# Coming of age issues



## annacumbow (Sep 2, 2013)

I have a complex combination of questions and concerns. 

I come from a family of dog lovers who make a habit of rescuing dogs (full bred or mutts), and our two dogs of the past 9 years were both rescues. One was a border collie (Gypsy) and the other a golden retriever/collie mix (Moose - male, one year younger than female). When he eventually had to be put down, we very carefully considered our options for our next dog. 

Moose had some neurotic issues that we suspected may be related to the concern for some hereditary tendencies toward aggression in some lines of golden retrievers. It may have been totally unrelated and random, but we decided to take the leap and adopt a full bred golden. We love the breed and I have been interested in golden service and/or therapy dogs after going through school with one, growing up. We researched the area's breeders and chose a family who breed goldens at home for the love of the breed. They were also less expensive, which was a factor - though not the main concern, of course. We spent time with both parents and the litter, and chose a female puppy.

She has always been a bit mouthy and intense, but is a very sweet girl. Gypsy, however, has not been too crazy about her and bosses her around a good bit. Hazel is 10 months old now and the two have had two big (BIG) fights in the past few days. This is heartbreaking, of course, and we are trying to make the best decisions about how to remedy the situation. Hazel (golden) has essentially had enough of being pushed around and is probably vying for alpha female position, or at the least, asserting herself as someone who shouldn't be bullied. We suspect that Hazel is nearing maturity and that this has something to do with it. She has not had her first heat cycle yet and this may be the time and problem. 

I have always been interested in service dogs and now my children really could use one for their specific challenges. My son has Tourette's and potentially high functioning autism, and auditory and visual processing disorders. My daughter is off the charts ADHD and has sensory processing disorders. Both kids seem totally normal in general, but these issues to affect them and having a therapy dog to listen to them read or assist them in learning and processing would be a big help, we think. I also have a genetic autonomic nervous system issue and connective tissue disorder that will eventually lead to early onset arthritis and many other disabilities that would benefit from having a service dog. 

That said, we have been considering eventually getting a male golden (when Gypsy eventually passes, because heaven knows we don't need another dog in this mix for now). Hazel would be trained until that time and would be serving with my kids. The male would eventually be trained to by my service dog. 

We would also be interested in breeding the two and working with a training organization to train the pups as service dogs and match them up with people needing service dogs. We are taking this very seriously into consideration, as the issue of adding to the dog population is near to our hearts. We also understand that it is a big responsibility that would also require a lot of work. 

That being said, I am keeping our CURRENT dogs as the obvious priority. If having Hazel spayed now would help to decrease the issue of fighting and keep them both safe, then it would (of course) be worth it. If there is even the strong possibility that it would help, we might choose to do it and just train her as a therapy dog for the kids, and eventually get a male for me. Then, maybe EVENTUALLY after Hazel passes on, get a girl if we choose to revisit the breeding plan. 

I would love some insight on these thoughts and I think that you guys are the best resource for this. I frequent this page/group and appreciate the wisdom that is shared here. I am honestly a little on the freaked out side since Moose fell so far off the sanity wagon before his death. I want to protect Hazel and help her grow up to be a sane and reliable dog. 

They aren't separated at all, and still hang out around each other. Hazel tends to stick to me like glue now, and is clearly terrified of Gypsy, but she is the one who "throws down" when Gyspy starts to look at her funny or bully her with food. Other than that, they lay around in the same rooms together and share the water bowl, etc. 

Also, Gypsy is a great dog, but is snappy thanks to her border collie-ness. I have noticed Hazel starting to be snappy and moody, and I don't know if I should consider this to be learned behavior from her only canine role model or if it indicates some genetic tendency toward aggression. That would also be a huge factor in choosing to spay her and not to breed her to avoid increasing aggressive nature in the breed. We are very serious about protecting the character and authenticity of the breed - not for snobby reasons, but for safety reasons and for our deep love of the true character of goldens. 

I just really need some encouragement from those who have experience in this area, and some wisdom about raising healthy, sane dogs. I tried looking it up online, but everything I found seemed to say that it was hopeless and female dogs tend to fight to the death. 

Anyone have any ideas? Thank you so much for your time and consideration, I genuinely appreciate it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Okay -



> Gypsy, however, has not been too crazy about her and bosses her around a good bit.


Revisit an old thread on border collies, but my opinion is most herding breeds have an assertive temperament. And they can be fairly pushy with other dogs.

