# Avoid Golden Creek Kennels / Susan Harb!



## New Golden Fan

Regrettably, although they have a nice website, my advice is to steer clear of Golden Creek Kennels. We excitedly purchased an English Cream Golden puppy. The owner was careful not to disclose the age along the way of the puppies, but sold them at one day less than 7 weeks old. That was, from what I've learned, a bit on the young side. She hurried us to choose and get out the door. Although she said if there were any problems to let her know and that they had a warranty... her concern was not genuine nor sincere.

Within several weeks of having our puppy home it became evident that she had some serious issues (beyond normal puppy) with biting, aggression, and jumping. We engaged a professional trainer who confidently believed he could get her under control. After a 2 hour session. he threw up his arms and said he had never seen such a dominant puppy - only this kind of behavior in adult dobermans and german shepherds and recommended that we contact the breeder about taking her back. This was heartbreaking to hear. But we were thoroughly at our wits end - with bites and scratches all over our family's bodies. 

The owner - Susan - was completely unhelpful and unsympathetic. We called, and she did not call back. We called again and somehow caught her. Her response to our situation was to say "Well - you chose the dog". She was not willing to let us exchange the puppy for another, nor give us any of our money back. We followed up with additional emails and phone calls to discuss our issues further and she would not even respond at all. We have been unable to reach her at all after that one phone call. 

A good breeder would want their dog to be with the appropriate family and in the appropriate environment. This is not a good breeder, nor a good business person. I fear what other things I have subsequently read are true - this is a puppy mill...they don't seem to care about the health, behavior or placements of their puppies. They just care about collecting your check. 

Avoid this business and select another breeder. 

We love our pup and will find a way to make it work. But she is in it for the money and doesn't care about the dog nor about doing right by her customers.


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## Ljilly28

It's never a good sign when registered names and health clearances arent available front and center. Sorry you had such a terrible experience!


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## FlyingQuizini

I'm sorry you're having a difficult experience. I don't know this breeder, but from what you've said, I just wanted to share the following thoughts:

* In most states, 7 wks is the min legal age for selling a pup. I like to get mine at 7 weeks. The fact that your was one day shy of 7 wks doesn't concern me too much. It's the people who let pups go at 5 or 6 weeks that are, in my opinion, a problem.

* The fact that you were sold an "English Creme" is a red flag that perhaps the breeder is more profit-driven than about bettering the breed, etc. That term is a marketing ploy.

* I'd find another trainer. As a trainer myself, I can't imagine throwing my hands up and not being able to at least leave you with some concrete steps to start modifying the pup's behavior. It sounds like since what your trainer usually does didn't work, he didn't know what to do next. IMO, good trainers understand the science of behavior modification and can therefore use the science to develop all sorts of training protocols -- not just have to rely on a one-size-fits-all approach, only to be at a loss when it doesn't work.

There are "demon puppies" out there -- pups that are just genetically messed up and likely will never be great dogs, and worse, might be dangerous dogs no matter how much training. Doesn't sound like you have one of those...

Where are you located? Perhaps we can direct you to another trainer?

As for the breeder's behavior when you contacted her - that's most unfortunate. I'd expect her to at least be sympathetic to your struggle and worst case, offer to take the puppy back and provide it a home (or re-home) while giving you at least a partial refund. 

In the meantime, I'd suggest looking at your "puppy management system" at home and seeing what you can do to make it harder for this puppy to misbehave. Golden pups ARE mouthy -- some way more than others. Keep lots of great chew items on hand and ALWAYS have one ready to stick in his mouth. Keep him with you on a leash so he can't get too crazy, or so when he does, you can calmly lead him to his crate or pen area where he gets a little down time and can no longer chew on you. Be sure he's getting a fair amount of (age appropriate) exercise; tired puppies are generally better behaved, unless they are just TOO tired and need a nap!

Keep us posted.


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## mylissyk

Let the board know what area you are located in, I'm sure members here can recommend very good trainers to help you.

FYI - it is totally normal for Golden puppies to nip and mouth pretty badly until they are taught not to. 

I hope you will find in the future that the work and effort you put into your puppy has been worth it.


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## CarolinaCasey

Sometimes when puppies aren't well socialized early in their lives and are taken away from their littermates and mother early, they don't learn enough about bite inhibition.

Please seek a new trainer, as mentioned. Let us know what part of your state you live in- I'm sure someone can make a recommendation.

You've got this little, beautiful, fresh slate puppy- give her a chance. I'm sure she will blossom with time, commitment, and love.


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## Pointgold

There are a number of past posts regarding this breeder, who was suspended by the AKC. There are plenty of reasons that I would avoid them.
As for the situation in this thread, it is unfathomable to me that any breeder would not be concerned about the PUPPY, if not the owner, and the possibiltiy of it not being in the right home. THis is yet another reason why I, and other reputable, responsible breeders, make the placement selections ourselves.


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## fostermom

They have 33 breeding females and 8 breeding males? That sounds like a seriously HVB to me. Interesting that she is listed in Raleigh and in Durham. I have never heard of her before. She has an open house tomorrow, I wish I could go!


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## tippykayak

You may have luck with another trainer. Any trainer who throws up her hands that quickly and talks about "dominance" is probably not the highest level professional you could find. If you really are committed to making this work, try to find a certified behaviorist.

You can also search the forum for tips on dealing with bratty, bitey puppies. There are lots of management tips and tips to decrease the unwanted behavior.

As you search for a behaviorist, make sure you DON'T use hard, physical methods to control the pup. Often the root of so-called "dominant" behavior is insecurity and fear on the pup's part. 

Obviously, none of us can tell you exactly what course to take since we aren't hands-on with your pup, but there are some basic things (in addition to finding a new professional) that you can do that would help or at least not hurt.


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## fostermom

By the way, OP, if you are local to Raleigh and can give me a week or two (I am boarding three dogs right now, so I have a house stuffed full), I would be more than happy to help you with the puppy. I am in Raleigh.


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## Jackson'sMom

People like that puppy miller from whom the OP got her puppy just disgust me. All they care about is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.


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## MillysMom

I'm so sorry that this breeder got her hooks into you, and sold you a puppy that you are not happy with. It is so important for breeders to match puppies to the personalities of the people purchasing the puppy. I hope that you will learn a lot from this forum.

I see that you are from the Carolinas. I don't know where you are from, but wanted to suggest contacting Swift Creek Kennels. When I was little we found a chow, golden some other stuff mix as a 4.5 week puppy. He really missed out on the critical time with his mother and litter mates to learn bite inhibition, and had other behavioral problems. We sent him to Swift Creek for boot camp, and he came back a phenomenal dog! We also bought a lab from Swift Creek that came with training with them, and she went back to them quite a few times in her first year for hunting training. They did a great job with her, and while she had a lot of drive and energy, she was really knew how to contain that energy even as a 1 year old lab. My brother went out and did some training with them and our lab, as he wanted to do hunting with her, and really loved their methods.

I know other people who have had the same success with them. If you are anywhere near Swift Creek it might be a good option for you. I think our Chow mix was with them for 2 or 3 months, after 6 weeks my brothers and I were able to go out and work with him to make sure he wouldn't bite or jump on playful kids.

http://www.swiftcreekkennel.com/

Really, finding any trainer would be beneficial, well, one that won't give up after 2 hours. I just wanted to share my experience with having a dog go to "boot camp".


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## MillysMom

fostermom said:


> They have 33 breeding females and 8 breeding males? That sounds like a seriously HVB to me. Interesting that she is listed in Raleigh and in Durham. I have never heard of her before. She has an open house tomorrow, I wish I could go!


That is just sad.


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## MGMF

A golden is a golden not an "English Cream" Color does not make for an english cream. There are many breeders who produce light colored dogs but wouldn't use this rediculous "marketing tool". That is a huge red flag. Not having their registered names listed is another. There is no listing of clearances on these dogs. Though a breeder claims to breed only one breed doesn't mean they are not a puppy mill. Thank you for sharing the name so others can get educated. You need good help for your puppy now or you will have a very difficult adolecent and horrible adult. Golden retirever are wonderful dogs and it would be terrible for you to be traped with a bad attitude dog. Socialize, socialize and get help soon. Good Luck


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## New Golden Fan

Thank you all for your responses! We have indeed engaged another trainer who has been great. We are working religiously with our puppy and have definitely seen improvement. We are dedicated to making it work and know it will. Of greater concern to me is the lack of professionalism, responsiveness, sympathy, concern and problem resolution displayed by this breeder. We traveled a long distance to go to this breeder based on a recommendation and have been very disappointed. I worry about what will happen to those with health or even more serious behavior issues. My experience would indicate that the customer should assume they are on their own the minute they leave the property of this breeder. 
Thank you again for all the constructive advice!


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## New Golden Fan

*health clearance paperwork*




Ljilly28 said:


> It's never a good sign when registered names and health clearances arent available front and center. Sorry you had such a terrible experience!


You're right - she did not provide health clearance paperwork. Should that have been provided to us?


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## nixietink

New Golden Fan said:


> You're right - she did not provide health clearance paperwork. Should that have been provided to us?


Yes, absolutely. Either copies or links to all the clearances in the OFA database.

I'm sorry to hear about the bad experience you have had but am so happy to see you dedicated to your puppy. I think that is fantastic! At least you now know better for any pups in your future.


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## Ljilly28

So many bad breeders have glossy, tempting websites. It's all too easy to be fooled.


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## KathyF

I'm so glad you found another trainer and are having success. I just wanted to say we got our golden at the exact same age, one day short of seven weeks, and she was also mouthy and bitey, particularly with my youngest daughter (who was 12 at the time). I always suspected lack of socialization among her fellow pups.

She turned out to be the greatest dog ever! When she was two I took her to my mom's nursing home, sneaking her in at night, expecting the worst--but she behaved beautifully! My only regret is that I did not pursue therapy with her; she'd have been perfect! She was such a gentle dog--very true to her breed. 

Good luck, and you've come to the right place for advice in the future.


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## Mad's Mom

I'm glad that you found a great trainer to work with. 

When I got my first husky, I had no clue about dogs, and took her home at 6 weeks old. Needless to say she did not have enough time with mom and littermates, and was poorly socialized. She was a stubborn girl, and a complete handful, but with the work of a great trainer (who recognized Rhiannon as a challenge, but one worth taking on) turned into an absolutely wonderful, loving, and trustworthy dog who was my companion for 12-1/2 years. 

I am so sorry about your experience with this so-called breeder, but glad your pup has you to provide a good future. 

Wishing you the best of luck, it can be tough, but very much worth it.


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## MAJacksonK9OTR

I am so sorry! I had 2male litter mates bought in 1998. The first one died at age 6 abdominal annyurism and the other cancer mass cell at age 3. The 2nd lived till this year but I have had thousand of $$$$$ medical bills. He dogs are beautiful but so scary. She built this new ranch on the backs of all her abused dogs. She is know in the Raleigh area a the fancy local puppy mill. When I went to get a new golden in 2003 I heard all this info it is really bad. She is all about the money. The breed lines are dirty. I have friends who were vet texts at her vet who said it was common knowledge that these dogs were all hemophiliacs and all the hidden illnesses. STAY AWAY!!!!people have tried to shut her down for years. It makes my heart hurt as I have adored my dogs from her and hate that they are such amazing animals and have suffered so much needlessly. Take care hand in there


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## Pointgold

33 bitches and 8 dogs. Whew.


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## cubbysan

I had a fear agressive german shepherd. I too bought him from a high volume breeder. 

When I was looking for a trainer / behaviorist, many would not even evaluate him and I had a handful tell me to put him down before I had children.

I finally found the right trainer. Within two hours he showed me the dog I was capable of having. Within two months, I had a dog I had total control of. He never hurt my kids and would actually herd them for me.


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## Gwen

Pointgold said:


> 33 bitches and 8 dogs. Whew.[/QUOT
> 
> & I'm sure that she had to quit her regular job to provide "care" for her dogs! I wonder what her annual vet bills are????? Probably next to nothing. "Ode to the Irresponsible Breeder" definitely applies here!


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## Pointgold

Gwen said:


> Pointgold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 33 bitches and 8 dogs. Whew.[/QUOT
> 
> & I'm sure that she had to quit her regular job to provide "care" for her dogs! I wonder what her annual vet bills are????? Probably next to nothing. "Ode to the Irresponsible Breeder" definitely applies here!
> 
> 
> 
> This is one of those slimey situations where she has a "foster" program. Read that "prostitute pregnancy program". She sells bitches to people who agree to allow her to breed them for xx number of years, profitting off the uteri of those poor dogs, until they are too old or otherwise do not produce, at which time the "owners" own them. In the meantime, she has no expenses or time invested in them. What a sham.
Click to expand...


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## Jleway

My Golden, Lady, at the beginning was a nippy pup! Geez she had an attitude! I didn't know what to do! Penny, my first Golden, was so docile. They were complete opposites. So, I consulted the vet, the breeder, and my dad who use to compete in obedience. The vet told me to contact a trainer. The breeder told me that Golden puppies, especially females, can be a little bit nippy and rascally when they are really young. She told me to be patient. My dad was baffled by it. So, I decided to be patient and it worked like a charm. I cut and filed her nails or claws to eliminate the scratching... a pain, but it eliminated some of the actual pain. The thing that I think helped me the most was the word "NO!" Teach your dog that word right off. Every time the pup does something you don't like... say "NO!" with extreme firmness, but don't be obnoxious because the pup could take it as play. I would even start crating the pup when it nips. This will help in potty training and in behavioral adjustments. Goldens thrive off attention and human interaction... if you take that a way for a bit when it nips... the pup should catch on. It's like sending the pup to it's room. 

Ceasar Millian... the Dog Whisperer... always says "You don't always get the dog you want, but you get the dog you need." I believe it!

Lady is my puppy baby now. She is calm for her young age and a sweet heart. I can't imagine my life without her. She is truly my best friend. So, just hang in there and be patient. Not to sound like a broken record, but yes... consult another trainer and don't give up on the pup or on yourself.


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## New Golden Fan

Thank you! Glad to hear the encouraging words. We have been working with another trainer for quite a while and seen very positive progress. We have a good puppy - strong willed - but I know she will eventually calm down and be a great dog. We will continue to work with her an feel certain it will pay off in the end. Now if we could just get the paperwork from the breeder backing up her claim that the puppy's parents are "clear" from a health perspective, that would be great. After 5 requests - still no response at all.


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## Phillyfisher

Pointgold said:


> 33 bitches and 8 dogs. Whew.


34- you missed the owner. 

To the OP- So sorry that you are forced to deal with this now, but you are truly a blessing for your puppy. I am so glad you found a good trainer to work with and are totally committed to making it work. There is a reason for this puppy coming into your life- and I am sure you will eventually find out why. 

You have come to the right place, and there are plenty of knowledgeable people here ready to help!


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## Mad's Mom

Just wanted to say that I'm glad things are working out with your new trainer and that your pup is showing progress. She really is blessed to have come into your family.

As for her "breeder", I really have no words...


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## Sucker For Gold

Phillyfisher said:


> 34- you missed the owner.


LOL Phillyfisher. You don't include "sorry bitches" in the tally though, so discounting the pathetic owner/breeder it's still 33.


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## xSLZx

Sorry to bump old posts, but i'm new here and getting a LOT of useful info regarding breeders in NC. After reading this post as well as another one on Golden Creek Kennels, i am officially deleting them from my bookmarks. We won't be getting a puppy from them! On a side note, if anyone knows of any good breeders in NC or PA, who breed the white english cream puppies, let me know. This is the kind we are currently looking for.


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## MGMF

There is NOTHING wrong with having a preference in what shade of Gold you want. You will be able to find good responsible breeders who can provide you with a light colored golden. Just avoid ANY breeder who advertises their litters as "white", "creme", "cream", "platinum", "silver" and where "English" is added to any of these terms. These are marketing ploys to trick the buyer into thinking their dogs are worth more. A golden retriever is a golden not an engish something. You want a good golden breeder that happens to have a litter of light colored goldens. Research for clearances will eliminate a lot of bad breeders. Good Luck


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## audreyannlow

I'm sorry you got sucked into supporting this unethical business although your pup is lucky to have you. It's certainly not the first I've heard, and I'm glad you are dealing with the issues. Just out of curiosity, were you even given AKC registration for the puppy, or is she still suspended?

The breeder aside, while your trainer may indeed be an excellent one, you might want to talk to several others. Are you in the triangle area? If so, call Jane Marshall and Barbara Long!

It may be a good idea to take care of your puppy's hips, keeping him lean and fit with plenty of swimming, at least until he's old enough to be definitively checked for hip/elbow problems. Also check regularly for cancer once he grows up. From what I've heard, dysplasia and cancer run strongly in this kennel.

Most importantly, enjoy each day of your baby's life.


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## Pointgold

MGMF said:


> There is NOTHING wrong with having a preference in what shade of Gold you want. You will be able to find good responsible breeders who can provide you with a light colored golden. Just avoid ANY breeder who advertises their litters as "white", "creme", "cream", "platinum", "silver" and where "English" is added to any of these terms. These are marketing ploys to trick the buyer into thinking their dogs are worth more. A golden retriever is a golden not an engish something. You want a good golden breeder that happens to have a litter of light colored goldens. Research for clearances will eliminate a lot of bad breeders. Good Luck


Having a "preference" is fine, yes, but it should never be the first priority when selecting a dog. Overall health (and a solid ancestry of clearances...)temperament, and structure should be given more importance than color.


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## audreyannlow

xSLZx said:


> Sorry to bump old posts, but i'm new here and getting a LOT of useful info regarding breeders in NC. After reading this post as well as another one on Golden Creek Kennels, i am officially deleting them from my bookmarks. We won't be getting a puppy from them! On a side note, if anyone knows of any good breeders in NC or PA, who breed the white english cream puppies, let me know. This is the kind we are currently looking for.


I'm guessing you're looking for a pet? Shelters and rescues are full of dogs who desperately need homes - dogs who were born stray, in backyards, at Golden Creek or other unethical breeders, etc. I do know of a sweet, gorgeous boy at the Orange County Animal Shelter. If you're in the triangle area, please meet Igor in person - his picture is horrible! There is also Jack at Paws4Ever.


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## WLR

Ljilly28 said:


> So many bad breeders have glossy, tempting websites. It's all too easy to be fooled.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I like the ones that invoke *religion* as part of their deception that they are more than they really are.


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## WLR

Pointgold said:


> 33 bitches and 8 dogs. Whew.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That's not a breeder, that's an assembly line.


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## audreyannlow

33 _canine_ bitches...

...that was inappropriate


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## nixietink

audreyannlow said:


> 33 _canine_ bitches...
> 
> ...that was inappropriate


??? Why was that inappropriate? It's correct terminology.


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## JakeJessy

I was quite shocked when I read your post here. But then I remembered what we went through when we purchased our dog from Golden Creek Kennels. We chose Jake (our first dog) because our youngest son was deathly afraid of dogs and Jake seemed the most docile. Well, he wasn't at all!! The scratches on us were too numerous to count. Destroying furniture and difficult to crate train to say the least. So, we took him to PetSmart for obedience training. Yeah, a waist of time and money. All he wanted to do was play with other dogs. We were at our wits end and were ready to thrown in the towel. We thought maybe more training would do the trick or a “boot camp”. Then I read something that Golden’s need exercise, lots of exercise. I walked Jake almost 4 miles a day. Two in the morning and 2 at night, even in the NC summer!! Still not enough exercise for him. Then we discovered Suite Paws in Raleigh for doggy day care. OMG!!!!! It saved us. He goes at least once a week to get out ton of pent up energy. He plays with other dogs that go through temperament testing to see if he/she is too aggressive. They also have a swimming pool which Jakes hogs all the time. You can watch your dog on the webcam during the day and they do boarding. From 12-7pm, the cost is about $12 and it does wonders for him. Jake is now the most docile dog you will ever meet. No longer biting and never again chewed on furniture, ever! PetSmart thinks he's in perfect shape and he literally stops people in the street because he is so beautiful. We love him so much that we went back today and picked up our second Golden, Jessie. She's eight weeks old while Jake is one year. Without Suite Paws, or something like it, we would have given up. Jake would have destroyed the house and the yard. The social skills and exercise he gets there is invaluable and worth every cent.


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## jackie_hubert

I'm glad you've found something that works for you and has turned your dog into a calm pet, even though he did not have an ideal start in life from the sounds of the breeding operation he was born into. Good daycares are worth a million bucks (though bad ones can be terrible). We too use doggy daycare when we are away (though now that Cosmo is 6 months and still unneutered we can't take him to his favourite place anymore). He even enjoys getting in the car now which he used to hate. Now he thinks we're going to DAYCARE!!!! WHOOHOO! Even when we're not. lol.


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## Bender

JakeJessy, I hope you will take the time to read the information here on what to look for in a breeder (like clearances) as well as the information on your breeder being banned from AKC and learn from them. And keep in mind the possible problems from getting puppies from breeders who do not do health clearances on their dogs. 


Bear in mind that these questionable breeders are often very nice and friendly if it means you'll give them money.

Lana


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## JakeJessy

Your right, I should have read through everyone's post. Particularly the health related stating one stating their dog didn't live so long. But it looks like I got a good history of Jake and Jessie with their related shots when I picked them up. We got emails each week for 8 weeks on the status of the puppy along with pictures, and like I said, the vet says he's in perfect health. AKC is a cause of concern but even that doesn't guarantee the health of the dog. We also take exceptional care of Jake and now Jessie. Perhaps the overwhelming TLC we give them made up for the short comings along with doggy day care. For the last eight months, Jake has been the most incredible dog I have ever had. I don't regret getting Jake/Jessie other than the fact that I hope they live as long as I hope they does. I could have adopted a Golden from the rescue and saved the money, but they're home now and it's only money. Perhaps in 10 years, I will revisit my decision making process on the next Golden.


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## diana_D

There are so many red flags on that website! First, no dog or bitch has a registered name displayed. No pedigrees /links (so you can study lines), nothing really mentioned! I would run away instantly!


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## JakeJessy

I certianly understand that but like I said, I took Jake to Banfield which I would have done regardless of where I got him from and chose the Optimum wellness program and the dog in perfect health.

Dog Health Plan Options: Dog Health Care Plans to Suit Your Pet - Banfield


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## Abbydabbydo

And the reality is, Finn came from a great breeder with all clearances, but was a PITA puppy. (although a lab) Even at three I just found him in the pantry with his head in the food box, one paw on each side, it was accidentally left open. Gotta love them.

Sometimes we need to adjust our expectations.  And pick up our pooper scoopers.


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## Pointgold

JakeJessy said:


> I certianly understand that but like I said, I took Jake to Banfield which I would have done regardless of where I got him from and chose the Optimum wellness program and the dog in perfect health.
> 
> Dog Health Plan Options: Dog Health Care Plans to Suit Your Pet - Banfield


 
And I pray that he remains in perfect health, and doesn't suffer any of the genetic illnesses/disease that do not show up until later, and are often not looked for/found with routine veterinary care, no matter how good it is. Please read the threads on forum regarding Pigmentary Uveitis, as an example.


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## JakeJessy

Aside from Pigmentary Uveitis you can also go beyond routine care and get you dog tested to see if he/she has a predisposition toward hip dysplasia

Also according to the AKC, Susan is good standing today with several owners registering their dog. I will attempt to do the same with Jake.


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## Ljilly28

Best of luck to Jake! We always wish the best for dogs and their owners. GRF is lucky to have the advice of so many experienced professionals as far as good breeders and puppy mills, backyard breeders and responsible breeders. Hopefully, people reading these threads who have not yet selected a puppy will heed the good advice.


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## Pointgold

JakeJessy said:


> Aside from Pigmentary Uveitis you can also go beyond routine care and get you dog tested to see if he/she has a predisposition toward hip dysplasia
> 
> Also according to the AKC, Susan is good standing today with several owners registering their dog. I will attempt to do the same with Jake.


 
Curious as to what test is done at Banfield to se if there is a "predisposition toward hip dysplasia"... ? And, what is done if there is?


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## cassandra

*Don't Be Fooled By "God Bless"! message--Susan Harb bad for dogs*

I wish we'd seen this blog before we got involved with Susan Harb of Golden Creek Kennels in Durham, NC. We got a puppy from GKC that cannot see well enough to be a true retreiver. Susan Harb was not interested in helping us figure out what might be going on--were there other pups in Sammie's litter who also have vision problems? Harb refused to contact other owners so we couldn't find out. When we called, her voice mail message ends with "God Bless"--I am so tired of unethical people hiding behind the guise of religion. 
Harb is interested in one thing only--getting your money. Her house was full of Frontgate catalogue items. Her husband was sitting on the sofa, eating, while she sold pups. Guess he doesn't need to work anymore.
We saw over 40 puppies in several different litters while we were at GKC. THIS IS A PUPPY MILL--DON'T BE FOOLED BY SLICK WEBSITE AND CLAIMS.
NOT APPROVED BY BBB.
PERHAPS HARB SHOULD BE REPORTED TO PETA--THAT WOULD GET THINGS ROLLING......


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## Sportingdog

*I'm Another Susan Harb/Golden Creek Victim*

We got our puppy many years ago from Golden Creek. He was really beautiful (as all puppies are!) but as he got older, we started to notice some behavioral issues. And, unfortunately, these issues got worse. We've spent thousands of dollars on trainers and we also had him tested for every possible disease. The result? While he's fine physically, our vet believes he was the victim of "over breeding." He's very dog aggressive and has gone after our other dogs as well as dogs belonging to friends and family. He even put a puppy in the hospital. Mind you, this dog gets aggressive if another dog even walks near him.

After 8+ years, we emailed Susan and told her we were bringing the dog back to her. She emailed us back and asked us to call her. We did and that was the last we heard from her. We couldn't bear to surrender the dog to a shelter and truthfully, I was also concerned that Susan would put him down - so he's still with us. Another family might not have been so willing to try to make it work. The dog is over 10 years old now - he's lost some of his "fight" and seems content to eat and play alone. Our other dogs know to avoid him since the sightest thing can trigger a bite.

Since then, we've become much smarter and only work with reputable breeders who are members of a breed club. All good breeders will proudly show you the pedigree and health records of their dogs and keep in contact with you long after the puppy has left their kennel.

It's unfortunate that people like Susan Harb are able to continue operating.


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## nolefan

Just curious, is there anything we can do to this thread so that it would at least show up if someone did an internet search trying to research this breeder? I think a search engine would look for the term "Golden Creek Kennels". 

It would be nice if someone trying to research goldens and running across that website would at least maybe see this also. 

I'm curious if the dog owners who've been so unhappy with this woman have tried registering any complaints against her with a state or county agency? It won't help your situation, but maybe it would help save someone else in the future?


