# Very Disturbed Right Now



## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

I do not want to start a bad thread up again nor do I even need to read a response, I just would like to voice my opinion concerning the thread that was closed with Rictic defending himself and his situation.
A public forum is just that, a public forum. We have the right to respectfully state our opinions and concerns, if we break those rules the forum has the right and obligation to stop the thread, I fully understand that.
My understanding is, the man is incredibly afraid and distraught over his situation, as I would be in a similar situation. The man was obviously pushed to his limits here and I do not condone some responses from him I do however understand his frustration. Just for the record, I consider myself a compassionate person and have always tried to respect the rights of others. I would never injure a dog or person based on my presumption of danger. That said, If I an my family and dog were sitting out in my garden causing no harm to any person and that dog came on to my property in an aggressive way with the intent to harm, he would be taken down by whatever means were necessary, including my own life. It would trouble me to do it but rest assured it would be done.
I believe many things were said on the forum in anger and despair but we also need to put ourselves in that chair in our garden to understand it.
This thread can close now too, just needed to voice my opinion.
WagonDog


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I agree. I understand his fear and frustration, and having been called crazy was not helpful.

I hope that the situation doesn't end in tragedy for any of the parties involved.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

After reading the thread wagondog, I agree with you. Rictic is dealing with a very frustrating and almost impossible situation. Not many were understanding of how scared he was and how powerless he felt.
I don't agree with killing a dog, but I would if it was about to kill me or my dogs.
Apparently the U.S. isn't the only place where people can feel they need to defend themselves.

Now that he is banned, he is even more alone in dealing with this situation.


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

His ban is for 1 week only and that was for the swearing and insults he used not the content of the thread itself.


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## Kelbys'Dad (Jan 19, 2009)

Thank you Wagondog.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have called him crazy. I was/am very upset that someone on our forum was seriously insinuating that he was going to kill a dog, with rat poison I believe he had mentioned.

I apologize to everyone for my insensitivity, it threw me for a loop.


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## Bailey & Charlies Mom (Jan 27, 2009)

I haven't stopping thinking about Ritic since reading the thread. I know if it was me and my dogs I would be scared to death. A similar situation happened in our area a couple of years ago with a Rotti. The owners were walking their dog on leash past the Rotti's home and the Rotti was loose. It attacked and killed the dog right in fornt of the owners. What was even sadder was the owners of the Rotti immediately shipped him off to another province so the authorities could not find it and would not disclose where he was. Nothing else ever came of it. So my heart goes out to Ritic living in his own home and fearing that this dog will attack and quite likey kill his Golden. 
I hope this situation does not come to that and can only offer my prayers and thoughts for he and his family at this time.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

I just read this thread. Jezus !

I was on the fence all the way up to post 70, where he completely jumped the shark. That was it for me. The GRF really has 'generous' rules when it comes to lanquage. The Sailor in all of us is bound to come out every now and then (hell, I was a Chief in the Navy LOL).

See, there I go LOL

But the assembling of sentences to provoke like that are uncalled for.

I can only hope his first post when he comes back is an apology. Other than his "kill the dog" statements, which I can understand from my heart but felt were not quite yet supported by fact, I was ok with it all until post 70. Starting there his postings sadly required me to re-evaluate everything else he had written.


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## marleysmummy (Jul 11, 2008)

Does anyone from the UK (I know rictic also posts on the UK members page and is friendly with some people on there), maybe have another way to get in touch with him to make sure everything is OK with both him and Otis, maybe an email?

I do not agree with what he has said, but would like for him to know there are people here who still care about Otis and his well being and we understand how scared rictic is right now.


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

Can't blame the guy for being upset. Two pitbulls live down the street from me and they managed to pull their next door neighbors Jack Russell through the fence and killed it. The owner only has about a 4 ft. chainlink fence and often lets them out in the backyard when he gets home. I called animal control and told them these dogs were not secured properly and they paid him a visit. I haven't seen them out in the backyard much since. The guy is one of these deluded pitbull freaks who will stand there and tell you his dogs wouldn't harm a fly. I don't trust those dogs as far as I can throw them.


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## magiclover (Apr 22, 2008)

This is a very difficult situation for Dave and his family. I know he is in fear for his family and for Otis. That being said, this is a public forum and everyone should be held to certain standards in regards to language or insult of a particular group of people. I am praying for a positive outcome for everyone's safety and will welcome Dave back when he is able to return.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Romeo said:


> Can't blame the guy for being upset. Two pitbulls live down the street from me and they managed to pull their next door neighbors Jack Russell through the fence and killed it. The owner only has about a 4 ft. chainlink fence and often lets them out in the backyard when he gets home. I called animal control and told them these dogs were not secured properly and they paid him a visit. I haven't seen them out in the backyard much since. The guy is one of these deluded pitbull freaks who will stand there and tell you his dogs wouldn't harm a fly. I don't trust those dogs as far as I can throw them.



These pitbulls killed a JRT and still exist? THAT is crazy!!!! I don't blame you, I would be terrified.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm sorry, I don't care what his personal situation or his fears, his outburst of language on a public forum was totally uncalled for and offensive to a lot of people who had absolutely nothing to do with the thread.
I feel bad for him in his situation, but I cannot condone his post nor his language. Do you want yours, or other people's, children to access this forum and read that? I think not. I was deeply offended by his blanket statement and his wording.


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm sorry, I don't care what his personal situation or his fears, his outburst of language on a public forum was totally uncalled for and offensive to a lot of people who had absolutely nothing to do with the thread.
> I feel bad for him in his situation, but I cannot condone his post nor his language. Do you want yours, or other people's, children to access this forum and read that? I think not. I was deeply offended by his blanket statement and his wording.


The man was verbally insulted for fearing for the safety of his family, well then you can call me crazy because I live in NYC and fear for the safety of mine everyday. I am not defending his words, they are his, I am however possibly putting forth a reason for his words.

With respect to children reading the posts..........you better not send your kids to school because the reality of it is that they are hearing worse and possibly saying worse.

I will stay away from judging people and just try to put myself in his stituation and how I would react. Don't forget his words on the forum may have been just his reaction to his impossible situatuion. Wrong? yes, understandable? yes, forgivable? yes. 
WagonDog


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

Thank you Jerry, for finding the words I couldn't put together very diplomatically.
Sitting on pins and needles in your own yard, with a young GR, worrying everytime a door or window opened, that your dog even ~might~ be approached/attacked by a breed known to have that propensity (and they do).
Your whole world has changed. And in the UK, no one has the right to bear arms.
A pretty helpless feeling that, I believe, led to his desparation on the forum.
Of course I don't condone the language. But I understand the desparation.

I believe Otis'mum (Wendy) is rictic's (Dave) wife???


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I did not call you, or Dave, or anyone else, crazy. I stated that I found his words objectionable. I did not at any time say I found HIM objectionable, nor did I say anything else negative about him.
There is a big difference between not caring for someone's words and making attacks on them personally. At no time did I attack him, or you. 
I hope that clarifies.





wagondog said:


> The man was verbally insulted for fearing for the safety of his family, well then you can call me crazy because I live in NYC and fear for the safety of mine everyday. I am not defending his words, they are his, I am however possibly putting forth a reason for his words.
> 
> With respect to children reading the posts..........you better not send your kids to school because the reality of it is that they are hearing worse and possibly saying worse.
> 
> ...


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## jnmarr (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks for the reminder Jerry.. I don't agree with the language and understand the reasoning for the week ban... But my heart breaks for him. Until you see one of those dogs attacking your baby , or see the possibility of this happening, it is hard to imagine that horrible helpless feeling. We have seen it and are dealing with it on a daily basis.. I don't post a lot of my thoughts...

I sincerely hope someone is able to reach him in the meanwhile and give him some support. 

Hugs to Harley


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I did not understand then, and do not understand now, how he could have had no recourse with this vicious dog. It's apparently an illegal dog, brought into the complex on the sly, yet there's no recourse for him except to kill it himself with rat poison? 

Makes no sense to me. Maybe someone from the UK can explain this to me


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

Jo, he has to WAIT on recourse. While the dog is chewing on Otis?
He can report, but then fear retaliation. This happens in the states too. He can't carry a weapon or even use a chair or a log as a weapon to protect without recourse. The authorities are slow. He can't afford to move. He stated he lost his job in a post a while back, I believe.
So if his actions get the dog removed, he very well may have to fear the owner himself.
He was desparate and frightened.
Out of line with his response but I think the the 'crazy' accusation pushed him over the edge.


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> I did not call you, or Dave, or anyone else, crazy. I stated that I found his words objectionable. I did not at any time say I found HIM objectionable, nor did I say anything else negative about him.
> There is a big difference between not caring for someone's words and making attacks on them personally. At no time did I attack him, or you.
> I hope that clarifies.


Hotel4Dogs
My reference to "you can call me crazy" was not meant for you, it was meant that anyone can call me crazy for worrying about the safety of my family. I do believe he was referred to as crazy and that was later apologized for.....a very class act. I at no time felt attacked by you nor was he attacked by you. I just needed to state my opinion because I was actively posting to him during the onset of the thread, felt his despair, and came back to the forum today to find him banned. I'm sorry if I upset anyone just had to say what I had to say. And I understand being banned for disrespect is appropriate in most cases.
WagonDog


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## Ruby'smom (Feb 4, 2008)

I believe Dave is worried about complaining to the authorities about this dog as even if they "remove" the dog the owner would still be there and from what has been said he has been in prison so Dave would still have worries for his own safety as well as for Otis and the rest of his family 
in my opinion Dave is very upset at what he sees as a no win situation 
he sees a dangerous dog that he can do nothing about because if he does then he will still get the back lash from the owner and his asociates 
the authorities in this country can be slow to react and then it isnt saying anything would or could be done to prevent anything happening anyway 
I do not agree with some of the language that Dave has used but I do hope he is ok 
I would hate to be where he is right now


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## jnmarr (Mar 7, 2008)

moverking said:


> Jo, he has to WAIT on recourse. While the dog is chewing on Otis?
> He can report, but then fear retaliation. This happens in the states too. He can't carry a weapon or even use a chair or a log as a weapon to protect without recourse. The authorities are slow. He can't afford to move. He stated he lost his job in a post a while back, I believe.
> So if his actions get the dog removed, he very well may have to fear the owner himself.
> He was desparate and frightened.



Exactly! Even here in Florida... We called every time a pit attacks our dogs.. ( thank God they were young and inexperieced and my husband could beat them off ) .. the animal control asks.. " did they attack a human "... well.. nooooo... but they are running loose on the street and attacking my dogs... A/C say they will send someone out.. End of story.. for them any way. I can not express how scary and frustrating this is. One A/C lady advised me to carry a catch pole like she does.. So I suppose I need to carry 2 or 3 as sometimes these dogs are in a pack.. and then when we have them caught in the loop at the end of the pole.. what in Heaven's name are we supposed to do with them? I am totally against the rat poison route.. but just feel his frustration and fear. I don't really have an answer for him, as we haven't figured it out for ourselves.

Those of you that do not have neighbors like this nearby need to be very thankful..


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Some people seem to show more compassion to animals than to people. I don't condone Dave's language, by any means, but the level of fear and frustration certainly makes it more understandable. Particularly when he came to this forum looking for some support/guidance, and instead received armchair psychoanalyzing. 

I hope that he's okay. Losing his brother was hard for him, and he hardly needs to have to deal with fear of losing his puppy, or another family member or friend injured or worse.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

While I understand his concern about the dog. One thing that stood out to me in the thread was in the beginning post #23 he didnt want the responsibility of having the dog taken away and possibly destroyed. And then later in the thread there is talk of poisoning the dog or kiling the dog even though the dog has not done anything but bark and spit. 

Also in the thread he just found out the dog was living there and has not talked to any authorities, kept saying it wouldnt do any good. In fact in post #68 he said he will look at contacting the authorities on Monday, so to me nothing has been done yet. If the guy lied on his app that can be a point for the landlord to use to get the dog out and if Dave contacts the landlord and tells him he is liable if the dog attacks anyone, I think the landlord would do something. And if not then the authorities would if he is an agressive dog. And there may already be something on file. 

If the area is as bad as Dave says the owner may have said "my dog is aggressive" to show himself to be tough. The dog had been out earlier in the day and did nothing but run around having people chase it. If the dog had been so aggressive, I would think there had been an incident then. 

There are avenues that you can go thru like police, landlords and the animal control but killing the dog yourself or poisoning the dog is never the answer. Like JoEllen said if Dave does something to the dog, the consequences done to him and his family might be way worse from the neighbor or his buds. And he could be charged with cruelty to animals. 
We all are hoping that nothing happens to Dave, Otis or his family. And it can be settled without violence from anyone. I think the postings were done out of frustration and being scared but he used language that is not allowed. We dont like banning people or closing threads but sometimes it has to be done especially with bad language.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I guess I just cannot understand this situation then. I live across the street from a dog that is known to attack other animals in the neighborhood but I've been able to keep Daisy safe. I have never contemplated killing the dog, though I will not be sad when it's gone -- **** thing will probably outlive both me and Daisy.

I have no comprehension in this day and age of how a vicious bully breed can be allowed to terrorize if someone is taking action and asking for help, if they are indeed threatened. I truly cannot comprehend that. I have never considered myself to live a sheltered life, but perhaps I do in this respect.

Rictic will be back. He left our forum once before, following a heated discussion on bully breeds I recall. He'll be back again and I will apologize to him personally.


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## mikejr (Nov 2, 2008)

What's wrong with keeping a can of mace on hand? 

If he's running about terrorizing the neighborhood, it must be working for him.


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## ggd (Apr 8, 2009)

My 2 cents.
I read the original thread and I understand his concerns. Once the dog attacks it my be too late but I could not justify poisoning the dog to prevent a possible attack. As much as I love dogs I would not hesitate to kill a dog that was attacking my family including my dogs if I thought it was necessary. I would also have no problem confronting an owner about any animal I believed to be a danger. I do however live in the US where there are more self-defense actions available. I know it must be truly frustration if you will have to wait until the all the red tape can be cut through to solve the problem. It sounds like this could take some time. In the mean time someone could pay the price for the delay.
I don not know this man personally but the threat of poisoning the dog could be just venting. I certainly hope so. I read true fear and desperation in his posts so that can influence the tone. 
As far as the language I hear much worse everyday but the TOS here forbid it so the mods I guess had to do something.
I wish him the best of luck with the situation and hope no one is hurt before it can be resolved.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

His anger, frustration and fear are pretty obvious. And after reading the thread, I can't say that I blame him. I think it probably could have been handled better (here on the forum) but I can't say that I blame him for being angry and frustrated. It really does sound like he's in a no-win situation.

I just hope that, one way or another, something can be done and nobody will have to live in fear of this dog OR his idiotic owner.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

I get why the guy is terrified. I would be if I was in his position. And it is not the fact that the dog is DA, I would not be terrified about that. I would be terrified of the fact that the person holding the leash has no control over his aggressive dog.

The guy warned Rictic that his dog is dog aggressive. That would be okay for me because I understand bully breeds tend to be less dog tolerant than most other breeds. Also, many dogs of all breeds are DA. I would expect that owner to be very vigilant of their dog and take every precaution to prevent their dog from escaping the house.

But this owner does not seem have any control over his animal. The fact that the dog was able to escape and his owners had to chase their dog just goes to show that dog might not have much training, and that if the dog had gotten out once, than it could get out again. From Rictic's description of the owner, it does not seem as though he take precautions. I'd be terrified for my dog's safety, and I'd try to confront the owner about it. I would also start walking my dog with a stick or any other object so as to prepare for the worse.

However, I do think that Rictic is even more paranoid due to the breed. Not only is he scared for his dog's safety, but he is scared for himself, his child, etc etc. I bet if it was any other breed, he would only care about his dog's safety. And the comments '' that dog is a ticking time bomb'' from people here who don't even know the dog is not helping to calm him. Just rubbing salt on a sore area.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I think Rictic has been through much lately and must be very frustrated and overwhelmed. I hope he comes back soon.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahla9999 said:


> I get why the guy is terrified. I would be if I was in his position. And it is not the fact that the dog is DA, I would not be terrified about that. I would be terrified of the fact that the person holding the leash has no control over his aggressive dog.
> 
> The guy warned Rictic that his dog is dog aggressive. That would be okay for me because I understand bully breeds tend to be less dog tolerant than most other breeds. Also, many dogs of all breeds are DA. I would expect that owner to be very vigilant of their dog and take every precaution to prevent their dog from escaping the house.
> 
> ...


 
I don't blame him at all, and that includes being "paranoid" because of the breed. History would dictate that it is a credible "paranoia" vs, say "Oh my gosh! The neighbor has a Poodle! (or Corgi, or Golden...) and I should be very afraid!" By your own admission, you might be the same way were it an Akita. 

I think that given the circumstance, the owner's obvious irresponsibility, his bragging about the dog being aggressive, and not to be forgotten, the fact that he brought this dog to the community ILLEGALLY, Dave is not being "paranoid" but rather understandly and with good reason, afraid.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Marleys mummy said:


> Does anyone from the UK (I know rictic also posts on the UK members page and is friendly with some people on there), maybe have another way to get in touch with him to make sure everything is OK with both him and Otis, maybe an email?



I'm sure you can contact him through his wife who is a member here (otis mummy or something). I know this because the day after he was banned she sent me a scathing PM as if somehow it was my fault that he flew off his rocker. 

I still stand by what I said in his thread that anyone who actually says more than once (not even just a "i'm gonna kill that dog" offhand remark in one post or anything) that he is thinking about ways to kill that dog is disgusting.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

I also just want to say that the title of this thread is exactly how I felt reading rictic's words in his thread. Disturbed. 

I wonder if he had been talking about an aggressive GR on his street and saying he was planning ways to kill it, if people would be in more of an uproar about this. But it's fine apparently since it's a pitbull.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I don't blame him at all, and that includes being "paranoid" because of the breed. History would dictate that it is a credible "paranoia" vs, say "Oh my gosh! The neighbor has a Poodle! (or Corgi, or Golden...) and I should be very afraid!" By your own admission, you might be the same way were it an Akita.
> 
> I think that given the circumstance, the owner's obvious irresponsibility, his bragging about the dog being aggressive, and not to be forgotten, the fact that he brought this dog to the community ILLEGALLY, Dave is not being "paranoid" but rather understandly and with good reason, afraid.


