# The more research I do, the more confused I get



## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

Cut back his food, but add some green beans (no salt added) as a filler. It can be done. I took 25 pounds off my older guy about 4 years ago. We struggle to maintain his weight now, but he looks great. 

Goldens are great at telling you they're hungry. They just like to eat.

Good luck!


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Try California Natural Low-Fat. That's what I have Dakota on. He's done fine on it.





janni518 said:


> I need to get at least 25 pounds off my senior boy. I had switched him to Pro PLan senior a while pack and boy did he pack on the pounds! I know from having issues with him in the past that he does better with a "light" formula than he does having less of a regular formula.
> 
> My hubby trying to be helpful, brought him home large breed, weight control, Iams and fed it to him last night without consulting me first. I went back to the store and spent about an hour (at Petco) last night talking to a bunch of employees and customers, who saw my obvious confusion and tried to help. My vet just said feed him less, but he doesn't have to deal with a miserable and confused 10 year old dog who wants his tummy full.
> 
> ...


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## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

I have found that most of the foods sold as "large breed" tend to be lower in calories plus add extra glucosamine which would be beneficial to an older dog. They keep the protein at a good level too. I like the looks of Innova Large Breed kibble. They also make one for Large Breed Senior. These "large breed" foods are about 200 calories per cup lower than the regular Innova Adult Dog food. I believe that the term "large breed" is just a marketing ploy but the food itself is really good and might work for your needs.


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## msdogs1976 (Dec 21, 2007)

kgiff said:


> Cut back his food, but add some green beans (no salt added) as a filler.


That's all you have to do. Expensive diet food not needed.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I second the green beans idea, but I also agree with the vet that tough love is important too. Some Goldens want to eat a lot more than they really need. That "empty tummy" look might be more about habits than about actual hunger. They tend to be confused and upset when important things change around, like the amount of food, as their memory of the routine and what actually happens are in conflict. It might be that he gets used to smaller amounts, particularly if you make it happen slowly and fill in with the green beans.

Study after study has shown the incredible effect that proper weight has on chronic health problems and longevity. An overweight dog can lose 10%-20% or more off his lifespan and tends to experience things like arthritis, joint problems, skin problems, breathing problems, immune system problems, and heart disease much earlier in life. There's emerging research that even suggests certain cancers are more likely to afflict overweight dogs.

I know those big brown eyes are hard to resist, but I also feel the fragile and fleeting nature of a dog's life. They just don't live long enough, but healthy weight is something we can absolutely give them.

Yeesh...I kind of got on a rant there. I definitely don't mean to come across as judgmental or anything crazy like that. I just wanted to advocate strongly for the tough love and green beans approach. It could mean two extra healthy years with your pal.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Add the green beans to his meals, and keep in mind some dogs will ALWAYS be hungry and want to eat. Bender is totally that kinda girl, the only time she turned down a meal was when she had pyro and was very, very sick.

If I fed her till she was full, she likely would be about 150 lbs of 'still hungry'.

When he's giving you 'the look' grab his leash and take him for a walk around the block, take out a brush and brush his coat, or find a toy and play with him. The 'look' doesn't mean you should feed him.

Lana


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## janni518 (Oct 13, 2008)

Guess I expressed myself badly...I have no problem with tough love. Ask my hubby I just got 20 lbs off of him.  This is not our first go-round with the weight issue. Last time he was on a cheap diet food and veggies and he got the weight off and kept it off for years. If it was just him looking sad it'd be fine. He gets obnoxious and barks and spends a lot of time out on the deck. 

He's given us so much love and joy over the years and I know his health is the bottom line but I also feel at his age, if I can make it a bit easier on him to lose the weight I owe it to him to do so.

I just found it odd that the vet (he's an old fat curmudgeon himself lol) didn't even want to discuss a diet plan or food recommendation. Just barked "Feed him less" at me. 

I appreciate the feedback and helpful advice. Even the "scolding" which, while unnecessary (there is nobody that feels worse about this than I do and I am on a mission to get the weight off of him), I know was coming from the best possible place. I'll take a look at those brands that were recommended. Thank!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

janni518 said:


> Guess I expressed myself badly...I have no problem with tough love. Ask my hubby I just got 20 lbs off of him.  This is not our first go-round with the weight issue. Last time he was on a cheap diet food and veggies and he got the weight off and kept it off for years. If it was just him looking sad it'd be fine. He gets obnoxious and barks and spends a lot of time out on the deck.
> 
> He's given us so much love and joy over the years and I know his health is the bottom line but I also feel at his age, if I can make it a bit easier on him to lose the weight I owe it to him to do so.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I knew I came on a little strong. I have no doubt you love your dog and care deeply about him. I definitely had no intention to scold. Anyway, have you thought about trying the green beans? They're apparently very filling and lo cal.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Bender said:


> If I fed her till she was full, she likely would be about 150 lbs of 'still hungry'.



