# Food Training Habit - How Do you Wean?



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

This is something that have found kind of an interesting answer to for Flip. I think most people know I am against using food as a lure once the dog knows the exercise. However, I have found that if Flip is really struggling to give me attention heeling in a busy environment, it really helps if I do a little heeling with a treat held in his focus spot. (a la Celeste Meade, although my treat is held at my boob of course ). So far I have not had any backlash from doing this. I think the key is to only do it occasionally and when I do use it I do it once as a reminder of exactly where his focus should be, and after that it is expected from him.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Loisiana said:


> This is something that have found kind of an interesting answer to for Flip. I think most people know I am against using food as a lure once the dog knows the exercise. However, I have found that if Flip is really struggling to give me attention heeling in a busy environment, it really helps if I do a little heeling with a treat held in his focus spot. (a la Celeste Meade, although my treat is held at my boob of course ). So far I have not had any backlash from doing this. I think the key is to only do it occasionally and when I do use it I do it once as a reminder of exactly where his focus should be, and after that it is expected from him.


Yup. I do this too. IMO, if a dog truly understands the exercise, and has been weaned off lures previously in training, the occasional giant sub-title of a cookie on his nose isn't likely to backfire when used to jump-start attention in a specific situation. BUT -- I also think it's important to recognize that the dog needs it and produce the lure first, rather than attempt something, realize the dog is too distracted and then suddenly start waving the cookie in front of him.


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

When the dog knows what is expected, to focus on you and you start with the cookie on your focus spot. Do you give a pop correction should the dog look away if no cookie is there to motivate? I'm noticing my dog looking away when heeling and then looking back at me to see where we are in the heeling pattern. This is happening where there are lots of distractions.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Happy said:


> When the dog knows what is expected, to focus on you and you start with the cookie on your focus spot. Do you give a pop correction should the dog look away if no cookie is there to motivate? I'm noticing my dog looking away when heeling and then looking back at me to see where we are in the heeling pattern. This is happening where there are lots of distractions.


Before I wean off food, I make sure to train in highly distracting areas -- to teach the dog the desired behavior remains the same regardless of where we are doing it.

How much training have you done around myriad distractions?


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

I've only done the occasional training in busy areas. I guess I had better get the treats out and do stationary attention first increasing the distractions? Then do I start taking one to two heeling steps with the cookie in the focus area once the stationary is good? Actually he is pretty good at stationary attention. It is when we start heeling is when he wants a bit of a look around.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Happy said:


> I've only done the occasional training in busy areas. I guess I had better get the treats out and do stationary attention first increasing the distractions? Then do I start taking one to two heeling steps with the cookie in the focus area once the stationary is good? Actually he is pretty good at stationary attention. It is when we start heeling is when he wants a bit of a look around.


Yup. That's probably what I'd do. I also do a lot of rewarding right after stepping off. I find a lot of dogs initially drop their head on the first step or two. I continue to do lots of rewarding take-offs long after the dog is at the point where he can heel several steps with attention. It also keep the reinforcement on a random schedule once the dog is familiar with the job. Sometimes he gets the cookie after 1 step ... sometimes 5 steps ... sometimes 18 steps, sometimes 8 steps, etc.

Training in lots of different places is one of the best things, IMO. I generally tell my students (pet and performance) that you want to see the dog able to work to your level of satisfaction in at least six different areas - with varying distractions - before it's fair to start thinking he "knows" whatever the task is.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Yup. I do this too. IMO, if a dog truly understands the exercise, and has been weaned off lures previously in training, the occasional giant sub-title of a cookie on his nose isn't likely to backfire when used to jump-start attention in a specific situation. BUT -- I also think it's important to recognize that the dog needs it and produce the lure first, rather than attempt something, realize the dog is too distracted and then suddenly start waving the cookie in front of him.


