# Field Training October 2013



## Claudia M

This is the closest youtube video I found so far - hopefully that will explain what I mean by it.


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## hotel4dogs

Thanks for starting this thread!


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## Tatnall

I hope I get to train in October. Starting this weekend, I am either judging or working a trial every weekend through the first week in November. Then it is basically time for the NFC, which I have to work but don't know what yet. I had things nicely spread out but some last minute judging came up. Going to be a long fall for my critters.


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## hotel4dogs

I hope I get to train in October, too....he's still limping when he trots for a little while. Not when he walks or runs. We are off to the vet today to try to figure out exactly what he injured. 
At this point, our October hunt tests (19 and 20) are in jeopardy. Even if his leg is totally healed by then, we will not have been able to train.


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## Claudia M

keeping fingers crossed for you and Tito today.


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## K9-Design

Claudia, I already posted I think in the September thread, but do yourself a favor and utilize the tools and instruction for training blind retrieves that is already out there, established and proven over time. Lardy, Graham, Stawski. All follow basically the same steps. I can't remember if you use a collar or not, even if you don't, following these steps in the order they are presented (even if it means skipping the ecollar parts and relying just on obedience/repetition), will get you A LOT further than trying to feel it out on your own. Training for blinds is NOT a linear or intuitive process. The answer is already out there for you; don't re-invent the wheel.


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## hotel4dogs

Back from the vet.
The good news is there's nothing serious (as in, requiring surgery, etc) wrong.
The bad news is it's a badly sprained carpal muscle (not sure of the muscle's name), which I think of as a wrist. So....leash walking only for 2 more weeks, 2 more weeks of rimadryl, no training/trials/tests. A couple of sessions of laser therapy.
Bummer. I just withdrew him from the October 19 and 20 Spaniel hunt tests. He'd probably be okay to run by then, but he won't have trained for over 4 weeks, which would not be a good thing.


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## Alaska7133

Barb,
Patience is a virtue (unfortunately I don't have it). Hope you enjoy your October with the leaves changing and all. It's nice that you have tests so late in the year. Hope he recovers quickly and thoroughly with no reoccurrence.


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## Alaska7133

Miss Lucy is finally over her heat cycle. We're headed back up to Hatcher Pass again this weekend and look for ptarmigan or grouse. Crossing my fingers to not get dumped with snow this week. Line manners and more line manners. I think we can't practice stays often enough. Now that she can be off leash we can get down to practicing whistle sits and all that comes along after. Reilly and I have been running in obedience fun matches. He's doing great and sometimes makes me wonder while I bother with the puppy!


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## hotel4dogs

Thanks. While I'm frustrated and annoyed, when I read some of the horrible things going on with some of the other dogs on the forum right now I realize what a truly minor inconvenience it is.


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## MillionsofPeaches

....but a bummer none the least.


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## Sweese

*Blinds and handling*

Claudia,

The methods for teaching blinds for retrievers are all somewhat similar. One of the more contemporary(and easy to find) guys is Tom Dokken and he has videos and books out in mass. The books are well done and have great photos. His method starts out at 7 weeks with the use of platforms. The use of these platforms for sit, stay, place(kennel), etc.. are eventually used for handling. I have never used platforms for handling training over the years I have trained but may try it with a puppy or two in the future. I have used platforms for actual hunting and duck blinds.

All of Dokken's methods for teaching handling are sound and you can follow his methods without the platforms - you just substitute bumpers. An e-collar can be used and they are great training tools today but I trained lots of retrievers to handle without them. Back in the old days they were either hot or off. 

Blinds and handling takes a long time and you really never stop the drill work. It is also extremely rewarding especially with downed game across obstacles you do not really want to cross yourself. My current dog Cassie is working through basic lines and handling now. I may post a few videos from time to time.

How old is your dog and what have you accomplished to date?

Have fun!

Jay


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## Claudia M

Thanks Jay. Rose is 15 months old. We have done the basic obedience stuff and marking drills, singles, doubles, shorter and longer distances. You can see her videos on FB under Rose Bud. 
Interesting, Jim Spencer discusses in his books to not start blind retrieves until your dog is good at marking. However, even in the video that I posted on the first page it seems that you can start from much younger with the directional training thus sending the pup to a blind retrieve. 
I do not use an e-collar at least for the moment and will try not to. We are starting to work on whistle sits and directions.


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## EvanG

Claudia M said:


> Thanks Jay. Rose is 15 months old....
> I do not use an e-collar at least for the moment and will try not to. We are starting to work on whistle sits and directions.


Why will you try not to use the single most effective tool in retriever training? One of the dogs I trained as a pro was FC-AFC Blackwater Bart II. At 13 months he had 8 Derby points and was QAA (qualified all-age). I certainly wouldn't expect very many dogs to achieve that, but at 15 months all of them are doing Qualifying-level work. That is very unlikely without the e-collar, coupled with a sound method for its use.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs

we taught basic casting using food bowls instead of bumpers  . That's how my pro starts his 7 to 8 week old puppies.


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## K9-Design

Is this thing on? I think Claudia has me blocked LOL

You can start very little puppies on 3 handed casting and the whistle, not a problem. But eventually you need to get with the program and teach them all the steps in order to produce a handling dog. Again - no need to watch youtube videos and piece it together yourself : the information is already out there.


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## Ljilly28

Mystic and I are going to the Pee Wee Stakes tomorrow with a friend and her lab puppy. We will see how do, but it should be a fun day.


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## hollyk

Here is a blind from the other day.
Started with about 10 yards of land, short swimming water, the correct line would take them over a point and back though splashing water. That would place them at the bottom of a hill where they punched though the tall grass and then up slope to the blind. 
It took me a bit to get to her locked on the initial line but she hung in there and I got it. Then I'll be darn if she didn't line it. Booyah! 
But we were kept humble later in the day when Winter popped on one of our long long shoreline memory blinds. Shoreline blinds are get better but still not there.


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## Claudia M

EvanG said:


> Why will you try not to use the single most effective tool in retriever training? One of the dogs I trained as a pro was FC-AFC Blackwater Bart II. At 13 months he had 8 Derby points and was QAA (qualified all-age). I certainly wouldn't expect very many dogs to achieve that, but at 15 months all of them are doing Qualifying-level work. That is very unlikely without the e-collar, coupled with a sound method for its use.
> 
> EvanG


Thank you Evan. I will not get into an e-collar conversation except to say that when my DH trained his dogs before (80s) he did not use one and I am trying to do the same. Also I personally would not run Rose until she is 2 and has all the X-rays done. Until that time her training is mostly obedience with emphasis on field training. I will also mention one thing that James Free Lamb stated in his book in regards to the advantage an owner has over the pro trainer - time. The owner does not have to rush in training his dog while the pro has to show progress to the owner and also has more than just one dog to train.


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## EvanG

You're welcome. I'm not recruiting for the e-collar brigade. I'm just inquiring, and hoping to help.

EvanG


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## Claudia M

That is good to know Evan, especially since this is not the first time you told me that I won't get far without an e-collar. I assume it is hard to keep track to whom you are responding to. 
As J. F. Lamb said I have time on my side and I want to have fun with my dog during that time. 
Dave Elliot re-invented the wheel when he invented the blind retrieve. 

The Blind Retrieve: An Overview


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## EvanG

You're right Claudia. I respond to many people about their dogs. To be clear, I didn't tell you, or anyone that they would "not get far without an e-collar". But clarifying what I consistently say in this regard may start a pro or anti collar thread, and that's not my aim.

They're efficient, effective, and humane. They are more so than any other implement, and so the do facilitate a much smoother progression, and to higher levels. That is why I speak as an advocate for their use. But I would never assert that a trainer will not get far without one.

