# for breeders only, who you would refuse to sell to



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Ok, flame retardant suit is in place, here goes:
For those of you who have ever bred and sold goldens, would you sell a golden to someone that you knew intended to breed him or her to produce designer puppies such as golden doodles?


----------



## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Not in this lifetime. We've been approached on that in the past. We said NO, very firmly.


----------



## DUSTYRD2 (Feb 28, 2007)

Emphatically NO!!


----------



## 3SweetGoldens (Feb 28, 2007)

Absolutely NOT!


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

*NOT EVER!*
*Not for a million dollars.*
*Not for a trillion dollars.*
*Not for ANYthing.*​


----------



## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

I'm not a breeder, but if I was, there wouldn't be a chance in hell!


----------



## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

NOT IN A MILLION, BILLION, TRILLION YEARS. Read the front page of my website. Hope your not asking for you :crossfing




hotel4dogs said:


> Ok, flame retardant suit is in place, here goes:
> For those of you who have ever bred and sold goldens, would you sell a golden to someone that you knew intended to breed him or her to produce designer puppies such as golden doodles?


----------



## Merlins mom (Jun 20, 2007)

I might do it for a million, or possibly a trillion dollars.....

:--devil:

But since I'm not a breeder, no worries.....



Pointgold said:


> *NOT EVER!*
> *Not for a million dollars.*
> *Not for a trillion dollars.*
> *Not for ANYthing.*​


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

oh good lord no, not for me, not for anyone I know!! I hope no one else thinks that, yikes! I was actually headed in totally the opposite direction with this....
I wasn't going to say this until the poll had been up for a few days, but here's what my point was, now that you've horrified me by suggesting people might think it was me I was asking for!
My point was...
there's not ONE good, legitimate breeder, not ONE that will sell a GOOD QUALITY purebred dog to someone who intends to breed designer breeds! And you all answered me not knowing that was why I was asking. Everyone said strongly NO!
So that means that anyone who is breeding designer dogs is NOT starting with a quality golden retriever (or lab, or poodle). How can they expect to produce a quality dog, when they aren't even starting with quality parents????
I rest my case.
Sheeesh, I hope no one thinks I'd even think of breeding designer dogs. I'm not even qualified to breed goldens!!!!!



Ash said:


> NOT IN A MILLION, BILLION, TRILLION YEARS. Read the front page of my website. Hope your not asking for you :crossfing


----------



## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> My point was...
> there's not ONE good, legitimate breeder, not ONE that will sell a GOOD QUALITY purebred dog to someone who intends to breed designer breeds! And you all answered me not knowing that was why I was asking. Everyone said strongly NO!
> So that means that anyone who is breeding designer dogs is NOT starting with a quality golden retriever (or lab, or poodle). How can they expect to produce a quality dog, when they aren't even starting with quality parents????


That has long been my belief as well. I've yet to meet a nice poodle mix. They've universally been nasty tempered or so badly put together that their bodies fail before their mind has exercised...Plus I just don't think that they are even remotely good looking. I had a "breeder" in my class not too long ago. Her daughters ended up dragging her over to my dog's crates at which point she told them "see, THIS is the kind of dog we need in our program". There wasn't anything good I could have said at that moment - so it's a darn good thing that I was answering other questions from folks as the class was leaving...

BTW: My favorite is the woman in my area who has an intact golden x poodle - he's about 5 - nasty fellow - I can't see a single redeeming quality - failed his hips, sheds year-round, bad bite, funky angles, doesn't have any desire to please anyone - zip for work ethic. Anyway I heard recently she was really upset because none of the doodle breeders around here wanted to use him...So she was going to try to have him accidently get a golden or a poodle at the dog park. Unfortuneatly he is more likely to "get" them with his teeth than any other part...

Erica


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Absolutely NOT!


----------



## agoldenliferanch (Aug 1, 2008)

No way in H E double hockey sticks!


