# Training Break Through!!!!



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Wow - sounds like you had an awesome session


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Very cool! I may be coming to you when I get to that point to find out what you learned that you feel worked for Scout.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

yay Scout!! What a great feeling when something "clicks" !


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Hooray Scout!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

DNL2448 said:


> Very cool! I may be coming to you when I get to that point to find out what you learned that you feel worked for Scout.


Alright, I'll help if I can but remember I am very novice here  Plus, what I did was based upon what I felt my dog needed given her personality. If given another dog with the same problem, I might not do the same thing...


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Wonderful news!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Good Girl Scout.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Just got back from another good training session. I am hopeful that in a few weeks we might be running double tt! I sent her twice to the back pile and she did great. She's gotten this in her mind so well that she wants to take off now when I say 'dead bird' instead of 'back' because she knows what is coming. Third time I sat her and sent her to the left over pile (same as before). She sat cleanly, then cast over for me. I sent her back and she popped this time. So, after that I sent her again but she got distracted by a lab at the far end of the field. I waited for him to pass, and sent her again. This time she went quickly without popping so I ended it there.

Overall, good work I think! My plan is to spend the next couple of sessions doing the same rough pattern--2-3 back, one left over, then at least 2 back or however many it takes to stop popping. Then, I'll do the same pattern only do the right over pile instead. When that is good, I plan on mixing it up. Of course, not sure how well I'll be able to mix it up since I do not want to send her too many times, and I know you need to send to the back pile twice as often if not more than the over piles. Plus, I am thinking I probably need to do a few back casts at the apex as well. Any ideas on how to mix these up in a session without doing too many retrievers is appreciated!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hi -- I know what you mean as far as not getting "every" cast in in one session. This becomes even more difficult with double T. That is 8 separate casts, really difficult to have enough dog to do all in one sitting plus at least twice as many straight sends. I will usually pick two casts to do in one sitting that correlate to each other. I.e. first stop and cast is the right over, then next one is the right back, or vise versa. The previous cast will influence the next one and the dog has to really follow directions. This is opposed to say, a left over then a RIGHT back -- you are sending the dog in opposite directions so not as much pull to do the wrong thing. 
Now -- you are using a collar, yes? You need to be using the collar and forcing on the line to the back pile. If she is popping and getting distracted by outside visual things going on -- she needs to be forced. She thinks she has an option and isn't taking it very seriously. At this point -- when she pops -- what are you doing to get her going again? It is absolutely natural for the dog to pop exactly as you are describing at this stage of the game, and now is when you need to tackle it.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Yes, I am using the collar when she pops. That's what fixed this thing actually--I mean, it created a problem temporarily with her wanting to look out but that got fixed. I had to stop messing with her as the hoo-rahs and petting was more than she needed.

My training group told me I should not use the collar, and they felt that using the collar during t-work is falling out of favor (not what I got from reading RTF). While I saw the wisdom in what they were saying because you don't want to rush training, I really felt like for my dog this was not the best choice. I already saw attitude and speed improvement when I used the collar effectively (just had the looking problem). Plus, I had spent lots of time and even backed up with her running to the back pile which has been in the same spot for weeks. Now if I did not have a confident dog I can see not using the collar. My buddies are afraid of having a dog crawl out unhappily to the blind because of using the collar. Honestly, if I saw my dog doing that I'd quit!

The other thing I changed which helped with looking out was my handling. I saved the fun bumpers until the end of the exercise (or after an over pile--trying to save for the end but hard for me to break the habit). I do not enthusiastically praise anymore either, I take the bumper then reach down and calmly pet with long strokes. As I've been told--she doesn't need more up at this point. This has helped settle her down. Before I was also getting this annoying behavior of her jumping up and around after I took the bumper because she always wanted a fun bumper and seemed to feel entitled to one. The last thing I changed was the number of sends. The first time she ran straight to the pile after a back-nick-back and a pop I ended the session with fun bumpers and praise. She only retrieved four times. But as with obedience training less can be more I think, and I always try to end with her being successful once instead of drilling and trying to get more than one successful. If she gets it right the first time--we're done.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Wow -- sounds like you are doing GREAT! Of course you use the collar during T work. It's where the dog learns WHAT the corrections are for!!!!!
It is common for dogs to get down during T work but once you start on real blinds their attitude comes back. Not to say you should strive for this but don't think that a little correction and deflating during T work is going to be the end-all. 
You are really smart to be discriminating with your fun bumpers. And you're right, that jumping up to grab the bumper or even just jumping around anticipating a fun bumper is not only a REALLY bad habit but takes their mind off of work.
Also -- this is something my mentor told me early on -- quit it with the petting to praise the dog. Especially stroking -- again it takes the dog's mind off the work and gets them to rely on a physical praise from you. Like in obedience heeling, use your strong confidant praising voice and TELL the dog how well it did, quit with the petting.
So by the looking out problem you mean after she would get forced to the pile she would look at you when you were trying to send her? That is also REALLY common in fact something you should expect. I use a low level continuous and heel forward a step, then send again. 
For popping at this point I would use a strong BACK-NICK-BACK and no hands on your back. In other words do not give her a back cast when she pops, just B-N-B. Also while you are going through this -- when you DO stop her with the whistle -- instead of sending to an over pile, cast to the back pile. That will help with momentum.
And after you convince the dog to not pop you'll need to again convince them to stop on the whistle instead of running through it! Ask me about that one! HAHA (Slater)


