# Gap View Kennels in Broadway VA



## LizShort

I have been reading on the site about the possibility of Gap View Goldens not being very good. Have I made a poor decision? Please tell me I haven't just thrown away a $500 deposit... Please tell me I will be happy with my new pup and he will love a long time... Like Comet did...:no:


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## BeauShel

A couple of members have gotten their dogs from there. No matter who you go with make sure to see all clearances on parents and grand parents. At the top of the page you will see a puppy buyer checklist. I highly suggest all new members looking for puppies look at that for what to look for from a breeder. 
Good luck with your search


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## tippykayak

What exactly about the kennel has you worried?


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## Pointgold

Ask to either see hard copies of OFA hip/elbow, and cardiac clearances, as well as CERF eyes. Or, get the AKC registered names/numbers of the sire and dam and check the databases yourself, or have someone help you.
A breeder simply telling you that dogs were checked is not enough.


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## LizShort

The only thing that worries me is what other members have said about them. When I was there, the dogs were wonderful. They were all clean and happy to see me when I arrived. They all look good and were happy. I was able to play with the sire and the dam. They're hips were not tender and they felt solid. I know that's not a good indication, but they did not seem to be in any pain. They have a vet tech named Anne working there who is wonderful. She obviously loves the dogs as well. 

I'm so quick to freak out because I am always certain that I've made a poor decision about everything (sheepish grin)


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## NuttinButGoldens

While I don't think their paperwork on clearances may be as up to date as I'd like to see, I have owned one of their dogs.

I got Comet there in 1996. He was a perfect Golden, and had no issues until the week before he died of cancer at age 12 this past January.

I think David Liskey is a good man, and I do believe he cares about his dogs.

BTW... That is Comet in my Avatar.

If I had not run across such a wonderful situation, I would have probably ended up getting my next one from there.



LizShort said:


> I have been reading on the site about the possibility of Gap View Goldens not being very good. Have I made a poor decision? Please tell me I haven't just thrown away a $500 deposit... Please tell me I will be happy with my new pup and he will love a long time... Like Comet did...:no:


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## Tahnee GR

LizShort said:


> The only thing that worries me is what other members have said about them. When I was there, the dogs were wonderful. They were all clean and happy to see me when I arrived. They all look good and were happy. I was able to play with the sire and the dam. They're hips were not tender and they felt solid. I know that's not a good indication, but they did not seem to be in any pain. They have a vet tech named Anne working there who is wonderful. She obviously loves the dogs as well.
> 
> I'm so quick to freak out because I am always certain that I've made a poor decision about everything (sheepish grin)


The only way to judge hips is through either OFA or Penn Hip. I have known some dysplastic dogs and you could not tell they had bad hips until they were older, as well as those who show obvious signs at a very young age.

If they do not have all clearances, I would ask for my deposit back. Each dog (as well as each dog for at least 3-4 generations back) should have hips cleared through OFA or Penn Hip, elbows cleared through OFA, eyes cleared annually by a veterinary opthamologist and hearts cleared at least once after age 12 months by a veternary cardiologist. There is no excuse in this day and age not to have these very basic clearances.

What kind of guarantee/warranty do they offer?


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## Noey

I have a Gap View pup and he is wonderful.


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## Pointgold

Without a solid ancestral history of health clearances, you are making a real gamble as to your dog's future health and soundness. This is not about temperament - I have known many wonderful dogs and puppies that were a genetic nightmare as far as their physical health - some with issues that were apparent at a very young age, others not until adults. If you have not actually seen official documentation of such clearances, it's a crap shoot and the dice are loaded _against_ you.


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## tippykayak

Unfortunately, the fact that the parents look sound isn't any indication at all. Two dogs with poor hips might never show visible signs of HD, particularly in their youth. Have you seen all the clearances? You can check to see if the breeder has registered any clearances on www.offa.org by typing in the parents' registered names.


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## sammydog

Here is the info from OFA on their three sires from their current litters. According to OFA only one has hips clearances and none have elbows. They all have heart and eyes. Although none of the eye clearances are current...

"Bryce"
PINE LEDGE'S MAINE ATTRACTION 
Registration: SR07522102 (AKC)
CARDIAC NORMAL - PRACTITIONER 
CERF TESTED: 06
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1173388#animal 


"Bisquet"
WEST COASTS' PLATINUM PRINCE 
Registration: SN81047803 (AKC) 
HIPS GOOD 
CARDIAC NORMAL - PRACTITIONER 
CERF TESTED: 06
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1152962#animal 


"Bronson"
GAP VIEW'S SIR CHARLES BRONSON 
Registration: SR39160313 (AKC) 
CERF TESTED: 07 
CARDIAC NORMAL - PRACTITIONER 
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1300729#animal


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## Noey

question. I have a PennHip Evaluation report for mine...is this the hip clearence?


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## sammydog

Noey said:


> question. I have a PennHip Evaluation report for mine...is this the hip clearence?


Yes PennHip is too. I don't personally know much about them though. So I guess that would be a good thing if they all have PennHip done. But I would not know how to verify it...


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## Emma&Tilly

I personally would not get a puppy from them...too many dogs, FAR too many litters...not my cup of tea! I want a breeder that breeds a litter for a reason (money not being the reason of course!) and has a small breeding programme and the litter is the result of them wanting to continue their lines. It sounds like the clearences are a little ropey too.


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## Tahnee GR

Also note that the cardiac clearances are "Practitioner", which means a regular vet. This is from the GRCA Code of Ethics. Note that the cardiac clearance is to be done by a cardiac specialist (C):

(iii) possess the following examination reports in order to verify status concerning possible hip dysplasia, hereditary eye or cardiovascular disease, and elbow dysplasia: 


a. Hips – for U.S. dogs, a report from Orthopedic Foundation for Animals; or PennHIP at 24 months of age or older. For dogs outside the U.S., report from a health registry approved by the Golden Retriever club of that country (e.g. Canada - Ontario Veterinary College; Great Britain - BVA/KC Hip Score) A report from the accepted health registry of another country may be used for U.S. dogs that are 24 months of age or older when x-rayed.

b. Eyes – appropriate report from a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Ophthalmology (ACVO) or from a BVA/KC approved ophthalmologist (Great Britain), or a report from the Canine Eye Registry Foundation. For dogs outside the U.S., a report from an ophthalmologist as recommended by the Golden Retriever club of that country after 1 year of age. Examinations must be done within 12 months of a breeding.

c. Hearts – appropriate report from a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Medicine, Cardiology Specialty or a certification by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals by a cardiologist (the number will be followed by a C) at 12 months of age or older.

d. Elbows – for U.S. dogs, a report from Orthopedic Foundation for Animals at 24 months of age or older. For dogs outside the U.S., report from a health registry approved by the Golden Retriever club of that country at 24 months of age or older. A report from the accepted health registry of another country may be used for U.S. dogs that are 24 months of age or older when x-rayed.


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## zippybossrock

Wow....there are 5 litters available very soon and 2 more to quickly follow....


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## LizShort

Sammydog, thank you for looking that up. I had no idea how to do that. I just went and cruised around the site. thank you for posting the links 

Thank you all for your input. There are three primary reasons I am bringing this pup into my life, the first is my son needs a playmate other than ME!! LOL. Second, I need a reason to get up and get out. The third... well... we will save that for a later date.

This pup will be loved regardless. If his hips and elbows don't pan out, I will have him snipped. 

Thanks again for your input. I really appreciate it!!!


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## Gwen

LizShort said:


> Sammydog, thank you for looking that up. I had no id
> This pup will be loved regardless. If his hips and elbows don't pan out, I will have him snipped.
> 
> Thanks again for your input. I really appreciate it!!!


It would appear that you're getting this puppy for use as a stud dog:no::no::no::no: in addition to your other two reasons. Sorry, but the stud dog purpose doesn't cut it with me as there is a lot more to fathering puppies than having the parts. Please, if you're getting this pup as a pet, neuter him!


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## tippykayak

LizShort said:


> This pup will be loved regardless. If his hips and elbows don't pan out, I will have him snipped.


If his hips and elbows don't pan out, you may be on the hook for thousands of dollars of surgery, medicine, and physical therapy, not to mention the emotional trauma to the dog and your kid.

I'm confused. Is this a pet or a stud dog you're shopping for? There's a lot more to responsible breeding than owning an intact male of decent lineage. No offense, but the fact that you didn't know what to look for in a breeder makes me uncomfortable about how much you know about what you're potentially getting into if you're planning to breed dogs.


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## Pointgold

tippykayak said:


> If his hips and elbows don't pan out, you may be on the hook for thousands of dollars of surgery, medicine, and physical therapy, not to mention the emotional trauma to the dog and your kid.
> 
> I'm confused. Is this a pet or a stud dog you're shopping for? There's a lot more to responsible breeding than owning an intact male of decent lineage. No offense, but the fact that you didn't know what to look for in a breeder makes me uncomfortable about how much you know about what you're potentially getting into if you're planning to breed dogs.


Managing a stud dog is not simply about having an intact male and allowing him to breed bitches. Are you prepared to have a bitch (or bitches) in season staying with you and being responsible for her safety and well being while she is being bred? Taking her to the vet for progesterone testing or other care if needed? (There is little likelihood that owners of bitches of any quality, and with solid genetic health histories, would be flocking to a dog from Gapview.)


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## LizShort

No, I'm not looking for a stud dog. I'm looking for a show partner. If his hips and elbows don't pan out, I will take him out of the ring and get him neutered. I can't show if he is neutered. 

The third reason I am getting Jake is because I have been going through a horrific depression that has almost killed me... quite literally. I know he will not cure my depression. He _will_ give me a reason to get out of my bedroom where I have lived for the last 3 years and get me more involved with life again. 

When my landlord said I could have a dog, my life brightened. I could actually get myself going again and I searched for breeders online daily. I hunted until I found Gap View.

I miss the show ring. It is one of the only things that makes me want to get up and get moving. I miss having a warm furry body to snuggle with on the couch. 

I didn't want to get into the third reason because it was so personal. Anyway... I didn't want anyone thinking that I was actually looking for a stud dog. I do understand the work and responsibility involved in breeding. I grew up with show dogs. My father bred them and I worked with him through the process. 

Right now my goals are to have this pup in the obedience ring all the way up through his UDX and farther if possible. Like I said, if his hips and elbows are not at the very least "good", I will take him out of the ring and he will continue to be a very well loved pet. As you know, he can't show if he is cut.


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## Tanyac

Well Liz, I applaud the fact that you've thought long and hard about getting a dog, you obviously know the responsibility that comes with ownership. And it looks like it will be a mutually beneficial relationship - a family who will love the dog and a dog who will give so much back to his family.

Good luck and can't wait to see puppy pics, although as others have said, be very sure about such things as health clearances before you sign on the dotted line or have your heart won over (very difficult not to!).


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## bigds01

I know I am new here, but I am a very experienced pet owner (and purchaser). The biggest key to buying from a breeder is reputation. I have looked and looked and haven't found one complaint about a dog received from gap view. Also, Dave committed to covering genetic defects regardless of what the contract says. Remember him selling a bad product would be bad business.


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## LizShort

Bigds... thank you very much for your kindness and support. I too am an experienced pet owner. I have been a companion to just about any critter that there is to be a companion too including snakes, rats, goats, and many varieties of birds, not to mention dogs and cats. 

I know that Gap View may not be perfect for everyone out there. I have made my choice and will live with any consequences that follow. 

I am going to believe that there was no malice in many of these posts. I am going to believe that the only intent was to ensure that this beautiful breed continues to get more sound and more beautiful. I too love this breed and would never EVER do anything that would possibly bring pups into this world that were anything less (to the best of my ability) than 100% quality with all the vital checks done. 

In the past, my experience with goldens has been one of total respect and unconditional love. My golden, Quincy, was one of the most amazing companions any high school child could ever want. He was there for me every step of the way and even protected me from an abduction. This is a regal breed that needs to continue to be improved by breeders who know what they are doing. If I ever decide to get into breeding, you can believe that I will do more homework on it than just having an intact male. 

I am not ignorant. Please don't treat me as such.


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## tippykayak

Hey there. I'm sorry that one of my posts was one of the less friendly. You wouldn't believe the number of people who come on here for breeding advice who haven't thought things through. So I apologize for being concerned you were one of those people.

Good luck finding a great dog. Gap View doesn't look that encouraging on the surface, but as long as you go through the buyer's checklist with them very, very carefully, and they meet all those standards, you should be OK.


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## Tahnee GR

Actually, a neutered dog can be shown in obedience-it has always been that way. It can not be shown in conformation, which may be what you meant.

I agree, Gap View does not look that encouraging but as long as both parents have OFA/PennHip hips, OFA elbows, eyes cleared by a veterinary opthamologist and hearts cleared by a veterinary cardiologist, with several generations of the same clearances on both sides, the odds are with you.

For serious obedience, competitors generally look for advanced titles on the the parents but there are some gems out there from untitled parents for sure.

As tippykayak said-good luck with your puppy. May he have a long and healthy life!


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## bigds01

Tahnee GR said:


> Actually, a neutered dog can be shown in obedience-it has always been that way. It can not be shown in conformation, which may be what you meant.
> 
> I agree, Gap View does not look that encouraging but as long as both parents have OFA/PennHip hips, OFA elbows, eyes cleared by a veterinary opthamologist and hearts cleared by a veterinary cardiologist, with several generations of the same clearances on both sides, the odds are with you.
> 
> For serious obedience, competitors generally look for advanced titles on the the parents but there are some gems out there from untitled parents for sure.
> 
> As tippykayak said-good luck with your puppy. May he have a long and healthy life!


Has anyone actually had a bad experience with Gap View? Is there something I am missing?


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## Debles

Having been on this forum a long time and knowing the posters, I can say that all the comments were well intentioned because of a great love for the golden retriever.

Please don't take it personally. Everyone wants the GR breed to be the best in health and temperament and only breeders who are ethical and have all clearances can do that.

If you have ever had a golden who developed problems later in life due to poor breeding practices and your dog and you suffered, then you'd understand.

Good Luck with your pup!


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## bigds01

Debles said:


> Having been on this forum a long time and knowing the posters, I can say that all the comments were well intentioned because of a great love for the golden retriever.
> 
> Please don't take it personally. Everyone wants the GR breed to be the best in health and temperament and only breeders who are ethical and have all clearances can do that.
> 
> If you have ever had a golden who developed problems later in life due to poor breeding practices and your dog and you suffered, then you'd understand.
> 
> Good Luck with your pup!


I had one die of cancer.


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## LizShort

Debles said:


> Having been on this forum a long time and knowing the posters, I can say that all the comments were well intentioned because of a great love for the golden retriever.
> 
> Please don't take it personally. Everyone wants the GR breed to be the best in health and temperament and only breeders who are ethical and have all clearances can do that.
> 
> If you have ever had a golden who developed problems later in life due to poor breeding practices and your dog and you suffered, then you'd understand.
> 
> Good Luck with your pup!


I had one with epilepsy so bad that any time he was scared or there was a female in heat, he would seize. 

My last golden was put down after having a stroke in his spine that took out his back end. 

My parents also had a Bernese Mountain Dog who came from a very good line with all the OFA checks and cardiac and eye. He had one leg to go before getting his conformation championship. He used to bounce when anyone would come in the house. He allowed my son to climb all over him and even ride him (my son was 2 at the time). Ben loved it. One day, we realized that he wasn't bouncing any longer. It was taking Ben longer and longer to get up. My dad took him to the vet where they knocked him out and took pictures of his hips. He lived two more years. Never finished his championship. My dad refused to breed him even though he was offered big bucks for his lineage, size, and show potential. His hips were almost completely out of their sockets. He was treated with pain meds and kept as comfortable as possible. His arthritis was too far advanced that surgery was out of the question. When he could no longer get up comfortably, the vet came to the house and put him down in the back yard. 

I understand what it is to have a pup who suffers. Considering the number of animals that I have had as companions... I've been through so much with them. I've watched my animals die of old age or parasite infestation or some other disease. It never gets any easier. 

On the other hand, each animal has enhanced my life. Each animal has given me more than I could ever give in return.


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## LizShort

tippykayak said:


> Hey there. I'm sorry that one of my posts was one of the less friendly. You wouldn't believe the number of people who come on here for breeding advice who haven't thought things through. So I apologize for being concerned you were one of those people.
> 
> thank you and I understand your concern. It makes me very sad to hear about backyard breeders who just say... hmmm I'd like to breed that dog with mine... and then do it. Ending up with horrible issues.
> 
> I also understand that this forum would have many who come looking for breeding advice and then not even take it into consideration. I'm sure it's frustrating.


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## LizShort

tanyac said:


> Well Liz, I applaud the fact that you've thought long and hard about getting a dog, you obviously know the responsibility that comes with ownership. And it looks like it will be a mutually beneficial relationship - a family who will love the dog and a dog who will give so much back to his family.
> 
> Good luck and can't wait to see puppy pics, although as others have said, be very sure about such things as health clearances before you sign on the dotted line or have your heart won over (very difficult not to!).


yes... I've gone through everything I can think of. Went through lists of breeds, went through the pros and cons, even went through what the cats might think. I determined how my lifestyle would affect my pup (as a school teacher I can have long long days) and even got permission to bring him to school with me as a therapy dog for some of my most violent of students. 

This is going to be a new chapter in my life. I have already planned the camping trip we are going to take later on in the summer and how I am going to make sure my ADHD 12 yr old is able to meet Jake in a calm manner and teach him to work with the pup in a calm manner. How to teach Jake to calm down after playing hard and figuring out what play will be allowed and what play will not. I will work on teaching Jake to retrieve as soon as I get him home. That way, Jake and Christopher will have a specific way to play that will keep them both safe (more for Jake's sake).

this is going to be the longest 3 weeks of my life!!!


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## LizShort

I wanted to put this back up there with an update. 

Gap View has too many pups to be able to assess the pups they have. Dave buys from lines with championships but does not show. 

His facilities are very clean but they are kept by other people. He does have a full time vet tech on staff, but she has no time to work with all the pups.

Dave is not a bad person. He does make all his money through breeding though. He has far more dogs than he can love and give attention to. His pups are raised on cement and straw. The pup I picked up had never been on grass. On the other hand, this pup held EVERYTHING for 12 hours because he couldn't find any straw. 

Not sure what else to say with out putting my feelings into this. Just wanted to put this info in just in case others were looking for recomendations.


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## Pointgold

LizShort said:


> I wanted to put this back up there with an update.
> 
> Gap View has too many pups to be able to assess the pups they have. Dave buys from lines with championships but does not show.
> 
> His facilities are very clean but they are kept by other people. He does have a full time vet tech on staff, but she has no time to work with all the pups.
> 
> Dave is not a bad person. He does make all his money through breeding though. He has far more dogs than he can love and give attention to. His pups are raised on cement and straw. The pup I picked up had never been on grass. On the other hand, this pup held EVERYTHING for 12 hours because he couldn't find any straw.
> 
> Not sure what else to say with out putting my feelings into this. Just wanted to put this info in just in case others were looking for recomendations.


 
I wonder if the breeders that he is purchasing his dogs from have any idea what ends up being done with them...

This is nothing more than a clean puppy mill. 

For your first pup not to have been identified as missing a toe and having other issues, it would suggest that a vet is not seeing these dogs, and the tech is certainly not enough or perhaps not even competent. I cannot even begin to imagine having a litter and not going over every single puppy with a fine tooth comb, at birth, and every day after. 

I just cannot condone puppies as a cash crop, especially when they cannot be cared for properly.


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## NuttinButGoldens

I see this is an older thread  No need for me to re-post.


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## Noey

Pointgold said:


> I wonder if the breeders that he is purchasing his dogs from have any idea what ends up being done with them...
> 
> This is nothing more than a clean puppy mill.
> 
> For your first pup not to have been identified as missing a toe and having other issues, it would suggest that a vet is not seeing these dogs, and the tech is certainly not enough or perhaps not even competent. I cannot even begin to imagine having a litter and not going over every single puppy with a fine tooth comb, at birth, and every day after.
> .


whos pup was missing a toe?


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## NuttinButGoldens

You know, that's actually a very good question. In my case no, and I've not heard of one.