----------



## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> oh good lord no, not for me, not for anyone I know!! I hope no one else thinks that, yikes! I was actually headed in totally the opposite direction with this....
> I wasn't going to say this until the poll had been up for a few days, but here's what my point was, now that you've horrified me by suggesting people might think it was me I was asking for!


I didn't think so but I had to ask.


----------



## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

I should point out that since no mutt, mongrel or designer mutt (however you put it) is able to be registered in the AKC or CanKC, there are likely some of these disreputable folk that would lie to get a better quality dog and then breed it anyways on a limit registration.

The question is how enforceable is a contract in court if you feel the client has broken the contract and bred the dog.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> My point was...
> there's not ONE good, legitimate breeder, not ONE that will sell a GOOD QUALITY purebred dog to someone who intends to breed designer breeds!


Ahh...but what if you bought an excellent dog on the pretense of having it as a pet or for working or show...and you bred it to a poodle?

No need for AKC registration, since it's not a breed. And your breeder would have to sue for breach of contract, I guess, and that might be expensive.

I'm not a breeder, but I imagine it's darn hard to control what happens with your dogs after they're out the door.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

tintallie said:


> I should point out that since no mutt, mongrel or designer mutt (however you put it) is able to be registered in the AKC or CanKC, there are likely some of these disreputable folk that would lie to get a better quality dog and then breed it anyways on a limit registration.
> 
> The question is how enforceable is a contract in court if you feel the client has broken the contract and bred the dog.


Woah...weird to think that you and I were having the exact same train of thought at the exact same time. What am I thinking now?

You're right...ice cream.


----------



## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

I wouldn't buy a dog,from a golden breeder who,also,bred goldendoodle so i would expect good breeders to have that same rule,for their clients!.


----------



## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

Not a chance!

Nor would I sell one to anyone that intended to breed non-designer mixes or even unregistered purebreds.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> Ahh...but what if you bought an excellent dog on the pretense of having it as a pet or for working or show...and you bred it to a poodle?
> 
> No need for AKC registration, since it's not a breed. And your breeder would have to sue for breach of contract, I guess, and that might be expensive.
> 
> I'm not a breeder, but I imagine it's darn hard to control what happens with your dogs after they're out the door.


 
A breeder's worst nightmare. And why we have contracts (even as hard as they are to enforce ) and why we are so particular about those we sell puppies to. My wait list is long, and I doubt that someone looking to make a quick buck with a Doodle assembly line is going to wait for one of mine.


----------



## SunGold (Feb 27, 2007)

No way!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

tippykayak said:


> Woah...weird to think that you and I were having the exact same train of thought at the exact same time. What am I thinking now?
> 
> You're right...ice cream.


Alas, I don't think of ice cream...I'm lactose intolerant. However, DH on the other hand can eat a 4 litre (over one gallon) bucket in a sitting.


----------



## MyCodyBoy (Sep 27, 2008)

I am not a breeder. But I am thinking I want a Standard Poodle when Cody is older. He will be neutered by the time we get the next dog.
I found a really really great breeder of Standards and on their website they say they spay/neuter all their puppies before they send them home with their new families.
They learned that people were buying their dogs to breed them to make designer dogs.
I want one of their dogs but I don't want it altered before I get it  I am hoping that when we are ready for a pup they will make an exception if I can provide them with a big list of references.
But I also understand their reasoning. it is a shame it had to come down to them having to do that.


----------



## Starquest Goldens (Oct 26, 2008)

Never, ever !!! No way in a million years. In my contracts people have to sign a waiver that they can never breed to another breed of dog to make designer dogs. Golden can only bred to a golden, of course with alot of demands in the contract also. Not that I sell many for breeding purposes. 99 % get fixed.


----------



## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

OHHHHHHHHHHH those who voted "Yes"!!!!! Thanks goodness it's a private poll! Notice that those who voted "Yes" didn't make any comments?????????