EvanG


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## Sweese

When I trained back in the 80s the "e-collars" were heavy, very basic and except for the most expensive collars they only had a couple of settings. In some cases low was hot and hot was very hot making the dog vocalize (not good). I would never use one on a very young dog.
I am not sure everyone knows that the collars today are lightweight, very advanced (My Sportsdog 425 has 16 settings) and you use them as you would other tools like using harnesses, collars, chains, pinch collars, training stick, check cords, ear pinch, etc. You probably know what some of the these tools/methods feel like to your own skin. Just so I knew what my dog would be experiencing I dropped the 425 on my arm and I tried it out on the lowest setting. It was no big deal in fact I really could not feel it at all. The new collars should be used so they bring discomfort but not vocalization which of course is not much different than the proper way to use the other tools/methods mentioned above. Here are couple of excellent videos that show you the proper use of the e-collar and how it is worked in:










 
I started conditioning my pup at 5 months and brought it along side other tools mentioned above and it has been a fantastic tool for all elements of obedience. One way it can be used in advanced training is to keep your dog from returning along the shore. If conditioned properly you now have a very long distance check cord. A button tap with "here" or the whistle and my dog just turns and comes straight back. Swimming with a check cord is dangerous! The e-collar method is much better.

The new technology is great. It probably will not be long before my dog is making her own facebook posts after retrieves!

Jay


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## Claudia M

Thank you Jay. If I will ever consider using them I will certainly seek the knowledge and help of a trainer. 
Rose has taken quite good at several blinds this weekend. Today we mixed a couple blind retrieves with a couple single and double marks. She was focused and got every single one, no matter if she was sent from the line or from the distance. 
I may eat my words tomorrow but today was a good day. In the morning we played a couple Frisbees in the yard and then stopped and sent her to the kennel from close by to a couple yards away. Also would send her back at a distance and stop her with the whistle - her reward was to catch the Frisbee. In the evening we did retrieves both blind and marks. 
Darcy is coming along but slower. We did a couple singles and doubles this evening and of course she was part of the Frisbee game. She is following Rose and that helps.


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## gdgli

I attended an HRC test a week ago. I went to see my friends' dog run. I haven't been doing HRC, AKC instead. I was talked into running my dog the next day and I did. I have to say that I liked the event especially since I felt that the rules allowed me training opportunities in a real Hunt Test situation as opposed to a simulated Hunt Test. These opportunities are not found in AKC Hunt Tests due to some slight differences in the rules.

For example, the judges' instructions were to send the dog when ready, I could send when the bird hit the ground. They did not call the dog's number. I think this is great because now the dog does not learn the sequence "dog-Buffy" for the retrieve but instead learns "Buffy" as the cue for the retrieve. Use of "dog" can lead to anticipation of the send and a dog leaving the line before being sent.


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## MillionsofPeaches

George, the recent test we did was HRC. my trainer wanted me to do that first because he feels they are a little less stressful for the beginning levels. He is mostly involved with HRC and judges for them so I followed his lead and we were glad we did. We'll do our first AKC in November but until then we will have a couple more HRC tests to go to. I think I'll be the first to have a UKC titled dog in my breeder's pedigree, though, it doesn't do her much good, she is all AKC. 
We loved the laid back friendly attitude of the tests and the hunters there. It really got us all excited to start hunting as a family when my husband comes back from his deployment. Super super excited too, I'm going to a HRC lady handler's seminar in January. That will be very cool!


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## gdgli

Shelby, the attitude of all involved did seem different, more relaxed.


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## MillionsofPeaches

that's what I've heard from people at the test...All I know, the judges were amazing that I had!


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## sterregold

I have run HRC and enjoyed the entry levels--Breeze has her HR. However, in my area the Finished tests tend to be really high end, and there is also something of a good-ol'-boys attitude, especially if you are female and show up with a a non-field bred, non-Labrador. They were fine at Started, but once I got into Seasoned and had to handle the gun, it was like they assumed that I did not know how to safely handle a shotgun because I was female, even though I brought my own lefty to use in the test. We have lots of women running and judging MH in CKC in Ontario, but only a couple running HRC at the Finished level, and I have yet to see an Ontario club have a woman judging at the Finished level. So that is one of my frustrations with the organization in zone.

We went training up at a pond a friend has access to on Saturday. Part of our purpose was to do some play teaching with some of the 10 week old pups from his recent litter. So we introduced them to wading water, and a bunch of different birds--by the end of the session one of the pups was running round with the goose wing, and had retrieved a pigeon. We also set up three marks and a blind, and ran the big dogs through them according to their training level to show the one family who is new to the game what a fully trained dog can do. So my friends' dogs getting ready to run JH did singles, Butch did a double and a big single, Bonnie did a delayed triple and Breeze did a past-a-point blind (140 yards) and then a water triple. Was very pleased with Bonnie--her last memory bird on the delayed triple was sitting very low in the water and she really had to work for it and did not give up. Breeze has also just recovered from a middle ear infection (and had been doing some very funny weird stuff--like not being able to run or swim in a straight line) and finally did her first really nice triple and blind work in ages. She has come off her layoff REALLY happy to be working again.


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## hotel4dogs

<<sigh>> (I seem to be saying that a lot)
This is the really, really hard part. Tito's leg seems to be 100% now, although I haven't had him off leash so I don't know for sure. I do let him trot a little on the flexi, and I don't see the limp.
So it's hard because I want to get him back to doing things, but I know I shouldn't yet. Therefore I won't. Another 10 days to go of just on-leash walking.


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## gdgli

hotel4dogs said:


> <<sigh>> (I seem to be saying that a lot)
> This is the really, really hard part. Tito's leg seems to be 100% now, although I haven't had him off leash so I don't know for sure. I do let him trot a little on the flexi, and I don't see the limp.
> So it's hard because I want to get him back to doing things, but I know I shouldn't yet. Therefore I won't. Another 10 days to go of just on-leash walking.



Patience, that's what is needed.


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## gdgli

sterregold

I don't fear the high end tests. Bring 'em on. Well on second thought maybe I do fear them. What I do like is the opportunity to use the entry level tests to establish good behavior in the dog. 

Good old boy attitude? Some very sharp comebacks might be effective. I am just waiting for my opportunity to deal with this.


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## Claudia M

Barb, hopefully the rainy weather can help both you and Tito with a nice break to rest and mend. 
Just got back from the vet with Darcy. She gained 3lbs since July. She takes a bit longer as she had no muscle on her and no endurance. But she is coming along good.


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## Alaska7133

Barb,
My dogs hate on leash walking, I'm sure Tito does too! Where does the name Tito come from? 

We got out to Hatcher Pass again yesterday. Saw a lot of ptarmigan, but all from far away. They are all white now. Hunter my dog that doesn't retrieve actually is great at flushing. He didn't find any, but we had fun anyway. Lots of different terrain. In this particular park, we can start shooting 1/4 mile from the road.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Snow, wow!!

Shelly, I know EXACTLY what you mean about the finished levels. Especially about the labs and that my dog sure does have a purdy coat, lol. I went to an HRC seminar for judges and handlers and eek, I was feeling the testosterone!!!
I went and watched all levels of the tests and the finished tests were cut throat. But there were a lot of awesome women out there and that inspired me for sure! The women in the local hrcs are banding together to throw this handler's seminar and will have three pro women trainers for us at all levels of experience. I get the feeling they are trying hard to get more women involved and comfortable so that is very exciting!!


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## hotel4dogs

Tito is Italian for "Little Giant" (from Titus, the Giant). So it's a diminutive of his registered name. And he has been a little giant in every way!
SNOW! Yikes!! Not looking forward to it here!
I get the same smart alec stuff at AKC...running a golden, and a "show dog" besides. But then when they watch him run, it changes  .


