# Regional scoring ??



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I have absolutely made the same observation. 
I think maybe when you are in an area where there are several "repeat 200" club members, the judges score a bit harder. Otherwise, if they give other competitors real high scores, what's left for the almost perfect dogs?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Maybe it's the judges too? 

I mean, after a year of going back to trials and watching a lot of judging on the sidelines, I've seen some judges who are bigger sticklers about perfect heeling position (for example) than others.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I'm with Kate, I don't know that it's a regional thing so much as an individual judge thing. Some judges just don't score as tough as others, no matter where they are from. I know there are some judges I wouldn't want to say even if got a 200 from them because everyone knows they are "easy" judges (well, okay, I might mention it once or twice . Other judges I am thrilled any time I can pull a 198 or better from them because I know I definately earned every single half point of that score from them.

Your good judges are going to be frequently requested across the country for judging anyway, so they will have a pretty good overall view of what is out there, not just in their area.

If you ask the majority of the competitive B handlers, they will tell you that their least favorite kind of judge to show under, (not counting ones that are just plain rude), are the ones that are super easy with the scoring. One reason being you don't know if you truly earned that score or not, and the other being if the judge is letting little things go without scoring, then it is unlikely he or she will get the placements correct.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I agree with others that has more to do with the individual judges than regions. And if the judge is a top obedience handler they will likely be a tougher scorer than one who is not - not always but generally. There are judges in our area that are known to have a "very sharp pencil" and some that tend to use a "magic marker".


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Oh yes.. it is the judging not the region. I also know some judges are easier on the lower classes..I guess at this point in my obedience career I just want them to get the placements right the rest is just the rest. I also know while some judges are easier marks they most times won't let go of that 200 score. I know I was curious when I got my 200 how many that judge has given.. That was his 3rd in 30+ years of judging..


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

No obedience experience but my 2¢. It is purely subjective isn't it? I would see it in hunter classes all the time. The judge would expect good things from an elite few, and hold out until they showed. I also saw them hit hard someone for a minor mistake, because they expected perfection. That is not fair either. 

I understand there are 'guidelines' about what is proper, but isn't just the judges interpretation of those guidelines?


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## IndyDan (May 19, 2009)

Very difficult to do comparison due to the subjective of scoring … I would hope that a judge would not be slanted, biased, or prejudiced. 

I do think the system can be improved thru technology. I dislike the posting of results without an explanation. The handle has to ask the judge for the reason for deductions after the event.

It would be more transparent, if exercise scores were more detailed. My suggestion for improvement … after each dog the judge would input scores into a computer and post the results before the next dog.

I know the response … it has worked all these years so why change? Obedience needs to be more transparent, maybe like Agility.


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## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

I haven't started showing in Obedience yet but will be in the Spring (want to be ready through Utility before I show). However, based on AKC Rally Obedience I think it is the judge. I have found that judges who normally judge Obedience will judge "harder" than just Rally Obedience judges. What that means is that they judge Rally to the rules and expect you to perform the signs "correctly" and really watch for foot work and handling.

When we were doing Rally I actually preferred the "harder" judges. The scores sometimes were lower and sometimes not but at the end the Placements were accurate.
It made me feel better because easier judges would let teams get away with things that I would be amazed with and it cheapened the other scores etc.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I have the experience of one whole trial :

I was surprised how different our scores where from one day to the next. And by that I mean they were only 1.5 points different. I thought we did so so so much better the second day. I know we did better, it felt better and everyone who watched said so.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

sammydog said:


> I have the experience of one whole trial :
> 
> I was surprised how different our scores where from one day to the next. And by that I mean they were only 1.5 points different. I thought we did so so so much better the second day. I know we did better, it felt better and everyone who watched said so.


Which is why I am always preaching that you need to focus on how you felt about your run. You need to show because you love being your dog's partner in the ring. If you start focusing on scores you are going to loose the fun of it...

