# I've got a vicious dog (long)



## Dinsdale (Feb 26, 2008)

Well kinda. Short story, one of my dogs attacked another dog yesterday. I'd appreciate your thoughts. 

I've got a 1 1/2 year old female and 10 month old male goldens. The male has not yet been fixed. We frequently go to a couple of dog parks, and before yesterday have never seen either dog act aggressively towards any other dog. To the contrary, they often seem to get bossed around by the more aggressive/dominant dogs. My 2 dogs play together at home all the time, often quite roughly and with jaws snapping, but all clearly in good spirits. Neither has ever drawn blood from the other.

Buster's (the male) favorite thing is to chase a ball or frisbee. Daisy is more interested in running, chasing birds and rabbits. At times when Buster gets his ball, he will bark with it in his mouth. I always thought it was just a silly thing, "Look at me!" After yesterday, my wife says she wondered if it might be aggressive.

We were the only ones at the dog park early yesterday morning. As we were getting ready to leave, another guy came up with a young, very active golden. That dog played with Clover a little bit, then ran up to Buster a couple of times as Buster was chasing his ball. One time as Buster ran past the dog he did his barking thing with the ball in his mouth. The next time, the dog was nearby as Buster ran back towards me, and Buster ran at the dog barking aggressively, charged into its side bowling it over, and basically straddled it, barking very aggressively. 

My wife and I were right there, and both yelled at him "Buster, no!" I got to them in less than 5 steps and grabbed Buster, pulling him off the other dog, lifting his front legs up off the ground, said "No!" right into his face, and gave him a smack on the side of his snout. He still had the ball in his mouth so I took the ball out and put it away, and put him on his leash. Meanwhile, my wife was petting and comforting the other dog as its owner came up.

We apologized profusely, said it had never happened before _(a common refrain, I'm sure! but true in this instance)_, and told him we were leaving. Later that day we discussed when we would have Buster fixed, thinking it might reduce any aggressive tendencies.

This a.m. my wife went to the dog park. Upon exiting, there was a note on her car, saying the other dog had required 8 staples on its stomach, and asking us to call. Apparently the owner's sister works at the park district (headquarters next to the dog park) and she put the note on the car and spoke to my wife as well.

So there's the situation. Thoughts?

A couple of mine. It seems weird to us that the other dog was hurt so badly, as we didn't notice the injury and my dog never let go of his ball. But I don't see how we could possibly deny respoinsiblility as our dog was very clearly the aggressor and some significant contact occurred. So there is no question but that we have to offer to pay for the vet bill _(tho I am dreading the cost of such emergency care on a Sunday!)_

We had been delaying fixing Buster as a friend wanted to stud him to her bitch. _(Please, I really don't need opinions on the merit of this idea.)_ But her bitch will not go into heat for a month or so, and we don't want to wait if there is a chance that fixing him will reduce any aggression.

Have you ever had a dog that did anything like this before? Did you do anything that you thought successful in preventing recurrences? 

It was SO out of character. We call Buster our "surfer dude" - up until now he just always seems so laid back and happy. 

I've never experienced anything like this before. I don't want to minimize the distress caused the other dog's owners, but it is also quite distressing to have your dog injure another.


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

This seems odd to me that the other dog would be that injured before I paid anything I would want to speak to the vet that saw and treated the dog and want documentation of everything. That is the only suggestion I can think of.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I would definitely want to talk to the vet and have him explain how the injury occurred before you pay for anything. Since Buster had the ball in his mouth clearly it was not a bite.

I agree with going ahead with the neuter now. Consider this, would you really want to breed his temperment into puppies? 

I think what you have is a resource guarding issue, his ball is the resource and he is protecting it from other dogs. It's possible the other dog tried to take the ball from him. Best thing you can do is find a very good trainer to work with you and Buster.


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

I understand your situation, feeling responsible for a bite from your dog is devastating. Firstly, I would check the law in your city/state, the law here states that the user of a dog park does so at their own risk and I believe that includes a bite from a dog, however, it also states that intact males are not permitted to use the park. I would first check that.
It is possible but unlikely the dog was injured subsequent to the dogs fighting, I would discuss that with the owner as well. Reading your post it is obvious that you intend on doing the right thing where many owners would not. If it were my dog in the situation and I felt that I observed the complete fight incident well enough to know that my dog did not cause the wound I would state my case to the owner and as a sign of good will offer to pay half of the bill and see where that goes.
Much of this depends on the law where you live and the regulations dog parks fall under. You sound like you want to do the right thing.......
BTW....Generally speaking intact dogs are usually not the aggressors in dog parks, they are more likey to be targeted by altered males.
hope it works out for everyone.....Good luck
WagonDog


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## Dinsdale (Feb 26, 2008)

Good thought on the training. We worked with an excellent trainer with Clover, and had thought we had good success to this point implementing what we had learned with Buster. But this is different from any issues we had with her.

