# Is a breeder reputable if....



## AquaClaraCanines

In my opinion, all results, failed or not, should be published, and an honest breeder will do so. But I am not a breeder, nor do I play one on TV


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## JensDreamboy

I wonder why the breeder wouldnt post the moderate because moderate is passing, correct?


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## Swampcollie

A Breeder is considered "Reputable" if they play by the rules established respective to breed, and to those set set forth by the relative Kennel Club. In the case of the Golden Retriever in the United States, a Breeder would need to adhere to the Code of Ethics established and adopted by the GRCA, and the applicable rules of the AKC. 

If you play by the Rules you're reputable, if you don't play by the rules you're not. It's pretty much that simple.


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## Ardeagold

I feel that all results should be published as well, but few breeders do it. That's why you'll see gaps in OFA results for many dogs. Or....the tests weren't done at all.

Moderate means moderate dysplasia. It's not passing and will not get an OFA clearance number.

The only passing scores are Excellent, Good and Fair. They all mean no dysplasia.


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## Swampcollie

pugmomwantsgolden said:


> I wonder why the breeder wouldnt post the moderate because moderate is passing, correct?


Moderate is NOT passing. Only grades of Fair, Good or Excellent are passing.


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## JensDreamboy

Oops sorry, I was thinking of Fair


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## cubbysan

My vet did not even like the idea that Brady had one parent that was Fair. She thought that was too risky.


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## Ash

I think they are reputable as long as they are not lying to say it passed or breeding it. Again, adhering to the code of ethics with honesty makes on repuatable.


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## Swampcollie

kwikrnu said:


> Is a breeder reputable if they do not submit negative info to offa? For example a breeder has a liter of pups. Two test good, two test fair and four test moderate.


 
First, dogs have to be at least two years old to do the evaluation for certification. For all practical purposes there are no breeders that retain entire litters for two years. Once a breeder sells a pup, control over the animal transfers to the new Owner. That owner may choose to have their dog examined later (unlikely), or they may not. Any/all information about the dog is controlled by the Owner, not the Breeder. 

I like most Breeders would love to be able to have every pup I've ever produced evaluated, but that is beyond my control. I have to hope that Owners will do the evaluations and release the results, but I can't make them do it. It's their dog, their money and their decision to make.


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## Ash

Sorry, I don't know why I was just thinking puppy the Breeder owns. Swampcollie is right very rarely will almost the whole litter have the 4 clearences done.


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## jason0618

I may be showing my newness here, but it would seem to me that being reputable just includes being as honest with your clientele as possible. Not everyone who wants to add a GR to their home can afford one of the "perfect" dogs for $2000, but are much more readily able to spend the $500-600 that a lesser dog will provide. It's still a healthy dog, though. Even BYB's can be reputable, in my opinion. 
Flame on.


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## arcane

kwikrnu said:


> Is a breeder reputable if they do not submit negative info to offa?
> 
> I offer ALL inquiries/puppy buyers hard copies of clearances on all my dogs, whether I enter the data/send to OFA does not make me reputable or not...honesty,integrity,after sale support for the life of each and every dog/pup sold here does....plain and simple


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## monomer

The whole hypothetical is a little strange... (one of the reasons has already been pointed out, as for the other...) I thought OFA cert was for breeding dogs, as some measure to evaluate the hereditary probabilities of CHD in the offspring. Why would some one bother to submit radiographs and pay the fee if the results are obvious of CHD in the radiograph? The ethical thing to do is NOT breed the dog. Also you can't get a rating without submission, right?


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## AquaClaraCanines

Honestly to me is a basic requirement. If you don't do clearances, or had an accidental litter before they were done, or whatever, at the VERY least be HONEST about it.

To me, though, if my dog failed OFA I would publish it. Why would anyone not?


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## AquaClaraCanines

Well, Old Man some dogs fail... that appeared normal outwardly... and those results the breeder/owner can opt NOT to have published. To me that is shady. I would publish them.


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## Swampcollie

AquaClaraCanines said:


> To me, though, if my dog failed OFA I would publish it. Why would anyone not?


The majority of dogs are not in the hands of a breeder. If an owner X-rays their dog and it's obviously dysplastic, they have no motivating reason to spend the additional dollars required to submit the films to OFA. They have no intention to breed, and they have the information they needed about the condition of their own dog. From their viewpoint, they would be spending their own hard earned money and not reaping any direct benefit for doing so. The information may benefit the Breeder or the breed in general, but it does nothing directly for them. 

