# Field Training September 2013



## hotel4dogs

Welcome to September, and hopefully cooler temperatures.
What's everyone doing these days?


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## Claudia M

it is still hot and humid outside here. On Friday I got the huge box from gundogsupply.com with mallard duck bumpers, the dove and duck scent bottles and the injector, plus several other bumpers since we now have two in training. 
DH is going tomorrow dove hunting and can't wait to see how they both do with the birds. Last time Rose had a bird in her mouth was last October. I hope to go dove hunting with Rose at least this year. 
Next weekend we will take them both swimming again and work on water retrieves.


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## hotel4dogs

We managed to fail both Master Hunter Upland (AKC Spaniel) tests this weekend. I posted about it on RTF, going to hop over there and cut and paste it onto here, so I don't have to re-type everything (it was long....)


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## hotel4dogs

ok, here goes. 
Day 1, Saturday:

Our first spaniel test was today.
He was failed for not quartering enough. This rather surprised me (and several other people who were watching), since the golden retriever hunting style says, "The golden, when on game either by air or ground scent, will show a good nose along with persistence and the excitement you would expect of any breed determined to flush its game to flight. *A well trained golden will likely work a field within gun range either in heavy or light cover. Its hunting pattern, dependent on the owners/trainers preference along with the prevailing winds, will be methodical and the dog should not avoid dense cover.*" (emphasis mine). That's all it says. No mention of quartering, unlike the spaniel hunting style descriptions. 
(goes on to talk about flushing and retrieving).
He was scored quite high on hunting ability, bird finding ability, flushing, and retrieving. But he got a "4" from each judge on "trainability" because he didn't quarter the way they would like to see, so he couldn't pass.

I am very, very pleased with him, however. He used his nose and the wind perfectly. Found the birds right away. Trapped one, trailed a runner, was totally steady. Found a previously shot bird that 4 people and 2 spaniels were not able to find.
He's a good dog.

And now I have a much better idea of the expectations and "rules of the game", so we know what we need to do.


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## hotel4dogs

someone on the other forum asked me to elaborate on the test, and here's what I posted:

Ok, here goes....
The first part was the finding, flushing, and retrieving. 
The field was a long straight field, set up so that there was a cross-wind. There were flags on each side of the "hunting area", I'd guess about 40 yards (I might be pretty far off on that) apart. The cover is what I would call moderate, you can see the dogs but it's about shoulder high to them. Well the cockers might have been hidden







. Seriously, the cover was thin enough that you could see even the smaller dogs when they would spring and quarter.
The bird planters planted a couple or three birds in the field. The marshall handed the handler a breaking style shot-gun, open. After giving the birds a few minutes to recover, the judge told the handler "the field is yours" and then you closed the gun and sent your dog. 
The dog heads out, the handler follows, the judges and the marshall and anyone else who wants to tag along are following behind the handler/dog, and the gunners are to each side and a little behind the rest of the troop. 
Your dog quarters (or in our case, not







) until he finds a bird. Then he flushes the bird, and has to immediately sit and be steady until sent. A whole bunch of things sort of happen at the same time here. The bird flies, the dog sits, you can blow the sit whistle, and you have to shoulder the gun and pretend you are shooting at the bird.
After the bird hits the ground, the judge taps you on the shoulder so that you know you can send your dog for the retrieve. It's a basic retrieve. I'd say most of the birds were dropping between 40-80 yards out. As soon as you send the dog you have to break the gun into the safe position. You can hand it to the judge if you want once it's open. 
The dog has to deliver to hand. You take the bird, hand it to the judge. 
Then they hand you back the gun, tell you the field is yours again, and you repeat the process.
If the dog catches (traps) the bird before it flies (my boy did on two birds), that's okay as long as the bird isn't killed. The judge will examine the bird to be sure the dog didn't munch on it. But that doesn't count as a flush/retrieve. You will have to find/flush another bird instead.
The dog has to find/flush/retrieve two birds. 
So that's the first series.
9 of the 18 dogs (master) went on to the next series, the "hunt dead", which is I think the spaniel version of a blind??? Although in the "hunt dead" in theory the handler doesn't know where the bird is, but today everyone knew exactly where it was.
Today's was about 60 or 65 yards out. The running line was in basically mowed grass. The dog had to run a short distance on the mowed grass, cross a gravel road, a little more mowed grass, and then into some decent cover for about 40 more yards. The entries were angles. 
But here's where it's so different. The dogs are sent more or less on a line toward the "blind", but then after they crossed the road they pretty much raced all over the field (quartering!!!) until they eventually caught a whiff of the bird, found it, and brought it back. Several of them ripped around the whole field for LONG periods of time. I didn't see any take a line that put them anywhere near the bird. 
I didn't watch the water retrieve or the water blind.​


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## hotel4dogs

and today, Sunday:

So Day 2, my boy managed to soundly and without any doubt in anyone's mind fail the test.
Started off, I did make him do more of a pattern today based on yesterday's experience. He found and flushed the first bird. As soon as I blew the sit whistle his fuzzibutt hit the ground. Rock steady until sent. Lovely retrieve, couldn't have asked for anything better.
Headed off again. Flushed the second bird. Again blew the sit whistle, again he sat immediately. Gunners missed the bird
(he was about 30 yards in front of us when he flushed it I think). Bird flew off. Dog stayed on his butt.
The judge said to me to go ahead and call him back whenever I was ready to. 
I blew the come in whistle, as he was a bit ahead of us.
DOG TOOK OFF FOR TEXAS IN HOT PURSUIT OF THE BIRD! 
Yikes!!! I thought I was going to lose a dog. Finally he stopped (on a VERY loud verbal command rather than a whistle) and came back.
Judges said "sorry". I said "thank you so much for your time and patience". 
SHEEESH.
I did have a chance to talk to the judges after that series, before the "hunt dead", and they had nothing but good to say about the monster boy







. Both said he had easily passed until that debacle at the end.







They commented that he "obviously loves the birds" and "has a lot of prey drive" (no kidding). They even offered me some suggestions to help prevent that from happening again, and we were all in agreement that handler error played a huge part, I should have told him "NO BIRD, HEEL" rather than blowing the come-in whistle.
What I think happened is I had been 2-whistling him in the field, and when he heard the whistle he didn't stop to count whether it was 2 (change directions) or 3 (come-in). Then once he was in hot pursuit, well, the game was over.
Now I know. USE VERBAL COMMAND. There's no confusion.
But overall a great day anyway.
I also talked to a few people who watched him run both yesterday and today, and all agreed I did the right thing entering him directly in Master. 
So...we had a lot of fun this weekend, met some AWESOME people, got some great experience and ideas. AND proved that *some* show goldens really can hunt, and really do have a lot of instinct and prey drive














.


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## Alaska7133

Barb,
Have a friend that used to judge spaniel tests. She loved it until AKC said she couldn't judge on horseback anymore. So now she just judges field trials. Since I've never seen a spaniel test, would you see any need to judge on horseback? Did the judges cover more ground than a field trial? Just curious.

I started Lucy on whistle sits. We heel and every time I stop and she sits, I blow the whistle. She looks at me and I say good girl. So far so good. I'll keep going and hope she continues to get it. She's 14 months old but still of vinegar. Her off lead heeling is going well, re-calls are very good. She's doing well on all the basics. No more goofing off on a retrieve. Now I have to get her to learn how to handle, or maybe I should say I need to learn how to handle.

Reilly is always a joy. His line manners were excellent right out of the box. He's one of those dogs you only have to show once and he's got it. I am debating whether to FF him. He is CC. His recall is excellent. How far do you go with a 1/2 blind 5 year old? 

Hunter has been fun now that he's decided to retrieve. All I do is throw fun bumpers. I don't make him stay or sit, I just throw and make sure none of the other dogs are around. He's a riot to see how excited he gets for a bumper.

The heat is on and the snow is down to 5000'. Down here on the ocean we're taking bets for the first day of snow. Got the woollies and the boots out. Last year the first day was Sept. 24. Duck season opened today.


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## hotel4dogs

I can't see any reason the judges would be on horseback for spaniel tests, although they often are for pointers. The judges walk A LOT, but it's a slow steady walk through the field. 
Just wait until the first time a big ol' pheasant flushes up a foot from Lucy and see how good her whistle sit is  .


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## gdgli

I ran Buffy Saturday and Sunday in JH at East Beirne, NY.

Sat.

Land series, singles down hill, dead bird into cover and then the flyer on edge of cover. Buffy ran right to them and brought them back. Judges say we have to make the water series harder.

Water series, dead bird thrown into the edge of rushes maybe 100 yds. away, Buffy does a pretty good job, swims right for it and brings it back. The next single thrown into water maybe 60 yds., several stumps in the pond, and Buffy checks out every stump, finally gets the bird. An absolutely terrible job. We don't train in stump ponds. Judges cut me a break and she qualifies.

Sun.

Land series, Buffy nails the flyer in cover, no hunt, brings it back. Dead bird is called a no bird, I come back three dogs later, dead bird into two foot high grass, she hunts an area about 5 yds., gets the bird and delivers it.

Water series, dead bird maybe 70 yds., she goes right to it and brings it back. Second dead bird 50 yds., same thing.

Buffy qualifies and earns her JH. OK, it's just a JH but I have a really high flying dog who is now under control. And now I feel great.


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## hollyk

Gdgli, You Wrote:
I am hoping for:
1) Decent line manners---she is a high flyer.
2) Nice lines to the mark. She does well, I'm just trying to see if the shore breaking drills hold.
3) Not over running the bird. She nails long marks but can over run the short ones. That's why we will be doing checkdown drills.

She is really OK, it's these hunt tests............

It doesn't sound like _just _ a JH to me.
Congrats to you and your high flying Buffy!


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## gdgli

hollyk said:


> Gdgli, You Wrote:
> I am hoping for:
> 1) Decent line manners---she is a high flyer.
> 2) Nice lines to the mark. She does well, I'm just trying to see if the shore breaking drills hold.
> 3) Not over running the bird. She nails long marks but can over run the short ones. That's why we will be doing checkdown drills.
> 
> She is really OK, it's these hunt tests............
> 
> It doesn't sound like _just _ a JH to me.
> Congrats to you and your high flying Buffy!


Thank you so much for the compliment. Yes, you are right in your comments. You hit the nail on the head. This is a far bigger accomplishment than it appears to be and I am bursting with joy. I so much don't want to brag but you said it for me. You have good insight.


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## MillionsofPeaches

yes, please don't downplay your accomplishments. When Kat finally earns her first title (probably started because of the order of the tests around here) I'm going to be brimming over with excitement! I think it is a big deal!


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## gdgli

I wish you and Kat well. Are you planning anything soon?


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## MillionsofPeaches

thanks! We have our first test on the 13/14th of September! It is now come down to practicing just for the test, without working on or adding new concepts to make sure she doesn't get herself confused. After we see how she does with the all the commotion and stuff of the test we'll start collar conditioning....(eek) I'm hoping she isn't bothered by the tests (she is very empathetic and feels my nerves too much so I'll try to keep myself calm.) WE had a seminar a couple weeks ago with our golden local club and she did awesome in front of all those strangers so.....keeping my fingers crossed!


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## gdgli

You have two weeks. You should do well.


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## hotel4dogs

Yay George and Buffy!!! Sounds like a terrific weekend. You should be very proud.


