# Shock collar for counter surfing?



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Big question is why not a common sense approach first before you start "shocking" your dog? (which I don't have a problem with when it comes to animals who are untrainable jerks - like my cat jumping on my dresser and knocking my earrings and other stuff on the floor every single chance he gets - if they make zap collars for cats, I'm on that - although, I do suspect that a collar that squirts water on my cat's head would work just as well  ).... 

Seriously though.

1. When you are not home - your dog does not get free reign of the house. 

2. Clean up the kitchen. Don't leave food items out in the dog's reach.

3. Your dog is not trained. Recognize that your "uh uh" means nothing to your dog, because odds are you have not loaded a correction behind those words. 

When doing "leave it" training - you want to have a correction behind the word "No" or "leave it". 

If you are a "positive-submissive" type of trainer, this usually means you going "uhuh" and pulling the dog away with you in a different direction. Being pulled away is a benign form of the leash correction.

If you are going for a more direct correction, I would simply do a pop correction with the leash any time your dog goes towards something that he should not have which is in his reach. This verbal "NO" + pop correction should be timed correctly so the dog connects the word "NO" with a correction. This is not a "punishment" - it is an interruption to whatever the dog doing. And might add, could save the dog's life or avoid disaster, depending on the situation.

I'll give you an example. 

I was at a dog show last weekend and after doing all the conformation stuff (my dog won, btw), I took him off leash to do some training to reinforce something I'm working through before showing him in obedience again. This is basically practicing "recalls" with my dog getting a verbal command or a signal to drop into a down about halfway to me.

I was mindless enough to set my dog up so that we were using a sidewalk outside an entrance into a grooming barn. 

This meant that at one point, I had told my dog to "come" and he was coming... and at that same moment, somebody came out with a pack of aussies.

My dog is trained so that "leave it" also includes other dogs. So I was quickly able to throw out a "STAY" command followed with a "LEAVE IT" while all these dogs passed. 

The handler did not see me immediately and actually turned and came towards my dog, with her dogs bounding around mine who was frozen in a stay with his eyes locked on me while I rushed in. 

All this took place in a very brief second or two and having a good "leave it" command was something that was a huge deal. Aussies aren't technically mean dogs, but there are some out there who can't handle a larger dog coming into their space. 

^^ That's a pretty drastic example.

More common examples would be the ability to leave a plate of food on a low cocktail table, with dogs underfoot and in the room while you dot back and forth between the living room and the kitchen. The dogs should be trained not to touch food if it's on a table. 

My guys learn that if they ignore the food while I'm eating or while it's still up on the table, I will put it down on the floor for them at a certain point and tell them "OK". 

Another common sense example, would be if you drop something like corn cob or a piece of meat with a bone on it or something that the dogs would normally wolf down and injure themselves.... the dogs should have a loaded "leave it" command that they respect. 

Bottom line, what I'm telling you is instead of training your dog to be afraid of your counter because it apparently hurts to jump on it....

You could be training a rock solid "leave it".

Some people do this with zap collars, but you don't need them to train your dog. 

You do need to have good timing and be on the ball as far as whatever you do... load a good verbal correction. 

You don't have to "hurt" your dog with corrections. They don't have to be really macho or mean. But you can't be waffly and wimpy with these dogs if you want a correction to mean anything. 

Also. If you tell your dog "NO" for any reason, you need to follow through and be consistent.

Most people out there go to classes, learn all the corrections and stuff... and use them 1/2 the time. But they are all over the place with corrections and rewards. Means they are actually mindlessly rewarding the dogs when they are wrong... and constantly correcting the dogs so the dogs are just blowing them off. 

Even pop corrections when the timing is off... become things the dogs blow off if the communication/timing isn't spot on.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

Megora said:


> Even pop corrections when the timing is off... become things the dogs blow off if the communication/timing isn't spot on.


This! One easy way to make sure your timing is right for the counter surfing is to put your dog on a leash and buckle collar. Step on the end of the leash so that it is short enough that she can stand and jump up a little, but not get high enough to reach the counter. You want her to be able to move enough to make the mistake, but not enough for her to score a reward if your timing is off. She'll self-correct, and all you have to do is issue the verbal correction as she moves upwards. Obviously, you can't move around easily while you are doing this, but set some things out for practice, or do it while you are standing in one spot making something. Don't forget to praise/reward her when she's being good. Specifically, when her body language changes so that she is relaxed and not thinking about getting whatever is on your counter.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

Removed - double post


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

Megora said:


> Most people out there go to classes, learn all the corrections and stuff... and use them 1/2 the time. But they are all over the place with corrections and rewards. Means they are actually mindlessly rewarding the dogs when they are wrong... and constantly correcting the dogs so the dogs are just blowing them off.


