# POWERFUL Pup- pulling and jumping



## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

Okay- so background and apologies for the length- I have had large dogs for over 50 years- including German Shepherds, various crosses, we have a senior Golden and now a 7 month old pup (got him at 8 weeks) who we clearly should have called “Bulldozer.” All of my dogs have done obedience and have become great members of the family and society. I also have been involved in the horse industry my entire life- so I am used to dealing with the psychology and the handling of large powerful animals.
This pup is really creating a crisis- he is SO powerful- he can literally pull me off my feet. Yes- we have him in obedience classes- yes we work with him on obedience skills every single day, yes he gets lots of free run exercise and play. We have even started doing a scenting class with him to help to keep him mentally stimulated. Yes I have done the leash under my foot trick- he can pull it out. Yes I have done the stand still and don’t let hom move until the leash is slack (Ithis can go on for an hour), also the quickly head in the opposite direction with encouragement and a treat- nope- he’s not having it. He reallly seems to get the physics of how to use his weight and force (he’s about 65Lbs). We are trying to work on loose leash walking- (and yes- I ALWAYS have a pocket full of high value treats but he often could care less if he gets over stimulated) and he will go merrily along and suddenly completely line out like a bullet. I have handled unruly stallions that are easier to manage.
He is starting to become impossible to control around people as he is ripping my arms out of the socket and jumping up (not at all aggressive- just dangerously friendly?). He could easily knock an adult off their feet- never mind what he could do to a child. He does not do this with us of course, and we cannot expect strangers to know what to do (Yes, we have tried soliciting help from dog people [arms behind back- turn away, ignore, move away]- but this is hard to do). He hits that over stimulated level in a heartbeat.
I have never had to use a harness on a dog before but I do on this one because I really think he would break his neck/ permanently damage his trachea. I had him in a martingale collar and I literally may as well have had a string on him. I have resorted to using a no pull harness with both a front and back clip. I hate to say it but I have even been considering a vibrating (not shock) collar as s last resort. Some people have suggested a slip lead - but like a choke collar- this dog’s _modus operandi_ makes me think he would really harm himself.
We have always socialized him from the time he was fully vaccinated- (even before that we had him in a special pup socialization class). As noted above he is still in classes weekly where he routinely looses it and wants to bolt out to play with the other dogs. He is walked 2X daily for at least half an hour AND free run time in the empty dog park daily- we take him out in the car, he has a yard, we take him onto all stores that allow dogs 2-3 times a week- but it is becoming more and more difficult instead of better.
Any humane suggestions?


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

When you have a horse that is too hot to safely handle on a buckle halter, you put a chain over or under its nose.

We use similar tools with a dog. I might try a chain or a slip with this dog, but might move to the prong collar.

In the end, since you just want a dog that is easier to walk, I would condition him to the head halter. I dislike these because they are a strong aversive, but when you control the dog’s head, you are in a much better place. They require quite a bit of conditioning to make the dog feel comfortable and are a sharper tool. The prong collar is not quite as sharp, but it is much easier for a dog to acclimate and pull on a prong without consistency.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

Tagrenine said:


> When you have a horse that is too hot to safely handle on a buckle halter, you put a chain over or under its nose.
> 
> We use similar tools with a dog. I might try a chain or a slip with this dog, but might move to the prong collar.
> 
> In the end, since you just want a dog that is easier to walk, I would condition him to the head halter. I dislike these because they are a strong aversive, but when you control the dog’s head, you are in a much better place. They require quite a bit of conditioning to make the dog feel comfortable and are a sharper tool. The prong collar is not quite as sharp, but it is much easier for a dog to acclimate and pull on a prong without consistency.


Thank you for the response - don’t think I haven’t wished I could somehow get the control of a stud chain on this pup. We tried a headcollar lead on him and he lost his mind- flipped over leapt in the air- ran backwards- violently shook hi head- it was a definite disaster. Sigh. I agree with you about a prong collar- it’s like moving to a stronger bit and just making a dead mouthed horse- not solving the problem. He would totally lean into it- and sure, a prong collar would work for a while but he would definitely just get used to it/hurt himself.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

sevans said:


> Thank you for the response - don’t think I haven’t wished I could somehow get the control of a stud chain on this pup. We tried a headcollar lead on him and he lost his mind- flipped over leapt in the air- ran backwards- violently shook hi head- it was a definite disaster. Sigh. I agree with you about a prong collar- it’s like moving to a stronger bit and just making a dead mouthed horse- not solving the problem. He would totally lean into it- and sure, a prong collar would work for a while but he would definitely just get used to it/hurt himself.


Its a catch 22. The halti can be used to stop pulling if the dog is trained to wear it. You can’t put one on and just walk because they hate it. I think the boxes come with training manuals (lure the nose through, feed them in it, get them comfortable wearing it loose, a lot of positive association). For the prong, you will need to work with a trainer who knows how to make it so it doesn’t become a crutch, but a training tool like anything else.
And during this process, you don’t want the dog the go past it’s stimulation threshold, which is tough.

I know a lot of this because I had a dog that pulls like an wild child and even though we lived in an apt for a year and had to walk him on a leash at least a mile a day, nothing I seemed to do worked. He and I have gone all the way back to the beginning and I’m taking it much slower. Baby steps until I’m more confident he can move forward.

FWIW, we did not use a head collar, but when the dog is given time to adjust they can be a useful tool for owners. I know some people like the front clasp harnesses (no pull harness), but I’ve had dogs lunge so hard and fast in those they flip themselves backwards


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

Yep- the no pull front clip on the harness isn’t helping but at least he can’t hurt himself. I would definitely struggle where I live to find a trainer that woud allow a prong collar- and in most circumstances and with most people- I support this- but this pup is a “special” case. The halti- yep- we went through all of the careful steps- not all that unlike working with a foal and a first halter- but as soon as he challenged it- that’s when it all hit the fan. It was ugly. The zero to 100 over stimulation with this pup is bizzare - he can be standing quietly or actually walking along at my side and then he checks out. Not interested in food-(even super high value treats like cheese, cooked chicken, beef) becomes completely unaware of my voice, the leash- totally intent on whatever has captured his attention- and there is no escalation- like flipping a switch. He is a real challenge to be sure.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

There are a lot of members on this site with way more experience than me in aversive tools, so I’ll wait for them to respond before I give more advice, since I’m in a semi similar position. Best of luck and I totally understand your struggle!


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

sevans said:


> Any humane suggestions?


You don't need a harness of any kind.
Teach him "sit', 'heel" and "here". Don't use treats, he needs to learn and obey commands rather than accept bribes in exchange for good behavior.
I would also reinforce the commands once they are taught with the use of an e-collar.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

Tagrenine said:


> There are a lot of members on this site with way more experience than me in aversive tools, so I’ll wait for them to respond before I give more advice, since I’m in a semi similar position. Best of luck and I totally understand your struggle!


Thanks very much- your ideas are certainly sound- just already had the same thoughts and ended up against a wall. Sigh. Cheers


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Ugg. I can feel your frustration and it sounds like you've already tried all the standard things that would be recommended. I'm usually die-hard positive, so it will likely shock the Forum that I would also be considering a prong collar at this point, but only if an experienced trainer shows you how to fit and use it correctly, and _only _if it was effective (if he chooses to pull even on the prong, then you're just asking for injury).

Did you say that there are no professional trainers near you? Or only +R trainers near you? I doubt the "average" trainer would be of any help, but if you can find one with real experience and credentials, it might be worth one or more one-on-one sessions with them, not so much for training advice, but for an assessment of your dog's motivation for pulling (it may or may not be the obvious one), as well as critiquing your current responses/leash handling, and why they're not working, etc. I sometimes find that the trainer/behaviorists who work for large shelters are a good resource since they see more than their fair share of dogs with behavioral issues. If worse came to worst and you couldn't find a trainer near you with the correct credentials and experience, you might be able to find someone who will work with you via video/online. I think an assessment of _why _your dog is pulling and what he finds reinforcing about it, may help you find the key to finding a training technique that will work.

In the meantime... You might (or might not) find something helpful among Susan Garrett's podcasts: Shaped by Dog with Susan Garrett, or among some of the pet dog training video "workshops" at Fenzi Dog Sports Academy (I recommend the "Multiple Methods to Loose Leash Walking" class Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - Pet Dog Training Online - Video Presentations).

