# Dog Food Advisor & Grain Free/FDA Issue



## 3181wly (Nov 22, 2015)

I was just checking with Dog Food Advisor on their opinion on a brand of dog food for my GR, Doc. He has been eating Taste of the Wild, Prairie for at least the past 3 years, and he is 4.5 years old now. He is my service dog, partner, and best buddy. When the FDA thing hit the news, I read up, ask questions here, and talked to Doc's vet. I then switched Doc to PurinaProPlan Focus, or whatever it is called. 

Anyway, on Dog Food Advisor web page, they have a fairly prominent notice about the grain free issue, and they stated that many and maybe most of the primary grain-free brands do not have the suspect ingredients as a main ingredients, and they define main ingredients as being the first several items listed on the label. DFA then strongly implied that those brands might not be implicated in the problem FDA is investigating, because FDA had said that the suspect ingredients were main ingredients in the dog foods implicated in the grain-free investigation. 

I also read a number of news releases and articles where the top grain-free brands said the same thing as Dog Food Advisor, and they ridiculed the assertion that the suspect ingredients were main ingredients in their grain-free foods. I then read an article in a Veterinarian publication that quoted the FDA on the question of what FDA considers to be a main ingredient. Here is what the article reported FDA said:"What does the FDA consider a 'main ingredient'? [Answer]: "There is no hard and fast rule for what qualifies as a main ingredient. Instead, the FDA said it generally considers a main ingredient as one that is listed in a dog food’s ingredient list before the first vitamin or mineral ingredient."

So, I then looked at the ingredient list for Doc's Taste of the Wild dog food, and every single one of the suspect ingredients appear before and most of them well before the first vitamin or mineral ingredient. I didn't look at the other major brands, because I figured I had already used up my desire to read more on the subject.

I go through all of this because everyone I am bothered about what the grain-free brands or their supporters are saying. Right now, there are a lot of questions about grain-free dog foods being an unreasonable risk for DCM in our best friends, but it will probably take years for the researcher and FDA to reach any specific conclusions. For now, there is only a whole lot of circumstantial evidence, case reports, and opinions from expert dog cardiologists. 

For me and Doc, we decided to err on the side of caution by switching to dog food that is not grain-free. Doc seems to like his new food, but he told me that he loves to eat food, and he doesn't care particularly what type of food. I believe that reasonable minds can reach different conclusion on whether to dump grain-free and go elsewhere at this point in time, but I am bothered by the slight of hand being employed by the major grain-free players. And now me and Doc are going to bed, and I can't believe I spent all this time typing this out.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thank you for taking the time to type it out. 
We need for everyone to become educated about this.
If you can, you might want to pursue an echocardiogram for your dog.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Just a small fact on the rules on ingredients. Wherever you see salt or sodium in the ingredient list, all that follows cannot exceed 1.3% of the total amount of what's in the food/kibble. That is governed by AAFCO. So anything after salt other then vitamins, minerals and probiotics really don't mean much in the grand scheme.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Although it might be years before any results are released, I feel there's enough concern right now to not feed grain free foods until the study is completed and the results released. 

I have been following articles and updates about the study on the FDA's site, as well as UC Davis and NC State's Vet school sites.


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

My advice would be to not seek advice from Dog Food Advisor. It is a website created by a dentist with no background in dog nutrition. Plus, it typically ranks the foods that are actually really good (like Purina Pro Plan) badly and the foods that are actually not so great it ranks really well. You'd be much better off following the advice of a vet who actually knows something about dog nutrition than a dentist who made a website and seems to rank foods based off of what is the current fad foods.


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## SBaker (Jan 15, 2018)

IMO the question is, Why are you feeding a grain free diet? What evidence is there that GF is better or even OK for dogs? The unfortunate truth is that there is no evidence that GF is a healthy diet for dogs, and there is mounting evidence that it is actually harmful. GF is a marketing scheme targeting you, the human buying dog food, taking advantage of the current gluten/grain free hysteria in the human nutrition world. 

To stoop to the "premium food" manufacture's level, when wolves kill an animal, they eat nearly the entire carcass including the stomach, WHICH IS FULL OF GRAINS since wolves typically prey on herbivores. Also, wild wolves live on average 4-8 years. Captive wolves, who are generally fed commercial dog food diets, live ~16 years. Seeing as wolves have no natural enemies in the wild, a major factor of the prolonged lifespan is diet. 

