# I know, it was only a matter of time



## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

this is a real shame.. neither I or anyone else can make this decision for you.. one thing I would do if I kept him, is get a good liability policy if you don't have one.. 
If it were me, I would have to take him back.. and I know that would be tough, but it sounds like you have really tried... nobody should second guess you on whatever decison you make..


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## heidi_pooh (Feb 9, 2006)

DO NOT PUT HIM DOWN!!!!!!!!!
If you can't keep him, try to find someone to take him yourself. This way you can explain to them how the dog reacts and why you can't keep him. Out there somewhere is someone that will look after him and have the time and patience to train him. 
If you choose to keep him, try slowly getting him used to a muzzle. Even a head collar would probably help with getting him used to it. Do not let him near children. If you see kids while you are walking, cross the street or go the other way.


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## davebeech (Feb 11, 2006)

ooh that's a tough one, I think I'd go for the muzzle option first and see how he goes on with his training, but I'm a big softee when it comes to them sort of decisions. My brother had to muzzle his border collie when he was younger and he turned out just fine, I'd have had to see him myself do it, was it real nasty aggresion ??


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

sashac: what have you done so far to help him overcome the aggression? Have you identified his triggers? Have you worked with a behaviorist? 

I'd sure explore my options, and get several expert opinions before making any decisions. 

Even if you did decide to re-home him, would the next owner be as diligent as you've been? Would they continue to work with him, or would they immediately put him down at the first sign of aggression even if he was getting better? 

Those are the kinds of thoughts that went through our minds when we decided to keep Jenna last year after she kept attacking Brandy. We've worked very hard with her, and she's doing beautifully now. 

BUT we've never had to deal with dog-on-human aggression.


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

Well, I have been working with an animal behaviorist but it's mainly been general obedience training. She seems to think that his aggression is limited to annoying puppies who don't act in a way that older dogs like, and her suggestion has been to limit that type of exposure. But clearly it's more than that. She doesn't think he's a "dominant" dog either, just insecure. Maybe that's true. But I don't feel like I'm getting all I can be from her and have started to look for another behaviorist in the area. 

His triggers are generally, food and toys (will growl and potentially attack other dogs if either are being threatened, and has growled at my husband on occassion when he has come near his bully stick or other treat). "little people" or anyone he thinks is a child is also a trigger - he actually growled at my best friend who is 4'11" with a high-pitched voice once; I think he thought she was a kid. He growls and barks when he hears the kids screaming in the pool across from our house. 

I've tried to do some sort of positive conditioning - taking him near a park and feeding him treats when he doesn't react to the kids' noises, or practicing taking his bowl away from him when he's eating, or hand-feeding etc, all to assert my position in the pack. I am not sure if this is doing anything for his aggression though. 

To be clear, I (probably selfishly) don't want to rehome him OR put him down, of course. I don't think that another person would work this way with him, and it would take them a long time to really understand how he is. He's really deceiving because deep down, he's just another goofy, lovable Golden whose tongue lolls out and who will do anything for a belly rub or a good cuddle. But I've been in these situations enough now to realize that there is this Mr Hyde character in him that scares the bejeezus out of me. That fear makes me watchful and anxious and careful, and even that hasn't been enough, apparently. Someone else isn't necessarily going to be any better at it. I guess I just don't know what the "right" thing to do is here, for example, I wouldn't put him down, but I'm sure there are a lot of other people out there who do think that's the normal course of action. 

davebeech: I'm not sure how to characterize this particular incident - it seemed violent and nasty and ugly and uncontrollable to me - that scary growl, a girl pinned on the sidewalk face up by a 90 pound dog, snarls, and flashing teeth. But I guess in the end, with only a superficial wound, maybe you wouldn't call it nasty? Either way, it was an awful experience and it is still reverberating in my head. It could have been really bad and it was just luck and grace that prevented real harm. 

Thank you for the suggestions about a muzzle - I wasn't sure what people felt about it, if it works, if it destroys the dog/human relationship, or what. If I keep him, I will try that for sure.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

well at least with you, you will keep the possibility of him injuring someone to a minimum.. how is your husband doing with this?
the idea of him injuring a child just would scare me to death.. 
really hard for me to imagine a golden like this.. I bet that dad and the little girl were fairly traumatized too..


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Food and bones are typical triggers. Even non-aggressive dogs will sometimes snarl and show their teeth if they think you're after their prized bone. 

He may have been teased/abused by children in the past. But I know that "Mr. Hyde" transformation because we've seen it in Jenna. One minute, she was sweet and wagging her tail, smiling. The next minute, she looked and sounded like Cujo! 

I want to share a couple more things with you. Jenna still does what we call her "big scary growl" and shows her teeth when she wants to get a bone away from Brandy. But we've discovered that now it's all for show. It's probably a learned behavior that won't ever totally go away. When we call her bluff, she immediately backs down. 

Second, she used to look and sound menacing around some of the neighborhood dogs. But after she became more comfortable with us, she started wimpering if even a puppy started sniffing around her. She was scared! 