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## MGMF

Sportingdog, I am sorry you had such a bad experience. A golden should be enjoyed and it is a shame you had such limitations. I commend you for your committment. It is a shame the breeder could not help.


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## Tahnee GR

If you google "Golden Creek Kennels", another thread from the forum pops up in around 4th place.


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## diwedwards

I purchased my dog from GCK in July 2008. Susan Harb was kind, patient, and extremely professional each time I spoke with her. I had several questions prior to picking up my puppy and she was always helpful by returning both emails and phone calls promptly. Believe me, I contacted her several times with lots of questions since it was the first time I had ever purchased a dog. When I went to pick up my dog, she sat down with me and gave me, as I call it, "Petey's Baby Book." It had all shot records, dates he needed to visit vet for upcoming shots, ways to help with housebreaking, suggestions for introducing him to children and other pets in the home, etc. I felt as if I were adopting a child. Her kennels are immaculate and I was so impressed. Each month all who have purchased a puppy from her and those who may be interested are invited to come out for an Open House. My vet, dog food carrier, groomer, etc. are all quite impressed with my dog, too. Susan Harb goes above and beyond in my eyes! Are you sure your experience was with GCK?


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## DNL2448

It's a bird, it's a plane, no, it's the first time poster extolling the virtues of a greeder!


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## Kmullen

diwedwards said:


> I purchased my dog from GCK in July 2008. Susan Harb was kind, patient, and extremely professional each time I spoke with her. I had several questions prior to picking up my puppy and she was always helpful by returning both emails and phone calls promptly. Believe me, I contacted her several times with lots of questions since it was the first time I had ever purchased a dog. When I went to pick up my dog, she sat down with me and gave me, as I call it, "Petey's Baby Book." It had all shot records, dates he needed to visit vet for upcoming shots, ways to help with housebreaking, suggestions for introducing him to children and other pets in the home, etc. I felt as if I were adopting a child. Her kennels are immaculate and I was so impressed. Each month all who have purchased a puppy from her and those who may be interested are invited to come out for an Open House. My vet, dog food carrier, groomer, etc. are all quite impressed with my dog, too. Susan Harb goes above and beyond in my eyes! Are you sure your experience was with GCK?


Hello and welcome to the forum. I noticed that this is your first post and you joined today! When you get a chance please tell us a little about yourself under member introductions. So, glad you have had a happy and healthy puppy so far. Going above and beyond...would include doing health clearances in my eyes. Her facility might be immaculate, but that does not constitute a good breeder.


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## diwedwards

I am so sorry I even posted to this forum. I did not mean to offend any of you and I do not even know Susan personally, but I just wanted others to know I could not be more pleased. I would hope if someone wanted to share a nice compliment about one of you, others would not be so quick to jump on board and attack you.


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## DNL2448

diwedwards said:


> When I went to pick up my dog, she sat down with me and gave me, as I call it, "Petey's Baby Book."
> 
> Her kennels are immaculate and I was so impressed.





diwedwards said:


> I do not even know Susan personally, but I just wanted others to know I could not be more pleased.


Huh. Okay.


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## Kmullen

diwedwards said:


> I am so sorry I even posted to this forum. I did not mean to offend any of you and I do not even know Susan personally, but I just wanted others to know I could not be more pleased. I would hope if someone wanted to share a nice compliment about one of you, others would not be so quick to jump on board and attack you.


No one is attacking you. We get a ton of peope coming on here with their first post defending the breeder (most of the time it is the breeder behind another screen name). So, when we see that this is your very first post on here...well it looks a little suspicious. That is great that you like her, we are just saying that she does not do clearances and few people have had problems with her and her breeding. I do not know her either...but I would never get a puppy from her.


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## boofunk

*Golden Creek Kennels is the BEST*

My daughter has had a GCK dog for quite a few years. He is the BEST dog ever. Susan Harb is a loving, caring woman who hand raises her puppies from day one. Aside from their outward beauty, their inward beauty and breeding shines through. Our little 14 yrs. old Schipperke is best friends with this big Golden and he is as gentle as can be with him, along with an assortment of cats! I highly recommend this breeder. She is caring and loving and her facility is top rate. You will never be sorry with one of her gorgeous dogs............


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## JakeJessy

I have posted on this thread several times and I continue to defend and support Susan. We're tired of the hacks spreading this garbage and going unchallenged. Both my Goldens are not only in perfect health but are the most loving and docile dogs on the planet.


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## mylissyk

diwedwards said:


> I am so sorry I even posted to this forum. I did not mean to offend any of you and I do not even know Susan personally, but I just wanted others to know I could not be more pleased. I would hope if someone wanted to share a nice compliment about one of you, others would not be so quick to jump on board and attack you.


Please don't take it personally. We've had the unpleasant experience of bad breeders coming on the board and posting glowing reports about themselves, under guise of someone who bought a puppy from "them" and is very happy. 

If you are actually a new puppy owner you are definitely welcome here, please introduce your self and your puppy, and join us in talking about the dogs we all love so much.


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## Kmullen

boofunk said:


> My daughter has had a GCK dog for quite a few years. He is the BEST dog ever. Susan Harb is a loving, caring woman who hand raises her puppies from day one. Aside from their outward beauty, their inward beauty and breeding shines through. Our little 14 yrs. old Schipperke is best friends with this big Golden and he is as gentle as can be with him, along with an assortment of cats! I highly recommend this breeder. She is caring and loving and her facility is top rate. You will never be sorry with one of her gorgeous dogs............


Okay...now it is a little ironic?? Don't ya think? 2 people that just joined TODAY would make their very 1st post in the THIS thread!!


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## Zazoo

I totally agree.. Madison came home the day she turned 6 wks. I didn't even think about it until it hit me she shouldn't have been away from her Mom until at least 8 wks to learn how to act with her litter mates and mommy training.. 
So Madison at first was loving, but started biting really hard and jumping up scratching, and I started to seek help.. Of course I found none.. I have a obedience trainer coming soon now that she is 3 months.. Just in the past few days she's seemed to have calmed down a lot.. What has changed in her life is my hubby's anniversary gift to me which was was another Golden Puppy.. A 8 wk old purebred that was very calm. Zane.. Madison still has her hyper moments but calms down much quicker.. I thank Zane for helping teach her what is right way to play.. So as she grows and as we work with the obedience trainer I have huge hopes for her and calming her down.. 




CarolinaCasey said:


> Sometimes when puppies aren't well socialized early in their lives and are taken away from their littermates and mother early, they don't learn enough about bite inhibition.
> 
> Please seek a new trainer, as mentioned. Let us know what part of your state you live in- I'm sure someone can make a recommendation.
> 
> You've got this little, beautiful, fresh slate puppy- give her a chance. I'm sure she will blossom with time, commitment, and love.


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## DaisyGolden

JakeJessy said:


> I have posted on this thread several times and I continue to defend and support Susan. We're tired of the hacks spreading this garbage and going unchallenged. Both my Goldens are not only in perfect health but are the most loving and docile dogs on the planet.


 
I'm sure that you love your goldens and they are wonderful as you say. I think you are very lucky. The reason so many people have a problem with this breeder is because no good breeder would ever have that many dogs that they breed and no good breeder would breed without all the dogs health clearances, period. There is no defending the fact that she doesn't have the clearances. She may well seem to be a very nice person and to someone who doesn't know what to look for when buying a dog I could see them getting fooled by that. Look on the choosing a golden breeder and puppy area of this forum and look at the puppy buyers checklists and I think you will see that she wouldn't come close to being a breeder anyone should choose. Remember one of the most important things about finding a breeder is those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. This woman is running a puppy mill from her home. She is doing this for profit and nothing else. All of the pretty puppy pictures and god bless yous are nothing more than smoke and mirrors.


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## gcklover

I came by this forum and saw all the negative attention GCK was getting, so I made an account to share with you my experiences.

I am a 13 year old boy named Austin Hilvert. I have always dreamed of having a puppy! My grandfather bought his dog from GCK and it is the best dog I've ever met. She is upwards of 6-7 years old now, and doing well.

So our grandfather took us to meet the people at GCK. We got to meet and hold a litter, when they were about 4 weeks old. We couldnt have been more impressed. The staff was wonderful, the puppies were great, and it was all very clean and organized.

So a month later, at 8 weeks, we took one home. I have had a lot of dogs in my 13 years, but this dog, Kashmir, is the smartest, most submissive, single best dog I've ever had. I am now a member of the GCK Facebook page, and people are always posting new pictures of their puppies. Susan is always giving us tips to take care of our dogs. 

This couldn't have been a better experience. Thank you Susan!


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## JakeJessy

Like I said in the past, I have my dogs on a very healthy diet. They are extremely active and go in for a physical twice a year. I pay for extra exams to make sure there is nothing wrong. And every time I bring them in, perfection. I don't think luck has anything to do with it. If even a fraction of the amount owners felt as the people did in this thread, she would have been shut down. The fact is, this thread represents a couple of disgruntled customers compared to the countless others who are blessed to have GCK dog. People are upset here because Susan treats it like a business. Well, you can still love what you, do a fantastic job and still treat like a business.


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## gold4me

Hmmmmmm interesting.


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## rpeoples

This is my first and most probably last post on this board! I'm not sure whether to cry or throw up at the hate and vile comments that have been posted in this thread. 

First - I am a proud Mom to 2 - yes TWO beautiful GCK goldens! An eight year old and a five year old. When the time comes that we lose one of our precious pups, I have no, absolutely NO, HESITATION of returning to GCK and to Susan Harb for our next dog.
With our first goldens, we were not the most informed of pet owners and I'm sure that our Ezmerelda and Sampson were the result of puppy mill breeding. It didn't change the fact, though, that we loved them and were devastated in their passing. When the time came to adopt a new family member, we were fortunate to find Susan Harb and GCK. Our experiences were wonderful!
This woman loves goldens and loves the joy that here dogs bring to their adoptive families. For that reason, we returned when it was time to add to our family.
Her kennel is impeccable and her "foster" program ensures that her dogs live in a loving and caring environment for their entire lives. Litters are celebrated and when the time comes, the mothers are retired to live out their lives with their adoptive families. Even suggesting that what she does is REMOTELY like a puppy mill is simply VILE and untrue. I would suggest you get the facts before spouting lies!
I've seen her take back full grown dogs because they "don't fit with the family's lifestyle" and then work tirelessly to find the right home for them.
I've enjoyed bringing my guys home for the monthly Open House! I have enjoyed spending time with those foster families that have been chastised on this very board.
To the original poster - maybe you aren't cut out to be a golden owner. How about trying a ferret instead...or maybe a pit viper.

And as far as bad breeders posting "glowing reports about themselves"....why don't you look into bad breeders posting lies about others....there is a saying that if you can't be successful yourself, the next best thing is to undermine the competition!!!!!!


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## Sophie_Mom

Leaving personal opinions aside, the facts speak for themselves - WAY too many dogs + NO clearances=VERY bad "breeding" practices. I'd never ever support someone that has 33 females being treated as baby ($$) machines - Unethical and inhumane.


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## JakeJessy

kfayard said:


> Okay...now it is a little ironic?? Don't ya think? 2 people that just joined TODAY would make their very 1st post in the THIS thread!!


Not Ironic at all. I have been posting for over year and I'm just tired of defending Susan on my own when I know there 100's of families who are thrilled to be referenced as a GCK dog owner.


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## JakeJessy

Sophie_Mom said:


> Leaving personal opinions aside, the facts speak for themselves - WAY too many dogs + NO clearances=VERY bad "breeding" practices. I'd never ever support someone that has 33 females being treated as baby ($$) machines - Unethical and inhumane.


Your right, the facts do speak for themselves. 100's of happy families and a few disgruntled customers who, for whatever reason decided their lifestyle of owning a Golden didn't fit anymore. So, since we're keeping score, how dogs too many??? And who decides that?


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## Sophie_Mom

And clearances? How can you possibly defend the fact that despite all of the money she is raking in from these dogs that she can't even spare a little to ensure that the dogs she's using should even be producing offspring? Obtaining clearances should be the absolute bare minimum in a breeding program.


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## Sally's Mom

gcklover refers to how nice the "staff" is at GCK. Let's see, the staff here in my house where an occasional litter is bred consists of me, my DH, and 2 teenage sons... And I don't ever part with any of my dogs, breedable or not....


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## Bella's Mama

Are we up to 4 brand new posters defending GCK?? At my other, much less kinder boards, I spy a troll....


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## DNL2448

They are all over the place! The air is thick with them today.



JakeJessy said:


> Not Ironic at all. I have been posting for over year and I'm just tired of defending Susan on my own when I know there 100's of families who are thrilled to be referenced as a GCK dog owner.


Funny, your join date is October 2010, so not a year.


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## alsublett

*tired of the craziness*

I have been involved with GCK for years. I have two dogs from GCK (the best dogs ever). They have perfect health and temperament. I have loved this place for a long time. I have been a member of this site for years as well... I read tips on training and advice on brands of food - A couple of years ago, I posted of my love for GCK... after reading the horrible comments about them, I stopped posting and decided to keep to myself on this site... only answering private messages and such.

But this is ridiculous... this bashing is crazy... so one owner could not handle his dog... so obviously, GCK is horrible? Really? 

Grow the hell up. If you find a breeder you like great - if you find a trainer you like great... but all puppies mouth on stuff. all puppies will chew on shoes or something that smells like the people they love. I have had a great trainer tell me that he does not train dogs, he trains the people who care for them... so maybe you as an owner suck at raising a pup.

GCK is a good kennel. It is a business, yes. The dogs are loved and cared for. They are treated with love and kindness that I wish you could see. Every time I am there (more than once a month), I do not want to leave. The pups are precious and held and kissed and seen by the vet who come to the home regularly. I have been present for several vet visits and have heard the wonderful things said by the vet. I take my two dogs to be groomed by the same place that GCK uses and they also LOVE having GCK dogs there due to the great behavior of them all. 

After 5 years of being involved here, Susan is a dear friend of mine. She runs a good kennel and should not be torn apart on this ridiculous site. Yes, she has a lot of dogs. But they are in homes with families and are loved on DAILY. She does not breed them till they are "too old" (they retire before 5 yr) and she does not force breed EVER. She only breeds when there is interest in certain dogs.

If you have not dealt with GCK, you can not judge nor should you. The website alone should not be your judge and jury.

When I was looking for a golden I visited a lot of your sites... some of them are good, some are horribly simple and some are amazing... But if I were a breeder I would hope that people would come and see my kennel/home, talk with me, ask ME questions and not just judge me based on the opinions of lame-ass people who only care to look at a website and decide what is right and wrong.

you base decisions on things that happen years ago... you know no details.. you see 33 girls and freak out... 

I am done with this mess. now I just have to figure out how to cancel my membership to this judgemental group of silliness.

I hope each of you have great dogs and have wonderful healthy lives with them - I love my dogs dearly and wish no ill will towards any of you

when I am ready for a new golden, there will be only ONE kennel that I look to - Golden Creek Kennels.


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## Lover of GOLDENS

Wow...I have never joined a forum before but after coming across such harsh words about the best breeder I have ever came across and believe me, I did my research before deciding to even visit GCK. I am sitting here with my jaw dropped, after reading all of the terrible comments. I made the BEST decision I could have ever made when deciding to purchase a Golden Creek Kennels pup!! I was impressed with Susan and her kennel, from the moment I first visited! When my Skylah was my born, I received pictures EVERY week along with other updates and was able to watch her as she grew,from day one!! When the day FINALLY came that I was able to pick up my Golden, Susan was very informational, and I received a "puppy pack" that had all sorts of information including Skylah's worming records, when her shots were due, and all sorts of other information that if you never had a puppy and had no clue what to do,you would after recieving all of the info. that Susan provided. As a prior Vet. Assistant for 7 1/2 years, I was very impressed with what Susan provided. She was also very concerned, I was staying at the beach for the week that I picked up Skylah and she made sure I understood that even the beach isn't safe from diseases. If she was a breeder that didn't care, she wouldn't have cared what I did with my puppy after I left. Skylah was such a wonderful pup from day one. Never had an accident in her crate when crate training her, she walked on a leash by the second day....I have pictures ....she is now 3 years old and still to this day , a small gentle Giant! Great with kids, other dogs and cats! She is the love of my life and never meets a stranger!!!! And for anyone that jas actually, in fact ever visited a GCK open house, you would see that their are TONS of owners that can say the same, just by seeing for your self. Now that I have met Susan and have Skylah thanks to her, I wouldn't want to get a Golden from anywhere else!!!!


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## DaisyGolden

JakeJessy said:


> Your right, the facts do speak for themselves. 100's of happy families and a few disgruntled customers who, for whatever reason decided their lifestyle of owning a Golden didn't fit anymore. So, since we're keeping score, how dogs too many??? And who decides that?


 
Hundreds of families. My point exactly. It would be almost impossible for a breeder who is doing everything the right way to do so with so many dogs. The foster program thing is just another way to have more puppies and make more money. Most breeders want to raise the puppies they sell themselves. If you don't think this is a puppy mill then what do you think one looks like? They aren't all dirty cages and sick dogs. Sometimes a puppy mill is nice looking and has pretty pictures on their website but they are only in it for the money. Just wondering did the parents of your dogs have all their health clearances? Hips, elbows, eyes and heart.


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## DNL2448

alsublett said:


> ask about cancer in the line... hips.... eyes....
> 
> I would ask questions and look at papers before seeing the little boogers... It is hard because once you smell that puppy breath and are kisses by those little sweet tongues... well, all of the paper work will not matter... you will have a new child!
> 
> Good Luck - can't wait to see the pictures of your new little one! Keep us updated on names and pics!


 
I'm glad you are happy with your dogs. I was just wondering if you followed your own advice when you purchased a dog from GCK?


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## alsublett

Yes, I did - I asked a lot of questions. I got all the answers I needed and was thrilled.

Im done

yall have a great night - enjoy your bashing - this is a waste of time.


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## DaisyGolden

DNL2448 said:


> I'm glad you are happy with your dogs. I was just wondering if you followed your own advice when you purchased a dog from GCK?


 
I think that your website is a perfect example of what people should be looking for when getting a puppy. You have the links to k9 data and the clearances and everything. I'm so glad there are good breeders like you out there. If anyone wants to see an example of what you should be looking for look at www.windyridgegoldens.com


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## JakeJessy

DNL2448 said:


> They are all over the place! The air is thick with them today.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, your join date is October 2010, so not a year.


Actually it's much longer than a year. When I got Jake almost two years ago, I joined but then rejoined under JakeJessy in October. I was so happy with Jake that I had to get another one.


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## DNL2448

Quoting: I think that your website is a perfect example of what people should be looking for when getting a puppy. You have the links to k9 data and the clearances and everything. I'm so glad there are good breeders like you out there. If anyone wants to see an example of what you should be looking for look at www.windyridgegoldens.com 

Thank you! However I do not consider myself a true breeder. Breeze's litter was the first one I have raised in 16 years. My 'dog partner' has had two litters. Her girl is close to receiving her outstanding dam designation. I also hope that Breeze will get hers with Tags litter.


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## JakeJessy

Bella's Mama said:


> Are we up to 4 brand new posters defending GCK?? At my other, much less kinder boards, I spy a troll....


Could easily be 400 before you know it.


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## DNL2448

JakeJessy said:


> Could easily be 400 before you know it.


And therein lies the problem.


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## Rainheart

Here is the problem:

Log In | Facebook

She is posting on her forum trying to get people to defend her.


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## merrittagoldenforum

Nearly every breeder has had customer service issues at some point. That does not mean the breeder is a poor breeder. And lack of comments in a website such as this does not mean a breeder is a good breeder either. I do know Golden Creek Kennels personally, and have had a very good experience. I can assure you that there is no way they would have the dog put down had you returned him to GCK. If you still have an issue, I would encourage you to call them back again.


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## DaisyGolden

DNL2448 said:


> Quoting: I think that your website is a perfect example of what people should be looking for when getting a puppy. You have the links to k9 data and the clearances and everything. I'm so glad there are good breeders like you out there. If anyone wants to see an example of what you should be looking for look at www.windyridgegoldens.com
> 
> Thank you! However I do not consider myself a true breeder. Breeze's litter was the first one I have raised in 16 years. My 'dog partner' has had two litters. Her girl is close to receiving her outstanding dam designation. I also hope that Breeze will get hers with Tags litter.


I used you as an example because some people don't know what clearances the puppies parents should have and don't really know what to look for on a website and your website shows all of that. The fact that you don't consider yourself a breeder and you have all of that info and clearances for your dogs shows that someone who does consider themself to be a breeder should definitely have all of that info about their dogs.


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## Sally's Mom

merrittagoldenforum, seriously, customer service issues? Is a golden puppy a product to deal with thru customer service?


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## Pointgold

merrittagoldenforum said:


> Nearly every breeder has had customer service issues at some point. That does not mean the breeder is a poor breeder. And lack of comments in a website such as this does not mean a breeder is a good breeder either. I do know Golden Creek Kennels personally, and have had a very good experience. I can assure you that there is no way they would have the dog put down had you returned him to GCK. If you still have an issue, I would encourage you to call them back again.


 
AKC doesn't suspend breeders willy nilly or without reason.


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## merrittagoldenforum

You know guys, if people were being negative about you or one of your friends, you'd want to be defended as well. There's nothing wrong with asking for support. This forum is anonymous, so there's no way for any breeder that gets a negative comment to respond to it other than to post in the forum.


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## DaisyGolden

Sally's Mom said:


> merrittagoldenforum, seriously, customer service issues? Is a golden puppy a product to deal with thru customer service?


Well maybe if they have problems with their puppies they can exchange them for a toaster.


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## tippykayak

Can we stop the charged words for a moment on both sides?

There are at least two issues that crop up in the thread that are not a matter of opinion, and I'm frankly curious about them.

One, this breeder was suspended. Does anybody know why? And if you do, can you provide supporting documentation?

Two, this breeder has been accused of having no clearances on breeding dogs or incomplete clearances. Is this true or false?

If you're defending GCK, can you please let us know if your puppy came from parents who are cleared—according to the GRCA code of ethics—for hips, elbows, hearts, and eyes? And that those clearances are registered in the appropriate databases? Hips and elbows are automatic with OFA; CERFs for eyes have to be mailed; heart clearances have to be registered with OFA or provided on paper.

I personally feel that 33 bitches is obviously far too large an operation for my comfort, and that it would definitely fall within my definition of High Volume Breeder. So they'd never in a million years get my money. But the even bigger problem would be the breeding of uncleared dogs.

So instead of just attacking and defending GCK, let's post some facts. Those defending, how do you feel about the fact that GCK does not fit the GRCA's definition of a good breeder? Don't you care?


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## Sally's Mom

Just PM me, I will tell you who I am.. oh right, you can't because you do not have enough posts.... The bottom line is that when you have a website,and you post dogs, pedigrees, and boasts, you open yourself up to public scrutiny....


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## merrittagoldenforum

So this is my last comment. Sally's Mom... I apologize if I made it sound like I mean "customer service" like a golden is a cell phone. That is definitely not the case. What I do mean is that in the original post, it sounded like there was a call after eight years to a breeder and then no return call after that. So, if that was the case, then I was trying to encourage folks to try again. 

And again, because this entire forum is anonymous, none of us know who posted the original comment and if it is true. Someone commented that when positive remarks are made, they are often by a breeder posing as a forum member. Same thing can be true for negative comments where other breeders are posting negative comments.

Best thing to do if you want a precious golden retriever puppy is to use word of mouth referrals from real live people who actually have golden retrievers. Go to the kennels multiple times and then make your decision.


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## Pointgold

merrittagoldenforum said:


> You know guys, if people were being negative about you or one of your friends, you'd want to be defended as well. There's nothing wrong with asking for support. This forum is anonymous, so there's no way for any breeder that gets a negative comment to respond to it other than to post in the forum.


A truly responsible breeder's dogs will be found in the OFA and CERF data bases. 
Ms. Harb is very noticeably not listing dogs in the K9 Data pedigree database, nor does she list dogs on her site by their full names, and dogs with her prefix are noticebly not appearing in the OFA databases. 
As many hundreds of dogs as she has manufactured, that speaks volumes. PR and marketing may be well done, but the things that make a breeder reputable and responsible are sorely lacking.


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## tippykayak

merrittagoldenforum said:


> And again, because this entire forum is anonymous, none of us know who posted the original comment and if it is true. Someone commented that when positive remarks are made, they are often by a breeder posing as a forum member. Same thing can be true for negative comments where other breeders are posting negative comments.


The problem with your logic is that none of the negative posters here are in any competition with GKC. They don't compete in any kind of sport or conformation right? So there's no competition there. And are any of the breeders who posted anywhere near GKC's location? Probably not, so no competition there. There are also a bunch of us who aren't breeders, so how do you explain our motivation?

I'm afraid that most if not all of the negative comments are motivated by genuine care for dogs and good breeding practices. Take a minute and see if GKC actually follows those practices.




merrittagoldenforum said:


> Best thing to do if you want a precious golden retriever puppy is to use word of mouth referrals from real live people who actually have golden retrievers. Go to the kennels multiple times and then make your decision.


That's quite wrong. Anybody who sells enough dogs will rack up enough satisfied customers to generate referrals. Referrals are nice, but the real question is whether the breeder fits the definition of a good breeder, and the GRCA's definition is a darn good one. Never read it before? Check here.


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## Pointgold

merrittagoldenforum said:


> So this is my last comment. Sally's Mom... I apologize if I made it sound like I mean "customer service" like a golden is a cell phone. That is definitely not the case. What I do mean is that in the original post, it sounded like there was a call after eight years to a breeder and then no return call after that. So, if that was the case, then I was trying to encourage folks to try again.
> 
> And again, because this entire forum is anonymous, none of us know who posted the original comment and if it is true. Someone commented that when positive remarks are made, they are often by a breeder posing as a forum member. Same thing can be true for negative comments where other breeders are posting negative comments.
> 
> Best thing to do if you want a precious golden retriever puppy is to use word of mouth referrals from real live people who actually have golden retrievers. Go to the kennels multiple times and then make your decision.


 
Anonymity works both ways. And the many reputable breeders here on this site have no problems whatsoever making the health clearances, registered names, etc, of their dogs available and public.
A fancy kennel means little when the dogs in it have no clearances.


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## ragtym

Two of GCK's sires:

Silas - Fly Away From Mariannehouse - Pedigree: Fly Away From Mariannehouse - no verifiable hip, elbow, eye, or heart clearances.

Maverick - not listed but still being used as a sire - Silvermine GCK's Maverick - Pedigree: Silvermine Gck's Maverick - no verifiable hip, elbow, eye or heart clearances.