 I don't care whether it be a DA golden, mastiff, poodle, etc. They all can do damage, and being owned by an owner who does not take any precautions, than I'd be absolutely terrified for my dog.

I only said he was being paranoid due to the fact that he believes the dog is plotting the death of his entire family. He does not know the dog, and to what Rictic said, the owner brag about his dog being dog-to-dog aggressive.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

This will just add to those who already think I'm disgusting, I'm sure, but if I were in a situation where I feared for the life of one of my family or one of my dogs, I'd darn well have a plan to protect them if the worst happened, and that would include knowing how I would kill whoever/whatever it was that would harm them. I wouldn't ever want to be in the position to not be able to protect them if need be, and in Rictic's case, the situation is such that he very likely will need to. 

All I can do is pray that it doesn't end up a horrible, uneccessary tragedy, and thank God that I am not in Dave's shoes.


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> This will just add to those who already think I'm disgusting, I'm sure, but if I were in a situation where I feared for the life of one of my family or one of my dogs, I'd darn well have a plan to protect them if the worst happened, and that would include knowing how I would kill whoever/whatever it was that would harm them. I wouldn't ever want to be in the position to not be able to protect them if need be, and in Rictic's case, the situation is such that he very likely will need to.
> 
> All I can do is pray that it doesn't end up a horrible, uneccessary tragedy, and thank God that I am not in Dave's shoes.


PG
Couldn't agree more, you are right on and if I were Rictic I too would have a plan...... dangerous bull terrier, dangerous golden retriever, doesn't matter. Many people are out of touch with the reality of how dangerous a situation RicTic could be dealing with. Could be they are comfortable sitting in their safe and sound stocade fenced yard, or on their deck with their laptop and not having the reality of possibly dealing with a dangerous dog and owner. I wonder how many bull terrier fanciers here have actually watched one rip the entrails from a dog in an unprovoked attack. I hope RicTic and his family are safe in that situation.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> This will just add to those who already think I'm disgusting, I'm sure, but if I were in a situation where I feared for the life of one of my family or one of my dogs, I'd darn well have a plan to protect them if the worst happened, and that would include knowing how I would kill whoever/whatever it was that would harm them. I wouldn't ever want to be in the position to not be able to protect them if need be, and in Rictic's case, the situation is such that he very likely will need to.
> 
> All I can do is pray that it doesn't end up a horrible, uneccessary tragedy, and thank God that I am not in Dave's shoes.


I don't think people were upset with Rictic because he would protect his family and dog by killing the pitbull if it attacked them, but rather that he said he was thinking about just randomly killing the dog, regardless of whether or not it attacked. Premeditated "murder" of a dog is MUCH different than protecting yourself during an attack and putting the dog down.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kdmarsh said:


> I don't think people were upset with Rictic because he would protect his family and dog by killing the pitbull if it attacked them, but rather that he said he was thinking about just randomly killing the dog, regardless of whether or not it attacked. Premeditated "murder" of a dog is MUCH different than protecting yourself during an attack and putting the dog down.


 
Well, I sure missed something, then, because I didn't get that he was thinking about "randomly killing the dog", in fact, he said they'd talked the other neighbor out of poisoning it.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Again, what I don't understand and if someone could please explain this to me ... how is it that rictic has no recourse if this dog is indeed vicious, illegal in the country, and not allowed at his living complex ... and brought in on the sly. I truly TRULY do not understand this.

And I agree, I think all of us would do whatever we need to to protect ourselves, our families, and our pets. That goes without saying, and I'm sure many of us have said as much in our posts on various topics during our time here on GRF. I do wonder though how much of the fear being expressed here is related to fact, and how much is due to the fact that this dog is a pit bull.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be cruel. And I think most people here know me to be kind and sensitive most generally. I just am really stuck on the part that rictic has no other alternative except rat poison. And when it was presented to me that night, at the wee hours of the morning, that this was his only alternative, I really got upset. I've never encountered such a thing on a dog forum before, ever.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Well, I sure missed something, then, because I didn't get that he was thinking about "randomly killing the dog", in fact, he said they'd talked the other neighbor out of poisoning it.



He was outright asked if he planned to kill the dog and his answer was "if we dont get satisfactory responses from the powers that be on monday it is distinct possibility"

I hear no mention of if he hurt his dog or family, or even got near his dog or family. Just if he didn't get the response he wanted from whatever law enforcement. Sounds like premeditated murder of an animal to me for absolutely no reason.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

07-11-2009, 03:11 PM 
rictic








Banned
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: manchester u.k.
Posts: 1,158 


Quote:
Originally Posted by *missmarstar*  
_No offense, but that's kinda creepy._


not a pre emptive strike lol. but if hurts me or mine i swear it is dead.

one neighbour is ready and willing to rat poison it now, but we talked him out of it.

we will give it the weekend and have a word, the crap is still on the grass, after monday we will probably report it to be assessed.

will do it from a phone box so they dont get our number.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't know what he said after this. I hope that no one has to be kind and sensitive in expressing their sympathies to Rictic if this goes badly, or anyone else in a similar situation.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> 07-11-2009, 03:11 PM
> rictic
> 
> 
> ...



And in a later post, said the quote I quoted above stating that if he didn't get the answers he wanted from the report he planned to do on Monday, killing the dog would be a "distinct possibility".


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

And the only sad thing about it would be that whoever eliminates this dog from the community, very likely preventing an injury or death, would probably be charged criminally, instead of the moron who brought the dog into the community ILLEGALLY to begin with, causing fear and taking away any chance for these people to live comfortably and happily in their homes. Maybe even somewhat similarly to how you felt when the nutjob threatened your dog...


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> Again, what I don't understand and if someone could please explain this to me ... how is it that rictic has no recourse if this dog is indeed vicious, illegal in the country, and not allowed at his living complex ... and brought in on the sly. I truly TRULY do not understand this.
> 
> And I agree, I think all of us would do whatever we need to to protect ourselves, our families, and our pets. That goes without saying, and I'm sure many of us have said as much in our posts on various topics during our time here on GRF. I do wonder though how much of the fear being expressed here is related to fact, and how much is due to the fact that this dog is a pit bull.
> 
> I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be cruel. And I think most people here know me to be kind and sensitive most generally. I just am really stuck on the part that rictic has no other alternative except rat poison. And when it was presented to me that night, at the wee hours of the morning, that this was his only alternative, I really got upset. I've never encountered such a thing on a dog forum before, ever.


 
Of course Rictic has alternatives, he can complain to the housing council, who might possibly remove the dog or not, then have to face an angry vindictive ex con who might or might not take revenge. If the dog isnt removed, then all the owner has to do it release the dog in the garden, bloody mess, but he got his revenge. If the council does remove the dog, (and I dont claim to know what that process might be in England) then he might have to face an angry owner who has spent time in prison and might carry a knife... 
All I know for sure is the rules are different in England, the housing rules, dog ownership rules etc. And what I read that night and morning was the pleading for understanding of his fear and terror. Doesn't matter that he was afraid because it was a Pittie, the fact was he was terrified. This is a man who has had a horrific time recently, and needed some understanding, to be allowed to vent. Do I believe he intended to kill the Pit in cold blood, no, I don't. Was he thinking outloud of how he was going to extract revenge if necessary, who knows. I certainly don't know and don't think any of us know either!
His language could have been better, but can any of us say if we were in his position with his level of terror would be any different?


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

Jerry and Laura can add me to the ranks, also.
I really want to emphasize that IF I observed behaviors, in a situation like Dave's, ie the dog at the window snarling and slathering and banging against the glass, had one or more episodes that the dog 'got loose' and owner had no control in rounding him up (yes, I know by Dave's account it happened once), how in the world could I not be proactive about defense of the next possible but plausible event? 

OF COURSE I would at first be infinitely careful of locked doors, careful entries and exits. OF COURSE I would report. (And Dave did before the fellow ever moved in). What if my dogs were in their fenced yard and the aggressive dog got a face or a leg in their mouth through the fence? Could be irreparable damage to my dog in a fraction of a second!
It would also make it easier to dispatch him if a fence separated them. And I most certainly would.

Dave doesn't even have a fence between him and the neighbor. He could be bringing Otis in from a walk (that he had to take him far away to be able to safely do) and going in his door with back turned and be nailed from behind.

This isn't paranoia, this is realism!

Maribeth (nurse and patient advocate of 25 years, Mommy of two, protector of all life forms, all around 'make love not war' persona---but don't threaten what I hold dear.


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## sabby (Apr 23, 2009)

"*one neighbour is ready and willing to rat poison it now, but we talked him out of it."*

This bears repeating.... x100

I read that from the post and have been waiting to see it repeated.
Thanks Pointgold.

_Not going to judge..... just happy I am not in same circumstance._

Gov't housing co-ops can be crazy places...guy just out of prison...no contol over his pet...bragging about his bad ass doggie...

I know it has not happened but the potential in this instance seems likely.
What would some of you do if some crazed animal starting shredding one of your kids or your beloved family pet? Call the police or animal control?
It can be a jungle out there in the real world.

Meh....

Armchair quarterbacks..... cut the guy some slack.


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## Thor0918 (Feb 28, 2008)

I for one feel bad for him. And, I am wondering what happened today. Too bad we won't know. Language was bad, yes, may be in his fear he overstated. But, I feel he's just scared for his family and his pup. And I can understand that.


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

I believe I read in one post from Missmarstar who seems to be an advocate of the Bull Terrier that we here on GRF would not be as proactive in RicTic's defense or understanding his situation if the dog in question was a viscious Golden Retriever.
Most members of GRF could and probably would fend off a Golden Retriever attack, the dog is bred for sporting purposes not for fighting.
Many members if any could repel the attack of a Bull Terrier in a similar situation. I am not speaking about laws, or other things I have no knowledge about I am speaking about genetics plain and simple and a persons absolute right to be scared and defend what they love against the attack of a dog that they most likely will lose to. Do I support preemtive plans for defense?. A resounding YES. If you wait until it happens you lose
BTW...I am not sterotyping Bull Terriers, I know too many that are social animals, I am recognizing their breeding and genetics.
Wagondog


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I would clarify that I would no sooner be afraid of a Bull Terrier than I am of my own dogs. "Bull Terrier" is the "Spuds McKenzie" breed, and are very sweet dogs. I've handled several, and have trusted every one I'lve ever been around.



On the other hand, APBT or other "pit" breeds, I would always be cautious of, particularly when the owner is obviously an irresponsible one.


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> I would clarify that I would no sooner be afraid of a Bull Terrier than I am of my own dogs. "Bull Terrier" is the "Spuds McKenzie" breed, and are very sweet dogs. I've handled several, and have trusted every one I'lve ever been around.
> 
> 
> 
> On the other hand, APBT or other "pit" breeds, I would always be cautious of, particularly when the owner is obviously an irresponsible one.


PG.....my reference was not to the Bull Terrier as you stated are very social dogs, I was referring to the Bull Terrier as they are called in my neck of the woods. My error, but entirely unintentional.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> This will just add to those who already think I'm disgusting, I'm sure, but if I were in a situation where I feared for the life of one of my family or one of my dogs, I'd darn well have a plan to protect them if the worst happened, and that would include knowing how I would kill whoever/whatever it was that would harm them. I wouldn't ever want to be in the position to not be able to protect them if need be, and in Rictic's case, the situation is such that he very likely will need to.
> 
> All I can do is pray that it doesn't end up a horrible, uneccessary tragedy, and thank God that I am not in Dave's shoes.


I absolutely agree. I like to think that I'd be incapable of harming _any_ dog and under 99.9% of circumstances, I would be. However, if I were in his shoes, you're darned right I'd be considering any and all options. I protect what's mine and if anyone (canine or human) would pose a very real, serious threat to what's mine, god help them. I would prefer to deal with it through the proper channels, in a humane way, but if that weren't an option and I were backed into a corner, like I said - I'd consider all options.

And for the record, yes - that would apply whether the dog happens to be a "pit bull", a GSD, a Golden or any other breed.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I was hoping he could solve his problem by going through the proper channels. 

Would I defend my dogs if they were being attacked? You better believe it. I would do everything I could to avoid such a situation, too. I did strike a cat once who was attacking my male cat. I have never seen or heard such a fight in my life. The "other" cat actually tried to enter our home as Buster tried to escape. I picked up a long stick that was next to my front stairs and tried to break the fight up by using it. I could have easily killed the cat, but I didn't have it in me. I even hit poor Buster once. It was not a fun situation to be in.

My Shadow (A Golden Retriever) is growly when he first meets "new" dogs and I probably am making the issue a bigger problem by not having him meet new dogs in a controlled environment, but I would never put another dog in that situation.

I think the language used and directed towards a few members was what was seen as inappropriate on a public forum. Do I use it in real life? Yup! I very seldom direct it towards other people and don't use the words often. It can be a great release...

Bully breeds can be frightening. I use great care when I don't know the dog or it's owner. In fact, I posted about my encounter with a stray and I would not get out of my car until there was great distance between us. I think the dog was very friendly, but I wasn't going to take any chances. My nephew owns a mix and she is the greatest dog. In fact, she's more friendly than Shadow is. My friend had a Pit and she let people break into her home. 

I would be devasted to hear Otis or anyone in his family was injured or worse.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

What I still don't get... is that if it was in fact a viscious, scary dog who was going to for sure eat him, his family and his dog..... it would likely have some sort of bite history... which would likely have resulted in the dog being confiscated by the dog warden.

I think his general dislike of Pit Bulls is feeding what almost come across as hysteria. He said he went to talk to the neighbor and the neighbor had the dog on a chain and the dog just stood there and looked at him. That doesn't sound like a crazed dog. Also, when the dog got out and was running around, that sounds like an untrained dog, not a crazed killer. Had the dog intended to hurt something, it had a chance when it was loose. As for the barking madly out the window at other dogs... plenty of GRs here on the forum do that. 

I'm not saying the Pit Bull is fine. Maybe it does have issues, and sure he should be careful. But getting so worked up that you feel the need to fly off the handle and shout (type) vulgar obsceneties at people on a public form - after publicly admitting to considering trying to kill a dog -- is simply uncalled for.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I wonder where this dog was while his owner was waiting for him or her? It may be that it was in quarantine or another such location and there is a history on this dog. I wish I knew. Too many unanswered questions.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Tahla9999 said:


> I get why the guy is terrified. I would be if I was in his position. And it is not the fact that the dog is DA, I would not be terrified about that. I would be terrified of the fact that the person holding the leash has no control over his aggressive dog.


This owner seems to take great pride in the fact that his dog is aggressive. And I agree - that would scare me more than the dog itself would. To a large degree, I think a dog is only as dangerous as the hands its in. And this dog is quite clearly NOT in good hands.

I've been on the other side of this issue. One of my GSDs was, by all definitions, a vicious dog. My neighbors hated him and I'm pretty sure they imagined his demise on more than once occasion. Until they got to know me a little better and saw that we took every precaution _imagineable_. Once they saw that and realized that he didn't pose a threat, everything was fine. But I can't imagine what they would have lived through had I gone around BRAGGING about how vicious he was, let him get loose, etc! I couldn't have blamed them for anything they may have done, had that been the case.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Sorry - it double-posted.


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## rosemary (Jul 7, 2007)

missmarstar said:


> I'm sure you can contact him through his wife who is a member here (otis mummy or something). I know this because the day after he was banned she sent me a scathing PM as if somehow it was my fault that he flew off his rocker.
> 
> I still stand by what I said in his thread that anyone who actually says more than once (not even just a "i'm gonna kill that dog" offhand remark in one post or anything) that he is thinking about ways to kill that dog is disgusting.


sure it was otis mummy and not rictic sent the email cos a few did question wether he would start to post on his wifes


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

wagondog said:


> I believe I read in one post from Missmarstar who seems to be an advocate of the Bull Terrier that we here on GRF would not be as proactive in RicTic's defense or understanding his situation if the dog in question was a viscious Golden Retriever.



I'm not an "advocate of the Bull Terrior" or pit bull or any other bully breed dog. I don't know what I ever said that made you think that. I am however against violence towards any animal, especially one that has done nothing wrong except be a pitbull which from previous posts on this forum is obvious the rictic has a serious problem with.

I don't care either way about pitbulls honestly. I would never own one and yes, sometimes they scare me if I'm out walking with my dogs and see one barking at us from their yard. There are countless of them, and other bully breeds, in my neighborhood... have I ever thought about killing one even though they scare me? Uhh no. Did I plot or carry out the death of the Rottweiler that attacked me and my dog last year? No.. but I reported it to the proper authorities and let them handle the situation, which is exactly what I suggested rictic do in his thread.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

rosemary said:


> sure it was otis mummy and not rictic sent the email cos a few did question wether he would start to post on his wifes



It could have been I suppose, I don't know.. it was all in caps and very difficult to even read. Basically read like the ravings of a deranged lunatic to me.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

wagondog said:


> PG.....my reference was not to the Bull Terrier as you stated are very social dogs, I was referring to the Bull Terrier as they are called in my neck of the woods. My error, but entirely unintentional.


I did figure that, but wanted to clarify for the rest of the forum.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> What I still don't get... is that if it was in fact a viscious, scary dog who was going to for sure eat him, his family and his dog..... it would likely have some sort of bite history... which would likely have resulted in the dog being confiscated by the dog warden.
> 
> I think his general dislike of Pit Bulls is feeding what almost come across as hysteria. He said he went to talk to the neighbor and the neighbor had the dog on a chain and the dog just stood there and looked at him. That doesn't sound like a crazed dog. Also, when the dog got out and was running around, that sounds like an untrained dog, not a crazed killer. Had the dog intended to hurt something, it had a chance when it was loose. As for the barking madly out the window at other dogs... plenty of GRs here on the forum do that.
> 
> I'm not saying the Pit Bull is fine. Maybe it does have issues, and sure he should be careful. But getting so worked up that you feel the need to fly off the handle and shout (type) vulgar obsceneties at people on a public form - after publicly admitting to considering trying to kill a dog -- is simply uncalled for.


