# Was told that Bella is fat!



## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Well...those weren't the exact words, but apparently Bella has a little extra winter warmth. The woman who told me this has two Goldens who are very active in field training and obedience. When you peel back the fur near the spine on her dogs, you can literally see the ribs, and you don't have to press down at all to feel them.

I was a little surprised, but this woman has owned Goldens for a long time, so perhaps she's right. 

By the way, she didn't volunteer her opinion. I asked.

What do you all think? These were taken two weeks ago.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Bella looks perfect.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Bella is not fat. Maybe she just has more coat than field goldens. I know when Molly blew her coat and literally had no undercoat, I looked back at her photos pre-shed and she looked fat to me too.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think I would fall over in shock if a field/obedience person told me that my dogs are a perfect weight.  

I don't think she looks fat in those pictures.... if she carries extra weight, you are probably only talking tops 5 pounds. And again, that's weight she'll probably lose over the summer as you guys get a bit more active.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Bella is not fat. Maybe she just has more coat than field goldens. I know when Molly blew her coat and literally had no undercoat, I looked back at her photos pre-shed and she looked fat to me too.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Could be, but she actually put her hands on Bella. This woman has a lot of credibility. I didn't think she was overweight either.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

She looks good to me. IMO- Some field/obedience people keep their dog's too thin


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

I think Bella looks good. My recollection is that the ribs are not supposed to be visible at optimum weight. It's pretty common to carry a little more weight in the winter.

I had a field person tell me a year or so ago that Zoe had "a muffin top". I was a little insulted but took it with a grain of salt. She's in standard for height and weight and her vet thinks her weight is very good.


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## Zuca's mom (Aug 14, 2012)

Nope, she has that tucked in look in the back so I think she's perfect.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

I've seen a few field / obedience dogs and I agree with the above.... their dogs are kept too thin. If I turn my brush over and run it down my dogs side or back and I feel it moving from the bones... I don't like it. As long as your dog isn't morbidly obese or significantly overweight...then who cares what her opinion is.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

TheZ's said:


> I think Bella looks good. My recollection is that the ribs are not supposed to be visible at optimum weight. It's pretty common to carry a little more weight in the winter.
> 
> I had a field person tell me a year or so ago that Zoe had "a muffin top". I was a little insulted but took it with a grain of salt. She's in standard for height and weight and her vet thinks her weight is very good.


In this case, I wasn't insulted, because I wanted her honest assessment. She helps teach our Monday class, and has been very helpful to me with some things. She apparently just likes her dogs on the thin side. They do look healthy and happy.


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## robinrd (Oct 30, 2012)

I think your dog looks great, my dog must be overweight too  I guess I wouldn't want to feel ribs that easily.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

My Rose is also a little on the plump side. My understanding is that you should not have to press down to feel the ribs, they should be easily felt as you caress them.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I accidentally let Flip put on a couple more pounds this winter. I do like them very lean when they are young. A little extra in older age but still way less than your typical pet golden. While a little more filled out can be more pleasing to my eye, it's not healthier so I try to keep it down.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Loisiana said:


> I accidentally let Flip put on a couple more pounds this winter. I do like them very lean when they are young. A little extra in older age but still way less than your typical pet golden. While a little more filled out can be more pleasing to my eye, it's not healthier so I try to keep it down.


I'm not alarmed about it, but I have been a bit more conservative with the treats over the past few days. I'm going to monitor it closely for a while and see how it goes. This woman is no fool.


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

Nairb said:


> I'm not alarmed about it, but I have been a bit more conservative with the treats over the past few days. I'm going to monitor it closely for a while and see how it goes. This woman is no fool.


You've mentioned a few times that you value this woman's opinion and that she is a credible source. What are your concerns that are keeping you from accepting her input and acting on it? 

(Not meant to be facetious, truly asking.)


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

drofen said:


> You've mentioned a few times that you value this woman's opinion and that she is a credible source. What are your concerns that are keeping you from accepting her input and acting on it?
> 
> (Not meant to be facetious, truly asking.)


It's always good to get input from more than one source.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

She might be about to grow a bit, might be about to shed some extra coat, or could just be holding onto a few winter pounds. She looks good though! Lots of waist tuck. Don't get too worried about it...use it as an excuse to get her playing some more


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## JayBen (Aug 30, 2012)

She looks about the same as my girl. I don't think she's overweight at all. Its like a normal looking lean person asking a marathon runner if they think they're over weight. I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

My Faelan does field, agility & obedience. He can seriously run close to 4 miles in a day of training and swim close to a mile. His weight is a few pounds too light for my liking right now (62# at 23 inches) but yes, dogs running field and/or agility are much lighter than dogs not that active. 

So I would guess the lady who looked your girl over knows what a dog in truly good weight looks like - and it is far leaner than your average golden. Not only the amount of energy they expend but their safety and well-being while being so athletic (think of sprinters, long distance runners and road-bicyclists) depend on it.