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## tippykayak

ragtym said:


> Two of GCK's sires:
> 
> Silas - Fly Away From Mariannehouse - Pedigree: Fly Away From Mariannehouse - no verifiable hip, elbow, eye, or heart clearances.
> 
> Maverick - not listed but still being used as a sire - Silvermine GCK's Maverick - Pedigree: Silvermine Gck's Maverick - no verifiable hip, elbow, eye or heart clearances.


First of all, thanks for checking some of their dogs for clearances and demonstrating that no, GCK does not fit the GRCA's definition of a good breeder.

Also, did you notice that they use a Silvermine dog? That connects them to a whole web of HVB's we've discussed many times. A large group of high volume outfits who don't do clearances but rely on marketing instead of good practices.


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## Melinda

*Come on people*



kfayard said:


> Okay...now it is a little ironic?? Don't ya think? 2 people that just joined TODAY would make their very 1st post in the THIS thread!!


We love our Goldens and have all gotten them from Susan, we all talk on Facebook so I don't see it as ironic. Wouldn't you go to whatever forum is blasting your breeder if you feel you have the most wonderful dog from her? What I see that is ironic is that all the people on this site who blast the first time posters for defending their breeder, while the initial complaint came from a first time poster as well. I don't care that you feel it necessary to protect your site from the breeders who may or may not be posting under an alias; what I care about is that you guys are so hypocritical! It is sad really. 

We all know that some people just are not good at training and keeping up with the consistency necessary. And sometimes there are just bad dogs, not everyone can be sweet and precious like mine, who by the way is from Golden Creek Kennels. They have an open house every month and if her breed was coming out aggressive then they would not be able to play like they do. Every time I go there are between 15 and 20 out playing in an open area with no leashes.


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## HiTideGoldens

It is amazing to me how naive people can be. She doesn't do the BARE MINIMUM by doing verifiable hip, elbow clearances. Nor does it appear that she is doing heart and eye clearances. All these are done by reputable golden retriever breeders, in accordance with the recommendations in the GRCA Code of Ethics, to reduce health problems that have plagued the breed and to do everything they can to ensure their dogs and puppies are healthy. 

There is no doubt you love your dogs, but don't come on here and blindly defend someone who isn't doing things right.


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## DNL2448

Have you actually read through this thread? I seriously doubt it, or you would have or should have some questions for you _wonderful_ breeder. Yes, you are entirely correct that one or two bad dogs do not make the whole lot bad, however your precious leader is NOT doing everything in her power to ensure that YOU and others who have purchased her "_product_" are getting the background assurances of healthy dogs. 

If you were to buy say a toaster (it was mentioned earlier so I'll continue to use it as an example) would you buy one that is UL approved, or one that was thrown together by some back yard entrepreneur who doesn't follow established guidelines? 

Again, I/we ask, please post your dogs pedigree and clearances. I don't doubt you love your dog, that has never been the issue. And I'm sure she has produced in the several hundred (which in itself is not a good thing) dogs she has sold, that they are sweet puppies. Just how long will they be healthy???


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## mylissyk

Melinda said:


> We love our Goldens and have all gotten them from Susan, we all talk on Facebook so I don't see it as ironic. Wouldn't you go to whatever forum is blasting your breeder if you feel you have the most wonderful dog from her? What I see that is ironic is that all the people on this site who blast the first time posters for defending their breeder, while the initial complaint came from a first time poster as well. I don't care that you feel it necessary to protect your site from the breeders who may or may not be posting under an alias; what I care about is that you guys are so hypocritical! It is sad really.
> 
> We all know that some people just are not good at training and keeping up with the consistency necessary. And sometimes there are just bad dogs, not everyone can be sweet and precious like mine, who by the way is from Golden Creek Kennels. They have an open house every month and if her breed was coming out aggressive then they would not be able to play like they do. Every time I go there are between 15 and 20 out playing in an open area with no leashes.


What the people on this board have an issue with, among other things, is that GCK does not do the testing and clearances as recommended by the GRCA for Goldens. That leaves puppy buyers with the very real possibility of getting a puppy with severe medical issues that could have been avoided if the breeder was testing the breeding dogs and not using dogs that did not pass.

I'm glad you have had a good experience, and your dog is wonderful and healthy. We'd love to see pictures of him and you are welcome to stay on the forum and join the discussion. Maybe if you read through some of the breeding discussions you will understand the concerns raised.


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## Melinda

goldenjackpuppy said:


> It is amazing to me how naive people can be. She doesn't do the BARE MINIMUM by doing verifiable hip, elbow clearances. Nor does it appear that she is doing heart and eye clearances. All these are done by reputable golden retriever breeders, in accordance with the recommendations in the GRCA Code of Ethics, to ensure their dogs and puppies are healthy.
> 
> There is no doubt you love your dogs, but don't come on here and blindly defend someone who isn't doing things right.



How do you know? Have you asked? you are blindly judging as well.


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## tippykayak

Melinda said:


> We love our Goldens and have all gotten them from Susan, we all talk on Facebook so I don't see it as ironic. Wouldn't you go to whatever forum is blasting your breeder if you feel you have the most wonderful dog from her? What I see that is ironic is that all the people on this site who blast the first time posters for defending their breeder, while the initial complaint came from a first time poster as well. I don't care that you feel it necessary to protect your site from the breeders who may or may not be posting under an alias; what I care about is that you guys are so hypocritical! It is sad really.
> 
> We all know that some people just are not good at training and keeping up with the consistency necessary. And sometimes there are just bad dogs, not everyone can be sweet and precious like mine, who by the way is from Golden Creek Kennels. They have an open house every month and if her breed was coming out aggressive then they would not be able to play like they do. Every time I go there are between 15 and 20 out playing in an open area with no leashes.


Do you understand that the concern here is not that one person has an ill-behaved dog, but rather that this breeder is not in compliance with the Golden Retriever Club of America's Code of Ethics? 

No matter how badly you breed Golden Retrievers, many of them are going to come out lovable and sweet. However, ignoring the CoE vastly increases the chance that these sweet, lovable dogs are going to get painful, debilitating diseases at some point in their lives. That's what people are upset about.

Why are none of GCK's defenders willing to address this concern?


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## mylissyk

Melinda said:


> How do you know? Have you asked? you are blindly judging as well.


We know because there are no test results for her dogs posted on K9Data or OFA, where they would be reported if she was doing clearances.

If you have copies of OFA, hip, heart, eye, and elbow test results for your dogs parents, please share.


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## HiTideGoldens

Melinda said:


> How do you know? Have you asked? you are blindly judging as well.


No, I'm not. If they aren't in the OFA database then she isn't doing OFA clearances or her dogs all have been diagnosed with elbow dysplasia and hip dysplasia and she has declined to release the results.


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## Melinda

mylissyk said:


> What the people on this board have an issue with, among other things, is that GCK does not do the testing and clearances as recommended by the GRCA for Goldens. That leaves puppy buyers with the very real possibility of getting a puppy with severe medical issues that could have been avoided if the breeder was testing the breeding dogs and not using dogs that did not pass.
> 
> I'm glad you have had a good experience, and your dog is wonderful and healthy. We'd love to see pictures of him and you are welcome to stay on the forum and join the discussion. Maybe if you read through some of the breeding discussions you will understand the concerns raised.



I do understand your concerns, my point is that the judging began before anyone really had any kind of evidence. And I still have not seen it.
On top of that it all came from an initial post from a first timer too. It was more like light the pyre we will get the evidence after you are burnt to a crisp.


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## HiTideGoldens

tippykayak said:


> Why are none of GCK's defenders willing to address this concern?


I suspect they have no idea what the GRCA Code of Ethics is, nor do they have any idea what the OFA database is. It's just very sad that someone can entice people with cute golden puppies to the point where they will blindly defend them.


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## DNL2448

Melinda,

Just for one minute try to see it from our side. Look at your dogs papers. What is the sires name. Do they have just an OFA hip clearance? If you don't know or are unsure, just let us know, and we will show you how to find out. 

We would love to see pictures of your dog. We all love dogs, that is without a doubt. And we don't begrudge you for having one from this person. Just please know that there is another side to the coin.


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## HiTideGoldens

Melinda said:


> I do understand your concerns, my point is that the judging began before anyone really had any kind of evidence. And I still have not seen it.
> On top of that it all came from an initial post from a first timer too. It was more like light the pyre we will get the evidence after you are burnt to a crisp.


I understand this is probably all new to you. And no one is trying to crucify your puppy or you. What are your puppy's sire and dam's registered names or AKC registration numbers. I'll look them up in the OFA database for you. I truly hope they do have clearances.

Or you can do it yourself here: http://www.offa.org/search.html?btnSearch=Advanced+Search Just make sure you select Golden Retriever as the breed and choose whether you are inputting the first part of the dog's name or any part of the name.


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## tippykayak

Melinda said:


> How do you know? Have you asked? you are blindly judging as well.


Clearances are independently verifiable. Members have looked up GCK dogs and found no evidence of clearances. Not a single one of these positive referral posters has posted that their dog's parents had so much as a hip x-ray.

So are we incorrect in the claim that GCK is not compliant with the GRCA's CoE? If so, please set the record straight by posting your dog's ancestry and evidence of his ancestor's clearances.


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## 2Goldenboys

*Golden Creek Kennels is great!*

Yes, I am new to this forum. Yes, I am defending Golden Creek Kennels and Susan Harb.
I am the proud Mom of two male golden retrievers from Golden Creek Kennels. Back in November 2007, our family's golden retriever, Wojo, passed away due to kidney disease. We purchased him from a local family who had one AKC male golden and one AKC female golden that they had bred. We loved Wojo very much and were sad to lose him at 9 years of age. Our family felt incomplete without him. After a period of mourning, we decided it was time for a puppy to join our family. After much exploring, we decided on Golden Creek Kennels. We contacted Susan and she provided lots of information on the dogs at Golden Creek. There were no puppies available at the time so Susan asked us to complete a questionnaire describing our family so that she could match our family with the right puppy from the sire and dam who would best fit into our family. After the litter of puppies was born, Susan emailed weekly updates to us with pictures and details on how the puppies were doing. When we picked up Mogul to take him home, Susan provided us with a book containing pictures of Mogul's mom and litter mates. It also contained the sales agreement which guarantees the good health of the puppy. The dog is guaranteed against hip dysplasia, heart defects, and eye cataracts and will be replaced if diagnosed within the first 26 months of life. The buyer of the puppy also has to sign an agreement stating that he/she will provide adequate and proper veterinary care throughout the dog's lifetime including not allowing the dog to become obese. A fact sheet is also included in the book with the puppy's date of birth, litter size, immunization and worming record, and instructions not to socialize your puppy in public until they are fully immunized at 16 weeks of age. The book also includes detailed instructions on bringing the puppy into your family, crate training, house training, leash training, and puppy proofing. A pedigree sheet displaying 4 generations was also provided. Mogul had also been chipped and a stuffed animal that had been with Mogul's mom and litter mates was also provided by Susan. We have NEVER had any problems with Mogul and were so happy with him that we decided that we would like for Mogul to have a playmate. We knew that Golden Creek had a foster program and thought that would be a great way for us to include another dog in our family. We checked Golden Creek's website to see if there were any male dogs available that we could foster. As noted during the many discussions on Golden Creek, there are far more females than males, which of course makes sense considering a female dog can only have so many litters and maintain her health. We were very excited to find out that there was a male dog available to foster. His name is Kirby. He is now two years old and is part of the foster program at Golden Creek. Kirby is also a wonderful dog. He is one of the most affectionate and loving dogs I've ever met. We have been very happy being part of Golden Creek's foster program. We care for Kirby in our home and provide him with food, love, and toys. Susan provides all vet care including vaccinations,heartworm preventative and flea and tick medicine. Kirby is still young so he has not had too many visits to the kennel for breeding. Kirby has been a great addition to our family.
Susan and Crawford are wonderful people that love all of their dogs. I hate to see them attacked on this forum because they do not deserve it. I am outraged that anyone would accuse them of being a puppy mill. If you would like a description of what a puppy mill is, I suggest you take a look at the following website: puppymill
The kennel is always clean. The dogs always have food and water. The dogs have an enormous fenced in yard to run in. 
If you still have doubts about Golden Creek and Susan Harb, I suggest you go to an open house at Golden Creek which is held once a month, March through November. Seeing is believing.


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## CarolinaCasey

You can lead a horse to water...

2GoldenBoys- If your boy Kirby is going to be in their breeding program, what kinds of health checks has he had completed thus far? What is his AKC name?


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## HiTideGoldens

Clean kennels, a big yard, food and water DO NOT EQUAL hip, elbow, heart and eye clearances on all breeding stock in compliance with the GRCA Code of Ethics.


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## Melinda

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I understand this is probably all new to you. And no one is trying to crucify your puppy or you. What are your puppy's sire and dam's registered names or AKC registration numbers. I'll look them up in the OFA database for you. I truly hope they do have clearances.
> 
> Or you can do it yourself here: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals Just make sure you select Golden Retriever as the breed and choose whether you are inputting the first part of the dog's name or any part of the name.


I will find out, I only know their nicknames; then we can see. It just makes me mad when people are crucified with no evidence. 

Please stop treating people like they idiots. You can get your point across without the belittling them.


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## HiTideGoldens

Melinda said:


> I will find out, I only know their nicknames; then we can see. It just makes me mad when people are crucified with no evidence.


Just look at the AKC registration to find them.


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## DNL2448

Are they all so blind?

WE KNOW YOU LOVE YOUR DOGS, and THEY ARE GREAT. But have they had even one clearance??????????? 

Just one, I dare any of you GCK cheerleaders to post JUST ONE clearance!!! And, where is the fearless leader to speak for herself? It's like a cult following...amazing.


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## tippykayak

Melinda said:


> I will find out, I only know their nicknames; then we can see. It just makes me mad when people are crucified with no evidence.


But we do have evidence. We looked up some of the dogs. No clearances. So let's see if yours did. If you don't come back, we'll have our answer.


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## DNL2448

Melinda said:


> I will find out, I only know their nicknames; then we can see.


You don't know the registered name of your own dog? :doh:


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## CarolinaCasey

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Clean kennels, a big yard, food and water DO NOT EQUAL hip, elbow, heart and eye clearances on all breeding stock.


:thanks:

By the sheer number of breeding dogs and the size of the kennel, this is a business- not for the betterment of the golden retriever breed. You can't argue that. 

Golden Creek Kennel does not participate in any dog venues. It is easy to become kennel blind when you do not have anyone independently critiquing your stock. 

Foster programs disgust me. "Here, take this intact animal, raise it, train in, love it as your own, but I am going to breed it until as often as I can, sell the puppies for cash, and then ship her back to her caretakers. If she dies in whelp, my heart won't be broken- it will be those poor suckers. ":no: I honestly have compassion for you and the others. You were unknowingly duped by a predator who preys upon people in grief. It isn't your fault, it is Susan Harb's. Shame on her. I promise that if you post your sweet pet's names, we can prove it to you. I know it might be hard to hear, but it will be in stone.


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## Melinda

tippykayak said:


> But we do have evidence. We looked up some of the dogs. No clearances. So let's see if yours did. If you don't come back, we'll have our answer.


Did you find their actual registered names or nicknames that they have? Just curious


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## Shalva

these people honestly don't get it.... 

irresponsible breeders can be nice
irresponsible breeders can be clean 
irresponsible breeders can like their dogs.... but that doesn't change that they are still not following the code of ethics... 
it doesn't change that they are not doing health clearances on their dogs... 
it doesn't change that they are for all practical purposes a commercial breeder using their dogs to support their living... 

the thing is that this is not about disgruntled owners... it happens... even to the best breeders ... 

this is however about a breeder who is not doing right by the breed... the issue is that it would seem by the comments here that you think that the things that this breeder has done with her emails, and pictures, and all of that are something special... 

ya know ... most reputable breeders who do health clearances, who make their dogs prove they are worth breeding and are not supporting themselves off the backs of their dogs do all of the things you have mentioned... I know I do.... 

the things is while this breeder complains and complains about how mean we are to her... there is an easy solution and I am sure that the majority would lay off.... 

get the clearances done... 
heart cant be done before 1 year of age
eyes get done every year
hips and elbows can't be certified before age 2 and they must be sent in to the orthopedic foundation for animals where a panel of specialized vets look at the xrays and issue the clearance... 
your own personal vet, my own personal vet CAN't certify hips and elbows... 
PennHip can be done earlier 
honestly getting us to back off is very simple very easy 
the problem is that on her own website she advertises puppies sired by dogs that just are not old enough to have clearances done... so her own website actually tells us that these dogs don't have clearances. 
follow the code of ethics established by the Golden Retriever Club of America

if the clearances are done then make it so we can verify that they are done... 

so far every person that has come here in defense of this breeder has told us how nice their dog is and how they like her and she is nice and her kennel is clean (my dogs don't live in a kennel but whatever) but every single one of her minions has avoided the basic issue of health clearances... so what can we assume... that you all either have no idea what we are talking about or these clearances don't exist... 

nobody has addressed this issue... 

if this breeder is so wonderful and you want to defend her then great... I am glad you are happy with your dog... but most of here are doing are darnedest to protect this breed from those who are not looking out for their best interest... and if she is honestly trying to help the breed and better the breed then great... but there has been no evidence in support of that as of yet. 

giving us registered names and clearance information in no way allows us to trace you if that is what you are concerned about... 

go to 
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals 
look around 
do a search type in milbrose 
and those are my dogs and dogs related to mine that have had clearances done... as you can see there is no way to trace me... its just information on the dog... 

so if she really is responsible then help us to verify that and we will lay off.... 

and if these health clearances don't exist... then that tells you alot about your breeder regardless of how "nice" she is.... and there is no defense for not doing basic health clearances


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## tippykayak

2Goldenboys said:


> The dog is guaranteed against hip dysplasia, heart defects, and eye cataracts and will be replaced if diagnosed within the first 26 months of life. The buyer of the puppy also has to sign an agreement stating that he/she will provide adequate and proper veterinary care throughout the dog's lifetime including not allowing the dog to become obese.


If your dog's parents didn't have hip clearances, he's at approximately double the risk of developing hip dysplasia. I'm sure, once you've had him for two years, that you won't mind exchanging him if he develops it.

Do you understand that this is about whether or not the breeder is compliant with the Golden Retriever Club of America's Code of Ethics? About whether the dogs are being given the best possible shot at a long, healthy life free from crippling disease?

You're right that GCK doesn't fit the common definition of puppy mill, but they do fit the common definition of a high volume breeder and they don't appear to do any clearances on their breeding dogs.

I suggest you read this page at the GRCA's website and ask yourself of GCK fits the definition of a good breeder.

And will you do what some of us have done and post your dog's parents' clearances? Or at least acknowledge that they don't have them and that your dog was not properly bred according to the GRCA's CoE?


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## HiTideGoldens

Straight from the GCK website, there is a boy born in March 2010 (Banks) that has been used for breeding - there is a puppy by him available. Annie was also bred before she was 2 years old (her birthday is August 15, 2009), since there is a puppy out of her available too. Given that dogs must be 2 years old before they can have final hip and elbow clearances, these dogs certainly cannot have them. I don't even need the registered names to know that.


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## Melinda

I wish you people would stop treating everyone like idiots! The more I see from you the more I would never take your advice on anything except how to throw someone down in the dirt and step on them...then maybe kick them just for effect


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## HiTideGoldens

Melinda said:


> I wish you people would stop treating everyone like idiots! The more I see from you the more I would never take your advice on anything except how to throw someone down in the dirt and step on them...then maybe kick them just for effect


You need to understand....we all LOVE this breed. It upsets a lot of us to see people take advantage of nice people (puppy buyers like you) by selling them puppies out of parents who do not have health clearances. Hip, elbow, heart and eye clearances are the bare minimum of what she should be doing in considering whether or not to breed a litter.


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## 2Goldenboys

It is truly amazing to me how people who claim to love Golden Retrievers, dogs so full of love, can be so hateful, cruel, and full of vitriol.


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## HiTideGoldens

2Goldenboys said:


> It is truly amazing to me how people who claim to love Golden Retrievers, dogs so full of love, can be so hateful, cruel, and full of vitriol.


By pointing out a lack of health clearances? Please, show us where we are wrong. I sincerely hope we are.


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## tippykayak

Melinda said:


> Did you find their actual registered names or nicknames that they have? Just curious


Yes. Information about two dogs was posted two pages earlier in this very thread. 

I suggest you read the thread before you continue to defend this breeder.

Just so you know, somebody under the username "P Wernet" has added some information as of last night to the entry for Fly Away From Mariannehouse that shows some clearances. It says there are "OFA" clearances, but if you look up the dog by AKC# on the actual OFA site, there's no listing.

k9data is an open registry that depend on people to be honest, so in the case of dishonest people, you have to double check claims of OFA clearances. It says "OFA 0/0 (FCI)" (which is gobbledygook, so far as I know) on the elbows line, but there's nothing listed in the OFA site for this dog.


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## DNL2448

Here's Breeze's Clearance info:

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

and her pedigree:

http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=252202

Here is Dooley's:

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

and his pedigree:

http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=252203


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## Melinda

goldenjackpuppy said:


> You need to understand....we all LOVE this breed. It upsets a lot of us to see people take advantage of nice people (puppy buyers like you) by selling them puppies out of parents who do not have health clearances. Hip, elbow, heart and eye clearances are the bare minimum of what she should be doing in considering whether or not to breed a litter.


I do understand that you love the dogs. I was about to follow you advice and look for myself and they you had to keep up the "let me belittle this people routine." I guess you thought it would get your point across. All it has done is make me think you are just here to "hear" your own voice. Great you took a stand. So happy for you...why would I take any advice from someone who cannot even talk to me like another human being?


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## tippykayak

2Goldenboys said:


> It is truly amazing to me how people who claim to love Golden Retrievers, dogs so full of love, can be so hateful, cruel, and full of vitriol.


Which better exemplifies love of dogs?

Trusting a breeder with a clean kennel and a few good referrals by giving her your money to produce more dogs who have double the risk of hip and elbow dysplasia?

Or trying to educate people about the fact that there are some relatively inexpensive things a breeder can do to give dogs a much better shot at a long, healthy life free from pain?

I cannot excuse any mean comments on here, but even the meanest are motivated by knowledge of what it takes to breed a dog properly, knowledge that we are trying to get you people to read up on.


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## tippykayak

Melinda said:


> I do understand that you love the dogs. I was about to follow you advice and look for myself and they you had to keep up the "let me belittle this people routine." I guess you thought it would get your point across. All it has done is make me think you are just here to "hear" your own voice. Great you took a stand. So happy for you...why would I take any advice from someone who cannot even talk to me like another human being?


I'm sorry people aren't giving you the message in the nicest possible manner, but what do you think about the substance of the message? Are you realizing that you've made a mistake in giving your money a breeder that doesn't fit the GRCA's standards of a good breeder?


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## CarolinaCasey

tippykayak said:


> Yes. Information about two dogs was posted two pages earlier in this very thread.
> 
> I suggest you read the thread before you continue to defend this breeder.
> 
> Just so you know, somebody under the username "P Wernet" has added some inaccurate information as of last night to make it look like Fly Away From Mariannehouse has clearances. It says there are "OFA" clearances, but if you look up the dog by AKC# on the actual OFA site, there's no listing.
> 
> k9data is an open registry that depend on people to be honest, so in the case of dishonest people, you have to double check claims of OFA clearances. Apparently "P Wernet" doesn't know this. So when he or she added "OFA 0/0 (FCI)" (which is gobbledygook) to the elbows line, he or she is either completely misinformed or intentionally lying to falsify clearances.


I have seen this person add tons of dogs to K9data, usually missing clearances, dogs that haven't cleared OFA, etc. I don't think this was a malicious act... but I'd be interested to hear the explanation for those random #'s. If you search Wernet on K9data-- iit's someone who is active in dogs, conformation and obedience.


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## HiTideGoldens

Melinda said:


> I do understand that you love the dogs. I was about to follow you advice and look for myself and they you had to keep up the "let me belittle this people routine." I guess you thought it would get your point across. All it has done is make me think you are just here to "hear" your own voice. Great you took a stand. So happy for you...why would I take any advice from someone who cannot even talk to me like another human being?


Please look for yourself. Don't let my frustration with another poster (it wasn't directed at you) prevent you from checking on your own puppy. You can also read the GRCA's Code of Ethics on what should be done prior to breeding a litter: Golden Retriever Club of America - The GRCA Club


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## tippykayak

Melinda said:


> I wish you people would stop treating everyone like idiots! The more I see from you the more I would never take your advice on anything except how to throw someone down in the dirt and step on them...then maybe kick them just for effect


Just because some posters are insulting, it doesn't make them wrong. I wish they'd be a bit more moderate in their wording too, but it's not an excuse to ignore the substance of the problems they are raising.

There's a reason the GRCA discourages people from giving their money to HVBs, and there's an even more important reason they discourage people from giving money to breeders who don't do the bare minimum to clear their breeding dogs. Why not respond to that?


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## Melinda

tippykayak said:


> I'm sorry people aren't giving you the message in the nicest possible manner, but what do you think about the substance of the message? Are you realizing that you've made a mistake in giving your money a breeder that doesn't fit the GRCA's standards of a good breeder?


1st you have not provided me any proof
2nd remember the kick I talked about earlier...there you are again...kick...kick...is it bloody enough for you?


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## tippykayak

CarolinaCasey said:


> I have seen this person add tons of dogs to K9data, usually missing clearances, etc. I don't think this was a malicious act... because if you search Wernet on K9data-- it's Ragtym. Hopefully she'll check in.


Oh, whoops! That's weird, though. Perhaps she can check in and explain why the elbows line has both OFA and FCI references in it even though there's nothing on the OFA site under that AKC #.


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## tippykayak

Melinda said:


> 1st you have not provided me any proof
> 2nd remember the kick I talked about earlier...there you are again...kick...kick...is it bloody enough for you?


Read the thread. There are two breeding dogs from GCK who lack full clearances. It was posted on page 11, and then I reposted it for you on page 14. What other proof did you want?

People have also repeatedly pointed out that any dog bred under the age of two, by definition, cannot have full clearances, and two dogs were referenced, also in this thread, that had puppies well under 2.

Maybe it's easier to focus on how the people in the thread aren't nice than to confront the fact that your choice of breeders was ill-informed? I don't think you're an idiot, but I do think you were fooled by good marketing because you never had a chance to see what the GRCA has to say.


