# So many health issues. :(



## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Reading this forum and a couple of breeder forums, I swear I get depressed at all the health issues Golden Retrievers have. I feel extraordinarily lucky that I've had pretty healthy and robust dogs. But this breed that I love so much seems to have way more than its share of health problems, from orthopedic, to cancer, to PU, to throat and heart issues, to allergies, and the list goes on and on.

I love this breed. I'd never want another. But sometimes I think this breed has so many problems, and the answers are so elusive, that maybe for the good of the dogs there shouldn't be any more Goldens. Like the problems are just so deep in the breed that there are no answers. Which would be a tragedy for the world, because they are such amazing creatures.

I'm just lamenting all the health problems I read and hear about every, single day. It gets kind of hard. I suppose I'm just being too sensitive, but I am who I am.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Goldens do have a lot of health issues, but so many of us are excellent parents who do their best to provide their dogs with the highest quality of life possible. I think, despite Molly's allergies to most foods, she is having a great time being a lovable, goofy golden.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Other breeds still have it worse....  

We own goldens because know their health problems, have experienced the WORST of them, and generally know we can handle them. 

Other breeds.... 

Before I got Bertle, I interviewed a lab breeder and a ESS breeder. Both people were impressive and the kindest, nicest, types - and very definitely I would have loved having a breeder-owner relationship with them.  But they did not try hiding their own concerns about their breeds. 

With the labs - they have that EIC issue.  And then ESS's - the rage issue is a very real problem and generally is believed to be a form of epilepsy. 

I love springers and really was impressed with a puppy from that specific breeder (2 years old and already close to her CDX), but it was a scary thing going into a different breed and starting fresh with all new health issues that you've never experienced before.


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

I worry a lot about the health of my golden and the breed in general :-/


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I just think it's even more of a reason to fight for/support the breeders doing things right. While nothing is fool proof, it outrages me to see people breeding and not at the very least attempting to screen for testable things like hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, heart & eye issues or taking into account how various pedigrees "fit" together...we can only hope science can catch up on the cancer front.


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

I know some Goldens seem to be prone to health issue but so do many other breeds. FWIW, I've had 2 Goldens, one lived to be almost 14 y.o. with no real issues other than a sensitivity to corn, and the Golden I have now is 4+ y.o. and other than fall allergies, he's been very healthy so far.


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

I worry a lot about heath issues especially since I adopt. At the end of the day you can only do so much. I limit vaccines, don't use chemicals in our yard, limit the amount of flea medications I use (I'm lucky on flea issues), have a relationship with an incredible vet and feed the highest quality food I can. I admit I spend more on their food than I should. I do without some things because of that, but I want them to have the best chance for a healthy life so it is my choice. After doing all that it is out of my hands, but at the end of the day I know I've done everything possible.


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## lestat1978 (Oct 9, 2012)

I understand how you feel. Dobes are not a healthy breed either. The statistic is 50% of Dobes will develop Dilated Cardiomyopathy. The question is at what age. Cancer and CVI are big too. Because Ivan is back yard bred and has already had some health issues, I worry a lot. Rainbow bridge threads must be avoided at all costs.

Hopefully the fact that Maiya is well bred will be enough to stop me from worrying needlessly about her health. Otherwise my health would take a hit.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Although the health issues are heartrending, I will never give up on Goldens. When I consider all the dogs I know (both purebred and mix bred) and I can't say that Goldens are an less healthy as a breed or even as a group within all dogs. The major benefit that I can see we have as Golden people is that there are enough of us who are passionate about our breed and are willing to do what we can to try and resolve the health issues in the breed.

I am lucky that my Selli at 9 1/2 has been such a healthy girl and I pray that she remains so. My heart dog Dexy was not as healthy but I know he loved and enjoyed everyday of his life and I can't imagine a dog of any breed or mix who would not have gladly changed lives with him even with his elbow dysplasia and allergies.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I wonder, if someone outcrossed to a dog with an incredible immune system and then started breeding back to Goldens, keeping only the pups with the incredible immune systems, how many generations it would be before the AKC would consider registering a litter as Golden Retrievers.

Random morning thought.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

It is hard to stomach. And when researching pedigrees you realize that there are not any pedigrees without their issues. You pick your poison, so to speak. But that's why we have to support the breeders who are doing the best they can. Those looking at health, longevity, temperament and structural soundness and choosing pedigrees to further those goals. Those not breeding with the primary goal of winning in their chosen competitive venue. Those thinking about the families that will own their puppies and doing the best they can to give them health, sound, long lived wonderful family companions.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> It is hard to stomach. And when researching pedigrees you realize that there are not any pedigrees without their issues. You pick your poison, so to speak. But that's why we have to support the breeders who are doing the best they can. Those looking at health, longevity, temperament and structural soundness and choosing pedigrees to further those goals. Those not breeding with the primary goal of winning in their chosen competitive venue.  Those thinking about the families that will own their puppies and doing the best they can to give them health, sound, long lived wonderful family companions.


Yeah, truth is it's kind of hard to find breeders who go through all the rigors of breeding to the highest standards, and not have their primary purpose be competition. I imagine it would be possible to breed a litter that has super longevity and great health, but (1) those dogs might not have great conformation or field drive, and (2) the pool of pedigrees to research to a reasonable degree of certainty is limited to those who have bred to title their dogs. There are tons of dogs out there who never competed, never got clearances, don't have pedigrees you can really examine, but who were healthy into a very old age. Finding those dogs and making sure there's nothing hiding in their recent ancestors is functionally impossible. So the "best" breeders are left to breeding within their own circle of like-minded people. That's not entirely helpful to the breed.

I'm not saying this well.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

DanaRuns said:


> I wonder, if someone outcrossed to a dog with an incredible immune system and then started breeding back to Goldens, keeping only the pups with the incredible immune systems, how many generations it would be before the AKC would consider registering a litter as Golden Retrievers.
> 
> Random morning thought.


I'm confused by this quote. By outcrossing, are you talking about breeding to a different breed all together (maybe a foundation stock type?)?


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Brave said:


> I'm confused by this quote. By outcrossing, are you talking about breeding to a different breed all together (maybe a foundation stock type?)?


Yeah, I'm talking about breeding to something that is not a Golden Retriever.

Just random morning drivel.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

DanaRuns said:


> Yeah, I'm talking about breeding to something that is not a Golden Retriever.
> 
> Just random morning drivel.


I imagine the AKC would never allow that offspring to be registered, since the first outcrossing would not be purebred, the AKC registration ends there. Without having AKC registration on the dam and sire, no future offspring could be registered. 

I wonder since we already freeze semen, maybe harvesting viable eggs from bitches and waiting to see how their longevity turns out before fertilizing the healthiest eggs to the healthiest sperm and using a surrogate to whelp the puppies. 

I wonder though, as we get more and more selective in breeding, could we end up destroying the breed? Like the way GSD have those funky looking hindquarters? 

I'm not a geneticist or a breeder. I'm just rambling my thoughts.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

DanaRuns said:


> I wonder, if someone outcrossed to a dog with an incredible immune system and then started breeding back to Goldens, keeping only the pups with the incredible immune systems, how many generations it would be before the AKC would consider registering a litter as Golden Retrievers.
> 
> Random morning thought.


I think rather than introducing a new breed into the breeding pool (remember that all breeds, including mixes have their inherent issues common to all large breeds) and risking undesired results (mixed bag breedings), why not look more into breeding to those dogs who lack conformation, but have the health factor? 

I was eavesdropping on a discussion a while back on clearances - and there are breeders out there who feel that by removing so many dogs from the breeding pool because of failed clearances and adding yet more (more emphasis on eye clearances, etc), that it will do more harm than good to the breed. And this opinion was coming from very solid breeders who are very active in the breed. 

Eavesdropping on that discussion - I admittedly was feeling upset because I know one of those clearances that people regard as optional - particularly because of the lack of clarity as far as what the OFA is looking at - are elbow clearances. 

More than one breeder here in Michigan - who I would absolutely regard highly and otherwise recommend to anyone, they have bred dogs with elbow dysplasia. 

At the time I felt (and still vaguely do) that when it comes to choosing between health and conformation, that too many breeders will choose to breed a dog with a failed elbow over a dog with a curly coat or gay tail or some other aesthetic trait that they do not want in their breeding program.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Megora said:


> At the time I felt (and still vaguely do) that when it comes to choosing between health and conformation, that too many breeders will choose to breed a dog with a failed elbow over a dog with a curly coat or gay tail or some other aesthetic trait that they do not want in their breeding program.


I wonder if requiring ALL puppies to get clearances and to reserve the option of breeding any puppy from their program, would keep the options more open as to choosing the healthiest puppy from that litter. 

Could those conformation strikes like curly coats and gay tails be bred out? Like are they recessive? I'm sure it's more complicated than that. 