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## Claudia M

GOOD job Buffy!!!!!!!!!! Way to go George!!!


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## hollyk

Tito and Barb,

Thanks for taking the plunge for all of us.
Now that you know how it works you will be ready for next time.

SO what are you training for this fall, winter, spring, Upland or Master? :satan:





hotel4dogs said:


> and today, Sunday:
> 
> So Day 2, my boy managed to soundly and without any doubt in anyone's mind fail the test.
> Started off, I did make him do more of a pattern today based on yesterday's experience. He found and flushed the first bird. As soon as I blew the sit whistle his fuzzibutt hit the ground. Rock steady until sent. Lovely retrieve, couldn't have asked for anything better.
> Headed off again. Flushed the second bird. Again blew the sit whistle, again he sat immediately. Gunners missed the bird
> (he was about 30 yards in front of us when he flushed it I think). Bird flew off. Dog stayed on his butt.
> The judge said to me to go ahead and call him back whenever I was ready to.
> I blew the come in whistle, as he was a bit ahead of us.
> DOG TOOK OFF FOR TEXAS IN HOT PURSUIT OF THE BIRD!
> Yikes!!! I thought I was going to lose a dog. Finally he stopped (on a VERY loud verbal command rather than a whistle) and came back.
> Judges said "sorry". I said "thank you so much for your time and patience".
> SHEEESH.
> I did have a chance to talk to the judges after that series, before the "hunt dead", and they had nothing but good to say about the monster boy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Both said he had easily passed until that debacle at the end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They commented that he "obviously loves the birds" and "has a lot of prey drive" (no kidding). They even offered me some suggestions to help prevent that from happening again, and we were all in agreement that handler error played a huge part, I should have told him "NO BIRD, HEEL" rather than blowing the come-in whistle.
> What I think happened is I had been 2-whistling him in the field, and when he heard the whistle he didn't stop to count whether it was 2 (change directions) or 3 (come-in). Then once he was in hot pursuit, well, the game was over.
> Now I know. USE VERBAL COMMAND. There's no confusion.
> But overall a great day anyway.
> I also talked to a few people who watched him run both yesterday and today, and all agreed I did the right thing entering him directly in Master.
> So...we had a lot of fun this weekend, met some AWESOME people, got some great experience and ideas. AND proved that *some* show goldens really can hunt, and really do have a lot of instinct and prey drive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


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## PalouseDogs

*Last hunt tests of the year*

Recently joined this forum, but have visited off and on over the past years. Glad to see the hunt and field section is active.

I started hunt training with my golden, Maple, last year. We finished our JH last weekend and her SR (NAHRA Started, similar to AKC JH) on Saturday. I was ready to be out of the beginning classes. Not quite ready for the next level, but I entered Maple in our first AKC Senior last weekend and our first NAHRA Intermediate (similar to AKC Senior) yesterday. Maple did a great job on the double marks, but we need a whole lot of work on blinds. 

We're switching gears to OB for a couple of OB trials in the next month, then it's nothing but training (hunt and OB) until the first local shows in March or April next year.

Maple with her duck in the Carnation test last weekend:


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## gdgli

PalouseDogs said:


> Recently joined this forum, but have visited off and on over the past years. Glad to see the hunt and field section is active.
> 
> I started hunt training with my golden, Maple, last year. We finished our JH last weekend and her SR (NAHRA Started, similar to AKC JH) on Saturday. I was ready to be out of the beginning classes. Not quite ready for the next level, but I entered Maple in our first AKC Senior last weekend and our first NAHRA Intermediate (similar to AKC Senior) yesterday. Maple did a great job on the double marks, but we need a whole lot of work on blinds.
> 
> We're switching gears to OB for a couple of OB trials in the next month, then it's nothing but training (hunt and OB) until the first local shows in March or April next year.
> 
> Maple with her duck in the Carnation test last weekend:
> 
> View attachment 253650


Congratulations on the JH! It's good to see goldens in the field. 
Good luck!


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## hotel4dogs

Hi Kelly, welcome!
This is a kinder, gentler forum


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## Claudia M

ok, new hurdle - how do you stop a dog from rolling a bird in its mouth. I know the dove was little but Rose rolled it three different times today. She did not bite on it, she was still gentle but I just don't think this is something I should not correct immediately. 

I got the mallard ducks from gundogsupply.com and she does not roll them at all, with or without the scent. 

Any thoughts? Advice?

Second hurdle, Darcy drops the bird to our feet instead of holding it, she does not do that with bumpers.

I thought Rose was going to be more excited about the dove but she was just OK. So after about 6 small retrieves she went in the kennel and got to watch Darcy go after the bird. That got her enthusiasm back up. 

I did not know what to expect with Darcy so she got to be the first in the kennel and watch. She smelled the bird and almost passed. I asked her to take it and she did reluctantly. Then I took the bird and teased her with it and threw it again. All with a 26 ft retractable leash (I was afraid she may try to eat it so I needed the extra security). After a couple times it got better. 

All in all I am a bit deflated right now.


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## gdgli

Young dogs may do this. In training, using ducks might prevent her from developing this habit because they are larger. If I had this problem, I would work on hold and force fetch.


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## MillionsofPeaches

That is exactly what we did to stop Kat from rolling. She was taught ff and it pretty much stopped afterwards. It was weird how quickly she stopped. 
As far as you getting Darcy to take the bird from you.. she did good imo. Kat wouldn't take it all. So we spent a lot of time on that. AT least Darcy will accept it whether she wants to or not.


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## Claudia M

gdgli said:


> Young dogs may do this. In training, using ducks might prevent her from developing this habit because they are larger. If I had this problem, I would work on hold and force fetch.


Thanks George. Since she has never done it with bumpers (small or big) would you practice force fetch hold with feathers/bird wings attached to bumpers/paint roller? Also, would a frozen dove be better than a fresh one/thawed one? 
I have so far lots of pheasant/quail and grouse wings and several doves.


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## gdgli

My own sequence is: dumbbell, bumper, frozen bird, chilled bird, room temp bird. I have also done paint roller. I do 2x a day, no more than five minutes at a time.

I also will take my dog for a walk while she holds a bird or bumper, praise for the right hold. If I use a bird, I do it at night---I live in the city and don't want my neighbors to see it.

Evan has a good video on force fetch. Try to see it.


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## Alaska7133

We also added a live bird. We did 4 retrieves with a live pigeon at different distances. Lucy was perfect, the bird wasn't even wet. Other dogs won't pick up a live one or kill them. Just a thought to try. I don't know how your access is to live pigeons is though. We pinned one wing so the bird could only fly a short distance.


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## PalouseDogs

Claudia,

Finding a source of birds, and keeping birds (first dead and then live, if you get really serious), I think, is one of the most daunting aspects of hunt test work for a newbie. It was for me, and I live in the country next to a farm where the farm manager is always trying to shoot pigeons to keep them out of his pea elevator. 

When you say "dove", do you mean mourning dove? Eurasian collared dove? Or the common Rock Pigeon that you find in cities and farm structures? Mourning doves are really small, with loose feathers. Dogs often find them unpleasant to hold because of the soft, loose feathers, or, conversely, too tempting to bite down on. Rock pigeons are the prefered bird to start dogs on. They're not too small, but not so large the dog has to learn to hold them. Start with dead, frozen, but not decayed and smelly. (That will come later!) 

If you are willing to say where you live, maybe someone on the list can direct you to a source of pigeons in your area. Or, google hunter retriever clubs in your area and contact them for a couple of pigeons to get started. 

And don't get discouraged about the dog being initially unenthused about birds. A dead, cold bird isn't very inspiring. Once he starts associating the bird with retrieves, and especially after a few live flyers, if he has any instincts at all, watch out!


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## sterregold

We got back from the GRCC National Specialty in Halifax, Nova Scotia last night. My dogs were involved in the WC test, obedience and conformation. The WC test was on Friday--small entry. My little Wings was in WC, and she was the only WC dog to make it to water--then she got spooked on the first water retrieve and returned without her bird. Two dogs made it to WCI water--Butch and a dog from Alberta. Butch retrieved both his water birds, but the other dog would not go on the memory bird. There were no WCX dogs, as Bonnie had been the only one and I had pulled her due to her coming in season and staying behind to be bred. This meant that at the end of the test there was only one qualifying dog--Butch in WCI.
Saturday was the National conformation and obedience. Butch was in Novice A and qualified--not the greatest score as he had a few missed sits and heeled on the right for a bit in the heel free--but he pulled of a Q so that was fine by me!
Then we were on to conformation. Right at the end of the day, Breeze was the last class in the ring--Field Bitch. She was the only entry with the MH qualification for the class. Wings was in 12-18 months and placed 3rd. Butch was in Bred-by and won his class, and got to compete for Winner's Dog, but that was as far as he went.

By getting a conformation placement, qualifying score in obedience, and passing the field test, Butch won the Nan Gordon trophy--which is a versatility trophy offered by the GRCC at our National. Only one dog can win it in a given year (unlike the GRCA Triathlon.) If more dogs had met the qualifications, then they would have had to calculate scores based on the achievements. But as he was the only dog to pass the field test, he was the only one who qualified. He is the 14th dog in 30 years to have won the trophy, and it is the second time I have won it with one of my dogs.--Winter won it in 2007. (There have been 12 dogs to have won it with 9 owners.)


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## MillionsofPeaches

oh wow, Shelly, what an honor!


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## hollyk

Shelly,

Congratulations, this is very exciting news.
Looks like your program is right on track! I can't wait to see what the future brings you.


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## gdgli

Congratulations, sterregold. Quite an accomplishment.


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## hotel4dogs

woooo hoooo Shelly, way to go!!!!


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## Claudia M

Wonderful Shelly!!!!!!!!!!!!! Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Claudia M

PalouseDogs said:


> Claudia,
> 
> Finding a source of birds, and keeping birds (first dead and then live, if you get really serious), I think, is one of the most daunting aspects of hunt test work for a newbie. It was for me, and I live in the country next to a farm where the farm manager is always trying to shoot pigeons to keep them out of his pea elevator.
> 
> When you say "dove", do you mean mourning dove? Eurasian collared dove? Or the common Rock Pigeon that you find in cities and farm structures? Mourning doves are really small, with loose feathers. Dogs often find them unpleasant to hold because of the soft, loose feathers, or, conversely, too tempting to bite down on. Rock pigeons are the preferred bird to start dogs on. They're not too small, but not so large the dog has to learn to hold them. Start with dead, frozen, but not decayed and smelly. (That will come later!)
> 
> If you are willing to say where you live, maybe someone on the list can direct you to a source of pigeons in your area. Or, google hunter retriever clubs in your area and contact them for a couple of pigeons to get started.
> 
> And don't get discouraged about the dog being initially unenthused about birds. A dead, cold bird isn't very inspiring. Once he starts associating the bird with retrieves, and especially after a few live flyers, if he has any instincts at all, watch out!


I guess they are your regular pigeons. I am going to try to take a pic of a frozen one. This evening it went much better with both of them with the frozen pigeon. hahaha I may just have night/dark evening retrievers. Rose missed one time and it took her longer to find the bird. At least this time both were above excited about the bird; I was please how she took the direction in finding it. Darcy is finally figuring to return to the handler instead of the thrower. Rose will go back thru the force fetch hold with the frozen and then thawed and then freash killed doves. We did not do much of it because she never rolled the bumpers it just seemed like she aced it almost immediately (she still doesn't - it is weird how she does it only with the bird). Well, while I typed this I had my daughter take a picture of the frozen "thing". Here it is.


