# Beginning agility advice



## wicamnca (Oct 12, 2008)

I just started taking my 10 month old to agility classes. I know that as puppies they are not supposed to do jumps and weaves and we are following that in class. We are, however, doing the a-frame and ramps quite high. The a-frame may even be full height. Kayla seems to have no problem with it, but I am worried that it is inappropriate to be doing that height at her age. Is there an age requirement for height on the climbing equipment in agility like there are for jumps and weave polls? What about the teeter? The class is 5 weeks, but then I can continue on afterwards for as long as I want on a month-to-month basis. I am not sure what to do at this point because I don't know whether or not this class is taking all the right precautions for her age. Although it is not a "puppy" class there are a few young dogs in our class besides Kayla. Would you guys recommend we continue or do I need to back off and wait until she gets older? 

Thanks!


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would wait or at least not work at the full height. The reason being a 10 month old puppies growth plates, joints and bones are not developed and climbing is hard on the joints. I have a 11 month old who had to have surgery because of OCD in his elbow. Trip has always been so full of energy, that as a young puppy he could jump to eye level from a flat foot stand. He jumped up and down off everything though I tried to keep him on the ground.


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## wicamnca (Oct 12, 2008)

Oh, that's scary. Kayla is pretty high energy too. If I asked the teacher to lower the a-frame, is there a specific height I should ask for?


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

wicamnca said:


> I just started taking my 10 month old to agility classes. I know that as puppies they are not supposed to do jumps and weaves and we are following that in class. We are, however, doing the a-frame and ramps quite high. The a-frame may even be full height. Kayla seems to have no problem with it, but I am worried that it is inappropriate to be doing that height at her age. Is there an age requirement for height on the climbing equipment in agility like there are for jumps and weave polls? What about the teeter? The class is 5 weeks, but then I can continue on afterwards for as long as I want on a month-to-month basis. I am not sure what to do at this point because I don't know whether or not this class is taking all the right precautions for her age. Although it is not a "puppy" class there are a few young dogs in our class besides Kayla. Would you guys recommend we continue or do I need to back off and wait until she gets older?
> 
> Thanks!


It depends on what venue's full height you're talking about. For example a NADAC a-frame is much lower than AKC's a-frame...the other part is what is high for you might be your perspective as a newbie to agility - it could SEEM huge but might not be. In my opinion your contact behavior plays a big part of what height is safe for a young dog too - If you are working 2 on/2 off the stress of stopping and holding is different than if you were working a running contact (a la Rachel Saunders). 

I'm inclined to work a full height teeter when the young dog is capable of doing so safely - slowly bringing it up link by link - I also use tables with the teeter while I bring it up to full height...My concern with keeping the teeter low is that once it's raised the pivot point changes - so if you get 1000 reps on a 8" teeter your dog has a expectation of the obstacle that's not the final behavior of the teeter under him. 

I'll bring the dog walk up to full height after the teeter - and my dogs don't see AKC height A-frames until around the time I start them on weaves - 15 months or so...

I'd say continue the course moving at the speed that you need to do - If Kayla is your first agility dog there is a lot of stuff that you need to work on yourself - crosses, pivots, strategy - OH MY!

Have fun!!!

Erica


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

wicamnca said:


> Oh, that's scary. Kayla is pretty high energy too. If I asked the teacher to lower the a-frame, is there a specific height I should ask for?


It depends...
AKC full-height is within one inch of 5'6".

NADAC is 4'8" for 8' a-frames and 5'0" for 9' a-frames. I think that below 5' is probably suitable for a 10 month old....somewhere around the 4' 8" is probably good - but it depends on your contact behavior...
Erica


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## wicamnca (Oct 12, 2008)

We are working on doing the 2 on 2 off behavior. I am guessing it is must be AKC height then because I am 5'3" and the top of the A-frame is a bit taller than me. 

Yes, Kayla is my first agility dog. We are only 3 weeks into it so I am really, really bad. But it is fun! It is so hard to wait for all the other people to go before we get our turn again. Kayla is a bit scared of the tunnel and really scared of the chute, but everything else she zips through so fast that the teacher said I will need to take sprinting lessons!


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

wicamnca said:


> that the teacher said I will need to take sprinting lessons!


