# Waffling ...



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Okay, I am waffling. I had a private session with one of my obedience coachs today and she again pointed out that Faelan has OTCH potential. Okay, Faelan also does agility and field and I KNOW he can be a great obedience dog - he has style, he has flash and he just so loves training. But,

I previously had an OTCH potential dog (avg in Open B of 198 1/2) but was competing in a time and place where that did not even put him in the ribbons most trials - and some of the competitors thought attempting to put him off his game was amusing. I worked very hard and loved my boyo tremendously, but the stress of never being quite good enough soured me a bit to the game. I also had issue with some of the 'corrections' that I would see from time to time and thought I might need to go that route to push my King to the 199-199 1/2 level - that was not going to happen which is why he was retired,

So, I again have a bright star and on one hand I want the world, on the other hand I need Falean to stay a bright happy dog. So, for those of you who compete with a goal for OTCH or that have already earned an OTCH, can you share some of the games you play to keep it fun and light? Is the ring experience good for a young dog even if he might not be 195 + ready? Do you wait until you can be sure of better scores? Do you regret (as I do) waiting too long for that ring readiness and have to retire a dog before he finishes the titles you wanted?

For those of you that compete in multiple venues, how is the division of time best played? I spend a lot of time on field work, and split the remainder of my available time between obedience and agility.

I am a competitive person by nature and I have deliberately toned that down for my dog activities, but frankly I also don't like _not_ being in the ribbons - so perhaps it is time I kicked my dreams up a notch, See - I am waffling  Faelan's 2nd leg was not in the ribbons while his 1st CD leg was a 1st place.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I am once again sitting in a parking lot using to get internet access and my battery is about to go out so I only have a minute to type, but I will say that I think there is an important balance for when to put your dog in the ring. If you put them in way before they are ready, I think the dog is in danger of picking up many bad habits. On the other hand, if you wait forever and ever until you think the dog is absolutely perfect then it can be so stressful going into the ring and getting less than perfection.

Of course I don't have an OTCH but I'm interested in the conversation so I'll rejoin tomorrow when my battery has been recharged


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Are you referring to putting him in he ring for the last leg of his CD or for the upper levels? I realize that many of the novice skills transfer to open and utility but I think I would use the ring time until you start competing for the points to make sure its a great time for Faelan.

In general, do what makes the two of you happy. If obedience is too stressful for you, I am sure Faelan has just as much fun in agility or the field work. He doesn't care if he earns an OTCH or not.

Of course, I do not have an OTCH and although I intend to get a UD with Selli, we will see how she enjoys it to see if we will go further, so take that into consideration when you read my post.


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

I am not even close to having an OTCH but wanted to chime in. I am currently showing my novice A dog in utility. I have an up and coming youngster who will be a high scoring dog but OTCH, highly unlikely, and only partly because he doesn't have the potential and I am a new handler.
I train with a club with several OTCH handlers and my best friend and training partner has trained at least 30 dogs in obedience of all breeds, mostly rescues. We train and show because we love the sport. For most of the OTCH handlers in our area it is more like a job. 
For those with up and coming OTCH potential dogs...well frankly, they show mostly out of state to get their placements. It is nearly impossible to break the curtain of the regular "200" club even if the "regulars" have an "off" day because their reputation has a tendency to influence the judges.
An excellent new handler with a fabulous dog (not a golden or border collie) was not treated with much welcome because of the "threat" to their status. She showed all over the country and had several 200s and an OTCH in both AKC and UKC before her dog was 2 years old but she did it by NOT showing locally. It was really a shame because she was incredible to watch.
That being said...I love this sport and my current new upstart will be stellar. If I had a promising OTCH caliber dog I would work toward that goal but in the manner that I am comfortable training. I am not an agility enthusiast so I don't have that as an alternative. 
As a novice A handler, who has trained 1 dog to utility and a rescue with bad hips through novice, I have been treated well by the obedience community and enjoy the spirit of friendly competition. It is a much different story with the regulars who compete every weekend searching for that elusive OTCH point.

ASCA CD, UCD Baylee Golden Butterfly Wings CDX, RN


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

You bring up some of the very things I worry about. The influence factor, both for the scores of the other dogs and how an up and coming youngster is perceived .. if you show a dog for the experience before his scores will be high, is that helpful or perhaps damaging?

Many of the handlers when I was competing with King did look like it was a job and they would miss their payday if they didn't win - and I am again hearing things like someone kicking a dog in a ring. 