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

JayBen said:


> She looks about the same as my girl. I don't think she's overweight at all. *Its like a normal looking lean person asking a mara*thon runner if they think they're over weight. I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.


I totally agree, her dogs may come from a line of very lean dogs. Genetics plays a part here as well. Bella looks fit and healthy to me.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I am 100% with Sunrise on this one. From the pictures, Bella does not have any obvious extra weight, and with that lovely coat, I could not tell you visually whether she's at an ideal weight or a bit over it. However, when it comes to an experienced person doing a hands-on exam, I'd totally listen.

Perhaps the word "fat" is just the wrong word. She's obviously not significantly obese, which is what "fat" implies to me. Is she, however, at exactly the optimum weight to maximize her longevity and minimize the risk of injury? Perhaps not. I see very few Goldens at the weight that the research tells us is optimum, and they truly do look thin next to the average pet Golden.

I'd listen to this person. If you see her again, ask her to help you learn how to do a really good hands-on exam of your own. Keeping our dogs at optimum weight is about the most straightforward, significant contribution we can make to their health and longevity.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Impossible to tell without putting your hands on the dog. 
When she trots, does her topline roll a little? That would be a clue.
People often guess that Tito weighs about 85 pounds (he weighs 67) unless they see him wet, or put their hands on him. With goldens so much of it is fur it's really hard to determine their body condition.
That said, the best thing you can do for her is keep her just a few pounds underweight. It's been proven that dogs kept lean live longer.
The other thing is that she may be out of condition, which makes her feel "flabbier" when you put your hands on her.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> I am 100% with Sunrise on this one. From the pictures, Bella does not have any obvious extra weight, and with that lovely coat, I could not tell you visually whether she's at an ideal weight or a bit over it. However, when it comes to an experienced person doing a hands-on exam, I'd totally listen.
> 
> Perhaps the word "fat" is just the wrong word. She's obviously not significantly obese, which is what "fat" implies to me. Is she, however, at exactly the optimum weight to maximize her longevity and minimize the risk of injury? Perhaps not. I see very few Goldens at the weight that the research tells us is optimum, and they truly do look thin next to the average pet Golden.
> 
> I'd listen to this person. If you see her again, ask her to help you learn how to do a really good hands-on exam of your own. Keeping our dogs at optimum weight is about the most straightforward, significant contribution we can make to their health and longevity.


Like I mentioned in the OP, She didn't use the word "fat." Just that she's carrying a few too many lbs.

I don't believe she's fat either, but after over a year of reading this forum, I thought I had an understanding of what an optimum weight was. Opinions may differ on this, but it appears as though I was off the mark a little. We're probably just talking a few lbs here. I was curious if others here agreed.

When I ran my last marathon 5 years ago, I was 20 lbs. lighter than I am today. Do I look fat? Probably not. Would I run a marathon at my current weight? Not a chance. My dog does far more running now than I do.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"When I ran my last marathon 5 years ago, I was 20 lbs. lighter than I am today. Do I look fat? Probably not. Would I run a marathon at my current weight? Not a chance. My dog does far more running now than I do."

I think what you have said above is really important. As an athlete those 20 pounds puts a ton of stress on all your body parts and can break your body down.

For dogs that are so much smaller than us to begin with the difference of 1, 2 or 5 pounds can make a big difference for them.

Helie is 25 inches at the withers. He looks fantastic at 72 pounds. He looks like I am starving him at 68 pounds. His perfect weight is 69 or 70 pounds as a very active dog. At 72 pounds I actually see a difference in his activity level. The pound or two can really make a difference. When training on agility equipment and jumps in obedience I want my dog to not have any extra weight on him as it puts lots of extra stress on his body.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

She looks fine from the photos though hands on is always best. I don't offer my opinion unless asked on a pet's weight. People seem to take it personally and equate it with their own body image. 

A neighbor has a severely obese dog- talking 35 lbs. She enjoys telling ppl the breeder "lied"- that he was to be 80 lbs and he weighs 120. Well, one of these days I am going to crack and say he needs to lose 30+ lbs and the breeder wouldn't be a liar anymore.  Ok, I am off on a tangent--- I just think weight and dogs is touchy. 


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## Chaya (Aug 18, 2012)

I wish there was such thing as BMI for dogs....I usually go by the rib-feel test, but when I'm in denial about my girl's weight it's very easy to brush off not feeling much rib as "she needs to blow her coat"


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Totally agree. Here at the pet hotel I never hesitate to tell people if their dog is overweight, even if it loses me a few customers. It's in the dog's best interest.
The ones that really get to me are the ones where for YEARS I tell the people that the dog is quite overweight. Then it never fails, they come one day and stand in the lobby and cry, the poor dog has such arthritis, he can hardly get up, they are going to have to put him down, etc. And I feel like yelling at them....what do you think I've been trying to tell you all these years???
Now I know thin dogs can get arthritis, too. But it's worse if they're overweight, especially grossly so like so many of the dogs I see.
I've told this story before. One time I brought my 3 guys to the vet, and my vet said, "my, what breed are those??". I just looked at him, "huh??". He said, "I thought you had Golden Retrievers. But I've never seen 3 goldens all at the correct weight before". 




