# Anyone know about this breeder?



## sonusmomma (Sep 11, 2012)

I've been looking for a reputable breeder in WA, even going so far as ID and OR, and came upon Brown's Golden Delights, LLC. I've contacted the breeder, Alice Brown, and asked her all the questions that have been suggested on this forum and she was able to answer everything thoroughly. I've gone and looked at the pups and me and my partner put a hold deposit on "brown" from Sprinkles litter, but we still would like to just ask on here about everyone else's opinion. It would be greatly appreciated =] 

Heres the website to the breeder: HOME


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## Dakota's Pal (Sep 9, 2012)

I checked out the website, and they seem pretty good but what do I know never owned a dog  If it where me I would change your dogs food after a while because the first ingredient is chicken by-product meal in one of the puppy foods and thats not even real meat! But just what I would do


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Thet seem to be doing the clearances on their breeding stock. So that is very good. 
But what does concern me is they have had 12 litters over the last 3+ years 11 of them sired by their boy Heath. 
Also they also apear to be a member of the local Golden Club another plus . But they are not members of that club's breeder referral program. to me that is very odd, especially considering how many litters they seem to produce. I would ask them why they are not. If they state we do not need to to sell their pups understand that these lists are not intended as clearing houses foor member's pups but to educate the general public.
I see a couple of "show" pictures on their website but do not see any mention of their involvement in the breed other than breeding, but I may have missed it. 
All that said you could obviously much worse.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FYI-Chicken byproduct meal is real meat. It's muscle meat, organ meat, ground bone, and skin. It offers different nutrients than chicken meal, but it's not inferior or superior to it, just different.

I had a bit of trouble navigating the breeder's site, but I was able to check the sire of the current litter, (Heath), and the clearances were all in order, so that's a good sign. 

As far as the dam, E'Clair, the OFA website only has a CERF from 2010, but they've posted a scan of a CERF form on their site that appears to be from August of this year. They probably wanted to be clear that it was done because there can be a delay when the form is mailed in before it appears in the databases.

There are some breeder's options on the CERFs (i.e., irregularities that aren't indicative of a known genetic problem), so that might be worth talking about, just so you know if there are any issues.

I don't know anything about them from personal experience, but I check clearances as a first order of business, and those seem pretty much in order. It also looks like the dam is out of a Whiskey Creek dog, and they're members on the forum, so hopefully they'll see your post so they can offer more direct input.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm glad Hank found the number of litters. That's a bit of a concern for me, particularly since they're using the same sire over and over. That's a bit more characteristic of a high volume breeder trying to make money rather than trying to improve the breed. It's not a deal breaker, but it's a lot of litters.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

IMHO you could do worse. There are many thinks I like, such as the clearances. 
You could also do better. I don't like that this appears to be a business with not much thought going into pairings. The best dog for your girl is very rarely the one in your own yard. I also would like to see them more active with the dogs. What other than clearences makes them good representatives of the breed. I see UKC titles which is good and International titles which I do not place any weight on, but nothing from AKC. I would like to see something else, maybe a CGC? That being said, for me it would boil down to price. If they are in the 1200-2500 price range, I would pass. I could get something competition wise that is more proven for the same money. If they are less and I have visited with a good experience, then this would be a possibility. I hope this helps and good luck with your new pup


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

OLDERGOLDENS


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## sonusmomma (Sep 11, 2012)

Thank you everyone so much for your input and advice, I truly appreciate it. 
LJack I agree with you that it did boil down to the price and experience we had when we visited her home and the pups. The mom was an absolute love as well as some of the other dogs on site. The price was $850 with a $50 rebate after we get him neutered and get him through his first puppy class. We felt like it was a reasonable price for everything she was able to provide us with, in terms of health clearances and knowledge. I agree we could do better and a lot worse but we're hoping that we can just have a loving, healthy little boy from her. We actually found out about her through a neighbor who got a girl from her about a year ago and she's the typical happy, loving, hyper Golden puppy I know that doesn't necessarily prove anything but it's nice to know someone had a good experience with them.


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## sonusmomma (Sep 11, 2012)

> As far as the dam, E'Clair, the OFA website only has a CERF from 2010, but they've posted a scan of a CERF form on their site that appears to be from August of this year. They probably wanted to be clear that it was done because there can be a delay when the form is mailed in before it appears in the databases.


TippyKayak the dam of the litter we're looking at is actually Sprinkles but thank you for noticing that about E'Clair


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Sprinkles dad has no OFA elbow or heart clearances. Her full sister has an OFA elbow clearance, but no OFA hip clearance, but penn hip DI's. I would ask the breeder about these things....


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> Sprinkles dad has no OFA elbow or heart clearances. Her full sister has an OFA elbow clearance, but no OFA hip clearance, but penn hip DI's. I would ask the breeder about these things....


Good eye. This is the kind of thing that would make me pause. On one hand, the dogs are relatively inexpensive. On the other, you don't get as much health predictability with only the breeding dogs being cleared. Certainly, that's a wonderful step, but it's really important to be aware of how much power it gives you to have clearances reaching far back into the pedigree.

After all, with PU and many other diseases sometimes showing up so late in life and relatively sporadically, a larger group of dogs who've lived for longer is an invaluable resource for predicting health. As a vet/breeder, you obviously know that, but I thought it was worth saying.

Heath and Sprinkles have been matched up once a year for three years, so this would be the fourth year in a row that they've repeated this breeding (assuming there's a new breeding the OP is looking at rather than an older dog from the 2011 breeding). In addition to your questions, I'd also want to know what the purpose was of just repeating the same two dogs like that. It makes it look like they're just out to sell dogs rather than to produce great examples of the breed.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Sprinkles also had her first litter before her final OFA clearances. What was the rush?


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## sonusmomma (Sep 11, 2012)

Thank you so much everyone! I sent her an email asking about some of the things you all mentioned. And thank Sally's Mom for pointing out the lack of clearances on Sprinkle's dad, I'll definitely be finding out about that. I noticed on Sprinkles CERF (eyes) under breeder choice diagnosis Distichiasis was selected, is that something I should be concerned about?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

sonusmomma said:


> Thank you so much everyone! I sent her an email asking about some of the things you all mentioned. And thank Sally's Mom for pointing out the lack of clearances on Sprinkle's dad, I'll definitely be finding out about that. I noticed on Sprinkles CERF (eyes) under breeder choice diagnosis Distichiasis was selected, is that something I should be concerned about?


A distichia is an eyelash that's growing in the wrong place. It's fairly common in Goldens, and distichiasis usually manifests as fine, short eyelashes that grow on the inner rim of the eyelid and touch the cornea. However, it rarely causes problems, which is why it's considered a "breeder's option" on CERF (i.e., a breeder doesn't have to rule out the dog because of it). 

