# What is a good water dog?



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Most of us Golden owner/trainers are aware of a stereotype aimed at Goldens as being poor water dogs, or water weak. I've trained all retriever breeds, and am fully aware of this bias, especially among field trial competitors. But I'm also aware that is not accurate as a blanket statement.

But I am curious about popular perceptions of what a "good water dog" is. How do you assess a dog as strong, or weak in water? What are you looking for?

EvanG


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Thanks for posing this question. Hope you'll get some interesting responses. Don't have any personal experience of this but the little reading I've done mentions Chessies and Labs as being better water dogs. Don't know if that's just stereotyping.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

A good water dog possesses a balance of gifts. It must like water and be a capable swimmer. It must possess "Desire" for for birds. It must be tenacious in achieving it's goals, and have a "never quit" attitude. It must radiate it's love for the job when undertaking a task. 

Put all those things together and you have a good water dog. If one or more of those qualities is weak or missing altogether it won't be a pleasing performance no matter how much training the dog receives.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I like Swampcollie's answer. I would further clarify that by adding that a good water dog doesn't care if the water is cold, has ice on it, is filthy, is covered with lily pads or choked with weeds, they will go as sent and come back with the bird.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Good question. BaWaaJige use to plow in the water notice I said "use to" something happened and I am not sure what but he is still a good water dog. He will go in any water I send him into he doesnt plow in anymore it is a slow steady process for him but he will not give up either. I had an experience a month or so ago where his bumper sunk and I didnt have another with BaWaaJige swam and swam looking for his bumper putting his head in the water searching for that bumper he is the same way with ducks during a test his sunk again he didnt give up he would look to me for direction but he knew he was to find a bird or bumper and retrieve it. I think that is a good water dog.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

1. Enters water despite temperature, novelty, cover
2. Re-enters water for memory birds
3. Respects the shore
4. Willing to do long distance water marks & blinds

I believe most successful retrievers will need some water force during their training lifetime, it's how much and how they come out the other end of it that demonstrates what they're made of.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

My dog is a good water dog. She is the complete opposite of the stereotypical Golden. She has these qualities: no hesitation in her entry, excellent swimmer, fast swimmer, has a coat that does not hinder her, loves the water , also is not phased by the knee deep muck that is found in the marsh, and does not bring a couple of gallons of water back into the boat. This winter I will find out how well she takes the water during January duck hunting.

She also does well retrieving in the current of streams. This is something I don't hear many talk about.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Those looking at this thread might enjoy the video that was posted awhile ago. goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-videos/119312-dogs-view-duck-hunting.html About 2 comments into the thread there's an easy click to the video. Looks like a Golden on a cold day - snow in the background. For anyone who's seen it . . . do you think the dog's really swimming that fast or has the video been sped up? Was also interested to see the dog swim straight on by the ducks in the water to it's target (mark?). Is this typical?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> it's how much and how they come out the other end of it that demonstrates what they're made of.


To me this statement is most reflective of a good water dog. They can all be trained to varying extents to not cheat, and to go greater distance, as well as re-entries. But the less maintenance a given dog needs to perform all these tasks at a high level is what reflects their true water acumen.

This aspect of retriever work is, most of all, why I've said for so many years "you'll never really know what kind of dog you have until you've trained him."

EvanG


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

To add to what else has been said, I think a dog with a good water attitude does not have reticence about doing a water mark made challenging by distance, obstacles in the water etc. Training will only take you so far in this respect, and if the dog does not have guts to do it bred into him those sorts of marks will always be a challenge. I know water courage is one thing I am trying to improve in my dogs through my breeding choices.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well this is our Achilles heel and it is hard not to wonder if it is a breed weakness after experiencing it, talking to other people, and watching other dogs to the same. And it's hard to quite put it to words. My pro has the perception that Scout hates water but it isn't really that at all. She's more than eager to go for a swim on her own accord, she's been swimming since a young age, she's a strong swimmer, knows the words 'water' and 'swimming' and associates them positively, wants to pull toward water when walking near it on leash.....yet at the end of the day she has had some issues on water marks. 

