# Schedule of Points



## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

I'm curious, but has the AKC always had a different schedule of points depending on where you're showing? Its a concept that really doesn't make a lot of sense to me, nor does it seem fair that, for example, a flatcoat doesn't have to beat nearly as many dogs as a golden does to get their major (or Ch). I understand that for a breed as popular as the golden, its easier to find a show with higher enteries, but it seems to me that they are suggesting that the quality is sacrificed for the quantity, so therefore you need to beat more dogs to get the same result. In Canada, it doesn't matter whether you're showing in Ottawa or Vancouver, or whether you're showing Goldens or Pulis, at the breed level, the number of points you get for beating so many dogs is the same. And then, there is a separate "schedule" for the group level, so a Group 1 would earn you so many points (based on how many breeds are competing). Same with Group 2, 3 or 4, to a maximum of 5 points. Often winning breed with a golden would get you your 5 points, of course, where another less popular breed might have to place in the group to get their points, but you still have to "beat" a set number of dogs that doesn't change from one region to the next, or one breed to the next. 

Do I understand this correctly? I kinda feel that it unfairly signals out people that show a more "popular" breed and asks more of them and their dogs than that of a more rare breed. I'm kinda scratching my head here. BJ


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

yep, you're right. It's hard to find majors in the US...add in the politics and it can be discouraging for some. AKC changes the point schedule every May - the new one comes out in March and is effective May 1st. I am very interested to see what they do for numbers. With the economy the way it is I'm not sure that there will be a lot of people showing dogs - if the numbers for majors stay high it'll become harder and harder to build majors...
I liked the point system in Canada, you didn't need a cheat sheet to count points.
Erica


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Well they make the points so there are the same number of majors available each year for each breed (that is, a certain % of shows per year is a major for each breed). Otherwise EVERY golden retriever would be a champion because you could rustle up four of your friends and have a major at EVERY SHOW. Sure, rare breeds can do this too -- and they do -- but the difference is, there are probably 50 committed show people with goldens in Florida but only one with Pulis. 
AKC makes the point schedule based on popularity in each region combined with the % of majors in the region.
This makes it just as difficult to get a major in a golden than in a curly-coated retriever. The unfairness comes because instead of just having to beat four other curly-coats for the major, you have to beat 24 goldens for the same number of points. 
What I don't get is the disparity between regions. In Florida it is 25 dogs for 3 points but in New England it is FIFTEEN dogs for a 3-pt major? Don't tell me goldens are that much more popular in Florida than in New England. The Florida region gets punished for holding the huge January cluster where everyone from up north comes down and we have majors for 13 days straight. That skews the % of major shows per year, but it's not our dogs showing and it's not us winning them! For the rest of the year we have our two specialties and then a ton of one-point shows.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

MurphyTeller said:


> yep, you're right. It's hard to find majors in the US...add in the politics and it can be discouraging for some. AKC changes the point schedule every May - the new one comes out in March and is effective May 1st. I am very interested to see what they do for numbers. With the economy the way it is I'm not sure that there will be a lot of people showing dogs - if the numbers for majors stay high it'll become harder and harder to build majors...
> I liked the point system in Canada, you didn't need a cheat sheet to count points.
> Erica


Thanks for the explanation. I find it so very confusing, and dont really see the fairness in it. Our system is certainly more straightforward. I guess it seems strange to me that they even take sex into account. That, for example a dog beats 5 other dogs and gets 2 points but for a bitch, they have to beat 7 dogs to get 2 points. It would make it easier that its published in the premium list. Would that not make it a lot easier for a "rare" breed to attain their Ch, than it would for a popular breed? For "rare" breeds here, you basically have to place at the group level or you dont get the points. A friend of mine ran into that with her GP. I'm not saying the rules are stupid, but for once I like our way better. LOL. I do think your way of using a draw method for tracking tests is much better than ours though . LOL. 

But thank you for the explanation. I guess everyone needs majors... BJ


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

I find it frustrating at times that the Golden ring is so hard to compete and win in. Then there are some breeds (here like a BC) where my friend who breeds BCs can easily build majors with her own kennel. I know people who can literally finish a dog in a couple of shows because they are a breeder for a breed that doesn't require a lot of dogs or bitches for majors or they know a breeder they can work with.