We have a rough collie over here, and while he is an angel - he does keep both goldens in order. They are not allowed to playfight when he's around, because he does not approve. And... little things like that. It's instincts for him.



> Hazel is 10 months old now and the two have had two big (BIG) fights in the past few days.... has essentially had enough of being pushed around and is probably vying for alpha female position, or at the least, asserting herself as someone who shouldn't be bullied.


Just a quick thought here - and this comes from owning two intact male goldens. I love both boys and they have excellent temperaments. But. I do not let them get carried away with playfighting, and there are other manners issues that I will step in and reinforce. 

With border collies, again - please keep in mind that these dogs do not always put up with the same silliness that gets a pass with other breeds. And then female dogs can be fairly witchy that I understand. So you are likely right in what you are seeing, you just need to step in and assert yourself as the boss.

This doesn't mean alpha pinning either dog, of course. It just means that you are the trainer. The dogs must listen to you when you tell them to "stop" whatever they are doing. 

If you see either dog posturing - you have to be able to tell them to stop what they are doing and go settle. 

Wherever dogs are on their own social ladder, you are still the top rung in the house. The dogs must obey you and you must keep them in order. This is for your sanity and for their safety. 

For the time being, I would keep the dogs calm when they are together. And divert the "play" attention from each other to you or your family members. The golden goes outside to play with the kids, separate from the border collie. And same thing with the border collie. 

Any activity that would excite the dogs or make them turfy - you have to keep them separate. 

Walk them together - by all means. And I'd even let them sleep together and hang out together in the house. But eating, playing, and period of high activity and excitement - they have to be kept separate. Or you have to be right there to tell them to back off. 



> We would also be interested in breeding the two and working with a training organization to train the pups as service dogs and match them up with people needing service dogs.


It doesn't sound like your female golden is the correct temperament for service dogs (for other people). And with breeding, you have to take pedigree and health backgrounds into consideration. And do not breed without full clearances on both the female and the male. As well as clearances and full knowledge of the dogs behind both dogs. 



> If having Hazel spayed now


I think it's something to consider. 



> They aren't separated at all, and still hang out around each other. Hazel tends to stick to me like glue now, and is clearly terrified of Gypsy, but she is the one who "throws down" when Gyspy starts to look at her funny or bully her with food.


And this is why you need to step in and manage situations. She should respect the other dog, especially considering the breed. But terrified? And resource guarding is a management issue, and easily fixed by keeping the dogs separate when there is food or bones involved. 



> Also, Gypsy is a great dog, but is snappy thanks to her border collie-ness. I have noticed Hazel starting to be snappy and moody, and I don't know if I should consider this to be learned behavior from her only canine role model or if it indicates some genetic tendency toward aggression. That would also be a huge factor in choosing to spay her and not to breed her to avoid increasing aggressive nature in the breed. We are very serious about protecting the character and authenticity of the breed - not for snobby reasons, but for safety reasons and for our deep love of the true character of goldens.


I think it is great you are giving this factor consideration. And I believe you are on the right track....


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## annacumbow (Sep 2, 2013)

Megora, 

Thank you for taking the time to give such a well considered reply. A few things to throw out there in response: 

This is our second pairing of border collies and goldens, though the first border was half beagle (we later concluded that this should not be allowed by nature, as her instincts combined to "round you up and eat you"...lol. It was comical only bc she did this to small non canine yard wild life. We saved what we could when we could)...anyway, she (Bella) and Moose (golden/collie/possibly german shephard in there somewhere) got along wonderfully. My parent's loved Bella so much, they adopted a full border collie rescue. This is Gypsy, the current border collie in question. 

What we have now are magnified personality/breed traits from what we started with, since both are full blooded little scoundrels. We have spent just shy of 10 years with both breeds, to some degree and are pretty familiar with the typical traits like herding, nipping, general bossiness and almost automatic "alpha dog" material of the (especially female) border collies. 

Gypsy is also my mother's dog. The two of them moved in with us about a year ago and Gypsy decided to move in with us and has slept in our bedroom on the floor ever since. She and Hazel have handled this well and since Gyspy has no desire to sleep on the bed, Hazel is free to sleep wherever she wants. No problems there. 

In both pairing situations, our goldens seem to say to the border collies, "Look, I get it. You're in charge. You can have more of EVERYTHING in our house besides human interaction." Typically, this has gone uncontested. 

