# Charlie is just picking at his Acana now...



## firedancer722 (Apr 12, 2010)

First I want to say that I hope I'm not asking too many questions... 

Last night, I poured out Charlie's supper (Acana Pacifica) and we did our routine where he sits, shakes both paws, and then makes eye contact with me (and not the food) for 5 seconds. I put the bowl down and with his other foods we've tried (Canidae and Nutrisource), he chows down and keeps licking the bowl after it's gone. But since we've been on Acana, I've noticed he eats slower. Maybe this is a good thing, but I take it as a sign that he's just not that crazy about it. But last night, he went to the bowl, ate a kibble or two, and then looked at me. I coaxed him along as he ate it very slowly, and at one point, he actually walked away from his half-full food bowl to go look out the back door. I had to coax him back to finish it. I thought, maybe it's just a one-time thing, but this morning, it was like the same story all over again. He actually didn't even take a first bite, but sniffed and walked away for a minute or two. I picked up the bowl, smelled it, and it smelled the same as always - fishy, but not rancid or anything. I put it down and threw a couple of treats on top and he started eating it slowly. 

So... here's my thing. I bought that food specifically because I thought Charlie had food allergies - he scratches himself silly, shakes his head, and had gunky eyes. Since being on the Acana for over 3 weeks now, he is still scratching, shaking his head, and having gunk in his eyes. AND, his fur seems really oily to me. So, I've been giving him benadryl these past few days to help him stop itching so much and it has helped quite a bit. 

Here's my question... if the Acana, grain free, fish food is not helping, is it possible that he just has environmental allergies and not food allergies??? 

I'm having a hard time financially affording the Acana (almost $60 for a 29 lb bag) and he eats 3 1/2 cups a day. And the more I read here, the more I don't know if I want to feed a grain-free food. This particular one just doesn't seem to be working for Charlie, and it seems that a LOT of dogs do great on foods like Pro Plan. BUT, I wondered if I fed something like Pro Plan Sensitive or Eukanuba Sensitive, would it even help if Charlie just has environmental allergies? 

Anyways, I know this post is going in every direction, but I am trying to figure out what will work best for Charlie, and also work best for my budget. 

Thanks y'all.  
Candace


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Argh, food is so frustrating - I feel your pain! I don't have much to say though...just hope things get sorted out with Charlie!


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

With food allergies, you won't necessarily see results for 8-12 weeks. But if you aren't thrilled with this food, there are lots of other options for foods.

If Charlie does have environmental allergies, food may or may not make a huge difference in his level of comfort. Allergies tend to be cumulative, meaning that an animal is rarely allergic to just one thing. Say he's allergic to grass-maybe that takes him to X level with his allergies. Then he's allergic to dust mites-on it's own, dust mites would take him to level Y, BUT during grass season his allergy level will be Z (X PLUS Y, not simply the individual highest level). So maybe Charlie has both environmental allergies (level X) and some food sensitivities (level Y). By eliminating the food sensitivities, we keep Charlie at level X rather than excalating to level Z.

But maybe he doesn't have food sensitivities at all! Unfortunately, food trials are really the only sure way to know (blood tests are not all that accurate for foods). 

Bottom line, I'd try a different food and see how it goes. I'd also add anti-inflammatory doses of fish oil to his diet (300mg combined DHA/EPA per 10 pounds body weight) and maybe ask your vet for some antihistamine recommendations.


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## firedancer722 (Apr 12, 2010)

Thanks y'all... 

And again last night, he ate the food like it was rat poison or something... kept walking away and then going back, eating very slowly. Then this morning, he wouldn't even eat it at all. I gave him 10 minutes and nothing. I bagged it up and sent it with him to daycare and told them he was being fussy about eating it. They said they'd try to feed him after naptime. We'll see. Now, I've gotta figure out what to try next. Ugghhhh....


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

If he's not eating it...and allergies are a concern...I'd try the Evo. Ranger was starting to get fussy about the Orijen 6 fish and then he started going downhill - brittle coat, tons of gas, etc. After the formula change, it just wasn't as palatable so he wanted to eat it less.

Evo has a salmon and herring formula if you want to keep him on fish. Ranger's currently eating the red meat formula and is going NUTS over it. It might be a little pricey, but the calorie content is so high, you'll end up feeding less than the Acana. Actually, I just checked it and the calorie difference isn't as huge as the red meat variety. Red meat has 527 cals/cup and the Salmon and Herring has 456 cals/cup (pacifica has 430 cals/cup).

