# Whelping Watch



## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

We're on whelping watch tonight. Our girl is 60 days today and her temp has spiked and now dropped. She has dug around in the yard a bit today (she's not a digger), and is looking restless. I have a feeling she may go into labor tonight as she seems to be exhibiting some pre-labor symptoms. This will be her first litter. I have no doubts that she'll be a great mom though. I hope her whelping goes as easily as her pregnancy has. Can't wait to come back and share pictures! Here she is today enjoying the sun, and sporting her "maternity cut"


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## toliva (Nov 24, 2011)

Wow, that's really exciting!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I hope everything goes well. Was this a planned breeding?


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## debra1704 (Feb 22, 2012)

Even with the "maternity cut" & the angle, I can tell that she has gorgeous fur- lovely color! Best wishes to the mama-to-be.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

What a lovely girl. Sending good thoughts for easy deliveries. Be sure to post pictures!


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Yes Pointgold, this was a planned breeding.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Debra, I love her color and fur.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

I would trim the pants a bit more.  They get really messy.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

What are you hoping to accomplish with this litter--conformation, field, agility, obedience...? I like to see the thoughts breeders put into pairing goldens.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

SheetsSM said:


> What are you hoping to accomplish with this litter--conformation, field, agility, obedience...? I like to see the thoughts breeders put into pairing goldens.


Were health clearances completed?


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Abby is trained as a service dog for our daughter, we are hoping to produce dogs that are capable/geared toward service/therapy/working dogs as well as improve in the size of the pups as abby is on the smaller side of the breed standard. Mother has had preliminary clearances. Dad has full clearances. Here is Abby with our daughter who has a progressive genetic disorder.

Oops, edited to add the photo:


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> I would trim the pants a bit more.  They get really messy.


I know we probably should, but I love all her butt fluff!


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Just a friendly suggestion after looking at mom's pedigree, CERF the litter before sending them off to their new homes.


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## GoldenMum (Mar 15, 2010)

I don't know nuttin bout birthin no babies!!!! Seriously, wishing you a smooth successful welp...please keep us posted!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> Abby is trained as a service dog for our daughter, we are hoping to produce dogs that are capable/geared toward service/therapy/working dogs as well as improve in the size of the pups as abby is on the smaller side of the breed standard. Mother has had preliminary clearances. Dad has full clearances.


Great photo, and a noble job, for sure. Your daughter is beautiful. What will she do while Abby is in the maternity ward?


Mom will be three in July. Why only prelims? And dad has only had hips and elbows, no cardiac or CERF. 

A question as to your health warranty - 
"* Seller guarantees that for a period of 2 years from the date of birth of puppy, the puppy will not have or develop hereditary heart defects, moderate to severe hip dysplasia and/or cataracts. Buyer must have the condition confirmed by the OFA at 18 months of age. No claim will be considered prior to 18 months of age or after 24 months of age. This guarantee is not-transferable." *

If you guarantee for 2 years, why must the condition be confirmed by the OFA at 18 mos of age, when clearances cannot be done until 24 months? That is a six month difference. Or, if a puppy is diagnosed with any of the above prior to 18 mos, and suffering from any of these, will nothing be done until the dog is 18 months old?


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## gdmeadows (Feb 8, 2012)

How exciting!! Good luck!


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

That is great news. Can't wait to see pictures.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> Great photo, and a noble job, for sure. Your daughter is beautiful. What will she do while Abby is in the maternity ward?
> 
> 
> Mom will be three in July. Why only prelims? And dad has only had hips and elbows, no cardiac or CERF.
> ...


Thank pointgold, I agree my daughter is beautiful.  She will be fine while Abby is on "maternity leave". At this point she does not rely fully on Abby, due to her condition her abilities come and go, and needs change. Right now she is doing really well and does not rely on Abby. We are hoping to keep a male from this litter (or female) depending on size and abilities to train as well, as my daughter is only getting bigger and we would eventually need/want a larger dog to assist her.

As for your other points, I appreciate your concern. Abby will be getting her full certifications after the puppies are weaned. You make a very good point about that line in the contract, I will definitely reword it. I was thinking most people do prelims around 18 months or so. Of course, if a dog is suffering from any genetic disorders we would rectify the situation. I will change the wording. 

Once again, thank you for you concern.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> Just a friendly suggestion after looking at mom's pedigree, CERF the litter before sending them off to their new homes.


Excellent suggestion, as there are known ophthalmological concerns there.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> Thank pointgold, I agree my daughter is beautiful.  She will be fine while Abby is on "maternity leave". At this point she does not rely fully on Abby, due to her condition her abilities come and go, and needs change. Right now she is doing really well and does not rely on Abby. We are hoping to keep a male from this litter (or female) depending on size and abilities to train as well, as my daughter is only getting bigger and we would eventually need/want a larger dog to assist her.
> 
> As for your other points, I appreciate your concern. Abby will be getting her full certifications after the puppies are weaned. You make a very good point about that line in the contract, I will definitely reword it. I was thinking most people do prelims around 18 months or so. Of course, if a dog is suffering from any genetic disorders we would rectify the situation. I will change the wording.
> 
> Once again, thank you for you concern.


 
Most people do prelims around 6-8 months, prior to spending a ton of money on showing them. CERF eye checks are done annually, and no longer considered to be simply for breeding stock, given the issue of Pigmentary Uveitis. There have been no CERFS done on the sire or dam, and this is a big concern. Swampcollie's suggestion that the litter be CERF exam'd prior to going into new homes is a very good one - the concern being prcd PRA and juvenile cataracts.

Good luck.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> Abby will be getting her full certifications after the puppies are weaned.


I truly hope that everything goes well for Abby, her delivery and, of course, her puppies.

That said, I will never understand the logic behind breeding two dogs that don't have _every single clearance_ that is available done *prior* to the breeding. Just doesn't make sense to me...at all. And it never will...:no: Suppose you find something wrong with Abby that could be passed down to her pups? But then it would be too late, right? 

I really hope the puppies are healthy _in every way_ so their new owners don't have to experience the heartache that I feel everyday for my Chance. Believe me...it's h*ll watching him in pain everyday, especially when it could have been avoided.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

It is an even larger concern breeding 2 dogs without full clearances when there is no solid history of ancestral health clearnces. I hope the puppies produced by this breeding are healthy.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I am a new dog owner, and I almost got "suckered" into buying a puppy with parents who had no clearances from a backyard breeder who advertised herself as a small family breeder. It made me angry that all the pups were sold when I later checked back on her website, probably to poor, unsuspecting people. She knew about clearances when I later asked, and she even said she wasn't being irresponsible because she was confident in the health of her dogs. She just wanted to make money. Confidence is not a guarantee. 

Anyway..It angers me.. I just hope that you can at least be upfront and educate your buyers on the lack of health clearances and why they are important. But, I know that won't be likely.

I really hope your puppies are healthy, for the sake of the buyers and the puppies.


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## janababy (Jan 2, 2012)

Wishing you and "new Mom" all the best.


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## GoldenMum (Mar 15, 2010)

Just checking back in for puppy news? Hope all is going well.