We don't give a lot of thought to who we greet first who who gets what first, because Hazel runs to greet us first, but clearly has no intentions of trying to eat until Gypsy says she can. Gyspy has always hoarded bones and Hazel always squeezes her way in between a human and Gypsy getting attention. No one seems to have problems with this until about two days ago. They also have always played hard, as did our other two, with no escalating issues. Both submit to each other in play with no issues. The fights were CLEARLY fights and not play, and there wasn't escalation. Both times the fights have gone like this: 

Hazel has something unusually good to eat. 

Gypsy, who already ate hers, gives Hazel the Evil Eye. 

Hazel lunges for Gypsy and they duke it out until we are able to calm them down. 

The first time, my mom and I were both home and each grabbed a dog. Today, I was alone with the kids so when it was clear that I wasn't going to be able to separate them easily, I just backed off and let them work things out on their own for a bit. After three or four minutes, they were wearing out but not stopping the fight, so I tried again. They gave up (essentially) and I stood kind of between them telling them to sit. They both basically walked off and moved on. 

For a few hours, they avoided each other, and we left them alone in the house for about 6 hours after that, and they were both still alive when we got home. Hazel is back to her usual submissive self, and Gypsy is back to her pensive, aloof self. When we got home, Matt took Hazel in with the kids when he put them to bed, and I sat with Gypsy rubbing her and brushing her hair, since she is shedding. We make extra effort to be sure Hazel gets to eat at some point without Gypsy, and that Gypsy gets attention without Gypsy. 

We are making an effort to have each dog do something, like sit or lay down, before we pet them for now, or for food or going outside. There doesn't seem to be any issue with toys or hard chew toys, just delicious treats. Actually, little training treats aren't an issue either. They will perform commands next to each other and receive treats without aggression. It is just if they have a rawhide, or apparently a delicious bowl of Special K.

Hazel seems to be following Gypsy around now, and has returned to sniffing Gypsy's behind as always...even looking for her to be around her again. But she is also clearly aware of her role in the line up. It seems more or less like she is just saying, "I can only take so much of this. You can have everything most of the time, but dagonit, let me enjoy this stinking bowl of cereal in peace. Or I'll kill you." 

We are pretty sure she is at the end of her first cycle, as we have noticed her licking her bottom and found a spot of blood on the bed. This could be from a wound from the fight, but it would make sense for her to be acting this way bc she is hormonal. Not to anthropomorphise anybody, but it seems a little PMSish. 

If there was hope that this would settle out on it's own I would be so relieved. We just want everybody to get along, basically. If having Hazel spayed would make a difference in their interaction, we would do it. If it wouldn't, we would rather wait at least until she is fully mature to have her fixed. 

As far as breeding is concerned, it is a while in the future, but would be effected by these decisions for obvious reasons. For those of you with female goldens, is this typical of their puberty 'years'? She is the sweetest, most docile girl other than these two recent occasions. Her parents both had the sweetest dispositions, the father AKC and the mother CKC. We have already arranged with her vet to get her clearances, so that we would know not to breed if she has any issues. I am hyper sensitive to the aggression issue, so my first thought after the first fight ended was "Oh no, she's aggressive." But my mom didn't think that the situation qualified. Anyone have any experience with that? 

Sorry for the rambling. I'm over analyzing it bc I am anxious about it. We love the idea of always having dogs from this same family line in the future, but not at the expense of our dogs' safety, our sanity, or the breed's quality. 

Again, thanks for getting this far in the rambling! I promise to stop now!


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

I was just reading last week in "control unleashed-puppy" about the gal's border collie and tendency to "dominate" other dogs. You might check it out, as her focus was to never let the BC do so but used creative training principles to achieve it. We used to have a subtle-dominant golden (hazel) who could throw her niece over the edge and Lila would take her down. We tried to be diligent about getting in the middle if Hazel was being a subtle bully and make sure Lila had the space she needed. 


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## annacumbow (Sep 2, 2013)

I love that you have a Hazel, too! we picked it after probably two weeks of name trials. She is a smaller framed 'field' variety (from what I have found online) - as is her mother- with almost Irish Setter colored fur. From what I read, it seems as though goldens were originally closer in appearance to irish setters than they are today. Anyway, a name meaning 'reddish golden' seemed fitting, and it rhymed so nicely with Crazy Hazy. 

...Having trouble finding that thread, but it is likely bc I'm on my iPhone now...harder to navigate using the app. I will keep looking though and appreciate the suggestion! 

What do you guys think the chances are of Hazel becoming dog aggressive from this? We are getting her signed up for obedience classes this fall, hoping to socialize with friendly dogs who are also focused on good behavior and obedience. 

