# The Sunny Diaries part 15. - poop in the crate, nooo!



## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Well, you did risk the wrath of the puppy gods by talking about how well things were going...

The thing about diarrhea is that there may be, how to put this, a roadblock of normal stool further down the pipeline. So that has to move out of the way, rather urgently, but it still looks normal. Then the real fun begins.

Since he has been doing so well, I'd be inclined to write this off to tummy trouble and not change his crate configuration? Has he eaten anything exotic lately? How much pumpkin has he been eating?

ETA: Griffey is a stretching out kind of guy and just last night I moved him into his adult sized crate just to give him room. I may regret it, but since he's been 100% good in the crate since day one...WAIT WAIT WAIT!!! I DID NOT SAY THAT!!! IT WAS SOMEONE ELSE TYPING I SWEAR!!! I'VE BEEN HACKED!!!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Noreaster said:


> Well, you did risk the wrath of the puppy gods by talking about how well things were going...
> 
> The thing about diarrhea is that there may be, how to put this, a roadblock of normal stool further down the pipeline. So that has to move out of the way, rather urgently, but it still looks normal. Then the real fun begins.
> 
> ...


You know what... every time I publicly post about no accidents, he has an accident the same day or the next day. I don't believe in superstition but this may be an exception. I vow never to speak of it again until he goes like 5 months without an accident! 

Hmm, the roadblock thing makes sense. I realise now when I picked it up it wasn't warm though, so I really think he pooped in the middle of the night, then went back to sleep. It doesn't seem like something he'd do though because I trust he knows better! He's 4 months old, why is this happening. I'm hoping it was some unusual tummy trouble. He hasn't eaten anything out of the ordinary, except... I have been feeding some Royal Canin veterinary exclusive kibble as treats (I got them for free as a sample). He's on Royal Canin anyway, a different kind, and I did ask the breeder if it was okay to feed the new kind as treats and she said yes. I have not been feeding a large amount, and that did start 2 days ago. Other than at, a bit of apple, bananas, but he probably got diarrhea from eating things in the backyard he's not supposed to! :/ 

I might just move the crate divider forward by 2 bars, and see how he goes. I don't think it'd make a difference if he needed to poop though so I'm not sure. Argh!


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Is he teething? That can sometimes cause some tummy upset. As for the Royal Canin samples...personally, I wouldn't give them to him anymore. It all depends on the dog, but I had one dog that a single small Milkbone would trigger the runs and my current Aussie girl will be sick for three days on even a part of one French fry.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

Noreaster said:


> Is he teething? That can sometimes cause some tummy upset. As for the Royal Canin samples...personally, I wouldn't give them to him anymore. It all depends on the dog, but I had one dog that a single small Milkbone would trigger the runs and my current Aussie girl will be sick for three days on even a part of one French fry.


Isn't it interesting how different dogs react differently to different things? Diamond used to get the runs with even a nibble of pork, so I haven't even let Noah have pork, but then I realize that he may not be affected at all by it.


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

Well sometimes you just gotta go. It must be really annoying to have to tell someone about it and wait for them to tell you ok!


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Millie had her first "accident" in 6 months just last Sunday. I woke up to find wee on one of her beds. Then 2 nights later it happened again. She had certain things happen to her during the day that account for these little incidents. 

Sometimes it just happens mate. Don't freak out until there's a pattern.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

momo_ said:


> I smelt a pretty deadly fart



Most Aussie thing I've ever read on this forum. My hat is off to you Monique!!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Chritty, he had diarrhea in his crate tonight. It's kind of a pattern so I'm freaking out!!! 
Today he had a huge day playing in a dog park with lots of fellow goldens. He slept from 1PM all the way until late night time with only food, a bath and a bit of play in between. 
He did a massive poop at around 11:40PM, such a random time, then was put in his crate at around midnight. I woke up at 1:40AM to the sound of pawing on the crate. I was half asleep, and waited 10 seconds for it to stop. I went to check, and there it was. A gigantic pile of sloppy diarrhea on his blanket in the corner. I'm pretty used to handling these things but this one in particular forced me to yell for help from my poor mum. He trotted out the crate, leaving poop paw prints all over the floor... which reminds me, there's still diarrhea on my pajamas.

After yesterday's incident, I wanted to be quick to respond to urgent pawing/barking, but I also wanted to wait incase it's not an accident about to happen, just 10 seconds! 
Poor thing. He knew barking wasn't going to get him out, and pawing was the only way to tell me. It was my fault, but I really didn't think it'd happen again. 
After cleaning his crate and making it a bit smaller, I put him back in. He settled immediately, but after around 10 minutes, he was pawing lightly again. This time, I responded immediately. He was sitting up in his crate. I opened the door, and it was a while before he came out, went outside, wandered slowly before squatting. He got a small amount of diarrhea again, and squatted a few more times with nothing. I'm glad I let him out this time. 
Now, I've got the mattress on the floor and sleeping with him. The backdoor is right here. If he needs to go, at least he can run to the door and I'll know. 

There are a few things that could account for this: 
1. Today he ate quite a lot of peanut butter as a lure to stay in the bathtub. I heard too much peanut butter can cause a tummy upset? 
2. I eliminated the new Royal Canin kibble treats as suggested by Noreaster, so it can't be that.
3. Could this be a sign that he's contracted a virus or infection from the dog park? I'm really, really hoping it's just from peanut butter, or eating strange grass in the backyard...

I'll monitor his stools tomorrow and feed rice, chicken and pumpkin. He gets small amounts of all three along with his kibble every meal, and he was doing just fine! So I'm not certained that it's the amount of pumpkin that he's getting that's giving him the runs. He's been getting pumpkin everyday, every meal since 9 weeks because it's just helped so much in firming up his stools. He gets around 1 tablespoon per meal. 

 I'm so concerned, but hoping he'll be okay tomorrow night. Thanks everyone! And thanks Chritty, hearing about Millie's incident has eased my mind a little.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Hi momo_, 
I also had an incident with Rundle after giving her too much peanut butter in the bath tub. It took 3 days to clear up her diarrhea... peanut butter is so thick and oily it just hangs on to the intestines like nobody's business. I might suggest adding a bit of yogurt to her rice, chicken and pumpkin. It helps with an inflamed bowel. Maybe half a tablespoon to every meal. 
We also give Rundle pumpkin every meal, but only half a tablespoon. She has very firm poops.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Oh my goodness, fingers crossed it was the peanut butter! Thanks for letting me know 3Pebs3, I'll definitely be feeding less of it! It is the only thing that keeps him for jumping out of the tub. I'll have to think of more creative ideas to get him staying in there...

How much peanut butter do you think is too much, and how much do you think is safe to keep them from getting the runs? Today, I was in the tub with Sunny so he felt more comfortable. I told my boyfriend to keep the PB supply flowing, because as soon as it's gone, Sunny's like "omg omg I'm getting a bath omg omg" and then there's PB and he's like "oh hey food" and forgets he's wet. I'd say he got about 3 tablespoons of it today... oops.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Three tablespoons is a lot of fat and sugar for a puppy...I suspect you've found the cause and hopefully it will resolve quickly! Poor pup...poor you!

Maybe make his crate as large as possible until his stool firms up again, just so he won't have to sit or walk through it? It really isn't under his control at the moment and it could just increase his stress to have it configured so that he has no choice, which won't help the cause. Not to mention yours!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Did a forum search and someone said their pup got diarrhea a day after thei last vaccination. Sunny got his vaccination 2 days ago, perhaps this could be the reason why he pooped yesterday? 

It's 3AM and I can't get to sleep. I should probably stay alert to make sure he's okay, but I don't mind because he's looking so darn cute sleeping on my bed on his side with his legs curled up.
Does having diarrhea cause puppies to become really tired afterwards?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Noreaster said:


> Three tablespoons is a lot of fat and sugar for a puppy...I suspect you've found the cause and hopefully it will resolve quickly! Poor pup...poor you!
> 
> Maybe make his crate as large as possible until his stool firms up again, just so he won't have to sit or walk through it? It really isn't under his control at the moment and it could just increase his stress to have it configured so that he has no choice, which won't help the cause. Not to mention yours!


I asked the breeder if it was okay that I was feeding pumpkin everyday, and she said it was okay, but perhaps it is a bit much? But it has helped so much with his stools for the past 2 months! Maybe I'll continue to give him the regular amount while he's got diarrhea, then once it's cleared up I'll decrease the amount.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear...I was talking about three tablespoons of peanut butter being too much for a puppy, not the pumpkin! Since he's tolerated the pumpkin all along, it's another reason to suspect the peanut butter.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> I asked the breeder if it was okay that I was feeding pumpkin everyday, and she said it was okay, but perhaps it is a bit much? But it has helped so much with his stools for the past 2 months! Maybe I'll continue to give him the regular amount while he's got diarrhea, then once it's cleared up I'll decrease the amount.


I think she was referring to the 3 tablespoons of peanut butter, not the 3 tablespoons of pumpkin. I read somewhere you shouldn't give more than a teaspoon of peanut butter to a small dog, and a tablespoon to a large dog. We have not given Rundle any peanut butter since the diarrhea incident. For bathing now, my fiance goes in the bathtub with her and I give her continuous treats from outside of the tub. Boiled chicken works really well. And to slow her down I hang on to the chicken tightly and let her lick and nibble the pieces out of my fingers rather than just letting the piece of chicken go right away.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> Did a forum search and someone said their pup got diarrhea a day after thei last vaccination. Sunny got his vaccination 2 days ago, perhaps this could be the reason why he pooped yesterday?
> 
> It's 3AM and I can't get to sleep. I should probably stay alert to make sure he's okay, but I don't mind because he's looking so darn cute sleeping on my bed on his side with his legs curled up.
> Does having diarrhea cause puppies to become really tired afterwards?


I'm guessing he's more tired because it is 3am and doesn't have anything to do with the diarrhea. Rundle was her regular self apart from having really runny poop.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Millie used to always be a little off after vacc's and worming. Could be. 

What kind of peanut butter are you using?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> I'm guessing he's more tired because it is 3am and doesn't have anything to do with the diarrhea. Rundle was her regular self apart from having really runny poop.


I expected him to be in play mode because he slept ALL day and sometimes he randomly wants to play in the middle of the night after a good sleep. He asked to go out at 6:20am this morning so I left the door open until I woke up at 8. Checked the backyard and there was more diarrhea, plus 3 random little trails of it with mucus. He's had something like before and it cleared up, but I'll be keeping an eye out today to see changes in his stool and behaviour. He seems pretty tired still, not up for play. If he doesn't improve, I'll take him to the vet in 24 hours from now.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Chritty said:


> Millie used to always be a little off after vacc's and worming. Could be.
> 
> What kind of peanut butter are you using?
> View attachment 512066


I've bought that one before! Right now he's getting the Sanitarium no added sat or sugar. The Kraft one tastes much better though so I'll be switching back to that after this one runs out.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

momo_ said:


> I've bought that one before! Right now he's getting the Sanitarium no added sat or sugar. The Kraft one tastes much better though so I'll be switching back to that after this one runs out.



Oh my goodness. That is so cute!!

If you're worried about Sunny take him to the vet today.


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

momo_ said:


> I've bought that one before! Right now he's getting the Sanitarium no added sat or sugar. The Kraft one tastes much better though so I'll be switching back to that after this one runs out.



So who is actually eating it? You or the pup???


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

How did Sunny go for the rest of the day Monique??


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Bahahaha, Sunny's eating it but every now and then I like to have a bit too! Not that he cares, but I'd rather feed him the better-tasting one (according to me) if the nutritional values/prices are similar. 

Chris, I was a little concerned that he wasn't very eager to play this morning. He slept from 9am-12pm, then we did a bit of training + lunch, then the whole family had a nap in the living room together from 2-5pm. It was kinda cute. :
He got pretty excited when I took out the leash so we went for a very brisk 20 minute walk. He was awake from 5-9pm for the walk, dinner, training and play time so I'm no longer concerned about his behaviour.

But in the late afternoon, he did do a poop. It was smaller than his usual stools, came out firm, but still wet, with a very small amount of blood "glazing" it, giving it a slight pink/red discolouration. I hosed it down to "deconstruct" (TMI, sorry) and didn't see anything odd. No poops after dinner and treats (banana). 

Will be listening out all night for any pawing on the crate and checking his poops in the morning. For every meal today, I fed him rice, boiled chicken and pumpkin, no kibble. I will continue this diet until his stools are back to normal. If his bowel movements become regulated, does that mean he's okay, or does the rice/chicken/pumpkin diet just conceal the problem, if there's a problem? 

If he still gets diarrhea tomorrow, I'll take him to the vet.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Excellent plan all around. Hope he's back to his self today!


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Did he make it through the night?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Chritty said:


> Did he make it through the night?


No poops after dinner, slept at 9pm, crated at 11:30, then I heard him moving about at 2am so I let him out. He pooped. No blood, it wasn't mushy but it wasn't solid enough. Back in the crate, then movement at 5:50am. Took him out and he had diarrhea. He squatted a few more times with nothing after that. 
I've booked an appointment with the vet at 4:30pm today.
Hope he's okay...  Will let you all know how it goes.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Thanks for keeping us posted. With the blood and ongoing diarrhea I think it's a good thing that you are taking him in. Hope Sunny is OK!!!


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Would you take a stool sample with you for something like this?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Thank you 3Pebs3! 

Chris, yes I should, I'm still waiting for the sample though! 
I don't even know much to take and what to put it in. All I have is a little Chinese restaurant sauce container. :yuck:


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Maybe a ziplock bag?

Have you already disposed of his earlier stools?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Hi guys,

This was only the 2nd time that I've taken Sunny somewhere in the car without someone sitting with him. He was already scared enough without me rushing and stalling the car to get back up the slippery drive way. I had to ran up to the house in the rain to get the leash I forgot. He was barking so much during the 20-minute drive. 

