# Bully Sticks and puppy agression



## stealle

I read that puppies love bully sticks. I think that is an understatement. I gave Ollie (3 months old) his first one yesterday. He became very possessive. When my wife tried to pet him, he thought she was trying to take it away. Ollie growled and snapped (best he could without dropping the bully stick) at my wife. He looked scary I must admit. He really stiffened up his body and moved very quick with a rigid posture when we got close to him. I'm not scared of him; he knows I'm the alpha dog in the house, but he still tried this on me. 

I didn't let him win. I grabbed him by the scruff and took it away. Then I made him "sit" and "down". I gave it back only this time I held on to one end of the bully stick, petting him telling him he is a good boy. I would take it away for a few seconds and give it back, repeatedly. He seemed to calm down. However, if let him have it completely and walk away, this seems to "reset" him back to square one; growling and rigid posture (that looks like "don't come any closer or I will attack). 

Prior to this bully stick incident, I have been trying to avoid food aggression by doing obedience training before each meal with his kibble. I also take his food bowl away in the middle of some of his meals and then give it back. He has always accepted this and has never shown any signs of aggression until the bully stick.

So what am I doing wrong? I kinda think I should just not give him any more bully sticks. Or, should I keep giving him bully sticks and somehow teach him not to be aggressive. He is at an impressionable age. I want to do the right thing now while he is 20lbs. It might get harder to be the alpha dog when he is 80lbs :doh:


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## Charliethree

Bully sticks are extremely high value items for any dog, even moreso if it is the first time they get one. If you are going to give him one- in all fairness- leave him alone with it - no petting, nothing. Forcing a dog to give up a high value item -aggressing on him (taking him by the scruff and removing the item) can cause him to feel threatened when you approach when he has an item and be even more 'protective' of it. Take the time to teach him to trade- start with lower value items like toys (put the bully stick away, for a long time) trade for a high value treat, and give him the toy back. Practice with a variety of different items and work up to the high value items. 
I am not one to take things from my dog because I 'can', because when I NEED to take something from them, I want to be able to do it without a fuss- teaching them to trade for a high value treat - has made that possible.


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## stealle

Thanks for the response. I'm certainly not taking it away just "because I can". It's more so that I don't want him to be so aggressive and possessive of something that he would actually bite someone, especially my kids. I have two children 6 & 8 years old. They are well behaved but... they are kids. Ollie has been very mouthy and my kids are just now becoming less afraid of the puppy and coming to realize that his mouthiness doesn't really hurt, most of the time. However, yesterday I had to keep the kids away while he had the bully stick because I could tell Ollie would bite them for real if they messed with him. 

I appreciate your advice. Sounds like I should continue to let him have the bully sticks. Maybe leave him be with them for a few days then start trying to work on "trading" the bully stick for something else. 

BTW, the 7" bully stick lasted about an hour. Geeze, based on what I read, I thought it would last a puppy a couple days. He was frantic with the thing!


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## Ada's Mom

Ada started guarding high value items when she was young even though she didn't have any trouble with me being around her food. Teaching trade like the poster above mentioned is the right way to go about it. With Ada I was able to start out just working with the high value item she was guarding (didn't have to start with lower values items, but it will be dependent on your dog).

What I did was get some chicken and hotdogs and when I approached her while she was chewing on the high value item I gave her some chicken or hotdog and then took the high value item away. I did that a few times a day for about a week and was able to take it away without a trade after that. I was lucky that it was able to be worked out so quickly, I've heard it can take a while for some dogs.


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## cubbysan

The only time in Brady's six years that he showed any aggression was when he was 6 months and I gave him a "high valued" bully stick. My daughter went to step over him, and he bit her really good. I immediately put him in his crate, and for the next month we hand fed him, all family members. To be honest with you, I really think he shocked himself by acting that way, right after he did it, he was very subdued, like he knew he did wrong. Maybe it was my daughter's scream.

I did not give him another bully stick until he was about a year old ( I actually no longer buy them but instead give both dogs raw cow bones ) and had no issues. He would actually want to sit on one of our laps while chewing them.

I can take anything out of his mouth now.


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## BriGuy

Cookie wasn't a resource guarder, but I did read the book "Mine" when she was a puppy to familiarize myself with the issue since it seems so common. It is a great book to follow.

Something I did for a long time was if Cookie was chewing a marrow bone or something of very high value, I would leave her alone, but every so often, I would walk close and throw a piece of cheese. Eventually, the dog associates you approaching with something great about to happen.

Here is a link to the book:
Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs: Jean Donaldson: 9780970562944: Amazon.com: Books


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## OutWest

Adasmom's approach sounds like a good one--giving something of equally high value in return. 

I'm very careful about how I distribute high value items in my multiple dog household because the best of friends can get very possessive and weird when things like bully sticks are involved.