We are leaning toward spaying her at this point, out of concern for her safety and happiness in the long run. We rally want her to be a happy, SANE, easy going kind of dog that could join us on adventures when appropriate rather than one we have to keep at home and put 'up' when guests come over. 

Feeling so heart broken right now. :/ 


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## annacumbow (Sep 2, 2013)

Also, I'm totally with you on teaching them to comply. Gypsy has always been intimidating. Her glowing icy blue eyes make you want to do whatever she says! We have had a discussion or two where she insisted on non-compliance and I had to tell her how it was. A no nonsense "see here" reaction from me, even with just a change of the tone in my voice, and she submits to human authority. She and Hazel both typically redirect if we intervene verbally when they are contemplating pecking order in any situation. The two fights they both were in the zone and they didn't even acknowledge my presence. 

I am really hoping that they have established their hierarchy now and things will calm down...I just keep seeing things online about bitches fighting to the death. It's no wonder the name developed negative connotations!! 


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Not to add fuel to your fears but reading quickly through this thread I was reminded of a story from our obedience trainer. An acquaintance of hers who owned a female border collie was taking care of someone else's female border collie. The dogs were left alone and got into a fight which was "a fight to the death" with one of them killing the other. So it does happen.

In terms of therapy and service dogs, temperament and training are the keys. Not all Goldens have the temperament to be therapy or service dogs. Service dogs require substantial training. Some of the nationally recognized organizations such as Delta/Pet Partners, Pet Partners®, and TDI have websites where you can learn what's involved in training a therapy or service dog.


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## annacumbow (Sep 2, 2013)

Yeah, I have seen PLENTY of examples of bad results with females fighting. :/ We can only hope that they respond well to our efforts to defuse the situation. We have had dogs in the past who would have likely killed each other, given ample opportunity. 

I do know that service dogs definitely have to be even keeled and impeccably trained. Her role would be with our own children, and she would mostly be serving as a reading partner -like at the libraries but just for our kids. She would potentially work at the hospital on a rotation with other therapy dogs. The aggression issue would have to be figured out, and it would affect breeding, which I think we are ruling out anyway. 

I frequently joke around, saying that I need a service dog to retrieve all of the things she currently nabs and runs off with. Drives me nuts! Lol. Next mission: train dog to "leave it" no matter how much she wants to play! 

Anybody got a story with a happy ending with females fighting?


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

I was referring yo a book, not a thread, sorry! We lost our Hazey two months ago, very very difficult. I wish we had figured out the dynamic sooner and I think it did make Lila a bit more reactive, so I recommend nipping it in the bud. Your Hazel may learn the only way to gain space and exert a boundary is with excessive aggression. Once we did realize it and intercepted our Hazel's behavior we had few issues with those
two, but always had to be careful with food. We never had fights, just very vocal altercations.

We called our Hazel -Crazel as a pup. She was wild!


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Females in heat can be VERY moody. I have a friend whose Dobe girl went after the other dogs in her house constantly when she was in heat. My friend had her spayed asap. 

My Selli was intact until six and she you could see her behavior change as she went through heat. She was less patient with the boys during her first week and then quite the sl*t the second week and the third she gradually got back to normal. She sure did confuse some of her male dog friends. However, she was never grumpy with her house-mate Duffy.

As such, getting Hazel spayed will probably cool her jets as long as her aggression was hormonally based. In addition, I think that her over the top behavior does indicate that she does have an incorrect temperament that should not be passed on to another generation of Goldens.

One possible reason your first pairing of Golden and Collie mix worked was that one was a boy and one was a girl. In general dogs are willing to let dogs of other sexes get away with much more crap. I would work at putting a stop to Gypsy's resource guarding and Hazel's attention hogging.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

How old is Hazel? I ask because there is a LOT of information out about increased health risks by spaying before they are sexually mature. We spayed our Hazel before going into heat, and she recently died of cardiac hermangiosarcoma, which I recently learned comes with a 4x risk with early spay. I recommend manage it with behavioral controls, separation, training, exercise (exhaustion is good!) and let her go through her heat and then do it.


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## annacumbow (Sep 2, 2013)

She is 10 mo old now. She is def in the bleeding stage of her cycle and is...well, moody. Bless her heart. She isn't displaying any other signs of trying to be top dog- she happily filled Gypsy around again like a shadow, off and on throughout the day, and fine taking turns with less valuable (than rawhide) toys. And even if her nose is already pressed into the crack of the door opening, she will wait patiently until G comes up from behind her and goes through the door first. 

