# What is a" high prey drive" exactly?



## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

When I posted that Daisy has a high prey drive, I meant that Daisy will chase animals in the wild, catch them if she can and kill them. I'm quite certain she would eat them ... if she could catch them. I think her high prey drive is what led her to fishing. Fish she can catch. And she would fish all day long everyday if she could 

But I'm not sure how that fits together with the "soft mouth" retrieval skills. Daisy definitely does not have a soft mouth. Maybe it has to be trained to some extent? Do dogs that excel in the field retrieving birds and ducks naturally have a high prey drive?

Good question, Debles!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I think it can be confusing. I have a dog (Whippet) that kicks ASS in lure coursing, and is a screaming banshee on the field waiting his turn to run the plastic lure he thinks is a rabbit. Yet, he can go off leash anywhere, and will not chase a cat or rabbit unless I give him permission (which of course I never would with a cat! But I often do with wildlife out on walks, and he's made plenty of kills. I know this bothers some, sorry- but he IS a Whippet, bred to run and course, and my dogs do eat what they kill, in the rate instance this does happen. I am talking over a ten year life so far when I say plenty of kills). This dog is a Whippet- a dog BRED to course game. High drive? I'd say so looking at him making a kill of a rabbit or running a lure. But an uncontrollable nut who can't go off leash? No way... also this dog is 100% cat safe, even with kittens, even with cats outside that are not mine. 

Then I have had a dog (another sighthound, not a Whippet) who wouldn't run the lure but would try to kill any cat, even indoors, if the cat wasn't moving. High prey drive? I don't know- he was worthless as a lure courser... and wouldn't even look at squirrels on walks. But he was a cat killer.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

That's interesting, Jenna. Daisy is definitely a threat to wild animals but not cats. She'll chase cats but she would never hurt one. How does she know the difference?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Oh I will add that I had a Golden who loved to lure course! She had a soft mouth and did not chase cats. But she did chase (and catch) birds sometimes. Francine has no interest in any of the above... but she plays ball.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I'm not sure how Rigby and Epic know either... but they know!!! Once Rigby chased a cat a few feet then realized it was a cat... he immediately just backed off, then approached it calmly wagging his tail as if to say sorry, I thought you were a bunny!


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## jealous1 (Dec 7, 2007)

Summer LOOOOOOOOOVES to hunt and chase chipmunks (it used to be squirrels until she found chipmunks). She has caught a couple and will kill them but does not seem to have an inclination to eat them. I am sure if she saw a cat she would chase but not sure what she would do when it turned around and confronted her!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I mentioned in the other thread that both my boys have no prey drive and that is true. They will chase the squirrels in the backyard and birds too. But, when we have had baby birds in the backyard, they will run up to them, but will not attack or kill them. Jasmine is the same way.

I had a corgi/chow who had an extremely high prey drive. If anything got into the backyard that she could catch, she would kill it in an instant. She would catch it, shake it to death and walk away. Luckily she never caught any of the neighbors cats, though it still broke my heart when she would kill the baby birds and moles. I never even realized that she had that prey drive until I brought home my last adopted cat. It took a year to desensitize her enough to safely bring the cat out of the bedroom. For that year, she would whine, shake and salivate every time she caught sight of that specific cat. We had 4 other cats at the time that she left alone.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I am hoping some field/hunting/breeding experts put in their opinions.

My question is related to the whole reason why goldens were bred to begin with , to retrieve and not "hurt" what they retrieve. I wouldn't think a "high prey drive" would mesh with that goal.

Even though my boys sometimes chase birds, squirrels and rabbits, I don't know if they'd know what to do with one if they caught it. I'm sure that would be different if they were starving. But my current two boys were bred for obedience , not hunting, even though they both are great retrievers and have retrieved downed birds in the field without hurting them (when hunting with DH, not on a hike. : )


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Interesting... I never thought about it, but Salukis bring the game they catch (through coursing, running it down, and killing it) back to their handlers usually.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

> The prey drive refers to the hunting, killing and feeding behavior that dogs have inherited from their wolf ancestry. When a dog is exhibiting behaviors such as looking intently at another animal, tracking in the woods, standing still and listening, perhaps cocking its head so that the location of the sound can be more accurately ascertained, barking, chasing, jumping, tearing and shaking objects, digging and burying, all are examples of the prey drive.


http://www.barkbytes.com/training/drives.htm

I've also read that dogs who "kill" their toys may also have a high prey drive.



> Soft-mouth: A soft-mouthed dog is needed to ensure that retrieved game is fit for the table. A soft mouthed dog will pick up and hold game softly but firmly on the retrieve. Dogs that unnecessarily drop birds, crunch on, chew or even eat the bird before delivery to the handler are considered “hard-mouthed” or are described as having “mouth problems”. While training can overcome most “mouth problems” a dog with an inherently soft-mouth is more desirable when starting the training process.


I think Daisy has a mouth problem : 

So I wonder if hard mouth and prey drive are correlated? Maybe too strong of a prey drive is not an acceptable golden retriever characteristic?

Sorry, Debles ... I'm just thinking out loud. I guess I have the same question as you now. How is hard mouth and soft mouth related to prey drive. Obviously a soft mouth is more desirable in a golden retriever but how much of that is related to early training, or are we looking at desirable and non-desirable breeding qualities now?


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Thanks JoEllen! That explained alot and I have the same questions as you do.

I think a soft mouth is bred.

If a dog has a hard mouth or a strong prey drive, I think it would be very difficult to "train" that out of them. I think the drive would overpower training. Even if you used a shock collar!(which I don't believe in personally)

Our Max had a strong drive to retrieve and could be somewhat hard headed but he had a very soft mouth as I said earlier. Watchng him retrieve a live bird and not hurt it at all was a sight to see! He didn't even give them a heart attack and birds hearts beat very fast!!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I'd like to hear from someone who hunts with their golden retriever if their dog(s) know to handle fowl different than they would a rabbit or squirrel or whatever. If you train a soft mouth, does it transfer to all things they hold in their mouth?


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Debles said:


> I am hoping some field/hunting/breeding experts put in their opinions.
> 
> My question is related to the whole reason why goldens were bred to begin with , to retrieve and not "hurt" what they retrieve. I wouldn't think a "high prey drive" would mesh with that goal.


I think there's some inconsistancy with how terms are used and applied. A dog can have a high prey drive but not actually make a kill or in the retriever case mangle the bird. What is normal prey drive for a whippet is not for a golden - goldens shouldn't be hunting down critters with the intention of killing them (cat, squirrel, duck, sheep, whatever). Whippets should absolutely be chasing and killing bunnies; border collies should have a keen interest in livestock - but shouldn't want to eat the sheep. 

The other factor here is pack drive - loosely defined by most people as a desire to maintain his pack - to work within one or to be solo...A high prey drive dog with a high pack drive will want to chase kitties or bunnies but will call off them if the pack asks him to do so...

