# Grain-free reduces the risk of bloat?



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I've heard of dogs on raw who were given unrestricted access to kibble and bloated, but I wouldn't say that was "caused" by the grain.

There's also some evidence that partially moistened kibble increases risk and that wet food is less risky than dry food.

But I haven't seen any hard evidence at all that says that grains themselves are a contributing factor.


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## pokey (Sep 4, 2009)

Wait, I was under the impression that adding water to the kibble reduced the chance of bloat, not increased it. Which is it?


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I'e heard it both ways. The great dane lady has some valuable info on bloat.http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/bloat_and_torsion_is_nutrition_a_factor.htm Also, there is an accupressure point to massage if you suspect bloat .... not to be used instead of seeking medical help, but as a help (cure) until you can get there.
http://www.bluefrontiers.us/bloat_accupress.htmlhttp://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/bloat_and_torsion_is_nutrition_a_factor.htm


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

LifeOfRiley said:


> I'd love to hear some opinions on this.
> 
> There seems to be somewhat of a consensus out there that feeding a grain-free food is one of the most important things you can do to prevent bloat.
> It's one of the main reasons I went grain-free with Riley in the first place, and it's one of things that worries me about going back to a traditional food.
> ...


I've heard of a lot of potential reasons, but never heard of it being because of gain.

As far as water in the food, it's only a SUSPECTED cause if their is citric acid in the food, and even then nothing has been proven.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

According to one fairly well known study, adding water to the kibble increases the chance of bloat if the kibble contains citric acid.
The reason some people believe it might reduce the risk of bloat is that it slows down some of the voracious eaters, but that's never really been proven.





pokey said:


> Wait, I was under the impression that adding water to the kibble reduced the chance of bloat, not increased it. Which is it?


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

I do feed my dogs primarily grain-free food - not because worry of bloat, but because many of them are lower in carbohydrate percentages due to increased protein and fat percentages.

I have heard the theory that grains, such as rice, do expand as they go through the digestive system and could contribute to bloat. It may be one of several factors, IMO.

I only feed kibble at breakfast and I do add half a cup of warm water to the bowl - believing that it aids the digestive system in breaking down all the protein.

I'd say being careful about the amount of exercise before and after feeding is also an important point.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

oops.. here's the accupressure site....http://www.bluefrontiers.us/bloat_accupress.html


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I feed kibble. I put water on it. And I elevate my food bowls. None of my own dogs have ever bloated. 
Everything that I do is what used to be done to prevent bloat. Now, it's all the cause of bloat. I figure if I just don't tell my dogs that now the way they eat will cause bloat, they won't.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Everytime I am tempted to change my dogs food when I read something new I think of what happened last time (allergic reaction) and I stay with the good food they are doing great on.

I think adding water to kibble= greater chance of bloat makes sense. It expands in the stomach . Or eating and then drinking alot of water. I limit how much the boys can drink when I hear them out there gulping. Especially after eating or exercise. NO water (or very little) or food after exercise!

I also feed from elevated bowls. Like Laura, that supposedly used to prevent bloat and megaesophagus which Max died from.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

I've never heard the grains can cause bloat theory. In all honesty almost everything I've heard that causes bloat, I've heard the same thing prevents bloat on another website or from someone else. It's all very confusing. I think the best thing we can do is feed whatever our dogs do best on, keep them from scarfing and inhaling their food too quickly, and keep them from doing any crazy activity right after... and then just hope for the best.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

In Daisy's case, food of any kind was never an issue. It was water that caused her to bloat.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

The current reasoning NOT to add water to food is that it "dilutes the gastric juices that aid in digestion".


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## GR_Princess (May 12, 2009)

I think this is one of the best sites with real studies done on bloats.. 

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/epi/bloat.htm


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

missmarstar said:


> I've never heard the grains can cause bloat theory. In all honesty almost everything I've heard that causes bloat, I've heard the same thing prevents bloat on another website or from someone else. It's all very confusing. I think the best thing we can do is feed whatever our dogs do best on, keep them from scarfing and inhaling their food too quickly, and keep them from doing any crazy activity right after... and then just hope for the best.