-


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## AquaClaraCanines

I agree with that. I wouldn't submit films to OFA if the dog was clearly dysplastic either. But a questionable one that flunked (and the flunking was a surprise) when sent to OFA, I would not tell them not to publish.


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## Pointgold

monomer said:


> The whole hypothetical is a little strange... (one of the reasons has already been pointed out, as for the other...) I thought OFA cert was for breeding dogs, as some measure to evaluate the hereditary probabilities of CHD in the offspring. Why would some one bother to submit radiographs and pay the fee if the results are obvious of CHD in the radiograph? The ethical thing to do is NOT breed the dog. Also you can't get a rating without submission, right?


As a responsible breeder, I will ask that ALL results are published, because if one is looking at vertical pedigrees when breeding, it would need to be seen that a sibling of a particular dog in a litter did NOT clear. Otherwise, a decision being made to breed to a particular dog cannot be made accurately. Submitting the rads, and paying the fee, clear or not, is what a responsible, reputable breeder does. It's not inexpensive to do it right. 
On the other hand, if a hip or elbow clearance is not listed in the OFA database, but cardiac and thyroid are, and the dog is 2 yrs or older, I believe that it is safe to assume that it either was not done, or failed. Yet, some breeders insist that they were done but not sent in. Unless actually in that database, pass or fail, I believe nothing.

As for the OP of this thread, why do you even ask? You have shown nothing but disdain for reputable breeders. This can't possibly matter to you.


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## DelmarvaGold

Swampcollie said:


> The majority of dogs are not in the hands of a breeder. If an owner X-rays their dog and it's obviously dysplastic, they have no motivating reason to spend the additional dollars required to submit the films to OFA. They have no intention to breed, and they have the information they needed about the condition of their own dog. From their viewpoint, they would be spending their own hard earned money and not reaping any direct benefit for doing so. The information may benefit the Breeder or the breed in general, but it does nothing directly for them.
> 
> -


If any of my "pet" buyers had films taken and they were obviously dysplastic, I, as the breeder, would pay the fee to have them sent in and published. Now, before anyone says..."Yeah, right, you would want everyone to know"...take a look at Delmarva on OFA. I have and always will publish all results. It's important to have all results listed when doing research. I stepped into a big mess when I did that breeding because the breeders of the dogs behind the pedigree took the approach of "Don't tell if not asked"


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## Swampcollie

jason0618 said:


> I may be showing my newness here, but it would seem to me that being reputable just includes being as honest with your clientele as possible. Not everyone who wants to add a GR to their home can afford one of the "perfect" dogs for $2000, but are much more readily able to spend the $500-600 that a lesser dog will provide. It's still a healthy dog, though. Even BYB's can be reputable, in my opinion.
> Flame on.


Being a small breeder, does not make one a BYB. A BYB is a small breeder that does not follow the rules, has not done their homework, and quite simply doesn't know what they're doing. They just took two dogs of the same breed, put them together and hoped they got puppies.


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## DelmarvaGold

Pointgold said:


> As for the OP of this thread, why do you even ask? You have shown nothing but disdain for reputable breeders. This can't possibly matter to you.


My opinion about the OP is that he starts a thread he knows will ruffle feathers, then sits back and lets everyone argue among themselves. When things start to die down, he will reply just to stir the pot agian. I can only surmise that he leads a very boring and uneventful life. Pity....


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## cubbysan

DelmarvaGold said:


> My opinion about the OP is that he starts a thread he knows will ruffle feathers, then sits back and lets everyone argue among themselves. When things start to die down, he will reply just to stir the pot agian. I can only surmise that he leads a very boring and uneventful life. Pity....


I know of people that will purposely do such things just for their entertainment. They will say things even if they don't believe it themselves.


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## kwikrnu

monomer said:


> The whole hypothetical is a little strange... (one of the reasons has already been pointed out, as for the other...) I thought OFA cert was for breeding dogs, as some measure to evaluate the hereditary probabilities of CHD in the offspring. Why would some one bother to submit radiographs and pay the fee if the results are obvious of CHD in the radiograph? The ethical thing to do is NOT breed the dog. Also you can't get a rating without submission, right?


