# March 2013 Field



## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Don't forget to Spring Forward! 
The days are getting longer now, more training time. What's everyone working on?


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

We need to finish FF on Valentino.
Amber will whelp in two weeks, so she is out of the game for awhile.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

we are impatiently awaiting the end of the snow/slush/mud/muck here. Soon, very soon....


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I wanted to get back into Bonnie's handling refresher work, but that last storm dumped freezing rain in with the snow, so we currently have an ice-pack rather than a snow pack, that needs to melt before we can safely work. Training partner was out scouting fields though yesterday!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

we seriously have ankle deep mud here. The 9 inches of snow we got on Tuesday has melted, and it's pouring rain. It's just a gawdawful mess. Supposed to rain all day today, and again Thurs-Fri-Sat. 
Ah, Spring. Beats winter, though, that's for sure!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I am dreading the mud...24 paws worth of it....


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Honestly feeling kind of bummed lately. We have very limited tests here. Used to have four Juniors but they decided to combine one test and drop a Junior in favor of doing more Junior. I will be out of the country for that. The other two tests are next month and it has been too cold to get in the water. This week finally looks promising. We'll go for Junior but it won't be enough time for water training for me to think about Senior. (I think she can do land, but not sure about water).

Then I am taking a lot of time off for work this year. Ok, yes I get to go to Africa and get married so that is all awesome but between that and traveling I don't know that I will be able to travel for any tests away from home. So yeah, super bummed about that part. (It's in my plan to move from here in a few years to somewhere that has more dog opportunities close by).

We trained a couple weeks ago with a couple of field trial people. The first several feet to the line was muddy. I seriously considered carrying her to the line so I would not have to bathe her when I got home--but I chickened out! So brought home a muddy dog who immediately got rinsed. Scout did well on all of the marks but the last one. The last one was 250+ yards and we just never train that distance. She was tired from all of the previous marks plus it was windy and you could hardly hear or see the marks. We had a rough go on some of the blinds they set-up. The first few were ok, but the last one was really rough. I had to direct her around some white stickmen and she got suctioned in then frustrated and did not want to take direction. I stuck it out and got her there, but it was ugly.

Going to start hitting the water hard this week. I took her for a trail run in the foothills yesterday and she found both iced over mud puddles and when we got to the creek she splashed around the entire way. So, it is above freezing at night and the sum of the temps are now above 100 and the dog is voluntarily getting in water. Now I feel like I can fairly enforce a standard if needed.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

So, the singles really are paying off. A couple of weeks ago I was training with the guys and the set up was big technical singles. A couple dogs ran before and did an OK job. Winter and I step to the line and she steps on all but one of them. Cover, no problem, in and out of a small valley then across a road, bring it on, down the valley with multiple pitches, piece of cake. She made me look like a brilliant trainer. The only one she didn't nail was long inward throw that disappeared behind a small hill. She put up a nice tight hunt and came up with it pretty quick as a posed to a crazy huge hunt that she had been putting up on those inward marks. It was so nice to see training pay off.
Things to work on, land blinds that angle into or parallel a brush/tree line and water blind concepts. We have occasional days here that it is warm enough (air temp) to get in some quick water work. The water is still cold and will be for quite a while.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Today is supposed to be the coldest day this week with high fifties. So--water time. I took her to the park with a small pond and threw some marks. I was very happy. No hesitation, although there was some whimpering on the line while I walked around the pond to throw the marks. I did throw one angle mark and she did think about cheating to the bank early so I told her 'no' and cast her over more before giving her permission to exit and get the mark. I repeated the mark and she didn't think about coming out early that time  I am making a list of all the ponds I know and we are going to visit all of them this next month.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Today is supposed to be the coldest day this week with high fifties. So--water time. I took her to the park with a small pond and threw some marks. I was very happy. No hesitation, although there was some whimpering on the line while I walked around the pond to throw the marks. I did throw one angle mark and she did think about cheating to the bank early so I told her 'no' and cast her over more before giving her permission to exit and get the mark. I repeated the mark and she didn't think about coming out early that time  I am making a list of all the ponds I know and we are going to visit all of them this next month.


If you do find the time to travel to a test there is a double Junior, double Senior in Eastern Wa. the first week-end in June.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

hollyk said:


> If you do find the time to travel to a test there is a double Junior, double Senior in Eastern Wa. the first week-end in June.


Oh I wish but I will be gone for most of June. Africa is calling!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Oh I wish but I will be gone for most of June. Africa is calling!


Africa sounds lot more fun.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Took Scout training this afternoon. I only threw one mark and she came hobbling back with a fish hook in her paw. Not happy  She's got determination though because it didn't stop her from getting the mark and bringing it back 3-legged. Had to carry the wet dog across the park then chastise her at every stop light so that she didn't try to pull out the hook herself. It was a three-pronged hook and they ended up sedating her to get it out. I was worried this would side curb us with tests around the corner but surprisingly the vet said after a few days she is clear to get in mucky pond water again!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

GoldenSail, you're getting married? Congratulations!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

My car is in the shop so I took Buffy for a mile walk down to the baseball field and did some basic stuff. 

We had a continental shoot a week ago and have one more for the season.

There is a handler's shoot on Monday to which I am looking forward.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Riot and I field trained Tuesday with our "ladies training group." Riot did well, better than last week. The other dogs got some water marks, but we kept Riot on land because we don't want him to get into the habit of cheating. Sometimes I feel like he marks well but then doubts himself and hunts around for a bit before going back to where he thought the mark was and picks it up. I know I can't expect him to pin every mark, and I also remind myself that he is running marks that have been set up for experienced field trial dogs. These are not easy marks. And at one point, we stepped up for the long mark and someone asked if I should move him up. My friend said "no, he can get out there," and he did! So I was pleased with him. Another woman joined our group with her young golden bitch, a Gaylan dog. She is just starting to get bumpers thrown by the gunners, so it was fun to see her getting into the game. It is also nice to no longer have the least experienced dog in the group 

We also got an assignment on some yard work, which we really need to get moving on. Not that we will be running blinds anytime soon, but we are way ahead on marking concepts vs. blinds. Mainly because I have no experience training yard work. Now I have some guidance, thankfully.