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## Deber (Aug 23, 2011)

Pointgold - I am sure glad you are back!!!!!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I am a new dog owner, and I almost got "suckered" into buying a puppy with parents who had no clearances from a backyard breeder who advertised herself as a small family breeder. It made me angry that all the pups were sold when I later checked back on her website, probably to poor, unsuspecting people. She knew about clearances when I later asked, and she even said she wasn't being irresponsible because she was confident in the health of her dogs. She just wanted to make money. Confidence is not a guarantee.
> 
> Anyway..It angers me.. I just hope that you can at least be upfront and educate your buyers on the lack of health clearances and why they are important. But, I know that won't be likely.
> 
> I really hope your puppies are healthy, for the sake of the buyers and the puppies.


 
And, as was pointed out in a discussion I was having with a friend, it would seem that clearances would be _supremely _important to someone producing service dogs.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

No puppies yet. Temp dropped to 89.9 last night, but is back to 99.5 this morning. We expect them anytime though.


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## GoldenMum (Mar 15, 2010)

All paws crossed here....good luck!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Good luck! Can't wait to see pictures! How exciting! I see you are in Eastvale, I am down the street in Chino. Are all they puppies called for? Or are they going to service training fosters?


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Your dog is quite pretty; and your daughter very sweet and adorable.

I hope all goes well with the whelping and the new litter. Frankly, I think it will be very generous of you to share photos and information considering the tone of a number of these posts.


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## 4Goldens' (Apr 3, 2012)

Good Luck, Most pups are born through the night. I have witnessed 6 litters and it's usually a piece of cake. Goldens are great mothers!


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

MyBentley said:


> Your dog is quite pretty...


Well there ya' go...your dog is quite pretty. What a fantastic reason to breed. Sorry, I didn't take into account that health can be based on "pretty". My bad...


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> We're on whelping watch tonight. Our girl is 60 days today and her temp has spiked and now dropped. She has dug around in the yard a bit today (she's not a digger), and is looking restless. I have a feeling she may go into labor tonight as she seems to be exhibiting some pre-labor symptoms. This will be her first litter. I have no doubts that she'll be a great mom though. I hope her whelping goes as easily as her pregnancy has. Can't wait to come back and share pictures! Here she is today enjoying the sun, and sporting her "maternity cut"


Please ignore some of the snarky comments and come back and let us know how it went. A few of my friends have fostered service labs that were bred of the short version. A couple passed and a couple failed. One pup was just way too socialble lol! Such a wonderful cause.


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## Wagners Mom2 (Mar 20, 2012)

Best of luck to your girl--and her babies. 

Your daughter is adorable and I'm so glad she is able to have the help/companionship of a wonderful golden.


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## AmyG (Jan 21, 2012)

Good luck with the whelping. I hope all goes smoothly for your girl (and you of course!) can't wait to see some pictures of the pups


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Please ignore some of the snarky comments and come back and let us know how it went. A few of my friends have fostered service labs that were bred of the short version. A couple passed and a couple failed. One pup was just way too socialble lol! Such a wonderful cause.


I don't think that the tone has been snarky. :no: Valid questions and concerns raised and asked, politely. Just facts, and when it comes to health clearances, I would think that anyone professing to love the breed would understand those concerns. This litter is advertised on several of the Puppy4Sale sites, shipping available. Nothing referrencing service dogs on any of them.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> I don't think that the tone has been snarky. :no: Valid questions and concerns raised and asked, politely. Just facts, and when it comes to health clearances, I would think that anyone professing to love the breed would understand those concerns. This litter is advertised on several of the Puppy4Sale sites, shipping available. Nothing referrencing service dogs on any of them.


I saw snarky. She never said because her dog was beautiful the reason for breeding as one poster mentioned.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I saw snarky. She never said because her dog was beautiful the reason for breeding as one poster mentioned.


I just read that, and I understand the frustration, particularly given that the poster has a beautiful dog, who suffers from preventable health issues.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Yes, it was kind of snarky and yes it is _totally_ out of frustration. Until you live with a dog that has a debilitating condition that is preventable through health testing breeding dogs, you can't possibly know how these threads make me feel. I have to look into Chance's eyes everytime he comes up to me lifting his leg for me to massage it because it hurts. He knows it will feel better, if only for that moment. 

He can't do everything he wants, although I can tell he wants to. It's absolutely heartbreaking. Plus the meds he takes to keep his pain somewhat manageable will probably shorten his life, not to mention the blood draws every three months to make sure his liver is still functioning properly. So yeah, it was snarky. Too bad... 

I believe, as an extremely popular board, that many, many people lurk on to get information on our breed, members should make it a point to only support breeders that improve the breed. And that means _all health clearances_ on the dogs they breed. Period. 

I just don't understand how people can "ooooh and ahhhh" about litters that are poorly planned and obviously lack certification on the parents. Our breed deserves better!!! Prospective owners deserve better!!! People need to be involved in weeding out those that breed without looking at the big picture not encouraging them.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> Yes, it was kind of snarky and yes it is _totally_ out of frustration. Until you live with a dog that has a debilitating condition that is preventable through health testing breeding dogs, you can't possibly know how these threads make me feel. I have to look into Chance's eyes everytime he comes up to me lifting his leg for me to massage it because it hurts. He knows it will feel better, if only for that moment.
> 
> He can't do everything he wants, although I can tell he wants to. It's absolutely heartbreaking. Plus the meds he takes to keep his pain somewhat manageable will probably shorten his life, not to mention the blood draws every three months to make sure his liver is still functioning properly. So yeah, it was snarky. Too bad...
> 
> ...


I feel your frustration, however my first boy came from a reputable breeder with all clearances only to suffer medical problems down the road. So I know the frustration about having a sick dog.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I feel your frustration, however my first boy came from a reputable breeder with all clearances only to suffer medical problems down the road. So I know the frustration about having a sick dog.


 
Yes. It happens. But it is also a fact that breeding only cleared animals, and particularly those whose ancestors were also cleared, vastly decreases the possiblity of hereditary diseases being produced. So, to knowingly and purposely breed uncleared animals, and worse - claim that they are cleared - is _beyond _simplyfrustrating.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> Yes. It happens.


Yes sadly it does.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Yes sadly it does.


Very sadly, and I'm sorry for those dogs and owners who suffer. That said, though, why take an even greater chance of it happening by _not _doing clearances?


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

kwhit said:


> I believe, as an extremely popular board, that many, many people lurk on to get information on our breed, members should make it a point to only support breeders that improve the breed. And that means _all health clearances_ on the dogs they breed. Period.
> 
> I just don't understand how people can "ooooh and ahhhh" about litters that are poorly planned and obviously lack certification on the parents. Our breed deserves better!!! Prospective owners deserve better!!! People need to be involved in weeding out those that breed without looking at the big picture not encouraging them.


I wholeheartedly agree with this and I hope everyone reads this. I feel as if these breeders prey on unsuspecting buyers who unfortunately don't know any better. I feel sorry for them and the reason why it make me angry is because I was almost one of them. And what about the unhealthy puppies and what they have to go through??


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with this and I hope everyone reads this. I feel as if these breeders prey on unsuspecting buyers who unfortunately don't know any better. I feel sorry for them and the reason why it make me angry is because I was almost one of them. And what about the unhealthy puppies and what they have to go through??


