# Protein Content in Orijen/Innova



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I think you're referencing EVO, not Innova ( both made by Natura, but EVO is the grain free). Personally, I would not feed such high protein as the EVO. There are many more moderate protein levels found in some grain free if that is the way you want to go.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

EVO is not intended for puppies...it is strictly for dogs over 12 months of age, the calcium/phosphorous levels are incorrect for growing puppies. Personally, I would wait even longer to feed EVO.

The others are fine...the protein is derived from meat so it's actually ok to feed. There are people on my Dane board that feed their puppies TOTW and other grain free food and Dane pups are notorious for bone/growth issues. This is how one of the members explained it (long post):

Well the simple answer to your question is no, grain free is not too high in protein or fat. As there is no such thing as too much protein for a growing pup, and the old myth that it caused growth disorders has been debunked many times over the years by vets, scientific studies, and nutrionalists. Before such novel changes were made to the dog food industry, almost all high protein foods were high in calories and mineral contents as the dangers of these were not known or properly research so the average owners of giant breeds and large breed puppies were told to stay clear and the finger was pointed towards protein. Why? It along with fat content were almost always printed on bags, but things like calorie content and mineral contents were often, and in some cases still are, not included on the bags of kibble.


The long answer is... 

There is no such thing as too much protein in the canine body, and any protein that cannot be used for growth, energy and maintenance is excreted through the kidneys. This is the beauty of our companions tho, they are made to process high amounts of protein and there is absolutely no harm in the excretion of protein through the kidneys in a healthy dog that has healthy and functioning kidneys. Carbohydrates are actually the least effective means of energy in the canine body and are more readily converted to fat and stored within the body. High carbohydrate dog foods are a cheap way to meat the energy requirements of canines in commercial food. While they do make easily digestible energy they are far from the ideal source of energy. They often lead to health issues in dogs such as obesity and when the amount of carbohydrates digested exceed the amount of energy needed by the body it is then converted to fat. This is not the case with proteins that are in excess flushed from the body. Thus showing an advantage to high protein, low carbohydrate foods.

Here is a break down of the calories per cup for a few different foods:

TOTW Pacific Stream: 360 cal/c 24%protein

TOTW High Prairie: 370 cal/c 34% protein

Eagle Pack Puppy: 377 cal/c 23% protein

Eagle Pack Hollistic: 403 cal/c 22%protein

Canidae ALS: 468 cal/c 24% protein

Orijen 6fish: 460 cal/c 44%protein

Chicken Soup Adult: 336 cal/c 24% protein

Acana: 375cal/c 23% protein


What is interesting to note is that the protein levels are not directly related to the caloric levels in foods. It is everything else in the food that is pushing the caloric intakes up and down. I think this is one of the main reasons that myself and others feel protein is of the lesser importance in food and feeding it properly you are at no more risk then feeding any other food.


It seems the main cause of true HoD and Hip Dysplasia according to research is caloric intake vs caloric usage. If you are feeding your pup too many calories or supplementing his diet with too many treats/scraps/ supplements you are a likely candidate for growth disorders.


Much of the old school of thought was protein was the contributing factor to growth disorders. Further testing and research have shown this to be false. The main contributors to growth problems are mineral amounts (calcium and phosphorus) and caloric intake v. caloric usage. Many puppy foods overload their kibbles with calories in attempts to stimulate growth, but with dane puppies you really want a moderate calorie amount and moderate calcium and phosphorus. It has been shown that too little protein can cause more problems than too much. Protein causes muscle growth but has no direct relation to bone growth. If you keep your pup slender and healthy then the stress on the joints should be minimal.


One thing to consider when looking at no grain foods with higher protein % is your dog is not consuming on average more protein then he would daily on a 22-25% protein kibble. Your dog eats less normally half or 2/3s the amount of a no grain food that he would eat of a grain inclusive food. 