With respect to Buster's temperment, up until this incident I would have said Buster's temperment was the best of the 4 goldens I have had to date - all of whom have had excellent temperments. But I think just in the last month or so there has been a new aspect to his interactions with Clover and other dogs. Either trying to exert dominance, or just figuring out his lace in the pecking order. 

My wife spoke with the other owner. He said there was a single perfectly round hole, with an adjacent scratch. There is no question but that Buster bowled the dog over hard. My wife wants to think that the dog might have fallen onto a stick or something when that happened. But I can't avoid the fact that we know there were some sharp pointy things in the immediate vicinity - Buster's canines. I don't know if he holds the ball back in his jaws such that a canine might have punctured the dog when he ran into it. Really surprises me, tho, that he and Clover have never drawn blood, as roughly as they play with each other.

The other guy didn't realize Buster had his ball in is mouth. He said "He was barking." My wife said, yeah, he does that with his ball in his mouth. Several folk have seen it and commented on how silly it is. And I took his ball out of his mouth when reacting to the incident. 

As of this a.m., the other owner says he does not want us to compensate his costs. Of course, that may change in the future. We'll see whether Buster gets banned from the dog park, and if so, if his neutering might earn him a second chance. Man, I hope the police don't get involved. Of course, since the guy informed the park district, it is possible they will inform the cops. 

The other owner seems really cool right now - probably cooler than I would be. He admitted that his dog was bugging Buster, trying to get him to play. Of course, that doesn't mean the dog deserves to get bitten for being playful.

Not the way I wanted to start our Monday!


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

Much of this depends on the law in your area. If you have concerns about paying the amount/don't feel you are responsible for it, etc, you need to contact a lawyer in your jurisdiction. Advice on an internet forum is not a substitute for qualified legal advice. 

Also, neutering now will likely reduce some of the issues you are seeing- he will be less of a target of other dogs as mentioned above, and it may just "settle him down" hormonally.


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

Dinsdale said:


> Good thought on the training. We worked with an excellent trainer with Clover, and had thought we had good success to this point implementing what we had learned with Buster. But this is different from any issues we had with her.
> 
> With respect to Buster's temperment, up until this incident I would have said Buster's temperment was the best of the 4 goldens I have had to date - all of whom have had excellent temperments. But I think just in the last month or so there has been a new aspect to his interactions with Clover and other dogs. Either trying to exert dominance, or just figuring out his lace in the pecking order.
> 
> ...


Of all the bad ways this situation could have gone your post is telling that it is being resolved by responsible parties and thats's the best way.
wagondog


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## Noey (Feb 26, 2009)

It's possible it's a claw puncture? That could happen in rough play as well…not a bite.

I know in my state we have a 3 bite law, even if your dog is defending...and they don't give much on it. So check your state laws. Sometimes if they report it...your dog will be required to be under "house arrest" for a few days as well. 

I'd get him fixed, but it was probably a play thing or he mistook the other dog as being a threat toward you guys.

Keep him on the leash and avoid the dog park for a while. Some dogs are just not dog park dogs, but it's highly possible this was an accident?


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

One question I have is the note said the dog required 8 staples. How would a puncture and scratch require 8 staples? It sounds like the owner doesnt hold you responsible and like others I would get a copy of the laws in your area to help cover you in the future. Work on his training because it does sound like it could be resource guarding and the other dog being new he was more protective. Get him neutered to be on the safe side. Good luck.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Your dog just recently hit adolesence and it sounds like he's getting a real "charge" from that testosterone. I'd definitely neuter - both b/c you don't want it to make this aggression problem worse and b/c he doesn't sound like the best dog to be breeding. (Plus, have you don't required clearances, etc?)

At home, I'd tone down some of the rough play -- it's practice fighting. Also watch for signs of guarding - and if he guards something, he simply loses it -- you calmly go over, pick it up and put it away.

Finally, keep in mind that scruff shaking and hitting a dog rarely communicates the message we wish to achieve. No doubt you were shaken up and acting "in the moment" but in general, a down-stay is much more effective communication to a dog, plus it's harder for a dog to stay as aroused while in a down. Which means, if you don't think he would do a down stay at the park, it's a great time to re-visit training!

I'd avoid the dog park as well. No sense setting him up to potentially practice this behavior. He has a dog friend at home. Perhaps he can be reintroduced to a dog park setting once you have the guarding issue under control and he's been neutered.


