# Inbreeding or Linebreeding?



## aem82

I found the K9Data site thanks to this page when I got my Jax. I have been looking through it and just clicking on different dogs links. I am finding that A LOT of the dogs that I am finding have a lot of the same dog's in their history. Some about 3-5 generations back but some of them much closer. Here is the that I found for one where it looks like his mom and dad had the same dad. Is that even allowed??? lol I was shocked to see this! 

Pedigree: Holtens Rocky Rock Fish


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## CarolinaCasey

Eng CH Paudell Easter Plantagenet at Kerrien contributes 14% genetic influence on the dog in question.


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## paula bedard

Not a breeder, but it looks like inbreeding if both parents had the same father. ? I'm curious what the a breeder tells you.


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## Loisiana

What would Grandfather to grandaughter be considered?


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## aem82

I should clarify that this dog is not related to my Jax* I have just been looking at other puppies as we are thinking of getting another in a few months. The dog that I referenced above is linked to one of the litters that I saw advertised Thanks for your input!


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## paula bedard

Loisiana said:


> What would Grandfather to grandaughter be considered?


Well, I know what they call it for us two footers. 

I hope a breeder comments 'cause I'm curious.


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## Braccarius

There isn't a single championship on any of the dogs in that boys line. Linebreeding is measured on the COI... but if these people can't get a championship on any dog there's definitely not a trait or look they are trying to isolate.


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## AmberSunrise

Loisiana said:


> What would Grandfather to grandaughter be considered?


Line-breeding.


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## HiTideGoldens

Braccarius said:


> There isn't a single championship on any of the dogs in that boys line. Linebreeding is measured on the COI... but if these people can't get a championship on any dog there's definitely not a trait or look they are trying to isolate.


That's not true, the dog in question (Pedigree: Eng CH Paudell Easter Plantagenet at Kerrien) is an English CH and there are a number of titled dogs in his pedigree.


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## sterregold

Generally in animal husbandry it is called inbreeding when it involves first degree relatives--siblings, half-siblings, parent-offspring. Breeding to a cousin, or grandparent etc would be considered linebreeding. The closer that relative is in the pedigree and the more times common dogs appear the closer that linebreeding becomes. If you linebreed on a linebred dog the pedigree can become very tight in a hurry. I find COI's and especially the degree of influence of particular dogs in the pedigree to be more informative than worrying about anthropomorphized familial relationships.


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## annef

There have been mnay half brother half sister matings done in the UK usually with unrelated lines on the other side which this is. Having said that, it is closer than I personally like to do. If this is far back in the pedigree it wouldn't worry me knowing many of the UK/European lines well. Annef


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## iansgran

I would worry more about lack of clearances.


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## Braccarius

goldenjackpuppy said:


> That's not true, the dog in question (Pedigree: Eng CH Paudell Easter Plantagenet at Kerrien) is an English CH and there are a number of titled dogs in his pedigree.


Weird I ended up at a totally different dog then the one the threadposter put in. The one I saw originally had no champions in its line.


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## Pointgold

sterregold said:


> Generally in animal husbandry it is called inbreeding when it involves first degree relatives--siblings, half-siblings, parent-offspring. Breeding to a cousin, or grandparent etc would be considered linebreeding. The closer that relative is in the pedigree and the more times common dogs appear the closer that linebreeding becomes. If you linebreed on a linebred dog the pedigree can become very tight in a hurry. I find COI's and especially the degree of influence of particular dogs in the pedigree to be more informative than worrying about anthropomorphized familial relationships.


 
Exactly. Carefully done linebreedings can strengthen certain traits, including health issues. Breeders will often do linebreedings to a point, and then do an outcross breeding (usually to another linebreed dog with similar phenotype.)
There is quite a bit more to breeding than simply allowing two intact animals to "hook up".


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## aem82

Thank you for the information everyone! I appreciate all of your input.


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## flykelley

Hi Guys
Since Im looking for a new puppy also what is a good % for the COI to be at on the high end. Im looking at a breeder that both dogs have a COI around 2%.

