# training collars



## walter1956 (Feb 15, 2013)

I have a 7 year old Golden and a 9 week old golden Pup. Looking to buy a training collar for the two dogs. Looking at a Einstein E-Collar. Wondering if anyone has used this produce, or any other collars. Thanks


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I don't know about the brand, but the 9 week old is probably a little young for an ecollar.

Edit: I have a Tri-Tronics. That seems to be the preferred brand among forum members who use them.


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## Hombrespop (Sep 3, 2012)

E-collars are not magical trainers the dog needs to KNOW the command before you can make corrections which means you need to train your dog first and IMO your pup is way way to young for using an e- collar on and yes I own one and have only used it on a very stubborn 3 yr. old that knows what I want and just ignores the request . My use is strictly for recalling the dog to me nothing else because the recall might save her life.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Get a tritronics collar. They cost more but they work the best. You can get a two dog system that has 2 collars and one transmitter.

Your pup must have his adult in before you start any ecollar work. If you have never colar conditioned Dog before, please get one of the dvds that show you how to do it.


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## dezymond (May 3, 2012)

When training I use a martingale collar on Maverick and he responds to it well.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I just wanted to emphasize that if you've never used a collar before you really need to proceed carefully. All the previous advice you've received here is great, but if you've never used one before you really need to understand that timing of corrections is extremely important and if you aren't careful you can really end up ruining a dog with one. 

I was at a HRC training club event this past weekend and watched a man handling a Chesapeake Bay Retriever through what should have been a fun activity for the dog, field training. You could tell something wasn't right the minute the dog was out of the truck, no enthusiasm, no zest, no wagging tail. I watched the man screw up the timing of the corrections for the dog to the extent that the dog wouldn't move under direction and it was heartbreaking to see. I wouldn't use one without competent professional instruction.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I've heard good things about the Einstein collars. It's a newer brand, so not as much talk about them as the old mainstays like tritronics and dogtra.


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## walter1956 (Feb 15, 2013)

Thanks for all the input. Of course I'm not using a training collar on a pup. I want the collars for walks. Had a set of collars 10 years ago for walks with my two Goldens, at the time, my 7 years old was the pup, now she is the senior. Just was asking if there is anytime new on the market. Thanks


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I wouldn't recommend an e-collar until he is 6 months old or older and properly conditioned period. I use a Tri-Tronics.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Most Ecollar trainers think (and all the manufacturers agree) that the minimum age to use an Ecollar is six months. 

Those who have said that the dog needs to know the behavior before an Ecollar can be used are mistaken. CLICK HERE to see how, for example, the recall can be taught to a dog who does not know the command at all. 

The Einstein is a relatively new brand of Ecollar. They have some innovative features that other brands do not offer and have a very high number (100) stim levels so you can dial in exactly what the dog needs in any situation. The stim level that he needs will vary with the environment and the distractions that are present in it. 

Another brand, Dogtra, also offers a high number of levels (127). Other brands, (other than Einstein and Dogtra) while they may be quality units, do not offer anywhere near this number of levels. Commonly, the other brands offer 15-20 levels at most. All you can do with them is to approximate the level of stim that the dog needs, and if there are slight changes in the environment, you can't accommodate them well. 

If all you're going to do is to use the Ecollar for corrections when the dog does not comply with commands, having a large number of levels is not as important as if you want to train new behaviors. I think that communicating at the lowest level that the dog can feel, is very important.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Do plenty of solid research into the use of e collars. They are illegal in some countries, and the position statement of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior raises good concerns. When we see a shut down puppy, a highly stressed puppy, or a dog that redirects aggression at our training center, one of the first questions asked is if the person has used an e collar. If you do use one, make sure you get expert advice in collar conditioning and have excellent timing.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> Do plenty of solid research into the use of e collars. They are illegal in some countries, and the position statement of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior raises good concerns. When we see a shut down puppy, a highly stressed puppy, or a dog that redirects aggression at our training center, one of the first questions asked is if the person has used an e collar. If you do use one, make sure you get expert advice in collar conditioning and have excellent timing.


Ecollars are not illegal anywhere in the US, and the OP is in Michigan. I’m not sure why people give this sort of general warning against Ecollars, especially when the OP has previously used one, and obviously was satisfied with the results. He's now looking for a new unit and all he's asking is _"if there is [anything] new on the market."_ 

To the best of my knowledge Ecollars are banned in ONE country, Wales, not _"some countries."_ A very few countries have placed some restrictions on them but all one needs in most of those countries is a letter from a vet. If someone has more up to date information about Ecollars being illegal elsewhere, please post it here. 

I realize that I didn't answer the OP's question. I've been using Einsteins for a while now. If you have any specific questions, just ask. 

But if anyone is considering the use of an Ecollar, and you've not used one before, I suggest that you read the article I linked to (here it is again) CLICK HERE. Remember that it's a shortened version of the protocol and to get full details, contact me privately. 

The suggestions to _"do plenty of solid research in the use of Ecollars"_ and to read _"the position statement of the AVSAB"_ are actually contradictory. The _"position statement"_ contains nothing that even hints of _"solid research,"_ it's an opinion piece. Better to talk to people who have used the Ecollar and are either happy or dissatisfied with their results. 

When I see a dog that's shut down I realize there are several possibilities. First, it could be genetics. It also might be environmental. Perhaps he's a sensitive dog who's been kept in an environment that's "too much for him." (An example might be a dog in a shelter who's never been in one before). It might also be that whatever training technique that's been applied, has been applied improperly. Just about ANY training tool/method can do this. Lots of people want folks to think that this is a result of the use of training tools that they don't like. This betrays their prejudice against those tools, when the prejudice should be against POOR USE of those (or any) tools. No one can tell what method was used for ANY of the thousands of dogs that I've trained, which is as it should be. 

The Ecollar is a VERY easy tool to learn to use, there's at least one free website that will teach you to use an Ecollar for many behaviors, including basic OB, chasing cats and other animals, and other problem solving. 

Those who say that you need _"excellent timing"_ really don't know much about some Ecollar methods that only require that you be able to do a couple of things at once. If you can tap your foot and clap your hands at the same time, your timing is plenty good enough to use an Ecollar. Many of the so−called "kinder gentler methods" require far better timing than an Ecollar does.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I agree that people should do plenty of research in regards to the ecollar. Meet with owners and their dogs that have trained with them. Meet and talk to these owners vets. Meet and talk to their trainers. Don't just assume, research the reality. 

Ask your vet about dogs that are abused and shut down. They more than likely will tell you they had to surgically remove a flat collar embedded in their necks. 

Abusers will use any tool to abuse.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I do believe that Lou is correct that Wales is the only country in which they are completely banned, but when the Association of Professional Dog Trainers, the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior, the British Small Animals Veterinary Association, and the Kennel Club all express strong opinions ranging from the inappropriateness of e-collars for first-line training of basic behavior, all the way to calls for outright bans, it merits some attention. The AVSAB's position statement on negative reinforcement and punishment is particularly lucid and makes good reading for anybody considering these issues; it does in fact contain several references to scholarly work, not just opinions and assertions.

Here are some relevant portions of what I linked:

APDT: "Use of electronic training collars can result in trauma to your dog and generally are not recommended by positive reinforcement trainers."

AVSAB: "AVSAB's position is that punishment (e.g., choke chains, pinch collars, and electronic collars) should not be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. This is due to the potential adverse effects which include but are not limited to: inhibition of learning, increased fear-related and aggressive behaviors, and injury to animals and people interacting with animals."

BSAVA: "The British Small Animal Veterinary Association (BSAVA) opposes the use of electronic shock collars for training and containment of animals. Shocks received during training may not only be acutely stressful, painful and frightening for the animal but also may produce long term adverse effects on behavioural and emotional responses."

KC: "Studies comparing the use of the shock collar method with positive reinforcement techniques suggest that rewarding a dog for good behaviour can produce a much more balanced and obedient dog. [...] Scientific studies indicate that electric shock collars can cause a dog to develop behavioural problems, especially increased aggression."

These collars are legal here, but there's lots of evidence that it might be a good idea to reconsider their use, especially for basic obedience training.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

And what do the studies say about owners who have tried the positive training only to give up and tie them to a tree in their backyards? Or worse yet take them for a long walk? The majority of the time it is not the technique it is the owner.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I see lots of claims about "studies," but no data. How did they conduct those studies, and where is the quantifiable data? 

