# Starting over with recall :(



## LynnC (Nov 14, 2015)

First I'm sorry this post is so long . Luna is 1 1/2 and has been OK with her recall. Let me start by saying to be honest we truly never reinforced the recall we learned in her obedience class as we should have. We would let her off leash while we were outside with her and as she "checked in" with me I would praise her and give her treats, then she would just follow us in the house. Our last snowstorm she was enjoying playing off leash with us then my neighbors (2 houses away through the woods) dog came out and was barking at Luna. Luna immediately ran through the woods and was running back and forth along their fence (their dog was fenced in) chasing their dog. We kept calling her "Luna come, Luna come, Luna come etc etc etc" . We know she heard us because she kept looking at us but ignored us. My DH finally hiked through the snow to get her but she kept running away from him. She clearly saw this as a game. After about 1 hour of him trying he gave up and came home very defeated. I then went out with cheese and she would come about 3-4 feet from me and as soon as I reached to give her the cheese (& grab her collar) she would back up. I finally came in the house, left the garage door open, watched her through the window and when the other dog went in to their house she came back to the garage door!!!! Then last week my DH was walking her in our yard and the neighbor dog starting calling to her. DH said she put on the brakes and pulled her head right out of her collar!!! She looked at him (realizing she's free), he said "Luna no" and off she ran!! He didn't chase her just watched her through the window and finally she just came back. Now on Easter the same thing! We had a lot of company and was having an egg hunt on our front lawn. Someone let Luna out without her leash and she was free .........!!!!! We let her alone until it was time to go back in the house. Everyone went in but Luna would not come in. Everyone was trying to catch her waving hot dogs calling "Luna come, Luna come, Luna come etc etc etc) as she ran away with an Easter egg in her mouth! She finally went up to my 13 YO nephew who was ignoring her and he grabbed her collar. I was exhausted and embarrassed! Now I know we clearly need to start ALL OVER with her recall but I'm wondering do we need to change it from "Luna come" to "Luna here" maybe? I'm just afraid she now associates "come" with a catch me if you can game??? I'm also afraid she's VERY strong willed and will never have a great recall. She's a doll and does so well with her training but throw in a distraction and everything goes out the window! She is my 4th golden I've had and if I turned my back on ANY of my other dogs and started to walk away they would be like "wait don't leave without me", NOT LUNA . I just feel bad because we always have her on a leash and she enjoys her off leash time so much (maybe a bit too much?). Not to mention my number 1 concern for her safety! Any advice would be appreciated


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

That is a frightening feeling when you dog turns off their hearing! I'm glad she is safe.
I always use a Martingale collar so they can't slip out of it. I have two commands... come here is for the everyday times i call her in. I use come front for obedience work. 

I also need to start over.. I thought Sipsy's recall was very dependable but it's not grand kid proof. My grandmother used to call this selective hearing  I will be working on recall where there are more distractions.

Good luck on your training and grateful she is safe!


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Yes, you are correct in your assessment that your inconsistency and general management of Luna has created her complete disregard for your authority. She is still a puppy in many regards. If I were you I would get back into formal obedience classes with her. I would choose a Dog Training Club with serious competition dog people teaching classes. You're going to spend the next 10 years kicking yourself if you don't get things under control with her.

Absolutely NO MORE off leash freedom allowing her to practice blowing you off. It is just teaching her bad behavior works for her and will end up getting her killed or seriously injured. Purchase a 30 foot long line from a hardware store and put a clip on the end of it. Get serious about daily practice of recall and reinforce any reluctance with the line. It's your job to make practice fun - have your husband help you and call her back and forth between you (puppy ping pong) rewarding with high value treats. Start working on this in the house - Randomly call her to you and reward with a treat. After a while you can start calling her to you and petting her and praising her instead of giving her food. Not knowing what she is going to get each time should help. 

DO NOT call her to you outdoors unless you have a way of reinforcing your command. Instead, run away from her (with food or a toy) and let her chase you. Everytime she has an opportunity to blow you off when you call her, it is cementing her experience of being in charge.

