# Pet Store Puppies



## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

Her is a local store here in Maine that sells puppies:
Pawsitively Pets

Take a look and tell me what you think. Personally, it is very upseting for me to see this, and I wonder where these puppies come from.... Thoughts?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

My Tiny is from a pet store. They get their puppies from puppy mills in nearby states. It is very, very sad.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

$925.00 for a lab/golden mix


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

Puppy stores make me so sad... this is one that is in my city right now. They get A LOT of business from people... My clinic see's a lot of these puppies and they do have a lot of issues, mainly depending on the breed.

What is even worse is that they charge the same or often times MORE that it would be to get a puppy from a reputable breeder. Plus, they have a lot of the mixed breeds...

Home


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## MyMaggieGirl (Nov 12, 2008)

I love their big "we do not support puppy mills" proclamation.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> My Tiny is from a pet store. They get their puppies from puppy mills in nearby states. It is very, very sad.


I think our very first golden, Jake was from the same pet store you got your Tiny from. Yes, I agree, very very sad. Our Jake was a good dog, but died too soon from brain cancer at 8.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

My King was from a Pet Store.
My Rowdy was from a Pet Store.
My Casey is from a Pet Store.

King died at 14 1/2
Rowdy died at 12 1/2 from pneumonia following surgery
Casey is heading on 11 still running agility

All different Pet Stores, all different birth states.

ETA: I have spoken with both King & Rowdy's breeders. They are real people. 
And when looking for both Rowdy & Casey, I spoke with & even put down deposits with well known breeders, but ... BTW: each of my dogs has a complicated story as to how they came into my life .. 2 (Rowdy & Casey) of whom came from Pet Stores which I did not even know existed so they were not spur of the moment decisions.

I probably know enough breeders at this point, who like & admire me & my dogs, that I would never need to buy from a Pet Store again, but even my youngest 2 had stories (who came from good breeders) and things just lining up for them to come home with me when I was not actively looking - in fact I was resisting


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

puppy mills or more likely puppy brokers (there is a HVB in Maine that brags about having contracts to produce puppies) or even local backyard breeders....
Either way....buy low...sell high...and if 'the stock' doesnt move off the shelf quickly ...dump it..


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Ha a lab golden mix for 925 dollars???? You can get one of those from the shelter for under 50. That is such a joke.


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

I think the reason these pet stores work is because people decide they want a puppy one day, don't realize how big a commitment it really is and the health concerns involved, and they want it TODAY....so off to the pet store they go.

It's a sad sistuation but as long as there's a market they'll continue to be around.

Pete


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Our new pet store is a shame.. We have a new client who got one, they just looked into the "breeder" that the pup came from..well lo and behold, the address is not even a real address and the breeder named hasn't bred these type of pups in 14 yrs! I'm so angry over it because they are touting that they get these pups from "local" breeders..yet this one said it came from Missouri! They even gave conflicting stories to the owner once he found out.. Now owner is worried may not be the age, gotten vaccines..we had told him prob came from puppy mill. 

Anyone know what can be done? The stinky thing is our little local paper wrote a story about them in a "good light". http://http://www.doverpost.com/news/x890863190/Wild-Side-Exotic-Pets-opens-on-Loockerman-Street

That whole story just makes my blood boil!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Well... one of our technicians bought a dog from them... I reamed her out when she called to borrow a crate... which was very insensitive of me as she had already purchased the dog. But you know how it goes... the dog was on sale.... She knew better as she bought a GR from me 9.5 years ago, never mind working where she's working. And one of her friends just bought a GR from a pet store(he bought a dog from me 7.5 years ago, says it's the best dog he ever had) and apparently not only is the puppy physically unattractive, but it's a handful. Again, did he call me when he wanted another dog?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

One of my client's daughters noted about a year ago or so that they were selling an aussie pup from merle to merle parents..a huge no no. It had all the obvious eye issues including a pupil not centered in the eye. She wrote them a letter to complain. and does anyone know what a Victorian bulldog is?? It was explained to me that it is like an English bulldog with longer legs...


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

I can't even begin to comprehend why anyone would purchase a pup from a pet store-there have been so many reports and campaigns about and against Pet Stores selling pups and the fact that these pups come from Puppy Mills. 

I don't even patronize any stores that sell puppies. The ASPCA has a big campaign about Puppy Mills, visit their website if you want additional information. 

ASPCA | What Is a Puppy Mill

Here's a link to NO TO PET STORE PUPPIES-

Nopetstorepuppies.com | A campaign by the ASPCA

Last year sometime the ASPCA was asking members to provide the name of stores in their area that sold puppies-there are several in my area. The ASPCA was compiling a list of stores in cities across the US. 

My Roxy is a former puppy mill momma that I adopted through CFGRR. She had been abused both physically and verbally, and was in horrible physical condition when she came into the Rescue. Very long story for my girl who had a very long journey to get where she is today.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Sunrise said:


> My King was from a Pet Store.
> My Rowdy was from a Pet Store.
> My Casey is from a Pet Store.
> 
> ...


You got more life out of your pet store kids than what I got out of reputable breeders, _which_ are not immune to health issues as some lead to believe.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks.

I am sure there are many others who have PetStore dogs, but are afraid to post. It is kind of like admitting a big dirty secret.

I wish there were enough reputable breeders to take care of everyone who wanted a pup, and enough breeders willing to give folks a chance (unknown obedience/agility handlers for example), and I wish our dogs would all be happy and free of genetic diseases.

But it that likely to become a reality? 

I loved my King. I loved my Rowdy. I love my Casey. I get angry at people who say they should never have existed. Rant over 



Wyatt's mommy said:


> You got more life out of your pet store kids than what I got out of reputable breeders, _which_ are not immune to health issues as some lead to believe.


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> You got more life out of your pet store kids than what I got out of reputable breeders, _which_ are not immune to health issues as some lead to believe.


Thank you for saying what I was thinking. 

This whole thing of pet store/byb/mills puppies having more health issues than from breeders confused me especially hearing many of the stories on here with health issues of puppies coming from breeders. 

I don't believe Pet Stores should be able to sell puppies if they can't back up where they are getting these pets to sell.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Sunrise said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I am sure there are many others who have PetStore dogs, but are afraid to post. It is kind of like admitting a big dirty secret.
> 
> ...


:You_Rock_


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

Sunrise said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I am sure there are many others who have PetStore dogs, but are afraid to post. It is kind of like admitting a big dirty secret.
> 
> ...


I loved my Jake too. And I loved my Rusty, who was from a BYB, and who lived till he was 12 1/2. I guess shame on me for buying him too. You said everything I was thinking, but kind of afraid to say. Thank you.


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## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

I forgot to mention that I was having a talk with a few co-workers who are uneducated about pet store puppies. They say "well someone is going to buy them anyways" They just did not get it. The one co-worker who got her dog from there said that they never had a contract for getting the puppies fix. The cycle just will go on. I asked if she knew anything about the parents, got a pedigree, or any clearances, and her answer was "no but I got papers". I asked her to bring the papers in next week. That should be fun. 

I hate how they advertise the dogs as merchandise. You can buy them online, do a monthly pay for so much a month. It disgusts me. And yes, the "we do not support puppy mills" sign is ridiculous. If there was an investigation done, and the truth reveled, they could get in big trouble. My co-worker who bought her dog there did say that. "They have a sign that says they don't come from puppy mills". Well I guess we can believe anything anyone tells us.

Rainheart, that store makes me so sad to look at.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Not everyone who makes a spur of the moment decision to get a puppy lives to regret it, either. Not everyone who makes that spur of the moment decision mistreats the dog or dumps it. Max was an "I want a puppy!" and "oh, look, there's an ad for Golden Retrievers!" spur of the moment purchase. I had no idea what I was getting into, but I defy you to find a dog who is more loved that my Monster Boy.


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## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> Well... one of our technicians bought a dog from them... I reamed her out when she called to borrow a crate... which was very insensitive of me as she had already purchased the dog. But you know how it goes... the dog was on sale.... She knew better as she bought a GR from me 9.5 years ago, never mind working where she's working. And one of her friends just bought a GR from a pet store(he bought a dog from me 7.5 years ago, says it's the best dog he ever had) and apparently not only is the puppy physically unattractive, but it's a handful. Again, did he call me when he wanted another dog?


That is a horrible feeling you must of gotten from them.


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## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> One of my client's daughters noted about a year ago or so that they were selling an aussie pup from merle to merle parents..a huge no no. It had all the obvious eye issues including a pupil not centered in the eye. She wrote them a letter to complain. and does anyone know what a Victorian bulldog is?? It was explained to me that it is like an English bulldog with longer legs...


And people would buy those puppies, because they are "cute".


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Wyatt's from a byb.........oh the shame! Met both parents who are both from reputable breeders who are from champion lines and have been cleared of all hips, heart....etc. Wyatt has no papers, I don't intend to breed him, don't care if he is registered and I love him no less or more than my AKC kids. Took a different route this time as it was _proven to me_ it couldn't hurt. Afterall my neighbors 2 mutts who never came close to being taken care of like our boys, never exercised etc......lived to both be 16. As I am sure alot of the vets _here _have seen this thru their many years in practice. 
And I know many have had wonderful long healthy AKC dogs from wonderful reputable breeders....however _the reality_ _is _there are no guarantee's of a perfect healthy dog no matter where he is from as I have experienced this myself.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

My 1st dog was from humane society, she had lots of behavior issues but overall was a great dog and lived to be 16. I have gotten dog from ,rescued or Byb too, never from a pet store, but to me doing your homework and getting that well bred dog may save you from heartaches down the road. The chances are greater for that to happen. 

My shih tzu was a rescue at work because the people wanted their kids to witness a birth and to keep a pup. Well the pup they were suppose to keep ended up with lots of problems (couldnt walk) and they were set to put him down. I took him on and got him care with a dog chiropractor and was able to walk again..but he also had a bleeding disorder and 2 retained testicles, which ended costing him his life because due the bleeding issues we couldn't risk surgery and they turned into huge cancerous tumours. He was only 5 when I had to make that decision. 
My 1st golden girl was from a Byb..she died from bone cancer at 10 and had thyroid issues and skin problems. My boxer came from a Byb in a sense but had health tests done on parents and he has been pretty good in his life. Getting a little senile now. 
My hubby wanted a jrt and when I was looking for one I wanted to buy from a reputable breeder but found out we couldn't afford that..so went with a breeder who not horrible but also another Byb and he has leg issues, not life altering but conformationally horrible and not breed standard. All of the had been raised with families inside and no where near a puppy mill. 
Lilly is my 1st pup from a hobby breeder who did all the clearances, her parents have great pedigrees with health clearances behind them, lots of generations back too. She is an awesome dog so far, and frankly I'm not stressed about what may lay ahead because of knowing her background. For that peace of mind, I waited 8 mos to get her. If you are determined to get a certain breed, there is a reputable breeder out there for anyone who makes the effort to get such a well bred dog. I don't buy the excuse of there isn't enough reputable breeders for everyone. Some people adopt from shelters and rescues not caring what breed, some get from Byb..and all these have the risks and I would hope that someone whi goes this route they are realistic about it. 
Having a dog in your life, no matter where you get them from, is great and I don't look "down" on that relationship. Just know the risks are there..but my stance on puppy mills are and will always be that they are horrible places..having witness them in person and the pups who come from them..there are no excuses for the treatment of those dogs!


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

Once you have a dog, no matter where it came from, you can't help but fall in love with it. I think it's be shown that pet store dogs are far more likely to develope health issues than dogs that come from responsible breeders. That's not to say that the health issues are completely illinminated but certainly they are decreased.

My point of view is the responsible breeder is looking out for the dog. The pet store is looking for the sale. I also think it's fair to say the pet store customer hasn't given the amount of thought to getting their dog as have the breeder's customer. And I would bet big money that the number of dogs given up to shelters & rescue centers is markedly higher amoung pet store dogs verses breeder dogs.

I think if you look at the whole picture you can't help but come up with these conclusions.

My dog could have very well come from a pet store...I have no idea, he was a rescue. I love him to pieces and I hope he lives to be 15 or 16 but I'd never buy a dog from a pet store.

Pete


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

We all love our dogs regardless of where they came from. My Tiny, as I said, is from a pet store. She's going to be 15 in March and has never been sick a day in her life. But she does NOT have the *proper* golden temperament. My Toby was from a BYB, and had a great temperament but not the greatest health. He lived to a few weeks short of 14. No dogs are more loved, regardless of where they came from.
The problem I have is with the people breeding the dogs and selling them to pet stores, not with the dogs. They clearly don't care about the dogs, or where they end up. They care only about the money. I suspect the dogs we are all talking about here that came from pet stores ended up in great homes. But that's not always the case, because no one screens the buyers to be sure the puppy fits in the home. I've been told, not sure if it's true, that a huge proportion of rescue dogs are from pet stores, not breeders.
Wyatt's mom, it sounds to me like your pup is from a hobby breeder, not a BYB. There's a big difference.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

I don't think anybody here is snobbing their noses at pet store puppies and saying "they should have never been born". Any of us would love a pup/dog we get, no matter where they come from. Many of us have shelter animals or took in strays. We don't know where they came from but we love them anyway. The point is I think, that by buying pups from pet stores, we encourage puppy mill breeders and other bad breeders to keep breeding and selling to pet stores and they and the stores make big money. Yes, not all pet store pups have health issues und not all pups from reputable breeders are healthy.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> The problem I have is with the people breeding the dogs and selling them to pet stores, not with the dogs. They clearly don't care about the dogs, or where they end up. They care only about the money.


That's how I feel. 




> My dog could have very well come from a pet store...I have no idea, he was a rescue. I love him to pieces and I hope he lives to be 15 or 16 but I'd never buy a dog from a pet store.


Same here--mine were from a municipal shelter and rescues from a golden rescue. I have no clue how the shelter dog (died at 13 1/2) or the older rescue (died at 12 yrs 11 mos) started their lives, but I love(d) them, and Toby, to the moon and back and then some.  Our shelter puppy was an impulse adoption--the best $3 we EVER spent!


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## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

Most good breeders take dogs back, so there is no way they could end up in rescue. So it does make sense that a lot of rescues come from mystery breeding. I agree with the last couple posts. Dogs are dogs, we love them no matter what. There are no guarantees with any dog. However, I do not think anyone would want to support those people out there who see dogs as money.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Ask for copies of the pups pedigree before handing over your visa card!
Then do the same due diligence you would if you were buying from a conscientious breeder.... If they are not from puppymills then it seems that it would not be a big deal for them to provide their "papers".

Seriously ...if the puppies were raised in the kitchen of some local mom & pop backyard breeder....then Mom & Pop would put an ad in the local paper & sell them direct to the public...and pocket the money! That is UNLESS mom and pop are under contract to supply "X" number of puppies and are selling to the store(s) in such volume that they can afford to sell them for less...and if that is the case...you can bet they are not raised in the kitchen...they are raised in a garage or barn or basement...