My Vet was so impressed with Comet's overall health, attitude, friendliness etc... that I got a lot of calls from her when one of her other owners had one pass away, and she wanted to be reminded where he came from. We eventually put their business card in Comet's record 

EDIT: I will be informing my old Vet of the new circumstances that seem to have occurred at Gap View. What a ****** shame 



bigds01 said:


> Has anyone actually had a bad experience with Gap View? Is there something I am missing?


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## NuttinButGoldens

Oh, dear. I fear maybe David is getting in over his head. It wasn't like this there when I got Comet, but Howard (his business partner) was running the kennel back then.

This may also explain why his paperwork seems to be in a bit of disarray 





LizShort said:


> I wanted to put this back up there with an update.
> 
> Gap View has too many pups to be able to assess the pups they have. Dave buys from lines with championships but does not show.
> 
> His facilities are very clean but they are kept by other people. He does have a full time vet tech on staff, but she has no time to work with all the pups.
> 
> Dave is not a bad person. He does make all his money through breeding though. He has far more dogs than he can love and give attention to. His pups are raised on cement and straw. The pup I picked up had never been on grass. On the other hand, this pup held EVERYTHING for 12 hours because he couldn't find any straw.
> 
> Not sure what else to say with out putting my feelings into this. Just wanted to put this info in just in case others were looking for recomendations.


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## NuttinButGoldens

Dear, dear  I'm afraid I think I have to drop the place down several notches in my view after reading that update 

I can only hope that David figure out he's too far over his head to properly care for the dogs, and scales back. A lot. If he doesn't, then I'm afraid Pointgold is right.




Pointgold said:


> I wonder if the breeders that he is purchasing his dogs from have any idea what ends up being done with them...
> 
> This is nothing more than a clean puppy mill.
> 
> For your first pup not to have been identified as missing a toe and having other issues, it would suggest that a vet is not seeing these dogs, and the tech is certainly not enough or perhaps not even competent. I cannot even begin to imagine having a litter and not going over every single puppy with a fine tooth comb, at birth, and every day after.
> 
> I just cannot condone puppies as a cash crop, especially when they cannot be cared for properly.


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## Tahnee GR

And this is the problem when one tries to make a living by breeding. It is too tempting to take shortcuts, whether it is in the care the dogs and puppies receive, or in doing clearances, etc.


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## Noey

NuttinButGoldens said:


> Oh, dear. I fear maybe David is getting in over his head. It wasn't like this there when I got Comet, but Howard (his business partner) was running the kennel back then.
> 
> This may also explain why his paperwork seems to be in a bit of disarray


I'm still missing a "bad experience" and a missing toe.

And I'm really just going to hold back my comments as I'm highly annoyed.


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## LizShort

Noey, it was my first Jake that I picked up and returned on Saturday June 13. It wasn't just a toe that was missing, there were a number of other neurological issues at the same time. It was a very tough situation. I was offered my money back or a pick from a different litter. I chose from a different litter because the parents were not from Gap View but breeders in CA who have shown and gone through all the work to get the championships etc. 

As for this being a clean puppy mill... I am inclined to agree. Next pup will not be from Gap View. 

As for the "breeder," Dave is a very nice man, but he is in over his head. He had 6 litters on the ground and was losing pups due to moms stepping on babies, still births, etc. When I heard about that, I should have asked for my money back, but he had a no refund policy unless the dog proved to be unsound. 

New Jake is adorable, already house broken, smart as a whip. He has already gotten the hint about what the "leave it" command and comes when he is called. 

On the down side, he is very much an alpha. When I saw him the first time, he was humping all the other pups in with him. I looked and said who ever has chosen taht dog has their work cut out for them due to his dominance issues. Ummm.... I guess that would be that will be me who must deal with those. He has shown some attitude, but that will quickly be nipped in the butt. I have also owned a "bite dog" who had some agression issues. If I can deal with a 150 pound adult Akbash Dog (Turkish livestock protection dog) I think a puppy will not be difficult to take care of. 

Anyway.... Lesson learned. I'm sorry that Gap View has taken such a downward turn. ::sigh:: Maybe Dave will get his act together and get things straightened out soon.


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## Noey

: ( this is sad. I sent you a note.

Now I understand and I'm mad for you.


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## bigds01

No offense, but we pick up our dog on Friday from Dave and have thought what a great experience we have had. We have championship dogs currently, are huge financial donors to animal causes and are quite pleased with Dave and his facility. 

When we picked out our pup two weeks ago, we could easily tell which dogs were alpha and which were not. Also the dogs are constantly handled. I see absolutely nothing wrong with someone actually running a professional breeding establishment vs. backyard breeder. 

I did indepth research into Dave, guess how many actual complaints are posted on the web? 0. Unless you can say that he has done something wrong or produces bad dogs, keep it to yourself.

Don't mean to be vocal, but he produces a good product with a proven track record.

If I read the earlier post, you selected a bad dog this past SATURDAY, were unhappy about it, Dave replaced it, you now have a dog 2 days later that is all ready house broken and you are still complaining?


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## Florabora22

bigds01 said:


> No offense, but we pick up our dog on Friday from Dave and have thought what a great experience we have had. We have championship dogs currently, are huge financial donors to animal causes and are quite pleased with Dave and his facility.
> 
> When we picked out our pup two weeks ago, we could easily tell which dogs were alpha and which were not. Also the dogs are constantly handled. I see absolutely nothing wrong with someone actually running a professional breeding establishment vs. backyard breeder.
> 
> I did indepth research into Dave, guess how many actual complaints are posted on the web? 0. Unless you can say that he has done something wrong or produces bad dogs, keep it to yourself.
> 
> Don't mean to be vocal, but he produces a good product with a proven track record.
> 
> If I read the earlier post, you selected a bad dog this past SATURDAY, were unhappy about it, Dave replaced it, you now have a dog 2 days later that is all ready house broken and you are still complaining?


She's not really complaining. Just laying things out. She got a dog with supposedly severe issues, and somehow all that slipped by the breeders. You can't blame her for being a little confused/disappointed/frustrated over that.


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## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> No offense, but we pick up our dog on Friday from Dave and have thought what a great experience we have had. We have championship dogs currently, are huge financial donors to animal causes and are quite pleased with Dave and his facility.
> 
> When we picked out our pup two weeks ago, we could easily tell which dogs were alpha and which were not. Also the dogs are constantly handled. I see absolutely nothing wrong with someone actually running a professional breeding establishment vs. backyard breeder.
> 
> I did indepth research into Dave, guess how many actual complaints are posted on the web? 0. Unless you can say that he has done something wrong or produces bad dogs, keep it to yourself.
> 
> Don't mean to be vocal, but he produces a good product with a proven track record.
> 
> If I read the earlier post, you selected a bad dog this past SATURDAY, were unhappy about it, Dave replaced it, you now have a dog 2 days later that is all ready house broken and you are still complaining?


 
May I ask, again, about your championship dogs? Does this mean that you show, and your dogs are champions?


----------



## Ljilly28

It is helpful to search K9data.com by breeder, by owner, and by kennel name in separate searches to get an overall look at what a kennel name has been able to achieve with its dogs. Then follow up with AKC/Infodog. I did this with Gap View and its owner/breeder, and was able to see if there were any championship dogs/high performance dogs listed among the many there(no). That might help give realistic expectations for a pup. It is sad if a puppy meant to be a pet has pressure to be a show puppy, but not the realistic potential. Maybe there are CH dogs who are not listed, or maybe the poster has the right puppy- k9data /Infodog/AKC gives a good sense of the _likely_, though.


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## tippykayak

bigds01 said:


> If I read the earlier post, you selected a bad dog this past SATURDAY, were unhappy about it, Dave replaced it, you now have a dog 2 days later that is all ready house broken and you are still complaining?


I think she was unhappy that she was sold a dog with neurological problems anybody who spent a couple of hours with it would have noticed.

She didn't say Gap View had cheated her, simply that her experience raised some serious concerns for her. Frankly, I thought her posts generally erred on the side of fairness.


----------



## Pointgold

Ljilly28 said:


> It is helpful to search K9data.com by breeder, by owner, and by kennel name in separate searches to get an overall look at what a kennel name has been able to achieve with its dogs. Then follow up with AKC/Infodog. I did this with Gap View and its owner/breeder, and was able to see if there were any championship dogs/high performance dogs listed among the many there(no). That might help give realistic expectations for a pup. It is sad if a puppy meant to be a pet has pressure to be a show puppy, but not the realistic potential. Maybe there are CH dogs who are not listed, or maybe the poster has the right puppy- k9data /Infodog/AKC gives a good sense of the _likely_, though.


\

Gap View Kennel supporters seem to think that dogs from Gap View are shown or competing in other venues. Unless they are registered under names not utilizing Gap View as a prefix, I sure have not found any. And the use of the word "championship" means little. A champion can be found in nearly any pedigree, if you look back far enough - even in BYB and puppy mill breedings. This is one of the reasons that reputable breeders were so happy when limited registration became available - it has helped prevent indiscriminate breedings being made. Touting "champion bloodlines" means little unless sire/dam, or, at the very _least _grandsire/grandam are champions of record. To say that your dogs are "championship dogs" is untrue unless they themselves have competed and are champions of record.
And, interestly, many of the mill or HVB operations use the word "champion" as a marketing tool while at the same time denegrating those who do show. (GoldRocks is an example.)

I again looked at Gap View's website last night, and there are many red flags there, not the least of them that they will let pups go as early as 6 weeks old.


----------



## Noey

well I understand why Liz was upset, I would be as well. Why they pup departed in such a condition would have to be asked about and I'm surprised that would happen. 

I have a pup from them and we will be getting our second, and as I've said before he is great. I admit I'm a novice, but I think Dave breeds “good pets.” I have seen him interact with his dogs and he knows each on a "pet" level and cares very deeply for them. He cares about the health of his Goldens very much. And if you want allows you to spend as much time with the pups/dogs as you want.

My understanding about the puppy who died was that the mom sadly rolled on one of the pups, a litter of 13. This happened and Dave is very upfront and sad about the loss of the pup. (and before anyone remarks because it’s a lost sale, that is not the case in my opinion) But when your breeding dogs for 20+ years I think these things sadly happen.

As for pups not being socialized and or on grass is false from our perspective. Dave lets the puppies socialize and be socialized. HE has fenced in fields they can run and play in. When we visit we always play with the pups and interact with all the adult dogs. And Dave’s pups are pretty much always all spoken for. We have met people from various states who know people with a Goldens from Dave and are coming to VA to get one and we keep in contact with others who have pups form the same litter.

Dave runs a working farm, boarding kennel, and breeds goldens and rescues goldens. I’m not positive if the statement about him making all his money via the dogs is correct as it is a working farm/boarding kennel for Goldens as well. He has a staff that work with him and the staff we met all interact with the goldens. “He has far more Goldens than he can give love and attention” is also a pretty bias statement. Dave appears to "live" for his Goldens and knows each well. 

In fairness to his vet tech, she is great with the pups and far from “has no time to work with the pups.” But I can’t speak for what went wrong with Lizs situation. It boggles the mind.

I would think if this was horrible/”puppy mill” it would not be running for 20+ years. And I would think I would find complaints and unsatisfied Golden owners, but this has not been my experience. I would think I would have found complaints on record someplace? It's a open public breeder that allows visits anytime or by appointment. Don't they have people who check on places? Maybe I'm a fool, but I'm also not sure why if they are so bad you would still take a pup from them.

It has just not been my experience or the experience of others I know with pups form them. I don't know sometimes this board makes me feel really stupid on this front.


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## bigds01

Pointgold said:


> May I ask, again, about your championship dogs? Does this mean that you show, and your dogs are champions?


Sure. Both our English Bulldog and Smooth Collie had Grandparents that were Westminster shown and both sets of Parents were regional champions on their way to either Eukanuba or Westminster. 

We do not show our dogs as they are companion pets. We could have and decided not to.

BTW---- I am not expecting a CH out of gap view, just a good dog.


----------



## bigds01

Noey said:


> well I understand why Liz was upset, I would be as well. Why they pup departed in such a condition would have to be asked about and I'm surprised that would happen.
> 
> I have a pup from them and we will be getting our second, and as I've said before he is great. I admit I'm a novice, but I think Dave breeds “good pets.” I have seen him interact with his dogs and he knows each on a "pet" level and cares very deeply for them. He cares about the health of his Goldens very much. And if you want allows you to spend as much time with the pups/dogs as you want.
> 
> My understanding about the puppy who died was that the mom sadly rolled on one of the pups, a litter of 13. This happened and Dave is very upfront and sad about the loss of the pup. (and before anyone remarks because it’s a lost sale, that is not the case in my opinion) But when your breeding dogs for 20+ years I think these things sadly happen.
> 
> As for pups not being socialized and or on grass is false from our perspective. Dave lets the puppies socialize and be socialized. HE has fenced in fields they can run and play in. When we visit we always play with the pups and interact with all the adult dogs. And Dave’s pups are pretty much always all spoken for. We have met people from various states who know people with a Goldens from Dave and are coming to VA to get one and we keep in contact with others who have pups form the same litter.
> 
> Dave runs a working farm, boarding kennel, and breeds goldens and rescues goldens. I’m not positive if the statement about him making all his money via the dogs is correct as it is a working farm/boarding kennel for Goldens as well. He has a staff that work with him and the staff we met all interact with the goldens. “He has far more Goldens than he can give love and attention” is also a pretty bias statement. Dave appears to "live" for his Goldens and knows each well.
> 
> In fairness to his vet tech, she is great with the pups and far from “has no time to work with the pups.” But I can’t speak for what went wrong with Lizs situation. It boggles the mind.
> 
> I would think if this was horrible/”puppy mill” it would not be running for 20+ years. And I would think I would find complaints and unsatisfied Golden owners, but this has not been my experience. I would think I would have found complaints on record someplace? It's a open public breeder that allows visits anytime or by appointment. Don't they have people who check on places? Maybe I'm a fool, but I'm also not sure why if they are so bad you would still take a pup from them.
> 
> It has just not been my experience or the experience of others I know with pups form them. I don't know sometimes this board makes me feel really stupid on this front.



We are actually getting our pup from Nicole whom is the mom that had the accident with a pup. It was a litter of 13, sometimes that happens.


----------



## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> Sure. Both our English Bulldog and Smooth Collie had Grandparents that were Westminster shown and both sets of Parents were regional champions on their way to either Eukanuba or Westminster.
> 
> We do not show our dogs as they are companion pets. We could have and decided not to.
> 
> BTW---- I am not expecting a CH out of gap view, just a good dog.


What is a "regional champion"? What kennel is your Smooth from? 
I have a Smooth Collie, he is an AKC champion of record - 
Ch Montague Jaguar XJ.


----------



## LizShort

Okay... it seems as I have again not chosen my words well  My experience was probably a rare one. When I talked to Dave about Nicole rolling on her pup, he was very sad and I can't say why but he was genuinely sad about it.

Dave is very nice and wants to make sure that everything is done fairly and you are satisfied with your pup. I did not go to him for a conformation dog, I went looking for a Rally and Obedience pup who would be good with my son and a good companion.

Ann, his vet tech, has been a sweetheart. She has helped me a great deal and was also very upset when the pups died. She was willing to pick out our pup because we are seven hours away from Broadway VA. She was willing to do all the personality checks, etc. I wanted to pick my pup myself. 

That a pup was missing a toe and had many other issues that weren't seen may have been a fluke. I don't know. I'm just recounting my experience.

When I got Jake2, Dave told me that he had never been on grass. It was his own words. That did bother me quite a bit. I feel Jake should have had some time on the grass so I would know if there might be some allergies that I might have to contend with. As it is, there are none so far.

I have met a few who have had a wonderful experience with Dave and his pups. My experience was very fair. He offered me my money back or a choice of another pup. I did not have to pick the pup who was humping all the others in the pen. My choice. This was the only one there that I noticed doing that. 

I was able to play with all the dogs I wanted to. I played with Biscuit and Leslie (who, btw, is the sweetest creature on the planet). I wrestled with Bronson (my main reason for loving big dogs <G>) 

All his dogs get time in a large area for playing with each other and anyone who wants to come and play. He is meticulous about the cleanliness of his operation.

I did not mean to give any negative comments, just laying out what I went through. I won't be buying another gap view pup and that is a personal decision. I will be looking (in a couple of years) for a pup who comes directly from obedience or field trial lines because that is my interest. 

Jake is an amazing pet and will make an amazing obedience dog. He has a great deal to offer and continues to amaze me every day. For example he is now going to the door when he needs to go out. AT SIX WEEKS OLD!!! I can't say I'm ecstatic about him being only 6 weeks, but here he is. He crate trained himself. He is calm and wonderful. I see good things in my future and his.

I can only say what I have experienced. Dave is fair. He has more than 46 dogs in his operation. He breeds his bitches every other year. He has lots of room for them to play. His facilities are very clean. My original Jake had major health issues that were not spotted by him or his staff. New Jake is wonderful.


----------



## bigds01

LizShort said:


> Okay... it seems as I have again not chosen my words well  My experience was probably a rare one. When I talked to Dave about Nicole rolling on her pup, he was very sad and I can't say why but he was genuinely sad about it.
> 
> Dave is very nice and wants to make sure that everything is done fairly and you are satisfied with your pup. I did not go to him for a conformation dog, I went looking for a Rally and Obedience pup who would be good with my son and a good companion.
> 
> Ann, his vet tech, has been a sweetheart. She has helped me a great deal and was also very upset when the pups died. She was willing to pick out our pup because we are seven hours away from Broadway VA. She was willing to do all the personality checks, etc. I wanted to pick my pup myself.
> 
> That a pup was missing a toe and had many other issues that weren't seen may have been a fluke. I don't know. I'm just recounting my experience.
> 
> When I got Jake2, Dave told me that he had never been on grass. It was his own words. That did bother me quite a bit. I feel Jake should have had some time on the grass so I would know if there might be some allergies that I might have to contend with. As it is, there are none so far.
> 
> I have met a few who have had a wonderful experience with Dave and his pups. My experience was very fair. He offered me my money back or a choice of another pup. I did not have to pick the pup who was humping all the others in the pen. My choice. This was the only one there that I noticed doing that.
> 
> I was able to play with all the dogs I wanted to. I played with Biscuit and Leslie (who, btw, is the sweetest creature on the planet). I wrestled with Bronson (my main reason for loving big dogs <G>)
> 
> All his dogs get time in a large area for playing with each other and anyone who wants to come and play. He is meticulous about the cleanliness of his operation.
> 
> I did not mean to give any negative comments, just laying out what I went through. I won't be buying another gap view pup and that is a personal decision. I will be looking (in a couple of years) for a pup who comes directly from obedience or field trial lines because that is my interest.
> 
> Jake is an amazing pet and will make an amazing obedience dog. He has a great deal to offer and continues to amaze me every day. For example he is now going to the door when he needs to go out. AT SIX WEEKS OLD!!! I can't say I'm ecstatic about him being only 6 weeks, but here he is. He crate trained himself. He is calm and wonderful. I see good things in my future and his.
> 
> I can only say what I have experienced. Dave is fair. He has more than 46 dogs in his operation. He breeds his bitches every other year. He has lots of room for them to play. His facilities are very clean. My original Jake had major health issues that were not spotted by him or his staff. New Jake is wonderful.


He also told me that he won't breed the same bitch more then 3 times, although I will say I didn't research that.


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## Pointgold

I don't believe that anyone has made any comments about the breeder's personal character, only his breeding practices, which I cannot condone. He may be a saint of a human being, that is not the issue. No puppy should be released at 6 weeks. If a litter is being properly cared for there is no way that a missing toe or a neurological deficit would go unnoticed.


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## bigds01

Pointgold said:


> I don't believe that anyone has made any comments about the breeder's personal character, only his breeding practices, which I cannot condone. He may be a saint of a human being, that is not the issue. No puppy should be released at 6 weeks. If a litter is being properly cared for there is no way that a missing toe or a neurological deficit would go unnoticed.


I am more then willing to use different breeders based upon feedback. All I have asked for is negative experiences. So far there is 1. If he produces as many dogs as we know he does, wouldn't there be more complaints some where if he had bad pups? This is the largest golden website in the world and the first complaint of an actual dog was yesterday. I am not being antagonistic, just want to know that I am making the right decision. Until I hear otherwise, I will defer to the best in people.


