# Any opinions on Nutrisource?



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

With the concerns in diet related DCM in goldens (and other breeds) there is a new standard and only 5 brands (so far) are willing to comply with this WSAVA guidelines.
Royal Canin
Iams
Eukanuba
ProPlan
Science Diet

So you might limit your selections to one of these brands and of course avoid "grain free" foods altogether.


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## tuckerthegolden (Nov 23, 2019)

That’s why we’ve had him on PPP but Nutrisource does offer a grain version of their food. Nutrisource was mentioned by the FDA in their recent reports but they also have a lot of grain-free versions as well. Tough to decide because ingredient wise Nutrisource is better than PPP.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Personal take is the FDA report on brands was misleading. 

You are not limited to 5 brands of food.

Especially since all except Eukanuba have had reported DCM issues. And then Science Diet has had very serious issues unrelated to DCM. 

Additionally - FDA listed BRANDS as opposed to formulas - which was lazy and misleading. A very few brands had a notable number of complaints concerning very specific formulas. I went through the bother (took me hours) reading through the list of complaints and keypunching the data into a spreadsheet that could be sorted. So I have the list of formulas... on my other computer so I don't immediately have access to the list of complaints so I could see which Nutrisource formulas were mentioned in the complaints. 

Personally speaking I'm not a fan of Nutrisource just because they changed formulas a couple years ago. I had been feeding the regular chicken and rice adult kibble... and found that my dogs were more finicky about eating it and I wasn't thrilled with their coats while eating it. 

There's lots of other brands out there.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

The WSAVA group is very into the science of the DCM problem. FDA is really outdated from what I've read. The WSAVA is about wanting dog food companies to have veterinary / nutritionist on staff to oversee the formulas & processing. Sadly only these 5 brands have the science / nutrition behind their products. You can learn so much from the WSAVA.org (or maybe .com) to read about the science of it all. It so much more than no grains or peas & potatoes in the mix. None of the other companies actually have the vet/nutro reviewing their formulas.

We don't have a heart issue with my girls and heart test look good but certainly willing to trust the experts vs the labels intended to sell the product. Not right that you can't read a label and think you are getting a good product. Sadly reading labels is like trusting a website. Don't believe everything you read. Up to you... as much as I've never been a fan of any of these brands, they are the only ones with true science & expert nutrition behind them. After spending hours on their sight I realized how little I really knew about nutrition & labels.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

puddles everywhere said:


> Sadly only these 5 brands have the science / nutrition behind their products. You can learn so much from the WSAVA.org (or maybe .com) to read about the science of it all. It so much more than no grains or peas & potatoes in the mix. None of the other companies actually have the vet/nutro reviewing their formulas.


And all 5 brands except Eukanuba had complaints concerning DCM.

Likewise brands like Science Diet have had serious problems separate from DCM.

AND... a number of the brands which FDA listed have a veterinary nutritionist on staff and they adhere closely to nutritional guidelines.

One that I read a statement from a while back was Zignature. They had a high number of complaints concerning their Kangaroo formula. They have veterinarians, veterinary nutritionists, and veterinary research scientists developing their formulas. <= And zignature, fwiw, is one of those that I think have a serious problem based on the high number of complaints listing that one formula.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Thanks Megora..... LOL I tried to discuss with people on the taurine/dcm site and was really shocked on how narrow minded their opinions were. All I was trying to do was discuss if anyone had ever reviewed or used it (I was looking for a new food) and it's like they were blindly following a report even if the brand I was asking about wasn't ever reviewed. To them if it wasn't on the list it wasn't worth discussing.
I'm ok that it was not on the magic 5 list but it would appear no one has even considered or evaluated this particular brand  So I have written both the dog food manufacturer and WSAVA to see if I can get a valid response. So far nothing. But do admit this has been an interesting adventure so far. And disappointed to learn the regulations on labels is so... misrepresented. How can you make a decision if you can't trust the labels? 
We have never fed grain free, it doesn't have peas, potatoes or exotic meat so thought we were doing ok. Wow did I get slammed!