You may also find this story thought provoking: ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Song and the Sheep


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

I went through the same thing years ago. I would find an obedience trainer who will teach you how to use a prong collar or e collar correctly. SRW post was correct about bribing with a treat and then the dog simply goes back to the unwanted behavior. In the meantime try wrapping the leash under the belly and walking your powerful pup. You can see how to wrap the leash on the internet. I was taught that trick at an obedience clinic. That will avoid the nose halter.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

sevans said:


> Thank you for the response - don’t think I haven’t wished I could somehow get the control of a stud chain on this pup. We tried a headcollar lead on him and he lost his mind- flipped over leapt in the air- ran backwards- violently shook hi head- it was a definite disaster. Sigh. I agree with you about a prong collar- it’s like moving to a stronger bit and just making a dead mouthed horse- not solving the problem. He would totally lean into it- and sure, a prong collar would work for a while but he would definitely just get used to it/hurt himself.


I think a prong can solve the issue. Don't allow him to pull on it. Give him a quick and firm (not harsh) correction -- stay relaxed and go from correction immediately back to relaxed with a loose leash. It's a quick and effective movement. Don't let him pull into it with steady pressure. I hate halti leads as much as the dogs do. I occasionally use a harness for hiking and recently in my dog's first snow (just in case excitement overtook his brain.) He's not dragging me on it though and since you have a pulling dog, I'd avoid one for now. I know it's difficult if you are surrounded by R+ only trainers and societal pressure you are being "cruel" to your dog. You aren't and it's YOUR dog. I've been in that situation and they will set you back as in, for some dogs, it could take until they are eight to get good behavior with the R+ only training. 😅 I hope you can find a balanced trainer to work with your dog's particular needs. Stay consistent and it will work.

As for e-collars, we use one for field training for recall and various other times where he is in an off leash situation (usually in Cashiers, NC when he's running free on meadows.) I bought courses from Robin MacFarlane and Connie Cleveland. Both were helpful. I have not used it on any setting I can't put up against my own skin. It feels like a tens unit to me. I would turn it up if I had to if he refused to recall in a dangerous situation like a bear showing up or something like that.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

pawsnpaca said:


> Ugg. I can feel your frustration and it sounds like you've already tried all the standard things that would be recommended. I'm usually die-hard positive, so it will likely shock the Forum that I would also be considering a prong collar at this point, but only if an experienced trainer shows you how to fit and use it correctly, and _only _if it was effective (if he chooses to pull even on the prong, then you're just asking for injury).
> 
> Did you say that there are no professional trainers near you? Or only +R trainers near you? I doubt the "average" trainer would be of any help, but if you can find one with real experience and credentials, it might be worth one or more one-on-one sessions with them, not so much for training advice, but for an assessment of your dog's motivation for pulling (it may or may not be the obvious one), as well as critiquing your current responses/leash handling, and why they're not working, etc. I sometimes find that the trainer/behaviorists who work for large shelters are a good resource since they see more than their fair share of dogs with behavioral issues. If worse came to worst and you couldn't find a trainer near you with the correct credentials and experience, you might be able to find someone who will work with you via video/online. I think an assessment of _why _your dog is pulling and what he finds reinforcing about it, may help you find the key to finding a training technique that will work.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It is perhaps more saddening than anything else. I really have had many super successful obedience dogs- nt all were easy but nothing like this boy. We have many trainer near us but understandable they are all R+- which I generally support- especially when one considers the alternatives in the hands of the inexperienced. His motivation is pretty clear- he is excited and wants to explore the environment, some of it is boisterous energy (normal for his breed and age but very spontaneous) and the overwhelming desire to meet and greet people. He doesn’t pull toward otehr dogs- though he does like to play and he has some canine friends with whom he has good games of chase and pounce. He is also not a barker- very non-vocal. His jumping and pulling is accompanied by tail wagging.
Would you suggest a prong collar over a slip lead? I have used a prong collar once before with one of my german Shepherds- but she was older and was dog reactive (that Shepherd misdirected protection drive) and I only used it in training sessions with the trainer. It helped but it was a crutch and it never treated the issue only the symptoms. She got better with age and careful controlled exposure to some really big obedient dogs but was nver really good with other dogs. So- my concern is that a) he is awfully young to have a prong collar on and b) will it simply punish the act and not remove the desire?
I will definitely take a look at the resources you name. BTW- we did try a one on one with a trainer who came to our home- she wanted to try her company’s “special harness.” I didn’t want to appear to be a know it all- and I am open to any humane suggestions-so I went along with it. He literally dragged her down the street and she almost took a header. She put his martingale collar back on immediately and left with saying that he was certainly challenging.
Anyway- thank you agin.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

diane0905 said:


> I think a prong can solve the issue. Don't allow him to pull on it. Give him a quick and firm (not harsh) correction -- stay relaxed and go from correction immediately back to relaxed with a loose leash. It's a quick and effective movement. Don't let him pull into it with steady pressure. I hate halti leads as much as the dogs do. I occasionally use a harness for hiking and recently in my dog's first snow (just in case excitement overtook his brain.) He's not dragging me on it though and since you have a pulling dog, I'd avoid one for now. I know it's difficult if you are surrounded by R+ only trainers and societal pressure you are being "cruel" to your dog. You aren't and it's YOUR dog. I've been in that situation and they will set you back as in, for some dogs, it could take until they are eight to get good behavior with the R+ only training. 😅 I hope you can find a balanced trainer to work with your dog's particular needs. Stay consistent and it will work.
> 
> As for e-collars, we use one for field training for recall and various other times where he is in an off leash situation (usually in Cashiers, NC when he's running free on meadows.) I bought courses from Robin MacFarlane and Connie Cleveland. Both were helpful. I have not used it on any setting I can't put up against my own skin. It feels like a tens unit to me. I would turn it up if I had to if he refused to recall in a dangerous situation like a bear showing up or something like that.


Thank you for your suggestions. It is a conundrum to be sure. Have you ever tried a vibrating e collar?


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

sevans said:


> Would you suggest a prong collar over a slip lead?


Yes, I would suggest a prong over a slip (not that I'm super experienced, or happy, with either). In my mind, the prong (used correctly - or at least what I understand to be correctly) is a self-inflicted correction (i.e., if he doesn't pull, he doesn't get the correction). If you let him pull on a slip lead, he'll just choke himself worse (and most dogs, in my experience, don't care). If you jerk it to give him a correction, then your timing has to be very good in order for the correction to be "fair" (or for that matter, clear to the dog what behavior prompted the correction). Most people just don't have good timing. I also think at this point your boy may be beyond being responsive to a slip lead/choke correction anyway (you need to go from slack to choke and back to slack as part of the correction - which is hard to do if your dog is already pulling).

Based on your description, if you want to stay positive, then I think you need to think in terms of "negative punishment" (bad behavior makes a good thing go away). It sounds like he's pulling in order to get to people. So, step one, never let him get so close to someone he wants to meet that you can't redirect him with treats, toys, praise or even just a redirection away from the person he wants to meet. At the beginning, that may mean staying VERY far away from people, as well as going through the embarrassment of telling people who'd like to meet him that they can't because he's in training (and holding firm when they say "Oh it's OK, I don't mind, I LOVE dogs!" 😠). Instead, when he sees or begins to pull toward someone, turn around and walk AWAY from them. Dogs do what works, and if pulling consistently results in him going further away from the thing they want, I think he'll begin to try to figure out what behavior will get him closer (which will, ideally, be maintaining slack in his lead). Read the story I linked at the end of my first reply and think how you could replace the "sheep" in the story with people for your dog. I would put, as far as you possibly can, a complete moratorium on him interacting with ANYONE (other than you) while he's on leash. Go back to Leash Training 101 (practicing the basics in your house or yard with minimal distractions and moving on only as he masters each step). You need to instill in him that he NEVER gets to interact with people when he's on leash. Unless you are absolutely consistent with that, the intermittent reinforcement will make it nearly impossible to extinguish the behavior. Obviously, he loves people enough that you don't have to worry about teaching him to dislike or fear them (which, btw, is one of the dangers of pairing a desire to meet someone with pain or another aversive). A few months of keeping him away from other people and working on him focusing on YOU shouldn't do any damage to his love for people. He just needs to learn that his ability to access the thing he wants depends on him doing what YOU want and waiting for _permission _to do what HE wants (in a way, it's no different from teaching a dog a sit stay by not putting his food dish down for him until he sits and remains sitting until you give him permission to eat).

