# Cost for a Breeder's Puppy



## dancingmanatee (Oct 20, 2012)

Hey everyone,

So I finally found a puppy that I love! I've met the breeders, visited with the puppies, asked lots of questions, and I'll be getting the AKC Registration numbers with the clearances soon!

The breeder I found is Redog Goldens, which I've heard nothing but great things about.

However, there is an issue -- the price.

Audrey (Becky's daughter-in-law) wants $1800. It hurts, but I'm willing to pay that much. I'll be getting a healthy dog that could live to 17 years old (Becky says they breed for longevity) and that if there are serious health problems, I'll get my money back. However, my boyfriend is a lot more hesitant. $1,800 is a lot of money -- like down payment on a new car lot of money. Plus, a friend of ours says that he bought his golden from a reputable breeder with all the clearances for $750. $1800 vs. $750 makes my boyfriend think we're getting ripped off. $750 makes me think my friend is misinformed or his breeder is full of BS.

I've shopped around (but this is the only breeder I've visited). My boyfriend and I want a dog now. This is the only dog I've found in Colorado where I trust the breeder AND has available puppies ready by Christmas. I looked in other states, but when you factor in the cost of shipping, the price will be about the same. 


Does this sound like a reasonable amount to you all? Do you think there's a possibility to try to haggle it down?


Thanks!


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I think it is reasonable for multiple reasons. Cost varies a bit by region. Here in my area the average price for a well bred dog from conformation lines, like what you are considering is $1200-$1500. I know on the coasts it seems to be a bit more. I think Redogs has a good reputation and you will be glad to have their support during the life of your dog. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Couple thoughts....

1. There are no guarantees when buying a puppy. It's great that the breeder breeds for longevity and I believe that does help, however, there's no solid bets. The quality of care and diet and exposure to chemicals and environment probably has an effect too. So I wouldn't be thinking that your puppy will live to be 17 years old, especially boys who are shorter lived than females.

2. Pragmatically speaking here, if the only reason why you are going with a pretty expensive breeder is because they sell puppies for Christmas, that's probably a reason to sit back and think it over. 

3. I think in Colorado you can expect to pay $1000+. 

4. Haggling would hurt your relationship with this breeder. No haggling. I would probably talk with somebody at the local club and see if $1800 is a good price in your area. If there an equal quality breeder who sells puppies for less than that, I'd check them out.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

$1800 is on the high end, but not at all ridiculous for an incredible health and temperament pedigree. $750 would be significantly below the norm for a fully cleared pup. While there's a chance that your friend simply went to a breeder who's selling dogs at a bigger-than-average loss in order to be picky about placements, there's also the possibility that the breeder fudged what the "clearances" are.

Also, be aware that it takes more than clearances to maximize breed type, health, longevity, and temperament. A breeder might do the clearances but not compete at all or do the other things that stack the deck in the pup's favor.

$1800 is a bargain if the breeder really is top notch. It isn't if the breeder is mediocre. $750 is a bargain for a dog from an excellent breeder, but that would be pretty rare.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

dancingmanatee said:


> Does this sound like a reasonable amount to you all?


No, I'd go with the less expensive puppy.



> Do you think there's a possibility to try to haggle it down?


It never hurts to try to negotiate, but my experience was that when I tried to haggle with experienced breeders who were into all the stuff people here think breeders should do, they absolutely refused to even consider budging on price. They act like they're not in it for the money, but when push comes to shove, they _are_ in it for the money, at least to some degree.

It was the classified ads type breeders who were more willing to negotiate, because they maybe had puppies just to give their kids the experience of seeing them, or an accidental breeding or whatever, and were mostly just concerned with finding a good owner and moving the puppies out, versus "reputable" breeders who tend to be overly concerned with money and big time control freaks (Forcing buyers to sign contracts, doing interviews with family and friends, inspecting homes, and the whole nine yards).

You're likely to see about 40 posts below this telling me off, but I have the courage to speak the truth here and give you what I feel is the right advice even if it's not popular. Paying more than double for a puppy won't guarantee your dog lives longer or doesn't get cancer, it just guarantees you have less money.

Also worth keeping in mind is all the dog stuff and vaccines and stuff you're going to need to pay for in the early months of owning a puppy. That'll be more manageable if you don't overpay for the puppy himself.

Finally, I'd just say that having your boyfriend fully on board is important if you expect him to share the work of raising the dog and treat the dog as a family member. If you alienate the boyfriend from the beginning and it causes early resentments, it could wind up effecting both his relationship with the dog and even his relationship with you.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

A lifespan of 17 years is very optimistic for any Golden Retriever. If the breeder is talking about 17 years, I would be a little hesitant. No breeder should make such lofty predictions because no one can know with any certainty how long a pup will live.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Also, one thing to keep in mind with getting an eight week old puppy in Colorado around Christmas time, is that those first few months are going to be very cold and very snowy, and you'll be bringing this puppy outside like 15 times a day to house train him. If that's something you want to do, there's no problem with it. However, if you're not real keen on being out in the cold most of the day in the dead of winter, you may want to look into getting a puppy in the summer instead.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

You need to decide if you want to pay $1,800 for the right reasons. If you are hoping the pup will live until 17, that would not be the right reason. But if you really like the breeder and their pups, then the $1,800 would be worth it because you are going to be in contact with this breeder for the duration of your pup's life. Your relationship with the breeder is important. If tight on money, I would pass. There are many, many reputable breeders who charge $1,200-$1,500.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> It never hurts to try to negotiate, but my experience was that when I tried to haggle with experienced breeders who were into all the stuff people here think breeders should do, they absolutely refused to even consider budging on price. They act like they're not in it for the money, but when push comes to shove, they _are_ in it for the money, at least to some degree.


When you go to a good breeder, they don't haggle because they're already taking a loss, not because they're in it for the money. Did you ignore all of those "cost of raising a litter" threads in which you participated?



Golden999 said:


> It was the classified ads type breeders who were more willing to negotiate, because they maybe had puppies just to give their kids the experience of seeing them, or an accidental breeding or whatever, and were mostly just concerned with finding a good owner and moving the puppies out,


Or because when you need to move a product with a shelf life, you're flexible on price so you can get it out the door before it loses value. Haggling is more of a sign of a need to sell than it is of finding a good owner.



Golden999 said:


> versus "reputable" breeders who tend to be overly concerned with money and big time control freaks (Forcing buyers to sign contracts, doing interviews with family and friends, inspecting homes, and the whole nine yards).


People who really care about their dogs lives are the people you want to buy from. If a breeder washes his hands of a pup once he's off the property, what does that say about the breeder's commitment to doing everything else right?



Golden999 said:


> You're likely to see about 40 posts below this telling me off, but I have the courage to speak the truth here and give you what I feel is the right advice even if it's not popular. Paying more than double for a puppy won't guarantee your dog lives longer or doesn't get cancer, it just guarantees you have less money.


You continuously repeat an opinion based on inaccurate information and bad assumptions about highly respected breeders, and you advocate actions that put dogs at increased risk for health and temperament problems. You can be darn sure that a bunch of us are going to chime in and tell you you're wrong.



Golden999 said:


> Also worth keeping in mind is all the dog stuff and vaccines and stuff you're going to need to pay for in the early months of owning a puppy. That'll be more manageable if you don't overpay for the puppy himself.


If a cheaper dog means a dog with incomplete clearances or from a breeder who doesn't compete to prove her dogs' health and temperament, then that upfront price means a more expensive dog in the long run. You've never addressed this math directly in all of your posts about how good breeders are overpriced, so please do so before you encourage new members to buy irresponsibly.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

I was prepared to pay up to $2,000 for my golden. ended up paying $1,200. Was the most I had ever spent on a dog, but worth every penny. I will never skimp on buying a pup from BYB again.. Just my personal choice as I want to support those whom do it right. My BYB golden I got when I was a teenager had thyroid issues and ended up getting bone cancer. Even though any dog can get these problems the odds are stacked more in your favor going through someone who does health clearances (heart, hip, elbows and eyes). 

I would say your friend probably got a pup from a BYB that probably only did a Hip check (maybe) ..some BYB breeders think by doing just that it is all the health clearances..but that's just touching the surface. Some BYB breeders consider just getting an exam done on their dogs is a health check :doh:.. Not even close! 

If your comfortable with the breeder, they do all the health screenings and they are raised properly to go for it. They will also give you lifetime support for your dog. My breeder has become a good friend and that is priceless!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Tippykayak, thank you for your well written response. 

Golden999, you continue to prove how grossly uninformed you are about breeding and puppies. This isn't about "telling you off" it's about you being just plain wrong. 