----------



## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I said maybe, but I'd say most likely not. However, I'd be willing to donate a dog to CCI or a similar program that breeds service dogs. That's the only exception I can think of (and they often do cross breeds).


----------



## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Not in this lifetime or the next!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Gwen said:


> OHHHHHHHHHHH those who voted "Yes"!!!!! Thanks goodness it's a private poll! Notice that those who voted "Yes" didn't make any comments?????????


They must not be in the mood for public crucifixion. eepwall:


----------



## Clhoie (Dec 16, 2008)

im sorry but i HATE the word Designer when referring to dogs... 
ITS NOT A **** ITEM LIKE A PURSE. 
sorry.... =/ i just *reallllly hate* that word. i personally wouldn't buy anyone selling a "designer dog".


----------



## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

I think the people who voted "yes" or "maybe" are just looking for a reaction from other LOL and probably don't agree with Doodles seeing as they won't say who they are    JMO of course


----------



## trauty (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm not a breeder but just let me say THANK YOU to all of you who responded "NO!" to this poll. That whole concept of a "designer dog" just drives me crazy!!


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ash said:


> I think the people who voted "yes" or "maybe" are just looking for a reaction from other LOL and probably don't agree with Doodles seeing as they won't say who they are    JMO of course


Gee, ya think???


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

*OVER MY DEAD BODY!!!! :--policeman:*


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I said maybe, but I'd say most likely not. However, I'd be willing to donate a dog to CCI or a similar program that breeds service dogs. That's the only exception I can think of (and they often do cross breeds).


 
But that is *NOT *the question. It says "designer dog".


----------



## Kirby'sMom (Feb 26, 2007)

Absolutely not! I cringe every time I hear the words "designer dog" or any kind of "doodle"!!! They're MUTTS!! And then when Henry Winkler says the prez should get a Labradoodle as they're non-shedding, I really fume! It's part Lab, folks - they shed! Sorry, this thread brought the news story to mind!! :doh:


----------



## PJD001 (Jul 28, 2006)

I voted no!!!


----------



## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> A breeder's worst nightmare. And why we have contracts (even as hard as they are to enforce ) and why we are so particular about those we sell puppies to. My wait list is long, and I doubt that someone looking to make a quick buck with a Doodle assembly line is going to wait for one of mine.



I've always wondered how breeders enforce this. I didn't buy Taz, but my aunt did, on limited registration. But the little box on the AKC papers wasn't blacked out at all, just had a little check mark, so I COULD have fully registered Taz. Also, although Taz was spayed at 6 months, she could have had dozens of puppies by now and the breeder never would have known. I think the contract also stated that Taz had to be returned to them if my aunt and uncle no longer wanted her, which obviously also didn't happen, as she's lived with me for 2 years and my name is on her AKC reg., not my aunt and uncle. They did clearances and everything though, so I can't say they were BYB's.


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I'll give my take on contracts. 

First I think they only keep honest folks honest. They can be very hard to enforce in a court of law. Most puppy buyers stay in touch for the first year or so and then many start to just disappear. A breeder can contact them all they want but if they do not wish to return the communication there is not much a breeder can do. But if something pops up after 5 years or so these are the very same folks who try then to contact the breeder to notify them that they got a "defective pup". If this happens with someone who has allowed the continual involvelment of the breeder in their lives they seem to understand that things just haooen sometimes.

I believe that although a strong contract is a good thing the MOST important job a breeder has with regard to selling a pup is to know who you are selling a pup to. They need to check references, not just ask for them. If they have done this to the best of their ability, and believe mr it is VERY timme consuming, then about 95% of the time the contract is truly more for the buyers piece of mine than the breeder's.

Just my thought process on the subject.