And one more thought (sorry this is so long) but have you had his thyroid levels tested? Even a low normal can result in aggression with a golden. With Jenna, one month on medication and we had a completely different dog. We've still had to do constant work with her, but until we got the thyroid levels under control, she wasn't mentally able to focus on improving her behavior.

It's not uncommon for a golden's thyroid levels to go out of whack -- especially one that's approching its senior years.


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## gold'nchocolate (May 31, 2005)

Have you seen the book "Click to Calm--Healing the Aggressive Dog" by Emma Parsons? Her GR was starting to show signs of aggression when she hired a behaviorist who, when she first met him, *hung* her dog by his prong collar, with out warning and without permission  . After that, her dog's aggression escalated and she wrote her book, detailing the techniques that she used to heal her dog of his aggression. He is no longer aggressive.
Cathy


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I feel for what you are going through. I really do. This is tough. And I think many people would choose many different routes on this.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Brandy's Mom said:


> ...And one more thought (sorry this is so long) but have you had his thyroid levels tested? Even a low normal can result in aggression with a golden...
> ...It's not uncommon for a golden's thyroid levels to go out of whack -- especially one that's approaching its senior years.


Good call Brandy's Mom...

Just found this thread... 

Sashac, I believe any show of possessiveness around toys, food, etc is a strong sign there are dominance issues involved (except in the case of the low thyroid levels). The incident with the little girl could have also been dominance related (as in... he was protecting his property... that's you) or then again maybe was startled, hard to say since I wasn't there... in either case if he were intent on real harm he could have easily snap that little girl's arm in two in the wink of an eye... but he didn't. From everything I've recalled you mentioning, it really looks to me like a dominance issue.

Even though you've already done a great deal more than most dog owners would have bother with, I can't help but feel the answers lay in you gaining Charlie's respect as a true pack leader and not just a really nice pack member. However I'm thinking the methods you may have to employ to get this across may not meet your expectations for a satisfying relationship... I recall in another thread your mentioning of having the most 'perfect' Golden relationship from your childhood memories. Though I feel certain this memory is flawed, I'm sure it was a much different dog than Charlie could ever be. Therefore, rather than mention all the things I think you might have to change in your relationship with Charlie, I really feel the better (most workable) solution is to give Charlie back. Since I've never been able to give up any pet I've ever owned, I know its one of those things that's easy to say but almost impossible to do for a real animal lover (after all you did adopt a rescue... that says something about you right there). Its really a tough call... because I'm not there, I don't really know the dog, I don't really know your entire situation and background... there's so much I can't know from just some postings on a forum... but my 'gut' feeling says you should give him back to rescue before somebody really does get hurt, accidental or not. Sorry.


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## PeggyK (Apr 16, 2005)

I'm sure you'll make the right decision for you and Charlie. I know I would never feel comfortable with a dog who I could not trust around children. And I know you must feel anxious every time a situation arises. The thing that scares me is that things can happen in a split second. I know it is the hardest decision in the world and no one can make it for you-you are such a responsible dog owner that you will know, deep in your gut-what you need to do. And, like Greg said-a personal umbrella policy is something all dog owners should have. Ours is for $2,000,000 and is very reasonable. Good luck to both you and Charlie.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

gold'nchocolate said:


> Have you seen the book "Click to Calm--Healing the Aggressive Dog" by Emma Parsons? Her GR was starting to show signs of aggression when she hired a behaviorist who, when she first met him, *hung* her dog by his prong collar, with out warning and without permission  . After that, her dog's aggression escalated and she wrote her book, detailing the techniques that she used to heal her dog of his aggression. He is no longer aggressive.
> Cathy



Woohoo, another person recommending clicker books!  Another good one is "Mine!" by Jean Donaldson, it deals with food/object/owner/house guarding.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

Oh, you poor thing I looked at this earlier and speculating on things that happened, of course that is all they are. Charlie is a rescue, and it's sooo hard to say what he's been through, and what may have happened up until you brought him home. Sometimes genetics play a part in this as well, no early socialization within the window of time it is sopposed to take place, possible abuse, etc. My heart goes right out too you!!

My suggestion would have to be getting help for him, I've noticed you mentioned he is under a behaviorist for basically OB, well after today things escalated so he needs to go back and maybe between you and the behaviorist you can figure it all out and begin treatment. I don't see him as a vicious golden since he could have done far more damage then he done, but I do see him as an unstable golden at this point, and seriously in need of help. Personally that man should have heeded your warning, because now the bite has been thrown and that is another problem now on top of the others that need to be worked threw. I would keep him back from any and all stressers he has until you talk with your behaviorist on this. The main thing right now is too protect Charlie from ever feeling he would have to bite again. Sometimes certain things humans do set off a dog, especially if there not stable so something as simple as bringing in the hand slowly could have very well triggered this, among other things.

At this point I do believe Charlie can be helped! He may never be totally trustworthy around children, but many dogs out there today do not do well with children and they do fine by there responsible owners. If you do not have the funds to do this, I would look too the rescue for help or returning providing they would get him the help he needed. 

