# HELP! I've got a rough player...



## Adriwise_Gamgee (Nov 30, 2005)

Hello everyone - hope you can help me out with this. 

I have a one year, one month old GR named Abraxas and she has no training whatsoever. The only thing I was ever thankful is the fact she was potty trained when we got her as a Christmas present for my son last year.

Other than that my brother decided to spoil her since we brought her in and teach her how to play rough. She either lays down between your legs when you're walking or bites your arm and pulls you down as to try and knock you off the floor.

I've tried to teach her tricks and some good manners but my brother insisted on "untrain" her and it was almost as he had pushed a delete button on her - up to the point where he's neglected her sole existence and the only thing he ever does for her is buy her food.

So it's actually up to me to teach this young pretty lady some manners in the little spare time I have. She does know a few basics as sit and "ball" but she'll only do it when she feels like it... not when I want her to which is what we are all trying to accomplish here.

I want her to be able to walk into and out of the house freely but being that she's so rough she's continually jumping on everyone and knocking my kid and my grandmother off their feet... and of course, my mother does not allow her to walk inside until she "calms down" which we all know wont happen until she's 4 years old and that's still a long way to run and I wouldn't like to have her with no training at all. 

She was not meant to be an outside dog, and Im desperately trying to get her to be allowed inside...

Please please please... I need as much help as I can get! 

Thanks everyone!


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

You're in luck,we just had a couple of posts about something simular.
Monomer gave some great advice on those posts.You need to do some reading,they were only a couple of days ago.I'll try to find them for you,
Shane


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## timberwolfe (Apr 15, 2005)

Your problem is not with the dog but with your brother. Any way of training him?

OK, in order to get a great dog, the dog needs structure and consistancy in it's life. It also needs exercise and attention. You can do your best with the little time you have and it will help a little, but if you train Abraxas to not jump, but then your brother encourages her to jump, she will be confused (lack of consistancy) and she will jump because it is more fun.

We can give you all kinds of advice on training techniques and what to expect, but you really need to get your brother to understand the severity of the situation. While Goldens are great tempered dogs and easy to train, they are also intelligent and if given the freedom they will do damage and they will be mouthy and they are capable of biting if not socialized and trained, just like any other dog. If because she is untrained she is banned from the house, she will not be happy and she will cause trouble. Dogs like that are often abandoned as problem dogs. The rescues are full of them. It is not the dogs fault, but they pay the price.

If your brother cares at all for his dog, he needs to listen to your concerns. If you have a dog who is unsocialized, untrained, and abandoned outdoors, it is just an accident waiting to happen. Especially if there is a kid involved. An unsocialized, untrained Golden is quite capable of biting your kid.


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## Adriwise_Gamgee (Nov 30, 2005)

HAHA... trust me I've tried to train my brother but he doesn't listen! 

I guess I must admit I'm kind of glad he's neglected Abraxas and hasn't been in contact with her lately - because that for sure gives me the oportunity to interact more with her.

We've always liked the breed and since our 2 previous dogs were on their way to dog heaven and didn't really like being bothered by my kid (he was 2 back then! Those of you with kids know how the "terrible twos" go... LOL) we thought a new puppy companion would do just fine... so in the beginning it was Ivan's dog (and in a way she still is, but of course it's up to us to do the training!) -

I made an attempt to correct her behavior a couple of months ago, and she was doing great after 5 days... until I found out, everytime I was done with the dog there would be a "certain interaction" that would invert what was being taught so I kinda gave up on it. 

I totally understand my bro might be upset at the fact that she gets sick when in a car, and that he realized they don't really come with a handbook one can follow and that looking after them and training them isn't as easy as he thought. But they're a responsibility and a new member to the family and we're supposed to help them and train them so everyone's in good terms with them and not kicking them outside for a playful behavior. Right?

So now that he's backed off again I'm trying to pick up where I left... doing the pat on the nose and saying no whenever she does something I don't want her to do or I do not approve of. Or saying ouch whenever she bites and tries to pull me down... and it works. Asides from that everything else is playing fetch though I don't think she understand she's supposed to bring the ball to me instead of picking it up and bringing it to a spot where she wants me to come and pick it and throw it at her... wait a minute, am I being trained by my dog here? LOL

I was thinking about getting her out for walks since she does pretty well... but it's been a while since her last walk outside, and even though she gets plenty of exercise in our backyard I do not know how she might react to cars people or other dogs passing by. (I forgot, she's not leash trained either...eek!)

