# What do you do when a dog doesn't find a mark?



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I agree with everything Dan says in this regard 
I RARELY and I do mean RARELY handle on marks in training. The only time I would plan to handle on a mark is if the dog was presented with some sort of in-line or two-down-the-shore scenario, and after picking up the short bird and sent for the long bird, the dog chose to fall into the trap of going back to the short bird AOF rather than pushing long. Recalling and resending doesn't help b/c it's the same send line, gunner help is only bailing out the advanced dog (might be a good option for a green dog, though). Even handling without a correction is bailing out the advanced dog. This is something I have to revisit with Fisher all the time so now I plan to handle with a correction in this scenario.
But that's just a very small example.
In general I like the gunner to help. Here is a real basic way to remember what to do.
If the dog takes a BAD LINE (i.e. takes off toward 3 o'clock when the mark is at 10 o'clock) RECALL the dog and resend. 
If the dog takes a GOOD LINE from then on out it is between the dog and the gunner. 
If the dog stays in the AOF I will let them hunt until the cows come home. If they start to leave the AOF then it's the gunners job to get them back in the AOF (provided the dog doesn't have a previous issue of giving up early, then there needs to be a different approach). 
If it's just an innocent thing that the dog happens to hunt his way out of the AOF, then a hey hey, duck call, fake throwing motion, gunshot, whatever by the gunner can pull him back.
If the dog gives up and leaves the AOF to return to another mark then I would stop with the whistle, say NO and have the gunner get the dog's attention and bring him back in the AOF. I like this approach better than just handling, because if you handle it ceases to be a mark and any lesson about staying in the AOF is lost. If you stop the dog and then get the gunner to help he will keep hunting rather than it turning into a blind. 
I will say I don't find myself helping a whole lot with our advanced dogs. I avoid this by doing a lot of memory birds as singles first. They learn to mark on singles and doing this makes their success and confidence skyrocket. It has worked well for me.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

That's great stuff Anney! I really like your basic way to remember what to do.
If the dog is still in the AOF, Dan, too, will let them hunt on and on and on as long as they are diligently hunting. He told me once that the bird scent is like when someone lights a cigarette in the room. At first you don't smell it, but after a while the smell spreads out more and more, and you start to smell it. He said bird smell is the same, sometimes it takes a while for it to spread out enough for the dog to find it, especially pheasants which don't have much smell.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Different with advanced dogs than it is for more novice dogs. 

With young dogs like Bonnie, I want the help out in the field--and I also want to consider what the cover is like where the bird is landing. If they have to punch through a bunch of crap to get there then I want the bird obvious once they get there.

For my big dogs I try to avoid running what I think of as "exercise marks." I try to select a concept or skill to work on when we go out to train and I keep a log of skills we have worked and the dogs' proficiency with them. Difficult concept birds should be taught as singles first. I will handle the dog with a strong "No here" back to the point where they made the bad choice if they cave to a factor or cheat. If I know they have the memory and tools to actually do the mark I will handle on it to get that lesson in--I want them to have that correction so they are aware they made a bad decision, particularly if it is due to lack of effort. But then I will repeat the concept until they can do it well before I will incorporate that into a multiple, where the same thing applies. If their body language is telling me they really do not know then I will reset and rethrow. But that is for dogs doing Master work.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

thanks Shelly, I was hoping you'd join in. So even for dogs at the master level, if they really really don't know where it is, you would call them all the way back in and reset and rethrow?


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

It really depends on skill level and why the dog got off-track and where. As long as she stays in the general area she can hunt up a storm and I will wait. If the initial take off is poor (completely wrong direction) I would just resend. If it is good and she's veering off then the bumper boy can help. I haven't tried to handle and I haven't had the desire because in my mind we are doing marking drills, not handling drills. If she needs help I like to re-run the mark so the last one was more solid.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> What do you people do when the dog doesn't find a difficult mark?


Well, since no one else is asking, I will; which dog? In what situation? Is it chronic? Is it a certain type of concept, or bird placement issue? What is the history of the dog?

All of those would, or should be determinants in how you would treat a missed mark or prolonged hunt. No 'one-size-fits-all' solutions.

EvanG


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

sterregold said:


> For my big dogs I try to avoid running what I think of as "exercise marks."