The ultimate high value treat here is a marrow bone. Both Goldens love them, but I've started saving them for times when one will be left home alone for a time.

You're wise to address this now, but I wouldn't think of it as an alpha issue, just a trust one. And I'd make sure that everyone is your household is able to take something away from your dog, not just you. Your wife, kids, etc., should all be able to. 

One thing I did with Tucker as a puppy that was helpful was to give a bit of food in his bowl, then reach down and add more, etc. he learned that the hand coming toward his food usually meant MORE good stuff.


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## Sally's Mom

Cookie, of course is related to all of my dogs who do not resource guard, either.
However, I never give high value treats with my dogs as I do not want them aggressing with each other.. Mine is an excellent book to read. And as others have said, practice trading with things of not high value to teach your pup to give things up.


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## Brave

We're starting to have this issue with Bear, but we pounced on correcting it and Bear is getting so much better!

For us, it started with his carrots, and he's progressed to getting possessive of his Kong. We've been working on "drop it", "leave it" and "wait" for a few weeks now. 

I've successful told him to leave it, and come sit by my side so I retrieve the high value item w/o worrying about his mouth beating me to it. And even got him to obey an "off" command so I could move his carrot to a more appropriate area (dog drool on the sofa STINKS! PeEwww)

Every meal for the past three-four days we've been doing a combination of hand-feeding, food aversion (where you don't let the animal have the food in your hand until they stop trying to get it and relax), and eye contact. I'll hold a handfull of food in my closed fist, once Bear has relaxed and is sitting or lying down, I will drop the food in the empty bowl and ask him to wait. As soon as he gives me eye contact, I'll release him and let him eat. Rinse and repeat approx 10 times per meal. I think it's helping him understand that if he listens to me, he'll get the food he wants faster. 

We're also making him practice good manners when playing fetch. He has to drop the toy (we give him a treat for that, so it's more of a trade), then he has to sit and look at me before I'll throw it again. No jumping on me. No trying to snatch the toy out of my hand.


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## MercyMom

It seems to me that resource guarding in Goldens in becomming an epidemic. My girl had resource guarding at 3 months with a bully stick also. It was very shocking. I did some research online and found out that the best remedy is getting your pup to willingly give it up by giving him something even more appetizing. Or you can give the bully stick back after he has traded it for a treat, so he can trust you. Anger and dominance doesn't work with Goldens. Goldens need positive encouragement. I know it's easier said than done. I am working with a private dog trainer to work with my pup's mouthing and she is teaching me positive alternatives to correcting her for mouthing.


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## quilter

My puppy froze and stared at me when I tried to take his first bully stick when he was about 3 months old. That was the last one he saw for many, many months. No issues after that.

Random question about bully sticks. I read in on this forum that you need to take the sticks away when they get too small or they will swallow too big a piece. True or not? Because I hate trying to get back the stinky, sticky bully stick.


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## BriGuy

quilter said:


> Random question about bully sticks. I read in on this forum that you need to take the sticks away when they get too small or they will swallow too big a piece. True or not? Because I hate trying to get back the stinky, sticky bully stick.


Cookie swallowed a big piece twice, and puked both times. After the second time I saw the pattern and she hasn't had a bully stick since. They were a great puppy item, but once her mouth reached adult size, she was eating them too fast, and they aren't cheap! :doh:


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## Charliethree

stealle said:


> Thanks for the response. I'm certainly not taking it away just "because I can". It's more so that I don't want him to be so aggressive and possessive of something that he would actually bite someone, especially my kids. I have two children 6 & 8 years old. They are well behaved but... they are kids. Ollie has been very mouthy and my kids are just now becoming less afraid of the puppy and coming to realize that his mouthiness doesn't really hurt, most of the time. However, yesterday I had to keep the kids away while he had the bully stick because I could tell Ollie would bite them for real if they messed with him.
> 
> I appreciate your advice. Sounds like I should continue to let him have the bully sticks. Maybe leave him be with them for a few days then start trying to work on "trading" the bully stick for something else.
> 
> BTW, the 7" bully stick lasted about an hour. Geeze, based on what I read, I thought it would last a puppy a couple days. He was frantic with the thing!


I would strongly suggest putting the bully sticks away (they ARE super high value items for a lot of dogs and you don't want him to 'practice' the behavior, even by someone being unintentionally close to him when he has it) until you have had time to work at teaching him to trade for other items of lesser value for quite awhile. Include the children in the training as well, he will need to learn that 'trading' applies with the kids as well.


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## Michele4

So if i got this right, no high value treat with other dog in the house. Best if left alone with it. My 4 month old just did this the other day, he had a pigs ear growled when the other dogs approached him, did not growl at me just ran from me , scared me because he had never done this before. Luckily i did trade it for another snack and threw it away. He's teething now lost 4 teeth in the past 3 days that i know of, so i wanted him to have something to chew on. I think ill stick to the small treats for now at least he knows where they are coming from.