Pretty much! If you don't come off course huffing you didn't run fast enough - or so my first agility instructor told us years ago. We have a saying about fast dogs - grab your arse and RUN!
E


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree with Murphy Teller. Remember, and I know its hard to do, they are just puppies. Have fun, and take it slow. Start low, then move up gradually. My first agility class we didn't even get to see the obstacles, the entire 5 weeks was handling, we even did jumps without bars (just going through the stantions). It is fun though.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

wicamnca said:


> We are working on doing the 2 on 2 off behavior. I am guessing it is must be AKC height then because I am 5'3" and the top of the A-frame is a bit taller than me.
> 
> Yes, Kayla is my first agility dog. We are only 3 weeks into it so I am really, really bad. But it is fun! It is so hard to wait for all the other people to go before we get our turn again. Kayla is a bit scared of the tunnel and really scared of the chute, but everything else she zips through so fast that the teacher said I will need to take sprinting lessons!


That height a-frame is too tall for a baby dog learning 2on/2off. That's a lot of force on the front assembly without a good sense of hindend awareness - and 10 month olds do not have good hindend awareness unless they have been specifically taught that their bodies continue past their shoulders.

Oh and the tunnel/chute thing...first a couple of classes isn't a lot of time with equipment - so don't sweat anything yet... Go to your local bed/bath place and buy one of those pop-up hampers. Cut the bottom out of it - if you're feeling really adventerous then buy two or three and sew them together. Use something to stabilize the "tunnel" - laundry jugs with water work really well - you can't saddle those with sand or they'll squish. Practice with those - they're really short and fit neatly in hallways and such - if you can get someone to help you start with one of you on each side and calling her back and forth for a cookie. That will make the tunnel a pretty high value obstacle. I'm a little surprised that your instructor has started you on the chute only three weeks into class. IMO beginner dogs need to be SOLID and very confident on an open tunnel of various shapes before a closed tunnel is introduced - and that is several weeks of class if not a couple of sessions of classes. 

Erica


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

The A-frame is too high, and it sounds like the class is moving at a very fast pace for such a young puppy. Would you mind PMing me with the name of your instructor? I know all the agility people in southern CA and I'm pretty surprised any of them would have a 10-month-old on a full-height A-frame.


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## wicamnca (Oct 12, 2008)

We don't really spend a whole lot of time on each piece of equipment so maybe they are just trying to give us a taste of each one right now? That's kind of why I posted though. I just had this feeling that this class wasn't right for Kayla but I wasn't sure since it is the only one I have ever been to. I think I will not continue on with beginning until she is older and try and find where we can do more of the foundation work instead. 

Thanks everyone for the help!

katie - sorry, but I have to figure out how to PM first. I never had enough posts to do it before.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

I think you're making a good choice to wait until she's older. Doing a brief introduction to a bunch of full-height obstacles is about the worst possible way to start in agility. Let us know if you want a recommendation for a foundation class


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

when we were first starting agility, our instructor had the A-frame and dog walk down pretty low.
Also, she teaches the 2 on/2 off BUT with any big dogs, they are required to SIT at the bottom, with their rump on the contact zone. She said it takes the stress off the shoulders/arms of developing dogs. So now whenever Tito is coming over the full height frame or dog walk, he's already thinking about swaying his weight off of his front end and onto his rear.
I love our instructor!
BTW, the instructor said that goldens have a notoriously hard time with the teeter.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

katieanddusty said:


> I think you're making a good choice to wait until she's older. Doing a brief introduction to a bunch of full-height obstacles is about the worst possible way to start in agility. Let us know if you want a recommendation for a foundation class


I think this is right on...you don't need to stop classes and wait - but you need to find the right classes for your puppy. For what it's worth - I'm not a fan of exposing puppies (or beginner dogs) and people to everything all at once. That leads to a temptation to further rush dogs over equipment and causes all sorts of holes in understanding down the line. Get in touch with Katie and get some recommendations for training classes in the area that will help you get a solid foundation start taking into account the age of your puppy and your novice introduction to the sport.

Where is Stephanie? Isn't she in San Diego?

Erica


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Stephanie is in the San Fernando Valley, same general area as me. I'm not sure where wicamnca lives.


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

katieanddusty said:


> The A-frame is too high, and it sounds like the class is moving at a very fast pace for such a young puppy.


I totally agree with this! I also have a girl with serious elbow and hip problems right now- and while a large portion may be due to bad breeding practices, some may be due to the fact that I let an agility instructor pressure me into working her on full height obstacles as a "tween" - 9-14 months. It is is not okay!