Yup mine too!! I also say substitute a cup of food for a cup of green beans and that should help quite a bit!


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Did your Vet run a FULL Thyroid Panel? TELL him to do it. (Vets often balk...but they're often wrong when they say "I don't think we need to". It's your money and your dog....check that thyroid out completely). Send it out (not the in house test). Even if everything else (skin and coat) *looks* fine....he might have a thyroid problem. Goldens are known for this. Thyroid can cause many many issues. Weight, skin and coat problems are just scratching the surface.

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/THYROID-ARTICLES.HTM

Even if he does have a thyroid problem and needs to be on monthly medication, you'll still need to put him on a weight loss program. Excercise. Walking/swimming at least a couple of times a day...increasing time and distance as he becomes accustomed to it.

I'd try a grain free food....something like Taste of the Wild.

My Vet calls it the Adkins Diet for dogs. LOL It's higher in protein, moderate fat, low carbs. NO GRAINS.

Those of ours who needed to drop a few pounds definitely did on this food. It takes time....it took time to gain the weight, and it'll take time to lose it.

Also feed three smaller meals a day, and make sure you give a COUPLE (not five or six) treats before bed (we don't give treats other than at bed time).


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

I second the green beans idea!


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## janni518 (Oct 13, 2008)

Ardeagold said:


> Did your Vet run a FULL Thyroid Panel? TELL him to do it. (Vets often balk...but they're often wrong when they say "I don't think we need to". It's your money and your dog....check that thyroid out completely). Send it out (not the in house test). Even if everything else (skin and coat) *looks* fine....he might have a thyroid problem. Goldens are known for this. Thyroid can cause many many issues. Weight, skin and coat problems are just scratching the surface.
> 
> http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/THYROID-ARTICLES.HTM
> 
> ...


No he didn't do any testing. I mentioned the horible flaking and what seemed like hot flashes but he just kept saying feed him less. My hubby loves this vet but I've never been a big fan of his. I don't feel like he listens to me at all.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

You can do it. We got a lot of weight off of Tucker and he has kept it off for 5 years. We didn't need green beans or anything like that. In fact, green beans gave my guys runny poo. Yuck!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I would strongly second the idea to get a full thyroid panel.... sent out. Even a reading of low normal, is LOW in a golden and needs treatment. Even many vets are not aware of this. You can get a consult with Dr Jean Dodds to determine if treatment is needed and a doseage. As hard as it can be, you are your pet's advocate and you need to have the final say in his care. Please keep us posted... we care.


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## msdogs1976 (Dec 21, 2007)

Hey.......I'm a few pounds over weight. Maybe I should have a full thyroid panel.


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## K9 Passion (Jan 2, 2009)

Interestingly, dogs do not want to eat more so that they experience that "full feeling," but rather their bodies are telling them that they want more calories. No scientific research has found that feeding more food (extra bulk) satisfies their appetite because they're not after bulk - they're after calories. Further, no scientific research has found that feeding more carbohydrates give them that full sensation - that is a myth.

The vast majority of "senior" formulas are flawed, as they are too low in protein. As dogs (& humans) age, our muscles experience a process called "muscle catabolization," which refers to the deterioration of the lean muscle tissue. To counteract that process, we must increase exercise & increase protein to keep the muscle tissue intact. As such, senior dogs need more protein, not less. A properly formulated "senior" formula should be moderate to high in protein (26-38%) & low in fat (10-15%). BUT, remember, raw unprocessed fat is a great source of readily metabolizable energy too! I've formulated weight loss plans for clients dogs who were severely obese & added an appropriate level of organic extra virgin coconut oil to their nutritional regimens, which increased their energy levels, & in-turn, helped them burn more calories.

Eggs are the most highly digestible source of protein for canines. So, perhaps you could throw in a few hard-boiled eggs with each meal.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> No he didn't do any testing. I mentioned the horible flaking and what seemed like hot flashes but he just kept saying feed him less. My hubby loves this vet but I've never been a big fan of his. I don't feel like he listens to me at all.


