# If you're new to breeders, learn from me...



## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks for sharing! Even bad breeders are "nice", so you have to do all the legwork for sure.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

GBKakis, I read your blog and it is nicely done. Your puppies are beautiful. When I speak to potential puppy buyers, I always tell them to check the OFA website for verification and to not trust any one, including me! Unfortunately, you can still get elbow dysplasia issues even with clear parents and clear relatives. And the liver shunt is also thought to have a heritable basis as you see it in certain breeds(especially yorkies) but not others. But it is hard to figure out how it is inherited. The Bernese Mountain Dog Club is working on the genetics of liver shunts in their breed. You have certainly not had a positive experience, and I wish you good luck. We will all keep our fingers crossed for Max. As a veterinarian, I have seen some excellent results with arthroscopic surgery for elbows.


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## JavagirlWisc (Dec 31, 2010)

*So sorry*

So sorry about Apollo and Max. We are in the Wausau, WI area and are just starting to research breeders. South Branch was one breeder I had contacted but haven't heard back from yet. Do you feel from your experience with Apollo that they should be avoided or is the liver shunt something that they couldn't predict/shouldn't be discounted for?

The experience with Wisteria is horrible. What good are clearances if people think they know better?! I would think their is some sort of official appeal process if they, and multiple vets, disagree with the finding. And in this case the finding was clearly correct. Hopefully Max will come through it healthy and happy.


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## JavagirlWisc (Dec 31, 2010)

*Litters from Aspen*

Wisteria has two litters from Aspen now available with, big surprise, no warning about the elbow problem!


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I wouldnt touch South Branch for several reasons..
Please remember NO ONE forces a breeder to have a webpage - the information (words and pictures) that they choose to publish is of their choosing.

No registered names on the webpage so you cant do any research on the dogs..
Did a quick search of "South Branch" on k9data and OFA....no mention on k9data...kennel prefix was in OFA but no goldens.

They don't do anything with their dogs other then breed...they claim that their dogs are "show quality" yet they don't invest their time energy and money in showing to prove it.
No mention of agility, obedience or working titles
I dont even see any CGC certificates...

Buying stud dogs from other countries because they feel it is "their responsibility to keep the gene pool clean" - <good grief> 

"Our Goldens are bred to be consistent with the Golden Retriever breed standard"
How would you know if your breeding are meeting the standard if they are only being judged with your eyes...? A CCA evaluation costs about $70 to earn...get your dogs in front of 3 judges and then you might have some credibility.

The pictures alone that they have chosen to represent their "Handsome Scottish-American Stud, Otto" is one of the worst 'stacked' pictures Ive seen in a very long time.
What it tells me is that they have no idea of what a _very basic_ stacked picture should look like...which tells me that they have no idea what basic conformation is...They dog is poorly groomed which tells me that they have no clue either how to groom or they dont care to know.

Just my very inexperienced opinion of course...


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

This makes me so sad. I'm sorry that you and yours went through this. I think these terrible breeders, "greeders," prey on suspecting people. So sorry!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm so sorry to hear all of this. You've found yourself in a circle of breeders who do not adhere to the GRCA's code of ethics (White Dove, who has produced many of the dogs Wisteria uses, has been discussed extensively on the forum).

Many of us on the forum have learned that "English Creme" is usually a red flag for a breeder that breeds for the popular color without breeding for much more important qualities like health, longevity, temperament, and intelligence. There's so much bad information out there that it's hard to sort through it and find the GRCA's recommendations and the other, more nuanced pieces of the puzzle.

There are a ton of people on the forum who have gotten their dogs through elbow dysplasia, mild to severe. They can give you tons of advice on supplements (starting on glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM right now can't hurt and may help), surgical options, limiting exercise, etc.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

It's so sad these 'breeders' take advantage of people, they don't care about anything but the money!

The blog is awesome, hope lots of people find it. I think both kennels have been brought up on this forum before, which helps because google pulls up the threads. You should also put your dogs onto k9data with the information on their health problems too, in case people look there...

They are cute pups, hope the problems aren't too bad with them!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I live in the Wausau area, and have "known" of South Branch for years. They are not on my list of recommended breeders. There are a number of less than reputable breeders in the area, unfortunately.

There are however 2 very good breeders, very close. One is Ariell Goldens, owned by Ellen Hardin in the Stevens Point area

Home - www.ariellgoldens.com

and my friend Lori is doing her first breeding in 5 years, to this guy

Pedigree: Am. CH Mariah-Hillock Magicl Mystry Tur (All points from Bred-By Exhibitor)

She is in the Marshfield area and her website is

Absolut Golden Retrievers - Wisconsin 

I have never heard of Wisteria Goldens but thanks for the heads up there!

