# Dreamkeeper Goldens- LOOK ELSEWHERE!



## normansmom (Nov 27, 2010)

My present Golden came from Dreamkeeper, and I have no regrets. I have had two previous Goldens. My first came from one of the breeders on your list. He had severe hip dysplasia. I didn't know enough then to realize that his father, at 16 months was too young to have clearances despite his breeder's assertion that all her breeding stock had hip clearances. 

My second Golden, also from an established breeder, had his first seizure at 13 months of age. His epilepsy remained very poorly controlled despite the vast amounts of medications he was on - he had clusters of seizures every 3 weeks. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

I was very careful looking for my third Golden. Christina is the most cautious breeder I could find. She has eliminated dogs from her breeding program that i suspect most breeders would have kept, because her primary concern is that her dogs live out a long and happy life with their families. And while I realize that there are no guarantees in life, I think my lovely Sophie will live that long and healthy life.

I recognize that her dogs are more expensive than most, and perhaps not everyone can afford to buy a dog from her. But I do not understand why she should have to subsidize the cost of the puppies she produces - it seems to me that that is when shortcuts happen. 

When we decide to get Sophie a brother or sister, we won't hesitate to go to Christina again.


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## glden85 (Nov 27, 2010)

*wow*

Its funny how this is your ONLY post on this website? Is this by any chance Christine herself? 

I disagree with you! those breeders are amazing...considering most of my family have bought dogs from them... they are perfectly sound and healthy animals. 

Do not degrade them...they are honest people who price their dogs appropriately.

wow..


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## keriharlow (Mar 17, 2011)

glden85 said:


> Do not degrade them....


Perhaps you should take your own advice. Don't degrade Christina and the amazing job she does raising extraordinary puppies. If people choose to pay her prices, and they obviously do if she's constantly got a waiting list (to which I can personally attest) then just live and let live. Don't come on the boards to bash a breeder doing what she loves. If you have a problem with her prices, look the other way. No one is forcing you to pay her price or have anything to do with her or her site. 
Everyone has their own opinion on breeders, prices, and pedigree..to each his own. It's not fair to disparage someone you disagree with. People will pay or not pay, but it doesn't make Christina a bad person, or her business suspect. I own one of her puppies, and have never had such an outstanding golden. When we lost our last one, we searched very carefully for the most ethical, caring, thorough breeder we could find, in hopes that we wouldn't lose another dog to preventable golden tendencies. Christina's breeding philosophy meshed perfectly with ours. Our vet has said he's never seen such a healthy, perfect specimen. And was so impressed he asked the breeder's name as he is a golden owner as well. That meant a lot to me in terms of confirmation we did the best thing for us. We couldn`t recommend Christina more. 
We researched some of the other breeders you mentioned, who charge much less in some cases, but felt like Christina was the best fit, and therefore decided the extra money was worth it. And believe me, it`s been worth it. Many golden owners know that you can`t really put a price on a family member. Once they`re a part of you, you`d do almost anything for them. The same goes for adopting them into your family. If you want what you want, you`ll pay for it. I paid in hopes that I would have a dog who wouldn`t spend the last five years of her life with increasing pain due to hip displasia, who was young at heart and brain, but old in body. I have no guarantees I`ve succeeded, but I feel I`ve 
made the best bet I could.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Reputable breeders do not impose the cost of a dog on puppy buyers. If that were the case, no one could afford _any _truly well bred puppy out of Champion (AKC/CKC) parents. Why should I expect a puppy buyer to pay for what I have put into a dog by my choice? Purchase cost, feeding, vet care, clearances, cost to finish the dam and/or sire... ridiculous to expect that someone else should pay that.
As for importing a dog from Hungary, Spain, Ukraine, Poland, Russia, etc, (OR, even ENGLAND if it were REALLY an "English" Golden) expecting puppy buyers to pay those expenses is just as ridiculous. 

Most of us purchase/breed dogs for ourselves, to have something to compete with and to improve our breeding programs. Not simply to mass produce puppies to sell at inflated prices.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

I'm not getting into the cost debate, but I do find it odd the opposing posters to this thread are first time posters in this thread....


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

GoldenLover84 said:


> I'm not getting into the cost debate, but I do find it odd the opposing posters to this thread are first time posters in this thread....


I had the same thought.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Reputable breeders do not impose the cost of a dog on puppy buyers. If that were the case, no one could afford _any _truly well bred puppy out of Champion (AKC/CKC) parents. Why should I expect a puppy buyer to pay for what I have put into a dog by my choice? Purchase cost, feeding, vet care, clearances, cost to finish the dam and/or sire... ridiculous to expect that someone else should pay that.
> As for importing a dog from Hungary, Spain, Ukraine, Poland, Russia, etc, (OR, even ENGLAND if it were REALLY an "English" Golden) expecting puppy buyers to pay those expenses is just as ridiculous.
> 
> Most of us purchase/breed dogs for ourselves, to have something to compete with and to improve our breeding programs. Not simply to mass produce puppies to sell at inflated prices.


Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Perfect! That is the definition of the reputable breeder!


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## 58loosy (Apr 18, 2010)

Doesn't it sometimes come down to what you want to spend your money on? I spent $2,ooo, but in so. cal to get all the screenings and get a breeder that is involved in the golden retriever club and stay's with a good lineage was important to me. She is my 3rd golden, I didn't pay that much and did have healthy goldens but as the yrs. go by the screenings are even more important. I'm not a new poster I just haven't put anything up in awhile. Maybe somebody will remember me and Lucy. She is 18 mos. now. I love reading and learning from everybodies posts.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

58loosy said:


> Doesn't it sometimes come down to what you want to spend your money on? I spent $2,ooo, but in so. cal to get all the screenings and get a breeder that is involved in the golden retriever club and stay's with a good lineage was important to me. She is my 3rd golden, I didn't pay that much and did have healthy goldens but as the yrs. go by the screenings are even more important. I'm not a new poster I just haven't put anything up in awhile. Maybe somebody will remember me and Lucy. She is 18 mos. now. I love reading and learning from everybodies posts.


Should I build the cost of my showing dogs (entries, gas, hotels, restaurants), clearances, feed, vet bills, purchase price (if I did not breed the dog), maybe my kennel facility - heck, how about my mortgage since we bought this place specifically to have property and a place to build my facility), into the price of the puppies that I sell? If I market it just right, maybe I can find people who will defend my doing so (yeah, I have a waiting list, too...) and chastise anyone who degrades me because my amazing dogs are worth it... I mean, there has to be someone who wants to spend their money on what I CHOOSE TO DO and subsidize it for me, right? :doh:

(I am NOT bashing 58loosy, just trying to clarify that I can't buy many of the justifications for inflating the prices of puppies by so many.)


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## Almanac (Jan 26, 2011)

Supply and Demand in a free market. If you don't like the price go somewhere else?


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## 58loosy (Apr 18, 2010)

I understand what you are saying, my breeder only breeds once a yr. she makes sure dad is from and still in the championship ring. Dad had ofa excellent. I am very happy with Lucy she very sweet and calm. The pups were very socialized and held by the breeder from day l, very friendly and not fearful of anything. Do you show your golden? The male was from shadalane kennels and the breeder's name is Alan, I heard he is well known from being a handler and having great pup's.


