# Any behavior gurus out there? Please watch my video



## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

All - I tried to video a common occurrence that happens at least a few times a week to daily. My dog will randomly start "attacking" me, by biting at my legs, biting at my hands and arms, growling, showing teeth, etc. He has left more bruises and torn more clothes than I care to remember. He's broke the skin, but I've never required stitches. Lately, I feel like his behavior is getting more aggressive and his bites harder. 

He's 11 months old and has always been very mouthy. He's had a habit of jumping and biting at me while on leash since he was 4 -5 months old. He's now dog aggressive. He was diagnosed as hypothyroid a few weeks ago and has been on thyroxine. We are going to a vet behaviorist in a few weeks. I will definitely show her this video among others. 

95 - 99% of the time, he's not aggressive. However, he is very anxious, barks a lot, etc. There are times when he is cuddly, but will typically not lay next to me. He likes to come up on the sofa half way (front paw on the sofa and back legs on the ground) and rest his head on me. 

Sorry for my yelps in the video, but his bites really hurt and I'm not sure how I should respond to him. Nothing I have ever done has made any difference. Getting up and walking away, ignoring him, yelling (I KNOW THIS IS NOT PREFERRED, but I've lost my cool a few times after dealing with this for 7 months), re-directing (which is impossible).

Please take a look at the video and let me know what you see. I was simply sitting on my sofa watching TV and he comes up and starts biting me for no reason. Nothing happened that I can tell. He tends to do this same thing every time I take him outside to go potty or go for walks once we are outside and at the bottom of the stairway. It happens in front of other people and in the absence of anything and anyone.

http://youtu.be/I-5Px5xLpnk


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## dezymond (May 3, 2012)

Sounds like he's been quite the handful. 

Just wondering, but how much exercise are you providing him each day? At 11mo old, he's at his peak energy level just about every day and he needs alot of exercise to have him calm throughout the day. 

Also I see you mentioned some behaviors at 4-5mo, may I ask what was done at the time to address these behaviors? Were you able to see a trainer or behaviorist to try and get this behavior resolved? You also mention he's dog aggressive, any reason for that? Was he attacked as a puppy or anything like that?

Sorry for all the questions and I'm not doing it to interrogate you, I just want you to share as much information as possible with us so we can try and help. Though I think you seeing a behaviorist is your best option and probably the best advice you can get as they would be a qualified professional. 

Stay strong and don't give up. He's still a puppy after all. And any time you need to vent please don't be afraid to do so.


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

I dont see aggression but more so, a bored golden who is looking for attention and using his mouth, to do so.
How much exercice does he get, per day and what is a typical day, for him?.
I would start usin the NILIF aka make him work, for everything he gets, attention included.


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

He gets at least 60 minutes of leash walking per day and play dates with dog friends at least 5 times per week. He comes to work with me and is rarely alone. He tends to act this way in certain locations and at certain times of the day. This occurs no matter if he's been exercised or not. Had a play date or not. 

I've seen a behaviorist for the jumping and biting and she emphasized not allowing him to get above his threshold but wasn't able to help me identify his trigger. We also worked on relaxation protocol. We've been in obedience training since he was 8 weeks old and has never had a negative interaction with another dog until he started a fight at the off leash park one day a couple of months ago. Obviously he has not gone back. 

We've been to vets and spent $1000s to see if any of the behaviors are health related where he was diagnosed as hypothyroid. He's now on meds. We are going to a dvm Behaviorist next month as it has been a long wait. We are also in training for behavior adjustment training (bat) for his dog reactivity.

I've seen a holistic vet and he's received acupuncture and received some herbs.

I'm transitioning him off kibble to a raw diet. 

I feel like I've done everything in my power to address his behavior issues and it continues.


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

Just wanted to let you know that you don't have to transition onto raw, you just begin! Also wasn't Lloyd the pup who had all the trouble with the aggressive boxers at your work. Not trying to undermine what you have said above but I thought it was important information at the time and I think the behaviour experts should know. Really hoping that you can find some answers for this pup.


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## Goldylover2 (May 1, 2014)

Here are some suggestions. Go to the hardware store and buy 20 feet of nylon rope. Six to eight feet of the rope will be his inside leash. When he acts up, like in the video. Correct him by jerking the rope quickly. Just say NO and that's it. Try to be as calm as possible. The rest of the rope will be for outside in your yard for training purposes. With the rope attached to your dog, walk in one direction then tour around and walk into the other direction. Your goal is to have him follow you when you make that 180 degree turn. Don't pull on the rope. Let him come to the end of the rope himself. Keep going back and forth. He'll catch on slowly and start to follow you. Your trying to instill that your the leader. Our trainer did this with our 7 month old golden the first hour of our free training. We were amazed how he took control of our pup at the time. The trainer kept our pup for a week first, then he trained us. Boy did we need a lot of training. We went back each weekend for seven weeks. A shock collar is an option. I was against it at first but decided to get one. Our golden Caleb is 18 months old now and he wears his prong and shock collar. He's improving and listening to commands when off leash better each day. Our last golden Ginger and our current golden Caleb were at different ends of the spectrum as a pup. Ginger was as sweet as can be and not mouthy. This little guy was a nightmare. We did not enjoy him as a puppy. Hell started at around four months old. I thought it would just pass and he would turn into our beloved ginger. Boy was I wrong. We dealt with all the issues up until he was seven months old. Our trainer saved the day and possibly saved our dog.


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## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

I'm so glad you have video to share! I've been waiting to see this for a long time! Before I make other comments, a few questions.
- Is this a normal example of the behavior or is this more/less intense? More or less clothes biting? Does he ususally shift from legs to arms?
- Are you surprised that he did it in this setting or is this not unexpected?
- How would you rate/evaluate his body language during this example?


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

SwimDog said:


> I'm so glad you have video to share! I've been waiting to see this for a long time! Before I make other comments, a few questions.
> - Is this a normal example of the behavior or is this more/less intense? More or less clothes biting? Does he ususally shift from legs to arms?
> - Are you surprised that he did it in this setting or is this not unexpected?
> - How would you rate/evaluate his body language during this example?


Thanks for the questions. I would say this is normal. The behavior started maybe 20-30 seconds before I began taping so you didn't see the whole thing, but it typically lasts about a minute or so. He will start by jumping and nipping at my arms. He typically then goes to my butt (if I'm standing) and then legs. He has put holes in a lot of my clothes, so I wouldn't say it is abnormal for that to happen. However, I think he is going for my legs and arms and the clothes since he will do it even if I have bare arms and legs. So, yes, it does shift from arms to butt to legs and back to arms. I am not surprised he did it in this setting since he's been doing it now a couple of months around 8 - 9 pm in the evening. He also does this outside while on leash, most commonly immediately after we get to the bottom of our stairs to go potty or start a walk.

If I didn't listen to the sound and just paid attention to the body language by watching the video, I too may interpret this is a pup who wants to play. However, I know from experience that his bites are HARD and me trying to get him to play tug or chase a ball don't work. He's only interested in biting me, not playing. Of course, he could think he is playing, but he doesn't even play with his dog friends this way. He is mouthy with them, but does not growl and bark and lunge quite like he does with me. So, that is the main reason I do see this as some form of aggression. 

