# JPS surgery after PENN-Hip results



## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Just wondering was there a purpose of doing penn hip on him at 16 weeks? Was he having HD symptoms?

Frog laying/sitting is very common and in no way does it suggest good or bad hips.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Is he doing well after his surgery?


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## Pooklook (Mar 10, 2014)

hi Alaska7133, thank you he did very well (only one week recovery -with a hobble and the cone) and he probably don't even remember any of it now 









hi kfayard, my previous kid, Pooklook (over the rainbow now) had joint problems later on and it was a race to alleviate or slow down his condition while we would have loved a chance to prevent it to begin with, so we decided to screen Polar (not for any particular reasons other than ..."better safe than sorry")
Glad to hear that the froggy sitting is nothing to be concerned about, thanks!

by the way, what beautiful dogs both of you have!


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## Pooklook (Mar 10, 2014)

I realize now thanks to the feedback from another concurrent related thread in this forum that many here oppose this whole approach and (if I understand correctly) think of it as not-needed or ineffective. 
What I noticed is that none of the input has come from someone who has actually done this for their puppy. Am I the only one really? 
What I've read so far are the opinions of people who say it is not necessary because the puppy (too young to even be screened) grew to be HD free without the need for such screening or corrective measures (which I'm happy for them btw).
But what about the puppies who have gotten screened early on (for whatever reason) and upon such warranted results undergo corrective/preventative treatments (such as JPS in my case)? I would love to hear those stories and relate/compare notes.

***Just to be clear: not at all trying to promote or suggest any of this stuff, (as you know I've gone past the should I? or shouldn't I go for it phase) just would like to hear the anecdotes from people who've done this before (...if anybody, it's beginning to fee kind of lonely now)***


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I have stated before that I would need to see some really bad hips! X-ray plus penn hips in order to do it.

If one of my puppy buyers did this surgery without me knowing, I would be very upset!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

IMO if the dog was not symptomatic, I would not even consider surgery. And I know as a vet that many of the OFA good hips we do exhibit joint laxity, but that laxity does not correlate with DJD later in life. I think many Goldens have loose hips even with passing OFA's and remain sound until they die. I have seen dogs with horrible rads have no issues and ok rads and the dogs have terrible hip pain.


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## Pooklook (Mar 10, 2014)

kfayard said:


> I have stated before that I would need to see some really bad hips! X-ray plus penn hips in order to do it. If one of my puppy buyers did this surgery without me knowing, I would be very upset!


I can tell you are a dedicated and involved breeder by how passionate you are about it.
Yup, agreed, as you may have read in the other thread, Polar's x-rays + PENN-Hip score was pretty bad


Pooklook said:


> My PolarBear's x-ray showed he had a very high DI on both hips (one of them almost dislocated at a .71 DI)


I hope none of your buyers have upset you by doing it without consulting you, but has any of your buyers asked you about it and brought you the Pehh hip x-rays before seeking your counsel?
In your years as a breeder, have you known anybody who's done it (for the right reasons -as you say, when really bad hips! X-ray plus penn hips)?
I would love to hear about their stories...


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## Pooklook (Mar 10, 2014)

Sally's Mom said:


> I have seen dogs with horrible rads have no issues and ok rads and the dogs have terrible hip pain.


...that's very encouraging and yet very discouraging at the same time 

thanks sally's mom, as a vet have you ever had a case such as mine, or even gotten a client's dog who's had the JPS done by the time they come to you? if you have can you tell me about it (if you have but is confidential I'll understand)?


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Pooklook said:


> I can tell you are a dedicated and involved breeder by how passionate you are about it.
> Yup, agreed, as you may have read in the other thread, Polar's x-rays + PENN-Hip score was pretty bad
> I hope none of your buyers have upset you by doing it without consulting you, but has any of your buyers asked you about it and brought you the Pehh hip x-rays before seeking your counsel?
> In your years as a breeder, have you known anybody who's done it (for the right reasons -as you say, when really bad hips! X-ray plus penn hips)?
> ...


