# Can an English cream golden still be AKC registered?



## Zeke1 (Nov 20, 2015)

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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Oh, this is wrong on so many levels.

AKC Registration has absolutely nothing to do with color.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

So wrong. 
Seems like it was written by someone with no AKC showing experience. 

This light gold Australian Import is a AKC Champion Pedigree: AmGCH/CanGCH Goldtreve Sydney Traveler
This Spanish import too Pedigree: AmGCH CanCH Scandal Lover De Zelkova CGC
Though not a finished champion it is hard to discount this bitch Pedigree: CanGCH, U-CH Ventess Sophia Of Goldensglen who won Winner Bitch and Best of Winners at the 2014 GRCA national specialty. 

It is not easy because yes the color is a disadvantage but light gold dogs of good quality can win in AKC it just takes time, money, effort and the right judges.


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## Zeke1 (Nov 20, 2015)

LJack said:


> So wrong.
> 
> Seems like it was written by someone with no AKC showing experience.
> 
> ...




We had a light color golden but is a "white" golden considered "English cream "?


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## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

The Labrador Retriever world seems to be having a much worse time with this English v. American thing. In that breed, you can actually begin to see a marked difference between the two (not just color wise but structurally) and unfortunately the preference is skewing towards the "English style" which is an overweight dog, even though there remains one breed standard, Labrador Retriever. 

This article was a fascinating read. When did Overweight Labs Become the New Normal? | SlimDoggy

From a health standpoint, I really hope we don't see the Golden Retriever breed shift to what is most definitely an overweight dog.


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## HiltonMagic (Dec 13, 2015)

GoldenDude said:


> The Labrador Retriever world seems to be having a much worse time with this English v. American thing. In that breed, you can actually begin to see a marked difference between the two (not just color wise but structurally) and unfortunately the preference is skewing towards the "English style" which is an overweight dog, even though there remains one breed standard, Labrador Retriever.
> 
> This article was a fascinating read. When did Overweight Labs Become the New Normal? | SlimDoggy
> 
> From a health standpoint, I really hope we don't see the Golden Retriever breed shift to what is most definitely an overweight dog.


I have a coworker that talks about this (English vs. American labs) all the time. The really good field trial dogs (which you could strongly argue is the point of a 'lab') has absolutely zero chance of doing well in the conformation ring, as they have to be fit and athletic, which does not show well. Why would judges do this to the breed?

I get that there are some conformation Goldens that wouldn't necessarily make great hunters, but physically, it would be hard to tell. 

(Or is that changing in the Golden world, with so many of the darker colored goldens tending to be hunt/field trial dogs???)


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

The OP's question is "_Can an English cream golden still be AKC registered?_*"

*It's my understanding that in the normal course AKC registration is available for all puppies from a litter where the sire and dam are AKC registered, as long as the breeder and owner complete the necessary paperwork. It has nothing to do with whether the puppies can or will conform to the AKC recognized breed standard (including the description of coat color) and does not require that the parents be titled in conformation or any other venue. Perhaps someone with an imported dog can give information on if and how a Golden imported into the US could obtain AKC registration.

Despite all the talk in recent years of "English Cream", I've never seen a clear definition of what would make a dog an English Cream . . . English dogs in close proximity in the pedigree, European dogs, very light color, how light, structural differences??? It does seem to be a quite successful marketing term.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

If a dog is not bred for the show ring, it would be really tough to get anywhere in the show ring. Coloring is meaningless compared to type/style. When your breeding goes astray or is based on personal preferences as opposed to what is correct for the breed... you slide further and further from being competitive in the show ring. That's regardless of what you breed.

Just having an American style golden who has CH titles not too far behind him doesn't mean you have a show dog who will win handily in the show ring. 

Heck, there's a lot of really nice dogs out there who get beat every show day... ending up placed behind people who struggle to get wins out there.  Some of that is on the handler, esp if owner handler. But the rest is kinda about the dogs faults or habits which mess things up. 

Breeder judges, for example... are the nicest judges to show a golden to. They are forgiving of some other things (grooming, trained stacks, stuff like that) and more likely to notice really nice dogs in the ring. BUT. They are also more likely to zero in on some things that they will not forgive. So tails carried too high, dogs wide in front, feet kicking up in back, light pigment, dropped incisors, so on... these things are noticed and kinda held against your dog compared to the others in the ring. 

