# What food do you feed?



## Cari (Sep 19, 2012)

Diamond right now but looking into Acana.


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## Catalina (Jan 14, 2009)

We've tried various foods and find that our boys do very well with Fromm. Blue Buffalo just didn't work for them at all. Their coats are shiny, their eyes are bright and they have lots of energy.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Mine eat FROMM 4 star- Chicken a la Veg or Surf n'Turf primarily as their kibble. THK, Grandma Lucy's, or SOJO's as a topper/ treat. Homemade jerky treats. Tons of fresh fruit/veggies/meat


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

We feed Acana Wild Prairie. For about a year.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

I feed raw, and have been for 18 years


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I feed Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach to my one and Pro Plan Chicken/Rice small breed to my other


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Advice for if ur gonna feed raw some good advice to save time is to go to your source every 2 or 3 weeks, get all your meat and then divide it up into a plastic bag for each day. Pull a bag out if the freezer to thaw each morning and feed


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Oh and the only kibbles I'd feed are back 2 basics, evo red meat formula, Fromm, and earthborn holistics


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I am feeding both my guys Nutrisource Adult (chicken & rice). Bertie eats half PP Puppy, half Nutrisource. After he finishes the bag, I'm probably going to feed 1/2 PP Performance to him while continuing to feed both guys Nutrisource Adult.


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## Keragold (May 9, 2008)

Petcurean's GO! Fit + Free for three of my guys, and their NOW FRESH Senior for my little JRT who has pancreatitis issues.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Joey was on Fromm, but has now successfully been on pro plan skin + coat for two years.


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## Jesse'sGirl7407 (Jan 17, 2013)

Fromm- right now I don't do the gold or 4star just their regular adult food because it's cheaper so it pleases my wallet and my hubby(who thinks I'm crazy for feeding our animals as well as I do) lol


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## dogloverforlife (Feb 17, 2013)

I was reading about feed trialed foods and just want to know how I find what brands have been fed in feed trials?


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

dogloverforlife said:


> I was reading about feed trialed foods and just want to know how I find what brands have been fed in feed trials?


I don't trust these feed trials because the crappiest foods have a lot more money than smaller but generally higher quality foods such as Fromm. They are also generally inaccurate, for example hills diet in a food trial came up top for Digestive excellence but in reality their foods came up top because they are like 70% corn, which is not fully digested in a dogs system so therefore hardens poops as does it contain beat pulp which also hardens poops. Hills has the whole system in their pockets along with abit from pedigree IAMS and purina. Hills is over 50 percent corn from what I can tell (it's first ingredient and based on when you break it up in water) they offer us, vet students scholarships, they sponsor all of our few mandatory nutrition courses and about 1/3 of elective nutrition courses. They also sponsor many studies anything related to diet and health they sponsor


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

We feed BB LBP. Have since day 1. 

I am actually thinking of switching when we go to adult food. He gets red eyes randomly and i wonder if its a food thing. 


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## dogloverforlife (Feb 17, 2013)

Tuco said:


> I don't trust these feed trials because the crappiest foods have a lot more money than smaller but generally higher quality foods such as Fromm. They are also generally inaccurate, for example hills diet in a food trial came up top for Digestive excellence but in reality their foods came up top because they are like 70% corn, which is not fully digested in a dogs system so therefore hardens poops as does it contain beat pulp which also hardens poops. Hills has the whole system in their pockets along with abit from pedigree IAMS and purina. Hills is over 50 percent corn from what I can tell (it's first ingredient and based on when you break it up in water) they offer us, vet students scholarships, they sponsor all of our few mandatory nutrition courses and about 1/3 of elective nutrition courses. They also sponsor many studies anything related to diet and health they sponsor
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thank you very much. That is all good to know! I will not worry to much if the food I feed has been apart of these trials now.


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

Make your priority the ash content for long term health. Someone mentioned B2B, Earthborn and Evo, all three are too high in ash and I wouldn't use them if they were free. B2B and Earthborn have some formulas loaded with manufactured protein. B2B uses powdered hog hide as well as pea protein.

Personally, if you have 4 dogs to feed I would use something cheaper than Dr. Tim's, although it is one of the best foods you can buy.

Don't dismiss by-products because the by-products in pet foods are extremely high quality and very low ash.

Four dogs on Dr. Tim's is gonna cost you. I really don't like Nutrisource at all and probably would pick something from the local feed store like Black Gold Signature, Hi-Standard Premium and the new SportMix Wholesomes.

If I could find a food like Dr. Tim's with Chicken By-Product meal I would switch.

There are feeding trials and then there are real feeding trials, as in foods used for years in competition. AAFCO feeding trials are fine, and better than most foods that are made on the computer and then sold with no testing.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

WasChampionFan said:


> Make your priority the ash content for long term health. Someone mentioned B2B, Earthborn and Evo, all three are too high in ash and I wouldn't use them if they were free. B2B and Earthborn have some formulas loaded with manufactured protein. B2B uses powdered hog hide as well as pea protein.
> 
> Personally, if you have 4 dogs to feed I would use something cheaper than Dr. Tim's, although it is one of the best foods you can buy.
> 
> ...


Your clear dr Tim's agenda is obvious


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

Tuco said:


> Your clear dr Tim's agenda is obvious
> 
> Your complete lack of knowledge is obvious. Your are factually incorrect nearly 100% of the time.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Their ash contents are perfectly normal perhaps on the high side but anything under 9% is good. Ash contains lots of the calcium and minerals and most importantly most of its contents are from meat and great for dogs with kidney disease and large breed puppies. Dr Tim's contains rice flour, beat pulp and canola oil, all controversial ingredients. Although I would usually never recommend a food with pea protein, b2b is a food that has no starch or grain whatsoever, one of the only of its kind and with a 70% meat content and a high animal protein content the pea protein I feel still leaves it at a higher animal protein ratio then most dog foods


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

WasChampionFan said:


> Tuco said:
> 
> 
> > Your clear dr Tim's agenda is obvious
> ...


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

When a dog food is in excess of 13% ash you should be concerned in most situations because then much more of the ash is from vegetable madder and especially in foods with more grain it can be harmful, the above foods are extremely high in animal protein and even in excess of 13% it's not panic worthy 


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

WasChampionFan said:


> I really don't like Nutrisource at all and probably would pick something from the local feed store....


Ok, I'm getting confused here and went and searched the forum to doublecheck in case I was imagining things. 

You do not like Nutrisource at all, but you _have_ recommended this dog food. I found your posts saying so. 

I remember chuckling when I made the switch (based on a suggestion from Bertie's breeder) about feeding my dog ANY food that you have pushed. :


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Megora said:


> Ok, I'm getting confused here and went and searched the forum to doublecheck in case I was imagining things.
> 
> You do not like Nutrisource at all, but you _have_ recommended this dog food. I found your posts saying so.
> 
> I remember chuckling when I made the switch (based on a suggestion from Bertie's breeder) about feeding my dog ANY food that you have pushed. :


Lol


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Some people just disapear from threads when people sensibly contradict them with good case points


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

Tuco said:


> When a dog food is in excess of 13% ash you should be concerned in most situations because then much more of the ash is from vegetable madder and especially in foods with more grain it can be harmful, the above foods are extremely high in animal protein and even in excess of 13% it's not panic worthy
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


What is "vegetable madder "?


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

Tuco said:


> When a dog food is in excess of 13% ash you should be concerned in most situations because then much more of the ash is from vegetable madder and especially in foods with more grain it can be harmful, the above foods are extremely high in animal protein and even in excess of 13% it's not panic worthy
> 
> That is completely not true. Ash comes from bone mostly, you moron, high phosporous from muscle meat as well. All the really high ash foods are high protein, grain free foods.
> 
> ...


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

Megora said:


> Ok, I'm getting confused here and went and searched the forum to doublecheck in case I was imagining things.
> 
> You do not like Nutrisource at all, but you _have_ recommended this dog food. I found your posts saying so.
> 
> I remember chuckling when I made the switch (based on a suggestion from Bertie's breeder) about feeding my dog ANY food that you have pushed. :


I did recommend it but I don't anymore. Perhaps I should have said something?


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

reported post issue has been taken care of.. Thanks everyone.


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

Rob's GRs said:


> reported post issue has been taken care of.. Thanks everyone.


It is obvious that a number of you dislike WCF and take every opportunity to trash him and respond to him disrespectfully. I guess you are quite pleased with yourselves that you got him banned. Perhaps you should review some of your own posts and at least apologize and perhaps ask to get him reinstated.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

artbuc said:


> It is obvious that a number of you dislike WCF and take every opportunity to trash him and respond to him disrespectfully.


