# raw food diet?



## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

I'm newer to this forum myself so don't know if there is a separate raw feeding section. I haven't fed raw but know it's a growing interest. There is quite a strong and informative group of raw feeders on a lab forum where you can probably get a lot of info. http://lab-retrievers.net Hope that helps.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

I have fed a raw food diet to both my dogs for almost a year and a half now. They are both doing extremely well on it. If you'd like any info, I'd be more than happy to help. Just PM me! 

Also, that lab forum mentioned above is a GREAT resource.. I am a member of that forum for their raw feeding section even though I don't own a lab myself!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I feed a raw diet and have for about 8 years. It is a combination diet based on my Rowdy's needs (not the traditional BARF since chicken just couldn't be eaten 2 days in a row by the Rowdster .. grins) ; he was an extremely allergic dog who finally become healthy once I transitioned to almost 100% raw. The almost portion comes in with cooked training treats and occasional pasta or potatoes to keep their weight UP.

My dogs do great on the diet.

If you choose to go raw, be willing to experiment with what suits your dogs and wallet and include variety in their meals. I hope this helps.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Sunrise said:


> he was an extremely allergic dog who finally become healthy once I transitioned to almost 100% raw.



This was the case for Sam as well... his allergy symptoms cleared up within ONE WEEK of switching to a raw diet. Not exaggerating.


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## Popebendgoldens (May 16, 2008)

ORgolden said:


> hello all,
> I have heard so much great stuff about this and I am trying to find more information about this diet and was wondering if any one had any great information or their own experinces with this diet. I guess I just dont know where to start


I have been feeding a raw diet to my dogs for over 10 years. 

Here are some great websites to check out. www.rawmeatybones.com and www.rawlearning.com . There are also some excellent email groups on yahoo to get even more knowledge about feeding a raw diet. 

Once you have totally committed to feeding a raw diet then here is a yahoo group to join that's sole purpose is for finding suppliers to buy the raw diet from
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/


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## gold'nchocolate (May 31, 2005)

Here is another site to check out: http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm


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## BeckyB (Jan 21, 2008)

I feed a raw diet and would never go back to feeding kibble
I feed "prey model" or frakenpray (parts of whole animals,as i cant feed whole prey) 
I dont feed any grains or veggies
Just meat,bone and organs
There are lots of great yahoo groups,like rawchat
I have a chest freezer and buy my meat in bulk for cheaper
It is really easy to get started
Good luck


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## MyCodyBoy (Sep 27, 2008)

you can buy frozen patties that are made to be a complete diet for dogs. So no mixing from you. It does cost a little more than if you went and bought all the meat and veggies and supplments. 
But if you bought patties, many of them come with ground up bones, veggies and everything the dog needs for a comeplete diet. I good one will not use any artifical supplements but rather use food sources for all vitamines and minurals.
A good one I know of in canada is Arush.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

MyCodyBoy said:


> you can buy frozen patties that are made to be a complete diet for dogs. So no mixing from you. It does cost a little more than if you went and bought all the meat and veggies and supplments.
> But if you bought patties, many of them come with ground up bones, veggies and everything the dog needs for a comeplete diet. I good one will not use any artifical supplements but rather use food sources for all vitamines and minurals.
> A good one I know of in canada is Arush.



It's about 4x as expensive to feed pre-made raw than what I pay buying meat in bulk from a meat locker. But it is how I began feeding raw and its a great way to get started if you can afford it.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Shelley can't eat raw mince meat as it gives her sloopy poo's. Shes fine with raw meaty bones.


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## Cody's pet (Jun 3, 2009)

Hi, I'm new, have a 6mth old goldie and I want to feed him raw. I've sort-of been going it half-half, because I was unsure, then I cooked for him (veg), but gave lots of raw meat and veg also, now I am moving to all raw food. He's a very big boy, at 6 mths he's 22" tall and weighs 30kg (I'm trying to get it down a bit). His sire and dam are both champions, good hips & eyes, sire 24" and dam 22", so they're big dogs.

How much should I be feeding him each day? He still has 3 small meals per day, but he's a real beggar.


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## BeckyB (Jan 21, 2008)

If your feeding all raw you would feed 2-3% of the expected adult weight,of that
80% meat, 10%organ and 10% bone
At first you would feed more than 10% bone to keep your dogs stools normal as hes getting use to the new food
Keep on eye on his stools, if there comming out white add more meat and less bone
You dont need to meet 80/10/10 daily but over time
Sometimes i feed a bone in meat meal one day and only meat the next day and organ a couple days a week
Start with one protein source and when he gets use to one add another tiny piece of the new food.
Your dog has no need for veggies,its just taking up space of where meat should be,wolves do not eat the stomach contents of there prey,
they shake the stomach to remove there contents,tripe would be a great addition to his diet if you can get it raw and not bleached.
Good luck with your new puppy


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Just to provide a voice from the other side, I have serious concerns about the long term safety of feeding raw. There's some evidence to suggest that the dog fed raw may be able to pass more strains of E. coli and salmonella to humans more easily than a dog who doesn't.

Also, all the ER vets I know are strongly opposed to raw feeding, since they deal with the E. coli and salmonella poisoning of dogs on raw on a regular basis, as well as the obstruction hazards from the bones. I don't believe that the vets are somehow in cahoots with the dog food companies; I genuinely believe their cautions are sincere. Those risks may have a fairly low incidence, but they're high enough that the ER vets I know are quite adamant that the diet isn't safe enough.

Certainly, lots of people have great experiences with raw feeding, but I think anybody who's starting up with it needs to go in with their eyes wide open, aware of the tradeoffs and potential risks.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

As Tippykayak described, our vets are adamantly opposed to feeding raw- both our regular practice vets and our board certified internist who specializes in oncology.They cite rare/exotic infections and nutritional mistakes people make with supplements among other reasons.

I am drawn to the idea of feeding raw, especially with all the cancer in goldens combined with worry about the dog food company recalls, but I could never forgive myself if I defied the vets and then a dog did get sick.

This article's second half is against feeding raw was written by a breeders' vet in the CT town in which I used to live:http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/dogdiets.html

On the other hand, the breeder of Finn,Gus&Ajax has dogs living to 14 and 15 eating raw all their lives.

It is a confusing decision.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

I've found ONE vet anywhere near me who is not adamantly opposed to my feeding my dogs a raw diet. Guess what vet I go to. LOL

It's not like she's pushing the diet to clients.. but knowing the troubles I went through with Sam's allergies, she fully supports it and tells me he is one of the healthiest looking dogs she seen in a long time. 

If for some reason the diet isn't working well for either of mine at some point, I have no problem putting them on kibble again. I'm not a raw food snob.. I just see what has worked wonders for my dog and go with it. Believe me, I can think of better things to do on my weekend than watching cases of meat defrost and spending a couple hours separating and bagging it up. :doh:

I've said before, and I'll say again, a raw diet is not for every dog, nor is it for every dog owner. It's a lot of work, a lot of planning, but I do really enjoy knowing what exactly my dogs are eating every day and seeing the benefits of such a natural diet for them.