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## OutWest

Michele4 said:


> So if i got this right, no high value treat with other dog in the house. Best if left alone with it. My 4 month old just did this the other day, he had a pigs ear growled when the other dogs approached him, did not growl at me just ran from me , scared me because he had never done this before. Luckily i did trade it for another snack and threw it away. He's teething now lost 4 teeth in the past 3 days that i know of, so i wanted him to have something to chew on. I think ill stick to the small treats for now at least he knows where they are coming from.


I'm not sure if having multiple dogs means no high value treats unless alone Maybe others have done it successfully. If so, I'd like to know how. I just don't want to create a situation that results in problems.


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## Millie'sMom

OutWest said:


> I'm not sure if having multiple dogs means no high value treats unless alone Maybe others have done it successfully. If so, I'd like to know how. I just don't want to create a situation that results in problems.


When I give a high value treat to my goldens they both get the exact same thing. Usually after awhile, they will switch with each other. Neither will take from the other, they just wait until the other is also ready to switch. I don't if being mother and daughter makes a differece.

However, about 3 weeks ago, I gave them both a beef marrow bone. The older one (6) sniffed at the younger ones (2) bone, and the younger golden lifted her lip and growled, they were sharing a bed at the time. I guess Mom had had enough of her cheeky daughter and let her have it. She didn't hurt her or even touch her, but she sure did tell her off, and I would be very surprised if that puppy tried to resource guard anything for a very long time. But after reading about how high value a bully stick is, I don't think I will try them with my 2.


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## kwhit

MercyMom said:


> It seems to me that resource guarding in Goldens in becomming an epidemic.


All breeds of dogs resource guard. It just seems to be happening more, IMO, because of all that alpha cr*p, (sorry, JMO), people are buying into. We'd resource guard, too if anyone tried to take a "high value" food from us. I would, anyway. Think about it...imagine eating your absolute favorite food and after a couple of bites, someone comes up to you and tries to take it away. What would you do? But if that same person offered you your other favorite food in it's place, you would probably go along with it, right? 

Personally, I've never felt the need to bug my dogs when they were eating or chewing on a bone. I'll walk by them, (they've always ate in the kitchen), but I don't try to pet them. I leave them alone. And...I have never had a problem with taking anything away when I felt that what they had would hurt them or they shouldn't have it in the first place, (which would be the only two reasons I can think of to take anything away from them).


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## Brave

kwhit said:


> Think about it...imagine eating your absolute favorite food and after a couple of bites, someone comes up to you and tries to take it away. What would you do? But if that same person offered you your other favorite food in it's place, you would probably go along with it, right?


/Starts Imagining.....

I'm sitting at my table, with a steaming plate of delicious spaghetti, smothered in delicate marinara sauce with beautiful mushrooms and mouth-watering meatballs. I take a bite, savoring the cacophony of flavors that explode in my mouth. My eyes close in appreciation. A few moments pass, and I open my eyes to discover *RA ROO?* my plate is GONE! 

I would be on the offensive, for sure.


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## willows pack

We had resource guarding very early with stupid items like a kleenex so we had to be very diligent. Hand feeding and trades and eye contact and approaching the bowl with great things and all those worked. I never tried a bully stick but we tried a bone at maybe 5 months and that got a similar reaction so we shelved bones until we felt she was better with the trust and trade.

Just a few weeks ago I introduced a bone again as we've seen great progress..She is now 11 months...I let her carry it from the store and we had no issue. A few hours in I approached and there was a glimmer of a possible growl but she stopped herself and I traded her the bone for a treat and have since let her have it for a few sessions and always trade it back. 

I have hsd to be extra diligent because of the early resource guarding but you probably don't need to be as much so...I'd work on trade, eye contact and what others suggested. For dinner I probably wouldn't remove the bowl...only approach with extra goodies...you want them to feel comfortable with their dinner and don't want to breed resource guarding that isn't there.


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## Selli-Belle

Resource guarding is an interesting topic and dogs do vary on if they will resource guard and over what. Pig Ears and Bully Sticks are common triggers and they are what I use to test dogs for my dog park. Some dogs are great with anything but pig ears and bully stick, but can't be given those things.

For your dog, I would not give any bully sticks or pig ears. Although dogs love them, they don't need them. Work on trading, "leave it" and general obedience in an upbeat positive way. The more training you do, the better the communication will be between the two of you.

I think that although resource guarding can be considered natural for all dogs, it is and should and can be something that breeders breed away from, especially in Goldens. Think about the function of the breed which is to happily and naturally deliver to hand a dead bird, the very opposite of resource guarding.