Mike


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## AmbikaGR

flykelley said:


> Hi Guys
> Since Im looking for a new puppy also what is a good % for the COI to be at on the high end. Im looking at a breeder that both dogs have a COI around 2%.
> 
> Mike



Actually no way to accurately answer this. If the two dogs had no close relatives then the get would have a low COI also. However you could have two dogs with that low a COI who share one parent and the get's COI would be extremely high. That is why most look at the COI of the litter rather than the individual parents. It really is much more than just a number.


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## Ljilly28

Pedigree: Am CH Libra's Star Spangled Banner CD JH WC

This dog lived a long time despite its tight breeding


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## Jingers mom

Is it good if the COI is 0% on both mother and father of a puppy?


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## Aislinn

goldenjackpuppy said:


> That's not true, the dog in question (Pedigree: Eng CH Paudell Easter Plantagenet at Kerrien) is an English CH and there are a number of titled dogs in his pedigree.


It's not uncommon to not find alot of champions in an English Champion pedigree. Getting a championship in England is much harder than getting an American championship.


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## Tahnee GR

Jingers mom said:


> Is it good if the COI is 0% on both mother and father of a puppy?


You would want to see the COI on the litter, and also the health and genetics behind both parents. A litter with low COI from parents with a history of hip dysplasia behind them is not a good thing.

A COI in and of itself is almost meaningless without background information on the pedigree.


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## hvgoldens4

Jingers mom said:


> Is it good if the COI is 0% on both mother and father of a puppy?


 
Is this a theoretical question or did you actually find a dog who has a COI listed as 0??

That really shouldn't be possible because at some point in time, all goldens are related and so if you go back far enough, there will be common ancestors.

A COI in and of itself, doesn't give you much information. You still need the health histories behind the dogs in question to really know what the COI means.


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## Sally's Mom

I have seen dogs with COI's of 0 in k9data... remember they sometimes only follow to the 6th or 8 th generation, so 0 is very possible. When you are talking about COI's you need to also look at how far they are carried out.


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## Jingers mom

I looked up the parents of my soon to be puppy and they were both "COI 0" What exactly is the COI? In looking through both dogs pedigree on K9 Data I see some like names in both female and male ancestry. Does k9Data figure the COI based on pedigree or is this something the breeder adds?


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## AmbikaGR

Jingers mom said:


> What exactly is the COI?


Playing COI: Using inbreeding Coefficients



Jingers mom said:


> Does k9Data figure the COI based on pedigree or is this something the breeder adds?


It is calculated using the input pedigrees. Since it is an open database and anyone can enter info at times there are problems due to wrong information being entered.


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## Jingers mom

Jingers mom said:


> I looked up the parents of my soon to be puppy and they were both "COI 0" What exactly is the COI? In looking through both dogs pedigree on K9 Data I see some like names in both female and male ancestry. Does k9Data figure the COI based on pedigree or is this something the breeder adds?


 
The COI's are a five generation COI.


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## AmbikaGR

Jingers mom said:


> The COI's are a five generation COI.



Unless it has recently changed the COIs in K9Data were 10 and 12 generation derived.

There is a 5 generation pedigree option, as opposed to the "standard" 3 generation pedigree.


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## Swampcollie

AmbikaGR said:


> Unless it has recently changed the COIs in K9Data were 10 and 12 generation derived.


That's assuming that there are enough dogs included in the database to run the COI If there are a lot of unknowns it may not go back very far or be very accurate. The program and calculation can only be as good or thorough as the information put into it.


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## Jingers mom

I entered Riley's info into k9 data last week and checked today to see how his COI came out. It came out to be a 9.13%.


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## Ljilly28

Aislinn said:


> It's not uncommon to not find alot of champions in an English Champion pedigree. Getting a championship in England is much harder than getting an American championship.


In America, even with a good dog, it can be a marathon more than a sprint unless you really know what you are doing with timing/judge choices etc. I don't think I could do it if it were any harder!


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