# Pure bred does not mean well bred.



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I saw this on FB and wanted to share. Both of these dogs are the same breed and truly shows why people on the forum recommend finding a quality breeder. BIG difference in full bred and well bred.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

That certainly clearly shows the difference between the two. 

I live in an area where a lot of people think because their dog is "AKC" Registered that it entitles them to breed their dog.


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## Jmcarp83 (May 4, 2018)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> That certainly clearly shows the difference between the two.
> 
> I live in an area where a lot of people think because their dog is "AKC" Registered that it entitles them to breed their dog.


I feel like there’s a lot of that everywhere. I have people tell me all the time “my” dogs are too small for goldens because they know someone with a huge golden and I’m sure it came from an Amish farm. Because I see them in the papers all the time here. My original golden came from a farm. Not Amish. Bred 1x a year. But I’ll be the first person to say...she structurally was nothing like my “well bred” goldens.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

I’ve shared this one around on social media before too.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Very pointed!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Emmdenn said:


> I’ve shared this one around on social media before too.
> View attachment 869623


I have seen some goldens who are VERY VERY WELL BRED. And more heavily titled than the golden in the bottom right who I vaguely recognize. And they are the homeliest critters you ever saw.

Think very straight fronts, very short backs (no length of loin), and either straight rears or grasshopper legs in back. These dogs might have narrow heads with pointy occiputs and snipey noses. Their ear sets might be very high. The coats might be single coats and bone wise, they are as reedy boned as a sport bred border collie. These dogs could never get their CCA's because of size issues.

These dogs come from very well respected breeders who get their dogs to live 12+ years on average, may have full litters of highly titled pups in obedience or field, and because these people are so successful, you have people very unwilling to directly preach all the sections of the breed standard that don't recognize their dawgs. 

Additionally, bottom left picture - is an overweight and ungroomed dog. Hate to say this, doesn't matter what the breeding is behind a dog, owners can muck it up + dogs unfortunately have coat changes and gain weight as they get old.

The dog in the picture is sway backed - and that can make him look high in the rear, when he technically isn't. He looks like he has a nice front though straight in the rear. Thickness of coat + body condition unfortunately hide that dog's good points.

If I could get my hands on this dog, I would start with a full bath and blow dry to remove all the dead coat. Then I would tackle that ruff and neck, removing most of the bulk so that poor dog can breathe!

And the guy needs attention for any thyroid issues + may need to get regular chiropractor appointments, because I guarantee that back is sore.


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## jeffscott947 (Jun 9, 2019)

*The pictures of the dogs that are supposedly poorly bred are obviously meant to get the author's message across*. 

They show the "poorly bred" dogs in the worst possible conditions (photographically and grooming). This is similar to pictures of politicians shown on news reports, that show "the enemy" politician in the worst light possible. 


The pictures of the "well bred dogs" are taken at better angles, with better backgrounds and with better depth of field; and as said above..of dogs that were nicely groomed. 

Unfortunately a "well bred" dog doesn't always equal a healthy dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Well. No amount of grooming will fix the problems that are most commonly seen with very poorly bred dogs. 

I did a very quick google search for "backyard bred golden retriever" just curious what would come up. 

I immediately noticed 3 pictures in particular. 

I'm not posting them because that's rude based on what I'm going to say. Plus a lot of people just love their dogs. They don't realize what's "wrong" with the dogs OR they are not ready to hear it. 

One person I know of claimed she was OK about hearing criticism of her dog - and she fell apart when somebody (not me!!!! I would never!!!!) gave it to her. Usual rule of thumb is that even when people say that they want to hear all the negatives, they really don't!

Dog # 1 - flyaway ears (like a border collie). Poor pigment/pink nose. Clearly has hip dysplasia, displayed by the dog's rear clearly locked together as he moves. Very weak looking rear with no muscle. Roached back. Coat was fine, just soft looking (could have been spay coat, etc).

Dog # 2 - Looked like a shetland pony. A beautiful one, but excess EXCESS Heavy HEAVY coat. Based on another dog I know of who had a legit health condition which caused overgrowth of coat, could have been the case with this dog as well. But you are looking at a rare health issue causing excess coat - or careless breeding by the breeder producing excess coat. 