You need to understand the culture of this board. 

People here don't want information and facts that force them to THINK. They're here seeking a pat on the back. 

When people ask a question they don't want answers, they want validation of the decision they've already made, which these days is usually driven by political correctness. They don't want to have somebody show them that they really didn't research things as thoroughly as they should have, and as a result have made less than optimal decisions.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

WasChampionFan said:


> Tuco said:
> 
> 
> > When a dog food is in excess of 13% ash you should be concerned in most situations because then much more of the ash is from vegetable madder and especially in foods with more grain it can be harmful, the above foods are extremely high in animal protein and even in excess of 13% it's not panic worthy
> ...


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

Tuco said "Ash has also been proven to have a high mineral content."

What?! Of course it does considering ash is mineral by definition. That is like saying it has been proven that the ocean contains water. Most ash comes from bones and mineral additives, not plant matter or plant madder. Why don't you drop this issue? You are starting to look silly. Moderator, please close this thread.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

I agree with Artbuc. WasChampionFan should not be banned. This is a Forum,,,,,a place were evereyone HAS THEIR OWN OPINION. We can all agree to disagree!!! I've seen plenty of people on the Forum get snipy,,,,,,why can't he?


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

It is all about following board rules. Nothing more, nothing less. We mentioned in the below link that we are no longer going to be lenient with members that break rules. 

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...4-thread-not-open-discussion.html#post2207002


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

Rob's GRs said:


> It is all about following board rules. Nothing more, nothing less. We mentioned in the below link that we are no longer going to be lenient with members that break rules.
> 
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...4-thread-not-open-discussion.html#post2207002


 
And there will be no changing of our decision in this, or any other matter we act upon.


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

Rob's GRs said:


> It is all about following board rules. Nothing more, nothing less. We mentioned in the below link that we are no longer going to be lenient with members that break rules.
> 
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...4-thread-not-open-discussion.html#post2207002


Are you able to divulge the reason(s) Rule 9 is required?


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

This was created years ago when banned members would rejoin the board again and attack the board & members with hate messages.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

He'll be back. He has a history on other forums of coming back under different names. Mods can check the IP address but that won't matter if he goes through a VPN. He probably is on this forum under more than one name already. I've seen him on another forum where he was banned because he would bully other members by arguing with them under more than one name. 

Nobody got him banned. He called somebody a "moron" which was obviously just the icing on the cake. He got himself banned. The mods have made plenty of warnings in the past.


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

dogloverforlife said:


> I just switched my 3 big dogs to Nutrisource Performance. Emma, the Lab, has ate it before and done fine on it. The two hounds were on Hunter's Blend which had by products as the first ingredient.
> Patches the BC is eating Blue Buffalo Wilderness Salmon. She doesn't really seem to like it much. I just bought some Sojos that was on clearance for the best buy date getting close.
> I am really considering ordering Dr. Tim's Pursuit for all the dogs.
> It comes in a 44# bag and the ash is in the lower range whereas Nutrisource is 8.45%.
> I do plan to feed raw eventually, but just need to get my ducks in a row first.


 
Hi all, here is the OP let's see if we can bring this thread back on track.

Thanks


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

OK.....I've been feeding Murphy BrothersComplete..both red meat and fish. He likes it and has done great but I'm tired of having to order it on line and planning so I don't run short. I just bought two 5lb bags of Acana Pacifica and Ranchland. He loves both so I'm switching to make my life easier. Both are a good quality grain free foods. Good Luck !!


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## Goldens R Great (Aug 19, 2010)

I feed Rindy and Finn Acana Duck and Pear. They haven't been on it very long, but so far so good. To be honest I've never seen them so excited about a food before! :yummy:


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

I feed a raw diet. Not such a fan of dr Tim's and anaemaet (Ohio pet foods) I have seen representatives on other forums particularly the German sheppard forum get quite pushy. If I had to recommend some kibbles I'd say evo, back 2 basics, Fromm, perhaps acana (not a fan due to the inclusion of high protium legumes which have lowered animal protein percentages)


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Oh and earthborn 


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Tuco said:


> I have seen representatives on other forums particularly the German sheppard forum get pushy.....
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I think it's probably all the same person who gets around.... 


I'm sorry Was Champion Fan is banned, because I would have asked him why he is no longer supports Nutrisource. It doesn't matter necessarily, because my dogs do well on Nutrisource and quite enough people in the golden retriever world _who I respect_ feed this. It's not just me going off of what the breeders recommended as an alternative to Pro Plan. But I'm curious.


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## drloripalooza (Jan 7, 2012)

Wow, lots of kibbles I have never heard of here. Never heard of Nutrisource or Dr. Tim's. Well, I feed California Naturals Chicken Grain Free to my Lab/Pit and Toller/Golden, then the lower cal TOTW fish to my Cattle Dog/Pit who is too easy a keeper. My Golden has an extra-hepatic shunt so he gets Hills LD with the addition of a small cooked chicken burger. 

I have thought of switching the Lat/Pit's food to Fromm's or Taste of the Wild due to messy ears. Do any of you find that helps? So far coats and teeth are good. Do feed RMBs and fresh pig hooves on occasion.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

We are feeding Gibbs Earthborn, we rotate between the flavors and mix 50/50 but always mix with the lamb formula. Right now he has lamb + coastal catch. Teller gets Nutrisource Heartland, but we just started rotating and this bag he has the lamb formula.  Both foods have produced excellent coats, the dogs maintain weight, an seemingly like their food. I occasionally feed Dr Harvey's and that is a BIG favorite when I do! We fed Fromm LB Adult for a while but just couldn't maintain weights. 


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

Tuco said:


> I feed a raw diet. Not such a fan of dr Tim's and anaemaet (Ohio pet foods) I have seen representatives on other forums particularly the German sheppard forum get quite pushy. If I had to recommend some kibbles I'd say evo, back 2 basics, Fromm, perhaps acana (not a fan due to the inclusion of high protium legumes which have lowered animal protein percentages)
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I think this is the first time you mentioned Ohio Pet Foods. Do you know anything about that facility that gives you concern? Also, you do not like Annamaet or Dr Tim's because you thought their reps were pushy. Do you have specific concerns about the quality of their foods?

PS I totally agree with you re protium. I would never feed that to any dog:

http://chemistry.about.com/od/hydrogen/f/What-Is-Protium.htm


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I enjoy hearing other's thoughts on food they have fed and have personal experience with. I don't put any credence though on supposed facts that are put out there without substantiation. I would urge everyone to include links to those "facts". Otherwise, IMO, they are worthless.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

artbuc said:


> I think this is the first time you mentioned Ohio Pet Foods. Do you know anything about that facility that gives you concern? Also, you do not like Annamaet or Dr Tim's because you thought their reps were pushy. Do you have specific concerns about the quality of their foods?
> 
> PS I totally agree with you re protium. I would never feed that to any dog:
> 
> http://chemistry.about.com/od/hydrogen/f/What-Is-Protium.htm


I have no problem with the facilities, abit with the ingredients and I find that their reps , that i have seen, go abit too far, not as far as hills but still enough to push me away from the brand.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Personally, I could care less about the personalities of sales reps. I care about manufacturers track record with recalls, ingredients.... where they are sourced from, and how my dogs do on the product.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Personally, I could care less about the personalities of sales reps. I care about manufacturers track record with recalls, ingredients.... where they are sourced from, and how my dogs do on the product.


Even based purely on track record it's not that high on my list


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Why.... cite your concerns. Links to the fda on recalls, links to where ingredients are sourced, whatever. Your opinion doesn't really mean anything more than someone else's. You need to cite FACTS.


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## the S team (Dec 8, 2009)

We feed a brand called Victor. Sara eats their chicken/lamb formula that is not grain free and Scout eats their grain free all life stages formula. We love it and feel it is the best bang for our buck. You can't get it everywhere. We also adore the small feed store where we buy it. Not the only reason we feed it but it helps. 

Victor Super Premium Dog Food


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

Tuco said:


> Even based purely on track record it's not that high on my list
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


As I recall, OPF is EU certified and has never, I repeat, never had a recall. I would say it is arguably the best dog manufacturing plant in the USA.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> OPF is EU certified and has never, I repeat, never had a recall


I have a possibly dumb question to ask here, but what is the big deal about being EU certified? I've seen a couple people (maybe you and WCF) repeating this a number of times like it is the highest mark? And I'm a little confused. 

Especially keeping in mind the fact that Europeans are getting upset right now discovering what is actually in their food...  

I read that the EU requires that the food be labeled if the ingredience are fit for human consumption or not. And labeled as unfit for human consumption if the food contains byproducts (like feet, beaks, etc). 