OnMyWay2MyDreams said:


> Anyone know what can be done? [/URL]
> 
> That whole story just makes my blood boil!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I don't understand where people are getting the idea that others think that pet store puppies or byb puppies are less worthy of love than puppies from reputable breeders. I don't see anyone here saying that. Matter of fact, both of my goldens were byb produced and couldn't be more loved. They just happened to end up in shelters as puppies, both with health issues due to being bred by bybs who didn't give two hoots about them. They were more interested in making the almighty dollar.

What most of us are saying is that the people who sell to pet stores are hvbs or puppymills who neglect and abuse the parents of these cute little puppies. Every time you line their pockets by buying puppies from a pet store, you doom another dog to the same abuse and neglect. I know that none of us here could even imagine contributing to that type of treatment when it comes to any dog, especially the sensitive golden retriever. 

Bybs might be better than hvbs and puppymills, but they are breeding to make money, not to better the breed. There are plenty of good breeders out there, there's no shortage if you are willing to wait and not buy a puppy as soon as possible.

Thank goodness the pet stores in my city are not allowed to sell dogs/puppies or cats/kittens.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Somebody was mentioning a lab mix at a pet store for over 900 dollars? My lab mix Thunder,pic below, from a kill shelter in KY 19.95, lol. He was 10 months old and his time was up. He is going to be 11 years old in March and he is such a sweetheart, never regretted saving him.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Pet store puppies are not any less worthy as pets... it's where they come from, how their parents are housed, how they are raised etc. So if you buy one from a pet store, you are not rescuing that pup, you are ensuring a future miserable life of the parents to produce the demand that selling the pup created.


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

Ugh. Everything else I would say has been said by others. I can't get over the prices...can't believe people walk into a pet store and shell out those prices....


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I can't believe that a 1/2 lab 1/2 golden sells for slightly less than my Ch Sired,Can Ch dam pups with parents with clearances, etc, etc....


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Phillyfisher said:


> Ugh. Everything else I would say has been said by others. I can't get over the prices...can't believe people walk into a pet store and shell out those prices....


What's even more surprising is how little the pet stores buy these puppies for. The markup is astronomical.


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## natali861 (Dec 22, 2011)

Wow we adopted Aspen from a shelter for $37.50!! He was "half price" because it was a weekend. What a steal!


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## Nyahsmommy (Jul 23, 2011)

Luckily it is now illegal to sell pets (cats/dogs) in a pet store... other than rescue groups, which is how I got my two cats. I also would never buy from a pet store. A year ago when we were thinking about getting a golden we were looking at pet stores and they were selling 6 month old puppies who barely fit in the cage for $1200... no papers/health records, etc. That being said, I don't agree that reputable breeders produce healthier/longer living puppies. I have read several storied on here about goldens from top breeders getting sick/being put down at a few years of age or even very sick as a puppy.

Nyah was an oops puppy from Kijiji. So far she has had 0 health problems, excellent temperment. etc. I have met both the parents, although I didn't see any papers and there wasn't clearances as it was an accident (who knows for sure). The point is, I tried to go with a proper breeder and they were awful... rude, didn't care about me being interested in a puppy, etc. I wouldn't trade Nyah for the world.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Nyahsmommy, you make a good point. I sold a pup to a client, who had actually looked elsewhere with breeders, who found that their stipulations and demeanor where just too intimidating... We have to be careful how we present ourselves...


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## fudgedog (Feb 13, 2011)

I just think people need to understand when they pay top dollar at the pet store some poor dog is in a small little cage not going home with you. They are stuck in a pen or cage pumping out more puppies to keep up with the demand.


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## Jakemyboy (Jan 4, 2012)

Well let me just say that we bought Jake from a Pet Store....but here in Okinawa they are a little different. I am not saying that there are not puppy mills....because I am almost positive that they come from them up in Mainland. I am not a supporter of pet stores...but we do not have the option to purchase from a breeder over here  Besides I went in that store and literally could not walk out of there and leave him in that cage. God willing he will be a healthy puppy...it is a chance I took though. He is my baby boy...and I am so happy we decided to get him. I do understand the concern though.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Exactly!! I love the breeders I now work with, but the stipulations that were demanded of me before were crazy and not possible for a working person. 

Rude, uncaring and just wanting the money were the experiences that I had 10-20 years ago. And those deposits I mentioned? 2 breeders never even had the courtesy to let me know the breedings did not take - and these were (and are) big name breeders.

Another breeder even said she only sold to stay at home families since house breaking took 6 months ... hello .. I asked why she was breeding such stupid dogs????????? Another would not sell to me since I had another dog and they were concerned my other dog would roll over in his sleep and kill the pup .. again .. hello??

As I mentioned, I love the breeders whose dogs I now have, and know other breeders whose dogs I would welcome into my home, but do not think that it is always possible to work with breeders or that your pup will be healthy.



Sally's Mom said:


> Nyahsmommy, you make a good point. I sold a pup to a client, who had actually looked elsewhere with breeders, who found that their stipulations and demeanor where just too intimidating... We have to be careful how we present ourselves...


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

You know, that is certainly true for puppy mills. But not so true for all brokered dogs. 

Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not a fan of puppy mills and think some, if not most, treat their dogs terribly and should be shut down. 

But, not all puppies in PetStores were born in a wire cage, never to step on ground until they are sold to some unwitting person who pulled out their VISA card. 

And to put the blame on the people wanting to share their life with a puppy? I think we need to rethink that. If the demand for puppies was being met by caring and fair breeders, there would be no Puppy Mills. 



fudgedog said:


> I just think people need to understand when they pay top dollar at the pet store some poor dog is in a small little cage not going home with you. They are stuck in a pen or cage pumping out more puppies to keep up with the demand.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Sunrise said:


> Another breeder even said she only sold to stay at home families since house breaking took 6 months ... hello .. I asked why she was breeding such stupid dogs????????? Another would not sell to me since I had another dog and they were concerned my other dog would roll over in his sleep and kill the pup .. again .. hello??


 I want what they are smoking! Thanks for the morning chuckle!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Sunrise, I don't know about that... I look at the paperwork from these pet stores. Frequently, it is the same broker's name over and over. The parents usually have random names and not AKC registrations. I find it hard to believe that a caring breeder would offer their pups to a broker to sell. One of the local pet stores, now out of business, used to include a picture of the kennel where the dogs were bred. I remember seeing three long buildings in a row with runs on both sides. Ok, not wire crates, but I would call it a mill...


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

Our daughter/SIL bought a pet store puppy :doh: once (they felt sorry for it- which I can understand ). They paid $625. for a poodle/beagle-X.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

The HVB that I know that supplies puppies through brokers whelps her puppies inside...dogs are generally clean and in clean indoor outdoor runs..BUT make no mistake they are treated as livestock...their purpose and function is to provide and income stream for the family. There are no romps thorough fields, swimming at camp, trips to the ice cream shop, walks through the neighborhood, or drives to the bank to get a dog biscuit.... 

HVB dont spend thousands training their dogs...enjoying puppy classes with their next generation of hopefuls...evenings looking at pedigrees for potential sires for their favorite bitch...they dont spend their weekends planning trips around what activities they can enjoy with their dogs...finding shows, looking for new equipment or arranging training time or planning for their next meeting of the local breed/obed/hunt clubs...

HVB can safely remain emotionally detached from the puppies they produce and sell through brokers to pet stores...they don't spend hours interviewing puppy buyers...they dont spend hours verifying references....they dont have to look someone in the eye and promise to take a pup back at anytime for any reason. 
Certainly the pet stores that buy thier puppies don't do any of the above....they just need your Visa card to read "APPROVED" when swiped through the reader!

So what happens to those puppies when folks, that would have been weeded out in a reputable breeders interview process, decide that their now out of control, shedding, nippy, counter-surfing dog, that wont listen to them, must go now?? Those dogs end up in rescues (if they are lucky) or euthanized in shelters if not so lucky....

There is a consequence....even if the puppies are not born in wire crates.


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Got to say that I'm surprised by some of the responses in this thread.

I totally understand the impulse to "rescue" that pup out of the small cage at the shop but at what cost? I would know that while I am enjoying my pup his or her mother is living a very different life - a horrible one. Can't do it.

If people are really intent on getting a puppy they should check out their local shelters. They'll get a pup with a sketchy background or an interesting mix for far, far less and these pups want a loving home too.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

You are right about the returned pups. My Towhee was returned to her breeder for being too much dog. She was placed in a home that was not correct for her and rather than learn how to train her, she was returned. Her breeder gladly accepted her back as she does with all of her dogs.

But what about the tens of thousands (possibly millions) of dogs who live out long lived lives after being purchased from a Pet Store because their owners did not know about breeders, did not stick it out for possibly years of weeding through to find a breeder who would take a risk on them, but wanted a dog they could love & take care of?

Breeders have every right to be picky about where their pups are placed, but for every potential owner they turn down, they are most likely contributing to a Pet Stores income. If someone wants a puppy badly enough to gather the information about breeders to approach, they are ready for a puppy within a certain time frame - a year, a month whatever.

I have had many rescues in my life, I have bought dogs from Pet Stores and I have bought from breeders. I do know I will always have dogs in my life. My dogs will always be trained, well mannered, hiked, beloved companions. But honestly, I gave up on getting dogs from breeders until 3rd parties or breeders started approaching me. 

Again, I am not advocating for Puppy Mills or for Pet Stores, but _if we want them to stop it will take more than closing them down - new ones will just pop up in their place if the underlying supply problems are not addressed.
_ 
BTW: I would never, ever, bring my dogs to an ice-cream shop  Bad for their health and teeth. They do get dog biscuits from the bank though :wave:

ETA: So, how would you go about addressing the supply problem? And please do not suggest go to your local shelter because in my area almost all the dogs in the shelters are listed a pit bull/lab mixes and goldens are the breed I adore. And wouldn't that be encouraging people to let their dogs roam & mate with whomever they wanted since the dogs can be given to a shelter?




LibertyME said:


> The HVB that I know that supplies puppies through brokers whelps her puppies inside...dogs are generally clean and in clean indoor outdoor runs..BUT make no mistake they are treated as livestock...their purpose and function is to provide and income stream for the family. There are no romps thorough fields, swimming at camp, trips to the ice cream shop, walks through the neighborhood, or drives to the bank to get a dog biscuit....
> 
> HVB dont spend thousands training their dogs...enjoying puppy classes with their next generation of hopefuls...evenings looking at pedigrees for potential sires for their favorite bitch...they dont spend their weekends planning trips around what activities they can enjoy with their dogs...finding shows, looking for new equipment or arranging training time or planning for their next meeting of the local breed/obed/hunt clubs...
> 
> ...


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Sally's Mom said:


> Pet store puppies are not any less worthy as pets... it's where they come from, how their parents are housed, how they are raised etc. So if you buy one from a pet store, you are not rescuing that pup, you are ensuring a future miserable life of the parents to produce the demand that selling the pup created.


The pups are the innocent victims, all of them are deserving of great loving homes, as Sally's Mom has said above. If people continue to purchase Pet Store puppies, Puppy Mills will continue to produce/breed dogs for a profit and the adult breeder dogs will continue to be neglected and abused. 

The adult breeder dogs have a very miserable life. They are not socilalized, do not receive proper Vet care, are not feed properly, are not given any love or affection. They spend their entire life housed in a cage that is so small they can not stand up and can barely turn around. They are never let out to get exercise, their feet never touch grass. 

My Roxy is a former puppy mill momma-she had been turned into a high kill shelter by the breeder because she wouldn't breed anymore. CFGRR pulled her from the shelter and gave her a thorough exam. She was HW positive-Stage 3, she was in very poor health overall. She had been abused both physically and verbally-she was not socialized, she was terrified of people, other dogs, sounds, being touched-basically everything and everyone. She had never been out of a cage, never touched the ground or pavement, was afraid to ride in a car, be in a house, etc. 

When she was spayed, the Vet found that she had been given a C section which she felt the owner had done themselves. Roxy's ovaries and uterus were so infected. Her canines are broken off from chewing on the cage, she apparently had not been fed very well-it took several months before I got her to stop eating her own stools. 

It was months before Roxy began trusting us and felt safe before we could make a break through with her. The first week she was with us, she hid in the bathroom behind the toilet and wouldn't come out. My husband picked her up several times during the day and carried her outside to use the bathroom. 

I did a Foster to Adopt of Roxy through CFGRR while she underwent HW treatments for four months. Once she completed her treatments and was cleared medically, I adopted her. It has been a very long journey that has taken a lot of love, time and patience to get her where she is today. She will never be 100% as she doesn't trust anyone she doesn't know. She does warm up to new people, but it has to be on her terms.

I am against Puppy Mills because of what the adult dogs suffer.


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## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

Roxy's story is horrifying. Poor girl. Thank you for sharing it, and for rescuing her. I am happy to hear she is able to enjoy life and be loved now.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> The pups are the innocent victims, all of them are deserving of great loving homes, as Sally's Mom has said above. If people continue to purchase Pet Store puppies, Puppy Mills will continue to produce/breed dogs for a profit and the adult breeder dogs will continue to be neglected and abused.
> 
> The adult breeder dogs have a very miserable life. They are not socilalized, do not receive proper Vet care, are not feed properly, are not given any love or affection. They spend their entire life housed in a cage that is so small they can not stand up and can barely turn around. They are never let out to get exercise, their feet never touch grass.
> 
> ...


While Roxy's story is rags to riches story (and I applaud you for taking her in and giving her a better life) there are millions that are being treated just as her and they have never even been in a puppy mill. Heck my neighbors dogs have never been socialized, walked, trained...etc. 
I wish we could save all these abused neglected pups......only if we lived in a perfect world. At least some of these pet store doggies get good homes......
And I'm not buying that the majority of goldens turned over or abandened are from pet stores and backyard breeders. We have been approached by 3 different families from word of mouth and asked if we could take their goldens because of our experience with goldens. All three have come from reputable breeders.
I'm not advocating purchasing from a pet store, but people do and alot of them live a normal healthy life....


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My contract states that the dog must be returned to me. In both situations, the owners contacted me and I re homed the dogs. GameBoy on this forum has one!!! So it would be a breach of my contract to do anything else.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> My contract states that the dog must be returned to me. In both situations, the owners contacted me and I re homed the dogs. GameBoy on this forum has one!!! So it would be a breach of my contract to do anything else.


Have you ever had adult dogs returned?


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> And I'm not buying that the majority of goldens turned over or abandened are from pet stores and backyard breeders. We have been approached by 3 different families from word of mouth and asked if we could take their goldens because of our experience with goldens. All three have come from reputable breeders.
> I'm not advocating purchasing from a pet store, but people do and alot of them live a normal healthy life....


Addressing your first statement: Either those dogs were NOT from reputable breeders or the owners were in violation of the contract. A truly reputable breeder has it in their contract that if for any reason the buyers are unable to keep the puppy/dog, they are to be returned to the breeder. So either the puppies were purchased from less than reputable breeders or the buyers ignored the contract.

