# Thanks for the positive rep



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

At first, I recognized a genuine desire to work with your dog. However, at this point, I dont think the non-dog related analysis of this forum either here or in the first thread is constructive for you, your dog Jojo, or anyone else. You are a new guest, addressing an established community of dedicated people; company manners, good manners go a longer way in establishing a rapport than taking a swings at one and all. Maybe spend some significant time with the ebb and flow, give and take of the various threads before jumping to conclusions about what people are like. You did mention wanting to beat your dog, make sexist remarks, and look for the worst in some pretty reasonable replies by nice members along with your request for help. You thanked me for my supportive reply in your thread- and I do credit you for seeking out help. However, your editorial comments are inflammatory at best and not really a nice way to say hello to a new group.



> She growled and showed her teeth again. So, I grabbed her by the collar and began to pull her to the middle of the floor to flip her over. As I got her on her side, she snapped out and bit me on the hand. Her teeth caught my index finger knuckle on either side and broke the skin. I held her down for 2 minutes until she calmed down. I released her and told her to get into her crate where I locked her in. Here's my problem. Where I come from, the dog would already be destroyed the old fashioned way. However, that isn't my style nor is legal to discharge firearms within town limits. But, my wife and I are trying to have kids and now I can't trust her. I love my dog and she's made our lives richer, but I'm not a big compromiser when it comes to women and children. It's all I can do to NOT beat the dog within an inch of her life but I've remained calm throughout. I'm rational and thoughtful. But, the "what if she bites my kid or someone else" question is running through my mind.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Hey...

I just read the entire other thread about your problem, and then I reread it because I think a lot of the negativity over there had to do with posts getting skimmed rather than carefully read. Some tempers flared up all around and some, shall we say, less than useful things got said. You've got a lot of passionate dog lovers on here who know a lot, and while I rarely find myself agreeing 100% even with the forum's highly experienced breeders, trainers, and owners, I do usually find something rather useful in what they have to say.

And a lot of useful things did get said, particularly early on in the thread, so rather than passing judgment on anybody, I'll just add my $0.02 as somebody who used to use the alpha roll as a training tool and now does not.

Particularly with puppies, you can place them into a submissive position to help enforce your status as dominant. It does work. Older dogs do safely pin _puppies_ when they get out of control and the body language and sound the older dog is using doesn't get through to the puppy. It's one of the ways they teach puppies how to understand the language of interaction. If the adult dog is well-socialized, the actual pinning would happen very rarely, if at all, since most of the teaching takes place through growling, showing teeth, or lunging (when the dog snaps at the puppy but intentionally doesn't make contact).

Unfortunately, making your pup see you as dominant does not actually make the dog obey you, so the usefulness of that is limited, particularly if the roll is used as punishment. You can do it as part of your handling of the puppy when it's small, but doing it suddenly or holding the neck hard does more to frighten the dog than to communicate your status. It doesn't even work that well as a negative stimulus (for biting, for example), since the dog's probably at least a little afraid during the roll and unlikely to be able to make strong associations. By the time you actually have the dog on its back, the original behavior has passed and she's focused on a scary confrontation with you.

Adult dogs communicate pack status mostly with body language and some with sound, and in a confrontation, when they bite the neck, they're usually there to do damage, not to make a point. When you grab the neck or force the dog down in a situation where you're communicating any kind of anger with your voice, body language, or smell, you may trigger anxiety or defensiveness in the dog. An already anxious dog, when grabbed or rolled, will become exponentially more anxious. I was myself once bitten by a friend's Golden in exactly that kind of situation.

Having read your original story carefully, I think Jo Jo was anxiously, not dominantly, defending her food, and when you grabbed her, she was afraid and defended herself. Did she need to? No. But she was already, in her head, in a scary confrontation over the food, and she may have interpreted the grab as an attempt to hurt her, even though it obviously wasn't.