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## Melinda

tippykayak said:


> Read the thread. There are two breeding dogs from GCK who lack full clearances. It was posted on page 11, and then I reposted it for you. What other proof did you want?
> 
> Maybe it's easier to focus on how the people in the thread aren't nice than to confront the fact that your choice of breeders was ill-informed? I don't think you're an idiot, but I do think you were fooled by good marketing because you never had a chance to see what the GRCA has to say.



nope just focusing on who I would rather take advice and it's not looking like you...kick


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## Shalva

ok Melinda 
what proof do you want??? 

you go on and on about no proof 
we are happy to provide that proof but are limited in the information that we can gather... 

we did provide proof that at least two of the dogs she is breeding have no clearances... that proof is way back in this thread but ok thats not enough... 

we would be happy to check on your own personal dogs and provide proof one way or the other there but you refuse to provide the information we need to check... so ok 

then there is the proof on her own website that shows her advertising a boy as a sire who is not yet aged two so can't have permanent clearances... but ok if that is not proof enough to have an admission directly from the horses mouth... 

so ok... 
you tell us... 
what proof do you want???? 
what proof would show you that your breeder is not being responsible....??? 

you don't like the proof that we have shown you so far... so what proof would you like?


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## tippykayak

Melinda said:


> nope just focusing on who I would rather take advice and it's not looking like you...kick


Then don't take it from me. Take it from the GRCA, the organization whose main purpose is the protection of the dogs.


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## Mssjnnfer

Melinda said:


> 1st you have not provided me any proof
> 2nd remember the kick I talked about earlier...there you are again...kick...kick...is it bloody enough for you?


How do you think he is kicking you? All of Tippy's posts have been nice... 

Why is everyone dancing around the questions?


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## DNL2448

Melinda,

Look, I'm sorry if I seem to be a bit over the top. I just hold this breed near and dear to my heart and I hate seeing what some people do to jeopardize its health and well being. Getting clearances does not guarantee a healthy dog, however it does hedge the bet so to speak when there are generations of clearances in the dogs background. That is what we are "fighting" for. Do this simple thing and everyone one wins including the dogs and future puppies and owners. You seem to be the most reasonable of the recent members, and are willing to try. Please don't let me or others run you off. Please use this forum to you and your dogs benefit.


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## LibertyME

GRCA = Golden Retriever Club of America
COE - Code of Ethics

GRCA has a specific Code of Ethics for those breeding Golden Retrievers.
The COE is there for a reason.....just ask anyone that has had a Golden die suddenly of SAS or go blind from PRA or spent 10,000 dollars having hips or elbows repaired.

Do you OWN the dog you are fostering?
If so, as a person that is now (like it or not) a cog in the wheel of a breeding program - You are tying your name & reputation to GCK.

As a person so invested....
You can take you dog to a veterinarian (or orthopedist) and request to have OFA xrays of the stud dogs hips and elbows. Then send them in to be read by three board certified orthopedists and the results will be publish in the database. Pas or fail...you will have contributed to the database that will someday...hopefully eliminate dysplasia.

You can take your dog to any CERF (Canine Eye Registry Foundation) clinic and have his eyes examined by a board certified ophthalmologist.

You can take your dog to a board certified canine cardiologist and have his heart examined by Echocardiogram and submit the results to OFA.

All of the above tests can be done for less then the cost of one puppy that your dog will sire....

Isnt it worth at least that much to know that the dogs your dog will sire....will have the best shot at a healthy life as you can offer?

*You are either part of the problem or part of the solution.*


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## DNL2448

Golden Retriever Club of America Code of Ethics, just so you don't have to click a link...

*RESPONSIBILITIES AS A BREEDER: *
GRCA members who breed Golden Retrievers are encouraged to maintain the purpose of the breed, and are expected to demonstrate honesty and fairness in dealing with other owners and breeders, purchasers of dogs and the general public. 
Owners of breeding animals shall provide appropriate documentation to all concerned regarding the health of dogs involved in a breeding or sale, including reports of examinations, such as those applying to hips, eyes, hearts and elbows. If any such examinations have not been performed on a dog, this should be stated.
Breeders should understand and acknowledge that they may need to take back, or assist in finding a new home for, any dog they produce at any time in its life, if requested to do so. Members who breed should sell puppies, permit stud service, and/or lease any stud dogs or brood bitches only to individuals who give satisfactory evidence that they will give proper care and attention to the animals concerned, and who may be expected generally to act within the intent of the statements of this Code of Ethics. Members are encouraged to use clear, concise written contracts to document the sale of animals, use of stud dogs, and lease arrangements, including the use, when appropriate, of non-breeding agreements and/or Limited Registration. Members should not sell dogs at auction, or to brokers or commercial dealers.​*ADVISORY GUIDELINES: *

Breeding stock should be selected with the objectives of GRCA in mind; that is:
Recognizing that the Golden Retriever breed was developed as a useful gun dog, to encourage the perfection by careful and selective breeding of Golden Retrievers that possess the appearance, structure, soundness, temperament, natural ability and personality that are characterized in the standard of the breed, and to do all possible to advance and promote the perfection of these qualities. (Paraphrased from Article I, Section 2, of the GRCA By-Laws, as amended in 1995.)
GRCA members are expected to follow AKC requirements for record keeping, identification of animals, and registration procedures. Animals selected for breeding should: 
(i) be of temperament typical of the Golden Retriever breed; stable, friendly, trainable, and willing to work. Temperament is of the utmost importance to the breed and must never be neglected; 
(ii) be in good health, including freedom from communicable disease; 
(iii) possess, and make publicly available in an online approved database, the following examination reports in order to verify status concerning possible hip dysplasia, hereditary eye disease, hereditary cardiovascular disease, and elbow dysplasia. Online approved databases include registries under management of veterinary professional associations; registries maintained by non-profit organizations with veterinary staff or advisory boards; and university-based registries under veterinary advisement. Health examination results for U.S. dogs should be recorded in U.S. databases. 
a. Hips – for U.S. dogs, a report from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals or PennHIP at 24 months of age or older. For dogs outside the U.S., a report from a health registry approved by the Golden Retriever club of that country (e.g., Canada - Ontario Veterinary College; Great Britain - BVA/KC Hip Score). A report from the accepted health registry of another country may be used for U.S. dogs that are 24 months of age or older when x-rayed.
b. Eyes – an appropriate report from a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Ophthalmology (ACVO) or from a BVA/KC approved ophthalmologist (Great Britain). For dogs outside the U.S., a report from an ophthalmologist, as recommended by the Golden Retriever club of that country after 1 year of age. Examinations must be done within 12 months of a breeding and reports should be recorded (certified) in an online approved database as described above. 
Dogs that produce offspring should continue to have ophthalmology examinations on a yearly basis for their lifetime, and the examination reports should continue to be recorded in an online approved database if the findings do not prevent recertification. For frozen semen from deceased dogs, either an ophthalmology examination within 18 months of the date of death, or status that was in compliance with the Code of Ethics in effect at the time of the dog’s death, will be considered current. 
c. Hearts – an appropriate report from a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine, Cardiology Specialty, at 12 months of age or older. Reports should be recorded (certified) in an online approved database as described above.
d. Elbows – for U.S. dogs, a report from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals at 24 months of age or older. For dogs outside the U.S., a report from a health registry approved by the Golden Retriever club of that country at 24 months of age or older. A report from the accepted health registry of another country may be used for U.S. dogs that are 24 months of age or older when x-rayed.
Breeders of Goldens in the U.S. who use health registries from other countries should fully reveal their reasons for doing so. Consideration should be given also to other disorders that may have a genetic component, including, but not limited to, epilepsy, hypothyroidism, skin disorders (allergies), and orthopedic disorders such as osteochondritis.
(iv) Assuming that all health and examination reports are favorable, the age of the breeding pair also is of consideration. Generally, a Golden Retriever is not physically and mentally mature until the age of 2 years; an individual dog’s suitability as a breeding animal is difficult to assess until that time.​


----------



## LibertyME

GRCA = Golden Retriever Club of America
COE - Code of Ethics

GRCA has a specific Code of Ethics for those breeding Golden Retrievers.
The COE is there for a reason.....just ask anyone that has had a Golden die suddenly of SAS or go blind from PRA or spent 10,000 dollars having hips or elbows repaired.

As a person that is now (like it or not) a cog in the wheel of a High Volume Breeding program - You are tying your name & reputation to GCK.

As a person so invested....
You can take you dog to a veterinarian (or orthopedist) and request to have OFA xrays of the stud dogs hips and elbows. Then send them in to be read by three board certified orthopedists and the results will be publish in the database. Pas or fail...you will have contributed to the database that will someday...hopefully eliminate dysplasia.

You can take your dog to any CERF (Canine Eye Registry Foundation) clinic and have his eyes examined by a board certified ophthalmologist.

You can take your dog to a board certified canine cardiologist and have his heart examined by Echocardiogram and submit the results to OFA.

All of the above tests can be done for less then the cost of one puppy that your dog will sire....

Isnt it worth at least that much to know that the dogs your dog will sire....will have the best shot at a healthy life as you can offer?

*You are either part of the problem or part of the solution.*



2Goldenboys said:


> Yes, I am new to this forum. Yes, I am defending Golden Creek Kennels and Susan Harb.
> I am the proud Mom of two male golden retrievers from Golden Creek Kennels. Back in November 2007, our family's golden retriever, Wojo, passed away due to kidney disease. We purchased him from a local family who had one AKC male golden and one AKC female golden that they had bred. We loved Wojo very much and were sad to lose him at 9 years of age. Our family felt incomplete without him. After a period of mourning, we decided it was time for a puppy to join our family. After much exploring, we decided on Golden Creek Kennels. We contacted Susan and she provided lots of information on the dogs at Golden Creek. There were no puppies available at the time so Susan asked us to complete a questionnaire describing our family so that she could match our family with the right puppy from the sire and dam who would best fit into our family. After the litter of puppies was born, Susan emailed weekly updates to us with pictures and details on how the puppies were doing. When we picked up Mogul to take him home, Susan provided us with a book containing pictures of Mogul's mom and litter mates. It also contained the sales agreement which guarantees the good health of the puppy. The dog is guaranteed against hip dysplasia, heart defects, and eye cataracts and will be replaced if diagnosed within the first 26 months of life. The buyer of the puppy also has to sign an agreement stating that he/she will provide adequate and proper veterinary care throughout the dog's lifetime including not allowing the dog to become obese. A fact sheet is also included in the book with the puppy's date of birth, litter size, immunization and worming record, and instructions not to socialize your puppy in public until they are fully immunized at 16 weeks of age. The book also includes detailed instructions on bringing the puppy into your family, crate training, house training, leash training, and puppy proofing. A pedigree sheet displaying 4 generations was also provided. Mogul had also been chipped and a stuffed animal that had been with Mogul's mom and litter mates was also provided by Susan. We have NEVER had any problems with Mogul and were so happy with him that we decided that we would like for Mogul to have a playmate. We knew that Golden Creek had a foster program and thought that would be a great way for us to include another dog in our family. We checked Golden Creek's website to see if there were any male dogs available that we could foster. As noted during the many discussions on Golden Creek, there are far more females than males, which of course makes sense considering a female dog can only have so many litters and maintain her health. *We were very excited to find out that there was a male dog available to foster. His name is Kirby. He is now two years old and is part of the foster program at Golden Creek. Kirby is also a wonderful dog. He is one of the most affectionate and loving dogs I've ever met. We have been very happy being part of Golden Creek's foster program. We care for Kirby in our home and provide him with food, love, and toys.* Susan provides all vet care including vaccinations,heartworm preventative and flea and tick medicine. Kirby is still young so he has not had *too many* visits to the kennel for breeding. Kirby has been a great addition to our family.
> Susan and Crawford are wonderful people that love all of their dogs. I hate to see them attacked on this forum because they do not deserve it. I am outraged that anyone would accuse them of being a puppy mill. If you would like a description of what a puppy mill is, I suggest you take a look at the following website: puppymill
> The kennel is always clean. The dogs always have food and water. The dogs have an enormous fenced in yard to run in.
> If you still have doubts about Golden Creek and Susan Harb, I suggest you go to an open house at Golden Creek which is held once a month, March through November. Seeing is believing.


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## DNL2448

And just to dispel the idea that the GRCA isn't as important as AKC. The AKC standard for Golden Retrievers was written by the GRCA.


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## DaisyGolden

Melinda I have nothing against you or your dogs. I don't like to see people taken advantage of that just don't know what to look for when buying a puppy. When I bought my first golden I had no idea what to look for and my breeder wasn't someone i would buy a puppy from now that i know better. The person who needs to provide you with proof of anything is your breeder. Ask her for the info about your pups parents. She should have no problem with it if she has nothing to hide. I have no personal problem with this woman. I don't even know her, but all i had to do was look at her website to know something is wrong there. If she had nothing to hide the info would be posted right on her own website. As for the puppy book and guarantee she gives people when they get a puppy, a puppy book is pretty much free to make and a guarantee is just a piece of paper. I wouldn't take a dog I love back because it had health problems. I don't think most people would, but wouldn't it be better to have the right tests done to breed healthy dogs instead of having a guarantee to take back sick ones? A guarantee costs her nothing. The tests cost money. Please don't defend her until you find out all the info about your own dogs.


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## alsublett

As someone who has posted here defending my kennel choice - I see and understand your concerns.

I hope to get names and clearances. 

I was an uneducated shopper for a new family member. I did not know what to ask for in terms of paperwork and clearances. I would ask different questions now and for different paperwork.

I do not think it is important for my family to have a "AKC" dog, but health clearances yes. 

I remain a lover of the breed, the wonders of my sweet two dogs, the shedding, the watery mess around their bowls, the snuggles in the evenings and the hours of endless games of fetch... My dogs are healthy, I pray it continues. I do still love GCK. I hope to be able to prove people wrong - I know that my dog is registered, but not AKC - I really do not know or understand it all. Please do not attack me for my choice - know that I am going to try to get answers - 

I do see that you are not trying to be obnoxious - you want proof of health.


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## Shalva

alsublett said:


> As someone who has posted here defending my kennel choice - I see and understand your concerns.
> 
> I hope to get names and clearances.
> 
> I was an uneducated shopper for a new family member. I did not know what to ask for in terms of paperwork and clearances. I would ask different questions now and for different paperwork.
> 
> I do not think it is important for my family to have a "AKC" dog, but health clearances yes.
> 
> I remain a lover of the breed, the wonders of my sweet two dogs, the shedding, the watery mess around their bowls, the snuggles in the evenings and the hours of endless games of fetch... My dogs are healthy, I pray it continues. I do still love GCK. I hope to be able to prove people wrong - I know that my dog is registered, but not AKC - I really do not know or understand it all. Please do not attack me for my choice - know that I am going to try to get answers -
> 
> I do see that you are not trying to be obnoxious - you want proof of health.


It is hard for everyone when they are confronted with information that indicates that they may have been taken advantage or or not made a good decision. 

I too hope that your beloved pup stays healthy and happy... that is what we all want... and honestly we want your breeder to come around and work to protect the breed that we all love... 

I appreciate your loyalty to her and I do understand that... you love your dog and she is probably a nice person... shoot I remember years ago I had bred my first girl and was still learning alot and this woman who helped me in an online forum owned a puppymill.... she was very nice... but she owned a puppymill, not even a commercial or high volume breeder she owned an honest to goodness mill and was eventually shut down by the AKC and had charges of animal neglect... but she was nice to me... do I respect what she did absolutely not... but she was nice and helpful to me and answered my questions. 

I wanted to thank you for at least listening to what we are saying... do your own homework... this thread has a ton of information about how to verify the information for yourself even if we never know about it... 

I WOULD LOVE for you to prove us wrong... I think we would all love to be proved wrong because this honestly upsets us... not because we want to be mean to your breeder but because we honestly love dogs and we know what can happen. 

so good luck wtih your dog.... and the best to you and thank you for understanding and being open to what we are saying


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## tippykayak

We were all uneducated about good breeding practices at one point, and many of us owned a backyard-bred, HVB-bred, or pet store purchased dog at one point. And we love 'em all. Don't think that because you have a GCK dog, you're not welcome. Everybody's welcome. We'll ooh and ahh over your pup no matter what. The dog doesn't choose to be bred with a poorer shot at health. That's the breeder's fault, not the dog's.

So if you defend poor breeding practices, you're going to see the hackles come up from GRF folks. But if you want to learn about good breeding practices, dog sports, dog health, and dog training, this place is an amazing resource. And if you need support when you're having trouble with your pup, GRFers are pretty amazing. Give it a try! Start a thread with some pictures of your dog or with a training question and see how many amazing responses you get.


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## DaisyGolden

alsublett said:


> As someone who has posted here defending my kennel choice - I see and understand your concerns.
> 
> I hope to get names and clearances.
> 
> I was an uneducated shopper for a new family member. I did not know what to ask for in terms of paperwork and clearances. I would ask different questions now and for different paperwork.
> 
> I do not think it is important for my family to have a "AKC" dog, but health clearances yes.
> 
> I remain a lover of the breed, the wonders of my sweet two dogs, the shedding, the watery mess around their bowls, the snuggles in the evenings and the hours of endless games of fetch... My dogs are healthy, I pray it continues. I do still love GCK. I hope to be able to prove people wrong - I know that my dog is registered, but not AKC - I really do not know or understand it all. Please do not attack me for my choice - know that I am going to try to get answers -
> 
> I do see that you are not trying to be obnoxious - you want proof of health.


I'm happy to see someone like you post about this, you want the best for your dogs and so do we. I'm sure the people at GCK are very nice but you can be a nice person and still do things that are wrong. I was like you and didn't know much about any of this when I got my first golden and now that i know better it bothers me to see other people have to learn the hard way. I didn't get my golden from GCK just to be clear, but from another breeder who wasn't that great. I think that maybe she goes all out with the open houses and family atmosphere to keep people from looking further because most people wouldn't want to question someone they really like. There is a reason these dogs aren't akc registered and I doubt the reason is because of anything good. Please ask her for the paperwork like I said before she should have nothing to hide.


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## nixietink

alsublett said:


> As someone who has posted here defending my kennel choice - I see and understand your concerns.
> 
> I hope to get names and clearances.
> 
> I was an uneducated shopper for a new family member. I did not know what to ask for in terms of paperwork and clearances. I would ask different questions now and for different paperwork.
> 
> I do not think it is important for my family to have a "AKC" dog, but health clearances yes.
> 
> I remain a lover of the breed, the wonders of my sweet two dogs, the shedding, the watery mess around their bowls, the snuggles in the evenings and the hours of endless games of fetch... My dogs are healthy, I pray it continues. I do still love GCK. I hope to be able to prove people wrong - I know that my dog is registered, but not AKC - I really do not know or understand it all. Please do not attack me for my choice - know that I am going to try to get answers -
> 
> I do see that you are not trying to be obnoxious - you want proof of health.


I LOVE this post x10000. Thank you for trying to see the other side of the picture and for understanding where everyone here is coming from. We all would love to be proved wrong, actually. 

Alot of people just get defensive and turn a blind eye.


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## DaisyGolden

alsublett said:


> As someone who has posted here defending my kennel choice - I see and understand your concerns.
> 
> I hope to get names and clearances.
> 
> I was an uneducated shopper for a new family member. I did not know what to ask for in terms of paperwork and clearances. I would ask different questions now and for different paperwork.
> 
> I do not think it is important for my family to have a "AKC" dog, but health clearances yes.
> 
> I remain a lover of the breed, the wonders of my sweet two dogs, the shedding, the watery mess around their bowls, the snuggles in the evenings and the hours of endless games of fetch... My dogs are healthy, I pray it continues. I do still love GCK. I hope to be able to prove people wrong - I know that my dog is registered, but not AKC - I really do not know or understand it all. Please do not attack me for my choice - know that I am going to try to get answers -
> 
> I do see that you are not trying to be obnoxious - you want proof of health.


I just wanted to add that I would love to see pics of your dogs and hear all about them. We really are not evil people here. We cry with each other when one of our dogs is sick or dies, we all get excited when someone is getting a new puppy, and we really love any pictures of goldens. The reason so many of us take this so hard and get so upset about it is because we never want to see someone have to put there their dog to sleep because its hips are so bad it can't walk anymore or have their dog die suddenly from a heart condition that could have been prevented with proper screening and breeding. Please look at other threads on this forum and you will be able to get a sense of what we are really like here. Welcome to the forum.


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## Pointgold

Melinda said:


> We love our Goldens and have all gotten them from Susan, we all talk on Facebook so I don't see it as ironic. Wouldn't you go to whatever forum is blasting your breeder if you feel you have the most wonderful dog from her? What I see that is ironic is that all the people on this site who blast the first time posters for defending their breeder, while the initial complaint came from a first time poster as well. I don't care that you feel it necessary to protect your site from the breeders who may or may not be posting under an alias; what I care about is that you guys are so hypocritical! It is sad really.
> 
> We all know that some people just are not good at training and keeping up with the consistency necessary. And sometimes there are just bad dogs, not everyone can be sweet and precious like mine, who by the way is from Golden Creek Kennels. They have an open house every month and if her breed was coming out aggressive then they would not be able to play like they do. Every time I go there are between 15 and 20 out playing in an open area with no leashes.


 
You don't get it. It's not about open houses and sweet dogs. It's about CLEARANCES and healthy dogs and sound breeding practices. Period.
And Susan Harb does not do them.


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## Pointgold

Melinda said:


> I do understand your concerns, my point is that the judging began before anyone really had any kind of evidence. And I still have not seen it.
> On top of that it all came from an initial post from a first timer too. It was more like light the pyre we will get the evidence after you are burnt to a crisp.


Wrong. "Judging" didn't happen at all. What happened is that the FACT that clearances have never been in the OFA/CERF databases began when an inquiry about this breeder was initially made. The "evidence" being the FACT that she was suspended from the AKC, and that no clearances are to be found in a database that proves that they are not done.
SO, should you chose to open your eyes and look beyond the fact that you like the woman (who may well be a very nice person) and that you have a sweet dog (I know LOTS of sweet Goldens that are ill bred and unhealthy, so it's not the only parameter to base a breeding on) and look at what we are saying, you get that this is not a personal vendetta but a very valid concern. The evidence IS there.


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## Pointgold

Melinda said:


> I wish you people would stop treating everyone like idiots! The more I see from you the more I would never take your advice on anything except how to throw someone down in the dirt and step on them...then maybe kick them just for effect


I feel badly for you, actually, that you cannot see that this is about the dogs. Period. And this person who you seem to follow so blindly is simply not what you think she is as far as a breeder goes.


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## Pointgold

Melinda said:


> nope just focusing on who I would rather take advice and it's not looking like you...kick


 
This is cutting off your nose to spite your face. :no:


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## Dreammom

OY :doh:!!!


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## Shalva

Pointgold said:


> This is cutting off your nose to spite your face. :no:


honestly I think you are beating a dead horse at this point... 

this person doesn't want to learn anything and is a testimony to the saying ignorance is bliss


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## DNL2448

Shalva said:


> honestly I think you are beating a dead horse at this point...
> 
> this person doesn't want to learn anything and is a testimony to the saying ignorance is bliss


I don't know, I think once Melinda has a chance to let every thing sink in, she may understand. I hope so anyway. Though I do think she is the only one, the others are still under the spell. We'll see. If we can make life better for just one dog, it will be a good day.


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## Shalva

DNL2448 said:


> I don't know, I think once Melinda has a chance to let every thing sink in, she may understand. I hope so anyway. Though I do think she is the only one, the others are still under the spell. We'll see. If we can make life better for just one dog, it will be a good day.


I would like to think you are right but nothing new is being said and Melinda is so he**bent on being defensive that she is unable or unwilling to digest anything that has been or is being said...


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## tippykayak

Hey guys,

Let's not get caught up in judging Melinda. I don't think it will help. The more insulting comments are, the more ammo we give to the people who would rather rationalize GRFers as "mean" than confront the actual issues.

Nobody's being awful or anything, but let's not let it become a pile-on.


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## Mirinde

Just incase anyone wanted two cents from an objective observer...

I'm really confused about why this thread reached so many pages. Either there are clearances or there are not. If there are clearances, problem solved. If there are not, there is obviously a reason this breeder was suspended, regardless of how family oriented/nice she is/sweet her dogs may be. I don't see that there is even anything to debate? Sweet dogs bred by sweet people can still be involved in poor breeding practices which is just sad considering how many issues golden's already have.


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## Pointgold

DNL2448 said:


> I don't know, I think once Melinda has a chance to let every thing sink in, she may understand. I hope so anyway. Though I do think she is the only one, the others are still under the spell. We'll see. If we can make life better for just one dog, it will be a good day.


I think about PegBurns and Cynazaar - she so loyally defended them, and then her own poor girl was dx'd as dysplastic and she realized there were no clearances and the breeder failed to respond to her.
I understand that they love their dogs, thank God they do. I just hope that poor breeding practices won't put them in a position to understand first hand what we are concerned about.


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## Pointgold

Mirinde said:


> Just incase anyone wanted two cents from an objective observer...
> 
> I'm really confused about why this thread reached so many pages. Either there are clearances or there are not. If there are clearances, problem solved. If there are not, there is obviously a reason this breeder was suspended, regardless of how family oriented/nice she is/sweet her dogs may be. I don't see that there is even anything to debate? Sweet dogs bred by sweet people can still be involved in poor breeding practices which is just sad considering how many issues golden's already have.


 
Her AKC suspension was not about clearances, it was because she falsified registration papers, forging signatures.


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## Pointgold

Susan Harb on FB - "I can not express my appreciation enough for all your support and kind words yesterday. I have always just ignored them and their cruel comments. More like gossip.... Anyway I love you all and how much you love us back. 

C and Me."

She ignores us just as she avoids answering the real question - where is the proof of clearances? She could do a whole lot to end conversation about her were she to simply address this, which she never has. Just thanks her supporters.

This is not "gossip".


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## tippykayak

There is nothing gossipy about advocating for breeding best practices and asking if breeders follow them.


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## DNL2448

Deleted post.


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## Melinda

To the very nice person who PM-ed me. I just got on this forum and will likely not return. I would write this privately, but apparently do not have enough posts

1st - thank you for treating me like a relatively sane human being and with some respect
2nd - I really do understand the passion for Goldens, but when I see nonsense going on and coming at me; I treat the information with the same deference as it was given.
3rd - Because you were so kind (and thank you for the information) I will check it out and ask more questions, but for sure not here.
4th - contrary to popular belief there are not many people, who have gotten their dogs from GCK, wearing Rose colored glasses. If their were major problems with the Goldens from there, there would not be so many people going back for more. Yes, I understand that you are talking about standards of breed through a society doctrine. I have questions on this and will ask elsewhere.

Everyone else: You can reply and quote from this message as much as you want, but I am done here and will not reply. Passion for the breed does not necessitate being mean, rude or disrespectful to anyone; that is when they stop listening.


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## LibertyME

I don't think you are insane. 
I think you love your dog as you should.

