# resource guarding - my dog was biting another dog



## turtle66 (Feb 19, 2010)

Any advice for training?
Our 10 month old Golden Retriever Lilly is participating in an "Impulse Control Class" and she really did bite a little dog in the class twice now 
It was last week at the very end of the class, where they got some play time. Somehow a ball got thrown into the bulk of 9 dogs playing and running. Lilly got it, ran with the ball, dropped it, a little bulldog got the ball and Lilly got totally mad, bit immediately and hard into the bulldogs ear and it took us a little bit to separate both dogs. The bulldogs ear was bleeding but nothing serious. All week long we tried to test more seriously if she is guarding. But no: - no food guarding with us, you can take her food bowl whenever you want...she will give you her very favorite bone (with a little resistance I have to admit) but definitely no growling or stiffness or something like that.
This evening - I still can't believe it - she did it again. Playtime for the dogs at the beginning of the class. All were playing well together inclusive Lilly and the bulldog. But somehow I lost a couple of the favorite red barn treats out of my pocket....guess what, the little bulldog got some of them and Lilly was right there to bite and fight another time! It was AGAIN his ear. We stopped them early, no bleeding, no serious injuries, but I guess I need to do some serious training with Lilly.

Lilly is usually a very sweet dog - very social, loves all people but also other dogs. Was never aggressive before. She is actually usually quite submissive in front of other dogs: Goes to them, sits and let them sniff or rolls over to her back, tail tucked in...If the other dog is not interested, she just goes and will find someone else to play with.
She was and is always food driven, so we were aware of food guarding from the very beginning. But she really does well with us - we can do with her food whatever we want to do...she just sits and waits till the food comes...

Any ideas? Any advices for a first time dog owner?

Thank you!


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

My question is "WHY did the instructor allow playtime in a self control class?" 

This sounds simple enough, take her out of the group play. This does not mean she can't ever play. It does mean you may want to acclimate her to wearing a basket muzzle before re-introducing group play. It also means you should have her playing with one dog...then two... and gradually increasing the number, NOT throwing her into a group. It also means selecting appropriate adult dogs for her to play. And being aware of resources and not letting them interrupt play.

What did your instructor suggest? It sounds like a self control class is what she needs... but that this one might not be appropriate.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

RedDogs said:


> My question is "WHY did the instructor allow playtime in a self control class?"


That's exactly what went through my mind!

I would suggest finding a new training class that doesn't allow adolescent dogs to run around and play. Especially when there are toys involved!


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## Noey (Feb 26, 2009)

I agree with what is said and I also think since the bulldog seems to be the issue, twice – no other dog, see how she plays without him in a group and perhaps try and introduce single play with just them. Throw the ball to one (in a controlled way on leash) allow "one" to get it, remove it and throw it to the other. So your gal learns to share. But I do think the trainer needs to be guiding and if the trainer is lacking on this front - you need a new trainer.

Is the billdog the smallest in class? compared to the other pups?


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## turtle66 (Feb 19, 2010)

Thank you for all the great advice!
The instructor is allowing some play time "to get the steam off" so that the dogs are able to sniff each other. We gradually started with play time over these last weeks - we are at the end of the class. Well, you guys are right: "Impulse control" is what she needs....But she does play permanently with other dogs in day care without ANY issues (but no balls - no food....) and she was playing (even without leash) with the bulldog 5 minutes before it happened the second time (both dogs were early in class, so we had some extra time) and they did well together (again no ball - no food). The bulldog is the smallest dog in the class. Well - I left the class yesterday and I am not sure If I will take her to class next week. Again - so far - she is fine in doggy parks with fetching balls with other dogs (no foods involved) and they all love her at daycare, because she is social and not aggressive at all. 
The ball got thrown in by accident from another dog owner at the end of the class - this was NOT the instructors idea at all and he apologized for that. I am in contact with the instructor, he wanted to call me today (after class) to talk about it. He also recommended the book 'Mine!' which I ordered. I still think he is a great instructor (we did Puppy Kindergarden, Basic Manners and CGC at that place and Lilly did great), so this fighting is really something new for us...but well thanks to you, I have already great ideas how we can work on that.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

The book "Mine" is excellent! I think you will get a lot from it. By the way, your girl is beautiful!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

turtle66 said:


> Thank you for all the great advice!
> The instructor is allowing some play time "to get the steam off" so that the dogs are able to sniff each other. We gradually started with play time over these last weeks - we are at the end of the class. Well, you guys are right: "Impulse control" is what she needs....But she does play permanently with other dogs in day care without ANY issues (but no balls - no food....) and she was playing (even without leash) with the bulldog 5 minutes before it happened the second time (both dogs were early in class, so we had some extra time) and they did well together (again no ball - no food). The bulldog is the smallest dog in the class. Well - I left the class yesterday and I am not sure If I will take her to class next week. Again - so far - she is fine in doggy parks with fetching balls with other dogs (no foods involved) and they all love her at daycare, because she is social and not aggressive at all.
> The ball got thrown in by accident from another dog owner at the end of the class - this was NOT the instructors idea at all and he apologized for that. I am in contact with the instructor, he wanted to call me today (after class) to talk about it. He also recommended the book 'Mine!' which I ordered. I still think he is a great instructor (we did Puppy Kindergarden, Basic Manners and CGC at that place and Lilly did great), so this fighting is really something new for us...but well thanks to you, I have already great ideas how we can work on that.


