# Hunt and Field Training Plans for the Week of Sept. 2-8



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

We are heading off to National tomorrow, so no training for us.

What's everyone working on this week?


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Good luck at the Nationals


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I am working Jige in a new field that is giving him some issues. The terrain is very hilly. We will contintue to work here while he perfects his marks. Yesterday they were better than 2 days ago soI dont think it will take him long. I started him on blinds yesterday too. We did only one warm blind and it was very good. Today I will try 2 with him. Also perfecting our doubles.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Best of luck to all at Nationals!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

OK I gotta ask
"Warm blind"?


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Oh I suppose you would. I dont know what you experts call them but that it what we call them here. It is a bird that is throw straight up from the bird boy. Your dog watches the bird fall. You then walk your dog away wait a few minutes then walk back up to the start and send your dog on a back. 

I guess this my last post you guys are ........


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Unless the post was edited before I saw it, I thought Anney asked a legitimate question. Different areas of the country apparently use different names for different things. We would call that a memory mark, not a blind. No big deal, I've been asked quite a few times what I was talking about when I named a drill or something.
Be nice guys.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

See and I think I've heard those called pop-up blinds here...or maybe a pop-up blind is when the dog is already sent and you pop-up and drop the bird halfway for confidence building. Hmm...


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

It sounds like there is some confusion between a pre-identified blind, and a pop-up blind; not the same things...at all.

One popular training program pre-identifies (pattern) blinds by bringing a dog to the line, and having a bird boy/helper toss a bumper or bird to the spot of the blind to identify the location. They then take the dog off line, and return later to run it.

A pop-up blind is a cold blind that is not planted in advance. Often, this type of blind is one that had all the technical merit a judge desired except for an acceptable "end". Once the dog has negotiated the route, the bird boy is cued to toss out a bird to a pre-determined spot (often just open water) to allow the dog to finish the blind. For a dog with a poor blind running attitude some trainers use them to entice the dog to expect better outcomes on blinds, and hopefully promote a better attitude. I don't buy such measures in poor attitude cases, but for rare occasions, but it's used for that fairly often.

EvanG


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

5o me, what General V describes sounds like our "sight blinds" where either we ourselves, or our birdboy training buddies plant the blind while the dog watches. Except we don't throw them, we hold them out and very obviously drop them on the ground. Then the person hides, or we go back to the dog and I believe the purpose is to teach the meachanics of the "dead" lining, and sending routine.

Sounds like Jige's learning, that's great!

I haven't posted here in ages b/c my job which tethers me to a desk and commute makes it difficult to have any personal plans, plus I am burned out and have little ability to retain complex info or short term memory. But I have plugged at Gladys' drills as much as I could, returned to field class Tuesdays which helped me "get" and remember the drills, and continue to work on singles, doubles, delayed triples when training opportunities arise.

So this week .. continue drills, Tuesday class.
I also asked Frank to help me b/c my work schedule is holding Gladys back from her potential.
He took her for marks last week, not sure if he will take her this week. I wish I could be there, but someone has to support these dogs in the manner they're accustomed 


Last nights baseball (three piles, left and right over, and one back) was the first time she seemed to know over and back; I see were making progress and that gives me hope.

For a long time she was hesitant to go .. I stopped using the collar b/c I was worried she was afraid of making mistakes, she seemed confused about going, I also wondered if she was mixing it up with steady and not going without her name.

She's not a lazy dog and always honest, so hopefully the learning curve is kicking in


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

boomers_dawn said:


> 5o me, what General V describes sounds like our "sight blinds" where either we ourselves, or our birdboy training buddies plant the blind while the dog watches. Except we don't throw them, we hold them out and very obviously drop them on the ground. Then the person hides, or we go back to the dog and I believe the purpose is to teach the meachanics of the "dead" lining, and sending routine.


A sight blind is a destination the dog can see from its point of origin; the line. That is either because they can see white bumpers, or a white flag or cone, or some other visible marker at the spot (destination). It's just another variation of what are called 'pattern blinds'; the dog knows the end from the beginning. Their purpose is to get the dog to acknowledge the blind running cues, and to go to non-falls prior to beginning cold blinds.

Whether you throw a bumper to the pile, or drop it, you are pre-identifying the destination, and that's appropriate for pattern blinds.

EvanG


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

boomers_dawn said:


> 5o me, what General V describes sounds like our "sight blinds" where either we ourselves, or our birdboy training buddies plant the blind while the dog watches. Except we don't throw them, we hold them out and very obviously drop them on the ground. Then the person hides, or we go back to the dog and I believe the purpose is to teach the meachanics of the "dead" lining, and sending routine.