On that note, let me add that it does take practice to process and react to these things quickly and appropriately, and to know what your dog is going to do before he does it, especially if you don't have naturally good instincts. It's easier for some people more so than others. I only bring that up as it has been a painful experience watching my oldest learn timing with our current pup. However, the only way to learn is to keep doing. (Preferably with instruction, since continuing to do it wrong, and never changing or improving gets you nowhere fast.)


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

My god, no, don't use a shock collar for counter surfing. Don't let your dog in the kitchen when you are not home. Crate the dog or use a baby gate. When you are home, keep all food off the counter. If dog goes to get up on the counter, ask the dog to do something else, like sit, and reward him for that. Take the value off of the counter surfing.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I'm not sure why so many people think that using a shock collar is the answer to an unwanted behavior. Shocking the snot out of your dog is a desperate action because you don't want to put in the work. 

Clean your kitchen so there is no reason to get up there. Remove him from the kitchen when you aren't there. Pretty simple ideas and no one got zapped, those things hurt. You have to be there when you shock him.. and what's to prevent him from doing it when you aren't there?? Shock or not you still have to do the training.

See if this video helps 



 it's pretty simple but like most things you have to put in the effort to get good results.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

puddles everywhere said:


> I'm not sure why so many people think that using a shock collar is the answer to an unwanted behavior. Shocking the snot out of your dog is a desperate action because you don't want to put in the work.


I'll answer that, just for the benefit of people who have friends or trainers suggest them. The answer is simply that they are available, they get results, and some trainers use them and recommend them. Like any other training tool, they have their place in certain situations and/or with certain dogs. As an extreme example, if someone has a dog engaging in an unwanted behavior, and the owner has exhausted other tools and is left with the choice to use the e collar to attempt a behavior change or send the dog to shelter where he might be euthanized, the e collar is probably a better choice. Again, that's an extreme example. There are other situations in which it could be a training tool. Same goes for a prong collar. The purpose isn't to use it forever, but to get your dog to listen long enough for you to train it. It's hard for someone to teach a dog to heel if the dog is stronger than they are and dragging them down the road.

Having said that, is it appropriate for counter surfing? Probably not. Is it appropriate for your puppy who breaks his stays? Again, probably not. Let me offer another kind of extreme example, as to the difference in quick training versus using more traditional methods. There's a dog in my neighborhood who's about the same age as mine. He was recently sent to one of these "give us your dog for two weeks and he'll come back completely trained" places. He came back, and he's not the bouncing puppy he was before. He stays when he's told to stay, doesn't run off anymore, etc, even though you can see him twitching forward and thinking about it. He is always wearing an e collar. Now, my puppy is being trained using very traditional methods. He isn't going to be trained in two weeks or even two months. He's going to make mistakes, but he isn't going to get shocked or buzzed when he makes a mistake. If he breaks a stay, he's going to get put back where he was until he's released. What's the difference in these two puppies, other than the length of time it takes to train? Well, for one, my dog is alert and paying attention to me (or my son, whichever of us is handling). What is the other puppy doing? He's looking around at whatever he's interested in. He staying put because he *has* to. Not because he *wants* to. Now, maybe I'm old fashioned, but I see training as a journey. I want my dog to derive as much joy out of listening to me, as I do out of training him. I want him to *want* to do for me. I don't want a dog who behaves because something bad will happen if he doesn't. That can lead to fearful, anxiety ridden dogs. Their instincts are repressed, rather than molded into the behavior that you want. There's a difference in the overall demeanor of my dog versus the other, as well. Guess which one is relaxed and happy, and guess which one is tense? Your dog shouldn't be tense just because you asked him to stay. If your dog isn't getting exercise and mental stimulation, and he becomes a nuisance barker, an e collar isn't solving your problem. Your dog is only going to find another outlet for his pent up energy. If you don't provide an appropriate outlet, he's going to become anxious and, possibly, destructive. In the end, when both dogs are fully trained and and the e collar is taken off of the other dog, guess which dog my money is on for reliability. I'll take the dog that pays attention to his handler, not the one who was trained entirely with aversive techniques and knows that his ecollar has suddenly disappeared.

The other problem with relying on aversive training methods is that people forget to praise the good behavior. I have yet to hear the owners of the dog with the ecollar praise the dog for doing as he's told. I liken this to two different types of bosses. On the one hand, you have a boss who yells at you every time you screw up. If you do well, the reward is no yelling. On the other hand, you have a boss who acknowledges your mistakes, provides guidance for fixing them, and offers raises when you do well. I know which boss I would prefer and which one would make for a collaborative working environment.

Kudos to the OP for asking the question and trying to do research before making a decision. Obviously, the OP is only trying to correct one behavior, not train a dog completely with an e collar, but now, thanks to Megora's post, fostergolden's post and puddleseverywhere's video, the OP has other options. Better that than going in blind and not asking for help because, frankly, some people really don't know the pros and cons of every advertised training tool. Furthermore, with so much conflicting information on any given item, unless you've had experience, how could you possibly work through all the information effectively?