But I am also seeing tapes of teams in addition to watching teams that appear to be having a blast together while they earn those high scores. This is very exciting to me.

I really appreciate all the responses so far and would love to hear more .. and I did not mean to exclude those who don't feel they will not be getting an OTCH on their current dog - since this was my attitude with my Rowdy and Casey, although they were/are very good working dogs.




BayBeams said:


> I am not even close to having an OTCH but wanted to chime in. I am currently showing my novice A dog in utility. I have an up and coming youngster who will be a high scoring dog but OTCH, highly unlikely, and only partly because he doesn't have the potential and I am a new handler.
> I train with a club with several OTCH handlers and my best friend and training partner has trained at least 30 dogs in obedience of all breeds, mostly rescues. We train and show because we love the sport. For most of the OTCH handlers in our area it is more like a job.
> For those with up and coming OTCH potential dogs...well frankly, they show mostly out of state to get their placements. It is nearly impossible to break the curtain of the regular "200" club even if the "regulars" have an "off" day because their reputation has a tendency to influence the judges.
> An excellent new handler with a fabulous dog (not a golden or border collie) was not treated with much welcome because of the "threat" to their status. She showed all over the country and had several 200s and an OTCH in both AKC and UKC before her dog was 2 years old but she did it by NOT showing locally. It was really a shame because she was incredible to watch.
> ...


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Totally off topic, but if a handler abuses a dog in the ring during competition won't they be disqualified?


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

mylissyk said:


> Totally off topic, but if a handler abuses a dog in the ring during competition won't they be disqualified?


Yes, if the judge sees it and it happens in the ring.

If it happens on show grounds, it can be reported by witnesses and an investigation may occur.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Just adding that I've enjoyed this post. All summer I made waffles on training day and then took the extras for training treats. Maybe that's our problem.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Sunrise, I am curious if making your breeder pleased and proud has any part of it? It feels so good to do well with a wonderful dog who has been entrusted to you. I am very interested in this thread as well, and will be attentively listening! I'm glad you asked these questions, bc I am struggling with them too.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I think you need to concentrate on Towhee


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Seriously, people often ask my what my goals are for Tito in the various dog sports. 
My goals are to take him as high as he can go, as long as we are both still enjoying it. 
We both are burning out on obedience for a variety of reasons. After the UDX, we're done. 
We quit conformation after he got his CH. I didn't see any reason to spend the money/time getting the GR CH when there are so many other things we enjoy much, much more.
How far will we go in field? Depends on how long he continues to live and breathe for it.....
But my point really is that there's no reason to make a decision now whether or not to pursue an OTCH, a CDX, or any other title. All you need to do is decide from training session to training session whether or not you and the dog are still enjoying it (and can afford it). If the answer is yes, then you keep going. If the answer is no, then you stop. 
As far as how the time is divided, it really depends on the weather. We're coming to the end of field season here, already can't do water work, so we'll be heading back into agility then!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> Sunrise, I am curious if making your breeder pleased and proud has any part of it? It feels so good to do well with a wonderful dog who has been entrusted to you. I am very interested in this thread as well, and will be attentively listening! I'm glad you asked these questions, bc I am struggling with them too.


Yes, I have been entrusted with some really wonderful dogs, and making the 2 younger dogs breeders proud has a LOT to do with it. Neither Lisa nor Barb have really mentioned MACH or OTCH status, although Faelan's breeder would love UD, hunting titles etc.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> I think you need to concentrate on Towhee


Grins - well little Missy, Faelan and I just got back from our agility private and the little Missy was running through those poles - seems I've been babysitting both dogs again.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

On when to enter a dog, most of the OTCH trainers do seem to be waiting until their dogs are fairly well trained through utility and are around at least 3 or 4 years old.

On the other hand, I was talking to Pat Gannon, Dave Gannon's wife, and she said he'd probably be putting Tate (his one year old) in novice soon. Dave still trains for novice, gets the title, then trains for open, gets that title, then trains for utility, and gets that title. She said Boss's novice career was really rough. But they both view novice as something to just get through so they can focus on the "fun" classes.

So obviously either method can be successful.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I will say I have seen many trainers become discouraged when they make the OTCH their primary goal. I did it to myself with Conner. I spent about a year chasing after OTCH points with him. And it made it really hard to find the good things about a run because all I could think about was the little 1/2 point mistakes that we'd get hit for. I remember last year coming out of an open run and the only thought on my mind were those two crooked fronts he had given me. I forgot to look at how great the rest of that run was because I was focused on the two areas that weren't "perfect." And we scored a 199. I think that was the day that turned my view around, I realized that if my dog is giving me 199 effort, I need to be coming out of the ring thrilled with his performance, not concentrating solely on where we went wrong.