To the OP, $1800 is normal for my area (California) where puppies can range from $1400-2000 depending on the breeder and titles on the parents. It definitely is a lot of money but to me, when an animal will be part of your family for then next 10 plus years, it's not the time to be hitting the bargain bin and haggling price. (I think haggling price with a breeder is just tacky.) Go with a breeder you trust whose price is within the range of normal for the area (which it sounds like this breeder is) and in the long run, you will be so happy that you did.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

A friend of mine bought a "local backyard breeder's puppy" a few years ago. Fortunately they loved him, but he was the dumbest, most awkward golden I'd ever seen. He died early and had health problems (hips) early.

I got my first golden (17 years ago) also from a "local breeder". I lucked out, all the clearances had been done and the dam had a lovely disposition. Amber lived long and was amazing.

This time I went with a 'professional breeder'. The puppy, Maddie, is a delight (er, now at six months). 

I suggest that you consider the higher price as an investment in a great dog. Temperament is as critical as is health.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Gwen_Dandridge said:


> A friend of mine bought a "local backyard breeder's puppy" a few years ago. Fortunately they loved him, but he was the dumbest, most awkward golden I'd ever seen. He died early and had health problems (hips) early.


 
:--keep_silent:


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Around here, $1200 - 1700 is the going rate whether the breeder is reputable, or not. I figure its better to take your time, and find one your comfortable with, and to spend a few hundred more if necessary. I never checked into what $750 gets you, because I never ran across us such a breeder.


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## dancingmanatee (Oct 20, 2012)

Megora said:


> 2. Pragmatically speaking here, if the only reason why you are going with a pretty expensive breeder is because they sell puppies for Christmas, that's probably a reason to sit back and think it over.


I'm not just looking at an expensive breeder because she's selling them at Christmas. I'm looking at an expensive breeder for the health clearances and good temperament. I'm focusing on this breeder in particular because she fits my criteria, her dogs fit my criteria, AND she has the puppies available at Christmas. I'm not too particular with what I want from a dog or a breeder, but timing is ending up to be the deciding factor here.




Golden999 said:


> Also, one thing to keep in mind with getting an eight week old puppy in Colorado around Christmas time, is that those first few months are going to be very cold and very snowy, and you'll be bringing this puppy outside like 15 times a day to house train him. If that's something you want to do, there's no problem with it. However, if you're not real keen on being out in the cold most of the day in the dead of winter, you may want to look into getting a puppy in the summer instead.


I'm not keen to go outside in the winter at all, but each season with dogs is going to present its own set of challenges. We decided on Christmas because I get a full week off from work. It seemed easier to use that time to our advantage in order to welcome our new puppy. We'd be able to spend those cold nights cozying up and training her. Once the warm weather his, we can use that to our advantage to properly wear her out during her rebellious, stubborn teenager stage. (At least, that's the hope! :crossfing)


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Okay... but just remember that the first week is always the easy week. Second week they perk up and really need quite a lot of training... and it keeps getting busier from that point onward.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

I live in Northern California and I've also been researching breeders and I've seen the cost vary between 1400-2500.

I also want to add that my first dog was a BYB that I paid $200 for. However, because he had so many medical problems, over his lifetime we ended up spending $60,000+ due to medical issues. My belief is that you get what you pay for, and although no dog comes with an absolute guarantee, I think that if health is important to you than paying a little bit more up front would be the smarter decision rather than paying even more money throughout their lifetime. 

I am currently in contact with the breeder we are hoping to get a puppy from and NOT ONCE have I thought about negotiating the price with her. Do you know how much goes into breeding dogs? My breeder works a regular day job in order to sustain her hobby of breeding and showing dogs, and does not make a profit off of selling puppies. I think it's actually semi-disrespectful to even try or think to negotiate. I think it would be a good idea for you to look at the thread the outlines the cost of breeding dogs and I think this will give you a good indication of why these dogs are worth that much money, in addition to why these reputable breeders actually deserve to get paid more than they actually do!

Good luck in finding the right puppy for you but please do your research and listen to people's experiences before making your decision.


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## dancingmanatee (Oct 20, 2012)

SMBC said:


> I am currently in contact with the breeder we are hoping to get a puppy from and NOT ONCE have I thought about negotiating the price with her. Do you know how much goes into breeding dogs? My breeder works a regular day job in order to sustain her hobby of breeding and showing dogs, and does not make a profit off of selling puppies. I think it's actually semi-disrespectful to even try or think to negotiate. I think it would be a good idea for you to look at the thread the outlines the cost of breeding dogs and I think this will give you a good indication of why these dogs are worth that much money, in addition to why these reputable breeders actually deserve to get paid more than they actually do!


My intention is never to be disrespectful. This is my first time buying a dog on my own, I wasn't sure if haggling was part of the equation at all.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I looked at several breeders in the greater Denver area (within 3-4hrs of Denver) and every single one of them was asking $1200


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

I would never think anyone would be intentionally disrespectful and I think it's really great that you are asking questions and getting information, and I hope you are finding this thread helpful. 

It sounds like you are on the right path to getting a good puppy and like I said, paying for health is worth it. Good luck!!


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## debra1704 (Feb 22, 2012)

Our pup was $1,000 and we thought she had all health clearances, but as it turns out, her parents only had two (hip & elbow). Breeder did not check eyes & hearts were not checked by cardiologist, only local vet. I will be prepared to spend more next time.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

debra1704 said:


> Our pup was $1,000 and we thought she had all health clearances, but as it turns out, her parents only had two (hip & elbow). Breeder did not check eyes & hearts were not checked by cardiologist, only local vet. I will be prepared to spend more next time.


Depending on where you live though... some breeders do all the clearances, including going to the specialists vs general practice vets. And they charge less than $1000. 

Go by what the breeders DO vs what they charge.


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## debra1704 (Feb 22, 2012)

In our area, pet quality pups were $2,500 from local breeder (in town) who competes in AKC & parents have all clearances. I've posted that fact on this board before, but no one believes me, LOL.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I would also be looking for generations of clearances vice just on the immediate sire & dam. I'm surprised at the number of breeders charging in excess of $1K where only the sire & dam have clearances but no generations behind them or even incomplete clearances.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

To the OP: You are saying that Christmas time is the time you'd like a puppy. I know some breeders are already getting calls about puppies for Christmas. They are turning them away, because that's where most of puppies end up, shelters. If you feel that this time will be right for you, go ahead. With the stress of Christmas, family, etc., you also have to remember to be willing to put time into the puppy, and not hoping that it will magically just potty-train itself, shoot for it. 

Please do not negotiate on a price, the breeder sets a price for all of the work they have put into this litter and long exhausting hours of raising them to the way they want it.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

MaddieMagoo said:


> To the OP: You are saying that Christmas time is the time you'd like a puppy. I know some breeders are already getting calls about puppies for Christmas. They are turning them away, because that's where most of puppies end up, shelters. If you feel that this time will be right for you, go ahead. With the stress of Christmas, family, etc., you also have to remember to be willing to put time into the puppy, and not hoping that it will magically just potty-train itself, shoot for it.
> 
> Please do not negotiate on a price, the breeder sets a price for all of the work they have put into this litter and long exhausting hours of raising them to the way they want it.


I agree with you about Christmas puppies, but I didn't read it as she was specifically looking to get the puppy at Christmas. I think it was just that this particular litter from this particular breeder was expected to be ready to go home around Christmas time. If I remember right (and I'm in too much of a rush to go back and check... have to leave for agility) she said they wanted a puppy "now," which I take to mean as soon as feasibly possible.

The rest is spot on, and I agree it would be in bad taste to try and haggle the price down. There are many venues where that practice is appropriate, but reputable breeders isn't one of them. 

For the original question, I'm not sure what the average price is in your area. $1800 is definitely not unheard or and is not at the top of the scale of what reputable breeders will sometimes charge. If you are willing to look around, and very likely wait longer, you may find a lower price from an equally reputable breeder (I am taking your word for it about this breeder being reputable... no time to check right now ) Good luck on your puppy search. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> When you go to a good breeder, they don't haggle because they're already taking a loss, not because they're in it for the money. Did you ignore all of those "cost of raising a litter" threads in which you participated?


Actually, I did in one particular thread see a line by line break down of breeder costs. I replied to that with a line by line explanation of where I thought things were being done that were unnecessary or were done at too high of a price tag. You may have missed that, but I did address it, at great length, and then was just told by a lot of people "Too bad, it's all necessary", but it isn't, at least not from the perspective of someone like me who was just looking for a pet when I got my dog, and not a dog to show, breed, or have compete on dog shows.

I can't remember everything, because it went on at length, and my memory for that kind of stuff isn't great, but things were included like the cost of having their puppy's parents shown and compete in field competitions, the cost of missing work to hang out with the mother for a week or two while she hangs out with the prospective father, the cost of flying across the country to find a stud dog, the cost of sending the mother to a zillion different vet specialists, feeding raw meat, etc.. At one point, the list started talking about extracting semen samples like you'd do with a race horse and then I *really* stopped being able to really take it seriously.