I wasn't there, but based on what you've said, my guess is that Jo Jo's problem has very little to do with dominance and a whole lot to do with insecurity. When you challenge an insecure dog, they go into a defensive state, which is dangerous. When you confront her physically, you raise the stakes of the situation, which is leading to more growling and now a bite. Some dogs are just bratty, and confronting them to establish yourself as a leader might be helpful. A dog who shows her teeth when you try to pet her is wound really tight. There's no reason related to dominance that she would behave like that. If she's fearful, nervous, and wound up, that's _exactly_ what she would do.

I think the solution here will be to find ways to drain that nervous energy from situations. Physical correction or confrontation, at this point, will probably just add that bad kind of energy and make everything worse. I would start with the food aggression and create a controlled environment to practice it. First, go give her a ton of exercise before any practice sessions. A tired dog has a hard time getting as wound up as a well-rested one.

Second, feed her meals a small handful at a time from your own hand. If she growls or otherwise exhibits intolerable behavior, stop feeding for a minute and then try again. Nice behavior opens the hand, growling closes the hand and raises it up above her head, out of reach. During meals, ask her periodically for a sit, a lie down, or whatever little trick you like and reward her with the next handful.

If she takes to this well for a few meals, which she should, let other family members feed her this way. Take turns. I wouldn't let a child do this at first, in case she gets aggressive, but once she has the hang of it, it's important to let the kids in her life play this role. If it's at all feasible, all of her meals should happen this way for a while. Once she calms down, you can start dropping the food a handful at a time into the bowl and eventually try to get back to regular feeding. This is a great way to establish your leadership and make her calmer around her food, and it doesn't involve the kind of confrontation that might trigger that self-defensive state.

Take all physical punishments and threatening movements out of her training and correction. You don't want to be grabbing her collar with a sudden movement or otherwise engaging in behavior that's going to trigger her anxiety reactions. Remember, you're not avoiding this because she's dominating you. You're avoiding it because the dog has gotten it into her head that she's in danger of a fight, potentially to the death, with a bigger dog and she has to defend her physical safety. You need to teach her she's wrong, and the only way to do that is with low-key, non-physical techniques.

Keep your voice quiet and low when you do need to chastise. Yelling at all will add nervousness but not communicate any more clearly than a quiet, firm voice.

A behaviorist is a great idea, but I'd run the other way if one says you need to be rougher on the dog. A good behaviorist will see that she's anxious and will help you develop techniques that work for your family.

When you do post again, realize that lots of the people on the forum rescue dogs who have been beaten by bad owners, dumped in the pound at the first sign of trouble, and otherwise horribly treated. For them, a person beating a dog is a grim reality, so it sets off lots of emotions. Having read your posts, I find it highly unlikely that you would strike your dog in anger or otherwise hurt her to take out your own emotions. I know when I was bitten that I had to go sit in the other room and cool off, so I sympathize with the anger part of it. Getting angry doesn't make you a bad person; your actions do, and your action was to try to correct the dog's behavior in the best way you knew how. I just think it's the wrong technique for this dog.

Good luck, and please keep us posted.


----------



## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Good advice Tippykakak!!


----------



## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Thanks tippy and others for kind advice.

I too think saying things like this guy shouldn't have kids and so forth are REALLY out of line!!! 

We are all passionate here about dogs and we can get carried away. 

I wish you the best with your pup and your journey to parenthood... I'm just weeks away from parenthood myself! And I have several wonderful dogs who I am thrilled to say will help me raise my son. 

I agree she is currently a danger. Dogs and kids both need constant supervision, no matter if they have issues or not, IMO. 

I'd definitely take TK's advice. Check out some behaviorists, and focus on the good things she does, too!


----------



## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Tippy, what an awesome post. I hope the OP finds your advice helpful. 

To the OP: I think threads like these are a little unnecessary (you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar!), but I do understand your frustration. You did end up getting attacked quite a bit in your last thread, and I think several of the responses were inappropriate. That being said, I really hope you can find a behaviorist that will assist you with your dog, and I wish you and Jojo many, many happy years together. Best of luck!


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tippy's advice is great. I hope the OP finds it useful, as well.

