# Does AKC really matter if OFA, CERF clearances are done?



## Heart Of Gold

Hi there everyone!

I'm in the process of researching breeders and pedigrees so we can find the perfect pup for our family. I have contacted several reputable conformation breeders within 4 hours from me. They all charge $1,200--1,500 for a puppy. And, of course they do all the health clearances, etc. They also show in conformation. Which also means they often co-own the dam with someone else. And many times the puppies are whelped and raised at the co-owners. I understand that, but the breeder doesn't really get to have day to day interaction with the pups, especially if they're out of state.

So, I think I may have found a good compromise. I'll let you tell me what you think.

As a rule I would never buy a Golden retriever from a newspaper ad. Most of them are puppymill-type situations, particularly when you see the same ad all the time. Well, yesterday I happened to pick up the classified section of a large newspaper published in a city an hour and a half away from me. I read a few Golden ads that didn't appeal to me. BUT, I came across one that stated they do OFA, CERF, heart testing. $1.000. The sire is from champion lines, as well as the dam. Their website shows some very nice dogs. Big boned with blonde coats. Great temperament. When I spoke to this breeder she told me that because her male is on limited registration his pups cannot be registered with the AKC. I know some people really feel they have to have that AKC especially if they paid big bucks. Trouble is, some of these same people don't bother or educate themselves to ask about some other MORE important initials" OFA, CERF and heart clearances.

If I find that I really like this breeder and her dogs, should I go ahead and purchase her without the benefit of the American Kennel Association? certificate? If I'm not going to show her, does AKC really matter in the big scheme of things? She also has a 30 month and 26 month guarantees.


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## Joe

I hope this helps a bit:

*From the DOG OWNER's guide:*

What does AKC registration really mean?
The American Kennel Club is the oldest purebred dog registry in the US. AKC registered more than 1.3 million purebred dogs and more than 550 thousand litters in its 145 breeds in 1997. The top 10 breeds (Labrador Retriever, Rottweiler, German Shepherd, *Golden Retriever*, Poodle, Beagle, Dachshund, Cocker Spaniel, Yorkshire terrier, and Pomeranian) accounted for more than 560 thousand of the total individual registrations. 
Most people who breed purebred dogs claim some affiliation with a registry as a seal of quality for their puppies. *Many use that affiliation as a marketing tool, but buyers often learn the hard way that an AKC puppy purchased from a pet store or a backyard breeder is highly unlikely to be of the same caliber as an AKC registered puppy purchased from a reliable breeder. *

Read more on AKC registration and that it might not be a mark of quality: http://www.canismajor.com/dog/akc.html

But on the other hand 'Yes' the AKC provides a good and relatively easy way to keep track of pedigrees and championships and whatnot.

Joe


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## monomer

When we were looking for puppies the summer before last, one of the breeders I called (from a newspaper ad) had a litter currently available but they were NOT AKC register-able. The situation as she explained it was... she had a young bitch coming into her first heat and so was keeping her confined in a kennel... well somehow this smart dog had figured out how to 'pick' the lock and got free at some point. The 'breakout' was not discovered for several hours and yes, it resulted in a pregnancy. The breeder said there were only 3 possibilities on who the sire was. Two were Champion Goldens that belong to her but the other possibility was a Golden Retriever-looking dog from a mile down the road who happen to be seen on the property that day. So because of the unknown identity of the sire she could not register the litter with AKC and could not sell them as AKC registerable pups. Now that was a very honest woman... because I thought about it... how difficult would it have been to simply choose one of her dogs as the sire? Nothing to it, just slap the name on the application form and attach a check and no one would know the difference... all 3 males were Golden Retrievers right? As far as I know there is no verification process, no DNA test, no one from AKC ever sees these pups... after all the AKC is just a for-profit business... if the check clears the bank the litter gets registered, end-of-story. The sire could have been a St.Bernard for all they know, and the truth is I've seen many Golden Retrievers who do NOT even fit into the standard but are nevertheless AKC registered.

