# Novice Obedience Training Question



## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

Lily and I started in a drop in novice obedience class last night at a local dog club. Prior to this we trained last at small private facility that kept the class size to six and used only very positive training. No choke chains or prong collars and certainly no harsh corrections. Our instructor last night was good at explaining if we hadn't done something before and frankly I think Lily was incredible. Were her sits straight, no, not at the beginning, but they got better. I noticed prong collars, choke chains and a few people being incredibly harsh with their dogs. One dog got up from a long sit and I watched the owner grab and pinch the side of his face while forcing him back in a sit. Another jerking on the pinch collars often. Many used a harsh voice when calling in recall. Is this just normal? I was taught to always use a happy fun voice and have lots of treats and praise. It's how I plan on training no matter what others do, but I was disappointed and curious to see if this is no big deal.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Yes, in some training circles it is normal. It may be referred to as compulsion or possibly balanced training. 

If you are uncomfortable with it, I would strongly urge you to find another class. When you are around the harsher methods of training they can start to feel acceptable to you and if the instructor is comfortable with the harsher methods, she may encourage you to try these methods, thereby putting you on the spot.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

It does depend on the group. I have been in both types. Maybe I don't take competitive obedience seriously enough, but I like being in classes where it is not a big deal when the dog messes up.


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## RYAC (Mar 10, 2014)

Lucy is in a novice obedience class as well. A lot of the dogs have prong collars and we do correct the dog but it's different. Your command should be firm with enthusiasm, training should be fun and upbeat. My trainer said it best. The only reason and way to correct, is to move the dog in position for praise. And to use as little force to get the dog in that same position.

For example, the dog doesn't sit on command. You correct with a slight tug up, only enough to make the dog sit. Now he is in position for praise because he did what you said. We treat and show the dog that is what we want out of him. He has also taught us that you say the command once, if the dog does not comply, you correct with no verbal command, just physical. I hate when I see people command sit while tugging the collar. That is totally confusing the dog. We also only use a buckle collar, and we are very upfront about us only wanting to use that, it is just our preference. There is nothing wrong with other training collars, we just don't use them. 

I do agree with sunrise. If the class is structured in a way that makes you uncomfortable, I would leave. If you are not having fun, your dog will pick up on it, and it won't be fun for either of you.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

It would be difficult to say without seeing what you did? 

There's lots of different types of trainers out there - and you get a mix of them at dog clubs. Some of them are harsher than others.... and have a reputation for being so. Others use both corrections and praise... and consider that the best way as really polishing the dogs and actually WINNING (not just qualifying) in the ring. And then others nit over which corrections they use and lean heavily on play and jackpots to keep their dogs "up". 

I generally am more comfortable with the more positive end trainers (and I train with them). 

The lady I train with too who does use heavier handed corrections with her own dogs.... I simply tell her I won't use them on my dogs, and we've trained together long enough (5 years) for her to know I mean it. 

Because you are starting out for the first time with your dog.... it's important that you can listen to and learn from the instructor. Especially when it comes to getting to the end goals... 

I personally would not spend a lot of time taking classes from any of those types of trainers who are telling me to ear pinch my dog for dropping dumbbells or scruff shake them across the floor.... <- And I'm surrounded by all that in the class. That would be highly stressful for me and even though I'm strong at putting my foot down and telling people to go fish when it comes to them telling me to do stuff I don't want to do.... I don't want to be training somewhere around people making their dogs yelp or shriek during the class. 

I used to watch classes run by a certain instructor in my area whose classes were kinda like that. And I hated watching and couldn't imagine taking those classes with my dog. 

Now if you are talking about group classes where the instructor is more or less willing to adapt what she's teaching based on what you are willing to do and what you need... and the people who are pinching dogs or barking at them are doing it on their own vs this being something taught in the class.... I think it's probably stuff you can blow off and just ignore. 

*** Fwiw - I train my dogs with choke chains and use various corrections depending on what is needed. I still am very positive and soft handed with my dogs. Most people I train with are the same way.