I don't think I disagree with this... <- And I do use treats while warming up with my guy. As jackpot rewards (we do a bunch of stuff and sometimes he gets praise or play, other times I'm pulling a treat out of my pocket) vs lures (that treat is out the entire time without expecting the dog to find position and hold it without the aid of that treat luring him). 

So I'm not necessarily saying wean off food training altogether. Or not in the case of the dog expecting treats. It's more like how do you as a trainer wean off your reliance on having a treat or toy to get through to your dog. *Weaning off heavy reliance on treats to hold your dog's focus.* You can't take treats into the ring with you, and when you are at a show they are not as high value as they might be at class. 

So what do you do _in your pre-ring warm up_ to bridge that gap if your dog is spacing out to the extent that even knowing you have treats nearby isn't completely breaking his focus on other things?


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> This is something that have found kind of an interesting answer to for Flip. I think most people know I am against using food as a lure once the dog knows the exercise. However, I have found that if Flip is really struggling to give me attention heeling in a busy environment, it really helps if I do a little heeling with a treat held in his focus spot. (a la Celeste Meade, although my treat is held at my boob of course ). So far I have not had any backlash from doing this. I think the key is to only do it occasionally and when I do use it I do it once as a reminder of exactly where his focus should be, and after that it is expected from him.


Oh I agree! This is what I have been taught. You may be off visible food in a less busy environment, but when you add distractions you might take a step or two back to make it easy on the dog (who is learning how to deal with the new distractions). But that is like anything with training really--when you add distraction/change environment you may need to take a step or two back in training to help the dog.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I try not to use a lot of food to begin with for this reason--but it is helpful in some situations, and most definitely helpful when teaching the initial steps of a behavior. What you can do is limit yourself to how much food you take with you for a training session. Make yourself make it stretch--ask more from your dog. Start using play and praise as a reward. 

Another thing I do is when I am around the house is stop and ask my dog to do quick random things for fun. No food, no toys. Just ask her to heel for a second, to pivot, stand, etc. Then I goose her and we play. Nothing formal.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Yup. I do this too. IMO, if a dog truly understands the exercise, and has been weaned off lures previously in training, the occasional giant sub-title of a cookie on his nose isn't likely to backfire when used to jump-start attention in a specific situation. BUT -- I also think it's important to recognize that the dog needs it and produce the lure first, rather than attempt something, realize the dog is too distracted and then suddenly start waving the cookie in front of him.


I am 100% with this. Once the dog is working for me and not for food, there's no harm in occasionally luring in order to activate a different part of his brain for focus.

When I work with my guys, I'll do entire parts of a session with no cookies at all. They'll work for pure praise, or a game, or the compete insanity of the noises and motions I'm making. They have no idea if cookies will be part of the game or not. They work for me, and they trust me to make it fun. I always hide treats until they're being given, but even so, I think to make sure that plenty of sessions have no treats at all. So if all of a sudden, even in a no-cookie context, there's a cookie leading their nose precisely through something I want, that's not the same as bribing the dog through the exercise with a lure.

So in exactly the same context (i.e., right before competing), you might see a pro luring a dog who's not lure-dependent, and you might see a rank amateur waving a cookie a their dog. It could look the same, but the context changes everything.

Food is a real crutch when it's used as a bribe (that doesn't mean you can't use it as one, just that you can't depend on it permanently that way). When it's used properly as a reinforcer (and not typically as motivator), using it for precise control of a dog's nose or to get him into the right state of mind seems like a good idea to me.

My one proviso is that I don't compete formally like you guys, so take my input with a grain of salt.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I'm thinking about your real question ... how to wean off food. I don't wean off food entirely. It's always part of my training. But I think you're asking for thoughts on how to wean off food/toys to the extend that the dog can do an entire performance w/o getting food/toys as a reward.