Dog # 3 - typical generic byb retriever. Nothing stands out at all about the dog. Very plain head - narrow with pointy occiput showing. Long ears. Snipey nose. Pink nose/poor pigment. High rear. Weak "lumpy" back (dog is 4 apparently so it's not immaturity). Weak pasterns, easty westy feet. No bone. High tail. Rear length (hips to knees to hock) MUCH longer than the front angle.


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## Otter (Feb 23, 2011)

The dog in the bottom right picture of the 6 goldens looks amazingly like our Mr. B.
Good looking dog.

Not only is there lack of knowledge of pure bred vs. well bred, there are the well-meaning people out there that constantly shame people for going to breeders to get a well bred dog. They argue everybody should go to the pounds/shelters and rescue. I have a lot of respect for people who do that. I think it's great people do that. Just not the kind of dog I want.


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## OscarsDad (Dec 20, 2017)

Certainly should be no shame in either choice.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Thanks everyone and love the golden comparisons. My point was more about health, temperament and cost. People try and find bargains or purchase at pet stores & craigslist pups with the expectations of the look of the well bred dog only to be disappointed. Too many people get dogs with terrible structure, temperaments and bad health... SAS, hip/elbow dysplasia. There is no guarantee on a living pup but buying from a reputable breeder certainly improves your chances.

How often do we see post asking "does this look like a golden" or "I found my puppy dead" or "my puppy has severe hip dysplasia" or why is my dog attacking everyone in the family? Most have either found a neighbor having "pure bred" puppies or flashy web sites that has nothing to do with a well bred puppy. They either tried to save money or have spent as much if not more only to have health issues for the life of the dog. 

My hope was to make a visual point for all the people that over pay for puppies from people that don't do testing for structure or health or even understand what the standard is. If you are going to spend the same amount of money why wouldn't you take the time to get a quality, healthy puppy? 

I'm not saying every show / breeding dog is perfect... quality between breeders and styles is another discussion all together. I have two girls that represent two extremely different perviews. One is gorgeous but so over coated it's a nightmare to take into the field. This group of breeders don't hunt or do agility or obedience, they breed for flash not purpose. She is big boned and poor shoulder structure that makes it hard for her to swim or do competitions with jumps. This group of breeders need to revisit the breed standard and remember what these dogs were bred for. And walking around a show ring shouldn't be their only purpose. No where in the standard does it say they are big boned or have massive coats. 
The other is also beautiful, soft coat and built to not only succeed in conformation but run in the field with ease and won't need 2 hours of grooming after. This breeder is active in all aspect of competitions. Amazing how much I have learned from this forum and as much as I love my beefy girl I would definitely choose the more versatile style dog in the future. And can't stress enough how important it is to know enough about your breeder to understand their purpose in breeding goldens.

All pups deserve to be loved. Just saying if you get a craigslist pup or buy from a neighbor, don't expect the look of a well bred puppy and certainly don't pay more than a few hundred for a pup from untested parents with history of good health behind it. Anyone can build a website, don't believe everything you read. Get what you pay for.


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## jeffscott947 (Jun 9, 2019)

My recently passed Border Collie was a shelter dog and the best, and most loyal dog that I have ever had the pleasure of owning. She was 5 yrs old (we think) when I rescued her from the Humane Society and lived to 14.5 yrs! She was definitely not a breed standard Border Collie in stature or in personality. This was her 1st day home in 2010.
This was the girl that had her quality of life extended for an additional SIX MONTHS by treating her with REAL CBD oil. I actually had made her "appointment" back in July of 2019, but she did great until the end of December, when I took her in for the last time.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Border collies are actually a very good example of you can't tell how well bred a dog is just by looking at them. :0

Have seen some performance line ones who have roached backs and other things going on. Awful looking dogs.

The show ones are breathtaking - and not just in the show ring.

Couple years ago, I got to SEE one in obedience whose dog got like a 199 score and beat out the goldens. Show line BC. Breathtaking dog. Moved like a dream. I remember the judge could not take his eyes off the girlie - primarily because 99.9999999% of BC's you see in obedience are the ones who are built weird.