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I have known someone that the vet told the owner the puppy had elbow dysplasia and ended up doing extensive surgery on the puppy. The breeder got access to the X-rays the vet did and sent them to ofa (board certified orthopedist) and guess what?

They came back normal. So, I am very weary about what some vets push.


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## ellsworthv (May 15, 2014)

I posted about the "possibly hip problems" and thats one of my problems with the surgery. They said when doing the X-rays they have seen dogs with horrible hips and you would think would need surgery but they are running around like nothing is wrong and then they see hips that look good and they are in horrible pain.


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## Pooklook (Mar 10, 2014)

kfayard said:


> I have know someone that the vet told the owner the puppy had elbow dysplasia and ended up doing extensive surgery on the puppy. The breeder got access to the X-rays the vet did and sent them to ofa (board certified orthopedist) and guess what?
> 
> They came back normal. So, I am very weary about what some vets push.


That's horrible

Choose your vet wisely... right?:doh:


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Pooklook,
I have a boy that I noticed problems at 4 months. He was very lame on his right front leg after a long walk. I consulted with his breeder who convinced me nothing was wrong and he was just a puppy. Fast forward to age 4 and I had a dog who had serious problems. So I had him xrayed by my vet and sent them to a radiologist in the states (we have none in AK). The radiologist said mild hips & severe elbows. Too much damage to elbows for surgery according to the radiologist. Now had I stayed on his problem, I should have had his elbow fixed when it was a problem at age 4 months. He was young and would have recovered quicker. I should have been more diligent and regret the pain he has been through. He is on acupuncture and tramadol when necessary. Adequan injections too. I should not have listened to his breeder. I should have done the surgery then and his life would be easier. He will always limp on his right front leg. In fact when he sits, he always holds his right front leg out at an angle and doesn't put an weight on it. He is only 6.

Do what you think is right for your dog. I wish I had back when I could have. So don't second guess yourself, it's done and hopefully it will make a difference for your dog long term.


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## Pooklook (Mar 10, 2014)

ellsworthv said:


> I posted about the "possibly hip problems" and thats one of my problems with the surgery. They said when doing the X-rays they have seen dogs with horrible hips and you would think would need surgery but they are running around like nothing is wrong and then they see hips that look good and they are in horrible pain.


Hi ellsworthv, (maybe we should have merged our threads ) considering surgery on your puppy is serious stuff (I wish no one ever had to do so), but like you say, nothing is guaranteed.

It is such a personal thing, and only with your best intentions and sincere efforts towards your puppy's well being can you listen to your heart clearly, you know? 
Either you hope and pray it all turns out right, or you dig deep and do your best and everything in your might to whatever you decide to do, you do it selflessly for your kid and without regret.

Was I scared when facing this decision for my Polar? Terrified. But its the combination of having the appropriate/necessary tests-results, my drive to research and educate myself thoroughly, and my vet who's proven herself to me and my dogs time and time again, and my unwavering love for them.

Luckily this JPS surgery was very simple and he recovered in just one week.

If later on in his life he still develops the HD; well at least I know I only bothered him for one week of his early life trying my best to prevent it. And if he never develops the imminent HD; well whether due to my actions of pure luck, I'll take it.


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## Pooklook (Mar 10, 2014)

Alaska7133 said:


> Do what you think is right for your dog. I wish I had back when I could have. So don't second guess yourself, it's done and hopefully it will make a difference for your dog long term.


Thank you so much Stacey, our kids will gladly and happily live with and overcome any pains or handicaps life may throw at them, that's how much they love us and your comments and reflections are proof of how mutual our love towards them can be.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Pooklook said:


> ...that's very encouraging and yet very discouraging at the same time
> 
> thanks sally's mom, as a vet have you ever had a case such as mine, or even gotten a client's dog who's had the JPS done by the time they come to you? if you have can you tell me about it (if you have but is confidential I'll understand)?


