# Daisy - the other ACL



## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

OH NO...JO!! That is NOT good...poor Daisy...Maddie sends her wags and giggles!!


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## RileyStar (Mar 24, 2008)

Wow the poor baby! I have been fortunate enough to not have to go thru this with any of my dogs. But I'm sure there is people here who have and we're all here to support you. I really respect that you are doing the most you can to help her get thru this. Spoil her for me 

A nice treat and I've heard it helps their joints is cooked lamb. I buy "lamb bones" for real cheap at my local market and boil them for about 45 mins and after they're cooked I peel all the meat (make sure minus bones) and ligaments off and grind it up and my pups and cats LOVE it! 

I know it might be hard to talk about so don't feel like you need to answer but how did you know something was wrong? Did you post about it because I can read it there. Did you pup walk funny or did the vet tell you? Was it trauma related? Just wondering how you know something like that is wrong. 

My family and I are sending our prayers your way and we will pray for a speedy recovery for Daisy! :wavey:


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## Lady Di (Feb 22, 2008)

Oh Jo Ellen, I'm so sorry to hear this. I was hoping and praying this wouldn't happen. How soon are you going to do this?


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## Jazz & Jules (Feb 25, 2007)

Much Love Jo Ellen!!!!! We are all here for you!!!!!!

Gentle hugs and smoochies to Daisy!


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## Coffee'sDad (Mar 10, 2008)

Oh no! We're pulling for you and Daisy.

Best...
dg


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Jasmine has had two FHOs (her hips) and she partially tore her ACL last summer. We took her to two vets for consults. Both suggested surgery, but they suggested two different surgeries. Weird thing is, her knee has gotten much better recently and she almost never limps after our walks anymore. The vet says that the FHOs have actually been her saving grace.

I am so sorry! Daisy and Jasmine are about the same age and love the same activities. I was sick when I thought that she was going to have to stay home from the lake all summer long. So I know exactly what you are going through.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Thank you everyone. It helps to have people here that care, and I know you do! Thank you so much.

Lady Di, the vet said to bring her in first thing in the morning and not to give her anything to eat tonight, or tomorrow morning. I thought that was strange, not to give her anything to eat but then I checked the calendar for the day he did this surgery on her left ACL last January and it was a Wednesday. Tomorrow is Wednesday  I'm not certain but I think he wants to have her ready for surgery if that is what she needs after he examines her. If it has to be done, it needs to be done as soon as possible. 

RileyStar, Daisy was outside romping with the kids next door. The mom came to tell me that Daisy was crying and laying down, not walking on her back leg, and I knew immediately what was wrong. I just did. I've been through it with her before. I know the signs. They yelp, go down, and then don't bear any weight on the leg that's injured. And it's not uncommon for ACL injuries to come in pairs. Once one ACL is injured, they compensate by using the other leg more and then the added strain causes the other ACL to rupture also. I'm told it's like a 40% reoccurrence rate, and usually within 2 years. It's been 1-1/2 years.


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## Swanolck (Jan 17, 2007)

Oh Jo, I'm sorry to hear this about your Daisy. Sending positive thoughts and healing prayers for your girl.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

I'm sorry JE. I know it happens frequently tho.

Have you considered just resting her for a while to see how it goes? Two of our Newf owners (on the Newf forum) have had good results without surgery. And one human is going through the same thing. Her Ortho doc said to try to heal it without surgery and if it doesn't work.......then do the surgery. (She already had surgery on the other knee).

Hopefully Daisy's doc will suggest rest for a while just to see. Maybe she'll get better. If not......I know she'll do just fine, and then will be as good as new forever.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Fostermom, what will happen if we opt not to do the surgery and just let her knee heal as best it can on its own? Does anyone ever do that??

Will she start to walk on her leg again after a few weeks and then we'll just need to think about the arthritis from the bones rubbing together? Will it eventually cripple her if she doesn't have surgery? 

What to do 

The thought of losing a whole summer with a dog that's already not young is just almost too much to bear, to be honest. I'm really sick about this.


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## gold'nchocolate (May 31, 2005)

Oh, poor Daisy!!! When Hershey had her surgery a few years back she didn't have to have crate rest. She had to remain quiet but she hardly moved at first and then she moved really slowly. I had to leash walk her short distances and there weren't any long walks for 12 weeks but what is the reason for the crate rest, do you know?


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Crate to keep her from jumping up on the furniture while I'm at work during the day. She actually loved the crate that the vet let us use for her first surgery. She would go in there long after the crate was necessary.


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## 3459 (Dec 27, 2007)

I'm so sorry, Jo Ellen, that Daisy is having such a rough time. Good thoughts, prayers and hugs coming to you and Daisy. I'm glad there is such a wealth of experience on the Forum, and hope you will feel all the support.


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

I am so sorry to hear this. I don't have any experience with this but just wanted you to know how sorry I am.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Hi Jo Ellen

Thanks for letting me know about this. I do remember her last surgery well and know how stressful that was on you. I know you...have for a long time so I do know this is tearing you up inside. I know that Daisy is the love of your life. She is so lucky to have you.

I am thinking about you both and will check in with you for updates.

I love those pics of her...what a comfy looking nook she had there!