Anyway, that's my two cents, for what it's worth.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

usually lurking said:


> On that note, let me add that it does take practice to process and react to these things quickly and appropriately, and to know what your dog is going to do before he does it, especially if you don't have naturally good instincts. It's easier for some people more so than others. I only bring that up as it has been a painful experience watching my oldest learn timing with our current pup. However, the only way to learn is to keep doing. (Preferably with instruction, since continuing to do it wrong, and never changing or improving gets you nowhere fast.)


^^^ Thanks for making that point + the reminder about praise/reward when your dogs are "right". 

When I said the above, I meant to explain that some people give up on certain methods because "they don't work" and move to something "stronger".... and they don't adequately understand why the more common sense methods don't work. It's generally not the methods or the dogs, it's inconsistency or laziness on the part of the owners. 

Training does take effort. If you see your dog do something good - you need to "mark" it with praise. This reinforces just as much as physical corrections reinforce the verbal correction so you can quickly get to a point where a verbal correction is all you need to get a dog to stop and walk away from temptation. 

Zap collars, btw, have their place. I train with people who put them on their HIGH GEAR dogs when training a group class. Because otherwise they would not be able to take their dogs off leash. This includes dogs who are obsessed with retrieving everything thrown and chasing everything that moves very fast.... these dogs come to class wearing zap collars and usually get weaned off having to wear them over time. 

You could use them with "leave it" training, but go back to basics first and really be consistent and practical and see where that takes you.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

I believe that the Sit Means Sit folks (they have a few serious lawsuits pending, on in particular in Florida that is heinous) are at least one of the reasons why pet people think that a shock collar is a good substitution for training. They have good pet person marketing and if you watch their YouTube videos, to the untrained eye, they _are_ miracle workers. 

The last video I watched was someone walking their yellow Lab into a new building with new people and frankly, I have seen way worse as far as behavior in a new place goes. The dog was happy, friendly, not jumping, but certainly excited and unable to think straight. He was clearly not trained and was young, maybe two. The "after" video was a dog that was stressed, ears back, tail down, wanting to please and afraid and unsure. He did not want to get out of the sit position so he would walk slowly with his butt down, ready to hit the floor. Everyone in the video thought this was great because the dog was "minding". Too many people confuse intimidation and fear with obedience. 

Dogs are not robots, they are dogs. And training takes time, effort and consistency. Dogs are incredible and they are so forgiving and they try so hard to make us happy and live in our world. Humans take advantage of that and our expectations -- especially when they are puppies or young dogs or going through dog puberty/adolescence (remember how difficult that was???) -- of them are unfair. They are born dogs, not humans, and we expect them to live in our homes and follow our rules from day one. While they are evolved into biddable house pets and workers, they are still dogs and that is not going to change. It's easy to scare and intimidate a dog into minding, but at what price? 

Getting off my soapbox now...


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Obviously frustrations got the better of me. The OP was looking for answers not lectures, my bad. If it's any consolation I get frustrated at people using prong collars and still letting their dogs pull them down the block! It's a training tool, learn how to use it.

e-collars are a very effect tool, when used correctly. They require training on how to use them effectively, just zapping the dog without the proper timing & training can do more harm than good. 

Like prong collars, it's a tool it's not a magic bullet that will solve all problems and it makes me sad that people are so quick to want to use it without getting instructions first.

I had a client that thought it would be a good way to teach their dog not to bark in the crate. So they put the dog in the crate and every time he made a sound they zapped him. The dog freaked and of course made more noise so they cranked it up to the max and continued to zap the dog until it peed in the crate. It left burns on his neck and he ripped two toe nails out trying to escape, tore up his mouth (stitches needed) trying to bite his way out. Needless to say the dog would NEVER get back into a crate and the people just couldn't see why the dog thought the crate was bad.
I don't have a problem with the e-collar... it's the people that use them without learning first. Just because you can purchase it over the counter doesn't mean you should. There are no quick fixes.


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## smp (Apr 27, 2016)

Megora said:


> ....When doing "leave it" training - you want to have a correction behind the word "No" or "leave it".
> 
> ...


I'm struggling with counter surfing here too. Biggest problem is that I have kids who constantly leave food on the edge of the table, so she gets rewarded frequently for jumping up to see what's there. My question with training "leave it," is that so far it seems that our dog, Sadie, will only "leave it" if she's told the command. If I'm out of the room, or she's with the kids, she feels like she has free reign. Any ideas?


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

I have the exact same problem. This is as much a kid training issue as it is a dog training issue. Dogs are opportunists and kids are enablers. I will frequently tether my pup to me while my kids snack, or give him a frozen kong. I make sure it's all picked up before releasing him. I also remind the kids that some people foods can make dogs very sick, and that they have to do their part in caring for their puppy by not leaving food out. Basically, I never leave the dog alone with the kids when they have food.