Honestly, the first 8 responses in the original thread were all positive and helpful. The following 5 from the OP were confrontational and defensive, and any "negative" postings from forum members were reacting to the tone of those. Even still, I thought a lot of restraint was practiced, given how emotionally vested people become in the care and well being of any dog mentioned here. 

Bottom line is that every single one of them care about the outcome for that dog.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am not sure if JoJo has had her thyroid tested or if you might be interested in this?


This study of dogs who bite their owners is open to the whole country, not just people living near Boston. They will look for thyroid links, health problems, and give behavoir advice. 
Hi, 

I work at the Tufts Animal Behavior Clinic with Dr. Nicholas Dodman. 
We are conducting a study here examining the link between 
hypothyroidism and owner-directed aggression in dogs. We thought we 
would contact your group. More information on the study can be found 
below. 

Thanks, 
Dr. Kathryn Wrubel 
http://www.tufts. edu/vet/behavior / 

PLEASE CROSS-POST TO OTHER CANINE LISTS: 

From Nicole Cottam, M.S. 
Behaviour Department, Tufts University Cummings School of Veterinary 
Medicine 

We still need dogs for our double blind study looking at the effect 
of thyroid on OWNER DIRECTED aggression. To be included in the study 
dogs cannot already be on thyroid replacement therapy, and they must 
show owner directed aggression - growl, lip lift, snap or bite at 
least once a day. *All costs for testing and treatment will be 
covered by the research grant, and can be co-coordinated through your 
own veterinarian.* Dogs must live in the United States of America, 
however. To be included in the study the dog must meet our criteria 
for owner directed aggression and have been living in the home for at 
least 6 months.


----------



## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

TippyK must have been a dog behaviorist in a previous life .....very observant and eloquent in his descriptions. 

The internet, with all its volumes of information to share, is NOT an easy path for communication between people. We lose the things that Tippy mentioned above, all the subtleties of body language, expression, and tone, normally used in successful communication. 'Taint easy and we react, at times way more than we would face to face.


----------



## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

<genuinely sincere>

I find this forum to be a wealth of information and a place of *MASSIVE *support. The members are friendly and so incredibly helpful. Many are an inspiration and I feel, by reading their experiences, make me a better dog owner. I personally have learned so much here. It is humbling. While I don't agree with everything that's written, I have the utmost respect for each point of view.

Yesterday, when I happened across the thread which is the topic of this thread I immediately went into defensive mode because the people who I have so much respect for were being attacked and belittled when all they were doing was trying to help in the best way they knew how. I just couldn't stand it - people are so freakin' NICE and tolerant here, seriously! I felt like I needed to say something to the OP who I felt was being extremely rude for no reason whatsoever. I still feel that way given his frustration or not.

I stand by what I said. It wasn't horrible nor insulting (or at least not nearly as insulting as some of the OP's own words) - it was true.

</genuinely sincere>


----------



## Merlins mom (Jun 20, 2007)

tippykayak, that was one of the most well written, informative posts I've ever seen on here. Thanks!


----------



## brockway (Dec 11, 2008)

Tippykayak,
Absolutely spot on! I'm glad you took time to read the posts instead of becoming defensive. I knew I screwed up and I was looking for the next step. I've already been in contact with a behaviorist who thought it significant that JoJo was bred to be a hunting dog. Both her parents are champion hunters. Her behavior has changed over the last few days just before this incident happened. She said the thyroid thing probably isn't the issue because that doesn't have a catylyst. The dog would just get suddenly aggressive with a thyroid issue. But, her behavior is very abnormal for her. 

I really appreciate your post. I think it's thoughtful and very helpful. I understand that people have whatever views they have but I think some jumped the gun and were very rude to me. However, I shouldn't have been rude back and that's my bad. It's an easy thing to do in an anonymous forum. Passion is great but misdirected passion can be easily be viewed as inappropriate. Add a dash of temper from a crazy experience 2 minutes earlier and it's a recipe for some sparks. 

