# It just doesn't feel right...



## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

If it doesn't feel right, then it probably isn't. I prefer to establish the bond first, training is not such a big deal. Constant corrections might be required in the first days when puppy feels like exploring areas she shouldn't, but I did them in a positive manner - giving her a toy to distract her attention and praising her for this.


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## bwoz (Jul 12, 2007)

I think that you need to follow your instincts, and if you are not comfortable with something maybe it's time to move on. I don't think one way over another is neccessarily better or worse, just that it should meet the dog's personality. As a pup, I think Bailey would benefit from fun, gentle training. We did positive reinforcement training at a facility in Manchester Ct, and Banner loved it. Bottom line, you should also feel good and have fun with the training. Good luck to you, Bailey is a cutie.


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## Kand3 (Nov 3, 2008)

bwoz said:


> I think that you need to follow your instincts, and if you are not comfortable with something maybe it's time to move on. I don't think one way over another is neccessarily better or worse, just that it should meet the dog's personality. As a pup, I think Bailey would benefit from fun, gentle training. We did positive reinforcement training at a facility in Manchester Ct, and Banner loved it. Bottom line, you should also feel good and have fun with the training. Good luck to you, Bailey is a cutie.


Did you go to TailsUWin?? It's a little bit of a trek for us, but I've heard good things about it.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I agree with the above posters. Your gut is telling you something, listen. Goldens are more gentle tempered (usually) than other dogs. Too strong or too early corrections could break your dog's spirit and maim her trust in you. 
Playing, housebreaking and loving along with postive training is my idea for training a pup younger than 4 months.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Listen to your instincts. It is critical that you and your puppy have a positive experience, even just for early manners training. I am always concerned with a trainer who does not consider the individual dog. I have no problems with correcting a puppy, but it is _immediately _followed by praise when she stops the unwanted behavior and you show her the right thing to do. If you are not enjoying it, she certainly isn't. Training should be fun for you and the dog.


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## bwoz (Jul 12, 2007)

Kand3 said:


> Did you go to TailsUWin?? It's a little bit of a trek for us, but I've heard good things about it.


Yes, and they are all positive reinforcement. It was fun. I'm not sure where you are, but they have a satellite center in Simsbury, www.tailsuwin.com/tails2 Maybe that's closer for you? The owners of that facility own Banners daddy. I've always wanted to check them out but it's a little too far for me.


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## Kand3 (Nov 3, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Listen to your instincts. It is critical that you and your puppy have a positive experience, even just for early manners training. I am always concerned with a trainer who does not consider the individual dog. I have no problems with correcting a puppy, but it is _immediately _followed by praise when she stops the unwanted behavior and you show her the right thing to do. If you are not enjoying it, she certainly isn't. Training should be fun for you and the dog.


I guess that's part of my problem with this method...it's NOT immediately followed by praise. Whereas when she first came home and we were kind of "winging it", that's more what we were doing (redirecting, praising, etc). Now, I feel like the only time we can praise her is when she's half asleep! Ok, I'm exaggerating, but you get the idea...

Also, you had the same thought I did about not considering the individual dog. She tried to say our pup was definitely "dominant", which just doesn't seem right. Aren't all pups going to do things like test boundaries, nip, and be a little stubborn until they figure it all out? I don't think this makes them dominant, just puppies! And this method I can see as being beneficial when correcting unwanted behaviors in older dogs, etc. however it just seems off to me as a first step in puppy training...especially of a golden retriever. 

Sorry...venting again...I just feel so confused and want to do the right thing!


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## Kand3 (Nov 3, 2008)

bwoz said:


> Yes, and they are all positive reinforcement. It was fun. I'm not sure where you are, but they have a satellite center in Simsbury, www.tailsuwin.com/tails2 Maybe that's closer for you? The owners of that facility own Banners daddy. I've always wanted to check them out but it's a little too far for me.


Thanks...actually Simsbury is a little bit closer (well..depending on *where* in Simsbury!).  I sent them an email to see when their next puppy kindergarten starts so we'll see! Thanks again!