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## Claudia M

Here it is again! Sorry mouse all of a sudden stopped working with the laptop.


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## hollyk

Soooo, I day train with a Pro and he has helped Winter and I learn the big concepts. But equally important is the little things that he can quickly pick out.
Last week I was down training with him on one of my favorite spots. 1st mark goes up and just as the 2nd mark is being thrown I hear.
"No, No, No, Your Killing Me!!!!! Everyone pick them up!"
Then I get a 5 minute lecture on how I'm turning off the marks way too soon.
What happen to my 3 second count?
Stop worrying if she is going to swing with me and let her mark.
Master is next up and she is going to have to MARK those birds.
Keep doing this and she will learn to flash mark, not a good thing......

You would think by now I would not be swinging her off birds so fast. Something so simple and yet I still do it.....and as always he picks up on it so fast.


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## hotel4dogs

Ah, yes, I get crabbed at for that all the time, too!


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## Claudia M

ok, went to another bird. This time it was frozen with the feathers on. I can understand why they would rather not hold the fresh one, the feathers were coming off even with me holding it in my hand. I must admit it was funny to see Rose trying to spit those feathers out that were stuck to her mouth the other day.
This morning each practiced holding a frozen dove. There was no rolling. Interesting how Rose holds the bird further back in her mouth while Darcy holds it more in the front. Would it have anything to do with the longer snout that Darcy has?


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## Claudia M

Sorry - just realized that Darcy looks drunk in the first pic. Her behind is sliding on the floor so she was struggling to sit still without sliding.


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## Alaska7133

Claudia,
before I store my birds I dry them in my heated garage. Then I wrap them in newspaper. Then I put them in a paper shopping bag with the top open. Then I set them on the shelf in the freezer. If I seal them in a plastic bag there is frost inside the bag and the pigeons are wet when I take them out. The freezer will dry whatever moisture is left on them. I know people who use newspaper and burlap bags. It might be that your dogs are getting wet pigeons when they thaw a bit and they don't like the taste or moisture?


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## hollyk

hotel4dogs said:


> Ah, yes, I get crabbed at for that all the time, too!


Maybe we should start a list of the top 5 things we get in trouble for. :doh:

I know that day I was hurrying through the marks because I was worried about the blind. It was straight up a narrow stream bed and under a foot bridge and I wasn't sure how it would go.


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## hotel4dogs

1. SLOW DOWN!!!!!! 
2. Be sure his spine is in the right direction before you send him
3. Don't let him get away with goofing off at the line after a retrieve
4. SLOW DOWN!!!!!
5. SLOW DOWN!!!!!


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## gdgli

hotel4dogs said:


> 1. SLOW DOWN!!!!!!
> 2. Be sure his spine is in the right direction before you send him
> 3. Don't let him get away with goofing off at the line after a retrieve
> 4. SLOW DOWN!!!!!
> 5. SLOW DOWN!!!!!



Let me guess: You cast too quickly after giving a sit whistle.


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## hollyk

hotel4dogs said:


> 1. SLOW DOWN!!!!!!
> 2. Be sure his spine is in the right direction before you send him
> 3. Don't let him get away with goofing off at the line after a retrieve
> 4. SLOW DOWN!!!!!
> 5. SLOW DOWN!!!!!


LOL

1. Do not swing so fast on Marks.
2. You need to take more time communicating the line on blinds
3. Now you are over detailing her on the initial blind line.
4. If you want a angle back and you give it with that big verbal "back" she is going to go straight back and not take the angle. 
5. If it is going really wrong, stop for the day and call me.

Edited to add.

Define your initial line BEFORE you send your dog.


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## hotel4dogs

guilty as charged!



gdgli said:


> Let me guess: You cast too quickly after giving a sit whistle.


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## MillionsofPeaches

One of the things I get crabbed at for by the pro is forgetting the whistle at the line. I will have it right on me, set it down, and forget it. I have to hang my head down and ask for whistle assistance often. eek. But, hey, I'm just as excited as the dog to get up there!


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## Claudia M

Stacey, do you take the guts out? Don't they stink if you let them out? I have been trying to figure out how to do this. 
With the first dove (which we first used before it was frozen) I noticed that the feathers come out so quickly, even just holding it in my hand and then when in the freezer just the skin is exposed (I think that it was a bit cold on their teeth).
I haven't thrown them since Monday, we have been practicing just hold, both inside and outside, walking holds etc. So far so good.


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## Claudia M

Shelby, Peaches is just adorable in your sig pic!


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## Alaska7133

Claudia,
I've only thrown ducks in the water not pigeons, so I don't know if pigeons will float except maybe when they are frozen. The only thing you might take out would be the breast of a duck if they are wild, then you don't have wonton waste and they still float. Pigeons loose their feathers, heads, wings, etc. they can't be thrown a lot of times before they are done. Ducks last a very long time. If you compete in a hunt test, hang around until the end, a lot of times they give away the ducks from the test. That's how I got mine and then you can volunteer to help clean up. I got my pigeons from a guy at a warehouse that shooting them pooping on his stuff. Find someone at uses a pellet gun. Going back to the pigeons. I usually don't thaw them for very long before throwing, maybe an hour. They hold together better when frozen. Ducks I leave out over night. I haven't had to do FF with birds with my dogs, do your dogs need FF with birds? If they don't I wouldn't give the birds to the dogs to carry so the birds don't get even more destroyed. Lucy has been killing small birds in our yard. This week a robin and a sparrow.


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## gdgli

I have heard of removing duck entrails and then filling the cavity with expanding foam. Haven't done it myself.


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## sterregold

I have put foam into some of my hunted ducks that I had breasted out. They work quite well on water!! But you want to do it when you have a few birds, as otherwise you waste your can of spray foam.


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## Alaska7133

The foam would probably help a lot on those old birds that sink more than float. It's tough for the dogs to see those half floating birds.

Any ideas on what to do with Lucy killing birds in the yard? So far this week one robin and one sparrow. When I see her with one, I call her to heel and she hands off the bird nicely. But one was alive and one was dead. Her reactions have been good when I call her to heel. The first bird she killed she was only 9 weeks old. That first one I had to do a bit of convincing to get it from her. Now she's coming to heel and handing off. So I guess I should be happy? She does not chase squirrels, cats, or other non-birds.


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## MillionsofPeaches

thank you, Claudia!


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## Claudia M

Alaska7133 said:


> Claudia,
> I've only thrown ducks in the water not pigeons, so I don't know if pigeons will float except maybe when they are frozen. The only thing you might take out would be the breast of a duck if they are wild, then you don't have wonton waste and they still float. Pigeons loose their feathers, heads, wings, etc. they can't be thrown a lot of times before they are done. Ducks last a very long time. If you compete in a hunt test, hang around until the end, a lot of times they give away the ducks from the test. That's how I got mine and then you can volunteer to help clean up. I got my pigeons from a guy at a warehouse that shooting them pooping on his stuff. Find someone at uses a pellet gun. Going back to the pigeons. I usually don't thaw them for very long before throwing, maybe an hour. They hold together better when frozen. Ducks I leave out over night. I haven't had to do FF with birds with my dogs, do your dogs need FF with birds? If they don't I wouldn't give the birds to the dogs to carry so the birds don't get even more destroyed. Lucy has been killing small birds in our yard. This week a robin and a sparrow.


The doves/pigeons are definitely not for water retrieves; only land.


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## hotel4dogs

Photos from last weekend's spaniel tests:

If anyone is bored....
Go to www.melodycarranza.com
Click on the 2013 WESSA hunt test SUNDAY gallery
Look at photos #50, 51, 52 and 53.
Also gives you a good idea of the cover we were hunting in, it did call for a decent nose.


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## Alaska7133

Barb,
Could you list the breeds that ran the spaniel test those days? Just curious. I thought I saw a clumber in one photo, but I'm not up on all the spaniel breeds. It's nice that you had a good photographer there that day.


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## hotel4dogs

I'll try....
Curly coated retrievers, flat coated retrievers, labrador retrievers, golden retriever, english springer spaniels (mostly those!), field spaniels, English cocker spaniels, clumber spaniels, airedales. I *think* that's it.
The photographer happened to be a club member, so we were very lucky!


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## Alaska7133

Airedales, I'm surprised. My husband used one as a kid to hunt bears. He thought it was ferocious.


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## MillionsofPeaches

wow that photographer is awesome! You guys are lucky!


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## Claudia M

would any of you put a 4 year old flattie thru force break? She has the desire to retrieve, she is a phenomenal swimmer. But she drops the bumper as soon as she comes out of the water. She takes it when told, brings it closer but still does not deliver to hand. She has not done that on land. We'll see this evening, weather permitting if she will now do it on land as well.


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## Alaska7133

Yes I would. I had to with Lucy. The instinct is to shake when exiting the water. If you plan is to hunt, she could drop a live bird and have it fly away. So yes I call it water force fetch, whatever it is, it is necessary if you hunt or do hunt tests. So yes you have to go through the ear pressure and hold when they come out. If she's already done FF, then it should go pretty quickly once she figures out what you are after. I would do it soon before your lakes freeze up and she's ready to go it the spring. You want a nice start to spring, not messing with manners. Just my 2 cents, I'm not a trainer.


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## Claudia M

Thank you Stacey, unfortunately I don;t think she will be ready before spring. She is very sensitive to correction (I guess her past 4 years has something to do with it)/ so instead of the "hell week" I may have to just take her slowly.


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## sterregold

FF does not have to be a horror show. You would only use as much pressure as SHE needs. And I would do it after doing lots of work up on a table on hold first.


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## Vhuynh2

This is how I taught Molly but keep in mind I am very new at this  : She spent the first 14 months of her life dropping toys coming out of the water before we started field training. She definitely developed a habit but with her thankfully it was an easy habit to break. 

When we started the FF process, I'd stand at the edge of the bank, telling her "hold" as she is coming out of the water, and I grab it from her before she had a chance to drop it. When she got used to the fact that I had to take it from her and she cannot drop it, I started asking for more, like waiting for her to come closer to me before I grabbed it. Eventually I had her return to heel and continue holding. I never gave her a chance to drop the bumper. She might still shake on the way back to me but she won't drop the bird. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


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## hotel4dogs

another newbie here, but....
Dropping it because she is stopping to shake is a violation of the HERE/HEEL commands, which she should already know.
We taught it easily (no ear pinching, no force) with a long line. When he would come out of the water, it was "here heel here" tugging on the rope. 
"Here" or "Heel" means NOW, not when you get around to it after having dropped the bird, shaken, and picked it back up.
Just my $ .02 .


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## EvanG

sterregold said:


> *FF does not have to be a horror show.* You would only use as much pressure as SHE needs. And I would do it after doing lots of work up on a table on hold first.


Absolutely correct on all points. Done properly, FF usually requires little actual pressure.

EvanG


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## Alaska7133

Vhuynh,
You're right about being at the edge of the water to catch them before they have a chance to drop it. I did that with Lucy, but found the only way to get her to graduate to hold, was to use the ear pressure. Hated to do it, but Lucy was a tough customer overall on FF. It definitely depends on the dog. Lucy was fine after a few times. The only thing I can say that really helped was timing. Catching them at that right moment before they dropped the bumper. Having success as soon as possible.