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## ggdenny (Nov 2, 2008)

I just take exception to the OP's phrase "own one of these." I would never refer to a dog or a person that way.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Almanac said:


> Supply and Demand in a free market. If you don't like the price go somewhere else?


You do that. 
Me, I'll do my best to educate unsuspecting buyers so that they actually have a chance of getting what they pay for.And knowing what to look for. And frankly, unless a dog craps gold nuggets and his dander is gold dust, there is no real reason for the ridiculously inflated prices that are being charged for mediocre quality dogs by so many "breeders" advertising on the internet.


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## Almanac (Jan 26, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> You do that.
> Me, I'll do my best to educate unsuspecting buyers so that they actually have a chance of getting what they pay for.And knowing what to look for. And frankly, unless a dog craps gold nuggets and his dander is gold dust, there is no real reason for the ridiculously inflated prices that are being charged for mediocre quality dogs by so many "breeders" advertising on the internet.


Attacking the quality for the price is one thing, but I was only seeing complaints about the price. If the dogs are not quality then I can understand.


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## keriharlow (Mar 17, 2011)

GoldenLover84 said:


> I'm not getting into the cost debate, but I do find it odd the opposing posters to this thread are first time posters in this thread....


It certainly couldn't be because I googled my breeder's name and found this link...I MUST be a troll, or better yet, Christine herself! Please. I'm not arguing the cost, just saying that people will pay what they want to pay, and aren't "unsuspecting" if they've done their homework and still picked Dreamkeeper Goldens...it's THEIR choice, and the buyers and/or breeder shouldn't be bashed or badmouthed for making their choices, just as others shouldn't be either. Good for everyone else who made their own 'better for them' choices. Just because I defend my choice, I must be an idiot for spending the money, or a troll promoting a breeder. 
If you want to buy a Lexus, you will if you have the means. It doesn't make it better than a Ford necessarily, but it's what you prefer, and are willing to pay for. I paid based on the research I did on Christina's business, and what I was looking for in a longtime family member, as did everyone else on this board. Much more important than something like a car. You can bash my choice all you want, but it's not fair to bash Christina. If it were you breeding, I'm sure you would hope to make some profit on the time and effort or to offset some of the costs involved....breeders aren't philanthropists throwing their millions into a business to not do better than break even. And it IS a business no matter who the breeder is.
Christina answers every phone call, every email, and offers her best suggestions and answers to any and all questions. She asks about the dog each and every time, and always wants pictures to see her pups. No matter what she charges, she's in it for the right and best reasons. 
Oh, and just because I just came across this link today, doesn't mean I'm posting for the wrong reasons or have a hidden agenda...just as I'm sure those who have thousands upon thousands of posts here aren't acting like bullies staking out their territory, trying to make a newbie feel unwelcome for their opinion.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

Well, I just googled "Dreamkeeper Goldens" and this website didn't even show up on the first page ....


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

GoldenLover84 said:


> Well, I just googled "Dreamkeeper Goldens" and this website didn't even show up on the first page ....


In their defense, when I googled it this thread was the 5th clickable link on google.

And that's all I'm saying on this topic!


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## keriharlow (Mar 17, 2011)

Yep, I'm a liar...making it ALL up. Sorry people, I BINGed Dreamkeeper Goldens, and the link came up fifth from the top. I'm absolutely a troll, no doubt. Disregard all the valid points I made...I'm new, so you can't trust a word I say. How disappointing that people can't have and share their own opinions, different than others', on a public board.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Almanac said:


> Attacking the quality for the price is one thing, but I was only seeing complaints about the price. If the dogs are not quality then I can understand.


 
I am not "attacking" anyone or anything. Haven't named anyone, simply stated my opinion.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

keriharlow said:


> Yep, I'm a liar...making it ALL up. Sorry people, I BINGed Dreamkeeper Goldens, and the link came up fifth from the top. I'm absolutely a troll, no doubt. Disregard all the valid points I made...I'm new, so you can't trust a word I say. How disappointing that people can't have and share their own opinions, different than others', on a public board.


Good grief.


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## keriharlow (Mar 17, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> Good grief.


 Exactly. Why should it be pointed out that I had only one post, or that what I said I googled wasn't what someone else googled unless I was being made out to be a troublemaker? Not a very welcoming start in defending a breeder I have found to be worth every penny. That's ALL I wanted to contribute, but then my motives got called into play. I find it pretty disappointing, since I've owned three Goldens myself, and have a family full of them, and was tickled to find this site. The breeder is worth the money, imo, that's all. My contribution, in a discussion of price. That's all. I hope my future posts won't be treated with such suspicion. Have a good night everyone.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Whew......


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

keriharlow said:


> If you want to buy a Lexus, you will if you have the means. It doesn't make it better than a Ford necessarily, but it's what you prefer, and are willing to pay for. I paid based on the research I did on Christina's business, and what I was looking for in a longtime family member, as did everyone else on this board. Much more important than something like a car. You can bash my choice all you want, but it's not fair to bash Christina. If it were you breeding, I'm sure you would hope to make some profit on the time and effort or to offset some of the costs involved....breeders aren't philanthropists throwing their millions into a business to not do better than break even. And it IS a business no matter who the breeder is.


But it isn't a question of a Lexus or a Ford. Its a question of how much you want to pay for a Lexus or since we are talking about a dog from Great Britain, a Austin Martin. Assuming they sell the same quality car, with the same quality service, do you buy the one that costs $60,000 or the one that costs $120,000. Is the car better just because you can tell everyone you paid $120,000?

Point Gold will get a chuckle out of this (or maybe not because she knows who the breeder is). Years ago I met an acquaintance (who had a Golden) at a store and she was telling me all about the Golden puppy she was getting. One of the first things she told me was that she was paying $1600 for the pup. At that point I was waiting for my Selli to be born and I knew I would be paying $900 for her. I asked the acquaintance about the kennel and about what types of competition they were in assuming any pup worth $1600 must have an amazing pedigree with National Specialty winning parents. Nope, this kennel specialized in breeding "pet" Goldens. I did some research on the kennel and gave my acquaintance the information that I found showing that the dogs, even in a market in which there is little standardization of prices, were not worth that much money. She wound up getting the puppy, never getting the papers, and having a dog with health issues. Oh, and she also drove a Jag as her "dog" car.

I am not saying that anything like this would happen with Dreamkeepers, but just because someone says their dogs are worth more than most reputable breeders charge is not proof that they are.

My final point is that I believe, like Point Gold, that the best breeders are those whose activities with dogs are their hobby not a money making venture. They breed to have a dog to compete with not to have puppies to sell.....but Point Gold made that point better than I am.


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

Almanac said:


> Supply and Demand in a free market. If you don't like the price go somewhere else?


DING DING DING we have a winner! 

To the original poster - why do you feel the need to go around and tell people to stay away from this particular breeder? I could see if you bought a puppy from her and had health issues, or she lied to you, or something like that. But to tell people to stay away because she's "too expensive"??? :uhoh:

What may seem too expensive for you may not be the case for everyone else. Let them decide if they want to spend that kind of money or not....they don't need you to tell them it's too much money :no:


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> I am not "attacking" anyone or anything.


Sure you are.....you were attacking the quality for the price (as Almanac said).....see below....



