# Delicate situation with breeder, please advise (puppy has murmur and cryptorchidism)



## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

It's such a tough decision but make that decision sooner rather than later. Good Luck


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Things are not lost at this point. The undescended testicle could very well still come down and the heart murmur could still go away. I would call your breeder and talk to her about your concerns.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm not questioning your vet, as I am not a vet myself, but anecdotally there have been a lot of puppies who had murmurs when they were tiny and they grow out of it. But, I encourage you to take her to a heart specialist for your own peace of mind.

The rescue had a litter of puppies a few years ago and a few of the males had undescended testicles. The rescue's vet recommend waiting until they were a year old to neuter them, to give them time for the testicles to drop. I know one of them ultimately had to have abdominal neuter to retrieve them, but I gathered from the vets recommendation that is possible for them to drop later and worth waiting to see if it will.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

I would slow down, take a few deep breaths and really focus on your pup right now. The heart murmur can still go away. If it was a grade III or more I would be concerned. Just continue to monitor and see what happens. From my experience they do tend to go away though their are cases where they dont and yes you have to look into it further as heart conditions like SAS is a cause of concern in this breed. Did the parents, grandparents have heart clearances by a cardiologist? 

The retained testicle could also come down still. For me if its not present by 4-5 months it probably wont come down. If it doesnt and remains undescended then yes those two dogs shouldnt be bred again as it is hereditary. IMO also there is no rush to do it at 6 months. As long as you do neuter him by like age 2 years at most you should be fine. The longer you do wait the easier it is to find the other testicle because they are very very small when they are growing inside the dog and it gives it time to get bigger. 

Again, look carefully at what your contract states, but I wouldnt jump the gun just yet as far as "blaming the breeder" unless their other red flags that you are now noticing. Again, health clearances such as Hips, Elbows, Eyes and Heart done by specialists and the OFA (i assume they do all of this in Canada). I would contact the breeder and just voice your concerns and see what they say. Do it nicely, politely and see what happens. You may Be surprised..either in a good way or even bad way. Because that will show how much they do care or show their true colors. I wish you and your pup the best. Enjoy every second as they get big so quickly!

If you need any help, especially regarding clearances, telling if this is a good reputable breeder you can certainely ask here. There are some very helpful, informative people on here!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I had a GSD that had one undescended testicle. My vet at the time that pushes early neutering, had me wait until he was a year old to neuter him. The neuter becomes much like a spay, where their is second incision in the abdomin to find the lost testicle. No problems. I believe it is genetic, but it is also pretty common. Two of my cats had the same issue.

I believe a murmur being graded by a doctor listening is subjective to the vet. A handful of vets can hear it and grade them differently. When my daughter had a heart murmur that she grew out of, some doctors could hear it, some couldn't, and then it also depended on what position she was in. I did follow up with a cardiologist just for my own piece of mind.

Have you talked to your breeder again?


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## BajaOklahoma (Sep 27, 2009)

If we were talking about your human child having a murmur, you would most likely take the child to a cardiologist. They are the ones more experienced in listening to the murmur and more up-to-date on what is most likely to happen. Same goes for a puppy.

The undescended testicle isn't that big a deal. The surgery isn't any worse than a spay and the dog will be fine. I would probably do the neuter at 12 months, rather than 18 months.


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## gmurad (Jul 10, 2013)

I called the breeder and she told me that one of his half brothers (which she was keeping for herself) who was born a week from him has just been detected to also have a heart murmur. She was very upset about it as she was planning on having be a new breeding male for her kennel.

Her direction to me was that we should wait until we really know it's a problem (6 months) and than she would give me the money back or give me a new puppy if it's a problem, something like that not really sure how this would work. This doesn't seem to be a logical resolution of the problem.

If it turns out to be a real problem a refund of the puppy value would not make much financial difference by than I would have already spent a lot of money and the treatment costs (which I would want to do because I would be very bound with the dog) would probably be much higher.

When we got our puppy we had to fill out a CKC form that she said would be used for registration and later mailed to us. We weren't shown anything from the parents, health certificates, registration or anything.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

If it were my puppy, I'd want him evaluated by a cardiologist not just a regular vet as said above. Grading is important and I'd much more trust someone with specialized training in that arena.

As far as the testicle, it could still come down, but if not it is important to get it taken care of as there is an increased risk of other health issues for retained ones.


