she's produced multiple dogs with underbites and it seems that that in itself would be an issue.


I don't know that she *knows* but I can understand a few things. First, waiting for the puppy to get older. Second, relying on the advice, experience and wisdom of other breeders, mentors, and friends.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> Now I'm wondering, really wondering ....
> 
> Is it the right thing to do to listen to a breeder, whom you may not know very well, over the medical expertise of a licensed veterinarian?
> 
> I'm having a hard time with that


I think it depends. On the level of experience between each party and how much you trust either of them. I have had vets tell me a lot of crazy things, and what one vet may think is a problem another may not. And I think there is a lot to be said for a breeder who has YEARS and YEARS of experience with their particular breed and line and all of the genetics that comes with it.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

GoldenSail said:


> I don't know that she *knows* but I can understand a few things. First, waiting for the puppy to get older. Second, relying on the advice, experience and wisdom of other breeders, mentors, and friends.


But how would "other breeders, mentors, and friends" know more about what surgical procedures a puppy needs than a veterinary dental specialist?? I can see if it was one vet...but it was multiple vets (including specialists) who weren't consulting with each other.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Enzos_Mom said:


> But how would "other breeders, mentors, and friends" know more about what surgical procedures a puppy needs than a veterinary dental specialist?? I can see if it was one vet...but it was multiple vets (including specialists) who weren't consulting with each other.


Well, if you are a specialist and all that is brought to you are the problems (make sense right), is it not possible that you could have a skewed perception? If you never see the puppies who have terrible bites that fix themselves (because the owners wait and don't bring them in) and you always fix those bites because they look terrible, then you might not know that leaving it alone can solve the problem.

And honestly as I have gotten older and had more experience with doctors, vets, etc the less faith I put in them because of the title. Rather, I study each issue out myself and make my own conclusions. I gather information from all sources I trust and consider and weigh them.

And on another level, personally I have a really, really hard time believing that a 4 month old puppy could have such a terrible bite that it needed surgery. I just can't imagine it. I could only imagine this being necessary if the dog could not eat or was in pain. (I did not get that from the OP). And given how much dogs can change as they age, I can't imagine not waiting. JMO.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> And honestly as I have gotten older and had more experience with doctors, vets, etc the less faith I put in them because of the title. Rather, I study each issue out myself and make my own conclusions. I gather information from all sources I trust and consider and weigh them.
> 
> And on another level, personally I have a really, really hard time believing that a 4 month old puppy could have such a terrible bite that it needed surgery. I just can't imagine it. I could only imagine this being necessary if the dog could not eat or was in pain. (I did not get that from the OP). And given how much dogs can change as they age, I can't imagine not waiting. JMO.


I guess this just comes down to worldview. I cannot imagine thinking my own research would lead me to a more accurate conclusion than that of a board certified specialist. Certainly owners are the best judges of quality of life, since they're with the dog all day, but when it comes to evaluation and diagnosis of medical conditions, what do we pay the vets for? For knowledge, ability, and experience we do not possess. Otherwise we'd just treat our dogs at home ourselves. 

Assuming what the OP said is true, how can people seriously be overruling a vet specialist from their armchairs? If surgery was recommended by multiple vets, the bite problem must have impacted quality of life. The OP hasn't said a word that I remember that indicated it was a cosmetic issue.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I guess this just comes down to worldview. I cannot imagine thinking my own research would lead me to a more accurate conclusion than that of a board certified specialist. Certainly owners are the best judges of quality of life, since they're with the dog all day, but when it comes to evaluation and diagnosis of medical conditions, what do we pay the vets for? For knowledge, ability, and experience we do not possess. Otherwise we'd just treat our dogs at home ourselves.
> 
> Assuming what the OP said is true, how can people seriously be overruling a vet specialist from their armchairs? If surgery was recommended by multiple vets, the bite problem must have impacted quality of life. The OP hasn't said a word that I remember that indicated it was a cosmetic issue.


Because many of us have had not great experiences with vets and their advice. Like the pup with the entropian I mentioned previously whose vet insisted he needed surgery but it corrected on its own. Like vets who insist puppies can be spayed at 8-10 weeks. Like the badmouthing of raw diets and home cooked diets with little training in nutrition. Like trusting a broken machine even when their eyes are telling them that the machine is wrong. Like the above poster I don't put as much faith in vets. I know what I know and I know what I don't know. I would never try to set a broken leg and just the other night I ran a pup to the ER clinic but I also know what my breeder knows. 

When I started breeding years ago.... I called my vet, I had never whelped a litter and I had a great relationship with the vet and I asked if the next time he had a litter in to be whelped or a c-section if I could come and help and his response was well that he didn't really know how to whelp a normal litter because he only saw them when they were a problem. 

When my Connor was five months old he hurt himself or smething I can't remember so they did some xrays. The vet came back telling me that he was severely dysplastic and needed surgery immediately. In a panic I called my breeder who said don't worry, don't do anything that puppy soft bones and cartilege is hard to see in an xray and not to panic she asked if he was having symptoms etc..... So we waited... at age two he had his OFA's done, they came back good. He is now 11 and is not in any way shape or form dysplastic. My breeder didn't have to see Connor to know he wasn't dysplastic. Shall I go on about Connor, he has moderate IBD as a young pup he started having bloody stool... hamburg and rice for about 8 weeks. We tried every better kibble... as soon as he would have kibble back to bloody stool. Finally a breeder told me to try a probiotic and a raw burger. 48 hours later he was back to a normal puppy we never went back. I told my vet who gave me all kinds of grief about the raw diet and told me to try puppy chow and that thousands of dogs eat puppy chow and that should take care of it. 

Vets don't know everything, they don't know husbandry, they know medical crisis and routine care but husbandry is the area of the breeders who know. 

Nobody is saying don't use vets. But what we are saying is that there are things to go to vets for and there are things to go to your reputable breeder for. The problem is to many people blindly follow their vets advice and don't trust their ability to research and come to a conclusion that may be different from their vets. Honestly, when my pups go to their new homes, my biggest worry is that some vet is going to undo all the work I have done in bringing up that puppy and educating my puppy people.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Shalva said:


> Because many of us have had not great experiences with vets and their advice. Like the pup with the entropian I mentioned previously whose vet insisted he needed surgery but it corrected on its own. Like vets who insist puppies can be spayed at 8-10 weeks. Like the badmouthing of raw diets and home cooked diets with little training in nutrition. Like trusting a broken machine even when their eyes are telling them that the machine is wrong. Like the above poster I don't put as much faith in vets. I know what I know and I know what I don't know. I would never try to set a broken leg and just the other night I ran a pup to the ER clinic but I also know what my breeder knows.