Then there are some breeds that have little dogs or bitches required for a major, but there are almost no dogs competing in the area. This is going to happen with the Smooth Collie bitch that I will show. Sure, she is nice and will probably win, but it won't mean anything unless there are actually dogs present.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

goldengirls550 said:


> Then there are some breeds that have little dogs or bitches required for a major, but there are almost no dogs competing in the area. This is going to happen with the Smooth Collie bitch that I will show. Sure, she is nice and will probably win, but it won't mean anything unless there are actually dogs present.


Okay, another question, but what about at the group level? How is that handled? Do you not get points for winning (or placing) at the group level? I wonder that for that Collie, for example, if no others show up, but you win the group with her... you've inadvertantly beat all the dogs of the other breeds, but you dont get points for that? Now I'm back to being confused again. LOL. BJ


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Kohanagold said:


> Okay, another question, but what about at the group level? How is that handled? Do you not get points for winning (or placing) at the group level? I wonder that for that Collie, for example, if no others show up, but you win the group with her... you've inadvertantly beat all the dogs of the other breeds, but you dont get points for that? Now I'm back to being confused again. LOL. BJ


No points at the group level in the AKC. Wins and placements at the group level in goldens win points towards the SDHF though. If the dog (or bitch) goes BOB over specials they do get to count the specials in their total.

The point about the border collies is that a major (in New England) is 4 dogs or 5 bitches. Its possible (and it happens a lot - though I'm not singling out border collies - it was just used in an example above) for a breeder to enter four of her (or his) own dogs, present the three she doesn't want to win badly and the dog that needs a major gets one...I know that happens in Canada too - someone entering 5-6 dogs that they own and creating their own points...That happens in goldens too - there is a handler that routinely promises major wins in puerto rico, flies them down, finishes them and flies them back...

Erica


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

MurphyTeller said:


> No points at the group level in the AKC. Wins and placements at the group level in goldens win points towards the SDHF though. If the dog (or bitch) goes BOB over specials they do get to count the specials in their total.
> 
> The point about the border collies is that a major (in New England) is 4 dogs or 5 bitches. Its possible (and it happens a lot - though I'm not singling out border collies - it was just used in an example above) for a breeder to enter four of her (or his) own dogs, present the three she doesn't want to win badly and the dog that needs a major gets one...I know that happens in Canada too - someone entering 5-6 dogs that they own and creating their own points...That happens in goldens too - there is a handler that routinely promises major wins in puerto rico, flies them down, finishes them and flies them back...
> 
> Erica


 
Not exactly true... If you win the Group and any breed in that Group had a major, you would get that major. *ie If you were to get 2 points in the classes as WD (or WB) and you won the Group beating an Irish Setter and there was a 4 point major in Irish Setters, you'd get a 4 point major. If you got a 3 point major as WD (or WB) and there were a 5 point major in Labs and you won the Group, you'd get a 5 point major.
You have to WIN the Group and there has to have been a breed that had a major for you to get it. (No additional championship ship points are available for any other placement in the Group but 1st.)


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Not exactly true... If you win the Group and any breed in that Group had a major, you would get that major. *ie If you were to get 2 points in the classes as WD (or WB) and you won the Group beating an Irish Setter and there was a 4 point major in Irish Setters, you'd get a 4 point major. If you got a 3 point major as WD (or WB) and there were a 5 point major in Labs and you won the Group, you'd get a 5 point major.
> You have to WIN the Group and there has to have been a breed that had a major for you to get it. (No additional championship ship points are available for any other placement in the Group but 1st.)


Right! I always forget about that rule.
E


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Kohanagold said:


> Okay, another question, but what about at the group level? How is that handled? Do you not get points for winning (or placing) at the group level? I wonder that for that Collie, for example, if no others show up, but you win the group with her... you've inadvertantly beat all the dogs of the other breeds, but you dont get points for that? Now I'm back to being confused again. LOL. BJ


This is one of the reasons that I prefer specialty shows. You almost always find a major, and generally, the competition is better - more quality dogs. And a lot of fun, too! 

