# National Owner Handler Series - AKC



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

From the AKC website:

Is the AKC National Owner-Handled Series the same thing as the Amateur-Owner-Handler Class?
A. No, the Amateur-Owner-Handler Class is a regular class and the winner of this class will compete in the Winners Class for AKC Championship points. The AKC National Owner-Handled Series is a special attraction that selects an Owner-Handled dog from all eligible dogs in the Best of Breed ring including the Winners Dog or Bitch. *However, no points towards a championship will be awarded in the Series.*


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I also just read that everyone will compete at the same time, but at the end of the BOB, the judge asks all non-owner/handlers to leave the ring. And the judge awards the points to one of the BOB, WB, BOW dog/bitch. So it's a totally different competition with a national competition between owner handlers at the end of the year. Kind of interesting. It sounds more like an atta boy for winning if you are an owner-handler.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

My thoughts below:



Alaska7133 said:


> Any thoughts or comments?
> 1. If you use a pro, would the NOH series put you in the show ring with your dog? No, it wouldn't. Winning against other owners doesn't appeal to me, I wanted to have my dog judged a bench champion by AKC judges. This will be a meaningless title from that point of view.
> 2. Do you think the points should count differently? Absolutely, as it will remove some of the best dogs from the competition, and in order for my dog to be legitimately declared a breed champion he should have to beat the best dogs out there.
> 3. Do you think the dog should be given a different title if they get their championship in the NOH ring instead of the general ring? Same as #2
> ...


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Tonya Struble of Rush Hill is a good example of a pro-owner-handler-breeder. You should see her in the ring, no matter what dogs she is showing. She's definitely a heavy hitter. There is a forum member here that I show against sometimes. Another pro-owner-handler-breeder. She does very well and has helped my handling.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, there are quite a few of them who are formidable opponents....and great people!




Alaska7133 said:


> Tonya Struble of Rush Hill is a good example of a pro-owner-handler-breeder. You should see her in the ring, no matter what dogs she is showing. She's definitely a heavy hitter. There is a forum member here that I show against sometimes. Another pro-owner-handler-breeder. She does very well and has helped my handling.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

They already do this. 

When you fill out an entry, there's a box at the bottom for you to state whether you are eligible for this or not. I've always checked it, but honestly.... haven't stuck around to see how it works. Maybe I will next show. I was under the impression that you have to go WD and/or the steward would tell you to stick around. Like Barb indicated above, there's some pretty GOOD dogs around here who are handled by their breeders. The last show I went to that had this - the dog that won the OH designation (or whatever) that day was also the WD. 

To answer your questions....


*1. If you use a pro, would the NOH series put you in the show ring with your dog?*

- Does not apply to me. 

*2. Do you think the points should count differently?*

- The points you earn aren't related to CH points. So doesn't matter.

*3. Do you think the dog should be given a different title if they get their championship in the NOH ring instead of the general ring?*

- They can't.

*4. Do you think this is the right track for AKC?*

YES. It is way too much in the "Junior Handlers are the Future of our Sport". More people should feel encouraged to show their dogs if they themselves are able. 

*5. Do you think this will increase the number of dogs entered in dog shows if owner-handlers don't have to compete as much against the pros? 
*
- Doesn't apply.... you have to show against pros in regular classes when you enter a show. The series is in addition to the regular show.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

*This is how it's broken down for showing -*

Judging of the breed/variety for the regular show may determine the dog that is awarded Owner-Handled Best of Breed. Please follow these guidelines:


If the Best of Breed/Variety winner of the regular show is eligible for the AKC National Owner-Handled Series competition, it will also be awarded Owner-Handled Best of Breed. In this case the dog will be eligible to compete in group competition for the regular show and group competition for the AKC National Owner-Handled Series.
If the regular show Best of Breed/Variety winner is not eligible for AKC National Owner-Handled Series competition and the regular show Best of Opposite Sex to Best of Breed/Variety is eligible, the regular show Best of Opposite Sex to Best of Breed/Variety will compete against the eligible exhibits of the other sex to determine Owner-Handled Best of Breed.
If neither the Best of Breed nor the Best of Opposite Sex to Best of Breed/Variety from the regular show is eligible for the AKC National Owner-Handled Series competition and both the Select Dog and Select Bitch are eligible, the judge is to choose Owner-Handled Best of Breed from the Selects and any eligible Winners Dog or Winners Bitch.
If one of the Selects from the regular show is eligible for AKC National Owner-Handled Series competition, excuse all eligible champions and non-regular class winners of the same sex and then choose Owner-Handled Best of Breed from the remaining eligible dogs of the opposite sex including the eligible Winners.
If the regular show Best of Breed, Best of Opposite Sex to Best of Breed, Select Dog & Select Bitch are not eligible, the judge may choose any eligible dog who competed in Best of Breed including Winners Dog or Winners Bitch as the Owner-Handled Best of Breed.
If no dog remaining in the ring is eligible for the AKC National Owner-Handled Series competition, Owner-Handled Best of Breed will not be awarded and the breed/variety will not be represented in group competition for the AKC National Owner-Handled Series.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I think AKC's heart is in the right place here but their head is not.
The AOH competition was meant to encourage people in handler-heavy breeds. However requiring that you win WD or WB to be eligible against the specials is ridiculous. The judge is not truly picking the best amateur owner handled dog in the ring, he is picking the best between the specials and his Winners should the occasion arise that they are owner-handled. Either EVERY dog who is owner-handled should be in consideration (regardless if they are WD or WB), or the judges should pick between the winners of the AOH CLASS plus owner-handled specials. How they have it now makes no sense.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Anney,
I totally agree with you. How often does an owner-handler take a golden to BOB in any show? Not too often, not even here in Alaska. Anney, you're an owner handler, how do you think AKC should encourage more owner-handlers or make it possible to owner-handlers to win against such high odds? At our March show I watched a pro go from ring to ring to ring all day. Owner-handlers just don't get the chance to get that much experience. That's why pros are so good.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> I think AKC's heart is in the right place here but their head is not.
> The AOH competition was meant to encourage people in handler-heavy breeds. However requiring that you win WD or WB to be eligible against the specials is ridiculous. The judge is not truly picking the best amateur owner handled dog in the ring, he is picking the best between the specials and his Winners should the occasion arise that they are owner-handled. Either EVERY dog who is owner-handled should be in consideration (regardless if they are WD or WB), or the judges should pick between the winners of the AOH CLASS plus owner-handled specials. How they have it now makes no sense.


I think the problem is that as it is right now - the person who gets the nod for best owner handler in the show - they deserve to be there, because they did better than all the other owner handlers entered in the show. 

They break it down from the best of breed ring to whoever won the classes. And if no owner handler won a class, then that is when they bring any eligible people (anyone who checked the box). 

If they didn't do it this way, then it would be exactly as Barb suggested in her post. 

^ As it is, pretty much every show that I've seen - there are good OH winning. Like yesterday Cindy Pishke went OS with her Duckie. Dog who was Select was another owner handler with her CH. 

I guess the relative quibble is Cindy's not an amateur handler. So it probably isn't helping those amateur handlers out there (like me) who just getting started....


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Funny thing - we had this conversation and I pretty much, as I said, presume that you have to get WD in order to qualify for this.... right? 

I glanced at results for the dog show today - we won our class but I had a clown boy in the winners ring so did not get the look for WD or Reserve.... and I was bummed because today was a really good day for the kiddo. 

So I packed up my belongings and headed home. 

Just found out that the other owner handlers were either absent or did not place higher than 3rd in their classes. Or they did not check the box. The one is a professional handler and the other (she's an obedience person)... I am not 100% sure if she handled her own dogs today so could be that's why. So Bertie won BOBOH by default. Er... or I did (Best Owner Handler in Breed)....

I'm not sure how I feel about that. LOL. I probably wouldn't have gotten too silly about it if I were there though. Haha.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

No, you wouldn't have won best owner-handler because you were not WD. See, it makes no sense.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hmmm (looking at what I posted earlier and going on AKC.org).... now I'm really confused. 

I see why the people I was thinking of as OH did not check the box - as pro handlers aren't allowed, even when they own the dogs. I guess? 



> The Owner-Handled Best of Breed will be selected from the eligible dogs that competed in the Best of Breed/Variety competition for the regular show. This includes Winners Dog, Winners Bitch, and the undefeated winners of the non-regular classes. _This excludes all dogs defeated during class and winners competition for the regular show._





> If the regular show Best of Breed, Best of Opposite Sex to Best of Breed, Select Dog & Select Bitch are not eligible, the judge may choose any eligible dog who competed in Best of Breed including Winners Dog or Winners Bitch as the Owner-Handled Best of Breed.
> 
> If no dog remaining in the ring is eligible for the AKC National Owner-Handled Series competition, Owner-Handled Best of Breed will not be awarded and the breed/variety will not be represented in group competition for the AKC National Owner-Handled Series.