CarolinaCasey said:


> .... People seem to take it personally and equate it with their own body image.
> 
> A neighbor has a severely obese dog- talking 35 lbs. She enjoys telling ppl the breeder "lied"- that he was to be 80 lbs and he weighs 120. Well, one of these days I am going to crack and say he needs to lose 30+ lbs and the breeder wouldn't be a liar anymore.  Ok, I am off on a tangent--- I just think weight and dogs is touchy.
> 
> ...


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Chaya said:


> I wish there was such thing as BMI for dogs....I usually go by the rib-feel test, but when I'm in denial about my girl's weight it's very easy to brush off not feeling much rib as "she needs to blow her coat"


I have recently been checking myself for such a thing on how to calculate a dogs' BMI - nope. 
I found online this thing in Japan that you touch the dog with and voilà it shows the BMI.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Perhaps a BMI range could be calculated by dividing the standard weight by standard height? I don't have time right now, but I'm going to look at that later 


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## newport (Aug 8, 2011)

I wish Lola was THAT FAT. Bella looks good to me!


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

BMI isn't a particularly good measure of optimum weight, even in humans. In fact at times it's terrible.

What BMI doesn't take into account is bone density, or the fact that lean muscle weighs much more than the same volume of fatty tissue.

I'll use myself as an example. 

I am 6'2", and I feel most comfortable in my own skin at 230 lbs. Running 16 miles a week, eating 1950 kCal/day, and weight training keeps me trim at that weight--I also work a job where 3 days a week I walk 10,000+ steps as measured by a pedometer. Previously at that weight I had a hydrostatic body fat composition study done, and I was 10% body fat--a decent number for an athlete. Those numbers _also_ put me at a 29.5 BMI which is "overweight" and 0.4 away from "obese".

One of the summers that I fought forest fires in CO for the USFS, I was on a remote incident for more than 3 weeks. I was humping a 30lb pack and a 24" bar chainsaw at >8500 ft elevation with inadequate calories. At my very lightest--and I looked positively ill, I was 195lbs. That put my BMI at 25, just across the line from "healthy" into "overweight". At that weight I found myself having issues with stamina, was prone to dehydration, and had trouble concentrating on what I was doing at times. 

To put me smack in the middle of the "healthy" range for BMI, I would have had to lose _another 20lbs from there!

_I have a very dense body composition (my wife loves to remind me that I'm dense). For example, I am not a very strong swimmer--because I literally don't float. I have to continually swim in place to tread water. It was very frustrating for me to see classmates effortlessly treading water while swimming, and I was doing everything I could to keep from going under. Also, climbing ropes, or body weight exercises are more difficult for me. 

Of course it also gained me a healthy reputation of fear when I played football... 

I tend to think that putting hands on an animal is the most accurate assessment when done by somebody knowledgeable and with experience. I would liken that hands-on assessment to a skin fold test with calipers--which can be a very accurate assessment of body composition if done correctly.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

I've avoided responding before, but it's just too hard. 

She should avoid horizontal stripes and wear clothes that flatter the fuller figure. :bowl:

Sorry.


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## Jingers mom (Feb 10, 2012)

Bella looks perfect to me.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Never mind. My comment was half baked. LOL


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

Never mind. 

I need a break from this place.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Love to know who's opinion you are valuing that much...


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Titan1 said:


> Love to know who's opinion you are valuing that much...


I feel awful, but I don't remember her name. 

She's about 55-60. Taller and thin with short brown hair. One of her Goldens has an MH, and she trains (and maybe teaches?) in the open and utility classes that follow my Monday night novice class.

She comes in and helps with recalls in class so we can get two lines going for more reps.

Maybe you know her.

Edit: Not sure what's up with all of the duplicate posts. I even had a hard time deleting them.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> Impossible to tell without putting your hands on the dog.
> When she trots, does her topline roll a little? That would be a clue.
> People often guess that Tito weighs about 85 pounds (he weighs 67) unless they see him wet, or put their hands on him. With goldens so much of it is fur it's really hard to determine their body condition.
> That said, the best thing you can do for her is keep her just a few pounds underweight. It's been proven that dogs kept lean live longer.
> The other thing is that she may be out of condition, which makes her feel "flabbier" when you put your hands on her.


What does it look like when the top line rolls? Like a human tummy with excess fat?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> Impossible to tell without putting your hands on the dog.
> When she trots, does her topline roll a little? That would be a clue.
> People often guess that Tito weighs about 85 pounds (he weighs 67) unless they see him wet, or put their hands on him. With goldens so much of it is fur it's really hard to determine their body condition.
> That said, the best thing you can do for her is keep her just a few pounds underweight. It's been proven that dogs kept lean live longer.
> The other thing is that she may be out of condition, which makes her feel "flabbier" when you put your hands on her.



