# Quite worried



## Tinsley (Nov 11, 2008)

i posted this a few days ago but it was a bit confusing so I will repost...

Does anyone have any idea what this may be?

http://dogwebs.net/Arangold/images/docs/sire hd info.pdf

I gather something to do with hip scores, Roo's Dad is Brunnental Legal Venture and he has a REALLY high number. On Roo's papers it gives his dam and sires hip scores, I think Legal Venture is down as 5 and 7, and Mum 6 and 6.

Also, on Roo's Dad's side, Garbank Starturn appears four times.
http://www.breedadog.com/litterpedigree.asp?litterid=16290

would you be concerned that he appears so many times?? I've read up about line breeding, but is this something that you personally would be concerned about?

I'm so frightened something awful is going to happen to Roo as it is, I'm hoping so much the above two things are nothing


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

PM Clare bluefairie, I'm sure her Hugo's Sire was a Brunnental dog, luckily Hugos mum brought a lot to the mix and Hugo has a lovely low hip score

I wouldn't be too concerned about the Roo's parents hip scores they are well bellow the breed average, which is 18


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## Tinsley (Nov 11, 2008)

Thank you, I have PM'd. Getting much more worried now, just found this article:

http://www.pet-chat.co.uk/3713.HTM

Hi Tony/Liz/Jim,
thanks for all the advice, it's nice to know I can talk to people. Firstly I went to see the friend I mentioned with 7 Retrievers today to ask for her advice also. She also recommended seeing a Pet Behaviorist and has given me a number of a good one, but first I have to get a Vet referral. I told my husband about this and he thinks I am over-reacting and is quite angry about the whole situation, which doesn't help, although he did say he would do what I want. *Secondly, she asked some of the same questions Jim asked and doesn't rate the Breeders where I purchased Jazz, which is quite worrying. I got her from Haycroft Kennels in Fleet, Holbeach. She is registered as a Brunnental. Apparently they over-breed and she has asked to see my Pedigree Certificate, so will take it round to her for her advice. *(By the way she is a trained Veterinary Nurse and Breeder and her husband a Dog Handler so have plenty of experience themselves, I just wish I knew about her before, as I am new to the area). I think I will give Lisa an e-mail and see what she thinks, before I do anything else at the moment, at least that might appease my husband a little. Before I go, just to put you in the picture a bit more Jazz started this behaviour when she was around 12 weeks old, she is now 19 weeks old. The first time she actually went for my husband and drew blood, but we put it down to the fact that she was ill, as the next day we had to take her to the Vets for a bad case of diahorrea and sickness. Then we had about a four week gap, before she went for me, that was over a chewy treat. Yesterday was the big one though as it was totally unexpected. She has growled at the kids a couple of times, but never snapped. She has always been possessive over things that she picks up outside and we practice the "off" command with reward of a treat and plenty of affection if she gives it up. Usually this works. She seems to have a bit of an independent nature and likes things on her terms. Anyway I'll get this posted and look forward to hearing your comments.
Fiona


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

here is Clare's web page http://www.spanglefish.com/CapervaleGoldens/index.asp?pageid=85100 
hopefully the post you linked too was a one off case, I know Hugo is a gentle giant, a total sweet heart. Clare bought her puppy Honey from me, and I get regular (daily) updates of both of them


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## Tinsley (Nov 11, 2008)

mist said:


> here is Clare's web page http://www.spanglefish.com/CapervaleGoldens/index.asp?pageid=85100
> hopefully the post you linked too was a one off case, I know Hugo is a gentle giant, a total sweet heart. Clare bought her puppy Honey from me, and I get regular (daily) updates of both of them


Yes I hope so too...I mean Roo is a lovely boy, I'm not at all worried about the behavioural points in that case study, just the fact she has heard they 'overbreed', the only info I can find on Haycroft Kennels or the Brunnentals has been negative so far... Its more the high number on the data table and that over breeding can cause genetic problems...Roo's full brother died at 8 months old, he jumped a style instead of climbing under and the vet tried to operate but for some reason his blood wasn't doing what it should and he had to be put down. When Roo was castrated the vet said his blood seemed fine as she was aware of his brother, but I'm so worried there may be other things like cancer lurking far too early in his future


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

I've also sent Clare the link to this post. Until I started Chatting to Clare I'd never heard of Brunnentals, but they do appear to have a lot of puppies for sale on the puppy sales sites, do they do health tests?