I am so sorry for your experiences. I did have a liver shunt puppy once. It was obvious by 5 weeks that something was wrong, so she stayed with me until we got a diagnosis. Then we worked on stabilizing her, with the intent that she would just live here forever. Abby had a wonderful personality and had other ideas though  A retired schoolteacher came to visit the dogs, fell in love with Abyy and, after several consultations with vets, took Abby home with her. Abby lived with her for 6 very happy years. It has never shown up in the 15-20 years since, so sometimes it can just happen.


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## JavagirlWisc (Dec 31, 2010)

*Thanks to everyone*

Thanks to all of you for sharing your experience and knowledge. I'm sending in our deposit to Dichi today!


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## JavagirlWisc (Dec 31, 2010)

*Just saw the Wausau post*

Tahnee GR,
I just saw your post. I will check out those in the Wausau area in case Dichi doesn't work out for us. Thanks!


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## GBKakis (Jan 8, 2011)

JavagirlWisc said:


> So sorry about Apollo and Max. We are in the Wausau, WI area and are just starting to research breeders. South Branch was one breeder I had contacted but haven't heard back from yet. Do you feel from your experience with Apollo that they should be avoided or is the liver shunt something that they couldn't predict/shouldn't be discounted for?


To be fair to South Branch, Apollo had a *suspected* liver shunt. However, based on the initial purchase price, the likelihood of long-term quality of life decrease, and the odds that he had an untreatable condition based on my vet's recommendation, I was not willing to spend the money necessary to get a full diagnosis and I don't think South Branch did either. What I do know, is that Apollo had severe liver failure when I took him to my vet. We had spent a lot of money on the dog and opted to not have our kids see a dog through liver failure, so we returned Apollo to the breeder based on the purchase contract. I know clinically that liver shunts can also lead to heart failure. So, with a very sick dog that we had spent a lot of money on, we didn't want a dog we had to nurse through an illness when we'd only have him for a month or so. I never got a refund from South Branch as they spent money getting him nursed back and they disagreed with my vet's suspected diagnosis. Unfortunately, from the very beginning, they assumed Apollo was sick because we had been negligent (e.g. leaving fertilizer out for the dogs to eat) and they wouldn't accept any other diagnoses. Frankly, this was hard to hear when Apollo was already becoming part of our family and we take care of our kids and our dogs.  My concern is that they may have sold Apollo to another family without telling them that he had been deathly ill with liver failure, but I have no idea what they did with him. His microchip ID is 151336500A in case someone else has him. It's possible that he had another diagnosis that he was able to get through, but I would still unfortunately consider him to be of suboptimal fitness and it would make me question having spent over a thousand dollars on a dog that would no longer have the implied guarantee of fitness.



JavagirlWisc said:


> The experience with Wisteria is horrible. What good are clearances if people think they know better?! I would think their is some sort of official appeal process if they, and multiple vets, disagree with the finding. And in this case the finding was clearly correct. Hopefully Max will come through it healthy and happy.


I, too, hope that he's able to get through this, but there's almost certainly more expense and he's nearly certain to not have normal joints if he has surgery. I didn't spend $2350 to get a dog with issues like this. I can't even take him for a walk today and that kills me. So, it's probably going to cost me another $1-2K to get him so he can go for a walk, but how long will he be able to walk? Five or six years? It would be nice to get a refund of his purchase price because of 'defective goods' purchased after nondisclosure, but I will need to spend more money on testing for a real diagnosis before the issue will get to the level of a refund.


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## GBKakis (Jan 8, 2011)

jackie_hubert said:


> Thanks for sharing! Even bad breeders are "nice", so you have to do all the legwork for sure.


I agree. The problem is not knowing what level of research is enough. You have to find the 'right' forum/blog that lists a clear guide on how to go through the process. Otherwise, you may piece education together through the 'wrong' or 'suboptimal' forums and miss details that, in fact, turn out to be quite important. I feel like all I had been doing was Googling and searching through forums, but somehow missed that you should get the sire/dam numbers and search for the OFA data yourself. I had thought I'd read enough to know to look for OFA and other clearances, but got burned when I asked for the information that wasn't listed and was reassured that there were no problems. I have now learned the next level of education, but it has cost me a lot of money and I have a dog that my kids cannot really play with. With the unethical breeders out there, it's really soured me on the process and I may just return to the 'pound pup' approach in the future.


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## GBKakis (Jan 8, 2011)

CarolinaCasey said:


> This makes me so sad. I'm sorry that you and yours went through this. I think these terrible breeders, "greeders," prey on suspecting people. So sorry!


Thank you. I hope it'll turn out well, too. I just want to be sure others hear about my mistakes and learn from them.