The issues are not a consistent thing either that I can tell which has markedly added to the frustration. In one test we failed she balked at the entry (this is the only consistent factor--it is entry, once she is in all the way she's going) and I had to handle her in. We did a 180 degree turn into a different pond that had more technical stuff and she went without pause. I am hoping that now she is water forced and been through swim-by if we can precipitate this in training I can use force/handling to hopefully fix it. Problem is I can't figure out why she sometimes has issues and other times she doesn't so it is hard to draw it out in training. Makes me nervous to enter because I don't want her to learn she doesn't have to in a testing situation.

There are very few goldens around here, even fewer do I see training for field so take that as a caveat. Usually we are the only ones at any event. I do have a friend with some bench lines that has trained a little but not enough for me to fairly evaluate how strong her dogs might be in water...or even field really although on the surface they seem very low drive but maybe it is training/raising. The one field golden that ran in a few JHs with Scout failed both times on water refusals. It was disappointing to see because the bitch otherwise came across very sharp...at least on land.

However, my pro does have a lab that he was training that was not strong in water so it is good to see that it occurs in all breeds. My friend did tell me of one CH MH lab who was terrible in water and took a lot of hard training and force to get there. I don't feel like I personally have enough experience to know whether or not it is more common in goldens but from my experience and in talking to other people the perception is there.

EDIT: I think I have come to understand that water courage or a good water dog isn't really about whether or not a dog 'likes' water but rather how s/he handles water due to various factors which is why it is so complicated. It is easy to say my dog is a great water dog because he can swim, but until you've actually tested that in a field scenario you won't really know. It isn't enough just to 'like' water.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> EDIT: I think I have come to understand that water courage or a good water dog isn't really about whether or not a dog 'likes' water but rather how s/he handles water due to various factors which is why it is so complicated. It is easy to say my dog is a great water dog because he can swim, but until you've actually tested that in a field scenario you won't really know. It isn't enough just to 'like' water.


AMEN!!!!!
We ALL have dogs who looooooooove to fetch a ball in the pool but that says NOTHING about their water abilities as hunting/testing retrievers!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> EDIT: I think I have come to understand that water courage or a good water dog isn't really about whether or not a dog 'likes' water but rather how s/he handles water due to various factors which is why it is so complicated. It is easy to say my dog is a great water dog because he can swim, but until you've actually tested that in a field scenario you won't really know. It isn't enough just to 'like' water.


Yes, very well said.



GoldenSail said:


> There are very few goldens around here, even fewer do I see training for field so take that as a caveat. Usually we are the only ones at any event. I do have a friend with some bench lines that has trained a little but not enough for me to fairly evaluate how strong her dogs might be in water...or even field really although on the surface they seem very low drive but maybe it is training/raising. The one field golden that ran in a few JHs with Scout failed both times on water refusals. It was disappointing to see because the bitch otherwise came across very sharp...at least on land.


And there lies the rub, where _does_ that next dog come from? That's what I'm trying to figure out now even though that is at least 2-3 years down the road,_ and then_ would the breeder I'm interested in be interested in placing their puppy with me?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I feel that I need to comment about goldens and water. The goldens that I see that are good in the water are usually the ones that have at least some field background in their breeding. Most of the goldens that I see are not good in the water but then again most goldens I see do not have that field background. 

Other behaviors that are trained can be trained in any dog. IMO that doesn't make a good water dog, it just makes a trained water dog. A good water dog has a love for water and has the physical equipment to work well in the water. My opinion.

A lot of problems are IMO trainer/handler generated. Improper introduction to water, impatience with training, improper introduction to decoys, improper introduction to cripples in water and so on. I was training with a girl today who has a nice running dog who created just such a problem. She was training with another club, doing water work, and her dog got tangled in decoy lines. She now has a problem. I gave her some decoys fully rigged so that she can try to work through her problem. Then she told me that she doesn't know how to introduce a dog properly to decoys.

In my neck of the woods you never see a duck hunter with a golden. Guess why. Really, I would like to hear from you. I had been asked by a field trialer to help him give away three goldens, fully trained trial dogs that he had and couldn't keep as his wife had just passed away. I advertised them in my waterfowler's club (200 members). I couldn't give them away for free. Again, guess why.