That said, dogs are in fact not wolves. They branched off long, long ago. These days, the "wild" dogs of the world (strays, feral street dogs, etc.) are scavengers. They do little to no hunting of their own and rely almost solely on scraps from humans. So really the whole dogs=wolves argument is null and void.

I prefer to stick to brands/diets that in the very least are AAFCO approved, and that have gone through feeding trials. Diets that do not meet AAFCO standards do not even meet the MINIMUM nutritional requirements for dogs & cats (scary). Manufactures that have not put their foods through feeding trials are essentially using YOUR PET as their guinea pig, as the GF diets have done, and those dogs/guinea pigs are now dying of DCM. I do not want to end up in that boat with my beloved pet.

I am a Licensed Veterinary Technician who, like everyone else, wants to feed my pets what is best for them. I did a lot of research into the subject, attended lectures from veterinary nutritionists and technician nutrition specialists at nationwide veterinary conferences and read numerous research articles in the matter. I am by no means an expert, but I have done my due diligence and am frustrated by the abundance of false information out there (don't even get me started on raw diets) and the pets that are suffering because of it. 

If you prefer to do your own research, and I encourage you to do so, https://www.aavn.org/ and American College of Veterinary Nutrition | ACVN are good places to start. A good article outlining what we do and do not know about GF diets is here: A broken heart: Risk of heart disease in boutique or grain-free diets and exotic ingredients ? Clinical Nutrition Service at Cummings School 

Luckily even if your dog's heart was effected by the GF diet, most of the cases reported improved once they were put on a balanced diet with sufficient levels of taurine, but it might still be worth seeking and echocardiogram to be sure.

I hope this helps and sorry for the long tangent!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

3181wly said:


> ...So, I then looked at the ingredient list for Doc's Taste of the Wild dog food, and every single one of the suspect ingredients appear before and most of them well before the first vitamin or mineral ingredient. ...


Would you share the list of suspect ingredients you looked for?


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Actually there is almost no discernable difference in domestic dogs to wild dogs/wolves as far as dietary requirements. . In the grand scheme of things, dogs were domesticated within the last 5k years compared to the the 10s of thousands of years there has been dogs/wolves/coyotes. The reason for the longer life span for captive dogs/wolves is diet yes, plus health care. When a dog gets sick they usually don't survive it, plus they are the ones that will become pretty to other animals that will take advantage of that situation. So better consistent vet care, checkups will certainly increase an animals life span.

Also all dog foods that sold to the public unless a prescription food has to have an AAFCO statement on the bag


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## SBaker (Jan 15, 2018)

Veterinary Nutritionists disagree. Where are you getting your information from? Almost every raw diet on the market is not AAFCO approved and the DIY recipes online certainly are not.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

To stoop to the "premium food" manufacture's level, when wolves kill an animal, they eat nearly the entire carcass including the stomach, WHICH IS FULL OF GRAINS since wolves typically prey on herbivores. 


Biologists who have studied wolves for decades would firmly disagree. 

Myths About Raw: Do wolves eat stomach contents of prey?


https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/feed-your-dog-like-a-wolf/

We all should consider doing our own research, educate ourselves, and perhaps question what we are told.


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## SBaker (Jan 15, 2018)

I have gotten my information straight from the mouths of veterinary nutritionists and done plenty of research in my own from credible sources, such as the ones I mentioned above, or university sites that end in .edu. I would not expect to find unbiased, educated information from rawfed.com. Both the articles you cited mention wolves eating the stomach contents of small animals and feeding on grass, acorns, etc of their own accord - grains. So no, they do not firmly disagree.

The facts are:
- There is zero evidence that GF diets are appropriate or healthy for pets. There is mounting evidence that they are in fact harmful. See --> Grain-Free Diets ? Big on marketing, Small on truth ? Clinical Nutrition Service at Cummings School
- There is also zero evidence that raw diets are superior, appropriate or safe for pets. Where as here has been numerous research findings that raw food diets, both commercially available and DIY, contain pathogens and they have made people and pets sick. Some people and pets have even died. This is why the FDA, and AVMA and the ACVN warn against them. Most of the raw diets tested, both commercial and DIY, were also not nutrient balanced. -->Raw Diets: A Healthy Choice or a Raw Deal? ? Clinical Nutrition Service at Cummings School
This may change as we learn more about and and perfect the technique of raw food, but we are not there yet and I for one will not risk my family and pets health until we are.