Supposedly it's because grain ferments in the stomach and causes too much gas. I don't know... Riley seems to have more gas on grain-free foods than he did on "traditional", so it doesn't make much sense to me.

There's so much conflicting information out there, it's enough to drive ya nuts. And I think that's really what it comes down to -- just using common sense and hoping for the best.

A lot of good links, here. Looks like I have some reading to do.


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> I feed kibble. I put water on it. And I elevate my food bowls. None of my own dogs have ever bloated.
> Everything that I do is what used to be done to prevent bloat. Now, it's all the cause of bloat. I figure if I just don't tell my dogs that now the way they eat will cause bloat, they won't.


I was just reading today in a Golden Retriever magazine about bloat. They should be fed a mixture of dry & canned food from bowls placed on the floor, not elevated.

These kinds of articles are like the SIDS information. It changes from generation to generation. It might makes sense if you're young and new to raising children (or dogs) but if you've been around for awhile (as I have), you see the information change again and again, it makes you question all this new research by experts.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Has anyone here had a raw fed Golden get bloat?

I've never had or even known (outside of the internet) ANY Golden to get bloat, for any reason.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Well when my Beau had bloat he had not eaten all day. His was caused by stress and drinking water. He was fed grain free and a low elevated bowl. My vet says most cases he has seen of bloat are from stress and drinking in water fast inhaling air at the same time as drinking.


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

I have never had a dog have bloat (knock on wood!!!), and have fed grain based and (currently) grain free diets. I have added water and not to both (only noticing that the grain free does not swell as much). I have read that there is a genetic predisposition--if it happens to a parent it may in puppies, but not always. Sometimes I think these things are "luck of the draw". Regardless of how many good things you do, they might happen. Some dogs get fed just awful diets and never get it. 
One of the reasons I changed Casey to Origen (grain free) was gas--he could clear a room at a young age! The Origen fixed that quickly. I know that some dogs react to the type of protein too, so sometimes you have to try different things to see what works. An interesting topic!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't worry about food at all, whether water is added or not. I only worry about water.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I think it's genetic. This would explain why, say, nearly 1/4th of GSDs may experience bloat in their lifetimes, while no Whippet ever will. JMO.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't think Daisy's bloat is genetic. Otherwise, she would have shown a tendency that way before and since. Don't you think? I think bloat is too complicated to try to understand in terms of all this or all that. Definitely I think there can be a genetic predisposition in some breeds and some dogs, but I don't think it's always genetic. Sometimes it's just a freaky set of circumstances that set the wheels in motion.


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## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

Abby's bloat was related to water, too. I am ever vigilant. And she has none of the indicators of bloat, she is small, was fed the Honest Kitchen food (grain free) and is not broad chested. Go figure.

She has had her stomach tacked but I still watch carefully.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

The genetic component may simply be that bloat requires a particular abdominal shape in order to happen. So, if you don't have the genes for the necessary conditions, you can't get it. Hence, no Whippets.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

So from what I'm reading here, from those of you who have been through it _and_ those who haven't, grain really doesn't seem to be a factor. That's good - at least now maybe I won't be totally paranoid about switching foods. 

It does seem like water is a big factor, though. Luckily, both my guys are very dainty drinkers and don't usually take a lot of it in at one time. I always listen, though, and if I hear one of them drinking a little too much, I interrupt them. 
We have strict activity rules before and after meals. And I still hand feed Riley, so he can't inhale his food.
I don't use raised feeders, so that could be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the trend. lol.
And I try to avoid stress, especially since it can really exacerbate Gunner's condition.

If the grain isn't a factor, it seems like I'm doing just about everything I can. The rest, I think, comes down to a lot of this: :crossfing 
Thank you for all the input!


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

I feed dry moistened slightly by some 'topping' and elevated bowls. No brisk exercise 1/2-1 hour before and 1-2 hours afterward.
:crossfing
So far, so good 

Something I always do with new dry kibbles...I always take 2 or 3 and drop them in a bowl of water for 3-4 hours to see how much they swell when soaked.

Hmmm, would they swell more or less in water as opposed to Citric acid?