Next week, Pat Burns is coming down to train on Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday. Of course, I have to work Sunday night, but Riot and I will be ready to train all day Tuesday. Can't wait!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Rose was finally released from "house arrest". Thank you Sterregoldens for the chlorophyll trick. No strange dogs in the yard but she was literally kept to only short potty walks. She is a bit crazy with energy now so we are resuming walks and physical endurance exercises. 
We took this time to work on holding the bumper and heeling with the bumper all over the house. She has been carrying the bumper outside too, heeling on the leash to go potty.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

To test or not to test???

There is a MH test in early May that's 20 minutes from my house.
It's sponsored by Golden Retriever Club of Illinois.

I'm trying to decide whether or not to enter Tito. The distance, and sponsoring club, make me more likely to enter. 

BUT we've only trained once in the past 8 weeks. We haven't been in the water in about 5 months now. 

So part of me says go ahead and enter him, just to see where he's at. Tito isn't likely to become test-wise at this point from one test. 

The other part of me says don't enter him until you are 110% sure he can pass.

When we were entering the SH tests, Dan said he'd give him a 50-50 chance of passing, but Tito pretty much slammed the tests. He seems to do much better in tests than in training. 

Thoughts?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I wouldn't second guess my pro.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

There's a lot of time between now and May so if you get on top of training you will have plenty of time to decide if you are ready for it or not. Personally, I would have a hard time not attending a test so close to home unless I was concerned that it could create a problem. I assume your tests are like the ones around here? You can enter as late as two weeks before?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Master is WAY more complex than SH. I took a season to refine Breeze's skills before I ran her in Master. The positioning of the blinds makes them far more complex and multifactored, and then they are judged to a higher standard as well. Judges will set series up overlapping each other so you have to deal with far more scent and conflicting information.

If you are entering Master HOPING he will pass, rather than CONFIDENT he will pass, then he is not ready. I have not been training much either, and Breeze will not be going in the early MH tests here, and she is a dog with a MH title. I am aiming at midsummer for her.You do not want to enter and have him look unwilling or uncertain. Sad to say but people do start to talk about dogs as if they are bad workers, when the problem may really be that they are underprepared for what they are being asked to do. Tito is a dog who has the potential to do this well, so I would want to go and smack the test and impress everyone, not squeak by on a hope and a prayer.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Great advice Shelly, thanks. I think unless he really shows me a whole new side when we go back to training, I need to wait.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

We had a great time with the puppy group this morning. It was -6F and the sun was coming up when we got up. So we had a nice big breakfast and headed out. It was a spectacular sunny Alaskan morning. We had a nice group of goldens with one black lab. We were down at Potter Marsh. The conditions were perfect. Not too much snow and plenty of cover to make things interesting.
We started out with bumper doubles. Lucy was not interested and said, where's the birds? She was super excited and wouldn't settle. She's 9 months old. Her sister and brother did great, but Lucy really had a mind of her own. My boy Reilly was wonderful. He acted like he'd been running doubles for years. 2 weeks ago he ignored the bumpers and only wanted birds. Today he was willing to work.
Then we switched to birds. We had gotten a bunch of dead pigeons from the airport, so we had plenty to throw. Our ducks are getting a bit beat up. Lucy and Reilly were excellent. I was so happy they did long marks with lots of cover. They were steady and didn't break. I was worried that Lucy would continue to go around the cover, but she went straight through. Reilly I wish I had started years ago. But you all were right, you CAN start an older dog.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

Training group is starting again and our retriever club training starts next week.
We'll do singles to get Gladys going again. 
She's back in field class working on handling drills, L/R back, angle back, pick up, run by.
I take her out when I can for walking baseball.

DeeDee's in STAR puppy, doing the puppy bumper in the hallway, goes to group and does puppy bumpers on the long line.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I'll be missing this next weekend to take Lucy to her first conformation showing. It's a bit frustrating to get rid of her collar neck. We just started e-collar training and now I'm fighting the effects on her coat for showing. How do you all do it, showing and field work both? She's such a tom girl and not very prissy. At least its still frozen up here so she can't go swimming yet. We are thinking of a conformation show again at the end of May in Fairbanks. It will be hard to drive past all those lakes and rivers on our way to Fairbanks and not let her out to play with the boys so her coat stays nice. I'm kind of leaning to not showing her in conformation just so she can have fun without worrying about her coat. Any thoughts? Can you do both? Or do you only show conformation in the winter?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I do both, and yeah, sometimes I lose some coat, but don't find it a big deal. My dogs do not wear collars at home (both for the ring-around-the-neck effect, and for safety with 6 dogs playing together) but I do leave the ecollar on when we are getting ready to do collar conditioning. Generally, my guys are at a developmental stage where they are not looking too together when I do CC, so it does not end up being an issue.