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## Dinsdale (Feb 26, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> No doubt you were shaken up and acting "in the moment" but in general, a down-stay is much more effective communication to a dog, plus it's harder for a dog to stay as aroused while in a down.


Yeah - the down/stay would have been a better response. Thanks.

Re: the injury - my wife and I both think it is odd, given that we both saw the event so closely. But after not examining both dogs at the park, we are in a very difficult position to argue that our dog did not cause the injury - whether it was a tooth, a claw, a stick,a bite, a graze, etc. And not having seen the injury, it is next to impossible to question the care given - at least not without turning this into a very adversary situation.

And it is a ticklish situation dealing with someone in such a situation - I feel that even asking too many questions might tend to make them defensive or angry. At its best, this is an unfortunate situation. If either or both party wished to be nasty, it could be VERY unpleasant. Which we definitely wish to avoid.

I'll check the dogbite laws. I believe it is a two-bite rule, but I'll check.


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## Dinsdale (Feb 26, 2008)

Dinsdale said:


> I'll check the dogbite laws. I believe it is a two-bite rule, but I'll check.


Did a quick search (wife and I are both lawyers, tho no experience in this area). What I found kinda curious is that the statutes expressly deal only with dogs injuring people, not other dogs. Will have to look further - tho I hope this will not develop into a legal dispute.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I got confused about who Daisy is and Clover? Do you own three goldies: Daisy, Clover, and Buster? 

There are myriad possibilities here, but it doesnt seem like Buster could bite in this scenario if he kept his ball the whole time. Does he have long nails? I agree with Quiz about the testotserone charge, and agree that you should neuter him while there's still time to impact his forming personality. I do wonder if he's going through a bratty phase, and is basically fine if this is the only incident he's had? The other owners are wildcards- not sure if their story hangs together, but enough is true to keep them near, if not in, the driver's seat.


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## Dinsdale (Feb 26, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> I got confused about who Daisy is and Clover? Do you own three goldies: Daisy, Clover, and Buster?


Total spaz on my part re: Daisy. Our previous female golden was named Daisy, as was the bitch they wanted to breed to Buster. Our current dogs are Buster and Clover. 

My kids always hate it when I call them by the wrong names as well! That early senility is a bitch! :


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

I agree that all the rough play at home could be affecting how he interacts with dogs outside. Also, has he had ample opportunity to socialise with other dogs? 

With my two, they play all the time, sometimes roughly, and I sometimes wonder if Izzie (my younger dog) doesn't know any better.

I had an incident with Obi when he was about Buster's age. He had gone to a socalisation class held in a field, and he almost immediately had a tustle with a black lab of about the same age. It lasted seconds, but I was so shocked!! The trainer wasn't bothered at all, and said that they were just checking each other out. It didn't carry on, and they both settled down. Obi has been castrated now, but it wasn't due to this incident.

It sounds to me like Buster is feeling like a grown up now, starting to assert his authority when he can. I would avoid playing with the ball if there are any other dogs in the vicinity for now, just to make sure he doesn't react the same way again. I would also work at his socialisation if it is needed.

I wouldn't rush to get him neutered, and I wouldn't say it was necessarily an aggression thing, probably more a teenage dog 'moment'. If you didn't see him bite, then the chances are he didn't, more likely the wound was caused by a claw or stick or something, very unfortunate none the less!

I'd get him assessed by a reputable trainer before any decisions are made. If it is a teenage thing, they tend to get over themselves fairly quickly, and become more settled. If the trainer (get one you trust or by recommendation!) suggests it would be beneficial to neuter, then that's the time to get him done.

Good luck, Im sorry this happened!!


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## Dinsdale (Feb 26, 2008)

We were planning on neutering anyway. Weren't personally interested in breeding him, only acceeded to the strong desire of a friendly neighbor. 

Were not in a HUGE hurry to get him neutered as early as possible, tho, as we had heard/read several times that very early neutering might affect the growth/appearance of males.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hi -- I have to commend you -- even though this is a weird situation you seem to be handling it with a level head and a great dose of common sense. I am surprised the other dog's owner is not asking you for the full amount of the vet bill. 
And sorry, I know you said you didn't want to hear it but I can't help it. Surely you aren't thinking of using a 10-12 month old male for stud. There's so much wrong with that I can't even really begin. I'm sure you've heard it before and know better. If nothing else, this incident at the dog park might give you a good excuse to use to get your pushy neighbors off your back.
Best of luck.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

If you do end up making some payment on the veterinary bills, don't forget to check with your homeowner's liability policy to see if a part (after deductible) is covered. While it happened at a dog park, and not at home, the policy may cover it anyway since your "property" (the dog) allegedly injured other "property" (the other dog).


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