On the phone, I specifically asked for John, who was recommended by my breeder and many other friends. I was lead into a room with a different vet and didn't want to sound rude so I just accepted it. So, I explained Sunny's situation, and ended up paying $75 just for her to tell me to continue feeding what I'm feeding minus pumpkin, and she fed him a worming tablet which I actually already have for the 4th of April. She said just to be safe, in case the last worming tablets had worn off. I was told to monitor his stools, and if his diarrhea continued, I should bring him back in with a stool sample for testing, which I couldn't bring today because he wouldn't go! 

Not only was that a waste of time, Sunny vomited in the car and went to town on it 20 seconds before we arrived home. There was no point stopping to the car so I was dry retching in between outbursts of LEAVE IT, LEAVE IT, SUNNY! 
He cleaned it up so well it didn't leave much for me to do. 

I guess it's not over yet. Will see how he goes for the next few days before I fork out another ~$100, HOPEFULLY with a solution and not some generic advice. :/


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Maybe if Sunny has another diarrhoea episode maybe just take the sample in to the vet without him or an appointment. Explain to them that you were there the day before but didn't have a sample


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

Ok Momo. This might help (and it's free!) diarrhoea is a good thing. It is natures way of getting rid of dietary indiscretions. It is the body (human or animal) doing what it is designed to do. Getting rid of the bad stuff. A bit of blood is normal - it just means that the digestive tract is irritated. Most diarrhoea can be treated at home. Food should be withdrawn for 12-24 hours. Water should be freely available. This should help the digestive tract to heal a little. After a while watery stools should decrease and/or stop. Small meals of cooked chicken and rice should be fed. Make sure you feed some of the liquid from the rice. Then a more normal stool should appear. But keep up the chicken and rice, don't rush back into a normal diet. You really only need the vet if the diarrhoea increases i.e. more and more frequent poops, if there is vomiting (wouldn't count one vomit in the car when puppy is stressed) or if the dog is lethargic and dehydrated. You don't want your pup on unnecessary antibiotics. Obviously this does not apply with a very young brand new puppy who may well have giardia or one of those things and needs to see the vet. A dog who vomits and chows down on it straight away isn't that sick!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

I'm just commenting that my vet said to feed him bland bland chicken and if the problem persists see the vet

But really I'm only commenting to follow your progress.

If it makes you feel better Ben threw up on my bed in the middle of the night. My wife was dry heaving while I tried to clean it up while Ben was trying to eat it. It was gross. He also sometimes gets the runny bum, thankfully not on my bed or inside. but it clears up after a few days. 

My point is. It happens every now and then. Patience grasshopper


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Just a quick update: Sunny's been awake from 5-11pm. He usually cannot stay awake for over 2-3 hours, loves taking naps, but even at 10:40 he had the zoomies and he was asking to go outside every 10 minutes tonight to go dig in the garden. 

Right now it's 11:10pm and he refuses to settle in his crate and is sitting up pawing at it, it's been 10 minutes. I've let him out twice to see if he'd go to the door to go outside, but he just went to sleep on the floor. At night when he gets put in the crate, he KNOWS it's bed time and he has not done this since our first week home at 8 weeks old! 

This is so frustrating. I don't know what's gotten into him. Could it be the worming chew the vet gave him? 

Btw he hasn't pooped since this morning.. ;jadflj


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Hmm... I wonder if he is worried about being confined with his "poop" and that's why he is trying to sleep out in the open. 
With Rundle, we often have to wait until she is fairly sleepy before we can get her to go into her crate and settle down for the night. 
I would have been very annoyed that the vet was not more helpful too. At the very least she could have asked you to come back with a stool sample. I like Chritty's suggestion to just bring it in anyways if it is still off when he actually goes.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Has he lost a tooth?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Oh dear... last night was probably even worse than the first night home. 

5:00-11:00PM - awake
11:00 - crated 
11:00-11:10 - pawing constantly 
11:10 - let out of the crate for a minute to see if he'd need to go, then back in the crate
11:10 - 12:00 - I continue to let him in and out of the crate around 5 times
12:00 - I give in and let him sleep out of the crate on the floor
12:20 - wake him up to get him in the crate, he paws at it for 20 seconds, then settles 
3:00 - Pawing on the crate, it's pouring down outside, he doesn't want to go out, so I go out with him. He does a really really mushy poop
3:05 - Back in the crate, paws at it for around 5 minutes, I give in and let him sleep outside
3:15 - Wake him up and back in the crate, paws for a minute, then settles to sleep
6:00 - Pawing on the crate, I take him outside, sloppy mushy poop, at least there's a shape now and not just a pile. It looks almost brown/greyish in colour
6:20 - He's now curled up on his bed on the floor sleeping


If it wasn't for the diarrhea, I would be very, very concerned about major crate training regression. Every time he was put in the crate last night, maybe 7 times, he would not settle. At night time, he has never been like this since the first week home. Even with diarrhea the past 3-4 nights, he wasn't too fussy the night before last night, and there were no accidents then. It's just crazy that he was awake for 6 hours straight, and still had the energy to resist the crate for an hour, possibly even longer if I didn't let him out. 

What I'm worried about is... 3 nights ago, on the 2nd day of diarrhea in the crate, I allowed him to sleep with me on the bed afterwards. He's slept outside of his crate a few times recently, maybe 1-2 per week for the past few weeks. My boyfriend thinks he no longer wants to sleep in his crate because he's had "a taste of freedom". Also, lately when I leave the house for no longer than an hour, I give him free roam of the house instead of crating because I know he hates it. Could 2 months of crate-training just go out the window because I've been lenient about it? Or is he suddenly not settling in the crate because he's worried about being confined with his poop, like Rundle's mom suggested?

If his system finally clears up and he's okay with sleeping in the crate, then I'll allow sleeping out of the crate once in a while, but for now I'm going to assume the worst and not allow it anymore. Should I be more persistent in doing a daily hour crating during the day? 


I hope he gets better soon and poops like clockwork after every meal like he used to. These 2-3am poops and crate-hating sure feels like young puppyhood again.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Chritty said:


> Has he lost a tooth?


He lost his two front teeth over a week ago, and the adult teeth are growing in quite quickly! I haven't checked to see if he's lost anymore teeth but I'll do that today. Could it affect the way he's behaving or something? 

It's just so unusual, he's never had this much energy all night! I feel as if that worming chew had some strange side effects making him super hyperactive.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> Oh dear... last night was probably even worse than the first night home.
> 
> 5:00-11:00PM - awake
> 11:00 - crated
> ...


Hi momo_,
I only know from personal experience and I am certainly no expert as Rundle is my first golden, and first puppy... but, we have done sleeps outside of the crate when Rundle has had diarrhea or vomiting on 2 or 3 different occasions now, and she usually accepts her crate again once she's all better. We don't keep her in her crate when she is not well because her crate is in a carpeted room, and we don't want to risk her going on the carpet when we let her out for an "emergency." So, she sleeps out on her bed in the living room and I sleep on the couch. Same thing goes for her accidents, because I live on the 26th floor of a condo building, there is no way she will make it all the way downstairs if she has diarrhea. So, she stands at the door of the balcony and we let her do her business there. As soon as the diarrhea clears up, she always does all of her business outside. I feel like, at least for Rundle, she only goes inside because she has to. And she only sleeps outside of her crate because she has to. But, that majority trumps the minority of disruptions to her routine.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Ok, well my unprofessional, completely unqualified opinion is it's all due to teething


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> Hi momo_,
> I only know from personal experience and I am certainly no expert as Rundle is my first golden, and first puppy... but, we have done sleeps outside of the crate when Rundle has had diarrhea or vomiting on 2 or 3 different occasions now, and she usually accepts her crate again once she's all better. We don't keep her in her crate when she is not well because her crate is in a carpeted room, and we don't want to risk her going on the carpet when we let her out for an "emergency." So, she sleeps out on her bed in the living room and I sleep on the couch. Same thing goes for her accidents, because I live on the 26th floor of a condo building, there is no way she will make it all the way downstairs if she has diarrhea. So, she stands at the door of the balcony and we let her do her business there. As soon as the diarrhea clears up, she always does all of her business outside. I feel like, at least for Rundle, she only goes inside because she has to. And she only sleeps outside of her crate because she has to. But, that majority trumps the minority of disruptions to her routine.


This is reassuring to know! Perhaps Sunny "knows" he's not better yet, so he's not accepting the crate? I'll see how he goes for the next few nights, but really hoping I don't have to start from the beginning with crate training. To be honest, I don't think the diarrhea will clear up for at least a few more days, and I don't want to not crate him and risk him never wanting to be in the crate again. I haven't crated him in the day while I'm home for a long time which is bad. The last time he was crated in the day was about a week ago when we left for 3.5 hours. He threw a hissy fit maybe 3 times, each lasting no longer than a minute which isn't that bad. 

Living on the 26th floor must be a pain when potty training! Props to you! I struggled even with the backdoor RIGHT here.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Chritty said:


> Ok, well my unprofessional, completely unqualified opinion is it's all due to teething


Did Millie have any changes in behaviour when she was teething? I'm really interested to know!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> Could it affect the way he's behaving or something?


100% 

Just ask any hooman parents (your mum perhaps) how their baby went when teething. They are in pain and discomfort and therefore restless.

Just like you when you get a tooth ache, you'd find it tough to sleep. 

Also he is probably going through a growth spurt/pains

Just ride it out


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Marcus said:


> 100%
> 
> Just ask any hooman parents (your mum perhaps) how their baby went when teething. They are in pain and discomfort and therefore restless.
> 
> ...


That would explain why he was chewing on his antler for 40 minutes straight at 10PM. Very unusual. I expect him to be more nippy on me when teething, but he's been alright? 
As for growth spurts, don't they sleep more during this period? 
And if he's in pain from teething, how long do these sleepless nights last? 
Thanks Marcus


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

I don't remember explicit details, that's the power of these little bundles of cuteness - the good times make you forget the bad times!!

I do remember that no amount of redirection helped!

There were some loose stools, maybe a vomit or two. A LOT of naughtiness. My wife had a terrible time with Millie during these times, especially because I work two jobs and I'm not home for longer than an hour on Fridays and I'm gone Saturday nights as well. 

This is the way I see it now:

Puppies are in a lot of pain during teething and growth, and have no idea how to deal with it. They won't sit there crying like a child. They will channel it the only way they know how, interacting with their world especially through their mouths. 

It's time to break out the frozen stuff momo. We used ice cubes as treats, I even put baby bonjela on them because Millie wouldn't let me stick my finger in her mouth without having licked all the bonjela off first. Frozen Greek yoghurt. Dampen an old tea towel and freeze that. Freezable dog teething toys etc. 

Since Millie was so bitey I would also sit with her and massage her gums. It wasn't pleasant on my hands but she was going through more pain than I do it was worth the discomfort. She really enjoyed the mouth massage and I like to think it was soothing for her. Especially massaging over the gums where the MASSIVE teeth were just trying to breakthrough. OUCH!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Chritty said:


> I don't remember explicit details, that's the power of these little bundles of cuteness - the good times make you forget the bad times!!
> 
> I do remember that no amount of redirection helped!
> 
> ...


I already give him ice cubes, frozen kongs with yoghurt, frozen wet towel and one type of frozen toy. Just then I gave him about 15 ice cubes! And then he got bored of them. I don't know what's going on but he just doesn't want to sleep. Last night he only got 7 hours of interrupted sleep, and refuses to sleep more right now. Usually he'll wake up at around 6:30, stay awake for breakfast and a bit of play, then back to sleep from 9-11:30. All he wants to do is go outside every 30 minutes to dig, even in the rain. Can he smell earthworms or something? 

I tried giving Sunny a gum massage but he doesn't seem to like it. How long did Millie's naughty stage last for? How is she now? 

I thought the serious teething happens later down the track at around 7-8 months. Sunny's only 4 months.  

About an hour ago he had diarrhea again. It doesn't seem to be getting better. 

*Harleysmom*, there is around 12-14 hours between dinner and breakfast, dinner at 6:30, breakfast at 7:30-8. I don't know how he'd go 24 hours without food! The vet said 12 hours is okay, and with a rice and chicken diet for the past 48 hours, there have been no changes. 
Should I be eliminating all treats too? I give him some banana as training treats, and a stick of puppy milk chews, and yoghurt.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> Should I be eliminating all treats too? I give him some banana as training treats, and a stick of puppy milk chews, and yoghurt.


YES hahaha...

The point is to only give him the blandest diet in order to reset his stomach.... Chick and rice or just chicken that's it nothing else. Maybe also some Yakult Probiotics


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

No yoghurt at all?! I thought yoghurt was okay because it has probiotics? 

I'll take away all the other treats. Sorry Sunny


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Yep. Bland diet for now. 

Millie was very mouthy on us so the massage worked for her. She seems to find comfort in "holding" my hand. Not gonna work for every dog obviously. 

Did you keep any of his diarrhea??


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> No yoghurt at all?! I thought yoghurt was okay because it has probiotics?


Some do and some don't

Give him some Yakult


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

He's sleeping at my feet at the moment. Poor kid. 
I didn't keep any of the diarrhea because I won't be taking him to the vet until Friday if it keeps up, so I'll get a sample closer to the day. 
So far, he's had diarrhea every 3 hours since 3am this morning. 

The yoghurt I give him has probiotics, but I'll get some Yakult if I go the shops!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the help and support. I appreciate the prompt replies!


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Many dogs can't handle dairy, probiotics or no probiotics. Maybe think about stopping the yogurt and anything else other than white chicken and rice until you get a handle on this? The old school thinking used to be not to feed the dog anything except water for 24 hours to "rest the gut." I don't like to do that in a puppy, but drastically simplifying his diet might make sense?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Noreaster said:


> Many dogs can't handle dairy, probiotics or no probiotics. Maybe think about stopping the yogurt and anything else other than white chicken and rice until you get a handle on this? The old school thinking used to be not to feed the dog anything except water for 24 hours to "rest the gut." I don't like to do that in a puppy, but drastically simplifying his diet might make sense?