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## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> I am more then willing to use different breeders based upon feedback. All I have asked for is negative experiences. So far there is 1. If he produces as many dogs as we know he does, wouldn't there be more complaints some where if he had bad pups? This is the largest golden website in the world and the first complaint of an actual dog was yesterday. I am not being antagonistic, just want to know that I am making the right decision. Until I hear otherwise, I will defer to the best in people.


And that is your choice. However, you might consider that this breeder, while not a member of the GRCA (which in itself is not a "bad" thing), is practicing several things that would be in violation of the Code of Ethics of the parent club of the breed, and no matter what breed, are simply common sense. And just because there are no complaints on the internet doesn't mean that he has 100% satisfaction from puppy buyers. *MANY *people purchase puppies and are not aware that there is any recourse for them if they do have problems, such as hip dysplasia, or eye problems, and *MANY *puppy buyers are not even aware that their puppy _has _any of the genetic health issues because the do not check for them.

Very nice people can be poor breeders.


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## Pointgold

http://www.gapviewkennel.com/pdf_files/puppy_contract.pdf

This is the sales contract for Gap View. Of particular interest is #1, and #3.


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## Noey

Pointgold said:


> http://www.gapviewkennel.com/pdf_files/puppy_contract.pdf
> 
> This is the sales contract for Gap View. Of particular interest is #1, and #3.


Your going to have to explain why. (please) And I'm not being picky...just learning. I think it's 100% impossible to prevent everything. You can have the best of everything and still get hit with an unknown. 
Thanks


----------



## bigds01

Pointgold said:


> And that is your choice. However, you might consider that this breeder, while not a member of the GRCA (which in itself is not a "bad" thing), is practicing several things that would be in violation of the Code of Ethics of the parent club of the breed, and no matter what breed, are simply common sense. And just because there are no complaints on the internet doesn't mean that he has 100% satisfaction from puppy buyers. *MANY *people purchase puppies and are not aware that there is any recourse for them if they do have problems, such as hip dysplasia, or eye problems, and *MANY *puppy buyers are not even aware that their puppy _has _any of the genetic health issues because the do not check for them.
> 
> Very nice people can be poor breeders.



You haven't been to their facility. You haven't met them. You haven't been able to produce other then Liz's experience on Saturday one complaint. Unless you want to pm me what I am missing, this seems like much of nothing.


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## PeanutsMom

It's good that he doesn't want them to be bred without clearances, better not to breed at all, but still better than some, right? And of course he can't guarantee a puppy will grow up to win in the ring? I'm curious too as to whats bad in those two lines?


----------



## Ljilly28

PeanutsMom said:


> It's good that he doesn't want them to be bred without clearances, better not to breed at all, but still better than some, right? And of course he can't guarantee a puppy will grow up to win in the ring? I'm curious too as to whats bad in those two lines?


I can't read PG's mind, but here is what would concern me about # 1 and prevent me from purchasing a pup. There is no elbow requirement, and no recourse if your pup does have dysplasia or a cardiac condition. 

I was unlucky, and purchased a pup who has elbow dysplasia though her parents, grandparents, and all but one great grandparent were OFA normal and had CHIC numbers. However, the breeder returned the FULL purchase price of our pup, which really helped her get the surgery she needed. I am a person who, first hand, knows the value of a contract. 

It doesnt sound like a big deal in theory until it's your puppy who needs a 5,500 dollar hip replacement or 2,500 arthoscopic elbow surgery in reality.


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## tippykayak

Noey said:


> Your going to have to explain why. (please) And I'm not being picky...just learning. I think it's 100% impossible to prevent everything. You can have the best of everything and still get hit with an unknown.
> Thanks


I'll take a stab at #1. Lots of very good breeders will guarantee against genetically-influenced conditions like dysplasia. They'll offer to take the pup back or refund the purchase price to put it towards whatever medical care the dog needs.


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## Doolin

I agree with Jill that elbows should be included, although any health issue should be included even allergies.

What concerns me about this contract is that every puppy that leaves Gap View is sold on FULL REGISTRATION. I am sorry if I offend but that is not something reputable breeders practice. I think #3 was more a issue with some in that there is a claim that every puppy is of Show Quality. It may have been just a misuse of words, but I have yet to see a litter of puppies where everyone was show quality. 

My biggest problem is that giving the permission to any Joe Shmoe off the streets to breed is just not in the best interest of this breed. Sorry to offend, but I put in my time and research to give my litters the best possible odds of haveing healthy well tempered puppies.


----------



## tippykayak

bigds01 said:


> You haven't been to their facility. You haven't met them. You haven't been able to produce other then Liz's experience on Saturday one complaint. Unless you want to pm me what I am missing, this seems like much of nothing.


I'm not sure why you're so passionately defending this kennel. PG simply pointed out that the apparent breeding practices, according to what you can glean from the website, don't fully comply with the GRCA's code of ethics. That's something that would concern many of us. What's so confusing about that?


----------



## bigds01

Doolin said:


> I agree with Jill that elbows should be included, although any health issue should be included even allergies.
> 
> What concerns me about this contract is that every puppy that leaves Gap View is sold on FULL REGISTRATION. I am sorry if I offend but that is not something reputable breeders practice. I think #3 was more a issue with some in that there is a claim that every puppy is of Show Quality. It may have been just a misuse of words, but I have yet to see a litter of puppies where everyone was show quality.
> 
> My biggest problem is that giving the permission to any Joe Shmoe off the streets to breed is just not in the best interest of this breed. Sorry to offend, but I put in my time and research to give my litters the best possible odds of haveing healthy well tempered puppies.


Now that I will fully agree with. I can tell you after everyone's advice on the contract I did ask Dave about the fact that things don't pop as quickly as the contract stated, and he immediately offered to adjust as necessary.

He also said moving forward they would be doing elbows since everyone is asking for it now.


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## Pointgold

No elbows are cleared, for one thing. Puppies are sold on full registration, for another, and while he says that clearances are required before breeding, there is no consequence if there is not, and as the buyers already have full registration, they can register pups. 
3 weeks to discern if there is a hereditary problem is a joke, frankly.
Sending pups home at 6 weeks old is, in my book, a recipe for problems, and unfair to both puppy and buyer.
As for #3, this breeder is purporting that every puppy he sells is of "sound breed/show quality". That is nonsense. Those of us who are breeding with the hopes of producing our next champion, using champion of record sires and dams, are not so naive as to think that we are producing entire litters of "show quality", or even "breed quality" puppies, and are happy to finish one or two out of a litter. We have others help to evaluate our puppies, and here, Mr. Gap View is deeming puppies not even produced yet as "show/breed quality". (Much like GoldRocks deeming unborn puppies as "service dogs".)

I'll defend th recommendations of the GRCA any time, and although I'm not so rigid as to believe that _every_one should be a member, the fact that they are the parent club for the breed, and have nothing but the best interest of the breed as the very foundation of their existence, I would think that anyone who claims to want to do their best by the dogs would strive to comply with the COE and guidelines that the GRCA has set forth.


----------



## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> You haven't been to their facility. You haven't met them. You haven't been able to produce other then Liz's experience on Saturday one complaint. Unless you want to pm me what I am missing, this seems like much of nothing.


You are right. I have not met them, and as I have said, I am not making any commentary on them as human beings, only on their breeding practices. Their facility might be the nicest on earth, but that does not change the fact that I do not agree with those breeding practices, and do not feel that there is any way that the number of dogs, and number of litters, can be properly cared for by the number of staff that they have. And the situation with Liz's first Jake is a perfect example. There is simply no excuse for that having gone unnoticed. 

On another note, I am very interested in where your Smooth Collie came from. As I said, I have an AKC champion of record Smooth male, and am very interested in the breed. I would also lie to know what a "regional champion" is.


----------



## bigds01

Pointgold said:


> You are right. I have not met them, and as I have said, I am not making any commentary on them as human beings, only on their breeding practices. Their facility might be the nicest on earth, but that does not change the fact that I do not agree with those breeding practices, and do not feel that there is any way that the number of dogs, and number of litters, can be properly cared for by the number of staff that they have. And the situation with Liz's first Jake is a perfect example. There is simply no excuse for that having gone unnoticed.
> 
> On another note, I am very interested in where your Smooth Collie came from. As I said, I have an AKC champion of record Smooth male, and am very interested in the breed. I would also lie to know what a "regional champion" is.



I honestly can't remember which breeder we used for the collie. I spent three weeks trying to when we decided to get another dog including calling every vet we ever used as we got her 8 years ago. And both dogs parents place 1st or second in conformation at the Club/AKC recognized regional specialties.


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## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> I honestly can't remember which breeder we used for the collie. I spent three weeks trying to when we decided to get another dog including calling every vet we ever used as we got her 8 years ago. And both dogs parents place 1st or second in conformation at the Club/AKC recognized regional specialties.


Thanks. Do you know how a dog earns an AKC championship?


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## damita

I also noticed that 5 of the dogs on the "sires" page had no hip clearances, not one elbow clearance and only one dog who had his eyes checked more than once (and it was only twice). For the Dams I couldn't even find registered names to check what clearances they had and all heart clearances were done by a general vet which should have been done by a cardiologist.

And I don't care but 5 litters born in one month? HVB at best but I know many who would call this a puppy mill.


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## NuttinButGoldens

I can kind of understand it. She is a happy customer. I got a GREAT dog there.

But that was 12 years ago. I can't help but accept the fact that things may have changed however...



tippykayak said:


> I'm not sure why you're so passionately defending this kennel. PG simply pointed out that the apparent breeding practices, according to what you can glean from the website, don't fully comply with the GRCA's code of ethics. That's something that would concern many of us. What's so confusing about that?


----------



## buckeyegoldenmom

Pointgold said:


> Thanks. Do you know how a dog earns an AKC championship?


I really do not think many people understand what an AKC champion dog is. I think there are many breeders (I use the term loosely) who claim to have champion dogs or "champion lines" just because there are maybe one or two dogs in the 5 generation pedigree with a "CH" before their name.


----------



## Pointgold

buckeyegoldenmom said:


> I really do not think many people understand what an AKC champion dog is. I think there are many breeders (I use the term loosely) who claim to have champion dogs or "champion lines" just because there are maybe one or two dogs in the 5 generation pedigree with a "CH" before their name.


You are exactly right. And there are those who think that getting _any _ribbon at a dog show means that dog is a champion. (Boy, sometimes I WISH that were true!


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## sammydog

bigds01 said:


> I honestly can't remember which breeder we used for the collie. I spent three weeks trying to when we decided to get another dog including calling every vet we ever used as we got her 8 years ago. And both dogs parents place 1st or second in conformation at the Club/AKC recognized regional specialties.


You can look up the parents in the dogs pedigree... That should give you an idea of the breeder...


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## Pointgold

sammydog said:


> You can look up the parents in the dogs pedigree... That should give you an idea of the breeder...


 
Even easier, the breeder's name is right on the registration slip.


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## sammydog

Pointgold said:


> Even easier, the breeder's name is right on the registration slip.


:doh: Now that is EASY! Forgot about that...


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## NuttinButGoldens

I really, really wish I could show Gilmour. Sadly, I just don't have the time for it. And that's not why I bought him. He's simply ma boy 

He has 40 American and AM/Canadian Champions in his 5 year Pedigree. I can't help but think he would do really well in the right handlers hands.

He's just as happy to have his tummy rubbed 



buckeyegoldenmom said:


> I really do not think many people understand what an AKC champion dog is. I think there are many breeders (I use the term loosely) who claim to have champion dogs or "champion lines" just because there are maybe one or two dogs in the 5 generation pedigree with a "CH" before their name.


----------



## Pointgold

NuttinButGoldens said:


> I really, really wish I could show Gilmour. Sadly, I just don't have the time for it. And that's not why I bought him. He's simply ma boy
> 
> He has 40 American and AM/Canadian Champions in his 5 year Pedigree. I can't help but think he would do really well in the right handlers hands.
> 
> He's just as happy to have his tummy rubbed


I was showing an Australian Cattle Dog this weekend, and she showed like a pro ( she's only a tad over a year old). When we moved back to the judge on the down and back, she hit a free stack, wagging her tail. He took a step towards her, said "What a pretty girl!" and she fell over like a tipped cow, all fours up, and looked at him, wiggle butting for a tummy rub. The judge got it right away, and bent down, rubbed her tum, and said "Okay, you! Around you go now..." She popped up, shook off, and trotted smartly around the ring. Voila! Best of Breed she was! :doh:


----------



## NuttinButGoldens

Now that's just hilarious  Congratulations!



Pointgold said:


> I was showing an Australian Cattle Dog this weekend, and she showed like a pro ( she's only a tad over a year old). When we moved back to the judge on the down and back, she hit a free stack, wagging her tail. He took a step towards her, said "What a pretty girl!" and she fell over like a tipped cow, all fours up, and looked at him, wiggle butting for a tummy rub. The judge got it right away, and bent down, rubbed her tum, and said "Okay, you! Around you go now..." She popped up, shook off, and trotted smartly around the ring. Voila! Best of Breed she was! :doh:


----------



## Pointgold

NuttinButGoldens said:


> Now that's just hilarious  Congratulations!


 It _was _funny. Sorta.  She is _very _naughty. Her breeder/owner misnamed her. She is a darling little red roan bitch, and they should have named her Rick's Devil In A Red Dress!!! (Her name is Rick's Magic Tricks)


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## bigds01

Pointgold said:


> You are exactly right. And there are those who think that getting _any _ribbon at a dog show means that dog is a champion. (Boy, sometimes I WISH that were true!


You know the funny thing, in the brief time that I have been reading the website, I keep seeing people ask for breeders. The standard response is call the GRCA. How about those of you whom proclaim the omnipresent knowledge of who are good breeders share that information with those of us the come to the Delphi?

Some of us actually fly places to pick up animals and the physical location of the breeder is quite meaningless. So there is a fork in the road, either we as a community become more vocal on whom we recommend or we stay silent.

And to the earlier point of do I know what it takes to make a dog a champion, my response is nope and I don't care. When I see all of the grandparents competing at a national level, and that little ch title is next to 5 generations of dogs (and I mean everyone of them) , including parents, then the odds are I am buying from one heck of a lineage.

Every breeder can have a bad dog. Funny thing is a westlaw search didn't show a single lawsuit filed against Dave. I don't care what anyone says, produce enough products and someone will get pissed and sue. In his case, he seems to have all happy customers.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

bigds01 said:


> You know the funny thing, in the brief time that I have been reading the website, I keep seeing people ask for breeders. The standard response is call the GRCA. How about those of you whom proclaim the omnipresent knowledge of who are good breeders share that information with those of us the come to the Delphi?
> 
> Some of us actually fly places to pick up animals and the physical location of the breeder is quite meaningless. So there is a fork in the road, either we as a community become more vocal on whom we recommend or we stay silent.
> 
> And to the earlier point of do I know what it takes to make a dog a champion, my response is nope and I don't care. When I see all of the grandparents competing at a national level, and that little ch title is next to 5 generations of dogs (and I mean everyone of them) , including parents, then the odds are I am buying from one heck of a lineage.
> 
> Every breeder can have a bad dog. Funny thing is a westlaw search didn't show a single lawsuit filed against Dave. I don't care what anyone says, produce enough products and someone will get pissed and sue. In his case, he seems to have all happy customers.


The following link is from the DFW Golden Club site and is a wonderful step by step in what to look for in a pup and a breeder. http://www.dfwmgrc.org/Public-Info.htm With that knowledge in hand, you can start your search. This site offers listings of breeders by location. http://www.goldenbreedersresource.org/ Also, if there are any shows in your area, they are wonderful learning experiences and you may meet many knowledgeable breeders, handlers that can help you too. AND, last but not least, at the top of the forum page is a "puppy finders fact checker" . Many of us ( like me) have learned a ton on here about breeder/ puppy selection. As much as I LOVE my girls, and we found them thru a vet recommendation, I would follow the guidelines given above. We have been most fortunate that they have been extremely healthy, but we could just as easily been in the boat of another of our dear forum BYB dogs who at age 1 has already had 2 hip surgeries and blinding cataracts removed in both eyes.


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## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> You know the funny thing, in the brief time that I have been reading the website, I keep seeing people ask for breeders. The standard response is call the GRCA. How about those of you whom proclaim the omnipresent knowledge of who are good breeders share that information with those of us the come to the Delphi?
> 
> Some of us actually fly places to pick up animals and the physical location of the breeder is quite meaningless. So there is a fork in the road, either we as a community become more vocal on whom we recommend or we stay silent.
> 
> And to the earlier point of do I know what it takes to make a dog a champion, my response is nope and I don't care. When I see all of the grandparents competing at a national level, and that little ch title is next to 5 generations of dogs (and I mean everyone of them) , including parents, then the odds are I am buying from one heck of a lineage.
> 
> Every breeder can have a bad dog. Funny thing is a westlaw search didn't show a single lawsuit filed against Dave. I don't care what anyone says, produce enough products and someone will get pissed and sue. In his case, he seems to have all happy customers.


I am missing your point, here. When people come to this forum looking for a breeder, they generally qualify that request with the area they live or are willing to travel to. Often, the GRCA puppy referral _is _suggested. Equally as often, people refer to breeders that they know and have had a good experience with. MORE often, people come here and ask about a _specific_ breeder. The replies are made accordingly. So, whether a buyer flies, drives, or hitchhikes has little to do with the discussion.


The question about championships was prompted quite some time ago (you may have missed it, because you didn't respond) by a post you made which was worded such that it would appear that your own dogs are champions. And, when you today said the grandparents were "regional champions" because they got a 1st or 2nd in competition, it prompted more discussion. Any BYB or even puppy mill dog will have champions in the pedigree if you look far enough back, even every single one for a few generations... It is only if the parents and grandparents are champions of record that it is meaningful. What is your definition of "competing at a National level"?

I'm glad that there are no lawsuits to be found, but that alone does not mean that a breeder has 100% satisfaction. There is no way to determine how many people took puppies or dgs back, and either got another, or, if within the time allowed, a refund. And there are plenty of people who simply deal with, OR, dump, dogs that they have problems with.

As stated, he may be the nicest guy ever, but based on my standards for breeding, I could not in good conscience refer anyone to him.


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## buckeyegoldenmom

bigds01 said:


> No offense, but we pick up our dog on Friday from Dave and have thought what a great experience we have had. We have championship dogs currently, are huge financial donors to animal causes and are quite pleased with Dave and his facility.
> 
> When we picked out our pup two weeks ago, we could easily tell which dogs were alpha and which were not. Also the dogs are constantly handled. I see absolutely nothing wrong with someone actually running a professional breeding establishment vs. backyard breeder.
> 
> I did indepth research into Dave, guess how many actual complaints are posted on the web? 0. Unless you can say that he has done something wrong or produces bad dogs, keep it to yourself.
> 
> Don't mean to be vocal, but he produces a good product with a proven track record.
> 
> If I read the earlier post, you selected a bad dog this past SATURDAY, were unhappy about it, Dave replaced it, you now have a dog 2 days later that is all ready house broken and you are still complaining?


I see you are getting a puppy soon from Gap View Goldens. I hope all goes well and you have the puppy of your dreams. However this is an open forum and people are voicing their opinions on what they see, like, and don't like about the breeders mentioned in posts.

Personally I would not buy from a breeder who lets puppies go at 6 weeks, who doesn't do all clearances on all breeding stock (i.e. the elbows too), who didn't notice the neurological problems of Jake1, who sells to anyone on a full registration, and I would also want someone who shows goldens (JMO). I looked at the pedigrees of several of Gap View's goldens...very few have any Championships even 3 generations back.


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## pburchins

It is a shame that Gap View Kennels is getting knocked around on this forum because of the view of one person. This view went from missing a toe to neurological problems. Of course, the puppy was never seen by a vet so I don't know how it was diagnosed with neurological problems. The puppy was with the woman less than 24 hours and on a weekend. 

I don't know Gap View Kennels. I have never heard of them until this thread. I just having a problem slandering a person (s) and their work based upon one person's comments and opinions of other breeders who do it differently.