Studies without data = opinion. 


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nairb said:


> I see lots of claims about "studies," but no data. How did they conduct those studies, and where is the quantifiable data?
> 
> Studies without data = opinion.


To what are you referring? Each of the organizations I linked that claims a "study" has footnotes with the referenced study. You can certainly disagree with their interpretation, methodology, and conclusions, but there are a ton of studies referenced. There's quite a bit of quantitative data as well as qualitative observation. These organizations, particularly those with a scientific bent like the AVSAB, do not arrive at these positions randomly. The decisions are largely data-driven.

I think the use of the e-collar is certainly defensible by ethical people, but the consensus among credentialed dog trainers (e.g., APDT-KA and APDT-KSA) and board-certified vet behaviorists skews pretty hard against the use of aversives in dog training, particularly for first-line obedience issues. Let's not pretend otherwise.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> To what are you referring? Each of the organizations I linked that claims a "study" has footnotes with the referenced study. You can certainly disagree with their interpretation, methodology, and conclusions, but there are a ton of studies referenced. There's quite a bit of quantitative data as well as qualitative observation. These organizations, particularly those with a scientific bent like the AVSAB, do not arrive at these positions randomly. The decisions are largely data-driven.
> 
> I think the use of the e-collar is certainly defensible by ethical people, but the consensus among credentialed dog trainers (e.g., APDT-KA and APDT-KSA) and board-certified vet behaviorists skews pretty hard against the use of aversives in dog training, particularly for first-line obedience issues. Let's not pretend otherwise.


I was referencing your numerous quotes. I'll check the foot notes later, but I doubt I'll be impressed with their methodology. They likely conducted the "study" with a predetermined bias. Let's not pretend otherwise. 

I agree that any collar can be misused. A dog can be abused with no collar at all. I'm not even claiming that an ecollar is the right tool for every dog and ever owner. But I've been around long enough to know not to put much stock in "studies" with predetermined outcomes. 


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nairb said:


> I was referencing your numerous quotes. I'll check the foot notes later, but I doubt I'll be impressed with their methodology. They likely conducted the "study" with a predetermined bias. Let's not pretend otherwise.


Firstly, the studies referenced are generally not conducted by the organization writing the paper. The studies are independent of the organization citing them. Second, I doubt any bias involved could possibly be greater than that which you just expressed in your plans to read the papers.



Nairb said:


> I agree that any collar can be misused. A dog can be abused with no collar at all. I'm not even claiming that an ecollar is the right tool for every dog and ever owner. But I've been around long enough to know not to put much stock in "studies" with predetermined outcomes.


There is a long history of the study of positive punishment in behavioral science, and much of it was conducted without a significant bias for or against it. I'm sure much of what's cited in e-collar-specific debates is pretty biased, but the side-effects of positive punishment and negative reinforcement are well documented, as is their general inferiority in creating safe, durable behavioral change.

As I said, there is a very good reason that such a large majority of certified professionals advocate for non-aversive methods and advocate against the use of positive punishment and negative reinforcement in all but a handful of situations.

I find it interesting that you have predetermined what you will find in the papers I linked without reading them, all the while accusing those papers of citing studies with predetermined conclusions.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

I don't use them not do I feel I need them, however the brand I hear of most is tri tronics or something like that


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> And what do the studies say about *owners who have tried the positive training only to give up and* *tie them to a tree in their backyards? Or worse yet take them for a long walk?*


And heaven help those dogs with owners that would do those things should they ever get their hands on an e-collar...


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Oops I should learn to read all the previous posts before i post.

I'm not touching this one with a fourty foot pole


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Tippy, I checked your links. Sorry, but I'm still not seeing the data you referenced. It could be that I missed it, since I'm working from an iPhone, but all I see are opinions and anecdotal "evidence." Those footnotes are not clickable. 

As for who conducted whatever "studies" are referenced in these opinion pieces......the studies weren't conducted for free. Furthermore, I wouldn't expect any of the sources to use any "study" that doesn't fully validate their clearly biased opinions on prong collars and ecollars. 

I think the focus should be on abusive pet owners, not training equipment used to inflict the abuse. As I mentioned earlier, a training collar is not necessary to abuse a dog. 


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> And heaven help those dogs with owners that would do those things should they ever get their hands on an e-collar...


Heaven help those dogs if their abusers get ahold of a baseball bat. Wait they don't need any tool, they can just use their fists.

But again I am looking for studies on this, which I don't think exists.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I do believe that Lou is correct that Wales is the only country in which they are completely banned, but when the Association of Professional Dog Trainers, the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior, the British Small Animals Veterinary Association, and the Kennel Club all express strong opinions ranging from the inappropriateness of e-collars for first-line training of basic behavior, all the way to calls for outright bans, * it merits some attention. * [Emphasis Added]


Indeed it does. But when people who have actually used the tool and are completely happy with their results, that merits *MORE *attention than the opinion of these groups. Some of the groups have a vested interest in bad−mouthing the tool and training methods that use it. Their members have taken a stance against them. Often that stance is based on old, outdated information and they have not paid attention to either new methods of using the tool and/or improvements in the tools themselves. Now they can't reverse their position and so the groups that support those behaviorists and trainers must follow suit. 

Vets typically know very little about dog training, particularly in the US. They receive lots of medical information in school, but very little training information. So their opinion is of little value in this. 

The Brits have next to no knowledge about modern uses of modern version of the tools, this is obvious in many of their statements, so similarly their opinions are of little value here. 

Notice that these groups have been calling for bans on Ecollars for many years, some of them for decades, but not one state in the US has paid them any mind. People who are looking for information about Ecollars, shouldn't either. 



tippykayak said:


> The AVSAB's position statement on negative reinforcement and punishment is particularly lucid and makes good reading for anybody considering these issues; it does in fact contain several references to scholarly work, not just opinions and assertions.
> Here are some relevant portions of what I linked:
> 
> APDT: "Use of electronic training collars can result in trauma to your dog and generally are not recommended by positive reinforcement trainers."


If I was completely ignorant about modern use of modern Ecollars AND had a paying membership that had taken a stance against them, I'd make the same recommendation. Fortunately, I know about these things, and could not give Ecollars a more enthusiastic endorsement. 



tippykayak said:


> AVSAB: "AVSAB's position is that punishment (e.g., choke chains, pinch collars, and electronic collars) should not be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. This is due to the potential adverse effects which include but are not limited to: inhibition of learning, increased fear-related and aggressive behaviors, and injury to animals and people interacting with animals."


Modern methods of using Ecollars DOES NOT RESULT in ANY of these things. 



tippykayak said:


> BSAVA: "The British Small Animal Veterinary Association (BSAVA) opposes the use of electronic shock collars for training and containment of animals. Shocks received during training may not only be acutely stressful, painful and frightening for the animal but also may produce long term adverse effects on behavioural and emotional responses."


The Brits are just about completely ignorant of the modern use of modern Ecollars and the best current scientific studies on it. In fact, Stephen Lindsay, author of _The Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training _ Says, 



> Most scientific evidence supports the notion that [Ecollar training] is more likely to * enhance social attraction, promote feelings of safety, and calm a dog rather than make a dog afraid or apprehensive. * [Emphasis Added]


He adds


> * The preponderance of scientific evidence suggests that [Ecollar training] should promote long-term effects that are incompatible with fear and stress, *making the trainer an object of significant extrinsic reward that actually *enhances the dog's welfare *via an improved capacity for social coping, learning, and adaptation. [Emphasis Added]


Lindsay also cites a 2001 document from the Delta Society, an unbiased organization on this topic. That paper says, 



> Both radio−controlled and behavior−activated electronics have been recognized as * effective and humane training equipment * when used properly and in accordance with humane principles [Emphasis Added]





tippykayak said:


> KC: "Studies comparing the use of the shock collar method with positive reinforcement techniques *suggest *that rewarding a dog for good behaviour can produce a much more balanced and obedient dog. [...] Scientific studies indicate that electric shock collars can cause a dog to develop behavioural problems, especially increased aggression." [Emphasis Added]


Notice their use of a key word, _"suggests."_ They're not saying anything unequivocally, they're just saying that the studies _"suggest"_ these things. UNIVERSALLY when Ecollars cause a dog _"to develop behavioral problems, especially increased aggression"_ they've not been used with modern methods. 