I think you'll find the resources I linked helpful, but do come back and let us know what worked (or didn't work) for you!


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## goldielynn (Sep 5, 2020)

I'm actually a huge fan of the head collar/gentle leader. The correction he gets if he moves past the end of the leash is enough for him to be like "woah, I don't like that and I don't want to feel that again." And as a small woman, the feeling of confidence that I get to be able to walk my large dog with one hand because of the head collar is amazing. For the most part, due to that, and months of just changing direction whenever he pulled (on a slip lead) has finally gotten him to a place to walk on a loose leash. But for very excitable places (e.g., dog show, pet store, on set when he needs to film a commercial, I always put him on a gentle leader and tell him that he's working). He now walks on a loose leash 99% of the time, the other 1% of the time is pulling because he sees another dog he wants to go meet. Like with all puppies, we're still a work in progress.

If you go prong collar or head collar, you should do pre-training drills before you even go on your walk because I think if you just head into your walk, I imagine it's going to be frustrating. In your backyard, you need to walk and stop, and when you stop, he should know to stop, and if he goes to the end of his leash, you should give him a tug/correction to come back to you. No treats. And keep doing this until he understands that going to the end of the leash is not what you want from him.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

sevans said:


> I am open to any humane suggestions


Has anyone offered you inhumane suggestions and if so what were they?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

OH GIRL I'm not even reading all the responses
You need a pinch collar and a few lessons with a RETRIEVER TRAINING (field work) professional and I'd be collar conditioning this dog PRONTO
All of this will change your life


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Quit being so nice to your dog....he's not being nice to you


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

K9-Design said:


> OH GIRL I'm not even reading all the responses
> You need a pinch collar and a few lessons with a RETRIEVER TRAINING (field work) professional and I'd be collar conditioning this dog PRONTO
> All of this will change your life


Agree! I was going to say basically the same thing.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

DevWind said:


> Agree! I was going to say basically the same thing.





K9-Design said:


> OH GIRL I'm not even reading all the responses
> You need a pinch collar and a few lessons with a RETRIEVER TRAINING (field work) professional and I'd be collar conditioning this dog PRONTO
> All of this will change your life


Not doing field work with this dog- but thank you for the suggestion. I have two friends who do field work and neither of their dogs will recall without an e-collar. Their choice- their sport- just an observation. Remember- this is still a young puppy- not my first Golden and certainly not my first large dog. This is not an easy fix and is a complicated dog.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

sevans said:


> Thank you for your suggestions. It is a conundrum to be sure. Have you ever tried a vibrating e collar?


My collar has a vibration function. After collar conditioning, I have used my e-collar stimulation on an as needed basis for recall. Logan recalls pretty darn well, so that equates to not often. I have used it once on the field and he responded to it very quickly after having been so over-aroused he did not recall when I called him. He was a good distance away, but close enough to hear me. I had no problem using it as he was not listening and he understands recall. If I say "come" he needs to do so. It's a matter of safety. 

I have not had to use it in the mountains, but I feel like he may possibly chase a wild turkey or something. He has verbally called off a squirrel, so I don't know. He doesn't chase deer -- just stares at them -- and he stopped on a dime with me and backed up as I did (on command) when we saw a bear not too far away. Maybe he sensed my concern or thought that's a big beast. What I love about the e-collar (when we are able) is Logan can enjoy free running without being restrained by a leash. He loves the freedom and running at full speed.

As far as what function you use goes, it depends on the dog. I don't know that a vibration from an e-collar is less stimulation to the dog than a low level stimulation. I think the vibration on my e-collar is heavy enough that it is startling, whereas I don't see that response with low level stimulation. You have to figure out what works for your dog with the lowest level possible.

As to halti leads, I don't get why it is considered humane to use one of those, but not humane to use an e-collar or Herm Sprenger. Used correctly, the latter only seem more sinister due to names like shock collar and pinch/prong collar and haltis get names like "gentle" leader. If you have a dog willing to take the hit, that's a lot of pressure on his nose and possibly eye area. I also don't see how a dog learns anything on one. I prefer a correction. I could say similar things about a flat collar if someone has a dog who chokes out at the end of one. I mean -- that can't be comfortable. Some harnesses damage shoulders and harnesses can encourage pulling for a dog who pulls...

My agility trainer likes to use a halti to take her Border Collies into competition venues. I could see positives about using one for that if it were allowed. I can see why people make different choices, but I don't think demonizing tools is productive. I'm all for speaking out about cruelty and misuse.

If your dog has been taught a command and understands what you are requesting, it's more humane to take less time to insist he listens than to let him go a long time getting over-aroused and pulling on a lead. It stresses you out and it stresses him out. With a prong, you can eventually transition him off as he can learn it's simply not acceptable to jerk you all over the place.

FWIW, I don't see any damage to our relationship going on here.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

sevans said:


> Not doing field work with this dog- but thank you for the suggestion. I have two friends who do field work and neither of their dogs will recall without an e-collar. Their choice- their sport- just an observation. Remember- this is still a young puppy- not my first Golden and certainly not my first large dog. This is not an easy fix and is a complicated dog.


Doesn’t make any difference if you’re doing fieldwork with the dog or not. Basic obedience is the same and seven months old is not a young puppy.
I have dozens of field trial friends and their dogs all recall without using an E collar. This would fall under the general guideline that you do not teach with an E collar. I’m going to make an educated guess that the E collar is one of those “inhumane solutions” you referred to.
The only complication with your dog is that you’re reinforcing bad behavior by never correcting it. It’s your dog and you can do as you please but don’t pretend you want to fix a problem if you’re going to reject all the training methods that would and do work.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

diane0905 said:


> My collar has a vibration function. After collar conditioning, I have used my e-collar stimulation on an as needed basis for recall. Logan recalls pretty darn well, so that equates to not often. I have used it once on the field and he responded to it very quickly after having been so over-aroused he did not recall when I called him. He was a good distance away, but close enough to hear me. I had no problem using it as he was not listening and he understands recall. If I say "come" he needs to do so. It's a matter of safety.
> 
> I have not had to use it in the mountains, but I feel like he may possibly chase a wild turkey or something. He has verbally called off a squirrel, so I don't know. He doesn't chase deer -- just stares at them -- and he stopped on a dime with me and backed up as I did (on command) when we saw a bear not too far away. Maybe he sensed my concern or thought that's a big beast. What I love about the e-collar (when we are able) is Logan can enjoy free running without being restrained by a leash. He loves the freedom and running at full speed.
> 
> ...


Much appreciated. As a horse person- I have an open mind about equipment and it all depends on what I call the “who and why?” As in _who_ is using it and are they using it correctly and humanely and _why_ is being used in the first place. I completely agree with you about the negative culture around certain types of training equipment- usually as a result of it being inappropriately applied or used incorrectly by people who don’t know what they are doing.
With the R+ movement and what appears to be pretty much a revulsion toward any kind of alternate training equipment in my area- I am hard- pressed to find a professional to help me to work with an e-collar- though I really do think it would have its merits to be sure. I would just not want to use this puppy as my training dummy. Sigh. 
Thinking a prong collar is going to be my next step- as I have used one before- though as I indicated in an earlier post- itwas more a crutch than a solution. 
Thank you again for taking the time to respond- very much appreciated.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

sevans said:


> Not doing field work with this dog- but thank you for the suggestion. I have two friends who do field work and neither of their dogs will recall without an e-collar. Their choice- their sport- just an observation. Remember- this is still a young puppy- not my first Golden and certainly not my first large dog. This is not an easy fix and is a complicated dog.


That's not field training. That's a lack of proper training without a collar. You don't necessarily have to do field to collar condition. The field trainers are some of the best at collar conditioning. I own a collar conditioned dog. She will turn on a dime to come when called. Her sire is has an OTCH and MH. Actually, he has multiples of each.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

I’ll say it again, the E collar is the single most effective and humane training tool ever invented.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

DevWind said:


> That's not field training. That's a lack of proper training without a collar. You don't necessarily have to do field to collar condition. The field trainers are some of the best at collar conditioning. I own a collar conditioned dog. She will turn on a dime to come when called. Her sire is has an OTCH and MH. Actually, he has multiples of each.


I apprecitae the reply- but I am living in an area which is completely devoid of trainers who will use an e-collar and I am reluctant to experiment with my pup as my “training dummy.” If I had access to someone who could help me- that would be great but I don’t want my pup to suffer because of my ineptitude with the equipment.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

SRW said:


> I’ll say it again, the E collar is the single most effective and humane training tool ever invented.