I personally would want to see that the parents have health clearances, meet the dam and spend at least an hour with her and then at least see a picture of the sire (though it'd be better if he were also on the premises). I also would ask for the names/phone numbers of at least two owners who have purchased pups from a previous mating of the same two dogs or at the very least pups from any breeding by that breeder. If you don't plan on showing or breeding then where is the advantage of an AKC registration? Where the AKC registration comes in handy is when trying to get a 'fix' on the lineage health history. Though the true heritage of any given litter is open to possible fraud (as the case above could have ended), if the breeder seems to be a reasonably honest person and you have talked to (or better yet have seen the pups of) other owners of pups from this breeder then the health info gleaned from the AKC registration should be quite reassuring.

Our Sidney came from a classified ad in the paper, his parents were AKC, the majority of his ancestors (back 5-generations) had OFA clearances of 'Good' or better, CERF'ed, and vet 'inspected' and given a 'clean bill-of -health', came with first set of shots and a year health garantee... which by my way of thinking, does give me some peace of mind knowing that the breeder is willing to stand by the quality of this litter, even though I would NEVER return an animal for a refund or exchange like it were merchandize... however I would definitely solicit monetary funds to help pay vet bills in the case of a genetic defect showing up (you might want to think about getting something along those lines inserted as a clause in the puppy purchase agreement before you sign).

EDIT: BTW, we purchased our Sidney for $350... and it was the best money we've ever spent. The thing is, we were actually prepared to paid up to $2000 and travel anywhere in the U.S. or Canada to get our 'perfect' puppy... and yet we found him within a 30-minute drive and for so little. Just because the breeder runs an ad in the paper doesn't mean its a puppy mill... go visit the breeders first, talk to them, see the dogs and inspect the kennels AND THEN decide if its a puppy mill.


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## greg bell

The only reason I care about AKC is the fact that many functions that you may get into requre it. You may not think so now, but at some point you may decide you want to particiapte in agility, obedience, or hunt tests or somthing and you would not be able to without the AKC registration.
I am assuming this is true of agility and obedience, I can only speak with certainy about hunt tests or field trials. 
At this price, I would want the registration. I am really not being snobbish here, It just gives you more options down the road.


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## monomer

Well Greg, I was going to mention not being able to participate in AKC agility but I didn't know if it were true for other areas such as obedience and field trials... plus there are a number of other agility organizations that allow any dog to participate... in fact, AKC is the only one that demands participating agility dogs be (AKC) registered purebreds.

Also I'd like to correct an error in my previous posting... AKC is listed as a NON-profit organization.

Below is an exerpt I got from the AKC's website...
*AKC Registration and Quality *

There is a widely held belief that "AKC" or "AKC papers" guarantee the quality of a dog. This is not the case. AKC is a registry body. A registration certificate identifies the dog as the offspring of a known sire and dam, born on a known date. It in no way indicates the quality or state of health of the dog. Quality in the sense of "show quality" is determined by many factors including the dog's health, physical condition, ability to move and appearance. Breeders breeding show stock are trying to produce animals that closely resemble the description of perfection described in the breed standard. Many people breed their dogs with no concern for the qualitative demands of the breed standard. When this occurs repeatedly over several generations, the animals, while still purebred, can be of extremely low quality. Before buying a dog, you should investigate the dog's parentage, the breeder's breeding practices, the breed standard, and the genetic tests recommended by the Parent Club for the breed


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## greg bell

Monomer is absolutely right. Buying an AKC registered dog give you no guarantee of quality of the animal. 
UKC will let you participate in their hunt tests without their registration, however you cannot earn their titles.
My dogs are dual registered (AKC and UKC) so that I can participate in the tests/trials and earn the titles.
I will admit that I am not very concerned about the breed standard insofar as the looks of the dog is concerned when I buy a pup. I am much more interested in birdiness, intensity, tractibility, and temprament. 
Honestly, I (that is me personally) would be very careful about confirmation goldens. I would make sure that the breeder was concerned about tractibility and temprament before buying one for a pet. And before everyone lights up on me, I would do the same if buying from a field breeder. 
I would look very carefully at the pedigree and learn all I could about the dogs in it. Including how long they lived and any health issues including OFA, CERF, thyroid, heart, allergies, etc. If the breeder doesn't have this information, then look for one that does. Breeders should know the dogs they are breeding. Otherwise, they are just producing pups for profit.