I'm not talking about incompetent vets. If your vet is regularly incorrect, you have a crappy vet and you need a new one. But for every anecdote about a vet who was wrong, there are ten about bad breeders who espouse the greatest nonsense in the world (NuVet, cancer-free dogs, you name it). We can all produce anecdotes on either side. I'm talking about when an experienced, great breeder and an experienced, great vet disagree about a medical issue. I'm more inclined to trust the vet.

For the kinds of foods their dogs thrive on, I trust the breeder. For knowledge of common problems in their lines, I trust the breeder. For knowledge of how their dogs typically develop, I trust the breeder. For evaluation of a medical problem that's bad enough for me to go to the vet, I trust the vet. By definition, that kind of medical problem is not part of typical development.

For example, Jax has distichias. His breeder has seen it pop up a couple of times in the line, and she has found that if they're lasered off after 18 months, they don't tend to return. She suggested that I wait until at least 18 months to have them removed, as long as they weren't causing other problems. My vet referred me to an ophthalmologist. If that board-certified specialist had disagreed, I would have gone with his judgment, since my breeder's opinion is based on a small sample size, and she has no training to evaluate eye problems. She also hasn't seen the dog since he was less than five months old.

That doesn't mean I don't trust her or don't value her advice, but it does mean that if her advice had conflicted with that of a trusted vet after a hands-on evaluation of the dog, the vet's opinion carries more weight for me. I think that's a perfectly legitimate decision for any owner to make.




Shalva said:


> We tried every better kibble... as soon as he would have kibble back to bloody stool. Finally a breeder told me to try a probiotic and a raw burger. 48 hours later he was back to a normal puppy we never went back. I told my vet who gave me all kinds of grief about the raw diet and told me to try puppy chow and that thousands of dogs eat puppy chow and that should take care of it.


Again, anecdotally, vets are obviously wrong sometimes, though your story doesn't prove the vet was actually wrong, since you didn't engage in any kind of scientific process to prove that the kibble was the cause of the problem. I tend to trust my vet's anecdotes when she talks about the number of food-borne illnesses she treats in the ER each year for raw fed dogs or the number of obstructions she removes a year from dogs who eat raw bones. She's an ER surgeon, and I greatly valued her input when we talked about diet. Jax's breeder feeds raw, but again, I've gone with my vet and my own research over her recommendation.



Shalva said:


> Vets don't know everything, they don't know husbandry, they know medical crisis and routine care but husbandry is the area of the breeders who know.


And malformed jaws definitely fall in the area of a medical problem, not typical husbandry. There are lots of things that breeders have more experience in than vets, but when it comes to atypical development and problems that interfere with quality of life, I trust my vet's training and experience.



Shalva said:


> Nobody is saying don't use vets. But what we are saying is that there are things to go to vets for and there are things to go to your reputable breeder for. The problem is to many people blindly follow their vets advice and don't trust their ability to research and come to a conclusion that may be different from their vets. Honestly, when my pups go to their new homes, my biggest worry is that some vet is going to undo all the work I have done in bringing up that puppy and educating my puppy people.


I think owners are a lot more dangerous to puppies than vets, no matter how well you try to screen them.

And like I said, I think this comes down to worldview and how much you value formalized learning vs. anecdotal experience. I see where you're coming from, but I think an owner is well within the bounds of reason to go with a vet's advice when it conflicts with the breeder's.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have officially been a veterinarian for 25 years. I did not see my first normal whelping until I bred my first litter 9 years ago. As a veterinarian, I see dogs when the sock they ate didn't pass, but for every one of those I see, there are probably thousands of socks that do pass. I only have to see the poops in my yard to understand that chewed bits of tea towels DO pass. I guess my point is that our perspective can be skewed by what we see in practice and our experiences.

However, the OP was seen by numerous veterinarians.. not just one. I think it is a bit presumptious to assume they were all wrong. And not just in veterinary medicine, but in human medicine, it is important to do your homework and get several opinions. I think that the OP did this.

And I think PG wasn't off topic when she said she supported her pups after they left her. That was one of the OP's questions(what are breeder responsibilities?) I feel the same way PG does...

And off topic, but in regards to raw diet, there is an informative article in the latest JAVMA about the bacteria in raw diets, pig's ears, etc.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> And off topic, but in regards to raw diet, there is an informative article in the latest JAVMA about the bacteria in raw diets, pig's ears, etc.


Do you have the article title? I'd love to read it and I think I can get it for free if I know the title and/or authors.


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## glnbrgold (May 26, 2011)

I've been following this thread for the past several days, and while I don't know what the answer is for the original question and I do know what I would probably do, that won't help now. However this issue of breeders vs Vets is well worth exploring. I have literally spent my whole career in academic medicine (I'm and RN) and while I have a great deal of respect for the work my colleagues do I also have a solid understanding that people, MD's and the science of medicine itself is not infallible. The very best combination of skills are those of a Vet and breeder combined in collaboration. The breeder brings their years of experience to the table about their breed and their line... which will be very different from another breed and even a different line within the same breed. The Vet adds a broader view of medicine across many, many breeds, and even different animals. Most breeders who carefully track their puppies have stories about Vets that give bad advice, misdiagnose, recommend surgery that is not necessary etc. Can you blame us for being sceptical?? 

I will say that one thing that bothers me about this whole story is the use of a board certified specialist... if in fact the dentist was board certified. I would personally expect a specialist to give sound advice, but even so if this were my puppy I would have been on the phone having a long discussion with the specialist about what they found and why they were advising surgery and believe me, I can ask some hard questions. Then I would have most likely found a second specialist and paid for a second opinion out of my own pocket. Like most of the breeders on this forum I'm have a hard time visualising a puppy with a bite so bad that surgery was required before the age of 6 months. I'm also pretty disturbed at the trashing of a breeders reputation all over what appears to be a disagreement between one owner about one puppy.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

glnbrgold said:


> I will say that one thing that bothers me about this whole story is the use of a board certified specialist... if in fact the dentist was board certified. I would personally expect a specialist to give sound advice, but even so if this were my puppy I would have been on the phone having a long discussion with the specialist about what they found and why they were advising surgery and believe me, I can ask some hard questions. Then I would have most likely found a second specialist and paid for a second opinion out of my own pocket. Like most of the breeders on this forum I'm have a hard time visualising a puppy with a bite so bad that surgery was required before the age of 6 months. I'm also pretty disturbed at the trashing of a breeders reputation all over what appears to be a disagreement between one owner about one puppy.


Right - lots of our discussion is based on the incomplete info given in the thread. I'm assuming we're talking about board-certified specialists if we're talking about surgery. If we're talking about unqualified docs, then my comments don't apply.