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## GBKakis (Jan 8, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> There are a ton of people on the forum who have gotten their dogs through elbow dysplasia, mild to severe. They can give you tons of advice on supplements (starting on glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM right now can't hurt and may help), surgical options, limiting exercise, etc.


Thanks. The thought of limiting exercise breaks my heart. I wanted a dog that would be an active part of our lives, including adventures hiking and swimming. I didn't spend this kind of money to get a pet that had to be coddled and it's infuriating.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Sorry but I'm not digging the OP at all. Serious issues with sentences like 

It's possible that he had another diagnosis that he was able to get through, but I would still unfortunately consider him to be of suboptimal fitness and it would make me question having spent over a thousand dollars on a dog that would no longer have the implied guarantee of fitness.

and

I wanted a dog that would be an active part of our lives, including adventures hiking and swimming. I didn't spend this kind of money to get a pet that had to be coddled and it's infuriating. 


Totally too cold of an attitude for the way I feel about dogs/pets. More concerned about being inconvenienced or your expectations not being met than the pain and discomfort that the pet you supposedly love is in and just letting a pup supposedly you loved go back to a place where he may have suffered for days and putting a monetary value on that pain.


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## GBKakis (Jan 8, 2011)

momtoMax said:


> Totally too cold of an attitude for the way I feel about dogs/pets. More concerned about being inconvenienced or your expectations not being met than the pain and discomfort that the pet you supposedly love is in and just letting a pup supposedly you loved go back to a place where he may have suffered for days and putting a monetary value on that pain.


I certainly respect your concern for the well-being of the pets. I care a great deal for the pets when they're part of the home. However, when spending $1-2K on a pet, there's a phase after the transfer where it's still a business transaction and I think there's an expectation that you're getting a healthy animal. That's why the contracts I've seen seem to time out around one year, with implied fitness tending to expire after a year. I would not expect that people would pay that kind of money thinking they were rescuing the animal from a bad living situation. Perhaps those with more money than what I have would consider $1-2K a reasonable expense to rescue an ailing animal, but I cannot afford that. There's a real place for people to be able to rescue and nurture ailing pets and I think of that as being the human society, where the costs of a rescue are closer to $50-100.

So, do I love Max and want to care for him, even as he hurts? Of course. It hurts a great deal to see him limping, wanting to keep up with Mya. A puppy that cannot run is a sad sight for us all. Did it cause great pain in my home when we saw Apollo lying on the floor, barely able to move? Definitely. What you may be perceiving as being cold is the feeling of anger towards the situations at many levels. The animals were/are suffering, the kids were/are hurt about unwell dogs, my wife and I being hurt because of both the animals' distress and our kids' feelings, and of course the concern about getting misled in a business transaction. My instinct when I saw how Apollo was doing and given the severe liver failure was to have him euthanized. This was something I discussed with my vet and she felt it was a very reasonable option. However, the contract I'd signed with South Branch said I could not euthanize him and that he had to be returned to them. It seems to be a common element of the breeder's contracts I've seen in that the animals are to be returned to the breeder for further evaluation. So, his return wasn't out of convenience, but was under the expectation that he would be euthanized in the next couple days at the hands of the breeder.

So, I'm sorry my writing came across as cold. That wasn't my goal. I love seeing my kids interact with the dogs as they become a part of the home. I actually think Max is a cat, as he's constantly in my lap.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> GBKakis, I read your blog and it is nicely done. Your puppies are beautiful. When I speak to potential puppy buyers, I always tell them to check the OFA website for verification and to not trust any one, including me! *Unfortunately, you can still get elbow dysplasia issues even with clear parents and clear relatives.* And the liver shunt is also thought to have a heritable basis as you see it in certain breeds(especially yorkies) but not others. But it is hard to figure out how it is inherited. The Bernese Mountain Dog Club is working on the genetics of liver shunts in their breed. You have certainly not had a positive experience, and I wish you good luck. We will all keep our fingers crossed for Max. As a veterinarian, I have seen some excellent results with arthroscopic surgery for elbows.


I was going to point this out (although I 100% amensure agree that getting clearances and screening the breeders is so very important)...

There are people out there who aren't very sure about whether elbow dysplasia is inherited or if it is caused by injury. And it does show up in dogs who have a clear background, the same as with hip dysplasia. So even if you go with good straight up breeders who do all clearances, you could still find yourself with a young dog with bad legs. 

And with elbow dysplasia especially, you might run into really good breeders who refuse to acknowledge it might be hereditary. They will give you a list of precautions that can seem impossible to adhere to with a rambunctious golden puppy, and if there is any possibility that you slipped up and let your dog jump up and off the couch, run up and down stairs, run up hills, go for regular walks with you, fail to feed an appropriate diet for a fast growing breed.... Then they will tell you it was an injury that you caused. 