I've never used the Nutrosourse originally asked about so can't offer anything but would be curious to know what about this food (other than friends referral) attracted you to the product. I figure more information is always better


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Oh the Taurine/DCM groups are awful.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

tuckerthegolden said:


> I have an 11 month old (very active) golden who we've had on Purina Pro Plan since we got him as a puppy. However, I've recently had a lot of people recommending a switch to NutriSource and when I compare their ingredient list it does seem like Nutrisource has a better lineup of ingredients. I know a ton of people here use Purina Pro from scanning old posts but I wanted to see if anyone had any negative thoughts on Nutrisource?


The thing with the DCM thing, is we still don't know what's going on. They suspect its a combination of ingredients in grain free food that is causing an inability to absorb taurine. They're suspecting legumes, potatoes, etc.

Furthermore, if I recall correctly, it was not just grain free foods, but also boutique type meats? My memory is vague. I don't want anyone to feel they're limited to just the 5 foods. We feed PPP ourselves, and I wouldn't feed grain free anything right now until we know what is going on. But feeding a non-grain free diet from a good brand should be fine. I'd do personal research on the brand and see if they're confirmed cases or just REPORTED cases. Or see what steps the brands have taken to altering or otherwise defending what they feed. 

One brand I've always loved was Fromm, never their grain free versions. I had a puppy several years ago who thrived on foods like Fromm that were lower protein and grain inclusive. I believe Fromm's grain free line has multiple reported cases of DCM.


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## Sandy Mysak (Nov 18, 2019)

tuckerthegolden said:


> That’s why we’ve had him on PPP but Nutrisource does offer a grain version of their food. Nutrisource was mentioned by the FDA in their recent reports but they also have a lot of grain-free versions as well. Tough to decide because ingredient wise Nutrisource is better than PPP.


Looking at ingredients has created the problem, what appeals to us as people is not necessarily good for our dogs. Companies like Nutrisource, Signature,Fromm etc. spend megabucks on marketing, shiny bags with pretty pictures of chicken and fruits and vegetables doesn't equate to proper nutrition. You are wanting to switch from Purina Pro Plan, are you willing to take the risk of your dog beeping diagnosed with DCM. My dog ate all those different foods, grain free, grain inclusive, raw, dehydrated etc, too many brand names to remember because I got caught up in this and I mistakenly believed my dog had food allergies, turned out she just has year long environmental allergies. Now she has changes to her heart caused by these diets and also has just been diagnosed with Mitral Valve Disease .


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I was in the looking stage... exploring Newman's Own which doesn't come up on any report, it's as though no one has ever looked at them. I was told by the dcm group that the labeling was the "designer" verbiage they tell people to stay away from but no one even looked at it!

This company doesn't even have a marketing dept... for any of their products! They do zero advertising and totally non profit. According to articles on the company they have worked with vets and nutritionist & the Newman's daughter to develop the formulas. This of course could be hype and have no way to know.
They have NEVER had a recall, claim to have USA indg. from organic verified sources. Only has one variety and claims their source's are totally natural, no hormones.
I'm just trying to get some information other than what's on the bag!


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## tuckerthegolden (Nov 23, 2019)

> Sandy Mysak;7772216] Companies like Nutrisource, Signature,Fromm etc. spend megabucks on marketing, shiny bags with pretty pictures of chicken and fruits and vegetables doesn't equate to proper nutrition. You are wanting to switch from Purina Pro Plan, are you willing to take the risk of your dog beeping diagnosed with DCM.


I'm not being swayed by "megabucks" spent on advertising. In fact, if you look at Nurtisource's marketing they don't spend anywhere near what Purina does. However, if you compare ingredient by ingredient Nutrisource does beat out the Purina Pro Plan Large Breed Chicken and Rice. In fact, Nutrisource is more expensive than Purina so I kind of resent you insinuating that I'd risk my dog being diagnosed with DCM. That's why I'm posting here - to get more ideas and advice first before I make a decision. 