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## Faith's mommy (Feb 26, 2007)

i've got nothing to add on the training method, but i did want to pop in and give a recommendation on a place NOT to go - CT K-9 in New Britain. i'm not sure if they offer puppy classes or not, but i took Faith there for Basic 1 and they require a choke collar for the training class. i don't think the trainers there realize that not everyone is raising GSD's for police work - their methods are all about corrections.

we've also gone to Country Dog in Southington. i liked them much better. it was almost all verbal corrections, with some physical corrections, but nothing that i would think of as harsh. 

Faith did MUCH better at their training classes - simply because i was more comfortable and actually learned from them vs being worried about the choke collar being placed correctly, etc, etc.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Kand3 said:


> I guess that's part of my problem with this method...it's NOT immediately followed by praise. Whereas when she first came home and we were kind of "winging it", that's more what we were doing (redirecting, praising, etc). Now, I feel like the only time we can praise her is when she's half asleep! Ok, I'm exaggerating, but you get the idea...
> 
> Also, you had the same thought I did about not considering the individual dog. She tried to say our pup was definitely "dominant", which just doesn't seem right. Aren't all pups going to do things like test boundaries, nip, and be a little stubborn until they figure it all out? I don't think this makes them dominant, just puppies! And this method I can see as being beneficial when correcting unwanted behaviors in older dogs, etc. however it just seems off to me as a first step in puppy training...especially of a golden retriever.
> 
> Sorry...venting again...I just feel so confused and want to do the right thing!


 
You are correct on every level. (And I promise NOT to make this tread about the trainer whose methods were being subscribed too. :no


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

Remember that Cesar is dealing almost entirely with aggressive dogs. That's exactly the opposite of most Golden puppies.

And what he says and what he does are really two different things. He talks very tough--pack order, alpha dog, this and that. But watch his actions. He gets the owners to establish clear boundaries and give the dog some exercise. And he projects a "calm assertive" energy around the dog.

In practice, it's not really hugely different than what Victoria Stillwell does. 

While I'm not a big fan, I did channel Cesar a little in the past couple of days, trying to be a little quieter and calmer around Tessie and it did help. 

But it sounds like you've got the wrong trainer for Bailey, and being too pushy at this stage can cause more harm than good. 

allen


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I agree with Milan's "calm, assertive energy" as Allen said, but puppies don't need constant correction. They need constant _redirection_, like Laura said.

How far are you from Hamden? Comet and I did the puppy class at Paws 'N Effect  and had a blast. Everything was food, praise, and redirection. They were super nice there, and that training track goes right to CGC and competition obedience, so they phase out the food rewards as you get higher and higher. 

The puppy class did basic manners, grooming skills, leash work, a socialization break, and even introduced them to a different agility element every session (like getting on a low platform). They also do obedience, rally, and agility there. The last day we did a puppy olympics (at which Comet got several gold medals, of course).

I'm fairly cynical about food-based training, and I'm usually too much of a know-it-all to have fun at things like that, but we really did have a great time and we both learned a lot. I noticed the people who did really well in that class were the ones who listened most carefully to the instructor, so she seemed darned good to me.

Gus and I went to a couple of "drop-ins" to practice for his CGC, mostly because I wanted to start agility work with him and I wanted him to see the place and get used to it. Hhe died suddenly from lymphoma a few months later, so we never got to do the agility class, but that CGC class was great too.


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## Kand3 (Nov 3, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> You are correct on every level. (And I promise NOT to make this tread about the trainer whose methods were being subscribed too. :no


Lol...that's why I was a little hesistant to post all this. I know people have strong feelings on these methods! 

Is it ok to mix methods or does that just confuse the dog? I have three kids and can guarantee if I gave them 100% praise *OR* correction they'd be a mess. I feel like you need both, but don't know if I'm being too "human" about it, if that makes sense. It just seems like (with parenting anyway) you look at all the options and use your instincts to pick and choose what works for you and your child/dog. Am I way off here?