Let's be fair here. There is no way of knowing if you would have picked one of those puppies it would have been unhealthy. And no I am not advising people to go with puppies without clearances.....so you can cool your heels.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Let's be fair here. There is no way of knowing if you would have picked one of those puppies it would have been unhealthy. And no I am not advising people to go with puppies without clearances.....so you can cool your heels.


It doesn't matter if I would have picked an unhealthy puppy or not. The end result is me supporting an unethical/irresponsible breeder and encouraging her to breed again.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Let's be fair here. There is no way of knowing if you would have picked one of those puppies it would have been unhealthy. And no I am not advising people to go with puppies without clearances.....so you can cool your heels.


The point is that there is a greatly increased chance of puppies out of uncleared parents (and especially those with a history of uncleared ancestors) ending up with a hereditary health issue. And while you are may not be advising that people choose such puppies, is it not a concern when a breeding like that is made knowingly, and worse, that is is falsely claimed that there _are _full clearances? Many purchasers do not know how to check such claims, and will take the breeder's word for it that they are cleared.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> It doesn't matter if I would have picked an unhealthy puppy or not. The end result is me supporting an unethical/irresponsible breeder and encouraging her to breed again.


Thanks for clearing that up. Thought you were just afraid of getting an unhealthy puppy.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

kwhit said:


> Well there ya' go...your dog is quite pretty. What a fantastic reason to breed. Sorry, I didn't take into account that health can be based on "pretty". My bad...


You mistook my post. I was not promoting or denouncing the OP's decision to breed the dog. 

I simply expressed a compliment about the photos of her dog and her daughter. 

I put it in the same category of going to someone's house for dinner who prepares a very nice-looking beef casserole. I may comment on how nice the dish looks while at the same time disapprove of her having bought factory-farmed beef full of hormones at Safeway. She should only have purchased her beef from a regional farmer who has pasture-raised grass-fed cows with no hormones and antibiotics and can prove it. To do any less is harmful to the environment and the long-term health of everyone. 

There's all sorts of categories where we can become purists and absolutists about how something is done.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Read through this thread... certainly many comments were made that I was thinking... I come from the place of clearances first, then consider breeding. But we all know that even doing all those things and having the generations behind the dogs does not always insure perfect health in the pups... and if the premise is to breed service dogs, then along with temperament, there should be health. Regardless, it is water under the bridge as the dog is pregnant... hopefully she will have an easy whelping and hopefully her owner will take Swampcollie's gentle suggestion of checking the pups' eyes. The OP's daughter is adorable and I hope her dog makes a good service dog for her. I have personally never shaved the abdomen of my pregnant girls. I worry that the skin might get nicked and thus lead to mastitis. My girls have been known to rip out their pantalons trying to get the green goo out of them...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

MyBentley said:


> You mistook my post. I was not promoting or denouncing the OP's decision to breed the dog.
> 
> I simply expressed a compliment about the photos of her dog and her daughter.
> 
> ...


 
 Did it specifically read on the invitation to the dinner party that the hostess would be serving beef casserole prepared from pasture-raised grass-fed cows with no hormones and antibiotics? If so, then expecting that she would be able to provide proof would be reasonable, and if she could not, and it was instead proven that she had served quite the opposite, would you remain silent, thereby condoning her actions? 

I don't really think that in a case of producing living creatures, destined to be well loved and valued family members, requiring health clearances and the truth about the same, could quite be compared to your example.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

MyBentley said:


> There's all sorts of categories where we can become purists and absolutists about how something is done.


 
Love this! Hope you don't mind me stealing it lol!


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

MyBentley said:


> I hope all goes well with the whelping and the new litter. Frankly, I think it *will be* very generous of you to share photos and information considering the tone of a number of these posts.


I take this to mean that she should share future pictures and information of the litter, (because of the wording I put in bold). I personally don't think this litter has any business getting free "advertising" on this forum. 



MyBentley said:


> I put it in the same category of going to someone's house for dinner who prepares a very nice-looking beef casserole. I may comment on how nice the dish looks while at the same time disapprove of her having bought factory-farmed beef full of hormones at Safeway. She should only have purchased her beef from a regional farmer who has pasture-raised grass-fed cows with no hormones and antibiotics and can prove it. To do any less is harmful to the environment and the long-term health of everyone.
> 
> There's all sorts of categories where we can become purists and absolutists about how something is done.


And if those hormones caused a health issue with one of your family members that was debilitating to them, and it could have been prevented, would you then feel differently? Would you not warn others of the possible consequences of those "hormones"?


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

When you know better, you do better.

Now you know better (knowing about the 4 clearances), then next time please do better (get the 4 clearances BEFORE breeding).

If you know better and don't do better, well- that is unconscionable. Both dogs are of age to have had these clearances in advance. 

This thread has become a little hostile, a he-said, she-said. The bottom line is that we all want the best for the dogs for their entire lives. Giving them anything less than the best shot possible is short changing them and their owners. The puppies are probably here by now, enjoy them but please don't let all of this information go unnoticed. It is important.


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## debra1704 (Feb 22, 2012)

Thank goodness that people don't need clearances to reproduce. 

Lovely dog, and your daughter is truly beautiful, best of luck with the puppies.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

And please feel free to post pictures when they are born. Good luck!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Off topic, but the local farm that is hormone free with grass feed beef has really gamey meat. I find the pork at that farm to be really gamey, too. Oh and post puppy pictures, please...


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> I don't think that the tone has been snarky. :no: Valid questions and concerns raised and asked, politely. Just facts, and when it comes to health clearances, I would think that anyone professing to love the breed would understand those concerns. This litter is advertised on several of the Puppy4Sale sites, shipping available. Nothing referrencing service dogs on any of them.


You are correct, shipping is available, but only to what I feel is a qualified home. I am not advertising this litter as service dogs, because I know that not every one of them will be service dog quality. What i said previously is that it is our HOPE to produce service/therapy quality dogs. I have however spoken to potential owners about this.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

I have not been dishonest with the clearances. Potential buyers have the right to ask me about clearances, and I will show them. I have which clearances have been done listed right on my website. I have not purposefully or not deceived anyone, nor do I plan on it. With that said, this is our first litter. I am new to breeding, and you have definitely opened on my eyes on factors to consider before breeding again. I appreciate that. Truly, I do. I don't however appreciate the accusations made in this thread that I am deceiving potential buyers and don't care about the health of the puppies. Lets not beat a dead horse. I've heard you. It's something I haven't taken lightly. What's done is done, and now we wait for the puppies.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

debra1704 said:


> Thank goodness that people don't need clearances to reproduce.
> 
> Lovely dog, and your daughter is truly beautiful, best of luck with the puppies.


Your post seriously made me LOL. :


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

I did not come here for "free advertising" I came here because I've been a lurker for awhile, and was excited to share in the whelping, and of course puppy pictures.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

CarolinaCasey said:


> When you know better, you do better.
> 
> Now you know better (knowing about the 4 clearances), then next time please do better (get the 4 clearances BEFORE breeding).
> 
> ...