I originally picked Purina Pro Plan because everyone told me to (including my vet). In the (amazing and fun) chaos of having a new puppy we went with the proven methods. Now that our puppy is almost a year old we are looking at the adult food options (when it's time to switch him over so we can do a gradual adjustment) and really jumping into the research. I've spent hours and hours researching this stuff and read all the studies on DCM so thanks.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

We need to bear in mind that no dog food has been _proven _ through peer reviewed studies to _prevent _or _cause _heart disease in dogs - the FDA states in their report that they believe the issue to be multifactorial. We also need to keep in mind that there are millions of dogs on this continent eating and thriving on all kinds of dog foods, including grain inclusive, grain free, raw and home cooked diets, so to insinuate that someone is putting their dog at risk by not feeding Purina or one of the Big 5 is really uncalled for. 
There is no one dog food that works well for every dog, my dogs don't tolerate grain inclusive foods at all, and have been fed a grain free diet their whole lives, my oldest is a 12+ yr. old golden -recently vet checked and found to be healthy and doing fine, and was advised by my vet to continue to feed what he is doing well on, no need to change it. Bottom line we need to feed what ever food our dogs do thrive on, a food we are comfortable feeding, despite the fact that it may not be what the majority are feeding or what someone else thinks you should feed.

OP the only way to really know if a food is the right food for _your _dog is to give it a trial run and see how it works for him. Trust your gut, if you feel that NutriSource may be a better quality food for your pup than what you are currently feeding, there is no harm seeing if it will work for him.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Tucker I'm with you... trying to get information on food is hard! FWIW I went with a SWAVA approved Iams adult, large breed chicken & rice. But still trying to learn and if someone has a secret on where to look for info I wish they would share.

I've never been a fan of Iams but must admit my girls loved the food and the larger kibble. Not that the pups (16 months) had bad poops but they were softer than the older girl (3) and the Iams tightened them up immediately. 
So for me, I will stay with what is working until I can find a reliable source for food information. LOL FWIW it's extremely inexpensive


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Charliethree said:


> so to insinuate that someone is putting their dog at risk by not feeding Purina or one of the Big 5 is really uncalled for.
> There is no one dog food that works well for every dog



Thank you for the common sense! 

People have to be more pragmatic and sensible. It will keep you from flying off the handle every time somebody says boo! 

I've fed Nutro brand kibble since way back in the 90's. I was feeding the food during the 2000's when you had everyone saying the food was poisoning dogs. And at the time any health issue that dogs had - were blamed on the food. These were hereditary, condition, or age related problems. <= That's probably the hugest reason why I'm not jumping on the bandwagon here. I think there's some serious cases and problems with DCM, but I also think the FDA's process of collecting complaints and reaching conclusion based only on unproven and many cases unprovable complaints is bad science! 

For that matter - any food at all will have a list of complaints because people feel like they can control what they feed the dogs. You can't control genetics or age with the dogs. Likewise, you can't control the environment where you live. 

Just drinking water is scary. You have two options - give your dogs water from the sink and know there's all kinds of bad things in the water. Especially if you are like me and have well-water. But even people with city water have chemicals added to the water + the water is tainted with whatever is getting flushed into the system. You can give bottled water (which I do), but that comes in plastic containers which probably are leaching bad things into that water. 


Anyway. 

People weren't just feeding grain free as a fad. There were dogs thriving on that food. 

Me personally - I couldn't feed my dogs that because I thought coats and healthy fat levels suffered when people fed the stuff. But I did know of people who were able to calm down sensitive gut issues by feeding certain grain free kibbles.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I just hope the people that have the ability... find what and/or if there is a diet relationship to the DCM issue! And really grateful people that can make a difference are looking. I'm still trying to figure out what the current WSAVA criteria is other than grain, potatoes, peas, legumes & wanting dog food companies to have vet / nutrition qualified on staff. What put the 5 brands on the accepted list? The taurine / WSAVA FB page slammed me for asking questions and that's ok but certainly didn't help find answers. I'm not really good at following the herd just because. 

I just heard back from Newman's and if part of the WSAVA.org criteria is having a vet on staff... well I was told that Dr Phil Brown, their vet / nutritionist on staff would respond to my inquiry directly. Sounds pretty honest and transparent to me so far! I'll let you know more info as I get it. WSAVA has yet to respond.

I'm not advocating everyone switch to Newman's own... they only have one dry dog food choice (chicken & rice) so pretty sure it's not for everyone. I just wanted more info. Truth is it's twice as expensive as the Iams but if it's better quality food, I want to know.


