# Stand or kneel when showing your dog?



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Any opinions out there? I've seen both with goldens. I imagine some of it depends on the judge and where they place themselves. Sometimes I think I connect better if I'm lower. Last cluster I just stood and free stacked and didn't adjust with my hands. I also didn't bait, just waved a few feathers. We beat some pros, but didn't take first or reserve. I don't know which way to go. Our next cluster is outdoors, so that adds another factor. It might be rainy. It will be on grass. I might go back to baiting, Lucy almost got too over the top with the feathers, I don't want her trying to aggressively take them from my hands.

So which do you prefer and why?


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I don't show my dogs often, but when I do, which I do depends on the dog. Gibbs, for instance, is plug and play. I barely even touch him. Sometimes I just walk him into a free stack and pick up his collar under his ears to make a nice line and stand there trying to exude the attitude, "Come admire this great work of art."

With Ziva, I kneel. It's the only way I can control her. I have to get a good grip on her head, or there's no telling what she's going to do. Control the head, control the dog, right? And with Ziva, it's kind of like riding a bull in a rodeo, so I just try to hang on for the full eight seconds. 

So, I guess the answer is that if I can get away with standing, I do. If I need more control, I kneel.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I think it really depends. I do both. I like picking up the tail to show off topline a little more. Do you have pictures of both ways? I think it depends on the dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Practice both ways - know what it accomplishes (either way) for your dog. 

*** I stand if the class is moving fast, if Bertie's fidgeting or not baiting well, if I want to be able to pick up the tail and show it when the judge is looking, etc. 

I kneel if it's a bigger class and there is time, Bertie's stacking well, and I know all I really need to focus on is expression and head.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I have never kneeled so I don't have pictures. There is a fun match this weekend outdoors, so I think I'll try the kneeling. I probably will be the only golden, so I might have a little more time to work it out. Hope it's a judge I can have a conversation with while I'm doing it. Miss Lucy is just a tiny girl, very athletic, with little coat. She's very cute though, so I'm hoping to catch the eye of a judge.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

FWIW, I've never seen a professional handler (in this area) kneeling while showing a Golden.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I looked at some of the video I shot at golden national last year. There were a few handlers that kneeled, but not a lot. I dug up a couple of photos of Lucy with a pro at a show n go with the pro kneeling, which is where I got the idea. Lucy is on the left in the first photo, it was taken a year ago. The second photo is Lucy's breeder with Lucy's mom on the right. So I don't know. My goal would only be to show her in the best light. In the photo below, she actually had more coat back then, than she does now since it's summer.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

One handler we have used kneels when showing. I do think it looks different though. Although if the dog is on the smaller side and the handler is taller I would think it makes sense to do it so the dog doesn't look out of proportion. 

For me, as a total novice, I think it depends on the dog and the amount of control in the stack. For me kneeling gives more control and that is what I used with Smooch (who I have shown the most myself) because she was a little fidgety in her stack. Although now that she has been trained well by her pro, when I show her again down the road as a special (after she gets that last major!!!!) I doubt I will need to do that. She is push button now, or as I call her "The Smoochie-Bot" haha


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

^ That is generally what I do if I kneel. I know he will look at me and it's the alternative to standing in front of him (which people do too). I want to get his head set so his nose is not pointing up while looking at me. 

Early on though I was kneeling at his side and giving him belly scritches or touching up on his belly to keep him standing instead of sitting - at least until he learned not to sit. I agree from that stance - it actually is helpful to be kneeling at the side.


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## Roushbabe (Feb 20, 2011)

I think it does depend on every dog, but I also do believe that kneeling is a MUST for puppies just because of their small size and they need a lot of 'touching' to help them stand still or not sit lol. 

I'm a novice at handling and I still do kneel, not sure if it's just a comfort thing for me and being there just in case I need to fix a foot quickly or not. I do see a mixture of professionals kneel and stand down here too.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

This is what I do with my bitch if the judge is looking back over the line up. But... I do not always do this! She is just easy to do it with 

Btw: this bitch has coat... For her! The judge should see past the coat. She just went RWB out of the 12-18 class.

I used to care more about coat... But it is a lost cause with her! Lol


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Tito shows lovely if you stand directly well behind him, pull back and up on the lead, and hold his tail straight out. He looks stunning. But it's pretty hard for me to accomplish correctly! Also tends to freak out the handler behind you  .