I understand why some basic clearances would be beneficial. I understand why the mother would need a couple checkups with the vet. But a lot of the stuff breeders do beyond that just makes no difference to me (It's fine, but it's not something that makes a difference to me or costs I'd want passed on to me). They can find a local stud dog with a good temperament, get the deed done on the weekend, take the mother to the local regular non-specialist vet, get some basic health clearances (Ideally, though I had to do without when I got my dog), and feed the puppies Purina or Pedigree puppy chow, and I'm cool with that. Then they could sell for like $300 and still make lots of money.

Some of these breeders either don't care or don't understand that a lot of low-income folks are just looking for basic pets, not the next champion on the USA Network's big dog show, and can't afford to pay a fortune. As long as breeders show that lack of understanding or caring, they'll always be a market for backyard breeders, and I'll always be part of it when looking for a dog.



> Or because when you need to move a product with a shelf life, you're flexible on price so you can get it out the door before it loses value. Haggling is more of a sign of a need to sell than it is of finding a good owner.


I don't have a problem with it. I believe one of the things I said when negotiating the price on my dog a few years ago, when we couldn't come to an immediate agreement, was "Please feel free to call me back if you find you're not able to move all the puppies, but want to get the last ones out, and if I haven't found a puppy elsewhere by then, maybe we can talk.".



> People who really care about their dogs lives are the people you want to buy from. If a breeder washes his hands of a pup once he's off the property, what does that say about the breeder's commitment to doing everything else right?


I personally want (and found) a breeder who understands that once I buy a dog, the dog is mine to raise in whatever way I see fit. I'm not leasing the dog or babysitting the dog for the breeder. If I were babysitting, I'd expect to be paid, not to pay.  Some of these contracts contain terms that potential adoptive parents would never accept for _human_ children (I know, because my parents adopted some children after they were done having their biological children), let alone a dog. No one has the right to do a commando raid to take back a dog, as some of a friends' in-laws experienced, or tell me exactly what I must feed my dog, or mandate that I neuter if I don't want to, or tell me I can't leave my dog to relatives instead of return it to the breeder if I die, or tell me that I can't have a dog because I live in apartment, or whatever arbitrary conditions they impose. I just don't find it acceptable.

It's fine with me if a breeder wants to talk with me to get a sense of my experience with dogs and watch me interact with the puppies before I take one home, for his or her peace of mind, but I'm not giving a tour of my home and sending references and so on and so forth- at some point, it crosses a line. Privacy is important to me, and I'm often harshly judged, and don't want to put myself through that (It's extremely rough on me psychologically) if there is any alternative at all.



> You continuously repeat an opinion based on inaccurate information and bad assumptions about highly respected breeders


Maybe I just have a minority opinion on the forum and thus am thus not being respected by the group. I'm sure a lot of folks here would experience that feeling of being in the minority on a non-dog forum if they had this same discussion and expressed the opinions that they're lauded for here.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Also, I don't see haggling on price as being disrespectful. You can always haggle on price. And someone can always say no. But it's not disrespectful if you find a puppy you're interested in and the price exceeds what you can afford to basically say "Hey, here's what I can afford to pay, can we work something out?".


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> Also, I don't see haggling on price as being disrespectful. You can always haggle on price. And someone can always say no. But it's not disrespectful if you find a puppy you're interested in and the price exceeds what you can afford to basically say "Hey, here's what I can afford to pay, can we work something out?".


Did your parents haggle on the price of the adopted kids?


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

One thing to consider if your budget is tight is a local GR rescue. The fees are far less and the dogs are equally as loveable.
If it is a puppy you want then expect to pay $1200+ to get a dog with clearances, depending upon your area. 
My first 2 dogs were from byb. I loved them dearly but I will never again go that route. Live and learn.
Good luck!


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Golden999 said:


> I understand why some basic clearances would be beneficial. I understand why the mother would need a couple checkups with the vet. But a lot of the stuff breeders do beyond that just makes no difference to me (It's fine, but it's not something that makes a difference to me or costs I'd want passed on to me). They can find a local stud dog with a good temperament, get the deed done on the weekend, take the mother to the local regular non-specialist vet, get some basic health clearances (Ideally, though I had to do without when I got my dog), and feed the puppies Purina or Pedigree puppy chow, and I'm cool with that. *Then they could sell for like $300 and still make lots of money.*


What do you figure that works out to on an hourly basis? Also, factor in a certain level of risk, as is the case with any business. You'd be better off working somewhere for $2 / hr. 

Even if they were making a small profit, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Apparently, you would?


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

$1800 is the typical price for a reputably bred puppy. Your friend must not have gotten her puppy from the right source, that is if she got her puppy within the last few years. Maybe ten years ago, you might have been able to get a reputably bred puppy for $750, but now that is unlikely.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

Golden999 said:


> Also, I don't see haggling on price as being disrespectful. You can always haggle on price. And someone can always say no. But it's not disrespectful if you find a puppy you're interested in and the price exceeds what you can afford to basically say "Hey, here's what I can afford to pay, can we work something out?".


I feel like, if I were a breeder, and someone approached me and said "Hey, I know you charge this for your puppies, but this is how much I can afford to give you", it would make me nervous that if something happened to the dog, they wouldn't have the funds to be able to pay for their vet care.


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> Did your parents haggle on the price of the adopted kids?



I have family members who are adopted and that statement was beyond rude!

Children are not purchased, as a matter of fact that is against the law.

However, I am sure people do shop around for home study prices and lawyer fees.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Golden999 said:


> No, I'd go with the less expensive puppy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The reason why breeders won't budge with the money even though they are not in it for the money, is because the puppies still have worth and value since they come from high quality lines. They are worth the $1500-$2000. Plus, the breeder is recouping the expense of having a litter, sometimes operating at a loss. I can understand people who have lower budgets. However, while low income people deserve the joy of dog ownership as everyone else, to get the right puppy will require putting some money aside. I think it's great that you are budget minded. So am I. Cutting corners when it comes to the puppy purchase is not the right way to go.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Nairb said:


> What do you figure that works out to on an hourly basis? Also, factor in a certain level of risk, as is the case with any business. You'd be better off working somewhere for $2 / hr.
> 
> Even if they were making a small profit, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Apparently, you would?


Not necessarily. I just think, first and foremost, breeding for many people is more a labor of love than a business, at least that's what they _say_. They like the experience of having a dog give birth and seeing the mother raise her young puppies. But eventually they have to give some of them up (Usually at eight weeks) because for most people it isn't viable from a financial, space, lifestyle, or quality of care perspective to have several generations of golden retriever litters all grown up under the same roof.



Enzos_Mom said:


> I feel like, if I were a breeder, and someone approached me and said "Hey, I know you charge this for your puppies, but this is how much I can afford to give you", it would make me nervous that if something happened to the dog, they wouldn't have the funds to be able to pay for their vet care.


I don't really want to get into that discussion. We've had threads that'd gone on for dozens of pages on that topic.  Suffice is to say, I think basic vet care is important, but I don't think it good should be a requirement of dog ownership to have several thousand dollars on hand at all times. Sometimes alternate courses of treatment, payment plans, or other things have to be considered.



MercyMom said:


> The reason why breeders won't budge with the money even though they are not in it for the money, is because the puppies still have worth and value since they come from high quality lines. They are worth the $1500-$2000.


What I've been saying, though, is that there is a market out there for dogs that aren't show or fielding champions and are just decent examples of their breed who'd make good pets, who'd cost less. You can have your luxury line with championship bloodlines being fed raw food and where there's some sort of flight across the country to find a sire, and you can have your pet lines where they're just decent well mannered goldens bred locally and fed normal dog food and examined by their local vet. Some folks don't seem to think the latter idea is okay, but not everyone can afford or requires a championship dog. Some people just want a golden retriever puppy who's reasonably priced, reasonably representative of his breed, and has been looked over by a local vet and cleared of health issues.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Golden999 said:


> What I've been saying, though, is that there is a market out there for dogs that aren't show or fielding champions and are just decent examples of their breed who'd make good pets, who'd cost less. You can have your luxury line with championship bloodlines being fed raw food and where there's some sort of flight across the country to find a sire, and you can have your pet lines where they're just decent well mannered goldens bred locally and fed normal dog food and examined by their local vet. Some folks don't seem to think the latter idea is okay, but not everyone can afford or requires a championship dog. Some people just want a golden retriever puppy who's reasonably priced, reasonably representative of his breed, and has been looked over by a local vet and cleared of health issues.