I'm pretty new to breeding dogs so feel free to correct me. When breeding dogs and choosing which dogs to mate one should look at a vertical pedigree and ofa evaluations. That will tell if the planned sire or dam has siblings who failed ofa if the tests were done. For example a planned ofa rated excellent sire was the ninth pup of a liter. The other eight were rated moderate. On the dams side she was rated excellent and the other pups in the liter she was born to were rated poor. 
You can see that those two were flukes and their offspring will probably not be all that great.

That is why I wonder if a breeder is considered reputable if they choose not to disclose less than favorable results to the public if they are evaluated by ofa or even if they know a dog is dysplastic and they choose not to have it xrayed and the results sent to ofa to document the condition. Isn't the whole purpose of offa to be a scientific study? I don't think I have seen a failed dog on their site which would lead me to believe that no one discloses the info to the public or there are no dysplastic dogs ever evaluated.


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## monomer

Pointgold said:


> As a responsible breeder, I will ask that ALL results are published, because if one is looking at vertical pedigrees when breeding, it would need to be seen that a sibling of a particular dog in a litter did NOT clear. Otherwise, a decision being made to breed to a particular dog cannot be made accurately...


I've got to question the true value in going through the large expense... though I concede there is some value, what about all the other dogs in the litter who are never bred? their hips and elbows are not radiographed, rated, and enter into the OFA database, even though it could maybe turn out to be valuable information. I would think something like K9data or such would probably be more appropriate for trying to keep track of health histories and instead use the OFA as a puppy buyer's tool to research the dam and sire for clearances and ratings of specific litters of their interest (thereby creating a real incentive for breeders to begin acknowledging and caring about such health issues). Its a nice thought that all breeders SHOULD radiograph all offspring/siblings (two years later) and submit w/ all fees paid to OFA but I would think it rather unrealistic to expect and would not fault a breeder for not doing so... I don't believe that is an ethical breech for any breeder but merely a practical business decision.

EDIT: kwikrnu... please see the above in response to your most recent posting as well...


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## AquaClaraCanines

I think it depends who you ask. Some would say no, some would say it's okay to not pay the money to send in a clearly dysplastic X ray. But it's a good question


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## kwikrnu

DelmarvaGold said:


> My opinion about the OP is that he starts a thread he knows will ruffle feathers, then sits back and lets everyone argue among themselves. When things start to die down, he will reply just to stir the pot agian. I can only surmise that he leads a very boring and uneventful life. Pity....


Is the topic not a valid one? If you know a dog of yours has a condition do you document it with ofa and check the box to release the info to the public?


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## Ash

Have any of you ever tried the site OHR Home Page in goes into further detail about health issues I have my dogs there but I wish more people would enter theres?? I think it is done by similar people as K9data.


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## Ash

kwikrnu said:


> Is the topic not a valid one? If you know a dog of yours has a condition do you document it with ofa and check the box to release the info to the public?


Search "Delmarva" under OFA.


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## DelmarvaGold

kwikrnu said:


> Is the topic not a valid one? If you know a dog of yours has a condition do you document it with ofa and check the box to release the info to the public?



duh....did you not read ALL the posts??? I just said if you go to OFA and type in Delmarva (my kennel name) you will find dogs that have not passed. 

In reading your posts, you first say you don't breed, then you say you are somewhat new to breeding. Which is it?


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## kwikrnu

Ash said:


> Search "Delmarva" under OFA.


I picked the first dog under the search for delmarva, heart act to follow.

I look at the page with clearances and there are three of the offspring listed which were evaluated negatively. I think that is the first I've seen in my limited looking at the offa site. But according to the akc registration there were at least 12 offspring(probably more, but all I can go by is the 1,5,5,and 1). The results are there for four and 75% of them have a condition. What were the results for the others? Is it known if they are dysplastic or have another condition? It looks like none of them are being bred, but what about breeders who would not disclose the three who had a condition and would breed the one who didn't. Are those breeders reputable?

Maybe I am looking at the ofa incorrectly. If I am please correct me.


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## Swampcollie

kwikrnu said:


> Isn't the whole purpose of offa to be a scientific study?


