# The golden show/performance split isn't so bad



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

*Golden Retriever Breed Standard*



> Males 23-24 inches in height at withers; females 21½-22½ inches. Dogs up to one inch above or below standard size should be proportionately penalized. Deviation in height of more than one inch from the standard shall _disqualify_. Length from breastbone to point of buttocks slightly greater than height at withers in ratio of 12:11. Weight for dogs 65-75 pounds; bitches 55-65 pounds.


*Labrador Retriever Breed Standard*



> Size--The height at the withers for a dog is 22½ to 24½ inches; for a bitch is 21½ to 23½ inches. Any variance greater than ½ inch above or below these heights is a disqualification. Approximate weight of dogs and bitches in working condition: dogs 65 to 80 pounds; bitches 55 to 70 pounds.
> The minimum height ranges set forth in the paragraph above shall not apply to dogs or bitches under twelve months of age.
> 
> Proportion--Short-coupled; length from the point of the shoulder to the point of the rump is equal to or slightly longer than the distance from the withers to the ground. Distance from the elbow to the ground should be equal to one half of the height at the withers. The brisket should extend to the elbows, but not perceptibly deeper. The body must be of sufficient length to permit a straight, free and efficient stride; but the dog should never appear low and long or tall and leggy in outline.
> ...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

My guess is the way the standard is written - heavyset dogs have the advantage. 

(I know of show bred labs who have gotten their hunt titles - not as heavy that that dog who won the breed though)


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Megora said:


> My guess is the way the standard is written - heavyset dogs have the advantage.
> 
> (I know of show bred labs who have gotten their hunt titles - not as heavy that that dog who won the breed though)


Just curious, what do you see in the standard that suggests heavyset dogs would have an advantage? Maybe my mind just zeroed in on this, making me miss something:


> Substance--Substance and bone proportionate to the overall dog. Light, "weedy" individuals are definitely incorrect; equally objectionable are cloddy lumbering specimens. Labrador Retrievers shall be shown in working condition well-muscled and without excess fat.


But when I read that, I would think that a heavyset dog would certainly be considered incorrect and that a moderate dog should be ideal.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> dog is 22½ to 24½ inches; for a bitch is 21½ to 23½ inches.





> dogs 65 to 80 pounds; bitches 55 to 70 pounds





> Light, "weedy" individuals are definitely incorrect





> but the dog should never appear low and long or tall and leggy in outline


^ This. Primarily.

It is written in the standard that these dogs should not be lightweight or leggy. Which has an effect on how breeders bred for show. 

And I imagine that as stout as these dogs are, they aren't rolling and flopping as they gait out there.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Every Lab I see at shows looks "cloddy and lumbering" to me.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

DanaRuns said:


> Every Lab I see at shows looks "cloddy and lumbering" to me.


And if _all_ of them in the ring have that stout shape and movement.... the judge still has to pick what s/he sees a best representing the breed.

So if you have all these 22-23" tall dogs who are carrying 80-85#....


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

I find this discussion interesting. When I saw that best of breed Lab in the sporting group I thought that dog looks so lumbering and heavy. It made me a little sad since I've seen so many labs that are beautiful, fit, graceful and intelligent looking . . . even the ones in the Purina ad that was running during the show looked better to me.


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

Omg I am cracking up over these videos !! lol!!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Megora said:


> And if _all_ of them in the ring have that stout shape and movement.... the judge still has to pick what s/he sees a best representing the breed.
> 
> So if you have all these 22-23" tall dogs who are carrying 80-85#....


Not entirely true. They can withhold ribbons. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Megora said:


> And if _all_ of them in the ring have that stout shape and movement.... the judge still has to pick what s/he sees a best representing the breed.
> 
> So if you have all these 22-23" tall dogs who are carrying 80-85#....


I suppose the standard does allow for the dog to be 22-23 in and 80 lbs... but logic would dictate that the tallest height allowed and the largest weight would correspond. So a 24.5" dog weighing 80 lbs would be just a little more stout than a golden at 24" and 75 lbs... not the massive amount of weight we are seeing now. I do see exactly what you're saying, though, about the standard allowing for this type of drift. I guess just seeing those heavy dogs out there, what really struck me and stood out was the "equally objectionable" part that I quoted earlier. I agree with others that the labs in the show ring look quite cloddy and lumbering... which, according to the standard, is just as incorrect as being light or weedy.