Addressing your last sentence: Yes, I am absolutely sure that many pet store puppies lead a normal (though most of them not healthy) life with people who love them. That's not the issue that we have been discussing here. We've been discussing the fact that even if those puppies live normal lives, the dogs who produced them are living lives in cages producing litter after litter until they can't produce anymore. Then they are euthanize or, if they are lucky, dumped at the shelter. Dumped like trash after being used up. 

I can't see how anyone can actually condone buying from a pet store, especially when they are fully aware of where the majority of the puppies come from. I can't believe anyone could be so cruel as to help continue the cycle once they know what happens behind the scenes. I'd like to have more faith in people...


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

fostermom said:


> I can't see how anyone can actually condone buying from a pet store, especially when they are fully aware of where the majority of the puppies come from. I can't believe anyone could be so cruel as to help continue the cycle once they know what happens behind the scenes. I'd like to have more faith in people...


....and the further heartache is if these poor puppies age out of the store, their future is also very uncertain. http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retrievers-main-discussion/108379-ever-wonder-what-happens-pet-store-dogs-if-not-purchased.html

We really need states and the Agriculture Dept to step up enforcement against these puppy mills and high volume breeders so that the pet stores will not have an "inventory" of "product" to sell. We need to attack the problem from both sides.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Dallas Gold said:


> We really need states and the Agriculture Dept to step up enforcement against these puppy mills and high volume breeders so that the pet stores will not have an "inventory" of "product" to sell.


If there are no more mills or HVBs, (which would be wonderful), there will still be puppies in pet stores as long as there is a market for them. I've known store owners that will call ads in the paper and buy the whole litter. A few people, (very few), won't sell to them, but most will. When they get that check in their hands, they will usually do it, (breed), again. And so it begins again. :no: We need to *QUIT BUYING ANY PUPPY OR KITTEN FROM PET STORES!* Period! That is the only way to stop it. There will always be "inventory" for these scum stores, but if there are no buyers, it will stop.

Don't buy anything from these stores. Nothing! Don't even walk through their doors. As long as they have puppies/kittens for sale stay away. If they don't have money in their pockets they can't line the pockets of their suppliers. Really quite simple...


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

fostermom said:


> Addressing your first statement: Either those dogs were NOT from reputable breeders or the owners were in violation of the contract. A truly reputable breeder has it in their contract that if for any reason the buyers are unable to keep the puppy/dog, they are to be returned to the breeder. So either the puppies were purchased from less than reputable breeders or the buyers ignored the contract.
> 
> Addressing your last sentence: Yes, I am absolutely sure that many pet store puppies lead a normal (though most of them not healthy) life with people who love them. That's not the issue that we have been discussing here. We've been discussing the fact that even if those puppies live normal lives, the dogs who produced them are living lives in cages producing litter after litter until they can't produce anymore. Then they are euthanize or, if they are lucky, dumped at the shelter. Dumped like trash after being used up.
> 
> I can't see how anyone can actually condone buying from a pet store, especially when they are fully aware of where the majority of the puppies come from. I can't believe anyone could be so cruel as to help continue the cycle once they know what happens behind the scenes. I'd like to have more faith in people...


Thanks for addressing my statement because you just further proved my point I don't know if it was in their contract, if there is a time limit on the contract (one came from out of the country) nor do I know if the owner violated the contract.....all I know is they needed to surrender their dogs because of life issues and this is the route they took. One went to a friend and the other 2 went to rescues....so it just doesn't happen to pet store pups or byb's.

Nobody can factually say that most pet store pups live "unhealthy" lives....nobody....I am not condoning anything. Just looking at it thru a different perspective. For what it's worth I have never purchased from a pet store. But I don't judge people that do.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

fostermom said:


> Addressing your first statement: Either those dogs were NOT from reputable breeders or the owners were in violation of the contract. A truly reputable breeder has it in their contract that if for any reason the buyers are unable to keep the puppy/dog, they are to be returned to the breeder. So either the puppies were purchased from less than reputable breeders or the buyers ignored the contract.
> 
> Addressing your last sentence: Yes, I am absolutely sure that many pet store puppies lead a normal (though most of them not healthy) life with people who love them. That's not the issue that we have been discussing here. We've been discussing the fact that even if those puppies live normal lives, the dogs who produced them are living lives in cages producing litter after litter until they can't produce anymore. Then they are euthanize or, if they are lucky, dumped at the shelter. Dumped like trash after being used up.
> 
> I can't see how anyone can actually condone buying from a pet store, especially when they are fully aware of where the majority of the puppies come from. I can't believe anyone could be so cruel as to help continue the cycle once they know what happens behind the scenes. I'd like to have more faith in people...


 
_*Breeder dogs are normally considered Livestock, when they can no longer produce puppies, they are normally shot. *_

My Roxy was lucky, she was turned into a High Kill Shelter instead and thanks to the Golden Rescue Group I adopted her through, she now has a life. 

I knew exactly what I was getting into when I adopted her, if I hadn't, it may have taken her quite awhile before she found a home because of the state and physcial condition she was in.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Nobody can factually say that most pet store pups live "unhealthy" lives....nobody....I am not condoning anything. Just looking at it thru a different perspective. For what it's worth I have never purchased from a pet store. But I don't judge people that do.


My argument has nothing to do with the health of the puppies lives as much as it has to do with the unhealthy lives that the _parents of these puppies_ are *forced* to endure. By purchasing from these stores, their lives are condemned to living in filth, no vet care, no temperature control, living in cages their whole lives and on and on and on...

And as far as your comments about "there are millions that are being treated just as her and they have never even been in a puppy mill. Heck my neighbors dogs have never been socialized, walked, trained...etc." Well, I wouldn't buy puppies from them either...


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> My argument has nothing to do with the health of the puppies lives as much as it has to do with the unhealthy lives that the _parents of these puppies_ are *forced* to endure. By purchasing from these stores, their lives are condemned to living in filth, no vet care, no temperature control, living in cages their whole lives and on and on and on...
> 
> And as far as your comments about "there are millions that are being treated just as her and they have never even been in a puppy mill. Heck my neighbors dogs have never been socialized, walked, trained...etc." Well, I wouldn't buy puppies from them either...


I get it. And my comment was _to the person_ saying that "most" of those puppies live unhealthy live. My neighbors are not breeders. I just used them as an example that many dogs are neglected in this unperfect world regardless of where they come from.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

kwhit said:


> My argument has nothing to do with the health of the puppies lives as much as it has to do with the unhealthy lives that the _parents of these puppies_ are *forced* to endure. By purchasing from these stores, their lives are condemned to living in filth, no vet care, no temperature control, living in cages their whole lives and on and on and on...
> 
> And as far as your comments about "there are millions that are being treated just as her and they have never even been in a puppy mill. Heck my neighbors dogs have never been socialized, walked, trained...etc." Well, I wouldn't buy puppies from them either...


_*The puppies are innocent victims*_, they all deserve homes where they will be loved and cared for and have happy healthy long lives. 

_*Breeder dogs suffer miserably-if you've never watched a Video about Puppy Mills on the ASPCA's website, I recommend that you do. It's an eye opener to say the least.*_

I do not support Pet Stores that sell puppies and one way to help stop the operation of puppy mills is by not buying Pet Store pups. Buying puppies from a pet store only creates a demand for them which will keep the Puppy mills in operation.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> My neighbors are not breeders. I just used them as an example that many dogs are neglected in this unperfect world regardless of where they come from.


Uh, yeah...I got that...


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> _*The puppies are innocent victims*_, they all deserve homes where they will be loved and cared for and have happy healthy long lives.


Of course they do...and that's what makes it so very sad to me, but I still would never buy one.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

kwhit said:


> Of course they do...but I still would never buy one.


I wouldn't either-by purchasing a pet store puppy, you are supporting the puppy mills and creating a demand so the Puppy Mills will continue.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

I think we are going around in circles here.
Point is: NO, the puppies are not at fault, they are the victims, their parents are the victims. I am sure a lot of the pet store puppies get good homes, that is not being questioned here.
The true point is: We need to do away with petstores selling puppies. There needs to be a nationwide law making it illegal to sell puppies or kittens in pet stores. It worked in Germany and I am sure in a lot of other European countries as well. I know, the USA is a very big country in comparison, to the different European countries. And I know, a lot of the problem is that the federal government would most likely not dictate to each state what they can and cannot do regarding the sale of puppies/kittens.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

cgriffin said:


> I think we are going around in circles here.
> Point is: NO, the puppies are not at fault, they are the victims, their parents are the victims. I am sure a lot of the pet store puppies get good homes, that is not being questioned here.
> The true point is: We need to do away with petstores selling puppies. There needs to be a nationwide law making it illegal to sell puppies or kittens in pet stores. It worked in Germany and I am sure in a lot of other European countries as well. I know, the USA is a very big country in comparison, to the different European countries. And I know, a lot of the problem is that the federal government would most likely not dictate to each state what they can and cannot do regarding the sale of puppies/kittens.


 
Thank you! Very well said, I totally agree!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

kwhit said:


> If there are no more mills or HVBs, (which would be wonderful), there will still be puppies in pet stores as long as there is a market for them. I've known store owners that will call ads in the paper and buy the whole litter. A few people, (very few), won't sell to them, but most will. When they get that check in their hands, they will usually do it, (breed), again. And so it begins again. :no: We need to *QUIT BUYING ANY PUPPY OR KITTEN FROM PET STORES!* Period! That is the only way to stop it. There will always be "inventory" for these scum stores, but if there are no buyers, it will stop.
> 
> Don't buy anything from these stores. Nothing! Don't even walk through their doors. As long as they have puppies/kittens for sale stay away. If they don't have money in their pockets they can't line the pockets of their suppliers. Really quite simple...


Good point. 

Municipal and state regulation of these breeders, with teeth in it and with inspection rights, can go a long way to stop the source of the "inventory". In addition, city ordinances or state laws addressing pet stores selling puppies for profit are also a good idea--some cities and states are actually doing this. Authorities need to follow through and enforce though. It needs to be tackled from multiple fronts, not just hoping people get the message and don't buy from pet stores. My state tried, once again, to enact puppy mill and HVB legislation with real teeth in it, but it was watered down by lobbies in the end. Believe it or not, my city actually has more stringent ordinances than our state law and they could be a lot stronger IMO. It was due to a group of dedicated animal welfare that pressed our city council into action. I suspect enforcement is lacking though, unless there is a problem or a complaint. At least the ordinances, as currently written, prohibit the old BYB in the pick up truck in the Walmart parking lots on weekends and they require "breeders", as defined in the ordinance, to get a license and comply with certain requirements.

Education of the public to boycott for profit pet stores, regulation of pet stores selling puppies for profit, regulation/inspection of puppy mills, BYBs and HVBs can help.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

cgriffin said:


> I think we are going around in circles here.
> Point is: NO, the puppies are not at fault, they are the victims, their parents are the victims. I am sure a lot of the pet store puppies get good homes, that is not being questioned here.
> The true point is: We need to do away with petstores selling puppies. There needs to be a nationwide law making it illegal to sell puppies or kittens in pet stores. It worked in Germany and I am sure in a lot of other European countries as well. I know, the USA is a very big country in comparison, to the different European countries. And I know, a lot of the problem is that the federal government would most likely not dictate to each state what they can and cannot do regarding the sale of puppies/kittens.


True, unless it's a Agriculture Dept regulation, it will be upon each state to enact bans like this and that is difficult in certain states due to a variety of factors.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> I wouldn't either-by purchasing a pet store puppy, you are supporting the puppy mills and creating a demand so the Puppy Mills will continue.


And for those of us that _do_ walk away from these "puppies in the window", I hope no one thinks that we don't feel just as sad and upset about them than those that buy them saying they are "saving" them. I've been haunted before by those puppies faces, but I *refuse *to support the mill/HVB practice no matter what my heart tells me. All I have to do is picture their parent's faces and at that point I know I did the right thing.

If everyone would just walk away from these puppies, no matter how they tear at our heartstrings, _things would change_. Until that time comes, no matter how much it hurts, I will always walk away...


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Thanks for addressing my statement because you just further proved my point I don't know if it was in their contract, if there is a time limit on the contract (one came from out of the country) nor do I know if the owner violated the contract.....all I know is they needed to surrender their dogs because of life issues and this is the route they took. One went to a friend and the other 2 went to rescues....so it just doesn't happen to pet store pups or byb's.
> 
> Nobody can factually say that most pet store pups live "unhealthy" lives....nobody....I am not condoning anything. Just looking at it thru a different perspective. For what it's worth I have never purchased from a pet store. But I don't judge people that do.


I'm not sure what point I helped further prove? The one that reputable breeders take their puppies back and the ones you were offered were supposedly from reputable breeders? The one that they ended up going to friends and rescues, which somehow meant that dogs from reputable breeders end up being rehomed or in rescue? 

I've been involved in golden retriever rescue for 9 years. I can tell you that in that time, we have NEVER had a dog that came in that originated from a reputable breeder. How would I know? Because a well bred golden looks a heck of a lot different from a byb golden. I will hold my two up for example. They are beautiful to me, but both are outside breed standards. Jasper also has mild hip displaysia and was diagnose with hypothyroidism at 2 years old. Danny came into rescue in congestive heart failure at 5 months old. He had two heart defects that are hereditary. 

I would never judge someone who purchased a dog from pet store if they were truly uneducated. I will judge someone who does it when they know all the dirty little secrets and yet they still feel that buying a puppy right then, right there is more important than the lives of living animals that are used and abused that live behind the scenes.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

fostermom said:


> A truly reputable breeder has it in their contract that if for any reason the buyers are unable to keep the puppy/dog, they are to be returned to the breeder.


There are legitimate reasons why a prospective puppy owner might not want to sign such a contract, and why a reputable breeder might not force the issue. For example, if I died or were unable to care for my dog, I'd want him to stay with my parents and their dog, who we visit every week, and who my dog knows and loves. That would be the best home for him in such an eventuality, and, if let's say the reason he had to stay there was like I fell into a coma or something, I'd be able to reclaim him when I recovered (Not necessarily the case if a dog were returned to a breeder I didn't know well and then re-homed with a new family).

I don't like the idea of saying all reputable breeders do x or y. There should be room for individual choice.



CAROLINA MOM said:


> Breeder dogs are normally considered Livestock, when they can no longer produce puppies, they are normally shot.


I wonder why that is. When I spent a few months scouring newspaper and Internet ads for dogs prior to adopting my puppy a couple years ago, anything with the word "golden retriever" in it, even mixed breeds, tended to go pretty quickly. Like an ad went up for a half-golden retriever half-something else who was several years old and I e-mailed within half an hour of the posting and I got a reply back that someone had already agreed to adopt her pending a visit.

One would think these puppy mills, profit driven as they are supposed to be, would sell female dogs who can no longer produce puppies at a discount to some family who maybe couldn't afford a puppy or was specifically interested in an older dog. Even if they'd only get $50 or $100, it'd be more than what they'd get if they euthanized her (and would save them money on whatever they used to euthanize dogs).