Also, when I say "evidence", I mean peer reviewed, scientific research. Not testimonials or theories on the internet, no matter how sound they seem. I'm glad your articles cites biologists, but they still have not received as much education as a veterinarian or especially a veterinary nutritionist, about the nutritional needs of DOGS. I will say it again, dogs are not wolves. I found this site referenced on aavn.org: https://www.petfoodindustry.com/art...ly-appropriate-pet-foods-not-based-in-science

Nutrition is hard. We all want what is best for our pets and there is a lot of information out there, both good and bad, and a lot of strong feelings on both sides. There is no perfect diet, they all have their pros and cons and no diet is ideal for every dog. All I can suggest is that you look for science-backed research from qualified individuals in the field. Theories may sound appealing but they are just that - theories.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

We are talking about commercially prepared foods, being kibble or raw, have an AAFCO statement. DIY recipes aren't something governed nor what anyone was talking about. I'm not arguing with you, just trying to help you but you are talking about one thing then making an argument including different subjects. I agree that for now grain free foods are better off avoided until all is known about the low taurine related DCM. If you have to feed something that is being questioned that you need to feed based on allergies or health related issues like low carb diets for diabetic dogs then just have your dogs taurine levels check regularly. 



Actually my knowledge of nutrition has come from all major food companies that I personally visited (Purina, Nutro, Iams/Eukanuba and Hills) R and D veterinarian nutritionists plus the Vet Nutritionists of Natura (bought by Proctor&Gamble at a later date) Wellness, and a few schools including U of Penn and Cornell, in addition to those, my own 15 years of self education.


Also the fact that you can try and drop your knowledge background and then try to say that there is no evidence that raw food isn't superior makes me question your knowledge background. Raw food by definition is superior to cooked food as you do not destroy the original nutrients. This fact also means you have to add in synthetic vitamins and minerals. This is a known fact that the high majority of synthetic vitamins and minerals are unabsorbed and the body doesn't utilize, the reason why there is high testing for excesses and deficiencies in processed dog foods (kibble or canned). This is before you're talking about the dog food industries process for kibble (the extrusion process). This process cooks dog food and such a insanely high temperature and pressure it destroys more then double of the nutrients then that of the way we cook our own food.


Now lets talk about some raw food. They do not add vitamins and minerals to a raw food because the body takes what it needs and discards the rest. It is very hard to create excesses with raw food. The body is forced to absorb synthetic vitamins and minerals. For example, excess vitamin A in excess is toxic to dogs. But a raw carrot, the body takes the beta carotene and creates the vitamin A that it needs and really not any more then that. You still need to balance the food as much as you can and include the correct calcium and phosphorus level and also make sure you include enough diverse ingredients to make available the complete nutrients. Here is another example. Raw food is HEALTHIER for a dogs kidney's then kibble. Dry kibble is rarely higher then 10% moisture. That means that when a dog eats kibble and then drinks water after the kibble will absorb the water and pulls it though the the colon. A diet higher in moisture like a raw diet (usually around 60-70% moisture) allows almost all the moisture (from food or drinking) to pass through the kidney's and therefore flush the kidney's much better. This also allows the dog not to have to drink as much and urinates just as often and sometimes a little more often. 



As far as safety, the raw foods are also fine for dogs. It is very hard for dogs to get things like salmonella. Understanding how the dogs system works is key in understanding this. People have food in their stomach for 45min maybe an hour and then it moves into a very large digestive tract. Dogs on the other hand have food sitting in their stomach, in an acid bath for up to 4-5 hours and in comparison has a very short digestive track hence the dogs ability to destroy things like salmonella and E.Coli. Recalls are generally for the health risk of small kids and elderly people or people with compromised immune systems. If you just use the same handling guidelines as ew do when handling raw chicken and such before we cook it there is no issues for people either.



So it is hard to understand how someone with extensive food and nutrition knowledge would say that raw food isn't superior then insanely heat and pressure destroyed processed kibble.


Sorry for such a lengthy post but I felt I needed to clarify a few things.


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

Taking the advise from Dog Food Advisor is not a good idea. He is a dentist so how in the world would he have any knowledgeable information about dog nutrition and healthy diets.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

Never put any stock in anything you read on the dog food advisor web site. That site was put together by a dentist, who has absolutely no background or education in animal nutrition or veterinary science. All of the "information" on there is solely his own opinion and there is no science behind any of it. Frankly, pretty much everything on there is pure garbage and that site should have been taken down years ago. Because you have been feeding grain-free for several years, I would err on the side of caution and get your pup's taurine level checked. It was definitely a smart move switching to Pro Plan. It is an excellent brand that has been around for decades and has extensive scientific research behind it with proven results. Our dogs have always done extremely well on it.