NO!
The purpose of OFA Certification Exams is to give the breeder more information with which to make breeding decisions. I.E. it gives them a tool with which they can if necessary remove dogs with an abnormal hip conformation from the breeding gene pool. 



kwikrnu said:


> I don't think I have seen a failed dog on their site which would lead me to believe that no one discloses the info to the public or there are no dysplastic dogs ever evaluated.


There are numerous dogs listed with failing scores in the OFA database, although not so many as to reflect an accurate representation as to how many dog in a given breed fail.


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## AquaClaraCanines

kwik, 

that's were it becomes a matter of opinion. Without knowing any other info, my react would be breeding one healthy one that had three dysplastic sibling would not be something I'd support personally.


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## monomer

The last time I looked (about a year ago) I believe it was around 20% of the Golden radiographs submitted were found to be dysplastic... it is estimated that the 'true' number of dysplastic Goldens is therefore quite a bit higher... often 'guess'timated to be something over 50% in the breed as a whole.


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## Ash

If she had more in the litter then listed and 4 on OFA came back with defects then yes it is possible the others may have problems and may not have problems. We don't know the results for the other. Please go and read my reply on the Reading OFA numbers I have explained to you there. That will hopefully help you understand this.

I have made a search for you on abnormal hips and elbows (not all the types of elbows). Go through these it should keep you busy for a while. OFA: Search Results


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## DelmarvaGold

kwikrnu said:


> I picked the first dog under the search for delmarva, heart act to follow.
> 
> I look at the page with clearances and there are three of the offspring listed which were evaluated negatively. I think that is the first I've seen in my limited looking at the offa site. But according to the akc registration there were at least 12 offspring(probably more, but all I can go by is the 1,5,5,and 1). The results are there for four and 75% of them have a condition. What were the results for the others? Is it known if they are dysplastic or have another condition? It looks like none of them are being bred, but what about breeders who would not disclose the three who had a condition and would breed the one who didn't. Are those breeders reputable?
> 
> Maybe I am looking at the ofa incorrectly. If I am please correct me.


First of all those are the only dogs that have been tested so far. SHe has at least 2 others that I know of who will have films taken. Second, the boy who had a PRELIM of mild is going to have his films taken the first of the year. He has been neutered but I do not and never will believe he has hip problems. The boy who has moerate...yes, I saw those films with my own eyes and yes, his one hip was very bad. The boy who "supposedly" had DJD II on his elbows is also having his resubmitted. I do not believe a dog who field trains several times a week, and is extremely active has elbow issues. Elbows is one area that OFA is NOT that reliable.

Now, out of the other puppies that went to pet homes, I have had one say their boy bunny hopped and their Vet said he was dysplastic. I told them to submit the film (which they had already had taken) to OFA for evaluation. So far they have not done so and I really do not think that there is a problem.

I have always been extrememly honest about my breeding program. If a potential buyer does not like what I tell them, then they have the right to purchase their puppy elsewhere.


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## Pointgold

monomer said:


> The last time I looked (about a year ago) I believe it was around 20% of the Golden radiographs submitted were found to be dysplastic... it is estimated that the 'true' number of dysplastic Goldens is therefore quite a bit higher... often 'guess'timated to be something over 50% in the breed as a whole.


 
I posted the latest statistics recently in one of your Puppy Buyer Fact Checker threads, I believe.


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## kwikrnu

If I were looking for a problem free dog could I assume that a breeder who had all positive evaluations would be a better choice than a breeder who had negatives and positive evaluations on their breeding stock listed on the offa site?


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## kwikrnu

DelmarvaGold said:


> I have always been extrememly honest about my breeding program. If a potential buyer does not like what I tell them, then they have the right to purchase their puppy elsewhere.


I have no idea who you are, but the fact that you released the negs to the public says a lot.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Kwik that depends on whether or not the ones with no failures listed literally had no failures or just didn't list them. However, I feel it is the rare breeder indeed who has NEVER produced ONE dog with SOME problem, listed or not.


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## kwikrnu

Ash said:


> I have made a search for you on abnormal hips and elbows (not all the types of elbows). Go through these it should keep you busy for a while. OFA: Search Results


I think I made an easier search comparison.

passing hip evaluations for goldens, 16613
non-passing hips, 752

I really didn't notice the search features before. Just by looking at that data one would think that goldens had a very low rate of hip problems.


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## Ash

Those are the breeder that have allowed defects to be posted. They do exist.