Of course I hardly think any of that matters since raw food people feed carcasses to their dogs. And tripe. : 

Then agin, tripe might be a different category considering what's on the menu in many European countries. Blech. :yuck:

The other thing too - keep in mind the recalls are not always "bad". If a company is recalling food because of a few complaints, that means that they do take the quality of their product seriously - especially considering the expense and publicity of recalls. 

I work in the automotive industry, and just the hint of a recall is enough to send shudders through the building. And put companies out of business.


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

Megora said:


> I have a possibly dumb question to ask here, but what is the big deal about being EU certified? I've seen a couple people (maybe you and WCF) repeating this a number of times like it is the highest mark? And I'm a little confused.
> 
> Especially keeping in mind the fact that Europeans are getting upset right now discovering what is actually in their food...
> 
> ...


Compare this to AAFCO which allows the use of dead animals:

http://ec.europa.eu/food/food/animalnutrition/labelling/docs/pet_food_code_20102011_en.pdf

Unless I am wrong, all ingredients must be fit for human consumption.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

artbuc said:


> Compare this to AAFCO which allows the use of dead animals:


I read that when I googled it the other day, but still I'm wondering about those dog foods which INCLUDE bones in the kibble. Those are not for human consumption! But they are included because somebody out there felt that those bones are good for the dogs.

You even have raw feeders who give whole carcasses - bones and everything - to their dogs. That is most definitely not for human consumption. : 

I'd like to think we can trust dog food companies when they say they do not use dead animals (dogs and cats) in the batter. The labels (I believe) have to identify everything that goes into the kibble. So if it has a vague "meat" identifier on the back of the bag, then there is a question of whether your dog is a cannibal. If it says "chicken" it may include pieces of the chicken that are not fit for human consumption, but are fine for dogs? 

That's how I understand it?


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

Megora said:


> I read that when I googled it the other day, but still I'm wondering about those dog foods which INCLUDE bones in the kibble. Those are not for human consumption! But they are included because somebody out there felt that those bones are good for the dogs.
> 
> You even have raw feeders who give whole carcasses - bones and everything - to their dogs. That is most definitely not for human consumption. :
> 
> ...


I have no agenda. Feed your pet whatever you want. BTW, bones are fit for human consumption. Lots of Paleo/Primal folks make their own bone broth and eat sardines along with their crunchy bones.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

artbuc said:


> I have no agenda. Feed your pet whatever you want. BTW, bones are fit for human consumption. Lots of Paleo/Primal folks make their own bone broth and eat sardines along with their crunchy bones.


I wasn't accusing you of having an agenda. I just was trying to figure out why people make that EU certification the ultimate supreme for feeding their dogs. I looked it up and was confuzzled when I saw what it entails. 

My mom's family was polish and czech, and as I remember my mom describing some of the meals her mom and grandparents would make... :yuck::yuck::yuck::yuck: Blood soup. Stuffed cow intestines.... need I say more. Europeans are crazy.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

stealle said:


> He'll be back. He has a history on other forums of coming back under different names. Mods can check the IP address but that won't matter if he goes through a VPN. He probably is on this forum under more than one name already. I've seen him on another forum where he was banned because he would bully other members by arguing with them under more than one name.
> 
> Nobody got him banned. He called somebody a "moron" which was obviously just the icing on the cake. He got himself banned. The mods have made plenty of warnings in the past.



There was a member here (who is probably back again) who had 6 different accounts and his main one under all different IP's. He had a history of personally attacking me and made those accounts specifically for that purpose though I will not supply the name of that person publicly. 

I found WCF rather helpful. At first, I couldnt stand him, but hes helped me a great deal with my dogs. People need to give respect in order to get respect and I have seen snarky comments come from one direction and it was returned. While I have no problems with either members in question we all need to learn to get alone IMO


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## tobysmommy (Jan 9, 2011)

Let's please stay on topic. This thread is not about the actions and/or bannings of members, but about what to feed our beloved Goldens. Let's focus on that. Thanks.


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## dogloverforlife (Feb 17, 2013)

Does anyone feed Canidae ALS anymore?


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

I feel that looking at recalls is not reliable on judging the reliability and quality control of the plants as its often out of their control. For example, can't remember the company but there is a very recent thread on here about a recall. The recall was because of parsley that may have become contaminated PREVIOUSLY to the arrival of the plant. That parsley was recalled after it hit store shelves, I fail to see why eu certification is nessesary, many brands do not sell there or it's just not realistically nessesary. When we lived in Denmark people stayed away from German and eu kibbles, they looked for American and us certified foods, perhaps abit has changed in that decade but I can't imagine that much. I believe champion foods is probably one of the best plants in North America, but I don't like the food as much as others because of the inclusion of chickpeas and lentils in newer recipes, raising the plant protein. My reasoning for disliking Ohio is because of their foods ingredients, and the distance their reps go. My ingredient concern is mainly that its so high in carbohydrates and is full of grain and starch, wether I'm on kibble or not I don't want rice flour as the second ingredient. The inclusion of beat pulp quite high on the list along with the canola oil is just icing on the cake. Not a fan of canola oil at all simply because my uncle and family have a history with Monsanto, I don't want to support a company that in my eyes is pure evil and has done so many things to mess my uncle and his direct family's life up


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

dogloverforlife said:


> Does anyone feed Canidae ALS anymore?


I haven't heard of so many people feeding it any more


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

Tuco said:


> I feel that looking at recalls is not reliable on judging the reliability and quality control of the plants as its often out of their control. For example, can't remember the company but there is a very recent thread on here about a recall. The recall was because of parsley that may have become contaminated PREVIOUSLY to the arrival of the plant. That parsley was recalled after it hit store shelves, I fail to see why eu certification is nessesary, many brands do not sell there or it's just not realistically nessesary. When we lived in Denmark people stayed away from German and eu kibbles, they looked for American and us certified foods, perhaps abit has changed in that decade but I can't imagine that much. I believe champion foods is probably one of the best plants in North America, but I don't like the food as much as others because of the inclusion of chickpeas and lentils in newer recipes, raising the plant protein. My reasoning for disliking Ohio is because of their foods ingredients, and the distance their reps go. My ingredient concern is mainly that its so high in carbohydrates and is full of grain and starch, wether I'm on kibble or not I don't want rice flour as the second ingredient. The inclusion of beat pulp quite high on the list along with the canola oil is just icing on the cake. Not a fan of canola oil at all simply because my uncle and family have a history with Monsanto, I don't want to support a company that in my eyes is pure evil and has done so many things to mess my uncle and his direct family's life up
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Very compelling arguments. I am convinced.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

My reasoning for disliking Ohio is because of their foods ingredients, and the distance their reps go. My ingredient concern is mainly that its so high in carbohydrates and is full of grain and starch, wether I'm on kibble or not I don't want rice flour as the second ingredient. The inclusion of beat pulp quite high on the list along with the canola oil is just icing on the cake. Not a fan of canola oil at all simply because my uncle and family have a history with Monsanto, I don't want to support a company that in my eyes is pure evil and has done so many things to mess my uncle and his direct family's life up


Sent from Petguide.com Free App[/QUOTE]

As you know, Dr Tim's is made by Ohio Pet Foods. Take a look at their GA. Adding the protein, fat, moisture, and ash leaves a carb amount of 24%. Please don't make blanket statements that are not necessarily true. That carb amount is in line with many grain free foods. Remember that grain free still have carbs.... just not grains.

Premium All Natural Pet Food | Dr. Tim's

And of course that's only one food.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Tuco said:


> I believe champion foods is probably one of the best plants in North America, but I don't like the food as much as others because of the inclusion of chickpeas and lentils in newer recipes, raising the plant protein.


I think that was info that a former member was leading everyone to believe. Please see the thread I just posted with the percentages of meat products. They include a small amount of legumes, just enough to be able to form the kibble (make it stick together). There is a ton of meat in the product. The crude protein is high at 38% (a little higher than I would prefer actually). Champion foods says it is 37% protein from meat products; only 1% from plant protein. Even if it was much less, let's say 30% protein from meat and 8% from plant protein, I wouldn't mind. That would still be plenty of meat protein along with highly digestible plant proteins. I haven't looked up chickpeas and lentils, but I posted a link awhile back stating that pea protein is very highly digestible and bioavailable to humans and even more so in canines.