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

The list that you have mentioned is a list of all the stud dogs that have been used in the UK. The first number is the number of progeny that have had scored and the second is the average score. The breed average at present is around 19 - that is in total not each hip so they could be 9:10 etc. It is not 18:18 which would be a total of 36 and far too high to breed from. Most breeders would not breed with a male dog any higher than the breed average and most use a dog which is well below breed average. Obviously hips are only one part of breeding as the parents should have annual updates on their eye certificates as well as an excellent temperament working ability and look like a golden retriever.
The pedigree is not very closely bred and you will find dogs with much more close breeding than that. The pedigree is quite uncommon as very few show and working lines are mixed as it is often not a good combination. I don't know the kennel that you purchased your dog from. I have been breeding and showing goldens for over 40 years so I can only tell you that it is not a welknown show kennel. Hope this information helps. Annef


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

You can check the hip scores at the Standfast database. The hip score you have on your paperwork is the same I think. The list means that he has had one puppy scored and that scored a total score of 47. The kennel has bred several hundred puppies far far more than most show kennels. Annef


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

Sorry Anne I have gone back and corrected my original post.

depending on which sites I've looked the average varies between 18 or 19, I'm safe as Gracie is 3:3, and both times I have mated her I've always chosen dogs with low scores


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## Clare (Nov 2, 2007)

Hi

Hoogs dad is Brunnental War Lord and his hips are shocking 17:5 or something .... not that we knew anything about hips when we got him. Like Tracey says he's a gentle giant, but has had his moments when he was younger.

Thank fully Hoogs hips are 4:4 and he has clear eyes, but I think that has more to do with his Mum's side than his dads.

He did used to get a bit snappy over chews, but we've taught him out of that and he doesn't get a bit possessive over chews since we brought Honey home.

The vet thinks he's in fab fitness, he has a creaky leg which he reckons may turn in to arthritis in later life - but we'll cram him full of cod liver oil before that happens!!

I didn't get a PM or email from you Tinsley - where did you send it?

Clare x


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

Clare, now your finally back we need Honey photo's 

Sorry for the hijack


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## Tinsley (Nov 11, 2008)

Clare said:


> Hi
> 
> Hoogs dad is Brunnental War Lord and his hips are shocking 17:5 or something .... not that we knew anything about hips when we got him. Like Tracey says he's a gentle giant, but has had his moments when he was younger.
> 
> ...


I sent it to bluefairie I think!

I've looked up the Garbank Kennels and there is quite a lot of information on there and many of their dogs have reached 14 years old which makes me a bit more optimistic! It looks like the Garbank dogs in his pedigree are good dogs, but I cant find anything on Starturn...Here it is if it is of any interest to you Clare:
http://www.garbanklislone.co.uk/

And thank you Annef for your information too! I didn't get Roo froma kennel, I bought him from a local breeder who bred one of the Brunnental's to her bitch, who is just a pet. The Garbank's are show dogs, but I cannot find anything on the other dogs either!

Thanks for pointing me in all the right places Mist, feeling a bit better now


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Gracie has a very good hip score. It is always safer to use a dog with a low score as if anything does go wrong at least you can show you have tried to breed the best possible. A friend of mine bred a 2:2 dog to a 4:4 bitch and one scored puppy was 75 total- now that is depressing! annef


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## Tinsley (Nov 11, 2008)

mist said:


> I've also sent Clare the link to this post. Until I started Chatting to Clare I'd never heard of Brunnentals, but they do appear to have a lot of puppies for sale on the puppy sales sites, do they do health tests?


The breeder told me I could visit the Brunnental kennels but it wasn't too important to me as Roo was just a pet. His Mum had clearances and on his papers it shows his dad has clear eye certificates and his hip scores. The lady who bred Roo, she owns his Mum, his half sister and his Grandma who unfortunately died earlier this year, but she just has them as pets. I think she probably bred to a Brunnental because they have the clearances and are in the same county, she bred them as pets and not show dogs or anything. I have no doubt about the lady who bred him, she is very open and even now I can send her a message quizzing her on something and she will do her best to help me out!


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## Tinsley (Nov 11, 2008)

annef said:


> Gracie has a very good hip score. It is always safer to use a dog with a low score as if anything does go wrong at least you can show you have tried to breed the best possible. A friend of mine bred a 2:2 dog to a 4:4 bitch and one scored puppy was 75 total- now that is depressing! annef


Oh no don't tell me that!! Is it a year old that they can be hip scored? I am DEFINITELY planning on getting Rupert done, in the hope that I can just reassure myself :doh: I'd not breed from him though, he has been castrated but I feel I need the peace of mind after all this!!


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

I still haven't gotten around to having Gabby's hips scored, I know I really should but the way the economy is at the minute, I'm thinking of having her spayed and wait and see what it's like when Jazz is older. I'll still have Gabby done for my piece of mind


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