# Article Frustration



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Has she been forced to the pile? This can contribute greatly to snatch 'n grab. If not, she may just not understand you want her to use her nose 

How I start my dogs learning to use their noses is:

> Wait until after dark
> Put an article in a room without a light with the dog waiting outside the door
> Invite my dog into the room, close the door and tell him/her to find it
> Gradually get more creative in placement so your dog really needs to start using their nose

The first time or 2 it may take awhile but then it becomes a delightful game where the dog can only find the article by using their nose.

I will at around the same time start using a modified Around The Clock method where in a lighted room, I click & treat approximations of scenting - they investigate, reach for, nose touch, take it, return with it etc. Add an article after 2 successes etc

I tried the board twice; once with my King who never figured it out until the articles came off the board and once with Faelan who literally stomped on the board with his front feet and yanked his chosen (tied down) article right off the board -- multiple times at an obedience seminar. The presenter told me to keep working it - I did not but went back to the method combination above.


Good luck! Have fun


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Ann - I couldn't do the full RTC (ATC?) thing with Bertie. It was too many reps and I could literally see the steam coming out of his ears and he'd start stressing out. 

When he stresses out - that's when he does the blind grab stuff. It doesn't have anything to do with his nose - he has a really good nose. I showed a video earlier... where with him kept out of sight.... if I put a stick on the other side of the yard and put it with a bunch of other sticks. He will follow my footsteps and zero in on the stick I handled. Knowing he does that - I know without a doubt that the flake-outs I get with articles are primarily burnout. 

How I'm working on that is just quick practice - and just 1-2 article finds in a session. And that can be putting the whole pile out there. As opposed to building the pile one article at a time. Just space them out a little more to help or put fewer articles if needed.

Other thing to throw out there - if she's just not working the metals very well. See how she does with wood articles. They may hold your scent better than the metal (though the metal warms up better). 

And another thing - when I was teaching articles to Jacks - before I decided to retire him... he smelled peanut butter better than the cheese wiz. And I could just dab a tiny drop on my hands like lotion and rub the articles. Then with Bertie - I never put a visual dab on the articles. It was just the tiny dab I scented my hands with.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

No way wood. I'm trying to stop her chewing on the leather. Wood would not work. I'd rather use it than metal. 

She smells the cheese whiz fine. She LOVES her cheese whiz. It's a favorite in this house.... Just ask Gabby (roll eyes here...)

It could be stress but I know signs of stress Quinn shows, she doesn't show them. She just grabs....


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

1. What do you do when she just grabs? You said you are using around the clock, are you actually following ALL the steps of Around the Clock? (I'm asking because most of the time when people say they are trying to use around the clock and it isn't working, it then comes out that they aren't really using the whole method).

2. You said she's been successful up to today. I find some dogs just have "bad scent" days. If I have a dog that is usually succesful with articles but just keeps going out and grabbing repeatedly on a day, I just pack it up and move on. Usually the next time I go to work on it the dog is back to being successful.

3. Have you done any tracking with her? Phoenix is the first dog I ever did any tracking with, and he picked up articles like he was born doing them. I think tracking helped teach him to think about using his nose in a training context.


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## ellisda1 (Jul 24, 2013)

Just a thought from a novice - do you have a "Nope - try again" command? Luna has no trouble with the metal dumbbells, and has no issues carrying the leather ones, but it almost appears that the leather articles hide my scent a bit. I can send her to work the pile, and if she grabs the wrong article I can stop her immediately with the "try again -drop it". When she retrieves the correct article and returns it to me she gets praised and treated. We've made excellent progress lately.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

So my Katy Perry took to article retrieving like a duck to water. I hot scent the article, but my hands also have food scent on them. I use a peg board. Always start with metal. The trainer I work with has several recommendations for my dog. One is to not start when she is higher than a kite, work the articles when she is a tad more tired. Do not do articles after a dumbbell retrieve as that might encourage the dog to quickly retrieve any article... And sometimes, there is a treat at the entrance to the articles to slow KP down as she goes to sniff the articles. I never make a sound until she has picked up the correct article and has started to come toward me, then I call her to me.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Jodie - No to tracking. She is a field dog so we don't go there. I probably am not doing all the steps of ATC I'm doing what my trainer said. We can't get past 4 articles, without her unable to get the correct article. Yes I know they have bad days but we've hit this wall so many times I truly think she is not getting it. No light bulb moments. We are close to the pile, facing the pile, I feel hen she gets the right one it's because she watched. I'm just at a loss for what to do since I don't have experience to draw off from. 