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## K9-Design

I get the same vibe from the HRC tests down here, and none of it at AKC. I get the distinct feeling in HRC finished, that they'd like for me to hurry up and move along so they can get back to their good old boy routine. Yuck. Again, none of that in AKC Master or field trials!!!


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## Alaska7133

NAHRA is the same up here. Lots of labs. But I see quite a few field goldens too. I think we're just happy when we can get enough dogs together to have an event anyway. I'm always happy when I see any other breed than a black lab. I get excited when I even see a yellow or chocolate lab. I can say there are a lot of women in field work up here, which makes it really nice. In fact the group I train with is almost all women, only occasionally does a husband show up to throw birds. I'd like to see more kids involved though.

Snow can happen any month here. Even down here at sea level. My Mother was here one year for a couple of weeks in early August. She was not too happy when she saw snow several days in a row, she just couldn't figure out why I live here. Sometimes I wonder myself, until I go to a park, and nobody is there. Like the photo above is an old abandoned mine that was closed back in 1951. We had the place to ourselves. How many places in the US can you go and not see any people?


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## sterregold

gdgli said:


> sterregold
> 
> I don't fear the high end tests. Bring 'em on. Well on second thought maybe I do fear them. What I do like is the opportunity to use the entry level tests to establish good behavior in the dog.
> 
> Good old boy attitude? Some very sharp comebacks might be effective. I am just waiting for my opportunity to deal with this.


They do not say anything overt to you on the line, but there have been some eye-rolling, and big frustrated sigh moments I have noticed when a female handler has an issue clearing the gun or if a non-lab has difficulty with the test. Like Anney said, an atmosphere of "you shouldn't be here" or "let's get this over with". The guys running Goldens, particularly field Goldens do not tend to get the same treatment. One of my friends has a 500 Pt club dog who is also a CKC GMH. The wife handles him in CKC and AKC because she is a better handler, and she can keep him on track in tough technical blinds--but her husband handles in HRC because she has arthritis and is so petite she cannot shoulder and rack the gun to meet safe gun handling standards, and even if she did not have the arthritis, they would need to provide a youth size gun for her to be able to do so, which they will not. The guys in my own club are great--the issue I have noticed is the judges coming in.

I am not afraid of the high end tests--frankly the marking scenarios in AKC and CKC MH tend to be tougher than the 1-2-3 round the horn tests we see in HRC. But we have a clique of judges up here who have run the Grand a number of times, and they came back with "Grand standard" attitude rather than a "weekend Finished standard" attitude. They put dogs out for really nitpicky things, and if you are not the correct sex, or have a showy looking dog some of these boys seem to look for a reason to fail you. Their own wives just come to the tests and watch, all dolled up and made up. It sometimes feels like I have slipped into a '50's version of camo-land...

I love making them eat their attitude though--participated in a demo at an outdoors show with the local clubs, and had the only Golden at the Finished level that day--Breeze was the only do to do the nasty inline triple they set up for the demo clean. All of their super-labs had to be handled on at least one mark.....


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## hotel4dogs

I LOVE this!!!



sterregold said:


> I love making them eat their attitude though--participated in a demo at an outdoors show with the local clubs, and had the only Golden at the Finished level that day--Breeze was the only do to do the nasty inline triple they set up for the demo clean. All of their super-labs had to be handled on at least one mark.....


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## Alaska7133

Shelly,
you are so right! I'm in Alaska the land of testosterone. I also own a construction company and deal with men most of my day. I'm also 5' tall and not a large person. But I've been running a construction company for 16 years and know more than most of the guys around. I've learned to let them open their mouths and just ignore them. I figure most of them don't know much anyway and I can outlast them. That's the way that you have to look at it in the fieldwork game. Just outlast them. Look at Jackie Mertens and women like her. Also keep in mind that most men want you out there in the field too. It's a small minority that are jerks. I know that most nice guys don't like dealing with the jerks anymore then we do. So I look for the nice guys and be helpful with them. Those are the relationships I nurture, the jerks I don't let them see me cry.


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## gdgli

Alaska, don't cry. Show up with chewing tobacco, spit and cuss. Then tell them they have lousy gunners and you just might have to insist on taking over the shooting to show them how it's done. You will get a different reaction.


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## MillionsofPeaches

there was a chick out there chewing tobacco and spitting in the finished test and no one was messing with her one bit!


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## hollyk

I must live in the PC Pacific Northwest.
It's Very common here for women handlers running all levels including FT's. In AKC it seems as likely to get a female judge as a male. In UKC I would say that there are more males, but many of the new judges coming up are female. I did run under a female HRC Finished judge this summer and while I don't think I was given an easier time of it, I did think she was pulling for a gal, who was taking her first dog through Finished and it wasn't a Lab.
People in both venues have been nice and we have gotten compliments from both UKC and AKC judges. I did originally think we needed to prove ourselves more in AKC, especially in Senior. That a more critical eye was cast on us by the gallery, you know, a gal in the middle of her life, bringing a pale Golden to the line. That feeling faded away after a couple of tests when I knew Winter and I could do the work, so probably nerves were talking. Also one of my training partners, who has been playing a long time (gal in her 70's) and has always run Goldens, told me "Golden people need to get over feeling that people are more critical of their dogs. I don't think it's true, a good dog is a good dog and everyone likes to see a good dog run." I have to say I'm now just as comfortable running UKC as AKC, which is to say sick to my stomach in the holding blinds and fine as soon as I call for the birds and have a job to do.


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## Vhuynh2

Thanks for posting Holly, I'm so glad it is not that way here. I have a feeling I would be taken *even less* seriously. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


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## Alaska7133

One of our local FT judges is a golden owner. She has been training goldens since the 60's and running field trials since the 70's. She bred her dogs to Holway Barty back when he was still alive in the 70's. Having a woman in the golden game is great. She also judges our WC and is very active in our GR club.

I was actually kidding about crying. I generally don't have a problem at events. I really believe that most men want us there. I have heard that the FT game is completely different in harshness than HT game. I've never run a dog in an FT.

I am very happy that we have so many women that are active in hunt tests whether they have goldens, labs, chessies, flats, curlies, or a poodle! I would love to see more kids at the events.


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## sterregold

hollyk said:


> I must live in the PC Pacific Northwest.
> It's Very common here for women handlers running all levels including FT's. In AKC it seems as likely to get a female judge as a male. In UKC I would say that there are more males, but many of the new judges coming up are female. I did run under a female HRC Finished judge this summer and while I don't think I give an easier time of it I did think she was pulling for a gal, who was taking her first dog through Finished and it wasn't a Lab.
> People in both venues have been nice and we have gotten compliments from both UKC and AKC judges. I did originally think we needed to prove ourselves more in AKC, especially in Senior. That a more critical eye was cast on us by the gallery, you know, a gal in the middle of her life, bringing a pale Golden to the line. That feeling faded away after a couple of tests when I knew Winter and I could do the work, so probably nerves were talking. Also one of my training partners, who has been playing a long time (gal in her 70's) and has always run Goldens, told me "Golden people need to get over feeling that people are more critical of their dogs. I don't think it's true, a good dog is a good dog and everyone likes to see a good dog run." I have to say I'm now just as comfortable running UKC as AKC, which is to say sick to my stomach in the holding blinds and fine as soon as I call for the birds and have a job to do.


It is only in the HRC tests that this is an issue. We have lots of women running and judging CKC HTs and FTs, and have done so for years. (Quebec seems to be the one exception to this where even CKC events are male dominated at the upper levels.) One test I judged this summer had an all-female judging panel! And one of the female members of my retriever club's BOD has judged a Cdn National Open (our entire BOD are Golden people now--we are taking over!!), and another female friend is judging it next year. 

Now too there are plenty of people who live in my zone who travel to run HRC tests because they do not like what goes on the ones here, so that says a lot too!


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## Claudia M

Today we decided to "salt" the yard with several bumpers without her seeing them and then send Rose to each. So far she has done excellent and once again it was dark.