And I'm surprised that folks have trouble visualizing a jaw that bad, since twice on the forum that I can remember, a dog under a year has had jaw surgery to correct a congenital bite problem that interfered with quality of life. Nobody in those threads told the owners that there was no way for a bite to be that bad.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I agree about the medical field (shoot all fields) of not being infallible. And unfortunately what I have seen of a lot of medicine is guess work and I don't like it--but there it is. When your dog is sick the vet does not often know what is wrong--they treat the symptoms and treat the most likely cause. If that doesn't work, try something else. But often, and as I was told once, you don't get the satisfaction of knowing if it is right. And I think there are certain trends that are believed to be right by the whole group because of what they are taught and generally practice (i.e. kibble over raw), but don't know that is is better. And having talked to specialists recently (one from OFA and a well known orthopedic specialists) and seeing a stark contrast in opinion I just do not trust a vet simply because they are a vet. Sorry. Certain things, sure, maybe. Like the example of setting a cast or spaying. Other things are really vet dependent and issue dependent. And I like to use my own brain in such matters. Sure, the vet is a useful tool in helping me decide, but never the only one that matters.

And a very real problem of this thread is that this story is incredibly one-sided. We don't know the full picture, we only know it as the OP paints it. And I think the breeder has absolutely every right to have a say in the medical care of one of the puppies she bred if expected to help with such expenses.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> And having talked to specialists recently (one from OFA and a well known orthopedic specialists) and seeing a stark contrast in opinion I just do not trust a vet simply because they are a vet. Sorry. Certain things, sure, maybe. Like the example of setting a cast or spaying. Other things are really vet dependent and issue dependent. And I like to use my own brain in such matters. Sure, the vet is a useful tool in helping me decide, but never the only one that matters.


Nobody suggested not using their own brain. The issue was the valuation of breeder's advice vs. that of a vet. Also, nobody argued that we should give full trust to a vet just because he's a vet. Just like nobody would argue that we should trust a breeder simply because he's put a male and a female dog together.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And this is more off topic... but as a veterinarian, I could state more breeder anecdote not based on fact to go with everyone's horrible vet care stories. Where do I start??


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> For example, Jax has distichias. His breeder has seen it pop up a couple of times in the line, and she has found that if they're lasered off after 18 months, they don't tend to return. She suggested that I wait until at least 18 months to have them removed, as long as they weren't causing other problems. My vet referred me to an ophthalmologist. If that board-certified specialist had disagreed, I would have gone with his judgment, since my breeder's opinion is based on a small sample size, and she has no training to evaluate eye problems. She also hasn't seen the dog since he was less than five months old.


Okay sidebar! LOL
So distichia is extremely common in goldens, I wouldn't think anything about a dog having them as I think it's normal for long haired dogs, the extra eyelashes shed out just like their other hair and rarely does it ever cause problems. Did you really have them removed?? I can't image this unless it was an extreme case or actually a case of ectopic eyelashes. I've never heard of a golden having it done, actually. Just curious.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The ophthalmologist I take my dogs to thinks that distichia in goldens is a non issue. They definitley come and go depending on the shed cycle.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Okay sidebar! LOL
> So distichia is extremely common in goldens, I wouldn't think anything about a dog having them as I think it's normal for long haired dogs, the extra eyelashes shed out just like their other hair and rarely does it ever cause problems. Did you really have them removed?? I can't image this unless it was an extreme case or actually a case of ectopic eyelashes. I've never heard of a golden having it done, actually. Just curious.


I haven't had them removed yet since they haven't caused problems. At least two of them are permanent, though, and don't disappear or reappear with the shedding cycle. We've considered having those lasered, since they seem to cause a little extra eye watering.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

After reading the recent posts from over the weekend, I just can't get past this question: what's the point of a contract if you're going to be berated for abiding by it? If it's not in the contract, then we all have our answer on what the breeder was required to do. The breeder could certainly opt to do more than is required by the contract, as it sounds like a few people on here would do, but shouldn't be criticized for choosing not to when she didn't agree with the course of treatment. And I don't think her actions or lack thereof (even as framed by the OP, since we clearly only have one side) warrant a warning thread on this forum.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

tippykayak, it is JAVMA, Vol 238, #11. The article is an"Update on Salmonella spp. contamination of pet food, treats, and nutritional products and safe feeding recommendations" written by Kate S. KuKanich DVM PhD DACVIM.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Okay sidebar! LOL
> So distichia is extremely common in goldens, I wouldn't think anything about a dog having them as I think it's normal for long haired dogs, the extra eyelashes shed out just like their other hair and rarely does it ever cause problems. Did you really have them removed?? I can't image this unless it was an extreme case or actually a case of ectopic eyelashes. I've never heard of a golden having it done, actually. Just curious.


I had an opthalmolist (board certified) tell me that distichia was a huge problem and that I couldn't breed my girl because of it even though it is a breeders choice on CERF


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## SunGold (Feb 27, 2007)

Shalva said:


> I had an opthalmolist (board certified) tell me that distichia was a huge problem and that I couldn't breed my girl because of it even though it is a breeders choice on CERF


Me too - I won't take my dogs to him anymore....


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think, all other things being equal, distichias are not to be desired and do not represent ideal eyes. They're pretty far down the list of health concerns, but I don't think they should be treated as part of normal eye structure. Nobody said exactly that, but I wanted to clarify.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> After reading the recent posts from over the weekend, I just can't get past this question: what's the point of a contract if you're going to be berated for abiding by it? If it's not in the contract, then we all have our answer on what the breeder was required to do. The breeder could certainly opt to do more than is required by the contract, as it sounds like a few people on here would do, but shouldn't be criticized for choosing not to when she didn't agree with the course of treatment. And I don't think her actions or lack thereof (even as framed by the OP, since we clearly only have one side) warrant a warning thread on this forum.


Clearly the breeder's contract does not oblige her to help with the medical expenses. The question, I believe, is that the breeder knew there was something "different" about his puppy's bite and sold it for full price. The OP said that it was not disclosed to him that this could cause a problem. Much of what is being discussed is about the ethical responsibility of the breeder and not the legal responsibility. It would be better if this issue were being discussed without the breeder's name being the title of the thread, because, as you say, we don't have her side of the story. However, I doubt very much she is unaware of this thread and yet has chosen not to give her side.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I think, all other things being equal, distichias are not to be desired and do not represent ideal eyes. They're pretty far down the list of health concerns, but I don't think they should be treated as part of normal eye structure. Nobody said exactly that, but I wanted to clarify.


Well YEAH! but bred to an unaffected dog it generally does not worsen is a minor issue if it shows up at all. There is a reason it is a breeders choice on CERF AND none of the puppies in the litter from that bitch have distichia . 

