# Speaking of breaking



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

If I have dog who has been having an issue with confidence or no-goes, I am letting them break if they want to while building up that drive! Yes, a break is going to fail us in a test, but not going is going to be a fail before we even get started.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Agreed 100%. I also will not correct if I am late and miss the actual break (butt up for example). 



sterregold said:


> If I have dog who has been having an issue with confidence or no-goes, I am letting them break if they want to while building up that drive! Yes, a break is going to fail us in a test, but not going is going to be a fail before we even get started.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Really, it's all about confidence in the end, isn't it Shelly? That's how it seems to me. If you start with a dog with even a small amount of instinct and talent, and keep his/her confidence up, you'll get where you want to go.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

At this point, I correct it. 
But the correction is not just for honor. On multiples I will see her butt come for the ground a bit more for each bird. By time the third one is down, if eye don't keep an eye on it, she will break. It is a maintenance thing with us. She will stay tacked down for awhile but then it creeps in again. 
On the test last year when she broke her honor, she was vibrating though the marks and gone on "Dog".


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hollyk said:


> At this point, I correct it.
> But the correction is not just for honor. On multiples I will see her butt come for the ground a bit more for each bird. By time the third one is down, if eye don't keep an eye on it, she will break. It is a maintenance thing with us. She will stay tacked down for awhile but then it creeps in again.
> On the test last year when she broke her honor, she was vibrating though the marks and gone on "Dog".


And she has plenty of desire and no issue going--so that is a reasonable expectation. A dog like this who does not have that expectation maintained can become a test-wise, chronic breaker. So it really is about knowing the dog you are running and their issues.

By contrast my Butch has had some confidence issues on water, especially with memory birds. So with him, I wanted him excited to the point of "vibrating" and now the work is dialling him back without squashing that excitement.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

One thing I have started doing before a run is I will use leash pressure like you do when proofing stays. I tell her sit and put pressure on the leash telling her good sit as she is working against the pull. I think it is helping her remember sit means sit.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> When a dog breaks, do you always correct it, or do you sometimes let it go (in training of course) ? Why would you make that choice?


Training vs. Tests or Trials is the question. I am basically of the opinion that occasional breaking can become chronic breaking, especially if it occurs at a trial--the dog can figure out it can get away with it. So, I look at it a little differently. Breaking during training, I *might* let go (although I can't think of any reason I would with my dogs, but yours may be different) but if they break at a trial, I am going to do everything short of earning a misconduct hearing to make sure the dog doesn't get the bird.

My golden never breaks in training, except every once and a while on a blind, and that doesn't bother me too much. He has broken at HTs but otherwise his line manners are good. He has plenty of drive, so I see no problem stopping him. I have seen dogs where breaking is a positive sign, though, but not mine. I think you have to know your dog.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Not to hijack this thread but I have a question about breaking. A friend of ours was at a hunt test last weekend and and when he when to the line he suspected that the honor dog was going to break. Sure enough, the dog did break but instead of going for the bird, the honor dog ran over to his dog and bit him! Once attacked, our friends dog fought back but was not seriously hurt.

So, what would cause this behavior (in the breaking dog) and how in the world would you ever deal with it?

Would this offense by the honor dog be serious enough to be banned from future Hunt Tests? If it were my dog I don't think that I would not trust him in a Hunt Test situation ever again.

Thoughts?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I don't know...but I would certainly hope so....



Leslie B said:


> Would this offense by the honor dog be serious enough to be banned from future Hunt Tests? Thoughts?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

It would happen because the dog understood the other dog was going to get the birds, so rather than trying to break and race to the birds it decided to take out the rival.

It happened on line in full view of the judges. That is a dog on whom a report needs to be made, and should be made according to the regulation. Once that report is made against the dog, it would have to go to a full hearing with AKC to be reinstated, I would imagine. As its owner, I would have serious doubts about ever running the dog again even if it did get reinstated.