 
Unfortunately, until the first bite, there is no bite history.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

wagondog said:


> I believe I read in one post from Missmarstar who seems to be an advocate of the Bull Terrier that we here on GRF would not be as proactive in RicTic's defense or understanding his situation if the dog in question was a viscious Golden Retriever.
> Most members of GRF could and probably would fend off a Golden Retriever attack, the dog is bred for sporting purposes not for fighting.
> Many members if any could repel the attack of a Bull Terrier in a similar situation. I am not speaking about laws, or other things I have no knowledge about I am speaking about genetics plain and simple and a persons absolute right to be scared and defend what they love against the attack of a dog that they most likely will lose to. Do I support preemtive plans for defense?. A resounding YES. If you wait until it happens you lose
> BTW...I am not sterotyping Bull Terriers, I know too many that are social animals, I am recognizing their breeding and genetics.
> Wagondog


You are right. It is hard to fight a bulldog off, but it isn't impossible. A woman had to break up a fight between three pit bulls by herself and she was able to do it. One piece of advice is to keep your cool and not scream, that just makes it worse. 

Another thing is, while it is hard to separate two bulldogs, you are less likely to get bitten during a pit bull fight than other breeds fighting. Others breeds tend to slash out while the bulldog is only focus on their target. They bite and hold, which is an advantage. Owners of multiple pit bulls keep break sticks to pry the mouth open. Others used a choking method. If a bulldog has a hold on your dog, choking it will force them to release. 

Just some advice to Rictic if the worse happens.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Unfortunately, until the first bite, there is no bite history.



And until the first murder, someone is not considered a murderer either. What is the relevance? What are you defending? His right to preemptively kill this dog?

If the dog is illegal he has every right as a citizen to report it to the authorities and should do so if he's so concerned about this supposedly vicious dog in his neighborhood.

Just because someone on my street chooses to have a typically dog aggressive dog, doesn't give me the right to do anything to it just because I don't like it or want it on my street. If they are illegal where he lives, well then the answer to get rid of it seems obvious. And it does not include him or anyone in his neighborhood killing the dog.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

missmarstar said:


> And until the first murder, someone is not considered a murderer either. What is the relevance? What are you defending? His right to preemptively kill this dog?
> 
> If the dog is illegal he has every right as a citizen to report it to the authorities and should do so if he's so concerned about this supposedly vicious dog in his neighborhood.


Please do not put words into my mouth, or assume that I mean anything, or am defending anything, other than what I have clearly said.

The authorities have been notified. Hopefully they do something, or, not do something too slowly.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

That's what I was going to say ... are we encouraging him to feel okay about killing a dog that possibly has no bite history? Can we just go out now and kill any dog that scares us?

Or is it just that we can kill any pit bull that scares us? If that's the case, I vote in favor of breed specific legislation, it's much kinder than rat poison.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Please do not put words into my mouth, or assume that I mean anything, or am defending anything, other than what I have clearly said.
> 
> The authorities have been notified. Hopefully they do something, or, not do something too slowly.



I didn't put any words in your mouth. If you notice, they were questions, as I was just trying to understand what your point was. Yes, that dog is a breed of dog that is typically "scary" and unnerving to have in the neighborhood close to your dogs and family.. but the fact remains this dog has done nothing at this point except what, bark at people out its window? My dogs do that too.

And yes I hope the authorities do something quickly, before rictic decides to take this innocent dog's life in his own hands.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

missmarstar said:


> I didn't put any words in your mouth. If you notice, they were questions, as I was just trying to understand what your point was. Yes, that dog is a breed of dog that is typically "scary" and unnerving to have in the neighborhood close to your dogs and family.. but the fact remains this dog has done nothing at this point except what, bark at people out its window? My dogs do that too.
> 
> And yes I hope the authorities do something quickly, before rictic decides to take this innocent dog's life in his own hands.


 
And where we part ways is that I hope that the authorities do something quickly before that dog takes an innocent Otis', or an innocent child's, life.
People first.

And I believe that is pretty clear, and hopefully my point is understood.


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## mary624 (Jul 11, 2009)

Hi, I'm brand new in this forum. I'm a mom with a large family including my precious furbabies, Toby(my 3 yr old Golden) and Tasha (white American Shepherd, 8 month old puppy). I had to butt in here as I had a VERY scary run in with a PB just yesterday.

I have to admit, I really already dislike most bully breeds, as they are called, but I REALLY hate pitbulls, ie: American bull dogs...I think the AKC should stop recognizing them as a breed altogether and I honestly wonder at the sanity of their owners. They were bred to hunt bears, and they are capable of taking down horses. They are very dangerous animals if not handled properly.

So,yesterday I had taken Toby and Tasha to the Animal clinic for their yearly and there was a pitbull there. He was 'smaller'/shorter then Toby, but this beast had to have out weighed him by at least 20 pounds...he was dense muscle...and with very scary looking wild eyes. Most of us who where there before she showed up were very nervous with him there. He just looked very unsafe, and one of the other customers had a small puppy and another had a two year old child as well, but it was MY Tasha he focused in on and he lunged at her. Well, Tasha just freaked out and broke from her harness and ran like greased lightening, while Toby tried to step in and looked to take the brute on so I was torn between trying to stop Toby and going to catch Tasha who was running right into the parking lot and traffic (both of whom until this incident were sitting happily letting the kids pet them). Luckily the owner was able to stop her pitbull, just barely. The Owners of the clinic told her to keep her dog out in the car till it was her turn, but she looked like she would have tried to stay and didn't really 'get' why she was being asked to leave.

It was very frightening.

I completely understadn why this man was getting so frightened. Pitbull owners just are so clueless, and the law just turns a blind eye. If something HAD happened, that dog could easily have killed tasha, or if Toby got entangled with him, he would have put up afight, I know, but Toby was no match for that dog. After all was said and done, the police would have been useless if a child or dog had been killed.
mary


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> That's what I was going to say ... are we encouraging him to feel okay about killing a dog that possibly has no bite history? Can we just go out now and kill any dog that scares us?
> 
> Or is it just that we can kill any pit bull that scares us? If that's the case, I vote in favor of breed specific legislation, it's much kinder than rat poison.


Jo Ellen
I can only speak for myself in that I did encourage the man to take all necessary actions to prevent possible danger to his family. That includes first and foremost reporting to the proper authorities but did not preclude dealing with the dog if necessary but not preemtively. He came to us for guidance and maybe an ear to listen. He is in a situation that simply reporting the dog may get his house burned down. In my opinion we were more concerned about the way he said it than his very serious and dangerous situation. I wish him well and that he is safe with his family and Otis.
Wagondog


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> And where we part ways is that I hope that the authorities do something quickly before that dog takes an innocent Otis', or an innocent child's, life.
> People first.



By that logic, then maybe all pitbulls and bully breeds should be outlawed or just be put down immediately regardless of whether they have actually harmed any person or animal yet, just for the mere fact that they are a bully breed and COULD hurt someone or someone's pet.

Wait, isn't that sort of along the lines of PETA's stance too.. breed specific legistlation?


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

mary624 said:


> Hi, I'm brand new in this forum. I'm a mom with a large family including my precious furbabies, Toby(my 3 yr old Golden) and Tasha (white American Shepherd, 8 month old puppy). I had to butt in here as I had a VERY scary run in with a PB just yesterday.
> 
> I have to admit, I really already dislike most bully breeds, as they are called, but I REALLY hate pitbulls, ie: American bull dogs...I think the AKC should stop recognizing them as a breed altogether and I honestly wonder at the sanity of their owners. They were bred to hunt bears, and they are capable of taking down horses. They are very dangerous animals if not handled properly.
> 
> ...


 
I don't know if the trainers here would agree, but having had my two in a class with a Pit that "really" needed training, we were all taught to not let any of the dogs stare. If one was to even look at each other we were to "redirect" the dogs attention. Amazingly, it worked.


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## Noey (Feb 26, 2009)

I'm not even going to go back and read, from what I gather Otis's dad has been removed for a week. That's sad. 

I understood his concerns and think he was venting and I did not think in any way he was going to harm another animal...I think he was venting his frustrations to a group of people he thought understood, and most did. I'm not going back and looking at language, I'm not going back and reading everything on all the pages in this thread. 

I hope Otis and his dad are able to work things out with the owner of the dog and or the proper people, he can have an easier time. I think sometimes people like to ruffle feathers on this board, it's out choice to respond. 

I will say a barking dog in a window can say a lot about a dog based on stance, bark, aggressive nature, etc. I’ve seen an aggressive dog go through a window to get what it wanted on the other side…which happened to be me as a child on a bike. And it does not have to be a pitt, it can be any breed. I think Otis's dad probably is seeing a very aggressive animal...not just a barking dog...and his instincts are telling him this animal is a danger. I don't think it's just "barking." It's all interpretive and he is the person facing condition on his end he was trying to express his concerns and fear for Otis. 

His heart is with his Otis, I give him credit for that and that's how I took it. It’s too bad what ever got out of control got out of control with language, I like Otis and his dad.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Reporting the dog could get his house burned down...would killing the dog be any safer for him?


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> Reporting the dog could get his house burned down...would killing the dog be any safer for him?


Time to walk the dog! :wavey:


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

missmarstar said:


> By that logic, then maybe all pitbulls and bully breeds should be outlawed or just be put down immediately regardless of whether they have actually harmed any person or animal yet, just for the mere fact that they are a bully breed and COULD hurt someone or someone's pet.
> 
> Wait, isn't that sort of along the lines of PETA's stance too.. breed specific legistlation?


I'm concerned about _this individual dog, his behavior, his owner's lack of common sense and responsibility, and the indiviudal situation. _I'd feel the same no matter the breed, frankly. Your PETA bait is wasted on me, because anyone on this forum knows my stand on that organization.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I think what most people are failing to realize here is that NONE of us know the real situation. Rictic could be overreacting because of his dislike for bully breeds, or he could have a genuinely serious situation on his hands. I think it's sort of unnecessary for all of us to get involved in a heated argument about something we really don't know anything about. It would be very easy for me to make a snap judgement about Rictic because of what he's posted regarding his feelings for bully breeds in the past, but since I have no idea what's really going on in this situation, it would be unfair of me to do so. I hope the best for Rictic and Otis, and I sincerely hope that he doesn't do anything he'll regret.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

kdmarsh said:


> I think what most people are failing to realize here is that NONE of us know the real situation. Rictic could be overreacting because of his dislike for bully breeds, or he could have a genuinely serious situation on his hands. I think it's sort of unnecessary for all of us to get involved in a heated argument about something we really don't know anything about. It would be very easy for me to make a snap judgement about Rictic because of what he's posted regarding his feelings for bully breeds in the past, but since I have no idea what's really going on in this situation, it would be unfair of me to do so. I hope the best for Rictic and Otis, and I sincerely hope that he doesn't do anything he'll regret.


Yes, you are absolutely right. Whether he is over-reacting in his fear of this dog, or not, its his business and he can contact the authorities if he likes to take care of the situation or not. 

What I took personal offense to, and the reason I even got involved in the thread, was his comments that he was planning how to kill the dog, regardless of whether the dog actually did anything to his or not. I really can't believe I am one of the few here that was actually somewhat disgusted with those comments. 

That's the last I'll say about this topic.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

missmarstar said:


> Yes, you are absolutely right. Whether he is over-reacting in his fear of this dog, or not, its his business and he can contact the authorities if he likes to take care of the situation or not.
> 
> What I took personal offense to, and the reason I even got involved in the thread, was his comments that he was planning how to kill the dog, regardless of whether the dog actually did anything to his or not. I really can't believe I am one of the few here that was actually somewhat disgusted with those comments.
> 
> That's the last I'll say about this topic.


No, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I thought those comments were unnecessary. I've got neighbors that raise white german shepherds to be guard dogs, and years ago one jumped over the wooden fence they have and bit my neighbor in the leg. Am I scared of those dogs every time I walk by their house? Of course! Am I going to kill them? No. But if one of them jumped over the fence and tried to attack me or Flora, you bet I would try my damndest to protect myself.

Anyhow, I'm rambling and getting involved in this when I didn't want to. I'm so easy to get sucked into things. : I wish Rictic the best.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Yikes! I've been around "trained" guard dogs and they never would have bitten unless given the command. I suppose it depends on how they're trained and what they are trained for. Double yikes!


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Kimm said:


> Yikes! I've been around "trained" guard dogs and they never would have bitten unless given the command. I suppose it depends on how they're trained and what they are trained for. Double yikes!


Yeah, this family is white trash (forgive my slur). Everyone knows that the father physically abused his youngest son, and we're all pretty darn sure his idea of "training" dogs consists of abusing them as well. It's an unfortunate situation and we've called the cops and animal control on them MANY times for the sake of the dogs, but not much is ever done.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

kdmarsh said:


> Yeah, this family is white trash (forgive my slur). Everyone knows that the father physically abused his youngest son, and we're all pretty darn sure his idea of "training" dogs consists of abusing them as well. It's an unfortunate situation and we've called the cops and animal control on them MANY times for the sake of the dogs, but not much is ever done.


What a sad situation. My sister has always had GSD's. The GSD she has now is white.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Kimm said:


> What a sad situation. My sister has always had GSD's. The GSD she has now is white.


They used to have dobies, but moved on to GSDs. They're really pretty dogs, but the two that I have seen recently were COMPLETELY untrained. I was walking Flora and they ran into the street after her even when their owner was yelling at them to come back. Fortunately they didn't do anything, but I got very nervous.


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## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

Okay, I really have to chime in here. I did not read all the posts on this thread, so I apologize if what I'm to say is redundant. I did read the "infamous" thread referred to, however.

I just wonder how many folks here have had their dog viciously attacked by another. My brother, who lives in Naples, FL had a springer spaniel who was VICIOUSLY attacked by a pit bull. Roxie's throat was all but ripped from her body. They did do surgery to the tune of about $5,000 which the owner of the attack dog paid for.

This happened on a walk. A simple walk. I don't care if Rictic's neighbor's dog was just running around in the common garden area loose. It sounds to me like there wasn't anything there for it to attack, so we don't know what it would have done. Not that it would have attacked, but all it takes is one child or adult for that matter to wander out the back door to what was a safe place for the dog to attack. It's bred in them. I'm sorry. And, this definately looks like a pit bull.

All that said, I was attacked by a golden retriever and bit on the arm. Duke and I were on our morning run years ago and were on the other side of the street from this dog's house and it ran after me and attacked me. Then it turned on Duke who at the time was on a leash. I kicked and screamed and kicked and the owner came out and said something to the lame effect of "he just knows you're scared of him. If you don't act scared, he will leave you alone." WHAT? Of course there is some truth to that, but I was just bit for crying out loud!

So, an attack - unprovoked - can come from any breed of dog, but this dog looks plain mean. Rictic was reaching out for some solice and advice. I've got to tell you that for about a year and a half after my attack, I carried pepper spray but still my heart would race and I would break out in a sweat when a dog would bark at us or run up to us. And, for the record, my son who is a cop says that pepper spray really isn't all that effective as if there's the least bit of breeze it could get in your own dog's eyes instead and you have to be within inches for it to do anything if you're lucky enough to have the right conditions.

Is he supposed to wait for an attack to happen? Not that killing the dog is exactly the right answer, but if nothing else, it sounds like this dog has picked up the persona of it's owner. Or visa versa. A dog like that with those powerful jaws could rip a child before anyone could stop it. Or a dog, or cat or anything!

What I heard is that what was once a quiet peaceful place has now turned into a nightmare for Rictic and his neighbors. That's very sad.

In regards to the golden that bit me, I went to the humane society and lodged a complaint after it repeatedly chased us and had Duke on his back. I couldn't even walk him down our street - I had to drive somewhere. I warned her and warned her and although I wasn't bit again, he kept after my baby Duke. She got a warning, called me and left a very nasty message and they built a fence.

I don't know what they do in the UK, but I agree with Rictic - why should he be run out of his home? We don't know this neighbor but it sounds like he's concerned about retaliation. I hope in retrospect he's done something within the boundary of their own system and that all is well and this neighbor is gone.

There! Now I feel better anyway. :wave:


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## mary624 (Jul 11, 2009)

_



All that said, I was attacked by a golden retriever and bit on the arm. Duke and I were on our morning run years ago and were on the other side of the street from this dog's house and it ran after me and attacked me. Then it turned on Duke who at the time was on a leash. I kicked and screamed and kicked and the owner came out and said something to the lame effect of "he just knows you're scared of him. If you don't act scared, he will leave you alone." WHAT? Of course there is some truth to that, but I was just bit for crying out loud

Click to expand...

_The thing is with PB's is they don't just bite when they get unhinged, they go for the kill. If that golden had been an unhinged pit instead of a golden, you would have had a very different and much sadder story to tell.
Just google any breed with the word 'bite or maul...And true, you will find some maulings with almost every breed, even Chihuahua's have been known to kill a baby, but pit bulls have more hits with maulings then any other breed.

I don't advocate forcefully euthanizing them. That would be cruel to those owners that do take care with them. But, because they can be a weapon, I do think they should be fazed out as a breed, People owning a pit should be required to have a lisense to own one, laws to enforce mandatory neutering when they are brought in for shots (encouraged with a tax break for vets that nueter at a basic price) large fines for any and all attacks the dogs are responsible for to the owners, and the AKC should no longer recognize them as an official dog breed. It would take years, but it can be done.

It's frustrating the AKC recognises THEM, but not White American Shepherds...which next to Goldens, are the most beautiful breed in the world.
just my thoughts on the subject.
mary


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

Keep.... mouth.... shut!:--keep_silent: Okay can't.

mary624, American Pit Bull Terriers aren't recognize as a breed in the AKC! I believe you are talking about the American Staffordshire Terrier. Both breeds are cousins, but were bred for a different purpose in mind. The APBT was bred as a fighting dog, while the American Staffordshire was bred for show. They do still have similar traits.

I would not be surprise if this was merely just a breed issue( not saying that it is, but wouldn't be surprise if it was). Pit Bulls aren't treated like dogs, they are treated as monsters. If any other breed bark at another dog from the window, it is seen as normal. If a pit bull does it, the dog is plotting to kill the entire family. Just like Duke's Mom said '' the dog looks mean.'' 

And PG, who are you kidding. If it was any other breed, I doubt you would react the same way.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Unfortunately I doubt we will ever know what happens in this situation because I don't think Dave will come back to the board.

I wish that he was shown more understanding, he has a legitimate reason to be fearful of this dog - the owner has already told him it is aggressive, and good reason to fear the owner too. How bad will you feel if we do find out at some point that Otis, Dave, his wife or the children have been attacked by this dog?