I'd love to know your thoughts. The behavior seems to be escalating. For a while he would do this to me just indoors and only nip and pull on the leash. Now he jumps and bites and nips and bites at me outside nearly every time we go out.


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## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

To me, it looks like it may have initially started (as in, months ago) as inappropriate play/attention seeking and somehow (accidentally) it was shaped/reinforced into what it is today. We don't see this as much as we did 5-10 years ago and my first dog had a variation of this problem - I feel your pain! Often when families try extinction (no response) the dog increases in intensity - and then the dog does get a response, we can't help it, it hurts when they put teeth on us or jump up, and so the dog has learned to engage harder and harder - and if something doesn't work - try even harder than ever before!

It does not seem to be 'aggression' - he is not trying to make you go away/increase his personal space. He is seeming to want to engage - I especially think that because of the action-pause sequence that is repeated a few times where he does something and then stops to see what you do. 

I know you have done many different training things and you have more coming up with the vet behaviorist, etc. With his reactivity, changing behaviors, etc - def keep the vet appt and he does sound like a dog who would benefit from antianxiety meds to improve his quality of life and yours. 

Have you read through Susan Garrett's "Ruff Love" booklet and implemented it? Lloyd seems like he really needs us to be on top of his management and not give him a chance to do these things. Her booklet does a good job of outlining the management parts and utilizing the rewards in daily life/naturally occurring/creating more rewards. The booklet is outdated in some ways but it's the clearest outline of management that I have seen. Example for Lloyd: If you know he does this in the evenings, then 20 min before the usual time, give him a frozen stuffed kong or tether him on the other side of the room or crate him next to you or put him on a down stay. Don't have him loose if he's likely to do this.

It would also help Lloyd if he learned better ways to ask for attention so that he can ask you - but in a much nicer way. We need to flip his attention seeking around to more appropriate ways. 

So - the behavior itself is not concerning itself. If you were to call me, I would likely have you call a vet behaviorist because of the reactivity/changing reactivity. I would do an appt today (or tomorrow) for immediate management/making a plan so that you have things to do until you have the vet appt. I would be concerned about your feelings about the behavior and the stress it is causing you. I would be concerned about the intensity increasing and the frequency at which it occurs.


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

Thank you all for your responses. I will do everything in my power to change my feelings about these things because I do completely realize that they are not helping either of us. I do have "ruff love" and get the concept completely. However, I have not yet tried to put it in motion here yet. 

I'm glad those of you who watched don't see this as aggression! It gives me a great deal of hope that I'm not going as uphill as I originally thought. 

I'd love your thoughts on how I can teach him to ask for attention in a nicer way. Do you have any tips I could try?

I get a laugh out of thinking that he needs to ask for attention as I feel like all I do is give him attention. That is when I'm not on this forum looking for advice about him!  

Today was a much better day as we went for a 45 minute walk just now and saw several dogs big and small. We stayed on the opposite side of the street, but he didn't go nutty barking and lunging. He would stop to look at them but would keep walking when I called him. I was so proud! He also hasn't jumped or bit me at all today. I've tried to keep my attitude in check and expect good things from him.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

I'll be following your story as well. When I watched your video, all I saw was attention seeking behavior. I'm not an expert as you know. I'm going to start Charlie on his medicine that I discussed in my thread. I'll try to keep that updated so you can see the progress. Seeing the behaviorist is definitely the way to go. You're doing all the right things.

Hang in there.


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

Wow. There's nothing like a video, if we can't be there, to really see the dynamic. I agree that it's not aggression in the bad, scary sense. But it's sort of demanding, bullying behavior which definitely needs to be nipped (no pun intended) asap so as not to escalate any more.

Breaking this evening habit, which has been suggested, by tethering so he can't get to you and giving him a Kong to keep him occupied is a good start until you can see the behaviorist. Lots of things become habits and that's what this might be.

Based on an average dog's day, Lloyd seems to get a lot of attention. But the exercise may not be enough for him. 

I have a friend who treadmills her very active highly intelligent Rottie mix in addition to their normal walks. It think she does 20-30 minutes on the treadmill per day. It has made a tremendous difference in her dog's temperament.
She helped me teach Chance to treadmill for exercise and weight control. Chance didn't love it so we didn't pursue it but it's pretty easy to train them to walk the treadmill. Chance had it down in a couple of lessons. 
You know the saying - a tired dog is a good dog.

Also, there are interactive games that might challenge him and tire him out mentally. You can make your own too.
[/URL] http://www.nina-ottosson.com/[/URL]
Just one more idea because it looks like Lloyd has energy he doesn't know what to do with.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

I'm not a training expert but am on my third Golden. The first was very mouthy and the current one is not mouthy but pretty high energy. What I saw in the video is a dog that is really trying to engage you. As someone else said you can see the pauses where he looks to see your reaction.

I remember the trainer we worked with for our first Golden said get to know how your dog is likely to behave or react and get out in front of that. If you expect he's going to be hyper at 8:00 pm manage it ahead by giving the kong or crating or whatever before he has a chance to get hyper. 

In the video it seemed that you were reacting somewhat passively as the dog misbehaved. It seemed to me that maybe he wanted you to tell him what to do. Instead of just saying no or shrieking give him direction, try asking for a behavior he knows well, a down or a sit for instance. I've found this to work when I'm having less than good behavior from mine. Engage him in some training and reward for compliance.

Try to figure out what the triggers are or the patterns of events that seem to bring the episodes on and then change things up so that pattern doesn't occur. Also, if you have a place where you can do it I've found that a few minutes of playing fetch with a wubba or tennis ball is great for burning off this kind frenzied energy.

Hope you find a solution that works for you.


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## quilter (Sep 12, 2011)

Casper used to do this, though he did not bite so hard. It is, in my opinion, a combination of attention getting, boredom, exhaustion, and a confused sense of positive feedback.  The things we think are negative attention – saying No, yanking our hands away, pushing the dog away, walking away – the dog thinks these are all positive things! They are very physical dogs – pushing and pulling are games. Waving your hands away, moving away (don’t run!), yelping – they all make us look like prey – and what fun that is!

My solution. You have to remove all feedback/attention and have a zero tolerance policy. You can’t say, “Well, it’s OK if his mouth is open but not closing.” Or, “It’s OK if he jumps, but it doesn’t hurt.” At the first sign of trouble, do one of two things. Ignore or leave. Ignoring is easier if you can do it, because you don’t have to get off the couch. When I was training Casper out of pawing at me, I wore jeans. Of course, he was terrible on day three. I then trained him to put his head on my knee to get attention. Every time he put his head down, I would pet him. When his head popped up, I stopped petting. The whole thing took two weeks. 

