# DMC & it's potential link to grain free



## Brinkleythegolden (Jun 18, 2012)

There's a couple of very informational groups on Facebook. Check them out.


----------



## cmnieder (Dec 30, 2016)

Thanks, I have! Like I said, its just hard to get a sense of how common this really is.


----------



## Brinkleythegolden (Jun 18, 2012)

From what I understand, it is affecting goldens quite badly. There are breeds that are genetically predisposed, but I'm not sure if goldens are. The whole thing is just scary.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Goldens are not genetically predisposed to DCM, which is why it garnered so much attention when it started showing up.

I would suggest joining this group, and reviewing the files and pinned messages.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1257656451030324/


----------



## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

I have been feeding my dog Orijen which is a grain free dog food. She is in perfect health and all her allergies have gone. We were previously feeding our Golden Royal Canin and that’s when she started having fur loss and skin issues. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Vika the Golden ! said:


> I have been feeding my dog Orijen which is a grain free dog food. She is in perfect health and all her allergies have gone. We were previously feeding our Golden Royal Canin and that’s when she started having fur loss and skin issues.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Have you tested Taurine levels and had an echo?


----------



## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

SheetsSM said:


> Have you tested Taurine levels and had an echo?




Her Taurine levels are normal. Haven’t had an echo though! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Sadly DCM is rarely diagnosed until it's too late. 
As far as how common it is, I look at it this way. Even if it's only 1 in 10,000 ( I made that up, it's not a real estimate) if MY dog is that 1 it's too common for me.
In a breed with so many other health risks that we can't control it blows my mind that people would not control the ones that they can.
I also recommend the FB groups for further information.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Was that whole blood or plasma? What was the number? It would be good to get it added to the database they are collecting.



Vika the Golden ! said:


> Her Taurine levels are normal. Haven’t had an echo though!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

hotel4dogs said:


> Was that whole blood or plasma? What was the number? It would be good to get it added to the database they are collecting.




I really don’t remember. When we visit our vet I’ll probably share them !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Brinkleythegolden (Jun 18, 2012)

From what I've read, I'd still get an echo.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I would still get an echo as well if you've been on a food for a significant amount of time and that has been implicated in this issue. Especially if that whole blood level is below 250 (the minimum I believe but not dangerously low) I feel a dog with a good Whole Blood level should be well above 300 based on what I have read.


----------



## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Vika the Golden ! said:


> I really don’t remember. When we visit our vet I’ll probably share them !
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're not in the US right? I'm curious as to what test your vet actually had accomplished & what lab was used. You're feeding a highly suspect diet though looking at your past posts, you've had several diet changes in the last year--just hope you're not operating on incomplete data & thus having a false sense of reassurance that your current diet is doing no harm.


----------



## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

For more info, see this thread-

https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co...low-taurine-grain-free-foods-dcm-goldens.html


----------



## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

Today I made the switch to a dry food that has grains in it. I was so scared after what I’ve read and my vet agreed with me. Has anyone used it before? Is Purina Pro Plan a trusted dog food brand ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SidtheKid_PITT (Feb 27, 2019)

If you read the FDA announcement carefully, it doesn't point at Grain-Free as being the issue with DCM directly.

Be VERY cautious with what information you take from that facebook group. A majority of them are sponsored by MARS, work for the WSAVA (sponsored by MARS), work for veterinary clinics that receive kickbacks for promoting MARS foods, or have no real background in animal nutruition.

The data used in the FCA's notice mostly came from the WSAVA, which is funded almost 100% by Nestle (Evil) and MARS. MARS makes low quality pet foods, with a few exceptions.


----------



## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

SidtheKid_PITT said:


> If you read the FDA announcement carefully, it doesn't point at Grain-Free as being the issue with DCM directly.
> 
> Be VERY cautious with what information you take from that facebook group. A majority of them are sponsored by MARS, work for the WSAVA (sponsored by MARS), work for veterinary clinics that receive kickbacks for promoting MARS foods, or have no real background in animal nutruition.
> 
> The data used in the FCA's notice mostly came from the WSAVA, which is funded almost 100% by Nestle (Evil) and MARS. MARS makes low quality pet foods, with a few exceptions.


I can't speak to whether this is the case or not regarding who is funding the research. But I can say that there are hundreds of pet parents on the FB group reporting their dogs having died from diet related DCM or have tested positive for it and that their dogs ate the suspect foods. I can''t imagine that they all work or are somehow related to the companies that manufacture the recommended foods. I would love to get input from other members here if anyone does know who is funding the research. Its so very scary.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

The study this came from was UC Davis and a cardiologist (Dr Stern) and this study was not funded by and dog food manufacturers. The FDA picked up on this and got involved at the very end of the study once it started to become known through forums like this and the fb group.


