# Standing over Dogs and People



## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

I'm not sure either. I have a couple of dogs that do this also. Check out the pictures in this thread: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=80905


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

At his age, I would not worry too much but I would discuss with your trainer if it keeps happening as he ages.


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

I have one that does it too. The picture of Caue is very familiar. My other dogs tolerate it, so we haven't made a huge deal of it. Usually if we tell him to stop he will. I won't let him do it to people. 

I'd talk to your trainer and see what they say. I never did anything about it and he's two and still does it. It's mostly to my other dogs and I don't see him try often with other dogs. I probably should have done something more about it, but he's not an over-dominant dog and it hasn't led to other behavior issues...


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

Jona does the same thing. Well he hasn't so much done it with dogs because no dog will be submissive with him, they will always fight him back. But yeah when I lay down on the floor he will quickly stop what he is doing and get on top of me and just like look down on me. Sometimes too when I'm just sitting on the ground he will try to climb ontop of my shoulder. his first day of puppy class all he did was mount puppies and hump them, at the end of the session he was playing a little more, still getting into some fights but not nearly as many as the first day.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Just came back from the first day of puppy kindergarten and talking to the trainer about Cosmo's behaviour.

From the start it was very clear that our little guy (although younger than all the other puppies there) was going to be in charge. He walked into the room and pretty much split the waters - all the other puppies smelled him and then quickly moved off and played. Cosmo just wandered the premises, picked up toys and laid down in the middle of the room with a toy he found. Only after 15 minutes did he really engage with any of the puppies. He never has any problems as long as they respect him and let him silently rule the roost. People say he is a very calm puppy, very in control of his emotions. The trainer reads this as him being in charge.

The trainer also thinks that his standing over dogs and people is clearly a dominance behaviour and from what she could see of Cosmo just in the initial minutes was that he is a "dominant" dog. She'll be working with us to channel this into positive behaviours down the road. 

When we selected our breeder we asked for the calmest, gentlest and most loving puppy of the litter. She picked Cosmo for us because he was so calm and let the other puppies be (and they let him be). Our trainer tells us that the puppy that is the calmest and is left alone by the other puppies is usually the leader of the pack, apparently this was Cosmo.

Cosmo is also still quite possessive so our trainer is doing weekly follow ups with us to work on this issue.


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## sharlin (Feb 26, 2007)

While I strongly believe in Alpha, Beta, and Omega roles with dogs and how they attain whatever status they do, one of the best things I read about behavior talked about the fear & aggression factor instead. All animals (especially predators) have differing degrees of fear & aggression. The worst case would be very low fear coupled with high aggression = they wouldn't be afraid of anything and would strike without warning. The other side of the spectrum would be high fear & low aggression = they'd constantly be on the run. The perfect blend being medium fear levels with low aggression. They need to be a little fearful of things so they don't get hurt, but, not afraid to explore their world.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I would find another trainer if she was saying that behavior was "Dominant"... it's not really in line with what the vets who specialize in behavior are currently going with:

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf

Standing over other dogs and NOT seeing role reversals is a sign that a dog/puppy isn't exhibiting normal/good play behavior... A dog without a lot of "appeasement behavior" or that doesn't use "distance increasing behaviors" is one that's needing some extra help to learn appropriate behaviors. This type of dog is more likely to be in dog-dog conflicts because s/he won't be as likely to respond to the signals given by other dogs.

If I had a puppy displaying this behavior often, I would be sure to call away when the behavior appeared. I would set the puppy/dog up to play with adult dogs who have -very- good play skills. I would also set up dog-dog interactions where everyone is walking/hiking or we're using toys and moving people to help keep the dogs moving rather than humans standing around and expecting the dogs to play on their own.