Agility people and field people don't use the terms in the same way - and Pet people are usually WAY off in their prey drive concepts...a dog that chases a cat might not have prey drive at all - he could very well be bored (not enough exercise/mental stimulation) or he could just be a bratty puppy with no manners.

For what it's worth I have one golden with zip for prey drive - ever seen a golden try to entice a skunk to play - and not get sprayed? He also has a moderate pack drive. My other dog has a HIGH prey drive and let to his own devices will chase squirrels, chipmunks, birds, bunnies - and will catch them (he has an amazing ability to stalk birds like a cat or a pointer) as soon as they are caught he brings them (or tries to) completely unharmed to hand (they are a little damp though). Or in a couple of unfortuneate instances released wild bunnies in the house...

There are two other drives that factor in here to - defense/fight and defense/flight - lots of factors at work here and can't be boiled down to a nugget. 

Erica


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Cool- thanks! I guess by that theory one could say my Whippets, both of whom are coursing freaks, rabbit killers, but cat safe and would NEVER run a rabbit without permission (I can call them off... and the old one actually looks at me and waits for permission, though he quivering with desire when he does it!) has both prey AND pack drive?


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

My original thread was directed about goldens.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

All of mine will kill rabbits, birds, squirrels, and cats, for the most part whatever enters my yard alive wont go back out alive. They always bring me there kill....depending the mood there in, some times they will eat it and other times they wont.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

> goldens shouldn't be hunting down critters with the intention of killing them (cat, squirrel, duck, sheep, whatever)


does this include fish ??


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## dannyra (Aug 5, 2008)

My thoughts are you'd want a Golden with a good prey drive out in the field. Just because they have the drive to catch something, doesn't mean they will kill it. You want them to be able to find that down bird by scent in the thick brush, that kind of tracking I would say falls down into the prey drive category. Also if I wing a pheasant, which are fast running ground birds too. I'd want the dog to be able to catch that bird and bring it back to me.

In my mind prey drive and soft/hard mouth are exclusive from each other.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

So I take it then that hard-mouth is a breed fault in a golden retriever? Is it common or uncommon? Is it almost always trainable or a bad sign from the start?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Prey is defined as the instinctive behavior to pursue and capture prey. There are 5 steps - search, sight-stalk, chase, grab bite, kill bite. Certain breeds are bred to have a specific level of such drive based on the job that they were designed to do. Obviously, some jobs would require the complete sequence, others only part. ie herding dogs would need stalk and chase, but not grab and bite to prevent wounding stock. Our Goldens need high search and chase, but but low bite.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I will say that Danny has a hard mouth and Jasper has a soft mouth. Sometimes Jasper drops something he is carrying for me because he has such a soft mouth. Danny tries to kill his toys, but has no prey drive. His toy killing is more that he has a ton of energy that he has to get out and that's part of how he drains some out of himself. Jasper would never even kill a toy. They are polar opposites in energy and behaviors.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

How do you breed low bite? Or do you train it?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Much of it is genetic, and much of it is social. Puppies removed from their littermates too early do not learn bite inhibition from their siblings, and puppies who are allowed to be mouthy often have problems. Early socialization with other dogs and people is critical as well as learning good manners early.
Responsible breeding includes knowing the ancestry as regards temperament, retrieving skills, bite inhibition, etc, along with structure, movement, and genetic health clearances.


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## sharlin (Feb 26, 2007)

Pretty interesting definition:

In dog training, prey drive can be used as an advantage because dogs with strong prey drive are also willing to pursue moving objects such as toys, which can then be used to encourage certain kinds of behavior, such as that of greyhound racing or the speed required in dog agility. The prey drive can be an important component of pet dog training, obedience training and schutzhund as well. Games such as fetch and tug-of-war, can be an effective motivator and reward for learning.
In all predators the prey drive follows an inevitable sequence: the search, the eye-stalk, the chase, the grab bite, and the kill bite. In wolves the prey drive is complete and balanced. In different breeds of dog certain of these five steps have been amplified or reduced by human-controlled selective breeding, for various purposes. The search aspect of the prey drive, for example, is very valuable in detection dogs such as bloodhounds and beagles. The eye-stalk is a strong component of the behaviors used by herding dogs, who find herding its own reward. The chase is seen most clearly in racing dogs, while the grab-bite and kill-bite are valuable in the training of terriers. In many breeds of dog, prey drive is so strong that the chance to satisfy the drive is its own reward, and extrinsic reinforcers are not required to compel the dog to perform the behaviour.
 
A Border Collie herding. This behaviour is an example of modified prey drive


Certain aspects of the prey drive can be a disadvantage in some dogs. In retrievers for example, the dog is expected to chase prey and bring it back to the human hunter, but not bite or damage it. Herding dogs must exhibit the stalking and chasing aspects of prey drive, but should have strongly inhibited grab bite and kill bite stages to prevent them wounding stock.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

> Much of it is genetic, and much of it is social. Puppies removed from their littermates too early do not learn bite inhibition from their siblings, and puppies who are allowed to be mouthy often have problems. Early socialization with other dogs and people is critical as well as learning good manners early.
> Responsible breeding includes knowing the ancestry as regards temperament, retrieving skills, bite inhibition, etc, along with structure, movement, and genetic health clearances.


Do any of your dogs turn out to be hard-mouthed? Or do they chase and kill small prey?

Daisy was not removed too early, I got her at 8 weeks. She was highly socialized as a puppy with both people and other dogs and she was not mouthy at all, not more than normal anyway. I don't remember it even being a problem.

She doesn't tear up any of her toys. Some toy's she's had for years. I think her hard-mouthiness is selective. She'll catch and kill a baby bunny but she'd never harm a 6 week old kitten.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Please excuse me if I keep coming back to this, I think this is fascinating!

So if you train a certain behavior over the course of many generations, you can expect it to show up naturally (as in genetic) when you breed from that background?


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> does this include fish ??


 Nah, fish are fair game 
Erica


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Debles said:


> My original thread was directed about goldens.


True, but I think that a discussion of prey drive limited to goldens isn't particularly good at helping people understand what prey drive is and why they might hear one thing in relation to a sight hound vs prey drive in a sporting breed...


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> Please excuse me if I keep coming back to this, I think this is fascinating!
> 
> So if you train a certain behavior over the course of many generations, you can expect it to show up naturally (as in genetic) when you breed from that background?


To some extent I think you would - however - in any given litter you're going to have individuals on either side of the spectrum for any given trait. Look at conformation for example - if you breed two CH parents from lines of CH ancestory will every puppy in that litter end up being breed ring prospects? Obviously no...the same thing happens in breeding performance dogs too - you can have a border collie pedigree packed with herding champion, strong working dogs and end up with a puppy that wants NO part of sheep...would we see a wolf with zero prey drive? Probably not - but some are going to be better hunters and more successful breeders as a result - and that's a natural population - add in the human selective factor and yeah - it's probable that two parents with soft mouths will produce a hard mouth - it's also possible to train a softer mouth (to some extent) - but I'd rather start with a soft mouthed dogs if I wanted them for hunting. 

