# Another Article Thread



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I didn't want to totally hijack the other thread so I'm starting a new one. I so badly wanted to start force to pile today. So I decided to start articles instead because I don't want to start FTP until articles are solid.

I'm starting this thread to share "when things don't go as planned." I've always loved teaching articles to my dogs because it starts out so easy and you see so much progess so fast. Flip didn't turn out to be that way at first....

I started out how I've done every other dog. Dog finds article with cheese, licks it off, I give retrieve command and dog bring article he's been licking. Except when I told Flip to fetch, he took his mouth off the article he was licking and grabbed the article next to it. I kept trying to redirect him, but time after time he wanted to grab the article next to the scented one.

So I tied some articles down. And he still went for the wrong article after he was done licking. And he would tug and tug and tug (ripped off one of the ties). I didn't like the way that was going, so I needed to come up with a third plan.

I went back to only one article. I decided to just keep repeating over and over with one article until he knew automatically to retrieve the article as soon as he was done licking without a retrieve command from me. Once he was doing that successfully I moved the cheesed article back with the tied down articles. This time he did it perfectly....on my command to "find it" he ran out, sniffed the articles, licked off the one with cheese, and then immediately grabbed it and brought it to me. I did a few reps like that and then stopped for the night.

Tomorrow I will do those same steps and if he is successful with that I will untie the articles and go back to using Around the Clock. What I like about Around the Clock is it teaches the dog to search in a pattern and it uses a full set of articles from day one. Can't really do that too easily if they're tied down.

And if anyone is still reading I'll let you know how tomorrow goes...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Thanks for the update. Please do keep us posted on your progress. I'm not long to start Slater on them so this'll be interested. 
You know I have had the mixed feelings about FTP or articles first. I've decided with puppy I'm not going to sweat it. I'm gonna train them how they come and that's that. We'll see how it goes! HAHA
99% of FTP doesn't actually occur in the pile. It happens on the way there and before the dog even leaves the handler. Whereas 99% of articles happens IN the pile and nowhere else. I think the dog's mind set is different. Hey maybe if I think positive, FTP will cause a quicker dash to the articles


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Hey maybe if I think positive, FTP will cause a quicker dash to the articles


Flip was so excited he was giving me the "border collie" hunch and stare at the pile. Colby's always given me a flat out run to the articles. He loves his articles so much that once he climbed on top of a crate, grabbed his article bag, and started pulling out articles! Annabel did a happy little bounce out to the pile (I never showed her in utility though, just trained her for it). Conner's always been more of a trot out, but he never has been crazy about close up retrieves anyway.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I still have a good bit of proofing with the dumbell for Slater and I haven't had him fetch the metal articles yet. Our obedience is behind. 
He is through FF for field work and doing great. Went out yesterday and did a stick fetch session for the first time which was very cool. Anyhoo I'm rambling. LOL


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Nice. I wish I could say I was starting Scout soon but I don't have articles and I am worried about sizing her at 13 months....


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I'm just using Annabel's old articles for now. You could always see if you can find an old cheap set to use for now.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dooley is giving me a bit of trouble with the metal articles. I am having to go back and actually force him on it. I can get him to take it from the hand as I lower it, but as soon as it is on the ground he won't pick it up. Any thoughts?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I had major problems getting Conner to take metal. I had to go all the way back through all the steps I did when first teaching a retrieve and FF.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ya, I think that is what I am going to have to do with Doo. He can be a stubborn boy sometimes


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Do you all start with metal because of this?


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

That is why I do it, I have never had a dog refuse the leather article. I always have to spend a little more time on metal.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

DNL2448 said:


> Dooley is giving me a bit of trouble with the metal articles. I am having to go back and actually force him on it. I can get him to take it from the hand as I lower it, but as soon as it is on the ground he won't pick it up. Any thoughts?


I don't FF, but I'm wondering if maybe there are some smaller steps between taking from your hand as you lower it and on the ground. Will he take it if you're holding it such that one bell is on the ground and the other in your hand? Or will he take it if your hand is flat on the ground w/ the DB on it?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I don't FF, but I'm wondering if maybe there are some smaller steps between taking from your hand as you lower it and on the ground. Will he take it if you're holding it such that one bell is on the ground and the other in your hand? Or will he take it if your hand is flat on the ground w/ the DB on it?


Also, I found with Slater he had a problem with picking the dumbell up from the ground if I was not touching it AND I had my hand in his collar and fingers around his ear. If I had a hand on the dumbell OR if I threw the dumbell he would do it. For some reason he thought I was holding him back. Have you tried throwing the metal article, like a retrieve, then ear pinching if he does not pick it up? Yes that is skipping steps but if he is thoroughly FF'd to other objects he should understand what is happening.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Do you all start with metal because of this?


