# Harborview Goldens - Retinal Folds?



## aileenzw (Aug 10, 2011)

We were very close to sending in a reservation for one of Harborview's litters as I saw that they came highly recommended from some other threads in the forum. However, I did look at the dam who is Harborview's Conspiracy of One 'Alibi' and she has retinal folds (edited)! Is this disease hereditary? If so, I would no longer consider getting a puppy from them. (More importantly, why was she bred then? :doh

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Any thoughts?

Edit: Okay I changed it. Sorry for the confusion. =\


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

That is a breeder option, which means that she did pass the examination. It is just a problem we don't know much about, but there doesn't seem to be any clear evidence that it is genetic. So the recommendation is to breed that dog with caution and to another dog that does not have the same defect. 

I would point out, that the eye exam is out of date, so request an updated exam that has been done within a year. 

Also the OFA website does not list a heart exam. Request a hard copy of a heart exam that has been done by a board certified cardiologists. 

If they can not produce the last two documents, I would not adopt a puppy from them. Be sure the sire does not have the same condition that the dam does. Also be sure the sire has his clearances, either on the OFA website or in hard copy form. 

Good Luck!


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I found this information on vmdb...

Retinal Dysplasia-Folds:

*Retinal folds rarely cause vision problems for the individual dog.* *They represent small blind spots which are probably not even noticed by the dog.* However, large areas of dysplasia (geographic dysplasia) may lead to large deficits in the visual field and dogs with retinal detachments are completely blind. There have been many questions recently about the certifiability of dogs with retinal folds. *Retinal folds may be seen in many breeds and still pass a CERF examination and receive a CERF number. This is due to the fact that the condition is thought either not to be hereditary in the particular breed or has never been shown to be connected to serious (blinding) forms of dysplasia.* In some breeds, particularly Labrador Retrievers, Samoyeds, and English Springer Spaniels, individuals with retinal folds are NOT given a CERF number. Since retinal dysplasia is common in these breeds and dogs and bitches with retinal folds can have puppies with blindness and/or skeletal problems the gene should not be perpetuated. In all breeds, individuals with geographic and retinal detachment forms of retinal dysplasia are NOT certifiable.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Retinal FOLDS are an OFA Breeder's Option and NOT a CERF fail.
Retinal DYSPLASIA IS a CERF Fail and dogs with retinal dysplasia should not be bred.
It appears that this dog has retinal FOLDS, NOT dysplasia, evidenced by the fact it is listed as a breeder's option, not "abnormal." 
Retinal folds are not considered a problem in goldens; they are primarily congenital (not genetic).
I would be more concerned that the CERF is out of date and no heart clearance is listed.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

I think your concern is valid. I'd definitely request the up-to-date CERF and cardiac clearances.


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## aileenzw (Aug 10, 2011)

Thank you for the clarifications. I did email Jennifer at Harborview back inquiring about the two updated clearances as well as eye/heart for the sire as well. Hopefully she does have them. Will keep y'all posted!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

aileenzw said:


> We were very close to sending in a reservation for one of Harborview's litters as I saw that they came highly recommended from some other threads in the forum. However, I did look at the dam who is Harborview's Conspiracy of One 'Alibi' and she has retinal dysplasia! Is this disease hereditary? If so, I would no longer consider getting a puppy from them. (More importantly, why was she bred then? :doh
> 
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> 
> Any thoughts?


 
Retinal folds are a "Breeder's Option". They are certifiable as they are not believed to be hereditary.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I know Jennifer and her dogs are her #1 priority. CERF eye exams and heart clearances are not required to be sent in to the OFA database. Call or email her, I'm sure she'll be happy to provide any documents you ask to see.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

I feel that I need to address this issue as the person has chosen to post one of my dog's information-well actually, misinformation on the forum.

Retinal folds does clear CERF and is and has been a breeder's option in GOLDEN RETRIEVERS for many years. It is not CERFable in many other breeds where there has been shown to be a genetic component(passed along to offspring) or if it causes major vision impairment for the dogs. Because this has not been the case in goldens, it remains a breeder's option. If it was not something that could clear CERF the dog would not have a CERF number. 

There are 3 copies with every CERF evaluation form. One goes to the owner, the 2nd goes to the Dr doing the exam and the 3rd is sent into CERF. The Dr's at CERF review information and trends on a yearly baseis and make decisions as to whether something will continue to be aceptable to CERF or not. There are many other things that are also listed as a breeder's option because they are either not genetic or do not cause a problem with the dog.

Alibi has a current eye exam that was just done. She was in Colorado with a handler being shown when many of our dogs were re-done and when her CERF expired back in January. Alibi came home in April.

As a breeder, this type of situation has come up many times on the forum and it has been stated numerous times in numerous threads that if you have a question about an individual dog or why a breeding was done, that you should ASK THE BREEDER!!!!!! It seems that in some cases, a little information can be a dangerous thing when people do not understand what they are looking at and especially if misinformation is posted.

All of our dogs who are involved in our breeding program have ALL of their clearances and this was already told to the person who had posted this question to the list. She could have quite simply chosen to email me about questions that she had and ask for the clearance information as it is posted to do so on my website. Also, for the record, this person has not been approved for one of our puppies and had sent one email requesting information. A puppy questionnaire had not even been submitted. 

Jennifer Craig
Harborview Goldens


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Out of three CERFs and one appointment with an ophthalmologist, Selli was diagnosed with retinal folds twice (one Cerf and the appointment). At the other two CERFs, the first and the last, the issue was considered to be scar tissue. In Goldens it is not considered to be an inherited problem.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have also been told by my ophthalmologist that some dogs when young will have folds, but they disappear. And my understanding is the reason retinal folds clear is because they do not lead to blindness in goldens. And to clarify, the reason many things clear CERF in different breeds, IS NOT because it is not inherited, but because it is thought that it does not cause a problem in that breed. An example is distichia, a breeder's option. Is there anyone out there that doesn't think it is inherited? IMO, of course it is. However, according to the ophthalmologist I go to it is not a problem in goldens. It's usually a few hairs and requires no intervention... Is it an issue in cockers? You betcha! Some breeds need intervention because it causes them great pain and discomfort. I have a bitch with PPM's, breeders option. She CERF's. I have her daughter who showed PPM's at 8 months but at 18 months, they weren't visible.... I'm thinking inherited, but not a problem (hers are iris to iris). Other breeds, it is not CERFable due to the location.

And not to offend the OP. But putting a known kennel name out there like you did was just not cool. You should have contacted the breeder first. You could've put the question about retinal dysplasia/folds out there without naming the breeder. And it turns out you put out misinformation....


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Perhaps a moderator of the forum would be kind enough to edit the title of this thread, as it does indicate something that is not true. The issue at hand is retinal folds, not retinal dysplasia (related issues, but surely not equals), but the OP clearly did not know that. 

Let's try not to be too over the top harsh on someone who came here looking for opinions/information. We encourage people to do it all the time... because as much as we also encourage them to ask questions of the breeder, we all know that many less than reputable breeders do a great job of talking the talk and swindling those who don't know all the signs to look for. Now, Harborview is NOT one of those breeders from everything I know and have heard of them... so please don't take that the wrong way... but we all know they are out there. And so we tell people to ask the breeder while at the same time offering our assistance to weed out the reputable breeders from the scammers. 

The OP came here because of that offer and asked for information. She was given sound information from a few knowledgable members and the breeder came here to be sure that all correct information was disclosed. I am certain that the moderators will respond to a reasonable request to alter the title of this thread so that misinformation is not implied, and the OP can edit their post to reflect the correct "diagnosis" and/or add a disclaimer as he or she sees fit. At that point, truly, there is no harm done. Jennifer, I do hope that you can see through your hurt (and I am sure that seeing the title of this thread did truly hurt you) to the fact that this person is trying to educate themselves as a buyer, is doing their homework and clearly cares enough about this breed and their future dog to make sure they only support reputable breeders who are working to preserve this breed that we all love. And isn't that exactly the type of buyer most breeders are hoping for (even if they misspeak or misstep along the way)?