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## Cody's pet (Jun 3, 2009)

*Raw Food*

Hi tippykayak, Ljilly28 & missmarstar,

I currently still doing research on it but so far it looks pretty promising to me. I have been reading for and against literature for months now and although I agree, it's pretty confusing, I have noticed that the people opposing it are generally vets and others with a vested "professional" interest in dogs and not people who have actually tried it and said it didn't work for them & their dogs. I've read a few forums and other areas about it, and those non-pros opposed to it aren't even people who have actually tried it. 

Usually with something like this you will get people who tried it and for whom it didn't work who are pretty vocal in their protest against it, but so far I haven't found such a person. Do you know of anyone first-hand that has tried it and lost an animal to it, or who found it was bad for their animals' health? If so, can you please point me in their direction as I'd like to hear their stories first-hand. I am, however, hearing many good things about raw food from people who have actually been doing it, some for many years. Yes, you do have risks accociated with eating bone, but then evene vets tell you to give "appropriate bones" any of which can be broken by an adult dog with strong jaws and ingested. Many dogs also bury bones, then dig them up and eat them later and they are still fine. I see that the vet in Ljilly28's link says you can put a half-eaten bone back in the fridge and give it to the dog later. If you and I did this with food we'd get pretty sick, so why not the dog?

As for dogs cancers, I'd like to point out that the higher prevalence of cancers in dogs today is more likely related to us spaying them way too young than to their food. In 2007 there was a study done 
(some of which is quoted in this link below)ttp://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html 
which showed how the incidence of cancer and other scary dog illnesses skyrockets with early spaying & neutering. Early neutering of dogs and bitches more than doubles their risk of bone cancer. We will only be neutering our dog when he is sexually mature to minimise his risks.

I am probably more open to the whole raw food thing because I grew up on a farm and we've always fed our dogs raw meat and offal as part of their diet. I think as people grow away from farming roots and fewer people have the rought-and-ready experiences of seeing animals live a bit wilder first-hand, people become a bit more ware of such things. However I've had many dogs in my life and so has the rest of my family, and none of them have ever died or become ill from this practice. Even now my dog gets raw food, the question for me was more do I go 100% raw or not. 

BeckyB thanks for your help. I found Achinook's website and he gave me the same ratios for the meat, with the added note that only 5% of the organ meat should be liver to prevent Vitamin A toxicity. I gave my dog one raw meal today, but he seems to be less than impressed with the tongue, he seems to prefer to have it cooked as he was begging some cooked tongue off my husband . I don't intend to feed him cooked tongue, so I just ground it fine and he got it in, in the end. He had lambs heart, rabbit and sheeps kidneys, veal liver and meat, some rabbit and chicken neck and gibblets. He loved the rabbit and veal and I gave him washed chicken gibblets as I couldn't get green tripe anywhere. He was looking for some more to beg off me at dinnertime, so I gave him the chicken wing I kept out of his food for that and also a bone cut so he can get to the marrow to keep him busy after that. He seems to be very happy with it all, but I am still worried about going 100% raw and will continue to try and find someone with a first-hand horror story to share. 

Thanks for the help everyone.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Cody's pet said:


> I currently still doing research on it but so far it looks pretty promising to me. I have been reading for and against literature for months now and although I agree, it's pretty confusing, I have noticed that the people opposing it are generally vets and others with a vested "professional" interest in dogs and not people who have actually tried it and said it didn't work for them & their dogs. I've read a few forums and other areas about it, and those non-pros opposed to it aren't even people who have actually tried it.


I find the "don't knock it until you've tried it" argument not really persuasive. There are plenty of things I absolutely won't put in my dogs based on how dangerous they might be, and I don't need to hear a horror story in order to know it's a bad idea.

Anecdotal evidence can help us understand an issue, but it's not a great thing to base decisions off of. If you needed a raw horror story in order to influence your decision, there are threads on here dealing with bone obstructions. There was one a week or to ago where a raw chicken wing landed a pup in the ER.



Cody's pet said:


> As for dogs cancers, I'd like to point out that the higher prevalence of cancers in dogs today is more likely related to us spaying them way too young than to their food. In 2007 there was a study done
> (some of which is quoted in this link below)ttp://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
> which showed how the incidence of cancer and other scary dog illnesses skyrockets with early spaying & neutering. Early neutering of dogs and bitches more than doubles their risk of bone cancer. We will only be neutering our dog when he is sexually mature to minimise his risks.


First of all, that wasn't a study. It's a paper based on several studies, some large, some small, and some twisted way out of context to support the views of the paper's author. Ljilly recently posted a wonderful rebuttal to that article written by concerned vets because they felt it twisted the evidence pretty badly. The bone cancer argument, for example, is effectively dissected. Essentially, the article you posted cites evidence of "early" neutering from studies in which the age of the dogs wasn't defined and studied. Does "early" neutering mean the traditional six months, the three months that rescued dogs are often neutered at, or anything under two years?

The fact is that the median age of the neutered dogs in the bone cancer study was dramatically higher than six months. I don't recall it offhand, and since I'm a free member, searching the forum is a big pain, so I can't find Ljilly's post. The fact of the matter remains, however, that the person who wrote the article you posted was interested in proving his point, and at times even contradicting the findings of the authors of the studies he cited in order to accomplish his goals.

But anyway, the firsthand experience I was describing came from three ER vets who have personally removed obstructing raw bones by endoscope and by surgery and the same three who have treated salmonella poisoning. They're talking about multiple times, not rarities. That's the anecdotal evidence that helped persuade me along with the larger scale science involved.

If you find legitimate scientific research about feeding raw, please post it. I'm always trying to learn more about it since people seem so enthusiastic.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I feed faw, but I feed ground raw. I do have a friend who lost her Pit Bull to a turkey neck. I also have a friend with a Collie who was older when she transitioned her dogs to raw. Despite trying several variations on the diet, the dog never really did that well (continually bad poo), so she switched back to kibble.

Most of the people I run with in the competitive dog world are feeding faw. Several of the local Golden breeders are too. Both my dogs are very healthy. My oldest, Zoie, turns 9 this year. You'd not know it by looking at her. Maybe she just has good genes, I don't know...

I know people worry about e-coli transmission to humans. I've never felt it to be a problem. I'm careful to wash my hands and wipe down the counter after dishing out food. B/C I serve ground food, they aren't messy eaters. I spoon it into the bowl and down it goes. Their teeth are great, 'tho maybe not as great as if they had bones more often. We chew Nylabones for fun and every now and then I put down a marrow bone. I think the enzymes in the raw, even w/o bones, help keep teeth cleaner.