He's had yoghurt since 8 weeks old and he's been fine, but he can't handle cheese. Is it normal that he can handle *some* dairy products and not others? 
I'll take away the yoghurt for now too. Just chicken and rice it is.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

What do you guys think about exercise/play time for today? 
It's wet and miserable out there, and I'd actually like him to rest for the whole day after only getting 7 hours of sleep last night and barely any nap time during the day yesterday. 
He hasn't been drinking much at all and don't want him to become even more dehydrated with a walk, although maybe that'd make him want to drink. 
Should I let him rest for the whole day? One walk in the evening perhaps?


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm a big advocate of rest, although that may be slightly biased by the fact that I haven't had a decent night's sleep in three days due to various pet issues...

Maybe rest him today? If he's bouncing off the walls tonight, then maybe a short walk?


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

I'd rest him. If he needs stimulating have it be mental. Use the chicken for treats


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

I'm worried about his hydration too considering the diarrhea


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> He's sleeping at my feet at the moment. Poor kid.
> I didn't keep any of the diarrhea because I won't be taking him to the vet until Friday if it keeps up, so I'll get a sample closer to the day.
> So far, he's had diarrhea every 3 hours since 3am this morning.
> 
> The yoghurt I give him has probiotics, but I'll get some Yakult if I go the shops!





Chritty said:


> I'm worried about his hydration too considering the diarrhea


This sounds all too familiar...

How much are you feeding him... as in quantities. Before the runny bum started.

Ben went though runny bum for weeks and weeks after I got him. Turned out I was overfeeding him, and it came out out the end, like an indian curry.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Yesterday I took him for a walk, tired him out with the car ride, did a lot of training and he was still off the walls for 6 hours straight!!! That was very unlike him though, hopefully he's more settled tonight. If not, I'll take him for a short walk at around 5PM. 

Will do more mental exercise tonight, maybe even hide and seek if he stays long enough for me to hide.  



> Ben went though runny bum for weeks and weeks after I got him. Turned out I was overfeeding him, and it came out out the end, like an indian curry.


I can't stop laughing!!! 

I don't think I'm overfeeding though, he gets the same amount as he used to when his stools were fine. As requested by the breeder, he's on Royal Canin Maxi Junior. According to the bag, he should be getting 3.5 cups per day, but I only give him 2.5-3 because I added chicken, rice and pumpkin to it. For past 2 days he only gets about 3/4 cup of rice (COOKED) and 2 tablespoons of chicken pieces + treats which I will take away. I'll feed him more chicken when we're training.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> For past 2 days he only gets about 3/4 cup of rice (COOKED) and 2 tablespoons of chicken pieces + treats which I will take away. I'll feed him more chicken when we're training.


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

Your number one priority at the moment is the diarrhoea. Just chicken and rice, no treats, forget the training, let him sleep as much as he wants. In one of your previous posts twice in the middle of the night you are WAKING HIM UP to put him back in his crate. There is an old saying something like "let babies and sleeping dogs lie" or some such. Noreaster is right, sleep is healing. Chritty is right also that in human babies (my huge area of expertise) teething causes upset tummies so probably the same in pups. Let him get well and then worry about the crate and other training. Give him a couple of days of peace and quiet and JUST COOKED CHICKEN AND RICE.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Harleysmum said:


> Your number one priority at the moment is the diarrhoea. Just chicken and rice, no treats, forget the training, let him sleep as much as he wants. In one of your previous posts twice in the middle of the night you are WAKING HIM UP to put him back in his crate. There is an old saying something like "let babies and sleeping dogs lie" or some such. Noreaster is right, sleep is healing. Chritty is right also that in human babies (my huge area of expertise) teething causes upset tummies so probably the same in pups. Let him get well and then worry about the crate and other training. Give him a couple of days of peace and quiet and JUST COOKED CHICKEN AND RICE.


Thank you Harleysmum. 
He slept from 10-11:30AM, then 1-3:30PM. He didn't want to sleep after that, and I didn't want to deal with a hyperactive puppy at night, so I took him out for a 15-minute walk at around 4:30, and before that his puppy friend next door was out so he had a nice, rough play for 20 minutes! He was very energetic. When we got back, he slept for another hour, then dinner, then he was so upset from boredom he looked at me with the most depressing look and whined. When he sleeps early, he usually wants to play at around 2-4am. It's very annoying. 

I was waking him up to put him back in the crate because I don't want him to think 1 hour of pawing at the crate means I give in and he gets to stay out of the crate all night. I really didn't want to take too many steps back in crate training so to be safe, I put him back in. A few days of not crating him might mean a few weeks or months of trying to re-crate train a now very stubborn, pre-teen puppy. 

I'm interested to know how teething causes upset tummies. Is it because they get into more things they shouldn't in the garden, or is it just a natural thing? 

A few days of peace and quiet would actually be the greatest gift to me, but I'm afraid he'll have none of it! If I ignore him, don't play with him or walk him, he gets bored, barks, and demands to go outside to dig. 

He hasn't pooped for almost 12 hours now, but I have been feeding only chicken and rice! And now I realise I'm a crazy puppy parent because seeing a solid poop will be the highlight of my week.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Poo is our lives!!

In babies teething causes fevers and other body reactions. After about another 3 weeks you'll see the big teeth that come through and I think you'll be amazed. I know I was. If humans grew at the rate that dogs do we'd have walking, talking 6 month old children ordering their own meals at restaurants


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Talk to me about poo. I'm a poo pro. Just see my poo posts. Riveting stuff. Haha I think we all have a PHD in Poo


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Marcus said:


> Talk to me about poo. I'm a poo pro. Just see my poo posts. Riveting stuff. Haha I think we all have a PHD in Poo


I think we all know about your poo posts, Marcus. I think I'll revisit them every now and then for a laugh. 

Poo is now my favourite topic. I wish I could bring it up in everyday conversation without judgment.


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

We are all poo mad! I like to pick it up, feel it, inspect it, look for stray bits and pieces, anything I might recognise and then discuss it with my husband (who I have to say does not share my interest!). My children have all had diarrhoea over the years (they are now in their late twenties and early thirties and would be horrified by this post) and only once did we have a severe situation. My 18 month old became ill and instead of the diarrhoea gradually getting better it got worse and worse and worse. It was a week-end and I ended up ringing the hospital. They thought I was a hysterical mother and said "Oh it will start to get better". I told them it was my fourth child and it was like nothing I had experienced before. "Bring him in" they said. We were in hospital for four days and he was a very sick boy. He survived and is about to become a lawyer. Is that a good outcome - probably. Sunny will come good and you will be able to continue his training. It may set him back a week but I don't believe it will be months and months. But I believe it is a waste of time trying to train a pup who is not well.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Only in dogdom does a couple have the following utterly sincere conversation..."His poop looked great this morning!" "Best news ever!"


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

A couple of my facebook poo posts over the last 9 months (I'm sure some people have de-friended me)


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

"Do your kids still s*** themselves?" BAHAHA


Okay so last night wasn't great, but it was a bit better than the night before. 
5:00PM - come home from walk, Sunny crashes until dinner at 6
6:00-7:00 - whines from boredom, goes back to sleep
7:00-9:00 - I don't remember what happened here, I'm pretty sure he slept most of the time
9:00 - Put him into the crate very early, pawed once, then went back to sleep
11:50 - Pawing on the crate. Let him out. He played with his toys for 5 minutes, then went to the door. Outside, he pooped for the first time since 9am. It wasn't diarrhea, yes! But it wasn't very solid. Still, it was poop-shaped with some slimy coating. 
12:00AM - Unattempted to put him back in the crate. He asked to come out 3 minutes later, so I just let him sleep on the floor. 
12:10 - Parents arrive home, Sunny wakes up to greet them. 
12:20 - Back in the crate. He fusses for a few minutes, then sleeps.
3:00 - Pawing on crate. I open the crate. He lays back down. I pat him for a little while and quietly go back to bed. He stays in the crate with the door open until 5:30. 
5:30 - Walks out of the crate to sleep on his mat. Plays with his toys until 7:10.
7:10 - Asks to go out. No poops. 

So throughout the night, he asks to come out of the crate 3-4 times, and only once did he need to go potty. I hope he doesn't make this a habit. Once the diarrhea clears up, I'll be ignoring the pawing on the crate. 
At least last night he didn't fuss so much, and his poop looks better!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Great news... it's a slow progress, as you're finding out.

You can set your watch to when Ben poops 7.30am, noon, 5pm (I think there's a mid morning one in there somewhere, but I'm not home to see it)


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

Poop report sounds really good. Don't rush back to normal diet or treats yet.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Poop update: We have to leave Sunny later today for 3 hours, so we took him out to the dog park. There were no other dogs. Poor thing. We ran around for a bit, then we walked around outside a shopping complex for some socialisation fun while his granny did a quick grocery shop. An older man came up to us. Sunny was fairly calm, but tried to gently mouth his hand. He was saying "Uh uh!" which is good, but then went on to lecture me, saying "You have to take him to puppy school. You should be able to control him from a young age." Give him a break, he's still a puppy, and probably teething right now! 

ANYWAY, on the grass around the corner of the shops, *he did a poop*! It was only small, but SOLID. No mushiness. Only problem is... it was greyish/brownish/green, and I noticed lots of dead grass bits in there and some fleck of white, like bird poop. Is the colouring really unusual? It's not orangey brown like usual from the pumpkin.


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

You poop what you eat. Chicken and rice, greyish/brownish; grass/green; pumpkin/orange.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> Poop update: We have to leave Sunny later today for 3 hours, so we took him out to the dog park. There were no other dogs. Poor thing. We ran around for a bit, then we walked around outside a shopping complex for some socialisation fun while his granny did a quick grocery shop. An older man came up to us. Sunny was fairly calm, but tried to gently mouth his hand. He was saying "Uh uh!" which is good, but then went on to lecture me, saying "You have to take him to puppy school. You should be able to control him from a young age." Give him a break, he's still a puppy, and probably teething right now!
> 
> ANYWAY, on the grass around the corner of the shops, *he did a poop*! It was only small, but SOLID. No mushiness. Only problem is... it was greyish/brownish/green, and I noticed lots of dead grass bits in there and some fleck of white, like bird poop. Is the colouring really unusual? It's not orangey brown like usual from the pumpkin.


If you have been following Rundle's posts from today, you will have heard all about my griping about dealing with people not familiar with puppy behavior.

Congrats on the great poop!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> I noticed lots of dead grass bits in there and some fleck of white, like bird poop. Is the colouring really unusual? It's not orangey brown like usual from the pumpkin.


White flecks = rice
Lack of orange = no Pumpkin

Keep it up


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> If you have been following Rundle's posts from today, you will have heard all about my griping about dealing with people not familiar with puppy behavior.
> 
> Congrats on the great poop!



I think half the problem is that people forget how their puppy behaved. Or they choked it for every little bad thing.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> If you have been following Rundle's posts from today, you will have heard all about my griping about dealing with people not familiar with puppy behavior.
> 
> Congrats on the great poop!


I'll definitely take a look at the posts! Sunny wasn't even jumping up. He had all fours planted on the ground, standing pretty still and wasn't snapping his jaws like a shark. He just likes to follow the hand with his mouth if the hand is coming from above his head... 


Marcus, the white didn't look like rice. It was a very bright white, small and roundish. Probably got into something, but at least it came out. 

Hoping for at least 1 more great poop before bedtime tonight. So exciting!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> Marcus, the white didn't look like rice. It was a very bright white, small and roundish. Probably got into something, but at least it came out.


You mentioned vet gave him another worming dose... it could be the left over worms coming out. Nothing to worry about.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

I found another poop, looks recent enough. It came out as a thin coil, but solid enough. It looked strange so I hosed it down. There was a long white thing. Couldn't make out what it was so I picked it up. It was small part of an ear wipe I use for him. Far out they eat everything! 

His last three poops have not been diarrhea, somewhat solid, but in small amounts, as opposed to his usual poops which come out as 2-3 big and thick "logs". Maybe because there's no kibble? Does rice and chicken get absorbed more?


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

Kibble does give bigger poops.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Man I am glad how this one turned out. I read


momo_ said:


> There was a long white thing.


 and got really scared to go on reading.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3, what did you think it was? At first I thought it was a condom, but uh, we don't use those around here, or maybe a bully stick since he swallows them after they get down to 2 inches, but he hasn't had one in 2 weeks.

Ok *POOP UPDATE:*

The GOOD news - he didn't poop in the crate last night, nor did he need to go during the middle of the night. In fact, we made it through the whole night without taking him out! He fussed at the beginning but settled until 6:30am. 

The BAD news - he pooped at the dog park this morning, 22 hours after his last poop yesterday. I was SO, SO excited seeing him squat. Ran up to the poop to see a small end of it being solid and grey, then the rest was orange and mushy, the end soft enough to be considered diarrhea. I started adding A BIT of pumpkin to the chicken and rice, a bit, I swear! It's something everyone recommends for diarrhea and I thought it couldn't do any harm! I wonder why he's so sensitive to pumpkin now... I'll strictly stick to chicken and rice again, without even the tiniest bit of pumpkin. I'm just concerned because it's now day 5 of the chicken and rice diet and I expect to see firmer stools. He hasn't pooped since 10am this morning, so he'll probably need to go in the middle of the night. His behaviour is still normal, very active.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

momo_ said:


> At first I thought it was a condom, but uh, we don't use those around here



Too much information maybe? Lmao


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> I'm just concerned because it's now day 5 of the chicken and rice diet and I expect to see firmer stools. He hasn't pooped since 10am this morning, so he'll probably need to go in the middle of the night. His behaviour is still normal, very active.



But you did have firmer stools. It was working. We can't help it if you slip in some pumpkin, thinking we wouldn't notice. Lol. 

Back to chicken and rice. We mean it this time haha


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Sorry Chris. :bowl:

Why would a bit of pumpkin cause his stools to become loose again though? Does that mean I shouldn't add pumpkin ever again, or I can after he's 100% back to normal? Definitely back to rice and chicken for now, though I don't expect the small amount of pumpkin to throw him off for any longer than a few more days. If his poops aren't solid enough by Monday, back to the vet. :no:
I'm sure getting into dirt, grass, mulch and bark doesn't help either. I do my best to stop it, but it's just inevitable with a golden puppy!


