# possession aggression/ fear biting????



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I am begging you to consult a certified veterinary behavioralist. Google that term and don't give up until you find one. Many will require a referal from your vet, so get scheduled for a checkup. I know this will not be a cheap endeavor, but it will probably save you money in the long run. Have you done any training with this puppy? If so, also google the term "Nothing in Life is Free" and start reading up on it. It was recommended to me by my behavioralist when we consulted over our puppy's similiar behavior. Basically the puppy gets nothing without 'earning' it from you. Even to pet him, he obeys a command first, like 'sit' and then you pet. But you need to figure out what's going on before you end up having a child bitten.

Keep the dog separated from your kids using baby gates and crate and set the dog up for success by not putting her in a position to act out. This means pick up every chew toy, bone or item that she might consider to be of value and put it away. She can still have a chew bone, but only when isolated in her crate. 

Please take action today, don't let this go. You maybe catching it early enough to head off a truly heartbreaking situation. Also, if you have the breeder's contact info, please let them know, if they are a reputable breeder, they need to know what's going on. Don't make it accusatory or act like you want anything, just for informational purposes only. They do need to know.


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## mishybubba (Jul 1, 2011)

I did locate the breeder by Googling different info on her pedigree papers. And we have been requiring her to "do a job" before she goes out, gets pet, comes in, gets fed, etc. Didn't know what it was called but was a suggestion from a friend who trained guiding eyes dogs. Thanks


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

I think you should definitely consult a behaviorist or trainer and keep the dog separated from your kids until this is worked out. I think its great that you noticed the issue early and are going to take steps to fix it. Good luck! Keep us posted!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Yes, please consult a qualified trainer or certified applied animal behaviorist. And if someone tells you they're a behaviorist, please clarify if they mean applied animal behaviorist. Many trainers inappropriately call themselves behaviorists when in fact, they are trainers. A true behaviorist has a master's degree in an animal behavior-related field.

No doubt there are many qualified trainers who work with aggression cases. That's fine too, so long as they are skilled and well versed in how animals learn, etc. Stay away from those touting dominance theory. It's outdated, unnecessary, and a great way to get bitten if you aren't careful.

You have a house full of kids. You need one-on-one help. Aggression is not something to mess with over the internet. More than likely, it's workable with strict compliance to the training program and a great management strategy in place to keep everyone - especially the kids - safe during the behavior mod.

In the meantime - NO KIDS ARE TO TAKE THINGS FROM HER OR BE CLOSE ENOUGH TO TOUCH HER WHEN SHE'S EATING OR CHEWING A BONE. Period. The dog also needs her own space when resting. If YOU have to wake her up, do it by saying her name or clapping - don't touch her -- and then as soon as her eyes open, toss a treat right in front of her nose. (This can slowly desensitize to being startled away - a common occurrence in a home with kids.)


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

The submission coupled with the bouts of being overly assertive makes me wonder if she's had some bad experiences =( That sounds like a confused animal struggling to make sense of what her expectations are because she has been communicated with poorly in the past (before you adopted her). Just my first impression though. 

If she's also growling when woken up, I'd be off to the vet for a good work up and make sure she's not experiencing anything that would be causing pain or extra anxiety. 

I've been working with my golden retriever mix on relatively severe guarding issues since about the same age as your girl, and so far we've had really promising success so keep in mind she is still very young and able to be healed and molded. A behaviorist (or even a very good positive trainer in the mean time, if you're struggling to find behaviorist) is _definitely_ in order since there are children in the house and especially if you're feeling anxiety about working with her. I won't go into all the things you can do to work with resource guarding at home since I'm sure you've seen most of them on the forum (but if you PM me, I can tell you what we've been doing for our personal situation, although your mileage may vary). I would remind you though, like the previous poster implied, avoidance is your best move if you are not in a controlled situation to work with her positively and successfully. You do not want to face a negative situation that you are unable to deal with and exasperate her issues. Crates provide a safe environment for eating and chewing if you are feeling unable to handle her until you get in contact with a professional.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Please get professional help! Your pup is at an age when you can still change things, but it will take concerted effort and lots of time on your part....

Several of people on this forum have recommended the book, Mine! By Jean Donaldson. I recently downloaded it to my kindle just to read it and I find it a useful book.

One of the more useful things I gleaned from the book the Complete Idiot's Guide To Positive Dog Training is that a growl is a warning. It can frequently mean the dog is uncertain, so how you handle it afterwards, can set the subsequent behavior. One of my dogs as a pup would grr when we picked her up. Her daddy's owner told me to "get after her". Her dam's owner and my OTCH trainer friend told me to ignore it and keep picking her up. So I kept picking her up and she is absolutely terrific with kids and adults. As I think about it, she was also somewhat aggressive when she would see her litter mates when a puppy. Yet, as an adult dog she is totally trustworthy with all dogs...so I guess she evolved.