I have to think about how I do it, because I think I do it without really thinking about it at the time. It's very gradual. With attention heeling, for example, I start with food in hand, on the nose and work up to on a sick, then the stick is attached to the armband, then the stick gets shorter, then the stick is barely long enough to hold the treat (so the treat is flush against the armband), then the stick is gone and the treat is tucked between the armband and my arm. Those transitions probably happen over 18 months. By the time the food is tucked into the armband, it's not really visible, but the dog has learned the habit of head-up and knows that food *might* come out of the armband ... the same armband we wear in the ring.

With toys, I generally have two or three on me, hidden, that I can whip out at any time. I like to think my dogs believes I'm a magician who can magically make something fun appear.

IMO, one of the biggest mistakes I see people make is not rewarding enough. They like seeing the dog working, so they keep doing it. Just because the dog *can* give you 12 steps of nice heeling, doesn't mean he should have to before getting a reward. Pay at 5 steps... then 3 steps ... than 11 steps. I reward a ton. Lots of play, petting, food, etc. all through training. I personally think it's because I reward so much in general that I can go into the ring or work for a long stretch w/o a tangible reward. Using so many rewards in training has helped make the game itself fun enough to withstand the lack of primary reinforcers in a ring environment. I also believe that all the play/rewarding, etc. in training strengthens my secondary reinforcers that I *can* use in the ring.

I think somewhere you asked what happens if a dog won't even focus for food at a show? For me, that would be a sign that the dog needs more exposure to show environments -- more training that shows are just as fun. I go to shows and hang out and doodle train all the time. There's definitely a different "vibe" at a show, and I like for my dog to be used to that vibe (and able to work around it) before actually entering him. Or maybe he was just having an off day -- that happens too.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I think somewhere you asked what happens if a dog won't even focus for food at a show? For me, that would be a sign that the dog needs more exposure to show environments -- more training that shows are just as fun. I go to shows and hang out and doodle train all the time. There's definitely a different "vibe" at a show, and I like for my dog to be used to that vibe (and able to work around it) before actually entering him. Or maybe he was just having an off day -- that happens too.


I totally agree with this. I would seriously hate going directly from fun matches to trials without show proofing your dog at trials in-between. Because even between fun matches and trials, there is a different feel. 

I think hanging out at shows and spending a few hours sitting ringside helps the owners as well. At least it does with me... <- I would be a nervous wreck if I didn't have a half hour to mentally prep myself. In fact, I doubt I'd even LIKE obedience work if the only trials I went to with my dog were those that we were entered in. 



> With toys, I generally have two or three on me, hidden, that I can whip out at any time. I like to think my dogs believes I'm a magician who can magically make something fun appear.


So you are one of those trainers with stuffingfree squirrels poking out the back of your pants....


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Megora said:


> I totally agree with this. I would seriously hate going directly from fun matches to trials without show proofing your dog at trials in-between. Because even between fun matches and trials, there is a different feel.
> 
> I think hanging out at shows and spending a few hours sitting ringside helps the owners as well. At least it does with me... <- I would be a nervous wreck if I didn't have a half hour to mentally prep myself. In fact, I doubt I'd even LIKE obedience work if the only trials I went to with my dog were those that we were entered in.
> 
> So you are one of those trainers with stuffingfree squirrels poking out the back of your pants....


I make sure I'm at the show a minimum of an hour before the class starts.... and I generally like more time that that, but on Saturday with my class starting at 8am, my being the second dog in, and the hour + drive to get there ... we settled on an hour early and left the house at 5;45. I am NOT a morning person. (I also went the day before to play and train.) Before I do any warm up, I let him just be a dog and check it all out. We walk all around the site and then often just sit and watch for a while. Then I start a warm up process - which, for me, is first rewarding offered attention as we walk around again ... and then I warm up the exercises.

Yes... I often have a toy shoved down the back of my pants... with another in my front pocket! :


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I always have a tail hanging out of my pants. Make sure you remove it before using the bathroom. :uhoh:


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> I always have a tail hanging out of my pants. Make sure you remove it before using the bathroom. :uhoh:


 I almost walked into the ring on Sunday with a frisbee stuffed in the back of my pants.:doh:


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