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## Pointgold

pburchins said:


> It is a shame that Gap View Kennels is getting knocked around on this forum because of the view of one person. This view went from missing a toe to neurological problems. Of course, the puppy was never seen by a vet so I don't know how it was diagnosed with neurological problems. The puppy was with the woman less than 24 hours and on a weekend.
> 
> I don't know Gap View Kennels. I have never heard of them until this thread. I just having a problem slandering a person (s) and their work based upon one person's comments and opinions of other breeders who do it differently.


 
Respectfully, this is not the case at all. My issue is with the sheer numbers, the spotty clearances, the contract, etc. as outlined in a previous post. The individual circumstance of the puppy in question _underlines _my concerns. I believe that this kennel was discussed with many of the same concerns brought up long before the puppy with the missing toe was produced. If a breeder is going to advertise publically, with a website mking specific claims, as well as on the myriad of Puppy4Sale type sites, they open themselves to discussion. No one has "slandered" anyone here. Facts have been discussed, and opinions expressed.


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## Finn's Fan

This breeder's contract states that before a puppy goes home, it has been given its first shots and evaluated by a veterinarian. Does anyone think that a decent vet would miss neurological problems or missing body parts? Sorry, but the red flags are practically flying themselves in this instance. In Colorado, it is ILLEGAL to sell a puppy under eight weeks old. No reputable breeder I know lets puppies go at six weeks.


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## sammydog

I have also seen lots of people come onto this webpage looking for information on breeders. 

I think it is great that there are so many users here who have the knowledge and ability to look at the dogs pedigree and clearances and offer their thoughts. Lots of the information given is simply stating facts. Yes/No the dogs have all/some of their GRCA recommended clearances.

You heard blanket statements such as "all their clearances" and "champion lines". Both of these are easy to look up online, some people just don't know how to do it. One thing I am great at doing is digging up these facts, so I always try to help if I can.

I am also very curious bigds01... Now, my experience is only with Golden Retrievers... So, how do you know that your smooth collie has 5 generations of champions behind it, yet not know who the breeder is?


----------



## bigds01

sammydog said:


> I have also seen lots of people come onto this webpage looking for information on breeders.
> 
> I think it is great that there are so many users here who have the knowledge and ability to look at the dogs pedigree and clearances and offer their thoughts. Lots of the information given is simply stating facts. Yes/No the dogs have all/some of their GRCA recommended clearances.
> 
> You heard blanket statements such as "all their clearances" and "champion lines". Both of these are easy to look up online, some people just don't know how to do it. One thing I am great at doing is digging up these facts, so I always try to help if I can.
> 
> I am also very curious bigds01... Now, my experience is only with Golden Retrievers... So, how do you know that your smooth collie has 5 generations of champions behind it, yet not know who the breeder is?



Actually on the collie it is killing me that I can't remember. We got her back in November of 2001 and moved 4 times since then. We tried everything to remember whom it was.. The breeder produced documentation that we verified with their numerous westminster showings at that time. I just for the life of me can't remember their name. All I remember is that they were down by blacksburg.


----------



## bigds01

Pointgold said:


> I am missing your point, here. When people come to this forum looking for a breeder, they generally qualify that request with the area they live or are willing to travel to. Often, the GRCA puppy referral _is _suggested. Equally as often, people refer to breeders that they know and have had a good experience with. MORE often, people come here and ask about a _specific_ breeder. The replies are made accordingly. So, whether a buyer flies, drives, or hitchhikes has little to do with the discussion.
> 
> 
> The question about championships was prompted quite some time ago (you may have missed it, because you didn't respond) by a post you made which was worded such that it would appear that your own dogs are champions. And, when you today said the grandparents were "regional champions" because they got a 1st or 2nd in competition, it prompted more discussion. Any BYB or even puppy mill dog will have champions in the pedigree if you look far enough back, even every single one for a few generations... It is only if the parents and grandparents are champions of record that it is meaningful. What is your definition of "competing at a National level"?
> 
> I'm glad that there are no lawsuits to be found, but that alone does not mean that a breeder has 100% satisfaction. There is no way to determine how many people took puppies or dgs back, and either got another, or, if within the time allowed, a refund. And there are plenty of people who simply deal with, OR, dump, dogs that they have problems with.
> 
> As stated, he may be the nicest guy ever, but based on my standards for breeding, I could not in good conscience refer anyone to him.


Competing at a national level is being shown at westminster or Eukanuba. I will say the arrogance of your posts is astonishing. You have functionally libelled someone that you don't know based upon your reading of a website. Frankly you should be ashamed.

BTW---- The way I even found Gap View was from the postings on this website from the person who had a great dog in Comet.


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## sammydog

bigds01 said:


> Actually on the collie it is killing me that I can't remember. We got her back in November of 2001 and moved 4 times since then. We tried everything to remember whom it was.. The breeder produced documentation that we verified with their numerous westminster showings at that time. I just for the life of me can't remember their name. All I remember is that they were down by blacksburg.


Is she registered with AKC? The breeder is listed on the paperwork (PG already said this). If it was lost while moving I know you can get the info online from AKC for pretty cheap.


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## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> Competing at a national level is being shown at westminster or Eukanuba. I will say the arrogance of your posts is astonishing. You have functionally slandered someone that you don't know based upon your reading of a website. Frankly you should be ashamed.
> 
> BTW---- The way I even found Gap View was from the postings on this website from the person who had a great dog in Comet.


 
I am asking valid questions. We both have Smooth Collies - obviously I have an interest. I compete, and have shown several times at Westminster (with some success). I've not heard that being called "competing at a National level". Perhaps it is a regional expression, I don't know. 
I have in no way slandered anyone. I am entitled to my opinion, which I have formed about the kennel in question based on what the kennel owner himself has posted on his own website, and simple research of clearance databases. Why else would a breeder put up a website but to advertise the puppies produced, and for people to decide based on the information posted on that site whether to purchase a puppy from them or not, which is, forming an opinion. I subscribe to the GRCA Code of Ethics, and as such, do not agree with the gentleman's breeding practices. That does not equate to slander (or, in the case of the written word, libel).


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## LizShort

bigds01 said:


> Competing at a national level is being shown at westminster or Eukanuba. I will say the arrogance of your posts is astonishing. You have functionally slandered someone that you don't know based upon your reading of a website. Frankly you should be ashamed.
> 
> BTW---- The way I even found Gap View was from the postings on this website from the person who had a great dog in Comet.


Actually bigds01, Someone looked up the information for me about the dogs who produced Jake1.0 They explained how to find the information and what to look for. I don't remember if it was PG or not and I'm not going back through 10 pages of posts to find it  Anyway... If I had know something about clearances (it has been more than 25 years since showing and breeding goldens for me and the clearances just were not that common and we always bought from BYB) I would have had second thoughts on using Gap View. 

There has been no slander here as everything is on public record ie health checks and clearances. Dave gets them done once. That's all. I had no idea it needed to be done more than that. I guess, when I think about it, hips being moving parts can deteriorate over time and good hips at 2 might be horrid hips at 5. 

My point is... There are a number of red flags that show up for people who have raised and bred champions. These champions have been shown in specialty shows and have, most likely, traveled over the entire country. I deeply respect PG's and other's opinions on this forum and have been grateful for their input... well... most of them....

The opinions here have been expressed using specific data from the web page AND from the AKC and OFA web pages. These web pages have the numbers. I like Dave. He's a very nice guy. I love Jake2.0 to bits!!! He's beautiful and has a fantasticly funny personality. He does not do the work to get the championships himself. He buys the dogs who have them and then breeds. It works for him and, obviously, has worked very well. 

He produces some wonderful pets. How far Jake2.0 will go in the show ring... I don't know. He is a wonderful pet.


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## bigds01

LizShort said:


> Actually bigds01, Someone looked up the information for me about the dogs who produced Jake1.0 They explained how to find the information and what to look for. I don't remember if it was PG or not and I'm not going back through 10 pages of posts to find it  Anyway... If I had know something about clearances (it has been more than 25 years since showing and breeding goldens for me and the clearances just were not that common and we always bought from BYB) I would have had second thoughts on using Gap View.
> 
> There has been no slander here as everything is on public record ie health checks and clearances. Dave gets them done once. That's all. I had no idea it needed to be done more than that. I guess, when I think about it, hips being moving parts can deteriorate over time and good hips at 2 might be horrid hips at 5.
> 
> My point is... There are a number of red flags that show up for people who have raised and bred champions. These champions have been shown in specialty shows and have, most likely, traveled over the entire country. I deeply respect PG's and other's opinions on this forum and have been grateful for their input... well... most of them....
> 
> The opinions here have been expressed using specific data from the web page AND from the AKC and OFA web pages. These web pages have the numbers. I like Dave. He's a very nice guy. I love Jake2.0 to bits!!! He's beautiful and has a fantasticly funny personality. He does not do the work to get the championships himself. He buys the dogs who have them and then breeds. It works for him and, obviously, has worked very well.
> 
> He produces some wonderful pets. How far Jake2.0 will go in the show ring... I don't know. He is a wonderful pet.


Just to offer edification, I am not expecting a championship level dog. Just a healthy one.


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## ragtym

bigds01 said:


> Just to offer edification, I am not expecting a championship level dog. Just a healthy one.


People here have been trying to tell you how to go about getting one and why you are taking a chance by getting a pup from this place.

Your pups mother has no elbow clearance and her last eye clearance was done 2.5 years ago. Of the 3 sires listed as sires of the current litters, 1 doesn't have a hip clearance, none of them have elbow clearances, and 2 of them haven't had a CERF check since 2006. All of their dogs heart clearances were done by practitioners (ie, their normal vet) instead of by a vet trained to detect specific heart defects.

If you truly want a healthy dog then all of these things should be of concern to you.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

bigds01 said:


> Just to offer edification, I am not expecting a championship level dog. Just a healthy one.


Please read the site I posted before.... it will walk you step by step on maximizing just that chance. The breeders that follow the GRCA code of ethics and do all clearances are your best shot at realizing that healthy pup. http://www.dfwmgrc.org/Public-Info.htm


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## bigds01

ragtym said:


> People here have been trying to tell you how to go about getting one and why you are taking a chance by getting a pup from this place.
> 
> Your pups mother has no elbow clearance and her last eye clearance was done 2.5 years ago. Of the 3 sires listed as sires of the current litters, 1 doesn't have a hip clearance, none of them have elbow clearances, and 2 of them haven't had a CERF check since 2006. All of their dogs heart clearances were done by practitioners (ie, their normal vet) instead of by a vet trained to detect specific heart defects.
> 
> If you truly want a healthy dog then all of these things should be of concern to you.


I have to say that I do appreciate the concern. Then I re-read this sub forum and just found dozens of people saying please tell me where to get a pup. I couldn't find where people actually gave a name of a breeder. Provide names of breeders that are considered tops rather then keep telling people to read a checklist.

You all feel comfortable telling someone when something is wrong, but offering help is giving a name of a breeder, not being pedantic.


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## Tahnee GR

If we know the geographic area a person is willing to consider, there have been dozens of responses from the forum in the past with the names of responsible breeders.

I am more than willing to share names of the breeders I know of, if you want to share your geographic area, and I know that others would as well. Each of us is more familar with certain areas of course, but we pretty well cover the US and England, for sure


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## kgiff

bigds01 said:


> I have to say that I do appreciate the concern. Then I re-read this sub forum and just found dozens of people saying please tell me where to get a pup. I couldn't find where people actually gave a name of a breeder. Provide names of breeders that are considered tops rather then keep telling people to read a checklist.
> 
> You all feel comfortable telling someone when something is wrong, but offering help is giving a name of a breeder, not being pedantic.


The problem is, the same breeder is not right for everyone. It is in some ways easier to see the red flags than to find a good breeder. A breeder is someone that ideally you'll have contact with throughout the life of the dog. I've talked to a lot of breeders and a lot I didn't click with. There is also a bit of needing to go with your gut. Our first golden (was actually my husbands) but when we went to pick him up, my gut told me to run. Turns out out of the litter of 6, one was still-born, one died shortly after birth, ours was diagnosed with cancer at 10 weeks old, another had an immune deficiency disorder, and another had seizures.

What I always recommend to people is going to local shows or to events being held by the local breed club. Meet some dogs, owners and breeders and find out who bred the dogs you like.


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## ragtym

bigds01 said:


> You all feel comfortable telling someone when something is wrong, but offering help is giving a name of a breeder, not being pedantic.


I give up - you either don't understand or don't care that people are trying to help you here. You say I'm being pedantic because I pointed out to you that YOUR future pup's mother doesn't have all of her clearances. The facts that I stated about Gap View's CERF and elbow results are not minute details - the diseases that they rule out can be devastating to a new owner. Cataracts, Glaucoma, elbow dysplasia, Osteochondrosis Dessicans (OCD), etc - all of these are major concerns and can cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars to fix. 

You say no one has given out breeders names - people here have given breeders' names, the names of puppy referrals, and/or the names of local GR clubs in the area where the person is interested in looking. They point to the puppy checklist because it helps steer people clear of questionable breeders and hopefully, from potential heartache.

I wish I understood why you continue to discount the combined knowledge of this board when some of these people have had and bred Goldens for FAR longer than your breeder has.


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## Bender

Part of the point of sending people to the GRCA, or giving them a checklist, is so they are EDUCATED as to what they should be looking for - good and bad. It's fine and dandy to say 'call Mary, she's a great breeder' but when Mary doesn't have anything upcoming, then what does that person do? Almost always they end up going to whoever, UNLESS they have the information as to what they should be looking for. And like some people have said, not all breeders/kennel names remain consistant with quality/health. And not all breeders are the right fit for the buyer, some breeders for example will pick the puppy for the person and not everyone wants that. 

Plus, if the person has the information on what to look for in a golden, they can share that info with others, including people looking for other breeds. 

Lana


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## Ljilly28

I really respect the collective wisdom of the experienced breeders on the forum. I have run several litters by individuals here in my slow search for a show puppy who can also do obedience and hike in the woods like a crazydawg, and abided by their information bc I value it. They simply know much more than I do, things that cannot be found in a database. There would be no point in me asking about health issues and show potential, and then ignoring the feedback.

In one case a beautiful litter I was very excited about had three dogs a little ways back in the lines die before age 6! I would not have known that without help. Proceeding very slowly and listening hard to people who know a lifetime's worth of golden history bc they lived it is actually a privilege. Receiving advice from someone who has studied stud dogs' health issues in depth before choosing one for a litter precious to them? Amazing opportunity. Coming to this forum and having access to some very accomplished and wise golden people is a valuable resource. 

I just received an email from a forum member that started out with "please don't say I told you so". She asked for feedback on a specific breeder, received cautions about clearances and ad ploys for "rare white goldens", but had her heart set anyway. Now, she has a dog with multiple problems - she needs help of many kinds. 

What I don't understand is when people ask the opinion of the forum about a particular web site/breeder, receive predictable feedback based on the same,consistently applied criteria always used, and then ignore the advice and launch into a defense of said breeder. If your mind is made up, why ask? If you're getting advice from someone who has bred a line of sound, long-lived dogs, showed at Westminster and judges goldens for AKC shows or just finished a UDX, do you really know better than him/her about goldens? Maybe you do, but I don't even after a lifetime of owning great ones. I just prize a chance to have that input into my decisions, and the last thing I want to do is waste their time and try their patience by asking for advice I do not follow.


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## tippykayak

pburchins said:


> It is a shame that Gap View Kennels is getting knocked around on this forum because of the view of one person. This view went from missing a toe to neurological problems. Of course, the puppy was never seen by a vet so I don't know how it was diagnosed with neurological problems. The puppy was with the woman less than 24 hours and on a weekend.
> 
> I don't know Gap View Kennels. I have never heard of them until this thread. I just having a problem slandering a person (s) and their work based upon one person's comments and opinions of other breeders who do it differently.


I think Liz reported her experience, and that's her right, but the other comments that have been made here that express concerns with Gap View have to do with their stated practices, practices which do not measure up to the GRCA's code of ethics. This has not been denied by anybody, and it's a pretty fair comment for a breeder/trainer/shower like PG to say, based on the info she has, that she couldn't recommend a kennel based on its stated practices.

Is anybody arguing that puppies are always OK to go at 6 weeks? That there's any excuse not to be doing elbows at this point? That you can have half a dozen litters on the ground at a time and do a great job socializing them? These and others are legitimate concerns that would steer me away from a kennel, and it's only fair to share information about the qualities of a good breeder. When somebody asks "is this a good kennel?" the first thing we'd tell that person to do is go through the breeder checklist and see what measures up and what doesn't.

That's what's happening here, except that there's also a personal story about somebody who had a negative experience consistent with the concerns raised by the breeder's own website.


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## Ljilly28

Here are a few threads in which recommendations for breeders are made. There are about 100, so I'll just pick two. 
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=16952&highlight=birnam+wood&page=3

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=51957&highlight=jean+barby


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## tippykayak

bigds01 said:


> Competing at a national level is being shown at westminster or Eukanuba. I will say the arrogance of your posts is astonishing. You have functionally libelled someone that you don't know based upon your reading of a website. Frankly you should be ashamed.
> 
> BTW---- The way I even found Gap View was from the postings on this website from the person who had a great dog in Comet.


I like that you went back and changed "slandered" to "libelled." It's "libeled," by the way, if you want to edit it again.

Unless somebody reported information they knew to be false, nobody's been libeled. Saying "I can't recommend this breeder because he doesn't appear to do elbow clearances" is actually a very fair, balanced critique. The breeder or his friends may not like that the kennel is getting criticized out on the open internet, but the fact is that the truth is fair game, whether it's good for business or not.

If the website is incorrect, then this is all an unfortunate misunderstanding, but in that case, the breeder has libeled himself. You'd have a hell of a time proving it in court, though, since actually winning a libel case involves proving the libeler knew the information to be false at the time of the writing. You'd also have a hell of a time suing yourself. 

Gap View may produce a majority of healthy, beautiful, wonderful dogs, but the fact of the matter is that their statements on their website aren't consistent with the code of ethics followed by excellent breeders of Golden Retrievers. Why is that so hard to grasp?


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## tippykayak

bigds01 said:


> I have to say that I do appreciate the concern. Then I re-read this sub forum and just found dozens of people saying please tell me where to get a pup. I couldn't find where people actually gave a name of a breeder. Provide names of breeders that are considered tops rather then keep telling people to read a checklist.
> 
> You all feel comfortable telling someone when something is wrong, but offering help is giving a name of a breeder, not being pedantic.


I've recommended three breeders on the forum before: Sunfire, Windrush, and Sand Dancer, and I will happily do so again. I've also been happy to offer an honest appraisal of their practices and the type of dogs they produce.

The problem is that the breeders truly worth recommending often produce very few dogs, and I've had some trepidation putting their names out on the internet simply because they only produce 0-15 puppies a year (it varies), and all three tend to have a waiting list before the dogs are even bred. So why get people's hopes up when it's unlikely the breeder will have a puppy for them?

It's equally important, when people come on and ask for advice, to point out to them that a particular breeder doesn't seem to be maximizing their chances at owning a healthy, well-adjusted dog. If somebody came on and asked if their local pet store was a good place to get a puppy, would you be angry if I told them no?


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## bigds01

Since this will be my last post on this website, I want to say how much I appreciate the unbelievable arrogance shown by so many people. In all of the time that you have explained to me that I am functionally a dolt, not one of you has come forward and gone, hey you know go look at this breeder instead.

Also, I am sick and tired of zealots of any type repeating inane facts. Folks it is a dog, not a child. If you have ever referred to your pet as your furry child, you are in fact insane. I came here trying to find out about a breeder for a dog, to buy a product. Guess what people did before all of the latest and greatest certifications? They bought dogs and they were great. So I will go buy a dog from Dave and plan on having no problems. If I do, so be it, guess what, he will refund my money. Why? Because he is a businessman and cares about his product. 

How about we post the other thread where somebody said lets start a list of good breeders, and you zealots started in with the not every breeder is for everyone. Then you have the gaul to complain when people actually find one.


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## tippykayak

bigds01 said:


> Then you have the gaul to complain when people actually find one.


It's "gall." The Gauls were the people who lived in western Europe during the time of the Roman Empire.