It definitely can be. Every dog is different. I put one on my girl after being conditioned and it quickly halted the bad behaviors. My boy could probably handle it but the need for it never presented itself. I wonder if people have tried them on themselves. It's the exact same thing you get from a TENS unit! You aren't electricuting the dog. Try one if you don't believe me. Anyone turning it up that high is being way too harsh. They are much less offensive to most dogs than the vibration and tone collars are.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

sevans said:


> Not doing field work with this dog- but thank you for the suggestion. I have two friends who do field work and neither of their dogs will recall without an e-collar. Their choice- their sport- just an observation. Remember- this is still a young puppy- not my first Golden and certainly not my first large dog. This is not an easy fix and is a complicated dog.


1)You don't have to do field work with your dog to use an e collar as a tool. Just because your friends do field work with their dogs doesn't mean that the dogs have been taught proper basic obedience and it certainly doesn't mean that your friends have been using the e collar the right way. It's a tool.

2) You already said yourself that the dog is 65 pounds and 7 months old, you've been working on obedience for 5 months and he is still a danger, he isn't responding to what you're doing. You have already said that you feel certain that he is tough enough that he will start pulling on the prong collar and just learn to pull through it. It seems that you're only open to what you're familiar with but admitting that it's not working.

3) Your puppy needs boundaries to convince him that he needs to stop his behavior. You mentioned "So- my concern is that a) he is awfully young to have a prong collar on and b) will it simply punish the act and not remove the desire? " your dog is not too young to be given boundaries and nothing is going to remove his desire to do whatever the heck he wants to do including dragging you around - he has to learn that you are not going to allow him to do that. A properly used collar will let him know when he's hit the boundary.

Here is something that may interest you if you're opposed to a prong collar - Delmar Smith Wonder Lead used properly it applies the same idea as the prong collar without prongs. Again though, it's making the dog think that pulling on the lead and disobeying you are not fun.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

sevans said:


> I apprecitae the reply- but I am living in an area which is completely devoid of trainers who will use an e-collar and I am reluctant to experiment with my pup as my “training dummy.” If I had access to someone who could help me- that would be great but I don’t want my pup to suffer because of my ineptitude with the equipment.


I would not have wanted to try one without seeking the help/training of a very experienced person.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

I am with Diane; it is why I don’t really use one. Ofc there are a lot of resources online, but nothing beats an in person trainer.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

nolefan said:


> 1)You don't have to do field work with your dog to use an e collar as a tool. Just because your friends do field work with their dogs doesn't mean that the dogs have been taught proper basic obedience and it certainly doesn't mean that your friends have been using the e collar the right way. It's a tool.
> 
> 2) You already said yourself that the dog is 65 pounds and 7 months old, you've been working on obedience for 5 months and he is still a danger, he isn't responding to what you're doing. You have already said that you feel certain that he is tough enough that he will start pulling on the prong collar and just learn to pull through it. It seems that you're only open to what you're familiar with but admitting that it's not working.
> 
> ...


I am not sure you have been following the entire thread- as some of what you are saying seems to be disconnected. My response regarding field work was in response to the post that indicated ”You need a pinch collar and a few lessons with a RETRIEVER TRAINING (field work) professional.” There are no field dogs where I live and certainly no field dog trainers. I am not adverse to using a prong collar and as stated, I have used one in the past with one of my Shepherds. I do feel that 7 months is pretty young- but if it’s where I have to go- that would be the direction in which I would lean because I know enough to recognize that working with an e-collar is something one should be taught how to use by someone who really knows what they are doing. Again- I am living in a vacuum in trying to get any assistance with that. I do not object to their use - only to their inappropriate use by people who are unskilled.
You seem to have got the impkression that i am just banging my head against the same wall with this dog for the past 5 months. I have been to three teainers, have him currently in two different classes (obedience and scenting), have used a flat collar, a martingale collar, a choke chair (non pinch flat links), and a double ringed harness. I have used many different training tehniques- both that I have learned from working with my own dogs in the past (which I had shown to several obedience titles), with past trainers, and with the most recent three trainers. I assure you- I am not just doing the same old same old.
We have worked on boundaries with him since he was 8 weeks old. This is a pup that stays off of the funriture unless specifically invited, who understands that some rooms are out of bounds - with no gates or doors in place, who sits and waits while his food is placed in front of him, who will not touch food that is dropped to the floor in front of him or offerred in the hand unless he his given his release word. On a long line he will do a full two minute stay and recall. His basic obedience in all other areas is pretty good (sit, down, stay, wait, leave it, give) it is the loose lead walk, the jumping and the instant over stimutaion that creates a complex contradiction to all other aspects of this temperament.


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

Yep, just told the OP same thing . Prong collars or e collars can change that attitude very quickly for both dog and owner!


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

JDandBigAm said:


> Yep, just told the OP same thing . Prong collars or e collars can change that attitude very quickly for both dog and owner!


Yes, and if I could invite you to read my responses, I am not adverse to either device- but I have no one to help me learn to use an ecollar safely or effectively and I have used a prong collar in the past with limited results on an older dog (she was about a year and half and it was a dog reactivity issue). I do have concerns about using one on a puppy- but may have go that route.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Learning to use an E collar is not that difficult. There are many resources online, books, DVDs etc. to learn from.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

sevans said:


> Not doing field work with this dog- but thank you for the suggestion. I have two friends who do field work and neither of their dogs will recall without an e-collar. Their choice- their sport- just an observation. Remember- this is still a young puppy- not my first Golden and certainly not my first large dog. This is not an easy fix and is a complicated dog.


I'm not suggesting you do field work. I'm suggesting you take obedience lessons from a field pro because they are used to training large, boisterous dogs on a daily basis. EVERY pro takes in dogs and clients for basic obedience, it's EASY MONEY for them. They'd make VERY SHORT WORK of your dog's training issues. Your dog is not complicated, he's just a big jerk. And please don't make the assumption that your friends' poorly trained, collar-wise dogs are the norm for field trained dogs, or dogs trained with a collar.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

sevans said:


> I apprecitae the reply- but I am living in an area which is completely devoid of trainers who will use an e-collar and I am reluctant to experiment with my pup as my “training dummy.” If I had access to someone who could help me- that would be great but I don’t want my pup to suffer because of my ineptitude with the equipment.


No you're not. Canada is FULL of retriever training/hunt test/field trial pros ESPECIALLY in the summer. You just aren't looking for the right trainer. No, you probably won't find a pet trainer who uses a collar but every decent field pro will be.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

K9-Design said:


> No you're not. Canada is FULL of retriever training/hunt test/field trial pros ESPECIALLY in the summer. You just aren't looking for the right trainer. No, you probably won't find a pet trainer who uses a collar but every decent field pro will be.


Um… you DO realize how BIG Canada is, right? I live on Vancouver Island- finding a trainer in Toronto or even in Vancouver isn’t going to help me. Please don’t tell me what is or is not in my own area- it is rather condescending and implies that I am either stupid or haven’t bothered trying. i have contacted the BCGR Club and my breeder and the CKC and no one knows of anyone in my area. Thanks.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Maybe if you head towards Whistler?  I'm just kidding. The only places I've ever been in Canada are Vancouver and Whistler. Beautiful.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

diane0905 said:


> Maybe if you head towards Whistler?  I'm just kidding. The only places I've ever been in Canada are Vancouver and Whistler. Beautiful.


 Whistler is lovely- a two hour ferry ride and then another two hour drive from there… Cheers.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

sevans said:


> Um… you DO realize how BIG Canada is, right? I live on Vancouver Island- finding a trainer in Toronto or even in Vancouver isn’t going to help me. Please don’t tell me what is or is not in my own area- it is rather condescending and implies that I am either stupid or haven’t bothered trying. i have contacted the BCGR Club and my breeder and the CKC and no one knows of anyone in my area. Thanks.


Great!!! I have two VERY GOOD friends in your neck of the woods that are active in retriever training, each having top 5 derby dogs IN THE COUNTRY in past years. It's an active area for retriever training. Again, you just haven't looked in the right place. You may have to drive for a lesson, you won't find them down the street. It'll be worth it.
If you haven't heard of Zaniri Goldens I would recommend you look them up and send them a message...more active field golden people you couldn't find. Or Anne Everett, Heads Up Goldens...the Gunns, wow...TONS of great trainers in your area! And I live 3000 miles away and I know this!
You're coming to us for advice but you've poo-pooh'ed every viable suggestion, so....guess you want sympathy instead? I trained 9 dogs today so I'm all outta sympathy for rambunctious 7 month old puppies...