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## stealle

cubbysan said:


> The only time in Brady's six years that he showed any aggression was when he was 6 months and I gave him a "high valued" bully stick. My daughter went to step over him, and he bit her really good. I immediately put him in his crate,


^^^ Yes, this is exactly what I'm concerned about happening with my children or their friends that might be in our house. I want to nip "resource guarding" in the bud. 



Selli-Belle said:


> Think about the function of the breed which is to happily and naturally deliver to hand a dead bird, the very opposite of resource guarding.


^^^ Excellent point! That's one of many reasons why Goldens are my favorite breed. They are usually people friendly to the extreme. At least, that has always been my experience with them. Including my 10 yr old Sadie. She doesn't have a mean bone in her body and with gladly drop whatever high value item she has in her mouth for a scratch behind the ears.


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## laprincessa

kwhit said:


> All breeds of dogs resource guard. It just seems to be happening more, IMO, because of all that alpha cr*p, (sorry, JMO), people are buying into. We'd resource guard, too if anyone tried to take a "high value" food from us. I would, anyway. Think about it...imagine eating your absolute favorite food and after a couple of bites, someone comes up to you and tries to take it away. What would you do? But if that same person offered you your other favorite food in it's place, you would probably go along with it, right?
> 
> Personally, I've never felt the need to bug my dogs when they were eating or chewing on a bone. I'll walk by them, (they've always ate in the kitchen), but I don't try to pet them. I leave them alone. And...I have never had a problem with taking anything away when I felt that what they had would hurt them or they shouldn't have it in the first place, (which would be the only two reasons I can think of to take anything away from them).



Thank you! Very well written, exactly what I've often thought.


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## stealle

kwhit said:


> Personally, I've never felt the need to bug my dogs...


This has nothing to do with wanting to _intentionally_ "bug" them while eating. I don't feel a need to do that. The question is more about how to condition the dog not to resource guard so they don't bite when _unintentionally_ bugged. Such as (above) when cubbysan's daughter got bit by Brady. That's a perfect example of what can happen when someone innocently gets too close. 

I think comparisons between people and dogs is like apples and oranges. But, if you must... What would I do if someone took my favorite meal? Well, I wouldn't bite or hit them. Perhaps, I would have gotten more angry when I was a child. But, I learned that if someone approaches me while eating it is highly unlikely they are going to steal my food and if they did I'd be better off if I didn't fight over it. There have been lots of good suggestions here. Hopefully I can help Ollie realize that his high value treats will not be stolen even when someone unintentionally gets too close.


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## beemerdog

After googling "bully sticks" all I can say is EEEEEuuuuuwww:yuck::yuck::yuck::yuck:. 

It's a good thing that Summer don't like the hard treats.


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## stealle

Yeah. Totally disgusting!

But, I bet Summer would go for it. I don't have any more bully sticks. The two I bought went to Ollie. My old girl Sadie turns up her nose to hard toys and chews but I think I'll buy a couple more to see if she likes them.


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## Brave

Bear says, "mmmmmmmm bull penis."


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## laprincessa

Maybe I just see thing differently than others, but it seems to me that if there's a problem with bully sticks, don't give bully sticks!

If this "resource guarding" has only occurred with this particular treat, remove the treat!


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## kwhit

stealle said:


> When my wife tried to pet him, he thought she was trying to take it away...I grabbed him by the scruff and took it away...I would take it away for a few seconds and give it back, repeatedly...I also take his food bowl away in the middle of some of his meals and then give it back.





stealle said:


> This has nothing to do with wanting to _intentionally_ "bug" them while eating. I don't feel a need to do that.


I think the first quote contradicts the second quote. I wouldn't have even tried to pet him while he was eating the bully stick and I can honestly say I have _never_ messed around with their food bowls while my dogs eat. Maybe if you hadn't been doing that all along, he wouldn't have felt the need to guard his bully stick. Hopefully you won't do that anymore. 

Personally, I agree with not giving him bully sticks for now and give less valuable treats. And do what BriGuy suggested...*"Something I did for a long time was if Cookie was chewing a marrow bone or something of very high value, I would leave her alone, but every so often, I would walk close and throw a piece of cheese. Eventually, the dog associates you approaching with something great about to happen." * 

And you know what...you don't have to be "Alpha dog" to him, you just need to be a great teacher.


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## stealle

kwhit said:


> I think the first quote contradicts the second quote. I wouldn't have even tried to pet him while he was eating the bully stick and I can honestly say I have _never_ messed around with their food bowls while my dogs eat. Maybe if you hadn't been doing that all along, he wouldn't have felt the need to guard his bully stick. Hopefully you won't do that anymore.