I agree 100%. However with the caveat that both parents MUST have OFA hip, elbow, heart and current eye clearances. Altogether about $500 per dog to have those done, the cost of a few puppies. If there were pet breeders out there with all 4 clearances on both parents, breeding pets in the $500-$750 price range, I'd be all for it.
The problem is they are very very rare.
Those breeders who KNOW and CARE enough to do all 4 clearances typically don't want to breed and sell for less to the pet market. 
Or, conversely, the multitude of "responsible breeders" who DO all 4 clearances and do breed to a local decent stud dog to sell primarily pet puppies, feel justified in charging that $1200+ even though their dogs really aren't anything more than pets themselves, albiet with decent pedigrees and clearances. A catch 22!! (what I'm saying is I see plenty of breeders in my area who are producing nice dogs/all clearances/perfectly great pets but don't DO anything with their dogs to justify the price tag comparable to an excellent breeding with titled parents.)


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

I constantly see Golden Retriever ads in our local newspaper. I don't really consider these people "breeders" just because they have puppies. When we decided to bring another golden into our house (our 4th), we didn't choose to get one from the classified ads. Totally our choice. 

Of course, there is a market. Why else would there be five ads in last Sunday's paper for golden retriever puppies for $400? 

Please don't imply that Maddie's breeder or those on this forum are trying to rip you off or trying to deny you a dog.

Do what you want, I did.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Golden999 said:


> What I've been saying, though, is that there is a market out there for dogs that aren't show or fielding champions and are just decent examples of their breed who'd make good pets, who'd cost less. You can have your luxury line with championship bloodlines being fed raw food and where there's some sort of flight across the country to find a sire, and you can have your pet lines where they're just decent well mannered goldens bred locally and fed normal dog food and examined by their local vet. Some folks don't seem to think the latter idea is okay, but not everyone can afford or requires a championship dog. Some people just want a golden retriever puppy who's reasonably priced, reasonably representative of his breed, and has been looked over by a local vet and cleared of health issues.


Are the BYBs you refer to in it for the money? Why do they have a litter? Was it an "oops?" It's an honest question.

Do breeders really fly their dogs across the country? I thought it was done through AI in most cases, but I'm naive about these things.

My breeder feeds their dogs the same thing I do - Purina Pro Plan. Do most serious breeders feed their dogs raw steak? That would get expensive.

The breeder I originally talked to wouldn't even let me visit her facilities and probably doesn't have clearances for her dogs. Yet, she doesn't have trouble selling out all of her litters by the time she lets them go with their new owners at 7 weeks. She charges about the same amount that I paid, yet I have piece of mind of knowing Bella was responsibly bred. Does it guarantee a healthy dog for life? Of course not. But, I believe I've increased the odds of having a healthy dog with a good temperment about as much as I could have. That's worth of few hundred dollars to me. Perhaps not to you. That's fine. I honestly don't care what your criteria is, because it does not affect me in any way. 

I'm still not aware of a Golden breeder around here who has puppies in the $750 range.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

Golden999 said:


> Actually, I did in one particular thread see a line by line break down of breeder costs. I replied to that with a line by line explanation of where I thought things were being done that were unnecessary or were done at too high of a price tag.
> 
> I can't remember everything, because it went on at length, and my memory for that kind of stuff isn't great, but things were included like the cost of having their puppy's parents shown and compete in field competitions, the cost of missing work to hang out with the mother for a week or two while she hangs out with the prospective father, the cost of flying across the country to find a stud dog, the cost of sending the mother to a zillion different vet specialists, feeding raw meat, etc.. At one point, the list started talking about extracting semen samples
> 
> ...


I have never seen a post that frustrates me more. I am not a professional breeder, but I have raised litters for a service dog organization, on a volunteer basis. Which means I was not paid a cent, it does not mean I did not have expenses. 

If you have never bred and raised a litter, I don't think you are qualified to decide what to high a price is or not. These are things that reputable breeders do to maintain the health, and temperment of the breed, and I appreciate all the hard work those reputable breeders do to ensure that the golden retriever continues to be the friendly, trainable, hairballs we all know and love. It would only take a few generations of poorly bred goldens to change the golden into an almost unrecognizable breed.

I have not looked at the thread about the cost of raising a litter but I do know some of the expenses I had that you did not even mention. Extra loads of laundry, with scent free detergent and 2 rinse cycles--electricity, hot water, and time. Extra food for mom--2-3 times normal amount. Extra hydro--keeping the whelping box warm enough when the AC is on to keep the humans comfortable or warm enough when the heat normally goes down at night. You mention sperm samples, a semi-local stud (2 hours away) was used 1st litter--the boy would not do the deed, 2nd litter the mama dog as not receptive to allowing the stud to do the deed, and the 3rd natural. The 1st and 3rd were c-sections. All of this costs money. 

"Some basic clearances" Those clearances cost money and protect the breed and the puppies that result. Whether it makes a difference to you is not important. Whether it makes life better for the puppies being bred is. Mother Nature controls when a dog should be bred, and that is not necessarily on the weekend or a day that would fits your schedule. Whether you are "cool" with feeding Purina Puppy Chow or Pedigree, is really not the point, reputable breeders use the extensive experience to decide what is best for very young puppies. Please show me your calculations on how a breeder could sell puppies for $300 and still make lots, because that is absolutely impossible.

Breeders understand that the cost of acquiring a puppy, is only the beginning of the expenses. There is equipment--crates, bowls, leashes, licenses,microchips, vet visits--for shots, spaying, possible illness/accidents (diarrhea/eating things), food--approx $750 or more 1st year, training classes. Any new puppy owner should expect to pay at least $1000 for essentials in the 1st year of a puppies life. I would have grave concerns if a prospective puppy buyer was so worried about the cost of the puppy. Would they be able to afford the care the dog needs? This does not mean that low-income people cannot be excellent owners, but I don't think breeders should compromise their standards to lower the cost of a well bred dog. If you want to buy from a BYB that is your choice, and hopefully your dog will not have health issues later in life or a shortened or painful one because of your choices to support the BYB market.



Golden999 said:


> Also, I don't see haggling on price as being disrespectful. You can always haggle on price. And someone can always say no. But it's not disrespectful if you find a puppy you're interested in and the price exceeds what you can afford to basically say "Hey, here's what I can afford to pay, can we work something out?".



This is a living creature you are buying, not a used car. 

I am glad you found a breeder that you like. Maybe you should post your breeders name so I can make sure I avoid him/her. I have fostered a child and she came with a heck of a lot more restrictions than any puppy I have ever gotten. Anything that is in a breeders contract is in the best interest of the puppy. I do not know of a single breeder that would do a "commando raid" to get a puppy back unless that puppy/dog was being seriously mistreated. A number of years ago there was a time when illness struck and I making plans, "in case" something happened. My breeder agreed it was in the best interest of the dog and my child stay together and go to my appointed guardian. She spoke with the guardian and knew the dog would be well-treated, that was her main concern, and approved the home. i do not believe any reasonable breeder would rejected any home where the dog would be well cared for. 

"I am not giving a tour of my home and sending in references".

The above statement just makes me think you have something to hide. If you don't want to be judged harshly, why do you make posts like this? It is obvious the best interest of the puppy/dog is not your primary concern. It is about your rights to do as you please. 

To have a minority opinion is not an issue. As adults we can all agree to disagree. I do not think because you have a different opinion you are being disrepected but becuase your opinions are not being backed up by fact or experience.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Golden999: Does it bother you at all that the last 2+ pages of this thread are filled with people responding to your repeated (and repeated and repeated and repeated) defense of backyard breeders rather than the information the OP came here to ask for? It bothers me. I'm willing to bet it bothers the OP a fair bit too. 

The poster didn't ask whether she should go to a reputable breeder or call the nearest BYB with an oops or "so-the-kids-can-see-the-miracle-of-life" litter who advertised in their local newspaper. She asked what range of cost to expect from a reputable breeder who is performing clearances (and by extension whether people thought this particular breeder performed to a level deserving of an $1800 price tag). 

If you want to continue to repeat this discussion over and over and over again, do it in threads you create. If someone is asking whether they should buy a puppy out of the newspaper or off of Craig's List -- by all means, drop in and give your opinion. But please - pretty, pretty please - stop turning every thread with the word "breeder" in the title into your own personal playground. Let the members of this forum provide the support and information someone is actually asking for when they start a thread.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

dancingmanatee said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> 
> However, there is an issue -- the price.
> ...


$1800 seems to be on the high end. Most breeders through the center of the country are in the $1000 - $1500 range. 


A golden living to 17? That would be a rare occurance, and not something anybody can guarantee. (On average, goldens live between 10 and 15 years.)