We call those show me blinds, can be used to build confidence in an inexperience dog.

I have been known to run Wishing and Hoping blinds, as in "Holly, you are just wishing and hoping she finds the blind. _Put a whistle on that dog._"


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hollyk said:


> We call those *show me blinds*, can be used to build confidence in an inexperience dog.


Yep, that's another name for them. It's the same dynamics; the dog knows the end from the beginning = pattern blind by another name.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

we generally call anything that sails thru the air in full view of the dog a mark, not a blind. Just different semantics.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

I thought sight blind is they see it, and pattern blind is they know where it is from doing over and over.

Like the time Gladys ran out of the car to the pattern blind ... without any collar, heeling to the line, lining, or sending her. :lol:


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Great discussion on terms. No Barb I didn't edit my post. I seriously have never heard the term "warm blind" -- and had visions of the handler doing something akin to "you're getting waaaarrrrmmmeerrrrr......" getting his dog to the bird LOL

There is a reason 99% of the professional trainers and successful amateurs use the modern Rex Carr/Mike Lardy flowchart to progress through basics and transition to gain a handling dog.....................

"Show me" blinds are not something I've ever done. If you progress through the flowchart they really don't have a place. A mark is a mark and if a dog sees someone deposit a bumper on the ground, well....it ain't a blind. It might mimic a blind but it won't help your dog run blinds. JMO

Progress through a program, don't reinvent the wheel....

We got to Purina Farms today, will set up the booth tomorrow. Hotel is OK, the town has NOTHING in it.....


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

Totally off topic to the thread but I was finally able to get Remy back out with my training club after a LOOOOOOONGGGG 3 month hiatus! I've been working every weekend and finally got one off so you know I had to take him out to training! Starting in Oct I'll have every Sun off so I'm hoping to be going much more often. He really stunned me with how well he did today!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I will come find your booth today Anney!! So exciting!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> we generally call anything that sails thru the air in full view of the dog a mark, not a blind. Just different semantics.


Not really semantics, unless we get lost in terms. The idea behind identifying piles and/or pre-taught blinds (by any name) is so the dog will know the end from the beginning. That is why all of these many different names for pre-taught blinds lead to the same results. They help get the blind game going, and provide some confidence in that process for developing dogs. They do not train dogs to run effective blinds because they cannot do that on their own. They can only get the ball rolling.

At some point the dog simply must run real (cold) blinds in order to get good at them. A real blind is such because the dog does not know the end from the beginning, and that requires a stark contrast in mindset. That dog must trust your line, and your casts. When he already knows where he's going he doesn't have to do that.

Whether you drop a bumper into a pile, or toss one, you have merely identified it. That is not a mark, nor does it contain the triggers that identify it as a mark; a gunshot and fallen bird. That is why quality trainers don't have their bird boys fire a shot when doing pile ID, for example.

EvanG


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

EvanG said:


> Not really semantics, unless we get lost in terms. The idea behind identifying piles and/or pre-taught blinds (by any name) is so the dog will know the end from the beginning. That is why all of these many different names for pre-taught blinds lead to the same results. They help get the blind game going, and provide some confidence in that process for developing dogs. They do not train dogs to run effective blinds because they cannot do that on their own. They can only get the ball rolling.
> 
> EvanG


This is consistent with my understanding of the process and purpose.
Thanks Evan


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks Evan 

I am glad your opinion seems to agree with my thoughts that they do indeed have a place in training.

My understanding is that these sight-blinds (show me blinds etc) help build your dogs trust that there is something to be retrieved when they are sent and to begin to develop their memory. The building of that trust would be the most important aspect to me since trust takes just a moment to destroy and is well worth the time taken to build...




EvanG said:


> Not really semantics, unless we get lost in terms. The idea behind identifying piles and/or pre-taught blinds (by any name) is so the dog will know the end from the beginning. That is why all of these many different names for pre-taught blinds lead to the same results. They help get the blind game going, and provide some confidence in that process for developing dogs. They do not train dogs to run effective blinds because they cannot do that on their own. They can only get the ball rolling.
> 
> At some point the dog simply must run real (cold) blinds in order to get good at them. A real blind is such because the dog does not know the end from the beginning, and that requires a stark contrast in mindset. That dog must trust your line, and your casts. When he already knows where he's going he doesn't have to do that.
> 
> ...


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

You're absolutely right; they do have a place in retriever training. It's a very important place in progression, and sometimes even in maintenance, although it's rarely the best type of training after a dog has transitioned to cold blinds. But along the path to running blinds pattern-type/pre-taught blinds are very important.