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## SBaker (Jan 15, 2018)

Maggie'sVoice I stand by what I say. Read the pages I tagged. How can you say raw foods are perfectly safe when the FDA has issued a warning against them because of people and dogs dying from them? The only studies that have been done with raw food are about digestibility, but that is only a one aspect to total nutrition and no study has found that dogs fed raw foods were healthier, lived longer, etc. There are also certain nutrient that are only released when food is cooked.

Kibble isn't perfect either. But for now it is safer. 

I know I'm not going to change everyone's mind. Some people are hard set in their ways and what I'm saying doesn't fit into their belief system so it will get throw out, but I'm trying to give out science backed information from the most credible sources so people can educate themselves.


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## CoveredInDogFur (Sep 17, 2018)

Obviously anything you feed your pet comes with risks. Yes, raw diets have pathogens in them. But many canned and dry foods have been recalled for containing pathogens or other dangerous ingredients as well. I’m saying this as someone who feeds kibble and wet food. 

I’m not against any style of feeding. (Well, there is one type but I don’t think I should get into that here.) Every person should do what is best for their dog and their lifestyle, and they should research and consider risks no matter what they feed. 

Anyway, I also agree that Dog Food Advisor shouldn’t be considered as a good source for deciding the quality of food. It’s a great database for product recalls, and it provides good analysis of ingredients. But the actual reviews and ratings aren’t really reliable.


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## daisy1234 (Jun 17, 2018)

Oh boy! I know some of you really don't like the dog food advisor. He is more than "a dentist"

Welcome! My name is Mike Sagman — and I love dogs.
Mike Sagman and Bailey
Mike and Bailey

And if you love your dog as much as I love mine, you’re probably concerned about how to find a safe and healthy food to nourish her.
What’s more, you’d probably like to know a little about me and how my website can help you.

I’m a graduate of the Medical College of Virginia with a doctorate in dental surgery.

My undergraduate studies include a major in chemistry and a minor in biology.

In addition to my dental school studies in human nutrition, I’ve also cultivated a personal passion for canine nutrition, too.

Our current team includes two dedicated research assistants, an experienced social media admin as well as one extraordinarily knowledgeable (and generous) veterinarian.

I see someone who has a passion for dog nutrition and wants to help educate us all. Is he the only source of info. Of course not, but I think a lot of us really want to feed our dogs the best and seek out as much info as we can. Bad mouthing or discrediting others is not the way to go about it. I hesitated to jump into this debate for that very same reason. I brought up food a bit ago and it was not pleasant. As a new person to this forum I was shocked at how some on here are not very nice when something is brought up that they don't agree with. I belong to a Beagle forum and am involved in a walking/exercise challenge forum as well. Both of those sites people are kind and help each other out when issues come up. No one attacks others or makes them feel bad if they ask help with anything. I feel that on this site. I may leave because of this. Maybe it's how you all like it, just a site with like minded people. That's not for me but if you take anything away from reading my post, maybe it should be to have an open mind. As for the original post. I have to feed my Beagle gain free due to allergies. The studies were for bigger dogs with heart issues. It's a balancing act. Seek out and do what is best for you and your dog.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Because of a critically low taurine level, I switched my dog to a grain inclusive food as advised by the cardiologist. Just had a repeat blood test drawn yesterday. I'm hoping the food has made a big difference.
He had been eating grain free all of his six and a half years. I'll be following here, thanks all .


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Sbaker... It isn't even close the number of dogs that have been made sick or died from kibble as compared to raw food. Plus when dogs get sick from kibble, it's in the thousands at a time usually. If it's from raw food, it's usually isolated cases.

But let me clarify something. I'm not as big of an advocate for making your own raw diet and certainly not from an internet recipe. I'm taking about commercially made food like nature's variety, bravo and natures own... Places like that, that will do testing to make sure they haven't left anything out nutrient wise.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

daisy1234 said:


> Oh boy! I know some of you really don't like the dog food advisor. He is more than "a dentist"
> 
> Welcome! My name is Mike Sagman — and I love dogs.
> Mike Sagman and Bailey
> ...


RE: the bolded part of your post -- some areas of the internet run a little more dogmatic than others (lol at the accidental pun). Personally, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing when it's evidence based. We should not have an open mind about all things, just like there is no "open mindedness" about what does and does not constitute a reputable Golden Retriever breeder. It's a hard line, and it's a hard line for a reason (lives are at stake). 

I'll use your beagle as an example, though I am absolutely not targeting your post in any way and take no issue with your choices for your beagle because I'm not your vet! 