I try not to make a big deal about wrong articles since they are naturally high pressure. I do say "uh oh" or "try again" and have resented and put back in the same spot to try again. Once she starts picking up the wrong one she can't make it right. Last night she started turning to come back without anything but knew that was wrong went back and got one. 

I'm confused, concerned (I want her to learn this exercise) and frustrated. I stop once I hit frustration. Like I said Gabby was easy. And she is rarely wrong. Knock on wood she's always been right at a trial.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I would buy the Around the Clock video. It sounds like there are lots of steps that you are missing from the process that would help you get through this.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

I tried the around the clock and tie down method with Lexx and he didn't care for either.

I simply started with 2 articles (metal) and scented one with vanilla. Something that smells nice and would get his attention but didn't necessarily want to lick. I didn't use cheese whiz or peanut butter as I didn't want him to get hung up on stopping to eat at the pile. All I wanted from him was to indicate the scented one and when he did, praised him. When he was able to indicate the scented one several times in a row successfully, I added another and went through the same process. Once had he that figured out, I would ask him to "take it" and hand it to me. Once he understood the concept of picking out the scent, I switched over to using my own scent. We then worked on leather and then wood using the same process and finally the full set. Lexx was very quick to learn his articles and is very accurate when doing them.

I also agree with Jodie that tracking definitely helps them use their noses but if she doesn't track, then it doesn't matter!!

Good luck!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have trained exactly one dog to a UD and am currently training articles to the two youngest dogs in my house, so be no means an expert. The first trainer I worked with who helped me with my UD girl is the one who got me started on the peg board. Basically, she wanted everything tied down except the scented article, so my Laney could not make a mistake. I was taught to be silent..no yes when she got the correct one and no negative comment when she did not. In fact, doing it this way, I do not think she ever made a mistake...in training or eventual competition. I was taught that the more you intervene, the harder it will be for the dog to make an independent decision....


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@Janice - that is a mistake I've made with Bertie. Am getting over it, but was really tough not cheerleading or correcting... and had to back up quite a bit to undo the damage.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> I have trained exactly one dog to a UD and am currently training articles to the two youngest dogs in my house, so be no means an expert. The first trainer I worked with who helped me with my UD girl is the one who got me started on the peg board. Basically, she wanted everything tied down except the scented article, so my Laney could not make a mistake. I was taught to be silent..no yes when she got the correct one and no negative comment when she did not. In fact, doing it this way, I do not think she ever made a mistake...in training or eventual competition. I was taught that the more you intervene, the harder it will be for the dog to make an independent decision....



That's how my trainer is. We don't correct at the pile we correct on the way back. Just an uh oh. Not a big deal same with praise. I don't praise until they are on the way back a step or two away from the pile so they quickly come back. Only early in training. Gabby I don't say anything. 

So using the tie down.... I get the dog can't be wrong but how does that teach them? Hope I'm not sounding weird I honestly don't know. Couldn't the dog just try each one until one is free? How do you stop them from the wrong one from being picked up in the transition? I'm game to try...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

In Around the Clock in the beginning you are in the pile with them, there is no bringing the article back to you so much as just picking it up off the floor. But before they pick it up you are praising them, while you have your left hand in the collar so you have control of the head, and a finger on the correct article. Also in the early weeks you have gobs of cheese and it is clearly visible to the dog. At first it is as much an exercise of vision as it is of scent. The full pile is worked every day from day one.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Ok one more thing. I send from a sit. After the "judge" says send your dog I let Gabby sniff my hand, pivot, sit, send. When I'm training Quinn and I've cheesed up my hand for article scenting, before I send her I offer my hand for her to sniff, she won't sniff that either despite the cheese on my hand. See why I think she's not understanding to use her nose. 

I'm so clueless what to do.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Thinking about this as I only know from my dogs in terms of tying things down. With Katy, my pup, I started with maybe five articles tied down. Now, I have more than five articles tied.. But if I were having trouble, I might just tie down two articles. She has never tried to test what is tied down or isn't...


