# How good is your dog on poison bird blinds?



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

It depends. Are you talking about a poison bird that's down before he gets sent on the blind, or about a diversion bird that's thrown while he's en route to the blind? How close to the line?
I think one needs to answer the question first of how important it would be in a hunting situation before you can answer whether it should be in a hunt test or field trial. Especially the hunt tests, which are supposed to simulate hunting (ha ha), if it's not something you'd see often in hunting, it doesn't belong in a hunt test.
I don't hunt enough to know the answer. When we've been pheasant hunting, it's one bird at a time (except for tower shoots/driven hunts), so there would be no poison birds.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> It depends. Are you talking about a poison bird that's down before he gets sent on the blind, or about a diversion bird that's thrown while he's en route to the blind?


Either one is a poison bird blind, and both serve as diversion factors. The "en route poison bird" is the more difficult concept of the two.


hotel4dogs said:


> How close to the line?


In hunting you'll never be able to predict it. In a test it is pre-determined by the judges. In addition, the concepts involved are also determined by the judges, such as:


Blind behind the gun
Blind past the old fall
Blind through the arc of the fall
Blind through the fall (completely unfair as a poison bird blind)
Those are standard diversion mark concepts, and the first three are what are commonly taught and tested, both in field trials and in hunt tests. They are perfectly appropriate to use in either testing venue, as poison bird blinds are among the most important field skills for gundogs.


hotel4dogs said:


> I think one needs to answer the question first of how important it would be in a hunting situation before you can answer whether it should be in a hunt test or field trial. Especially the hunt tests, which are supposed to simulate hunting (ha ha), if it's not something you'd see often in hunting, it doesn't belong in a hunt test.


I'm with you on the "reality" involved in testing! Only hunting is hunting, but I appreciate efforts to include aspects that are at least as realistic as possible in hunt tests. A test can never contain what all hunts do; sponteneity. But "yes", the poison bird blind is among the most realistic/hunting-like concepts. And understand this about any blind retrieve in a testing venue; it is not valid merely because one might need to run one while hunting. It is valid because it is a test of control and a dog's willingness to take direction from a handler. Adding the poison bird concept elevates the demand on training and handling, making it a more elite level of test.


hotel4dogs said:


> I don't hunt enough to know the answer. When we've been pheasant hunting, it's one bird at a time (except for tower shoots/driven hunts), so there would be no poison birds.


You need to hunt with us out in western Kansas. Multiple birds on a rise is commonplace, and a running crippled pheasant can leave the county in a hurry. If one or more birds were clean kills, buy one is crippled and running, you'd better get that dog on him quickly or he's lost game!

EvanG


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hmmm. I would say I put a poison bird into our training setups maybe 20% of the time. It depends where the dog's head is at. If the dog is having confidence issues on either marks or blinds I wouldn't worry about it but if the dog is doing well in all aspects, a poison bird sorta puts everything together. Nice way to put some memory into a single and a lot of suction into a blind. 
I rarely "test" when training. If I think the dog may have trouble with the blind or mark involved with the poison bird setup I would run either as a single or stand-alone before doing the setup. 
I have run across only two poison bird series in master tests, one each with Fisher & Slater.
The one with Fisher, was a short land single walkup, turn away and run a double blind, then pick up poison bird.
With Slater, they shot a poison bird angle back right into a pond, you had to then run a 100 shoreline blind tight (5 yards) past the backside of the gunner -- yikes!!!! That was a little like herding cats. WAY over Slater's head at that time but he pulled it out. 

As always judges are looking for you to challenge the blind and handle through suction & factors.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

EvanG said:


> [*]Blind behind the gun
> 
> [*]Blind past the old fall
> 
> [*]Blind through the arc of the fall


These are the concepts we are presently working on with our mark/blind drill. I will not be introducing poison bird until she is solidly running this drill and showing me she gets the concepts in set ups. Then we can up the ante, we need to be able to walk before we can run. .
I have a Senior level dog that is starting down the path to Master.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Excellent Holly.