I think some of the health problems, like CANCER, have factors that are outside a breeder's control. Hopefully the Morris Foundation can shed some light on that enemy of mine.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Megora said:


> I think rather than introducing a new breed into the breeding pool (remember that all breeds, including mixes have their inherent issues common to all large breeds) and risking undesired results (mixed bag breedings), why not look more into breeding to those dogs who lack conformation, but have the health factor?


This is a great idea. My guess is that you can take healthy dogs and breed good conformation into them over generations, more easily than you can take dogs with good conformation and breed health into them. I just don't know that such a breeder as you describe exists. It seems to me that those who work really hard to create and document healthy dogs are those who compete. So I don't know where you find such a conscientious breeder who has dogs that lack conformation.



> At the time I felt (and still vaguely do) that when it comes to choosing between health and conformation, that too many breeders will choose to breed a dog with a failed elbow over a dog with a curly coat or gay tail or some other aesthetic trait that they do not want in their breeding program.


Well, fortunately all the breeders I know would not knowingly breed a dog that failed clearances.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Brave said:


> I think some of the health problems, like CANCER, have factors that are outside a breeder's control. Hopefully the Morris Foundation can shed some light on that enemy of mine.


I'll tell you one of the things I wonder about the Morris study and cancer. I wonder if they will be able to trace early death back to some dog(s) common to all those pedigrees for a particular cancer. Like, "We found that 76.8% of dogs that died of hemangiosarcoma prior to age 10 had BigGold's Raging Tumors as the dominant genetic influence in the dog at 2.05% COI" or some such finding. If so, that would give breeders a tremendous amount of useful information, and something concrete that they could do to try to better the breed's health. That's my hope.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Megora, I have heard veteran breeders discussing the same thing. Wondering if with all the testing we do we are further concentrating the gene pool which may unintentionally cause the expression of other undesireable genes and health issues. I am not experienced enough to know much about it but I can certainly see both sides of the argument.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Do you guys think that it would be a worthy cause to breed dogs who fail clearances but have longevity and no/slim cancer in their lines? Then pick the puppies from those litters who have terrific clearances to breed?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I have never seen a pedigree with no cancer in the line..... 

But seriously, I think that is the rationale. I just don't know enough about it or have enough experience to make an educated response to the question.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Megora, I have heard veteran breeders discussing the same thing. Wondering if with all the testing we do we are further concentrating the gene pool which may unintentionally cause the expression of other undesireable genes and health issues. I am not experienced enough to know much about it but I can certainly see both sides of the argument.


I wonder if the answer lies less in breeding to dogs that fail clearances and more to looking outside the circle of show/field dogs. There are tons of wonderful genes out there for the having.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

eta: Comment deleted . . . really added nothing to this discussion.


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## Bentman2 (Sep 30, 2013)

*Morris Animal Foundation Study*



DanaRuns said:


> I'll tell you one of the things I wonder about the Morris study and cancer. I wonder if they will be able to trace early death back to some dog(s) common to all those pedigrees for a particular cancer. Like, "We found that 76.8% of dogs that died of hemangiosarcoma prior to age 10 had BigGold's Raging Tumors as the dominant genetic influence in the dog at 2.05% COI" or some such finding. If so, that would give breeders a tremendous amount of useful information, and something concrete that they could do to try to better the breed's health. That's my hope.


 
Yes, I am trying to get Bentley into this study before they get the 3000 goldens they need. I wont live long enough to have another golden that would be affected by this study but I am all about finding out why the breed is so affected by health issues. I am confident and certainly praying that in the end this study will have some real good changes that can be implemented that will impact the breed in a real way. I think if that happens, then the benefit will crossover to other breeds as well.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Bentman2 said:


> Yes, I am trying to get Bentley into this study before they get the 3000 goldens they need. I wont live long enough to have another golden that would be affected by this study but I am all about finding out why the breed is so affected by health issues. I am confident and certainly praying that in the end this study will have some real good changes that can be implemented that will impact the breed in a real way. I think if that happens, then the benefit will crossover to other breeds as well.


I wouldn't worry too much about getting in.....things are going slowly in getting participants.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

IMHO the most reliable est is the Optigen. And still most reputable breeders do not do it. GRCA still does not consider it as a must. Actually I have seen "reputable" breeders from this site breeding their Itch Carrier dogs to a dog not tested who has siblings who were Itch affected. Elbow and Hip are not conclusive and you see a lot of reputable breeders producing puppies with elbow and hip dysplasia. I don't care how reputable they are, I stay away from them. Honestly I rather get a puppy from a backyard home breeder then a reputable breeder as the chances of dysplasia based on my own experience are less likely. I feel like many times those breeders get lost in the details, the names and get arrogant about their own knowledge (as one admitted to me that she bred before the age of 2 based only on "experience") and end up with a hell of a health issues in the puppies. 
Before anyone will jump on my comments, I do NOT dismiss the necessity of clearances. I am still doing all of them on my girls even though I will not be breeding; I simply do it so I know or guess on how to plan their future activities, even though sometimes I still fantasize about a Rose or Darcy pup. 
LOL I do wonder what a flat coat/golden retriever puppy would be like. I have often said that both my girls would complete a field retriever! Bit WOW wold it be a hand-full!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Honestly I rather get a puppy from a backyard home breeder then a reputable breeder as the chances of dysplasia based on my own experience are less likely.


1. Puppies from breeders doing full clearances are less likely to have the more severe cases of elbow and hip dysplasia. <- Elbow dysplasia is a big concern for me, particularly since my Danny had a very bad case. There are several grades of elbow dysplasia. He had the worst kind, both elbows. All that in addition to pano. I could not necessarily blame the breeder for that since he had been born around that time where people were just starting to talk more about elbow dysplasia being a hereditary condition and checking elbows was not the norm. FWIW - I do blame the breeder NOW since I know dogs from her have a history of elbow dysplasia and OCD in the shoulders. A lot of this is reflected on her not fully believing these issues are hereditary problems. 

2. Puppies from breeders who do not do clearances are not necessarily healthier on that basis - especially if those breeders participate in no activities where soundness is huge. Poor elbows and hips are the end of the road if you are interested in going beyond the backyard with your dog. 

3. In the cases of backyard breeders too, you have more cases of other conditions showing up since you have people breeding what they have as opposed to breeding only to improve the breed. That's dogs with cataracts being bred. That's dogs with renal dysplasia or similar conditions being bred. 

**** I felt this was very important to say, because you always have a ton of people looking in and looking for encouragement to pay less (or nothing) for the backyard bred dog. Even to the point of trying to make believe these dogs are better bred than those who were very selectively bred.

*** One interesting thing I got to add is I know somebody who routinely scopes other lines, even seeking out breeding dogs from Sweden. The very worst litter she ever had was from one of these breedings. The puppies were born with messed up hips and elbows - and were put to sleep. <- That rang a bell with me, because of course Danny had littermates put to sleep because of hips and elbows all being bad.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Claudia M said:


> . Honestly I rather get a puppy from a backyard home breeder then a reputable breeder as the chances of dysplasia based on my own experience are less likely.


I respect your opinion and by no means am I defending breeders that think they know it all.

But, I have to ask why (in your opinion) is it better to buy a dog from a BYB, who doesn't do any testing than someone who doesn't do a test or two?

How do you know that the Back yard breeder's dogs are not ichthyosis carriers or even ones that are affected?

Is it just because you don't like breeders' attitudes?

Just trying to understand your logic here.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Megora said:


> Poor elbows and hips are the end of the road if you are interested in going beyond the backyard with your dog.
> 
> 
> > Clever Megora, but that stands the same with many of the reputable breeders who still produce puppies with elbow and hip dysplasia despite all the hard work and clearances they do.
> ...


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

kfayard said:


> I respect your opinion and by no means am I defending breeders that think they know it all.
> 
> But, I have to ask why (in your opinion) is it better to buy a dog from a BYB, who doesn't do any testing than someone who doesn't do a test or two?
> 
> ...


Honestly, because you do more diligence in observing the parents (at least I do). 
And yes, the attitudes of most of the golden breeders (I can count 4 from this forum alone who do NOT have such attitudes) have honestly put a bad "Holier than thou" stay away from me stamp on them. 

Just look at the history of the golden retrievers and what they used to look like and what they do now. I went to a dog show recently and honestly I did not like one single golden there. None of them looked like golden retrievers.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Clever Megora, but that stands the same with many of the reputable breeders who still produce puppies with elbow and hip dysplasia despite all the hard work and clearances they do.
> We have seen many of them on this forum alone. We have seen puppies die shortly after birth. In fact our own well bred golden did not make it much into the backyard due to health problems.


Claudia, this is not me trying to be clever. I'm speaking the earnest truth as somebody who has been very involved with the breed since I was 11 years old. I'm much older now and my spare time through those years involved learning more about this breed. I remember crying to my mom and telling her I wanted to learn more about why these things happen to these dogs and stop them. 