 
The information has not gone unnoticed, and is defintely being considered carefully and I will do my best to make sure these puppies are healthy, and will do my best to do so in the future as well, including getting ALL clearances on mom, and maming sure dad has ALL clearances as well.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

The ads state your breeding "quality" goldens and striving to meet the AKC standard. Your hope is to produce service/therapy dogs. But what have dam & sire of this litter accomplished (aside from reproducing) that can validate any of those statements. Based on previous posts, your're training your golden to assist your daughter, she's not actually a certified service dog right? Do both goldens have at least a CGC that could support the claim of a sound temperament? It's frustrating to see someone jump into breeding and spend more time on advertising & putting together a website than selecting compatible goldens with proven qualities from an unbiased eye that would better the breed, not just add to it. That being said, fingers crossed for a healthy mom & healthy pups. Have you considered working with a rescue for placement of the puppies? You keep your service dog prospect and the rescue ensures the rest of the pups make it into great homes w/ spay/neuter contracts.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Love this! Hope you don't mind me stealing it lol!


Not at all.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Did it specifically read on the invitation to the dinner party that the hostess would be serving beef casserole prepared from pasture-raised grass-fed cows with no hormones and antibiotics? If so, then expecting that she would be able to provide proof would be reasonable, and if she could not, and it was instead proven that she had served quite the opposite, would you remain silent, thereby condoning her actions?
> 
> I don't really think that in a case of producing living creatures, destined to be well loved and valued family members, requiring health clearances and the truth about the same, could quite be compared to your example.


I do agree that a breeder shouldn't advertise something that isn't true; but the posts to the OP were very negative before that was even known.

I entirely disagree that the widespread use of factory-farming and the wide public consumption of meat containing hormones and antibiotics isn't as important as creating litters of purebred dogs that maybe had one or two clearances instead of four or five. 

Do even a little reading on how so many antibiotics don't work any more for humans partially due to the consumption of eating meat filled with them or how much environmental damage is being done to the land and air from factory farming. We, as a nation, better hope thats a lot more important and critical for humans than the subject matter of this thread.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> You are correct, shipping is available, but only to what I feel is a qualified home. I am not advertising this litter as service dogs, because I know that not every one of them will be service dog quality. What i said previously is that it is our HOPE to produce service/therapy quality dogs. I have however spoken to potential owners about this.


Are you familiar with Pigmentary Uveitis?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

CarolinaCasey said:


> When you know better, you do better.
> 
> Now you know better (knowing about the 4 clearances), then next time please do better (get the 4 clearances BEFORE breeding).
> 
> ...


 
The OP has been a member here since June 2011. It would be very difficult to miss that all clearances should be done prior to breeding. It should not be a surprise that those passionate about the breed, and "doing it right", would find that having made a breeding without, and claiming that they were, would garner this sort of reaction.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

It would also be irresponsible for the exeprienced breeders on this forum who DO know a thing or 53 about breeding for the betterment and health of the breed _not_ to share their wealth of experience - and try to educate. It is invaluable knowledge they possess. For the OP - and hundreds more members and lurkers.

And the OP has acknowledged that. This is a good thing! It's not easy to admit that perhaps you made a mistake. Hopefully it will affect any future thoughts of breeding. What's done cannot be undone. 

Personally, I can't imagine whelping a litter having done nothing more than raise my puppy. I wouldn't know where to start. I really hope it goes well, but I hope that you will come here if you are worried, if things don't progress, etc.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Thanks SweetGirl for your response. I am fairly comfortable with the whelping process, While I have not had a litter of my own, I have researche and been a part of dog births, and have also assisted in numerous human births (which i know are not the same, but there is a lot of similarity). I won't let the criticism keep me away. I understand the concern.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> Thanks SweetGirl for your response. I am fairly comfortable with the whelping process, While I have not had a litter of my own, I have researche and been a part of dog births, and have also assisted in numerous human births (which i know are not the same, but there is a lot of similarity). *I won't let the criticism keep me away. I understand the concern*.


 
Good. And thank you for understanding. It really does all come from a good place. 

Again, hope all goes well.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Any puppies yet? How's mamma doing?


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## mooselips (Dec 4, 2011)

Waiting...patiently.......


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Abby is whelping! First puppy was born at 8:15, we have 3 so far 2 boys, and a girl. She is laboring seamlessly!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> Abby is whelping! First puppy was born at 8:15, we have 3 so far 2 boys, and a girl. She is laboring seamlessly!


 
Yeah! Way to go Abby! At least she waited until morning lol!


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Yeah, Abby! :headbang2:banana::rockon::wiggle: Way to go pretty girl!


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## debra1704 (Feb 22, 2012)

Yay! Congrats! Can't wait to see photos!


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

Great news, can't wait to see photos. Did you actually stay up all night with her?


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## GoldenMum (Mar 15, 2010)

Wonderful news, may it finish seamlessly!


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## mooselips (Dec 4, 2011)

cannot wait for the pics!!!


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## maggiesmommy (Feb 23, 2010)

Yay!! Hope mom and pups are doing well...post pictures when you can.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

goldhaven said:


> Great news, can't wait to see photos. Did you actually stay up all night with her?


I got about 2 hours of sleep, she kept waking me up to potty/vomit.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Here she is with her first 2


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)




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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Congratulations Abby! Looks like alot of red heads!!!

I first counted 6. Didn't see the black collared one right away lol! Oh wait there's another one under moms ear?


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## maggiesmommy (Feb 23, 2010)

So cute! Congrats on happy healthy mom and puppies.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

How cute! I see 7 but that could be one that she is licking underneath her. Sooooo, how many? Is she done? Looks like all went well.


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## GoldenMum (Mar 15, 2010)

Congrats!!!! Everyone looks great!!!


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

She has 10, 7 boys, 3 girls. I think she's done. Everything went textbook. She went into labor last night around 8. Started hard/active labor around 6:45. Delivered her first pup at 8:15 and her last at noon.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

wow, great job. Looks like the boys win. My final total was 6 and 2


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)




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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Glad it all went well. Darling photos. I'm sure everyone is exhausted.


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## AlanK (Jun 28, 2008)

Beautiful babies Is your daughter exited? She is like Godmother to them all. Congrats!


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

Congratulations on the healthy litter. They are beautiful.


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## debra1704 (Feb 22, 2012)

Awwwwwwww. Makes me want a redheaded boy to go with my blondie gal.


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## PrincessDi (Jun 8, 2009)

They are beautiful. I'm sure that Mom is exhausted.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

That's a lot of pups!! And nice of her to deliver the pups during the day! I am not a night person and hate the late whelpings....


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

While I think the puppies are cute, I hope we aren't going to start congratulating everyone who decides suddenly that they want to breed because they have a nice dog. I really thought that was part of GRF, teaching people about responsible and reputable breeding. 

This thread has really disturbed me when it comes to this. People are saying how wonderful this breeding is and how horrible anyone who has objected or brought up all the clearances that should be done. You know, a reputable breeding? What happened to supporting that here?


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## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

Very cute pictures, thank you for sharing!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Hopefully, we have educated the OP?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Here's my point of view... Today we radiographed a dog on her third back to back litter... She is obese and is bred to some random dog in the dog park. And she has no clearances.. I also saw a golden with juvenile cataracts that I diagnosed three years ago... They have tried to breed the dog since, but not "AKC"... The owner spoke about well there is always "interbreeding".... Oyyy.