The other choice is to leave. That is what I would do, because of the hard mouthing. Sometimes Casper would get all wound up during training, so I’d turn and go in the laundry room (right next to where we train). No emotion. Wait at least 30 seconds before returning. He has to get the idea that he did something, so you left. If he starts up again when you return, leave again. Don’t talk to him. Don’t touch him. Especially don’t touch him. The inclination is to grab the collar, but that’s about the worst thing to do with a mouthy dog, because dogs generally don’t like you grabbing for their heads. So they swing around with the mouth.

Casper would do this late in the evening, instead of going to sleep. How a dog can get tired and not know to go to sleep, I have no idea. But it’s true. Once I got him to stop doing this, he started going to sleep much earlier in the evening.

As far as other ways to handle the attention problem, you can use training. Casper loves his training time. He gets lots of treats and he likes to work for his treats. Even though it’s working, he sees it as one-on-one attention. Which is it. When we are done, I say All Done, give him two treats in his bowl, and then ignore him. That way he knows there is no reward in bothering me.

I would not handle this using punishment. If you think about it, it’s going to take some significant unpleasantness to shut him down. Also, punishment will just up the arousal level.

On the dog reactivity thing, when you see him look at the dog, but not lunge/bark, say Good Dog and give him a treat. That's the basis of Look At That, which is the start of dealing with distractions. Soon, when you say Look At That, his head will spin around instead of looking at the other dog. That's the first step to keeping him from getting all wound up about the other dog. It really does work!


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## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

Asking for attention: Several of the games in the ruff love book are specifically on this topic (and several more indirectly).

When dogs need/want additional attention or support they will handle that in different ways. Even if you are giving him lots of attention - we want to flip it around so he is asking for it in better ways. I'm definitely not saying do less attention - we just need him to learn offered behaviors to get the attention.

Some things on how to do that:
- Pick tthe behavior you want (attention. sit. down. whatever).
- At a non bitey time, ask for the behavior, reward. release. cue , behavior, reward, release.
- Then pause and see if he will offer it on his own. If so, reward!
- Play this game in various situations where you can provide real life rewards. (approach door, cue sit, sit happens, reward, release back into the house and repeat 5-10 times. On the last rep, after the sit you can open the door and invite him out). We want to see that he begins to do the behavior on his own without prompting from you.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

I showed this video to Wifey and she got flashbacks to Millie's poor behavior. The only difference is that Millie didn't bark like Lloyd does. 

We found a trainer who has a long, successful history of working with local shelters to save aggressive dogs from being destroyed. 

He gave us an off switch for Millie. This behavior is gone now. As soon as we were able to clearly communicate with Millie that what she was doing was not on she stopped doing it. The boundary has been clearly defined for her and we are all better for it. I believe that you need to define this boundary for the gorgeous Lloyd. 

I'm not suggesting Lloyd's behavior is aggression at all, just that seeking out a trainer that knows how to rehabilitate the "worst of the worst" was invaluable to us. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Goldylover2 (May 1, 2014)

Chritty said:


> I showed this video to Wifey and she got flashbacks to Millie's poor behavior. The only difference is that Millie didn't bark like Lloyd does.
> 
> We found a trainer who has a long, successful history of working with local shelters to save aggressive dogs from being destroyed.
> 
> ...


I was in the same situation with my pup Caleb that you were in with Millie. My pup was the worst of the worst. Finding that trainer who can handle dogs like this is invaluable. I found a trainer 70 miles away from my home and didn't hesitate. He kept him a week and then we made that round trip every weekend for seven weeks.


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## Stephanya (Jul 5, 2015)

Have you tried putting Lloyd in a time-out the second he starts biting you? If Zoe amps up in the house and even puts her teeth on my skin momentarily, she gets a sharp NO and into the kitchen she goes until she cools off. I also got some advice from Chritty that was immensely helpful regarding teaching Zoe that NO means NO. I am not generally into aversive training, but I think sometimes a balanced approach (using both positive and negative) is in order when bad behavior escalates. It's interesting, because with Zoe, she's now at the point that I only have to raise my finger, step toward her, and say a firm "no" and she stops in her track with the biting. She's a leash biter, too, and is on the waning side of arousal biting, and aversive training was what helped me to get it under control. Additionally, our positive reinforcement trainers (ahimsa) taught me to notice signs of her arousal before she goes full-blown, and to bring her back down preventatively. With Zoe, we can pull out the high value treats in these moments and do obedience work, nose work (find it) etc. I have curbed her arousal biting significantly just with these two tools. My last thought, and something I have absolutely no experience with, might be to look into an e-collar. Obviously you would need a really good trainer to teach you how to use it, but I will say that my brother uses it for his labrador and that dog absolutely listens to every command and knows the meaning of "no." I don't think it's right for most dogs, but it wouldn't hurt to consider it, especially if the other option you're staring in the face is rehoming your beloved dog. 

I feel so bad for what you're going through. It's such a bummer. At the very least, I hope the behaviorist proves to be enormously helpful. Best wishes, lloyd's mom!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I am not as nice as the posters before me. They call it attention seeking behavior. I call it being a total and complete brat! Either way, I don't see any aggression, but can tell you I would have put a stop to this a LONG time ago. I don't tolerate my dogs putting their mouths on me, it's super rude behavior and it needs to stop. One thing I will suggest, since others have given suggestions on how to get him to stop, is to not squeak or squeal when he does bite you. If you have to make noise because it hurts ROAR and mean it. Then put him in his crate and go back to what you were doing. Make the consequence equal or surpass his misbehavior. The squealing is just riling him up more.


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## amandac (May 4, 2015)

You may also want to look into training, the kind that makes him use his brain. Sometimes physical exercise does not tire them out enough-Zoey gets more tired after nosework or barn hunt class than after she goes for a long hike! Also, dogs are like people; some like physical exercise and some like mental exercise. Look at him with a new eye and try to see what he seems to enjoy most (besides trying to get you to play/interact with him). Zoey seemed to like to use her nose a lot, so we went that way.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

fostermom said:


> I am not as nice as the posters before me. They call it attention seeking behavior. I call it being a total and complete brat! Either way, I don't see any aggression, but can tell you I would have put a stop to this a LONG time ago. I don't tolerate my dogs putting their mouths on me, it's super rude behavior and it needs to stop. One thing I will suggest, since others have given suggestions on how to get him to stop, is to not squeak or squeal when he does bite you. If you have to make noise because it hurts ROAR and mean it. Then put him in his crate and go back to what you were doing. Make the consequence equal or surpass his misbehavior. The squealing is just riling him up more.


I'm not training expert either, and I agree with this. My BF and I have commented many times that either we've been pretty lucky with our various pets we've had over the past 20 years, or our animals feed off of how we carry ourselves. 

I also do not see aggressive behavior from Lloyd, and one thing that I also thought when I viewed the video was your voice was high pitched, which can be very exciting to him as well. 

But when you finally said "No!" and got up - he stopped - and seemed to be in a calm state of mind. 

With Noah - when he gets too exciteable and "forgets himself", both Karl and myself tend to be very matter of fact, with a very stern "No SIR!" with a very serious facial expression. If he continues, we stand up and get into his space, where he backs up and say "No SIR!" again. When he stops the behavior, we then ask him for a few commands (sit, down, etc) and reward him for being a good boy, so that our interaction ends on a positive note. 