----------



## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

I also believe the Morris Foundation is providing funding too for what its worth. Its scary bc a younger guy who works at my pet food health food store also said that the research is being done by the dog food companies which obviously it is not. People need to get the facts straight and join Dr Stern's FB group of which I participate bc it is where all the info is located. I too was never a fan of "store" bought dog food bc of the history of poor ingredients, fillers, etc and thought I was doing the best by feeding Callie grain free boutique food. It truly is a hard pill to swallow that these are suspect in causing DCM. Especially when I have a degree in nutrition education (for people) and thought I had a handle on what's best. It kills me to think this could have been what happened to my Callie. I will likely feed PPP and possibly something like Farmina and I'd like to consult with a canine nutritionist for appropriate homemade foods to rotate as well when our new baby comes into our life. So frustrating. So heartbreaking.


----------



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I wish someone would explain all this in "for dummies" terms. Everyone keeps saying go to the FB page and read all the documents. I have read everything on the FB page, and the more I read the more confused I get and less I know what is safe.


----------



## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

mylissyk said:


> I wish someone would explain all this in "for dummies" terms. Everyone keeps saying go to the FB page and read all the documents. I have read everything on the FB page, and the more I read the more confused I get and less I know what is safe.


Are you looking on the Taurine Deficiency DCM facebook group? If you read through the posts and check out the charts, they give specifics about suspect foods, why they're a problem, and what is recommended. It is confusing but from what I have read there, the issue is taurine deficiency which is suspected to occur due to a couple of issues: legumes, which are added to grain free foods, block absorption of taurine. Taurine is necessary for heart health among other reasons. Also, boutique food companies are using novel animal protein such as bison, kangaroo, etc that is not tested to determine taurine amounts. The boutique food companies are accused of not having nutritionists on staff to test the food, no food trials, so there's no way of knowing what nutrients are present, what are present in light of how the food is manufactured, etc. The food manufacturers recommended by Dr. Sterns are Purina Pro Plan, Royal Canin, I think Eunkuna, and 2 others I can't remember, bc they have nutritionists on staff and are doing food trials, testing their food. This is certainly only a brief explanation based on my understanding and reading up on the posts in Stern's FB group and here on the forum. If you have been feeding grain free food, it is recommended to have your dog's taurine levels tested and an echocardiogram is the most accurate way of identifying DCM. They say to do this before making a change in diet bc otherwise, a change before testing, could mask DCM bc the taurine levels could go up for instance even though DCM present and you wouldn't know then. Here is a useful blog I read today that provides a good explanation as well: Evidence Update: Grain-free and other ?BEG? Diets Associated with Heart Disease in Dogs | The SkeptVet.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

www.taurinedcm.org Is a fact sheet with some questions and answers. 
Go to the frequently asked question page on the left. Until there is an absolute answer on taurine deficient and diet based dcm, I personally will follow Dr. Stern's recommendations. Dr. Stern's study was not funded by any food company. It was funded by those golden retriever owners looking to save their dogs. It was a small study now (peer reviewed) that brought the problem to light and learning the possibilities of dcm in goldens many golden owners went beyond the study itself and have had their dogs tested and are listing their findings on the golden dcm facebook page with encouragement from Dr. Stern.


----------



## SidtheKid_PITT (Feb 27, 2019)

solinvictus said:


> www.taurinedcm.org Is a fact sheet with some questions and answers.
> Go to the frequently asked question page on the left. Until there is an absolute answer on taurine deficient and diet based dcm, I personally will follow Dr. Stern's recommendations. Dr. Stern's study was not funded by any food company. It was funded by those golden retriever owners looking to save their dogs. It was a small study now (peer reviewed) that brought the problem to light and learning the possibilities of dcm in goldens many golden owners went beyond the study itself and have had their dogs tested and are listing their findings on the golden dcm facebook page with encouragement from Dr. Stern.


This page takes literally the exact advice the WSAVA recommends:

In particular, they recommend that your food company employ at least one full-time nutritionist (which must be a PhD or boarded DVM nutritionist), that all the company’s diets are formulated by nutritionists at these levels of expertise, and that the company not release a formula without testing and trialing that formula using the feed trial protocols established by the AAFCO. In other words, no diet is sold until it proves that it nourishes real dogs, under real conditions, rather than just having the right nutritional math but never having been tested. The company should do a huge amount of quality testing, and every batch coming into the plant should be tested. The company should manufacture the diet themselves, so it can control the ingredients and quality; it should not just send a recipe and a bag label design to a plant that makes food for many companies. And the company should subject its diets to peer-reviewed scientific research, and be able to back up any of its claims with data that is available to the public.​
Those are the WSAVA recommendations, and they're nearly 100% funded by MARS and Nestle (evil companies). I'd like to very clear that Fromm, Champion Foods, and Blue *all* have full-time nutritionists, scientists, whatever you want to call it.