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

momo_ said:


> Sorry Chris. :bowl:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess you could argue that if his intestinal walls are compromised that the sugars in the pumpkins might be aggravating his bowels


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Hey, we're taking him to the beach for the first time ever tomorrow! Apparently it'll rain, but hoping for a "Sunny" day. Heh. heh. 
So I heard salt water makes them get diarrhea. Is this going to slow down the healing process? Should I expect vomiting in the car if he swallows some water?


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm going to be such a buzzkill here, but the beach is full of diarrhea fodder. Clam shells, bits of crab, seaweed, and oh yes, salt water. All delicious. 

Only my opinion, but he should stay on a short leash where you can watch him constantly or you're probably going to be doing this all over again. Can you postpone for a couple of weeks?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

If I take him to the beach in a couple of weeks, won't I be doing it all over again after it clears up anyway? 

It'll probably rain tomorrow...


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

If his gut has healed he's less likely to be triggered by small amounts of stuff, but I'll be honest...Boomer our late Golden would find everything nasty on the beach and gobble it, given the chance, often with predictable consequences, for his entire ten years. 

My other dogs never had a problem, so it seems to be a very individual thing. I'd be curious to hear from other Golden owners if this is a Golden thing...my hound could eat a Buick and be just fine and my BC mix is almost as tough, gastrointestinally speaking.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> 3Pebs3, what did you think it was? At first I thought it was a condom, but uh, we don't use those around here, or maybe a bully stick since he swallows them after they get down to 2 inches, but he hasn't had one in 2 weeks.


Marcus had said something about worms before... I was thinking it was maybe a big long worm :yuck:
Very glad to hear it wasn't a worm... or a condom for that matter :uhoh:


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

I started adding A BIT of pumpkin to the chicken and rice said:


> Pumpkin can also be used for constipation. JUST CHICKEN AND RICE and NO TREATS. It was working ........
> 
> Also agree with Noreaster about the beach. Lots of dogs get rocket butt from the salt water. Although it clears up fairly quickly it would not be good for a puppy that has been sick. Also it is thick and black and would freak you out!!!!


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## Henry's Mum (Nov 6, 2013)

Henry would always throw up on the way back from the beach in the car, but at least the salt water was out and he didn't get diarrhea. Now he is older he doesn't get sick any more but he can have a one off loose stool. I've tried taking drinking water with me, but he still bounds for the waves, lies down and swings his head from left to right and drinks some. He has people on the beach staring at this dog lying in the waves. Luckily he stopped trying to eat all the rubbishy stuff on the beach


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Yes expect your dog will throw up.

Thankfully Ben didn't the only time he has been. I expect him to the next time though.

But yes I'd hold off until Sunny is back to normal.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

POOP UPDATE: Breakfast at 8:30, poop at 10:30. It was small, greyish brown, and SOLID! YES! I was literally jumping in excitement. 

I should've listened to you guys, but we were just too keen to take him to the beach. 
He was wonderful in the car during the 40-minute drive. The beach was wonderful, lots of dogs for him to meet. I expected it to be love at first sight when he saw the water, but surprisingly, he was a little weary about it. Ran away from the rolling waves and wouldn't go any deeper than knee-length.
My biggest concern about off-leash areas is recall, but he was very good and stayed with us. Only picked up something in his mouth twice, nothing too bad, and only licked at the salt water a few times. Oh, and he did a *poop* on the sand! It was also solid! The ride home was fine, no vomiting, but that's probably because we had a 2-hour rest and socialisation period before hopping back in the car. 

The outdoor shopping area and beach is a massive tourist attraction, it was packed with hundreds and hundreds of people. Sunny had the best socialisation experience, seeing rollerblades, skateboards, prams, rollerskates and wheelchairs everywhere. Lots of loud music performances. He must've been so tired from the beach because the walk around town was fantastic. He was so well-behaved, you'd think he was a service dog in training. :woot2: Everyone wanted to pat him. No jumping or biting. Just calm little Sunny walking nicely beside me through the crowds. A tired puppy really is a happy puppy, and owner! 

Here's my favourite picture from today, Sunny with a gorgeous red golden.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Haha. The awesome news. Looks like you all had a ball.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

POOP UPDATE: Had lunch at 12:20pm, then at 1pm, took him out for 40 minute walk with rests in between. He did a poop! This was the first one in 24 hours. It came out as a nice solid shape, but when I picked it up, it mushed in my hand so it's quite soft. Since the chicken and rice diet, he only poops once a day, and they're quite small. Before he was doing 3-5 per day and they were MASSIVE big boy poops. 

When should I start adding in the kibble? Should it be gradual? I hope he can go back to his normal diet in the next day or two. The chicken and rice diet has been going on for a week and I feel like he's missing out on the nutrients the kibble provides. Plus he always seems so hungry.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

If you wait until you get a few days of solid poo. Then slowly start adding kibble if that's what you feed him. 

Have you thought about a raw food diet?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Marcus said:


> If you wait until you get a few days of solid poo. Then slowly start adding kibble if that's what you feed him.
> 
> Have you thought about a raw food diet?


I'm going to ignore that sloppy poop from the dog park 2 days ago. So including today, we've had 4 days of sufficiently solid poop, no diarrhea! Today he only pooped once and it was small. It makes me wonder what happens to the rest of the food that goes into him... it just all gets absorbed? 

As for raw, not really, perhaps later in the future, but the breeder has requested I continue with Royal Canin for at least the first year of his life. Royal Canin doesn't seem to be highly regarded though. :/


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

POOP UPDATE: What is going on.... yesterday he pooped at around 1:30pm. He was crated at 11pm. He pawed on the crate every hour, 12, 1, 2am. I checked on him each time to see him laying down there with his head up. I opened the crate once to pat him, closed it and ignored further fussing. At 3, the pawing was more urgent than usual, checked to see he was standing. Quickly opened the crate and he ran outside to poop. Hurray, was kinda black, but nice and solid and a good mount!!! He went back in his crate after this and looked settled this time. Didn't hear from him until 6:30. He was standing up again. Outside, and he squatted, pooped, then squatted a few more times for about 1-2 minutes with constipation. The first poop started out solid, then ended really really sloppy with mucus. There was another tiny sloppy mucusy poop produced too. 

I was so excited about the solid poops, then all of a sudden this happens. You'd think the chicken and rice diet would've cleared everything up by now. I was planning to add kibble today or tomorrow. We went 4 days with solid poops. Yesterday I fed a small amount of small, cubed sweet potato bits. Could it be from this? I feel like I've waited a sufficient amount of time with the solid poops to start giving treats, treats that are healthy and good for poop issues...

Poor kid was feeling so sorry for himself after having almost-diarrhea and constipation, he walked right into my lap for cuddles.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Beach was yesterday, right?

You can wait and see if this resolves quickly or put him back on chicken and rice fir 24 and see if it improves.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Noreaster said:


> Beach was yesterday, right?
> 
> You can wait and see if this resolves quickly or put him back on chicken and rice fir 24 and see if it improves.


Beach was 2 days ago, Noreaster. His poops were same that day and the following day. 

*POOP UPDATE:*
3am - solid poop
6am - mushy poop, long squatting/constipation
9am - tiny, solid black poop

This morning at around 7am, he was dry heaving but nothing came out. 10 minutes later it happened again. He* puked* out a bit of the bark he got into yesterday. Those pots are going to be relocated somewhere out of his reach now... '

Let's see how tonight goes. I'll be adding kibble back into his diet tomorrow. He's gone so long without it.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Could be time of the vet trip?


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

A different vet too. John perhaps?


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Oh and take two or three different poop samples


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

POOP UPDATE: He pooped not long after getting on grass at puppy school. It was mushy, held shape, not diarrhea. Is soft poop serious enough for a vet visit? 
Tonight he had A LOT of chicken pieces and A LOT of treats provided by the school - lamb meatball bits. I'll see how he goes tonight and tomorrow. If the stools become runny, I think I'll go to my usual vet. It's much closer.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Chris, good idea. I'll do that!


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

This is a questionaire that you may find useful Momo.

Diarrhea Questionnaire and Checklist for Dogs

This info is really helpful for your vet. Also as you are answering the questions it helps you decide whether or not you are dealing with a situation that needs a vet.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Harleysmum said:


> This is a questionaire that you may find useful Momo.
> 
> Diarrhea Questionnaire and Checklist for Dogs
> 
> This info is really helpful for your vet. Also as you are answering the questions it helps you decide whether or not you are dealing with a situation that needs a vet.


Thank you so much for sharing this. This is FANTASTIC! If I go to the vet, I'll definitely fill this out and just hand it to them rather than spend 5 minutes trying to explain every little detail. 

I read through it and it seems the answers are on the lower end of severity - stool is semi-formed, blood not present, decreased amount of stool, normal appetite. Only concerning points are - sometimes 1-2 bowel movements per day, sometimes 3-4, inconsistent and unpredictable. No loss of control, but lots of straining when it's particularly sloppy.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

So black stools = internal bleeding. He's been having black stools on and off for a while now. If it's black on the outside, but brown on the inside, it's okay, but if it's black throughout, it's a problem? Looks like I'll be poking his poops around tomorrow and give the vet a call. My parents think I'm crazy and are giving me a hard time about this which doesn't make this whole poop dilemma any easier.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Sorry... last update (at least for tonight). I just woke him up for his last potty before bedtime. He pooped. It was half pancake consistently, half semi-formed. Sigh. At least it wasn't black this time. Yellow and brown. He did squat for over a minute. 

This is such a worrisome on-going issue. I really hope the vet will have a solution.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Hi momo,
Just wanted to let you know you are not alone in this. Rundle has had diarrhea for the past week, and no amount of chicken and rice seems to be clearing it up. We are bringing her to the vet today


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> Hi momo,
> Just wanted to let you know you are not alone in this. Rundle has had diarrhea for the past week, and no amount of chicken and rice seems to be clearing it up. We are bringing her to the vet today


Aww poor Rundle... it's horrible isn't it. 
I hope they figure out what's wrong. Let me know how it goes. 

Last night, Sunny had diarrhea at 10pm, 12am, 2, 4, 6, 7:30, plus vomit in the morning. I was scooping diarrhea up with a plastic spoon and into a little container. That was fun.

We're also taking him to the vet today. Fingers crossed for the both of us!


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

They did a fecal float test and it came back normal. For us what happened was we gave her a raw bone on Sunday that caused her diarrhea (we won't do that again). She then went for her 3rd set of shots/rabies/bordatella/deworming on Tuesday, which probably further aggravated her bowel. They said, upper GI tract is likely very inflamed and just needs some help in the healing process. They gave us a weeks worth of Royal Canin GI food to feed her, a weeks worth of FortiFlora, and a bottle of Metronidazole to administer every 12 hours. $150 later we are hoping she gets back to normal ASAP. I am so tired from sleeping on the couch, waking up multiple times throughout the night, cleaning up pounds of diarrhea, and worrying constantly about Rundle's bowel movements. 
Hope the trip to the vet goes well for Sunny. And thanks for keeping us posted. It has made me feel a lot better knowing I am not alone in the diarrhea battle. Though I wish neither one of us had to deal with this at all!


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> Aww poor Rundle... it's horrible isn't it.
> I hope they figure out what's wrong. Let me know how it goes.
> 
> Last night, Sunny had diarrhea at 10pm, 12am, 2, 4, 6, 7:30, plus vomit in the morning. I was scooping diarrhea up with a plastic spoon and into a little container. That was fun.
> ...


I also scooped up her poop with a plastic spoon and put it in airtight plastic baggy. And then another airtight plastic baggy. And then another airtight plastic baggy. And then a plastic bag. And then my purse... and I could still smell it... :yuck:


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> They did a fecal float test and it came back normal. For us what happened was we gave her a raw bone on Sunday that caused her diarrhea (we won't do that again). She then went for her 3rd set of shots/rabies/bordatella/deworming on Tuesday, which probably further aggravated her bowel. They said, upper GI tract is likely very inflamed and just needs some help in the healing process. They gave us a weeks worth of Royal Canin GI food to feed her, a weeks worth of FortiFlora, and a bottle of Metronidazole to administer every 12 hours. $150 later we are hoping she gets back to normal ASAP. I am so tired from sleeping on the couch, waking up multiple times throughout the night, cleaning up pounds of diarrhea, and worrying constantly about Rundle's bowel movements.
> Hope the trip to the vet goes well for Sunny. And thanks for keeping us posted. It has made me feel a lot better knowing I am not alone in the diarrhea battle. Though I wish neither one of us had to deal with this at all!


I'm also glad I'm not alone in this! Wow, you received a lot of stuff for $150. All I got was medication for 5 days and that cost $180 (including consultation)!!! I got Peptosyl to last 3 days, and Metrogyl tablets to last 5 days. The vet said to continue with chicken and rice. If it doesn't clear up in 5 days, we're to have a blood test and more trial and error treatments. Good bye $$$. 

They'll have results of the fecal test tomorrow hopefully.
Is Rundle pooping in the house or is he asking to go outside? Cleaning up diarrhea in the house multiple times a day/night would be exhausting. I feel for you.  

Sunny paws on the crate, but after the first round of diarrhea, I just let him sleep on his bed beside me. I've been sleeping on a bed downstairs with him since I got him, but getting up half-asleep to open the crate every 3 hours in the night is tiring, so now I just sleep on a mat on the floor with him. Luckily, when he needs to go (every 2 hours), he just runs to the backdoor and rings the bell. I'm tired, but I know it must be more difficult for him, and he's only a baby. It's so painful to watch him squatting for ages... 

Best of luck to our babies. Please keep us posted on how Rundle goes!