Here's the link to Evo Salmon and Herring:
http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?panel=ga&id=1699

I really can't say enough good things about it. Ranger loooves eating it and he's done SO well on it. He's sensitive to certain grain (rice and oats) and tends to get itchy, but nowhere near Charlie's level of itchiness, and this food has helped SO much.


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

Sorry you're having so many challenges with Charlie and his itchies and ears/eyes. It must be very frustrating as you sound like the kind of person that dotes on your boy and wants to see him happy.
I too would recommend trying another food. YOu want him to be happy and eating is a big part of the Golden happy-gene in my opinion. I am not sure what to recommend as far as food is concerned, but I know Ranger has given you some good advice provided you want to remain on the grain-free varietals. 

As IowaGold mentioned, it would take about 6-8 weeks to know if food was affecting anything. But if he is refusing to eat the food, I would say change it. You want Charlie to have pleasure while eating his food! 
To me, I think I said this before, it does sound more environmental. But there could also be some underlying health issues - ie have you checked his thyroid levels to make sure everything is ok there? You described bad skin & ears with an oily texture? Often a thyroid imbalance can be to blame (not always but worth checking). 
Have you tried any probiotics? Sometimes dogs have trouble with an over-growth of yeast in their systems and often pro-biotics help. 
And my last suggestion is something IowaGold also noted is fish oils (not to be confused with cod liver oil). I give Katie currently 4000mg a day (4 gelcaps - 2 with each meal) they help a lot with itching. They work internally as a natural anti-inflammatory and often help to keep skin issues at bay. If you decide to try fish oils, start adding to his food gradually - ie one a day until he can tolerate. They can cause loose stools if introduced too quickly. I know the dose recommended for allergic conditions is 1000mg per 10lbs, we use less than that, but in late August when Katie's seasonal allergies flare up we increase her dosage. The 4000mg we give is her maintenance dosage and we up it in circumstances when needed.

I hope that helps.
Sorry I cannot help on the food front. You'll get better advice from others. 

---
Kim


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## firedancer722 (Apr 12, 2010)

Alright... here are the foods I'm considering JUST to rule-out if it's allergies to food. The thing that concerns me is that there isn't enough protein / fat in them and that the calcium / phosphorus levels might not be right for a dog that I believe is still growing. Tell me what y'all think!! 

California Natural - New Grain Free Venison Meal Formula 
http://http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products/default.asp?panel=in&id=1715

Natural Balance - either the Sweet Potato / Bison , Sweet Potato / Venison , or Potato / Duck - these definitely seem to be REALLY low protein / fat and I'm not sure I'm ok with that. 
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/PandD.html


And then WAAY on the other hand, I almost just want to believe it's only environmental allergies, and put him on either EVO Red Meat or Innova Red Meat. 


Or, an option somewhere in the middle is to try Eagle Pack Holistic Select Duck Meal Recipe 
http://www.holisticselect.com/product.aspx?pet=dog&cat=5&pid=3


I wish the perfect food could just fall off the shelf in front of me!! LOL :uhoh:


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

What do you think he's allergic to, food-wise? Are you thinking it's the meat, a specific grain, or just grains in general? 

My personal opinion (after dealing with Ranger doing poorly on Acana), I'd stay away from grains all together. I didn't think Ranger was allergic to grains until I put him back on a grain food (Acana) and he started getting itchy/yeasty ears.

I'd stay away from food with grains and then you don't need to worry about what grain is causing the allergies, you could start to pinpoint the meat ingredient. It's best to stick with one variable at a time, if you can. If he's getting something with chicken and rice (just an example), you don't know if it's the chicken OR the rice (or both), so if switch to duck and rice (another example) and he's still itchy...is it the duck or the rice? Switch to lamb and grain free and he's fine...so was it the rice, the chicken or the duck he was allergic to? See what I mean about variables?

Try a grain free with a different source of meat than chicken (since that seems to a common allergen) and see how he does on that. If he's still super itchy after 4-6 weeks with no improvement, you can probably rule out that it's the food that's causing such bad itchies. If you keep sticking with grains, I think you'll just keep circling back and never know what the cause is.


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## firedancer722 (Apr 12, 2010)

Okay, so do you think it would be better to just try a single protein (that's Charlie hasn't had) like the Venison California Natural (grain free) or should I go ahead and do the EVO which has multiple kinds of meat?