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## Pointgold

I bred a very nice litter, out of AmCan Ch Halltree Lyric Moment, CD, OD, CGC,TDI bred to Am Can Ch Birnam Wood's Ultimate Rush CD,WC,CGC,TDI. I kept a lovely boy, and his sister. Nitelite's Buy Low Sell High was doing very nicely in the rings, placing well in Specialties. Canadian breeder had a bitch that she was planning to breed for the last time, and wanted to use Broker. He was only 17 mos when she inquired, and I agreed to let him be used (he would be around 20-22 mos when her bitch would be bred) if his prelims were okay. They were. The breeding was made when Broker was 20 mos old. Between the time that the prelim was done and we did the actual radiograph for certification, Broker slid while coming down the hill and crashed into the upright 4x4 pole at the corner of roof covering my runs, hitting it with his rear. The injury really messed him up, and he did not clear. I knew this was due to an injury, and thazt there was a clear history behind him, as well as his siblings (one Fair sister) I neutered him. Many breeders questioned my doing this, as from that one litter he produced well, including :Pedigree: Am CanCH Margelan's No Surrender CGC, Therapy Dog
But, I could not, and would not, use him without and OFA number.


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## kwikrnu

Ash said:


> Those are the breeders who have allowed defects to be posted. They do exist.


Could they also be displeased owners?


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## kwikrnu

Pointgold said:


> I could not, and would not, use him without and OFA number.


That makes sense. The dog would always be the questionable one in the pedigree.


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## Ash

They could be. More likely they are honest breeders and owners.


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## telsmith1

I initial the line on the applications to release ALL results, no matter if it be passing or failing. IMHO a good breeder will post all results.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

So, breeding a dog a few months shy of his second birthday on prelims is okay? I know it's been done before.


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## cubbysan

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Kwik that depends on whether or not the ones with no failures listed literally had no failures or just didn't list them. However, I feel it is the rare breeder indeed who has NEVER produced ONE dog with SOME problem, listed or not.


 
I once read someplace that if a breeder states that they have never had any known problems in their lines, to turn away. Every line will have some type of problem.

There is a young dog on ChatEvo that has had hip problems since it was a puppy. The mother scored good on her PennHip and the father is a big Champion stud dog here, I am sure you breeders have all heard of him, and the puppy has HD. I know the father passed his OFA hips to, but I can't remember if he was GOOD, I'll look it up. So anything can happen.


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## Phoebe

According to the information below, not all hip dysplasia is due to genetics.

Most of the blame has been placed on genetics, however, it does not have a simple mode of inheritance. Most research indicates that it is "polygenic", that is, there are a number of genes that combine to result in dysplasia, as well as multi-factorial meaning that there are non-genetic factors including nutrition and environment that factor in. Add to this growing evidence that it is a systemic disease not limited to just the hip joints. This makes the task of planing a breeding to eliminate it almost impossible. Even when the parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc. show no signs of dysplasia, the offspring can still show up with it. We have seen two OFA Excellent dogs with many generations of clearances behind them produce dysplastic puppies. So even under the best of conditions there are no absolute guarantees against dysplasia, however conscientious breeders will screen their dogs hips through OFA or PennHip for dysplasia to minimize the risks and breed only animals that have been found free of dysplasia.

How an individual animal will respond to being dysplastic and whether you can tell by watching the animal varies greatly. Some animals show great discomfort with only a mild case of dysplasia while others that are severely dysplastic can get around with little or no obvious discomfort. 

However, your best defence is a good offense and you want to avoid having a dysplastic pet in the first place. There is a lot of controversy as to how much of Hip Dysplasia is genetic and how much is environmental. Both play a part. Because of this, we would like to inform you of some of the things you can do which may help your puppy to live a long and happy life. 

A puppy requires a moderate amount of exercise to help maintain muscle tone and minimize laxity in the growing joint. The puppy shouldn't be exercised to the point of exhaustion. Long walks are excellent, jogging is also great but should not be done with very young puppies. If you jog you should start the dog out slowly, gradually increasing the distance traveled, but 2-3 miles a day is probably a maximum, and jogging should not be started with your dog until it is over a year of age. Also the dog should not be jogging on hard surfaces such as concrete or asphalt as these can injure the pads of their feet. If the dog is allowed to become overweight it will place unnecessary strain on the hips as well as the heart and spine. For most breeds in order to tell if the dog is overweight you should feel its ribs. You should be able to feel the ribs just below the skin. If you have to dig for them, the dog is overweight. If you can not feel them at all, the dog is obese. On the other hand, you should not be able to see the ribs just by looking. If the dog is fat, the best way to reduce its weight is to feed it less until you can feel ribs again. A word of warning, most dogs have big sad brown eyes which they use to great advantage when they are hungry. For your dog's sake, learn to ignore them. 