The other part of that here is that there are super soft mouthed dogs that don't like to carry stuff - and soft mouthed dogs that LOVE to carry things around - which one do you think is easier to train for hunting?

Erica


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> Prey is defined as the instinctive behavior to pursue and capture prey. There are 5 steps - search, sight-stalk, chase, grab bite, kill bite. Certain breeds are bred to have a specific level of such drive based on the job that they were designed to do. Obviously, some jobs would require the complete sequence, others only part. ie herding dogs would need stalk and chase, but not grab and bite to prevent wounding stock. Our Goldens need high search and chase, but but low bite.


I have seen 4 of those behaviours in Wiggs and it was very instinctual from the first day that we got him. The only one he hasn't shown is the killing bite, but I don't doubt that he is capable of that with small animals. He is constantly sniffing, stalking, tracking and if given the opportunity will chase and grab and bite. I've seen him focused on a rabbit for an hour inside a pet store cage and it is very difficult to get him snap out of it.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

MurphyTeller said:


> To some extent I think you would - however - in any given litter you're going to have individuals on either side of the spectrum for any given trait. Look at conformation for example - if you breed two CH parents from lines of CH ancestory will every puppy in that litter end up being breed ring prospects? Obviously no...the same thing happens in breeding performance dogs too - you can have a border collie pedigree packed with herding champion, strong working dogs and end up with a puppy that wants NO part of sheep...would we see a wolf with zero prey drive? Probably not - but some are going to be better hunters and more successful breeders as a result - and that's a natural population - add in the human selective factor and yeah - it's probable that two parents with soft mouths will produce a hard mouth - it's also possible to train a softer mouth (to some extent) - but I'd rather start with a soft mouthed dogs if I wanted them for hunting.
> 
> The other part of that here is that there are super soft mouthed dogs that don't like to carry stuff - and soft mouthed dogs that LOVE to carry things around - which one do you think is easier to train for hunting?
> 
> Erica


 
Exactly. Careful, well thought out breedings incorporate the dogs that possess the traits that you are wanting to reproduce/strengthen. You could have a dog that had a particular issue and was able to be trained to not do whatever it is, but if you didn't want to have that issue again, you would not use that dog in your breeding program over another, equal in quality but withOUT that "issue". ie a dog with a gay tail, who has had that tail "fixed", still has a gay tail, and you wouldn't want to breed it.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

People are going to breed field Goldens that of course, are naturally somewhat gifted in this area, too- so selective breeding over time will weed out the dogs, in those breeding programs, with too much or too little of a given trait.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> People are going to breed field Goldens that of course, are naturally somewhat gifted in this area, too- so selective breeding over time will weed out the dogs, in those breeding programs, with too much or too little of a given trait.


I'm not so sure...Some of those dogs bred for fieldwork will ultimately be bred after excelling in some other venue (or to produce a litter of pets, etc). I know of a couple of MACH goldens that are from field lines but as individuals didn't have the ability or desire to work birds...then when those dogs are bred and someone looks at the pedigree and they've got really nice field lines PLUS the dog is a MACH or OTCH (whatever), they get some nice performance puppies and some of them might be outstanding in the field...then there are the outcrosses with field lines and conformation stock to try to improve some structure in a particular line... Plus there's more to it than genetics...the thought that conformation line dogs aren't particularly birdy - but more often IME, it's the owners of the conformation line dogs that aren't particularly birdy. 

Erica


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

edited out


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

MurphyTeller said:


> but more often IME, it's the owners of the conformation line dogs that aren't particularly birdy.
> 
> Erica


EXACTLY! OR, because of financial constraints, have chosen to or are only able to participate in one venue - none are inexpensive.
BUT - you'll find far more show champions with titles on the end of their names than you will find titled field dogs with CH's at the beginning of theirs. :curtain:


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Bock said:


> Here is a take of it from working at a doggie daycare and having to ban dog with a so called "high prey drive."
> 
> Sometimes a dog will freak out or start screaming because a dog nipped it too hard or it hurt itself by pulling a muscle or whatever it may be. When they dog screams or yelps, those dog with high prey drive will attack and attempt to kill it. Simply survival of the fittest. There are dogs that when in any setting are PERFECT dogs, however once a dog screams the dogs high prey drive will drive it to attack the weak dog (and this happens a lot with other species in the wild). Of course once we see any hint of this those dogs with the high prey drive are banned. This of course does not mean they are bad dogs, just not suited for a daycare type setting.
> 
> Just wanted to share what the high prey drive meant to people in a daycare facility.


That particular behavior is NOT high prey drive - Those dogs are not hunting each other down for food or fun. What it sounds like to me is either a bully or an insecure dog that is looking to alter it's place in the pecking order. There's some pack dynamics at play - lots and lots of dogs forced to integrate with each other in a revolving door of other pack-mates. It's just not a good situation for most dogs. There are dogs that need down time away from other dogs and don't get it, there are dogs that are bullied but because they don't aggress it isn't managed...I could go on and on - all of which is why I'm personally not a fan of doggie daycare - but that bad/naughty behavior is not prey drive. 

Erica


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

Sorry but since I'm actually in that setting and see what goes on I'm going to have to totally disagree with you. We can just leave it at that. I will delete my previous post as to not confuse anyone who may not know what I am talking about.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Bock said:


> Sorry but since I'm actually in that setting and see what goes on I'm going to have to totally disagree with you. We can just leave it at that. I will delete my previous post as to not confuse anyone who may not know what I am talking about.


I do agree with you and I have seen it. Normally it is a dog with high prey drive and a desire to elevate their position in the pack. I personally think doggie daycare is a wonderful thing and can help socialize an undersocialized dog a lot! I strongly encouraged my mom to take her dog (who she adopted from me) to daycare to give him the socialization he needed. He learned a ton!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Now we're back to the question of what exactly is prey drive


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

Just wanted to clarify that my post was not in response to any post you have made, but a response to the post that was made after my initial post.

Anyway, yes what exactly is prey drive? I'm sure that's like asking what causes bloat...nobody knows, just maybe has an idea



fostermom said:


> I do agree with you and I have seen it. Normally it is a dog with high prey drive and a desire to elevate their position in the pack. I personally think doggie daycare is a wonderful thing and can help socialize an undersocialized dog a lot! I strongly encouraged my mom to take her dog (who she adopted from me) to daycare to give him the socialization he needed. He learned a ton!


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Shelley loves to rip apart toys,beds etc what ever she can get her mouth on she will try to distroy. She also loves to chase wild birds be it on land or in water, she does not like to fetch and bring back toys that much. She will fetch and bring back 3 times anymore then this she won't bother chasing a toy. Does this mean she has a high prey drive or low.

Einstein on the other hand loves to fetch and bring back toys will do it all day if you allowed him too. He will chase birds but only on command to do so. Einstein is soft mouthed he has only ever drawen blood from 1 dog that was my lab. I would think Einstein is low prey drive.