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

I got lucky and Dusty was a year and a half by the time we started ... but that instructor had him on a 6'3" A-frame his second lesson (I don't remember how high it was his first lesson, I'd like to think even she has more brains than that, but it wouldn't surprise me if she just left it at 6'3" for his first lesson too).


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## wicamnca (Oct 12, 2008)

I thought about the height of the a-frame all day at work today. I am not 100% sure it was full height. I know it was around my height but I can't remember exactly where it came to anymore. All I know is that it certainly was a lot higher than I expected. Either way, I still am going to find a class that goes a little slower. I think it will be good for both of us.

I am also in the San Fernando Valley. I would love to get a recommendation for a place to go especially if they have an opening for a later evening or weekend class. The problem I am finding is that most of the classes I call about are full and they don't know when there will be an opening. I guess that should have been my cue to wait :doh:


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I think it's best to start all dogs, regardless of age on smaller obstacles... Especially a puppy. I have a 14 month old who has been taking agility classes for 6 months and has not been on a full height contact... I think in the long run dogs really benefit when they receive a solid foundation, they have more confidence and a better understand of what the criteria is.


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

My puppy is 9 months and is taking his third foundation agility class. We're getting some good exposure to contact equipment in this class, but the a-frame is at 4 feet and the dog walk is at 2 feet. We're working on training a two on two off position through back chaining, but not while running full speed across the contact equipment. 

It will be another 6-9 months before he is exposed to full height contacts or to working on weaves or jumps more than 8 inches high -- I'll have x-rays taken to make sure the growth plates are closed first. There is plenty for us to work on with regards to handling, confidence building, and drive before we encounter full height obstacles. 

I'm of the opinion that it's okay to start them young as long as you and your instructor(s) are aware of the risks and challenges in working with a growing puppy and can adapt the training to what is safe for them. My 7 year old started before I knew any better and wasn't trained properly on contacts for quite a few years. To this day, he loves jumping off the top of the a-frame and has the arthritis in his elbows to go with it.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> BTW, the instructor said that goldens have a notoriously hard time with the teeter.


You are right on! I can saw this from experience training 2 Goldens in agility. Both had/have teeter issues.

It kinda starts out like it's no big deal for the Goldens. Then, when they realize that it moves every time and it's not always predictable, they FREAK out. It took me over about 18 months to get Aubrie back on the teeter.

Layla used to have issues in class and would jump off the teeter at the top. I have been able to work through it (I'm lucky enough to own an AKC teeter) so she's gotten a whole lot better. It took MONTHS though to even get her confidence back up to where it needs to be. I'm still not satisfied with her teeter yet, but at least the confidence is there.

Don't push the teeter. I wanted to push for speed in the beginning, but this is not the best idea. Let your dog tell you how fast you need to take it. I'm just now adding speed with the teeter and teaching Layla to do a running teeter without as much hesitation at the top. The hesitation costs alot of time.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Well, ideally (and this goes for any obstacle) you should TRAIN for speed from the beginning. This doesn't mean taking a dog who knows to run up the ramp like it's "no big deal" and then run faster or throw a toy or do anything else people do to "push for speed." But a good trainer will train the teeter so that there is speed from the beginning (by lowering it, putting one end on a table, whatever). The dog's speed is information for you - if the dog isn't running at full speed, you're progressing too fast and need to go back to where they're comfortable.

It's a lot easier to do that than to deal with all the retraining later on because you originally said "oh, those Goldens and their teeters, let him go at whatever speed he's comfortable with." You want the dog's first and only association with the teeter to be woohoo let's go fast. If the dog's approach to the teeter for the first few months or so is "uh oh, slow down" it's going to be hard to get rid of that (and if that goes on for a few years, it becomes close to impossible to completely fix).

And before you even start training the normal performance of the teeter, it's a good idea to get the dog comfortable with the motion. The video below is of my Dusty who had major teeter problems for several years before we started retraining. A lot of instructors will try to make you hold up the high end until the dog runs all the way up, because that's what they do to get super-fast sliding teeters with their border collies, but it tends to have a very different effect on a low-to-medium-drive Golden who worries about the teeter. So we did this starting with the teeter very low and raising it up to pretty much full height, and then lowered it again and started on the running across the normal way.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Katie, I LOVE the bang game!! I am going to send your video to a friend who is having teeter troubles...


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