I know very few people who do any kind of early intervention anymore. Most people wait and see, with the option of an FHO or total hip replacement at a later age. I am a fan of dasuquin w/msm and fish oil. All my dogs are raised on it... My second golden, one that I purchased was OFA Fair at two and mildly unilaterally dysplastic at four. She was still showing and jumping soundly in rally until she died at almost twelve. She obtained a CD CDX UD RN RA and was 2/3 of the way to a RE when she died. Never,limped a day after that diagnosis...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Elbow dysplasia is a whole other kettle of fish. I always advocate for intervention with moderate to severe elbow dysplasia. Of course, those patients see a specialist for the surgery...


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## DianaB (Apr 7, 2017)

Not sure if you will get this as it is 2017. I am doing a JPS on my 4 month old Tuesday and was wondering how your surgery turned out long term.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

DianaB said:


> Not sure if you will get this as it is 2017. I am doing a JPS on my 4 month old Tuesday and was wondering how your surgery turned out long term.


Diana are you doing doing his surgery through an ortho specialist or general practitioner vet? Can you post your pup's X-rays? I'd be very leery cutting on your pup if you're not working with a specialist and if you haven't been in communication with your breeder


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## Pooklook (Mar 10, 2014)

Hi Diana, sorry I didn't reply to you sooner.
Don't know if you ended up doing it for your pup, but my Polar is doing amazingly!!! He's a strong active pup, we go hiking every weekend for many miles and his hips is one thing less I would have to worry because I followed my heart and did my due research about it. So glad I did it and I'll never regret that.
What ever you decide to do, do what you believe it is best for your furkid ^_^
If you want to see Polar today check his Instagram page @my_golden_polar
Best of luck!
Pablo


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## DianaB (Apr 7, 2017)

Thank you,

We did do the JPS and it worked well. I wish more people considered the JPS it was a fairly simple fix to a problem that would have effected his life. I don't know why breeders are so against it. We did a Penn Hip prior and it was a clear case of HD even at 16 weeks.


The sad part is we had to put our puppy to sleep. He was a genetic mess. Shoulder OCD we fixed then his knee went out. At 9 months he was never able to run or play, was on pain meds for a back issue and was facing another surgery for his knee. His leg was in an odd position and his quality of life was poor. I visited 3 vets and had numerous consults and it was with a very heavy heart I made the decision.



Diana


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## Pooklook (Mar 10, 2014)

ohh nooo! :'( I'm so very sorry to hear this! It is so heartbreaking that you went through all that and your puppy had to fight so hard at such an early age. 

I know I'll get crucified for this, but somehow most breeders (oddly abundant in this forum) seem critical and dismissive about anything other that what they themselves practice. And while their practices, protocols and regulations may be in good faith, such will always be the minimum necessary rather than the best possible. Bottom line is most breeders are running a lucrative business no matter how well intended, or how much love, blood, sweat and tears they put into it -it's still a business. Same thing applies to vets. Doing your own research and being open minded is so important.

So I commend you for sticking to your guns and going through with the JPS, I know I'll never regret it! Always learn and listen to make an informed decision, but above all follow your heart -your furkiddo will know and love you for it.

My heart goes out to you and I hope you find it in you to give another puppy the life and love that you were so ready to give to your fur-angel puppy.

Pablo


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Pablo, the reason why breeders AND VETS are against doing crazy stuff with puppies based on "loose hips" is because stuff tightens up as dogs grow. And dogs adjust to whatever cards that nature dealt them in most cases. A HD dx is NOT a reason for surgery in most cases. You are putting a dog through an unnecessary surgery.

I'll give you a prime example. There is a friend of mine who does agility, obedience, conformation, and harness/sled stuff with her malamutes. She had a vet dx a young dog (about 12 months old) with HD based on loose hips. And this vet was all prepared to put her dog through surgery. She took her dog to the head of orthopedic surgery at MSU and he had a fit at the idea of putting a young dog through surgery just because of loose hips. He told her what activities and supplements to do and use for the next 12-24 months and told her to come back afterwards to have the hips re-done. 