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## msc (Nov 3, 2008)

Everyfood has its drawback(s) including Champion, and even raw.
There is no perfect food.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> My reasoning for disliking Ohio is because of their foods ingredients, and the distance their reps go. My ingredient concern is mainly that its so high in carbohydrates and is full of grain and starch, wether I'm on kibble or not I don't want rice flour as the second ingredient. The inclusion of beat pulp quite high on the list along with the canola oil is just icing on the cake. Not a fan of canola oil at all simply because my uncle and family have a history with Monsanto, I don't want to support a company that in my eyes is pure evil and has done so many things to mess my uncle and his direct family's life up
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


As you know, Dr Tim's is made by Ohio Pet Foods. Take a look at their GA. Adding the protein, fat, moisture, and ash leaves a carb amount of 24%. Please don't make blanket statements that are not necessarily true. That carb amount is in line with many grain free foods. Remember that grain free still have carbs.... just not grains.

Premium All Natural Pet Food | Dr. Tim's

And of course that's only one food.[/QUOTE]

24% carbohydrates is high for me, not only that but the sources of the carbs are not what I would like


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> My reasoning for disliking Ohio is because of their foods ingredients, and the distance their reps go. My ingredient concern is mainly that its so high in carbohydrates and is full of grain and starch, wether I'm on kibble or not I don't want rice flour as the second ingredient. The inclusion of beat pulp quite high on the list along with the canola oil is just icing on the cake. Not a fan of canola oil at all simply because my uncle and family have a history with Monsanto, I don't want to support a company that in my eyes is pure evil and has done so many things to mess my uncle and his direct family's life up
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


As you know, Dr Tim's is made by Ohio Pet Foods. Take a look at their GA. Adding the protein, fat, moisture, and ash leaves a carb amount of 24%. Please don't make blanket statements that are not necessarily true. That carb amount is in line with many grain free foods. Remember that grain free still have carbs.... just not grains.

Premium All Natural Pet Food | Dr. Tim's

And of course that's only one food.[/QUOTE]

Actually their carbohydrate percentages are all around 37% their lowest being the all life stages which is 34%. Please don't make blanket statements that aren't nessesarily true


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Tuco said:


> As you know, Dr Tim's is made by Ohio Pet Foods. Take a look at their GA. Adding the protein, fat, moisture, and ash leaves a carb amount of 24%. Please don't make blanket statements that are not necessarily true. That carb amount is in line with many grain free foods. Remember that grain free still have carbs.... just not grains.
> 
> Premium All Natural Pet Food | Dr. Tim's
> 
> And of course that's only one food.


Actually their carbohydrate percentages are all around 37% their lowest being the all life stages which is 34%. Please don't make blanket statements that aren't nessesarily true


Sent from Petguide.com Free App[/QUOTE]


How do you figure? Carb is determined by subtracting protein, fat, moisture, and ash from 100. Their lowest carb food is the momentum, not kinesis (their ALS). It's the one with the highest protein level. Using that, you have 35 (protein) + 25 (fat) + 10 (moisture) + 6 (ash)= 76. 100-76= 24 % carb.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Enough. Criticize pet foods all you want, but don't criticize each other.

Thank you.


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

GoldensGirl said:


> Enough. Criticize pet foods all you want, but don't criticize each other.
> 
> Thank you.


Correcting a person's mistakes is an important thing to do. I do not consider it to be a personal criticism. Many people come on this forum looking for reliable advice and assume all posters know what they are talking about. When a poster repeatedly makes incorrect calculations and conclusions and obviously does not understand how to read and interpret label information, it is important to set the record straight in a polite and respectful way, of course).


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## newport (Aug 8, 2011)

I give Lola a varied diet.... part raw... part dry.. and also dehydrated. I change it up each meal. She gets chicken one meal, turkey another, some beef on others and some fish. My feeling on this is that keeping a dog on a too stringent diet might Lead to Allergies. Lola does very well with the varied diet- I think she enjoys the different flavors. She has a beatiful coat and her skin is not flaky or itchy. I give her many supplements for coat, immune and general health. I do limit carbs and grains. Some of the grain free foods I feed her have potatoe and or chick pea so I figure she is getting some low carb there. But really I have her on a no grain diet.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Some interesting quotes from Dr. Wynn... certainly an expert in the field.

"
Bargain hunters aren’t the only ones whose dogs can benefit from diets that contain carbs. According to Susan G. Wynn, DVM, CVA, CVCH, AHG, “While dogs do not require the carbohydrates found in grains or potatoes or any other food, there are some instances where a dog still might derive benefit from them being there.”
Dr. Wynn recently completed a residency in nutrition at the University of Tennessee’s College of Veterinary Medicine, and in addition to private practice, lectures internationally on the topic of clinical nutrition and holistic medicine. She is also a fan of properly formulated carb- and/or grain-containing diets for dogs – except when contraindicated by an individual dog’s medical needs – because both carbs and grains offer certain benefits.
“For instance,” she says, “grains contain certain fibers that are beneficial for the growth of probiotic bacteria in the gut, and they also contain various required vitamins and minerals.”
Dr. Wynn also points out that grains, which have a lower fat content than meat, can be used in some cases as a “place-holder” in a home-prepared diet to help fill up a dog whose weight needs better control."

And from some other experts:
"
*“Ideal” amounts vary
*Ultimately, it will be up to your dog – and your observation skills – to determine what constitutes “too much” and “too little” carbohydrate in his diet; there is no such thing as an “ideal” percentage of carbs in a canine diet. It totally depends on the dog, say Sean Delaney, DVM, MS, DACVN, and Sally Perea, DVM, MS, DACVN, veterinary nutritionists with Natura Pet Products. Drs. Delaney and Perea agree that some dogs do well on lower carbohydrate foods and others do not; it depends on the individual
Dr. Wynn adds, “Different dogs digest grains in different ways. Some dogs have excellent stool quality when there are grains in the diet, and others don’t. As a species, the domestic dog does not have a single, consistent nutrient profile requirement.”

These are quotes taken from this article. Carbs Contribute the Bulk of Your Dog's Kibble (Even Many Grain-Free Foods) - Whole Dog Journal Article


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

artbuc said:


> Correcting a person's mistakes is an important thing to do. I do not consider it to be a personal criticism. Many people come on this forum looking for reliable advice and assume all posters know what they are talking about. When a poster repeatedly makes incorrect calculations and conclusions and obviously does not understand how to read and interpret label information, it is important to set the record straight in a polite and respectful way, of course).


It is absolutely appropriate to correct mistakes in a polite and respectful way, especially with appropriate references to back up opinions. Some recent posts were not in that spirit. People who disagree easily lose sight of the fact that others may have truth on their side and/or that truth may not be easily determined.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Actually their carbohydrate percentages are all around 37% their lowest being the all life stages which is 34%. Please don't make blanket statements that aren't nessesarily true
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
How do you figure? Carb is determined by subtracting protein, fat, moisture, and ash from 100. Their lowest carb food is the momentum, not kinesis (their ALS). It's the one with the highest protein level. Using that, you have 35 (protein) + 25 (fat) + 10 (moisture) + 6 (ash)= 76. 100-76= 24 % carb.[/QUOTE]

That's what their website says, here's what for pursuit
Protien: 34%
Fat:22% 
Carbs:37%
For the grain free it says
Protein:36%
Fat:20%
Carbs:36%

When you look at percentages of these 3 I do not believe you include moisture or ash



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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Some interesting quotes from Dr. Wynn... certainly an expert in the field.
> 
> "
> Bargain hunters aren’t the only ones whose dogs can benefit from diets that contain carbs. According to Susan G. Wynn, DVM, CVA, CVCH, AHG, “While dogs do not require the carbohydrates found in grains or potatoes or any other food, there are some instances where a dog still might derive benefit from them being there.”
> ...


I'm sure carbs can be helpful in a diet, I do feed alittle bit of sweet potato, biut many foods are far above 30% carbs, although they can help it shouldn't be that high


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

stealle said:


> I think that was info that a former member was leading everyone to believe. Please see the thread I just posted with the percentages of meat products. They include a small amount of legumes, just enough to be able to form the kibble (make it stick together). There is a ton of meat in the product. The crude protein is high at 38% (a little higher than I would prefer actually). Champion foods says it is 37% protein from meat products; only 1% from plant protein. Even if it was much less, let's say 30% protein from meat and 8% from plant protein, I wouldn't mind. That would still be plenty of meat protein along with highly digestible plant proteins. I haven't looked up chickpeas and lentils, but I posted a link awhile back stating that pea protein is very highly digestible and bioavailable to humans and even more so in canines.


