# Juvenile cataracts



## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

Give me your thoughts in regards to breeding a bitch with juvenile cataracts. Since we do not know the mode of transmission, and the continuous use of the same dogs in breeding, and juvenile cataracts do not affect the quality of life, what are your perspectives?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

My thought is why would someone breed a bitch with juvenile cataracts when there are so many terrific bitches without them?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

No, do not breed a bitch with juvenile cataracts, littermates wouldn't bother me as there is so much more to it. But that is a non clearance...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The mode of transmission is thought to be dominant with incomplete penetrance which makes it so hard to interpret... This breed has many inheritable issues...


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

If we go by the GRCA Code of Ethics, it does not state that a golden with juvenile cataracts should not be used for breeding. Is there a perfect dog? If we go back at review the health background of the subject's siblings, parents, grand-parents, etc. would we really breed any dog?


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

Is the real cause of multiple health issues in goldens, because we use too many of the same dogs and too many dogs in the same line?


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

St. Louis said:


> Is the real cause of multiple health issues in goldens, because we use too many of the same dogs and too many dogs in the same line?


While I agree with you, especially about the in-line breeding practices, I think that more info on the dog is needed in order to get a yay or nay vote.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

St. Louis said:


> If we go by the GRCA Code of Ethics, it does not state that a golden with juvenile cataracts should not be used for breeding. Is there a perfect dog? If we go back at review the health background of the subject's siblings, parents, grand-parents, etc. would we really breed any dog?


I think it comes down to 2 questions:

1. If you are trying to improve the breed or want to be able to make that statement as far as the dogs you choose to breed, would you breed a dog with a known defect (juvenile cataracts) which is known to be fairly hereditary? Meaning, if one of the parents has it, odds are the puppies will have cataracts + you will have angry puppy buyers coming back to you and asking you why this happened. 

2. If you are a puppy buyer and want to have a healthy dog who in theory won't go blind or get that glaze before his senior years, would you buy a puppy from somebody who deliberately bred a dog with cataracts?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Until CERF/GRCA make juvies a non-failing breeder's option, I plan to stick with the COE and not breed my dog with juvenile cataracts. He is beautiful, great temperament, awesome working dog, a Master Hunter at 3 years of age, multiple High In Trial winner, great pedigree, shall I go on? GRCA & CERF have deemed that his juvenile cataracts are a failing eye condition, even though I could argue that it should not be. 
The only reason I could think to breed a bitch with juvies is if she is absolutely spectacular in every other way. We're talking multiple high level titles (CH/OTCH/MH), amazing pedigree and spotless health history, perfect working temperament. Those are VERY few and far between........
I think we will see a day where juvies are downgraded to a breeder's option. Until then....outta luck


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

Great comments. Should we not require all test results to be published? How about the breeders that do not publish all of the results?


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

K9-Design said:


> Until CERF/GRCA make juvies a non-failing breeder's option, I plan to stick with the COE and not breed my dog with juvenile cataracts. He is beautiful, great temperament, awesome working dog, a Master Hunter at 3 years of age, multiple High In Trial winner, great pedigree, shall I go on? GRCA & CERF have deemed that his juvenile cataracts are a failing eye condition, even though I could argue that it should not be.
> The only reason I could think to breed a bitch with juvies is if she is absolutely spectacular in every other way. We're talking multiple high level titles (CH/OTCH/MH), amazing pedigree and spotless health history, perfect working temperament. Those are VERY few and far between........
> I think we will see a day where juvies are downgraded to a breeder's option. Until then....outta luck


 
Where in the COE does it state that dog who have juvenile cataracts should not be used for breeding? It simply states that the results be posted.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

St. Louis said:


> Great comments. Should we not require all test results to be published? How about the breeders that do not publish all of the results?


But they can still supply them to anyone who wants to see them. Are you breeding?


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

St. Louis said:


> Where in the COE does it state that dog who have juvenile cataracts should not be used for breeding? It simply states that the results be posted.


Another question, what is the point of health testing if you are just going to breed regardless of the results? We have health testing so we aren't breeding unhealthy dogs.


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

Why do we have to play "hide and seek" on the test results? That is a game of I don't want others to know. In regards to am I breeding? That has not been determined.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Another thought is that I suspect you will have a very hard time finding an excellent stud dog with an owner who is willing to breed to a bitch with juvenile cataracts. I know it would be a deal breaker for me instantly.


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

So, if a breeder does not post all results, then they really are not following the COE.


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> Another thought is that I suspect you will have a very hard time finding an excellent stud dog with an owner who is willing to breed to a bitch with juvenile cataracts. I know it would be a deal breaker for me instantly.