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## Ivyacres (Jun 3, 2011)

We've read the surfing stories here and appreciate that Honey has never been a counter surfer. She will lock onto food items on the table and near the edge of the counter hoping to get some but doesn't help herself. A phrase we've used in the past that also works with her is.._.that's not yours_...spoken in a quiet firm voice. She'll sit and guard the item for us, waiting for a little treat. We practice/re-enforce this command about once a week.

She also has a great _leave it _that we've constantly make a game of. One day I dropped a potato as I was preparing dinner. Her mouth closed around it as I said 'leave it'. Much to my amazement, she spit it out!! She got lots of praise and a nice slice of potato.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

We need to keep this in mind. We can literally spend 'all day' saying 'No' to our dogs, and it is unlikely they will learn much of anything, or we can take the time to teach them what we want them 'TO DO' instead. If we are going to interrupt (punish/correct) our dog's misbehavior, we need to follow that interruption with guidance to a more appropriate behavior and reward them for doing it.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Put the shock collar on your arm and give yourself a good shot!!! They are cruel and painful. Keep the stuff out of reach while you train the dog to stay off.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

My sister used one with her lab. He is a horrible counter surfer. It did no good. Just a year ago he got up there and ate a craft project of a pipe cleaner and fruit loops the kids made. Had to have a scope to get it out.

Two things when your gone your dog should not have access to the counter and everything should be cleaned off. When your home it's reinforcing off. Chloe was bad. But we kept reinforcing it. She is not a counter surfer at all at two years old. That isn't to say if we put goodies up there and left she wouldn't get them but most dogs would. But we can leave stuff up there all the time and it doesn't get touched.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

My daughter's toy poodle is a thief. He gets into/onto everything if we let him. So we don't let him. In the house, he's either with a human or in his crate. We're also very careful not to leave edible or dangerous stuff on surfaces where he might be able to go: tables, desks, counters, etc., just in case. If nothing else, he's taught us to be tidy and organized!

I wouldn't dream of using a shock collar on him. For us, this is a management issue.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

When dogs are heavily reinforced for a behavior, they continue to do it. For example, my dog is heavily reinforced for the heel position so if I have food or if he wants attention, he sits in heel position with his head up. For some dogs, that might be sitting when you have food or a toy as if to say, "please, may I have that?". They learn quickly and easily that X=Y especially when it gets them what they want. So, when a dog is doing something that you want or DON'T want, consider, WHY? Whatever the outcome is, it is reinforcement to the dog. It doesn't have to be food, it can be a child running and screaming (yay! chasing a small screaming child is FUN!), it can be pushing the dog after he playfully bites you (retrievers often LOVE to be pushed), it can be leaving food on the counter and turning your back (so the dog is heavily reinforced by the food on the counter). 

I don't have kids, but I did have a puppy once and dated someone with kids. When they left things out and the dog got it, it was determined that the kids were not mature enough or responsible enough to make their own food so they had to go back to asking for everything and being monitored. It was not a punishment, per say, but the kids definitely missed being able to do their own thing and did not like waiting for one of us to be available before they could make food for themselves. The kids were old enough to understand this. Obviously, if they weren't, they wouldn't be given those privileges in the first place nor would they or their plates of food not be monitored if they were too young to get it. 

If you still cannot manage the children with their food, then manage the dog. Use a baby gate to keep the dog out of the kitchen or crate the dog when food is being made. Then, make sure that food is put away before the dog comes back out of the crate. Most importantly, dogs should not be left with young children unsupervised. Kids cannot train dogs and dogs know that kids are an easy target. It's all about smart management, which includes supervision. Those who don't manage and supervise really make dog training harder than it has to be. It's less difficult and less stressful to pop the dog in a crate with a Kong so you and your kids can enjoy your meal or snack. And what could be easier?


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

pt3407 said:


> Has anyone here in this forum had luck removing the issue of counter surfing by using a shock collar? My girl gets off the counters or kitchen table when we say "uh uh" but still does it anyways. We plan to place a mirror in the room so that even when we are "gone", she will get a shock when she jumps onto the counter or table.


While the E-collar can work in addressing that type of problem, it is a bit more complicated to put into action. You would first need to condition the dog to the E-collar for everything else that the dog has learned thus far (Here, heel, sit, etc.). once you have done that, you can begin to address the countersurfing issue with the E-collar.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

This is what we did. 

At a very young age, my puppy tried to counter surf over and over again by jumping up to see what was going on. 

1. Every time he did, I would calmly block his view with my arm by lying my arm across the counter. (Trainer told me to do this. It makes the counter seem boring.)
2. Designate a place in the kitchen where he could "beg." Meaning, he'd lie in a certain spot and I'd throw him treats. Very often when he was a puppy. Almost never now, but he is very calm in the kitchen and keeps his paws on the ground.
3. Keep the counters and table clear so that it was never self-reinforcing. But-- I have young kids. So he learned quickly which kid would be more likely to leave food on the table and walk away, allowing him easy access. It has been a matter of training my younger children and being vigilant, so that's improved a lot.