Shelly this made me laugh (and agree).
There is a woman down here who used to train with us frequently, her dogs were very undertrained, she didn't take field stuff seriously, they weren't FF'd very well and although she zapped them they weren't CC'd, terrible cheaters, add to that she was an awful bird boy, always distracting or lost in space. If given advice she would try it once then go right back to the same old baloney. It was very frustrating!!! I finally realized that all she was doing by coming to training was EXERCISING HER DOGS. Once I came to that conclusion I gave up all illusion of accomplishing some training and she had a fine time EXERCISING HER DOGS. LOL!!!!

But your point is a good one, and that is, to make EACH mark count for SOMETHING. What good is a mark if it doesn't teach or strengthen some skill in the dog? It's just exercise. Granted one dog's lesson may be another dog's exercise, but I feel it has really helped my training to make each mark have some difficult factor to it, do them as singles first then run it as a multiple. Suddenly you have a dog who is running difficult marks as memory birds and nailing them. (I know not everyone ascribes to this but I feel it has worked for me.)


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

ah, Evan, in my original post I did say it's not a dog that has a chronic problem, just a dog that runs into a very difficult mark and cant find it. I said assume a fairly novice dog.
You get a sit-nick-sit for lack of focus, LOLOL.




EvanG said:


> Well, since no one else is asking, I will; which dog? In what situation? Is it chronic? Is it a certain type of concept, or bird placement issue? What is the history of the dog?
> 
> All of those would, or should be determinants in how you would treat a missed mark or prolonged hunt. No 'one-size-fits-all' solutions.
> 
> EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I've posted in a lot of Tito's training threads that this is exactly what Dan does. When he sets up the marks for the day, he is training a particular concept, such as running up/down a steep hill, cover changes, crosswinds, marks falling behind the tree line, and so on. He doesn't just go out and set up marks at random. 
I don't know enough to really do it the way he does, but he always explains it to me so when we try to set up something I can at least duplicate what he was working on.

ETA---and this is sort of what made me think to wonder how people deal with it when the dog doesn't find the mark. We are working on a concept/factors/suction/flares (heehee, did I get them all, Anney??) and if he were immune to all of them, well, he'd be running field trials not working on SH. But we intentionally set up a reasonably difficult mark, to work on something in particular, and once in a while they don't find the mark because of how we set it up.
I am babbling.





K9-Design said:


> Shelly this made me laugh (and agree).
> There is a woman down here who used to train with us frequently, her dogs were very undertrained, she didn't take field stuff seriously, they weren't FF'd very well and although she zapped them they weren't CC'd, terrible cheaters, add to that she was an awful bird boy, always distracting or lost in space. If given advice she would try it once then go right back to the same old baloney. It was very frustrating!!! I finally realized that all she was doing by coming to training was EXERCISING HER DOGS. Once I came to that conclusion I gave up all illusion of accomplishing some training and she had a fine time EXERCISING HER DOGS. LOL!!!!
> 
> But your point is a good one, and that is, to make EACH mark count for SOMETHING. What good is a mark if it doesn't teach or strengthen some skill in the dog? It's just exercise. Granted one dog's lesson may be another dog's exercise, but I feel it has really helped my training to make each mark have some difficult factor to it, do them as singles first then run it as a multiple. Suddenly you have a dog who is running difficult marks as memory birds and nailing them. (I know not everyone ascribes to this but I feel it has worked for me.)


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Well what little training I have done (only started this summer). My club has a person out there and we have walkie talkies so it the dog has more experience and is in the general area of the fall the owner can choose to have help throw another bumper or let the dog hunt. For the young dogs we let them search some and if you see them thinking about about giving up we throw the other bumper. We dont ever let them fail. 

At home when my son I go out we dont have walkie talkies( would like to get some ) I use a hand signals when I want help with Jige. We training him some hard areas. I did realize it on the first couple of throws but that 3rd one he had lots of trouble. So he needed help and then I had my son move to a more level area.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> thanks Shelly, I was hoping you'd join in. So even for dogs at the master level, if they really really don't know where it is, you would call them all the way back in and reset and rethrow?


On multiples for the big dogs, if they are telling me on the line they don't know where it is I would rather reset and rethrow THEN, rather than have them go out in the field unsuccessfully. What is the point if they are aimlessly running around the field? They really haven't marked it, so all they are learning is that if they run around near a gunner long enough they will SOB. I want my dogs to learn to MARK those tough birds! You need to read your dog on the line, which is why all of those memory bird cues and routines are so important--they give you the chance to assess on the line whether the dog remembers or not. Now if they get all the way out there and are just not coming up with the bird, then I might give a quack of encouragement from the winger.