Thank goodness I did my own research and asked other long time reputable breeders before I spayed my girl and removed her from my breeding program.... If I had just listened blindly to the board certified vet she would have been spayed.


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## glnbrgold (May 26, 2011)

Ian'sgran stated " The question, I believe, is that the breeder knew there was something "different" about his puppy's bite and sold it for full price".

Actually as has been stated before, a level bite is not "different". It is part of the normal occlusion continum for the golden retriever and is accepted as such in the show ring. It is not as desirable as a scissor's bite, but it is not abnormal or different.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Ian'sgran said:


> Clearly the breeder's contract does not oblige her to help with the medical expenses. The question, I believe, is that the breeder knew there was something "different" about his puppy's bite and sold it for full price. The OP said that it was not disclosed to him that this could cause a problem. Much of what is being discussed is about the ethical responsibility of the breeder and not the legal responsibility. It would be better if this issue were being discussed without the breeder's name being the title of the thread, because, as you say, we don't have her side of the story. However, I doubt very much she is unaware of this thread and yet has chosen not to give her side.


It was disclosed....right? Isn't this an issue of a "level bite" that was disclosed but became worse? 

My point is that people in the thread have said that the breeder should pay for some/all of the medical expenses based on a moral obligation. But why have a contract at all if the contract means nothing in the event of any medical issue? Where does it end? It just makes me wonder how many puppy buyers actually read contracts before they sign them. 

Also, maybe to avoid dragging this breeder's name through the mud (any more than it already has been) perhaps a new thread should be started on this issue? I don't know the breeder in question or anything about them, but if we're only having a moral/ethical debate their name shouldn't be involved. JMHO.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Ian'sgran said:


> Clearly the breeder's contract does not oblige her to help with the medical expenses. The question, I believe, is that the breeder knew there was something "different" about his puppy's bite and sold it for full price. The OP said that it was not disclosed to him that this could cause a problem. Much of what is being discussed is about the ethical responsibility of the breeder and not the legal responsibility. It would be better if this issue were being discussed without the breeder's name being the title of the thread, because, as you say, we don't have her side of the story. However, I doubt very much she is unaware of this thread and yet has chosen not to give her side.


It doesn't matter, whether she should have charged the full amount or not doesn't matter, water under the bridge. The original poster agreed to pay full amount and agreed to have a contract that requires the return of the pup. They are now upset that they agreed to all of that and want some of their money back. 

it's really quite simple actually, they should have read their contract, they should have done their homework


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

glnbrgold said:


> Ian'sgran stated " The question, I believe, is that the breeder knew there was something "different" about his puppy's bite and sold it for full price".
> 
> Actually as has been stated before, a level bite is not "different". It is part of the normal occlusion continum for the golden retriever and is accepted as such in the show ring. It is not as desirable as a scissor's bite, but it is not abnormal or different.


Please read the following:Dog Malocclusions (Underbite or Overbite) and Unstable Jaw on MedicineNet


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Ian'sgran said:


> Please read the following:Dog Malocclusions (Underbite or Overbite) and Unstable Jaw on MedicineNet


Umm, yeah? We all know bite problems exist....that was a nice overview but I'm not sure what insight that gives to this situation.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Ian'sgran said:


> Please read the following:Dog Malocclusions (Underbite or Overbite) and Unstable Jaw on MedicineNet


yeah so? it doesn't change that the poster has buyers remorse... for paying to much and having an awful contract.... 

they should have thought of that before they bought the puppy


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Awful contract? Should responsible breeders have "awful" contracts?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Jo Ellen said:


> Awful contract? Should responsible breeders have "awful" contracts?


I actually looked at their website and their contract (assuming that's the same one the OP signed) doesn't look unreasonable or awful to me. IMO, it would have been better stated as " it doesn't change that the poster has buyers remorse... for paying to much and not reading the contract before signing...."

This is an unfortunate example of why you should ask to see the contract before you commit to a puppy and make sure you understand what is and isn't guaranteed.

(ETA: Sorry to be so focused on the contract. It's what I do for a living so I'm naturally going to focus on that issue.)


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## glnbrgold (May 26, 2011)

I guess I'm missing your point. We all know that undershot and overshot jaws are not part of the breed standard and can be problematic when extreme. However even the article you just sent states

" In the even or level bite, the incisors meet edge to edge. This is a *common occlusion,* but is not considered ideal because the edge-to-edge contact wears the teeth. The correct bite for any given breed is described in the standard for that breed."

The golden retriever breed standard disallows an overshot or undershot mouth, but only states a level bite is "undesirable" not a disqualification. Here is the exact wording... 

*Teeth* scissors bite, in which the outer side of the lower incisors touches the inner side of the upper incisors. Undershot or overshot bite is a _disqualification._ Misalignment of teeth (irregular placement of incisors) or a level bite (incisors meet each other edge to edge) is undesirable, but not to be confused with undershot or overshot. Full dentition. Obvious gaps are serious faults.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I actually looked at their website and their contract (assuming that's the same one the OP signed) doesn't look unreasonable or awful to me. IMO, it would have been better stated as " it doesn't change that the poster has buyers remorse... for paying to much and not reading the contract before signing...."
> 
> This is an unfortunate example of why you should ask to see the contract before you commit to a puppy and make sure you understand what is and isn't guaranteed.
> 
> (ETA: Sorry to be so focused on the contract. It's what I do for a living so I'm naturally going to focus on that issue.)


in their opinion it is an awful contract... but thank you for clarifying that... I have not read the contract


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## glnbrgold (May 26, 2011)

I guess I should also add that one of my first dogs had a level bite, though his breeder and I continue to disagree on that. 

Pedigree: Kyrie-Belvedere Ard Rowan

Riley's breeder believes that since his canine's were correctly placed that it did not matter that his incisors were level. Whatever. In my book what you see is what your judged on and what you get. In any case Riley was shown and got some nice placements but did not carry the coat that show dogs today need to win. However he was never thown out of the ring for a bad bite.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

glnbrgold said:


> I guess I should also add that one of my first dogs had a level bite, though his breeder and I continue to disagree on that.
> 
> Pedigree: Kyrie-Belvedere Ard Rowan


Very cool. My good friends Mike & Pat had his brother Woody:
Pedigree: U-AGI Belvedere Morning Wood Kyrie NA NAP NAJ OJP TDI


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

K9-Design said:


> Umm, yeah? We all know bite problems exist....that was a nice overview but I'm not sure what insight that gives to this situation.


