# A warning about a breeder!



## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

What a dreadful experience for you. You have done the right thing in walking away and do report them to the authorities.


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## Noey (Feb 26, 2009)

I'm sad such a happy day for you turned into such a sad day. I hope you report him and the dogs that he has get good homes.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I don't know much about this, but I believe you can also report the breeder to the AKC if they are selling AKC registered puppies.


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## ggdenny (Nov 2, 2008)

mjf said:


> Is there a place I can post information regarding a breeder in California? I had ordered a puppy from them, and when I went up to pick him up, I was appalled at the conditions, and the huge number of dogs!


I'm actually appalled by your use of the phrase "ordered a puppy...", like it's a book from Amazon. Nevertheless, it's sad that these types of breeders are still in business.


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Those poor dogs. Please call the authorities.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

A beautiful web site does not a good breeder make, sad to say. I believe there's even a "stickie" that talks about breeders and websites and how, with all the clever marketing that goes on, it is so easy to be misled.

I wonder if you google your breeder's name, or kennel name, if it will show up in "rip off reports.com" or something similar? I would bet you're not the first to spot these conditions--but maybe you are. If something shows up, maybe you can see if a complaint was filed by someone else, and add yours to it. Good luck.


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## WLR (May 11, 2008)

Wonder if it was that one by LA that had the video up with the pup that died....
Golden Meadows ?


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## WLR (May 11, 2008)

rappwizard said:


> A beautiful web site does not a good breeder make, sad to say. I believe there's even a "stickie" that talks about breeders and websites and how, with all the clever marketing that goes on, it is so easy to be misled.
> .


 =======================================================

First RED flag for me are the ones that hide behind religion to justify their existance.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

I'd report them if I were you for sure. Now that you know about those poor suffering animals, you are just as responsible for their abuse as he is as long as you do nothing. It's great that you know his address. Report him to the local police - ASAP. Insist to them the deplorable conditions and beg for them to send someone out to check on his operation that day. I believe that you have a moral duty here to do everything you can to get help for the dogs in his care. If the police stonewall you, call your local news show. I'm sure they'd love to break a story like that. Contact the SPCA and ask what you can do.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

You can contact the police- this is a puppy mill and I'm not sure about laws in CA, but depending they may be in violation of # of animals owned, etc. Please do this- it's the only way to save other people and pets from this terrible, cage-confined life!! You can also report him to Ceasar Milan's hotline: http://www.cesarsway.com/tips/puppytips/puppy-mill-hotline 1-877-MILL-TIP. The AKC should also be contacted. 

There are a number of high quality breeders in California. I know that our members would be happy to recommend one. Start a new topic and you'll get some responses.


Welcome to the forum. I'm glad that you've found us. I'm also glad that you were strong enough to leave without the puppy. Early socialization is SO important and it is often hard, if not impossible to 'catch up.'


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

'ordered a puppy online' and 'usually ships' would be a big neon red flag to me. Always visit the breeder's home in person or ask a lot of questions before committing to a puppy. A nice website is one thing, but heck I could go down the road to spruce meadows, take pictures of the grounds and such there and post them as my home and most people wouldn't realize it!

Glad you didn't get a puppy there and I hope he gets what's coming. I'm sure there are lots of great breeders in your area, I think there was a post not long ago on Cal breeders...

Lana


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Here is an older post that covers many breeders that you could look into:

Birnam Wood
Artistry
Premiere
Tapestry Gold
Cabot Ridge
Sunbeam 

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?p=875921


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## mjf (Mar 7, 2010)

ggdenny said:


> I'm actually appalled by your use of the phrase "ordered a puppy...", like it's a book from Amazon. Nevertheless, it's sad that these types of breeders are still in business.


You are appalled over wording?? Ughhh. :uhoh: I was just trying to shorten my post. I said that I have had the honor of 5 Goldens in my life, and currently have a 6th. 3 of these were rescued. I called this breeder, and spoke with him at length many times. I told him I was interested in a puppy that perhaps was "older", or one that for what ever reason did not yet have a home. He told me of a male that "slipped through the cracks", but was healthy and very sweet. I then gave him a deposit over the phone (hence my term "ordered"). NO, I DO NOT THINK PUPPIES ARE SOMETHING YOU JUST ORDER UP LIKE DINNER.

Goodness, my first post, and I have already been attacked. It is so nice to be judged based on wording. Now I know why I generally avoid forums like this, and will probably do so in the future.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I would give the name of the breeder. That way if someone else is searching for information about them they will hopefully find your post.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

You might want to search the forum for White Dove, White Dove Ranch, and several other names used by one particular facility.

If the conditions were appalling-dirty, feces lying around, etc. it would be worth trying to report them to the USDA or local animal control. Truly appalling conditions are illegal and at a minimum violate USDA requirements. Unfortunately, there is a gray area where conditions that none of us would approve of, are considered acceptable. What most of us would consider puppy mills are illegal and certainly should be reported.


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## elh1232 (Feb 20, 2010)

That is so sad, I would definately report them if I were in your position.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Unfortunately there are people that do 'order dogs like dinner' and then proceed to keep them in the yard as ornaments.....

On a forum...initially, all we have is our choice of words....Your explanation was helpful in clarifying your true meaning.