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## SurlyMoose (Dec 28, 2014)

Take care momo. Honey had diarrhea which turned out to be a combo of too rich food and coccidia. This board helped me through those sleepless nights. 
I can't think of anything much worse than cleaning up diarrhea at 3 AM.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> I'm also glad I'm not alone in this! Wow, you received a lot of stuff for $150. All I got was medication for 5 days and that cost $180 (including consultation)!!! I got Peptosyl to last 3 days, and Metrogyl tablets to last 5 days. The vet said to continue with chicken and rice. If it doesn't clear up in 5 days, we're to have a blood test and more trial and error treatments. Good bye $$$.
> 
> They'll have results of the fecal test tomorrow hopefully.
> Is Rundle pooping in the house or is he asking to go outside? Cleaning up diarrhea in the house multiple times a day/night would be exhausting. I feel for you.
> ...


I wish we had gotten the tablets! Rundle really does not like the flavour of the Metronidazole syrup. Now that she knows what it looks like, giving it to her over the next few days should be fun! Hopefully the meds they prescribed takes care of it for us! 
Rundle is still peeing outside, but her diarrhea is too hard to predict. She stands at the door of our balcony and we open it for her to go out there. It does mean a lot of cleaning up. It's nice that she still knows she needs to go outside though, even if its not down 26 floors and in the grass. 
But, as you said... though I am tired, a lot of the tiredness is more over worry for her. 
Yes, fingers crossed this is over soon. I'll keep you posted!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

SurlyMoose said:


> Take care momo. Honey had diarrhea which turned out to be a combo of too rich food and coccidia. This board helped me through those sleepless nights.
> I can't think of anything much worse than cleaning up diarrhea at 3 AM.


Thank you SurlyMoose. I'm glad Honey's okay now! Luckily I have only had to clean up explosive diarrhea just once during this time. Now I just go outside with him every 2 hours and hose it away. 
Rundle's mum is in my thoughts. Cleaning up diarrhea every night would be a pain.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3, I'm so sorry, I keep referring to Rundle as "he". Sorry! 
Are you able to stir the syrup through his food or is it not as effective? The liquid medicine I give Sunny is like a pastel pink. I squirt it using a syringe on his food like a sauce. He doesn't seem to mind it. 

Forti Flora is a probiotic right? I wish my vet gave me that. I've just been doing some research on it. Had I known sooner I would have asked the vet about it. I'll be asking about it tomorrow on the phone before I order some online. Is yours in powder form? 

Let us know of any improvements! 
Sunny got really yellow diarrhea about an hour after the vet.  Nothing for the past 11 hours.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Hey I just found out that Metronidazole and Metrogyl are the same thing! Do you know if Metronidazole is an antibiotic? That's what I've read, but just to confirm. My vet didn't explain the medications she gave me, probably think I wasn't interested to know. 
If it's an antibiotic, would a probiotic go hand-in-hand? I wonder why the vet didn't give me any...


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> 3Pebs3, I'm so sorry, I keep referring to Rundle as "he". Sorry!
> Are you able to stir the syrup through his food or is it not as effective? The liquid medicine I give Sunny is like a pastel pink. I squirt it using a syringe on his food like a sauce. He doesn't seem to mind it.
> 
> Forti Flora is a probiotic right? I wish my vet gave me that. I've just been doing some research on it. Had I known sooner I would have asked the vet about it. I'll be asking about it tomorrow on the phone before I order some online. Is yours in powder form?
> ...


Hi Momo, 
I am going to try mixing a small amount of the syrup in with a small amount her food and see if she will take it that way. It would be great if she would, but I don't want to waste an entire dose of her medicine in case she will not. I will know in the next half hour. 
Forti Flora is a probiotic. It comes in a powder that I just have to sprinkle on top of her food once a day. 
Rundle has had really yellow diarrhea for days. But, she has not gone in almost 24 hours now. I'll be interested to see what comes out now that she has had some medication. 



momo_ said:


> Hey I just found out that Metronidazole and Metrogyl are the same thing! Do you know if Metronidazole is an antibiotic? That's what I've read, but just to confirm. My vet didn't explain the medications she gave me, probably think I wasn't interested to know.
> If it's an antibiotic, would a probiotic go hand-in-hand? I wonder why the vet didn't give me any...


Ya I looked up the names you posted and found out they were the same thing last night. It is an antibiotic. But, why your vet prescribed the meds she did I have no idea. I do like that the Peptosyl has analgesic properties to it.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Oh, and don't worry about the he thing. You have a boy, so that makes sense that he is your go to. Rundle is actually a boy's name too.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Yay! Pouring the syrup over Rundle's food worked! So glad I don't have to force her to take her medicine. Thanks for the tip


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Oh great, I'm glad it worked! I knew for sure it'd work for Sunny because he eats everything. Speaking of everything, I went outside and saw a really dark brown pancake batter-like poop. It was so odd-looking. I hosed it down and there was SO much bark! The morning of yesterday and the day before, he was puking bark, and this morning he pooped out a lot of bark. Is it possible that the medication is getting rid of it in his body? It looked like a full-blown detox, but I'm sure there's more in him. 

The bark comes from two pot plants that have been a recent addition to the backyard. I just asked my dad when he put them there and he said 1-2 weeks ago, which is around the same time Sunny started having diarrhea. Could this be the culprit?! They have been moved out of his reach now. Hopefully the meds minus bark-eating will show some major improvements in the next few days. 

Sunny pooped at around 12pm yesterday, and didn't poop again until around 7:30am this morning. He went 11-6 in his crate, not a peep. Yes! 

How have Rundle's bowel movements been?


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

hahaha yeah probably Bark... 

I said to my wife last night as Ben was munching on a plant... 

"I'd hate to see what's sitting in his tummy."

I wonder how they digest these things


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Rundle has not had a bowel movement since yesterday morning around 7:30am, and it is now 4pm in the afternoon where I am. We are hoping something solid is building in her belly, but it's getting to the point where we are like "poop already." Meanwhile days previously, all we could think is, "stop. pooping." 
Funny how that works, eh?


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Check what kind of bark it is. When we mulch our plant beds we make sure it is a pet friendly kind. There is some that can be toxic to dogs. There is even one with cocoa.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> Rundle has not had a bowel movement since yesterday morning around 7:30am, and it is now 4pm in the afternoon where I am. We are hoping something solid is building in her belly, but it's getting to the point where we are like "poop already." Meanwhile days previously, all we could think is, "stop. pooping."
> Funny how that works, eh?


It's building up!
Haha yes, we were going days with minimal poop, then too much, then too little. :doh:


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Cpc1972 said:


> Check what kind of bark it is. When we mulch our plant beds we make sure it is a pet friendly kind. There is some that can be toxic to dogs. There is even one with cocoa.


I'm not sure if my dad still has the bag that says the brand/type of bark, but I'll ask, and in future I'll let him know to get the pet-friendly kind. Thank you!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Called the vet for results of the fecal test - no worms or giardia. The vet has asked to continue monitoring his stools. If they don't firm up after the 5 days of medication, he has to go in for an X-ray to check for any obstructions. They noticed he tried to eat rocks when we took him out for potty mid-way during the consultation. 

If he has consumed a foreign object, like a rock to cause a partial obstruction, would this considered an accident or an illness? I would think it's an accident, and therefore diarrhea is a symptom of the accident. I called Sunny's pet insurance company yesterday - we have 6 days remaining of the 30-day illness waiting period, which means if he had giardia, or any illness, it would now be considered a pre-existing condition and not covered by the policy. Accidents are covered from the day of policy's commencement, which means if he has an obstruction and if an obstruction is an accident, he'd be covered. Would that mean all examinations, x-rays and treatments for the obstruction are covered? 

I wish I had started the policy a week earlier!! 

Edit: According to the PDS, symptoms resulting from an obstruction are considered an "illness", which means I'm not covered because I'm still in the waiting period. I'm expecting surgery to get an obstruction removed to cost at least $500-1000. My gosh. What a time to be unemployed. :/


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

That's great news about no worms or giardia. Hopefully there is no obstruction either, and everything firms up ASAP. 
On our side, Rundle finally pooped! And it was perfectly formed and completely normal in colour, size, and texture. It seems that the 3 way attack with the probiotic, antibiotic and GI food is working. We are so relieved! We will continue with all of the medications and food till they are finished, but seeing a normal poop for the first time since last Sunday is a breath of fresh air. Hopefully she continues on this track now.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> That's great news about no worms or giardia. Hopefully there is no obstruction either, and everything firms up ASAP.
> On our side, Rundle finally pooped! And it was perfectly formed and completely normal in colour, size, and texture. It seems that the 3 way attack with the probiotic, antibiotic and GI food is working. We are so relieved! We will continue with all of the medications and food till they are finished, but seeing a normal poop for the first time since last Sunday is a breath of fresh air. Hopefully she continues on this track now.


That is AMAZING news!!! I'm so happy for you and Rundle! Let us know if she continues to have great poops. 

It's 11:50am here. I'm hoping for at least another poop today. If it's not firming up at all, I'm going to have a cry about the possibility of an obstruction.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> That is AMAZING news!!! I'm so happy for you and Rundle! Let us know if she continues to have great poops.
> 
> It's 11:50am here. I'm hoping for at least another poop today. If it's not firming up at all, I'm going to have a cry about the possibility of an obstruction.



Thanks momo. I will keep you posted. 
I hope things do firm up for you. We had to wait about 30 hours or something like that for Rundle to poop again. But, hopefully you get another one today that looks better than this mornings. Then again, maybe it will just take him some time to clear the bark out of his system and then it will firm up. Bowel movements are definitely better than no bowel movements.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> Thanks momo. I will keep you posted.
> I hope things do firm up for you. We had to wait about 30 hours or something like that for Rundle to poop again. But, hopefully you get another one today that looks better than this mornings. Then again, maybe it will just take him some time to clear the bark out of his system and then it will firm up. Bowel movements are definitely better than no bowel movements.


34 hours since the vet visit. Since then, he's pooped twice, diarrhea both times.  9pm now, no poops since 7:30am. Oh Sunny... 

I've been reading about partial obstructions. It is possible to allow nature to take its course and allow the obstruction to pass naturally. I hope, if it's nothing serious, the vet will suggest this option!


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> 9pm now, no poops since 7:30am. Oh Sunny..


Maybe he's building a solid one now too? 
As per Rundle there was just the one solid poop yesterday. But, she slept from 11:30-6 in her crate with no problems whatsoever. In fact, she didn't ask to get up at 6, but I heard her moving around, so I just got up with her then. I guess I was eager to see if we would get solid poop number 2 (pun intended). And we did! I have no reason to believe now that Rundle isn't back to her normal self. Hopefully she gets back to normal poop schedule soon too, so the guesswork of "are you going to go, or are you not going to go," will be over. 
Keeping my fingers crossed for Sunny!!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> Maybe he's building a solid one now too?
> As per Rundle there was just the one solid poop yesterday. But, she slept from 11:30-6 in her crate with no problems whatsoever. In fact, she didn't ask to get up at 6, but I heard her moving around, so I just got up with her then. I guess I was eager to see if we would get solid poop number 2 (pun intended). And we did! I have no reason to believe now that Rundle isn't back to her normal self. Hopefully she gets back to normal poop schedule soon too, so the guesswork of "are you going to go, or are you not going to go," will be over.
> Keeping my fingers crossed for Sunny!!


That's great!!! :banana::banana::banana:
Was it a big one considering she only pooped once yesterday? Glad you can finally get some sleep. 
Sunny's last poop was around 7:30am yesterday, and right now it's 8:30am. I'm getting concerned. How much time did you have to wait in between poops? 
After lunch, if Sunny doesn't poop by 2-3pm, I'm calling the vet. :uhoh:
It doesn't help that my parents still think he's totally fine and yell at me for making up problems to "waste money" on. I feel alone in this at home, so it's nice to have this forum's support.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> That's great!!! :banana::banana::banana:
> Was it a big one considering she only pooped once yesterday? Glad you can finally get some sleep.
> Sunny's last poop was around 7:30am yesterday, and right now it's 8:30am. I'm getting concerned. How much time did you have to wait in between poops?
> After lunch, if Sunny doesn't poop by 2-3pm, I'm calling the vet. :uhoh:
> It doesn't help that my parents still think he's totally fine and yell at me for making up problems to "waste money" on. I feel alone in this at home, so it's nice to have this forum's support.


Honestly, it was a long time between Rundle's last diarrhea poop and her first solid one. I estimated it was around 30 hours. I read online that it can take a long time for things to "build up" again after a long bout of diarrhea. We probably would have kept on waiting longer than 30 hours too as she didn't have any other symptoms like distention of her belly. I'm not so sure you need to worry yet, so long as Sunny seems okay in all other respects. Things might just be getting back to normal for him now. At least I hope :dblthumb2


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Oh and to answer your other question, it was really just normal sized ones when she pooped yesterday and the two times she went this morning. Today she was bouncing off the walls. She must have been feeling really good compared to the past few days.... so we brought her to doggy daycare to burn off some energy.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

It's been 30 hours Pebs!!!  He's holding in FIVE meals. 
The vet called a few hours ago and I explained the situation. She said he should definitely poop sometime today, and if not I told her I'd call in the afternoon. She also said to feel his stomach and push a little to see if he shows any discomfort. I tried and he seems totally fine. 
It's now almost 1:30pm. We're going to the shops at 3pm and I'd like to take Sunny for a little car ride and then a walk around the complex. The vet is there, maybe I'll drop by and have a chat with them. Though, if it's nothing serious, I hope they don't pull me in for a consult, because we're already going tomorrow again.

I'll be taking him for a walk at around 4:30pm. Praying that it'll get things moving! If not, I guess we'll just have to wait until tomorrow morning, which would be 50 hours since his last poop... 


On the bright side, since yesterday, he's started to go into his crate to take short naps. He never goes in voluntarily like that! Perhaps it's because I've made it more spacious for him, and the weathers cool enough not to always sleep on the tiles.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

I'm agreeing with the vet and saying he'll definitely poop today. I bet it will be a good one too! Looking forward to your celebration and scrapbook picture  
Hope you have a good walk around the shops and congrats on the napping in the crate!


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Crossing my fingers for a Sunny Poop! Poop, Sunny, poop!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Thanks everyone! 32 hours later... nothing. Perhaps after dinner. I called the vet again to let her know. She said as long as he's acting okay, he'll be fine until our visit tomorrow. 