I can see how the flood of passionate responses would be overwhelming....
I sincerely hope you keep up your contact with the person that PM'd you as you go about your own research in case you need more resources.

Please know that there is nothing stopping you from having your own dog tested and cleared by board certified specialists....even if he/she is spayed or neutered.. it is not as expensive as you might think.


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## DNL2448

I see you are still viewing this thread, so I will say, I hope you do look for answers. And wish your dog a long and healthy life.


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## Pointgold

Melinda said:


> To the very nice person who PM-ed me. I just got on this forum and will likely not return. I would write this privately, but apparently do not have enough posts
> 
> 1st - thank you for treating me like a relatively sane human being and with some respect
> 2nd - I really do understand the passion for Goldens, but when I see nonsense going on and coming at me; I treat the information with the same deference as it was given.
> 3rd - Because you were so kind (and thank you for the information) I will check it out and ask more questions, but for sure not here.
> 4th - contrary to popular belief there are not many people, who have gotten their dogs from GCK, wearing Rose colored glasses. If their were major problems with the Goldens from there, there would not be so many people going back for more. Yes, I understand that you are talking about standards of breed through a society doctrine. I have questions on this and will ask elsewhere.
> 
> Everyone else: You can reply and quote from this message as much as you want, but I am done here and will not reply. Passion for the breed does not necessitate being mean, rude or disrespectful to anyone; that is when they stop listening.


 
Good luck. I hope that you ask your questions of a neutral party - someone who understands the importance of an ancestral history of genetic health clearances. And who knows how to verify them, or, show you how to. (We could do that here, but you've chosen to believe that we are mean, cruel, gossiping liars). 

I also hope that your own dog doesn't suffer any of the issues Goldens are prone to. Know that not looking for them doesn't mean that they don't exist. If NOTHING else, please, have an ACVO veterinary ophthalmologist check your dog annually to avoid the heartbreak of a dog with Pigmentary Uveitis. *A normal vet practitioner is not enough - it takes a specialist to properly diagnose.


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## Sally's Mom

Well, I have been busy at work.... missed this most of the day. 
And as far as looking at history in k9data, many people will enter dogs not their own, so clearances,etc, may be lacking... Other people on GRF enter dogs that keeps some of the greeders honest.


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## nolefan

*For anyone who sees this thread down the road...*

I hope anyone in the future who sees this thread will understand how passionate the people who took the time to post are about doing things the right way. None of this is personal, it is about any breeder, no matter what the breed of dog might be, doing things for the betterment of the dogs and their future health.

If anyone thinks this is just 'crazy golden people' being ugly or gossipy or with some sort of personal vendetta, please read the links I am going to attach. Some other popular dog breeds have even better breakdowns on their websites of what makes a GOOD breeder. This is excellent:

Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club - USA - Questions to ask the breeder

And here is a direct quote from the Labrador Retriever Club:

*Before opting to breed your Labrador, you should visit the following websites for important information on hereditary medical conditions that affect Labrador Retrievers and the proper clearances for both parents prior to breeding. At a minimum, responsible breeders will screen all of their breeding stock for these conditions. *

These organizations have tests breeders use for screening:

• Orthopedic Foundation For Animals (OFA), www.offa.org evaluation and certification of hips and elbows. The dog must have x-rays taken by a veterinarian of its hip and elbow joints. The x-rays are taken according to OFA protocol and submitted to OFA for evaluation. 

• Canine Eye Registration Foundation(CERF), www.vmdb.org/cerf.htm issues registration numbers for the results of eye examinations performed by a veterinary ophthalmologist accredited by the American College of Veterinary Ophthalmology. The examination must be done within one year of any breeding. Owners of breeding bitches and stud dogs should continue to have an annual CERF exam for late onset hereditary eye disease. 

• Optigen, www.optigen.com assesses the genetic predisposition for Progressive Retinal Atrophy, a genetic condition which will render a dog blind. This is a DNA test to determine if the dog is genetically clears, a carrier, or potentially affected with PRA. This is a blood test that many breeders use as part of their screening process. Blood can be drawn, prepared and shipped by your veterinarian according to Optigen protocol.

All of us want dogs to be healthier in the future. If we don't stick to high standards, it will never happen. Bless the breeders and owners on this forum who are doing the right thing by their dogs every day. I've learned so much here.


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## Elisabeth Kazup

I hope she gets some emails requesting information about clearances instead. From her FB page:

I need to update my site with a new testimony. Send a great picture of your pup with what you experience has been with Golden Creek Kennels. Email... [email protected].

Thanks!
Susan
Monday at 1:29pm


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## Pointgold

Penny's Mom said:


> I hope she gets some emails requesting information about clearances instead. From her FB page:
> 
> I need to update my site with a new testimony. Send a great picture of your pup with what you experience has been with Golden Creek Kennels. Email... [email protected].
> 
> Thanks!
> Susan
> Monday at 1:29pm


She needs to update her site with links to every one of those dog's OFA database pages! Oh, wait...


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## Shalva

Pointgold said:


> She needs to update her site with links to every one of those dog's OFA database pages! Oh, wait...


thats a good idea... I might do that myself


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## DNL2448

Is there anyway to move Nolefan's post to the beginning of this thread? I doubt anyone will read all 19 pages, and if they do, may just skim over a lot of them. This post, should be read by all. It wouldn't hurt to be the first (or second after the OP) post of every thread similar to this one....


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## JakeJessy

You people are out of your minds. Of course more could be done but these are NOT nor do we pretend to pass these dogs off as SHOW Dogs. We also DON'T purchase them so we can breed them ourselves. These dogs are a family pet that live a very long and healthy life. I have interviewed other owners that I found myself before I purchased. Susan Harb has given countless of pet owners and incredible gift. Why is she so successful?? Marketing?? Come on, have you seen her website??? I'm in the field and that website is horrible to say the least. Susan gets tons of free advertising from people just walking their dogs. I get stopped almost everyday with people asking me, where did I get these dogs? I so get off your soap box Laura and raise your SHOW dogs and point to all your clearances, my Goldens will live just as long because of how I take care of them. And if your dogs happen to live 13 years to my 11 years, so what! Your medical clearances didn't make that happen!


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## Pointgold

JakeJessy said:


> You people are out of your minds. Of courser more could be done but these are not nore do we pretend to pass these dogs off as SHOW Dogs. We also don't purchase them so we can breed them ourselves. These dogs are family pet that live a very long and healthy life. I have interviewed other owners that I found myself before I purchased. Susan Harb has given countless of pet owners and incredible gift. Why is she so successful?? Marketing?? Come on, have you seen her website??? I'm in the field and that website is horrible to say the lest. Susan gets tons of free advertising from people just walking their dogs. I get stopped almost everyday with people asking me, where did I get these dogs. I so get off your soap box and raise your SHOW dog and point to all your clearances, my Goldens will live just as long because of how I take care of them.


*EXCUSE ME???*
Seriously. This is NOT about "show dogs". EVERY dog deserves the best health possible, and since they do not ask to be born, it is up to US, BREEDERS, to do EVERY SINGLE THING WE CAN to help assure that. And for me, a family purchasing a pet from me deserves to NOT suffer the agony of watching a young dog drop dead in the yard while playing with their children (SAS, anyone?) or to suffer the emotional and financial pain of loving a dog crippled with hip or elbow dysplasia, or to have to look their beautiful dog in ONE eye because the other was enucleated due to pigmentary uveitis. These diseases do NOT simply target show dogs. 

It is beyond naive to think that how you care for your dog will prevent hereditary diseases. That, sir/madam, is madness. And just because you don't look for it does NOT mean that it is not there.


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## DNL2448

There are none so blind as those who do not see!

This is not just about SHOW dogs! Clearances for pets is just as important, maybe moreso. How long do you think these dogs will be able to go for walks, jump in the lake, hike, chase a ball, play with the kids if they can't walk, see or drop dead from SAS???


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## Pointgold

JakeJessy said:


> You people are out of your minds. Of courser more could be done but these are not nore do we pretend to pass these dogs off as SHOW Dogs. We also don't purchase them so we can breed them ourselves. These dogs are family pet that live a very long and healthy life. I have interviewed other owners that I found myself before I purchased. Susan Harb has given countless of pet owners and incredible gift. Why is she so successful?? Marketing?? Come on, have you seen her website??? I'm in the field and that website is horrible to say the lest. Susan gets tons of free advertising from people just walking their dogs. I get stopped almost everyday with people asking me, where did I get these dogs. I so get off your soap box and raise your SHOW dog and point to all your clearances, my Goldens will live just as long because of how I take care of them.


How dare you. Really, if you are promoting this breeder or any other, and suggesting that doing clearances is unneccessary, you are every bit as guilty of harming this wonderful breed as those "breeders" who choose to mass produce them with no consideration to their genetic health and no concern about anything but the checks that people write to them, and the "free advertising" that these naive people provide for them.


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## DNL2448

JakeJessy said:


> You people are out of your minds. Of course more could be done but these are NOT nor do we pretend to pass these dogs off as SHOW Dogs. We also DON'T purchase them so we can breed them ourselves. These dogs are a family pet that live a very long and healthy life. I have interviewed other owners that I found myself before I purchased. Susan Harb has given countless of pet owners and incredible gift. Why is she so successful?? Marketing?? Come on, have you seen her website??? I'm in the field and that website is horrible to say the least. Susan gets tons of free advertising from people just walking their dogs. I get stopped almost everyday with people asking me, where did I get these dogs? I so get off your soap box Laura and raise your SHOW dogs and point to all your clearances, my Goldens will live just as long because of how I take care of them. And if your dogs happen to live 13 years to my 11 years, so what! Your medical clearances didn't make that happen!


Editing to call me out eh??? Well, so be it. I would rather know I am doing all I can to make sure my dogs are healthy and any puppies that I have, have the best chance to live long healthy happy lives with their new families. Obviously, once your GCK dog is done with their usefull life, they are cast away and you can just go get a new one. Good on you...NOT.


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## Pointgold

JakeJessy said:


> You people are out of your minds. Of course more could be done but these are NOT nor do we pretend to pass these dogs off as SHOW Dogs. We also DON'T purchase them so we can breed them ourselves. These dogs are a family pet that live a very long and healthy life. I have interviewed other owners that I found myself before I purchased. Susan Harb has given countless of pet owners and incredible gift. Why is she so successful?? Marketing?? Come on, have you seen her website??? I'm in the field and that website is horrible to say the least. Susan gets tons of free advertising from people just walking their dogs. I get stopped almost everyday with people asking me, where did I get these dogs? I so get off your soap box Laura and raise your SHOW dogs and point to all your clearances, my Goldens will live just as long because of how I take care of them. And if your dogs happen to live 13 years to my 11 years, so what! Your medical clearances didn't make that happen!


 
And you know this how? The vast number of pet owners do NOT necropsy their dogs at death, so have no idea the COD. And, since you are not doing clearances, you have no idea if that dog had HD or ED, or suffered from an ophthalmological disease that was hereditary, or if that dog's heart was affected by a disease that could have been prevented had his or her parents been screened prior to breeding them.

I feel sorry for you. And more so for your dog, and others produced by "breeders" like this. I do _not_ doubt that you love your dog, however your denial that there could be a genetic time bomb ticking away is beyond naive, and ultimately it is the dogs that suffer.


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## Ljilly28

JakeJessy said:


> my Goldens will live just as long because of how I take care of them.


I so wish the world of goldens was like this- take care of them and they live healthy long lives. Simplicity, fairness. . . Unfortunately, wistful, wishful thinking is no substitute for medical science. Anyone breeding pet dogs should be living up to the responsibility to complete health clearances.


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## tippykayak

JakeJessy said:


> You people are out of your minds. Of course more could be done but these are NOT nor do we pretend to pass these dogs off as SHOW Dogs. We also DON'T purchase them so we can breed them ourselves. These dogs are a family pet that live a very long and healthy life. I have interviewed other owners that I found myself before I purchased. Susan Harb has given countless of pet owners and incredible gift. Why is she so successful?? Marketing?? Come on, have you seen her website??? I'm in the field and that website is horrible to say the least. Susan gets tons of free advertising from people just walking their dogs. I get stopped almost everyday with people asking me, where did I get these dogs? I so get off your soap box Laura and raise your SHOW dogs and point to all your clearances, my Goldens will live just as long because of how I take care of them. And if your dogs happen to live 13 years to my 11 years, so what! Your medical clearances didn't make that happen!


Who said they had to be show dogs?

This is about health, pure and simple. It's about giving a Golden Retriever the best possible shot at a long, healthy life. It's foolish to the point of unethical to bury your head in the ground and sing "la la la" instead of acknowledging the overwhelming evidence that a few simple tools can prevent debilitating suffering for dogs and heartbreak for owners.

Clearances are about protecting dogs from suffering. Just because you're mad that you didn't know any better when you got your dog and you got duped, that doesn't mean that clearances are only for show dogs or that only show dogs deserve to live healthy lives.

Anybody can give "the incredible gift" of a Golden Retriever puppy. Put intact animals together, and you'll get more animals, and all puppies are adorable, and nearly all dogs bond wonderfully with their owners. That makes it all the more shameful when those beloved dogs develop crippling, preventable diseases. A _truly_ incredible gift is a Golden Retriever with the best possible shot at a long healthy life. They don't live long enough as it is, so taking easily preventable risks is downright stupid.

Hip and elbow clearances reduce the chances of dysplasia by at least half. There's no debate there; anybody who takes a few minutes to review the literature will see it, clear as day. Is your pride so important that you'll deny that and keep defending a person whose dogs are literally twice as likely to develop those conditions? No matter what wonderful care you take of a dog, if the hip socket is malformed, it's malformed. You can't TLC your way out of that.

This is about protecting dogs from unethical breeders and uneducated buyers. If you want to stay willfully uneducated because you like this person or because you felt the people on GRF weren't nice enough in their attempt to educate you, nobody can stop you. But there's nobody more foolish than a fool who insists on his foolishness, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.


----------



## Pointgold

JakeJessy said:


> Aside from Pigmentary Uveitis you can also go beyond routine care and get you dog tested to see if he/she has a predisposition toward hip dysplasia
> 
> Also according to the AKC, Susan is good standing today with several owners registering their dog. I will attempt to do the same with Jake.


 
When you first posted this in October of 2010, I asked you to share what testing is done to diagnose Pigmentary Uveitis at the Banfield that you use. You never replied. I'd also like to know what testing is done to determine a "predispostion toward hip dysplasia" and what that even means?

Did you ever get Jake registered with the AKC? I just printed, from the AKC data base, all the dogs registered with the Golden Creek prefix. There are 40 dogs. 1 has an ILP number. None are recent. Some may not even have been bred by Ms. Harb, as there is more than one Golden Creek. Ms. Harb could easily have produced 40 dogs in 4 litters, so gee - this hardly represents a fraction of the Golden Creek dogs produced.

Would love your insight on this...


And, when I have a chance, I will plug every single one of the registration numbers into the OFA database to see if ANY of them have had clearances. Remember, Ms. Harb does claim to do them. So, why all of her supporters are saying they are not necessary is a bit of a mystery...


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## LibertyME

Your logic makes no sense...
You seem to be saying that because these are just pets (a phrase that makes me cringe)...that they somehow don't deserve to come from healthy breed stock. WOW!!!!

If you are fostering a dog that will be used for breeding...even if you never receive a penny (or a puppy) for the use of your dogs sperm or eggs, you are a cog in the breeding machine....and IMHO you are just as responsible for the breeding as the breeder that accepts the payment for the puppies.

IMHO her financial success breeding dogs has come from a lack of education of her buyers and the impulsiveness that is rampant in our society. 
However, the tide is slowly turning thanks to the internet and the ability to share and verify information quickly....

Please remember, there is absolutely NOTHING stopping this breeder or any other breeder from improving their breeding program...at any time. Frankly I have respect for uneducated breeders that work hard to turn around their programs. The financial costs to clear each breeding animal costs less then the cost of ONE puppy from ONE litter. _WHY WOULDNT_ a breeder clear their animals???





JakeJessy said:


> You people are out of your minds. Of course more could be done but these are NOT nor do we pretend to pass these dogs off as SHOW Dogs. We also DON'T purchase them so we can breed them ourselves. These dogs are a family pet that live a very long and healthy life. I have interviewed other owners that I found myself before I purchased. Susan Harb has given countless of pet owners and incredible gift. Why is she so successful?? Marketing?? Come on, have you seen her website??? I'm in the field and that website is horrible to say the least. Susan gets tons of free advertising from people just walking their dogs. I get stopped almost everyday with people asking me, where did I get these dogs? I so get off your soap box Laura and raise your SHOW dogs and point to all your clearances, my Goldens will live just as long because of how I take care of them. And if your dogs happen to live 13 years to my 11 years, so what! Your medical clearances didn't make that happen!


----------



## Pointgold

JakeJessy said:


> You people are out of your minds. Of course more could be done but these are NOT nor do we pretend to pass these dogs off as SHOW Dogs. We also DON'T purchase them so we can breed them ourselves. These dogs are a family pet that live a very long and healthy life. I have interviewed other owners that I found myself before I purchased. Susan Harb has given countless of pet owners and incredible gift. Why is she so successful?? Marketing?? Come on, have you seen her website??? I'm in the field and that website is horrible to say the least. Susan gets tons of free advertising from people just walking their dogs. I get stopped almost everyday with people asking me, where did I get these dogs? I so get off your soap box Laura and raise your SHOW dogs and point to all your clearances, my Goldens will live just as long because of how I take care of them. And if your dogs happen to live 13 years to my 11 years, so what! Your medical clearances didn't make that happen!


Another edit, this time to target me. (Funny, wasn't it you that lamented to "anonymity" of breeders here? I may be wrong, but I sure haven't attempted to hide who I am or what I do...) FYI, the majority of dogs that I have bred have gone to PET homes. Not SHOW homes. _I _show my dogs, I do not require that anyone else does. Pet buyers get a dog bred exactly the same way as the dogs that I show to championships. And I WILL point to all my clearances because EVERY SINGLE DOG PRODUCED DESERVES NO LESS. PET OR SHOW. PERIOD. 

Love the dive, dig, and dash that people like you use here. You cannot address the issue, so attack the messenger. I've asked some valid questions of you. Care to man up and answer them?


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## Elisabeth Kazup

JakeJessy said:

"And if your dogs happen to live 13 years to my 11 years, so what! Your medical clearances didn't make that happen!"

Are you freaking kidding me??? So what if your dog dies 2 years sooner than mine. I wouldn't EVER want to miss a single minute of Our Penny's life, let alone TWO YEARS. I would rather have her live FOREVER!

OMG, I am beyond disgusted with that remark. No wonder you don't care if the dogs are suitable for breeding, your dog is disposable! O...M...G...!!!


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## tippykayak

I would give anything for two more healthy years with any of the Golden Retrievers I've ever loved. Anything.


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## Sally's Mom

Ditto for me.


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## DNL2448

I/we are still waiting for the great Susan Harb to make an appearance. I know she is monitoring this thread or how would she know what kind of nice comments her sycophants are giving her. Susan, log on and please tell us your philosophy as to why you choose not to ensure your breeding animals are the healthiest they can be. If you love your dogs as much as everyone says you do why wouldn’t you want to ensure their long life and happiness? Why on Earth would you skimp on their health when it sounds as if you go all out in other areas? You could put an end to this negative press if you would just make the effort to do what is right. It’s more than just producing a pretty dog, it’s more, much more.


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## Pointgold

Penny's Mom said:


> JakeJessy said:
> 
> "And if your dogs happen to live 13 years to my 11 years, so what! Your medical clearances didn't make that happen!"
> 
> Are you freaking kidding me??? So what if your dog dies 2 years sooner than mine. I wouldn't EVER want to miss a single minute of Our Penny's life, let alone TWO YEARS. I would rather have her live FOREVER!
> 
> OMG, I am beyond disgusted with that remark. No wonder you don't care if the dogs are suitable for breeding, your dog is disposable! O...M...G...!!!


 
The ignorance is sad to me. And I have to believe, since I do think that these people love the dogs that they got from that woman, that it is purely ignorance, and the breeder surely would not educate them - it would do nothing for her bottom line. They'd know enough to demand clearances, and would see that her breeding practices leave a lot to be desired.

What I wouldn't give to have had 2 more years with Lyric (who left me at 16) or Dave (14...) or Tiller (3), or to know that if I only could take better care of them I'd never have to do another clearance again...


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## nixietink

tippykayak said:


> I would give anything for two more healthy years with any of the Golden Retrievers I've ever loved. Anything.


This is the truth. Thank you Tippy. 

GCK supporters can come on here and spew what they will. As happy as I am that they love their dogs, they just do not see the big picture.

In the end, this thread pops up on the 1st page of a google search. Hopefully future interested parties will see this thread and they can make their own judgement. I know what I would do.

ETA: If Susan Harb is reading this thread, and if she claims to love the golden breed like we do, I can only hope that she will make necessary changes to her breeding program. Clearances cost so little, and you get SO much.


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## Maggies mom

Originally Posted by JakeJessy View Post
my Goldens will live just as long because of how I take care of them.

Are you Kidding me????????


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## DaisyGolden

I just can't figure out why any of the people who have a dog from GCK would continue to stick up for her.


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## Elisabeth Kazup

One of them pm'd me, made a cursory complementary remark about Penny and then wanted to know what kennel she came from. Struck me as a little odd because to that point, I had made only 1 reply to the thread.


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## mylissyk

33 breeding females + 6 males x (how much to do clearances?) = the reason she doesn't do them.


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## DaisyGolden

It's really strange. Almost like a cult following.


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## Sophie_Mom

Makes me want to scream -- If only I had taken better care of Sophie, maybe she wouldn't have died!!!!!!! ***?????


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## Elisabeth Kazup

I'm sure the person is trying to check up on everybody's Goldens to see if we chose according to the standards we preach. I don't have Penny's registered name in my signature because it includes our last name. And I wasn't about to give that information out.


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## Pointgold

It's interesting that breeders like this (and buyers, too) like to tout that their dogs have XX number of champions in their pedigrees, but then slam show dogs, and their breeders who have devoted so much time and effort and care to produce them, doing everything in their power to assure that they are healthy and long-lived. They exploit the very principals that they denigrate in order to make themselves appear legitimate, reputable, and responsible. Hypocritical?

Amazing.


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## jackie_hubert

I have a friend who works for a pet related business whose job it is to scour the web and post positive messages about the product...


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## Elisabeth Kazup

So true! And our darling Polly would have turned 30 this past June! I could just kick myself for not taking good care of her. Guess it would have required more than making her food myself every Saturday for the last 8 year's of her life. 



Sophie_Mom said:


> Makes me want to scream -- If only I had taken better care of Sophie, maybe she wouldn't have died!!!!!!! ***?????


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## nixietink

mylissyk said:


> 33 breeding females + 6 males x (how much to do clearances?) = the reason she doesn't do them.


THIRTY THREE FEMALES?!


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## Elisabeth Kazup

YES!!!! Go to her website. She brazenly has pictures of all the males and females...not hiding anything. I think to the uninformed, this openess gives a sense of legitimacy. I mean to say: if it wasn't an acceptable practice, she would want to hide it. The fact that it's right there in living color must mean ALL breeders produce upwards of 50 puppies PER MONTH!!!


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## Pointgold

Penny's Mom said:


> I'm sure the person is trying to check up on everybody's Goldens to see if we chose according to the standards we preach. I don't have Penny's registered name in my signature because it includes our last name. And I wasn't about to give that information out.


 
Yeah? Well, if that's the case, bring it on...
How many people have come here, and stated that they have learned so much, and will do things differently next time? How many people here have rescue Goldens - many the result of HVB's and mills - because they have huge hearts and have taken them into their families to love? Of course, the GCK Gang will find those and cry foul. I'll cry foul louder, since the GCK's of the world set reputable breeders back MILES for every step forward we have made to eradicate the hereditary diseases, the out of standard dogs, and poor temperamentats that are produced in the name of money.


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## Elisabeth Kazup

Maybe GCK followers should go to the "What clearances look like" sticky in this forum and tell us if they got any paper that looked like that. Or if they were even SHOWN a paper that looked like that.


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## Pointgold

Penny's Mom said:


> YES!!!! Go to her website. She brazenly has pictures of all the males and females...not hiding anything. I think to the uninformed, this openess gives a sense of legitimacy. I mean to say: if it wasn't an acceptable practice, she would want to hide it. The fact that it's right there in living color must mean ALL breeders produce upwards of 50 puppies PER MONTH!!!


Don't forget the "foster" program - she doesn't have to feed or care for the uteruses she places in homes, just reaps the financial benefits once bred and chucking out puppies.


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## Elisabeth Kazup

You've hit the nail on the head. Clearances are PROOF that unsuitable dogs have been eliminated from the breeding program. It starts way before the litter is even planned. 

There has to be a way to sort out the dogs with a strong possibility of passing on undesireable health anomalies from the ones who have little to no possibility of passing them on. With each generation of dogs with superior clearances, the genes that produce the undesireable qualities get diluted until there's very little chance of producing an unhealthy puppy. 

That isn't to say a recessive gene can't surface occasionally, but the odds are well-tilted towards healthy puppies by eliminating unsuitable breeding stock for generation after generation. I think these buyers just don't understand genetics or how the selection of breeding pairs works.



Pointgold said:


> Yeah? Well, if that's the case, bring it on...
> How many people have come here, and stated that they have learned so much, and will do things differently next time? How many people here have rescue Goldens - many the result of HVB's and mills - because they have huge hearts and have taken them into their families to love? Of course, the GCK Gang will find those and cry foul. I'll cry foul louder, since the GCK's of the world set reputable breeders back MILES for every step forward we have made to eradicate the hereditary diseases, the out of standard dogs, and poor temperamentats that are produced in the name of money.


----------



## DaisyGolden

The foster program thing really makes me sick. I wonder if there are rules in her area about how many dogs you can have on your property and that's why she thought to do that. It's a great way for her to have more dogs making puppies without having them on her property.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup

Yep, she has good PR...makes everything sound so warm and cozy, doesn't she! All the while she's producing hordes of puppies.



Pointgold said:


> Don't forget the "foster" program - she doesn't have to feed or care for the uteruses she places in homes, just reaps the financial benefits once bred and chucking out puppies.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup

I was thinking the same thing. I wonder how many of the females actually live at the kennel and how many are part of her revolving door breeding program. We have a rule in our homeowners association that only 2 dogs can live here. There's no rule, however, about how many I can own. I could have 33 dogs too if I wanted but only 2 could be on this property at one time. 



DaisyGolden said:


> The foster program thing really makes me sick. I wonder if there are rules in her area about how many dogs you can have on your property and that's why she thought to do that. It's a great way for her to have more dogs making puppies without having them on her property.