Do a search on the training protocol "Nothing In Life is Free" and start living that way with her. She must work for privileges. She wants to go outdoors? She has to "wait" while you open the door and then not go out till you release her. She wants to eat dinner? She waits in a down/stay on a special little mat or rug while you fix her meal and then you set it on the floor next to her but she doesn't get to eat until you release her. She wants you to pet her? She has to "sit" and "shake" to earn it. Everything you have that she wants must be worked for. No more getting on furniture until you invite her up. Have her drag a short leash in the house and use it to reinforce your new rules. She will adjust quickly.

After you have spent_* several months*_ working with her on a daily basis making sure her obedience is solid, you can consider looking into hiring a trainer to teach you to collar condition your dog with an e collar if she is still not reliable with recall. I would contact a retriever club in your area http://pinelandsretrieverclub.org/aboutus.html for example (do a google search for retriever club or check the UKC or AKC website for club contact info) and ask for a referral to a field trainer who can teach you the proper way to collar condition and work with your dog on an e collar. Do not send the dog away, find someone who will work with you so you are learning. This is not used to teach obedience, it is a tool (which is both humane and effective when used correctly) to reinforce commands at a distance. It should only be used on a dog who understands obedience commands and after you have been fully trained on it's use. The collar and lessons are not cheap but they will save your dog's life in an off leash situation.


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## LynnC (Nov 14, 2015)

Nolefan - Thank you for your advice and frankness, I do appreciate it. We knew we were only reinforcing her bad behavior. In hindsight we should have put her in her crate on Easter anticipating her having opportunity (with so much company) to sneak out an open door. I just signed her up for an obedience class starting next Tuesday for 8 weeks and have ordered a martingale collar. The thing is in the house she is soooooo well behaved. She sits and waits patiently to be fed, does not go on furniture (we don't allow it), knows drop it, sit, down, wait - all in the house, no distractions! When she has her freedom outside all bets are off . I realize how dangerous this is and know being her owner is a huge privilege and responsibility.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

LynnC said:


> First I'm sorry this post is so long . Luna is 1 1/2 and has been OK with her recall. Let me start by saying to be honest we truly never reinforced the recall we learned in her obedience class as we should have. We would let her off leash while we were outside with her and as she "checked in" with me I would praise her and give her treats, then she would just follow us in the house. Our last snowstorm she was enjoying playing off leash with us then my neighbors (2 houses away through the woods) dog came out and was barking at Luna. Luna immediately ran through the woods and was running back and forth along their fence (their dog was fenced in) chasing their dog. We kept calling her "Luna come, Luna come, Luna come etc etc etc" . We know she heard us because she kept looking at us but ignored us. My DH finally hiked through the snow to get her but she kept running away from him. She clearly saw this as a game. After about 1 hour of him trying he gave up and came home very defeated. I then went out with cheese and she would come about 3-4 feet from me and as soon as I reached to give her the cheese (& grab her collar) she would back up. I finally came in the house, left the garage door open, watched her through the window and when the other dog went in to their house she came back to the garage door!!!! Then last week my DH was walking her in our yard and the neighbor dog starting calling to her. DH said she put on the brakes and pulled her head right out of her collar!!! She looked at him (realizing she's free), he said "Luna no" and off she ran!! He didn't chase her just watched her through the window and finally she just came back. Now on Easter the same thing! We had a lot of company and was having an egg hunt on our front lawn. Someone let Luna out without her leash and she was free .........!!!!! We let her alone until it was time to go back in the house. Everyone went in but Luna would not come in. Everyone was trying to catch her waving hot dogs calling "Luna come, Luna come, Luna come etc etc etc) as she ran away with an Easter egg in her mouth! She finally went up to my 13 YO nephew who was ignoring her and he grabbed her collar. I was exhausted and embarrassed! Now I know we clearly need to start ALL OVER with her recall but I'm wondering do we need to change it from "Luna come" to "Luna here" maybe? I'm just afraid she now associates "come" with a catch me if you can game??? I'm also afraid she's VERY strong willed and will never have a great recall. She's a doll and does so well with her training but throw in a distraction and everything goes out the window! She is my 4th golden I've had and if I turned my back on ANY of my other dogs and started to walk away they would be like "wait don't leave without me", NOT LUNA . I just feel bad because we always have her on a leash and she enjoys her off leash time so much (maybe a bit too much?). Not to mention my number 1 concern for her safety! Any advice would be appreciated