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Ok so temporarily you made me feel bad for what I wrote. But where I am coming from is the lynch mob mentality that when a dog that was purchased ends up with HD or pick your disease, and many people jump on it and tell the person to go on OFA, post the horrible results.... I have had 2 dogs with major issues that I purchased and it was never on my mind to expose them as less than perfect breeders. I still stand by my opinion that the OP could've posed a question about breeders option/retinal folds/dysplasia without naming the breeder specifically... And I will still say, that bad things happen to good breeders and when people want to bad mouth them on a public forum, it gets MY hackles up.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

hvgoldens4 said:


> I feel that I need to address this issue as the person has chosen to post one of my dog's information-well actually, misinformation on the forum.
> 
> Retinal folds does clear CERF and is and has been a breeder's option in GOLDEN RETRIEVERS for many years. It is not CERFable in many other breeds where there has been shown to be a genetic component(passed along to offspring) or if it causes major vision impairment for the dogs. Because this has not been the case in goldens, it remains a breeder's option. If it was not something that could clear CERF the dog would not have a CERF number.
> 
> ...


You are correct, potential buyers should ask the breeder for certifications. But I'm sure you are aware there are breeders other than yourself who will and do outright lie to potential buyers and tell them certifications are good when they are not. So it's not wrong from someone to ask an outside party what a notation on a certification means. It's actually smart, and reputable breeders, such as yourself, shouldn't be offended if someone is asking questions and educating themselves about clearances and what they mean.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> ...
> And not to offend the OP. But putting a known kennel name out there like you did was just not cool. You should have contacted the breeder first. You could've put the question about retinal dysplasia/folds out there without naming the breeder. And it turns out you put out misinformation....


 
Umm, we encourage people to come ask about specific breeders so they can get the information they need before making a purchase. Just because this one happens to be reputable shouldn't make it wrong to ask about the kennel by name - in fact it's an opportunity for people who know to say "this is a good breeder."


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I just wanted to point out that OFA does in fact say Retinal Displaysia-Folds. Someone who does not know what that is, and does not know that "Folds" makes a difference, is doing the right thing asking people who do. I'm sure there was no intent to mis-lead or be inaccurate in the original post. I don't think there was any ill intent in naming the breeder, and OFA is public access so anyone can see the certification and the breeder/kennel name.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

mylissyk said:


> You are correct, potential buyers should ask the breeder for certifications. But I'm sure you are aware there are breeders other than yourself who will and do outright lie to potential buyers and tell them certifications are good when they are not. So it's not wrong from someone to ask an outside party what a notation on a certification means. It's actually smart, and reputable breeders, such as yourself, shouldn't be offended if someone is asking questions and educating themselves about clearances and what they mean.


As other people have posted, the question could have been asked without posting the dog's name and my kennel name. She could have posted-I am looking at a breeder that has a litter but the mom has retinal folds(the correct term and not retinal dysplasia which is a world apart) Can anyone help me here?? Instead she posted wrong information and asked why ever was the breeding done??

I have to have trust in where I place my puppies. I tell people that I will always be there to answer questions, deal with problems, and whatever comes up. I want my puppy buyers to come to me with questions and problems because that is the only way I know what is going on in my breeding program. Most of our dogs are family companions-I may keep a puppy or another puppy may go to a "show home" but the bulk are people's companions. She was also obviously aware of my reputation to some degree because she stated that in her post while also stating misinformation about the dog.

She sent me ONE email and posted this on the forum. I sent her an email with basic information stating who the parents were and directing her to Alibi's page on my website. I also told her that the dogs have all four clearances and gave her more information about how I do things with our puppies. She had to go to Alibi's page on my website to get her registered name. Harborview Goldens presents Alibi It says on my website on Alibi's page-EYE AND HEART INFO PROVIDED UPON REQUEST. All she had to do was email me and I would have gladly provided all copies of any clearances that were requested and answered any questions. Instead, she chose not to contact me -she chose instead to post wrong information and make a judgement about me and the breeding on the forum.

She also stated that she was ready to send a deposit but I had not approved her as a home. My puppies go to approved homes only and she had not completed a questionnaire or given me any references so we were a long way off from where she was stating we were. 

Unfortunately, there is mob mentality and some of the people on the forum are actually looking for problems with breeders but these are the same breeders that they expect to answer their questions that are posed to the forum and the same breeders they are hoping to get a puppy from. You can't have it both way, folks! You can't bash us and treat us as evil breeders and then in the next breath...."let's hope some of the breeders on the forum will weigh in on this question."

Yes, there are breeders that don't give correct information about their dogs but those breeders aren't recommended by people on the forum and in her own post, she had said she had contacted me because of recommendations on the forum.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Ok so temporarily you made me feel bad for what I wrote. But where I am coming from is the lynch mob mentality that when a dog that was purchased ends up with HD or pick your disease, and many people jump on it and tell the person to go on OFA, post the horrible results.... I have had 2 dogs with major issues that I purchased and it was never on my mind to expose them as less than perfect breeders. I still stand by my opinion that the OP could've posed a question about breeders option/retinal folds/dysplasia without naming the breeder specifically... And I will still say, that bad things happen to good breeders and when people want to bad mouth them on a public forum, it gets MY hackles up.


I apologize... it really wasn't my intention to make you feel bad about anything, and my post (though following yours) was just as much directed to Jennifer as it was to you and was, more than anything, an attempt to keep the pile on from coming and making people feel uncomfortable asking questions that will lead them to reputable breeders such as HVG. 

I've said this before in another thread but can't remember if I was "talking" with you (so to speak, lol) so forgive me if I'm repeating myself: though the intention of some posters who would encourage the owner of a dysplastic dog to publish the results may be less than stellar... many of us believe that all results-- good, bad and ugly -- should be reported to the appropriate databases if they are to perform the function for which they are intended. How can we possibly hope to minimize and/or eradicate the genetic diseases that plague goldens (or any other breed) if well-intentioned owners sit on failing results because they are afraid someone will be mad at them? I'm going to try not to take this too off topic, but my point is there are various motives... it's not always a lynch mob. 

The OP could have chosen to word things differently, but as someone pointed out, the CERF diagnosis itself reads Retinal Dysplasia - Folds. To one who doesn't know much about it the word dysplasia is sure to stand out. I don't believe the intent was to be malicious. And correct information was posted immediately following the OP... it's not as though there's pages of people bashing the breeder and then finally true information buried on page 37. It was an unfortunate misunderstanding... but I really think (just my 2 cents) that's all it was. Has Jennifer (or any one for that matter) sent a request to any of the moderators to edit the title? I'd do it myself, but feel like it should probably come from one of the involved parties (OP or breeder) if it's going to be taken seriously.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

hvgoldens4 said:


> As other people have posted, the question could have been asked without posting the dog's name and my kennel name. She could have posted-I am looking at a breeder that has a litter but the mom has retinal folds(the correct term and not retinal dysplasia which is a world apart) Can anyone help me here?? Instead she posted wrong information and asked why ever was the breeding done??
> 
> I have to have trust in where I place my puppies. I tell people that I will always be there to answer questions, deal with problems, and whatever comes up. I want my puppy buyers to come to me with questions and problems because that is the only way I know what is going on in my breeding program. Most of our dogs are family companions-I may keep a puppy or another puppy may go to a "show home" but the bulk are people's companions. She was also obviously aware of my reputation to some degree because she stated that in her post while also stating misinformation about the dog.
> 
> ...


But the kennel name and the report are available to the public, why was it wrong to state the name of breeder when it can be found on public records? Anyone who is not well versed in breeding and certifications and what they mean would be alarmed at the words "Retinal Displaysia-Folds" on a report. That's a completely understandable reaction. I really don't see that the OP did anything wrong asking for information from this board.

I think it is splitting hairs to say she posted incorrect information, when it clearly states Retinal Displaysia-Folds on the OFA report. You are leaving out the word 'displaysia' in your terminology, which is technically incorrect also.