In all seriousness, I don't call my dogs furchildren or anything of the sort. I don't look down on those who do, but I don't think of them that way.

Even so, a dog is not just a product. They're living, breathing creatures who deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. If a dog whose parents weren't cleared for elbows develops crippling dysplasia after six months with you, what will you do? Will you return him to Gap View? Their contract specifically states that they don't guarantee against genetic conditions. All you have is your impression that Dave is a good guy and will probably take the dog back.

Maybe you wouldn't feel any compunction about a trade in, but after spending six months with a dog, I'm pretty bonded with him. It would feel pretty callous to just trade him in for a newer model. I would hope the breeder would refund the purchase price to put towards surgery costs and give us whatever support he could as we work through the challenges of elbow surgery.

And what happens to the dog if Dave does just take him back? Will he receive surgery or will he simply be euthanized?

It simply isn't responsible to breed dogs who don't have the best possible shot at health and happiness. You can't just breed dogs willy nilly and throw out the ones that don't turn out sound.


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## Solas Goldens

At a minimum I would make sure that the parents had clearances on there hips.


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## Solas Goldens

Sorry I hit the send button before I was done. Also make sure they are cleared of eyes and heart as well.It is NOT to much to expect a breeder to have all clearances done on their dogs.Even if they tell you they are sure it is okay, they have never had a problem.
I was in this situation a long time ago, before I educated myself, and I ended up with a dog with hip dyspalsia. I would never put anyone in this position.


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## tippykayak

For several years now, elbows are also part of the clearance package with Goldens. If there are missing elbow clearances 10, 15 years back in a pedigree, it's a slightly different story, but in dogs who are being bred today, it's an absolute necessity.


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## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> Since this will be my last post on this website, I want to say how much I appreciate the unbelievable arrogance shown by so many people. In all of the time that you have explained to me that I am functionally a dolt, not one of you has come forward and gone, hey you know go look at this breeder instead.
> 
> Also, I am sick and tired of zealots of any type repeating inane facts. Folks it is a dog, not a child. If you have ever referred to your pet as your furry child, you are in fact insane. I came here trying to find out about a breeder for a dog, to buy a product. Guess what people did before all of the latest and greatest certifications? They bought dogs and they were great. So I will go buy a dog from Dave and plan on having no problems. If I do, so be it, guess what, he will refund my money. Why? Because he is a businessman and cares about his product.
> 
> How about we post the other thread where somebody said lets start a list of good breeders, and you zealots started in with the not every breeder is for everyone. Then you have the gaul to complain when people actually find one.


 
Well, hey, you know? You have made it _very _clear that you think Gap View is the best of the best, and are thrilled to be getting a dog from him, so why would anyone tell you "go look at breeder XXX instead" ? The point being made by so many will hopefully help new people looking for a puppy to know what to ask for in regards to clearances and other breeding practices. I don't see where anyone has called you a "dolt". It is naive, however, to think that before all the "latest and greatest certifications" were required that all the dogs were "great". They weren't. Not looking for problems doesn't mean that they aren't there. It is just that head in the sand attitude that has in fact _caused _there to be so many health issues - issues that responsible, caring breeders are working so very hard to eliminate.

I am very much against calling my dogs "furkids", etc, and have made it clear in several threads as to why - for me it is about not providing AR activists more ammunition - but, that said, I would NEVER say that anyone who does is "insane", and your doing so is not only arrogant, it is rude and cruel. 
As a breeder, and someone who is passionate about this breed - call me "zealot" if you will, if it means that I am doing the very best that I can for the DOGS (or, as you call them the "product") - I will not refer anyone to another breeder who does not do all clearances, at minimum, and who sends pups home at 6 weeks. Conversely, I will not send a referral to another breeder who is a person that I myself would not sell a puppy to. 

I hope that your experience with Dave and Gap View is everything that you plan it will be, for your sake, and _especially _for that of the puppy.


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## PC Mom

*Hate to reopen this can of worms but...*

I know that this forum is 4 months old, but I feel like I need to reply in order to tell a more complete story on Gap View. I just joined this forum (looking for a golden retriever template for my pumpkin of all things) but I am no novice Golden owner. My husband and I own 2 Gap View dogs. I also work with a local golden rescue and have fostered dozens of dogs. I have seen dogs with serious health issues and temperament issues from the best of breeders. I have seen terrible dogs come from deplorable conditions. I have seen OCD, numerous issues with abuse and neglect, and much worse, at the hands of pet owners and breeders. 

My gap view dogs are 8 and 7. My 7 year old has been the model of health, literally! His worst issues are ear infections and being overweight. However, our 8 year old has had numerous health issues. He has dealt with allergies since a young age and now is living with/surviving osteosarcoma (bone cancer). 

Knowing what we now know, would we go back to Gap View? Yes. Despite that both of our dog's parents and grandparents were certified for hips, hearts and eyes, Dave realized that our oldest's line was not a good one and stopped breeding mom (dad's line was a 'proven one' that has not seen many issues-we've kept up with many of dad's dogs). Dave realized that her line wasn't good, produced dogs that were out of standard, and so he did the right thing in that he stopped breeding her. We did not pursue any guarantee with him because we felt it wouldn't do much good, he'd already stopped breeding her and was watching dad much more carefully, and it wasn't the about money. We kept him updated with our dog's health issues so he'd know and could see whatever 'trends' were developing with other dogs in their lines. He mentioned several times how sorry he was about the issues that we were having and we made it clear that we didn't hold him responsible. I feel it was a horrible case of bad luck! I do feel like it was a case of lack of knowledge-we were young, first time dog owners who didn't know what to look for in a dog's history and honestly didn't listen to the breeder like we should have. We didn't make the same mistake with our second. We chose a known line and have regretted nothing since.

A word on Dave and the farm. It is a working farm that makes money in many ways. They definitely make money on dogs. More than that, they make money selling and finishing cattle, and have numerous prized birds and other fowl (whether they do that for money or love of the animals, I don't know.) Dave has been doing this for many years, there was a time in the mid-nineties when he wasn't the main contact, probably about the time that Comet's family got him. Dave also has several partners that have helped him at various times. He also employs several knowledgeable animal people, including Anne and a groomer who works with all the dogs every day, checking them all over and loving on them, and grooms them in-depth at least weekly. 

As I said, I've had a lot of experience evaluating dogs for temperament and basic health issues. I have always been impressed with Dave's dogs regarding how well socialized they are. They may be initially interested in you (barking and such) but once you visit them or pull one out, they settle right down and show NO issues of abuse or neglect. I'm merely saying this because people here have implied that you cannot possibly take care of that many dogs and meet all their needs. I have visited the farm at all odd times without appointments (we are only 30 minutes away and I taught at a local school) and have never seen one dog who I was concerned about in any way. The puppies are socialized by Dave and his team, as well as other puppy owners and owners to be, but not like one would be in a home environment. This weekend, we spent over 7 hours there trying to decide what set of dogs we wanted to get a pup from, and had my 2 young boys with us (2 and 4 years old). The 6 week old puppies seemed to have no problem with them, nor any problem with grass. None of the dogs were skittish or aggressive around our kids.

Someone earlier said that you have to go there and see them, and it's true. It's hard to describe the high level of care that these dogs actually receive! 

A note on the certifications, searching ofa, we did notice some parents without certifications, but when we went to the farm today, we looked in the files (without Dave around) and noticed several had certs, some even excellent in hips, that weren't on the ofa site. Why? I don't know. Bad paper trails? Perhaps. Oh, and they are about 2 hours SW of DC. The nearest cardiologist is about an hour and 45 minutes away. Not saying that it's not worth it, but that's partly why his heart certs are only from the local vet, not from a cardiologist. 

I am not related to Gap View at all, except having gotten 2 dogs from them. I am also open to other breeders (feel free to pm me if you have any suggestions) as well as a rescue dog. As it is, we are on a list (no deposit) for some puppies that will be born late Nov. Is Dave perfect? No! Is he a good breeder? I'd say mostly yes. Just my 2 cents!  Golden love to all!


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## Pointgold

OFA certs that weren't on the OFA database? I doubt it. I'd be very suspicious of the validity of what you say you found (without Dave around...)


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## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> OFA certs that weren't on the OFA database? I doubt it. I'd be very suspicious of the validity of what you say you found (without Dave around...)


I'm also suspicious when somebody joins the forum just to re-open an old thread and provide a positive testimonial about a breeder who didn't come out so well in the thread.


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## AmbikaGR

Welcome to the forum! :wavey:
Happy to hear you have faith in Gap View and Dave!



PC Mom said:


> A note on the certifications, searching ofa, we did notice some parents without certifications, but when we went to the farm today, we looked in the files (without Dave around) and noticed several had certs, some even excellent in hips, that weren't on the ofa site. Why? I don't know. Bad paper trails? Perhaps.


This is rather dubious in my opinion. You are stating you went thru this kennel's files without their permission or knowledge? I believe law enforcement has a term for this.
I also find it dubious and doubtful that these clearances would be missing from th OFA database.



PC Mom said:


> Oh, and they are about 2 hours SW of DC. The nearest cardiologist is about an hour and 45 minutes away. Not saying that it's not worth it, but that's partly why his heart certs are only from the local vet, not from a cardiologist.


Well of course that is a good reason not to have the dogs checked by a certified specialist. After all it is only the heart and what is the worst that can happen?
Oh yea, they could just drop dead. Definitely just cause to not drive an hour and forty-five minutes to have them checked. I can see where they would feel it is not worth it.


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## Tahnee GR

I have to agree with the others-very doubtful that the certifications would be done, sent to OFA, and not appear on the website.

And as far as the heart certifications-I have to drive 3 hours one way to get heart certs done. I frequently find myself on the road for heart certs every 12-18 months. It is the right thing to do, especially because my aim is not just to get the piece of paper that is the clearance, but to make sure that phenotypically, at least, my dogs' hearts are clear.

As a matter of fact, I have to drive 3 hours for any of the required clearances-hips/elbows, eyes, as well as heart. No big deal-you just do it.


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## PC Mom

I admit, it does look suspicious that I just joined and stirred up this thread. I really debated sending the post, and in retrospect probably shouldn't have, but I wanted to let someone who was researching Gap View to get my experience with it, which has been largely good. I do have an 8 year old with bone cancer who has had a lot of health issues that I got from him, but I just don't think it's all his fault. 

Hank, We were in the office, debating what dog pair to get a puppy from (if we get one at all), and Dave left us alone to discuss it. He showed us where the files were and said we were welcome to look at whomever. I wasn't doing anything that "law enforcement" would be interested in, and I resent the implication. This should be about Gap View, not me. 

To clarify, the hip information we saw was a preliminary report. Could that explain why it wasn't in the database? (I am legitimately asking the question. I don't know. I came here seeking information about Gap View and to read other's experiences.)

ETA: Linda and Hank, you are right about the cardiologist and it being worth the drive. For me it would be. I regularly drive 3-4 hours just to help transport a dog that I have no vested interest in. You are bringing up a good point and raising more red flags for me. Again, I came here seeing information on Gap View, felt like I had to say something, probably shouldn't have (it was the Halloween candy talking!), and I do appreciate your comments. Giving me more to think about. 

If you do know of any breeders located in VA whom you recommend, could you let me know? I am looking to get a pup in the next 6 months. My oldest has been living with osteosarcoma for almost 4 months now and based on our course of treatment, average length of life is 4-6 months so we are on borrowed time. He's doing great and has no lung metastisis, but still... PM me if you want more details there.


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## AmbikaGR

PC Mom said:


> To clarify, the hip information we saw was a preliminary report. Could that explain why it wasn't in the database? (I am legitimately asking the question. I don't know. I came here seeking information about Gap View and to read other's experiences.)


 
Absolutely. OFA does not post preliminaries because they are not a clearance. The dog must be of a certain age depending on the clearance for it to be a final. For hips and elbows that would be two years of age.


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## AmbikaGR

AmbikaGR said:


> This is rather dubious in my opinion. You are stating you went thru this kennel's files without their permission or knowledge? I believe law enforcement has a term for this.





PC Mom said:


> Hank, We were in the office, debating what dog pair to get a puppy from (if we get one at all), and Dave left us alone to discuss it. He showed us where the files were and said we were welcome to look at whomever. I wasn't doing anything that "law enforcement" would be interested in, and I resent the implication. This should be about Gap View, not me.


I guess if you had worded it this way I would not have asked the question. And as you see above it was a question and not an implication. But I will offer an apology if that is not how it came accross.


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## tippykayak

PC Mom said:


> To clarify, the hip information we saw was a preliminary report. Could that explain why it wasn't in the database? (I am legitimately asking the question. I don't know. I came here seeking information about Gap View and to read other's experiences.)


Hip prelims frequently end up in the database anyway, but more importantly, if the breeder did hip prelims but never did (or never registered) regular certification, that's a huge red flag. You can only get OFA certification after the dog is 2. Many breeders will do prelims in order to get an early idea about which puppies might turn out to be great breeding stock. They won't actually breed, though, without getting the "real" OFA cert after the dog's second birthday.

And didn't this kennel sell a puppy who was missing a toe to somebody on the forum? I seem to recall that. It really shakes up the whole "their staff handles all the dogs a lot" argument.


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## tippykayak

AmbikaGR said:


> Absolutely. OFA does not post preliminaries because they are not a clearance. The dog must be od a certain age depending on the clearance for it to be a final. For hips and elbows that would be two years of age.


I feel like I've seen prelims in the database, marked clearly as prelims. Am I misremembering?


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## Jax's Mom

speaking of suspicious...what about the NEW thread by a NEW member stating not to buy from this breeder.


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## sammydog

tippykayak said:


> I feel like I've seen prelims in the database, marked clearly as prelims. Am I misremembering?


Prelims will show up, as you describe, but you have to check a box on the paperwork... I only know because I missed this when I did Mira's, therefore even though hers were done, they will not show up... But in the end it does not really matter because you still need to get the official clearances once they turn 2. 

Also prelims are NOT clearances...

Not having a cardiologist look at the hearts because they are 1 hr 45 min away is a huge red flag. That is not that far.


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## AmbikaGR

PC Mom said:


> If you do know of any breeders located in VA whom you recommend, could you let me know? I am looking to get a pup in the next 6 months. My oldest has been living with osteosarcoma for almost 4 months now and based on our course of treatment, average length of life is 4-6 months so we are on borrowed time. He's doing great and has no lung metastisis, but still... PM me if you want more details there.


 
Honestly you are very fortunately to live in area with a wealth of good responsible breeders. I am posting links to several of that areas Golden Retriver club's puppy/breeder referral pages. If you have specific questions on any brreder feel free to ask.

Chesapeake GRC - http://www.chesapeakegrc.org/puppy_refer.html

Gunpowder River GRC - http://www.grgrcm.org/ (look under "General Info"

Potomac Vallry GRC - http://www.pvgrc.org/poop/poop.htm


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## AmbikaGR

Here is the OFA current policy direct from their website on posting prelimianary results in their database.


___________________________________________________________

*Hip/Elbow Preliminary Examination Policy *









*Additional Criteria Policy change as of 5/1/04 *

In an effort to encourage open sharing of health test results, on January 1, 2004 the OFA began posting preliminary Hip and Elbow results for dogs tested after that date on its website _*IF the owner initialed the authorization block to release all results (including abnormal results).*_ 
Effective May 1, 2004, _*two additional criteria*_ must be met in order to publish the preliminary results:

*The dog must at least 12 months of age at the time of radiograph *
*The dog must be permanently identified via microchip or tattoo *
*Release of results for Preliminary Evaluations submitted prior to January 1, 2004 *

The OFA also will now allow owners to publish preliminary test results for dogs evaluated before January 1, 2004 if they submit a written request to the OFA.
In addition to the written request, all three of the above criteria must have been met—the owner must have initialed the box for open disclosure _*at the time of evaluation*_, the dog must be at least 12 months old, and the dog must be permanently identified via microchip or tattoo.


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## DNL2448

sammydog said:


> Not having a cardiologist look at the hearts because they are 1 hr 45 min away is a huge red flag. That is not that far.


I drove 5 hours (one way), spent the night in a hotel, and the doctor was with my dog 5 minutes! But that is what you have to do sometimes if you want what is best for your dog and the breed.


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## LizShort

Jax's Mom said:


> speaking of suspicious...what about the NEW thread by a NEW member stating not to buy from this breeder.


If you are referring to me, I guess you could see this as a bashing. On the other hand, I still have Jake 2.0 and he is one of the most wonderful creatures I have shared my time with. He does not rank up there with Short's John Quincy, but there was a special bond between the two of us that is very uncommon. Jake seems to be following in his footsteps though. 

If you read the beginning of this thread, you need to understand that I was, and still am, suffering from clinical depression. Jake was not just a pup to get to live with, he was also "medication" of sorts. It was suggested that I get a pet who I could love and would love me (long story, not going to get into it). I was beyond distraught. 

When I got Jake 1.0, there was something a bit off with him, seemingly neurologically and he was missing a toe. His gate was stilted and stumbling more so than a 7 week old puppy should be. I understand that it was a fluke and may not ever happen again. 

When I approached Dave about it, he already had my check and a check for the deposit written if I chose not to get the more expensive puppy (Jake 2.0) who was his pick of the litter. He came home, had some aggression issues that were quickly worked out. The only complaint I have of him now is that he is in the puppy stage where he either doesn't listen, or is hyper. Gee... what can I do about that... I know!!! Walk him longer in the evenings when I get home LOL.

Jake 2.0 is 6 months old and seems to have some iffy hips. I know I can't judge them completely as he is only 6 months. On the other hand, when he walks, his back sways like that of a snake and it takes him a little bit to get up off the ground. I hope it is not serious and I know I can't judge anything about his hips elbows or heart at the moment. 

I love Jake and he is and is going to be a fantastic pet. Will he ever make it as a show dog? I'm going to give it a shot. If not, he's still my beautiful Jake. 

My understanding is that Jake 1.0 has been rehomed with a pet family and is very happy. 

Dave is a good guy. He does his best to be honest and is very kind. Will I purchase another Gap View pup? Probably not. I have a new friend whose mom breeds and shows goldens. I'll get my next pup, probably in another year or two, from her.

As for pet quality, Gap View is fine.


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## tippykayak

Jax's Mom said:


> speaking of suspicious...what about the NEW thread by a NEW member stating not to buy from this breeder.


Well, if you've had a bad experience, you go on the internet, you type in the name of the breeder, and these threads come up. That seems like the most likely reason somebody would start off by posting a bad experience.

On the flip side, we've seen several times on here how a breeder or his associates will create accounts and pretend to be customers in order to provide positive testimonials.


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## tippykayak

AmbikaGR said:


> Here is the OFA current policy direct from their website on posting prelimianary results in their database.


Thanks Hank! That makes sense.


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## Jax's Mom

No...Lizshort...I wasn't referring to your post. The person was stating NOT to buy form this breeder.


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## Pointgold

Okay, just read PC Mom's explanation about how she came to be looking at documents when the owner wasn't around. Sorry to have raised suspicions, but it might be helpful to clarify these sorts of details in order to avoid putting yourself in a position to be questioned. 
Personally, I simply could not recommend such a breeder for the simple fact that too many corners are apprently being cut, this is a very high volume breeder, which I myself am not a fan of, and there are repeat breedings made of dogs known to produce problems, lots of what I consider "red flags" on the site. I spent just a brief amount of time on the OFA data base and do not find complete clearances. Nor are there permanent id's on most (with that number of dogs, I'd be concerned) and I can't say that the excuse for not having a board certified cardioloist doing hearts because they are too far away flies with me - I'm a minimum of 3.5 hours, and when we do clearances, we have to do a hotel in order to have eyes done one day and hearts the next (it's the only way they are scheduled.) If this breeder is profitting from the selling of puppies, he should certainly be able to afford doing eveything "right". With the number of dogs he has he could also get a cardiologist to come to his place and hold a clinic - he'd surely be able to get other GOlden breeder/owners in the area to participate.


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## Jersey's Mom

LizShort said:


> As for pet quality, Gap View is fine.


In light of your experiences, I have to say I'm a bit shocked that this is how you ended your post.