 
Is that excellent stud dog, the same one that is used over and over? Is that stud dog perfect? How many prior generations does one review to find the perfect dog?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

St. Louis said:


> So, if a breeder does not post all results, then they really are not following the COE.


Are you talking about specific breeders? 

If the breeder is breeding a dog without clearances (whether the dogs failed to pass or they chose not to do the clearances to begin with), then they are not following the COE. 

If a breeder just hasn't sent the eyes in, but has the paperwork and provides it readily as part of the puppy package, then that's OK? 

Before I purchased Bertie, I asked for proof the mom had her eyes cleared as I saw before hand it wasn't on offa.org. This was provided readily and I saw her eyes were cleared. 

If I had seen something like cataracts noted - I would have walked away from that litter.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

St. Louis said:


> So, if a breeder does not post all results, then they really are not following the COE.


Is that directed to me? The COE references publishing clearance results on BREEDING DOGS. If my dog fails a clearance he's no longer a breeding dog. On my stud dog (different dog) I HAVE published all health clearance information and am very transparent on the health issues he's produced to people interested in using him.
If you're splitting hairs over the wording in the COE then I'm out of this discussion. Your dog failed a clearance, so if you breed her in spite of that there better be some ridiculously amazing reason.
I'm all about breed diversity but if you're just breeding a dog with the same old pedigrees they all have but now with a failed clearance, I fail to see how that is widening the gene pool.


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

K-9 Design, my comments are not directed at you. I don't even know who you are. My comments are in general terms. It is very easy to go to OFA and observe breeders that continue to breed dogs, and do not post all of their test results.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

St. Louis said:


> Why do we have to play "hide and seek" on the test results? That is a game of I don't want others to know. In regards to am I breeding? That has not been determined.


The reputable breeders I know who don't send clearances in always have them done and are very upfront about any breeder options. Copies are also given to puppy buyers. And they DO NOT even consider breeding a dog that didn't pass, unlike what you seem to be doing. People who care about the breed do not breed dogs who failed a clearance unless under very, very special circumstances and even then most would not. I have personally seen breeders spend upwards of $20,000 on championing a dog and working on grand points only to retire them without hesitation due to a clearance failure. That is why they are reputable breeders.


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

I will go back to a previous question that I asked; How many prior generations does one review to find the perfect dog?


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

Eowyn, I think you are jumping the gun. I am simply asking questions.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

St. Louis said:


> I will go back to a previous question that I asked; How many prior generations does one review to find the perfect dog?


At least 5, but breeders often go back to further for things like longevity and hip clearances since those have been around a long time. Typically you are looking at siblings, aunts and uncles as well. And no dog is perfect, but there are definitely better dogs (such as ones with at least the 4 core clearances, heavy titles, siblings with clearances, generations of clearances and longevity etc.).


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

St. Louis said:


> Eowyn, I think you are jumping the gun. I am simply asking questions.


Sorry. Ask away.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

K9-Design said:


> Until CERF/GRCA make juvies a non-failing breeder's option, I plan to stick with the COE and not breed my dog with juvenile cataracts. He is beautiful, great temperament, awesome working dog, a Master Hunter at 3 years of age, multiple High In Trial winner, great pedigree, shall I go on? GRCA & CERF have deemed that his juvenile cataracts are a failing eye condition, even though I could argue that it should not be.
> The only reason I could think to breed a bitch with juvies is if she is absolutely spectacular in every other way. We're talking multiple high level titles (CH/OTCH/MH), amazing pedigree and spotless health history, perfect working temperament. Those are VERY few and far between........
> I think we will see a day where juvies are downgraded to a breeder's option. Until then....outta luck


This ^

Deciding that a certain clearance is not important enough to worry about is a slippery slope. If juvies, then what about that Gr 1 elbow? Or the one bad hip?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

St. Louis said:


> I will go back to a previous question that I asked; How many prior generations does one review to find the perfect dog?


There is no perfect dog. Period. There is no perfect pedigree. As a friend of mine once said, "pick your poison." I might be comfortable with a pedigree where there is a dog known to have produced juvies in some offspring but won't breed into a pedigree where hip clearances are weak.

When I review stud dogs, I look at a 3 generation vertical pedigree and a 5 generation standard pedigree.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Tahnee GR said:


> There is no perfect dog. Period. There is no perfect pedigree. As a friend of mine once said, "pick your poison." I might be comfortable with a pedigree where there is a dog known to have produced juvies in some offspring but won't breed into a pedigree where hip clearances are weak.
> 
> When I review stud dogs, I look at a 3 generation vertical pedigree and a 5 generation standard pedigree.