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## Suzie G (Jun 29, 2008)

Hi, Suzie G. here

I have fed raw for 12 yrs with no problems at all (Newfs and Goldens ) I would highly recomend checking out the [email protected]. This is a WONDERFUL and very helpful group of rawfeeders who can answer ANY questions you might have about feeding a totally raw diet. I have been feeding Maggie raw -whole prey model diet since she was 7 weeks old. She just turned 2 yrs old last week and is wonderfully healthy and active. I would also suggest reading-www.rawlearning.com , www.rawfed.com , rawfeddogs.net/Recipes , rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist


Good Luck and happy learning


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I feed faw, but I feed ground raw. I do have a friend who lost her Pit Bull to a turkey neck. I also have a friend with a Collie who was older when she transitioned her dogs to raw. Despite trying several variations on the diet, the dog never really did that well (continually bad poo), so she switched back to kibble.
> 
> Most of the people I run with in the competitive dog world are feeding faw. Several of the local Golden breeders are too. Both my dogs are very healthy. My oldest, Zoie, turns 9 this year. You'd not know it by looking at her. Maybe she just has good genes, I don't know...
> 
> I know people worry about e-coli transmission to humans. I've never felt it to be a problem. I'm careful to wash my hands and wipe down the counter after dishing out food. B/C I serve ground food, they aren't messy eaters. I spoon it into the bowl and down it goes. Their teeth are great, 'tho maybe not as great as if they had bones more often. We chew Nylabones for fun and every now and then I put down a marrow bone. I think the enzymes in the raw, even w/o bones, help keep teeth cleaner.


 
Stephanie..... are you feeding one of the commercial mixes, or are you grinding meat, bone etc. Do you include vegs???? If I went raw, I would feel better about feeding ground.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Oh hey - I found that article rebutting the one about early neutering. Thank goodness for the new Google search feature:

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/maddiesfu...uter/young.htm


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## Cody's pet (Jun 3, 2009)

*Raw Food*

Wow tippykayak you certainly don't mince words! :uhoh: I wasn't saying don't knock it until you've tried it about just any old thing, I was saying it about a way of feeding your dog that looks sensible to me and that sounds good to me. And not just because I was "told so", but because of personal experiences, because I read a lot about it (pros and cons) and because I have been lurking on forums such as these for ages now, looking for any reasonable reason why I would not feed my dog raw meat. I am of the firm opinion that a 0.2% difference in mDNA between wolves and dogs actually means just that, that my dog is a tame wolf that has adapted to living with humans. (Robert K. Wayne, Ph.D. - Canid Genetics also C Vilà et al - Multiple and Ancient Origins of the Domestic Dog )I am also of the opinion that since my dogs gut is shorter than mine and way more acidic, he was obviously made to eat more meat than grain & veg. I was also a veterinary assistant for 8 years of my life in a farming community and can't say I ever saw a single dog come in for salmonella poisoning, bone obstruction or any other such problem. Considering that most farmers in a sheep-rearing community feed their dogs the bits of sheep no-one wants and lots of meaty bones which stay around the garden until they are buried (for later resurection)or stolen by foxes, I reckon we were _pretty lucky _in comparison to your vet friends in the ER who seem to have seen so many incidences. Unless of course they were removing cooked bones, which many city-folk can buy at their local pet shop as "smoked" bone or simply cook for their dogs at home because they are so afraid of bacteria and "gross" blood that they'd rather kill their dog by cooking everything. 

I think most people opposed to raw feeding are just squamish and trying to anthromorphise their pets. They don't like thinking about the fact that their little furry cuddly-wuddly is actually a tame wolf.

My point is that if anyone lost a dog to raw feeding they'd be on these raw food forums letting the world know about it. I certainly would if it were me and even one such incidence would have put me off the idea entirely! Fact is, I haven't found that horror story yet, just many, many good news stories and so I am inclined to accept the evidence before me as given to me by people who have nothing to win or lose by my decision. Yes, I have read some pretty fanatical raw feeding stuff, but I am by nature a sceptic, so I tend to take anything that sounds too good to be true with a bag of salt. I am sure there are dogs out there who can't deal with raw food. Their gut is so alkaline because of eating grain for most of their lives that they have trouble digesting raw protein. Those dogs are usually also dogs with wind and other gastric problems and should be brought across to a raw diet really gradually, if at all. 

I am very careful as to what I give my dog, and the lesson learnt by FlyingQuizini's friend with the pitbull was not lost on me. However since I found my own dog to hoover down chicken necks as a pup I have been breaking them into smaller pieces for him. Not cutting them, which would leave sharp bones, but breaking them along the vertabrae so he can eat them without danger of obstruction. 

As for sharp chicken bones - all you can do is be sensible and remove the sharp bone from the chicken wing if it bugs you.


Suzie G. thanks heaps for the links.


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## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I feed faw, but I feed ground raw.



Stephanie, do you make your own raw mixture or do you buy prepackaged raw? If you are making it yourself, what type of grinder to you have for the bones? 

I have fed raw in the past but it's been prepackaged raw or Urban Wolf which is a balanced pre-mix to which you add ground beef, eggs, oils & water. Pippa is a pig and I am worried she would try to swallow chicken or turkey bones whole.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Cody's pet said:


> Wow tippykayak you certainly don't mince words!


Sure don't! I figured honest advice and a principled, dissenting viewpoint was the best answer to the question. If what you were looking for was support for a view you'd already decided on, I'm not your guy. One note on my dissent: it always comes with respect for your point of view, good will, and occasionally hugs.



Cody's pet said:


> Unless of course they were removing cooked bones, which many city-folk can buy at their local pet shop as "smoked" bone or simply cook for their dogs at home because they are so afraid of bacteria and "gross" blood that they'd rather kill their dog by cooking everything.


Well, I'm a huge fan of sushi and rare steak, and I butcher my own whole chickens at home, so I don't think that's a fair characterization of me as someone who believes it's safer to cook meat than to give it raw. I do wholeheartedly agree with you that a cooked bone is a far more dangerous thing than anything that's given in a raw diet, but that's more because of the risk of perforation than the risk of obstruction.

The vets did clarify that it was dogs on a raw diet they were talking about. They've obviously also dealt with obstruction and perforation from cooked bones, but they were very clear that they had personal experience with dogs who needed emergency care because a raw diet.



Cody's pet said:


> I think most people opposed to raw feeding are just squamish and trying to anthromorphise their pets. They don't like thinking about the fact that their little furry cuddly-wuddly is actually a tame wolf.


I think that's a pretty unfair characterization of people who don't feed raw. I don't feed it because I believe, based on all the reliable evidence I can gather, that it isn't as healthy as feeding my dogs a good kibble and supplementing their diet with appropriate whole foods. If I thought it would be better for my dogs, I'd be throwing raw chicken frames into the blender in a heartbeat. I'm fully aware of their origins as wolves and that they're currently classed as the same species. It's important to remember, however, that they are not wolves, and that assuming their dietary needs are identical to wolves, when for tens of thousands of years they've evolved to eat human diets, is just as foolish as thinking they're cuddly wuddly kiddies in fur coats.



Cody's pet said:


> My point is that if anyone lost a dog to raw feeding they'd be on these raw food forums letting the world know about it.


Maybe you're right, but if you lived your life by what gets posted on forums vs. what doesn't, your dog would be very odd indeed. Good luck! Keep us posted.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

> I think most people opposed to raw feeding are just squamish and trying to anthromorphise their pets. They don't like thinking about the fact that their little furry cuddly-wuddly is actually a tame wolf.