 
There _are _members here who are not aware of bite problems in Goldens. 
I see nothing wrong in having offered the article, and frankly there have been many posts in the thread that don't necessarily offer insight to the situation. The article is as relevant, or more, than some posts.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> And like I said, I think this comes down to worldview and how much you value formalized learning vs. anecdotal experience. I see where you're coming from, but I think an owner is well within the bounds of reason to go with a vet's advice when it conflicts with the breeder's.



that is true.... but don't ask your breeder for money back when you disregard their advice.... that is what it all boils down to. 

this whole conversation is not even about what they should have or shouldn't have done... but it is about wanting money back from the breeder who told you not to do what you did. Especially when the contract doesn't guarantee the issue. I didn't see the bite, I know for a fact that I would have wanted to wait until the dog matured. I did go and read the contract which honestly doesn't guarantee much but I am seeing more breeders who are going the way of less and less of a guarantee. When the environment plays such a big part in a dogs health and well being, I am seeing more breeders who are not guaranteeing things. This contract seemed like one of those that didn't guarantee much and clearly states that it must be hereditary for the minimal guarantee that exists to come into play. It does not say congenital, it says hereditary. 

The owner can do what they want.... but it's not about that is it... ? its about money. They want to do what they want to do and they want the breeder to pay for it. 

and in the anecdotal situations I mentioned, just for the record, those situations all occurred under the care of different vets, some at the emergency clinic, some were at my old vet, some at my new vet, some were specialists.... not just one incompetent vet.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I started a new thread on these issues. I think we should take this discussion over there. http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=98163&referrerid=12002


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## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

I'd like to point out a few things.

I don't have buyers remorse. I love my pup, and I'm glad I am able to provide her with the medical care that is recommended for her.

I did as much research in choosing a breeder as I knew how to do. This breeder came with good recommendations, and I had a good impression after talking to her. I'm sure that if no problems came up like mine people would love working with her. 

She saw a board certified dentist. He is the only one within a couple hours of where we live, so a second opinion from another dentist is not an option.

I don't have as much problem with the way the breeder's contract is structured so much as how she handled the situation. She sold me a dog with an issue that she said wouldn't cause problems, and it is clearly causing the dog problems. There have been other issues with the dog medically, and I haven't asked nor expected any financial support for those. It is only because she said the bite wasn't an issue, and it was, that I thought giving some of the purchase price back was warranted. Legally, I have no recourse. However, if I was in her situation I would feel bad that I unintentionally misrepresented the extent the bite problems would cause.

I don't think vets are omniscient or infalliable any more than I think breeders are. I am conflicted as to what the pup needs. However, I would take the opinion of someone who has listened to the whole problem and examined her multiple times over the opinion of someone who listened for a couple minutes and made a snap judgment that nothing was warranted. I would LOVE to do nothing surgically, but if 3 professionals tell me that doing nothing could make her problems worse, how do I do nothing?

There are some here (mostly breeders and friends of the breeder it seems, but that could be just my selective bias after reading the posts) that see nothing wrong with how the breeder handled the situation. That is certainly their right, it is a free country and there is no legal requirement for the breeder to do anything based on the contract. Those people are welcome to get dogs from this breeder if they want to. I have different expectations, and I was very disappointed with how the breeder handled the situation. If others would be similarly disappointed, then they should take that into consideration when they choose their breeder.

I didn't mean for this to turn into a lengthy discussion, though I do think it's interesting to see the difference in opinion between consumers and breeders on how things went down/should have gone down. I did not slander the breeder. I just wanted to let people know about my experience so that if they did research into this breeder, they would see that most of the time everything goes wonderfully with her, but one time a problem came up and this is how she handled it.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

A question just occurred to me, and since this relates directly to the OP I'll post it here. OP, did you have your puppy examined by a vet within a day or two after you picked her up from the breeder? I'm curious if the vet's evaluation of the pup within a couple of days after you brought her home was that of a level bite or an under bite? And if that vet foresaw the issues you're now dealing with?

ETA: nevermind, I answered my own question.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Let me just clarify something.... 
as I am certainly one getting lumped into your comments.... 

I am not going to judge how the breeder did or did not handle the situation based on one sided comments from you. I don't know how I would have handled it or not. Do I personally think the breeder handled the situation well? well how am I to know that when we have heard NOTHING from the breeder.... 

What we do know is that you chose to pay for a puppy and sign a contract. That is all we have to go on, other than that you clearly state the breeder disagreed with your course of action. The fact is that we don't even really know what you were told regarding the bite, we only know what you are teliing us which brings us back to that pesky one side of the story thing. 

It is about the contract at this point and the fact that we are getting one side of the story. 

thats what it boils down to ..... do I think there is nothing wrong with how she handled the situation WHO KNOWS .... ??? How do I know??? we only are getting your side of the story. But you signed a contract and the breeder is following the contract you signed. You want her to go above and beyond the contract... but you ignored her advice.... and that was your choice to make.... but don't expect a breeder to go above and beyond the contract you signed when you ignore their advice. 

Would I have handled it differently?? who knows, I don't know how she handled it because we haven't heard her side of the story.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> A question just occurred to me, and since this relates directly to the OP I'll post it here. OP, did you have your puppy examined by a vet within a day or two after you picked her up from the breeder? I'm curious if the vet's evaluation of the pup within a couple of days after you brought her home was that of a level bite or an under bite? And if that vet foresaw the issues you're now dealing with?


I'd be interested as well. Only because very few vets know breed standards, and unless there is a problem that is grossly apparent, or an anamoly causing an acute problem, it would be rare that something like a level bite would be brought to an owner's attention as being a concern. Even a slight underbite might not be - I know, because I had one and a vet said nothing about it - I brought it to his attention.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> I'd be interested as well. Only because very few vets know breed standards, and unless there is a problem that is grossly apparent, or an anamoly causing an acute problem, it would be rare that something like a level bite would bre brought to an owner's attention as being a concern. Even a slight underbite might not be - I know, because I had one and a vet said nothing about it - I brought it to his attention.


Her initial post on this issue said she took the pup to the vet and they noted a "significant underbite" that needed to be watched as she grew. I deleted my question because of that (but put it back in now). But you bring up a good point. I also wondered if the breeder was immediately notified of the issue after that first vet visit. And if not, I would wonder why not? If a vet told me my new puppy had a significant anything I'd be calling the breeder from the parking lot of the vet's office.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

> but if 3 professionals tell me that doing nothing could make her problems worse, how do I do nothing?