Talk soon
Vic and Buddy


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

Oh no, I hope she doesn't have to miss fishing time since this winter has already been such a long "two weeks". I know whatever you decide to do will be whats best for Daisy. Sorry I know nothing of the ACL stuff to provide advice but I do think she looks very pretty sprawled out in crate! Ear scratchings for daisy


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Two weeks LOL .... all winter long I tell her two more weeks and we can go fishing again. Now it's finally warm enough, we're just waiting for the trout crowd to clear out, and this happens. We live for summer and fishing. 

Right now I'm leaning towards waiting a month to see what her knee does. If she starts to walk on it again, maybe we can opt to not do surgery and just let it be what it is. If she does need surgery, waiting a month won't hurt. 

Maybe we can still fish this summer


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I am so sorry JoEllen. Hopefully the doctor can first prescribe bed rest for her and see if it heals on its own and then if not the surgery. I hate that she might go straight to surgery tomorrow. We will keep our fingers and paws crossed here that everything is ok.
We need to see her fishing this summer and not in the baby pool with goldfish. Sending kisses from the boys.


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## lammer29 (Feb 21, 2008)

so sorry to hear about this! As you know my lab mix had her ACL surgery in November. I hold my breath alot when she gets too rambuncious. Isn't there the fear of arthritis if you don't have the surgery asap? Is she on any thing now for her joints? I give mine GlycoFlex II, and there are some newer ones out there that are supposed to be good. They have helped Zoey, when she overdoes it and limps a bit, I increase for a couple of weeks.She didn't have to be crated, but we have restricted her alot. We had to leash potty only, no walks for a while, building up to just about now to go back to "normal". I still have not had her really run like she did when she fell and tore it to begin with. She is not high energy, so she doesn't really care, she's rather be a couch potato, a walk a day is fine with her, thank goodness> i don't know what I'd do if she were high maintenance in that department! One word of warning: OUr vet gave her Metacam (doggie ibuprofen) until we could get to the surgeon and it also killed her! Literally. I know that not all dogs get that reaction, but I would beware of it if you can!The pain meds she got along with the fentanyl patch had her pretty out of it after surgery, so it was a struggle to get her to move, which gave her the rest she needed. I'll have to look up the pain med name if you want to know.My best thoughts are with you and Daisy. Let us know what happens tomm.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

JO..Im sorry to hear that you and Daisy are going through this again..... I hope she has a easy time recovering...


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

JoEllen I'm so sorry!!!! I know you've worried about her knees all along. I sincerely hope the vet says it's not the ACL and rest will be the treatment.


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

Aww man - the other one too? Gosh - all I can say is keep her SKINNY - less weight on the back end, less stress and strain. So sorry you both have to go through this again.

(Looks like it's going to be goldfish in the kiddie pool again this summer!) :

(I so want to do that for Griff but my youngest son would be heartbroken I'm sure.)


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## Jenny Wren (Feb 27, 2007)

Hi JoEllen...Sorry to hear about Daisy's knee. Taya had the same thing happen. Knee one, followed by knee two almost two years later. I was heartbroken to begin with but Taya is now 9 and she runs and runs! She really is fine!
And...the second time around, I was so much better prepared that her reocuperation was a lot better. The vet also started us immediately on passive physical therapy exercises that I did with her... that seemed to help.
I certainly have heard of waiting...you can, but if you do go for it, you and she should be fine. Look at how experienced you both are now.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

So sorry for you and Daisy, hope you get good news tomorrow.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Oh Jo, I am so, so sorry. Please let us know what the vet says in the am. Of course, I'll be hoping that she can get by with some restricted rest and perhaps some pain meds. We are going thru that right now with Cody for his shoulder. It's so hard to see them hurting and immobile, but thank goodness you have access to quality vet care that can handle it. We'll be saying some prayers and lighting a candle for both Daisy and you.


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## Merlins mom (Jun 20, 2007)

I am so sorry to hear about Daisy!   Our dog Rocky had an ACL rupture when he was about 12. He didn't have the surgery as our vet felt like it would be too much for him. We kept him quiet for a few weeks and started him on glucosomine and chondroitin (sp?) and within 5 weeks he was walking fine and the clicking stopped. He lived for another two years and when we had to put him to sleep it was not related to the injury.

I'm sure your vet will help you decide the best course of treament for Daisy. Sending good thoughts to you. Let us know how the visit to the vet goes.


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

Oh my God not again Jo!!!!! Poor Daisy and poor mom. I hope and pray this one goes smoother because of your experience. Well you know what I mean,  I know this was your biggest fear.

The pain med Lammer was talking about was Tramadol 50mg 3xd, and the Fentanyl patch changed every 72 hours. Torugesic 10 mg injections tended to knock Hailey out after her surgery, but that was what she needed was to be still. 

I did find out the hard way that dogs can sleep standing up with the right meds!!!! It would have been funny if is wasnt so sad and scary. 

If there is anything I can do please just holler. I feel like an expert on this now with Daisy and Zoey. 