My vet makes the good point that "wolves" in the "wild" who ate/eat raw/predomesticated diets have about a quarter of the life expectancy of his own lab/ beagle who eats Eukanuba Premium performance. I am open to the conversation and interested in issues about raw diets, but for now I am sticking with the vets and Tippykayak. Since I had a golden live well into his 15th year eating kibble, personal,anecdotal experience does come into play. I don't see any evidence that dogs fed raw are any more healthy or long-lived than my own goldens have been.


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## Suzie G (Jun 29, 2008)

Hi, Suzie G., Maggie (Topbrass Magnificent Maggie ) and Gus (Newf ) here

Check out 

RawFed.com

Click on the section for Myths About Raw Feeding (some very interesting info )

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53956&stc=1&d=1244473028

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53957&stc=1&d=1244473028

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53958&stc=1&d=1244473028

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53959&stc=1&d=1244473028

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53960&stc=1&d=1244473028

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53961&stc=1&d=1244473028


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

This might be a dumb question, but it is sincere. If you feed Maggie that way, how does she know to deliver ducks to hand on retrieves? She can distinguish? Just curious!


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## Suzie G (Jun 29, 2008)

Hi, Suzie G. here

We don't hunt so I can't speak personally about that.I do know a person on the rawfeeding list who feeds whole ducks and hunts with her Goldens-she says they bring all birds to hand unblemished -and that it is just a matter of proper training. She feeds all of her hunting dogs a whole prey diet.


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## Cody's pet (Jun 3, 2009)

*Geezzz*



Ljilly28 said:


> My vet makes the good point that "wolves" in the "wild" who ate/eat raw/predomesticated diets have about a quarter of the life expectancy of his own lab/ beagle who eats Eukanuba Premium performance. I am open to the conversation and interested in issues about raw diets, but for now I am sticking with the vets and Tippykayak. Since I had a golden live well into his 15th year eating kibble, personal,anecdotal experience does come into play. I don't see any evidence that dogs fed raw are any more healthy or long-lived than my own goldens have been.


:doh: Doesn't anyone make up their own minds anymore? Did you research this garbage your vet sprouted to you Ljilly28, or do you just believe everything he/she says? Beagles typically live between 12 and 15 years. Labs typically live between 10 and 12 years. Wild wolves typically live between 6 and 8 years, but wolves in captivity, eating according to the raw prey model, generally live to the age of 17 and one has even made it to 20 years. But don't take my word for it, do the research yourself - you might learn something.

If you take away the reasons why wolves die early in the wild; being killed by humans, being starved by humans, being hurt by large prey and being killed by grizzlies and other predators competing for the same food, your average wolf has a much better chance of reaching the age of 17 than your average dog. In my case the life expectancy for golden retrievers has recently been brought down to between 10 and 12 years (from 12-15 years) due to the increase in cancers in these lovely dogs. Doesn't it sound like we are doing something wrong somewhere? How come the more advanced our "scientific research" becomes the sicker we and our animals get? Why are we and our pets more obese and unhealthy than ever, despite the fact that scientist today supposedly know everything we need to know about diet and our dietary needs? Could is possibly be because we've been brainwashed into accepting what big business, with it's eyes ever so firmly on the bottom line, has sold us? If I had to choose between the advice of someone making 5 bucks a kilo out of the advice he gives me, or someone who genuinely cares about my animal and who isn't making a profit from the advice given, I can tell you I'd go for the well-meaning one every time.

I am sure that any dog can live to become a fair age on kibbles. The question here is not only _*quantity* _but also _*quality*_ of life. You too can live on meagre rations and slop, but does it allow for optimum performance? Does it allow you to be all that you can be? I think not. And if my dog is a carnivore, redesignated a "domesticated wolf" after years of painstaking research, if his physiology and his genetic history predisposes him to eating meat and bones and preferably raw meat and bones, what kind of cruelty is it to feed him a diet made up of predominantly grain, fat, added man-made vitamins and minerals and the scrap meat that humans won't touch? 

At the moment my dog eats meat that I would eat. It's frozen for a week to destroy any organisms that might exist in the tissues. It's a biologically appropriate prey-model similar to that which his wild brothers eat and I have been able to see the difference in his condition within the first week. Why in heaven's name would I settle for giving my best friend anything less, just because I can or because someone wants to make a buck out of me and I am dumb enough to allow it?


PS: Since cancer is one of the major killers of dogs in this century I think it's important to note that; typically the risk for cancer of the bone and many others increase with the size of the dog, so a lab would be a beter comparison to a wolf than a beagle which is quite a bit smaller. Beagles typically measure from >10 to 15 inches. Labs and goldens are between 21 and 24 inches. Wolves are between 26 and 38 inches. 

I haven't got back to tippykayak about her supposed "rebuttal" of all of the research linking early neutering/spaying to an increase risk of several cancers in dogs, but I will eventually get around to it. However the point here is that your vet is talking the usual nonsense and you would do well to start doing some research for yourself and reading those research papers for yourself before following his, or tippykayak's advice on anything. 

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious. ~Albert Einstein


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

> Doesn't anyone make up their own minds anymore? Did you research this garbage your vet sprouted to you Ljilly28, or do you just believe everything he/she says? But don't take my word for it, do the research yourself - you might learn something.


Whoa- easy with the tone. What are your objective credentials to be so critical of me and the decisions I make for my dogs? I have to ask myself: Do your dogs outlive mine and are they healthier? Is the quality of your research better than mine? Do you know something that my two very bright, well-educated vet friends do not? I really liked one of your early posts and left you a friendly message on your profile page to bend over backwards to make a point of view with which I disagree welcome. I did not take this tone with you.

My golden Finn's breeder feeds only raw and her dogs do have nice longevity- right exactly on par with the longevity of my dogs who eat kibble and some fresh food(cooked). 

Kibble(Eukanuba and Innova)
Buff, 15 and 2 months 
Ben 10 years 7 months 
Tobasco 14 and 4 months 
Baffin 14 and 7 months 
Acadia 9 
Joplin 15 and 5 months
Raleigh 13

There are several responsible modes/methods of feeding a dog properly. I dont look down on raw feeders, so try not to look down on kibble feeders; because of the role of genetics in GR cancer and other factors, there are more mysteries than certainties. It's easier to endorse one point of view wholesale and bet the farm on it, but it is less useful than admitting there is much we do not know for sure about cancer and the role of nutrition. Probably, some diets fit some dogs better than others. A devoted raw feeder on this forum switched his senior dog to kibble on the advice of his vet; I would switch my dog to raw on similar advice. 

Googling unsubstantiated wolf nutrition articles on the internet is not research about dog nutrition.