I'm really not trying to argue with you, truely I'm not. I just would not want people to stop asking for information on this board because a breeder, any breeder, was offended that they did so. The best thing someone looking to purchase a puppy can do is educate themselves, asking questions is a good thing, and there is a wealth of information on this board - and note everyone always tells posters if they have questions to ask the breeder.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

We want good breeders to test for every health issue possible, which the good ones do. We want the good breeders to sell their puppies for a price not out of range for the general public, which the goods ones do. We want the good breeders to stand behind their puppies and guarantee them no matter what, which the good ones do. We want the good breeders to be available to answer questions, give advice, hold our hand in the bad times and rejoice in the good times and just generally be there whenever we need them, which the goods ones do. So then why is this kind of post acceptable?? Why is it acceptable to make this kind of question a public concern before it has been addressed in private with the breeder? Yes SOME breeders lie but the good ones go above and beyond. I truly believe knowledge is power but knowledge without facts, without going to the source is a witch hunt!!


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

brookshiregr said:


> We want good breeders to test for every health issue possible, which the good ones do. We want the good breeders to sell their puppies for a price not out of range for the general public, which the goods ones do. We want the good breeders to stand behind their puppies and guarantee them no matter what, which the good ones do. We want the good breeders to be available to answer questions, give advice, hold our hand in the bad times and rejoice in the good times and just generally be there whenever we need them, which the goods ones do. So then why is this kind of post acceptable?? Why is it acceptable to make this kind of question a public concern before it has been addressed in private with the breeder? Yes SOME breeders lie but the good ones go above and beyond. I truly believe knowledge is power but knowledge without facts, without going to the source is a witch hunt!!


This thread is hardly a witch hunt... let's stop with the histrionics please. A question was asked. A question was answered. People who answered supported the breeder and encouraged the OP to speak with her personally. And the breeder herself had the opportunity to come by and clarify things. 

Yes, the good breeders do all those things that you mentioned. They also encourage puppy buyers to educate themselves. That's exactly what the OP was attempting to do. How on earth is this person who is new to researching golden breeders to know that HVG is a reputable breeder? The word dysplasia is a scary one... whether we're talking hips, elbows or eyes. So she asked a question -- "Is this a genetic disease?" -- and stated that "IF SO" she would not be interested in this litter and couldn't understand why the breeding would be done. The answer came that this is not considered to be a heritable trait in goldens, that it is a breeder option and that this breeder is known to do all clearances (though some aren't posted on OFA so the OP was also reminded to ask to see those clearances in hard copy form).

This is all getting a little ridiculous. Yes, the breeder's website states that the information is available upon request. It's also available in a public database. Why shouldn't the OP have looked up the information herself? That's the whole point of the database being public!! So that interested parties can independently verify the information they are being given. It's hardly an insult to a breeder for a puppy buyer to look them up on OFA and CERF databases... it's the sign of a buyer who wishes to educate themselves on the aspects that make a breeder reputable. 

Jennifer, you can't accept the positive referrals you get from this forum and then call fowl when someone asks the members a question about you. To quote your own post, "You can't have it both ways." Those referrals come about because of questions like this. Not saying you shouldn't have stopped by to clarify the situation... but you can hardly claim that the tone of this thread was anything but favorable to you. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

aileenzw said:


> We were very close to sending in a reservation for one of Harborview's litters as I saw that they came highly recommended from some other threads in the forum. However, I did look at the dam who is Harborview's Conspiracy of One 'Alibi' and she has retinal dysplasia! Is this disease hereditary? If so, I would no longer consider getting a puppy from them. (More importantly, why was she bred then? :doh
> 
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> 
> Any thoughts?


Jersey's Mom stated that she didn't feel that the OP was malicious in the original posting, and I would like to agree. "Like to". But cannot quite, given the last sentence in parenthesis and the :doh:...this was not a person simply asking for information about retinal dysplasia - folds, but as worded, aLthough I wouldn't call it a "witch hunt", would appear to be someone who intended to to cause others to question the reputation and integrity of the breeder. 
I am not so inclined to have an issue with the breeder and dog being named, if it weren't for how she worded it.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Not a witch hunt? Really???? How about you go to the OFA website and verify what the bitch in question was actually diagnosed with. Had you done this then you wold have seen she has retinal folds which is a far cry from retinal dysplasia! It takes a lifetime to build a reputation as a good ethical breeder and a nanosecond to have it tarnished by someone who can't be bothered to get their facts straight. I will stand up for my fellow breeders that do this because they love this breed, I will continue to call a spade a spade. You call it whatever you want but I say get your facts straight before you post on a public forum and slam a good ethical breeder without even giving them the chance to correct you.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

There was no malicious intent in this question, it is a question that deserves an answer. 

Is it hereditary? 
If so, why would the dog be bred?

I just don't get why asking these questions is wrong. 

I certainly don't see how you could determine there was intent _"to cause others to question the reputation and integrity of the breeder."_ That's a reach IMO. There have been a lot of people who post on this board with very pointed, detailed complaints, with deliberate intent to question the reputation, or blacken the reputation of breeders, there's no question that's what those posts are doing. This one is not in that category.


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## aileenzw (Aug 10, 2011)

I do apologize for any harm or hurt that I've caused. I really did not mean to. We are a first time puppy buyer and I'm sorry if I misleaded anyone. 

I am someone who sincerely cares about the health of puppies and when I saw the OFA page I was like "DYSPLASIA? PANIC!!!" I am not an expert in clearances or even well educated in what the wording means, which is why I came here and asked for thoughts. Some people here kindly explained and then I understood that it was not a dysplasic dog. It wasn't my intention to spread any false information. I did email Jennifer after I saw the CERF and I just wanted to get a second opinion because I have been told false information so many times by breeders who were less than ethical. I did not mean to offend Jennifer in any way or misrepresent her beautiful dogs. The "headsmack" I was intending to mean "I am confused as to why this dog was bred (did not know it was not genetic" rather than "I am judging her for breeding this dog." Sorry if it hurt anyone.

Also I have always thought that it was okay to put links to OFA websites and post a breeder's name? I have seen it many times people coming here and asking "Has anyone heard of x?" and others saying "hey look at this dog [link]" so I did not think it was wrong to do so. Please correct me if I am wrong and I will stop doing it. =\

I am just someone who truly wants a healthy puppy for my family. Please don't take it any other way and I am really sorry if I have hurt anyone's feelings.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Also, it is never an insult when puppy buyers want to inform themselves with as much information as possible. Good breeders applaud this and will help them do so BUT it is an insult when puppy buyers post the wrong information on a public forum about a good and reputable breeder. What exactly is the issue here? Are we to encourage this kind of thing? Are we to just sit back and say, oh well, they meant well, they were trying to inform themselves?? NO NO NO!!! Information is power, true, the wrong information is dangerous.


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## aileenzw (Aug 10, 2011)

brookshiregr said:


> Not a witch hunt? Really???? How about you go to the OFA website and verify what the bitch in question was actually diagnosed with. Had you done this then you wold have seen she has retinal folds which is a far cry from retinal dysplasia! It takes a lifetime to build a reputation as a good ethical breeder and a nanosecond to have it tarnished by someone who can't be bothered to get their facts straight. I will stand up for my fellow breeders that do this because they love this breed, I will continue to call a spade a spade. You call it whatever you want but I say get your facts straight before you post on a public forum and slam a good ethical breeder without even giving them the chance to correct you.


Uhm. So no, I was not doing a witch hunt. I saw Jennifer was highly regarded in the forum so I decided to take a look at her dogs. I saw "Retinal Displaysia-Folds" and I was concerned. I didn't know what the difference was and I'm glad it was clarified. I wasn't trying to tarnish anyone's reputation, I just wanted a clarification.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Retinal Dysplasia is very different from Retinal Folds. It is the difference between a Cerf and a fail. Get it? Jenn's bitch does not have Retinal Dysplasia. Get it? Her bitch passed Cerf. What has beed posted here is wrong and harmful. Get it?