Golden Sail, a word of encouragement. We have one golden in my group, an English cream type, who couldn't be dragged into the water with a team of mules. Patience and understanding, lots of fun doing other field work, and perseverance has completely changed that dog. It took 2 1/2 years. That dog is one of the strongest swimmers in our group and has a terrific water entry. In fact, he now LOVES water. I am of the opinion that force is good but is not the appropriate course of action for some goldens. That's why I like to take training advice-obedience or field-from trainers who own goldens.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

gdgli, they are out there, even from the show backgrounds. I have one who was probably very improperly introduced to water, as we never planned to do field work with him. Just pretty much tossed him in and let him figure it out. Even in dock diving the instinct showed up, as he just flew off the end of the dock fearlessly from the get-go. Something flying thru the air and causing a splash triggered something native in him, and off he went. He hardly swam at all, maybe 2-3 times a year, from the time he was about 6 months old until he was 3. The desire is just inborn, not trained. 
Same with decoys, cripples, shackled ducks in water, lily pads, dragging masses of seaweed, and so on. We just sent him and let him work it out. There was no real need to do an introduction, we knew he would be fine. We also don't worry about putting heat on him on water retrieves, as his love of both birds and water is so strong he can take a lot of pressure in the water. As I've said before, the boy is obsessed with water. I have the problem of keeping him out of the water if there is water near a land mark. Been told now at 2 SH tests by judges that he really has "a lot of heart" when it comes to very difficult water retrieves, involving lots of logs and sticks. At the one test (I've posted photos before but here it is again) he had never seen logs floating, but navigated over 15 of them for EACH mark plus for the blind to pass the test. One of few who passed.
Physically, although he's a show dog he's a moderate dog. He can swim fast when he chooses to (we have some issues with slow returns due to bird possessiveness, but it's not a physical issue). 
While he loves water, he does NOT like sucking mud. He will charge out thru it full speed, but his returns thru mud are slow. THAT is something we need to train for. 
So there are some goldens out there that really do have a lot of water instinct. They will never swim as fast as the fast labs, I agree with that, but they can be very fine water retrievers.

Photo is water blind, Tito's first SH test. BTW it was in March, and the water was also icy cold.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

hotel4dogs, I have seen videos of Tito. I believe that Tito is an excellent water dog. He has a love of the water. I wasn't being critical of show dogs. I really was expressing an opinion as to why one may not see the exuberance and natural ability in some showdogs.

As far as introduction to decoys, water etc. It is painful to watch some goldens around water. I view proper introduction as insurance, i.e. prevention of some problems. A dog like Tito will come through no matter what because of his love of water. Then there are the others who may not come through.

I follow my own advice. I took all the precautions with my current dog. She is probably like Tito and I probably could have have let her work things out. However I have seen too many problems out there. I feel that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

gdgli said:


> In my neck of the woods you never see a duck hunter with a golden. Guess why. Really, I would like to hear from you.


Because in your neck of the woods, most of the Goldens your waterfowling companions see on a regular basis are from conformation backgrounds, and they are weak water dogs. 

Doing a good job in the water certainly takes training, but the raw materials have to be there to begin with. Training can't replace breeding. If the desire isn't there to begin with it just won't work.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

now that I have defended the show dogs, LOL, I will agree that I sure have seen some that are downright painful to watch both on water AND on land.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Oh I agree that if you have to put a ton of work into a dog for water work this is not a strong water dog and should perhaps not be bred....but I also strongly believe you train the dog you have. Scout's my dog and I take her even with all her little imperfections and we work on them. Now I wouldn't bother doing field work if she hated it and I get grouchy when someone wants to suggest that she hates water. She does not hate water, she loves it _on her terms._ She has had no terrible experiences around it and had a strong introduction to it at a young age. 