I took an 'Impulse Control' class with my Towhee, and while she did learn a bit one of the things I need her to know is to look to me for instruction when she is unsure .. the instructor made me ignore her while walking around a ring and resulted in Towhee just squatting and peeing after a while .. I never did go back. 

I guess what I am saying is if you don't think the class is serving your best interests, don't go back - even if if seemed like a good idea at the time.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I wouldn't let her play loose in those situations. It's a high stress thing and having a toy or food involved is going to cause those sorts of problems. Could also be the bulldog rubs her the wrong way somehow. My dogs have had different issues with different breeds, usually from being attacked or pestered. Ticket doesn't like shelties, so I watch him around them. His first meetings with the breed did not go over well, both shelties were quite rude and the second one took a mouthful of hair... I don't expect him to like them, but he has to behave himself.

Lana


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

Yes, you want to set up your dog for success; and the owner of the bulldog too--it doesn't want to begin to associate all goldens or all big dogs as intimidating.

It could be that your golden hasn't learned proper bite inhibition, or, being the age that it is, is being a bit of a bully--you said she is submissive, and here is the smallest dog in the class, one that she can be in charge of because of her larger size. Be careful, because if that bulldog wanted to put a hurtin' hold on her, those jaws are powerful and if it retaliated, it would not be pretty.

I agree with those that controlled play at this point--introducing one, two, three, and so on dogs, is best. Also, you need to bring your A game--and remind others to do the same, right from the get-go--no balls, treats or other resources to guard thrown unexpectedly. You have a big responsibility, and it certainly seems like you know that, and good luck to you and your golden.


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## turtle66 (Feb 19, 2010)

Again - thanks to you all I do have now a pretty good idea where to start to work.
1) Be more careful in those groups and not throwing her into everything right away. 

2) To learn more about resource guarding. I am looking forward to read the recommended book "mine!'. I also just got an e-mail from our instructor. He is pretty sure it is guarding even though Lilly is fine with removing food bowls and favorite toys at home. A lots of dogs have this guarding just with very special things like chicken or other yummy treats which come out during classes, he says.
When we play with Lilly she does have a great bite inhibition. Her teeth touch our skin thankfully very soft and it really did not look like an accident when she was bit the poor bulldog - unfortunately there really was intention to bite...

3) Lilly also has (I guess) typical adolescent problem in terms of her status and range to other dogs. Rappwizard is very right on that one. She seems to be bully now with smaller dogs. The first time in her life that there are dogs smaller than her. That will be something else to work on...to create a good amount of confidence for her and a good way to be playful with little dogs.

4) Dog biting can happen easily, everywhere and even in good mannered dogs. It might not take much. Close supervision is the answer!

Thanks for all your help!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

If any one of my dogs thought that some treats belonged to him and a strange dog grabbed them up, they would likely have the same reaction as your dog did. None of my dogs have a problem with me taking anything from them, but in their mind me taking something from them is completely different from another dog taking something.


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## Stircrazy (Nov 30, 2009)

my first thoughs were to wonder what kind of signals the bulldog is sending out. could be the bull dog is the instagater not the golden.

Steve


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I will guess there a six dogs in the class - six dogs, six owners, maybe a child or two sitting off to the side, an instructor, and possibly an assistant. There are also probably dogs in another part of the facility, with their owners and family waiting for the next class. The space is probably not very large. 

So now, after being restrained for 30 to 45 minutes, and eating a lot of peanut butter treats and hot dogs, the instructor throws a toy and gives the nod for the dogs to play . . . . what would you expect would happen . . . . its like letting a group of 9 year old boys have a pillow fight. Sure, they'll release their energy - but I promise, one of them will get hurt. 

So you not only went back once for this - you went back twice. And now the issue is your dog's issue. 

I honestly think this trainer doesn't have sufficient experience with dogs. He or she may love them, and may have read a few good books, and probably has done an excellent job training her own dog. However, he or she lacks good judgment. 