I have a master's degree and am not a brainwashed vet follower listening to "garbage" and not understanding what research is. My college roommate teaches at Tufts University Vet school, and my close friends Emily is a vet who went to Cornell Vet School. Emily's Bernese MT Dog lived just shy of her 16th birthday which is practically double the projected Berner lifespan. Emily has tremendous research skills and enormous research facilities at Cornell, and she obviously feeds her dogs well since they live so long. What does she feed? Eukanuba/Canidae. What does she mistrust? Fanatical raw feeders who give their dogs obstructions, exotic gastrointestinal diseases, nutritional imbalances, and broken teeth.

Does that mean I reject the experience of raw feeders. No. I am interested. But am I going to jump on the bandwagon bc of your tone or(mis) information when the brightest people in my real life, who practice veterinary medicine on a daily basis recommend strongly against raw feeding. No. They have better educations in animal health than many others, so you'll have to forgive me for being so foolish and easily lead astray. 

You must have some superlative research skills/facilities to be so much better a researcher than Tippykayak, Emily DVM, and KasieDVM.


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## Cody's pet (Jun 3, 2009)

*Causes of cancer in dogs - rebuttal*

_*Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so, too. ~Voltaire*_

Please feel free to have a look at the many studies below and make up your own mind about whether or not neutering/spaying at an early age is good for your dog. And remember that when someone tells you a specific study is not valid because it was only done on Rotweillers/Beagles or whatever, that this is tantamount to saying a study about cancer in the human body has no validity because it was done only on caucasians. We do not make this destinction for ourselves, why should we do that for dogs? If it doubles an incidence of bone cancer in a breed that has a higher tendency to that cancer, will it not proportionally also increase the risk in other breeds even if their incidence is lower?

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/11/11/1434

http://www.akcchf.org/pdfs/whitepapers/3-23-08DiscoveriesArticle.pdf

http://www.sheltervet.org/members/vtfasn/4/SummaryStudies.pdf

1​Aaron A, Eggleton K, Power C, Holt PE. Urethral sphincter mechanism incompetence in male dogs: a retrospective analysis of 54 cases. Vet Rec. 139:542-6, 1996 ​2​Arnold S. Urinary incontinence in castrated bitches. Part I. Significance, clinical aspects and etiopathogenesis. Schweiz Arch Tierheilkd 1997;139:271-276. ​3​Bell FW, Klausner JS, Hayden DW, et al. Clinical and pathologic features of prostates adenocarcinoma in sexually intact and castrated dogs: 31 cases (1970-1987). J Amer Vet Med Assoc 1991;199:1623-1630. ​4​Berry SJ, Strandberg JD, Saunders WJ, et al. Development of canine benign prostatic hyperplasia with age. Pros 1986;9:363-373. ​5​British Small Animal Veterinary Association. Sequelae of bitch sterilization: regional survey. Vet Rec 1975;96:371-372. ​6​Brodey RS, Goldschmidt MH, Roszel JR. Canine mammary gland neoplasms. J Amer Anim Hosp Assoc 1983;19:61-90. ​7​Bryan JN, Keeler MR, Henry CJ, et al. A population study of neutering status as a risk factor for canine prostate cancer. Pros 2007;67:1174-1181. ​8​Cooley DM, Beranek BC, Schlittler DL, et al. Endogenous gonadal hormone exposure and bone sarcoma risk. Canc Epidemiol Biomark Prev 2002;11:1434-1440. ​9​Cooley DM, Beranek BC, Schlittler DL, Glickman NW, Glickman LT, Waters D, Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2002 Nov;11(11):1434-40 ​10​Cowan LA, Barsanti JA, Crowell W, et al. Effects of castration on chronic bacterial prostatitis in dogs. J Amer Vet Med Assoc 1991;199:346-350. ​12​Crane SW. Occurrence and management of obesity in companion animals. J Sm Anim Prac 1991;32:275-282. ​13​Dorn CR, Taylor DON, Frye FL, et al. Survey of animal neoplasms in Alameda and Contra Costa counties, California. I. Methodology and description of cases. J Natl Canc Inst 1968;40:295-305. ​14​Duerr FM, Duncan CG, Savicky RS, et al. Risk factors for excessive tibial plateau angle in large-breed dogs with cranial cruciate ligament disease. J Amer Vet Med Assoc 2007;231:1688-1691. ​15​Duval JM, Budsberg SC, Flo GL, et al. Breed, sex, and body weight as risk factors for rupture of the cranial cruciate ligament in young dogs. J Amer Vet Med Assoc 1992;215:811-814. ​16​Edney ATB, Smith PM. Study of obesity in dogs visiting veterinary practices in the United Kingdom. Vet Rec 1986;118:391-396. ​17​Egenvall A, Hagman R, Bonnett BN, et al. Breed risk of pyometra in insured dogs in Sweden. J Vet Intern Med 2001;15:530-538. ​18​Gilsanz V, Roe TF, Gibbens DT, Schulz EE, Carlson ME, Gonzalez O, Boechat MI. Effect of sex steroids on peak bone density of growing rabbits. Am J Physiol. 1988 Oct;255(4 Pt 1):E416-21. ​19​Grumbach MM. Estrogen, bone, growth and sex: a sea change in conventional wisdom. J Pediatr Endocrinol Metab. 2000;13 Suppl 6:1439-55. ​20​Hart BL, Eckstein RA. The role of gonadal hormones in the occurrence of objectionable behaviours in dogs and cats. Appl Anim Behav Sci 1997;52:331-344. ​21​Hart BL. Effect of gonadectomy on subsequent development of age-related cognitive impairment in dogs. J Amer Vet Med Assoc 2001;219:51-56. ​22​Holt PE. Urinary incontinence in the male and female dog or does sex matter? www.vin.com. Accessed 10-01-2004. ​23​Howe LM, Slater MR, Boothe HW, et al. Long-term outcome of gonadectomy performed at an early age or traditional age in dogs. J Amer Vet Med Assoc 2001;218:217-221. ​24​Howe LM. Surgical methods of contraception and sterilization. Theriogenology 2006;66:500-509. ​25​http://www.akcchf.org/pdfs/whitepapers/Biennial_National_Parent_Club_Canine_Health_Conference.pdf​26​http://www.grca.org/healthsurvey.pdf​27​Johnston SD, Root Kustritz MV, Olson PN. Canine and feline theriogenology. Philadelphia, WB Saunders Co., 2001. ​28​Kim HH, Yeon SC, Houpt KA, et al. Effects of ovariohysterectomy on reactivity in German Shepherd Dogs. Vet J 2006;172:154-159. ​29​Kim NN, Min K, Pessina MA, Munarriz R, Goldstein I, Traish AM. Effects of ovariectomy and steroid hormones on vaginal smooth muscle contractility. Int J Impot Res. 2004 Feb;16(1):43-50. ​30​Knapp DW, Glickman NW, DeNicola DB, et al. Naturally-occurring canine transitional cell carcinoma of the urinary bladder. Urol Oncol 2000;5:47-59. ​31​Marmor M, Willeberg P, Glickman LT, et al. Epizootiologic patterns of diabetes mellitus in dogs. Amer J Vet Res 1982;43:465-470. ​33​Meuten DJ. Tumors in Domestic Animals. 4th Edn. Iowa State Press, Blackwell Publishing Company, Ames, Iowa, p. 575 ​34​Michell AR. Longevity of British breeds of dog and its relationship with sex, size, cardiovascular variables and disease. Vet Rec 1999;145:625-629. ​35​Milne KL, Hayes HM. Epidemiological features of canine hypothyroidism. Cornell Vet 1981;71:3-14. ​36​Misdorp W, Hart AAM. Canine mammary cancer. II. Therapy and causes of death. J Sm Anim Prac 1979;20:395-404. ​37​Moore GE, Burkman KD, Carter MN, et al. Causes of death or reasons for euthanasia in military working dogs: 927 cases (1993-1996). J Amer Vet Med Assoc 2001;219:209-214. ​38​Nielsen JC, Eckstein RA, Hart BL. Effects of castration on problem behaviors in male dogs with reference to age and duration of behavior. J Amer Vet Med Assoc 1997;211:180-182. ​39​Niskanen M, Thrusfield MV. Associations between age, parity, hormonal therapy and breed, and pyometra in Finnish dogs. Vet Rec 1998;143:493-498. ​40​Norris AM, Laing EJ, Valli VEO, et al. Canine bladder and urethral tumors: a retrospective study of 115 cases (1980-1985). J Vet Intern Med 1992;6:145-153. ​41​Obradovich J, Walshaw R, Goullaud E. The influence of castration on the development of prostatic carcinoma in the dog. 43 cases (1978-1985). J Vet Intern Med 1987 Oct-Dec;1(4):183-7 ​42​Panciera DL. Hypothyroidism in dogs: 66 cases (1987-1992). J Amer Vet Med Assoc 1994;204:761-767.​43​Pessina MA, Hoyt RF Jr, Goldstein I, Traish AM. Differential effects of estradiol, progesterone, and testosterone on vaginal structural integrity. Endocrinology. 2006 Jan;147(1):61-9. ​44​Ru G, Terracini B, Glickman LT. Host related risk factors for canine osteosarcoma. Vet J. 1998 Jul;156(1):31-9. ​45​Salmeri KR, Bloomberg MS, Scruggs SL, Shille V.. Gonadectomy in immature dogs: effects on skeletal, physical, and behavioral development. JAVMA 1991;198:1193-1203 ​46​Slauterbeck JR, Pankratz K, Xu KT, Bozeman SC, Hardy DM. Canine ovariohysterectomy and orchiectomy increases the prevalence of ACL injury. Clin Orthop Relat Res. 2004 Dec;(429):301-5. ​47​Spain CV, Scarlett JM, Houpt KA. Long-term risks and benefits of early-age gonadectomy in dogs. JAVMA 2004;224:380-387. ​48​Stocklin-Gautschi NM, Hassig M, Reichler IM, Hubler M, Arnold S. The relationship of urinary incontinence to early spaying in bitches. J. Reprod. Fertil. Suppl. 57:233-6, 2001 ​49​Ware WA, Hopper DL. Cardiac tumors in dogs: 1982-1995. J Vet Intern Med 1999 Mar-Apr;13(2):95-103 ​