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## SoGolden (Jul 17, 2008)

*I'm staying North of the State Line!*



Maggies mom said:


> All of mine will kill rabbits, birds, squirrels, and cats, for the most part whatever enters my yard alive wont go back out alive. They always bring me there kill....depending the mood there in, some times they will eat it and other times they wont.


Wow, life in Missouri is rough! Sounds like dogs with Old West values. ROTFL


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

SoGolden said:


> Wow, life in Missouri is rough! Sounds like dogs with Old West values. ROTFL


LOL....They just dont like wild life in there yard....


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I measure Lucky's "prey-drive" by how far he drags me on my elbows after spotting a squirrel.

He is an obedient dog and wants to please us....but if his prey drive kicks in, the braincells are geared and its hard to break through.

He will kill birds and squirrels. And then he holds them gently, carries them gently and licks them and cuddles them like he does his toys. He treats them exactly as his toys frankly.

This drive to chase does not occur with children period.... or animals that do not run.


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

Good thread.
My .02 cents worth...
'Prey' drive brings to mind the definition of 'prey':
prey (pr)
n.
1. An animal hunted or caught for food; quarry.2. One that is defenseless, especially in the face of attack; a victim.
3. The act or practice of preying.
intr.v. preyed, prey·ing, preys 
1. To hunt, catch, or eat as prey: Owls prey on mice.2. To victimize or make a profit at someone else's expense.
3. To plunder or pillage.
4. To exert a baneful or injurious effect: Remorse preyed on his mind.

Our retrievers, then, in the field doing what they were bred for, should not exhibit a _prey_ drive, right? We the humans are killing the prey and asking them to simply bring it to us.
Dogs being dogs, in the multitude of ways that can be expressed, can and do have varying amounts of prey drive that is instinctual, since they are not that far removed from their ancestral history of surviving without humans to provide their food. 
So, is it training or instinct or genetic pre-disposition, that give us a retriever as opposed to a hunter???


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

> So, is it training or instinct or genetic pre-disposition, that give us a retriever as opposed to a hunter???


Exactly my question too.

I am not quick to believe that because Daisy has a "high prey drive" and will kill small wild animals, that her temperament or character is not up to the golden retriever standard. 

I'm more inclined to believe that training gives us the retriever.

I read somewhere once that golden retrievers more closely resemble the wolf in their behaviors than any other breed. I have no idea how true that is but I have certainly had a sense of Daisy as Hunter through the years. She's just not fast enough to catch animals. I'm glad we've found another outlet for her ... FISH!! 

By the way, Daisy must have somewhat of a soft mouth because when she catches the fish and brings them out of the water to spit them out, they're still flopping! I think it would be fairly easy to teach her how to "retrieve" fish for me ... I just don't have the heart to do that. She caught it, she can have it :wave:


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

"So, is it training or instinct or genetic pre-disposition, that give us a retriever as opposed to a hunter???"
__________________

You hit the nail on the head for me! That should have been my original question!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Debles said:


> "So, is it training or instinct or genetic pre-disposition, that give us a retriever as opposed to a hunter???"
> __________________
> 
> You hit the nail on the head for me! That should have been my original question!


After having raised a retreiving obsessed dog (shepard retriever mix) and now having Lucky who shows absolute distaste for the whole retrieving ordeal....I have to assume (my opinion) that fetch can be trained but for a working dog it needs to be genetic. 

My shep/retriever mix had pure joy and enthusiasm for fetching. Plus...he would chase squirrels but would STOP COLD in the middle of a chase and come to me if called. I'm just not sure Lucky could ever do that.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Prey is defined as the instinctive behavior to pursue and capture prey. There are 5 steps - search, sight-stalk, chase, grab bite, kill bite. Certain breeds are bred to have a specific level of such drive based on the job that they were designed to do. Obviously, some jobs would require the complete sequence, others only part. ie herding dogs would need stalk and chase, but not grab and bite to prevent wounding stock. Our Goldens need high search and chase, but but low bite.


To say that Goldens are the most like wolves of any breed is completely inaccurate. A wolf must possess TOTAL prey drey - and be strong in every aspect of the sequence. If a Golden were like a wolf, they would not bring game back to us - they woul chase it down, grab it, kill it, and eat it.

A Golden is not a "hunter" per se, but a hunting companion.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

So if my golden has hunting characteristics, which she does, is she less than desirable as a golden retriever, as far as the standard goes? Or less trained as a hunting companion?



> If a Golden were like a wolf, they would not bring game back to us - they woul chase it down, grab it, kill it, and eat it.


It doesn't appear to be uncommon that goldens will do just that, if they are not trained in the fine art of "retrieve."


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

A well bred retriever will exhibit retrieving instincts at a very young age - well before having been "trained in the fine art of retrieving". More often than not, as dog needs to be encouraged to retrieve as opposed to having to train it NOT to chase down and kill something.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

> More often than not, as dog needs to be encouraged to retrieve as opposed to having to train it NOT to chase down a kill something.


I didn't understand that last sentence ... can you clarify?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Some dogs are stronger natural retrievers than others. Those that are not may need to be trained/shaped into performing the behavior. Those dogs are far more common than dogs that you would have to teach not to chase down and kill something. Goldens should never have such a strong grab bite/kill bite instinct that you would have to do so.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I think the lines get very blurry when we have so many golden retrievers as companion pets, rather than trained field retrievers. 

Is the breed running amuk?


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

Retrieving needs to be clarified here too....I think. Alot of our dogs would retrieve an inanimate object all day. If we were throwing ducks or squirrels tho....would they continue to fetch it for us, lol?
I know, I made myself giggle over this mental image too, but its a valid thought. 
I think it falls mainly into the breed nature of Goldens to be 'biddable', plus the genetic pre-disposition to have a soft mouth and less predation instinct than other breeds.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

moverking said:


> Retrieving needs to be clarified here too....I think. Alot of our dogs would retrieve an inanimate object all day. If we were throwing ducks or squirrels tho....would they continue to fetch it for us, lol?
> I know, I made myself giggle over this mental image too, but its a valid thought.
> I think it falls mainly into the breed nature of Goldens to be 'biddable', plus the genetic pre-disposition to have a soft mouth and less predation instinct than other breeds.


 


Which then falls to Goldens being correctly and carefully bred, with what they were designed to do being kept in mind, and not making excuses for behaviors and temperaments which oppose those ideals simply because they are "pets", as well as lack of respect for the standard as regards appearance.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> I think the lines get very blurry when we have so many golden retrievers as companion pets, rather than trained field retrievers.
> 
> Is the breed running amuk?


Why would you want a dog with a strong grab bite/kill bite for a companion?


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Why would you want a dog with a strong grab bite/kill bite for a companion?


What do you consider strong? Daisy has killed one baby bunny in her lifetime, though I'm sure she would have killed more if she were faster or left to her own devices outside. And she's caught and killed more fish than I can count.

Is that considered strong grab bite/kill bite behavior?

If we are going to breed golden retrievers for what they are designed to do, then shouldn't we also be placing them into homes where they can do what they were bred to do?