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks! I am trying to get a feel for this thing and do right by my dog. My next one will be easier :~)

Yes, the looking out problem happened when I started the force on the back pile. I am sure it was because I forced the back and she was trying to avoid being sent. I have had to deal with some avoidance issues--and it's not from being hard on her it's just her not wanting to do it. Booger  I have been reluctant to nick her for that because I do not want her to stress, but she has not been stressing lately.

I am glad you said that about the collar. That was my perception--that the collar is mostly used to get through drill work but once you make it through the basics you will rarely need it since most training problems will be addressed then...? And I get that you need to teach first before you reinforce, but I know at this point she knows what she's supposed to do she's just very good at avoidance--being silly/cute, feigning confusion. The other day she reached the pile and instead of picking a bumper up decided she was going to roll in the pile.  And it's not like she hasn't been sent to a pile for eons now...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Yes, the looking out problem happened when I started the force on the back pile. I am sure it was because I forced the back and she was trying to avoid being sent. I have had to deal with some avoidance issues--and it's not from being hard on her it's just her not wanting to do it. Booger  I have been reluctant to nick her for that because I do not want her to stress, but she has not been stressing lately.


Well if you can get her to stop the looking up by being nice, then great  At some point in her training career you will probably need to rely on HEEL-nick-HEEL to cure something so might as well teach it now. 



> I am glad you said that about the collar. That was my perception--that the collar is mostly used to get through drill work but once you make it through the basics you will rarely need it since most training problems will be addressed then...?


Well something like that. I would not say that the collar is "rarely" needed. But you hopefully will not continue to rely on it to relay information to the dog. As the dog progresses, suction, stress and accountability for the dog become exponentially harder, that means the dog will fail and will need to be corrected from time to time. Without this cycle the dog will never progress. They learn what the corrections mean and not to freak out over them during basics/transition.



> And I get that you need to teach first before you reinforce, but I know at this point she knows what she's supposed to do she's just very good at avoidance--being silly/cute, feigning confusion. The other day she reached the pile and instead of picking a bumper up decided she was going to roll in the pile.  And it's not like she hasn't been sent to a pile for eons now...


Yeah -- keep on top of that. Really I would not let her get away with any of it. It is R-E-S-P-E-C-T. I don't know if it's a dog vs. bitch thing or field bred vs. show bred -- but man -- how you're describing your girl sounds like what I've seen a lot of with show bred bitches! HAHA Keep high standards.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> I don't know if it's a dog vs. bitch thing or field bred vs. show bred -- but man -- how you're describing your girl sounds like what I've seen a lot of with show bred bitches! HAHA Keep high standards.


So she's typical then? Fisher and Blade are show they aren't like this, are they? I think it's a pushy dominant bitch thing : But maybe show has something to do with it too.

I guess that is my biggest fault and I am getting better. I am too easy on her at times. So used to the other dogs I have worked with which needed the added encouragement and me trying to bring them up and get excited. Scout doesn't need that, she's pretty motivated. And she does need boundaries.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> So she's typical then? Fisher and Blade are show they aren't like this, are they? I think it's a pushy dominant bitch thing : But maybe show has something to do with it too.


Have you trained boys? Holy cow I think there is a world of difference between the sexes  Girls have a tendency to want to play by their rules and on their agenda until convinced otherwise...boys can be bigger babies but will turn themselves inside out to try to do what you want. They are equally talented and intelligent, it's who's driving the bus  
Blade I have not even begun to put through transition and he will probably go home before then. Fisher is very biddable and compliant, so I don't run into issues of me vs. him -- he isn't pushy, dominant, manipulative, and all those bitch things  However he does need a kick in the pants every once in a while to say you CAN and WILL do something really difficult, you will not wimp out of it!!! You learn SOOOO much about a dog when you do advanced field training. 
However my training partner's bitch sounds JUST LIKE SCOUT!!!!