There's a dog I know of who has done VERY WELL as the first show dog for his owner handler. Gorgeous dog. Big beautiful head. Beautiful coat. Nice balance. But the dog is wide in front when he moves. This is something that is held against him in the ring and why some breeder judges dump the dog whereas other judges might be zeroing in more on head and coat and not notice other things.

Could go on and on, but bottom line... assuming dogs are dumped on color alone is all wrong. There's a whole lot more to a dog than just coloring.

And to answer your question - AKC registration is not a testament of quality. Any funky looking dog can be registered if the parents were registered. I'm chuckling because when I was a kid, it was believed that as long as a dog had papers - he could be a show dog. Technically, it was true because this was before the limited registration thing. But.


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## Audog (Mar 17, 2017)

Having had Goldens my entire life, ranging from the darkest red end of the spectrum, to my current "English Cream" colored boy, ALLhave been AKC registered. I, personally, am partial to lighter coats on my Goldens, but didn't search out an "English Cream", he sort of found me while visiting a breeder, just to see pups, and get a GR puppy "fix". He had no problems getting registered, is listed as light golden, but he is almost white. However his ears are more GR. colored, and he is only 5 Months old, so will darken up as he ages.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

There is just nothing accurate about what's written on the screen capture.
There is no:
English Cream Golden
English Golden
American Golden
Red Field Golden
etc etc etc

THEY ARE ALL GOLDEN RETRIEVERS. Period. You will never find them registered as anything else.
The COLOR of the dog doesn't make them "ENGLISH." If they were BORN IN ENGLAND --> THEY ARE ENGLISH
If they weren't born in England, then what you've got is a light colored GOLDEN RETRIEVER
ANY shade of gold is acceptable. And in fact, it is 100% IMPOSSIBLE to breed two GOLDEN RETRIEVERS and get anything but a GOLD dog

AKC doesn't care one iota what shade of gold your golden retriever is. If the dog's parents were AKC registered, then the dog can be AKC registered. 

And if you're paying $1300-$1500 for a well bred Golden Retriever, you've either found a goldmine or the breeder is not as good as you think.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

My dog is AKC registered. Her dad is what people would say is a English cream. 

I agree the lab world is also having this problem. Chloes has a lab friend she plays with on her nightly walk at the park. He always says he is a English golden. He gets lots of exercise and is still overweight. I don't know what kind of breeder they got him from. But he defintly looks a little different then the normal lab. The people we bought property have what he calls a rare white lab. Lol. I am like no you just have a lab.


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## Goldenboy28 (Sep 25, 2016)

GoldenDude said:


> The Labrador Retriever world seems to be having a much worse time with this English v. American thing. In that breed, you can actually begin to see a marked difference between the two (not just color wise but structurally) and unfortunately the preference is skewing towards the "English style" which is an overweight dog, even though there remains one breed standard, Labrador Retriever.
> 
> This article was a fascinating read. When did Overweight Labs Become the New Normal? | SlimDoggy
> 
> From a health standpoint, I really hope we don't see the Golden Retriever breed shift to what is most definitely an overweight dog.



Not sure how you can say the "English style" Labs are just overweight Labs. Think about it just like the Golden Retriever, Labs originate from the UK - specifically Labs in England and Goldens Scotland to retrieve waterfowl. Both from the early 1900s I believe. Certainly as far as gun dogs are concerned they were bread for the needs of gamekeepers and gentlemen on shoots in the UK.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Goldenboy28 said:


> Not sure how you can say the "English style" Labs are just overweight Labs. Think about it just like the Golden Retriever, Labs originate from the UK -


Labs are not from the U.K. They are a Canadian breed.


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## Figtoria (Apr 19, 2016)

Good summary of the difference between them:

https://www.labradortraininghq.com/...rence-between-american-and-english-labradors/


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

LJack said:


> Labs are not from the U.K. They are a Canadian breed.


Didn't the Labrador breed originate from Newfoundland? All the history I've ever read said that.


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## Goldenboy28 (Sep 25, 2016)

LJack said:


> Labs are not from the U.K. They are a Canadian breed.