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## PalouseDogs

I had the same experience as hotel4dogs. The pro I took a few lessons from told me that stopping to shake was a recall issue, not a hold issue. Enforce the recall and don't even worry about whether the dog drops the bumper. In my case, I enforced the recall with an ecollar. (Obviously, the dog needs to understand recall on land, first.)

Start calling as the dog reaches the shore, give (in my case, the lowest level) stimulation if the dog stops to shake. Don't worry about what he does with the bumper. If he learns to not stop and shake, he won't drop the bumper. You can substitute a rope for an ecollar to enforce Come; it's a little more awkward.

Associate shake with a command so you can let him know when it's okay to shake. 

There is a danger in rushing to grab an ear to make the dog pick up the bumper. He may misinterpret what he's doing wrong and start avoinding you on the water exit or start coming very slowly.


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## Claudia M

I was afraid that it may have extended to the land retrieves but DH worked with her on land today while I was in class with Rose. She did drop the first one and he asked her to take it and bring it and she did not drop afterwards.


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## gdgli

Turn around and briskly walk away from the shore. Don't stop, the dog will catch up to you. Take the bird and give lots of praise. Don't be afraid to pet your wet dog in giving praise. Let her know what you want.


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## Claudia M

hahaha George - as long as she doesn't drop the bumper and runs after me without it!


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## hotel4dogs

LOL if it were Tito, and a bird, he'd just head for the car to take his bird home with him and hope I didn't notice!


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## K9-Design

Yes you can FF an adult dog.
Work on short hand thrown retrieves in the water with a flexilead on, and pull her quickly from the shore when she exits so she doesn't have time to stop, drop and shake. "HERE" "HERE"
I have had success using swift multiple pops on the pinch collar in lieu of ear pinch, for a dog who was not force fetched but needed a correction for dropping the bumper. Was much more cumbersome and less effective but it did make an improvement. They have to know they are not allowed to drop it on their own accord.


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## gdgli

Yesterday was tough. I got frustrated, overworked my dog when I should have quit, confused her and then I got ticked off. I should know better.

On the other hand, today went beautifully, far better than I expected. We did water T and there were no problems.


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## Claudia M

it is so hard to quit when you know that they should be able to do something, and then you double guess yourself, maybe if I try it this way or that way. We had a day like this today. Darcy did excellent on Monday night, Rose was great in class on Monday night, this morning both were excellent and this evening both were horrible. To make everyone feel better, we heeled all the way home, we did a couple fronts, heel and around commands with each and called it a day.


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## gdgli

Claudia M said:


> it is so hard to quit when you know that they should be able to do something, and then you double guess yourself, maybe if I try it this way or that way. We had a day like this today. Darcy did excellent on Monday night, Rose was great in class on Monday night, this morning both were excellent and this evening both were horrible. To make everyone feel better, we heeled all the way home, we did a couple fronts, heel and around commands with each and called it a day.


You ended on a good note...that's good.


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## Claudia M

Except Rose knew I wasn't happy. She is so empathetic! It is scary.


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## hollyk

Trained yesterday, started on land with 3 back to back doubles, followed by a short keyhole blind and then a long blind over land with a pretty good roll. We used 2 holding blinds to set up the keyhole blind. Winter did well on the doubles. I think I ended up with 3 whistles on the keyhole. I don't think she is quite seeing that picture yet. On the long land blind my training partners pointed out that although I'm pointing my left foot at the blind pole I'm twisting my upper body toward her thus pushing the line left. I need to stand up straight!
We then moved to water blinds. One really long shoreline, ran it tight to the shore and we struggled on it, especially at the end. The other water blind was over two points, Winter went over the first point but got hung up on the second one, it took a nick with a big verbal "back" to get her to push back off the point. Water blinds are still a work in progress.


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## hotel4dogs

I put some dead ducks WAY out in the alfalfa field today (alfalfa is tall now), and figured I'd work on the Monster Boy's quartering a little bit.
Nope, he had other ideas. Head went up, nose going every which way, then STRAIGHT to the first bird, 65 yards out. Nose down, picked it right up.
Ok, let's try that again. Same thing on the second bird.
So much for that plan.


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## MarieP

Tuesday, Riot and I went out with my trainer and did marks and blinds with our dogs. As much as I like working with a training group, this was a really nice session with just Riot and her three. We got so much done in such a small amount of time. I feel a lot less pressure. 

Riot did really well. He pinned all six of his singles in a field that he had never been to, and it was full of hay bales. We did some of the marks throwing over the bales and he had no problems. His blinds were not great, but not horrible. He just needed some reminders about paying attention. We put blind poles up for him still. At one point, he was really close to the pole and we thought he saw it because he took a hard cast and kept plugging along. But then he ran right past the pole. Trainer said she was "amazed." I asked her if she was amazed in a good way. She said "Yes! I thought he was going because he saw it, but he was going because he was saying 'you casted me this way so this must be the way she wants me to go.' That's a good thing!" Way to go punky doodle! 

Now onto the bad news. After our great session, Riot went lame, again. Really lame. There happened to be a massage therapist at trainers place, so she worked on him. She said he was very knotted up on both sides in the front. But even after about a 20 minute massage and icing, he was still lame. UGH! We didn't work him in obedience and just let him rest. I took him to the vet Wednesday morning. They did a bunch of xrays and they have sent them to a radiologist. I should hear Monday what they think. 

He has ED in his right elbow that I already knew about from when we got his OFA last summer. I'm worried that it is getting worse, because he has been lame on and off for a while now. It was the worst it has been this week. I've been trying to keep him quiet, but he is driving me crazy. I took him out for a short wagon wheel session today because he was looking like he was gaiting well. Of course, he is now limping again. UGH UGH!! 

Waiting to see what happens. Riot never slows down, even when he is lame, so I'm not sure what we are going to do. Keep little Riot in your thoughts...


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## Claudia M

Poor Riot!!!! Is he taking any Adequan? Joint supplements?


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## Alaska7133

Marie,
My boy Reilly has super bad ED, more on his right side. I've used acupuncture weekly with pretty good success. Also once adequan comes back on the market, give him injections once a week. I've had a lot of help from B12 injections also. His lameness does go up and down. But regular daily off leash walks are the best help. I try to do at least 3 miles a day, although I don't always get out every day. Some days are better than others. The goal is less arthritis in the future. After a really active day I will dose Reilly with Tramadol and rimadyl so he can get some good sleep and heal. Usually in the morning he isn't lame, but sometimes he still is.

Does Riot have his front legs stretched out in front of him when he lays down? Does he cross his front legs when he lays down with his elbows out? Or does he turn his elbows in? That will tell you which direction his joints are bad. I think when they lay like that the pain is really bad. I watch my pup Lucy to make sure she doesn't tear on him too much when he's feeling rough.

Do you swim him much? It might be time to do more water retrieves. Sorry to hear Riot is lame. ED is an awful problem. It's good that you had it diagnosed when he was young so to can make adjustments now. The hardest part is stopping them from doing too much when they are having such a good time.


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## hotel4dogs

Ah geez Marie, I sure hope Riot is okay.
Where is Millions of Peaches? Didn't they have their first tests this weekend?


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## MillionsofPeaches

hotel4dogs said:


> Ah geez Marie, I sure hope Riot is okay.
> Where is Millions of Peaches? Didn't they have their first tests this weekend?


Thanks for asking! We just got back a few hours ago and we're whipped. It was so fun, I had a great time for my first test ever in anything other than a CGC, ha ha, if that counts.

Katniss passed both days! So two down two to go. The first actual test was water the first day. She LOVES water so she got all excited. She frets so much on land but in water she is happy and free. Her field that afternoon was sloooowwwww she was hot and there were burrs everywhere so every step she took she looked at where she put her paw. every.step.she.took.omg. But she passed. 
The second day the field was first and she did perfect, I was feeling more relaxed and confident until we got to water. All these little things happened right before we walked up. So I was a mental mess and Kat (majorly empathetic to me) was wigging out but then she heeled on the way down okay. When Kat left for her first mark she was steady looking. She had heeled nicely on the right side which is her weaker side. I felt good. Then she took off in a slow trot, swam in and got right back out and then went sniffing in the woods by the bank like she was on a sunday stroll. I was confused but called her back and recast her and she went fine on my line. weird. The second mark there was this mother and son all walking on the shore and hugging and talking and Kat veered to them. I held her off for as long as I could but the last ten feet or so she cheated and walked back. but she passed. I was so relieved I almost passed out. eight longest minutes of my life! 
I do have to say that the judges I had on both days were the nicest people. They both talked to me and gave me feedback. Very kind. It made my first test a very happy one!


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## hollyk

Holy Smokes, two passes!
Big Congrats!


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## gdgli

MoP

Sounds like you had a terrific experience. Nice judges add much to it. They can be very helpful.

Congratulations!


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## Claudia M

Congrats Shelby and Kat!!!!


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## hotel4dogs

Way to go!! Two passes!


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## boomers_dawn

OMG I can't believe I haven't visited by here since Aug! I got sick then had to travel for work. 

Congratulations gdg and Shelley.

I entered Gladys in WCX but haven't had as much time to train her as I should have (for same reasons as above). Neither of us are too expert at triples yet.

So we've been cramming for WCX triples. I never saw so many ways to screw up as a handler (seeing her aimed to the wrong bird and my mouth sending her before my brain corrects her lining). 

Poor Gladys, the queen of lining up where I send her, going where she wants, then splitting the difference and switching.

To add to the complication, I started her on triples always doing outside/outside/inside to minimize the splitting; dog skool teecher sed sometimes you should pick up the birds in order instead ... so I asked how do you know when to do what? But, just like at work ... it depends. 

On what? On the test of course. What about the test? Everything about it.

Doh! Whatever the hell that means! It means watch dog skool teecher run first and try to pick up the same order he does. 

So yesterday we had a scenario where it was better to do short to long. Gladys seemed to want to do outside/outside/inside and I asked can't we try it her way and see if it goes better? 
But he said NO.

So we did it his way and of course it was a debacle. Thankfully the winger malfunctioned (b/c the person loading it did it wrong LOL) on the last series so she only got a double and we ended on SUCCESS!

Earlier in the week our other group had birdboy error and she got some handy no bird practice.

So ... we train again today .. and then we go to the test Saturday b/c I'm the chief marshall and have to work all day anyway .. and we see what we get.

On a humorous note, we did a double blind yesterday. I thought Gladys did a great job and was jumping up and down cheering. My fellow training groupies were clapping and saying how great she did. Dog skool teecher was covering his face laughing! I asked why he was laughing and he said he wasn't. He sure was laughing!! So I asked again. He said Gladys went the wrong way 4 X = 4 cast refusals. And we all thought she did good!
:cookoo: Not good enough for Masters .. I was just happy like we solved a puzzle together and she came back with the bumper but now we have to control outselves better.


