# The Great Neuter Debate!



## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

..oh... and the contest ends Friday Night.


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## Chelseanr (Oct 3, 2010)

I don't know enough about the breed standard nor what constitutes "normal" growth, but I am interested to see what people say and the answers.

Thanks Braccarius for putting this together it should be fun to see the answers and who wins.

Good luck all!

p.s should the answers be pmed to you?


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Chelseanr said:


> I don't know enough about the breed standard nor what constitutes "normal" growth, but I am interested to see what people say and the answers.
> 
> Thanks Braccarius for putting this together it should be fun to see the answers and who wins.
> 
> ...


Nope just post them on this thread for all to see! complete transparency that way!


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Ok, much tougher when done like that... hmmmm.

Just want to say, everyone's dogs are beautiful!  

E: early
M: mid
L: late or not neutered
1. M
2. L
3. E
4. L
5. L
6. M
7. E
8. M
9. L
10. M
11. M
12. E
13. L
14. L
15. E
16. M
17. M
18. L
19. E
Trick: Claire's Friend??


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

Early
Late
Mid
Late
Mid
Late
Mid
Late
Late
Mid
Mid
Early
Late
Mid
Late
Early
Mid
Early
Mid
No idea who's dogs those are but I'm jealous because they are all so cute!

This was much harder than I thought... in school when we had multiple choice tests I always went with C... there was no C in this case! 


Thanks for putting this together Justin - I'm interested to see the real answers.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

That was a lot of fun... and a lot of effort on your part! Thank you, I am ruminating about the ages.


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

My guesses, and guesses they are because I have no real experience in conformation. I went with my first impression...
1- early
2- late
3- early
4- mid
5- mid
6- late
7- early
8- late
9- mid
10- mid
11- late
12- early
13- mid
14- late
15- early
16- mid
17- early
18- mid
19- late


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

1. Early
2. Late
3. Early
4. Mid
5. Early
6. Mid
7. Early
8. Late
9. Mid
10. Mid
11. Mid
12. Early
13. Late
14. Never
15. Mid
16. Early
17. Early
18. Early
19. Mid


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Oh goodness. This is HARD. I'm playing guessing games over here<:

1. E
2. M
3. E
4. M
5. M
6. M
7. E
8. M
9. E
10. E
11. M
12. E
13. L
14. L
15. L
16. E
17. M
18. M
19. L


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

1 mid
2 mid
3 early
4 mid
5 late
6 late
7 early
8 late
9 mid
10 late
11 mid
12 early
13 mid
14 mid
15 early
16 mid
17 mid
18 late
19 mid


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

! E
2L
3E
4M
5E
6m
7E
8L
9L
10E
11L
12L
13L
14M
15E
16E
17L18M
19L
Bonus? who knows, the dogs are adorable


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

I can't even tell a male from a female in the face but here goes
1. e
2. l
3. m
4. m
5.m
6. l
7. e
8. l
9 e
10. e
11 m
12 e
13 m
14 l
15 e
16 m
17 e
18 l
19 m


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## Val-Jake's my golden boy (Mar 3, 2009)

Hi fellow GRF'rs, 
I have been a member here for quite awhile though this is my first post. My boy is in the video so I figured now was as good a time as any to jump in. I've enjoyed reading all the old posts & spend part of every evening catching up with you all. I'm very grateful to have found this forum. Now for my guesses, & they are just that but I know I'll get 1 right. LOL!
1. early
2. late
3. early
4. early
5. e
6. m
7. e
8. l
9. e
10. e
11. m
12. e
13. l
14. l
15. e
16. l
17. m
18. m
19. l

Bonus: I have no idea but they all look adorable. 
Nice to finally talk to you all. 
Val & my boy Jake


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## MittaBear (Mar 9, 2010)

Ok here are my guesses. I wouldn't put money down on any of these!
1 E
2 L
3 M
4 M
5 M
6 L
7 E
8 M
9 M
10 M
11 M
12 E
13 L
14 M
15 E
16 E
17 M
18 M
19 M

As for the bonus, it looks like a Claire's Friend type of picture.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

C'mon guys! Need some more answerer's!


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## Chelsea10 (Aug 6, 2010)

Okay, here goes...purely guesswork!
1. Mid
2. Late
3. Early
4. Early
5. Late
6. Late
7. Early
8. Late
9. Mid
10. Early
11. Mid
12. Early
13. Late
14. Late
15. Early
16. Mid
17. Early
18. Late
19. Late


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

Well.... I have NO idea LOL. 

