# Reputable Breeders: Can you tell me why...



## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

I've been perusing various websites of golden retriever breeders and have noticed in their puppy contracts that their PET puppies are not to be spayed before 8-10 months of age and males are not to be neutered prior to 14-18 months of age or the health guarantee would be void. 

Is there a specific reason for this?? I know many veterinarians recommend early spay/neuter at around 6 months of age and cite many health benefits for female dogs to be spayed prior to their first heat cycle.

I was wondering if there was a developmental reason why breeders would not want their pet puppies spayed/neutered early.

Thanks in advance! :You_Rock_


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete

Here's some information that essentially covers the concerns. 

Lots of discussions on GRF as well.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

there are so so many pros and contras on this subject. The more I read the more I am inclined to hold off on spaying Rose until closer to 2 years. My hubby had one female pup back in the 70s and she was never spayed. She had one litter and lived to be 15. Also none of the male dogs have been neutered. 
Rose is fully AKC registered so if she does prove to be a good field working pup and passes all the certifications we may breed her at least one time - not for money. If not, we consider spaying her after couple "heat waves". 
Like you I would welcome more input from the GR forum members. One can never read enough different opinions to be even more confused than before


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## Deber (Aug 23, 2011)

As said above there are lots of post/threads about this in the "search". I have always spayed/neutered my dogs early, usually by 6 mo. but our breeder also suggested we hold off if we thought we could. We talked to our Vet, who surprisingly agreed and said that research was showing there were benefits to waiting until bones quit growing and harmones have a chance to mature before fixing. Honestly it never occured to us to wait, but we have. Kye is 1 1/2 and we will spay her around 2 yrs. Coop is just a bit over a year and we will hold off until he is at least 18 mo to 2 yrs to neuter. Honestly it has not been bad. When Kye had her first heat, we moved Coop to a nice kennel in our neighborhood for the 3 wks. Kye is due to come in any time again so Coop will be moved this time to our friends house where Coop's best buddy lives for the weeks needed. With a bit of planning it has not been a big problem.

Hopefully waiting for the kids to grow and mature will be the right decision and we are almost at that point


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## o0Shaz0o (Aug 21, 2012)

Deber, I just wanted to know if there were any issues holding off neutering male pups that I may not be thinking off? So obviously females come into heat which could be tricky for some owners. Anything equivalent for males? I am thinking of marking or humping behaviours? 

Thanks for raising this issue as I had NO idea I should be thinking about it!


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


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## CStrong73 (Jun 11, 2012)

o0Shaz0o said:


> Deber, I just wanted to know if there were any issues holding off neutering male pups that I may not be thinking off? So obviously females come into heat which could be tricky for some owners. Anything equivalent for males? I am thinking of marking or humping behaviours?
> 
> Thanks for raising this issue as I had NO idea I should be thinking about it!
> 
> ...


My vet mentioned that some males will start marking in the house and/or become escape artists when they mature and sense a female in heat somewhere nearby. I told him if that started to happen, I would reconsider, but for now we plan to wait until Rocket is 12-18 months.

The only dogs I've ever had who humped were females, believe it or not, and it had very little to do with anything sexual.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

o0Shaz0o said:


> Deber, I just wanted to know if there were any issues holding off neutering male pups that I may not be thinking off? So obviously females come into heat which could be tricky for some owners. Anything equivalent for males? I am thinking of marking or humping behaviours?
> 
> Thanks for raising this issue as I had NO idea I should be thinking about it!
> 
> ...


Train your dogs manners and correct/discourage inappropriate behaviors immediately when the pups start trying them out, and there shouldn't be any issues. 

Marking = housetraining issue. Unless it's involuntary or submissive dribble that happens with some dogs (especially females)... I react the same regardless of why my dog leaked inside. It's an accident and isn't allowed indoors. 

Mounting = Yes, they hump things when they are excited. As long as they stop when you tell them to knock it off, no big issue. Mounting people and other dogs is absolutely discouraged though. Even when we had two intact boys, when playfighting turned into mounting - that was the point where we stepped in and told them to break it up. And I have an even shorter limit when it comes to how my dogs interact with other people's dogs. 

This is training and management. 

If I didn't have the time, patience, or ability to keep an eye on our dogs and correct or control behaviors immediately - then we would neuter immediately. Just like our cats are neutered as soon as the vet gives the green light. There is absolutely no excuse for allowing dogs to accidentally breed. Despite what some people believe, intact male dogs do not spontaneously spawn puppies simply because they are intact.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Even though this is against the tide, I truly believe it can be much harder to manage an intact male than a neutered one for many people.


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## Molly's Mum (Apr 1, 2011)

I read a lot of threads and articles about spaying and came to the conclusion that it would be better to let Molly have two heat cycles before spaying. She has just recently had her second heat cycle so we'll be looking at having her spayed in the next couple of months. I am at home most of the day, we have a secure garden and no male dogs so managing Molly during her heat cycle was easy enough to do, a little inconvenient as we missed our walks but nothing too difficult. I can see the benefit of having it done early if you can't guarantee she won't have an unplanned pregnancy. Read a lot and then with that information make the decision that will be best for your circumstances.


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## mooselips (Dec 4, 2011)

In Bridget's contract, it says she is not to be spayed until 1 year old.
When asked why, I was told that if she is spayed before she is 1 year, she may not have her full growth potential.


In Bridget's mind, it's, Oh boy, let's make me taller so it's easier to surf the kitchen counters.


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## mickeychick (Jul 19, 2012)

This is interesting. I just made Libbies appointment to have her spayed on Oct 26th. She will be about 8 months old by then. I asked both my vet and a friend who is a vet about the benefits of waiting and they both said there is more benefit in waiting to neuter a male, but not so much with a female. I also phoned the breeder and she said the same thing. I have read a lot of the threads on here but I am still confused. Would it be beneficial to wait until she's had one heat and then have her spayed when she is about a year old? Would one heat make any difference?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I think this is an excellent summary of spay/neuter as it relates specifically to Golden Retrievers. Rhonda Hovan is a respected breeder/judge, and the health liason for the national club.

http://www.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/2...her_and_when_to_neuter_a_golden_retreiver.pdf

Apparently AKC has a podcast on this subject as well, on their website.


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## Altairss (Sep 7, 2012)

When I got Tink, I took her to my local spay clinic for her first shots. I have known and trusted this vet for over 25 years. She shows AKC, agility etc and has years of 4-H experince. If she was full service she would be my vet of choice. She started recommending going at least 7-9 months before spaying or neutering. 
If she knows you can handle the behaviors and are responsible she will recommend later as her own observations and new studies show that it is healthier for growth, etc if you can wait. She does still do all the spay and neuters for most of the area rescues and those are done fairly early and she does see a lot of them as they grow and she sees the unsual growth leg length, more incontience in quite a few of the big dogs. Not as much in the small dogs.

I am waiting with Tink I had lots of intact females and a few males while showing my shelties so I am comfortable with the wait. Not everyone is so do what will work the best in your situation.


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## Heart O'Gold (Jul 31, 2012)

Tahnee GR said:


> I think this is an excellent summary of spay/neuter as it relates specifically to Golden Retrievers. Rhonda Hovan is a respected breeder/judge, and the health liason for the national club.
> 
> http://www.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/2...her_and_when_to_neuter_a_golden_retreiver.pdf
> 
> Apparently AKC has a podcast on this subject as well, on their website.


Thank you for posting the article, it is very informative. I hope I used the quote feature correctly (first time trying it). I am so glad I found this forum and searched here for information on neutering. I had no idea that there were so many health benefits to waiting. I initially was going to neuter Bentley quite young. Now I have decided to wait at least a year. Thanks for the helpful information.


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## Otter (Feb 23, 2011)

Tahnee GR said:


> I think this is an excellent summary of spay/neuter as it relates specifically to Golden Retrievers. Rhonda Hovan is a respected breeder/judge, and the health liason for the national club.
> 
> http://www.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/2...her_and_when_to_neuter_a_golden_retreiver.pdf
> 
> Apparently AKC has a podcast on this subject as well, on their website.


*+1*

Here is another interesting article by Rhonda. http://www.grca.org/pdf/health/cancer.pdf

She is in our club and I've spoken to her a number of times. One thing I remember her telling me is to always look at the sources of the information you are reading, i.e. who did the study.


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## Deber (Aug 23, 2011)

I honestly feel it is right to do what is best for your family, not only the dog. If I had kids at home and lots of people around, don't think we could have done it, but our kids are grown, so easy to watch and move Coop when Kye came in. 

Humping has never been a problem at all in my male, in fact Kye is our Humping Queen when she comes in from play all energetic and playful. She humps whatever part of Coop she can get. I stop if it gets too much, but so far Coop has never humped at all. He too has never marked and still squats to pee even at almost 1 1/2 yrs. He housetrained so easily and has just never picked it up. He will mark outside where he finds other males have marked, but I feel this is normal.

I don't know if the benefits are good or not, but figured we would hold off with these two until they are older to fix and so far..so good.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Deber said:


> I honestly feel it is right to do what is best for your family, not only the dog.


I agree! And in our situation One male was done at age 2 and the other at 7 months. I wished I would have done the 2 year old sooner. If there are any difference in Wyatt's growth plates it can't be seen by the naked eye as he is his unneutered dads clone.


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## kevinwang1219 (Sep 6, 2012)

from what i heard from the breeder and the vet, you should allow your puppy to go through their first heat before spaying. But do not let them go into their 2nd heat cycle because it greatly increases their rate of breast cancer.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Sex hormones are what close the growth plates. So the theory is that early neutering produces more gangly, long legged dogs which is thought to contribute to more orthopedics issues. Some of my male pups neutered at six months exactly are much rangier than the later neuters....


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Deber said:


> I honestly feel it is right to do what is best for your family, not only the dog.


thats fine,,,, then don't sign my contract or get a puppy from me with the intent of breaking the contract. (I don't mean you personally, more in general)

I can tell you that I had a couple girls in my last litter who tore acl's each of them had been spayed prior to when I asked them to spay by a great deal... coincidentally none the dogs that are either intact or spayed/neutered later have had any issues. I read some recent statistics... I can't find the cite right now that talks about a large increase in ACL tears amongst dogs and bitches spayed and neutered prior to sexual maturity.... 

I have gotten so tired of people signing and breaking contracts that if you break the contract in any provision like spaying and neutering earlier than the contract states the health guarantee is void. 