Nancy


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Oh no Daisy  I have zero experience with torn ACL's but I wish miss Daisy the best tomorrow at the vet. Please keep us updated ok? We want to see Daisy fishing this summer!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Last night she was at least toe tapping, very slightly. This morning her leg just hangs. I slept downstairs with her last night, she slept in her favorite corner but backwards ... she couldn't maneuver herself around to her favorite position. Cry me a river.

Jenny, you and me have the same ACL experience then. What type of surgery did Taya have? Was it the extra-articular stabilization where they put in a suture outside the knee joint? Or did you do the kind ... what is it, the TPLO. where they change the geometry of the leg? Daisy has the outside suture kind. The vet looked at her fixed knee just last weekend and said it was stable. I hope it's strong enough to carry her through this next chapter.

Thank you so much everyone. I appreciate all of you :heartbeat


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Sorry to hear about Daisy, unfortunately it is common if they have damage on one side the other side follows usually after having to bear the strain of the first rehab. 

My Maxine had her first surgery (TPLO), May of 2005 then in Oct 2006 she had her second TPLO done. I want you to know Maxine who is now 11 runs around like a chicken with her head cut off. She chases our young golden and has a wonderful time. Prior to her surgery, we suspected she had some arthritis in her hips she would be sore from time to time but nothing horrible. She has not been sore once since her second surgery and has not had one anti inflammatory since what the prescribed immediately post op. So good news is if all goes well post op Daisy should be fine! 

I do know how hard it is going through this. It did seem to take just a touch longer to "get better" on the second side than it did the first. Our vet said this is normal. When they have surgery one, they still have a "good" leg in the mind of the dog. After surgery two they are protective on both sides. But as I said Max is up and running around. Talk to your vet, if Daisy likes to swim that is excellent exercise for knees. Max was cleared to swim before she was cleared to walk.

Good Luck and Daisy be a good patient.


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## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

I'm so sorry Jo! Poor Daisy, I hope she is not in much pain. God luck at the vet.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

The vet seems to think it's a bad sprain. He said her knee, both of them, feel stable. He said one week of rest, pain meds and we'll recheck. 

I'm not convinced. It looks just like an ACL tear to me but who am I to question the vet. It's good we have some time though, to make sure we know what it is and then to make a decision on how we're going to treat it.


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

Well... 

That is certainly good news. A sprain is much better for Daisy than another ACL tear. What did the vet give her for pain meds?


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Oh that's very good news! I hope its just a sprain so she (you) can fish more this summer


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Rimadyl for the pain. I hate to give that to her, but I only do when it's necessary and she's never had a bad reaction to it.

Thanks, Jill. Not very many people understand how important it is for Daisy to go fishing. She only gets like 4-5 months out of the year where it's warm enough. I'm very protective of her fishing season !!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> The vet seems to think it's a bad sprain. He said her knee, both of them, feel stable. He said one week of rest, pain meds and we'll recheck.
> 
> I'm not convinced. It looks just like an ACL tear to me but who am I to question the vet. It's good we have some time though, to make sure we know what it is and then to make a decision on how we're going to treat it.


 
That's great news Jo Ellen. When they manipulate the knee to examine it they can feel if the joint moves in a "drawer" motion, like when you pull out a drawer. If it moves that way the ligament is torn, if it doesn't the ligament is still intact. I panicked a few months ago with Robbie too with his left knee, he did just like Daisy - we ran to the vet, she checked it and said the ligament was fine. I know just how far up in your throat your heart was and exactly how sick to your stomach you felt.

I'm so glad the vet said it's not torn!


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## Swanolck (Jan 17, 2007)

I'm happy to hear the vet doesn't think it was her ACL. Rest up Miss Daisy so you can go fishing!!! Sending more healing prayers her way.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Here's a little fishy-fish for Daisy


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I am so glad that she doesnt need surgery for her knee. Hopefully until she can go fishing in the big lake, she can lay in the baby pool fishing for goldfish. I think the Rimadyl will be ok for the short time that she is on it. Good luck and give her lots of kisses from everyone here and my boys.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Jo- I'm so sorry, I don't know how I completely missed this thread yesterday. I'm glad to hear the vet believes it's just a sprain and send my strongest hopes that he's right. I know how excited you are for fishing with Daisy this summerand will be praying that she is able to do just that. 

Julie and Jersey


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## mainegirl (May 2, 2005)

I'm so sorry she is in pain. it's good to try and let it heal, if it is a sprain. you could get out the pool and get the feeder fish again. i really think you need to put a pond in with fish for her to practice fishing until she can get up to warp speed. you need to post the video of her fishing again.... it's a spring thing. 

beth, moose and angel


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Beth, which video ... the real fishing video or the kiddie pool with the gold fish ? 

Jill !!! I'll show Daisy your pic, I bet her tail wags!!! You're sweet :smooch:

I still think in my gut it's an ACL tear. I just can't shake it but god knows I'm a tad bit paranoid and sensitive about her knees. Time will tell.

Thank you everyone :wave:


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

Just now catchingthis. osorry to her about yur girl. Hopefull it is just a sprain and with rest, she will be fit as a fiddle in a few days.

KayCee had her first knee surgery for luxating patella at 156 months, but when she blew oher othr knee, she really blew. Had to have ACL repair this time, pins in knee, etc. Much longer rest/healing time. But she did great. Last surgery wa sover 6 yers ago.