However, the chance for real problems depends on how severe the condition is. One misplaced eyelash is technically distichiaisis, but sometimes the dog has lots and lots that are growing in the wrong place, and if there are many or if they're coming in as thicker hair, they can cause weepy eyes or even ulcers. Our dog Jax has them, and his case is pretty light. However, he did develop a corneal ulcer about a year ago when one of the thicker ones broke halfway down and the sharp point of it dug into the cornea.

It was relatively simple to treat and cure, and we had him evaluated by an ophthalmologist afterwards. They can freeze the roots of the distichias, but she said she only does that in extreme cases, since 99% of the time they don't cause problems, and some of the roots will still produce hairs which, as they grow back can be shorter and therefore stiffer and more likely to cause problems.

So, like the other stuff, it's not a dealbreaker on its own, but it's something to discuss with the breeder. Jax's breeder pointed it out to us when we came to see the puppies, before I even noticed it, and she discussed typical treatment options for it and talked about what she had done when it had popped up in a couple of other dogs over the preceding decade.


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## sonusmomma (Sep 11, 2012)

So the breeder was able to tell me that the mom distichiasis is only 2-3 extra lashes and she hasn't seen it any of the pups. She did offer information of an reputable optometrist in the area that I could take the pup to if I wanted who could tell me for sure. She's only had 2 unrelated dogs ever have it. She was able to inform me on forms of treatments that can be used if the lashes do create an issue and what kind of issues can come from it. Basically all the same information that Tippykayak was able to give me. 

As for Sprinkle's dad (Mandy's Big Chace) information was a dog that belonged to her breeder friend and not her. He received a good on his hips, cardiac and then eyes passed as normal. She has copy's of the vet reports and said that some breeders will have all the reports completed but won't pay extra money to send them to a database place. She gave me information on some of Chace's other offsprings and the clearances that they've received. He passed away at age 14. Along with all this information she was able to give me more information about dogs further back in the lineage.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

sonusmomma said:


> So the breeder was able to tell me that the mom distichiasis is only 2-3 extra lashes and she hasn't seen it any of the pups. She did offer information of an reputable optometrist in the area that I could take the pup to if I wanted who could tell me for sure. She's only had 2 unrelated dogs ever have it. She was able to inform me on forms of treatments that can be used if the lashes do create an issue and what kind of issues can come from it. Basically all the same information that Tippykayak was able to give me.
> 
> As for Sprinkle's dad (Mandy's Big Chace) information was a dog that belonged to her breeder friend and not her. He received a good on his hips, cardiac and then eyes passed as normal. She has copy's of the vet reports and said that some breeders will have all the reports completed but won't pay extra money to send them to a database place. She gave me information on some of Chace's other offsprings and the clearances that they've received. He passed away at age 14. Along with all this information she was able to give me more information about dogs further back in the lineage.


Well, that's not 100% true. It used to be the case with CERF clearances (though the GRCA has recently changed the code of ethics to state that the forms should be sent in due to the recent problems with PU) and is still sometimes the case with cardiac clearances. However, it is never the case with hips or elbows. The only way to get a clearance is to have it sent in to OFA (or PennHip in the case of hips only) to be evaluated and graded by a team of specialists. Getting an x ray and having your general vet tell you it looks good doesn't count as a clearance... ever. Beyond that, I'm not willing to weigh in on the breeder because I don't have the time to do the research at this moment (though I would trust the info given by others in this thread, they know they're stuff!).... but I absolutely had to respond to that statement.

Julie, Jersey and Oz

EDIT: Oops, I just realized that the original poster that looked him up did not state that he was missing a hip clearance. But that does hold true for elbows, and from your response it doesn't look like she claimed the elbows were ever done. Why not?


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## sonusmomma (Sep 11, 2012)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Well, that's not 100% true. It used to be the case with CERF clearances (though the GRCA has recently changed the code of ethics to state that the forms should be sent in due to the recent problems with PU) and is still sometimes the case with cardiac clearances. However, it is never the case with hips or elbows. The only way to get a clearance is to have it sent in to OFA (or PennHip in the case of hips only) to be evaluated and graded by a team of specialists. Getting an x ray and having your general vet tell you it looks good doesn't count as a clearance... ever. Beyond that, I'm not willing to weigh in on the breeder because I don't have the time to do the research at this moment (though I would trust the info given by others in this thread, they know they're stuff!).... but I absolutely had to respond to that statement.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz
> 
> EDIT: Oops, I just realized that the original poster that looked him up did not state that he was missing a hip clearance. But that does hold true for elbows, and from your response it doesn't look like she claimed the elbows were ever done. Why not?


Thank you for the knowledge, I was just reiterating what the breeder had told me about the questions I had. But thank you for correcting it up =]


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The ophthalmogist I go to finds that as a rule, distichia in Goldens is not a big deal.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

Hi all....

I have been reading all you have had to say and I would like to clear up any misunderstanding in regards to Mandy's big chace (chace) Sprinkles sire. He was one of my first goldens not quite sure when we had his hips done but around 12-13 years ago. If I remember correctly GRCA did not have the recommendation to do elbow at that time. so we did not do them. I can say that he lived a very long and happy life. He never took any drugs for arthritis. He had his last eye exam just 6-8 months before he passed away which was clear. He did not pass away from cancer. In fact it was a sowing needle that took him from us just recently. He ate a sowing needle, we went in to get it and the surgery was to much for my old guy. We had to let him go the next day. Until that day he went to work every day with my husband. He still ran and plaid like a two year old at the age of 12.5 Boy to I miss him. 

With frozen seamen there are sure to be missing elbows in fact I just had a litter out of dog that has been gone for 15 years he did not have an elbow clearance either.

As for sprinkle's first litter has no one out there ever had an oops litter?? I know I have. Thank goodness I have only had one. 

There may be many reasons to Use the same stud dog and Heath was a very nice boy. I just had a litter out of him myself of which I kept a couple of puppies. 

Alice has her reasons for not being on the clubs breeder list. I for one respect those reasons and back her 100%.

Breeding the same dog to the same bitch several times. There are reasons for that as well. That paring is highly intelligent and make wonderful therapy, and service dogs. I know people have asked for that litter to be repeated for their talents. I have also bred one of my pairs about the same amount of times as those dogs have produced wonderful successful hunting dogs, seeing eye dogs, medic alert dogs, service dogs and show dogs. I have been asked to breed my pair over and over by different organization who we have been known to donate an entire litter to. Alice is not that much different in her breeding program.