 ^ So going by this, definitely looks like the judge or steward made a mistake. LOL. So going by that - glad I didn't stick around. I would have felt like Michael Jackson accepting someone else's reward!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Here's a link to a video AKC made regarding the NOHS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzZfxfE8db4


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## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

Just wanted to add a positive perspective on the NOHS. I kind of scoffed at the idea of the series when I first heard about it. In real terms, it does amount to little more than a pat on the back. But I'm actually surprised to find how much I appreciate it, to the point where it is influencing my thinking about which shows I should enter going forward.

My boy just finished his American championship (yes, I'm thrilled) -- he is a little over two and was not shown until 19 months -- but we're in a region with extremely competitive male specials, almost all of whom are pro-handled. Flatcoats are slow to mature in both mind and body, and even among dogs who come to be wildly successful in the breed and group rings, it's unusual to see much of this success before 3 or 4. I'm actually shocked watching both my dog and others by just how much better they look from month to month between the ages of about 2 and 4. I've really been enjoying the conformation ring as it has been a great way to get to know other owners, and I'd like to keep showing him several times a year. At this stage though, it is totally unrealistic for me to expect to win against some of the big guns he'd be up against, especially since my presentation skills still need a lot of work. But those aren't going to improve unless we keep showing, and its great to have a goal to keep me going in the meantime. The NOHS may be a pat on the back, but I actually really love winning the associated ribbons and points. In a breed dominated by pros, it is easy to get frustrated and hand your dog off to a handler. For me, the owner-handler series gives us a kind of intermediate goal/incentive to work with while my boy and I both hopefully keep improving.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

With a FCR you can attend shows without a lot of other FCRs, so you have more opportunity to get to the next level in the NOHS. Over in goldens, unfortunately there are so many competitors that taking breed to get farther in NOHS is pretty difficult. It's great that it will work to your advantage and move you along.

At one point in time earlier this year, AKC was going to require it at any show that over special classes such as puppy or veteran sweeps. That would mean most shows would have to offer NOHS. But AKC has dropped that requirement, so I'm not sure how well it will take off now. I did compete in one show this year that did have NOHS. The club hosting was working hard to learn the rules for NOHS. I didn't get to see how it went for them.

So have you won any NOHS points? What was the showing like at that level? Did you have to wait a long time to get to do that part of the show? Did you go to group first then NOHS? Let us know the details!


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## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

Alaska7133 said:


> With a FCR you can attend shows without a lot of other FCRs, so you have more opportunity to get to the next level in the NOHS. Over in goldens, unfortunately there are so many competitors that taking breed to get farther in NOHS is pretty difficult. It's great that it will work to your advantage and move you along.


Definitely, and as noted, most of the specials here are pro-handled, so I don't necessarily have a ton of competition within the breed for the NOHS points. But I'm grateful for anything that helps keep me going. I can see where the temptation to just hire a handler enters the equation and for me this is a small push in the opposite direction.

It seems like the specific impact of the series varies a lot from breed to breed, and I don’t doubt that things are very different in Goldens than in FCRs. Interestingly, BOBOH has not been assigned in Goldens at any of the NOHS shows I've been to. I guess many Golden breeder-owner-handlers in the region don't declare their eligibility. Don’t know why. There are other big competitive breeds, however, wherein owner-handlers, including long-time breeders, seem to be enthusiastic participants. It's not entirely clear to me what factors are impacting participation from breed to breed, because it’s still all over the map.



Alaska7133 said:


> At one point in time earlier this year, AKC was going to require it at any show that over special classes such as puppy or veteran sweeps. That would mean most shows would have to offer NOHS. But AKC has dropped that requirement, so I'm not sure how well it will take off now. I did compete in one show this year that did have NOHS. The club hosting was working hard to learn the rules for NOHS. I didn't get to see how it went for them.


I do think that host clubs and their superintendents can influence the relative success or failure of O-H competitions. I've been to a few shows with judging schedules that did not specify approximate start times for O-H groups, and I was unwilling to stick around on really hot days for further judging without knowing when it would happen. In other instances, stewards and judges just weren't well informed about the competition being a part of the day in the first place, which makes it difficult to take seriously. But at the show I attended this past weekend, things were well organized and every single dog in the Sporting Group who had won Owner-Handled Best of Breed stuck around for the O-H group (about 20 breeds were represented), so some people are clearly beginning to pay attention.



Alaska7133 said:


> So have you won any NOHS points? What was the showing like at that level? Did you have to wait a long time to get to do that part of the show? Did you go to group first then NOHS? Let us know the details!