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

mylissyk said:


> Unfortunately I doubt we will ever know what happens in this situation because I don't think Dave will come back to the board.
> 
> I wish that he was shown more understanding, he has a legitimate reason to be fearful of this dog - the owner has already told him it is aggressive, and good reason to fear the owner too. How bad will you feel if we do find out at some point that Otis, Dave, his wife or the children have been attacked by this dog?


I guess that is to me. The owner said the dog was DA, not HA. The dog has yet to show that it is HA. And since I have yet to hear any signs that this dog is aggressive to people, than why should I assume that? Why is it okay for many of you to assume that the dog is a people killer, but it isn't okay for me to assume it is not?

If he does come here and say the dog has in fact attacked them, than that is the truth. Right now, ALL of us is just speculating.


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## rosemary (Jul 7, 2007)

Kimm said:


> Yikes! I've been around "trained" guard dogs and they never would have bitten unless given the command. I suppose it depends on how they're trained and what they are trained for. Double yikes!


i used arnie as a trained gaurd dog,he was trained to pin people in the corner most of the people i worked with thought a golden as a gaurd dog was hilarious the only answer i had to that was are you a threat some wiseass decided that he would take us both on one night and arnie had a munch on a certain part of a mans anatomy that shalln remain nameless we came off shift an hour later he was runninning round the local park with a dozen kids having a fine old time even now say the word and he will still react


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

mylissyk said:


> Unfortunately I doubt we will ever know what happens in this situation because I don't think Dave will come back to the board.
> 
> I wish that he was shown more understanding, he has a legitimate reason to be fearful of this dog - the owner has already told him it is aggressive, and good reason to fear the owner too. How bad will you feel if we do find out at some point that Otis, Dave, his wife or the children have been attacked by this dog?


 He'll be back. He threatened to leave once before, and came back.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahla9999 said:


> Keep.... mouth.... shut!:--keep_silent: Okay can't.
> 
> mary624, American Pit Bull Terriers aren't recognize as a breed in the AKC! I believe you are talking about the American Staffordshire Terrier. Both breeds are cousins, but were bred for a different purpose in mind. The APBT was bred as a fighting dog, while the American Staffordshire was bred for show. They do still have similar traits.
> 
> ...


 
Do not dare to presume that you know what I am thinking - I SAY WHAT I AM THINKING, and YES, with a situation like this one I would feel exactly the same way no matter the breed. And a Golden that attacks such as the way that I have read about here in this thread posesses an absolutely INCORRECT TEMPERAMENT and while I am sure there are many who would cry foul and make excuses for it - call a trainer, a behaviorist, give it a chance, etc etc, it is what it is, and that is incorrect. Period.
I am sick to death of people making excuses for dangerous dogs NO MATTER THE BREED.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

mary624 said:


> The thing is with PB's is they don't just bite when they get unhinged, they go for the kill. If that golden had been an unhinged pit instead of a golden, you would have had a very different and much sadder story to tell.
> Just google any breed with the word 'bite or maul...And true, you will find some maulings with almost every breed, even Chihuahua's have been known to kill a baby, but pit bulls have more hits with maulings then any other breed.
> 
> I don't advocate forcefully euthanizing them. That would be cruel to those owners that do take care with them. But, because they can be a weapon, I do think they should be fazed out as a breed, People owning a pit should be required to have a lisense to own one, laws to enforce mandatory neutering when they are brought in for shots (encouraged with a tax break for vets that nueter at a basic price) large fines for any and all attacks the dogs are responsible for to the owners, and the AKC should no longer recognize them as an official dog breed. It would take years, but it can be done.
> ...


 
To clarify, white GSD's can be registered, but white is a disqualifying color.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

rosemary said:


> i used arnie as a trained gaurd dog,he was trained to pin people in the corner most of the people i worked with thought a golden as a gaurd dog was hilarious the only answer i had to that was are you a threat some wiseass decided that he would take us both on one night and arnie had a munch on a certain part of a mans anatomy that shalln remain nameless we came off shift an hour later he was runninning round the local park with a dozen kids having a fine old time even now say the word and he will still react


The "word." Very important. I was friendly with a trained guard dog. I loved him. He was owned by the owner of a store I worked at. He was a beautiful Dobie. I used to walk him around the local mall before it was closed in, late at night, very late at night. The mall and store were under renovation, so late nights it was. Let me tell you. When walking him, people would clear a path! They were afraid of him, not due to his actions or reactions, because he was a very calm boy when not asked to work, but because he was a Dobie. A majestic Dobie.

My son was very young and used to play with him. I did see the "trained" side of him one night after the store gates went down and he heard a noise at the front of the store and reacted. I thought, "Wow!" Is that Magic? Yup, my beautiful Magic. Had I not known him I would have took of like a bolt of lightening. 

Magic's attack word is the word I chose to use when my kids were very young. It was the word they had to hear if anyone but me was to pick them up from school, camp, anywhere unexpectedly. Even a police officer. That word is near and dear to my heart. It reminds me of Magic who is long gone. 

Rictic has a right to be afraid. Would I be afraid? Yes. I also think those of us who are not there, living in his situation, and not knowing first hand what we are reading is all true, also have a right to be concerned about the talk of killing this dog. It's a very difficult place for him to be in. I am glad it is not me. That's for darn sure.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I just want to reiterate, the only thing that troubled me about rictic's post was that he was strongly insinuating that he planned to kill the dog with rat poison ... that is what I was responding to when I posted that he was crazy.  And I do believe it is! He said he lives in a community with criminals and guns and dogs used as weapons with no support from proper authoritiues -- that's what he was saying that night. I can't believe that's altogether true but mostly I don't believe that killing this dog in this type of environment wouldn't cause him even more trouble...can you imagine? 

And if he does indeed live in this type of situation with these types of people ... why on earth wouldn't we encourage him to move? It's DANGEROUS! I wouldn't want to live like that, would you??? With no support or protection from the authorities? Talk about a tragedy waiting to happen! 

All that said, I still don't believe that rictic is not able to get help from his management or the authorities if this dog is indeed vicious and threatening the lives of those in the complex. He said this dog is illegal, that the owners aren't even allowed to have this dog ... he's got other options besides rat poison. 

Now I think everyone is responding to their own fears regarding the pit bull, and not the actual facts of this situation. The bottom line is we can't go around killing dogs just because we're scared of them, and not with rat poison, good GOD. We have laws in place to live as civilized communities, we must work within those laws, and work to effect change where needed.

Rat poison is NOT the answer!!


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## Sophie's slave (Jul 1, 2007)

I think that rictic has every right to be concerned for himself, his family and Otis. But where concern gets out of control and becomes a threat, then it has crossed the line. And while I agree that he should be vigilent and file a report with the authorities, I absolutely do not agree with him threatening to kill that dog. Sorry. Of course I am not in his situation and my experience with bully breeds has been a positive one (Sophie's best friend in Hawaii is an AmStaff), so there's that. 

And the language he used was in clear violation of Joe's rules, so the ban was not out of line, IMO. Frankly, after reading some of his other posts, maybe he could use a breather. JMHO.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Kimm said:


> Yikes! I've been around "trained" guard dogs and they never would have bitten unless given the command. I suppose it depends on how they're trained and what they are trained for. Double yikes!


Yep, not to get too far off-topic, but you're absolutely right about that. I imagine it's the same for just about any breed that can trained to protect, but I only _personally_ know of GSDs who have been trained, like kdmarsh mentioned.

A GSD who has truly been "trained" for protection will more often than not appear very calm and aloof to strangers. A GSD who takes it upon himself may be protect_ive_ (as most are, by nature) but they are not "trained."

We ran into a guy at Petsmart a couple months ago who had a beautiful bi-color female with him. Real sweetheart of a dog. This guy was trying to sell me one of the sable pups he had left, telling me that his father was a HUGE sable that he only saw from a distance. Said he was a trained protection dog so he couldn't get near him. Ugh! :doh: Needless to say, had I been in the market for a pup, I wouldn't have been interested in his!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Just to clarify, my post was to a collective "you", not directed to anyone in particular, and it is not assuming anything when the owner of the dog tells you it is aggressive, I would take that as gospel truth.

Jo Ellen, Dave said they talked a neighbor _out_ of poisoning the dog with rat poison.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Later on in the thread, he was saying that no one was going to help him and killing the dog was a "distinct possibility." That's what I was responding to. I was fine with him up until the point he began focusing on killing the dog.

I admit I should have been kinder to him but it was difficult not to respond emotionally to what he was talking about doing.


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## marleysmummy (Jul 11, 2008)

Did we ever find out what type of dog his neighbour had?

I believe the authorities in the UK take dangerous dogs very seriously, where the owner is also punished, rather than just the dog being killed, lets face it, I'd put most of the blame on the owner so going through the proper channels would ensure he is accountable for what he did. 

Also from what I can understand about Daves home, it is owned by the local authorities, so lying to get a home from them is also taken pretty seriously too, but unless these things are reported then how can the authorities know and deal with the situation.

Also as I think Dave and a few of his neighbours share some common areas of the building, these are deemed as public areas - so the dog being out of control in these areas is not allowed.

I would also like to share Marleys experience with an American staffordshire.......


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Marleys mummy said:


> Did we ever find out what type of dog his neighbour had?
> 
> I believe the authorities in the UK take dangerous dogs very seriously, where the owner is also punished, rather than just the dog being killed, lets face it, I'd put most of the blame on the owner so going through the proper channels would ensure he is accountable for what he did.
> 
> ...


I think the only thing he knows for sure is, it is a pit bull type, and the owner told him it was aggressive and he was bragging about that.

My cousin has raised and lived with AmStaffs all his adult life, has raised his son with them. They are beautiful dogs, and when raised correctly great family dogs.


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## lkcoope (Mar 9, 2008)

magiclover said:


> This is a very difficult situation for Dave and his family. I know he is in fear for his family and for Otis. That being said, this is a public forum and everyone should be held to certain standards in regards to language or insult of a particular group of people. I am praying for a positive outcome for everyone's safety and will welcome Dave back when he is able to return.


I agree. It's sad.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

Just read thru this thread and the original thread. I think rictic had every right to be concerned about the dog. Where he went off the track is when he hinted that he would preemptively kill the dog with rat poison before an actual incident occurred. I agree with his feeling the dog is dangerous, but there had to be a different way of dealing with this situation. I think the stress of worrying about this dog must have been very hard to deal with, I really sympathize with him, but threatening to kill the dog was not the way to go. I sincerely hope this works out for him and he keeps his family safe. Very scary situation to deal with.


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## mikejr (Nov 2, 2008)

I might be missing the point of the thread completely, as I haven't read it from beginning to end but I'm going to go out on a limb.

Rictic's situation smells of a troll. He's got plenty of posts damning bully breeds, and then he comes here to stir it up under the premise of his Golden and himself under siege by the local [insert bully breed here].

If I were under the same situation, I doubt I'd air my thoughts on a forum, as I'd be busy resolving the problem at hand. 

We can all armchair quarterback the situation based on the information we have, and I have no doubt the majority of us would have no problem putting down a vicious dog, and then sleep like babies that night. But as others have said, each will react differently - and we don't know until we're in that position. 

But for me personally, it smacks of troll.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

Even if he calls animal control, would they take the dog away? In the UK, the APBT and American Staffordshire is ban, but the Staffordshire Terrier isn't. 

I remember watching this UK documentary about dangerous dogs and honestly, many of those dogs could be APBTs or be mixed with it. It is almost impossible to tell what is and what is not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbnW...T09%3A29%3A00-07%3A00&feature=player_embedded

I think his best bet is to move because even if he does somehow get rid of the dog, he still have the owners to deal with.



> I am sick to death of people making excuses for dangerous dogs NO MATTER THE BREED.


PG, the dog has not done anything as far as we are concern. How am I making excuses for a ''dangerous'' dog when he has yet to prove he is dangerous.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

And, as someone already pointed out, there is the chance that this guy was bragging about his dog solely to make himself feel better. Frankly, if I lived in a crappy neighborhood and had a bully breed, I might feel inclined to boast about how fierce it was so people would leave me alone.

It's probably not the case here, but you never know.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

*dangerous dogs*

I've been staying out of this but now I feel compelled to join in because I am not commenting about Rictic, nor the bully breeds, nor anything in the original thread(s).
But I want to chime in here and support Laura 1000% in her comment that she is sick to death of people making excuses for dangerous dogs, no matter what the breed. You go, girl. I work with dogs daily, and I see it all the time. 
A dog that growls at humans, snaps at humans, or worse yet, bites is a DANGEROUS DOG. Period. Doesn't matter what size, breed, age, or anything else.
There may be an explanation for the dog's behavior, but it's still NOT AN EXCUSE. Dogs should NOT be allowed to act this way.
In our humanization of dogs, we have started psychoanalyzing them and, all too often, treating them like human infants. THEY ARE DOGS. They will act like dogs, no matter how hard you try to pretend otherwise. 
I'm sick of the excuses, rationalizations, and so on that I hear all the time. There is, again, NO EXCUSE for dangerous dogs.
I could write a book about the things that I've heard here at the pet hotel, or in training classes, as excuses for dogs acting aggressive. And I'm sick of every one of them.
Venting over.






Pointgold said:


> Do not dare to presume that you know what I am thinking - I SAY WHAT I AM THINKING, and YES, with a situation like this one I would feel exactly the same way no matter the breed. And a Golden that attacks such as the way that I have read about here in this thread posesses an absolutely INCORRECT TEMPERAMENT and while I am sure there are many who would cry foul and make excuses for it - call a trainer, a behaviorist, give it a chance, etc etc, it is what it is, and that is incorrect. Period.
> I am sick to death of people making excuses for dangerous dogs NO MATTER THE BREED.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Tahla9999 said:


> I think his best bet is to move because even if he does somehow get rid of the dog, he still have the owners to deal with.
> .


Rictic mentioned a few times that he is in council accomodation...he does not have the luxury of simply moving...unless you are a 16 year old girl and have several children dependent on you then it is bloomin' hard to get a decent council house...he cannot just request to be moved (and from what he said he had a nice little community around him before the new neighbour moved in) 

I hope he has reported the dog to the dog warden...if it is illegal then it is illegal no matter if it is aggressive or not. If there are several houses/flats close by then any number of people could have made the call...afterall it has been loose in the garden already so anybody that uses the area could easily be concerned by it...


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Well then, maybe I should put Shadow down because when meeting a new dog he gets growly. After the initial introduction he is absolutely fine. He did growl at a human once or twice, but members here and on other forums told me "He picked up on something. They are very intuitive," I guess they were wrong??? He really does love people. If Shadow were to bark at you, he'd scare the you know what right out of you. He has a very deep bark.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Pointgold said:


> it is what it is, and that is incorrect. Period.
> I am sick to death of people making excuses for dangerous dogs NO MATTER THE BREED.


I think we can safely say that a HUGE proprtion of aggressive dogs (dog to human agrression) have been tragically let down by the humans in it's life. I simply do not believe that all aggressive dogs are 'born bad'...so from that point of view I feel nothing but pity and sadness for a dog that knows no other reaction to a stressful situation than to attack. What have they been through to get them to that point? Where some feel there is no excuse for the dog, often I make little excuse for the owner aswell.


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## heartofgold (Oct 27, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> I've been staying out of this but now I feel compelled to join in because I am not commenting about Rictic, nor the bully breeds, nor anything in the original thread(s).
> But I want to chime in here and support Laura 1000% in her comment that she is sick to death of people making excuses for dangerous dogs, no matter what the breed. You go, girl. I work with dogs daily, and I see it all the time.
> A dog that growls at humans, snaps at humans, or worse yet, bites is a DANGEROUS DOG. Period. Doesn't matter what size, breed, age, or anything else.
> There may be an explanation for the dog's behavior, but it's still NOT AN EXCUSE. Dogs should NOT be allowed to act this way.
> ...


I don't have the time to go over rectic's posts so I will not chime in on any of that. 

I do however agree 100% with this statement. A man my husband has worked with for years was hospitalized last year and nealry died from a dog bite. He was riding his bike down a public street when he was attacked by nothing more than a 10 lb poodle mix. The bite infected his blood, putting him into a coma for several days while the Center For Disease Control was sent in to help save his life. Within 48 he was nearly dead from a dog bite that barely broke the skin on his leg. This happens more than you hear about and it should be stopped. People need to get a clue about owning dogs that bite.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I remember recently on our forum, someone came here for help and support after their golden retriever had gotten loose and killed a small dog in the neighborhood. We were all very supportive, I can't recall a single person telling her she should have her dog put down or that she should surrender it. We encouraged her to work with it. We did make excuses. 

I'm so confused about how things change from thread to thread here sometimes. I am really convinced now that the tone of this thread is more about this dog being a pit bull than anything else.


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## mm03gn (Sep 24, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> I am really convinced now that the tone of this thread is more about this dog being a pit bull than anything else.


I agree with this. 

I know not all pit bulls are bad, but it seems that they are "ticking time bombs" to a certain degree. I would never let a child of mine be in the same space as a pit bull. They are banned here - if you own one that you had before the ban (I don't know the specifics) you must have them muzzled in public. 

I am lucky that of all of the dogs we see at the park, 99.9% of them are the following: GR's, Labs, Poodles, St. Bernards, Bernese MD's, GSDs... I'm not counting of course the small "dogs" (or "rabbits" as my girls know them as ) which are by far, the most vicious dogs that we come across!!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

my post was about dogs that show aggression toward humans, not toward other dogs. 
Sorry if that was not clear.


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## heartofgold (Oct 27, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> I remember recently on our forum, someone came here for help and support after their golden retriever had gotten loose and killed a small dog in the neighborhood. We were all very supportive, I can't recall a single person telling her she should have her dog put down or that she should surrender it. We encouraged her to work with it. We did make excuses.
> 
> I'm so confused about how things change from thread to thread here sometimes. I am really convinced now that the tone of this thread is more about this dog being a pit bull than anything else.


It's ironic that my post came just before yours did. I think there are a few people here that fixate on the bully breeds and we tend to hear from them the most. I think the majority of us do not. Most people love all dogs, the owners are another story. I do think that just like I love the gentleness of the GR breed some bully breed owners seek out the bully attitude of the bully breeds, that's NOT cool, IMO.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> I've been staying out of this but now I feel compelled to join in because I am not commenting about Rictic, nor the bully breeds, nor anything in the original thread(s).
> But I want to chime in here and support Laura 1000% in her comment that she is sick to death of people making excuses for dangerous dogs, no matter what the breed. You go, girl. I work with dogs daily, and I see it all the time.
> A dog that growls at humans, snaps at humans, or worse yet, bites is a DANGEROUS DOG. Period. Doesn't matter what size, breed, age, or anything else.
> There may be an explanation for the dog's behavior, but it's still NOT AN EXCUSE. Dogs should NOT be allowed to act this way.