Now he rarely jumps up on the counter. And when he does, I pet him, because it annoys him and jumps down. (He wants food at that moment, not to be pet.) He leaves food still in grocery bags on the floor alone. 

Still need to work on it more if I wanted him to be close to perfect, but he's not a nuisance/overall good manners in this dept. Just make the counters really boring and your dog will give up without you even being there to monitor.


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## Audog (Mar 17, 2017)

Our house is open concept, it is not possible to have our boy kept out of the kitchen, if we want him near us at all, so to stop counter surfing we have used clicker training to have him sit or lay on his mat while we are cooking, and we make sure to not leave food on the counter. Now, that being said, the whole family was over today for a cookout, that meant food all over the counters, and sure enough, our 6 month old pup was giving surfing a try. I couldn't blame him, heck I was grazing as well. Personally, I like that he gave it a go, although was stopped, shows he has a brain and isn't a robot dog.


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## Grandma (Jun 13, 2019)

All these suggestions are great if you are the only person working with the dog and consistent. In our house 3 of the 4 people do attempt to maintain reasonable consistency. But the remaining person - the 'head' of the house - WILL NOT be told anything and is determined to make the dog 'his' even though it actually belongs to one of the other three. When he comes back after several months out of the country a well-behaved dog is a monster in a couple of weeks. 

Are there shock collars for people?


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## jeffscott947 (Jun 9, 2019)

We used to use a water pistil that actually worked on many dogs..My puppy is coming in a week and I don't think that will work on this one! LOL


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Swampcollie said:


> While the E-collar can work in addressing that type of problem, it is a bit more complicated to put into action. You would first need to condition the dog to the E-collar for everything else that the dog has learned thus far (Here, heel, sit, etc.). once you have done that, you can begin to address the countersurfing issue with the E-collar.


Yes. Must be conditioned first. One of mine has been through the training and the thought of giving her a little zap for counter surfing has crossed my mind. The problem is that you HAVE to catch them in the act for it to work. I don’t know about anyone else but mine would never do it in my presence. They do it when you are in another room. They also have to know the correct behavior. It’s like when I used one to fix a heeling problem. Winx knew what heel means and she was conditioned to the collar. So one time when we were doing field work, she decided to act like a fool. Went like this: heel, zap, if she heeled she got a good girl. If not it was repeated. It took twice. From then on, heel meant heel. It’s a very effective tool if you are trained in its proper use. 

I feel the best method is to make it an unpleasant experience. I heard things like upside down car mats, the kind with rubber spikes or something set up to fall and startle them by making a loud noise.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

murphy1 said:


> Put the shock collar on your arm and give yourself a good shot!!! They are cruel and painful. Keep the stuff out of reach while you train the dog to stay off.


They are not painful when used correctly. You don’t just crank it up on high and zap the dog. I’ve actually used mine as a TENS unit on myself. If I can sit and zap myself for ten minutes there’s no way it’s hurting my dogs.


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## Peri29 (Aug 5, 2017)

???????
I AM BASICALLY UNDER SHOCK.
SOMEONE PLEASE REINTERPRET THIS POST FOR ME!!!
No need to own a dog. If you really want a good behaving(!) GR, what about buying a giant frame of a golden retriever picturing sitting nicely on her bed and hang it on a wall.
That way ,she can behave 24/7 . No counter surfing, no jumping on the sofa, not even walking, kissing, hugging, not even breathing. Perfect dog!!
No need of a shock collar, a picture frame is adequate enough.


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## Peri29 (Aug 5, 2017)

The issue is not "it hurts or not".The issue is that the ABC graduate behaviourists who follow trainer(!) Cesar's Salad!!!No dog should be trained via shock collar.Frightening,shocking is not a way to train a dog or any animal.It causes unease,disturbed feelings and mixed signals to the dog.Dog's brain works different.They see just a bench or a Counter and will associate anything similar to an object Frightening.The Dog is not doing anything wrong.Even a gr has forest animal instincts.They find food,they eat it because they do not know if they will Ever find it again.And especially training goldens are different than most of the dogs.They learn when they witness their owners getting happy when they do sth right. Let's start everyone wearing a shock collar each time we do sth wrong ,we open the refrigerator when we are bored or hungry etc etc .They are dogs .As humans we cannot control our instincts how can we expect from them to control?? It is our duty to take every measurements to eliminate anything provoking to the dog if The behaviour disturbs us.It 's The owner' s duty not The dogs.You are trying to impose on them rules which your children cannot even follow.You brought a dog to your natural environment and cannot expect from them to change their basic instincts.


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## David Pearson (Aug 30, 2018)

The click training video is very good. I use her video to teach Stuart not to bite me all the time. 