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Cody's pet said:


> :doh: Doesn't anyone make up their own minds anymore? Did you research this garbage your vet sprouted to you Ljilly28, or do you just believe everything he/she says?


I frankly think your tone here is obnoxious. Jill was nothing but polite to you and respectful of your views, and you've launched back a fairly bitter, personal attack. Jill is a highly intelligent person, an experienced dog trainer, and a skilled scholar. Painting her as some kind of moronic sheep is unfair and unkind in the extreme. Perhaps you didn't mean to come off so poorly; if so, you owe her an apology. If you, in fact, intend to be so unpleasant and dismissive, then this is my last post in response to you.



Cody's pet said:


> It's frozen for a week to destroy any organisms that might exist in the tissues.


This comment alone undermines any possibility that you understand even the most basic epidemiological science. None of the truly dangerous pathogens, other than a few kinds of parasites, is killed by freezing. Even salmonella, which is particularly sensitive to freezing in water, is more likely to survive when in contact with protein, and any salmonella you happen to kill with the freezing will have an opportunity to regrow during the thaw.




Cody's pet said:


> I haven't got back to tippykayak about her supposed "rebuttal" of all of the research linking early neutering/spaying to an increase risk of several cancers in dogs, but I will eventually get around to it. However the point here is that your vet is talking the usual nonsense and you would do well to start doing some research for yourself and reading those research papers for yourself before following his, or tippykayak's advice on anything.


I'm not sure why something is automatically nonsense because a vet says it. I understand that feeding raw involves rejecting the bulk of the veterinary establishment, but when you bring your dog in for treatment for an emergency, I'm sure you take your vet's advice a lot more seriously than you appear to do so here.

The paper in question rebuts simply the article you posted from caninesports.com, not the whole concept of early vs. late altering of dogs. It does, in fact, appear that altering dogs increases the risk of osteosarcoma, but the point I was making is that the evidence is not at all clear that neutering at six months increases the risk any more than neutering at two years does.

And your comment about reading research papers yourself is well-taken. I strongly suggest you get into the actual papers rather than sites like rawfed.com or caninesports.com that support a foregone conclusion. The issue is much more complicated than you want to make it. Your responses seem exasperated, as if you can't figure out why we're such idiots for not feeding the way you do. I tried to give you a reasoned, respectful response that indicated I understand why you do feed raw but I choose not to. If you think I'm as much of a fool as your writing seems to indicate, I strongly suggest you give up on me.

If, however, you'd like to continue sharing perspectives and discussing the emerging research, I'm right here. Like I said, I'll happily eat my hat and every word of this thread if the research really does begin to support these claims about wolf digestion, wheat as the cause of bone cancer, and the other suppositions that underlie the arguments you've made here.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Cody's pet said:


> And remember that when someone tells you a specific study is not valid because it was only done on Rotweillers/Beagles or whatever, that this is tantamount to saying a study about cancer in the human body has no validity because it was done only on caucasians.


Well, you're oversimplifying the causes of cancer again, but you're essentially right. There are some cancers that only apply to certain genetic groups within the species, but when it comes to bone cancer, all of our dogs are affected, with Rotties and some other large dogs disproportionately hit.




Cody's pet said:


> http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/11/11/1434


From this article's abstract: "Male and female dogs that underwent gonadectomy before 1 year of age had an approximate one in four lifetime risk for bone sarcoma and were significantly more likely to develop bone sarcoma than dogs that were sexually intact..."

This article doesn't say anything meaningful about _early_ neutering. It studies the difference between intact dogs and dogs neutered before 1 year. As it says, it's looking at the link between bone cancer and "lifetime gonadal hormone exposure." The key word here is "lifetime;" the study provides no relevant information about early vs. late neutering. Its conclusion is that there's a meaningful connection between neutering and bone cancer that requires further study. You've made exactly the same mistake as the author of "Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete."