So by that logic... if a toddler sticks a pencil up the dog's nose and the dog snaps and makes contact with the toddler, who's at fault? There are LOTS of reasons why a dog might growl, snap or bite a human -- and a huge % of those reasons are due to the humans. Does the dog still end up "responsible?" Understanding why dogs bite - and the related circumstances - does not automatically = and excuse for biting. I think there can be a big difference between an excuse and a reason.

If you own an outwardly aggressive dog, I feel you'd darn well better take every precaution necessary to keep the public safe.

My "beef" with this thread is the number of people who have already deeemed this dog "aggressive" as a fact. If I recall, the ONLY behavior the poster observed from the dog was arousal thru the window (OK - show of hands if your GOLDEN does that!) and the dog ran around the garden and they couldn't catch it. (Again - we've had many posts from Golden owners reporting that they couldn't control their off leash dogs and the dog ran up to someone who didn't appreciate it, etc.)

Had he said the dog lunged at he and his dog when they were all outside, or something similar, it would be an entirely different story. But to me, all his posts were basically "imagining" what will happen with this dog --- all w/o any real "proof." I've said all along - he doesn't have to LIKE living next to a Pit Bull. Might make me a bit nervous, too, and I might alter my behavior as a result -- but honestly, it felt like hysteria in his posts, w/o facts to back it up.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I do not dispute that at all. But sometimes it's not that the dogs have been abused, it's that they've not been taught not to fear.

Here's a real story from my pet hotel.
People brought me a 200+ pound English mastiff for a trial board, about 3 years old, neutered male.
As the woman is coming in the building with him, she's cooing to him non-stop....along the lines of, "it's okay baby, mommy's right here with you, don't worry baby, mommy won't leave your side", etc. etc. She explains to me that he's very very attached to her and he's never away from her side for more than 5 minutes. (and I can tell already that it's because she needs him to be). She goes on along the lines of, "don't worry sweetie pie, the other big bad doggies aren't going to hurt you any" (the other big bad doggies are all locked up). 
Well guess what, the mastiff is VERY fear aggressive. No surprise there. She goes in the run with him to "get him settled", crying the whole time, because her baby is going to be away from her overnight for a trial board.
After she leaves, every time I walk near the run, he's LUNGING at the gate and snarling at me. This is NOT good. 
So I call her and tell her to return and get the dog, I can't board him, he's much too (fear) aggressive.
And she says to me, (I kid you not here.....)
"well did you try offering him hot dogs? that's what we do when he growls at us when we want him to do something" :doh:
Um yeah lady, I'm going to drop everything, rush to the store, buy some hot dogs, and offer them to a 200+ pound dog that's wanting to kill me. Yep, that's just what I had planned.
So then of course she says to me, "well NOW what am I supposed to do, we have to go to (whatever the event was) and I have to leave him somewhere!!"
I'm normally pretty good with customers, really I am. But I said to her, "I'm sorry, you have created the problem, and it's not up to me to solve it nor to deal with it."
So the point of that whole thing was, yes, I feel very sorry for the dogs in a lot of cases. More than you know. It's so very often the owner's fault, not a genetic problem, or breed problem, in the dog. In the case of this owner, it was just plain and simple ignorance about raising a dog correctly, not any intention to harm.
Wanna hear more stories from the pet hotel? I've got hundreds of them.





Emma&Tilly said:


> I think we can safely say that a HUGE proprtion of aggressive dogs (dog to human agrression) have been tragically let down by the humans in it's life. I simply do not believe that all aggressive dogs are 'born bad'...so from that point of view I feel nothing but pity and sadness for a dog that knows no other reaction to a stressful situation than to attack. What have they been through to get them to that point? Where some feel there is no excuse for the dog, often I make little excuse for the owner aswell.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't necessarily disagree with any of this, but let's remember rictic's neighbor dog has given no indication of biting or attacking a human being.


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## marleysmummy (Jul 11, 2008)

it also has to be remembered that I think the dog has just moved in, so has just been reunited with its owner, is living in new surroundings, new people, new doggie smells - I know Marley wouldn't be the calmest dog in the world after all these changes.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I hope you understood the original intent of both my post and I suspect Laura's. I don't refer to the extreme case where a dog is severely injured and lashes out in self-defense. That's pretty obviously a whole different situation than a dog that snaps because someone it knows well grabs its collar, or takes a toy away from it, etc. We could sit here and describe situations and pick them apart all day, but the jist of it is the same. Dogs who bite humans, unless severely provoked, are dangerous dogs. I suppose we all have our own definition of "severely provoked". My definition doesn't include taking a piece of food out of it's mouth, or telling it to get off the bed. Sticking a pencil up the dog's nose would fit my description of severely provoked, and I would fault the owner/caretaker 100% in that situation.
And I agree totally, if you own an outwardly aggressive dog, you'd better take every precaution and then some to keep everyone safe. I have several customers who board their dogs here whenever they have out of town company because they just don't trust the dogs, especially around small children staying with them. Never had a problem with a single one of them, either, but these are responsible dog owners who know their dog *might* have bite potential if provoked. Kudos to each of them.
And about this thread...all of my posts probably belonged in a different thread, since I am not referring to rictic nor that dog at all, just making grossly general statements.
One of my 3 goldens has bite potential in my mind, the female. Whenever the vet has to do something to her that I know will hurt, I strongly suggest they muzzle her. They always laugh, they've never muzzled her, and she's never bitten anyone. Do I plan to put her down because of it? No. Not at all. She's never growled or snapped at anyone.
So why do I say she has bite potential? Because when she was about 2 years old, she lacerated her front paw pads very badly. I was trying to trim some of the dead skin off of them with a small scissors so I could tend to them, they were badly ripped and raw, and she showed her teeth at me several times. Didn't snap. Didn't bite.
But to me that's bite potential, and I feel it necessary to warn the vet personnel. And I would NEVER trust her around very small children just in case they hurt her. 



FlyingQuizini said:


> So by that logic... if a toddler sticks a pencil up the dog's nose and the dog snaps and makes contact with the toddler, who's at fault? There are LOTS of reasons why a dog might growl, snap or bite a human -- and a huge % of those reasons are due to the humans. Does the dog still end up "responsible?" Understanding why dogs bite - and the related circumstances - does not automatically = and excuse for biting. I think there can be a big difference between an excuse and a reason.
> 
> If you own an outwardly aggressive dog, I feel you'd darn well better take every precaution necessary to keep the public safe.
> 
> ...


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## heartofgold (Oct 27, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> So by that logic... if a toddler sticks a pencil up the dog's nose and the dog snaps and makes contact with the toddler, who's at fault? There are LOTS of reasons why a dog might growl, snap or bite a human -- and a huge % of those reasons are due to the humans. Does the dog still end up "responsible?" Understanding why dogs bite - and the related circumstances - does not automatically = and excuse for biting. I think there can be a big difference between an excuse and a reason.
> 
> If you own an outwardly aggressive dog, I feel you'd darn well better take every precaution necessary to keep the public safe.
> 
> ...


Referring to your post about a dog biting/growling at toddler who stuck a pencil up his nose. In this instance the dog has the right to react, it is a living breathing thing that feels pain. But the reaction of any normal dog should be to nip or growl if anything. There is a huge difference between a warning nip, a bite, and a viscious mauling of a person. Even my dog ,who is very gentle and loves kids, may (only if under serious pain) nip at or growl at a child. She has NEVER EVER nipped at anyone or growled even when bit by another dog but she may as with any animal. That is where it would stop. People who make excuses for a dog mauling a child to death or attacking someone for no reason at all makes me furious.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

heartofgold said:


> Referring to your post about a dog biting/growling at toddler who stuck a pencil up his nose. In this instance the dog has the right to react, it is a living breathing thing that feels pain. But the reaction of any normal dog should be to nip or growl if anything. There is a huge difference between a warning nip, a bite, and a viscious mauling of a person. Even my dog ,who is very gentle and loves kids, may (only if under serious pain) nip at or growl at a child. She has NEVER EVER nipped at anyone or growled even when bit by another dog but she may as with any animal. That is where it would stop. People who make excuses for a dog mauling a child to death or attacking someone for no reason at all makes me furious.


I dunno, if a kid shoved a pencil up my nose I'm pretty sure I would do a lot more than give a warning growl. But that's just me. I'm an irascible human.


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

I'm out of the loop but just read that thread. I would be beside myself with worry as well. I wouldn't want to live next to a nutcase that boasts about his agressive dog either.

The man's thoughts of being proactive rather than reactive are a reaction to his fear and frustration at the situation. I really think that Men tend to be ProActive and Women Reactive. It would be a horrible way to live - I personally would be contacting the Landlord and encouraging as many of the tenants to do the same in order to boot him out, offering photos, videos, etc. as proof of an unsafe living situation. If the Landlord does nothing I'd next contact the Insurance Company - they are always looking forward to dumping a risk.

Would I kill a dog that has harmed my dog or killed my dog? Possibly - nobody knows the answer to that until they are in that situation. 

We had a situation when my Jake was a young dog - a dog from a neighboring yard jumped the fence and attacked him. Thankfully my husband was out there and managed to chase the dog off - shovel in hand. He turned round to find our elderly neighbor had jumped the fence into our yard and was on the move with a spade as well. Thankfully our Jake was loved by all and the neighbor with the agressive dog moved.

Thankfully nobody has any agressive dogs in our neighborhood save a nippy little Shitzu on the next street. She's come out, she's threatened but so far hasn't bitten. It had better stay that way.

Sorry but the last statement by Ritic made me LOL. Gotta love the English - I love their jargon.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I think we Americans need to understand a bit about Rictic's housing situation. Council Housing, where he lives is public housing although in England it is not only for the extremely poor. If I understand it correctly, many lower middle class people live in council housing. There is nicer council housing and not so nice council housing. It sounds like Rictic has some rather nice council housing except for his new neighbor. Therefore the landlord is the "council" and I don't know what the council's liability is for things like dangerous dogs, but I imagine, like for American public housing administrations, it is less than for a private landlord. 

Also, as he stated, it took time three years to get into this nice place and it would take him a long time to find a new place, rather like moving from one American public housing complex to another. 

So the approach of going to the landlords insurance agent or moving are not realistic solutions for him to take.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Why on earth should Rictic move ANYway, when the yahoo who brought this dog in did so ILLEGALLY!?:doh:


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Pointgold said:


> Why on earth should Rictic move ANYway, when the yahoo who brought this dog in did so ILLEGALLY!?:doh:


We don't actually know that either...it could be a mixture of perfectly legal bully breeds...or even a staffie (it is hard to tell from a headshot) That is why it would be sensible to call in a dog warden to get it checked out properly, they will definitely be up on the protocol for illegal dogs in the Manchester area (I remember several cases in the news not too long ago) That is Daves only sensible option so I hope he did make the call. Considering there are other families sharing the building/complex I fail to see why the owner would immediately assume it is rictic.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

When I suggested he move, it was because of the way he described his whole community, not just this one new neighbor:



> we aint all in the same safe enviroment.
> i live in a city reknowned for violence and guns and vicious dogs.
> the dogs are used as weapons here to intimidate and hurt.


And he also said the authorities were "wusses" -- they wouldn't help at all for fear of upsetting someone.

That's a little more serious of a living situation than having one wayward neighbor, I would say. I fail to see how encouraging someone to find better, safer living conditions is wrong.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

Can the mods let Rictic back on just this one time? It is hard to wait a week for an update.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> As the woman is coming in the building with him, she's cooing to him non-stop....along the lines of, "it's okay baby, mommy's right here with you, don't worry baby, mommy won't leave your side", etc. etc. She explains to me that he's very very attached to her and he's never away from her side for more than 5 minutes. (and I can tell already that it's because she needs him to be). She goes on along the lines of, "don't worry sweetie pie, the other big bad doggies aren't going to hurt you any" (the other big bad doggies are all locked up)
> .
> .


Wonder if some of those big bad doggies were mine? I remember you telling me about this dog. Kind of off the subject but got me to thinking about how my dogs come to their second home. They know as soon as they all get into the car they are either going to the vets or to your place. The farther the go the more excited they get until I open the car door and they burst out and fly thru the building into the back runs. Guess I must have done something right in that they are secure enough not to stress out about me leaving them.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

stress out??? they don't even notice you're gone....LOLOL



my4goldens said:


> Wonder if some of those big bad doggies were mine? I remember you telling me about this dog. Kind of off the subject but got me to thinking about how my dogs come to their second home. They know as soon as they all get into the car they are either going to the vets or to your place. The farther the go the more excited they get until I open the car door and they burst out and fly thru the building into the back runs. Guess I must have done something right in that they are secure enough not to stress out about me leaving them.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> stress out??? they don't even notice you're gone....LOLOL


yep, fickle dogs, especially Raider. Hey, I got an idea, he loves you so much, why don't you show him in utility for me? I don't know if I will ever have the nerve to step in the ring.


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## Waggily Tail (Jan 11, 2009)

Fight or flight syndrome... are we that much different from our fur friends? I try very hard not to profile or be prejudiced towards others, be it fur or flesh. I know that I am predisposed to those hard-wired innate feelings that come from the core of my being... be it upbringing, past experiences or whatever. I look at the poster's description of events. I don't know what's true or not. However, if I were to have such a guy and dog in my neighborhood, and I felt theatened in any way, I would be going into protect-mode. UK or USA, the authorities always have bigger fish to fry, so the protection we expect is not always there. I wish Rictic the very best outcome.


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## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

*Received from ASPCA forum*

Hi, I'm a member of this forum - don't do much, but receive random e-mails on different posts. This I just got today and thought very interesting considering what this thread is all about.

_A message from *********** to all members of Helping Animals on ASPCA Online Community!_

_I went to a family reunion in NC. Tree cousins, my father and sister and myself were going to go see a cemetery behind another cousins house. When we got there there were no signs of dogs but when my 79 year old cousin got out of the car to go to the house, 2 pit bulls came racing around the house and attacked her. I jumped out of the car and jumped in between them and her to stop them from killing her and was bitten on the right thigh. We did nothing to provoke them. We were almost killed by them until his girlfriend ran out and waved them off._
_I love dogs, even pit bulls but they are dangerous dogs. Or has anyone had a pit bull that has NEVER bitten someone?_

My point, again is this - we will never know what that dog would have done had someone been in the garden area when it was running around. Quite clearly to me that if several people were trying to catch it that it's not very well trained in the first place. Does someone need to be mauled first? Namely Rictic or one of his family members or a neighbor before something is done? And, yes I guess I am being breed specific. Profiling if you will. But it's apparent that this breed is very well known for these type of unprovoked attacks. That in itself should tell us something!

My vet has scolded me as she states she knows lots of very sweet pit bulls. I'm sure that's true. But, how is a person supposed to know a sweet pit bull vs an attacker? What a mess!!!! It's not the dog's fault, either. It's just the _nature of the beast _if you will.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

My two didn't bite my neighbor when they got loose, but they did go and great her very excitedly. Tucker tends to grab people by the arm to force them to pet him. I think this behavior is gone now, but I'm always afraid he will be misunderstood if he gets excited and goes to grab. In almost 7 years they have only gotten out of our yard unattended twice. Two times too many and luck was with us. If they were a bully breed, I don't know what would have happened, even though they were pretty well behaved.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I understand your point, Cindy. Sometimes we have no warning and then it's too late.

But we can't go around killing dogs ourselves with rat poison or by whatever means simply because we're afraid of them. Where do we draw the line with that type of thinking? I know some people have been afraid of my dog just because of her size, or because she has a big bark. 

We have to go through the proper channels with this type of issue, and that was my only problem with rictic's posts that night -- that he wasn't going to follow the proper channels.


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## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

I agree totally, Jo. I'm thinking (assumption on my part) that he was originally speaking out of frustration regarding the killing thing. And, to simply kill anything simply out of suspicion of what MIGHT happen certainly isn't right. Especially rat poison! Which, if my memory serves me right he was the one that brought that up first, then talked his neighbor out of it.

Again, I would like to believe that that kind of talk was merely out of frustration with feeling like his hands are tied. It's a mess! I feel bad for Rictic.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't know, I got the impression from him that night that he was seriously talking about killing the dog with rat poison. I even checked myself and came right out and asked him and he responded it was a distinct possibility. Maybe he was just frustrated, but what if he was serious? What if he was serious and no one here said anything to him that that was totally the wrong thing to do? 

I'm sorry but I had to respond to what I was hearing, just to make it clear to him that he was being completely irrational in the direction he was headed, with the way he was talking.

Living next door to a dog you are deathly afraid of ... that I can sympathize with and understand. Killing a dog you are afraid of with rat poison before you have tried to address the problem civilly and legally is....crazy.

I hope we are still friends, Cindy. You know I love you, I hope Duke is well :wave:


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

Having owned one of the "bully breeds" for 30 years I became very fond of the Rottie. Had one, two, and sometimes three at a time. In 30 years of raising my daiughters, having pajama parties, and all other kid and family things, never an incident of a growl, or any other unwanted anti-social behavior.
In 2008 while walking my Jake, leashed and pulling his wagon he observed what he took as an aggressive act between a man and woman walking next to us. Mind you this was a 4 year old, well bred, well socialized dog with no bite history until that day. He was active in rescue work collecting donated food in his wagon with kids all around him. He took the man to the ground inflicting a very serious wound to his arm that required hospitalization and surgery. It was that day that I realized that the dog I considered part of my familly became a "bully breed" for one second. I put him down the next morning. So when I hear about a "bully breed" I understand that it can be someones best friend and the best dog in the world, mine was too, until that minute.
WagonDog


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks for sharing that, Jerry. How terribly awful that must have been for you and Jake.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

Duke's Momma said:


> Hi, I'm a member of this forum - don't do much, but receive random e-mails on different posts. This I just got today and thought very interesting considering what this thread is all about.
> 
> _A message from *********** to all members of Helping Animals on ASPCA Online Community!_
> 
> ...