I look forward to hearing stories of your past Goldens and your future pup.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

mjf said:


> You are appalled over wording?? Ughhh. :uhoh: I was just trying to shorten my post. I said that I have had the honor of 5 Goldens in my life, and currently have a 6th. 3 of these were rescued. I called this breeder, and spoke with him at length many times. I told him I was interested in a puppy that perhaps was "older", or one that for what ever reason did not yet have a home. He told me of a male that "slipped through the cracks", but was healthy and very sweet. I then gave him a deposit over the phone (hence my term "ordered"). NO, I DO NOT THINK PUPPIES ARE SOMETHING YOU JUST ORDER UP LIKE DINNER.
> 
> Goodness, my first post, and I have already been attacked. It is so nice to be judged based on wording. Now I know why I generally avoid forums like this, and will probably do so in the future.


 
It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face kind of thing. Sure, avoid a forum with so much information and so many great people because you don't like one comment. If you are going to do that, can I please ask that you do report the guy you were talking about and let us know that you did that?

gg was a bit overzealous but as gg works a lot with rescues you can kind of understand a knee jerk reaction to that phrase. Also, you've gotta admit that you kind of flopped here too - not your most educated decision to visit and talk at length with a breeder who usually ships out of state and doesn't have people come get the dogs. Always best to meet the parents, the breeder and ask all the questions. You did not do so, but we learn our lessons and we move on. Not everyone is born all knowing and we've all done some things that when we look back, think, boy, that was stupid of me! The great thing is you cared enough to log on and post about this and not just turn a blind eye to it. Go you! Seriously.

Now, if gg has deeply offended you, I'm sure that if you stick around long enough, there will be others on the forum that will offend you as well. Heck, I may be one of them. I don't try to be mean or rude but boy oh boy, if you hit on something I feel super strongly about, I am not one to hold my opinion back and I'm not considerate enough to double read it and make sure that it's not too strongly worded. You have to have a bit of thick skin to hang tough on any forum - I hope you have some and stick around. We may not agree on everything but the one thing we do agree on is that we love our dogs so very much and we love the breed. 

Again....please please please alert the authorities for the sake of those dogs. :hyper:


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Pointgold may be a member to contact. She may be able to offer some really good advice....

Don't run off because of one comment. Stick around. You may be able to help educate others!


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## PC Mom (Oct 30, 2009)

I'm sorry your were offended by the other post. Unfortunately, that's often the way things are, but you should realize that you have done the right thing by posting here. 

In addition to contacting the authorities (police, AKC, ASPCA, etc.), please consider posting in the 'Choosing a breeder and puppy' board. I know that many people who are researching breeders look there and talk specifically about names of the breeders so others can be warned too because, as you now know, it's easy for someone to sound good online and on the phone, but to have a completely horrible situation in real life. 

Don't worry about how you might be judged, if you help shut this person down or save one family from getting a dog (who very well might have issues for the rest of its life) from this awful place, it's worth it!


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I agree, post the name of the breeder/website. I'm on a border collie email list and one member kept posting about how she got a dog who was rehomed to her as a show dog and was very aggressive etc. and she didn't want to keep the dog, however the breeder refused to take the dog back and rescue wouldn't touch the dog without the papers which the lady didn't have on her, the original owner did. She didn't want to 'name names', but then it was pointed out that others on the list might want to know in advance if they are considering that breeder etc...

I wasn't trying to offend you either, it just sounded from the first post like you had simply filled out a form online for a pup and not done a lot of homework. It's a story we hear all the time, people don't do their homework and then are 'shocked' at the results. I'm in a bit of a mood since about a year ago one of the neighbors called me to see if I wanted her untrained lab that was kept out in the yard all the time, because she'd decided to up and move and didn't want to take the dog. Then after getting rid of the dog decided NOT to move, so 3 months ago brought home another puppy, saw the pup twice and it's now living in the yard on ignore, out of control and yep, called me to see if I wanted this lab.... sheesh!

Lana


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## vixen (Jul 26, 2008)

Sounds a horrible place. I pleased you walked away

though posting about it and not telling us who it was is pointless.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

Bender said:


> 'ordered a puppy online' and 'usually ships' would be a big neon red flag to me. Always visit the breeder's home in person or ask a lot of questions before committing to a puppy. A nice website is one thing, but heck I could go down the road to spruce meadows, take pictures of the grounds and such there and post them as my home and most people wouldn't realize it!


Totally agree! Never commit to purchasing a puppy without meeting the breeder first and checking out the environment and at least meeting the dam. Any breeder who "takes orders" for puppies online screams puppy mill and is a huge red flag. I highly doubt that they do any health clearances on their dogs at all. Just about anyone can make a really nice looking web site, but it's so important to actually go and meet the breeder in person and see copies of the health clearances before making a commitment. I'm glad that you didn't take the pup!


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

The OP has uncovered a California puppy mill. Most good-sized humane societies and animal shelters in California have humane officers who investigate cruelty complaints. Please, OP, contact the shelter or humane group nearest to this puppy mill and tell the folks there what you saw. You have a great chance of helping shut this place down, or at least forcing the operators to clean it up. You can make a real difference in the lives of dozens of dogs.


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## ggdenny (Nov 2, 2008)

I appreciate why others might react negatively to my post. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that more active forum members didn't also bristle at the phrase "ordered a puppy."


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

ggdenny said:


> I appreciate why others might react negatively to my post. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that more active forum members didn't also bristle at the phrase "ordered a puppy."