Two reasons I know of to start with metal first:

1. Leather has a strong scent of it's own, so it's easier to teach the dog to recognize your scent on metal first.

2. Most dogs really enjoy putting leather things in their mouth, and they will more naturally gravitate towards the leather than the metal initially. Which brings me to this morning's update....

I can't believe I totally forgot about Flip's leather obsession. Since he was seven weeks old, nothing leather has been safe in my house.

This morning's session started out great. First day protocol calls for starting with just the scented metal article first. Then you add one unscented. Then two unscented. Every time you resend the dog you add another unscented article. Once all the metal is out you start adding the leather in one by one until you have a pile of 10 unscented and one metal scented.

Everything went great until I put the first leather article out. Flip was determined to get that leather in his mouth. Like I said, total leather obsession. I kept trying to get him to leave the leather alone, but I might as well have set kitty poo out there.

So I think I'm going to go back to tie down for a little while. Although with his persistence I might have to tie down to a thick piece of plywood!

I tied a few articles down already but don't want to work him again yet. Will give another update tonight.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Also, I found with Slater he had a problem with picking the dumbell up from the ground if I was not touching it AND I had my hand in his collar and fingers around his ear. If I had a hand on the dumbell OR if I threw the dumbell he would do it. For some reason he thought I was holding him back. Have you tried throwing the metal article, like a retrieve, then ear pinching if he does not pick it up? Yes that is skipping steps but if he is thoroughly FF'd to other objects he should understand what is happening.


Hey, you may be on to something, I'll try that today.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I was reminded today of the part of starting out articles that I hate - the raw hands I get from repeatedly scenting metal.

Did the articles tied down twice today. It's going well. Not as great as it went with my other 3, but I don't see any major problems either. I guess if it were the same with every dog then training would get boring. And I have a couple of years before it needs to be competition ready.

Right now there's three leather tied down, two metal tied down, and the scented metal. I'll probably add one more of each article tonight.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Last update of the night.

I'm sure everyone's already bored with this thread but at least I'll have a written record of my progress. 

The first two sends this time were perfect. I told myself if he got it right the third time I'd jackpot and quit for the night (I've also decided I want to introduce the jackpot concept now). So of course he didn't do it right. But it wasn't too bad. He sniffed some articles, licked off the cheese, started to come back to me, but within three steps turned around and went and immediately scooped up the right article. I told myself I wanted two right in a row and I would jackpot. The next two were perfect again, so we're done for the night


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sounds like he's getting it, good job! I tried tossing the metal article for Doo tonight and we had success, not perfect, but it was a start, him picking up and bringing it back. Right now I just want to concentrate on him having fun, making it a game. Thanks for the thread it has helped us too!!!


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Wow reading through the two threads there sure are alot of ways to teach articles. I guess I was very fortunate to train and travel with my instructor. She has a more old fashioned approach that works just about every time. Titan has missed one article ever and I believe that was from the articles being in the motel room while they were descenting the room. I will never make that mistake again... Good luck with training!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Michelle, can you share with us your method? I've heard so many I don't know what "old fashioned" is any more! 
My problem is not seeing how to teach them what is right, it is what to do when they come up with the wrong one. I am constantly conflicted about what to do. There is a balance at conveying that that's the wrong one vs. totally demotivating, confusing or letting the dog get reliant on your actions before he commits to the exercise. ACK! With Fisher I have always instantly met him as he returned, if he got a wrong one, and sent him right back to the pile after taking it from him. This made the most sense to me.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> My problem is not seeing how to teach them what is right, it is what to do when they come up with the wrong one..


I always immedieately tell them no and go get the article from them. That comes from Connie Cleveland, who believes the dog should not have to guess the whole way back if they're right or wrong.If the dog misses more than once I will tie all the unscented articles in pairs. That way when they grab the wrong one the weight of the other one will pull back and I give a "oops." Got that from Dave Gannon. It's worked wonderfully for my other dogs, but I have a feeling it won't have much punch for Flip, he'll probably just bring back two articles without thinking about it.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

oh and I've always heard the "never correct in the pile," but for me freezing in the pile or coming back without an article is failure to retrieve and I treat it as such. I take them by the collar, bring them to the correct article, and command "find it!" I use my judgement on whether or not I should use an ear pinch along with it for that particular time. I have never seen it have a negative effect on my dogs. Quite the opposite, they go out much more eagerly and confidently on the next send.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> I always immedieately tell them no and go get the article from them. That comes from Connie Cleveland, who believes the dog should not have to guess the whole way back if they're right or wrong.