Taz Monkey said:


> I've always wondered how breeders enforce this. I didn't buy Taz, but my aunt did, on limited registration. But the little box on the AKC papers wasn't blacked out at all, just had a little check mark, so I COULD have fully registered Taz. Also, although Taz was spayed at 6 months, she could have had dozens of puppies by now and the breeder never would have known. I think the contract also stated that Taz had to be returned to them if my aunt and uncle no longer wanted her, which obviously also didn't happen, as she's lived with me for 2 years and my name is on her AKC reg., not my aunt and uncle. They did clearances and everything though, so I can't say they were BYB's.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

True. I was just trying to think of ANY situation where I'd be okay with producing mixes on purpose. Service dogs and maybe a genuine attempt at a new breed (like, back in the day of the Silken Windhound's origins, I would have had no issue allowing one of my Whippets to be used in their breeding program, if such a situation had come up). Now, they have a closed stud book anyway, as far as I know. But they're not a designer dog. They're a breed in the making which is now established.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> I'll give my take on contracts.
> 
> First I think they only keep honest folks honest. They can be very hard to enforce in a court of law. Most puppy buyers stay in touch for the first year or so and then many start to just disappear. A breeder can contact them all they want but if they do not wish to return the communication there is not much a breeder can do. But if something pops up after 5 years or so these are the very same folks who try then to contact the breeder to notify them that they got a "defective pup". If this happens with someone who has allowed the continual involvelment of the breeder in their lives they seem to understand that things just haooen sometimes.
> 
> ...


And I agree 100%. Because of the long wait for my puppies, I get to know potential buyers. I do check references. Conversely, I expect, and appreciate, buyers who ask ME the difficult questions, and ask for references and insist on SEEING proof of clearances and other claims.


----------



## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

Well my neighbour wants an hypoallergenic dog and is thinking about a doodle.
I'm pushing her for a real breed like a poodle,a schaunzer,an airedale or any type of wirehair for that matter as they shed very little.
She is,now,looking into schaunzer!.


----------



## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

MurphyTeller said:


> That has long been my belief as well. I've yet to meet a nice poodle mix. They've universally been nasty tempered or so badly put together that their bodies fail before their mind has exercised...Plus I just don't think that they are even remotely good looking. I had a "breeder" in my class not too long ago. Her daughters ended up dragging her over to my dog's crates at which point she told them "see, THIS is the kind of dog we need in our program". There wasn't anything good I could have said at that moment - so it's a darn good thing that I was answering other questions from folks as the class was leaving...
> 
> BTW: My favorite is the woman in my area who has an intact golden x poodle - he's about 5 - nasty fellow - I can't see a single redeeming quality - failed his hips, sheds year-round, bad bite, funky angles, doesn't have any desire to please anyone - zip for work ethic. Anyway I heard recently she was really upset because none of the doodle breeders around here wanted to use him...So she was going to try to have him accidently get a golden or a poodle at the dog park. Unfortuneatly he is more likely to "get" them with his teeth than any other part...
> 
> Erica



I can't stand so called designer dogs, especially when they are mixed with our gorgeous goldens. They are just ripping off the public when those people could go to a shelter and get a nice mixed dog/mutt.

My parents had a poodle cocker mix from a shelter for 18 years. Pepsi was the sweetest loving pup and my sister grew up with her. She spent years cuddled on my mom's lap.

I'm not a small dog person but I had to respond and say this poodle mix was a sweetheart who was healthy till she died at 18 of old age.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> And I agree 100%. Because of the long wait for my puppies, I get to know potential buyers. I do check references. Conversely, I expect, and appreciate, buyers who ask ME the difficult questions, and ask for references and insist on SEEING proof of clearances and other claims.


Speaking from the other end, as a buyer, not a breeder, I only like breeders who want to put me through the wringer and bother me with a million questions and a million suggestions. I want a puppy who was bred by somebody who cares deeply, possibly to the point of insanity, and I want the puppy to be handled from birth to 8 weeks by somebody who obsessively socialized him and agonized over his healthcare. I don't want somebody who figures I'm probably OK because I have a good handshake.