Make him listen. Stand up to him. As Penny and Maggie's Mom said...we are our pet's advocates. They cannot speak for themselves. It's our responsibility to stand up for them and to demand the care they deserve.

Just tell him you insist it be done. You don't need to be argumentative...just tell him to do it. He may "poo pooh" you...but ask him to humor you. And make sure he sends it out to a lab. FULL PANEL.

Oh and if it turns out you're right...and your dog does have a thyroid problem, expect the Vet to either respect you more in the future, or REALLY get hostile. LOL If he does the latter...it'll be the perfect time to find a new Vet.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

The Wellness Weight Loss took 20lbs off my neighbor's lab, something I never thought I'd see. He's like a different dog. Eagle Pack Large Breed is a decent food- but I cant feed it bc I cant keep weight on them. The lbs melt off with Eagle Pack Large Breed.


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## janni518 (Oct 13, 2008)

Ardeagold said:


> Make him listen. Stand up to him. As Penny and Maggie's Mom said...we are our pet's advocates. They cannot speak for themselves. It's our responsibility to stand up for them and to demand the care they deserve.
> 
> Just tell him you insist it be done. You don't need to be argumentative...just tell him to do it. He may "poo pooh" you...but ask him to humor you. And make sure he sends it out to a lab. FULL PANEL.
> 
> Oh and if it turns out you're right...and your dog does have a thyroid problem, expect the Vet to either respect you more in the future, or REALLY get hostile. LOL If he does the latter...it'll be the perfect time to find a new Vet.


 I really think my biggest problem was having my hubby there. (Didn't have a choice, I have a bad back and wasn't getting this dog in car by myself even with the doggie steps) He loves our vet and respects his opinion. When I persisted in asking questions they both kind of shut me down. If I had the final say in all this it would have been a very different conversation. In retrospect and in all fairness, I think the vet thought I wasn't trying to take ownership of is weight gain, which I'm sure he sees a lot.

On a positive note I have been taking in all the advice here and have decided to both change his food and decrease his amount of food. I'm going to spend some time today looking at labels. I have a place to start as obviously the Pro Plan senior was the wrong choice for him. 

Midas and I had a nice walk this morning, the one good thing about this is that I've been able to walk him again. My hubby had been doing it and Midas had gotten pretty lax about his leash discipline and had started pulling. Well he doesn't pull my my hubby (he's 6'3" so he just strolls and the dog runs to keep up lol)

So, I'm looking at feeding in smaller amounts a good quality high protein regular fat food. Supplementing possibly with green beans (he had some last night and did okay) and possibly additional protein. I'm intrigued by the coconut oil and will be doing a bit of research of that as well.

Will call the vet and talk about the thyroid panel. Not to be crass but $$ are a real issue for us at the moment. Any idea of some cost on that. I know our vet is quite pricey, we are actually deciding to possibly do his shots at a clinic because he over chargeso much.

You guys have been, as usual an invaluable resource and inspiration. Thanks!


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## K9 Passion (Jan 2, 2009)

janni518;738815....I'm intrigued by the coconut oil and will be doing a bit of research of that as well....[/QUOTE said:


> http://www.coconutresearchcenter.org/resources.htm


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

I switched Milly to California Naturals Herring & Sweet Potato and the pounds FLEW OFF! I also started feeding her twice a day, and breakfast is slightly larger meal. She gained about 20 pounds over night (well, in 3 months). She has now lost all of that weight. 

I measure out her two meals each morning with a measuring cup (I originally cut her back from 2 cups of food per day to 1.5 cups a day divided in two feedings). I add no salt added green beans to her meals, non-fat plain yogurt, non-fat cottage cheese, pumpkin, a little raw food or a spoonful of canned food, or a raw egg (not all at once, and not all everyday). I also started adding a little warm water to her meals... it slows down her eating A LOT and she seems fuller.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

K9 Passion said:


> Interestingly, dogs do not want to eat more so that they experience that "full feeling," but rather their bodies are telling them that they want more calories. No scientific research has found that feeding more food (extra bulk) satisfies their appetite because they're not after bulk - they're after calories. Further, no scientific research has found that feeding more carbohydrates give them that full sensation - that is a myth.