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## gmurad (Jul 10, 2013)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> If it were my puppy, I'd want him evaluated by a cardiologist not just a regular vet as said above. Grading is important and I'd much more trust someone with specialized training in that arena.
> 
> As far as the testicle, it could still come down, but if not it is important to get it taken care of as there is an increased risk of other health issues for retained ones.


I think this might be a good idea, I'm losing sleep over this and not being able to enjoy my puppy as much as I wanted to, it's becoming a negative experience and I don't want to pass this down to the puppy.

Would a cardiologist be able to tell me more info about the problem or would he most likely say "We have to wait and see"? Around how much would I spend to do this? I heard echo-cardiograms cost around $400.

Anyone has a phone number or name for a decent cardiologist in Toronto?

Thanks,
Gihad.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

An innocent puppy murmur will typically disappear around 16 weeks of age. I would wait until then before worrying. If it hasn't disappeared by 16 weeks, I would want the puppy seen by a specialist.

At this age, testicles can go up and come down  Not a big deal overall and not a reason to rush into a neuter. I would probably neuter him before he turns two. 

Location is important as far as neutering goes though, much easier if they can feel or locate the undescended testicle than if they have search for it internally.

A reputable breeder would have been proud to show pedigrees and clearance information (certs for hips, elbows, eyes and heart) on the parents before you even made the decision to drive up and see the pup.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

gmurad said:


> Anyone has a phone number or name for a decent cardiologist in Toronto?
> 
> Thanks,
> Gihad.


Yes, there is a wonderful cardiologist at the VEC in Toronto on Yonge St. Her name is Dr Regan Williams. She is the cardiologist we use for breeding clearances. I believe the cardiologist clearance for breeding was less than $70, it did not include and echo. She may want to just monitor your puppy, until it is a little older. 

Phone number is 416-920-2002

I do know of a puppy, who was pick of his litter, that was given away because his heart murmur had not gone away by 6 mths. I saw the lady that had him, about a year later and asked her how he was doing. She told me when she took him in for a check up at a year it was gone. I am sure this is the exception rather than the rule, but it does happen.


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

Before I picked up Olliver my breeder advised his 1 testicle had not come down. She told me the eventual neuter may cost more if it did not come down and told me she would give me difference in the cost if that were the case. 
By the 2nd set of shots (about 3 months) all testicles where they should be.
Additionally, 1st young vet thought she heard some little something in heart area. The older vet listened, said it is not uncommon to hear some oddball sounds in young puppies. Did a thorough exam, said probably nothing but we would make sure to note chart and watch. Last 3 visits his heart is perfect.
Olliver is now 4.5 months old and A+ healthy.


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## Charlie_2013 (Jun 16, 2013)

Well I talked about this with my wife and she is a vet tech. She said that the testicle thing is no big deal. However, that it should be taken care of. Next, she said that she understands the expense but your little one should be taken to a cardio specialist. She feels that if you did take your puppy back it probably wouldn't live as long because not every puppy finds a great home. You've already put in the sweat equity and finances thus far and you obviously love your new addition. She said she would wait it out. If at the end of 6 months.... your puppy still has the issues, keep the puppy, get your money back (because by then its a matter of principal) and dont use her or recommend her to anyone. But medicine isn't the only thing that keeps an animal alive, if they have the will power and a good home, they will do everything they can to stay alive. All of this is my wifes (and my own) opinion of the situation.

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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I have had more new puppies with these kind of problems than without. It seems to go with babyhood in goldens. There is every chance both issues will iron themselves out. The testicle is only a big deal if you planned to show or breed. The heart murmur is a wait-and-see. It IS frustrating- I have been in your shoes. I would try and focus on all the fun parts of the puppy, and check the heart at 16 weeks before taking action.


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## Ylan's Mom (May 14, 2013)

I am sorry you are going through this. Your puppy is blesssed to have you to care for him. My Ylan was diagnosed with dysplasia at 4 months. We had 13.5 beautiful years. You never know what will happen or why. Ihave read good advise and I can't help much but pray that you find serenity to be able to help your pup the best way.