I didn't make an issue of that phrase because I am more concerned about the conditions the OP discovered, and in getting someone in authority to investigate and perhaps close the operation down.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

What part of CA are you located? I'm interested to hear who this breeder is.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

jwemt81 said:


> Totally agree! Never commit to purchasing a puppy without meeting the breeder first and checking out the environment and at least meeting the dam. Any breeder who "takes orders" for puppies online screams puppy mill and is a huge red flag. I highly doubt that they do any health clearances on their dogs at all. Just about anyone can make a really nice looking web site, but it's so important to actually go and meet the breeder in person and see copies of the health clearances before making a commitment. I'm glad that you didn't take the pup!


That, and anyone can sound 'great' on the phone and have all the right answers, but it's different if you can meet in person and see for yourself. I've even talked to some pet breeders around here, asking questions about health and so on and they have some pretty good lines of BS they can pass off about how their dogs are all healthy and no clearances are 'really' needed in their own case anyway. If someone wasn't too picky they'd be thrilled with that (things like they just had the dog's hips checked with a vet and they were fine, no real need to xray and send it in because it's just for their own knowledge only and they can get a note from the vet if need be but nobody else has ever asked or had issues and it only affects the cost of the puppy:doh.

Lana


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Welcome to the forum,

I am so sorry you had a bad experience in trying to find a good breeder. But at least you found out before. Too many people have been burned by a breeder that hides the problems and then the people brought home what they thought was a healthy puppy and it was just the opposite. I would do everything that people have suggested to get them shut down. You can list the name of the breeder here, we have had bad and good breeders listed here before. In fact it might help someone from making the same mistake in the future. 

Please stick around. Sometimes things do not come out they way they are meant. We have alot of great members here from breeders, people in rescue and just all around great people. So Welcome to the forum. There are alot of people that can steer you to a responsible breeder. 

I will move this to the breeder section of the forum.


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## buckeyegoldenmom (Oct 5, 2008)

ggdenny said:


> I appreciate why others might react negatively to my post. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that more active forum members didn't also bristle at the phrase "ordered a puppy."


I have to admit...I too bristled at the phrase "ordered a puppy." But please (to the OP) stick around. I find the more we talk...the more we understand each other. And sometimes our choice of words...may need "more words" to explain exactly what we meant.


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

mjf said:


> You are appalled over wording?? Ughhh. :uhoh: I was just trying to shorten my post. I said that I have had the honor of 5 Goldens in my life, and currently have a 6th. 3 of these were rescued. I called this breeder, and spoke with him at length many times. I told him I was interested in a puppy that perhaps was "older", or one that for what ever reason did not yet have a home. He told me of a male that "slipped through the cracks", but was healthy and very sweet. I then gave him a deposit over the phone (hence my term "ordered"). NO, I DO NOT THINK PUPPIES ARE SOMETHING YOU JUST ORDER UP LIKE DINNER.
> 
> Goodness, my first post, and I have already been attacked. It is so nice to be judged based on wording. Now I know why I generally avoid forums like this, and will probably do so in the future.


 
Some members feel they are judge and jury! Ignore their ignorant responses. I have puppy families that book/order/hope for!!! Its just a case on how things are worded.

I hope that you find a lovely breeder that can offer you the golden you want. 

Dont let the bullies push you away, hang in there!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

jwemt81 said:


> Never commit to purchasing a puppy without meeting the breeder first and checking out the environment and at least meeting the dam. Any breeder who "takes orders" for puppies online screams puppy mill and is a huge red flag.


That's only a piece of the puzzle, you've got to look at the whole, overall picture. Many many puppies are bought from very reputable breeders through the internet. Many of those same breeders will ship a puppy off to the new owners without ever actually meeting the owner in person. 

I spoke to many top performance breeders over the internet while searching for my next puppy. None of them had a problem selling me a puppy, and the majority of them would have shipped the puppy to me if I couldn't make it to them. Like I said, it's about the whole picture, not just a piece of it.

Now if the website has a paypal button for you to make a deposit without the breeder talking to you, at least through email first, then yeah, that's a red flag.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

mjf said:


> You are appalled over wording?? Ughhh. :uhoh: I was just trying to shorten my post. I said that I have had the honor of 5 Goldens in my life, and currently have a 6th. 3 of these were rescued. I called this breeder, and spoke with him at length many times. I told him I was interested in a puppy that perhaps was "older", or one that for what ever reason did not yet have a home. He told me of a male that "slipped through the cracks", but was healthy and very sweet. I then gave him a deposit over the phone (hence my term "ordered"). NO, I DO NOT THINK PUPPIES ARE SOMETHING YOU JUST ORDER UP LIKE DINNER.
> 
> Goodness, my first post, and I have already been attacked. It is so nice to be judged based on wording. Now I know why I generally avoid forums like this, and will probably do so in the future.


I think your first post wasn't clear. It really did sound like you had clicked a "buy puppy" button on a website, since right after you said "ordered," you explained that the breeder sold to brokers and others without vetting them. 

The clarification was helpful, but don't get too mad that you ruffled some feathers with that first post. People who buy puppies without researching their origin are the people who keep breeders like this in business.

But I'm with those who think you should post the breeder's name. It's not libel if it's true.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Lestorm said:


> Some members feel they are judge and jury! Ignore their ignorant responses. I have puppy families that book/order/hope for!!! Its just a case on how things are worded.
> 
> I hope that you find a lovely breeder that can offer you the golden you want.
> 
> Dont let the bullies push you away, hang in there!


 
This is off topic but could you PM me a list of these bullies? Wondering if anyone I know is on it!! :curtain:


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Lestorm said:


> Some members feel they are judge and jury! Ignore their ignorant responses. I have puppy families that book/order/hope for!!! Its just a case on how things are worded.
> 
> I hope that you find a lovely breeder that can offer you the golden you want.
> 
> Dont let the bullies push you away, hang in there!