----------



## DNL2448

*Characteristics of a cult leader*

I found some of this interesting....

In general, charismatic personalities are known for their inescapable magnetism, their winning style, the self assurance with which they promote something, a cause, a belief, a product.

Cult leaders have an outstanding ability to charm and win over followers. They enter a room and garner all the attention. 
Paranoia may be evident in simple or elaborate delusions of persecution. Highly suspicious, they may feel conspired against, spied upon or cheated, or maligned by a person, group, or governmental agency. Any real or suspected unfavorable reaction may be interpreted as a deliberate attack upon them or the group.


----------



## Shalva

DNL2448 said:


> I found some of this interesting....
> 
> In general, charismatic personalities are known for their inescapable magnetism, their winning style, the self assurance with which they promote something, a cause, a belief, a product.
> 
> Cult leaders have an outstanding ability to charm and win over followers. They enter a room and garner all the attention.
> Paranoia may be evident in simple or elaborate delusions of persecution. Highly suspicious, they may feel conspired against, spied upon or cheated, or maligned by a person, group, or governmental agency. Any real or suspected unfavorable reaction may be interpreted as a deliberate attack upon them or the group.


that is a synopsis from a great sociological theorist by the name of Max Weber from his writings "politics as a vocation" 
you guys are killin me here... it regards his discussion of charismatic leaders and such...


----------



## Pointgold

DNL2448 said:


> I found some of this interesting....
> 
> In general, charismatic personalities are known for their inescapable magnetism, their winning style, the self assurance with which they promote something, a cause, a belief, a product.
> 
> Cult leaders have an outstanding ability to charm and win over followers. They enter a room and garner all the attention.
> Paranoia may be evident in simple or elaborate delusions of persecution. Highly suspicious, they may feel conspired against, spied upon or cheated, or maligned by a person, group, or governmental agency. Any real or suspected unfavorable reaction may be interpreted as a deliberate attack upon them or the group.


 
I cannot see going quite so far as to call this a "cult" situation.


----------



## DaisyGolden

Pointgold said:


> I cannot see going quite so far as to call this a "cult" situation.


I used the word cult as an example to describe the way the people defending her were acting. Not listening to anyone here no matter what they said. Of course i don't think this is an actual cult.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup

But, I do find those same characteristics are essential in the con-man or woman!


----------



## alsublett

To pennys mom: I sent you a kind note. I looked at your gorgeous penny and she looks just like my mothers golden who passed three years ago. There was no ill intent. I have not been nasty and have actually thanked you guys for info. So thanks for the rude remark towards me.

I was innocent. I was complimentary. Wow. Thanks


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup

It's the internet...I'm suspicious. That's not rude, it's honest. I always love it when people complement me on Penny. I don't know how where I got her is relevant.



alsublett said:


> To pennys mom: I sent you a kind note. I looked at your gorgeous penny and she looks just like my mothers golden who passed three years ago. There was no ill intent. I have not been nasty and have actually thanked you guys for info. So thanks for the rude remark towards me.
> 
> I was innocent. I was complimentary. Wow. Thanks


----------



## nolefan

It's funny, I was about to vent my frustration that some of the irate Susan Harb dog owner here were so defensive and clearly had no intention of seeing the light. And of course that made me realize that they didn't come to this site the way most people stumble upon us, to do research and potentially learn something new. We've been wasting our time from the get-go. They came here to tell us they love Susan, not to learn about ethical breeding standards or how to improve the lives of the dogs they currently own.

I think this thread should be closed, it's not going to change anything with the willfully ignorant people who posted here to argue Susan's virtues. I wish those of you who are always so helpful on this forum would walk away from this train wreck and concentrate on sharing your wisdom and experience with open-minded people who are actually interested in the improvement of the golden retriever breed in general and their own dogs' lives in particular. 
This has been depressing to me on many levels and just goes to show that there are a lot of people in the world who are simply not interested in learning about opposing view points if it makes them feel like they may have made a mistake with a past decision of their own.
But honestly, I want to thank all of you who worked so hard to try and educate people who just didn't want to learn.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup

I second the motion to close the thread. The subject has been covered.


----------



## Selli-Belle

mylissyk said:


> 33 breeding females + 6 males x (how much to do clearances?) = the reason she doesn't do them.


Plus if the dogs do not pass, she loses the money they could make for her.


----------



## Pointgold

Selli-Belle said:


> Plus if the dogs do not pass, she loses the money they could make for her.


 
So, back to the "if you don't look for it, it's not there" school of thought. :doh:


----------



## Shalva

i honestly would like this thread to not be closed.... I would like someone to bump it up periodically so it continues to be first when googling golden creek kennels... and not get lost in the pits of the archives

I think there is alot of information here ... and good information and while I dont think that it should be dragged on and on and on ... I do think it serves a purpose... 
but that is just my two cents... let the powers that be do what they will


----------



## Pointgold

I did enter all the AKC numbers for the dogs I got off the AKC database with a "Golden Creek" prefix. The ones that did show up in the data base were an entirely _different _"Golden Creek", a breeder who in fact competes with her dogs, handles, and is involved in both all-breed and specialty clubs.

So, nuthin' in there from_ THE_ GCK.:gotme:


----------



## Shalva

I wonder who was first if both are golden breeders... I know that others have stolen other breeders kennel affixes to confuse people and make the other breeders dogs seem like their own... so I am just curious


----------



## Pointgold

Shalva said:


> I wonder who was first if both are golden breeders... I know that others have stolen other breeders kennel affixes to confuse people and make the other breeders dogs seem like their own... so I am just curious


 
Actually, there was another Golden Creek that used the prefix in the early 80's or even prior. They did some co-breeding with Kitty Cathey of Pekay, in GA. Susan Harb has only been doing this for 13 years, according to her own site.


----------



## kpswd

I am new to this forum and live in Raleigh (virtually the same city as Durham where she is located). 

After having a really strong desire for getting a puppy after our last dog passed away, I actually ended up going a different route and ended up getting an "older" puppy. During my research, I came across this forum as well as at one point GCK.

Going through the process of purchasing a puppy can be a very emotional time for anyone that longs to have a companion. I know that a lot has been said in this forum about people defending GCK and as someone from the "outside" looking in I can picture myself defending her as well if I had purchased a puppy from there years ago that was still healthy and a good companion. Having said that, I respect the breeders that take the time and effort to be selective and only breed dogs that they feel have the right temperament and have health clearances.

I purchased my first dog 17 years ago and it was from a back yard, high volume breeder. Looking back at it, I would probably consider it being a puppy mill. I have no idea if he had any type of certifications other than the AKC registration that I received. He was without a doubt the best dog anyone could ever have wanted. Even as a puppy he didn't cause much damage to the house and was extremely easy to train. There was not a trick in the book that we couldn't teach him in a day or two, and he knew a lot of them. Something funny that sticks in my mind as I write this is that he would pick berries with us. After watching us pick blackberries off a bush, he walked up to the bush, curled his lips and gently picked the berry with his teeth and came over and put it in my hand. He was extremely intelligent and had an exceptional temperament but....

He had a LOT of health issues and he was a very sick dog and passed away in surgery when he was 6 years old due to complications associated to his health (The reason for his surgery was not health related). There is NO doubt in my mind that a lot of these issues were known to the breeder if he just cared to look hard enough at the parents/grandparents. To this day I wish that I could have another dog just like him even if he had all those health issues. I know that is a very selfish statement, but that is what an awesome dog he was. I can certainly understand people that defend GCK based on myself having had an exceptional dog that came out of an environment like that (or worse). He was neutered pretty early in life due to his issues and we knew that no matter how much we wanted to have another dog that "came from him", it would have been very irresponsible to breed him.

I can't even begin to estimate the medical bills that we had that were associated with him, but in the end we really didn't care what it cost us because of how we felt about him.

It is such an emotional issue and I can understand people "defending" their dogs heritage because we all (well most of us) feel that our dog(s) is the best in the world. It is almost like someone is attacking your children when people talk about your dog is not as good as others since they do not have the health certifications that others do. There are plenty of dogs that grow up to be absolutely wonderful dogs and that live very long and healthy lives that are purebred muts without any kind of certifications.

Because of my previous experience, I did insist that we TRY to avoid some of the issues that we had with Cosmo. There are NO guarantees in life and even a dog with the healthiest of pedigree can still get sick, but I wanted to get a dog that would give me the best odds on having a healthy dog. Because of this, the price of the dog was not really an issue for us. It would have been cheaper for me to buy a $5,000-$10,000 pedigree dog that had no health issues than what I spent at the vet for Cosmo during his time with us. 

When I was searching difference websites, I found Mikey (NOT from GCK) and we just looked at the pictures and fell in love with the idea of having him come join our family. 

The website stated that all of their dogs are certified before breeding, but I am not sure how well their record keeping worked. One thing that did make us feel more comfortable with the breeder was that they were very open about everything (although it felt a bit disorganized about everything in the beginning). She allowed me as well as my vet to contact her vet to ask any questions that we wanted, allow us access to all of his medical records. In addition, eye and heart certifications, preliminary OFA on hips were done on the puppy/young dog that I purchased. All of these were made available for my vet to look at before we finalized the purchase. He is neutered, so it is not something that was done for breeding purposes, but rather for my benefit to make sure that he was healthy.

Only time will tell if he stays healthy, but I feel that this time I have done a much better job on my homework. I don't know much about her as a breeder, but I do feel confident in our choice of Mikey. There are things that I would perhaps have done differently, but we were all aching for a 4 legged friend to come in to our lives as soon as possible and he was the one we fell in love with even though he was 1000 miles away.

I have no doubt that there are people that will have GREAT goldens that will stay healthy and live long lives and come from GCK, but I also know from personal experience how bad it hurts to see your best friend go through as much as our Cosmo did, and it was all because he came from a breeder that didn't care about the hereditary illnesses that he was allowing to continue just so that he could make some money. It is just so hard for me to think that if it wasn't for the breeder, I would never have had Cosmo and that is an experience that I would never have wanted to do without. Truly a double edge sword. In a perfect world, Cosmo would not have been as sick as he was and he would have still been the dog that he was, but that is not the cards that we were dealt. It was a very cruel realization to have found a "perfect" dog, but knowing that he was a very unhealthy dog.

So if you are considering getting a dog (any breed), please do some research and educate yourself the best way that you know how. Everyone can look back and say that they would have done something differently, but atleast try to educate yourself and ask questions if you have any. I think that the breeder that Mikey came from had to question her sanity as to why she dealt with me just based on all the phone calls and emails that she got from me. It was not a "standard" situation and that made it different than most puppy purchases, but I am thankful that she stuck with me and didn't tire of me or my questions/rants. We now have Mikey and we couldn't be happier.

Sorry about the long post (and thank you for reading all of it if you made it all the way down here to the end)


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Great post. I think there are many of us here that will do things differently when we look for a new pup. It's a testament to the forum and the breeders who give of their time to educate us all. I had never heard of clearances before joining the forum several years ago..... we took the advice of our then vet as far as finding a breeder. We have been one of the lucky ones in that our girls have not had any serious health problems and have wonderful temperments.. Like you, I wouldn't trade them for anything, they mean the world to us. But we won't go that route again.


----------



## Sally's Mom

I am disturbed that you purchased a dog whose parents had prelim hip clearances( a RED FLAG in my book) and no mention of elbow clearances. Maybe I ,missed something???


----------



## kpswd

Sally's Mom said:


> I am disturbed that you purchased a dog whose parents had prelim hip clearances( a RED FLAG in my book) and no mention of elbow clearances. Maybe I ,missed something???


If this message was for me, then maybe I didn't make it as clear as I could have. The breeder had those certifications done on the dog that I purchased (Mikey) for my benefit. It is my understanding that OFA certification was preliminary because he is too young... He is only 20 months old.

If you are talking about the dog that I purchased 17 years ago (LONG before the internet existed in a form that we know today), then yes that was not a very wise decision but I was young and didn't know any better.


----------



## Sally's Mom

Well, HELLO, too young means you don't breed the dog, prelims or not!


----------



## Sally's Mom

There is a reason to wait until 2 years to get final certification... GRCA members are not supposed to breed dogs before clearances. What club is this breeder a member of??


----------



## Bentley's Mom

I think he means the parents have their clearances and he's had prelims done on his puppy. I'm not positive though.


----------



## kpswd

Sally's Mom said:


> Well, HELLO, too young means you don't breed the dog, prelims or not!


Well :wavey: to you too..

What I was trying to say was that MY dog that I purchased was only 20 months old and HE is the one that the breeder had the certifications done on. Those certifications were done for my benefit and piece of mind. He is neutered and will obviously never be bred.


----------



## Sally's Mom

Ok I am dense, thank you.


----------



## Sportingdog

*Just to clarify*

It appears that things got a bit ugly after our post and we wanted to reach back out. We found this site by accident - we did a search on Susan Harb and started reading some of the earlier posts about bad experiences that people had with her. And, we wanted to add our story.

To begin with, we are by no means novice dog owners. We've owned sporting dogs since 1985. In fact, our dog from Harb was not our first golden. But, when our beloved golden passed, we felt (after waiting 1 year) that we were ready for another.

Like others, we found GCK's website appealing and when we visited the property, the size of the kennel was impressive. When we picked up our puppy, we were given a "puppy book" - it was a binder that had pictures of the puppy growing and the vaccinations that Harb had given the dogs. That was it. No pedigrees or health certs of the parents.

We knew we had a problem early on - the dog attacked another dog during an obedience class. After than, we switched to private trainers and then went to "boarding training" where we visited the dog daily to work with him. Nothing helped. Nothing. The dog has attacked my sister's poodle, a neighbor's great dane and all of our other dogs. Since he cannot be trusted, he has a rather sad life. He's kept separate from our other dogs and when they're together, he's muzzled.

We've never had an aggressive dog before and it's been a very sad journey for everyone. I do think there are people who capitalized on the popularity of the breed and aren't as responsible as they should be.

Some here have suggested that AKC breeders or breeders listed on the golden retriever parent club are snobs. I've found just the opposite - these are people who truly love the breed and want to promote healthy, loving dogs.

It's wonderful that many who have posted have had great experience with a Harb dog. We did not. But, we did learn from the experience - always ask to see the health records of both parents. Ask to speak to the veterinarian who works with the breeder. 

Since our GCK dog, we haven't gotten another golden. We're not soured on the breed - they are just lovely and, when bred correctly, are the perfect family dog.


----------



## Pointgold

kpswd said:


> I am new to this forum and live in Raleigh (virtually the same city as Durham where she is located).
> 
> After having a really strong desire for getting a puppy after our last dog passed away, I actually ended up going a different route and ended up getting an "older" puppy. During my research, I came across this forum as well as at one point GCK.
> 
> Going through the process of purchasing a puppy can be a very emotional time for anyone that longs to have a companion. I know that a lot has been said in this forum about people defending GCK and as someone from the "outside" looking in I can picture myself defending her as well if I had purchased a puppy from there years ago that was still healthy and a good companion. Having said that, I respect the breeders that take the time and effort to be selective and only breed dogs that they feel have the right temperament and have health clearances.
> 
> I purchased my first dog 17 years ago and it was from a back yard, high volume breeder. Looking back at it, I would probably consider it being a puppy mill. I have no idea if he had any type of certifications other than the AKC registration that I received. He was without a doubt the best dog anyone could ever have wanted. Even as a puppy he didn't cause much damage to the house and was extremely easy to train. There was not a trick in the book that we couldn't teach him in a day or two, and he knew a lot of them. Something funny that sticks in my mind as I write this is that he would pick berries with us. After watching us pick blackberries off a bush, he walked up to the bush, curled his lips and gently picked the berry with his teeth and came over and put it in my hand. He was extremely intelligent and had an exceptional temperament but....
> 
> He had a LOT of health issues and he was a very sick dog and passed away in surgery when he was 6 years old due to complications associated to his health (The reason for his surgery was not health related). There is NO doubt in my mind that a lot of these issues were known to the breeder if he just cared to look hard enough at the parents/grandparents. To this day I wish that I could have another dog just like him even if he had all those health issues. I know that is a very selfish statement, but that is what an awesome dog he was. I can certainly understand people that defend GCK based on myself having had an exceptional dog that came out of an environment like that (or worse). He was neutered pretty early in life due to his issues and we knew that no matter how much we wanted to have another dog that "came from him", it would have been very irresponsible to breed him.
> 
> I can't even begin to estimate the medical bills that we had that were associated with him, but in the end we really didn't care what it cost us because of how we felt about him.
> 
> It is such an emotional issue and I can understand people "defending" their dogs heritage because we all (well most of us) feel that our dog(s) is the best in the world. It is almost like someone is attacking your children when people talk about your dog is not as good as others since they do not have the health certifications that others do. There are plenty of dogs that grow up to be absolutely wonderful dogs and that live very long and healthy lives that are purebred muts without any kind of certifications.
> 
> Because of my previous experience, I did insist that we TRY to avoid some of the issues that we had with Cosmo. There are NO guarantees in life and even a dog with the healthiest of pedigree can still get sick, but I wanted to get a dog that would give me the best odds on having a healthy dog. Because of this, the price of the dog was not really an issue for us. It would have been cheaper for me to buy a $5,000-$10,000 pedigree dog that had no health issues than what I spent at the vet for Cosmo during his time with us.
> 
> When I was searching difference websites, I found Mikey (NOT from GCK) and we just looked at the pictures and fell in love with the idea of having him come join our family.
> 
> The website stated that all of their dogs are certified before breeding, but I am not sure how well their record keeping worked. One thing that did make us feel more comfortable with the breeder was that they were very open about everything (although it felt a bit disorganized about everything in the beginning). She allowed me as well as my vet to contact her vet to ask any questions that we wanted, allow us access to all of his medical records. In addition, eye and heart certifications, preliminary OFA on hips were done on the puppy/young dog that I purchased. All of these were made available for my vet to look at before we finalized the purchase. He is neutered, so it is not something that was done for breeding purposes, but rather for my benefit to make sure that he was healthy.
> 
> Only time will tell if he stays healthy, but I feel that this time I have done a much better job on my homework. I don't know much about her as a breeder, but I do feel confident in our choice of Mikey. There are things that I would perhaps have done differently, but we were all aching for a 4 legged friend to come in to our lives as soon as possible and he was the one we fell in love with even though he was 1000 miles away.
> 
> I have no doubt that there are people that will have GREAT goldens that will stay healthy and live long lives and come from GCK, but I also know from personal experience how bad it hurts to see your best friend go through as much as our Cosmo did, and it was all because he came from a breeder that didn't care about the hereditary illnesses that he was allowing to continue just so that he could make some money. It is just so hard for me to think that if it wasn't for the breeder, I would never have had Cosmo and that is an experience that I would never have wanted to do without. Truly a double edge sword. In a perfect world, Cosmo would not have been as sick as he was and he would have still been the dog that he was, but that is not the cards that we were dealt. It was a very cruel realization to have found a "perfect" dog, but knowing that he was a very unhealthy dog.
> 
> So if you are considering getting a dog (any breed), please do some research and educate yourself the best way that you know how. Everyone can look back and say that they would have done something differently, but atleast try to educate yourself and ask questions if you have any. I think that the breeder that Mikey came from had to question her sanity as to why she dealt with me just based on all the phone calls and emails that she got from me. It was not a "standard" situation and that made it different than most puppy purchases, but I am thankful that she stuck with me and didn't tire of me or my questions/rants. We now have Mikey and we couldn't be happier.
> 
> Sorry about the long post (and thank you for reading all of it if you made it all the way down here to the end)


Thank you for this post.


----------



## IowaGold

I think it's great that the breeder got those prelims done on a dog that they were going to sell. I hope he has a long and happy life with you!


----------



## Sportingdog

We did - no response


----------



## Pointgold

Thank you for sharing you story. I am sorry that your experience was not a positive one...






Sportingdog said:


> It appears that things got a bit ugly after our post and we wanted to reach back out. We found this site by accident - we did a search on Susan Harb and started reading some of the earlier posts about bad experiences that people had with her. And, we wanted to add our story.
> 
> To begin with, we are by no means novice dog owners. We've owned sporting dogs since 1985. In fact, our dog from Harb was not our first golden. But, when our beloved golden passed, we felt (after waiting 1 year) that we were ready for another.
> 
> Like others, we found GCK's website appealing and when we visited the property, the size of the kennel was impressive. When we picked up our puppy, we were given a "puppy book" - it was a binder that had pictures of the puppy growing and the vaccinations that Harb had given the dogs. That was it. No pedigrees or health certs of the parents.
> 
> We knew we had a problem early on - the dog attacked another dog during an obedience class. After than, we switched to private trainers and then went to "boarding training" where we visited the dog daily to work with him. Nothing helped. Nothing. The dog has attacked my sister's poodle, a neighbor's great dane and all of our other dogs. Since he cannot be trusted, he has a rather sad life. He's kept separate from our other dogs and when they're together, he's muzzled.
> 
> We've never had an aggressive dog before and it's been a very sad journey for everyone. I do think there are people who capitalized on the popularity of the breed and aren't as responsible as they should be.
> 
> Some here have suggested that AKC breeders or breeders listed on the golden retriever parent club are snobs. I've found just the opposite - these are people who truly love the breed and want to promote healthy, loving dogs.
> 
> It's wonderful that many who have posted have had great experience with a Harb dog. We did not. But, we did learn from the experience - always ask to see the health records of both parents. Ask to speak to the veterinarian who works with the breeder.
> 
> Since our GCK dog, we haven't gotten another golden. We're not soured on the breed - they are just lovely and, when bred correctly, are the perfect family dog.


----------



## Judi

It is considerate that you posted this. What others do with this info is up to them. You tried!


----------



## Iamaduck

I bought a puppy from this breeder and all I can do is speak to our experience. We had problems with the puppy and the breeder would not call us back after many attempts. We repeatedly emailed and called for the medical information on our dog and she refused to respond at all. After many attempts. It was so unreal. I have rarely dealt with such an professional business in my entire life. Please really do your research and ask the right questions. This breeder does not provide the health clearances she should about her breed.


----------



## Candor

I am a frequent reader of the threads about Golden Creek kennels over the past several years. I've held my tongue about Golden Creek Kennels and its practices for too long. I am embarrassed to say that I am all too familiar with this type of kennel and its practices. Sure, the facility is beautiful and all the right things are said prior to selling a puppy. But any good fraudster worth their weight in salt knows how to put on a good show. 

The bottom line is that this is a money making business without any concern for the welfare of the dogs or the people who buy them. The dogs that go through this program are seen as nothing more than their ability to add to the Harb's pockets. I'm sure you've noticed that not a single person has been able to come forward and show ANY evidence or proof that any of the dogs in Mrs. Harb's puppy mill have had any clearances done. They cannot do so because there are no clearances. How anyone cannot see this operation as anything more than a glorified puppy mill is beyond my comprehension. 

While people keep reporting that Mrs. Harb loves the dogs, can anyone of these people tell me why she breeds dog as young as 9-10 months old when they have their first heat cycle? Why she breeds these dogs EVERY heat cycle, back to back with no concern for their longterm health? Why she advertises on every low class puppy selling site on the Internet. I though word of mouth was all that she needed? Those of you who foster, has she given your dogs a break, how many litters have they had? 

I can understand Mrs. Harb's reluctance of course. When you have the prospect of making $1000-$1500+ per puppy why would you want to have any fewer than necessary. Can you imagine the money these puppies bring in?


----------



## NCGolden

*Wish we had known better and RUN from Golden Creek*

The affectations about religion and love of dogs makes this whole operation even more deplorable, in my opinion. Exploitative, and to the detriment of these poor dogs and the people who love them. The Harbs appear to love the money, which is fine but a totally different proposition from loving the dogs, despite their marketing.


----------



## NCGolden

Totally agree. The number number of females they are breeding is staggering.......how can this be considered anything other than a sanitized, expensive puppy mill? And under the guise of love for the animals and for God! Though I am embarrassed to admit there's a sucker like me born every minute, and we adored our dog, problems and all. I have just seen a sweet, young male who is a cast-off product of theirs now....wracked with seizures and possibly with hip issues.


----------



## NCGolden

rpeoples said:


> This is my first and most probably last post on this board! I'm not sure whether to cry or throw up at the hate and vile comments that have been posted in this thread.
> 
> First - I am a proud Mom to 2 - yes TWO beautiful GCK goldens! An eight year old and a five year old. When the time comes that we lose one of our precious pups, I have no, absolutely NO, HESITATION of returning to GCK and to Susan Harb for our next dog.
> With our first goldens, we were not the most informed of pet owners and I'm sure that our Ezmerelda and Sampson were the result of puppy mill breeding. It didn't change the fact, though, that we loved them and were devastated in their passing. When the time came to adopt a new family member, we were fortunate to find Susan Harb and GCK. Our experiences were wonderful!
> This woman loves goldens and loves the joy that here dogs bring to their adoptive families. For that reason, we returned when it was time to add to our family.
> Her kennel is impeccable and her "foster" program ensures that her dogs live in a loving and caring environment for their entire lives. Litters are celebrated and when the time comes, the mothers are retired to live out their lives with their adoptive families. Even suggesting that what she does is REMOTELY like a puppy mill is simply VILE and untrue. I would suggest you get the facts before spouting lies!
> I've seen her take back full grown dogs because they "don't fit with the family's lifestyle" and then work tirelessly to find the right home for them.
> I've enjoyed bringing my guys home for the monthly Open House! I have enjoyed spending time with those foster families that have been chastised on this very board.
> To the original poster - maybe you aren't cut out to be a golden owner. How about trying a ferret instead...or maybe a pit viper.
> 
> And as far as bad breeders posting "glowing reports about themselves"....why don't you look into bad breeders posting lies about others....there is a saying that if you can't be successful yourself, the next best thing is to undermine the competition!!!!!!


Glad your experience is good and suggest that nothing anyone appears to say here has anything to do with the innate worth of these (or any) dogs, or the fact that people love them. The anger and disapproval you see here is a product of the clarity with which some people understand that these aggressive breeding practices are corrosive to the interests of the dogs, the breed, and the people who love them. Some people have views about the morality of it as well; individual views. I am not a breeder and I adored the dog we got from Golden Creek, problems and all. We were naive and swept away by the beauty of those dogs. It took time, in the face of all that, to understand what is wrong at the core of it. My considered opinion.


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## AlanK

Welcome NCGolden. Sorry you found our forum under such sad circumstances. A big part of our community here is to put information like this out there and hopefully help others make wise decisions when purchasing a puppy. A few years ago until I met this group I was clueless about proper breeding.


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## NCGolden

Thanks, and I will be a source of more positive posts than the ones I've put up this morning! Look forward to learning from all the Golden fans on here.


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## Ocean's mom

I read this whole post last night, and I am not even sure how I feel about it. 