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## Sandy Mysak (Nov 18, 2019)

The criteria for the Guidelines are food being manufactured in house so there is quality control, feeding trials, digestibility trials long term, so that formula's just don't meet a nutrient standard on paper. Full time veterinary nutritionist, scientist, toxicologist on staff, not just a nutritionist who consults or is part time; peer reviewed research and published research. The 5 Brands that meet those guidelines have the science and feeding trials etc. Some dog food manufacturers will meet some of the criteria, bottom line is they don't put the money and time into doing this and this is their choice. Its not just about those ingredients mentioned, or exotic proteins or grain free, or grain inclusive as much as it is about formulation.So those manufacturers that don't meet the guidelines add extra taurine but dogs still are being diagnosed with DCM and normal taurine levels. I have 3 dogs eating RC and 2 dogs eating Iams. My dogs heart was affected by eating all those other foods and she also has been diagnosed with mitral valve disease.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Sandy I'm so sorry about your pups and hope things improve. And thanks for some clarification on the criteria for the SWAVA. I hope they figure all this out soon :-(


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## 206076 (Oct 30, 2019)

I personally believe that the dog food industry(with the exception of a few companies)has been so focused on grain free foods and that's why we are where we are. It is a bit like a square peg into a round hole situation. Instead of dog food companies actually figuring out what is best for dogs they started from a place of concluding that grains are bad and then worked backwords from there. A good question to ask yourself is if you put your dog in the middle of a field of lentils/pulses what are the chances they would start eating it?


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

You can make that statement for every dog food. Foods don't eat rice, soy, wheat, corn, potatoes. The point is cats are true carnivores, dogs are true omnivores. They do best with anywhere from 10-25% vegetation in their diet. Plus dogs will eat grass and other things that help their digestion.


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## 206076 (Oct 30, 2019)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> You can make that statement for every dog food. Foods don't eat rice, soy, wheat, corn, potatoes. The point is cats are true carnivores, dogs are true omnivores. They do best with anywhere from 10-25% vegetation in their diet. Plus dogs will eat grass and other things that help their digestion.


I see your point and I guess I should have qualified my statement. In the wild a pack of dogs would typically eat the contents of a animals stomach after they kill it and there would often times be grains from grass etc in it depending on where the animal has been. A wild boar would more than likely have corn in its gut if it had been roaming in a area with corn fields. I am not sure when a dog would have encountered pulses until they started getting added to food a few decades ago so from a digestable standpoint I am not sure how good they are for our dogs. As for rice I don't really have a opinion on it. At the end of the day I like everyone else just wants to feed our dogs a good healthy food that has been well tested for them.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Charles Sloane said:


> I see your point and I guess I should have qualified my statement. In the wild a pack of dogs would typically eat the contents of a animals stomach after they kill it and there would often times be grains from grass etc in it depending on where the animal has been. A wild boar would more than likely have corn in its gut if it had been roaming in a area with corn fields. I am not sure when a dog would have encountered pulses until they started getting added to food a few decades ago so from a digestable standpoint I am not sure how good they are for our dogs. As for rice I don't really have a opinion on it. At the end of the day I like everyone else just wants to feed our dogs a good healthy food that has been well tested for them.


I think it all comes down to the fact that dogs stopped being wild. We have feral packs of dogs, but feral dogs rarely ever "hunt". They scavenge for scraps from humans, eat dead animals, and kill if they can. As far as prey goes, wild animals usually do not eat the whatever is in the gut of the animal because it is usually grass. 

We know that dogs are omnivores and wolves are also seen eating fruits and other non meats in the wild. But dogs have evolved to be even more omnivorous. We don't exactly know why, but we do know that dogs are more closely genetically related to bears and they evolved from a more recent ancestor *than cats. Given the fact that bears are very omnivorous and are creatures of opportunity, I can imagine that's where the omnivorous traits come from.

I'm in class so I'm sorry if this post doesn't make a lot of sense, I haven't had a chance to proof read.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Charles Sloane said:


> I see your point and I guess I should have qualified my statement. In the wild a pack of dogs would typically eat the contents of a animals stomach after they kill it and there would often times be grains from grass etc in it depending on where the animal has been. A wild boar would more than likely have corn in its gut if it had been roaming in a area with corn fields. I am not sure when a dog would have encountered pulses until they started getting added to food a few decades ago so from a digestable standpoint I am not sure how good they are for our dogs. As for rice I don't really have a opinion on it. At the end of the day I like everyone else just wants to feed our dogs a good healthy food that has been well tested for them.