All dogs are potential biters, since all dogs have a threshold. You take them over that threshold and it can happen. I'm not fond of other kids wanting to pet my dog while out and about, infact I just turned one back the other day because they came running out asking if they could pet my dog....I flat out told them NO, since there dog I seen in the background off leash. I knew the minute I seen that the dog most likely would follow the little girl, and it if came out at Kode to fight that young girl would have been put right in the middle of it, I know my dog has been socialized and out and about, I didn't know what there dog has been put threw so I felt at that time protecting Kode is the most important thing.....you got to be careful out there that is for sure.

I wish you and Charlie the very best, and hope you can get help for him, and for you since these things effect the owners as well. A good behaviorist will be able to help you as well as Charlie.


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

Thanks for all your replies, it's been very helpful. I've been feeling so cr**py about this situation and Charlie can tell. This has already eaten at our relationship (sounds funny, like I'm talking about a boyfriend!!) - I can barely stand to walk him and have been lurking in dark corners of our complex hoping to avoid all people and dogs. 

I still don't know what to do. Part of me wants to give him back, but I don't think he can deal with another change in his old life. I'm just so scared of being responsible for a dog like this - living in San Francisco, after the highly publicized dog mauling case, it freaks me out. With that case, after the fact, everyone was saying "those dogs should've been put down a long time ago". Of course, it's easy to say that after the fact, but those dogs lives were littered with similar incidents like the ones Charlie's gotten into. What if I am one day in that position, with people saying "she should have put him down a long time ago, when he bit that child?" UGH! I know it sounds dramatic, but I can't help it! 

Anyway, for now, my husband (who has been extraordinarily supportive and helpful, considering that before Charlie, he never wanted a dog!) and I have been discussing how we can work with him - finding a new behaviorist, buying a muzzle for those times when we can't avoid others, being much, much stricter with him - no more overly extravagant cuddles and petting time, unnecessary treats, etc, only power walks with tight leash control, food at designated times only after we eat, etc etc. Things we've been doing, but are just going to step up a lot. 

Monomer - I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on things I can do to work with him other than what you've mentioned in the past. At this point, I don't need a "satisfying" relationship, I need a safe and trustworthy one. And you're right - I couldn't help but remember the time my "perfect" Golden bit my younger brother on his lip - 10 years later and he still have an awful scar. The difference was that was an isolated incident with her - she never showed any aggression to anything else - and my brother was always pulling her ears or her tail or poking her to incite her, and this time he chose to do it right as she was about to start eating her dinner which had been 5 hours delayed in coming because we were out. 

As far as thryoid, I did have his thyroid checked a month ago, after reading another post on this site. He's right at the threshold, not quite "low" yet. The vet suggested waiting before considering medication and I agreed. 

Finally, with this specific incident, I am not convinced that this was a dominance thing (although I agree I need to work on establishing myself as the pack leader, not just a nice leader). The girl was posing absolutely no threat and was an absolute model for how a child should approach and handle a dog. I really believe it was just because she went out of his line of sight by standing on his side that he freaked out, got scared and snapped. I think he is very scared of children - I remember one time we had our little cousins over and he was slathering, whining and growling simulataneously, and trembling. We put him in his crate. He is always sitting with his back against a wall, hates it when we touch his tail or backside, etc. He definitely has other dominance issues, but I think they are combined with a high level of insecurity. I need to get him to feel safe when I am around him. 

Thanks again for all of your advice and help.


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

Thanks for all your replies, it's been very helpful. I've been feeling so cr**py about this situation and Charlie can tell. This has already eaten at our relationship (sounds funny, like I'm talking about a boyfriend!!) - I can barely stand to walk him and have been lurking in dark corners of our complex hoping to avoid all people and dogs. 

I still don't know what to do. Part of me wants to give him back, but I don't think he can deal with another change in his old life. I'm just so scared of being responsible for a dog like this - living in San Francisco, after the highly publicized dog mauling case, it freaks me out. With that case, after the fact, everyone was saying "those dogs should've been put down a long time ago". Of course, it's easy to say that after the fact, but those dogs lives were littered with similar incidents like the ones Charlie's gotten into. What if I am one day in that position, with people saying "she should have put him down a long time ago, when he bit that child?" UGH! I know it sounds dramatic, but I can't help it! 

Anyway, for now, my husband (who has been extraordinarily supportive and helpful, considering that before Charlie, he never wanted a dog!) and I have been discussing how we can work with him - finding a new behaviorist, buying a muzzle for those times when we can't avoid others, being much, much stricter with him - no more overly extravagant cuddles and petting time, unnecessary treats, etc, only power walks with tight leash control, food at designated times only after we eat, etc etc. Things we've been doing, but are just going to step up a lot. 