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

fostermom said:


> I would never judge someone who purchased a dog from pet store if they were truly uneducated. I will judge someone who does it when they know all the dirty little secrets and yet they still feel that buying a puppy right then, right there is more important than the lives of living animals that are used and abused that live behind the scenes.


I agree 100%...


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> One would think these puppy mills, profit driven as they are supposed to be, would sell female dogs who can no longer produce puppies at a discount to some family who maybe couldn't afford a puppy or was specifically interested in an older dog. Even if they'd only get $50 or $100, it'd be more than what they'd get if they euthanized her (and would save them money on whatever they used to euthanize dogs).


Have you ever seen the condition these dogs are typically in when they're all used up? It usually takes hundreds of dollars to get them anywhere near the shape they would have to be in to sell them. It's usually rescues that dig deep into their pockets and get these dogs healthy again. Do you honestly think these "breeders" would put in the time and money to do this?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

fostermom said:


> I'm not sure what point I helped further prove? The one that reputable breeders take their puppies back and the ones you were offered were supposedly from reputable breeders? The one that they ended up going to friends and rescues, which somehow meant that dogs from reputable breeders end up being rehomed or in rescue?
> 
> I've been involved in golden retriever rescue for 9 years. I can tell you that in that time, we have NEVER had a dog that came in that originated from a reputable breeder. How would I know? Because a well bred golden looks a heck of a lot different from a byb golden. I will hold my two up for example. They are beautiful to me, but both are outside breed standards. Jasper also has mild hip displaysia and was diagnose with hypothyroidism at 2 years old. Danny came into rescue in congestive heart failure at 5 months old. He had two heart defects that are hereditary.
> 
> I would never judge someone who purchased a dog from pet store if they were truly uneducated. I will judge someone who does it when they know all the dirty little secrets and yet they still feel that buying a puppy right then, right there is more important than the lives of living animals that are used and abused that live behind the scenes.


The point that even dogs from reputable breeders are surrendered (not somehow meant). But I think you knew that You not seeing this at "your" rescues does not mean it does not happen. What does stating your rescues health problems prove? Should I list the health problems from my AKC golden who was purchased from a reputable breeder. I don't think any of us condone abuse. However if this is a strong issue.....draw up a petition, get the signatures, put it on the ballot and let the people vote.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Ive seen some HVB's websites use the fact that they are USDA inspected as some sort of marketing sign of quality. Cripes the USDA has a hard enough time inspecting food processing facilities...sadly, I dont think dog kennels are high on the list. 



Dallas Gold said:


> ....and the further heartache is if these poor puppies age out of the store, their future is also very uncertain. http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retrievers-main-discussion/108379-ever-wonder-what-happens-pet-store-dogs-if-not-purchased.html
> 
> We really need states and the Agriculture Dept to step up enforcement against these puppy mills and high volume breeders so that the pet stores will not have an "inventory" of "product" to sell. We need to attack the problem from both sides.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Sunrise said:


> Exactly!! I love the breeders I now work with, but the stipulations that were demanded of me before were crazy and not possible for a working person.
> 
> Rude, uncaring and just wanting the money were the experiences that I had 10-20 years ago. And those deposits I mentioned? 2 breeders never even had the courtesy to let me know the breedings did not take - and these were (and are) big name breeders.
> 
> ...


This is a good point.

People who are against puppy mills and backyard breeders and such need to look at why there is demand for them. In the case of some people, they choose to buy puppies at pet stores because of what they feel are unreasonable restrictions breeders place on prospective buyers.

A lot of people buy from backyard breeders because they can't afford to pay what so-called reputable breeders charge, or don't find the prices reasonable.

So, I would say a breeder who wants to combat puppy mills and backyard breeders could do so most effectively by adjusting their sales practices to attract the buyers who would otherwise buy from those other providers.

I bought my dog from a real nice couple that some people would probably have called a back yard breeder, but he's a great dog. I've had him a couple years now and he's my best friend. And the conditions at their house were fine-- lots of people around, the dogs got to play outdoors and got attention, etc..

Would I have been willing to buy from what this forum terms a reputable breeder? In theory, sure, who wouldn't want dogs with great bloodlines and good health clearances and stuff? In reality, though, I looked into it and all of them had prices I couldn't afford that they weren't willing to budge on, and contractual restrictions I wasn't comfortable with.

Breeders may need to give a little to get a little. If they want people to buy from them instead of other sources that consider less reputable, then they might have to work with people to get the price down to something they can afford and drop the contracts and extensive background checks and so on and so forth.

I was able to get my dog as an 8 week old puppy at half the price the cheapest puppy I could find from a breeder this forum would have approved would have cost. I was able to do a couple of phone calls and then pop by and pick him up and pay cash. And I love him to death. He's a really awesome dog.

If down the road when my dog passes away from old age or whatever, I find myself in the market for another puppy, I'd love to think I could get one from one of the breeders on the forum or whatever. But in actuality, the prices would be too high and they'd want all sorts of conditions. In fact, some might turn me down because I live in an apartment or have a low income and health difficulties.

So, it's probably back to looking at backyard breeders a decade from now or whatever.

I mean, it's nothing against any breeders with high prices and strict standards. It's just that whenever you charge high prices, there will be people who can't afford it and seek lower prices. Whenever you make strict requirements of buyers, there will be some buyers who can't meet them, and will seek a less restrictive arrangement. It is what it is.

I'm glad I live in a free country where I have choices and could buy from people who were willing to work with me on price and didn't set conditions. I feel like my dog has added a lot to my life and I've added a lot to his, and that wouldn't have been possible if some people had their way on what they think should be required of dog sellers and dog buyers.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> However if this is a strong issue.....draw up a petition, get the signatures, put it on the ballot and let the people vote.


The ball's rolling:

New Law Compels Toronto Shops To Sell Only Shelter Pets : The Two-Way : NPR

No dogs for sale? Cities ban pet store animals - Health - Pet health - msnbc.com


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> I'm glad I live in a free country where I have choices...


It's too bad that dogs don't have those same choices.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Of the two returned and rehomed, one was just over 2 years... I offered to take her back and return their money when the older bitch(terrier) in the house started attacking her when she was around 8 months. He refused, because he loved the dog and even though I told him it almost never gets better, he "managed it." Until the terrier almost bit his finger off when someone left a gate open and he got in the middle of the fight. She now lives with Gameboy and is her MIL's much loved and adored dog. It was clear when she came back that she was never out of her gated area in the house and her backyard. Socially she is in a better place.

Hindsight being 20/20.. dog #2 was returned around 10 months. He was sold limited and when his owners were leaving, they said we might want to breed him(I went into my dissertation)... should've taken the pup back then and there.. red flag!! These were people who used house warming money to buy him and didn't have a lot to spare.... They were clients of my husband's and it seemed like they would complain to him daily about something he did or didn't do... he didn't like them enough, he wasn't housetrained yet(run of the house at 8 weeks), the list went on and on. So at about ten weeks, I said return him and I will give you your money back. She refused...then about 5 months later (hadn't heard from her at all, but heard how he was doing thru my husband and my dog trainer friend), she emailed me and wanted full registration to show him. Yeah right.. I am pretty sure she had never been to a conformation show and I am pretty sure the money wasn't there for showing. It escalated into an internet argument.... Three months later, the day after Easter on a Monday afternoon, her husband called my husband and said it wasn't working out. Dropped the dog off at my husband's work(he was no longer their vet)... no paperwork, no food, no toys, no instructions... and they made sure he was neutered. He was quite a handsome boy and probably would've done well in Canada as his mom and grandmom did... My dear friends at Profile Goldens had a client in mind, so he found his furever home 3 years ago in NH. I took him that night as I had 3 bitches in heat and didn't think adding him to that mix along with the two neutered boys would work.

And finally, Basil was the stud fee puppy returned to me at 8 1/2 months... they could've rehomed her, but when I took one look at her, I paid the stud fee and she came home. Kennel living or partial kennel living just didn't fit in with her temperament.

I put that in my contract, because I want to know where my kids end up. Logically for me, would I have an issue if an owner died and a responsible family member stepped up? Of course not.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The breeder I got my second golden from required all owners to get OFA elbows & hips/Cardiologist clearance/CERF whether the dog was sold full or limited. And when I saw that her bitch never made it to the OFA website..I asked her what her ratings where.. and she had the gall to say she couldn't remember. Really????


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

kwhit said:


> It's too bad that dogs don't have those same choices.


Because they're dogs...

I mean, many days, I like dogs better than humans, and I feel really close to my dog. Growing up, though, my mother always used to say "He's your dog, not your brother" about the dog I grew up with, because I was so tight with him. And today I'll visit and she'll occasionally say "He's your dog, not your son.", because I am so close to my current dog and worry about him and pay such close attention to him. And, you know, she's right. I may have loved the dog I grew up with like a brother, and I may love my current dog like some sort of combination son/brother/best friend, but in the end, technically speaking, dogs aren't human beings. 

I am not saying that justifies anyone neglecting their animal or doing horrible things to it. I'm just saying that there are good reasons why it's harder to adopt an orphan human than a puppy dog, and why we have tougher standards when it comes to the care of humans than the care of dogs. It's important to keep some sort of perspective.

Fifty years ago, the average dog lived in a little dog house outside in the elements and was fed table scraps, with no vaccinations, no vet visits, minimal human interaction, etc.. Today, the average dog lives inside with a human family, is fed specialized dog food, gets all his shots and vaccinations, and is played with and walked and loved. We've come a long way.

I'm not saying some reform isn't needed with puppy mills and pet stores and whatnot, but when people start talking about only allowing people to sell dogs who require contracts and come from accredited breeders, and not letting people feed dogs Purina or Pedigree whatever, I think they're going overboard.

I mean, there are starving human children in Somalia and places like that. Compared to the lives a lot of _human beings_ lead, the average dog in the US is living really well.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> The point that even dogs from reputable breeders are surrendered (not somehow meant). But I think you knew that You not seeing this at "your" rescues does not mean it does not happen. What does stating your rescues health problems prove? Should I list the health problems from my AKC golden who was purchased from a reputable breeder. I don't think any of us condone abuse. However if this is a strong issue.....draw up a petition, get the signatures, put it on the ballot and let the people vote.


I'm still lost on your point in your posts. Because the owners of these dogs *told* you that they were from reputable breeders, that automatically means it's true? 

Your three examples against the over 300 dogs a year that come through my rescue X 9 years? Yeah, I'm thinking I have quite a few more dogs to draw my conclusions on. Certainly more than three dogs, that's for sure.

You say your dog came from a reputable breeder. How exactly do we know the breeder was reputable other than your saying so?

Again, my two are only a tiny example of the genetic health issues we see in the rescue every single day as dogs come in. Out of over 2,000 dogs in the time I have been involved in golden retriever rescue, genetic health issues are quite common.

You obviously want to argue this point over and over without having dealt with the sheer number of byb dogs that I have. Go for it. I am done. I know what I see every single day. And I won't condone anyone buying from a pet store and I will judge someone who does if they are aware of the abuse and neglect that the dogs who produce these puppies go through. If you want to shrug it off and be a better person than me by not judging them, all the more power to you.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

I only read the first 3 pages but I have to say - how can you feel good about buying a pet store puppy? Don't you get that they spend weeks to months in a crate during their most maleable age? Don't you get what happens to the ones that aren't lucky enough to be bought? Yeah, I hate to tell you but puppy millers are real people too. What I don't support BIGtime is a. the puppies are CRATED for up to months. how freaking awful. b. what happens to the puppies that aren't sold. baby making machines, sires in kennels, some are put down.

So would buying a puppy store puppy be something you should feel is a dirty little secret? IMO, yeah. It's something you should never feel good about whether you didn't know better back then or not - knowing better today you should not feel good about supporting a puppy store. Love your pet store pets absolutely but remember you own what you condone and honestly, that is not something for very many reasons that should be condoned or okay.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> Because they're dogs...


Really? That didn't occur to me. :uhoh:

And we don't need _some_ reform in mills, we need _total_ reform.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> I put that in my contract, because I want to know where my kids end up. Logically for me, would I have an issue if an owner died and a responsible family member stepped up? Of course not.


I understand where you're coming from. 

Let's say hypothetically, though, that I were to adopt a puppy from a breeder like you in ten years and she knew that I'd raised a golden before and knew their requirements and everything, and that I wasn't going to suddenly want to get rid of my puppy because he bites or doesn't come house trained or anything like that. She might not know everything about me, but she knows I've raised goldens from puppy hood before and wouldn't wig out when things got stressful. That I know what's involved and have been through it before.

Then lets say she and I talked over my situation and my desire not to sign a contract, but I shook her hand and agreed that if the unforeseen happened and I couldn't find a home for my dog with my family or friends, I'd return him to her.

Would you then say that breeder wasn't reputable because she didn't make me sign a contract? Or because I live in an apartment? Or don't have much money?

That's why I don't like statements like "All reputable breeders make buyers sign contracts" and stuff like that. People's circumstances can vary wildly.

If a given breeder is only comfortable selling puppies with contracts, I am not saying that's not his or her right. I'm just saying that shouldn't be a requirement of the breeder.

One thing I remember with my childhood dog is that my parents got him for under $100 even though he was a pure bred puppy, because they knew the family and the family gave my parents a break because they knew my parents would be a good home for their puppy. They took less money to put the puppy in a home where he'd be happy, and I think he was happy there. They didn't make my parents sign a contract or anything, but they knew my parents.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I didn't make the comment that all reputable breeders have contracts. I said I have a contract. My three Goldens that I did not breed myself all came to me with signed contracts. One of those dogs was given to me and I purchased the other two. I have never sold nor given a dog to anyone without a contract.... If someone doesn't want to sign a contract, pure and simple, they do not want a dog from me.... My stipulations are not unfair , but includes things like spay/neuter and basic care of the dog. I do not require a fenced in yard because I have owned many perimeter trained dogs. I see contracts that state you can only feed raw or have to feed NuVet or Vitamin C or.... Not vaccinate your dog or...

Golden #2 was sold to me with a ridiculous five page contract...I had a lawyer client look at it. He said that basically the contract was so biased toward the breeder/seller that it wouldn't be upheld in court. Now I am way off topic, but these are the things that people who breed dogs that they care about require. HVB may have contracts as well, but I think it is to limit competition. Puppy mills sell their dogs to brokers and then the brokers sell to pet stores. The breeder never knows where the puppies end up and really doesn't care

One of our techs applied to the local pet store when she as young...she said there was a back room where all the sick pups were kept. They told her that they ordered more pups then they needed because there were always some that didn't make it.

I, too never buy food from pet stores...however, back when Tiki was about two(she is seven now), she was soo finicky. I had exhausted every pet food store in the area. In desperation, I went into a store that sold dogs in addition to other creatures I will never own. My younger son, ten years at the time, came with me. He looked at all of the pups and told me that when he grew up, he would buy all the puppies because he felt sorry for them. I then had to explain the puppy mill reality to him. While he was staring at the caged pups, he noticed a dead, desiccated lizard in one aquarium...didn't just die that day....