I may have been incorrect, an unfortunate thing is that many companies do not say how much of each ingredient is in the food so you have to make educated guesses. When they said they were "replacing potato with chickpea and lentils" I assumed that the plant protein would go way up


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

stealle said:


> I think that was info that a former member was leading everyone to believe. Please see the thread I just posted with the percentages of meat products. They include a small amount of legumes, just enough to be able to form the kibble (make it stick together). There is a ton of meat in the product. The crude protein is high at 38% (a little higher than I would prefer actually). Champion foods says it is 37% protein from meat products; only 1% from plant protein. Even if it was much less, let's say 30% protein from meat and 8% from plant protein, I wouldn't mind. That would still be plenty of meat protein along with highly digestible plant proteins. I haven't looked up chickpeas and lentils, but I posted a link awhile back stating that pea protein is very highly digestible and bioavailable to humans and even more so in canines.


Could you link me?


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## msc (Nov 3, 2008)

You information is wrong.

Pursuit

Crude Protein 30%
Fat 20%

Premium All Natural Pet Food | Dr. Tim's


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

A quote from the above mentioned article, on how to calculate carb amount:

How can you tell whether a food contains “too much” total carbohydrate? For that matter, how can you tell at all how much carbohydrate a food contains? The guaranteed minimum percentages of protein and fat, and the maximum percentages of fiber and moisture, are required by law to appear on a pet food label. But only particularly interested owners are apt to learn the approximate carb content of a food; you’d have to either call the pet food maker and ask for this information, or do some math.
To roughly calculate the percentage of carbohydrate in a food, look at the guaranteed analysis on the label, and subtract the amount of protein, fat, moisture, and ash from 100 percent; the carb content is what’s left over. (You may have to contact the company to get the food’s ash content; it’s not required on the label, either.)

Also, please provide a link on what you say Dr Tim's site says as far as carb amount. I don't see any carb % listed. Premium All Natural Pet Food | Dr. Tim's


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Tuco said:


> I'm sure carbs can be helpful in a diet, I do feed alittle bit of sweet potato, biut many foods are far above 30% carbs, although they can help it shouldn't be that high
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That is your opinion, not fact, according to the nutritionists I quoted above and I'll include below.

"Ultimately, it will be up to your dog – and your observation skills – to determine what constitutes “too much” and “too little” carbohydrate in his diet; there is no such thing as an “ideal” percentage of carbs in a canine diet. It totally depends on the dog, say Sean Delaney, DVM, MS, DACVN, and Sally Perea, DVM, MS, DACVN, veterinary nutritionists with Natura Pet Products. Drs. Delaney and Perea agree that some dogs do well on lower carbohydrate foods and others do not; it depends on the individual
Dr. Wynn adds, “Different dogs digest grains in different ways. Some dogs have excellent stool quality when there are grains in the diet, and others don’t. As a species, the domestic dog does not have a single, consistent nutrient profile requirement.”


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> That is your opinion, not fact, according to the nutritionists I quoted above and I'll include below.
> 
> "Ultimately, it will be up to your dog – and your observation skills – to determine what constitutes “too much” and “too little” carbohydrate in his diet; there is no such thing as an “ideal” percentage of carbs in a canine diet. It totally depends on the dog, say Sean Delaney, DVM, MS, DACVN, and Sally Perea, DVM, MS, DACVN, veterinary nutritionists with Natura Pet Products. Drs. Delaney and Perea agree that some dogs do well on lower carbohydrate foods and others do not; it depends on the individual
> Dr. Wynn adds, “Different dogs digest grains in different ways. Some dogs have excellent stool quality when there are grains in the diet, and others don’t. As a species, the domestic dog does not have a single, consistent nutrient profile requirement.”


Nevertheless it has been shown that many carbohydrates have a significantly lower biological value than meats and even many veggies. Also dogs do not absorb as many nutrients and are harder to digest


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Either way I go to more of a natural approach and naturally they wouldn't be consuming any grain


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

msc said:


> You information is wrong.
> 
> Pursuit
> 
> ...


Guaranteed analysis is different from dry madder analysis which for an odd reason they do not include carbs, either way 37% is my guess and judging from Afew other websites dry madder analysis it seems acurate


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## msc (Nov 3, 2008)

37% for which formula?
Your guess.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

msc said:


> 37% for which formula?
> Your guess.


Pursuit
I'm guessing about 35% ish for the grain free, I haven't looked at the other formulas but generally foods from the same companies have similar % 


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## msc (Nov 3, 2008)

Contact the company.
Pursuit is 29%


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

DFA has an estimate of 36% so I can't imagine I'm that far off 


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

msc said:


> Contact the company.
> Pursuit is 29%


Again there is a difference between dry matter basis and guaranteed analysis


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Good grief. Here is the info on Pursuit. It is 30% protein. Premium All Natural Pet Food | Dr. Tim's

Their Kinesis is 26% protein, and the Momentum is 35%.... a wide range for dogs from hard athletes to house dogs.

Please provide facts and links.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Easy enough to determine carbs by using the formula in the above article. Simple math.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

For example back to basics guaranteed analysis is 20% carbohydrates. Dry matter analysis is 30%, either way dr. Tim's is comparatively higher


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## msc (Nov 3, 2008)

Either way your numbers are off.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I've messaged Dr Tim on FB, so I'm hoping he'll address it himself. He's fairly active on several forums and has posted here before. It is really not in anyone's interest to have incorrect info out there.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Ok whatever, the point is dr tims food is higher than I'd like, lets try to get this thread back to the point


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

Tuco said:


> For example back to basics guaranteed analysis is 20% carbohydrates. Dry matter analysis is 30%, either way dr. Tim's is comparatively higher
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Tuco, how do you know the Back to Basics GA carb percentage? I looked at their website and could not find the ash content. Is it listed on the bag? Also, all of the BtoB and DrT recipes list GA moisture as 10% max so you can compare them apples to apples without converting to dry matter basis.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

I emailed them about a month ago and they said its kinda hidden on the page do control F on the GA page and you will find it


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

Tuco said:


> I emailed them about a month ago and they said its kinda hidden on the page do control F on the GA page and you will find it
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Didn't work for me. Do you mind telling me the number? BTW, their FAQ section says their food contains an "appropriate amount" of ash, whatever that means.

Also, what is your thinking regarding pre- and probiotics? Do you think they are beneficial in dog food?


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## tim hunt (Feb 15, 2013)

First thing is that carbohydrates are derived from a starch source such as rice( a grain) or potato(not a grain). Both supply carbohydrates.

So, if we take Momentum to figure out the carbs;

100-water(10%)-protein(35%)-fat(25%)-fiber(3%)-ash(6%)=approx 21% carbs. 

Pursuit; 100-10-30-20-3-6=31%

Kinesis Grain free; 100-10-32-18-4.5-6.9=29.6%

Kinesis 100-10-26-16-3-5.8=39.2%

All of the numbers are on the website and I list ash so we have accuracy versus a guess. Many would assume 10% ash if nothing is listed.

Also, my sales force is just myself. I don't remember being in Canada at all for years since we moved our production back to the States. Ohio Pet has only one sales guy, too.

Hope this helps. You can always email me directly at [email protected]


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

artbuc said:


> Didn't work for me. Do you mind telling me the number? BTW, their FAQ section says their food contains an "appropriate amount" of ash, whatever that means.
> 
> Also, what is your thinking regarding pre- and probiotics? Do you think they are beneficial in dog food?


It says 20% from carbs for their turkey food. I'm not at all concerned about the ash content in their food considering ingredients. In my nutrition classes we haven't really done much on pre and probiotics but here's my opinion on them. Personally I feel there is very little regulation on probiotics in pet food and believe that you should add separately. I read an interesting study a year ago that tested a series of dog and cat foods claiming to have probiotics and they found only 2 of the foods had anything substantial and Afew they found none whatsoever. Just my opinion though, I feed raw so I'm able to manage what I feed easier so I supplement with foods instead


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

A good example of natural probiotic source is green tripe, I like Trippett in particular, although fresh is probably better


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Thanks Dr. Tim!!!


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

3 days and only 11 pages on a dog food thread ? Happy I stay out of the chaos.

No disrespect whatsoever my friends :wave:


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

GoldenCamper said:


> 3 days and only 11 pages on a dog food thread ? Happy I stay out of the chaos.
> 
> No disrespect whatsoever my friends :wave:


Hmm, I'm seeing only 6 pages or maybe that's only on mobile


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

Tuco said:


> It says 20% from carbs for their turkey food. I'm not at all concerned about the ash content in their food considering ingredients. In my nutrition classes we haven't really done much on pre and probiotics but here's my opinion on them. Personally I feel there is very little regulation on probiotics in pet food and believe that you should add separately. I read an interesting study a year ago that tested a series of dog and cat foods claiming to have probiotics and they found only 2 of the foods had anything substantial and Afew they found none whatsoever. Just my opinion though, I feed raw so I'm able to manage what I feed easier so I supplement with foods instead
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That is 20% of calories from vegetable carbs according to the BtB website. I assume you do not know the ash content of BtB and I will further assume that you made up the nonsense about the "control f" to break the secret code on the BtB website. The fact that you think the ingrediants listed on the label makes the total ash content irrelevant is troubling. High ash content can be detrimental and you should care about it. 