Yes. I intentionally took food away *briefly then returned* as a training method; not for fun. With the purpose of teaching the dog not to guard and food will be returned. I'm not coming up with this stuff on my own. Many of the most well know dog trainers suggest things such as taking a puppies food bowl away (just briefly, maybe 10-20 seconds) and putting your hand in the food bowl while eating. It gets them use to this while they are pups and can't hurt you. This worked out great with my 10 yr old golden and is also working out great so far with Ollie (aside from the bully stick incident.) 

Further, you quoted what I was doing in my first post. I posted here because I had some doubts that what I was doing was the best thing to do. The reason I posted here was to tell people what I WAS doing, ask for advice, and learn what people are doing what has worked for them with Goldens specifically. Since reading so many good suggestions, I will certainly change what I was doing, but I don't think I need to completely stop everything I was doing before. 

I want to thank ALL of you for your suggestions. To start, Ollie won't be getting any bully sticks in the near future. I will stop taking food away for now, but will continue putting my hand in the food bowl. I will also start doing most of the things mentioned in these great suggestions:



Ada's Mom said:


> What I did was get some chicken and hotdogs and when I approached her while she was chewing on the high value item I gave her some chicken or hotdog and then took the high value item away. I did that a few times a day for about a week and was able to take it away without a trade after that.





cubbysan said:


> The only time in Brady's six years that he showed any aggression was when he was 6 months and I gave him a "high valued" bully stick. My daughter went to step over him, and he bit her really good.... I did not give him another bully stick until he was about a year old. I can take anything out of his mouth now.





BriGuy said:


> ... read the book "Mine" when she was a puppy to familiarize myself with the issue since it seems so common. It is a great book to follow.
> 
> Something I did for a long time was if Cookie was chewing a marrow bone or something of very high value, I would leave her alone, but every so often, I would walk close and throw a piece of cheese. Eventually, the dog associates you approaching with something great about to happen.





OutWest said:


> You're wise to address this now, but I wouldn't think of it as an alpha issue, just a trust one. And I'd make sure that everyone is your household is able to take something away from your dog, not just you. Your wife, kids, etc., should all be able to.
> 
> One thing I did with Tucker as a puppy that was helpful was to give a bit of food in his bowl, then reach down and add more, etc. he learned that the hand coming toward his food usually meant MORE good stuff.





Brave said:


> Every meal for the past three-four days we've been doing a combination of hand-feeding, food aversion (where you don't let the animal have the food in your hand until they stop trying to get it and relax), and eye contact. I'll hold a handfull of food in my closed fist, once Bear has relaxed and is sitting or lying down, I will drop the food in the empty bowl and ask him to wait. As soon as he gives me eye contact, I'll release him and let him eat. Rinse and repeat approx 10 times per meal. I think it's helping him understand that if he listens to me, he'll get the food he wants faster.
> 
> We're also making him practice good manners when playing fetch. He has to drop the toy (we give him a treat for that, so it's more of a trade), then he has to sit and look at me before I'll throw it again. No jumping on me. No trying to snatch the toy out of my hand.





MercyMom said:


> I did some research online and found out that the best remedy is getting your pup to willingly give it up by giving him something even more appetizing. Or you can give the bully stick back after he has traded it for a treat, so he can trust you. Anger and dominance doesn't work with Goldens. Goldens need positive encouragement.





Charliethree said:


> I would strongly suggest putting the bully sticks away (they ARE super high value items for a lot of dogs and you don't want him to 'practice' the behavior, even by someone being unintentionally close to him when he has it) until you have had time to work at teaching him to trade for other items of lesser value for quite awhile. Include the children in the training as well, he will need to learn that 'trading' applies with the kids as well.





willows pack said:


> Hand feeding and trades and eye contact and approaching the bowl with great things and all those worked.





Selli-Belle said:


> For your dog, I would not give any bully sticks or pig ears. Although dogs love them, they don't need them. Work on trading, "leave it" and general obedience in an upbeat positive way. The more training you do, the better the communication will be between the two of you.
> 
> I think that although resource guarding can be considered natural for all dogs, it is and should and can be something that breeders breed away from, especially in Goldens. Think about the function of the breed which is to happily and naturally deliver to hand a dead bird, the very opposite of resource guarding.


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## kwhit

stealle said:


> Yes. I intentionally took food away *briefly then returned* as a training method; not for fun. With the purpose of teaching the dog not to guard and food will be returned...Many of the most well know dog trainers suggest things such as taking a puppies food bowl away (just briefly, maybe 10-20 seconds) and putting your hand in the food bowl while eating.


What it teaches him by taking his food away is to _not_ trust you around his food. This actually makes a pup worse with their resource guarding. I don't care how well known these trainers are, doing this could make a puppy _start_ guarding their food or will make one that already does it, worse. 



stealle said:


> It gets them use to this while they are pups and can't hurt you. This worked out great with my 10 yr old golden and is also working out great so far with Ollie (aside from the bully stick incident...