I have no problems if people want to do it sooner than I suggest, but then they need to find another breeder 

s


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Humping most of the time is not sexual. It indicates arousal/excitement. I have two neutered boys and two neutered girls and two intact girls(plus one adorable perfect puppy). All six adult dogs will hump each other in one or another permutation. My most perfect spayed female, Sally would hump us if we were on all fours and she was really wound up.


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## AllShookUp (May 7, 2010)

I'm on the fence about this issue and it's health benefits. While I have done both-neutered later in life and also really early. My first guy was @ 2yrs old when we neutered him & he lived until 14 years. He was easy to handle with no health issues until the day he collapsed & died at 13 yr 10 mos. My 2nd guy is alive & well at just shy of 16. He was a much bigger guy & little harder to handle & so we did the 6 mos neuter. I can only imagine if he wasn't fully developed! So both are long lived & healthy (of course due to breeding as well). My most recent guy is more like the first in being leaner less stocky. We did wait until he was 10 mos to neuter him. I don't know whether it affects developement but recent news on brain & bone was the reason I waited on the last guy. Probably would have gone longer, but peer pressure to get it done prompted the 10 mos. I really think it's up to the owner, but the main thing is to DO the spay/neuter. Until then, you must be responsible for your dog when in heat, or if a male around any female dogs.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Shalva said:


> *thats fine,,,, then don't sign my contract or get a puppy from me with the intent of breaking the contract. (I don't mean you personally, more in general)*
> 
> I can tell you that I had a couple girls in my last litter who tore acl's each of them had been spayed prior to when I asked them to spay by a great deal... coincidentally none the dogs that are either intact or spayed/neutered later have had any issues. I read some recent statistics... I can't find the cite right now that talks about a large increase in ACL tears amongst dogs and bitches spayed and neutered prior to sexual maturity....
> 
> ...


Even though you didn't mean this to be personal to Deber, she has said she is waiting until hers are 2 years of age. I think she just acknowledges that every family and dogs are different.

And in all fairness nobody needs to break contract as not all breeders are compatible with all families either.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Even though you didn't mean this to be personal to Deber, she has said she is waiting until hers are 2 years of age. I think she just acknowledges that every family and dogs are different.
> 
> And in all fairness nobody needs to break contract as not all breeders are compatible with all families either.


I know thats why I made it clear that it was not directed at her... I read that she is waiting for her dog.... and I acknowledge as well that not all breeders are compatible with all families it goes both ways.... 

I also realize that having a girl in season (heat) is a big pain in the you know what... I am with ya... I agree 

but then the person (not deber) should find a breeder that is conducive to what they want... and not sign a contract that they are going to break... but yeah I know Deber is waiting but my comment was more in response to the statement... 

but part of the process if the breeder feeling comfortable wtih the puppy person and vice versa... if the breeder is asking you to do things you (generic you) don't feel comfortable with... find another breeder....


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## Deber (Aug 23, 2011)

Shalva, know what you meant. In my case only our female has a 1 yr clause, but spoke with the breeder and she agreed to keep this open if we keep showing, then we will make the decision when she leaves the ring. Our male's breeder could care less, no contract at all but he has wonderful lines and I showed him as a pup.

I just know the breeder needs to be a part of the decision but honestly the family's wellfare must be there too. Some dogs have issues, health problems or the family lives in an area where lifestyles or confinement of the dog may be a problem, so the bottom line is dual, the family must have a dog not breeding and yet the dog should have time to mature, to be healthy and ready for the fixing. It is a balance that must be juggled with each family. But I am a big advocate for working with your breeder and Vet on these decisions. 

We are blessed that we live at a time where science is helping us with our animals, our food choices better than they have ever been and the push to get out with our pets and better their lives is in commercials and out for all to learn and see. When to neuter/spay is and will be a discussion we have for a long time. I feel breeders, our Vets and our own common sense are invaluable to help us with this decission, but there are no hard rules regarding this. No matter what is in our contracts and I believe stongly in contracts and keeping not only my word, but the desires of the breeder, we all have to judge our homes and lifestyles, balanced with what new ideas are there, changes in our family life,,, and make this decision with the help of our breeders and Vets. To me, I don't see any problem with calling your breeder to discuss this and any other things that come up with my dogs. Most breeders feel that the pup is still their's for life and want to be a part. When to spay/neuter is a biggie to me and holding my two until they mature is what we were asked to do and doing it. But if I had not found this forum, not tried showing my pair, I would have probably fixed them sooner. Not wrong and following my contract, but the idea of letting growth plates close, both mature sounded right and I am glad my girls breeder agreed. 

The bottom line is that our pets should be fixed. We all know too many are bred, to many pups without homes. Knowledge is our friend and hopefully those who search out a forum for their breed will learn and make spaying/neutering decisions on what they learn and what their breeder/Vet recomends. You should carefully read your contract and have a repore with your breeder so matters like this can be discussed. I agree if you sign a contract you ware morally obligated to this, though we should all keep in mind that science is changing every year and we should rethink and continuously update our contracts to represent our views.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I think it's because they want the dogs to be fully developed and matured with the hormones, so they can be their full, whole selves first? My breeder states in her contract that my Mercy cannot be spayed until she is 1 year of age. At the same time she will confiscate the dog if she becomes pregnant. Nobody wants an unwanted litter. I am very nervous, especially after reading about what Bridget's owner has had to go through.:uhoh: Whenever Mercy goes into heat, it will be a challenging time indeed!


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## Molly's Mum (Apr 1, 2011)

MercyMom I'm sure you will manage fine as you're a responsible owner but incase something goes wrong did you know there is a morning after pill for dogs? My vet told me about it when I was worrying about Molly being in season, obviously you don't want to have to use it but it's an option if things do go horribly wrong and your girl gets out.


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## o0Shaz0o (Aug 21, 2012)

Sally's Mom said:


> Humping most of the time is not sexual. It indicates arousal/excitement. I have two neutered boys and two neutered girls and two intact girls(plus one adorable perfect puppy). All six adult dogs will hump each other in one or another permutation. My most perfect spayed female, Sally would hump us if we were on all fours and she was really wound up.


I am wondering here... do you all consider humping the same as mounting? 

I see humping as being a mount with the addition of pelvic thrusts... A few of you have said you female dogs do this? I am wondering if there is a language barrier here? LOL... I'll take the fall... I am Aussie :wavey:. 

I know my only experience was an Aussie terrier, male, my grandparents dog... he used to hump my leg and was... well hoping I was a female dog from the looks of things... :uhoh:


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## o0Shaz0o (Aug 21, 2012)

MercyMom said:


> At the same time she will confiscate the dog if she becomes pregnant.


Really??? This was a shock for me to hear this...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

o0Shaz0o said:


> I am wondering here... do you all consider humping the same as mounting?
> 
> I see humping as being a mount with the addition of pelvic thrusts... A few of you have said you female dogs do this? I am wondering if there is a language barrier here? LOL... I'll take the fall... I am Aussie :wavey:.
> 
> I know my only experience was an Aussie terrier, male, my grandparents dog... he used to hump my leg and was... well hoping I was a female dog from the looks of things... :uhoh:


Yes. Dogs (male or female) hump/mount when excited or worked up. 

The worst dog I've ever seen was this female pug who humped a blanket in her crate for the 3-4 hours that we sat behind her and her owner. 

Every single one of my boys except for the first one who would get carsick and hated being in the car - they'd all air hump when initially put in the car to go rides. <- They'd immediately stop when told to chill. Unlike that pug. :yuck:


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

I have to admit I was in shock to read this also!! I think responsible breeders have the right to ask for certain things but from reading this thread and many like it I think there must be some breeders on a power trip.
I would never even remotely consider buying a puppy from a breeder that said she/he would confiscate my dog..for any reason. *I would move on, no questions asked.*
I am a responsible dog owner, I get my dogs fixed when my *VET* tells me it's time. I feed them the best food, I train them and continue training throughout their life. My dogs are treated very well and for somebody to put in writing that they can *STEAL* my dog, after falling in love AND spending hundreds if not thousands on training, food ect.....yeah, try it. 
I personally think that some of these "power trip" rules in the contracts are the very reason why people go to BYB. 
I know my opinion will not be popular but I won't lose any sleep over it, trust me. And anybody that allows a head trip breeder to steal your dog..you should really speak up and help stop this antiquated custom from happening.
I'm still in shock!!!!!!!!!!!! :doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:




o0Shaz0o said:


> Really??? This was a shock for me to hear this...


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Bentleysmom said:


> I have to admit I was in shock to read this also!! I think responsible breeders have the right to ask for certain things but from reading this thread and many like it I think there must be some breeders on a power trip.
> I would never even remotely consider buying a puppy from a breeder that said she/he would confiscate my dog..for any reason. *I would move on, no questions asked.*
> I am a responsible dog owner, I get my dogs fixed when my *VET* tells me it's time. I feed them the best food, I train them and continue training throughout their life. My dogs are treated very well and for somebody to put in writing that they can *STEAL* my dog, after falling in love AND spending hundreds if not thousands on training, food ect.....yeah, try it.
> I personally think that some of these "power trip" rules in the contracts are the very reason why people go to BYB.
> ...


Yep I see this also. And alot of rescues are on a power trip also. And I agree this is why some turn to other breeders.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

And........as a side note, I'd like the breeders that have this *"stealing dogs"* in their contract to tell me .............after you *steal* the dog what do you do with her? The thought is almost more than I can bear. And what happens to the *stolen* unborn puppies??
Now that the AKC female has had an "unplanned" pregnancy she is no longer qualified to breed AKC sooooooooooooooooooooo????


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

Molly's Mum said:


> MercyMom I'm sure you will manage fine as you're a responsible owner but incase something goes wrong did you know there is a morning after pill for dogs? My vet told me about it when I was worrying about Molly being in season, obviously you don't want to have to use it but it's an option if things do go horribly wrong and your girl gets out.



Here in the United States, the "morning after pill' for dogs has been pulled from the market due to numerous horrible side effects. Our vet said it would be malpractice to use it and put your dog at risk. If a dog is confirmed pregnant at 30 days, they can use medication to abort the litter, but at that point, you are already halfway through gestation! I had to watch a bloodhound go through that at work years ago...it was awful  Or you can spay her before a confirmed pregnancy, which seems the most logical to do if you were trying to avoid an unwanted litter and were going to spay down the road anyway.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

MercyMom said:


> I think it's because they want the dogs to be fully developed and matured with the hormones, so they can be their full, whole selves first? My breeder states in her contract that my Mercy cannot be spayed until she is 1 year of age. At the same time she will confiscate the dog if she becomes pregnant. Nobody wants an unwanted litter. I am very nervous, especially after reading about what Bridget's owner has had to go through.:uhoh: Whenever Mercy goes into heat, it will be a challenging time indeed!


