# Backyard Breeders?



## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

I think you should reconsider your price range for a pup. You can find reputable breeders for pups in the $1000-1500 price range, if you look hard. I would especially run from anyone who says they do not do clearances as you may end up paying for that with very expensive vet bills (much more than the price of a pup from a reputable breeder). 

A BYB is someone who breeds just for the sake of breeding/making money. Some of them do clearances (or at least some) while others do none at all. You want to find a breeder who is breeding with the end goal of getting a puppy out of the breeding to better the breed. 

If you can give us a better location of where you are at, maybe some people here can point you in the right direction. Also search for breeders in your state and surrounding states on this forum.


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

If this sound fishy to you as it does me I would run from this breeder. That said, my dogs did not come from great breeders and knock on wood I have been very lucky. I have learned lots in my time on this forum. The cost of one surgery for any one of the suggested clearances can be WAY more than the cost of a clearanced dog.


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## Sophie_Mom (Jan 21, 2009)

Yikes! Lots of things are concerning here. Have you looked into a Golden Retriever rescue group? You could get a puppy or young dog that your family can grow with, minus all of the red flags you discussed here. The potential of heartache from getting a puppy under these circumstances is pretty big. Good luck - but I just know you can do better.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

A BYB can also be someone who actually has no real knowledge about breeding dogs. They may know a tiny bit, may like a particular breed of dog, then they decide to make a little money by breeding. 
But since they really don't know about breeding, they don't know what to check for, so if you buy from them, and you are very lucky, you may end up with a dog without problems. On the other hand, a breeder who is knowledgeable, because of the screening they do to rule out problems, has an increased chance of producing a healthy pup with a good temperament, who is a good representative of how the breed is supposed to look and act.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

First of all, the only thing my last boss said that I agree with is, " all dogs bite it's a matter of when." Especially when you have young children, it is very important to be vigilant with supervision. BYB can produce dogs with decent temperaments.... and also some soundness.... but by going to a breeder that has done their homework, you ensure that those things are building blocks in the foundation of producing good dogs. And I really don't want to sound like a jerk here, but if the purchase price of $1000 and slightly higher is too much, how will you afford to take care of the dog? What happens when the pup eats the kids' soccer socks and needs emergency surgery? And I am always skeptical of any breeder who says it is too expensive to register pups. That is a "cop out". First of all they make money by selling the pups... second of all, some BYB breed dogs that were sold by their breeders with limited registration which means that their offspring CAN'T be registered....


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Rescues get puppies also. Put your name on a list with rescues in your area. You might have to wait awhile, but I'm sure you don't have to have one _right this second_, true? If you don't want to rescue, why don't you save a little longer so you can afford to do things right? 

It would be worth the wait instead of spending your money on a dog that will most likely cost you more than you could imagine both emotionally and monetarily in the long run. You say in your post that you can't afford $1500-$2000 for a dog. Well...if you go with a BYB puppy, that amount of money will be spent very easily if it has health issues that these breeders are known for.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Please do not support this "breeder" with your money. Seek out someone who does good for dogs like a reputable breeder or rescue. Note, however, that rescues can be expensive in the long run so there really isn't a cheap option when it comes to dogs. They are like kids, always getting in trouble and costing you money.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

My personal experience. I spent $500.00 for my Tukr and he had allergies from the age of 1. I spent $1500.00 in allergy testing and all the supplies for a month after already spending hundreds at the vet prior to doing the testing. I then proceeded to give this dog shots every 21 days for the next 14 years. He had vet visits at the University once a year and allergy vials every month around the cost of $125.oo a vial.. ..While I loved him until the day I had to say goodbye my next dog I researched and spent more for him up front.. He is healthy, happy and exactly what the breeder told me he would be. Keep searching and saving for a better puppy. It will pay off in the long run. Cheaper is not always cheaper and can be heartbreaking..


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Honestly, you lost me when she said that giardia was common, and you stated that her puppies had fleas and needed a bath. These are not conditions that are at all conducive to getting a pet.

She is not giving the pups the most basic care that they should be given. The early experiences of the pups, and the effect of the care they are given (or, in this case, not given) can have a lasting impact on them.

If you buy a puppy from this woman, you are encouraging her to keep on with her reprehensible practices and you are possible opening yourself up to years of heartache. Might the puppy make a great pet? Maybe but the odds are stacked against you.

Sign up with a rescue, or keep saving but don't support this woman's business (because business is obviously what it is to her).


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## Max's Momma (May 2, 2011)

My first impression is that you know the answer about whether or not to get a puppy from this particular BYB woman. You've mentioned enough negative stuff about her way of keeping the puppies(outside,fleas,dirty),and her business ethics.
I had a litter of Golden Retriever puppies with my Serena years ago and sold them from inside my house with papers at an inexpensive price and kept one- Penny-for my family. The lucky people who got my puppies enjoyed many years of love and joy, but several did get cancer as did my Serena and my Penny.
I guess I'm saying that if you are looking for a BYB, be sensible and trust your gut about the environment and attitude of the "breeder".