I guess what I'm saying is finding a good breeder who does clearances is the first step. The rest is you want to pick a breeder who will be there to support and guide you if your dog does have any problems. It's not just about getting your money back, but the breeder helping you get a handle on where to take your dog to get a certain diagnosis and sort out the treatment plan, what supplements to give your dog to limit his pain and further injury, what to feed your dog to help him maintain his weight while he can't exercise regularly (it might take 12 months before your dog can be a normal-ish dog), how to socialize your dysplastic puppy since he can't get into too many obedience classes, and so forth. 

When my previous golden had bilateral elbow dysplasia, his breeder refused to acknowledge that it was hereditary. She was willing to give us money back (it required neutering) or exchange puppies, but when we turned that down she was still there as support. That helped a TON.

The below pic is my golden with elbow dysplasia having zoomies. He had horrible elbows and never had surgery. We instead opted to treat with suppliments and limited exercise while he was growing and then very careful exercise afterwards. He had his bad days and weeks, which we managed with rest and as needed pain meds (no NSAIDS), but he lived a long and full life. <- A lot of that was due to the help from our vets and the support of his breeder.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Well i am so sorry about what you have had to go through. I can sympathise with you. Wisteria are liars!! know from experience. They do know they have had offspring with hip and elbow dysplasia they just do not care! If u do not have the dog on nuvet vitamins they just will not abide by the contract. I took golden from an elderly lady that bought the dog from wisteria and when i took him he just turned a year old. I knew the lady paid 2000 dollars for him. I wanted to make sure the lady was being honest,so i contacted wisteria and they said they knew of her situation. I was younger then and at the time i did not do my researching ofa on both parents.

Well,I took him home in may and come early September, he started have a limp to his walk/run. I was like....you have got to be kidding me! I contacted the breeder and said she had no known offspring with any hip issues(sound familiar)! So, i was detested to know he might have hip dysplasia at such an early age. I did not want hip to limp the rest of his life. He was on nuvet the whole time up until he started limping, then i switched to something better.

I was devastated!!! I was going to save up the 5000 dollars for the hip replacement, but he died 4 months later. He was outside running around and turned in a circle and dropped dead on the ground. He took 2 shallow breaths and he was dead! It was the wildest thing...he was not even 2 yet! My vet met me at the hospital and she did a necropsy on him and we sent tons of tissue and his organs to estate lab. Weeks later, they could never give me a definite answer how he died! 

So needless to say my next golden, i researched tremendously.

I would never in a million years recommend wisteria.

Again, i am so sorry about what has happened to you. If u need any other advice or help let me know.
I took him in September to a board orthopedic specialist and from there, they determined that he had mild hip dysplasia in one hip and the other was borderline. And his dad was also aspen! 

i am about to throw my phone in the trash!!!!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

GBKakis said:


> Thanks. The thought of limiting exercise breaks my heart. I wanted a dog that would be an active part of our lives, including adventures hiking and swimming. I didn't spend this kind of money to get a pet that had to be coddled and it's infuriating.


It's really a heartbreaking situation. Even when you do everything right, you can still get a joint malformation or other problem in a dog. When you don't do everything right, you're just asking for it, and that's inexcusable in my eyes.

Browse the forum. You'll find stories of dogs with elbow dysplasia who had many healthy years of normal life after surgery. It depends on what kind and grade of ED it is and how quickly you address it. Supplements can really mitigate the problem in many situations and improve results after surgery too. I'd have the dog on a supplement ASAP. Cosequin and Dasequin seem to be the supplements of choice for folks on the forum whose dogs have had joint surgery.

When you get a firmer diagnosis, start a support thread on the issue and I'm sure lots of people will respond with their experience.

As far as being an active companion, you'll have to find out what's really wrong and exactly what the prognosis is. Lots of dogs do well enough after ED surgery to enjoy an active life going on walks with the family, etc.

And remember, it still might not be ED!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Ok GRF subscribers, didja go on those 2 websites(South Branch and Wisteria)??? Both sites breed for that elusive English creme ideal. I have never understood the attraction... Those dogs have nothing behind them, just the color. I will never understand it.


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## GBKakis (Jan 8, 2011)

I took the pup to the referral center today and got the news we feared, but were prepared for. He has Osteochondritis Dissecans (OCD) of the shoulder. While not an easy decision, both from surgical and cost perspectives, we elected to proceed with surgery on his shoulder. Recovery will be around 6 weeks until he's fully recovered.


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

GBKakis said:


> ... I care a great deal for the pets when they're part of the home. However, when spending $1-2K on a pet, there's a phase after the transfer where it's still a business transaction and I think there's an expectation that you're getting a healthy animal...