I have never allowed my kids my kids to hug the dogs or pick them up and carry them around. I have had clients bitten in the face by their golden retrievers when kissing them "goodnight.". 

When I was 8 years old, we had a beagle. If the beagle had something special(rawhide, bone, stolen chicken carcass) and went under the dining room table, we knew not to go near the dog. It's not the most fun way to live.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Just wanted to encourage you to share the outcome of your consultation with the professional(s). We would love to support you as you grow with your new girl.

To me it sounds like there may be a combination of previous neglect/abuse and possibly questionable breeding underlying this. Thank you for saving her. I do agree that this is absolutely something to be addressed with urgency, by a professional and with positive and gentle methods. The vet behaviorist I work with recently told me that as much as 95% of aggressive behaviour is due to fear. I think this is an important stat to take to heart.

Good luck!

I second that you read the book Mine, in addition to seeking professional help.


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## mishybubba (Jul 1, 2011)

I have spoken to my husband and there is no way we can afford a Certified Veternary Behaviorist and I only found one in my area and she is 3 hours away. One of the hazards of living on the country I guess. We do have a trainer about an hour away which I have been playing phone tag to see what their qualifications are. I have thought of some other factors that I thought might have some baring. She was adopted at 6 weeks of age at most. They allowed her food bowl to be down and full all of the time and we do not (should we?) Interesting experience today, my husband was home with her and she was asleep at the door. When I got home with my youngest daughter we came in and bumped her bottom with the door. She did not growl or nip. However when I (told my daughter to stay back because she had her ears sucked up against her head) talked to her in a calm but happy voice she didn't wag and her ears never moved (almost looked like she didn't have any) and when I pet her she made a mouthing motion that I normally would have thought was her play biting - but in this case there was no tail wagging and the thing with her ears gave me a different feeling. Also when she had her first vet appointment (the people I got her from had her for 8 weeks atleast and never had her to a vet for boosters or rabies or anything) the vet said she was the worst behaved puppy for her age that he had ever seen. Also going to get the book "mine". But please be completely honest...without the behaviorist is she better off with someone else who can supply that. Do we have any hope??? Bailey really is awesome in every other sense!!!


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

I think there certainly is hope and you seem to be doing a good job controlling the situation and your kids. dogs like this can turn into wonderful pets. However, they cannot do so without an experienced home that is perfectly calm, consistent and able to respond to her signals appropriately. 

I work at a shelter and I have certainly seen many puppies like the one you describe. Ive also seen many of them become great pets. Our behaviorist usually takes them home for remediation with her and her dogs and they become adoptable once they are on the right path, usually to adult only homes with pre-bought classes with a positive reinforcement trainer.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

As I mentioned, a qualified trainer - who uses positive reinforcement and has experience treating resource guarding and other forms of aggression - can likely help you. 

Where do you live?


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## mishybubba (Jul 1, 2011)

Taneytown, MD....there is a trainer in Blue Ridge, PA. There is a trainer in Carroll County but your puppy has to fail every training class for her to consider them. Not sure what her name is, the vet was telling me about her.


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## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

I would second the trainer/behaviourist suggestions, but understand the cost issues. If you think you cannot afford it, then I guess you have a choice - either buy a bunch of books and do some online reading and start learning as much as you can about remedial work for your dog, or think of giving your dog up to a possibly very uncertain future (if he resource guards in a shelter then he doesn't have much of one ......)

I would suggest a variation on the Nothing In Life Is Free, follow this link to a behaviour plan called Leading The Dance (LTD) formulated by the clicker trainer Sue Ailsby. If at all possible I would also follow the recommendations in it and start working your pup with a clicker, although you can follow parts of the plan without using a clicker. Whatever you do, don't do any part of it that you think will lead to you getting bitten. Also, involve your children in it, so that when you are following parts of it, like ignoring him when he's umbilically leashed to you, make sure your children ignore him as best as they can too.

I'd suggest a good beginner clicker book, like Clicking with Your Dog, and reading a bunch of clicker websites if you are going to start clicker training - which is a great thing to do at that age. There are some specific clicker books aimed at aggressive dogs, but they are usually for dog aggressive issues, and often where the problem is quite advanced. For non clicker books obviously Mine! is a great book for resource guarding as has already been suggested I believe.

Good luck with whatever path you follow.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

The way that we feed fearful pups at the shelter is using a clicker, rewarding for coming to us bu keeping calm and feet on the floor. This exercise requires a clicker and must be done by an adult in a calm environment with no other people around at first.