> I guess that is my biggest fault and I am getting better. I am too easy on her at times. So used to the other dogs I have worked with which needed the added encouragement and me trying to bring them up and get excited. Scout doesn't need that, she's pretty motivated. And she does need boundaries.


There ya go -- that's the right mind set. Sounds like you are really getting it -- go you!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Haha no I have not worked with many boys, and this is my first time doing field stuff. My next one may be a boy--I am tempted. I do have a lot of issues with Scout and dominance. I would love to meet your friend's bitch. Would be nice to compare notes!

We just got back from training this morning and it went well. No popping!! She's still a little wild on the line but I am buckling up and being harder on her. She does know better. I did a dead bird-nick-dead bird and she instantly looked back out after looking up at me. So, it's progress. I also did a few more retrieves this time. I practiced the back cast twice and did an over mixed in with regular backs and ending on a straight back. Her sit when I cast her back was very loopy. I waited until after the apex to sit her, but I also think I might have sat on the whistle longer. Either way, she did find when I sat and cast to the left pile. So, I may need to address some of my handling (shorter whistles probably help with fast tighter sits--I guess sometimes I'm afraid she'll roll past 'em).

In other news I am very sad to say that my antenna screwed off and I could not find it in the field  I have an older antenna that I think will work but I am still so very sad.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Oh no! Well my antenna crapped out too a few months ago, I ordered a new one and it was like $20 with shipping.
Good job on the nick at your side. Do you use "SIT" to mean look straight ahead or "Dead bird?" (I think I know the answer = dead bird) I use the word SIT to mean look straight ahead for both marks and blinds. I use the phrase "Dead bird" right before we set up to run a blind, just to cue the dog in that it's a blind not a mark. And I use the word "MARK" after the dog is seating and looking where I want him to for the mark. As in, me saying "MARK" is telling the dog YES that is where it's coming from. My point in saying this is that be careful on drilling the phrase "dead bird" into the dog at this stage of the game especially since you are doing some correcting on it. Don't fall into the trap of using the phrase to get them to look forward -- that is what SIT is for. You correct or correlate "dead bird" with corrections so much, you get a dog with ants in his pants when he hears the term! Ask Fisher about that!! (First dog mistakes on my part) I have not even introduced the term dead bird to Slater yet, I will do so when we start running pattern blinds.
I did a good amount of forcing with Slater on TT so now he looks out to the pile and runs a beautiful line and fast as hell, but I'm having to go back and re-teach sit on the whistle. He took forcing so to heart he is not stopping for anything. Sigh. Two steps forward, one step back. 
If you want to talk with my friend I can give you her email. Her bitch is a very talented dog but -- a BITCH through and through!  We have to approach training differently than with my boys, but yet left to her own devices (i.e. hunting marks) she is much more reliable, she is honest and fearless in the water, etc.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Yeah I may be interested in chatting with her. Do you mind sending the pedigree of the bitch too?

Yes, I am using dead bird=look out. I thought that was the point *ahem* And that you use it a lot to get them understanding that something is out there so by the time you get to transition and cold blinds you just use the word and they know something is out there for them. Hmmm...not I have to rethink that one too! When she is looking in the right direction I just say 'good' or 'that's it'


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> I don't know what the next few training sessions will bring, but I am unbelievably thrilled about this one. I have to admit to, while it is hard I would much rather issues pop up now on drill work so I can fix them here before I ever run her for real.


Way to hang in there! A thorough job on Single T will really help you get a solid job done on Double T.

Many trainers do only a superficial job on T work because they think of it as mundane. But it's some of the more important training we give our dogs. Stick with it!

EvanG


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well I have some good news. I did eventually find my antenna the next time I went out. I have also introduced the right over cast. She's running to the back pile smoothly in between. Very good!

The problems I am working through--looking ahead is still not where I want it. She's showing improvement if I say 'good' several times when she is looking in the right direction. Still, it's not that steady gaze out that I desire and feel like I once had prior to forcing en route. Her whistle sits are a little loopy. Not terrible, but not real tight. I have not forced them at this point because I have been focusing on other aspects and don't want to over do it. As she no longer needs force en route, I will probably work on cleaning those up prior to moving on to double tt. 

One more minor problem which I believe is related to the first--toward the end of the session if I send her she always goes but sometimes she goes but has her head turned looking at me as she is running for the first couple yards. She doesn't stop, so I have not forced it. I think this is related to the fact that she is not looking out as steadily as desired and that she already knows where she is going. Should I be concerned? I've also been holding on her collar to get her to settle and look out. I figure as she improves I won't need to do that.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> Well I have some good news. I did eventually find my antenna the next time I went out. I have also introduced the right over cast. She's running to the back pile smoothly in between. Very good!
> 
> The problems I am working through--looking ahead is still not where I want it. She's showing improvement if I say 'good' several times when she is looking in the right direction.


