# CCL (cruciate ligament) injury/surgery - BEWARE!!!



## Carlg1212 (Apr 20, 2020)

My 3 year old Golden starting limping. I took her to the vet. They said it's a torn CCL and it would cost $4,500 for surgery. Surgery consists of adding a steel plate to hold the knee joints together, and a 6-8 month bedrest (which is impossible with a Golden). Here's a picture of what the surgery looks: What Dog Owners Need to Know About Cruciate Ligament Injuries

The vet gave me some pain/sedation pills. She was on them for about 3 days when suddenly, she stopped limping. Ok. If it's a torn CCL, she'd still be limping. I kept her on the pills for 2 weeks, just to be safe. After 2 weeks, even while sedated (which seems impossible with a Golden), our Golden is chasing our youngest puppy around our pool like a crazy dog. Full speed. Crazy turns and jumps. Stopping on a dime and doing a full speed 180 degree turn. 

Obviously, there's no torn CCL. Not saying she won't have issues later in her life, but I am furious that the vet immediately jumped to the conclusion that she needed surgery. Hopefully everyone reading this will keep hope that maybe your Golden or other dog doesn't need surgery. I can't blame the vet, it's the Western medicine's dogma that everything is cured by pills and surgery, but definitely take their suggestions with a grain of salt.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Did you get a second opinion?

Great to hear your dog didn't need surgery.


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## jeffscott947 (Jun 9, 2019)

Almost anytime that surgery is suggested..I would seek a second opinion....the same goes for me too!
My primary vet has a few specialists on staff, and when my past Red Tri Aussie had a mouth tumor (turned out to be cancerous), my vet/surgeon got 2 separate opinions, internally, before proceeding with the debulking procedure. I was made fully aware that the procedure would only buy some time, and the eventual prognosis was poor.


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## Pytheis (Mar 17, 2016)

What? Just because a dog _that’s on pain medication _stops limping doesn’t mean the CCL isn’t torn. Dogs are masters at hiding pain, especially when they’re on meds that... make them not feel pain. My working line German shepherd tore his CCL a few weeks ago. I knew he tore it before I even got to the vet. The vet checked him out and said he was also sure he tore it. Just to be sure, they sedated him, took x-rays, and did a range of motion test. He tore it. Surgery was recommended. Three days later, while on pain medication and sedatives, his limp is completely gone and he has tons and tons of energy. If I allowed him to, he’d sprint around and do hard turns. I don’t allow him to because he’s injured and it’ll only make things worse. That doesn’t mean it isn’t torn. It doesn’t mean the vet lied.

I’m honestly not sure why you instantly jumped to the conclusion that after some rest and pain meds, your dog feeling better means the vet lied about the injury. That’s what the rest and pain meds were supposed to do. If you’re so sure you have a shyster vet, take your dog in for a second opinion. Please don’t assume your dog is fine and simply go back to life as it was before, because that could cause more unnecessary injury and pain for your dog. You don’t necessarily need surgery, but your dog will definitely need limited exercise so she can heal.


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

Did the vet xray the area to conclude there is a torn CCL? If it is torn and your dog needs the operation, I personally, would go to a board certified surgeon to have procedure done.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

After having a Golden puppy that had broken sesamoid bones in the tops of both feet a few years ago I can attest to that fact that Goldens' can fool you on their level of pain. Sesamoid bones are woven between the ligaments and nerves that run to the feet and his were in sharp pieces. We did not give Moe pain medicine unless absolutely necessary because the ortho vet and rehab specialist wanted to keep his activity level low. Their main fear was that pain meds would have him behaving as though he had no pain or injury and then his feet would not heal. It took a very long time for him to heal, but he did. 

After my experience with him I will also always get two opinions before surgery. 

