# Where to draw the line?



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I think with a young male like Riley it's to be expected that there comes a point when the older dog says enough, you aren't going to bully me anymore. Gunner has been very patient with him so far, but this is his time to let Riley know he is not going to tolerate being bullied forever. 

I would just watch it for a while and see if they continue to have problems. Gunner has made his point and Riley will respect that, so I would expect to see things settle down. But if Riley continues to push Gunner and cause more fights you will need to intervene. If that happens it would be a good idea to have a very experienced trainer come into your home to observe them and give you some direction for how to work with them. Ultimately YOU are the boss and they both have to follow your rules.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*If Riley's wanting to play and harrasses him a little too much, Gunner just gives him a little snarl and a high-pitched bark, Riley backs off and that's always been the end of it. I've always heard that that's normal, they're working it out amongst themselves and I shouldn't get involved.*

I would make a point to step in long before Gunner has to give the little snarl and bark to back Riley off. Just redirect Riley when you see him just start to be a pest. Let's Gunner know you've got his back and lets Riley know YOU'RE in charge of everything around there.

Hopefully Riley got the message and will give Gunner his space, but if not, you step in to remind him. Doesn't need a harsh correction, just a redirection to something else each time Riley tries to be a pest so that he learns that pestering isn't allowed in your home.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Oh - since you described Riley as a bully, make sure he's not bullying other dogs outside the home (at the park or wherever). Step in there, too.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I would make a point to step in long before Gunner has to give the little snarl and bark to back Riley off. Just redirect Riley when you see him just start to be a pest. Let's Gunner know you've got his back and lets Riley know YOU'RE in charge of everything around there.
> 
> Hopefully Riley got the message and will give Gunner his space, but if not, you step in to remind him. Doesn't need a harsh correction, just a redirection to something else each time Riley tries to be a pest so that he learns that pestering isn't allowed in your home.


I've been keeping a close eye on them and he does seem, at least for now, to have gotten the message. He hasn't been pestering Gunner at all. He'll walk up to him and if Gunner doesn't immediately get up to play, he calmly walks away. Incidentally, mom ran out yesterday and picked up a couple baby gates, just to play it safe. We're going to start separating them when they have to be left home alone. Which, fortunately, isn't very often or for very long (never more than a few hours.) But I don't want to take the chance of them getting irritated with each other when they're alone. 

I'd been stepping in right after Gunner warns him off, but I think that's a good idea - step in a couple seconds earlier and prevent Gunner from being pestered at all. Let him initiate play when he wants to.

About Riley's bullying - I notice that he has to be first through the door (after me) and he'll stand next to Gunner and put his chin over the back of Gunner's neck or try to block Gunner's path if he's walking across the room. Gunner either walks away or turns around and gives Riley kisses when he does this. Should I leave these things to be worked out between the two of them, or should I intervene there, as well? Gunner doesn't seem to be bothered by it at the time, but I wondered if it's this kind of stuff that might be building frustration in him? 

And no - Riley doesn't bully other dogs when we're away from home. He's much less sure of himself. He'll take a defensive posture if another dog approaches _him_ too boldly, but that's the extent of it.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

mylissyk said:


> I would just watch it for a while and see if they continue to have problems. Gunner has made his point and Riley will respect that, so I would expect to see things settle down. But if Riley continues to push Gunner and cause more fights you will need to intervene. If that happens it would be a good idea to have a very experienced trainer come into your home to observe them and give you some direction for how to work with them. Ultimately YOU are the boss and they both have to follow your rules.


So far, so good. If it comes to that, I definitely wouldn't hesitate to get professional help. The only time Gunner seems to get "snitty" is when he's resting or just doesn't want to play and Riley pesters him. (Which he hasn't been doing since the incident.) The rest of the time, he seems to accept Riley's dominance. With me stepping in quicker when need be, like Quiz suggested, hopefully it'll stop altogether and the snittiness won't start coming out in other situations. (~fingers crossed~)


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

It really sounds much less like Riley is the "alpha" than the fact he is comfortable with Gunner and generally knows what he can get away with, like a bratty little brother. Going through the doorway before Gunner really is not a sign of an alpha. Being through the doorway first is not an important thing to a true alpha dog. My opinion is that Gunner has probably always been the alpha, though a benevolent one. Riley pushed it too far and Gunner said ENOUGH. In all caps.