I very much agree with this. There is NO perfect stud dog! If there were...everyone would be using him and then we would have no genetic diversity.

I think most look for a stud dog that MOST suits their bitch. Every stud dog produces different things and the same thing goes for the bitch.

I look at strong clearances 3 generations back plus longevity. 

I would agree with Anney, that unless the dog or bitch is SUPERB in EVERY OTHER WAY (including titles front and back at the highest level). No other issues with siblings or nothing else in the line and good longevity...then might be a different story.

But, WHY breed a bitch or a dog with a Juvie? What purpose does that serve?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

St. Louis said:


> I will go back to a previous question that I asked; How many prior generations does one review to find the perfect dog?



I want to know where you find the perfect dog at all. 
I am sympathetic that juvenile cataracts are small potatoes and we have much bigger health problems to deal with in the breed. Does it feel unfair that your dog gets kicked out of the gene pool for it, when plenty of other dogs that pass all four clearances get cancer and croak at 4 years old, or develop PU, or have terrible allergies? Yep, that sucks. But if we are going to be in GRCA's camp, we need to play by their rules. Or rather, adhere to their peer pressure. I've only been in goldens 22 years and don't feel that breeding dogs with failed clearances is a political move I need to make.


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

Thanks for the perspectives. Always interesting views. Thank you.


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

Eowyn said:


> At least 5, but breeders often go back to further for things like longevity and hip clearances since those have been around a long time. Typically you are looking at siblings, aunts and uncles as well. And no dog is perfect, but there are definitely better dogs (such as ones with at least the 4 core clearances, heavy titles, siblings with clearances, generations of clearances and longevity etc.).


 I agree with your perspective--you nailed it. Then why do some breeders think because their dog has passed all of the clearances that they have the perfect dog to breed? In fact, that dog may be a major carrier of major issues and should not be used.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

But why does everything have to be perfect? I don't know anyone who honestly thinks their dog is perfect.

If a dog had to be perfect, no one should be breeding.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

No, a dog being used repeatedly doesn't make it an excellent stud dog and some of the "stud de jour" dogs aren't what I would consider the best dogs for breeding. 
In MY OPINION, not written fact anywhere, an excellent stud dog is one who has been proven to be to the Golden Standard by either passing a CCA or having a bench championship. The dog should be proven as trainable and biddable by having performance titles beyond the novice level in at least one and preferably more areas. The dog should have hunting instinct, like water, and have bird instinct. He should, further, have the correct calm, sweet temperament that the Goldens are noted for. All health clearances AND DNA TESTS should be in place. I'd like to see 5 generations of health clearances, but recognize that not everyone has done elbows for anywhere near that long, and there is still some debate about the validity of the elbow tests. 
And then, you still won't have a perfect dog. You will just have one that, if the genetics complement the bitch, should produce a nice litter.



St. Louis said:


> Is that excellent stud dog, the same one that is used over and over? Is that stud dog perfect? How many prior generations does one review to find the perfect dog?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

And this is a pet peeve of mine as well. Just because a dog has passed the 4 core clearances doesn't mean the dog should be bred. There is a lot more to a dog than the clearances (see my other post please). 
Just because a dog has a bench CH doesn't mean the dog should be bred, either, IMHO. But a lot of people would disagree with me there.



St. Louis said:


> I agree with your perspective--you nailed it. Then why do some breeders think because their dog has passed all of the clearances that they have the perfect dog to breed? In fact, that dog may be a major carrier of major issues and should not be used.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

When will the ideal world happen?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Juvenile cataracts are a do not breed issue... What is your point?[/QUOTE]


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

St. Louis said:


> I agree with your perspective--you nailed it. Then why do some breeders think because their dog has passed all of the clearances that they have the perfect dog to breed? In fact, that dog may be a major carrier of major issues and should not be used.


I don't know a single breeder that I would consider reputable who breeds a dog simply because they have clearances. Typically that is the _last_ test (although not least important, but you can know things like whether or not a dog has a breedable temperament or whether or not their conformation is acceptable for breeding before you can get clearances). Unfortunately we often don't know if a dog is a major carrier for some issues until after they are bred (and probably have several generations of offspring). Going back to there is no perfect dog, so pick your poison so to speak. Good breeders are usually the first to point out their dogs faults and heavily weigh all known risk factors before breeding. But we can not control everything, and at some point we have to breed something if we want to keep having dogs. :/


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