Pointgold said:


> Me, I'll do my best to educate unsuspecting buyers so that they actually have a chance of getting what they pay for.And knowing what to look for. And frankly, unless a dog craps gold nuggets and his dander is gold dust, there is no real reason for the ridiculously inflated prices that are being charged for mediocre quality dogs by so many "breeders" advertising on the internet.


And let me say that I agree with you on that. We should attack (although I prefer the word "question") the quality of what you get for your money. It's like the breeders of "English Creame" goldens that charge a small fortune for a dog with a fancy name.....I've even seen one breeder that touted _"Our English Creame retrievers are healthier than Golden retrievers..."_. I'm sure there were more than a couple of people out there who took it hook, line, and sinker and dropped big bucks for a "special" dog.


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## Almanac (Jan 26, 2011)

Let me just clarify what I'm saying here. I find it a bit ridiculous that the OP came all this way to post his first post on a forum just to bash a breeder that he decided was too expensive. He never questioned that they were well bred or that they were responsible breeders. As well, several of you agreed.

It's one thing if you have been lied to, or the dogs were misrepresented in some way. But in the U.S. we value a free market. I know many of do not see dogs as being something sold as part of a business, but as a hobby instead. I think that this is what causes the biggest issues here.

That being said, I think the breeder has the right to ask for whatever they think is fair as long as they are not blatantly trying to ripoff a person interested in buying a pet. I would not consider $2,500 a complete ripoff for a well bred golden retriever. It could be a different story if health clearances weren't done while they purported that they were and generally misled the buyers.

I didn't mean to accuse anyone of "attacking" anything. If you re-read what I said, I was trying to state that everyone was objecting to the price and not to the quality. I am a lot more upset about the breeder who wanted $1200 for a dog and told me to my face in person that she does all 4 clearances only to find out that she did not.

There are something things that are blatant ripoffs... such as an HDMI cable sold for $1,500 because they claim it does something better than a $15 cable (which they do not and it can be proven). With animals and price differences of maybe $1,000, the value will be much more subjective to each individual's idea of what it is worth.


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

Almanac said:


> Let me just clarify what I'm saying here. I find it a bit ridiculous that the OP came all this way to post his first post on a forum just to bash a breeder that he decided was too expensive. He never questioned that they were well bred or that they were responsible breeders. As well, several of you agreed.
> 
> It's one thing if you have been lied to, or the dogs were misrepresented in some way. But in the U.S. we value a free market. I know many of do not see dogs as being something sold as part of a business, but as a hobby instead. I think that this is what causes the biggest issues here.
> 
> ...


Exactamundoooo :wavey:

The breeder, the supply, has the right to ask whatever price they want. And the buyer, the demand, has the right to NOT BUY whatever they want. It really is a beautiful thing, this free market system.

But to come on here and say "dont buy from this breeder they are charging too much"....????.....seems weird. Maybe the OP is a competitor of this particular breeder?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

ActionJackson said:


> Sure you are.....you were attacking the quality for the price (as Almanac said).....see below....
> 
> 
> 
> And let me say that I agree with you on that. We should attack (although I prefer the word "question") the quality of what you get for your money. It's like the breeders of "English Creame" goldens that charge a small fortune for a dog with a fancy name.....I've even seen one breeder that touted _"Our English Creame retrievers are healthier than Golden retrievers..."_. I'm sure there were more than a couple of people out there who took it hook, line, and sinker and dropped big bucks for a "special" dog.


 
No. I wasn't attacking anyone or anything. It is quite tiresome to be constantly accused of "attacking" someone just because I do not agree with them. The word "attack" is tossed around pretty cavalierly these days. In this case, if you read my posts to this thread, I haven't even mentioned the named breeder. I've simply voiced my opinion about particular practices relating to pricing. As is my right. I'm addressing the subject. Not any individual.


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> No. I wasn't attacking anyone or anything. It is quite tiresome to be constantly accused of "attacking" someone just because I do not agree with them. The word "attack" is tossed around pretty cavalierly these days. In this case, if you read my posts to this thread, I haven't even mentioned the named breeder. I've simply voiced my opinion about particular practices relating to pricing. As is my right. I'm addressing the subject. Not any individual.





Pointgold said:


> And frankly, unless a dog craps gold nuggets and his dander is gold dust, *there is no real reason for the ridiculously inflated prices that are being charged for mediocre quality dogs by so many "breeders" advertising on the internet*.


Let me preface this by saying that I agree with you. :wavey:

Next, lets get that ugly word "attacked" out of the picture 

Now, let me respond first by saying that I never accused you of "attacking" anyone

You were, however, _questioning _something....that something being the "ridiculously inflated prices" - no, you were not questioning any individual specifically - just ridiculously inflated prices in general. And on this subject, I agree with you :smooch: Ridiculouly inflated prices are something that should absolutely be questioned.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Yep. Anyone can charge whatever they want. But potential buyers need to know what they are getting. (And still, an awful lot of the general public do not know what, or how, to look for what makes a good breeder and a quality dog, and buy into the "imported is better", "higher price, must be better" marketing...)










So, if the above soup is $10.00 per can because it has been imported from Sweden and the below is $1.89 because it is from the US, which one is "better" and which will YOU buy?


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## kateann1201 (Jan 9, 2011)

The import duh! Look at the pretty writing on the label! lol Totally kidding


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> Yep. Anyone can charge whatever they want. But potential buyers need to know what they are getting. (And still, an awful lot of the general public do not know what, or how, to look for what makes a good breeder and a quality dog, and buy into the "imported is better", "higher price, must be better" marketing...)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well since I'm a big-shot rich guy, the $10 is no biggie to me. So i'll spring for that one. Others may think spending $10 is expensive for a can of soup, but it's all relative to what your definition of "expensive" is. And the beauty part is, as a consumer, I can even buy the $20 organic can of soup if I wish because it's "healthier" for me


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

_I'm gonna be a happy idiot,_
_And struggle for that legal tender,_
_Where the ads take aim,_
_And lay their claim,_
_To the heart and the soul of the spender,_
_And believe it whatever may lie,_
_In those things that money can buy....._

_- Jackson Browne_

:wavey:


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Price and quality are only loosely related in purebred dogs. The cheapest dogs are rarely the healthiest or the best examples of the breed (unless the breeder has reduced the fee because he or she wants the dog in your home). The most expensive are either expensive because they're highly sought after (I've heard of people paying VERY high prices for show dogs from great breeders) or because the local market values the breeder's advertising.

Frankly, I don't care what people pay for dogs. For the truly wealthy, there isn't a lot of difference between $1200 and $3000. More power to 'em. 

When a carelessly bred dog goes for $3000 because the breeder has used deceptive marketing, it's the deception that's the problem, not the price. If I paid $5000 for a foundation dog for a breeding program, and he came from glorious ancestors, champion parents, and the best pedigree of clearances in the world, I doubt anybody would be upset that I paid so much, even though a hobby breeder probably wouldn't charge that. 

People can charge what the market will bear. Free market capitalism at its best. It's when they breed unethically and lie to inflate the price that the dogs suffer, and that's where the forum can have a positive impact.


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## oakleysmommy (Feb 20, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Price and quality are only loosely related in purebred dogs. The cheapest dogs are rarely the healthiest or the best examples of the breed (unless the breeder has reduced the fee because he or she wants the dog in your home). The most expensive are either expensive because they're highly sought after (I've heard of people paying VERY high prices for show dogs from great breeders) or because the local market values the breeder's advertising.
> 
> Frankly, I don't care what people pay for dogs. For the truly wealthy, there isn't a lot of difference between $1200 and $3000. More power to 'em.
> 
> ...


 i agree.......