I'm not saying this is the big brands just blowing smoke to scare people (they are), but the communication about this is really bad to try and intentionally scare people.

MARS is the company that makes Iams, literally the worlds worst pet "food". I would never trust them to make a higher quality pet food given how they release Iams, that they make pedigree, and whiskas.

It's also worth noting that if you look at the statistics on the facebook group versus the pending posts, it's actually quite skewed. There were a few pending posts about DCM in dogs eating PPP, yet the admins wouldn't approve the post. You'll also note that most of the brands that have DCM-related occurrences with Goldens tend to be the lower-quality foods (Acana has a higher instance, yet Orijen has almost none, for example). Also noteworthy that the FDA has been sending notices to some manufacturers with relation to DCM, and both Fromm and Champion haven't received any.

Just looked at Dr. Stern's study and the foods they looked at. Don't let it scare you away from feeding your dog foods other than the Big ones - the types that were tested are the ones with the more exotic ingredients for the most part - ones that have mostly fish-related (Orijen Regional Red, Fromm Salmon a La Veg), Diet ones (Acana Diet Pork & Squash Formula, TOTW Venison & Legumes), etc. Every single one tested either has specifically a legume, or a boutique. None of them flagged are hit just for being grain-free other than Nature's variety.


----------



## dkstewart (Aug 22, 2015)

I agree. I’m so confused too.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

dkwirtjes said:


> I agree. I’m so confused too.



To nut shell it for you guys I would say this.... Until the study is finalized from peer review and the findings are published and the final recommendations are put out there for everyone to read, this is how I am explaining to friends and family that are asking me the deal. 



If you don't have to feed a grain free food for a reason like allergies switch to a non-grain free food with out legumes. It is mostly grain free foods that are getting the brunt of this but it is not an exclusive problem to grain free foods. The issue lies in a food that has multiple legumes (peas, chickpeas, garbanzo beans, Lentils and towards the end of the study MAYBE potato and sweet potato) should be avoided and kept to none or maybe 1 or 2 legume ingredients and keep them out of the top 10 ingredients. If your dog is ine that has allergies and you have a food that is working but falls in line with a food with legumes in numbers and high in the list of ingredients you should do 1 or 2 things. 



1 being try a different food that gets away from the heavy amounts of legume. 

or
2, for $75 have your vet do a blood draw and send it out to UC Davis to have the plasma and whole blood Taurine levels checked. and I would do it every 6 months to make sure it doesn't drop below 250 for whole blood level. This to me is the best option if have a food that is working for a reason like allergies or a low carb food for a diabetic dog.


----------



## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

SidtheKid_PITT said:


> This page takes literally the exact advice the WSAVA recommends:
> 
> In particular, they recommend that your food company employ at least one full-time nutritionist (which must be a PhD or boarded DVM nutritionist), that all the company’s diets are formulated by nutritionists at these levels of expertise, and that the company not release a formula without testing and trialing that formula using the feed trial protocols established by the AAFCO. In other words, no diet is sold until it proves that it nourishes real dogs, under real conditions, rather than just having the right nutritional math but never having been tested. The company should do a huge amount of quality testing, and every batch coming into the plant should be tested. The company should manufacture the diet themselves, so it can control the ingredients and quality; it should not just send a recipe and a bag label design to a plant that makes food for many companies. And the company should subject its diets to peer-reviewed scientific research, and be able to back up any of its claims with data that is available to the public.​
> Those are the WSAVA recommendations, and they're nearly 100% funded by MARS and Nestle (evil companies). I'd like to very clear that Fromm, Champion Foods, and Blue *all* have full-time nutritionists, scientists, whatever you want to call it.
> ...


Question, how do you know that there are pending posts about DCM in dogs eating PPP and the admins didn't approve them? Because if they weren't approved, you couldn't see them. Just curious. I hear you, I worry too about some of the brands being recommended bc of quality. I have always done things holistically. But I believe the research and that it is risky to ignore the recommendations. My Callie ate Zignature and Fromm her whole life with some other grain free brands here and there along with Instinct raw grain free. I have wondered if that is what caused her to pass last July. We will never know. I wish there was some more research proving that some of the holistic brands were tested and safe to feed. It will be overwhelming for me to figure out once my next golden baby comes which will hopefully be sometime in the next coming months.


----------



## SidtheKid_PITT (Feb 27, 2019)

debbie624 said:


> Question, how do you know that there are pending posts about DCM in dogs eating PPP and the admins didn't approve them? Because if they weren't approved, you couldn't see them. Just curious. I hear you, I worry too about some of the brands being recommended bc of quality. I have always done things holistically. But I believe the research and that it is risky to ignore the recommendations. My Callie ate Zignature and Fromm her whole life with some other grain free brands here and there along with Instinct raw grain free. I have wondered if that is what caused her to pass last July. We will never know. I wish there was some more research proving that some of the holistic brands were tested and safe to feed. It will be overwhelming for me to figure out once my next golden baby comes which will hopefully be sometime in the next coming months.