She is showing signs of fear of G now, like hesitating to walk past her in the hall until she reads G's demeanor and body language. She also seems uncomfortable and irritable. Being a female, myself, she seems to be displaying what I consider to be pretty normal emotions and reactions for being hormonal. I was letting her above her tail tonight and she jumped up like I had hurt her somehow.  She really seems pretty normal for the female dogs I have owned in my life...but the were all border collies and we assumed they were just being themselves. I expected different of her bc she is a golden but my only golden was a mix and a BOY. We could have plucked his hair out strand by strand and he would have not complained about it. (Trying to cut his nails or his hair behind his ears, however, was another matter...scared him to death...oh and he wanted to eat our adorable two year old neighbor.) anyway, I suppose a lot of it is learning their individual personalities as well as he breed's. Any of her hostility appears to be hormonally based IN COMBINATION with being bullied her entire life at our house by a chubby border collie who is doing her best to hoard all food and rawhides from Hazel. 

Looking into our options now. Not sure when we would get her fixed, if we do. May ask around more about that. Hate to give up so easily on her as a breeding dog...without better evidence that it really is an aggression issue for her... :/ 

Feeling very torn.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

You have at least 14 months and numerous tests your girl needs to pass before you should even consider breeding her, and I say this as a person who got her current Golden with the thought of possibly breeding her. My approach to the issue was that she had to PROVE to me she was of high enough quality to breed. That meant she had to pass all her clearances, have a good immune system (not have allergies, bad skin, thyroid issues), be sufficiently biddable (just because a dog is a Golden does not mean it is trainable) as shown by advanced titles in a dog sport, have the proper temperament and pass the Golden Retriever Club of America's CCA. Failing any of those requirements meant I would never breed her no matter how wonderful I thought she was or how much I loved her.

The one subjective element in those requirements was temperament, everything else was pass/fail. When deciding if she had a proper temperament I looked at her worst traits and asked myself would this be a problem for the average pet owner. Selli will tell off a dog that gets in her face too much. It is a correction on her part to tell the other dog to back off. She never bites, just gets mouthy and in essence yells at them. I did not like that trait and it is a major reason I did not breed her as she passed all the other tests. I did not make excuses for her so I could breed her even though I really wanted to and love so much about her and think those traits should be passed on in the Golden breed.

I don't think you should make excuses for your girls temperament either, especially given that you want to produce service dogs. Imagine if one of your pups was placed in a home where there was an older grumpy dog and your pup fought with it, would the disabled person be able to stop the fight, would they be caught in the middle? Too much risk there. You can't say whether the aggression is solely the result of being in heat or if it a manifestation of a temperament issue but it is there. Anyone who breeds Goldens HAS to make sure they are not breeding temperament issues first and foremost.


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## annacumbow (Sep 2, 2013)

I actually totally agree with you. My plan has been exactly what you listed as your checklist. 

The frustrating thing is that I feel like she has just been bullied into her reaction over the past 8 months of G stealing and hoarding everything and she just had enough of it. But I agree that the bottom line is that we would never want her to react that way at all. 

For our pet it isn't a big deal, of course. I genuinely think it is just a matter of combining her being hormonally on edge and just having enough of G's bullying. 

How old is your girl now? 


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## annacumbow (Sep 2, 2013)

Also, we didn't have any plans to breed her until age 2-3. We have just been observing behavior and personality since she was little to get a feel for whether she would make a good breeding dog. That's why my first thought, after things settled down, was about her potential for aggression. The decision now obviously just effects her future ability to breed. We are trying to decide how old she should be to get spayed not to be bred. 

Sorry for typos! I'm on my phone...crazy auto correct!


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## annacumbow (Sep 2, 2013)

As another piece of this puzzle, my concern for aggression stems not only from our mix Moose, who was verified by a number of vets whenever we moved, as neurotic, but also from a situation I heard of about 6 years ago.

A woman I met at a a baby shower told me the story of her son's recent horrible experience with a dog attack. They were visiting friends who had just returned from a day of hunting with their male golden. Her son, something like 5 years old, pounced on the fully exhausted, sleeping dog. The dog snapped at him and bit his face, which was so damaged that it required surgery and he, not surprisingly, is now terrified of dogs.

The dog had never had any signs of aggression at all, according to the owners. It was this story that led to my research and discovery that some goldens are aggressive enough to be considered #3 for bites...as discussed on a thread in this site. So I feel like I am hyper sensitive to the issue.