Wow, nice. And you are calling people ignorant? It was a simple comment about "ordering" puppies, that the poster commented on. Hardly makes them ignorant. I hope the OP will come back, but I sort of doubt it will happen.


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

Wow, this post has gotten out of hand for no reason. That's too bad.

Anyways, I think you should report what you have seen. Give those poor dogs who are considered "breeding stock" or part of their "breeding program" a break. Dogs don't deserve to be treated unfairly. I know you will do the right thing. It never hurts to make a phone call. Those poor dogs and pups can't help that they are neglected. I definatly would never buy a dog unless I been to the home, it says a lot about the people who breed them.


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## mjf (Mar 7, 2010)

momtoMax said:


> It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face kind of thing. Sure, avoid a forum with so much information and so many great people because you don't like one comment. If you are going to do that, can I please ask that you do report the guy you were talking about and let us know that you did that?
> 
> gg was a bit overzealous but as gg works a lot with rescues you can kind of understand a knee jerk reaction to that phrase. Also, you've gotta admit that you kind of flopped here too - not your most educated decision to visit and talk at length with a breeder who usually ships out of state and doesn't have people come get the dogs. Always best to meet the parents, the breeder and ask all the questions. You did not do so, but we learn our lessons and we move on. Not everyone is born all knowing and we've all done some things that when we look back, think, boy, that was stupid of me! The great thing is you cared enough to log on and post about this and not just turn a blind eye to it. Go you! Seriously.
> 
> ...



You say that you _"will not hold your opinion back on things you feel strongly about"_, and not have to _"double read it so it isn't too strongly worded"_. Fair enough. I expect to be able to do the same without being called "thinned skinned". 

I didn't know this breeder _mostly_ shipped out of state until I met him. I could only go by what he said to me on the phone, and what others had told me. I put down a refundable deposit, based on what I thought was to be true. After driving across 3 states to get to this breeder, when I visited the ranch, I immediately realized what I was dealing with, and knew I couldn't take the puppy, as much as I would have loved to "rescue" him. You can say I am to blame and "flopped on this" all you want, but I thought I _was_ dealing with a responsible breeder. *That was the initial reason for my post. Just to warn others about him. Period.* I didn't think I would be the only person on this site that this has happened to, but... I guess THAT is where I am mistaken. 

At this point, the entire reason for my posting this message is moot. (And the authorities have been notified.)


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

mjf said:


> You say that you _"will not hold your opinion back on things you feel strongly about"_, and not have to _"double read it so it isn't too strongly worded"_. Fair enough. I expect to be able to do the same without being called "thinned skinned".
> 
> I didn't know this breeder _mostly_ shipped out of state until I met him. I could only go by what he said to me on the phone, and what others had told me. I put down a refundable deposit, based on what I thought was to be true. After driving across 3 states to get to this breeder, when I visited the ranch, I immediately realized what I was dealing with, and knew I couldn't take the puppy, as much as I would have loved to "rescue" him. You can say I am to blame and "flopped on this" all you want, but I thought I _was_ dealing with a responsible breeder. *That was the initial reason for my post. Just to warn others about him. Period.* I didn't think I would be the only person on this site that this has happened to, but... I guess THAT is where I am mistaken.
> 
> At this point, the entire reason for my posting this message is moot. (And the authorities have been notified.)


:uhoh: Glad you alerted the athorities. I've got nothing else nice to say so as my mama taught me, I'll stop right here.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

mjf said:


> You say that you _"will not hold your opinion back on things you feel strongly about"_, and not have to _"double read it so it isn't too strongly worded"_. Fair enough. I expect to be able to do the same without being called "thinned skinned".
> 
> I didn't know this breeder _mostly_ shipped out of state until I met him. I could only go by what he said to me on the phone, and what others had told me. I put down a refundable deposit, based on what I thought was to be true. After driving across 3 states to get to this breeder, when I visited the ranch, I immediately realized what I was dealing with, and knew I couldn't take the puppy, as much as I would have loved to "rescue" him. You can say I am to blame and "flopped on this" all you want, but I thought I _was_ dealing with a responsible breeder. *That was the initial reason for my post. Just to warn others about him. Period.* I didn't think I would be the only person on this site that this has happened to, but... I guess THAT is where I am mistaken.
> 
> At this point, the entire reason for my posting this message is moot. (And the authorities have been notified.)


Thanks for bringing us back to topic. I wonder if we can stay there? 

Glad you called the right folks. My curiosity still demands the name of the breeder, but as long as they don't get to continue their operation, that's what matters.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm glad the OP is taking the time to try and make a difference in the lives of pups to come. Many breeders "ship" their puppies and many are reputable. I remember mentioning I didn't like having a puppy shipped in one thread and the response I got. I cringe at certain words posted, but sometimes you must overlook the chosen word and read the rest of the post.

I'm glad you followed your heart!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Kimm said:


> I'm glad the OP is taking the time to try and make a difference in the lives of pups to come. Many breeders "ship" their puppies and many are reputable. I remember mentioning I didn't like having a puppy shipped in one thread and the response I got. I cringe at certain words posted, but sometimes you must overlook the chosen word and read the rest of the post.
> 
> I'm glad you followed your heart!


I too have a hard time reconciling the fact that excellent breeders ship puppies off to people they haven't met, but it's a common practice, and it's done by people I respect immensely. Still, in those situations, the breeders have taken substantial measures in order to make sure the homes will be good, and I'm told that puppies handle plane trips just fine.