Random guess for me:

1. M
2. M
3. E
4. L
5. L
6. M
7. E
8. L
9. L
10. M
11. E
12. E
13. L
14. L
15. E
16. M
17. E
18. L
19. E


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## Noah & Zoe's Mom (Jan 31, 2011)

I have no clue what to put as answers so I won't be entering the contest...

But just wanted to say that whoever "contestant #4" is, he made my heart stop for a moment because he looks so much like my Mister. I had to go back and look at him again! 
Once the contest is over, will you announce who the dogs are or who they belong to? I'd like to know who Mister's "twin" is. 

Also, the "Trick or Treat" photo is one of the cutest things ever!!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm not making a list of guesses myself because I really don't think I can tell with any reliability. That's been my view from the beginning, so it would be a bit odd for me to guess. But I hope some of the folks who feel they can really tell notice this thread and come make some guesses. Even if people can't tell from the photos, it doesn't really undermine their argument, since this isn't a scientific survey.

But if people really can tell from photos (and given the way that people say the difference is really profound, you'd think they'd be able to do better than random guessing), it would go a long way to convincing me that there really is a big, obvious difference in neutered dogs and my eye for it just isn't that good.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

M
L (if at all)
E
L
M
E
E
M
M
M
L
E
L
L
E
E
M
L
L

Here are my guesses - I have a minimal experience with the breed compared to most, so there are only a few where I was reasonably certain though.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Please come and vote on this debate... I think it is lots of fun!!


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## wenryder (Oct 21, 2010)

my guesses:
1. Early
2. Late
3. Early
4. Mid
5. Late
6. Late
7. Early
8. Late
9. Mid
10. Mid
11. Late
12. Late
13. Mid
14. Late
15. Early
16. Early
17. Mid
18. Late
19. Mid


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

Here goes nothing!

1 mid
2 late
3 early
4 mid
5 early
6 late
7 early
8 mid
9 early
10 early
11 late
12 early
13 late
14 late
15 early
16 mid
17 early
18 late
19 late

I have no idea who the bonus is, but the dogs are sooo beautiful =) and well behaved to stay lined up =)


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

Here goes nothing
1. E
2.L
3.E
4. L
5.M
6. M
7. E
8. L
9. M
10. E
11. M
12.E
13. L
14. L
15. E
16. E
17. M
18. L
19. L - Very cute pic in the car!!
Mine were all guesses


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## GinnyinPA (Oct 31, 2010)

I don't know enough about the issues to even begin to guess, but I concur, they are all beautiful dogs. What I am seeing seems like the issue is less when they were neutered than whether they were bred for field or for conformation. But that was a lovely slideshow.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Bumping...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Well the video was very charming. But most of the early neuter vs. changes in body type surround the long bones/growth plates and of course a headstudy photo is going to show you nothing of that. Also with such a wide variety of golden types pictured (i.e. show line vs. field line) it is really hard to compare them. I'll refrain from "voting."


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> Well the video was very charming. But most of the early neuter vs. changes in body type surround the long bones/growth plates and of course a headstudy photo is going to show you nothing of that. Also with such a wide variety of golden types pictured (i.e. show line vs. field line) it is really hard to compare them.


^ I felt the same way when I made my guesses. I mean, for example - the second golden (going off of memory, I can't watch vids here at work) was one that I kept glancing at and waffling. Because he had a huge head and seemed well put together, my instinct was to say that he must have been given plenty of time to grow up before the snipping. 

But then again, he appeared to be a conformation type of golden - and one thing about some conformation goldens that I've seen elsewhere is some tend to mature more quickly than others. 

Other goldens (like mine) will have a definite BIG head and big feet when puppies, and then later go through that phase where they appear to have a head too small for their rapidly growing bodies (with Jacks, this happened about that time when some breeders recommend neutering - 7-9 months). 

So that made this contest so difficult and I resorted to guessing. Except for maybe 2 dogs that I definitely recognized, I didn't try figuring out who was who with the other dogs. 

*But I did make my guesses for fun.* As long as everyone pretty much understands that the results must be inconclusive as far as there being noticable differences in every case, I don't see the harm in participating. 

Had the contest been limited (only conformation bred dogs or only field bred dogs), there would still have been issues as far as different lines/breeding and dogs growing at different paces. 