I'm not trying to make an argument for our girl, I'm just really interested in the experience of long time breeders and the personalities of their bitches. I mean, really, there's a reason that therm has gotten negative connotations. If it is the general nature of female dogs, which truly seems to be my lifelong experience, then it seems odd to consider a dog who defends herself in this kind of situation as aggressive. 

We aren't going to breed this dog, and aren't going to consider breeding again until later in life with another dog. I am interested in the issue though. According to the thread debating goldens rank for bites, the general opinion seems to be that dogs are dogs and any dog can be pushed to its personal limit and attack someone/some dog that attacks it. 


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Selli is nine now or six for the third time as we like to say. Maybe you can get in touch with a local reputable service dog organization and have them evaluate your girl. See if they would have a problem with using her pups. 

I would keep an eye on her behavior (watch out for a false pregnancy) and be as brutally honest with yourself as possible in regards to determining if she has the right stuff to breed. In addition, realize that the best sire your your girl's potential litters is unlikely to be the male you wish to buy. Determining the best sire is something else a reputable service dog organization could help you with.

Breeding dogs the right way is a huge investment in time and money and can end in heartbreak as our member LJilly can attest to. She bred her Grand Champion girl to a deceased male and had twelve beautiful pups a month ago. At three weeks of age she lost nine of the pups and almost lost her girl too. The idea that I could lose my baby girl put the final nail in the coffin of my plans to breed.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I read somewhere that a golden, regardless of gender, with a stable temperament will tolerate a LOT. I have a female, and she has never gotten into it with any dog or person. She is definitely a dog who tries to avoid conflict. There are quite a few members on here with two female goldens living together who have not had any problems, as far as I know. And, (sorry if this is mean) when you get a golden from a backyard breeder, it will be less likely to display true golden temperament than if you were to get a dog from a reputable breeder. There are zillions of poorly bred dogs that do not fit the standard physically or temperamentally. So I am not surprised with the statistic that most bites come from goldens. There are just so many goldens compared to most other breeds, and most of them are poorly bred, without the golden retriever standard and GRCA code of ethics in mind. If you are seriously interested in breeding, please find a reputable breeder (who breeds according to the COE, completes clearances, and competes with their dogs in the show ring, obedience, etc) who can act as your mentor. Please don't start your breeding program with a BYB dog that wasn't bred to standard. 

Also, I have read about people waking up dogs from dreams and inadvertently scaring the dog, causing them to "attack". If someone pounced on me while I was sleeping, my first instinct would probably be to defend myself too!

And, I don't know for sure, but it seems like your Hazel may have food aggression, which *may not* be true aggression. She has been taught by Gypsy to protect her valued items. 


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## annacumbow (Sep 2, 2013)

Vhuynh2, I agree with you on most of your points.

On the quality of the dog, I am not one to get a dog from a breeder who was careless with breeding. I am also, however, not one to attach such a stigma to anyone who isn't trying to produce show dogs. I believe that great care can be taken and clearances obtained regardless of the size of your program or the amount of time you spend in a show ring. Not everyone in the world care about showing dogs. 

Selli-Belle, I think you have some great ideas. I think our plan is going to be to put her in an obedience class. Though she has excellent obedience already- it is really for the long term goal of giving her an outlet for fun on the higher levels of the agility course. We are joining the dog club to also continue her experience with socialization. Then we will set up her spay procedure. That will give her a few more months after her first heat. 

She is seriously the sweetest dog. I think her timidity and reaction is learned from her housemate. We have had several pairings of dogs and this pair just had that quality about it. Anyway. Just going to look out for her best interests at this point. Our concern for her health and safety are our priority. 

What happened to those poor dogs you mentioned? That is so sad! I'm sure the family is heart broken. 

I am interested in your comment about a male to breed not having the same qualities as our ideal pet. Day more about that, if you will.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

A good breeder does not necessarily have to produce show dogs, but they should prove their dogs in some venue. Having two "great pets" with "amazing temperament" is not a good enough reason to breed. Like Selli-Belle said, most of the time, reputable breeders do not breed to their own dogs. They find an accomplished sire that complements the female to better the breed. The male you own is not likely going to be the one. 


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## annacumbow (Sep 2, 2013)

I agree that temperament is not the only issue to consider. I agree that all health issues should be considered. I believe that it is entirely possible to have a mismatch in pets for breeding, though I don't think it would be impossible. 