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Even a rescue and our local shelters require contracts.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

I will never understand that if you trust your breeder enough to purchase a puppy from them, (huge decision IMO), then why on earth would you not trust their judgement in their decision on what stipulations they put on their puppy buyers. This totally baffles me.  If you don't agree with their contracts/requirements, then they're not the breeder for you.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> While he was staring at the caged pups, he noticed a dead, desiccated lizard in one aquarium...didn't just die that day....


Thanks for saying this. 

A lot of people notice the condition of the puppies in these pet stores, but they generally have some semblance of care. The other animals would be in horrible condition. This one mall store I sometimes used to pop in to handle the puppies and check in on them... the puppies were fine. On the other side of the store, the kittens would be sick and the pet birds were in horrible condition - I would bet a majority of them had feather mites. I'd mention to the clerks, but I doubt they did anything about it.


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

I think that those that think it is fine for people to buy from pet stores should volunteer at a rescue that specializes in Mill breeder dogs. I think they would change their minds about pet stores. Well, at least I hope they would. It isn't just the health issues these poor adult breeding dogs have to deal with, it is socialization and just about everything else the world has to offer. Roxy's story isn't just a special case, it is the norm for these dogs. Finn is a BYB and if I was more educated, he would not be the dog I would of chose b/c his breeder would not of made it to my list. Reputable breeders are so important to better our breed. Yeah, there is no guaranteed that a dog from a reputable breeder would have absolutely no health issues, but you are bettering the chances of them being healthy by going to a reputable breeder. Why wouldn't you want to stack the odds in your favor?


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

kwhit said:


> I will never understand that if you trust your breeder enough to purchase a puppy from them, (huge decision IMO), then why on earth would you not trust their judgement in their decision on what stipulations they put on their puppy buyers. This totally baffles me.  If you don't agree with their contracts/requirements, then they're not the breeder for you.


I trust my doctor enough to let him prescribe me medicines. That doesn't mean I want him to run my finances or my day to day life.

I could easily see trusting someone to sell me a puppy that wasn't sick or misrepresented, but with whom I might disagree on some aspects of a contract. Just because they, say, don't want to sell dogs to people who don't feed their dogs a certain type of food and I disagree with that, doesn't mean that somehow the puppies they are selling are foxes wearing golden retriever suits or something. 

I mean, but, yeah, you're right- if I don't want to sign a contract, then I find a breeder that won't make me sign a contract. If I can't afford high prices, then I find someone with lower prices. That's what I did when I bought my dog. But my point is that then people turn around and complain that people buy dogs from "backyard" breeders and such. Well, yeah, that's what people are going to do if the other breeders have prices they can't afford or conditions they aren't willing to agree to.

I'm glad I had the freedom to just buy a dog at a price I can afford with no strings attached. I know one thing a contract would have likely required is that I neuter him, and I didn't want to. And, no, he's never once marked in the apartment with urine (I had to house train him obviously, but that was before he got to the point where he started marking territory), and he's never mated with a random female dog. I'm responsible with him. And I felt like not having him undergo an unneeded surgery was my call to make as his owner. He's my dog, not the breeder's (A sentiment I imagine they agreed with since they didn't require contracts). They have their own dogs (His parents and any puppies they didn't sell). When I bought him, that meant I get to make the decisions about him.

That's to me what buying means. That the owner gets to make the choices that pertain to the dog. What to name him, what to feed him, what toys to get him, and so on and so forth. To me buying a dog with a contract would be more like a long-term loan. Obviously, people can do what they want. I'm just saying I personally wouldn't sign a contract.

I know someone's who's in-laws lost their dog because they signed a contract with a dog rescue place and the dog rescue place actually raided their fenced in back yard and stole their dog. The rescue place's excuse? The dog wasn't supposed to ever be left alone outside. He was in a fenced in yard with a couple trees for shade on a very mild summer day for an hour or two.

I just wouldn't want to ever put myself in a situation where someone had the contractual right to take my dog back if they decided at their own discretion that I wasn't living up to the fine print of some agreement. I'd rather just buy a dog outright and have total rights to him, which is what I did. Oddly enough, it cost me _less_ to do that rather than more. I got more rights for a lower price. Seemed like a good deal to me.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

fostermom said:


> I'm still lost on your point in your posts. Because the owners of these dogs *told* you that they were from reputable breeders, that automatically means it's true?
> 
> Your three examples against the over 300 dogs a year that come through my rescue X 9 years? Yeah, I'm thinking I have quite a few more dogs to draw my conclusions on. Certainly more than three dogs, that's for sure.
> 
> ...


You are lost because you are looking thru rose colored glasses.....I already explained these dogs were from reputable breeders...I will not mention the breeders name on here.......you chose to not believe me....
Argue? Seriously? I must have hit a nerve....no I don't want to argue with you......no I have not dealt with all your byb pups, but I have dealt with a pup from a reputable breeder (of course you don't believe it) that had more health problems than you can imagine.....I am not shrugging off anything........I am however just giving a different perspective.


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> You are lost because you are looking thru rose colored glasses.....I already explained these dogs were from reputable breeders...I will not mention the breeders name on here.......you chose to not believe me....
> Argue? Seriously? I must have hit a nerve....no I don't want to argue with you......no I have not dealt with all your byb pups, but I have dealt with a pup from a reputable breeder (of course you don't believe it) that had more health problems than you can imagine.....I am not shrugging off anything........I am however just giving a different perspective.


I think your missing her point. You are dealing with a few dogs from a reputable breeder with health issues. No one is arguing that reputable breeders always have healthy puppies with NO health issues. It does happen. What she is saying is she deals with hundreds of BYBs with a ton of issues al the time. It isn't just about the health either. It is about the temperment as well. Just saying.


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

This argument is going round and round at this point. I suspect the percentage of dogs and cats that live inside loving homes like the members here is a small minority of the total pet population. It isn't the good hearted, until death do us part, owners keeping the byb's, mills, and pet stores in business. It is the people who see their pets as possessions, kept outside on a chain, or left to roam free. When in rural KY, I saw lots of dogs living horrible lives. Did they have food and water? Yes. Any real human contact? Very little, from what I saw. That can happen anywhere. I think of the poor beagle my best friend had growning up. She lived in an outdoor pen all her life. She was a hunting dog, but I don't remember her going out hunting once in the years I knew of her. I don't even remember my friend being sad when she died. We are talking an affluent college educated family, back in the early 1980's. It is those who see pets not as family members, but as things, that create most of the demand that mills and byb's supply, imo.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Golden999 said:


> There are legitimate reasons why a prospective puppy owner might not want to sign such a contract, and why a reputable breeder might not force the issue. For example, if I died or were unable to care for my dog, I'd want him to stay with my parents and their dog, who we visit every week, and who my dog knows and loves. That would be the best home for him in such an eventuality, and, if let's say the reason he had to stay there was like I fell into a coma or something, I'd be able to reclaim him when I recovered (Not necessarily the case if a dog were returned to a breeder I didn't know well and then re-homed with a new family).
> 
> I don't like the idea of saying all reputable breeders do x or y. There should be room for individual choice.
> 
> ...


DVGRR is a large Golden Retriever Rescue group in your area that takes a lot of breeder dogs into their program. They have a Program called PROJECT HOME LIFE, go to their website to read about it and what they have been able to do for the breeder dogs they have taken into Rescue, it's pretty amazing. 

Delaware Valley Golden Retriever Rescue




kwhit said:


> Have you ever seen the condition these dogs are typically in when they're all used up? It usually takes hundreds of dollars to get them anywhere near the shape they would have to be in to sell them. It's usually rescues that dig deep into their pockets and get these dogs healthy again. Do you honestly think these "breeders" would put in the time and money to do this?


CFGRR covered ALL of Roxy's expenses, her Vet Bills in 2007 totaled just under $2,000. My adoption fee for her was $250, she has been with us for 5 years now. 



FinnTastic said:


> I think that those that think it is fine for people to buy from pet stores should volunteer at a rescue that specializes in Mill breeder dogs. I think they would change their minds about pet stores. Well, at least I hope they would. It isn't just the health issues these poor adult breeding dogs have to deal with, it is socialization and just about everything else the world has to offer. Roxy's story isn't just a special case, it is the norm for these dogs. Finn is a BYB and if I was more educated, he would not be the dog I would of chose b/c his breeder would not of made it to my list. Reputable breeders are so important to better our breed. Yeah, there is no guaranteed that a dog from a reputable breeder would have absolutely no health issues, but you are bettering the chances of them being healthy by going to a reputable breeder. Why wouldn't you want to stack the odds in your favor?


I think my Roxy had it a little harder or at least I would like to think she did, than most of the breeder dogs, since she had been abused physically and verbally. A lot of the breeder dogs are rehabiliated to live normal lives. She is still afraid of men in particular, she will never be 100%, she still has issues at times, but they aren't as severe as they were the first couple of years she was with us.

The ASPCA has had a campaign going on for at least more than a year to stop Puppy Mills. You can go to their website to help advocate to stop them.

ASPCA | Puppy Mills

ASPCA | Laws That Protect Dogs in Puppy Mills


Work with your local city council/government to pass local ordiances to stop Pet Stores from selling puppies and don't patronize the stores that do until they stop selling them. Several cities have passed similiar ordiances, the stores are now used for adoption events for area Shelter and Rescue animals. 

Take it a step further and contact your state representatives to get legislation passed in your state.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

It amazes me in this day & age that we still have to "educate" folks on pet store puppies & puppy mills. I have adopted one breeder girl, her kennel was liquidated after the death of her miller. It's taken nearly 3 years and while she is leaps & bounds "better", she's still untrusting of strangers & fearful of strange noises (drooling, shaking fearful). Each day, I have to convince her to come out from under the bed which is her safety spot. She's hypothyroid, her dad has SAS & physical deformities and was also used as her stud. I'm also fostering another breeder girl, who after 6 mos is finally taking treats from me (must be the yummiest), offering brief eye contact and doesn't nearly flinch as much (but still does) each time I touch her. She spins in circles when panicked, will not come when called and lives her life in one of 2 places in the house. It's absolutely heartbreaking to see a golden retriever act like this--you can tell she wants more out of life, but even after a year with the rescue, she has little faith in people. After spending years volunteering with rescues in OK, MO and now GA and getting to see the difference between a well-bred golden and a rescue, I absolutely will not condone indiscriminate breeding. Looking at the number of hip & elbow surgeries performed, watching dogs suffer from allergies & seeing their play shortened due to a weak heart, there is no way I could excuse a breeder for taking short cuts and not doing clearances--and yes, I realize clearances aren't a 100% guarantee, but they sure do stack the cards in the dogs' favor. Until folks get a clue, I'll be there working with rescues to pick up the pieces.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

*I many have missed this- Saw it on another forum I belong to*

This Organization offers a free report, if you've bought from pet store. It'll give You some type of idea where your pup came from.

http://www.petshoppuppies.org/psppuppyreport.htm

Free Puppy Report


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

SheetsSM said:


> It amazes me in this day & age that we still have to "educate" folks on pet store puppies & puppy mills. I have adopted one breeder girl, her kennel was liquidated after the death of her miller. It's taken nearly 3 years and while she is leaps & bounds "better", she's still untrusting of strangers & fearful of strange noises (drooling, shaking fearful). Each day, I have to convince her to come out from under the bed which is her safety spot. She's hypothyroid, her dad has SAS & physical deformities and was also used as her stud. I'm also fostering another breeder girl, who after 6 mos is finally taking treats from me (must be the yummiest), offering brief eye contact and doesn't nearly flinch as much (but still does) each time I touch her. She spins in circles when panicked, will not come when called and lives her life in one of 2 places in the house. It's absolutely heartbreaking to see a golden retriever act like this--you can tell she wants more out of life, but even after a year with the rescue, she has little faith in people. After spending years volunteering with rescues in OK, MO and now GA and getting to see the difference between a well-bred golden and a rescue, I absolutely will not condone indiscriminate breeding. Looking at the number of hip & elbow surgeries performed, watching dogs suffer from allergies & seeing their play shortened due to a weak heart, there is no way I could excuse a breeder for taking short cuts and not doing clearances--and yes, I realize clearances aren't a 100% guarantee, but they sure do stack the cards in the dogs' favor. Until folks get a clue, I'll be there working with rescues to pick up the pieces.


I can so relate to some of the things you have said about your Breeder girl, it is absolutely heartbreaking and IMO, there's no excuse for the treatment and conditions they have endured. 


I got my Roxy a Thunder Shirt, it is helping a lot. I use it mainly in situations I know she will be stressed. DVGRR is using them a lot with their Breeder dogs they take in and are having great success.


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Golden999 said:


> Because they're dogs...
> 
> 
> I mean, there are starving human children in Somalia and places like that. Compared to the lives a lot of _human beings_ lead, the average dog in the US is living really well.


I've heard this many times. It is possible to care about the welfare of dogs and of our hungry/poor brothers and sisters at the same time.

The dog is the one animal that human beings have had the most influence over. Every dog we see today is here because of human beings and in my eyes that makes us very responsible for them.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

FinnTastic said:


> I think your missing her point. You are dealing with a few dogs from a reputable breeder with health issues. No one is arguing that reputable breeders always have healthy puppies with NO health issues. It does happen. What she is saying is she deals with hundreds of BYBs with a ton of issues al the time. It isn't just about the health either. It is about the temperment as well. Just saying.


I am not missing anyone's point. I understand that there are horrible people in this world that harm dogs. And I applaud what these rescues do. My example was only of 3 dogs that I know. How many out there are doing this that you don't know. Alot of rescues are strays. Nobody knows where they came from. Nobody. As far as the health issues go......look at all the threads one here....


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> I got my Roxy a Thunder Shirt, it is helping a lot. I use it mainly in situations I know she will be stressed. DVGRR is using them a lot with their Breeder dogs they take in and are having great success.


The thunder shirt doesn't work for my girl & while it seems to have some affect on Izzy (foster), she chews hers off & then attempts to eat it so she can only wear it while being supervised. I love Project Home Life and subscribe to their blog. It's all about finding out what works for each dog.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Is there any point in keeping this thread open? I feel we have a couple of people that are using this as a means to "stir the pot"...


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

According to an ASPCA page 15 to 20% of dogs come from breeders.

I don't see anywhere it is broken down to see what percentages of the dogs come from Hobby breeders, Commercial breeders, and Backyard breeders.

Unfortunately, until enough quality breeders are out there people will continue to turn to those that are offering the dogs.