I look at it this way: if a breeder is willing to give you a dog for some money and a cursory interview, that person doesn't care deeply enough about the breeding process for me to feel comfortable about the dog I'm getting. If the breeder spends two hours over two separate visits grilling me about my house, yard, feeding plans, lifestyle, training philosophy, etc., then I know the breeder cares deeply about her dogs. I want to have to _prove_ to a breeder that the dog will have the highest possible quality of life.

I feel even better when a breeder spends _another_ two hours talking to me about the benefits of raw diet, bee pollen, powdered kelp, etc. Do I feed those things? No. Do I agree 100% that they're a good idea? No. Do I want to buy a dog from somebody who's put that much time, love, and research into figuring out what's best for her dogs? Heck yes.

Comet's breeder misted up when we left, and I know it's because she thought of all those little guys as her own kids. I felt like _adopted_ that dog. That's one of the reasons I keep up my little website. I want her to be able to keep tabs on her boy.


----------



## JohnTIZ (Jan 9, 2009)

Thoughts from [NOT A BREEDER] Truthfully... I don't know of any breeders in my region that screen buyers definitively nor would I know how anyone could do such a thing (especially with an out-of-town buyer). Most require a questionairre and/or pre-sale interview at their home. But even then, anyone could show up pretending to be a nice young couple looking for a pet golden. A little reading up and one knows all the right answers to all the questions. "Yes, we have a gated yard," "Yes we have someone home all the time," "Yes, we will be taking puppy to obedience," Yada yada. It's kinda scary. I think about our first golden and how I could have taken her home and just crank out overpriced Doodles year round, and the breeder would have been none the wiser. I DIDN'T. But I could have. And I fear this happens more often than we would like to think. The only solution I can think of is to price puppies so darn high that only people who desperately want a golden would pay - driving away profiteers. Of course that would punish low income folk who can't afford a $2,000 dog but I don't know what else to think at the moment?? 

I don't know if it would be legally binding to "lease" a puppy to someone (option to repo) with language indicting the lease would become a "sale" only after veterinary proof of spay/neuter is provided. Or is that just plain crazy?

I do feel bad for those breeders who actually care about their puppies, and always worry about how they are being treated in their new homes. It must be hard seeing those puppies go and praying you made the right choice of buyers.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Tally's contract has a line that says for breeding a golden sold on limited registration, buyer will pay seller 6,000$ for each offense of unauthorized breeding. I'm not sure that would hold up in court, but it looks gosh darn scary on the page. There is zero doubt in my mind the breeder would do her best to enforce it with anyone who bred a doodle from one of her dogs- yikes , I would hate to be there when she found out! I purchased Tango on full registration with permission to breed her, but had her spayed when her conformation just wasnt right for responsible breeding. She ended up with ED, so that would have ruled her out too. Yes, it is disappointing, but I cannot imagine facing members of the golden community having bred a goldendoodle or a dog with health/conformation issues or facing myself in the mirror, more importantly.


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Hi John I will speak as a breeder and what I have done and seen in my limited experience.
Any pup that I sell to anyone I do not know in addition to my questionaire I do ask for references and vet references. And before I will agree to allow one of my pups to go to one of these homes there has to be one refence that we both know or one that someone I trust a great deal knows. However no friend of a friend of a friend type will work. Most people if they do not take proper care of their pets will never give you a vet reference. And most vets are willing to answer questions like "Do they bring the pet in for regular checkups?", "Do they keep the pet at a good weight?". If the answer to either of those questions is no I will probably decline to sell them a pup. Items like gated yard are easily verified by looking yourself or if not close enough nearby that is one of the things a refernece can verify for me. Someone being home is not a requirement but I do put the obedience class clause in. You are right that it is impossible to enforce but when a puppy person calls with a problem the first thing I ask is "What did your trainer say?". 
nd noow for the "profiteers". These low lifes will pay ANY price to get a puppy of "good" lines. They will make up their initaal investment in no time. Understand the of all the costs of breeding the initial price of the pup may be the most insignificant of all.
There are breeders who will "lease" bitches for breeding purposes but I have never really looked into doing it so am not positive how the contract works. And there are breeders who will sell a pup but the breeder still retains breeding rights for a set number of litters. 
And you are so right when you say "It must be hard seeing those puppies go and praying you made the right choice of buyers." I worry and think of this everyday about eavery pup I have put with a family.