8c grain inclusive at 22% protein and 400cal = 1.76c protein and 3200 calories


5c grain free at 32% protein and 370cal = 1.6c protein and 1850 calories


If you are feeding around 9-10 cups you would be feeidng around 6c- 7c TOTW. I personally would not feed more than 7c a day unless my dog was showing weight loss.


What you find is even tho the protein % is roughly the same daily intake as it is for the grain inclusive you are consuming much less calories. Hence taking some of the stress off your pup's growth. This is because they are getting all the protein and other nutrients they need from a smaller amount of ingested food and none of the waste they get in other foods. Also, meat protein is much easier on the digestive system of a dog than grain proteins. Because of the length of the digestive tract (being short in dogs) they are made to digest meat proteins. Grain proteins take longer in the digestive system to break down and can often lead to a lot of the kibble's grain nutrients never being utilized. 


Also for a long time it was thought that too high of protein actually was a detriment in older dogs because it would hurt the kidneys. Studies actually showed in recent years that was not the case and older dogs need as much or more protein than growing puppies and that there was no detriment to feeding them it. 


As far as why you see the same thing over and over on a lot of websites is because it was standard for so long. Think about something like the common belief that it was needed that you eat fish once a week to be healthy. This was believed and widespread throughout nutrition and then new research was done. They discovered due to mercury levels in the sea this was a horrible idea and you should cut back your fish intake and eat low mercury fish. It took a long time for that the be accepted and I still know families that do not believe it.

Quote:
RELATIONSHIP OF NUTRITION TO DEVELOPMENTAL SKELETAL DISEASE IN YOUNG DOGS
Phillip W. Toll, DVM, MS 
Daniel C. Richardson, DVM, Diplomate ACVS 

Mark Morris Institute, Topeka, Kansas
Developmental skeletal disease is a group of skeletal abnormalities that affect fast growing, large breed dogs. This is a multifactorial disease that has genetic, environmental, and nutritional components. All of these components will be discussed, however, our focus is nutrition. Nutrient excesses (e.g. Excess mineral supplementation) and rapid growth often exacerbate musculoskeletal disorders. Lack of careful genetic monitoring can result in the introduction and propagation of disorders that are all but impossible to eliminate (e.g. hip dysplasia, patella luxation, osteochondrosis). Trauma, whether obvious (e.g. hit by car) or subtle (e.g. excessive weight) can affect the relatively weak growth centers (e.g. angular limb deformities). 
The musculoskeletal system is in a constant state of turnover or change throughout life, the rate of turnover is of course greatest early in life, during the growth phase. Skeletal growth is most rapid in the first few months of life and slows through the first year until skeletal maturity (about 12 months for most breeds). Because the metabolic activity of the musculoskeletal system is so great during the first 12 months of life, the skeletal system is more susceptible to insult, both physical and metabolic. The physical manifestation of these insults is lameness in the young animal and potentially altered growth which may affect the locomotion and/or soundness of the adult. 
The role of nutrition in developmental skeletal disorders is complex. Rate of growth, specific nutrients, food consumption, and feeding methods have all been shown to influence skeletal disease. The large and giant breeds are the most susceptible to developmental skeletal disease, presumably because of their accelerated growth rate. Dietary deficiencies are of minimal concern in this age of commercial diets specifically prepared for young, growing dogs. Problems associated with dietary excess are far more likely, especially if supplements (minerals, vitamins, and energy) are combined with a high quality growth food. Specific categories of nutrients play a role in developmental skeletal disease. They are discussed below. 
ENERGY 
Rapid growth in large and giant breed dogs increases their risk of skeletal disease. Large and giant breed dogs are genetically programmed to grow at a very fast rate. Excessive dietary energy may support a growth rate that is too fast for proper development of the skeleton. Dietary energy is used by the growing puppy for body maintenance, activity and growth. 
The amount needed for any individual depends on breed, age, neuter status and activity levels. In general, growing puppies require twice as much dietary energy as adults. The need is greatest right after birth and decreases as the dog grows and matures. Because individual needs can vary widely energy or food dose calculations can only be used as general guidelines or starting points that must be modified based on clinical evaluation of each individual. 
The ultimate guide is based on physical evaluation. The ribs should be easily palpable beneath the skin and a thin layer of subcutaneous tissue. An hour glass conformation or waist should be present when viewed from above. Limiting intake to maintain these physical parameters will not impede reaching ultimate genetic potential. It will only reduce intake, fecal production, obesity and lower the risk of skeletal disease. Further research is needed into breed differences in energy requirements. 
PROTEIN 
Unlike other species, protein excess has not been demonstrated to have any negative consequences on calcium metabolism or skeletal development in the dog. It has been shown in the Great Dane that a protein level of 14.6% (dry matter basis) with 13% of the dietary energy coming from the protein is marginally sub optimal. When compared to higher protein levels, there was a significant decrease in body weight, plasma albumen and plasma urea. A minimum level of protein in the diet depends on digestibility, amino acid composition, proper ratios among the essential amino acids and their availability from the protein source. Energy density of the food and the physiological state of the dog plays a role as well. A growth diet should contain >25% protein (dry matter basis) of high biologic value supplying at least 16% of the dietary energy. In the normal dog, dietary protein requirements decrease with age.
__________________