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Originally Posted by *Pointgold*  
_Prey is defined as the instinctive behavior to pursue and capture prey. There are 5 steps - search, sight-stalk, chase, grab bite, kill bite. Certain breeds are bred to have a specific level of such drive based on the job that they were designed to do. Obviously, some jobs would require the complete sequence, others only part. ie herding dogs would need stalk and chase, but not grab and bite to prevent wounding stock. Our Goldens need high search and chase, but but low bite._
PointGold also wrote:To say that Goldens are the most like wolves of any breed is completely inaccurate. A wolf must possess TOTAL prey drey - and be strong in every aspect of the sequence. If a Golden were like a wolf, they would not bring game back to us - they woul chase it down, grab it, kill it, and eat it.

A Golden is not a "hunter" per se, but a hunting companion.

I so agree with all you have said... I have done a little searching on this subject before so I was looking through some of the stuff I saved and here are some links , quotes, and some comments I made earlier today from those links. I probably didn't say it as well as you but...


What is prey drive?

The basic predatory behaviors (called predatory motor patterns of dogs are

orient/eye/stalk/chase/grab-bite/kill-bite/dissect.

Not all breeds of dogs have a complete set of predatory motor patterns.

Motor patterns need to be reinforced the first time they appear. Not all of them, but many, if they are not reinforced during the onset period, drop out of the repertoire, never to appear again. 

from page 116 and page 118 of Dogs, A New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and Evolution by Raymond Coppinger and Lorna Coppinger.

Predatory sequence of the wolf

Orient- detecting the presence of prey and moving himself into position

Eye- he sits and watches

Stalk- gets closer and closer without detection

Chase/grab-bite/kill-bite- when within striking distance chases the prey down and goes in for the kill

Herding dog sequence
orient/eye/stalk/chase

Livestock guarding dog sequence
eye/bark

Hunters, Retrievers sequence
Orient/eye/stalk/chase/grab-bite

http://www.petential.co.uk/EMRA_Emotionality.pdf 

again we then have to read the above by Coppinger.


In fact behavior is not uniform within breeds, and any dog can bite. Moreover, aggression -- technically, behavior related to hunting, defense, and dominance and subordination -- is not synonymous with viciousness. Aggression that expresses itself as boldness and assertiveness in seeking and capturing objects (popularly called "prey drive") is desirable in working dogs, although not in family pets

So Long to Bad Dogs 

*Fixed Action Pattern (FAP)* is a sequence of coordinated movements that are performed together as a "unit" without interruption. Each FAP is triggered by a unique stimulus variously known as a *sign stimulus*, a *key stimulus*, or a *releaser*. A praying mantis striking at prey is a typical example. The releaser for this FAP is any movement by a small (prey-sized) object within striking distance. Once initiated, the mantis cannot change direction in mid-strike or abort the mission if the prey escapes. 

Other common examples of FAPs include courtship displays, hunting or food gathering, nest-building activities, and attack or escape movements. Unlike simple reflexes, FAPs may involve a whole-body response and often require a threshold level of internal readiness (drive).



http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/course/ent425/tutorial/Behavior/index.html


*Predation*

*Predation* is an interaction between organisms (animals) in which one organism captures and feeds upon another called the *prey*. The *predator* is usually the larger and stronger of the two. Predators are always either carnivores or omnivores. The prey might typically be a herbivore, but some predators feed on anything they can capture, including other predators.


Fixed Action Pattern
coordinated responses (often motor patterns) that have a fixed form and need not be learned. Within a species, different individuals will produce almost identical behavioral responses to a specific *sign stimulus*; once initiated FAPs continue until completed (=_Erbkoordination_) [see "motor programs" and "instinct"]
GLOSSARY of ETHOLOGY TERMS 


Again after breeding selection we have to take into the account of each dog is an individual and also whatever Fixed Action Patterns are innate if we don't reinforce the pattern may not follow correctly.

So some goldens may be more soft mouthed but without training and reinforcement they may end up with a harder mouth in the end.

This also goes to form follows function. Golden Retrievers over time look as they do because of what the breeders have selected for.... If breeders are no longer selecting for a functioning hunting retriever those traits will slowly change. 

Retrievers have an innant predatory sequence and those that want to continue with it will weed out those that are not in line with the sequence and the ones that are in line with that sequence should be encouraged/trained/reinforced to follow that sequence.

Those that truly want their dogs to hunt/retrieve will stop their retrievers from following through to the bite-kill/dissect sequences with training. Once the dog is mature and knows the rules it doesn't matter as much if they follow through the complete wolf sequence when it isn't in it's working mode and not on the animals it retrieves during work. So if the retriever retrieves birds there is nothing wrong with them chasing and following through on a mouse or a squirrel.


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Which then falls to Goldens being correctly and carefully bred, with what they were designed to do being kept in mind, and not making excuses for behaviors and temperaments which oppose those ideals simply because they are "pets", as well as lack of respect for the standard as regards appearance.


Yes. 
But we are dealing with the human race as stewards for this and capitalism, ignorance, and the 'right' to have what we 'want' drives the majority. Honorable breeders like yourself are few and far between and can't supply enough for the demand.
Educate, educate, educate....peers, successors, co-workers, the public, 
and stand by your guns and breeding programs. We need you


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Moverking wrote:I think it falls mainly into the breed nature of Goldens to be 'biddable', plus the genetic pre-disposition to have a soft mouth and less predation instinct than other breeds.

I would say the above differently. Goldens do not have less predation/drive they just follow a different sequence in their predation.
A border collie has the predatory instinct (prey drive) ... the drive isn't less the sequence stops sooner than the wolf.
Same for the guardian breed and hunter/retrievers. They can have just as intense drive their sequence isn't as long as the wolf.
These domesticated dogs each have been bred for a different function.

Some of those breeding goldens in conformation don't seem to get it like PointGold does.

JoEllen wrote:If we are going to breed golden retrievers for what they are designed to do, then shouldn't we also be placing them into homes where they can do what they were bred to do?

That would be the ultimate. To have the goldens go to homes that will let them work and function in the capacity they were originally bred for... But the world has changed and those homes are much farther and fewer. For those that truly love the breed they want to have it continue and if they follwed through on the above most working dogs (breeds) would become extinct.


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

Sol, that's very interesting....do you think genetics or training alters the sequence....obviously 'it' being a shared instinct that allowed their survival in the wild. 
I think it's genetics....breeding for a trait that we desire for the purpose of the breed. Diluting any of the other undesireable traits by selection....


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

solinvictus said:


> Moverking wrote:I think it falls mainly into the breed nature of Goldens to be 'biddable', plus the genetic pre-disposition to have a soft mouth and less predation instinct than other breeds.
> 
> I would say the above differently. Goldens do not have less predation/drive they just follow a different sequence in their predation.
> A border collie has the predatory instinct (prey drive) ... the drive isn't less the sequence stops sooner than the wolf.
> ...