I would continue with you collar work since you have started the introduction process. Better to get the foundations in when they are young. I would not worry too much about the collar bump right now--generally puppies do not get the points anyhow in Goldens since it is such a heavy competition breed, so I tend to look at it as experience when they are puppies.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I never worried about "collar neck". It never seemed to matter. I think a good judge sees it for what it is.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

I have a friend who ran her girl in Senior one day and showed her to RWB the next.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-hunt-field/100318-conformation-girl.html


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

One of the biggest hurdles in master is learning to be a coach to your dog, both on the field and off. You really have got to analyze the tests, watch every dog before you run, make decisions on what you will do before you ever step to the line. You have to be really critical and deliberate with your every move. You must know your dogs strengths, weaknesses and tendencies and how they will play into how you will run each series before you. Unlike junior where the dog does 100% of the work, or senior where tests are pretty consistent in their elements from day to day. "Anything goes" in master, you have to think on the fly. It's fun -- and terrifying! 
Having said all that, you will learn a lot running master. A lot more than sitting and watching. Maybe you can volunteer to be test dog? I would have a hard time not running in a test that is 20 minutes from my house. Then again, training even once a week is NOT ENOUGH for a master dog.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Anney, you pretty much summed up my feelings. 
I had thought about running test dog. But if he doesn't do well, I will be embarrassed. If he does REAL well, I'll be kicking myself for not entering. So maybe I'd best just not even do that.
I know you're right about training once a week....let alone once a month, which we've been lucky to hit lately.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Thanks Anney, you pretty much summed up my feelings.
> I had thought about running test dog. But if he doesn't do well, I will be embarrassed. If he does REAL well, I'll be kicking myself for not entering. So maybe I'd best just not even do that.
> I know you're right about training once a week....let alone once a month, which we've been lucky to hit lately.


Yeah, I know what you mean. Although if you loudly announce before you run test dog that this is your first time to the line and not to laugh, people are generally quite helpful and encouraging. 
Trust me, unless you are unpleasant to your dog (which I doubt would happen!) or your dog acts like he hates field work (which I also really doubt!), even if the dog really screws up, it will be OK. Lots of dogs screw up at Master, over 50% of them do at every test  I never remember someone else's dog who fails a test, I only remember if they were mean to their dog or if their dog acted like it hated it. 

On the flip side, if you do enter you might get lucky and have an easy test and/or lenient judges, where basically an "advanced Senior" level dog can do just fine. You never know what you're gonna get.

I know when I first ran Slater, he was NOT experienced at master concepts. BUT he was a great marker, and could run really precise blinds if I did my job and kept him on a tight rope. What I couldn't afford was to let himself dig into a hole, he didn't have the experience to recover from mistakes. My first few tests I had judges ask me "why'd you blow the whistle, he was on line?" and my answer was -- to keep control and to keep him from getting OFF line!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> I know when I first ran Slater, he was NOT experienced at master concepts. BUT he was a great marker, and could run really precise blinds if I did my job and kept him on a tight rope. What I couldn't afford was to let himself dig into a hole, he didn't have the experience to recover from mistakes. My first few tests I had judges ask me "why'd you blow the whistle, he was on line?" and my answer was -- to keep control and to keep him from getting OFF line!


This part is so key, Anney, and is why as an experienced Master handler you were able to do well in Master with a green dog--*you were proactive not reactive*. It's one thing I notice when judging--often the dogs who fail the test have not had handler intervention until they were already deep in trouble, because the handler did not recognize the hazards in the test, or assess their dog's weaknesses in relation to the test. And by the time the handler intervened they were too far gone to recover.

Barb I still stand by my earlier advice to wait until he and you are more solid, but who are the judges?


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> I know when I first ran Slater, he was NOT experienced at master concepts. BUT he was a great marker, and could run really precise blinds if I did my job and kept him on a tight rope. What I couldn't afford was to let himself dig into a hole, he didn't have the experience to recover from mistakes. My first few tests I had judges ask me "why'd you blow the whistle, he was on line?" and my answer was -- to keep control and to keep him from getting OFF line!


Yesterday I was talking to a training partner about that same idea. 
We both are taking our first dogs through Senior level and on to Master. We both often train with experienced handlers and run their set ups. We talked about having to get a lot better evaluating the set up and understanding the point of it. Taking the time to really watch other dogs run to see the pitfalls and what traps our dogs might fall into. Instead of reacting to a problem, to try and see the problem before it happens and keep them out of it all together.
We both feel we need to step up our game and be a much better partner before we can tackle the next level.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

When we ran the SH test at National I stopped Tito immediately on the memory bird and cast him over to it. (This was a bumper leg, he already had the SH anyway).
Mitch White asked me why I did it. The answer, to me, was simple. I saw him LOOK at the pond, which was very near the mark! When Tito LOOKS at the water, I *might* have a problem as he *might* take a very long route to the mark, having a little swim for himself on the way :doh:. Had it been a title run, I would have waited to see what he did. Since I had nothing at stake, I didn't want him to even think for a second that he could take the long way around.
Of course, Mitch probably thinks I'm a real whack job, as I also sent Tito for the memory bird first on the water part of the WCX, which Mitch was judging along with Jackie Mertens, and the go-bird second. I had a very, very valid reason for doing it, although it's a pretty long story. And it was 100% the right decision.



K9-Design said:


> I know when I first ran Slater, he was NOT experienced at master concepts. BUT he was a great marker, and could run really precise blinds if I did my job and kept him on a tight rope. What I couldn't afford was to let himself dig into a hole, he didn't have the experience to recover from mistakes. My first few tests I had judges ask me "why'd you blow the whistle, he was on line?" and my answer was -- to keep control and to keep him from getting OFF line!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Honestly Shelly, I am probably more worried about me than about him. I've run a total of 10 hunt tests in my life, plus the WC and WCX. I don't have the experience to know how to give him every advantage he needs to be successful. 

