# Suddenly breaking down-stays



## staffgirl68 (Nov 4, 2010)

Any advice from the trainers out there would be appreciated!

Bear is 3 years old and a neutered male. In the last 2 training classes we've done he has begun to break his down-stays. In the first class, there was a dog reactive male also in class, which was in a small hall given the number of dogs so they were in close proximity. Bear and another of his golden friends were next to each other, then the dog aggressive dog along from them. Both Bear and his mate repeatedly broke their off-lead down-stays to come to us. I constantly returned Bear to the spot he should have been in and re-gave the stay command. One of the trainers noticed that Bear and his pal were giving alot of calming signals (lip licking and yawning).

In the next different class there were just 3 dogs in a very big space, but one of those males had just been chemically castrated as he had begun to be aggressive to other dogs. He had a bit of a growl at Bear before class but nothing major. During off-lead down-stays Bear again constantly broke the stay to come back to me. Again I just constantly returned him to the spot and tried again. 

I'm not sure what to do for the best. Bear is a very submissive dog, but also can give off quite high energy Play vibes so can get into scrapes. He tends to be the one to get picked on by dominant males in general and when that happens he runs to me. I don't know whether to see his behaviour as him feeling vulnerable and seeking safety, or if he's sometimes messing me about, which he can do! He has the usual retriever stubborn streak when he doesn't want to do something. The only thing that occurred to me would be to not retreat as far as the trainers want me to and stay closer to him and then gradually increase my distance over the coming weeks as we continue to practice.

Any thoughts?


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Have your trainers made any suggestions when this happened? I'm not a trainer but in the classes I've had the methods for fixing stay problems seem to be: having the handler stay closer to the dog, having the handler go back to the dog periodically to treat if the dog is holding the stay, and adjusting the positioning of the dogs in the lineup if problems are anticipated. My Zoe sometimes gets chosen to be the buffer between males who like to mix it up. It both flatters and annoys me and if I think there's any real risk I don't let them do it.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Bella broke a couple stays in class and a few at home within a period of about two weeks a few months ago. I had her do lots of very short stays throughout the day. Some were as short as 5-10 seconds, and some as long as a minute. My objective was to set her up for multiple successful stays throughout the day. I avoided the longer stays for about two weeks (except for the ones in class). It could be a coincidence, but the problem went away. 


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## staffgirl68 (Nov 4, 2010)

No they didn't make any suggestions as to what I should do. Thanks for the advice. I'll back-track with him and try doing short ones round the house as you have suggested and build it back up slowly from there. I think I'll also just stay much closer to him in class when doing it so he succeeds rather than fails constantly. I just felt bad for him as it seemed to be mostly to do with anxiety. Before his stays have been really good. Thinking about it I also need to acknowledge that I am less relaxed in classes where there are reactive dogs close by so that will have been having an effect I'm sure. Not sure what to do about that other than try and keep calm and carry on!


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

staffgirl68 said:


> No they didn't make any suggestions as to what I should do. Thanks for the advice. I'll back-track with him and try doing short ones round the house as you have suggested and build it back up slowly from there. I think I'll also just stay much closer to him in class when doing it so he succeeds rather than fails constantly. I just felt bad for him as it seemed to be mostly to do with anxiety. Before his stays have been really good. Thinking about it I also need to acknowledge that I am less relaxed in classes where there are reactive dogs close by so that will have been having an effect I'm sure. Not sure what to do about that other than try and keep calm and carry on!


For these short stays I referred to, I stood right in front of her. Very few were as long as a minute. Most were about 10 seconds.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Dogs 'behave' for a reason. It sounds like Bear (and the other dog) was breaking the stay to get out of a situation they did not feel safe in. Give him credit for his decision to distance himself from a situation in which he felt threatened and avoiding a confrontation. Congrats on having a well mannered and thinking dog!
Consider this: let's say you are very afraid of spiders. You are sitting in class, and on the chair next to you is a spider. Are you going to be able to concentrate on what you are supposed to be doing? If that spider moves towards you, are you going to be able to sit there and ignore it? Odds are you are going to put some distance between you and the spider. The other dog had already given 'warning' signals to Bear, he did what he needed to do to resolve the situation peacefully.
If Bear is stressed to the point he cannot perform commands that he was previously successful at, it is time to consider, not what is 'wrong' with the dog, but what may be 'wrong' with the environment you are asking him to perform in that may be preventing him from complying.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

this is what Linda Koutsky has handlers do. If the dog breaks and comes to you, let them come, and when they get to you, put them back in a stay right where you are, then YOU go stand in the line up of dog's where the dog just left from.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm not doubting this, since she is a highly regarded trainer. I just like to understand the reasoning behind different methods. How does that teach the dog to not do it in the future? 

ETA: this was a response to the comment immediately above this one. 


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Because if the dog broke the stay to get away from the dog's, it isn't goingto go running back into the line up, but it isn't going to be happy having to face the dogs either.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Loisiana said:


> Because if the dog broke the stay to get away from the dog's, it isn't goingto go running back into the line up, but it isn't going to be happy having to face the dogs either.



OK. Make sense. Thanks.

I've seen dogs break stays for various reasons, but haven't yet seen it happen out of fear. That would be a difficult problem to solve if it happened often.


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## staffgirl68 (Nov 4, 2010)

Charliethree said:


> Dogs 'behave' for a reason. It sounds like Bear (and the other dog) was breaking the stay to get out of a situation they did not feel safe in. Give him credit for his decision to distance himself from a situation in which he felt threatened and avoiding a confrontation. Congrats on having a well mannered and thinking dog!
> Consider this: let's say you are very afraid of spiders. You are sitting in class, and on the chair next to you is a spider. Are you going to be able to concentrate on what you are supposed to be doing? If that spider moves towards you, are you going to be able to sit there and ignore it? Odds are you are going to put some distance between you and the spider. The other dog had already given 'warning' signals to Bear, he did what he needed to do to resolve the situation peacefully.
> If Bear is stressed to the point he cannot perform commands that he was previously successful at, it is time to consider, not what is 'wrong' with the dog, but what may be 'wrong' with the environment you are asking him to perform in that may be preventing him from complying.


I completely agree CharlieThree. A spider would have me on edge or out of there depending on its size! We're really lucky as Bear is a lovely chilled out boy in general. And for me this raises a dilemma that I always struggle with about being in classes which are not only about training obedience for dogs which are fairly well "balanced", but that also have dogs in them who have had bad experiences leading to reactive/aggressive behaviour. I absolutely agree that reactive and aggressive dogs need help and deserve every chance to get over their problems. But I often worry that this can put my dog at risk if something goes wrong in an exercise. The classes I go to have excellent trainers who work very hard to manage the risks. And of course every time I walk my dogs off lead there is a risk of coming across an aggressive dog out and about. So I guess what would help is to educate myself more in being able to read warning signals and have a plan to make me feel more competent and pro-active.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I have a question regarding stays -- do you expect your dog to stay if something is falling near them?

Molly broke a stay in class one time when the German shepherd next to her repeatedly kept getting up and walking around Molly. She was fine until the GSD knocked over the ring gate behind them and Molly stood up but didn't move. I'm not sure if I should proof her stay for falling objects but a falling ring gate isn't exactly dangerous. 


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