If pit bulls had a theme song, this will be it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNl2Pm9-7Vk

I have a pit bull that never bit anyone. In fact, I bet my dog is less likely to bite someone then many of the dogs in this forum. Even in extreme pain, he would not lash out or bite. Even when kids ran towards him screaming at the top of their lungs, he did not bite. He wagged is tail and waited for the loving. I'm in a pit bull community and there are no stories of their dogs suddenly attacking someone. I seriously think you need to educate yourself on the breed because ''it is in their nature'' to attack people is completely false.

How to tell a dangerous pit bull from a nice one is how you tell any other dog from an aggressive one. Watch the signs.





> Having owned one of the "bully breeds" for 30 years I became very fond of the Rottie. Had one, two, and sometimes three at a time. In 30 years of raising my daiughters, having pajama parties, and all other kid and family things, never an incident of a growl, or any other unwanted anti-social behavior.
> In 2008 while walking my Jake, leashed and pulling his wagon he observed what he took as an aggressive act between a man and woman walking next to us. Mind you this was a 4 year old, well bred, well socialized dog with no bite history until that day. He was active in rescue work collecting donated food in his wagon with kids all around him. He took the man to the ground inflicting a very serious wound to his arm that required hospitalization and surgery. It was that day that I realized that the dog I considered part of my familly became a "bully breed" for one second. I put him down the next morning. So when I hear about a "bully breed" I understand that it can be someones best friend and the best dog in the world, mine was too, until that minute.
> WagonDog


Um, are you talking about a Rott? Those aren't bully breeds.


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

Tahla9999 said:


> If pit bulls had a theme song, this will be it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNl2Pm9-7Vk
> 
> I have a pit bull that never bit anyone. In fact, I bet my dog is less likely to bite someone then many of the dogs in this forum. Even in extreme pain, he would not lash out or bite. Even when kids ran towards him screaming at the top of their lungs, he did not bite. He wagged is tail and waited for the loving. I'm in a pit bull community and there are no stories of their dogs suddenly attacking someone. I seriously think you need to educate yourself on the breed because ''it is in their nature'' to attack people is completely false.
> 
> ...


They are listed as a "dangerous breed" in many if not all home owners exclusion clauses. Don't quite know where the term bully breed came from but it doesn't make too much sense anyway and I don't use the term.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

wagondog said:


> They are listed as a "dangerous breed" in many if not all home owners exclusion clauses. Don't quite know where the term bully breed came from but it doesn't make too much sense anyway and I don't use the term.


Bully breeds are dogs that usually fall under the ''pit bull'' blanket. American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Bull Terrier, American Bulldogs, etc etc. Basically dogs that came form the original bulldog so it was confusing when you said ''bully breeds'' than proceeded to talk about Rotts.


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

Tahla9999 said:


> Bully breeds are dogs that usually fall under the ''pit bull'' blanket. American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Bull Terrier, American Bulldogs, etc etc. Basically dogs that came form the original bulldog so it was confusing when you said ''bully breeds'' than proceeded to talk about Rotts.


Well,
I never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed. I thought bully breeds referred to dogs that were bullies :doh:


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

wagondog said:


> Well,
> I never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed. I thought bully breeds referred to dogs that were bullies :doh:


LOL I made the same mistake when I first heard the term '' bully breeds'' so yeah.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahla9999 said:


> If pit bulls had a theme song, this will be it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNl2Pm9-7Vk
> 
> I have a pit bull that never bit anyone. In fact, I bet my dog is less likely to bite someone then many of the dogs in this forum. Even in extreme pain, he would not lash out or bite. Even when kids ran towards him screaming at the top of their lungs, he did not bite. He wagged is tail and waited for the loving. I'm in a pit bull community and there are no stories of their dogs suddenly attacking someone. I seriously think you need to educate yourself on the breed because ''it is in their nature'' to attack people is completely false.
> 
> ...


We could pull up the past threads that you started when you first joined GRF to educate us all about Pit Bulls. Although you contradicted yourself on many points, you clearly stated that they are usually fine until around 3 years old. Your dog is still a puppy. 
I think that you yourself need more education regarding _dogs, _and not just pit bulls,if you think that you can guarantee that your dog would not "lash out or bite" even if in extreme pain. That is extraordinarily naive. 

I'm glad that you live in a "pit bull community". Maybe if there were such communities identified, and that is all that was allowed there, people who want to keep such dogs can all live happily together and those who don't, can stay as far away from them as possible. No need for BSL's then.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> We could pull up the past threads that you started when you first joined GRF to educate us all about Pit Bulls. Although you contradicted yourself on many points, you clearly stated that they are usually fine until around 3 years old. Your dog is still a puppy.
> I think that you yourself need more education regarding _dogs, _and not just pit bulls,if you think that you can guarantee that your dog would not "lash out or bite" even if in extreme pain. That is extraordinarily naive.
> 
> I'm glad that you live in a "pit bull community". Maybe if there were such communities identified, and that is all that was allowed there, people who want to keep such dogs can all live happily together and those who don't, can stay as far away from them as possible. No need for BSL's then.


The reason I said that my dog would not lash out in extreme is because when he was under that much pain, he did not. As a pit bull, they are generally very pain tolerant so I'm not that surprise.

Once, he got too close to frying oil and some actually jumped in hit him. He jumped back in surprise and when I went to go inspect it, he allowed me to do it with little resistance. Also, when he bit down on a can top, he seriously cut up his lip and blood went everywhere! The dog did not made a sound when it happen. He was more worried about making a mess. I grab him and started cleaning the area and there was no snapping, no growling, no nothing. So yeah hun, I know my dog.

And I wont comment on the rest just because I know how you like to twist words. That is not what I said.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahla9999 said:


> The reason I said that my dog would not lash out in extreme is because when he was under that much pain, he did not. As a pit bull, they are generally very pain tolerant so I'm not that surprise.
> 
> Once, he got too close to frying oil and some actually jumped in hit him. He jumped back in surprise and when I went to go inspect it, he allowed me to do it with little resistance. Also, when he bit down on a can top, he seriously cut up his lip and blood went everywhere! The dog did not made a sound when it happen. He was more worried about making a mess. I grab him and started cleaning the area and there was no snapping, no growling, no nothing. So yeah hun, I know my dog.
> 
> And I wont comment on the rest just because I know how you like to twist words. That is not what I said.


Actually "hun", you twist your own words whenever they have been quoted back to you.

Unfortunately, the pit bulls that have done the most damage are usually owned by people who "know their dogs" and have insisted that they are sweet and wouldn't hurt anyone or anything.

Denial helps no one, including the dogs.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

Tahla9999 - there is a difference between you attending to him while he's in pain and someone else near him when he's in pain.

It's very troublesome that you don't know what you don't know.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

We have a real problem in Dallas with pit bulls... take a look at the number of articles just on page 1 of a google search. http://www.google.com/search?source..._enUS222US222&q=pit+bull+attacks+in+dallas+tx Many of these attacks have been people just out walking, attacked by loose dogs. One woman was out putting the water on her lawn when cornered in a side yard, another was two boys walking home from school. Luckily some elderly people were out in their yards and were able to get the dogs off these two elementary school kids. I've said before that I walk with a 3-iron, and wouldn't hesitate to do whatever it took to keep my dogs and myself safe.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

GRZ said:


> Tahla9999 - there is a difference between you attending to him while he's in pain and someone else near him when he's in pain.
> 
> It's very troublesome that you don't know what you don't know.



I am being very respectful, but don't act like you know my dog more than I do.

I can say without any doubt that it doesn't matter who you are, he will not bite you under extreme pain. Of course you wont believe me, that I can't help.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahla9999 said:


> I am being very respectfully, but don't act like you know my dog more than I do.
> 
> I can say without any doubt that it doesn't matter who you are, he will not bite you under extreme pain. Of course you wont believe me, that I can't help.


 
:doh: "_I can say without any doubt that it doesn't matter who you are, he will not bite you under extreme pain. Of course you wont believe me, that I can't help."_ That is a *very* dangerous attitude to take with ANY dog. Unless perhaps you've had his teeth extracted. 
Sorry. You are a 20-something, whose "expertise" with the breed is based on information usually cut n pasted from a pro-Pit Bull Forum, and whose only pit bull is by your own admission, poorly bred. Your previous dogs have also had temperament/aggression problems. Your experience with dogs in general is extremely limited, and given your last post, I would not consider you to be particularly responsible.
I have difficulty with your credibility as far as you educating me.


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## mm03gn (Sep 24, 2008)

Tahla9999 said:


> I can say without any doubt that it doesn't matter who you are, he will not bite you under extreme pain.


What makes you any different from other pit bull owners who made the same claims before their dog "snapped" and DID bite someone?? I very highly doubt that the majority of pit owners whose dog attacked ever had ANY inclination that their dog would hurt anyone! Of course there are those crazies who actually are proud of their "vicious" dog (as Rictic claims his neighbour is). 

Most of the bully breed attacks I hear of are kids, getting attacked for no reason. Something happens in a seemingly gentle, loving dog, that turns it into a killer. You can't say that it won't happen with your dog. You don't know that, any more than the others did!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Tahla this is from page 4 of your pit bull thread,



> No responsible APBT owner will go to dog parks. They were bred to fight other dogs and that instinct could come out any second. Some dogs don't become DA until a certain age, like after two or three. Some APBT never become DA, but it is still very irresponsible to take them their because you never know. Even pit bulls who aren't DA will usually defend themselves if attacked, and because of their history, they can turn the tables really quickly and the pit bull will be blamed.
> 
> Their is a slogan we APBT owners use. Never trust a pit bull not to fight.


By these definitions from you, I wouldn't be nearly so trusting. Combine that with the fact of multiple people attacks in my city ( see above citing) and I think there is a real problem with these dogs.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

Oh lord, let us not get into this!:doh: Never said my dog would never bite in any situation, but I have no doubt that he would not bite in extreme pain. That is what they were bred for, but let us not get into it! 

It isn't about me or my pittie, it is about Rictic and his situation with a ''suppose'' dangerous dog.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahla9999 said:


> Oh lord, let us not get into this!:doh: Never said my dog would never bite in any situation, but I have no doubt that he would not bite in extreme pain. That is what they were bred for, but let us not get into it!
> 
> It isn't about me or my pittie, it is about Rictic and his situation with a ''suppose'' dangerous dog.


 
I'd put you and your "pittie" in the same box as Rictic's new neighbor. Bragging about how agressive a dog is, or bragging that their pit bull wouldn't bite in extreme pain makes both very unstable situations.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I'd put you and your "pittie" in the same box as Rictic's new neighbor. Bragging about how agressive a dog is, or bragging that their pit bull wouldn't bite in extreme pain makes both very unstable situations.


Sure, think what you want. If you want to make a separate thread about me and my pit, or pit bulls, or whatever, than do so.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Hi all, have just spent ages reading through this whole thread...

I would only like to add a couple of things...

Firstly, the APBT is a banned breed in the UK, also any pit bull type. This decision was not taken lighly by the authorities but must have been considered a necessity in order to protect the general public from what seems to be an unpredictable and dangerous breed of dog.

If a dog is considered to be APBT 'type' it is assessed, even DNA tested, and yes, it will be destroyed if found to be the banned breed. Anyone planning on owning one already knows this, so I fail to see the point of owning one. We also have a law called the "Dangerous Dog Act" whereby any person who is scared by the actions of ANY dog can report it, regardless of breed, ane the owner can be prosecuted, in extreme cases the dog will again be destroyed. 

Anyhow, IMHO the breed was banned for very good reason, and I am very glad! From what I hear, in some areas across the pond people can't even walk along the street minding their own business without fear of being attacked. This simply does not happen in the UK, there may be a minute percentage of people who would let their dog wander... its very rare indeed!

Therefore for Dave to have to share a communal garden, the only place little Otis can run around inside the property with a dog which may be a banned breed, why should he have to accept it? In fact, the part I didn't quite understand was that he thought he was alone in feeling afraid, in fact it seems quite clear the whole community are afraid of this man and his dog. IMO the community should stand together for the sake of their future happiness.

Also, I feel a couple of the posts in the original thread were in fact pushing Dave to an emotional response, especially as he is obviously feeling upset at the moment... I don't excuse his behaviour, but I believe some buttons may have been pushed...

Good luck Dave, I hope your situation improves, and that you and yours remain safe...

I hope Dave has spoken to the Council. I work alongside our local Dog Wardens, and I can assure him they do not take it lightly.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahla9999 said:


> Sure, think what you want. If you want to make a separate thread about me and my pit, or pit bulls, or whatever, than do so.


 
I don't think that's necessary. There are more than enough of those here as it it, IMO. This is a Golden Retriever Forum. 

I pray that your naivete' is not challenged at the expense of another.


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## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> I hope we are still friends, Cindy. You know I love you, I hope Duke is well :wave:


Absolutely! Same right back at you. Duke is doing good. Dealing with some kidney issues that we're trying to resolve, but good (senior  but good.)


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

> Firstly, the APBT is a banned breed in the UK, also any pit bull type. This decision was not taken lighly by the authorities but must have been considered a necessity in order to protect the general public from what seems to be an unpredictable and dangerous breed of dog.


Well, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier isn't banned, and it is a pit bull type. And I bet there are people in the UK who have APBTs but claim that they are Staffy mixes.

There was a documentary about dangerous dogs in the UK, and they wanted to see how easy it is to get a pit bull. Not surprisingly, it was very easy to obtain one.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahla9999 said:


> Well, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier isn't banned, and it is a pit bull type. And I bet there are people in the UK who have APBTs but claim that they are Staffy mixes.
> 
> There was a documentary about dangerous dogs in the UK, and they wanted to see how easy it is to get a pit bull. Not surprisingly, it was very easy to obtain one.


 
Which would mean that there are even more potentially dangerous dogs, with potentially irresponsible owners... since they are willing to lie in order to break the law to keep a pit bull.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Tahla9999 said:


> Well, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier isn't banned, and it is a pit bull type. And I bet there are people in the UK who have APBTs but claim that they are Staffy mixes.
> 
> There was a documentary about dangerous dogs in the UK, and they wanted to see how easy it is to get a pit bull. Not surprisingly, it was very easy to obtain one.


All I can say is if their dog is taken away and destroyed they've only got themselves to blame...

From memory, Dave (who has a lovely GR pup called Otis) has a possible APBT moved in next to him who would therefore be a banned breed. One call to the Council could get it removed to kennels while it is assessed...

As Laura said, this is indeed a Golden Retriever Forum, and this original thread was started by a GR owner living in fear...

I'm not about to get into a pitbull debate, it doesn't hold enough interest for me...

I posted in response to others' queries surrounding the banning of the APBT in the UK, and what the Authorities are likely to do if it is reported.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

tanyac said:


> All I can say is if their dog is taken away and destroyed they've only got themselves to blame...
> 
> From memory, Dave (who has a lovely GR pup called Otis) has a possible APBT moved in next to him who would therefore be a banned breed. One call to the Council could get it removed to kennels while it is assessed...
> 
> ...


Good post.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Which would mean that there are even more potentially dangerous dogs, with potentially irresponsible owners... since they are willing to lie in order to break the law to keep a pit bull.


Laura, the two Council dog wardens who I know very well, are national specialists in identifying an APBT from other mixes. Apparently its very technical. Needless to say, they are called to give evidence in court on a regular basis. I have spoken to them on this subject many times, and they can easily tell a Staffy mix for instance...

Also, the general public here are very aware of the ban, and will report any dog they consider to be a banned breed.

Unfortunately for Dave, he lives in an area of the country where these dogs are more likely to crop up. That doesn't mean there won't be people queuing up to report this dog.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

BTW Rose, I LOVED your story about Arnie nibbling on that man's parts... what a clever boy!!! I needed a giggle....


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

tanyac said:


> Laura, the two Council dog wardens who I know very well, are national specialists in identifying an APBT from other mixes. Apparently its very technical. Needless to say, they are called to give evidence in court on a regular basis. I have spoken to them on this subject many times, and they can easily tell a Staffy mix for instance...
> 
> Also, the general public here are very aware of the ban, and will report any dog they consider to be a banned breed.
> 
> Unfortunately for Dave, he lives in an area of the country where these dogs are more likely to crop up. That doesn't mean there won't be people queuing up to report this dog.


 
I understand. There are people who are actually real experts in their fields.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

I did call Dave once (he had a problem when he first had Otis), but he typed his number then deleted it straight after. I'm wondering how its been this week too.

I'll go ask the other UK members if someone has his number...


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I hardly think Tahla thinks of herself as a national expert on pit bulls. I don't think it's necessary to be so rude, anymore than it was necessary for me to be rude to rictic the night he was posting about killing the pit bull and I told him I thought he was crazy.

I again apologize for being rude to rictic, I was just completely thrown off guard and the thought of what he was talking about was indeed very disturbing to me, and others too. I do hope that he has pursued an appropriate avenue for dealing with his situation -- I hope to hear from him that all is well.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Imagine that. Another pit bull bashing thread. I thought we were all dog lovers, but apparently I was wrong.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

tanyac said:


> I did call Dave once (he had a problem when he first had Otis), but he typed his number then deleted it straight after. I'm wondering how its been this week too.
> 
> I'll go ask the other UK members if someone has his number...


 
If anyone does speak with him, please let him know that he has many people supporting him. It is very easy to understand his fear, and why it is valid. Too many people own these dogs who are in either complete denial as to their potential to harm, or, own them exactly _because _of it. :no: Very, very few are truly responsible breeders or owners. No, not the dog's fault, but there is no reason at all to have dogs like this.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

fostermom said:


> Imagine that. Another pit bull bashing thread. I thought we were all dog lovers, but apparently I was wrong.


 
Because someone thinks that pit bulls have little place being "pets", and especially with inexperienced or irresponsible owners, absolutely does _not _mean that they do not love dogs. To suggest that is ridiculous.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Because someone thinks that pit bulls have little place being "pets", and especially with inexperienced or irresponsible owners, absolutely does _not _mean that they do not love dogs. To suggest that is ridiculous.


I totally disagree with the first part of your post. They do have a place being a pet. The breed bashing is really sad. Did anyone look at Hotel4Dog's poll? How many of those dogs who bit someone was a pit bull? Last time I looked, zero. Might have changed since then, but the majority seemed to be GSDs. But nobody is saying that they should not be "pets" or owned by inexperienced or irresponsible owners. Though I do agree that irresponsible owners should not have dogs in the first place.