I have a family member who works for Facebook... not proud of it, but I was curious so I asked. I've also heard that they've removed admins in the past for letting those kinds of posts through.



Maggie'sVoice said:


> To nut shell it for you guys I would say this.... Until the study is finalized from peer review and the findings are published and the final recommendations are put out there for everyone to read, this is how I am explaining to friends and family that are asking me the deal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd actually challenge your comment on grain-free. If you read the study fully, it says two clear things:


The studies on grain-free are not conclusive - and tests are still underway
The correlation with grain-free diets is grain-free duties WITH legumes (Peas, chickpeas, beans, etc) in the top 10 ingredients. That's the correlation that has been drawn. I look at Orijen and Fromm, both have legumes in the 15-20 range for ingredients, and it's less than 1%.


----------



## SidtheKid_PITT (Feb 27, 2019)

SidtheKid_PITT said:


> I have a family member who works for Facebook... not proud of it, but I was curious so I asked. I've also heard that they've removed admins in the past for letting those kinds of posts through.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't actually edit anymore, but I want to back this up with a quote:

The FDA is investigating a potential dietary link between canine dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) and dogs eating certain grain-free pet foods. *The foods of concern are those containing legumes such as peas or lentils, other legume seeds, or potatoes listed as primary ingredients*. The FDA began investigating this matter after it received a number of reports of DCM in dogs that had been eating these diets for a period of months to years. DCM itself is not considered rare in dogs, but these reports are unusual because the disease occurred in breeds of dogs not typically prone to the disease.

It's the combination of grain-free and legumes *as the primary ingredient.* Quite notably, the legumes that are the primary culprit are peas and lentils, again, as the primary ingredients.


----------



## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

SidtheKid_PITT said:


> I have a family member who works for Facebook... not proud of it, but I was curious so I asked. I've also heard that they've removed admins in the past for letting those kinds of posts through.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just to add that there are dogs who have been fed Fromm who have low taurine levels and DCM. Its documented in the chart in FB group. And some Fromm with normal taurine levels. And surprisingly, Purina has some low taurine levels too even though that is a food that is recommended by the researchers. However the specific Purina food is not identified. Farmina has showed up a couple of times too with moderately low taurine but most of the dogs fed Farmina are shown to have normal taurine levels in this chart. It is so confusing. Its hard to know what to believe. I will still follow the recommendations though and feed foods with no legumes.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

double post sorry.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

SidtheKid_PITT said:


> I have a family member who works for Facebook... not proud of it, but I was curious so I asked. I've also heard that they've removed admins in the past for letting those kinds of posts through.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol what? That is what I said about grain free... the legumes and that it isn't confirmed that it is grain free that if you need to feed it and has the high amounts of legumes then you should test your dogs taurine levels. 

I also said that the study is still under peer review
(which means done but not released yet) and till the findings are released and recommendations made you should test your dog or not feed those types of diets. Never did I say all grain free foods are back and cause DCM which is what you made it seem like I said. I think you really didn't comprehend what I said.



Also your 1% claim is not correct. You have to look for the salt in the list (sodium) and anything AFTER salt can't be higher then 1.3% so if salt is far down the list and there are legumes early in the list... it is certainly MUCH higher then 1%


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

SidtheKid_PITT said:


> I can't actually edit anymore, but I want to back this up with a quote:
> 
> The FDA is investigating a potential dietary link between canine dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) and dogs eating certain grain-free pet foods. *The foods of concern are those containing legumes such as peas or lentils, other legume seeds, or potatoes listed as primary ingredients*. The FDA began investigating this matter after it received a number of reports of DCM in dogs that had been eating these diets for a period of months to years. DCM itself is not considered rare in dogs, but these reports are unusual because the disease occurred in breeds of dogs not typically prone to the disease.
> 
> It's the combination of grain-free and legumes *as the primary ingredient.* Quite notably, the legumes that are the primary culprit are peas and lentils, again, as the primary ingredients.



The issue is in multiple legumes and Peas, lentils, chickpeas are the most common but they have stated legumes as a whole to stay away from and recently also included potato and sweet potato. I would caution saying primary ingredient as well as they have stated keeping legumes out of the top 10 ingredients and most cite that a primary ingredient is a top 5 ingredient, Im feeding Precise Holistic Adult Lg Brd with 1 pea ingredient at the 17th ingredient and had my dogs Whole Blood Taurine tested and was 363. Just keep it 2 or less legumes and out of the top 10.


----------