That's what I've done with Fisher. I don't understand people who make the dog come all the way back and even front if they have the wrong article. That's like letting the dog jump the right jump when you signaled for left.

Do you vary your praise with the correct one, either immediately or halfway back or make them front then praise? Or are you consistent? 
My biggest problem now is slow returns from the article pile. I would say maybe one out of every 20 times Fisher might get a wrong one so I don't worry about that so much, it's the slow returns in the ring that kills me.
Granted I have not been working him much in obedience and I think when I get back to training regularly I will work on a flexi and see if I can get a faster return. Thinking out loud here.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I almost always wait until they are back to me to praise. I don't always make them front though. Sometimes I'll praise when they're in touching distance and go ahead and take the article without the front. The only time I ever praise early is if the dog has been having a really tough time and finally gets it right (Conner totally stresses out when the wind blows during articles - it's been our biggest struggle).


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> (Conner totally stresses out when the wind blows during articles - it's been our biggest struggle).


LOL -- this sounds like me during tracking! I think the dog could care less but honest to God I have been known to yell at the wind while tracking!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I decided tonight I would try having Flip do articles for his dinner. He knew it was dinner time, so he was very excited to work. A little too excited. He went bounding out full speed and articles went flying everywhere. He was crazy. He did them, but was too crazy for me.

I did them again after he ate his dinner and it went much better. He was still happy and full of energy but not out of control, articles flying everywhere energy.

Now my dilemma is deciding what to do about his fronts. I don't want to start nagging fronts on him this early in the game, but I also can't stand just letting him come in so crooked. He's okay on recalls but with something in his mouth he tends to angle too much and sit too far back. I think I need to find him a front box or something to make him come in straight while I work fronts seperately.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Remember, when teaching something new, break it into parts. I wouldn't worry or even ask for fronts until his pile work is where you want it to be. Maybe kneel down when he returns to give him a different picture than the formal one which will come later.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> .
> 
> Now my dilemma is deciding what to do about his fronts. I don't want to start nagging fronts on him this early in the game, but I also can't stand just letting him come in so crooked. He's okay on recalls but with something in his mouth he tends to angle too much and sit too far back. I think I need to find him a front box or something to make him come in straight while I work fronts seperately.


Jodi
I went to the shoots. I used them on every retrieve for awhile and kept moving in the sides to get them narrow. After awhile he had the best fronts and no worries coming in. I do go back to them every once in a awhile just to "remind" him of front.
Michelle


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

Gosh, there seem to be so many different ways to teach this! I have actually retired this exercise until I can take some private lessons and have more time to practise in the summer. Casey started to take just any article because he hoped for a treat. Or else he would take one and them stop and stare at me, hoping for a response. I don't want to screw up this exercise, so am working on all of the other utility exercises that he seem to understand!!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Sent him three times today. Did each one great - yay! I'm up to a full set now, and I'll probably add the extra two on tomorrow. I also need to start scenting leather.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Thought I'd update how we're doing. I think it was Monday of last week that I tried scenting a leather article. He did fine finding it, but as soon as it was in his mouth it became a leather chomp fest. 

So we've been taking some time off of scenting articles to practice holding leather properly. I didn't want to have to correct him for mouthing after he'd taken the right article, so all the other articles were put up and we've just been isolating the problem.

Tonight we went back to scenting. I pick up right where we left off - a full set of articles tied down, putting one scented with a small bit of squirt cheese on the dowel. He did great with that, both leather and metal. So I repeated, but put just the tiniest dot of cheese and smeared it across the dowel so the scent was still there but it wasn't visible. He did those great too, so we jackpoted with the rest of his dinner.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

sounds like he's well on the way!
One of the things I think I did "wrong" with Tito is I think I took too long to have someone else scent the other articles. FWIW. When he's consistently identifying your scent, have someone else scent the others so he learns he's looking for YOUR scent, not just A scent. But I'll bet you already know this


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

What I've always found interesting is you can put a big giant glob of cheese right on the top of the article, and the dogs will still go out there and sniff the articles one at a time, not just look to find the one with cheese on it. 

It's been so long since I taught Annabel scent articles I can't remember if she did it like that but I remember for certain that Conner, Colby, and now Flip all went out there and put their nose down to sniff articles even when I could see the cheese way back from where I'm standing. I guess that's another example of how much they depend on their noses over their eyes.

Barb - yeah, I need to go ahead and get someone to scent the other articles for me. One of the downsides of training alone and living alone. My neighbors already think I'm kind of strange. I wonder how high up the strange meter I'll get if I bring over my cardboard full of attached articles and ask them to touch them all!:


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