# 1963 National Retriever Field Trial Championship



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VdTnptaQyQ&feature=youtu.be


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Take a look at the handling. When I started this is how you sent a dog and this is how a dog was cast when doing blind retrieves.


----------



## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

What changes have you made over the years with how you send your dog on a blind? Did the position of your hand really make a difference?
Or, did you better learn to read the dog infront of you?


----------



## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

I'd say both.

My training group(when I first started) said to put your hand over the dogs head to make sure his spine and head were lined up to where he was going to be sent.

This made no sense!
He can't see my hand.

I chose to take on the "Bowling style"
This is where you get eye level with your dog, with arm extending infront ,to the side, of dog leading the way. Give a sharp "Back" and lift your arm like you let go of the bowling ball.

I was reading my dog, and found what worked for us. It wasn't in a book or video.

Running blinds is a Art.


----------



## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

I've been told both - but it was in the context of giving the dog a cue that it's lined up the right way and ready to be sent, and don't move the hand!
It doesn't make sense to me either, b/c they shouldn't be looking at our hands, and if they can see it, then it will be a distraction.
Our dog school teacher said don't use the hand, it's a distraction. Especially I tend to move my hand. I'll be interested to hear some other perspectives about "the hand".


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

forgot about that video, nice to see where the sport was and where it has gone now. the way the handlers handled the dogs then would be considered very sloppy in todays FT and HT world.


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

The bowling style was thought to give the dog some momentum. Also it was conditioned to be a cue that meant "Run". I actually like bowling style. However someone pointed out to me that the moving hand can be distraction.

Interestingly enough, Freddy King has a video where he hunts flooded timber with the dog on a stand in the swamp. He sends with a pointed finger. And the video looks good.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

ha, notes...So that hasn't changed, when he said, this group is said to spend the most time and the most money to be the most uncomfortable in there hobby, ha ha. Also, dog boxes are about the same! Loving that slanted one for the station wagon...interesting only black and yellow labs then. I also, thought it was mighty sloppy back then compared to now but I liked the flash! The dogs aren't very tight. I could handle that!ha ha! Do they televise now? I don't think so. Its too bad, they make it sounds so exciting! Oh and I've also almost blown my whistle to pieces, ha ha! Funny that the handler left his dog!



I've heard that the hand was one last steadying moment for the dog before he goes. I do not like using my hand on the first mark for Katniss but will use it for subsequent marks. Although, with proof, I do like it to steady him.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Dogs have terrific peripheral vision so absolutely 100% they can see your hand over their head. I send with my hand but it is not a directive device - it is not telling the dog WHERE to go. It's telling the dog WHEN to go. It's the next-to-last step in our communication that the dogs is locked in and we're on the same page as to where he's headed. For blinds and memory birds I use here/heel and my legs to adjust the dog's line, "good" to indicate he's on the correct line, my hand over his head sorta locks them down to be committed before sending. I've never trained with someone who used the "bowling ball" send nor seen a handler use that that I would like to emulate, so it's never been something I've been interested in using. So long as you are consistent with your cues, dogs can learn to follow any sort of direction though, so as long as it's successful for you, no need to change.


----------



## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

gdgli said:


> The bowling style was thought to give the dog some momentum. Also it was conditioned to be a cue that meant "Run". I actually like bowling style. However someone pointed out to me that the moving hand can be distraction.
> 
> Interestingly enough, Freddy King has a video where he hunts flooded timber with the dog on a stand in the swamp. He sends with a pointed finger. And the video looks good.


I think its a great idea also.Especially if you hunt or run hrc events. The dog needs to follow the gun to his mark. It just seemed to make more sense for me than to try and push or pull my dog with my knee, as I see alot of people do. Lining my dog up with my arm to his side (like the gun)compliments my style nicely

Gonna have to check out that King video ;-)


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Poppy2 said:


> I think its a great idea also.Especially if you hunt or run hrc events. The dog needs to follow the gun to his mark. It just seemed to make more sense for me than to try and push or pull my dog with my knee, as I see alot of people do. Lining my dog up with my arm to his side (like the gun)compliments my style nicely
> 
> Gonna have to check out that King video ;-)


no the dog "follows" the gun to see the mark and really most dogs are queuing of the movement of the handler. watch the dogs and the handlers at the grand the dogs don't move just their head and it is off the sound of the winger not the movement of the gun or the handler. really watch the older finished dogs their head doesnt move of one bird unless there is a sound of the winger. and really watch if it is hand thrown birds. you will hear the good handlers start queuing the dog to heel or here soon as the first bird hits the ground. at a master test or FT almost all the dogs move with the handler but that isn't ever really necessary since there is a shot in the field.

when I'm hunting i really don't care if my dog sees all the birds hit the water as long as i saw them or someone else saw them hit the water because then i can get my dog there to pick it up by running a blind. 

but i am of the school of line the dog up then place the hand about 3-4in just infront and above the eyes. this is giving a que on longer memory marks and almost all blinds to take the line i am giving you, the only time i don't drop my hand for a mark is if it is a check down bird and i also use the easy que as the dog is returning to heel letting the dog know we are not going long we are going short. the only time i drop my hand for a check down is if the dog somewhat bugging and i will repeat the easy que the reason for the hand to drop to lock the dog on to a line because they were bugging and as with any check down a soft send.