If he's just too keyed up for that (and it's always night time when/if it occurs), he gets put to bed in his crate - it's usually a sign for us that he's just too tired to find his off switch. He usually ends up dropping to the floor of the crate with a big sigh as if he's relieved that we just took control when he couldn't - and he's asleep soon after. 

I know that that was just a short clip, but like others said - it definitely doesn't look like aggression to me. And given the time of day (night) that it's happening, is it possible he's just too tired to make good decisions and maybe he needs to be crated for the night? I still agree he needs some behavior modification training.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

rabernet said:


> I'm not training expert either, and I agree with this. My BF and I have commented many times that either we've been pretty lucky with our various pets we've had over the past 20 years, or our animals feed off of how we carry ourselves.
> 
> I also do not see aggressive behavior from Lloyd, and one thing that I also thought when I viewed the video was your voice was high pitched, which can be very exciting to him as well.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this. 

The first thing I thought when I watched the video is how Chloe gets rough sometimes. She doesn't pull on clothes or anything. But she will put her front paws up and use her mouth on our hands or arms. We tell her no in a very stern voice. With my dads voice he can usually get her to stop then she gets a toy and brings it to him. If she don't she gets put in the kitchen for a few minutes. But the thing that has helped the most is a two mile walk about 730 or eight. She then comes home and crashes.


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## quilter (Sep 12, 2011)

fostermom said:


> ... One thing I will suggest, since others have given suggestions on how to get him to stop, is to not squeak or squeal when he does bite you. If you have to make noise because it hurts ROAR and mean it. Then put him in his crate and go back to what you were doing. Make the consequence equal or surpass his misbehavior. The squealing is just riling him up more.


Just rambling here. It can take quite some yelling to make an impression. Last weekend I was painting a bedroom and Casper got into the room. I screamed. I live in a suburb and I expect several of the neighbors overheard! But Casper did turn around and leave. Which is great, since I don't think he actually knows the word Out. (We have other words, but not Out.)

Not all dogs need this level of yelling. My last dog, wow, that would have put him under the table the rest of the day. And it can be hard to fake the yelling.


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## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

... Use caution. Some of the recommendations here could lead to a serious bite depending on your dog/timing/other factors. [speaking from experience from my dog who was like this. and from seeing clients. Not saying it can't work - but ... important to consider]

And to clarify...I wasn't saying it's okay or acceptable in any way. My choice to describe it as "attention seeking" was to describe the function/purpose of the behavior.

If we look at this from a behavior analysis perspective 
Antecedent: the cue/prompt/scenario that happens before the behavior
Behavior: what the dog does
Consequence: What drives the behavior (and causes it to happen more or less frequently in the future).

Most dog owners want to concentrate on the consequences and that is important. "Consequences drive behavior.". But in situations like this we want to also consider the antecedents.

I would make a plan for consequences - both for when the biting happens (calm removal to the crate like recommended use a drag leash to make it simpler) but also when he is NOT doing those things. Also look at the antecedents like in my last post - how can we avoid those situations and in other times teach him that person on couch = go to mat. Dogs on walks = calm attention etc ..so change those things from signals to jump/bite to be signals that focus on you.

In the video (I didn't watch with sound)
Antecedent: Sitting on couch( which is not a 1:1 always resulting in biting)
Behavior: Jumping, biting, growling, tugging on clothes)
Consequence: person noises, person moves, person tugs away, etc

Behavior is increasing in intensity/frequency or at least maintaining. That tells us it has been rewarding. So we need to be sure to change the consequence.

Downloads:Worksheets - BehaviorWorks.com


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

SwimDog said:


> ... Use caution. Some of the recommendations here could lead to a serious bite depending on your dog/timing/other factors. [speaking from experience from my dog who was like this. and from seeing clients. Not saying it can't work - but ... important to consider]



Exactly why you should see a professional and not try to do it yourself.

ETA: it might worth noting that Lloyd's mom is already being bitten. The behaviour has obviously been very self-rewarding for Lloyd


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## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

Did the broken skin occur in incidents like in the video or differently? I specifically was talking about dogs who are 'going after' the handler in a distance increasing/aggression sort of way - and I was unclear - yes, broken skin in any way is considered a bite by most standards. Dogs who bite to increase distance are ---always--- more scary to me than dogs who break skin while trying to solicit attention. 

It's not the behavior that is rewarding but the consequences of the behavior. The results and the neurochemical/electrical changes in the brain that result.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

This looks to me like a very high drive dog. A working environment would be perfect for this dog. This is the kind of dog that a search and rescue or explosive detection or contraband dog trainer would just love. 
I'm getting ready for work so I didn't read all the responses. Apologies. 
My suggestion is something like agility, formal obedience, treiball, nose work, or some such activity that uses his brain. Physical fatigue may not be enough, he may need mental discipline in the sense of using his problem solving and thinking abilities. 



Sent from my GORGEOUS, SEXY, AWESOME Gold 128G iPhone 6️️️️️


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

This!!

Your dog needs outlets for his drives -- obedience, agility; perhaps nosework but that may not engage him enough. I'd say hunt but I honestly don't know if that is the answer.

Goldens should have an on/off switch but they need an outlet for their 'on'. Your dog is desperately trying to engage with you; and you are not allowing it. Get up and train him, tug with him, body play. When he sits back you can see he is thinking- give him ways to engage that you find acceptable. 5-10-15 minutes of training just a few times a day will work wonders -- not necessarily exercise but something that engages his brain and give him a sense of companionship and being a member of a team.

Goldens are bred to be active, thinking and working dogs - members of a team. Watching TV with you works after they have used their brains and bodies - oh, peanut work, body awareness exercises also provide great outlets for when the weather is not great for outdoor activities.

I know what you are going through - my first golden was very high drive and I did not know about keeping the brain engaged and training - I too had holes in my clothes from him trying to engage  He taught me so much and was truly an awesome dog once I recognized and honored his needs,

As I type this, my golden are all at my feet, happily panting after an early morning hike and training sessions.


ETA: Consider giving him some alone time during the day. So he can chill out and just be - maybe a crate or a dog yard.


Lilliam said:


> This looks to me like a very high drive dog. A working environment would be perfect for this dog. This is the kind of dog that a search and rescue or explosive detection or contraband dog trainer would just love.
> I'm getting ready for work so I didn't read all the responses. Apologies.
> My suggestion is something like agility, formal obedience, treiball, nose work, or some such activity that uses his brain. Physical fatigue may not be enough, he may need mental discipline in the sense of using his problem solving and thinking abilities.
> 
> ...


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

Thank you everyone for your replies! You've all been so helpful and have great advice. I probably should have mentioned in my original post that this is not the only issue I've been working through with my dog. 

He recently became very reactive to most large dogs. It came out of the blue and was a complete shock has he had been very well socialized and only had positive interactions with other dogs. He is still great with dogs he knows, but it is very stressful to take him on walks because of how he lunges, growls, and barks at other dogs. The same day he first barked at another dog when on leash, I actually took him to an off leash park for a swim session. He got into a fight at the dog park that day. I haven't taken him since and his dog reactivity has continued to get worse.