It does leave me wondering what my next dog will be. At this point I am not sure it will be a golden for various reasons. I still am interested in the retriever games, but I am also interested in conformation still (yes I confess). But I want to focus on performance so a less popular breed might be more fun for me so I could be successful in conformation with less effort and with my own handling. I could have a nice lab pup in the future from a friend--just not sure I am a lab person and it takes away the 'less effort' part since they are still very popular (yet the coat care is easier--she says they never, ever are supposed to wash them even for a show). I know the bitch very well and have seen her work and that it worth so much to me right now. We are very good friends, and I've known the bitch since a pup and she has a rock solid temperament. Whichever it is though, I really think a boy will be my next one.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> now that I have defended the show dogs, LOL, I will agree that I sure have seen some that are downright painful to watch both on water AND on land.


 
Natural inborn "Desire" is everything. It affects all aspects of a working hunting dog. Marking, trainability, perserverance and style are all influenced by the dogs' Desire to do the work. 

There has been some increased effort in the last few years to get the conformation folks to take their dogs into the field and a few have taken the opportunity to do so. The experience has opened the eyes for those who have taken the plunge. They've learned about qualities inherent in a dog that are impossible to evaluate in the conformation ring and yet are critically needed for the working "Hunting Dog" described in the breed standard. 

A dog that because of its' breeding, doesn't like birds and dislikes water really isn't the "hunting dog" described by the breed standard.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> There has been some increased effort in the last few years to get the conformation folks to take their dogs into the field and a few have taken the opportunity to do so. The experience has opened the eyes for those who have taken the plunge. They've learned about qualities inherent in a dog that are impossible to evaluate in the conformation ring and yet are critically needed for the working "Hunting Dog" described in the breed standard.


I will never regret trying it, now we love it. It has given me a lot of cognitive dissonance though hence part of why I am not sure that a golden will be my next one. Very conflicted on where I would get one if I did.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I am just flabbergasted that people would say Goldens are weak water dogs. I've never done field work and I don't know all the things required of it, but I've been around Goldens my whole life. My dad got our first Golden as a gun dog, and she loved nothing more than plowing into a freezing lake after ducks...sometimes other people's ducks.

I had a golden, Chelsea, who I raised on a boat that I lived on at the time. She was amazing in the water, and was eventually trained in marine rescue and used by the local coast guard. She thought nothing of leaping off the high deck of a coast guard boat into roiling seas.

My show golden, Charlie, loved the beach so much. I could fling a frisbee waaaay out, and he would go plowing through high waves to get to it, over and over and over, until I had to make him stop for fear of exhaustion. Getting tumbled and submerged by waves -- sometimes for so long that I worried he was drowning -- didn't phase him one bit.

Every, single golden I have ever had has absolutely lived for being able to get into water of any kind, any temperature, any level of current or violence. They have all, every single one, been enthusiastic and fearless. My current rescue golden loves water so much that any time she sees it anywhere -- puddle, stream, pond, lake, ocean -- she _must_ get into it, just for the pure joy of being in water. It just amazes me that someone would think goldens aren't _fantastic_ water dogs.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> Because in your neck of the woods, most of the Goldens your waterfowling companions see on a regular basis are from conformation backgrounds, and they are weak water dogs.
> 
> Doing a good job in the water certainly takes training, but the raw materials have to be there to begin with. Training can't replace breeding. If the desire isn't there to begin with it just won't work.


You are absolutely correct. That's why I do retrieving demos. I hope to do a demo at SSWA duckboat show. I did a demo at National Hunting and Fishing Day Expo and got an invitation to go goose hunting.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

DanaRuns

I think that the goldens on LI are from different breeding stock. Swampcollie's comment says it all.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

DanaRuns said:


> I am just flabbergasted that people would say Goldens are weak water dogs. I've never done field work and I don't know all the things required of it, but I've been around Goldens my whole life. My dad got our first Golden as a gun dog, and she loved nothing more than plowing into a freezing lake after ducks...sometimes other people's ducks.