Probably a good example would be with field goldens - I had one who was only 24" at the shoulder, but he appeared much taller than he actually was. This was because he was lightly built and leggier than today's conformation line goldens. <- Probably a reason why having a height/weight info of the dog would have been helpful. 

I don't have any sideways standing pictures of that golden, otherwise I would have submitted one of him. I'll betcha people would have pointed him out as a early neutering based on his legginess, even though he was most definitely intact all his life.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

In all honesty this is so fundamentally flawed that no conclusive evidence can be drawn in any direction however, I am certainly seeing a "trend" that may or may not be of some interest. If more people would throw caution to the wind and start guessing the more relevent some of the findings would be.... and the more fun it would end up being!!!!!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Well the video was very charming. But most of the early neuter vs. changes in body type surround the long bones/growth plates and of course a headstudy photo is going to show you nothing of that. Also with such a wide variety of golden types pictured (i.e. show line vs. field line) it is really hard to compare them. I'll refrain from "voting."


That seems to contradict what people keep saying about the influence of neutering timing on look. I mean, I personally agree with you, but given what so many people say in the threads debating neutering, it would seem to be pretty easy.

And people especially comment at how dramatic the change is to the head.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> That seems to contradict what people keep saying about the influence of neutering timing on look. I mean, I personally agree with you, but given what so many people say in the threads debating neutering, it would seem to be pretty easy.
> 
> And people especially comment at how dramatic the change is to the head.


I will be very disappointed if you don't post your guesses on this thread tippy. I mean VASTLY disappointed. So much so, I might cry myself to sleep or find myself at the bottom of a very big bottle (I'm talking huge). Imagine the one guy who says you can't tell wins the contest? That would be pure irony wouldn't it?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Braccarius said:


> I will be very disappointed if you don't post your guesses on this thread tippy. I mean VASTLY disappointed. So much so, I might cry myself to sleep or find myself at the bottom of a very big bottle (I'm talking huge). Imagine the one guy who says you can't tell wins the contest? That would be pure irony wouldn't it?


Just to clarify, I never said that you can't tell at all but rather that the effects weren't easily visible most of the time and that genes had a lot more effect on legginess, height, and head shape than neutering. I do think that boys especially develop muscle differently when they're intact, and that can lead to a different "look."

I'll guess, though, in order to be a good sport. And I'll guess according to what I've heard people say about what neutering does. Leggier dogs with narrower, snipier heads, I'm going to mark as earlier, and stockier, broader dogs with lots of stop are going to get marked as later.


1. M
2. L
3. E
4. M
5. M
6. L
7. E
8. L
9. M
10. M
11. L
12. E
13. L
14. L
15. E
16. E
17. E
18. L
19. L


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> Just to clarify, I never said that you can't tell at all but rather that the effects weren't easily visible most of the time and that genes had a lot more effect on legginess, height, and head shape than neutering. I do think that boys especially develop muscle differently when they're intact, and that can lead to a different "look."
> 
> 
> I agree. I have Tally out with his intact littermates alot, including Am CH Gabe, his brother and Can Ch Eve, his intact sis. You cannot tell who is intact by just looking. I do think there is truth to the "spay coat" though, in some cases. Finn's coat looks horrible compared to his intact brother Riptide. However, Finn is a more substantial dog than Rip bonewise with more head. You could never say he is leggier or weedier than his intact brother even though he is neutered. At summer shows, it will be easy to take a photo of Finn& Rip and then Gabe & Tally for everyone to compare- 2 sets of brothers- 1 neutered at 7 months and 1intact in each pair.


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## ILoveMyGolden (Oct 19, 2006)

Oh this is fun!!!

1. Early Neuter
2. Late Neuter
3. Early Neuter
4. Early Neuter
5. Late Neuter
6. Early Neuter
7. Early Neuter
8. Early Neuter
9. Early Neuter
10. Mid Neuter
11. Early Neuter
12. Early Neuter
13. Mid Neuter
14. Mid Neuter
15. Early Neuter
16. Early Neuter
17. Early Neuter
18. Early Neuter
19. Late Neuter

....but what do I know? Loved the song, they're all wonderful!


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

I loved that video, so many GORGEOUS Goldens all together and the bonus is that they are our GFR Goldens!!! :artydude

I have to agree that there is know way to know by looking at those pictures but I will have some fun and guess.