What it does is make for a distrusting puppy which will become a distrusting adult and it didn't work for Ollie...the bully stick incident proved that. I'm glad that you won't be taking his food away anymore. If you still insist on putting your hand in his food bowl, (silly method IMO), at least when you do it leave something like tiny cubes of cheese or pieces of hotdog in his bowl. At least that will show him that hands in or near his bowl mean that good things happen and are not there just to bother him while he's eating.


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## Brave

kwhit said:


> What it teaches him by taking his food away is to _not_ trust you around his food. This actually makes a pup worse with their resource guarding. I don't care how well known these trainers are, doing this could make a puppy _start_ guarding their food or will make one that already does it, worse.
> 
> 
> 
> What it does is make for a distrusting puppy which will become a distrusting adult and it didn't work for Ollie...the bully stick incident proved that. I'm glad that you won't be taking his food away anymore. If you still insist on putting your hand in his food bowl, (silly method IMO), at least when you do it leave something like tiny cubes of cheese or pieces of hotdog in his bowl. At least that will show him that hands in or near his bowl mean that good things happen and are not there just to bother him while he's eating.


Hello! 

What is your opinion on what we're doing with Bear? We make him "wait" before releasing him to eat. Would this breed distrust?


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## Wendi

It makes me wonder about people when they compare the way a dog thinks to how humans think. :doh:


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## laprincessa

Wendi said:


> It makes me wonder about people when they compare the way a dog thinks to how humans think. :doh:


Don't you think it's just common sense that any living creature will learn distrust if things are constantly being taken away? You don't think that would be confusing?


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## Bentleysmom

I have to agree. With all of the rescue dogs that I've had I have never taken food away or put my hand in their dish. They had rough lives and the first thing I want to teach them is that they can trust me 100%...100% of the time.
I have approached the dish only to drop good treats in while they're eating but under no circumstance would I ever steal food from them because that's not teaching trust. After I have their trust I can teach them anything but without trust all you're left with is a wary dog.
Even though Bentley was a puppy when I got him and didn't have trust issues, I still give him the same respect. When my dogs eat they eat in separate rooms and they know without a doubt that what is in their bowl is only for them.
Doing it this way has been very successful for me. Ky was half starving when I got her because she was only fed occasionally, because she trusts me I, or anybody else, could walk up and take her food away while she's eating and she wouldn't do a thing about it. The question is...why would I want to do that???


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## kwhit

Brave said:


> What is your opinion on what we're doing with Bear? We make him "wait" before releasing him to eat. Would this breed distrust?


I don't think it would cause mistrust, but I've never done it myself. I don't go through doors first, I don't make them wait for their food, they're allowed on my bed and whatever furniture they want to be on...I just never felt the need to do anything different with any dog I've had. I don't think they're bad things, I just believe that you don't have to throw your weight around for a dog to respect you. And anything I've ever asked my dogs to do, they've done it. 

I've never had a dog resource guard anything, ever. That includes a 5 lb. roast that one of my Danes took from the counter. He dropped it when I came in the room. I picked up the roast, praised him for dropping it, then the incident was over. 

Lucy growls while she's doing things she doesn't want to do, but she still does them. It doesn't bother me at all. That's the way she expresses herself. Maybe someone else would scream "AGGRESSION!" but it's not like that with her. IDK, maybe I've just been lucky with all the dogs I've had over the years, but I don't think I'll ever change how I do things. But...what's worked for me might not be the way to go for someone else and their dog. I do firmly believe, though, that for _all_ dogs, screwing around with a dog when they're eating is _not_ the way to build trust or prevent resource guarding. It will have the opposite effect.


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## solinvictus

"I think comparisons between people and dogs is like apples and oranges. But, if you must... What would I do if someone took my favorite meal? Well, I wouldn't bite or hit them. Perhaps, I would have gotten more angry when I was a child."

Your pup Ollie is a 3 month old pup. The bully stick was a very high valued item. His instinct to protect what was his kicked in. He wasn't thinking like an adult, he wasn't thinking like a child, he was reacting to his instincts. He hasn't been taught enough not to want to protect high valued items yet. 
The teaching comes by practicing/training with items that are not important to him. If we use high value items before they understand the rules we set them up to fail and they practice inappropriate behavior. By getting to practice the inappropriate behavior in a real situation such as what happened with the bully stick the dog will make the wrong decision.


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## solinvictus

"It makes me wonder about people when they compare the way a dog thinks to how humans think. :doh: "

I do use analogies with small children in comparison to pups often.

If you have a 14 month old child having a tantrum you cannot reason with them. They don't know any better.
If you have a 3 month old pup and one of their natural instincts kick in (think tantrum) you cannot reason with them.  they don't know any better yet.