You need to ask your friend how old his dog is. Today's $1000 dog was $750 to $800 five years ago. Everything associated with keeping, raising, training, showing and breeding a retriever has gone up in price over the last five years so it's not unusual that the price of a puppy has gone up too.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Golden999: Does it bother you at all that the last 2+ pages of this thread are filled with people responding to your repeated (and repeated and repeated and repeated) defense of backyard breeders rather than the information the OP came here to ask for? It bothers me. I'm willing to bet it bothers the OP a fair bit too.
> 
> The poster didn't ask whether she should go to a reputable breeder or call the nearest BYB with an oops or "so-the-kids-can-see-the-miracle-of-life" litter who advertised in their local newspaper. She asked what range of cost to expect from a reputable breeder who is performing clearances (and by extension whether people thought this particular breeder performed to a level deserving of an $1800 price tag).
> 
> ...


Someone posted a thread asking what is a troll, perfect example. We should all stop feeding this troll.

OP, if you contact the local Golden Retriever Club in your area or state, they might be able to tell you if that price is typical of the area or not. I'm sorry our thread got hijacked by the troll.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

To Dancingmanatee, please check the "choosing a breeder" section of this forum and look at past threads for reputable breeders in Colorado. There are many excellent suggestions on some of those threads, most of whom have prices lower than what Hayes' dogs are going for. I have sent you a personal message on this forum, but you can't reply until you've posted 15 times.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I looked at many of the breeders listed with the mile high golden retriever club
Finding a Puppy

Every single one was asking 1200, all parents have all clearances that go back a few generations.
This was only 6 months ago.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> Actually, I did in one particular thread see a line by line break down of breeder costs. I replied to that with a line by line explanation of where I thought things were being done that were unnecessary or were done at too high of a price tag.


And it was highly illuminating to watch you knock stuff off that you didn't feel was necessary despite several experienced breeders who vouched for the fact that each of those costs was extremely conservative. It was also interesting to watch you refuse to pay for things you don't understand—as you did again in this post—like progesterone testing, which actually _saves_ money.



Golden999 said:


> someone like me who was just looking for a pet when I got my dog, and not a dog to show, breed, or have compete on dog shows.


I'm looking for "just" a pet too. Neither of my dogs has a serious future in competition, and neither is strong enough conformationally to win in the show ring. As you've been told many, many times before, it's not about getting a competition dog for yourself. There's only a couple of those in each litter. The "just" a pet dogs, though, need "just" as big a shot at a long, healthy life free from expensive and painful medical conditions. That's what it's about. Not status, not unnecessary frills that you pay for because you like to pay more. You're paying to stack the deck in your dog's favor, and by doing it right up front, you save money in the long run.



Golden999 said:


> I can't remember everything, because it went on at length, and my memory for that kind of stuff isn't great, but things were included like the cost of having their puppy's parents shown and compete in field competitions, the cost of missing work to hang out with the mother for a week or two while she hangs out with the prospective father, the cost of flying across the country to find a stud dog, the cost of sending the mother to a zillion different vet specialists, feeding raw meat, etc.. At one point, the list started talking about extracting semen samples like you'd do with a race horse and then I *really* stopped being able to really take it seriously.


Your memory is pretty poor, since pretty much nothing you've mentioned here is in that post.



Golden999 said:


> I understand why some basic clearances would be beneficial.


Then why don't you see that multigenerational clearances are that much more beneficial?



Golden999 said:


> They can find a local stud dog with a good temperament, get the deed done on the weekend, take the mother to the local regular non-specialist vet, get some basic health clearances (Ideally, though I had to do without when I got my dog), and feed the puppies Purina or Pedigree puppy chow, and I'm cool with that. Then they could sell for like $300 and still make lots of money.


A few times in these threads, I really think you might just be trolling for attention, and when you write stuff like this, my BS sensor tingles. Even if you were completely right in cutting every single thing you wanted to cut, do you really feel that you cut 95% of the stuff on the list so that grossing $3000 off a litter (assuming it's a particularly large, particularly healthy litter) leaves you "lots of money"?



Golden999 said:


> Some of these breeders either don't care or don't understand that a lot of low-income folks are just looking for basic pets, not the next champion on the USA Network's big dog show, and can't afford to pay a fortune.


For the bajillionth time, *a fully cleared dog from competitive parents is the cheapest dog you can get*. Dogs are expensive. They want to eat like every single day, they get injured, and they get hereditary diseases. Putting your hands over your ears because the upfront price looks cheaper is just bad money sense. Forget—for a moment—the fact that you put a dog at risk for suffering. *It's still bad financial planning to skimp on the upfront price and buy a riskier dog.*



Golden999 said:


> As long as breeders show that lack of understanding or caring, they'll always be a market for backyard breeders, and I'll always be part of it when looking for a dog.


Or, more accurately, because it's basic human nature to want what you want when you want it and to underestimate risks that are further away in time, unscrupulous people will be able to overcharge for risky dogs.

If you can afford food and basic vet care, you can afford a $1200-$1800 purchase price to help stack the deck in your financial favor. Even if you get one for free, a dog costs well over $100/month, especially in the first year. Wait a year and save the $1200. Don't play the instant gratification game and throw your $300 at a breeder who produces high risk puppies, because not only do you screw yourself financially, but you put a puppy at risk for pain and suffering down the road. And, if that weren't enough, you've just showed a backyard breeder that it makes financial sense to do it again.



Golden999 said:


> I personally want (and found) a breeder who understands that once I buy a dog, the dog is mine to raise in whatever way I see fit. I'm not leasing the dog or babysitting the dog for the breeder. If I were babysitting, I'd expect to be paid, not to pay.  Some of these contracts contain terms that potential adoptive parents would never accept for _human_ children (I know, because my parents adopted some children after they were done having their biological children), let alone a dog. No one has the right to do a commando raid to take back a dog, as some of a friends' in-laws experienced, or tell me exactly what I must feed my dog, or mandate that I neuter if I don't want to, or tell me I can't leave my dog to relatives instead of return it to the breeder if I die, or tell me that I can't have a dog because I live in apartment, or whatever arbitrary conditions they impose. I just don't find it acceptable.


If you don't find it acceptable, then don't enter into the contract. But be aware that you aren't going to find a good breeder who's all done with the dogs when they leave the property. Good breeders and those who wash their hands of the dogs are two separate categories. If you have problem with one element of a contract, you build a relationship and you discuss it with the breeder. One of my breeders feeds raw and really wants me to. She also knows that I will never, in a million years, feed raw. We talked about it and came to an understanding. I also got a dog from a well-titled ancestry with a clearance pedigree as long as your arm for 1/2 the normal purchase price because the breeder knew precisely what his life was going to be like.

A dog isn't an adopted child, but a dog is more like a child than he is like a refrigerator. If you want a low-risk dog with great breed type and temperament, you have to accept that. If you're willing to take big gambles with your money and with your dog's health, there are plenty of breeders for you.



Golden999 said:


> Maybe I just have a minority opinion on the forum and thus am thus not being respected by the group. I'm sure a lot of folks here would experience that feeling of being in the minority on a non-dog forum if they had this same discussion and expressed the opinions that they're lauded for here.


The problem isn't that you're in a minority. You have plenty of company in advocating for this mythical group of "good" BYBs. The problem is that you're on a forum where most folks are familiar with the cold, hard data on health and temperament problems in Golden Retrievers and the best practices for improving them.


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

To the OP. I do not know in your area what the going rates are, but here (Wisconsin) I have seen anywhere from 750 and up. My main concern would be that the four main health clearances (at the very least) are done and done right, I also like to see that they have some working titles and a CCA or a conformation title and some other tittles such as obedience. I also want to meet the parents and see their temperments. I also want a good guarantee for the first two years minimum and really prefer longer terms.

The price of the puppy whether high or low doesn't mean a thing to me if the "meat" of their clearances etc isn't there. 1800 seems high for my area, but each area is a bit different from what I've seen here. 

I wish you luck in finding your right puppy and breeder. We are a less than a week away from our puppy being born (hopefully), she will be a Christmas puppy as well...not what we ideally wanted for a time line, but the dam and sire are wonderful and the timeline just fell that way.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I am super sensitive as Golden999 goes after breeders and vets, so I am doubly affected...


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## pandamonium (Apr 18, 2012)

I think I love you tippykayak!


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> The problem isn't that you're in a minority. You have plenty of company in advocating for this mythical group of "good" BYBs. *The problem is that you're on a forum where most folks are familiar with the cold, hard data on health and temperament problems in Golden Retrievers and the best practices for improving them.*


And this is a forum where we support those that are responsible and ethical in their breeding practices. 