A problem during puppyhood is overfeeding a puppy so that it grows too quickly. This results in strain to the skeletal system as it tries to grow too fast. Unfortunately, when a puppy overeats it does not always get fat. What often happens is that the pup will stay skinny but will sprout like a bean. This is a little harder to watch for than checking the weight of an adult dog.

The effects of nutrition on hip dysplasia cannot be overlooked. We have seen a report of a study done on Labradors comparing feeding puppies as much as it desires and dogs on a more restricted caloric intake. When the hip conformations we evaluated at regular intervals it showed that at every stage the puppies given more food were more prone to hip dysplasia.

Calcium and vitamin supplements should not be given to a puppy or an adult. Instead, a good quality food should be used. Until the pup is four or five months of age, you should feed it a puppy food. After that, use a food with an adult or "maintenance" formulation. The puppy food will give him all the calcium he needs to grow and the adult formula will have enough for good health. As the dog grows older, you may want to consider a "senior" dog food to match the dog's changing nutritional needs. 

Many people have taken up feeding raw diets in an effort to help their dogs live healthier lives. The reasoning behind the diets is that they better approximate how a dog would eat in the wild and how the dogs ancestors would have eaten. Wild dogs will eat raw meat as well as the animals bones. These foods contain potentially vital ingredients that are destroyed during the manufacturing process in making commercial dog foods. We will provide links below to sites on feeding raw diets so that you can educate yourself on the various options and decide what is best for you and your dog. Many dog foods are now including ingredients to help with joint growth. Only time will tell if this reduces the incidence of the disease.

The dog's hips and shoulders can be injured by rough treatment. NEVER drag a dog around by the back legs. NEVER pick up a puppy by the front legs or with one hand under each arm. Dogs do not have collarbones as people do. Picking a puppy up by the forelegs can strain the muscles and ligaments. The proper way to pick up a puppy is with one hand under the chest and the other hand supporting the rear end. This will not injure the pup and he will not be able to wriggle out of your grasp.

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## Jazzys Mom

cubbysan said:


> *I once read someplace that if a breeder states that they have never had any known problems in their lines, to turn away. Every line will have some type of problem*.
> 
> There is a young dog on ChatEvo that has had hip problems since it was a puppy. The mother scored good on her PennHip and the father is a big Champion stud dog here, I am sure you breeders have all heard of him, and the puppy has HD. I know the father passed his OFA hips to, but I can't remember if he was GOOD, I'll look it up. So anything can happen.


The breeder that Flirt came from told me that they had NEVER had any cancer in their lines at all. Flirt died at 4 1/2 from Lymphoma and Dakota had a malignant mast cell tumor removed from the side of his face. Wonder if she is still telling people that!

Jazzys Mom


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## Pointgold

kwikrnu said:


> If I were looking for a problem free dog could I assume that a breeder who had all positive evaluations would be a better choice than a breeder who had negatives and positive evaluations on their breeding stock listed on the offa site?


You cannot assume anything, particularly if you do not believe that one needs to know the breeder.


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## Pointgold

Kimm said:


> So, breeding a dog a few months shy of his second birthday on prelims is okay? I know it's been done before.


It is done, with some frequency. For me, the prelims would have to have been done no earlier than 6 months before the dog turns two. I do not personally agree with doing prelims at six months of age and then breeding him on those when the dog is 20 months or so old. And the cicumstances would have to be extenuating, such as the last breeding of the bitch...


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## monomer

kwikrnu said:


> I think I made an easier search comparison.
> 
> passing hip evaluations for goldens, 16613
> non-passing hips, 752
> 
> I really didn't notice the search features before. Just by looking at that data one would think that goldens had a very low rate of hip problems.


