# Show worthy??????



## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

I am not into conformation stuff, but I would say go to a CCA with him, and see what they have to say.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

well AKC is probably out based on type... I just had a handler look at one of my English Boys who has color and she still said he was too English for hte AKC and not to bother down here even though she loved him structurally he is to different... 
beyond that your photo is not good ... I would love to see a front forward shot a rear shot and a true side stack.... your picture is at a weird angle 
even with a true picture without getting a hand on your dog it would be impossible to really feel what exists... 

however I would rule the AKC out right off the top and think about CKC or UKC (I have a boy doing very well in the UKC) and then if you want us to take a look get us some better pictures... 

just my two cents


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## Java (Aug 9, 2010)

Thank you for your honest opinion


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I don't know where you live in Michigan, but when I wanted to know if my girl would do well in the ring I went to people I knew that knew about showing. One was the owner of Selli's dad (and the breeder of her mom), another was Marcia Schler. I also had her evaluated by a handler who owns Goldens. They figured I could finish her if I put enough money into showing and used a good handler. Not being a wealthy person by any means, working on weekends and being unwilling to send her out with a handler, I decided a CCA was good and I would focus on agility.

I know that you have previously said that your dog was bred in Canada and I believe one side of his pedigree is European, am I right? If your dog looks like a European Golden, it will be much harder to get an AKC championship on him regardless on how well he would do in Canada or Europe.

If you can tell us the general vicinity where you live, we can guide you to a local Golden Retriever club. Anyone interested in showing would be very smart to get involved with their local club.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

not an expert, but I feel pretty well schooled in what the standard is for goldens in the CKC and AKC (almost identical), but what flies in the CKC ring differs some from the AKC. 

generally, the CKC is a good starting point, especially for a foreign dog (or foreign look) such as yours. 

I can't say whether he would do well or not by just those pictures. 

-A good stacked picture, 
--front view, side, and back..

-a head shot

but without putting your hands on the dog, still its hard to stay..

Another thing which is HUGE is movement. Movement shows the grace of a dog. How well they are put together (soundness) which is very important. 

Find a local show breeder, that can have first hand impression, that will be the best judgement. 

The CCA idea is good. But there is the aspect of the show ring, that you might not learn. Because along with conformation in the ring, type is very important as well, especially in the AKC. (and with individual judges).


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## Java (Aug 9, 2010)

Macomb County is where I live.....about 40 Miles north of Detroit. There are not very many breeders in Michigan that I know of that have the English/European/Canadian type. Not sure where I could take him for someone to actually give me an honest opinon, with actually touching him etc., since so many of the breeders are for the AKC standard look and not the CKC.

I am appreciating everyones feedback.


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## Java (Aug 9, 2010)

Also if he can be shown, I am going to have a professional handler show him as I have a two and three year old which makes showing somewhat impossible


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Get with somebody at Fort Detroit GRC...? They are based in Rochester Hills and their specialty is in Port Huron every year... 

They should be able to point you in the right direction as far as a handler, as well as conformation classes you can be taking (they aren't that expensive, usually just drop in, your dog needs to know how to walk nicely on leash + stack/stand + be used to being handled by people he doesn't know). 

You can't use a handler (I don't think) in the UKC and there you would either have to 
travel or go into ontario or other states for shows because there aren't that many here. 

If you are breeding your dog or have plans to do so (I'm going by your banner), I would hope you become a member of a golden club anyway and get involved.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

the akc standards and CKC standards are not almost identical... a big difference is the section on color... the CKC is much more accepting of lighter dogs which your boy obviously is... 

the suggestion of seeing marcia schlehr is a great one...


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## Java (Aug 9, 2010)

*Pictures....*

Ok, Well here are some pictures anyway. Let me know what you think. I have applied for the GRCA and plan on applying at my local club. I will breed my male and female as long as both pass OFA Hips and Elbows, and have heart and eye clearences.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I can't get in to see your larger pictures

Now you realize that there is more to being a responsible breeder than just doing your basic clearances right??? 

when I read this I am a bit concerned...


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## Java (Aug 9, 2010)

Please let me know your concerns. I have been educating myself for a few years now, but the more I know the better. I hope you don't think I am trying to make money, as I know there is hardly no money in responsible breeding. I am truly doing this for the love of goldens, and dogs on general. And also wanting to better the breed by producing healthy goldens as close to the AKC/ckc standard as possible.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Java said:


> Please let me know your concerns. I have been educating myself for a few years now, but the more I know the better. I hope you don't think I am trying to make money, as I know there is hardly no money in responsible breeding. I am truly doing this for the love of goldens, and dogs on general. And also wanting to better the breed by producing healthy goldens as close to the AKC/ckc standard as possible.



I dont think that at all actually... It does seem from your website that you are trying so let me start there... 