Monomer - I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on things I can do to work with him other than what you've mentioned in the past. At this point, I don't need a "satisfying" relationship, I need a safe and trustworthy one. And you're right - I couldn't help but remember the time my "perfect" Golden bit my younger brother on his lip - 10 years later and he still have an awful scar. The difference was that was an isolated incident with her - she never showed any aggression to anything else - and my brother was always pulling her ears or her tail or poking her to incite her, and this time he chose to do it right as she was about to start eating her dinner which had been 5 hours delayed in coming because we were out. 

As far as thryoid, I did have his thyroid checked a month ago, after reading another post on this site. He's right at the threshold, not quite "low" yet. The vet suggested waiting before considering medication and I agreed. 

Finally, with this specific incident, I am not convinced that this was a dominance thing (although I agree I need to work on establishing myself as the pack leader, not just a nice leader). The girl was posing absolutely no threat and was an absolute model for how a child should approach and handle a dog. I really believe it was just because she went out of his line of sight by standing on his side that he freaked out, got scared and snapped. I think he is very scared of children - I remember one time we had our little cousins over and he was slathering, whining and growling simulataneously, and trembling. We put him in his crate. He is always sitting with his back against a wall, hates it when we touch his tail or backside, etc. He definitely has other dominance issues, but I think they are combined with a high level of insecurity. I need to get him to feel safe when I am around him. 

Thanks again for all of your advice and help.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Sashac -- Low "normal" thyroid is a trouble spot for goldens!!!! Jenna's vet also wanted us to wait because her levels were not in the low range, but I insisted on medication and I'm so glad that I did. Please re-consider!!!! I've talked with several behaviorists and they all agree this is a golden-thing. 

Also, have you considered sending him away to doggie bootcamp? Perhaps a few weeks of intensive training can give everyone the jump start you need.


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

Whoah! What is doggie boot camp?!?


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

There are training facilities that will actually take your dog for a week or longer to work on the trouble spots. After, you work with the trainers to learn how to move forward.

As for the thyroid, we put Jenna on the lowest dose possible of Solaxine. It was just enough to bring her up to mid-range normal. And enough to have a remarkable personality change.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

I wouldn't go with the boot camp thing, aggressiveness will never help aggressivness. Thats pretty much been proven, it will make the situation worse.

From what you describe SM, Charlie did show you the signs of being fearful of children, he should not have been put in that situation with a child. Makes no difference what you see on the outside like a wagging tail, there very well could be other signs you missed that are in the language of the dog. Just wagging tails do not always mean friendly. You have to remember something, he was on lead and he was put in a situation where he was stressed. The thing is don't put him close to things that stress him. This never would have happened if he would have been kept back from a stresser that you knew of. I don't mean this too sound bad either, I only mean it like the sign was there of a stressor in Charlie, ok!

Another thing too ponder on is dogs on lead especially if they have problems to begin with are more apt to act aggressively, anything you do on the other end of that leash can cause the reaction because they instantly pick up on it and will react. I'm gonna tell you what I think happened, ok.

First Charlie was put in a situation that was a stresser to him, he had shown signs to this in the past too you. The signs were there! Now Charlie is held on lead in a stress situation, the growl comes, you instantly tighten up on lead or simply tighten up out of fear, the dog picked up on this and reacted. This is something that could have happened anyway simply because he was put under a very stressful situation to him.

I'm guessing right now your fearful! Your terrified of your dog now in certain situations. You are now to the point of if this happens again, or if you even come close to another child you will tense up....and believe me, Charlie will pick up on this and he will react simply because he's feeding off of your fears now. At this point Charlie is not a "Stable" dog, and you are not going to be a "Stable" person for him and this can lead to a ticking timebomb!!! As much as I hate to say this now, I would return Charlie to he rescue, he needs someone else over him and he needs help!!! It's not to late now, but.....by going by your post and how you are saying you feel.....your not good him now!!!

As far as the NILIF program goes that you have mentioned, it 
is an accepted standard in dog training/behavior but it is not, and is not intended to be, a substitute for an in-person, professional evaluation of your dog's behavior. This technique is intended for dogs in good health and of sound mind and stable temperament.

Right now Charlie's temperment is not stable, he needs help before it is too late. The bite was not serious, it sounds from your description he is at a Level two. He is obviously a dog with a "High Bite Inhibition", this is good at this point, but....you don't want it going to a level three and this must be prevented at all costs! That warning said he was serious, but the stressors "Must" be removed at this point before he graduates too a level three.

It all can be worked with now, at this point!! But once he goes over the top and is allowed to be put around these stressors and they are not removed at this point, it will move upward. HE needs help now, if you don't feel qualified to do this, get him back to the rescue where they are qualified to help him....it will be his gift, and that will be the gift of life from you because otherwise if he bites again, he will be most likely put down. Don't let it get that far.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Goldndust said:


> I wouldn't go with the boot camp thing, aggressiveness will never help aggressivness. Thats pretty much been proven, it will make the situation worse.


You're assuming that the trainers/behaviorists would use an aggressive approach. I've found trainers here who offer boarding/training services and their methods are not aggressive in the least. Perhaps my referring to them as a 'boot camp' was a misleading.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

sashac said:


> ...Monomer - I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on things I can do to work with him other than what you've mentioned in the past. At this point, I don't need a "satisfying" relationship, I need a safe and trustworthy one...