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## Red Dogs (Jul 11, 2013)

I have read this forum for years but have never posted. After reading your
story I just had to reply. It brought back so many memories, and tears. I went through exactly what you are going through in 2005. I don't want to upset you in any way, but I feel I should tell you my story. My very first dog ever and golden named Stella was diagnosed with an innocent murmur on her first puppy check up and shots with my vet. When the breeder took the litter into the vet before they went to there forever homes she did not have a murmur. Anyway he was a bit concerned but said lets check it on the next visit. Well to make a long story short, it never went away and only got worse. The breeder asked me to take her to her vet which I did and he also said this is not good. We went to a critical care vet and saw a wonderful cardiologist who did a ultrasound, all I had to do is look at her face and I knew. Being in the medical field myself I knew what was going on. She was diagnosed with SAS (basically a narrowing in the valve for blood flow to the heart). She said she probably won't make it to her first year. My breeder was wonderful, she was devestated this had never happened to her before and the littermates were all fine. She insisted I give her back as it was not fair to us, and that she would keep her as happy as long as she could. Hardest thing I ever had to do in my life! She only survived a couple of days after that, she was having trouble breathing as she was getting bigger (only abut 3 months as this time) the narrowing of the valve got smaller with less and less blood flow to the heart.

I am sorry this is so long but, please get that ultrasound done now for your peace of mind before you get to attached (I know you are already), but you never know the outcome... we didn't. Stella only lived for 6 months (Oct 16,2005-Mar 16,2006) but she has a very special place in my heart.

Good news through, now have 2 more goldens from the same breeder (she is so awesome) a 7yr old and a 21/2 yr old and are as healthy as can be.

I wish you all the best, but make sure you are in constant contact about this whole situation with your breeder.

Keep us posted.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

My brother got a lab 10 years ago that ended up with muscular myopathy (dog MD). No recourse with the breeder other than to return the pup and she was 9 months old. They were told of the likely problems, mortality, difficulty of having a dog with this disease. They kept her and she has been the light of their lives. She's beaten all of the odds and outlived even our Hazel. If he ends up truly having a problem, consider that the relationship can be even more rewarding with a special needs pup. 


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

In general, Grade 1-2 murmurs are mild and can often be innocent. I knew of a golden pup with a Grade 3 who was diagnosed with mild SAS. Mild SAS will not shorten a dog's life. I made a cardiologist ultrasound a pup I bred who had a very soft, Grade 1 murmur at 8 weeks. He tried to talk me it of it because it was so soft. I insisted and he did not see SAS at that time. That dog is fine and will be 9 in August. SAS can show up any time until one year.

Undescended testicles are no big deal. It is a sex determined recessive trait...so both parents carry the trait.. Those two dogs should not be bred to each other again.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Undescended testicles are no big deal. It is a sex determined recessive trait...so both parents carry the trait.. Those two dogs should not be bred to each other again.


At what age is it determined to be a recessive trait?
Given that testes go up and down, when does it pass the threshold of being fairly common male puppy testes and cross over to a recessive trait? At say 16 weeks, 6 months?


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

My spirit had a undescended testicle, like sally said no big deal.


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## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm very sorry you're having these problems with your new pup. I thought I would share my story to assuage some of your concerns with the lesser problem of being cryptochoid.

Our Murphy is now 7 months and he was neutered last Monday. He is cryptochoid so we had planned to wait as others here have suggested until 18 months giving him time to descend if he was a late bloomer. However he broke an incisor tooth while playing with another puppy so was going under general anesthesia for x-rays and a possible extraction of that tooth. The vet suggested we do both surgeries in one go. We met with three different vets over our pups trips to the same office for various ailments in Murphy's 5 months with us. All of them have agreed that if the testicle is never felt/seen in the first 3 months it is very, very unlikely it will descend. On our last consult before surgery, the vet said specifically she felt it is 99% likely waiting will accomplish nothing.


We were given an estimate for the "more expensive" spay of $329, the actual itemized cost for the neuter was reduced to $229. The vet who performed the surgery found the testicle in the lingual canal and was able to remove it with a single incision in his testicle area. Remember three vets had examined him previously and checked this location without finding it. The vet who performed the surgery said this is normal, that when puppies are under anesthesia she can often find a missing testicle like this and avoid additional incisions. She said it was very small and underdeveloped. No abdomen surgery, no additional trauma for the pup, no scar and no extra cost. The oral surgery however was challenging and took additional effort to extract the tooth. Our total cost for the process including followup care, antibiotics, x-rays, etc. was $1300. We also had him chipped in that cost.