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

The couple I got Max from breed champion painted horses and breed only a few goldens - it was more of a hobby thing for them as horses are their main thing. Max was not raised outside in a wire enclosure, fleas were not an issue for them, and they were very knowledgable about breeding and raising pups. 
I, too, couldn't afford 1,000 dollars for a pup so I knew I was taking my chances. I passed by a few pups before came across Max's litter. The people where great, the parents where healthy and Max's mom's last litter who were coming on 2 years old were all still doing great - no health issues reported. All good signs for me and so we put down the deposit.
I wouldn't have bought a puppy from the person you are describing at all. That litter would have been another litter I would have passed on.
I also have to say as a parent and as a dog owner, that what your child wants size wise, etc. really should have no bearing on what kind of dog you choose or whether you get a dog. Don't be fooled - this will be YOUR dog - so first of all, if you get a dog it's because you really want one, not because your child does. Second of all, learn about this breed - especially as puppies. We've all had our threads where we are in tears at some point and just so tired of either the landsharkness, the mouthiness, the hard times that come between not tiny puppy any more into good, grown up doggy. They are not at all as well behaved as the movies would like you to think they are! Thirdly, if you do want a dog - pick the size and breed of dog that will work best in your kind of household, your schedule, your lifestyle. If a smaller dog would fit better into your lives, trust me, your 5 year old will grow to love that dog just as much no matter the size, color, or breed. 
Good luck with everything.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Btw, if I came across this place I'd no doubt report her to the local humane society...


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

Run away as fast as you can from this "breeder". I think the very fact that you seem uncertain about the pups says you know this is not a pup you should be taking home.
My first 2 Goldens were from byb. The temperament and other issues I encountered with my second pup would take an entire book to explain. Please don't start with a puppy that is being raised under such circumstances. Your family deserves better and will be better served with a healthy, well cared for pup to begin with.


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## oakleysmommy (Feb 20, 2011)

RUN! and i feel bad for the puppies in these conditions!! How can she claim to be responsible when 1) shes not sure they have parasites, 2)claims they dont need health clearances, 3) have fleas??? 4) too expensive to do the necessary steps in being a "breeder"..you can find much better at a rescue.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Pups sometimes do get worms (roundworms in particular) and giardia. The question with those is how the breeder took care of the problems, not whether the dogs had them.

As far as everything else you've said (filthy puppies outside, infested with fleas, lack of clearances, etc.) this breeder is one to run away from at top speed.

You don't have to spend $2000 to get a dog with full clearances. You do need to save something like $1200, and you do have to be patient in developing a relationship with a great hobby breeder, and you need to be willing to wait for the right litter.

$1200 is a bargain for a dog with multi-generational clearances. That extra $500 buys you a lot more than $500 worth of reduction in the chances of a severe health problem down the line. If you can't afford the $500 now by waiting and saving, you definitely can't afford the higher risk of a $5000 surgery down the line.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I would never ever support this breeder. I would also let others know to stay far away from this breeder.

Keep looking you can find a nice pup from a good breeding that has all of its clearances for 700$- 800$.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

goldenmommytobe said:


> ok I know it is not wise to buy from a backyard breeder but I just had a few q's. I've been doing some research and am not sure if this constitutes as a backyard breeder or what. The breeder I was just looking into but not buying from definitely says her pups are guaranteed healthy yet may have giardia even though they've been wormed and had their first shots. She says it's very common. Yet she guarantees their health? Isn' this part of health or am I wrong? .


Sometimes puppies will get intestinal parasites. Giardia isn't that common unless the last litter or another dog had it and they didn't clean properly afterwards. Giardia requires treatment, not just wormer. She should be doing that NOW if she suspects it. It is going to cost you some $$ in the future for treatment once the puppy comes home.



goldenmommytobe said:


> She does not do hips eyes or elbows yet guarantees again that her pups won't have issues or else she will take back the dog or replace the pup and you keep the one with the issues as well. .


Now, does this mentality make any sense?? So, you have to spend about $5-10,000 on hip replacement surgery on your current puppy BUT she'll throw in another one from her breeding program for free. Why would you want to go through the SAME exact thing again?? You should really save up for a puppy that does cost more from a good breeder because they are FAR more knowledgeable about hip issues and test for them.



goldenmommytobe said:


> She does have her vet listed on her website, which I am going to call in the morning just to see if she's legit but her puppies do have fleas and need baths badly. They are also kept outside. She claims they spend their early weeks inside but I saw them only outside in a little chicken wire pen on her deck.