Okay, but my gut still thinks it would be better for you and your family if you could find the strength to take Charlie back to rescue...
You will most likely not have the wonderful relationship with a Golden Retriever you first envisioned... however I believe you can eventually have a somewhat 'normal' relationship with Charlie if you really put out the effort to change some of your lifestyle to accommodate Charlie.


sashac said:


> ...buying a muzzle for those times when we can't avoid others, being much, much stricter with him - no more overly extravagant cuddles and petting time, unnecessary treats, etc, only power walks with tight leash control, food at designated times only after we eat, etc etc. Things we've been doing, but are just going to step up a lot...


Wow, judging by the foregoing, it seems you are doing a lot of things right already and you have a good idea of the attitude its going to take to 'finish the job'.

Okay, regardless of whether Charlie is dominate or fearful (or a combination of the two... this is quite possible) the solution, I believe, is the same. By establishing yourself as a pack leader who remains calm, yet assertive, and is always in control... eventually you will get Charlie's trust... once Charlie really accepts and trusts your leadership he will have no reason to fear situations or try to make his own decisions but instead will defer to you, trusting your leadership skills will protect him. Warning: With Charlie being an older rescue, this could take a very long time (maybe a year, maybe even longer).

First and foremost... exercise him a lot, each and every day. Real physical exercise... 'fetch' if he will do it properly, 'bicycling' if you feel you two can do it safely (remember work up to distance slowly), hiking is always fun, swimming is excellent for the older dog especially combined with fetch (dogs can swim for so much longer than they can run) and of course PowerWalking. The biking, hiking, and walking activities will also satisfy the pack migration instinct that is ingrained in our dogs... since you set the direction taken and Charlie must then follow, this is basically role playing with you in the pack leader's slot and Charlie as the follower... this should be a ritual you will practice every day for the rest of his life. These are all one-on-one activities where its just you and Charlie... with Charlie having to pay attention to you and your actions, whether its throwing the ball/stick and releasing it to you or having to pay attention to your movements to stay with you. Make sure you physically tire him every day, this will help to keep him calm and more attentive to you. [Actually, what I do with Sidney is push him to his physical limits about every third day and just exercise to ~50% capacity the other two in-between days, this allows him to re-build muscle mass and the stamina he'll need for his 'big blow-out' every third day. It works well now because he is still such a young dog... I figure when he turns 6 or 7 years I'll switch to exercising him to ~70% capacity every day.]

Next... its good you are already practicing NILIF. You might add to this however... NEVER offer ANY affection unless he is in a calm, submissive state and I'd go one step further and with-hold all affection for several weeks (this will be a very hard thing to do indeed)... then slowly begin to phase in the affection, meted out in miserly portions and only when he is truly calm (pay careful attention to his body posture, eyes, and ears... ears should be back and held low and relaxed, eyes should not be fixated on anything, and maybe even half closing, and finally his posture should be laying down or could be sitting but definitely relaxed and not tense and/or leaning forward or any part of him stiff). Also take time to practice some obedience commands with him every day (at least for 10-minutes, twice a day), especially getting him to lay down, roll on his side, and roll onto his back, all on command... and performing the long stay (increase the duration of the stay slowly each day until he will hold a stay for 10-minutes or longer and then with you walking out-of-sight). For fun you can try to teach some simple agility jumps, fetching on command, stuff like that... anything to work the mind and have him obeying your commands.

I have some more suggestions but will have to stop for now... its time for Sidney's PowerWalk for the day.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Okay, I'm back...

After he has learned those basic obedience skills at home, practice them in different locations/situations. While out on walks for instance... stop and have him lay down... get him to sit and 'stay' on every street corner... finally try these things in the presence of another dog or a child. Try to get him to the point where he will roll on his back in the presence of another dog or quietly 'stay' while a child approaches and pets him... remember to get him to this point will all take time and effort (like months of practice, everyday). Once he can successfully do those things you can now safely remove his muzzle permanently.

Also get him out into as many social situations (that you think he should be able to handle... increasing the degree of difficulty each time) as you can find locally and it is important that you correct improper behavior at the very first sign... if he's growling, you're too late... stop him at the stare, or the first show of any tenseness... make him turn sideways or even put his back to whatever is upsetting him. You need to show him that he must obey you and trust you, you will not let anything harm him but he must be submissive.

Use a choke chain, a prong collar, a martingale, a limited slip collar, any of those... but don't try to use a harness or any type of nose halter, you will not be able to control him properly. Put the collar very high on his neck (just behind the ears) and make corrections by jerking upward or sideways toward you, never back. This should allow you to control Charlie without undue physical strength being required or injuring Charlie's neck.