The judges are Corrine Clavey and Rich Barnett for 1 flight, and Paul Kartes and Rich Pyka for the other flight.





sterregold said:


> This part is so key, Anney, and is why as an experienced Master handler you were able to do well in Master with a green dog--*you were proactive not reactive*. It's one thing I notice when judging--often the dogs who fail the test have not had handler intervention until they were already deep in trouble, because the handler did not recognize the hazards in the test, or assess their dog's weaknesses in relation to the test. And by the time the handler intervened they were too far gone to recover.
> 
> Barb I still stand by my earlier advice to wait until he and you are more solid, but who are the judges?


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Riot and I had a full day of field training today. Lots of fun, and it was warm enough to get the dogs in the water. Pat Burns was in Greenville (where my usual group trains), so we got to work with him again. He said Riot is "a nice little dog." Ri did generally well, just needed a little help on a few of the marks to keep him in the area of the fall. Since he hasn't gone through swim-by, or been de-cheated at all, we did pretty obvious water marks. We also did our first reentry water mark, and he got in again without another bumper. Good boy!! 

Worked a few FTP just to show where we are at. Also got some guidance on how to correct a few issues that had popped up. 

I was asked what my goals are with Riot. Honestly, I have no idea. I guess I should think about that one a little bit so I can decide where we are headed...


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

We have started training in earnest for about 2 weeks now. I have Buffy entered in a HT in April. I hate to make the 125 mile trip but don't have many options.

BTW, FC-AFC Firemark's Elusive One (Lucy) is a full sibling to Buffy's sire. I read Andy Whitely's article in GR News. His description of Lucy included "handful" and "prey drive was off the chart". Boy, does that ring a familiar tone! This explains a lot!

Well, got to gather my bumpers and get ready to train.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Honestly Shelly, I am probably more worried about me than about him. I've run a total of 10 hunt tests in my life, plus the WC and WCX. I don't have the experience to know how to give him every advantage he needs to be successful.
> 
> The judges are Corrine Clavey and Rich Barnett for 1 flight, and Paul Kartes and Rich Pyka for the other flight.


Hmmm. I only know Paul. He would set a fair test and judge it fairly, but no guarantees you would get into his flight.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

and Paul LOVES goldens, especially show dogs


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> and Paul LOVES goldens, especially show dogs


That he does, even though they are not Little River dogs. He was running one of Mark Rusley's dogs in a Junior I judged when Bonnie (7 moas old at the time) broke out of my truck and joined us on line. She wanted to get ducks like Quill! Luckily it was Paul and he just thought it was funny and that she was cute. Someone else might have freaked!


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## KathyG (Nov 21, 2011)

Barb, GRCI is still more than a month away....and, there is no big water there. It would be hard for me to pass up a test so close to home. You have to start somewhere! Both sets of judges will have fair tests and they are all for the dog. It could be a $75 fun match...just to see where you are. He will probably do great, just like he did throughout senior.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Kathy. We need to get everyone out here to train....and then you can give me an honest opinion!!!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Thanks Kathy. We need to get everyone out here to train....and then you can give me an honest opinion!!!


I'm in! LOL


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

LOLOL I should have mentioned that Kathy and I live near each other !


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

We actually got out TWICE this past week to train!
Thursday we went to Dan's. Tito had just completed his 5 consecutive sessions of nothing but progressively harder singles (took since the fall to get in 5 sessions, yikes!) so we did some difficult singles and one not-so-difficult double. The monster boy did a nice job. Also ran a blind for the first time in a gazillion weeks, and he handled beautifully so his blinds haven't suffered from his hiatus from running them...which means we are going to continue to concentrate on marking concepts and just sneak in a few blinds now and then. 
Highlight of his day was 2 shot fliers. They were hand tossed by Dan's assistant who was out in the field a goodly distance from us, allowed to fly off a bit, and then shot. One went down about 175 yards to our left, a nice long mark thru some fairly heavy cover. After he picked that one up they did the second one, which went down to our right about 80 yards, in heavier cover which was skirted by a mowed "road". Another nice retrieve. Dan said *most* dogs would have run the road, as the mark was only a couple yards off the road, so I was proud. Tito has had a few *issues* lately, but cheating cover hasn't been one of them.
Then today I snuck out at lunch time and did some real DIVA training!!! My long-lost training partners (my fault, not theirs) invited me out to the local conservation area (where the MH test is, btw) to train. They knew I was very short on time since I had to be back at work by 2:00, so they had everything set up by the time I got there. I just got out of the car, ran my dog! Talk about a Diva! We ran a 245 yard single up the middle (love my distance/range finder!), which he lost. But he put up a terrific hunt, and finally I asked the gunner to help him. All he did was step out from behind the blind, and Tito recovered and found the bird. Re-ran it, and of course he stepped on it the second time. Followed that by a very wide double, which he had no trouble with. I would have been disappointed if he had, because it wasn't too hard. Then a blind, nice job.
They ran their dogs, then changed the set-up and again let Tito run first so I could get going. I ran the blind first this time, it was short (65 yards) but meaty as there were a couple of cover changes, a mowed road, a narrow patch of very heavy cover, and then the blind was just under a tree-line. He ran a terrific line thru the cover changes etc. and just needed to be one-whistled over a few feet to get the bird. Nice job monster boy!
This second set-up was a very interesting set-up, with the first mark 186 yards out but between 2 big, overlapping trees and then around another tree. I ran that as a single, then another wide double where the go-bird fell pretty close to a mark from our previous set-up, then one more long single so that we'd finish on a single.
All in all, he did pretty well. 
Then I just got in my car and left....they did all the work today....
ok, honestly, I felt bad about it. 
And tomorrow we are supposed to get 4-6 inches of SNOW.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

+1 for Team Gold! Went to club training day yesterday and Scout did fantastic! As we approached the line a judge/dog trainer said "I bet your dog breaks." I said, "I think not." She didn't break, and she nailed the double. It was my first time using the gun prop and pointing too. Then she did a single, and the Senior blind. Senior blind she handled nicely with only a few handles. After we did that the judge/trainer told us we did a da*n good job! I decided to run the Master blind down the middle of the marks but walked up on it. This wasn't as clean, but it wasn't terrible. Training!