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## solinvictus

"What is your opinion on what we're doing with Bear? We make him "wait" before releasing him to eat. Would this breed distrust?"

I think this is totally different. The pup or dog does not have the bowl/item as of yet. You are teaching a form of impulse control. There would be no reason to distrust you as you are giving them something good.


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## Brave

kwhit said:


> I don't think it would cause mistrust, but I've never done it myself. I don't go through doors first, I don't make them wait for their food, they're allowed on my bed and whatever furniture they want to be on...I just never felt the need to do anything different with any dog I've had. I don't think they're bad things, I just believe that you don't have to throw your weight around for a dog to respect you. And anything I've ever asked my dogs to do, they've done it.
> 
> I've never had a dog resource guard anything, ever. That includes a 5 lb. roast that one of my Danes took from the counter. He dropped it when I came in the room. I picked up the roast, praised him for dropping it, then the incident was over.
> 
> Lucy growls while she's doing things she doesn't want to do, but she still does them. It doesn't bother me at all. That's the way she expresses herself. Maybe someone else would scream "AGGRESSION!" but it's not like that with her. IDK, maybe I've just been lucky with all the dogs I've had over the years, but I don't think I'll ever change how I do things. But...what's worked for me might not be the way to go for someone else and their dog. I do firmly believe, though, that for _all_ dogs, screwing around with a dog when they're eating is _not_ the way to build trust or prevent resource guarding. It will have the opposite effect.


I let Bear go through doors before me, and walk ahead of me on the lead. He's allowed anywhere we would be. He got a bit possessive over a Kong, so we're working with the hand feeding and the waiting to try to convince him that yes, we really are in charge of the food. He's pretty good with drop it and leave it (not this morning though - the brat). I just want to make sure we're not accidently shooting ourselves in the foot with making him wait for food. I'm beginning to ask for eye contact before the bowl goes down. Eventually, I'd like teach him the trick where you put the cookie on his nose and he waits to eat it. I think that would be the coolest thing EVER!


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## Brave

solinvictus said:


> "What is your opinion on what we're doing with Bear? We make him "wait" before releasing him to eat. Would this breed distrust?"
> 
> I think this is totally different. The pup or dog does not have the bowl/item as of yet. You are teaching a form of impulse control. There would be no reason to distrust you as you are giving them something good.


Oh yes, his impulse control needs ALOT of work, but I understand that he's a puppy and it will take time. IMHO, better for us to work on it now, then when he's 60-80 pounds.


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## solinvictus

Here is a video that works on impulse control.


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## Discoverer

stealle said:


> ... So what am I doing wrong?


This is what you're doing wrong: 



stealle said:


> I didn't let him win. I grabbed him by the scruff and took it away.
> 
> I also take his food bowl away in the middle of some of his meals and then give it back.


Forget everything you've ever heard about the "alpha dog", "pack lead", etc. Let him win - build his confidence, DO NOT EVER TOUCH his bowl while his eating, that thing alone can provoke the resource guarding. Make sure your dog see you as a giver, not as a taker. If you need to take something away from him, don't just grab it, but exchange. Also go through this forum, you'll find lots of conversations on this subject, spend some time and read them all. Good luck!


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## beemerdog

*"What is your opinion on what we're doing with Bear? We make him "wait" before releasing him to eat. Would this breed distrust?"

*I too make Summer wait until after her dish is filled and the OK is given. She now waits without being told before she even approches her dish. That followed through to her cookie in the evening.

Summer, without being taught always asks permission before getting on the couch.

This is something we taught all of our dogs when I was growing up and they all turned out rather patient.


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## stealle

kwhit said:


> ... I don't make them wait for their food, they're allowed on my bed and whatever furniture they want to be on...I just never felt the need to do anything different with any dog I've had.
> 
> I've never had a dog resource guard anything, ever. That includes a 5 lb. roast that one of my Danes took from the counter. He dropped it when I came in the room. I picked up the roast, praised him for dropping it, then the incident was over.


It seems that you treat your dogs as another person in the family. I also think Sadie (and now Ollie) are members of the family, but they are also pets, not people. Meaning they are going to have different rules and expectations. My dogs are not allowed on furniture or our bed. Sadie is very content on her own bed and her choice of carpet or tile. Perhaps, this sounds mean to you. Don't misunderstand. My wife pampers her and my children hug and play with her frequently each day. Sadie is getting old. She seems extremely happy and healthy (almost like a puppy at times), but I don't expect her to live more than another year or two based on average life expectancy of Goldens. My eyes well up with tears if I think about it too long. So she gets lots of love from me too. 

Sadie would never touch a 5lb roast even if it was at eye level and left alone with it. A few times I forgot and left a plate (once a small portion of steak another time a slice of pizza) on the coffee table for an entire afternoon. She never touched it. I wouldn't have been upset if she did. I don't even have quite that high of expectations. However, I do expect her to have enough control to leave it alone if I left the room for a couple minutes.