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

sevans said:


> I am not sure you have been following the entire thread- as some of what you are saying seems to be disconnected. My response regarding field work was in response to the post that indicated ”You need a pinch collar and a few lessons with a RETRIEVER TRAINING (field work) professional.” There are no field dogs where I live and certainly no field dog trainers. I am not adverse to using a prong collar and as stated, I have used one in the past with one of my Shepherds. I do feel that 7 months is pretty young- but if it’s where I have to go- that would be the direction in which I would lean because I know enough to recognize that working with an e-collar is something one should be taught how to use by someone who really knows what they are doing. Again- I am living in a vacuum in trying to get any assistance with that. I do not object to their use - only to their inappropriate use by people who are unskilled.
> You seem to have got the impkression that i am just banging my head against the same wall with this dog for the past 5 months. I have been to three teainers, have him currently in two different classes (obedience and scenting), have used a flat collar, a martingale collar, a choke chair (non pinch flat links), and a double ringed harness. I have used many different training tehniques- both that I have learned from working with my own dogs in the past (which I had shown to several obedience titles), with past trainers, and with the most recent three trainers. I assure you- I am not just doing the same old same old.
> We have worked on boundaries with him since he was 8 weeks old. This is a pup that stays off of the funriture unless specifically invited, who understands that some rooms are out of bounds - with no gates or doors in place, who sits and waits while his food is placed in front of him, who will not touch food that is dropped to the floor in front of him or offerred in the hand unless he his given his release word. On a long line he will do a full two minute stay and recall. His basic obedience in all other areas is pretty good (sit, down, stay, wait, leave it, give) it is the loose lead walk, the jumping and the instant over stimutaion that creates a complex contradiction to all other aspects of this temperament.


No, I did read the entire thread, that's why I said I knew you'd been working on his obedience and that you'd gone down the list of collar and harness. stepping on the leash and all to no avail. Honestly, there's nothing surprising about your problem, it's very typical, even for people who have worked hard on teaching young dogs to learn self control - some personalities grasp the idea of patience, waiting and being still to get the reward easily and quickly but it is different when he's moving and in a more exciting environment. If he was smaller and not as strong, maybe you could spend more time with this, but as long as you're fair, and you have been by teaching what you expect, when it becomes a safety issue, yours or his or a strangers, consequences do have a place and he'll be a happier dog for it.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

K9-Design said:


> Great!!! I have two VERY GOOD friends in your neck of the woods that are active in retriever training, each having top 5 derby dogs IN THE COUNTRY in past years. It's an active area for retriever training. Again, you just haven't looked in the right place. You may have to drive for a lesson, you won't find them down the street. It'll be worth it.
> If you haven't heard of Zaniri Goldens I would recommend you look them up and send them a message...more active field golden people you couldn't find. Or Anne Everett, Heads Up Goldens...the Gunns, wow...TONS of great trainers in your area! And I live 3000 miles away and I know this!
> You're coming to us for advice but you've poo-pooh'ed every viable suggestion, so....guess you want sympathy instead? I trained 9 dogs today so I'm all outta sympathy for rambunctious 7 month old puppies...


Wow- are you serious? I don’t know why you elect to be so rude. You didn’t read most of the thread and came out with insults, assumptions, and condescension. So again, thanks for your suggestions- your VERY GOOD friends are both are more than 4 hours away from me each way. Zanni Goldens is on the mainland in Surrey, BC - this is a two hour ferry ride ($150 each way) and a two hour drive once on the mainland-. Head’s Up Goldens is in Merville, BC- yes- on Vancouver Island- an island that is larger than the states of Vermont ), New Hampshire ), Massachusetts, and more than twice the size of Connecticut - just being ON the Island does not mean that it is feasibly drivable. I guess you know better than our provincial GR club, the Canadian Kennel Club or my breeder who was the BC Club secretary and has 35 years of breeding champions behind her. Are you suggesting that they are lying? Why on Earth would I (or they) want to undermine my dog’s ability to be successful?
I resent your insinuation that I am somehow just too lazy to drive somewhere. The training I currently have him in is more than 45 minutes away- his earlier class was more than an hour away. You are in no position to judge me. You are right about one thing- you ARE 3000 miles away- but you don’t know much about Canadian geography. If you had read the thread- you would know that far from “poo-pooing every viable suggestion” I have been positive and grateful- and keenly aware that using an e-collar requires professional guidance and careful instruction. Your attitude is unbecoming to the breed and to this forum.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

nolefan said:


> No, I did read the entire thread, that's why I said I knew you'd been working on his obedience and that you'd gone down the list of collar and harness. stepping on the leash and all to no avail. Honestly, there's nothing surprising about your problem, it's very typical, even for people who have worked hard on teaching young dogs to learn self control - some personalities grasp the idea of patience, waiting and being still to get the reward easily and quickly but it is different when he's moving and in a more exciting environment. If he was smaller and not as strong, maybe you could spend more time with this, but as long as you're fair, and you have been by teaching what you expect, when it becomes a safety issue, yours or his or a strangers, consequences do have a place and he'll be a happier dog for it.


I agree- I am going to talk to our current trainer this week- even though she is very R+ she also has common sense and I think she has seen him at his “finest.” Probably a prong collar- since sadly I have not been able to locate anyone anywhere near me who could teach me to safely and effectively use an ecollar- thjough increasingky, I think that might actually be more humane. Thanks.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

K9-Design said:


> Great!!! I have two VERY GOOD friends in your neck of the woods that are active in retriever training, each having top 5 derby dogs IN THE COUNTRY in past years. It's an active area for retriever training. Again, you just haven't looked in the right place. You may have to drive for a lesson, you won't find them down the street. It'll be worth it.
> If you haven't heard of Zaniri Goldens I would recommend you look them up and send them a message...more active field golden people you couldn't find. Or Anne Everett, Heads Up Goldens...the Gunns, wow...TONS of great trainers in your area! And I live 3000 miles away and I know this!
> You're coming to us for advice but you've poo-pooh'ed every viable suggestion, so....guess you want sympathy instead? I trained 9 dogs today so I'm all outta sympathy for rambunctious 7 month old puppies...


A very nice attempt but apparently not pampering enough.


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## Jasmyne (Dec 28, 2021)

I can feel the frustration in your posts. 
I follow two trainers YouTube channels and I think they are great and might be of some help. 

1. Leerburg (Michael Ellis is an amazing trainer) they have tutorials on ecollars for you to learn about them if you choose to go that route (just mentioning based on thread content) 
2. Beckman’s Dog Training - Joel Beckman tells it straight like it is. 

They both have tons of videos that may help inspire you to try some techniques a little differently for reactivity.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

Jasmyne said:


> I can feel the frustration in your posts.
> I follow two trainers YouTube channels and I think they are great and might be of some help.
> 
> 1. Leerburg (Michael Ellis is an amazing trainer) they have tutorials on ecollars for you to learn about them if you choose to go that route (just mentioning based on thread content)
> ...


Thank you very much. While Youtube may not be anything like a replacement for a real live person- it is certainly a good start. Thanks for the suggestions- I will start watching tonight! Cheers.


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## Jasmyne (Dec 28, 2021)

sevans said:


> Thank you very much. While Youtube may not be anything like a replacement for a real live person- it is certainly a good start. Thanks for the suggestions- I will start watching tonight! Cheers.


No problem. You are an experienced dog owner so I don’t think you need a person trainer you just need your confidence back and some fresh inspiration to try. I can imagine all the effort has been draining when it’s not working especially when you know all the things to do. 
youtube is a wonderful resource and both those channel have tons of videos. You can probably narrow down some videos from their playlist topics.
Joel does a ton with reactive and leash reactive dogs. Michael has quite a few videos on the psychology of dogs as well to understand why when something isn’t working.
You know this dogs read energy so he will get away with what you allow. Like a forever two year old 😉


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

Jasmyne said:


> No problem. You are an experienced dog owner so I don’t think you need a person trainer you just need your confidence back and some fresh inspiration to try. I can imagine all the effort has been draining when it’s not working especially when you know all the things to do.
> youtube is a wonderful resource and both those channel have tons of videos. You can probably narrow down some videos from their playlist topics.
> Joel does a ton with reactive and leash reactive dogs. Michael has quite a few videos on the psychology of dogs as well to understand why when something isn’t working.
> You know this dogs read energy so he will get away with what you allow. Like a forever two year old 😉


Yes- he’s a challenge to be sure. Very much appreciate your suggestions- it is a vast resource! I think the e-collar info is a DVD set of two as I could only find the trailers for Parts 1 and 2 but it looks worth ordering. Thanks for your understanding. He certainly does have his good moments and he is a very sweet boy- but clearly this nonsense has got to stop.