These puppies are NOT well socialized. They have never heard a vaccum cleaner, a pan drop, people laughing, singing, or yelling, they have not heard a TV or likely been handled very much. This is NOT something that you want to deal with as your puppy grows and is fearful of everything. Good breeders give their puppies time, love, and a constant source of stimulation and surfaces to interact with.



goldenmommytobe said:


> I'm trying to do my homework but honestly we cannot afford a $1500-$2000 dog. I have had not luck finding a 3-4 year old dog and my 5 yr old really wants a small dog who will grow big. I do understand that. I also wonder about temperment in pups from backyard breeders. This lady claims she breeds for temperment. My biggest concern with a backyard breeder is getting a puppy with a bad temperment and then it bites one of my kids. If we socialize the pup properly will that help? I do plan to enroll the puppy in training classes asap and we have tons of dogs where we live that the puppy will meet. I bought my first golden from a petshop years ago. She had severe aggression issues but I also never properly socialized her. I had other dogs at the time and she wanted to be alpha and had biting isses actually with other animals. She was otherwise a great dog. I'm just curious and wondering if all backyard breeders are just in it to make money or this lady sounds like maybe she's half and half. she also doesn't register her pups with the akc though which also makes me wary. she says it's just a paper saying your pup is pure bred and you spend $75 to register them. I told her this wasn't true. I don't need papers. I'm just wondering if you all have ever gone with a byb and if so what did you look for? Thanks.


This lady sounds like she is in it for the money and frankly doesn't care about the puppies. Why not keep checking in the newspaper, craigslist, or local animal shelters for goldens or golden mixes that are in need of a home. With children, it might be best to have an older dog. Your 5 year old will be busy this summer playing, going to camp, whatever- s/he will quickly get over the fascination of having a SMALL puppy that grows up. They likely won't even remember it's puppyhood because they are small for such a short period of time.


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## Sosoprano (Apr 27, 2011)

I think many of the responses you received to your other post ("Does this seem like a reputable breeder?") apply here as well. 

If money is an issue, then buying a puppy from a sketchy breeder is a bad choice because you risk paying thousands of dollars dealing with health problems. If money is not an issue, then why not buy from a reputable breeder? 

I'm afraid there really isn't a way to pound this square peg into a round hole :no: .


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

My question, is does she really think, this add sounds good? I think not, run from her.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Again, look at rescues. Offer to foster if they don't want to place a dog in your home full time - most rescues are screaming for foster homes, and at worst it's too much and you quit in a week. At best you keep the dog/pup you started out fostering.

If you can't afford a registered, well bred dog, then get a rescue. The adoption fee is much less AND includes spay/neuter, vaccines and so on. That's a $500 value you would have to keep in mind if you got a pup from any breeder anyway, if not more.

And many rescues get pregnant dogs and the pups are raised and cared for, so there's little chance of any 'issues' other than health - if you don't care about clearances and are going to support a byb, then rescue.

If you really want a purebred golden puppy and it MUST come from a breeder, do it right - look for all clearances done, ask on here as to where to go, etc... if not, again, go talk to some rescues.

Should I say RESCUE again?


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## Bachelor (May 25, 2011)

///Deleted


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Bachelor said:


> all i can speak of is my own experience.
> 
> i got my puppy from a BYB as you would call it. the parents were there. She had about 8 large dogs on the premises which she used for breeding. all of them were "outside" dogs in the heat of central California. they all looked like they were in excellent shape. no problems with my pup (had him for almost a month), and hopefully non in the future either.
> 
> ...


SO FAR is the key words. Your pup may be fine, I hope he is, but if he does have health issues - are your parents going to dish out the money then?

Many health issues are not visible to the eye, without specialized testing. Lots of hip and elbow displasia dogs don't limp, or show major signs of pain, yet eventually need hip replacement. Or if they don't, can still pass on those bad genes to their puppies. Same with heart - the parents might be still ok, or never show signs, but it can pop up in your puppy and there's sometimes nothing you can do, it's too late. Eyes, well they do need to see ideally.

Below are links to threads on each of the main issues - please read and learn. 

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...sion/84625-milo-has-severe-hip-dysplasia.html

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...iology-breed-standard/91983-sudden-death.html

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...n/97338-help-my-baby-has-elbow-dysplasia.html

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...498-baylees-eyes-have-pigmentary-uveitis.html

Again, the price of a pup with clearances, vs. a 'cheaper' puppy without and the risk of any of the above happening, just isn't worth it. Can't you wait a year or so and put aside the extra money if you must get a puppy from a breeder?

Lana


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Wait didnt you post over at the breeder forum as well. Do you think you are going to get different responses in this forum?