Murphy is healing nicely and we were able to leave him alone without his e-collar a week post surgery. This was a huge relief to us as he had trouble navigating his crate with the collar on so leaving him alone while he had to wear it was problematic.

Here is a pic of him in his favorite spot, the cool kitchen tiles near the door. Hopefully done with the vet until his annual vaccinations!


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## gmurad (Jul 10, 2013)

Hey everyone, thanks a lot for sharing all these information, there is a lot of good advice here and some good stories.

This is a great community that you guys have going and I will try to be a part of it as much as I can.

We have decided to wait until 16 weeks and check on the heart murmur again, if it's still there I will probably go see a specialist. We are too attached to our puppy now, returning him doesn't feel right. My sister was born with a heart murmur and got better with age, I hope my puppy will be the same.

The undescended testicle issue is not a big deal, it will probably just be a more complicated neutering when the time comes. I think the heart murmur is really the bigger problem, I will have to wait and try not to think about it too much.

I will let you guys know what happens.

Thanks!


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Millie'sMom said:


> Yes, there is a wonderful cardiologist at the VEC in Toronto on Yonge St. Her name is Dr Regan Williams. She is the cardiologist we use for breeding clearances. I believe the cardiologist clearance for breeding was less than $70, it did not include and echo. She may want to just monitor your puppy, until it is a little older.
> 
> Phone number is 416-920-2002
> 
> I do know of a puppy, who was pick of his litter, that was given away because his heart murmur had not gone away by 6 mths. I saw the lady that had him, about a year later and asked her how he was doing. She told me when she took him in for a check up at a year it was gone. I am sure this is the exception rather than the rule, but it does happen.


I was also going to recommend you go to the VEC. My dog didn't see Dr. Regan, but she had wonderful treatent there from the oncologist, surgeon, and internal medicine specialists. And the people there are wonderfully caring. 

Good luck. I'm glad you have decided to wait and see again in a few weeks.


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

Best of luck with your pup. Everything will probably work out just right. The breeders on here have seen these things come to nothing, as did I with my Olliver. 
So glad your pup has attached herself to your heart. Try not to worry too much, just do your follow ups and enjoy your baby in the meantime. I can't tall you how quickly my little Olliver has grown from a little ball of fur to a leggy pre teen! Overnight. Enjoy enjoy enjoy


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## gmurad (Jul 10, 2013)

Hey I just wanted to give an update on my situation.

Our beloved puppy is now 4.5 months old, his heart murmur never went away and his missing testicle is still missing. He also had a few different types of allergies and infections along the way.

Just today he woke up with something really weird in his eye, I went to the vet and he told me that my dog has Cherry eye, another genetic disorder to add to my list. This needs surgery to be fixed but because of the heart murmur it's a little more complicated.

This dog really changed my life, he means a lot to me but it's becoming difficult to deal with all this problems. In order to take care of all his issue I will probably have to spend a few thousand dollars, money that I can't spare. 

If I return him to the breeder he will probably be sacrificed, I would suppose the same thing would happen if we give the dog to a shelter. This is a really bad situation, this experience makes me not want to ever have a dog again and not even have children.

We just can't catch a break...


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## Hina (May 31, 2013)

Hi Gmurad, I'm sorry about this. Thanks for doing all that you can for your puppy. I can't imagine being in this situation and I admire all that you've done. I hope things get better.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Simply put it comes down to trust. 

If you don't trust the breeder, return the pup now and look for another pup.

If you trust the breeder wait and see what happens. It is common for golden puppies to have innocent murmurs that resolve themselves as the pup develops. (Your Vet should have known that by the way and not sent you into a panic.) A pups testicles go up and down but should come down and stay down at around 4 to 6 months of age. (Again your Vet should have known that and explained it to you without sending you into a panic.) If the testicle is retained (up) the neuter becomes more like a spay in a female. It's a bit more complicated than a regular neuter, but not any more complicated than dealing with a female and shouldn't be anymore expensive than a spay. 

Grading a murmur is subjective and opinions will vary from Vet to Vet. Your neighborhood Vet is not a Cardiologist, so yes, he detected a murmur but does he possess the professional expertice to grade a murmur with absolute certainty? Probably not.