So I'm open to any suggestions... I'll try everything and see what works the best for her... besides... I want her to sit still and let me take a picture of me with her, and not have her knock me off!


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## timberwolfe (Apr 15, 2005)

Well it sounds like you have the right attitude.

Just a couple things. Training does not mean long sessions, but rather short 15 minute sessions a couple times a day. I would work at Sit, Down, Stay and most importantly, Come. Get those commands down pat so you know she is 100%. Introduce distractions and increase distance so she listens from a distance as well. I find hand signals help too. I say learn those because if she is reliable with those you should be able to control her if she gets roudy. When Clancy was a puppy he was great with those commands, and when he did start getting roudy I could command SIT and he would obey, and I could then praise him and redirect his energy to something positive. Doing this I was also able to get him to sit everytime he greets someone at the door instead of jumping on people. Of course now he goes up and sits on their feet, but that is preferable to jumping. Always make training fun and finish with some play time. 

Anytime she gets any food or treats she should be made to sit or do some trick, but basically nothing is free. Make her work for everything. This helps reinforce you as Top Dog and will help with making her listen to your commands. If you get her exposed to other dogs for socialization it would help.

Let us know how she does.


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## goldiegirl (Nov 18, 2005)

I agree with Timber..My ex had a siberian husky (we got him together when he was 4mths) anyways, my ex would always say attack czar, attack in the playful way(meaning to me) well one day, he(my ex) was in the shower and guess what,the dog attacked me while I was sitting on the bed.. He jumped on my back and bit my neck. Your dog has to have 1 master. . My mom just moved in with me, she can give manhattan commands, she won't do it, the minute I come in the room, I will tell her the same thing, and without a flinch she will do it.. Dogs will find 1 person in the household to call mom or dad, the rest are siblings.. ..Its almost like giving your dog to a trainer for 2 mths, and you get the dog back, the dog won't listen to you, it will listen to the trainer. It takes time, I have my moments saying calgon take me away..but it is all worth it in the end. I don't want to come accross harsh, but look at it from the dogs view..I have someone that is my master, but won't guide me, and someone who guides me and says I belong to someone else.
Also with finally taking her for walks outside, besides the yard, you have to do it..since you have kids you will know how their brains are like sponges..same as a dog's development. Take her for a walk, go to your supermarket, or mall and sit there with her. She can absorb all the sounds and see the people. If someone says can I pet her, see how she is..use a shorter leash, a meaner NO. As she gets better, take her to a dog park..interaction is always good, and she gets her cabin fever out. Don't get upset if she doesn't bring the ball back to you, no dog is supposed to ,they are trained. Its the fun, the laughing at the pup. Manni just started getting it after repetion and time.

Did you investigate this breed before getting her? 
Having your brother stay away from her, and not understand what the training process is not good, the dog is going to wonder what did she do? 
How old is Ivan? Leash training ASAP, best to start in the backyard. 
How old was the pup when you got her? If you have had her since she was a pup, why didn't the training start as a baby, instead as 1 yr old?
Even though Manni is seizure alert dog, I did not get her with obedience training..I had to do it. Family is family, the dog will love everyone, but will know if she does something wrong, her master , the person she looks up to,will be upset, and she might not get the special biscuit. My mom insist doing things with manni that I said no to, when manni looks over her shoulder she rethinks it. My mom swears Manni understands everything I tell her and in the end its a great feeling.
P.S. I found a good way to teach Manni her tricks, was to get her fav. biscut(puperonnies) or used the little hot dogs, and started with the basic.I went to sit, down, stay, heel(she's still working on that) when she did the command correctly, I gave her a small piece, and stayed with it for 15-20 min a day. I only taught her one command at a time. Once she perfected sit, go to down or which you prefer(not in the same day)
God luck..I know its hard.:crossfing


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Hello Adriwise_Gamgee,

Welcome to our board. And all the way from Panama City. Wow. I have a couple of suggestions just based on my own very short experience, but its something to consider.

My puppy, is just 15 weeks old, but I suspect his playfulness and rough-housing tendencies will last well past a year...though I notice he's becoming more and more behaved with more and more interaction with our family and the on-going training.

It sounds like you have what I consider a cayotic family setting...an environment with several people of different ages. My setting is cayotic as I have two young ones...a 6 year old and 4 year old. And they are not genetically calm and controlled. I'm training them too. This is not a house of calm.