So my new goal with Conner is to get the best effort out of him that I can each time we go into the ring. We still enjoy picking up the occasional points, but it isn't the main focus anymore of why we are showing.

Now the hard part for me will be keeping that philosophy with Flip. I've stated before that I want to go to the Invitationals with him, and when you have a Golden Retriever that kind of implies getting an OTCH. But I hope I am able to keep "getting his best effort" every time as my main priority and focus instead of "how many points can we get today."


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Jodie, I have heard Bridget Carlson say that when you come out of the ring, you need to immediately think of the 3 BEST things your dog did that day, and dwell on them before moving on to think about the things you weren't pleased with.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> I will say I have seen many trainers become discouraged when they make the OTCH their primary goal. I did it to myself with Conner. I spent about a year chasing after OTCH points with him. And it made it really hard to find the good things about a run because all I could think about was the little 1/2 point mistakes that we'd get hit for. I remember last year coming out of an open run and the only thought on my mind were those two crooked fronts he had given me. I forgot to look at how great the rest of that run was because I was focused on the two areas that weren't "perfect." And we scored a 199. I think that was the day that turned my view around, I realized that if my dog is giving me 199 effort, I need to be coming out of the ring thrilled with his performance, not concentrating solely on where we went wrong.
> 
> So my new goal with Conner is to get the best effort out of him that I can each time we go into the ring. We still enjoy picking up the occasional points, but it isn't the main focus anymore of why we are showing.
> 
> Now the hard part for me will be keeping that philosophy with Flip. I've stated before that I want to go to the Invitationals with him, and when you have a Golden Retriever that kind of implies getting an OTCH. But I hope I am able to keep "getting his best effort" every time as my main priority and focus instead of "how many points can we get today."


Yes, I found myself paying more attention to that slightly crooked front & finish than to the perfect 198 other points - so best efforts - I like that - hopefully I can do this. But I also need to ramp up my training so they are straight fronts - my bad, I actually find fronts & finishes boring and if I don't much like them, how can my dog?LOL


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Jodie, I have heard Bridget Carlson say that when you come out of the ring, you need to immediately think of the 3 BEST things your dog did that day, and dwell on them before moving on to think about the things you weren't pleased with.


Oh, I like this!


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Sunrise said:


> Y
> _
> "Many of the handlers when I was competing with King did look like it was a job and they would miss their payday if they didn't win - and I am again hearing things like someone kicking a dog in a ring.
> But I am also seeing tapes of teams in addition to watching teams that appear to be having a blast together while they earn those high scores. This is very exciting to me."_
> ...


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Titan1 said:


> Sunrise said:
> 
> 
> > Y
> ...


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Sunrise said:


> Titan1 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks and yes - I guess I need to wrap my head around being the best team we can be, while keeping it light and fun. I do sometimes dream about 200s but then I'm like, but what happens next if I am going for the score and not the joy of being with my dog (Faelan or Towhee or Casey etc).
> ...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

The worst dog show experience of my life was the one where I went in there wanting to win. I was DETERMINED I was going to win the Lhasa Apso National. I was a nervous wreck. I had to take a xanax before I went in the ring. And yes, we did win, but totally not worth it.

The more I can put into effect the philosophy of enjoying our time in the ring and just giving the best effort we can, the more I enjoy showing. Because then I can be truly happy when my dog has a happy run where he tried really hard for me, instead of being disappointed that we missed the placements.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> The worst dog show experience of my life was the one where I went in there wanting to win. I was DETERMINED I was going to win the Lhasa Apso National. I was a nervous wreck. I had to take a xanax before I went in the ring. And yes, we did win, but totally not worth it.
> 
> The more I can put into effect the philosophy of enjoying our time in the ring and just giving the best effort we can, the more I enjoy showing. Because then I can be truly happy when my dog has a happy run where he tried really hard for me, instead of being disappointed that we missed the placements.


The worst for me was the weekend we got our OTCH believe it or not. We needed 3 points and it was a three day show. I finally managed to not screw up the very last class on he very last day. I decided then and there I would not put myself through that again


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Titan1 said:


> The worst for me was the weekend we got our OTCH believe it or not. We needed 3 points and it was a three day show. I finally managed to not screw up the very last class on he very last day. I decided then and there I would not put myself through that again


 
I believe it. I think no matter what we tell ourselves, when you're that close it's close to impossible not to turn into a nervous wreck.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I also wonder what the effect on the dog is when we're really hard on ourselves for messing up. You can do a really, really good job of never taking it out on the dog and yet the dog will pick up on your stress, disappointment, and anger at yourself.