If you want respect and accolades for your support of BYBs, maybe you should find a forum with like minded individuals. I'm not saying that you should leave here, just that if you want that respect for your opinions, then you'd have a place to go and you wouldn't have to try so hard here...cuz it ain't gonna happen.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Golden999: Does it bother you at all that the last 2+ pages of this thread are filled with people responding to your repeated (and repeated and repeated and repeated) defense of backyard breeders rather than the information the OP came here to ask for? It bothers me. I'm willing to bet it bothers the OP a fair bit too.
> 
> The poster didn't ask whether she should go to a reputable breeder or call the nearest BYB with an oops or "so-the-kids-can-see-the-miracle-of-life" litter who advertised in their local newspaper. She asked what range of cost to expect from a reputable breeder who is performing clearances (and by extension whether people thought this particular breeder performed to a level deserving of an $1800 price tag).


Hey, she asked whether or not she should pay $1800 for a puppy and I gave her an answer. That's on-topic. I have every right to my opinion on this topic, just as you do.

I made one post, replying to the original poster, then a zillion people jumped down my throat, and of course here and there I replied. If you feel like that derails the discussion, which it probably does, then blame the people who are replying to me and not to the original poster. _I _was replying to the original poster. Stop trying to bully me into not expressing my opinion and answering questions. Instead, exercise some self-control and stop arguing with me and let me have my opinion and respond in my own way to questions when they're asked without being harangued.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> A
> For the bajillionth time, a fully cleared dog from competitive parents is the cheapest dog you can get. Dogs are expensive. They want to eat like every single day, they get injured, and they get hereditary diseases. Putting your hands over your ears because the upfront price looks cheaper is just bad money sense. Forget—for a moment—the fact that you put a dog at risk for suffering. It's still bad financial planning to skimp on the upfront price and buy a riskier dog.


You say that, but everyone I've ever met with a dog who I've talked to about where their dog came from either got their dog from a backyard breeder, a shelter (/pound/humane society/whatever), or a rescue. While I recognize that big expenses can occur, of the people I've encountered, they haven't in most cases. The odds are decent that what's going to happen with a golden is that it's going to live to be 10-12, get cancer, and die- with or without doggie chemo (And trust me, that's not meant as callous, my beloved childhood pet died of cancer and it was very upsetting for me). I can only think of one person who's paid for anything beyond food, basic veterinary care, vaccines, and preventatives (and I know some who skip the vet in favor of shot clinics, or don't even do heartworm and flea/tick prevention, though I've encouraged them to get those preventatives). Oh, and some basic stuff like allergy meds or steroids where needed. One guy got a benign growth removed from his dog- that's the most expensive thing anyone has done.

All dogs are risky. All humans are risky. Life is risky. But I think, on average, you'll find the lifetime cost of dog ownership is cheaper when you start out not paying a fortune. But of course it's up to the buyer- I wouldn't suggest otherwise. Just offering my opinion, because I was asked.



kwhit said:


> And this is a forum where we support those that are responsible and ethical in their breeding practices.
> 
> If you want respect and accolades for your support of BYBs, maybe you should find a forum with like minded individuals.


Do you know of a forum like that? Serious question, because if it's out there, it'd be worth a look. I haven't seen a forum like that, though, I think because the average dog owner, a percentage of whom might have those opinions, isn't as "into dogs" beyond his particular dog that he owns, to go seek out an Internet forum. It's sort of the radicalized folks who are really, really into stuff who tend to post in a forum. Which is a problem a lot of Internet forums run into- they tend to attract like minded groups of people with one strong opinion that you are told not to speak out against, because the moderates just don't care enough to hang out on a forum, and when they do, they tend to get jumped on and leave because some Internet fight isn't worth it to them. But those people would like a forum, and it's a shame it doesn't exist in many cases. I don't mean that just when it comes to golden retrievers or dogs- I see this on all sorts of different topics.



Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> I constantly see Golden Retriever ads in our local newspaper. I don't really consider these people "breeders" just because they have puppies. When we decided to bring another golden into our house (our 4th), we didn't choose to get one from the classified ads. Totally our choice.
> 
> Of course, there is a market. Why else would there be five ads in last Sunday's paper for golden retriever puppies for $400?
> 
> ...


I've got no problem with what you're saying. We can agree to disagree and each do our own thing when it comes to purchasing puppies. And there can be different types of breeders who do things different ways with different price points. But I do think some people want this world to be a more restrictive place with fewer options when it comes to stuff like that, because they've told me as much on this forum in the past- and that does bother me.



Nairb said:


> Are the BYBs you refer to in it for the money? Why do they have a litter? Was it an "oops?" It's an honest question.


I can't read minds, but if I had to guess, I'd say there's a portion of folks who just want their pets to have the experience of mating, and want themselves and/or their family to have the experience of raising some young puppies in their earliest months along with the mother dog. There are also probably some accidental litters. And there are the people looking to make some money. And there are folks with a mixture of those motivations, and other motivations entirely. I don't think everyone is the same.

Some backyard breeders probably aren't that different from the folks with the fancy websites and the expensive prices who say they're doing it as a hobby because they love dogs. It's just that those BYB in that category probably see certain expenses as unreasonable or beyond their means, and also feel like it's a good thing to be able to provide puppies at lower prices to people who want a dog for companionship but find the prices some breeders charge either unreasonable or beyond their means.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

Golden999 said:


> If you feel like that derails the discussion, which it probably does, then blame the people who are replying to me and not to the original poster. _I _was replying to the original poster. Stop trying to bully me into not expressing my opinion and answering questions. Instead, exercise some self-control and stop arguing with me and let me have my opinion and respond in my own way to questions when they're asked without being harangued.


First, to the OP I apologize for how this thread has evolved. Your request was simple, and you deserve informed and well thought out answers to your question.

In my opinion is that the cost of a well bred puppy from a reputable breeder is well-worth the expense. I am in Canada and I believe most GR pups are in the $1000 to $1500, I would find $1800 a bit expensive, but it may not be in your area. The lifetime support reputable breeder offers is worth its weight in gold. They are concerned and interested in the puppies they bred for the entire life of the puppy. They will patiently answer all the questions of a new puppy owner, they reassure "what your puppy is doing is normal", they answer their phone in the middle of the night, sometimes they have advice to prevent a trip to the vet, provide advice regarding training and behaviour issues, they celebrate your dogs accomplishments and mourn your loss, when that time inevitably comes. There is a lot of merit to the statement "you get what you pay for." 

@Golden999: Nowhere, do I see any poster "blaming" the OP for the turn this thread has taken.

Just because I or any other poster on this forum does not agree with your opinion does not mean we are bullying you, nor does it mean you cannot express your opinion. I did not see anyone suggest you could not answer questions or express your opinions.

Maybe, you should take your own advice and use some self-control and quit arguing. Mature differences of opinion are helpful, ill-researched or thought out opinions are not. You insult breeders with years of experience, by suggesting, you think, what they are doing to protect the GR breed is unnecessary and adding expense to the cost of a puppy. On what experience or education do base this on?


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Golden999 said:


> What I've been saying, though, is that there is a market out there for dogs that aren't show or fielding champions and are just decent examples of their breed who'd make good pets, who'd cost less. You can have your luxury line with championship bloodlines being fed raw food and where there's some sort of flight across the country to find a sire, and you can have your pet lines where they're just decent well mannered goldens bred locally and fed normal dog food and examined by their local vet. Some folks don't seem to think the latter idea is okay, but not everyone can afford or requires a championship dog. Some people just want a golden retriever puppy who's reasonably priced, reasonably representative of his breed, and has been looked over by a local vet and cleared of health issues.


I can certainly understand where you are coming from. Reality dictates that responsible breeding is done by breeders who do show their dogs. For the most part at least reputable breeders are also those who show their dogs. I do not endorse the breeding of BYBs, but I can certainly understand aspiring Golden owners wanting just a pet, and nothing fancy. I can see how at least people new to purebred dogs would bewildered as to why even pet Goldens should only be bought from those who show Goldens. Unfortunately, it is not the same as purchasing a more affordable refrigerator from a variety of different models for instance. I was wondering that myself for a while also. I could have bought from a substandard breeder who didn't show their Goldens, but I knew I could do better than that. I was thinking alot of show breeders were stuck up even though the dogs were desirable as soon as a year ago and worried about whether they would approve me for a Golden. Even if I had been denied a Golden by reputable breeders, I would have still stuck to my guns and refused to buy from a BYB. It's hard for me even to not think that some are over the top. What I also see is the dedication to the breed and it's embetterment. They are more passionate about their dogs than BYBs are, and that is a good thing. As harsh as it sounds, breeders are not breeding for the benefit of puppy buyers. The needs of the dogs trump the needs of the pet owners. That's not necessarily a bad thing. They are not exclusively marketing to puppy buyers either. They wish to make sure that the puppies that they have sweated over and no doubt have become attached to go to homes that they can trust. The puppies sold to pet homes are considered the surplus after breeding for the purpose of producing offspring that they can keep and show.