I respectfully disagree that a dog or owner need to prove themselves in any way other than these considerations and ability to learn obedience and commands unless the dog is being considered for service, in which case there would be an entire other additional checklist determined by the intended area of service. Any one of these things could cause a dog to be disqualified for these roles, but not as a perfectly wonderful pet.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Never mind.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

On first glance the need to "prove" dogs may seem silly. However we are all blinded by love and aren't we taught to "trust but verify"? Proving dogs through some sort of title is verification. Without it you may have nothing more than your own love blinded opinion- at least to others looking in from the outside. How are going going to find a hood stud to breed your girl to, other than another unproven owner/dog? A good stud dog isn't going to be selling sperm to just anyone and you'll be relegated to those that don't care or may be truly a bad judge of their beloved dog's character. There are so many ways to get titles for dogs now there is really no excuse if you want quality pups. Better to find quality pups from someone else than find yourself attached to a mediocre service dog just because you raised it from birth.

I wouldn't write her off yet, the golden temperament isn't supposed to just bowl over in the face of aggression. Perhaps more training, a cgc title and consulting with a good trainer can help you better assess her.


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## annacumbow (Sep 2, 2013)

Well, I most certainly appreciate the views and opinions of you who have taken time to give responses. We are not going to breed Hazel, for a number of reasons. The well considered input from many of you has helped with that. The number one reason we don't plan to go into breeding now is not that Hazel doesn't make a good match, but honestly the attitudes of snobbery that infiltrate the arena. 

I whole heartedly believe that being able to take the wisdom of others into consideration and change your own views is essential in life. I can see where several issues that have been addressed here bring up legitimate concerns for the congruency of the breed on the whole and have convinced me that Hazel is not an ideal candidate. I'm ok with that. 

But after perusing many pages of this site and a number of off handed slights on this thread, I can say that I have no desire to join into a world of self righteousness in regard to pedigree. I may very well, or may not, in the future purchase a male golden for our family- though not to breed, just because I'm partial to boys and I like having one of each. Depending on the circumstances and what breeders are in the area at the time, we will choose the dog that seems to be the best fit. I absolutely appreciate the earnest efforts of genuine breeders to enhance and protect the nature of the breed. 

I most certainly do not agree that there should be a difference in 'pet quality' and 'show quality' - shouldn't the aim be to have in our homes and around our children the absolute best personality 'quality' available? Should physical appearance be held at such high standards in a creature that we would consider those who differ 'lesser' as I have read on other pages? 

It's like saying girls who don't do pageants are of less quality than those who do. That if your child doesn't prove themselves with placing at science fairs that they have less worth than those that do. I mean, come on. 

There is a reason that we have a million breeds of dog - people experiment and breed for desired traits. When you end up with a type of dog with the desired characteristics, you work to maintain it. When you start to develop inbreeding issues, you work to alleviate them. Working to maintain a breed's quality is NOT the same thing as elitism, nor should snobbery masquerade as concern for a breed. 

Coming from a life of mutts and rescued pure bred dogs, I can say that I am glad that we chose a pure bred golden this time around, and will likely have many more throughout life. I am not, however, convinced that putting the money and effort into buying a dog of 'show quality' should lead owners to put on airs. 

My desire was join in the effort to produce goldens with every precaution taken to prevent breeding in detrimental traits or health issues and to enhance desired traits. My goal was to increase the number of true to breed standards dogs that could be trained to serve children with neurological and physical disorders, as my son has, or degenerative disorders as I have. I had hoped to do what I could do to improve the negative attitudes of snobby breeders and owners. But honesty, I just don't think it's worth it. 

There's just so much negativity in the world of dog breeding and pure bred dogs. 


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

The is a lot of negativity and snobbery in the world of pure bred dogs. Some of it comes from less than nice people and unfortunately some of it comes from people who put concern for dogs above and before everything else including welcoming people who are interested in joining their ranks. 

Breeding dog the right way is not for wimps, it takes a person who can deal with and learn from criticism and snide comments and it takes someone who can handle the stress and potential heart break of the whole process. The dog I mentioned is doing well as are her three remaining pups who are now approximately five weeks old, but it was a traumatic week for the breeder and the dogs. It may be that getting involved with online Golden groups as I have, you hear the most about problematic litters, but the number of females who die while in the breeding process is horrifying. 

On this forum, we do like to stress the idea that to show that a Golden has the "right stuff" to pass on, it should have titles and yes, getting those titles has become a hobby for people, especially those who intend to breed. Yes, there is some pride wrapped up in getting those titles since the dogs don't care if they have them, but the do demonstrate in a relatively objective manner, 1) that the dog can do something or conforms to the breed standard (and for Goldens, the breed standard includes trainability) and 2) that the owner cares enough about the breed that they are willing to have their dog judged to see if they are to standard.