My vet prefers to wait for ACL unless it is a total wreck. Sometimes they do heal themselves. I think he would just what your vte is doing and gie it a shot on it's own.


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## Tailer'sFolks (Feb 27, 2007)

Oh No Daisy & JoEllen!! Not now, not again...I hope the week of rest is all Miss Fisher Dawg needs...Did I hear videos? Do you mean these?
http://www.***********************.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8339
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoaxsZuGahg

 Tailer remembers Wool#1, but still has not caught a fish yet! Maybe this summer...

We are here for you, K? --Gay & Tailer


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## Tailer'sFolks (Feb 27, 2007)

Well, I see the first one didn't work too well...Can you re-post that one Jo Ellen...the crack'en bones one?


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

This is so sad. Let's hope it is not another ACL. My thoughts are with Daisy and you that she gets some fishing time in this summer.


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## goldensmum (Oct 23, 2007)

Holly had repairs to both her cruciates before she was 12 months old. The day she had the stitches out for the first, the other one went. At the time we were warned that she may never walk in which case she would have to be put to sleep. However, she had the op and at 13 (14 next month) she is still going strong. Yes, the recovery was tough, especially when she felt she could do more than we thought she should be doing, but it was worth it. She had hydrotherapy which luckily she enjoyed and i remember the first time we let her off the lead when she got the all clear from the vet, my heart was in my mouth. She had no pain meds after a couple of days and to be honest i think the op bothered us more than it did her. The vet was loath to give her to much pain med as he said it would kill the pain and therefore she would want to get up and go. Holly was a good patient and did as she was told.

Good Luck wishes for Daisy


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

My exhusband's Springer spaniel has had both legs repaired and she is a happy, wild, active, crazy gal who is just fine....


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## Jenny Wren (Feb 27, 2007)

Hey Jo...maybe you have good news with the sprain. The vet could tell that Taya had torn her cruciate because of that drawer move that was mentioned. If your vet doesn't feel it, maybe that's a good thing!

When Taya tore her second cruciate I had a good cry! But then I felt like the weight was off my shoulders. I had been waiting and worrying about the second one way too long. It tore, we went and got it fixed. It's been over 2 years now and so far so good--we never even think about it, unless she gets to cutting back and forth when she is running--then we settle her down.

Daisy and Taya had the same surgery. The extra-articulalar stabilization.

Like I said earlier, the second time around I was so much more savy. I used the towel under her belly when we went out. When we were in the living room, I tied her to the chair since if someone came, she could be up and away from me (even though I was right next to her) before I could grab her. We came home with physical therapy exercises that I did with her. And I felt so much more experienced the second time around. In the end, Taya is good! She runs outside. She jumps on the couch and even on the bed. And she loves our pond (though she has NO fishing skills).
So hang in there. You love your baby! And will do what's necessary for her. You're a GReat Mama!! Hugs to Daisy Duke...


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

It helps to read all these replies, it really does. I appreciate the encouragement and those of you who are sharing similar experiences. 

She's not better but it's only been a couple of days. I give her two rimadyl, one every 12 hours for the inflamation and pain and it's just house rest. I did let her outside earlier this evening and we walked over to the neighbors yard. They have children and she loves to be with them. She sat under the swingset with them for awhile. 

I just am not sure yet what we're dealing with. It seems too severe to be a sprain and it acts just like an ACL tear, like her last one. I worry so much because I know her left leg (the one she's had surgery on) is already weakened. Will it be strong enough to support her through this?


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I hope all goes well for her Jo Ellen...


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I know you do, Kimm. Thank you :heartbeat


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Hopefully she'll start to turn around soon for you Jo. Try to stay positive. A sprain is bound to be more painful than a rupture... more stable, but definately more painful. This could be why she's so adamant about not putting any weight through that leg right now. Just do your best to keep her quiet and think positive thoughts.... and know we're all thinking positive thoughts right along with you!

Julie and Jersey


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## Lady Di (Feb 22, 2008)

Jo Ellen, I can't tell you how heartbroken I am for you and your sweet Daisy. She is such a beautiful girl and I know how much you love her. I just have to believe after everything you two have been through that things will turn around. Prayers coming your way. Love the video Jo Ellen !!!!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm really struggling with this, to be honest. I'm afraid she can't handle another injury like this. I'm afraid she'll never fish again. 

It's hard. It's really really hard.

Thanks everyone.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Keep the Faith Joellen...
Fingers crossed for your sweet Daisy....


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

JoEllen,

I was thinking, if you are that uncomfortable with the vets diagnosis, why not bring her to see an orthopedic specialist. If it will ease your mind, it might be for the best to do it, for you and Daisy.
btw I loved seeing the daisy fishing videos again. Can you post the pool one? LOLOL​


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> The vet seems to think it's a bad sprain. He said her knee, both of them, feel stable. He said one week of rest, pain meds and we'll recheck.
> 
> I'm not convinced. It looks just like an ACL tear to me but who am I to question the vet. It's good we have some time though, to make sure we know what it is and then to make a decision on how we're going to treat it.


Oh, OK I see now. I missed this. Well, that is good news...kind of right? The best thing to do is just wait..rest and see. I know how you feel though...hugs.