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

:hijacked:

This whole discussion got waaaay off track.....

The original poster was talking about:

- a breeder bringing champions from the around the world into her breeding stock

- and the breeder "passing along" the costs of breeding with high quality dogs

....so the original poster's concern was not in questioning the quality or integrity of the dogs, far from it. She was actually questioning the fact that the breeder was "passing along" the costs of breeding with high quality dogs to potential buyers.

And that's where I have my gripe - I could see if the complaint was 'hey beware - this woman is a backyard breeder and is passing her dogs off as high quality'. But in this case the complaint is in the "passing along" of the costs of breeding with champin dogs. Who are any of us to tell someone they are paying too much for a quality dog?  It doesn't matter if the dog's sire was Superman himself - some people can't afford a $2,500 item regardless of the quality. If you want to buy the offspring of a Triple Crown winning horse, you will pay more than if you bought the offspring from someone's backyard farm horse. It's just the way it works.

Trying to compare "passing along" breeding costs vs. shady breeders falsely advertising their dogs as higher quality than they really are is like comparing apples to grapefruits.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

ActionJackson said:


> Trying to compare "passing along" breeding costs vs. shady breeders falsely advertising their dogs as higher quality than they really are is like comparing apples to grapefruits.


Well, I think the reason that I don't regard it as hijacked as that "passing along" the breeding costs of importing stud dogs with misleading titles is both shady and expensive. So the two issues were linked early on in the discussion.

It's interesting to ponder the passing on of legitimate costs (the cost of clearances, the expense of showing a dog through a Ch, etc.), which I would regard as totally fair if the buyer will pay. And then there's the passing on of import costs and the costs of getting a "championship" that can't be verified because of where it was obtained, or isn't competitive because it was done in a country with little or no competition, which is where we get into shadier business.

But both are at play here, so it seems fair to discuss both.


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

I disagree. I don't get the impression that's what the original poster was talking about at all. Nowhere did she question the _integrity_ of the championships. You can read into it whatever you want but taken at face value she was questioning the passing along of the breeder's cost of doing business, which is an entirely different discussion than talking shady breeders.

Dog owners charge breeders $ to breed out their prized stud, as I'm sure you know. Some may charge more based on the dog's accomplishments. That's where we see the variance in the cost of buying a puppy. From 500 to 5,000 and up.

I don't believe the integrity of the championships was in her mind at all, it was simply the fact that we, the potential buyers, would pay more for a dog that was bred with a certain quality stud.

If she is questioning the integrity of the championships themselves, well, thats an entirely different discussion and not one that I would participate in

Maybe the OP can chime in and clear up the confusion?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kateann1201 said:


> The import duh! Look at the pretty writing on the label! lol Totally kidding


Yeah, I guess. And most of those cans from Sweden are, after all, "cream" soups.


If someone wants to be a bigshot and pay far more for something priced reasonably/fairly, that is exactly the same, and often even better just for the status/because he can/it makes him feel important or superior, go for. I'll chalk him up as a fool. I'm not impressed by that.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

So, Laura, you wouldn't pony up the $1.5 million that the coal baron Chinese guy just paid for a Tibetan Mastiff?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

ActionJackson said:


> I disagree. I don't get the impression that's what the original poster was talking about at all. Nowhere did she question the _integrity_ of the championships. You can read into it whatever you want but taken at face value she was questioning the passing along of the breeder's cost of doing business, which is an entirely different discussion than talking shady breeders.
> 
> Dog owners charge breeders $ to breed out their prized stud, as I'm sure you know. Some may charge more based on the dog's accomplishments. That's where we see the variance in the cost of buying a puppy. From 500 to 5,000 and up.
> 
> ...


The OP may not have questioned the value of the championships, but they were certainly questioned in the thread.


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## dmv22 (Mar 24, 2011)

If your paying $2500+++ on a golden you are just being TAKEN! Importing goldens from various countries in many numbers is a recipe for disaster. Basically you have the UN in your pedigree. Many dogs of such unknown pergigrees with some known pedigrees and breeding them together is disastrous as you have no idea what is behind the dogs! I have 2 imported dogs and certainly do not charge those prices as I breed for myself first! I keep a pup from the litters I breed and if I don't than I don't breed. Those 2 imports cost 2000.00 each + costs of travelling to England and back and yes also getting titles in show and fir=eld, clearances, etc etc etc. I don't pass on those costs to people! REDICULOUS! Because you pay more for a dog you are not getting something better! $1000-$1500. is at best you should pay for an english golden. The costs of breeding are NOT all the same. We are importing frozen semen from UK and to introduce new lines which have strong background for eyes. This breeding alone will cost $4000.00and we are keeping 2 puppies and rest will be sold at $1500.00 So that being said, I'm sorry but paying 2500 for a puppy is BS and a rip off! You can also get a dysplstic pup even if both parents are clear! It is POLYGENIC which means multi genes affecting. Impossible to exclude until we have a DNA test. And ONLY then will be possible to irradicate the problem. Epilepsy is in many scandinavian lines and some dogs are known for it. That's why you have to research pedigrees. I would be heartbroken knowing a client had an epileptic dog because I was careless. Some just don't care. So, advise is ask around, go to dog shows and do your homework. Buyer beware.


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> The OP may not have questioned the value of the championships, but they were certainly questioned in the thread.


Sure they were.

But I find it rather rude to take over someone else's thread with questions and comments that don't pertain to the subject the OP was bringing up. I always thought that's why we had that "post new thread" button


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## Almanac (Jan 26, 2011)

dmv22 said:


> If your paying $2500+++ on a golden you are just being TAKEN! Importing goldens from various countries in many numbers is a recipe for disaster. Basically you have the UN in your pedigree. Many dogs of such unknown pergigrees with some known pedigrees and breeding them together is disastrous as you have no idea what is behind the dogs! I have 2 imported dogs and certainly do not charge those prices as I breed for myself first! I keep a pup from the litters I breed and if I don't than I don't breed. Those 2 imports cost 2000.00 each + costs of travelling to England and back and yes also getting titles in show and fir=eld, clearances, etc etc etc. I don't pass on those costs to people! REDICULOUS! Because you pay more for a dog you are not getting something better! $1000-$1500. is at best you should pay for an english golden. The costs of breeding are NOT all the same. We are importing frozen semen from UK and to introduce new lines which have strong background for eyes. This breeding alone will cost $4000.00and we are keeping 2 puppies and rest will be sold at $1500.00 So that being said, I'm sorry but paying 2500 for a puppy is BS and a rip off! You can also get a dysplstic pup even if both parents are clear! It is POLYGENIC which means multi genes affecting. Impossible to exclude until we have a DNA test. And ONLY then will be possible to irradicate the problem. Epilepsy is in many scandinavian lines and some dogs are known for it. That's why you have to research pedigrees. I would be heartbroken knowing a client had an epileptic dog because I was careless. Some just don't care. So, advise is ask around, go to dog shows and do your homework. Buyer beware.


No offense, but I'm not even reading your whole post. If you allow yourself to get used by someone who shows up on these forums just to bash someone (you only have 1 - 3 posts) then you are letting yourself get used. The original poster, and this poster, along with the other post about this same breeder are not coincidence. Who knows their true motives, but I am not a fool.