I also want my young dogs to practice perserverance, so I will have the gunner help them stay in the AOF, but if they cannot actually make it there because they have no idea where the mark is, what are they actually learning? If they look out without a clue, or are acting uncertain as to whether a bird went down I would rather have a rethrow--that is why it is so important to be watching THE DOG when the marks are going down--you need to be reading their body language to know whether they have seen the mark or not.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

thanks Shelly, that's an awesome reply!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

sterregold said:


> For my big dogs I try to avoid running what I think of as "exercise marks." I try to select a concept or skill to work on when we go out to train and I keep a log of skills we have worked and the dogs' proficiency with them. Difficult concept birds should be taught as singles first. I will handle the dog with a strong "No here" back to the point where they made the bad choice if they cave to a factor or cheat. If I know they have the memory and tools to actually do the mark I will handle on it to get that lesson in--I want them to have that correction so they are aware they made a bad decision, particularly if it is due to lack of effort. But then I will repeat the concept until they can do it well before I will incorporate that into a multiple, where the same thing applies. If their body language is telling me they really do not know then I will reset and rethrow. But that is for dogs doing Master work.


Oh and just an addendum to this--when I handle to correct lack of effort, I expect the dog to finish the mark on its own--unlike in a test or trial where you would handle all the way to the bird.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> ah, Evan, in my original post I did say it's not a dog that has a chronic problem, just a dog that runs into a very difficult mark and cant find it. I said assume a fairly novice dog.
> You get a sit-nick-sit for lack of focus, LOLOL.


By "novice", does that refer to a level of training or just inexperience, or possibly both? If the dog has a full set of Basics, but is just inexperienced at field marks, the treatment is very minimal, especially since it isn't a chronic issue.

A good rule of thumb (in general) is to help the dog in a way that is so subtle the dog doesn't realize your involvement. That would necessarily mean to do the least you can do, while still actually helping. A little noise; stopping as soon as the dog shows he's returning to the fall area, for example.

But there is a technique that Rex Carr called "walking out a mark" that many trainers aren't aware of, but do some form of. It requires either a very experienced bird boy, or good communication with the trainer; perhaps by radio. It works something like this.

If the dog is hung up hunting short of the fall, and isn't recovering into the fall area, the bird boy would move quietly deeper/further from the handler, but should do so in a manner that the dog doesn't see him/her move.

If the dog is hunting too deep, and isn't able to recover into the fall area on his/her own, the bird boy would move closer to the handler - away from the dog. The effect in each case is the passive influence of the gun position. 

Marking is an act of vision and memory; even on single marks. It is the vision aspect this works on. When a dog sees a bird fall, he sees the whole scene...not only the fall itself, but also prominent landmarks. They measure distance and area of the fall relative to distinct features present at the time. That's why retired marks require so much more focus on the mark itself - making them good training, even for dogs that run testing venues where no guns retire. It makes a good marker a better one.

This bird boy movement should be very subtle. It allows the dog to recover through its instincts, and gives the dog success on its own. Remove that element, and your dog will begin to lose cofidence in his abilities, and will begin to pop on marks.

EvanG


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> ETA---and this is sort of what made me think to wonder how people deal with it when the dog doesn't find the mark. We are working on a concept/factors/suction/flares (heehee, did I get them all, Anney??) and if he were immune to all of them, well, he'd be running field trials not working on SH. But we intentionally set up a reasonably difficult mark, to work on something in particular, and once in a while they don't find the mark because of how we set it up.
> I am babbling.


If the dog won't cave to it it either means the dog has internalized that lesson and understands the concept built into the mark, or that the factor is not influential enough in the mark to get the dog to respond to it. So you have to assess whether you are not challenging the dog enough that they learn from the scenario, or whether they have got it and you can move on.