EN
LN
EN
MN
EN
LN
MN
MN
MN
LN
MN
EN
MN
LN
EN
EN
MN
LN
MN

The bonus picture is driving me crazy, I think I have seen it somewhere before... love that picture. Can I guess later but before Friday?? 

I just want to say - :thanks: for putting this altogether and I don't envy you having to "grade" the guesses. Can't wait to see how I did. You should not only post the results but it would be interesting to see the stats on each contestant too.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I find there is a definite difference in coat texture re:intact or not. My spayed/neutered dogs have more cottony coats and long cottony feathers. My Can Ch/AKC pointed bitch who was spayed at 7 1/2 years last year, has a totally changed coat.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> I find there is a definite difference in coat texture re:intact or not. My spayed/neutered dogs have more cottony coats and long cottony feathers. My Can Ch/AKC pointed bitch who was spayed at 7 1/2 years last year, has a totally changed coat.


We noticed the same thing with our one golden who was 10 at the time. When his coat finally grew back (they shaved off all of his trousers and even part of his tail for the surgery) it grew longer and silkier than before. He'd always had a smooth silky coat, but not to that extreme.


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## lily101 (Nov 8, 2010)

great thread glad you started it!!


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Bumping.....


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

Come on gang, we need more players!!! 

It's fun, doesn't take long and who knows.... your guesses just might win. It's not scientific just for fun... please join in!!!


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

Bumping Up


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Totally for fun.....


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

WOW what a beautiful group of goldens and I loved the music. This was really hard but here goes.
1. early neuter
2. late neuter
3. early neuter
4. mid neuter
5. mid neuter
6. mid neuter
7. early neuter
8. late neuter
9. early neuter
10. mid neuter
11. late neuter
12. early neuter
13. mid neuter
14. late neuter
15. early neuter
16. early neuter
17. early neuter
18. mid neuter
19. mid neuter
Are those Claire's kids??
Can't wait to see the answers.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think we should extend the deadline. Few of the experts who are sure they can tell the difference have found the thread and made guesses, and I was really hoping to see how they did.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

I think we can wait til Monday ;-)


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Can the mods change the title so that pp know what this thread is? I almost didn't want to click on it because I thought it would be just another early/late neuter debate.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

haha... so far we've got 19 contestants!!!!!  C'mon GRF! I had almost 30 people send me pictures!


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

I too, thought this thread was going to be about when to neuter. Then I clicked and realized it was this contest. 

Maybe people are thinking the same thing.

It's very interesting to see the results so far.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Okay, here are my guesses but I traditionally neuter my dogs only once they are senior citizens (if at all), so don't have much experience LOL

1 - Early
2 - late
3 - early
4 - mid
5 - late
6 - late
7 - early
8 - late
9 - mid
10 - early
11 - late
12 - early
13 - mid
14 - late
15 - early
16 - mid
17 - late
18 - late
19 - mid


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

More voters needed......


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## rubysdoghouse (Sep 27, 2010)

OK here goes from a rookie.

1. early
2. late
3. early 
4. mid
5. late
6. late
7. early
8. mid
9. mid 
10. mid
11. late
12. early 
13. late
14. late
15. early
16. mid
17. mid
18. late
19. late


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Bump it up


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

jackie_hubert said:


> Can the mods change the title so that pp know what this thread is? I almost didn't want to click on it because I thought it would be just another early/late neuter debate.


This is a good idea - I passed this thread the first time because I thought it was just another debate (been there, done that). The word "_*contest*_" would really help draw attention and more "contestants".


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

I agree. I wonder if contest could be added???


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## ebenjamin85 (Apr 13, 2008)

So not only do I know nothing about this (other than what I've read on GRF), but I've never owned a male dog. So here goes nothing...

1. E
2. L
3. M
4. M
5. L
6. L
7. E
8. L
9. E
10. L
11. M
12. E
13. M
14. L
15. M
16. E
17. E
18. M
19. E


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

Hope to see more responses.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

bump

I know it's past Friday... but any late guessers??


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I believe it goes until Monday, now.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

In case you haven't figured it out, I have a stake(or is it steak?) in this... VOTE


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

hahahaha... Sally


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

1 Mid
2 Late
3 Late
4 Mid
5 Mid
6 Late
7 Early
8 late
9 Mid
10 mid
11 late
12 early
13 mid
14 late
15 early
16early 
17 mid
18 Mid
19 Late


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@last pic - are those Sally's Mom's dogs?  