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> Is there any point in keeping this thread open? I feel we have a couple of people that are using this as a means to "stir the pot"...



and it's the choice of people to keep that particular pot stirred, this is an interesting topic and many diverse opinions flying around.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Exactly - thank you for putting this so eloquently !





solinvictus said:


> According to an ASPCA page 15 to 20% of dogs come from breeders.
> 
> I don't see anywhere it is broken down to see what percentages of the dogs come from Hobby breeders, Commercial breeders, and Backyard breeders.
> 
> Unfortunately, until enough quality breeders are out there people will continue to turn to those that are offering the dogs.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

SheetsSM said:


> The thunder shirt doesn't work for my girl & while it seems to have some affect on Izzy (foster), she chews hers off & then attempts to eat it so she can only wear it while being supervised. I love Project Home Life and subscribe to their blog. It's all about finding out what works for each dog.


I'm sorry the Tundershirt didn't work for your girl, I've been really amazed and impressed with the results I've seen with Roxy.

I too subscribe to their blog, it's really interesting and informative.

Definitely, each dog is different with different situations and issues, like you said, you have to try different things until you find what works.


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

I will tell you why I did not go to breeders that my friend suggested, they required to sign a contract that stated that they needed to be neutered/spayed before a year old, they were to be trained by a trainer of their choice and time with additional expenses, they were required to use THEIR vet choice and did not allow them to be outside without constant supervision even in a fenced in yard or kennel. Also, their fee was $1,800 which was way too steep for me especially with all those conditions .... my friend's dogs have severe food and environmental allergies which started before they were a year of age and can only eat certain foods which is very expensive. I would have been giving my pet back by now if I had purchased from them. I also researched other breeders that their conditions made me feel like I was only 'leasing' my pet and not 'owning' them. 

Bayne comes from a breeder who I think many here would consider her to be a 'hobby' breeder or a byb. I did not sign any contract other than the bill of sale, I agreed to have him neutered verbally at my own discretion. She gave me a history of her Goldens (specifically his parents and relatives) for the past 9 years and all have been healthy with no serious issues at all. I met all of Baynes' family, mom, dad, aunts, uncles and prior litters which would be considered his brothers and sisters but older. Also, some new lines and the new stud dog.... all temperaments are excellent and Bayne has proven to have an awesome temperament, calm as you can expect from a puppy in the midst of training. I've never seen aggression from him except for protective growling & barking when he hears something outside he's unsure of. 

Oh yeah, and I only paid $450 + HST(13%) = $508.50 (Canadian)

With this said I would never buy from a pet store since they cannot prove to me where their pets come from and there is no way for me to check them out. It's sad that many still contribute based on their ignorance, but I think if they were informed then the whole scenario would change big time.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

As an aside, I spend untold thousands of dollars training and showing my dogs. The 2 youngest have money invested in clearances and my girl has thousands more invested in breedings (did not result in puppies). My oldest has DNA and eye clearances although he never has been and never will be bred.

I truly understand more than many exactly what goes in to breeding quality golden retrievers. The years of training, grooming and conditioning. If I had my druthers, my contract would demand pictures of existing or past dogs from prospective buyers - if they were obese they would not get a pup from me. This is a serious form of neglect and abuse to me. I also consider other things to be forms of abuse that are acceptable to many people.

I get it, I really do. And I am trying to help in one of the ways I can; 

So I would ask of you who think closing Pet Stores & Puppy Mills is the entire answer - what are you doing to help the other side of the situation? Are you working with breeders and getting clearances even for the dogs who will never be bred so the breeders have more information on the success of their programs? Checking your dogs eyes yearly and getting the information in the databases? Giving time & money to genetic research so the breeders have larger data banks to draw on?

Are many of you out there training and showing your dogs? Or letting your dogs love using their brains and bodies in other ways that do not entail ribbons and titles? So the breeders will start taking more chances with where their puppies are placed?


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

Sunrise said:


> If I had my druthers, my contract would demand pictures of existing or past dogs from prospective buyers -* if they were obese* they would not get a pup from me. This is a serious form of neglect and abuse to me. I also consider other things to be forms of abuse that are acceptable to many people.


who is obese? The puppies or the prospective buyers? 

I don't have pictures of my pets growing up since we didn't take many pictures, but none of my dogs or cats were overweight, except now for my one Maine **** and it's like pulling teeth to get him to move. We call him our Garfield, prefers to watch the laser beam than chase it. His brother is the exact opposite he has the energy of both of them.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Deb_Bayne said:


> who is obese? The puppies or the prospective buyers?
> 
> I don't have pictures of my pets growing up since we didn't take many pictures, but none of my dogs or cats were overweight, except now for my one Maine **** and it's like pulling teeth to get him to move. We call him our Garfield, prefers to watch the laser beam than chase it. His brother is the exact opposite he has the energy of both of them.


Grins - the dog. I used this as an example of how people might think of different things to be put in a contract. I have an issue with obese dogs - and I don't think it is fair for an owner to let their dogs become obese - to me it is a sign of neglect and abuse.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Deb_Bayne said:


> who is obese? The puppies or the prospective buyers?
> 
> I don't have pictures of my pets growing up since we didn't take many pictures, but none of my dogs or cats were overweight, except now for my one Maine **** and it's like pulling teeth to get him to move. We call him our Garfield, prefers to watch the laser beam than chase it. His brother is the exact opposite he has the energy of both of them.


She's looking at the previous dog weight to make sure the owners know how to properly feed the future puppy, and to prevent any possible degenerative conditions that are worsened by excess weight, such as hip dysplasia. That in turn affects the quality of the dog's life and can also affect longevity. Looking at a dog's weight can also give you an idea if he/she is exercised at all. Weight alone; however, doesn't always give a true picture because some Goldens can gain weight if they are hypothyroid, for example, and not diagnosed or properly supplemented. That happened with our first golden, who was diagnosed when he was 12 1/2 years. His veterinarian wasn't as up to date on reading thyroid tests back then as they are now.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

solinvictus said:


> According to an ASPCA page 15 to 20% of dogs come from breeders.
> 
> I don't see anywhere it is broken down to see what percentages of the dogs come from Hobby breeders, Commercial breeders, and Backyard breeders.
> 
> Unfortunately, until enough quality breeders are out there people will continue to turn to those that are offering the dogs.


What is the definition of a Hobby Breeder, and can they be "reputable"? Many of the local breeders here call themselves hobby breeders. They are members of the local Golden Retriever Club, abide by GRCA standards, show the dogs and win titles, do all clearances, vet prospective purchasers and require signed contracts with limited registrations for pet homes. Are they "reputable"?


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

But there are additional tell tale signs for most hypo thyroid dogs - the tail, the coat, the ears etc. I have had hypothyroid dogs and have had to fight for treatment - this is a condition golden retriever owners should be very aware of. My King started getting heavy and his coat was suffering at around 8 - he was hypothyroid.

But many of the dogs I see are obese - because they are not exercised, they are not fed properly and this is a very sad thing. 



Dallas Gold said:


> She's looking at the previous dog weight to make sure the owners know how to properly feed the future puppy, and to prevent any possible degenerative conditions that are worsened by excess weight, such as hip dysplasia. That in turn affects the quality of the dog's life and can also affect longevity. Looking at a dog's weight can also give you an idea if he/she is exercised at all. Weight alone; however, doesn't always give a true picture because some Goldens can gain weight if they are hypothyroid, for example, and not diagnosed or properly supplemented. That happened with our first golden, who was diagnosed when he was 12 1/2 years. His veterinarian wasn't as up to date on reading thyroid tests back then as they are now.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Sunrise said:


> But there are additional tell tale signs for most hypo thyroid dogs - the tail, the coat, the ears etc. I have had hypothyroid dogs and have had to fight for treatment - this is a condition golden retriever owners should be very aware of. My King started getting heavy and his coat was suffering at around 8 - he was hypothyroid.
> 
> But many of the dogs I see are obese - because they are not exercised, they are not fed properly and this is a very sad thing.


Well until 2006, I was clueless when it came to hypothyroidism and pushing for supplementing Goldens in the lower normal ranges. In our case we had no other signs. My overweight golden had a nice coat and tail and never had an ear infection at all. He walked up to 4 miles a day (despite hip dysplasia). Since him I've had two hypothyroid dogs who were/are both thin when diagnosed, but they had the other telltale signs.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

You are right - but in general, would you say he was overweight or obese? I know with my first hypothyroid dog, he was overweight by about 6-8 pounds until diagnosed & treated; enough to end an obedience career back in the days when he had to jump 30" but not what I would consider obese. He was up to 84 ponds at his heaviest when I started harassing my vet LOL


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

What is the definition of a Hobby Breeder, and can they be "reputable"? Many of the local breeders here call themselves hobby breeders. They are members of the local Golden Retriever Club, abide by GRCA standards, show the dogs and win titles, do all clearances, vet prospective purchasers and require signed contracts with limited registrations for pet homes. Are they "reputable"? 

I know some people use hobby breeder in a negative way but I was told that a hobby breeder would be what you say. A breeder that belongs to the GRCA, abides by the standards, shows dogs either in agility, obedience, conformation or hunting venues. Wins titles, does all suggested clearances. Carefully chooses prospective owners, has a contract to protect their pups. Breed for the betterment of the breed. And is willing to take back their dogs if the owner can no longer provide for them a good home.

Unfortunately, there just isn't enough of these breeders to supply the demand. Do I think puppies should be purchased from a store? No. 
Do I think it is realistic that when we get all the stores no longer selling puppies that there still won't be breeders still finding a way to sell pups as long as there is a market for them. No

Do I think that everyone wanting a pup will wait 6 months, a year, or so to get a pup. 
No.
And as long as the market is there, there will be breeders willing to take advantage of it.

Do I think we should throw up our hands and just let things go. no

I agree that all of us that love goldens need to continue to educate ourselves and others and each time we make the wisest choice it lowers the market.

When using the ASPCA figures of 15 to 20% 
I am including Hobby breeders (quality)
I am including Commercial breeders 
I am including Backyard breeders

I don't have statistics (can't find any) but I am willing to guess that those hobby breeders (quality) are few and far between compared to the commercial and backyard breeders.

In this fast society it isn't realistic to think with human nature that we are going to get large amounts of people to wait a long time to purchase a pet.
If the market is there they will buy the pup or dog.

And if the market is there the breeders will find a way to sell the pups. It is a vicious circle. I am not saying not to stop the stores from selling pups but I am realistic enough to know that the breeders and the buyers will find another way to buy and purchase the pups.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> I trust my doctor enough to let him prescribe me medicines. That doesn't mean I want him to run my finances or my day to day life.


But...that physician _will_ tell you when and how much of that medicine you'll take which doesn't run your day to day life, but it does affect it. That's the stipulation from the doctor that you'll follow his directions or else you don't get the meds, in theory of course. Same with a breeder's stipulations...they let you purchase the puppy hoping that you'll follow their directions. Kind of all ties into the same thing.

Take too much of the meds and you might get sick or you could even die. Don't follow the breeder's requirements and you could lose the dog. Don't like the requirements from the doctor on the meds, find another doctor...don't like the requirements of a said breeder, get another breeder.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"don't like the requirements of a said breeder, get another breeder"

I believe that is what Golden999 did. Found a breeder to fit his wants and needs. 

I commend all of the breeders that breed the best have great requirements to protect their dogs that is their right.

But there is still going to be good people out there that don't fit their requirements who will find a way to purchase a pup, and as long as the market is there there will be breeders willing to fill that space.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Sunrise said:


> But there are additional tell tale signs for most hypo thyroid dogs - the tail, the coat, the ears etc. I have had hypothyroid dogs and have had to fight for treatment - this is a condition golden retriever owners should be very aware of. My King started getting heavy and his coat was suffering at around 8 - he was hypothyroid.
> 
> But many of the dogs I see are obese - because they are not exercised, they are not fed properly and this is a very sad thing.


I had a hypothyroid golden that had none of those tell tale signs.....


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> Take too much of the meds and you might get sick or you could even die. Don't follow the breeder's requirements and you could lose the dog. Don't like the requirements from the doctor on the meds, find another doctor...*don't like the requirements of a said breeder, get another breeder.*


And this is what turns people to look elsewhere.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Sunrise said:


> You are right - but in general, would you say he was overweight or obese? I know with my first hypothyroid dog, he was overweight by about 6-8 pounds until diagnosed & treated; enough to end an obedience career back in the days when he had to jump 30" but not what I would consider obese. He was up to 84 ponds at his heaviest when I started harassing my vet LOL


I would say about 6 to 8 lbs overweight as well. We didn't notice the slow creep of his weight, had him in for a routine blood panel and that's when he was diagnosed. Had our vet been more aware of hypothryoidism at the time, she might have done more thorough testing when he first started gaining. She admitted to us when both of our other dogs were diagnosed in 2006/2007 that they were learning so much more about the condition than they knew a few years before. Sadly, our first golden was never able to lose the weight and sustained an orthopedic injury that limited his walking abilities near the end of his life, which, in turn, didn't help the weight issue. His acupuncture vet looked at me one day, as I was discussing it with her, and asked me if I were 90 years old and overweight, would I want to eat salad for the rest of my life--in other words, he was nearing the end of his life and I shouldn't move heaven and earth to get him to a svelte weight. 

IMO, as a breeder, you are entitled to impose whatever pre-conditions on puppy purchasers or make whatever determinations you care to make. If I don't like something, I can look elsewhere. By the same token, I can make whatever judgments about the breeder as I want. That's the nature of a business transaction, and getting a dog is just that, a transaction (at least under the law). My only prerequisites are I receive full and complete " legal title" to my dog (not some mumbo jumbo about retaining a "lifelong interest in the dog"--what in the heck does that mean anyway?), and that I be able to put a microchip with our contact information as primary, our vets as secondary, and the breeder as additional. I think it is entirely reasonable for the breeder to insist in the contract that I return the dog to the breeder if for any reason I cannot keep him/her, just so long as we remain legal owners until/unless that clause is exercised.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

solinvictus said:


> What is the definition of a Hobby Breeder, and can they be "reputable"? Many of the local breeders here call themselves hobby breeders. They are members of the local Golden Retriever Club, abide by GRCA standards, show the dogs and win titles, do all clearances, vet prospective purchasers and require signed contracts with limited registrations for pet homes. Are they "reputable"?
> 
> I know some people use hobby breeder in a negative way but I was told that a hobby breeder would be what you say. A breeder that belongs to the GRCA, abides by the standards, shows dogs either in agility, obedience, conformation or hunting venues. Wins titles, does all suggested clearances. Carefully chooses prospective owners, has a contract to protect their pups. Breed for the betterment of the breed. And is willing to take back their dogs if the owner can no longer provide for them a good home.
> 
> ...


You are probably correct that "reputable" hobby breeders are far and few. Here is the website for the local GR club here, with the code of ethics and the breeders listed: DFW Golden Retriever Breeders - Dallas Fort Worth Texas 16 breeders in an area of over 2 million people.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

solinvictus said:


> ...and as long as the market is there there will be breeders willing to fill that space.


And that's the bottom line. You're right, there will always be breeders to fill that niche and people will always suffer from wanting instant gratification. 