Even in your situation with your beagle, that's ultimately a decision for a veterinary professional to weigh the risk of grain free vs the risk of allergies (and what those allergies are really attributed to). Except most people don't say "have a chat with your vet", people say "try grain free/raw/etc." even though at no point will they ever put hands or eyes on that dog or that dog's medical history. There is even increasing encouragement to actively defy veterinary recommendations in many "animal" social spheres. 

Every single animal of every single owner who reads a post online is at risk of being handled in accordance to the information found there, which is why we have an _extreme_ responsibility to be absolutely excellent stewards of the information we share. In general, the most responsible stewardship is to only share information which is supported by veterinary medicine and has little to no risk. Basically -- if the stupidest person online could take your information the stupidest way possible, and an animal would be at risk, it's better to not say anything at all unless you are a part of a care team monitoring that animal and that situation. Sometimes we shouldn't say anything. 

For example, I absolutely do not discuss NILIF anymore online because enough people have taken it to dangerous extremes (withholding water, severe emotional neglect, etc). Is it a valid training practice? Sure! Is it responsible for me to discuss online if I am not going to commit to monitoring how it's being implemented over a long period of time? Nooooope. 

On the topic of food, the Big Dog Food brands most recommended here are generally supported by veterinary medicine, generally have ample feed trials behind them, are well monitored and traced, and have a low risk for user error, will not kill or maim an immunocompromised animal or person, will not cause debilitating illness to a child in the home, etc. And now, it seems they are a fair avenue for avoiding taurine/DCM issues. Evidence suggests that it is a less dangerous recommendation, and so it's only one I feel comfortable discussing with the greater public, even if there is more nuance to my personal opinion. 

We should be consistently aware that people are stumbling onto this forum googling "DUH!" things like "my dog has been throwing up with blood in his vomit for 3 days, should i go to the vet?" and our words need to be absolutely air-tight SAFE for individuals like that to be reading. So yeah, there's some risk in having open minded discussion there, for sure. We need to take ourselves seriously when we share information. 

I hope you'll stay, though. The conflict is easy to avoid and stays mostly in food discussions. Occasionally medical and training discussions as well, but that's rare.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

I have gotten my information straight from the mouths of veterinary nutritionists and done plenty of research in my own from credible sources, such as the ones I mentioned above, or university sites that end in .edu. I would not expect to find unbiased, educated information from rawfed.com. Both the articles you cited mention wolves eating the stomach contents of small animals and feeding on grass, acorns, etc of their own accord - grains. So no, they do not firmly disagree.

Fair enough, but it also says :"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site." (pg.123, emphasis added)
"To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system." (pg.124, emphasis added).
Quoted from the book: Wolves: Behavior, Ecology and Conservation by L. David Mech, 

Your statement is misleading: To stoop to the "premium food" manufacture's level, when wolves kill an animal, they eat nearly the entire carcass including the stomach, WHICH IS FULL OF GRAINS since wolves typically prey on herbivores. Also, wild wolves live on average 4-8 years. Captive wolves, who are generally fed commercial dog food diets, live ~16 years. Seeing as wolves have no natural enemies in the wild, a major factor of the prolonged lifespan is diet. 

suggests that they do eat the stomach contents of their large wild prey, who's diet consists mainly of grains, which is not true on either count. Though wild wolves are not prey animals themselves they do succumb to disease, starvation, injury, and the stresses of hunting and being hunted by man at a fairly high rate- it only makes sense that a captive wolf who doesn't have to hunt, is fed regularly, and receives vet care, would live on average a longer life span. Captive wolves fed a species specific, appropriate wolf diet would not be fed dog food. 

I don't disagree that a dog's dietary needs differ somewhat from that of wolves in the wild, aside from their need for animal protein but question whether the amount of carbohydrates found in most dog foods (a common source being grains), is necessary or healthy long term for dogs. Many dogs suffer with weight issues leading to health issues and sometimes shorter lives, many dog owner struggle to keep their dog's weight in check - a personal experience - I feed my dogs a commercial diet, a 'premium diet' - when the formula was changed and it became a diet with more meat ingredients and less than 25% carbohydrates, my dogs, all four of them, lost some weight, became leaner, even though they were fed the same amount, and there lifestyle remained the same. Interestingly also, one of my dogs who had frequent digestive issues, no longer has those problems, after the change in formula. 

We are faced with a dizzying array of choice in what to feed our dogs, faced with 'feed this, don't feed that' - from every direction - so many questions with not enough definitive answers.