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## hotel4dogs

It's 92 degrees and humid today, so we had to stay in the water at Dan's. It's been cool recently, so the water wasn't too hot.
We had planned to start out with 4 water blinds, with increasingly tighter angles. But there was a stupid duck near one of the decoys, and he apparently was in love with it or something as he had no intention of leaving. So we ended up having to "dispatch" it, and Tito got a really nice, unplanned water retrieve of a crippled duck. 
On to the 4 blinds, and then a channel blind. He did a respectible job.
When he got in the crate in the 4 wheeler to go to the next field, I noticed he was sitting with one foot up off the ground, but didn't think much of it except to think that it was a bit strange. 
The next item was a couple of long marks in the swamp, some singles, some easy doubles. He marked really nicely, and we were very pleased with him. It was lunging and swimming water combined.
Back to the clubhouse, and I decided to toss a couple of bumpers in the "clean pond" to get the muck off of him.
When he came out after the first one, I noticed he was limping quite a bit on a front leg or foot.
Poor boy, it was probably bad through the whole lesson and because we were more in water than on land, I didn't pay attention to it.
I don't see anything obviously wrong with it. But he needs a couple days of r, r, & r (rest, relaxation, and rimadyl!). 
I feel kinda bad. I should have paid more attention when he was holding his foot up when he was in the crate.


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## sterregold

We trained last night--big drive hills and drive over-hils marks. Paid for it today with a major allergy outbreak from all of the ragweed. We are now losing light pretty fast, so it looks like it was the last of the evening training for us anyhow. Did two marks and a blind, and then did another quick two marks and by 7pm the sun was getting very low as the last dog was running.


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## boomers_dawn

We went to WCX training. Gladys screwed up, gave up on her memory bird and switched to the middle bird then needed help remembering the memory bird. Of course stopping to poop on the way back from the go bird didn't help her memory any 
So we repeated it with rehearsal of the memory bird then the triple ... she still took squirrel lines but managed to figure everything out.
So ... we shall see what we get on Saturday.


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## hollyk

We trained today too. The concept was to be able to no off a mark and run a blind. We are pretty new at running this and we did so so.
We also talked about watching out for the little things today. 
Stuff like holding her on each mark, I'm doing better at this.
Watching out for the extra steps in the whistle sit, a maintenance thing for us.
Identifying quickly when she is giving into factors and then be on the whistle. 
The Pro liked that I can detail her better at the line on blinds but she is fronting me too much and I need to get that under control. 
Small things that can snowball on you.
The weather was great cool sunny in the morning warming up to about 75 by afternoon. A perfect end of the summer day.


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## hollyk

hotel4dogs said:


> When he came out after the first one, I noticed he was limping quite a bit on a front leg or foot.
> Poor boy, it was probably bad through the whole lesson and because we were more in water than on land, I didn't pay attention to it.
> I don't see anything obviously wrong with it. But he needs a couple days of r, r, & r (rest, relaxation, and rimadyl!).
> I feel kinda bad. I should have paid more attention when he was holding his foot up when he was in the crate.


Ouch, hope Tito recovers quickly.


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## K9-Design

Oh Barb you big weenie you mean you had to kill the duck and not run a blind past him? Hello it's called a POISON BIRD!


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## sterregold

K9-Design said:


> Oh Barb you big weenie you mean you had to kill the duck and not run a blind past him? Hello it's called a POISON BIRD!


We do this all the time with the resident geese on a couple of the ponds we use--just train around them. Really consolidates the concept of a poison bird blind when the dog has to swim past live geese to retrieve a bumper!


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## hotel4dogs

LOL, we've done it with geese, but not a duck swimming amongst the decoys. I think that would just be a bit too much for his little pea brain to handle  .



K9-Design said:


> Oh Barb you big weenie you mean you had to kill the duck and not run a blind past him? Hello it's called a POISON BIRD!


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## hotel4dogs

We've trained around geese, but not a live duck. I think that, since he's had to retrieve quite a few live ducks on water, it would just be too much for him. On a mark, maybe. (Probably not). But on a blind...no way! 
He can be naughty when there's a live bird nearby.

edit to add....come to think of it, we've never trained around ONE goose, just around a flock of geese. Not sure how he'd react to just one goose, as he has retrieved them before. Dead of course. Live ones are nasty animals!



sterregold said:


> We do this all the time with the resident geese on a couple of the ponds we use--just train around them. Really consolidates the concept of a poison bird blind when the dog has to swim past live geese to retrieve a bumper!


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## Claudia M

we are mostly working with Darcy, trying to bring her into a good condition. She is finally starting to gain some muscle and finally she is not pooping every time she goes outside. 
Meanwhile I am checking the farms to see when we can take Rose dove hunting. 
Since I am by myself with them in the mornings I have been just playing with them with the frisbee, one for each. Darcy tend to go after both and tries to bring them both. Rose does not want to "fight" for it, if Darcy is closer she sits until Darcy takes it in her mouth and them comes along side her. So I have been telling Rose to take it as soon as Darcy dropped one or was struggling with one on the ground. She did it every time and brought it back while Darcy was still strolling back towards me with the remaining one. 
So we are not really doing field work during the week but I try to re-encourage the commands and the behavior of bringing back the frisbee while trying to build up Darcy's endurance and moderating Rose's. Rose would go until she drops or I drop - not sure which one will happen sooner. 
Darcy will start obedience class in October and that way DH will have the afternoon with Rose in the back yard to work her alone. Lately Darcy howling in the kennel every time the bumper is thrown seems to upset Rose and impact her retrieves. I cannot leave Darcy in the house alone due to her separation anxiety. 
Still pleased with my baby Rose as she behaves very nicely in the kennel during Darcy's turns, she looks for the bumper and moves around the kennel but she does not whine and howl.


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## sterregold

Well I would have been taking advantage of that duck for a good lesson! In a test where we had flyers on water, Breeze had to do her water blind angle down the shore right past the live station and the crate full of flapping, squawking ducks. And I have been in other tests where dogs popped wild birds up while doing a blind.It really is something you might run into in a test. It is training--take advantage of the scenarios when nature presents them--you are getting him ready for Master after all.....




hotel4dogs said:


> We've trained around geese, but not a live duck. I think that, since he's had to retrieve quite a few live ducks on water, it would just be too much for him. On a mark, maybe. (Probably not). But on a blind...no way!
> He can be naughty when there's a live bird nearby.
> 
> edit to add....come to think of it, we've never trained around ONE goose, just around a flock of geese. Not sure how he'd react to just one goose, as he has retrieved them before. Dead of course. Live ones are nasty animals!


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## MillionsofPeaches

oh, man, I hope Tito recovers quickly. 
Sounds like you are doing great with Darcy and being patient to her anxieties. It will pay off in the end 

Yesterday was a fun day, we did some no bird games and kat loved that! Until she found a tennis ball in the middle of this crazy random field! How in the world did it get there! But we had to redirect her attention so I used the tennis ball to my advantage. 
she started cc yesterday as well and was nervous but did great! She didn't run away or break down or anything like that so I am hoping it is a quick and easy condition. 
Today I worked on simple casting and some simple obedience. Then we played and played. Boy did Kat need that, too, she has been working a lot lately.


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## hotel4dogs

Tito's leg seems to be back to 100% today, no idea what he did to it but luckily it was minor!


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## hotel4dogs

I have a feeling it would have been a pretty major battle to try to cast him past a live duck on a tight angle entry/exit blind! I think we're just not ready for that level yet.


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## hotel4dogs

on a different note, when we ran the upland (AKC Spaniel) tests, there were chukkars in the field for some reason. Someone must have been training or trialing there with them quite recently. 
The judges instructed the gunners NOT to shoot the chukkars if the dog flushed a chukkar instead of a pheasant, and the handlers to consider it a "no-bird". 
It did add a little interest to the test.


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## K9-Design

One of the ponds we train at, there are a half dozen or so escaped flyers who have congregated and are now pets. We regularly put marks & blinds past them and have never had a dog go after them. The ducks are kinda smart, too, rather than flapping away they just paddle smoothly.
I have trained on throwing a bird en-route while the dog is on a water blind, that BLEW FISHER'S MIND the first time! LOL WHISTLE WHISTLE WHISTLE


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## sterregold

hotel4dogs said:


> I have a feeling it would have been a pretty major battle to try to cast him past a live duck on a tight angle entry/exit blind! I think we're just not ready for that level yet.


Training is fluid. Teaching re-entry blinds (over four consecutive points) I chased Breeze all the way out running around to stand on each successive point the first time we did it. It was a battle, but then the next time it got better.

So in a case where something like this presented itself, that offers a valuable lesson, I might have changed the angle of entry to take that factor out for the time, and make use of the bird, rather than just sluicing it on the water. Could it have been messy handling him past a live bird, certainly--but it was also a natural opportunity to work on a skill he is going to need to have. Even if it became a bit of a whistle/correction fight it is an experience he could learn from. Challenging them in training is necessary to elevate their skill set. I have often ended up doing a setup that focuses on a different skill than I had planned on heading out because of wind or other circumstances--just keep track of the skill worked on in the training log, and how well the session went so you know if it is a skill that still needs work.


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## sterregold

K9-Design said:


> One of the ponds we train at, there are a half dozen or so escaped flyers who have congregated and are now pets. We regularly put marks & blinds past them and have never had a dog go after them. The ducks are kinda smart, too, rather than flapping away they just paddle smoothly.
> I have trained on throwing a bird en-route while the dog is on a water blind, that BLEW FISHER'S MIND the first time! LOL WHISTLE WHISTLE WHISTLE


That is the cruelest form of poison bird blind a judge can use!!! Nightmares about the possibility of getting that scenario with Bonnie--she is already pretty self-employed!!!


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## hotel4dogs

We are having lots of things falling apart recently. Mea culpa, we haven't been training. And now with the spaniel tests, Dan and I are in agreement not to put too much *control* on him for now. Especially with the "hunt dead", which involves him needing to go hunt up a bird on his own on what looks like a blind. It may be a bit confusing for now, but it will be okay in the long run.
Saw a terrible erosion in his water blinds, which we haven't run in ages, where he apparently thought that "over" meant stop, look at me, and then continue on in the same direction you were originally heading. THAT's what we were planning to work on, and the stupid duck just didn't fit into that plan! 
We even went back to the swim-by pond for a quick refresher course in what an "over" is in the water. 
One nice thing about training at a hunt club is that the opportunities for live birds are endless, and when (if?) we get to the stage that we want to run a blind past a swimming duck, it's easy enough to re-create. But I can't set him up for something that I know is going to be ugly, and counter-productive to what I'm trying to accomplish that day. If he won't take a decent over without a live duck swimming around him, no point in trying it with one.
Philosophically, Dan doesn't worry too much about an "over" in the water, as long as he will take an angle back and a nice literal cast. He says if you need to use an "over", chances are you've let him get so far off the line you aren't going to be passing anyway. But it is a nice tool to have, just in case you do someday need to use it.
The other problem that we are having is the confusion of having Dan handle him sometimes, and sometimes he's in the field throwing a mark or doing a bird boy blind. It's a minor thing, but Tito does tend to have one eye on Dan which can cause some problems. If it's anyone but Dan, it's not an issue.
So many things to work through.
My main focus right now is upland, for a couple of reasons. One is the upcoming spaniel tests, but the other is, well, it's a blast! I hate to admit it, but it's really a lot more fun than the retriever tests are.


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## boomers_dawn

Glad Tito's leg is better. 

Funny about the upland being more fun. More action!

Anyhooo -- dog skool teecher instructs us no big intense training the day before a test. So I just set up the winger and was going to pop off some easy singles for Gladys. Only problem is, she broke. So I let her watch me pick up the dokken and that was it for the night. She's sulking now, but in some ways that may have been good, because that happened right before our SH tests and had a lasting impression.