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## kwhit

stealle said:


> It seems that you treat your dogs as another person in the family.


I am well aware they're not people, but they are definitely members of my family. 



stealle said:


> Sadie would never touch a 5lb roast even if it was at eye level and left alone with it. However, I do expect her to have enough control to leave it alone if I left the room for a couple minutes.


That's wonderful...Chance will leave any food that happens to be left out alone, also. Lucy won't. All dogs are different. I would lay bets that the majority of dogs would have probably gone for the roast. I don't remember saying how long the roast was left in front of him, as a matter of fact, I don't even know myself. My mom had done it and she wasn't home when I got there.


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## Maggie May

This forum was originally about bully sticks so that is what my post is about and what I consider to be safe chew treats/toys. You can get 12" pizzle / bully sticks at Ocean State Job lot for $3 - $4 a stick depending on the brand. They have Bullwrinkles, which are $3, they are wrapped with plastic, and some have mold on them so check carefully. They also have their generic brand, which are not wrapped for $4, and they are made in America too. Sometimes they go on sale so I stock up. Neither one of them smells. I wash them before giving him one. Jack is never given a Bully stick unless we are in the same room with him. Not sure if Ocean State is countrywide [I live in Connecticut]. They have many natural dog treats cheap. HUGE pig's ears are $1, which I don't buy. My vet told me no antler bones or butcher bones due to lots of broken teeth. I had to toss the antler bone, never bought butcher bones. Also nylabones can break up and not pass thru the intestines, my vet has done many surgeries due to these toys – tossed those too. I have the larger rounded Kong toys, which I don't fill up because Jack can't get most of the stuff out but he likes to toss and play with them. Jack is a chew-a-holic. I like Tuffy toys, I get the ones rated 8 or above. I like the turtle, it has no squeaker. Once Jack locates a squeaker he tears the toy apart trying to get at it then I step in and remove it and all the stuffing. I find the squeakers dangerous since they are small enough to swallow but appear too large to pass. He has a lot of Tuffy toys that no longer have the stuffing but he still plays with them. I don't buy any with an open mouth like the shark and others, learned that the hard way! He can rip the mouth off in 15 minutes and then I pull the stuffing and squeakers out because I don't want a vet visit to remove both. Check out Chewy.com, they have most of the Tuffy toys with chew hardiness ratings and very helpful reviews. Tuffy prices are similar on Chewy and Amazon although I think Chewy has more of a selection. He loves his crate and still sleeps in it for 8 – 9 hours a night and he’s 17 months old! Yes we are spoiled. I never give him a treat or a toy in his crate. His crate is in our bedroom so I bought the Molly Mutt crate cover which comes in an assortment of sizes, colors and patterns and makes the crate look ‘pretty’ in our bedroom. The front and right side open so I only close the front one and since it’s near a wall the right side is permanently rolled up so he gets air and he’s not totally covered. If you read negative reviews about it shrinking it doesn’t if you wash it in cold water and don’t dry it. I am fortunate that I don’t work anymore and my husband works out of the house so one of us is usually here to supervise what he’s up to! Hope this info helps and it’s not TMI.


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## Maggie May

Hi Stealle - I agree that my dog, 2 cats and 2 parrots! are members of family but they are also animals. I do not allow Jackson to get on our bed, couch or other people furniture. [Our cats do nap on the bed] He has a protected cushioned bench in front of our dining room window, which he is allowed to lie/sit on, he loves looking outside and also barking at people walking by the house, I do my best to discourage his protective barking. [I've never had a Goldie guard dog before but then Jack is 'unique' in too many ways to list]

If other people want to sleep with their dogs that's ok too. We did let our Shih Tzu Zackary sleep on our king bed but he was only 14 pounds and slept in between us there was plenty of room for the 3 of us plus he had hair not fur so he didn't shed. He just passed a month ago and even thou he was almost 16 years old and it was his time to leave us I will always miss him. Anyway, back to the topic, I'm impressed that your dogs won't touch food on the counter, Jackson is 16 months old and still in the training mode, and we HAVE to put food in the middle of our island! Great job training your dogs.

I realize your post was a few years ago so you may not see my response.

If you have any suggestions concerning Jackson's digestive issues please share. 

Maggie

PS Jackson is a crate lover and sleeps in it every night for 8-9 hours, we have a Molly Mutt cover for it which makes it look 'pretty' I highly recommend it [Amazon]. We leave the side panel open all the time so the crate is not totally covered, the front panel is closed at bedtime so he can't see at us he sleeps better that way. It's in our bedroom, we leave the door open during the day, and he'll go in it and sometimes take naps during the day. I realize not every dog is a crate lover.


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