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## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

I use tie-down as well. I taught Luna articles using Connie Cleveland's cookie tin method and then moved to the tie-down. Luna is 95% on every time we do articles but I haven't untied them. I take the board everywhere and practice new locations and distractions with it, I am not in a hurry to untie them. Just the other night, distractions were increased and she grabbed the wrong article and was corrected by it being tied down. I could tell it was harder with the distractions but also the scented article was smack in the middle. She then went back and grabbed the right one. Whenever she works, she always sniffs each article, but this time just ran in and grabbed whatever one she could to make the exercise as quick as possible because of the distractions. She doesn't just try each one with the tie-down, she understands the exercise and all it does is corrects her when she feels the pressure. I don't want her thinking she can just do a simple retrieve.


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## MaureenM (Sep 20, 2011)

We are just learning this too. Our instructor has us using the tie down method. At this point it's all metal, haven't even touched a leather. 

We started out with 2 tied with zip ties, and moved on to 4 tied down. I would say Finley is definitely using her nose, and after the initial 5 or 6 times of trying she hasn't attempted to pick up a wrong article. 

I called our instructor this week to see if I could tie anther one down (we haven't been to class in almost a month. Finley goes every other week, sharing class with Banshee. We had missed a week, then last week it was cancelled due to weather).

She said not to add to the pile, but that the next step would be to use fishing line on the 4 that are tied down. It'll be looser, and she tried to explain to me over the phone how to tie them using a button on the back of the board.. Yesterday I bought the line and buttons, but I think I'll just hold off until Monday's class to change things. This way she can show me how to tie them.

In reading the thread, I thought Sharon's idea of putting the article in a dark room and sending the dog to find it sounded like fun so I gave it a try the other night. Basically, had Finley sit and stay in the laundry room while I hid an article. She loved this! Taking off like a bullet to find it. The next day I brought the board out and did our usual practice. She again ran for the board, and seems to have a whole new take on the exercise. Not that she didn't like it before, but her over all enthusiasm definitely increased.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Another friend suggested I try the article in a dark room. I think I will try that. That shows (to me) the dog is scenting. 

Thanks, I know she she will get it I just need to learn how to help her.


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## LittleRedDawg (Oct 5, 2011)

I had to go through this with my Lab when we started articles - we'd done some FTP and she's certainly FF'd, *and* she gets stressed easily - so she tended toward a snatch-n-go in the pile.

1. Make it simple.... I use liverwurst, not cheese, even I can smell the correct article then. :lol:

2. Follow the ATC method exactly. Correct in the pile, show her the wrong article "no" and the right article "good find!" and then let her fetch the correct article.

3. It takes time to build confidence - this is why the repetitions in the ATC method are important. If you're doing it right you're probably going to be a little bored - not frustrated.

4. Never let the dog return with the wrong article. If you are silent, she is right. Always.

5. Be conscious of how you send her. I still have to think about this - my Lab has her GO and has passed Utility articles in the ring, though we're not quite ready for her UD - if my command sounds too forceful, she occasionally concludes we're just doing a retrieve and any 'ol article is OK. Mmmm.... nope!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I let my dog return with the incorrect article. I just take, reset and resend. They know no finish, no praise is just not right, try again. I find this helps their confidence and my dogs will figure it out quickly (like next try) without resorting to coming part way back and second guessing themselves, dropping their article and heading back to the pile (this is a pet peeve of mine and I'd rather my dog make a happy and honest mistake that to be unsure) works for me


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Sunrise said:


> I let my dog return with the incorrect article. I just take, reset and resend. They know no finish, no praise is just not right, try again. I find this helps their confidence ....


I could not agree with this more. Correcting in/at the pile creates "freezing" and major confidence issues. 
I may have missed it but early on someone asked if the dog had been "forced to the pile" in the field. Personally I have found it much easier to use the "tie down" method as opposed to ATC, as it helps prevent the dog from picking up the wrong article and returning, it makes them right.


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## LittleRedDawg (Oct 5, 2011)

Actually, I find less confidence issues when the dog understands you'll tell him if he's wrong, otherwise he can assume he's right.

And, the concept of silence = you're right pays off in the ring.

We have our issues in utility, but articles actually aren't one of them.


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## LittleRedDawg (Oct 5, 2011)

Obviously there's a lot of different ways to teach articles, the most important thing is figuring out how to communicate with your dog what you want. Dogs can adapt to almost any training method, but if the rules aren't clear to you, they will never be clear to your dog.


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