I took him to the vet to determine if anything medical could be going on and after a lot of money spent and switching vets (long story on other threads) he was diagnosed as hypothyroid and has been on meds for about three weeks. In that three weeks, his coat is softer, he seems less anxious, and has a higher tolerance for dogs he doesn't know. He will still bark if they get too close, but I try to keep a distance and cross the street, etc. if a dog approaches. 

He also was diagnosed with pano as I noticed he had a limp when running. This was a couple of months ago before he was reactive to dogs. Before the limping, I took him to play fetch and do nosework in the park every morning and it really wore him out. However, all the behaviors towards me (jumping and biting) were still there. It doesn't seem like it matters how hard I work him physcially, mentally, etc. he still will act out in this way. 

I should also mention that the bitey behavior occurs most commonly when we are out walking on leash. Most commonly it will happen in the morning when we are the only two people out and about. While he may hear something that sets him off, I certainly don't. It tends to happen in the same spots as well. So, we approach those areas I try to engage him more in find it and rewards for loose leash walking to keep him focused on other things. Still, it is sometimes not enough and he will jump, bite, growl and pull on my clothes. My arms are covered in bruises from this right now.

I should also mention that this jumpy, bitey behavior had seemed to extinguiush for a period of about two months 9 months until about 3 weeks ago. It could be that he just was not feeling weel due to the thyroid condition and now he's feeling better and is back to his old ways. 

I hope it does'nt sound like I'm making excuses, just wanted those who are so kind to take the time to post the entire story. 

Thanks again!


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"He recently became very reactive to most large dogs. It came out of the blue and was a complete shock has he had been very well socialized and only had positive interactions with other dogs."

It didn't come out of the blue. Remember the two boxers at work that ran at their gate barking and lunging toward Lloyd. It happened a few times and you noticed him afraid to go past them and started taking him out of the building another way.

His fear has generalized. 

The lunging, barking is to make himself look big and bad to scare off the other dog because he is afraid. The reward for doing this is either the other dog moves away or you move him away.

As you say he starts biting his leash on the way out the door for the first potty walk. I am guessing he is anxious and stressed at the idea of going outside where he may meet something scary.

So every morning almost the very first thing he becomes anxious and stressed and these things occur throughout the day stacking on each other.

Each incident that happens isn't segregated to that incident. Each incident is stacking on top of the next. 

Lloyd loves you and knows you love him when he is seeking your attention the way he does stems from everything that has happened for months, weeks, days, and that day. He is stressed and anxious and is using inappropriate ways to interact with you. 

If I were in your shoes I would follow Swimdogs suggestions until you can see the behaviorist. 

I truly think things can change for you and Lloyd under the guidance of a professional.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think Swimdog has given really extraordinary, detailed advice here, and I'd follow it. 

I'll note that I have had similar experiences with clients who have tried some of the aversives mentioned here (e-collars, collar pops, yelling, etc.), and while they do work on _some_ dogs, because they break the pattern and cause the dog to back down, with a significant percentage of dogs, they lead to a nasty bite for the owner as the situation gets escalated from brattiness (like we see in the video) to full-blown confrontation or fear.

When you intimidate a highly aroused dog, you run the risk that the dog will choose to escalate the situation in response, rather than backing down. If the dog thinks there's a threat of pain or danger, he may bite to try to get it to stop. Any method that uses discomfort, intimidation, or pain runs this risk. 

I see a total brat of a young Golden who has learned how to get you to "play." If this were my dog, I'd give him a job (start an obedience class and then transition into rally or agility), and I'd make sure that I wasn't doing anything that could be misconstrued as play in response to his brattiness. That could mean separating him from myself or using a tether, since it looks like he's figured out how to prevent you from ignoring him successfully. And then when he's not being a brat, initiating play with toys with him so he can get the idea of how to play appropriately (i.e., by bringing over a rope toy in order to play tug or something, rather than using me as the toy).

Good luck! A trainer with solid, up-to-date methodology might be a great ally here. The APDT trainer search is a good start. APDT membership doesn't guarantee that your trainer is good, but it will certain weed out some of the people who just make up dog psychology as they go and work by intimidating dogs.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I think Swimdog has given really extraordinary, detailed advice here, and I'd follow it.
> 
> some of the aversives mentioned here (e-collars, collar pops, yelling, etc.), . . . with a significant percentage of dogs, they lead to a nasty bite for the owner as the situation gets escalated from brattiness (like we see in the video) to full-blown confrontation or fear.
> .


 I completely agree with these thoughts about both SwimDog's good advice, about Susan Garrett's Ruff Love, and TippyK's warnings about applying aversives to dogs over threshold, especially ones who are "middle management" and seeking to advance their status. We teach 400 dogs a week season after season, and in the human aggression class so often the trigger was a sudden aversive tool from an exasperated owner without the skills and timing to use it. 

I do agree he is being rude and bratty, not aggressive. There is just no way I would ever let any dog practice that behavior on me. The problem is dogs do what they rehearse and get better at that behavior, so the more he practices that bratty biting, the more he is going to do it. It could be he needs less attention, with two hours in his crate in the morning, and two in the afternoon for a while so that he can amuse himself and develop an off switch? 

What if you let him drag a leash or check cord, and if he starts that nonsense step quietly on the lead. Practice "down" in good moments and reward it like crazy so it becomes an easy default behavior. Instead of yelping or getting flustered, when Lloyd does this step on his lead very neutraly and calmly, and ask DOWN. Reward the down but keep him there until you are ready to engage. Another thing to do is get up, walk out, and close the door.

Truthfully I don't think an hour of leash walking is enough for Llyod Dobbler at this age. Can he go for an off leash hike in the woods, or even take a peak at his hips & elbows by xray and if all his great bike him on softer ground? It would be really helpful for him to blow off steam with "dog time" and get truly tired daily. The dog park and doggie day cares can cause as many problems as they solve.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

After reading the well thought out responses from our more experienced member/trainers that followed behind mine (and those who I have developed a great respect for), I realize that I may very well have been hasty in my earlier response, which was based on what has worked for us, and their responses made it clear to me that one size does not fit all. 

I'll just close that to say - listen to them, and I'll be rooting you and Lloyd on as you navigate this trying time with him! While I'm not currently experiencing what you are, I AM learning from this thread, and that's a good thing!


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Before being totally scared off of anything aversive I would beg you to talk to people on here privately who do use aversives/corrections. I did and I'm glad I did for we now have solved the very same issue that you have. I asked these people how damaged their dogs and their relationships with them were. They all have well rounded, obedient, happy dogs. I was also meeting well behaved dogs, dogs that behaved the way that I wished Millie behaved and they had the same message for me. 

Millie too went through periods where she wouldn't behave like this, particularly at 6 months and 9 months of age. It would seem like she outgrew it but then it would return. Now that we added a new method into our training she doesn't even try to do it. The biting has stopped, my wife can't believe how simple it was. I wish I could share with you all the messages I used to receive whilst I was working from my wife. Millie would torment her. She almost didn't want Millie anymore. One night she locked herself away in the bathroom just to get away from the torment and she wept. Not what owning a dog is about. And all of this was going on whilst trying every non-aversive method in the book. 