This last part is really the hardest to get down... the proper attitude. Never lose your temper or get emotional in any situation when with Charlie. Strong, dependable leaders never get flustered, frustrated, frightened... they are confident in all situations... always in control... this inspires trust from any and all followers. This means actually being/feeling confident, not 'faking it' because there will be no fooling Charlie, he can feel your inner emotions right down through the leash... in fact, I believe dogs can even smell your true emotions. This is the one part I'm not sure if you will be able to do. Both dominant and fearful dogs need a proven strong, confident leader before they will give over their complete trust... its the one area that I myself have been working so hard at trying to get right, developing that kind of confidence is not so easy. For now I will tell you to walk with your head high and shoulders back, chest out, look ahead and not down at Charlie... you've got to look like a leader before you can actually become one. Walk briskly and do not anticipate trouble before any encounter... you will only tense up (unconsciously sending Charlie into a defensive mode) and the dreaded encounter will become self-fulling. Pay no attention to Charlie except to leash correct him if he begins to show any excitement (staring, tenseness, growling, etc)... do not praise him even if you think his behavior is good... be neutral, aloof, like a true pack leader.


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

Ok, wow! Thanks for all that information. I had made a $350 appointment up at the UC Davis Animal Behavior Service but think I just got all the advice I need for free!! Thanks so much for taking the time to explain all that to me, especially the part about attitude. We know we are bad at that but your tips about our physical attitude help a lot. 

We are still not sure if we should keep him. I don't think the Rescue Agency is as competent as I had imagined in the beginning. I am worried about what will happen to him with yet another change in his life and possibly no change in his situation or continued, intensive training. Yet I agree that this is exhausting, just emotionally. So we are continuing to discuss and debate our plans and will talk with the Rescue Agency (when someone finally decides to respond to all of my calls and emails!)

We have been trying really hard to "ignore" him these past few days - withdrawing all affection. It's Day 3 now, and it's getting hard! The first day it was easy because we were so mad at him. Now, he's moping about the house and sighing a lot and looking at us very warily - it makes it hard not to just give in. But we're doing it - only real contact is on his powerwalks and mealtimes, which we've started giving him only after we eat. 

So, we will continue for now - utilizing your suggestions. Thank you again.


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## PeggyK (Apr 16, 2005)

I really feel for you-it must be so hard to with-hold affection-but if you get the results you want, it will be well worth it. It does seem that he is already realizing his place in the pack. Good luck and keep up the good work-it looks like you're doing everything you can to help hm be the best he can be.


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

I had another question about my training with Charlie - what should I do when he growls or barks? I am home all day with him and he often growls when he hears kids, or big trucks go by, or barks when a dog is out walking. Should I be ignoring him, or be sending him to his crate, or reprimanding him? 

I am now realizing how independent he is, and how possessive he is about his toys and food. He has never been one for a game of "fetch" - he will run after the ball, get it and take off with it in another direction until he is away from the thrower, and then sit and lick it, staring at us from the corner of his eye. Same with treats, you give it to him and he runs away into some remote corner of the house where he jealously guards it, or wolfs it down before anyone gets near him. Today, I decided to practice "fetch" with him in the house to give him some additional exercise and to see if he would listen. He refuses! Even with a food reward, he refuses to bring the ball back to me! Each time I simply went away and ignored him (did it only twice) and he came back to where I was working and lay down. But still no ball. Should I be practicing things like this with him? Is it even worth it/does it teach him anything? Is there a better way to teach him how to be less possessive?


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

I had another question about my training with Charlie - what should I do when he growls or barks? I am home all day with him and he often growls when he hears kids, or big trucks go by, or barks when a dog is out walking. Should I be ignoring him, or be sending him to his crate, or reprimanding him? 

I am now realizing how independent he is, and how possessive he is about his toys and food. He has never been one for a game of "fetch" - he will run after the ball, get it and take off with it in another direction until he is away from the thrower, and then sit and lick it, staring at us from the corner of his eye. Same with treats, you give it to him and he runs away into some remote corner of the house where he jealously guards it, or wolfs it down before anyone gets near him. Today, I decided to practice "fetch" with him in the house to give him some additional exercise and to see if he would listen. He refuses! Even with a food reward, he refuses to bring the ball back to me! Each time I simply went away and ignored him (did it only twice) and he came back to where I was working and lay down. But still no ball. Should I be practicing things like this with him? Is it even worth it/does it teach him anything? Is there a better way to teach him how to be less possessive?


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

This type of aggression is way, way WAY out of my experience but....Lucky can get possesive with food and chewys. 

After I give him a new chewy, I let him chew on it only if my hand is on it...meaning he never completely gets the chewy at first. Only whenl I think he has the idea that its mine not his does he get it. I let the kids do the same as I'm sitting with them. 

It seems after that procedure he doesn't treat the item like he would if I just "gave" it to him. He doesn't run off into a corner for instance...and often will come to the kids with it to play tug awar.

But I still never trust him. And even after all the procedures we go through...if I let up for an instance he goes back. He growled at my son the other day when my son petted him as he ate. I wasn't there and Louis (four years old) told me about it. We hadn't done our "hand in the kibble' procedure for a while.