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

So why if you were so concerned didn't you contact Jennifer first to ask her about this before posting the wrong information on this forum?


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## aileenzw (Aug 10, 2011)

aileenzw said:


> I am someone who sincerely cares about the health of puppies and when I saw the OFA page I was like "DYSPLASIA? PANIC!!!" I am not an expert in clearances or even well educated in what the wording means, which is why I came here and asked for thoughts. Some people here kindly explained and then I understood that it was not a dysplasic dog. It wasn't my intention to spread any false information. *I did email Jennifer after I saw the CERF and I just wanted to get a second opinion because I have been told false information so many times by breeders who were less than ethical.* I did not mean to offend Jennifer in any way or misrepresent her beautiful dogs. The "headsmack" I was intending to mean "I am confused as to why this dog was bred (did not know it was not genetic" rather than "I am judging her for breeding this dog." Sorry if it hurt anyone.





brookshiregr said:


> So why if you were so concerned didn't you contact Jennifer first to ask her about this before posting the wrong information on this forum?


As stated previously...


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

brookshiregr said:


> Not a witch hunt? Really???? How about you go to the OFA website and verify what the bitch in question was actually diagnosed with. Had you done this then you wold have seen she has retinal folds which is a far cry from retinal dysplasia! It takes a lifetime to build a reputation as a good ethical breeder and a nanosecond to have it tarnished by someone who can't be bothered to get their facts straight. I will stand up for my fellow breeders that do this because they love this breed, I will continue to call a spade a spade. You call it whatever you want but I say get your facts straight before you post on a public forum and slam a good ethical breeder without even giving them the chance to correct you.


Did you look at post #16? A screen shot of the OFA page is posted. The diagnosis reads "G1 - Fundus, retinal dysplasia - folds." The OP zeroed in on the word dysplasia. As someone new to all this, isn't that the word that would jump out at you? So the person came here to ask whether it was a genetic issue and got the answer that this was actually retinal folds which is a breeder option. She came here to seek facts... to get them in order as you say... she didn't come here claiming to have them. I have nothing but the highest respect for reputable breeders... I happen to be related to one. 

PG- you know I love to disagree with you, lol. You're usually the first to point out that tone can be misinterpreted on a forum. The comment you reference started with a question "Is this disease hereditary?" and then rested on a supposition, "If so...." Yes, the OP likely saw the word dysplasia and expected the worst. But everyone seems to have forgotten the OP's next post:



aileenzw said:


> Thank you for the clarifications. I did email Jennifer at Harborview back inquiring about the two updated clearances as well as eye/heart for the sire as well. Hopefully she does have them. Will keep y'all posted!


She took the advice offered and thanked the folks on this forum for explaining things to her. She also contacted the breeder directly for more information as recommended. There was no continued push to discredit anyone as one might expect from someone with that intent. As always, just my opinion, but I truly don't see malice there.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

brookshiregr said:


> Retinal Dysplasia is very different from Retinal Folds. It is the difference between a Cerf and a fail. Get it? Jenn's bitch does not have Retinal Dysplasia. Get it? Her bitch passed Cerf. What has beed posted here is wrong and harmful. Get it?


Talk about a witch hunt. Get off your high horse. This is a new puppy buyer who is trying to learn, not someone who has clearly done as much homework to date as you. Get it? Do you really believe addressing someone in that way is the best way to encourage puppy buyers to educate themselves and find a reputable breeder? It seems a much better way to alienate someone, make them afraid to ask questions, and wind up getting swindled by the brokers and millers who know how to talk the talk. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

mylissyk said:


> There was no malicious intent in this question, it is a question that deserves an answer.
> 
> Is it hereditary?
> If so, why would the dog be bred?
> ...


The question IS valid. But it was also answered in detail on the very site she was already on looking at the certifications. Her post was worded in a rather accusatory manner, IMO, and as I wrote in the post you snipped from , as worded "_would appear_" to be intended to cause others to question the reputation and integrity of the breeder." 
The other postings that you refer to ARE very detail complaints, and do deliberately question reputations when it is PROVEABLE that claims made are NOT TRUE, such as clearances not being done, breeding underaged dogs, etc. Entirely different scenario than this one.


***Added:

The op has since edited her first post.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Tust me, no high horse! I encourage all puppy buyers to do their homework and inform themselves as much as possible because well, just in case breeders lie. BUT to post the wrong information on the internet about a breeder that has done everything by the book has to be addressed. Don't you see that? If you Google HVG this will come up and if the truth is not told then the lies will become the truth. A question Jersey's Mom, are you a breeder?


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

brookshiregr said:


> Retinal Dysplasia is very different from Retinal Folds. It is the difference between a Cerf and a fail. Get it? Jenn's bitch does not have Retinal Dysplasia. Get it? Her bitch passed Cerf. What has beed posted here is wrong and harmful. Get it?



Wow... speaking of bitches...


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

brookshiregr said:


> Retinal Dysplasia is very different from Retinal Folds. It is the difference between a Cerf and a fail. Get it? Jenn's bitch does not have Retinal Dysplasia. Get it? Her bitch passed Cerf. What has beed posted here is wrong and harmful. Get it?


 
Then take it up with OFA, because I clearly see the word *DYSPLASIA *on the OFA website. 

OP did exactly what we want puppy buyers to do, ask people who are more knowledgeable than themselves to explain what that means.

Get it?


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Yes you can call me a bitch if you like, I would like to disagree. Still post the wrong information on a public forum about a good breeder and I will stand up and call a spade a spade. If that makes me a bitch so be it, I have been called worse) If I said nothing I would be a coward and that is worse because this breed needs more breeders like Jenn Craig! Have a grate evening Marlene!!


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Great not grate!!


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

OP should have have asked her breeder that she trusted enough to get a puppy from. If she didn't feel comfortable with the answer then she should have come to the Forum! Get it???


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

It's hard to not get heated when your reputation that you've spent years to build is being called into question, when all that really needed to be done was to pick up the telephone and have a conversation. I think our forum is a special place, we help many new puppy buyers to find reputable breeders, like Jennifer and Julie, but to attack them... that's something different. We need to show the good breeders that we support them and the way that they do things because without them, our breed would truly be in trouble. We all make mistakes and we are all still learning everyday. Let's learn from the mistakes...because at this point, that's all that we can do.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

I see the OP has now changed her original post. I'm glad. That is all I wanted to see. The truth. I have a lot of respect for Jenn because she is really one of the good guys and when I saw the original post as it was, well, I had to stand up for a really good breeder that this breed needs and deserves. If that makes me a bitch ok I will accept that because this breed deserves people to stand up for it. BTW missmarstar, I'd be careful about the names you call others because our legal system prevents people from saying whatever they want on a public forum)


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

brookshiregr said:


> Tust me, no high horse! I encourage all puppy buyers to do their homework and inform themselves as much as possible because well, just in case breeders lie. BUT to post the wrong information on the internet about a breeder that has done everything by the book has to be addressed. Don't you see that? If you Google HVG this will come up and if the truth is not told then the lies will become the truth. A question Jersey's Mom, are you a breeder?


Could have fooled me... seeing as you're berating this person for doing their homework and trying to inform themselves. Actually, no "wrong" information was posted. The OP panicked at the use of a particular word (dysplasia) and failed to spell out the entire diagnosis in the title of this thread. She did however post a link to the OFA page, allowing the folks she was asking to see exactly what she was talking about and provide her with accurate information. And that's exactly what she got. Each person who responded gave accurate information (that this wasn't a genetic problem in goldens and that the breeder was doing things by the book). I see no harm to the breeder if this thread comes up... all things considered she comes out smelling like a rose with many people (myself included) referring to her as reputable and responsible.... not to mention her own input on the situation. Please point me to the "lies." 