Thanks again.


----------



## brockway (Dec 11, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Tippy's advice is great. I hope the OP finds it useful, as well.
> 
> Honestly, the first 8 responses in the original thread were all positive and helpful. The following 5 from the OP were confrontational and defensive, and any "negative" postings from forum members were reacting to the tone of those. Even still, I thought a lot of restraint was practiced, given how emotionally vested people become in the care and well being of any dog mentioned here.
> 
> Bottom line is that every single one of them care about the outcome for that dog.


Actually, the first 5 all assumed I hit my dog and I think whenever you assume something about someone, it's rude. I don't think they thought they were rude and they kinda weren't but I'm offended by the assumption of violence. It takes on the tone of "Clearly, YOU are the problem because dogs can do no wrong." without anyone knowing me. 

Then Jersey'sMom came in swinging before I could even check the board. Everyone has a name for dominating a dog (Alpha Roll), there are countless books and trainers using it, and The Dog Whisperer does it, yet the comments seemed to be reflecting a feeling that I am a brute and abuse my dog.

Can you folks honestly say you wouldn't get your fur up if I or someone else accused you of abusing your dogs? TippyKayak got mad at her dog. Does that make her abusive? 

I'm sure you guys (Except Jersey'sMom) didn't mean any harm and didn't really read the posts. That's ok, I'm over it and Jo is getting the training she needs


----------



## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

You were doing pretty good there buddy until that last sentence about Julie....tsk, tsk, tsk


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

AndyFarmer said:


> You were doing pretty good there buddy until that last sentence about Julie....tsk, tsk, tsk


Very true. Julie is a proven around here.... she's well educated, caring, and knowledgeable about dogs. I think you'll find a wonderful community here of people that truly care for one another and LOVE goldens.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Can we please talk about the dog? Yes, he was rude; yes, some people jumped to conclusions about his actions or attitudes; yes, some truly awful stuff got said. A lot of what was written can be interpreted in multiple ways depending on tone, and that's a huge part of the problem. Do we really need to parse out exactly who was right or wrong at any given moment? 

There is a dog acting very aggressively in a house with children. Let's solve that problem. Brockway, whatever his forum manners, is looking to solve the issue and asking for help. I'm sure he'll try to be more polite as he goes.

Brockway, I'm a guy. No worries about the misapplied pronouns. Are you trying the feeding exercise? Are you seeing any benefit by making training calmer and less confrontational?


----------



## FranH (May 8, 2005)

Let's keep it positive and give Brockway the best suggestions for the situation. There are lots of informative and wonderful trainers here


----------



## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

You know, I had no intention of posting in this thread. Despite the continued hostility toward myself and others from the last thread, I was hoping this could allow people you were willing to listen to to give you the advice that you are looking for. But in light of the fact that 2 days later you still feel the need to call me out and insult me by name, it appears this needs to be resolved. So I will respond:

I absolutely never suggested you were a brute who abused your dog. I never accused you of hitting your dog. And while we're speaking about "actually reading the posts," my statement was that "THOUGHTS of shotguns or beating my dog...." had never crossed my mind. (Emphasis added). Again, no implication that you did so, only making an attempt to illustrate that as much as you tried to remain calm throughout the ordeal that the emotion you were feeling was leaking through, and was likely obvious to your dog. I then said that I would assume it was anger in the heat of the moment and drop it. I would greatly appreciate it if you could tell me where exactly in my post I accused you of being violent or abusive (I did use the term aggressive, and I apologize if that's where there's a misunderstanding, but aggressive is not, to me or in the general lexicon of this forum, a synonym for either of those terms). I didn't swing first, but I have no intention of sitting by while (in your second post) you rip apart the very people, myself included, who jumped in to offer you help. I'm also curious to know how I came out swinging before you could check the board when you clearly had the time to read and respond to every post I typed. When it comes down to it, you certainly did not have to follow any of our advice, but accepting it gracefully nonetheless and focusing on the posts you found helpful (without the insults tossed at those you didn't) would have been the better alternative.