EvanG


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

EvanG said:


> You're absolutely right; they do have a place in retriever training. It's a very important place in progression, and sometimes even in maintenance, although it's rarely the best type of training after a dog has transitioned to cold blinds. But along the path to running blinds pattern-type/pre-taught blinds are very important.
> 
> EvanG


Please note and distinguish that I said "show me" type blinds (dog sees bumpers dropped in a novel location, is brought back to re-run it) are not something I think are terribly valuable. NOT pattern blinds.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Please note and distinguish that I said "show me" type blinds (dog sees bumpers dropped in a novel location, is brought back to re-run it) are not something I think are terribly valuable. NOT pattern blinds.


If I understand what you're describing, you are "dropping" a bumper (wherever) in view of the dog to identify the location (end of blind, or destination), bringing the dog back later to run it. And that's what you're calling a "show me" blind", yes? If so, it's just another way of pre-identifying a blind location, much like others do in other ways isn't it?

About the only thing that identifies a pattern blind as distinct from any other pre-identified blinds is being part of a pattern; i.e. 3-leg, 5-leg, etc. They're all pre-identified blinds, and therefore are not real (cold) blinds. All can be useful, depending on how you use them and whether or not you over use them, as many do.

EvanG


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Worked our club's field trial all weekend. We had a double Open. I am trial secretary, and somehow I still ended up gunning all day Sunday (including throwing a mark from a canoe all afternoon, balanced on my knees because I was still in "floating" water), and then shooting on one station for the water test yesterday afternoon. Today we have big rainstorms on the tail end of that hurricane, so it looks like tomorrow will be my dogs' first chance to train this week.

On a cool note, one of the placers in the Saturday-Sunday trial was my friend's Golden Millpond Musket Man QFTR. He was the only Golden in a 47 dog entry and he came 3rd! Rory is a Rockerin Red River Ruckus son out of FTCH AFTCH Topbrass Smooth as Silk MH***.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Very cool! That's a good line.

EvanG


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

Yep Shelly, gotta love all that volunteer work. Not.

We had opportunity to do some marks yesterday w/ training buddy.
I don't think Gladys learned much, but she did good. 

My goal was to work on doubles, and steady.

In the first series, I meant to pick them up myself if she moved off her placeboard, but was so busy watching her and the double, I forgot, reheeled, and sent her. I guess it was no enormous deal, but it was a lost opportunity.

On the second series, I wanted to use the hills for concept, but training buddy was on a mission to do a hip pocket. I thought "those wingers are too close together" and made a mental note to do singles; but by the time I schlepped up and down the hill 3 times setting up and getting Gladys, I forgot to tell him, and off went the double.

The go bird was ok, but on the memory bird, poor Gladys started out ok, then seemed to remember the go bird (in her defense, it was way too close, and along the way to the memory bird, for her level of training)

I didn't want her back there, so sat her on the whistle and gave her a big fat OVER from quite a distance, which she took. She got in the right area, then ran around like a squirrel, adjacent fields and all. We bumbled through it by me moving up, sitting her, and directing her back to the correct area.

I don't think Gladys will be damaged for life, but it was a great lesson in pay attention pay attention pay attention and set your dog up for success.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

The learning curve continues.
We had class tonight, we did decheating drills.
Gladys is so quick, I try to blow the whistle before she's past trouble.
So tonight I read her as going the wrong way and stopped her, but he said twice I stopped her when she was going the right way, so I confused her.

I know I confuse her, have horrible timing, and make a ton of mistakes.
Last week he said he likes dogs that make mistakes b/c that's how they learn.
I must be turning into a genius.

Some of the other students said Gladys looks stubborn, she knows what I want, but doesn't want to do it.
I think she was confused. At least partially. Since I confuse her.

Learning pains!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Now that's a classic line! I love it! Move over Einstein, make room for me.



boomers_dawn said:


> Last week he said he likes dogs that make mistakes b/c that's how they learn.
> I must be turning into a genius.
> 
> !


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

You are genius  And without making mistakes !




boomers_dawn said:


> The learning curve continues.
> We had class tonight, we did decheating drills.
> Gladys is so quick, I try to blow the whistle before she's past trouble.
> So tonight I read her as going the wrong way and stopped her, but he said twice I stopped her when she was going the right way, so I confused her.
> ...


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

EvanG said:


> Very cool! That's a good line.
> 
> EvanG


Yes, I am seeing a lot of very nice Red kids these days. Rory had another placing in an Open a couple of weeks ago. Need to get that win! Dan deVos is training and running him. He and his dam are both qualified for our National Open later this month.


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