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## Wagners Mom2 (Mar 20, 2012)

That is a LOT of pups! I was seriously mistaken when I assumed that first time moms didn't have *that* many! 

Glad mom and babies are all ok.  Hope you get some rest tonight.


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## megkate (Feb 7, 2012)

Enough already! I think the OP has clearly gotten the message and will do better in the future. SterlingGoldens - you have a beautiful girl and a lovely litter of pups. Enjoy them!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Hopefully, we have educated the OP?


The million dollar question. Watching for those wording changes she was going to make... In the meantime, all I can do is hope that she gets that entire litter in to an ACVO vet prior to them being sold, pray that they have long, healthy lives, and that the mother in fact passes all of her health clearances. ALL being CERF, cardiac, hip and elbow.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

fostermom said:


> While I think the puppies are cute, I hope we aren't going to start congratulating everyone who decides suddenly that they want to breed because they have a nice dog.* I really thought that was part of GRF, teaching people about responsible and reputable breeding. *
> 
> This thread has really disturbed me when it comes to this. People are saying how wonderful this breeding is and how horrible anyone who has objected or brought up all the clearances that should be done. You know, a reputable breeding? What happened to supporting that here?


Teaching is one thing. Cramming stuff down ones throat is another. I applaud the op for being an adult and not letting all the negativity get to her while going thru this wonderful and exhausting whelping and coming back to share it with us._ I actually thought GRF was about our love of goldens and sharing experiences whether they be good or bad or up or down or sad or happy, *no matter how they were put here on earth*._ She already acknowledged the lashing out from some breeders and their followers. Let's all be happy the puppies are doing well.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

AlanK said:


> Beautiful babies Is your daughter exited? She is like Godmother to them all. Congrats!


Yes, she is super excited. All 4 of my kids are. My 2 girls helped with the process. My special needs girl handed me their collars


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> Hopefully, we have educated the OP?


Yes, and as I've said before, I've taken everything to heart and will make changes in the future.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

megkate said:


> Enough already! I think the OP has clearly gotten the message and will do better in the future. SterlingGoldens - you have a beautiful girl and a lovely litter of pups. Enjoy them!


Thanks, the horse is definitely dead, beaten, and long gone...


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> The million dollar question. Watching for those wording changes she was going to make... In the meantime, all I can do is hope that she gets that entire litter in to an ACVO vet prior to them being sold, pray that they have long, healthy lives, and that the mother in fact passes all of her health clearances. ALL being CERF, cardiac, hip and elbow.


Ah yes, you know because I wasn't busy attending to my dog, her litter, and my own 4 children today...Give it up already. I've acknowleged that I've learned from this experience, and will make changes in the future. Are you this abrasive in real life? :doh:


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Teaching is one thing. Cramming stuff down ones throat is another. I applaud the op for being an adult and not letting all the negativity get to her while going thru this wonderful and exhausting whelping and coming back to share it with us.


I don't really think the comments are about the OP, but the fact that this is an online forum and you know there are always people looking for puppies. This isn't so much educating the OP, as educating people who are looking into breeders who do this. 

If somebody were looking into the OP, it is very unlikely than anyone would recommend buying a puppy from her based on the lack of clearances. If no clearances are done and the dog is simply being bred for the sake of making money out of the dog, than that is basically a backyard breeder. And yes, you can get an AKC registered dog (full registration too) from a backyard breeder. Lots of dogs wind up in shelters and rescues who resulted from wonderful and exhausting whelpings. 

I'm sure the OP is a very nice person and I truly hope her dog is OK. Since she's done this before, I assume that she knows of all the dangers that can happen after the breeding. And I really hope she's going to make sure all those sweet puppies get into good quality homes that she's screened personally. Not sold on online puppy mills or anything like that.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

Megora said:


> I don't really think the comments are about the OP, but the fact that this is an online forum and you know there are always people looking for puppies. This isn't so much educating the OP, as educating people who are looking into breeders who do this.
> 
> If somebody were looking into the OP, it is very unlikely than anyone would recommend buying a puppy from her based on the lack of clearances. If no clearances are done and the dog is simply being bred for the sake of making money out of the dog, than that is basically a backyard breeder. And yes, you can get an AKC registered dog (full registration too) from a backyard breeder. Lots of dogs wind up in shelters and rescues who resulted from wonderful and exhausting whelpings.
> 
> I'm sure the OP is a very nice person and I truly hope her dog is OK. Since she's done this before, I assume that she knows of all the dangers that can happen after the breeding. And I really hope she's going to make sure all those sweet puppies get into good quality homes that she's screened personally. Not sold on online puppy mills or anything like that.



I wasn't aware that she had done this before. I was under the impression that this was her first litter.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

goldhaven said:


> I wasn't aware that she had done this before. I was under the impression that this was her first litter.


She indicated she had experience with whelping although this was her first litter. 

As for the breeding without clearances, I really have no tolerance for it. In the age of the internet where the GRCA website and virtually every golden club has information on clearances to obtain prior to breeding, where there is a great deal of information about hereditary illnesses prevalent in our wonderful breed......it is a total cop out to say you didn't know. Carolina Casey is much kinder than me, I have no patience for those that "do" without doing research. Yes the horse has been beaten to death, but it is something very important to me and many people on this board. So I'm not going to apologize for pointing it out _again_.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

goldhaven said:


> I wasn't aware that she had done this before. I was under the impression that this was her first litter.


This is personally my first litter, I have however been a part of other litters. which is actually what led me into wanting to do it.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> This is personally my first litter, I have however been a part of other litters. which is actually what led me into wanting to do it.



Thank you for clearing that up.


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## Jingers mom (Feb 10, 2012)

Congrats on a beautiful litter of redheads


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> This is personally my first litter, I have however been a part of other litters. which is actually what led me into wanting to do it.


Please take care... 

Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you haven't seen all of the threads where people have advised against buying from iffy breeders... 

I think if there are training clubs and breed clubs in your area, you should get involved and at least be aware of all of the issues that peope are actively trying to settle in the breed to better it or to at least produce the healthiest puppies they can. 

That's not just a "show" thing, because there are plenty of people breeding physically and mentally sound goldens who would be laughed out of a show. 

About service dogs - from what I understand, it can be very difficult breeding dogs for the up-up organizations. I would not make that the only reason to be breeding dogs unless you are already involved or have established yourself. 

I had a friend who used to foster goldens for one of the local organizations, and it was very hard on that dog (the last one they fostered). I think he wound up being a failed foster because he lacked the mental soundness that is necessary for a dog who will be put in very stressful situations. There's a lot more involved than breeding dogs who are very nice and friendly.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> This is personally my first litter, I have however been a part of other litters. which is actually what led me into wanting to do it.


Your website reads as if you are an established breeder and have raised litters before as well, so I can understand the confusion. Having "been part of other litters " would beg the (beaten to death) question: Were those other litters also bred without clearances? 
As for me being "abrasive", I'm sure that there are plenty of people who might think so, but my passion for the health, well being, and integrity of the breed surpasses any desire to be considered sweet, or even well liked.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> As for the breeding without clearances, I really have no tolerance for it. In the age of the internet where the GRCA website and virtually every golden club has information on clearances to obtain prior to breeding, where there is a great deal of information about hereditary illnesses prevalent in our wonderful breed......it is a total cop out to say you didn't know. Carolina Casey is much kinder than me, I have no patience for those that "do" without doing research. Yes the horse has been beaten to death, but it is something very important to me and many people on this board. So I'm not going to apologize for *pointing it out **again*.


