# You make the call? Jump or return back



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

At a trial I would go ahead and sit (and then jump) him. In practice I would tell him he was wrong as soon as I saw him veering off.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

If the proofing had been done on it, it shouldn't be an issue. Years ago, when I had a Utility dog, we would train them to jump from the opposite corner. I am just now, starting to work go-outs with Dooley. Eventually, I will send him over from all kinds of locations. 

It will be interesting to hear the responses. Since it has been so long since I trained in Utility, things have changed, and I am having to relearn myself.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

If you are in a trial, I would sit him and send him. 
In practice, I would walk out to him, heel him back to the center of the ring between the two jumps, and send him again from that short distance so that he is successful. Then walk back out to him again, heel him back to the correct starting line, and send him again.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I train my dogs to jump from everywhere along the back gate. Hopefully the never lose their go-out to that extent, but it can happen. 

In practice, if their go-out is not straight, I walk out to them and heel them back to repeat the go-out - I may shorten the distance. But the jump is rewarding, as is returning to me, so a bad go-out is not rewarded with a jump in practice. 

In a trial, I will let them complete the exercise which is why I train the jumps from all angles (without a go-out but walking them out)


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sunrise said:


> I train my dogs to jump from everywhere along the back gate. Hopefully the never lose their go-out to that extent, but it can happen.
> 
> In practice, if their go-out is not straight, I walk out to them and heel them back to repeat the go-out - I may shorten the distance. But the jump is rewarding, as is returning to me, so a bad go-out is not rewarded with a jump in practice.
> 
> In a trial, I will let them complete the exercise which is why I train the jumps from all angles (without a go-out but walking them out)


Yep, that is what I was trying to say.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

I send him and then take more time lining up the second go out and make more of an effort to make him mark the right location. Practice gloves and then go outs... in that order for awhile so the dog will understand the differences..


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

What they said. I don't think the dog is smart enough to know it was wrong by virtue of the fact you called him in rather than let him jump. Then again I think it's a mortal sin to call a dog in after a go-out so I would never even consider that.


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## wakemup (Feb 6, 2011)

Yep. In a trial I would also sit the dog and signal to jump. Then do everything I could to get them to find their target when lining up for the next one. Also always practice jumping from all over heck and back to prepare for just such an occasion.


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## IndyDan (May 19, 2009)

Thanks for all the insights and suggestions.

As you have guessed, this happen to me in the ring. My dog looked lost and confused on the go-out. Since he went 10 feet past the jumps, the judge gave the command to jump. And he took the correct jump … it was ugly, but still completed the exercise (minus substantial deductions). I was able to due some teaching (within the guidelines) and we did a better go-out the second time.

If I call my dog back before the excises is over (and before the judge tells you), it’s coaching in the ring. Of course, it’s a (NQ) score and you could be excuse from the ring (for coaching). 

Recently, I was watching a handler, of a top rated OTCH dog, NQ his dog during a Scent Discrimination exercise due to looking around instead of searching (and he recalled the dog back to him). He didn’t want the dog to think or reinforce that behavior in the ring. 

In my case, I need additional proofing in new locations for go-outs. And I’ll let my dog search for scent articles until the judge says “time”. I guess that’s the difference between an OTCH and the next level beyond.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I was taught the same thing, although I haven't heard it called a mortal sin, LOLOL.
The thinking is that, if the dog knows it ALWAYS has to take one of the two jumps on the way back, you have a 50-50 chance of being right even in the very worst case scenario. 
If the dog thinks it can come back anywhere in the ring, you have really cut your chances and they are more likely to go around a jump.
The Monster Boy will take the jump even if he is lying down in a corner of the ring, facing away from me. Trust me, being able to take the jump from any position saved a UDX Q more than once.




K9-Design said:


> What they said. I don't think the dog is smart enough to know it was wrong by virtue of the fact you called him in rather than let him jump. Then again I think it's a mortal sin to call a dog in after a go-out so I would never even consider that.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> I was taught the same thing, although I haven't heard it called a mortal sin, LOLOL.
> The thinking is that, if the dog knows it ALWAYS has to take one of the two jumps on the way back, you have a 50-50 chance of being right even in the very worst case scenario.
> If the dog thinks it can come back anywhere in the ring, you have really cut your chances and they are more likely to go around a jump.
> The Monster Boy will take the jump even if he is lying down in a corner of the ring, facing away from me. Trust me, being able to take the jump from any position saved a UDX Q more than once.