Even if you think the surgery was done in error the surgery was still in fact done. If I were you I would limit activity to a safe level to promote healing and no further damage.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

An x-ray isn't going to tell you anything about ligaments. The standard to diagnose a CCL tear is called a drawer test which is where the vet manipulates the leg to see if the knee slides like a drawer. I've lived through my bridge boy going through bilateral TPLO (meaning he tore both ligaments and we repaired them both at the same time). The steel plate is screwed into the tibia and the cut bone at the top of the tibia. They cut the bone to change the angle of the top of the tibia, making a ligament unnecessary. My boy was only 12 months old when he had his surgery and he was back to normal within 4 months. Crate rest was only 8 weeks long to ensure the bone had healed 90% of the way (otherwise over activity can cause fractures and complicate healing). 

Having said that, do some dogs respond well to conservative management? Yes. That's where you restrict activity for an extended period of time to allow the body to develop scar tissue to secure the joint. 

My boy took about 3 months iirc to correctly diagnose b/c he would respond to anti-inflammatory medication (NSAIDS) and then out of no where he wouldn't be able to get up and would be limping.


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

Brave said:


> An x-ray isn't going to tell you anything about ligaments. The standard to diagnose a CCL tear is called a drawer test which is where the vet manipulates the leg to see if the knee slides like a drawer. I've lived through my bridge boy going through bilateral TPLO (meaning he tore both ligaments and we repaired them both at the same time). The steel plate is screwed into the tibia and the cut bone at the top of the tibia. They cut the bone to change the angle of the top of the tibia, making a ligament unnecessary. My boy was only 12 months old when he had his surgery and he was back to normal within 4 months. Crate rest was only 8 weeks long to ensure the bone had healed 90% of the way (otherwise over activity can cause fractures and complicate healing).
> 
> Having said that, do some dogs respond well to conservative management? Yes. That's where you restrict activity for an extended period of time to allow the body to develop scar tissue to secure the joint.
> 
> My boy took about 3 months iirc to correctly diagnose b/c he would respond to anti-inflammatory medication (NSAIDS) and then out of no where he wouldn't be able to get up and would be limping.


Good to know. I had a rescue golden go through the TPLO years ago and I couldn't remember how the doctor diagnosed it.


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## Carlg1212 (Apr 20, 2020)

Hello everyone,
I know it's been a while but I wanted to give you an update. 

I took my GR Kelly back to get x-rayed and diagnosed. The vet said she did have a torn CCL ~50% torn. That shocked me because I've known people with torn ACL's and they've said how painful it is and they can barely walk. I didn't see that with Kelly, just a slight limp. People have said GR's pain tolerance is my higher than people but Kelly is wagging her tail, running around, all that. If she's in pain she's hiding it well. 

The vet understood I was adverse to surgery and she said Kelly can heal by building up scar tissue. But she can't run full speed. That's ok for now because it's winter time and too cold for me to throw the ball around. The vet said I can take her for walks. 

I've been giving Kelly hemp/turmeric chews for a couple months now and I've noticed just yesterday she's not doing the lazy puppy sit all the time. I think she's healing up. 

I'm not ruling out surgery but I want to see if limiting her full-on running and these hemp/turmeric chews will work. Kelly may have to stay on them for the rest of her life.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Carlg1212 said:


> I'm not ruling out surgery but I want to see if limiting her full-on running and these hemp/turmeric chews will work.


Conservative management has worked for some dogs by allowing the tear to scar up to stabilize the joint. I encourage you to check FB for some groups re: this. I know there is one I used called "Canine Cruciate Recovery" that is a support for all types of recovery (surgical or non surgical) and I know there are groups dedicated to just conservative management. You might find more information in that type of group then you would here as there would be a higher population of users who are familiar with, have gone through, and/or can offer recommendations of real life experience.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Carlg1212 said:


> Surgery consists of adding a steel plate to hold the knee joints together, and a 6-8 month bedrest


TPLO surgery does not require 6-8 months bed rest.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

SRW said:


> TPLO surgery does not require 6-8 months bed rest.