So I do think shipping puppies is a long way from the image conjured by the idea of "ordering" one, but at the same time, I'm hugely sympathetic to the fact that the idea of shipping an animal, especially one so young, feels a little uncomfortable.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

To the OP I'm glad you reported the conditions you found to the authorities, I hope they take some action! I feel so bad for those poor dogs, what a horrible life they must be having.

If you were hoping to warn others of the poor conditions, it's a shame you couldn't share the name of the facility, that way others who are coming to this site will get a heads up if they're looking for a puppy in that area.

Just wanted to say I hope you find your perfect puppy really soon & come back here to share pics and stories with us.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

I'm sorry this forum apparently has driven away yet another new forum member. But I am happy that he/she alerted the authorities about this puppy mill and hope they are able to shut this place down.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

It's really disappointing that people feel the need to chastise new members simply because of how they worded something. Honestly, when someone is trying to help out some dogs, keep your personal feelings to yourself. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

To the OP: I'm really glad you've contacted the authorities. This must have been an awful experience for you; I know I would have been overwhelmed with a feeling of responsibility for all those dogs. Who did you contact? The ASPCA, the police?


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

I doubt if we will hear anything more from the OP.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Jackson'sMom said:


> I doubt if we will hear anything more from the OP.


That's really a shame. I PMed them hoping they might stick around and use the resources here to find a reputable breeder in California, because you guys on here are so knowledgeable!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Well, I can tell you at the age of 52 I sometimes use the wrong words. Actually, I use the wrong word very often. I even find myself losing words and not being able to sound them out, so I choose another in my haste to post! Just a little humor on the use of words and the way in which my own brain works at times. Sometimes it ain't funny when you lose them!

I wonder what reputable breeders do to ensure the family at the other end is the best for a pup??? Even breeders with little knowledge can ask for information like Vet's name, number, for references, etc...


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## 3SweetGoldens (Feb 28, 2007)

kdmarsh said:


> That's really a shame. I PMed them hoping they might stick around and use the resources here to find a reputable breeder in California, because you guys on here are so knowledgeable!


 
I agree....so glad she did report this breeder to the authorities. I have to say though, that it does concern me as to why she will not share with the forum the name of this breeder. It would help so many potential buyers to NOT purchase a puppy from this breeder.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

3SweetGoldens said:


> I agree....so glad she did report this breeder to the authorities. I have to say though, that it does concern me as to why she will not share with the forum the name of this breeder. It would help so many potential buyers to NOT purchase a puppy from this breeder.


My guess is she's still concerned that it could be considered libel, and she could get in trouble. I'm a weenie about things like that, and I probably wouldn't be able to tell the name of the breeder either.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Kimm said:


> I wonder what reputable breeders do to ensure the family at the other end is the best for a pup??? Even breeders with little knowledge can ask for information like Vet's name, number, for references, etc...


 
When we adopted MacKenzie from Dirk's Fund, they asked for Brady's vet records. I thought that was an excellent idea. They got to see a record of every appt, us buying Interceptor and Frontline, and also any personal comments that the vet had about Brady's condition and temperment.

Lack of appointments or negative comments on his condition would have been a red flag.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I really, really wish the name would be posted. This individual will almost certainly continue to breed dogs until the authorities take action, and even if they do, they may not shut down the operation. Depending on the local laws, there's a lot of awful stuff that can go on without actually breaking the law.


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

Kimm said:


> Well, I can tell you at the age of 52 I sometimes use the wrong words. Actually, I use the wrong word very often. I even find myself losing words and not being able to sound them out, so I choose another in my haste to post! Just a little humor on the use of words and the way in which my own brain works at times. Sometimes it ain't funny when you lose them!QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Haha! I do that too!


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

fostermom said:


> Wow, nice. And you are calling people ignorant? It was a simple comment about "ordering" puppies, that the poster commented on. Hardly makes them ignorant. I hope the OP will come back, but I sort of doubt it will happen.


 
Sorry I say as I see!

This poor person came to the group and told her story only to be made to feel that she had done wrong with the way she had looked for a puppy. Her initial post was asking about releasing the breeder name, not about how she had looked for a puppy and really it should have remained around the initial advice asked for.

Sorry if I offended anyone, I hope that the people that belittled this new member are big enough also to say sorry.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Lestorm said:


> Sorry I say as I see!
> 
> This poor person came to the group and told her story only to be made to feel that she had done wrong with the way she had looked for a puppy. Her initial post was asking about releasing the breeder name, not about how she had looked for a puppy and really it should have remained around the initial advice asked for.
> 
> Sorry if I offended anyone, I hope that the people that belittled this new member are big enough also to say sorry.


What about the people who called the initial "belittlers" bullies and other names? Shouldn't they apologize too?

Wasn't ggdenny just engaging in a little "I say as I see" as well?


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> What about the people who called the initial "belittlers" bullies and other names? Shouldn't they apologize too?QUOTE]
> 
> Sorry if I offended anyone, I hope that the people that belittled this new member are big enough also to say sorry.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> I really, really wish the name would be posted. This individual will almost certainly continue to breed dogs until the authorities take action, and even if they do, they may not shut down the operation. Depending on the local laws, there's a lot of awful stuff that can go on without actually breaking the law.