Wow. For me, my dogs became part of my home before I wrote the check. I never looked at buying or rescuing a dog as a business transaction. Yes, there is an expectation of getting a healthy dog but sometimes it doesn't work out that way, just like with human babies. When do your dogs become part of your family? After a 6 month probation period? Do you tell your kids to not start liking the dog too much because he might fail your expectations during the probation period?


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## GBKakis (Jan 8, 2011)

artbuc said:


> Wow. For me, my dogs became part of my home before I wrote the check. I never looked at buying or rescuing a dog as a business transaction. Yes, there is an expectation of getting a healthy dog but sometimes it doesn't work out that way, just like with human babies. When do your dogs become part of your family? After a 6 month probation period? Do you tell your kids to not start liking the dog too much because he might fail your expectations during the probation period?


I know we all have different expectations. I don't have enough money to think that I'm rescuing a dog when spending $1-2K on it. Spending $2K will always be a business transaction for me, whether it's $2K for a dog or $2K for a TV. I think the whole point of buying a dog from a breeder is that you're getting something "better" by spending $1-2K. Otherwise we'd all just go to a pound and wait for that special golden retriever to come through that way and spend $50-150 on a rescue. I thought the whole point of going to a breeder was to go to someone trying to uphold the breed standard and someone looking to further the breed. Doesn't that imply getting something better than the pound pup that was from some unplanned midnight escapade?

I may be cold, but I put my kids in an entirely different light than my dogs. It's interesting to see your analogy to human babies -- they're just not in the same group. I'd sacrifice my life to protect my kids and wife, but I wouldn't do the same for my dogs. When it comes down to it, they're only going to be part of our lives, albeit an important one, for a short time.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I haven't seen shoulder OCD in a golden in a long time. It is a very treatable condition with a very good outcome. Years ago, a good golden breeder in this area had a litter of pups and all were sound. Then she bred to a popular sire in the New England area... the litter was primarily boys and I think at least 5 of them had shoulder OCD. The OCD was no one's fault, just the bad luck of genetics... the pups that I knew as patients had successful surgery(and were never lame).


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

PS I'd rather have a family pet with shoulder OCD than ED.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> The OCD was no one's fault, just the bad luck of genetics...


How could they be sure it was no one's fault? The reason why I ask is because our guy with the ED was suspected of having OCD or Pano (I might have mentioned this earlier in the thread, but we had three or four vets including a specialist who all had different diagnoses. 

What I read about OCD at the time (because I never heard of it) was that it can be caused by a combination of rapid growth and nutrition and even an injury (too much exercise and exertion for a puppy). 

And that's why people think you can prevent OCD and ED even in dogs who have that genetic weakness.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Overfeeding and overexercise certainly exacerbate orthopedic issues, but 5 pups raised differently by 5 different people... then genetics is a big part of the equation. The breeder herself, kept one that developed OCD and ended up as in a pet home with a friend. My point was that in the bitch's first litter, there were no orthopedic issues. Then when bred to a different stud dog, there were multiple issues with shoulder OCD. In this area, we see a lot of labs with hock OCD. It is just too widespread and across lines to believe that genetics isn't a large component.


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## GBKakis (Jan 8, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> I haven't seen shoulder OCD in a golden in a long time. It is a very treatable condition with a very good outcome. Years ago, a good golden breeder in this area had a litter of pups and all were sound. Then she bred to a popular sire in the New England area... the litter was primarily boys and I think at least 5 of them had shoulder OCD. The OCD was no one's fault, just the bad luck of genetics... the pups that I knew as patients had successful surgery(and were never lame).


Thanks for the encouraging words about surgical outcome. Hope it works out for us, too!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

The GR we had as a kid had OCD, and at least three or four dogs out of a litter of 10 or so had it (I don't remember the exact numbers, since I was young, but I do remember the other families having to go through the surgery with their dogs). So I've always felt that it was strongly influenced by genes, and I think the distribution of the condition does confirm that it's at least influenced by genes.

All these joint issues are partly caused by genetic factors allowing for the disease and party caused or worsened by environmental factors. It's a real question as to how much of each (genes or environment) play a part in each individual case. A dog my have mild HD on an x-ray but never show symptoms throughout life, and a dog who doesn't technically have HD may experience severe arthritis in the hips in old age. Weight, diet, and a host of other factors are certainly part of the equation.

I wouldn't call OCD a breeder's "fault," though competition in conformation and sport may help weed out dogs who are more prone to non-cleared joint conditions like OCD, so that's one of many reasons I would seek a hobby breeder over other kinds of breeders, even if all clearances are done.

My dog with OCD did wonderfully, though he died of cancer before old age (7). One of the other OCD dogs lived a long, happy life, though (13). In my limited understanding of OCD, I believe that it's probably a better prognosis than many kinds of ED. But your orthopedist will know more about that.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

PS - I hope you've started some supplements already. If not, I would definitely get on it. You can order a huge bottle of Dasequin chewable tablets and give them as treats twice a day or whatever's indicated on the bottle.