We do have some NOHS points, all earned from breed competition rather than the groups. Breed judging takes place either during or immediately after Best of Breed. In several cases, the judge has just handed out BOBOH ribbons along with BOB, BOW, BOS, Select, etc rather than asking owner-handled dogs to return to the ring after the fact. The O-H groups happen late in the day but usually begin before regular groups so dogs who have also gone Best of Breed don't have schedule conflicts. I’ve enjoyed them. It’s a good opportunity to watch some really excellent owner-handlers with outstanding dogs, and in every instance I think I’ve learned something from the experience. If nothing else, it's another opportunity for me work on my handling skills.

Overall, it ends up meaning different things to different people and for reasons that are not always within the control of individual participants. But its been a good experience for me so far, and I’m finding that I’m actually really glad it exists.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

flatcoated said:


> Interestingly, BOBOH has not been assigned in Goldens at any of the NOHS shows I've been to. I guess many Golden breeder-owner-handlers in the region don't declare their eligibility. Don’t know why.


No -- they are declaring OH eligibility on the entry form -- but committing the crime of not winning WD or WB on the day of the show, thus are no longer eligible for consideration. Rare is the owner handled special in goldens. Rare is the owner-handler who wins WD or WB. Dogs shown in AOH or BBE, who by definition are owner-handled, are not necessarily eligible. I have been showing dogs consistently since the OH series started and have yet to even step in the ring after BOB to compete for BOH award, as the days they've offered it I haven't had the stroke of luck to win WD. In most of those shows, nobody enters the ring to compete for BOH, meanwhile there were 10 owner-handlers in the classes. The system is seriously screwed up!!!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Anney,
How would you fix it?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Have ALL OWNER HANDLERS that declared it on their entry form return into the ring after BOB judging. Of course if BOW or BOB were owner handled, they automatically would win, no judging needed. If two dogs were in the same class, only the highest placing dog would come back in, since he's already defeated other owner-handled dogs.
OR -- have ONLY the winners of the Amateur-Owner-Handler classes plus specials owner-handled be eligible, much like Best Bred By or Best Puppy awards are handled (although these do not allow in specials, which once again, is crazy).


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I agree the rules are hard to follow and don't seem to help breeds with large entries or large amounts of pro handlers. AOH classes are generally unfilled. Most people I think see it as a stigma and see no possibility of winning. How would you take away the stigma? What class do you normally enter your boys in? I usually enter in Open. How would you publicize the whole NOHS to get more people to check that box?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

AOH class goes empty because there's no incentive to enter. If they had conveniently tied the NOHS with that class, you'd see entries in it! Right now there's no compelling reason to enter that class, unless you just want a ribbon.
I've had Bally in puppy classes until he aged out, have shown him once in AmBred but am holding off until he's grown up then he'll go in Open. Slater was always in Open.
We HAVE lots of people checking the O-H box --- we just don't have a lot of them winning WD, WB or showing a special on the day they offer the competition. There will be 5-15 owner handlers listed in the catalog at any given show, yet no BOBOH awarded because of the rules.


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## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

I agree with Anney's first recommendation. But I think AOH class entries only plus owner-handled specials is problematic, since people often worry that they won't be competitive for Winners with many judges out of the Amateur-Owner-Handler class. Have never entered a class other than Open myself.

As things stand, I think better organization and communication are essential to the continuation and success of the program. The little owner-handler eligible box at the bottom of entry forms is also easy to miss and it's not made clear why it's there in the first place. I believe it's present on all AKC entry forms, regardless of whether or not NOHS is part of a given show, so I'm sure that confuses a lot of the people who notice it in the first place. Overall, the organization of the program definitely needs work, but it's not without potential.

And I have absolutely nothing against the use of pro handlers, but I do think owner-handlers should be encouraged to take pride in their decision to show their dogs themselves. The only way you can become a person with 20+ years of experience is to put in years 1, 2, etc, but that's a long road to look down when you're beginning. The best dogs and best owners participating in the O-H series set an example of what it's possible to become by putting in this time and effort, and I think it's a valuable example to have when it's easy to look around and feel like all you see is pros.


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## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

K9-Design said:


> AOH class goes empty because there's no incentive to enter. If they had conveniently tied the NOHS with that class, you'd see entries in it! Right now there's no compelling reason to enter that class, unless you just want a ribbon.



There's a chicken or egg problem here. If all Owner-Handlers could be persuaded to enter the AOH class, I suppose judges might begin taking it more seriously, but I think a lot of people would be afraid to find out. I like winning BOBOH, but I would never trade a shot at this for a shot at Winners. And while the idea that many judges take Open more seriously in Winners judging may be a product of flawed perception, it's still a perception that drives many decisions about which class to enter.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

flatcoated said:


> There's a chicken or egg problem here. If all Owner-Handlers could be persuaded to enter the AOH class, I suppose judges might begin taking it more seriously, but I think a lot of people would be afraid to find out. I like winning BOBOH, but I would never trade a shot at this for a shot at Winners. And while the idea that many judges take Open more seriously in Winners judging may be a product of flawed perception, it's still a perception that drives many decisions about which class to enter.