Another example of a good vs bad breeder - the good breeders will make the earth move with their wrath if they find out that their dogs ended up in a shelter or rescue.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

jeffscott947 said:


> My recently passed Border Collie was a shelter dog and the best, and most loyal dog that I have ever had the pleasure of owning. She was 5 yrs old (we think) when I rescued her from the Humane Society and lived to 14.5 yrs! She was definitely not a breed standard Border Collie in stature or in personality. This was her 1st day home in 2010.
> This was the girl that had her quality of life extended for an additional SIX MONTHS by treating her with REAL CBD oil. I actually had made her "appointment" back in July of 2019, but she did great until the end of December, when I took her in for the last time.
> 
> View attachment 869633


Some of my best dogs were rescues! I'm 100% for supporting rescues but not bad breeders trying to make a buck.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Obviously both photos that were shared are broad generalizations, and there are deviations in both directions of well bred vs poorly bred.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I get asked all the time what mine are mixed with. It's just that people aren't used to what a golden should actually look like. I get things like...my friend's golden weighs 100 pounds or his head is so wide. I've heard someone call my girl an English Shepherd. I try to gently explain to them that this is how a golden is supposed to look and that they are only supposed to be this size or slightly bigger. 

I have 2 shelter dogs right now. I think they make great pets. The one I competed with is now retired. She doesn't do well with strangers. She was an amazing Novice dog except for stand for exam. My other one is a little dog that appears to be a poorly bred Brussels Griffon. We honestly have no clue though. She is a resource guarder. I was moving their food into the plastic containers and she acted like she was going to tear my golden's face off for getting too close to one piece of food that fell on the floor. With the issues that I know I have with them, I wouldn't compete with them anymore.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Border Collies are going to be a hotly contested topic of "purebred does not mean well bred" because the BC camp has been so heartily split into two. Somebody who raises BCs for actual sheep herding will look at a show line BC, maybe appreciate the structure of the dog, but would almost certainly never say the dog is "well bred" because to them, a dog that doesn't have the drive or athleticism to perform the task at hand is not a well bred dog.

Whereas the show line BCs will look at the working line, NOT sporting line dogs, since the sporting line dogs are all over the place, but the working line, maybe appreciate the dog, but many would not call it well bred.

I saw a quote the other day "an untypical dog of any breed that is sound is useless. A typical dog of any breed that is sound is priceless". Form and function should go hand in hand. The shoulders should come to a 90 degree angle, the body should be slightly longer than tall. You can breed a dog that technically should be perfect at performing the task at hand, but when you breed for appearance, ESPECIALLY in herding dogs, you will lose the herding instinct very quickly unless you are keeping up with it too. The BCs in America and Europe are split into ABCA and AKC and ISDS and KC, because they're so completely different. 

While the examples given are true examples of purebred vs well bred, comparing some dogs is truly up to each person's discretion and what they want to do with that dog. A dog should be able to work without breaking down, but it should also want to work. It should do its job and do it well.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Abeille said:


> I've heard someone call my girl an English Shepherd. I try to gently explain to them that this is how a golden is supposed to look and that they are only supposed to be this size or slightly bigger..


I think I saw you say that before and my head kinda went rolling LOL. I've never heard of English shepherds and had to go look - basically looks like an aussie with a tail? I still don't get it!

I think with my dogs - people somewhat hesitantly ask if they are labs? <= And hesitantly, like they know they're completely wrong, but don't know what the real answer is? LOLOLOL.

Or they feel the need to tell me that they know somebody with a "white golden" like that naturally follows when meeting purebred goldens. At which point I get a frozen smile and opt to say nothing. NOTHING. 

BTW - if I sound giddy, I just found out that 2021 the GR national is going to be in Michigan!!!!!!!! Thank you to the club down in OH for using a Michigan site!!!!


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Tagrenine said:


> Border Collies are going to be a hotly contested topic of "purebred does not mean well bred" because the BC camp has been so heartily split into two. Somebody who raises BCs for actual sheep herding will look at a show line BC, maybe appreciate the structure of the dog, but would almost certainly never say the dog is "well bred" because to them, a dog that doesn't have the drive or athleticism to perform the task at hand is not a well bred dog.
> 
> Whereas the show line BCs will look at the working line, NOT sporting line dogs, since the sporting line dogs are all over the place, but the working line, maybe appreciate the dog, but many would not call it well bred.
> 
> ...