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> I think you're referencing EVO, not Innova ( both made by Natura, but EVO is the grain free). Personally, I would not feed such high protein as the EVO. There are many more moderate protein levels found in some grain free if that is the way you want to go.


Yes, I meant EVO. Thanks...


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

kwhit said:


> EVO is not intended for puppies...it is strictly for dogs over 12 months of age, the calcium/phosphorous levels are incorrect for growing puppies. Personally, I would wait even longer to feed EVO.


I won't be switching Austin to Adult food till he is 1 year. But since he's already 10 months, I need to complete my research and start gradually adding the new food to his puppy food.



> Well the simple answer to your question is no, grain free is not too high in protein or fat. As there is no such thing as too much protein for a growing pup, and the old myth that it caused growth disorders has been debunked many times over the years by vets, scientific studies, and nutrionalists. Before such novel changes were made to the dog food industry, almost all high protein foods were high in calories and mineral contents as the dangers of these were not known or properly research so the average owners of giant breeds and large breed puppies were told to stay clear and the finger was pointed towards protein. Why? It along with fat content were almost always printed on bags, but things like calorie content and mineral contents were often, and in some cases still are, not included on the bags of kibble.


Thanks for the great information. But according to the study, it appears that high protein is not an issue. Isn't that what it says? I understand that Calories and Carbs are important things to watch out for too, other than Protein. But the post seems to say that if you make sure you watch for the Calories and Carbs, then the High Protein should not be an issue? 



> One thing to consider when looking at no grain foods with higher protein % is your dog is not consuming on average more protein then he would daily on a 22-25% protein kibble. Your dog eats less normally half or 2/3s the amount of a no grain food that he would eat of a grain inclusive food.


Wellness LBP doesn't have Wheat, Corn, Soy, but it does have Rice, Barley etc. So according to above, does it mean that a completely grain-free food with high protein, like EVO, would be ok to feed, as long as the serving is smaller than a grain inclusive food? So according to this, EVO should be ok to feed, right? Sorry for the questions, but just want to make sure I understand it...



> A growth diet should contain >25% protein (dry matter basis) of high biologic value supplying at least 16% of the dietary energy. In the normal dog, dietary protein requirements decrease with age.


At what age would you say a food like EVO may be ok to feed? And at what age should high protein (~40%) be stopped?


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

*Penny & Maggie's Mom & Kwhit*

What foods do you use for your pups/dogs?


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## AnimalLuver (Oct 13, 2011)

I agree with everything KWhit said (as it is the same information I learned on the Great Dane forum).