Danny pushed it exactly like that with Jasmine. He could and would and still will take the toy she has or the bone she has. But if she really wants to keep it, she gives him a look and he leaves it alone. He doesn't take it because he is dominant or alpha, he does it because he is the bratty little brother. And generally it doesn't matter to Jasmine. When it does, she tells him. Sometimes loudly and clearly. And there is never any blood drawn. She is my alpha dog, but she knows that it's not necessary to kick butt to keep that position. Most likely Gunner is the same way.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

My Gunner is submissive to Selka in EVERYTHING except going out the door! He pushes past Selka to be first out and it has never bothered Selka.

But Selka let him know when he was a young pup how far he could push him and Gunner never went any farther. He won't try to get his frisbee or bumper back if Selka gets it first. It's funny because Gunner physically is the big macho dog and Selka looks like a prissy girl. : )


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

fostermom said:


> It really sounds much less like Riley is the "alpha" than the fact he is comfortable with Gunner and generally knows what he can get away with, like a bratty little brother. Going through the doorway before Gunner really is not a sign of an alpha. Being through the doorway first is not an important thing to a true alpha dog. My opinion is that Gunner has probably always been the alpha, though a benevolent one. Riley pushed it too far and Gunner said ENOUGH. In all caps.
> 
> Danny pushed it exactly like that with Jasmine. He could and would and still will take the toy she has or the bone she has. But if she really wants to keep it, she gives him a look and he leaves it alone. He doesn't take it because he is dominant or alpha, he does it because he is the bratty little brother. And generally it doesn't matter to Jasmine. When it does, she tells him. Sometimes loudly and clearly. And there is never any blood drawn. She is my alpha dog, but she knows that it's not necessary to kick butt to keep that position. Most likely Gunner is the same way.


That's interesting. I have such a hard time seeing my Gunner as an alpha! 
When it comes to toys, Gunner won't dare take something away from Riley. If he wants it, he'll stand in front of him and yap, but he won't try to take it. Now, if Gunner has something that Riley wants, Riley gets it. He may back off at first, if Gunner gets a little testy with him, but he keeps going back until he gets it. 
Another interesting thing that happens is when Riley is laying by me, or in my lap. If Gunner comes up to us, Riley stiffens and just starts to twitch his lip and Gunner will walk away. I don't stand for it and will call Gunner back over to me when that happens and Riley does accept it at that point. 
And like I mentioned, Riley has a habit of trying to block Gunner's path and standing over him with his chin over the back of Gunner's neck.
All of this has always made me assume that Riley's the boss between the two of them. Do you think it could be more like Riley's just _trying_ to be the boss - that he's challenging Gunner?


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## Celeigh (Nov 29, 2007)

I'm interested to read all the replies - Riley and Fergus are brother's in sibling bullying!

In my siggy picture, Fergus has Lily's ear in his mouth. He always has one of Lily's body parts in his mouth. One of these days, I fear she'll go "doggy postal" and get us both: him for the months of pestering and me for waiting for them to work it out among themselves.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Here in my house Maggie is alpha and the other's know where they stand in the pack. After a few Tiff's they know where the line is. She will give warning to them and they back off ASAP, I only had to step in once. As for toys Maggie shares really well and the others can take them from her and she is ok with it, except she does have 2 favorite toys and WONT share them. I will only bring them out now when we are alone and she and I have our time.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

I've found that with males, once they get a scuffle under their belts, things seem to settle into the "proper" order. Sometimes the scuffle is a bad one, sometimes not...but it seems to be the way they determine "who's on first". 