Not participating in AKC events there is nothing wrong with not competing in AKC events. Some people hate the politics in it and choose to do different things with there dogs. It dose not mean that they are not active with them. I know that Alice is very active donating her time and her dogs to hospitalized children and adults. I will say that she has a new and upcoming boy of my breeding that she has sent out to a handler.

Anyway hope I was able to answer some of the questions.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

My newest concern is listing that both Shylo an Truffles are in heat now and being bread to Sonic. Sonic was born Nov 28 , 2010. He *does not and can not* have hip or elbow clearences. She is listing that he does. I take issue when folks are miss leading puppy buyers who are trying to do everything right when it come to buying with full clearances.
I find it incredibly unethical to see inaccurate clearence information listed on purpose.
I grant he may have prelims, but I can not verify on Orthopedic Foundation for Animals. He most certainly does not have clearences. OFFA does not issue them until 2 years of age. I have seen dogs get good prelims, only to fail at 2. 
Based on the fact she says the girls are in heat now she obviously plans to breed an under age dog with missing clearences to two bitches.:no:


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## sonusmomma (Sep 11, 2012)

whiskey creek goldens said:


> Hi all....
> 
> I have been reading all you have had to say and I would like to clear up any misunderstanding in regards to Mandy's big chace (chace) Sprinkles sire. He was one of my first goldens not quite sure when we had his hips done but around 12-13 years ago. If I remember correctly GRCA did not have the recommendation to do elbow at that time. so we did not do them. I can say that he lived a very long and happy life. He never took any drugs for arthritis. He had his last eye exam just 6-8 months before he passed away which was clear. He did not pass away from cancer. In fact it was a sowing needle that took him from us just recently. He ate a sowing needle, we went in to get it and the surgery was to much for my old guy. We had to let him go the next day. Until that day he went to work every day with my husband. He still ran and plaid like a two year old at the age of 12.5 Boy to I miss him.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for all this information. We actually did end up purchasing our little boy from Sprinkles and Heaths litter and can't be anymore happier. He's a bright, beautiful boy that has been far too easy so far. 

I had a great experience with visiting her place twice and was very happy with how open she was in answering all my questions and concerns. I continue to keep in great contact with her. She actually did provide a packet that contained proof of the different clearances through the pedigree. 

I really appreciate everyone's advice on here and am very grateful since this is my first golden and I really needed all your expertise. I was able to ask her questions that would've never crossed my mind. 

As for her current breeding plans I can't say anything about. The only breeding we had knowledge about at the time we found Sonu's litter was only that one.


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## PatnAlice (Oct 30, 2012)

It was strictly a human error there was no intent of trying to mislead anyone! Website now reflects "prelim" on hips and elbows. I do want to thank Laura and Christa the only ones nice enough to notify me of the error in a nice un-public way. As for my choice to bred with this dog, it was a hurried decision and I was under the assumption the dog had all his clearances, I have followed this dog since he was a pup but for some reason I had it down he was older by several months so when I asked what the hips came back as and the owner said good there was a miscommunication, when I went into k9 data where it clearly said they were prelims I only quickly verified the good and normal part. While this is no excuse that time frame was rather crazy for me I had just lost a special dog to a blood clot who died in my arms, and my brothers office was bombed (military, lucky he had just stepped out). I had two dogs come into heat early, that I personally wanted pups out of & this may be my only chance as i will be fixing them this coming year. so it was a quick decision. Right or wrong I will stand by it. But the problem with these forums is no one knows all the facts behind things. People can have Penn hips done before 2 years, can have hearts and eyes done and not submit them to a data base, and prelims can be done 30 days or basicslly at 23 months. how much changes can happen in 30 days? Enough to go from a good to not passing, I doubt it, but posdibly, but those are some issue only the breeder(s) may know about. To pass judgement and say publicly that someone is purposefully trying to deceive people is hurtful. Especially without contacting that person to see what really happened. I have been open and honest with everything I 
do, I have made mistakes, everyone does, but not ever purposefully.


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## PatnAlice (Oct 30, 2012)

I also want to acknowledge and thank the people who without my asking came to my defense here, that says a lot about what they think of me and my character, which means a lot to me. Thank you again. Alice


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Here is my point of view. My first breed able bitch was born in 1995. I did both hips and elbows done on her in 1997. My second breed able bitch was born in 1999. I did both hips and elbows on her in 2001... The first bitch was sired by Colabaugh's Daredevil born in 1990. He had his elbows done when he was 11, I believe. The dog in question, Chace has an OFA hip clearance from 2003. Certainly at that time he should have had his elbows done.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

You can compete in AKC events that do not involve politics... Obedience,rally,agility. I do not know the breeder in question, but I am hearing excuses. Every time that I have bred to a stud dog, if the clearance was not on OFA, where I always check first, then I get hard copies from the breeder prior to breeding. In this hobby of mine, I never assume anything and I really do not take anyone's word for things....


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## PatnAlice (Oct 30, 2012)

I said i made an error, and that i take full responsibility for it. As far as showing, most all of my adult dogs plus most all of my retired dogs have been multi- champions just not thru AKC, several have CGC, and my one boy I have now is currently being shown by a handler in AKC and i have showed him myself in several shows and put his first AKC point on him myself when he was just 6 months. It is not that I am not active with my animals I just prefer different avenues that i feel are personally more rewarding, just because people do not show their dogs via AKC does not mean we are not active, nor love, nor  take care of dogs equally to those who do.


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## GoldenPeach (Nov 1, 2012)

What is a Multi champion?

Sheila


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I believe the term refers to multiple titles earned in other registries or organizations. In the US the term Champion/Grand Champion or abbreviations CH/GCH are recognized as an AKC title. There are also championships awarded by other organizations such as the UKC (U-CH or UKC CH) or International show circuit(INT'L CH or UCI INT'L CH).


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

PatnAlice said:


> As far as showing, most all of my adult dogs plus most all of my retired dogs have been multi- champions just not thru AKC, several have CGC, and my one boy I have now is currently being shown by a handler in AKC and i have showed him myself in several shows and put his first AKC point on him myself when he was just 6 months.
> 
> 
> If not champions thru AKC, then where? UKC. CKC??
> ...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I agree that their are other registries and places to compete.. Mine have competed in AKC, CKC, AND UKC... The point being that I think that anyone who does something with their dogs deserves credit. My comment was aimed more at Chace's owner who I believe said his hips were done 12 or 13 years ago, but it was really 2003. In 2003, people should have known to do elbows. In 2002, I bred to a dog that was a 1997 model with no elbow clearance. It was my first litter and it always bugged me... But none of the pups had any clinically lame elbows and my girl had OFA clear elbows and her daughter that I kept has clear elbows. First and last time I bred to a dog without an elbow clearance...