And HOW will the breeder even know if your Mercy had pups? I am sure if that does happen and from what I see you ARE a responsible owner and will try your best not to have puppies. Also I am sure that many people will be more than happy to have a little precious Golden as a gift to care for - probably many from this forum. :curtain:


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Claudia M said:


> And HOW will the breeder even know if your Mercy had pups? I am sure if that does happen and from what I see you ARE a responsible owner and will try your best not to have puppies. Also I am sure that many people will be more than happy to have a little precious Golden as a gift to care for - probably many from this forum. :curtain:


I would not count on responsible breeders not finding out, especially if a dog owner is so foolish as to let her dogs breed and then hands the puppies out to people on a public forum. And people "in real life" are always asking about pedigree and parents, so it would get back to the breeder, particularly through friends.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Megora said:


> I would not count on responsible breeders not finding out, especially if a dog owner is so foolish as to let her dogs breed and then hands the puppies out to people on a public forum. And people "in real life" are always asking about pedigree and parents, so it would get back to the breeder, particularly through friends.


So FOOLISH? you are talking as if the dog owner would do it on purpose. Will you people please start acting realistic and stop acting as if you were in a UTOPIA Land? 
Yes - dogs will never reach the point of reasoning, as a matter of fact many humans have not reached that point EITHER. 

Frankly, anyone who has ever bothered to look at Mercymom's posts will see that she IS a responsible dog owner. ACCIDENTS happen - that is why they are called accidents and not INTENTIONAL acts. There is a HUGE difference between the two. 

And frankly a clause like that tells me that that breeder is not a reputable breeder. It is just some breeder who is out for the money - hell for all I know they may keep on breeding the dog themselves. 
Mercymom - you PM me if you do have an accident. No need to post here since many people are so darn uptight about the ACCIDENTS people may have. I am confident that many other people feel the same on this forum even though they are afraid of being jumped on by the so called "RESPONSIBLE" ones. 
Frankly, I am tired of some people on this forum so quick to judge someone as foolish or irresponsible.


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

Bentleysmom said:


> I have to admit I was in shock to read this also!! I think responsible breeders have the right to ask for certain things but from reading this thread and many like it I think there must be some breeders on a power trip.
> I would never even remotely consider buying a puppy from a breeder that said she/he would confiscate my dog..for any reason. *I would move on, no questions asked.*
> I am a responsible dog owner, I get my dogs fixed when my *VET* tells me it's time. I feed them the best food, I train them and continue training throughout their life. My dogs are treated very well and for somebody to put in writing that they can *STEAL* my dog, after falling in love AND spending hundreds if not thousands on training, food ect.....yeah, try it.
> I personally think that some of these "power trip" rules in the contracts are the very reason why people go to BYB.
> ...


This is frustrating. A breeder, or anyone selling a product has the right to put whatever they want in a contract and we the purchasers need to make sure we agree with the contract or go elsewhere. Some breeders contracts are rediculous. I actually read a breeders contract who states (paraphrasing here) that if you want full registration you must wait till puppy is two and do all health testing, then provide breeder with the certificates and another 1500.00 on top of the 1500.00 you already paid....(now wait it gets even better) then breeder gets to choose who you breed your dog to and you give this breeder either pick of your litter or another 1500.00 (price of a puppy) and you also agree to breed a second time, same terms as the first. Breeder picks mate and gets pick or 1500.00, then you get to make the decisions after that...Um wow...

Not to pick on the ones doing it right, but the ones with the rediculous terms like this really frustrate me...I don't want to breed, but neither would I support a breeder who has this in their contract. Or threatens to take my dog for any reason...


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## Altairss (Sep 7, 2012)

Most Breeders start out with pretty standard contracts then someone will abuse it, so they will close that loop hole and on and one. I was amazed how hard it was for me to get into showing I had to jump thru so many hoops I felt like a circus performer! 
They do this to protect themselves and the dogs they love and some of it is to scare the average person into being responsible. Something that too many people have a hard time doing. Rescues are worse because they literally have seen the worse and have made a promise to those dogs to protect them and it can be scarey to put that dog back out there.
On the other side and something Breeders can often stop thinking out is how hard they make it for the average person to get a dog and how they scare people away from buying or rescueing a dog from a responsible party. I talk to people all the time about that and try to educate them about the why. With two kids in dog 4-H I get to meet hundreds of average dog people so to speak. But some also feel it does take to many of their rights away and walk away and right to the places we prefer them not to go. It is catch 22 
Do they breeders and rescue not doing everything in their power or? At the same time I think many should not be so extreme? For example there is a rescue around my neck of the woods that runs you thru the gamet leaves you hanging and even gone so far as to harrass some of the people that got their dogs. It is causing the local BYB of this breed no end to joy as people are flocking away from even trying to get a dog from them. Its sad.


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

This thread is on the verge of being closed. If you feel the need to quote another member please think twice about posting.


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## Altairss (Sep 7, 2012)

Mayve said:


> This is frustrating. A breeder, or anyone selling a product has the right to put whatever they want in a contract and we the purchasers need to make sure we agree with the contract or go elsewhere. Some breeders contracts are rediculous. I actually read a breeders contract who states (paraphrasing here) that if you want full registration you must wait till puppy is two and do all health testing, then provide breeder with the certificates and another 1500.00 on top of the 1500.00 you already paid....(now wait it gets even better) then breeder gets to choose who you breed your dog to and you give this breeder either pick of your litter or another 1500.00 (price of a puppy) and you also agree to breed a second time, same terms as the first. Breeder picks mate and gets pick or 1500.00, then you get to make the decisions after that...Um wow...
> 
> Not to pick on the ones doing it right, but the ones with the rediculous terms like this really frustrate me...I don't want to breed, but neither would I support a breeder who has this in their contract. Or threatens to take my dog for any reason...


Hey I knew a breeder like that! She was just afraid she would make the wrong choice sell a choice puppy and regret it later so she put all these totally wrong in my opinion amendments so she could cover her bases sigh not a breeder I would choose either.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> So FOOLISH? you are talking as if the dog owner would do it on purpose. Will you people please start acting realistic and stop acting as if you were in a UTOPIA Land?
> 
> Frankly, I am tired of some people on this forum so quick to judge someone as foolish or irresponsible.


Perhaps I misread your comment as much as you misread mine, but the fact is that as an owner of an intact golden retriever, I do freak out when I read anything that suggests undermining and getting around those contracts and limited registration designations that are intended to protect a breeder's name and the dogs themselves. 

And it would be very foolish to do as you suggest and hand puppies out to people out a public forum, should you wish to deceive the breeder. 

The reason why there are so many badly bred golden retrievers out there is because you have people who assume that even if accidents happen, there will be lots of people who will want a free puppy. So it's OK to let your guard down. 

As the owner of a female dog, Mercy's Mom is CORRECT in being concerned as she is. And I offer kudos to the other members like Deber who own intact females and never have accidents occur. 

My grandma lived in a Chicago apartment with three dogs, including an intact female and male german shepherd. And those shepherds never bred. Ever. My grandma had no puppies on her conscience. <- And I know that it wasn't easy. The reason why my mom laid down the law about NO FEMALE DOGS EVER relates back to all of the extraordinary efforts my grandma took to ensure that her dogs never bred. 

As the owner of an intact male dog - I really appreciate people not assuming that breeding is inevitable should you leave the dogs intact. It isn't. It's only inevitable if the owners take risks or allow the dogs opportunities to breed. 

Breeders putting such terms in their contracts... doesn't bother me that much since I would NEVER breed my dog. Ever. I'd actually be comforted knowing there is a contract like that... if it means that my golden's littermates (he had 6 sisters and 1 brother) are safe. That would be awesome thinking about a breeder caring so much about the dogs. 

Besides that - before you plop money down, the breeders READ those contracts to you. Pay attention. If there is anything in that contract that you do not accept, then you may go elsewhere.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

I don't really understand how this is any different than the social contract you sign when you have kids, people generally don't have a problem with DHS intervening when children are not being cared for. A breeder put a puppy into this world, and sold that puppy not to be bred, in that breeder's mind having a preventable "accident" is abuse. Many breeders offer to take in females during their first heat cycle, thus negating any "accidents". The fact is, if you don't expect to suffer any consequences for being irresponsible, what does the breeder have as insurance to know this puppy will be taken care of? Faith? That doesn't last very long, everyone saw the thread about the husband listing their limited registered male as a "stud" on ebay? How are breeders to get past that sort of thing? Just let it go? Take a walk in a breeder's shoes for a week, you'll understand those "ridiculous" contracts. 

I personally have a $5000 penalty for breeding a pet puppy, and that will be paid to a local rescue. If I thought I could get the dog back, that would be in there too, but its not realistic or would not hold up in court. 

Our laws really don't fit well with the realm of dogs, there is this in between awkwardness that our language does not articulate what is really going on. But the bottom line, good beeders and rescues view the purchase of a puppy, with far greater depth than a purchase of a car. Deal with it or support those causing dogs to be put to death every day.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Megora said:


> Perhaps I misread your comment as much as you misread mine, but the fact is that as an owner of an intact golden retriever, I do freak out when I read anything that suggests undermining and getting around those contracts and limited registration designations that are intended to protect a breeder's name and the dogs themselves.
> 
> And it would be very foolish to do as you suggest and hand puppies out to people out a public forum, should you wish to deceive the breeder.
> 
> ...


Megora, ALL our previous dogs were intact. No, we did not have an ACCIDENT so far. But that does not mean that it cannot happen to the most diligent of us. Mercy's mom is a very responsible dog owner from every post of hers that I have read so far. ONE accident does not make her foolish. And forum members offering to take the puppies if an ACCIDENT happens does not contribute to her negligence. I am confident she will NOT have an accident but some of you guys cannot keep on terrorizing dog owners like this. 
I like many of your posts but when it comes to this is like it becomes a dictatorship. 

I hope and pray for a day when threads like this can be discussed in such manner that they do not have to be closed off.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Sorry, but this is a totally VALID contract term and I would 100% sign that. These reputable breeders have so much knowledge and background on breeding dogs that of course they know what type of dog would produce the best puppies... its not a ridicules claim! Ive only been into dogs for 2.5 years but there is no way i'd be able to pick a great mate for any dog within that time.. you need to know lineage, clearances, what the dogs done. SOO much more. 

It should also be obvious that they would want you to do clearances...