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

I have 3 choices in my area. Two similar dog clubs and where we trained for basic/advanced good manners and nosework. Our trainer there isn't a big fan of competition obedience so she doesn't offer it. I wish she would. Of everyone in my area she is the only one that is a trained behaviorist working on her masters. Her training facility is frankly, calming. My other choice is 1 hour away and I can't get there after work. I know she wouldn't approve of harsh techniques either. I won't change my views nor will I compromise. I probably won't compete, but we are working towards our therapy dog test in October. I figured extra obedience will help us out. Next week is Rally novice. I'm switching off each week.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

When I was working with Zoe we trained at a place that did not permit prong or chain collars or harsh training techniques. We were making progress in our competition obedience training but maybe not as fast or as precisely as those using other techniques. I was actually surprised to learn what harsh techniques some competitors use. I remember being at a match when the judge yelled "if you kick that dog another time I'll throw you out of here" at someone in the next ring warming up their Golden. There's quite a wide spectrum of training styles.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Tayla's Mom said:


> Our trainer there isn't a big fan of competition obedience so she doesn't offer it. I wish she would. Of everyone in my area she is the only one that is a trained behaviorist working on her masters. Her training facility is frankly, calming.


You realize though... it probably is a good thing she doesn't offer comp obedience. Because if somebody doesn't love the sport of working with and showing off these dogs... they are not going to inspire their students to succeed. She probably teaches the stuff that she enjoys... and for that reason can make enjoyable for her students.

I did mean what I said about there being a good middle ground as far as... if you do not completely agree with everything being taught, but sticking to it because that training location or person will get you to the goal you're looking for. 

I'm taking some field classes from somebody who is a CDPT and ADPT... 

I think it is going to work out for now, but she had me do the harshest correction on Bertie... and I hated it. He was shutting down trying to understand what she wanted from him, she had me put him in the car without saying anything to him, without touching him, or anything. Because I'm very closely bonded with my dogs... it bothered me more than any physical correction I've done with him, if only because with the physical corrections it's delivered in a clear way and quickly balanced by a positive reward when he adjusts. With a physical correction, my dog is still bright eyed and wagging his tail. He's not crunching down, wide-eyed, panting, and showing all signs of stress and distress. Physical corrections or the kind I use, are not as depressing or anxious for the dog as being "cut off" or "pushed away" without any idea of what he did wrong... 

I seriously did not like it at all and that's one of the things I've completely blown off and told her we'll do differently next time (I'm bringing Jacks and a crate and like it or not, I'll TALK to my dogs thank you). 

But this trainer - I know her personally (she took classes at the same place I train at and we were showing our dogs in BN and then novice at the same time) and know what she's accomplished with her own dogs in field. Our training philosophies do not necessarily mesh... but I think it's something I can work around.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Megora it sounds like she isn't tuned into how sensitive goldens are to rejection and separation from us.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Just like any social gathering you will find all kinds. Unless the instructor you are using is telling these people they must treat their dogs this way, then ignore them and chalk it up to different strokes for different folks. Especially at a obedience club training facility, nobody is on payroll, you have lots of different people teaching (volunteering) different classes and a WIDE range of students. Some are new at training, some are just not good trainers, some have dogs really different than what you're used to. As long as you like your instructor and think she is doing right by you, do your best to enjoy it. Just like working in an office, not everybody is going to be your best friend, but so long as you like the boss and have a good working relationship with your co-workers, it's okay if they do things a little different than you would choose to. You are fortunate to have any sort of facility to take a class! They are few and far between in FL.


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Finding a training class that you are comfortable with is of prime importance. If you are not feeling ok about the training you dog will pick up on that. Not good for either of you! That being said, I have been to classes using many different methods. I prefer using a prong collar, not a choke collar. A well qualified trainer will not teach a lot of negatives into their training techniques. Low clear voice, not yelling or using any threatening body language is basic requirements. The collar correction is used only when you know the dog understands the command through past performance, and is refusing to take the command. Then the correction is a quick gentle jerk, only once while repeating the command. We actually were trained on how to do this by putting the pinch collar on our forearms, it doesn't hurt, it does pull and pinch, but not painfully. Hard to understand without trying it....

this method has worked very well for my on 6 field trained goldens.....so far!

I do believe other methods work, just not as well....


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