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## SBaker (Jan 15, 2018)

Maggie'sVoice, it's not fair to say, 'way more dogs have died of dry food than raw' because exponentially more dogs eat dry kibble than raw. You have to look at the _percentage_ of dog the get sick from eating kibble vs. eating raw, but I think you're smart enough to know that. As I've said, no food is perfect and dry foods have had their issues too, but the _percent_ of dogs that eat kibble that have gotten sick is still much, much lower than the percent of dogs that eat raw and have gotten sick. Even commercial raw diets have had outbreaks and deaths. The FDA agrees. https://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/ResourcesforYou/AnimalHealthLiteracy/ucm368730.htm

You all can nit-pick my comments all you want. I've given you the opportunity to educate yourselves and provided scientific, credible information. If you don't want to look at it that's your choice. I'm not going to argue with you any longer. 

I know we are all coming from a place of wanting to do what's best for our pets. I respect that and the passion we all have for this cause. Your dogs are lucky to have you as their advocates.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Sbaker... LOL nice passive-aggressive post you put there. "Opportunity to educate yourself"? We can agree to disagree. The number of dogs sick by kibble to raw and their percentages are still not in favor of Kibble. This is based on stats from Hill's research that I've seen first hand in their Topeka Kansas R&D lab which they have K-State University do 90% of their testing and studies. There are other companies as well that have this info I have seen and talked to teir vets about.



I'm just fine with the info I have learned and gotten from about 85% of the top food companies own vet nutritionists. The fears you've been posting is 100% in line with regular vets who tell people to that raw is bad for dogs and shouldn't be eating it. Those vets unless taken upon themselves, only get roughly 2 credit hours of nutrition in vet school and it's not even based on dogs and cats but Farm animals like pigs and cows. Again I will say, understanding a dogs system and how it works will explain to you what it is you are ignoring and that is that dogs systems are designed to eat carrion (dead and rotting flesh of an animal). Their system kills the bacteria a large majority of the time and their GI tract is so short food it's in there long enough to regrow much bacteria. So it's not impossible for dogs to get sick from raw food/meats, just not very likely. Most of the issues that dogs face eating raw foods is people making up their own or getting it from crazy people in the net and it's not a balanced meal (excesses and/or deficiencies). 



Anyway, I'm not trying to change your mind on what you feel comfortable with, just putting info out there for people that need it. There is no right or wrong way to feed, that's the point. I just felt the need to correct that Raw isn't less safe to feed then kibble if you handle it properly like you would your own food and it's certainly not less superior like you mentioned in an earlier post.


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## lsmith0441 (Oct 30, 2018)

So I can't talk to my vet because my vet is old school and recommends Purina One and Science Diet. I feed Earthborn Holistic Venture Rabbit meal and Pumpkin. It has added taurine, is this enough? If not, what are you all feeding? I do feed grain free, but I'm not sure I need to. I'm so confused.


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

lsmith0441 said:


> So I can't talk to my vet because my vet is old school and recommends Purina One and Science Diet. I feed Earthborn Holistic Venture Rabbit meal and Pumpkin. It has added taurine, is this enough? If not, what are you all feeding? I do feed grain free, but I'm not sure I need to. I'm so confused.


Purina One and Science Diet are both really good foods; Purina Pro Plan is even better than Purina One. Not sure where people come up with the idea that they are bad foods. Your vet is usually the best source for figuring out what to feed. I know a lot of people think they push Science Diet because they make a profit off of it, so maybe that's where the low opinion of these foods comes from? Honestly, most vets really do care about your pets and want what is best for them; most vets are in it because they love animals and not for the money. I've fed Purina to my dogs and we had a golden live to 15 1/2 yrs and a Lab/GSD live to 14 yrs on it. Current golden is 7 and in exceptionally good health. I think you'll find a lot of folks on this forum are very happy with Purina Pro Plan. I've never heard of Earthborn so I can't speak to that. Just be very cautious of feeding boutique or faddish foods. Brands like Purina and Science Diet have been around a long time and have been tested and proven.