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I'm there on the coat. Here's a photo from last weekend. I didn't realize at the time she was standing on a hill, I also didn't have good leash placement, but no mirror to practice either. She has no coat, which is great for our field events, but not so good in the show ring. Her mom doesn't have a great deal of coat either.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

When was her last heat? How old is she now? She is a cute bitch, some just mature faster than others.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Last heat ended June 4. She turned 2 on June 10. Her mom is a Pebwin which are slow maturing lines. Her mom finished at 3-1/2 yrs old after having a litter. Lucy's sister finished at our March cluster, she's much more like their dad. But yes I agree Lucy is slow to mature and looks a lot like a puppy. In the meantime we'll just keep chasing birds. She's super athletic and is really fun to watch. Around the ring I've been told to speed it up and go a lot faster to see her movement. It's so hard in smaller rings to do that.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

It really helps if the person in front of you is frantically waving their bait around and your dog just stands like a little statue staring at it and you can kneel and hold the tail and look like a real genius


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> View attachment 404929
> 
> 
> It really helps if the person in front of you is frantically waving their bait around and your dog just stands like a little statue staring at it and you can kneel and hold the tail and look like a real genius



I did good then!! Lol


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

LOL Anney.


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## luvgld7 (Jan 23, 2008)

Alaska writes: "I looked at some of the video I shot at golden national last year. There were a few handlers that kneeled, but not a lot"
______________________________________________________

Alaska, in TX I have seen the pros do both. I bought the DVD from the National last year of all the class boys up to WD (and have watched it many, many, many times, lol) and you do see both. The only thing if you choose to kneel: a short skirt is not your friend. The video guys who produced the DVD last year definitely did some editing on some of the handlers who forgot that.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Ann,
There are a lot of pictures online of what not to wear at a dog show! I have seen some stuff that would make you blush. I think women need to think about whether they are going on a date or showing a dog and trying to disappear. 

We have a fun match tomorrow outdoors in a football field. I'm going to try out my skirt, show shoes, and kneel. Not sure if I'll be comfortable enough, I broke the head of my femur while skiing 20 years ago, and it's still not quite right. But I want Lucy to show well, so I'm going to try it. I just want my movements to look smooth and not cluttered.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

You know, something to think about, yes a handler should "disappear" and let the dog shine for itself but what you wear can have a big impact on how well you stand out. I used to always wear a black or otherwise dark suit to give my dog a nice backdrop to stand out against. Then one day my dog show BFF said, I have something to tell you and I hope you won't take it the wrong way : you absolutely disappear when you wear all black. Every golden is gold, how can the judge find you in a lineup if you blend in? Since then I've worn a bright colored top and if you watch a big ring full of handlers it DOES help you find and remember the dog if the handler is wearing something that sets them apart from everyone else. Now I'm not talking tye-dye mumuu or Kentucky Derby headdress, but a bright color can go a long way in keeping the judge's attention and reminding him where to find that great dog he just went over


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

It's definitely something to consider in a ring with 25 dogs. Thankfully our shows are quite small. We'll only have 5-7 bitches in the classes next weekend depending on the day. Tonya Struble comes up a lot, she's been a pro for a long time. So I tend to watch what she wears. She's a lot of times in a blue suit with white embroidery or a brown/silver shiny fabric suit. Definitely not black. So I had another friend that shows all over the US tell me at the last show to wear a suit that is more fitted than loose. I had worn a Chinese jacket last time. She told me the jacket was wrong and hung loose and looked bad. This person wears a lot of pink with her goldens. Not a color I would think would work, but she's finished a huge amount of dogs.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> You know, something to think about, yes a handler should "disappear" and let the dog shine for itself but what you wear can have a big impact on how well you stand out. I used to always wear a black or otherwise dark suit to give my dog a nice backdrop to stand out against. Then one day my dog show BFF said, I have something to tell you and I hope you won't take it the wrong way : you absolutely disappear when you wear all black. Every golden is gold, how can the judge find you in a lineup if you blend in? Since then I've worn a bright colored top and if you watch a big ring full of handlers it DOES help you find and remember the dog if the handler is wearing something that sets them apart from everyone else. Now I'm not talking tye-dye mumuu or Kentucky Derby headdress, but a bright color can go a long way in keeping the judge's attention and reminding him where to find that great dog he just went over


To this - I just have to say I've been hunting the last couple days for a bright red short sleeved jacket for exactly this reason.  

I'm more a pretty/relaxed top type person, but the fitted suits that I've seen stand out quite a lot more.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Don't get RED ===== 2nd place!!! 

I love the color red but refuse to wear it at dog shows!!!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

LOL.... probably just as well, since I can't find any.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I like summer dresses too for the summer!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Pro handlers with Gibbs:

Rebecca Heiman (wearing gray stripes):

Judge approaches









Judge moves to rear









Robert Scott (wearing a black suit with his trademark ball cap):

Judge approaching









Judge moves to rear









Casandra Clark (wearing tan and brown):

Judge's first walk of the line









Judge's second approach for exam









Tara Schultz (wearing black and white):

First stack









Stack after all dogs have gaited









Bruce Schultz (wearing a black suit):

Pretty much all the time









So, I'd say that every pro handler I've ever used has kneeled at some point. The sole exception appears to be Bruce Schultz. I have never seen him kneel. And he is quite tall.