Really good bird placement puts a bird where the dogs don't want to go in some respect, or places factors _en route_ that tempt the dog to take a line that will make it more difficult to come up with that mark. The ability to read a field and "see" these marks is a real talent some judges and trainers have.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

EvanG said:


> A good rule of thumb (in general) is to help the dog in a way that is so subtle the dog doesn't realize your involvement. That would necessarily mean to do the least you can do, while still actually helping. A little noise; stopping as soon as the dog shows he's returning to the fall area, for example.
> 
> EvanG


Such a salient point Evan. It is one that frustrates me when I take my younger dogs to a picnic trial where the gunners in the field may not be as experienced, or are unfamiliar with the way we train. If there is going to be a momentum bird to help a young dog make it trough a big, tough mark, I want it thrown while the dog is far from the gunner and just thinking of breaking down. If the dog has made the AOF the last thing I want is for another bird to be thrown at that point. I want the gunner to do what you have described so that the dog has to still be responsible for digging out that mark. Too often their "help" for the dog becomes a crutch--it actually tells the dog they do not need to be responsible for remembering the mark, because the gunner will just pop them an easy mark when they get there. Sooooo counter-productive!!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

I prefer Dan's method. I will handle an older dog for cheating a mark,land or water or to teach a concept but not to find the mark. On rare occasions I will handle if they are about to go out of sight or about to get in trouble or switch. Young dogs I will not handle and never let any of them return without the mark.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

There is a significant distinction between "handling _*to*_ a mark", and "handling for route deviation"/"cheating". Both all too often get lumped into a single heading of "handling _*on*_ a mark". They are not at all the same things. A one size fits all approach to helping dogs that are having difficulty on a particular mark may very well result in the dog losing confidence, and ending up with a bigger problem than he started with.

How old? How experienced? How patterned is the behavior? What tools does the dog have? All these and more need to be taken into consideration.

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I may have missed something but are we talking about training with bumpers or flyers for the mark? After all, a bird can do things that a bumper cannot do.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

gdgli said:


> I may have missed something but are we talking about training with bumpers or flyers for the mark? After all, a bird can do things that a bumper cannot do.


That much is true. However, the subject is not what's thrown, but rather how to deal most effectively with a dog that has missed or fogotten a mark. That treatment is done poorly by a great many trainers.

EvanG


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Thank you! This post is so incredibly helpful to me, I didn't feel just hitting the Thanks button was enough.



EvanG said:


> A good rule of thumb (in general) is to help the dog in a way that is so subtle the dog doesn't realize your involvement. That would necessarily mean to do the least you can do, while still actually helping. A little noise; stopping as soon as the dog shows he's returning to the fall area, for example.
> 
> But there is a technique that Rex Carr called "walking out a mark" that many trainers aren't aware of, but do some form of. It requires either a very experienced bird boy, or good communication with the trainer; perhaps by radio. It works something like this.
> 
> ...


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

EvanG said:


> There is a significant distinction between "handling _*to*_ a mark", and "handling for route deviation"/"cheating". Both all too often get lumped into a single heading of "handling _*on*_ a mark". They are not at all the same things. A one size fits all approach to helping dogs that are having difficulty on a particular mark may very well result in the dog losing confidence, and ending up with a bigger problem than he started with.
> 
> How old? How experienced? How patterned is the behavior? What tools does the dog have? All these and more need to be taken into consideration.
> 
> EvanG


Good questions. And I would add: WHY is the dog failing on that mark? Is it lack of effort, inadequate experience, insufficient teaching....? If the mark is inappropriately challenging for the dog, i.e. you are asking him to do the equivalent of graduate work when he hasn't finished high school yet, and the dog is struggling, and struggling without success, then maybe there has been too much of a leap. Constant too difficult marks on which the dog cannot come up with the bird without significant gunner help are not teaching the dog anything either. The answer in that case may not be as simple as a rethrow, but could be a combination of moving the running line up to take out one or more factors, or shifting the line to change an angle, and then rethrow, so that the dog is having its skills built.

It really is a complex analysis one must do before deciding to handle, have the gunner help, or reset it, and will vary depending on dog, purpose of the setup, and the nature of the failure itself.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Sunrise said:


> Thank you! This post is so incredibly helpful to me, I didn't feel just hitting the Thanks button was enough.


You're very welcome! I think all of us hold as greatest import the best interests of our dogs. Understanding these things helps us make better decisions.


sterregold said:


> Good questions. And I would add: WHY is the dog failing on that mark? Is it lack of effort, inadequate experience, insufficient teaching....?


You bet! That's why there is no real one size way to address it.

EvanG


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Sorry if I am hijacking, I don't mean to but on the discussion of marks and marking.... 