There are several breeds with this split and probably always will be. Gratefully for GR there are still some breeders that have retained the beauty, brains and instincts of this breed. Pretty sure there are dedicated breeders in all the breeds. But honestly my point was more about all the disillusioned people supporting poor & unethical breeding practices. Each of us has a desire for either performance, style or just want a well tempered pet but everyone should receive a healthy well bred puppy free from genetic & heredity problems... or at least deal with a breeder that does their best to do this. And certainly frown on the people spending thousands on pups from breeders that offer nothing but puppies and no regard for the breed they sell.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

puddles everywhere said:


> There are several breeds with this split and probably always will be. Gratefully for GR there are still some breeders that have retained the beauty, brains and instincts of this breed. Pretty sure there are dedicated breeders in all the breeds. But honestly my point was more about all the disillusioned people supporting poor & unethical breeding practices. Each of us has a desire for either performance, style or just want a well tempered pet but everyone should receive a healthy well bred puppy free from genetic & heredity problems... or at least deal with a breeder that does their best to do this. And certainly frown on the people spending thousands on pups from breeders that offer nothing but puppies and no regard for the breed they sell.


Of course! The public definitely needs more education when it comes to buying a purebred dog. The online market place has made it unfortunately way too easy to buy from an unethical breeder


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## jeffscott947 (Jun 9, 2019)

Megora said:


> Border collies are actually a very good example of you can't tell how well bred a dog is just by looking at them. :0
> 
> Have seen some performance line ones who have roached backs and other things going on. Awful looking dogs.
> 
> ...


Border Collies also make great service dogs. If you have never seen a working BC herd..you will love this short flick! The ability to work in teams is amazing and fun to watch.
TBH, I believe that mine was either a farm dog that was surrendered for chasing livestock, or maybe a service type animal that the owner was unable to care for.
I also have the Golden Puppy (another farm dog), a BC/Lab mix puppy (farm dog too), and a Mini Aussie from an accidental litter west of town in the stix of Nevada. I would NEVER consider one dog better then the next..just different. The BC was my heart dog and is just..well..different and hard to explain.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Megora said:


> I think I saw you say that before and my head kinda went rolling LOL. I've never heard of English shepherds and had to go look - basically looks like an aussie with a tail? I still don't get it!
> 
> I think with my dogs - people somewhat hesitantly ask if they are labs? <= And hesitantly, like they know they're completely wrong, but don't know what the real answer is? LOLOLOL.
> 
> ...



Yeah....I really don’t get that one! She looks like a pure golden to me! Lol! Ugh. The English cream thing. I’ve been asked that more times than I can count! 

Was there an announcement about national? Im excited to go. Not going to Florida this year. 

And here’s my “English Shepherd” the darker one.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't think there has been an official OFFICIAL announcement to general public, but the OH clubs have been notified that the show will be held down in Monroe. And Christy Thomas said Labor Day as far as schedule - which I love how early that is! I'm sure the show will be held inside on carpeting in the big building, but they could show outside on grass! 

Cuyahuga Valley GRC is still hosting - but they are bringing it up into Michigan. Which is awesome. Should pull as big or bigger entries than the show back in 2015!  

Since I'll be saving money on travel and hotels - I probably will enter more stuff! By then I should have 3 dogs in obedience and maybe conformation....


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Thats awesome Kate! The Eastern Regional Specialty was just announced and I am so excited to be able to enter this year!!! We are going to enter in obedience and the CCA.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Megora said:


> I don't think there has been an official OFFICIAL announcement to general public, but the OH clubs have been notified that the show will be held down in Monroe. And Christy Thomas said Labor Day as far as schedule - which I love how early that is! I'm sure the show will be held inside on carpeting in the big building, but they could show outside on grass!
> 
> Cuyahuga Valley GRC is still hosting - but they are bringing it up into Michigan. Which is awesome. Should pull as big or bigger entries than the show back in 2015!
> 
> Since I'll be saving money on travel and hotels - I probably will enter more stuff! By then I should have 3 dogs in obedience and maybe conformation....