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## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

I have two Golden Retrievers and I feed them dry food, a 50/50 mix of Fromm Classic and Canidae All Life Stages. They seem to do well on it, should I be worried? Do I need to test for Taurine deficiency? Feeding dogs has turned into a nightmare. Years ago, in the 70’s, I had a couple little mutts that ate any old cheap dog food. I think mostly something called mealtime with round kibble and little bone shaped kibble. But they ate other random stuff like kibbles and bits and sometimes that semi soft stuff that looked like ground beef/playdough. They lived to be 15&1/2 and 17&1/2. Then I got into Golden retrievers and started freaking out about dog food, allergies, etc. Seems the real trouble started with sourcing crap from China. A bunch of dogs dying from food ingredients from China. So what should I feed my goldens now? Is what I’m feeding safe? In the past I did do the grain free, and some raw, some home cooked. The most trouble I had was with raw, causing diarrhea sometimes. And difficult to feed when traveling. So I’m back to dry kibble. No diarrhea and easy to store and feed. They seem healthy.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

What you're feeding should be fine relating to eh low taurine and DCM . I am just not a big fan of mixing different foods like that as you get different level of vitamins and minerals and can cause imbalances long term. Also could get an improper skin and coat as each may try to balance the skin/coat differently. I think you always get the best overall health feeding one type of food and just change it up every year or maybe 18 months


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## DogOwner (Jul 30, 2015)

I have joined both of Dr. J. Stern's (UC Davis Vet) facebook groups; a general one and a Golden Retriever one. Dr. Stern feeds his golden retriever Royal Canin for Golden Retrievers. Guess what? Everyone should feed their dogs RC because RC has a nutritionist on its staff full time. LOL! Rice is the 1st ingredient, chicken by products is the 2nd ingredient. I called RC and spoke to a Customer Service Rep and her supervisor. I asked what consists of Chicken By Products and they assured me feathers, feet and road kill are not included. I also asked both where the chicken by products are sourced. They both would repeat "We don't have that level of detail". I asked if their supplier was the supplier that was fined recently (Think Blue Buffalo)... "No, we don't use that supplier". I asked if their Chicken By Products were sourced from China. "Absolutely Not". I continued to ask where their chicken by products came from. Finally, I heard "Europe". I asked for some countries were their chicken by products came from "France and New Zealand". Someone needs a geography lesson... I thought. 

When I called TOTW... I was told that extra taurine has been added to their grain free formulas since July but the packaging hasn't been updated yet as they are working on it. 

Heck.. I found what I wrote on the Non Dr. Stern Facebook Group about DCM. Here it is.....

"Diamond makes TOTW and Nature's Domain (both grain free) as well. I was told that all dog foods that Diamond produces have added taurine: 1,000mg per kilogram of food and that they are working on updating the ingredients list on their packaging. The lamb comes from New Zealand. Chicken and Turkey come from the USA. Salmon comes from Norway and Chile. The Kirkland Chicken, Rice & Vegetable Formula states that it uses Fresh Chicken.

Now, I am on the phone with Royal Canin. I was told that Chicken By Products are Intestines, Heart, Liver & Lungs. No feathers, no feet. When I asked where the chicken by products are sourced, the Customer Service Rep replied "We don't have that level of detail". When I asked if she could list some of the countries where the chicken by products are sourced, I heard "We don't have that level of detail" I asked to speak to her supervisor.

The supervisor was very nice and polite and is even part of Dr. Stern's Groups but doesn't post. Again, I received the standard "We Don't Have That Level of Detail". I asked if there is a list of countries where the chicken by products have been sourced in the past? I got the same "We Don't Have That Level of Detail". I did get "We try to get our chicken by products as close to our plant as possible". When I asked if they get their chicken by products from China, She responded "No". She did mention from places like Europe. What countries I asked. She responded France and New Zealand. LOL! So much for geography.

About the RC ingredient list, the supervisor told me rice is heavier than chicken by product which is why it is listed first. When discussing the 2nd dog food ingredients, she said that bones of the chicken are included which is why chicken is listed first. I even said the chicken meal is listed as 2nd before the rice which is 3rd in the 2nd dog food (kirkland). I never really got an answer.

Whatever dog food you choose, I think it is important to supplement whether it be food (sardines, eggs, chicken liver, etc) or taurine or both if necessary."

I feed Nature's Domain Salmon to both of my dogs. 1 GR and 1 Shorkie. I even buy the Nature's Domain Salmon for Small Dogs. So I purchased the Kirkland Chicken, Rice and Vegetables. I think they are scratching more. The little one has thrown up a few times already. Never did before. I have been supplementing with Sardines, Eggs, Chicken, Salmon plus their usually fresh vegetables. I add Alaskan Salmon Oil, Fish Oil... all kinds of oil. I also put plain yogurt in a hollow red barn white dog bone and freeze them. Yogurt, cottage cheese, milk provide taurine. I have an Unopened bag of Nature's Domain Salmon (Blue) and the Little Dog Version (Pink). I am stressing over opening the Grain Free Bags. It as if these are my drugs and I am trying to kick the habit. 