When she came back at about 30 months and did OFA's - the dog had excellent hips. 

If she had listened to the original vet who was urging her to do surgery, she would have destroyed her dog's hips for no reason and set him up for arthritis later in life. And dogs who get hip surgery DO have arthritis develop later in life. Same thing with elbow surgery. That is why you don't want to jump to conclusions and do surgeries right off without there being an absolutely good reason to do it.

One case I saw on fb recently was a 10 month old lab whose one hip looked excellent, and the other hip was not only nonexistent, but it looked like it had gotten chewed up. It was horrific. This dog was a prime example of one who needed surgery to fix that bad hip. Because not only would have inability to use that leg because of pain, but he would be putting a lot of wear and tear on his other hip. That's a prime case of a dog that needs surgery. 

There are sickos out there who put dogs through all kinds of surgeries because it makes them feel good to be "fixing" things. And they are constantly finding things to "fix". And there are crooked vets out there who are eager to perform any and all kinds of surgeries. 

If these people were doing the same kind of stuff to their children - it would be called Munchhausen syndrome.


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## DianaB (Apr 7, 2017)

Jps is not "crazy" stuff. It was developed based on science and by those who have been studying dogs for a long time.
To understand why you do the procedure one has to look at the Penn hip and why it
Is a great predictor of HD even at 16 weeks. It is not an xray it its a measure of distraction and laxity.
Second the procedure is a fairly simple thing as a preventative measure against a life of pain and cost.


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## JPS (Oct 1, 2017)

Pooklook said:


> Hi Everyone:wave: (just recently joined and this is my 1st post so please bare with me)
> 
> Does anyone here have any experience or input on JPS (Juvenile Pubic Symphysiodesis surgery) after PENN Hip DI (distractive index) results?
> 
> ...


my 2 dogs had JPS surgery (do not want to disclose breed). my 1st puppy came home at 3 mths with bad knees (bilateral patella luxation grade 2 and grade 3), bad hips (hip dysplasia) and under bit. he had the JPS surgery at 4 mths and is doing well. he is now 2 1/2 yrs old. he was dx by my vet who is an ortho specialist for hip problems. he had positive ortolani sign and x-rays. no Penn HIP was done. my 2nd pup just had JPS surgery, post-op 2 wks. I hope we did it in time for I was very hesitant in going through this surgery again. she had hers done shy of 18 wks. the window of opportunity in having this surgery is between 3 and 5 mths offering a narrow window for a positive therapeutic outcome. as form of diagnoses, she had the stand x-ray plus Penn Hip x-ray. her DI for the right hip was 0.71 and DI for the left hip was 0.72 with mean at 0.54 for her breed. although the tested subject population by Penn HIP was small of 102, which means that the average mean could have shifted to the right or left if the subject population was larger affecting the DI. 

the problem with this surgery, being I had it done, on 2 of my dogs is that you get a lot of mouth from reputable breeders not to do preventative corrective surgery to prevent OA from developing. these breeders tell you wait till the dog is 2 yrs old and then have them x-ray and sent to OFA for reading. if the dog is good, than OK to breed, but if the dog shows unhealthy signs, than neuter or spay the dog and sale it to some one as a companion dog with the knowledge of developing OA. OFA also says, if Penn HIP DI is high i.e. in my pup but insignificant signs of physical hip discomfort, than leave dog alone and tx later-on, in life with meds or surgery. basically let the dog grow up with the knowledge of developing OA. than what is preventative screening measures done for, i.e. vaccines, pap smears, mammogram, prostate examines, x-rays to RO ..., bone scans and the list goes on. when screening is done, it is to prevent and not to do medical intervention just because. 