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> Yeah, I guess. And most of those cans from Sweden are, after all, "cream" soups.
> 
> 
> If someone wants to be a bigshot and pay far more for something priced reasonably/fairly, that is exactly the same, and often even better just for the status/because he can/it makes him feel important or superior, go for. I'll chalk him up as a fool. I'm not impressed by that.


Good thing they aren't trying to impress ya then, eh? 

Go ahead and chalk them up as a "fool" in your book, that's your prerogative. Just as it's their prerogative to play the rich dude and buy whatever they'd like with the money they earned....whether it be to feel important, superior, or otherwise. Doesn't matter the reason....who the heck are we to pass judgement on anyone?  Jeeeeeezzzzzzeeeee

If someone wants to spend their money, it's up to them how to spend it. People say buyer beware for a reason, ya know.


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## dmv22 (Mar 24, 2011)

Good luck to you and maybe you lucked out! But how old is your dog???? I'm sorry but there is a problem with her breeding program amongst many more. For one she is breeding a bitch who has a PenHipp hip clearance of 50%!!! That's not good and unacceptable as the minimun cut off for breeding is 60%. Which then I would even be very careful to the boy she is bred to as he would have to have a very strong hip backgroud. Anyone who imports pups left right and center in such a short time is a PUPPY MILL! The pedigrees are all over the place and FYI: A breeder who imports only a few with sound lines to SLOWLY build up their kennel and breeding program is the way one starts. NOT importing Tom, Dick, and Harry from all over the world. And be advised that a Champion title isn some countries are a joke. The dog beats 2 dogs at a show and he's a champion. Don't let some titles fool you. Many of the lines she has I wouldn't touch with a 10 ft pole or all the money in the world. They are very susceptible and some plagued with problems. This will all come back to bite her when she gets calls from owners saying their dog is blind, crippled or dead at young age. So, there is a sucker born every minute...


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## dmv22 (Mar 24, 2011)

almanac said:


> no offense, but i'm not even reading your whole post. If you allow yourself to get used by someone who shows up on these forums just to bash someone (you only have 1 - 3 posts) then you are letting yourself get used. The original poster, and this poster, along with the other post about this same breeder are not coincidence. Who knows their true motives, but i am not a fool.


 none taken. Lol


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

ActionJackson said:


> Good thing they aren't trying to impress ya then, eh?
> 
> Go ahead and chalk them up as a "fool" in your book, that's your prerogative. Just as it's their prerogative to play the rich dude and buy whatever they'd like with the money they earned....whether it be to feel important, superior, or otherwise. Doesn't matter the reason....who the heck are we to pass judgement on anyone?  Jeeeeeezzzzzzeeeee
> 
> If someone wants to spend their money, it's up to them how to spend it. People say buyer beware for a reason, ya know.


 
It's not about whether they are trying to impress me or not. While I agree one hundred percent that what one does with their money is their business, it's exactly that - their business. Frankly, I'm old enough to subscribe to the school of thought that it is impolite/uncouth to talk about how rich you are/how much money you paid for something, etc. 
And I do think it is foolish to pay more for exactly the same thing (or even a lesser quality) simply "because you can" and then say you have "because you can".
Old school. Oh well.


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## dmv22 (Mar 24, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> You do that.
> Me, I'll do my best to educate unsuspecting buyers so that they actually have a chance of getting what they pay for.And knowing what to look for. And frankly, unless a dog craps gold nuggets and his dander is gold dust, there is no real reason for the ridiculously inflated prices that are being charged for mediocre quality dogs by so many "breeders" advertising on the internet.


ABSOLUTELY!! Well said.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

ActionJackson said:


> Sure they were.
> 
> But I find it rather rude to take over someone else's thread with questions and comments that don't pertain to the subject the OP was bringing up. I always thought that's why we had that "post new thread" button


Isn't your post committing the exact offense it accuses me of? 

Seriously, though, on GRF, we're pretty lax about sticking to only the subjects brought up in the first post. Especially when the OP joins the forum for two posts and hasn't been involved in the thread in over three months.


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

dmv22 said:


> This will all come back to bite her when she gets calls from owners saying their dog is blind, crippled or dead at young age. So, there is a sucker born every minute...


 
Well I know this thread started out debating prices - which is one matter - but when people start to attack the quality of my goldens then I feel I must respond. I find it especially offensive that the poster of this comment is also a breeder that came to me asking information about a particular health issue in a line - which I gladly offered !!

My goldens are not Tom, Dick and Harry from all over the world. They may come from different countries but the majority of them have three very specific bloodlines behind them. I have done a great deal of research in the lines and spent years developing relationships with some of the best breeders in Europe whose opinion and insight into these lines is invaluable.

And as to your suggestion that we may be a Puppy Mill -- Wow ! Thank you for the defamation of character. I invite you to come and visit us in person. I will lay all my pedigrees and health clearances out on the kitchen table and you can visit with our golden family. You can see where my goldens play and where they sleep and where our puppies are born -- and then perhaps you will be in a better position to comment on who and what we are. Or ask anyone that has come to visit us before you start making such blind and careless accusations.

As for breeding a bitch with 50 % Pennhip -- as you said so yourself in an earlier post -- hip dysplasia is polygenic. There is no simple equation that will give good hips in a breeding. The hips of this particular girl have no signs of DJD, no cavitation, no other notable findings -- and she is still in the top half of goldens that have been screened for DI. I discussed this breeding with at least 3 different vets and a couple of other breeders who have mentored me along the way and they all agree it is a sound breeding as the stud's lines are known hip improvers and the bitch comes from lines that have typically good hips (which you should know as her father is the brother to the stud dog that you own). I will refrain from getting into the whole Pennhip vs OFA or OVC debate....

I take what we do very seriously -- not only for the breed and its future health - but for the families that make one of our puppies a part of their family. The fact that you have implied that our dogs will grow to be crippled and blind is an attack that I take personally. 

If anyone else has any questions about the integrity of our goldens or our breeding program I invite you to call me so we can discuss matters first hand. Hiding behind the mask of posts and emails is often not very productive in my humble opinion.


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## Almanac (Jan 26, 2011)

dmv22 is treading on dangerous water... 

Defamation is not something taken lightly in the courts. It is quite clear you have bias considering you are also a breeder, and your motives for posting on this site are extremely questionable. Just a warning to you, you're setting yourself up to get sued big time... and honestly if you aren't, then it is just because of DreemKeeper's goodwill which you should be thankful for.

Personally I'd kinda like to know who this breeder is.... I know I would not want to buy a puppy from someone who felt they needed to rip another breeder on forums online for whatever reason.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Almanac said:


> dmv22 is treading on dangerous water...
> 
> Defamation is not something taken lightly in the courts. It is quite clear you have bias considering you are also a breeder, and your motives for posting on this site are extremely questionable. Just a warning to you, you're setting yourself up to get sued big time... and honestly if you aren't, then it is just because of DreemKeeper's goodwill which you should be thankful for.
> 
> Personally I'd kinda like to know who this breeder is.... I know I would not want to buy a puppy from someone who felt they needed to rip another breeder on forums online for whatever reason.