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## Dexter12 (Feb 10, 2012)

I've found these two cardiologists in Toronto:

Dr. Nevena Borozan
Toronto Veterinary Cardiology
Mobile Practice
Toronto, ON 
Tel: 416-275-5811
E-mail: [email protected]

Dr. Regan M. Williams 
Veterinary Emergency Clinic - South
920 Yonge St, Suite 117 
Toronto, ON M4W 3C7 
Tel: 416-920-2002 
Website: Veterinary Emergency Clinic - VEC SOUTH: 920 Yonge St. - (416) 920-2002 VEC NORTH: 280 Sheppard Ave. East - (416) 226-3663 

Good Luck!!


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

I can't really advise you one way or the other as far as whether to keep this pup or return him. But I wanted to share our Sonny's story with you. We got him from a breeder with a very good reputation, we saw a couple if clearances for the parents but not all 4 key clearances as we didn't know any better and we trusted the breeder. He was one of 2 puppies, born by emergency c-section at which time his dam's uterus was found to be filled with cysts so she was spayed immediately. His sire was exactly 2 yrs old, and we never met him but saw pics and he was a good looking fella. 

Before Sonny came home, his breeder called and told me he had entropian (sp?), so his lower eyelids had to be tacked down by the vet to keep his eyelashes from scraping his eyes until his head grew a bit. She assured me this wouldn't be a lasting problem and offered to cover any costs to do with his eyes for his entire lifetime. That convinced me, so I agreed to still take the pup provided she write it into the contract (which she did). 

Fast fwd: Sonny's first vet appointment he gets his eye stitches out, and we find he's cryporchid. No big deal, but a bit of a disappointment as his neuter was considerably more intense and expensive ($400- but it was at a very expensive clinic, we no longer use them). Other than that, he was great! Total joy, head of his puppy class, moved up to level one obedience at 5 months and still kicked butt! Temperament that couldn't be beat, opening our fridge and bringing us a beer at 9 months old! Perfect boy. Then at age 1 1/2-ish he developed extreme allergies that we battled the rest if his with. His breeder blamed us, saying he was neurotic from lack of mental stimulation and that's why he was chewing on himself constantly. She said none of her dogs had EVER had a problem with allergies. Turned out Sonny WAS allergic- grain, poultry, potatoes, and goodness knows what else. Then at 4, Sonny experienced paralyses in the lower half of his face. The vet was stumped, but during the tests we found out he had hypothyroidism so we began treatment for that. The vet thought he could have a degenerative nerve disease, which would be fatal. But she recommended we wait for a few weeks and see how things went. He also had a raging ear infection at that time (as he did on and off for his whole life, in spite of receiving twice-daily cleanings). We were frantic to help him, save our boy. And the paralysis ended up going away slowly on it's own thank God. His breeder had no idea what could be happening, but was certain it wasn't genetic.

Fast fwd a few months and Sonny is the 'Best Dog' at our wedding in August 2012. Then in October 2012, I came home from work to find him on his bed sleeping, but he was dead at age 5. His breeder, who we still trusted so much, claimed we must've been feeding him expired food (it wasn't- and we were militant about only feeding him that food and the matching treats, due to his allergies). She offered us a pup from her current litter, which we jumped at due to our other golden being devastatingly lonely. We got the pup a week after Sonny had been dead for a week. 5 days later, the pup was extremely sick from a raging Giardia infection. Day 6 he was rushed to the vet, where they mentioned treating other dogs from that kennel for this parasite. He was kept for three days at the vets office. We called the breeder to let her know and ask her to call the other puppy parents. We got her kennel staff, who mentioned "Giardia! We just had that a few weeks ago, but we thought we'd gotten rid if it!". The breeder called us back and said she'd never had giardia there, and that it was basically our fault he was sick because our last boy had just died so it must be related. We told her we weren't looking for her to pay anything or take him back, but that we were hurt that she'd withheld information from us. 

The moral of the (long-winded) story: don't trust anyone, make sure you get copies of clearances, and if something feels 'off'- TRUST your gut! I wouldn't trade my time with Sonny for anything, but I suspected from the moment she said Sonny eyes were entropian that he'd be plagued with health issues. And thousands of dollars later, I've learned my lesson about trust.