This absolutely not by way of undermining your point, but rather a sincere request to help me continue my education in dog health issues: do you have any primary research on this subject you could share?


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## K9 Passion (Jan 2, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> This absolutely not by way of undermining your point, but rather a sincere request to help me continue my education in dog health issues: do you have any primary research on this subject you could share?


NO, because no research has came to that finding.  Maybe I'm not understanding your question..?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

K9 Passion said:


> NO, because no research has came to that finding.  Maybe I'm not understanding your question..?


Oh, I'm confused too. What was the research that contradicted the green beans idea? I thought you were saying that there was no research that indicated the fullness was important, but rather it was a desire for more calories? I assumed that meant you were pointing to research that indicated that supported the idea that they were after calories. After all, the fact that there's no research that confirms the dogs aren't after feeling full doesn't mean they aren't, just that nobody's been able to research it effectively.

Or is there just no good research either way?


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> Oh, I'm confused too. What was the research that contradicted the green beans idea? I thought you were saying that there was no research that indicated the fullness was important, but rather it was a desire for more calories? I assumed that meant you were pointing to research that indicated that supported the idea that they were after calories. After all, the fact that there's no research that confirms the dogs aren't after feeling full doesn't mean they aren't, just that nobody's been able to research it effectively.
> 
> Or is there just no good research either way?



LOL Now I'm confused... :bowl:


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## K9 Passion (Jan 2, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Oh, I'm confused too. What was the research that contradicted the green beans idea? I thought you were saying that there was no research that indicated the fullness was important, but rather it was a desire for more calories? I assumed that meant you were pointing to research that indicated that supported the idea that they were after calories. After all, the fact that there's no research that confirms the dogs aren't after feeling full doesn't mean they aren't, just that nobody's been able to research it effectively.
> 
> Or is there just no good research either way?


I understand your question now (but I wasn't referring to green beans specifically).. I will have to dig through my books & course notes to find what I am referring to. Will post it when I find it.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

K9 Passion said:


> I understand your question now (but I wasn't referring to green beans specifically).. I will have to dig through my books & course notes to find what I am referring to. Will post it when I find it.


Oh, excellent. I thought the green beans suggestion made a lot of sense for people who wanted to cut food but wanted their dogs to feel full as they made those changes. It makes good sense. But if it's one of those things that seems plausible but is undermined by careful scientific research, I'll stop advocating for it.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

Janni, if your guy is a senior, it's my personal opinion that dogs of this age only need rabies vaccinations. You can always do titers to prove they still have immunity to all the diseases they've been vaccinated for. My vet wouldn't vaccinate my old guy (he did have an autoimmune illness, so it was smart on my vet's part), and he's actually a fairly conservative vet. As far as diet, you can always steam some other veggies like broccoli, carrots and cauliflower and chop them up in lieu of the green beans periodically just to switch things up for your pup. For treats, baby carrots, watermelon pieces, or any kind of melon...very few calories and great taste. I, too, think the diet foods aren't the greatest. A good premium kibble, but less of it, will take the weight off. Good luck and happy walking!!!


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> Oh, excellent. I thought the green beans suggestion made a lot of sense for people who wanted to cut food but wanted their dogs to feel full as they made those changes. It makes good sense. But if it's one of those things that seems plausible but is undermined by careful scientific research, I'll stop advocating for it.


 Ditto here


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## K9 Passion (Jan 2, 2009)

I cannot find the study I was thinking of that I read while going through my program, but I found this one online, which kind-of explains what I meant. carbohydrates (fruits/veggies) are high in fiber when included in moderate amounts. Here is an excerpt from a research study that somewhat explains what I'm trying to say & is very similar to the study that I cannot find:

_Traditionally, high-fiber low-energy diets have been promoted for weight management. The content of TDF in those diets typically range from 20 to 40% on a DM basis, as in the two diets used in this study. *Dietary fibers are used to dilute energy density of the food and to provide a feeling of satiety by causing gastric distension. This latter effect remains controversial in dogs.* A concern with feeding weight-reduction diets is that reduced energy intake is associated with suboptimal intake of essential nutrients, especially protein (12). Feeding a high-protein diet in obese dogs resulted in a better conservation of lean body mass (4)._

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/6/1685S


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

K9 Passion said:


> I cannot find the study I was thinking of that I read while going through my program, but I found this one online, which kind-of explains what I meant. carbohydrates (fruits/veggies) are high in fiber when included in moderate amounts. Here is an excerpt from a research study that somewhat explains what I'm trying to say & is very similar to the study that I cannot find:
> 
> _Traditionally, high-fiber low-energy diets have been promoted for weight management. The content of TDF in those diets typically range from 20 to 40% on a DM basis, as in the two diets used in this study. *Dietary fibers are used to dilute energy density of the food and to provide a feeling of satiety by causing gastric distension. This latter effect remains controversial in dogs.* A concern with feeding weight-reduction diets is that reduced energy intake is associated with suboptimal intake of essential nutrients, especially protein (12). Feeding a high-protein diet in obese dogs resulted in a better conservation of lean body mass (4)._
> 
> http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/6/1685S


Cool. This study (only eight dogs, but still interesting) seems to indicate that keeping a fairly high protein ratio is helpful in preserving lean muscle mass and healthy, controlled weight loss. Interesting that the dogs on the traditional weight loss diet actually lost weight a hair faster. But still, fairly compelling evidence that a high protein level and good exercise are really important parts of losing weight in a healthy way.


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## K9 Passion (Jan 2, 2009)

Though it doesn't refer specifically to "green beans," the article is discussing the role of fiber in relation to satiety. Green beans are a high-fiber veggie & the article discusses that no conclusive evidence is available to support whether feeding more fiber (fruits/veggies/grains) helps dogs feel "fuller." That is what I was trying to say. In summation, the theory of green beans making dogs feel fuller is just that - a theory. :wave:


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## msdogs1976 (Dec 21, 2007)

I would say most anything that goes down a dog's throat will make them more full. Whether it makes them feel that way......I have no idea.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

Tinkerbell was satisified on a 1 1/2 cups of kibble in the evening (I have been feeding her Wellness Core Reduced fat) but when I cut it back to a 1 1/4 cups she nosed her bowl a lot, when I cut it back to 1 cup she actually tried to take food from the table. Add in a handful of fresh or frozen veggies and no more looking for food. For us it is what worked. But we also use the veggies as treats most of the time also. 

But I think it is probably one of those things that it depends on the dog.


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## janni518 (Oct 13, 2008)

You guys are just the best. I'm starting to get a better sense of the direction I need to go in. Thanks, for all the info, even when it's contradictory it's helpful as it's making me see things in a different light.

I had a revelation with Midas yesterday. He is totally not food driven outside of the house and totally food driven inside the house. Now that I've realized that I'm working on it. I'm a firm believer in that you CAN teach an old dog new tricks. The family has been instructed to handle his "begging" by distraction and interaction and it seems to be helping. 

I have added the green beans and was planning on going to buy new food this week. (I figure his being on the Iams for one week isn't going to kill him.) It may have to wait until tomorrow though, we may not be dug out from all this snow until the end of the day. 

I'm learning so much from all this. Thanks so much.

Edited to add:



Finn's Fan said:


> Janni, if your guy is a senior, it's my personal opinion that dogs of this age only need rabies vaccinations. You can always do titers to prove they still have immunity to all the diseases they've been vaccinated for. My vet wouldn't vaccinate my old guy (he did have an autoimmune illness, so it was smart on my vet's part), and he's actually a fairly conservative vet. As far as diet, you can always steam some other veggies like broccoli, carrots and cauliflower and chop them up in lieu of the green beans periodically just to switch things up for your pup. For treats, baby carrots, watermelon pieces, or any kind of melon...very few calories and great taste. I, too, think the diet foods aren't the greatest. A good premium kibble, but less of it, will take the weight off. Good luck and happy walking!!!


Our kennel requires bordetella so I guess we will be getting that but I think I'm with you on the rabies only idea. 

The vet tech got pretty snippy with me when I refused the shots but then another one came up behind her and was just lovely about it.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

You can read a thread I started a long time ago on how Tucker lost his weight. It worked for us, but it involved counting all calories, including suppliments that he took in. He's kept his weight off for 5 years now.


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## janni518 (Oct 13, 2008)

Kimm said:


> You can read a thread I started a long time ago on how Tucker lost his weight. It worked for us, but it involved counting all calories, including suppliments that he took in. He's kept his weight off for 5 years now.


Hey, that sounds just like what I did with my hubby.  We were actually just talking about his habit of eating about a 1/4 of ketchup with his eggs and how he never counts those calories. 

I'll go take a look for that thread. Always nice to hear from people who have been through it. Thanks!


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