Gabby is still an inexperienced dog. She has 2 JH legs, and her SHR. She has only done basic marks, with some easy doubles thrown in for good measure. We need to increase distances with her. I don't know she has done much over 100 yards (guessing). Usually she marks very well, and at her hunt tests got complimented on her marking ability. However she has a "quirk" that I would like to fix, and wonder the opinions of the folks here. 

When I take her to the line, and I say "mark", then I signal the bird/bumper thrower we are ready, she often cocks her head ever so slightly away from the gunner. If we are doing a double, even though I have lined her up upon return from the first mark, she looks toward the first again. I do not send her, until she looks in the diretion I want her to and 98% picks up clean. Even on the ones where she isn't focused dead ahead she usually smacks the mark. But the direction of her head bugs the you know what out of me. How do "I" know she knows? I don't. She is doing this on pile work too. 

We are assuming it is some sort of pressure adversion. I usually have a tab on her, and if she is looking away, I take the tab pop her lightly walk her forward sit her again if she looks away, a quiet "no" if she looks at the mark "yes" and release. However even with the tab she can avert her eyes. I would love helpful thoughts. 

She does from time to time not find the mark, even easy ones. So I am under the assumption that time she really didn't see the fall. These are less common than smacking them but they do happen. It is just inexperience??

Sorry for the hijack Barb!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Ann I would love to see a video if her doing this.
The first thing that popped to mind is singles off of multiple guns (Stickmen or holding blinds), get her to really focus and commit to that ONE mark despite other possible throwing stations in the field. 
I would NOT DO ANY DOUBLES until you can find a cause/cure for it! It sounds like headswinging which multiple marks encourage.

Also, does she know that SIT means "look straight ahead and the gunner you are looking at is the one the bird will come from"?
So many people use the word "mark" to mean "the duck call will start now" but really you should teach the dog that "SIT" means whatever gunner you are facing is the RIGHT ONE. When they are focused on that gunner THEN say "MARK." The word "mark" confirms in their mind that the gunner they are facing is where the bird is coming from. 
I wonder if Gabby is really focusing on the gunner before you say the word mark, or if you have inadvertently taught her that "mark" means look all over the place to find the bird?


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Ann I would love to see a video if her doing this.
> The first thing that popped to mind is singles off of multiple guns (Stickmen or holding blinds), get her to really focus and commit to that ONE mark despite other possible throwing stations in the field.
> I would NOT DO ANY DOUBLES until you can find a cause/cure for it! It sounds like headswinging which multiple marks encourage.
> 
> ...


She is not 'swinging' her head so I may not fully understand the meaning of that word but its more like she looks out of the corner of her eye. 

I would like to say yes she knows sit, but no she doesn't necessarily look straight out. She also is not necessarily looking in the direction of the gunner. 

Unfortunately I don't have any videos, and I probably won't until weather improves. I don't want to risk moisture in our camera. I must confess I don't always say "mark" I think sit is more common so I know she knows she is to stay put. That she is good at. She is not looking around just a shift of the head to peer out of the corner of her eye. My trainer has noted it. It's just when I try his method to fix it in the training I have done, I am not seeing improvement. 

Also we don't have the equipment for stickmen or multiple blinds. Usually hubby and I work for each other we do our best to make sure marks (if we do doubles and we don't do many) are min 90 degrees apart. Most of our mark work is done on a weekend as it is too dark at night when we get home from work for any field training. 

I hate winter. Sorry if I sound so clueless. It's the blind leading the blind here. We try to keep things SIMPLE do nothing more than we have been told to do.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Maxs Mom said:


> I would like to say yes she knows sit, but no she doesn't necessarily look straight out. She also is not necessarily looking in the direction of the gunner.


Okay then that is what you need to look at. You have to do whatever you have to do to get her to look AT the gunner before anything else. Usually just some MOVEMENT from the GUNNER (i.e. swinging his arms) will lock a dog's attention on him. It's THEN when she is 100% looking at him will you tell her "Good! MARK" then you wave for him to throw the bird. Do this on EVERY MARK EVERY TIME. Pretty soon she will see the gunner standing there and lock on to him right away.



> I must confess I don't always say "mark"


Now is the time to make that a habit.



> Also we don't have the equipment for stickmen or multiple blinds.