Unfortunately it was too cold for water, although that didn't stop Scout from getting wet. So when I took her to the line trembling people thought she was cold. Nope, just really, really excited. Oh and we weren't the only golden people! And there was a cute springer puppy and I threw marks for the puppies 

I was nervous about running because I didn't want to look bad. But, after watching a pro take forever on the senior blind and shock the crap out of a young dog, I knew there was no way we could look worse than that. I don't know who would want to send their dog to her after seeing that debacle. It was sad. Clearly the dog had no clue what it was doing, and she's going to ruin it on blinds! She shocked it for nearly every infraction, the dog was screaming, and would not sit after several, and I mean several, whistle sits. The dog broke on one of the marks and went screaming the whole way to the bird. And he is only a year old. If the dog is having problems with breaking I don't know why you wouldn't start by holding the collar! I later talked to the owner who just thought his dog was being difficult. I didn't say anything. Would you have said anything?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

people like that give the e-collar a bad reputation. The problem is not the collar, it's the person who is holding the transmitter. Such a shame. We trained for 2 hours yesterday and I never once hit the collar. (I had my finger on it once when he was about 275 yards away and heading out farther, but he realized his mistake and turned back before I had to get his attention). 
On another note, doesn't Scout have a birthday coming up soon??? I remember hers being right after Tito's and Tiny's!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Rose has been doing excellent in the last couple days with her being steady and hand signals. We have been working on making her sit/whoa from long distances and throw the bumper for her. She whoas until released for the bumper. All with just hand signals! And she darts after it.
It may be just a little compared to the other dogs here but it is a huge improvement for me. It is so great watching her outside in the yard. 
On a sad note, we are having another winter storm. yuck.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Marshalled the open stake at Jax RC this weekend -- 3 days -- it's going to take a lot for them to convince me to do THAT again....
Mike Lardy ran 14 dogs and took home 1st, 2nd & 4th place.

Just happened to drive by the qual as they set up their first series yesterday, stopped to see what was up and asked if they needed a test dog. Yes! So Fisher ran their triple and did pretty super. Hunted a bit on the flyer (he didn't see it) but did really nice on the LOOOOOOOOONG memory bird. I am kicking myself for not entering -- the water triple was tricky looking but on a very small piece of water, and the blinds were doable. Maybe next time.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

You need a serious smack my friend...consider yourself smacked.
You and Rose are doing GREAT. Don't belittle your accomplishments by comparing them to other dogs here, or anywhere else. It's only about you and her, and how you are progressing, and whether or not you're having fun!! 
Just look at where you are now, and how far you have come.
Ok, I'm done yelling at you!




Claudia M said:


> Rose has been doing excellent in the last couple days with her being steady and hand signals. We have been working on making her sit/whoa from long distances and throw the bumper for her. She whoas until released for the bumper. All with just hand signals! And she darts after it.
> It may be just a little compared to the other dogs here but it is a huge improvement for me. It is so great watching her outside in the yard.
> On a sad note, we are having another winter storm. yuck.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I agree with Barb don't compare yourself to others. Set reasonable goals and work on them. It took me a looong time in comparison to others to get through a lot of field stuff for various reasons (one of which being inexperience).


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Yes Scout will be four on Easter day! I can't believe how old she is, but unfortunately it is a reminder how I feel like we haven't really accomplished anything yet  Although I do have a lot on my plate in my personal life, and I know she was trained enough to get some obedience titles just probably not to the nicer scores I wanted. And now we have limited access and time to hunt tests this year (after she did so good yesterday with the land session). 

I've been seriously contemplating if we finish her JH this spring (or even if we don't) pulling the plug on field training for awhile. Go back to obedience which would be less time consuming and have more opportunities. Fiance and I want to move in a few years and then get another puppy and at that point I would revisit field again with both dogs. She won't be too old. I know someone going back to field training going for their first Senior on a 9 year old dog. But then we have fantastic days like this past weekend and I realize we have come a long way already and it makes it hard to turn back now (but would it be turning back, or just putting on pause?).


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> I was nervous about running because I didn't want to look bad. But, after watching a pro take forever on the senior blind and shock the crap out of a young dog, I knew there was no way we could look worse than that. I don't know who would want to send their dog to her after seeing that debacle. It was sad. Clearly the dog had no clue what it was doing, and she's going to ruin it on blinds! She shocked it for nearly every infraction, the dog was screaming, and would not sit after several, and I mean several, whistle sits. The dog broke on one of the marks and went screaming the whole way to the bird. And he is only a year old. If the dog is having problems with breaking I don't know why you wouldn't start by holding the collar! I later talked to the owner who just thought his dog was being difficult. I didn't say anything. Would you have said anything?


What makes this worse is that this was a "pro" doing this to a young dog, and people are going to think this is what professional training looks like. If she were worth her salt she should have known this was counterproductive. Early blinds with young dogs should be about momentum and success. This dog is going to hate running blinds and has the potential to turn into a popper and a spinner and a no goer if she is burning him for everything when he obviously does not understand. If he is breaking I would be running breaking drills with him, not muddying the waters with everything else!

There is no testing or licensing to become a retriever pro--you hang out your shingle, and if people will give you dogs and pay you, you are a "pro".