Exactly. I think most folks do practice sending for jumps from odd places in the ring both as a proof and in case (or rather, when) their dog does an errant go out and ends up in some funky place. While you're probably out of the OTCH points if this happens I see no reason why to completely fold and call the dog in if it happens in the ring. 
It has crossed my mind that by me putting the dog in the corner or too close to a jump or something like that to practice jumping at odd angles, that the dog will assume this is okay, but really, I don't think they are intuitive enough to think "Well I jumped from the corner in practice three weeks ago, so that must be the spot I need to jump from for the rest of all time." Sorry dogs just ain't that smart. LOL If they were it wouldn't take months to years to train all this other stuff the right way!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Anney, I think the difference is that we PUT the dogs in the spot to proof them, we don't SEND them to it. So they don't make the connection that it's okay to go to that spot on a go-out. Just sort of thinking out loud, but that makes sense to me.
But in a show, when your boy heads to the corner of the ring because some pretty little girlie in season is standing there, and you give him a second, LOUD "SIT!!!" command, it helps if he can take the jump from that corner even though his back is to you


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

SO BAD! LOL
Yeah Fishie did that at a specialty once when they had the go out heading directly at the adjoining ring, showing little bitch puppies at the same time as my utility run. Fisher did a lovely straight go out then completely ignored me, stood and put his head into the other ring like "Hey ladies, wazzzzup!!!!!!" BAD BAD


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## Casey and Samson's Mom (Sep 24, 2011)

Casey has been confused on the go out at outdoor trials when the backdrop wasn't the same as what we trained (that changed fast!!) We'd practised lots with ring gates, curtains and plastic chain as ring borders...but our first outdoor utility trial used a red string! He was lost in space when I sent him out and veered for the steward's table...the only solid looking thing out there. We've since trained for such settings, but it is still very hard for him.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

IndyDan said:


> If I call my dog back before the excises is over (and before the judge tells you), it’s coaching in the ring. Of course, it’s a (NQ) score and you could be excuse from the ring (for coaching).


As long as you did not take a step in towards the dog most judges would not excuse you. It is the "intimidating" action that will get you tossed very quickly by virtually all judges. 



IndyDan said:


> Recently, I was watching a handler, of a top rated OTCH dog, NQ his dog during a Scent Discrimination exercise due to looking around instead of searching (and he recalled the dog back to him). He didn’t want the dog to think or reinforce that behavior in the ring.


One of the top handlers, more OTCHs than I have digits once told me that they will handle their dog differently in A classes than B classes. REALLY surprised me. In particular she was referring to the go-outs. She teaches them by the dog touching the stanchion. Even with the recent change in AKC's scoring of touching the stanchion she still has them do it till they are in the B class. Then she trains that behavior out of the sequence.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

AmbikaGR said:


> One of the top handlers, more OTCHs than I have digits once told me that they will handle their dog differently in A classes than B classes. REALLY surprised me. In particular she was referring to the go-outs. She teaches them by the dog touching the stanchion. Even with the recent change in AKC's scoring of touching the stanchion she still has them do it till they are in the B class. Then she trains that behavior out of the sequence.


Story doesn't quite add up. If they have all those OTCH's then they wouldn't be showing any of their dogs in the A classes. I have heard OTCH trainers say they do that while they are titling the dog in the class and then get the distance when they are going for the OTCH, is that what she meant?


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Loisiana said:


> Story doesn't quite add up. If they have all those OTCH's then they wouldn't be showing any of their dogs in the A classes. I have heard OTCH trainers say they do that while they are titling the dog in the class and then get the distance when they are going for the OTCH, is that what she meant?


You are right of course. I should have stated that while attaining their UD, not in the A class.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

I do call my dog back down the middle when practicing go outs. I will usually send three times each direction and split those two up with something in the middle.One or each jump and then the last is for the dowel.. I have also called him down the middle if I don't like the location or what happened..but he does come down the middle with the dowel at the end every time.


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