So it is "fine" for a "pet quality" dog to come with neurological issues and a missing toe?? (None of which was disclosed to you as the puppy buyer, either because they didn't know or they were hoping you would just accept it)

So it's "fine" for a "pet quality" dog to show signs of hip disfunction as early as 6 months?? Which sets the dog up for what kind of life, exactly? One filled with surgery, limited activity, and pain?

I'll never, never, understand why people believe that "pet quality" dogs deserve anything less than a conformation or dog sport champion. I'll never understand why anyone feels it's "fine" for "pet quality" dogs to receive any less protection in regards to their health throughout the breeding process (and beyond). 

Is it really "fine" for your family, or any family, to have to watch their dog suffer and drown in vet bills because the breeder was only producing "pet quality" dogs? I find that so sad. There is no higher honor for any dog than to be someone's beloved pet... a member of the family.... no title or award is more important or valuable than that.

Julie and Jersey


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## Ljilly28

PC Mom- this is a little off topic. I just want to say I am so sorry your golden has the awful osteosarcoma, and ask you if he has a Fentynal pain patch? I worry about how stoic goldens are on the outside v how painful bone cancer really is. I am very sorry to hear your boy has this cancer- I have lost three goldens to hemangiosarcoma and it is so hard to bear.


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## Pointgold

Jersey's Mom said:


> In light of your experiences, I have to say I'm a bit shocked that this is how you ended your post.
> 
> So it is "fine" for a "pet quality" dog to come with neurological issues and a missing toe?? (None of which was disclosed to you as the puppy buyer, either because they didn't know or they were hoping you would just accept it)
> 
> So it's "fine" for a "pet quality" dog to show signs of hip disfunction as early as 6 months?? Which sets the dog up for what kind of life, exactly? One filled with surgery, limited activity, and pain?
> 
> I'll never, never, understand why people believe that "pet quality" dogs deserve anything less than a conformation or dog sport champion. I'll never understand why anyone feels it's "fine" for "pet quality" dogs to receive any less protection in regards to their health throughout the breeding process (and beyond).
> 
> Is it really "fine" for your family, or any family, to have to watch their dog suffer and drown in vet bills because the breeder was only producing "pet quality" dogs? I find that so sad. There is no higher honor for any dog than to be someone's beloved pet... a member of the family.... no title or award is more important or valuable than that.
> 
> Julie and Jersey


I could not agree more with Julie's post. I have always said that there is no such thing as "just" a pet. I feel it is the single most important position a dog can ever hold. And I truly believe that pet owners deserve the very best as far as health and longevity with their chosen family member.


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## tippykayak

Jersey's Mom said:


> Is it really "fine" for your family, or any family, to have to watch their dog suffer and drown in vet bills because the breeder was only producing "pet quality" dogs? I find that so sad. There is no higher honor for any dog than to be someone's beloved pet... a member of the family.... no title or award is more important or valuable than that.


So, so true. In fact, I find it sad when dogs are only used for competition and don't have strong home bonds to the people who care for them. Pet first, competition winner second.


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## PC Mom

Ljilly28 said:


> PC Mom- this is a little off topic. I just want to say I am so sorry your golden has the awful osteosarcoma, and ask you if he has a Fentynal pain patch? I worry about how stoic goldens are on the outside v how painful bone cancer really is. I am very sorry to hear your boy has this cancer- I have lost three goldens to hemangiosarcoma and it is so hard to bear.


Thanks for your good thoughts! We sure need it. He does not have a fentynal patch. After several consultations with both our vet and a specialist, we decided on amputation. I really worried that he wouldn't adapt well, but he really has. The initial 2 weeks was difficult, especially since he had a drain in so had to stay in our office, the only room downstairs that we could cover in quilts and close the door. Thankfully it was osteosarcoma and not hemangiosarcoma and there are still no lung mets yet. I was really surprised how much removing the leg, which sounds so AWFUL, actually took away his pain. We aren't doing chemo because I didn't want to put him through that because for us, it's about quality of life.

PG- I totally should have explained how I came across those papers. I think I might have initially, but my post was so long that I started cutting stuff out. Obviously, I shouldn't have cut that out. :doh:

Thanks everyone for giving us some real stuff to think about.


----------



## buckeyegoldenmom

Jersey's Mom said:


> In light of your experiences, I have to say I'm a bit shocked that this is how you ended your post.
> 
> So it is "fine" for a "pet quality" dog to come with neurological issues and a missing toe?? (None of which was disclosed to you as the puppy buyer, either because they didn't know or they were hoping you would just accept it)
> 
> So it's "fine" for a "pet quality" dog to show signs of hip disfunction as early as 6 months?? Which sets the dog up for what kind of life, exactly? One filled with surgery, limited activity, and pain?
> 
> I'll never, never, understand why people believe that "pet quality" dogs deserve anything less than a conformation or dog sport champion. I'll never understand why anyone feels it's "fine" for "pet quality" dogs to receive any less protection in regards to their health throughout the breeding process (and beyond).
> 
> Is it really "fine" for your family, or any family, to have to watch their dog suffer and drown in vet bills because the breeder was only producing "pet quality" dogs? I find that so sad. There is no higher honor for any dog than to be someone's beloved pet... a member of the family.... no title or award is more important or valuable than that.
> 
> Julie and Jersey


Julie this was very well stated. The moment I read about the possible hip problems...I was surprised at her support of Gap View. 

All "pet quality" goldens deserve the same chance of a healthy life, as any conformation show dog. The best way to increase the odds of this is to go with a breeder who does all the clearances and doesn't cut corners. I have been through raising and taking care of a golden with difficulty getting up from a young age. My first golden, Casey, had severe bilateral hip dyplasia and had a total hip done by age 3years. He was on medication for pain the rest of his life.

No we can't guarantee perfect health if all the clearances are done and everything is done according to the golden retriever kennel club ethics, but at least the odds are in our favor.


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## Pointgold

I am wondering if Mr. Liskey or his staff ever told any of our GRF members that he is a member of the Golden Retriever Club of America?

He does claim GRCA membership (it is on his business card)
http://www.cambridgewhoswho.com/Members/VA/David-Liskey-325609.html


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## PC Mom

I was never told that, at least not that I remember.


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## Pointgold

PC Mom said:


> I was never told that, at least not that I remember.


It is also on this document:
http://www.gapviewkennel.com/pdf_files/refund.pdf


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## PC Mom

I'm guessing that he's not, based on the fact that you are asking these questions? Is there a way to check this? Obviously it seems like he is not following many of the recommendations of GRCA (based on the little reading I've done on their site.) 

Pop

What was that sound? Another red flag going off in my head.


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## Pointgold

PC Mom said:


> I'm guessing that he's not, based on the fact that you are asking these questions? Is there a way to check this? Obviously it seems like he is not following many of the recommendations of GRCA (based on the little reading I've done on their site.)
> 
> Pop
> 
> What was that sound? Another red flag going off in my head.


 

I did check with the GRCA Internet Watchdogs, and he is not listed as a member. 
Claiming GRCA membership lends "legitimacy" and is a common tactic used by many high volume breeders and puppy mills.


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## DCPakaMOM

I just spent some time at the website and quite honestly, I would vomit if one of my puppies ever ended up as a breeding machine, sire or dam. Maybe I just care way too much for this glorious breed to stomach people who continually breed over and over and over for profit. Naive - yes. Places like this are all over the place. 

I can stomach the fact that people may breed and not show in any venue. But you breed to better the breed, not to produce puppies to make money. Do people who breed multiple litters a year really care where their puppies end up? Can you do that when you produce hundreds of puppies? Do you just breed the bitches cycle after cycle, year after year?

And when people let them know of hip issues from a breeding - why repeat that breeding? Why not go investigate that puppy and not breed those two dogs again? 

I am all for pets and honestly agree that there is no more important job for these loved puppies than to be someone's best friend. But, why not care enough to make sure everything is done to give those best friends their best chance? If you know there are hip issues, neurological issues, temperament issues -- why is heaven's name would you ever continue to breed the parents of that litter? Why? I guess because money is much more important than the breed and unsuspecting buyers who are not knowledgeable who then fall in love with a cute fur ball and cannot foresee the huge expenses, both financial and emotional, down the road.

OK, off my soapbox for now. Just had to get that out or bust.


----------



## bigds01

Pointgold said:


> I did check with the GRCA Internet Watchdogs, and he is not listed as a member.
> Claiming GRCA membership lends "legitimacy" and is a common tactic used by many high volume breeders and puppy mills.



Ahh my good old friend point of gold is out slamming the competition again. You are a zealot in the purest sense of the word. Many of us don't post specifically because of you and your merry band of fellow zealots.

A ton of us have gotten dogs from Dave and have had, cherish the thought, NO PROBLEMS. In actuality the only negatives posted on this guy are on this forum. I challenge you to find a single negative comment literally anywhere else. If he was as bad as you and your zealots make him out to be, there would literally be thousands of negative customer reviews.

But come on now, lets make it clear who has posted negative things, people who never dealt with the man, never spoke with him, read his website and specifically stated never judge a breeder by their website, but in his case we'll make an exception.

Just admit that you are a jealous competitor who should be so fortunate as to have a 1/4 of his business and happy clients. 

Through this forum I met another person who got their dog out of the same litter we did, and guess what, we have both been told by many people that our dogs are absolutely perfect and to date breed standard.

So back off Dave, who btw doesn't read this forum. You do business with him, and you are unhappy then complain. If you are some telephone tough guy (point of gold), just be quiet.


----------



## AmbikaGR

bigds01 said:


> Ahh my good old friend point of gold is out slamming the competition again. You are a zealot in the purest sense of the word. Many of us don't post specifically because of you and your merry band of fellow zealots.
> 
> A ton of us have gotten dogs from Dave and have had, cherish the thought, NO PROBLEMS. In actuality the only negatives posted on this guy are on this forum. I challenge you to find a single negative comment literally anywhere else. If he was as bad as you and your zealots make him out to be, there would literally be thousands of negative customer reviews.
> 
> But come on now, lets make it clear who has posted negative things, people who never dealt with the man, never spoke with him, read his website and specifically stated never judge a breeder by their website, but in his case we'll make an exception.
> 
> Just admit that you are a jealous competitor who should be so fortunate as to have a 1/4 of his business and happy clients.
> 
> Through this forum I met another person who got their dog out of the same litter we did, and guess what, we have both been told by many people that our dogs are absolutely perfect and to date breed standard.
> 
> So back off Dave, who btw doesn't read this forum. You do business with him, and you are unhappy then complain. If you are some telephone tough guy (point of gold), just be quiet.


I am glad that you have had great luck with your dog. Buthat does not give any kennel a free past if they are not checking evrey dog prior to ever breeding it for any of widely accepted clearances in the breed. I do not care how many happy "customers" they have. And honestly I think that word "cutomer" says volumes. As for any responsible breeder I know they never refer to a person that gets a pup from them as a "customer" but as "family". 
Well of course you know I hope people like PG never back off folks like Dave till they clean up their breeding programs and stop their lies. If you really understood breeders like PG you would kniow they are not in "compettion" with any breeders. They are trully doing it to better the breed and are willing to do all the testing and evaluating that goes along with talking the talk. So if this forum can just reach a handful of unknowing trusting puppy buyers and steer them to a better choice it is a WONDERFUL thing.


----------



## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> Ahh my good old friend point of gold is out slamming the competition again. You are a zealot in the purest sense of the word. Many of us don't post specifically because of you and your merry band of fellow zealots.
> 
> A ton of us have gotten dogs from Dave and have had, cherish the thought, NO PROBLEMS. In actuality the only negatives posted on this guy are on this forum. I challenge you to find a single negative comment literally anywhere else. If he was as bad as you and your zealots make him out to be, there would literally be thousands of negative customer reviews.
> 
> But come on now, lets make it clear who has posted negative things, people who never dealt with the man, never spoke with him, read his website and specifically stated never judge a breeder by their website, but in his case we'll make an exception.
> 
> Just admit that you are a jealous competitor who should be so fortunate as to have a 1/4 of his business and happy clients.
> 
> Through this forum I met another person who got their dog out of the same litter we did, and guess what, we have both been told by many people that our dogs are absolutely perfect and to date breed standard.
> 
> So back off Dave, who btw doesn't read this forum. You do business with him, and you are unhappy then complain. If you are some telephone tough guy (point of gold), just be quiet.


 

Facts is facts. He doesn't do all clearances, and makes claims that can be proven to be false.
I am happy for you that you have an absolutely perfect dog.
I am absolutely *green *with envy.


----------



## bigds01

Pointgold said:


> Facts is facts. He doesn't do all clearances, and makes claims that can be proven to be false.
> I am happy for you that you have an absolutely perfect dog.
> I am absolutely *green *with envy.


So why don't you pick up the phone, call him and challenge his statements? It is easy to be an Internet tough guy.


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## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> So why don't you pick up the phone, call him and challenge his statements? It is easy to be an Internet tough guy.


Hmm. Would it actually be _you _answering the phone? :smooch:


----------



## tippykayak

bigds01 said:


> Just admit that you are a jealous competitor who should be so fortunate as to have a 1/4 of his business and happy clients.


Am I a competitor? No. And frankly, neither is PG. If she were breeding for profit or even in the same market as you (I believe she is in the midwest somewhere), you might have an argument. But somebody who produces litters very infrequently is in no way realistically an economic competitor with a large volume breeder.

Also, I notice that you don't attack the substance of the problems with this breeder, but rather resort to thin _ad hominem_ slurs leveled at people who really care about the breed. Is it OK to breed Goldens without complete clearances? Then go ahead and say so. Nobody's fabricating this problem; we're simply expressing the bare minimum for ethical breeding (which can be seen on the GRCA website, so it's not a fabrication of this forums' breeders) and noting that the breeder does not meet those standards.

Is it OK to have handled your puppies so little that you can sell one without a toe and not notice? Or is the breeder simply so unethical that he sold the puppy without mentioning the handicap? You have two options: is Gap View totally unethical or totally incompetent? Or is the individual who reported this experience simply lying?


----------



## bigds01

Pointgold said:


> Hmm. Would it actually be _you _answering the phone? :smooch:



I keep telling you, I am just a customer of his whom had a great experience.


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## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> I keep telling you, I am just a customer of his whom had a great experience.


I see... He must be so grateful that he himself doesn't have to defend his breeding practices.


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## AmbikaGR

I had not been to the Gap View website for a while and I went there for another look. they have two litters' listed under the Current/Upcoming page. Of the four dogs involved in these two breedings

Two do not have hip clearances listed on the OFA database
All four heart clearances are by a practioner
None of them has elbow clearances listed 
And all four CERF clearances are outdated. 

So from my perspective of the 16 clearances that THEY themselves state should be done and why they are important right on their home page, ony two are actually acceptable. That is 2 out of 16 or 12 1/2 %. I again think that speaks volumes and this breeder is being deceptive by what they put on their VERY FANCY and up to date website.


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## Pointgold

AmbikaGR said:


> I had not been to the Gap View website for a while and I went there for another look. they have two litters' listed under the Current/Upcoming page. Of the four dogs involved in these two breedings
> 
> Two do not have hip clearances listed on the OFA database
> All four heart clearances are by a practioner
> None of them has elbow clearances listed
> And all four CERF clearances are outdated.
> 
> So from my perspective of the 16 clearances that THEY themselves state should be done and why they are important right on their home page, ony two are actually acceptable. That is 2 out of 16 or 12 1/2 %. I again think that speaks volumes and this breeder is being deceptive by what they put on their VERY FANCY and up to date website.


 
Oh be quiet, you jealous competitor you...


----------



## tippykayak

AmbikaGR said:


> Two do not have hip clearances listed on the OFA database
> All four heart clearances are by a practioner
> None of them has elbow clearances listed
> And all four CERF clearances are outdated.


How could somebody possibly defend a breeder when the facts are so plain?


----------



## bigds01

Pointgold said:


> I see... He must be so grateful that he himself doesn't have to defend his breeding practices.


I will even give you their number: 540-896-7327

Don't be a person that takes no action. If you feel as strongly as you post that they are a bad breeder, have the guts to call them and tell them that they are harming the breed. I am betting that you just love to pontificate with no actual action. You yourself have stated that he has no right to call himself a member of GRCA, so call him on it.

I and everyone else looks forward to hearing the outcome of your conversation with dave.


----------



## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> I will even give you their number: 540-896-7327
> 
> Don't be a person that takes no action. If you feel as strongly as you post that they are a bad breeder, have the guts to call them and tell them that they are harming the breed. I am betting that you just love to pontificate with no actual action. You yourself have stated that he has no right to call himself a member of GRCA, so call him on it.
> 
> I and everyone else looks forward to hearing the outcome of your conversation with dave.


The facts speak for themselves, Seth. The databases tell the story. The onus is upon the breeder to prove himself.


----------



## tippykayak

bigds01 said:


> I will even give you their number: 540-896-7327
> 
> Don't be a person that takes no action. If you feel as strongly as you post that they are a bad breeder, have the guts to call them and tell them that they are harming the breed. I am betting that you just love to pontificate with no actual action. You yourself have stated that he has no right to call himself a member of GRCA, so call him on it.
> 
> I and everyone else looks forward to hearing the outcome of your conversation with dave.


I'm not sure what you think would be the benefit of such a phone call. Obviously the guy is making money. Why would he take a call, much less change his behavior? The point of this thread is to discuss whether this breeder is acting in accordance with the ethical standards set out by his breed club, of which he claims to be a member. We can't force people to breed ethically. We can, however, make sure that the people who ask us for advice get a fair shot at hearing all the facts.

I notice that you have some aversion to responding to the actual, demonstrable claims about this breeder's failure to meet ethical standards, particularly when it comes to clearances.


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## bigds01

Holy hell, how did you people buy dogs before the advent of every cert known to man? You meet the breeder, you like the dog, you buy it. All I am saying is if you want to say he is a bad breeder many many times, have the guts to call him and tell him. It is easy to be a tough guy until you have to act on it.


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## tippykayak

bigds01 said:


> Holy hell, how did you people buy dogs before the advent of every cert known to man? You meet the breeder, you like the dog, you buy it. All I am saying is if you want to say he is a bad breeder many many times, have the guts to call him and tell him. It is easy to be a tough guy until you have to act on it.


OK, so you're saying that the GRCA code of ethics is a load of hooey and that it's not important to minimize a dog's chances of getting a crippling, debilitating condition that will cut short his life and diminish its quality, even though the tools to help us prevent that are obvious and easy to use? Thank you for going on the record.

I'm glad we know where you stand and exactly how much you value the life of a Golden Retriever. If that's what you think, a kennel like Gap View is perfect for you, because you can get a dog just in exchange for a check. All of the great breeders I know would refuse to sell to someone who was so cavalier about a dog's life, no matter how big a check you could write.


----------



## tippykayak

bigds01 said:


> Holy hell, how did you people buy dogs before the advent of every cert known to man? You meet the breeder, you like the dog, you buy it. All I am saying is if you want to say he is a bad breeder many many times, have the guts to call him and tell him. It is easy to be a tough guy until you have to act on it.


PS - there are _four_ certifications that are standard for Goldens. It's not rocket science.


----------



## arcane

*hmmm??!!!!*



bigds01 said:


> Holy hell, how did you people buy dogs before the advent of every cert known to man? You meet the breeder, you like the dog, you buy it. All I am saying is if you want to say he is a bad breeder many many times, have the guts to call him and tell him. It is easy to be a tough guy until you have to act on it.



*I believe ethical breeders have evolved over the years. Adding clearances as it has come to light that they are an issue in our breed, That is what happens when you are breeding to improve!!

How come this breeder has not popped on here to defend his great reputation  or has he??? :
*


----------



## bigds01

arcane said:


> *I believe ethical breeders have evolved over the years. Adding clearances as it has come to light that they are an issue in our breed, That is what happens when you are breeding to improve!!
> 
> How come this breeder has not popped on here to defend his great reputation  or has he??? :
> *



So what I want you to do is call Dave and ask if I work for him. What he will tell you is that I don't, haven't spoken to him in 6 months since we picked up our dog and that we are great pet owners.

So before you post any more negative things, man up and call him and tell him you believe he is the destroyer of the breed.


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## Pointgold

Perhaps if the man were practicing what he preaches, OR, put on his website "I don't feel that I have to do all clearances recommended byt the organization that I claim to be a member of" it wouldn't be an issue. 