With people, again, I would help set the puppy up for success. If I was on the floor I would be helping the puppy to engage in appropriate behaviors. A kong or chew right there. Or we would be doing training. And use a high rate of reinforcement. I would teach "human on the floor" to mean eithee like on the floor or on my lap or on a mat.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Interestingly, when we're outside our older girl Busson totally takes charge of him, absolutely. She has excellent play behaviours outside the house. There is lots of role reversal (mostly her on top though) when they're outside. Same goes with any other confident large adult dogs outside. Cosmo respects them and all is well.

When we're inside though Cosmo takes charge of Busson or when there is a small dog showing submission outside. Puppy school was inside and none of the puppies were very large or overly confident. 

Busson is being re-homed on Monday and will no longer live with us. We're hoping that once his inappropriate behaviour with her inside is forgotten that he will no longer have a habit of playing inappropriately at all, even with little dogs showing submission.


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## marieb (Mar 24, 2008)

RedDogs said:


> Standing over other dogs and NOT seeing role reversals is a sign that a dog/puppy isn't exhibiting normal/good play behavior... A dog without a lot of "appeasement behavior" or that doesn't use "distance increasing behaviors" is one that's needing some extra help to learn appropriate behaviors. This type of dog is more likely to be in dog-dog conflicts because s/he won't be as likely to respond to the signals given by other dogs.


This is interesting, what do you mean by this? Maddie stands over my parent's dog and he just tolerates her. I don't think she's doing it as dominant behavior because she's more submissive. She also tries to position her body near people's feet if they are sitting in a reclining chair or even if their feet are hanging off the couch. 

Ok this is kinda OT but here's an example: If she gets a treat that she really likes she doesn't want to eat it right away. She'll take it to her bed and lick it and slowly eat it. While that doesn't work out with my parent's dog who eats his cookie in 2 seconds and then he goes to her and starts jumping, pawing at her face, and trying to eat the cookie out of her mouth! I've tried redirecting him but he's persistent and she has never warned him in any way (growling, etc) which I think would actually be good because it would tell him to back off ...


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

"Standing over" comes up, esp with puppies, as part of play. It can be problematic for the puppy on top and the one underneath. I watched in a puppy class today as this happened with a pair... They were both having a good time, but the one puppy would get on her back and just didn't know what to do next. We would call the puppy on top away and soon the underneath puppy was able to figure out how to get up and resume play.

"Good play" typically has lots of role reversals...one dog chases and then the other chases, one is on top, then the other....etc... but the "standing over" tends to be more one sided.

My young dog will stand over other dogs if he's trying to solicit play... He knows that if that doesn't work he should try other tactics, but if that's all he tried and he got "stuck" repeating the behavior, we'd need to address the issue and teach him a wider variety of play solicitation behaviors.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Interesting to read about this. Ranger's usual play buddy Blue has much more submissive personality than Ranger. Between the two, Ranger is the alpha yet when they play, Blue is the one standing over Ranger as Ranger WILLINGLY flops to the ground and has since Blue was a 20 lb puppy. The picture below is a common occurence during their play time. 80% of the time Blue is standing over Ranger, the other 20% Ranger has made Blue drop to the ground (all in play, of course). What's your take on that scenario happening?


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

So let's say I'm outside and Cosmo is playing with little Charlie (a small terrier puppy who lacks confidence) and stands on him repeatedly. What do I actually do? 

Last time I went over to them and playfully pushed Cosmo on this side. They then started playing more normally and when Cosmo went on top again I just pushed him over again. Little Charlie started getting a lot more confidence and they were playing normally after that.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Ranger: Role reversals are great! It doesn't always have to be 50/50... there are differences in individuals and types of play and play history and dog history... 

Jackie: I would call away more often to begin with, and reinforce each dog for coming. If there is a lot of standing and the underneath dog isn't ever able to figure out how to get up... call away sooner with both dogs. 

But others would handle it differently...and exactly what i do depends on the setting. I've not been teaching puppy class or playgroups, I mostly have only run playgroups at times when owners aren't present (boarding kennel) or on my own (at the shelter with those dogs). I suppose I really need to get better at describing some of the things we look for with our good play and not so good play.


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