Cody's pet said:


> http://www.akcchf.org/pdfs/whitepapers/3-23-08DiscoveriesArticle.pdf


I've read this article before, and I found it very balanced. It should be required reading for dog owners, since we all have to confront the question of neutering at some point. I'm not sure why you've listed it here as it supports none of the points you've made about early neutering. Just as a highlight, though: "Several studies have demonstrated that spayed and castrated female and male dogs live longer than do intact bitches or dogs. Cause-and-effect has not been described."



Cody's pet said:


> http://www.sheltervet.org/members/vtfasn/4/SummaryStudies.pdf


Not sure why you included this one. I did make the point of reading the whole thing, but it's kind of an odd cross-section of spay/neuter studies in cats and dogs.


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## Cody's pet (Jun 3, 2009)

Ljilly28 I'm sorry about the tone, I apologize for being abrupt but I am a facts kind of person. I'm someone who, before making up my mind, likes to do a LOT of research and hear a lot of different opinions from people who have actually given the topic more than an interested thought. Preferably people who actually practice what they preach or have tried something sensibly and rejected it for valid reasons. I don't like people to be biased either way so fanatics at either end don't appeal to me, but give me research combined with personal experience if you want to tell me I am putting my dog's life at risk; _never-ever_ tell me someone told you so. Especially not if that someone has a vested interest in the advice they give or is part of an establishment that is majorly funded by a party with a vested interest. Big-Business money and science shouldn't mix. 

I don't very much like getting into a one-upmanship contest with anyone about credentials, but since you ask, here are mine. I spent eight years of my life working as a veterinary assistant in a remote farming community. I was also the local RSPCA inspector for the region and a liaison for the People's Dispensary for Sick Animals. I helped the PDSA set up mobile clinics for people who lived far from proper vets and/or who could not afford the services of such, whilst assisting our state vet in his clinics and rounds. I have great respect for several vets that I have had the pleasure of meeting in my life, but they deserved it and were savvy individuals who didn't follow the herd just because it looked like that was the way to go. Jan made my day when he kicked out a rep who was pushing a new drug that had shown some nasty side-effects. He never felt it was ok to use anything on an animal that he would not be willing to use on a human, and it was one of his biggest gripes that medicine for animals wasn't being tested nearly as vigorously as that for humans.

I am now a research assistant, miles away from that lovely life, but still a facts person. I don't just look at the data presented, but also at who has paid for the research to be done and how the evidence is presented.

I come from a family of dog breeders and lovers. My mother was a passionate Dalmatian fan and me; I love Goldens. I bred and worked Golden Retrievers for many years (until my lifestyle became too busy for it with a husband and family, work and the like). Most of my dogs lived well into their teens; in fact I was shocked to see vets now consider 12 year old dogs to be old! I also had numerous mutts around, all of them much-loved. I could never put a dog down, so if I could not re-home them after rescuing them they stayed with me ( I was often glad I worked for a vet as they would have made me broke otherwise ;0). Despite many of them starting life out in bad circumstances I have only lost one dog at an early age and he was a lovely Lab X who had an inordinate fondness for hunting snakes. He was 10 and in the prime of his life when he was bitten in the face by a cobra on our farm. 

Six years ago, when I only had Donna left, I decided to move to another country when she'd passed on. I would not put her though months of quarantine at her age. She was 15 years and 8 months old when she passed away quietly one night. She was a bit grey around the muzzle and a bit stiff in the mornings, but still game for a cuddle and a belly rub. It took me a while to get over the loss of that dear soul, but I finally got another golden retriever puppy to light up my days. I also have a Manx who is a bit put out about the puppy, but he'd better get used to it, because the only thing I like better than one dog is two or more:0)

Meanwhile I don't believe in sticking with something just because it seems to work. I like to live well and eat real food and it has always been bothering me that I was feeding my dogs something that was, in essence, manufactured. I've been doing a lot of research since the latest study on the scant differences between wolf and dog mDNA was revealed and I have been watching the growing raw feed movement with interest. My dogs always had raw food, but I also gave them Eukanuba or Hills and I always wondered a bit about them being classed as "omnivores" when their whole physical make-up was so very much carnivore. 

Tippykyak I quote; "_If you, in fact, intend to be so unpleasant and dismissive, then this is my last post in response to you." _- please* do* stop responding to me as I don't think you have any opinion that I care to hear. Your biases are very plain and I for one don't care for them. FYI I posted various opinions and viewpoints about cancer research so that people could make up their _own_ minds about it from the various studies. All of these studies were, in my opinion, well-conducted and with minimal bias, so I listed them all here. Your attempts to re-interpret the studies according to your own biases will hopefully not prevent people who really want the details from looking at the studies for themselves. Considering the combined facts of these studies and the very real reality of a growing incidence of cancer in my favourite breed I have, personally, decided to hold off on the neutering of my lovely boy until he's fully grown and sexually mature. 

However we all have a responsibility to do the best for and make the best decisions for our own families (canine, feline & human) and so we should all research dilligently before making up our own minds about where we stand on things.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Cody's pet said:


> Tippykyak I quote; "_If you, in fact, intend to be so unpleasant and dismissive, then this is my last post in response to you." _- please* do* stop responding to me as I don't think you have any opinion that I care to hear. Your biases are very plain and I for one don't care for them.


Well, exactly. You're claiming to be interested in gathering information and making an informed decision when in fact what you're actually doing is dismissing views that don't conform to yours as "bias." I've read every word of the research you've posted because I was hoping to genuinely engage with you on the subject of raw vs. kibble feeding, but apparently my willingness to actually go through your opinions and the studies you've posted and dissect their methodologies and conclusions is problematic to you.

Neither of us mince words, and aside from what I regard as an unkind tone to my old friend LJilly and some accusations that I was somehow squeamish, I find you to be an interesting and articulate person completely worth discussing this issue with. If you're really convinced I'm just a dunderheaded shill for the dog food conglomerates, tune me out. If, however, there's a way I can engage with you more palatably in order to continue a healthy discussion, let me know and I'll do my best.

For the record, I have _no_ bias on this subject. I've lost two dogs in their prime to cancer, and I'm desperately seeking ways I can minimize or eliminate the chances of that ever happening again. I feed what I do because I believe it is the best for my dogs. I have iterated again and again that I will switch to raw at the drop of a hat when the evidence is there. That's not an empty claim.

By the way, you keep mentioning mDNA and wolves. Do you mean mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA)? I would sincerely love to see any info you have on that as I'm rather interested in the origin of domesticated dogs, both as a historical issue and a biological one.


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## Cody's pet (Jun 3, 2009)

Drat typos! Indeed it is mitochondrial DNA. Good Guess 

RK Wayne & C Vilà's work is probably some of the best work done on comparative studies that link dogs and wolves. Below are some of their studies and others that might be of interest to those wanting to know more about this topic.

RK Wayne, EA Ostrander, "Origin, genetic diversity, and genome structure of the domestic dog." 