----------



## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Not really sure how to answer all that and stay on topic. 
My dog follows the gun. How do I know?

I sat on a bucket with him by my side and had someone behind me throw a bird over my head, AFTER I swung the gun there.
This is called teaching.

There were no sounds of wingers or gunners in the field to que off,( clutter)just a dozen goose shells. Sure he read my movement on the bucket and que'd off here and heal like a good dog.
And learned later to listen for the winger.

you can't tell me my dog doesn't follow the gun or my hand along side his head on a blind. They are one in the same and work for us as a team. He knows when I swing my 870 he best look that way. He knows when I say dead bird, its a blind. He que's off my hip first,then I line him up with my arm extended a hands length infront of his muzzle to the side. He locks in where i'm pointing, I say good. Then send the dog.


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Here you go Poppy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2V91KQF3tk&app=desktop

Not a hunt test. This is hunting.


----------



## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Hey, thanks for posting that!
I would have never found that on youtube, man he's got alot of videos.

I've heard of hunt tests where the dog has to sit on the platform like that,, never ran one myself.
I could only imagine the trouble people would have trying to get there dog line up on a blind if they couldn't reach above his head.


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

gdgli said:


> Interestingly enough, Freddy King has a video where he hunts flooded timber with the dog on a stand in the swamp. He sends with a pointed finger. And the video looks good.


Oh man, that gets me in the mood to hunt some ducks, but we're still 4 months away!
The finger point is great! Whatever gets the dog's head head pointed in the right direction will work just fine; when hunting, a good initial "line" doesn't really matter, so the nose-spine alignment isn't a big deal.


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Poppy2 said:


> I've heard of hunt tests where the dog has to sit on the platform like that,, never ran one myself.
> I could only imagine the trouble people would have trying to get there dog line up on a blind if they couldn't reach above his head.


The closest thing I've run in a trial is a remote cast blind, but they have always been with the dog's rear-end on the ground, with the initial cast being a straight back. It would be interesting if the first cast would need to be an over. (I'm not positive that the rule book would allow that...I seem to recall that there's something in the rules about a dog must theoretically be able to line the blind on the initial cast...would the initial line from an "over" cast be in compliance with that rule...I suspect it depends on who's interpreting the rule at the time.) 
What's interesting is that the remote cast blind seems to bother the handlers a lot more than the dogs.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

We practice remote blind sends a lot, even have the dogs sit on downed tree trunks and cast them off of it, no problems. Of course have yet to run into that at a test!
The only thing that confused my dog was trying to cue them with "dead bird" when they are remote. At first I thought it would help them understand we're about to run a blind, but they would look all over the place rather than focus on me! If I just said SIT then cast them back like a normal cast they were totally fine.


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

For most dogs, remote send blinds are not a big deal. 
Once when I was judging an Amateur we were given a simple, uninteresting channel with no cover for our water blind and our water marks. There was nothing, not even a long entry was possible...the only thing we could come up with for the water blind was a remote send blind. One of my buddies who buys FULLY trained retrievers (i.e., he has never trained a dog from puppy-hood through transition) saw the blind and threw a fit. Before the test started, he and I were off to the side and he started cussing and complaining about how stupid the test was and that he'd "never seen anything like that in his life!" I told him to relax, maybe he'd not seen it, but all of his dogs had seen something very similar to it and that they'd do just fine IF he didn't freak them out. 
They did fine, he apologized.


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

FTGoldens said:


> For most dogs, remote send blinds are not a big deal.
> Once when I was judging an Amateur we were given a simple, uninteresting channel with no cover for our water blind and our water marks. There was nothing, not even a long entry was possible...the only thing we could come up with for the water blind was a remote send blind. One of my buddies who buys FULLY trained retrievers (i.e., he has never trained a dog from puppy-hood through transition) saw the blind and threw a fit. Before the test started, he and I were off to the side and he started cussing and complaining about how stupid the test was and that he'd "never seen anything like that in his life!" I told him to relax, maybe he'd not seen it, but all of his dogs had seen something very similar to it and that they'd do just fine IF he didn't freak them out.
> They did fine, he apologized.



want to see some people freak out run an HRC finished test from a remote sit (luckily from a dog stand) handler is 10yards away from the dog. first mark out is thrown over the handlers head landing between the dog and handler. wasnt long before you figured out the handlers that had hunted and the ones that didnt. it didnt matter to the dogs they pretty much knew the drill. 

that was about the only "true hunting test" i have seen. order of the birds was shorted to farthest the dog stand was placed in a spot that provided a little cover "to hide the dog". even the handler had a marsh seat to sit on in a little bit of cover.


----------