Those are the standard concepts in diversion marks. And you're doing the right thing by not start with poison bird. Get it really solid in standard order first. You might consider using the Four Phase Drill to do this. It's up to you, but it's very effective.










EvanG


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

With such frequent discussion of ambitions for MH titles and QAA achievements, and more, it's a little disappointing to see so little discussion on this topic. The ability to perform efficient, effective poison bird blinds is one of the most valuable skills a hunting retriever can possess. It's one a Master Hunter should be highly competent at, if indeed he is a Master-level dog.

And as a field trial dog you're not going very far unless you're really good at this! Period.

EvanG


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I would love to join the discussion but I am not there yet. BaWaaJige is still a young dog 1 1/2yrs old and is not at that level I am working on him being solid on running/marking doubles and I just started some blind drills.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I enjoy reading these discussions for future reference. 
With Rose only at 6 months we are concentrating on obedience and working hold and marking. I got Evan's puppy retriever training video as I was really confused about the paint rollers.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> I enjoy reading these discussions for future reference.
> With Rose only at 6 months we are concentrating on obedience and working hold and marking. I got Evan's puppy retriever training video as I was really confused about the paint rollers.


I hope the DVD cleared that up?

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

we are busy hunting 
And trying to clean up some *issues*, and coming up on the busy agility trial season (I want to get his MXP and MJP titles if possible) so we've put most of our training on hold until Spring.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

EvanG said:


> I hope the DVD cleared that up?
> 
> EvanG


yup, I am holding off on the ear thingy.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

One of the last times I trained with my trainer we worked in this. The group was MH/FT dogs and handlers to beginners. It was fun to see the finished concept worked on then how to train on it too. 

My dog is preparing for SH we are running land blinds "ok" need more work with water. We are city folk who train when and where we can our trainer is a two hour drive away. 

What we did with my dog that day, was run the blinds first. They were planted in a familiar spot for all the dogs who run blinds. Then (again for my dog) threw a mark left to right mid field, I was told to send her on the left blind. So it wasn't really "poison" other than the fact she saw the mark, but was sent on the blind. I thought 'no way she will do this'. She nailed it. The upper level dogs were sent to run past the "poison" bird, but my dog was not ready for that. Trainer cautioned over training this concept. He also made sure for us newer folk we set it up right for our level of dog. I hesitate to work too much complicated stuff for fear an issue will arise "I" can't work out of. I don't have anyone near me with more experience than myself. 

We worked diversion marks with both our dogs this past summer. Meaning a second mark thrown while dog is returning with a mark. Our lab never thought twice about the diversion. My golden did the switch. One correction and she got it. Now she avoids the new bird with a wide berth. She takes correction easily and literally. She is low use on the collar. 

Can't wait until after the first of the year to get back out to the trainers. We bundle up and train all winter unless stupid cold. Right now he is training the handler. I need all the help I can get. My dog is ready, I am not. 




Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Maxs Mom said:


> One of the last times I trained with my trainer we worked in this. The group was MH/FT dogs and handlers to beginners. It was fun to see the finished concept worked on then how to train on it too.


This is one of the initial questions; How did you “work on it”?


Maxs Mom said:


> My dog is preparing for *SH* we are running land blinds "ok". need more work with water. We are city folk who train when and where we can our trainer is a two hour drive away.


Ah, the value of having a solid program in your hands!


Maxs Mom said:


> What we did with my dog that day, was run the blinds first.


Cold blinds? Were there any special factors?


Maxs Mom said:


> They were planted in a familiar spot for all the dogs who run blinds.


So, they were repeat blinds of some sort?


Maxs Mom said:


> Then (again for my dog) threw a mark left to right mid field, I was told to send her on the left blind.


Was the mark thrown toward the line to the blind, or away from it? Just curious.


Maxs Mom said:


> So it wasn't really "poison" other than the fact she saw the mark, but was sent on the blind.


That sounds very much like a poison bird blind; just not a cold blind. Is that right?