Yes but think of it the same way as Bred-By class. Very similar idea, but obviously been around a lot longer.....

The jury's still out for me on whether it was a good idea at all for AKC to start to segregate the classes based on who is handling the dog. But then again, they did it for Bred-By...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

You know.... the Amateur Owner Class is a great place to get used to the being out there in the ring. It's not so much about winning early on as it is having a low pressure way to get going. The judges tend to assume you know nothing and help you out more while you are out there not just in the class, but in the Winners Ring if you've won your class. 

With Bertie, I had a young dog who had a tendency to submissive piddle out there when the judge went over him. Or moving around on the exam. And he'd bounce around or drag me in the ring while going around. So since I couldn't put him in a puppy class (where inexperience of the dog is understood), I put him in the AOH classes (where inexperience of the handler is understood). 

ETA - I made the decision to show him when he was about 12 months old. Last September, I brought him out to a local golden specialty to have him looked at by a couple people... and same month had all his breeders re-evaluate him for me and received advice for handling classes, etc. I took handling classes from Oct through December and did his very first show in January. And then all clubs were on winter break pretty much until April. So I didn't get that chance to show him early and often in puppy classes. And had to do it with him being in the adult classes - which again, thanks to AOH was not as embarrassing as it could have been.  


I would definitely say that while I had Bertie in those AOH classes and he couldn't hold still for the exam.... even if we won our class, I did not always feel entitled to win in the winners ring, so it wasn't a problem when we didn't win. Wins at the time were more along the lines of me seeing improvement in my dog. Or my own handling skills.

I never had a plan to show indefinitely in AOH. Just long enough to get my bearings and give Bertie a chance to "mentally" grow up. So after doing AOH for a month, I started putting him into American Bred. Which can sometimes be an empty class with just you out there, or you can sometimes have 1-2 other people in the ring with you. From what I get listening to other people about this class, they put dogs in this class who either won't stand out in the Open ring, or who don't look enough like the others to stand out in a good way. The way I looked at it was I wasn't ready to put my dog in against 3 year olds in Open. 

I think at this point, I'll show him in Open going forward... but I did absolutely appreciate having those AOH entries early on to work with my dog in the ring, etc.

One thing that had me scratching my head was when I saw somebody showing a flat coat in Amateur Owner.... this when I know she had already put CH's on prior dogs. I don't know what the rules are specifically on this, but if you are technically not an amateur owner in the respect of never showing a dog before or never titling a dog before... I don't think you should enter this class! That's aside the point. 

That's all pretty much separate from the National Owner Handler Series. 

With the NOHS... I'm still a little confused. 

But I guess put it this way... if no owner handlers win (meaning WD and WB) and no owner handlers win Breed with specials. And no owner handlers won their classes and or multiple owner handlers won their classes. Then I'd suggest the next thing to do is bring any owner handler entries back into the ring for the judge to pick the winner that way. 

Right now the series is limited to dogs who win, which is fine - because you do have a lot of owner handlers winning in the ring. But I guess if the idea is really putting a spotlight on owner handlers... there's ways of making sure there's always a BOH (or whatever it is) in every show that does this.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Megora, was your win with your guy in Open Dogs?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Yes. First time in Open.

That's no guarantee of a win though. A lot of the shows earlier this year, you had Am Bred winning a couple times, and the judge also picking from the 12-18 class.


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## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

I agree with Megora that the AOH class and NOHS are currently regarded very differently.

It's clear that having more classes available creates some problem with exhibitor perception that may or may not be grounded in reality. I've seen judges pick from Novice, Am-Bred, AOH, etc, but entries in those classes are inherently limited by fears that _some_ judges may not give dogs from those classes a fair shake. Unless the AKC can find an effective way to combat this, I do wonder if it wouldn't be better to simplify and stick to age divisions only.

Obviously I like the NOHS but have reservations about the Amateur-Owner-Handler class, and I can see trying to fuse them going in one of two directions. In the best case scenario, the NOHS might boost entries in AOH and lessen associated stigmas, but in the worst case scenario, both could suffer. And making that transition effectively could be especially difficult with owner-handled specials also in the running, since many exhibitors might question the likelihood of their being competitive in the final owner-handled competition at all.


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