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## Bachelor (May 25, 2011)

///Deleted


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Sadly many problems don't pop up till after the first year. What is the breeder's guarantee? If it's anything where the dog must be returned and she'll give a replacement, then yeah, most people aren't going to go that route, they will pay the big bucks and get their family member the vet care they need, even if it's tens of thousands. 

I hope your guy does well too, if there's no help for him if he does ever need it. Shame on that breeder for not asking or not caring enough to ask about that sort of thing - I don't know of any good breeders who would place their pup at that sort of risk, even with clearances.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> additionally, shes been doing it for nearly 25 years and said that only 1 of her dogs has ever been returned for a problem.


Because if there is anything wrong with your 7 month old golden, are you going to be so cruel as to return that dog for a new one? 

Our first golden had kidney disease at 6 years old. We spent about $2000 in his last 6 months of his life trying to keep him comfortable. That picture in my signature was taken about 2 months before we lost him. He was only 6, but about that time was as white and fragile as a dog twice his age. 

He was a byb. That is a risk you take when you go with a breeder who's just putting dogs together without doing any homework. 

He was originally $400, but my dad bartered the price down to $200 because of the extremely poor conditions that the puppies were kept in. We loved that dog - and we still love him. Losing him was a horrific ordeal for our entire family. I've said before, but I never saw my dad cry ever before we lost that dog. He rushed to the vet straight from his work to say goodbye and then sat there holding on to us and crying. For all of us it was like getting stabbed in the heart losing him. 

I think this is probably overkill repeating all of this, because I know I've repeated this over and over here on GRF. 

I'm not a snob when it comes to people buying puppies from byb's. But go into it with open eyes. You are going to love that dog no matter what, and you have to be prepared to pick up the pieces whenever whatever happens.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Bachelor said:


> Breeder said she would guarantee her pups for a year for anything that may come up.
> 
> additionally, shes been doing it for nearly 25 years and said that only 1 of her dogs has ever been returned for a problem.
> 
> ...


Be careful when you throw around that word "anyone".... I would and have and many of us on this board would and have spent a couple of thousand dollars to care for a sick pet. Maybe you wouldn't but many of us have. 

Actually to me a "couple" thousand seems like a pretty low expenditure considering Bings surgery last year was close to 10K, Cuinn the year before was $4800 and Shalvas accident and surgery this year was $8K between the two... so maybe you wouldn't spend it... but many of us would and have .


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Bender said:


> Again, look at rescues. Offer to foster if they don't want to place a dog in your home full time - most rescues are screaming for foster homes, and at worst it's too much and you quit in a week. At best you keep the dog/pup you started out fostering.
> 
> If you can't afford a registered, well bred dog, then get a rescue. The adoption fee is much less AND includes spay/neuter, vaccines and so on. That's a $500 value you would have to keep in mind if you got a pup from any breeder anyway, if not more.
> 
> ...


many have said exactly the same thing on the breeder board... the shelters and breeders have said the same thing... but this person wants to hear what she wants to hear... 
she probably won't hear it from any of us though


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Bachelor said:


> ...and to be frank, no, i dont think anyone will dish out the money if it costs couple thousand bucks for something serious. so lets hope nothing happens...


Wow...I can't even respond to this in the way I want to. :no: If I did, I'd probably get kicked off the board.

So yeah, let's hope nothing happens...for your puppy's sake.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

If the puppies were in that condition i would try my best to report her to the appropriate authorities.


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## Kelmel (Apr 7, 2009)

Fundamentally, it kills me to hear of people supporting the byb, while at the same moment a perfectly heathy golden could be euthenized at a shelter because no one wants him. There are so many dogs (including goldens) and we don't need byb's to continue to produce more. I don't know why it is so hard for people to understand and not support their businesses.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Bachelor, if that's your attitude - I don't think you'll really fit in here and find the kind of friendship and kinship that many have found. You outright state that if something is seriously wrong and expensive with your pup, you'll pretty much put him down. That attitude is not the heart and soul of the people here. 
You've only had him a month - perhaps he will open your heart and your mind the longer you have him - I know Max has become an intregal part of our lives, a support and laugh factory, a joy that I wouldn't throw away if he racked up that kind of money in care. 
I don't think I'm a fanatic, and I don't think I'm crazy - I just love my pets and what they add to my life- I feel a deep sense of responsibility for them because if I don't stand up for them, there is no one else to. Their life and deep love is a gift and a huge responsibility. I don't sense that you even begin to get that kind of connection and I feel sorry for you. I hope someday you are blessed with that kind of understanding and that if anything becomes wrong with your little guy, it's before you decide not to do what he needs you to do for him.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Bachelor said:


> and to be frank, no, i dont think anyone will dish out the money if it costs couple thousand bucks for something serious. so lets hope nothing happens.