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

moverking said:


> I feed dry moistened slightly by some 'topping' and elevated bowls. No brisk exercise 1/2-1 hour before and 1-2 hours afterward.
> :crossfing
> So far, so good
> 
> ...


I thought doing that was a fun experiment when I first heard about it. My results tended to be: the higher the carb level, the more the kibble swelled.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Interesting.
Okay, so what carbohydrate percentage and/or how much swelling of the food does it take to be considered risky?


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

LifeOfRiley said:


> Interesting.
> Okay, so what carbohydrate percentage and/or how much swelling of the food does it take to be considered risky?


I don't believe there is any general consensus on whether or not the amount of swelling of a specific kibble contributes to the risk of bloat. 

Personally, I don't see any benefits to a general daily diet containing more than 40% carbs; so I don't feed those foods.

I'm pasting in a portion from the dog food advisor site that outlines how to figure the % of carbohydrates in dry kibble.

How to Quickly Calculate the
Carbohydrate Content of Any Dog Food

Basically, the bulk of all dog foods consist of four major nutrients…

* Proteins
* Fats
* Carbohydrates
* Moisture (water)

In addition, all these products include something called ash. Ash is the non-combustible mineral residue that’s left over after burning away all the protein, fats and carbohydrates.

Ash content usually measures about five to eight percent of each finished product1 . So, I routinely allow about 8 percent as a benchmark for this important variable.

Together, the protein, fat, ash, carbohydrate and water content must account for roughly 100 percent of the total pre-cooking weight of any dog food.

OK. Now, some simple math…

Subtract the reported protein, fat, water and ash percentages from the 100 percent total. And you’ll get a fairly good idea of the carbohydrate content in that dog food.

By the way, if you’re wondering why I’m ignoring the fiber content… it’s because fiber is actually a carbohydrate. So, its percentage is automatically included in your carbohydrate calculations.


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

Good info, MyBentley! 
Thinking about it more...water is hypotonic and gastric acid would be far more hypertonic, greatly affecting the amount absorbed by the kibble....gonna have to set up a third experiment now, lol.

If a piece of kibble *doubles* in size, I'd really worry about distention and increasing the risk of bloat.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Whippets and Salukis never bloat. But Borzoi and Greyhounds (same build) do pretty often. But only *certain lines*

It is a proven fact that dogs with a first degree relative who bloated are at a much increased risk.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

and over 50% of great danes bloat.
AND in all the studies they've done, they have no conclusive answers. NONE. Lots of conjecture, anecdotal evidence, etc. but nothing conclusive.
BTW, the "deep chested" is supposedly "deep chested" for that particular breed, not the breed itself. So for example, my Toby has an unusually deep chest and an unusually high tuck FOR A GOLDEN, thus putting him at increased risk for bloat. It's why overweight dogs are less likely to bloat.
So they claim.


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## pokey (Sep 4, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> It's why overweight dogs are less likely to bloat. So they claim.


Great, you just gave Piper a reason to eat more food, to keep herself from bloating!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Thanks for the info, MyBentley.




moverking said:


> Thinking about it more...water is hypotonic and gastric acid would be far more hypertonic, greatly affecting the amount absorbed by the kibble....gonna have to set up a third experiment now, lol.
> 
> If a piece of kibble *doubles* in size, I'd really worry about distention and increasing the risk of bloat.


Chemistry - Ack! Though I would think that stomach acid _would_ have a greatly different effect on kibble than plain water would. That only makes sense. 
I'll still soak a couple pieces of the Innova, though, when we get it, just to see what happens. If it doubles, that explosion you hear will be my head. lol.

God, when did I become such a neurotic dog owner? Sometimes I really miss the days when I didn't know about this stuff, opened a bag of food, fed the dogs and that was that. 



pokey said:


> Great, you just gave Piper a reason to eat more food, to keep herself from bloating!


LOL - yeah, but be careful, because eating more food is thought to increase risk, too. Ya can't win! :


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

LifeOfRiley said:


> Thanks for the info, MyBentley.
> Chemistry - Ack! Though I would think that stomach acid _would_ have a greatly different effect on kibble than plain water would. That only makes sense.
> I'll still soak a couple pieces of the Innova, though, when we get it, just to see what happens. *If it doubles, that explosion you hear will be my head. lol.*
> 
> God, when did I become such a neurotic dog owner? Sometimes I really miss the days when I didn't know about this stuff, opened a bag of food, fed the dogs and that was that.