Now that I think of it, I kneel in front of Gibbs during the judge's exam, standing when the judge examines the head, and then kneeling after he/she finishes with the head and moves to the body. As for my experiences, it seems like most handlers kneel, all at different times.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Thank you Dana! Good photos to show what's happening!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I still love that dress of Rebecca's. So cute.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@Dana..... which handler are you currently using with him? Tara and Bruce looked like they got the best stacks with him.... or was that just my eyes? 

Or I guess maybe what I was seeing at a glance was Gibbs leaning back a little when the handlers kneeled - at least in those pics.... probably when he was younger.... ?

See his front legs?




















I was thinking about this thread today as we did a drop in handling class. It was a last minute decision and I totally forgot my conformation lead/chain were still in my toolbox at home. 

So used my regular "fitted" choke chain and training leash (2.5 foot well worn and comfortable leather leash). 

I just contacted my mentor raving about the experience and scratching my head about what to do at our next show, because I actually had good enough control of Bertie's head and getting him to set his head while I stacked him, that I was able to step back and hold up his tail and basically show an ideal picture of my dog. 

Normally, I have to stay up by his head or do that kneeling thing that I suggested while getting his head right. Heck, I could have kneeled at his side and kept a good stack without being in front of him! That was something.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

One of our 13 year old JR handlers owns a small, feminine golden bitch at the very bottom of the standard, and she will try to line up just a footstep to the inside of the line of dogs when showing against adults in regular classes; she will kneel bc she is a very tall girl and only makes the bitch look tinier. However, when the same JR showed my dog Copley on the large side of the standard, she will be a whisper to the right/ outside of the line, and stand tall to make the picture for the judge. . Kneeling can be useful in a practical sense if the dog is on the small/large end of the standard, and the handler contrasts. A big guy showing a dog barely in standard can just exacerbate that; with a petite handler, the picture she makes in showing a dog squarely on the big side of the standard can just highlight that.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Jill, you are so right! How many times have you seen a pro get an average dog all the way to WB or WD with just great handling and knowing how to show the dog off to the best advantage. I hadn't thought of being to one or the other side of the line during the line up, but that makes sense.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Alaska7133 said:


> Jill, you are so right! How many times have you seen a pro get an average dog all the way to WB or WD with just great handling and knowing how to show the dog off to the best advantage. I hadn't thought of being to one or the other side of the line during the line up, but that makes sense.


You bet, and not just pros but owner handlers who have been doing it a long time. Malcolm Gladwell says to do something at its most perfect, shoot for 10,000 hours of practice. If our JR handler continues to show dogs, maybe she will have 40 years of experience doing so by age 53. I think it mainly has to do with practice, practice, practice like most sports, as well as some innate talent on the handler's side of the team to present a dog at his or her very bestest. Lots of owner handlers beat the pants off the pros, but they are also are in some cases just as experienced.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Megora said:


> @Dana..... which handler are you currently using with him? Tara and Bruce looked like they got the best stacks with him.... or was that just my eyes?
> 
> Or I guess maybe what I was seeing at a glance was Gibbs leaning back a little when the handlers kneeled - at least in those pics.... probably when he was younger.... ?


We are using Bruce and Tara Schultz on both our show dogs right now, and probably forever. They are wonderful people and great handlers, and they show Gibbs so well. Plus, he thinks of them as part of his pack.  But all his handlers have been wonderful. I really liked the job Rebecca Heimann did, but just as Gibbs started showing she moved to the east coast and we had to find someone else.

I think the reason for the leaning back was that Gibbs was just a puppy in all those photos, and was anticipating the judge's approach, something that made him a little excited and perhaps a little nervous. Stuff like that is why we showed him once a month when he was young, just to train him and get his head in the game. And it has paid off. Nowadays, at 18 months old, Gibbs is pretty bullet-proof. He knows what his job is, knows what to do. Still, Bruce and Tara show him very, very well. As Jill alluded to, Gibbs has his job down, but the Schultzes know how to make him look his best.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I think the reason for the leaning back was that Gibbs was just a puppy in all those photos, and was anticipating the judge's approach, something that made him a little excited and perhaps a little nervous.


 I agree - that's why I amended my original comment and added he probably more mature and show proofed in the last couple pictures. I know that as they get more experience in the show ring, it gets a lot easier to set them up. I've seen that with my own dog. He used to post like that, especially when I kneeled next to him. Would be so bad I had one of my instructors tell me to keep on my feet because my kneeling was causing a little bit of that. And what it does is it makes the dog's back go slanted. <- That's why I noticed immediately what was going on in those pics you shared.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Megora said:


> And what it does is it makes the dog's back go slanted. <- That's why I noticed immediately what was going on in those pics you shared.