I'm not sure what you are referring to but go here if you'd like to see the ranking of our breed for percent dysplastic according to the OFA database... the Golden Retriever is listed as #31 with a percentage of 20.1% found to be dysplastic. Keep in mind the most obvious cases of CHD are never even submitted to the OFA and some never even get radiographed... so the 'true' percent dysplastic in the breed is surely much higher than 20.1%. However, as Jan pointed out in her quoted source... many dogs who are radiographed as dysplastic never show any outward signs or suffer pain because of it. I have my own suspicions and theories as to why this is but I will leave that for another thread at another time.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

Pointgold said:


> It is done, with some frequency. For me, the prelims would have to have been done no earlier than 6 months before the dog turns two. I do not personally agree with doing prelims at six months of age and then breeding him on those when the dog is 20 months or so old. And the cicumstances would have to be extenuating, such as the last breeding of the bitch...


Thank you, I've often wondered how breeders felt about this. As you know ******** sire (I love that dog, Tucker and his sire) sired at least one litter before the age of two. At least I think he did. I was searching for info on him and happened upon a "breeder" forum where they were discussing the topic. I found their comments interesting.


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## kwikrnu

monomer said:


> I'm not sure what you are referring to but go here if you'd like to see the ranking of our breed for percent dysplastic according to the OFA database... the Golden Retriever is listed as #31 with a percentage of 20.1% found to be dysplastic. Keep in mind the most obvious cases of CHD are never even submitted to the OFA and some never even get radiographed... so the 'true' percent dysplastic in the breed is surely much higher than 20.1%. However, as Jan pointed out in her quoted source... many dogs who are radiographed as dysplastic never show any outward signs or suffer pain because of it. I have my own suspicions and theories as to why this is but I will leave that for another thread at another time.


The figures I posted, with hyperlinks to the search, are how many golden retrievers on the offa site that have some type of evaluation of their hips I think in the last 5 years the negative rate was 4%. Below are all of the numbers for hip evaluations not including preliminary.

*Total golden evaluations 91,612. *

Goldens listed that passed evaluations 90,702.

Goldens that did not pass the evaluation 910.

How does offa get the 20%? Do they include dogs whose owners decided to not make the info public? The numbers above indicate about 1%.

Offa is pretty much worthless for pedigree research if only passed dogs are submitted for public view.


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## Phoebe

MY POST IS NOT DIRECTED AT KWIKRNU. I'm not sure about the golden retriever community because it is much bigger than the cairn terrier community where I know more breeders, but the cairn breeding community is rather small. It wouldn't matter whether or not a data base had offspring health issues listed or not, if the breeder is breeding dogs with a genetic problem, other breeders know about, don't want to participate with any breeding with that breeder and if your really researching, you are going to hear about it from somebody. Nobody wants to have their dogs mentioned with any of those dogs with questionable genetic problems. I find that breeders (at least reputable cairn breeders) tend to police their own and if you are not following the rules, your reputation can be easily damaged.

The data base is a very useful tool, especially for breeders who know what they are doing. I think the average pet owner doesn't understand everything that goes into planning a litter based simly on OFA data. It's nice for a potential purchaser to see if the breeder is doing clearances, but I don't think there is so much more involved than just looking at a data base. 

IMHO, it is extremely important that you trust the person you are purchasing from. While checking the database is helpful, it still doesn't completely guarantee that your puppy won't have cancer, allergies, epilepsy, dysplasia, heart condition, etc. Finding the breeder that is right for you takes a lot of work and it is worth the time and the effort and the extra money it may cost you. If you have a breeder that gets upset with your questions, find somebody else. You want a breeder that will stand by you if something goes wrong and if anything doesn't feel right to you, move on. You need to be able to communicate with your breeder and feel confident that they care about their puppies and will be there for you after your puppy is home.

Whether or not offspring is listed on the database, I would not use that as the determining factor as to whether the breeder is reputable. I also wouldn't use that as an excuse to disclude the information that is on the data base. If somebody is looking for justification that clearances aren't necessary in order to breed, than I would strongly disagree. The truth is, clearances, no clearances, anything can happen when breeding. Personally, I would always put my money with somebody that is at least trying their hardest to produce healthy lines.

We have that puppy fact checker list...it is an excellent source of information and we should remember to remind new members who are looking for puppies to check that out. 