*To original poster*: the fact that your puppy was more aggressive and dominant is not breeder's fault, in my opinion. Maybe a fault of suggesting a wrong type of puppy, or you not spending enough time observing before deciding that the puppy was right for you. I have a friend who wanted alpha male, and 3 years later it almost led to divorce in the family. Clearly, they made a mistake in choosing the personality for their golden and had super hard time living with that dog. 

I understand why people are having issue with higher volume breeders. I personally feel the "foster program" is a wonderful thing. A deserving loving family gets a puppy free of charge to raise, to love, to enjoy, to spoil in exchange of agreeing to get her/him bred 2-3 times in a life span. I think it's a win-win situation for everyone. I am in a business line myself where people are always having issues with high volume vs low volume. And it's just a matter of opinion, nobody is right or wrong.

Ocean is our second golden. And this time the pup came from GCK. Right now I am rather scared and confused about the lack of health clearances - we have vet's appointment on Friday, and I am going to talk to them about it. I am not sure how I could miss this, ugh! The whole reason we spent the money vs rescuing/adopting a dog was health and not having those issues int he future. I emailed Susan, and hopefully she will get back to me - I live 10minutes from them and can drop by any time. So as a business owner myself, I do not see the reason to hide from their customers. But Ocean is exactly the kind of dog we wanted - relaxed, chill, very submissive and if I am too busy (I work from home), she just minds her own business. She has been great with crate training, amazing around kids and other dogs. We go to a puppy class at local dogs training school, and she is great and learns so fast. I am very happy with her, but I am not going to hide it - I am afraid what future holds for her health....


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## DaisyGolden

More than a few people on here myself included got a golden without knowing about health clearances and you can only do the best you know how to do at the time. I'm glad that you get why people here have a problem with this breeder and that it isn't personal but it has to do with the fact that she isn't doing what is best for the dogs. I'm glad that you have a dog that you're happy with and I hope she stays in the best of health. Welcome to the forum.


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## Candor

Ocean's mom said:


> I read this whole post last night, and I am not even sure how I feel about it.
> 
> *To original poster*: the fact that your puppy was more aggressive and dominant is not breeder's fault, in my opinion. Maybe a fault of suggesting a wrong type of puppy, or you not spending enough time observing before deciding that the puppy was right for you. I have a friend who wanted alpha male, and 3 years later it almost led to divorce in the family. Clearly, they made a mistake in choosing the personality for their golden and had super hard time living with that dog.
> 
> I understand why people are having issue with higher volume breeders. I personally feel the "foster program" is a wonderful thing. A deserving loving family gets a puppy free of charge to raise, to love, to enjoy, to spoil in exchange of agreeing to get her/him bred 2-3 times in a life span. I think it's a win-win situation for everyone. I am in a business line myself where people are always having issues with high volume vs low volume. And it's just a matter of opinion, nobody is right or wrong.
> 
> Ocean is our second golden. And this time the pup came from GCK. Right now I am rather scared and confused about the lack of health clearances - we have vet's appointment on Friday, and I am going to talk to them about it. I am not sure how I could miss this, ugh! The whole reason we spent the money vs rescuing/adopting a dog was health and not having those issues int he future. I emailed Susan, and hopefully she will get back to me - I live 10minutes from them and can drop by any time. So as a business owner myself, I do not see the reason to hide from their customers. But Ocean is exactly the kind of dog we wanted - relaxed, chill, very submissive and if I am too busy (I work from home), she just minds her own business. She has been great with crate training, amazing around kids and other dogs. We go to a puppy class at local dogs training school, and she is great and learns so fast. I am very happy with her, but I am not going to hide it - I am afraid what future holds for her health....



Good luck with getting a reply from Mrs. Harb. Experience shows that once someone questions her breeding practices, she stops responding to them. Please do let the boards know if you get any kind of response from her. As far as her only breeding a dog 2-3 times, that is simply not the case. Mrs. Harb breeds her dogs every heat cycle until they are 5-6 years old. Often at their very first heat cycle when they are still puppies. There is nothing win-win here, except for the money that rolls in to the Harbs. 

I wish you the best for your pups health. I truly hope that all is well with your pup and you take this experience, learn from it and educate others.


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## nolefan

Candor said:


> I wish you the best for your pups health. I truly hope that all is well with your pup and you take this experience, learn from it and educate others.


This is excellent, the best we can all do is to spread the knowledge we've gained. Anyone who ever starts a conversation with me about acquiring any breed of dog gets a comment from me about what I've learned about the huge importance of health clearances for any breed. It won't help everyone, but it's the only place to start.


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## Ocean's mom

It's now been almost 6 months since we got our puppy. She is truly beautiful, smart, loving, just the best you could ask for in a family pet. We had x-rays and full blood panel done at spaying, and so far seems everything in great shape. We get lots of compliments everywhere we go, and people ask where we got her from and how come she is so well behaved etc. I always ALWAYS make sure to mentioned Golden Creek kennels, and emphasize NOT to buy from them.ever.

I also met a lot of local people who surprisingly (just like us) did not realize it was not an honest and good breeder to purchase a puppy from. Did you know foster families have to sign a contract to agree to pay her $50K in case something happens to foster dog??? I heard stories about Susan refunding money after people discovered their dogs was going blind or being diagnosed with hip displaysia - and I am assuming lawyers had to be mentioned.... I heard stories about vets contacting Susan, sending certified letters about NOT to breed certain two dogs due to health issues in their off-springs only to find out that same couple had a few more litters already... There are couple vet surgeons at NCSU Vet school who have done more Susan dogs hip surgeries that they thought it was ever possible..... Just amazing how big her evil spread....

She does host those amazing dog get-togethers on her property - my kids have been asking to go there. But I am assuming only "blind" people can go back and be nice to that b*tch.....


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## mike409

For some reason my posts on this thread were deleted.

I purchased a puppy from them in 12/2004. We just put him to sleep on 2.12.12, he was 8 years and 3.5 months old.

When he(Jake) was about 20 months old, he was diagnosed with HD. The vet pointed out to us, that if we put our hands on Jakes back, as he walked, his hips clicked. Sure enough, they did.

I tried calling GCK several times. Each time, I got their voicemail and each time I left messages to call me. The last three times I called, I made it clear that Jake was diagnosed with HD. NEVER, ever, did I receive a return phone call. So, I started emailing them, no less then a dozen times. Still no response.

Jake was on various medications and supplements for his hips throughout the years. A few weeks ago, he was diagnosed with Lymphoma and was put out of his misery for it. Once again, several voice mails and emails were left and nothing. Not even as much as "I'm sorry".

I was just on the Better Business Bureau website and they have an A+ rating. What a shame. I will admit, I never once thought of filing a complaint with the BBB. Maybe, I'll do just that.

So, I'm here to say, it is of my opinion to steer away from GCK's.


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## AlanK

mike409 said:


> For some reason my posts on this thread were deleted.


There is a similar thread (http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...eder-puppy/55348-golden-creek-kennels-nc.html) that you have some posts in. 

I did not see where any of yours were deleted from this thread.


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## NewDogOwner

I am really happy to have found this forum. I was moments away from putting down a deposit at Golden Creek and am ashamed that I did not do my research. I really am usually better than that. I will be taking more time from here on out to ensure that I find a reputable breeder. I realize that I can search the forums, but if anyone cares to comment on a good breeder of English Creams in NC, SC, or VA, I would greatly appreciate it.


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## Wagners Mom2

NewDogOwner said:


> I am really happy to have found this forum. I was moments away from putting down a deposit at Golden Creek and am ashamed that I did not do my research. I really am usuallt is y better than that. I will be taking more time from here on out to ensure that I find a reputable breeder. I realize that I can search the forums, but if anyone cares to comment on a good breeder of English Creams in NC, SC, or VA, I would greatly appreciate it.


If you'll look a thread or so below this one--there is a topic on breeder recommendations on the East Coast--and many are in NC and SC because that is where the OP is.

I know where you're coming from. I have been casually looking for a breeder and I had my eye on Golden Creek. Even mentioned them in the thread below and was kindly directed to this link (and one more) warning about them and their practices. Scary. 

I've looked at a few of the other suggestions and found some that definitely spark my interest, so maybe you will too. 

Best of luck to you in finding your baby!


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## golden_eclipse

I think a good start is to not use the word "creme" to describe a golden when in search for a golden. Not that the color is a bad thing (Aside from the standard calling for shades of gold, and extreme pale or red will be faulted), but if you are a looking for a breeder; breeding for color, you aren't going to find a reputable breeder, they are simply incompatible. This website is a good place to start for an "English style" golden: English Goldens in North America - Litters - Breeders - Stud Dogs . I would become familiar with the next two websites as well the National breed club : Golden Retriever Club of America - AKC National Breed Club (the code of ethics are of particular importance when looking for a golden) and the Orthopedic foundation for animals Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (which has a searchable database of health clearances). Read as much as you have time to and ask questions and you'll be an expert before you know it!


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## NewDogOwner

*Thank you.*

Thank you for the advice. As far as referring to them as "Cream," I was only basing that off of a few things I had read about English Golden's potentially having fewer health problems. I am not too concerned with the color. I just want a healthy companion for my family. However, I do realize that a reputable breeder will do everything they can to keep the breed healthy, so I think we will focus more on finding the right breeder and parents of our new family addition, regardless of whether they are American or English. Thanks again.


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## nolefan

NewDogOwner said:


> Thank you for the advice. As far as referring to them as "Cream," I was only basing that off of a few things I had read about English Golden's potentially having fewer health problems. I am not too concerned with the color. I just want a healthy companion for my family. However, I do realize that a reputable breeder will do everything they can to keep the breed healthy, so I think we will focus more on finding the right breeder and parents of our new family addition, regardless of whether they are American or English. Thanks again.


I'm glad you found this forum. There is a wealth of useful information here about goldens. You can use the 'search feature' at the top of the page and enter just about every subject imaginable pertaining to goldens and find it has been discussed here. The European lines of goldens are not any more healthy than American lines, you will find that discussed here also. 

I'm so glad that you don't have your heart set on a particular shade of color and that you are willing to drive a little bit. It's ok to like what you like, but if you are flexible, it will make it SO much easier to find a really nice breeder.


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## tippykayak

NewDogOwner said:


> Thank you for the advice. As far as referring to them as "Cream," I was only basing that off of a few things I had read about English Golden's potentially having fewer health problems. I am not too concerned with the color. I just want a healthy companion for my family. However, I do realize that a reputable breeder will do everything they can to keep the breed healthy, so I think we will focus more on finding the right breeder and parents of our new family addition, regardless of whether they are American or English. Thanks again.


Alas, the claim that English or "cream" Goldens are somehow healthier is bogus. If there were a kind of Golden that had significantly better health overall, we'd all switch over in a heartbeat. 

In fact, the same breeders who claim that their "English" (usually eastern European, actually) Goldens are healthier are typically also the people that skip the health clearances that actually make litters healthier in the long run. If somebody is willing to tell the lie that they breed a magic kind of Golden that has better health, they're usually also willing to skimp on the other ethical parts of breeding.

There is no magic line of Goldens or style of Goldens with overall better health and longevity. A breeder who follows the GRCA's guidelines as a bare minimum is going to produce the healthiest, longest-lived dogs. A great breeder, of course, goes far beyond these minimums. A great breeder can talk about the longevity in the pedigree, the incidence of health issues, and can of course show you hip, heart, elbow, and eye clearances on their breeding dogs and typically on many generations of the ancestors of those breeding dogs.

Health and longevity are the primary concern for a great breeder, regardless of what style Golden they breed.

The best way to find a great breeder is to start with your local GR club and to ask for referrals. Then, compare the breeders you hear about that to the GRCA standards for a good breeder. We can actually help you verify the clearances since all but one of the major clearance registries for Goldens runs an online database where you can verify things. Just come back and ask for help once you have some names or litters to look at.


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## NCGolden

*Excellent breeder in NC*

We have done our homework and have located an incredible woman in Stokesdale who is an excellent and particular breeder of Golden's. She is attentive to all the right things and we happen to know she has two litters right now (unusual for her, as it's a very small operation). We too are disgusted at the Susan and Crawford Harb operation at Golden Creek Kennels and join the chorus of people who urge buyers to beware. One of the recent terribly sad outcomes with a Neuse River Golden Retriever Rescue dog was a product of her shop---yet another reminder to me. I am not sure if the rules of this Forum allow me to name the breeder in Stokesdale, and I would need to check with her to be sure it's ok with her as well, but I'm happy to do that if it helps someone. We have visited her place and fell in love with her dogs and with her---she is top notch.


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## In touch

I know this is an old subject, but we are dealing with a sick puppy from GCK now and it is very heartbreaking and stressful. We think he has ichthyosis (tests results are still out). We picked him up on Christmas eve and took him to the vet 2 days later and found out he had stomach issues (coccidya and giardea (sp?) along with what looked like a bad skin infection. A month later we are still trying to figure out what is wrong and we are down to ichthyosis (a genetic skin disorder). We love the puppy, but the fact is we should have gotten a healthy puppy. Has anyone else had a similiar experience?


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## tippykayak

In touch said:


> I know this is an old subject, but we are dealing with a sick puppy from GCK now and it is very heartbreaking and stressful. We think he has ichthyosis (tests results are still out). We picked him up on Christmas eve and took him to the vet 2 days later and found out he had stomach issues (coccidya and giardea (sp?) along with what looked like a bad skin infection. A month later we are still trying to figure out what is wrong and we are down to ichthyosis (a genetic skin disorder). We love the puppy, but the fact is we should have gotten a healthy puppy. Has anyone else had a similiar experience?


Just FYI - Coccidia and giardia are _incredibly_ common in puppies. That, by itself, doesn't necessarily mean the breeder screwed anything up. In fact, sometimes the pups are carrying the parasites with no symptoms, and then the stress of driving home with a new family and starting at a new home brings out the symptoms. So, on its own, I wouldn't fault a breeder for that.

However, many of the other criticisms of this breeder are legitimate, and selling a puppy with a skin infection is a no-no (unless, if course, you let the buyer know and coordinate about treatment). There's also a genetic test for ichthyosis now that is becoming more and more popular among good breeders. In many puppies, the disease shows up simply as an excess of dandruff that they mostly grow out of, but it can be quite serious in some cases, so more and more breeders are testing. 

I'm sorry you're having such a bad first month with your pup! Stick around the forum. There are many of us who've dealt with giardia and/or coccidia in puppies, and there are several members whose dogs have ichthyosis, from mild to severe. 

Don't be afraid to start your own thread with questions about the parasites and/or the skin issues. These things are highly treatable, and I speak from a very bad experience with puppy giardia a decade ago that I now look back on and laugh. It was gross and stressful, but that dog got over it and was a faithful and true companion to me for years.


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## Golden922

Susan Harb is scary. She has our deposit. Won't give it back. My husband said she is a glorified puppy mill. How can you have 42 puppies ready to go home at Christmas without saying Puppy Mill? She is a sales person. We gave a deposit before I did the research. She said too bad. You signed an agreement. Problem is I didn't sign anything except a cc receipt. I wonder whatever happened to the puppy with the crooked foot? She posted on her website then never heard another word.


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## Millie'sMom

Golden922 said:


> Susan Harb is scary. She has our deposit. Won't give it back... Problem is I didn't sign anything except a cc receipt.[/QUOTE]
> 
> You have may have recourse through your credit card company.


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## mylissyk

Golden922 said:


> Susan Harb is scary. She has our deposit. Won't give it back. My husband said she is a glorified puppy mill. How can you have 42 puppies ready to go home at Christmas without saying Puppy Mill? She is a sales person. We gave a deposit before I did the research. She said too bad. You signed an agreement. Problem is I didn't sign anything except a cc receipt. I wonder whatever happened to the puppy with the crooked foot? She posted on her website then never heard another word.


Contact your credit card company to get your money back.


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## greencountrygoldens

I agree that registered names and health clearances should be established before the pup's are sent away with a new family...hate that this happened.


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## greencountrygoldens

Golden922 said:


> Susan Harb is scary. She has our deposit. Won't give it back. My husband said she is a glorified puppy mill. How can you have 42 puppies ready to go home at Christmas without saying Puppy Mill? She is a sales person. We gave a deposit before I did the research. She said too bad. You signed an agreement. Problem is I didn't sign anything except a cc receipt. I wonder whatever happened to the puppy with the crooked foot? She posted on her website then never heard another word.


Wow! So sorry for your experience, this is terrible, what a bad name she is putting on such a joyful experience you all were expecting. I would also do as the others have said and call your credit card company, they can investigate this and it might force her to do the right thing.


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## Linzi

*Got one of my boys from GCK-Help!*

I got Marley when he was 10 weeks old from GCK. He is 2.5 years old now and was just diagnosed with hip dysplasia. His surgeon says he will need a hip replacement at some point. We are doing everything we can to prolong it and keep him healthy and comfortable.

I honestly thought GCK was a great place but I am learning about the clearances and problems people have had and am very upset.

Can anyone give me advice on any other issues I should have our vet check for on my poor boy?

I did speak with Susan when he was diagnosed and she said he was the second puppy from the same mom and dad with his dysplasia and his parents will now be retired.

Thanks for any info! I love my 3 boys and would do anything for them. I just adopted my third over the weekend. I drove to Georgia. He is 1 year old and did not pass his eye test for breeding so he became "disposable" to the breeder (not GCK). He has cataracts in both eyes and I adopted him knowing he may need cataract surgery at some point. It kills me that anyone would feel this way about a dog. To me, his cataracts are a blessing because that means he will NOT be used for breeding and he will have a happy life and loving home with us.

My (almost) 6 year old Golden has Crohn's Disease (IBD) and has had surgery once and is doing great now. Many vets told us to put him down as a puppy but we refused until we got it figured out and now hes great with his special diet and meds!


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## Lucysmom2013

*GCK dog just died at 3 years old after many issues*

All,

My sweet English Golden who I adopted from GCK just died three weeks ago. She was only three years old. Even before she was 4 months old they detected a heart murmur (which went away) and arthritis (which persisted.) Before she was even two years old she needed two TPLO surgeries due to ruptured canine-equivalent ACLs....no injury causing them. Then two months after the last ACL surgery she was diagnosed with Thomobocytopenia. This is an auto immune condition where the immune system attacks its own platelets, causing a low platelet count, clotting inability and spontaneous bleeding, and petichie. After 4 days in ICU, then months on steroids and all of the awful side effects of those meds, she did okay on low activity for just over a year, then relapsed. Her Thrombcytopenia returned. Meds again. Bad sad effects. Anxiety for her, peeing, constant thirst, constant panting. Just when the specialist thought she was getting better and we began to gradually taper off the steroids, she began collapsing. After many tests, they decided it was a blood clot in her brain causing neurological symptoms and possibly seizures. There was nothing they could do at this point given her other condition. It was heart breaking and still is. If anyone else has a dog from GCK who has had similar experiences, please do contact me. She was out of Silas (sire) and Skylar (mom). Born June 4 2010. It is so heart breaking because despite all of her health challenges, she was the sweetest, friendliest and most loving dog. Grieving and missing her enormously.


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## SheetsSM

Lucysmom2013, so very sorry for the loss of your girl!


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## Lucysmom2013

*Thank you Sheets SM*

I appreciate your response. It is very hard right now. Thanks for your thoughtfulness.


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## Sally's Mom

Lucysmom 2013, so sorry for your loss...


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## nolefan

Lucysmom, my heart goes out to you on the loss of your sweet girl. I am so very sorry for all that both of you went through.


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## Sirfoulhook

Good Grief what a sad deal. Sorry for your loss


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## Toriaroo

Oh wow, that's so heartbreaking. I'm so sorry.


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## Sirfoulhook

You know it's funny how these questionable breeders will tell you "don't worry about it I've got a guarantee." Yeah like you would send your dog away after two years. They know people who get the dog would never return them. I know I wouldn't.


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## CAROLINA MOM

Lucysmom2013, I am so very sorry for the loss of your girl. 

My thoughts and prayers go out to you.


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## MercyMom

Lucysmom2013 said:


> All,
> 
> My sweet English Golden who I adopted from GCK just died three weeks ago. She was only three years old. Even before she was 4 months old they detected a heart murmur (which went away) and arthritis (which persisted.) Before she was even two years old she needed two TPLO surgeries due to ruptured canine-equivalent ACLs....no injury causing them. Then two months after the last ACL surgery she was diagnosed with Thomobocytopenia. This is an auto immune condition where the immune system attacks its own platelets, causing a low platelet count, clotting inability and spontaneous bleeding, and petichie. After 4 days in ICU, then months on steroids and all of the awful side effects of those meds, she did okay on low activity for just over a year, then relapsed. Her Thrombcytopenia returned. Meds again. Bad sad effects. Anxiety for her, peeing, constant thirst, constant panting. Just when the specialist thought she was getting better and we began to gradually taper off the steroids, she began collapsing. After many tests, they decided it was a blood clot in her brain causing neurological symptoms and possibly seizures. There was nothing they could do at this point given her other condition. It was heart breaking and still is. If anyone else has a dog from GCK who has had similar experiences, please do contact me. She was out of Silas (sire) and Skylar (mom). Born June 4 2010. It is so heart breaking because despite all of her health challenges, she was the sweetest, friendliest and most loving dog. Grieving and missing her enormously.


I am so sorry for the loss of your dear Lucy. My heart breaks for you. May the memories of Lucy live on in your heart forever.


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## fostermom

It's interesting, their website is down and it appears their email address is not working either according to a post on their FB page. No recent posts from the owners on the FB page, either.


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## MaggieGraham

I am looking for a female puppy and went to the Golden Creek website. E-mailed her three times and left a message once, no answers. I just happened to get her and she said that I could find out how to be a foster parent at their open house the next day, which I could not attend. I don't think I am going to pursue this breeder anymore.


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## Ritch

Hi all, we are in the market for another Golden... we recently lost our beloved Male Golden to cancer at 11 years and 9 months old. He was the best dog ever and loved
by all who knew him. It has left a huge hole in our hearts. We have a 6 year old yellow lab who is missing her companion and brother. She is depressed. 
We know a woman who bought an English Cream from Y - Rock Ranch out in Arizona
and has a new great dog and raved about the experience of dealing with Y-Rock.
Has anyone heard of them ? And if so what ?


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## tippykayak

Ritch said:


> Hi all, we are in the market for another Golden... we recently lost our beloved Male Golden to cancer at 11 years and 9 months old. He was the best dog ever and loved
> by all who knew him. It has left a huge hole in our hearts. We have a 6 year old yellow lab who is missing her companion and brother. She is depressed.
> We know a woman who bought an English Cream from Y - Rock Ranch out in Arizona
> and has a new great dog and raved about the experience of dealing with Y-Rock.
> Has anyone heard of them ? And if so what ?


Y-Rock has been discussed many times on the forum before, and significant problems were noted, particularly in terms of missing clearances. Perhaps things have improved since then, but I'd be very careful to do your homework before committing to them. They appear to be part of a network of breeders selling light-colored dogs from questionable sources.

Here are a couple of threads discussing these problems:

#1

#2

If your questions aren't answered in the threads I linked, consider starting a thread of your own to ask questions about the specific breeder and/or litter you're interested in. Forum members can help you look up clearances and verify breeders' claims.


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## LJack

I am in Arizona and would not recommend them.:no:


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## mistersam

*AKC vs Non AKC*

Hi - I work with the most wonderful vet in the DC area and just had a discussion with her regarding cancer incidence in golden's. In her 25+ years in practice she claims that there is not a higher incidence of cancers among AKC goldens vs non AKC goldens - it's equally high among both groups. A client of mine - also a vet makes the same claim - cancer is high among golden's regardless of whether their parents obtained the AKC clearance or not. Same for the other ailments as well - hip, elbow, heart mumur etc. Two goldens - one male and one female with AKC clearance will breed and their entire litter has problems - it's happened. It would make sense that obtaining a clearance for both parents would reduce the risk of illnesses in the litter - but again according to two seasoned vets - they don't see that in their practices.


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## Sally's Mom

mistersam said:


> Hi - I work with the most wonderful vet in the DC area and just had a discussion with her regarding cancer incidence in golden's. In her 25+ years in practice she claims that there is not a higher incidence of cancers among AKC goldens vs non AKC goldens - it's equally high among both groups. A client of mine - also a vet makes the same claim - cancer is high among golden's regardless of whether their parents obtained the AKC clearance or not. Same for the other ailments as well - hip, elbow, heart mumur etc. Two goldens - one male and one female with AKC clearance will breed and their entire litter has problems - it's happened. It would make sense that obtaining a clearance for both parents would reduce the risk of illnesses in the litter - but again according to two seasoned vets - they don't see that in their practices.


Am I totally dim? What is the point ?


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## KeaColorado

mistersam said:


> Hi - I work with the most wonderful vet in the DC area and just had a discussion with her regarding cancer incidence in golden's. In her 25+ years in practice she claims that there is not a higher incidence of cancers among AKC goldens vs non AKC goldens - it's equally high among both groups. A client of mine - also a vet makes the same claim - cancer is high among golden's regardless of whether their parents obtained the AKC clearance or not. Same for the other ailments as well - hip, elbow, heart mumur etc. Two goldens - one male and one female with AKC clearance will breed and their entire litter has problems - it's happened. It would make sense that obtaining a clearance for both parents would reduce the risk of illnesses in the litter - but again according to two seasoned vets - they don't see that in their practices.



Clearances are not the same as AKC registration papers, if that's what you're referring to. I have never heard of an "AKC clearance". There is certainly no clearance for cancer.


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## tippykayak

mistersam said:


> Hi - I work with the most wonderful vet in the DC area and just had a discussion with her regarding cancer incidence in golden's. In her 25+ years in practice she claims that there is not a higher incidence of cancers among AKC goldens vs non AKC goldens - it's equally high among both groups. A client of mine - also a vet makes the same claim - cancer is high among golden's regardless of whether their parents obtained the AKC clearance or not. Same for the other ailments as well - hip, elbow, heart mumur etc. Two goldens - one male and one female with AKC clearance will breed and their entire litter has problems - it's happened. It would make sense that obtaining a clearance for both parents would reduce the risk of illnesses in the litter - but again according to two seasoned vets - they don't see that in their practices.


There is no clearance for cancer, and clearances aren't "AKC."

However, if your vets say that hip, elbow, and heart clearances don't work, they are contradicting a very clear, extensive body of evidence that says that they do. Just clearing the parents alone cuts elbow and hip dysplasia risk by about half. More clearances obviously helps even more.

If you are saying that AKC _registration_ is no protection against cancer or other health issues, you're quite right. AKC registration is simply a certified record of the ancestry of a dog. It's an important piece of putting together the health puzzle, but it's not any kind of certification of health on its own, and it does not claim to be.