This is the point I am trying to get at...yes those dogs appear to be great water dogs but they have not been tested in a field environment. It is not the same thing. It isn't. I know it is hard to grasp if you haven't done field training. We had another thread awhile back talking about water courage. It is not about whether or not the dog likes water--mine loves water, shoot she'll go swim in the river in the middle of winter on her own, come out, and roll around in snow. Yet, at times, when it comes to a field scenario with marks she balks. It sucks. But this is exactly why it bothers me when people think they have a great water dog because it likes to swim. In retriever world that really is not the case.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Truthfully if I hadn't taken up field training I might be tooting my horn about how my dog likes water so she must be a great water dog. *cough cough*

*And most of the time mine is fine, but not all the time. Just most of the time. However she has a lot more reservations than many, many of the labs we train with. Lot more work for me.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

GoldenSail

How could you entertain the thought of another breed! Just look for a breeding that you like, get a look at the parents, and take a chance. With a gokden.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

gdgli said:


> GoldenSail
> 
> How could you entertain the thought of another breed! Just look for a breeding that you like, get a look at the parents, and take a chance. With a gokden.


I don't mean to derail the thread but the biggest reason is I want to do conformation still--and while it is not unheard of to owner handle your own dog in a popular breed it is a lot more time, money, and effort. I think I would rather focus more of that on performance which would be much easier in a less popular breed.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

GoldenSail said:


> This is the point I am trying to get at...yes those dogs appear to be great water dogs but they have not been tested in a field environment. It is not the same thing. It isn't. I know it is hard to grasp if you haven't done field training. We had another thread awhile back talking about water courage. It is not about whether or not the dog likes water--mine loves water, shoot she'll go swim in the river in the middle of winter on her own, come out, and roll around in snow. Yet, at times, when it comes to a field scenario with marks she balks. It sucks. But this is exactly why it bothers me when people think they have a great water dog because it likes to swim. In retriever world that really is not the case.


You're right, it is hard for me to grasp. All I know is my 50 years of experience with Goldens. You quoted one part of my post. What do you think about the other parts, where I talked about my marine rescue dog that leaped into waters too rough for humans in order to help save lives, and my conformation dog that wasn't bothered by being tumbled underwater in the ocean waves? Is that not "water courage"?

I know nothing about field work. I have a strong distaste for the so-called "sport" of hunting, and I live in a highly populated area so I've never gotten into field work. So, I don't understand how a dog that gets submerged in the ocean or risks his life in water doesn't make a good water dog. But I know nothing of field work. What is it in field training that makes a good water dog that goldens don't have?

Sorry, I should probably just stay out of this thread. I wandered in by accident!


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

DanaRuns, for what it's worth I think your marine rescue dog sounds awesome.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

danaruns, you should NOT stay out of the thread. Your opinion is very welcome, and your marine rescue dogs sound awesome!
While I am defending show dogs, I have certainly seen what gdgli, swampcollie, goldensail and others refer to at hunt tests (from some field bred goldens, too). The dogs take one look at the water, and refuse to go. Not a good thing.
Have seen a well known show dog (who has the world record for fails in a JH test I think) simply refuse to pick up a bird. Not a good thing.
"Primarily a hunting dog....."


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

to derail this a little more, someone (didn't bother to look back at who) made a comment about good water dogs not minding mud.
Tito HATES mud. I mean seriously hates it. He will head out full steam, but when he comes back he is picking his way thru the mud.
I asked a very well known trainer of goldens (they run both HT and FT) about it right after Tito came back thru some particularly nasty mud, up to his belly in sucking, stinky black stuff.
He told me to leave it alone. He said that the stuff we expect these dogs to go thru at hunt tests is an injury looking for a place to happen, ACL, elbow, shoulder, etc., and the slow return is the safest way to do it.
He also said he has had a few goldens who won't even sit at the line if it's real muddy, so he just sends them from a stand. 
So although I do encourage a faster return in mud, I am no longer looking for him to come back as fast as he headed out.
At one HRC test we ran Tito got stuck in the mud and was really churning to get back out. He was sunk in, like quicksand, about 2 inches up his sides. Thought we were going to have to go in and rescue him. It was nasty. Dan was running him, and afterward he said, "wow, he really had to drop down into low gear and put on 4 wheel drive to get out of that mess".
I believe the nicest, cleanest water we have ever run in was at National. It was lovely!