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> My comment was aimed more at Chace's owner who I believe said his hips were done 12 or 13 years ago, but it was really 2003. In 2003, people should have known to do elbows.


You know Sally's Mom you are right.... I should have known better in 2003 but I did not. I was not part of a club and did not have all of the information I have now. I have learned a lot in that time. I have joined clubs I am a board member of the pacific rim golden retriever club of Oregon. I have had some great mentors in the last couple of years who have tough me a great deal. 

I would just like to say for the record that I think this forum is nasty and mean when it comes to people passing judgement on others based on what one can look up on a data base or a website. 

My introduction to this forum was the same as Alice's. it was mean and nasty comments about the fact that I did not have all of my clearances on my dogs when in fact I did I just chose not to send them into OFA to be publicly registered. I am only talking of Eye and Hearts of course you Could look up the hips and elbows but not my penn-hip witch I also do.

The fact is that I have a great breeding program producing smart, healthy and beautiful dogs. That have long healthy lives free of health issues. Dogs that can work in the field in the morning and go play show dog in the afternoon and then earn a title in obedience after that. 

Mia, my current special was out of my first attempt at a "show Breeding" took her first BOB and group placement at 12 months over specials, finished her CH at 15 month's, finished her GCH at 19 months in one weekend at the Norcal cluster. She just finished her RN, BN, CD, CGC, and TDI. She is 1/2 to her SDHF. In 2013 she will work on her WC and her JH to earn her VCX. Not bad for my fist real show dog if i don't say so myself!!! And ya she was MY breeding!! 

Mia has gone in the ring and won over dogs such as Sydney and Chloe the # 1 and 2 show goldens in the nation. Once again not bad for my first bred by show dog.

Alice owns one of my boys at 6 months and one day taking his first points. By the way Alice congrats on his WD today!! He looked great in the ring.

My new up and comer Ali took RWB to a major her second weekend out.

My point is you do not know me or Alice you do not have all the facts stop pointing finger and being so mean. It is not good for this forum. It can and does hurt the reputation of good people/breeders when you pass judgment without having all the facts. JMHO!!!!


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

whiskey creek goldens;1837111
I would just like to say for the record that I think this forum is nasty and mean when it comes to people passing judgement on others based on what one can look up on a data base or a website.
You may feel that way said:


> independently[/B], that those clearances have been done. There are too many threads on here, where a breeder has said they have done all the clearances when they have not. Databases provide that verification.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

whiskey creek goldens said:


> ... I just chose not to send them into OFA to be publicly registered...


I'm curious why would you choose not send them into OFA?


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

Millie'sMom said:


> whiskey creek goldens;1837111
> But said:
> 
> 
> ...


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

mylissyk said:


> I'm curious why would you choose not send them into OFA?



At the time my husband was out of work and money was short. The priority was the dogs and good food and nice comfortable place for them to sleep and run. If we lost our house they would have had neither. Once we got back on our feet all of the testing was sent in and registered. 
Thank you for asking the question!!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I still to this day have people question me about my clearances based on a thread on the forum even though all of my dogs (that are of age) have chic cards.


And THAT is the beauty of this forum. To educate the public as much as possible as to what to ask for and what is accepted!!
By the way, for the dogs that have CHIC certificates then they ARE listed in the database because they were submitted for verification or they can not be issued a CHIC number/certificate. But remember a CHIC number/certificate does NOT mean a dog has it's clearances it only means the dog was SUBMITTED for the four clearances, they do not have to pass them for a CHIC.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

I am curious. You have Shelby, one of your breeding dogs, as having prelims done at 23 months. Why wouldn't you wait only one more month and it would have made it a valid clearance? Prelims are not clearances at any point before 24 months.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

Shelby I goofed on her b-day I thought she turned two on the 8/12/2010 so had her OFA done found out after I got the prelim back that I had the wrong date and her b-day is 8/14/2010. By that time she had been bred. I would be very surprised and shocked if her good and normal changed in two days time. But we will wait for her final until she is no longer nursing. We do have a penn-hip on her. 

once again thanks for asking see what you can learn!!


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

AmbikaGR said:


> a CHIC number/certificate. But remember a CHIC number/certificate does NOT mean a dog has it's clearances it only means the dog was SUBMITTED for the four clearances, they do not have to pass them for a CHIC.


I thought OFA started listing the results of the clearance on the CHIC card as well for example it would say HIPS GOOD THE OFA NUMBER AND THE DATE OF TEST. I think I have seen them this way recently but I may be mistaken.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

AmbikaGR said:


> And THAT is the beauty of this forum. To educate the public as much as possible as to what to ask for and what is accepted!!


I agree however there is a nice way of educating the public without damaging the reputation of the breeder/person in question.  I still know many many breeders of Nice show dogs that do not send in there eye and heart clearances. Would I not buy a puppy from them or would I not recommend them to any of you? The answer would be No! I would call them and ask for them if I was interested in a puppy. the public looks to us to tell them this. but that message seems to get lost in all the mud slinging. once again JMO


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

whiskey creek goldens said:


> Shelby I goofed on her b-day I thought she turned two on the 8/12/2010 so had her OFA done found out after I got the prelim back that I had the wrong date and her b-day is 8/12/2010. By that time she had been bred. I would be very surprised and shocked if her good and normal changed in two days time. But we will wait for her final until she is no longer nursing. We do have a penn-hip on her.
> 
> once again thanks for asking see what you can learn!!


Hip or Elbow x-rays are not a clearance no matter where you have them x-rayed until you get the results back from OFA. Why was she breed before you received the results? If her birthday is Aug. 14th and you had the x-rays done only two days prior on Aug. 12th why was she breed around Aug. 1st? You had her x-rayed while she was pregnant? You have her listed as having puppies on Oct. 4th.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I thought OFA started listing the results of the clearance on the CHIC card as well for example it would say HIPS GOOD THE OFA NUMBER AND THE DATE OF TEST. I think I have seen them this way recently but I may be mistaken.



Yes they do list them. But again a dog does not have to pass all (or any) clearance to get a CHIC certificate. The exams just need to done and submitted. My Oriana did not clear eyes - retinal dysplasia - and she has a CHIC certificate. Just had to submit a copy of the failed CERF exam to OFA to qualify as a CHIC dog.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I agree however there is a nice way of educating the public without damaging the reputation of the breeder/person in question.  I still know many many breeders of Nice show dogs that do not send in there eye and heart clearances. Would I not buy a puppy from them or would I not recommend them to any of you? The answer would be No! I would call them and ask for them if I was interested in a puppy. the public looks to us to tell them this. but that message seems to get lost in all the mud slinging. once again JMO


Reputation os not damaged, the breeder just needs to explain why they are not following the GRCA Code Of Ethics. While the practice was accepted in the past for not submitting the heart and eye clearance to an online database it is not any more. The fees are minimal when compared to the price of a pup, there really is no excuse. We need to get in front of protecting this breed we love and not so much protecting breeders from not making health info public. If that were the case the past 20-30 years maybe we would not be finding ourselves in the position with problems we have today. And it is NOT mud slinging. 