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## GBKakis (Jan 8, 2011)

1. Surgery went well. Removed a quarter-sized mobile fragment. No wonder he was limping!
2. Have not started supplements yet. My familiarity of the supplements comes from human data and those data have suggested there is little data demonstrating a clear benefit, yet there is plenty of data suggesting a *possible* benefit. Early on, research in people was done through the NIH using Cosamin DS. More recent data seems to suggest there is a large placebo benefit, to the point that the benefit seen in studies may have been entirely attributable to placebo effect. In talking to people who have an academic basis to primary medicine, they're not using these supplements very much in people any longer, so I question the true utility in dogs as well. It's not that I'm trying to start a fight on this forum, but I'd be curious about objective data dogs. The problem with supplements is their benefits are largely based on anecdotal evidence, with the glucosamine/chondrointin pairing being a common topic without clear benefit. Many of us are willing to spend a few dollars with the possibility of benefit when there is little chance of harm. So, I don't question people's using the glucosamine/chondrointin pairing as long as they do it with a clear understanding of these data. Or, more importantly, the lack of data showing clear benefit.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

My opinion on joint supplements is that they don't have the potential for harm (unless an individual dog is allergic), and they do have the potential for helping. Even if they end up not doing anything, they didn't hurt. Personally I'm willing to pay for that "insurance" that they *might* help.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think giving my ED dog Gylcoflex all his life kept him comfortable. He never had surgery but was kept comfortable to the point he even was able to try agility for a while, as long as he could do it and didn't balk. 

There might not be enough evidence showing actual benefits... but observation as an owner is enough for me to keep my current guy on a supplement with glucosamine/chondroitin/msm. 

@OP - I'm so glad the surgery went well.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

IowaGold said:


> My opinion on joint supplements is that they don't have the potential for harm (unless an individual dog is allergic), and they do have the potential for helping. Even if they end up not doing anything, they didn't hurt. Personally I'm willing to pay for that "insurance" that they *might* help.


I'm with IowaGold on this one. There's _some_ evidence that they may help, though it's hardly an amount of evidence or a consistency that proves anything beyond a reasonable doubt. And since they certainly don't hurt, it seems like a smart idea.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

What more proof do you need other than peoples real life experiences?? Science/research is not going to change the fact that dogs have benefitted from glucosamine/chondroiton supplements nor is it going to change the fact that dogs are not human and therefore their body is different.
I have been giving my dog glucosamine supplements and it HAS made a whole lot of difference for her!! She now WANTS to run and play with the other dogs, she can now go for a walk and not end up limping in pain afterwards, she is now noticably more comfortable and happy - she did not get this way because I wished it. I have changed nothing other than giving the supplement - I did my research- some of the info said yes, it works other info said no it doesnt -I took a chance, spent a few bucks and have a much happier dog for it.


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## GBKakis (Jan 8, 2011)

IowaGold said:


> My opinion on joint supplements is that they don't have the potential for harm (unless an individual dog is allergic), and they do have the potential for helping. Even if they end up not doing anything, they didn't hurt. Personally I'm willing to pay for that "insurance" that they *might* help.


I agree with this line of thought completely. If people can afford to get these glucosamine/chondrointin supplements, then I think it's a reasonable approach.

The main reason I mentioned the data is that sometimes people who have severely limited funds may invest in the supplements because they think there is clear benefit, which there isn't. Too often I hear of people that spend $20-30/month on a single supplement, but they indicate they're having a hard time finding the funds to do other health-conscious things like go to a gym or see a nutritionist, both of which cost a similar amount as the supplements but have more proven benefits.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Charliethree said:


> What more proof do you need other than peoples real life experiences?? Science/research is not going to change the fact that dogs have benefitted from glucosamine/chondroiton supplements nor is it going to change the fact that dogs are not human and therefore their body is different.
> I have been giving my dog glucosamine supplements and it HAS made a whole lot of difference for her!! She now WANTS to run and play with the other dogs, she can now go for a walk and not end up limping in pain afterwards, she is now noticably more comfortable and happy - she did not get this way because I wished it. I have changed nothing other than giving the supplement - I did my research- some of the info said yes, it works other info said no it doesnt -I took a chance, spent a few bucks and have a much happier dog for it.


This kind of experience is very persuasive to me, but if you evaluate what the OP is saying from a perfectly scientific standpoint, the anecdotal experiences are not a valid piece of scientific data because they are not experimentally controlled. 

Personal experience is good personal evidence (and I give the supplements myself, so I do find it persuasive), but it is definitely not scientific evidence.