Just to give you an idea of how uncooperative my dad is, he just removed the fencing that blocked off an area with lots of gravel for convenience and aesthetic reasons. Sunny used to get into it all the time. 

I told my dad the dog probably already has a partial obstruction, unblocking that area is the WORST thing to do. He refused to listen to me. I said if anything happens, he should pay the vet bills. Unnecessary verbal abuse ensues. Sigh..


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

I am sorry about your dad.  

Will be checking here for a vet update. So glad Sunny is acting OK, though. That is great!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Anele said:


> I am sorry about your dad.
> 
> Will be checking here for a vet update. So glad Sunny is acting OK, though. That is great!


Thanks Anele! After a 30-minute walk, a bath and dinner, still nothing yet. :no:


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> Just to give you an idea of how uncooperative my dad is, he just removed the fencing that blocked off an area with lots of gravel for convenience and aesthetic reasons. Sunny used to get into it all the time. I told my dad the dog probably already has a partial obstruction, unblocking that area is the WORST thing to do. He refused to listen to me. I said if anything happens, he should pay the vet bills. Unnecessary verbal abuse ensues. Sigh..


Parents are so used to being the bearer of knowledge that sometimes they have a hard time accepting when their kids are all grown up that they might just know a thing, or two, or more, as well. It sucks that your Dad isn't being more understanding, but, for yourself and own peace of mind, there is the option of keeping him on a leash every time he goes outside. Or maybe fence off a "Sunny area" that is off to the side or less offensive to the eye. 

As per the poop, Sunny is really making you work for it eh? Hoping you see something soon!


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## SurlyMoose (Dec 28, 2014)

Crossing fingers and toes for a poop. 

In other news, I never thought that this would be important to a group of people but here we all are, wishing for a nice poop.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

*Vet visit update*: Sunny has not pooped in 51 hours! Went in for a recheck today. Sunny was very excited, acting completely normal. The vet had a good feel of his stomach to check for blockages - nothing. She stuck a finger up his butt and said "It's there, it's solid, no blood, not runny, it's gonna be a big one waiting to come out!" YES!!! So she goes to insert some lube in there to make things easier for him, and instead manages to pull out a chunk of bark. That chunk was possibly acting as a plug, but there's probably more bark inside him still. It is reassuring to here the vet say the possibility of a blockage is very, very low, but if he still doesn't poop at all today, we have to take him to another clinic tomorrow for an x-ray which will cost $300. Let's hope he goes so we won't need the x-ray and I can use that money to buy him a nice flirt pole! 

Poop gods, please give us something, he's holding in SEVEN meals and counting!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Crosses fingers and toes

I must be lucky Ben always seems to pass all the bark and sticks and other non digestable stuff he eats


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> *Vet visit update*: Sunny has not pooped in 51 hours! Went in for a recheck today. Sunny was very excited, acting completely normal. The vet had a good feel of his stomach to check for blockages - nothing. She stuck a finger up his butt and said "It's there, it's solid, no blood, not runny, it's gonna be a big one waiting to come out!" YES!!! So she goes to insert some lube in there to make things easier for him, and instead manages to pull out a chunk of bark. That chunk was possibly acting as a plug, but there's probably more bark inside him still. It is reassuring to here the vet say the possibility of a blockage is very, very low, but if he still doesn't poop at all today, we have to take him to another clinic tomorrow for an x-ray which will cost $300. Let's hope he goes so we won't need the x-ray and I can use that money to buy him a nice flirt pole!
> 
> Poop gods, please give us something, he's holding in SEVEN meals and counting!


I like that your vet isn't pushing you to spend tons of money on procedures Sunny likely doesn't need. Crazy all this bark he has inside of him though. Golden's really do pick up and eat everything! I have to watch Rundle like a hawk when we are out on walks together. And almost every other time we are outside I am taking something out of her mouth. She has gotten very used to my hand being inside of her mouth. Hoping now that the "plug" is gone you get a sizeable firm poop out of Sunny. We are all keeping our fingers crossed for you!:crossfing


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

*WE HAVE A POOP!!!!*

3 hours after the vet visit and 30 minutes after his lunch, I found a poop in the backyard! He must've gone in the 10 minutes that I was eating lunch. I missed seeing the squat and all! Probably I good thing, I would've shed a tear. Over a poop. 

It was small, dark and solid. So solid, in fact, that I couldn't even slice it with a stick. It had the texture of a brownie. Not the cakey kind, the hard fudge-like, good quality kind. I actually poked it with my finger and it was really hard, which suggests maybe he did it in the morning but I never noticed it? 
Anyway, I hosed it down to check if there was any more bark in it. NONE! But, there was a big hairball of dried grass. 

I was so happy I literally jumped with joy yelling "WOOHOO!!!". Sunny wanted to join in and jumped up on me. 

Of course, I took pictures! Don't want to gross anyone out with a close-up, so here's this. Umm, he's got some grass hanging out of his mouth. Typical. 

Thanks everyone for your support. Let's hope for many more poops to come!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

*claps*

Woot


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

arty2: I have been checking GRF religiously for this update. Congratulations to you and Sunny!! arty2:
The dam has been broken and you have a healthy poop!! Yippee!!!! So happy for you!! This is definitely one for the books. Hopefully things can get back to normal for you two now :crossing :yipee:


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

Thank G0d! But please do not talk about poop and brownies in the same sentence!


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## SurlyMoose (Dec 28, 2014)

momo_ said:


> *WE HAVE A POOP!!!!*
> 
> 3 hours after the vet visit and 30 minutes after his lunch, I found a poop in the backyard! He must've gone in the 10 minutes that I was eating lunch. I missed seeing the squat and all! Probably I good thing, I would've shed a tear. Over a poop.
> 
> ...


Logged in first thing in the morning to see this. Wasn't disappointed.

WOOT! WOOT!arty:


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Today is film "A Day in the Life of Sunny" day. After letting him out to potty, he wanted out again. I checked on him 3 minutes later, video camera in hand, to find he was eating a huge chunk of dug up grass/dirt. Zoomed in closer to find he was actually eating his poop! Maybe he's been pooping in the mornings all along but I never knew because I stay inside. Who knows.
The poop was much like yesterday's - really dark and hard, which lots of dried grass in it. No bark! 
Today he'll receive his last dosage of Peptosyl, and I think I'll start adding a handle of kibble to see if that gets things moving some more! 

Thanks again everyone for your enthusiasm. Only here can I talk and find support over something like this without sounding like a complete lunatic. :artydude


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

For real this time guys. I was there to witness the squat. It happened immediately after his breakfast of rice, chicken, bit of pumpkin, a handful of kibble, a tbps of Yakult and his medication. 

It came out as rock hard, thick logs, but broken up. It was very, very solid! The consistently will probably go back to normal after he's pooped out the 8 meals he was holding in before. :doh:

Yay we're so happy! Dog park today buddy!


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

A+ Sunny! Have a great day at the dog park!! Although I wouldn't make a habit of munching on your own poop!!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Unfortunately, the diarrhea has returned.  

After the vet recheck, his poops were extremely hard, solid and black for a few days. Then they were normal for around 1.5 weeks - brown, solid and HUGE. I was so happy I took pictures. :bowl: He'd go every morning after waking up, and almost immediately after every meal. They were very predictable which is great.

Just recently, for the past few days, every 1 out of 4 poops have been soft. I don't think much of it, because it started around the time he started teething. 
Yesterday, he pooped before bedtime. The first squat, the poop was thick and solid. Great. He squated again, and it was formed, but very soft. He wanted out of his crate at 4am. I thought he was being a brat, but turns out he needed to go. It was really sloppy, like "pudding". 2 hours after breakfast, he goes again, and it's also really sloppy and mucusy. 

I'm certain it's not an obstruction like last time. It could be from:
1. Teething 
2. Me feeding him a small amount of shredded cheese on walks for the past 2 days 
3. Me giving him an oven-dried kangaroo bone to chew on for the past 2 nights
4. Giving him yoghurt, but I doubt it's the yoghurt, since he's had it since 8 weeks with no issues
5. Started giving him some doggie biscuits, 1 or 2 per day since 5 days ago. 

It could be a combination of those things! 

Since the last diarrhea episode, I've started adding Protexin, a powder probiotic. I've increased the amount since the sloppy poops have started. 

I'll take away the bone and cheese and see if it helps. I don't want to have to put him on a chicken and rice diet after every soft stool, so for now he'll get the regular kibble, chicken, rice, pumpkin diet. Hopefully things clear up really soon!


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

That really sucks that he has diarrhea again. We have been so worried about it coming back, we are not longer "testing the waters," so to speak until Rundle gets older. By that I mean we are only giving Rundle things that have been proven solid and true in the past and not giving her any new kinds of treats etc. What is clear is these pups have sensitive tummies... I hope Sunny's diarrhea resolves quickly this time!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> That really sucks that he has diarrhea again. We have been so worried about it coming back, we are not longer "testing the waters," so to speak until Rundle gets older. By that I mean we are only giving Rundle things that have been proven solid and true in the past and not giving her any new kinds of treats etc. What is clear is these pups have sensitive tummies... I hope Sunny's diarrhea resolves quickly this time!


Sounds like a smart idea! He's back to a chicken and rice diet again, and now we'll introduce each treat individually so I can figure out which is the culprit. I hope it's not the bully sticks. They're so good for keeping him occupied and giving me some time. He walks nicely on a leash for cheese, but he's probably lactose intolerant! Last night he banged on the crate, I left the door open for him, then at around 5:30am he rang the bell to go out and had diarrhea. Then again at around 7:30, and again at 8:30. Things were going SO well. Here's hoping that things will clear up much faster now that I know it's not an obstruction but a diet issue... I think... He doesn't need to be losing any more weight.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

What you feeding him again? Make sure your not over feeding this will cause the runs


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Marcus said:


> What you feeding him again? Make sure your not over feeding this will cause the runs


Hey Marcus, I thought about this being a potential cause, but I don't think he's being overfed? He gets around 3-4 cups of Royal Canin. The bag says at his age and at his predicted adult weight, he should be getting 4 cups. This will continue to increase up to 5.5 cups by the time he's 6 months, then it'll gradually go back down to 3 cups and say there. 

Usually I'll feed 1 cup per meal (3 meals), along with a small amount of chicken, rice and pumpkin. By small I mean 1 tablespoon of chicken, 1 tablespoon of rice and 1/2 tablespoon of pumpkin. 
I'll use the other 1/2 or 1 cup of kibble for training or in his Kong. And he gets some extra chicken for training, and Schmacko some days, and a cookie, and some banana, and some dried sweet potato... It sounds a lot typing it out but it doesn't seem like too much! 

Maybe I should cut back down to 3 cups, but I don't want to be taking away the nutrition, especially since he lost weight during those 2 weeks of diarrhea, plus again now.

When things clear up again, I'll be careful about the treats I give him. Probably no more kangaroo bones or bully sticks or cheese for a while to be safe!


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

You have to remember that all these "extras" count. Remember all the overweight people - "I only eat salad at mealtimes" then forget about the packets of chips, soft drink, biscuits, latte coffees, wine, more wine etc. It all counts and if you are feeding any treats you have to reduce their meals accordingly. When we got Harley I had to buy a small bowl because I couldn't stop adding things to his "golden retriever" size bowl because it didn't "look" enough. Now I weigh his meals religiously because I can't be trusted!!!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Harleysmum said:


> You have to remember that all these "extras" count. Remember all the overweight people - "I only eat salad at mealtimes" then forget about the packets of chips, soft drink, biscuits, latte coffees, wine, more wine etc. It all counts and if you are feeding any treats you have to reduce their meals accordingly. When we got Harley I had to buy a small bowl because I couldn't stop adding things to his "golden retriever" size bowl because it didn't "look" enough. Now I weigh his meals religiously because I can't be trusted!!!


What if I feed only 3 cups (as opposed to the suggested 4 cups) with small treats in between? 
I'm glad I went with a small bowl because even then it doesn't seem "filled up"! 
Is the main reason you weigh his meals because you don't want him to become overweight or because even the smallest amount over causes the runs? 

I'll be watching his treat intake more carefully now. Thank you.  
No poops for the past 14 hours. Hoping for no middle of the night diarrhea and some firmer stools tomorrow morning!


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

When we got Harley he was about 4kg overweight. We couldn't seem to shift the weight until we started weighing it. You do a lot of training which means a lot of treats. It might help to weigh all your treats at the start of the day so you know how much you are feeding totally. I feed raw so weighing works for me but it might be different if you feed kibble and treats, i.e. one cup of treats won't equal one cup of kibble.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Harleysmum said:


> I feed raw


Same... so it's easier to adjust for me as well, I feed 3 hand fulls for morning and night.

Sometimes 2 handfulls in the morning and 3 at night.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

I feel that raw, like skinny jeans, is not for everyone. 

I personally would buy a small bag of Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach and start phasing sunny in on that. Millie's stomach got sensitive around 6 weeks of age so the breeder switched her to that and she did just great on it. 

Dump the pumpkin because it's not doing what you are intending it to. Only use kibble as treats.

We switched to two meals a day at 13 weeks. Maybe that'll benefit him too.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

For training, I use kibble and boiled chicken pieces anyway, sometimes banana, so it's not really unhealthy? 

Last night was shocking. Crated at 10:30, he rattled on it at 11:30. Let him out, he slept on the floor for 5 seconds, so I went to the crate and told him to go in. He did, and immediately settled. 1:30am... rattling on the crate. He goes in and outside around 4 times, peed the first time, and then decided it'd be a great time to sit in the rain, stare down cane toads and eat grass. I was just standing there frustrated and freezing. 
I'm okay with him waking me up numerous times in the middle of the night if he has tummy problems, but this was ridiculous. He's never this bad. Lately, he's always waking me up in the middle of the night, every night - I'm hoping he does this because he "feels" it coming, but each time he goes outside the urge to go passes? 
I'm exhausted by this point and mum comes downstairs to help out. Crated again. Rattling at 3:30. He wanders outside for a few minutes before pooping. It's not diarrhea, thank goodness, and I'm pleased he woke me up for an acceptable reason this time. Most of it is fairly formed, still loose, but not too bad. Crate until 6:20. 