 
That would be the ultimate, but there will always be those that are committed to maintaining the integrity of the breed and will follow through, breeding dogs with the CORRECT temperament and the "proper" amount of prey drive, which would mean dogs that are also able to be excellent companions. And that as companions, their owners are engaging them in activities that allow their inherent qualities to be utilized even if it be in a form of play - or giving them a "job" to do... They were designed to be hunting COMPANIONS, not hunter/killers.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

All of us who own dogs (goldens) are stewards to the breed. Even if we are not breeding it is up to each of us to when getting our pups to train them to be the best golden that they can be. This means even just pets should be nurtured and taught to use their natural abilities. I am of the mindset that many of those retrievers with hard mouths are because when the originally showed signs toward retrieving they were not given the correct training and reinforcement which made them follow a different sequence/pattern. I know there are hard mouth retrievers but again I think some become that way because many pet owners do not have enough knowledge to do the correct training.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

moverking said:


> Sol, that's very interesting....do you think genetics or training alters the sequence....obviously 'it' being a shared instinct that allowed their survival in the wild.
> I think it's genetics....breeding for a trait that we desire for the purpose of the breed. Diluting any of the other undesireable traits by selection....


Agreed. Retrievers do not need the entire sequence, and should not have the grab/bite, and kill/bite instinct. Which I have rarely if EVER seen in a well bred Golden.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm beginning to wonder if it might be training. If a golden retriever is not doing what it was bred to do, will the predatory sequence naturally escalate? Because the predatory instinct is already there ... if there's no training, where's the check?


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

LOL .... does ANY of this apply to fish ??? 

If so, I am going to commence a passionate argument on Daisy's behalf :


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if it might be training. If a golden retriever is not doing what it was bred to do, will the predatory sequence naturally escalate? Because the predatory instinct is already there ... if there's no training, where's the check?


:doh: If it were simply training, then we could be hunting fowl with Akitas.

In the retrieving breeds, "prey drive" is not a complete 5 part behavior. A properly bred retriever, with correct instincts, will not have the grab/bite, kill bite.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Moverking wrote:Sol, that's very interesting....do you think genetics or training alters the sequence....

Well, so far as I have read by behavior scientists it starts with genetics. Training/enviroment does have a big part in it after the fact but the dog has to have it inside it first. I believe that is what Coppinger stated on page 118 of his book. I also read Patricia B. McConnell, PH.D. "For the Love Of A Dog" and she makes statements that seem to follow my thinking. She purchased a dog for her working farm, it was disabled but should have been able to do it's job once it had the surgeries. Because it didn't learn to walk until after it's surgeries it couldn't function so it's enviroment played a big part after the fact. She states because the dog did not use that part of the brain on her back legs that the pathways closed off. So, again the dog really needs to start with the correct genetics, (predatory sequence) but enviroment will alter it if it isn't nurtured.


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

solinvictus said:


> All of us who own dogs (goldens) are stewards to the breed. Even if we are not breeding it is up to each of us to when getting our pups to train them to be the best golden that they can be. This means even just pets should be nurtured and taught to use their natural abilities. I am of the mindset that many of those retrievers with hard mouths are because when the originally showed signs toward retrieving they were not given the correct training and reinforcement which made them follow a different sequence/pattern. I know there are hard mouth retrievers but again I think some become that way because many pet owners do not have enough knowledge to do the correct training.


If only it could truly be this way......the right dog breed in the right setting, be it pet or hunting companion. Many do not consider what the dog was bred for and give them no outlet. Like taking our gifted math student, placing him/her in an art class major, and wondering why he/she doesn't excel and love it....




Pointgold said:


> Agreed. Retrievers do not need the entire sequence, and should not have the grab/bite, and kill/bite instinct. Which I have rarely if EVER seen in a well bred Golden.


And I have 2 with a grab & kill bite instinct that I didn't know how to correct as a 'newbie' without the skills or knowledge I should have had to begin with.
I've learned so much..._after_I got my girls....would NOT trade them for the world....but also hope I have the opportunity in my lifetime to have a 'do-over'...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

moverking said:


> If only it could truly be this way......the right dog breed in the right setting, be it pet or hunting companion. Many do not consider what the dog was bred for and give them no outlet. Like taking our gifted math student, placing him/her in an art class major, and wondering why he/she doesn't excel and love it....
> 
> And I have 2 with a grab & kill bite instinct that I didn't know how to correct as a 'newbie' without the skills or knowledge I should have had to begin with.
> I've learned so much..._after_I got my girls....would NOT trade them for the world....but also hope I have the opportunity in my lifetime to have a 'do-over'...


 
Or worse, there are "breeders" who make excuses for breeding dogs with incorrect (fill in the blank - temperaments/size/structure, etc etc etc) and people are not GETTING what they thought they were in a dog.


Show me someone - ANYone - who has not wanted a "do-over" for _something._


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

JoEllen wrote:I'm beginning to wonder if it might be training. If a golden retriever is not doing what it was bred to do, will the predatory sequence naturally escalate? Because the predatory instinct is already there ... if there's no training, where's the check?

There is a lot of dogs out there that are not bred completely to their standard. In other cases many of the goldens are not biting that hard on the object they have chased down. Many of those victims died of fear, once they were in the goldens mouth. Many goldens do bring back their victim and drop it near their owner alive. Since those owners do not kill it, the victim attempts to escape which then turns the sequence back on. (It becomes play) Since the owner didn't stop the sequence (didn't do their job) eventually over time the victim will be killed. 
A retriever's job is to retrieve the wild life either already dead or hurt and for the hunter to take it and/or finish the kill.

So in my opinion when Daisy gets her fish you need to accept the gift and either find a way to send it back to the river/creek etc if alive or disperse of it.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

MoverKing wrote:And I have 2 with a grab & kill bite instinct that I didn't know how to correct as a 'newbie' without the skills or knowledge I should have had to begin with.
I've learned so much..._after_I got my girls....would NOT trade them for the world....but also hope I have the opportunity in my lifetime to have a 'do-over'...

If you think it is worth it you could try... Older dogs can learn new tricks.... You would just have to be there consistently to stop the sequence at the correct timing. 

Some things with my dog when I learned new things I have done over.  Other things I didn't think it was worth doing so I just left it as is.... I have always owned dogs and I thought I had some knowledge. lol But in the last nine years I have learned so much and realized so many things I would have done differently. There have been great strides in information on training and caring for our dogs. And I want to learn and understand so much more.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

solinvictus said:


> So in my opinion when Daisy gets her fish you need to accept the gift and either find a way to send it back to the river/creek etc if alive or disperse of it.


Forgive me, I haven't the heart to throw her fish back


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

This is a very interesting thread! Lots of great info and discussion.

I think that being a good "retriever", ie going out to get a bird, returning it to hand undamaged is genetic. I think breeders who hunt/test/trial in the field select/breed dogs for these traits.

My puppy Mira comes from field lines, and from 7 weeks old she always had a strong desire to retrieve to hand. I simply encouraged this behavior, but I did not create it.