Elbow and hip dysplasia does occur still in really nicely bred dogs, but look at the grade and the need for surgery. That is what you need to look at to decide whether the clearances and the drive to breed severe cases of elbow dysplasia and hip dysplasia out of these breeds has done any good. 

I have a golden with bilateral hip dysplasia and he (knock on wood) had been a very sound and solid dog. He had an injury 5 months ago with Bertie flipping him and messing up his back and pelvis and it's been a slow recovery since then, but his hips are not that much changed from what they were when he was 2 years old and got that mild dysplasia grade. This is a dog who is jumping in obedience and running through fields and swimming full force in summer, and flying through the snow in winter. And he still has beautiful movement - even with his injury.

If I were some hayseed who were into breeding dogs based on their agility and appearance - without doing clearances.... I would be doing a disservice to the breed by breeding a dog with bilateral hip dysplasia. 

And you realize that if I had not done xrays at 2 because of the performance aspect of his life and making sure I knew what I had, I'm sure I would be bragging to everyone about what great hips he has based on what I have seen this whole time. 

That's the type of issue I have with backyard breeders who do no clearances or who breed dogs with spotty clearance histories. 

My gut feeling is that you are taking the wrong turn as far as improving the breed if you are breeding a dog who was likely born with malformed hip sockets or whatever other condition that caused the dysplasia.

As far as the abilities of these dogs to do field work - you need to surround yourself with people who are out there in the field with their goldens who have both their conformation champion titles and are also master hunters. You can look at the golden who is tops in the breed right now - and she's done it in conformation and is getting into field and obedience. These are "idols" for the breed and I think a lot of the time what sets these dogs apart are the owners putting the training and work into titling these dogs. You can't win field or obedience titles on a "instinct" alone. You have to work with these dogs and shape them into working dogs. 

Even flat coated retrievers being a well-rounded breed - as far titling high in obedience and field in addition to conformation - they need a lot of training and active work on the part of their owners. And they don't always get to the highest levels because of handler error in training the dogs early on, or just the temperament of the dogs making it unlikely that they can handle the more difficult tests at the MH level, etc. 

Even with conformation - I showed my little guy this past weekend (and had a ball). The dogs all pretty much looked similar to him, except a bit fluffier as I am not the best groomer just yet (LOL). My little one was the only one in the ring who had flip-flips around his bum.  I'm very sorry that you don't think the dogs like him look like golden retrievers.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

My opinion Megora is that the breed has not been improved despite of all the clearances. The Goldens today are way far from what the goldens were bred to be. 
Yeah - Trooper was full of life as well but we could tell before he was one that his hips and elbows were marginal at best. He is the only one that had the Glyco Flex supplements on a regular basis and not even at the levels that you do with your guys. If is wasn't for the seizures he would have lived longer than 13 with that condition. To a person who does not know dogs he would have looked just fine.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I don't understand the negativity. Conformation dogs may look different than performance bred dogs but they still look like Goldens. I'm sorry you have had such bad experiences with breeders, although I can't agree that it's better to roll the dice with a byb than seek out a reputable breeder who is prioritizing the health, temperament and soundness of the puppies they produce. 


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Claudia, just out of curiosity, how many Goldens have you had? I ask only because the Goldens that my family had 30 years ago still resemble the Goldens who lay at my feet today. I don't think they look much different. 


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

we have had 5 goldens since the 80s. Always it so happened we had one golden and another breed ( mix rescued/adopted) but always in the retrieving arena. 
And Michelle - it is not negativity. Not sure why you see it that way. I simply do not see it as "conformation goldens" and "performance goldens". The goldens were not bred initially to be split into show vs field. They were bred for field or as someone else put it "primarily a hunting dog".


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

When I think Golden *Retriever* this is what I think of. 

http://www.grca.org/pdf/thegrca/featured-article.pdf


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Just look at the history of the golden retrievers and what they used to look like and what they do now. I went to a dog show recently and honestly I did not like one single golden there. None of them looked like golden retrievers.


Really? What did they used to look like? And when? Here's a Golden from 40 years ago in 1974. He's one of my puppy Gibbs' ancestors.










Here's Pluto, an influential dog from 1929, another dog behind Gibbs.










Do these not look like Goldens, to you? I'd suggest that the dogs you pointed to have changed from historical Goldens at least as much as the show dogs you disrespect. I know I'm not part of your discussion with Megora, but as much as I try to distance myself from your comments, I can't help but feel a little distressed by them. I know that many breeders worked hard over many generations to make my dogs, and I am extremely proud of my dogs. Sorry you don't think they look like Goldens, but I do.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I will say my experience has been with the backyard variety as I came into goldens through the rescue route. I've been surrounded with the 100+ pound variety to the lanky, skinny legs, pointy noses that I'm sadly seeing even more out of the BYB eastern european crop being produced in the US today. I saw my first well bred golden at the GRCA National in 2011. I was there for the rescue parade with my pup & as all of us with our rescues stood around one thing was apparently, clear our goldens certainly didn't look like those in competition (regardless of the venue). I was in awe to see these goldens move around the ring. I felt sad that because the puppy mill where my girl came from cut so many corners and had no clue what they were doing that my girl missed out on reaching her full potential. I wish that she didn't have 2 bad hips (she was bred to her father at least 2 times before being surrendered), have temperament issues, be hypothyroid and have a health issue that even the specialists can't figure out the origin of. Moreover, we often gloss over the fact the life of the breeder dogs that belong to the mills & BYBs. My girl lived in a dirt pen, she's terrified of men & essentially anything that moves. I've got BYB on Facebook messaging me on why it's ok for her dogs to live in rabbit style hutches. I've also seen others on the forum who purchased from breeders where the dogs were living outside or had just a shed for shelter--I just don't see how this is fair to the breed we love. While I'm giving my girl the best life I possibly can, I worry about her siblings and her offspring who was sold and a couple of which also became "breeders". My girl deserved better. They all deserve our absolute best.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> we have had 5 goldens since the 80s. Always it so happened we had one golden and another breed ( mix rescued/adopted) but always in the retrieving arena.
> And Michelle - it is not negativity. Not sure why you see it that way. I simply do not see it as "conformation goldens" and "performance goldens". The goldens were not bred initially to be split into show vs field. They were bred for field or as someone else put it "primarily a hunting dog".


I mentioned conformation Goldens because you said you were at a dog show . And I agree that it's unfortunate the breed has diverged into different styles. But I don't find the dogs of today to be all that different, appearance wise, from the dogs of yesteryear. 

Additionally, I think it's fine to have a preference on one's subjective interpretation of the written breed standard. But I don't think it makes other interpretations incorrect. There is a range of what is "correct" in terms of the breed standard, which allows for the diversity in style of dog. It doesn't make one or the other wrong. 


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Claudia M said:


> we have had 5 goldens since the 80s. Always it so happened we had one golden and another breed ( mix rescued/adopted) but always in the retrieving arena.
> And Michelle - it is not negativity. Not sure why you see it that way. I simply do not see it as "conformation goldens" and "performance goldens". The goldens were not bred initially to be split into show vs field. They were bred for field or as someone else put it "primarily a hunting dog".


 See, I see it as Negativity. You post the same thing about how you will go to a BYB before going to Reputable breeder ALL the time. You make all of these comments on how Reputable breeders who do clearances still have dogs that have HD and ED. You always comment that it is less likely to have a problem going with a BYB.

What is it, if it is not Negativity? There are a few breeders in my book (I mean maybe 2 or 3) who I would say think they are the greatest. But, I do respect them because they have been breeding for many years and have WAY more experience than I. 

But, the Majority of breeders that I have came across really are very SMART breeders and know lines very well. 

The breed was no healthier back then than it is now. It is just now we do more testings, so people know the COD or health issue.

I also can say that (IMO) although breeders that do clearances do have pups that are diagnosed with HD, the severity of the HD is not Severe. 
This is just my own personal experience (Just like you have yours). 

Is it doing harm to the breed to do these health testing? NO
Is it doing harm to the breed not to health testing? Yes

SO, why not do them?? 

There are breeders out there that do the right thing and really do try and I hate classifying (lumping) all reputable breeders with a holier than all attitude.

I am sorry you have had a bad experience(s) with them. I think the majority of people have had a bad experience with a BYB (I know I have). Maybe you and the reputable breeders that you have came in contact with are more alike than you think. Sounds like you are both passionate people.