A friend's dog was suspended over an incident at an obedience trial a couple of years ago. In the out of sight down stays portion of Open, the dog beside him got up and pounced on him, and started humping him. He reacted, and things escalated into a scuffle, and he ended up getting suspended even though he had not started the incident. He has been reinstated, and has had no issues since as he is not actually a truly aggressive dog. The case you describe is a truly aggressive dog, who is willing to do whatever it takes to keep another dog from getting the retrieve. That one I would never be able to trust in a test again.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

sterregold said:


> It happened on line in full view of the judges. That is a dog on whom a report needs to be made, and should be made according to the regulation. Once that report is made against the dog, it would have to go to a full hearing with AKC to be reinstated, I would imagine. As its owner, I would have serious doubts about ever running the dog again even if it did get reinstated.


I have a dog that has had honor dog issues twice. His very first senior hunt test the honor dog broke and body slammed him and took him out on the way to the bird--he had a better angle to beat him to it. Judges decided not to write the dog up.

Second time, my dog was in the holding blind and the honor dog's handler wasn't paying attention as he was moving to the honor bucket. Honor dog came into the holding blind and basically attacked my dog. My wife was handling--her first or second time at the line--and barely breathing and wasn't really noticing. No damage or anything but the judges did write that dog up and eject it from the test. I was scared to death we would be written up as well but the judges saw the whole thing and we were not. My wife was able to recover and get the dog through the series--it was way harder on her than the dog 

Interestingly HT and FT rules are slightly different. In HTs dogs cannot be entered if they are subject of two such reports. In FTs, the dog gets three strikes.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

gdgli said:


> I really don't know what everyone else does with honoring but I usually don't work on honoring in what I consider the early stages of training.


I have quoted gdgli from the thread about Darcy - the FCR. Any ideas on this? I figured we would need to teach Darcy how to honor so we can work both her and Rose. Any detriments in teaching honoring during marking drills? (She is now only doing single marks).


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

The detriment is that you are teaching a dog not to go before you have established a habit of confident momentum on marks. Trying to work two dogs at once on separate lessons means neither dog has your full attention to really work on the skills you are teaching. 

I usually work 2-4 dogs when I go out training. The ones I am not working are in their crates on the truck. I only do honour work when I can concentrate on that lesson--i.e. someone else is running their dog, and I am actively handling the honour dog. I will do jealousy drills with Wings and one of my other dogs (but prefer to have one of my friends run one of their dogs instead--which is good for some of the more advanced dogs as then they can work on skills like cold honours or partial mark set retrieves that we sometimes see in tests), but when I am alone and have to use one of my own dogs, the stand-in dog is sitting tethered until and unless I need them to go get the mark.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

How about two handlers and a thrower? IE I will handle Rose and DH will handle Darcy while DD is throwing?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Is Darcy going out on all marks with confidence and momentum yet? If not, I would not want the other distraction sitting our beside her. You would be better off having two gunners out in the field so that you can work on focus and building up to teaching doubles with good separation between the marks.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

so far she does singles with great enthusiasm and momentum. Goes in a great straight line, comes back the same. Both on land and water. She does tend to break and has to be reminded to whoa until she is sent. Once sent she flies. 

Next week DD in coming home and if everything goes well with the breeder tomorrow :crossfing , hopefully I can have more pics and videos done. DD has the camera with her overseas.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

IMO Don't worry about honoring until your dog is steady on marks. 
Honoring is something you teach systematically over time, not just blitzkrieg the dog with marks they cannot retrieve then hang on for dear life. 
To answer the original question, yup -- "it depends" -- have I let a break in training go for the sake of attitude/momentum? Yep. Have I taken a hard stand and corrected big time for breaking even though I didn't want to? Yep. Both turned out to be good moves at that time.
Breaking on a blind? Go for it dude! LOL Slater has done that in a test, hysterical.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

I would never let breaking go for my dogs, but they don't have any momentum or confidence problems with marks. I think 3 times a behavior becomes a habit, so after once, I am in panic mode.

Gladys just started breaking a couple weeks before finishing up her senior title. Interestingly, she was coming out of season at the time. I always think they get a bit squirrely then. She was never breaking before.

We did a lot of breaking bird training and honoring. She got some corrections, and twice I made her sit while **I** went out and picked up the bird and she didn't get to pick up anything. That fixed her wagon. We never had any trouble since then.

I'm pretty sure I would throw a test rather than reward a break with my dogs.


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