One of my older dogs Barley who did not come from titled field lines likes to tug like crazy and he loves to chase! But he will not "grab kill bite". He was introduced to retrieving birds at 4 years old, and the first time he had a live shot bird he brought it back still alive. My thought is it must be somehow inherent in the breed.

If someone was to say high prey drive in a field golden, to me I would think of a dog with a lot of go-go to run out and retrieve an item with gusto. But then to bring it back undamaged. To go out and hunt for a fallen bird can sometimes take time and the dogs that look good doing it, I would say have high prey drive. But genetics/breeding with training allow them to bring it back undamaged. Although I think I would just call it drive and drop the prey.

As far as the topic on dual purpose dogs, there was a really interesting statement I read in one of my old Goldens books. It talked about the cost and time of pursuing top titles in the different venues and that may explain the disappearance of the dual champion Golden and "the missing link today may be the dual-purpose Golden Retriever owner." I think that could be true.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

We have hunted with our goldens but never done field trials. Now that neither of us can hunt anymore, we do retrieve work alot but it is because the dogs want to. Gunner would want to retrieve whether I ever threw anything for him or not. He LOVES to retrieve. and so have all my goldens. and they have all had soft mouths. Maybe we have just been lucky in the dogs we chose. I have never had a golden with the kill instinct. They have chased the squirrels in our yard but never killed any. Gunner actually caught one once and dropped it. I think it freaked him out that he caught it!

We have not had to TRAIN them to retrieve, they did it naturally. But we have definitely encouraged it by repeating it over and over and cheering them on when they bring it back. Whether it's a training dummy or a real bird.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

sammydog said:


> This is a very interesting thread! Lots of great info and discussion.
> 
> I think that being a good "retriever", ie going out to get a bird, returning it to hand undamaged is genetic. I think breeders who hunt/test/trial in the field select/breed dogs for these traits.
> 
> ...


I care about this topic so deeply, and try to choose pups who may embody the lovely form and pure function of a gentleman's hunter. We chose Stoney, ,HR, U-CD, AM CH Springcreek Everlore All Time Hi RN SH WCX VC BOSS CGC(working MH now) because he is only 4 and already demonstrating that a show dog can set the performance world on fire.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> I care about this topic so deeply, and try to choose pups who may embody the lovely form and pure function of a gentleman's hunter. We chose Stoney, ,HR, U-CD, AM CH Springcreek Everlore All Time Hi RN SH WCX VC BOSS CGC(working MH now) because he is only 4 and already demonstrating that a show dog can set the performance world on fire.


I have SOOO much respect for this! I love to see the Goldens that can do it all!!!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

sammydog said:


> (trimmed)
> If someone was to say high prey drive in a field golden, to me I would think of a dog with a lot of go-go to run out and retrieve an item with gusto. But then to bring it back undamaged. To go out and hunt for a fallen bird can sometimes take time and the dogs that look good doing it, I would say have high prey drive. But genetics/breeding with training allow them to bring it back undamaged. Although I think I would just call it drive and drop the prey.


What you are describing is a dog that has enhanced search, sight-stalk, and chase pieces of the sequence without grab-bite/kill bite. 

And the term "drive" is used most frequently with people who do preformance work with their dogs as opposed to "prey drive" - which is apparently much misunderstood and misused by the general pet owning population.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

solinvictus said:


> In other cases many of the goldens are not biting that hard on the object they have chased down. Many of those victims died of fear, once they were in the goldens mouth.


Actually...I think that is what happens when Lucky kills something. I think it...crushes itself. I say that because I saw him get a bird and it was alive and flapping for the longest time as I tried to get Lucky to drop it. And all his "prey" has not a mark on them.....


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## DUSTYRD2 (Feb 28, 2007)

In our neck of the woods, (British Columbia), we use the term "drive". There is no "prey" in it. Goldens were breed to retrieve, not to kill. In fact in a test situation, if a dog, any breed of dog, brings a mangled and chewed bird back to his handler it is failed. They are not even allowed one puncture. Goldens must have soft mouths to accomplish this and a well bred golden will have this trait. IMO ALL well bred goldens have drive, it's part of their genetic makeup. The degree or level of drive does vary however, the rest is just training. Now, does a golden from a puppy mill have drive? Of course. It may be low but it's there and can be brought out and trained. Could it become a FTCH? Probably not but maybe it will (putting aside the obvious registration issue of such a dog), under the guidance of an experienced trainer. Can a dog from so called "conformation lines" have drive? Absolutely! As someone said earlier in the thread, most owners involved in conformation have no interest in field work so how is anyone to know what the dog is capable of in the field drive wise. I do know that here in BC, conformation people are slowly realizing there should be more to their show champion dogs and are coming out to the field. PJ, one of the top show goldens , never been in the field in his life, came out to training for the first time and blew everyone, including his owner, away with how much "drive" he had. He did a beautiful job, spot on the first time with his retrieves on land and water.
Our own boy Dusty, came from big conformation dogs. His sire, Suntory Loveit was a Multi Best in Show, outstanding sire etc but he also had performance titles including a Junior Hunter. His dam was a show champion as was his grand dam. No field titles whatsoever, but I later learned they were both hunting dogs and could hold their own in the field with any field titled dog. Their owners just never bothered to formally pursue those particular field titles.
I guess the point I'm trying make is that ALL goldens have that drive instinct in them. Just because they don't have the field title after their name or do have a CH before their name doesn't mean they don't have drive. Our dogs are living proof of that, all three of them have well know show champions in their pedigree. Do they have drive? You betcha especially that little Hugo man. LOL


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

DUSTYRD2 said:


> In our neck of the woods, (British Columbia), we use the term "drive". There is no "prey" in it. Goldens were breed to retrieve, not to kill. In fact in a test situation, if a dog, any breed of dog, brings a mangled and chewed bird back to his handler it is failed. They are not even allowed one puncture. Goldens must have soft mouths to accomplish this and a well bred golden will have this trait. IMO ALL well bred goldens have drive, it's part of their genetic makeup. The degree or level of drive does vary however, the rest is just training. Now, does a golden from a puppy mill have drive? Of course. It may be low but it's there and can be brought out and trained. Could it become a FTCH? Probably not but maybe it will (putting aside the obvious registration issue of such a dog), under the guidance of an experienced trainer. Can a dog from so called "conformation lines" have drive? Absolutely! As someone said earlier in the thread, most owners involved in conformation have no interest in field work so how is anyone to know what the dog is capable of in the field drive wise. I do know that here in BC, conformation people are slowly realizing there should be more to their show champion dogs and are coming out to the field. PJ, one of the top show goldens , never been in the field in his life, came out to training for the first time and blew everyone, including his owner, away with how much "drive" he had. He did a beautiful job, spot on the first time with his retrieves on land and water.
> Our own boy Dusty, came from big conformation dogs. His sire, Suntory Loveit was a Multi Best in Show, outstanding sire etc but he also had performance titles including a Junior Hunter. His dam was a show champion as was his grand dam. No field titles whatsoever, but I later learned they were both hunting dogs and could hold their own in the field with any field titled dog. Their owners just never bothered to formally pursue those particular field titles.
> I guess the point I'm trying make is that ALL goldens have that drive instinct in them. Just because they don't have the field title after their name or do have a CH before their name doesn't mean they don't have drive. Our dogs are living proof of that, all three of them have well know show champions in their pedigree. Do they have drive? You betcha especially that little Hugo man. LOL


