# Fighting Dominance in a "dog whispering" World



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

This looks really interesting!

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Expanded Description:

Watch Jean Donaldson and Ian Dunbar take on the controversial and often misunderstood concept of dominance. Does it really exist, how does it impact the relationships between dogs and dogs and people. A particularly timely subject given the number of so-called "experts" who feature dominance in dogs as a major component in their training methods.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

I will definitely hadve to take a gander. Thanks!!!!


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Glad you posted this. It looks interesting.

There are many times in forums when people make comments about certain behaviors being "dominant" behaviors.

I have to sit on my hands to keep from saying "What the heck are you talking about?". I believe that there have been SO many "dog experts" saying that virtually every behavior except for complete submissiveness is a dog showing "dominance" that people just accept it as fact.

I've never found that to be the case. Mounting/humping doesn't always mean dominance, for example. As a friend (with a good number of dogs) on another forum stated.."sometimes, when the dogs are out playing, it looks like a conga line! :lol: They're ALL mounting one another! Nobody is being dominant.....they're playing." It means "something" to them, but dominance doesn't seem to factor in at all.

I've seen the same thing here. Mounting doesn't appear sexual, or dominant MOST of the time. It just "is". I guess the dogs know what it means.....I certainly don't. Sometimes it could be a type of dominance......but from my experience, not often. Dominance usually is shown in other body postures. Like "standing over"..... or "lording over" as I call it. 

Anyway......thanks again. I do hope some of the "this" is dominant, or "that" is dominant starts to die down. It drives me nuts! :lol:


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Looks like a very interesting book! I feel the same as Andreaold, sends me crazy the amount of people that throw the word 'dominance' about...I hope this book does some good! 

Heres another good book (well more of a booklet) if anyone is interested...

Dominance: Facto Or Fiction - examining the relationship between dogs and us


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm going to be looking at this when I get home. I'm very interested!


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## Rastadog (Oct 24, 2006)

*Yea Stephanie!*

I am a big Ian Dunbar fan. I was lucky enough to go to a two day seminar he gave in Ct. back in 1997. Great seminar, good guy we had lots of fun. There was an article in the NY Times about him this year. It talked about the contrast between Ian's philosphy and the dog whisper. Ian's methods work and are fun. Sirius puppy training rules. Here is a link to the article.

The Anti-Cesar Millan / Ian Dunbar's been succeeding for 25 years with lure-reward dog training; how come he's been usurped by the flashy, aggressive TV host? - 57k


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

The dog is breathing! He must be dominant!

The dog runs out the door with joy because he loves to go for walks! He must be dominant!!!!!!!

The dog looked at me! Quick! Get help! He's plotting to dominate the world!!!

My dogs sleep in my bed!!!! Dear god, whatever shall I do! They're dominating me!!!!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

(but I still look better in dom boots than they do... they just like to chew 'em up)


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I myself would love to learn more about dog behavior and communication (between both canines and humans). It seems they read our body language so well and in many instances (like with my Cocker Spaniel) do not need any conscious training from us to understand exactly what we want from them. It fascinates me.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Dogs speak volumes, and so so clearly, and are so predictable... dogs rarely surprise me. The signs are there if one can read them. It's like learning sign language, almost. It looks so confusing, then once you know it, it's like WOW, communication! Much like for a deaf person who formerly felt unable to communicate- and such a person is so delighted to find another signer. Well, dogs watch me and gravitate towards me because I can communicate with them. It must be to dogs that lack that in their lives like their silent, lonely black and white world is suddenly so full of communication and color... I think that's why dogs follow me around at the park, why Courtney's dog listens to me and stares at me all the time. But since I was a child I have related more to dogs than people, spent hours from tiny childhood watching dogs... heck I used to play like a dog as a five or six year old, bowing and copying my dog's "moves" in play. Weird, huh?  but I can't remember a time where dogs didn't make more sense to me than people do. And I have just never bought the big dominance thing... I DO think dogs have a pack system, and they have tools which allow them to get along. Fighting, and killing eachother, isn't productive to dogs, who need one another's help to hunt, raise young, and survive.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I want to be "sure" that I'm reading them correctly. I always need confirmation. I see to do quiet well, but I don't know if it's me thinking I know more than I really do. There's also a lot I may miss, but won't know it until I do some reading. 