IN FACT, one of the most recent of scientific studies that compares the Ecollar to the pinch collar and the _"positive reinforcement techniques"_ directly contradicts the KC. The Hannover study (CLICK HERE), showed that the use of the Ecollar resulted in LESS stress than EITHER the pinch collar or the +R method. Rather than using completely subjective measures as most anti−Ecollar studies do, (allowing biased researches to skew the results any way that they like) the Hannover study measured cortisol production, which is completely objective and free of bias. 



tippykayak said:


> These collars are legal here


Yes they are, in spite of all the evidence that you provide. I'd say that the legislators don't believe the research that you supply either. Neither should the readers. Spinning generalities about the use of punishment, really is a waste of our time here. 



tippykayak said:


> but there's lots of evidence that it might be a good idea to reconsider their use, especially for basic obedience training.


Actually the evidence works both ways. Some of the evidence in favor of Ecollars, comes from unbiased sources, while most of the evidence against them comes from HIGHLY biased sources. Basing a decision to use or not to use an Ecollar, on generalities and recommendations from those with massive financial biases either way, is not a good idea. Basically, you shouldn't ask a Ford dealer his opinion about Chevvies. 

That's why I recommend talking to people who have used the Ecollar successfully and are happy with their results. Those folks have used the Ecollar properly and are far better sources of information about them, than biased scientific studies or organizations with axes to grind on either side of the question.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I think the use of the e-collar is certainly defensible by ethical people, but the consensus among credentialed dog trainers (e.g., APDT-KA and APDT-KSA) and board-certified vet behaviorists skews pretty hard against the use of aversives in dog training, particularly for first-line obedience issues. Let's not pretend otherwise.


You're right. When you ask the organizations you mention, they are against _"the use of aversives in dog training."_ But pretending that they are the only opinion in this discussion, is silly. 

There are plenty of organizations, such as the IACP, International Association of Canine Professionals and OB clubs all over the US who support the use of Ecollars. 

AGAIN the best people to ask on this topic are people who have used the tool and are happy with their work. Generalities from biased organizations with financial axes to grind are worthless.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> The studies are independent of the organization citing them. Second, I doubt any bias involved could possibly be greater than that which you just expressed in your plans to read the papers.


Just about universally the studies that show bad outcomes are funded by and done by people with anti Ecollar biases. Often they've used completely subjective measures that allow the researchers to skew the results any way that they like. At times the "conclusions" of those studies are not even supported by the research! 

Usually, the studies that support use of the Ecollar use objective measures so that the results can't be skewed. 



tippykayak said:


> There is a long history of the study of positive punishment in behavioral science, and much of it was conducted without a significant bias for or against it.


I'll disagree. MOST of those studies were done by people with a bias against +P. And often they used very high levels of punishment in those studies. Modern Ecollar use uses very low levels if punishment, and so those studies have nothing to do with this discussion. 



tippykayak said:


> I'm sure much of what's cited in e-collar-specific debates is pretty biased, but the side-effects of positive punishment and negative reinforcement are well documented, as is their general inferiority in creating safe, durable behavioral change.


All of this is great, but of little value to a pet owner wondering how to train his dog. The best sources are people who have had success and are happy with their results. 



tippykayak said:


> As I said, there is a very good reason that such a large majority of certified professionals advocate for non-aversive methods and advocate against the use of positive punishment and negative reinforcement in all but a handful of situations.


The value of comments from _"advocates"_ is minimal and should be taken with a VERY LARGE grain of salt. 



tippykayak said:


> I find it interesting that you have predetermined what you will find in the papers I linked without reading them, all the while accusing those papers of citing studies with predetermined conclusions.


I've read many of these studies and the biases are sometimes subtle, and sometimes obvious, but it's almost always present. 

And finally, the OP has already made his decision. He's used Ecollars, and liked the results. * Now he's just asking for information about the latest models. * These philosophical discussions, while sometimes interesting, are NOT what this thread is about. They often drift this way though, when the antis enter the discussion. Notice that people who use Ecollars almost NEVER intrude on discussions of the so−called "kinder gentler methods, telling those folks that they should use Ecollars. It's an interesting duality, one that never ceases to amaze me.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Just worth mentioning, my memories of the dog training 'pros' when I was in Calabria was that the best training tools for dogs was a leather whip and a fist (not literally but giving them a beating definately wasn't frowned upon by the trainers)


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Tuco said:


> Just worth mentioning, my memories of the dog training 'pros' when I was in Calabria was that the best training tools for dogs was a leather whip and a fist (not literally but giving them a beating definately wasn't frowned upon by the trainers)
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That would be a good helping of common sense to hit the road jack


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

> That's why I recommend talking to people who have used the Ecollar successfully and are happy with their results. Those folks have used the Ecollar properly and are far better sources of information about them, than biased scientific studies or organizations with axes to grind on either side of the question.


You can talk to people who have used the e collar in real life and are unhappy with their results. You can talk to people who use the E collar and are happy like Lou. On the internet, someone will take just about any position under the sun. 

There is nothing like a great school, a great mentor, or a great trainer in real life. Reading widely is great too. Control Unleashed for puppies has good ideas. Ian Dunbar is often recommended on the forum. I really like the Tufts University puppy book Puppy's First Steps by Nicholas Dodman. 

A good way to find a dog trainer if you want a nice pet and companion is to ask people with therapy dogs or nice CGC dogs you admire where they took class. CPDT-KA is a nice credential for a pet dog trainer. Many pet dog trainers are members of the APDT, are CGC evaluators, and are up to date with current methods. 

Home
Association of Pet Dog Trainers - Dog Training Resources

Deciding to use an e collar on a 9 week old puppy is a serious matter worth researching, whichever way you go with it. It is controversial, and rightfully so. 

Best of luck with your goldens.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Ljilly, the OP made it clear in a subsequent post that he was not going to use it on the 9 week old. 

While you may not advocate the use of prongs at your facility, many great trainers do. 


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

kwhit said:


> And heaven help those dogs with owners that would do those things should they ever get their hands on an e-collar...


I never understand why some people take training discussions into the area of abuse of animals. It makes no sense to me. Is it because they really have no other argument? Is it because they prefer to keep the discussion in the emotional, rather than the rational realm? 

In any case, this argument is very weak. If someone is intent on abusing a dog it's far better for the dog if they choose an Ecollar rather than a pinch collar, a choke chain, a plain buckle collar, a fist, a boot or a stick. ALL of those can cause BOTH pain AND physical injury. The Ecollar can only cause pain, NOT physical injury.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Vets typically know very little about dog training, particularly in the US. They receive lots of medical information in school, but very little training information. So their opinion is of little value in this.


Including board-certified veterinary behaviorists? Interesting that they don't receive any training in dog behavior. I wonder what kind of training they get?



Lou Castle said:


> The Brits have next to no knowledge about modern uses of modern version of the tools, this is obvious in many of their statements, so similarly their opinions are of little value here.


LOL, what? Did you just write off a whole nation?



Lou Castle said:


> That's why I recommend talking to people who have used the Ecollar successfully and are happy with their results.


If that's your only information source, you've pre-selected a group that will only give you a "yes" on e-collars. Just as if you only talk to people who have used the clicker successfully and are happy with their results, you will hear only good things about the clicker. That's hardly research.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Generalities from biased organizations with financial axes to grind are worthless.


Who has a financial axe to grind? Veterinary behaviorists? APDT-certified trainers? How does the KC financially benefit from advocating for an e-collar ban? None of the orgs I linked have a direct profit motive.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> The value of comments from _"advocates"_ is minimal and should be taken with a VERY LARGE grain of salt.


Would you not describe yourself as an advocate?




Lou Castle said:


> These philosophical discussions, while sometimes interesting, are NOT what this thread is about. They often drift this way though, when the antis enter the discussion. Notice that people who use Ecollars almost NEVER intrude on discussions of the so−called "kinder gentler methods, telling those folks that they should use Ecollars. It's an interesting duality, one that never ceases to amaze me.