Around here, the more we interfered, the more unbalanced the pack order became. 

They're able to understand each other MUCH better than we do. They read body language, versus having shouting matches. Sometimes that body language actually gets ignored, and a fight (loud argument) ensues. Once it's over...they're wary around one another for a while, but they've learned what buttons NOT to push, and what line not to cross.

A young bully will usually push his luck and push, and push. IF the older dog does nothing....forever.....then the youngster becomes the leader of the "DOG" pack. He is, in essence, the top dog. (Remember...we are in charge, but there's always a sub-pack under us...they choose their pack leaders....we don't). 

However, if eventually the older dog has reached his limit, and retaliates, the young bully understands that the older dog isn't quite ready to retire his top dog position yet.

Bullies are NOT Alphas and Alphas are not bullies. Alphas are born leaders, and are generally low-keyed, benevolent, and tolerant. They warn by a look (a steely glare), a posture (regal), and sometimes by a very quiet growl. They only fight when pushed...and then they will push back.

In a large dog pack, a bully will be taught a lesson (by being beaten to a pulp by another dog).....and/or banished/ignored by the others until he learns how to behave with proper respect. If he doesn't learn.....as soon as he shows weakness, the others will turn on him, and it won't be pretty. Not the Alpha.....but he won't do anything to stop it. With only two dogs in the pack...well...you saw what happened.

So.....to bring this long-winded post to a close, I'd say what happened is normal given the personalities of the two involved. Your youngster just learned a valuable lesson...and it sounds like he's heeding the message he was sent.

I doubt you'll have much more trouble....maybe a smaller scuffle later on....or maybe never.....but remember, if you constantly interfere, you upset the balance of power, and you'll be setting them up for more (not fewer) battles. If your older dog growls...that's a warning.....and if you tell him to stop.....you're not allowing him, in essence, to say "cut it out". A growl is a growl........and they do it for a reason. Just watch....and see if the youngster defers. As long as he does, all is well.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I'd work on the busting through doors things not so much b/c I think it's an attempt to overpower Riley, b/c I doubt that's it... and if Riley doesn't think getting through the door first is a big deal, then it won't ever cause a problem between them. However, it sounds like a rude and pushy behavior and I'd be trying to mitigate as many of those as possible. I would aim for sit stays at doors and the ability to release the dogs through the door by name one at a time. Once that's taught, you can call Gunner through first and then Riley so Riley has to work on self control.

If you're sitting with Riley and Gunner walks over and Riley growls, I'd immediately get up and storm off like you're super disgusted. If Gunnar is choosing to leave, I wouldn't interfere with what he's comfortable with, but you can still let Riley know he's outta line by using a "you guard it, you lose it" tactic, which teaches him that guarding can backfire and what he tried to protect will actually leave him in an annoyed manner.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Ok, I've read this thread right through - took some doing! What Ardeagold said I totally agree with, and also with a lot of the other advice given. Our old golden Spud, would literally pin another younger dog to the floor if they bugged him and overstepped the mark. Crutially, he never harmed a hair on their head or ever was involved in a fight, he was just a dominant dog. After all, they can't speak, but their body language speaks volumes to their own kind, and we can learn what it means, which helps us to understand them a whole lot more.

I would say that as long as Riley backs down, Gunner will do nothing more than flex his dominancy muscle every now and again. He probably feels this is now the time as Riley is in full flow of adolescence. Even if it looks particularly violent, as long as they're not both going for it, the worst that will happen is that Riley will end up being pinned to the floor and not let up until Gunner decides. I've seen this happen more than once, and no blood has ever been spilt, it's their way of sorting it out between themselves.

With our two new younger dogs, the younger bitch Izzie is definitely the dominant one, probably because Obi is such a pushover. This does transfer into the outside world although she's fine with all dogs, I just have to watch out for younger ones who are pushy... Izzie will put them in their plae, Obi just sees all dogs, young and old as potential playmates. 