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## Alaska7133

Anyone ever skip AKC Junior Hunt and go right to Senior Hunt? Just curious. I ran into someone that was planning on running their boy at the higher level first.


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## sterregold

I know some people who just train for MH and start there now with the cost of entry fees and gas. I personally like running my dogs through the levels as I find it helps me get to know what makes the dog tick in a test situation.


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## hotel4dogs

It's pretty common around here for experienced handlers to skip the lower levels, as Shelly said, mostly because of $$ . But new handlers seem to run from JH on up.
I went right into MH for the Spaniel tests because of time and money. 

Took the Monster Boy for an onleash walk today along a nature trail. Unfortunately, there's cover on both sides of it that looks like pheasant habitat (and probably is). He spent the entire time searching carefully for pheasants. 
He did, however, quarter nicely back and forth across the wide gravel path in between the hedgerows when told to do so  .


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## hollyk

My friend will be running her MH x FC lab girl in only one or two Senior/Seasoned stakes to make sure they are on track and then jump up To Finished/Master.
I will have run all the levels in both HRC and AKC with Winter. I doubt if I will with my next dog. It will depend on what the breeder's expectations are.


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## Alaska7133

Barb,
What is the acronym for master hunter spaniel test title? Will you run more spaniel tests next year?


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## Tatnall

Alaska7133 said:


> Anyone ever skip AKC Junior Hunt and go right to Senior Hunt? Just curious. I ran into someone that was planning on running their boy at the higher level first.


I wouldn't. Even though nothing good can happen training-wise by running a young dog--whether it is Derby or JH--that is the most fun time to run.


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## Tatnall

Alaska7133 said:


> I have heard that the FT game is completely different in harshness than HT game. I've never run a dog in an FT.


IMO, FT folks are generally much nicer and less arrogant than HT folks. That is why my wife won't even go when I run the occasional HT unless it is one where some old friends are there and we are cooking out.

FT folks are competitive, sure, but the failures far outweigh the ribbons, so folks are pretty even keeled. Even folks with "N" in their titles have had that dog blow up and had to do the walk of shame. Besides, if you run a bad dog that is one dog they don't have to worry about beating them 

I think that for some HT folks, particularly some of the pros, getting a bunch of ribbons every weekend makes them expect it and blame others when their dog does not do well..


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## hollyk

Tatnall said:


> I wouldn't. Even though nothing good can happen training-wise by running a young dog--whether it is Derby or JH--that is the most fun time to run.


OK, maybe I would like to try running a Derby.


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## hotel4dogs

The spaniel test titles will be:
JHU junior hunter upland
SHU senior hunter upland
MHU master hunter upland

I do plan to run more of them as soon as I can find some. We had to scratch from the October 19 and 20 tests because of his injury  .


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## K9-Design

I wouldn't have run Slater in Junior except a friend offered to pay for his entries at the first weekend (2 tests) because I had done some work for her. How could I say no? 
With Bally I will not run him until he is handling and decheated. So at that point why not just enter Senior. Tests are very seasonal around here so if I think he could swing Master when the tests came around I would go for it. Long way away from that so we'll see when his first Junior test is! HAHAHA


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## Tatnall

K9-Design said:


> With Bally I will not run him until he is handling and decheated. So at that point why not just enter Senior. Tests are very seasonal around here so if I think he could swing Master when the tests came around I would go for it. Long way away from that so we'll see when his first Junior test is! HAHAHA


That is a good point. When I say I would run Junior, I would not do so unless the dog is just about ready--if not completely ready--for Senior. I would not run a dog in Junior that wasn't de-cheated. Typically, I wouldn't go to Senior until we thought we were ready for Master but that is more iffy because of the big jump between those two. We don't have tests in the summer but in the spring and fall there are test about every weekend close by, so it isn't that difficult or expensive.


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## Tatnall

hollyk said:


> OK, maybe I would like to try running a Derby.


If your dog can mark, and doesn't mind running long if it has to, you should definitely try a derby. They are a lot of fun to run and great to watch all those talented young dogs do their thing. The pure joy those young critters show makes it one of my favorites and I always try to get to a trial in time to watch some of the derby. 

I like judging them a lot as well but find it is often a tough one to set up. You get the worst grounds but you still have to find marks that let the best markers rise to the top without requiring much training and setting up cheaty stuff.


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## Alaska7133

Interesting comment on running field trials. I'm looking forward to volunteering at golden national field trials and watching the big dogs run. Normally up here we only have 6 field trials and 6 AKC hunt tests in a season. Season here is very short - June, July, August. NAHRA has 6 hunt tests too, HRC I think only has 4. So we have to be quick about it and not waste a season. A lot of good dogs spend the season in the states. Where's AKGOLD? John runs his in the states only. So yes my ears perked up when I heard I could skip a level with my dogs.


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## Alaska7133

Trained this weekend in the rain. Last year at this time we had a bunch of snow on the ground, the ground was well frozen, no open water and it was about 22 degrees. So 42 and rain I'll take! It has now been a year since I began fieldwork with Lucy. It's been fun to think about how far the show puppy has come. We've made it through the basics, forced fetch, collar conditioning (recall only), and now we've started on handling. This weekend was pile work with bumpers, which I can tell she doesn't feel the need to do, so I had to do a bit of forcing. Then I switched to using ducks for pile work, and her attitude improved. Then today was singles and doubles only about 100 yards with bumpers then ducks. Her line manners are so much better. Reilly is just fine with shorter distances, he just can't see that far. But now he's so over the top to get a duck, he's really flipping them in the air and catching them when he goes to pick them up. Now he's begun clamping down on the bird and not wanting to let go, he's focused on the next bird for a double, but there I am trying to get the bird out of his mouth before sending him. All the while he's shaking like a leaf he's so excited. It's like sensory overload for him. Someone said it would get less over time, but gosh it seems to be getting worse. It's hard to get upset with him since he's so excited to get a bird! I wish my life was that simple!

Anyone using a go-pro video camera or something like that to film their dogs running for review later? I'm thinking it might help me see what I'm doing wrong.


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## gdgli

I had a great day Sunday. Buffy was entered in a Gun Dog Stake at Pinelands RC. She made it through two series. She was in the money and was one of the four dogs called back to the final series for placements. She was eliminated in the final series and I was extremely disappointed but again, I use this for information on her needs in training. We had the opportunity to go back after it was over and do some training on her issues. I try to never miss an opportunity.


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## Claudia M

Stacey, I use my regular camera with a tripod. Alas, sometimes I forget to turn it on or off. When I forget to turn it off the files are too big to upload to FB but it is still nice to watch


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## Alaska7133

Gdgli,
I looked at Pinelands gun dog stakes rules. Very nice way to compete with your dog. Owner handled, not pro handled. Just out of curiosity do many people at hunt tests in your area use pros to run their dogs?


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## gdgli

Entrants---I would guess 50%. Almost everyone encounters a pro somewhere along the line.


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## MillionsofPeaches

had a fabulous day out at a tech pond our trainer set up. My daughter, 14, has decided she wants to run our youngest. The trainer helped her out and Peaches did fantastic. My daughter is hooked now and it was so fun to sit back and watch her!


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## Claudia M

not much related to field work. Today Rose did wonderful in class. I have been taking her to obedience classes on Mondays - that is where I met Darcy's breeder. Today we had only 3 dogs (Rose included) in class. So we did almost everything off leash. It was awesome. I sent her to the table, she jumped, turned, sat and looked at me for the come. She did her best recall ever. I even tricked her with my body language to make her break the stay and she did not budge until I said come. We did figure eights off leash with the other two dogs as "obstacles", fronts, right heel and left heel - all nice and tight, walking heels slow, normal, fast, down from walk, halt from walk etc. My baby made me proud! And the part of the tricks came up. I decided to show the trainer who is completely non-field inclined how Rose does her retrieves. Put her on a whoa, went half the lenght of the barn, told her to mark and threw the bumper to the other end, went back to her heel and sent her, she went for it, got it and brought it back, swinging into a heel and holding it until I told her to leave it (simple single retrieve but that has finally made the trainer appreciate the field work a bit more; plus it was the first time I had Rose retrieve with other dogs around watching).