What the instructor should have said was: "Class, before you go home tonight, take your dogs for a good walk to release all this energy . . . ."
:no:


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## turtle66 (Feb 19, 2010)

I guess those last 3 posts should make me feel better - I believe Loisiana can be right with her treat theory - I do have the same feelings too, especially when I share Lilly's treats with other dogs in the dog park. But these treats are just normal kibbles, that's why I thing both accidents could have been originated with resource guarding by my pup.

I am not sure about the signals the bulldog sent out before bitten by my golden. But than again - Lilly was injuring the other dog, so I have to take it seriously. 

To Marty's mom:
Not the instructor was throwing the ball but one of the other dog owners. The instructor was later on apologizing that he didn't go to the ball right away. The first bite was at the end of the class and you're right: It would have been better from the instructor to say to walk the dog after the class instead of playing with 9 dogs in this room with all that good smell...

But the 2nd bite was the week after before the class even started. And I really should have been more careful with Lilly's red barn treats in my pocket - when I lost some of them (while sitting down in my chair), a Schnauzer came first to grab some treats and nothing happened (because my golden didn't pay attention?!). Unfortunately she paid attention when the bulldog came ...

I still do not think our instructor is bad. We have to rethink those play sessions - but I really believe that our trainer is doing a great job. He got trained by Jean Donaldson and is highly recommended in our area, so I do really do not want to blame him for this accidents.


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

turtle66 said:


> I still do not think our instructor is bad. We have to rethink those play sessions - but I really believe that our trainer is doing a great job. He got trained by Jean Donaldson and is highly recommended in our area, so I do really do not want to blame him for this accidents.


I hate to ask this but - if he is that knowledgeable then why isn't he giving you advice and helping to work things out between the bulldog and Lilly? It just seems if he was doing his job you wouldn't need help from the experts on the forum.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Sounds like she needs to learn an awesome leave it (so she knows that backing off fallen food or toys - even if another dog is eating it/playing with it - is more rewarding for her then righting for it). An awesome recall is good, too, so you can call her out of brewing trouble.

Sounds like that group class play group has too much potential for triggering the unwanted behavior right now. How many toys are down? When I do play groups in my early puppy class, I may have 5 pups on the floor at once, but 25 toys and nothing that's considered a "favorite" by any of the dogs. I want toys there so they don't fixate on body slam games, but I want enough toys so that they feel less like they have to guard the one ball, etc.


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## turtle66 (Feb 19, 2010)

> hate to ask this but - if he is that knowledgeable then why isn't he giving you advice and helping to work things out between the bulldog and Lilly? It just seems if he was doing his job you wouldn't need help from the experts on the forum.


Well - that is true; so far he answered my e-mail but did not call back, which he promised, so I am starting to get disappointed...



> Sounds like that group class play group has too much potential for triggering the unwanted behavior right now. How many toys are down?


Usually there are NO toys around, we haven't had toys around even in puppy kindergarten. The ball was thrown in by another dog owner...

I started to work really seriously on "leave it/ drop it", and Lilly learns really fast. It took her 2 times to figure out to leave her favorite bone immediately to get good treats. Today she was not even taking her bone in first place but waiting for the good treats right away


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

turtle66 said:


> Well - that is true; so far he answered my e-mail but did not call back, which he promised, so I am starting to get disappointed...
> 
> 
> Usually there are NO toys around, we haven't had toys around even in puppy kindergarten. The ball was thrown in by another dog owner...
> ...


That's very good--if you can practice with distractions around--go in front of a pet supermarket, or a Starbucks, or even out in your neighborhood when you know other people are walking their dogs--begin to increase the complexity. I have been guilty of this, as well as so many other people, that when I think my dog is capable of doing something, and then I go out and public and find that she bombs on me, I realize that we're great inside the house, or the yard, with no distractions, but that outside, with distractions, she has lost her brain. So work on the "leave it/drop it" in a variety of places if you can--and begin in small steps. JMHO


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Marty's Mom said:


> So now, after being restrained for 30 to 45 minutes, and eating a lot of peanut butter treats and hot dogs, the instructor throws a toy and gives the nod for the dogs to play . . . . what would you expect would happen . . . . its like letting a group of 9 year old boys have a pillow fight. Sure, they'll release their energy - but I promise, one of them will get hurt.
> :no:


All dogs going after one toy certainly can be a recipe for disaster, but why are you so against dog-dog play at the end of a class?


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## turtle66 (Feb 19, 2010)

> if you can practice with distractions around--go in front of a pet supermarket, or a Starbucks, or even out in your neighborhood when you know other people are walking their dogs--begin to increase the complexity. I have been guilty of this, as well as so many other people, that when I think my dog is capable of doing something, and then I go out and public and find that she bombs on me, I realize that we're great inside the house, or the yard, with no distractions, but that outside, with distractions, she has lost her brain. So work on the "leave it/drop it" in a variety of places if you can--and begin in small steps.