I know someone a city over from me that is breeding his bitch with a cataract (diagnosed at age 4). Is that okay? How would anyone know that they dam has a cataract? They don't and unfortunately, the pet home suffer from that. It is sad.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

There is no data behind BYB dogs so you have absolutely no way of knowing the incidence of HD or ED behind them. If they were screened, I have a feeling the results would be staggering. Hip scores got dramatically better when reputable breeders started to screen for it, but it also cut the gene pool because breeders tossed out otherwise good dogs. Regarding genetic testing for Icth or PRA, we are throwing a lot of good dogs out of breeding programs. An affected dog can still be bred to a CLEAR. A carrier can be bred to a CLEAR. It is important for the testing to be done, but it seems that there are many more strains and there is always another form of PRA being discovered. It is an uphill battle... and when do you throw a dog out... after he is affected for Icth, a carrier for PRA-1, clear for PRA-2, and has excellent hips and elbows? I highly respect the breeders making the hard decisions and it is very EASY for "you" (collective) to sit in judgement.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Contientious breeding has really improved hip scores over the years. Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia . 

Having owned 15 plus goldens from varying backgrounds, I agree that while some of the breed specific health problems have cropped up, they have been managable with some work and wisdom, and for the most part our goldens have lived comfortably into their teens. 

Anecdotal evidence is one of the worst ways to draw conclusions about an issue- small sample, bias etc. However, I think about my senior dog Finn right now, with his Hips Excellent. He is such an active go-dog who can still jump up on the waterfall, or into the car/on the bed, and he moves so beautifully. I appreciate the positive side effects of thoughtful breeding in seeing this dog who is still a pleasure to himself even though he is an old man. He has a mild case of idiopathic epilepsy, but this does not suck joy from his every day life. Finn's athletic prowess as a senior dog I chock up to the thoughtful breeding program of Sunfire goldens, and not random luck. 

My dog Joplin, at age 14, could still run hard, swim for an hour, and hike 3 miles. His good hips, normal elbows, clear heart and eyes stood him in good stead in those later years. He didnt even have arthritis, and he made it until nearly 16. That was not an accident, but careful breeding by Tigathoe and Sundial goldens. 

I do fear cancer like everyone else who loves goldens, and the one dog we lost at 9 did die of cancer. Also, I have cried many tears on many OFA forms and the like, bc I had hoped to breed a particular dog who did not pass, and then was spayed/neutered bc of my conscience. I do not agree with the idea backyard breeding is just fine and better, so I did not breed those dogs. I find the statistics on dysplasias from scientific studies to be more persuasive than anecdotal comments, so I believe that breeding my dog with elbow dysplasia has a greater chance of producing puppies who have it than if he was clear. Of those failing dogs though, all live fun, fulfilling lives. Copley has Grade I elbows, but has never once showed any lameness. Some of these breed health problems are horrible on paper, but can be livable once the crisis period of diagnosis is over.

I am not minimizing that goldens have some awful health challenges, as I am sitting here with a PU dog resting his head in my lap while I type. With the exception of cancer though, I feel like most goldens can live a good life with swift, good treatment.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

For me, here is the truth about the BYB versus reputable breeder. Someone can breed two dog with no clearances, no titles, no pedigrees, and produce healthy puppies with no problems. Someone can breed two dogs with all their clearances, high titles, and 10 generation pedigrees and produce puppies that have bad elbows, bad hips, bad eyes, etc. But what are the ODDS??? And which ones will you hear about? You hear about the ones that "beat" the odds, the anomalies, the BYB dog that is perfectly fine or the well bred dog that is crippled. 

I have a well bred dog that needed bilateral elbow surgery. He was crippled. But it was not the breeders fault. And she is supporting us, even though our health guarantee is well past. 

Genetics is a difficult science. Very few things are simple recessive/dominant. But lets give our dogs the best chances possible.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

MarieP said:


> Genetics is a difficult science. Very few things are simple recessive/dominant. But lets give our dogs the best chances possible.


I very much agree with this. I also think it is very easy to armchair quarterback breeding and other breeder's choices. I have done it myself. I've discovered recently, while researching stud dogs for my girls, that actually doing it and trying to make the best breeding decision to promote longevity, health, soundness, temperament, and breed type is very much a balancing act. There is no perfect dog with a perfect pedigree. And there will always be a reason not to breed to a dog. 


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Please keep in mind that I said Backyard family breeder and not a puppy mill. Honestly the soundest and healthiest dogs we have had came from such breeding and from the mixed dogs we had. And the one well bred dog was a completely different story. 

So no, it is not negativity - it is simply based on personal experiences. 

I do not pretend to have the answer, but as I stated in my first comment the tests that are conclusive such as Optigen are very rarely done and often dismissed by the reputable breeders. In my opinion those would be the first to be required of any breeder. Heart and eyes second while elbow and hips are non-conclusive. 

As far as the most of the goldens today vs what they were initially bred to be, I have posted my personal image of what a golden should look like. Even DanaRuss posted the picture of Pluto which is completely different than what most goldens look like today. And along with the looks their hunting abilities have been lost as well.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Why is Optigen testing more important? I find it interesting that that you are willing to roll the dice on things like SAS, PU, hd and Ed but something like Ichthyosis is a deal breaker for you. 


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I also disagree with the statement that hips and elbows are non conclusive. That implies there is no benefit to doing the screening, which as was pointed out above, is not accurate. 


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## lestat1978 (Oct 9, 2012)

*Dalmatian Heritage Project*

Maybe I missed this skimming through all the posts, but puppies from an out-cross can eventually be registered with the AKC. According to About The Dalmatian Heritage Project - Dalmatian Puppy Breeding & Adoption - Hayward, California the AKC began registering the dogs in 2011.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

The separate issue of hunting ability keeps cropping up even though it is off topic to the OP. I spent quite a while writing a reply, but then I thought better of it bc it will derail the thread and also be controversial.


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## lestat1978 (Oct 9, 2012)

Also, when discussing "top dogs" not being able to compete in the field - what top dogs are being referred to? Maiya has FTCH and GMHR titles in her pedigree.

I freely admit when it comes to hunting and retrieving titles I don't know a lot, but I'm thinking the above count for something.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Please keep in mind that I said Backyard family breeder and not a puppy mill. Honestly the soundest and healthiest dogs we have had came from such breeding and from the mixed dogs we had. And the one well bred dog was a completely different story.
> 
> So no, it is not negativity - it is simply based on personal experiences.


Well, the most unhealthy dogs I've ever had, including my current Isabelle with bilateral HD, have come from BYB. So which of our personal experiences is more authoritative and compelling? Yours? Mine?



> I do not pretend to have the answer, but as I stated in my first comment the tests that are conclusive such as Optigen are very rarely done and often dismissed by the reputable breeders. In my opinion those would be the first to be required of any breeder. Heart and eyes second while elbow and hips are non-conclusive.


Wait a sec. So you prefer BYB because they are healthier, even though BYB do no testing at all. And then in the next breath you say certain tests should be "required." Sounds contradictory to my ears. Can you please explain?



> As far as the most of the goldens today vs what they were initially bred to be, I have posted my personal image of what a golden should look like. Even DanaRuss posted the picture of Pluto which is completely different than what most goldens look like today. And along with the looks their hunting abilities have been lost as well.


Speedwell Pluto looks to me much more like the Goldens of today that I think of (including my puppy Gibbs, whose picture is in my signature) than the dogs you linked to. My point in posting the photos of dogs gone by (the first of which you ignored, I noticed) was to demonstrate that the dogs you consider more true to the breed have changed dramatically from the earlier dogs you claim fealty to. Pluto would fit right in with my collection of Goldens, and no one would say there was a big difference in looks. And except for a few, all my dogs have been show dogs. My first Golden, bought by my parents when I was 10, was "primarily a hunting dog," but was also a show dog. Go figure, huh?

(_And now I must pause to post a gratuitous picture of her, just cuz!  This is the only photo I have of her, in 1966, when she was a puppy._)










(_We now return you to the thread already in progress._  )

But I don't want to confuse your "my Goldens are more Golden than your Goldens" argument with the purpose of this thread, which was to have a discussion about the health problems inherent in Golden Retrievers, so I won't comment on that argument anymore. This thread is about ALL our Goldens: show and field, BYB and hobby breeder, champion and pet. I love them all, and I'm concerned about them all.

And my screen name is DanaRuns, not DanaRuss. Or you can call me Dana, which is my name.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> Honestly the soundest and healthiest dogs we have had came from such breeding and from the mixed dogs we had. And the one well bred dog was a completely different story.
> 
> So no, it is not negativity - it is simply based on personal experiences.


I hate to disagree with you, but this is a pretty insignificant sample size. Again, it comes down to odds. I'm glad you have had good luck, but I also think that is what it is, luck. As sad as I am about my boy and his ED, I will be getting my next pup from the same breeder. Good breeders stack the odds in the buyers' favor. 

Not meaning to be harsh, but I think that using your limited personal experience to suggest that buyers should get their pups from BYB (who do limited, if any health testing) is very short-sighted and could bring heartbreak to future owners.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

lestat1978 said:


> Also, when discussing "top dogs" not being able to compete in the field - what top dogs are being referred to? Maiya has FTCH and GMHR titles in her pedigree.
> 
> I freely admit when it comes to hunting and retrieving titles I don't know a lot, but I'm thinking the above count for something.