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## gdgli

Claudia

Nice work!


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## MillionsofPeaches

that's so great, Claudia! I bet that made you feel great, there's nothing like it when your dog struts their stuff!


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## Claudia M

MillionsofPeaches said:


> that's so great, Claudia! I bet that made you feel great, there's nothing like it when your dog struts their stuff!


OMG yes. I've been doing more and more off leash with her in the class but not as much as yesterday. Last week we had the rally set up and I started her off leash as I was trying to figure out what this rally is all about but then she decided to lick the chalk markings as the trainer was measuring and writing the different whoa/come lengths at the end of the rally thingy. Had to put the leash back on and move to the other side of the barn for lenght jumps and height jumps instead. There were 7 dogs in last week and they were all in the crates while the owners were going thru the rally ring. Rose had nothing to do with the crates, all the dogs were whining and yapping and barking - she hates that. We did the rally off leash and she did pretty decent but it did not flow as it did with the other dogs. I also learned to be happy with her instead of disappointed and expect perfection from first try.


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## PalouseDogs

Claudia M said:


> We did the rally off leash and she did pretty decent but it did not flow as it did with the other dogs. I also learned to be happy with her instead of disappointed and expect perfection from first try.


You're not asking for advice, so feel free to blow it off. Good for you, for not expecting "perfection from the first try." You are in a class to TRAIN. If the two of you already knew how to do it, you wouldn't be in a class. Reading between the lines, it sounds like you sometimes see the class as a test. Class is for training, not testing. No matter how good your dog looks compared to the other dogs or vice-versa, no one in that class is going to get a ribbon or a rally leg from the class. 

Put the leash back on and train each Rally exercise, don't test her on it during class. 

(Going out of teacher mode and back into lurker mode.)


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## Claudia M

Ha Kelly, yes I am competitive and do not take failure pretty well (I know Barb will smack me for this). Rose is the first dog I ever trained, so many times the training language is quite foreign to me. I am following DH's steps in reading as much as I can and anticipating my next steps and preparing towards the next steps. I have an upper hand over him as now there are tons of you-tube and training videos that can help (but you still have to sort them out). Plus I have him for guidance and of course you guys!!!


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## Claudia M

Had a mish mash of a training weekend. We took Rose yesterday afternoon in the big field. Wow - she saw the bumper, she marked it but on her way to it there were tens of deer beds and new smells and she did horrible. I was surprised that she remembered the bumper after all that. Darcy was no better yesterday evening. She kept on returning the bumper to me (The thrower) instead of DH (The handler). 
This morning they both sort of redeemed themselves. First bumper Rose gets a mild case of the zoomies and finally she returns the bumper; second throw was the duck bumper and she sort of decided to see if she can lay down and take a bite. The next 4 were back to normal.


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## hotel4dogs

we are counting down the days! After 5 weeks off, we have an agility lesson on Wednesday, a field lesson on Thursday, and agility trials on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
Hopefully, he'll be okay....I haven't seen any sign of limping for at least 10 days now.


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## Claudia M

So glad Tito Monster is back to normal!!! I don't know how you do it. I am trying to juggle one class during the week and now Darcy will start obedience in November. Rose is to go in heat any moment so I will continue the obedience until then and after the heat hope to go into beginner agility.


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## gdgli

I just got in from doing some blinds with Buffy. My mentor has told me not to think Senior but to think of Master instead. Soooo, that is now our new attitude.


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## Claudia M

That is great George!!!! 
I so wish blinds would be considered, going on deer and coyote trails and then coming back to the bumper 5 min later!


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## PalouseDogs

After Maple finished her Junior and SR titles in September, we focused on obedience, trying to get a leg or two in Open. We had our last obedience trial a couple of weeks ago. Maple finished out the year with two Open legs, but, alas, blew the last Q for the title on her most reliable exercised, the Drop on Recall. The CDX will have to wait until next year. We'll spend the winter working on Utility and perfecting Open. 

No more hunt tests or obedience trials for 6 months. It's nice to train without the looming pressure of a test/trial for a while. For hunt training, I should be heading up to the training grounds (a 3-hour drive) before it gets too cold for swimming, but I'm a bit burned out on long drives and having my weekends consumed with dog training or testing. 

So, I've been trying to be inventive and making the most out of yard training for blinds.  We're doing short blinds, but with increasing distractions. We did the running between two white bumpers for the more distant orange bumpers until she got better at taking a line to the orange. Next, I went to putting white stakes in the yard and sending between the stakes to an orange bumper. This has proved a difficult challenge!! I thought it would be easy after the white bumpers, but she wants to run to the white stakes. 

Why are white stakes such a draw? In the field, I've been using stakes to mark blinds, but never white stakes. My blind stakes were wrapped with camo tape with an orange cone on top. I tried to break up the outline of the cone with strips of tape I had been growing more and more suspicious that she could see the camo stakes. With her firm belief that she needs to run to stakes I'm more convinced than ever that she could see the stakes. 

The last couple of days, she's showing more willingness to ignore the stakes, or at least handle away from them, so I think we are making progress.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Had a fun weekend! Kat got her started title!! It is her first real title (CGC is the other one she has.) I have to say it was the most amazing feeling walking off the line towards my friends knowing Kat had titled and we did it! I was so proud of her and proud of myself, all that hard work is paying off! I'm excited to see how far we go together!


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## hotel4dogs

congratulations!! First of MANY!


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## Claudia M

PalouseDogs said:


> ...So, I've been trying to be inventive and making the most out of yard training for blinds. We're doing short blinds, but with increasing distractions. We did the running between two white bumpers for the more distant orange bumpers until she got better at taking a line to the orange. Next, I went to putting white stakes in the yard and sending between the stakes to an orange bumper. This has proved a difficult challenge!! I thought it would be easy after the white bumpers, but she wants to run to the white stakes.
> 
> Why are white stakes such a draw? In the field, I've been using stakes to mark blinds, but never white stakes. My blind stakes were wrapped with camo tape with an orange cone on top. I tried to break up the outline of the cone with strips of tape I had been growing more and more suspicious that she could see the camo stakes. With her firm belief that she needs to run to stakes I'm more convinced than ever that she could see the stakes.
> 
> The last couple of days, she's showing more willingness to ignore the stakes, or at least handle away from them, so I think we are making progress.


Kelly, in Jim Spencer books he starts training the blind retrieves using an orange cone covered in white because it is much easier for the to see. 
Yesterday evening for the first time Rose passed the orange bumper. I used it for a long double with the orange one being thrown last. She passed it, turned back, passed it again and then went for the first bumper thrown. Got that and then at the line she will still not lock on the second direction (orange bumper), she wanted to go again to the first white bumper which she already retrieved. We repeated the same double on a shorter distance and she did good. 
Now things come into my mind, like is her vision OK, was she tired since she did 6 retrieves early in the morning, had two Frisbee play sessions during the day, or is she finally coming into heat (I have been expecting her to go into heat since August)?


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## Claudia M

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Had a fun weekend! Kat got her started title!! It is her first real title (CGC is the other one she has.) I have to say it was the most amazing feeling walking off the line towards my friends knowing Kat had titled and we did it! I was so proud of her and proud of myself, all that hard work is paying off! I'm excited to see how far we go together!


good job Shelby and Kat!!!