You don't need any equipment, you need to make your own. Go to Tractor Supply and buy a bunch of fencing stakes ($2 each). Zip tie an old white T shirt on a clothes hanger to the fencing stake. You now have a stickman. Buy some cheap camo blind material from walmart, cut it up and zip-tie it to two fencing stakes and now you have a holding blind. In a pinch folding tailgating chairs work fine as holding blinds as they dog can't tell the difference from a distance. 
If you are going to go to senior you have to get these things.



> We try to keep things SIMPLE do nothing more than we have been told to do.


Well these are simple things to do.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> A good rule of thumb (in general) is to help the dog in a way that is so subtle the dog doesn't realize your involvement. That would necessarily mean to do the least you can do, while still actually helping. A little noise; stopping as soon as the dog shows he's returning to the fall area, for example.


This is somewhere where an experienced thrower can stop a lot of problems. Small movements by the gunner(ex. taking a half step toward the fall when the dog breaks down,maybe a low quiet "hup") keeping the dogs momentum toward the mark. Don't make it a habit and repeat with absolutely no help from the gunner unless absolutely necessary. my .02 When you repeat it is with no shot or noise.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

so many incredible posts here, I just want to thank EVERYONE without quoting and pasting every reply. Awesome, I'm printing this thread out for reference. Great information here.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

There are times when I think an inexperienced helper is worse than no helper at all.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Ann, I never saw Flip do that when we were doing field work when he was younger, but he does do something that this reminds me of in his obedience work. A lot of times when I am leaving my dogs, I will suddenly jump around to face them again to see if I can catch them looking away from me. With Flip though, almost everytime I turn to look at him, he is staring dead at me, but as soon as he sees that I've turned to look at him, he turns his head away from me. It's similar to when you've been staring at someone and you realize they've caught you so you quickly look away. I don't know why he does that and it drives me crazy!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

I think you are making to big of an issue at the line. When Gunner looks away I may use the the tab. But I use the sit command as soon as he looks off (if he does) without a lot of pressure. If it is a double and he looks off I will send him immediately with no second bird and back to singles for a while. If they understand they may be sent for the first one right away they may hold their focus longer. As soon as I see him start to look for that next gun he is sent. If he continues to do it, no bird back to the truck. Try it again later. My .02





Maxs Mom said:


> Sorry if I am hijacking, I don't mean to but on the discussion of marks and marking....
> 
> Gabby is still an inexperienced dog. She has 2 JH legs, and her SHR. She has only done basic marks, with some easy doubles thrown in for good measure. We need to increase distances with her. I don't know she has done much over 100 yards (guessing). Usually she marks very well, and at her hunt tests got complimented on her marking ability. However she has a "quirk" that I would like to fix, and wonder the opinions of the folks here.
> 
> ...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Radarsdad said:


> As soon as I see him start to look for that next gun he is sent. If he continues to do it, no bird back to the truck. Try it again later. My .02


You know I have always heard/read to do this for headswinging but in my over-analytical dog trainer brain I have this fear that doing that too often will actually REWARD the dog for looking off a mark. 
I fight headswinging by doing singles and waiting a full 3-4 count before sending, and on multiples waiting a full 3-4 count before swinging to the next bird. They all headswing to some degree but luckily I've avoided that bad headswinging where the dog won't even hardly look at the memory bird.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> You know I have always heard/read to do this for headswinging but in my over-analytical dog trainer brain I have this fear that doing that too often will actually REWARD the dog for looking off a mark.
> I fight headswinging by doing singles and waiting a full 3-4 count before sending, and on multiples waiting a full 3-4 count before swinging to the next bird. They all headswing to some degree but luckily I've avoided that bad headswinging where the dog won't even hardly look at the memory bird.


Actually both are good treatments, depending on the depth or frequency of head-swinging. Of all the threads that talk about head-swinging, this is true issue; looking off a falling mark toward another and/or looking back to a previous mark while another is falling.

Dogs do things according to their expectations. I think we need to understand that there are no birds in a set up that they don't want. There are just some they want more, depending on their perceived attractiveness to the dog. The treatment is not dependent on that perception. It's based on what we know of the dog regarding how chronic this is.

Tell me how chronic it is with a certain dog, and I'll help outline an appropriate approach. But to throw out a blanket solution without that knowledge is not responsible. It can be managed with most dogs.

EvanG


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Thanks for all the suggestions and assistance everyone!