 Seeing as how you aren't planning to purchase a dog from either of them, it shouldn't matter. Both are registered with the CKC. One has been actively breeding/showing successfully with very well established Canadian and English lines for a long time, with all health clearances done. I tend to believe that any "motive" for posting here is hardly nefarious, but rather born of frustration.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

I usually stay mum on subjects like this because I always find that there are unnegotiable fissures between people on both sides of the topic. I find that people are very passionate about dog cost and some people truly take pride in paying more for their animal. But, as I've always maintained with most things I like to go into subjects with both eyes open.

First off 2000-2500 would be the cost of both of my dogs put together. The parents both had full sets of clearances and both of their breeders have shown their dogs to great success in the show rings. They are, in my very biased opinion, the nicest looking dogs in my area and are an advertisement for both breeders. "Where do you get such pretty dogs" is a question I answer fairly frequently. In short, as an owner who is looking for pet quality Golden Retrievers and dabbles in various "dog things" I have always enjoyed the attention my dogs get. They are simply put, well bred Goldens and are considerably better than what my wildest dreams could have imagined.

Every breeder has a "foundation" some like yourself import dogs because that is the type of dog they want to show or find more appealing. Granted, it is likely far more expensive and tedious to get a dog from the UK and I can definitely understand the hassles being someone who is rather experienced in importing / exporting. However, when I see a dog that is two thousand dollars, and I have seen a few, invariably they are from a kennel breeding "English Cream". They lack structure, clearances and to be honest don't fit my definition of being wellbred. Yet, their price would make people think otherwise. I doubt from what you've posted that you fit that mold but invariably you are tied to it because of the high price tag placed on your animals, as well as the type of golden you breed, which is sad because from what I've seen thus far from your postings you are NOT a Back Yard Breeder nor a "Puppy Mill".

Is being reputable selling dogs at a loss? I don't truly know that answer, but I do know that if you factor in the vetinary costs, showing costs, puppy costs and clearances my two would have been substantially more money. Miri especially since her dad got an abcess in his throat (possibly from rawhide) and cost north of 10 grand in vet bills just after she was born. Her litter was a litter of 6, just to pay for his vet bills the dogs would had to have been 2 grand each. If you factor in the costs associated to her breeding, I would likely have been looking at a 3000-3500 dollar dog...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Nothing like a can of worms... as far as PennHip, they keep the statistics a secret. The local "orthopedic specialist" who does PennHip, says that he is not allowed to pass on the paper work that tells you where all the various breeds fit in. That's one of the issues I have with PennHip. However, I asked him where the cut off to breed a golden was, and he said 50%. You all may not agree, but this veterinary specialist is telling his clients that.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Nothing like a can of worms... as far as PennHip, they keep the statistics a secret. The local "orthopedic specialist" who does PennHip, says that he is not allowed to pass on the paper work that tells you where all the various breeds fit in. That's one of the issues I have with PennHip. However, I asked him where the cut off to breed a golden was, and he said 50%. You all may not agree, but this veterinary specialist is telling his clients that.


I will not use PennHip for a variety of reasons, including the above.


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> Nothing like a can of worms... as far as PennHip, they keep the statistics a secret. The local "orthopedic specialist" who does PennHip, says that he is not allowed to pass on the paper work that tells you where all the various breeds fit in. That's one of the issues I have with PennHip. However, I asked him where the cut off to breed a golden was, and he said 50%. You all may not agree, but this veterinary specialist is telling his clients that.


Without starting a debate on Pennhip vs. OFA which is a whole other thread - apparently Pennhip has been trying to get an open database established for sometime however there have been delays due to legal/privacy issues.... not sure how OFA gets around this with their system but here is a link to more on this subject
PennHIP Home


I think as breeders we do our research and make choices based on what we learn and the advice of professionals that we respect in the field.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I'd have little respect for anyone advising a breeder to build the cost of importing their dogs, doing clearances, showing them, feeding and caring for them, etc etc into the cost of puppies sold. 
Nope. That is MY thing, not necessarily a puppy buyer's, and they should NEVER be used to subsidize my choices.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

As for pricing: I got my first golden "free" (from a client in 1990), she ultimately cost me $4000-$5000 in vet bills before she died at 12 1/2 years. Golden #2, I paid $650 and other than the cost of 2 ultrasounds and OFA's and other clearances, expenses for her were minimal when she died at almost 12 years. Golden #3 was $900 on a co-ownership in 2000. Then, after she had her first litter, I had to send the co-owner the price of one puppy(never mind, I sold her Ch sired pups for $850, but I had to send the co-owner $900!!!). Of the 7 currently at my house, golden #3 is 11 years and her big expenses so far are OFA clearances and other clearances. The remaining 6 are all homebreds..... I put titles on my dogs,all breeding(past/present) females I own have CHIC clearances, they are usually bred to dogs with at least a CH, but some sires also have working titles. And I still charge much less for puppies than most of the posters on this forum.


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> Isn't your post committing the exact offense it accuses me of?
> 
> Seriously, though, on GRF, we're pretty lax about sticking to only the subjects brought up in the first post. Especially when the OP joins the forum for two posts and hasn't been involved in the thread in over three months.


Not at all - I didnt take it off course, I responded to someone who did.

So we started this thread off with a statement about how a breeder is "passing along" their costs of breeding.....to now look what it's turned into


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

Having said that......

This is gettin' good :bowl:


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

ActionJackson said:


> Having said that......
> 
> This is gettin' good :bowl:


 
And your productive contribution?


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> And your productive contribution?


 
Heyyyy look who it is! Always a pleasure to see your condescending posts! :smooch: 

How's things up north of the border? Living frugally, I hope :crossfing :bowl:


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

And don't worry, I bought that popcorn on the cheap. I bought the cheap stuff "because I can" :


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

A simple waiver agreeing to the release of results is all that is required when the paperwork is submitted. The same is now true of OVC, as well as OFA's listing of other test results as well, so it should not be so complex in that regard. Setting up a database takes time and effort, but if PennHip wants to be taken seriously they will have to make this investment to share results so that people can independently confirm reports.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

I am kinda confused on Pennhip, OVC and OFA now. I thought the only acceptable ones were OVC and OFA, does GRCA recognize Pennhip?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

ActionJackson said:


> Heyyyy look who it is! Always a pleasure to see your condescending posts! :smooch:
> 
> How's things up north of the border? Living frugally, I hope :crossfing :bowl:


 
Please. Keep talking. I'm most interested. I guess that unless someone is complimenting you (or, your dog, as I did in a pm) they are condescending.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

GRCA COE accepts OFA, OVC, BVA, and Pennhip. However, the dogs in question must be older than 24 months(and you can do OVC at 18 months and PennHip whenever). And it makes no mention of percentile(as far as I can see) for PennHip.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Dreamkeeper, I'm interested in which titles your dogs currently hold and who you generally breed your girls to. Thanks!


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

jackie_hubert said:


> Dreamkeeper, I'm interested in which titles your dogs currently hold and who you generally breed your girls to. Thanks!


Of our current goldens Simson and Steele both hold Canadian Championships (conformation) and Simson also has a tracking title (from Sweden). From our girls Sophie, Daisy, Lilly and Star all hold a Canadian Championship title, Bella (who is co-owned) has obtained a IABCA championship and is working on finishing her Canadian, Abby has been lightly shown and has a few points - just waiting for her to mature to finish her. I have a few other younger goldens who I will probably show once they are older. We have not participated in a great deal of obedience work beyond basic obedience classes but this is an area that I would like to pursue once my children are a bit older and I have more time - as all of our goldens have great strengths in this area. A few of our dogs are also certified for therapy work - although of course this is not a title.