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## MillionsofPeaches

Claudia that is how my trainer started us too. Orange coat spray painted white. I am reading Spencer too and my trainer trains nearly the same way so its kind of cool


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## Claudia M

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Claudia that is how my trainer started us too. Orange coat spray painted white. I am reading Spencer too and my trainer trains nearly the same way so its kind of cool


The only thing that got me stuck so far in his books was the directional training. He did not really explain how to get there. Reason why I searched for the Shropshire videos. Also found the Pat Nolan videos where he uses the tables. 

So last week I delegated: Daughter to make the three orange cones look like Halloween Ghosts and Step son to build me some outdoor tables. We will see which one finishes first. With hunting season coming up my bets are on my daughter and may just have to buy the tables.


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## PalouseDogs

Claudia, Your dog doesn't have a vision problem. Well, she might have a vision problem, but not seeing an orange bumper won't tell you anything. Dogs see orange very poorly. Maple finds the orange bumpers mostly by scent. I see her run right by them, then make a sharp turn when she catches the scent. Your dog was probably passing the bumper upwind or there was no wind or whatever. 

I love James Spence. I did, in fact, start with the white cones, although I phased them out pretty quickly. Maple DOES appear to be able to see orange cones, probably because of their smooth texture which makes them more visible. I moved away from Spence and towards Lardy for a while, and also got a couple of lessons in baseball and double T from a pro trainer. However, Maple's attitude was plunging and I felt there was too much correcting for confusion. (Yeah I know, most hunt trainers say choose a program and follow it. So shoot me. It's my dog.)

I'm falling back to more of an obedience algorithm, which I feel more comfortable with. Train without correction until the dog is nearly always right, proof, and take it on the road. Use the minimum amount of correction necessary and give the dog the benefit of the doubt before correcting. The white stakes are part of the proofing, to teach her to move away from suction. 

My recommendation to others is to follow a proven method, like Lardy's. I'm still stumbling along making a million mistakes.


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## hollyk

gdgli said:


> I just got in from doing some blinds with Buffy. My mentor has told me not to think Senior but to think of Master instead. Soooo, that is now our new attitude.


Yep, that's what we did. When you do run Senior you will look at the blind and say "Easy Squeeze".


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## gdgli

M o P


Congratulations! I know you are hooked. Will you be shooting over her this Winter?


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## hollyk

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Had a fun weekend! Kat got her started title!! It is her first real title (CGC is the other one she has.) I have to say it was the most amazing feeling walking off the line towards my friends knowing Kat had titled and we did it! I was so proud of her and proud of myself, all that hard work is paying off! I'm excited to see how far we go together!


WooHoo! You deserve to be proud, well done.


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## MillionsofPeaches

George, I don't think I'll be ready by winter but my trainer thinks spring. She is fine with the doubles and her marking is good and lining for me is getting better but the blind is something we are just learning. Although when the trainer casts she is doing great. When I cast she is just now getting more consistent about responding to me. I have a lot to learn. I have been practicing my gun stuff at home since it is new to me too but I work with the gun occasionally at training. I can't wait to really get into casting. I love it, there is such an art to it, imo. 

Right now we are starting on live fliers with her for JH. She is NOT birdy and took several months to freely take birds on her own even after FF. So we're worried she won't pick up an injured bird without being exposed to it first. And if it goes the way I'm thinking it will go, it might take awhile. My first AKC will be mid November so lets home she can handle it if she gets one at the JH test.


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## gdgli

Exposure to flyers just might be the trick. Fluttering wings, fresh scent, a warm bird---these really stimulate some dogs.


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## EvanG

gdgli said:


> Exposure to flyers just might be the trick. Fluttering wings, fresh scent, a warm bird---these really stimulate some dogs.


Nothing equals the effects of a shot flyer on a quality retriever in the right setting.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs

yes, can stimulate some dogs to do the "golden retriever 3 mile dash" if the bird is still flying :doh:


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## Alaska7133

MOP,
Lucy's mom won't pick up a somewhat alive bird. So her owner has spent a lot of time with her and live pigeons throwing short distances to get her going. I'll find out next spring at the early hunt tests to see if it worked. The owner has been taking live pigeons and tying one wing so it can only fly a short distance. Have you tried anything like that?


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## EvanG

hotel4dogs said:


> yes, can stimulate some dogs to do the "golden retriever 3 mile dash" if the bird is still flying :doh:


But that's not exclusive to Goldens! 


Alaska7133 said:


> MOP,
> Lucy's mom won't pick up a somewhat alive bird. So her owner has spent a lot of time with her and live pigeons throwing short distances to get her going. I'll find out next spring at the early hunt tests to see if it worked. The owner has been taking live pigeons and tying one wing so it can only fly a short distance. Have you tried anything like that?


Sure. That's why force fetch has many steps, not just one or two. If you finish the full program this should not be an issue. The next-to-last step is force to pile with real birds (first dead ones, then live shackled ones). But by then you should have all the skills well in place. Those are the tools of the trade for a working retriever.

EvanG


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## Alaska7133

Evan,
I'm on force to pile with dead birds stage with Lucy. I was just very surprised that her mom had issues with somewhat alive birds, whereas Lucy has absolutely no issues with any birds alive or dead. A woman I train with suggested that show puppies will have more of a problem with live birds and also people training older puppies instead of young puppies on live birds. What do you think? Do you run into age or breeding being a factor with picking up live or dead birds?


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## EvanG

I agree, but perhaps not for the more obvious reasons. I don't necessarily think it's because of show _breeding_. Folks who are focused on the show ring are far lest apt to expose young pups to live birds...or any birds...as early or methodically as those whose interests run toward fieldwork. They are also far lest apt to train to the level we do.

EvanG


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## MillionsofPeaches

thanks guys! I certainly hope this is the case as far as getting her amped up. Thursday should be a fun training day, it is all live fliers. I am waiting so see what happens. Kat knows fetch and she will fetch even if she doesn't want to so we'll see. My trainer doesn't appear to be too worried. 

The thing is, I think if a live flier came out at a test, she'd do it. It is like she instinctively knows that she is at a test and she is putting her knowledge to test. So she wouldn't let me, per se. (I know she is a dog and a dog is a dog at any moment) But at training she definitely knows that she is practicing and she will be lazy or whatever sometimes. Not too bad but on new stuff that she doesn't want to do, then yeah, sometimes things can get hot. 

It would be awesome if her speed picked up with the birdy flapping around. When we have short marks she is slower but on distance marks she will take off. She is just now getting faster and I believe that is confidence building up because during "play" she is a like a deer running and hopping through the fields. During "work" she is slower like she is really thinking everything through. My trainer calls her a fretter. She is very steady and reliable but as far as zip and flash she is not that. I used to stress about it and it just made her slower, now I just encourage her and she is faster. She is such a wonderful dog and I'm not going to be bummed if she isn't as flashy as those labs. (She's a lot prettier, ha ha!)

Oh well, it is a process and we'll get there. Today I was on my own and my trainer sat and watched me do casting drills while he instructed. He told me I look like John Travolta on Saturday Night Fever because i'm bouncing both arms out instead of one. At the time I had no idea but then we he said it I realized I sure was! No wonder Kat was confused, ha ha! 
I always told him I am NOT coordinated, lol, so no surprise there! What a crazy fun journey this is!
Tomorrow all drill. Kat will just LOOOOOVVVE that...(hear my sarcasm)


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## MillionsofPeaches

Oh btw, Stacey, we haven't done anything with any live birds just because we just wanted to focus on the HRC at hand and now we'll move forward...

Also, she wasn't old per se but she was about 10 months when I started bringing her to training and she was exposed to birds. She was the pick bitch to be the star show dog so she was really being prepped for that, not hunt. I got her and decided to go that route cuz I love this so much and she loves retrieving so much (that is anything besides that bird now she loves the "dead" birds.) When we get our next puppy I'm exposing birds super early, like before it comes home to me, lol. I do not want to fight the bird thing again if I can help it.