Thanks for your help!!!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

You do have options as far as dog food, but those can be put off for later until you sort out what's going on with the little guy. I'd honestly take him in to the vet and have them check him for thyroid and kidney issues. It could be he's a fussy eater, but refusing to eat is the first sign that something is bothering a dog. The sample that gets sent in to a specialist for testing can cost $90-150, and it is well worth the peace of mind. You can rule those things out and focus on the allergies. Again, this is something the vet can address - whether it's routine shots or a prescription to help manage the allergies. 

If your dog is suffering from an upset stomach from the food, then the best thing to do is stop that dog food completely and put your dog on a bland diet (hamburger and rice/potatoes) until you can wean him onto a food that he can handle. All of my dogs have gone through the colitis issues and my previous old guy had two bouts with pancreatitis (never give Thanksgiving dinner leftovers to your dogs). They'd come running up with shiny eyes when they'd see me boiling the hamburger for the week. I'd keep the hamburger and rice in a tupperware container in the fridge and dish out a cup for morning and cup at night. 

You can wean your dog onto a new dog food right from the hamburger and rice. And I usually start with 1/3 of a cup twice a day for at least two weeks. This gives you enough time to judge whether the dog likes the kibble + you can watch the dog's poop.

Slightly mushy poop (formed, but very soft looking) can happen at first, even with limited switching. If the poop is more like mashed potatoes or is diarrhea, then that means your dog can't handle that new food. 

Dog food suggestions - 

When you pick up a bag, check with the cashier for their return policy. And just buy the small bag.  

Or if you find yourself with an extra bag of food, just donate it to a shelter if they'll take an open bag. Don't feel like you have to stick with the food rather than waste it. 

My dogs did best on a lamb and rice kibble. We did Nutro Max and then Nutro Natural Choice. The dogs liked the taste of the food and it seems like they did not have stomach upset from their food anymore. They did if they got into people food or ate washcloths (!), but that's that. <- What I'm saying is that sometimes, the highest rated and most expensive dog foods aren't the best for your dog.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Has Charlie had allergy symptoms his whole life? Flora eats Purina Pro Plan sensitive formula, and has been doing wonderfully on it. However, once we moved to Louisiana (from Illinois) and the weather heated up (and, ahem, we moved into a flea infested house) Flora has been VERY itchy and has somewhat gunky eyes and ears. I firmly believe it is the environment and not her food, seeing as she was absolutely fine on it back home in Illinois during the winter.

Rather than switching your dog to and from a bunch of different foods I would get him on one that he enjoys and doesn't give him bad stools, and then monitor him for several months. Go through a "season" (the summer) and see if there are any changes in the fall/winter. If there aren't, then I would start looking @ food allergies.

I'm not a vet or an expert though.  If Flora continues to be itchy and gunky when we hit winter 598 years from now, I'll reconsider her food for sure. She's so itchy it's beginning to make ME itchy (not literally, but geez, watching her makes me feel sorry for her.)


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## firedancer722 (Apr 12, 2010)

Thank you all so much for the input and suggestions. I don't know exactly whether Charlie has had allergy symptoms his whole life or not because I just adopted him on April 6 of this year. He was probably about 8 months old at the time. When I first got him, he did the head shaking thing a lot, but I just thought it was something dogs did. But I DON'T remember him scratching himself as much as he is now. He did however have gunky eyes. In fact, when I first got him, he itched at his right eye constantly, and it was red and inflamed (the skin on the outside). I had to put an ointment on it and it took a good 6-7 weeks to heal. However, he still itches it sometimes. When I got him, I put him on Canidae ALS and he scarfed it down, but his poops were never very firm. They were formed, but a bit mushy and hard to pick up most all the time. 

