# Getting dogs to pick up birds!



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I've never had this problem, but I have friends that do. Can you all give me suggestions for getting a dog or pup to pick up a bird? Both of the dogs I'm training with are field types that I would never have guessed would be a problem. I'm not a trainer we just throw for each other in the evenings. I've tried pigeons and ducks, frozen and thawed. Only with a hold command can we put a duck or pigeon in their mouths. Neither dog has completed forced fetch. Both will retrieve bumpers all day without a problem. They have me stumped since I've never had this problem. We've tried waving them near the ground to give them a little flying motion and throwing very short distances. You can get a bit of excitement out of them and a look of interest. The dogs get close, but right before they touch them with their mouths, they withdraw. I'm stumped!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Force fetch. 

If a dog doesn't complete a retrieve with a dumbbell, we go back to basics and train the dog to take/hold/give. You don't keep throwing things out there if the retrieve is broken.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Gosh no, these dogs are just fine retrieving with bumpers. No problem there. It's the birds that they don't want to pick up. So retrieving isn't the issue, it's the birds that are. One dog is 3 yrs old, one is 14 months.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

But it's not that different than dogs who will retrieve sticks, toys, garbage.... anything but dumbbells. And they have to be taught to take the dumbbells in their mouths, hold them, walk with them in their mouths, and retrieve them. 

If the dogs are not retrieving something they've been sent to retrieve, then their retrieve is broken and the trainers need to take a step back and work on basics, right?

*** I'm not really somebody who likes the idea of pinching my dogs ears or anything like that if they do not take something in their mouth that they are supposed to. But there has to be some kind of correction if the dog does not pick something up or keep it in their mouth. That part of force fetch makes sense to me. And this is where it's probably going to fix the problem for your friends. If the dogs have no desire to pick something up in their mouths, you have to train them to do so.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I know someone who doesn't force fetch all of their dogs for field, but did FF one dog that would pick up bumpers but not birds.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

not the answer you want to hear, but force fetch is the answer as others have said. It's probably better called "compulsory retrieve" rather than force fetch. Picking up something is not a matter of choice, if the dog was told to get it, the dog needs to get it whether it's a bird, a TV remote, a shoe, whatever.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I know what you mean. FF is something I was hoping the owners could avoid this early in the training. The 3 yr old has his CDX and comes from parents that run field trials. I was very sad to see him turn up his nose at birds. I thought I could entice him over time, but after several sessions, he's like no not really interested. The girl is 14 months, with an AFC dad and and FC mom, I just thought it would be automatic. Who would have thought that those dogs wouldn't pick up a bird, but my little show puppy can't get enough of birds? Thanks for your thoughts.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

The only thing that I can think of that helped a little was a wing on a bumper but FF is the way we did it too


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

MOP,
Thanks I was wondering about the wing on the bumper. So when she finally started picking up ducks, was she really into it? I mean is their joy, or is she doing it to please you? 

FF was the only way we got Lucy to pick up anything that wasn't a duck. Little pistol decided she only wanted birds and refused bumpers, sticks and balls. FF was the only way. I never knew a dog would turn their nose up at everything but ducks.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Our field pro says once you've had steak, why would you want TV dinners?? :



Alaska7133 said:


> MOP,
> I never knew a dog would turn their nose up at everything but ducks.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Alaska7133 said:


> The 3 yr old has his CDX and comes from parents that run field trials. I was very sad to see him turn up his nose at birds. I thought I could entice him over time, but after several sessions, he's like no not really interested. The girl is 14 months, with an AFC dad and and FC mom, I just thought it would be automatic.


Stacey, it's not always just pedigree or the fault of the breeders. 

Somebody I train with (she breeds Gordons) was pulling her hair out and "panicking" because she agreed to put a basic obedience title and basic hunt test title on a dog she bred for the owner. This dog is a grand champion and the owner wants at least a CD and a JH on him. 

This lady is a fabulous trainer and I know she easily puts JH's on her dogs who are titled through UD and also easily get the CH's. 

She was pulling her hair out because the owner of the dog entered the dog in a weekend of shows with the idea of quickly getting the CD on and I think did something similar with field tests. 