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## Kand3 (Nov 3, 2008)

avincent52 said:


> Remember that Cesar is dealing almost entirely with aggressive dogs. That's exactly the opposite of most Golden puppies.
> 
> And what he says and what he does are really two different things. He talks very tough--pack order, alpha dog, this and that. But watch his actions. He gets the owners to establish clear boundaries and give the dog some exercise. And he projects a "calm assertive" energy around the dog.
> 
> ...


That is basically what I am thinking. While I think there are good things to take from it, I don't know that it's the best method (using it 100%) for a golden retriever puppy. I just said in another post that I think you almost need to pick and choose what works for you, and then hope you don't confuse the heck out of the dog! Lol!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Cesar Milan's methods are for dogs with problems, aggressive dogs, neurotic dogs, etc. IMO they should not be used them to train/work with your puppy or any average pet dog. 

Your gut is right, positive methods will work just fine for your puppy. If it were me, I would find another trainer. If this is the trainer for the class you will go to, I would find another training center.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Yeah, Bailey is simply too young for constant correction. That doesn't mean you should let her jump up on you or mouth your hands, but depending on what's meant by "correction," it may be counterproductive. It's really important that negative behaviors are addressed with total consistency, but loud voices, scruff shakes, or physical contact (like poking in the ribs) are too much for Golden puppies.

Bailey's old enough for pre-training, like non-coercive practice in sitting, lying down, coming, staying, even retrieving. She's old enough to be working on her manners too, but the approach should be to prioritize redirecting bad impulses, not on providing negative feedback for them.


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

Kand3 said:


> That is basically what I am thinking. While I think there are good things to take from it, I don't know that it's the best method (using it 100%) for a golden retriever puppy. I just said in another post that I think you almost need to pick and choose what works for you, and then hope you don't confuse the heck out of the dog! Lol!


I agree completely. And I think your analogy with parenting is right on. 

You also have to see how the dog is reacting. Tessie was viewing me a little too much as a playmate (and a chewie toy) so I tried to be a little calmer with her and a little more direct in what I wanted her to do and not do and it worked so far. 

Next week it may be different. I wasn't taking a page from Cesar's "book" so much as an appropriate phrase.

FWIW, I haven't "corrected" Tessie once in two weeks. Unless you consider "no bite" and sticking a kong in her mouth a correction. 

As Tippy suggested, I tell her "no" and then just give her something appropriate to do with her energy. 

As for food rewards, I've tried to minimize them (except for training "come" where you want no ambiguity, and "trade" where you need to keep the dog from running away from you) and showered her with praise instead. 

allen

PS I agree with Tippy about starting simple training. Tessie loves to fetch and it gives me something to praise and a way to tucker her out (and a tired puppy is a good puppy.) And she's almost a compulsive sitter, which again gives me a way to redirect her from an unwanted behavior (plopping down in the middle of a walk, or just jumping up) into something she knows she'll get praise (and sometimes treats) for. 

That said, Tessie is very much a non-dominant pup. She's very much focused on her people, so we rarely have to do much to get her to do something or stop something. Your mileage may vary.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

For a lot of things with puppies, it's redirection for sure - chewing on a shoe - trade it for a kong, sniffing the carpet - get their attention and get them out the door to pee. 

With training at that age it's a lot of positive stuff - have lots of treats ready and bribe her as needed to get her started. You have to make her 'want to' do things for you - even if it means using food as a reward. Most things should be games and fun for both parties. Like a child, redirect and remove from the situation as needed. 

Just because someone is a 'trainer' doesn't mean they are all right or all wrong in their processes. There isn't just one way to do things, and if it feels wrong then go with it.

Lana


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## Kand3 (Nov 3, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I agree with Milan's "calm, assertive energy" as Allen said, but puppies don't need constant correction. They need constant _redirection_, like Laura said.
> 
> How far are you from Hamden? Comet and I did the puppy class at Paws 'N Effect  and had a blast. Everything was food, praise, and redirection. They were super nice there, and that training track goes right to CGC and competition obedience, so they phase out the food rewards as you get higher and higher.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advice and recommendation. I just looked and it would take a little over an hour each way to get to Hamden...bummer! But I am pretty sure we are going to be looking for an alternative so we will definitely keep it in mind. Thanks again!