I've read some of the firsthand scientific work, and I do find it persuasive. It's incredibly difficult to measure reduction in pain. In dogs, you can't ask them directly, so you're left trying to judge how well the dog is moving or what his attitude is over the course of a gradual change. With a person, you can ask about the pain, but pain is strongly influenced by the meaning response (the key part of the placebo effect), so that becomes hard to say.

Dissecting the joint of a deceased animal can tell you something, but even if you can't find a measurable difference (and you're comparing different animals anyway), that doesn't mean that pain wasn't decreased. And even if you can find a measurable reduction in degeneration, that doesn't necessarily mean that pain _was_ decreased.

Like many things, you need to make a judgment call based on the available evidence. In the case of a dog who's had joint surgery, these supplements seem like a good hedge of your bets. You're really trying to throw every possible barricade up against joint degeneration, and even if a joint supplement isn't proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, to me, it's a no brainer to try it.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

JAVMA had 2 articles either in 2009 or 2010 about the benefits of fish oil in osteoarthritis. I find that more factual than anecdotal. As I have said in the past, all of my dogs were raised on Cosequin DS(now Dasuquin w/ MSM) and fish oil. I'm with the previous posters in this thread that if it can't hurt, and might help, do it. My second golden had a skip in her gait(she was OFA Fair at 24 months then unilaterally dysplastic at 44 months), I started her on Cosequin DS (no NSAID's). She stopped "skipping" and was still competing(jumping) in the obedience ring at almost 12 years(she stopped because that's when her splenic tumor ruptured). My 11 year old girl can still jump from a standstill onto the exam tables at my work. She is totally NSAID free.


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## GBKakis (Jan 8, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> ...my dogs were raised on Cosequin DS(now Dasuquin w/ MSM) and fish oil...


I know there will be preferences in choosing supplement brands, often clouded by statement of purity and/or quality, but *are there data supporting some specific brands of glucosamine and chondrointin*? Also, my vet didn't have any recommendation on MSM and it's not something we use in people, so I'm not familiar with it. I've seen some supplements with and some without MSM.

_<<<Only read on if you're bored. My reason for this post is above in bold.>>>_

My experience with people is that it's like touching the sacred third rail to criticize supplements, even if it's valid. For example, I'll routinely have people bring in their bottles of supplements purchased at natural food or vitamin shops. I review the ingredients with them and it's not infrequent that these sources: 1) cloud the ingredients with grandiose claims, and 2) have lower levels of the specified ingredients.

A good example is fish oil. I think it's a terrific supplement, largely for improving triglyceride levels in the blood. There are many other claims, but the one I pay the most attention to is cholesterol/triglyceride levels. I drove all around my region looking at local stores for levels of omega-3 fatty acids in their over-the-counter products. The prescription form of omega-3 fatty acids has 1000mg of the active components in each capsule and the goal is to get 2000-4000mg of omega-3 daily. Most of the local stores have 300-360mg per capsule. Now, this isn't unreasonable, but you have to understand that you need at least six capsules a day -- something not mentioned on the labels. The only two places that had desirable levels were Sam's Club (interestingly, not at Walmart) and GNC, both listing 900mg per capsule. The two boutique vitamin shops locally that were felt by locals to have the best products actually only had 180-240mg per capsule, so I try hard to steer people away from these products. From a cost perspective, Sam's won hands down, with GNC having a very similar product. CVS, Walgreens, Target, and the like had the mid-range product that's likely not necessarily bad, but will cost quite a bit more to get to therapeutic levels. Some may bring up the mercury issue, but even if the products claim to be purified to limit mercury content, this isn't a validated claim and shouldn't be used as a basis for purchase.

Another supplement I watch is niacin (vitamin B3), also used for cholesterol treatment. The most common forms available over-the-counter (e.g. flush-free, no-flush, time-release) are actually not very effective for cholesterol treatment and should be avoided, even though they are available. The best form is the immediate release form. It's only ~$2/month and is available OTC. As a general FYI, immediate release niacin should be used in the realm of 500mg twice daily for cholesterol treatment.

I still see people taking vitamin E as an antioxidant, even though there were massive, well-done studies showing the drug had no benefit. I also see people buying a lot of red yeast rice extract (RYRE), thinking it's a natural medicine, but in fact most people don't realize the reason it works is that it *IS* a statin and they can get it much more cheaply with a prescription. RYRE typically costs $20-30/month to get a low dose OTC and is closer to $50-60/month to get a good dose. It's prescribed as lovastatin (Mevacor). There are very cheap, generic statins that cost $4-5/month. So, the only reason I can come up with why people would use the RYR is to avoid the cost of going to the doctor. However, at $60/year with a prescription plus $100-200 to go to the doctor vs $600/year of RYRE OTC, the math doesn't make sense. Either people aren't taking enough or they're spending a lot of extra money. Yes, there are other benefits of going to the doctor for this (e.g. lab testing for liver injury).