MGMF said:


> Hip or Elbow x-rays are not a clearance no matter where you have them x-rayed until you get the results back from OFA.


Not entirely accurate as they can be done by PennHip. But seeing as PennHip does not have a public database those results should then be forwarded to a place such as OFA for inclusion there. I believe the fee is $30 to do so. Again a small cost. And also remember that although PennHip will issue a clearance before the age of 24 months GRCA and OFA do not recognize it as a final - just a prelim.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

Yes that may have come out incorrectly. Penn hip is a way to evaluate hips and acceptable. I meant to say it is not an OFA clearance which is what they were searching for if they received OFA prelim certificate. If I understand it correctly Penn Hip does not grade elbows?


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

MGMF said:


> Hip or Elbow x-rays are not a clearance no matter where you have them x-rayed until you get the results back from OFA. Why was she breed before you received the results? If her birthday is Aug. 14th and you had the x-rays done only two days prior on Aug. 12th why was she breed around Aug. 1st? You had her x-rayed while she was pregnant? You have her listed as having puppies on Oct. 4th.


FYI she WAS bred on the 12th but I forgot YOU know what I do and when I do it. Forgive me for forgetting that fact.:doh: 

After seeing her hips and elbows (which where done by an orthodontic vet) and with her penn-hip. I was confident that she would pass. So yes I bred her before her finals Not that any of the top breeder in the US and Canada would not have done the same. 

Yes she delivered on the 4th over a week early!! We lost a couple of puppies in the process as they where under developed, and we worked like hell to save the rest. which by the way are gorgeous!! 

According to the GRCA code of ethics a penn-hip is a recognized clearance for hips!! They where done the same day and unlike OFA They are a final remember it was just two days before she was two really!! give me a brake


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> We need to get in front of protecting this breed we love and not so much protecting breeders from not making health info public. If that were the case the past 20-30 years maybe we would not be finding ourselves in the position with problems we have today.


Truly well said, Hank.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

whiskey creek goldens said:


> According to the GRCA code of ethics a penn-hip is a recognized clearance for hips!!


As long as it is done AFTER the age of 24 months AND it is submitted to one of the online databases.
Directly from the GRCA Code of Ethics
_
Hips – a report from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) or PennHIP at 24 months of age or older. Since PennHIP results are not automatically published, these results should be recorded in an approved online database as described above._


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

I think this forum sends mixed messages about heart and eye clearances being submitted to the OFA. The most important part is that the clearance is done, it is recommended strongly that these are submitted to the correct online database, but I don't think it generally makes a breeder bad or unethical for forgetting to send in the most recent exam, ect. But if a potential puppy buyer asks about a breeding pair where the eye or heart clearances have not been submitted, I will recommend them ask for it, and ensure the eye exam is current and let them know the national club recommends these exams be submitted to an online verifiable database. Generally careful breeders scan the exam forms in and make them available for the public and for their puppy buyers. 

I agree, that the value of nit picking clearances to the general public, far out weighs a breeder's worry of having their reputation hurt. If you are an ethical breeder, when puppy buyers read through the information and look at your breeding pairs, ask their questions they should be satisfied. The end result is that everyone is more aware of the expectations we are holding each other to.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

"JUST DO IT" and nobody has to ask, assume or second guess.
Not sure why adhering to the COE in reference to clearances is such a difficult choice.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

Just for the record this is the first time I have bred on a prelim and that was by mistake in this case. Once in 15 years Ill take it and own it.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

When you send an OFA application in, your dog's birthdate is on the application...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And I have certainly bred to dogs whose heart or eye clearance was not sent in. In that case, I get physical proof... All of my breeding dogs get all sent in...


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

Whiskey Creek Goldens: You can "independently" verify all of the clearances by asking the breeder to provide them for you.

Asking the breeder is NOT independently verifying them. I want a get the information from an neutral third party.

Whiskey Creek Goldens: I always provide color copies of all reports in a nice book along with photos of each dog in the pedigree of the puppy, all titles, and all clearances on each dog (if i can find them).

You only send the clearances "if you can find them"???? My dogs are not breeding animals, but I know exactly where all their paperwork is, including clearances.

Whiskey Creek Goldens: NOT LISTED ON OFA IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY DO NOT HAVE A CLEARANCE!!!!. Just because you may not see an EYE or heart clearance also does not mean the dog is not clear. That is the point I am trying to make.

The point I am trying to make, is if they are listed in the database, I have an independent authority confirming that the clearances were obtained and done by the appropriate vet. For hearts a cardiologist not a general practice vet.

Whiskey Creek Goldens: I still to this day have people question me about my clearances based on a thread on the forum even though all of my dogs (that are of age) have chic cards.

Then send the appropriate clearance to the databases and follow the COE and you should have no more trouble with questions about this thread.

Whiskey Creek Goldens: Shelby I goofed on her b-day I thought she turned two on the 8/12/2010 so had her OFA done found out after I got the prelim back that I had the wrong date and her b-day is 8/14/2010. By that time she had been bred. 

You still bred her before you had her final clearances.

Whiskey Creek Goldens: FYI she WAS bred on the 12

So you bred her the same day you x-rayed her? I would not want to expose eggs that have the potential to become puppies exposed to radiation.

Whiskey Creek Goldens: After seeing her hips and elbows (which where done by an orthodontic vet) and with her penn-hip. I was confident that she would pass. So yes I bred her before her finals Not that any of the top breeder in the US and Canada would not have done the same. 

That is a bit arrogant from someone who claims she is currently working with her first attempt at show breeding. I am positive that most top breeders in 
Canada and the United States would NOT bred before having final clearance. 

Whiskey Creek Goldens: According to the GRCA code of ethics a penn-hip is a recognized clearance for hips!![/quote]

As has been repeated before, only when done after 24 months.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> When you send an OFA application in, your dog's birthdate is on the application...


ummm your point?? I filled out the information on the form without looking at her registration papers. I took three dogs with me that day and I simply goofed on her birthday by two days. oops my bad that does not make me a BYB, a puppymill. a or even make my puppies unworthy of being born.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

*Whiskey Creek Goldens: I always provide color copies of all reports in a nice book along with photos of each dog in the pedigree of the puppy, all titles, and all clearances on each dog (if i can find them).