As to the temperament and biting issue. The incident you gave of the Golden who bit the child who jumped on him, that is a very tricky one. I think almost any dog would be excused for biting in that situation, however I have had dogs who did not bite when my Mom fell on them (yes it happened more than once, my Mom had Parkinsons) at night in the dark. One was my Golden and one was my parents Golden/Collie mix. 

Yes Goldens are dogs and dogs bite, but I am a huge stickler for temperament and I think it is a bit like saying a Military Officer is a human and can do horrible things like any human, but they are held to a higher standard and are expected to behave accordingly. I think Goldens are like that, I hold them to a higher standard when I am considering if they should be bred.

Go for a male Golden, they are the very best and you will love having one when the time is right!


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Hello! 

I have a "food aggressive" dog (which we've trained most of the resource guarding OUT of), and I have found that the guarding instinct kicks in overdrive when the animal perceives a threat to whatever they are guarding. 

I also have a male cat (neutered) that bullies (bullied) our female cat - to the point that I was thinking of euthanizing the male because I was unable to place him with that temperament. 

I think that both the border collie and the golden need more training, and that the humans need to set rules for the dogs to abide by. For almost a year (!) we crated the male cat at night, and separated them during the day because we didn't want to come home and find one or both DEAD.

I've seen my boy, Bear, who just turned 1 last month, really grow into himself and around 9-10 months old, he started pushing back and saying "I'm not a baby anymore" and the dogs around him would also treat him differently. I have read on the forum, through individual experiences, that as puppies become dogs, the dogs around them will beginning telling them off. It's in essence, a teenager. How many times have you told, or been told when you were younger, that you knew better? Around this age, the dog *should* know better and older dogs will correct them. 

With that in mind - I think both Gypsy and Hazel need help. IMHO, the border collie needs to learn her own lessons, such as "bullying will not be tolerated". If the fighting continues, I recommend taking both animals to a certified animal behaviorist, to get help sorting them out. 

FWIW - my cats cohabit peacefully now. It only took us over a year to metaphorically knock some sense into the bully, and build up the confidence of my little girl. 

I hope your home returns to a peaceful environment soon. Animal fights drive me crazy and make my blood pressure spike. 

Take care!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I most certainly do not agree that there should be a difference in 'pet quality' and 'show quality' - shouldn't the aim be to have in our homes and around our children the absolute best personality 'quality' available? Should physical appearance be held at such high standards in a creature that we would consider those who differ 'lesser' as I have read on other pages?


I think this is sometimes based on what you are talking about as far as why a golden retriever "should" be bred. 

It's not always about show quality. Show quality even doesn't have an exact definition for most people.

Me personally.... I think that golden retrievers should be immediately recognizable in look and behavior as golden retrievers. And I think that before anyone decides to breed a dog, they have to base their decisions on whether the goldens they own actually are breed standard and possess all the correct traits. Because of the health problems in the breed, I think it is also extremely important that you know what's behind your dogs before you actually breed them. 

Or know what traits your dog has which could be hereditary and PITB's for the owners of the puppies you create. 

As far as people being snobby or putting on airs... I'm sorry if I was one of those who came across that way in any of my posts. I get touchy when I read people saying that their backyard bred dogs are just the same as a purebred dog from a careful and deliberate breeder. 

I think it's kinda cool that my Bertie has a famous grandfather and people know who his dad and uncles are. In Bertie I see the results of very deliberate and thought-driven breeding done by his breeders and so forth. I think that sort of thing should be encouraged and hallowed as very important for the breed. 

Therapy work is not a goal for my goldens. Not right now. I do know that Bertie's uncle (who he looks and acts a lot like) is a therapy dog, as well as a champion golden. When I was there at their home, I basically had the impression that this golden was simply a family pet whose family worship him. 

His other breeder (there were three parties involved with Bertie's breeding) while emailing back and forth with me recently came back at me with exclamation points when I told her how Bertie is always coming up and wanting to be touched or in human contact with somebody. She was on her computer with Bertie's brother (the pup she picked) in her lap. 

There definitely is pageantry that gets a bit silly (correction VERY silly - good example would be people demanding that nobody name their dogs after famous dogs) in conformation. I used to watch the show Tots and Tiaras (or whatever the name is) - and I saw a lot of obedience and conformation people that I know and like in some of the moms! It was hilarious! 

Doesn't mean it's all bad.


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