It appears you are right and I was mistaken. I thought I recalled reading a book on gun dogs in which I must have confused the Labrador with another.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

mylissyk said:


> Didn't the Labrador breed originate from Newfoundland? All the history I've ever read said that.


Yes, you are correct. I think we are saying the same thing two different ways. Newfoundland and Labrador the most easterly province of Canada.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Goldenboy28 said:


> It appears you are right and I was mistaken. I thought I recalled reading a book on gun dogs in which I must have confused the Labrador with another.


Many great breeds came out of the U.K. and the Lab was imported there as well. It is easy loose track.


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## Brenda1738 (Mar 25, 2018)

The above posted is only a snippet. The actual article on white/English cream goldens goes on to explain why white goldens cannot technically be registered. The American Kennel Club registration requires that you register your golden only under the following 3 registration codes ": dark golden (registration code 080), golden (registration code 093) and light golden (registration code 119).There is not a white registration code for the simply fact that white is not in the standard. So those who register had to register as light golden which is inaccurate. 

I am shopping for a "white" because on a recent trip to Europe fell in love with some lovely specimens. But I want to learn as much as I can before committing to one. Anybody know some reputable breeders here?


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

If you want an English dog, go to England and get one. (If they'll sell you one.)

The vast majority of "English Cream" breeders on this side of the pond are something to be avoided.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Brenda1738 said:


> The above posted is only a snippet. The actual article on white/English cream goldens goes on to explain why white goldens cannot technically be registered. The American Kennel Club registration requires that you register your golden only under the following 3 registration codes ": dark golden (registration code 080), golden (registration code 093) and light golden (registration code 119).There is not a white registration code for the simply fact that white is not in the standard. So those who register had to register as light golden which is inaccurate.
> 
> I am shopping for a "white" because on a recent trip to Europe fell in love with some lovely specimens. But I want to learn as much as I can before committing to one. Anybody know some reputable breeders here?


Before you look into getting a golden retriever, you need to read up on the breed standards. That's your first step to making sure you are not taken for a ride by puppy mills.

The attached "snippet" is from the Kennel Club (UK)'s breed standard for golden retrievers.

The AKC breed standard is:

Color: Rich, lustrous golden of various shades. Feathering may be lighter than rest of coat. With the exception of graying or whitening of face or body due to age, any white marking, other than a few white hairs on the chest, should be penalized according to its extent. Allowable light shadings are not to be confused with white markings. Predominant body color which is either
extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable. Some latitude should be given to the light puppy whose coloring shows promise of deepening with maturity. Any noticeable area of black or other off-color hair is a serious fault.

To answer your apparent question, golden retrievers are registerable when they have serious faults. Super pale coloring or resembling a completely different breed, if non-contested (people do not demand a DNA test), are simply faults.

The AKC golden breed standard makes a huge deal about white markings - but these are what they are. These dogs are registered and bred and they might be top dogs in the breed in a couple areas (field or agility). They simply cannot be shown because they have really bad faults. 

Likewise goldens with black marks - serious fault, but it happens. These dogs are not "unregisterable" because of the off coloring. 

If you purchase a very light golden retriever, you simply register the dog as "light golden".... or odds are, your breeder will check that box for you. With all the things that are filled in on the registration paperwork, coloring does not matter as much as parents' names + their AKC numbers.

That's all.

Some people get worked up into a tizzy over coloring with these dogs - and coloring doesn't matter at all in the bigger scheme of things. You can get a light dog whose body is a big ridiculous mess because of bad breeding. You yourself might not realize how badly structured your dog is, but a lot of people who fixate on those bits and pieces of the breed standard and see what should be there... are going to know the difference just at a glance. 

I saw a "English cream" from what I think came from a certain breeder who is very nice and does have some nice dogs.... this was last fall at a dog show. The dog had a saggy back and signs of hip dysplasia + just HORRID spay coat + tail was literally dragging on the floor. <= If this dog was a 13 year old, I probably would not have thought anything, but this was a 1-2 year old dog. It made me feel sad, because if you end up with stuff like that from good breeders, it's pretty awful prospect trying to find a breeder that produce solid quality every time. If you are spending an INSANE amount of money on a puppy, you should be getting INSANELY HIGH QUALITY too!


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## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

I hope this helps you! 