*The doggie crate has been my salvation.* When things get wild, Lucky can calm down in his crate but still be an integral part of our family. He is actually in it quite a bit, but has lots of walks and training time, and seems happy. I personally think it helps build his self-control.

I believe making your dog an integral part of your family important for her well-being and *your* sanity. For that, she has to be WITH your family.

I have a sad experience of a dog, my past dog, untrained, and left as an outside dog. Its a story I'll pour out in shame as a thread some day, but ultimately what happens is your dog is not a companion but a chore. Instead of easing your stress with soft kisses an untrained, outside dog will make your life harder to handle. A dog left inside while you are there, will be trained...because they learn to live within the environment.

*Crate training can really help you there.* I see no reason why your dog can't use and sleep in the crate while you are home, and stay outside while you are gone...if that is what is going on. I'm not sure if your dog is in or out right now. An older dog needs special training in using it, and manufacturers have resources for that.

Basically when your dog is out of control she goes in the crate for some calming time. Later you can let her out and do some treat training to get her focused on control. This also allows you training time within the house atmosphere...helping her learn the rules and regulatons of living within the house-hold and helping your family members bond with her.

I hope this helps. I wish all the luck.


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## Adriwise_Gamgee (Nov 30, 2005)

Goldie,
Yes - We did a lot of research before deciding to get the pup and it was a decision my brother and I took. And training her was a task we both agreed to either share or take care of. 

Since I have an odd work schedule and at the time we got her (she was about 2 months old) I had to work each and every weekend I didn't really hade time to spend with her so my brother was left in charge of the pup.

I did keep sending him ph#s and emails about Puppy training school, but he never got to enroll her - actually I don't really know how the story goes on that.

Anyhow, there's a bit more issues that go beyond what I am able to tell you about here - so my brother decided he was going to keep the dog locked up in his room all day long wether he was there or gone, and just let her go out to relieve herself. That's were all the gnawing on chair legs and stools began, where all the rough play took place - and yes, the only one person the pup would ever obey was my brother. 

Until he started facing some unexpected issues... like her getting sick on car rides, or the tick infestation. THEN and only then he decided she needed to sleep outside his room but he kept himself in there and slowly started to forget she exists.

My involvement on training Abraxas did not begin just now... I tried since she was 4 months old to teach her the good stuff but as I mentioned before, there would always be an "inverse reaction" to what I had just taught her - making it very unfair for both the dog and myself.

I still have odd schedules, and the only time I have free is in the mornings while my wild almost 4 year old kid is in school - and I barely have 1 hour to spend with her. But whatever time I'm able to spend with her it's always playing and trying to teach her how to sit. 

Regarding leash training - she's had some but she doesn't really know what does the pulling from the leash when she's doing something I don't want her to (like walking ahead of me or pulling me along) mean. That's why I took her out for a walk today, she was excited about it at first and pulling hard but after a couple of firm tugs and no's she finally got the point.

Trust me, I do regret not doing something about her (or my brother lol) some time before... but I'm willing to do my best to get her to get along with the family. She's an awesome dog, she just needs some attention - and I'm absolutely in love with her!!!


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## Adriwise_Gamgee (Nov 30, 2005)

Lucky's mom,
I think the crate training might work to get Abraxas adjusted and acquainted to the family but first I'd have to find a place in here where to get them... and that's a tough thing to do since we're not lucky enough to have stores like Petsmart and the like.

The few pet stores there are don't really have a wide variety of pet supplies... Bummer! 

I might still call some pet stores tomorrow and try to find out if there's any available.

Thanks for the suggestions... I really appreciate them! 

(NOTE TO SELF: As soon as the crate training begins pls remind Ivan dog crates with dogs inside are not to be used as piñatas - refer to previous experience with the parrot! EEK!)


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## goldiegirl (Nov 18, 2005)

What you just wrote was disturbing..I know you love her, but think of the situation she is in..is it fair to her. She needs to run, have family interaction besides 1 hour a day. Having your brother lock her up in his room..well I am speechless since to me that comes as animal cruelty. These are big dogs, need to socialize, spend time with their family. Crate training now I don't think would work since the life she knows is being locked in a room. Tick infestations..How? I know alot of people are going to dislike me right now, but I look at a dog No matter what breed as a child. You keep a child shunned away from people, it will be afraid, and shy. I know you looked into the breed, but you just said, "note to self, teach ivan that dogs inside should not be used as pinatas..previous experience with parrot!" These breeds live for human contact, play. Maybe you got her at a wrong time..if you stick her in a crate now, she will go back to what she remembers from your brothers room. Again, I know you love her, but look at the whole thing..Keeping her locked in a room was wrong, having her outside all the time is wrong. Did you ever think maybe calling the GR rescue. I know this is not what you want even suggested , but think of the dog.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Adriwise Gamgee,
We almost bought one from Ebay...but found a reasonable one from a small locally owned pet store here in Tulsa. The one's at Petsmart seemed so high. 