People are afraid of being sued Brian. Although the legal system in the US is very different than that of Canada, I know someone who was sued for what she posted online and she lost. She's spent thousands of dollars over the past years on legal counsel. I can understand the hesitation and respect that for this reason.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

:uhoh: Whatever, is all I have to say. I said nice things, and if the OP wants to get all uppity - whatever. I know that there are members that would not have bought Max from his breeders but I also know that in no way would I ever end up showing up at a puppy mill with a check ready to bring a dog home. If you don't see the flaw in that decision making/buying process - then that's on you. I'm not going to defend myself against an off the wall rant and I think that the OPs reply to gg was off the charts as well. So personally, I will not be drying my eyes if the OP chooses not to return - if you are, then you can have my tissues. I also won't accept any responsibility if the OP chooses not to return - that's on her/him so trust me, I won't be losing any sleep.

Oh, and by the by, if anyone is insinuating I'm a bully - oh please just come out and say it already. I don't see it that way. I post A LOT and almost all of them are super positive to positive to Switzerland. If you don't like how I put a couple percent of it, remember that's from a huge depth of posting and that's not too bad. I don't appreciate the insinuations that I'm a bully and need to apologize - well, don't hold your breath. :uhoh:


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## vixen (Jul 26, 2008)

mjf said:


> I thought I _was_ dealing with a responsible breeder. *That was the initial reason for my post. Just to warn others about him. Period.*


 
good to let other know but without Naming and shaming, it is still pointless.


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

Maybe just send a link to the site. Would that be a slanderous act?


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Lestorm said:


> Maybe just send a link to the site. Would that be a slanderous act?


You just made me LOL. I think a person can be dragged to court for anything if someone has the time and money. What a pain that is. Thankfully the OP said they are not ignoring what they saw.


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

It wouldn't be slander/libel if it's true, though... right? Or if they at least believe it's true. It's only slander/libel if they KNOW they are saying lies.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Mssjnnfer said:


> It wouldn't be slander/libel if it's true, though... right? Or if they at least believe it's true. It's only slander/libel if they KNOW they are saying lies.



Yes. It's apparently pretty difficult to prove libel or slander. Not only does the statement have to be false, but they have to prove that the person who said/wrote it KNEW it was false.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Kimm said:


> People are afraid of being sued Brian. Although the legal system in the US is very different than that of Canada, I know someone who was sued for what she posted online and she lost. She's spent thousands of dollars over the past years on legal counsel. I can understand the hesitation and respect that for this reason.


That stinks, but truth was established as a defense against libel suits back in the 18th century, and fair comment law further protects an individual's right to state an opinion about a business.

Some of that law is limited when it comes to the food industry, but those principles generally stand.

Also, literally dozens of breeders have received less-than-flattering reviews on this site, and nobody's been sued, to my knowledge.

As a last level of protection, an individual could post the review anonymously to ripoffreport.com or something and then link it here.

Just some thoughts.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

They can still drag you into court and make you spend money defending yourself. I think we have a member who knows a lot about this, but probably cannot share.


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## mjf (Mar 7, 2010)

Oh my, how things can so easily get out of hand!! Like I have said over and over, I only wanted to *ASK* if it were ok if I mentioned the name of a bad breeder. Some forums do not want you to do this. A simple "yes it is ok" would have sufficed! I guess it is, so.... that is good to know. Thank you.

Also, had I known this breeder was "bad", I would have never even called him. _HE WAS RECOMMENDED TO ME_ by someone who was lucky enough to get a healthy dog from him. When I saw it was a puppy mill, I WALKED AWAY. I wish people would stop saying that "she went to a puppy mill" like I was totally irresponsible. Had I known, I would not have been there in the first place.

Because I can not respond to email (being a new member) I would like to thank so many of you for the kind things you have said to me in personal messages. No need to apologize for the words of others, however, I do appreciate it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, as am I. _*I KNOW*_ I acted responsibly by walking away. I was also only trying to be helpful in warning others about this breeder.

And to now hopefully close this post, the breeder was White D in Creston, CA. I know now that I am not the only person who has reported this breeder, but unfortunately, he still seems to be in business. What will close him down, I don't know. I know of others who have dogs from this breeder, and although they have had some health problems, the wonderful thing about Goldens is..... they are so sweet and loving, regardless how they have been treated and raised. (Ok, I had better stipulate that I am sure there are exceptions, before THAT comment get mis-interpreted!) 

Now, time to move on to other subjects. I will be checking in occasionally, but probably not commenting much!!


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

glad you will stick around.....


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

mjf,
As soon as you made your post and I saw you were in California, I had a feeling it was the breeder. We have had several members join here that have gotten dogs from him and had so many problems. He has so many names on the web. There have been several threads about that breeder here on the forum and we have even had the pleasure of that breeder telling us all what he thinks of us. 

Please stick around and I hope you will let us help you find a good quality responsible breeder. Yes some people might have been gotten off with you on the wrong foot but that can happen on the internet when you are going by the written word. We are really a great group of people that care about animals and can help you. Give us a second chance, we dont bite, well not hard. LOL


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

And thank you for reporting what you saw to the authorities. Maybe if enough people complain, something will be done to help those poor dogs.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ah, so it's the White D, White Dove, White Duck people with the three websites.

Gosh, I really hope the authorities can do something about them.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> Ah, so it's the White D, White Dove, White Duck people with the three websites.
> 
> Gosh, I really hope the authorities can do something about them.


Ya forgot the latest incarnation - goldenretrieverpuppies4u

BTW, they also have goldenretrieverpuppies4u2 - they just haven't started using it as much yet.