As "consumers", it is smart to try to get the most for your money, and not at all out of line to expect that what is advertised is actually what you are getting.

As an aside, I don't think that you can find any of my posts in which I say what a terrible, awful breeder this man is, rather, I have simply pointed out discrepancies in his website claims, and the lack of basic clearances for many of the dogs that he is breeding. Purely informational. Yet, Mr. bgds01 has singled me out as attacking this kennel, when in fact I have done nothing more or less than many others here. I don't apologize for my committment to the breed and to those who are looking to buy the best dog that they can.


----------



## AmbikaGR

bigds01 said:


> Holy hell, how did you people buy dogs before the advent of every cert known to man? You meet the breeder, you like the dog, you buy it. All I am saying is if you want to say he is a bad breeder many many times, have the guts to call him and tell him. It is easy to be a tough guy until you have to act on it.


And all I am saying is THIS breeder is well aware of the "advent of every cert known to man". They state that very fact on their home page of teir website. And yet they do not follow them. So obviously they are more concerned about the bottom line created by their "customers" then they are about the well being of this wonderful breed.


----------



## AmbikaGR

bigds01 said:


> So what I want you to do is call Dave and ask if I work for him. What he will tell you is that I don't, haven't spoken to him in 6 months since we picked up our dog and that we are great pet owners.
> 
> So before you post any more negative things, man up and call him and tell him you believe he is the destroyer of the breed.


 
I have left a message for the breeder of Gap View asking him why he does not do the very clearances he speaks of on his website's homepage. The ball is now in his court, okay?


----------



## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> So what I want you to do is call Dave and ask if I work for him. What he will tell you is that I don't, haven't spoken to him in 6 months since we picked up our dog and that we are great pet owners.
> 
> So before you post any more negative things, man up and call him and tell him you believe he is the destroyer of the breed.


 
So, how does he know that you are great pet owners? He has not spoken to you since you picked up your dog? I personally cannot imagine sending a puppy to its new home and not speaking with the owners to see how the puppy is, to find out if there are any questions, and to reiterate that if there is anything at all that I can help with to pleas contact me. 
My responsibility and concern for the puppies that I produce does not end when the check clears.


----------



## paula bedard

As a 'consumer', I'd like to know...and maybe it's not knowable, how much healthier and longer lived our beloved Golden's would be, if those who bred them took the time, patience, money, and devotion necessary to breed responsibly.

...this from a Mom to a BYB pup and a High Volume Breeder pup. I lost Sam at 12 to multiple diseases common to the breed...and I'm nervously watching my Ike grow and keeping my fingers crossed. I wish I'd come to GRF BEFORE I made my decisions. I'd have been better informed when doing my pup searching. I'm hoping Ike beats the odds and I have the longest lived Golden on record...but aren't we all?


----------



## bigds01

Pointgold said:


> So, how does he know that you are great pet owners? He has not spoken to you since you picked up your dog? I personally cannot imagine sending a puppy to its new home and not speaking with the owners to see how the puppy is, to find out if there are any questions, and to reiterate that if there is anything at all that I can help with to pleas contact me.
> My responsibility and concern for the puppies that I produce does not end when the check clears.


You are the personification of every crazy dog person I have dealt with. After I get a dog from you, I don't care to know you. You are providing me a service, I don't call my garbage man to ask how he is feeling the day after I put out my garbage. Dogs are not furry kids, they are not people, they are a pet that is to be loved, taken care of and replaced when necessary. Call me whatever you want, but just stop pretending that you and other breeders are anything but a service provider.

And any idiot that says well I don't care how big of a check you write, (outside of clear nefarious plans like buying a whole litter) is just a dolt. If you didn't care how big of a check people wrote, you would sell all of your dogs for only the costs you incur in breeding to ensure that everyone had the opportunity to own one of your amazing dogs, not the people like me that spend a couple of grand on a pet.


----------



## bigds01

AmbikaGR said:


> I have left a message for the breeder of Gap View asking him why he does not do the very clearances he speaks of on his website's homepage. The ball is now in his court, okay?



Great, here is someone that I will respect and listen to their opinion. They just didn't stand by, they took action.


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## tippykayak

bigds01 said:


> Great, here is someone that I will respect and listen to their opinion. They just didn't stand by, they took action.


So now you agree that Gap View should do all their clearances, even though they don't?


----------



## bigds01

tippykayak said:


> So now you agree that Gap View should do all their clearances, even though they don't?


I never said they shouldn't. As a matter of fact I asked a ton of questions based upon the very information that I received on this site. However, I went and talked with the person, visited the site, talked with other owners and came away happy.

I also spoke with my vet whom is one of the top in northern virginia, had them review the records and they were happy with them as well.

With that said, would I have loved to have an elbow certificate, sure. Did we ask owners of other dogs in the same line if they had a problem and if they got certified, you betcha.

My point is, before you go on a zealot fueled rant, do a little more research of actually calling someone.


----------



## tippykayak

bigds01 said:


> I never said they shouldn't. As a matter of fact I asked a ton of questions based upon the very information that I received on this site. However, I went and talked with the person, visited the site, talked with other owners and came away happy.
> 
> I also spoke with my vet whom is one of the top in northern virginia, had them review the records and they were happy with them as well.
> 
> With that said, would I have loved to have an elbow certificate, sure. Did we ask owners of other dogs in the same line if they had a problem and if they got certified, you betcha.
> 
> My point is, before you go on a zealot fueled rant, do a little more research of actually calling someone.


Zealot fuel sounds like an energy drink.

I simply can't agree with you that a general impression of quality is better than a very basic series of certifications. Hip dysplasia is a crippling condition, and there is simply no excuse for failing to give a dog the best possible shot at avoiding it. There's a reason these four clearances have become a bare minimum for breeding Goldens, and it's really inexcusable of you to defend and promote a breeder who is lax in protecting his dogs' quality of life.

I'm not a crazy dog person. I don't refer to my pets as "furkids" (neither does PG) or confuse them for people. I do, however, regard them as more than simple property that wears out and needs replacement, and I think they deserve whatever quality of life we can give them. Breeding without doing clearances, with very few exceptions, is unethical, and frankly, giving your dollars to someone who does so is unethical too.


----------



## tippykayak

bigds01 said:


> With that said, would I have loved to have an elbow certificate, sure. Did we ask owners of other dogs in the same line if they had a problem and if they got certified, you betcha.


Wait, you found a bunch of dogs from the same line who had elbow problems? I'm not really sure what you mean here.


----------



## BeauShel

I wonder if you would still feel the same about your breeder if your dog had a bad heart, bad hips, bad elbows or any other major condition that was bred from a dog with that in their line. Would you spend thousands on him/her to make him well or comfortable or would you get rid of him? Or your dog was 1 year old and was running and playing and keeled over dead from a heart condition? And it was a genetic issue the breeder could have avoided. 

Everyone on here is right to question his clearances and breeding practices. He put him out there on the web and states things on his website that are not true. Things that can be verified without calling him. And a phone call would not prove anything because the biggest are the clearances and those would have to be seen in person.If they are done why not put them on the offa.org site for everyone to verify. Dave has stated to a member here that he didnt take his dogs to a cardiologist to get clearances because it was an hour and half away. To me that is just laziness and shows he isnt putting the dogs first. 
And every legitimate breeder that does it for the love of the breed says a quality breeder can never make money breeding. So if he has so many dogs and litters and cannot provide the information like clearances or being a member of the GRCA he is a "greeder". 

I am not or ever will be a breeder. I am a person that works with a rescue that gets the dogs after they are dumped at shelter or by millers. People that call themselves breeders but dont do the clearances, breed all the time and are not trying to better the breed are nothing more than a "greeder". My latest dog that I adopted is from a "greeder" and every 6-8 months another one gets dumped at the shelter and the rescue picks them up. They all look alike, have same personality and same health issues.


----------



## AmbikaGR

bigds01 said:


> You are the personification of every crazy dog person I have dealt with. After I get a dog from you, I don't care to know you. You are providing me a service, I don't call my garbage man to ask how he is feeling the day after I put out my garbage. Dogs are not furry kids, they are not people, they are a pet that is to be loved, taken care of and replaced when necessary. Call me whatever you want, but just stop pretending that you and other breeders are anything but a service provider.
> 
> And any idiot that says well I don't care how big of a check you write, (outside of clear nefarious plans like buying a whole litter) is just a dolt. If you didn't care how big of a check people wrote, you would sell all of your dogs for only the costs you incur in breeding to ensure that everyone had the opportunity to own one of your amazing dogs, not the people like me that spend a couple of grand on a pet.


You really should know that you are not alone in your feelings and beliefs stated here. And unfortunately that is EXACTLY what breeders like this bank on. They LOVE the idea of taking the cash and then never hearing again from the people. A responsible breeder is a service provider but their service does not end once the check is cleared. It is a service that lasts at least as long as the pup lives and in many cases even longer. And you truly would be surprised just how little most responsible and reputable breeders make on selling a pup. It surely is not enough to support them. 
I honestly hope that some day you get to experience getting a pup from a breeder that is so much more than Gap View.


----------



## NuttinButGoldens

Ok, I've been watching quietly as this unfolds. No more...

First, I AM a former Gap View customer. My Comet was the best ****** dog I ever had. He lived until 12, when he passed from Cancer this last January. His Pop was Dakota and his Mom was Las Vegas, both Gap View dogs.

When I got him, Mr. Howard was running and owned the farm. Dave was a partner of his IIRC.

All that aside... 

Do NOT disguard the the benefits of a well know, respected breeder, particularly if they are located near you.

My Gilmour comes from one of the best. When she sells a dog, it is not a "Transaction" and that is it. Have a safe trip home. Far from it. For example:



She sends home the pup with a full puppy packet including detailed feeding recommendations (VERY detailed), vaccination recommendations that are in line with the leading expert in the field (Dobbs) and not what your Vet typically gives.
I can communicate with her by phone or email any time I want. She is always happy to help.
I have to care for my Mom on Saturdays. She has end-stage COPD, and Saturdays are my nursing days. On saturday's that she is not at a show or field training, I drop Gilmour off and he stays there with her other Goldens, on a nice big lot he can really stretch out and run in, until I pick him up in the afternoon.
More than once she has personally delivered him back to me at my Mom's house when the timing of my picking him up didn't work out.
She has picked him up from my house a few times when needed.
She grooms him when needed.
She clips his nails when needed.
She tosses in little 'training idea's' when needed.

And what does she charge me for all this? Not a ****** thing. She's one of the finest people I've ever met.

So don't sit there and say this is just a 'transaction', and that's the way it should be. You can have that if you want, and that's fine. But it's not the only way.



bigds01 said:


> You are the personification of every crazy dog person I have dealt with. After I get a dog from you, I don't care to know you. You are providing me a service, I don't call my garbage man to ask how he is feeling the day after I put out my garbage. Dogs are not furry kids, they are not people, they are a pet that is to be loved, taken care of and replaced when necessary. Call me whatever you want, but just stop pretending that you and other breeders are anything but a service provider.
> 
> And any idiot that says well I don't care how big of a check you write, (outside of clear nefarious plans like buying a whole litter) is just a dolt. If you didn't care how big of a check people wrote, you would sell all of your dogs for only the costs you incur in breeding to ensure that everyone had the opportunity to own one of your amazing dogs, not the people like me that spend a couple of grand on a pet.


----------



## Selli-Belle

Yeah, I am a zealot!

Calling the breeder makes no sense. Obviously he knows that he is not following the claims he makes on his website in terms of clearances. Why would he change if someone calls him up. If someone called up the person who started the Nigerian email scam and told them they are committing fraud, do you think they would have suddenly stopped?

The best thing we can do is warn people that he is not following the code of ethics of the GRCA and that they should look for a breeder who does follow through with the claims they make.


----------



## PC Mom

NuttinButGoldens said:


> All that aside...
> 
> Do NOT disguard the the benefits of a well know, respected breeder, particularly if they are located near you.
> 
> My Gilmour comes from one of the best. When she sells a dog, it is not a "Transaction" and that is it. Have a safe trip home. Far from it.


I have a question for you-I'd pm you but I don't think I have enough posts yet. I am researching other breeders in the area, and if I remember, you are in NOVA? Where did you get your dog from? I'm now trying to find a new breeder, and am running in circles. I even tried finding the post you had about finding a breeder back in January, but couldn't find it. Thanks for any information you might have!!!


----------



## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> You are the personification of every crazy dog person I have dealt with. After I get a dog from you, I don't care to know you. You are providing me a service, I don't call my garbage man to ask how he is feeling the day after I put out my garbage. Dogs are not furry kids, they are not people, they are a pet that is to be loved, taken care of and replaced when necessary. Call me whatever you want, but just stop pretending that you and other breeders are anything but a service provider.
> 
> And any idiot that says well I don't care how big of a check you write, (outside of clear nefarious plans like buying a whole litter) is just a dolt. If you didn't care how big of a check people wrote, you would sell all of your dogs for only the costs you incur in breeding to ensure that everyone had the opportunity to own one of your amazing dogs, not the people like me that spend a couple of grand on a pet.


Coming from you, I will take this as a high compliment. LOL
I have _repeatedly _stated (and if you didn't simply look for threads/posts about Gap View you might have noticed) that dogs are not "furr kids", I don't call them that, and actually wish that people wouldn't. That said, these dogs do NOT ask to be produced, so I am responsible for them. People who purchase a puppy from me know up front how I do things and that my participation doesn't end once I cash their check. Their check which is, by the way, not enough to cover the costs incurred in breeding - I've never sold a puppy for a "couple of grand". If they don't like the idea of a breeder who wants to know the people who purchase my puppies and what kind of home they will provide, there is no one holding a gun to their head making them do so, not that I would sell a puppy to someone who doesn't. 
And frankly, I would not consider selling one of my "amazing dogs" (thanks - I work hard to produce the best dogs that I can!) to someone who can compare them to the service that your garbage man provides.
For your puppy's sake (6 or 7 months old now from what you've written) I hope that he proves to be a healthy dog and doesn't suffer hip or elbow dysplasia, or early cancer - he's quite young to be able to say for sure that he's perfect and won't - and that you don't have to "replace him as necessary.


----------



## Noey

NuttinButGoldens said:


> Ok, I've been watching quietly as this unfolds. No more...
> 
> First, I AM a former Gap View customer. My Comet was the best ****** dog I ever had. He lived until 12, when he passed from Cancer this last January. His Pop was Dakota and his Mom was Las Vegas, both Gap View dogs.
> 
> When I got him, Mr. Howard was running and owned the farm. Dave was a partner of his IIRC.
> 
> All that aside...
> 
> Do NOT disguard the the benefits of a well know, respected breeder, particularly if they are located near you.
> 
> My Gilmour comes from one of the best. When she sells a dog, it is not a "Transaction" and that is it. Have a safe trip home. Far from it. For example:
> 
> 
> 
> She sends home the pup with a full puppy packet including detailed feeding recommendations (VERY detailed), vaccination recommendations that are in line with the leading expert in the field (Dobbs) and not what your Vet typically gives.
> I can communicate with her by phone or email any time I want. She is always happy to help.
> I have to care for my Mom on Saturdays. She has end-stage COPD, and Saturdays are my nursing days. On saturday's that she is not at a show or field training, I drop Gilmour off and he stays there with her other Goldens, on a nice big lot he can really stretch out and run in, until I pick him up in the afternoon.
> More than once she has personally delivered him back to me at my Mom's house when the timing of my picking him up didn't work out.
> She has picked him up from my house a few times when needed.
> She grooms him when needed.
> She clips his nails when needed.
> She tosses in little 'training idea's' when needed.
> 
> And what does she charge me for all this? Not a ****** thing. She's one of the finest people I've ever met.
> 
> So don't sit there and say this is just a 'transaction', and that's the way it should be. You can have that if you want, and that's fine. But it's not the only way.


We keep in contact with Gap View all we want.

Noah came with a puppy care pack

He talked with us practically all day, we were at the ranch from early morning until 3pm

when it was time to finalize everything - puppy pack, small pack of food, knowledge that we can call anytime, a please let us know how he is doing. His vet check from Gaps vet. 

Training advice on how he trained all his goldens....which are verbal sound trained...potty training advice (but Noah came ready) shot chart and things to look out for.

He also is a kennel and can house our guy if we needed and we were told (per contract) if for whatever reason we have to give-up Noah we have to contact Gap and they would help. (in the contract)

He homes older goldens.


----------



## AmbikaGR

Noey said:


> We keep in contact with Gap View all we want.
> 
> Noah came with a puppy care pack
> 
> He talked with us practically all day, we were at the ranch from early morning until 3pm
> 
> when it was time to finalize everything - puppy pack, small pack of food, knowledge that we can call anytime, a please let us know how he is doing. His vet check from Gaps vet.
> 
> Training advice on how he trained all his goldens....which are verbal sound trained...potty training advice (but Noah came ready) shot chart and things to look out for.
> 
> He also is a kennel and can house our guy if we needed and we were told (per contract) if for whatever reason we have to give-up Noah we have to contact Gap and they would help. (in the contract)
> 
> He homes older goldens.


Well it is good to know that he does do somethings properly and appears to have a genuine interest in the pups after they leave. But it still does not justify what he does not do BEFORE, concerning the sire and dam.


----------



## NuttinButGoldens

I wasn't directing my post at Gap View. I was directing it at the writers comment that it was all simply a transaction, and after-sale support was not important.

I didn't say Gap view didn't provide this  I wasn't even thinking of them at the time.



Noey said:


> We keep in contact with Gap View all we want.
> 
> Noah came with a puppy care pack
> 
> He talked with us practically all day, we were at the ranch from early morning until 3pm
> 
> when it was time to finalize everything - puppy pack, small pack of food, knowledge that we can call anytime, a please let us know how he is doing. His vet check from Gaps vet.
> 
> Training advice on how he trained all his goldens....which are verbal sound trained...potty training advice (but Noah came ready) shot chart and things to look out for.
> 
> He also is a kennel and can house our guy if we needed and we were told (per contract) if for whatever reason we have to give-up Noah we have to contact Gap and they would help. (in the contract)
> 
> He homes older goldens.


----------



## NuttinButGoldens

BTW... remember. I was a happy Gap View customer 

I have concerns about their administrative processes, but I don't hate them. Far from it. Like I said, Comet was the best dog I ever owned and he came from there.

In January when I lost Comet, they were the first place I went. I even asked if they had lines from Dakota still working. I was NOT against buying from them, on principal. I had concerns about paperwork/clearances, but if they could clear that up with me I was fine.

In the process of the search, I simply came across an exceptional situation I could not turn down.

I know Dave loves his dogs. I've never questioned that.



Noey said:


> We keep in contact with Gap View all we want.
> 
> Noah came with a puppy care pack
> 
> He talked with us practically all day, we were at the ranch from early morning until 3pm
> 
> when it was time to finalize everything - puppy pack, small pack of food, knowledge that we can call anytime, a please let us know how he is doing. His vet check from Gaps vet.
> 
> Training advice on how he trained all his goldens....which are verbal sound trained...potty training advice (but Noah came ready) shot chart and things to look out for.
> 
> He also is a kennel and can house our guy if we needed and we were told (per contract) if for whatever reason we have to give-up Noah we have to contact Gap and they would help. (in the contract)
> 
> He homes older goldens.


----------



## NuttinButGoldens

I will send you a PM. You are only 4 away from being of legal age 



PC Mom said:


> I have a question for you-I'd pm you but I don't think I have enough posts yet. I am researching other breeders in the area, and if I remember, you are in NOVA? Where did you get your dog from? I'm now trying to find a new breeder, and am running in circles. I even tried finding the post you had about finding a breeder back in January, but couldn't find it. Thanks for any information you might have!!!


----------



## paula bedard

Noey said:


> We keep in contact with Gap View all we want.
> 
> Noah came with a puppy care pack
> 
> He talked with us practically all day, we were at the ranch from early morning until 3pm
> 
> when it was time to finalize everything - puppy pack, small pack of food, knowledge that we can call anytime, a please let us know how he is doing. His vet check from Gaps vet.
> 
> Training advice on how he trained all his goldens....which are verbal sound trained...potty training advice (but Noah came ready) shot chart and things to look out for.
> 
> He also is a kennel and can house our guy if we needed and we were told (per contract) if for whatever reason we have to give-up Noah we have to contact Gap and they would help. (in the contract)
> 
> He homes older goldens.