JohnTIZ said:


> Thoughts from [NOT A BREEDER] Truthfully... I don't know of any breeders in my region that screen buyers definitively nor would I know how anyone could do such a thing (especially with an out-of-town buyer). Most require a questionairre and/or pre-sale interview at their home. But even then, anyone could show up pretending to be a nice young couple looking for a pet golden. A little reading up and one knows all the right answers to all the questions. "Yes, we have a gated yard," "Yes we have someone home all the time," "Yes, we will be taking puppy to obedience," Yada yada. It's kinda scary. I think about our first golden and how I could have taken her home and just crank out overpriced Doodles year round, and the breeder would have been none the wiser. I DIDN'T. But I could have. And I fear this happens more often than we would like to think. The only solution I can think of is to price puppies so darn high that only people who desperately want a golden would pay - driving away profiteers. Of course that would punish low income folk who can't afford a $2,000 dog but I don't know what else to think at the moment??
> 
> I don't know if it would be legally binding to "lease" a puppy to someone (option to repo) with language indicting the lease would become a "sale" only after veterinary proof of spay/neuter is provided. Or is that just plain crazy?
> 
> I do feel bad for those breeders who actually care about their puppies, and always worry about how they are being treated in their new homes. It must be hard seeing those puppies go and praying you made the right choice of buyers.


----------



## KatzNK9 (Feb 27, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> *NOT EVER!*
> *Not for a million dollars.*
> *Not for a trillion dollars.*
> *Not for ANYthing.*​


I couldn't say it any better.

I don't breed Goldens (nor do I intend to) but did breed show cats for 20+ years ... and the answer is the same. I've been asked & refused on a number of occasions.


----------



## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

I agree there are a ton of "Breeders" in Ont. that I would never buy a puppy from. You just have to look hard cause there are a few good ones. I know the price in your region as well and unless you are buying "English Cremes" most from the reputable breeders I know the pups are no where near $2000

Its scary how little control you have after you sell pups. Sometimes I wish there was a way to ensure myself 1 or 2 of the nicest puppies and thats it. LOL You can only hope that you got to know the puppy buyer and feel comfortable and put them on Non-breeding/Limited contracts. Thats it. 



JohnTIZ said:


> Thoughts from [NOT A BREEDER] Truthfully... I don't know of any breeders in my region that screen buyers definitively nor would I know how anyone could do such a thing (especially with an out-of-town buyer). Most require a questionairre and/or pre-sale interview at their home. But even then, anyone could show up pretending to be a nice young couple looking for a pet golden. A little reading up and one knows all the right answers to all the questions. "Yes, we have a gated yard," "Yes we have someone home all the time," "Yes, we will be taking puppy to obedience," Yada yada. It's kinda scary. I think about our first golden and how I could have taken her home and just crank out overpriced Doodles year round, and the breeder would have been none the wiser. I DIDN'T. But I could have. And I fear this happens more often than we would like to think. The only solution I can think of is to price puppies so darn high that only people who desperately want a golden would pay - driving away profiteers. Of course that would punish low income folk who can't afford a $2,000 dog but I don't know what else to think at the moment??
> 
> I don't know if it would be legally binding to "lease" a puppy to someone (option to repo) with language indicting the lease would become a "sale" only after veterinary proof of spay/neuter is provided. Or is that just plain crazy?
> 
> I do feel bad for those breeders who actually care about their puppies, and always worry about how they are being treated in their new homes. It must be hard seeing those puppies go and praying you made the right choice of buyers.


----------