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## Minnesota Rosie (Jul 28, 2009)

I went on the White D website, just out of curiosity, and I found it to be heartbreaking. On their "puppies" page, there are SO MANY listed!!! I don't know how anybody could have the time to take good care of all those puppies, plus their older dogs. Also, their prices seem REALLY high to me. Maybe that's normal in California, but to me, $2500 seems like a lot of money, even from a reputable breeder. Do puppy mills typically charge higher prices? The whole thing is sickening. I have to give credit to the OP for being able to walk away. That must've been very hard, but I believe it was the right thing to do.


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

ragtym said:


> Ya forgot the latest incarnation - goldenretrieverpuppies4u
> 
> BTW, they also have goldenretrieverpuppies4u2 - they just haven't started using it as much yet.


And don't forget Platinum Goldens......................

If it walks like a dove, talks like a dove and looks like a dove...... it probably is.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

sandyhp said:


> And don't forget Platinum Goldens......................
> 
> If it walks like a dove, talks like a dove and looks like a dove...... it probably is.


So there are six sites?


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> So there are six sites?


Yes: http://www.platinumgoldenretrievers.com/index.htm

"Owned" by the daughter. Doesn't do much advertising......mostly that a couple of the stud dogs are "owned" by Platinum GR and have a litter listed now and then.....

I would like nothing more than for the entire operation to be shut down, but I have my doubts..... I think they manage to be one step ahead....


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

sandyhp said:


> Yes: http://www.platinumgoldenretrievers.com/index.htm
> 
> "Owned" by the daughter. Doesn't do much advertising......mostly that a couple of the stud dogs are "owned" by Platinum GR and have a litter listed now and then.....
> 
> I would like nothing more than for the entire operation to be shut down, but I have my doubts..... I think they manage to be one step ahead....


The real issue is that puppy mills are often legal, so long as some very basic guidelines are followed. They can even maintain their AKC registration in some cases!


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> The real issue is that puppy mills are often legal, so long as some very basic guidelines are followed. They can even maintain their AKC registration in some cases!


Yet another reason I think the AKC and the CKC should insist on clearances on the parents before registering any puppies... :curtain:

Lana (who, for the record, appoligizes for being a bully, stuck up, picky or attacking anyone on any forum posts, not intended!)


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

mjf said:


> Oh my, how things can so easily get out of hand!! Like I have said over and over, I only wanted to *ASK* if it were ok if I mentioned the name of a bad breeder. Some forums do not want you to do this. A simple "yes it is ok" would have sufficed! I guess it is, so.... that is good to know. Thank you.
> 
> Also, had I known this breeder was "bad", I would have never even called him. _HE WAS RECOMMENDED TO ME_ by someone who was lucky enough to get a healthy dog from him. When I saw it was a puppy mill, I WALKED AWAY. I wish people would stop saying that "she went to a puppy mill" like I was totally irresponsible. Had I known, I would not have been there in the first place.
> 
> ...


 
Well done you! Dont hide away and I for one look forward to hearing your views.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Ugh, this breeder makes me sick. I'm so tired of reading about them, how is it that they're still operating?!?


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

kdmarsh said:


> Ugh, this breeder makes me sick. I'm so tired of reading about them, how is it that they're still operating?!?


That is the 64 million dollar question! I have been told that people in the area have been trying to get them shut down, but no such luck. I don't know exactly what it takes to shut a "kennel" down but I would guess it is no easy feat........I believe that as long as the dogs have food, water and shelter and the grounds are reasonably clean there would be no justification for shutting them down. 

The "powers that be" could give a rat's *&^^ about socialization, lack of clearances, genetic diseases, etc., etc. And since it operates under numerous names I am sure different dogs "belong" to different "names"...so they probably can't get them for having "too many dogs". Plus, the owner is a bully.

Enough said.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Maybe laws that are followed and followed through on? However, we do have those that shoot them ALL down rather than try to have some influence on the bills being written properly first! 

This won't go over very well. People do not like laws new or old.


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## Solas Goldens (Nov 10, 2007)

Hi... Please make a report immediately. You will be saving others from what you experienced,and you may be saving the dogs as well. I don't know what laws CA has, but in FL there are very specific rules that have to be followed when selling a dog, and there is a puppy lemon law that exists for the first year. I don't have pups often, but people are welcome to my home anytime and everything is always in order.Please make a report, it is those unscrupulous people that give us a bad name. Good Luck


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

I've seen this mentioned on several websites, I've found one quick link--Florida's Pet Lemon law is generally mentioned as being one of the toughest in the nation--this is from Consumer Affairs--any person who purchases a puppy should check the laws in their state, and if they are purchasing a pup from out of state, should also check the laws in that state as well, to see what rights they have. (IMHO)

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/pets/lemon_fl.html


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

sandyhp said:


> That is the 64 million dollar question! I have been told that people in the area have been trying to get them shut down, but no such luck. I don't know exactly what it takes to shut a "kennel" down but I would guess it is no easy feat........I believe that as long as the dogs have food, water and shelter and the grounds are reasonably clean there would be no justification for shutting them down.
> 
> The "powers that be" could give a rat's *&^^ about socialization, lack of clearances, genetic diseases, etc., etc. And since it operates under numerous names I am sure different dogs "belong" to different "names"...so they probably can't get them for having "too many dogs". Plus, the owner is a bully.
> 
> Enough said.


It's obvious there are still in business because people continue to buy from them. Why is that do you think?

I'll hazard a few quick guesses:
1. They have an abundant supply--and there is a demand.