As far as toys and other items just laying around...I've had no issues and wouldn't know how to deal with those commenplace items.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Ultimately...Charlie needs to get the message that he owns nothing....and that you own and control everything. This includes chewys, toys, food and treats. 

In my opinion...everytime he is allowed to be possesive...it becomes more ingrained and a part of his makeup. I also believe that though it is way out of his comfort zone to allow you control of his stuff....his comfort zone will change as training consistantly goes forward..

With toys, I used to keep them up..only bringing them down after Lucky sat or followed a command. And I would take a toy from him and make him follow a command and give it back. But toys have never been an issue with him, so I don't do that any more. He WANTS us to play with his toys! That means we play with him.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

sashac said:


> ...I am home all day with him and he often growls when he hears kids, or big trucks go by, or barks when a dog is out walking. Should I be ignoring him, or be sending him to his crate, or reprimanding him?...


I can relate... Sidney will also bark when inside the house and there is some activity going on out front (and it would not be unusual for him to precede that bark with a low growl)... however I know he means nothing by it, it is not about aggression, its more like him saying, "Hey come here and look at this... I think it might be important, but I'm not really sure... I'm a little nervous so tell me what you think". But, I only like for him to bark once or twice to alert me when someone approaches the house from out front and no more so... I will sometimes allow a growl and a bark, but that's it! I usually tell him to "Shut up!"... this works sometimes but if he barks again I will have him "Come", "Lay down" then tell him to "Shut-up" and give him a "Stay"... in all but a very few cases this has worked... finally if I have to I will get up go over to him and physically poke him in the side or neck with a couple of fingers and say "Enough!"... the 'E-word' (as its referred to around here) is reserved for when I absolutely mean it, he's always responded immediately to it 100%... to Sidney it means, "Whatever the hell you're doing, stop it, NOW!" Obviously you'll have to modify things to fit your Charlie's personality and knowledge of commands but...

Bottomline is... if you don't want him to do it, do something about it to make him stop... if it doesn't bother you don't worry, I don't believe there's any real harm here as long as he does get out of the house and exercised every single day (but I could be wrong... consult with your dog behavior specialist for a second opinion).


sashac said:


> ...I am now realizing how independent he is, and how possessive he is about his toys and food. He has never been one for a game of "fetch" - he will run after the ball, get it and take off with it in another direction until he is away from the thrower, and then sit and lick it, staring at us from the corner of his eye. Same with treats, you give it to him and he runs away into some remote corner of the house where he jealously guards it, or wolfs it down before anyone gets near him. Today, I decided to practice "fetch" with him in the house to give him some additional exercise and to see if he would listen. He refuses! Even with a food reward, he refuses to bring the ball back to me! Each time I simply went away and ignored him (did it only twice) and he came back to where I was working and lay down. But still no ball. Should I be practicing things like this with him? Is it even worth it/does it teach him anything? Is there a better way to teach him how to be less possessive?


You're getting me worried here...
Let me find out a little more first before I attempt any more advice.

Can you pick-up Charlie's food bowl before he is finished eating? Can you remove anything you like (toys, treats, etc) from Charlie's mouth anytime you feel like it? At times are you ever afraid of Charlie? Is anyone at your house ever afraid of Charlie? My next advice to you will depend upon how you answer those questions... in retrospect, perhaps this is where I should have started.


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

Thanks monomer! I can always pick up his bowl or take his toys/treats away - I just march over and take it. But Charlie has growled at my husband when he's come towards Charlie while he's got a treat in his mouth/paws, but has always let my husband take it away without a snap. He hasn't done that lately because we've really tried to get my husband in more of a dominant role (which has been hard since he's never been around dogs, nor did he believe all this stuff until this latest incident). 

So, to answer your question, I am not afraid of Charlie nor do I have any problems taking his stuff away. My husband gets nervouse but can still take his stuff away. The first dog fight I saw Charlie get into was over a toy.

Since Monday's bite, I've been trying to reinforce that Charlie owns nothing. I am hand feeding one bite at a time, only giving him the bite when he is in a totally calm state (head down on the ground, eyes sleepy) even if it takes a good 20 minutes between bites. I realize he's had this bad habit of "pawing" or nudging with his nose when he wants something, and is especially frantic with food. He'll stick his paw on my leg or my lap and push with his face to get me to open my hand and feed him. Well, no more. He has to wait extra time if he pulls crap like that. It's helping so far. I need to get my husband more involved in that, but it's hard since he works so much and I'm the one working from home. 

I was thinking today, we've had Charlie a little over 7 months and he's had 4 dog fights and bitten one child. It doesn't sound/look good for plans for reform. Today the girl's parents stopped by to say thank you for a gift I'd left them and to say the girl was ok. I saw the bite marks - they looked scary! She had what looked like teeth puncture marks on one arm, and a long gash on her other arm. Also a scratch on her face where his teeth grazed her when he turned around to bite. To me, that means that he didn't just throw a single bite and back off (like a warning nip) but that he actually attacked her, took her down. It really scared me and is making me consider what to do with him again. 

My husband doesn't want to give him up, but what would we do if we ever decided to have children? 