I have used a number of different studs for our girls - on a few occasions I have used our own - but also have been fortunate enough to have a couple of litters sired by other quality, champion males who I feel had the best attributes to compliment the girl I had in mind. We also had planned a litter for this past spring with frozen semen from a boy in Europe but we ran into a major glitch in customs and it is a long story - but those plans have been postponed now until fall or winter 2011. 

I dont just utilize whatever boys I have living with us for any potential breeding - I try to consider the strengths and weaknesses and move ahead with something that will produce health and quality.

I hope that answers your questions.

I just used call names for our goldens above re: titles - but if you would like I can re post with full registered names.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks for that!

I was actually more interested in non-conformation titles here in Canada and the US. 

Which studs have you used, if you don't mind telling us their registered names?


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

jackie_hubert said:


> Thanks for that!
> 
> I was actually more interested in non-conformation titles here in Canada and the US.
> 
> Which studs have you used, if you don't mind telling us their registered names?


The stud dogs that have sired one or more litters for us are:

Can CH Dream Max Jorgen Brink (SVCH)
Can CH Raynox Heart of Gold
Can CH Chrys-haefen Rigger Folkins
Can CH Giltedge Traveller, JH WC
SK CH Koriander v.d. Beerse Hoeve


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Dreamkeeper said:


> I have used a number of different studs for our girls - on a few occasions I have used our own - but also have been fortunate enough to have a couple of litters sired by other quality, champion males who I feel had the best attributes to compliment the girl I had in mind. *We also had planned a litter for this past spring with frozen semen from a boy in Europe but we ran into a major glitch in customs and it is a long story* - but those plans have been postponed now until fall or winter 2011.


If you need assistance in anything customs related PM me. I can get you all the answers you need as well as the legislation to support it.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

hmm...all the OFFA records are incomplete. I also remember quite an interesting few discussions one of those kennels from last year - do a quick search if you're interested.


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

jackie_hubert said:


> hmm...all the OFFA records are incomplete. I also remember quite an interesting few discussions one of those kennels from last year - do a quick search if you're interested.


 
Thank you. I tried sending you a PM but apparently I haven't made enough posts yet. As soon as I am permitted to send you a PM I will get back to you.


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

Braccarius said:


> If you need assistance in anything customs related PM me. I can get you all the answers you need as well as the legislation to support it.


Thank you Braccarius. I tried sending you a PM but since I am a new member to the forum I have not posted enough comments yet to be able to send a PM. I will be in touch as soon as I meet the requirement....
Thank you for your offer to help.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

How do the European clearances work? At what age do dogs get the final clearances? For example, Steele was born 7/08 and his clearances on k9data are from 9/09. Are those considered final clearances?

Dreamkeeper, not to be picky, but if the eye clearances are not CERF, then to accurately enter them on k9data, you should not use the CERF prefix. As an example, the eye clearances on your girl, Sophie.


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> How do the European clearances work? At what age do dogs get the final clearances? For example, Steele was born 7/08 and his clearances on k9data are from 9/09. Are those considered final clearances?
> 
> Dreamkeeper, not to be picky, but if the eye clearances are not CERF, then to accurately enter them on k9data, you should not use the CERF prefix. As an example, the eye clearances on your girl, Sophie.


 
Thanks Sally's mom -- I am in the process of updating all my K9 files as I only found out the other day that the documents I was given claiming to be "CERF equivalent" or not such - even though the doctor who issues them is a certified veterinary opthamologist. I have the first set of my goldens scheduled for the offical CERFs (and PRA testing) next Saturday so I was going to update everything with these results. Also - Steele was re-evaluated just recently with OFA for hips and elbows - his OFA rating is excellent and elbows normal - so again I just have not updated the K9 page - although I make copies of all actual clearances available to any of our puppy families.

I hope that helps to clarify things.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

For my own knowledge, how do the European (not BVA) clearances work?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

This is from a Leonberger breeder but sums things up pretty well.
LeoWorld: Breed Overview: Hip Dysplasia


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> For my own knowledge, how do the European (not BVA) clearances work?


In my opinion - the FCI European system is not as conclusive as some of the other methods out there but it really depends on which country the evaluation comes from. Some are more respected than others.

This is actually a Bearded Collie site - but it does the best job of explaining the FCI system without me muddling through an explanation.
The FCI details are found about 3/4 of the way down the page:
Hip Evaluation around the World (Canine) - Bearded Collie Club of America

Hip dysplasia continues to be a huge concern for many breeds - in a perfect world there would be one simple test that could accurately tell us whether a dog will pass it on to its offspring or not... For now there are many opinions regarding its heritability and more and more natural veterinarians are citing nutrition also as an integral factor.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Dreamkeeper said:


> In my opinion - the FCI European system is not as conclusive as some of the other methods out there but it really depends on which country the evaluation comes from. Some are more respected than others.
> 
> This is actually a Bearded Collie site - but it does the best job of explaining the FCI system without me muddling through an explanation.
> The FCI details are found about 3/4 of the way down the page:
> ...


 
Stating that nutrition being "cited as an integral factor" is out of context. Nutrition is considered a part of the equation regarding HD when considering the "environmental" component. Particularly with giant breeds that are over fed as puppies, and the subsequent weight bearing issue of joints that are most likely predisposed _genetically _to HD.


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> Stating that nutrition being "cited as an integral factor" is out of context. Nutrition is considered a part of the equation regarding HD when considering the "environmental" component. Particularly with giant breeds that are over fed as puppies, and the subsequent weight bearing issue of joints that are most likely predisposed _genetically _to HD.


Sorry - but I dont believe that saying nutrition is an integral factor is out of context. Also - I don't _*just*_ mean overfeeding - I mean actual quality of nutrients as in levels of calcium, protein, phosperous, Omegas - even Vitamin C which some dogs just process differently than others. I would tend to agree with the writer of the article below that states Hip Dysplasia is 100 % genetics and 100% environmental. For anyone interested there is a great deal of "food for thought" in this article by Mary Wakeman DVM.

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/hips.html


Abstracts are listed at the bottom of the article.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks for the info... I know what the ratings mean from country to country. My question is directed at what age constitutes final clearances in the various systems.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And actually, I have read that Mary Wakeman article before. I don't think anyone says that hip dysplasia is congenital. Congenital means the animal was born with it. More correctly, hip dysplasia falls under the hereditary category. As PG said, the dogs are genetically predisposed and then other things factor in. I had a unilaterally dysplastic dog that was OFA Fair at 2 years, then mildly unilaterally dysplastic at 44 months. She had a 1/2 brother that was moderately unilaterally dysplastic. Both dogs were affected in the right hip. So, different dads, same mom, same hip. There were other dysplastics in both litters, but I never got the details. The 2 dogs were raised in different homes with different people... I would argue that maybe there was an issue that was inherited on the right side.....