I don't like BYBs, but I despise puppy mills and HVBs. They _disgust_ me. If it came down to it, if someone will not go to a responsible breeder, rescue or shelter, I would prefer, (not like, but prefer), them to purchase from a person that bred their family dog(s) and had a litter than a pet store any day of the week. At least, hopefully, those dogs are loved and taken care of. I'm not talking people that keep their dogs outside pumping out puppies, but those that keep their dogs inside, warm, fed and have vet care. Not ideal by any means but far better than a mill or people that treat their dogs like dirt.

People need to be educated in what to look for when they purchase a puppy. Don't make the mistake that you are "saving" them from horrible conditions...you are just lining the pocket of the seller who will turn around and do it again. 

IDK...sometimes I feel it's just a vicious merry-go-round that will never stop.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Originally Posted by *kwhit*  
_Take too much of the meds and you might get sick or you could even die. Don't follow the breeder's requirements and you could lose the dog. Don't like the requirements from the doctor on the meds, find another doctor...*don't like the requirements of a said breeder, get another breeder.*_
And this is what turns people to look elsewhere. 

Yes people can look elsewhere.

The breeder owns those puppies and as long as they are following the laws in their country etc they get to choose who gets their puppies. 

Those that are breeding to better the breed and do all the correct things own those puppies.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

solinvictus said:


> And this is what turns people to look elsewhere.
> 
> Yes people can look elsewhere.


Of course they can and do. But we need to educate those buyers in what to look for in their future puppy's environment. Don't buy from people that have their dogs in dirty conditions and live outside, that their dogs look ill, that the puppies are under socialized and appear fearful, don't buy from people that will "meet you somewhere", always see where your puppy has been raised. Buyers have to use their heads and not their hearts when buying. I know easier said than done, so leave the cash and checkbooks at home when you look at puppies.

Everyone knows that breeders can not keep up with the number of puppy buyers and they shouldn't have to. But those buyers should be smart in their decisions and quite pleading ignorance. There are so many campaigns urging people to buy responsibly or adopt/rescue and to avoid pet stores out there that I truly believe that someone must live under a rock to say they were unaware. It's not rocket science to see unclean living conditions and dogs that are being abused by over breeding. It's just frustrating that so many animals are suffering out there to appease the masses. Craziness...


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> Of course they can and do. But we need to educate those buyers in what to look for in their future puppy's environment. Don't buy from people that have their dogs in dirty conditions and live outside, that their dogs look ill, that the puppies are under socialized and appear fearful, don't buy from people that will "meet you somewhere", always see where your puppy has been raised. Buyers have to use their heads and not their hearts when buying. I know easier said than done, so leave the cash and checkbooks at home when you look at puppies.
> 
> Everyone knows that breeders can not keep up with the number of puppy buyers and they shouldn't have to. But those buyers should be smart in their decisions and quite pleading ignorance. There are so many campaigns urging people to buy responsibly or adopt/rescue and to avoid pet stores out there that I truly believe that someone must live under a rock to say they were unaware. It's not rocket science to see unclean living conditions and dogs that are being abused by over breeding. It's just frustrating that so many animals are suffering out there to appease the masses. Craziness...


You can't educate people while painting with a "broad brush". Some breeders do kennel breeding....some are outside. I have seen some of their kennels that you could eat off the floors. Not all backyard breeders abuse or live in dirty conditions....like you said people need to use common sense when purchasing their pups.....not be close minded.
I personally would never purchase a pup without seeing both parents. but that's me.


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

kwhit said:


> Of course they can and do. But we need to educate those buyers in what to look for in their future puppy's environment. Don't buy from people that have their dogs in dirty conditions and live outside, that their dogs look ill, that the puppies are under socialized and appear fearful, don't buy from people that will "meet you somewhere", always see where your puppy has been raised.


You know, the puppy store in my town actually sell dogs who are sick. What is awful is that people actually will buy a sick puppy! What is wrong with people?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Rainheart said:


> You know, the puppy store in my town actually sell dogs who are sick. What is awful is that people actually will buy a sick puppy! What is wrong with people?


People know that they are sick and don't report this?


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

They have been reported and investigated by at least the city/county sheriff's department. That's as far as I know. One of the officers came and talked to our vet about the puppy cottage before. I'm not sure what happened after that.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

*sigh* of relief.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Rainheart said:


> You know, the puppy store in my town actually sell dogs who are sick. What is awful is that people actually will buy a sick puppy! What is wrong with people?


This is one of the points I made...they think they're saving them. Heartfelt gesture but it's coming from ignorance. They don't see the big picture. Yes, it's horrible to think of that poor puppy suffering in the cage, but the best thing to do is report the situation, over and over if you have to. Someone will listen, eventually.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Just finished watching "Madonna of the Mills" on HBO. If you haven't done so, I recommend it. It reiterates the point that buying the puppy doesn't save the mother who will continue to put out puppies until she can no longer do so. It just perpuetuates the problem. (Cycle)


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Madonna of the Mills,made me cry as did , Shelter Dogs. Madonna of the mills opens eyes to the mills.


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## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I am not missing anyone's point. I understand that there are horrible people in this world that harm dogs. And I applaud what these rescues do. My example was only of 3 dogs that I know. How many out there are doing this that you don't know. Alot of rescues are strays. Nobody knows where they came from. Nobody. As far as the health issues go......look at all the threads one here....


The difference between puppies from a pet store, and dogs from a shelter is very simple. It is who your giving the money too. The pet store so they can do more horrible things. Or, the shelter so they can rescue dogs from horrible situations.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

:appl::appl::appl:Thanks, Lucky Penny!


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I am not missing anyone's point. I understand that there are horrible people in this world that harm dogs. And I applaud what these rescues do. My example was only of 3 dogs that I know. How many out there are doing this that you don't know. Alot of rescues are strays. Nobody knows where they came from. Nobody. As far as the health issues go......look at all the threads one here....


No, no a lot of rescues are strays. I think a lot are owner surrenders. And in the case of some rescues, they take in a lot of breeder dogs. Now, shelters may have a lot of strays. What about all the threads with health issues? Are they all dogs from reputable breeders? IDK, though I doubt it.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I personally would never purchase a pup without seeing both parents. but that's me.


I for one never have both parents here... and by making that statement you are ruling out the majority of really responsible breeders... because the best dog is not usually the one ya got. its really funny to me how pet people want to meet both parents because they view that as a good thing where I and many responsible breeders actually view having both dogs on sight as a bit suspect. 

I have not bred any of my girls to boys that I personally owned... some have been owned by friends and some have been owned by people that live a distance from me because I want the dog that is going to improve my girl and the odds of my owning the dog that is going to improve what I want to improve in my girl are very slim.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

FinnTastic said:


> No, no a lot of rescues are strays. I think a lot are owner surrenders. And in the case of some rescues, they take in a lot of breeder dogs. Now, shelters may have a lot of strays. What about all the threads with health issues? Are they all dogs from reputable breeders? IDK, though I doubt it.


The GR Rescue I was with, took in:

1. Strays-dogs found by people in the community that tried to locate the dog's owner and did not want to turn it into a shelter.

2. Owner surrenders-owenrs relingquishing their dogs for various reasons

3. Dogs pulled from shelters-these were a mixutre of Owner Surrenders-dogs turned into shelters by the owner for various reasons such as they were moving, could no longer care for the, etc., and strays where the owners did not claim them.


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> The GR Rescue I was with, took in:
> 
> 1. Strays-dogs found by people in the community that tried to locate the dog's owner and did not want to turn it into a shelter.
> 
> ...


That sounds about right. That is what I should of said.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

I know I've posted before about our Cooper. He came from a BYB, but was headed to a pet store when we found him. 
I saw an ad for him in the paper - $325. (I know, I know... but we didn't know then what we know now.) I called and the woman told me that someone else, the owner of a pet store, was already interested in him and she was waiting for a call back. I waited a little while, called her back and offered her twice what she was asking for him. I couldn't stand the thought of any pup going to a pet store, so I was determined to get this little guy. She said that if I wanted him that badly, then obviously we were the right option for him. Drove out there the next day to pick him up and she wouldn't take more than the original $325.

My point is, not all pet store puppies come from mills. I would imagine the majority probably DO, but there are some that come from "breeders" who can't sell all their pups. You can decide if a pup from a BYB is much better than a pup from a mill...??
We lost Coop at just over 11 years old. Up to that point, he never had one health issue in his life.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Lucky Penny said:


> The difference between puppies from a pet store, and dogs from a shelter is very simple. It is who your giving the money too. The pet store so they can do more horrible things. Or, the shelter so they can rescue dogs from horrible situations.


And my recent purchase went directly to a byb. 



FinnTastic said:


> No, no a lot of rescues are strays. I think a lot are owner surrenders. And in the case of some rescues, they take in a lot of breeder dogs. Now, shelters may have a lot of strays. What about all the threads with health issues? Are they all dogs from reputable breeders? IDK, though I doubt it.


I can only speak from my experience with 2 rescues that I had interviews with. Most the pups that were available had unknown backgrounds.
Regarding if all the threads about health issues are from reputable breeders.....of course not. 



Shalva said:


> I for one never have both parents here... and by making that statement you are ruling out the majority of really responsible breeders... because the best dog is not usually the one ya got. its really funny to me how pet people want to meet both parents because they view that as a good thing where I and many responsible breeders actually view having both dogs on sight as a bit suspect.
> 
> I have not bred any of my girls to boys that I personally owned... some have been owned by friends and some have been owned by people that live a distance from me because I want the dog that is going to improve my girl and the odds of my owning the dog that is going to improve what I want to improve in my girl are very slim.


It's important to me to see the parents. You can find out alot by just meeting them. I don't find it suspect at all. The breeder where I purchased my Cody didn't own both parents. They asked me if I was interested in meeting the litters mom and set up the appointment.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Several of the GR Rescues, there's one in my state, that when the breeder can't sell his puppies, he turns them over to the Rescue.

AGA gets alot of puppies in from breeders too.

ETA: mind you, these Breeders are not what I consider to be REPUTABLE BREEDERS


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> It's important to me to see the parents. You can find out alot by just meeting them. I don't find it suspect at all. The breeder where I purchased my Cody didn't own both parents. They asked me if I was interested in meeting the litters mom and set up the appointment.


and that is my point...people who are deeply involved in the breed and breeding responsibly view this very differently than many pet people and by your comments in this thread and your pride in going to pet stores and backyard breeders that doesn't surprise me in the least


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Shalva said:


> and that is my point...people who are deeply involved in the breed and breeding responsibly view this very differently than many pet people and by your comments in this thread and your pride in going to pet stores and backyard breeders that doesn't surprise me in the least


The breeder I was referring to with Cody was a _reputable breeder_. I have never nor would I ever purchase from a pet store and my recent purchase was the first time from a byb. Which I had mentioned before that both his parents are AKC dogs from champion lines. Someone referred to them more as hobby breeders? Who knows. Is that surprising?


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

DVGRR located in PA, takes in a lot of Breeder Dogs into their Rescue Program.

They have a great program called PROJECT HOME LIFE. I subscribe to their newsletter, here is the latest issue. 



*DVGRR Project Home Life*

*Devoted to following the lives of former puppy mill breeder dogs through the rehabilitation process.*


*Why You Should Care About Puppy Mills*

*If you are an animal lover…..*


*Inhumane treatment of dogs.*

Female dogs are bred every heat cycle (twice per year). Usually bred until they are 7-9 years old. Average 6-8 puppies per litter. That’s 84-144 puppies PER DOG. ON AVERAGE! Many dogs can have up to 12 puppies per litter!
Sanitary issues – contaminated water, build up of feces and hair
Imagine living on your bed – having to eat, sleep, play, and go to the bathroom on your bed and never getting to leave.

Lack of social interaction with both other dogs and people. Dogs are social pack animals. Fear of people, noises and normal day to day interactions.
Physical abuse and neglect.
Physical ailments and health issues that are not attended to.
Using no anesthesia, breeders will debark, dock ears and tails and perform c-sections.
After dogs are no longer useful, they are abandoned, shot or drowned. The lucky ones get turned over to rescues.
_In 2008, Two eastern Pennsylvania kennel operators shot 80 dogs after wardens ordered some of the animals examined by veterinarians. Wardens had ordered 39 dogs checked for flea and fly bites. They also issued citations for extreme heat, insufficient bedding and floors dogs’ feet could fall through. The kennel owner stated he feared the state was trying to close his kennel, and said a veterinarian recommended destroying the dogs. “They were old, and we were hearing that they don’t want kennels anymore,” he said. “The best thing to do was get rid of them.” _


*Commercial breeders and pet stores do not care about quality of the puppy. Instead, their concern is financial gain and product sales.*

Purchasing a puppy from a pet store supports puppy mills by adding to their bank accounts!
You are not “rescuing” a puppy mill dog if you purchase a puppy at a pet store.
Purchasing any products from pet stores which sell puppies also supports puppy mills.
_A study from doctors at the University of Pennsylvania, one of the top veterinary medicine and research institutions in the world, shows that 83% of breeder dogs from commercial kennels suffer from behavior problems as opposed to 54% of “normal” dogs._


*Health issues. *

Puppies get sick from being transported and exposed to all kinds of other puppies and dogs. They also get sick from living in filthy conditions and improper health care. Parasites, worms, parvo, distemper, and respiratory diseases are all common in puppies from puppy mills.
They can develop health issues later in life, not seen as a puppy. Hip dysplasia, allergies, bone diseases, cancer… Poor quality breeding increases the likelihood of health problems.
*Expense to owner.*

Commercial kennels and pet stores usually do not cover the cost of vaccines, spay or neuter or perform certified health checks on the breeder dogs used to produce the puppies they sell. A puppy at a pet store can cost anywhere from $500-$1500. Consider the cost when the owner must pay this fee as well as all the additional costs of vet care (spay/neuter, vaccines, training classes, etc.).
*If you are an average member of society…..*


*Your tax dollars!*

This is your tax money used for kennel inspections, re-inspections & court costs for trying animal neglect and abuse cases.
*Behavior issues of other people’s dogs could affect you and your family.*

Puppies from puppy mills, because of the lack of proper social skills, can suffer from behavior issues that could affect you, your children or grandchildren. Dogs who are fearful of people have potential to bite if put in a fight or flight situation.


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## krisw (Jan 1, 2012)

very sad..but all pups need a home. They should just ban pet shops..maybe puppy mills would not be able to mass produce and die out


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

I remember reading a few places in Canda (Toronto?) have banned pet stores from selling puppies. The pups/ dogs can only be from rescue organizations.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

krisw said:


> very sad..but all pups need a home. They should just ban pet shops..maybe puppy mills would not be able to mass produce and die out


sadly, I dont think banning brick and mortar pet shops will have much impact....

With the number of online puppy brokers growing and growing......sometimes their ads even pop up on GRF.....
I think increasing numbers of consumers will just cut out the pet-store-middleman and order online from puppy-dog-menus versus physically walking into a pet store...which will drive up the profit margins for the brokers as well as the BYB/HVBers increasing the motivation for them to continue to produce 'product' to meet demand.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

LibertyME said:


> With the number of online puppy brokers growing and growing......