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## mary624 (Jul 11, 2009)

wagondog said:


> It was that day that I realized that the dog I considered part of my familly became a "bully breed" for one second. I put him down the next morning. So when I hear about a "bully breed" I understand that it can be someones best friend and the best dog in the world, mine was too, until that minute.
> WagonDog


That must have been very very hard for you. I'm sorry.
I like Rottweilers too...and can very well understand why people like them...BUT they just are so powerful that if they slip, they slip big....I would never own one for that reason....but Rottweilers are really a gorgeous breed

I do not like pitbulls though...and I admit discrimination. I don't even think they are pretty to look at.

mary


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## mary624 (Jul 11, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> In our humanization of dogs, we have started psychoanalyzing them and, all too often, treating them like human infants. THEY ARE DOGS. They will act like dogs, no matter how hard you try to pretend otherwise.



Agreed.
That's why I love watching the dog whisperer, and reading his advice from his website. Dogs should be treated like DOG's.

http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/

he is so awesome!

mary


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## Pez (Jun 9, 2009)

After re- reading the Rictic posts It seems that COMMUNICATION is what is lacking here. Dave should be communicating this with the appropriate agency to have this dog, who hasn't committed a violation, evaluated. I would be concerned in his position but he didn't seem to come up with a constructive plan to deal with this situation. It has to be a tough situation to deal with...so why not try to resolve it?

His lashing out was unwarranted. A forum is the place for an exchange of ideas and experiences, if he didn't like what he heard, he should have accepted it like a gentleman and pursued other more fruitful alternatives; he came to this forum for help with this issue, not the other way around.

That said, I hope he finds a resolution and that this all pans out well for him...I hope he actually does something about this rather/rant than talk about it and keeps the histrionics in check.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Hey, [email protected]@K! What's that? OH! It's dead horse! Woohoo! Let's beat on it some more!

Sorry. Couldn't resist.


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## mary624 (Jul 11, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> So by that logic... if a toddler sticks a pencil up the dog's nose and the dog snaps and makes contact with the toddler, who's at fault? There are LOTS of reasons why a dog might growl, snap or bite a human



that actually happened back in the 80's, a sheepdog of all things killed a two year old. It was so out of character for the dog (and the breed) that they did an autopsy on the dog to find out if it had rabies or something and they found a pencil jammed into it's ear.

poor dog, poor child. It was a huge tragedy all around.

That story made a huge impression on me, the first thing I do with my kids is teach them never to stick anything in the dogs face or ears or what ever, and I wont leave a two year old alone with a dog...ever.

mary


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## Sophie's slave (Jul 1, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Hey, [email protected]@K! What's that? OH! It's dead horse! Woohoo! Let's beat on it some more!
> 
> Sorry. Couldn't resist.


LOL!! 

I've said it before, but...Sophie's best buddy was an AmStaff (the state dog of of Hawaii). They could chew highly valued fresh marrow bones,side by side, with never a cross word between them. When Mahea finished first, and she always did, she would hover over Sophie, waiting for the opportunity to steal hers and when she did, and she always did, Sophie just moved over to the one Mahea had been chewing originally. Mahealani is a great dog, obtained as a puppy from the Humane Society and nurtured into a valued family member, loved by all. I disagree that very few owners of bully breeds are responsible pet owners - you just hear about the bad ones.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

fostermom said:


> I totally disagree with the first part of your post. They do have a place being a pet. The breed bashing is really sad. Did anyone look at Hotel4Dog's poll? How many of those dogs who bit someone was a pit bull? Last time I looked, zero. Might have changed since then, but the majority seemed to be GSDs. But nobody is saying that they should not be "pets" or owned by inexperienced or irresponsible owners. Though I do agree that irresponsible owners should not have dogs in the first place.


 
I fail to see the value as a pet of a breed that is bred for fighting. It is not "breed bashing", it's reality. 
I absolutely agree that irresponsible people shouldn't have dogs - or even hamsters - in the first place. It is a worse case scenariol, however, when the breed is as potentially dangerous as pit bulls. That is just a fact. 
As for Hotel4Dog's poll, it's hardly telling, frankly. Pit bull ownership seems to be concentrated in rather specific areas, and it's likely that those who responded were not in areas populated with them. Additionally, many of the stories of the bites were from many years ago, and pit bulls have become more popular within the last 10 or 15 in most areas.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sophie's slave said:


> LOL!!
> 
> I've said it before, but...Sophie's best buddy was an AmStaff (the state dog of of Hawaii). They could chew highly valued fresh marrow bones,side by side, with never a cross word between them. When Mahea finished first, and she always did, she would hover over Sophie, waiting for the opportunity to steal hers and when she did, and she always did, Sophie just moved over to the one Mahea had been chewing originally. Mahealani is a great dog, obtained as a puppy from the Humane Society and nurtured into a valued family member, loved by all. I disagree that very few owners of bully breeds are responsible pet owners - you just hear about the bad ones.


You do hear about the bad ones, yes. But as for the majority being responsible, I definately disagree. In a previous thread about the same issue, I posted the numbers of APBT that were in the OFA databases as having clearances, as well as disputed the claim that APBT's had the highest number of dogs passing temperament testing. The truth is that as many pit bull as are out there, only a tiny percentage are being bred with health clearances and temperament testing. That offers a very clear idea as to the responsibility of most owners.
To clarify, I am not referring to purebred Am Staffs, but to APBT's (and the large number of pit bull mixes).


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## mary624 (Jul 11, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Additionally, many of the stories of the bites were from many years ago, and pit bulls have become more popular within the last 10 or 15 in most areas.


This is the best site about dog bites, canine homicides, etc..

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

It's interesting and something all parents of children should read for sure.

I got my golden with my children in mind...he's a good dog, gentle and sweet...And I do feel safe with him with the kids.

mary


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

PG, you have never had anything but negatives to say about Pit Bulls. You have made it clear where you stand on them. And knowning how you are with your opinion, you won't stop until you get the last word. I had to jump in on this thread after ignoring it for 16 pages because I get tired of the breed bashing. I have been around many Pit Bulls. We have tons of them here. In the wrong hands, any dog, including a Golden can become aggressive. But all of the ones I have met have been very sweet, big smiling, kissy dogs. And yes, I am willing to put my face down there for them to kiss me. I am not afraid that they will bite me.

I am very disturbed right now that yet another pit bull bashing thread has been allowed here. But it also doesn't surprise me. I am done with this thread.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't believe we can really understand dog attacks and fatalities without looking at the circumstances of the attack. When we focus on breed, we lose our perspective.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

fostermom said:


> PG, you have never had anything but negatives to say about Pit Bulls. You have made it clear where you stand on them. And knowning how you are with your opinion, you won't stop until you get the last word. I had to jump in on this thread after ignoring it for 16 pages because I get tired of the breed bashing. I have been around many Pit Bulls. We have tons of them here. In the wrong hands, any dog, including a Golden can become aggressive. But all of the ones I have met have been very sweet, big smiling, kissy dogs. And yes, I am willing to put my face down there for them to kiss me. I am not afraid that they will bite me.
> 
> I am very disturbed right now that yet another pit bull bashing thread has been allowed here. But it also doesn't surprise me. I am done with this thread.


I've said that I have been around pit bulls that have been fine, and that I have liked. But they are more the exception than the rule. Their lack of predictability, which even _responsible _pit bull breeders/owners acknowlege, is a problem. We do not disagree that any breed of dog can be aggressive. But it is just fact that some are far more predisposed to it than others, and breeds bred specifically as fighting dogs are definately going to be. This really isn't "bashing". 
I feel very nearly the same way about Akitas. I've shown and finished many, and had several living with me and traveling with me regularly. I was nev er as concerned about them with people as I was about other dogs - they too are a fighting breed. And I handled for a woman whose dogs were fairly "soft" in temperament (at the time a source of debate - purists argued that they were getting "too soft"...) but they still were unpredictable around other dogs, and I was unwilling to put my other client's dogs at risk.


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## Sophie's slave (Jul 1, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> You do hear about the bad ones, yes. But as for the majority being responsible, I definately disagree. In a previous thread about the same issue, I posted the numbers of APBT that were in the OFA databases as having clearances, as well as disputed the claim that APBT's had the highest number of dogs passing temperament testing. The truth is that as many pit bull as are out there, only a tiny percentage are being bred with health clearances and temperament testing. That offers a very clear idea as to the responsibility of most owners.
> To clarify, I am not referring to purebred Am Staffs, but to APBT's (and the large number of pit bull mixes).


I misspoke, PG. Mahea is an AmStaff mix. And I believe that those who breed and perpetuate any dog, golden, GSD, boxers, etc., should be held to a higher standard and absolutely should obtain clearances and should breed with the betterment of the dogs in mind. People like me, who have no experience at all with breeding or showing, have no business whatsoever in owning an unaltered dog - and I don't. 

My Sophie came from BYBs who also happened to be very close friends. Sophie came with a whole host of genetic issues, from bad hips to allergies, and I spent the rest of my time in Hawaii trying to talk my friends out of breeding their dog again...thankfully, with success. Mahealani is also altered and never bred. I guess my point, in a roundabout, rambling kind of way, is that there are large numbers of us out there who are very responsible and who don't, and would never, breed.

But you're right, if people weren't irresponsibly breeding, there would not be the huge numbers of bully breeds out there. My comments are anecdotal, since happily, my experiences with bully breeds has been overwhelmingly positive. 

And I certainly don't think you or anyone else has been bashing bullies!


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

fostermom said:


> PG, you have never had anything but negatives to say about Pit Bulls. You have made it clear where you stand on them. And knowning how you are with your opinion, you won't stop until you get the last word. I had to jump in on this thread after ignoring it for 16 pages because I get tired of the breed bashing. I have been around many Pit Bulls. We have tons of them here. In the wrong hands, any dog, including a Golden can become aggressive. But all of the ones I have met have been very sweet, big smiling, kissy dogs. And yes, I am willing to put my face down there for them to kiss me. I am not afraid that they will bite me.
> 
> I am very disturbed right now that yet another pit bull bashing thread has been allowed here. But it also doesn't surprise me. I am done with this thread.


:appl::appl::appl:

I agree. I think it's so sad that there's so much animosity for a breed of dog. The ONLY reason pitbulls and pitbull mixes are the way they are is because of human beings. 

I dogsat for a friend who had 2 labs and a pitbull. The labs fought tooth and nail with each other and would get extremely vicious. Franky, the pit, never got involved. She was as sweet as sugar. Now I know many pitbulls are vicious, but to condemn the whole breed as not worthy of being a pet is ridiculous and unfair.

Anyhow, whatever. This thread is sad.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

This discussion is done here about pit bulls being bad or good. Some of us have had good experiences with them and some of us have had bad experience so there will never be an agreement about them on this forum. Keep it civil and remember the forum rules (FAQS). 

The issue here is about rictic and his feeling unsafe with that dog around. I pray and hope that he contacted authorities and something is being done to remove the dog, because it does look like one of the banned breeds and a dangerous dog. I have done alot of reading this week about the laws over there and it all sounded like to me that the authorities dont play about the banned breeds, so that should work in his favor. Hopefully once things settle down Dave will come back and tell us what happened. His wife is still a member so she could post if she wants.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Let's try some perspective here, may I?

In 2008 there were about 23 dog bite related fatalities. How many pit bulls or pit bulls mixes do we have in our country? I'm reading about 4.5 million registered and probably at least that many that aren't or are mixes. Seriously? That many? 

I am not for or against pit bulls. I happen to be afraid of them myself, but I'm afraid of most dogs. I just think it's important to remember that not all pit bulls or pit bull mixes fall into the same category. There's obviously a huge number of pit bull type dogs out there that never make the press.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

BeauShel said:


> This discussion is done here about pit bulls being bad or good. Some of us have had good experiences with them and some of us have had bad experience so there will never be an agreement about them on this forum. Keep it civil and remember the forum rules (FAQS).
> 
> The issue here is about rictic and his feeling unsafe with that dog around. I pray and hope that he contacted authorities and something is being done to remove the dog, because it does look like one of the banned breeds and a dangerous dog. I have done alot of reading this week about the laws over there and it all sounded like to me that the authorities dont play about the banned breeds, so that should work in his favor. Hopefully once things settle down Dave will come back and tell us what happened. His wife is still a member so she could post if she wants.


http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

Plenty of reasons to feel unsafe. The number of fatal bites caused by 1. pit bulls, and 2. Rottweillers, are disproportionately high. This is not bashing. 


"In recent years, the dogs responsible for the bulk of the homicides are pit bulls and Rottweilers:
"Studies indicate that pit bull-type dogs were involved in approximately a third of human DBRF (i.e., dog bite related fatalities) reported during the 12-year period from 1981 through1992, and Rottweilers were responsible for about half of human DBRF reported during the 4 years from 1993 through 1996....[T]he data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities." (Sacks JJ, Sinclair L, Gilchrist J, Golab GC, Lockwood R. Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998. JAVMA 2000;217:836-840.) ​The Clifton study of attacks from 1982 through 2006 produced similar results. According to Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes were responsible for 65% of the canine homicides that occurred during a period of 24 years in the USA. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here to read it.)"


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html
> 
> Plenty of reasons to feel unsafe. The number of fatal bites caused by 1. pit bulls, and 2. Rottweillers, are disproportionately high. This is not bashing.
> 
> ...


I don't need statistics to tell whether or not I have a ''good'' dog.

Does anyone else find it strange that Otis Mommy has not commented yet? Maybe they both are through with the forum?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Does banning the user ban the ip address? If so neither of them can get on the board.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

No banning the member does not ban the ip address.


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## sasha's mum (Nov 24, 2008)

i have been following this and would like to just say i do understand where Dave is coming from, i hsve met him and Wendy lovely people, sasha had a great time playing with otis, i hope he is back with us soon, on the question of BAD DOGS, i had a good few years ago and golden retiever that was odd to say the least from day one, if i think back when i went to meet the pups their mum was very growly and snappy, should have run alarm bells, but i had just lost my first retiever freeway and was desperate for another dog, 18 months later we had to have him put to sleep as he had biten everyone in our home and then while we were out walking he bite a small child, enough that she needed to have hospital treatment, my son then was only 6 months old, i rang my vet told her what had happened and she said he must go, and within 2 hours she had come and taken him away, what im trying to get over is every breed can turn for whatever reason, i will never ever trust any dog 100%, just some breeds tend to be more scary than others


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Fostermum, I feel I need to defend Pointgold here, because at no time have I felt she was breed bashing. She has made it very clear her view on owning dogs that were bred for fighting, and I have to say I agree 100% with her!

I would be very happy if any dog bred for this purpose was banned in the UK. In my opinion, they have no place in a domestic setting. Of course there will be some who are sweet natured, but as Wagondog said earlier in this thread about his beloved Rottie, no matter how they are raised, it isn't always enough (I'm SO SORRY for what happened with him by the way, that must have been so terrible for you!).

We have the same problem here with a huge number of bully breeds (especially Staffy's) being bred by anyone who fancies a litter. They just put two dogs together to produce pups. Not a second thought is put into the temperament of the parents, whether they have health issues. The result is a large number of large crosses and bad tempered/temperament bully breeds running around our open spaces. After my dog was pinned down by two whilst I was walking him on the lead, the owner a young lad who didn't give a hoot, I felt hopeless - and angry!!

If there was some regulation on the breeding practices, whereby only registered parents with health clearances were bred from, then I wouldn't have such a problem with them. Put that kind of potential in the wrong hands (too often that IS the case!) and the result can be dangerous!

If you go to any dog shelter here in the UK, the predominant breeds will be staffordshire bull terriers and other bully/guarding breeds. This should tell you something about the mentality surrounding dog ownership of these breeds. I kid you not, I've looked many times at their websites, especially in inner-city areas.

The government has tried to get to grips with the aggressive breed problem, but I think it could go much further, especially in inner city areas. People have these breeds for protection as well as anything else, and if they're aggressive then all the better!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

fostermom said:


> I totally disagree with the first part of your post. They do have a place being a pet. The breed bashing is really sad. Did anyone look at Hotel4Dog's poll? How many of those dogs who bit someone was a pit bull? Last time I looked, zero. Might have changed since then, but the majority seemed to be GSDs. But nobody is saying that they should not be "pets" or owned by inexperienced or irresponsible owners. Though I do agree that irresponsible owners should not have dogs in the first place.


I think this thread has gone off-topic in several different directions, but I have to throw my two cents in here.

I _absolutely_ would say that GSDs should NOT be the dog of choice for the inexperienced. I would say the same for Rotties, Akitas, Dobies, the Bouvais, and many many others. Yes, every dog is different and any dog can be dangerous in the wrong hands, but I don't think it's 'breed bashing' to say that certain breeds are more LIKELY to be dangerous than others.

And I don't think anyone here who is trying to support rictic would feel any differently if it were a GSD (or any other breed) that he felt threatened by.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

Tanyac, Rotts and fighting dogs have nothing to do with each other.

I have to say that the people who say fighting dogs should not be pets most likely don't know anything about dog fighting history nor lived with a fighting breed. Specifically pit bulls.

Most people don't like to point out that the APBT have been here almost as long as the United States is young, and I find it interesting that they have been here for over one hundred years, but this bad reputation started about twenty or so years ago, when people started breeding them willy neely. When most people think ''fighting dog'' they see a snarling beast trying to attack anything it sees. They would be surprise to hear that, even in the pit, the only sounds you could hear where the people cheering. Rarely the dogs made a sound. People also don't know that, in between the fights, people separated the dogs with little fear of redirection. That was penalized. Also, have anyone thought about what fighting dogs do when they are not in the pit. Surprise, surprise, some dogs were are at home playing with children. Fighting dogs WERE family pets, and they make great ones because of their high pain tolerance and their huge affection for kids. It is hard to imagine a scarred dog playing dress up with kids, but that is what happen. These dogs were also put to work as hog hunters, and they also were farm dogs. 