Very good advice - this is so true and so easy to forget and IT IS HARDER to take the time to practice in those distraction area's...
I also contacted our day care facility and they were so great and and promised to watch her closely and to work on her confidence with other dogs whenever possible.

Heike


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

turtle66 said:


> Very good advice - this is so true and so easy to forget and IT IS HARDER to take the time to practice in those distraction area's...
> I also contacted our day care facility and they were so great and and promised to watch her closely and to work on her confidence with other dogs whenever possible.
> 
> Heike


I might have missed it if you said this earlier, but have the daycare people ever commented on her guarding toys? She may not be biting other dogs, but if the staff is skilled in reading dog body language/behavior, they should be able to recognize more subtle guarding behaviors -- things like a head flip if your dog has a toy and another dog gets too close, or charging off other dogs if they come too close, etc. 

I'd really want to know if she's practicing the behavior at day care. If they're going to "watch her closely," I'd also want to know WHAT they're going to do if they see guarding. How will they handle it? I'd find out what they're planning to do to build her confidence around other dogs. And honestly, if she's really THAT submissive to other dogs, there's a good chance she's not having that much fun at daycare, but rather, is spending the day feeling picked on. Just food for thought. Daycare isn't always the right choice for all dogs during different stages of their social/emotional development. Just make sure that the daycare participation isn't contributing to her behavioral issues!


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> All dogs going after one toy certainly can be a recipe for disaster, but why are you so against dog-dog play at the end of a class?


In response to your question, I am "for" using good judgment. If the instructor is teaching an exercise that involves the interaction two or more dogs and their owners, and if the instructor has a good sense of the temperment of the dogs he or she will use in the exercise, I am "for" that. However, what was described shows inexperience on the part of the instructor. 

It doesn't matter who threw the ball. What happened was bound to occur under the conditions described - and the instructor is responsible.


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## turtle66 (Feb 19, 2010)

> might have missed it if you said this earlier, but have the daycare people ever commented on her guarding toys? She may not be biting other dogs, but if the staff is skilled in reading dog body language/behavior, they should be able to recognize more subtle guarding behaviors -- things like a head flip if your dog has a toy and another dog gets too close, or charging off other dogs if they come too close, etc


The daycare does not have any mobile toys around. All play stations are not mobile, so I guess they cannot see guarding. But I did see the more subtle guarding behavior you described last weekend in the doggy park. 3 dogs were playing with a ball, she got it and flipped her head and went away from the other dogs. It took a while that she came back to us and dropped the ball - no stiffness or growling here, but like you said: Subtle guarding behavior.



> I'd find out what they're planning to do to build her confidence around other dogs. And honestly, if she's really THAT submissive to other dogs, there's a good chance she's not having that much fun at daycare, but rather, is spending the day feeling picked on. Just food for thought.


When I talked to the daycare people they were planning to work on her confidence with encouraging/praising her when she plays with other dogs she likes. She seems to me pretty happy when she goes to daycare, always tails up and wagging. When I have time to watch her (you won't believe it - they do have web cams) she does well, too. But then again it is time to re-think. She was definitely less submissive when she was a little puppy. It was always very funny to see her to go up to all kinds of dogs and play. The way how she was approaching you could tell that she thought, she was the best, strongest even though she was just 20 or 30 pounds and the other dog was much bigger. It was hilarious. Thankfully - almost all the dogs played nicely with our puppy (or ignored her). But may be something happened during long day care days...

I have to admit that I like the idea to have the dog home tired after a long 10 -12 hour work shift....but well, it is time to re-think.

We started day hikes for her once a week just recently and she really seemed to LOVE it. I just liked the idea to have someone coming over to our house, pick her up, go play at a more than 1000 acres dog park with 4 - 6 other dogs, get rinsed after 2 -3 hrs play time if necessary and brought back to our home. I talked to them, too and they feel that she is playing very happily with this group. Her best friend is a little puppy and they play really nicely together. No guarding seen, but they mentioned that one other dog likes to play and hold sticks and Lilly is right on and does hold the other end of the stick pretty well...Is this already guarding we have to interrupt? It sounds like playing to me (no stiffness etc involved).

There is a low quality picture from both holding the stick attached and two more with her day hike group.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

The picture of her pulling on the other end of the stick is not guarding. She is playing. My dogs do this all the time. 

The day hike group is a great idea. They look like they get along well. I think most dogs would do better with an outing like this .


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## turtle66 (Feb 19, 2010)

Well - thanks to you guys - I increased her day hike outings to 2 times a week. That way she will go to day care just 1 or 2 times a week....

Thanks for all your help,

Heike


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