When my Bear had bilateral TPLO back in 2013 he was on crate rest for 8 weeks and total recovery time including rehab took 20 weeks iirc. Conservative Management usually takes 4-6 months of no-activity cause you have to give the injury time to scar without disrupting it.  Not disputing, just sharing my experience.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Brave said:


> When my Bear had bilateral TPLO back in 2013 he was on crate rest for 8 weeks and total recovery time including rehab took 20 weeks iirc. Conservative Management usually takes 4-6 months of no-activity cause you have to give the injury time to scar without disrupting it. I have two training friends  Not disputing, just sharing my experience.


I am not implying that it is any fun. Two dogs in my training group had TPLO recently. Both were 100% recovered in 5-6 months, started light training at 12 weeks, short walks at 6-8 weeks.
I think one of them can actually run faster now than he could before. Both were young dogs, about 3, I'm sure that makes a huge difference in their recovery. In any case 6-8 months bed rest is not expected, there would have to be serious complications, infection, etc.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Max tore his left ACL a few years ago, at age 6 or 7. We tried rehab, but it soon became clear that rehab would not work. We found a vet who would bring in a board certified ortho to do the surgery for a flat fee of $2600. We had quotes as high as $4600. I dropped Max off at the vet at 8am and picked him up at 4pm. He walked out to the car for the 80 mile ride home. We kept him in an X-pen in the living room and he had to go out on a leash. Total rehab time was about 16 weeks of rest, as we gradually allowed him increased activity. He recovered to 100% use of the leg. Picture is shortly after the surgery, in the X-pen, wearing the cone--which was very annoying. Second picture is Max at the pool.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

I am glad that you took your dog back in for reassessment, they can heal without surgery BUT you are almost definitely condemning your dog to early onset OCD. Remarkably, our dog and a neighbour’s dog both tore their cruciate ligaments about a week apart. The neighbours decided against the surgery (yes, they could afford it but did not want to invest the time in rehab)- we went ahead with TPLO surgery by a board certified oseto specilaist. Yes, recovery took the full 10 weeks- with daily , restricted movement (yes, it can be done) and hydrotherapy but our dog made a full recovery- he was 9 at the time. Our neigbour’s dog was 6- for about a year, he seemed to have recovered- then suddenly, began limping on the affected leg. This time- he had fully torn the ligament and had already developed severe arthritis in the joint so was not a good candidate for the surgery. Not a good ending to this story. BTW- the $4500 you were quoted was VERY reasonable. When all was said and done- it cost us close to $8,000 and I would do it again in a heartbeat.


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## Carlg1212 (Apr 20, 2020)

Hey guys, 
I wanted to give an update on Kelly's leg. I went back and read my initial post and frankly I'm a little embarrassed and ashamed. 

I ended up getting her the TPLO surgery. I couldn't bear watching her limp on and off, realizing she was in pain and being stubborn and thinking it'll heal itself. It won't. It's been 4 weeks since her surgery and she's doing fine, almost a little too rambunctious. The first couple days were a little rough, seeing her basically bed-ridden but a few days later she was walking around fine.

This was a real learning experience for me about my stubbornness. My pride was more important than my best friend's health and that really hurts. The only thing I can say is if you're shy about surgery, take it from me...if the doctor says your dog needs it, they need it. If nothing more comes from this, I will definitely listen more to others' experiences and not be so stubborn.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

Very few people have the integrity to admit they were wrong and I am sure that your post will be of service to others. Our big boy had TPLO surgery four years ago and we can’t even find his scar. Unless you xrayed him, you would never know- he is completely sound- except for the 11 year old arthritis which is beginning- but interstingly, not in his stifle- but more in his hips- totally managed with Galliprant. You made the right choice!


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## Carlg1212 (Apr 20, 2020)

Hey guys,
We went in for Kelly's 6 week checkup around the middle of February, 2022. The vet said she's fully recovered! It took 6 weeks to recover. The vet said she could resume normal activities. I said "Does this mean I can play catch with her?". Vet said yes. It's been months since we've played ball. I wish I filmed her reaction when I took out a tennis ball and said "You wanna play catch?!?!?". Thanks for all the support. I really appreciate it.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Great to hear Kelly is fully recovered and is able to play again!


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