If we'd given our most recent puppy back (the giardia pup), he wouldn't have received the treatment we were able to give him. It's very possible he would've died, the infection was so severe. If you give this pup back, I would imagine that he will also not receive the treatment you would likely give him. If you do decide to go that route, I would NOT be looking for a replacement pup from this breeder. Take your refund and search for a different breeder. JMO. 


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I have a 3 year old golden who has pigmentary uveitis and elbow dysplasia. It is so sad when I look into his eyes, to wonder what his future will bring to him. However, I also have goldens here in the bloom & pink of health, and I know they could develop any kind of cancer any day( bc it is our common cross to bear as golden lovers), and my boy with the serious health issues might outilve them. We have to deal as gracefully as we can with what we can, and separate out anger with the breeder from what concrete things must be done to keep the dog out of pain.


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## gmurad (Jul 10, 2013)

Dancer said:


> I can't really advise you one way or the other as far as whether to keep this pup or return him. But I wanted to share our Sonny's story with you. We got him from a breeder with a very good reputation, we saw a couple if clearances for the parents but not all 4 key clearances as we didn't know any better and we trusted the breeder. He was one of 2 puppies, born by emergency c-section at which time his dam's uterus was found to be filled with cysts so she was spayed immediately. His sire was exactly 2 yrs old, and we never met him but saw pics and he was a good looking fella.
> 
> Before Sonny came home, his breeder called and told me he had entropian (sp?), so his lower eyelids had to be tacked down by the vet to keep his eyelashes from scraping his eyes until his head grew a bit. She assured me this wouldn't be a lasting problem and offered to cover any costs to do with his eyes for his entire lifetime. That convinced me, so I agreed to still take the pup provided she write it into the contract (which she did).
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing this story. I feel like I'm in the beginning of your story, you kept on going with the problems you had for a long time and even got another puppy from the same breeder. That makes my situation not look as bad as I thought.

Right now I'm thinking that I should find a rescue organization for him, from the looks of things he will develop more problems as he grows older. They might be able to spend the money that I can't and get him healthy. Before getting a dog, I was ready to spend some money on eventual problems, but now it seems like it will be more than $5000.

What sucks is that on the outside he is a perfect puppy(until today's cherry eye problem), very active, star of his class, extremely sociable...


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## CStrong73 (Jun 11, 2012)

I went through a similar situation when we got our Collie. I didn't research breeders enough (in retrospect). We brought our puppy home the day we went to look. Took him to the vet the next day, only to be told that the puppy had a severe heart issue. He did say it wasn't necessarily genetic nd we could probably feel safe getting another pup from the same breeder. So we drove back and picked out another pup and brought him home. He got a clean bill of health.

After about 6 months, he started getting hot spot after hot spot. We finally figured out he was allergic to beef.

Then at two years old, he became very sick. $5,000 worth of tests later, we were told he had leukemia. In the testing process, they also discovered heart abnormalities in him. Not as significant as his brother whom we first brought home, but still....abnormal. And his leukemia was so aggressive, we were advised to put him down. It was heartbreaking. Especially for my kids.

Needless to say, I did a lot more research for our next puppy. Even conculted my vet about various breeders.

I don't envy the decision you are currently facing. I wish I could tell you what to do.


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## Goldens R Great (Aug 19, 2010)

gmurad said:


> Thank you for sharing this story. I feel like I'm in the beginning of your story, you kept on going with the problems you had for a long time and even got another puppy from the same breeder. That makes my situation not look as bad as I thought.
> 
> *Right now I'm thinking that I should find a rescue organization for him*, from the looks of things he will develop more problems as he grows older. They might be able to spend the money that I can't and get him healthy. Before getting a dog, I was ready to spend some money on eventual problems, but now it seems like it will be more than $5000.
> 
> What sucks is that on the outside he is a perfect puppy(until today's cherry eye problem), very active, star of his class, extremely sociable...


I think that is a very good idea to contact a rescue organization.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

What kind of heart murmur rating did you get from your regular vet? I would at least consult with a cardiologist before deciding anything. Also, the retained testicle is not too big of a deal, just a more involved procedure as they have to go searching..if its not in the ingunial area. Also, a cherry eye is an pretty easy procedure. We do them at my hospital and we are not a speciality practice. 