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Yes Scout will be four on Easter day! I can't believe how old she is, but unfortunately it is a reminder how I feel like we haven't really accomplished anything yet  Although I do have a lot on my plate in my personal life, and I know she was trained enough to get some obedience titles just probably not to the nicer scores I wanted. And now we have limited access and time to hunt tests this year (after she did so good yesterday with the land session).
> 
> I've been seriously contemplating if we finish her JH this spring (or even if we don't) pulling the plug on field training for awhile. Go back to obedience which would be less time consuming and have more opportunities. Fiance and I want to move in a few years and then get another puppy and at that point I would revisit field again with both dogs. She won't be too old. I know someone going back to field training going for their first Senior on a 9 year old dog. But then we have fantastic days like this past weekend and I realize we have come a long way already and it makes it hard to turn back now (but would it be turning back, or just putting on pause?).


I'd say aim at getting her SH before you put things on hold. Youy have put the time into the skills, maintain them and get reward.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

sterregold said:


> What makes this worse is that this was a "pro" doing this to a young dog, and people are going to think this is what professional training looks like. If she were worth her salt she should have known this was counterproductive. Early blinds with young dogs should be about momentum and success. This dog is going to hate running blinds and has the potential to turn into a popper and a spinner and a no goer if she is burning him for everything when he obviously does not understand. If he is breaking I would be running breaking drills with him, not muddying the waters with everything else!
> 
> There is no testing or licensing to become a retriever pro--you hang out your shingle, and if people will give you dogs and pay you, you are a "pro".


This is an excellent post and it seems that you have read my mind as I was checking credentials for trainers this morning (APDT, CPDT). 

When someone goes to a pro, do they ask: How did you learn to train a dog? What journals do you read? What professional organizations do you belong to? Why do you want to work for me? These are things that I was asked when I had to look for a job.

People have learned not to question which I think is a bad thing.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Yes, it is an area that is problematic because there are some excellent pros out there who engage in ongoing professional learning by attending seminars, and by apprenticing with highly successful pros. If I ever decided to send a dog in for training, I would never send my dog to someone without seeing their track record of success, watching the dogs they train run tests, and going to watch them train. I have been at it long enough now that I know the pros within close reach of me who are true pros and ones I would not send my worst enemy's dog to, but unfortuately someone just getting into the game does not have that advantage.

At one AKC test I was at where all three of my entered dogs passed their tests (one in JH, one in SH, and one in MH) there was a "pro" with a trailer full of dogs who managed a pass only on one of his Junior entries. He actually came up and asked me how I got Goldens to run so well!! Frankly, if he needed to ask that, he had no business taking people's money! And some of the poor dogs on his truck that summer are now with real pros and actually getting some success.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Shelly how true your words are.
I just learned this weekend that a local guy - acquaintance of mine - is now offering "field training lessons / group sessions" for a fee. I literally laughed out loud when I heard it. He has never done anything more than a WCX (has entered senior with 2 dogs, never passed). His current two dogs won't swim. He burned his first dog up with a collar so has denounced the collar and now proudly offers "no force training." WHY WHY WHY do people feel the need to offer training just because someone will be dumb enough to take them up on it?? 
Golden people seem particularly prone to this -- how many "pro" trainers can you count, who show up with a truck load of junior dogs - show goldens - and pass maybe one or two? Yet they are pro trainers? Yikes....


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

It is not just the show Golden people unfortunately. There is someone in my area who takes money from people for day-training, and has people of all breeds going to him, but has managed to pretty much get a lock on some of the new breeds and rare breeds by getting key people in those communities to bring their dogs out to train at his place (and owning a collection of various breeds so he can say he is experienced in training them), and then he basically scares them into not going anywhere else. Their dogs get through JH and WC, and maybe WCI, but fall apart at SH and WCX where they have to handle because the basics just are not in place. And somehow he inspires cultish devotion. About the only time some of his acolytes pass SH or WCX is when they follow him (sometimes to the far end of the province) or people judging who are also part of the circle. It is so obvious to those of us outside the circle what the situation is--Mitch even asked me if I knew him after one of his NWOntario training/testing trips because he was surprised at the devotion as well!

I have people in my breed club who come out to train with me, but we are a training group and try to help each other and I do not collect money from them! We are amateurs helping amateurs. We pool our equipment, and birds, and grounds, and arms, and the more experienced people share their knowledge.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

It's sad too because people were starting to think that the dog was lacking in drive. Well, I did talk to the owner and the dog has a good working pedigree. Some of the dogs the pro ran did not look this bad, but c'mon, if a dog won't even sit after 10+ whistle sits and several nicks that is a training problem! Not a dog problem!

I was afraid when I got started of the pros so I trained with friends and books for a long time. Finally found a great guy who got scrutinized at club days and now he will have my little girl in June.

The problem though with some of these dogs they are so biddable and driven that they excel despite the intense pressure and shoddy training. Then it looks like the training is effective, eh?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

yup--it is the more complicated dogs that reveal who the true trainers are--they read the dog and tailor the training to what the dogs need to bring out their full potential.

One of the reasons I respect Mitch White as a trainer, is because of the dogs he trained who came from a certain breeder-owner. The breeder-owner had run the dogs in tests I was at in the past and they were AWFUL!! Then I was at a test, and Mitch ran this dog, and I quite liked its work, and looked it up in the catalogue to tell my friend who had that breed about it, and could not believe who it was. The dog was actually enjoying the work and it showed. Now with dogs who really do not have the natural talent, a good pro can get them through, but they will never have the drive and enthusiasm that a truly talented dog will. But a bad trainer can destroy even the best dog.


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## canismajor (May 1, 2011)

This discussion underlines the importance of observing and thinking for yourself, and not believing everything you hear or read, just because it's presented with authority. Bulls**t baffles brains -- it's never been so true.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

sterregold said:


> I'd say aim at getting her SH before you put things on hold. Youy have put the time into the skills, maintain them and get reward.