First "load the clicker": teach the pup that the click means food. Click, throw a kibble on the floor, click kibble, click kibble. Repeat ten times.

Then start to click as soon as puppy does what you want - if the puppy does no come near you for food for example, click right when he looks at you. Throw kibble right after clicking. Repeat until puppy knows what you want. Then start to reward only when puppy moves toward you, then only if the puppy is really close, then if puppy approaches your hand, etc etc. You may want to use something tastier the morel difficult the task. You can do the same systematic desensitization for other things such as allowing you to touch them. Key is to keep it simple and under threshold and ALWAYS positive.


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## mishybubba (Jul 1, 2011)

Just read about clicking, thanks. Wanted to let everyone know something new I saw. Not new like she has never done it, but new like I just noticed it. At the suggestion of a forum member I moved her bowl to the middle of the floor, we make her "sit" and "leave it" when she first gets a little food in her bowl. When that is gone my 4 year old and then 6 year old (and intermixed with the boys when they are uwake) have her do the same while they (at a distance with my supervision) put a hand full of food in her bowl each. After that she is given the rest by me with the same two commands (doing very well with that BTW). While she is eating the rest the girls (and again sometimes boys or my husband and I) tell her she is a "good girl" while walking by and dropping the food. 
I have noticed as long as her tail is waging we are good. However this morning I noticed that when ever anyone, me and my husband included, walks up behind her she sucks her tail in and rotates to put us in front of her. So I started (only me because of her mannerisms) walking up behind her saying "Bailey, good girl" and giving her a treat from behind to hopefully desensitize her of that fear. The people who had her had food down all of the time and had a 15 month old...who knows what went on.


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## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

You could de-sensitise her to that rear approach really well with a clicker. What you really want to do is catch her relaxed behaviour *before* she tucks her tail in and wants to swivel around. If you came up fairly noisily behind her, so she definitely knows you are there, and you estimate where she is likely to start to react badly to your presence there, but before shes does, click and when she turns around, quickly give her the treat. The idea being that the click of the clicker marks the behaviour you want at any given time, and you are saying that when I come up behind you, I want you to be relaxed about it. Over time you would bring the distance at which you click closer. Giving her a treat from behind may work anyway, it is what is called classical conditioning, as opposed to the very popular operant conditioning of the clicker. Dogs usually learn a lot faster with operant though, and it has to benefit of being very flexible.

Your description of her behaviour makes me wonder if she is generally touchy with her rear end.... is she fine with being touched all over? If not there is a lot a clicker could do for you in terms of remedial work. Can you tell I am a big fan of it lol?


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## mishybubba (Jul 1, 2011)

She likes to be pet but not her feet and sometimes not her ears. The ears though could be from living with a fifteen month old. Can I get a clicker at petsmart? Is it something I use forever more or just until Do I still do puppy kindergarten or will that be too overwhelming for her? I think I am getting confused and maybe overwhelmed myself!!!


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## Discoverer (Feb 3, 2011)

mishybubba said:


> She likes to be pet but not her feet and sometimes not her ears. The ears though could be from living with a fifteen month old. Can I get a clicker at petsmart? Is it something I use forever more or just until Do I still do puppy kindergarten or will that be too overwhelming for her? I think I am getting confused and maybe overwhelmed myself!!!


It looks you are on a right path with a food, this is exactly how it should be done with fear aggression, regain her human trust and whenever you need to take any items from her, first offer something in exchange. To answer you questions:
You can get clicker anywhere including petsmart ($5-$10) or even make one by yourself. I personally never used and have no plans to use it, but many people found it helpful, so give a try and see if it works for you and your dog. The length of its usage depends on your situation, you can use it forever if you like, it's just a way to positively reinforce your dog. I would definitely do the puppy classes, as socializing with other people and dogs can really help to overcome her issues. 
Good luck!


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## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

Clicker training is a mentality, it is something you could use for your whole dogs life if needed, or you could just use it to get your pup past these hurdles. However when I say it's a mentality, I mean that many of the ideas you learn when using a clicker you will continue to use as a mental framework for the rest of your time with dogs. It's about the dog working enthusiastically with you towards a goal.

If you were to de-sensitise her to being touched all over with the clicker, I would start in a place she was fine in, and touch and click simultaneously, then give her a treat immediately. Over several short sessions of about 10 minutes, as long as she is not stressing out, slowly start moving your touches towards the areas she usually doesn't like being touched on. The message is the click shows her what is good, so if she is being relaxed and you click her for it while you touch her foot and then feed her a treat, you are saying, behaving nicely while I touch your foot won't make bad things happen in fact you can trust me totally, see, you get a nice treat! You want to be slow and careful with any dog that is having aggression issues of any sort, but this should give you an idea of how the clicker is used in this situation. 