Mayve said:


> This is frustrating. A breeder, or anyone selling a product has the right to put whatever they want in a contract and we the purchasers need to make sure we agree with the contract or go elsewhere. Some breeders contracts are rediculous. I actually read a breeders contract who states (paraphrasing here) that if you want full registration you must wait till puppy is two and do all health testing, then provide breeder with the certificates and another 1500.00 on top of the 1500.00 you already paid....(now wait it gets even better) then breeder gets to choose who you breed your dog to and you give this breeder either pick of your litter or another 1500.00 (price of a puppy) and you also agree to breed a second time, same terms as the first. Breeder picks mate and gets pick or 1500.00, then you get to make the decisions after that...Um wow...
> 
> Not to pick on the ones doing it right, but the ones with the rediculous terms like this really frustrate me...I don't want to breed, but neither would I support a breeder who has this in their contract. Or threatens to take my dog for any reason...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Claudia M said:


> Megora, ALL our previous dogs were intact. No, we did not have an ACCIDENT so far. But that does not mean that it cannot happen to the most diligent of us. Mercy's mom is a very responsible dog owner from every post of hers that I have read so far. ONE accident does not make her foolish. And forum members offering to take the puppies if an ACCIDENT happens does not contribute to her negligence. I am confident she will NOT have an accident but some of you guys cannot keep on terrorizing dog owners like this.
> I like many of your posts but when it comes to this is like it becomes a dictatorship.
> 
> I hope and pray for a day when threads like this can be discussed in such manner that they do not have to be closed off.


Er...  :uhoh: I was not accusing Mercy's Mom of anything. I was responding to _your_ comment alone and the suggestion that accidental breedings are just as simple to deal with as handing puppies off to whoever wants them. I was stating simply that the suggestion that the breeder would never find out if somebody were handing puppies out on a public forum or anywhere online would not be wise. 

I can think of a bulldog-protective breeder here in Michigan who may or may not have an accidental litter after her husband slipped up. She called that husband far worse than foolish.  If you are truly determined not to allow any accidents to happen, you take measures and handle the situation so as to keep your female safe. Or if you own male dogs, you make sure that they have no opportunity to breed. <- I told a breeder "no" when she asked me if I would adopt a female with the understanding that she would be bred one more time. I told her straight up that a female would have to be spayed before moving in with us. I've heard too many horror stories about silent heats and whatnot. >.<


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Jamm, sometimes people get stuck into titles. While some people love to have them and feel proud (as they should) for all the hard work they put into their dogs, some of us don't care about ribbons and titles. We simply care about the dog doing the job he/she was bed to do. My husband did not compete his dogs for a very long time however he managed to make many of the guys that spent fortunes on dog trainers to shame. It has cost him friendships and many have asked him to train their dogs. 
When I got Rose I did not ask for titles. I got to know the breeder up close and personal. I got to know the dogs. As a matter of fact it wasn't until after I got Rose that I got the pedigree and all the 5 generations. Frankly only the parents and the grandparents matter. Whatever happened 5 generations ago has no bearing over what my pup will be like. 
Did I mention that I got to the point that I did not even need a contract for my puppy. And I have unlimited registration at no extra cost. You know why - because we trust each other. I even paid more than the asking price because of the way I was treated. 

To me, that is a responsible breeder - the one who actually takes the time to meet and get to know the person who purchases the puppies. The breeder who actually takes the time to know the environment that dog will be raised in not by an application and by set appointment dates but the one who creates a personal relationship with the future dog owners. I my be old fashioned but personal relationship speaks volumes to me.


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

I wasn't objecting to the clearances...I agree 100% with that and I do know about breeding and what it takes etc...worked extensively with a breeder for a number of years, from planning to placing to afterward, through quite a few litters and when Leslie died I took over the responsibility of her puppies till they died, if the owners can't keep them I get them etc etc.... Leslie made sure when she new she was dying to contact all the owners and let them know what was going on. 

IMO what I feel is rediculous is the additional monies exchanging hands. That's a deal breaker for me...


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Im not even going to argue about 'what makes up a reputable breeder' there are millions of threads already on the forum about that.

I'm saying that it is selfish to think that these reputable breeders are being unreasonable with their contracts. They're protecting their lines and they are being cautious. 

Joey was sold to me as a pet.. he was fixed at 18 months (i would have waited longer but it was a good time to do it) He goes and see's a vet regularly and if his breeder asked me to get clearances on him for HER knowledge.. no questions asked I would do so. 

Do I care about titles? Not necessarily. Do I care if the dogs are 'proven' (doing SOMETHING not just 'good at fetch and loves dogs') absolutely. Do I care if the dogs are health cleared? ABSOLUTELY. It's not just a 'title' or having a 'show dog' its knowing that my puppy comes from healthy proven lines.

edit to add: just saw your last comment about breeder getting to 'know you' I have spoken to Joey's breeder throughout the last two years that i've had Joey. ANY TIME I had a question about ANYTHING she was all ears and was very willing to show me things. She is amazing, cares about ALL of her dogs, asks about Joey. It's not just a business, she treats all of her puppy people like extended family.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

There is no way I will place a Lushie puppy with someone who shows hostility to breeders on a public forum or in private real life either. No one is entitled to either a puppy or to dictate how a given breeder words a contract. It is your choice where you find the puppy of your dreams, so if you feel the contract is unreasonable, you are free to move on from that litter. I don't really understand then what the breeder bashing accomplishes. It is a privilege to be chosen to have a puppy.


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## OnGoldenPond (Mar 30, 2011)

Molly's Mum said:


> I read a lot of threads and articles about spaying and came to the conclusion that it would be better to let Molly have two heat cycles before spaying. She has just recently had her second heat cycle so we'll be looking at having her spayed in the next couple of months. I am at home most of the day, we have a secure garden and no male dogs so managing Molly during her heat cycle was easy enough to do, a little inconvenient as we missed our walks but nothing too difficult. I can see the benefit of having it done early if you can't guarantee she won't have an unplanned pregnancy. Read a lot and then with that information make the decision that will be best for your circumstances.


It can be easy, however, just a warning....I once had Lab for breeding and one day ( I was outside with her) during her heat while outside, a dog came out of nowhere, jumped the fence, and basically raped her! There was little I could do. She had emergency contraception and was tested for STDs as well. it was just nuts!


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## OnGoldenPond (Mar 30, 2011)

I forgot to also ask...when you have a contract with a breeder to have your pet fixed, on a limited registration, I see that many will not issue AKC papers until you show proof it was done. How long to you have to register a pup? I thought it was one year...if you want to wait for health reasons....then how can you still reg. the pup? Does my question make sense?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

OnGoldenPond said:


> I forgot to also ask...when you have a contract with a breeder to have your pet fixed, on a limited registration, I see that many will not issue AKC papers until you show proof it was done. How long to you have to register a pup? I thought it was one year...if you want to wait for health reasons....then how can you still reg. the pup? Does my question make sense?


^ That type of arrangement by breeders is something I disagree with. It works for pet owners (many of whom don't care about registration anyway), but for those who need registration to enter their dogs in events, it is prohibitive. 

And I know of competition people who are so piffed at breeders doing this that they are going ahead and registering their dogs through the alternative method (PAL or whatever) that the AKC offers for unpapered dogs. 

My feeling on this arrangement... if you are not breeding or competing with your dog, that registration is meaningless. I guess you could assume a dog wouldn't be ready for trials until 2 or 3 years old anyway, but can you imagine if you have a 6-9 month old who is doing VERY well and could be getting exposure in the rally or beginner novice ring? 

Besides that, the registration costs quite a bit more the longer you wait (you can register your dog anytime during its life, providing he has papers). Will these breeders pay for the registration themselves?


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

My question in these situations is why don't you (generic you) have a better relationship wiht your breeder so that these issues can be discussed. Most breeders who do things like the above are better breeders who are trying to protect the breed. I have honestly never heard of a breeder holding back registrations that would prevent people from entering shows. The reality is that most of us WANT people to enter shows. Second, you can enter under a litter registration number that is not the final registration but it is the litter registration number and you can enter that. The other part of this is honestly... trust me at some point the breeder got burned... because "how would anyone know" attitude that was mentioned above. 

The situation mentioned above makes no sense to me and in all the years that I have been showing and breeding and competing I have never heard of a breeder of a performance puppy witholding registrations and forcing people to get an ILP I have honestly never heard of this. I am going to go and ask around and see if this is really a problem. That scenario just doesn't seem plausible to be honest. 

My wolfhound breeder said it best. She doesn't have a very intensive contract... but wolfhounds are a small breed... but so are goldens in a sense amongst reputable breeders ... When I got Natalie we had an agreement that Natalie would go back to her for a litter... its not a co-ownership, it's not anything other than our verbal agreement. The reality is that her attitude is like mine .... if I can't trust you to not breed your dog and to spay or neuter or whatever when you get a puppy from me without witholding your registration papers then I don't trust you and you aren't getting a pup from me anyway. But regardless... she said to me... when we were filling out the contract... I commented on how short the contract was and she said (not in a mean way) but that she didn't feel the need to put it all on paper ... because if anyone screwed her she would just make sure they never got another wolfhound that she knew so many people and word travels so fast that she would make sure that they never got another one. 

I do have a clause that says that I can inspect the area where the puppy is kept at any time.... I can't remember the exact wording... but I think there might be a confiscate puppy clause in there as well.... or STEAL your dog as some put it.... have I ever used it ??? no.... I have never felt the need to but if I heard that one of my puppies was being abused or harmed or left outside all night and day... or like Bing (I didn't know at the time) put on the third floor of a house in a small crate without food or water (he was 4.5 mos old and 17 lbs. when I got him back ) you bet your a** I would have gone down there and exercised that provision of the contract no doubt... as it turns out I didnt have to... I gave the people an out and they took it... thankfully but it was long upsetting nights hoping that they would bring him back to us while they went on vacation and then the plan was to not give him back once I had him in my hot little hands. As it turns out they left him at my house and told me to keep him. 