I am feeding both my Great Dane 4mth old pup, and Trooper my 4yr old Retriever Orijen. Very high calorie, high protein food. I was very weary about putting Gus on it, as I heard scary things about Great Danes and their growth...but after much research, I believe that dogs are carnivores, and their bodies were meant to process "meat protein", even giant/large breed puppies....along with everything else in kwhit's previous post. Nicely done 

But rest assured, Orijen and EVO have by far been the best foods I've ever had Trooper on! He has been on EVO for the past year or so, because he is SUPER DUPER active, and needed to gain some weight, I overfed him on purpose this food, and he gained gradually, and perfectly. Had I not overfed him, and followed the guidelines, I don't think he would have gained anything (in case you're worried about weight gain). He also does very well on Orijen. I follow the guidelines, and he maintains a healthy weight.  I am a big grain free fan based on the results I see with my dogs personally.


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

AnimalLuver said:


> I agree with everything KWhit said (as it is the same information I learned on the Great Dane forum).
> 
> I am feeding both my Great Dane 4mth old pup, and Trooper my 4yr old Retriever Orijen. Very high calorie, high protein food. I was very weary about putting Gus on it, as I heard scary things about Great Danes and their growth...but after much research, I believe that dogs are carnivores, and their bodies were meant to process "meat protein", even giant/large breed puppies....along with everything else in kwhit's previous post. Nicely done
> 
> But rest assured, Orijen and EVO have by far been the best foods I've ever had Trooper on! He has been on EVO for the past year or so, because he is SUPER DUPER active, and needed to gain some weight, I overfed him on purpose this food, and he gained gradually, and perfectly. Had I not overfed him, and followed the guidelines, I don't think he would have gained anything (in case you're worried about weight gain). He also does very well on Orijen. I follow the guidelines, and he maintains a healthy weight.  I am a big grain free fan based on the results I see with my dogs personally.


So EVO Red should be ok to get? Austin is at 67lbs and he doesn't need to gain weight. I guess I would be feeding him less than 3.5cups/day, since it's a higher protein food, right? I was going to go with TOTW and only reason I was hesitating on EVO was the 40% protein...


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## AnimalLuver (Oct 13, 2011)

kwhit said:


> EVO is not intended for puppies...it is strictly for dogs over 12 months of age, *the calcium/phosphorous levels are incorrect for growing puppies*. Personally, I would wait even longer to feed EVO.





canine_mommy said:


> So EVO Red should be ok to get? Austin is at 67lbs and he doesn't need to gain weight. I guess I would be feeding him less than 3.5cups/day, since it's a higher protein food, right? I was going to go with TOTW and only reason I was hesitating on EVO was the 40% protein...


Like kwhit stated, the calcium/phosphorus levels are not balanced for a growing pup in EVO. TOTW and Orijen are balanced for growing pups. Personally I only feed Trooper EVO when he needed to gain weight, because it's so rich, and VERY high in fat. It's also more expensive than Orijen, which is in my opinion the best food I can find. If you're stuck on EVO, I would definitely wait til 1yr, or more yet. You don't wanna mess around with those calcium/phosphorus ratios with a growing pup.


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

Thank you all!  I decided on TOTW Sierra Mountains (Lamb formula, 25% Protein, 15% Fat) since it is a single meat ingredient. I had given Austin a sample of the High Prairie (Bison) when he was 3 months old and he had loved that too. I thought I would start with Lamb and then move on to the Bison... In fact, I just got back from the store with the Sierra Mountain... will do a gradual transition.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

AnimalLuver said:


> ...along with everything else in kwhit's previous post. Nicely done


Wish I could take credit but this was written by Faust, a member of DOL. She's a nutritional guru.