You can use it with nail clippers in the same way, if the dog has a problem with that (and may if she has feet problems). At first clicking and treating for just being near the clippers, over several sessions eventually touching them lightly on her body, click/treating, then eventually on all four feet. Start opening and closing the clippers further back from the dog and click/treating, then bring them closer again until you are doing it right near the foot, and then finally if she is totally fine with it, take a tiny tiny bit off the nail. You can do this to de-sensitise to hair driers.... to really any object the dog may have a problem with. Some people may not hold with clickers and that is of course their choice, but they sure are useful in certain situations.

Definitely take her to puppy classes, socialisation is so very important for a balanced dog. The more people and dogs she meets the better.


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## mishybubba (Jul 1, 2011)

Things are going wonderfully!! She gets so excited when anyone walks up to her bowl. At some point do I start lifting the bowl? What is the next step. The sleeping is going well too, she has been woken from afar and then given a treat. We are now moving closer and no signs. My mom (the voice of reason among other things) keeps reminding us that not only do we not know what she has been through but we took her from the only home she had since she was 6 wks old. She is so much more relaxed and playful in a controlled way!!! And I can't get over how she is changing physically...never had a golden before!!!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I suggest the book Mine! by Jean Donaldson.


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## mishybubba (Jul 1, 2011)

It has been a bumpy road. Bailey has done much better on many things, but gotten worse on others. The others being that she still does not like my daughter. We have resorted to having my daughter in charge of everything and carrying treats with her everywhere. For about a week we were convinced it was best for everyone for her to be in a family with older children (if you could see how happy they make her). And the other night the 3 youngest kids came to me and said they wanted her to go. They didn't want to have to keep feeding her the way we do and being afrais of her, they just wanted a dog like Pompi (our friends golden). Then in the last few days we have noticed a significant change. She goes up to the youngest wagging and wanting to be pet, she is trying desparately to play with the cat, wagging at everyone who stops by. Now the new process is her getting wild. All of the dogs I know can have these outburst in the evenings where they run in cirlces and get very frisky. Bailey is no exception except she keeps escalating and can't calm herself down. And when you make her stop and get her calmed down the minute you let go of her she comes after you with a vengence. SHE IS NOT TRYING to bite you. but playing extremely rough and when she gets her most riled she suddenly starts "play" biting at your face. My husband and I have a hard time containing her she is so wild and fast and crazy. We have removed her to another room a kind of time out. Whats up with this? Is this normal? Any suggestions?


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## mishybubba (Jul 1, 2011)

Anyone have any experience with spaying? Will that calm her a bit? Is that a wives tale?


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

We used to have to get Iorek to another room and close the door for a little bit of calm time when his zoomies escalated too badly. I personally haven't had _any_ luck with spray bottles, loud noises, etc. when it comes to stopping a zoomies spurt (they just make him zoomzoom more) but I do use spray bottles for attention biting/barking. I could see a loud shaker can being more effective than a spray bottle for zoomies... you could always try and see what happens for your dog personally. I've also found it helps if you go into the room they're having calm time in and do a little "go find it" game with some small treats to really get their thinking brain working again and break them out of the gogogogogo! frame of mind. 

Now that Iorek calms himself down though, we just let him zoom =) It makes me happy to see him acting like a dog. 

Keep on pushing through =) How old is she now?


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## mishybubba (Jul 1, 2011)

5 1/2 months almost 6. She is a valentines baby!!!


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## GinnyinPA (Oct 31, 2010)

Have you asked your vet about a good trainer/behaviorist in your area? Hagerstown or Frederick are big enough towns there might be somebody who could come to your house to work with you. 

Class might help, because the training is good for both tiring your dog mentally and creating a stronger bond. It will also give you some options for controlling his behavior - i.e. working on a good down stay or a sit when she starts jumping.

Is she getting much exercise? That can help a lot in reducing frustration energy, which is where the jumping and biting comes up.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

You really do need to see a positive reinforcement trainer or behaviorist who can help you set up a plan for her. At least fir classes, if not for some in home one on ones. 

Goldens at this age are pretty crazy! Cosmo's crazies started at 5 months and now at 15 he has hardly calmed, and that's with a lot of training, so you pup sounds pretty normal in that regard. 

Did you read the book Mine! yet? I would also add to that Control Unleashed.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

What kind of exercise routine do you have in place? It will really help to calm her down if you have a set schedule for her working on obedience and maybe playing fetch or swimming or walking everyday.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Are you sure it's a growl? Max has never growled in his life but he will sound like he does to strangers. He draws out the beginning wwwwwwww of woof. He will get his wwwwww on, a lot of times followed by a wwuh to a woo to a woof. I agree a growl is always a warning but a growly sound is not always a growl.


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