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## Goldndust

That is not true, the male should be able to be registered providing they follow the aggreement they signed upon getting this male. Responsible breeders will sometimes put there pups on a limited registration too keep there lines clean, and prevent breedings from taking place that should not. Once the stipulations are met, the breeder will sign off the paperwork.

I would question why that paperwork isn't signed off. And I would never put out a 1,000 bucks on a dog with no papers.


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## greg bell

some limited registrations are held until all health clearances. It could be that the male is too young and cannot yet get OFA.


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## Heart Of Gold

*He is almost THREE and has clearances*

This male will be 3 years old soon and he has all his clearances and passed. GOOD hips done when he was 2 years old. NORMAL CERF this year 2005 and NORMAL heart in 2004. He has a sound pedigree with champion lines and well-known dogs. So this is why I wonder WHY he is NOT on full registration. I have a inquiry into his breeder asking about this. So far, no reply. I am very curious, though.




greg bell said:


> some limited registrations are held until all health clearances. It could be that the male is too young and cannot yet get OFA.


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## monomer

Heart of Gold... because of this thread, I've had to do some research and have learn quite a bit about AKC registrations... Thanks.

Greg Bell... evidently there is a thing called an Indefinite Listing Privilege Program that allows dogs who cannot be registered with AKC to still participate in all AKC Companion and Performance Events but they must still be purebreds and cannot be shown in conformation.



I've learned that Limited Registrations are meant to allow a breeder to have some control over their breeding program and the kennel's name without resorting to neutering very young puppies (and there are some REAL issues involved with this practice as well). Some of the reasons I came across as to why a breeder might want to use a Limited Registration with a litter of pups... The breeder can prevent puppy mill owners from trying to obtain a pup to use in a 'breeding factory'. They can try keeping the quality of the kennel's name by preventing a sub-standard specimen from being bred and registered with the kennel's lineage. They have a chance to see if the puppies have any expressed defects at maturity before allowing breeding. Maybe the particular breeding was a mistake so these dogs carry a recessive gene for some terrible defect that may potentially be expressed in the next generation of puppies, etc... there are so many possiblities...

Since only the original breeder can have the Limited Registration changed to a Full Registration, I gotta ask the question, "Why didn't the original breeder want that particular dog to be bred?" I would ask to see the sire's AKC papers and then just make a mental note of the Kennel/Owner's name and city/state so you can contact them later to ask that question. I would then at the end of the visit ask these people selling the pups if they would give me the name and phone number of the sire's breeder... if they balk or lie at all, I would forget about purchasing one these puppies.

And in retrospect, I think I'll agree with Goldndust... "I would never put out a 1,000 bucks on a dog with no papers."


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## Heart Of Gold

Thanks for your long and informative post!

I already know who the breeder of the sire is. I have talked with her in the past inquiring if she would have any pups in the future. She is a reputable breeder with nice dogs. I even got positive referrals about her from a couple other good breeders. 

When I spoke to the gal who owns him and will be having some litters next year out of him, I told her I knew of the sire's breeder. I just wished I had asked her why he was still on Limited registration if he's passed all his clearances. At the time, I was just glad that she had his OFA and CERF clearances. 

I'm beginning to think you're right about paying $1,000 for a dog without AKC papers. At first I didn't think I would care as long as I knew the pup was healthy and from sound, champion lines. But, now that I read here and think about it some more, it kind of bothers me that the sire isn't on full registration. I just hope I can get some valid answers. Maybe if they were charging less it wouldn't seem like such an issue. :no: 




monomer said:


> Heart of Gold... because of this thread, I've had to do some research and have learn quite a bit about AKC registrations... Thanks.
> 
> Greg Bell... evidently there is a thing called an Indefinite Listing Privilege Program that allows dogs who cannot be registered with AKC to still participate in all AKC Companion and Performance Events but they must still be purebreds and cannot be shown in conformation.
> 
> 
> 
> I've learned that Limited Registrations are meant to allow a breeder to have some control over their breeding program and the kennel's name without resorting to neutering very young puppies (and there are some REAL issues involved with this practice as well). Some of the reasons I came across as to why a breeder might want to use a Limited Registration with a litter of pups... The breeder can prevent puppy mill owners from trying to obtain a pup to use in a 'breeding factory'. They can try keeping the quality of the kennel's name by preventing a sub-standard specimen from being bred and registered with the kennel's lineage. They have a chance to see if the puppies have any expressed defects at maturity before allowing breeding. Maybe the particular breeding was a mistake so these dogs carry a recessive gene for some terrible defect that may potentially be expressed in the next generation of puppies, etc... there are so many possiblities...
> 
> Since only the original breeder can have the Limited Registration changed to a Full Registration, I gotta ask the question, "Why didn't the original breeder want that particular dog to be bred?" I would ask to see the sire's AKC papers and then just make a mental note of the Kennel/Owner's name and city/state so you can contact them later to ask that question. I would then at the end of the visit ask these people selling the pups if they would give me the name and phone number of the sire's breeder... if they balk or lie at all, I would forget about purchasing one these puppies.
> 
> And in retrospect, I think I'll agree with Goldndust... "I would never put out a 1,000 bucks on a dog with no papers."


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## DUSTYRD2

I have to ask the same question. Why is the dog still on limited registration and why is he being bred? This breeder is breaking a legally binding contract with the breeder of her dog. She either doesn't give a rat's behind about the contract, which makes me wonder what else she doesn't give a rat's behind about, health guarantees, etc. or the breeder of the stud dog is being difficult. Responsible breeders want to control the breedings to ensure the resulting puppies are sound. It's got nothing to do with money. The original breeder must have a **** good reason for not lifting the limited reg. Either way, this dog should not be bred until it's on full registration and I would be suspect of anyone making this type of claim. And $1,000 US is WAY to much to pay for a golden that can't be registered.


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## AquaClaraCanines

If he is on limited she probably had a fight with HIS breeder who didn't lift it, or he was sold as a pet and she broke her word and is breeding him.

If he's a nice cleared dog and you like her dogs, go for it- the personal problems of the breeder and the person she bought her male from wouldn't really concern me if I didn't care about AKC papers.


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## AquaClaraCanines

I just noticed they are $1000

Yikes... I'd pass on that one!


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## greg bell

My last pup (dixie) was supposed to be on limited registration..i had legitimate reasons for not wanting legitimate registration..the breeder (who is really a good guy and breeds fine dogs if you are into the field stuff) was as stubborn as me and it almost killed the deal.. finally it came down to I wanted this pup and he wanted me to have it... I signed an agreement (no idea of the legality) where I stated I would not breed her until she was over 2 and had all her clearances.. 
I really dont like the limited registration deal unless it is for a reduced price.. it the breeder does not think I am going to do right by the pup, then they should not sell it to me..


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## nrhareiner

I personally would never buy a pup on limited registration. I like to show and like to start at 6-7 months.

As for AKC papers. I have mixed feelings about AKC. I see the need for a registration association howeve for me I feel AKC is very very lacking in this department. SO unless you are looking to show and breed the dog then I see very very little use for this registration. They could really be doing much more then they do in regards to keeping track of get and produce records and such.

Now that being said. I would not pay even $500 for a non registerd dog even with clearances as I find that even the clearences are not all that worthy. They are nice to show that the breeder is doing their best and show where that particular dog stands. Until there is an actual DNA test for all the clearances I find they are nothing but one small peace of the puzzle to picking a pup.

There are many many good breeders out there with dogs who have championships and titles with clearances and are AKC registered and the pups can be too for less then $1000 now not much less and they come with limited registration.

I would keep looking.

Heidi


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## HovawartMom

I think that,for the price you are going to pay,you want yr pup's parents to be OFA hip/elbows x-rayed.
Do remember that hip dysplegia can be caused by bad diet and too or not enough exercice.
If you want yr dog to go into any sport,you need yr dog to be AKC.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens

A dog that is sold on a limited registration is a dog that a breeder has either decided is not breeding quality (by breeder, i mean the one who originally bred the sire), or does not want their dog bred. To circumvent this, it sounds like they're just breeding anyways (although, maybe with slightly better intentions since they do clearances..i would definitely read those with a fine toothed comb), and just not registering with the AKC. I would not buy from a breeder that is breeding a dog on a limited registration.


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