Can you offer any proof that you are, in fact, a vet student? With all due respect, your obvious lack of chemistry and science knowledge raises serious questions. 

Do you have a link to the probiotics study to which you referred? Was this the one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC340078/


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Control f is to search up a term, for example enter control f, a search feature pops up in the top right corner and you search the term


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

I believe that was the study


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

I do not think it makes the ash content irrelevant, I've never actually seen on the website the ash content not have I checked I just heard on the dog nutrition forum that its 10%. For the other questions PM me


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## tim hunt (Feb 15, 2013)

Ash is very important as it tends to denote the quality of the proteins in the food. Ash are the non combustable minerals in the food and dogs need abou 2% ash to cover their calcium/phos/trace mineral needs. Above that is wasted space.

Another question was the animal protein inclusion in foods which I believe to be very important as well. Of the protein in the food how much is derived from an animal source. Some companies like to call it "meat". Hard to say eggs are meat in my book, so I like to list it as animal derived proteins. For instance, we average 87% of our proteins to be animal derived across our formulas with Momentum at 94% of the proteins being derived from an animal source. The grain free amino acid profile is 84% animal protein derived. To me, dogs and cats thrive when they eat protein from another animal versus a plant sourced protein. It costs more to do it this way but it is the right way to me.

Lastly, I still do not understand how a non grain source is more natural than a food that uses a grain carbohydrate source such as rice. Dogs would choose a potato over corn? It is all marketing in that they play on us to think the non grain is actually non carbohydrate. Look at some of the bags out there and you would swear what they say is no carbs, not the fact that it is a grain less formula. Someone already stated that companies doctrine of misleading advertising inadvertently. Non grain carb sources can be beneficial for some dogs and cats due to food allergies or intolerances. 

Marketing can be genius at hitting our interest and foods can be created for just that demographic. I like to hope that dog foods are based more on a scientific approach based on the animals' needs and what best fuels their metabolism.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

tim hunt said:


> Ash is very important as it tends to denote the quality of the proteins in the food. Ash are the non combustable minerals in the food and dogs need abou 2% ash to cover their calcium/phos/trace mineral needs. Above that is wasted space.
> 
> Another question was the animal protein inclusion in foods which I believe to be very important as well. Of the protein in the food how much is derived from an animal source. Some companies like to call it "meat". Hard to say eggs are meat in my book, so I like to list it as animal derived proteins. For instance, we average 87% of our proteins to be animal derived across our formulas with Momentum at 94% of the proteins being derived from an animal source. The grain free amino acid profile is 84% animal protein derived. To me, dogs and cats thrive when they eat protein from another animal versus a plant sourced protein. It costs more to do it this way but it is the right way to me.
> 
> ...


First understand that I do like your food and would choose it over a majority of other foods, I'm a raw feeder myself and do not feed kibble but your food I personally feel is not as good as my favourite kibbles. I do not believe potato is better than corn nutrtionally nor vice versa, I try to avoid both but my main concerns with corn are that when its included in foods it often gets excessive, I also getting concerned with the regulations and practices with corn in animal feed. Momentum is probably what I believe is one of the best of your foods and have recommended it to other members in the past depending on each individuals particular needs and I have to say your carbohydrate levels are much more satisfactory IMO than most foods, many of my troubles with your food are either personal or comparative to my favorite group of brands


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## tim hunt (Feb 15, 2013)

That is fair, Tuco. These threads can be very helpful to many when it stays on the subject and doesn't devolve into personal attacks. Thank you and others for being able to do so. Nutrition can be like talking religion or politics at a party- it gets passionate and can get ugly.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

tim hunt said:


> That is fair, Tuco. These threads can be very helpful to many when it stays on the subject and doesn't devolve into personal attacks. Thank you and others for being able to do so. Nutrition can be like talking religion or politics at a party- it gets passionate and can get ugly.


And thank you for giving us your two cents


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Lets get this thread back on track


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## TanyaD (Feb 22, 2013)

Tuco said:


> I feed raw, and have been for 18 years
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Could you read what I wrote about Mayah's reaction to raw, and give me some feedback? Thanks!!


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I feed Wellness Core Ocean. It is healthy for both Mercy's coat and skin. Her fur has a great sheen.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Tuco said:


> Could you link me?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No, I can't. That information was given to me from customer support via e-mail from Champion Petfoods. I'd be happy to forward you that e-mail if you PM me our e-mail address or you can read my question and answer in the thread I started about Orijen's new formula here: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...cipes/145978-ive-got-orijens-new-formula.html


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## dogloverforlife (Feb 17, 2013)

MercyMom said:


> I feed Wellness Core Ocean. It is healthy for both Mercy's coat and skin. Her fur has a great sheen.


Mercy is beautiful!


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Do any of you have an opinion on which is best overall....fish or beef based grain free kibble.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

It depends on the formula and your dog, one of my favorite foods is evo red meat formula, otherwise you could try fromms fish formula


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

Tuco said:


> I emailed them about a month ago and they said its kinda hidden on the page do control F on the GA page and you will find it
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I tried to contact Back to Basics to ask about their ash content. No response to my email. Called 2x and got recorded message both times. I left a message but no one returned my call. Why would anyone want to feed food from a company who will not divulge the ash content and/or not respond to a consumer question?


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Looking at Back to Basics, it is not a food I would personally feed. Many (including vets) don't think the high protein (38%) is necessary or healthful. Also, looking at the ingredient listing, there are no listed or guaranteed probiotics. And, according to petsumerreport, the vitamin/mineral pack is China sourced. I can find no info on the back to basics site about this.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Looking at Back to Basics, it is not a food I would personally feed. Many (including vets) don't think the high protein (38%) is necessary or healthful. Also, looking at the ingredient listing, there are no listed or guaranteed probiotics. And, according to petsumerreport, the vitamin/mineral pack is China sourced. I can find no info on the back to basics site about this.


The reason why it's got a high protein is because its got a very low carb level relative to most foods, because not only is it grain free but it's starch free, they took quite a while to get back to me last time I emailed them. I don't trust any company whatsoever about probiotic claims because of the very low regulation and a study I read a while back tested like 2 dozen dog and cat foods and only 2 had recognized probiotics. I was not aware that the mineral pack was china sourced


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

artbuc said:


> I tried to contact Back to Basics to ask about their ash content. No response to my email. Called 2x and got recorded message both times. I left a message but no one returned my call. Why would anyone want to feed food from a company who will not divulge the ash content and/or not respond to a consumer question?


I read on another forum that the ash content is 9%


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Looking at Back to Basics, it is not a food I would personally feed. Many (including vets) don't think the high protein (38%) is necessary or healthful. Also, looking at the ingredient listing, there are no listed or guaranteed probiotics. And, according to petsumerreport, the vitamin/mineral pack is China sourced. I can find no info on the back to basics site about this.


And although high protein can be concerning in dog food, there are afew things to take into account. protein to fat ratio, if a food has high protein and higher fat, its probably because it has more meat content, as b2b does, also you have to remember the source of the protein, if there is much protien from corn, legumes, peas, etc. They do not have the amino acid profile that meats do and have been shown to be harder on the liver and kidneys than other meats. I fed to big dogs raw for 18 years, the protein contents were around 45-50% because they got no grain and extremely few starches at all. They were healthy, never had a liver or kidney issue or many issues at all.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Tuco said:


> The reason why it's got a high protein is because its got a very low carb level relative to most foods, because not only is it grain free but it's starch free, they took quite a while to get back to me last time I emailed them. I don't trust any company whatsoever about probiotic claims because of the very low regulation and a study I read a while back tested like 2 dozen dog and cat foods and only 2 had recognized probiotics. I was not aware that the mineral pack was china sourced
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No kibble can be starch free..... starch is needed to bind the ingredients together to form the kibble. Tapioca, all the pea ingredients, and flax are starches.

Products - Dry Food - Back to Basics


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

From the article quoted below. 