That sounds like a reference to the top ranked dogs in the conformation ring. I don't think anyone could deny that a FTCH and GMHR are very impressive titles!!!!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Anecdotal evidence regarding health issues concerns me when it's being used as a reason to avoid prioritizing clearances. I have heard people, in the context of researching pedigrees, say "well all of it is a crapshoot so just breed to who you want." I disagree. 

Our Chloe (who now lives with my parents full time) was the product of many generations of health clearances and from a careful breeding. (Here is her pedigree for anyone who is interested in looking at it: http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=420647 Unfortunately she suffers from severe allergies and moderate HD. She is also out of standard on height and structurally has some other issues. She was a lovely puppy but in the certainly got the short end of the stick when it came to the genetic lottery. 

The experience of owning Chloe, and making the tough decision to place her with my parents so she could live a lower activity lifestyle, did not make me throw in the towel and decide clearances weren't worth it. It made me want to do better. Research pedigrees and find dogs with a strong history of clearances behind them and seek out those dogs. Focus on the longevity, health and temperament of potential stud dogs. I think these stories should encourage those of us who love this breed to do better, not just throw in the towel.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I think we can all agree to disagree on this one! It will do no good because it just goes round and round and then we will all fall down...


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I am hopeful that the Morris study will give us some more definite guidelines to improve the health of Goldens. But until then, what can be done?

What about enlarging the gene pool? One of the things I've daydreamed about is the notion of adding a BYB dog as a stud. Yes, it's risky. But suppose one found a nice BYB dog with at least some of the pedigree known. And what if the breeder offered to pay for (yeah, this is where a lot of you check out, I know  ) testing for the dog in lieu of a stud fee? And what if that dog passes clearances?

Would that be worth the risk of bringing new genes into your breeding program?


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

I've had quite the education since joining the Forum. Many things have frightened me but nothing like hemangiosarcoma.
Murphy is my third golden and hasn't had so much as an ear infection. Once he had the runs from rawhide which he was never given again. He'll be two in April.
My first Goldens Casey lived until 13 and Kelly 12. All have been the English type.
All came from breeders that did all the clearances which I know do necessarly mean things will be perfect. But so far so good.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> What about enlarging the gene pool? One of the things I've daydreamed about is the notion of adding a BYB dog as a stud. Yes, it's risky. But suppose one found a nice BYB dog with at least some of the pedigree known. And what if the breeder offered to pay for (yeah, this is where a lot of you check out, I know
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 But again, the issue is that while the stud dog may pass clearances - do you know what is behind him? What if his parents or grandparents were dysplastic, had cataracts, etc...?


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

lestat1978 said:


> Maybe I missed this skimming through all the posts, but puppies from an out-cross can eventually be registered with the AKC. According to About The Dalmatian Heritage Project - Dalmatian Puppy Breeding & Adoption - Hayward, California the AKC began registering the dogs in 2011.


Cool! Thanks for that link! 

Looks like (from skimming) that the outcrossing happened about the 1970s and the offspring wasn't recognized as purebred Dalmations until 2011 (and it took a passionate group of people from 2005-2011 to accomplish that!)

Quote from the link:


> Dalmatian Heritage Project began as an effort to increase the population of Dalmatians that come from a remarkable bloodline that was developed in the 1970s by Robert Schaible, PhD. Dr. Schaible’s line produces the only Dalmatians in the world today that are free of a metabolic defect that can lead to urinary tract problems.
> 
> For many years, Dr. Schaible's line was considered to be controversial because it began with a breeding of one Pointer to one Dalmatian. That breeding had to be done because the gene for normal uric acid metabolism was missing in all known Dalmatians. The only way to get the normal gene back into the Dalmatian breed was to get it from another breed.
> 
> ...


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

My first golden was from a BYB, she at 6 months old,need both hips, operated on, and died at not quite 9 years old,of cancer.


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

Dana,

This is an interesting topic. I know a few breeders who cross hunting and conformation lines to build their line as they want a dog who can do it all. I wont even pretend to understand all the variables that go into this. I do know that health and temperament are first and foremost in their minds and they also want to see if by combining the two they can strengthen the health issues in their lines. One of them has just started conformation with one of her dogs....I haven't spoken to her in a while so not sure how her dog is doing....but she is very excited......

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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

DanaRuns;4030026
What about enlarging the gene pool? One of the things I've daydreamed about is the notion of adding a BYB dog as a stud. Yes said:


> There are some dogs out there that came from relatively unknown pedigrees that have contributed greatly to the breed. This dog is one of them: Pedigree: GMHR Phoebe's Prize Piponia CDX MH AX AXJ WCX CCA VCX OD
> 
> She produced a lot of nice working dogs including Push. She is just one example. There are probably many very nice dogs out there that come from less than ideal circumstances or pedigrees that could offer a lot in terms of diversity to the breed. Is this enough? Probably not, but a step in the right direction.
> The cancer rate in Goldens is alarming and maybe we will come to find that the answer is to outcross to another breed and expand the gene pool.


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## lestat1978 (Oct 9, 2012)

This article lists some dogs doing both. Maybe not the creme de la creme, but. . . Breed Profile: The Golden Retriever - Gun Dog Magazine


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

This might sound stupid, but WHAT breed doesn't have a high rate of cancer that would be compatible with a Golden?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Brave said:


> This might sound stupid, but WHAT breed doesn't have a high rate of cancer that would be compatible with a Golden?


Not a stupid question at all, I was thinking the same thing.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I would buy from a good breeder, that does the clearances,and take my chances, no breed is like a golden.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Not a stupid question at all, I was thinking the same thing.


Oh dear... this might get me some frowns, but wouldn't it be ironic if poodles were the answer? All the times I've complained about doodles. BUT they are a sporting dog (I think), so they should have similar traits as a golden.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Brave said:


> Oh dear... this might get me some frowns, but wouldn't it be ironic if poodles were the answer? All the times I've complained about doodles. BUT they are a sporting dog (I think), so they should have similar traits as a golden.


The bad thing about breeding into another breed is we would be opening up another can of worms!! Because every breed has their problems and Poodles are not the healthiest either


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Megora said:


> But again, the issue is that while the stud dog may pass clearances - do you know what is behind him? What if his parents or grandparents were dysplastic, had cataracts, etc...?


I don't know. I said it's risky. But, if you find a dog that passes (and I'm including Optigen in this little fantasy), who is otherwise correct and healthy and long-lived, even if you don't know everything behind that dog, would it be worth the risk in order to enlarge the gene pool?

I got this bitch I'm planning on using as a foundation bitch. I ask myself, would I want to do that? And my answer to myself is, "No, at least not on her first litter. Maybe after I've bred her two or three times. Maybe her last breeding I'd be willing to take that chance." But I only have one breeding girl, and am just starting out, so perhaps others would be more adventurous. 

This I'll say: I'd love to be known as the breeder bringing new genes into a sound breeding. Of course, it might take a few generations to stabilize things and get consistency. But wouldn't that be worth it?


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

kfayard said:


> The bad thing about breeding into another breed is we would be opening up another can of worms!! Because every breed has their problems and Poodles are not the healthiest either


I agree. It's very risky. 

Maybe as the years pass, and science becomes more sophisticated in genetically identifying hereditary problems, we can genetically modify Goldens to eliminate these health problems. Just a thought.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> Please keep in mind that I said Backyard family breeder and not a puppy mill. Honestly the soundest and healthiest dogs we have had came from such breeding and from the mixed dogs we had. And the one well bred dog was a completely different story.
> 
> So no, it is not negativity - it is simply based on personal experiences.


This has been my experience without negativity also.

Health problems in goldens is a reality and I don't dwell on something that is out of my control. That is what "my" experience has taught me.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I don't think this thread should just be based on experiences...but rather research. If you can only imagine how many horror stories Reputable breeders get from people that have purchased from a BYB. The stories from those far outweigh the stories from Reputable breeders IMO. 

I mean if this was an experience thread, let's just say that I have 3 goldens from reputable breedings and all of mine have good hips, normal elbows, Normal Eyes and Normal cardiac. The one rescue that came from a BYB had Severe HD by 13 months and died of an unknown cause at 18 months.

So, I guess I will base my knowledge and beliefs on experience....

But, it is not all about experience.


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## lestat1978 (Oct 9, 2012)

Health aside, there are a number of other potential downsides to BYBs.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> This has been my experience without negativity also.
> 
> Health problems in goldens is a reality and I don't dwell on something that is out of my control. That is what "my" experience has taught me.


 
Let me ask this.

Obviously, "Health problems in goldens is reality," what are you doing to try to change it? 