So at 2 yrs old, after being screened by OFA, the dog has lost opportunity to have corrective surgery between 3 and 5 mths of age and the new owner is stuck with a dog that shows signs of OA. a reputable breeder's philosophy is, I am breeding out bad dogs from the breeding group/population, but yet had a puppy with joint problems selling them to someone else to deal with the expensive health issues. so as a dog owner, I believe in preventative medicine and JPS surgery was for my dogs. the question is finding the right qualified vet that knows what they are doing and won't gouge you. 

my other grief is that you have these backyard dog breeders that breed for profit and don't have their parent dog's joints, thyroid, PHPT, eyes, heart or what ever else checked out and are selling the pups with genetic problems as healthy pups by vet check, even with a pedigree blood line that has been checked out by OFA with results of good or normal. the famous line that these breeders say, I am breeding a companion dog and not one of those breeders (reputable breeders), and have never bred a sick dog and don't follow the ethical code of ethics in breeding. on the other hand, when dealing with a reputable breeder, you buy a dog from them, but they own the dog and your life wrapped around their contract of puppy sale. when the reputable breeder is told that their pup came down with, what ever ... you're told, oh well, it happens, no guarantees given, but yet you pay top dollar for a suppositly healthy pup from these reputable breeders. 

so spending hundredth of dollars on a pup from either a backyard breeder or a reputable breeder in hope that you get a healthy pup has no merit. you play your odd when purchasing a pup from these breeders, hence the reason us owners have to spend thousands of dollars on preventative JPS surgeries to RO medical problems that breeder impose on owners.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

j.drew said:


> the problem with this surgery, being I had it done, on 2 of my dogs is that you get a lot of mouth from reputable breeders not to do preventative corrective surgery to prevent OA from developing. these breeders tell you wait till the dog is 2 yrs old and then have them x-ray and sent to OFA for reading. if the dog is good, than OK to breed, but if the dog shows unhealthy signs, than neuter or spay the dog and sale it to some one as a companion dog with the knowledge of developing OA. OFA also says, if Penn HIP DI is high i.e. in my pup but insignificant signs of physical hip discomfort, than leave dog alone and tx later-on, in life with meds or surgery. basically let the dog grow up with the knowledge of developing OA.


j.drew - with golden retrievers and other large breeds, you have a chance that the hips will tighten up and their hips will clear. And even if they do not clear, it does not mean that OA will develop and cripple a dog. 

My 10 year old golden retriever has bilateral hip dysplasia (ofa'd mild) but to this day shows no clinical signs of hip dysplasia. He is on no pain meds. And the joint supplement that he gets is the same that my younger dog who has full clearances gets. Meaning he is not getting any extra treatment that a dog with full clearances wouldn't get His hips have been re-checked several times in his life and they look about the same as they did when he was 3. This dog is a beautiful mover. He's got pure muscle from front to back. Some of that was my endeavors to keep him well-muscled, but the rest is him. He's strong. His movement is prettier than some dogs in the ring out there. It is what it is. If we had done the JPS surgery on him, it would not have changed anything. He could not be bred or shown, because with surgical correction he cannot get clearances anyway. And with the surgery, like any - there might be a chance that instead of him being the typical dog with age related arthritis by the time he's 11-13 years old, he could have had progressive arthritis by the time he was 5 just from the surgery. 

If your vet is hustling you to have this surgery done on every dog you bring to have xrays done... at some point you have to wonder if it is your dogs or the specific breed, or it's the vet who truly believes in this surgery being done as a matter of course. Some vets do have procedures or issue that they are really hooked on.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Ahh, the old PennHip argument again.

What it comes down to is this, If you have a dog with severely malformed hips, by all means undertake the JPS procedure. 

What if your pup doesn't have a case of severely malformed hips. This is where things get a lot more gray and subjective in nature. Where do you draw the line? That's the big question and the large white elephant in the room. 

The JPS procedure might help to stave off a potential problem, but then again it may not. There is no guarantee for any surgical procedure. What can be assured is that there will be scar tissue at the surgery site and that does lead to complications down the road. Then there is the other thing that some folks don't like to talk about when doing surgery on a puppy, that is they don't always react well to anesthesia. (Adults are more predictable, puppies not so much.) Are you willing to roll the dice and risk your puppies life on major surgery for something that "might" make things better?