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## Jasmyne (Dec 28, 2021)

sevans said:


> Yes- he’s a challenge to be sure. Very much appreciate your suggestions- it is a vast resource! I think the e-collar info is a DVD set of two as I could only find the trailers for Parts 1 and 2 but it looks worth ordering. Thanks for your understanding. He certainly does have his good moments and he is a very sweet boy- but clearly this nonsense has got to stop.





https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQmuP7rv83ML95BD9Fpg3zGfUtOCmjf61




https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQmuP7rv83MIOzhvPZ3rZvQkBnzPW6Rbt



I think they do go into some details in all the videos. I am not tech savvy so the links may not work 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## Jasmyne (Dec 28, 2021)

Here is just one of the 100’s of video Joel does showing his leash correction method.which works!!


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

Jasmyne said:


> https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQmuP7rv83ML95BD9Fpg3zGfUtOCmjf61
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks! I’ll give this a try! See look at him- butter wouldn’t melt in his floppy mouth!


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## Jasmyne (Dec 28, 2021)

He is very sweet! I’m sure once you figure out the trigger you will be better equip to help him chill out.


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## Winnie’smom (Jul 16, 2020)

Hi Sevans,
I just wanted to say it’s very clear how hard you have worked with your boy! Please update here if you find something that is very helpful. Our golden is 1.5 but sounds somewhat similar. She is very obedient and chill inside, never goes on furniture, respects our boundaries, 4 on the floor etc. However, despite many different trainers we haven’t been able to master walking, once she gets excited/attention gone on a walk it’s over-she loses all interest in treats and acts like she can’t even hear me. We’ve done all the things (basics with treats, turning, waiting for slack, head halter), but have not tried a pinch collar. She’s a very strong 75lbs, and I’m 100lbs with shoulder problems , it’s an unsafe combination for both of us. 
best of luck to you!


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## Jasmyne (Dec 28, 2021)

sevans said:


> Thanks! I’ll give this a try! See look at him- butter wouldn’t melt in his floppy mouth!
> View attachment 889260


Honestly I would try Beckmans method for reactivity first before ecollar but that is just my choice. I find Joel’s techniques to make sense to me and they work!


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

Winnie’smom said:


> Hi Sevans,
> I just wanted to say it’s very clear how hard you have worked with your boy! Please update here if you find something that is very helpful. Our golden is 1.5 but sounds somewhat similar. She is very obedient and chill inside, never goes on furniture, respects our boundaries, 4 on the floor etc. However, despite many different trainers we haven’t been able to master walking, once she gets excited/attention gone on a walk it’s over-she loses all interest in treats and acts like she can’t even hear me. We’ve done all the things (basics with treats, turning, waiting for slack, head halter), but have not tried a pinch collar. She’s a very strong 75lbs, and I’m 100lbs with shoulder problems , it’s an unsafe combination for both of us.
> best of luck to you!


If I find anything useful- I will certainly pass along our progress. Our situations sound very similar to be sure. Thank you for your support!


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

sevans said:


> I agree- I am going to talk to our current trainer this week- even though she is very R+ she also has common sense and I think she has seen him at his “finest.” Probably a prong collar- since sadly I have not been able to locate anyone anywhere near me who could teach me to safely and effectively use an ecollar- thjough increasingky, I think that might actually be more humane. Thanks.


R+ doesn’t work for this one. That’s okay. There is no one size fits all solution with dogs. Step it up. He needs consequences. You don’t have to be abusive. You just need to find that one thing he finds offensive. He needs to learn that he has to respect you. It’s about more than acting like a fool on a walk. A prong collar would be my suggestion because it sounds like safety is at risk. Yours and his.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Prong collar for the immediate solution. Long-term, consider an e-collar. Connie Cleveland's online tutorial is an excellent and practical starting place. And lots and lots of retrieving. Wear that puppy out.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

PalouseDogs said:


> Prong collar for the immediate solution. Long-term, consider an e-collar. Connie Cleveland's online tutorial is an excellent and practical starting place. And lots and lots of retrieving. Wear that puppy out.


Thank you for your suggestion- i will definitely take a look at the tutorial. While he does a great deal of walking and free play/ running- I have been told by the breeder (actually part of the sale contract) do do minimal fetch, no jogging/ chuck-it work (basically anything with a hard stop and a roll back) until he is 12 months to reduce potential for joint injury. Fortunately- he is quite happy to really run himself out in the field daily and he does have a few dog buddies that he plays with.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

sevans said:


> Thank you for your suggestion- i will definitely take a look at the tutorial. While he does a great deal of walking and free play/ running- I have been told by the breeder (actually part of the sale contract) do do minimal fetch, no jogging/ chuck-it work (basically anything with a hard stop and a roll back) until he is 12 months to reduce potential for joint injury. Fortunately- he is quite happy to really run himself out in the field daily and he does have a few dog buddies that he plays with.


No fetch? Goldens live for fetch! That's too bad because playing fetch would be a great way to develop a better connection. By 7 months old, mine could fetch pretty much anything, including birds almost as big as they were. In fact, my boy had a mini paint roller to fetch at 8 weeks. It was only 2 or 3 feet but he learned the idea very young.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

DevWind said:


> No fetch? Goldens live for fetch! That's too bad because playing fetch would be a great way to develop a better connection. By 7 months old, mine could fetch pretty much anything, including birds almost as big as they were. In fact, my boy had a mini paint roller to fetch at 8 weeks. It was only 2 or 3 feet but he learned the idea very young.


Not”no fetch” but minimal fetch- I think her main concern (and my vets both supported this) is the contant hard stop and roll back of the “chuck-it” type of repetative action that could be harmful to open growth plates. He certainly does _some “_retrieving”- and has learned to bring back objects, drop them and to wait politely for it to be picked up.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

sevans said:


> Not”no fetch” but minimal fetch- I think her main concern (and my vets both supported this) is the contant hard stop and roll back of the “chuck-it” type of repetative action that could be harmful to open growth plates. He certainly does _some “_retrieving”- and has learned to bring back objects, drop them and to wait politely for it to be picked up.


That's good. That's just not something that was in my dogs' contracts. But then telling obedience people not to let their dogs fetch wouldn't go over well. I've taught mine to deliver to hand. They don't drop anything because they know they will be the one picking it up. Maybe let him fetch a little more. Building a better connection is a good start.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Throw the bumper in tall grass so he has to slow down and look for. If you don't have bumpers, buy a six-pack. Something like this, for example. 








BLACK/WHITE Regular HexaBumpers -- 6 pack


BLACK/WHITE Regular HexaBumpers -- 6 pack. Black and white "flasher" is perfect for mark training Flat-sided hex shape = easier for your dog to hold$47.94 (Save $6.00) The Avery HexaBumper 6-sided design offers advanced technology that eliminates many disadvantages of round dummies...




 www.gundogsupply.com




You can toss a bumper with a rope attached further than a toy. You need at least six because they will get lost or end up in trees and on top of your roof on a regular basis. With multiple bumpers, you can start working on doubles and triples. 

If you aren't doing so already, teach him to do "stand-alones." Put him in a sit, walk away, toss bumper, release from a distance. You can do distances from 20 to over 100 yards. If you are okay with him dropping the bumper at your feet when he returns, that's fine. Personally, I consider having a retriever to mean I never have to bend over to pick up anything. That's his job.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

PalouseDogs said:


> Throw the bumper in tall grass so he has to slow down and look for. If you don't have bumpers, buy a six-pack. Something like this, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those are the best bumpers! I've carefully marked every one of mine so I get them back at group training! I think that's a great idea Kelly. (My guy could use some of that)


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

PalouseDogs said:


> Throw the bumper in tall grass so he has to slow down and look for. If you don't have bumpers, buy a six-pack. Something like this, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some great suggestions- hopefully I can find a fenced “tall grass” area when the spring rolls around. I do not trust his recall -- still working on the long line. He will not be a show or competition dog- just looking for sanity, safety and obedience. (Ha-ha like that’s not a big ask  )


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Teaching a reliable recall with an e-collar will give you and your dog more freedom in unfenced areas, which will allow you to do more retrieving. A tired puppy is a good puppy. Honestly, I don't understand how using common sense at exercising (avoid having a dog leap and twist in the air for a ball, etc.) has turned into cautions to not let them jump higher than the tops of their toes until they're three years old, or limit their retrieves to a couple of trots to get a ball in a small back yard. Young dogs need exercise. Young goldens need a LOT of exercise. 