I have known some things for a while. We were told to keep it quiet. If Christy is talking about it then I imagine it's okay and the announcement will come soon. I'll definitely have one in obedience, maybe one in agility. I will have to stop showing one so my granddaughter can show one in 4-H. She will get my girl. Maybe we can find something for her to enter by then.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Abeille said:


> I have known some things for a while. We were told to keep it quiet. If Christy is talking about it then I imagine it's okay and the announcement will come soon. I'll definitely have one in obedience, maybe one in agility. I will have to stop showing one so my granddaughter can show one in 4-H. She will get my girl. Maybe we can find something for her to enter by then.


I was planning to attend even if the show were down in southeast OH. 

If the show were this fall, I'd definitely say I'll have 3 goldens in conformation and 3 goldens in obedience (BN, CD, and CDX levels). 

Looking out a year - I hope I can still show Bertie, but he will be 9 years old by then and may need and fully deserve complete retirement.

Otherwise, may just be showing the two babies next year in conformation for sure... and whatever level they will be at for obedience.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Megora said:


> I was planning to attend even if the show were down in southeast OH.
> 
> If the show were this fall, I'd definitely say I'll have 3 goldens in conformation and 3 goldens in obedience (BN, CD, and CDX levels).
> 
> ...


It wouldn't be in Southeast Ohio. There's pretty much nothing over there! Central or Southwest.  I'm pretty excited to go. We are skipping Florida. I have a big, once in a lifetime vacation coming up.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Abeille said:


> It wouldn't be in Southeast Ohio. There's pretty much nothing over there! Central or Southwest.  I'm pretty excited to go. We are skipping Florida. I have a big, once in a lifetime vacation coming up.


I just vaguely knew it was supposed to be somewhere near the PA edge. That's southeast of Toledo, OH (Michigan logic) LOLOL.

Seriously speaking - I'd been planning on doing the National when it was in MO a couple years ago. It would have been fine - I have family down there that I would have stayed with. Then when I heard OH was coming and that blew MO out of the water.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Megora said:


> I just vaguely knew it was supposed to be somewhere near the PA edge. That's southeast of Toledo, OH (Michigan logic) LOLOL.
> 
> Seriously speaking - I'd been planning on doing the National when it was in MO a couple years ago. It would have been fine - I have family down there that I would have stayed with. Then when I heard OH was coming and that blew MO out of the water.


LOL! Southeast of Toledo is pretty much the entire state of Ohio.


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## dlmrun2002 (Mar 4, 2011)

Speaking of pure bred vs well bred I could NOT believe my eyes when I saw an ad on this forum for a puppy mill farm. I get the uptick with ads even though they are ugly and a hassle but a Puppy Mill Farm? Golden blasphemy coming from the top.

dlm ny country


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## Loriaaa (Jul 14, 2018)

I think if you look back 50 years or more in any breed you can see that the breed standards for all dogs have changed across the board. From German shepherds with their dropped hind quarters to Golden’s more petite features and lanky profiles that none of this was an original breed standard, just people trying to change the breeds. We then question why our pets have so many health issues. I’m not a breeder nor a vet, but something seems amiss.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

The breed standard of the Golden Retriever has changed very very little. Goldens have always been a medium dog breed. The standard stressed moderation, and when you see huge 80-100 pound golden retrievers...those dogs are actually way out of standard. Breeders who produce dogs that are that far out of standard don't care about the standard...and are not breeding to preserve the breed. Most golden retrievers that you see out and about are not from reputable breeders. 

What most of the general public does not know, is that breed standards were created to preserve FORM and FUNCTION. When a breed standard calls for a specific feature, it is because there is a purpose for that feature, so a dog can perform the job they were bred to do. Goldens are meant to be a specific size, with specific features so that they can successfully perform their job.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Loriaaa said:


> I think if you look back 50 years or more in any breed you can see that the breed standards for all dogs have changed across the board. From German shepherds with their dropped hind quarters to Golden’s more petite features and lanky profiles that none of this was an original breed standard, just people trying to change the breeds. We then question why our pets have so many health issues. I’m not a breeder nor a vet, but something seems amiss.