I dont know exactlly how to put what I want to say... sometimes it is so much easier to talk it out... and explain... but I guess my feeling is that you are putting the cart before the horse a little bit. 

I went and looked at your pedigrees on your website.... and I guess my question for you is 

why are you breeding sophie to Bo? I guess that is my question... lets just say that hopefully all the clearances come back... remember you need hips, eyes, heart (cardiologist) and elbows and they all come back clear... 

I would want to ask why put those two dogs together? 

you came to the board asking if he was show quality which tells me that you don't have a clear picture of the breed standards in the US or in Canada... and that means you have alot to learn about structure and don't have a good mentor (a really important thing) and that you might not really know how to look at your dog and feel a front or an upper arm or a shoulder layback .... and this is not bad it is something that we all have to learn at some point... but if you are not necessarily clear on these things... then how do you really know that sophie and Bo are a good match and that he has what she needs and she has what he needs... 

the goal is to improve the next generation to have the puppies be better than the parents but if you are not clear on the ins and outs of structure and I honestly still ahve alot to learn then how do you work to improve the next generation... 

I dont know if this makes sense... basically the best dog for a bitch may or may not be the one ya got... 

then add in to the mix that you have two fairly young dogs that are not mature yet... or my impression is that they are fairly young.. well that just adds to making it harder... 

I am not trying to be difficult or mean but honestly when I had my first litter many years ago... I got an email from a long time flat coat person asking me why I was doing what I was doing??? very similarlly to what I am asking you... she wasn't being mean either but she wanted to know that I understood the structure and that I had reasons to put them together... 

who are you linebreeding on... is it a total outcross ... if you are linebreeding what is in the dogs that you are linebreeding on... this can be very difficult to find out wiht english dogs because they are not here... 

so I guess those are my immediate thoughts... 

I would like to see more pictures...and again I am not trying to be mean... and I hope that came across... I have been told I am not the most tactful of sorts

S


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Shalva's post is excellent. I think finding a mentor should be priority to showing your dogs. They can help you decide if showing will be successful. Perhaps if it is not, you can start with a new show puppy that has the potential to succeed made possible with your mentor's help. Join the local club now, before you even think the words "having a litter." People are more likely to help you now before you begin experimenting in breeding because you aren't set in your ways (incorrect or otherwise) and are willing to learn. I also think keeping in contact with someone like Shalva would be beneficial to you as she has been in goldens of the English type for some time.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Java said:


> Ok, Well here are some pictures anyway. Let me know what you think. I have applied for the GRCA and plan on applying at my local club. I will breed my male and female as long as both pass OFA Hips and Elbows, and have heart and eye clearences.


I would suggest that you take your time. Do some sort of competitive venue, whether conformation (you are close enough to be able to show in Canada, and UKC), even get an AKC CCA eval, and do obedience or basic field. Don't make a breeding just because you have a male and female, even if both have all clearances - there needs to be a good reason behind the mating - genotypically or phenotypically. 
Many of us have had several dogs that we'd hoped to be our foundation, and as we learned, realized that they were not our best bet.

Shalva has given good advice.


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## Java (Aug 9, 2010)

I guess in a way I am looking for a mentor. That is why I am on here all the time asking questions. I am interested more in the English Type look (like that was hard to figure out)...... I do contact Karin at Kyon Kennels quite a bit so she does help, but some of the English type breeders close to me don't exactly fit into what I am trying to do. They are more quantity over quality. They didn't exactly want to answer a buck of newbies questions.

So, if you ladies will help point me in the right direction I would be grateful. But once again, whatever direction it is my time away from home is limited as I do have the 3 and 2 yr. Old.

As far as them being a great pair I do have a lot to learn but I do know My female is hyper and my male is calm so hopefully that might even out the pups. Also my male is a little on the too tall side, and my female is on the short side, like too short. Also my females tail lays correctly, where my male might be close to having a gay tale, so I think this would even thongs out.

Hopefully I am on the right track.


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## Java (Aug 9, 2010)

*CCA Eval.*

What exactly do they look for in the eval.?


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Java said:


> I guess in a way I am looking for a mentor. That is why I am on here all the time asking questions. I am interested more in the English Type look (like that was hard to figure out)...... I do contact Karin at Kyon Kennels quite a bit so she does help, but some of the English type breeders close to me don't exactly fit into what I am trying to do. They are more quantity over quality. They didn't exactly want to answer a buck of newbies questions.
> 
> So, if you ladies will help point me in the right direction I would be grateful. But once again, whatever direction it is my time away from home is limited as I do have the 3 and 2 yr. Old.
> 
> ...


those are certainly things to look at but remember if you breed tall to short you won't get medium... you will get some tall puppies and some short puppies... none of which is the standard... gay tails are hard to get rid of and you can't tell which puppies will have a gay tail and which won't... and we can talk about temperament more... 
those are the most obvious things you will look at but there is a ton more... I have to head out right now but I am happy to answer questions etc.... 
you can always email me through my website as well and I will help where I can 
s


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## Java (Aug 9, 2010)

Thank you soooo much. I appreciate all your help and I will be e-mailing you


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I am in Michigan (Traverse City) and while I am not breeding the English style, I have shown for about a million years, and have also judged quite a few Specialty Sweeps, including entries with many of the style of dog you prefer, in fact, I've put them up.
I'm happy to help with breeding/handling questions, as well.