And this dog knows nothing. There was no regular obedience training leading up to this point, and Barb said that while the dog had been the birdiest puppy of the litter when she let him go to this lady, the dog has completely lost all of that and has zero drive now. With the obedience she was cringing because she doesn't enter her own dogs until they are ready to win. And this is somebody who easily gets 199 scores in obedience and had to strategize on how to keep her youngest dog from getting a HIT in obedience so the dog could be shown in novice at the breed specialty. She doesn't rush dogs into the show ring and she doesn't rush them up to the next level before they are ready. 

So training and exposure has a huge role in making the dogs live up to their bloodlines and potential.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I had that with both my girls. I ran like a maniac all over my yard with a duck in my hand flapping it all over the place and a duck call in my mouth and made them chase me until they took it out of my hand. Then started short distance throws. Then used one against the other. Threw the bird right next to the kennel where the other was sitting and got her all jealous that the sister got a chance to retrieve. 
I did it in familiar places like the back yard before I would go in the field with other dogs.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> I had that with both my girls. I ran like a maniac all over my yard with a duck in my hand flapping it all over the place and a duck call in my mouth and made them chase me until they took it out of my hand. Then started short distance throws. Then used one against the other. Threw the bird right next to the kennel where the other was sitting and got her all jealous that the sister got a chance to retrieve.
> I did it in familiar places like the back yard before I would go in the field with other dogs.


I truly wish you had the video of this. At least the first part. I'm sure it would be a great laugh--for you and all of us.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Gwen_Dandridge said:


> I truly wish you had the video of this. At least the first part. I'm sure it would be a great laugh--for you and all of us.


I am sure my neighbors have one in case they want to send me to the Cuckoo hospital.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Also, do the dogs like to swim? The trainer at one group that we train with got Darcy to retrieve in the water first before she retrieved the bird on land. Rose was in heat at the time so she never got a chance to retrieve a bird in water. 

BTW - that is where we pretty much stopped with the birds due to weather, Rose's surgery and then sickness. We will try this evening with a bird we brought back from a hunt test we volunteered to work. That is if I can still move. Good sign, they both went bananas over the bag with the duck in it and I had to hide it since Rose jumped to get the box I placed it in.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Have they been exposed to live birds? That's the only other suggestion I have. But yeah, force fetch.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

No neither have had live birds. I do have a friend with live pigeons that uses them for that purpose. She had my Lucy retrieve a few times with the live birds. I've heard it can help their apprehension with picking up a bird. With the boy after 3 years of telling him leave it, and not letting him pick up dead things, we are going against some of his training I think.

Claudia,
I think your idea of letting him see other dogs retrieve birds might help. Get that desire going. The ground is super frozen right now, so we can't set up holding blind and keep dogs on the field. We keep the dogs in the cars. We don't have open water and won't for awhile yet. So water retrieves our out. But, I do believe it heightens a dog's interest in retrieving birds. Then there's always don't feed them that morning so they are hungry.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

So far so good with my girls and birds. This was a fresh shot bird from this morning. Both of them took it, not the same energy coming back with the bird as opposed to the bumpers (more like what is this smell in my nose?) Darcy refused to pick up the bumpers after a couple bird retrieves. She got to the bumper and she went nope, this is not what I was smelling before. So I had to tell her to take it couple times and Hallelujah, she did. 

If you do not have a kennel outdoor, use a crate. Just throw the bird close enough to the crate so the dog can smell it and see it picked up by another dog. Take the dog out and do a small retrieve. 

If you put the bird in its mouth does he hold it? Instead of force fetch you can use attrition, have his behind sit, take the bird with help, take the bird without help, take the bird as you walk, take the bird from the ground. Happy Happy Chirpy Jumpy after each success.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

The first time Molly picked up a duck was in the water, too. She wasn't too sure about it on land so the guy helping me threw it in the water and she got it. Then she thought it was a toy. It was her first day out. 

One time, our pro had a live shackled duck, a dead duck, and a bumper for Molly. He threw the live duck, which Molly enthusiastically retrieved. Then, he threw the dead duck and she retrieved it happily. Lastly, he threw the bumper, which Molly picked up, immediately spat back out, and _started hunting_, as if she would not believe she got a bumper this time. That was the only time she didn't want to pick up a bumper (besides the one time I unknowingly put the pile of bumpers on top of a pile of dog poop).