Comet and Faelan are really similar in their deep attunement to people's emotions (and why wouldn't they be similar, as brothers?). If I'm having an awful day, and I come home all wound up, I don't have to say anything or show it outwardly. Comet picks up sad, anxious, confused emotions. I cannot prevent him from doing this, no matter how normal I try to pretend to be.

I think all dogs are generally in tune with their handlers in this way, and I think Goldens are particularly tuneful. Comet is even more sensitive to it than the other Goldens I've had, so I think the potential for him to pick up stress and anxiety is even higher than average. I want to be clear to people reading this who don't know Comet that he's not an anxious or oversensitive dog. Quite the opposite really; he's a really durable dog when it comes to stress or scary situations. It's just that his antenna for human emotions is really, really powerful and he picks them up before you say a word.

So I wonder if you're the kind of handler who's really hard on yourself and feels a significant amount of disappointment and anger at yourself when you screw up, is that going to end up being harder on the dog?

That's not a reason not to compete really, just something to think about. It's one of the things that is on my mind as Comet and I get more serious about obedience and agility. If I'm overcompetitive and get all wound up at myself, Comet's going to pick it up and be unhappy too, even if I try to hide it. So I need to make an adjustment to my approach to competition and be laid back about success and failure.

I don't know how much of that translates to you, but it's something I think about.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

You are so right. It is me, I stress and then he can stress.

As Faelan is a brother to Comet, they do share that sensitivity to their person's moods - Faelan is sensitive to complete strangers as well, but truly sensitive to my moods. So I need to change my attitude - it cannot be that I need to be in the ribbons, nor can it be that I don't train to the point where we can be our very best.

I need to learn to train to be our very best, relax enough to allow Faelan to shine, and let the scores fall where they will. Ha! easier said than done though, I fear.

I also feel the need to point out to anyone reading this who does not know our dogs, that while Faelan and Comet are very sensitive to our emotional states, their strength and endurance are pretty awesome. They learn easily, sport great looks and are incredibly athletic, but are very much in tune with their people; not at all a negative quality in my book. 

So, Tippykayak, are you and Jax also becoming more serious about Obedience and Agility?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Sunrise said:


> You are so right. It is me, I stress and then he can stress.
> 
> As Faelan is a brother to Comet, they do share that sensitivity to their person's moods - Faelan is sensitive to complete strangers as well, but truly sensitive to my moods. So I need to change my attitude - it cannot be that I need to be in the ribbons, nor can it be that I don't train to the point where we can be our very best.
> 
> ...


I know how hard you are on yourself, so I wonder how much Faelan would respond to that. You're such a gentle, positive trainer with him, and he loves to work SO MUCH, but if you're down on yourself competing, I bet he would learn to be down too.

I think I really should do more agility with both boys. They just love the jumping, the climbing, and the tunnels so much. I need to stop making excuses for not signing up for a regular beginner agility class. I don't need to compete, (I have a bad competitive streak), but if I can just have fun, maybe we can do some real shows and not worry about how it goes.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

mmmmmmmm ... waffles ..... I don't think I'm qualified to answer anything about an OTCH, but I do have an opinion about balancing Faelan's activities. Because I love him 

Life is so short ... especially dog life.


Sometimes I feel sad when I go to a dogshow; in the middle of spring or summer; when I see dogs standing on tables getting their hair dried - especially poodles and retrievers. I think to myself: "sporting dogs are supposed to be out running! swimming! rolling in the mud! chasing squirrels! collecting burrs! They aren't supposed to be indoors tethered to a table with curlers in their hair!"

Sometimes when I've been at a dog show on a nice day in the spring or summer, watching the exercises, I feel similarly about obedience. I think dogs shouldn't be inside picking white gloves up off the floor on a nice sunny day.

On the other hand, you've SEEN how Boomer LOVES the Rally course! That's fun! That's what life is all about (to me, anyway). Do you think some dogs love the games and puzzles, the teamwork, the ring, the competition?

Do you think Faelan would like to do it? Can you ask him? Maybe ask him how he wants to prioritize agility, field and obedience?