I just have to share something funny....

Um, whenever I give Jacks a bath - he generally looks like he's gained at least 5 pounds because his coat will be fluffed out and wavy. After it straightens and sleaks up like normal he loses those optical illusion 5 pounds. 

I make an effort not to bathe him on the same day we go to class, because inevitably my instructors will get that gleam in their eyes and come marching my way with a hand reached out to pinch flab and their mouths already dropping open to give me the "jumping dogs must be kept trim" lecture.  

Jacks looks his best between 76 and 78 pounds. If he goes above, then he starts getting that stout side look. If he goes below, then he starts to look like skull face and his ribs are more prominent. As I recall, ribs should be felt, not seen. Right now while he's 77 pounds (weigh in last week), you can see his "Trick rib" (the last one of the rib cage) poking out on both sides. 

So I guess what I'm saying, people may tell me he needs to lose weight, but if I'm seeing ribs - I'm ignoring them.


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

Test Post.........


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The skin over their topline seems to roll a little bit from side to side. Almost all young puppies have some roll, but an adolescent or older dog should not. It can indicate extra weight or lack of conditioning.



Vhuynh2 said:


> What does it look like when the top line rolls? Like a human tummy with excess fat?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Out on a walk right now. Took this short vid. Kind of hard to do with a four foot leash, but we're close to a highway. 

Definitely some top line roll there. Until now, I figured that was just skin!

http://youtu.be/6Dsd4--IIiE


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

it's sort of hard to tell in the video, but it does look like she's rolling. Or else the camera is moving around while you're trying to take the video


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

hotel4dogs said:


> it's sort of hard to tell in the video, but it does look like she's rolling. Or else the camera is moving around while you're trying to take the video


Please forgive my ignorance, I'm still new... So when viewed from above, the topline would essentially be a line running along the spine? And topline roll would be that line shifting back and forth, left and right across the spine as the dog gaits?

Am I understanding that correctly?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, you are. But "roll" is typically viewed from the side, not the top (unless one is on a 4 foot leash trying to take a video!). The topline is the line from the withers to the tail. On a golden it should be straight. 
When they are in motion, and you are looking from the side, a dog who is "rolling" will appear to have the skin right next to the spine bone rolling back and forth over the spine, which you can sort of see in Bella's video.
In the photos you can see the imaginary line from the withers to the tail is straight without any "dips", the rear is not higher than the front, even though he is not correctly standing in either photo.


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## DieselDog (Oct 16, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Bella is not fat. Maybe she just has more coat than field goldens. I know when Molly blew her coat and literally had no undercoat, I looked back at her photos pre-shed and she looked fat to me too.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I've had this same experience with diesel. I had him groomed recently and since I've been told he looks 10 lbs thinner but his weight has been the same for the last 3 months. I don't think she looked overweight at all


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

hotel4dogs said:


> Yes, you are. But "roll" is typically viewed from the side, not the top (unless one is on a 4 foot leash trying to take a video!). The topline is the line from the withers to the tail. On a golden it should be straight.
> When they are in motion, and you are looking from the side, a dog who is "rolling" will appear to have the skin right next to the spine bone rolling back and forth over the spine, which you can sort of see in Bella's video.
> In the photos you can see the imaginary line from the withers to the tail is straight without any "dips", the rear is not higher than the front, even though he is not correctly standing in either photo.


Excellent. Thank you.

And as alluded to in a previous post, could that be a result of conditioning (or lack thereof) as well extra weight?

(Not referring to Bella specifically)


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Barb - Tito looks so soft and teddybear like in that second pic<: 

@Nairb - I saw a slight roll, but I couldn't tell if she was trotting with you or not. If she was pacing, that will cause the same roll. It's why I'm trying to get Bertie trotting every time we heel (and my instructor is helping get after me when she sees him slipping into a pace).


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

ok, here's a dog with a lousy topline (of course, he was pretty old in the photo but he always had a lousy topline, among other issues). Note the swayback, and the high hips.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Absolutely can be, and often is, a result of lack of conditioning.

"Primarily a hunting dog, he should be shown in hard working condition..."



drofen said:


> Excellent. Thank you.
> 
> And as alluded to in a previous post, could that be a result of conditioning (or lack thereof) as well extra weight?
> 
> (Not referring to Bella specifically)


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

He is a big teddy bear 

I had the same thought about pacing, but if you look at her legs, she's definitely trotting.



Megora said:


> Barb - Tito looks so soft and teddybear like in that second pic<:
> 
> @Nairb - I saw a slight roll, but I couldn't tell if she was trotting with you or not. If she was pacing, that will cause the same roll. It's why I'm trying to get Bertie trotting every time we heel (and my instructor is helping get after me when she sees him slipping into a pace).


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

I have watched the video several times, looked again at the photos and compared everything to the Purina weight chart. I think Bella looks excellent and very fit. She is a beautiful girl. 