We use training classes and a clicker.

Thanks Puddles for the video link, I have not saw that one yet...


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Peri29 said:


> The issue is not "it hurts or not".The issue is that the ABC graduate behaviourists who follow trainer(!) Cesar's Salad!!!No dog should be trained via shock collar.Frightening,shocking is not a way to train a dog or any animal.It causes unease,disturbed feelings and mixed signals to the dog.Dog's brain works different.They see just a bench or a Counter and will associate anything similar to an object Frightening.The Dog is not doing anything wrong.Even a gr has forest animal instincts.They find food,they eat it because they do not know if they will Ever find it again.And especially training goldens are different than most of the dogs.They learn when they witness their owners getting happy when they do sth right. Let's start everyone wearing a shock collar each time we do sth wrong ,we open the refrigerator when we are bored or hungry etc etc .They are dogs .As humans we cannot control our instincts how can we expect from them to control?? It is our duty to take every measurements to eliminate anything provoking to the dog if The behaviour disturbs us.It 's The owner' s duty not The dogs.You are trying to impose on them rules which your children cannot even follow.You brought a dog to your natural environment and cannot expect from them to change their basic instincts.


What? You should come on over and convince my girl that it’s so scary and evil. She doesn’t get it. Silly girl thinks it means she gets to go pick up birds. 

If you REALLY want to offend my dogs put them in a cone collar. Training tools mean something fun is coming.


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## Peri29 (Aug 5, 2017)

Abeille said:


> What? You should come on over and convince my girl that it’s so scary and evil. She doesn’t get it. Silly girl thinks it means she gets to go pick up birds.
> 
> If you REALLY want to offend my dogs put them in a cone collar. Training tools mean something fun is coming.


Bravo!!!! Then we must be stupid in banning those collars in most of the parts in Europe including UK. You do this in Germany and Switzerland ,the outcome will definitely be not nice. 
It also started in US. I believe in Quebec as well. 
It is for people who do not train themselves and choose the easy way out to have a dog.
I believe you find it silly. I do not find it silly at all . Appearantly , soon none of the states in US will find it silly aswell.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Peri29 said:


> Bravo!!!! Then we must be stupid in banning those collars in most of the parts in Europe including UK. You do this in Germany and Switzerland ,the outcome will definitely be not nice.
> It also started in US. I believe in Quebec as well.
> It is for people who do not train themselves and choose the easy way out to have a dog.
> I believe you find it silly. I do not find it silly at all . Appearantly , soon none of the states in US will find it silly aswell.


I do think it’s kind of ridiculous to take training tools out of the hands of people who use them correctly. I went to a good trainer and learned how to use it correctly. Like with ANY tool, not just dog training, the tool is only as good or as bad as the person using it. Hammers are great tools until they are put in the hands of someone who intends harm. You can’t ban just ban a tool because someone used it wrong.


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## OscarsDad (Dec 20, 2017)

Great discussion. It took us about two years to train Oscar to consistently come when called and to stay with us when we are working on our land. It was, at times, frustrating, with a few steps back and many forward. BUT it was a completely positive experience for him. There were never any aversive interventions, just time, patience, and consistency. For a dog who was living on the streets for several years, we could do no less for him than be lovingly positive in our training. And he responded. Expedient methods do not necessarily yield the best long term results.


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## Ivyacres (Jun 3, 2011)

I also prefer positive training. 



Years ago I saw this video of a guy testing a bark collar, it makes me laugh every time I view it. The guys facial expressions and the sound of his feet tapping is too much.
This isn't an endorsement for a product or training technique, just a funny video (IMHO)

Here's the addy if you want to see it.


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## Peri29 (Aug 5, 2017)

OscarsDad said:


> Great discussion. It took us about two years to train Oscar to consistently come when called and to stay with us when we are working on our land. It was, at times, frustrating, with a few steps back and many forward. BUT it was a completely positive experience for him. There were never any aversive interventions, just time, patience, and consistency. For a dog who was living on the streets for several years, we could do no less for him than be lovingly positive in our training. And he responded. Expedient methods do not necessarily yield the best long term results.


I am soooo happy for Oscar and thankful to you for being patient with him. Türkish streets & forests are dangerous. Not only because feral animals, sometimes also stray dogs but first of all because of the psychopath human beings(!). They make a dog or cat loose faith in humans. I know that you had to put up with a lot when it comes to Oscar and he could not have found a better family than you0


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Put that collar on your arm and hit the button,,,,,,it's awful. A trainer gave one to my son for his dog,,,,,I threatened him with bodily harm if he put it on Mookie!!!
How about some common sense and put things where the dog can't reach it!