Another breeder a respected breeder... you can see the discussion in the choosing a breeder section... is going through legal channels right now to get a girl back who has had at least two OOOPS litters.... it might be three.... now at some point you have to start wondering if this was a legitimate oops or is it a way to cover irresponsible breeding or what about the ebay add for the stud dog on a limited registration that was advertised the other day.... There is a reason those provisions are added... and maybe for people who are legitimately responsible you can't understand why... but when you have puppies out there and you start hearing the horror stories from other breeders and experience it yourself, you change your tune pretty quick. Trust me the breeder doesn't want your puppy back... so don't put them in the position of having to make that decision.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Megora said:


> Yes. Dogs (male or female) hump/mount when excited or worked up.
> 
> The worst dog I've ever seen was this female pug who humped a blanket in her crate for the 3-4 hours that we sat behind her and her owner.
> 
> Every single one of my boys except for the first one who would get carsick and hated being in the car - they'd all air hump when initially put in the car to go rides. <- They'd immediately stop when told to chill. Unlike that pug. :yuck:


My Mercy humps the pillow on the couch.:yuck:


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## OnGoldenPond (Mar 30, 2011)

Thank you...I agree, if you are not breeding/showing and buying a pet, then the registration doesn't matter. I was asking from the perspective of a person intending to show in events other than confirmation, and was going to fix the dog anyway. You are correct, they are trying to protect the lines and the breed, which is a good thing. In looking for our new Siberian, I see alot of breeders having these types of contracts (withholding until you fix), and just wanted to clarify on the registration thing, as we do go to events. I should have been more clear. And a BIG YES! You should have a good relationship with the breeder to discuss and work these things out~otherwise, did you really research the breeder and make a good, informed decision when purchasing your pup? And if not, just how reputable was the breeder in the first place. You are right, there has to be that trust there....
And are there really "oops" litters after the invention of the aborative pill for dogs???? 
Thank you for your input.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Shalva said:


> My question in these situations is why don't you (generic you) have a better relationship wiht your breeder so that these issues can be discussed. ....
> Another breeder a respected breeder... you can see the discussion in the choosing a breeder section... is going through legal channels right now to get a girl back who has had at least two OOOPS litters.... it might be three.... now at some point you have to start wondering if this was a legitimate oops or is it a way to cover irresponsible breeding or what about the ebay add for the stud dog on a limited registration that was advertised the other day....


Could not agree more with your entire post. I did select those two paragraphs since to me they are related. If the breeder and the purchaser have a good and strong relationship we will not have two or three OOPS litters, Gestapo style contracts or even limited registration studs on ebay. It will also eliminate a bunch of BYBs out there. 

OOPS litters do happen but they do not happen two or three times. I really do not know what I will do if Rose has an oopsie litter. I am concerned about it and even though she is on an unlimited registration I would not want puppies with any bozo stud out there.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Shalva said:


> My question in these situations is why don't you (generic you) have a better relationship wiht your breeder so that these issues can be discussed. Most breeders who do things like the above are better breeders who are trying to protect the breed. I have honestly never heard of a breeder holding back registrations that would prevent people from entering shows. The reality is that most of us WANT people to enter shows. Second, you can enter under a litter registration number that is not the final registration but it is the litter registration number and you can enter that. The other part of this is honestly... trust me at some point the breeder got burned... because "how would anyone know" attitude that was mentioned above.
> 
> The situation mentioned above makes no sense to me and in all the years that I have been showing and breeding and competing I have never heard of a breeder of a performance puppy witholding registrations and forcing people to get an ILP I have honestly never heard of this. I am going to go and ask around and see if this is really a problem. That scenario just doesn't seem plausible to be honest.


I didn't know you could enter trials under a litter registration number? *clueless* The holding back registration paperwork - is something I've heard of here on GRF and other places. 

I would hope that these breeders (some who are really good) do make exceptions for people who want to show their dogs in field or obedience, but I honestly do not know that they do. <- Keep in mind I had no clue that some would work with pet owners and switch registration should the dog pass clearances and owner is committed to showing in conformation or has attained some other validation of the dog's quality. Speaking with a friend who is fairly connected with various clubs, this apparently happens quite often. And actually, I think it makes a lot more sense handling registration that way vs just giving full registration. The owners of the puppies have that incentive to follow through and get all clearances prior to breeding a dog. 

Elsewhere (on comp lists), I've seen a lot of ranting from people who are unhappy with limited registration to begin with, but particularly with situations where the breeder holds the papers until proof of neuter. Not just with goldens. Other breeds too. They are piffed enough to get an ILP and essentially disown the breeder of their dog. I think one statement that one person used was that if she got titles on her dog, she didn't want any credit to go back to the breeder. 

Now, personally speaking - I do make a mental note of which breeders are the ones who have arrangements like this. Or some other contract I know I won't follow through with (like feeding raw or getting all clearances on a nonbreeding dog etc). I respect the breeders wishes in those cases, and they have every right to set what standards they want, but I would keep looking elsewhere.  

I think knowing the contracts prior to putting a deposit down is as important as knowing the puppy price ahead of time. While the puppy price is sometimes treated like a state secret by some, they do definitely make no secret of their contracts.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Bentleysmom said:


> I have to admit I was in shock to read this also!! I think responsible breeders have the right to ask for certain things but from reading this thread and many like it I think there must be some breeders on a power trip.
> I would never even remotely consider buying a puppy from a breeder that said she/he would confiscate my dog..for any reason. *I would move on, no questions asked.*
> I am a responsible dog owner, I get my dogs fixed when my *VET* tells me it's time. I feed them the best food, I train them and continue training throughout their life. My dogs are treated very well and for somebody to put in writing that they can *STEAL* my dog, after falling in love AND spending hundreds if not thousands on training, food ect.....yeah, try it.
> I personally think that some of these "power trip" rules in the contracts are the very reason why people go to BYB.
> ...


I did not mean to shock anybody. I kinda figured other breeders would be the same way, since unwanted litters are a serious problem. With that said, I am not on the best of terms with my breeder. We got along so well at first (kinda like going on a date) she and I agreed on the same things. She and I were both passionately against low quality breeders. Then as it got closer to the time I picked my puppy up, I noticed in her demeanor that she was getting irritated with me. (Some couples have exasperation during the engagement) Not to mention that the dam had a problematic birth with two stillborns and a puppy that died the next day. (I later found out from the new owners who adopted the dam that she had ovarian cysts! ) This made things more stressful and difficult as there were less puppies to go around. I almost didn't get a puppy! See -> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/our-thoughts/111603-mercy-may-not-coming-home-me-litter.html

There were some things that were not adding up, but I will not get into the details. She is an AKC Breeder of Merit. Health and Temperament were of paramount importance to her rather than looks. I was comitted to her. When I picked her up, that's when I heard her very strict and strange instructions. I have to say that she is weird to a point. The strange instructions are not part of the contract, just *strong* recommendations. For one thing, she does not want her dogs wearing collars or leashes and to keep her licsense and rabies tag in a drawer. She recommended using a special British lead for taking her out. I heard her say no contact with any dogs, not even innoculated ones until 12 weeks. She did not say anything about people. She also recommends no microchip since she thinks it causes cancer. She even told me that she disagrees with a lot of veterinarians. She also says no topical flea, tick or heartworm medication. I was okay with that since my previous dog was on HeartGard, until my vet applied Revolution to her! She also said no to the leptriosis vaccine. Lastly the diet was very strange. *Small* breed puppy Eukanuba with canned I ams ground mixed in, followed by Eukanuba Premium Performance 30/20 while she is still a puppy. Since Mercy's other relatives turned out so beautifully, I wanted to follow this diet as strange as it was. I have since had to switch to Wellness due to Mercy being allergic. 

Anyway, I did not agree with her saying that Mercy could not be around even *innoculated* dogs. I still took her to puppy kindergarten since the other puppies were innoculated for instance. Then, the day after I brought her home, I had made a mistake. (Couple is married) I failed to let Mercy out of her crate when she was yelping and she pooped on herself. While I was collecting myself, the empty box that her X-Pen came in fell on her and made her yelp, adding to my distraughtness since I knew she was in a critical period. I do have low self esteem issues and I am working on them. Anyway, I grabbed the phone debating whether to call my breeder or not. I wanted to mainly ask her how to clean the poop out of her fleece pad, so I went ahead. She answered in a semi-stern voice "Yes Maam!" I told her about how bad I had felt about her pooping on herself followed by the box falling on her while asking her how to clean her crate pad. She didn't seem sympathetic. When I told her that I have trouble forgiving myself for mistakes she said frankly that I will be making alot of mistakes. She said that I have to make it positive for her, which I couldn't agree more, but when you are in a dampened state of mind, it sounds hard. She emphasized that she wants to see pictures. 

I decided to send her the pictures we took of Mercy when we took her to a church Easter festival earlier in the day. She called and I didn't make it to the phone. I listened to her message. She was accusing me of not listening to *anything *she said. "It looks like everything I said to you was in vain!" She criticized me for taking her around people, when I had only heard her mention dogs when we were there picking her up. There were no dogs at the church festival. "You don't know where they've been!" "I am *very* _concerned_!"If she gets sick then...." Meaning that the health guarantee will be void or that I will not be entitiled to help etc., from how it sounded since it would be my fault. I was devastated! I cried all night! This is the first time I am telling my story in this level of detail on the board. I feel like I cannot turn to her when something goes wrong. All of Mercy's behavior issues and health issues I have kept to myself and turned to other dog professionals with. Things are a little better now in our relationship. We are on better terms now, but I can't trust her with my concerns. I can share my joys though, and she is happy for me. When I send her pictures of Mercy now that she is big and beautiful, she really adores them. I wont even get into too much detail as to what happened when I took Mercy to be tatooed in July. All I will say is that I messed up with the directions, and she threw a fit. She apologized as we were leaving though, and was praising us for the good shape Mercy was in as well as talking to our son in a high pitched voice asking him if he loved his puppy. (She loves children and she delights in children interacting positively with her dogs, and that is one of the reasons why I really liked her) I will be getting my next puppy from another breeder though. I have three in mind for my next puppy, but will not contact them for another 4-5 years though. I want to get my next pup when Mercy is middle-aged to early senior.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Bentleysmom said:


> And........as a side note, I'd like the breeders that have this *"stealing dogs"* in their contract to tell me .............after you *steal* the dog what do you do with her? The thought is almost more than I can bear. And what happens to the *stolen* unborn puppies??
> Now that the AKC female has had an "unplanned" pregnancy she is no longer qualified to breed AKC sooooooooooooooooooooo????