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## Java (Aug 9, 2010)

Thank You.. I will take you up on that. Bo is getting his prelims done on hips and elbows on the 18th so I will let you know what I find out.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Java said:


> Thank You.. I will take you up on that. Bo is getting his prelims done on hips and elbows on the 18th so I will let you know what I find out.


We are going to Lansing on the 18th for annual CERF exams, taking 7 dogs. (Really, it's all just an excuse to shop at Pottery Barn, Coldwater Creek, and Williams and Sonoma, and to eat at PF Chang's )


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## Java (Aug 9, 2010)

Ha...oooohhh I LOVE pottery barn!! We are building a new home right now and I can think of tons of things I might need. Seven dogs....that should be interesting


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Java said:


> Ha...oooohhh I LOVE pottery barn!! We are building a new home right now and I can think of tons of things I might need. Seven dogs....that should be interesting


Always fun. : They all love Dr. Ramsey, though. So do we! And taking that many does buffer our spending, as there isn't enough room to bring back _too _much!


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Don't rule out people from Fort Detroit Golden Retriever Club. They may not breed English style Goldens, but so many of them show in Canada and they know a good English type Golden when they see one. 

Marcia Schler actually wrote the book about what a Good Golden looks like or illustrated it at least and we are SOOOO lucky to have her here in SE Michigan. She is known and respected throughout Europe and England so I would take her advice about if my Golden were breed worthy. Marcia is associated with Marshbanks Golden Retriever Club which is based in Jackson but has events throughout the area.

Meeting with Point Gold would also be a great idea. Although what wins or even what the standard allows is different in the US and Canada (and in Europe), a person that really knows Goldens can tell a good Golden regardless of type.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Amen to that... a person that really knows Goldens can tell a good Golden regardless of type absolutely.... 

Marcia Schlehr is on the English goldens list as i recall and is a wonderful resource.... I would so seek her out if I lived in that area


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Shalva said:


> Amen to that... a person that really knows Goldens can tell a good Golden regardless of type absolutely....
> 
> Marcia Schlehr is on the English goldens list as i recall and is a wonderful resource.... I would so seek her out if I lived in that area


 
Marcia is very much into the English style of dog. Has been for a long time.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Marcia is very much into the English style of dog. Has been for a long time.


I agree. The point I wanted to make was that she is an integral to an AKC Golden club and is almost above the whole American/English split.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Java said:


> Also if he can be shown, I am going to have a professional handler show him as I have a two and three year old which makes showing somewhat impossible


It's a worthwhile experience to make an appointment with a good handler to look at your dog- maybe at a show or somewhere convenient. A good handler will be honest( sometimes painfully, lol). I do want to say that there is an English style bitch doing very well around here under certain judges. However, a pro who knows the judges in detail- their preference and hang ups- is very helpful for guidance Does your dog have full dentition- all his teeth and a correct bite? Is he in the height/weight standard? These and a zillion other key details are things we can't tell on the forum from a snapshot, so it is very hard to say.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> It's a worthwhile experience to make an appointment with a good handler to look at your dog- maybe at a show or somewhere convenient. A good handler will be honest( sometimes painfully, lol). I do want to say that there is an English style bitch doing very well around here under certain judges. However, a pro who knows the judges in detail- their preference and hang ups- is very helpful for guidance Does your dog have full dentition- all his teeth and a correct bite? Is he in the height/weight standard? These and a zillion other key details are things we can't tell on the forum from a snapshot, so it is very hard to say.



do you know who the bitch is... I am in the region and havent heard of any english style dogs doing well down here I would be interested in knowing who she is???