Really? Have you read much on GRF except the e-collar threads? There are plenty where somebody specifically says they'd like to train without an e-collar and several users of it spend a lot of energy trying to persuade the poster otherwise.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> If that's your only information source, you've pre-selected a group that will only give you a "yes" on e-collars. Just as if you only talk to people who have used the clicker successfully and are happy with their results, you will hear only good things about the clicker. That's hardly research.


Actually talking and meeting owners *and* their dogs who have been successfully trained with ecollars would put all those myths to bed. Positive training is wonderful and not one person here is denying that. However if it were fool proof there wouldn't be so many dogs in shelters or killed every year.

And I am not an advocate, I'm just a normal dog owner who knows that the ecollar is a safe and wonderful tool if people chose to use it properly.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Never mind.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Bentleysmom said:


> Here's a search on the subject.
> 
> Web's largest community of Golden Retriever enthusiasts. Visit our Golden Retriever discussion forum & gallery with thousands of photos & videos. - Search Results for e- collars


 
Einstein collars are new. I never heard of them until the op posted. Doubt that he could find them if he searched.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Heaven help those dogs if their abusers get ahold of a baseball bat. Wait they don't need any tool, they can just use their fists.


Absolutely true. 

My statement was in response to your saying that if owners are frustrated with positive training that they may resort to tying their dog to a tree or take them for a "long walk". My point being that if those owners could do those other abusive things to their dogs, then their use of the e-collar would most likely _not_ be in the dog's favor. And that is exactly why, IMO, e-collars should not be available to everyone that wants one. They should be allowed only if those owners that want one agree to an extensive training course in their proper use. Personally, I wish they didn't exist, but they do, so those wanting to use one should learn _exactly_ how to use them.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> Absolutely true.
> 
> My statement was in response to your saying that if owners are frustrated with positive training that they may resort to tying their dog to a tree or take them for a "long walk". My point being that if those owners could do those other abusive things to their dogs, then their use of the e-collar would most likely _not_ be in the dog's favor. And that is exactly why, IMO, e-collars should not be available to everyone that wants one. They should be allowed only if those owners that want one agree to an extensive training course in their proper use. Personally, I wish they didn't exist, but they do, so those wanting to use one should learn _exactly_ how to use them.


If that was the point you were trying to get across then you misunderstood mine entirely. People will eventually get frustrated and can't deal with out of control dogs so they will eventually get rid of them or kick them out of their homes. I never said they were abusers, you did by portraying putting an ecollar in their hands They will just give up on them. Thus how many dogs are put to sleep daily or are given over to shelters. If they can't achieve a well behaved dog thru other types of training they might find wonderful results with the ecollar. It is an alternative, and not an evil one that people are trying to portray. 

But just to make myself clear, the tool is much more than a last ditch effort. It can be used in many ways without ill effects.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> And what do the studies say about owners who have tried the positive training only to give up and *tie them to a tree in their backyards*? *Or worse yet take them for a long walk*?


I would consider both of these actions abuse.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> I would consider both of these actions abuse.


Taking a dog on a long walk to the nearest shelter or tying them to a tree is not desirable by any means, however they are not considered abuse in most states. :sigh: So much for my point.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

walter1956 said:


> I have a 7 year old Golden and a 9 week old golden Pup. Looking to buy a training collar for the two dogs. Looking at a Einstein E-Collar. Wondering if anyone has used this produce, or any other collars. Thanks


Walter,

That is a new product on the market, so there really aren't going to be many people with extensive direct experience with the product. 

Good Electronic Collars as a rule are expensive due to the conditions they have to perform in. They do take a beating. There are a lot of cheap electronic collars on the market, some priced as low as $25. Put simply, they're JUNK and I wouldn't put one of them on my dog. 

Looking at the price point and information available online about the Einstein, I suspect it isn't very robust in design or construction. I won't be plopping down my hard earned money on one anytime soon. They look to employ similar construction to DT, Innotek, Sportdog and Petsafe, and I won't put any one of those on my dogs. I don't trust them to work like they're supposed to, because THEY DON'T. 

I started using E Collars a long time ago, Starting with Max #1. I'm starting Max #4 now, so a few decades have passed since then. Einstein may turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread, but the school of hard knocks tells me probably not. If it was made to last it would cost a heck of a lot more money. 

I would suggest looking for a E Collar with a long proven track record of success before putting down your hard earned money.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Taking a dog on a long walk to the nearest shelter or tying them to a tree is not desirable by any means, however they are not considered abuse in most states. :sigh: So much for my point.


A shelter was never mentioned. I took it to mean dumping, literally. And socially ostracizing an animal that thrives on human companionship by tying it to a tree away from the family, *to me*, (again, _to me_), is definitely abuse. Maybe not physically, but, without a doubt, emotionally.

Oh...and I don't need the government to decide what I believe is abuse. You can leave an animal outside alone in all kinds of weather, no matter what it's age, and as long as it has shelter and food/water, it's okay with "the state". It could be petrified of being alone, flea ridden, emotionally shut down and I guess if your "state" says it's not abuse, then that's what you believe, too, right?


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## walter1956 (Feb 15, 2013)

Holy Cow, didn't think I'd get so many responses. I'm the one that asked about e-collars, and I'm glad I did. Really did not want to read studies from companies that make the produce, wanted to ask real peolpe about them. As I posted, I've used a set 7 years ago, 99% of the time with the beeper fuction, worked really well, especially when walking with no leash and 2 dogs. I live in the country, so it's how I want to walk my dogs. The new produce I read about was the Eindtein collar with a thumping action ?? As I said, I'm glad I asked, and thank you Lou Castle for your post. Walt and Vicki, along with 7 year ago Torrie and 11 week ago Bella


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

kwhit said:


> A shelter was never mentioned. I took it to mean dumping, literally. And socially ostracizing an animal that thrives on human companionship by tying it to a tree away from the family, *to me*, (again, _to me_), is definitely abuse. Maybe not physically, but, without a doubt, emotionally.
> 
> Oh...and I don't need the government to decide what I believe is abuse. You can leave an animal outside alone in all kinds of weather, no matter what it's age, and as long as it has shelter and food/water, it's okay with "the state". It could be petrified of being alone, flea ridden, emotionally shut down and I guess if your "state" says it's not abuse, then that's what you believe, too, right?


Earlier, you stated that not everyone that wants an ecollar should be able to get one. Now, you don't need the government to decide what is abuse? That's interesting.....


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Nairb said:


> Earlier, you stated that not everyone that wants an ecollar should be able to get one. Now, you don't need the government to decide what is abuse? That's interesting.....
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Government doesn't have to make that decision, retailers could. At my shop we don't carry e-collars, our choice. The other store I worked at didn't carry them either, also a choice. 

We carry a brand of food that is only sold through independents. The manufacturer chooses which stores will carry their food. The e-collar companies could do the same...choose to only wholesale to training facilities. I know it will never happen because of the almighty $, but that doesn't mean that it can't be hoped for.

What I said about not selling them to everyone was "IMO, e-collars should not be available to everyone that wants one. *They should be allowed only if those owners that want one agree to an extensive training course in their proper use*." I didn't mean that not everyone should get one, but that they should not be available to buy anywhere. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that point.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

kwhit said:


> Government doesn't have to make that decision, retailers could. At my shop we don't carry e-collars, our choice. The other store I worked at didn't carry them either, also a choice.
> 
> We carry a brand of food that is only sold through independents. The manufacturer chooses which stores will carry their food. The e-collar companies could do the same...choose to only wholesale to training facilities. I know it will never happen because of the almighty $, but that doesn't mean that it can't be hoped for.


I'm fine with retailers making that choice, as long as it isn't some bureaucrat or elected official telling me whether I can use one.

ETA: As for the paragraph you added since I first read your post...only a government body can regulate that. Is that what you're advocating?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> A shelter was never mentioned. I took it to mean dumping, literally. And socially ostracizing an animal that thrives on human companionship by tying it to a tree away from the family, *to me*, (again, _to me_), is definitely abuse. Maybe not physically, but, without a doubt, emotionally.
> 
> Oh...and I don't need the government to decide what I believe is abuse. You can leave an animal outside alone in all kinds of weather, no matter what it's age, and as long as it has shelter and food/water, it's okay with "the state". It could be petrified of being alone, flea ridden, emotionally shut down and I guess if your "state" says it's not abuse, then that's what you believe, too, right?