I am getting a lot of advice here, should I still keep my appointment with the new behavior specialist? I wonder if I will learn anything new; I've heard they really emphasize the NILIF method, which I think I'm learning already. Perhaps they can give me a very detailed plan to follow for the next few weeks.....but again, I think, I am getting a lot of valuable information here. Thanks!

PS. Charlie seems more subdued after 3 days of the silent treatment. He didn't growl or bark once today while in the house, even when the girl and her parents came to our gate, or when two Chihuahas who'd gotten loose on their walk came running after us, full speed, yapping and all. 

However, on his walk today in a new secluded park, he was extremely over stimulated and impossible to control. Made me come home and look up prong collars and anti-anxiolytics for dogs. He has always had this problem as if he had never been let outside for the first 8 years of his life - take him to a new place and he's in this hyper vigilant state, panting, ears up, eyes darting, pulling, tugging, running in circles, starting at any noise.....I feel like he was a "garage dog" or something before we got him. Clearly no socialization, it's sad.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

sashac said:


> ...I can always pick up his bowl or take his toys/treats away - I just march over and take it. But Charlie has growled at my husband when he's come towards Charlie while he's got a treat in his mouth/paws, but has always let my husband take it away without a snap. He hasn't done that lately because we've really tried to get my husband in more of a dominant role (which has been hard since he's never been around dogs, nor did he believe all this stuff until this latest incident).
> So, to answer your question, I am not afraid of Charlie nor do I have any problems taking his stuff away. My husband gets nervouse but can still take his stuff away...


Whew!... okay so my earlier advice to you still stands. You had me worried there for a minute.
As far as I can tell you are doing everything right, and what it will take is persistance over time. What type of a collar are you currently using?

Its really late here, so I'm now off to bed but I will try and add something more tomorrow.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Just to put in my 2 cents -- yes, I'd keep the behaviorist appointment. We can all offer advice sight unseen. But the behaviorist may pick up on something by actually watching Charlie that we cannot -- and that you might have missed. One of those 'lightbulb' moments. 

Just my opinion, but because his entire life is at stake -- as well as your peace of mind -- I would keep the appointment.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

One additional thing I might recommend... 
I think it would do good for Charlie to have some limitations within the 'pack's den' (your home), if you've not already done so. Pick a room (say maybe the basement) and/or even a piece of furniture (your bed or the 'good' couch in the living room) and make it off-limits to Charlie. Enforce this territorial 'claim' consistently. An example would be... our Sidney is never allowed on any furniture in the house except our bed, his bed (he actually has his own bedroom... don't ask), and the couch in our basement theater... also he is never allowed in our fish pond (in the patio area) and the surrounding hosta garden, ever (yes, I actually climb into the fish pond several times a year to clean the filters and the 'muck' off the bottom and Sidney's only allowed to watch). Also from time-to-time if Charlie is in your path or even if he's in corner or nook... make him move, to reinforce that you own everything in the house, even the space he's occupying.

As far as the dog behaviorist... Brandy's Mom makes a good point there... but I think it really depends upon who the behaviorist is, whether its worth the effort or not. Seems like anyone can call themselves a dog behaviorist, doesn't signify their competency level... I would definitely want to talk to several people who've used this behaviorist before with a record of success with similar dog problems... otherwise, it could very well be a waste of money.


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

Yeah, I am keeping the appt at UC Davis - I guess I'll just see what I learn. At $350, they should have SOMETHING to offer me! I really want to understand what if anything can be done about his fear of children, at least from a distance. My husband has been really against giving him up, but I have started to get really worried about our own situation - I don't want kids now, but what if I do later, and Charlie's still with us?

We hmarked some clear lines with Charlie right when we got him. He's NEVER allowed on the couch, and that took us a few weeks to teach him. We'd come home and he'd be sitting all curled up in my husband's armchair. He never gets on now, though - learned quickly! He's never allowed on any furniture, including our bed. At first, we had him sleep in his crate in the office, but as time went by, we moved his crate into our bedroom. Now, we've moved it back in the office. It took him some time to get used to not being in our bedroom at night - we'd wake up and find him sitting at our door. 
I wonder if I can reinforce this by not letting him into the bedroom at all - there's no reason for him to be there, we don't spend that much time in there anyway. He never walks into bathrooms, (something he must have learned elsewhere?) and maybe our bedroom could be added to the list? 

We've also been moving him from wherever he is, at random times, just making him get up and sit somewhere else, or making him come upstairs to us, randomly. 

It's funny, because in a lot of ways, I feel that he is relatively well-trained, picks up things fast, and doesn't really see himself as the "pack leader" in our house, at least not with me. I think he does worry about pack status when we are on walks, and he encounters "scary" things - like dogs, children or people that abruptly move into his line of sight. I must not be reinforcing myself as pack leader and protector enough, in those situations. At home, i feel like for the most part, he gets the point. My husband is also now working at reinforcing his status at home and on walks because Charlie hasn't seem him as a pack leader in the past, for sure!


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