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

Rukie is my third Golden and he's 2 years old. Not once have any of them gotten anything off the counter even though we leave bread and other items on there all the time. They have all had full access to the kitchen too. I'm no great dog trainer but for me this issue is a non-negotiable thing. The first time they put their front feet up in the kitchen I smack the palm of my hand loudly on the countertop and tell them off or leave it. If it happens again, same thing and that has always solved the problem. We can also set a plate with food on the end table and leave the family room and they have all left it alone. I'm not saying this to let you know how great we are but to say, it's completely possible to train a dog to leave food alone. I think it just takes determination and an early start. (not a shock collar)


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

pt3407 said:


> Has anyone here in this forum had luck removing the issue of counter surfing by using a shock collar? My girl gets off the counters or kitchen table when we say "uh uh" but still does it anyways. We plan to place a mirror in the room so that even when we are "gone", she will get a shock when she jumps onto the counter or table.



No shock collar for this. 
Keep your tables and counters neat and clean. You are removing his reward and encouraging extinction of the behavior if you do keep them clean. Just like you would baby proof a house.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

murphy1 said:


> Put that collar on your arm and hit the button,,,,,,it's awful. A trainer gave one to my son for his dog,,,,,I threatened him with bodily harm if he put it on Mookie!!!
> How about some common sense and put things where the dog can't reach it!



I don't want to get into a discussion about misuse of training tools but...
I have put that collar on my fingers, my wrist, AND MY NECK. It was not awful and this is not an opinion, it is an observation. My collar has adjustable levels (1 to 127) and is used by many American field trainers. SURPRISE: My dog feels a level of stimulation that I cannot detect on myself. 



I do agree---keep things out of reach. I am doing work with someone whose dog is grabbing unattended food off the table. He grabs shoes too. Solution is simple. I would never use the remote training collar for this.




Sounds to me like your experience may be due to: 1) malfunction of collar 2) inappropriate level of stimulation 3) cheap collar. What brand collar did you have and did you read the instructions? Did you get any training on its use?


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

I'm on my 3rd Golden, I've never had a counter surfer yet but..........I do not leave anything out on my counters either. 

I live in a warm/humid climate, if I left any food out, I would have a huge bug problem-you're just asking for trouble if you do.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Absolutely nothing makes Tito happier than seeing his e-collar come out. Woooo hoooo, we're going hunting!




Abeille said:


> What? You should come on over and convince my girl that it’s so scary and evil. She doesn’t get it. Silly girl thinks it means she gets to go pick up birds.
> 
> If you REALLY want to offend my dogs put them in a cone collar. Training tools mean something fun is coming.


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## Peri29 (Aug 5, 2017)

murphy1 said:


> Put that collar on your arm and hit the button,,,,,,it's awful. A trainer gave one to my son for his dog,,,,,I threatened him with bodily harm if he put it on Mookie!!!
> How about some common sense and put things where the dog can't reach it!



It is holistic love versus plastic love. 
Sometimes, people prefer not to be awakened. It is to their benefit.
Nothing can change their mind because it is more advantageous:|


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Peri29 said:


> Bravo!!!! Then we must be stupid in banning those collars in most of the parts in Europe including UK. You do this in Germany and Switzerland ,the outcome will definitely be not nice.
> It also started in US. I believe in Quebec as well.
> It is for people who do not train themselves and choose the easy way out to have a dog.
> I believe you find it silly. I do not find it silly at all . Appearantly , soon none of the states in US will find it silly aswell.


Oh, you have no clue.

Ceasar Milan? Really? E-collars were around decades before Milan was even born. The first commercially produced E-collar was available before Milan was even born. 

Breeders and trainers in Europe and the UK didn't want E-collars because they were concerned for the well being of their Breeding Programs. They were very worried that they could lose behavior characteristics that took hundreds of years to achieve, in just a generation or two. Those are very valid concerns.


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## Peri29 (Aug 5, 2017)

Swampcollie said:


> Oh, you have no clue.
> 
> Ceasar Milan? Really? E-collars were around decades before Milan was even born. The first commercially produced E-collar was available before Milan was even born.
> 
> Breeders and trainers in Europe and the UK didn't want E-collars because they were concerned for the well being of their Breeding Programs. They were very worried that they could lose behavior characteristics that took hundreds of years to achieve, in just a generation or two. Those are very valid concerns.


And that's a very good reason for being against e-shock collars. A dog is a dog and we do not wish to play around with their basic instincts & as you said behaviour charasteristics of them. If one wishes to have a dog which is not countersurfing or whatever it is, let them get a sheep or similar as pets. I gave example of CM because ABC and his graduates ( should not even say graduates it is just a post secondary program not even an University) are still using it which will soon cease of course. Having a dog is not raising it however it is convenient to your needs and apply unnatural training methods. It's called conditional love.