Holy cow! If you want to start an animal abuse thread have at it. I was was merely pointing out what happens to out of control untrained dogs and would like to see a study or perhaps real examples of how they get there or what methods of training they used or didn't use since people are throwing out studies on ecollar damage. Oy Vey!


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Guys chill, peace, zen, meditation, tranquilize, unbend, unlax, unwind 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Tuco said:


> Guys chill, peace, zen, meditation, tranquilize, unbend, unlax, unwind
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



LOL! Unbend! That made me laugh! I will have to borrow that one!


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Lou Castle said:


> Actually the evidence works both ways. Some of the evidence in favor of Ecollars, comes from unbiased sources, while most of the evidence against them comes from HIGHLY biased sources. Basing a decision to use or not to use an Ecollar, on generalities and recommendations from those with massive financial biases either way, is not a good idea. Basically, you shouldn't ask a Ford dealer his opinion about Chevvies.
> 
> That's why I recommend talking to people who have used the Ecollar successfully and are happy with their results. Those folks have used the Ecollar properly and are far better sources of information about them, than biased scientific studies or organizations with axes to grind on either side of the question.


:roflmao: Lou, you crack me up! Let me make sure I got all this right.... Studies that agree with you come from unbiased sources but ones that disagree come from "HIGHLY" biased ones. We should only ask people who agree with your way of thinking. And while accepting all this, we should completely ignore your own personal and financial biases that are at stake (as you slyly plug your website and encourage people to contact you "privately" for more info). Is that right? Ok, got it! :roflmao:



Wyatt's mommy said:


> Actually talking and meeting owners *and* their dogs who have been successfully trained with ecollars would put all those myths to bed. Positive training is wonderful and not one person here is denying that. However if it were fool proof there wouldn't be so many dogs in shelters or killed every year.


Please tell me I'm reading this wrong. Are you blaming the number of dogs in shelters on the weakness you perceive to be present in "positive training?" Do you honestly believe that the majority of owners who dump their dogs in shelters have actually bothered to take the time to train them in ANY fashion? Do you not believe that there are at least as many dogs there due to failed punitive/correctional methods as there are ones due to failed "positive" ones?  I'm honestly assuming I'm missing something in the wording here but I can't make out quite what it was you meant by this. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

I'm not commenting on training etc. Just wanted to say that I have seen a used quite a few different e-collars. I'd go tritronics or sportdog.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Please tell me I'm reading this wrong. Are you blaming the number of dogs in shelters on the weakness you perceive to be present in "positive training?" Do you honestly believe that the majority of owners who dump their dogs in shelters have actually bothered to take the time to train them in ANY fashion? Do you not believe that there are at least as many dogs there due to failed punitive/correctional methods as there are ones due to failed "positive" ones? I'm honestly assuming I'm missing something in the wording here but I can't make out quite what it was you meant by this.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz


Obviously you are missing quite a bit. And if you read any of my posts I never said ALL dogs in the shelters are there because they failed positive training. I said this is the outcome of out of control poorly trained dogs. And was wondering if there is research on why this happens. What type of training have they had?


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> You can talk to people who have used the e collar in real life and are unhappy with their results. You can talk to people who use the E collar and are happy like Lou. On the internet, someone will take just about any position under the sun.


If people use a tool improperly, without training or education, I'd expect them not to be happy, NO MATTER WHAT TOOL/METHOD they tried. This forum HAS DOZENS of such posts from people who have tried the so−called "kinder gentler methods" and have NOT liked their results. Can you point us to someone here, or anywhere who has used the Ecollar, with my methods and is unhappy with their results? 



Ljilly28 said:


> Many pet dog trainers are members of the APDT, are CGC evaluators, and are up to date with current methods.


It seems that this term or some like it _"current methods"_ is used quite a bit by those who favor the so−called "kinder gentler methods" and who oppose Ecollars. The fact is that those methods are NOT the MOST current method out there. That would be low level stim use of Ecollars. 



Ljilly28 said:


> Deciding to use an e collar on a 9 week old puppy is a serious matter worth researching, whichever way you go with it. It is controversial, and rightfully so.


The OP has said that he's not using a training collar on the puppy.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Including board-certified veterinary behaviorists? Interesting that they don't receive any training in dog behavior. I wonder what kind of training they get?


I specifically said, _"Vets."_ You've tried to move the goalposts to a very small subgroup of vets, _"certified veterinary behaviorists."_ And BTW, being a behaviorist does not make one a dog trainer, or necessarily give one any knowledge of how to train a dog. My original statement was and still is accurate. _"Vets typically know very little about dog training, particularly in the US."_ 



tippykayak said:


> LOL, what? Did you just write off a whole nation?


When DEFRA decided to research Ecollars in examining a proposed ban in the UK they needed experts on modern use of the too. To get those experts, they called in trainers FROM THE US to get their opinions. THEY decided that there was not enough trainers in the country who knew enough to advise them. If they don't think that there were enough trainers in the UK who had enough knowledge and expertise about modern uses of the Ecollar, I'll agree with them. 



tippykayak said:


> If that's your only information source, you've pre-selected a group that will only give you a "yes" on e-collars. Just as if you only talk to people who have used the clicker successfully and are happy with their results, you will hear only good things about the clicker. That's hardly research.


Of course it's "research." Research is hardly limited to reading peer reviewed scientific studies. It's far better to hear directly from people who have actually used the tool than the generalities, emotionalism and fear that some try to spread just about every time that this discussion comes up. Talking to people who have had success with the Ecollar exposes the facts and the reality about Ecollars. 

The most common anecdotal comments on this forum against the Ecollar are usually either second or third hand. "I saw a dog ..." or "I know of a dog ..." or "I heard of a dog on the Net ..." They almost always come through a filter of someone opposed to Ecollar use. I don't recall seeing a direct report from an owner on this forum of the sort of drastic failures when they used an Ecollar that we see with other tools/methods. Yet the stories of complete failures with the so−called "kinder gentler methods" abound! Can you direct me to an Ecollar user who has such a tale to tell on this forum?


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Who has a financial axe to grind? Veterinary behaviorists? APDT-certified trainers? How does the KC financially benefit from advocating for an e-collar ban? None of the orgs I linked have a direct profit motive.


ALL of them have, at least, an indirect profit motive and some a direct one.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Would you not describe yourself as an advocate?


Probably one of the strongest advocates for the Ecollar on this forum. You and some others frequently, as now, put up information from supposedly reputable sources, that promise all sorts of horrorshows if the Ecollar, or for that matter any form of +P is used. If those were true then NO ONE would be able to train a dog successfully using an Ecollar or +P. But we know that this is simply not the case. MILLIONS of people who use the Ecollar or forms of +P have happy, healthy dogs and are completely happy with their results. The fact is that the horrorshows that your sites threaten, ONLY happen with poor use of the Ecollar or +P. If they're used properly, nothing untoward happens. Yet not one of your sites admits this. 

Earlier I wrote,


> Notice that people who use Ecollars almost NEVER intrude on discussions of the so−called "kinder gentler methods," telling those folks that they should use Ecollars. It's an interesting duality, one that never ceases to amaze me.





tippykayak said:


> Really? Have you read much on GRF except the e-collar threads?


Quite a bit. 



tippykayak said:


> There are plenty where somebody specifically says they'd like to train without an e-collar and several users of it spend a lot of energy trying to persuade the poster otherwise.


I'd bet that just about every time that's occurred, it's been in a thread that was about the Ecollar or where Ecollar use was suggested, and that person came in against the Ecollar. Since you seem the think that Ecollar users DO _"intrude on discussions of the so−called 'kinder gentler methods,' telling those folks that they should use Ecollars."_ Please show us some of those discussions. The truth is that YOU FOLKS always start these arguments. We don't badmouth the so−called "kinder gentler methods" until you start to badmouth our methods. 