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> danaruns, you should NOT stay out of the thread. Your opinion is very welcome, and your marine rescue dogs sound awesome!
> While I am defending show dogs, I have certainly seen what gdgli, swampcollie, goldensail and others refer to at hunt tests (from some field bred goldens, too). The dogs take one look at the water, and refuse to go. Not a good thing.
> Have seen a well known show dog (who has the world record for fails in a JH test I think) simply refuse to pick up a bird. Not a good thing.
> "Primarily a hunting dog....."


Nope, not a good thing when they don't like water. One reason I could never even contemplate any kind of field training for Raider. He despises water. He is from a breeder who breeds for field too. I think he is just a fluke of nature. The only good thing about it is I never have to worry about with him like I did with Tess and Rusty and now Libby and Tugg is trying to eat thru the fence to get to the inground pool or dashing off for the creek. On the occasions I let them go swimming in the pool, he won't even come near the open gate. Weird dog.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Danaruns that is cool about your dogs they might have done well with field training. The point I am trying to make us that you don`t know until you do. The dog was great in that setting but I don`t believe you can necessarily extrapolite that to something different. Just like we had a discussion on a different forum where someone did not understand why we used birds for tests. Many dogs will retrieve balls to their heart`s content but will refuse to touch birds or are not driven enough by them to go the distance. A dog that loves to retrieve and likes to swim does not mean it will be a good hunting dog.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I don`t perceive water courage as a problem in all goldens and it does happen in other breeds. The question is if it occurs more frequently in our breed than others. My perception is that it does.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

DanaRuns

I would love to hear more about your dog's work. I find it very interesting.

You probably should be careful when you express an aversion to blood sports when you go onto a forum called "Golden Retriever Hunt and Field".:uhoh:


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> I don`t perceive water courage as a problem in all goldens and it does happen in other breeds. The question is if it occurs more frequently in our breed than others. My perception is that it does.



I've seen it frequently in the other "off breed" retrievers -- flat coats, curly coats & tollers. 
I can say both of my dogs would have water issues if I didn't immediately nip it in the bud. Both dogs went through phases of refusing water, both were instantly fixed and we moved on and are fine in the water now. What if I didn't know any better and, like most people, bribed, coaxed, and begged the dog rather than correcting them? 

Within each breed I think they all have their own set of problems.
Example...
friend of mine has a 3 yr old labrador from high octane HT/FT breeding.
The dog is a monster and would never dream of refusing a retrieve, water, whatever under extreme pressure. It was running master before it was two.
The owner now spends 2 hours a day on yard drills, holding blind drills, steadying drills because the dog is such a nut for retrieving. He maybe... maybe...lets the dog actually retrieve a bumper once a week. Any more and the dog goes into overdrive. Now to me that is drive to the point of untrainability. Literally he cannot just go train his dog because it's so nuts to retrieve. Now I don't necessarily agree with his tactic -- he thinks by taking it so slow and micromanaging the dog to the nth degree he will eventually conquer the dog -- I think he should just train and deal with issues as they come, but at any rate he's progressing slowly because of the dog's temperament.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

gdgli said:


> DanaRuns
> 
> You probably should be careful when you express an aversion to blood sports when you go onto a forum called "Golden Retriever Hunt and Field".:uhoh:


Lol!  You're probably right. My dad used to take me hunting with him when I was a little girl. I hated it, and the dead animals always made me cry. I couldn't eat them. He stopped taking me when I suggested that deer hunting would only be a "sport" if he did it with a knife instead of a gun, and had as much chance that the buck would kill him as he would kill the buck. I loved watching the dog when he would go duck hunting, though. 

I can dislike hunting and still admire the dogs and their tremendous skill and training.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> While I am defending show dogs, I have certainly seen what gdgli, swampcollie, goldensail and others refer to at hunt tests (from some field bred goldens, too). The dogs take one look at the water, and refuse to go. Not a good thing.
> Have seen a well known show dog (who has the world record for fails in a JH test I think) simply refuse to pick up a bird. Not a good thing.
> "Primarily a hunting dog....."


I personally witnessed that dog in "in-action" while waiting in the holding blind with my then 11 month-old. Makes you really feel the onus to have your dog do a good job when you are the next Golden on line. Thank goodness my little girl is a retrieving fool (she's the one who disappeared into flooded timber after a cripple last weekend, and did the 120 yard memory bird retrieve during setup on the last series of our Master National in August.)