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I started archer off with live pigeons. It was the most cruel thing I've ever done but it worked wonderfully. He'd only seen bumpers before that. We started at about 4 or 5 months and used the pigeons on that one occasion. Then we went back to bumpers until upland hunting season at 7 months old.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Some dogs just don't realize they're supposed to pick the birds up. They are interested but have no idea. You have to spend a lot of time putting the bird in their mouth for them and praising like crazy when they are holding it. Playing tug with the bird, walking them forward a few steps and holding their mouth closed over the bird, etc. They just need a lot of exposure. It can take more than one or two times. You have to do a lot of cheerleading. Often if they start experimenting and trying to grab it by the head or feathers, go ahead and have someone throw a bird from 20-30 yards away, sometimes they get out there and are a little insecure and want to get something and bring it back to Mom and they will try a little harder to pick up the bird. Frankly I've never seen a dog go nuts and grab a live bird if they aren't interested in a dead one -- but then again I've never had to try.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Oh, my Conner had no interest in retrieving ANYTHING. Especially icky dead birds. Then one day he got to chase down a clipped pigeon, and something just clicked in his head and he couldn't wait to get to pick up birds!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

There was a photographer that captured the moment


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

And this was later the same day


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I know someone who doesn't force fetch all of their dogs for field, but did FF one dog that would pick up bumpers but not birds.


One exception, assuming this dog was property FF's, does not negate the fact that FF is a fundamental requirement for a well trained hunting retriever.

Their are always exceptions, but those outliers do not change this training process


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

goldlover68 said:


> One exception, assuming this dog was property FF's, does not negate the fact that FF is a fundamental requirement for a well trained hunting retriever.
> 
> Their are always exceptions, but those outliers do not change this training process



*I* absolutely agree with you. I didn't mean to imply that FF is not an important or necessary part of field work. 

It was this person's personal choice to not FF. I only mentioned it to make a point that FF was the only thing they could for their dog that won't pick up birds, since OP was reluctant to recommend FF at this point. I personally will always FF for field.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I think the person with the 3 yr old male has no intention to go beyond a junior hunt title. Which normally it seems if people want to go beyond junior hunt they have to introduce forced fetch. I was hoping he would retrieve the birds with no problem and the owner wouldn't have to go the FF route. I think you all have given me some good ideas for training this week and see if we can get him excited about picking up a bird. The other girl that is 14 months old will be FF. So that will be taken care of.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Okay, your friend must have Labs. 
(Is it against the rules to help Lab people on this board? JUST KIDDING!!!)

Claudia has explained the best methods that I have used or heard about ... just act crazy, get the dog to act crazy and get it super-excited, then toss the duck a few feet. Forget all about obedience ... not even sit. 
It's worth trying to start out with pigeons, but even though the dog may pick up a pigeon or a pheasant or a quail, doesn't mean that it will pick up a duck (I had a dog with duck phobia ... but it would pick up the listed feathered friends just fine).
Also, make sure that it's the best duck you can find.
I have heard of folks turning their dogs off of ducks by "no-ing" off of ducks at city parks ... the dogs generalized.
And I'd do it on land, so your "hard water" won't be a factor.
FTGoldens


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Thanks FT. These are actually both goldens. I know the breeders both dogs came from and they were both exposed to birds as puppies. But then puppies go through their early years hearing us say NO LEAVE IT. And they do learn that. So maybe it's part of it. I will try the silliness!


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Claudia M said:


> I am sure my neighbors have one in case they want to send me to the Cuckoo hospital.


Would have been a great 'training video'.....made me LOL....


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Alaska7133 said:


> Thanks FT. These are actually both goldens. I know the breeders both dogs came from and they were both exposed to birds as puppies. But then puppies go through their early years hearing us say NO LEAVE IT. And they do learn that. So maybe it's part of it. I will try the silliness!


Just a quick comment...I would avoid using pigeon as these birds typically are not best for a dog that is not real birdy. Like, dove, they have very small feathers that comes off easily in the dogs mouth, dogs do not like it. Ducks, Pheasants, and Quail do not drop these feathers when fetched.

OK to start using pigeon after the dog is on birds regularly....