Well, your statement begs the following question: what will you do if your dog develops a crippling limp at three or four years old? Will you take him to the vet? Will you spend the few hundred bucks to find out what's wrong?

If you do spend that few hundred dollars and it's hip dysplasia and his best shot at a long, healthy life is a $5000 surgery, what will you do? If you're not going to pay, what do you think your other options are?


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## Bachelor (May 25, 2011)

///Deleted


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## Sabine (Nov 10, 2009)

Bachelor said:


> eRR. I meant to write, anyone I know who will do it for me.
> 
> But I understand yall got the big bucks.


You are an idiot. Not all of us have big bucks, but we treat our dogs as the important part of our family that they are. I hope I don't ever have to deal with a huge health issue. But let me tell you, I will move mountains for my dog, who is my bud, friend and lifeline and all I have left it seems.

If you can't afford to properly take care of a pet, don't have one, or have one less expensive.

I am not one of the people that is very vocal on here, but your attitude stinks. 

I am widowed, my husband died without insurance. I live paycheck to paycheck. Sound like big bucks to you????



PS if this is not politically correct enough feel free to edit out any insults


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## Molly's Mum (Apr 1, 2011)

Bachelor said:


> eRR. I meant to write, anyone I know who will do it for me.
> 
> But I understand yall got the big bucks.


Not everyone has "big bucks", I certainly don't. That's why I have taken out pet insurance so that if anything happens to Molly I have peace of mind that the insurance company will pay the majority of the bill. Can you not get your puppy health insurance at least?


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## Usha Maceio Brazil (Apr 21, 2011)

Oh my! This is a very important discussion. Tasha was bought by my ex from a byb. At the time I knew nothing about healthy breeding. We lucked out. Tasha is a wonderful dog, so wonderful, we thought she should leave offspring. So we did. Brian kept Shisha, from her first litter. Years later we discovered her genetic problems. She is 12, blind, going deaf, etc. Luckly she is in a house who thinks dogs are like our own kids, and Brian pays up the bill. But I always wonder about the other pups, and feel horribly guilty for letting a genetic disorder pass on.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Bachelor said:


> eRR. I meant to write, anyone I know who will do it for me.
> 
> But I understand yall got the big bucks.


I don't have big bucks. :uhoh:


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## jweisman54 (May 22, 2010)

momtoMax said:


> Bachelor, if that's your attitude - I don't think you'll really fit in here and find the kind of friendship and kinship that many have found. You outright state that if something is seriously wrong and expensive with your pup, you'll pretty much put him down. That attitude is not the heart and soul of the people here.
> You've only had him a month - perhaps he will open your heart and your mind the longer you have him - I know Max has become an intregal part of our lives, a support and laugh factory, a joy that I wouldn't throw away if he racked up that kind of money in care.
> I don't think I'm a fanatic, and I don't think I'm crazy - I just love my pets and what they add to my life- I feel a deep sense of responsibility for them because if I don't stand up for them, there is no one else to. Their life and deep love is a gift and a huge responsibility. I don't sense that you even begin to get that kind of connection and I feel sorry for you. I hope someday you are blessed with that kind of understanding and that if anything becomes wrong with your little guy, it's before you decide not to do what he needs you to do for him.


Bachelor, I also have to agree with momtomax in that you sound like an idiot. Buying a puppy is a multi year commitment on the owner's part. Let's put this in perspective, say you had a child, and that child came down with some rare illness or yet even Cancer. Are you going to cast that child astray or give it up for adoption and not pay its' medical bills to help that child have some kind of quality of life. Well, it is the same for a dog Bachelor. You take on the responsibility to raise that puppy whether or not it has major medical needs or not. As far as us forum members having big bucks, think again....most of us work, take care of children, etc. and live paycheck to paycheck.

You are barking up the wrong tree here. If this forum isn't giving you the answers that you are looking for, then I suggest that you find one that is.


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## oakleysmommy (Feb 20, 2011)

i dont have big bucks either and my dogs are my my kids...so yes i have 6 kids ,,3 furry ones and 3 human ones..they are the loves of my life not just a family pet.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Bachelor said:


> eRR. I meant to write, anyone I know who will do it for me.
> 
> But I understand yall got the big bucks.


I don't think we're understanding you. In another thread, you talk about feeding Wellness, which isn't a cheap food. In another, you talk about working with your dog and teaching him lots of tricks. You seem like a really caring owner in those threads. You also appear to have a swimming pool.

So the comment that implies you'll let a dog suffer doesn't really jive with the other stuff. And then I don't understand this comment either.