Just some thoughts before you wind up getting your pup into rescue. I am sure you love him already and would love to keep him. These problems may not be as bad as you think..you just need more information, especially regarding the heart.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*I agree*



OnMyWay2MyDreams said:


> What kind of heart murmur rating did you get from your regular vet? I would at least consult with a cardiologist before deciding anything. Also, the retained testicle is not too big of a deal, just a more involved procedure as they have to go searching..if its not in the ingunial area. Also, a cherry eye is an pretty easy procedure. We do them at my hospital and we are not a speciality practice.
> 
> Just some thoughts before you wind up getting your pup into rescue. I am sure you love him already and would love to keep him. These problems may not be as bad as you think..you just need more information, especially regarding the heart.


I completely agree.


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

Dancer said:


> I can't really advise you one way or the other as far as whether to keep this pup or return him. But I wanted to share our Sonny's story with you. We got him from a breeder with a very good reputation, we saw a couple if clearances for the parents but not all 4 key clearances as we didn't know any better and we trusted the breeder. He was one of 2 puppies, born by emergency c-section at which time his dam's uterus was found to be filled with cysts so she was spayed immediately. His sire was exactly 2 yrs old, and we never met him but saw pics and he was a good looking fella.
> 
> Before Sonny came home, his breeder called and told me he had entropian (sp?), so his lower eyelids had to be tacked down by the vet to keep his eyelashes from scraping his eyes until his head grew a bit. She assured me this wouldn't be a lasting problem and offered to cover any costs to do with his eyes for his entire lifetime. That convinced me, so I agreed to still take the pup provided she write it into the contract (which she did).
> 
> ...


I just wanted to follow up with stating that it isn't my intention to 'bash' my breeder, simply state the facts as they occurred as far as not seeing all the clearances on the first pup, and not seeing any (my fault, admittedly) on the following two pups we purchased from her (the giardia pup was our third and last). I'm also unable to find data for complete (all 4) clearances posted on K9 Data, unfortunately. Additionally, it is only 'hearsay' (the statements of the vet tech and the person watching this breeders kennel) that give us the very strong impression that we were deliberately misled, and that potentially key health info was withheld from us. I will not publicly state this breeders name, as we opted not to pursue damages in small claims court (and for the record, we paid full price of $1200 on the puppy we bought upon the death of our 5 year old golden, then coughed up $900 6 days later to have him treated and to get our other golden tested). However I WILL tell my story to anyone and everyone who admires my dogs and asks where they came from. Another persons experiences there may be different, but I will fairly represent mine and state only the facts as they occurred. And if asked privately, I would see no harm in releasing my dogs registered names on an individual basis. Just in case folks think I'm on a breeder-bashing rant, I can assure you that's not the case. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## gmurad (Jul 10, 2013)

OnMyWay2MyDreams said:


> What kind of heart murmur rating did you get from your regular vet? I would at least consult with a cardiologist before deciding anything. Also, the retained testicle is not too big of a deal, just a more involved procedure as they have to go searching..if its not in the ingunial area. Also, a cherry eye is an pretty easy procedure. We do them at my hospital and we are not a speciality practice.
> 
> Just some thoughts before you wind up getting your pup into rescue. I am sure you love him already and would love to keep him. These problems may not be as bad as you think..you just need more information, especially regarding the heart.


But having in mind that he already had all these genetic problems, wouldn't it be likely that new problems will arise in the future?

So far he had:

-Heart Murmur (II out of VI grade)
-Cyptorchidism (testicle not descended)
-Cherry eye
-Allergies


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Some of those problems could be congenital like the heart (not hereditary), some you have no control over (allergies). Cherry eyes may or may not be hereditary and cryptorchidism is a recessive trait that while it stinks and the breeder should not breed those two particular dogs together again, and if you neuter your dog you wont pass down and hopefully if she kept a pup or someone else has a sibling that they are careful who they breed too. 

Again, with the heart murmur being that low but somewhat persistant I would get it further checked out. Just to be sure what it is. The other issues are either fixable/treatable. It depends on how much you can handle but from your posts you sound like you really love this pup. I would hate for you to give him up and turns out to be an innocent heart murmur :crossfing and he might have occassional allergies throughout his life, but that is it..nothing else..but you never know, no one ever does..that is life. Things will and do happen..or they dont. If life was predictable what fun would that be..you will have your ups and downs. Trust me I know..have had it happen with numerous dogs and seen it happen with client's dogs. Just my opinions..you are the one with this pup. Not me. So it is up to you. I hope some of this helps you..and I hope this pup goes on to live a long great life.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

As a veterinarian of 27 years, I have never seen cherry eye in a Golden. Cryptorchidism, yes...