Keep in mind that at a little over a year old, she will continue to fill out and add some muscle, as she finishes growing. I would suggest you take what that person said with a bit of skepticism. You have a great dog.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> it's sort of hard to tell in the video, but it does look like she's rolling. Or else the camera is moving around while you're trying to take the video


Now that I've had a chance to get a better look on my laptop....Yes, the camera was moving around. Not to mention the weird angles. If I were going to pick an angle that does make her look overweight, that would be it.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> He is a big teddy bear
> 
> I had the same thought about pacing, but if you look at her legs, she's definitely trotting.


It wasn't a fast trot, but it was definitely a trot.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Barb,

Are conformation dogs generally shown with a little extra winter warmth, or are they typically kept very trim like the dogs I described in my OP? I seemed to remember many of the Westminster dogs looking a little thick. Some said that was just grooming, but I couldn't tell.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I think they are generally shown a *little* heavier, although not a lot. Just 2-3 pounds so that their ribs and hips aren't quite as prominent. But I do think most of it is just coat.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Very informative thread. Loving it. 

I thought Max was fine, but after reading this I can see that there is a roll. I'd been putting my hands on him and judging by his ribs, tuck up and waist, but after this thread I think he can stand to lose about three pounds or so.

I don't like to feel a dog's spine, though. Ribs are fine, but unless he's a Saluki I don't like to be able to count the spine or feel the hips bones.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

I am so confused about dog body weight now. What does it mean if you can very, very easily feel the spine and hip bones, but it takes quite a bit of pressure to feel the ribs? Iorek has a very nice tummy tuck (sometimes his coat obscures this, I'm always shocked at how thin he looks when he is wet), I can always feel his spine and hip bones, but I can never feel his ribs without some pressure. Does his poofy husky coat influence that? Should I not go by the ribs so much? If he gets to a low enough weight that you can feel his ribs without some decent pressure, you can visibly see his spine and hip bones and his face gets almost sickly thin. Curse you, confusing doggy weight!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> I think they are generally shown a *little* heavier, although not a lot. Just 2-3 pounds so that their ribs and hips aren't quite as prominent. But I do think most of it is just coat.


A lot of it is coat. Bug is carrying about 3 extra pounds or so, and I can tell in the ring, as it affects her topline and movement.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

I'm getting a little confused too. Could a few extra lbs. (say 3-5 lbs.) affect the topline when viewed from the side, or does it only cause the rolling of the topline previously discussed. And on Zoe, even though her spine is not visible, the little bumps in the spine are more apparent to the touch than the ribs.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The thing that I think most people find confusing is WHERE to feel the ribs. It's not over the sides, which is where most people attempt to feel them. Dogs don't get fat over the rib sides until they're pretty well overweight.
Place your fingers on the dog's spine, then move them about 1-1/2 inches down their sides off the spine. THAT's where you feel the rib bones. (also where the topline will roll, btw!). 
Lay your hand flat on the table, palm side down. Gently run one finger over the back of your hand, just below the fingers. You should easily feel every bone, but they don't stick out. THAT's what your dog's ribs should feel like, about 1-1/2 inches off their spine.
Make a fist. Now run your finger over the same spot. If your dog feels like that, he's underweight.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

Time to go bug my dog...


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Just went for our first hike in the woods this year. Weather sucked too much until now, and the trails were all muddy. We'll try to do at least 2-3 of these a week in addition to the running around she does in our park. Hopefully that will take care of that rolling topline!

We walked two miles, Bella probably did three....


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

hotel4dogs said:


> The thing that I think most people find confusing is WHERE to feel the ribs. It's not over the sides, which is where most people attempt to feel them. Dogs don't get fat over the rib sides until they're pretty well overweight.
> Place your fingers on the dog's spine, then move them about 1-1/2 inches down their sides off the spine. THAT's where you feel the rib bones. (also where the topline will roll, btw!).
> Lay your hand flat on the table, palm side down. Gently run one finger over the back of your hand, just below the fingers. You should easily feel every bone, but they don't stick out. THAT's what your dog's ribs should feel like, about 1-1/2 inches off their spine.
> Make a fist. Now run your finger over the same spot. If your dog feels like that, he's underweight.


 So essentially just lateral of the para spinal musculature, correct?


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Is it ideal to see ribs when the dog is moving but not while stationary?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

yes, exactly!



drofen said:


> So essentially just lateral of the para spinal musculature, correct?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Totally correct. But hard to see on goldens, unless they're pretty wet!




Vhuynh2 said:


> Is it ideal to see ribs when the dog is moving but not while stationary?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

sorry, duplicate post, my finger must have stuttered. 



Vhuynh2 said:


> Is it ideal to see ribs when the dog is moving but not while stationary?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Here's the plan....

Earlier this week, I switched her from ProPlan Performance 30/20 to ProPlan SSS. Fewer calories. So far, she has made the transition just fine, and she seems to like it better (not that she didn't like the 30/20). 