 
When I temperament/aptitude test a litter, drive as well as retrieving instinct are assessed. I am breeding dogs mainly for show and companions, but it is important to me that as Goldens they possess those instincts, as many of our dogs are used as hunting companions. 
Many "show" dogs are said to have lost the ability to do what the breed was originally designed to do. I do not believe this to be true, but believe that because of the expense involved in competing, it is often difficult to be able to participate in more than one venue. I believe that if given the chance, most of these dogs would prove the theory wrong. (I've said before that there are more show champions with titles at the end of their name than there are field champions with CH's at the beginning.) 
Knowing what to look for in a puppy is also important. I held back a puppy from one of my litters because I felt that she would do very well in a "performance" home even though from a completely "show bred" pedigree. As chance would have it, a wonderful couple was referred to me and jumped at her. 
She became http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=5328 and herself became the foundation of a wonderful line of perfomance dogs. 
And it's not just Goldens. My Pointer bitch, Ch Stillwithem Adorah Izod, JH ** was from an entirely "show bred" pedigree, but when I finished her championship at 7 months of age, in 3 straight shows, I decided to "do field" with her while she grew up before specialing her. Everyone, including her breeder, thought I was nuts. Alice was an incredible hunting dog and after the NAVHDA guys made plenty of fun of us, being "fancy schmancy AKC show dawgs" and 3 times as big as their wired for sound "huntin' Pointers", it was my Alice that they wanted to take to Iowa for pheasant hunting. 
As Judie said, well bred dogs will possess the necessary traits to do the job, and given the chance, with proper handling and training, they _will _perform.


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

Maybe Wiggs is getting his drive from PJ then....he unfortunately got his dam's temperament...:doh:



DUSTYRD2 said:


> In our neck of the woods, (British Columbia), we use the term "drive". There is no "prey" in it.  Goldens were breed to retrieve, not to kill. In fact in a test situation, if a dog, any breed of dog, brings a mangled and chewed bird back to his handler it is failed. They are not even allowed one puncture. Goldens must have soft mouths to accomplish this and a well bred golden will have this trait. IMO ALL well bred goldens have drive, it's part of their genetic makeup. The degree or level of drive does vary however, the rest is just training. Now, does a golden from a puppy mill have drive? Of course. It may be low but it's there and can be brought out and trained. Could it become a FTCH? Probably not but maybe it will (putting aside the obvious registration issue of such a dog), under the guidance of an experienced trainer. Can a dog from so called "conformation lines" have drive? Absolutely! As someone said earlier in the thread, most owners involved in conformation have no interest in field work so how is anyone to know what the dog is capable of in the field drive wise. I do know that here in BC, conformation people are slowly realizing there should be more to their show champion dogs and are coming out to the field. PJ, one of the top show goldens , never been in the field in his life, came out to training for the first time and blew everyone, including his owner, away with how much "drive" he had. He did a beautiful job, spot on the first time with his retrieves on land and water.
> Our own boy Dusty, came from big conformation dogs. His sire, Suntory Loveit was a Multi Best in Show, outstanding sire etc but he also had performance titles including a Junior Hunter. His dam was a show champion as was his grand dam. No field titles whatsoever, but I later learned they were both hunting dogs and could hold their own in the field with any field titled dog. Their owners just never bothered to formally pursue those particular field titles.
> I guess the point I'm trying make is that ALL goldens have that drive instinct in them. Just because they don't have the field title after their name or do have a CH before their name doesn't mean they don't have drive. Our dogs are living proof of that, all three of them have well know show champions in their pedigree. Do they have drive? You betcha especially that little Hugo man. LOL


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> What you are describing is a dog that has enhanced search, sight-stalk, and chase pieces of the sequence without grab-bite/kill bite.


No, I don't think so. 

She is describing a dog that has sufficient amounts of Search, Sight-Stalk, Chase and Grab-Bite pieces of the sequence without the dreaded Kill-Bite (Hard Mouth). (You need to have grab-bite or you won't have a retriever.) Those are not enhancements, they are necessary elements and are required for a good "hunting dog". All hunting dogs, be they retriever, spaniel, pointer or hound, must possess ample amounts of Search, Sight-Stalk, and Chase. 

When viewing the breed standard, the Golden Retriever is described as a "hunting dog", not just a "retrieving dog". (BIG difference between the two) Any dog can be taught to fetch a tennis ball, retrieve a stick or even birds, bunnies and squirrels, but that does not make them a "hunting dog" as the Golden Retriever is supposed to be. 

The Search, Sight-Stalk and Chase components are critical elements for hunting dogs. Without them the hunter is more than likely going to go home empty handed. (Or as the old saying goes "That Dog Won't Hunt".)







Pointgold said:


> And the term "drive" is used most frequently with people who do preformance work with their dogs as opposed to "prey drive" - which is apparently much misunderstood and misused by the general pet owning population.


I agree, "Drive" and "Prey Drive" are two very different things. 

"Drive" is perhaps sometimes better decribed or measured in "Desire" to attack/stick to/and accomplish ones tasks or goals. That goal may be going after a bird, getting a tennis ball, or taking over the couch.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

So Swampcollie, since I'm not an expert, are you saying just because a dog loves to retrieve frisbees, balls, etc doesn't mean they would retrieve a bird correctly? Selka did have to be encouraged to retrieve a bird at first. Gunner and Max both did it instinctivally.

Our hunter Max also flushed birds and our first golden also pointed (but was gunshy) both were excellent at retrieveing birds.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> No, I don't think so.
> 
> She is describing a dog that has sufficient amounts of Search, Sight-Stalk, Chase and Grab-Bite pieces of the sequence without the dreaded Kill-Bite (Hard Mouth). (You need to have grab-bite or you won't have a retriever.) Those are not enhancements, they are necessary elements and are required for a good "hunting dog". All hunting dogs, be they retriever, spaniel, pointer or hound, must possess ample amounts of Search, Sight-Stalk, and Chase.
> 
> ...


 
You are of course correct - I was purposely leaving out "grab/bite" so as not to completely confuse people who associate that only with "hard mouth", and was perhaps oversimplifying it. I also do not consider search/stalk/chase as enhancements but as _enhanced components _of the sequence as relates to Goldens.


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## FranH (May 8, 2005)

After taking the girls to the dog park last week, we drove to the end of our street to see what was left of a house that was leveled(larger home). We were sitting there in our car and talking with two neighbors when Rosie leaped out of the car window and chased a squirrel for about 4 houses.....totally ignoring our calls to come. Would that be considered "high prey drive"? (and she's the obedient one of my two!!)

No more rolled down windows for the girls. We were really lucky we weren't somewhere in traffic.


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