Maxs Mom said:


> I thought 'no way she will do this'. She nailed it. The upper level dogs were sent to run past the "poison" bird, but my dog was not ready for that. Trainer cautioned over training this concept. He also made sure for us newer folk we set it up right for our level of dog. I hesitate to work too much complicated stuff for fear an issue will arise "I" can't work out of. I don't have anyone near me with more experience than myself.


Again, the advantage of having a solid program to help you understand the progression, and what to expect.


Maxs Mom said:


> We worked diversion marks with both our dogs this past summer. Meaning a second mark thrown while dog is returning with a mark.


This may become a very valuable discussion! That type of diversion mark is called a “Bulldog”, or “Bird-in-the-face”. But there are several other standard diversion mark concepts.


Maxs Mom said:


> Our lab never thought twice about the diversion. My golden did the switch. One correction and she got it. Now she avoids the new bird with a wide berth. She takes correction easily and literally. She is low use on the collar.


Yes, that sort of correction needs to be done judiciously because they can begin to simply avoid the Bulldog, and then not retrieve them when sent.


Maxs Mom said:


> Can't wait until after the first of the year to get back out to the trainers. We bundle up and train all winter unless stupid cold. Right now he is training the handler. I need all the help I can get. My dog is ready, I am not


By recognizing that I think it shows you have a chance to become a fine dog person. Too often newer trainers can’t wait to dive in…over the dog’s head!

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The "bulldog" or "bird-in-the-face" diversion must be a very common diversion in HRC, as we do a lot of those in training (my trainer runs HRC).


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Yes, that particular concept mark is present in every HRC test. So much so that you rarely see any results obtained from it, especially in Finished.

EvanG


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Most dogs are well schooled on the in your face bird. Many will sit upon presentation of the bird or in a lot of cases flare off of it.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Yep. They've kinda' used it up.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The one that still blows Tito's mind, although in all fairness he's only seen it a couple of times, is an in-your-face bird thrown while he's heading OUT toward a blind, rather than coming back IN with the bird.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

That is very tough on most dogs. What that actually is is an en route poison bird blind. As much suction as there would normally be on a standard poison bird blind, it's magnified exponentially when the dog is already running toward an unknown destination and a bird is launched in plain view. That takes real control. And it takes more control the way I train on them, which requires the handler not to blow a sit whistle until the bird's flight is complete & the bird hits the ground. Imagine how committed that dog is at that point! In the final stages of training, the PB is a shot flyer duck thrown converging with the line to the blind.

EvanG


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

-How do you train for them?
Pretty much the way that you have explained in your materials. Poison birds must be trained in a logical fashion, otherwise the dog will be confused as to what you are asking it to do. It's a step by step process. Once the dog indicates an understanding of the concept, it's important to let it get the mark after it has picked the blind ... unless he showed too much interest in the mark while running the blind.

-Why use them?
From a judging point of view, it's a test of control ... which is what a blind is about. From a participant's point of view, you must have this degree of control to win field trials. Although there are some judges that abhor poison bird blinds, they are in the minority. (Frankly, I believe that the reason some of the judges hate poison birds is because they have or have had a dog that couldn't be pulled off of one.)

-How frequently? in training, in tests/trials
In training: With my first truly competitive dog, for a time we trained on PB blinds about once a week, sometimes twice. During that time, our dogs were exceedingly proficient in running these blinds ... they understood that if they ignored the mark while running the blind, they would eventually get the mark. The dogs understood it so well that they would run an under-the-arc blind without a whistle ... that's a thing of beauty. When they get too cocky, you can run double blinds, then pick up the mark ... that is a real killer at first, especially if the second blind is in front of the gunner and tight to the mark. We only do that with advanced dogs.
In trials: In Opens and Ams, PB blinds show up about every other weekend in my FT circuit.

-What are the judges looking for? in tests/trials
Control. And, if they have the dogs eventually pick up the PB, it tests for memory, as well as courage to go into an area which was earlier off limits.

-How important a skill for a hunting dog?
Very ... they have to get the cripple that hit the water 120 yards away before picking up the dead bird lying in the decoys at 30 yards away.