I've always had dogs in my life. I really would be happiest at this time in my life on a large piece of land with lots of dogs. Dogs that like each other most of the time that is. <big grin>


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

I'll have to watch this after work - don't have time this morning.

I ran into a "dog trainer" down the street and when Griff was greeting her - she made a comment about "Oh no - you're not going to dominate me" - and I looked at her puzzled - not sure what she was getting at. I didn't detect anything unusual.

There's "dominance" and there "rudeness". We are working on Griff being more polite.  I notice now that he stops and waits for me when I bring him to the back door to go out and he waits for "permission" before he eats anything I drop in his food bowl. He is still a work in progress but coming along nicely. 

(And yes - he sleeps on my bed but not when I'm in it.) :bowl:


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## gold'nchocolate (May 31, 2005)

Ardeagold said:


> As a friend (with a good number of dogs) on another forum stated.."sometimes, when the dogs are out playing, it looks like a conga line! :lol: They're ALL mounting one another! Nobody is being dominant.....they're playing." :lol:


Hahaha...now that is funny!!! 
I have several books by both Ian Dunbar and Jean Donaldson and find their methods more to what I will do with my dogs, although I do use Cesar's _"cccchhhhtttt"_ noise and find it very effective in getting a dog's attention from across the room (as they are about to do something such as countersurf for the peanut butter sandwich that I just started making but then I went to get the jelly in the refrigerator  and also his _"no talk, no touch, no eye contact"_ method of having guests ignore a jumping dog as they come into the house. It worked on Biscuit the very first time we tried it!
Cesar works with a lot of *really* aggressive dogs so I'm not sure how the "lure methods" would work with these dogs.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

Yes, dominence does exist. There is a social Hiarchy in a dog pack as well as in a wolf pack. An no, dogs are not wolfs but there is a percentage yet left in the dogs by there ancester the wolf. And very much the same yet today in many things and it's all been noted if one will research. Infact I have somewhere here the dogs that are the highest to for something to do with wolfs, and I know the Golden Retriever is in that top ten.

But I would say not everything we see is dominence in our dogs, I don't think one can just look at one action alone and call it dominence, more things are looked at that go along with it at the time.

Funny you should mention this though, because just the other day Abby, my labby...lol up and decides to ride Kody as he was walking out the garage door with his fleece tug in his mouth, he of course totally ignored her and kept right on a walking as she was on two legs on him, company of course seen it....of course, right..lol anyway, first thing they said was, now thats "Dominence" right there! I didn't say a word because with everything at that moment one could surely see that was not dominence at all, just total play.

As for the people such as Ian Dunbar, and Jean Donaldson I have there books, I also have Monks of New Skeete and CM's. I am a firm believer that no one method fits all dogs so reason behind all. I am always very open to both methods of training and have used both methods in the past as in the future.

I think there is a lot of jealousy out there because CM has proven his experience, not science does infact stand up and he has that pack of 40-50 rehabilitated aggressive dogs to prove himself. I think science is great, but science has away of changing often where experience can outlast it especially when were working with the dogs which there really is so little new studies out there.

In many cases science has failed our dogs, look at all the aggressive dogs that are put down on a daily basis do too our tests designed by those with there degree's. Some are put down for something as simple as food aggression.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I am glad you can see that many things are just play, or whatnot, I am convinced of the same...


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I haven't looked at this yet. I wonder about the different between dominating and being alpha. I would think off the top of my head one would gain leadership by force and bullying, and the other by respect?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Force and bullying are not always needed to be a "leader" to your dog. My parents were positive leaders to me and they didn't bully me or force me to do anything. I think it's the same for doggies, too.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Force and bullying are not always needed to be a "leader" to your dog. My parents were positive leaders to me and they didn't bully me or force me to do anything. I think it's the same for doggies, too.


Oh, I hear you. I am alpha in my house and haven't needed to be a bully. I can't tell you how many sticker charts we had in our home just to get my youngest to brush his teeth or get into the car! 

I think that was part of my point, but once again not explained very well. One can be alpha and a leader, but one does not need to use brut force.

I understand your view completely.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Exactly... well said  I still believe, even AMONG dogs themselves, it is a mutual respect thing. My Whippet senior male is the obvious "alpha" even at a dog park full of dogs we ahve never met, they cow to him pathetically, and he never has to get nasty... they just read his language, perhaps even his age, and respect him- it's odd, but true. I think MAYBE, and it's just a theory, that they also see my other dogs who clearly see him as a leader, and can tell from a distance that this is a "pack" and he is the alpha male. My dogs do behave as a pack and even at the park on a busy day tend to play only among themselves and so forth. Very interesting to watch.