Sometimes I hope that like service dogs, that some reputably bred Goldens can be selected for people who need emoitonal support dogs (not everyone who claims to need one, but only a select few who can prove their need for a dog to comfort them in public) They might already do this. It would be nice if once in a while a breeder donated a puppy as a gift to someone who could use a lift after losing a loved one for instance. It just doesn't happen though. They are also not to be expected to sell their puppies at a reduced rate to anyone. I am sure there are many who turn to BYBs after being turned down by a reputable breeder (for reasons other than money) who woulld have rather gotten a higher quality bred dog. It doesn't make it right. If it were me, I would keep looking and looking until someone approved me. Not all reputable breeders do home checks, but some do.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> You say that, but everyone I've ever met with a dog who I've talked to about where their dog came from either got their dog from a backyard breeder, a shelter (/pound/humane society/whatever), or a rescue. While I recognize that big expenses can occur, of the people I've encountered, they haven't in most cases.


The chances of hip or elbow dysplasia are 10-20% in Golden Retrievers out of uncleared parents and pedigrees. That's a $5000 surgery. I'm glad your friends have been lucky so far, but anecdote isn't evidence. The extra $1000 on the upfront price for a properly bred dog cuts the risks of two $5000 surgeries in half—at the very least.

And that's just two of a dozen expensive problems that a good breeder is helping cut back on.

You can bury your head in the sand all you want, but that doesn't change the cold, hard facts and probabilities. 



Golden999 said:


> All dogs are risky. All humans are risky. Life is risky. But I think, on average, you'll find the lifetime cost of dog ownership is cheaper when you start out not paying a fortune. But of course it's up to the buyer- I wouldn't suggest otherwise. Just offering my opinion, because I was asked.


Calling everything "risky" ignores the difference in amounts of risk. Responsible behavior is about risk management. And this isn't just about opinions. You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts, and in this case, your ignorance of the facts leads you to advocate for something that puts dogs at risk for suffering. That's not OK.

You also, by the way, insult good breeders pretty frequently, which is also not just a simple expression of opinion either.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Remind me never to get into an argument with tippykayak.

Game. Set. Match.


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## painted golden (Aug 17, 2009)

This thread reminds me of how much dog owner/breeding has changed in the 32 years I have owned and raised Goldens. We did not have the means to check up on hip,eye,elbow and heart clearances so easily in the past. 

We have come so far in the age of the internet with databases and technology.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

painted golden said:


> This thread reminds me of how much dog owner/breeding has changed in the 32 years I have owned and raised Goldens. We did not have the means to check up on hip,eye,elbow and heart clearances so easily in the past.
> 
> We have come so far in the age of the internet with databases and technology.


this is so true.... my mentor is an old time breeder and she is amazed at all the information that exists, for better or worse. It makes the whole breeding issue very tricky... the question is whether the devil you know better than the devil you don't know ... and that is a really good question. 

I remember when I got my first flat coat as an adult... she was laying on the seat in between my husband and I on the way home... this absolutely beautiful perfect little girl and my husband and I drove home in awe of her... of how beautiful and perfect she was.... over the years of showing and competing and breeding I now see the dogs so differently... I look at the puppies critically... I see every flaw and every turned in hock and every cowlick... and there are times I wish I could just go back to those days of looking at the puppies just as a pet ... as a magnificent pet... but when you breed there are so many more things to think about... 

It is different to be a breeder, we love our dogs but look at them differently and that is kind of sad sometimes. I love my puppy people and I love the puppies but it is hard work and it does change how you view the dogs a bit... and it is very discouraging to read threads like this...


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Please don't be discouraged.... Thank you from the people that are trying to show and complete with our puppies. 20 years ago my 1st golden was from a lady breeding two dogs on her farm..We went out to a barn to pick the puppy. I picked the cutest little boy I could find so I could show him in obedience when he was old enough. Yep he lived to 15 years old. Shall I tell you the money I spent on those 15 years keeping his allergies under control. I was able to show him to get his CD and then I had to retire him. He was a great family pet and was spoiled rotten but there were many times he was miserable. He had to have shots every 21 days for 10 years. 17years ago my University visit for the Allergy test, syrum, needles ect..... $900.00 and then the vials every couple months..
I was determined to not ever go through that again.. so 8 years later I started doing my homework and found the boy who is my current obedience dog. He is out of a sire that was doing the same things I wanted to do with my dog and was still going strong at 9 years old. Titan and I have been showing for 7 years and he is in excellent health and has always has. I would not be able to do what we have with a dog that is not. Sure there are cheaper ways to go.. but what is cheaper. I would much rather spend money up front with a good breeder that stands behind their lines and does all the required clearances everytime. Just my two cents..


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Titan1 said:


> Please don't be discouraged.... Thank you from the people that are trying to show and complete with our puppies. 20 years ago my 1st golden was from a lady breeding two dogs on her farm..We went out to a barn to pick the puppy. I picked the cutest little boy I could find so I could show him in obedience when he was old enough. Yep he lived to 15 years old. Shall I tell you the money I spent on those 15 years keeping his allergies under control. I was able to show him to get his CD and then I had to retire him. He was a great family pet and was spoiled rotten but there were many times he was miserable. He had to have shots every 21 days for 10 years. 17years ago my University visit for the Allergy test, syrum, needles ect..... $900.00 and then the vials every couple months..
> I was determined to not ever go through that again.. so 8 years later I started doing my homework and found the boy who is my current obedience dog. He is out of a sire that was doing the same things I wanted to do with my dog and was still going strong at 9 years old. Titan and I have been showing for 7 years and he is in excellent health and has always has. I would not be able to do what we have with a dog that is not. Sure there are cheaper ways to go.. but what is cheaper. I would much rather spend money up front with a good breeder that stands behind their lines and does all the required clearances everytime. Just my two cents..


Sorry to hear about your dog suffering from allergies. But unfortunately I don't really think this is something you won't find in dogs from reputable breeders. My Cody had seasonal allergies as well.


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## Summer'sDad (Oct 22, 2012)

I didnt pay near as much for my Golden girl Summer. But she got sickand went to the Rainbow Bridge when she was only 3 years old. Vet bills were in excess of $3000.00 and the heartbreak was Millions. So my opinion is that you can't pay to much for a good breed


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Sorry to hear about your dog suffering from allergies. But unfortunately I don't really think this is something you won't find in dogs from reputable breeders. My Cody had seasonal allergies as well.


I understand that.....


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Titan1 said:


> I understand that.....


 
LOL! I know YOU do.


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## LeilaM (Sep 14, 2012)

My family is also looking to add a golden retriever to our family so I understand how hard it is to search for a great breeder with a pup that will be a good fit for you. I have four kids and telling them we may have to wait a bit is hard. I certainly understand once you have your heart set on a puppy you want one right away, but keep in mind socializing a new puppy and potty training in the winter may be harder.. depending on your geography and cold tolerance. Can you ask for vacation time in the spring?

Also, if the boyfriend is weary of spending money on the cost of the puppy how will he feel when the other expenses start to add up? Vet bills.. food... supplies..obedience classes. These end up costing far more than the original purchase price of the dog even in a healthy dog with no unexpected medical expenses. There was an excellent article in Forbes magazine that talked about how spending the extra money on a well bred dog adds up to only about a quarter a day over the life of the dog. Without meaning to get too personal could it be that he doesn't really want a dog...but if he can at least get one somewhat cheaply he'll tolerate the idea. If you both aren't really on board perhaps its not the best time to get a puppy. I'm sorry if I'm stepping on toes but could it be the reason you want the dog now is because you're afraid he might change his mind about the dog altogether. I apologize if I'm way off base.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

I've only had Goldens for a little over 7 years, a babe in the woods compared to a lot of you here. I don't look at Goldens as critically as I do Great Danes. Danes were my breed for over 30 years. My first Dane, Jake, was a BYB Dane. This was 38 yrs. ago. There were a lot less Danes then, somewhat uncommon. Jake looked like a Dane even though he was carelessly bred. A world of health issues though, OCD in his shoulder, digestion issues, passed away at 5 from complications of bloat, (which I believe is, at least somehow, genetically connected).

Fast forward to today and BYBs have _ruined_ the Dane breed to a large extent. I can tell a BYB Dane from a mile away. The majority don't even look like Danes anymore. They look like Greyhounds. Roached backs, small heads, (and a nice head piece is the landmark of the breed), no lip, small size, too bulky where they look like Mastiffs or Neos, _very aggressive_ temperaments and the list goes on and on. 