And it bears repeating again...


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Megora said:


> Please take care...
> 
> Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you haven't seen all of the threads where people have advised against buying from iffy breeders...
> 
> ...


Thank you for that. I have been in contact with an organization who places service dogs, and am considering working with them in the future. We understand it takes more than just being a social, friendly, nice dog. We have also worked closely with trainers who specifically train working/service dogs who will also be mentoring, examining these pups for potential prospects.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> Thank you for that. I have been in contact with an organization who places service dogs, and am considering working with them in the future. We understand it takes more than just being a social, friendly, nice dog. We have also worked closely with trainers who specifically train working/service dogs who will also be mentoring, examining these pups for potential prospects.


Please also make sure this organization is on the up-up and is legit. And I would hope they are looking for all clearances, considering the lives these dogs will have after they are placed. 

I've heard crazy stuff about so-called organizations that really are bad for the dogs. 

One case I was talking over with a coworker who rescued a lab from such an org - the dog had been abused while in the training phase. Not sure if this was common practice with the group itself or just this terrible trainer but the dogs were always packed in the trunk of the car and shut in while being driven around. This dog had also been handled roughly and was fearful of men (the trainer was a man).


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Megora said:


> Please also make sure this organization is on the up-up and is legit. And I would hope they are looking for all clearances, considering the lives these dogs will have after they are placed.
> 
> I've heard crazy stuff about so-called organizations that really are bad for the dogs.
> 
> One case I was talking over with a coworker who rescued a lab from such an org - the dog had been abused while in the training phase. Not sure if this was common practice with the group itself or just this terrible trainer but the dogs were always packed in the trunk of the car and shut in while being driven around. This dog had also been handled roughly and was fearful of men (the trainer was a man).


Wow, that is really sad. I have definitely made sure it is on the up and up.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> An Assistance Dog must be temperamentally screened for emotional soundness and working ability.
> An Assistance Dog must be physically screened for the highest degree of good health and physical soundness.
> An Assistance Dog must be technically and analytically trained for maximum control and for the specialized tasks he/she is asked to perform.
> An Assistance Dog must be trained using humane training methods providing for the physical and emotional safety of the dog.
> ...



^^^ This is what I'm familiar with through that friend who used to foster for an up-up organization. That is why clearances are still very important and why you have to be very careful and selective in breeding dogs for these legitimate programs. And why so many dogs fail these programs.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> ^^^ This is what I'm familiar with through that friend who used to foster for an up-up organization. That is why clearances are still very important and why you have to be very careful and selective in breeding dogs for these legitimate programs. And why so many dogs fail these programs.


 
Any legitimate service dog organization requires complete health clearances on both parents. 
It has become very difficult for legitimate service dog organizations to do their jobs, as so many "breeders" claim that they are affiliated with/producing dogs for service dogs - think Gold Rocks in Fenton. Anyone can purchase "service dog" vests, bandanas, etc over the internet with no credentials/certification, and put them on any dog.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Megora said:


> ^^^ That is why clearances are still very important and why you have to be very careful and selective in breeding dogs for these legitimate programs. And why so many dogs fail these programs.


The darker golden in my avatar photo is a one of the most wonderful dogs I've ever known. In spite of her amazing temperament she failed out of CCI's service dog program after months and months of training when she failed her hip clearances. They simply can't place a dog with any hint of dysphasia with a handicapped person. 

She is now living permanently with her foster family but it is heartbreaking the amount of time, training and money that was invested with no return. Clearances for the dogs breeding potential service dogs are every bit as crucial as any other dog, no matter what purpose it is intended to serve in life.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

nolefan said:


> The darker golden in my avatar photo is a one of the most wonderful dogs I've ever known. In spite of her amazing temperament she failed out of CCI's service dog program after months and months of training when she failed her hip clearances. They simply can't place a dog with any hint of dysphasia with a handicapped person.
> 
> She is now living permanently with her foster family but it is heartbreaking the amount of time, training and money that was invested with no return. Clearances for the dogs breeding potential service dogs are every bit as crucial as any other dog, no matter what purpose it is intended to serve in life.


Exactly why legitimate organizations are requiring complete health clearances on the dogs before breeding. Yes, there still is a chance that an individual dog will not clear, but the chances are greatly decreased. It is far too expensive for organizations - many who depend on donations and grants simply to exist - to put the time and money into a dog that has a greater chance of being diagnosed with a hereditary health issue once already hundreds or thousands of dollars into it. Not to mention the heartbreak for a person already dependent on a dog only to have it become crippled, or lose its eyesight.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

nolefan said:


> The darker golden in my avatar photo is a one of the most wonderful dogs I've ever known. In spite of her amazing temperament she failed out of CCI's service dog program after months and months of training when she failed her hip clearances. They simply can't place a dog with any hint of dysphasia with a handicapped person.
> 
> She is now living permanently with her foster family but it is heartbreaking the amount of time, training and money that was invested with no return. Clearances for the dogs breeding potential service dogs are every bit as crucial as any other dog, no matter what purpose it is intended to serve in life.


There are many dogs that drop out of these programs for lots of reasons besides health. Yes alot of time and money is involved which most is coming from the foster parents of these programs. The dogs that don't pass are normally adopted by the foster parents and others are put in wonderful forever homes. So it really is a win win situation not a loss.

Passion is a wonderful thing, but depending on how one directs it, it also can hinder or destroy the cause instead of helping it. JMHO!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

> Passion is a wonderful thing, but depending on how one directs it, it also can hinder or destroy the cause instead of helping it. JMHO!


I disagree. I think if you set the bar high people tend to rise to the occasion. Set the bar low and people will do the bare minimum. I don't ever want people to think it's ok to breed irresponsibly because puppies are cute or because "what's done is done." Yes, we want the dam and pups to be healthy and find loving homes, but the ends do NOT justify the means.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

Can't wait to see some more photos of your pups. Hope everything is going well and mom and pups are all doing great.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Mom is doing great, she's taken to motherhood like a fish in water. Puppies are doing well too, they've all gained weight and are quite a lively bunch.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Passion is a wonderful thing, but depending on how one directs it, it also can hinder or destroy the cause instead of helping it. JMHO!


Complacency is far more destructive. JMHO!


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

Love that photo. So cute


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## Dakotadog (Jan 2, 2012)

The puppies are adorable! Congratulations on your litter!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> *Complacency* is far more destructive. JMHO!


I agree. And more often than not people are pushed there because of how others direct their passion for certain causes


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> Mom is doing great, she's taken to motherhood like a fish in water. Puppies are doing well too, they've all gained weight and are quite a lively bunch.


Good job Abby!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

We have a tech who got a wonderful lab/golden at one year of age from the local assistance dog training organization. She flunked for hips. Both parents were purebred dogs with clearances who accidentally "hooked up" during field training...


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> We have a tech who got a wonderful lab/golden at one year of age from the local assistance dog training organization. She flunked for hips. Both parents were purebred dogs with clearances who accidentally "hooked up" during field training...


Oops! ...........