Even in the posts that are warning you against even thinking about using an aversive they do say it works. Educate yourself about it. Talk to good trainers about it. Talk to owners of well behaved dogs about it. Talk to owners of champion dogs about it. Watch some videos by Michael Ellis about it. 

We use 2 aversives now for Millie and that's it. The rest is aversive free training. And I never put a foot forward without the guidance of a trainer (our particular trainer has been training troubled dogs for 30 years and is the only trainer that our local rescue uses). 

I only write this as someone who has had a puppy with this exact same behaviour as you. I really, really want you to have the same thing that we do now which is what owning a dog is about.

ETA: an aversive can be something as simple as walking into your dog's space.


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

I'm so thankful for all the great suggestions and help! You guys are amazing and I appreciate it so much. 

I must admit, I'm completely overwhelmed and feel completely horrible and guilty that I have let my dog down. I have been so puzzled by his behavior and haven't been able to connect what has caused what that I didn't know where to begin.

My pup did have two or three experiences at work where two boxer/pit bull mixes ran up to the end of the isle to a baby gate and barked very loudly and aggressively at Lloyd who was safely on the other side of the baby gate. That is really when his reactivity issues appeared. He was never hurt or even touched by either of those dogs, but apparently that situation may have left quite a mark. 

He had been demonstrating the jumping/biting behavior with me since he was about 4 - 5 months old. Trainers that I've worked with in our various obedience classes have all told me to ignore and stand like a tree and it will distinguish. Swimdog - you are right, it only fueled his fire and has caused him to bite harder and harder. They have also suggested I distract with a tug toy. Tried that many times and he is not interested in it one bit. He only wants to bite on me. One trainer told me I need to learn the triggers so I can avoid them, which I get. However, with him, just going outside is a trigger and I clearly can't avoid that. 

I agree he needs to understand it is not okay and the traditional positive things haven't helped me extinguish the behavior. It is much more difficult to manage when it happens on a walk and am unsure what my plan should be when that happens. It happened this morning and I made him sit by grabbing his harness which forced him to keep all 4 paws on the ground so he couldn't jump. However, he continued to bite my hands and arms and anything he could get his mouth on. Once he stopped the biting I petted him and tried to reward him for being calm. Once I felt he was calm and I could tell he was relaxing we resumed walking. I had to stop and do this twice on a 45 minute walk. Is that a good way to deal with this? I fear that forcing him into a sit while he still bites my hands is not going to help either. I fully get that I need to work on getting him to sit in non-bitey times so that he will listen and do this when he is in a frenzied state of mind. However, he has a near perfect sit on cue when he isn't frenzied already and telling him to sit when he starts getting mouthy does not work. I guess I am skeptical that I'll ever get there. 

He may very well need more mental and physical exercise. However, I live in an urban setting, so that limits my access to quiet trails or any place that would be safe for him to be off leash given his dog reactivity issue. He loves to swim, but the only places it is legal for him are no longer safe for him. So, we walk a minimum of 60 minutes per day. Most days it is more like 90 and also play time with my neighbor's golden and husky. We also play fetch for about 20 - 30 minutes and sometimes do nose work. I will start doing more of that and have a book to read to learn more about it.

I'm not opposed to a balanced training approach, but am scared to try anything at this point. I'm clearly in way over my head and have managed to screw this up with what I have tried to do and things I didn't do. I am aware I come at this with way too much emotion and it is not useful. That said, I feel like I have tried to set my dog up for success in every way and have done a lot of research to do the right things in terms of training, socialization, exercise, relaxation protocols, etc. I feel like I've tried to be proactive and have sought out help and yet here I am. It doesn't feel good. 

Thanks again for all of your suggestions.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

What she said.
Your dog is being a brat. Pure and simple. And you are acting like a big squeaky toy, which gets him more and more excited.
As others have said, you need to work with a professional who has experience in this type of behavior so that you can enjoy a better bond with your dog.




fostermom said:


> I am not as nice as the posters before me. They call it attention seeking behavior. I call it being a total and complete brat! Either way, I don't see any aggression, but can tell you I would have put a stop to this a LONG time ago. I don't tolerate my dogs putting their mouths on me, it's super rude behavior and it needs to stop. One thing I will suggest, since others have given suggestions on how to get him to stop, is to not squeak or squeal when he does bite you. If you have to make noise because it hurts ROAR and mean it. Then put him in his crate and go back to what you were doing. Make the consequence equal or surpass his misbehavior. The squealing is just riling him up more.


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

I do have an appointment with a veterinary behaviorist on 9/7 and will let you all know what she suggests for us. Until then, I am going to try managing this situation with Swimdog's great recommendations. I love my dog and so want him to be the happy, sweet, loving pup I know he can be. He is a love bug more than he's not. I want my pup to have a great life and be happy. That's my goal.


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## DJdogman (Apr 23, 2013)

No need to feel overwhelmed, once you see the behaviourist, this could be very simple to fix with the right guidance and consistency. From my experience, it only takes a few small changes to turn a confused, misbehaving dog, into an obedient well-behaved dog. After trying many different methods and trainers, what worked for us was something that was a little tougher than we had previously tried - but it worked immediately, within 5 minutes of entering that training class, there was a massive difference. Best of luck, do keep us updated on his progress, it looks like there are lots of people very interested in this subject!


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## Stephanya (Jul 5, 2015)

One last thing I thought of that works to snap Zoe out of her arousal frenzies: I simply tie her leash around a pole/tree on our walk and step a few feet out of her reach. For Zoe, she is so attached to me that at this point, I only have to start tying her leash up and she stops the biting in her tracks. I guess she realizes that it's better to stop biting me and walk nicely than attempt biting me and therefore be tied to a tree. I don't know if this would work for Lloyd, but at least it would give you a little breathing space to calm down (both of you, I'm guessing!) and he wouldn't be able to bite on you. Just a thought...!


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

Stephanya said:


> One last thing I thought of that works to snap Zoe out of her arousal frenzies: I simply tie her leash around a pole/tree on our walk and step a few feet out of her reach. For Zoe, she is so attached to me that at this point, I only have to start tying her leash up and she stops the biting in her tracks. I guess she realizes that it's better to stop biting me and walk nicely than attempt biting me and therefore be tied to a tree. I don't know if this would work for Lloyd, but at least it would give you a little breathing space to calm down (both of you, I'm guessing!) and he wouldn't be able to bite on you. Just a thought...!


Thank you! That is a GREAT suggestion. I will definitely be giving it a try! The trainer for my BAT (behavior adjustment training) class has been wonderful and spent some time with me showing me how I can mentally wear him out quickly but doing some quick obedience drills, tug, etc. and suggested I spend about 5 minutes doing those activities before going outside. So far it seems like that too is helping. But, he's still had a couple of outbursts, so I will employ the tie to a tree/sign/whatever is safe and sturdy approach when it does happen!