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

When Kismet was a pup counter surfing was an issue but with positive training methods and persistence combined with keeping temptations off of the counter when we aren't around it was resolved. Kismet has a "spot" in the entranceway of the kitchen where he was trained to go to when we are preparing food and he wants to be close to check it all out. He learned that when he is laying in his spot he gets the occasional treat or piece of food we are preparing tossed to him. It's all about rewarding when they are giving you the desired behaviour.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> I'm on my 3rd Golden, I've never had a counter surfer yet but..........I do not leave anything out on my counters either.
> 
> I live in a warm/humid climate, if I left any food out, I would have a huge bug problem-you're just asking for trouble if you do.


 Well maybe I was not specific enough. We don't live with filthy counters. I'm talking about sandwich bread in the wrapper, baked goods cooling on the counter, dog treats in their packages.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

cwag said:


> Well maybe I was not specific enough. We don't live with filthy counters. I'm talking about sandwich bread in the wrapper, baked goods cooling on the counter, dog treats in their packages.



I wasn't saying that, sorry you took it that way..............

Bugs are god awful here, if you leave anything out even if it is in a bag or some other type of container, it attracts bugs.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Peri29 said:


> And that's a very good reason for being against e-shock collars._* A dog is a dog *_and we do not wish to play around with their basic instincts & as you said behaviour charasteristics of them. If one wishes to have a dog which is not countersurfing or whatever it is, let them get a sheep or similar as pets. I gave example of CM because ABC and his graduates ( should not even say graduates it is just a post secondary program not even an University) are still using it which will soon cease of course. Having a dog is not raising it however it is convenient to your needs and apply unnatural training methods. It's called conditional love.



That's where you're wrong. You're making an assumption, and it's an incorrect one. The behavior characteristics of the dogs are not the same.


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## Peri29 (Aug 5, 2017)

Swampcollie said:


> That's where you're wrong. You're making an assumption, and it's an incorrect one. The behavior characteristics of the dogs are not the same.


Dear, I am not the one you need to convince. You are just making maneuvres to dillute the subject. 
My beliefs system is fixed and will not change which is the welfare of animals and their rights.
It is very much clear that we are living on a total different dimension and any discussion will be unnecessary because there is nothing to discuss about. 
Your opinion and my opinion differ from eachother since we present totally two different poles of approach to pet ownership. 
Let's say all my dogs are sitting on the couches and there is no place to sit for me. I am the one who end up sitting on the floor and one of my priorities are the health treatment & lodging of rescued animals. Therefore, I will be not a good counterpart for you to prove your point to. When you witness the death of your rescued or own dogs in which you invested that much effort , believe me seeing the elderly or sick ones countersurfing them is a delight for me. It is a sign that they still hang on. Having bought them, rescued them, adopted them does not give me or any human being the right for interfering with their nature. It does not make me their boss or god. It is a personal choice and I accept the full package from the beginning with their all pros and cons. They do not ask from me to be rescued and it does not give me any title over them .

However, if you want your point to reach more people , you can always start a discussion at change.org with title " Stop banning e-collars" or hopefully the time will arrive when all the states will ban e-collars and you will have plenty to discuss with authorities.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

murphy1 said:


> Put that collar on your arm and hit the button,,,,,,it's awful. A trainer gave one to my son for his dog,,,,,I threatened him with bodily harm if he put it on Mookie!!!
> How about some common sense and put things where the dog can't reach it!


I have used it on myself. It doesn’t hurt. Of course, if you crank it all the way up it might hurt. I have a problem in my neck and used the collar as a TENS unit until I could get to the store. 

I’m sure most, if not all of us, keep our counters clean. Every once in a while though, someone will leave something out. Or maybe they don’t have a sprawling kitchen and have to leave things on the counter. Dogs can be taught not to counter surf if you put the time into it..


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Peri29 said:


> Dear, I am not the one you need to convince. You are just making maneuvres to dillute the subject.
> My beliefs system is fixed and will not change which is the welfare of animals and their rights.
> It is very much clear that we are living on a total different dimension and any discussion will be unnecessary because there is nothing to discuss about.
> Your opinion and my opinion differ from eachother since we present totally two different poles of approach to pet ownership.
> ...


Oh wow. Dogs don’t get the couch if a person wants it around here.


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## Peri29 (Aug 5, 2017)

Abeille said:


> Oh wow. Dogs don’t get the couch if a person wants it around here.


This means, our thesis cannot compete because they cannot even compare:x
Try someone else or somewhere else....


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Peri29 said:


> This means, our thesis cannot compete because they cannot even compare:x
> Try someone else or somewhere else....



Oh I know what it means....


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

This has got to be one of the weirdest threads out there


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## jeffscott947 (Jun 9, 2019)

K9-Design said:


> This has got to be one of the weirdest threads out there[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Different..that's for sure!
> Personally, I will stick with the squirt gun idea! LOL


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

They have been talking about this on the radio a lot lately and it makes me think of this thread every time. 



http://https://www.amazon.com/Pavlo...93&s=gateway&sprefix=shock+bra,aps,148&sr=8-1


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