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## gmurad (Jul 10, 2013)

Sally's Mom said:


> As a veterinarian of 27 years, I have never seen cherry eye in a Golden. Cryptorchidism, yes...


Yeah, my vet said that it's very rare in this breed. I guess I'm just "lucky"...


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Are you sure it is cherry eye? I ask because my vet, who I think the world of, misdiagnosed my girl's eye problem (3rd eyelid was showing and her eye looked sunken) as an injury, scraped her eye, when it didn't get better told me she was developing scar tissue and was in pain and there was nothing more they could do. I made an appointment with my favorite k9 eye doctor and had her there within a couple of days.

Turned out she had Horner's Syndrome-nothing serious at all, and no treatment except time. It is unusual in a young dog and in a young dog is typically caused by an irritation of one of the major nerves running up the neck. This can be caused by a collar or, in Romey's case, enthusiastic neck tugging and biting by her puppy 

Based on the nerve the eye doctor thought was involved, she was able to put in some drops and based on Romey's almost immediate improvement, was able to confirm Horner's. As of today, Romey is fine and her eye is entirely back to normal.

The visits to my vet totalled around $300-$400, and the visit to the eye specialist was $80 :doh: Lesson learned-when in doubt, go to the specialist. It can even be cheaper in the long run.

My vet simply was not expecting Horner's in such a young dog, and he is not an expert on eyes.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I would definitely get an opinion on the cherry eye from an eye specialist. The specialist knows specifically what to look for. My first golden had horner's syndrome also and it wasn't diagnosed until my vet referred me to an eye specialist. The eye specialist was able to diagnose right away and we were relieved that it was harmless and his eye also returned to normal.


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## gmurad (Jul 10, 2013)

Hey,

I'm pretty sure it's cherry eye, even tho it's rare on Golden Retrievers. I could be wrong but I did a lot of research and it seems that way. The vet is also positive that it is cherry eye.

I know people can't tell just from pics but I attached some anyways.

The vet quoted $950 to do both the Neutering and the Cherry Eye surgery at the same time, seems like a fair price. According to the vet, I'm gonna have to do some tests before the surgery because of the risk of putting him under being that he has a heart murmur, that's gonna be a separate cost.

Thanks.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Sure is a cherry eye. The cost for the surgery is a bit high for my area but too me its also not outrageous.. Are you going to keep him for now and go to a cardiologist?


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## gmurad (Jul 10, 2013)

OnMyWay2MyDreams said:


> Sure is a cherry eye. The cost for the surgery is a bit high for my area but too me its also not outrageous.. Are you going to keep him for now and go to a cardiologist?


My vet now sent a quote of $650 for an ultrasound w/ doppler, he wants to do that before the surgery to know more about his heart before giving him anesthesia. The surgery cost (For neutering and cherry eye) is now $823 because some of the cost will be covered in the ultrasound quote.

I'm looking at my options now as this is getting too expensive for me, if the breeder return the money I paid for him it would help. I'm considering the possibility of talking to Golden Rescue, someone suggested they might be able to take on my dog, get him healthy and place him with someone who could take care of him better than I can:--sad::--sad::--sad:


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Your vet is a cardiologist then? Again. Prices is higher..but where you are at that may be the normal going rate. I would ask the breeder for the money back as I believe you said they already offered it to you. If anything will help pay for these tests and if you get great news then awesome. That would be my path..but it is up to you. I wouldnt want to be in your shoes.


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## gmurad (Jul 10, 2013)

OnMyWay2MyDreams said:


> Your vet is a cardiologist then? Again. Prices is higher..but where you are at that may be the normal going rate. I would ask the breeder for the money back as I believe you said they already offered it to you. If anything will help pay for these tests and if you get great news then awesome. That would be my path..but it is up to you. I wouldnt want to be in your shoes.


He is not a cardiologist, but he said he can do the ultrasound. I suspect that with the cardiologist it would probably cost much more than $650. I tried calling a cardiologist but they will not give me a price estimate, they said that my vet has to refer me and call them...


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