You only send the clearances "if you can find them"???? My dogs are not breeding animals, but I know exactly where all their paperwork is, including clearances.

*_If you read what she wrote, she said that she does this for each dog in the pedigree. She also said she sends in her eye and heart clearances now. But some breeders don't bother to show the buyers the clearances behind each parent, so the grand-parents, ect. Some dogs generations back might be impossible to find health clearance information on. It would be nice if everything was perfectly sent in to the OFA on all four for many generations, but that is pretty unrealistic, at this point. 

It looks like she x-rayed the bitch 2 days before breeding. Once the breeding takes place it is likely a couple days before the fertilized eggs actually attach to the uterine walls. So though not the best situation, x-rays would not cause a problem. 

There are in fact situations where very well regarded breeders will breed a dog or bitch on prelims, depending on the circumstance, though everyone agrees this is not a practice to do on a regular basis, and should not be made lightly. 

I believe she said a litter she bred a few years ago was her first try at show-breeding, the resulting bitch she kept is an American grand champion and has a few other titles too. 

That shouldn't be down played, it can take a decade for a breeder to breed their first american champion. 

Again, I am not defending breeding the bitch on prelims, just setting the record straight, I think you misunderstood much of what Whiskey Creek Goldens said in her post. 
_


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

Whiskey Creek Goldens: You can "independently" verify all of the clearances by asking the breeder to provide them for you.

Asking the breeder is NOT independently verifying them. I want a get the information from an neutral third party.

Whiskey Creek Goldens: I always provide color copies of all reports in a nice book along with photos of each dog in the pedigree of the puppy, all titles, and all clearances on each dog (if i can find them). I was talking of the other dogs in the pedigree that I do not own sometimes i can not find all of their information.

You only send the clearances "if you can find them"???? My dogs are not breeding animals, but I know exactly where all their paperwork is, including clearances. I also know where all of my information is

Whiskey Creek Goldens: NOT LISTED ON OFA IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY DO NOT HAVE A CLEARANCE!!!!. Just because you may not see an EYE or heart clearance also does not mean the dog is not clear. That is the point I am trying to make.

The point I am trying to make, is if they are listed in the database, I have an independent authority confirming that the clearances were obtained and done by the appropriate vet. For hearts a cardiologist not a general practice vet.

Whiskey Creek Goldens: I still to this day have people question me about my clearances based on a thread on the forum even though all of my dogs (that are of age) have chic cards.

Then send the appropriate clearance to the databases and follow the COE and you should have no more trouble with questions about this thread. i do 

Whiskey Creek Goldens: Shelby I goofed on her b-day I thought she turned two on the 8/12/2010 so had her OFA done found out after I got the prelim back that I had the wrong date and her b-day is 8/14/2010. By that time she had been bred. 

You still bred her before you had her final clearances. yep i did

Whiskey Creek Goldens: FYI she WAS bred on the 12

So you bred her the same day you x-rayed her? I would not want to expose eggs that have the potential to become puppies exposed to radiation. yep asked the Dr what he thought he gave me the green light are you a vet??

Whiskey Creek Goldens: After seeing her hips and elbows (which where done by an orthodontic vet) and with her penn-hip. I was confident that she would pass. So yes I bred her before her finals Not that any of the top breeder in the US and Canada would not have done the same. 

That is a bit arrogant from someone who claims she is currently working with her first attempt at show breeding. I am positive that most top breeders in 
Canada and the United States would NOT bred before having final clearance. ha ha ha ha it is done all the time with boys I can tell you are not a breeder you would know this 

Whiskey Creek Goldens: According to the GRCA code of ethics a penn-hip is a recognized clearance for hips!![/quote]

As has been repeated before, only when done after 24 months.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

whiskey creek goldens said:


> ummm your point?? I filled out the information on the form without looking at her registration papers. I took three dogs with me that day and I simply goofed on her birthday by two days. oops my bad that does not make me a BYB, a puppymill. a or even make my puppies unworthy of being born.


the fact is that regardless of whether you goofed or not you bred the dog without the clearance... you did the xrays the day you bred which means that you didn't get the clearance until several weeks later. That is breeding without a clearance with or without the error.... 

Let me also just add one thing... there are things that the old time breeders, long time breeders and top breeders do (because they have been around the block a few times for many years) YOU are not one of them.... I have often said that there are things that they do because of their status in the breed that I wouldn't dare to do because I haven't been around as long as they have... 15 years is a drop in the bucket and makes you a relative newby.... 

you are all defensive and as someone who is saying they are in the breed because they love it and wish to improve it... YOU of all people should understand where everyone is coming from... Get your ducks in a row... put your paperwork where you can find it... and don't do stuff that makes people question your ethics and you won't have any problems...


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

Shalva said:


> the fact is that regardless of whether you goofed or not you bred the dog without the clearance... you did the xrays the day you bred which means that you didn't get the clearance until several weeks later. That is breeding without a clearance with or without the error....
> 
> Let me also just add one thing... there are things that the old time breeders, long time breeders and top breeders do (because they have been around the block a few times for many years) YOU are not one of them.... I have often said that there are things that they do because of their status in the breed that I wouldn't dare to do because I haven't been around as long as they have... 15 years is a drop in the bucket and makes you a relative newby....
> 
> you are all defensive and as someone who is saying they are in the breed because they love it and wish to improve it... YOU of all people should understand where everyone is coming from... Get your ducks in a row... put your paperwork where you can find it... and don't do stuff that makes people question your ethics and you won't have any problems...


Well said!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

whiskey creek goldens said:


> ummm your point?? I filled out the information on the form without looking at her registration papers. I took three dogs with me that day and I simply goofed on her birthday by two days. oops my bad that does not make me a BYB, a puppymill. a or even make my puppies unworthy of being born.


A tad defensive. I just put that remark in this thread for those who do,not know how OFA works for hip and elbow clearances. I do not know you and I have never said you were a BYB or puppy mill or said your puppies were unworthy of being born. I think that you have nice dogs, based on photos and pedigrees. Where you and I seem to disagree is when you said that Chace's hip clearance was done 12 or 13 years ago. That information can be checked on OFA and in fact,was 9 years ago. IMO, big difference in time re: to do elbows or not.... The dog I bred to in 2004, a 1999 model had his elbows done in 2004. And my Laney's dad had his elbows done at around 11 years.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

As veterinarians, we have to put the correct birthdate on the OFA application.  Then both the owner and the vet sign the application saying the info is correct....