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Cesar Milan states in his own book, "Cesar's Way", "I don't call what I do training anymore. There are plenty of great trainers out there - people who can teach your dog to respond to such commands as sit, stay, come and heel. That's not what I do. I do heavy-duty rehab. I deal with dog psychology; trying to connect with the dog's mind and natural instincts to help correct unwanted behavior. I don't use words or commands. I use energy and touch. When I come to a client's house, the owner usually thinks the problem lies with the dog. I always have in the back of my mind that the issue is most likely with the owner. I often tell my clients, I rehabilitate dogs, but I train people."

I have found his books and television show to be very interesting. Many of his ideas resonate with me and have broadened my perspective; however, I do think you have to adapt what you learn from books, classes, or one on one training to your own situation. 

My Marty was placed in intermediate obedience when he was seven months old. He was the only puppy in the class. At the training center we attended, you usually stay at intermediate for at least two sessions until you are ready for advanced. Well Marty was new to intermediate and immediately I felt he didn't belong there. He may have known all the commands to be placed at that level, but he was still a goofy puppy. All the other dogs were older than him. Anyway, we completed the class. Marty was the one who was laughed at the entire session, and I never felt close to any of the people in that class. It just wasn't a good fit.

I think you are right - - - you already know what you are going to do : )


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I like Cesar but the important thing to remember is that he is dealing with adult, spoiled dogs that have uninformed owners.

That is NOT a Golden puppy. Imagine that your puppy is a human toddler and treat him the same way you'd treat a human baby. You wouldn't be constantly negative with a people baby because it doesn't build confidence, it doesn't build problem solving skills, it doesn't TEACH.

Your instincts are right. Just as you redirect a toddler, you do so with a puppy. Over and over and over again. :bowl: But eventually they get it and move on to something else.

Above all else you want to have a Golden who is confident, understands boundaries, is devoted and loving. That takes a lot of 'good girls'.

You don't want your Golden to meet other goldens and say "Hello, my name is no-no bad dog, what's yours?" :wavey:


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

A well-bred puppy like Bailey should become a joyful learner. Use a clicker and postive methods- lots of praise and fun with training so that she looks forward to working with you. Tally gets so many compliments on his attentiveness; he watches me, has an easy times mastering new concepts, and works with a bright, happy demeanor. This is 100 percent from his early experiences being positive and confidence -building. Your puppy will want praise and harmony and treats in a motivating way, but too much rough stuff with a golden shuts them down. Finn was trained to heel with the collar pop method v Tally&Tango with hand targeting. Finn heels, but he doesnt love it or radiate the pleasure at working with a human the other two do. He is very subdued by formal obedience, which makes me sad. I wish FInn had learned with wholly positive methods.


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## aussieresc (Dec 30, 2008)

What is this trainer's background? If she is connected to a facility, what is their training philosophy?


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## Kand3 (Nov 3, 2008)

*Update*

Thanks everyone for your responses!  We decided we are going to try something different with Bailey's training. I notified the trainer today and her response wasn't great. I was basically "guaranteed that I would raise a dog that is stubborn and mouthy" and told that "my kind of issues would not get better with treat/praise training despite the claims." In the initial meeting we were told Bailey was dominant, very mouthy, that there was no way she was left with her mother the entire time, etc. I didn't realize we had so many issues with our 12 week old pup...who knew!?! :doh: 

I was also told I should come observe a class rather than just take "internet based suggestions"...maybe she's been reading my posts! 

Anyway, this is all very overwhelming for first time puppy owners so hopefully we are making the right choices! Thanks again everyone!


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

From the sounds of her attitude with her response I wouldn't want her around me let alone my pup!

I hope you find a positive response trainer. In the meantime, reward the behavior you like and want to encourage,and just ignor the behavior you don't want. Just turn or walk away or stop playing. As soon as puppy does the 'right' thing praise and treat.


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