No fuss--no muss. No waiting for a big-time hobby breeder to call you back, no being on a lengthy waiting list, no intensive screening to see if the breeder feels you would be a good match for the pup--it's instant success. You pay your $$$ and you get a pup. We are an instant society--trained if you will to think we can do anything right away, get anything right away and that nothing should take long. Want a pup for Christmas, your child's birthday, Valentine's Day--it's there waiting right for you--a Golden Retriever Supermarket.

2. You have the $$$$---they have the goods.

Again, no fuss--no muss. You gave up your last two pups because they couldn't be housetrained? No problem--you've got the cash, you still get a pup. No long questionnaire asking about your vet, your fence (or lack of it) or your background in dogs. You've got cash? You're a winner! You get a dog! You have two kids under the age of 5 (usually a deal breaker with many rescues and quite a few breeders)--you've got cash--you're a winner--you get a dog! Who cares how many young ones you have at home, and if you can handle both a pup and a couple of toddlers! You've got cash! And we have what you want!

How do we address issue #1? We really have to look at society as a whole--here in the US, we don't even like to wait at traffic lights. Issue #2 is a bit more complicated to me. It involves education--actually, they both do--and having responsible dog ownership be a part of our culture in the US.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

rappwizard said:


> It's obvious there are still in business because people continue to buy from them. Why is that do you think?
> 
> I'll hazard a few quick guesses:
> 1. They have an abundant supply--and there is a demand.
> ...


I don't have an answer to these questions, but I did want to say I think this is an incredibly intelligent post, capped by the incredibly apt and incredibly sad phrase, "Golden Retriever Supermarket."

I really do think a lot of the answer here is to shift our culture, rather than trying to craft top-down laws about breeders. Attempts to write legislation about socialization and screening have generally been a disaster.

Do we really want a situation in which we all have to take a training course in order to get a license to have a dog?

But the real question is how do we accomplish that public education and shift in values?


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> The real issue is that puppy mills are often legal, so long as some very basic guidelines are followed. They can even maintain their AKC registration in some cases!


I don't like the term "puppy mill."

When I subscribed to the AKC Gazette, at the very end of one issue, a breeder was honored who had recently passed away. He had a large estate outside of New York City--lots of property it seems--and he breed Borzoi's--or a similar breed. He had put his mark on the breed--was a leader in that breed from that article.

The article mentioned that at the highlight of his hobby, he had 50 or so dogs on his property--quite a large hobby.

I've heard the phrase "One person's puppy mill is another person's hobby breeder."

Now, was this a mill? Or the lavish hobby of someone who was incredibly wealthy (and the breeding of pure bred dogs was the hobby of the very rich until the rise of the middle class). Our own bred, the Golden Retriever, was developed in the United Kingdom by a Baron, Sir Majoribanks.

If someone sees a substandard operation, call it what it is--substandard.

I think that is why people get so suckered by these beautiful websites--they don't look like what is flashed before them when the term "puppy mill" appears. It's also why people see a dog, a bitch, and a litter of pups in someone's home and think it's a great set up--that's not a "puppy mill." But it is substandard? Clearances done? Health background checked? Were the sire and dam socialized? The term "puppy mill" (IMHO) is just a quick label that is so easy to throw around, instead of making people think about what they are seeing, and what they are buying.

The term "puppy mill" was allegedly coined in the mid-60's as a slang term for commercial breeding operations--it is now used by a variety of people to refer to a variety of breeding programs--and that includes hobby breeders. I don't believe it is a useful term.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think you're probably right that "puppy mill" means too many things to be a useful term in a debate about a particular breeder. I use it to describe a large-scale outfit in which profit is more important than the lives of the dogs. It has a real sense of an industrial, commercial enterprise for me.

So in this situation, these people are milling dogs: turning them out quickly for profit, and not taking too much time to worry about the quality of life of the animals housed on their property or sold to their customers. I'd call them millers, but the semantics aren't important.

What's important is that you can be really awful to your dogs and really irresponsible with their lives without breaking any laws. So as much as these individuals might violate the sense of the sacred bond between human and dog that draws people to a forum like this, they may be breaking no laws at all. Even if they are, they may only have to pay a fine and change a few things, not necessarily end operations.

The saddest thing of all is that these people aren't the worst thing out there, not by a long shot.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

rappwizard said:


> Now, was this a mill? Or the lavish hobby of someone who was incredibly wealthy (and the breeding of pure bred dogs was the hobby of the very rich until the rise of the middle class). Our own bred, the Golden Retriever, was developed in the United Kingdom by a Baron, Sir Majoribanks.


Ah, good ol' Lord Tweedmouth.

In a more direct answer to your question, the phrase "puppy mill" to me implies both size and an emphasis on profit. Tweedmouth (and the guy you're talking about too, it sounds like) bred dogs with a particular end in mind, and while there's little evidence I know of that tells us how he treated them, he clearly was trying to breed a strong hunting companion, not a money maker.

By the way, I have no problem with the fact that breeders might make money. More power to 'em. I don't see a problem in charging a lot for a desirable dog. My problem is when money takes priority over the health and happiness of the animals and the dogs suffer as a result. If you have a large staff and estate, you can probably take care of dozens of dogs very, very well, so I have no problem with it.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Found 2 more websites for WD:

http://www.goldenretrieverpuppiesinspace.com
http://www.goldenretrieverpuppies.tv


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

_Found 2 more websites for WD:

__http://www.goldenretrieverpuppiesinspace.com/_
_http://www.goldenretrieverpuppies.tv/_


Ah, geez, this just makes me sick!


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Guess who? http://goldenretrieverpuppiesbreeders.webs.com/


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