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## Swanolck (Jan 17, 2007)

Oh Jo, keep your chin up. Daisy will get better. We are all pulling for her. Give her time.

I love that video. She is amazing catching fish. Silly little creatures just waiting to be eaten!!! 

Still sending prayers your way.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I'll take her back to the vet next week. If it's the same diagnosis (sprain), I'll get a 2nd opinion, yes. I'm okay with waiting either way. If it's a sprain it will take time to heal. If it's an ACL injury, I want to see if it heals on it's own before doing surgery.

I'm not going to rush into surgery.


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## lammer29 (Feb 21, 2008)

am holding my breath for you! Hope she starts to feel better in the next few days!Keep us posted!


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I agree that if you are stilling feeling uncomfortable with the diagnosis then I would definetely get a second opinion especially with a orthopedic specialist. That will help the both of you feel more comfortable. Also the specialist may have some ideas to help her feel better and in less pain. Good luck and give her some kisses from my boys. 

Love the fishing video.


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## Coffee'sDad (Mar 10, 2008)

We're pulling for Daisy and you too. Saw the video; ahhhh! the secret's out. Holsum bread... now I know.

dg


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## Dogrunner (Feb 24, 2008)

I hope Daisy feels better soon....and that her mom can stop worrying soon (that's probably the hardest part). You're in my prayers.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Daisy is toe tapping a little bit this morning. I don't think that means she's out of the woods, but it's good to see. Maybe there is hope that it's not a serious sprain and that it will heal on it's own without surgery.

I did some research last night and it is possible that she sprained her ACL, as opposed to rupturing it which she did with the ACL in her other knee last year. I'm so stupid, I didn't realize we can sprain a ligament, I thought sprains were only for muscles. 

I have resigned myself to the fact that I will be nervous and hypervigiliant about her knees for the rest of her life. She used to be able to run like crazy and climb and it was a joy to see. It's an entirely different experience now. Very sad to see.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Toe tapping- yeah, that's good. I hope she only sprained that leg, I'd hate to see her (and you) go through surgery again. Sending positive thoughts Daisy's way


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

Awww, sorry I missed this thread, Jo Ellen....Easy Mama, breathe...
I know I would worry as much as you have, but hopefully it is merely a sprain and will heal. There's a homeopathic gel/ointment made of Arnica 
that I have used with pretty amazing results after a fall or sprain, wonder if it could help Daisy?
http://www.hylands.com/products/arnicaointment.php

When Loocie was diagnosed with moderate hip dysplasia with lots of osteophytes at 9 months, I think Sharon cried for a week, wondering what would she do if Loo couldn't run and play as she had....how sad it would be.
I had to remind her that *I *couldn't run or play as hard as I did because of back surgeries and degenerative disk disease plus arthritis. And I'm still having a grand old time. and that Loocie would be no differentShe could walk the slower path with me, lol.
Thinking of you both


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Hey

Just checking in on Daisy. I am so happy to hear that she is "toe tapping" which is a term I just learned. I love learning noo stuffz. 

You are an amazing Mom Jo Ellen!

Love ya both
Vic and Buds


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Glad to hear she's toe tapping today... hopefully that's a sign of good things to come! 

Ready for your PT lesson for the day? (I need to brush up on my stuff anyway, LOL) A sprain is actually small tear in the ligament, as opposed to a full rupture which you have experienced in the past. When you sprain your ankle, that's ligament damage... same difference. A sprain will heal on it's own (depending on severity it'll likely take 1-3 weeks). Some total ruptures can heal on their own, but that depends on how they were set up to begin with... it's possible in the human ankle, although it doesn't heal perfectly (I don't know dog anatomy well enough to know if that is likely to happen with an ACL). As for muscles, an injury (minor tear) is called a strain.... the word "sprain" always refers to ligaments. I'm sure you didn't care, but the puppy's napping and I'm trying to be quiet until the rain lets up just a little so I can take her out  

Sending positive thoughts for Daisy!!

Julie and Jersey


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Julie- thanks for the 101- I've torn alot of stuff in my body and never knew the terms (sprain, strain, I've had em all), all I knew is that it HURT- and for a long time! Hopefully Daisy only has a little tear and not a full rupture.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Strain is for muscles, sprain is for ligaments. I feel sooo much smarter now !! Thanks, Julie !!!

At this point I'm hoping it's just a tear, it might even be a serious tear. But we can nurse it and if she needs surgery, we can do it in the dead of winter like we did the last time. Summers are for fishing, not recovering from surgery !!

:wave:


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

This is so hard. It's a beautiful spring afternoon. And here we are inside. I need to mow the lawn today. I'm going to leash Daisy up outside so she can at least be outside and enjoy some sun. But she's going to see kids and dogs playing and it just breaks my heart she can't join in. 

She walks on her leg a little bit sometimes, sometimes not at all. I feel like life is passing us by right now


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Glad to hear she's starting to bear some weight through her leg, even if it's only intermittent. Hopefully a sign of good things to come. I know it's hard to give up a beautiful day today, but if all goes well you'll have a whole beautiful summer ahead of you both!