The problem I am worried about is water. This weekend demonstrated to me that she could pass Senior on land, but water? She's failed two juniors by pausing a few feet in the water before I handled her back to the bird. I think it is possible to work around, except that water is hard to come by here. What we do have is small ponds too and not likely to help if we wanted to travel outside the state where we wouldn't be prepared for big water. And then we find fish hooks in them 

But, we'll see what spring/summer brings. Pete will have her for a few weeks and I hope he swims her every day! We'll go from there...


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> The problem I am worried about is water. This weekend demonstrated to me that she could pass Senior on land, but water? She's failed two juniors by pausing a few feet in the water before I handled her back to the bird.


Is this dog through Basics? Water forced? If she were, this would not be an issue. Water force & Swim-by are the final skill sets of Basics.

EvanG


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

EvanG said:


> Is this dog through Basics? Water forced? If she were, this would not be an issue. Water force & Swim-by are the final skill sets of Basics.
> 
> EvanG


Yes she has. Here's the problem though, I haven't had much success bringing out the problem in training so I haven't had a chance to really address it. The hesitation has been mostly isolated to tests not training. I am prepared to use the water force if needed during training, but it just doesn't come up that often. Then I take her to a test and BAM, there it is. 

I've thought maybe I could try and duplicate a real test scenario to see if that brings it out. We have club training days but only four and they are so early in the season we are lucky to even get one where they actually do a water setup. My group training at our little ponds doesn't stimulate the real thing, and there is no way we could get away with poppers or the like near the water we have.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> Yes she has. Here's the problem though, I haven't had much success bringing out the problem in training so I haven't had a chance to really address it.


Ah, good! Perhaps I can help. Water force is a specific procedure, like T work. There is a drill for it that does not depend upon correcting a bad behavior. It's become the final part of formal Basics as a precursor to performing Swim-by.

There are several methods for it, but I believe I've refined it further than most, and that has made it easier to do for most newer trainers, and far more acceptable for more dogs. One of the good things about it is that it tends to take only about a week from start to finish.

Your 'location' is listed as "Potato land". Idaho? If so, wait until the actual water temps are above 50 degrees, and get this done before running more tests and forming more habits of failure.

EvanG


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

If you go with water force, you must be precise with your timing ... even more than when forcing to the pile (I believe that Evan will agree with that statement), especially since you seem to already have an issue. Without accurate timing, the problem will be exacerbated. Study the process, understand it before engaging in it.
Frankly, I have never water forced a dog ... never needed to. (I have, however, seen it done ... watched Dana Brown, Grady Istre and Danny Farmer do it ... so I know the procedure. I just choose not to do it.)
FTGoldens


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I did water force and swimby last year with the help of a pro. I am still leery because I failed one test after water force but before completing swimby. I pulled her from the other test I wanted to run. I haven't run any tests since completing both last year. I was really positive after finishing water force that I wouldn't have a problem going forward but I did. Perhaps if I could have trained in water all winter I wouldn't be so concerned right now.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Weeeeeee! Riot and I had a great field session today! We did three different set-ups with 3 singles in each. He did really well on almost all of them, just needed help on one of the sinlges. It was the hardest, down then up a hill, where he had to go past the previous guns and lost sight of the gunner on the way there. It was probably a little too challenging for him, and he needed a lot of help getting out there. Ri even did a "mom and pop" although I had to work hard to get him to look at the gunner again. 

We got some good feedback, and my training buddies said he is progressing well. I wish we had really gotten going in field a little bit sooner, but we are still enjoying the journey


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> I did water force and swimby last year with the help of a pro. I am still leery because I failed one test after water force but before completing swimby....Perhaps if I could have trained in water all winter I wouldn't be so concerned right now.


There are a variety of ways to go about it. It's now been over 20 years since a dog I've water forced has refused water. De-cheating is a matter of maintenance, but it's minimal with one that has been soundly water forced. It's different with a dog that seeks water, and that change in attitude is a read consistent with the way I do it.

I've seen and used the methods of Walters, Carr, Eckett, et al. They're good. But they don't have the same focus or mechanism. For example, many are based on merely forcing to a pile across water. Mine forces *to* water, and is lower pressure than most. Water becomes part of the reward mechanism, so when a correction is made around water (for decheating for example) the trained response is to seek water.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Today was one of those golden days where just being outside with my buddy made life seem so sweet. 
It was a balmy 45 degrees, light wind, and the sun was shining. 
We headed for Dan's, which was a bit of a sloggy mess since they got 12 inches of now melting snow 4 days ago. 
Started with 4 blinds which got progressively harder, including one 200+ yard one that was extremely meaty with cover changes, swales, bushes, etc. The monster boy did a terrific job on them, Dan and I were as pleased as could be EXCEPT Tito winded the blind 3 of the times and refused a sit whistle because he could see the bird. We fixed that problem. But overall, a great job. Of course, in a HT I wouldn't have even tried to sit him so close to the bird, I would have let him just go with it and pick it up. 
Dan says it's really a matter of my timing. I blew the sit whistle right as Tito winded the bird each time, or probably very shortly afterward. He said I need to be quicker, and more sharp, with my whistle. And of course, the dog needs to sit when he's told to. But we are in agreement that his blinds are looking very, very nice. 
Then we ran a few singles and one double, which he also did a nice job on. The best of all....I tossed a bumper in the water for him a few times to get some of the mud off of him before we got back in the car. He was lovin' it, 35 degree water and all !