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## 3 goldens

Flukes happen. There wa no history of knee problems in KayCee's family background, yet she had to have both knees operated on for luxating pat4lla. My vet even said it was a fluke. Where her litter mate hunter's teeth were still as clean and white when he died at 4 years, 2 months ( for any that don't know, he was killed by the 6 month heartworm preventative injection, ProHeart6) as the day they came in. Yet kayCee had to have her's cleaned when she had her first knee surgery at 16 momnths. Different mouth chemistry my vet said. She has had seveal different problems, including a sevre reaction to her 2ed set of annuals. She is just a "fluke dog' and it was a fluke we got her. We wre only going to take Huner, but fell in love with her and even tho we couldn't afford her, we also purched her. hubby has always said God kne she was in for problems and that we would take care of her no matter what, and we have.


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## vrocco1

3 goldens said:


> Flukes happen. There wa no history of knee problems in KayCee's family background, yet she had to have both knees operated on for luxating pat4lla. My vet even said it was a fluke. Where her litter mate hunter's teeth were still as clean and white when he died at 4 years, 2 months ( for any that don't know, he was killed by the 6 month heartworm preventative injection, ProHeart6) as the day they came in. Yet kayCee had to have her's cleaned when she had her first knee surgery at 16 momnths. Different mouth chemistry my vet said. She has had seveal different problems, including a sevre reaction to her 2ed set of annuals. She is just a "fluke dog' and it was a fluke we got her. We wre only going to take Huner, but fell in love with her and even tho we couldn't afford her, we also purched her. hubby has always said God kne she was in for problems and that we would take care of her no matter what, and we have.


This is also not directed at kwikrnu, and I've said this before. When you mix DNA, the possible results are infinite in number. Anyone who has a basic understanding of math understands that only a far greater force (our maker, whoever you believe that might be) then us can predict what the end result will be.


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## Phoebe

There just are no 100% gaurantees for anything. I have to say, my elkhound was a mill dog, bought at a pet store (I loved her to pieces, but I regret what I condemned her parents to and I hate I helped support a miller which is why I rescue now), never a sick day in her life. Even my first golden, Lucy, (my brother-in-law bought at a pet store despite my warnings, he later gave her to me) was a very healthy golden. She died of cancer at 13 and had seizures later in life, but neither of those is necessarily due to genetics as outside factors could have been involved. My two cairns have been extremely healthy so far...but I will have to have to knock on wood for that, and my golden, Phoebe, I researched breeders and felt very confident with the breeder I chose, but it appears she may have allergies. I'm hoping probiotics will solve this, but only time will tell. 

It is entirely up to the person purchasing the puppy to decide what kind of breeder they are comfortable with. My rant was only with regard to anyone that might be researching breeders in hopes of purchasing a puppy. Even if one chooses a backyard breeder, I would hope that they feel confident with the person they are purchasing their puppy from. 

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## kwikrnu

So this is what I am understanding from the discussion. A breeder might be reputable if they list any information on offa. If they don't list negative info on offa along with the good they are not to be trusted.


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## Swampcollie

kwikrnu said:


> So this is what I am understanding from the discussion. A breeder might be reputable if they list any information on offa. If they don't list negative info on offa along with the good they are not to be trusted.


As the old saying goes "It Depends".

There are so many variables involved that you have to evaluate each breeder on a case by case basis. You will encounter many small volume breeders who have never had a dog they produced fail OFA. But you also have to consider that they may have only produced one or two litters, so the odds have been in their favor. They just haven't produced enough pups yet to have a clinker or two materialize. 

There really isn't enough information in the OFA database alone to make a determination of whether or not a breeder can be trusted. It may be part of the equation, but in the end there is a whole lot more to consider.

-


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## arcane

kwikrnu said:


> So this is what I am understanding from the discussion. A breeder might be reputable if they list any information on offa. If they don't list negative info on offa along with the good they are not to be trusted.


As I have said in a previous post...a breeders reputation is based on HONESTY, integrity, support, yadda yadda....what we do or do not post on the OFA site is of little importance in the large scheme of things...as an example, I do OVC clearances on alot of my dogs vs OFA so those dogs don't have an OFA clearance but they do have a OVC clearance ( Canadian Hip Registry ) I question whether there is an underlying problem with "breeders" in general and not what is or isn't listed by them


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## kwikrnu

I just saw this pdf on the offa site and it seems the guy who wrote it agrees that the vertical info is very important.


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