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I agree. And more often than not people are pushed there because of how others direct their passion for certain causes


"More often than not..." Really? Any statistics to prove that? I have found quite the opposite.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I agree. And more often than not people are pushed there because of how others direct their passion for certain causes


So, would you buy one?


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Thanks for sharing the photo. I'm glad all is going well.


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## Jingers mom (Feb 10, 2012)

Abbey, your a pretty girl with beautiful new baby's.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> "More often than not..." Really? Any statistics to prove that? I have found quite the opposite.


Statistics? Really? You can't get statistics if they won't speak up, which is the feedback I am getting

Why not just state your cause and let this forum enjoy what we do. Love our goldens?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Statistics? Really? You can't get statistics if they won't speak up, which is the feedback I am getting
> 
> Why not just state your cause and let this forum enjoy what we do. Love our goldens?


It is precisely my love for the dogs that drives my passion for their well being and encouraging good breeding practices. That _is _my "cause". I won't apologize for that. The dogs do not deserve any less. And I will also continue to state my "cause". No one is stopping you from loving your dogs.

No winking, smiling, waving emoticons needed.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I agree. And more often than not people are pushed there because of *how others direct their passion for certain causes*


That really is a key element. There are all varieties of passion as I pointed out in an earlier post. In the canine world, for some it's breeding the most perfect purebred dog possible, for others it's changing how people feed their dogs or train their dogs. We've all seen what kinds of posts tend to be helpful and what kind simply don't.

On a grander scale a passion may be improving the environment; or fixing our national health care crisis; or closing down or improving animal factory farms; or combating the practices of Monsanto; etc. 

It's unrealistic to think we're all going to be equally passionate on each subject matter.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I (like PG and others) will never apologize for my lack of tolerance for intentional irresponsible breeding. When people try to minimize it's importance it is implicit approval of the irresponsible breeding practices. I get that people think "what's done is done" but I disagree. I don't want it to be "done" again, and approval from people in the golden community on this forum makes it all the more likely to be "done" again. Irresponsible breeding should not be ok with ANYONE who loves this breed.

Call me crazy, difficult, even mean...I really don't care. I care about the dogs and will NEVER support intentional irresponsible breeding. That's why I will continue to post in here so that if a google search brings up this thread, unsuspecting puppy buyers will at least be somewhat informed.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> So, would you buy one?


You are asking me this why?




Pointgold said:


> It is precisely my love for the dogs that drives my passion for their well being and encouraging good breeding practices. That _is _my "cause". I won't apologize for that. The dogs do not deserve any less. And I will also continue to state my "cause". No one is stopping you from loving your dogs.
> 
> No winking, smiling, waving emoticons needed.


Nobody is asking anyone to apologize....

Hey I have a suggestion.....start a new thread about your passion that way the hijacking can stop on this thread. Somehow I have a feeling that some of you want this thread locked up. Just a tiny feeling LOL!


Now back to the regular scheduled program. Abby!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

MyBentley said:


> That really is a key element. There are all varieties of passion as I pointed out in an earlier post. In the canine world, for some it's breeding the most perfect purebred dog possible, for others it's changing how people feed their dogs or train their dogs. We've all seen what kinds of posts tend to be helpful and what kind simply don't.
> 
> On a grander scale a passion may be improving the environment; or fixing our national health care crisis; or closing down or improving animal factory farms; or combating the practices of Monsanto; etc.
> 
> It's unrealistic to think we're all going to be equally passionate on each subject matter.


I am not talking about breeding the "most perfect purebred dog possible". I _am _talking about doing everything possible to assure the soundness - physically and mentally - when a breeding is made. People who know far more than I do have determined that this means not breeding animals without a full compliment of health clearances relevant to the particular breed, and using a breed standard as a blueprint for what the dogs produced should look like. When people who know far less than even I do disregard those things, particularly when they know better, it isn't even about being "equally passionate". It is about doing things right. The ramifications being multiple.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I (like PG and others) will never apologize for my lack of tolerance for intentional irresponsible breeding. When people try to minimize it's importance it is implicit approval of the irresponsible breeding practices. I get that people think "what's done is done" but I disagree. I don't want it to be "done" again, and approval from people in the golden community makes it all the more likely to be "done" again.
> 
> Call me crazy, difficult, even mean...I really don't care. I care about the dogs and will NEVER support intentional irresponsible breeding. That's why I will continue to post in here so that if a google search brings up this thread, unsuspecting puppy buyers will at least be somewhat informed.


I wouldn't expect you to apologize. You have every right to have your standards and be passionate about a given subject. At the same time, it's unrealistic to expect that everyone will be on the exact same page as you . . . even when having access to the same information.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> You are asking me this why?
> 
> 
> > Because I am curious. I wonder just how much the efforts of responsible breeding actually mean to people.
> > If you were looking for a puppy, would you?


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> I am not talking about breeding the "most perfect purebred dog possible". I _am _talking about doing everything possible to assure the *soundness - physically and mentally* - when a breeding is made. People who know far more than I do have determined that this means not breeding animals without a full compliment of health clearances relevant to the particular breed, and using a breed standard as a blueprint for *what the dogs produced should look like.* When people who know far less than even I do disregard those things, particularly when they know better, it isn't even about being "equally passionate". It is about doing things right. The ramifications being multiple.


Physical and mental soundness and what the dogs should look like sounds pretty close to striving for perfection to me. As far as what a breed should look like, it's amazing how much that standard has changed over the decades for some breeds like German Shepherds, labs, and pugs, etc. People at the judging level seem to have skewed it.

Your comments about "doing things right", "disregard those things particularly when they know better"; and "ramifications being multiple": that all applies to so many subject areas. 

I feel similarly about people purchasing most brands of factory farmed meat at the chain grocery stores. Lot's (but not enough) people know the downsides of much of factory farm meat both for their own health and the environment. The "ramifications being multiple" and huge. I try to share information in a mentoring way with relatives or friends when they appear open to it; but I know darn well they won't all agree; or if they do, not want to spend the money on it, etc.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> > Because I am curious. I wonder just how much the efforts of responsible breeding actually mean to people.
> > If you were looking for a puppy, would you?
> 
> 
> ...


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

MyBentley said:


> At the same time, it's unrealistic to expect that everyone will be on the exact same page as you . . . even when having access to the same information.


So we should excuse/ignore/encourage their irresponsible practices and allow their litters' pictures to be shown here on, what I had always believed to be, an educational forum? If people want to play Russian roulette with their choice of a puppy, even after reading about what entails a responsible breeder, well then yes, that's their decision and you're right in that not everyone will be on the same page as I am. But to blatantly put these puppies on this forum gives the impression that GRF is in support of this type of breeding/breeder. _That's_ the part I can't get by.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I (like PG and others) will never apologize for my lack of tolerance for intentional irresponsible breeding. When people try to minimize it's importance it is implicit approval of the irresponsible breeding practices. I get that people think "what's done is done" but I disagree. I don't want it to be "done" again, and approval from people in the golden community on this forum makes it all the more likely to be "done" again. Irresponsible breeding should not be ok with ANYONE who loves this breed.
> 
> Call me crazy, difficult, even mean...I really don't care. I care about the dogs and will NEVER support intentional irresponsible breeding. That's why I will continue to post in here so that if a google search brings up this thread, unsuspecting puppy buyers will at least be somewhat informed.