I really have no interest in continuing to argue with you. So I'll make you a deal. I will never offer you advice on any subject ever again. Now if you'll kindly stop slamming me when you think my back is turned, I'm going to get on with my evening. Good luck with Jojo. I sincerely hope it all works out for you both.

Julie and Jersey


----------



## Waggily Tail (Jan 11, 2009)

I am new here so don't even know if I'm doing this right. But this thread has prompted my 1st post. Let's see if it works!

I am Maggie's Mom, & it has been 14 yrs since my last puppy. Last weekend, I put my 14 yr old Lab, Coal, to sleep because his hind legs just couldn't handle any more. Back in the day, the trend was "obedience training" to make the dog do what you wanted. Bless his heart, Coal was a wonderful friend despite our lack of knowlege. 

We knew we always wanted a dog in our lives so we brought Maggie home in May, knowing that Coal's time with us was limited. Puppyhood truly tests our strength as much as children do. No wonder there are so many pound puppies. It's been hard work & a true commitment. I can remember Maggie biting me & drawing blood. I called my vet, who has been in practice for more than 2 decades. He said to grab her by the ears, shake her head, and say "Noooooo". I tried this a couple of times & it worked, but it just didn't feel right. I did a search on line & found a wonderful organization close by that gave me guidance until Maggie was old enough to attend their classes. 

Brock, thanks for listening to the folks who have replied to you. They have your pup & you in their best interests. Strategies in learning have changed. Positively based training is the way to go, IMHO. Developing a partnership with your dog so she wants to be your bud & please you will foster a relationship that will last both your lifetimes.

Where do you live? You don't want the Caeser Method. Please look for the Pat Miller totally positive approach.


----------



## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

That totally worked! Good to hear from you, glad you joined us :wave:


----------



## Waggily Tail (Jan 11, 2009)

And I'm glad to have found this site. Thanks Jo Ellen for the welome. There's so much at stake here. Making the commitment to have a pup is huge, esp as we get older. Coal seemed so much easier to grow with, but I was 14 yrs younger then! 

With Maggie, we pretty much ignore her bad behaviors. She bites at us, we do a loud "yip" and turn away. She jumps on us, we say "off" and turn away. She grabs an illegal item like a slipper or whatever and prances off. We once chased her, and she would zig while we zagged. She was faster than us. Now, we say "wait", something we've been working on for a while. She does this 99% of the time so we can take it from her without a struggle, sometimes exchanging it with a treat.

Bottom line, we're learning this partnership relationship, and it's really paying off. Rather than struggling for dominance, we're communicating with Maggie, and it's really paying off. 

What a way to go!


----------



## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Waggily Tail said:


> Rather than struggling for dominance, we're communicating with Maggie, and it's really paying off.


Ahhhh one of my favorite lines...its ALL about communication! Good job!


----------



## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Partnership relationship ... I know exactly what you mean.


----------



## Waggily Tail (Jan 11, 2009)

AndyFarmer, know exactly what you mean. Took a while for this human to catch on. But we keep learning with every class. Please forgive us that we take so long...

Jo Ellen, I want Maggie in that boat of yours. How do I do that?


----------



## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Kimm did that for me, she did a great job, it's totally Daisy. I'll PM her and send her your way!


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

As I said in another post: It more about how the dog views us. 

"It's all I can do not to beat her" sounded like barely controlled, white knuckled rage to me. Those were your words not mine. Perhaps a little less revelation of your feelings and sticking just to the problem will bring a better response...one that you want to hear.

If A puppy views HIS/HER owner as a danger, then self-protection will be first on his/her mind. That includes biting. If the dog is very submissive, then it will be made evident by tail tucking and cowering.

A dog who is confident and trusts it's owner will be happy, playful and willing to learn manners and good behavior.

Our dogs behave the way they do because of how they view us. Their view of us is a complete reflection of how we treat them.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I'd like you to go back and read your second post in your original thread.

You were quite hostile to the people who were offering you help.


----------