I went for a walk a couple of weeks ago with a friend and her 8 month lab bitch. All was fine until the lab went to get Izzie's ball, Izzie just ran at her and growled, chased her away from it. Anyway, we both jumped and crutially didn't react ourselves, carrying on the walk. I couldn't believe it however, because that black lab followed Izzie and became her shadow for the whole of the rest of the walk. Izzie didn't seem to bear any grudges either and as long as the other dog was happy to 'follow' she was happy to lead. 

I know it's a different situation when this is happening in your own house, but you need to be able to leave them together, because can you imagine the panic if you realised you'd gone out and left them together! Obviously, if they're taking chunks out of each other, that's time for intervention, but I'd be very surprised if that ever happened. Sounds like the pushy puppy has finally been put in his place, and it'll probably stay that way.

Good luck, I'm sure they'll get over this little blip and live happily ever after


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Celeigh said:


> In my siggy picture, Fergus has Lily's ear in his mouth. He always has one of Lily's body parts in his mouth.


Oh yes, the body parts in their mouth! Riley does it, too. His favorite thing to do is to run after Gunner when Gunner's chasing his ball, grab ahold of his tail and come happily running back alongside Gunner with his tail in his mouth. It's pretty comical to watch, really, and it's never seemed to annoy Gunner in the least, so I've let them have at it. (Honestly, Gunner is so focused when he's fetching, I doubt he even notices! lol)

_Bullies are NOT Alphas and Alphas are not bullies. Alphas are born leaders, and are generally low-keyed, benevolent, and tolerant. They warn by a look (a steely glare), a posture (regal), and sometimes by a very quiet growl. They only fight when pushed...and then they will push back._

That really does sound like my Gunner. 99% of the time he's _very_ mild-mannered and extremely tolerant. In every situation - not just with Riley. He doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body and he's never been one to bully. He really has the best temperament of any dog I've ever had!
I guess I've been looking at this the wrong way. I've never thought of Gunner as an alpha because I've always seen him as such a big baby. I think I've mistaken his patience and tolerance as a sort of weakness, or as a sign that he's a pushover. I guess my big 'mama's boy' might just be an alpha afterall.

_I doubt you'll have much more trouble....maybe a smaller scuffle later on....or maybe never.....but remember, if you constantly interfere, you upset the balance of power, and you'll be setting them up for more (not fewer) battles._

That's what I'd always heard, and that's why I figured I'd better get some advice before I get too involved, do the wrong thing and end up making matters worse! 

_I would aim for sit stays at doors and the ability to release the dogs through the door by name one at a time. Once that's taught, you can call Gunner through first and then Riley so Riley has to work on self control._

We've actually started working on that when we're coming in from outside. I was afraid they'd trip each other up and get hurt, trying to rush up the steps and get through the door. We've made some progress. Gunner stands patiently at the door and I have Riley sit and wait until Gunner's in the house before I let him go. I can work on carrying that over into the house, as well.

_I know it's a different situation when this is happening in your own house, but you need to be able to leave them together, because can you imagine the panic if you realised you'd gone out and left them together! _

Ha - I'm one of those people that checks and double-checks everything I need to think about before I leave the house. (Then I usually come back in because I don't remember double-checking something!) So I can't see how I'd go off and forget about the boys. But yeah, I know what you mean. I need to trust them together. Seperating them isn't a solution - I was looking at it as more of a temporary precaution. 
We did, however, leave them alone together yesterday, for a short while. They've been so well-behaved together, we felt confident enough in doing it. And they were fine. 

I really do think that Riley has gotten the message. He's much less inclined to pester Gunner and the couple times that he has (when I couldn't get there in time to prevent it) Gunner has been more hesitant to get snitty with Riley. Instead of giving him that high-pitched 'brat bark', he just turns his head away. And Riley walks away. For now, anyway! With this little knucklehead, I'm sure he'll need a reminder every now and then! :

Thanks for the advice, everyone!!


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