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Our water is still in the upper 30s, so unless it warms up substantially (to 50 degrees) by mid April, Faelan will not be ready for Senior tests starting in mid May - teacher wants a month to work on water blinds before entering Faelan in Senior; think warming thoughts


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I had to laugh, I asked Dan today if the water was warm enough for Tito. He just shook his head at me, and said, "look at him. He's a polar bear". So I let the boy swim. And he was just plain thrilled to do it! (We weren't training in the cold water, he was just playing with a bumper).


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I took both boys out today for a few bumpers in the water. It was a beautiful day - 70 degrees out


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Jodie needs a smack for telling me how warm it is there.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Nah, we just need to send her pictures of our *clean* (not bright lime green) water and brag on when it is in the 60s, 70s and 80s and we are outside playing and she is stuck inside for months on end because its 110 & humid where she is


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Grins, yep, my crew is running in and playing in the water, but Frank doesn't like to train water blinds until the water has warmed to at least 50.



hotel4dogs said:


> I had to laugh, I asked Dan today if the water was warm enough for Tito. He just shook his head at me, and said, "look at him. He's a polar bear". So I let the boy swim. And he was just plain thrilled to do it! (We weren't training in the cold water, he was just playing with a bumper).


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, that's why I clarified it after I wrote it....there's a HUGE difference between playing in the cold water, which is all we were doing, and training in it.



Sunrise said:


> Grins, yep, my crew is running in and playing in the water, but Frank doesn't like to train water blinds until the water has warmed to at least 50.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Just got back from the pro (first time this season). Scout did great. No problem on any of the water marks, even that water-land-water. Of course I've never seen her hesitate at Pete's even when long marks on lots of water. He wondered if it was a bird thing (yes, I mostly train with bumpers). So he gave her a life flyer over water and....no problems. Ran a land blind. I didn't think it was near our best, but he said he would pass a senior dog for it (he also judges). He actually thinks if we work hard and her water attitude remains as good as it was today we could run Senior at our June test (right before I leave)!!

New speculation is we're wondering if by me being nervous at a test if that throws her off. Plus, I've been holding her collar in junior tests because I've always heard the advice don't ruin it. But, he also thinks that may be a negative. I don't hold her collar in training. We'll see. Holding my breath. If we have problems again this year I'll eat my hat. Seriously. I know she's a capable dog.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

We ran out at noontime today to do a quick training session at the local conservation area. It was one of those days where I want to just throw in the towel and quit.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> We ran out at noontime today to do a quick training session at the local conservation area. It was one of those days where I want to just throw in the towel and quit.


Ah, don't quit. How'd you like to be looking forward to the year I am? Not sure how much training is going to be done here, and I'm wondering how Tugg is going to get trained. In anything. You ever think about doing some training with him? He will give you a real challenge.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I know, I'm just frustrated. It's not Tito's fault, it's mine. Which is what's so frustrating....
Tugg is a good boy. He will spend the time maturing, and will knock your socks off when you're ready to go back to training!


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> I know, I'm just frustrated. It's not Tito's fault, it's mine. Which is what's so frustrating....
> Tugg is a good boy. He will spend the time maturing, and will knock your socks off when you're ready to go back to training!


Well, Tugg Can be a good boy !! The other night after he flew over to the coffee table, landed on the end table, and sent everything flying off the end table including the lamp, into the freshly painted wall, not so good. I too am feeling a little frustrated, not because of the dogs but because of my impending surgery and recovery. But the alternative of not having it is scarier than the thought of the surgery. Tito is phenomenal, and you are a very lucky person to have been his partner. Nothing he could ever do from here on out could be a disappointment.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> Jodie needs a smack for telling me how warm it is there.


March must be the smacking month! I still feel the smack from Monday!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Ah, it's myself I'm disappointed in, not Tito. He's wonderful. I don't know what I ever did to deserve this dog, I often feel I really don't deserve him at all. 
Claudia, maybe I need to smack myself, too???


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> Ah, it's myself I'm disappointed in, not Tito. He's wonderful. I don't know what I ever did to deserve this dog, *I often feel I really don't deserve him at all. *
> Claudia, maybe I need to smack myself, too???


hahaa Barb - hurry up March is almost over! But only for the bold-ed statement!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

You are all too warm! Waiting for water to get to 50 would rarely if ever happen up here. You should see those Alaskan kids though out swimming in the lakes. They are much more hardier than me. 

Last weekend we missed due to Miss Lucy being in the conformation show both days. This weekend the snow is too deep, we'll loose our birds. So our group is meeting tomorrow morning for coffee and planning our training sessions and hunt/field events. I'm looking forward to learning all the rules and what we need to get accomplished in the next few weeks. First picnic trial is May 11. We'll see how deep the snow is then. There should be plenty of ice still on the lakes, so no swimming yet. The ice flows on the ocean will be broken up by then, so we could probably head to the salty water.

If anyone is interested they are planning on running WCX's up here this summer for the first time in a few years. So if you are coming up on vacation, it might be a good time to plan for.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I let Flip do some field work this week while I've been on spring break. I even got my parents to throw a few marks for him - first time in years he's gotten to do something like that instead of just me throwing them out there.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Ah, it's myself I'm disappointed in, not Tito. He's wonderful. I don't know what I ever did to deserve this dog, I often feel I really don't deserve him at all.
> Claudia, maybe I need to smack myself, too???


Yep, he's a once in a lifetime dog. But it does take two to make a team and you've been a great partner to Tito.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thank you my friend.



my4goldens said:


> Yep, he's a once in a lifetime dog. But it does take two to make a team and you've been a great partner to Tito.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

We are still in winter's clutches here--I had hoped to get in some training today but winds are too high to make it feasible. My kids "worked" the cub booth all day Friday and Sunday at All About Pets which is a companion animal trade show in Toronto. Breeze did a hand-thrown double and a blind during the parade of breeds--our first "field" work in weeks!!!


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