One dog in the picture reel was actually 3 instead of 2. I don't think it makes much difference....


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> @last pic - are those Sally's Mom's dogs?


My thoughts exactly. I had actually guessed her in my mind but never seen pics of her dogs! Oh well!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

It's just that I voted and I want to see if I am "more" correct than someone else!!!


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

bumping up!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

1. Early
2. Late
3. Mid
4. Early
5. Early
6. Early
7. Early
8. Late
9. Mid
10. Late
11. Mid
12. Mid
13. Mid
14. Late
15. Early
16. Mid
17. Early
18. Mid
19. Early

Last picture - Sally's Mom

All guesses!!


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

bumping again - 1 more day!!


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Bumping........


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Here are my guesses

1. L or not at all
2. L or not at all
3. Mid
4. Late or not at all
5. Mid
6. Mid
7. Mid
8. Late or not at all
9. Mid
10. Early
11. Late or not at all
12. Mid
13. Late or not at all
14. Late or not at all
15. Mid
16. Late or not at all
17. Mid
18. Mid
19. Mid


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Bump it1 it up!


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

Results day!!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Soooo what are the results?


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## MittaBear (Mar 9, 2010)

I'm interested to see the results and see if I even got a few right.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

haha you guys gotta wait til I get off work! I'll post them tonight at around 9 EST LoL ;-)


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

9 EST.... 

Then again, that's probably going to be the time frame that I get up our street and into the house if it doesn't get plowed out. Last I heard there were cars stuck sideways and blocking the road that even the tow truck couldn't unstuck. !


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Excited for results!


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Answer Sheet:

#1 Is a two year old Intact Unaltered Male. 
#2 Is a three year old intact unaltered Male 
#3 Was neutered at four months old and was 2 years in pictures 
#4 was neutered at five months old and was 5 years in pictures 
#5 was neutered at seven months old and was 3 years in picture 
#6 was neutered at one year old and is 2 1/2 years in pictures 
#7 was neutered at four months old and was 3 years in pictures 
#8 was neutered at one year and is 3 years in pictures 
#9 is an intact male at four years old. 
#10 was neutered at two years old and is 12 in pictures 
#11 is an intact three year old male. 
#12 was neutered at 28 months and is 45 months in pictures. 
#13 was 13 months at neuter and two and a half at pictures. 
#14 is a three and a half year old intact male. 
#15 was neutered at 6 months old and is 3 in pictures. 
#16 was neutered at 6 months and is around 6 years in pictures 
#17 was neutered at 1 year old and is 2 1/2 in pictures 
#18 was neutered at 11 months and is 3 in the pictures 
#19 was 8 months old at neuter and four years old in pictures.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Caronlina Casey 10/19
eSsjay 5/19
Willow52 7/19
]ackie_Hubert 8/19
Megora 7/19 +1 BOnus
GoldenOwner12 6/19
Sally's Mom 10/19 +1 Bonus
Ian'sgran 5/19
Val-Jake's my golden boy 9/19
MittaBear 6/19
Chelsea10 6/19
GoldenLover84 7/19
Amanda 9/19
Goldenjackpuppy 9/19
Wenryder 10/19
Summer's Mom 8/19
FinnTastic 8/19
Tippykayak 7/19
IloveMyGolden 8/19 
Sunrise 7/19
RubysDogHouse 8/19
ebenjamin85 7/19
Muddypaws 10/19
Ignutah 7/19
Jo Ellen 9/19 +1 Bonus
Solinvictus 6/19


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

01Overall: Early 66.66%We Were WRONG
02Overall: Late 87.5% We were RIGHT!
03Overall: Early 79.16% We were RIGHT!
04Overall: Mid 62% We Were WRONG
05Overall: Mid 41.6% We Were WRONG
06Overall: Late 58.3% We Were WRONG
07Overall: Early 91.6% We were RIGHT!
08Overall: Late 62.5% We Were WRONG
09Overall: Mid 52% We Were WRONG
10Overall: Mid 50% We Were WRONG
11Overall: Mid 50% We Were WRONG
12Overall: Early 91.6% We Were WRONG
13Overall: Late 58.3% We Were WRONG
14Overall: Late 79.1% We were RIGHT!
15Overall: Early 83.3% We were RIGHT!
16 Overall: Early 58.3% We were RIGHT!
17 Overall: Mid 45.8% We Were WRONG
18 Overall: Late 45.8% We Were WRONG
19 Overall: Late 50% We Were WRONG


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

Wow I did pretty bad, and I knew the answers for 2 of the dogs!!!