Actually, that treatment may bog down what you're trying to enhance. When you see a dog look out with expectancy it's because that is exactly their attitude. They expect to go at any second, and they look forward to it. Often, we try to use cues to provide that expectation, when cuing acutally takes more time and can dim the expectation of going. Instead, they come to expect to arrive at the line and wait while you go through all your positioning and cuing up routine, rather than arriving expecting to go.

It's often helpful to alternate your timing - sometimes sending them the very instant they sit. It isn't as if they don't know where they're going today. They know where the Back pile is, and if there is any confusion, toss bumper out ahead of them toward the Back pile. Give them reason to expect action, and reward.

EvanG


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

EvanG said:


> Actually, that treatment may bog down what you're trying to enhance. When you see a dog look out with expectancy it's because that is exactly their attitude. They expect to go at any second, and they look forward to it. Often, we try to use cues to provide that expectation, when cuing acutally takes more time and can dim the expectation of going. Instead, they come to expect to arrive at the line and wait while you go through all your positioning and cuing up routine, rather than arriving expecting to go.
> 
> It's often helpful to alternate your timing - sometimes sending them the very instant they sit. It isn't as if they don't know where they're going today. They know where the Back pile is, and if there is any confusion, toss bumper out ahead of them toward the Back pile. Give them reason to expect action, and reward.
> 
> EvanG


Thanks Evan I will try that. I also think now may be a good time to go back and do some three legged pattern blinds as before. Use them to work on the looking out aspect and to mix it up. Then go back to t-work. I also need to introduce the here cast at some point, then I think I will be ready for double t.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> Thanks Evan I will try that. *I also think now may be a good time to go back and do some three legged pattern blinds as before. Use them to work on the looking out aspect and to mix it up.* Then go back to t-work. I also need to introduce the here cast at some point, then I think I will be ready for double t.


That's what I do with all of mine. Good luck!

EvanG


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well the three-legged pattern seems to have been a good choice. I thought it was an easy and simple exercise when we did it before single t. I mean, turn, send, repeat. Easy! Now that she's so used to running hard to that back pile though I am struggling with her wanting to look at the middle pile even when we are facing a side pile. Something to work on.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> Well the three-legged pattern seems to have been a good choice. I thought it was an easy and simple exercise when we did it before single t. I mean, turn, send, repeat. Easy! Now that she's so used to running hard to that back pile though I am struggling with her wanting to look at the middle pile even when we are facing a side pile. Something to work on.


One thing that will help with that is Wagon Wheel Lining drill. They really aren't about lining in the beginning. They're more about moving with the handler; right or left as directed, and that's what you're dealing with right now.

EvanG


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Evan do you think I should do that for a few days? I know I am not ready to move on from single t yet, I'm just taking a break. Although the biggest thing that needs to be smoothed out with that is the looking out steadily. If we can get that down, she knows the casts, except here which hopefully won't be too difficult to teach. She just wants to go--whether she's looking or not. The other minor problem is the whistle sit is not quick and tight yet...


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Yes, in addition to your T work and a good balance of marks. That would be a nice training day.

EvanG


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Evan do you think I should do that for a few days? I know I am not ready to move on from single t yet, I'm just taking a break. Although the biggest thing that needs to be smoothed out with that is the looking out steadily. If we can get that down, she knows the casts, except here which hopefully won't be too difficult to teach. She just wants to go--whether she's looking or not. The other minor problem is the whistle sit is not quick and tight yet...


So is the issue her bugging (looking all over everywhere BUT at the back pile you are lining her to? or looking up at you?) or is she breaking to the pile before you can get her lined up?
Trust me I have dealt with all of these things! LOL


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> So is the issue her bugging (looking all over everywhere BUT at the back pile you are lining her to? or looking up at you?) or is she breaking to the pile before you can get her lined up?
> Trust me I have dealt with all of these things! LOL


Not quite bugging...she will look at the back pile but not steadily or for a long time anymore. She also has a tendency to want to focus on a side pile. At this point though she is so conditioned to run to the back pile that she doesn't have to be looking and would run to the pile on just about any word. So I've been holding her collar before sending to steady her.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok Wagon wheel seems to be helping. I did it again today and she's very good at looking and waiting. In fact, it was so cute because she wanted to go so badly she sat there wiggling her whole butt and tail waiting for me to send her


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