Previously, I was giving her 3/4 to 1 cup twice per day, depending on how many training treats she had eaten. Now it's 3/4 cup regardless. When she has reached her ideal weight, I'll consider increasing her meal portions to 1 full cup.

We're not going to eliminate training treats, but I will be a little more selective as to how many she gets, and when she gets them.

Longer walks.

More outdoor games in the park that encourage her to run.

At least 2-3 hikes in the woods per week. Ideally, it would be more, but limited time is a factor. We're fortunate to have many great trails nearby, but we need to drive to get to them.

I had started much of this prior to posting the topic. I'll update with our progress and post a new video when we finally get rid of that topline roll.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Hmmm, you probably don't want to know that all 4 of my dogs got mashed potatoes in addition to the meat mix to try to get a few pounds on them ?

Actually I have a reason for posting this; once Bella is more active you need to also keep an eye out for when she might need to gain some weight.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Sunrise said:


> Hmmm, you probably don't want to know that all 4 of my dogs got mashed potatoes in addition to the meat mix to try to get a few pounds on them ?
> 
> Actually I have a reason for posting this; once Bella is more active you need to also keep an eye out for when she might need to gain some weight.


Of course. I agree, and will continue to monitor things as time goes on. 


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I constantly adjust my dogs' food up or down, depending on the season and their activity level. During active field training I have to increase Tito's by about 25%.


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## spockles (Mar 23, 2013)

She looks good to me!..but what do I know. ;-) Do you bring Bella to Tails Up?


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

spockles said:


> She looks good to me!..but what do I know. ;-) Do you bring Bella to Tails Up?


We've been training at Tails Up since she was 12 weeks old. You?


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

3.5 mile hike tonight on a wooded trail around a lake! She jumped in a few times, but no swimming. It was pretty shallow. She loved it. Goldens were clearly meant for hiking.


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## spockles (Mar 23, 2013)

Nairb said:


> We've been training at Tails Up since she was 12 weeks old. You?


We're training at Cloud Nine. We actually just started this past week in Obedience 1. We had done a puppy training at canine coach but didn't like how it was ran. Signed up for puppy play time at cloud nine during our course of puppy training and loved the trainers and owner at cloud nine so we decided to do obedience there.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I was a little alarmed when I weighed Bella (holding her on my bathroom scale) earlier today. _66 lbs_. I weighed her a few weeks ago, and If I recall she was 62-63 lbs. Bear in mind, my bathroom scale has been inaccurate in the past when compared to the vet's scale, so I usually figure in a margin of error of 2-3 lbs. Either way, I think we're looking at an extra 3-5 lbs here. I was watching a few videos I took two months ago, and she's definitely porked up. For now, I'm blaming the higher calorie Pro Plan Performance 30/20, too many training treats, and shorter walks due to all of the icy side walks and bike paths we had until recently.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Nairb said:


> I was a little alarmed when I weighed Bella (holding her on my bathroom scale) earlier today. _66 lbs_. I weighed her a few weeks ago, and If I recall she was 62-63 lbs. Bear in mind, my bathroom scale has been inaccurate in the past when compared to the vet's scale, so I usually figure in a margin of error of 2-3 lbs. Either way, I think we're looking at an extra 3-5 lbs here. I was watching a few videos I took two months ago, and she's definitely porked up. For now, I'm blaming the higher calorie Pro Plan Performance 30/20, too many training treats, and shorter walks due to all of the icy side walks and bike paths we had until recently.


After reading this thread I am also putting Molly on a diet. The thing is, she was 52 lbs at the vet on Saturday and had already lost 2 lbs since receiving her booster shots 18 days prior. Hard to imagine her ideal weight would be under 50 when her height is within standard. She's not exactly "finer boned" either. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> After reading this thread I am also putting Molly on a diet. The thing is, she was 52 lbs at the vet on Saturday and had already lost 2 lbs since receiving her booster shots 18 days prior. Hard to imagine her ideal weight would be under 50 when her height is within standard. She's not exactly "finer boned" either.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yeah, when I look at pictures of Molly, she doesn't look that much smaller than Bella. If I recall, Bella is a bit taller (22.5"), but I'm surprised that extra inch or so accounts for 14 lbs. Bella isn't fine boned either. Her paws are enormous compared to most females I've seen. 

I probably wouldn't worry about what the scale says if you think Molly be healthier at a lighter weight.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Body condition is much more important than weight.
Last year when Tito was off for over 8 weeks due to the (benign) growth on his vocal cords, and then the very hot weather, he lost weight, but he was out of shape and felt flabby. When he started training again he gained 3 pounds, but it was obviously 3 pounds of muscle as he looked and felt (to my hands) much better.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> Body condition is much more important than weight.
> Last year when Tito was off for over 8 weeks due to the (benign) growth on his vocal cords, and then the very hot weather, he lost weight, but he was out of shape and felt flabby. When he started training again he gained 3 pounds, but it was obviously 3 pounds of muscle as he looked and felt (to my hands) much better.