Point being, _there are plenty of good and bad statements about supplements. I encourage their use, but in an intelligent manner_. However, I see *A LOT* of money spent on supplements blindly, not fully understanding the data. Yes, this is a supplement rant and I'm through. Sorry. I feel passionate about this and am concerned about people's money. Hopefully I can help some people with my knowledge of these supplements in people and someone else can impart their knowledge on me with respect to clinical data of supplements in dogs.


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## RichBrubaker (Nov 25, 2010)

*Liver Shunt*

Can you tell me if Abby had surgery to correct the shunt and if so at what age? 

Thanks


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Rich 
I have quite a bit of experience with shunts.... I have a golden of my breeding who had a shunt that was repaired by chick weisse in NYC who is nationally known for his repair of shunts in larger breeds.... Most smaller dogs (the disease process in smaller dogs is completely different than in larger dogs ) go to the University of Tennessee.... I am happy to help you if you are having shunt questions. At the present time we have a rescue Flat Coated Retriever who is going to have shunt surgery in two weeks. 

Shunts are not thought to be genetic in goldens although reputable breeders like myself who have produced one are very careful to check all puppies although they will tend to show up more in Goldens and Labs and according to the researcher I deal wtih that may simply be a factor of the numbers of these dogs bred and their popularity. However, shunts are genetic in wolfhounds and schnauzers that I know of. That having been said smaller dogs tend to have shunts and those shunts are usually external to the liver... in large breeds the shunts tend to be internal to the liver and thus a bit more difficult..... in the past repairing shunts was a very dangerous surgery with only about 40% of the dogs surviving the surgery itself not to mention the recovery... now with the newer interventional radiology procedure that Chick Weisse has perfected and travels the world teaching the surgical survival rate runs between 80-90% and many dogs are living perfectly normal lives including my own Bing. It is not cheap....If you choose to medically manage or even if you plan on having surgery then it is important to know that most shunt dogs have Moderate to severe irritable bowel disease and ulcers to a prilosec every day is important to minimize the damage of the IBD also metronidizol at 5-7 mg/kg to keep bacteria in the gut down in addition to the lactulose and low protein diet. 

Bing has the "most bizarre" liver Chick had ever seen and with the surgery he is on regular food, off all medications (except his prilosec and herbs) and his blood work is normal. He had been given a year and he is now 2.5..... we are hoping for the same for Cody. If I can be of any help please let me know unfortunately I have a bit of experience in this 
S


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## Kales86 (Apr 27, 2020)

Shalva said:


> Rich
> I have quite a bit of experience with shunts.... I have a golden of my breeding who had a shunt that was repaired by chick weisse in NYC who is nationally known for his repair of shunts in larger breeds.... Most smaller dogs (the disease process in smaller dogs is completely different than in larger dogs ) go to the University of Tennessee.... I am happy to help you if you are having shunt questions. At the present time we have a rescue Flat Coated Retriever who is going to have shunt surgery in two weeks.
> 
> Shunts are not thought to be genetic in goldens although reputable breeders like myself who have produced one are very careful to check all puppies although they will tend to show up more in Goldens and Labs and according to the researcher I deal wtih that may simply be a factor of the numbers of these dogs bred and their popularity. However, shunts are genetic in wolfhounds and schnauzers that I know of. That having been said smaller dogs tend to have shunts and those shunts are usually external to the liver... in large breeds the shunts tend to be internal to the liver and thus a bit more difficult..... in the past repairing shunts was a very dangerous surgery with only about 40% of the dogs surviving the surgery itself not to mention the recovery... now with the newer interventional radiology procedure that Chick Weisse has perfected and travels the world teaching the surgical survival rate runs between 80-90% and many dogs are living perfectly normal lives including my own Bing. It is not cheap....If you choose to medically manage or even if you plan on having surgery then it is important to know that most shunt dogs have Moderate to severe irritable bowel disease and ulcers to a prilosec every day is important to minimize the damage of the IBD also metronidizol at 5-7 mg/kg to keep bacteria in the gut down in addition to the lactulose and low protein diet.
> ...


Hi Shava - I am not sure if you are still on here as this post is quite old. My puppy is almost 5 months and I think he will need surgery. Do you know after a surgery if he will grow to be a normal size golden retriever? If not, how underweight are they typically?


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Kales86 said:


> Hi Shava - I am not sure if you are still on here as this post is quite old. My puppy is almost 5 months and I think he will need surgery. Do you know after a surgery if he will grow to be a normal size golden retriever? If not, how underweight are they typically?


I responded to your private message, you are welcome also to find me on facebook milbrose stephanie, I am not here much at all anymore


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