No, I am not a breeder. My father is, though he does not refer to himself that way. He is also a known and respected member of this forum. He has produced 2 litters... 1 of which produced my boy Jersey. Jersey _may_ someday sire a litter. Anything else you care to know? And who, pray tell, are you?



brookshiregr said:


> OP should have have asked her breeder that she trusted enough to get a puppy from. If she didn't feel comfortable with the answer then she should have come to the Forum! Get it???


Actually, the OP has not filled out a puppy questionnaire/application yet... she is trying to determine whether she trusts this breeder enough to try and get a puppy from them. You say you encourage people to do their homework, but apparently only when they've already determined the breeder to be less than reputable. How exactly do you suggest someone new to all of this jargon do that? Usually we advise them to ask knowledgable people (including this forum) to help guide them. I still don't see why you are so up in arms and taking this personally. The OP did not come here shouting that the breeder was breeding dysplastic dogs and the people who responded didn't jump on the bandwagon and start throwing accusations. Nothing in this thread harmed the breeder's reputation... except perhaps the original title, which I notice has already been changed. So what on earth are you so angry about?

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

brookshiregr said:


> BTW missmarstar, I'd be careful about the names you call others because our legal system prevents people from saying whatever they want on a public forum)



LOL... ok then.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

brookshiregr said:


> I see the OP has now changed her original post. I'm glad. That is all I wanted to see. The truth. I have a lot of respect for Jenn because she is really one of the good guys and when I saw the original post as it was, well, I had to stand up for a really good breeder that this breed needs and deserves. If that makes me a bitch ok I will accept that because this breed deserves people to stand up for it. BTW missmarstar, I'd be careful about the names you call others because our legal system prevents people from saying whatever they want on a public forum)


Perhaps if you'd given the OP an opportunity to do that before bullying her, you wouldn't have had to get so worked up over nothing. I'm all for standing up for good breeders, Jennifer included, but going after people who are only trying to learn in the way you did will only drive them away from the "dog snobs" of the breeding world and back to the pet stores. And what a shame that would be.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Brookshirgr= Brookshire Goldens, I believe.... you all can figure out where that leads you....


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Jersey's Mom, I am a nobody so no worries. Still wrong information was posted in the original post that has now been altered, which I am very glad to see. The original post was wrong, do we need to continue? I can show you the difference between folds and dysplasia, no disrespect intended. We all need to learn at some point IF we care about this breed and want to do right by it. So, say hi to your dad, Hank, and, now that this has been corrected let's move on because our goal is the same isn't it? Educating the public and being responsible, honest breeders, well at least those of of us that do breed.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Actually Sally's Mom it is brookshiregr and you are correct it is Brookshire Golden Retrievers. I just prefer that it is spelled as it should be)


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

I think the point that Jersey's Mom is trying to make is that the OP didn't KNOW that the information was wrong. If people don't know the terminology, it's an honest mistake. Ease up a bit. Geez.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

And I am not bulling anyone. I am standing up for the truth. Enough said. If you are going to post the wrong information on the internet that condoms a good breeder that has done nothing wrong shouldn't someone stand up and say this isn't right. Now if the OP had contacted Jenn, asked her these questions and was not satisfied then I'd have zero issue with her coming her BUT don't you get it? She didn't give her breeder the chance to explain the situation and avoid all this. Are we to just turn a blind eye to this? to say nothing when something needs to be said?


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

brookshiregr said:


> Jersey's Mom, I am a nobody so no worries. Still wrong information was posted in the original post that has now been altered, which I am very glad to see. The original post was wrong, do we need to continue? I can show you the difference between folds and dysplasia, no disrespect intended. We all need to learn at some point IF we care about this breed and want to do right by it. So, say hi to your dad, Hank, and, now that this has been corrected let's move on because our goal is the same isn't it? Educating the public and being responsible, honest breeders, well at least those of of us that do breed.


The OP did not intentionally post "wrong" information. The word dysplasia is in the diagnosis. Right, wrong or indifferent... there it is. "G1- Fundus, retinal dysplasia - folds" Is it geographic dysplasia? No. Is it retinal detachment? No. And yet, there it is... "Retinal dysplasia - folds." Take that up with the folks at CERF... but don't sit here and berate a first time puppy buyer for repeating the very word that is sitting there staring her in the face.

You know my dad. Great. You'll soon learn that throwing his name out won't cause me to back down on anything. You are right... educating the public is a goal of mine. So is supporting reputable breeders... and perhaps someday becoming one myself (though I'm much more likely to work with studs than whelping bitches). Neither of those purposes is served by the way you acted in this thread. Get it? The OP apologized to Jennifer and changed the wording to better suit the diagnosis. She did her part to make things right. Now do yours... and apologize for losing your temper and acting like a bully.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I am actually feeling sorry for the OP, who IMO was just trying to educate herself and many of us including me, got a bit uppity.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

missmarstar, check out libel laws in MA. LOL!! Seriously, can't just write whatever you want about someone if it is malicious or damaging. LOL


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

brookshiregr said:


> missmarstar, check out libel laws in MA. LOL!! Seriously, can't just write whatever you want about someone if it is malicious or damaging. LOL



Libel laws apply to something that defames your character because it's untrue. Judging by your continued posts in this thread, I'm confident that any assessment I had of you is entirely correct.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

brookshiregr said:


> And I am not bulling anyone. I am standing up for the truth. Enough said. If you are going to post the wrong information on the internet that condoms a good breeder that has done nothing wrong shouldn't someone stand up and say this isn't right. Now if the OP had contacted Jenn, asked her these questions and was not satisfied then I'd have zero issue with her coming her BUT don't you get it? She didn't give her breeder the chance to explain the situation and avoid all this. Are we to just turn a blind eye to this? to say nothing when something needs to be said?


She wasn't "condoming" the breeder. She was asking a question. And it's not a bad thing that she asked on the forum. You expect puppy buyers to just take a breeder's word for everything?? While this is a reputable breeder, many are not, so kudos to the OP for doing her homework. It's been fixed, so chill. All you're doing is hurting your OWN breeding program because nobody is going to want to buy a puppy from someone who seems to think that breeders are above everyone else.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

But that doesn't change what is recorded here for anyone to Google at any point. There are so many bad breeders, so many people that make me want to stop doing this because it's hard. It's hard to do the right thing, have ethics, stand behind every puppy and always have the love of this breed in every decision you make. It's hard, that is why I asked if you were a breeder, no disrespect intended I just wanted to know if you get how hard this is. Then To have one of the good guys slammed in the way Jenn was, well I get good intentions. I really do. But I want to get across how important it is to talk to your breeder FIRST, then if you are not happy come here, but this can not be the first go to place or else we will lose our good breeders, they will get burnt out, tired of being publicly called out for something they have not done. It that what we want? Really?


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Well missmarstar we will talk further tomorrow after I forward your posts on, perhaps you are correct but perhaps not. Have a great evening


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Enzos Mom, I am so not concerned about my breeding program because this is NOT about selling puppies! This is about standing up for the truth and good breeders. The original post was HVGR and Retinal Dysplasia. When I first saw it I was shocked to see Jenn was breeding an unclear bitch BUT that wasn't the case was it? Had I not taken the time to read the post I would never have it was not true. That is the danger, people believing the headlines and not taking the time to read the whole story.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

brookshiregr said:


> Well missmarstar we will talk further tomorrow after I forward your posts on, perhaps you are correct but perhaps not. Have a great evening



You too! :wavey:


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

brookshiregr said:


> Retinal Dysplasia is very different from Retinal Folds. It is the difference between a Cerf and a fail. Get it? Jenn's bitch does not have Retinal Dysplasia. Get it? Her bitch passed Cerf. What has beed posted here is wrong and harmful. Get it?


Geeze, ease off. We all get it, alright?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

All i can say is wow, did this really come to this?


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Anney, some get it it and that is really good. If these posts made some people realize there is a difference and OFA is a great tool but your breeder is an even better one, and if they aren't by all means run. Trust me I have been advocating good breeding practices and educating puppy buyers for longer than this Forum has existed. You can not erase what is printed on the internet, which is why I am being so adamant about this topic, so when someone Googles this in months to come they can read the whole story.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

brookshiregr said:


> so when someone Googles this in months to come they can read the whole story.