And.... I think the hardest thing as far as "weight" is concerned is knowing WHAT you are looking at when you are looking at it.  

With Bertie, I'm less concerned about his weight than his tone. I think you said it already about the roll when they trot... it could be fat or flab. With him being a boy, I know that he's probably done growing upwards, but he will definitely broaden. I'm tickled peachy that his head is finally starting to grow and look like a boy's head! And his shoulders and chest are definitely starting to fill in now. About the only thing that bothers me is the loose skin around his shoulders and hips, but I think that if I up the amount of activity this summer, that will tighten up with muscle growth. I saw the same thing with Jacks who was on a very careful exercise schedule at the same age. 

@Nairb - I still have Bertie on the performance kibble on the theory it will help his coat and muscle growth (and I like the smell of the food), but I feed 1/2 regular adult kibble to keep him from blimping out. : If you aren't crazy about the sensitive skin kibble, there is a 26/16 performance formula.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Megora said:


> And.... I think the hardest thing as far as "weight" is concerned is knowing WHAT you are looking at when you are looking at it.
> 
> With Bertie, I'm less concerned about his weight than his tone. I think you said it already about the roll when they trot... it could be fat or flab. With him being a boy, I know that he's probably done growing upwards, but he will definitely broaden. I'm tickled peachy that his head is finally starting to grow and look like a boy's head! And his shoulders and chest are definitely starting to fill in now. About the only thing that bothers me is the loose skin around his shoulders and hips, but I think that if I up the amount of activity this summer, that will tighten up with muscle growth. I saw the same thing with Jacks who was on a very careful exercise schedule at the same age.
> 
> @Nairb - I still have Bertie on the performance kibble on the theory it will help his coat and muscle growth (and I like the smell of the food), but I feed 1/2 regular adult kibble to keep him from blimping out. : If you aren't crazy about the sensitive skin kibble, there is a 26/16 performance formula.


I bought a 33 lb bag of SSS yesterday,so that's what it will be for a while. She really likes it, and don't see any issues after about a week. At first, her poops were a little larger than they were with the Performance blend, but have gotten smaller by the day since the switch. In addition, she seems to have a lot easier time getting the BM started. 


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

We spent some time over the weekend at our favorite conservation land/ off leash dog area and was unhappy to see what seemed like major topline rolling going on as Zoe trotted off. Probably wouldn't have noticed it if I hadn't been reading this thread. In her case I'm afraid it's a need for more conditioning in addition to needing to shed a couple winter lbs.


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## Jessie'sGirl (Aug 30, 2010)

A few months ago I thought Jess was a bit heavy at 70.8 lbs, so I reduced his food and we started really long hikes twice a week. Last weight check he was 66.8 lbs, so now I am watching his weight to make sure he doesn't get too thin. One thing I have really noticed with his weight loss is how fit he seems. Running, jumping faster and with more precision.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> Body condition is much more important than weight.
> Last year when Tito was off for over 8 weeks due to the (benign) growth on his vocal cords, and then the very hot weather, he lost weight, but he was out of shape and felt flabby. When he started training again he gained 3 pounds, but it was obviously 3 pounds of muscle as he looked and felt (to my hands) much better.


How can you tell if a dog is flabby? Molly gets a ton of hard exercise daily...swimming and running/romping. I highly doubt she needs even more.

I admit I had probably been feeding her too many training treats so I have decreased those, but if I increase her exercise she'd never be awake at home. 


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> How can you tell if a dog is flabby? Molly gets a ton of hard exercise daily...swimming and running/romping. I highly doubt she needs even more.
> 
> I admit I had probably been feeding her too many training treats so I have decreased those, but if I increase her exercise she'd never be awake at home. http://www.petguide.com/mobile


If she gets that much exercise and she's in standard for height and weighs 52 lbs. (less than standard) why would you think she needs to shed weight?


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

TheZ's said:


> If she gets that much exercise and she's in standard for height and weighs 52 lbs. (less than standard) why would you think she needs to shed weight?


Her topline rolls. I thought it was loose skin, but this thread leads me to believe it's excess fat. 


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

When you are looking at the topline for rolling, watch the topline while your dog is trotting not pacing.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

same way you can tell if a person is flabby, lol. It feels flabby, not muscular!
Also, don't get caught up in a *little* topline roll, which could in fact be loose skin. It's impossible to describe online, but once you're seen an "out of condition" roll, you will recognize it right away.
Tito was a rockin' and rollin' last summer, LOL.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Had to bring Bella in for a UTI. Vet also has her at 66 lbs, and agrees that we're looking at 3-4 extra lbs after looking her over. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

65 lbs according to my bathroom scale just now. Down a pound since last Friday. Judging by how her ribs feel, it seems like more than that. Last night, the woman I originally talked to about this two weeks ago checked her over, and noticed a big difference. I think a lot of it is toning up from the increased exercise. I suspect we're only a pound or two away at this point.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Down to 64 lbs, and looking much more fit. Still not quite there, but very close. 