Or do you believe that it doesn't matter what we do and what studies we do, that goldens will ALWAYS face the same problems?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kfayard said:


> Let me ask this.
> 
> Obviously, "Health problems in goldens is reality," what are you doing to try to change it?
> 
> Or do you believe that it doesn't matter what we do and what studies we do, that goldens will ALWAYS face the same problems?


Shouldn't your question be directed at a breeder?


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Shouldn't your question be directed at a breeder?



Nope it shouldn't. So your opinion buying from a BYB is helping the breed? I know several breeders who are trying so hard to do what is right for the breed.

I think breeders AND buyers both ave to try and fight to do right.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kfayard said:


> Nope it shouldn't. So your opinion buying from a BYB is helping the breed? I know several breeders who are trying so hard to do what is right for the breed.
> 
> I think breeders AND buyers both ave to try and fight to do right.


 
I just shared my experience.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Brave said:


> I agree. It's very risky.
> 
> Maybe as the years pass, and science becomes more sophisticated in genetically identifying hereditary problems, we can genetically modify Goldens to eliminate these health problems. Just a thought.


Oh NO, not GMGs! LOL

(Genetically Modified Goldens)

Sorry, trying to lighten the mood


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

:smooch:


Wyatt's mommy said:


> I just shared my experience.


Your experience from buying from BYB? Oh ok....

Ok let me reword my question... What do BYBs do to try and help the breed?


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

MarieP said:


> For me, here is the truth about the BYB versus reputable breeder. Someone can breed two dog with no clearances, no titles, no pedigrees, and produce healthy puppies with no problems. Someone can breed two dogs with all their clearances, high titles, and 10 generation pedigrees and produce puppies that have bad elbows, bad hips, bad eyes, etc. But what are the ODDS??? And which ones will you hear about? You hear about the ones that "beat" the odds, the anomalies, the BYB dog that is perfectly fine or the well bred dog that is crippled.
> 
> I have a well bred dog that needed bilateral elbow surgery. He was crippled. But it was not the breeders fault. And she is supporting us, even though our health guarantee is well past.
> 
> Genetics is a difficult science. Very few things are simple recessive/dominant. But lets give our dogs the best chances possible.


Wow - a lot has been added while I was working. 

We do not have to agree in order to express our opinions and be cordial. So I really appreciate your responses and the responses like yours. 

I am glad that others have also chimed in as maybe trying a BYB family dog as a stud and diversify the pool! 

Rose is the first one that I am doing all the tests on. We have not dome any tests on the previous ones but they all lived a long and quite healthy life. I may be biting my tongue/fingers once that I am done with all the tests (so far she has only passed the Optigen and Eyes; still have the OFFA/Pennhip and heart - I decided to do both OFFA and Pennhip as they cover two different areas). 

Your breeder is a very nice breeder and most of the dogs I have posted in my link were bred by her. In fact, the only goldens that made it to the 2013 National Retriever Championship this year were bred by her. And who knows she may be. I think there is a total of 7 or 8 breeders on this forum (I just figured from this discussion that DanaRuss is a breeder). 

While my experience is limited I am also combining my experience to other BYB dog owners and other people with well bred goldens experiences. 

I am in no way in favor of puppy mills but I would certainly not discredit the family BYBs while I try to encourage them to do the clearances and hope to grow the gene pool. Some listen, some do not and the ones who do not I just write them off as well. 

I applaud you for going back to the same breeder. I could not. But that is a personal choice that has absolutely nothing to do with the breeder.

Bottom line is that we think we know but do not really know.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kfayard said:


> :smooch:
> 
> Your experience from buying from BYB? Oh ok....
> 
> Ok let me reword my question... What do BYBs do to try and help the breed?


No my outcome with both rep and BYB.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

TrailDogs said:


> ID=11400]Pedigree: GMHR Phoebe's Prize Piponia CDX MH AX AXJ WCX CCA VCX OD[/url]


That is one GORGEOUS GOLDEN!


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Claudia M said:


> Wow - a lot has been added while I was working.
> 
> We do not have to agree in order to express our opinions and be cordial. So I really appreciate your responses and the responses like yours.
> 
> ...


Yes one person has chimed in favor for BYB. We get it, you two think that BYB pups are just as healthy as reputable breeder's pups. There is NOTHING anyone can say to you two that will ever change your minds. Just like you will not change my mind. 

But the question I still asked was "what is it that BYB do to try and improve the health that Goldens are facing today?"

Putting hips and elbows aside, are the breeding dogs with PU, cataracts, SAS, Seizures, ich?? We don't know...

How is that a positive thing??


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

kfayard said:


> :smooch:
> 
> Your experience from buying from BYB? Oh ok....
> 
> Ok let me reword my question... What do BYBs do to try and help the breed?


I will reply to your question with another question! And once again I am making a difference between a puppy mill and a BYB. A BYB that is interested in the health and progress of their puppies is not a puppy mill in my mind. 

Many do not know about health clearances and I believe that it is us who need to try to mentor them by not alienating them but maybe by showing what their offspring can be capable of and also keep them appraised of health issues or clearances passed. 

When I first came onto this forum I made the mistake of mentioning the possibility of breeding Rose. I guess I am going to make that mistake again! 
Not really as I am not planning to breed her due to her weight being at 67 and height at 23 1/4 which puts her out of standard; otherwise, her temperament, train-ability and the few health clearances are still making me sometimes wish to have a puppy just like her. But if I was, I was going to also do the clearances on her parents as payment to the breeder to help me with bringing the puppies into the world as I have never ever done it.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

kfayard said:


> Yes one person has chimed in favor for BYB. We get it, you two think that BYB pups are just as healthy as reputable breeder's pups. There is NOTHING anyone can say to you two that will ever change your minds. Just like you will not change my mind.


*I was more referring to this comment:* _"There are some dogs out there that came from relatively unknown pedigrees that have contributed greatly to the breed. This dog is one of them: Pedigree: GMHR Phoebe's Prize Piponia CDX MH AX AXJ WCX CCA VCX OD

She produced a lot of nice working dogs including Push. She is just one example. There are probably many very nice dogs out there that come from less than ideal circumstances or pedigrees that could offer a lot in terms of diversity to the breed. Is this enough? Probably not, but a step in the right direction.
The cancer rate in Goldens is alarming and maybe we will come to find that the answer is to outcross to another breed and expand the gene pool."_

*I am really not going to fight or argue and no one is out there to change anyone's mind - other than post their own experiences and opinions.*


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> I just figured from this discussion that DanaRuss is a breeder.


Dear Chlamydia M:

Once again, my screen name is DanaRuns. Or you can just call me Dana.

Thank you.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

DanaRuns said:


> Dear Chlamydia M:
> 
> Once again, my screen name is DanaRuns. Or you can just call me Dana.
> 
> Thank you.


Sorry - I was going by memory Dana! Correction imprinted in mind! 
Sometimes there is a typo or just a memory picture - nothing intentional on my part! As per above you can certainly see how easily that can happen.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> Sorry - I was going by memory Dana! Correction imprinted in mind!
> Sometimes there is a typo or just a memory picture - nothing intentional on my part! As per above you can certainly see how easily that can happen.


LOL! Better to be called Russ than a transmitted sexual disease. Who does that by mistake?:no:


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> LOL! Better to be called Russ than a transmitted sexual disease. Who does that by mistake?:no:


I tried my best to answer it in a nice way and give the benefit of the doubt that it was a cell phone that did it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Claudia, try to keep in mind a lot of people are very active at dog clubs and very welcoming of all puppy people that come in through the doors and take classes with their pups - regardless of the dogs' backgrounds. 

I believe the local breeders have been huge in getting the information out to people about clearances - especially getting the eyes checked every year. The golden retriever club supported eye clinics over here have been hugely attended by all kinds of people. 

That is not the same as encouraging people who are thinking about breeding their dogs because they are pretty or are nice dogs. You have a lot of people who walk up to anyone with a pretty dog and are asking about puppies. <- I've had those questions and generally am very quick to edu-ma-cate people about why I would not breed Jacks, for example. 

This included a breeder who was besotted with Jacks - who despite his "ooh thunderstorm" issues has the look, temperament, and drive that has had a lot of people turning their heads and watching him. 

With these people, I've generally immediately disclosed his hip dysplasia, thyroid problem, tail kink, and noise phobia issues - each of which on their own would be solid reasons not to breed him. Also, while he's gotten his eye cerfs every year without a bad mark on them - I know his eye-lids are too loose and expose the eyes to irritants. 

You have to be very critical of what is breed standard and what is ideal for the breed. Even with Bertie, I'm not committed to breeding him after he gets titles and clearances (which will happen). And he's a boy and there's really very limited physical risk to him as far as using him for breeding. It's all behavioral stuff I'm concerned about. It's nice having dogs who don't have a clue. 