We can ruin recall by predictably 'ending the fun', by getting upset when they do come, by issuing reprimands for not coming 'fast enough'. Dogs live to be dogs, do dog things, and when they have the opportunity, the freedom to choose, they may choose freedom and play over 'coming' and the predictable 'ending of the fun'. The dog at the dog park who chooses not to return to the owner when called -knows the fun is going to end, the leash is going to go and they are going home. The dog who checks in with his owner, and has a history of being quickly rewarded and then allowed to 'go play' (chase a ball, play with another dog, play tug, whatever it is the dog loves to do) is far more likely to respond when called the next time. 

'Life rewards' are high value to a dog, they are born to run, born to play, to chase, and some enjoy being chased, born to sniff, so we can use those 'life rewards' to our advantage. 

At home, or in an enclosed space while she is off leash, practice calling her to you, do whatever you need to do to encourage her to come to you, get the sit, praise her for it, back up a few steps, call her again, get the sit, reward her for it (more praise and few treats) then release her to go play, toss a ball or a toy. Then increase the distance you call her from, lots of praise for coming, and repeat backing up a few steps and the 'sit', feed her a few high value treats, and then release. Once she is reliably coming and sitting on cue, and understands that more often than not she will be allowed to 'play', practice reaching for her collar, if she backs away, back away from her, 'reset' cuing her to 'come here, and sit' praise her when she does, slowly reach part way, and reward her for not moving, then reach a little more, reward her for staying put. Practice until you can touch her collar, and then work to holding her collar, remembering to reward her, and release her to 'go play'. Teach her that someone reaching for and holding her collar, results in good things happening, it may just prevent a bite from happening. Many dog bites are a result of reaching for/grabbing a dog's collar, the dog has learned to expect 'negative' consequences, (whether it means the 'fun ends', that they going for a bath, or that their owner is angry/upset, and they are some kind of 'trouble' expecting to be punished), or they may be in a state of fear or panic, and lash out at being restrained, we can minimize the risk of it happening by teaching them that having their collar held is a predictor of good things. The goal is to make these things that they may be reluctant to do, easier for them to do it. 

Work on 'proofing' the sit cue, using both the verbal cue, and the hand signal, we not only need to help them generalize the skills we teach them to different environments and locations, we need to teach them that 'sit' means the same thing whether we are standing up, sitting down, have our backs turned, up close or far away, whether we whisper it or shout it, and both on and off leash. 
Be patient, be consistent, let her know what you want her to do and reward her for doing it.


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## LynnC (Nov 14, 2015)

Charliethree said:


> 'Life rewards' are high value to a dog, they are born to run, born to play, to chase, and some enjoy being chased, born to sniff, so we can use those 'life rewards' to our advantage.
> 
> At home, or in an enclosed space while she is off leash, practice calling her to you, do whatever you need to do to encourage her to come to you, get the sit, praise her for it, back up a few steps, call her again, get the sit, reward her for it (more praise and few treats) then release her to go play, toss a ball or a toy. Then increase the distance you call her from, lots of praise for coming, and repeat backing up a few steps and the 'sit', feed her a few high value treats, and then release. Once she is reliably coming and sitting on cue, and understands that more often than not she will be allowed to 'play', practice reaching for her collar, if she backs away, back away from her, 'reset' cuing her to 'come here, and sit' praise her when she does, slowly reach part way, and reward her for not moving, then reach a little more, reward her for staying put. Practice until you can touch her collar, and then work to holding her collar, remembering to reward her, and release her to 'go play'.


Thank you Charliethree for your great advice. We've been working with Luna as you suggested and she is doing great. So great that if she hears me go into the refridg for her hot dogs or cheese she runs and is my shadow, even without the "Luna come". I now have to stealthily get her treats and "surprise" her with the command. Yesterday, she came no problem then I backed up & said "Luna come" (which she had done many times in the few days no problem) but she went and grabbed her tug toy and wanted to play. She definitely LOVES being chased and often we play with her where we chase her and try and get her toy. I'm now wondering maybe thats not the best game for her?? I just stood as a statue and ignored her (while she tried to engage me) and she did finally drop the toy and came and sat. I know she's work in progress but I'm encouraged so far . We'll get a long lead to work outside over the weekend and Obedience class starts Tuesday .