In most cases it comes down to "Who do you trust?" 

Around here it ain't PennHip.


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## ajablaja (Nov 2, 2017)

Swampcollie said:


> Ahh, the old PennHip argument again.
> 
> What it comes down to is this, If you have a dog with severely malformed hips, by all means undertake the JPS procedure.
> 
> ...


Hi!

I found this thread by searching online. I got a newfoundland puppy from a rescue (puppy mill dog), and decided to have her hips x-rayed and do a pennhip test just to see how she fairs.

She is 5 months, 1 week (ish hard to tell exact age with rescues), and has an index score of 0.7. She is scheduled for an ortelani exam on Monday (and if they feel it is necessary based off of that, JPS surgery same day).

I am seriously on the fence about whether or not to do it. I have read every website about it, gotten opinions from vets, etc, but not that many ortho. vets out there have done a lot of JPS surgeries. And only 1 really in my state.

Also, I signed up for pet insurance a little late (JPS surgery wouldn't be covered anyways I assume since it would be preventative). I wonder if I get JPS surgery now, if Trupanion would later cover some kind of hip replacement if needed.

In any case, I have opened up pandora's box, and feel like it may help to get jps done, or it could do nothing and my dog could still get arthritis in the future. Right now, she shows no clinical signs of any pain or anything. Tips/ thoughts / ideas?

If I have to spend $2000 now to avoid a $8000 hip replacement in the future, then great. However, I know JPS isnt every guaranteed. And there is a chance that even if I got the surgery, puppy might still have problems down the road.

Can someone please help point me in the right direction? I am scheduled for Monday, and am so torn. Thank you for your help!


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## Pooklook (Mar 10, 2014)

Hi there ajablaja! Kuddos to you for rescuing your newfy pup and for doing your research on JPS. As you already know, it's controversial around here. However, as someone who has opted to do it for Polar, my 4yo hiking enthusiast/outdoor adventurer Golden, I can tell you, it works for what it is intended: to possibly prevent your dog from a life of pain and serious surgical undergoings down the line. It's just that simple.
Now, a lot of folks here claim concern over risking "your puppies life on major surgery" and the effects of anesthesia. Well, the surgery is actually NOT MAJOR! and minimally invasive with a two-week full recovery and no issues. And YES!! you MUST TRUST your vet for any and all procedures done to your pup, not just for surgery.
So, what I can tell you is this; it's a two part process, FIRST the propet testing is PENNHIP (not a typical x-ray) and SECOND the JPS (if needed AND recommended -since age window is also critical).
Anyways, it comes down to the right ingredients; do you trust your vet? (with whatever they tell you and how competent they are at any given procedure); do the PENNHIP results warrant JPS (if the index is minimal maybe not worth it); is your pup at the right age window (to have JPS done with optimal results); is your pup prone to dysplasia (some breeds are more likely to suffer from it); if PENNHIP and your trusted vet tells you your pup is gonna eventually be in pain for it, would you try to prevent it now if you could? 
Follow your gut and your heart. Trust yourself and if you trust your vet, all the better!
Check this informative presentation: 



 from my vet's office. My vet is Dr. Henderson, and Dr. Shufer is her vet partner and the one who performed the JPS on Polar. 
If you want to see my pup's results down the line, feel free to check Polar's instagram @My_Golden_Polar ...I have no regrets! ;-)


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## irena3p (Apr 15, 2021)

ajablaja said:


> Hi!
> 
> I found this thread by searching online. I got a newfoundland puppy from a rescue (puppy mill dog), and decided to have her hips x-rayed and do a pennhip test just to see how she fairs.
> 
> ...


Hello! I am wondering if you went ahead wit JPS surgery and what was the outcome? I am currently in the same situation..
Many thanks!
Irena


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