F Verginelli, C Capelli, V Coia, M Musiani, M Falchetti, L Ottini, R Palmirotta, A Tagliacozzo, Ide Mazzorin, R Mariani-Costantini, "The origins of dogs: archaeozoology, genetics, and ancient DNA" 

C Vilà, P Savolainen, JE Maldonado, IR Amorim, JE Rice, RL Honeycutt, KA Crandall, J Lundeberg, RK Wayne, "Multiple and ancient origins of the domestic dog" 

JA Leonard, RK Wayne, J Wheeler, R Valadez, S Guillén, C Vilà, "Ancient DNA evidence for Old World origin of New World dogs."

K Tsuda, Y Kikkawa, H Yonekawa, Y Tanabe, "Extensive interbreeding occurred among multiple matriarchal ancestors during the domestica" 

U Arnason, A Gullberg, A Janke, M Kullberg, "Mitogenomic analyses of caniform relationships" 

Just to be clear I never said a grain-based diet in dogs causes cancer. Although high-carb diets have been linked to breast cancer in women in some studies, no direct correlation between carbs/grains and cancer has been proven for humans or animals. I simply suggested to someone who seemed to think there was a link to diet that early desexing is a more likely culprit for the explosion in canine cancers than diet. However there are many studies that prove that foods high in carbs and sugar encourage the growth of existing tumors and these give food for thought.

Personally I never liked the idea of giving my dog a dead meal. Food cooked to destruction, processed, re-injected with vitamins & minerals (according to whatever the newest fad reckons is healthy), dried to biscuits and sprayed with fats and flavour enhancers to make them palatable to my dogs really never excited me (or them) all that much. Real food is sooooo much better!

There are many studies about raw food & commercial food, pros and cons, but here are a few things I'd like to share.

Re freezing meat to kill bacteria

Aize Kijlstraa, Erik Jongert in their 2008 study, "Control of the risk of human toxoplasmosis transmitted by meat" suggest the following; "_Alternatively, Toxoplasma safe meat can be obtained through simple post-harvest decontamination procedures, whereby freezing the meat may currently be the best option, although new technologies using irradiation or high-pressure treatment may offer promising alternatives._" 

The organisms that don’t die during the big freeze and which are of most concern during a thaw are E.coli, which is not affected by freezing and Salmonella, which is only partially affected by freezing.

E. coli is a common bacterium that lives in the lower gastrointestinal tract of all warm-blooded mammals and humans. E.coli is a member of the normal flora of the intestines and most E.coli is innocuous. Salmonella also lives in the intestinal track of humans and other animals, including birds. Both of these can also be found in soil and water.

Salmonella and E.coli are usually transmitted by eating foods contaminated with animal feces. Salmonella and E.coli present on raw meat and poultry could survive if the product is not cooked to a safe minimum internal temperature, as measured with a food thermometer. Luckily most of our meat doesn't contain the heaps of fecal matter that scare-mongers would have us believe - otherwise those of us who love a raw steak would all be history by now. These and other micro-organisms are also found on fruit and vegetables, so a bit of common sense is indicated here.

These two organisms are the two that tend to strike fear into people and both have various strains of which most are not harmful to their host unless that host is ill or very young or old. They are basically opportunistic organisms. 

E.coli & Salmonella rarely causes illness in healthy dogs due to their robust digestive systems, however they do pass many of these organisms in their stools and raw feeders should be mindful of this.

(Daniel J. Joffe and Daniel P. Schlesinger, "Preliminary assessment of the risk of _Salmonella_ infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets")

The best way of dealing with this is to firstly ensure your meat is bought from a reputable source that follows proper hygiene and slaughter protocols as this is where initial contamination occurs. Thereafter it is important to keep the meat as cold as possible to prevent opportunity for organism growth. Proper hygiene should be observed when handling raw meat and food should not be left at room temperature for extended periods. Dog bowls and utensils used during the preparation of raw meat should always be cleaned properly. To prevent environmental contamination stools should be removed promptly and discarded away from waterways and run-off areas. 

Then there is the "nutrition" angle. The study below dispels the notion that dogs fed by normal everyday people are worse off than those fed by nutritionists and big corporations. As does blood tests done by vets who treat raw-fed dogs. My vet did a base-line blood evaluation of my dog when he was a pup and followed this up with another one recently and they were both perfectly normal.

I know that my vet asserts that the only difference he sometimes finds between the blood works for a commercially fed dog and a raw fed dog is a slight increase in the blood urea nitrogen (BUN) or creatinine values (understandable since this diet is almost all protein), but it’s all still within normal limits.

Erin L. Streiff, Bettina Zwischenberger, Richard F. Butterwick, Elisabeth Wagner, Christine Iben and John E. Bauer ,"A Comparison of the Nutritional Adequacy of Home-Prepared and Commercial Diets for Dogs"

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/short/132/6/1698S 

I don't even want to start on all the stuff about bones since we know accidents happen sometimes, but we also know (and even vets acknowledge this) that there is such a thing as an "appropriate bone" to give a dog. We are all smart enough not to feed sharp, cut, or broken bones, not to cook the bones, not to leave them to rot in the sun and not to leave our dog alone with a bone that might be shattered by him/her or that might choke them. Furthermore we all also know that the thing that perforates that dogs’ gut or chokes him could be a toy, a ball, a piece of wood he’s chewed off the table leg or a myriad of other things which we try to prevent as best we can. And that’s all we can do…...try our best.

*"I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught." Winston Churchill*


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## Cody's pet (Jun 3, 2009)

*Commercial Pet Food*

PS: A good book to read for proponents of commercial kibble is Ann N.Martin's book, *Food Pets Die for: Shocking Facts about Pet Food :yuck:*

You might also check this out to find out how those "nutritionists" fugure out what to put into their kibble. It makes for nightmare reading and even thought this "reputable" company has been busted, don't think for a moment others aren't using their research or conducting similar research as they try to find out how much rubbish they can feed our dogs and still get away with it.

http://www.uncaged.co.uk/iams01.htm


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Cody's pet said:


> PS: A good book to read for proponents of commercial kibble is Ann N.Martin's book, *Food Pets Die for: Shocking Facts about Pet Food :yuck:*


I have read this book as well, and can only strongly agree that everyone with pets really needs to read this book and consider the issues that Ann N Martin discusses. They are very important issues across many levels.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Goldilocks said:


> Stephanie, do you make your own raw mixture or do you buy prepackaged raw? If you are making it yourself, what type of grinder to you have for the bones?
> 
> I have fed raw in the past but it's been prepackaged raw or Urban Wolf which is a balanced pre-mix to which you add ground beef, eggs, oils & water. Pippa is a pig and I am worried she would try to swallow chicken or turkey bones whole.


Sorry - I missed this for a while.

I feed a mix that the local butcher makes himself. It's mostly ground chicken backs and necks w/ veg mixed in. They eat that maybe 4 days a week. The other days, they get differnet meats w/ veg and/or an organ meat mixture.


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## Cody's pet (Jun 3, 2009)

*Canid Genetics*

*Quiz is gorgeous. How did you choose his name?*

*More Canid Genetics - include reviews of some previously mentioned papers by Robert K. Wayne*

http://www.fiu.edu/~milesk/Genetics.htm


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