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

DJdogman said:


> No need to feel overwhelmed, once you see the behaviourist, this could be very simple to fix with the right guidance and consistency. From my experience, it only takes a few small changes to turn a confused, misbehaving dog, into an obedient well-behaved dog. After trying many different methods and trainers, what worked for us was something that was a little tougher than we had previously tried - but it worked immediately, within 5 minutes of entering that training class, there was a massive difference. Best of luck, do keep us updated on his progress, it looks like there are lots of people very interested in this subject!


Thank you so much for the reassurance! I'm hoping to find a few things that will make a big difference for my boy. I'd love to hear more about your story and what things helped in your case. I know every dog and situation is different, but I feel I learn so much from everyone else's experiences! Thanks in advance!


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## Loukia (Sep 20, 2014)

Lloyd's Mom, I've been away from the forum for awhile because life got busy with the kids being home from school. I'm so sorry to read about your challenges, but you've gotten wonderful advice. 

I can sympathize because Comet and I have been through our share of challenges with similar behavior. Don't be too hard on yourself. You haven't failed your dog... you're working hard to try to solve the problem and that's the best thing you can do for your relationship. Instead of feeling down about how things have gone, you really deserve a pat on the back for not giving up and for continuing to ask for help. 

When I watched your video, I had flashbacks of Comet (I think it was Chritty who said the same thing... he and I have gone through similar challenges and come out on the other side so to speak). 

One thing I've learned in working with Comet's trainer is that he is a very very high drive dog. He isn't a field Golden but he probably would have made a WONDERFUL bird dog. Unfortunately for me, hunting with Comet really doesn't work into my lifestyle with young kids at home. However, I've really amped up the obedience training and I take him to obedient lessons for competitive obedience (even though I don't really have an interest in competing with him at this time). Practicing his focused heal, turns, and various other training tricks are all activities I can randomly do with him in the yard and around the house. He loves learning new tricks and it's fun for me too. I can even "give him work to do" when I'm making dinner. I have him follow me around, heel, down-stay, touch, pick up toys, etc. while I get things done. I reward him with ice cubes when we aren't officially training and very high value rewards when we are. Spontaneous training sessions give Comet mental exercise when he might otherwise be sitting around feeling bored.

When I was first working with Comet's current trainer, he had me track when Comet would usually demand attention with mouthy behavior, leash biting, etc. For him, it was always at the very end of a walk when we would walk into my yard, first thing in the morning during his morning potty, or late at night either in my kitchen or during the last potty time outside. It honestly seemed like he would go from relaxed to wild and demanding in seconds. 

In working with Comet's trainer, we determined that it was generally pent up mental energy and/or mental/physical exhaustion. At the end of his walks, it was generally the excitement of being done mixed with feeling tired from the walk and training. In the morning or in my kitchen it was often him feeling like he had pent up mental energy. At late at night it was usually on nights I didn't put him to bed on time. He definitely did it for attention and to get me to play with him... but it obviously wasn't what I wanted and it left him feeling frustrated also because I would get mad or frustrated. 

A combination of things worked for Comet:
1. Increasing mental stimulation (increasing physical activity made things worse, but increasing training and mental activity helped tremendously)
2. Immediately removing contact... So, if he was doing this outside, I silently walked in and put him right in his cage and left the room. Or if he started at night, I would put him in his cage and walk away. He quickly learned that his attempts at play got him nowhere and resulted in the exact opposite of what he really wanted.
3. A collar pop - I know this isn't the answer for all dogs and this is where a really good trainer comes into play because he was able to work through various training tools and assess what was the best method for Comet. For Comet, he needed a breakthrough to reset himself and stop his high drive personality. He would get in a mood and was so focused on his own actions that he really didn't hear me. The collar pop was just enough to break through and get his attention. It usually made him sit and wait for a command. 

At this point, the behavior isn't 100% gone, but it's 99% gone. I've learned to manage it, so I know his tendency is to go wild at the very end of a walk, and I'll get him to focus before we get into my yard and have him heel as we walk to the house. I'll actually make him train through the usual naughty period, until we can get inside and then he's past it. I also know that Comet needs to go to bed at the same time every night. He thrives on a very consistent sleep schedule (which isn't fun on a Saturday morning but it makes every day easier). He also gets the message very quickly now if he doesn't something I don't like. He rarely ever needs a collar pop and responds very well to a verbal cue. If he gets pushy now by barking or if he mouths me, I stop all interaction and leave (or bring him inside, without any interaction and put him in his crate). It's gotten to the point now where if he mouths me and I stand up, he'll generally put himself in a sit and then I'll tell him to go get his toy. I feel like most of the behavior has been eliminated because his mental needs are being met and he has learned that behaving a certain way gets him nowhere. 

Since getting Comet over a year ago, I did find out that one of Comet's littermates was given back to the breeder because he was too aggressive and the family was worried about the dog around their young children. The breeder took the dog back, assessed him and agreed he wasn't a good fit for that family. She determined that he wasn't aggressive, but he was acting out and needed more than the family could provide. The dog is now working as a service dog, so he was and is an amazing dog, he just needed a bigger outlet for his intelligence.

I share all of this because I'm hoping it gives you something to look forward to and I'm also hoping it eases your mind if you're fearful that you have an aggressive dog on your hands. The challenges you're seeing in Lloyd can result in amazing qualities and behaviors if you can work with someone who will help you manage them. Lloyd may be acting this way because he's super smart and has the need for more work and mental stimulation. 

My trainer likes to joke that I've got a Malinois trapped in a Golden body (definitely not what I signed up for but I wouldn't change it now). Comet is my first puppy and I would do many things differently if I could start over, but I've learned a lot, I've done my best, I kept seeking help, and I finally found the right fit to help me redirect Comet into the dog he is today. Comet's high drive personality isn't what I thought I was getting and it took me several months to realize his needs and his mental requirements. We've definitely had our bumps in the road, but it's turned out to be a really amazing experience for both of us and we have a wonderful bond. 

I look forward to hearing about your appointment with the behaviorist.


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

Thank you Loukia for this wonderful update on your journey. You have come a long way!


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## DJdogman (Apr 23, 2013)

lloyddobler said:


> Thank you so much for the reassurance! I'm hoping to find a few things that will make a big difference for my boy. I'd love to hear more about your story and what things helped in your case. I know every dog and situation is different, but I feel I learn so much from everyone else's experiences! Thanks in advance!


Certainly. Charlie was never socialised and very dog reactive and always anxious, so walking him was near impossible with his barking and lunging and snarling. We tried a choke collar, and a slip lead but no difference. Then we tried a trainer who had us work on positive training methods, but it just didn't seem to have an effect on Charlie, and the trainer was resorting to medication to calm him. So we decided to try another trainer as a last resort and haven't looked back.

The new trainer uses the same methods on all dogs no matter what the issue. Firstly, we didn't feed him out of a bowl, only from our hands, so I would carry his kibble around in a bag and whenever he looked at me, I would give him a couple. This trains him to pay attention to you all the time as you are his only food source.