Sadly, it is all too often the sort of thing I see as a judge, primarily from conformation-bred dogs, including Labradors as well as Goldens, Tollers, and Flats. If a dog is balking a JH marks, it is going to be a struggle to get the dog to a level where it can be a competant, useful gundog, and as Swampy has stated, that is what Goldens are SUPPOSED to be! If breeders are not SELECTING for it, by using dogs who have proven through testing of those working abilities that they have it, then it is so much more of a gamble as to whether you can get a good working dog from it.

My Breeze has her MH, and did it in fairly short order going 5 for 7, and she passed some pretty challenging tests. Marking tests in JH and SH, land and water, were not a problem for her, but I will still admit that water is not her strong suit in terms of her skill set. (And lots of judges will tell you that a challenging water series is what is going to tell you best what the dogs are made of.) If the last bird of a big water triple entails a long swim, she is going to worry about it, and that is just Master. Yes, I said _*just*_ Master--because Master is nothing like the water tests you will see in a FT-I watched my friend's bitch win the National Specialty FT in RI, and recently watched her son hammer a water test to place 3rd in one here, and know that too many Goldens I have seen would not have even been willing to get the first bird of those tests. Watch a dog do those tests and you will understand what courage is. That is why I have been trying to improve that inherent work ethic and desire relative to water through the breedings to boys from working pedigrees that I like. (The one "show" breeding I did with her produced my Sweet Butch--I love the big furball, but he is a prime example--hates if anything touches him underwater, gets scared by logs, etc--he is deadly on land, and has so much bird desire, but but challenging water just intimidates him, and while I could train through it to some extent, it is just not worth it to me and he will not be bred.)

Here is an image of that FT test--Go-bird was 90 yards, Memory1 was 110 yards, and Memory2 close to 160 yards (both M1 and M2 gunners retired)--not huge distance for a FT but this is a weedy, mucky, nasty stick pond. (And theese guys know how to get answers--one of the judges for this recently won both the CNAFC and CNFC with his dog). Quite a number of even the black dogs bailed out on the right shore on the way to the long memory bird. That attitude of letting nothing getting between them and the recovery of the bird is the courage that makes for a truly good water dog, and the dogs that placed that day got int he water and stayed in the water all the way out to that bird. Are those the kind of retrieves you will be making all the time when hunting? No, but it is nice to have a dog with the heart for them when they do happen.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

That looks pretty tough to me. You actually went to Rhode Island to watch a FT?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

gdgli said:


> That looks pretty tough to me. You actually went to Rhode Island to watch a FT?


The trial was actually at West Thompson in CT--I went for the National Specialty in part to do some stud dog research, and also to run my dogs in the HT, watch some of the other events and then cheer on my friends who were running the FT. I got to see my friend and her dog win it! So it was a pretty cool trip. That was where I met the dog I will be breeding Breeze to this fall, Trooper--loved him and his work then, and am loving what he has been producing in his pups.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

This is the water test from the RI National. Stick pond. Long mark (M2)thrown first at 170 yards. Gunner retired. M1 thrown at 90 ish yards. Go bird a wipeout flyer. There was an honour with this as well. Some dogs got lost in the weeds hunting for M1. Silk took a beeline to that long bird--over logs, it did not matter. It was awesome to see just what they can do if they have it in them.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

sterregold said:


> The trial was actually at West Thompson in CT--I went for the National Specialty in part to do some stud dog research, and also to run my dogs in the HT, watch some of the other events and then cheer on my friends who were running the FT. I got to see my friend and her dog win it! So it was a pretty cool trip. That was where I met the dog I will be breeding Breeze to this fall, Trooper--loved him and his work then, and am loving what he has been producing in his pups.


I have trained at West Thompson and I like the grounds.

Does Trooper belong to Dawn?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

No, the Trooper I am breeding to is Jim Drager's boy, formerly of PA, now in MT. I like the old Belvedere and Kiowa stuff. It seems to go well with the lines behind my girls.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Truer words never spoken


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