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## Luvinmygoldens (Jul 16, 2007)

I've always questioned the wisdom in the notion that dogs hump as a sign of dominance. My dogs don't do it often, but when they do they take turns during playtime. I shut them down pretty quick but NOT because I think the instigator is trying to dominate the other. I just don't want them to do it. Mine seem to do it more in playfulness than domination. I really couldn't tell you who is the boss between my two! They can eat from each other's bowls(if I let them but Cooper would consume WAY too much, LOL!), they drink at the same time, they can steal toys from the other, they can take bully sticks from each other(if they can catch each other that is). I just can't tell at this point. And they both know that "I" am the leader of the pack. Also, I've heard that jumping up on a visitor can be an aggressive sign of dominance. I also have to question this because that is Cooper's WORST habit that we're really trying to work on right now and I KNOW that he's NOT doing it out of aggression or dominance. He totally LOVES people. He is such a lovebug and he just doesn't seem to have an aggressive bone in his body. I don't even know if the pup knows how to growl! Seriously! I just don't believe he's trying to be dominant over someone when he does this. Anyway, I'm certainly no expert but the "dominance" thing does seem to get out of hand sometimes to me.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Commanding respect is so much different than demanding respect (even though the words are interchangable). One you give into willingly, the other you give into with reluctance. (IMO)


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## Luvinmygoldens (Jul 16, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> they just read his language, perhaps even his age, and respect him- it's odd, but true.


I actually don't think it's that odd. Just like you can see a human stranger walk in a door and kind of "read" them (their confidence, or lack of, their demeanor, etc) I think it's the same with dogs. Your whippet boy probably walks in that park with an air of confidence and wisdom and the dogs read him immediately and take note.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Good way to put it. I respect many people simply because... they deserve it IMO... others I fear... I can tell you which ones I most enjoy being around...


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

Looking at the title of this thread, something just hit me. In the "Dog Whispering" world, if you are referring to CM does not teach Dominence. He teaches "Leadership". There is a very big difference.

Since it just hit me, I thought i'd add it in.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Yup. It's a reference to CM... in that often, his take on the dogs is that THEY are dominant. In other training circles, dominance is thought to be a widely mis-used behavioral description.

Couple examples - not necessairly from CM, but in general:

"If the dog walks in front, he's dominating you..."
"Pushy dogs are dominant."


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

LOL, the dogs CM works with many times are the "Dominent leaders", placement given of course by there owners. He doesn't work with well behaved dogs, he is working with dogs with some serious issues and many come from fighting backgrounds such in the case of some of his pits, some very aggressive towards humans and dogs, etc. Usually when CM is called in, everyone else has failed not only the dogs, but in helping the owners, many are told the best thing for there dogs by vets and other trainers is too put them down, many won't even touch the dogs. You let dogs such as what he works with, that others will not even touch walk in front, you are not only endangering the public, but also endangering the other dogs it comes upon. They are the dominent dogs and this is where the leadership skills of the walk comes in with these dogs. Of course, this very same leadership can also be of good to other dogs as well, it is done with by using the dogs own psycology, not by training. *In the dog world only the Alpha, leader is in front, not the second in command, or the third, it is the "Alpha". This is what he teaches, it is not that dogs out in front are dominent dogs, what he is saying is dogs out in front are taking on the leadership position when going by dog psycology and pack order which the dogs fully understand.*

If one looks at the Katrina dogs, these dogs were actually falling into packs, and in one case rotties and sheperds were following a "Beagle". So you see, it isn't size that leads the pack. Size has nothing to do with pack leadership or dominence. But it has all do with "Leadership". This is what CM teaches. He doesn't say all dogs out in front are dominent dogs.


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## Misslane&lois (Nov 18, 2007)

then... from your point of view... what does mean being dominant?
I don't know but Lois was a little dominant hehe, she is lois lane, man! hehehe
So... I laugh al ot with her because of her behaviaour, and i adore her, i don't think your pet is dominant with you.. because i am sure that our pets love us a lot


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

An example of dominence behavior in a dog would be it humping an owners leg. That is a sign of dominence in a dog, it needs to be corrected.


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