Julie and Jersey


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

JoEllen look at it as one sunny day lost now but lots of more sunny days this summer when Daisy is playing in the lake fishing her butt off beating all the humans, with her leg all healed up. I think she will not need surgery, I dont know why, just something I feel.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

The glass is half full :wave:

I hope you're right Carol, and you too Julie.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I think we're taking a turn for the worse 

I have been being very careful with Daisy's leg, careful about what kinds of things she does, not letting her run, making sure she's coming up the steps straight, not letting her run around outside too much. She's taking 2 rimadyls in the morning every day and she seemed to be doing okay. So I started taking her to the lake to fish, for short periods. I just know that's very important for her. I have been hoping we can go on like this through the summer and then do the surgery during the winter like we did the last time.

But she's not in good shape tonight at all. We went to the lake for about an hour, she got a lot of swimming in which I know is the best thing for her. But she's in pain now, not wanting to walk at all. I would go so far as to say she's lame  

I'm going to make her stay home and be still the next few days but I think it's time to go back to the vet. Tonight I'm feeling like we're not going to make it until winter.

Just wanted to give an update. **** ACL's. I hate this.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Jo Ellen

I am so sorry...I am just so sorry to hear this.

Is there anything that can be done????? What about acupuncture? I know that would never heal it but might give her some relief? I am babbling because I really dont know what to say. Just know that I am here and thiking of you both

Love Us


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Sorry Jo..I was hoping with alot of rest Daisy would be feeling better


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Well, if she feels like I do with a tear in the Achilles tendon, it hurts! I don't know much about ACL's, but is it easier to repair the ACL if it doesn't rupture?


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

What do you mean by repair? I don't think there is a procedure to sew back together a partially torn ACL. Sometimes they will heal on their own with a lot of rest and really good physical therapy, but that's a long shot. My experience with Daisy is that once an ACL tears, it just tears a little bit more and a little bit more until it's torn altogether (ruptured). And then it has to be removed and something done to stabilize the joint.

Partial tears are not easy to treat. I'm not at all convinced that a partial tear can even ever heal completely. I'm more inclined to believe that once it tears even a little bit, it is permanently compromised.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm so sorry to hear this Jo Ellen, I was really hoping it would get better! 

I agree with you here, "I'm not at all convinced that a partial tear can even ever heal completely. I'm more inclined to believe that once it tears even a little bit, it is permanently compromised."

Hopefully your vet will have something more positive to say, {{{hugs}}} to you and Daisy!


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Hi Jo Ellen

I am going to do a bit or research about this because I really dont know much about it. I was wondering if your vet told you what causes this...is it genetic? I am just wondering...it is just so sad that Daisy has to go through this and worse that there seems to be nothing that can be done. I feel so badly about this.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Don't have any information to offer just want you to know I am thinking of and praying for you and Daisy.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Thank you everyone. I appreciate the thoughts, I really do!

Vic, there is a mountain of research and information out there on canine ACL's. Be careful, you'll get lost !! LOL 

What causes this, that's a good question. Daisy is a large golden, much larger than breed standard. I've read that any dog over 75 lbs is at risk for ACL injuries. I've tried to keep her weight down, that's been a continuous battle. She hovers around 80 now. I've wondered about genetics but I don't know, I haven't read anything to suggest that it could be. 

She does have mild hip dysplasia in her left hip. Her left ACL was the first one to rupture. I think those two are related, just a hunch. And then she used her right leg for a long time, compensating for her left leg being weaker. ACL injuries tend to come in pairs because of that ... one goes and then within 2 years the next one goes in like 40% of cases. It's been 1-1/2 years since her first ACL surgery.

Now that her right ACL is injured, she's using her left leg more. I hope it's strong enough to get her through this. I just can't imagine what we'd do if she didn't have either of her back legs ... don't even want to go there. But I do worry. Like a lot


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

JoEllen,
I am so sorry that the rest didnt help Daisy's leg. Sending good thoughts and prayers for her in getting better news at the vet when you go.


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## 3459 (Dec 27, 2007)

Oh, no, I thought she was doing better and going to have a great summer fishing and swimming in the lake. I'm so sorry she is having a tough time. I hope your vet can give you some better news. Sending prayers and golden hugs for Daisy and you.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Hey

I did a bit of reading about it. It seems to me that this sort of thing can happen even by simply slipping the wrong way. Scary! I will pray for you both.

Kiss Daisy for me!


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

Sending thoughts and prayers from the Ohio crew for better news from the vet.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Yes, Vic. Daisy and I used to love to walk the river trail, we did that for many years but not anymore. I don't want her on the river rock, it's too slippery.

She's doing a bit better today. It's really a shame that she can do so little without getting so sore afterwards. We used to be able to stay out at the lake all afternoon, for hours. Now we stay only an hour, sometimes even less. She's still got so much spirit, it's sad to see her body not keeping up with her.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Yes, it must be sad to see that. I always worry about Buddy at the river as well. I limit this sort of exercise ( on the rocks ). This is also why I bought carpet for my house. I worry about this sort of thing so much. I tend to err on the side of caution in most everything I do with him..I think maybe a bit too much but I guess we just do what we feel is best.

I am sure you have mentioned swimming..how is she with just swimming..is this good for her?