We do use blinds, holding and gunner, at the trainers so she does see them regularly especially in the better weather. We do have stakes and green tarps for blinds when we can "set up" for training. Problem is we city folk don't have time to 'set up'. By the time we get out to train we only have so much daylight left (unless a weekend then we probably would) so we use it to get the dogs working on something. 

Lately we do more pile work or sit work, as it is easier to do at 'dusk'. However my questions are more for when we can seriously work again. I will try to improve my "mark" command. And yes Jodie, it is like she does not want to make eye contact. She is not looking away as the mark is thrown, she just doesn't face it either. Her head is cocked to say "11:00" as her body and the mark would be at "12:00". Weird dog. Probably wont' get to do any marks for a couple weeks. But when we do, I will re-read and work on the suggestions. 

It is cold and yucky here. Went to the park to exercise the dogs... it was completely covered in ice. If we don't get a warm spell to thaw the ice, we may be done doing any field training at home until spring. Too much rain followed by seriously cold temps. We are still trying to get to the trainers twice a month weather permitting. Our last attempt the temperature was 4. No training that day.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Maxs Mom said:


> Sorry if I am hijacking, I don't mean to but on the discussion of marks and marking....


Ann,

I'm sorry it took a bit of time to respond to this excellent post, but I wanted to be sure I had adequate time to address it. First, no one should have to apologize for a fine post like this because it's the backbone for a training forum. Very good background, and good questions.


Maxs Mom said:


> Gabby is still an inexperienced dog. She has 2 JH legs, and her SHR. She has only done basic marks, with some easy doubles thrown in for good measure. We need to increase distances with her. I don't know she has done much over 100 yards (guessing).


How old is Gabby? With the experience of those tests, and the preparation for them, she's had enough experience to start extending distance, and adding factors. You've done her a favor many don't do for their developing dogs, and that's getting her in a habit of success. You haven't overwhelmed her. Well done.


Maxs Mom said:


> Usually she marks very well, and at her hunt tests got complimented on her marking ability. However she has a "quirk" that I would like to fix, and wonder the opinions of the folks here....When I take her to the line, and I say "mark", then I signal the bird/bumper thrower we are ready, she often cocks her head ever so slightly away from the gunner. If we are doing a double, even though I have lined her up upon return from the first mark, she looks toward the first again....She is doing this on pile work too.


So she head-swings. Welcome to a large club. It's an issue that can be problematic, but can also usually be easily managed if you start early. At your apparent rate of advancement it would seem you're catching this at a good time.


Maxs Mom said:


> We are assuming it is some sort of pressure adversion....I would love helpful thoughts.


It's harder to assess without seeing some video, but it's usually not pressure related. At least not in a conventional sense. It is related to her expectations, as most field behaviors are. She looks back toward a gun station where she successfully got a bird. Not much of a surprise, is it? To your dog, going over there may result in more birds or bumpers. It's that simple from the dog's perspective.

What you need to do is to change that expectation to an expectation of success and excitement at the memory bird location. Like the answers to so many training problems, this is really easier than you might think; *SIMPLIFY! *




This treatment is good for numerous training issues, and you'll find it very effective here. For the next month (at least) set up a mixture of marks as follows:
Singles at progressive distances. Do this not by moving your gunner out, but by you backing up. More on this later.
On roughly every third or fourth set up run a double; short, easy memory mark in no cover, with a "Go" bird longer and in moderate cover.
Setting your doubles this way develops an expectation of success on memory marks. All the work is on the Go bird, and the memory mark is consistently fun and successful. Build on that expectation, and don't add anything to them for a while. Just let your dog get exited about them. Part of that will come from keeping your marks widely separated, as well.

I may post up a diagram for your Singles drill. The gunner does not move away. He/she walks a course from right to left, or from left to right - throwing a single mark, and then moving. On each mark, you back up as the dog is returning; effectively extending the distance to each successive mark. It's winter. Take advantage of it! You won't overheat a dog this time of year in most places.


Maxs Mom said:


> She does from time to time not find the mark, even easy ones. So I am under the assumption that time she really didn't see the fall.


On separate occasions start running Wagon Wheel Lining drills, accentuating "push"/"pull" - right or left movement, lining the dog up accurately for each white bumper. The white bumpers provide a visual target. These drills are not so much about lining as they are movement, and that is part of your needs right now. Let me know how it's going as you follow this plan.

EvanG


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