And I know that many times I've written something like, _"Try the advice that's been given (advice to use the so−called "kinder gentler methods") and IF THEY DON'T GIVE RESULTS IN A TIMELY MANNER then try (the Ecollar)."_ It's doesn’t get much less intrusive, yet still giving an opinion, than that. I NEVER (and I don't recall anyone else doing it either) come in describing the problems with the so−called "kinder gentler methods" or decrying them as the antis do with great frequency. OFTEN when that happens, the followers of the so−called "kinder gentler methods" do, as you've done here, pile on the information against the use of the tool. *Please note AGAIN, this OP had used an Ecollar years ago, was happy with his results, and ONLY was looking to see if there was anything new on the market. *YOU folks started citing reference after reference, as to why he should not use an Ecollar. Thanks for making my point!


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

kwhit said:


> And that is exactly why, IMO, e-collars should not be available to everyone that wants one. They should be allowed only if those owners that want one agree to an extensive training course in their proper use. Personally, I wish they didn't exist, but they do, so those wanting to use one should learn _exactly_ how to use them.


I think that this is absurd. Mess up with an Ecollar and you cause a dog some unnecessary pain, but not any physical injury. Mess up with a buckle collar, a choke chain, a pinch collar and you cause the dog some unnecessary pain AND the very real possibility of serious physical injury. Mess up with treats and you get an overweight dog and that places his entire health in jeopardy. Mess up with a toy and you could get it lodged in the dog's throat, causing him to suffocate. Allow him to get to certain toys and he tears them up, and ingests one, and you could get a blockage. 

Are you seeing that ANY tool has risks inherent in its use? You can't legislate the world into a safe place, no matter how hard you try or how much you wish it was so. 

I agree that anyone who wants to use an Ecollar get some instruction on how to do so. That's why I put up my site, to educate those who want it.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> Walter,
> 
> That is a new product on the market, so there really aren't going to be many people with extensive direct experience with the product.


You're right that it's a relatively _"new product"_ on the market. And you're also right that _"there really aren't going to be many people with extensive direct experience with the product."_ But I'm here, and I have _"extensive direct experience with the product."_



Swampcollie said:


> Good Electronic Collars as a rule are expensive due to the conditions they have to perform in. They do take a beating. There are a lot of cheap electronic collars on the market, some priced as low as $25. Put simply, they're JUNK and I wouldn't put one of them on my dog.


I wish the junk products didn't exist. They usually work well for a short time, even though they have very limited features and a small number of stim levels, but after being dropped a few times, carried around in the trunk of a car and having the dog smash them into various objects, they become unreliable. But given that there's always someone to whom price is more important than quality, there will always be a market for them. 



Swampcollie said:


> Looking at the price point and information available online about the Einstein, I suspect it isn't very robust in design or construction.


Here's where you go wrong. _"Looking at the price point and information available online"_ tells you nothing about how _"robust in design or construction"_ they are. IN FACT, I've tortured several units and they passed with flying colors. This included dropping them repeatedly from a height of 8' onto hard surfaces like cement and asphalt. Leaving them overnight in a sinkful of water several times. Having a dog wear them who likes to scrap his body (and thus the Ecollar receiver) against chain link fences, the stucco side of a house, concrete block walls and wooden fences. I've even stood on one of my transmitters! They're easily the equal of units from Dogtra or Tri-Tronics. And they carry the same warranty as both of those companies. Their customer service is excellent. They'll even build a unit with some custom features if you like! I don't know of another company who will do that. 



Swampcollie said:


> I won't be plopping down my hard earned money on one anytime soon. They look to employ similar construction to DT, Innotek, Sportdog and Petsafe,


Pray tell, what are the _"similar construction"_ features that you noted and how are they different say, from Tri-Tronics and Dogtra? And how can you tell this from some photos on the Net? 



Swampcollie said:


> I started using E Collars a long time ago, Starting with Max #1. I'm starting Max #4 now, so a few decades have passed since then. Einstein may turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread, but the school of hard knocks tells me probably not. If it was made to last it would cost a heck of a lot more money.


I too started with Ecollar quite some time ago, a couple of decades now. I don't think that the Einstein will prove to be _"the best thing since sliced bread"_ but they don't need to be. They have some very interesting, very useful features that many pet owners, and professional alike will find very useful. Some that no other brands have. I have no doubt that they'll last just as long as, and be just as reliable as the other top brands on the market, the Dogtras and the Tri-Tronics. 

I was at a month−long seminar earlier this year, where the trainer used one Einstein unit the whole time. It was used on nine dogs throughout the day for most of that month. It was dropped, stepped on, immersed in water, used during weather that ranged between the 100's and the mid 30's (hey, it's California we don't let it get too cold here. lol) and slammed into walls, fences, decoys (the guy that the dogs bite during that kind or training). It never skipped a beat. I've been using one for well over a year now and it's just as tough as the other top brands. 



Swampcollie said:


> I would suggest looking for a E Collar with a long proven track record of success before putting down your hard earned money.


I think that the Einsteins have been around long enough to have a _"long proven track record of success."_ It's not decades long, but it's plenty long enough for me, especially given the "accelerated" wear test I've put it through. People said that same sort of thing about the Dogtras when they first came out. Now they're one of the industry giants. I have no doubt that Einstein will join them. 

One of us has experienced extensive use of the tool, the other has looked at them online. I leave it to the readers to decide which of has a better handle on this.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

walter1956 said:


> Holy Cow, didn't think I'd get so many responses. I'm the one that asked about e-collars, and I'm glad I did. Really did not want to read studies from companies that make the produce, wanted to ask real peolpe about them. As I posted, I've used a set 7 years ago, 99% of the time with the beeper fuction, worked really well, especially when walking with no leash and 2 dogs. I live in the country, so it's how I want to walk my dogs. The new produce I read about was the Eindtein collar with a thumping action ?? As I said, I'm glad I asked, and thank you Lou Castle for your post. Walt and Vicki, along with 7 year ago Torrie and 11 week ago Bella


ROFL. Welcome to the GR Forum Walter. We see this sort of thing just fairly often when the topic of Ecollars comes up. Often the discussion turn rude and it becomes more about one-upmanship than reality. 

Glad I was able to help. My last post should provide you with some more information about the Ecollar that you asked about. If you want more details, please contact me privately. I'll give you my phone number and you can call. There's too much info to write it all out, especially after dealing with the antis.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

kwhit said:


> Oh...and I don't need the government to decide what I believe is abuse.


Earlier you wrote that you wanted people who want to use an Ecollar to be required to undergo extensive training. Only the government has the ability to force something like this. 

But now you tell us that the government can't be trusted to define abuse, but you think they can handle this sort of regulation? Seems a bit contradictory to me


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Lou, you crack me up! Let me make sure I got all this right.... Studies that agree with you come from unbiased sources but ones that disagree come from "HIGHLY" biased ones.


Perhaps you wouldn't find it so amusing if you read CAREFULLY what I had written. I'll put it up again, emphasizing the parts that you obviously missed. 

Earlier I wrote,


> * Actually the evidence works BOTH ways. *


See how that works, I'm saying that there are biased studies on both sides of the fence. 

Earlier I wrote,


> *SOME* of the evidence in favor of Ecollars, comes from unbiased sources, while *MOST*of the evidence against them comes from HIGHLY biased sources.


Notice that *SOME *of the evidence in favor of Ecollars comes from unbiased sources. That means that * SOME * of the evidence in favor of them comes from sources that are just as biased as are *MOST * of the evidence against them. Much of the funding that results in pro Ecollar findings comes from Ecollar manufacturers, obviously a biased source. Much of the funding that results in anti Ecollar findings comes from groups and individuals who oppose the use of the Ecollar. Obviously just as biased. 

Earlier I wrote,


> That's why I recommend talking to people who have used the Ecollar successfully and are happy with their results. Those folks have used the Ecollar properly and are far better sources of information about them, than biased scientific studies or organizations with axes to grind on either side of the question.


Most of those folks went into Ecollars quite unsure of whether or not they were doing the right thing. Those who like their results, came out the other side glad that they took the plunge. Many of them were at their wit's end, having tried other methods and had them fail. Few people with a dog, wake up in the morning and decide to use an Ecollar on them, out of the blue. Often, it's a last resort. Who better to ask? 



Jersey's Mom said:


> We should only ask people who agree with your way of thinking.


I was quite clear, (still am BTW) that you should ask BOTH sides. But it's best to go to the source, not some disembodied, scientific study, that may have been done with an agenda in mind. 