I loaded up the winger for Dee Dee. She's 8 months now and seems to be starting to get marking! Her first bumper hit the side of the house (ooops!) and bounced off the porch into the hosta garden. The little midget had the wherewithall to go in the hosta jungle and find it!

Next, the bumper went behind some bushes, and she had the wherewithall to go back there and find that one too. I was pleasantly surprised. 

The lightbulb is on that something fun happens by coming to heel and sitting, then coming back to heel and delivering nicely!

With my 2 girls, it might seem like they aren't getting something for ages, then the lightbulb seems to come on in spurts. I was starting to think Dee Dee might be a dud, which would be ok, but now I'm starting to see how she learns in spurts, just as Gladys did/does. Cool.


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## hotel4dogs

of course, no sooner did I post that Tito is 100% than he came limping over to me just now....

The only thing that's a bit of a concern is that his last Lyme test (almost 4 weeks ago) was "low positive". We are retesting on Tuesday. I hope the limping is not a symptom of Lyme, hope that it's just from field training.


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## MillionsofPeaches

oh gosh, I certainly hope this is just a sore paw or something. Poor Tito! Hang in there


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## Claudia M

poor Tito! Glad you are re-testing!


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## hotel4dogs

<<sigh>>
I just canceled his agility lesson for Wednesday and his field lesson for Thursday this coming week.
When he's just walking, he doesn't limp. But if he breaks into a trot or faster, he's limping quite a bit.


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## gdgli

I hope everything is OK with Tito.


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## sterregold

hotel4dogs said:


> We are having lots of things falling apart recently. Mea culpa, we haven't been training. And now with the spaniel tests, Dan and I are in agreement not to put too much *control* on him for now. Especially with the "hunt dead", which involves him needing to go hunt up a bird on his own on what looks like a blind. It may be a bit confusing for now, but it will be okay in the long run.
> Saw a terrible erosion in his water blinds, which we haven't run in ages, where he apparently thought that "over" meant stop, look at me, and then continue on in the same direction you were originally heading. THAT's what we were planning to work on, and the stupid duck just didn't fit into that plan!
> We even went back to the swim-by pond for a quick refresher course in what an "over" is in the water.
> One nice thing about training at a hunt club is that the opportunities for live birds are endless, and when (if?) we get to the stage that we want to run a blind past a swimming duck, it's easy enough to re-create. But I can't set him up for something that I know is going to be ugly, and counter-productive to what I'm trying to accomplish that day. If he won't take a decent over without a live duck swimming around him, no point in trying it with one.
> Philosophically, Dan doesn't worry too much about an "over" in the water, as long as he will take an angle back and a nice literal cast. He says if you need to use an "over", chances are you've let him get so far off the line you aren't going to be passing anyway. But it is a nice tool to have, just in case you do someday need to use it.
> The other problem that we are having is the confusion of having Dan handle him sometimes, and sometimes he's in the field throwing a mark or doing a bird boy blind. It's a minor thing, but Tito does tend to have one eye on Dan which can cause some problems. If it's anyone but Dan, it's not an issue.
> So many things to work through.
> My main focus right now is upland, for a couple of reasons. One is the upcoming spaniel tests, but the other is, well, it's a blast! I hate to admit it, but it's really a lot more fun than the retriever tests are.


I see where you are at. I think that is probably why, if I intended on building a Master level dog, I would not do the spaniel tests until my dog was solid at the Master level work--it is undermining the other work you have put in up to this point. I run HRC as well, and while Bonnie could go out and do an upland test, we have not, as I saw how much doing all the upland hunting with Winter before he was super solid on blinds made it more difficult to get him super solid on blinds!! (No spaniel crossover for us yet in CKC, and I could do it with Breeze in AKC, but it just doesn't quite seem worth the effort of travelling to do it!)


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## hollyk

sterregold said:


> I see where you are at. I think that is probably why, if I intended on building a Master level dog, I would not do the spaniel tests until my dog was solid at the Master level work--it is undermining the other work you have put in up to this point. I run HRC as well, and while Bonnie could go out and do an upland test, we have not, as I saw how much doing all the upland hunting with Winter before he was super solid on blinds made it more difficult to get him super solid on blinds!! (No spaniel crossover for us yet in CKC, and I could do it with Breeze in AKC, but it just doesn't quite seem worth the effort of travelling to do it!)


I have been discourage to run UKC Upland until after we have completed Finished and Master for the same reasons.


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## hotel4dogs

Shelly, you hunt over your dogs, don't you? Do you see it as any different from Spaniel tests? They are so very similar, it seems like the normal "touch up" reminders after hunting season would be all that's required after Spaniel tests.


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## gdgli

hotel4dogs said:


> Shelly, you hunt over your dogs, don't you? Do you see it as any different from Spaniel tests? They are so very similar, it seems like the normal "touch up" reminders after hunting season would be all that's required after Spaniel tests.


You have conflicting behaviors IMO. That is if you are doing AKC Field Trials and AKC hunt tests.


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## hotel4dogs

Ya lost me George...we are doing AKC Spaniel (upland) tests and AKC Retriever tests. 
The spaniel tests are very similar to an extremely short version of pheasant hunting.

I am toying with the idea of retiring Tito from field. Not sure yet what I will do. 
For one thing, it's just not possible to pursue a MH when training 3 hours total a month. It's not fair to the dog, and makes me feel guilty.
For another thing, and maybe this is just how I'm feeling right now because he's still limping, but the only times Tito has been to the vet (other than one incident of swallowing something) have had to do with field. There was a very nasty puncture wound. There was the grass seed or whatever caught on his vocal cord, which had to be removed twice. Then there was pneumonia, which was probably related to the crap he swims in and the fact that he's missing a small part of one vocal cord now. He's been low positive for 3 different TBDs, and high positive for Lyme. We're waiting to re-do a low positive Lyme right now. And he's limping quite badly, still, so I'm not sure what this latest injury is about but I do know it happened at Dan's on Thursday.
So I am questioning whether it is really worth it. Sure, he loves it, but at what expense to his health and well-being?
Lots to think about.




gdgli said:


> You have conflicting behaviors IMO. That is if you are doing AKC Field Trials and AKC hunt tests.


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## Claudia M

Only you, Tito and time can tell. I am of the opinion that breaks are necessary and at three hours a month while he is also doing other activities is quite sufficient to keep his prey instinct and love for the field going. So what if it will take several years to get the MH? Or not get it at all. The memories and him being happy with what he does is IMHO the most important. 
I know what you mean about the injuries and the exposure: I have been using the tuff-paws on Rose and now Darcy weekly to improve them, I have been spraying the ultrashield on them every time we went in the field and then spent hours combing and rubbing them to make sure there was no tick on them. Where ever I go I carry the EMT gel in my pocket. I have searched the entire area for a clean pond where to let them swim and train and where I could swim with them. And then I comb and dry paranoid about hot spots. And none of them are even close to Tito's accomplishments. Maybe I am babying them too much!


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## gdgli

hotel4dogs

I had been to a Field Trial just prior to getting Buffy. I was talking to a Field Trialer who said, and I quote, "One thing I hate to see is a dog running to his mark with his nose to the ground." Even though use of nose is supposed to be important those who trial do not really want to see a dog using it like a spaniel uses it. Granted, I haven't been to a spaniel trial or hunt test to see what the dogs are doing but I do own a Springer and have hunted over another half dozen Springers. These dogs tend to run to their marks and before they reach them get their nose to the ground and will zig zag to the bird. Except on the water.

If I were a trialer I would think twice about using my dog like a Spaniel for hunting until I was done with his trial career. This attitude can also be found in Hunt Testers. I know someone who sat on the Board of the Master National Retriever Club. He will not hunt his dog and advises others not to hunt their dogs either.

That is where my comment on conflicting behaviors comes from. The quartering work is exactly what you don't want your dog to do in a retriever FT/HT. I absolutely love how a field bred Spaniel works. I would hate to have to train my retriever away from Spaniel behavior just to get ready for a FT/HT. I am all for having fun with the dog but if you are going to continue with AKC Hunt Tests, MH, you might be concerned about what may be conflicting behaviors.



Maybe I need to see a Spaniel FT/HT. None are close by but I could make a little trip to see one. 

I am curious as to how your pro feels. I am also curious as to how the trialers on this forum feel.

Reminder, I am really expressing an opinion.


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## K9-Design

Barb I hear ya with the field/health issues. I will also say -- as the dog ages, it only gets worse. I'm a realist, and if you want to pursue training/testing for MH, it is going to take a lot more time commitment, and I wouldn't let Tito get any older to do it. 
I have not had flukey stuff happen in the field (i.e. the foxtail/vocal cord thing, or pneumonia) but I have battled soft tissue injuries with Fisher, some have taken 6-12 months to completely heal. Yes sometimes a break is GREAT for training, but if you want to succeed at Master you have to spend months committed to it at a stretch, and hope and pray you don't bump into injuries. 

My training partner Kristin, she got a CDX, JH and TD on her first girl with only practicing at class/training session once a week. When she got to SH/MH, that all changed and she really learned what training a dog was all about!!

Maybe you could change your goal to being the first Golden with a Spaniel MH title? Obviously you are close to mastering the concepts there. I think that would be really cool


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## Alaska7133

Sorry Barb to hear your dilemma. I really have no advise and only hope things improve for Tito. 

Lucy is in heat now for a week. Of course she went into heat while I was down in the states. My husband is only used to horses in season not dogs. She is the first female dog we've ever had go into heat. Normally we spay young and it's not an issue. So training is limited to leashwork. Cody has been running her on a flexi leash on the mountain bike. He get her out regularly for 8 to 10 miles and sometimes 20 miles. She's a little rocket!

Since Lucy is out of commission I've been working with Reilly more. Yesterday on the spur of the moment we did a beginner novice fun match. He came in first place in that class. He's such a great guy.

We have not bird hunted this fall at all. Looking forward to getting the crew out soon.


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## hotel4dogs

Just to clarify, we don't run field trials, nor will we ever. Just hunt tests. The set of expectations is totally different.
The spaniel tests are very similar to hunting over your dog. Dan is all for it, he says it will "make him a better dog in the long run". Most of Dan's clients' dogs, and his own dogs, are active hunting dogs who run hunt tests. His dogs run, and pass, the Grand so I don't think it has caused them any problems. His dogs are also used for guide dogs for hunting at the hunt club he manages. Dan feels that a good dog, in the hands of a good trainer, can run AKC, HRC, upland, and actually hunt. 
I do know a lot of people say not to hunt your dogs if you do hunt tests. But there are many more who laugh at that. Tito is my first dog doing this, so I don't know the answer. I may look back later and regret having run the spaniel tests. But one reason I decided to is it didn't involve learning any new behaviors, it is truly like just going out hunting!
Dan just says to "let him get loose" and then we will tighten it up after the next set of spaniel tests. Especially since, at this point, it's rather uncertain whether or not we will pursue the MH title.
Tito seems to clearly understand the difference between "bird out there, hunt 'em up" and "where's your mark?". Honestly I can't imagine him quartering out to a mark. Once he gets to the AOF if he can't find the mark he may quarter a bit, using the wind, but he's always done that. Dan calls it "intelligent hunting". 
The only place I do have a concern is on the "hunt dead" and the blinds. I'm trying to resolve that in my own mind, but we haven't passed and gotten to that point yet! My current plan is to run it like a retriever blind. Everyone I've talked to (spaniel people) say there will be no problem with that.
GDGLI, if you do go watch a spaniel test I hope there is a retriever running it. We are *supposed to be* judged by a different set of rules, and 3 of the 4 judges when we ran had no problem at all with the way my boy hunts. He does NOT quarter like a spaniel, never will, and I don't plan to teach him to. He hunts like a golden!
Anney, Tito is already 6-1/2 and that's in the back of my mind, too. He's considered a SENIOR in 6 months! The injuries/illnesses worry me, and more so as he is aging. But on the flip side of it, he loves it. So I truly don't know what to do.
Tito never trained at home, and he went all the way thru UDX and MXP/MJP just training once a week at the kennel club. The JH didn't require much, the SH quite a bit more, but the MH is a whole different ballgame. I, too, am just learning now what it means to actually have to train a dog.
I'm rambling. I'm not sure what to do.