Exactly. That's it in a nutshell for me, really. What are breeders expecting of owners? Once you let that puppy go, you don't own it anymore to make these types of decisions. Do you? Totally apart from the medical issue, it's this closed circuit "honor code" that truly baffles me. I understand that breeders respect one another, but asking owners to trust a breeder over the advice of 3 professionals ... good lord, what's an owner to do in that situation. That's some crazy-making stuff.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> Exactly. That's it in a nutshell for me, really. What are breeders expecting of owners? Once you let that puppy go, you don't own it anymore to make these types of decisions. Do you? Totally apart from the medical issue, it's this closed circuit "honor code" that truly baffles me. I understand that breeders respect one another, but asking owners to trust a breeder over the advice of 3 professionals ... good lord, what's an owner to do in that situation. That's some crazy-making stuff.


the thing is that it all doesn't matter

the contract is on the breeders web site... go and read the contract... it clearly states hereditary issues. 

the fact is that the person who bought the puppy signed the contract. 

do I agree or disagree it really doesn't matter... 
she signed the contract that covers only hereditary issues.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Actually, I'm not really commenting on the contract, or the bite, or the he said/she said thing. What I'm commenting on are the comments I've read in this thread from breeders. "Don't listen to the vet, listen to your breeder." I can see that with certain things, like behavior or maybe even diet ... I don't see the reasonableness or fairness of that kind of pressure in a case like this.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Shalva said:


> that is true.... but don't ask your breeder for money back when you disregard their advice.... that is what it all boils down to.


I guess so. I've hesitated to say what the breeder should have done or didn't have to do because I'm sympathetic to the OP but don't have the breeder's side of the story. I think a breeder is well within the bounds of good ethical conduct to ask for the medical records for independent evaluation before agreeing to refund money for part of the surgery. I'm not sure, though, that the breeder gets to demand that everything is done his way or he has no ethical financial responsibility.

If the breeder really did, without seeing any records or the dog, overrule two vets, one of which was a specialist, I don't understand that. That's why I don't feel like I know enough to really come down on one side or another.



Shalva said:


> I didn't see the bite, I know for a fact that I would have wanted to wait until the dog matured.


How can you possibly say that? We don't know if it impacted the dog's ability to eat or if it was causing the dog any pain. The OP wasn't clear on that point, so to make a blanket statement like that doesn't make any sense to me. There's simply too much speculation in this situation for me to make any firm statements about what the OP definitely should have done or the breeder definitely should have done. There are definitely bite problems that need surgical intervention, even when the dog's young. The surgery we're talking about here was initially to pull some teeth, I believe. I can see that it might be absolutely necessary for a dog's health and safety. In that situation, you couldn't wait until the dog matured.



Shalva said:


> and in the anecdotal situations I mentioned, just for the record, those situations all occurred under the care of different vets, some at the emergency clinic, some were at my old vet, some at my new vet, some were specialists.... not just one incompetent vet.


I understand your point. I have had two vets I trusted completely, so that's one of the reasons I think the DVM really means something. If you've had a different experience, I get how that leads you to a different point of view on the situation. I can certainly respect that.


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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

I feel really sorry for the OP. My fiancee and I recently started the long journey of finding a breeder etc. Luckily I think we found a good breeder. I read through all these post and here is my 2 cents, which means nothing really..


I told my fiancee about the situation and asked her what she thought the breeder should have done and she said this, keep in mind she doesn't research stuff as much as I do, she just knows she wants a cute little golden.. 

She said, what did the contract say? 

I said he could have returned the puppy for another puppy from a future breeding etc, but she wouldn't be responsible to reimburse any cost with this puppy end of story; it doesn't matter about the bite, whether it was level, as crooked as a question mark(gotta love Forest Gump) whatever...

She said...well I guess you return the puppy for another.

Does it stink to return a puppy? I think so, but it seems like this is what most breeders do. You should know and understand this before you buy, you need to understand that a breeder can't just shell out money all willy nilly. If there is a problem with the dog that was not due to the environment, but was hereditary etc then your only course is to give the dog back and get another from a future breeding etc. Hopefully this doesn't happen often as that would raise some red flags imo. With this breeder in question, it seems like this is a fluke? 

The problem with this thread is there's like 3 debates going on at once. For one thing, I personally think the breeder in question has gotten a bad rap.

The whole breeder vs vet debate to me is hilarious. Asking for money back aside, the fact that the op got 3 diff vet and 1 was a specialist opinion and they all said the same thing, and people still insist on listening to the breeder?...lol Maybe I am understanding it wrong, but that's what I'm getting. I mean maybe this analogy if far fetched but it's what came to mind when I was reading some of the post.

Take the mom from the dugger show on tlc, shes got what like 15 kids or something? I would liken her to the breeder, she's got 15 healthy kids, she obviously knows a thing or two about giving birth. One of her kids gets sick and goes to the doctor and doc says he needs surgery, he goes to another doc and he says the same thing, he wants a 3rd opinion so he goes to a specialist and he says the same thing, yep you need this surgery. Mom dissagrees, I've raised 15 kids, I think I know a thing or two, and you don't need that surgery, he'll grow out of it. If she doesn't go with the surgery she gets child protection called....

That's probably a horrible analogy, but take it for what it's worth.

(Flame Suit on)


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## abigailqueenoflasvegas (May 8, 2011)

I am in Las Vegas, does anyone know of a good breeder here?


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I have a question - if the underbite was so severe that it would cause problems, why would the OP buy the puppy to begin with? 

One of two things had to have happened -

Either the bite was so severe that it impacted the puppy's health, in which case why buy the puppy to begin with, seeing that it had such severe deformities
If I buy a puppy with such severe deformities after the 48 hour check up then I'm assuming responsibility. And I would imagine that a vet would note such a severe bite problem at the check up, so if I am warned of it and I keep the puppy it's still my responsibility.

Or

The bite was not that severe at all, was not impacting the puppy's ability to eat, and therefore would have benefited from a less invasive wait-and-see approach, in which case I would have bought the puppy. Simply because puppies' bone structure changes so dramatically. If not, then all goldens would be gangly, long legged giraffe-looking guys, since they all seem to go through a bizarre awkward stage at about five months or so.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

_I have a question - if the underbite was so severe that it would cause problems, why would the OP buy the puppy to begin with? _
He bought the puppy because the breeder told him the dog had a level bite, and did not disclose to him what that could mean. As the pup grew it got worse. Buyer's bad for not doing his homework, breeder's bad for not making full disclosure.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Lilliam said:


> I have a question - if the underbite was so severe that it would cause problems, why would the OP buy the puppy to begin with?
> 
> One of two things had to have happened -
> 
> ...


 
Actually, a bite can change dramatically in 2 months, which as far as I can tell is how long the OP had the puppy before it was determined to now be a severe underbite. So it is entirely possible that the puppy was purchased with a bite that the breeder felt was not an issue, and it then changed - _after _the 48 hour check up.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Let's also not forget that bite problems can make themselves worse. The teeth can push against each other and cause damage through wear or damage through pushing each other out of position. So a bite could look OK but not ideal and then quickly shift to a truly problematic arrangement.