Including the part where you bullied a person who made an innocent mistake. Nice going.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

brookshiregr said:


> Anney, some get it it and that is really good. If these posts made some people realize there is a difference and OFA is a great tool but your breeder is an even better one, and if they aren't by all means run. Trust me I have been advocating good breeding practices and educating puppy buyers for longer than this Forum has existed. You can not erase what is printed on the internet, which is why I am being so adamant about this topic, so when someone Googles this in months to come they can read the whole story.


You know why google will pull up this thread? Because it has a lot of activity and page-views. You are single-handedly fueling that fire. I don't think Jen Craig needs you to play policeman for her breeding program. We ALL get it so let's just drop it.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Enzos Mom, I don't know what triggered it, but your last post made me laugh. Perhaps I need to go to bed to get my much needed sleep due to my 4 week old pups....


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

brookshiregr said:


> But that doesn't change what is recorded here for anyone to Google at any point. There are so many bad breeders, so many people that make me want to stop doing this because it's hard. It's hard to do the right thing, have ethics, stand behind every puppy and always have the love of this breed in every decision you make. It's hard, that is why I asked if you were a breeder, no disrespect intended I just wanted to know if you get how hard this is. Then To have one of the good guys slammed in the way Jenn was, well I get good intentions. I really do. But I want to get across how important it is to talk to your breeder FIRST, then if you are not happy come here, but this can not be the first go to place or else we will lose our good breeders, they will get burnt out, tired of being publicly called out for something they have not done. It that what we want? Really?


But nobody was slammed. Nobody was publicly called out for anything. Did you actually read the thread? Or just the title? Of course it's hard... it's always hard to do the right thing. One doesn't have to be a breeder to understand that. But as a breeder you put yourself out there in the public domain. People will ask questions and they will not always come directly to you to do so. Hopefully they will ask a group of people like the ones at GRF who will provide accurate information, as the members here did in this thread. Again, there is nothing in this thread that makes Jennifer appear to be anything less than a reputable breeder... including the original somewhat-incorrect use of the word dysplasia. The only reputation I see harmed in this thread is yours, by your own actions and words. I don't know you, don't know anything about your kennel... but I do know that if I were a prospective puppy buyer, I'd be fairly terrified to ask you anything.

And remember... this is not yet "her breeder." She hasn't even filled out an application yet. She is trying to research first and she's doing the responsible thing and seeking to educate herself. Should she have waited for Jennifer to respond to her email? Maybe. But the fact of the matter is she would have wound up here anyway because she is not yet familiar enough with the terminology to know whether Jennifer's answer was legitimate. We can't encourage people to independently verify information and then assume there is malicious intent when they attempt to do so. And yes, that's exactly what I want people to do. Because not everyone will be lucky enough to stumble across the Jennifers of the world. And the ones who run into the thinly masked millers and BYBs that are talking the talk but not living up to the chatter need to have a resource such as this to help them discern the truth from the lies. Do we really want novice puppy buyers going only on their first instincts without seeking guidance because they are afraid of offending? How many times do the supporters of really crappy breeders come here and tell us how wonderful they are, how much they care for the dogs, and how all their dogs are vet certified or some silly bit of semantics that all adds up to a big pile of nothing? How do you propose new puppy buyers weed out the good from the bad without guidance from more knowledgeable people? 

I don't know why you are so intent on making the OP out to be the bad guy here? There is no bad guy... just someone trying to learn.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

I spoke the truth. I m tired of this. This breed needs good breeders, breeders that care and stand behind the dogs they produce, who are honest, who put the breed above the dollar. I will always speak the truth for these kinds of breeders because once they are burnt out and gone, then what are we left with. I can do back through the achieves, so many good breeders libeled because a puppy buyer didn't ask them first. Is that right? If the OP had gone to Jenn first then made the innocent mistake this would be so different. Don't you see that? We want our breeders to be reputable and accountable but how can they when we don't even give them the chance. Now we create fear and mistrust, how doe this help the breed WE all love so much?


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

Jersey's Mom said:


> I do know that if I were a prospective puppy buyer, I'd be fairly terrified to ask you anything.


:appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl:


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

brookshiregr said:


> Well missmarstar we will talk further tomorrow after I forward your posts on, perhaps you are correct but perhaps not. Have a great evening


Um, unless Missmarstar specifically gives you permission to forward her posts, it is extremely bad netiquette to "forward" them on to anyone. Your threats of "libel" and "legal systems" are just as bad. Stop trying to intimidate people into silence - it only makes you look more the bully.

You know, I once had a lot of respect for you as a breeder Brookshire, but after reading the way that you've gone after an obvious newbie for an honest mistake, I've lost any and all respect that I may have had for you. Even after she admitted her mistake and corrected her post, you continue to harp on it. Grow up and let it go.

OP, I am truly sorry that you have had to put up with Brookshire's nonsense. I hope that you will continue to stay and learn with us.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

brookshiregr said:


> Now we create fear and mistrust, how doe this help the breed WE all love so much?



Talk about creating fear...your prospective puppy buyers better hope that they never make an innocent mistake.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Jersey's mom, no worries about asking me anything because I will always answer to the best of my ability. I will always tell you the truth as I know it, if I am wrong I will be the first to say I am sorry. I do not care about a breeding program, my breeding program can stand on it's own merit, I do not care about if I can sell a puppy. I care about this breed. I care where it will be in 5, 10, 15 years. We are it's champion. We safeguard it for the next generation. The day I become concerned with selling puppies is the day I stop breeding. This breed is more than a dollar sign, is it not? I care about standing up for good breeders.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

ragtym said:


> Um, unless Missmarstar specifically gives you permission to forward her posts, it is extremely bad netiquette to "forward" them on to anyone. Your threats of "libel" and "legal systems" are just as bad. Stop trying to intimidate people into silence - it only makes you look more the bully.



She can forward my posts to anyone she wants.. I only wish I was there to hear the laughter that would ensue about her even thinking she had some sort of cause for a lawsuit against me.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

You could've turned this into a teaching moment, like everyone else here who responded. Instead, you went off on a tangent and have continued to do so, even though the OP changed her post once she was told of her mistakes. What more do you expect to get here?? It's changed. It was an honest mistake and nobody can change the past. GIVE IT A REST and leave the OP alone!


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

If someone publicly calls me a bitch, well I have a right to say you can't do that. And I have a right to send those posts to my attorney. 
I am all for mistakes, that is how we lean, I am not for not posting wrong information on a public forum about a great breeder without giving the breeder the chance to state their case before making it(incorrectly) public.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

This topic has gotten way out of hand. It's time to take a deep breath everyone. The people on the forum who have posted that they saw the intent and the original post as questionable because of the "why was she ever bred? :doh:" are breeders and breeders who are very forthcoming with good reputations. It is a walk a mile in my shoes kind of thing and I don't think there is a way to bridge the gap to make people understand why we as breeders, have a problem with that statement and not with the question about the clearance itself. Many breeders on the forum have posted about it and some have gotten quite nasty responses. I would like to ask that you all please try to understand that all a breeder has is their reputation-whether it be good or bad. It takes years and years and years with literally a lot of blood, sweat and tears to build a good repuation but it takes very little and sometimes just some misinformation for that breeder's reputation to be ruined. We as breeders know this because we have seen it happen time and time again so I ask again that you *PLEASE* try to understand how important a breeder's reputation is to them and their fellow breeders. 

I am going to try to explain this again, hopefully :crossfing I can explain where the breeders are coming from . Everyone on the forum-whether breeders, exhibitors or just golden lovers will always agree to check clearances and make sure that they are done for any dog you may be planning on purchasing. None of us has a problem with that. Where the problem comes in is that at some point in time, you have to ultimately have faith and trust in the person that you are going to purchase your puppy from. A breeder also has to trust the person who is purchasing one of their puppies. It is of paramount importance to good breeders that they have a good repoire with the families who have their puppies. A good breeder wants to stay in contact with the families who have their puppies and will be available to them for any questions or problems.