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## sterregold

hotel4dogs said:


> Shelly, you hunt over your dogs, don't you? Do you see it as any different from Spaniel tests? They are so very similar, it seems like the normal "touch up" reminders after hunting season would be all that's required after Spaniel tests.


Yes, I do. But my dog I had the most difficulty getting solid on blinds was the one I had done the most early upland work with!! Winter was such a natural at pheasant hunting that we did a lot of it and it translated into his being "don't need your help! Bug off, mom!" when we started working blinds in earnest. Because of that, his blinds, in particular his water blinds, were never going to be strong enough for Master work. 

As a direct result of that I decided not to do heavy upland work with Breeze until she was quite solid on blind work, and I started her on upland hunting later in her field career. And her strength on blinds has served us very well in duck hunting, as she can recover unmarked birds that I could never handle Winter to the AOF to hunt up--I can get her to where she needs to be and can do a hunt dead with her when she gets to the area, and because of all of the foundation work we did, know that it won't take much to rein that control back in. We do have upland elements in both our SH and MH tests, so we do have to teach it and cultivate it, I just find it is easier to teach it after the other skills have been thoroughly taught--they pick it up easily, but it can conflict with the other skills if they are not firmly entrenched, so now I wait to add it.

I hear you on the injury thing--it is a tough sport in a tough natural environment. Breeze has had reactions to nasty water in tests, Winter cut a pad on glass at a pond, Bonnie is right now recovering from a nasty bunch of ant bites, but our worst (and most expensive) one ever happened in real hunting, Winter had his nose chomped by a muskrat and ended up at the Emerg vet getting a tube in his nose to hold the nostril shape in place and stitches inside and out.


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## hotel4dogs

I can see the independence issue, in some dogs, on blinds if they've been doing a fair amount of upland hunting. Tito is one of those. We will have to crack down on him big time before he's ready to run any more retriever tests. 
But he's always been a very, very nice handling dog so I'm guardedly optimistic that it will come back fairly easily. If not, well, all the more reason not to run MH!
I am not saying we won't. Not saying we will. I guess the thing to do is to just continue to train with Dan when we can, and enjoy the experience. If it gets us ready for MH, great. If not, so be it.
But the injury thing....we have a bunch of agility trials coming up starting next weekend. I hope he's 100% by then.


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## Claudia M

Barb, I have so much faith in you and Tito; you in not over confusing or over working him and Tito in doing what he loves and pleases you at the same time. 
He is indeed one of a kind! 

We have taken Rose outside first this afternoon and worked her on longer retrieves singles and doubles. She did excellent! For some reason she is tired but she did have three rounds of Frisbees before that.

We just got back inside with Darcy, we are still on singles only and just increasing the difficulty of the single marks. She again did good; she still tried to veer to the thrower but I was running away from her backwards and screaming my head off "Come here Darcy, bring it here". She does not come to a heel so I have to catch it as she brings it and say leave it as she lets go. She does better with DH as far as sitting and delivering but she slows down as she approaches him. 
As I type this they are both laying on my bed, dead tired, maybe I just think they are smiling as I am but it sure looks like they are smiling!


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## hotel4dogs

poor Tito keeps going out on the patio and looking forlornly at his chuck-it and tennis ball.


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## Claudia M

I need to clarify - three rounds means three times outside and each time about 6 to 10 throws of Frisbee all over the yard. Catching, running and bringing it back to a heel. 
We just went back out for a potty break and both ran straight in the back looking for the Frisbee. 
Sort of like Tito, no matter how tired and what they did they still want more! Except Tito needs to rest and have Mr. Vet run some tests to make sure everything is alright. Have you found any ticks on him at all?


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## hollyk

:uhoh:


hotel4dogs said:


> Just to clarify, we don't run field trials, nor will we ever. Just hunt tests. The set of expectations is totally different.
> The spaniel tests are very similar to hunting over your dog. Dan is all for it, he says it will "make him a better dog in the long run". Most of Dan's clients' dogs, and his own dogs, are active hunting dogs who run hunt tests. His dogs run, and pass, the Grand so I don't think it has caused them any problems. His dogs are also used for guide dogs for hunting at the hunt club he manages. Dan feels that a good dog, in the hands of a good trainer, can run AKC, HRC, upland, and actually hunt.


A good trainer, there is the reason I'm discouraged from running Upland. Winter is my very first dog and here we are training for Master. I do train with a Pro but that controller is in my hand 100% of the time. I'm constantly working on improving my handling skills as well as training her. We all know a bad handling decision can make or break a test. I hope to make a run at MH next spring so for us we will keep our feet firmly planted on the path. 

But Barb, I can understand where you are coming from. No, you can't get to MH only training once a week no matter how good your dog is. So why not go for that Upland title, from the sounds of it you were very close to passing last time.


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## hotel4dogs

I haven't found any ticks on him, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. He was low level Lyme positive 4 weeks ago, we are re-testing tomorrow. It's possible the limping is from Lyme, but I suspect an injury since I know exactly when he started to limp. Generally with the TBDs there's no "event" that sets it off, they just start to limp. Also the classic Lyme limp moves from limb to limb. 
He is bored and hating the limited activity. I let him walk around the yard, I believe in using the injured limb a little, but I can't let him trot or run.


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## hotel4dogs

Yes, he was doing really well until he did what Dan's wife laughingly calls the "golden retriever 3 mile dash". 
She's had goldens her whole life.



hollyk said:


> :uhoh:
> A good trainer, there is the reason I'm discouraged from running Upland. Winter is my very first dog and here we are training for Master. I do train with a Pro but that controller is in my hand 100% of the time. I'm constantly working on improving my handling skills as well as training her. We all know a bad handling decision can make or break a test. I hope to make a run at MH next spring so for us we will keep our feet firmly planted on the path.
> 
> But Barb, I can understand where you are coming from. No, you can't get to MH only training once a week no matter how good your dog is. So why not go for that Upland title, from the sounds of it you were very close to passing last time.


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## gdgli

I just wanted to post a picture of Buffy taken at a Pat Nolan Seminar.


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## MillionsofPeaches

oh wow that water photo is just fantastic!


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## Alaska7133

She's a very pretty girl!

Pat Nolan is one of my favorites. I wish he would come up here in do seminars. If you watch his videos he just has a way of getting a dog to do anything without any effort on his part. He's kind of magical!


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## hotel4dogs

Great photos, I really like the one of her in the water! Thanks for sharing them.


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## boomers_dawn

Buffy looks like furry golden alligator  
that was meant as a compliment btw.


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## gdgli

Pat Nolan gave an excellent seminar. I traveled to NJ to get to it. It's too bad my own club has no interest in doing something like this. I would love to get Evan up here.

It's really nice to go to a seminar like this.


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## gdgli

MillionsofPeaches said:


> oh wow that water photo is just fantastic!


I am very fortunate that she is an excellent water dog.


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## Claudia M

Buffy is a gorgeous girl!


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## Claudia M

well, I am a bit worried. After class this evening we went out for potty in the dark. I see Rose smelling something and realize it is dead bird. I say leave it, walk further away, put them in a sit/stay and go get the dust pan. Darcy breaks it and comes after me Rose runs after Darcy takes the bird in the mouth with the intention to eat it. I scream leave it and she does. 
The thing is that she would have eaten it. I should have known that Darcy does not have a strong sit/stay yet and that she may "convince" Rose to disobey as well.
Also I could not correct her trying to eat the bird because she left it. So I had to praise her for leaving it. This whole training is so confusing!


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## MillionsofPeaches

oh the joys of the wildlife around us! LOL, never a week goes by without pulling a dead squirrel, mole, bunny, bird whatever out of their mouths! LOL!


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## hotel4dogs

A good training opportunity!
Stay means stay means stay, regardless of what is going on around you. It doesn't mean stay unless *another dog* gets up. That's where the correction comes in. That would have worried me more than her thinking about eating the bird.
As far as eating the bird, I wouldn't be too worried about it from a training point of view. As long as it wasn't a duck or pheasant, lol. Small birds are pretty tempting to some dogs. How many has she encountered before? When you told her to leave it, she did. Hopefully she will remember that next time and not try to munch on it.




Claudia M said:


> well, I am a bit worried. After class this evening we went out for potty in the dark. I see Rose smelling something and realize it is dead bird. I say leave it, walk further away, put them in a sit/stay and go get the dust pan. Darcy breaks it and comes after me Rose runs after Darcy takes the bird in the mouth with the intention to eat it. I scream leave it and she does.
> The thing is that she would have eaten it. I should have known that Darcy does not have a strong sit/stay yet and that she may "convince" Rose to disobey as well.
> Also I could not correct her trying to eat the bird because she left it. So I had to praise her for leaving it. This whole training is so confusing!


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## gdgli

Don't worry, Claudia. Every dog will eat a bird. In fact the old timers said that a dog's training was not complete until it had eaten a bird.


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## Claudia M

The only positive was that even though I took them away from the bird she ran straight to it; she knew exactly the spot where she left it the first time I told her to leave it. LOL if she did not run to it I am not sure I would have found it to pick it up. 

Yes, Shelby and the outdoor cat who enjoys finding birds and bringing them close to our house does not help at all! I probably shouldn't have scolded her for bringing them in front of the door - now she leaves them in the grass close to the house. 

Yes Barb, Stay means Stay and Leave it means Leave it. She was not supposed to go back to it after the first time I said leave it. She disobeyed twice and could not correct because I did not catch it on time and had to praise the last time she listened. 

Haha George, I hope not! It was a little tiny thing - it would have probably passed thru bones and feathers together. Except I would have spent the entire night trying to make her to regurgitate it.


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## K9-Design

Haha yep it took Fisher a few years to get up the nerve but last year he stole a duck off the drying rack and ate the ass half of it HAHAHAHAHAHA go fishie


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## Alaska7133

Lucy got 2 in one week. She got her first one at 9 weeks old. Birds hit the window of our house and fall to the ground. Sometimes dead, sometimes just stunned. Lucy pounces quick! The last 2, I called her to heal and she gave them up nicely, one still alive but pretty mangled. I've stopped taking her to pet stores, the birds in the cages are pure torture for her. She doesn't have any interest in squirrels or any other varmints. My boys have no interest.


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## hotel4dogs

oh my, the people at Petco and Petsmart cringe when they see us coming. Tito just harrasses the "critters" and birds shamelessly!