Should the judges be withholding ribbons? Should the breeders who own these dogs know better and keep their dogs fit? All of the above? I don't know the answer, but I hope that the pendulum will swing back to a more moderate place for labs soon. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Should the breeders who own these dogs know better and keep their dogs fit? All of the above? I don't know the answer, but I hope that the pendulum will swing back to a more moderate place for labs soon.


It won't, because some of the more influential breeders are also judging them.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Not entirely true. They can withhold ribbons.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


From GCH and CH dogs at the biggest show in the country? 

Bertie's breeder hinted about stuff he's seen in the lab ring. Right down to going out there and not seeing a single dog he likes. But at least he said these people paid for their time in the ring and he gives them time and in the case he was referring to, deliberated between those dogs (despite him not liking a single one). 

The thing I'm twitching about of course is the lab breeder here in Michigan who I interviewed seriously and came very close to actually discussing upcoming litters with.... they sent several dogs to Westminster. LOL. When you see some of these dogs in person, you don't really think of them as being that... rotund.... but yeah, watching the videos last night, they definitely were barreling around the ring with a few exceptions. :


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

It appears that a lot of the conformation bred labs are not kept in 'working condition.' Of course you could say the same about many Golden Retrievers too. I believe that adhering to that aspect of the breed standard is the judge's responsibility, since he or she is actually the one putting hands on the dog.

Here's a nice example of a dog who appears to be right on target.

English Labrador puppies . Champion master hunter. - be sure to scroll all the way to the photos from his younger days. Gorgeous dog.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Two years ago I did some Lab puppy work for a friend of mine who wanted an "English" (show) line pup. We went to two big show kennels here in Michigan (one was probably the one Kate went to). At the first we went to the owner and assistant were training their dogs at their pond for their WCs. She did have some of the oddly short Labs and some that looked rather stout, but they were all bouncing around like Labs should.

The second breeder, where my friend wound up getting a dog from, had a Westminster breed winner a decade ago. We met that dog who was at least 12 and still mobile and sweet. The interesting thing with that breeder is that when we looked at the sire of the litter on the ground, my friend stated that she did not want such a stout dog and the breeder said to get him neutered at 6 months and he will wind up being a less massive dog. The puppy Bing, now 18 months is lighter in build than his father and not a large dog at all.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

Here is what they looked like before they were 'improved'. 
Shamrock Acres Light Brigade

I owned a grandson of his and he was one of the nicest dogs I ever had. He was my first MH dog and incredibly easy to train, very athletic and birdy. 

Absolutely nothing like what is in the ring today.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Yesterday I attended a retriever function. We were working on various handling techniques (backs, overs, walking fetch, and force to pile). I sat next to a woman with chessies. We talked about the split in breeds and she was very happy that had not happened in chessies. Her dog had a GCh and ran field trials. She thought dogs should do both. So do I. But the labs are another matter. Fire plugs on sticks waddling. Sweet and happy to get the bumper, but waddling all the same. I have seen fat goldens in the ring though. So we aren't far behind. We do need to be careful. I do see it somewhat with the "British" style of goldens. Sorry don't mean to offend anyone.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

TrailDogs said:


> Here is what they looked like before they were 'improved'.
> Shamrock Acres Light Brigade
> 
> I owned a grandson of his and he was one of the nicest dogs I ever had. He was my first MH dog and incredibly easy to train, very athletic and birdy.
> ...


I might be wrong here - keep in mind this was an impression I had back when I was a kiddo.  But when I was little - hip dysplasia was a bigger issue with Labrador retrievers. It was a huge problem. Around that time I started seeing them making the breed more and more compact. At least going by what was in the ring.

The way my brain works - I always thought it was related to breeding away from hip problems. Or maybe it was breeding more and more English lines. Who knows. 

That's the thing that gets me a lot of the time with the breed. You see with the breed standard - they are allowed to be an inch shorter than goldens - and 10 pounds heavier? And I see a lot of really short labs... 

But you get one with nice breeding and keep them LEAN - and they are just absolutely gorgeous. 

There was one in one my obedience classes last year. The people who owned him were young and new at training, so I don't know if they stuck with the obedience training or took to private classes. <- Haven't seen them in a while. 