As for the Smooth Collie, I am not sure where you are located, but you'll find more majors on the East Coast - there seems to be more of them. We finished my Smooth by earning his singles here and his majors East.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

MurphyTeller said:


> Right! I always forget about that rule.
> E


 
HAHAHAHAHA! Pretty easy to forget when it so rarely happens! We can dream, though... 
The best I've ever done in Groups from the Classes have been 2nds - Lyric, Jib, Bond and Zoom all got Group II's from the classes. It would be _really _nice if placements were able to count the dogs they've beaten for majors...


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> HAHAHAHAHA! Pretty easy to forget when it so rarely happens! We can dream, though...
> The best I've ever done in Groups from the Classes have been 2nds - Lyric, Jib, Bond and Zoom all got Group II's from the classes. It would be _really _nice if placements were able to count the dogs they've beaten for majors...


Speaking of point schedules...shouldn't the 2009 schedule be out soon? I think I remember seeing it at the end of February last year...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

MurphyTeller said:


> Speaking of point schedules...shouldn't the 2009 schedule be out soon? I think I remember seeing it at the end of February last year...


 
Nope - not til May.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Not exactly true... If you win the Group and any breed in that Group had a major, you would get that major. *ie If you were to get 2 points in the classes as WD (or WB) and you won the Group beating an Irish Setter and there was a 4 point major in Irish Setters, you'd get a 4 point major. If you got a 3 point major as WD (or WB) and there were a 5 point major in Labs and you won the Group, you'd get a 5 point major.
> You have to WIN the Group and there has to have been a breed that had a major for you to get it. (No additional championship ship points are available for any other placement in the Group but 1st.)


Wow... you're way's even more confusing than I thought! LOL Okay, so if you win the group from the classes with a dog, you would have to go through all the breeds in that group and find which breed had the most points up for grabs, and then that would be your points as well? 

As for creating your own points... it does happen here, with breeds that aren't as common in the show ring. It doesn't always pan out for goldens though, because there is usually enough of them entered that could potentially win and "steal" your bonus points . But for some breeds, it does end up working like that (if you have enough dogs to pool from). BJ


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Nope - not til May.


I know it takes effect in May - but they publish it in advance...thought I saw it in February last year.
E


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

<<Wow... you're way's even more confusing than I thought! LOL Okay, so if you win the group from the classes with a dog, you would have to go through all the breeds in that group and find which breed had the most points up for grabs, and then that would be your points as well?>>

Yep, you've got it -- but remember, group placements -- much less wins -- from the classes in goldens are extremely rare in the US. I get the feeling it's a lot more common in Canada.
--Anney


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

K9-Design;728483
Yep said:


> I dont think its all that common here either... not really, especially a group win. Usually breed goes to a special, from what I've seen. But it *could* happen... in theory anyhow. I think I've actually only heard of it happening to one dog, but that really doesn't mean much. The dog just hadn't been shown prior, but certainly deserved to win. But also, here, if you dont have the competition in your breed but place at the group level, you can still get points there (up to 5 per show).
> 
> So then is it conceivable that for one of the rare breeds that the dog could be a SDHF dog, but not have its Ch? I wonder, because if they win their breed by default and then consistantly take a group 2, they'd still not get the points? Obviously not going to happen in the golden ring, but I think that would look kinda odd to have a SDHF dog without a CH.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> This is one of the reasons that I prefer specialty shows. You almost always find a major, and generally, the competition is better - more quality dogs. And a lot of fun, too!
> 
> As for the Smooth Collie, I am not sure where you are located, but you'll find more majors on the East Coast - there seems to be more of them. We finished my Smooth by earning his singles here and his majors East.


Well, I'm still in school so it's just gonna be luck if we get the majors. Or we could be bad and ask her breeder to come down and bring some dogs or bitches.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Kohanagold said:


> So then is it conceivable that for one of the rare breeds that the dog could be a SDHF dog, but not have its Ch? I wonder, because if they win their breed by default and then consistantly take a group 2, they'd still not get the points? Obviously not going to happen in the golden ring, but I think that would look kinda odd to have a SDHF dog without a CH.