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Sounds like things are going well, good job!! She is bound to make mistakes especially early on, it takes time and repetition for any behavior to become reliable. On a positive note - she did come, even if she took a little longer, and she did sit -we need to be consistent and predictable and reward them for coming when they do come. In that situation, I would use lower value reward praise/Thank you for listening, back up, repeat the cue, when she responds appropriately reward with the higher value treats (and perhaps a game of chase) setting her up to succeed, and providing the opportunity to reinforce a quicker response.

If we can reward a behavior that our dog is less likely to perform ie: come here and sit, or lay down, with something that the dog loves/wants/needs to do, ie: eat their dinner, go for a walk, tug, chase, fetch, it increases the likelihood they will want to, and willingly choose to, repeat the behavior we have asked them to do. 

If she loves the game of chase, I wouldn't 'squish it', I would work to put it on cue 'Wanna play?' or 'Get a toy!' and use it as a random/intermittent reward for responding immediately and quickly, to the recall cue, (or any other cue that you want to become 'habit'), when safe to do so. 

Consider also, that when she has grabbed a toy and brought it to you, she has 'chosen' to come to you and that is what you want her to do. Take advantage of it, even once in a while, ask her to respond to a cue, such as sit (something you want her to do), and then give the 'Wanna play' cue and engage her in play (something she wants to do). Absolutely if 'now' is not a good time, ignoring her/refusing to play, teaches her that you get to choose whether you play or not, and redirecting to something else, letting her know what you want her 'to do' instead, is the way to go.

Keep up the good work! Both of you!


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## LynnC (Nov 14, 2015)

Charliethree said:


> Sounds like things are going well, good job!! She is bound to make mistakes especially early on, it takes time and repetition for any behavior to become reliable. On a positive note - she did come, even if she took a little longer, and she did sit -we need to be consistent and predictable and reward them for coming when they do come. In that situation, I would use lower value reward praise/Thank you for listening, back up, repeat the cue, when she responds appropriately reward with the higher value treats (and perhaps a game of chase) setting her up to succeed, and providing the opportunity to reinforce a quicker response.
> 
> If we can reward a behavior that our dog is less likely to perform ie: come here and sit, or lay down, with something that the dog loves/wants/needs to do, ie: eat their dinner, go for a walk, tug, chase, fetch, it increases the likelihood they will want to, and willingly choose to, repeat the behavior we have asked them to do.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to let you know I am so proud of Luna. We (my DH & myself) have been working everyday with Luna's recall. Yesterday I was in the kitchen & I had no idea where she was so I thought let's give it a try. I stealthily got her hot dogs and loudly called "Luna come" in my excited voice. Well all I heard was her jump off her sofa upstairs (yes HER sofa, we don't allow her on furniture except for HER sofa under the window in our bedroom where she can keep an eye on the neighborhood birds, squirrels, turkeys, deer, bears etc....) she RAN down the stairs & ran to find me & sat practically on my feet   . I praised her like we won the lottery and gave her the hot dog piece & took cheese & more hot dog to give her, JACKPOT for her!!! I am very cautiously optimistic but very encouraged. I just keep reminding myself there are no bad dogs, just bad dog owners. I also had my orientation for her obedience class yesterday & love the instructor. She's different from her other one but I think it'll be good to get a different perspective. Thanks again


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

So wonderful to hear!! Yeah!! for Luna, great job all of you! We need to keep in mind that 'recall' is hard for them, we are often asking them to leave what they want/like/love to do and come to us.
'Recall' should always be rewarded/reinforced, every time it happens, for the life of the dog. It is human nature for us to stop rewarding once we think our dog has 'got it', or should 'know' it, but in order to maintain learned behaviors we need to acknowledge and reinforce them. Good behaviors, appropriate responses to cues, that go unrewarded (are ignored/taken for granted) 'Thank you' only takes a second or two, will diminish in quality and fade in time. 

Keep up the good work!!


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