So I'm currently operating under the theory that you're not an idiot. Perhaps you were just a bit careless in writing the last couple of posts and might be able to clarify what you meant.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

goldenmommytobe said:


> ok I know it is not wise to buy from a backyard breeder but I just had a few q's. I've been doing some research and am not sure if this constitutes as a backyard breeder or what. The breeder I was just looking into but not buying from definitely says her pups are guaranteed healthy yet may have giardia even though they've been wormed and had their first shots. She says it's very common. Yet she guarantees their health? Isn' this part of health or am I wrong? She does not do hips eyes or elbows yet guarantees again that her pups won't have issues or else she will take back the dog or replace the pup and you keep the one with the issues as well. She does have her vet listed on her website, which I am going to call in the morning just to see if she's legit but her puppies do have fleas and need baths badly. They are also kept outside. She claims they spend their early weeks inside but I saw them only outside in a little chicken wire pen on her deck. I'm trying to do my homework but honestly we cannot afford a $1500-$2000 dog. I have had not luck finding a 3-4 year old dog and my 5 yr old really wants a small dog who will grow big. I do understand that. I also wonder about temperment in pups from backyard breeders. This lady claims she breeds for temperment. *My biggest concern with a backyard breeder is getting a puppy with a bad temperment and then it bites one of my kids. If we socialize the pup properly will that help?* I do plan to enroll the puppy in training classes asap and we have tons of dogs where we live that the puppy will meet. I bought my first golden from a petshop years ago. She had severe aggression issues but I also never properly socialized her. I had other dogs at the time and she wanted to be alpha and had biting isses actually with other animals. She was otherwise a great dog. I'm just curious and wondering if all backyard breeders are just in it to make money or this lady sounds like maybe she's half and half. she also doesn't register her pups with the akc though which also makes me wary. she says it's just a paper saying your pup is pure bred and you spend $75 to register them. I told her this wasn't true. I don't need papers. I'm just wondering if you all have ever gone with a byb and if so what did you look for? Thanks.


Like everyone has already said - don't walk away from this "breeder"... RUN! From what you've described, she sounds like the worst of the worst when it comes to backyard breeders. I doubt this woman has even the most basic understanding of what 'breeding for temperament' means, let alone how to go about it.

As for BYB pups in general, no - proper socialization offers no guarantee that you won't have temperament issues. Riley is a BYB pup. We did everything right. We trained, we socialized and his temperament is not good. (We love him more than anything in this world, but for most families, he would be a _big_ problem.) 

I know that $1500-$2000 can sound like a lot of money for a puppy, but trust me, those $300-$400 pups from the backyard breeders are no bargain! You're saving money initially and spending SO much more in the long run. 
Say this pup does end up having aggression issues. You mentioned that you have kids. I don't need to tell you that an aggressive dog with small kids in the house can be disastrous. 
-Are you able to stay on top of the dog _and_ the kids every single minute of every single day to make sure that nothing bad happens?
-Are you willing and able to constantly keep your guard up and take every necessary precaution when your dog is outside the home, on a walk or whatever, to ensure that he/she never bites someone or another dog?
-Are you able to spend the time, every single day, to put in the work necessary to at least TRY to overcome aggression issues?
-Are you able to spend a few hundred dollars for a good trainer and even more for a behaviorist, if need be?

Just a few things to think about. And that's just looking at it from the temperament aspect. It says nothing of the heartache, time and money you'll be looking at if your pup has health issues.

If you're not prepared for that, then you should absolutely steer clear of backyard breeders. I don't mean to sound overly dramatic, or too "doom and gloom" about the issue. I can only speak from my experience and this is my reality with my BYB boy.


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## Bachelor (May 25, 2011)

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## Bachelor (May 25, 2011)

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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

They produced dogs who lived in pain or they died


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Bachelor said:


> just out of curiosity... what did people, and more importantly dogs do before thousand dollar "clearances" etc.


When the joint problems got so bad the dog was in constant pain or couldn't get around, they took him out back, dug a hole, and shot him.

PS - clearances don't cost a thousand dollars. And since you get them on both parents, not each pup, the cost is distributed through the litter.


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## Bachelor (May 25, 2011)

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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Clearances do not cost thousands of dollars. Eye certs $32. Hips/elbows $200. Heart $60. Knowing you have done the best for your dog PRICELESS. From someone who occasionally has bred their dog, I wouldn't expect anything less.


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## oakleysmommy (Feb 20, 2011)

Why wouldnt a breeder someone who supposedly "cares" so much about health,temperment, etc want to know if they are producing healthy dogs or not?? Whats that telling you??? Its just not fair they only care about their money. i sit here and look at my puppy and god forbid i found out he was seriously ill at such a young age! i would do whatever is necessary,..


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## bioteach (Nov 13, 2010)

Our experiences have taught us a lot! We finally saved up for a "pet quality" dog from an AKC Breeder of Merit. Nugget will never be shown so who cares if he isn't quite as perfect as a show ring winner. He has the eye, heart, and hip clearances of his show quality brothers and sisters.