Sharon,
I too have seen some videos that surprised me with the scores..I have also sat ringside and been totally shocked at a particular person's score and wondered if they watched the same run we did from outside. I believe most judges are very fair and honest and do their very best. I want to believe that most are pretty fair but have also watched some of them discuss something and they all would have marked them different. The rules are open to some interpretations. But in their defense I have judged a fun match and when the rules state 1-3 point deduction ... who's to say who is right.... Okay off my soapbox..

Just remember to go have fun and enjoy your time in the ring!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

IndyDan said:


> I do think the system can be improved thru technology. I dislike the posting of results without an explanation. The handle has to ask the judge for the reason for deductions after the event.
> 
> 
> It would be more transparent, if exercise scores were more detailed. My suggestion for improvement … after each dog the judge would input scores into a computer and post the results before the next dog.


Two problems that I can see...

It would be awesome if the judge used a blackberry or something like that to jot down notes. Specifically since some judges are more on the ball than others as far as remembering why they specifically took a point off in heeling. I've had judges GUESS at what they took points off after a big class. 

The two problems that I can see right off:

*Some judges are more computer challenged than others, as are some clubs. 

*Can you imagine how long it would take the judge to get through utility and Open THEN?! :uhoh: It is a big deal for each trainer getting their scores, but if you are waiting behind 30+ dogs. Eeeks. 



> and really watch for foot work and handling


I'm not sure if or how you get judged on footwork (unless you are showing under my instructor and she's watching to see how you line up after those about turns.... If you show under her, be aware of your straight line heeling).

I do know that I had some rally judges that deducted points every single time that leash tightened up. Just the same in regular obedience. And then others might be watching the dog and seeing how he maintains heel position. So if the dog is just a tiny bit forged or wide or behind they are busy deducting points. 

I guess what I take out of that is just watch these judges or talk to people who have shown under them. Know what you have to clean up before trial time.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Titan1 said:


> Which is why I am always preaching that you need to focus on how you felt about your run. You need to show because you love being your dog's partner in the ring. If you start focusing on scores you are going to loose the fun of it...


Trust me, I don't care about the score. My focus is totally on how a feel! : I want both Mira and I to have fun in the ring, that has been and will always be my goal for anything we do!

I was just commented because of the thread topic. I found it surprising how different the two judges were.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Michelle - you are so right! It is about spending time with your dog.

I am sometimes a curious person and wonder - like right now I am wondering if entering Ms Towhee in Beginners Novice would be a positive or negative experience for her.........


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Sunrise said:


> Michelle - you are so right! It is about spending time with your dog.
> 
> I am sometimes a curious person and wonder - like right now I am wondering if entering Ms Towhee in Beginners Novice would be a positive or negative experience for her.........


I think Rally is where I would start her.. It is fun and you have a party all the way through. What a wonderful way to start.. Then yes I would ease her way into the rings with BN..I know she is beyond that in training but I bet she could sure use the boost of confidence.Just my two cents..


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

sammydog said:


> Trust me, I don't care about the score. My focus is totally on how a feel! : I want both Mira and I to have fun in the ring, that has been and will always be my goal for anything we do!
> 
> I was just commented because of the thread topic. I found it surprising how different the two judges were.


Jessica, I know you don't as we have talked alot about that. I still say that the thing I love most about your pictures is the smile on YOUR face..
you guys are a fun team!


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## IndyDan (May 19, 2009)

Using electronic devices would cause some problems in ring. I was thinking more about a check list for judges with point values established by AKC. Then review and transfer after the exercise. I have seen many different approaches to scoring in the ring. Some judges mark as you go, use a clicker or wait until the exercise is over. Dog should be judge to the standard.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Titan1 said:


> I think Rally is where I would start her.. It is fun and you have a party all the way through. What a wonderful way to start.. Then yes I would ease her way into the rings with BN..I know she is beyond that in training but I bet she could sure use the boost of confidence.Just my two cents..


Yes, she is well beyond that in training - but my little social butterfly will need careful easing into competition  She tends to believe all people need her attention - she is much better about dogs now. 