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Last night got together with the 3 ry old boy. We got him to pick up birds. First I tried getting crazy and silly to try to get him interested. All he would do was put a wing in his mouth and drag it around. I think he just didn't know what he was supposed to do. So I brought Lucy out. Pigeons are her most favorite bird in the world! She came out of th car and started popping her jaws with excitement. I had Lucy on my left side and the boy on my right. I had the owner hold his leash. I took the pigeon and threw it in front of me 5 or 6 feet and let Lucy leap on the bird and return to my side. She does it with total love for birds. I threw it for her 5 times or so. With each throw the boy got more and more interested. So the last throw we sent him instead. Lucy about lost her mind with another dog so close taking her bird. The boy took the bird and started to walk away with it. His tail was wagging. He finally got it! It wasn't jealousy, it was I think he didn't know what the point of it was. So I put Lucy away and we did some retrieves with the boy. He quickly became a pain and wanted to go off with the bird, so we put him on a long line. He definitely was thinking about eating the bird! Progress!


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Alaska7133....now your thinking like a bird dog! Keep it all going, make it fun, and away you go.....

Good Luck!


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Alaska7133 said:


> Thanks FT. These are actually both goldens. I know the breeders both dogs came from and they were both exposed to birds as puppies. But then puppies go through their early years hearing us say NO LEAVE IT. And they do learn that. So maybe it's part of it. I will try the silliness!


 
I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. Most owners will scold dogs for approaching, rolling on, or eating anything dead. Then they want the dog to pick up a dead bird and carry it?!?!?! No wonder the dog is confused. 

While FF will solve it, both of these dogs are beyond the age where it is easy to activate that prey drive. I just introduced a live pigeon yesterday with a 10 week old pup and a 14 week old pup. It is like seeing the light bulb go on with both. Thought we would have to get the jaws of life to remove the (now dead) pigeon from the 14 week old. Good thing I had the long line on her because she thought the game was 'Keep It'.

The following has worked at our club with dogs where the owner did not want to do ff. Have each dog watch a number of easy retrieves with a live bird in the shortest grass by a very soft mouth dog. Encourage some excitement as the dog watchs. Keep them close to the action and after the third or fourth throw give the dog a turn. Release the dog before the bird hits the gound. While this does not always work - I have seen it get an older pup retrieving birds that he previously refused.

Good Luck


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

FTGoldens said:


> Okay, your friend must have Labs.
> (Is it against the rules to help Lab people on this board? JUST KIDDING!!!)
> 
> Claudia has explained the best methods that I have used or heard about ... just act crazy, get the dog to act crazy and get it super-excited, then toss the duck a few feet. Forget all about obedience ... not even sit.
> ...


I totally agree. In fact, my friend owns the dog that was in the movie THE NANNY DIARIES. This dog loves to retrieve but won't go near birds. He thinks it's because it was filmed as a puppy on I think it was Fire Island. Chasing birds would have been a distraction so it was felt that she was "no'd" off birds.

Anyway, shackle a pigeon and let it loose with the dog. No obedience and let the dog have at it. Warning: Don't interfere with the dog. Also the dog may kill it. Don't start yelling at the dog. You are trying to wake up some instinct in the dog. And no crying for the poor pigeons. They are rats with wings.


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## tpd5 (Nov 7, 2013)

Love the live pigeon idea. 

My dog had one at 10 weeks and he killed pretty quickly. At first I was all worried about hard mouth, etc. but that has never been an issue. A few months later he was delivering live chukars to hand. I will never forget the look in his eyes when he saw me toss that live bird out.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

George and Leslie, you are right! Live pigeons are necessary. Last summer Lucy's mom refused to pick up a dying cripple at a hunt test. So a friend and I got Lucy out with a live pigeon with its wing tied. Lucy retrieved it 3 times without getting it wet from her mouth. She was quick to snatch and quick to bring it back. But I think if you don't do it before a hunt test and your dog is in that situation, you could have a problem. And yes George I agree, they are flying rats. 

It is always interesting to me how breeding effects birdiness and retrieving ability. Or in some cases has little effect. I'm happy I didn't have to FF Lucy and Reilly to pick up birds. I like that it is something I didn't have to force.


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