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## hotel4dogs

I do think there is some genetics involved. Tito never saw a bird until he was over 3 years old, and he's obsessed with them. Will pick up any bird, alive, dead, regardless of species, dive under water to get them, run a long way to catch them, trail them through heavy cover, as long as it has feathers, he's thrilled. Even several days old and covered in maggots.
So it's not just age of introduction.


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## gdgli

MoP

Katniss---named after the girl in Hunger Games?


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## MillionsofPeaches

Yep, her full name is Girl on Fire and her call name is Katniss. I didn't name her, the breeder did, she was supposed to be her dog. I mainly call her kat or kit kat or kitty cat. She gets lots of attention on the Kat name from the judges.


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## hotel4dogs

Ok, I know this is sneaking in an agility comment, but...
We just got back from our agility lesson. LOTS of jumps, and 
N O L I M P I N G ! ! !
Yay!! 
Since the injured leg was a front leg, I'm really pleased that the jumps didn't cause a problem. We should be good to go for field training tomorrow.


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## MillionsofPeaches

oh that is super news!!! wow, it sounds all healed up now!


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## EvanG

hotel4dogs said:


> Ok, I know this is sneaking in an agility comment, but...
> We just got back from our agility lesson. LOTS of jumps, and
> N O L I M P I N G ! ! !
> Yay!!
> Since the injured leg was a front leg, I'm really pleased that the jumps didn't cause a problem. We should be good to go for field training tomorrow.


:headbang2
Yeah! That's a great outcome.

EvanG


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## boomers_dawn

We're on training vacation. The days are getting short anyway, so will probably go into winter mode - weekends only and indoor work. Can focus on Dee Dee more.

I took Gladys hunting last weekend, didn't see any birds, just one small feather tuft. I think they may have stocked like one bird, but Gladys did a good job of doing what she was supposed to and what she was told.


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## hotel4dogs

We had an awesome time today. 
Started out with about a dozen progressively harder marks in fresh cut corn stubble. He was spot on with the marking, despite the corn being rather challenging.
Then the real fun....45 minutes of non-stop upland excitement. Tito flushed 4 chukkars and 1 pheasant. He was rock steady. 
But the best part of all....despite the rough terrain in the corn field, and the non-stop upland action, NO LIMPING!!! 
I'm so relieved!


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## MillionsofPeaches

that is great!!! I bet he was so happy out there


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## hotel4dogs

oh yes, he was having a great time. On the way home he barfed up a pile of feathers...silly dog, you're supposed to spit them out when you get a mouthful, not swallow them!


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## MillionsofPeaches

well we did the live flyers today. Kat ran out there right up to a flapping duck thinking it was dead like always and turned right around and started back. I told her to fetch a few times and by then the bird was calm and she got it. the second one she got it on her own but it was about dead. Then my trainer launched one without shooting it. It was in the field squacking and hissing and Kat was not into that at all. She was going to it then running back and so forth. Finally after trying to get her to fetch we reminded her what that fetch really means and she went and got it. We did that a couple of other times throughout the rest of the morning with the alive bird. She definitely knows what is expected of her and she will do it but does not want to do it with that very alive squawker. My trainer said this is worst case so hopefully it won't get much worse than that for her...

I was thinking about the quality retriever comment a couple posts back. While she might not be what one thinks of as a quality retriever because her prey drive isn't off the charts doesn't negate that she is quality retriever to me. She will do whatever I ask of her just to please me even when she doesn't want to. I will always love her and appreciate her for trusting me and loving me that way.


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## hollyk

hotel4dogs said:


> We had an awesome time today.
> Started out with about a dozen progressively harder marks in fresh cut corn stubble. He was spot on with the marking, despite the corn being rather challenging.
> Then the real fun....45 minutes of non-stop upland excitement. Tito flushed 4 chukkars and 1 pheasant. He was rock steady.
> But the best part of all....despite the rough terrain in the corn field, and the non-stop upland action, NO LIMPING!!!
> I'm so relieved!


I'm happy to hear T is feeling fine.


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## hotel4dogs

Shelby, there is a lot to be said for willingness to please, and trainability.
If you wanted to breed her to sell puppies to hard-core hunting homes, I would say that maybe you should re-think it. But since I know that's not your plan with her, be glad you have a wonderful dog who is so willing to do whatever is asked of her. That, after all, is what these guys are really all about. 
Tito HATES competitive obedience. Just plain HATES it. But he zoomed through the titles, simply because he will do whatever I ask him to do. I think it's one of his best attributes!


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## hollyk

We were out training a couple of days ago and Winter ran her first bulldog mark. My understanding is a bulldog mark is throw when a dog is coming back from another mark and you get a free handle.
Mark 1, Memory, was throw from top of hill down to the flat below.
Mark 2, Go, thrown across the channel onto land.
Mark 3 was thrown as the dog was returning from Go mark and had to be picked up 2nd.
After all the marks were picked up you ran the water blind.







Winter picked up the 1st mark, she wanted the memory bird but I was able to to pull her to the Bulldog, "no here, where's your mark" and when she locked on "good, right there". She picked up the Bulldog without a handle. Then we lined up for the Memory. The land sloped up away from us on this mark then leveled out, the mark was about 40 yards back from where it plateaued. Winter got caught up at the beginning of the flat and I had to handle her back to the mark. This set up was a part of a Master test that was run this summer. I was told Winter did exactly what many dogs in the test did on the 3rd mark. 
We then ran the water blind. I had trouble get her to lock on the line, she knew the line wasn't to the right, toward the old fall, but she wanted to lock too far left. I ended up stepping forward and finally sending on a "good enough" line. It did take a couple of whistle (black dots' to get her lined up well, but then she saw the picture, put herself in the sweet spot and picked up the blind.
I'm having trouble communicating the line to her on water blinds when it is not straight forward. This blind was a good example, she couldn't see the picture right off the bat so I had a hard time getting a lock. Will this get better with experience? On land blinds we do well getting the line but on water is can still be a struggle.


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## MillionsofPeaches

hotel4dogs said:


> Shelby, there is a lot to be said for willingness to please, and trainability.
> If you wanted to breed her to sell puppies to hard-core hunting homes, I would say that maybe you should re-think it. But since I know that's not your plan with her, be glad you have a wonderful dog who is so willing to do whatever is asked of her. That, after all, is what these guys are really all about.
> Tito HATES competitive obedience. Just plain HATES it. But he zoomed through the titles, simply because he will do whatever I ask him to do. I think it's one of his best attributes!



You are so right! She is spayed, lol, so yes, that is not an issue! ha!! 
Kat loves loves loves this stuff and doesn't love obedience all that much so for her I guess the trade off of picking up stinky birds is worth it to her over working on obedience all the time. Shoot, I use fun bumpers as her "treat" over food in obedience work so I get that with Tito for sure!


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## Tatnall

hollyk said:


> I'm having trouble communicating the line to her on water blinds when it is not straight forward. This blind was a good example, she couldn't see the picture right off the bat so I had a hard time getting a lock. Will this get better with experience? On land blinds we do well getting the line but on water is can still be a struggle.


Looks like a darn good job.

To answer your question, generally, yes. Running more blinds and giving the dog more experience will help them get the pictures. Obviously you want balance in your training but the 'old pros' tend to get the picture quite quickly while the young dogs take more time.

You may already do this, but you can help your dog as a handler. Think about the line and the blind before you come from the holding blind. If possible take a route that walks you both straight toward the line. When you sit, do whatever possible to get the first look out to be at the blind. It doesn't have to be perfect but the more you get that first look versus just sitting down and adjusting from there the better off you will be.

Same thing on marks, by the way. I want my first look out in the field to be right at the money bird. Then they can survey the area or we can turn to look at the other birds.