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> What do you mean by repair? I don't think there is a procedure to sew back together a partially torn ACL. Sometimes they will heal on their own with a lot of rest and really good physical therapy, but that's a long shot. My experience with Daisy is that once an ACL tears, it just tears a little bit more and a little bit more until it's torn altogether (ruptured). And then it has to be removed and something done to stabilize the joint.
> 
> Partial tears are not easy to treat. I'm not at all convinced that a partial tear can even ever heal completely. I'm more inclined to believe that once it tears even a little bit, it is permanently compromised.


I don't know much about ACL's. I'm learning about Achilles tendons though. At least in people they will cast you for 4 to 6 months to see if it will heal/repair on its own. It seems cruel to make them suffer while waiting for a rupture and not be able to do much to help.


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## guild.tom (Feb 7, 2008)

I had a drahthaar (German wire-haired pointer) who ruptured both ACL's. The recovery period is quite long when both legs are involved. You really need to make sure that the dog doesn't tear the repair. My drahthaar recovered completely and I was still hunting with him when he was thirteen.

Tom


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## daisydogmom (Feb 26, 2007)

Jo Ellen, I am just so sorry to hear about your Daisy. How has she been doing these past few days? This must be so frustrating for you. I'll be thinking of you both.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Thank you, everyone. We're still holding at about the same. She has good days and bad days.

Kimm, I asked about casting with her first ACL incident ... it's not something they can do, I'm told.

Daisy's repaired leg seems to be holding up. She's having to use that one a lot now and I think she'll be using it a lot for some time to come. I'm totally holding my breath on that one. 

I try not to worry about tomorrow, today is enough. But the thought does occur to me that if her repaired leg goes too, it might be time to start thinking about quality of life ?? She's almost 8 ... how much would I want to put her through. You know? But this is a fleeting thought, for now. Today is okay. She can climb the stairs and she can still fish


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Well, I guess when she wakes up in the morning after a full night of rest and she's still holding her leg up and not using it, it's time to consider a different option. We're off to the vet this Saturday ... I don't think surgery is going to wait until winter. 

I am so worried about her other leg, the one that's already been repaired. I watch her get up and she's using that one back leg to support all her weight (she's lost weight, btw). I can't think too far ahead on this, it makes me ill.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Hey Jo- Sorry to hear Daisy's not recovering as we'd hoped. At least she got to do a little fishing this summer... I know she cherishes that!! Good luck... hope everything goes well!

Julie and Jersey


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Took Daisy to the vet this morning to have her leg checked again. He did the drawer test and I could tell her knee was moving in ways it shouldn't. It's very unstable, the vet said. He said I have a couple of options...

One, keep her completely confined and always on a leash whenever she's outside in the hopes that scar tissue develops and stabilizes the knee joint. 

Second option is surgery. 

He said we could do the surgery right away if I wanted to, but there is no rush necessarily. 

The thought of keeping her confined and still is overwhelming to me. It's summer. Her spirit is still all there. She won't be able to fish, play with the neighbor kids, romp around in any fashion or even walk around the backyard. Is that any way for a golden to spend their summer??

I'm thinking we can just continue as we are until the end of summer. I take her fishing once every 3-4 days and she has fun. It's a fraction of what we used to do but she has fun and that's so important, I think. She's very sore afterwards, sometimes she can't even climb the stairs. I give her buffered aspirin and she gradually recovers. It's not good, but it's manageable. We can continue as we are until the summer is over and then do the surgery. 

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? What would you do? 

I hate ACL's. Have I said that already?


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Gosh Jo Ellen..I have NO experience with this whatsoever so cant really say. I just dont know what i would do. I would definately base any decision on what I thought was best for Buddy and that sounds like what you are doing.

I wish I could be of more help but I just dont know. 

I am so sorry about this. You know I adore you and Daisy so much. i have known you both for years...gosh, it has been a long time. You are like family! I just love you both.

I cant really help but I am here!

Love Us


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

I think you know where I stand on this....let a dog be a dog and live her life to the fullest, but be careful with her leg until she has surgery. I'd wait until fall/winter when she would be inside anyway.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

We love you too Vic ... say hi to Pudy from me and Daisy :wave:

Thank you, Jill ... I think you're right.

He checked her left knee, the one she's already had surgery on, and said it's very stable. I asked him if it can sustain her through the other knee until it's repaired and he said I didn't need to worry about that. Well, I will worry but so far so good. I wish I had a crystal ball !!


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I think I would have her take it easy till winter then have the surgery. I would ask the vet about the possiblity of taking something like deramaxx or metacam for her pain instead of buffered aspirin. I can give the metacam to Beau and it will last him for 2-3 days. If you are worried about it for her liver you can add milk thistle to her food. Beau has been on it for awhile and derramaxx before that for a couple of years and had no problems.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Thank you, Carol. I will definitely ask the vet about those two medicines. What is milk thistle and where do I get it? 

I wish I knew why this is happening to her. She was very overweight for about a year and I know that's a definite risk factor. But I see overweight goldens a lot that have not had any trouble with their ACL's. I just don't understand.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I think you have it right Jo Ellen, enjoy the summer, do as much as Daisy comfortably can and not worry about surgery until winter. I am really so, so sorry you are going through this again. I truly do understand exactly how you are feeling.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Thank you, Mylissyk. This means a lot coming from you. I know you know what this is like.