The breed standard has not changed. 

There is nothing wrong with the golden retriever breed standard.

What's wrong is when people just breed whatever they have on hand without any knowledge of what exactly is INCORRECT and POOR QUALITY with their dogs and the dog-things they are producing. 

One other comment is the line "form follow function" - it has been repeated so many times in all situations to attack show bred goldens, that I think people have lost track of what it actually means. Or what they are saying.

What I think they are saying is that rather than breed to a set standard and throw away dogs who have titled sometimes very highly in sports like field or agility, they are making excuses for breeding dogs who they say are built for those sports. 

This where some dorks in field try saying that show bred goldens are too heavily coated to swim. I could not believe my eyes at the idiocy of somebody saying that a golden with a show coat will struggle to swim - just because he has a correct double coat with furnishings.

Talking with somebody in obedience (who is regularly producing dual champions with her breed) about goldens and the typical issues that new owners face - like the strong necks and pulling. 

Her comment was this breed should be a medium large breed (around 60-75 pounds), have a good sized jaw, moderate sized head, and good strong neck and shoulder construction designed for carrying heavy birds. 

But people in other sports point at show goldens and claim they have been bred to look like newfies - which clearly shows that they have never met a newfoundland in person. 

When people recite form follows function - what they really mean is they don't care what the dog looks like or how that dog applies to a physical translation of the breed standard. All that matters is whether that dog is an excellent working dog. What they leave out are the back injuries and extraordinary muscle injuries that these dogs suffer while working - a big part of which is due to structure. Those injuries should be a reminder that form is still very important!


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I'm pretty sure breeders on this site would take exception to the change of the standard. The standard has been refined to be more specific but hasn't actually "changed" the basic standard for size, coat, purpose or temperament. When I compared the 1970 version to today, the basic stuff was the pretty much the same. 
However I'm positive there are plenty of breeders & judges that have a very different interpretation of the standard.


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

As an aside - well bred GSDs don't have dropped hindquarters. Any breed in a three-point stack will have the same "sloped back". Rumor, the GSD who won BIS at Westminster 2017, is OFA excellent. The reason GSDs in particular are shown in the three-point stack is because it shows angulation more and it's a natural position for them to stand in - the same way that a structurally balanced golden retriever "should" naturally stand in a four-point stack.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

aesthetic said:


> As an aside - well bred GSDs don't have dropped hindquarters. Any breed in a three-point stack will have the same "sloped back". Rumor, the GSD who won BIS at Westminster 2017, is OFA excellent. The reason GSDs in particular are shown in the three-point stack is because it shows angulation more and it's a natural position for them to stand in - the same way that a structurally balanced golden retriever "should" naturally stand in a four-point stack.


She had a sloped back when gaiting too....

Although I agree stacks can make any dog look bad if the feet are set up weird.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Megora said:


> This where some dorks in field try saying that show bred goldens are too heavily coated to swim. I could not believe my eyes at the idiocy of somebody saying that a golden with a show coat will struggle to swim - just because he has a correct double coat with furnishings.
> 
> Talking with somebody in obedience (who is regularly producing dual champions with her breed) about goldens and the typical issues that new owners face - like the strong necks and pulling.
> 
> ...


This argument gets old. There are show breeders that go to the extreme and there are field breeders that go to the extreme. Yes there are also field breeders that breed dogs that aren't structurally great but can work their butts off all day. But let's not pretend that there aren't just as many show breeders doing the same and breeding dogs, while structurally great, couldn't find a bird if it dropped at their feet. You can't talk about one extreme and not admit that the other side doesn't do the exact same thing.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

myluckypenny said:


> This argument gets old. There are show breeders that go to the extreme and there are field breeders that go to the extreme. Yes there are also field breeders that breed dogs that aren't structurally great but can work their butts off all day. But let's not pretend that there aren't just as many show breeders doing the same and breeding dogs, while structurally great, couldn't find a bird if it dropped at their feet. You can't talk about one extreme and not admit that the other side doesn't do the exact same thing.


Field dogs blah blah blah.

Show dogs blah blah blah...

My poop is better than your poop? 

You DO understand that there are a LOT of show dogs who have structural issues too???? 