> The Guaranteed Analysis of a pet food label is required by regulation to provide pet owners with ‘guaranteed’ nutrient levels of the pet food. No pet food company, that includes probiotics in their formula, is required by regulation to include probiotic guarantees in the Guaranteed Analysis on the label. Yet some do. We can only assume that those small handful of pet food companies that include a ‘guaranteed’ statement of propbiotic levels on their label and/or on their website is telling us…they guarantee the probiotic to be live and viable. We can as well assume that the pet food companies that include probiotics in their ingredient list (and marketing) yet exclude probiotic guarantees on their label or website is probably not live and viable (perhaps one of the pet foods studied in the research above).
> Yes, any pet food company can state all types of percentages within a Guaranteed Analysis and few (if any) would ever get caught lying to petsumers. However, in a rapidly changing pet food world, I believe a clear show of guarantees listed on a pet food label and/or website is our best bet at holding them accountable for their claims. Don’t pay any attention to slick marketing tag lines, look at the ingredients AND the guaranteed analysis (look both on the label and on the pet food website). Educated pet owners know pet food can ‘talk the talk’; we’re looking for those that can ‘walk the walk’ to feed to our pets. Guarantees are part of ‘the walk’.


Should Probiotics and Prebiotics in Pet Food influence your Purchase?


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> No kibble can be starch free..... starch is needed to bind the ingredients together to form the kibble. Tapioca, all the pea ingredients, and flax are starches.
> 
> Products - Dry Food - Back to Basics


My apologies, fewer starches with fewer carbohydrates as slides to more common such as potato and corn. The study I read I believe is the one they are quoting


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> The reason why it's got a high protein is because its got a very low carb level relative to most foods, because not only is it grain free but it's starch free,


Sorry, what? I was just looking at their foods, and they have tapioca, peas, and flaxseed in the ingredients, all sources of starch. Also, the dry turkey formula is 38/18, so what is the other 44%, all ash and water?


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

What raw are you feeding that has 50% protein. Raw meat is not in that range. Many raw feeders are glad to point out that a raw diet is not high protein since raw meat is mostly water, as evidenced in the attached chart. How many grams of protein/ day do your dogs get?

MEAT, FAT AND OTHER EDIBLE CARCASS PARTS


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> What raw are you feeding that has 50% protein. Raw meat is not in that range. Many raw feeders are glad to point out that a raw diet is not high protein since raw meat is mostly water, as evidenced in the attached chart. How many grams of protein/ day do your dogs get?
> 
> MEAT, FAT AND OTHER EDIBLE CARCASS PARTS


I meant ratio to fat and carbs


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

So how many grams of protein do your dogs get daily? And how much do they weigh?


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## oro perro (Aug 20, 2012)

Not to get on a beaten path...but, are there really advantages in feeding a "large breed puppy" formula to a puppy v.s. ALS stage foods, or is this just a maketing ploy?

Also, what ratio of Protein, fat, carbs are best for puppy stages?

Thanks.


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## Michele4 (Oct 28, 2012)

If I'm not mistaken large breed puppy has fewer calories and more protein than normal puppy, and ALS is just formulated to fit all ages of dogs. The advantage of a Large Breed formula is not to overfeed the large breed dog because of all the growth and joint issues they have. I could be wrong but that what I always assumed.


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## oro perro (Aug 20, 2012)

You're certainly correct about the "growth" concerns, but I think that different companies employ different amounts of proteins in their panel.

I like the INNOVA LBP formula myself, but it only employs about a 26% protein base, which some may consider on the low side. I believe that Acana/Orrijen makes one with much more protein content, if I'm not mistaken.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Personally, I would feel much more comfortable having my dog on a food like Innova puppy, Fromm Gold puppy etc than one of the high protein foods like Orijen. MHO.


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

To each his/her own I say. We feed Orijen to Maddie & Basil. Weight, coats, and poops are great.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

I think ALS food is the way to go. What you need to do is look at the calorie content no matter what food you feed. Just make sure you give the calories based on the expected adult weight. If your pup is getting too thin, feed a little more. If your pup is getting a little chubby, cut back a little. It's best to have your dog just a little on the thin side. I have found that the feeding directions on the dog food bag is way too much. 

Try this calculator at dogfoodadvisor.com. Put in what should be your pups ideal ADULT weight. Dog Food Calculator

For example, I expect my male golden pup to be about 70lb. I chose "Active". I get 1675 calories a day. So since Orijen 6 Fish has 478 calories per cup, that's come out to a little over 3 cups a day. I feed 1 1/2 cups twice a day. Actually, even a little less than that because he also gets food during training sessions. 



Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Personally, I would feel much more comfortable having my dog on a food like Innova puppy, Fromm Gold puppy etc than one of the high protein foods like Orijen. MHO.





Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> To each his/her own I say. We feed Orijen to Maddie & Basil. Weight, coats, and poops are great.


Same here!

You've got to feed what is best for your dog. I fed Wellness CORE to my senior dog for years. Despite Wellness CORE having 34% protein. Her lab work kept coming back with low albumin (protein) levels. Vet could not explain why. Her liver enzymes were normal and kidney function was normal. Personally, I warmly welcome Orijen's 38% protein. FROMM would certainly be heading in the wrong direction for my dog with only 28% protein.


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## oro perro (Aug 20, 2012)

I think after puppy stage, (18 months) protein is more important of a factor to consider. Some people say protein induces rapid groth, while others say the opposite.


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## Keragold (May 9, 2008)

stealle said:


> I think ALS food is the way to go. What you need to do is look at the calorie content no matter what food you feed. Just make sure you give the calories based on the expected adult weight. If your pup is getting too thin, feed a little more. If your pup is getting a little chubby, cut back a little. It's best to have your dog just a little on the thin side. I have found that the feeding directions on the dog food bag is way too much.


Actually, relying on the calorie content printed on the bag is not going to be practical or wise for very much longer, and in fact depending on the manufacturer, may not be a good idea now. The AAFCO is finalizing their new regulations for the listing of kcals on the bag label. Some companies have been proactive in switching to the new regulations before they become official later this spring. Bear with me for a minute here while I try to explain.

The following calculation called the Atwater method calculates energy in food as: 4 kcals per gram of protein, 9 kcals per gram of fat, and 4 kcals per gram of carbohydrate. This method is used by the USDA nutrient Databank for determining calories in a food for humans. A variation of this method used by some pet food companies is described as Modified Atwater. This method assigns 3.5 kcals per gram of protein, 8.5 kcals per gram of fat, and 3.5 kcals per gram of carbohydrate, regardless of the source or type of ingredient.

In the past, the use of Modified Atwater by pet food companies was acceptable as a calculation because of the types of lower grade ingredients which were typically used in pet food. Nowadays, pet food ingredients are much different and generally of higher quality, however the assigned values for calculating kcals remain the same regardless of the use of improved ingredients.

Because of the vast range of 70% to more than 90% digestibility of today's pet foods, the use of the Modified Atwater calculation may over or underestimate the energy content of many products on the market today. As an example, proteins are assigned a value of 3.5 kcals per gram, regardless of the type. So, a lower quality protein such as corn gluten meal with lower digestibility would be assigned the same kcal value as chicken meal which has high digestibility. Because the use of Modified Atwater is now a requirement in kcal calculation and not a choice, the only way manufacturers will be able to show the difference is to develop feeding guidelines based on specific ingredient and product knowledge. 

It is not a good idea for the average consumer to depend on the stated kcals as listed on the product label to determine how much to feed your dog. One pet food manufacturer who had a product listed at 570 kcals per cup before the new regulations, has now conformed to the new regulations and without a recipe change, now must list their product at 467 kcals per cup.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Dumb question.... 


Those of you who feed those dehydrated homemade-y type foods.... does it look like this? :uhoh: If I didn't see the dog on the front, I swear I would have thought I was looking at bird food.  

Apologise for the poor picture and not providing a name there - the clerks at this store follow you around and wait at your beck and call. I felt suspicious taking pics. :

I put the dog treats in there for comparision, pretend that's dog food. You look from the "kibble" to the bird seedy stuff and er.... What would you feed your dog? :uhoh:


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

THK has an oatmeal consistency with some chunks of meat and veggies. It smells wonderful and our dogs about jump out of their skin drooling and crying while it rehydrates.


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky (Feb 22, 2011)

Us too Maddie'sMom ~ anyone can take a look at my girl's height and weight now that she is 2 and she certainly didn't grow too fast, or too tall. Her grandfather is "Hank" too ~ he was a BIG boy I've been told. She just so happens to take after her Sire's line in the size department and ended up a bit on the smaller side ~ g-e-n-e-t-i-c-s. Protein has nothing to do with fast growth ~ over feeding, as well as phos/?? (brain freeze) ratio is what is important. Orijen has the proper rations of the phos/??

Orijen isn't for every dog ~ no feed is, but I am a little bored with hearing people say "Oh I would never feed so much protein to my dog, it will grow too fast". 

