# teaching force fetch



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

One of my friends asked me if I would help him force fetch his border collie. He's never done it before, and all of mine have gone through it. All I heard from everyone else there (including his wife) was comments like "oh I could never do that to my dog" and "I'm just not into that."

So I spent about 15 minutes with the dog, showing him how I do the initial steps of force fetch. Everyone else was sitting around the kitchen table watching. By the time I was done everyone was ready to learn how to do it on their own dog. They realized it's doesn't have to be a painful, horrible experience after all! They were amazed that this soft dog showed no negative reaction, he even kept his ears up. They thought force fetch meant me digging my nail in the dog's ear while the two of us battled it out. They were pleasantly surprised at how smoothly it went.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Yeah, I had some serious reservations about it. After talking to people about it and reading articles on it I decided to FF Scout. (I am trying myself to keep an open mind on all types of training--at least until I have tried them first hand).

Honestly, it wasn't *that* bad and now I have a dog that fetches reliably because she wants to and because she has to. It hasn't hurt her relationship with me at all, or her desire to retrieve or work, or her happiness and style in the field. In fact, we would finish a session and I would put a bumper in my training bag only to turn my back and have Scout sneaking her little head into the bag to pull out the bumper!

So whenever I hear people say certain things are cruel and inhumane and will ruin a dogs attitude I just shake my head. It really depends on so many things, IMO.


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

I think that the important thing with the FF, perhaps more than other less aversive techniques, is that you are shown how to do it correctly. I have never done it with Casey (clicker queen that I am), but I know people who have done it very successfully because they were originally taught how by an experienced trainer. I also know a few people who tried on their own who messed their dog up with retrieving. My understanding is that it should be a quick correction that sends a clear message with a clear positive when the dog takes the dumbell. (correction NOT punishment). It should be a way of communicating with your dog.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

This is very well worded.
I think, when it's done correctly, it's just a source of information to the dog.




Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom said:


> I think that the important thing with the FF, perhaps more than other less aversive techniques, is that you are shown how to do it correctly. I have never done it with Casey (clicker queen that I am), but I know people who have done it very successfully because they were originally taught how by an experienced trainer. I also know a few people who tried on their own who messed their dog up with retrieving. My understanding is that it should be a quick correction that sends a clear message with a clear positive when the dog takes the dumbell. (correction NOT punishment). It should be a way of communicating with your dog.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

I agree!!^^ It doesn't have to be a horrible experience for the dog. Maddie had a HORRIBLE experience with the first trainer we had....and then she hated the dumbbell. It took me 2 years to turn that around and we found a new trainer who knew about the past she had been through...and she is now a happy retriever who LOVES the dumbbell. All it took was consistency and sending her the right information as far as taking the dumbbell. =)


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> This is very well worded.
> I think, when it's done correctly, it's just a source of information to the dog.


Agreed!

It took me a good year to be comfortable with my decision to do it and I went to someone who had done it before, but I was surprised how well it went. My dog certainly doesn't think anything less of me after the process. Unfortunately I didn't have a good place to do it so I used our patio table. Now I can't keep him off the table :curtain::doh:


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I used my grooming table. Flip's always jumping up there now to see if we can play the game again.


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## Luci (May 26, 2009)

I've been wondering about this a lot lately. We've begun teaching Lucy field work and have had loads of problems with her not bringing the duck to hand or dropping it (among other things :doh. I don't think we want to go as far as an electronic collar with her in terms of overall field training, but I've had similar reservations about the FF and have been trying to find out more about it. We've been working with a trainer, so won't be undertaking it alone.

Could someone point me in the direction of some information on the different techniques, specifically the ones that are the correct way to FF a golden?


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

This link was sent to me while I was going through FF

http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html

I also read just about everything I put my hands on--through google searches and from books. I also got a printed article from a friend plus hands on help from people who had done it.

I do not regret doing it although a year ago I think I would be horrified to think I would have done it  Scout was having a lot of problems dropping the bumper but after FF and CC it went away completely. (Ok, water is a different story but it is hard to beat the desire to shake it off. She still delivers to hand, just stops and drops, shakes, fetches and returns on occasion).


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

James Spencer's Training Retrievers For Marshes and Meadows has a good overall section on FF. Terri Arnold's Open and Utility book also has a section on it.

And if you ever get to a Connie Cleveland workshop, she's great to watch doing a demo of FF


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> I also read just about everything I put my hands on--through google searches and from books. I also got a printed article from a friend plus hands on help from people who had done it.


Same. And I watched a bunch of dogs work that had been through it -- it really helped to see how much they were enjoying what they were doing.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

kgiff said:


> Same. And I watched a bunch of dogs work that had been through it -- it really helped to see how much they were enjoying what they were doing.


Yup! And I can't remember how many times I came across writings that talked about FF turning a dog that didn't like to retrieve into one that became a retrieving machine. 

I don't know if I mentioned it--but I talked to people who had experience doing both clicker way and FF way and they felt FF was better and more reliable.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

GoldenSail, was it you that gave me the link for "romancing the cookie"? If so, can you post it here for others to enjoy as well? It was a GREAT article.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

isn't that Linda Koutsky's article?

(less than two months until my Linda Koutsky seminar!)


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

yes, it is, and it's excellent!




Loisiana said:


> isn't that Linda Koutsky's article?
> 
> (less than two months until my Linda Koutsky seminar!)


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Koutsky groupie here :wavey:


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I'll post a link, but I'll make it another thread


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

well I got sidetracked with the other thread and forgot to post this here.

I was clipping nails the other night (hurry up UPS and get my new dremel here please - I hate clipping!) and I realized that the pressure I use to hold the paw while trimming is the same as (or even more than when they start getting wiggly) the amount of pressure I was using on the BC the other day for FF.


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