I have to remind my kids that Lucky's home is not there club house!!!!!

Good luck. Much of your problem will be over if the rest of your family bonds with Abraxas as you have.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Goldiegirl,
I respectfully submit that you are so wrong. The crate will work if it is used when Agriwise_Gamgee is home...which I assume is more then 1 hour a day. The dog will have to have careful training using it because she is grown. 

My understanding is that this is an outside dog, and it needs to be brought in and be made part of the family. It is hard to spend quality time with an outside dog. The family whole will not bond with an outside dog. So bringing him inside and using the crate under the watchful eye of Agriwise_Gamgee would be a viable solution. 

I doubt this dog is going to have terror of the crate because it was shut into a room when it was a puppy. That doesn't make sense to me. Aren't some dogs locked in a crate all day???? And that is not my suggestion for this dog (or any dog). It can be used when Agriwise_Gamgee is home. The crate will allow for socialization to a much greater extent than what she is getting now. 

And lastly...my own 4 year old has rapped and banged on Lucky's home and prodded him when Lucky was in it. They do that. They are....PUPPIES and must be trained and taught as well. I doubt it is something Agriwise_Gamgee will encourage or allow.


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## Adriwise_Gamgee (Nov 30, 2005)

Don't think you're getting it right... she *USED* to spend most of the time inside of my brother's room (between the 4th and 6th month). *NOT ANYMORE!* 

And trust me, she's far from being shy... and she's also got a heck of a backyard to exercise in now - so being kept inside a room with no space to run and play is *OUT OF THE QUESTION!*

Whatever happened in the past I'm trying to make it right for a change. Trying to pick up the mess after someone who doesn't really care about the dog, because I DO CARE! Otherwise I wouldn't be asking for help...

The parrot incident was just that... an incident... my kid, as every other kid, will get away with their share of mischief every now and then. I'm sure I did it as a kid as well as shaking bugs in a jar... who hasn't?

I'm aware it might take me a while to get Abraxas to adjust to my folks at home, as she might as well take a while to adjust to the whole idea I'm the one looking after her now - but being the great dog she is, and all she's gone through I'm willing to give ourselves a chance with her if she let's us.

And Lucky's mom's right... if I could crate train her she could stay inside the house in her crate while I'm here which is a good 4 hours before I have to go to work - and out of those 4 hours one I spend with her out in the yard playing and trying to teach her tricks.

As I've mentioned before I'm here looking for help, because I want to do something about it. If it doesn't work out then I'll do what's best for her and that would be find her a new home where she'll do better- but I'm not just going to do it without having even tried.


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## Adriwise_Gamgee (Nov 30, 2005)

Lucky's mom said:


> Much of your problem will be over if the rest of your family bonds with Abraxas as you have.


Well, she gets along very well with almost everyone and almost everyone in here likes her - except for mom, who thinks she's way too wild! But she gets a laugh out of her every once in a while.

So I'm sure if I'm able to successfully train her... mom's gonna like her all the same. (Besides, deep inside I know mom loves her for being such a silly dog and who can resist a GR anyways?)


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## timberwolfe (Apr 15, 2005)

Adriwise, I think it is great you are trying now to help Abraxas. Yes her past wasn't the best and mistakes were made, but the fact that you are trying now is great.

As far as the crate, I have no experience. We have a crate but used it for time outs as a pup and not for crate training. I have no idea how easily a 1 year old will take to it.

What does she know? I'm not sure what you mean by "Inverse Reaction", but does she know Sit or Stay at all or are you starting basically from square one? One thing though, any training is good training. Even if your brother tries to untrain her, if you at least are consistant, then Abraxas should always listen to you even if she doesn't for anyone else. Be her Alpha! Then when she is inside, if you tell her to go lie down, she will. One command we learned was "Go Mat". You can call it what you want, but basically if we were done playing or if Clancy was being a pain in the but, we would tell him "Go Mat" which meant he was to go lie down on his mat where he likes to lay during the day.

Anyway, where are you with training? What are you trying to teach her right now and do you have any questions on how to accomplish this?