We would make sure he was hungry going on walks so he would pay attention to us for the whole time, and do the same with the kibble if he looked at me and was behaving well. If he reacted to a dog, we were taught to hold the lead taut, and give a hard "flick", not so much a jerk, just a flick of the lead as if you were making a rope move. After the first flick in the training venue, Charlie stopped all of his acting up and just sat calmly next to the trainer. It was amazing. Now if he shows any signs of starting to act up, I only have to jiggle the lead a little and he behaves. They really learn so fast but you have to be consistent. If you leave him get away with it once or twice, its almost like starting all over again the next time you try.

So that's just what worked for us, also ignoring him when he would try to get our attention in not-so-nice ways. We would have to wait until he settled on his own, keep turning our backs if he jumped up, and then go pat his shoulder when he settled and wasn't being a pest.

Your trainer may have his/her own methods, I'm sure there are lots of things that work but whichever you use, the key is most definitely consistency. I'm really looking forward to hearing how you get on!


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

Quick update. We FINALLY had our veterinary behaviorist appointment yesterday. It was 8 long weeks of waiting to get in. She had a lot of great suggestions and things I will start implementing to re-train him new responses to the outside world. She thought that Lloyd's reactivity may have started when the two pit/boxer mixes at worked barked at him very loudly when we walked by those 3 or so times. She said it is amazing that something that seemingly insignificant (since he wasn't even touched) can have such a lasting impact. She said she is guessing, but the fact that his reactivity to specific types of dogs started not long after that is a clue. 

She said he is definitely an anxious dog and is likely conflicted. He has many doggy friends and wants to be with other dogs, but at the same time is afraid of new dogs. That is why he doesn't cower in fear when he sees new, large dogs. He wants to approach, but also assert himself as the big man so the other dog thinks he is in charge.

She recommended Fluoxetine (generic Prozac) for a short period of time (3 months or so) to allow him to calm down and focus/learn a new response more quickly. I'm torn on that and am giving it a lot of thought. However, I do feel better the suggestion was for temporary usage and not long term. 

She gave me so much stuff to read that I haven't even made a dent yet, but am looking forward to studying and coming up with new ways to work with Lloyd and help him live in the world comfortably. 

Thanks again to everyone who took time to respond to my questions and concerns. 

In addition to seeing the vet behaviorist, things have been improving.... slowly. He doesn't seem to react to ALL unknown big dogs anymore. I have found that as long as we don't come head on with another dog, he can usually keep his cool. This means I have to move off the sidewalk and go around a tree, car, or cross the street if another dog is walking towards us. However, at least he doesn't bark at all dogs like he was previously. 

He has had a bad day today and has barked at 2 dogs, but hadn't barked at any dogs for a full week prior. I'm hoping it's just a bad day. 

He's been much less reactive to people as well. I find I can distract him with obedience work and/or treats when people he would react to are near (seems to be men, who are standing still). 

He still barks at most any noise he hears in my home, which is not good considering I live in an apartment... but, the veterinary behaviorist gave me some things to try that will hopefully help desensitize him.

Thanks again all! 

I'd love to hear from anyone who has tried Fluoxetine or similar medication on their pup. Any shared experiences, advice welcomed!


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

I'm glad for you that the consult finally happened!!!

I haven't had experience with Prozac type medications for animals but as long as it's a short term thing I see it as a positive. You would really have to make sure you step down the dose to wean him off though otherwise his chemistry will really make him spin. 

We've been taught in all classes that dogs should never meet face to face but to curve like you are doing now. 

Did the behaviorist talk about your leadership to reduce his anxiety?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Don't hesitate to give him the medication, it will HELP. We had a serious anxiety, neurotic behavior dog in the rescue a few years back. They put him on Prozac and it literally saved his life. We were out of options for helping him exist without daily panic and terror. After building up the dosage to therapeutic levels, his whole behavior changed. He could have a fairly normal daily routine, and he was finally adopted.

You are talking about treating actual, physical, chemical imbalance in the brain. Medication corrects that. It's the same as giving a dog with a heart problem medication to help his heart function better. You wouldn't withhold that medication, and we really should think of meds like Prozac in the same light.


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## Loukia (Sep 20, 2014)

I would certainly give it a try because you really have nothing to lose. They start them out on the lowest dose and then increase it over time if you don't see results. It really could make a huge difference.

I haven't had any experience with Prozac in dogs, but my cat was on it for almost a year. He was on it because he was eating non-food items (pica). After going through all of the potential other reasons for why he would do this, and after many tests came back fine, the vet suggested prozac as an aid to what seemed like a compulsive behavior. 

It took almost 4 weeks for the medication to get into his system and balance, so we didn't see an improvement in his behavior for about a month. After a month of being on the medication he stopped eating non-food items. Once he was about two years old the vet suggested trying to ween him off of it to see if he had outgrown his issue. It took about 6 weeks to ween him off of the prozac. It's important to ween off slowly since it's actually affecting chemicals in the brain and as you ween off, it's important for those chemicals to start to balance themselves. While my cat didn't stop eating nonfood items entirely, he now only chews and eats paper, so it's more manageable and he doesn't consume it as much as he shreds it. The good news is that his pica did improve significantly (no more stuffed animals, socks, rubber toys, etc.) and the prozac enabled him to function happily so that he could move past the worst of it.


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

Thanks all! I consulted with my vet earlier today and he is supportive and feels it could help. That made me feel a bit better, so I am going to give it a try. I've also been seeing a vet who specializes in eastern medicines (she's a DVM who also practices acupuncture and herbal therapy and has certifications in nutrition). She made an herbal mixture to add to his food that contains St. John's Wort, so I have to wait until that is out of his system and will then start the Fluoxetine. 

I've read that some dogs will experience heightened anxiety, etc. I'm going to hope that my pup is not one of them. I don't think either of us could take it. 

 I'll let you know how it goes!


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

How is lovely Lloyd??


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

I'm glad to hear you have met with the behaviorist.

I echo mylissyk's reply. It's exactly how you should think of the fluoxetine.

When we consulted with Dr. Dodman at Tuft's with my German Shepherd Dog many years ago, he advised using Prozac which had only recently been approved for use in dogs. 

It truly made a positive difference without ANY noticeable side effects. None.

It didn't change him in any way other than lowering his anxiety level a little. Not all that much, but enough to allow him to enjoy what life has to offer and join us in activities that had previously been too stressful for him. This afforded him more experiences and built his confidence.

Definitely important to wait until the St. John's Wort is out of his system but don't be afraid to use the fluoxetine. I kept a diary. When I looked back pre-Prozac to post-Prozac, I had wished I had done it sooner.

Best of luck - keep us posted!


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## DJdogman (Apr 23, 2013)

Oh this great news, you must finally feel like you're getting somewhere. In a few months I bet both of your lives will be very different. That's great that he doesn't bark as much anymore. Don't be worried about the small setbacks. My boy has been like that over the months, he has good weeks and bad weeks, but you see the bad episodes less and less. Even if they come every now and then, its no big deal, just persevere with whatever you're doing as its obviously working.


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