Yesterday we took him to the dog park in the afternoon, had a good training session late afternoon and a long walk. He's well exercised everyday, how could he be waking up like 4 times in the middle of the night, sometimes to play? The day before, he was pretty much awake from 1pm until 10pm from beach adventures, and he still fussed. He had diarrhea in the morning so again, I'm linking his unsettled behaviour to his funny tummy. Last night was different though. I'm hoping this behaviour stops once he starts pooping as usual again, and not that he's developed a habit of not sleeping at night! 

Chris - Pro Plan sounds good, I might try that after a few weeks of solid poop. With 2 meals per day, you still follow the feeding suggestions on the bag, right? For example, if Sunny's supposed to get 4 cups per day divided into 3 meals, now I'd be feeding 2 cups twice per day?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

The small bags of Pro Plan are on a BIG sale at Petbarn, that's a coincidence! I might pick one up today.
I never mentioned this before but Sunny also scratches and chews on himself a lot. In the mornings, he'll sometimes itch for a good 10-20 minutes, and does it constantly through the day. I think his fur is thinning in areas he chews at a lot. It could be a food allergy...? Perhaps an allergy to chicken?! I feel like that would be the worst allergy for him to have, because chicken bits are our favourite training treats, and since he has so many bouts of diarrhea, we use chicken a lot for that. 

Bit of a silly question, but is the sensitive skin and stomach formula any less "beneficial" than say, the large breed puppy formulas which are specifically for strong bones, joints, muscles etc.? Or does sensitive skin and stomach still provide that? I've read the descriptions and the sensitive one doesn't touch much on growth development so I was just wondering. 

I'm really eager to try something new for him though, because he's been scratching so much since I got him!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Are you still worming him, He needs to be wormed every month for the first 6 months then once a year after that.

Also Ben didn't hang on all night until 6 months


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

I don't know if it will be any less beneficial as such but it was good enough for our breeder to send her home on. 

I'm sure though the benefit of less scratching and a better tummy would outweigh any potential loss. 

I would start the change now though, whilst his stomach is upset. I don't see any point of his tummy being out of whack, coming good, and then potentially being put out of whack again. Add a tiny bit to the chicken and rice. Use it as training treats instead of chicken, being new he might see it just as rewarding


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Millie moves around a lot at night. She never sleeps right through. 

The only time I acknowledge her restlessness is if she is giving me the "I need to go" signal. 

I know it's hard at this point with his tummy but if you get up every time he fusses then you will create a monster


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

And what you are giving as treats isn't unhealthy, it's just not helping you or him get towards a healthy gut. 

Just got to keep it simple.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Yes he's up to date with all heart worming and intestinal worming. Sunny was fine with being asleep all night since 10 weeks. He's only just started to fuss around 3 weeks ago when it all started. 

I'm going out to buy PPP SS today, but I should be introducing it slowly with his regular kibble over the span of 1 week right? 1/5 of Pro Plan with 4/5 of his usual kibble, then 2/5, 3/5 etc. 
He's still on a bland diet of chicken and rice, and I'd like to continue until the end of today. Might try giving him kibble tomorrow if his poops improve.
Millie sleeps in your bedroom right? Sunny's signal to potty is the bell. His signal to wander outside is also the bell. It's gonna be tricky once he's allowed out of the crate, so like you suggested, I'll have to take the bell away until morning. I had a nightmare that the back door was open and Sunny took a massive dump right by the door.

Usually, he'll go through the night without fussing until around 6-6:30. If I want him to sleep, I'll say "go to sleep" and sometimes he'll settle and sleep in for another 20-30 minutes. I have ignored pawing at the crate before, and 3 times he's had diarrhea in the crate. It ranges from really urgent rattling, to 1-2 scratches every few seconds. I never know so be sure, I let him out every time. He was a monster yesterday, I was so tired I cried like a baby, loud enough for my mum to come downstairs. :| 

Once his poops are back to normal, I will be ignoring him. But once he is 100% again, he shouldn't be doing this. 

Using kibble and chicken as treats is as simple as it gets, isn't it?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

It's 11am and he's still sleeping. He's become a night owl who sleeps in until lunch time.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> Sunny's signal to potty is the bell. His signal to wander outside is also the bell.


Number one reason I didn't go down the bell route.

TBH, I'm against crates. My advice is to let him sleep with you. 
As soon as I did that with Ben, He was fine all night. I think once he locked in that the bed is his bed also, then he didn't poop were he sleep. And I think as e is a pack animal and you're a part of his pack, and dogs sleep together in a pack. It settled him down a lot more.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Marcus said:


> Number one reason I didn't go down the bell route.
> 
> TBH, I'm against crates. My advice is to let him sleep with you.
> As soon as I did that with Ben, He was fine all night. I think once he locked in that the bed is his bed also, then he didn't poop were he sleep. And I think as e is a pack animal and you're a part of his pack, and dogs sleep together in a pack. It settled him down a lot more.



There are pros and cons of the bell, I don't regret it, because the sound of frequent barking to go out in an echoing house easily startles me! 

And the most ideal situation would of course be him sleeping in my bedroom with me. Even better, on my bed! Unfortunately, my bedroom is upstairs and I don't know how he'd do transitioning from crate with backdoor a few steps away, to contained bedroom upstairs with a long journey to the backdoor. If he were to bark to get out of my room, we'd have to go downstairs, through the baby gates, and walk through the living room just to get to the backdoor. If he really needed to go, I'm not sure if he could make it down fast enough. And if it's to play, then I'd be really, REALLY mad. I'm tired as it is with the backdoor literally beside my bed downstairs. For the past 3 months, I've been sleeping in the living room in an open concept house. It's not nice. One day I would like him sleeping upstairs but I don't know if he'd like it. 

I have allowed him to sleep uncrated before when he had diarrhea a few weeks ago. I pulled my mattress down on the ground, and let him sleep in bed with me. He didn't ring the bell until 5am. He can hold it in longer in the crate. 

I think I'll wait another month or two before I try moving him upstairs, and when I know he 100% does not need to poop in the middle of the night. His bladder should be stronger by then too.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> I'm tired as it is with the backdoor literally beside my bed downstairs. For the past 3 months, I've been sleeping in the living room in an open concept house. It's not nice. One day I would like him sleeping upstairs but I don't know if he'd like it.


You are the most dedicated puppy owner I've ever met. If you decide to ever have children. You will be a super mum no question.

I'd say once he's pooping solid again. Take him upstairs for a night. Get your cleaning products ready "Natures miracle " spay etc. And give it a go, what's the worst that can happen, he'll poop or wee on the carpet... no big deal he's a dog after all. Clean it up and move on


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Marcus said:


> You are the most dedicated puppy owner I've ever met. If you decide to ever have children. You will be a super mum no question.
> 
> I'd say once he's pooping solid again. Take him upstairs for a night. Get your cleaning products ready "Natures miracle " spay etc. And give it a go, what's the worst that can happen, he'll poop or wee on the carpet... no big deal he's a dog after all. Clean it up and move on


That is so kind of you to say, Marcus! Thank you.  I feel like an overbearing parent at times. 

Ah, another thing about moving him upstairs. My parents sleep in different rooms, and my bedroom is right in the middle of it! I don't think they'd appreciate him walking around and barking. Fingers crossed he settles well upstairs when the time comes. Alternatively, there's another bedroom that's more separated from all the other bedrooms, but it's away from the bathroom upstairs. The bathroom is beside my bedroom, and I thought it'd be nice to leave my door open so he has the choice to sleep on the bathroom tiles if it's too hot, and I can easily check on him this way. I will have to put a baby gate at the top of the staircase if this is the case.

Sunny has been reliably potty-trained since 3 months old, but that's because we gated off carpeted areas and upstairs. If I were to ignore his signals upstairs, and he did go, wouldn't he think it's then okay to potty inside upstairs? I can't yell at him either because it would've been my fault.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

momo_ said:


> Sunny has been reliably potty-trained since 3 months old, but that's because we gated off carpeted areas and upstairs. If I were to ignore his signals upstairs, and he did go, wouldn't he think it's then okay to potty inside upstairs? I can't yell at him either because it would've been my fault.



When we decided to get Millie to work on holding it all in during the night we had been getting up every two hours to let her out so we just started making it every three hours, then once in the middle of the night, then only two hours before we'd normally get up and finally not get up in the middle of the night at all. 

It was an easy, gradual process for us.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Chritty said:


> When we decided to get Millie to work on holding it all in during the night we had been getting up every two hours to let her out so we just started making it every three hours, then once in the middle of the night, then only two hours before we'd normally get up and finally not get up in the middle of the night at all.
> 
> It was an easy, gradual process for us.


This is what I did with crate-training in the night. Does that mean I have to go back to square now uncrated? 2 hours, 3 hours etc.? He can hold it for 8 hours but uncrated maybe 5 hours, so maybe I'll start with just once a night. Hopefully he understands that in time he won't get any break in the middle of the night and sleeps through! 

I'm out to buy the food and some storage containers (probably need 20) so I can start cleaning up my bedroom now! Oh, and maybe invest in another crate for upstairs in case he ever wants it (HA!).


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> He can hold it for 8 hours but uncrated maybe 5 hours


Boom there's your answer. Go to bed at about 10.30-11pm take him out at 3am and then back to bed until 7-8am.

I bet he'll be fine...

Worst case he can't hold it and goes in your bedroom. Then clean it up and adjust your timing rinse and repeat


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

We decided to stop crating Rundle at night a few days ago too. She is fine at night outside of her crate, so there is really no point in making her go in there. 
On an aside, Rundle just had a runny poop again tonight. I can't believe it! I wonder if its because I gave her some treats today (that she has had before and been fine) in addition to just her regular food/pumpkin, or if its from something she managed to grab off the ground... gah, I am hoping this is a one off, and not the start of a whole other round with her.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Sounds good Marcus, I probably won't even need to set an alarm because he's a light sleeper at night and will probably wake me up for wees anyway. But if he doesn't, I'll see how he goes! It'll still be another month before we begin the transition. For now, I'll try to bring him upstairs once in a while in the day and see if he'll settle to take a nap in my room. So far, he's only had negative experiences upstairs... bath time. 


Pebs, really?! Great to know Rundle's doing well uncrated at night! Does she ever wake up in the middle of the night for a play, or does she sleep right through? 
It'd be a coincidence if Rundle were to start another round with Sunny. But hoping she'll be okay tonight! 
Sunny has been sleeping all day today. The weather has been rainy and miserable, and puppy classes both today and tomorrow are cancelled. I've accepted we won't be any sleep tonight either.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Wow, so I see Pro Plan costs $33-56 for a 15kg/33lbs bag on Amazon. In Australia it's $130. How crazy is the price difference!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> Wow, so I see Pro Plan costs $33-56 for a 15kg/33lbs bag on Amazon. In Australia it's $130. How crazy is the price difference!



The shipping will probably bring it close to the 130 mark


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> Pebs, really?! Great to know Rundle's doing well uncrated at night! Does she ever wake up in the middle of the night for a play, or does she sleep right through?
> It'd be a coincidence if Rundle were to start another round with Sunny. But hoping she'll be okay tonight!
> Sunny has been sleeping all day today. The weather has been rainy and miserable, and puppy classes both today and tomorrow are cancelled. I've accepted we won't be any sleep tonight either.


Hi momo, I find she actually wakes up less since not being crated anymore. We do not allow Rundle on our bed, so the most she does during the night is wake up and move from one spot on the floor to another. Though she seems to have taken a liking to laying between me (at my head of the bed) and the closet. She goes to sleep between 8:30 and 10:30pm. I wake her up for one last pee outing. And then usually a little while after coming in between 11 and 11:30 she will settle down until 6:30-7. I have been sleeping so well since we have let her out, and I realized that she is OK. She doesn't wake up needing to be "comforted." Or to stretch. She seems much happier, and with the better sleep, so am I. 

Honestly, since you have let Sunny sleep outside of the crate before, and he has been fine, I don't think I would start with the crate upstairs. I would first see how he does during the night without a crate. You might find that he surprises you and does really well. Then you don't spend $ on a new crate, and everyone is happier. Worst case, he doesn't do well, makes a mess and THEN you buy a new crate to help the transition. Also, if he is sleeping, I wouldn't make him go outside either. Let sleeping dogs lie. When Rundle wakes up in the morning, she is fine to hold it long enough for: 1. Me to go pee, 2. Put some clothes and shoes on, 3. Put her harness on, 4. Wait for an elevator, 5. Walk to her "go" spot. Honestly it's probably about 10 minutes said and done from the time she wakes up until the time I get her downstairs. Based on my experience (which isn't a lot, but maybe counts for something) Sunny really shouldn't have any problem sleeping through the night, and getting downstairs to go to the bathroom when he wakes up in the morning. 