Jersey's Mom said:


> And while accepting all this, we should completely ignore your own personal and financial biases that are at stake (as you slyly plug your website and encourage people to contact you "privately" for more info). Is that right? Ok, got it!


At one time I was just as much opposed to Ecollars as many here. The difference is that I had an open mind. I investigated the possibilities by traveling to see how this work could be done properly, instead of blindly accepting biased opinions and accepting only studies that supported my position. I closely watched the work and made my own decisions. NOW I'm highly biased in favor of the Ecollar. I've seen the work and have done it literally thousands of times with dozens of breeds (including GR's). I've trained thousands of owners how to properly use the tool and interestingly, have not had one of them dissatisfied with the results! I offer a full money back guarantee to anyone who is not satisfied with my training or their results. Never has anyone asked. How many other trainers do you know who offer a "money back" guarantee? 

The mods have decided that because I mention on my site that I sell Ecollars and that I do seminars, that I can't post a link to it. They claim that those two statements make it "a commercial website." I disagree but it's not my decision. But obviously they allow people to contact me privately for more information about Ecollars. I can convey more information in an hour on the phone than, I can in ten hours here. It's a much better use of my time.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

I'm not going to piecemeal your whole post because I have a ton of work to do before I go to work this morning (yeah, it's been one of those weeks). Just 2 quick comments:

You said:


> Notice that SOME of the evidence in favor of Ecollars comes from unbiased sources. That means that SOME of the evidence in favor of them comes from sources that are just as biased as are MOST of the evidence against them. Much of the funding that results in pro Ecollar findings comes from Ecollar manufacturers, obviously a biased source. Much of the funding that results in anti Ecollar findings comes from groups and individuals who oppose the use of the Ecollar. Obviously just as biased.


I see a lot of truth in the last 3 sentences of this paragraph. Where I wholeheartedly disagree is that somehow at the end of that there is so much more research from "unbiased sources" that favors the ecollar. I've yet to see you direct anyone to this large body of research. Where is it?



> The mods have decided that because I mention on my site that I sell Ecollars and that I do seminars, that I can't post a link to it. They claim that those two statements make it "a commercial website." I disagree but it's not my decision. But obviously they allow people to contact me privately for more information about Ecollars. I can convey more information in an hour on the phone than, I can in ten hours here. It's a much better use of my time.


You may disagree, but many of us don't. I can't figure out how there is any difference between you repeatedly mentioning your site (right down to your "money back guarantee") while requesting people contact you directly and if you had just come out and posted a link to it. It's not a very subtle move. 

Regardless, in all this you've not actually addressed the fact that you have a very strong financial bias in these discussions. How do you pay your bills? By training these thousands of dogs with ecollars, putting on seminars and selling the collars themselves. If tomorrow, every person on earth decided not to use one (which won't happen... I'm really stretching the hypothetical here), what would you do? Your financial bias is much stronger than that of the AVSAB or the other groups Tippy sited. Reaching for some indirect financial motive when your own is so very obvious and direct seems disingenuous to me.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Lou Castle said:


> I specifically said, _"Vets."_ You've tried to move the goalposts to a very small subgroup of vets, _"certified veterinary behaviorists."_ And BTW, being a behaviorist does not make one a dog trainer, or necessarily give one any knowledge of how to train a dog. My original statement was and still is accurate. _"Vets typically know very little about dog training, particularly in the US."_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know, that's a great point! There are quite a few ecollar users on the forum, yet I can't recall a single instance of someone reporting that their dog was shut down by an ecollar, or that it didn't work. I remember one individual saying they gave the dog one nick, and scared their dog too much, so they stopped using it. That doesn't sound like proper conditioning to me, but whatever. It's the only example I can think of where someone wasn't happy with their ecollar experience. 


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nairb said:


> You know, that's a great point! There are quite a few ecollar users on the forum, yet I can't recall a single instance of someone reporting that their dog was shut down by an ecollar, or that it didn't work. I remember one individual saying they gave the dog one nick, and scared their dog too much, so they stopped using it. That doesn't sound like proper conditioning to me, but whatever. It's the only example I can think of where someone wasn't happy with their ecollar experience.


Really? You don't remember any new people showing up and saying "we tried everything with this behavior" and specifically included the e-collar as one of the things they tried that failed? Or anybody discussing the use of their e-collar in one thread and then asking for help in another thread because their dog has become reactive? Or somebody who makes it clear they're happy in one thread with the behavioral shaping they got from the e-collar, but then mentions in another how their dog shuts down during training? Maybe I'm more on the lookout for threads like these, but I notice them pretty consistently, and I'm always at a loss for what to say to the person.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> If people use a tool improperly, without training or education, I'd expect them not to be happy, NO MATTER WHAT TOOL/METHOD they tried. This forum HAS DOZENS of such posts from people who have tried the so−called "kinder gentler methods" and have NOT liked their results. Can you point us to someone here, or anywhere who has used the Ecollar, with my methods and is unhappy with their results?


Can you point to one where somebody on GRF used your methods at all? Happily or otherwise?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> I specifically said, _"Vets."_ You've tried to move the goalposts to a very small subgroup of vets, _"certified veterinary behaviorists."_ And BTW, being a behaviorist does not make one a dog trainer, or necessarily give one any knowledge of how to train a dog. My original statement was and still is accurate. _"Vets typically know very little about dog training, particularly in the US."_


I was always talking about the AVSAB, which is an organization of veterinary behaviorists. Nobody mentioned vets in general except you.



Lou Castle said:


> I don't recall seeing a direct report from an owner on this forum of the sort of drastic failures when they used an Ecollar that we see with other tools/methods. Yet the stories of complete failures with the so−called "kinder gentler methods" abound! Can you direct me to an Ecollar user who has such a tale to tell on this forum?


Maybe that's because you don't participate on the forum except in e-collar arguments, so you only really end up in threads where the OP is interested in using one. Plenty of threads on this forum have a post that says "we stopped using an e-collar because..." or something along those lines.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Probably one of the strongest advocates for the Ecollar on this forum. You and some others frequently, as now, put up information from supposedly reputable sources, that promise all sorts of horrorshows if the Ecollar, or for that matter any form of +P is used.


Well, no, that's not what I did. I cited four high reputable organizations who advocate, to differing degrees, opinions against the use of the e-collar. No horrorshows at all, just lots of material from highly reputable institutions who've done a lot of research that suggests that the e-collar is not a first-line good tool for teaching or for solving common behavioral issues.

If somebody else suggests a horrorshow, feel free to let 'em have it. I'm just suggesting that it's an inferior tool for teaching behaviors or for solving common behavioral issues.



Lou Castle said:


> I'd bet that just about every time that's occurred, it's been in a thread that was about the Ecollar or where Ecollar use was suggested, and that person came in against the Ecollar. Since you seem the think that Ecollar users DO _"intrude on discussions of the so−called 'kinder gentler methods,' telling those folks that they should use Ecollars."_ Please show us some of those discussions. The truth is that YOU FOLKS always start these arguments. We don't badmouth the so−called "kinder gentler methods" until you start to badmouth our methods.


This is a really interesting disconnect, because I feel like you, in particular, mock these methods. The number of times you've sarcastically said "so-called 'kindler gentler methods,'" for example, is quite high. And there are several other e-collar advocates on this forum who have stepped into discussions that were specifically about not using it and been fairly unkind or sarcastic. It does happen fairly regularly.

Perhaps you don't feel the need to join in on clicker discussions argue about its side effects because because nobody has brought a dog to you who was reduced to a nervous, helpless wreck by one? The worst I see with bad reward-based training is that the dog doesn't get trained. The worst I see with bad e-collar training is that the dog doesn't get trained _and_ the dog has a whole mess of side effects, many sad to watch and some outright dangerous. I can understand why you might not have anti-cookie feelings as strong as my anti-stim feelings.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> Really? You don't remember any new people showing up and saying "we tried everything with this behavior" and specifically included the e-collar as one of the things they tried that failed? Or anybody discussing the use of their e-collar in one thread and then asking for help in another thread because their dog has become reactive? Or somebody who makes it clear they're happy in one thread with the behavioral shaping they got from the e-collar, but then mentions in another how their dog shuts down during training? Maybe I'm more on the lookout for threads like these, but I notice them pretty consistently, and I'm always at a loss for what to say to the person.