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## Adriwise_Gamgee (Nov 30, 2005)

Timber, an "inverse reaction" would be my brother interfering with the training and undoing everything I had accomplished during a certain period of time.

As far as where does Abraxas stands with her training... she knows sit, and she knows she has to sit if she wants a treat or the ball thrown at her. She knows when I say "ball" I want her to find it so we can play - but I guess that comes as natural since she's so ready to play all the time.

I was hoping the next thing after perfecting her "sit" is teaching her to calm down and lay still - because dealing with a jumpy and excited gr who tries to nibble on your face is not something everyone's willing to do, especially a 4 years old that can get knocked off so easily.

I just came in from the backyard where I was picking some stuff up and boy she wanted to play rough. I also found out she's very opinionated and barks and bites back at a "NO!", but I eventually got her calmed by making her lay down on her side, and just petting her.

Evertime she tried to get up or bite I pushed her back down and that got her behaving. After that I let her sit and she was letting me pet her and hug her and kiss her (Dang, I wish I had my camera then! I would've been able to take a pretty picture! lol) and all along I was telling her "pretty" ("bonita" in spanish...) so that she knows "pretty" gets her lots of love and attention.

Of course I had to come back in, but I'm getting ready for round two... :bowl:  

What do you think should I work on the most right now? Do you think "pretty" and then petting her would work?


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## timberwolfe (Apr 15, 2005)

One of the problems you might be experiencing is that she knows the commands, but she chooses when to listen. This can be caused by you giving a command that you can't enforce if she chooses to ignore it.

A few things you could try. 

One is never give a command you can't enforce. An example would be telling her to come when she is out of reach, she hears you, thinks about it and decides not to come. What are you going to do? She has just learned that she doesn't need to listen all the time.

Another thing you should do is use treats as a reward, not a bribe. Treats should be hidden in your pocket and should be given out sporadically. Every second or third time she complies to a command she gets a treat, and eventually phased out entirely as she become reliable with the command. Don't be predictable.

Also, as mentioned several times in this forum, I used the phylosophy Nothing in Life is Free. Basically, before getting her food, andy treat, even a walk she must do something. Before her food is served you ask for a sit. Before going for a walk you ask for a sit and then put on the leash. 

As far as what train once you have a reliable sit, work on sit stay. Get her to sit and then back up one or two steps. If she doesn't move then say "Good Girl STAY". The reason for waiting is that you don't want to give a command that you don't know if she will obey. So if you back away 1 or 2 steps and she gets up, she hasn't done anything wrong yet. If she stays sitting, then you introduce the command and give a treat. Continue this and increase distance and time. Very quickly she should be able to stay in the sit for 1 minute or 2.

Then you can work on Down. Get her to sit. With treat closed in hand, bring it to her nose so she smells it. Then lower your hand to the ground and her nose should follow which will put her into the down position. The moment she is fully down give the command "Down". Work on that until she responds to the command, and then introduce down stay, and then increase distance.

Once you have these commands it is a lot easier to control your dog.

I would be happy to talk more but I have to go.


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## Adriwise_Gamgee (Nov 30, 2005)

Thanks Timber and everyone for all your useful advise... I'm trying to devise a schedule that will help me spend more time with Abraxas. 

I might not post in the next couple of days due to some personal matters I need to look after but feel free to drop me a msg.

I'll keep you posted on what's going on with Abraxas!


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

I think one of the most important things we can do for our dogs is socialization, this one sounds like it missed out on a lot at a very critical time.

The back yards are great for exercise, but they don't socialize them to people, children and other dogs. It sounds like your really trying to give back something to this golden, she deserves it!!! Give her all you can, and then some.

Keep us posted, hope all is going well.


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## chessergang (Jan 21, 2008)

I guess my first thought is how is she going to learn how to behave inside if she never gets to be inside? Talk to your mom about this and see how she reacts. Of course, if she is unreliable she needs constant supervision while she is inside, and that is going to take time - but it will be worth it!
Do you use a crate for her? 
How about enrolling her in a dog training class? The trainer would probably have some good advice! newton is 6 mo. old and he started off very 'crazy" like that, but just snapped out of it one day and now is a GREAT dog! 
Just don't let it escalate to the point that you have to get rid of her! Call me before that happens and I'll come get her!  
You are at a crucial point in her life and the family has to decide to make it work. And that is going to take time . You can't do it by yourself. You've got to get your mom and brother on board too!


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