I see your point. I do, but I just mean that most of what's in any dog food is not something that would be eaten on it's own by a dog.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Tagrenine said:


> I think it all comes down to the fact that dogs stopped being wild. We have feral packs of dogs, but feral dogs rarely ever "hunt". They scavenge for scraps from humans, eat dead animals, and kill if they can. As far as prey goes, wild animals usually do not eat the whatever is in the gut of the animal because it is usually grass.
> 
> We know that dogs are omnivores and wolves are also seen eating fruits and other non meats in the wild. But dogs have evolved to be even more omnivorous. We don't exactly know why, but we do know that dogs are more closely genetically related to bears and they evolved from a more recent ancestor *than cats. Given the fact that bears are very omnivorous and are creatures of opportunity, I can imagine that's where the omnivorous traits come from.
> 
> I'm in class so I'm sorry if this post doesn't make a lot of sense, I haven't had a chance to proof read.



Bears? lol not so sure about that. I read somewhere in a journal that today's domesticated dogs are less then 1% different then dogs prior to domestication (of roughly 5k years ago). Honestly it could have been an AVA article or something from Purina or Hill's R& D labs I have visited in the past.There nutritional requirements are virtually the same. That's not to say that research on nutrition haven't made nutrition more targeted for say large breed puppies and giant breed dogs. There's no way that I would think bears and dogs are similar other then they are both omnivores.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> Bears? lol not so sure about that. I read somewhere in a journal that today's domesticated dogs are less then 1% different then dogs prior to domestication (of roughly 5k years ago). Honestly it could have been an AVA article or something from Purina or Hill's R& D labs I have visited in the past.There nutritional requirements are virtually the same. That's not to say that research on nutrition haven't made nutrition more targeted for say large breed puppies and giant breed dogs. There's no way that I would think bears and dogs are similar other then they are both omnivores.


I meant as compared to cats lol not wild dogs. As an explanation for their omnivorous behavior. Which if they're as closely related to their ancestors as the article stated, its likely this ability and need to digest more than meat comes from that lineage. But again its all speculation


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Tagrenine said:


> I meant as compared to cats lol not wild dogs. As an explanation for their omnivorous behavior. Which if they're as closely related to their ancestors as the article stated, its likely this ability and need to digest more than meat comes from that lineage. But again its all speculation


Or dogs had an ancient common doggish ancestor that is no longer around that people selectively bred and evolved by selection into what we have today. Any dogs who would not have survived on a mixed or even in some cases purely grain based diet would not have survived long enough to be bred.

And the scientific stuff-

Dogs have evolved to digest starch, as indicated by an increased number of amylase (AMY2B) genes compared to their wolf ancestors.

Dogs can convert plant-based beta-carotene (also known as “provitamin A”) to Retinol, the pure form of vitamin A. Carnivores cannot make this conversion and must get Retinol from animal sources.

Dogs can convert linoleic acid (LA), an essential omega-6 fatty acid found in plant-based sources, to arachidonic acid (AA). Carnivores lack the enzymes to make this conversion.

Dogs have enzymes that aid them in producing the essential amino acid arginine. Cats lack these enzymes and even one meal without arginine can produce devastating consequences, including death.

Dogs can convert the essential amino acid tryptophan to niacin, as can humans. Cats cannot make this conversion and must consume preformed niacin from food or supplements.

Dogs can synthesize taurine, so it is not considered an essential amino acid, however, cats cannot due to the lack of enzymes necessary in this process. Therefore, taurine is an essential amino acid for cats.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Tagrenine said:


> I meant as compared to cats lol not wild dogs. As an explanation for their omnivorous behavior. Which if they're as closely related to their ancestors as the article stated, its likely this ability and need to digest more than meat comes from that lineage. But again its all speculation



Ah that makes sense


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## Cody'sMom (Nov 7, 2010)

I've fed my dog, Hudson, Nutrisource Adult Chicken and Rice since day one. He is 2 years old. This is the dog food his breeder insisted on. She researches and studies dog food. I don't have the knowledge to research dog food myself and I trust her so this is the food I will continue to feed Hudson. He loves it.

Connie and Hudson :wavey:


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