Hey, I know what you mean, earlier this year, I obsessed over getting the girls off Canidae, not for any other reason than their transfer to Diamond's manufacturing plant....read, researched, hunted...switched them to NB, finally (some of the upper end dog food is ridiculously priced!) And they did rotten on it. I simply went back to the Canidae and started cooking for them more and adding a few raw foods. They're thriving. It wasn't broken in the first place:doh:

Here, I found a chart: http://qldscienceteachers.tripod.com/junior/chem/acid.html

Stomach acid has a pH between 1-3, Lemons are a 2.3. We'll soak the kibble in lemon juice and see what it does.
See ya tomorrow in Science Class, lol


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

LifeOfRiley said:


> Thanks for the info, MyBentley.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
And adding water to/soaking the food before feeding it is supposed to prevent it from expanding IN the stomach, preventing bloat. I've fed kibble both dry and soaked, and not had an issue. My dogs have even eaten dry kibble and then tanked up on water. Go figure...


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

moverking said:


> Hey, I know what you mean, earlier this year, I obsessed over getting the girls off Canidae, not for any other reason than their transfer to Diamond's manufacturing plant....read, researched, hunted...switched them to NB, finally (some of the upper end dog food is ridiculously priced!) And they did rotten on it. I simply went back to the Canidae and started cooking for them more and adding a few raw foods. They're thriving. It wasn't broken in the first place:doh:
> 
> Here, I found a chart: http://qldscienceteachers.tripod.com/junior/chem/acid.html
> 
> ...


LOL. I can just see this. If I start conducting science experiments on the boys' food, mom is going to think I've completely gone 'round the bend. 

But yeah - I think I've gotten to that 'paralysis by analysis' stage. We're going to try Merrick's Before Grain with Gunner and Innova with Riley. If they like it and do well on it, I'm just going to stop reading. I could probably find at least one thing that I'm not crazy about with every single food on the market. Switching food every time I hear something will, I think, do more harm than any possible downside to a food.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> And adding water to/soaking the food before feeding it is supposed to prevent it from expanding IN the stomach, preventing bloat. I've fed kibble both dry and soaked, and not had an issue. My dogs have even eaten dry kibble and then tanked up on water. Go figure...


That actually makes more sense.
And yeah, I think about how we've fed our dogs over the years, and everything we let them do (which, according to today's logic, was pretty much everything you're NOT supposed to do) and we never had a problem. Maybe we were just lucky, or maybe all the do's and don'ts today are unfounded. Who knows...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> And adding water to/soaking the food before feeding it is supposed to prevent it from expanding IN the stomach, preventing bloat. I've fed kibble both dry and soaked, and not had an issue. My dogs have even eaten dry kibble and then tanked up on water. Go figure...


There was one study that saw an increase in bloat in dogs who had eaten dry food that was wetted down, so even that is called into question.

And actual emergency room bloat, as far as I know, is caused by the air in the stomach, not the expanded volume of kibble as it gets wet. I'm pretty sure it's the gulping behavior that causes bloat, not the constitution of the material in the stomach.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

I moisten with water, but that's it. Probably 2-3 ounces each feeding.



Pointgold said:


> I feed kibble. I put water on it. And I elevate my food bowls. None of my own dogs have ever bloated.
> Everything that I do is what used to be done to prevent bloat. Now, it's all the cause of bloat. I figure if I just don't tell my dogs that now the way they eat will cause bloat, they won't.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

Some form of stress (environmental, psychological, health) seems to enhance the prevalence of bloat as well.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

that has been the only thing that they have found consistently, stress contributes to the incidence of bloat.
BUT bear in mind, "excitement" is also a form of stress. It can be a very happy event, not necessarily a negative one, that contributes to the tendency to bloat.




Garfield said:


> Some form of stress (environmental, psychological, health) seems to enhance the prevalence of bloat as well.


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