There was a past show where I was covering my mouth and nodding while somebody had a fit because they saw a dog win who was a BLOB. I'm not sure the dog was as bad as all that, but it is true class dogs shouldn't be rippling and waddliing in the ring and still winning.... 

Another situation I heard of was a young puppy golden who won his class (did NOT win in the Winners Ring) who everyone outside the ring was stopping and looking at and not for the right reasons - because the dog looked like he had hip dysplasia. One breeder commented that she put better dogs in pet homes than that "crap". 

Does that tell you that all show dogs are that bad? 

Well, no... the only reason why those dogs stand out is because the quality is usually better with flaws easier to hide.

Have I said that all field dogs are terrible looking with poor structure, incorrect coats (single coats, no furnishings, etc)? Not lately. 

My actual comment (that you snipped out so it wouldn't conflict with your bellyache) was that the overused line "form follows function" is latched onto by people who have NO CLUE what correct structure actually is and they use it to defend breeding and reproducing dogs who have terrible structure that might be fine with them, but will create heartache for puppy buyers whose dogs need to be retired because of elbow dysplasia, spondylosis, catastrophic and vastly unusual muscle injuries, and so on.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Megora said:


> My actual comment (that you snipped out so it wouldn't conflict with your bellyache) was that the overused line "form follows function" is latched onto by people who have NO CLUE what correct structure actually is and they use it to defend breeding and reproducing dogs who have terrible structure that might be fine with them, but will create heartache for puppy buyers whose dogs need to be retired because of elbow dysplasia, spondylosis, catastrophic and vastly unusual muscle injuries, and so on.


Lol I snipped it out because people are more than capable of scrolling up a couple lines to see your full message. I do so for brevity more than anything as I don't like to make long rambling messages.


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## jeffscott947 (Jun 9, 2019)

My gifted, non conforming, farm bred Golden has no idea that she is "not well bred"! (9.5 months old)


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

myluckypenny said:


> Lol I snipped it out because people are more than capable of scrolling up a couple lines to see your full message. I do so for brevity more than anything as I don't like to make long rambling messages.


But the point of my comment was specifically regarding the form follows function statements which everyone makes despite clear evidence that dogs seem to function very well despite having really terrible structure. Your very response reiterated the message that nobody cares as long as the dogs pick up birds. That is an argument for producing a working dog that comes in all shapes and sizes. Especially if people are disregarding any need to follow, understand, adhere to a breed standard when breeding.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I admit, I'm far from an expert. I've seen show dogs with long ears and a way too long coat. I've seen field dogs with high ear sets and long spindly legs. I really like the moderate dogs best....right in the middle of the 2 extremes. I know mine aren't perfect specimens of the breed standard. They are well within the standard in most aspects, their CCA's tell me that. I understand breeding for a purpose, but I also think the other side of it should always be considered.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Abeille said:


> I admit, I'm far from an expert. I've seen show dogs with long ears and a way too long coat. I've seen field dogs with high ear sets and long spindly legs. I really like the moderate dogs best....right in the middle of the 2 extremes. I know mine aren't perfect specimens of the breed standard. They are well within the standard in most aspects, their CCA's tell me that. I understand breeding for a purpose, but I also think the other side of it should always be considered.


And the breeders behind both your dogs are among a very few in the obedience world who actually are breeding for the whole dog and they know and are very picky about the breed standard.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Megora said:


> And the breeders behind both your dogs are among a very few in the obedience world who actually are breeding for the whole dog and they know and are very picky about the breed standard.


Yes, thank you. I am very lucky. I always have people ask about my dogs.


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## Mde13004 (Feb 20, 2019)

I am by no means an expert on the Golden Standard but I do have very strong opinions on breeders. Not because I want a structurally sound dog that can hunt or look great but because I want a healthy dog and I absolutely refuse to put money in a back yard breeders pocket. I think dog homelessness is an epidemic that we need to get under control. Buying a dog from a breeder that will not even take the dog back or help rehome him /her is just feeding into the problem. If you're not willing to look for an ethical breeder and spend the cash that a healthy well bred dog is, then just adopt! I found this article a while back and liked the way it spoke about well bred vs purebred. 





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Good Dog







www.gooddog.com


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