Theoretically, of course. I feel the need to continue to disclaim that we don't have much specific information about the course of this particular dog's problems.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Of course, and that's the problem here. We are hearing one set of events. Like the saying goes - there are three sides to every argument; each opposing viewpoint and the actual facts.
All I know is I follow my breeder's instructions exactly as written on the contract. I even sought her approval to change Max to Innova LBP. Not only because she knows her lines best and if I stray from her instructions I *know* she will know, but because I don't want to void the contract.

Question - since jaw structure can change to worsen a bite problem, wouldn't it be possible that it could right itself? It seems that there is opinion that it would.

Also, if the bite worsens in a couple of months, how can the breeder be held accountable beyond disclosing that it exists to begin with, and there are no remedies in the contract?

I jumped to the end of this thread this morning on the train....were pictures ever produced? Obviously, there is no requirement to post pictures on a forum, I just feel it would shed some light in this.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lilliam said:


> Question - since jaw structure can change to worsen a bite problem, wouldn't it be possible that it could right itself? It seems that there is opinion that it would.


Anything is possible, but my understanding with bite issues is that sometimes you cannot just wait and see. Teeth can do irreparable harm to each other if left alone, and if they're pushing each other out of position, it's probably pretty clear in some situations that they're only going to make each other worse not better, and that early intervention might allow you to have a less significant intervention.

I think it's safe to say that in some cases, early intervention is necessary and the wait and see approach is not practical or fair to the dog. Again, no idea whether this is one of those situations.



Lilliam said:


> Also, if the bite worsens in a couple of months, how can the breeder be held accountable beyond disclosing that it exists to begin with, and there are no remedies in the contract?


I guess that's what's up for debate. The breeder is certainly not legally accountable. The question is whether, ethically, the breeder might feel responsible for selling a dog with a non-ideal bite that got significantly worse over time.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

OK - question....and where is the buyer's responsibility for accepting a puppy after disclosure?
Not arguing, just talking.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lilliam said:


> OK - question....and where is the buyer's responsibility for accepting a puppy after disclosure?
> Not arguing, just talking.


That's where the he-said, she-said part of it comes in. If a breeder gave assurances that the bite wasn't a problem, and then it turned out to be a major, expensive problem, wouldn't the memory of those assurances make you feel misled? Wouldn't you want the breeder to hold himself accountable to those promises?

(Again, not saying that the breeder in this particular situation promised anything).


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I suppose we should require complete medical records, radiographs, an copies of the contract before even discussing any of this.


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## daisysmam (Sep 5, 2010)

Ultimately, it comes down to this.....does the breeder have a responsibility to reimburse the OP? Contractually, absolutely not. Ethically......now that's a whole different story. Everyone has their own moral compass and their actions are based on that. One breeder may refund money because they believe it's the right thing to do. Another breeder may not because they don't feel it's their responsibilty. Should the OP have listened to her breeder instead of the 3 vets? Who knows. That debate can go on forever because none of us are looking at the medical records and frankly, most of us aren't qualified to make an informed decison anyway. (I know I'm not.) I know what I would do (listen to the vets), but that's me. Someone else may choose the opposite. I guess when choosing a breeder, not only do we have to look for clearances etc., but maybe we need to find one who's "moral compass" matches ours.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Ian'sgran said:


> _I have a question - if the underbite was so severe that it would cause problems, why would the OP buy the puppy to begin with? _
> He bought the puppy because the breeder told him the dog had a level bite, and did not disclose to him what that could mean. As the pup grew it got worse. Buyer's bad for not doing his homework, breeder's bad for not making full disclosure.



***Full disclosure of WHAT?????***

LEVEL BITES ARE NOT UNUSUAL OR HARMFUL.

There is NO WAY the breeder could have known, hedged, guessed, anticipated, predicted or assumed that it would have gotten worse.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> That's where the he-said, she-said part of it comes in. If a breeder gave assurances that the bite wasn't a problem, and then it turned out to be a major, expensive problem, wouldn't the memory of those assurances make you feel misled? Wouldn't you want the breeder to hold himself accountable to those promises?
> 
> (Again, not saying that the breeder in this particular situation promised anything).



And what if a breeder made a comment similar to this

"We decided not to hold on to this pup because it has a level bite and a scissors bite is preferred in the breed ring. A level bite will not interfere at all with the pup's quality of life."

Is that in any form a promise of anything? 
Would a breeder then be thought responsible if a pup's bite went "bad" later and was a major, expensive problem?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> And what if a breeder made a comment similar to this
> 
> "We decided not to hold on to this pup because it has a level bite and a scissors bite is preferred in the breed ring. A level bite will not interfere at all with the pup's quality of life."
> 
> ...


Exactly! That's why I feel I can't pick sides here, and that's why what was said might have felt very different to the buyer than to the breeder. Well said.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

And at THAT point is where responsibility hinges. If I hear that, and I ask independent sources (such as this forum) and search the web, and then decide to purchase, then I've assumed all responsibility.
That particular information would have sent me searching BEFORE signing.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> I suppose we should require complete medical records, radiographs, an copies of the contract before even discussing any of this.


Of course that is neither feasible nor required. It would have helped in the discussion to have had a piece of actual data.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

So I'm wondering what this thread has accomplished? Did anyone actually come away from it with anything ?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> So I'm wondering what this thread has accomplished? Did anyone actually come away from it with anything ?


I think unfortunately the breeder may have come away from it with a negative mark on their reputation, even though the whole story still isn't known, but otherwise - nope.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> So I'm wondering what this thread has accomplished? Did anyone actually come away from it with anything ?


Reaffirmation of what I always sensed - that I will never become a breeder, no matter how much I would love a Max puppy.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> So I'm wondering what this thread has accomplished? Did anyone actually come away from it with anything ?


The tone of some of the replies to my posts made me think less of the civility of a few who post on this form. People can have different opinions without belittling those who differ. Some of that may just be the Impersonal nature of this mode of communication and not intentional. Generally I have found those who post on this forum to be helpful and polite.


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

So, I haven't read some of the posts, but I was wondering if the OP has a picture of the pup with the jaw problem. It would be interesting to see.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Wow-this has been quite the topic. I am afraid the only one that I agree with is this:

I suppose we should require complete medical records, radiographs, an copies of the contract before even discussing any of this


No one had seen photos of the puppy's jaw and teeth before or after and none of us have seen any of the medical records. 

I have never personally seen a puppy with such a bad bite that puppy teeth needed to be pulled so the adult teeth could come in. I think that is the problem that most "breeders" have with this topic. It is very hard to even imagine this to be possible. I have seen puppies mouths that were a mess!!! Adult teeth, puppy teeth, teeth here and there and everywhere. I honestly don't even like to look in a puppies mouth between 4-5 months old because of all the strange things going on.