You know, Gibbs just has a slanted top line, which is within the standard, but it's something I'd change. Even when he stands well, as an adult, his top line is slanted.



















My puppy, OTOH, has the kind of top line I like.










Gibbs will just never have that kind of top line. It slants no matter how he is stacked. Believe me, I've tried!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hi Dana, I don't think Gibbs has a particularly sloping topline, or rather, it is very minor if so. But I am quite positive a sloping topline is not in our standard :

"*Back line* -- strong and level from withers to slightly sloping croup, whether standing or moving. Sloping back line, roach or sway back, flat or steep croup to be faulted."


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

At last weekend's shows, I kneeled with Lucy. I think it really helped. It also helped that she was in coat. I have to say it "I beat Tonya"! What an amazing thing to beat a pro like that. So the best placement I had was reserve in open. I'll take it. Lucy is finally maturing enough that I can start showing her and doing well. 

Going back to the kneeling, it was a mix. A lost of people kneeled. Mostly I noticed it with bitches not dogs. In the BOB ring it was all standing. So I think I'll stick with kneeling. I think I connected with Lucy better. Next shows we're in are the end of July. We'll see how we do. 

One other thought, do you wash and blow out your dog every morning of a show cluster?


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

Alaska7133 said:


> At last weekend's shows, I kneeled with Lucy. I think it really helped. It also helped that she was in coat. I have to say it "I beat Tonya"! What an amazing thing to beat a pro like that. So the best placement I had was reserve in open. I'll take it. Lucy is finally maturing enough that I can start showing her and doing well.
> 
> Going back to the kneeling, it was a mix. A lost of people kneeled. Mostly I noticed it with bitches not dogs. In the BOB ring it was all standing. So I think I'll stick with kneeling. I think I connected with Lucy better. Next shows we're in are the end of July. We'll see how we do.
> 
> One other thought, do you wash and blow out your dog every morning of a show cluster?


Congratulations! Reserve in open is something to be proud of.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Alaska7133 said:


> I have to say it "I beat Tonya"! What an amazing thing to beat a pro like that. So the best placement I had was reserve in open.


 Big congrats<: 




> One other thought, do you wash and blow out your dog every morning of a show cluster?


Yes. My breeder said you absolutely have to if the dog's coat will look its best.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Dang I washed her Friday night. Then Saturday morning I sprayed bodifier and blew her out. Sunday morning nothing. In fact she crawled under my car in the gravel to get a bug or something. Dogs are all the same whether they are show dogs or not, they just want to have fun and your showing schedule means nothing to them. 

It was so nice here on Friday night that I put my grooming table in the front yard and washed and blew out Lucy out there. I have a warm water mixer on my hose. It worked great. In the land of the midnight sun, I was blowing her out at 10:30 pm and the sun wasn't even close to going down. Then the next morning up with the sun up at 4 am and blowing her out in the front yard again in the full sunlight. Very nice to be able to do here. So at the July shows, I'll wash her and blow her out every morning.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Alaska7133 said:


> A I have to say it "I beat Tonya"! What an amazing thing to beat a pro like that. So the best placement I had was reserve in open. I'll take it.
> 
> One other thought, do you wash and blow out your dog every morning of a show cluster?


That is awesome, and definitely an inspiring win for the rest of us! I was asking a bit about kneeling and people's thoughts today. One of the best owner handlers around here is a very, very tall person, and she told me she often kneels if she is in a big group, and she is going to really look at the judge's face. She feels as she is taller than many judges, it is almost aggressive if she catches their eyes, but kneeling she can politely keep a good eye on the judge without overpowering her dogs. I really admire her as a breeder, owner handler- and she wins alot while always being so kind and nice to absolutely everyone.

I pray not to have to wash and blow out the dogs every morning, but I Lush has a knack for making me do it. We have a river bordering our lawn, and she has managed to take herself for a swim more than once, and once she got skunked at 3:45am on a show day. About a month later, my ( forgiving, awesome, and goodhumored) handler showed her, and the judge kind of whispered "skunk??", lol. She probably has 20 baths. I will always give that judge an entry bc he put her WB/BOW anyway.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Tonya is very tall too. She kneeled with her girl and stood with her boys. By the way she took Winston to BIS at both all breed shows and our specialty this weekend. It's so very rare to see a golden make best in show for an all breed, and to do it at 2 all breed in a row is very rare. Good for Tonya! Judge for our specialty was C. Michael Benson. The all breed BIS judges were: Kay Reamensnyder and Faye Strauss.


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