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

The diagram shown above about the differences between "English" and AKC goldens is so INCORRECT that I don't even know where to begin, so let's start with the terminology used in the breed standards. They are both describing roughly the same dog, NOT the two images displayed. For the cancer rates, both "studies" were not studies at all, but surveys that used anecdotal information. No science, no controls, no means to determine whether or not a supposed diagnosis was correct or not.

Please STOP repeating this drivel. Repeating it doesn't make it any truer.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

^^^^ The above is typical of dishonest advertising which is posted by people who are trying to sell anything to gullible buyers. It has also been remarked on repeatedly on this forum that IS nonsense. If you've been a member for any amount of time, you've surely seen these graphs posted here by people who think they are shiny. 

One breeder went so far as to post actual pictures of dogs who they were trying to use as illustrative of "all" American goldens. The worst part was the illustration completely failed because their dogs who they posted proudly as having "level" backs, actually had sloped back in the pictures posted. Also the "American line" (think byb) that they were bashing on probably had a better back than their dog if he were standing on level ground and didn't have the picture tilted. I have no idea what they were thinking. But probably they just assumed their puppy buyers know as much about structure as they do and are just looking for white dogs (which case they should buy a different breed like a samoyed or eskie or a kuvasz). 

Bottom line - if you are interested in learning more about the breed, read the actual breed standards for AKC and Kennel Club. Breed standards, especially if they are very specific with heights and weights, among else, protect the breed from too much variance from a very set look for the breed. This is coloring, structure, size, shape, expression, movement, etc... 

The AKC has a very detailed breed standard that is very easy to read. However if you need illustrations and pictures, there is also an illustrated version of the breed standard. 

Bottom line on the silly graphs published by silly breeders. It about as honest and decent as somebody like me posting something like that, but proving that European line goldens are shaped like pot belly pigs. It would be wrong of me to do so, and insulting and based on individuals vs all the goldens over there.


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## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

I am really sorry for sharing false info! I saw that on Facebook at a Golden Retriever group and thought I would share ! 


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Brenda1738 said:


> The above posted is only a snippet. The actual article on white/English cream goldens goes on to explain why white goldens cannot technically be registered. The American Kennel Club registration requires that you register your golden only under the following 3 registration codes ": dark golden (registration code 080), golden (registration code 093) and light golden (registration code 119).There is not a white registration code for the simply fact that white is not in the standard. So those who register had to register as light golden which is inaccurate.


That is because it is genetically impossible to get a WHITE golden retriever. Let me repeat : it is impossible to get a WHITE golden retriever.EVERY one of the breed is recessive at the E locus "ee" meaning they are genetically GOLD. Let me repeat : it is impossible to get a WHITE golden retriever. If you see one you think is white, it is just very light golden. Hence, you can register it as "light golden." Let me repeat : it is impossible to get a WHITE golden retriever.


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Brenda1738 said:
> 
> 
> > The above posted is only a snippet. The actual article on white/English cream goldens goes on to explain why white goldens cannot technically be registered. The American Kennel Club registration requires that you register your golden only under the following 3 registration codes ": dark golden (registration code 080), golden (registration code 093) and light golden (registration code 119).There is not a white registration code for the simply fact that white is not in the standard. So those who register had to register as light golden which is inaccurate.
> ...


Yes, what she said! No golden is white. Some may appear that way at a glance in bright sunshine, but they all have some degree of gold/yellow shading. And the genotype is always gold if it’s a purebred golden retriever, no matter if they come from England, Holland (like my dogs), the U.S., or the moon. A Golden is a Golden is a Golden. Whether it’s very light cream or very dark red, it may be harder to get points in the show ring, but it is not a disqualifying fault. And judges and the general public should all be more educated on that fact.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Curious.....everyone is talking about white markings. What about gold markings? If you look closely between his eyes, he has a splash of darker gold. Also has a little bit on the top of his head. Might be hard to see the marks. His parents are both medium gold....he is blond. I have no problem with the “markings”


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

Its not uncommon for goldens to have some variability in fur tone. I've seen a golden with a sort of speckled gold leg through, with darker patches of gold. I don't show though, so I'm not sure if it affects how dogs are seen in the ring. 