Our first backyard dog was truly beautiful but was a runner and had a poor immune system. He cost us a fortune by the time he went to the bridge at age 7. 

Our second golden was only $200 and was a handsome stocky guy. He had every allergy imaginable, a serious thyroid problem, heart problems, and died of cancer.

Our third (and last) "ooooops" had AKC papers but no clearances nonetheless. He was extremely unfriendly to other dogs so we hired and worked with two trainers. We tried and tried but he problem only got worse. We felt cheated because we could never bring him to "Bark in the Park", etc. His health was also marred by horrible allergies and constant ear infections. We loved him; but when he went to the Bridge we decided that paying up front might be a better way to go.

Please think carefully about where your companion comes from. Genetic issues can only be managed by careful breeding carried out by knowledgeable, responsible and committed breeders.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Clearances are not thousands of dollars nor is AKC registration.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Heck, there is no reason for NOT getting clearances on breeding dogs. For the price of less than one puppy, even sold at bargain basement prices, one could get them done. The only reason for NOT getting clearances is because the dogs might not pass. In this case, they (BYB) adopts the stance of 'well our dogs are healthy, never had a problem' or 'getting clearances is dangerous' bull pucky. 

What a better world this would be for our beloved dogs if they would see the light. Would there still be issues, yep. But I bet they decrease enormously!!!!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Bachelor said:


> just out of curiosity... what did people, and more importantly dogs do before thousand dollar "clearances" etc.




And how long before you delete this post, as you did your others? (Thankfully (or not) others replied to you using the quote feature, so your deleted posts are still visible.)
Your attitude is mind boggling. Breeding practices evolve/improve over time just as does technology. We are now capable of doing THE BEST WE CAN as breeders to assure that the dogs we produce have a much increased chance of living long, healthy, and pain free lives. People like you make me even more thankful that this is possible, in case one slipped through my screening process and was unknowingly sold one of my puppies. At least I would know that the chances of that puppy developing a debilitating disease would be slim and not worry that s'he would simply be put down without given an opportunity to be treated. 

Wishin' I DID have "the big bucks" - I'd make sure that all the dogs produced by BYB's and millers that are dumped at shelters and rescues because their owners wouldn't spend a thousand dollars to treat their (avoidable) genetic illness were in loving homes cared for properly.


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## harrym (Nov 13, 2010)

I have a golden from a BYB that has been a wonderful dog. However, the kennel was clean [on a farm], the mother was gentle and attractive, the litter had had regular vet care [shots and wormed] and were free of any parasites. I never saw the father and was not interested in the [available] registration papers. The price was $200 [without papers], which seems to be the standard price around here -- the range in the classifieds seems to be $150-400. I tried the rescue route, but the nearest one was 300 miles and they would not consider adoptions without a home visit -- and we were too far away for that. We also considered the prison-trained dogs, but while we were waiting for a suitable golden this puppy became available. I would recommend having your vet check any puppy before you finalize the transaction. You can tell a lot by where the puppies are kept and by what they are being fed. I would pass on the breeder you describe.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

harrym said:


> I have a golden from a BYB that has been a wonderful dog. However, the kennel was clean [on a farm], the mother was gentle and attractive, the litter had had regular vet care [shots and wormed] and were free of any parasites. I never saw the father and was not interested in the [available] registration papers. The price was $200 [without papers], which seems to be the standard price around here -- the range in the classifieds seems to be $150-400. I tried the rescue route, but the nearest one was 300 miles and they would not consider adoptions without a home visit -- and we were too far away for that. We also considered the prison-trained dogs, but while we were waiting for a suitable golden this puppy became available. I would recommend having your vet check any puppy before you finalize the transaction. You can tell a lot by where the puppies are kept and by what they are being fed. I would pass on the breeder you describe.


It's wonderful that your dog ended up being a great companion without any major issues, but these days, it's really not conscionable to buy a Golden whose parents weren't cleared before being bred. We have tools that can greatly reduce the chance of crippling conditions, and they aren't terribly expensive. It's not ethical to skip them anymore because it puts dogs at unnecessary risk of suffering. 

Back in the day, it may have been OK to take those dogs out back and shoot them when they became lame at two or three years old, but I think most of us would agree that things have changed for the better since then.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

There is a big group of 'less than great' breeders out there who simply don't care - if the dogs can have pups, what's a limp or some coughing? Who cares if dad bumps into walls at night? 

The only reason for a breeder to not get clearances is greed, or ignorance. Sadly greed often wins out and even once a breeder knows what they 'should' do they don't want to stop breeding an unhealthy dog or start over, so they pretend it's not important. 