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

You have been given some great advice. And your new mentors, well, they are exactly what you should look for in a mentor. Good luck!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I was in similar shoes coming to the forum in a way. I spent so much time researching a specific puppy, and I truly thought I could have a wonderful breeding program since I had lived with at least three wonderful goldens all my life. I came and asked for criticism of the pup, fully expecting applause for her phenomenal pedigree and structure. The talented breeders here, very kindly, started to direct me to the Blue Book to study, send me structure quizzes by email, had me write notes in the GR News, and also let me know well, your pup is very straight in the stifle, well she probably isnt a show prospect. . . Did I know what an outcross is- the strengths and weaknesses? The potential gifts/ dangers of linebreeding? So many things. . .They had my respect, so I had to listen. It is almost 5 years later since I began my research on breeding and I have learned an infinite amount, but I am still not ready to take the enormous step of breeding my own litter.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> I was in similar shoes coming to the forum in a way. I spent so much time researching a specific puppy, and I truly thought I could have a wonderful breeding program since I had lived with at least three wonderful goldens all my life. I came and asked for criticism of the pup, fully expecting applause for her phenomenal pedigree and structure. The talented breeders here, very kindly, started to direct me to the Blue Book to study, send me structure quizzes by email, had me write notes in the GR News, and also let me know well, your pup is very straight in the stifle, well she probably isnt a show prospect. . . They had my respect, so I had to listen. It is almost 5 years later since I began my research on breeding and I have learned an infinite amount, but I am still not ready to take the enormous step of breeding my own litter.


 
Too many rush into things, and think that just because they have an intact dog and an intact bitch, maybe even with very nice pedigrees, sometimes even pointed or finished, that they should breed them. Sure. They could. But, would it be the _best _breeding that they could do? Or, the _easiest _breeding that they could do, since they own them both?
As an example, right now I have a beautiful male Pointer. He is lovely, he's pointed with very limited showing, and his pedigree is rich. I also have a lovely bitch, who is a daughter of a Top 5 dog, fantastic pedigree, birdy, and a mover like I dream of. On paper the two would be a nice breeding, but I'm not sure that he is best for her. I'm still looking. I also will do (gasp) hips/elbows, hearts, CERF eyes, and thyroid on both, even though the Pointer people think I'm nuts. I don't care. As has become my credo - "just because you don't look for it it doesn't mean it's not there."
Shoot, I may NEVER breed EITHER of them. And I don't plan to call myself a Pointer breeder UNTIL (or IF) I have bred a litter or two.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Shoot, I may NEVER breed EITHER of them. And I don't plan to call myself a Pointer breeder UNTIL (or IF) I have bred a litter or two.


Then would you change your screen name to PointPointer :?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

DNL2448 said:


> Then would you change your screen name to PointPointer :?


 

Hmmm... maybe I should rethink this. I should breed one of the Goldens to one of the Pointers. I'd have Gold Pointing Retrievers. Perfect. I'd teach them to go for some of the big old blingy jewelry that judges wear - and fetch 'em up for me!


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Too many rush into things, and think that just because they have an intact dog and an intact bitch, maybe even with very nice pedigrees, sometimes even pointed or finished, that they should breed them. Sure. They could. But, would it be the _best _breeding that they could do? Or, the _easiest _breeding that they could do, since they own them both?
> As an example, right now I have a beautiful male Pointer. He is lovely, he's pointed with very limited showing, and his pedigree is rich. I also have a lovely bitch, who is a daughter of a Top 5 dog, fantastic pedigree, birdy, and a mover like I dream of. On paper the two would be a nice breeding, but I'm not sure that he is best for her. I'm still looking. I also will do (gasp) hips/elbows, hearts, CERF eyes, and thyroid on both, even though the Pointer people think I'm nuts. I don't care. As has become my credo - "just because you don't look for it it doesn't mean it's not there."
> Shoot, I may NEVER breed EITHER of them. And I don't plan to call myself a Pointer breeder UNTIL (or IF) I have bred a litter or two.


I sent the original poster a long winded pm explaining alot of this stuff.... that the best dog ain't necessarily the one ya got etc etc.... I also suggested pulling the breeder thing off her website etc etc.... 

I do think that she wants to learn so we shall see


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Hmmm... maybe I should rethink this. I should breed one of the Goldens to one of the Pointers. I'd have Gold Pointing Retrievers. Perfect. I'd teach them to go for some of the big old blingy jewelry that judges wear - and fetch 'em up for me!


Hey, that sounds great! Now to find me one of them there Pointers! I wants me some o'dat judge jewlery!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

DNL2448 said:


> Hey, that sounds great! Now to find me one of them there Pointers! I wants me some o'dat judge jewlery!


 
If you have not seen it already, check out Dog Show Fashion Police on FaceBook. HAHAHAHAHA!


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## elly (Nov 21, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> If you have not seen it already, check out Dog Show Fashion Police on FaceBook. HAHAHAHAHA!


You all make me laugh...thank you! :smooch:


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## Java (Aug 9, 2010)

Well I thank everyone for there advice. I did have an AKC judge look at both dogs and got her feedback. For now I am going to have my handler show my male in Canada and hopefully he will get his Canadian Championship. If that is accomplished then my next goal will be to decide what to do with my female. She is only a year, but a little on the short side for the standard, so not sure if I will be showing her or not. Hmmmm....


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