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## AnimalLuver (Oct 13, 2011)

kwhit said:


> Wish I could take credit but this was written by Faust, a member of DOL. She's a nutritional guru.


oh right : I think I knew that lol. She is full of great information! But it's great that YOU're here passing it on


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

One issue I have is tummy trouble when upping protein as high as Orijen. I would love to feed it to all four of my goldens, but they just don't digest much over 40 percent as well. They do amazingly on Eukanuba Premium Performance, and we had a golden live to be 15 3/4 years old on it, but I just feel pressure to feed something with less filler and no byproducts. So I have tried all the foods on the great dane list at one time or another. TOTW is great on the stomachs, but it is not enough clalories for my crew. I think the new Solid Gold "Suncatcher" chicken food has been great for Tally, who needs a little less, and Nature's Variety has been great for the other three. However, Ortijen would be my first choice if I could get them switched onto it successfully.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Jill, you should put Timberwolf on your rotation schedule. They have both grain free and grain inclusive, and the calorie content is between 500-522 cals/cup. I have the girls on the bison and they are doing great! BTW, one of the grain free is a fish formula. www.timberwolforganics.com


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

I feed Canidae ALS Grain free. It is 34% protein. It is an All Life Stage so it is good for puppies. EVO protein was to high for my guys but a good food. Just switch really slow with a really high protein. EVO is not for puppies. Wait until over a year.


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## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

My now 4 year old Golden has always been fed a combination of home cooked and Orijins.
He has never had an issues. 

In the Chicago area, EVO and Orijins cost exactly the same.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> One issue I have is tummy trouble when upping protein as high as Orijen. I would love to feed it to all four of my goldens, but they just don't digest much over 40 percent as well. They do amazingly on Eukanuba Premium Performance, and we had a golden live to be 15 3/4 years old on it, but I just feel pressure to feed something with less filler and no byproducts. So I have tried all the foods on the great dane list at one time or another. TOTW is great on the stomachs, but it is not enough clalories for my crew. I think the new Solid Gold "Suncatcher" chicken food has been great for Tally, who needs a little less, and Nature's Variety has been great for the other three. However, Ortijen would be my first choice if I could get them switched onto it successfully.


Don't feel the presure. Feed what works for your dogs.


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## AnimalLuver (Oct 13, 2011)

MGMF said:


> Don't feel the presure. Feed what works for your dogs.


Exactly!  Especially when you've tried a food that you feel "pressured" to feed because people recommend it, and it didn't work, no guilt in switching to something else, even if people say it's of lesser quality...if it works for your dog, then it's a good choice for you.

Something about Orijen, a lot of people say it gives their dogs runs, but most people over feed Orijen. It's such a rich food that so little of it needs to be fed to meet your dogs requirements. If you DID want to stay with Orijen, try feeding less of it, and see if that improves the stools...this can take months of trial and error. If not, good luck with your next choices


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## Running Star (Nov 4, 2011)

I have tried both foods ( ORIJEN & EVO ) and they both gave my girl runny poop.
I ask my vet about it and he said that the protein was way too HI for her.
I am feeding her Formm food now ( DUCK & SWEET POTATO ) and her poop is not runny any more.
But she is not a puppy she is 8 1/2 years now


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## AnimalLuver (Oct 13, 2011)

Running Star said:


> I have tried both foods ( ORIJEN & EVO ) and they both gave my girl runny poop.
> I ask my vet about it and he said that the protein was way too HI for her.
> I am feeding her Formm food now ( DUCK & SWEET POTATO ) and her poop is not runny any more.
> But she is not a puppy she is 8 1/2 years now


For dogs that can't handle Orijen and EVO, I like to recommend Acana grain free formulas. Most people that make that switch really like it, see improvements in the dogs stools, and the dogs enjoy this food a lot. Even though it's still a higher protein kibble, it seems to agree with most dogs systems better. I feed both my dogs a rotation of Acana GF/Orijen, and while they're getting the Orijen flavors, I feed a lot less than the Acana flavors.

Fromm foods are GREAT! (on paper anyway...my dogs have never tried it, but I've heard from other dog owners that it works wonders for their dogs!)


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