It seems so far to have just been a one off last night. Rundle did not wake up through the night to go and her poop was completely solid today. Fingers crossed that doesn't change as the day goes on. And I am keeping them crossed for you and Sunny as well that things go well :crossfing


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> Hi momo, I find she actually wakes up less since not being crated anymore. We do not allow Rundle on our bed, so the most she does during the night is wake up and move from one spot on the floor to another. Though she seems to have taken a liking to laying between me (at my head of the bed) and the closet. She goes to sleep between 8:30 and 10:30pm. I wake her up for one last pee outing. And then usually a little while after coming in between 11 and 11:30 she will settle down until 6:30-7. I have been sleeping so well since we have let her out, and I realized that she is OK. She doesn't wake up needing to be "comforted." Or to stretch. She seems much happier, and with the better sleep, so am I.
> 
> Honestly, since you have let Sunny sleep outside of the crate before, and he has been fine, I don't think I would start with the crate upstairs. I would first see how he does during the night without a crate. You might find that he surprises you and does really well. Then you don't spend $ on a new crate, and everyone is happier. Worst case, he doesn't do well, makes a mess and THEN you buy a new crate to help the transition. Also, if he is sleeping, I wouldn't make him go outside either. Let sleeping dogs lie. When Rundle wakes up in the morning, she is fine to hold it long enough for: 1. Me to go pee, 2. Put some clothes and shoes on, 3. Put her harness on, 4. Wait for an elevator, 5. Walk to her "go" spot. Honestly it's probably about 10 minutes said and done from the time she wakes up until the time I get her downstairs. Based on my experience (which isn't a lot, but maybe counts for something) Sunny really shouldn't have any problem sleeping through the night, and getting downstairs to go to the bathroom when he wakes up in the morning.
> 
> It seems so far to have just been a one off last night. Rundle did not wake up through the night to go and her poop was completely solid today. Fingers crossed that doesn't change as the day goes on. And I am keeping them crossed for you and Sunny as well that things go well :crossfing


Do you think Sunny's odd behaviours - waking up 3-5 times throughout then night - is because his tummy is unsettled? It's uncomfortable so it's hard for him to get to sleep? It makes sense - when his poops were firm, he'd sleep through the night, maybe rattle on the crate once, but that was the worst of it. I'm terrified that he's developed a habit of getting up and wanting to play in the middle of the night because of this diarrhea issue that's been ongoing for so long. Last night was exhausting again. Diarrhea at 12 and 2am, then wanting to play at 4am. At 4am, I left the backdoor open so I don't have to keep getting up to open the door. I trust he'll be okay once the cane toads leave early morning. 

At 7:20, I was still asleep, and he was bothered by it I guess, so he jumped up on my bed and settled down beside me. I wouldn't mind him sleeping in be with me, but at the same time, I don't want to make it a habit for when I'd like some space. My parents think it's unhygienic and yell at me for it too. 

Right now it's 8:30am and he's sleeping in his crate by choice. I think it'd be nice to have a crate upstairs, because it seems he doesn't mind it if the door stays open. But it's a good idea not to get a crate and to see how he goes in my room on the floor first! Thanks for that, I didn't even think about it. 

If Sunny has had a big drink, and he hasn't peed for 2 hours and he's asleep, I always wake him up. I don't think he could go all night with a full bladder. If we move upstairs, I'll have to wake him up from a nap downstairs to go up anyway, so we'll take a last potty break. I'm not concerned about him peeing on the floor, I'm concerned about sudden diarrhea because he gets it so frequently. 

I don't know how you manage a puppy living in a condo! You guys are doing amazingly and Rundle seems to have adapted so well. 


Okay, *POOP REPORT*: 
Diarrhea twice in the middle of the night last night. The first was really sloppy, but after I hosed it down, I saw there was a solid chunk of it somewhere in there. The night before, things were looking like they were firming up again. It's gotten worse. The 2nd round of diarrhea, no solids at all, it was a brown watery puddle.  

It could be because I started introducing kibble to chicken and rice too soon, plus I started adding a small amount of Pro Plan. The transition is very, very gradual, I don't want to think PP is the issue... 
I'm going to skip his breakfast so that food is withheld for around 12 hours, then should I go back to chicken and rice for a few more days? I hate doing this to him. Or should I continue with some of his regular kibble mixed in to get things moving? Shouldn't the PP Sensitive Skin and Stomach help? 

It looks like this diarrhea is back and here to stay for at least another week or two.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

You don't think its because you're changing his diet so often? (takes about a week to settle into new diet).

Stop messing with his food. 

Seriously, I can't keep up. Change it once and see how it goes for 5 days.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

This is the first diet change? 

He's been on Royal Canin since I got him, and I wouldn't consider chicken and rice a new diet at all, it's just for when he has bouts of diarrhea. RC to Pro Plan will be the first switch ever, and I'll try to do it over a period of 5-7 days. His diarrhea was particularly bad last night and this morning, so I don't know if I should continue add any kibble at all until it's all cleared up.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> This is the first diet change?
> 
> He's been on Royal Canin since I got him, and I wouldn't consider chicken and rice a new diet at all, it's just for when he has bouts of diarrhea. RC to Pro Plan will be the first switch ever, and I'll try to do it over a period of 5-7 days. His diarrhea was particularly bad last night and this morning, so I don't know if I should continue add any kibble at all until it's all cleared up.


Maybe it's me but it just seems like you do



momo_ said:


> and I think I'll start adding a handle of kibble to see if that gets things moving some more!





momo_ said:


> I'll take away the bone and cheese and see if it helps. I don't want to have to put him on a chicken and rice diet after every soft stool, so for now he'll get the regular kibble, chicken, rice, pumpkin diet. Hopefully things clear up really soon!





momo_ said:


> Sounds like a smart idea! He's back to a chicken and rice diet again, and now we'll introduce each treat individually so I can figure out which is the culprit. I hope it's not the bully sticks.





momo_ said:


> What if I feed only 3 cups (as opposed to the suggested 4 cups) with small treats in between?





momo_ said:


> I'm going out to buy PPP SS today, but I should be introducing it slowly with his regular kibble over the span of 1 week right?


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

My advice: Give the Vet a call.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

I wouldn't consider questioning the quantity of kibble as changing diet. Things were going fine before the first round of diarrhea from bark-eating. So his regular diet is kibble 1 cup 3 times per day, with a bit of chicken, rice, pumpkin. This has worked for him since 9 weeks old. When he gets diarrhea, kibble is taken away, and pumpkin taken away/reduced. 

Bone and cheese are treats. I doubt I'll ever try feeding them again, and the treats he's okay with are taken away for now. I don't think giving a dog a bone is changing diets.

The thing about kibble quantity and treats was more to do with the overall total amount of food he gets. There wouldn't be a change in diet, just a change in ratio (either replace treats with 1 cup kibble, or reduce max. kibble intake with small treats) which shouldn't have an effect on his stools.

Changing to chicken and rice is just a precaution in hopes that it'll firm things up when they get really ugly! 

He will stay on chicken and rice until I see improvements. I'll give the vet a call about it, and also ask about how I should go about switching from RC to PP, whether it be sooner or later.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I agree with Marcus. It seems his stomach hasn't been able to settle down since his first bout with the diareaha. It seems you keep taking him off kibble then on chicken and rice then on kibble. Let his stomach settle on the kibble for a while.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> and also ask about how I should go about switching from RC to PP, whether it be sooner or later.


yeah like I said it was probably just me  Do the switch while he has the runs.

Also I may have mentioned Ben had the runs on and off (maybe a week of solid)... mostly on from the time I got him home until about 6 months old.

He was eating and drinking ok so I wasn't too worried, just grumpy about cleaning up the sloppy soup in the morning.

When we decided to bring him into the bedroom. He still had the runs. But to our surprise, he held on all night... after that it kinda went away after adjusting his food amounts.

It'll be interesting to hear what the vet said


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Marcus said:


> Do the switch while he has the runs.



That is my opinion too


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Just got off the phone with the vet. 

She suggests a 24-hour fast, then chicken and rice for 4-5 days. Good god, I tried to skip his breakfast in an attempt to do a 12-hour fast but gave in after 11am. He was getting destructive for the first time! 
I don't know how he'll go with no food until tomorrow morning. I don't know how *I* will go trying not to give him food. He's such a piggy. 

After all that, she says I can begin introducing PP without RC. I asked her if I could try to do the switch to PP while he's got the runs, and she said no. Sigh. I hate the chicken and rice diet so much. He's a twig. 

However if there are no improvements after chicken and rice, I have to bring in a stool sample to test for 15 different bacterias/infections.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> Good god, I tried to skip his breakfast in an attempt to do a 12-hour fast but gave in after 11am.


hahaha Don't cave this time
Don't worry he will get lethargic and sleep.
























eventually


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> Just got off the phone with the vet.
> 
> She suggests a 24-hour fast, then chicken and rice for 4-5 days.


Oh man that is rough. I feel bad for you and Sunny. This is going to be a tough week for the two of you


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> Do you think Sunny's odd behaviours - waking up 3-5 times throughout then night - is because his tummy is unsettled?
> 
> At 7:20, I was still asleep, and he was bothered by it I guess, so he jumped up on my bed and settled down beside me. I wouldn't mind him sleeping in be with me, but at the same time, I don't want to make it a habit for when I'd like some space. My parents think it's unhygienic and yell at me for it too.
> 
> ...


I definitely think he is waking up because of the diarrhea right now. Rundle did too when she had it. But, he may just not be a fan of sleeping in the crate either. Some dogs find it to be like their own little haven... others like Rundle, prefer more open spaces. Sunny sounds like he might be similar to Rundle. Rundle sometimes goes into her crate to chew, play or lay. But, 99.9 sleeps happen outside the crate when the door is open. 
Weird that your parents think it is unhygienic... we don't allow Rundle in the bed with us, but mainly for space/romance reasons. Since we have never allowed her on the bed, she does not try to get into bed with us at night, which is perfect. She gets lots of cuddles on the floor during the day though  
At Sunny's age I still don't think you should be waking him from his naps regardless of how much he's drank. He'll let you know if he's got to go, or you can take him out when he wakes up. But, that's just my 2 cents. Except for last potty break before bed. I get that.


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

Why do you hate chicken and rice or are you eating it too!! (like the peanut butter!) It is actually very nutritious and probably tastes heaps better than the kibble. Do EXACTLY what your vet says and don't keep adding extra stuff the minute you get a solid poop. You are making this much harder than it needs to be. Your number one priority needs to be getting shot of the diarrhea.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> I definitely think he is waking up because of the diarrhea right now. Rundle did too when she had it. But, he may just not be a fan of sleeping in the crate either. Some dogs find it to be like their own little haven... others like Rundle, prefer more open spaces. Sunny sounds like he might be similar to Rundle. Rundle sometimes goes into her crate to chew, play or lay. But, 99.9 sleeps happen outside the crate when the door is open.
> Weird that your parents think it is unhygienic... we don't allow Rundle in the bed with us, but mainly for space/romance reasons. Since we have never allowed her on the bed, she does not try to get into bed with us at night, which is perfect. She gets lots of cuddles on the floor during the day though
> At Sunny's age I still don't think you should be waking him from his naps regardless of how much he's drank. He'll let you know if he's got to go, or you can take him out when he wakes up. But, that's just my 2 cents. Except for last potty break before bed. I get that.


Sounds just like Sunny. He'll go in there to chew his toys or have a 10-minute nap, but he'd rather just lay on the cold, hard floor. 
Oh no, I never wake him up for a potty break unless it's the last potty break before bed! Haha
It's gonna be another rough week, yes...


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Harleysmum said:


> Why do you hate chicken and rice or are you eating it too!! (like the peanut butter!) It is actually very nutritious and probably tastes heaps better than the kibble. Do EXACTLY what your vet says and don't keep adding extra stuff the minute you get a solid poop. You are making this much harder than it needs to be. Your number one priority needs to be getting shot of the diarrhea.


Hahaha! I've just noticed that he loses quite a lot of weight and looks very thin whenever we're on the chicken and rice diet. It's surely not as nutritious as his kibble, right? 

I will be doing exactly what the vet says. After the 5 days of chicken and rice and if his stools are improving, I'll be adding Pro Plan little by little as she said. She didn't mention how slowly to introduce it, she just said "give him the diet you want him on", which might mean straight to PP without chicken and rice but that sounds like we're asking for another round of diarrhea. 

21 hours of the fast left and counting...


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

Well the chicken you are giving him is human grade so will be an improvement on the beaks and feathers and rubbish in the kibble. But don't get me started LOL


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Controversial!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> Hahaha! I've just noticed that he loses quite a lot of weight


Take a look at Weight lifters diets... Boiled chicken



Harleysmum said:


> so will be an improvement on the beaks and feathers and rubbish in the kibble. But don't get me started LOL


Was thinking the same thing


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Gosh Darn raw feeders, the Vegans of the dog world!!!!!!!! lol


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Chritty said:


> Gosh Darn raw feeders, the Vegans of the dog world!!!!!!!! lol



Plenty of room on our bandwagon

Cleaner teeth, better coat blah blah blah


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Give a dog a bone Marcus!! Haha


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Don't tell at me, but I gave him some chicken broth/water to drink and made chicken broth/water ice cubes as suggested by the breeder. 
This is fine right?!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

tell*

I also will not be having dinner or breakfast. If he doesn't eat, I won't either. I can't stand his sad face. 15 hours to go!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> This is fine right?!



Sigh. I think you know the answer to that




momo_ said:


> tell*
> 
> I also will not be having dinner or breakfast. If he doesn't eat, I won't either. I can't stand his sad face. 15 hours to go!


Why would you do that? Do you have the runs as well?




momo_ said:


> as suggested by the breeder.



Is the breeder a qualified vet? Are they someone you should listen to over a qualified vet?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

I could give the vet a call and ask, and I'm 75% sure she'd think it's okay. It's just plain water mixed with boiled water that's had chicken in it. It at least helped him to drink more so he stays hydrated! 

And what if I did have the runs...


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

momo_ said:


> tell*
> 
> I also will not be having dinner or breakfast. If he doesn't eat, I won't either. I can't stand his sad face. 15 hours to go!



I think as a sign of solidarity that I will not eat either. Starting now until I have my breakfast at 6.30am!!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

2.5 hours. I can't believe we've managed to do this. He's home alone with his grandma while I'm at a dentist appointment. Hoping she won't give in before 11. 

Last night he slept from 10:30-5:40 without asking to come out of the crate. No diarrhea since 8:30am yesterday. Yes!!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> 2.5 hours. I can't believe we've managed to do this. He's home alone with his grandma while I'm at a dentist appointment. Hoping she won't give in before 11.
> 
> Last night he slept from 10:30-5:40 without asking to come out of the crate. No diarrhea since 8:30am yesterday. Yes!!


Once again we cross our fingers for you


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

29 hours still last poop. I'm now playing the waiting game...


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

*POOP UPDATE:*

We have a poop! It happened at the dog park. I anxiously walked towards it and, to my relief, it was not diarrhea. It was nice and solid. The other dog owners must've thought I was insane praising him with such enthusiasm! 


yayayayayayayyayayayayayay so happy


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