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Dreamkeeper said:


> Sorry - but I dont believe that saying nutrition is an integral factor is out of context. Also - I don't _*just*_ mean overfeeding - I mean actual quality of nutrients as in levels of calcium, protein, phosperous, Omegas - even Vitamin C which some dogs just process differently than others. I would tend to agree with the writer of the article below that states Hip Dysplasia is 100 % genetics and 100% environmental. For anyone interested there is a great deal of "food for thought" in this article by Mary Wakeman DVM.
> 
> http://www.showdogsupersite.com/hips.html
> 
> ...


I also am not just referring to over-fed puppies. However, as important as a blanced diet is, nutrition alone is not going to cause, or cure HD. It is part of the environmental factor as relates to HD and a dog's genetic predispostion to it. Of particular interest is uni-lateral HD.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

As far as nutrition goes, nobody's really been really able to pinpoint any causal factors in HD. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but it does mean that their effect is probably fairly subtle.

However, the predisposition is clearly heritable, as SM's anecdote demonstrates. That principle is also backed up in the actual research. The most compelling evidence to me is that done by researchers evaluating the OFA process; there are definitively lower rates of the problem in animals whose parents are cleared. Boom, done, case closed.

Factors from food and environment could probably push a borderline dog one way or the other, but heritability is clearly the big factor. Plus, it's the only factor a breeder can really control. You can push a client towards a food that you think is good, but you can't make 'em feed it. You can, however, choose only to breed dogs with complete multigenerational clearances and strong hip pedigrees.

Not that you don't—I haven't researched your dogs at all—, but I did want to chime in about the role of nutrition.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Dreamkeeper said:


> Sorry - but I dont believe that saying nutrition is an integral factor is out of context. Also - I don't _*just*_ mean overfeeding - I mean actual quality of nutrients as in levels of calcium, protein, phosperous, Omegas - even Vitamin C which some dogs just process differently than others. I would tend to agree with the writer of the article below that states Hip Dysplasia is 100 % genetics and 100% environmental. For anyone interested there is a great deal of "food for thought" in this article by Mary Wakeman DVM.
> http://www.showdogsupersite.com/hips.html
> Abstracts are listed at the bottom of the article.


A little off-topic but this is the same article that White Oak Golden Retrievers uses to justify breeding her unilaterally dysplastic dog, Sampson and the siblings to her unilaterally & bilaterally dysplastic bitches. 

I'm sure that is not what the author intended but it is being used by less than reputable breeders to legitimize breeding dysplastic dogs.


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

ragtym said:


> A little off-topic but this is the same article that White Oak Golden Retrievers uses to justify breeding her unilaterally dysplastic dog, Sampson and the siblings to her unilaterally & bilaterally dysplastic bitches.
> 
> I'm sure that is not what the author intended but it is being used by less than reputable breeders to legitimize breeding dysplastic dogs.


 
My apologies if I misled anyone into thinking that the environmental factor would give anyone permission for breeding a dysplastic dog !! I just think that hip dysplasia is a very complicated issue -- I have heard of completely clear parents producing dysplastic puppies and also (in Europe for example) two "C" parents producing "A" offspring (on more than one occasion). I think genetics is certainly the start - but of course HD is polygenic and then I think other things such as environment enter into the picture.

Its one of those things that we can't learn too much about.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Dreamkeeper said:


> My apologies if I misled anyone into thinking that the environmental factor would give anyone permission for breeding a dysplastic dog !! I just think that hip dysplasia is a very complicated issue -- I have heard of completely clear parents producing dysplastic puppies and also (in Europe for example) two "C" parents producing "A" offspring (on more than one occasion). I think genetics is certainly the start - but of course HD is polygenic and then I think other things such as environment enter into the picture.
> 
> Its one of those things that we can't learn too much about.


Sorry, I wasn't trying to infer that you were advocating breeding dysplastic dogs.  I just wanted to point out that there are breeders out there who doing exactly that and who are referencing this article as their justification.


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## amazed (Mar 31, 2011)

*If you have nothing nice to say then shut up!*


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## amazed (Mar 31, 2011)




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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

amazed said:


> I said I would NEVER post on this ridiculous site and now I have done it. When you attack my friends it just infuriates me.....You will never see me post on this horrible site again but I felt the need to defend my friend who I think is a wonderful person and breeder. Some of you only wish you had the quality that she has.


 
Um, okay...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

amazed said:


> Some of you need to remember what your parents taught you....If you have nothing nice to say then say nothing at all. I am so sick of the bashing that goes on in this forum. Shouldn't it be a place that others can find wonderful information about goldens?? Instead some just find it a place to degrade others. Personally it just makes me sick. I get so tired of it and I search my name and kennel everyday just waiting for something to show up about me. Nothing makes you guys happy....I imagine some of you with the worst sour puss face ever. Are you even happy people?? Is your life that miserable that you have to degrade others to make yourselves feel better. Stop the non-sense...


 
Since apparently the ONLY thing you have read on here is about your friend, you've certainly failed to see the _thousands _of postings with wonderful information, the caring and concern for members and their dogs and family members and friends, and the help provided to hundreds of people searching for puppies, answers to questions, or just here for camaraderie . 
Since it "makes you sick", I hope that for your well being you stay away.


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## NorsehaveGR (Apr 15, 2011)

CLEARING THE AIR! First of all I am sorry for these posts from DMV22 or whatever the name is. Apparently I have been informed last week while on vacation that they were from me! Thankafully I have a dear great friend who went to my house and found my computer to be hacked. I mean ravaged! This hacker went to town on my email addy book; credit cards fraud and attempted fraud; signing me up on 6 dog forums; online gamblind and the list goes on and on. I have emailed the administrators of this list to tell them I have never signed up let alone pay $50.00 to sign up on this forum and others! No reply yet;-((
As for Christina (Dremakeeper) I consider her and aquaintance/friend. Several months agon we have had very nice, polite emails when I emailed her about a dog who had a possible issue. Since I never believe gossip or 2nd hand news I decided to email her since she had owned him and I had seen him at our GR specilty as a junior puppy. He interested me as a possible future stud dog depending how he matured, health etc. Otherwise I would not have even emailed Christina if I didn't like the dog! I think Christina is a very nice, genuine person. I certainly would have no reason to speak ill of her on any forum or otherwise! As a rule in my life "if you have nothing good to say than don't say anything at all!" Therefore I hope this clears things up. I am very sorry for all this disturbance. I have not read all the posts (there are 10 pages) and I've finally gotten here after straightening the hack on my life in order to finally close this horrible chapter in my life! This hacker wrecked all my info in my computer including all the diaries I had on every litter, future breedings, health registries and sadly also 60 pages on the book I was writing. ALL GONE :-(((
A little peice of advice from my dear computer genius friend: Change your passwords on everything regularely. It happened to him as well 15 years ago. I hope this finds you all well. Sincerely Dominic Valois (Norsehaven Goldens)


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## Dreamkeeperclient (Sep 9, 2018)

K. You’re nuts! I have a dream keeper golden. Christina is the BEST! Have you ever visited her kennel? Have you ever experienced the process she takes her clients through? I can answer those questions with a “no” after reading your posts. The price difference is well worth the money. It’s very simple. You wanted one of her Goldens, but could not afford it. Get a life. Stop bashing people publicly. You’re acting like a very ignorant person. Anyone reading this post - don’t listen to this persons nonsense. Dream Keeper Goldens is the most professional kennel I have ever seen. Christina knows her breed. The dogs aren’t just a business for her. It’s her heart. You won’t be sorry.


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