Also, I have an "English cream" golden retriever. She's definitely not white, and her fur looks very very light. Until she stands next to a dog that is actually white, or she's frolicking in the snow. Then she starts to look more off-white, sort of like polar bears do. Very light goldens have become rather trendy in recent years, and there are a lot of irresponsible breeders of "English Cream" goldens out there, so buyer beware. If you want one, you really want to do your homework to find a reputable breeder (and who breeds for temperament, conformation, has all clearances), and you may have to travel further and wait longer. 

Personally, I think you get a Golden because of their amazing temperament, intelligence, and affection. And yes, because they are gorgeous. And most importantly, you don't mind being covered in dog hair.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Abeille said:


> Curious.....everyone is talking about white markings. What about gold markings? If you look closely between his eyes, he has a splash of darker gold. Also has a little bit on the top of his head. Might be hard to see the marks. His parents are both medium gold....he is blond. I have no problem with the “markings”


That's pretty normal. 

He's very cute<:


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## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

. Vika is an English cream but still has some gold markings!


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Yes, there are no white Golden Retrievers. It is genetically impossible unless you are dealing with an unscrupulous person that has mix breed in a a white breed. But, then it would not be a Golden. 

In other countries the color is called cream. Here in the US it is light gold. Which honestly to me makes more sense. They are Golden Retrievers and the shades all fall on the gold spectrum from light to dark. Here in the Us we have rampant greeder breeders using the marketing term “English Cream” to mislead buyers. First these dogs are light gold. Second, it is very uncommon for them to be from England or the UK. Most breeders in the UK will not sell the the US any more because the unethical breeding done by these “color” breeders. In fact it is hard to get any reputable breeder in Western Europe to export a dog to the US. Most of these dogs in the US are coming from the old Soviet Block and Baltic States. There are commercial kennels there that have targeted the rabid color market in the US. Some of which are what some would refer to as mills. 

The photo below shows a lovely light bitch who is American bred. Light is available in some American lines just as dark is available in some European lines. Personally I care more about health but you have to decide what is important to you.


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## Vika the Golden ! (Jun 18, 2017)

LJack said:


> Yes, there are no white Golden Retrievers. It is genetically impossible unless you are dealing with an unscrupulous person that has mix breed in a a white breed. But, then it would not be a Golden.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh I didn’t know that this was the case in the US ! My dog came from the UK. I must say though that the majority of American Goldens are a bit darker colored. In Europe cream and light colored Goldens are more common. I think what’s important is the temperament and the dog’s health and not the color when choosing a dog. If that’s the case in the US I would try and find a reputable UK breeder that exports puppies!


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Megora said:


> That's pretty normal.
> 
> He's very cute<:


I wondered since I haven’t personally seen it. 

Thank you! He decided to smile at me to get a toy back in that picture. He will be getting some conformation ring time in UKC this year.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Vika the Golden ! said:


> Oh I didn’t know that this was the case in the US ! My dog came from the UK. I must say though that the majority of American Goldens are a bit darker colored. In Europe cream and light colored Goldens are more common.


That is an accurate assessment that the US skews darker and Europe skews lighter. This difference is coming through popular sires. In the US several descendants of Cragmont’s Peter, notably Misty Morn’s Sunset were the popular sires due to their quality and production records. Misty Morn's Sunset

In Europe popular sires came down from Camrose Tallyrand of Anbria, with Camrose Cabus Christopher being the most notable. https://en.working-dog.com/dogs-details/2094098/Camrose-Cabus-Christopher

If you look at the pictures, you will see why Europe skewed lighter and the US darker. It was about breeders trying to select the best dogs regardless of color. In the US that meant the darker Cragmont’s Peter relatives and Europe the much lighter Camrose Tallyrand of Anbria relatives. However, with in each group you will find dogs in the full range of gold.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> That is because it is genetically impossible to get a WHITE golden retriever. Let me repeat : it is impossible to get a WHITE golden retriever.EVERY one of the breed is recessive at the E locus "ee" meaning they are genetically GOLD. Let me repeat : it is impossible to get a WHITE golden retriever. If you see one you think is white, it is just very light golden. Hence, you can register it as "light golden." Let me repeat : it is impossible to get a WHITE golden retriever.


Could you say that again? I'm not sure I understand lol...


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