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

*CONGRATULATIONS SALLYSMOM ON WINNING THE COMPETITION*

Everybody congratulate SallysMom on having the most BEAUTIFUL dogs for the end photo. As a result, she got the +1 bonus... but because it was her dogs it still felt a little wrong... so I drew the the four who shared the highest score out of a hat.... and SallysMom won again... pretty much she's a big cheater (LoL just kidding).

*In Closing*

The most when looking at the dogs 02 and 07 were both neutered at 4 months. We hit the nail on the head at almost 90% certainty that these dogs were neutered prior to a year. Also, number 15 was neutered prior around 6 months... and he was 80% certainty on this board. So... for looks it appears as though if you neuter prior to 6 months of age we're going to probably hit it. 

The fundamental flaw in this is that we really have no other information or perfect stacked pictures. If a dog is from a field breeder it is going to sneak past us such as with #12 (I believe). We were 90% wrong on that guy! I think if you were to take conformation dogs and stack them side by side this would make it almost elementary and more so if it was from a linebreeder. 

Thank you to EVERYBODY who sent me pictures... you guys were wonderful. Again if somebody's dogs didn't get in don't feel bad. A special thanks to SallysMom for her beautiful picture of her trick or treaters.... I'm already on my way with a cube van to steal them. And a very special thanks to the shameless bumpers and guessers who put themselves out there for me to ridicule about their obvious lack of skill!


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

and an Honorable Mention to Jo Ellen for having daisy the wonderdog.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

Any statisticians out there? If the best was just over half right and the worst (me) was just over 25% right what are the odds that just complete guessing would get you as good as the winner?


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

This whole thread I was shocked at just how many people thought Tucker was neutered late (or maybe were just guessing randomly? ?)

He was #19


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Braccarius said:


> and an Honorable Mention to Jo Ellen for having daisy the wonderdog.


Laughing OUT loud 

:bowl: :bowl: :bowl:


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Well the thing that I noticed is pretty much after 6 months... all hell broke loose. We couldn't tell anything. I tried on my own guessing the ages after I did the video and even I only got 9 or so right. I think the younger the dog... the less bone mass he has... the more it is going to show. So if you have a 6 month old that is already 80-90% of his size the reality is... perhaps only 5% of it changes? At 4 months old when the dog still has 50% or more growth to go... we see more change.

If this were myth busters... I would label it as plausible.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Oh and another thing... I did the statistics yesterday... so they are slightly skewed but I didn't want to redo them :-(


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

GoldenLover84 said:


> This whole thread I was shocked at just how many people thought Tucker was neutered late (or maybe were just guessing randomly? ?)
> 
> He was #19


A lot of random guessing at that point, I'll bet. :bowl:

By the time I got past Jacks (#14, and he's a year older than was advertized), I think I was rushing to get out the door (it was dog class night). 

When I looked at the video later, I recognized a couple dogs who I knew were either neutered later or not at all (Einstein was one of those I got wrong), er... but I didn't think it was fair to go back and change my answers.  

I don't deserve that bonus point either, since I only guessed that based on something Sally's Mom said. She has a lot of sweet pretty goldens.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

well i did pretty bad.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Megora said:


> A lot of random guessing at that point, I'll bet. :bowl:
> 
> By the time I got past Jacks (#14, and he's a year older than was advertized), I think I was rushing to get out the door (it was dog class night).
> 
> ...


No pointing out my screw-ups! That is strictly forbidden! (I fixed it). Actually I had to guess on one or two because I was missing information. (I think one was Einstein... and the other was a 5-7 range in the picture)


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I Love to cheat XOXO Sally's Mom


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Just kidding XOXO Sally's Mom


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

Hahaha congrats Sally's Mom!  love your doggies.. Kisses to them!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have the best doggies,Summer's Mom. They are at my feet as I read the results!


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

You have to e-mail me your mailing info Sally ...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Thank you,Braccarius. I personally thought this was fun as I know so many breeders who say the boys won't get "heads" and I think one of my boys fooled most. (And the other with the better "neutered" head did not make it!!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Thank you, Summer's Mom, they will all be kissed tonight....


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> Thank you,Braccarius. I personally thought this was fun as I know so many breeders who say the boys won't get "heads" and I think one of my boys fooled most. (And the other with the better "neutered" head did not make it!!