And hey, from you Michelle - it's way more than 2 cents - its at least an entry fee  Thanks


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

First of all I totally agree with Michelle. The ONLY person you are competing against in the ring is 'you'. Don't worry about anyone else or your dog for that matter. Do the best you can and the cards will fall where they fall. I believed that a LOT in the horse world (and now the agility). I didn't have the money to spend on a 4-5 figure horse, let alone 6 figure yet, if I did my job, I beat them hands down. I could win a class and be frustrated by "my" performance. It was how I tried to improve. In agility I am the same way. I just want to do my best. 

Indy Dan, agility can be subjective. Yes it is obvious when a bar drops but not always a contact being missed. Or even where a dog might spin on a course. There is subjectivity but less. I had a judge call a hesitation at a jump a refusal on a friend. Yes it was a loss of forward motion, but when the dog did not make another mistake, she corrected her call and took away the NQ. That is a judges decision. 

In one rally trial I ran the judge was clear, if you take up the slack on your leash you will be faulted. She wanted a loose leash. Another trial the judge said if your dog puts it's butt down first on the down command, he will consider it a sit and fault the dog. I thought that was a bit much for novice rally. Oh and Teddi sits first. Always has, rarely I can get her to straight down. I am working on it but with her hips what is easier on her? Oh well. I always thought rally is more on the handler than the dog. 

So now I have a question. When you guys say "I lost a point on my heel" for instance you literally go and ask the judge? You wait until the class is over and the judge remembers? I always wondered when I read these posts that say things like that.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> So now I have a question. When you guys say "I lost a point on my heel" for instance you literally go and ask the judge? You wait until the class is over and the judge remembers? I always wondered when I read these posts that say things like that.


After the class. And pray the judge has a good memory or took notes (as opposed to just writing the deductions # in the box). Most judges that I've seen will write the deduction (1/2 point for example) in the box and scribble something shorthand next to it. 

After you've shown, the judge is aware that the next person has warmed up and is waiting at the door, so you are expected to put your dog's leash on and clear the ring.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Maxs Mom said:


> So now I have a question. When you guys say "I lost a point on my heel" for instance you literally go and ask the judge? You wait until the class is over and the judge remembers? I always wondered when I read these posts that say things like that.



Some judges will mark their sheets throughout the exercises and be able to tell you why they deducted each 1/2 point. Even if the run was hours earlier. Others not so much.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Maxs Mom said:


> First of all I totally agree with Michelle. The ONLY person you are competing against in the ring is 'you'.
> 
> So now I have a question. When you guys say "I lost a point on my heel" for instance you literally go and ask the judge? You wait until the class is over and the judge remembers? I always wondered when I read these posts that say things like that.


Ann when the class is over the placements are given you can choose to go back and ask the judge for the breakdown. You are judged on each of the components. Most judges have marked their sheets and some even make notes so they can mentor if you come up to ask. If for instance you loose a point on heeling they can usually look at the sheet and tell you a forge and lag or whatever.I use that feedback to determine if I have to work on something or not. There is one judge I know before I walk in the ring I will get hit for every finish..I am okay with that and am not changing anything I do. I ask everytime for my breakdown..hey I paid for it.LOL! There are a couple judges that will not give you a verbal breakdown and explain where they took the points and for what.. Those you can get off the breakdown sheets they turn in at the Super's table.. I would rather trust a judge that is marking as they go along instead of a clicker..I feel I get better feedback with the one marking the sheet.
But most of all I am very respectful of every judge and don't every argue. I thank them for the feedback and move on.. If I don't agree with my score I just skip getting the score until it is posted. That way my mouth will not get ahead of my brain..LOL!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Maxs Mom said:


> So now I have a question. When you guys say "I lost a point on my heel" for instance you literally go and ask the judge? You wait until the class is over and the judge remembers? I always wondered when I read these posts that say things like that.