I'm not going to get into the whole history but I think it is good to point out if pit bulls were so dangerous, than wouldn't they always have had a bad reputation. And what makes them so different as pets? All dogs can be DA, and there are a great number of breeds that the potential is higher for it including the APBT. They are very smart, probably smarter than average, but that couldn't be it. They are very powerful, but there are many powerful breeds. So what, huh. I am still trying to figure it out. Right now, my APBT is laying on somebody lap as I type and I really can't see how raising him is any different from raising any other dog.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahla9999 said:


> Tanyac, Rotts and fighting dogs have nothing to do with each other.
> 
> I have to say that the people who say fighting dogs should not be pets most likely don't know anything about dog fighting history nor lived with a fighting breed. Specifically pit bulls.
> 
> ...


 
We are talking about Pit Bulls _today. _Most that _are _bred "willy nilly", and are owned by a greater number of the general pupblic than they were before (long before you were born, I'm guessing - you might be what, 18? 19? ). 

More contradictions, Tahla, in that you are saying here that raising your now approximately 1 year old dog is no different than raising any other, when you yourself have so many times said that not everyone can handle a PB, and that they need to be handled differently ie rotating them in crates when with other dogs...

They are different, Tahla.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> We are talking about Pit Bulls _today. _Most that _are _bred "willy nilly", and are owned by a greater number of the general pupblic than they were before (long before you were born, I'm guessing - you might be what, 18? 19? ).
> 
> More contradictions, Tahla, in that you are saying here that raising your now approximately 1 year old dog is no different than raising any other, when you yourself have so many times said that not everyone can handle a PB, and that they need to be handled differently ie rotating them in crates when with other dogs...
> 
> They are different, Tahla.


LOL. We are NOT the only people who do crate and rotation, and that is only done when the dogs don't like each other. We as pit bull owners don't leave two pit bulls together alone, but we are not the only ones who do so. Many bully and terrier owners will not keep their dogs together alone. Not only them, other people of all breeds will not leave there dogs together alone.

I am not saying everyone should go get a pit bull because they are easy, they are for the experience, but that does not make them different. I would not recommend a GSD to anyone, nor a patterdale, nor an Akita.

With the pit bulls of today there are a lot of bad ones obviously, but I still don't believe the there are more bad than good. I lived in poorer areas for most of my life, and pit bulls were plenty. Yet, I never met an aggressive one.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

Even here, most people bad experience with pit bulls came from them attacking their dogs, not them.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I just spent a little time reading some interesting posts on the Pit Bull Forum. Relating to pit bull owners killing their own dogs because they went from being sweet pets to killing each other, about how much work and responsibility it is to safely keep pit bulls, and that they can "turn" at any moment, how difficult they are to contain, etc etc. These are posts from pb owners. Sounds like a fun pet.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Tahla, how many pit bulls, including pit bull mixes, do we have in the United States? Was the number I referenced in my earlier post correct? 4.5 million registered and at least that many unregistered? That seems like a lot to me, but that's what I read.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

And add to the mix that with irresponsible owners, many of these dogs are roaming city streets. This is a very real problem in Dallas . There is a certain population where these dogs are the "in" thing.... a status symbol. This same population hasn't proven ( in my area) to be educated, concerned owners. All a recipe for disaster.... and innocent people HAVE been hurt and even killed as a result.

Again, I reference a simple google search......http://www.google.com/search?source..._enUS222US222&q=pit+bull+attacks+in+dallas+tx


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

Agree to disagree. We would never agree on this.:no:


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> Tahla, how many pit bulls, including pit bull mixes, do we have in the United States? Was the number I referenced in my earlier post correct? 4.5 million registered and at least that many unregistered? That seems like a lot to me, but that's what I read.


Yes, that seem about right. So many people don't register their pit bulls.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

So then, in 2008 there were approximately 9 million pit bull type dogs in the United States. There were 23 dog bite related fatalities.

That's 0.0000025% of the pit bull population, and actually it's less than that because of those 23 deaths, not all of them were from pit bulls.

I don't even know how to say that % in words ... except to say it's extremely miniscule.

Just wanted to throw this out there. Perspective is good


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

I just re-read my last post and it may appear I put Rotweillers amongst fighting breeds. Indeed I am aware they were not bred as fighting dogs, I believe they were originally bred to herd and guard.

I was relating to Wagondog's painfull story about how a strong powerful breed can suddenly turn, even though it was a well bred, well educated and reared dog.

My issue is with indescriminate breeding and the status of those owning fighting breeds (why we are hung up on ABPT here I don't really know!!) Those who own sweet natured fighting breeds who never in their lives hurt a fly or intimidated or scared another dog or human can love them for what they are, a loving member of their family.

BUT that isn't what we're talking about here, that's just the problem!

I will say it again, I don't feel there is any place in a civilised society for fighting breeds.

I saw a documentary on Afghanistan fighting dogs, these huge mastif type dogs, who were highly prized and lived lives of riley, except once a week, they were taken to the gathering place, bets placed, and then they had to fight!! Sorry, but it made me sick to my stomach!!!!!!!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Not all dog bites are reported. And MANY pit bull bites/attacks/incidents are not because the owners do not want their dogs confiscated.
This refers to both dog/human, dog/dog incidents.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

tanyac said:


> I just re-read my last post and it may appear I put Rotweillers amongst fighting breeds. Indeed I am aware they were not bred as fighting dogs, I believe they were originally bred to herd and guard.
> 
> I was relating to Wagondog's painfull story about how a strong powerful breed can suddenly turn, even though it was a well bred, well educated and reared dog.
> 
> ...


http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?t=13984


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

But that holds true for all breeds, not just pit bull type dogs. 

I'm quite sure, however, that all human dog bite related fatalities are reported. And that was the only point I was trying to make. By far, the vast majority of pit bulls do not kill people.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

I hate that forum. In the online pit bull community, there are all types of people there, even dog matching lovers. I avoid that forum due to many extremist views. The one I go to is focus on rescue.


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## Cam's Mom (Apr 13, 2007)

> And I don't think anyone here who is trying to support rictic would feel any differently if it were a GSD (or any other breed) that he felt threatened by.


On the contrary, the whole reason this thread is off topic is BECAUSE many people feel that rictics fear is because the dog involved is PBT type, that his fear is justified precisely because it is a PBT type, and that his fear/reaction would not be so great if it was another breed.

As in many other topics on this forum, the views are expressed dogmatically. Black and white, with grey excluded. Life is full of grey areas. Very few subjects are black or white.

You're more likely to *die* (US data)from gunshot about 30,000 a year (but guns are not banned) a car accident 37,435(2007, but cars are not banned) or from drowning 3,800(as a small child aged 1-4 in particular) than a fatal dog attack 33 (in 2007).

I agree dog attacks are frightening, and I've seen the end results of many very nasty pitbull maulings of other dogs. But, your neighbors car backing out of the driveway, a drunk teenage driver, a gun under the pillow, or unfenced pool is a much greater threat to your family.

In all instances education is a way of reducing fatalities. Constant, unrelenting education. 

I feel sad for Rictic. His fear is very real, and I would not like to be in his shoes whether the threat is real or perceived. The talk from his new neighbor could be real or bravado because he himself feels threatened (by society) and his dog picks up on his fear.


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## rosemary (Jul 7, 2007)

tanyac said:


> BTW Rose, I LOVED your story about Arnie nibbling on that man's parts... what a clever boy!!! I needed a giggle....


it definitley wasnt a nibble lol and there was nothing the bloke could do


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## rosemary (Jul 7, 2007)

sigh yawn all this bickering isgetting realllly booooring


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## goldguy (Apr 6, 2008)

Tahla9999 said:


> Agree to disagree. We would never agree on this.:no:


Just wondering...do you have a Golden Retriever?


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

Just wanted to make clear I was not commenting on what is being said in that thread, I was commenting on the forum as a whole.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> But that holds true for all breeds, not just pit bull type dogs.
> 
> I'm quite sure, however, that all human dog bite related fatalities are reported. And that was the only point I was trying to make. By far, the vast majority of pit bulls do not kill people.


 
However, the majority of dog bite fatalities are caused by pit bulls.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

You know, there is no point in commenting on this topic anymore. I'm just going to wait until Rictic comes back( if he does) other than that it is just a waste of time.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

goldguy said:


> Just wondering...do you have a Golden Retriever?


Do you have a golden retriever? Not that it matters to me, but if we are asking....


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Are you sure it's not rottweilers? I'd have to look at some statistics. From what I was reading last night, rottweilers are right up there. In 1997-98, they killed more people than pit bulls (10 vs 6).


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## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

Well, this is my take and then I'm probably done with this. And, maybe this is breed bashing on my part - I don't know. There's just so much fear built up in people regarding PT. Right or wrong - fact.

I've heard (again, right or wrong - fact that it's what I've heard) that their jaws are extremely powerful and once latched on they don't give up. Look at those powerful heads - the all muscular bodies but particularly their jaws.

Yes, I'm frightened of them. Wrong word - terrified. Plain and simple. So, they're outlawed in the UK. Anyone wonder why? There's a reason. And, yes, Jo, the amount of attacks reported are miniscuel compared to the amount of PT owned. And, I know dogs can tell if you're scared of them. They may be given a bad rap, I don't know. But, I don't want one next door or anywhere on my walking route. GENERALLY speaking - present company excepted - in my observations, there's a certain type of person who owns a pit bull. A "bully" type person who wants to put off a certain "thing". Only my observations and only my feelings. I'm profiling and I just can't help it. I'm sorry.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Tahla9999 said:


> You know, there is no point in commenting on this topic anymore. I'm just going to wait until Rictic comes back( if he does) other than that it is just a waste of time.


I agree. Me too, I'm done with this thread.

Tahla, you show a good deal of wisdom, for a wee one


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Cam's Mom said:


> On the contrary, the whole reason this thread is off topic is BECAUSE many people feel that rictics fear is because the dog involved is PBT type.....
> ......and that his fear/reaction would not be so great if it was another breed.


That, I agree with. 



Cam's Mom said:


> ....that his fear is justified precisely because it is a PBT type...


I really don't like to speak for others, but I can't believe that any of us who consider his fear to be justified would feel differently, or take the situation lighter, if it were another breed in question. A dangerous dog is a dangerous dog. Yeah, I know many people just don't care for 'Pits' in general. I happen to be one of them. But whether that's right or wrong, I think most of us would be just as understanding and concerned for him if he were living next to a dangerous GSD, Rottie, whatever. 




Cam's Mom said:


> As in many other topics on this forum, the views are expressed dogmatically. Black and white, with grey excluded. Life is full of grey areas. Very few subjects are black or white.
> 
> You're more likely to *die* (US data)from gunshot about 30,000 a year (but guns are not banned) a car accident 37,435(2007, but cars are not banned) or from drowning 3,800(as a small child aged 1-4 in particular) than a fatal dog attack 33 (in 2007).
> 
> ...


Statistics are funny things. They, themselves, are very black and white and don't often tell the whole story. 
Yes, _in general_, you may be more likely to get hit by a drunk driver, be shot or drown. But they don't tell whether it's more likely for someone _living next door_ to a dangerous dog to be in a car accident or get attacked by that dog. I would imagine those statistics might paint a different picture.


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

I have not comented on this thread as it has gone way off topic, but I would just like to say whatever everyones views, Tahla9999 I take my hat off to you as you have show compasion for Daves situation trying to get his ban lifted to find out that Otis and the family are okay, even though you have a pb and take a lot of stick for it.
Thank you.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

I have not spent much time on the forum lately and missed the original post and do not know where to find it. and I have only read about 10 pges scattered this this thread.

First of all I LOVE dogs, opted for a puppy over a watch for my 11th birthday. I hae localed owners of stray dogs thru their rabies tag or ID tag and was able to reunite the dogs with owners. I took in a stray colorless Irish Setter back in '78 or 77 never dund his owner and me became, as hubby called him, "Sandra's Shadow as I was nver out of his site for the 8 years we had him. 

Back in '88 we went fishing but never got our lines "wet" as we came upon a sketeton of a dog who miracle of miracles, wa still alive. We took a chance of beng kicked ut of our renthouse by taking her home and caring for her secretly for 3 months and then giving her to a no-kill shelter. It was in our lease one dog and we already had Boots. Had we already bought this house, we would have kept that ittle terrier mix that we simply called Girl. I took in and cared for and found a good home for a young pointer pup about 5 years ago.

I cry seeing dead dog on the sid of the road. I cry at the conditon/les lead by dogs on Animal Cop shoes and this inclues any breed, I have shed many tears on this forum and othersat news of death of one of your dogs, cance or othr serious illness. But I would in a heart beat kill any dog that attacked one of mine and appeard to not cease the aggressiive attack. 

There was that pit bull that tried to attack 11 1/2 year old bad eyesight Buck...who was on leash on sidewalk being walked by hubby. Hubby got between them and luckily the dog ignored him and the dogs ownr came running--he happned to be in the front yard--and grabbed his dog's collar, all the time saying he didn't know how the dog got out. There was no way to get off our horse shoe shaped street with no side streets without that dog seeing us if it was out again. We did o walk our dogs again til that family moved.

There was the pit bulls in the ward catty corner to ours--our fences meet with a space due to utility pole--who were always rying at get at KayCee and Hone thru that little gap, snaling n carrying on. One day they did mangeto dig under the pricacy fence behind us and Linda barely got her foster dogs to safety before they got under the fence. She called animal crontrol, they came out, find out it was pit bulls, and did nothing. Sh had to wait til owners got home late thatafternoon to get their dogs ou of her yard.

Had they gotten hold of either of my girls thru the fence I would have shot them over the fence. My girls dtopped going to that corner of the yard. As of right now there is a big black dog, breed unknown to me, behind about 1/4 of our yard (pie shaped lot on curve, ) that races to the fence snarling and carrying on if he hears Honey anywhere nar the fence. She seldom goes there now, and even tho the pits a the totaly other end of the yard have long gone, she still doesn not go here either. 

So, any dog, any breed that attacks my dog, unprovoked, is in danger of being killed by me, regardless of my love for dogs. My dog comes first.

PS I have no idea of language used and I was riased that even **** is not a word to be used. But I admit, if I get very terrified or extremely angry, I have been know to stick in stronger words than that!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Whether the people on the Pit Bull forum are "extreme" or not, the interesting thing is that the prevailing attitude is that they are realistic, and do not sugar coat what the breed is. They also express concerns about how so many rescues do a disservice to the breed by placing dogs with inexperienced and even first time dog owners. Saying that only one pit bull placed through rescue to the right home is much better than placing 10 to the wrong homes. But they want to place _more._

Interesting viewpoints from pit bull owners with many years of experience with the breed.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

This has become a discussion about PBs attacking humans, but that is not the jist of Rictic's original problem. He was afraid the dog was going to attack Otis, his puppy. Regardless of whether PBs are more or less likely to attack humans than any other breed, they are more likely to attack other dogs. It is what they were bred to do and the dog's owner stated that the dog was aggressive to other animals. Given that the dog was known to be aggressive to other animals and was lose in the garden at least once, I believe Rictic's fears were justified.

I agree with PG and others that given the nature both of living patterns (frequently in very close quarters) and the state of PBs today (almost always poorly bred), PBs do not have a place in modern society. I do not allow them in my dog park (I also exclude Akitas, Chows and other fighting breeds such as American Bulldogs) and have lost potential members due to my policy, but I am continuely shocked that people who own PBs know so little about their breed that they would want to join.


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

I have phoned Dave tonight but he was out and being the numpty I am didnt ask Wendy if all was well, but feel sure if anything major was kicking off she would have said, as I did say people were worried, Wendy said to phone back tomorrow after 2pm UK time.
Will post after I have spoken to Dave unless his ban is over before that and he posts.

But am sure he will appreciate all the support he has had on this thread.

Just a shame it all went a little off topic.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I can't wait to read his first post!


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

Hmmm I tried to phone Dave first off I couldnt hear him so I phoned and left a message to say I would call again in a few mins.

When I called back I heard a couple of beeps then Daves voice saying to someone my dial code then he said I wont bother answering then if he intended me to hear that or not I dont know, but I must admit it shook me up a bit.

Needles to say I wont be calling back.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Honeysmum,

I'm so sorry you had to hear that. What comes to my mind is, "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished." Thank you for caring enough to call him. You tried...


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

I hope all is well there........


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## marleysmummy (Jul 11, 2008)

Honeysmum, so sorry that happened, especially when you were being a friend.

Maybe he is finished with the forum and wants no more contact, although I think there are far nicer ways to say that!

Hope you're OK. HUGS.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

That is disconcerting... Perhaps he has no idea the support and concern that most forum members have, and thought maybe there was going to be more chastising. Either way, I'm sorry that you heard that. 
I just hope that they are all okay.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm sure he knows he has the support of every member here, as long as he doesn't start talking about killing the dog with rat poison. That's where I drew the line with my support. Obviously some members have a tougher time with that than others. 

After saying that to Tracey though, I'm not sure I appreciate this man at all. 

Period. Nothing more for me to say.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

That message is incredibly rude and uncalled for. I have stayed out of this thread completely, but to attack someone who called out of concern for the family living next to a potentially dangerous dog is beyond rude.

I have nothing more to say and regret having ever even started reading this thread.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

OK Dave, that's fine, you may think it is an intrusion, and that's your right.

But for the record, I had your telephone number, as has Honeysmum, and it could well have been me who called you to ask if all was well. As you know, we have both spoken to you previously when you needed help on other issues and I can speak for Tracey when I say she had your best interests at heart. Would you have spoken to me in the same manner???

We spoke last night on the phone, and agreed Tracey would call, but it could just have well been a call from me.

So to insult the person who in this instance is representing the forum you have chosen to make yourself a member of, have asked advice and shared experiences with us all, when all she/we wanted to do was make sure you were all alright, is beyond me.

Carry on Dave, in your own sweet way, you will never have my support again, I feel sad you don't see anyone on here as friends... 

There are other things I want to say but I wouldn't stoop that low... naaa!!!!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Jackson'sMom said:


> That message is incredibly rude and uncalled for. I have stayed out of this thread completely, but to attack someone who called out of concern for the family living next to a potentially dangerous dog is beyond rude.
> 
> I have nothing more to say and regret having ever even started reading this thread.


 
I so agree. Time for this thread and topic to be CLOSED. This isn't the tone of comraderie that GRF is all about.


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

Dave
I don't know you, I only knew of your situation and had concerns for your safety as well as the safety of your family and dog. I started this thread in that regard and I am just a little disappointed that rather than thank the many GRF members for their support you chose to post what you posted. I'm done and you enjoy your day!


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## FranH (May 8, 2005)

Time to close this.


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