Oops! I'm spouting off! Sorry! Is it cranky day for me? LOL! Maybe I need a nap?



Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> To each his/her own I say. We feed Orijen to Maddie & Basil. Weight, coats, and poops are great.


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## furry and four paws (May 10, 2012)

:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh: Wow- my background is in science and medicine and ya'll have my head spinning! The older I get, the more firmly I believe in KISS (keep it simple stupid), it makes my life easier.

My pack (4dogs) goes from 100lbs down to 17lbs. Two years up to ten. My golden princess is the baby at two. They all are fed the same things and are all healthy and happy.

I've used the Whole Dog Journal- Best Kibble list to pick what my crew eats. Several years ago WDG's article on- why they choose the brands they choose- discussed the need to rotate types of food. It made sense to me and I tried it (very slowly at first). Now my guys eat three different brands- rotating protein types, grain and grain free. One bag finished,the kiddo's get the next one poured in the feeding bin. No stool issues or picky feeders at my house! The kibble I choose is easy to obtain at my local feed store and middle/low end in price. I'm feeding 250lbs of furry friends,cost is an issue.

I've tried the raw route 3 times for six months each time. IMO for my dogs I didn't feel it was worth the effort. Most of my crew are Delta certified therapy dogs so raw is out anyway. My crew gets fat free greek yogurt, omega 3's,omega 3-6-9,raw fruits and veggies,grilled chicken and turkey. 

Ask ten people what they feed and you'll get ten answers on what's the perfect dog food. If something works for your dogs, its easy to get and you can afford it.... There are those of us old enough to remember when there was only Purina and it was considered a good dog food. There were many dogs who lived to ripe old healthy ages on Purina. Not that I'd use it today, just saying....


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky (Feb 22, 2011)

Whole Dog Journal - Approved Dry Foods 2012 - BoxersRule

Link takes you to the Whole Dog Journal's 2012 list of kibble. (fyi ~ Champion, which is on the list, is Orijen and Arcana ~ who ever typed this didn't add that)

I agree with furryandfourpaws, it's a great place to look! I've not yet seen the 2013 list ~ or if it's even out.


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## furry and four paws (May 10, 2012)

Yes the 2013 best dry kibble list came out last month. I try to follow WDG's request not to do any live links to their site, they are after all in the business of selling this info. A subscription to Whole Dog Journal is reasonable and has alot of great info for anyone who loves their dog


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

KatieBlue'sMidnightSky said:


> Us too Maddie'sMom ~ anyone can take a look at my girl's height and weight now that she is 2 and she certainly didn't grow too fast, or too tall. Her grandfather is "Hank" too ~ he was a BIG boy I've been told. She just so happens to take after her Sire's line in the size department and ended up a bit on the smaller side ~ g-e-n-e-t-i-c-s. Protein has nothing to do with fast growth ~ over feeding, as well as phos/?? (brain freeze) ratio is what is important. Orijen has the proper rations of the phos/??
> 
> Orijen isn't for every dog ~ no feed is, but I am a little bored with hearing people say "Oh I would never feed so much protein to my dog, it will grow too fast".
> 
> Oops! I'm spouting off! Sorry! Is it cranky day for me? LOL! Maybe I need a nap?


The people who give others Cr*p on high protein dog foods don't have the whole story, although high protein diets can put strain on a dogs liver and kidneys, it depends on the quality of the protein and the amino acid profile. If you are feeding a food that has all of its protien from lamb, fish, beef, chicken, pork, etc that food can have a pretty high protein without putting strain on a dogs body, because its much more biologically available, and has more amino acids than plant protein. If I take some regular grade dog food which will likely have 50+% plant protien from sources like corn, soy, peas, it's going to take more effort to digest and absorb and if it has the same protein percentage as that previous wholesome meat filled food, it could put stress on those organs, A big issue is many of these high protien foods that people made these bases on we're filled with corn, probably upward of 50%. As for Orijen, it's a good dog food from a manufacturer I consider one of if not the best dog food manufacturer in North America, my only concern with the food would be the recent addition if chickpeas and lentils which make me slightly concerned about plant protien.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Keragold said:


> Actually, relying on the calorie content printed on the bag is not going to be practical or wise for very much longer, and in fact depending on the manufacturer, may not be a good idea now.
> 
> .....
> 
> It is not a good idea for the average consumer to depend on the stated kcals as listed on the product label to determine how much to feed your dog. One pet food manufacturer who had a product listed at 570 kcals per cup before the new regulations, has now conformed to the new regulations and without a recipe change, now must list their product at 467 kcals per cup.


That's good info, but the average consumer needs to start somewhere. That somewhere is what is printed on the bag. Where would you suggest the average consumer start?

I said we should weigh our dogs. If your dog gets a little too thin, feed him/her a little more. If your dog gets a little too heavy, feed a little less. You can get as complicated as you want about various formulas, but the bottom line is that you feed according to your dogs requirements (growth, health/illness, and activity level) and weight. It's good to know that manufacturers will be forced to start provided a more accurate kcal info in the spring. But, even the most perfect formula telling the exact kcal info will not take into consideration each individual dogs requirements. We will still have to feed more or less based on weight. 

The main point I was trying to make is that I think it is best to feed an "all life stages" (ALS) food. If you are buying a quality kibble that is what you will get... a kibble that is good for puppies, seniors and everything in between. Including fat dogs and thin dogs. I especially don't like overweight formulas. There is usually just added filler to make the dog feel full. These fillers are garbage. As a dog owner, we should control what our dogs eat. Just feed a good ALS food to your fat dog in the appropriate amount. Dogs don't get fat overnight. If they are starting to chub up, feed less. However, if your dog is grossly overweight don't starve them, just feed based on what their ideal weight should be. Let them lose weight gradually. Same with puppies; feed ALS formula. Feel their ribs. You should be able to easily feel them, your should not be able to easily see them, especially a golden. A good ALS formula like Orijen has the appropriate low cal/phos ratio for puppies.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

BTW, happy half birthday to my sweet Ollie! arty:


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## furry and four paws (May 10, 2012)

Thank you stealle, very well said. Most of us only want to know, am I feeding a good quality food and how much. If someone needs choices ,pick off a well respected list such as Whole Dog Journal or whatever one you think is good. Watch your dog. Are they maintaining their weight, like what the food is, are they healthy and active.... After all I just stated, can you afford what you're buying, high price doesn't equate to the best food. It's not status at my house to feed the most expensive kibble out there it's dumb:no:


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

You don't even have to weigh your dog. A hands-on exam can tell you whether your dog needs to put a few pounds on or take a few off. And you adjust the food accordingly.


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## Keragold (May 9, 2008)

Stealle, I don't disagree at all with what you are saying. It makes perfect sense. I only wanted to point out that for those who rely strictly on using kcals as a guide on how much to feed their dogs, and those folks do exist, that the new method of calculating kcals is not going to be an accurate way for them to do so. It will more or less make poor foods seem to be more nutrient-rich and good foods less so because ingredient quality and digestibilty is not taken into account. The only starting point will be the feeding guidelines on the bag as these are the only way the manufacturer has to account for those factors. But, those guidelines are only that. A starting point. Your dog's condition and weight should most definitely guide how much you feed. I am a big believer in the rib check, myself! AND I feed an ALS food.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

You mention,,,the hands on method...... Murphy appears to have a "waist" if you know what I mean. There is just so much "hair"!!!! If I try I can feel his ribs. He gets three cups a day of Acana Pacifica and he 10 1/2 months old. Walks three miles a day and INHALES his food.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

As long as he doesn't pop out at the waist and has a slight hour glass shape he's fine


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Here is the Purina body chart. It's important to be able to feel those ribs, have a tuck at the waist.

http://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/resources/Files/dog_chart.pdf

Keeping our dogs at a healthy trim weight is one of the most important things we can do to ensure their health and longevity.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Murphy seems to be ideal according to the Purina chart. Thanks


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## JayBen (Aug 30, 2012)

Acana Wild Prairie here for about 2 months now. Changeover from Eukanuba was easy


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## dogloverforlife (Feb 17, 2013)

I just got my Fromm Adult Classic in the mail from chewy.com.
Emma and Patches will both eat this and I will see how they do coat, energy, stool wise. The hound boys will stay on Nutrisource Performance or possibly Dr. TIMS Momentum. 
I have had to up their amount of food because they do not seem to be gaining weight.
I de wormed them a little over a week ago. 

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## Oakleylove (Jun 30, 2012)

Oakley has a sensitive tummy so he has been on a few different brands (Wellness, GO, Performatrin Ultra).
I've had the best luck with Blue Buffalo Wild Salmon. He really likes it!


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