But you did notice a difference between those that were neutered early or not, right? Otherwise, how did you get 10 right? 



> No pointing out my screw-ups!


Then I won't be bratty and correct you a second time.... or a third time (I think there were numbers that were slightly off...) :


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

My Einstein was number 10


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

Braccarius said:


> The most when looking at the dogs 02 and 07 were both neutered at 4 months. We hit the nail on the head at almost 90% certainty that these dogs were neutered prior to a year.



.. you mean dogs #3 and #7? #2 is intact.




For the rest of you who are wondering, dog #2 (Marley) belongs to Molson's breeder and dog #18 is my parents dog, Skoker  

I'm interested to hear who the rest of the dogs are!


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

I was going to ask who #2 was. He's BEAUTIFUL!


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

jackie_hubert said:


> I was going to ask who #2 was. He's BEAUTIFUL!


I love him, he is so easy going, such a sweetheart and a beauty too!


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Congrats to Sally's Mom!!!!

This was fun. 

I think it is interesting that a breeder had one of the best scores. Even though this was done for fun there may be something to some breeders, vets and those involved with a certain breed extensively being able to tell more about the dogs in person than just any lay person. 

By the way no one got number one right but me and that doesn't count because he is my dog. LOL
My first dog not in the pictures didn't completely mature until after the age of 4 and even though Helie isn't from the same pedigree at all it looks like he isn't going to completely mature until very late also.


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## MittaBear (Mar 9, 2010)

Ian'sgran said:


> Any statisticians out there? If the best was just over half right and the worst (me) was just over 25% right what are the odds that just complete guessing would get you as good as the winner?


Sorry, math geek reporting in late. 

The probability of getting at least 10 right with complete guessing is only about 2.73%

The expected number you would get right with complete guessing is 5.67 - so about 5 or 6. 

Mine were really all guesses since I really have no clue how to tell, so it doesn't surprise me that I only got 6. I'm gonna have to go back and look at them again to see which were early, mid, and late.

Thanks for putting that together, it was fun.


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## MittaBear (Mar 9, 2010)

And congrats to Sally's Mom! I loved the last picture.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

MittaBear said:


> The probability of getting at least 10 right with complete guessing is only about 2.73%
> 
> The expected number you would get right with complete guessing is 5.67 - so about 5 or 6.


Wow, I got 9 right, guessed all the way through. Maybe I should start buying lottery tickets :


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## MittaBear (Mar 9, 2010)

Jo Ellen said:


> Wow, I got 9 right, guessed all the way through. Maybe I should start buying lottery tickets :


Good job! You're better at guessing than I am. The probability of getting 9 or more right based on complete guesses is about 7.5%...so I'd say go for that lottery ticket.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Not too shabby, 10/19!  

This was definitely interesting. Thanks for putting it together.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Here's my thought processes on this.... 

As it stands, if you look at how we did, we only got 6 out of 19 as a group. Statistically, that is about how well somebody would do if they were to guess. This would paint a picture that in truth.... we had no idea... but that is very misleading. 

*Results*
Here's the thing on #3, #7 #15 and #16 we were almost 80% convinced they were all early neuters. On twenty two participants you can be absolutely certain that this means we knew that the dog in question was an early neuter. The one that snuck by us is #4. He was neutered at 5 months old.... guesses were 62% convinced he was a mid-neuter. The final guys were 18 & 19 we were 50% certain they were "late" when in reality both were neutered after 8 months. Out of 7 dogs who were neutered prior to a year, we got 4 out of 7. Out of the three we missed they were the two with relatively late neuters (8 months and 11 months respectively) and they we had 50% uncertainty. 

*Whats this mean?*
The earlier you neuter your male... the more obvious it is. Even if you have no idea about their lines or lineage... people (mostly laymen) are picking up on it. If you neuter at 4 or 5 months old, we quite simply seem to know. After a year we really can't tell based on a picture whether or not a dog was an early neuter. But, consider this... for the remaining 12 questions we were one off on all but 2 of them. That means we were 10/12 calling lates mids and mids lates or getting 2 right. The ones we were two off were #01 (Early 66%), #12 (Early 91.6%). Now, consider this... are #1 and 12 from field breeders? The remaining two we were two off on were early neuters we called late. Consider this though, could it be that they were conformation bred Goldens with a strong bone foundation genetically or dogs who matured early? 