-What constitutes a failure? in tests/trials
Of course, picking up the PB is a failure. Beyond that, it's up to the judges; however, a demonstration of lack of control (i.e., too many whistles/cast refusals to pull them off the bird) will send you home. Also, sending the dog on a line so far away from the PB that it is not inviting to the dog will be frowned upon (some would call this a failure to "challenge the blind," but I dislike cliches so pretend that I didn't say it).


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

What concept (PB Blinds) does your dog need most frequent maintenance on?

EvanG


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

EvanG said:


> What concept (PB Blinds) does your dog need most frequent maintenance on?
> 
> EvanG


Does the answer to this question depend on the dog?
Mine hasn't done any true poison blinds yet, but in class we did drills running past white bumpers to orange bumpers.

She seems to need maintenance on go where I tell you, keep going, and there is something there at the end. I guess if I had to nutshell it into one concept it would be do what I tell you, not what you think/want.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

boomers_dawn said:


> Does the answer to this question depend on the dog?


Sure it does. I'm glad you asked. You should take into consideration what training the dog has had previously, and what strengths and/or weakness you see in the dog's Basics. That, and how the dog has been transitioned into poison bird blinds.


boomers_dawn said:


> Mine hasn't done any true poison blinds yet, but in class we did drills running past white bumpers to orange bumpers.


That sounds like a fine way to begin. But there is what we call "standard order' pick up; pick up the mark, then the blind. That should be very sharp before attempting any poison bird blinds; the blind is planted, a bird is thrown, and the dog must retrieve the blind before retrieving the mark. All of this hinges on good Basics.


boomers_dawn said:


> She seems to need maintenance on go where I tell you, keep going, and there is something there at the end. I guess if I had to nutshell it into one concept it would be do what I tell you, not what you think/want.


How did you train to this point? Are you following a certain program?

EvanG


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

EvanG said:


> But there is what we call "standard order' pick up; pick up the mark, then the blind. That should be very sharp before attempting any poison bird blinds; the blind is planted, a bird is thrown, and the dog must retrieve the blind before retrieving the mark. All of this hinges on good Basics.How did you train to this point? Are you following a certain program?
> 
> EvanG


Thanks for taking the time to remind me Evan. I don't even need to be thinking about this now. 

My program is try to do what our trainer tells me. I think his program is based on a combination of tools that work for him, including Smartworks, and tailoring to the dog.

I actually have a copy of Smartworks I bought about 8 years ago when my first training group told me to get it. I didn't read the whole thing because it didn't make sense to me. Not to fault the book, just reading isn't my learning style. 

Our trainer keeps saying "it's not rocket science" but I disagree. Just like your obedience video says read the dog and adjust, I'm no good at reading the dog and don't get how they think. When we have problems, I never know what to do unless I've already had that problem and I learned from experience.

I pulled the book out last night, I think I'm up to Chaper 11 but I think going by the chart, he gave us some of the more advanced drills to do in class and homework, because we can't be doing swim-by now. 
It'll be ice fishing season in a couple weeks arty:


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

boomers_dawn said:


> Just like your obedience video says read the dog and adjust, I'm no good at reading the dog and don't get how they think. When we have problems, I never know what to do unless I've already had that problem and I learned from experience.


Don't be too hard on yourself. It will come in time. I was having a discussion on another board about the value of books and videos. My position is that it is the job of a good book or video to provide sound information, and to lay out a well reasoned progression. But no book, video, or even _mentor_ can infuse you with experience. _That_ comes with time in the field.

EvanG


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

We saw a lot of PB blinds in Master in Ontario last year, many in the context of a delayed triple mark--one weekend we had PB blinds in that context in the water test of both tests! I followed the system of teaching it that Evan describes, and in maintenance I have to be very careful not to overdo them. My girl loves to run blinds, so once I give her the cue to leave it to pull her off the mark, getting her to the blind is not an issue. I have more of an issue keeping the marking in balance with her, so when we do use a PB in training getting the marks is actually the point of the setup for us.


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