There also seems to be an issue with semantics so I would like to address that so it can be put to rest......
On the CERF bubble exam form under FUNDUS there is a category that says retinal dysplasia/retinopathy. Next to that, there are 3 bubbles-folds, georgraphic and detatched. Retinal folds are the only thing that will CERF. Geographic retinal dysplasia(more than a small area of the eye affected) will not clear CERF and obviously, detachted is pretty self explanatory, and will not clear CERF. The dog in question does have a CERF number and her OFA page has now been posted on the thread and shows that fact. When speaking about retinal dysplasia, breeders and opthomologists are actually referring to geographic retinal dysplasia and not retinal folds. Only a dog with a clearance will have a number whether it be CERF, the heart, the hips or elbows. There may be notations but they are clear animals and I have previously explained how CERF determines whether or not a condition will remain a breeder's option and these opthomologists are the experts in their field that review all the statistics that are being submitted on the bubble exam forms. Another poster very quickly posted a definition of retinal folds which is available on the site the OP was on checking clearances on and also by quickly doing a google search or asking the breeder.  For the record again, I did not get any questions about the information posted on the OFA website until after the posts were made here on the forum. 

Yes, there are good breeders and bad breeders-no one is going to debate that fact but at the end of the day, it is between the person purchasing the puppy and the breeder. As breeders, we want to foster that breeder/puppy buyer relationship. It is part of the "job" to stay abreast of information and issues that will affect the breed and to educate would be owners about the breed so I don't think it is a bad thing that we want to communicate with people who have an interest in our dogs or breeding programs.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

brookshiregr said:


> If someone publicly calls me a bitch, well I have a right to say you can't do that. And I have a right to send those posts to my attorney.
> I am all for mistakes, that is how we lean, I am not for not posting wrong information on a public forum about a great breeder without giving the breeder the chance to state their case before making it(incorrectly) public.


Uh, your attorney will probably point this out:



> *Question:* *What are some examples of libelous and non-libelous statements?* *Answer*: The following are a couple of examples from California cases; note the law may vary from state to state. Libelous (when false):
> 
> 
> Charging someone with being a communist (in 1959)
> ...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And not to turn this into what it wasn't at the start... which was a question about breeding a bitch with retinal folds, but can all breeders who responded say that they have never bred a dog before 2 years of age? And that all dogs they have bred have had all of the clearances as recommended by the GRCA COE? Me, I have dealt with breeders who talk the talk... I never believe it unless it is on a piece of paper in front of me or on OFA.


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## Visitador (Aug 12, 2011)

I think the moderator should lock this thread. It has been educative but it is now running into the danger of being a flame war. Nobody wins in those wars.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

brookshiregr said:


> If someone publicly calls me a bitch, well I have a right to say you can't do that. And I have a right to send those posts to my attorney.
> I am all for mistakes, that is how we lean, I am not for not posting wrong information on a public forum about a great breeder without giving the breeder the chance to state their case before making it(incorrectly) public.


Wow. You really don't see how you come across, do you?? Oh, well. Thank you, Jennifer, for being upfront and creating teaching moments within this thread, which is more than we can say for certain others. I just wish that _some people_ would realize that others make honest mistakes and how you respond to them sets the tone of the entire thread. Rather than bullying and accusing them of deliberately trying to tarnish a breeder's reputation, you could just explain to them why what they said is incorrect and let it go when they've fixed their mistake to the best of their ability.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Enzos Mom, what I want is for all of us to work together without this crap. I want puppy buyers educated, more than you will ever know. I want this breed protected by good breeders and my fear is attacks like this one will hurt the good ones. The bad ones, they do not care because the will always sell their puppies, their lies will always be believed. I want the puppy buyers that really need information to go to their breeder first, and if that breeder is bogus than I will be first in line to say so. We need to use our breeders before we sell them out. That is what I want,


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

As many have said this is CERF Breeder Option. The bitch had her eye exam and CERF'd along with the rest of her clearances. I don't know Jennifer personally per say but from what I do know of her from forums within the dog community she is a reputable breeder with the dogs best interest at heart. I would not think twice about a puppy from her


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

That's the problem...you're seeing this as an attack. It was anything but an attack, so CHILL OUT. If the breeder is bogus, how will they know without checking with places like this and asking questions that they have. Yes, Jennifer is legit. But how is a potential puppy buyer supposed to know that?! There's nothing wrong with a 2nd opinion.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Maybe if Jenn will tell Brookshire to chill, this thread will die.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Enzos Mom, because Jenn was never asked for the information before it was posted here. I deal so so much crap that I am sick of, I wish more puppy buyers would come to this site, I wish more puppy buyers weren't swayed by smoke and mirrors. BUT we have to give our breeders the benefit of the doubt first. I have many friends that are ready to give up, but they can't because where does that leave us? I'm sorry if I come across as a bully. I am so passionate about this breed and have been so for over 20 years. Perhaps I could be more eloquent but I have never called anyone a bitch(in my defense) I see these posts and it makes me so sad. This breed needs good breeders.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

I want to point out...not being very well versed myself, that the OP was posting as a inexperienced puppy buyer AND as a inexperienced poster in this forum. I am so glad that a few people on this forum tried to make people see this. I am also glad to see there are people and breeders here that can reason and not react so aggressively. It seems to me, the OP saw the error she made in the way she posted and was happy with the explanation given to her. The rest of the "fueling" just made it seem worse, for the people involved.

It makes me very sad to see this some posts on this forum become so vicious and cruel. If I were to ever "purchase" a puppy (fear not, I prefer to rescue), I would want to deal with a breeder who not only has all the required clearance, but also is a pleasure to deal with and talk to.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

In no way should someone give their breeder "the benefit of the doubt" first. Just sayin'.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

brookshiregr said:


> Enzos Mom, what I want is for all of us to work together without this crap. I want puppy buyers educated, more than you will ever know. I want this breed protected by good breeders and my fear is attacks like this one will hurt the good ones. The bad ones, they do not care because the will always sell their puppies, their lies will always be believed. I want the puppy buyers that really need information to go to their breeder first, and if that breeder is bogus than I will be first in line to say so. We need to use our breeders before we sell them out. That is what I want,


Question for you - how are potential buyers supposed to know who is bogus vs. who isn't if they don't ask questions? How do we educate them by attacking them?


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

brookshiregr said:


> I wish more puppy buyers would come to this site


Just as long as they ask the "right" questions and don't say anything you might consider as "bad" about your friends...yes?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Good luck with the rest of this thread, me and my 6 goldens (all house dogs) and my 3 pups need to get to bed. Soccer, visitors, and the meeting for the new golden club in Maine all beckon....


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

That is a great question!! If the OP had asked Jenn about the eye clearance and then come here that would have been so different. I am all for asking questions, getting as much information as you can and then asking questions. In this day and age I don't know that anyone deserves to be trusted without proof but let's give them the chance to provide the proof. That is all I am advocating. If we start challenging before we have the full facts is that fair? Would you want that in your place of business? Find a breeder, ask questions, as many questions as you need to and then get your 2nd opinions but is it fair to get 2nd opinions (public ones at that) without even first asking the questions? Imagine if that was done to you?


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Brookshire- You wish more puppy buyers would come to this site, but not ask questions? Well, that hardly makes sense. This was a question, not an attack. And it wasn't directed at you. Perhaps you can take a cue from the grace Jennifer has shown and take it down about 10 notches.