Disclaimer: I'm sure the people that actually go out and get OTCHs don't ask the dog what he wants to do, they TELL the dog what to do. That's why they have OTCHs and I don't .. so you should probably take my uneducated opinion w/ a grain of salt. 

If your obedience coach says Faelan has OTCH potential, she must see something in him that indicates he would want to do it. If he didn't want to do it, he would be a dud, right? And I'm not 100% sure but I think their breeders would prefer happy and healthy over OTCH.

And the last thing I want to say is don't be so hard on yourself ... Boomer and Gladys sez: we luvs u Aunty! U R a grat dog treet cuk!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Seriously, people often ask my what my goals are for Tito in the various dog sports.
> My goals are to take him as high as he can go, as long as we are both still enjoying it.
> We both are burning out on obedience for a variety of reasons. After the UDX, we're done.
> We quit conformation after he got his CH. I didn't see any reason to spend the money/time getting the GR CH when there are so many other things we enjoy much, much more.
> ...


Great post--this is how I approach things as well. I want to do the best we can, but I don't want to go at it like we have to get XXX or we won't be happy if we don't get there. And I don't want to go any farther if my dog is unhappy, because then it's losing the point. This is supposed to be fun!

I love being on this forum though, because it does inspire me and cause me to push harder in my training (and be patient). I don't want to short change, so we train our best, play our best and will go from there.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

So I am novice but I will share my thoughts on pacing since I am doing multiple things with Scout--

I intend on taking each thing and giving it a timeline. Right now we train for obedience and field. In the future I want to add agility, but maybe not until after we're more grounded in the others. So, train for different things at different life stages. Part of me thinks when she is old we might even take up tracking if we've had a good ride with the other things I want to do: field, obedience, agility, conformation.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

GoldenSail said:


> Great post--this is how I approach things as well. I want to do the best we can, but I don't want to go at it like we have to get XXX or we won't be happy if we don't get there. _And I don't want to go any farther if my dog is unhappy, because then it's losing the point._ This is supposed to be fun!
> 
> I love being on this forum though, because it does inspire me and cause me to push harder in my training (and be patient). I don't want to short change, so we train our best, play our best and will go from there.


This is what I was trying to get to earlier. If you are truly focused on your time with the dog... the only one who knows you lost a point is you.. so if your dog is unhappy you need to look at your reaction..everything travels down the leash..
Someone else wanted to know if we asked the dogs what they would want to do.. Titan wants to do anything and everything..He is the 1st one at the door when we are ready to go anywhere. He will run through the house "telling" everyone he is going..


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

Titan1 said:


> Someone else wanted to know if we asked the dogs what they would want to do.. Titan wants to do anything and everything..He is the 1st one at the door when we are ready to go anywhere. He will run through the house "telling" everyone he is going..


Aww. cute imagery, I can just imagine Titan, "I'm going now! Me! Me! Me! Pick me!".

That was me wondering what the dogs want to do. I'm glad to hear other dogs like obedience and want to be in on everything too. Mine likes RallyO. One time I set up a course and walked through it to make sure the signs were set at appropriate distances. He saw me walking the course without him, ran over and started heeling next to me. He was saying "hey don't leave without me!"

He doesn't like swimming across a pond though; he would rather run around it. Then I have to think about how much do I want to make him?
It's a moot point now because he's retired from field work. He can just do what he wants.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

boomers_dawn said:


> Sometimes I feel sad when I go to a dogshow; in the middle of spring or summer; when I see dogs standing on tables getting their hair dried - especially poodles and retrievers. I think to myself: "sporting dogs are supposed to be out running! swimming! rolling in the mud! chasing squirrels! collecting burrs! They aren't supposed to be indoors tethered to a table with curlers in their hair!"
> 
> Sometimes when I've been at a dog show on a nice day in the spring or summer, watching the exercises, I feel similarly about obedience. I think dogs shouldn't be inside picking white gloves up off the floor on a nice sunny day.


I have got the answer to this one! During the time between runs in the ring, you take your dog out for a real run! O.K., so it would not work for the breed ring although I did try it one rainy day, the handler was upset and it was our only day to try the breed ring. Selli and I always find a fun place to run on our competition days, which is one reason I don't do shows in large cities. So not only does she get to compete, which she enjoys, but she gets to enjoy new places, which she LOVES.

In every performance there is something that both you and your dog has done really well. When we leave the ring, I try to focus on that and be really happy about it. I think the agility attitude of "any mistakes are the handlers fault" is helpful, at least for me. I know that I have not ben perfect on the run so I can't expect Selli to be either, but we both did our best!


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