No. I have not seen those.

I put up a new thread so those folks can tell their story here: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-training/186898-negative-ecollar-reports.html


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Earlier you wrote that you wanted people who want to use an Ecollar to be required to undergo extensive training. Only the government has the ability to force something like this.
> 
> But now you tell us that the government can't be trusted to define abuse, but you think they can handle this sort of regulation? Seems a bit contradictory to me


I addressed this in an earlier post...


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Lou Castle said:


> *Please note AGAIN, this OP had used an Ecollar years ago, was happy with his results, and ONLY was looking to see if there was anything new on the market. *YOU folks started citing reference after reference, as to why he should not use an Ecollar.



Thank you! This pretty much sums it up.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Really? You don't remember any new people showing up and saying "we tried everything with this behavior" and specifically included the e-collar as one of the things they tried that failed? Or anybody discussing the use of their e-collar in one thread and then asking for help in another thread because their dog has become reactive? Or somebody who makes it clear they're happy in one thread with the behavioral shaping they got from the e-collar, but then mentions in another how their dog shuts down during training? Maybe I'm more on the lookout for threads like these, but I notice them pretty consistently, and I'm always at a loss for what to say to the person.


I have never known you to be at a loss of words and I'm almost positive you would had made those threads up front and center to prove your point! LOL!
I only know of the rattlesnake aversion thread. And we don't even know if the training has anything to do with the noise reaction. It possibly could have. But that noise reaction could possibly save her life also.

There are threads almost DAILY on GRF with people struggling and failing with training techniques that don't involve the ecollar. One recently said her husband wants to get rid of the dog. These are threads WE ALL SEE. I am happy to know there are training alternatives out there that could save dogs from injury and sometimes death without ill effects.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I have never known you to be at a loss of words and I'm almost positive you would had made those threads up front and center to prove your point! LOL!


I don't want to drag people into the discussion who currently aren't interested in participating, so I'm not going to name names or link to threads. You can search if you're interested, and I'd be stunned if you didn't know how to use the search function well enough to find threads where people used the e-collar and then gave it up. 

However, there is definitely a person I think of when I think of somebody advocating for e-collars in one thread and then talking about problems in others without seeing the connection, and that person is certainly participating, since it's you.

You have made it clear on many occasions that your dogs wear their e-collars their whole lives and that you _rarely_ (but not never) use the stim once they're trained. What is the point of a piece of equipment that your dog never graduates from? If you can't ultimately graduate to just voice and praise, I don't think it's a strong vote for the equipment. You've made it clear that it's more than just insurance and that you do use the stim. 

You also talk repeatedly about your previous dog's anxiety and how you could never improve it. Now, I think I remember that the dog was anxious from very early in his life, probably for a long time before you used the e-collar, but I always wonder if the fact that you could never condition him out of his phobias was related to the training with the e-collar.

So, until you asked directly like this, I felt it might be rude to call you out, and instead I tried to be helpful or stay out of your way, since I know you'll never consider the possibility that the collar might not be the asset to you that you see it as. But you did ask for an example, so there you go.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

PS - here's one of your own posts about how using the stim can backfire, in response to a person who was talking about having it backfire.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I don't want to drag people into the discussion who currently aren't interested in participating, so I'm not going to name names or link to threads. You can search if you're interested, and I'd be stunned if you didn't know how to use the search function well enough to find threads where people used the e-collar and then gave it up.
> 
> However, there is definitely a person I think of when I think of somebody advocating for e-collars in one thread and then talking about problems in others without seeing the connection, and that person is certainly participating, since it's you.
> 
> ...


My previous dog was anxious? LMAO! That dog didn't have an anxious bone in his body. He was high prey driven and our trainer recommended the collar AFTER we almost lost him in the middle of the desert. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. You just lost all credibility now FTLOG!

Did he wear it all the time while off leash? You bet he did. Did I have to nic him? I don't recall the last time I did. Why? Because he was trained . Why you ask did he wear it all the time while on our off leash walks? Because of MY piece of mind. I am a realist and knew he was a high prey driven ANIMAL. That same dog was off leash everyday in my front yard without that collar and would not step over his boundaries.

Edit to say Cody was afraid of thunder and fireworks ever since he was a puppy BEFORE the use of the collar if that was the anxiety you were talking about. Wyatt could care less about those noises .


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Guys, I know this subject can get heated and there have been a lot of discussions in the past on the issue. Let's try to keep this thread on topic. The OP was asking for brand recommendations for e-collars, as a reminder.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> ps - here's one of your own posts about how using the stim can backfire, in response to a person who was talking about having it backfire.


i have always said if you decide to use the ecollar you need to have your dog professionally conditioned. And obviousy i was right.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> My previous dog was anxious? LMAO! That dog didn't have an anxious bone in his body. He was high prey driven and our trainer recommended the collar AFTER we almost lost him in the middle of the desert. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. You just lost all credibility now FTLOG!
> 
> Did he wear it all the time while off leash? You bet he did. Did I have to nic him? I don't recall the last time I did. Why? Because he was trained . Why you ask did he wear it all the time while on our off leash walks? Because of MY piece of mind. I am a realist and knew he was a high prey driven ANIMAL. That same dog was off leash everyday in my front yard without that collar and would not step over his boundaries.


Sorry - I remember you talking about a dog named Cody who was sound phobic his whole life with things like fireworks and wind and how you had to get sedatives and/or anti-anxiety meds. I guess I misremembered.

I guess I also misremembered you talking about occasionally having to nick Wyatt still. My mistake.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Sorry - I remember you talking about a dog named Cody who was sound phobic his whole life with things like fireworks and wind and how you had to get sedatives and/or anti-anxiety meds. I guess I misremembered.
> 
> I guess I also misremembered you talking about occasionally having to nick Wyatt still. My mistake.


Read my edit. That is what happens when you assume.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> Sorry - I remember you talking about a dog named Cody who was sound phobic his whole life with things like fireworks and wind and how you had to get sedatives and/or anti-anxiety meds. I guess I misremembered.
> 
> I guess I also misremembered you talking about occasionally having to nick Wyatt still. My mistake.


I don't no anything about Cody, but it's hardly reasonable to assume that any issue a dog may have is because of an ecollar. Lots of dogs that have never worn an ecollar or prong collar have phobias or behavioral problems. 


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Nairb said:


> I don't no anything about Cody, but it's hardly reasonable to assume that any issue a dog may have is because of an ecollar. Lots of dogs that have never worn an ecollar or prong collar have phobias or behavioral problems.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This is where alot of the mis info comes from. Assumptions. I didn't start Cody on the collar until well over a year. Obviously he has been thru a few storms before that.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Guys, this is the second reminder. Please keep the thread on topic or it will be closed.


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## elly (Nov 21, 2010)

Can I please remind you of GoldenJackpuppys reminder to stay on topic. Please stay on topic. The op asked for advice,...please answer their question or do not post in this thread as it is at risk of being closed now. Thank you.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nairb said:


> I don't no anything about Cody, but it's hardly reasonable to assume that any issue a dog may have is because of an ecollar. Lots of dogs that have never worn an ecollar or prong collar have phobias or behavioral problems.


I didn't say it was _because of_ the collar, and obviously there's no way to prove it either way. In the situation in question, the dog had the phobia _before_ being trained on an e-collar, and I was clear that I understood that in my first post. But there were many requests for examples, and that's an example of a situation in which I wonder if the collar was making it worse. The literature is very clear that these issues that can be created or worsened by displaced anxiety and classically conditioned responses to punishment, so I see the _potential_ for a connection.

It's something people should consider when they buy this kind of tool, which is all I've been saying in this thread. I haven't called it abusive or even said it's never a good tool. There may be plenty of situations where it does more good than harm, but the potential for harm is certainly there, even if the user does not intend harm to the dog. Professional guidance can certainly help lower the risks as compared to simply putting it on your dog and experimenting, but many self-proclaimed experts are simply hacks trying to parlay their limited experience into some dollars.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I am closing this, in the future please keep threads on topic.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Sorry - I didn't see the reminders to stay on topic because I was typing. I'm done.


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