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Way to go!
It's surprising, isn't it, how once you get where you need to be, you realize you weren't there before even though you thought you were. 
If that made any sense.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

She looks pretty good to me,
Maybe Afew extra lbs of winter warmt


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> Way to go!
> It's surprising, isn't it, how once you get where you need to be, you realize you weren't there before even though you thought you were.
> If that made any sense.


I'm shocked at how much of a difference a couple pounds makes. It really helps that I have those two Goldens to compare to, and I see them every Monday night. I know some people don't think the ribs should be felt that easily, but they look very healthy and fit. It's difficult to get a proper perspective without actually getting your hands on a dog who is at the proper weight.


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## Altairss (Sep 7, 2012)

Yay good for you guys! I love a fit dog, I am working on getting my three down another 2-3 pounds each while still keeping them working hard and hiking. My MIL always pitches a fit saying they need more weight but my vet loves them at this weight I actually get thanked for having a trim golden when I go. Now to figure out how to trim down the cat. Hmmmm


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## Loukia (Sep 20, 2014)

So I've read through this whole discussion and it's such a reminder of how helpful it is to have this forum! I've been wondering for weeks why it looks like Comet carries a twisting barrel around his body (under his skin/fur). He definitely has a top roll. When he trots and runs it's much less noticeable, perhaps not at all (I'll have to pay closer attention now). 

I've watched several videos on pacing and that doesn't seem to be his problem. I read another posting where someone was mentioning top roll and they discussed "crabbing". I can't find any examples of what this looks like online, so I don't know if that applies here or not, but it doesn't really sound like that's what I'm dealing with.

Comet's top line seems pretty straight, but he's also 8 months old, so perhaps he's going through a gawky period? 

My question is... if Comet has an obvious top roll when walking, it seems to reduce or disappear when he's trotting, and he is not pacing, does this mean he's overweight? 

After reading this post, I'm going to feel his ribs (correctly) tomorrow. Right now he's in his crate for the night. Prior to reading this post, I would have said he definitely isn't overweight because I can feel his ribs (in the wrong spot, apparently - thank you for the correct info) and he has a nice waist. That said, given our freezing rain, continuous negative temps, etc., his exercise routine is definitely down compared to where we were a month ago. That considered, I've always noticed this top roll and figured it was a puppy thing. I know weight doesn't really matter, but he's 50 lbs, on the small side and he's 8 months old.

I'm just looking for guidance to see if I need to cut back on his food, if I'm dealing with extra puppy skin, if I'm dealing with a dog who needs more exercise or if this is a structural issue. I know it's hard to know without video, but I'm really not sure how to attach one here. Any guidance would be sincerely appreciated.


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## Loukia (Sep 20, 2014)

Hoping someone can weigh in on this...


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## NewfieMom (Sep 8, 2013)

I almost fell off my computer chair when I saw Bella's picture, but I dutifully read all the comments before writing mine. (Therefore I refrained from starting off this posting with, "She's insane!".) Many of the posters who commented so thoughtfully are among those I very much respect on this forum. I must conclude that some field experts could actually see and feel Bella and think she might be carrying extra weight due to the season or her coat. This is very, very hard for me to swallow. But I do believe in continuing to learn. Thank you for the opportunity. I think Bella is simply gorgeous.

NewfieMom


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## Jingers mom (Feb 10, 2012)

I don't think she is. I think she's a beauty


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

NewfieMom said:


> I almost fell off my computer chair when I saw Bella's picture, but I dutifully read all the comments before writing mine. (Therefore I refrained from starting off this posting with, "She's insane!".) Many of the posters who commented so thoughtfully are among those I very much respect on this forum. I must conclude that some field experts could actually see and feel Bella and think she might be carrying extra weight due to the season or her coat. This is very, very hard for me to swallow. But I do believe in continuing to learn. Thank you for the opportunity. I think Bella is simply gorgeous.
> 
> NewfieMom



I must agree. She's gorgeous. 

And looks fit. 

I don't think "hard working condition" means bones protruding. 

I am not an expert but my opinion, since folks are weighing in, pun intended, is that when taking good things to extremes they stop being good. I cringe if I pet a dog and I can feel his ribs and spine by placing my hands on him, unless he is a racing or desert hunting hound. 

When I met Emma's mom three weeks ago she felt perfect, even coming off of puppies. It's how I like dogs to feel. I could feel ribs but they weren't poking out. Her spine wasn't poking out. So I came home and felt Max and yah he's got a thin layer over his ribs so he could stand to lose, and he will, when winter ends. But God I don't want to lay my hands on him and be able to count ribs!!!!

Not a breeder or a show person or a field person, but I don't think the definition of hard working condition on a flesh and blood dog is to count ribs and feel spine bones. 

This girl is gorgeous and looks fit. I would keep her as in the picture. She's perfect for me and for what I read as hard working condition, in my amateur understanding of the phrase.


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