And most of them have very slick websites. They patrol boards like this and learn what to tell their potential buyers. Everyone always complains that breeders are rude and they don't answer e-mails. Well, the brokers/BYBs/HVBs are the exact opposite...they're sweet, friendly and answer all your questions. You know why? Because they're salesmen. If I was looking for a puppy I would take a rude/curt breeder over a person with honey dripping off of every sentence any day of the week. But I know that a lot of people feel differently... 

Maybe breeders could be a little more welcoming, but then again when you're faced with countless numbers of people calling/e-mailing you and the first thing asked is, "Do you have any puppies and how much do they cost?", I would think you'd tend to get a little jaded. 

I still believe education is the key. But it's true...with the internet and shipping being so easy, these "breeders" will, unfortunately, continue to flourish.  Very frustrating...


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> And most of them have very slick websites. They patrol boards like this and learn what to tell their potential buyers. Everyone always complains that breeders are rude and they don't answer e-mails. Well, the brokers/BYBs/HVBs are the exact opposite...they're sweet, friendly and answer all your questions. You know why? Because they're salesmen. If I was looking for a puppy I would take a rude/curt breeder over a person with honey dripping off of every sentence any day of the week. But I know that a lot of people feel differently...
> 
> Maybe breeders could be a little more welcoming, but then again when you're faced with countless numbers of people calling/e-mailing you and the first thing asked is, "*Do you have any puppies and how much do they cost?", I would think you'd tend to get a little jaded. *
> 
> I still believe education is the key. But it's true...with the internet and shipping being so easy, these "breeders" will, unfortunately, continue to flourish.  Very frustrating...


Why would that make you jaded?


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Dont think for a minute that there are not fake "rescues" out there that are nothing more then puppy brokers moving 'older inventory' by putting heartbreaking pictures out there to appeal to the emotional, feel-good, side of the puppy-buying market. 

If puppy buyers dont do their own due diligence researching them ...they can also be unknowingly supporting the machine.

PLEASE dont get me wrong, there *are* FANTASTIC rescues and animal welfare organizations out there -- thank goodness.



MikaTallulah said:


> I remember reading a few places in Canda (Toronto?) have banned pet stores from selling puppies. The pups/ dogs can only be from rescue organizations.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Why would that make you jaded?


Do you know any breeders? I do, and it floors me how many e-mails and calls they get. The majority of the people take no time to give any other info other than asking those questions. No information about themselves, their living situation, other pets at home, why they want a puppy, nothing. First and usually only thing they say is do you have any puppies and what is their cost. 

When you hear that over and over and over, it gets old. Maybe not jaded, (I would be though if it were me), but definitely frustrating. One breeder I know will try to educate the person. That's on a good day and if she has the time. You have to remember that these breeders usually work outside the home, show, train, have families, etc. BYBs/HVBs usually have their dogs work for them, they don't show, train or anything. So they have way more time to talk, (and sell).

None of this will ever change as long as the people don't see the whole picture when purchasing their puppy. Every puppy is cute, but you have to be aware of where that puppy came from. But most people don't care about that. All they care about is their own satisfaction and to h*ll with the rest. And the worst ones are the people that _are_ aware and do it anyway.  I just want to shake them...


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

kwhit said:


> I just want to shake them...


You want to shake people????


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Sunrise said:


> You want to shake people????


OMG! LOL...total figure of speech.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> Do you know any breeders? I do, and it floors me how many e-mails and calls they get. The majority of the people take no time to give any other info other than asking those questions. No information about themselves, their living situation, other pets at home, why they want a puppy, nothing. First and usually only thing they say is do you have any puppies and what is their cost.
> 
> When you hear that over and over and over, it gets old. Maybe not jaded, (I would be though if it were me), but definitely frustrating. One breeder I know will try to educate the person. That's on a good day and if she has the time. You have to remember that these breeders usually work outside the home, show, train, have families, etc. BYBs/HVBs usually have their dogs work for them, they don't show, train or anything. So they have way more time to talk, (and sell).
> 
> None of this will ever change as long as the people don't see the whole picture when purchasing their puppy. Every puppy is cute, but you have to be aware of where that puppy came from. But most people don't care about that. All they care about is their own satisfaction and to h*ll with the rest. And the worst ones are the people that _are_ aware and do it anyway.  I just want to shake them...


Most people (I would think) have a certain amount that they can spend......why would they give out all kinds of personal info it they they can't afford the dog? Seriously? I certainly don't think asking if they have available dogs and the price is a crime. Nor does it make them uneducated. And yes I knew a couple of breeders who are not jaded.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Most people (I would think) have a certain amount that they can spend......why would they give out all kinds of personal info it they they can't afford the dog? Seriously? I certainly don't think asking if they have available dogs and the price is a crime. Nor does it make them uneducated. And yes I knew a couple of breeders who are not jaded.


_All kinds_ of personal information. What? Who said anything about all kinds of personal information? Every single one of my Danes were from reputable breeders. I wrote countless numbers of breeders in my search over the years and not one didn't respond to me. I always started off telling them a little about myself, my experience with Danes and why I was looking for a puppy. I never once asked if they had any puppies available _now_ or what their prices were. I was searching for a breeder not a "right now" puppy. 

Asking if they have puppies and what their cost is right off the bat is wrong, IMO. Of course you get to that during the conversation, but usually the breeder will provide that information without even having to ask them.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> _All kinds_ of personal information. What? Who said anything about all kinds of personal information? Every single one of my Danes were from reputable breeders. I wrote countless numbers of breeders in my search over the years and not one didn't respond to me. I always started off telling them a little about myself, my experience with Danes and why I was looking for a puppy. I never once asked if they had any puppies available _now_ or what their prices were. I was searching for a breeder not a "right now" puppy.
> 
> Asking if they have puppies and what their cost is right off the bat is wrong, IMO. Of course you get to that during the conversation, but usually the breeder will provide that information without even having to ask them.


What is the crime Seriously I don't mean to sound insensitive, however I don't get why it is such a big deal to ask those 2 questions.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Well.. as I have said in the past, my first golden was free and goldens #2 & 3 were purchased. Since I had been looking... I had a pretty good idea about how much those goldens would be. It probably wasn't until my third conversation with both breeders that I asked the purchase price... I knew about how much they would cost and in the scheme of my life, the cheapest part of my investment in my dogs is not how much they cost. Food, maintenance, training, showing, now that's where I really need the big bucks. Sooooo from my point of view, I cringe when the first words out of someone's mouth is "How much do you get for them?" We haven't even had the conversation of my dogs, their accomplishment, their clearances... It just puts me off a bit.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> What is the crime Seriously I don't mean to sound insensitive, however I don't get why it is such a big deal to ask those 2 questions.


Because your search should be _for a breeder_ and not just a puppy. Those questions should not, IMO, be the first things out of your mouth when engaging in a conversation with a prospective breeder. You should want to know about them, their breeding practices, etc. To ask a price and then discard them based solely on that element without finding out what goes into that price, (health testing, showing, other competitive venues), is counter productive to your search.

But, those people that only want a puppy for the best price...well, I guess that the answers to those two questions would be most important. To me, where my puppy came from and who was raising it, from the moment of it's conception to the first 8 critical weeks in it's development, were much more important than price and availability.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

kwhit said:


> Because your search should be _for a breeder_ and not just a puppy. Those questions should not, IMO, be the first things out of your mouth when engaging in a conversation with a prospective breeder. You should want to know about them, their breeding practices, etc. To ask a price and then discard them based solely on that element without finding out what goes into that price, (health testing, showing, other competitive venues), is counter productive to your search.
> 
> But, those people that only want a puppy for the best price...well, I guess that the answers to those two questions would be most important. To me, where my puppy came from and who was raising it, from the moment of it's conception to the first 8 critical weeks in it's development, were much more important than price and availability.


Many people simply don't have the money some of these breeders charge. If someone can't produce $1500 or whatever, then there is no point in talking to some of these breeders. I don't think a lot of better off people can conceive of the idea that for some people that's an unobtainable sum of money. So, people don't want to waste their own time and the breeders' time talking about a bunch of stuff if the price just isn't something they'll ever be able to meet. That's why for some people the first words out of their mouth do need to be about money.

Also, frankly, life is short, and some people don't want to wait years for a puppy, but want to get started relatively quickly while they're still young. 

I spent a few months looking and I was pretty close to the point by the end where I was going to have to give up on a golden puppy and pick between the ever available cheap or free pit bull puppy mixes, a slightly older more golden like breed like a lab or a lab mix, or not having a pet. At some point, you've got to pull the trigger on something or move on with your life. And there can be seasonal issues like you want to get your puppy in the summer time so the weather is still relatively nice when you have to cart it outside every 15 minutes or so (or it seemed  ) during house training.

I think some folks on this forum have a very different frame of reference than I do. I live in a world where money is very tight and the prices the "reputable" breeders charge are more than I'd be able to raise if I saved forever and borrowed money from everyone I knew. I also live in a world where you have to be committed to having a dog and doing the world involved to raise it, but where waiting around for years on someone who's trying to get her goldens to conceive puppies isn't something most people find reasonable.

I did actually e-mail as many of the "reputable" breeders I could find and none of them were willing to budge on their prices. And, yes, I included a little story about myself also in my e-mails. I got the impression that many of them were doing it as a business and that money was their paramount concern, contrary to what they'd claim.

Ironically, it was the people who'd have no clearances and basically do it as a little hobby with ads in the newspaper or online classifieds who'd be flexible on price and a lot easier to deal with. Those are the people you'd think would be "in it for the money", and they weren't- at least not to the same extent as the people who'd get all the clearances and say they were doing it to better the breed and blah, blah, blah.

I suspect one day if I'm looking for another puppy in the distant future, I'll again be buying from the casual puppy breeder, because they'll work with me to negotiate a price I can afford, without forcing me to sign a contract that I find unacceptable, and will let me drop by and pick out a puppy and take it home that day if I find one I like. The people the forum finds reputable have prices I can't afford, contractual obligations I find too restrictive, and often require a long wait and even decide what puppy _they _think is best for you instead of letting you play with the puppies and decide which one _you _think is best for you. 

Both as a child and as an adult, I selected my own puppy out of a litter by playing with them and forging a connection with one available puppy each time who became my cherished pet, and brought him home immediately with no conditions and at a price I could afford (The second time I had to borrow money). That's the type of experience I want. If the type of breeders this forum finds reputable could provide it, that'd be great-- obviously everyone prefers a dog with health clearances and pedigree. But if they can't provide it, then of course I'll go elsewhere in the future as I have in the past. I'd say the majority of the pet buying public is like me in that regard, or at least a large minority.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Well...you and I are obviously on opposite ends of the spectrum when it come to buying a puppy. I know that I'll never change your mind and my mind will never change. I will _always_ support breeders that health test, show and try to better the breed. If I don't go through a reputable/responsible breeder, I'll rescue.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> I did actually e-mail as many of the "reputable" breeders I could find and none of them were willing to budge on their prices. And, yes, I included a little story about myself also in my e-mails. I got the impression that many of them were doing it as a business and that money was their paramount concern, contrary to what they'd claim.
> 
> Ironically, it was the people who'd have no clearances and basically do it as a little hobby with ads in the newspaper or online classifieds who'd be flexible on price and a lot easier to deal with. Those are the people you'd think would be "in it for the money", and they weren't- at least not to the same extent as the people who'd get all the clearances and say they were doing it to better the breed and blah, blah, blah.


Did you ever consider why there is a difference in these two types of breeders' willingness to negotiate? The backyard breeder without titles, without clearances, without any monetary input into the dog outside food, water, and the most very basic vet care has nothing to lose by lowering their price. Every dollar they get for those puppies is pure profit. And I'm not so sure you can claim they negotiated with you to give you a price you could afford when you admit to borrowing the money to buy the dog. Why didn't they keep lowering their price until it was truly within the range that you had to give?

The hobby breeder who truly makes their dogs their "hobby," (also generally referred to as a reputable breeder on this forum) puts an exorbitant amount of time and money into evaluating their breeding stock through different venues of competition and by obtaining medical clearances on their breeding dogs. This requires money for the x rays and examinations for clearances, money for travel to competitions, money for training, money for entry fees, money for a handler in the case of conformation, etc, etc, etc. With the money they charge for pups, they still lose on every litter. They do this to preserve and improve (when possible) this breed that they love.... you know, all that blah, blah, blah you were referring to. It simply doesn't allow for the same financial flexibility as someone who has nothing invested in the dog.

Money is tight for everyone, you're not alone there. But some people believe that supporting those who preserve this breed is something worth saving for. It is possible to put money aside.... and I would hope that anyone who chooses to take in a pet has something available for emergency vet care or other unexpected difficulties that may arise (e.g. my rescue was just diagnosed with HD, we start rehab next week. Not money I had anticipated needing, but thankfully I have a dog-specific emergency fund to draw from until my tax return comes in). Believe me, that doesn't make me "well off" by any means. There is a difference between wealth and responsibility.

And the exaggerations about having to wait "years" to get a puppy from a reputable breeder are a little far fetched. A year? Maybe. Not willing to wait that long or the breeder truly isn't planning a litter for a few years? They will gladly refer you to someone else they know to be reputable who is planning a litter within a more suitable time frame. If they don't know anyone, they'll surely keep you in mind if they hear anything... but beyond that, it's up to the buyer to just keep trucking along as it should be.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

This breeder doesn't charge what most people in the area charge... Those discussions make me uncomfortable... Personally, I would breed litters all day long, but when it comes to dealing with prospective owners and discussing money, the money part makes me so uncomfortable....


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> Because your search should be _for a breeder_ and not just a puppy. Those questions should not, IMO, be the first things out of your mouth when engaging in a conversation with a prospective breeder. You should want to know about them, their breeding practices, etc. *To ask a price and then discard them based solely on that element without finding out what goes into that price,* (health testing, showing, other competitive venues), is counter productive to your search.
> 
> *But, those people that only want a puppy for the best price*...well, I guess that the answers to those two questions would be most important. To me, where my puppy came from and who was raising it, from the moment of it's conception to the first 8 critical weeks in it's development, were much more important than price and availability.


Really? If the price is completely out of what I am willing to pay......I should just waste everyone's time? I never said *best price* either. I searched for many breeders in my area the first time around. I had no problem asking those questions nor did the breeders have a problem answering them. By doing so I narrowed my search down to 3 reputable breeders in my area. I met with all of them. Saw how they were raised, met the parents, all the clearances.....etc. etc...Thankfully I asked and they answered because I would have been driving 3 hours out of my way just to find out I would not be purchasing thru others. A waste of everyones time....
I certainly don't see how that could offend anyone.....


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

I don't think I've ever had more than two conversations with any breeder without knowing if/when they were going to have puppies and also their puppy prices. Did I ever have to come out and ask? No. The way the conversations went, that information was given to me by the breeder.


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