I agree with you totally, but when we are passionate about something, like breeding, or in my case rescue, we have to try and keep in mind we make more progress when we educate people than when we berate them for their actions.

If you point out x, y, and z should be done in order for it to be done as conscientiously as possible, maybe you taught someone something. If you tell them they did everything wrong and gave no thought to consequences, you probably only made them mad.

We fight an uphill battle as it is, I'd rather educate someone and hopefully prevent the same mistakes, rather than judge and condemn them and they learn nothing.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

mylissyk said:


> I agree with you totally, but when we are passionate about something, like breeding, or in my case rescue, we have to try and keep in mind we make more progress when we educate people than when we berate them for their actions.
> 
> If you point out x, y, and z should be done in order for it to be done as conscientiously as possible, maybe you taught someone something. If you tell them they did everything wrong and gave no thought to consequences, you probably only made them mad.
> 
> We fight an uphill battle as it is, I'd rather educate someone and hopefully prevent the same mistakes, rather than *judge and condemn *them and *they learn nothing*.


 
And at the same time it doesn't necessarily mean they are not educated on the subject.


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## Stef_Walsh (Sep 3, 2011)

kwhit said:


> So we should excuse/ignore/encourage their irresponsible practices and allow their litters' pictures to be shown here on, what I had always believed to be, an educational forum? If people want to play Russian roulette with their choice of a puppy, even after reading about what entails a responsible breeder, well then yes, that's their decision and you're right in that not everyone will be on the same page as I am. But to blatantly put these puppies on this forum gives the impression that GRF is in support of this type of breeding/breeder. _That's_ the part I can't get by.


Not that I'm agreeing with irresponsible breeding, but by your logic those members who post pictures and talk about their puppies that came from less than ideal situations should also not be doing so. In the same way that someone might come into this thread and see some of the users saying how nice these puppies are and want to have one, so too can they look a thread with pictures of another users' puppy from, say, a backyard breeder, see us all saying "what a wonderful puppy," and get into the mindset that if one person's backyard-bred dog turned out okay, then so will theirs.

That said, I do get what you are trying to say, but I don't think that scaring people such as the OP away from posting pictures of their new litter and receiving feedback would help much. Having them here and getting the kinds of educational responses that she has gotten is much better than them getting no useful information for the future. Just my two cents!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Stef_Walsh said:


> Not that I'm agreeing with irresponsible breeding, but by your logic those members who post pictures and talk about their puppies that came from less than ideal situations should also not be doing so. )


Totally not the same thing. Not at ALL. Why would anyone ever say "don't show pictures of your puppy," that makes no sense. This issue has been gone over a number of times in threads on here.....


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> Abby is trained as a service dog for our daughter, we are hoping to produce dogs that are capable/geared toward service/therapy/working dogs as well as improve in the size of the pups as abby is on the smaller side of the breed standard. Mother has had preliminary clearances. Dad has full clearances. Here is Abby with our daughter who has a progressive genetic disorder.
> 
> Oops, edited to add the photo:


How cool is that!


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

mylissyk said:


> We fight an uphill battle as it is, I'd rather educate someone and hopefully prevent the same mistakes, rather than judge and condemn them and they learn nothing.


I agree...however, should this forum be making this litter so accessible to potential puppy buyers? Everyone here knows that if someone came on here and asked about this particular litter, we would all advise to look elsewhere. We're giving mixed messages to people. So which is it? 

I agree with a question that Pointgold asked another poster, but I'm going to put it out there to all of you......how many of you that have congratulated and insisted on pictures from this "breeder" about this litter would actually buy a puppy from them? I'm really curious...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Is it me, or are some people now just responding to carry on an argument for arguments sake? And yes, to me, it does look like in some way the GRF is condoning this type of breeding practice...


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> And, as was pointed out in a discussion I was having with a friend, it would seem that clearances would be _supremely _important to someone producing service dogs.


Agreed! I do hope that everything turns out well.


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## Stef_Walsh (Sep 3, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Totally not the same thing. Not at ALL. Why would anyone ever say "don't show pictures of your puppy," that makes no sense. This issue has been gone over a number of times in threads on here.....


I see it differently. And isn't that what kwhit is saying in reference to the OP? These are her puppies, yes? I think we are interpreting what she said differently.

In reference to the last point, I haven't been a member here that long and I don't really have the time to go back and look at all of the past threads, so while I know without a doubt that this issue has been talked about before, I haven't seen them. Sorry!


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> And yes, to me, it does look like in some way the GRF is condoning this type of breeding practice...


The above is one of the driving forces behind my responses. Another is what I had to do this morning: 

I just got back from taking Chance to the vet for his quarterly NSAIDs panel. Every time I have it done, I'm a nervous wreck that the call I get will be that his liver is failing. I don't want anyone else to have to go through all the uncertainty if it can be prevented. Every time the phone rings today, my heart will drop. I can't help thinking that one of these times it will be "that call". And it will kill me. Not a good feeling...:no:

Please, please support health testing so future dogs won't have to feel pain, and future owners won't have to feel such heartache. These health issues *can* be prevented, we just have to make responsible choices.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Stef_Walsh said:


> I see it differently. And isn't that what kwhit is saying in reference to the OP? These are her puppies, yes? I think we are interpreting what she said differently.


No, she's saying we are encouraging irresponsible breeding practices by allowing people to oooo and ahhh over the pictures. And allowing her to indirectly market these puppies on this website. 

Yes, this "breeder" is showing pictures of her newborn puppies, but a member showing a picture of their new puppy is not the same thing. No one is saying member with a puppy acquired from any breeder (reputable or otherwise), rescue, shelter (or even found on the street) should not have pictures on the forum. I just don't want to give irresponsible breeders free reign to advertise their litters and a forum to allow people to condone the breeding practices.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And I can speak for myself, but I like to encourage photos. I like to see puppies. Since I certainly do not agree with breeding dogs without clearances, I in no way condone the pregnancy and whelping on this thread.. however, I still like to see pups. You know my answer to where I would by my next dog...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I am guilty of putting photos of my last litter on this forum...


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> The above is one of the driving forces behind my responses. Another is what I had to do this morning:
> 
> I just got back from taking Chance to the vet for his quarterly NSAIDs panel. Every time I have it done, I'm a nervous wreck that the call I get will be that his liver is failing. I don't want anyone else to have to go through all the uncertainty if it can be prevented. Every time the phone rings today, my heart will drop. I can't help thinking that one of these times it will be "that call". And it will kill me. Not a good feeling...:no:
> 
> Please, please support health testing so future dogs won't have to feel pain, and future owners won't have to feel such heartache. These health issues *can* be prevented, we just have to make responsible choices.


I feel your pain. I really do. I went thru hell with my Cody:no: But I don't blame the respected reputable breeder whom I purchased him from because I know that nothing is guaranteed.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

There's no guilt when the litter is produced responsibly


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## Stef_Walsh (Sep 3, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I just don't want to give irresponsible breeders free reign to advertise their litters.


This I completely understand, and in that regard yes I can totally see the difference.


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

This is another run away thread. I will be closing it down as no more useful information is coming out of it.


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