If the dog is on a limited registration, she is never qualified to breed to begin with.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> And HOW will the breeder even know if your Mercy had pups? I am sure if that does happen and from what I see you ARE a responsible owner and will try your best not to have puppies. Also I am sure that many people will be more than happy to have a little precious Golden as a gift to care for - probably many from this forum. :curtain:


I do have a confession to make. Sometimes I dream and fantasize about Mercy being bred to a high quality stud and producing gorgeous puppies. That is *way* out of the question though. I wonder if Mercy might be a show potential puppy that was sent home on a pet contract. :scratchchTwo of her sisters from separate litters are on their way to American Championships. They already have UKC Championships. She has such a unique psysique. A lot of people ask me if she's a purebred since she looks so different from what a lot of people are used to seeing in Goldens.:roflmao:Her two sisters both have very round big looking heads, giving them a lion like appearance. Mercy also has the big round head as well. One person who stopped to pet her asked me why I won't breed her since she is so beautiful, and I had to explain to him why it was wrong. He still didn't seem to get it though.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Oh my gosh Mercy Mom.. I am sorry you didn't have such a great experience with your breeder. Certain people are really hard to please.. She sounds like one of them. You are doing a fantastic job with Mercy so she should be very happy!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@Mercy Mom.... I think it sounds like the number one thing with that breeder is it sounds like she lost her patience with you. And it could be she is/was micromanaging because you asked her to or since you are a new owner...? 

With our Danny - his breeder wanted us to feed him a holistic diet. Between her and our instructor, we switched from a cwappy grocery store food (that our dogs hated anyway) to a kibble more consistent with what she wanted us to feed the dogs, even though it wasn't the uber holistic food she fed her own dogs. 

I know that when he had his problems in that first year, she brought up the food and indicated that the food caused rapid growth, etc. It bothered us a lot... but you know, that woman was very supportive and helpful anyway. And it was thanks to her that we didn't get ushered by our vet into putting our dog through surgery. And she paid for a highly respected ortho surgeon to see our dog and advise us. And she remained in our life very helpful and supportive through all of the problems we had with him. Right down to her inviting us to her home to give us grooming lessons. And she even groomed our OTHER golden, without ever charging us anything. She stayed in contact with us right through the end of his life - all 12 years. 

I would hope that despite the way the breeder has disagreed with you or gotten frustrated with you, that she will maintain the same supportive relationship with you. 

I was reading somewhere about a vet that essentially pressured somebody into having major surgery on a young puppy - elbows and shoulders, I think? And the breeder was appalled that she was never given an opportunity to see the xrays or even take them to somebody she trusted to discuss. < - So I guess what I'm saying is sometimes these breeders are as demandy as they are for a reason.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

OnGoldenPond said:


> It can be easy, however, just a warning....I once had Lab for breeding and one day ( I was outside with her) during her heat while outside, a dog came out of nowhere, jumped the fence, and basically raped her! There was little I could do. She had emergency contraception and was tested for STDs as well. it was just nuts!


Oh my goodness!


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

Ugh..so I went back and reread my original post and yep I can see where it was misunderstood. I did not fully explain what when where and why!.... I should refrain from posting when I am tired and crabby. So I apologize if I upset anyone.....

I, personally did not meant to sound like I was bashing breeders. My point I was trying to make is this, that a Breeder should have a contract and could and should put whatever they want in it, but I as a consumer have the right to walk away if the contract terms are not acceptable to me. If I disagree with something I will ask the breeder about it and find out why that is there, I don't assume their terms are negotiable and I am honest about what I am planning and why. 

It's a kind of relationship that you develop. In no way should someone sign it to just get a puppy and then disregard it. 



I would sign a contract with a 5,000 fine for breeding because I'm not going to breed.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My Cookie came from SC and the breeder didn't require a check from me until I got her at the airport. I trusted her and she trusted me. 

Mine are sold with limited registration. I give the papers when they are sold. Through the AKC, you can check the registrations... I found that one of my pups were registered with full registration when it was limited. All I had to do was submit my contract and they changed it.

But this thread has taken a turn from the original question which was why wait to neuter.....


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Oh my gosh Mercy Mom.. I am sorry you didn't have such a great experience with your breeder. Certain people are really hard to please.. She sounds like one of them. You are doing a fantastic job with Mercy so she should be very happy!


She is happy with how good Mercy is turning out at least.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> My Cookie came from SC and the breeder didn't require a check from me until I got her at the airport. I trusted her and she trusted me.
> 
> Mine are sold with limited registration. I give the papers when they are sold. Through the AKC, you can check the registrations... I found that one of my pups were registered with full registration when it was limited. All I had to do was submit my contract and they changed it.
> 
> But this thread has taken a turn from the original question which was why wait to neuter.....


:sorry:
:sorry:
:sorry:


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## damita (Jun 4, 2009)

Bentleysmom said:


> I have to admit I was in shock to read this also!! I think responsible breeders have the right to ask for certain things but from reading this thread and many like it I think there must be some breeders on a power trip.
> I would never even remotely consider buying a puppy from a breeder that said she/he would confiscate my dog..for any reason. *I would move on, no questions asked.*
> I am a responsible dog owner, I get my dogs fixed when my *VET* tells me it's time. I feed them the best food, I train them and continue training throughout their life. My dogs are treated very well and for somebody to put in writing that they can *STEAL* my dog, after falling in love AND spending hundreds if not thousands on training, food ect.....yeah, try it.
> I personally think that some of these "power trip" rules in the contracts are the very reason why people go to BYB.
> ...


So if you bred a pup then you found out she was tied on a short chain outside 24/7 in 40 below weather with no shelter and was pregnant you would leave her there??? To me that is way more shocking!!!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Thank goodness there are breeders for everyone. Too much drama for me


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

damita said:


> So if you bred a pup then you found out she was tied on a short chain outside 24/7 in 40 below weather with no shelter and was pregnant you would leave her there??? To me that is way more shocking!!!


 
I think it would be shocking if *ANY HUMAN* found this out and wouldn't do anthing, regardless of breeder or who bred what. No contract needed.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Back to the original topic....

Neutering/spaying will ALWAYS be an iffy and touchy subject on this forum and on any dog forum really. When you get the professionals, the know it alls, the think they know it alls, medium and the novice's all together... dramatic discussions take place  

If you KNOW and TRUST your breeder enough to get a healthy puppy from them.. I would ask them or express your concerns about the time period on fixing. Vet's are great for medicine and stuff... but i always want a second opinion. Research, research, research.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

This will be my last word on this subject...ever. I have rescued dogs in the condition you just mentioned, so leave that alone with me.
As for my comments, if you read the quote I was referring to it was pertaining to an accidental pregnancy NOT chained to a tree.
WAYYYYYYYYYYYY to much drama for me with these "breeders". Have your opinion, fight about your opinion, enjoy the drama.
I am out of this conversation 100%....for good.
Have a great day.



damita said:


> So if you bred a pup then you found out she was tied on a short chain outside 24/7 in 40 below weather with no shelter and was pregnant you would leave her there??? To me that is way more shocking!!!


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I have not had the time to read through every post but I do think that members need to use civility and respect even during disagreements. There is a way to tactfully disagree and a way to do it rudely. Let's leave the latter at home.

My personal opinion is that if you trust a breeder enough to purchase a puppy from them, then you should agree to their contract. If you don't like the contract, there are plenty of other breeders to choose from. Don't knowingly sign something when you have no intentions of following it. It is a lack of integrity to do such a thing. 

I show my boys in conformation and have several breeder friends. From their point of view, it isn't about being a control freak, a power trip, or whatever else has been said. These people do it for THE DOGS and their health. These puppies were brought into this world by them. They have a life ling commitment to them no matter if you speak to them weekly or yearly. They would drive to the end of the earth to rescue that puppy/adult from a bad situation. Ok, I'm done! Much more to be said but fight nicely!


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

You said it CC!


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

Obviously, there are certain topics on this forum that strike many nerves. However, how is anyone able to ask legitimate questions and get answers without the topic taking a crazy tangent and turning into an argument??? All I wanted was to get some answers as to why there is such a divergence between what the average veterinarian recommends and what breeders are requiring in regards to the age of spaying/neutering. I appreciate those who actually answered my question by providing information, links to articles, scientific studies etc. 

But for someone like me, who would rather avoid drama, I'm hesitant to keep returning to this forum if every post goes down this road . I have no problem with people having different opinions and agreeing to disagree, but the drama is not necessary at all.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

heartgoldens said:


> I'm hesitant to keep returning to this forum if every post goes down this road . I have no problem with people having different opinions and agreeing to disagree, but the drama is not necessary at all.


Your threads have certainly created quite a frenzy, but it's not the same for everyone...however, when an individual's posts are centered around: oops litter, underage dam, missing clearances, belief English lines are healthier than American, not "proving" a golden in some aspect prior to breeding well they've triggered every hot topic out there aside from food discussions.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

SheetsSM said:


> Your threads have certainly created quite a frenzy, but it's not the same for everyone...however, when an individual's posts are centered around: oops litter, underage dam, missing clearances, belief English lines are healthier than American, not "proving" a golden in some aspect prior to breeding well they've triggered every hot topic out there aside from food discussions.


That's uncalled for. This member has clearly learned a lot in her time here and is trying to do better from here on out. This had nothing to do with her oops litter or the.. let's say misunderstandings... that she held when she first joined this forum. I, for one, give her a ton of credit for taking the heat and being open to learning throughout the process. 

She is now attempting to do the best she can for these puppies and part of that is researching information such as what age to recommend her puppy buyers spay and neuter. This topic was about different recommendations and the reasons why. In the course of that, various people shared what their breeders recommended or required by contract. The fact that some chose to use it as yet another opportunity to bash reputable breeders who are doing everything in their power to protect this breed was beyond the control of this poster. Until your post, this had nothing to do with the OP's particular circumstances.

heartgoldens: It seems that lately reputable breeding itself has become a hot topic on this forum. There are some that jump in at any mention of it to try to push the agenda that reputable breeders are snobs on a power trip and that everyone should just go to their friendly neighborhood BYB. It's a shame that a community that has spent years advocating for reputable breeding practices now can't discuss the topic without descending into fights and flames. I hope you do continue to come back and ask questions throughout your dog's pregnancy and beyond. You will find the answers you need... just filter out the noise. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Until your post, this had nothing to do with the OP's particular circumstances.


She had referenced her hesitancy about continuing to come back to the forum which to me referenced her other threads that took on a life of their own and like this current one, deviated from her original post through no fault of her own. To me, her experience has been skewed based on her previous threads--I just wanted to point out that each of her previous posts were hot topics. It would be a whole different ball game had she come to the forum to share her experiences with the family pet or how she was pursuing let's say obedience.