With border collies in Canada it's not the best, many dogs don't have clearances. Now however more are being advertised as having some, but the breeders don't care if they breed to a dog who is missing clearances. I've even seen dogs owned by the same person with missing clearances, which makes me think the dogs failed this or that so they just don't mention it. The result is dogs who end up suffering.

I could never breed a dog who wasn't as healthy as possible, when I could go get the clearances done first and make sure the odds were better. But then again I care.... 

Lana


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## MyJaxson (Jan 5, 2010)

goldenmommytobe said:


> ok I know it is not wise to buy from a backyard breeder but I just had a few q's. I've been doing some research and am not sure if this constitutes as a backyard breeder or what. The breeder I was just looking into but not buying from definitely says her pups are guaranteed healthy yet may have giardia even though they've been wormed and had their first shots. She says it's very common. Yet she guarantees their health? Isn' this part of health or am I wrong? She does not do hips eyes or elbows yet guarantees again that her pups won't have issues or else she will take back the dog or replace the pup and you keep the one with the issues as well. She does have her vet listed on her website, which I am going to call in the morning just to see if she's legit but her puppies do have fleas and need baths badly. They are also kept outside. She claims they spend their early weeks inside but I saw them only outside in a little chicken wire pen on her deck. I'm trying to do my homework but honestly we cannot afford a $1500-$2000 dog. I have had not luck finding a 3-4 year old dog and my 5 yr old really wants a small dog who will grow big. I do understand that. I also wonder about temperment in pups from backyard breeders. This lady claims she breeds for temperment. My biggest concern with a backyard breeder is getting a puppy with a bad temperment and then it bites one of my kids. If we socialize the pup properly will that help? I do plan to enroll the puppy in training classes asap and we have tons of dogs where we live that the puppy will meet. I bought my first golden from a petshop years ago. She had severe aggression issues but I also never properly socialized her. I had other dogs at the time and she wanted to be alpha and had biting isses actually with other animals. She was otherwise a great dog. I'm just curious and wondering if all backyard breeders are just in it to make money or this lady sounds like maybe she's half and half. she also doesn't register her pups with the akc though which also makes me wary. she says it's just a paper saying your pup is pure bred and you spend $75 to register them. I told her this wasn't true. I don't need papers. I'm just wondering if you all have ever gone with a byb and if so what did you look for? Thanks.


We got Jaxson from a less then great breeder, not knowing at the time, and he has not gone a month without being at the vet for something. If its out there he has had/done it... with the exception of hip and elbow issues (knock on wood). So paying $500 for him cost us $2500 in the first month with all his issues, and about $6000 in the first year. He is a 19 months now, we love him to bits, but he has been one expensive boy. He is still not 100% and we were again just at the vet friday...

so 1500 for a puppy is nothing compared to the potential of BYB vet bills... not to say the well known breeder wont have issue, but....


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## SandyK (Mar 20, 2011)

Goldenmommytobe-
I have read through all posts and I agree with looking for a good breeder not a BYB. I have to admit my puppy now if from a BYB with certs only from her father. However, I am well aware of what I might be getting myself into. Let me tell you this crazy situation...I lost my rescue golden on March 2nd to getting killed by my neighbor and her car. I was going to rescue again when one night a picture of this puppy came up on my computer...I fell in love. I called the next morning and set up to meet that day. Did not realize until I got to the breeders house that this was the same breeder I got my Abby from (who I lost last year to cancer and she was my medical child from day one). I passed her house on purpose and called my husband to tell him it was the same breeder we got Abby from. I thought he might tell me to turn around and come home, but he didn't, he said ok. In the 9 years we had Abby, we probably spent at least $40,000 on her medical expenses. She never had any tempermant issues and was a wonderful loving daughter that I would do anything for. So now I have Lily from the same breeder and could possibly end up with a medical child again. Some may think I am crazy(just a little) but I feel I rescued Lily from a not so great breeder and will make sure she has a good life (whatever $$ it takes). Unlike Bachelor, I will do whatever I can for Lily because she is a part of my family. So my opinion for you is save more money to purchase from a good breeder unless you are willing to pay any medical expenses that can happen from BYB's. Good-luck in whatever you decide to do.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

"Examination of the OFA database reveals the following mating probability results for 13,151 breeding pairs of dogs with known elbow status:
Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED
Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED
Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED​In this very large breeding study (primarily Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, and German Shepherd Dogs), the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected. In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1% - 31.3%), one would find few circumstances in which progress can be made by breeding a dog affected with ED."

I think these stats (directly from the OFA website) are pretty telling.... People who breed dogs without benefit of all available knowledge of the dog and it's siblings and parents are taking a ridiculous, needless risk and clearly have no interest in truly bettering the breed. 

Anyone who has read this thread and won't admit that BYBs are the devil simply doesn't want to see the light. :doh:


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