My husband thinks all of this is foolish because the dogs were doing fine on the Nature's Domain Grain Free Salmon and Peas. I tried to explain that if the suspect ingredients are in the top five ingredients... they are not getting sufficient taurine. He then said... just add the high taurine toppers and don't make yourself crazy over this. 

I love reading the Food Advisor's Reviews. 

Don't question anything in Dr. Stern's DCM groups. His minions will kick you out and block you. Unless you follow the leader... you will be shunned. 

One of my favorite posts that highlight the nonsense in the Dr. Stern group is this.

A woman has a GR and feed the dog grain free. She switched to a grain based diet. I believe RC for GR and the dog began scratching and having hot spots. The dog owner stated that she wanted to go back to the old grain free dog food that she was feeding and never had a problem. One of the admins told her that she was taking a chance on her dog's health. The woman responded that she is more concerned with the quality of life of her dog. I agree with the dog owner 110%.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

All lamb and venison for dog foods come from New Zealand as it's the only place there is no hoof and mouth disease. Also the reason it is more expensive. If otherwise stated like it comes from the USA or other countries they are lying cause people want USA sourced products or if not lying That isn't what you would want to by your dog.


With chicken by-products that isn't coming from overseas, but it would be local. Too expensive to import chicken. But there are 3 grades of chicken by-products. Grade 3 CAN include things like feathers and feet, grade 2 chicken meat/organ meat/bones and grade 1 is usually just the meat and organ meat (heart, lungs, liver and such) Grade 3 is what you see in Ol' Roy, Pedigree and Dog Chow among other grocery/feed store brands. Grade 1 is what you see in premium lines of food like Pro Plan, Eukanuba, Nurto, Royal Canin etc. Also, Chicken Meal is technically a chick by-product by definition as anything that is altered in anyway from it's original form is a by-product and since you remove the water from the chicken to make it a meal, it's actually a by-product (large majority don't even know this).


Also, DogOwner... What you give dog "I have been supplementing with Sardines, Eggs, Chicken, Salmon plus their usually fresh vegetables. I add Alaskan Salmon Oil, Fish Oil... all kinds of oil." can contribute to a dogs itching. The oils added can easily be imbalancing the Omega 6 and 3 ratios causing a dryer skin.


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## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

I wanted to add to this topic but forgive me if it has already been mentioned. I too am part of the Dr. Stern facebook group regarding goldens and DCM. I read on his FB group that food manufacturers adding taurine is not effective at preventing taurine deficiency. It isn't as simple as that and more to do with balancing of other amino acids as well. Also, the taurine that is added will not be absorbed if there are legumes in the food bc legumes are said to block taurine absorption. Dr. Becker recommends giving sardines to your dog once weekly to prevent taurine deficiency. There are no clear easy answers out there yet, unfortunately. What I have learned from Dr Stern's FB site is that the dog should be tested for taurine deficiency before making dietary changes bc you will not know if the dog has DCM if tested after dietary change due to a false negative. However, an echocardiogram is the most accurate tool to identify DCM. I have suspected my beloved Callie may have had diet-related DCM that caused her sudden passing. I will never know for sure, but it certainly can answer as to why she suddenly passed 3 weeks post ACL surgery. She had been healthy her entire life, no symptoms. DCM can be without symptoms. The FB site has a file of various foods with stats that can be very helpful. My holistic pet food store owner recommends feeding grain free still but regardless of grain or no grain, to choose a food that is 40% or less of carbohydrate. The formula for figuring this is to total the % for protein, fat, moisture, and ash ( if ash not listed assume it is 8%). The subtract this total amount from 100% and the result is the carb content, which should be 40% or less.


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## SBaker (Jan 15, 2018)

I ran across another good article this morning about the GF/DCM situation that looks like it answers a lot of the questions posted here, feel free to check it out!

https://pawcurious.com/2018/09/grai...4jH9CJWaz6E2tnd-soAMuwpeDNaMGNNWOJ4XXl1QOdInI


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## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

Thank you for posting this link. Very good info. I am currently dogless until I bring another golden into my life. It makes me nervous to think about what food i will feed with all this conflicting info. I have always fed holistic brands grain free but am now rethinking this. But for what its worth, the owner of the boutique pet store whom I thoroughly trust believes raw is best. If not feeding raw, she recommends the following brands: Farmina grain free, OPen Farm grain free, and Rawbble grain free. Good luck to all of you trying to navigate all of this.


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