Their dog was very nice breeding. He had the massive head and sweet expression. But because they were also very active owners and also doing field (meaning they sent him out to train), this dog was in great shape too. Great shape from a performance perspective. Dog show perspective with this breed is turning into something completely different though.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

Megora said:


> I might be wrong here - keep in mind this was an impression I had back when I was a kiddo.  But when I was little - hip dysplasia was a bigger issue with Labrador retrievers. It was a huge problem. Around that time I started seeing them making the breed more and more compact. At least going by what was in the ring.
> 
> That's the thing that gets me a lot of the time with the breed. You see with the breed standard - they are allowed to be an inch shorter than goldens - and 10 pounds heavier? And I see a lot of really short labs...
> 
> ...


I don't know, my Brigg's grandson was OFA excellent as was his father.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
I don't see any hip problems in these dogs.

Heights and weights in the standard tell you very little. The heights and weights are meant to be proportionate, clearly they are not.
Taking weight off does not make for a good working dog if they have legs that are too short and bones that are too heavy.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Here's an example of a show lab that I really like... 

Honadore Labradors - Am./Can. Ch. Summerset Buoys Nite Out WC

Here's another -

Infinity Labradors <- Look at Dobry

Endeavor Labradors-Endeavor Friday I'm In Love <- This was another breeder I looked at and really liked what they have and what they do.

Just to show the differences between field bred and show bred labs - examples from Jaybar retrievers and Endeavor Labradors. It definitely is more than just weight. You see those field bred dogs do not fit within the breed standard as copied over on the first page of this thread.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I have a good friend of mine who breds show labs and is getting started in field. She wants to do both which is great. One bitch that she has, of course IMO, is what I would love for a lab to look like. She was about to put her in the show ring and she asked me how her weight looked? I told her, I thought she looked great. Well... Her lab friends told her she was too skinny!!! Good grief! She did not listen to them, luckily. The next week, she went WB for a 5 pt major and went Breed over specials with a group 2. She finished extremely quickly. She has leg! And she has tons of drive in the field. Love watching her work. Here is some pics of her. Her sire is a SH and has 3 passes on MH


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Ugh... Only letting me load one at a time


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Ok last one...


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

Megora said:


> Here's an example of a show lab that I really like...
> 
> Honadore Labradors - Am./Can. Ch. Summerset Buoys Nite Out WC
> 
> ...


We will have to disagree on that. Some of the field labs do not fit the standard but neither do a lot of the show labs. The examples you gave show a lot of short legged, obese dogs on that one website.
The labrador was never meant to look like a rottie. The rottie look started around the mid 80's. I used to attend a lot of labrador specialties. 
Per the standard:
A wedge-shape head, or a head long and narrow in muzzle and back skull is incorrect *as are massive, cheeky heads.*

Here is the illustrated standard from the LRC which gives a better overview of what a labrador should look like.
http://www.thelabradorclub.com/uploads/file/IlloStand2002.pdf
None of the illustrations resemble the westminster bitch that won.
Just because people like it does not make it correct. 
I think the lady who wrote the blog was dead on.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Megora said:


> From GCH and CH dogs at the biggest show in the country?
> 
> Bertie's breeder hinted about stuff he's seen in the lab ring. Right down to going out there and not seeing a single dog he likes. But at least he said these people paid for their time in the ring and he gives them time and in the case he was referring to, deliberated between those dogs (despite him not liking a single one).
> 
> The thing I'm twitching about of course is the lab breeder here in Michigan who I interviewed seriously and came very close to actually discussing upcoming litters with.... they sent several dogs to Westminster. LOL. When you see some of these dogs in person, you don't really think of them as being that... rotund.... but yeah, watching the videos last night, they definitely were barreling around the ring with a few exceptions. :


I'm not saying it would happen at Westminster, but I have heard of judges withholding ribbons when the entry is not up to par. Point is, they aren't *forced* to choose a winner.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'm not saying it would happen at Westminster, but I have heard of judges withholding ribbons when the entry is not up to par. Point is, they aren't *forced* to choose a winner.


I think any judge who refused to award any Lab out of the field would have a hard time getting another assignment.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

I was just out with Maddie (who could lose a couple of pounds) and saw two other goldens. We joined them for a bit and talked. One was only two and the other five. I had thought they were much older as they were fat. I asked if they had thyroid problems. He said "no, it was their DNA." 

So, yes, I shouldn't have said anything, but they were easily ten-fifteen pounds overweight. Not just a little chubby.

I felt like I was talking to a parent about their kids, you know, "they are just big boned."


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