*My Final, very Final Word*
If you were to take a male from any breeder and neuter one a 4-7 months old people who are unfamiliar with the lines but familiar with Goldens are going to notice. If you take a Golden from a conformation breeder and neuter him at say 6-7 months old, he may by passed off as an agility bred dog.

Now, if we as a group knowing nothing about the dogs lineage or their heritage or breeding stock were able to pick up on the early neuters 60% of the time... is it hard to imagine a breeder noticing differences in his or her linebred dogs? I would with some confidence say, if you neutered a dog at 12 months and left his similar brothers intact and stood all three side by side that any breeder would pick him out of their line-up. Further, for those that are striving hard to meet breed standard and looking for that PERFECT bone structure with each pairing, I don't find it a stretch to think that they would notice a dog neutered at 12 months.


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

That was fun. Thanks for doing all that hard work for us and congrats to Sally'sMom.
Finn was early neuter boy #3 ...... thanks to the vet who adamantly wanted him done ASAP(sarcasm) This is all before we knew anything about letting Finn mature first and thinking a vet would know what they are talking about


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

FinnTastic said:


> That was fun. Thanks for doing all that hard work for us and congrats to Sally'sMom.
> Finn was early neuter boy #3 ...... thanks to the vet who adamantly wanted him done ASAP(sarcasm) This is all before we knew anything about letting Finn mature first and thinking a vet would know what they are talking about


This is becoming more and more common. Believe it or not I spoke to a vet recently and one of her arguments for neutering at 4 months is the dogs actually get bigger.....


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

Braccarius said:


> This is becoming more and more common. Believe it or not I spoke to a vet recently and one of her arguments for neutering at 4 months is the dogs actually get bigger.....


:doh: Maybe she should take our quiz


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## ILoveMyGolden (Oct 19, 2006)

I have #4.

He was neutered at 5 months. (*I know...I know*) He is my parents dog/the original reason I joined here. 

The reasoning (if you can call it that) he was done at 5 months is that the vet screwed up and as a January baby called in June (6th month...?) even though he was actually only 5 months old in the 6th month. We didn't know any better at the time and just did what the vet said. We've changed vets  Bailey was 5 in those photos and if you look at my old posts in the Health forum we've had all sorts of trouble with him. He is BYB, but dang he's cute!


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

I don't think anybody here should be apologetic at all for having their dog neutered "early". Quite the contrary... you followed in all likelihood the advice of a vet... how are you to feel guilty about that? A lot of us didn't know a lot of things before we logged in here.... I had no idea about clearances prior to getting Harley.


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

This was a fun contest and interesting. Congratulations Sally's Mom, I love that Halloween picture. 

Can't believe I got 10/19, I went through the video 3 times and to be honest I was looking at the coats more then then heads or bone structure. As mentioned, with different lines and the whole conformation/field structure differences I didn't feel that bone structure would be a big clue. I also considered the age of the dogs, figuring that older dogs were more then likely neutered earlier then later due to the common urging of vets to neuter at 6 months. I would have to go back and look at my answers, could be I got them all wrong and just "lucked-out". 

Anyway, Darby was #8, he was a "mid" neuter at 1 year.

Thanks Braccarius - that really was fun!!!


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

The expected number you would get right with complete guessing is 5.67 - so about 5 or 6. 
So had I just plain guessed I would have done the same as I did. Go figure. I was the 5.


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## MittaBear (Mar 9, 2010)

Ian'sgran said:


> The expected number you would get right with complete guessing is 5.67 - so about 5 or 6.
> So had I just plain guessed I would have done the same as I did. Go figure. I was the 5.


Don't feel bad - I only got 6. Not much better.


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

I guessed but I didn't see my results. My boy was # 11. I am gold4me


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

kooper, is #16, done at 6 months, he was 7 in that picture, not 5.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

gold4me said:


> I guessed but I didn't see my results. My boy was # 11. I am gold4me


I love gooooooooooooold.... 9/19


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## Augustus McCrae's Mom (Aug 14, 2007)

Braccarius said:


> The fundamental flaw in this is that we really have no other information or perfect stacked pictures. If a dog is from a field breeder it is going to sneak past us such as with #12 (I believe). We were 90% wrong on that guy!


That's my Gus! And while he's happy that he managed to trick most everyone, he is a little embarrassed that everyone thought he looked less manly than he _promises_ he is :


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