# What do you think?



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

You are judging a Junior HT. You go to water. Due to thick brush and extremely narrow openings, the only access to the water for gunners and handlers is on the same side of the pond very close together with the wind blowing into your face (headwind). 



1. What do you think a duck will do when thrown into the wind? 
2. Do you do a flyer and dead bird or would you choose to do two dead birds? And why?
3. Just to complicate matters, both live birds and dead birds are wet. What problems does this cause?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Two dead birds. Pitch em in. Absolutely do not do a flyer in this scenario. Don't worry about the wind in your face for a short, quick Junior water series with dead birds. 

So how wet is wet? I would refuse to start a junior water series with soggy bedraggled birds. You should have plenty of dry-ish birds from the land series even if it was raining. And if it was raining you should have done your best to keep them under a tent while they were hanging. You also have the option of getting shot fliers from master. Even if the birds are wet, two short marks with the birds landing in open water -- the dogs are going to get to them before they have a chance to submerge so sinking ducks shouldn't be a problem.
Presumably you scoped out your water before setting up your land series so if the problem is this water test is a "gimme" -- adjust your land series to be more challenging so you can rest easy at night knowing you adequately tested those dogs before giving them a Junior ribbon.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

OK, analysis.


Bird crates were placed uncovered in the rain so birds are wet. We did the land series in the rain so the birds got wetter. We went to water and we immediately became aware of a few of problems: 1) Wind direction 2) Unsuitable access to the edge of the pond 3) Wet birds---dead and alive


We decided on trying different setups. We ran a test dog with a flyer giving the guns and thrower specific instructions---position to give us a strong throw for a quartering bird (extremely difficult). Although we did not expect it to work out, it actually did but we still had a couple of plan Bs. The problem is that a flyer thrown into the wind will turn away from the wind and not go out where we wanted it, might even not be visible at all. If that didn't work we were ready to use two dead birds---they will go exactly where you want them, no risk. Well this worked out for us so we used a flyer. The wet birds are a problem, they certainly did not float well and some actually sank. Something to consider is doing water first. Birds get wet but won't be a problem when doing land later. But you should have dry birds to begin with.


So...wet birds do not fly well or maybe not at all. Birds thrown into the wind will turn away from the wind. And waterlogged birds sink.


k9design---Well thought out post.


I am in total agreement with your post. Re: bird problem, I did not deliver the birds, I only arrived to find them stacked outside of the easy up getting drenched. I would have preferred two dead birds on the water but that was no bargain, birds were already like saturated wet rags (disgusting) but if the flyer failed we were ready to do two dead birds. AND we like to give two flyers in each stake. BTW, Master was done on Friday, Junior on Saturday. By the time the JH stake was run, all birds were wet---last series of MH was three birds on the water, remaining birds were exposed to the elements so no dry birds available for us.


PS Advice was given to all involved as to how to improve things.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Haha yeah sounds like you managed...remember this phrase : AFGO
Another
F******ing
Growth
Opportunity


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

gdgli said:


> You are judging a Junior HT. You go to water. Due to thick brush and extremely narrow openings, the only access to the water for gunners and handlers is on the same side of the pond very close together with the wind blowing into your face (headwind).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are numerous variables that come into play. 

1. how skilled are your gunners?
2. Do you have wingers to launch flyers and or dead birds? Do you have boats and other equipment available?
3. If the birds are wet, the live birds will float better even if they've been out in the rain. Reusing a wet dead bird is likely a sinking mess the minute it hits the water.

When thrown into a stiff wind, the birds will likely fly pretty well, but controlling where they go will be difficult for most throwers. Using a winger to launch the flyer will get the control needed for better placement and a fresh shot bird will float higher in the water

You can dispatch the live birds just before use and toss them from the shore. These will still float better than soaking wet birds shot earlier in the day.

In all honesty, I would not use the pond you described. If nothing else I would look for a puddle in a field to run the dogs through. (It's raining isn't it?) While putting dogs through a pond is nice, there is no requirement for the dogs to swim in a water series, they only need to get wet. Then I could set marks under conditions appropriate for Junior dogs.

Use the conditions at hand to your advantage.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Swampcollie


Thanks for the input.


Several factors is right. Shoreline is six foot high brush five feet wide with three doorway sized "cutouts" within maybe 40 yards. One cutout has gunners, other two are openings from which to run the dogs. No room for wingers. One winger with popper stand was placed on the mud---person had to bull his way through the brush to set up. I hate this, wingers move in the mud and the gun stands frequently lean and finally fall over in the water. (I have seen two guns at FT/HT within two weeks blow up after falling over into the mud. Inexperienced gun handling IMO.) I also made the comment that the dogs just had to get wet and that we didn't have to do what we did. I personally find it very distasteful to take live birds and snap their necks for the test and I am the only one present who would do this (seriously). 

Gunners are excellent, terrific shots, not the usual duckhunter that shows up to fill in. (Ugh!!!)

I did not want to use this pond, gave my opinion but for several reasons chose not to debate the issue. I may already have the reputation of being difficult (I am not, I just pay attention to details which I feel are important.) We are dealing with NY State Land and usage includes several conditions which are extremely cumbersome. I do long for the old days before they found the tiger salamander in one pond and some special fish in another resulting in closing them down to dog work. We did do our best considering the hand we were dealt.


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