SDHF (like OS/OD) is a GRCA title not an AKC title so it doesn't apply to rare breeds - though individual breed clubs might have something that is similar. 

I suppose it is theoretically possible for a golden without a CH to earn his SDHF before his CH - but I don't think it's ever been done - or likely to be done...Here's the point schedule...They need 25 points - a BIS for example would earn them 15 points...

_GRCA Titles GRCA offers several forms of recognition for Golden Retrievers with exceptional accomplishments. Goldens meeting these requirements are recognized in the Golden Retriever News and GRCA Yearbook._

*GRCA Show Dog of Hall of Fame *

_Any Golden Retriever who earns 25 or more points based on the following schedule will be entered in the GRCA Show Dog Hall of Fame._​_Best in Show_
_(plus 5 pt for Group 1st)_
_10_​_Sporting Group 1st_
_5_​_Sporting Group 2nd_
_3_​_Sporting Group 3rd_
_1_​_Sporting Group 4th_
_½_​_National Specialty Best of Breed_
_5_​_Regional Specialty Best of Breed*_
_3_​_Independent Specialty Best of Breed*_
_1_​_* not held in conjunction with an all-breed show_​


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Kohanagold said:


> I dont think its all that common here either... not really, especially a group win. Usually breed goes to a special, from what I've seen. But it *could* happen... in theory anyhow. I think I've actually only heard of it happening to one dog, but that really doesn't mean much. The dog just hadn't been shown prior, but certainly deserved to win. But also, here, if you dont have the competition in your breed but place at the group level, you can still get points there (up to 5 per show).
> 
> So then is it conceivable that for one of the rare breeds that the dog could be a SDHF dog, but not have its Ch? I wonder, because if they win their breed by default and then consistantly take a group 2, they'd still not get the points? Obviously not going to happen in the golden ring, but I think that would look kinda odd to have a SDHF dog without a CH.


First, some breeds don't even have SDHF . I believe SDHF is exclusive to Golden Retrievers. Each breed has a different system, additionally, for whatever their equivelent of SDHF is.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

HAHAHA! Erica beat me to it!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

K9-Design said:


> The Florida region gets punished for holding the huge January cluster where everyone from up north comes down and we have majors for 13 days straight. That skews the % of major shows per year, but it's not our dogs showing and it's not us winning them! For the rest of the year we have our two specialties and then a ton of one-point shows.


And this where the AKC system is really faulted. This will get very is confusing from this point and I will apologize now for that.
You see the AKC takes the prior years entries in each region for Goldens and calculates how many that the magic number is for a major. They have a set percentage of shows that they want to be majors in each breed. Let's for arguement that number is 12%. They will then see how many entries it would have taken last year to make 12% of the shows majors. And presto chango you have the new number for how many ogs it takes to make a major. They do the same thing, usuing different percentages obviously, for each point level (1-5). So as Anney points out her region has this huge cluster of shows that the folks up north travle down for each year thar throws the other 50 weeks of the year off tilt. These 13 shows probably account for about 25% or more of the majors in that region. I guess that is the price you pay for having great weather year round and that makes me feel better living up North, NOT!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I don't know if it still holds true, but I know that you could have your Specialty exempted, in order to not raise the point schedule in the division held. My Borzoi friend, who is an AKC judge, was always saying that "the Golden people are crazy not to do it!" 

I don't know if it can be done now or not.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I don't know if it still holds true, but I know that you could have your Specialty exempted, in order to not raise the point schedule in the division held. My Borzoi friend, who is an AKC judge, was always saying that "the Golden people are crazy not to do it!"
> 
> I don't know if it can be done now or not.


So, if you exempt all your specialities, it would lower the number of dogs you need to have to make your major? Would there be a down side to something like that? BJ


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I don't know if it still holds true, but I know that you could have your Specialty exempted, in order to not raise the point schedule in the division held. My Borzoi friend, who is an AKC judge, was always saying that "the Golden people are crazy not to do it!"
> 
> I don't know if it can be done now or not.


I didn't think about that...the specialty was in our region last year - so we should see an effect on the numbers for our majors?
Erica


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