When the class is over and the awards have been presented, copies of the score sheets (I forget if the yellow or pink) will be posted. They have individual boxes for say:
Heel on Leash, Stand for Exam, Heel Free, Recall, Long Sit and Long Down. Each box should have the deductions for qualifying scores. 

There can also be bottom line deductions that will be noted.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Sunrise said:


> When the class is over and the awards have been presented, copies of the score sheets (I forget if the yellow or pink) will be posted. They have individual boxes for say:
> Heel on Leash, Stand for Exam, Heel Free, Recall, Long Sit and Long Down. Each box should have the deductions for qualifying scores.
> 
> There can also be bottom line deductions that will be noted.


Teeheee... Never thought I would ever find a use for this but ..LOL!
I am 423 and Audrey (my instructor) is 422..LOL!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@Titan - I can only dream of having a score like that. With Jacks and the three novice trials we flubbed out because of his stays, we would have gotten 198 (assuming he would not have lost points on stays had he stayed). But the 2 points we lost were for things that we habitually get marked for. Even in rally (darn dog keeps bumping me).

I know Ann's instructor has gotten 199's in trials that I've seen. And I thought that was the beesknees to watch.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Titan1 said:


> Teeheee... Never thought I would ever find a use for this but ..LOL!
> I am 423 and Audrey (my instructor) is 422..LOL!


A rare score break down and suitable for framing


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Sunrise said:


> A rare score break down and suitable for framing


I felt like such a geek for taking the picture but man oh man.. I had too..LOL and I finally get to use it besides making myself smile..all...day..long...ROFL!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Titan1 said:


> Teeheee... Never thought I would ever find a use for this but ..LOL!
> I am 423 and Audrey (my instructor) is 422..LOL!



I don't remember if I was 418 or 420. :scratchch


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

okay from this day forward I will be carrying a camera in my bag and if I EVER get a score sheet that looks like that I will not only take the picture and post it, it will also be my wallpaper and screensaver!


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

AmbikaGR said:


> I don't remember if I was 418 or 420. :scratchch


I am sure you were either 417 or 425..LOL! I like them scores better!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

By the way when I saw the title of this thread this morning I was all excited because I thought someone was going to compete at one of the Regionals!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> By the way when I saw the title of this thread this morning I was all excited because I thought someone was going to compete at one of the Regionals!


Nah - I just was very tired each night this past weekend, so rather than do stuff that needed to be done, I watched a lot of videos and saw some 'interesting' things.


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

I have noticed huge differences in the A vs the B(ecspecially the open ones) classes with how they score, and other than one judge I have shown under a few times most that I have shown under are pretty fair, and consistant.

I have had a certain judge take 1 point off for a almost perfect front, which is usually 1/2 point. The same judge took 3 points off for me supposidly giving a second command that nobody saw, they took a 3 or 5 point deduction on another person the same day for her suposedly not having control of her dog(between exercises I believe), when the dog wasn't even doing anything out of control! I don't think that judge likes goldens! LOL!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Stretchdrive said:


> I have noticed huge differences in the A vs the B(ecspecially the open ones) classes with how they score, and other than one judge I have shown under a few times most that I have shown under are pretty fair, and consistant.
> 
> I have had a certain judge take 1 point off for a almost perfect front, which is usually 1/2 point. The same judge took 3 points off for me supposidly giving a second command that nobody saw, they took a 3 or 5 point deduction on another person the same day for her suposedly not having control of her dog(between exercises I believe), when the dog wasn't even doing anything out of control! I don't think that judge likes goldens! LOL!


Hey there stranger! :wavey: Congrats on a great weekend with Filly!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I believe that if you walk in the ring like you know what you are doing, the judges mark harder....


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

1234567890


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Sally's Mom said:


> I believe that if you walk in the ring like you know what you are doing, the judges mark harder....


Oh, I hope not  I have been working really hard at my ring entrances LOL


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> Hey there stranger! :wavey: Congrats on a great weekend with Filly!