With females - the issue is you are putting your dog's life in danger. And there better be a good doggone reason to do so. Your dog should be outstanding, or her background should totally be speaking. 

You've watched the puppy inquiry threads on this forum, right? People are bringing up the dog's clearances on offa.org and looking much further back than parents. You have 5 or more generations that people are going to scrutinize. <- I did it myself when I was looking for a puppy the last 2-3 years. 

The exceptions to that would be a dog who _has_ all her clearances, and she _has_ shown herself to be outstanding as a performance dog. Meaning the owner is very active and not only belongs to the local clubs, but is loading title after title on that dog before they breed her. 

That is not the same thing as a backyard breeder or somebody breeding a backyard bred dog. 

That is hugely different that breeding a nice looking dog with a sweet temperament - who shows potential, but has not proven anything.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Oh NO, not GMGs! LOL
> 
> (Genetically Modified Goldens)
> 
> Sorry, trying to lighten the mood


Some days I think about cloning Bear. Maybe not neutering his clone until after 18 months and see what happens. Does his ACLs tear? Will we repeat everything with Bear (v2) that we already have with Bear (v1). 

I'm not a breeder. Nor a geneticist, but these kind of musing really interest me. I seem to remember when Dolly the sheep was cloned, there was a whole lot of controversy around it. Parts of me think cloning Goldens might give us insight into what exact causes things on a genetic level. 

I think there are still environmental concerns (like BPA plastics, pesticides, etc) but if we could get to the bottom of the genetic links to certain diseases, I think we would have shot the breed into the stars! 

I was commenting on a different forum about the early de-sexing having preliminary links to higher risks for cancers and joint problems,and this other poster came on and told me it was a cop-out for bad breeding practices. But I digress. Back to the scheduled programming.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

yup Kate - I do not disagree with you. It is definitely different between breeding a male or a female. Also by edu-ma-cating (I like that) the questioners you also spread the word about the health problems our dogs have.


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## Melfice (Aug 4, 2012)

What makes a breeder a "backyard breeder" by the way? They don't do any tests, and just sell the puppies?


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

the single most important thing we can do individually with the dogs we already have (since we can't change their genetics) is to keep them lean and fit. 

I understand that no studies show a clear relationship between fancy diets or supplements and longevity in dogs, but there is very clear evidence that fat, out of shape dogs die younger.

And most goldens I've met were fat.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

DanaRuns said:


> I am hopeful that the Morris study will give us some more definite guidelines to improve the health of Goldens. But until then, what can be done?
> 
> What about enlarging the gene pool? One of the things I've daydreamed about is the notion of adding a BYB dog as a stud. Yes, it's risky. But suppose one found a nice BYB dog with at least some of the pedigree known. And what if the breeder offered to pay for (yeah, this is where a lot of you check out, I know  ) testing for the dog in lieu of a stud fee? And what if that dog passes clearances?
> 
> Would that be worth the risk of bringing new genes into your breeding program?


One of the problems with that is that when you look back 24, 30 generations, there is such a severe bottleneck both on the field and show sides. Even a BYB with dogs unknown in 5 or ten generations will start to show familiar names as you go back. 

Some good breeders have done some careful importing from Australia. I am not knowledgable about that, but I know that is why they did it- to truly outcross.


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## Melfice (Aug 4, 2012)

Pudden said:


> the single most important thing we can do individually with the dogs we already have (since we can't change their genetics) is to keep them lean and fit.
> 
> I understand that no studies show a clear relationship between fancy diets or supplements and longevity in dogs, but there is very clear evidence that fat, out of shape dogs die younger.
> 
> And most goldens I've met were fat.


Yep I agree with this just like humans need to follow a good diet too. Since I got my dogs, I have been A LOT more active (for them and myself), and I have lost wt etc. 

I keep my pups lean and fit, and I watch what I feed them too. No treats unless it's apples, pears and sweet potato (their favorites). Also bananas and other good fresh treats. High protein food with low carbs and I will be cooking fresh food for them soon too

Starting this weekend, I'm going to go hiking with my pups and they will be going back to the beach too. 

Diet has a lot of to with a dog's health, and I want my pups to live as long as they can. So I'm doing whatever needs to be done to help with that.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

Brave said:


> I think there are still environmental concerns (like BPA plastics, pesticides, etc) but if we could get to the bottom of the genetic links to certain diseases, I think we would have shot the breed into the stars!


If environmental issues were the reason for the high rates of cancer it would be the same across all breeds and mixed breeds. When certain breeds stand out as being prone to cancer like Goldens, Flat Coats, Rotties,for example, you start to look for other causes such as genetics.
Sometimes I feel like it is the elephant in the room with this breed when breeders and owners avoid listing the COD and dates of death in K9data. I admire those who are up front and honest with this type of information because it can only help the breed in the long run.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Melfice said:


> What makes a breeder a "backyard breeder" by the way? They don't do any tests, and just sell the puppies?


Ma and Pop types breeding their dogs to a friend's dogs to make puppies. 

Hobby breeders are those who generally belong to the local clubs and participate in competitive events with their dogs. Reputable breeders among them are getting full clearances on these dogs and not just breeding everything they get their hands on.

Commercial breeders are those who do all the clearances and pick and choose which dogs they breed to or with, but they are primarily breeders. They may participate in events, but generally have puppies every season and generally may have 2 litters per season. My Jacks came from one of those. These are not puppy mills, as the dogs generally receive quality care, training, and love and are retired to pet homes by the time they are 3-4 years old. 

Puppy mills - are those commercial breeders who basically do nothing but breed the dogs, and generally with little regard to the dogs needs and care. There is a show breeder here in Michigan who similar to her mentor has a kinda reputation of being a puppy mill. This because they have a ton of dogs who receive very little care and attention outside of when they are being shown or bred. The mentor has the dogs in two houses, I suspect to avoid the accusation of being a hoarder. Last I heard - she had over 40 dogs.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

TrailDogs said:


> If environmental issues were the reason for the high rates of cancer it would be the same across all breeds and mixed breeds. When certain breeds stand out as being prone to cancer like Goldens, Flat Coats, Rotties,for example, you start to look for other causes such as genetics.
> Sometimes I feel like it is the elephant in the room with this breed when breeders and owners avoid listing the COD and dates of death in K9data. I admire those who are up front and honest with this type of information because it can only help the breed in the long run.


At first this sounds like a good justification for excluding environmental factors but I think it will turn out to be a complicated combination of things. It maybe that the environment for the typical Golden, Flat Coat, Lab or other cancer prone breed, is not just like the environment for other breeds like poodles, yorkies or whatever, and that there are things in that environment interacting with genetic factors that result in cancer.

Have to agree that it would really be helpful if owners and breeders would enter the DOD and COD as dogs on k9data are lost.


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## Melfice (Aug 4, 2012)

Megora said:


> Ma and Pop types breeding their dogs to a friend's dogs to make puppies.
> 
> Hobby breeders are those who generally belong to the local clubs and participate in competitive events with their dogs. Reputable breeders among them are getting full clearances on these dogs and not just breeding everything they get their hands on.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the information.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

My vet uses the cliched but I think true statement that "genetics loads the gun, and environment pulls the trigger." 

There are so many different ways dogs are stressed in the modern world, and chronic stress is wearing for immune systems.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Jill - who is the cute snow flyer?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

That is Copley. He is a flying dog.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> I tried my best to answer it in a nice way and give the benefit of the doubt that it was a cell phone that did it.


Nope. I did it on purpose. I wanted to get your attention, since I had asked you earlier in this thread to get my name right. And Chlamydia was the first thing that came to mind when I tried to think of another word like Claudia, and I thought it was funny. Probably says something about the twisted way my brain works.  And it did get your attention!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

With regard to BYBs, the thing that made me start this thread in some heartache was reading through thread after thread in this forum from owners who bought their puppies from BYBs or mills, and the tremendous and heart-wrenching stories of illness, behavioral problems, and early death that bombarded me. There are so few positive threads, and so many about problems that are clearly minimized by careful breeding, from orthopedics, to eyes, to hearts, to temperaments, to you name it. For someone like me who is very sensitive to the suffering of Goldens (among other things), some days it's actually really hard to come to this forum, because every day the forum is replete with threads on cancer, and poor temperaments, and seizures, and ACLs, and eye problems, and allergies, and digestion problems, and thyroid problems, and MMM, and SAS, and on and on. Some days, that "Top 10" threads section is _all_ bad medical stuff, and those days I just close the site down without looking.

I know it's anecdotal, but with so many reports here of problems by people who bought poorly bred Goldens who come here searching for help -- or even worse, for those who come here seeking comfort after losing their companion too soon -- I just can't help but think we need to be more careful, not less.

Just my humble opinion, emotionally based, and not the result of any scientific study. Sometimes coming here makes me worry about my own dogs so much I turn off the internet and go hug them. Which is probably what I should be doing anyway. 