On the subject of cancer, we do not know what the factors are that cause the common cancers in any dog, including Goldens, so there's no way to effectively assess or control risk, beyond doing what good breeders do, which is to pore over the whole ancestry to look for longevity and to try to avoid cancer clusters. We don't know how well that works, but it's certainly better than not knowing your dog's ancestors. My vet agility buddy thinks that researchers are very close to identifying genetic cancer markers so we truly can lower cancer risks the way good breeders have lowered other issues with identified genetic markers, but that has not been accomplished yet.


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## mistersam

Thanks Tippykayak - Good analysis - I apologize as I was using the terms "clearance" and "registration" to mean the same thing. So my point was that a lot of dog buyers in general think that AKC registered puppies mean *good quality / good health* and there are certainly breeders who convey that eroneous message to their prospects. To get registration papers or a pedigree, a dog doesn't need to meet any qualifications of health, temperament, behavior, or sound structure. The vets I have spoken with do not see a health difference between AKC registered goldens and non-registered AKC goldens. I only mention this on the forum because there was a complaint that Ms Harb lost her AKC status - if she is breeding dogs for pets and not for show then why would this matter? I have read a few of the threads of those folks who have had a bad experience with this breeder and my heart goes out to you - *truly* - I can't imagine dealing with a sick puppy and then have them pass away at an early age...I have visited GCK during a few of their open houses and Ms Harb certainly does not hide behind the fact that her pups are not AKC registered. She also seems to be transparent with the type of business she runs - she doesn't necessarily hide behind the fact that she fosters males / females and produces a certain amount of litters per year. I appreciate a breeder who opens their home to the public. I don't see a lot of complaints from the fosters either....My husband and I are currently looking for a golden but have not purchased from Ms. Harb just yet - still deciding. My sister has a GCK golden and has never had a problem hearing from Ms. Harb when she's had questions throughout the years. My sister's GCK golden is almost six years old and he has been a perfect dog in terms of temperment and health but I will admit - reading some of these threads though has made me think twice about getting a puppy from GCK.


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## Selli-Belle

I think comparing AKC registered Goldens to non-registered Goldens is a very tricky thing. For one thing, how do you know a non-registered Golden is a purebred Golden? I have a friend who had a dog who looked exactly like a Golden who was actually a Golden/Lab mix (the dog came from my friend's mother-in-law and they owned both parents). The Lab part was said to be a purebred, but was himself likely a Lab/Golden mix. A Lab/Golden mix usually produces a dog that looks almost exactly like a Lab since a long coat is recessive. In that case comparing health outcomes is like comparing apples and oranges. My friend's dog passed away from hemangio (cancer) at 11 y.o., but my favorite Lab passed away a few months ago also from hemangio at 12 y.o..

The second point is that I imagine most "non-registered" Goldens actually are the product of registered dogs. For some reason, like their registration privileges have been revoked by the AKC or they are breeding dogs on limited registrations (whose offspring can't be registered). So there is no difference in the genetic of the two groups.

I don't think anyone on the forum argues that a dog simply being registered by the AKC insures quality or health, which is why we always harp on the breeders doing health clearances. While there is the possibility of someone who does all the recommended health clearances and extensive pedigree research when planning a litter who has non-registered dogs they are breeding, no one has ever been able to find one.


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## tippykayak

mistersam said:


> The vets I have spoken with do not see a health difference between AKC registered goldens and non-registered AKC goldens. I only mention this on the forum because there was a complaint that Ms Harb lost her AKC status - if she is breeding dogs for pets and not for show then why would this matter?


Well, it takes pretty egregious violations to lose your AKC status. I have no idea what Ms. Harb's particular situation is, but breeders can lose it because of poor or fraudulent record keeping, which is obviously something you want to avoid, whether or not you're showing a dog. You can also lose it for not taking good care of your dogs, and the AKC's bar is relatively low for that.

So a loss of the ability to register your dogs with the AKC is something that should definitely matter to pet people. Being registered doesn't really affect a pet's life much, at least directly, but there are absolutely reasons you want to be sure of ancestry and reasons to be concerned if somebody is suspended by the AKC.


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## DixieM14

This forum saved me from making a horrible mistake! I called with credit card in hand to put down a deposit for 2 pups from GCK! Thank you to everyone who posted in this forum about this breeder. I am truly thankful!


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## Prism Goldens

When a breeder such as this loses AKC registration privileges (and it is a privilege, not a right) they of course go to some other registry- in order to continue breeding dogs. It's neither here nor there if a dog is a future show dog or not, all puppies should be given the benefit of having parents who have health clearances, and should be raised as specially as a show dog is raised. The job of being a beloved pet is an important one, and people who want to keep that pet as long as they can possibly keep them will search for a breeder who hedges possible health issues by only using parents who have health clearances. I'm glad for you, DixieM14, just look and you will find a good breeder that you can rely on for the life of your future dogs.


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## DixieM14

Thank you Prism Goldens! I really appreciate your thoughts.  I have learned so much in researching breeders the past few weeks. Although I'd like a puppy today, I know I have to be faithful, diligent and most of all patient while I do my breeder research. I hope that this forum will help me find a reputable breeder in FL that will have good puppies soon. Merry Christmas!


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## Tian

We just had to say goodbye to our 8 year old Golden from GCK after several years of serious health issues. Our 5 children are heartbroken, as are we. I did not know enough at the time when we purchased a dog from her, to check clearances. I sure wish I had. I'm thankful for this forum as I'm learning so much. I'll be much more careful the next time. We loved her dearly no matter what, but she was much too young to suffer from poor health due to poor breeding practices. If anyone has a recommendation for a breeder in the NE, we would really appreciate it.


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## Prism Goldens

I'm sorry for your loss - they never stay with us long enough.

I think you should start a new thread looking for a breeder in your area and that way no one will be thrown off by how long this thread is, and your responses will be all your own!


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## CAROLINA MOM

Tian said:


> We just had to say goodbye to our 8 year old Golden from GCK after several years of serious health issues. Our 5 children are heartbroken, as are we. I did not know enough at the time when we purchased a dog from her, to check clearances. I sure wish I had. I'm thankful for this forum as I'm learning so much. I'll be much more careful the next time. We loved her dearly no matter what, but she was much too young to suffer from poor health due to poor breeding practices. If anyone has a recommendation for a breeder in the NE, we would really appreciate it.


Welcome to the forum. 
I'm very sorry for the loss of your Golden and the health issues she/he had. 

I agree, if you want to start a thread in Choosing a Golden Retriever Breeder and puppy section stating the areas you are looking for a Breeder/pup, members will be able to provide you with referrals and answer questions you may have. 

You can also do a search here on the forum for the States you're looking for a pup in, threads will come up you can read through. 

Hope you enjoy the forum, best of luck in your search.


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## Tian

Thank you! We are so happily waiting for our new puppy..joining our family next month! 
As for GCK, we loved our girl more than anything! She was gorgeous and smart. BUT..she suffered. She had numerous allergies and also started having daily seizures(Epilepsy) at the age of 5. Heartbreaking. And soon thereafter she was dx with hemangisarcoma. Even more suffering. It broke our hearts..for her. We lost her at the age of 8.
As much as we loved her, we now realize that she was not bred responsibly by someone who truly loves the breed. We were taken in by the lovely website.
I'm thankful for this forum and all I've learned from it. I realize that the posters here were not putting down our GCK dog, but trying to protect future dogs from having to suffer with health issues as she did.
We chose our current breeder by looking for the standards we learned about here and also by looking for and knowing how to understand the clearances and health histories.
Our current breeder extends so much time and energy with this litter, socializing, exposing them to new sights and sounds and surfaces daily, early training, etc. I'm certain that with all she does, there will be no money made. The love and care she has for her puppies is transparent. She is constantly sharing updates, videos, photos.
As for Susan GCK, we never heard back from her when we shared what happened with our dog from her. Actually, we never once heard from her once we brought our puppy home.
I looked back yesterday at the "updates" we received from her while we waited 8 years ago. They were extremely generic, no doubt sent out for every litter. And....each of them had a sales pitch in it with a link to buy the recommended item..through her. That in and of itself speaks volumes.
I'll never regret loving our GCK girl but would never support another breeding from there.


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## debbiedyar1

If Golden Creek Kennel is such a horrible place why are there not more reports on BBB - just curious. Any good news from anyone getting a puppy from them


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## G-bear

The most recent complaint with BBB is March 2017. Usually BBB complaints are only kept on file for 1 to 3 years (depending on the state). As to why there are not more complaints I do not know. If you are interested in the breeder in question I would suggest you read this thread. Generally when there is a thread that is 31 pages long on this forum it is an indication that there have been some serious issues with a breeder.


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## Prism Goldens

Shalva said:


> i honestly would like this thread to not be closed.... I would like someone to bump it up periodically so it continues to be first when googling golden creek kennels... and not get lost in the pits of the archives
> 
> I think there is alot of information here ... and good information and while I dont think that it should be dragged on and on and on ... I do think it serves a purpose...
> but that is just my two cents... let the powers that be do what they will


Someone mentioned her to me today- which caused me to google her- this thread is now at #7 on google. 
I have read (so far) 18 pages or so, when I happened on this post by Shalva. I agree. I'm glad it was not closed and am 'bumping' it up!
Went to the site, we're up to 10 boys and 31 girls.... 
I am envious of the pond- but wonder if they ever get to use it, since I see no field titles.


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## Nate83

Ljilly28 said:


> So many bad breeders have glossy, tempting websites. It's all too easy to be fooled.


 I know there is this lady named Prism her website is amazing very tempting LOL. With the exception she knows her stuff and helped me out several times LOL.

All the love Prism!


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## 173217

Woah, that's a bad breeder. And if you look at her website she acts all reputable. Thank you, New Golden Fan for warning us, I have a family friend who lives in Raleigh and wants a golden pup... I will show her this thread!


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## ClipsSu81

This thread is gold... pun intended. Literally wasted an hour reading it.... Best lunch break ever~ 

/popcorn 

Bad breeders are bad!


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## usually lurking

Prism Goldens said:


> Someone mentioned her to me today- which caused me to google her- this thread is now at #7 on google.
> I have read (so far) 18 pages or so, when I happened on this post by Shalva. I agree. I'm glad it was not closed and am 'bumping' it up!
> Went to the site, we're up to 10 boys and 31 girls....
> I am envious of the pond- but wonder if they ever get to use it, since I see no field titles.


That's insane, but I'm sure it is a primary reason that I see so many Goldens that are clearly poorly bred around here. Frankly, it makes me crazy because there too many good breeders in, and within a relatively short driving distance from, Raleigh.


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## JakeNJessie

I've had two for the past eight years that are in perfect health in every way. Is GCK a business, no doubt about it. Is GCK a puppy mill with dogs abused, it is not. GCK has open houses all the time where 40+ pups come and play. Any owner can ask to board their dog there at any time. Several times, people return their dogs for no good reason, and Susan takes them back. The most recent story was someone who bought a new home only to realize their pups of 9 and eight years no longer fit their life style, and dumped them off. Susan, as always took them and is now looking for the new forever home for them. Are GCK dogs breed for Show with the upmost health and AKC certified, they are not. These are family pets, not Show dogs. However, if there is an issue with either the male or female litters, one or both are taken out of the breeding process. The father of both of mine had one or two or litters and was taken out. So, I am concerned for the long term. But so far, as I mentioned, no issues. As for the BBB, yeah that does tell a lot. She has sold 100's, perhaps 1000's dogs (many shipped to out of State owners, which is odd). This thread represents a fraction, of a portion of dogs, she has sold. The law of numbers and just common sense will tell you that the more successful a breeder is, the more complaints the breeder will get. Perception on this thread may not be a reality, and you can do your research by just going there several times if necessary. People ask, why do Golden Retrievers seem to have a much higher cancer rate??? Perhaps it's because the breed is the most popular, therefore the most reported. I will concede that Susan is not the best communicator after the sale. 

Finally, it does NOT take much effort at all to not be on the holier-than-thou AKC. An organization that has NEVER, not ONCE, chosen a Golden Retriever for best of breed or best of show for Westminister in 140 years!! Does that stat say something about the breed or the AKC, I can't figure it out?


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## Prism Goldens

Its a bit cart before the horse to breed litters from unclearanced animals, and wait until those puppies present problems before removing the sire or dam from a breeding program isn't it?

And just FYI, AKC has nothing to do with who wins Westminster KC show. There are judges at breed level, the winners there go to group level, the winners there all go to BIS. So there is a Herding, Sporting, etc representative in BIS. 
The other Sporting breeds are usually lovely- and often a closer to the standard representative than the Golden. Goldens win the group at least every decade though...


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## LJack

JakeNJessie said:


> Are GCK dogs breed for Show with the upmost health and AKC certified, they are not. These are family pets, not Show dogs.


I am thinking you meant OFA certified as in health certifications. If so, why are show gogs more deserving of being healthy or health tested that 'just' pets?

To my mind heath is critical for the families that invest their hearts in their dogs and ultimately are the ones who end up dealing with the consequences of shoddy breeding practices. 

It is sad that this breeder has not made the effort to do even modicum of research into health certifications. Just 10 minutes spent googling 'Golden Retriever Health' uncovers what should be done. Surly in 20 years she should have come across this information. So to me that means one of 2 things, she cares so little she can't be bothered to keep up on the health research happening in the breed or she knows what she should do and chooses not to do it. Neither is very palatable to me. 

It is a shame that her business model is to not do the standard health testing expected of a breeder claiming health is important. That would be like car manufacturer claiming safety is a benefit of their product with out completing crash tests. I am sure everyone would agree that would be not acceptable in the car industry and likely litigated. But breeders like this make health claims all the time yet so many look the other way or don't understand how that claim is smoke and mirrors. 

Then if they are puppy owners like you they get upset the breeder of their most cherished dog is being discussed in an unfavorable light. I get it is emotional for you. We are not discussing your dogs but it likely feels that way. 

Puppies born from parents with hip and elbow Dysplasia don't always have the disease themselves. Just as having health certifications does not guarantee a puppy won't have an issue. The difference is in the statistical odds. The puppy from health tested stock has a proven substantial increase in the odds for health. 

I hope your pups stay healthy because yes their is some genetic luck involved. I also hope you do more research into Golden Retriever health and in time see this breeder is not doing everything they should for their dogs or you. Threads like this exist because buyers deserve to make their best decision when investing their hearts and money. They deserve a healthy puppy regardless of if they intend to show or not. And health has nothing to do with who wins one (out of hundreds) televised dog show.


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## rabernet

JakeJessy said:


> Actually it's much longer than a year. When I got Jake almost two years ago, I joined but then rejoined under JakeJessy in October. I was so happy with Jake that I had to get another one.





JakeNJessie said:


> I've had two for the past eight years that are in perfect health in every way. Is GCK a business, no doubt about it. *Is GCK a puppy mill with dogs abused, it is not. *GCK has open houses all the time where 40+ pups come and play. Any owner can ask to board their dog there at any time. Several times, people return their dogs for no good reason, and Susan takes them back. The most recent story was someone who bought a new home only to realize their pups of 9 and eight years no longer fit their life style, and dumped them off. Susan, as always took them and is now looking for the new forever home for them. Are GCK dogs breed for Show with the upmost health and AKC certified, they are not. These are family pets, not Show dogs. However, if there is an issue with either the male or female litters, one or both are taken out of the breeding process. The father of both of mine had one or two or litters and was taken out. So, I am concerned for the long term. But so far, as I mentioned, no issues. As for the BBB, yeah that does tell a lot. She has sold 100's, perhaps 1000's dogs (many shipped to out of State owners, which is odd). This thread represents a fraction, of a portion of dogs, she has sold. The law of numbers and just common sense will tell you that the more successful a breeder is, the more complaints the breeder will get. Perception on this thread may not be a reality, and you can do your research by just going there several times if necessary. People ask, why do Golden Retrievers seem to have a much higher cancer rate??? Perhaps it's because the breed is the most popular, therefore the most reported. I will concede that Susan is not the best communicator after the sale.
> 
> Finally, it does NOT take much effort at all to not be on the holier-than-thou AKC. An organization that has NEVER, not ONCE, chosen a Golden Retriever for best of breed or best of show for Westminister in 140 years!! Does that stat say something about the breed or the AKC, I can't figure it out?


Are you the same user as above? That makes three accounts for you here? 

You don't have to be an abuser to be a puppy mill. She sure seems to be churning out puppies without any regard to their long term health from where I sit. She's still not doing clearances, and duping new puppy owners. 

Glad that your two are doing well, but you can't convince me that Susan is breeding goldens for the love of the goldens vs the love of her pocket book.


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## Blmounce

Forgive me for not really knowing how to work this site but a simple search of the word “seizure” from the GCK lovers Facebook group pulls up what I consider to be a ridiculous amount of GCK pups with these problems. I have listed here the name of the pup suffering from the seizures on the left. The two parents (mom dad) in parenthesis and the year the litter was born on the right. You will see that Dillon is listed lots on this list as a sire. Besides all of this the “Maverick” puppy who started having known seizures at 6 months old later stood as a stud for GCK ?? anyways, here’s the list.


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## Prism Goldens

Wow. Any thinking person would start all over with different lines. But who would sell a puppy that can be bred to someone who cranks out so many without anything?


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## Emmdenn

They have SEVEN litters due in March/April. Absolute insanity.


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## Lacey Sheri

Blmounce said:


> Forgive me for not really knowing how to work this site but a simple search of the word “seizure” from the GCK lovers Facebook group pulls up what I consider to be a ridiculous amount of GCK pups with these problems. I have listed here the name of the pup suffering from the seizures on the left. The two parents (mom dad) in parenthesis and the year the litter was born on the right. You will see that Dillon is listed lots on this list as a sire. Besides all of this the “Maverick” puppy who started having known seizures at 6 months old later stood as a stud for GCK ?? anyways, here’s the list.
> View attachment 869133
> 
> The puppy Maverick you are referring to in this list was not used for breeding. The Maverick that GCK used for breeding retired sometime around 2011. We had a Maverick puppy from GCK who was born in 2007 - he passed away just last week. He didn't have one health issue his entire life but an aggressive soft tissue sarcoma took his life quickly at the age of 13. We were incredibly blessed to have this dog in our life for so long - he was perfect in every way and we miss him.


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## keyholder

I adopted a puppy from GCK and Susan Harb. He was the best, most loving dog we've ever had however he was beset with health problems from day 1 when we had to take him to the vet for dehydration. He had HD, ED, Ichthyosis, had to have ACL surgery and ultimately got an agressive tumor on top of his heart and at the end a tumor on his tongue. We lost him at age 11 in 2020 and were heartbroken. He was a great dog but I believe he suffered and much of this could have been prevented with a better breeding program that focused on health rather than $. We let Susan know as these problems came up but never got any response. I was completely ignorant about health clearances etc but am much better informed now. When you buy a puppy from GCK you only reward this irresponsible breeder and perpetuate the problems and suffering these dogs are experiencing.


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## lamarsha

when my 6 year old golden creek girl died from lymphoma susan harb told me lymphoma was not genetic in goldens...thats when I knew I had been taken. this was in 2007 and to this day Inhave not gotten another golden, just too heart broken


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## Radioman970

Hi. 

I was wondering if this is the same breeder mentioned in this thread? 

Harbs Golden Retrievers

I know nothing about this breeder. I'm worried about the pictures used on their puppies available page. They are all taken at different places. And the hair coloring on one is very light versus the others. They also don't reveal a whole lot about where they are located. And the price is the cheapest I've found anywhere. All that and they offer free shipping to far away locations like mine. 

Thank you for any help.


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## Prism Goldens

Radioman970 said:


> Hi.
> 
> I was wondering if this is the same breeder mentioned in this thread?
> 
> Harbs Golden Retrievers
> 
> I know nothing about this breeder. I'm worried about the pictures used on their puppies available page. They are all taken at different places. And the hair coloring on one is very light versus the others. They also don't reveal a whole lot about where they are located. And the price is the cheapest I've found anywhere. All that and they offer free shipping to far away locations like mine.
> 
> Thank you for any help.


Oh, that is certainly a scam site. I will post it on that thread and hope Tagrenine can add it to her original post. 
While Susan Harb doesn't have a safe program imo this person isn't a real GR breeder- it's obvious from the verbiage and various background in pup photos- plus puppies look nothing alike. And this? 
*House Broke, Potty Trained, 3 Years Health Guarantee, Available I’m ready today! Shipping is available with same-day delivery*
Yeah.. not real in any situation for any price much less $600


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## Radioman970

Prism Goldens said:


> Oh, that is certainly a scam site. I will post it on that thread and hope Tagrenine can add it to her original post.
> While Susan Harb doesn't have a safe program imo this person isn't a real GR breeder- it's obvious from the verbiage and various background in pup photos- plus puppies look nothing alike. And this?
> *House Broke, Potty Trained, 3 Years Health Guarantee, Available I’m ready today! Shipping is available with same-day delivery*
> Yeah.. not real in any situation for any price much less $600


yep! lol they picked the cutest pictures they could find. And the descriptions on each pup are cut and paste. So many red flags. 

Can't thank you enough for the comment. Hopefully posting there will help others. It's easy to get taken. I mostly have rescues, shelters, strays and even a surrender (as I was passing a park here in 2013 a lady handed me an incredible rat terrier over the fence!). But after the landseer newfie in my AV died back in June I've been searching for another big furry friend to add (I also have a border collie mix that needs someone more energetic than me and the terrier lol) and missed getting a local golden from a rescue. I got curious about the cost of a pup. Haven't had a pup since the 90s. 

Thanks again!


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## Sweet Pea 521

I'm just adding to this discussion to bring it up to date because I see the last post was in 2021. I have pup from GCK. She was born May 25th 2021. Her mother had known genetic issues and Susan keeps breeding her. My pup Nellie is only 13 monthsold , but over on the GCK facebook page it is showing a litter of pups from her sister. That means that Susan is intentionally breeding a pup on her first heat cycle. That is VERY irresponsible. Nellie's other siblings have had issues. 2 of them have ectopic ureter and one of them has Ectopic ureter WITH renal dysplasia and is not expected to live past 18 months. This is a puppy mill and I tell everyone I come in contact with to STAY FAR AWAY. She needs to be shut down....


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## brethed

Blmounce said:


> Forgive me for not really knowing how to work this site but a simple search of the word “seizure” from the GCK lovers Facebook group pulls up what I consider to be a ridiculous amount of GCK pups with these problems. I have listed here the name of the pup suffering from the seizures on the left. The two parents (mom dad) in parenthesis and the year the litter was born on the right. You will see that Dillon is listed lots on this list as a sire. Besides all of this the “Maverick” puppy who started having known seizures at 6 months old later stood as a stud for GCK ?? anyways, here’s the list.
> View attachment 869133


Wow. This is great information as I am working with NCST currently, as my dog (Tucker) was bought from Golden Creek Kennel and has Idiopathic Epilepsy. It started at 1 1/2 years of age and he is now 3 1/2. Has had 22 seizures in 17 months. Cost per month for medication is $210, but has not stopped or slowed the seizures. Currently, I am listening to live broadcast on Epilepsy every Tuesday night as it is a summit created through NCST with many Doctors discussing all of the aspects of Epilepsy. Through this study we could determine my dog has Epilepsy from genetic. The list you provided helped me align the family tree of my dog who's parents were Noah and Lexi. Lexi's grandfather and grandmother were Dillon and Luna. Dillions father was .... Dallas! 
It is a shame Golden Creek Kennel did not do their homework, or elected not to do their homework. I was regularly taking Tucker back to GCK when I would go out of town. After his first few seizures and my VET indicated he had Idiopathic epilepsy, I took Tucker back to stay for a weekend for boarding with GCK and happen to run into Susan and mentioned to her about my dog. She basically blew me off and left the building. I guess I was one of a few who may have brought this up in the past. If Golden Creek Kennel lost its certification, well that is business. Secondly, if they lose their license to breed because the kennel is found negligent in breeding dogs which knowingly had Epilepsy, then so be it. Unfortunately, I was one of those buyers. But, I would not give up my sweet boy for anything, and plan to make his life at all costs as best I can. Thank you so much for sharing!!!


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## brethed

diwedwards said:


> I purchased my dog from GCK in July 2008. Susan Harb was kind, patient, and extremely professional each time I spoke with her. I had several questions prior to picking up my puppy and she was always helpful by returning both emails and phone calls promptly. Believe me, I contacted her several times with lots of questions since it was the first time I had ever purchased a dog. When I went to pick up my dog, she sat down with me and gave me, as I call it, "Petey's Baby Book." It had all shot records, dates he needed to visit vet for upcoming shots, ways to help with housebreaking, suggestions for introducing him to children and other pets in the home, etc. I felt as if I were adopting a child. Her kennels are immaculate and I was so impressed. Each month all who have purchased a puppy from her and those who may be interested are invited to come out for an Open House. My vet, dog food carrier, groomer, etc. are all quite impressed with my dog, too. Susan Harb goes above and beyond in my eyes! Are you sure your experience was with GCK?


You were one of the lucky ones. Many have had issues. I have traced the problems in the family trees of her Sirs and dames. She has not done her homework very well. My dog is suffering because of it.


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boofunk said:


> *Golden Creek Kennels is the BEST*
> 
> My daughter has had a GCK dog for quite a few years. He is the BEST dog ever. Susan Harb is a loving, caring woman who hand raises her puppies from day one. Aside from their outward beauty, their inward beauty and breeding shines through. Our little 14 yrs. old Schipperke is best friends with this big Golden and he is as gentle as can be with him, along with an assortment of cats! I highly recommend this breeder. She is caring and loving and her facility is top rate. You will never be sorry with one of her gorgeous dogs............


Until you find Epilepsy in the threat of her Dames and Sires!


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CarolinaCasey said:


> :thanks:
> 
> By the sheer number of breeding dogs and the size of the kennel, this is a business- not for the betterment of the golden retriever breed. You can't argue that.
> 
> Golden Creek Kennel does not participate in any dog venues. It is easy to become kennel blind when you do not have anyone independently critiquing your stock.
> 
> Foster programs disgust me. "Here, take this intact animal, raise it, train in, love it as your own, but I am going to breed it until as often as I can, sell the puppies for cash, and then ship her back to her caretakers. If she dies in whelp, my heart won't be broken- it will be those poor suckers. "🇳🇴 I honestly have compassion for you and the others. You were unknowingly duped by a predator who preys upon people in grief. It isn't your fault, it is Susan Harb's. Shame on her. I promise that if you post your sweet pet's names, we can prove it to you. I know it might be hard to hear, but it will be in stone.


Agreed. 2019 Tucker suffering from Epilepsy developed in the family tree.


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