 
Thanks! We will probably be moving up to Open B for our next show, since I have now met my goals(Happy and confident Filly) for Novice with her. Right now I still have her entered in Novice B in Dec.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Stretchdrive said:


> I have noticed huge differences in the A vs the B(ecspecially the open ones) classes with how they score, and other than one judge I have shown under a few times most that I have shown under are pretty fair, and consistant.
> 
> I have had a certain judge take 1 point off for a almost perfect front, which is usually 1/2 point. The same judge took 3 points off for me supposidly giving a second command that nobody saw, they took a 3 or 5 point deduction on another person the same day for her suposedly not having control of her dog(between exercises I believe), when the dog wasn't even doing anything out of control! I don't think that judge likes goldens! LOL!


I had one judge who was supposed to love goldens, and yet he hit me 2-3 points for every sit with my King-numerous shows. He thought they were too slow! Then with Casey he hit me again and when I asked why, he said he was too fast and you're not supposed to hear a butt hit the ground like that - I don't show under him anymore LOL I think he might like goldens but not me :uhoh::uhoh:


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I just think that when you look like you know what you are doing, the judges seem more nit picky... I could be all wet... But there is one judge I will never show under again here in the Northeast for my belief in that reason!!!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Flip will be in open as soon as he decides not to whine on out of sight stays. Of course we've got that pesky last CD leg to get first :uhoh:


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Do you have him entered for that pesky leg?

Hey think good thoughts for me? I actually entered Ms Towhee in Rally Novice on Thanksgiving ... now this could be a blast or it could be filed under the interesting category


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> Flip will be in open as soon as he decides not to whine on out of sight stays. Of course we've got that pesky last CD leg to get first :uhoh:


Yes, is he entered for that last leg yet?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Sunrise said:


> Do you have him entered for that pesky leg?
> 
> Hey think good thoughts for me? I actually entered Ms Towhee in Rally Novice on Thanksgiving ... now this could be a blast or it could be filed under the interesting category


yep, he's actually entered very, very soon. :nervous: And I told him we better be coming home with that leg this time, just remember what happened last time :

Good luck with Towhee, you'll do great!


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Sunrise said:


> Do you have him entered for that pesky leg?
> 
> Hey think good thoughts for me? I actually entered Ms Towhee in Rally Novice on Thanksgiving ... now this could be a blast or it could be filed under the interesting category


Whohooo.. good for you guys.. now remember you CAN talk in Rally.. Go ahead and have party with that girly!
I love it!
Michelle


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I think Flip will have that last leg in no time!

I have been working on my entrances too, if I can walk in with good focus, YAY!!!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Titan1 said:


> Whohooo.. good for you guys.. now remember you CAN talk in Rally.. Go ahead and have party with that girly!
> I love it!
> Michelle


Thanks & Grins - I may enter her for more days, but Thanksgiving is usually fairly quiet. And I am sure I'll be talking to that girlie - this will be to help build her focus and drive in the ring.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Well crap - I realized at obedience tonight (while beginning the down signal), Ms Towhee hasn't been taught the down out of motion yet. Almost 3 weeks to train it LOL


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

The moving down? You don't need that in rally novice at least...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I thought it was in novice, the stop and down


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Sign #27 - The Stop and Down. 

_While moving with the dog in heel position, the
handler commands and/or signals the dog to down as the handler
comes to a stop next to the dog. Once the dog is completely down,
the handler moves forward, commanding the dog to move forward
from down position. (Stationary exercise)
_


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I thought you meant this one when you said moving... 




> Moving down–Walk around dog–​
> 
> While heeling and without pausing, the handler will down the dog and walk around the dog to the left, returning to heel position. The handler must pause in heel position after returning to the dog. The dog must move forward from the down position.


 
I was going to say it took me more than a few weeks to drill this one into Jacks' puny brain. In fact, I think there is a thread here on GRF with me babbling about teaching moving downs and moving stands to a dog who won't stop moving with me. ​ 

With the stop and down, you simply want to make sure your dog doesn't do an automatic sit when you stop - get your down command and hand signal out _fast_.​


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