For awhile there, I really believed we were going to beat the odds. It's like 40% of dogs who blow one ACL end up blowing the other ACL within 2 years. At least this 2nd time around, I'll know exactly what to expect. I think it will be much easier this time. For me anyway.


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## Jenny Wren (Feb 27, 2007)

Hi JoEllen...so sorry to hear the news on Daisy. Bummer! 

You are such a good mom to her. You are always looking out for her and you give her the best life!

I would agree with what advice you have so far. The only thing I would be careful of is winter... You get snow, we get snow. Taya's one knee was done in January and although she was inside and pretty sedate, it was also icy sometimes when we had to go outside, especially those first so careful days. And they can't walk in the snow so it meant snow blowing areas for her, etc. All doable, but extra work! The one good thing about January was that by the time we had to do all the flat land walking, it was spring and the weather was better. It was a 6 month process for Taya before she was really all better. 

My heart goes out to you... but you see how strong that first ACL is now. Her second one will be as strong too someday. ((Hugs))...


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Daisy's first surgery was in January too. The first week after her surgery, it was 30 below !! I had to take her out on leash everytime she had to go to the bathroom, including 6AM. It was brutal. A neighbor snowblowed a path for her and cleared a wide area and then I used a lot of salt. 6 months, I know...it's a long haul.

Now I'm watching her get around today, after a simple visit to see the vet, and she's pitiful, not using her leg at all. She picks a spot to lay down and then I think she discovers it doesn't relieve the pain so she gets up to find another spot. She'll do that several times before settling in and each time I see how difficult it is for her to negotiate even the simple task of getting up, I wonder if I should just do the surgery now and get it over with. 

I'm really quite torn.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I believe you can get it at most health food stores.


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## Gldmom3 (Jul 20, 2008)

I'm giving my male golden milk thistle for his kidneys (just a little high, not too bad) and I buy it at Publix. In the vitamin asle. It's a common suppliment for those humans that drink a little too much


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Gldmom3 said:


> It's a common suppliment for those humans that drink a little too much


Definately good to know~~~


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Good to know Publix has it, I love that grocery store. They have the best bakery and deli.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Now I'm changing my mind about waiting. Today was a beautiful hot sunny day, we should have been at the lake but her leg just wasn't up to it. Most days she can't do anything at all.

I'm thinking I want to get this done and get it over with. The more time she has to recuperate now, the more ready she'll be next summer to enjoy doing anything she wants.

You're right, Jenny...what I wouldn't give right now to see her right leg as strong as her left. And the sooner she gets her right leg back to full use, the less at risk her left leg will be. 

Not to mention that doing the surgery now means less time on anti-inflammatories, like the rimadyl or aspirin.

Right now I'm thinking I'm going to call her vet tomorrow and tell him I want to do the surgery in 2 weeks.

The good news is she only has two knees ... this should be the end of our ACL journey. It better be, I want my dog back.


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## Jenny Wren (Feb 27, 2007)

JoEllen...That's exactly what my vet told me! She said, once both knees are done there are no more knees to do! And remember that your vet says that the repaired knee is strong. Soon you'll have TWO strong knees.

I know its such a hard decision to make. If you do it the end of July, can you take some time off to be with her? I took a week with Taya although in retrospect, after the first couple of days, crate rest was just as good. In fact, I thought she got in more trouble when she was with me. The second time around, if she was out of the crate, she was tied on a 6 foot leash to the recliner chair in the living room with me. The worst was when she'd hear someone outside and decide to "take off" barking. If she was leashed, she wasn't able to go and hurt herself. 

By Fall you'll be able to be walking a little on the flat. At least the weather will be good for both of you.

If you are resolved, then go for it. You've always done the right thing for her. And once you get into it, we'll be right here with you day by day... ((Hugs to you both))


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Jenny, I just love you. Have I told you that? 

I'm really all set for her surgery. We don't have a crate this time but I have almost 2 weeks vacation I can use though I probably will only take a few days because I can work from home as often as I need. She has a good e-collar and I have a good air matress so I can stay downstairs with her at night. I have a baby gate to block off the stairs whenever I have to leave for a bit.

I will need a couple more throw rugs to cover my wood floors but that's simple stuff. I know exactly what we're doing this time 

:wave:


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

JO Ellen,

I think you are doing the right thing!

You always do the right thing for Daisy. Just think about next summer..WOW, you wont be able to keep up with her!

XO
Vic and Buddy


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Daisy is scheduled for surgery Wednesday, July 30.


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## lammer29 (Feb 21, 2008)

So sorry to read that Daisy is not doing so well after all. I think you are making the best decision to have it done asap.Keep us posted on how she is doing. Atleast this time you know what to expect, and Daisy, too! For the winter I bought that Safe Paws product to put on the deck so that Zoey wouldn't fall immeditely upon going outside to do her business (leash or no leash). It is supposed to be pet friendlier than reg salt for the ice. I know that I watch Zoey for any sign of her other knee going....my thoughts are with you and Daisy.. Good Luck!


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