I just had a lightbulb go off ... when we moved from my apartment in another town to sharing a house with a lady that has 3 dogs, Charlie started blowing his coat and since then, he has been scratching and itching like crazy... we've been living there since the end of May. I saw a flea one night crawling on Charlie's leg while we were sitting on the couch but I thought he just got it from outside and I picked it off and haven't seen another on him since (he's on Frontline Plus). When I think about it though, I think the lady's dogs that Charlie lives with (3 small breeds) only use some sort of Sentry Pro flea / tick med, and I'm not sure if she applies it regularly. Do you think it's possible that there are fleas or some other new allergen in the house that Charlie is reacting to? Could he react even if he is on Frontline? Would I necessarily know if there were fleas in the house? If I really think about it, I can honestly say that Charlie's itching increased substantially when we moved to the house with the other dogs. And within 3 weeks of being there, he was itching so much he started getting red patches and bumps on his belly and groin and ended up with a staph infection (which we are finishing up antibiotic treatment for). However, this is all also occurring during spring / summer when everything is blooming and it's extremely hot outside! When I took charlie to the vet for his itching a couple of weeks ago, she said she did not see any fleas. Argghh! I am so confused and overwhelmed. Charlie was fine when we lived on our own - except for the head shaking thing and gunky eyes. 

The good news is, we are about to move out of there (in a week). My new roommates only have one dog (a golden mix!) and she is on Frontline Plus too. 

Gosh, I can't believe I didn't really put these things together before today. :doh: :doh: :doh:


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## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

He could definitely be reacting to flea bites in the same way we get itchy from mosquito bites. Even though he's on the flea meds, if there are fleas they will still bite although they will die afterward and/or won't be able to reproduce.

On the refusal to eat Acana - maybe he doesn't like fish. My brother's Golden refused Wellness canned fish years ago. Our cat ended up enjoying it! He likes every other type of canned food though - just refused the fish one.


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## firedancer722 (Apr 12, 2010)

Well, after thinking it over and considering everything, I've decided to put Charlie on the new California Natural Venison Meal Grain Free food for an exclusion diet trial. He is just NOT liking the Acana fish food and otherwise seems perfectly healthy. Good energy, gets the zoomies quite often, etc. I figure, even if we are moving in a week and if it's fleas or something else, he'll get better before he would get better from the food, but it is still a good idea to try the food. Then, if he gets better basically as soon as we move, I'll be pretty convinced it's not the food, but flea bites. However, if he is still itching, or if he's itching less, then we'll finish the food trial for another 6 weeks or so and see how he does on it. To my knowledge, he has never had venison. My only concern is that it is not a very high protein / high fat food. I think the protein is 21% and fat is 11%. I really wanted him to be on something like 25-30% protein and 16-18% fat. Would giving him the fish oil capsules help with the fat content? Or should I not give him fish oil, in case he is actually allergic to fish!? 

Thanks for being so patient with me, everyone!!! You all have helped a ton! 

Candace


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Fish based food are fairly rich - some dogs can't tolerate it. After pretty much a whole year of dealing with constant ear infections and urinary tract infections and discovering on my own both these problems can be food related - these are allergy symptoms -I put Kaya and Milo on Orijen Regional Red - no chicken, grain,rice or corn - they loved it right off and they have not had to deal with infections since. A real blessing - I hated to see them suffer. If your dog is not eating the food - he is telling you something - it is not agreeing with him.
On another note - is it possible he is reacting to the Frontline that he is being treated with?


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## firedancer722 (Apr 12, 2010)

Hmmm... I have been using Frontline on him since I got him and he has never itched this much until we moved. I am pretty certain it is fleas in the house where we are living. I just posted a new thread about it this morning. I am not seeing any difference with food changes, and I figure it is much more likely he is reacting to an occasional flea jumping up and biting him than having actual food allergies. Although, I certainly could be wrong. As much as I would like to keep him on a grain free food, my budget just will not allow it. I have switched him to California Natural Lamb & Rice Puppy food. A bit cheaper, but if his itching gets much better when we get moved (tomorrow!), I will likely switch him to Pro Plan for budget reasons. If it gets worse when I switch to that food and I know it's not fleas, then I'll consider food allergies. 

Thanks for all the help!!


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## Stircrazy (Nov 30, 2009)

How many times a day are you feeding him? My Kona started doing that with his food when I was feeding him 3 times a day. I took out lunch and now he eats normal again. the only other time he has done that is when he had a partial blockage.

Steve


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## babbs (Feb 9, 2010)

You can also get some Capstar from your vet (or online) to kill the live fleas that are biting. Sounds like flea allergic dermatitis. Use the capstar once a month along with the frontline plus and you should be flea free in a few months if you are moving. Otherwise you need to treat carpets/bedding and yard which is a pain but well worth it in the end. I agree that he probably just doesn't like the fish. Acana is a strong scenty food. Good luck - you'll figure it out


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