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## hollyk

Tatnall said:


> Looks like a darn good job.
> 
> To answer your question, generally, yes. Running more blinds and giving the dog more experience will help them get the pictures. Obviously you want balance in your training but the 'old pros' tend to get the picture quite quickly while the young dogs take more time.
> 
> You may already do this, but you can help your dog as a handler. Think about the line and the blind before you come from the holding blind. If possible take a route that walks you both straight toward the line. When you sit, do whatever possible to get the first look out to be at the blind. It doesn't have to be perfect but the more you get that first look versus just sitting down and adjusting from there the better off you will be.
> 
> Same thing on marks, by the way. I want my first look out in the field to be right at the money bird. Then they can survey the area or we can turn to look at the other birds.


Yes, I have been schooled to think about my line to get that first good look, but like my dog I'm still gaining experience. My other bad habit is turning her off a mark too fast. In fact, on the set up above I did turn her off too fast on the first mark down. I have to wonder if it effect her memory and caused the handle. She usually is a solid marking dog. 
On water blinds I'm just a little freaked that we are heading into cold weather and our big blind water training days will have to wait until spring. We still have to get solid on initial lines and get a few pictures to get down loaded into her big brain before we step up and run the next level. We did train today and she had a beautiful initial line down a hill, into flooded grass and carried the line though the flood grass and into the pond. After that we had a bit of a struggle, but I did get a wonderful initial line. Aarrgg, water blinds, we have pieces of them, seem to have a grip on a different piece on any given day and we're working to put it all together. 
I can remember when I thought it would be amazing to teach her to handle, turns out it is amazing.


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## Tatnall

hollyk said:


> My other bad habit is turning her off a mark too fast. In fact, on the set up above I did turn her off too fast on the first mark down. I have to wonder if it effect her memory and caused the handle. She usually is a solid marking dog.


Don't do that!  In fact, if anything turn too slowly since things speed up at the line. Especially with the hard birds and memory birds you want the dog to keep looking after it hits the ground. The judges will go from that point, pause and then call for the next mark. It is very important to get that cadence down and count in your head. But it is often easier said than done. In an am last weekend, the judges were going on a slow cadence--a 4 count between the last bird hitting the ground and calling for the next bird. All but the very best handlers turned to the next bird too quickly. Whether marks or blinds, your job at the line is to do everything possible to help your dog do its job. Remember, though, that marking is primary, so pay particular attention to getting the first look on the tough bird and making sure the dog sees all the birds fall and you don't pull off. It is not hard. It just takes line time.


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## hollyk

Tatnall said:


> Don't do that!  In fact, if anything turn too slowly since things speed up at the line. Especially with the hard birds and memory birds you want the dog to keep looking after it hits the ground. The judges will go from that point, pause and then call for the next mark. It is very important to get that cadence down and count in your head. But it is often easier said than done. In an am last weekend, the judges were going on a slow cadence--a 4 count between the last bird hitting the ground and calling for the next bird. All but the very best handlers turned to the next bird too quickly. Whether marks or blinds, your job at the line is to do everything possible to help your dog do its job. Remember, though, that marking is primary, so pay particular attention to getting the first look on the tough bird and making sure the dog sees all the birds fall and you don't pull off. It is not hard. It just takes line time.


I keep thinking that I need to tape a list to the top of her crate so when I get her out I can refresh my memory on what it is I'm supposed to be doing.

-take your time to call for the birds
-do not turn off marks until you have at least counted to three
-talk to her at the line after the judges release us, especially on 2 and 3rd marks
-slow the blind down
-think about the wind
-have fun


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## EvanG

The better solution is to keep a training journal.

EvanG


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## hollyk

I do keep a training journal, it's trying to remember it all when we're on the line.


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## gdgli

hollyk said:


> I keep thinking that I need to tape a list to the top of her crate so when I get her out I can refresh my memory on what it is I'm supposed to be doing.
> 
> -take your time to call for the birds
> -do not turn off marks until you have at least counted to three
> -talk to her at the line after the judges release us, especially on 2 and 3rd marks
> -slow the blind down
> -think about the wind
> -have fun


The list---Why not? I use one.


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## gdgli

EvanG said:


> The better solution is to keep a training journal.
> 
> EvanG


Truth is my training journal is what I use.


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## hollyk

Funny training day story. 
The group that day was 4 dogs solidly running Master marks, all of them good markers. We had set up hand throwing technical singles. All the dogs did OK but not one nailed all of the marks, usually someone does. 
Last dog to run is a 10 month old Golden girl. We asked if we should throw easier marks. The answer was "no throw the same ones". This puppy STEPPED on every single one! It was so much fun to watch. I can't wait to watch her grow up.


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## Claudia M

my Bozo is starting to mess on her doubles. Goes after the first instead of the last thrown. Back to square one on doubles and triples. After two screw ups today she did a more simple one. 
I noticed that both last throws were in the cover and the first throws were more visible. She looked like she locked on the last throw but then deviated to the easy ones. 

Wondering what is going on in that little pea brain, she picked up on the doubles and triples so easily.


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## PalouseDogs

Here in eastern Washington, we've had the most gorgeous stretch of October weather I can remember. The normal fall drizzle, cold, and wind is moving in tonight.

Yesterday, I was able to meet with a friend to work on marks on one of these last great October days. The friend, Claire, has a young lab. 

We started with Maple. Since I had a training partner, I wanted to do a double with a long memory bird, with Claire at the memory bird winger ready to help Maple if she needed it. Go bird was a pheasant from a winger at about 60 yards at 9 o'clock. Memory bird was a duck from a winger at about 200 yards at 12 o'clock. Cover was a short-cut, flat hay field. Only factor was wind perpendicular to the path to the memory. Claire was in white field handler's jacket and I tied white flagging to the duck's legs. 

Maple found the memory bird easily with no help from Claire, but she drifted with the wind about 20 yards off a direct line to the memory. She winded the bird as she passed it. I need to read up on exercises to reduce drifting with the wind, but am open to suggestions right now. 

I put Maple up for a rest and Claire got her dog. Her lab has been doing retrieves mostly at the distance Claire can throw. Claire wanted to work on stretching her out, but not too fast. I threw bumpers, gradually increasing distance to about 50 or 60 yards. Her dog did great. That dog has a ton of drive. We put her up before she got tired of the game.

I took Maple out and did a ladder drill in intervals out to about 100 yards and back. There was only minor drifting at those distances. After about 7 retrieves, I put Maple up

We went back to Claire's lab, who was still fired up and wanting more. We only did a few more throws, including one at about 70 yards that she had trouble with, so we shortened for the last one to end on success. 

I took Maple out one last time for a single duck at 150 yards, again with a cross wind. No drifting on this one. 

Maple was really happy to be doing marks instead of blind work and to be picking up birds instead of bumpers for a change. She's not that crazy about bumpers.

Happy training.


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## hotel4dogs

Sometimes the multiple venues do set us back a bit. Tito had/has 6 agility trials in a span of 10 days, and since he's just coming off injury, I don't want to do too much else with him. I *thought* I might *imagine* a slight limp yesterday afternoon after all the jumping all weekend, but I don't see it today so I probably did imagine it. On the plus side, he only had 3 entries this past weekend and got 2 nice passes and 1 silly boy fail.
Then that's it for agility trials until mid-January, so if we have some decent weather we can TRY to get some field training in. Going to Dan's on Thursday is in jeopardy, as it's supposed to pour all day but we will see.


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## Claudia M

today I went home early (7pm) and did 3 doubles in semi to almost dark. I swear this Bozo 16 month dog does better in the dark (maybe she concentrates more to see and remember the throws in the dark) but she nailed them all. The very last one was LOOOOONG and hard and even darker outside.


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## Claudia M

Moved post to November!!!


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