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## o0Shaz0o (Aug 21, 2012)

MercyMom said:


> :sorry:
> :sorry:
> :sorry:


I don't think you lead the thread down a different garden path MercyMom.... It has been off the rails for a while! And I was interested in reading your post about your experience with Mercy's breeder. It does sound like you are placing a lot of your self- esteem/self-evaluation in whether she approves of your methods in raising your GR. You do not sound clueless and it sounds like you are doing a great job with Mercy. And everyone makes mistakes... When you know better, you do better. I guess I am trying to say to you, stop being so hard on yourself! 


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

SheetsSM said:


> She had referenced her hesitancy about continuing to come back to the forum which to me referenced her other threads that took on a life of their own and like this current one, deviated from her original post through no fault of her own. To me, her experience has been skewed based on her previous threads--I just wanted to point out that each of her previous posts were hot topics. It would be a whole different ball game had she come to the forum to share her experiences with the family pet or how she was pursuing let's say obedience.


Understandable, and perhaps the tone of that first post came across more harshly than you intended it.... but the fact of the matter is that she is knee deep in this situation and until these pups are in their new homes most of the threads she is going to be posting will relate back to this litter. If she can't come here to ask these questions and to seek information about how to do things the right way... where should she go? She does not, as of yet (to my knowledge), have a mentor and she's just getting her feet wet with obedience and conformation handling. Outside of a community of breeders and competitors in her own community to turn to, I happen to think that GRF is the best resource out there regarding these topics. She doesn't have that real-life community yet. She needs us. It just seemed to me that you were throwing her previous mistakes back in her face, to an extent, and thoroughly discouraging her from continuing to post (whether intentionally or not). I think that would be a big loss for her and for these puppies... and for this forum in the long run.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## heartgoldens (Jul 25, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> Your threads have certainly created quite a frenzy, but it's not the same for everyone...however, when an individual's posts are centered around: oops litter, underage dam, missing clearances, belief English lines are healthier than American, not "proving" a golden in some aspect prior to breeding well they've triggered every hot topic out there aside from food discussions.


I have managed to be very open and honest and willing to learn from the moment I set my virtual foot on this forum. I have dealt with criticism without getting defensive and have not stated what I knew as facts, but as what I have been led to believe by experts in their respective fields. It is not just black and white, but a lot of gray in between as well. If there is that much debate amongst veterinarians about the proper care & husbandry of dogs (ie. when to neuter), how do you expect the lay person to know how to sort out all the contradicting information?? That is why I came here. It is those who are judgmental and condescending that turn people like me away from this forum. I am not at all worried that my puppies will find excellent homes and that I will do what is best for them and my dogs in the long run. And from the few events I've been able to attend at my local GRC, I have not even gotten half a whiff of judgement from any of the members of the club and 3 different members offered to sponsor my membership after attending 2 events. It takes amazing people to take someone under their wing and guide them in the right direction. It takes absolutely nothing to sit back and criticize without providing constructive criticism. 

Thank you to those very few select people who were willing to answer some of my questions and truly help me out. One day, when I have gained enough knowledge and wisdom, I will be sure to pay it forward.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

heartgoldens,

Lot's of threads seem to drift from one subject onto another I think it is just the nature of the beast. "Humans"  And what is one persons writing style becomes drama to another. We are a passionate group. Sometimes that passion doesn't serve us well in a written forum where we cannot talk face to face. There are many times that my post come off as harsh when I had no intention of them being that way but trying to convey something in the written word and being very serious about the subject may lead to some reading it with the wrong intent.  And for me the subject matter may be of so much importance to me that even though I can't do the post justice I will write it anyway. Please stick around and take what information that you can from our post and let go of any negative comments in most cases I don't think the true intention of the poster is to create harm but to educate. 
I am so glad to hear of you update about getting into the club and with dealing with face to face humans things are going in a positive direction for you.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

One of the reasons for the overall clash of worldviews is that it is so very difficult to jump all the high bars set by the golden code of ethics, that when you do, it is easy to get resentful when you see someone taking an easier road than the one you challenge yourself to journey for the good of the breed. I made the incredibly painful decision to neuter a gorgeous boy whom I spent so much time and money showing and training even though many people felt him not passing his final OFA elbows after sailing through his prelims was a fluke and should not rule him out. I cried many, many tears on that OFA form, but then I called my vet and got him in the next day. My 20 month old girl just finished her AM CH- I cannot describe how many baths, miles driven, early morning, late night drives, help from other people, and sheer dollars that took. In return, I got a deep clear understanding of her structure, her temperament, a mentor, a community to make sure puppies have the best chance of being sturdy, robust little beings if she passes all her final clearances and is bred. While I understand and sympathize with a whoops litter, I do not with the attitude of defending back yard breeders or viewing limited registration as controlling. Breeding is for well-informed trustees of the breed only. Period.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> One of the reasons for the overall clash of worldviews is that it is so very difficult to jump all the high bars set by the golden code of ethics, that when you do, it is easy to get resentful when you see someone taking an easier road than the one you challenge yourself to journey for the good of the breed. I made the incredibly painful decision to neuter a gorgeous boy whom I spent so much time and money showing and training even though many people felt him not passing his final OFA elbows after sailing through his prelims was a fluke and should not rule him out. I cried many, many tears on that OFA form, but then I called my vet and got him in the next day. My 20 month old girl just finished her AM CH- I cannot describe how many baths, miles driven, early morning, late night drives, help from other people, and sheer dollars that took. In return, I got a deep clear understanding of her structure, her temperament, a mentor, a community to make sure puppies have the best chance of being sturdy, robust little beings if she passes all her final clearances and is bred. While I understand and sympathize with a whoops litter, I do not with the attitude of defending back yard breeders or viewing limited registration as controlling. Breeding is for well-informed trustees of the breed only. Period.


Jill, this is off topic.... but when people send their dogs out to show in conformation or if they themselves show their dogs, is the only goal or reason to get that CH title only for breeding? Is there no other reason...? Especially when they themselves have gone out and handled their dogs personally and achieved all of those highmarks as a handler? 

The reason why I ask is that in the past I absolutely was never interested in conformation because I assumed it was really just all about breeding. Essentially campaigning your dog for higher stud fees. And then I've met people who neutered their CH dogs and essentially regarded that title as just one more awesome thing that's on their own record and on their dogs - particularly those who have also gotten MH and OTCH titles. And they have the memories of getting that title with their dogs. <- And honestly, that is something I could totally get. 

When you take obedience and agility, these are two sports where the majority of the dogs are neutered and spayed. The owners spend a LOT of money on their dogs, show fees, gas money, training/seminar expenses, and so forth. And over all it is because the people want those titles on their dogs so others can recognize the years of hard work and expense that was put in.


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Even though this is against the tide, I truly believe it can be much harder to manage an intact male than a neutered one for many people.


I totally get this. We neutered Tucker at 17 months. Our breeder recommended 18 months, but left it ultimately up to us. From about 6 months on our trainer kept nagging us to neuter Tucker. I got sick and tired of hearing them nag us about it, and stopped taking classes for awhile. It was during that time that Tucker developed a couple of issues with other dogs. It took lots of classes and training to get us back from that point. The last straw for us was when we were walking with Tucker on lead at a beach. A woman had a beautiful female golden, who Tucker bolted for and ripped the leash clear from my hands. My son retrieved him from the surf as the woman told me,"yeah, I think she is coming into heat.". :doh: Luckily my son got to him before anything happened. I had Tucker fixed shortly before we had a camping trip a couple of months later. I dont regret wAiting to neuter Tucker, but it opened my eyes to how quickly an unintended pairing could happen. The only thing I do regret was taking him out of classes during those teenage months. I should have put up with the nagging. I realize now that they were probably right, Tucker would have been easier to handle if he had been neutered.

Edited to add:
Tucker is our first dog as adults. We just were not anticipating getting a golden that was a bit headstrong, an independent thinker, and at times, not food driven. He was a lot to handle as a first time owner, but nothing that obedience classes and a good trainer could not get someone thru.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

With consistent handling and dog classes, intact dogs are not really any more difficult to handle around females in heat than neutered ones.... A friend of mine through class who owns labs mentioned one time how surprised she was when her neutered dog went nuts and attempted to breed when the female went in heat. 

Keep in mind I don't exactly let my dog loose with dogs I don't know and I follow the same rules I would if riding a stud horse in the same arena as other horses. Which I've done, and you are very aware of keeping your horse's focus off the rears of the other horses. I try to keep Jacks from focusing too much on ears and rears. :

Probably the only time Jacks' been allowed to visit with a female in heat was when I was chatting with a friend while we were out pottying our dogs. It wasn't until after she'd put her dog's undies back on that I realized that the dog was in heat. Jacks didn't behave any differently than normal. 

When we first started taking classes at this facility with the one instructor, she was one of those who was concerned about having an intact male in the same class as females in heat. I assured her that my dog isn't allowed to visit on the floor anyway and it won't be an issue. It has never been one. He has been in the stay lineup next to the girls in heat and completely ignored them. 

A lot of that really comes down to how we've handled him and trained him. Dogs who go to class every single week and are trained to ignore the other dogs in the class and "no sniff" on command, will have little to no problems being around the ladies.  

Honestly though, I doubt I'd handle the dogs any different were they neutered. Our collie is neutered, but the only dog he's allowed to run loose with and play with is Jacks.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Copley could even smell on my clothes if I had worked with an intact female. He wouldnt eat, it was hard to keep weight on him, and he jumped out of our high fenced yard to get to Bunny when she was in season. He is a super friendly dog until a girl is in season- then he gives the stink eye/high tail to other big males. One of my fav obedience people with a show CH boy could only compete at indoor shows bc he would mark outside- they have their UD. It is a pain in the rear end dealing with the testosterone in a young boy if you also own an intact female. Hey, there is a reason car insurance is higher for young males!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Megora said:


> Jill, this is off topic.... but when people send their dogs out to show in conformation or if they themselves show their dogs, is the only goal or reason to get that CH title only for breeding? Is there no other reason...? Especially when they themselves have gone out and handled their dogs personally and achieved all of those highmarks as a handler?


I can completely relate with your friend who neutered her champion. I am much more excited to meet the challenge of learning the fine aspects of stacking, gaiting, ring tactics, grooming than really to breed. To me, it has much the same feeling as when I used to play varsity soccer- trying for mental toughness and being composed under enormous pressure. In the breed ring, only one dog can win- it is not like obedience in which you compete against yourself to some degree. The competition is very raw and obvious in the breed ring, which amps up the sport aspect. It is very much a win/lose kind of thing.

What is the same is the enormous sense of partnership with your dog. The dog and handler working together like dancers casts a spell- that hard-to-define feeling in which people say the dog asked to win. That takes hours and hours of training. 