Jennifer- I hope nothing I've said in this thread would imply to you that I feel you've done the wrong thing in any way, shape or form. Of course your reputation is all you have. I'm not a breeder, but there are many endeavors in life where this is the case.. I really do get it. By your own description- per the CERF paperwork, retinal folds is considered a sub-category of retinal dysplasia. It is not considered to be hereditary or progressive in goldens and is therefore a breeder option.... but technically, it is a form of dysplasia, even though that's not generally what folks "in the know" are referring to when they use that word. Unfortunately, for folks not in the know... that's a very scary word to see. While you obviously are entitled to feel any way you want about this thread and the original post, I do hope you will take that fact into consideration. I hope you and the OP will have an opportunity to get to know eachother and perhaps even develop the type of relationship you so eloquently describe in your post... or decide that you're not the right fit for eachother. Either way, I hope it can be about more than this thread, especially now that the wording has been clarified. That was my thought when I originally posted.

To the rest of you: Sorry for any part I played in driving this thread out of control. I just hate the thought of a new person who really does seem to be trying to learn the right way to find a good, responsible breeder get verbally beaten up for making a mistake. The realization that that person (or others reading the thread) may wind up down the wrong path for fear of saying the wrong thing is what gets my hackles up. I agree that this breed needs good breeders and that as lovers of this breed it is our job to help defend those breeders and educate the public... but there's a big difference between educating and pummeling. I hate the though of losing a future steward of this breed because of one person's holdups.... but I'm done arguing in circles on this thread. 

To the OP: Good luck with your puppy hunt, wherever it may lead you. I hope we can be of help to you down the road should you need it.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

It's absolutely fair for her to do her research in any way she sees fit, whether she asks the breeder first or chooses to do the research on her own. If it was done to me, I would calmly respond on the forum, as Jennifer did, and hope that my friends don't start jumping in and bullying the person who asked.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

There are no right or wrong questions. If it matters to you then how can it be a wrong question? Friends have nothing to do with this. I am advocating for good breeders. I don't have to like you, you do not have to be my friend but it if you have the best interest of this breed at heart I will go to bat for you, friend or not. This breed is ours for such a short time then we pass it on. What we do today affects tomorrow. If we burn out the good breeders then the breed suffers.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Brookshire- You wish more puppy buyers would come to this site, but not ask questions? Well, that hardly makes sense. This was a question, not an attack. And it wasn't directed at you. Perhaps you can take a cue from the grace Jennifer has shown and take it down about 10 notches.
> 
> Jennifer- I hope nothing I've said in this thread would imply to you that I feel you've done the wrong thing in any way, shape or form. Of course your reputation is all you have. I'm not a breeder, but there are many endeavors in life where this is the case.. I really do get it. By your own description- per the CERF paperwork, retinal folds is considered a sub-category of retinal dysplasia. It is not considered to be hereditary or progressive in goldens and is therefore a breeder option.... but technically, it is a form of dysplasia, even though that's not generally what folks "in the know" are referring to when they use that word. Unfortunately, for folks not in the know... that's a very scary word to see. While you obviously are entitled to feel any way you want about this thread and the original post, I do hope you will take that fact into consideration. I hope you and the OP will have an opportunity to get to know eachother and perhaps even develop the type of relationship you so eloquently describe in your post... or decide that you're not the right fit for eachother. Either way, I hope it can be about more than this thread, especially now that the wording has been clarified. That was my thought when I originally posted.
> 
> ...


Lovely post, as all of yours have been in this thread (IMO). I agree that the OP never came in here to make damning statements, but was just curious and wanting to learn. Poor thing barely had a chance to, once this thread came under attack. Notice that she hasnt been back....who could blame her if she never comes back, and then what did this thread teach her? except for the few who tried to explain, she learned to keep her mouth shut...and now where does that get her??? Its a shame, someone came on here to learn and was "beat up". I've seen this other times, under different circumstances, and it really makes me sad more than anything else.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

brookshiregr said:


> What we do today affects tomorrow. If we burn out the good breeders then the breed suffers.


The same can be said about burning out the people who were looking to buy from good breeders by attacking them for mistakes instead of helping to educate them.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

Jersey's Mom, I want every puppy buyer to ask any question they see fit because that is what it is all about. Education. BUT you can not make false claims. Yes it was changed and I am really happy about that, so why am I still here? Because so many think what happened was ok. It wasn't ok. We are losing good breeders because they are "over it" and well I want to support the ones we have.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

OMG. She didn't make false claims. She asked a question. Chill. GOODNIGHT.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

ragtym, good post and something for me to think about.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

When I checked early this morning , I was dismayed by the tone and tenor of the thread. A nationally known breeder was called a rude name against forum rules, and the OP's question to a different breeder has been eclipsed by that. 

While the OP has every right to ask questions, the learning experience is that more tact, accuracy, and confidentiality was needed to establish an excellent relationship with the breeder while getting the question answered.

As far as the OP that is now changed, most functional adults know that if they publish something on a national forum, that there will be some kind of repercussion. I don't think you can expect to headline with a responsible breeder's kennel name and a health problem that you've gotten wrong, and not get a strong response. 

Can someone really expect to retain a breeder's goodwill, while publishing something dramatic on the internet? 

In the end, the OP has hurt her relationship to a good breeder with a nice litter through the tone of her post whether or not it was innocently intended. This might have less to do with golden retrievers, and more to do with the general excelerating need for social rules/ skills online to catch up with technology. 

It would be more kind, polite, and effective, if you happen to want a gorgeous baby from a good breeder, to be friendly and confidential when you have questions. If you truly feel a grievous wrong has been done in a breeding, or you just sincerely wonder if one has been done, and you go public to ask in a big, bold headline, the common sense consequence will be that you offend the breeder.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> When I checked early this morning , I was dismayed by the tone and tenor of the thread. A nationally known breeder was called a rude name against forum rules, and the OP's question to a different breeder has been eclipsed by that.
> 
> While the OP has every right to ask questions, the learning experience is that more tact, accuracy, and confidentiality was needed to establish an excellent relationship with the breeder while getting the question answered.
> 
> ...



I'm appalled that a moderator of this forum would address this issue in such a one sided way. The "nationally known breeder" (I know how you love them) happens to have been incredibly rude to a new poster as well.... also against forum rules. A new poster made an honest mistake. For God's sake: the word dysplasia IS in the diagnosis... why does everyone forget that? 

The social skills of nearly everyone on this thread... yourself and myself included... could use a second check. This forum has for a long time encouraged people to use breeder names when posting... and sometimes that will lead to situations such as this.... but for the most part it has allowed us to become a fantastic resource to new puppy buyers (such as the OP). Instead a "nationally known breeder" and now a forum moderator choose to go on the attack a new poster and new future puppy owner instead of using this as a teaching moment and guiding her to the right information and right way to go about finding it. If it were me, I'd have a very hard time feeling comfortable posting here for anything ever again. Is that really the way we want this story to end? Who wins there?

Were rude words used? Yes. I can't speak for anyone else but I used the word bully more than once. I described the behavior I saw... I "called a spade a spade." And I frankly don't care whether it's a "nationally known breeder" or "Joe Schmo up the street." The rules of forum etiquette apply to everyone and should certainly be addressed that way by someone in your position. Thank you and the poster I spoke with last night for reminding why it was I stopped frequenting this forum... the hypocrisy is thoroughly overwhelming. It'll be nice having more of my free time back again. Time for another break.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I think I have decided that my next dog will be an exceptionally well bred german shepherd  

:wave:


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Lol, the only rude word that catches my attention as exceeding our norm is the word"bitch" when not applied to a girl dog. Calling a human the "b" word is over the top. I am sorry you are appalled that I think this is going too far, but I do. 

Moderators still get to shoot straight and say what they truly think. I write every post sincerely representing my true opinion, as do you. Usually, we agree. This time, we don't. There are 100 breeders I like, including Ambika. I stayed out of the thread until the "b" exchange. 

People are free to name names here, but the point is there are consequences bc people are have equally free speech with which to react, as long as there are not swear words, hate speech etc. When you write an OP that comes out swinging, accidently or purposefully, you are likely to get a big reaction. That is the both the strength and weakness of these discussions.

Most of this thread is longstanding members judging each other's reactions now that Harborview has responded to the OP.


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

I am stepping in here and closing this thread as any information that was needed has been discussed and this does not need to turn into another heated topic.


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