I have a friend with Afghan Hounds. Last year, we met at Scooteney Reservoir on our way to an OB trial to let the dogs, and us, stretch our legs. This photo of her Afghan and my golden, Pinyon, was taken at a spot about a half mile from the highway that runs along the border of the park. An Afghan can cover half a mile in less than 2 minutes, if they want to (i.e., if they see any running prey item or just because they love to run). This dog could be off-leash because she's wearing an e-collar. You wouldn't want your dog dragging a long line through rocks and sagebrush next to a cliff. Most sighthounds are never allowed off leash in an open area like this because sighthounds are never reliable on a recall without something to back it up. 








By the way, you do not "teach" commands with an e-collar. For a recall, you teach the dog what "Come" means with a long line, so you already have a foundation. When they have the idea, you use the e-collar to enforce the command, first with the dog still on the long line, so you can provide guidance to show them how to turn off the collar stimulation (by moving in your direction). 

Connie Cleveland's e-collar tutorial starts with teaching a recall. She has plenty of video demonstrations of how to do it.

By the way, to solve your dog's problem of lunging happily at other people and dogs, you should not simply give a yank on the prong collar or a zap with the e-collar. Instead, after the dog understands Come and Sit, when he makes a move to a passerby, you say "Come", give him a beat to respond, and, if he doesn't, you give a meaningful correction (step back and give a hard yank on the prong collar or give an e-collar correction). When he Comes, give a command to Sit and, if he doesn't, he gets a correction. The idea is NOT to make him believe that people approaching will cause him to get yanked or zapped, it's to teach him a more appropriate pattern of behavior. Do it often enough, and he'll automatically start coming to you and sitting when passersby approach.


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

PalouseDogs said:


> Teaching a reliable recall with an e-collar will give you and your dog more freedom in unfenced areas, which will allow you to do more retrieving. A tired puppy is a good puppy. Honestly, I don't understand how using common sense at exercising (avoid having a dog leap and twist in the air for a ball, etc.) has turned into cautions to not let them jump higher than the tops of their toes until they're three years old, or limit their retrieves to a couple of trots to get a ball in a small back yard. Young dogs need exercise. Young goldens need a LOT of exercise.
> 
> I have a friend with Afghan Hounds. Last year, we met at Scooteney Reservoir on our way to an OB trial to let the dogs, and us, stretch our legs. This photo of her Afghan and my golden, Pinyon, was taken at a spot about a half mile from the highway that runs along the border of the park. An Afghan can cover half a mile in less than 2 minutes, if they want to (i.e., if they see any running prey item or just because they love to run). This dog could be off-leash because she's wearing an e-collar. You wouldn't want your dog dragging a long line through rocks and sagebrush next to a cliff. Most sighthounds are never allowed off leash in an open area like this because sighthounds are never reliable on a recall without something to back it up.
> View attachment 889276
> ...


Thank you for the response and the lovely photo. We had a Greyhound once- so I know the special challenges of having a sight hound. I appreciate your input. I am not sure if you have had a chance to wade through all of my respionses but I have had a number of large dogs, raised and trained a few through Obedience trials- so what you are saying is true and commons sense - good practice. This boy is quite another story. Many of the things you are suggesting I already do or have done (not yet moved to the prong or the ecollar- though I have used a prong collar on one reactive dog in the past with mixed results). I am not adverse to using either- BUT I do have concerns about a prong on a pup his age - do you think thi is okay at 7 months? I am going to ask one of the trainers this friday what she thinks- (this is one of the trainers who he dragged down the street in a private one on one lesson- that was… interesting) so she knows how striong he gets when he tunes out. And as smart as using an e-collar is- I have no one in my area to properly teach me how to use one (timing is everything I understand) so that is my drawback. None of the trainers in my area will use an e-collar. Fair enough- I respect their choice and I do not think thay are necessary for all dogs or by people (like myself) who are not properly taught how to use them. Sigh. Thank you again.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Vancouver Island Retriever Club


Promoting CKC Retriever Field Trials on Vancouver Island since 1964




viretrieverclub.ca


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

K9-Design said:


> Vancouver Island Retriever Club
> 
> 
> Promoting CKC Retriever Field Trials on Vancouver Island since 1964
> ...


Thank you- I am aware of this club- but it is a group of people from all over the Island- sort of like a state or provincial organization- they do not have their own facility. Vancouver Island is huge- it takes about 7 hours to drive from one end to the other- and the club members are from all over the Island- sadly it seems except for anywhere within a two hour radius of me. They appear to do most of their field work in Swallowfield- about three and half hours away- each way. I did email them a few times about a month ago as their website encouraged people with training questions to reach out-but did not hear back.


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

If you contact the Gunn's at TNT kennels, Janice would more than likely give you trainers to contact on the island. Are you in the Victoria area or upper part of the island?


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

JDandBigAm said:


> If you contact the Gunn's at TNT kennels, Janice would more than likely give you trainers to contact on the island. Are you in the Victoria area or upper part of the island?


Just North of Duncan- thank you- I will reach out to her tomorrow. Fingers crossed.


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## Jasmyne (Dec 28, 2021)

Have you watched any videos or made any progress with him?


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

Jasmyne said:


> Have you watched any videos or made any progress with him?


I have watched the videos- definitely an e-collar is something I would want one on one instruction with; the videos are great in theory but I think some hands-on lessons are definitely ley a must. A prong is a definitely possibility. I reached out to a trainer who has labs who was recommended by TNT kennels but this person hasn’t updtaed their website since 2013 so I am not optimistic but finger crossed anywy.


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## neshoba201 (Aug 15, 2018)

diane0905 said:


> I think a prong can solve the issue. Don't allow him to pull on it. Give him a quick and firm (not harsh) correction -- stay relaxed and go from correction immediately back to relaxed with a loose leash. It's a quick and effective movement. Don't let him pull into it with steady pressure. I hate halti leads as much as the dogs do. I occasionally use a harness for hiking and recently in my dog's first snow (just in case excitement overtook his brain.) He's not dragging me on it though and since you have a pulling dog, I'd avoid one for now. I know it's difficult if you are surrounded by R+ only trainers and societal pressure you are being "cruel" to your dog. You aren't and it's YOUR dog. I've been in that situation and they will set you back as in, for some dogs, it could take until they are eight to get good behavior with the R+ only training. 😅 I hope you can find a balanced trainer to work with your dog's particular needs. Stay consistent and it will work.
> 
> As for e-collars, we use one for field training for recall and various other times where he is in an off leash situation (usually in Cashiers, NC when he's running free on meadows.) I bought courses from Robin MacFarlane and Connie Cleveland. Both were helpful. I have not used it on any setting I can't put up against my own skin. It feels like a tens unit to me. I would turn it up if I had to if he refused to recall in a dangerous situation like a bear showing up or something like that.


Question: when fitting the prong collar I have heard two ways: snug up on neck and very loose. Do you have a preference?