So here's a cute puppy picture.










I don't want to have to worry that they will die of or be disfigured by some horrible and preventable disease.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

TrailDogs said:


> If environmental issues were the reason for the high rates of cancer it would be the same across all breeds and mixed breeds. When certain breeds stand out as being prone to cancer like Goldens, Flat Coats, Rotties,for example, you start to look for other causes such as genetics.


I think in the end, we will find that there is a myriad of causes of cancer, both genetic, and environmental. I think it's easier to dissect the genetic part vs the environmental part, because the environment has so many variables, factors, etc. That's why I think it's good to try to get to the bottom of the genetic causes. If we could isolate the genetic contribution, we would be able to (hopefully) breed AWAY from that. Or find a way to test for markers. Or maybe even end up with GMGs.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

DanaRuns said:


> Nope. I did it on purpose. I wanted to get your attention, since I had asked you earlier in this thread to get my name right. And Chlamydia was the first thing that came to mind when I tried to think of another word like Claudia, and I thought it was funny. Probably says something about the twisted way my brain works.  And it did get your attention!


well, that was very ill mannered and proves my point that some people are just downright mean intentionally. To assume that someone is reading every post or to assume that someone has intentionally misspelled your screen name "completes" a character. 
I just don't know if I can give you the benefit of the doubt this time that you just somehow think it is funny!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> well, that was very ill mannered and proves my point that some people are just downright mean intentionally. To assume that someone is reading every post or to assume that someone has intentionally misspelled your screen name "completes" a character.
> I just don't know if I can give you the benefit of the doubt this time that you just somehow think it is funny!


Well, I apologize, then. I first brought your attention to my name in a post you actually responded to. And then you continued to call me the wrong name. So, I got your attention. I'm sorry I offended you. I wasn't being mean.

I did think it was funny, I still think it was funny, but I'm sorry I said something to offend you. Please forgive me?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I read the health section on a regular basis and I don't see anywhere that points towards the majority being from BYB's at all. I do have a problem with a lot of the problems being referred to as common.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

DanaRuns said:


> Well, I apologize, then. I first brought your attention to my name in a post you actually responded to. And then you continued to call me the wrong name. So, I got your attention. I'm sorry I offended you. I wasn't being mean.
> 
> I did think it was funny, I still think it was funny, but I'm sorry I said something to offend you. Please forgive me?


I am not that easily offended - no harm done!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

TrailDogs said:


> If environmental issues were the reason for the high rates of cancer it would be the same across all breeds and mixed breeds. When certain breeds stand out as being prone to cancer like Goldens, Flat Coats, Rotties,for example, you start to look for other causes such as genetics.
> Sometimes I feel like it is the elephant in the room with this breed when breeders and owners avoid listing the COD and dates of death in K9data. I admire those who are up front and honest with this type of information because it can only help the breed in the long run.


I am of the opinion that we all are born with cancer cells and it comes out to our immune system and somewhat the environment that allows those cells to take over the body. We are taking and also been giving to our dogs the Mannatech Ambrotose for the immune system. We started when Trooper started his pettite mal seizures at the age of 4 and he was also fighting allergies. It was back in the day when people were still disputing the Ambrotose qualities. Glad people like Dr Ben Carson has finally diffused them.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

One of the only things about owning a golden I dislike is my immediate fear that anything wrong is cancer. One of the things I do like is the momentum and caring of the parent club, and research projects, foundations, and open discussion about cancer. 

Whenever I have lost a golden, I have made a donation to the Zeke Cancer Fund to kind of memorialize the dog for myself, and I think that is one constructive thing that hasnt been mentioned yet that we can do- give what we can to good research projects. 

The Bernese Mountain Dog Club has been very organized and made real headway with the cancer to which their breed is prone. 

Now that Copley has PU and his mother does too, I have been able to talk with Wendy Townsend running the big study of it in goldens, and I am going to make the cross country drive to Purdue so he can be in the study. Hard as it is to think about it, and how much it makes my stomach lurch to write this, when he dies I will donate his eyes to them. Finn and Tally are both in an Idexx Study trying to see if there is a link between Anaplasmosis and Lymphoma.

In my will, I focused a piece on cancer research for goldens.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Mayve said:


> Dana,
> 
> This is an interesting topic. I know a few breeders who cross hunting and conformation lines to build their line as they want a dog who can do it all. I wont even pretend to understand all the variables that go into this. I do know that health and temperament are first and foremost in their minds and they also want to see if by combining the two they can strengthen the health issues in their lines. One of them has just started conformation with one of her dogs....I haven't spoken to her in a while so not sure how her dog is doing....but she is very excited......
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I wish this were simple. I have a field dog I adore, who lives in my town and trains at the trainng center I own. UCDX HR SR Sand Dancer's XX MTB Ranger UDT MH WCX ** . He is my dog Finn's unlce, has wonderful clearances with good ones behind him, and a wonderful owner. I would love to breed Ranger to my GCH girl Lush. We have talked and talked about it, BUT, what if we just dampen down and dillute the good qualities each dog brings, and weaken their weaknesses? Great show homes will not want a puppy; great field trail homes will not want a puppy. I had the experience of purchasing two goldens from Topbrass looking for that dual dog, and the experience convinced me that it takes far more than a good field dog in his own right and a good show dog in her own right. In both cases, Topbrass dogs I bought had far weaker conformantion then the show bred parent and far less drive than the field bred parents, plus drastic bilateral elbow dysplasia even though parents had clearances. Outcrossing drastically introduces a gambling affect with which many breeders are uncomfortable.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> One of the only things about owning a golden I dislike is my immediate fear that anything wrong is cancer.


My same fear & unfortunately it became a reality this week for my girl Tiffany who was diagnosed with a mast cell tumor. Thankfully x-rays, ultrasound & bloodwork don't show anything else lurking at this time. Now it's a waiting game til her surgery on the 6th, fingers/paws crossed that it isn't attached to muscle.


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

Ljilly28 said:


> I wish this were simple. I have a field dog I adore, who lives in my town and trains at the trainng center I own. UCDX HR SR Sand Dancer's XX MTB Ranger UDT MH WCX ** . He is my dog Finn's unlce, has wonderful clearances with good ones behind him, and a wonderful owner. I would love to breed Ranger to my GCH girl Lush. We have talked and talked about it, BUT, what if we just dampen down and dillute the good qualities each dog brings, and weaken their weaknesses? Great show homes will not want a puppy; great field trail homes will not want a puppy. I had the experience of purchasing two goldens from Topbrass looking for that dual dog, and the experience convinced me that it takes far more than a good field dog in his own right and a good show dog in her own right. In both cases, Topbrass dogs I bought had far weaker conformantion then the show bred parent and far less drive than the field bred parents, plus drastic bilateral elbow dysplasia even though parents had clearances. Outcrossing drastically introduces a gambling affect with which many breeders are uncomfortable.


I get that! However if you are suggesting that she is just putting a dog from each line together without knowing what she is doing you couldn't be more wrong. As she herself isnt a member here I am not going to say who she is but i know that atleast one of her grandbabies is owned by a member here and they are well thought of. 

The other...I am not as sure of....


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Mayve said:


> I get that! However if you are suggesting that she is just putting a dog from each line together without knowing what she is doing you couldn't be more wrong. As she herself isnt a member here I am not going to say who she is but i know that atleast one of her grandbabies is owned by a member here and they are well thought of.
> 
> The other...I am not as sure of....
> 
> ...


No I have no idea who you are talking about, and just mean generally breeding a dual bred dog is much more risky than it sounds on the face of it. Often, the puppies turn out to be less than both parents, in structure, healthy, type, and working ability. Very few people have done it successfully, in terms of consistently producing pups that improve on their parents.


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

Ljilly28 said:


> No I have no idea who you are talking about, and just mean generally breeding a dual bred dog is much more risky than it sounds on the face of it. Often, the puppies turn out to be less than both parents, in structure, healthy, type, and working ability. Very few people have done it successfully, in terms of consistently producing pups that improve on their parents.


Thanks for clarifying. I am a bit sensitive today sorry if I read to much into what you were saying! 


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

SheetsSM said:


> My same fear & unfortunately it became a reality this week for my girl Tiffany who was diagnosed with a mast cell tumor. Thankfully x-rays, ultrasound & bloodwork don't show anything else lurking at this time. Now it's a waiting game til her surgery on the 6th, fingers/paws crossed that it isn't attached to muscle.


So stressful for you- I hope Tiffany comes through with clean margins and no reoccurence. Did they stage the tumor? My friend has a dog that had mast cell surgery at 5 and lived to be 13 with no more issue, so I hope that is your case here too.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Mayve said:


> Thanks for clarifying. I am a bit sensitive today sorry if I read to much into what you were saying!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I don't have even any guess who you mean. It is just a topic I think & research about alot pertaining to choosing sires for my girl.


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