I came away from my Breeder with all this and then some. All of Ike's puppy shots were free also, as long as I traveled back to the Breeder to get them, which I did. 
I actually had a very good experience with my Breeder, before, during, and the first year after. I still am in touch with them, though they are more reluctant to contact me now. What I have learned after being at the Forum and learning more about Breeding practices is that not every dog in my Breeder's kennel has it's certifications, some just have their prelims. I thought nothing of this as the Breeder told me it was perfectly fine. I also found that eye cert's are not all kept current...or registered with the appropriate agency. Why not if they are legit and they know that a prospective owner will want to see these certifications? I was shown all the paper work and given copies...it wasn't until I made phone calls to the agencies about these tests when I couldn't find them listed in the OFA database any longer, that I learned they'd been allowed to lapse. These dogs were still being bred by my Breeder. I also had the displeasure of my Breeder showing up at the Forum and making an A$$ out of himself and being combative with the Breeders here. THAT really bothered me. If he is proud of the dogs he's producing and has nothing to hide, then why make a scene and get himself banned, when all he had to do was explain himself? I don't think you were here at the time, but it was all very embarrassing... and childish behavior. NOT Professional at all.

Luckily for me, Ike's parents had all their cert's, but not so for each in the the generations back...so I will wait before I start to worry...but worry I will, because my goal when researching and finding Ike was to "hopefully" have more years with Ike than I was blessed to have had with Sam. 
I know that there are no guarantees, but I tried to pad my hand and better the odds. Now I know that I may not have.

Not saying that Noah is anything but perfect and perfectly healthy...and will hopefully remain that way. I'm just noticing a pattern between my experience and yours....I hope we both are blessed with Goldens who beat the world record for Longest Lived Golden.


----------



## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> Great, here is someone that I will respect and listen to their opinion. They just didn't stand by, they took action.


I'm really looking forward to hearing what Gap View's justification is for not doing clearances. Maybe there will be a really great reason that will convince all of us zealots and we'll see that we have been doing all sorts of unneccesary and expensive stuff before mating two dogs.


----------



## DCPakaMOM

bigds01 said:


> Just admit that you are a jealous competitor who should be so fortunate as to have a 1/4 of his business and happy clients.


 
Inching back up on my soapbox - said I wasn't going to get back into this thread - but then ....

PG - a jealous competitor? That is so funny! 

Anyone who breeds for the LOVE OF THE BREED would never ever be a jealous competitor of a person who breeds many litters back to back to back. Thank goodness we don't have 1/4 of his business!! 

If you breed to improve the breed, for the love of the breed - you are not breeding numerous of litters a year. 

Yep, they are dogs, not children. I breed one litter spent well over $6000 between vet bills, socialization, proper whelping supplies & box, the breeding itself, the emergency c-section, toys, puppy bags for their going home (leash, collar, food, shampoo, etc) -- Then you want to add the costs of doing all the clearances on my bitch, her championship, her yearly eye exams, 8 week check at the vet school by a vet and a cardiologist to make sure those puppies were fine to go home, (yes I am paranoid about their health) The two weeks of vacation I took from work to make sure those first two weeks were carefully monitored, .... Did I make money - heck no. 

Do I want to know where my puppies are and what they are doing - you are dang straight I do. I turned down several buyers because of the same mentality that they wanted their puppy and that is it. I brought those puppies into this world and asked that each buyer call me for any problem, call me if things change in their lives and they cannot keep the dog or take care if him/her and I will take him - even if they are 16 or whatever. 

It's just what I believe is right. There are too many puppies/dogs in shelters to not give a crap what happens to all of those hundreds of puppies you bring into this world. So - someone would be jealous of not having 1/4 of their business -- jealous hardly. I personally couldn't sleep at night.


----------



## bigds01

Pointgold said:


> I'm really looking forward to hearing what Gap View's justification is for not doing clearances. Maybe there will be a really great reason that will convince all of us zealots and we'll see that we have been doing all sorts of unneccesary and expensive stuff before mating two dogs.



Come to think of it, I am wondering what one does all day to have 11k posts? That is a good amount of time.


----------



## tippykayak

bigds01 said:


> Come to think of it, I am wondering what one does all day to have 11k posts? That is a good amount of time.


So you know you're wrong about the argument, and you're resorting to personal attacks? I think you've just proved your opposition correct.


----------



## NuttinButGoldens

Now thats just silly



bigds01 said:


> Come to think of it, I am wondering what one does all day to have 11k posts? That is a good amount of time.


----------



## Pointgold

bigds01 said:


> Come to think of it, I am wondering what one does all day to have 11k posts? That is a good amount of time.


Golly. I think Big D___S___01 must have a crush on me :heartbeat. I'm so flattered that he's chosen _me _to be the object of his wonderment.

It would appear, though, that the Breeder of the Year never got back to Ambika, who earned the respect of bigds01 by manning up and asking him why he doesn't do the clearances that he claims to. Surprise.


----------



## AmbikaGR

bigds01 said:


> Come to think of it, I am wondering what one does all day to have 11k posts? That is a good amount of time.


It appears she spends a great deal of her time trying to educate potential puppy buyers about irresponsible breeders. 





Pointgold said:


> It would appear, though, that the Breeder of the Year never got back to Ambika, who earned the respect of bigds01 by manning up and asking him why he doesn't do the clearances that he claims to. Surprise.


 
Now, now let's not jump to conclusions. It has only been two days and we all know how busy he must be! I am sure once he is done he will get back to me and my questions. But to make sure he did get my message I will try again in the A.M.


----------



## Lucky's mom

I believe that to hound a breeder on clearances isn't appropriate. _Most_ Goldens sold in the U.S don't have clearances done on the parents. And most breeders are anomynous. Most Goldens sold in the U.S don't come from estabished websites and from breeders that do _some_ very important things right. I tend to see what they do right...as I come from the what I believe is the majority of puppy buyers...the buyers who bought from breeders who don't do much of anything right.

Lucky's breeder can't be emailed, the name can't be brought up, her reputation can't be impuned because....she's not anywhere to be found like MOST breeders.

So I am not judgemental on this because compared to what IS out there, this is probably not a "bad" breeder.

I think advocating spotless clearances is fine...but personally hounding, emailing and trashing specific breeders is not something I agree with.


----------



## Ljilly28

After having a pup with elbow dysplasia and many healthy goldens too- the difference in anguish and expense is hard to describe. I hope for every pup born, that his or her breeders take every feasible precaution before letting Mother Nature take over.


----------



## AmbikaGR

Lucky's mom said:


> I think advocating spotless clearances is fine...but personally hounding, emailing and trashing specific breeders is not something I agree with.


 
I would agree with you in most cases, however this is a breeder who on his own personal website states why clearances should be done. In fact they state under their "Breeding Good Genetics" page that they clear their sires and dams hearts and hips for OFA certification and also have their eyes checked by board certified ophthalmologists and cleared by CERF. Well according to the OFA database this is not true and according to CERF's database they only check the eyes of their breeding stock once and not yearly which is required for a CERF clearance to be valid.
So I see absolutley nothing wrong with asking them to explain this contridiction. If you want to call this "hounding" or "trashing" then so be it, I call it asking for the truth.


----------



## arcane

bigds01 said:


> Come to think of it, I am wondering what one does all day to have 11k posts? That is a good amount of time.


I have a feeling this thread is another case of [email protected]*# disturbing, We have those pop up here from time to time....very juvenile in my opinion!


----------



## Pointgold

arcane said:


> I have a feeling this thread is another case of [email protected]*# disturbing, We have those pop up here from time to time....very juvenile in my opinion!


 
It's amusing, though, right, that bigds01 only comes to Gap View threads and targets my posts? I think he wants me... :bowrofl:


----------



## hotel4dogs

but does he have his clearances????? or has he been diagnosed with ED???

(elbows people, elbows....)



Pointgold said:


> It's amusing, though, right, that bigds01 only comes to Gap View threads and targets my posts? I think he wants me... :bowrofl:


----------



## AmbikaGR

I got a message that Mr.Liskey is away till the middle of next week. It was stated that many of Mr.Liskey's dogs are PennHip certified rather than OFA. For the other questions I would need to ask Mr. Liskey about them.


----------



## Pointgold

AmbikaGR said:


> I got a message that Mr.Liskey is away till the middle of next week. It was stated that many of Mr.Liskey's dogs are PennHip certified rather than OFA. For the other questions I would need to ask Mr. Liskey about them.


 
It might, then, behoove him to do a cut n paste about PennHip, rather than OFA, and post that to his website. Interesting that a GRF member saw OFA prelims... I don't know anyone who does OFA Prelims and then PennHip certs rather than following through with OFA, _especially _when the OFA prelims are supposedly Excellent. Nowhere is PennHip mentioned. His new, updated website ONLY has links to OFA, SAS, AKC, and CERF. In addition, of course, to having GRCA and SVKC (Shenandoah Valley Kennel Club, or Shenandoah Valley Knife Club?) in his contracts as well as on his business card.


----------



## Lucky's mom

AmbikaGR said:


> So I see absolutley nothing wrong with asking them to explain this contridiction. If you want to call this "hounding" or "trashing" then so be it, I call it asking for the truth.


Well I'm with you...and totally for truth in advertising. I guess I should read the thread a little better instead of scanning.


----------



## luv_my_goldens

*Gap View is very credible.*

You made a wise decision with Gap View. I have two Goldens from Dave Liskey at Gap View and they are great. Both are healthy, have great temperments, are very smart, and very athletic (They do agility, love swimming, hiking, and of course playing fetch). They are from Cinnemon (Dam) and Biscuit (Sire). Dave showed me all their certifications OFA, CERF, etc. Just ask and he will pull a binder out for each dog and show you everthing including their pedigrees. Infact, he's one of the only breeders I know that has his pedigrees on his website. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## ragtym

Really - all his dogs have their certifications?

These are the sires of his "Current Litters"

Kirby - OFA hips, OFA heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), no verifiable CERF, no verifiable Elbow clearance

Bronson - OFA Hips, OFA heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), last verifiable CERF done in 2007, no verifiable Elbow clearance

Clyde - No verifiable hip clearance, OFA heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), last verifiable CERF done in 2006, no verifiable Elbow clearance

Titan - No identifying info on site. If it is this dog - GAP VIEW'S SIR KING TITAN - No verifiable OFA Hips, OFA Heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), no verifiable CERF clearance , no verifiable Elbow clearance 

Dancer - OFA Hips, OFA heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), last verifiable CERF done in 2006, no verifiable Elbow clearance

The Dams of the "Current Litters":

Farrah - OFA hips, OFA heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), no verifiable CERF, no verifiable Elbow clearance

Hattie - OFA Hips, OFA heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), last verifiable CERF done in 2007, no verifiable Elbow clearance

Crystal - OFA Hips, OFA heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), no verifiable CERF, no verifiable Elbow clearance

Asia - no identifying information on the site. If it is this dog - GAP VIEW'S ASIAN EMPRESS - No verifiable OFA Hips, OFA Heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), last verifiable CERF in 2007 , no verifiable Elbow clearance 

Faith - No verifiable OFA Hips, OFA Heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), no verifiable CERF, no verifiable Elbow clearance 

So no, his dogs do NOT have all their clearances, not by a longshot.

If they have Prelims, they DO NOT have an OFA clearance. Clearances don't happen until after 2 years of age and a number is issued (a number that starts with the letters GR-and a set of numbers and letters following). If his dogs are Penn-hipped, the most recent dogs should be showing up in the OFA database since those records are now being added to the OFA database.


----------



## Pointgold

luv_my_goldens said:


> You made a wise decision with Gap View. I have two Goldens from Dave Liskey at Gap View and they are great. Both are healthy, have great temperments, are very smart, and very athletic (They do agility, love swimming, hiking, and of course playing fetch). They are from Cinnemon (Dam) and Biscuit (Sire). Dave showed me all their certifications OFA, CERF, etc. Just ask and he will pull a binder out for each dog and show you everthing including their pedigrees. Infact, he's one of the only breeders I know that has his pedigrees on his website.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Seriously? Then he must be the ONLY breeder you know.


----------



## luv_my_goldens

ragtym said:


> Really - all his dogs have their certifications?
> 
> These are the sires of his "Current Litters"
> 
> Kirby - OFA hips, OFA heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), no verifiable CERF, no verifiable Elbow clearance
> 
> Bronson - OFA Hips, OFA heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), last verifiable CERF done in 2007, no verifiable Elbow clearance
> 
> Clyde - No verifiable hip clearance, OFA heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), last verifiable CERF done in 2006, no verifiable Elbow clearance
> 
> Titan - No identifying info on site. If it is this dog - GAP VIEW'S SIR KING TITAN - No verifiable OFA Hips, OFA Heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), no verifiable CERF clearance , no verifiable Elbow clearance
> 
> Dancer - OFA Hips, OFA heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), last verifiable CERF done in 2006, no verifiable Elbow clearance
> 
> The Dams of the "Current Litters":
> 
> Farrah - OFA hips, OFA heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), no verifiable CERF, no verifiable Elbow clearance
> 
> Hattie - OFA Hips, OFA heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), last verifiable CERF done in 2007, no verifiable Elbow clearance
> 
> Crystal - OFA Hips, OFA heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), no verifiable CERF, no verifiable Elbow clearance
> 
> Asia - no identifying information on the site. If it is this dog - GAP VIEW'S ASIAN EMPRESS - No verifiable OFA Hips, OFA Heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), last verifiable CERF in 2007 , no verifiable Elbow clearance
> 
> Faith - No verifiable OFA Hips, OFA Heart (by practictioner, not cardiologist), no verifiable CERF, no verifiable Elbow clearance
> 
> So no, his dogs do NOT have all their clearances, not by a longshot.
> 
> If they have Prelims, they DO NOT have an OFA clearance. Clearances don't happen until after 2 years of age and a number is issued (a number that starts with the letters GR-and a set of numbers and letters following). If his dogs are Penn-hipped, the most recent dogs should be showing up in the OFA database since those records are now being added to the OFA database.


I'm not an expert on certifications, but you could go visit the kennel if you say you're not able to find the certifications listed for the above dogs. Dave should be able to show them to you. He has folders with all their certifications. I'm not familiar at all with Penn-hipped. I'll have to look that up an read about it. I'm assuming it's a new registration system?


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## luv_my_goldens

Pointgold said:


> Seriously? Then he must be the ONLY breeder you know.


Actually, no. I work with a lady who showed and bred German Shepherds for years and is still very active with the breed. She had several champions in fact. And I did my research and visited several breeders before I purchased my dogs from Gap View. I also got recommendations and asked lots of questions to everyone I met that had a dog from Gap View. He was the best one I found in my area and I have been very happy with my two dogs. It all depends on what you're looking for in a dog as far as temperment, looks, athleticism, and certifications. I was not looking for a dog to show, just a family pet that I could do obedience, agility, and that would like to hike and swim. I'm sure however, that if I had wanted to I could have shown my two dogs. I had them neutered as any good dog owner should and they are happy/healthy boys. 

I did find some very poor breeders in the area. And puppy stores/mills I'd never shop at.

Thanks for asking in such a kind way.


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## LibertyME

This absolutely drives me batty!
Family pets are JUST AS DESERVING of good health & proper conformation as any show dog!
Any half way decent golden can enjoy Obed and Agility - I dare say that most of them have the desire to learn and work with a handler...but one with poor conformation will not do it for very long.



luv_my_goldens said:


> I was not looking for a dog to show, just a family pet that I could do obedience, agility, and that would like to hike and swim. I'm sure however, that if I had wanted to I could have shown my two dogs. I had them neutered as any good dog owner should and they are happy/healthy boys.


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## Pointgold

luv_my_goldens said:


> Actually, no. I work with a lady who showed and bred German Shepherds for years and is still very active with the breed. She had several champions in fact. And I did my research and visited several breeders before I purchased my dogs from Gap View. I also got recommendations and asked lots of questions to everyone I met that had a dog from Gap View. He was the best one I found in my area and I have been very happy with my two dogs. It all depends on what you're looking for in a dog as far as temperment, looks, athleticism, and certifications. I was not looking for a dog to show, just a family pet that I could do obedience, agility, and that would like to hike and swim. I'm sure however, that if I had wanted to I could have shown my two dogs. I had them neutered as any good dog owner should and they are happy/healthy boys.
> 
> I did find some very poor breeders in the area. And puppy stores/mills I'd never shop at.
> 
> Thanks for asking in such a kind way.


Your statment that Gap View is the only breeder you know that posts pedigrees on their web site is what I was referring to. There are hundreds who do. GOOD ones. Who actually DO all clearances. And having clearances is not, nor should it be, exclusive to "show dogs". A family pet crippled with hip or elbow dysplasia, or losing his eyesight (or even the eye) to PU, or even keeling over dead while playing in the yard with the kids should not be something that ANY pet owner should have to deal with.


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## tippykayak

luv_my_goldens said:


> You made a wise decision with Gap View. I have two Goldens from Dave Liskey at Gap View and they are great. Both are healthy, have great temperments, are very smart, and very athletic (They do agility, love swimming, hiking, and of course playing fetch). They are from Cinnemon (Dam) and Biscuit (Sire). Dave showed me all their certifications OFA, CERF, etc. Just ask and he will pull a binder out for each dog and show you everthing including their pedigrees. Infact, he's one of the only breeders I know that has his pedigrees on his website.
> 
> Hope this helps.


You said in another post that he sends the certs home with you. So you should have copies of all the OFA, CERF, and heart documents for your dog's pedigree, right?


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## RabidPineappler

I was Googleing Gap View to find their website and I know that I'm late to this conversation, but I feel that I can't let this go without being said:

They are a backyard breeder with no long term investment in their dogs. My parents bought a golden from them about 9 years ago. She is horribly overweight (she's fed Purina for god's sake), untrained, and is not exercised or mentally stimulated. Knowing this, or not bothering to check, Gap View sold my parents another Golden 3 years ago. The puppy contract specifies that dogs must be kept in shape to prevent hip dysplasia; at the very least my parents never should have been sold another dog since it is obvious they could not care for the one they already own. Other red flags include the fact that the 3 year old Golden is unspayed (my parents are idiots) and this is not a violation of the contract. Also, there is no provision for guaranteeing a dog for life like any reputable breeder would do.

I've met Dave Liskey and I really liked him; he was a nice guy. But that doesn't make him a good breeder. Just because he's the best in rural VA doesn't mean he's good.


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## Shalva

RabidPineappler said:


> I've met Dave Liskey and I really liked him; he was a nice guy. But that doesn't make him a good breeder. Just because he's the best in rural VA doesn't mean he's good.


I know this is an old thread but this is very important... and a really good point... I know nothing about Dave Liskey or Gap view BUT 

A backyard breed... a puppymill owner... they can absolutely be nice people. I think this is why so many of the one hit wonders that come here to defend the breeders get so defensive... They probably are very nice people. However that does not make them good breeders.... 

I remember years ago I was breeding my first FCR litter and I was a nervous wreck... I knew of this woman who belonged to another forum (not in existence anymore) but she owned a commercial breeding facility, she was eventually suspended by the akc for paperwork issues... BUT she was very nice.... and whenever I had a question she answered in nicely and completely and with all the information I needed. I was one of the few people who would actually talk to her... most of the folks just despised her... 

Now did I agree with how she made her living absolutely not... but was she a nice person to me? yeah she was .... 

As with any groups of people you will have good and bad... the reality is that commercial breeders, are in the business of sales... they have to be nice... backyard breeders probably truly love their dogs although are misguided... 

But this is not about a popularity contest... it is not about who is or isn't nice... it is about finding a puppy with the best chance of having a long, healthy, pain free life.... and that has very little to do with nice. 

just my two cents 
s


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## DNL2448

RabidPineappler said:


> (my parents are idiots)


Wow, okay. My parents are not stellar pet owners, but I would never disrespect them on a public forum like this. Sorry, this just hit me wrong today. :no:

The older generation may not understand the nuances of pet ownership that has surfaced in the last couple decades.


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