The breed ring has a different flavor of adrenelin from obedence. It is ultracompetitive, with ever-changing conditions you must react to in the split-second. There is a phychological component, a tactical component, a preparation component, and lots of wild cards. Some people are not athletic enough to show a golden, but they own a high quality dog. Some people own high quality dogs but do not have the sports mentality to face the ring. Some people, like me, will handle their own dogs for single points at small shows, but arent skilled enough for a specialty level. You can get hooked the way you get hooked on slot machines, lol. There is also a social component of seeing friends and good fellowship,

At first, I thought I could get away with not grooming daily and bathing weekly bc my dog was nice. Ha! Most of the dogs are very nice. It is the attention to detail and self-discipline that can make the difference between rwb and wb. I think you have to dip toes in the water of the conformation ring to understand how truly, mind-blowingly competitive it is at say, a big specialty major. There are so many, many heartbreakingly beautiful dogs, and when your dog gets the nod that she is the best one on that day, all the hour-long daily sessions of gaiting and stacking, the bath/blow dry every four days, the times you tried hard but came in fourth all vanish for a little while. You are only on top for about 12 hours though, bc the next day comes with its clean slate. 


Pride in a breeding program is a big reason people show- outstanding dam and sire titles are especially meaningful for breeders, so it is good to work hard for your breeder in return for being trusted with a top quality pup.I am very pleased to come through for my breeder, and to represent her breeding program well. I never want to be without a golden, and I know that demonstrating the capacity to figure out the maze of conformation showing to reach the Am CH (and GR CH soon), will give people faith in me should I want to choose a puppy in the future. One of my big reasons for working diligently for AM CH title is not to breed but to attain what in my mind is a college degree's worth of knowledge about goldens. Hand in hand with the title has come discussion and teaching about pedigrees, friendships with experienced breeders and handlers. . . It takes a village.


The reason many people do link conformation showing it to breeding is the sheer expense. People always comment how much Tally's RAE title must have costed in entry fees as it is 20 legs. That is nothing compared to showing, nothing. It can be 10, 000$ to 20, 000$ to finish a golden. All our extra income goes to this: no vacations, no meals out, no school clothes, lol. It is truly insane. Lushie's breeder Jenn handles her dogs herself from bred by exhibitor, but she is very good and can finish her dogs quickly bc they are so nice and because she is an amazing groomer. Unless you have unlimited funds or just one dog, you run into trouble financially if you are an owner handler slogging it out for years and putting points on at a snail's pace; you also run into trouble if you have a medium quality dog out with a handler bc you can get to 10K with little to show for it. The best way for me is to show a puppy as an owner-handler to make it a wonderful experience and train, then choose a kindred spirit talented handler for when the dog blooms. (Lushie was able to earn 15 points and 2 majors in 12 show days: 6 weeks). However, that was after a solid year of working with her every day, mind and body, so she would be ready.

Now Lushie and I will do her CD, her RAE, and her TDI. Why exactly? Not sure- for the process and partnership between us I think. In this level of obedience, there isnt the raw direct ferocious competition directly against others, in which only one dog can win.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Heartgoldens, it isn't just you,by no means, this happens on many topics, too several people.


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

Back on topic, is it possible to look at a male and know it is time to neuter? Is when the growth plates have closed? Obviously, the length of time to wait is just a ballpark guideline. 

I can say with Tucker, visually he is noticeably different than early neuter goldens I have seen. (most are rescues). He is broader, less leggy, bigger head. Probably most of that is a product of lineage, but how much can be attributed to a late neuter?


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Megora said:


> A lot of that really comes down to how we've handled him and trained him. Dogs who go to class every single week and are trained to ignore the other dogs in the class and "no sniff" on command, will have little to no problems being around the ladies.


But really, how many AVERAGE pet owners are willing to put in that amount of time and training (Kate, I consider you a *much* above average pet owner!). The people I see and talk to every day have a hard time understanding why they need to go to classes with their dog ONCE much less class every single week for months on end. And they want to go to the dog park when the dog is still a teenager-sure that's fine (if that's what you want), but the far greater majority of these dogs are NOT reliably trained at this point. So I guess the point of this post is that I very much agree with Jill.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

This thread is making me nervous.. Molly will likely go into heat during her CGC and advanced obedience classes. I hope I don't piss off any owners of male dogs for bringing in a huge distraction..


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Vhuynh2 said:


> This thread is making me nervous.. Molly will likely go into heat during her CGC and advanced obedience classes. I hope I don't piss off any owners of male dogs for bringing in a huge distraction..


You should alk to your instructor about whether they want her in class or not...I know that during competition she is not allowed to enter... and they will refund your money for the entry fee (well most of it) but you should let your instructor know bout class and as for me I would be THRILLED to have a bitch in season in class... we are always looking for distractions and a bitch in season is a great distraction... no even when you have a tingling in your loins you STILL have to listen to Mom!!!

That having been said I think saying that a boy dog will have no problem being around the ladies is a bit of an overstatement.... even my trained dogs who are not sniffing the ladies and are generally focused still have their brains go south while my girls are in season... even if the girls are home and the boys are out at the park working... we always find we have to take a couple steps back and adjust our expectations when the ladies are looking lovely.... I just find that their brain cell is on hiatus and things that they accomplished with no trouble the week before are more difficult


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Shalva: your post makes me smile! You make it sound like a romance novel!! I love it


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

IowaGold said:


> But really, how many AVERAGE pet owners are willing to put in that amount of time and training....


Oh I agree! I was just pointing out that there is a way to keep dogs intact, but it is a lot of work and committment. And responsibility. I absolutely feel that those owners out there who do not follow through with the training and handling and restriction - they should neuter their dogs. I'm pro neutering if the owner feels there is any chance of that dog breeding at any point. We always neuter our cats because there is no way I can keep them from breeding. I was very upset with a coworker who has several unneutered cats. It's just irresponsible. 



Shalva said:


> I would be THRILLED to have a bitch in season in class... we are always looking for distractions and a bitch in season is a great distraction... no even when you have a tingling in your loins you STILL have to listen to Mom!!!


Yep. You never know if there will be a female in heat at shows - especially those with both conformation and obedience. Best train your dogs to ignore ALL distractions. Whether that's the person sitting outside the obedience ring with hot dogs or whatever, or if a female in the lineup is having a silent heat or is getting ready to go into heat and the owner hasn't realized it yet. 



> That having been said I think saying that a boy dog will have no problem being around the ladies is a bit of an overstatement.... even my trained dogs who are not sniffing the ladies and are generally focused still have their brains go south while my girls are in season... even if the girls are home and the boys are out at the park working... we always find we have to take a couple steps back and adjust our expectations when the ladies are looking lovely.... I just find that their brain cell is on hiatus and things that they accomplished with no trouble the week before are more difficult


^ This is why I told that friend of mine who offered to place one of her girls in my home - especially as we got along with the girl and she liked Jacks - I told her that the female would absolutely have to be spayed before coming home with me. 

Training a dog to ignore the lovely ladies in class or elsewhere is EASY, because since that dog was 3 months old he has been steadily trained to ignore all distractions and focus only on his owner. <- With us, our instructor from 5 months to 2 years would spend 15-20 minutes at the beginning of every class just working on focus. Our Monday night instructor right now does the same thing. This is working on things like people weaving around the dog with their dogs, people walking up to the dog with treats in their hands, people throwing toys around, etc... the dog is not allowed to look away or look at those distractions even once. 

But having a dog in our home who is in heat? Holy cracker that would be way too much work. 

That breeder friend explained that in those situations where her puppy people didn't want to deal with the heat, they bring the ladies back to her for a vacation time during that month. I still didn't feel comfortable even with this arrangement.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

When I lived in a neighborhood, my second golden, Laney was unspayed for several years. There was a lab way down the street who would get into the garbage, but boy oh boy even with his head in the garbage, he knew when in heat Laney went out to go pee. The beagle I rescued in vet school came to me unspayed. When she came into heat, there would be three male dogs camped out on our apartment steps. It was so irritating. Living in the country, I never see a stray dog ever on our property. I do bring mine to class in heat.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Shalva said:


> You should alk to your instructor about whether they want her in class or not...I know that during competition she is not allowed to enter... and they will refund your money for the entry fee (well most of it) but you should let your instructor know bout class and as for me I would be THRILLED to have a bitch in season in class... we are always looking for distractions and a bitch in season is a great distraction... no even when you have a tingling in your loins you STILL have to listen to Mom!!!


They do know about Molly possibly coming into heat and they said it was OK as long as she is in diapers and is washed and deodorized before class. The class includes the test at the end of the session. I don't want to be the reason for a dog to fail.. maybe I will just have her tested when she is out of season..


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Vhuynh2 said:


> They do know about Molly possibly coming into heat and they said it was OK as long as she is in diapers and is washed and deodorized before class. The class includes the test at the end of the session. I don't want to be the reason for a dog to fail.. maybe I will just have her tested when she is out of season..


if this class includes the test I do think that it would be a kind thing to keep her away and have her tested when she is out of season or individually. Remember she is likely to have her mind elsewhere as well depending on where she is in the cycle.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

heartgoldens said:


> I have managed to be very open and honest and willing to learn from the moment I set my virtual foot on this forum. I have dealt with criticism without getting defensive and have not stated what I knew as facts, but as what I have been led to believe by experts in their respective fields. It is not just black and white, but a lot of gray in between as well. If there is that much debate amongst veterinarians about the proper care & husbandry of dogs (ie. when to neuter), how do you expect the lay person to know how to sort out all the contradicting information?? That is why I came here. It is those who are judgmental and condescending that turn people like me away from this forum. I am not at all worried that my puppies will find excellent homes and that I will do what is best for them and my dogs in the long run. And from the few events I've been able to attend at my local GRC, I have not even gotten half a whiff of judgement from any of the members of the club and 3 different members offered to sponsor my membership after attending 2 events. It takes amazing people to take someone under their wing and guide them in the right direction. It takes absolutely nothing to sit back and criticize without providing constructive criticism.
> 
> Thank you to those very few select people who were willing to answer some of my questions and truly help me out. One day, when I have gained enough knowledge and wisdom, I will be sure to pay it forward.


I read over your purchase contract and saw how you worded the "story" behind the litter on your website--it's refreshing to see the honesty/openness you convey as well as to see you actually take the input from this forum (and any other mentors you have) to improve your effort as opposed to many others that have passed though GRF who learned enough to spin their website so as to appear as a reputable breeder to the uneducated buyer. Thanks.


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