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## hotel4dogs

This is so frustrating, for both me and Tito.
He is still very slightly limping when he trots. Fine when walking or running, but if I watch very very carefully I do see it a little on the trotting.
We have hunt tests coming up in a couple of weeks. I really really need to do at least a little training, but it seems that the prudent thing to do is keep him more or less quiet until the limp is completely gone.
By quiet, I just mean no agility and no training. I am letting him out in the yard, but of course no ball playing etc. Just letting him go out and do whatever he wants to. 
So so frustrating.


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## MillionsofPeaches

oh no, could it be a pinched nerve or something? I know a lot of my friends take their dogs to chiropractors. I wonder if that would help him?


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## hotel4dogs

Thanks, I'm pretty sure it's a soft tissue injury. He did something a week ago at Dan's, on our first series he came up holding his leg up. It's only been 8 or 9 days, which isn't all that long for a sprain or strain. It's just very frustrating. 



MillionsofPeaches said:


> oh no, could it be a pinched nerve or something? I know a lot of my friends take their dogs to chiropractors. I wonder if that would help him?


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## Claudia M

we had a good weekend at the cabin. Did not go swimming as it was in the 40s. We worked both Rose and Darcy on singles and doubles. Darcy still wants to bring the bumper to the thrower. Rose did excellent. In total she ran about 700 yards. She cheated on one by coming back thru the mowed area instead of the tall grass but corrected that with the last throw. After the first session with Rose I forgot the camera on and now I cannot upload to FB. We went then for a hike. We will try to work the fields which are finally cur down in October with long retrieves and start Rose on short blinds.


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## gdgli

Claudia

That does look beautiful!


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## hollyk

Claudia,
WOW!


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## Alaska7133

Went ptarmigan hunting today. Didn't see any except some old poop. All there were was some marmots around to tease the dogs. So we goofed off and had fun with the dogs. The snow line has moved up higher so we didn't have to trudge through the snow. But another week or so and it will be different. The tundra is a ever changing place.


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## Claudia M

Wow Stacey! That looks amazing! I just love that picture.

Thanks George & Holly! The girls were dead tired after the hike. Uphill, downhill, up again. Rose had to catch every single deer trail. Her favorite dessert is of course deer poop. 

Once the fields are cut it makes a great space for training. Going to start using the hill and practice some of the marking drills from Spencer's book. Handler at the top of the hill and thrower at the bottom, shortening the throws and see if she runs past them.


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## Claudia M

I completely forgot - this is what happens lately when there is shooting outside. They are both watching out the window! Seems like Darcy is over her gun shot fear!


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## Alaska7133

Wonderful photos! Looks like you have some very nice places to run your dogs. I wish we had nice places like that!


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## Claudia M

Alaska7133 said:


> Wonderful photos! Looks like you have some very nice places to run your dogs. I wish we had nice places like that!


Unfortunately it is only from late September until April/May. Then you have to take out the hunting season from it and the winter snow. You also have to be on your toes as deer, bears, foxes and coyotes seem to lurk around. Not to mention the ticks and snakes...etc. 

But I love the mountain and will take it over the beach any day and time!


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## hotel4dogs

These photos are making me want to burst into song...
The hills are alive
With the sound of muuuuuuuuu sic.....


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## Claudia M

hotel4dogs said:


> These photos are making me want to burst into song...
> The hills are alive
> With the sound of muuuuuuuuu sic.....


hahahaah -we are missing the von Trapp castle and a couple other things! If I start hiking and singing that song I will have you to blame, Barb!!!


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## hotel4dogs

<<sigh>>
Just made a vet appointment for Wednesday for Tito. He's still limping. 
I suspect we are going to be making a donation to the agility club this weekend (3 days of trials), as they don't refund even for illness or injury.


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## Alaska7133

Barb,
Darn! Going to the vet and hoping they find something really is hard. Not knowing exactly what's wrong especially with soft tissue is tough. With athletic dogs that aren't couch potatoes they just don't want to stay home do they!


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## Claudia M

So sorry Barb - please keep us posted on what the vet says.


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## Claudia M

we had a good day in class today. I have been looking up (you tube mostly) on how to train hand signals. Trainer was a bit confused today when I asked. One lady is teaching her Vizsla dog on how to go around an object from the right and from the left. But how would you teach the dog to take a straight line form the distance to the right or to the left. Spencer talks about them in his blind retrieve book but does not say how to actually teach it (maybe I just did not get far enough).


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## hotel4dogs

Claudia, not sure what you mean by take a straight line from the distance to the right or left?


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## MillionsofPeaches

are you talking about field or basic obedience?


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## Claudia M

Spencer talks about it as obedience training but the way that the hand signals were initially introduced in blind retrieving were copied from the herding dogs.

Barb, what I mean is the dog is let's say 75 yards from you looking for the dead-bird. You whistle one time, dog is to turn/sit and look at you for "help" you move your right arm straight for him to go to the right and look for it and then left arm up for over.


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## hotel4dogs

Either I'm really confused, or we cast completely differently. Chances are I'm confused.
The whistle stops him, he looks at me.
My arm now goes exactly where I want him to go (although mirror image, as he's facing me).
So if I want him to go to straight to my left(over), my left arm goes straight out to my left side, think of it as pointing to the left. 
If I want him to go straight to the right (over), my right arm goes straight out to my right side, pointing to the right. 
If I want him to go back 45 degrees to my left (angle back), my left arm comes up halfway between shoulder height and straight above my head, at a 45 degree angle. Same thing for angle back to the right, only with right arm.
If I want him to turn to the left and head straight back, my left arm goes up straight in the air (back). If I want him to turn right and head straight back, my right arm goes up straight in the air (back). 
I rarely use an "over" or a "back" cast. Almost everything is a literal cast, that is, various angles that tell him exactly where I want him to go. If I need to use an "over", chances are I've let him get too far off the line before I stopped him. With "back", why would I stop him if he's heading the right way, just to re-send him in exactly that same direction? Pretty much the only time I use "back" is if there's something that I know is going to cause him a problem, I might stop him, have him focus on me, and then give him a "back" command to make sure he knows he is not to get off line, he is to continue straight back. But that would be unusual.


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## Claudia M

Barb, I am confused myself. I have started this morning small by throwing the Frisbee to the right with my right hand and introduced the word right, same with he left arm and saying left, in front of me with my arm up and sent her with back. 

In obedience we started with "go" by sending the dog to an object away from you and the dog is to turn around facing you and sit next to the object.


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## Tatnall

hotel4dogs said:


> Pretty much the only time I use "back" is if there's something that I know is going to cause him a problem, I might stop him, have him focus on me, and then give him a "back" command to make sure he knows he is not to get off line, he is to continue straight back. But that would be unusual.


90% of my casts are straight backs or perhaps a straight back with a microstep for a little more. I want the dog to go left or right and then go straight from there, not dig back to the original line. That would get another whistle and a correction if it happened again. About the only time I give an angle back is if the dog takes too much, but hopefully I stop him quick enough that we don't get that far off line.

If I get in the situation where I need pretty much a straight back or want to minimize the direction change, I will go vocal. If I really need straight (primarily if I blew the whistle just as the dog corrected or he gave me a loopy sit or a sit in different direction than usual) I often give a no hands back.

That's just how we roll, though.

However, in a trial, getting off the point is a different story--most likely I would give 'too much' cast to avoid the old "'over' to the bird, 'back'to the truck" saw.


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## MillionsofPeaches

wow, I'm super confused!!! ha ha!! Right now we are sending the dog on back. If it follows a the straight line then cool beans. If not whistle and cast over or back with with a left of right. There aren't too many commands from what I've observed but I'm so new at all this that I'm probably way off.


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## Tatnall

MillionsofPeaches said:


> There aren't too many commands from what I've observed but I'm so new at all this that I'm probably way off.


I should have clarified somewhat--my dogs are running AA level stuff, so being in the position where the literal cast would be an angle back likely means you are not coming back. The things like the straight up back with a microstep to get a little more direction change or the vocal cast to get a little less are advanced stuff.

When all is said and done, here are not too many commands. Basically, there is stop, come and go--which starts as back and then teach overs then angle backs and then the more subtle stuff.

The key is that it is a progression of relatively small steps that build upon what the dog already knows. You start with force fetch so then simple casting is a matter of tossing a bumper to the dog's right or left and commanding "fetch" which it already knows. When it has it down prettywell on one side go to the other, go to both and add a back pile, using the command it knows and a rope to keep it from doing the wrong thing. Then as you move on to pile work you chain the fetch to the back and to the over (although the command isn't a big deal as the dog is going on the hand signal basically). Then move on to T work, swim by, pattern blinds and then simple cold blinds. It sounds like a lot but you are just slightly adding more to what you have already taught at each step.


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## MillionsofPeaches

thank you! This is exactly what I'm doing. Today was fetch (back) to the pile and sit on whistle coming back. Friday was simple cast backs and overs on very short distances. Depends what my trainer wants to work on that day. But at least I know what you are talking about :doh: and that is a big start! LOL





Tatnall said:


> I should have clarified somewhat--my dogs are running AA level stuff, so being in the position where the literal cast would be an angle back likely means you are not coming back. The things like the straight up back with a microstep to get a little more direction change or the vocal cast to get a little less are advanced stuff.
> 
> When all is said and done, here are not too many commands. Basically, there is stop, come and go--which starts as back and then teach overs then angle backs and then the more subtle stuff.
> 
> The key is that it is a progression of relatively small steps that build upon what the dog already knows. You start with force fetch so then simple casting is a matter of tossing a bumper to the dog's right or left and commanding "fetch" which it already knows. When it has it down prettywell on one side go to the other, go to both and add a back pile, using the command it knows and a rope to keep it from doing the wrong thing. Then as you move on to pile work you chain the fetch to the back and to the over (although the command isn't a big deal as the dog is going on the hand signal basically). Then move on to T work, swim by, pattern blinds and then simple cold blinds. It sounds like a lot but you are just slightly adding more to what you have already taught at each step.


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## gdgli

Today I had a first. During training I had to break up a dog fight. One dog broke loose and ran out to grab another dog's bumper from his mouth. They hit, growling, then biting followed by one dog gripping the other by the throat. My 73 year old friend fell to the ground while pulling the rear legs of one dog while I pulled the rear legs of another dog.

I really don't need this kind of excitement.


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## MillionsofPeaches

oh my gosh how horrible! I bet the adrenaline was rushing. wow.


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## hotel4dogs

scary stuff George!! At least you are one of very few people who actually knows HOW to break up a dog fight without getting mauled in the process.


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## hotel4dogs

What you are doing is LIGHT YEARS from what we are doing  .



Tatnall said:


> I should have clarified somewhat--my dogs are running AA level stuff, so being in the position where the literal cast would be an angle back likely means you are not coming back. The things like the straight up back with a microstep to get a little more direction change or the vocal cast to get a little less are advanced stuff.
> 
> .


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## K9-Design

Claudia M said:


> Barb, I am confused myself. I have started this morning small by throwing the Frisbee to the right with my right hand and introduced the word right, same with he left arm and saying left, in front of me with my arm up and sent her with back.
> 
> In obedience we started with "go" by sending the dog to an object away from you and the dog is to turn around facing you and sit next to the object.



Hmmm. I think you're trying to re-invent the wheel. Do yourself a favor and buy either Evan Graham's transition book, the Mike Lardy articles, or Rick Stawski's videos. This is field training 101 and they handle it in detail.


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