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

Shalva said:


> Let me also just add one thing... there are things that the old time breeders, long time breeders and top breeders do (because they have been around the block a few times for many years) YOU are not one of them.... I have often said that there are things that they do because of their status in the breed that I wouldn't dare to do because I haven't been around as long as they have... 15 years is a drop in the bucket and makes you a relative newby....
> 
> First I have been around for a very long time. I grew up in this world I learned from the best, my parents. Who for 50 years bred dogs. I learned everything I know from them. Yes I may be relativity new to goldens but I came from the old days. My parent where amazing breeders that helped create the peak, rotty, and saint we all know today. When I got my first golden who was from field lines. I took those lines and in less then 3 years without line breeding I took that line of field dogs and turned them into show dogs that can actually do the job they where bred to do. That takes lot of thought and attention to detail. So please do not discount my eye for detail or my knowledge when it comes to breeding.
> 
> you are all defensive and as someone who is saying they are in the breed because they love it and wish to improve it... YOU of all people should understand where everyone is coming from... Get your ducks in a row... put your paperwork where you can find it... and don't do stuff that makes people question your ethics and you won't have any problems...


second for the most part my ducks are in a row on this one occasion i made a mistake as stated before this is my first breeding on a prelim and it was an over-site on my part witch i have also confessed to. 

yes i am defensive as you do not know me and you to not know how much hard work I have put into my breeding program. To have it put under a magnifying glass would put any one of you on the defensive. 

I have said my peace now I am done


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I just want to say EASY...to everyone!! I think we are all being harsh now! WhiskeyCreek admitted her wrong and noted that this was YEARS ago and she now sends her eye and cardiac clearances in. So why are we all harping??

What is done is done. I think she knows that she was in the wrong at the time. Everyone makes mistakes.

I know "Big breeders" breed on Prelims, but I would not follow in their footsteps just because they are well known. I hope no one would do that. 

Clearances should be sent in. Period. Lets drop it.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> A tad defensive. I just put that remark in this thread for those who do,not know how OFA works for hip and elbow clearances. I do not know you and I have never said you were a BYB or puppy mill or said your puppies were unworthy of being born. I think that you have nice dogs, based on photos and pedigrees. Where you and I seem to disagree is when you said that Chace's hip clearance was done 12 or 13 years ago. That information can be checked on OFA and in fact,was 9 years ago. IMO, big difference in time re: to do elbows or not.... The dog I bred to in 2004, a 1999 model had his elbows done in 2004. And my Laney's dad had his elbows done at around 11 years.



I think she said she made a mistake by not doing his elbows at the time, though still using him now has not been addressed. Everyone makes choices they might not be proud of, I give her credit for discussing them. I think she feels defensive because this discussion is happening on an open forum to the public. Many pet buyers simply do not understand how complicated breeding is, and by the tone of this thread might assume she is not a reputable breeder. I hope this discussion can be moved privately and allow those that have questions to get them answered without making assumptions about this breeder, as many posts I read previously (not this post) were based on sentences that were read incorrectly and shed this breeder in a less than flattering light for no reason.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

kdowningxc said:


> I think she said she made a mistake by not doing his elbows at the time, though still using him now has not been addressed. Everyone makes choices they might not be proud of, I give her credit for discussing them. I think she feels defensive because this discussion is happening on an open forum to the public. Many pet buyers simply do not understand how complicated breeding is, and by the tone of this thread might assume she is not a reputable breeder. I hope this discussion can be moved privately and allow those that have questions to get them answered without making assumptions about this breeder, as many posts I read previously (not this post) were based on sentences that were read incorrectly and shed this breeder in a less than flattering light for no reason.


Chace the boy without the elbow clearnce has passed away. He was bred maybe 6 times in his life time. All of his kids that have been in breeding programs have passed their elbows. There is no way to "still be using him" as he was not collected though I wish I had. He was one of the smartest dog I ever new, and what a nose he had. he could find anything you scented. I only wish I had realized how special he was and done some nose work with him. i wish i had another boy just like him, I have a shot. I just bred the only daughter I kept out of him, to one of my other really smart boys, and yes They both have there clearances!! if you would like to look them up her name is Whiskey Creeks Chace N A Dream. his name is Whiskey creeks golden boy. 

I have my fingers crossed for another dog just like him


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

kdowningxc said:


> I think she feels defensive because this discussion is happening on an open forum to the pubic.
> 
> I hope this discussion can be moved privately...
> 
> many posts I read previously (not this post) were based on sentences that were read incorrectly and shed this breeder in a less than flattering light for no reason.


Actually, I believe I did read them correctly. There are way to many inconsistencies in her story, excuses and a lot of self promotion on how wonderful her dogs are. 

I don't think she wants this discussion moved privately, as she seems intent on continuing to drag this thread back. It was buried from mid Sept til end of Oct, when she decided to post and drag it back into the mainstream and again Nov 1 to 5, if she truly did not wish it to continue then it would be more appropriate to just let it fall of the "radar" Even when she says she is finished, she still continues to post.

I wouldn't buy a puppy from her and she probably wouldn't sell one to me, and that is fine. I, too am finished with this thread, and I follow through on what I say.


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

There is no _falling off the radar_ when there is a search function.


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## jtom (Jan 31, 2011)

It's interesting to me that this thread started with one person asking about one breeder and seems to have ended up talking about another breeder. In my opinion posters that are not breeders have made some very inflammatory remarks about both breeders. It seems to me that the good things far out way the bad with both of the breeder. People are human and do make mistakes both of the breeders acknowledge them. 

I know krista of whisky creek very well. I have had the pleasure of watching Mia in the ring and field. she is every thing and more then what krista posted. I would not hesitate to get a puppy from this breeder. 

I do not know the other breeder but if krista thinks she a a good enough to hand over a puppy to I would have to agree.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Off my soap box and out of this thread.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

whiskey creek goldens said:


> Chace the boy without the elbow clearnce has passed away. He was bred maybe 6 times in his life time. All of his kids that have been in breeding programs have passed their elbows. There is no way to "still be using him" as he was not collected though I wish I had. He was one of the smartest dog I ever new, and what a nose he had. he could find anything you scented. I only wish I had realized how special he was and done some nose work with him. i wish i had another boy just like him, I have a shot. I just bred the only daughter I kept out of him, to one of my other really smart boys, and yes she has all of her clearances!! if you would like to look her up her name is Whiskey Creeks Chace N A Dream.
> 
> I have my fingers crossed for another dog just like him


I guess I was confused, I thought someone said something about a frozen breeding using him....ehh...anyways...glad he was a good boy in his day!

This thread in general is really making me angry. 