As far as the vet/specialists thing goes......years ago, one of our first golden's had retained his 2 top canine baby teeth. The adult canine teeth were coming in and were actually longer than the puppy teeth and those teeth were showing no signs of coming out. So, off to the doggie dentist we went. He said we needed to pull them because it would ruin his bite and cause him future problems. Any of this sounding familiar??? Anyway, being the dutiful pet owner, we scheduled the surgery and were set to have the teeth pulled. I was sick about all of this because this was to be an obedience dog and I foresaw all kinds of problems with dumbells and scent articles. So, the day of the surgery comes and I am sitting in the dentist's office waiting for our appointment. I decided to take one last look to see what was going on in there and he had a piece of grass stuck in between the teeth. I grabbed the peice of grass and in doing so applied a little pressure and the tooth fell out. Imagine my surprise. Needless to say, we didn't have surgery done that day and I am very thankful we didn't. With a little wiggling, just like I told my kids to do to get their baby teeth out, the other tooth was out in 2 days.

I don't think any of this has anything to do with knowing this breeder. I do not know her and have never had any knowledge of her. I understand why the owner had the surgery done. The professionals were telling her that this needed to be done. However, with my own experience and seeing so many puppies mouths, it is hard to grasp the fact that a puppy could have a bite so bad that it wasn't functional. I was also told the same things that this owner is being told about future problems. 

It goes to getting the puppy-if there are problems, if there is a contract you don't like, dont get the puppy. period.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I actually have seen a puppy with a bite bad enough to need teeth removed. Two, in fact. One was a Collie ( a very poorly bred puppy) with a severe _over_bite - parrot mouth, actually.
The other was a Golden (again, poorly bred) with an awful underbite. Teeth that were puncturing the palate had to come out.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

hvgoldens4 said:


> Wow-this has been quite the topic. I am afraid the only one that I agree with is this:
> 
> I suppose we should require complete medical records, radiographs, an copies of the contract before even discussing any of this
> 
> ...


There are instances where the roots of baby teeth ( both in humans and in dogs ) never get absorbed. If that happens, those teeth MUST be pulled and the sooner they are pulled the better. These teeth will never fall out themselves and do sometimes get fused with the adult teeth.

Personally, I think there were two issues here that were unrelated: a level bite and retained teeth. I think the retained teeth were enough to push the level bite into an underbite.

The more I think about this, I no longer think the breeder was responsible and I also think the owner did the correct thing by listening to the professionals, especially when time is of the essence. If we were having this conversation 6 months from now, many people would be saying "why didn't you listen to the professionals".

My cousin did have a dog that had such a bad underbite, that it was very hard for him to eat and drink. She did eventually have to put him down at a very early age because of it.


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## eeneymeanymineymo (Oct 5, 2009)

This is interesting and complete with photos:

Gundogdoc - Case of the Month Dental Story

To the OP: a 4 month old puppies mouth is going through many changes with teething and looking at a pups mouth AFTER 6 months of age would of been my suggestion to you. Adult teeth are not in at 4 months of age.


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## GabrielMN (Oct 8, 2011)

*Ruby*

I am looking for an update on Ruby. She should be close to 1 year old. How is she doing?


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## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

*Update on Ruby*

Ruby is now a little over 14 months old. She has a pretty severe bite malalignment, and has had to have several teeth removed.

She also has hip dysplasia. When I emailed the breeder a few weeks ago to let her know, she had no response. I didn't ask for anything from her (like a refund or anything), just wanted to let her know so she didn't breed those two again.

She did not respond. I did get a response from her when there WASN'T a problem, so I think she pretty much is a "when the going gets tough" kind of person.

She is a very friendly lady and I think she probably means well, but I would HIGHLY recommend against getting a dog from her. She does not handle it well when things don't go well.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear Ruby is still having trouble, I hope there will be a time when the bite issue is resolved and she has no more problem with it, if that's possible. I hope the HD is not severe and she can live a normal and fulfilled life.

This entire discussion was an interesting read, but the one thing that really stuck out to me and is the black mark for this breeder in my opinion, is the fact that she never responded after seeing the vet records and pictures of the dog's bite, and that she never responded after being told the dog also has hip displaysia. Without even asking her do anything or refund any money, the fact that she refused to communicate or show any concern would steer me completely away from this breeder if I were considering buying a puppy.

Breeders on this board may disagree with the owner asking for a half refund, may disagree with the course of action she took for treatment, may disagree with any suggestion the breeder was lacking, but I doubt that any of you would simply disregard the messages from an owner of one of your puppies who told you the dog you bred has health issues.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Looks like a good breeder. They are after all an AKC breeder of merit. Make sure she shows you copies of the clearances including heart, hips, elbows, eyes. The dog on the front page looks lovely.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

MercyMom said:


> Looks like a good breeder. They are after all an AKC breeder of merit. Make sure she shows you copies of the clearances including heart, hips, elbows, eyes. The dog on the front page looks lovely.


Oops! I just noticed the date as 2/25/2011, not 2/25/2012.


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## damita (Jun 4, 2009)

chwtom said:


> Ruby is now a little over 14 months old. She has a pretty severe bite malalignment, and has had to have several teeth removed.
> 
> She also has hip dysplasia. When I emailed the breeder a few weeks ago to let her know, she had no response. I didn't ask for anything from her (like a refund or anything), just wanted to let her know so she didn't breed those two again.
> 
> ...


Wondering how the HD was diagnosed? Did you send the rads to OFA or was this just what the vet said when looking at them?


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## ScottyUSN (Jul 18, 2011)

As an Okie who is reseaching breeders in my general area, I found this thread.

This thread is rather one sided, but does bring pause to a potential buyer.


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

ScottyUSN said:


> As an Okie who is reseaching breeders in my general area, I found this thread.
> 
> This thread is rather one sided, but does bring pause to a potential buyer.


I have had nothing but great luck from this breeder. My dog is a wonderful boy that works great, but is also great with kids, and a family pet. He is now 5 years old, and I am still in contact with the breeder.

If you would like to discuss it, please pm me


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## ScottyUSN (Jul 18, 2011)

Stretchdrive said:


> I have had nothing but great luck from this breeder. My dog is a wonderful boy that works great, but is also great with kids, and a family pet. He is now 5 years old, and I am still in contact with the breeder.
> 
> If you would like to discuss it, please pm me


.... Will Do!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

One question I have after reading a thread like this is if there are "hollywood dentists" in the dog world as there are with people dentists? 

You know the difference between a dentist who is going to fix the problems that the patient wants fixed or are directly related to a visit vs those dentists who start writing up a list of things that would give their patient a perfect smile even if the patient didn't ask for one?


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