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## dixiebelle (12 mo ago)

pawsnpaca said:


> Yes, I would suggest a prong over a slip (not that I'm super experienced, or happy, with either). In my mind, the prong (used correctly - or at least what I understand to be correctly) is a self-inflicted correction (i.e., if he doesn't pull, he doesn't get the correction). If you let him pull on a slip lead, he'll just choke himself worse (and most dogs, in my experience, don't care). If you jerk it to give him a correction, then your timing has to be very good in order for the correction to be "fair" (or for that matter, clear to the dog what behavior prompted the correction). Most people just don't have good timing. I also think at this point your boy may be beyond being responsive to a slip lead/choke correction anyway (you need to go from slack to choke and back to slack as part of the correction - which is hard to do if your dog is already pulling).
> 
> Based on your description, if you want to stay positive, then I think you need to think in terms of "negative punishment" (bad behavior makes a good thing go away). It sounds like he's pulling in order to get to people. So, step one, never let him get so close to someone he wants to meet that you can't redirect him with treats, toys, praise or even just a redirection away from the person he wants to meet. At the beginning, that may mean staying VERY far away from people, as well as going through the embarrassment of telling people who'd like to meet him that they can't because he's in training (and holding firm when they say "Oh it's OK, I don't mind, I LOVE dogs!" 😠). Instead, when he sees or begins to pull toward someone, turn around and walk AWAY from them. Dogs do what works, and if pulling consistently results in him going further away from the thing they want, I think he'll begin to try to figure out what behavior will get him closer (which will, ideally, be maintaining slack in his lead). Read the story I linked at the end of my first reply and think how you could replace the "sheep" in the story with people for your dog. I would put, as far as you possibly can, a complete moratorium on him interacting with ANYONE (other than you) while he's on leash. Go back to Leash Training 101 (practicing the basics in your house or yard with minimal distractions and moving on only as he masters each step). You need to instill in him that he NEVER gets to interact with people when he's on leash. Unless you are absolutely consistent with that, the intermittent reinforcement will make it nearly impossible to extinguish the behavior. Obviously, he loves people enough that you don't have to worry about teaching him to dislike or fear them (which, btw, is one of the dangers of pairing a desire to meet someone with pain or another aversive). A few months of keeping him away from other people and working on him focusing on YOU shouldn't do any damage to his love for people. He just needs to learn that his ability to access the thing he wants depends on him doing what YOU want and waiting for _permission _to do what HE wants (in a way, it's no different from teaching a dog a sit stay by not putting his food dish down for him until he sits and remains sitting until you give him permission to eat).
> 
> I think you'll find the resources I linked helpful, but do come back and let us know what worked (or didn't work) for you!


Excellent and thoughtful reply Lisa. Not even my post but even I thank you for taking time to help with this pup!


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## Nextshinything (12 mo ago)

sevans said:


> Okay- so background and apologies for the length- I have had large dogs for over 50 years- including German Shepherds, various crosses, we have a senior Golden and now a 7 month old pup (got him at 8 weeks) who we clearly should have called “Bulldozer.” All of my dogs have done obedience and have become great members of the family and society. I also have been involved in the horse industry my entire life- so I am used to dealing with the psychology and the handling of large powerful animals.
> This pup is really creating a crisis- he is SO powerful- he can literally pull me off my feet. Yes- we have him in obedience classes- yes we work with him on obedience skills every single day, yes he gets lots of free run exercise and play. We have even started doing a scenting class with him to help to keep him mentally stimulated. Yes I have done the leash under my foot trick- he can pull it out. Yes I have done the stand still and don’t let hom move until the leash is slack (Ithis can go on for an hour), also the quickly head in the opposite direction with encouragement and a treat- nope- he’s not having it. He reallly seems to get the physics of how to use his weight and force (he’s about 65Lbs). We are trying to work on loose leash walking- (and yes- I ALWAYS have a pocket full of high value treats but he often could care less if he gets over stimulated) and he will go merrily along and suddenly completely line out like a bullet. I have handled unruly stallions that are easier to manage.
> He is starting to become impossible to control around people as he is ripping my arms out of the socket and jumping up (not at all aggressive- just dangerously friendly?). He could easily knock an adult off their feet- never mind what he could do to a child. He does not do this with us of course, and we cannot expect strangers to know what to do (Yes, we have tried soliciting help from dog people [arms behind back- turn away, ignore, move away]- but this is hard to do). He hits that over stimulated level in a heartbeat.
> I have never had to use a harness on a dog before but I do on this one because I really think he would break his neck/ permanently damage his trachea. I had him in a martingale collar and I literally may as well have had a string on him. I have resorted to using a no pull harness with both a front and back clip. I hate to say it but I have even been considering a vibrating (not shock) collar as s last resort. Some people have suggested a slip lead - but like a choke collar- this dog’s _modus operandi_ makes me think he would really harm himself.
> ...


I had similar problems with our female golden, especially amazing since she had joint issues. You wouldn't think she could be so strong, but she took me down more than once and there were times I thought I'd be seriously injured. Like yours, she was just being overly friendly, wanting to get to people to give them some Golden loving. I finally ended up consulting a dog behavior specialist, Michelle Mullins at Honesttodogrva.com, and now my two-year-old 70lb girl walks on a loose leash and actually pays attention to me instead of losing control every time she sees something she wants. No special equipment required, other than a regular harness. Good luck!


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## goldenmouthpiece (Apr 5, 2014)

i had the same issue with my female. Easy walk harness works like a charm!


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

goldenmouthpiece said:


> i had the same issue with my female. Easy walk harness works like a charm!


Yep- been there tried that. Literally lost his mind. (yes- we did the careful in home “indoctrination” and it was properly adjusted). Flipped himself over backwards a few times- thought he was gou=ing to break his neck or take an eye out. definitely do work for some dogs- definitely not this one. Sigh.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

sevans said:


> Yep- been there tried that. Literally lost his mind. (yes- we did the careful in home “indoctrination” and it was properly adjusted). Flipped himself over backwards a few times- thought he was gou=ing to break his neck or take an eye out. definitely do work for some dogs- definitely not this one. Sigh.


Just checking Sevans… the Easy Walk harness is a body harness with a chest attachment, not a head halter. Are we talking about the same thing here? I’ve never seen a dog flip out over a harness… https://www.amazon.com/PetSafe-Harness-Large-BLACK-SILVER/dp/B0009ZBKG4


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

pawsnpaca said:


> Just checking Sevans… the Easy Walk harness is a body harness with a chest attachment, not a head halter. Are we talking about the same thing here? I’ve never seen a dog flip out over a harness… https://www.amazon.com/PetSafe-Harness-Large-BLACK-SILVER/dp/B0009ZBKG4


My dog walked in this before and would “bolt” and when she hit the end of the leash she would flip over backward


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

Tagrenine said:


> My dog walked in this before and would “bolt” and when she hit the end of the leash she would flip over backward


I _was_ misunderstanding you- and yes, I was thinking you meant the head collar- disaster. However- this is the harness our trainer tried with him. The training facility sells these- I wanted to be open minded so I let her try one on him. At only 5 months (so a good 15 pounds ago) he dragged her down the street- she very nearly did a face plant and suggested that we put a martingale collar back on him. Arrg. he is a real piece of work this boy. We are using a “Repets” harness right now- but all it does is provide some humane containment- does nothing to teach correct behaviour (we have positively re-enforced and re-directed until we don’t know if we are coming or going) or discourage bad behaviour.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

sevans said:


> we have positively re-enforced and re-directed until we don’t know if we are coming or going


So you are doing the same things over and over again and expecting a different results?


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## sevans (Jul 18, 2021)

sevans said:


> I have watched the videos- definitely an e-collar is something I would want one on one instruction with; the videos are great in theory but I think some hands-on lessons are definitely ley a must. A prong is a definitely possibility. I reached out to a trainer who has labs who was recommended by TNT kennels but this person hasn’t updtaed their website since 2013 so I am not optimistic but finger crossed anywy.


So - some really positive news. We finally got in contact with a woman in our general area who trains field Goldens and who has done really well with them. She takes on a few obedience “help me” dogs and she has agreed to take on our boy. So - prong collar (amazing tool- as I suspected- I definitely needed correct instruction on how to use it and how to put it on correctly). We will be graduating to an ecollar and (hopefully) leaving the prong collar behind.
The first thing she did was to put the prong collar on my arm and snap it so I would know exactly what my pup would experience. It was not at all sharp or painful- more a surprise than anything. (Also- she only uses Sprenger collars which is interesting because I use a few Sprenger bits on my horses). She also outfitted my arm with the e-collar-literally felt like someone tapping my arm with a pencil. She cautions that an ecollar (as I suspected) needs specialized instruction (coming up). Walking him with the prong collar is a real eye opener. I have only had to engage it maybe four times- quick, firm, then instant release. He is walking on a slack lead, past people- and sitting quietly while I chat- amazing. Great trainer- Maria Soto.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Thanks for the update. I'm glad you've found something that will work for you and an experienced person to work with. I hope you'll come back and give us periodic updates on how it goes!


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## Ontariodogsitter (Feb 23, 2020)

Good for you, of finding a way to deal with a problem, that works for you and your pup, it will go a long way of enjoying your life together.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Good job finding a field person to teach you basic obedience using a prong collar with the intent to e-collar condition! Must be an echo in here.
Keep up the good work.


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