Millie'sMOm you have misunderstood a lot of what is said . I am not going to assume anything about your experience in breeding, showing and health research of goldens, but I am going to guess you haven't been breeding for 15 years and bred an AKC champion. I'm just saying you posted about her not keeping track of her breeding dog's health clearances THAT WASN'T WHAT SHE SAID!!! She said she researches all of the dogs in the pedigree and provides copies of all the health clearances she can find to her puppy buyers. Her current dogs are all available on the OFA website..I really think this will be more productive IN PRIVATE! 

This forum is not meant to interrogate breeders on their breeding decisions. And especially not meant for people to take breeder's words out of context and spread untruths about their breeding practices. 

I think if you feel the need to keep making assumptions or would like to continue an actual productive discussion with Whiskey creek, maybe you could PM her for instance. 

This thread is crazy, these breeders are not the ones we should be giving a hard time to, they are the ones we should be positively encouraging to stay in the community and work to improve what they are already doing well, as well as add to the discussions in a productive way, and thus we can all learn from one another. Pushing these people away will do nothing but lower the number of actual breeders on this forum, which is already quite low.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Just remember, don't go to bed angry....


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm not loosing sleep nor am I infuriated, but I do feel like we as a community have bigger fish to fry than a breeder who bred a bitch on prelims done at 23+months of age....(not that I agree) I just really don't feel like its worth emphasizing, when there are breeders out there breeding dogs with no clearances at all, or not doing anything with their dogs in terms of competition. If people want to mentor Whiskey Creek to do better, that's great, but using the forum to do that, without a good means of communication just isn't productive for anyone.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I know if I bred Lushie on the same day she went to get clearances, I would catch heck from all sides. If I bred girls over and over to one untitled dog also residing in my household, even if he had clearances, I would catch flack. If I forgot Lush's birth date and did her clearances a month early, I know the forum would talk to me about that. I think the feedback is pretty consistent to everyone, and it is motivation to learn more, be better, and try harder. I think breeding a volume pet dogs with fully cleared parents residing in the household is a gentleman's C. Could be worse, could be much better.

In a way, peer pressure to do better and hew to the best practices is one of the few ways the GRCA code of ethics is enforced.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Ljilly, exactly.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

I absolutely agree! But I think that there were posts being much less helpful and supportive, and more accusatory, and that tone isn't healthy for a forum to have when our goals are education, not condemnation. I might not feel this strongly about this when a horrible puppy mill-like breeder comes to the forum to spread their lies, but I have respect for Whiskey Creek, and I accept that sometimes people are not perfect, we should give her a chance to feel comfortable in the community. It felt more like a witch hunt for a while, and words were taken out of context, and even facts misrepresented, which I just didn't feel was very fair. But I do hope this type of breeding doesn't happen again, it truly is not good practice and whiskey creek stays around to hear about the wisdom others have to offer, and maybe offers up some of her own as well.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

I am Going to chime back in. I have been a member of this forum for a couple of years. In that time I have tried to be helpful when I can. I have posted question I need help with. I have posted the overwhelming happiness of my first bred by CH, and GCH. I have posted the overwhelming sadness of the loss of my dogs.

My introduction to this forum was a thread just like this one, however I did not have someone come here to support me like I did Alice. What did I get for my support in this case? Another kicked in the teeth by people who do not breed have no understanding what it takes. people that do not understand why we might make an unpopular choice in breeding.

In both treads (the one about me only and this one) I was accused of not doing clearances. When the fact was I did and had been doing them all along i just did not send them into OFA (i'm talking about eyes, heart and penn-hip) but listed them on k9-data a public registry. When people question me I try to give an honest answer. When I said Chace had his hips done about 11-12 year ago I did not look up the actual day it was a guess...... Someone then has to look it up just to see if I am being truthful. It turns out he was OFAed in 2003 so what! I was not lying or being deceitful it was a guess on the time frame?? The fact is I still acknowledged I should have known better. 

Then for someone else to go digging further just to make me look even worse is wrong. Out of all of my dogs Shelby is the first I have bred without I final OFA hip. the x-ray was done 2 days before her second birthday just how much are they going to change?? I took her to an orthopedic vet who has done my hips and elbows for years. He gave me the green light. I trust his expertise and bred her not realizing that I was two days off on her birthday. then for some one to accuse me of lying about when she was "Really bred". You where making assumptions about things you have no first hand knowledge of. bitches just like women have puppies early all the time. we lost puppies from this litter and worked really hard to save the rest thank goodness I have many years of experience that i was able to save them.

I do not understand how you can all be so judgmental about one thing when everything else is so good. 

I think that sometimes this forum does more harm to the good people then the bad. I get to look forward to more question about my integrity, my breeding program and, my code of ethics as this is public and searchable. There is no way to hide this and it will hurt both Alice and Myself when prospective puppy homes look for information about us.

I would like to thank the people who have come here in support of me.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

So I re read this thread and my posts...at the beginning, the breeding was posted and I put in my two cents concerning clearances regarding the breeding. As always, I do say I didn't find it on OFA which is really code for it might have been done, but not sent in... Then the owner of said dog says well his clearances were done "12 or 13 years ago". For me that is an invitation to look it up on OFA. First of all the dog in question was born 8/99, second of all the hip only clearance was done in 2003. As an owner and very occasional breeder, I know when and which clearances were done on my dogs... Yet the dog in question had a CERF done in 2001.. And sired a litter prior to any hip clearance in 2002. The original breeder in question said that she bred her bitch on the "assumption the stud dog had all clearances". We all know what happens when one assumes. And finally, friend of the original breeder in question comes on to write, "just for the record this is the first time I bred on a prelim.". Well that may be true, but she has also,used her male with the hip only clearance ,prior to his hip only clearance. Quite frankly, I really do not care what anyone does. Breeding is always a judgment call.... And bad things do happen to breeders who try to do all of the "right" things... But if it can be looked up, it will..

My Laney's daddy, Am/Can Ch Colabaugh's Daredevil UDX, etc etc DOB 11/8/90 had his elbows done 11/12/02.

And Ljilly, Ambika, Shalva, k9 Design who have all replied to this thread hold themselves up to a very high standard ...

This thread is not just about breeding a bitch at 23 months...


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> And sired a litter prior to any hip clearance in 2002. The original breeder in question said that she bred her bitch on the "assumption the stud dog had all clearances".


You are once again referring to two different dogs. The one that the original breeder has just bred to is having a litter on prelims. the other I owned until he passed in February. :doh:

Once again you are presuming things you do not have first hand knowledge of. Has it ever occurred to you that I may not have owned this dog at the time of the breeding in 2002?? Or that this was an Opps litter?? Never the less this was over ten years ago.

This is bordering on slander now STOP!!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am going to close the thread because the topics have been thoroughly covered.


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