Examples of a well bred Dane and a BYB Dane. The Harlequin is actually a BYB's stud. :doh: Look at his back end, he can't even stand correctly, (can anyone say health testing). :no:



This is where my extremely stong opinion of BYBs comes from. *I can't stand them.*  They have no business breeding dogs of any breed. I know they're doing it to Goldens, too, but my eye is not as trained to see it in the Golden breed. I'm sure the breeders on this board go crazy thinking about what BYBs are doing to their breed. 

What I do know is that we all love our breeds for what they are _supposed_ to be, both structurally and temperamentally. We will eventually lose a lot that if BYBs are continually supported instead of breeders that breed within the standard and that makes me very, very sad.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

kwhit said:


> I've only had Goldens for a little over 7 years, a babe in the woods compared to a lot of you here. I don't look at Goldens as critically as I do Great Danes. Danes were my breed for over 30 years. My first Dane, Jake, was a BYB Dane. This was 38 yrs. ago. There were a lot less Danes then, somewhat uncommon. Jake looked like a Dane even though he was carelessly bred. A world of health issues though, OCD in his shoulder, digestion issues, passed away at 5 from complications of bloat, (which I believe is, at least somehow, genetically connected).
> 
> Fast forward to today and BYBs have _ruined_ the Dane breed to a large extent. I can tell a BYB Dane from a mile away. The majority don't even look like Danes anymore. They look like Greyhounds. Roached backs, small heads, (and a nice head piece is the landmark of the breed), no lip, small size, too bulky where they look like Mastiffs or Neos, _very aggressive_ temperaments and the list goes on and on.
> 
> ...


Wow!! Point taken! That's very sad, not really knowing anything about Danes I can see the problems with the BYB. Of all of the info given in this forum against BYB this post really hammers it home!!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Bentleysmom said:


> Wow!! Point taken! That's very sad, not really knowing anything about Danes I can see the problems with the BYB. Of all of the info given in this forum against BYB this post really hammers it home!!


 
This has been happening for ages in all breeds, however I could post some pictures of goldens and you wouldn't be able to tell who bred them


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> This has been happening for ages in all breeds, however I could post some pictures of goldens and you wouldn't be able to tell who bred them


It has been happening but not to the extent that it is now. The internet plays a huge part in this. Makes it much easier to reach tons more people. BYBs have slick websites and know what to say to people. 

Plus, it's not all about structure, it's about temperament issues, also. Can you imagine trying to deal with a 180 lb. dog with a bad attitude? Especially for a novice that didn't have a clue as to what to look for in a breeder in the first place. Then...those dogs are usually given up to rescue or euthanized. But usually, it's after they've done _huge_ damage in one way or another.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

kwhit said:


> What I do know is that we all love our breeds for what they are _supposed_ to be, both structurally and temperamentally. We will eventually lose a lot that if BYBs are continually supported instead of breeders that breed within the standard and that makes me very, very sad.


One way to discourage people from supporting backyard breeders would be for the breeders who are deemed more reputable to offer their puppies at competitive prices with the backyard breeders, and at competitive terms (i.e. no contracts). I'm not saying breeders should be forced to do that, I'm just saying that's the only way you guys are going to win this battle. Otherwise, there will always be folks who can't afford your puppies or don't want to pay the price, and who don't want to deal with the contractual terms, and go elsewhere. That's just reality. 

Personal opinions on breeding practices aside, I just think from a logical objective perspective that backyard breeders exist because they meet market needs. Those market needs are lower prices and no contractual restrictions. Some folks will always want or need that, and thus will always keep that market around for backyard breeders _unless _other non-BYB breeders start to meet those market needs in some way.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> One way to discourage people from supporting backyard breeders would be for the breeders who are deemed more reputable to offer their puppies at competitive prices with the backyard breeders, and at competitive terms (i.e. no contracts).


Your reasoning is flawed because a lot of BYBs charge just as much if not more that the good breeders. Also, I've said this before...people need to save up for what they want. If we can teach our kids, by example, to not have the _"I want it now"_ mentality, we'd be instilling a valuable lesson that can be applied to many aspects of their lives. You apparently have that mentality because you didn't have either the desire or the discipline to be able to "afford" a well bred puppy. 

I believe there will always be BYBs, not because of price, but because there will always be buyers like you that want a puppy now without any thought to their upbringing or breeding. You just want to walk in slap your money down and have a puppy put in your arms. You couldn't care less about what that breeder is doing to the breed as a whole or what they will do to it in the future. To h*ll with anything else as long as you got your puppy. Me, me, me...that seems to be your mantra. 



Golden999 said:


> Personal opinions on breeding practices aside, I just think from a logical objective perspective that backyard breeders exist because they meet market needs.


What you seem to not be able to get through your head is that good breeders don't breed for the demand of the puppy market or for Joe Public. They breed for the betterment of the breed. Period. And _that_ is what we need to support.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

kwhit said:


> What you seem to not be able to get through your head is that good breeders don't breed for the demand of the puppy market or for Joe Public. They breed for the betterment of the breed. Period. And _that_ is what we need to support.


Although I do own Goldens from a BYB, I am not condoning them. I also am not being confrontational, but I'm just curious as how this is done. I hear this all the time but I've seen on numerous breeder websites that they are doing a "repeat breeding" of a certain dam and sire. How is that bettering the breed? Are you not going to end up with similar puppies from the repeat breeding than you did with the initial breeding? Just curious, that's all!!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> They can find a local stud dog with a good temperament, get the deed done on the weekend, take the mother to the local regular non-specialist vet, get some basic health clearances (Ideally, though I had to do without when I got my dog), and feed the puppies Purina or Pedigree puppy chow, and I'm cool with that. Then they could sell for like $300 and still make lots of money.



One thing that gets missed in the tone of the responsible breeder bashing is the love for the mother dog and the nervousness at risking her health to have puppies. You bet a reproductive specialist is important, and clearances for five generations on both sides, plus proof -positive that many, many objective sources have judged and verified that she is a credit to her breed and has something important to contribute through her puppies. Otherwise, that loved girl should be spayed, as that is much safer for her health. There is no way there is a stud dog somewhere in town with a decent temperament who could create cheapo pets for people who resent careful breeders as somehow elitest. Goldens have lots of health risks in the best case scenario of cautious, thorough research and loose linebreeding on hardy, healthy dogs. To play gentic roulette by outcrossing with some random dog just bc he is also a golden is foolhardy and irresponsible. No puppy price could ever make a dent in what it takes to show a golden to a GR CH, but a decent price can protect a puppy. When I read posts lambasting good breeders, I just think how Lushie's pups can just go to close friends and families for free or for donations to Yankee Golden Rescue so I do not ever have to worry about them falling into hands that do not appreciate the years of work and study it took before bringing them into the world, and the years of work put into the breeding program that produced her.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Laurie said:


> Although I do own Goldens from a BYB, I am not condoning them. I also am not being confrontational, but I'm just curious as how this is done. I hear this all the time but I've seen on numerous breeder websites that they are doing a "repeat breeding" of a certain dam and sire. How is that bettering the breed? Are you not going to end up with similar puppies from the repeat breeding than you did with the initial breeding? Just curious, that's all!!


I also have a BYB, HVB Golden and he's my heart. But like you, I don't condone them, (obviously ). 

A repeat breeding would take place, IMO, because the puppies turned out better than the parents and were what the breeder was trying to accomplish in the pairing. That's what I've always believed, but not being a breeder myself, I could be totally off base. 

Hope the breeders on the board will answer, also.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Laurie said:


> Although I do own Goldens from a BYB, I am not condoning them. I also am not being confrontational, but I'm just curious as how this is done. I hear this all the time but I've seen on numerous breeder websites that they are doing a "repeat breeding" of a certain dam and sire. How is that bettering the breed? Are you not going to end up with similar puppies from the repeat breeding than you did with the initial breeding? Just curious, that's all!!


The breeding that produced Bella will be repeated (I don't know when), because they were both very pleased with the results, and want to keep one next time. I don't know why they didn't keep one the first time. They had not planned on doing so from the beginning. Only room and time for so many dogs, I guess.


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## BenP (Mar 28, 2009)

Swampcollie said:


> A golden living to 17? That would be a rare occurance, and not something anybody can guarantee. (On average, goldens live between 10 and 15 years.).


If the breeder the OP is talking to said this, I would advise to look elsewhere. 

Everything I've read states that 13 or thereabouts is your upper age. 17? Perhaps, for toy breeds. 

The breeder the OP is talking about just seems like they're trying to maximize revenues.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I NEVER do repeat breedings... this is something that was drilled into my brain because I come from flat coats which has such a miniscule gene pool that repeat breeding is frowned upon. I understand the rationale ... if the puppies are better than the parents and depending on how many were sold to show homes where they might then add to the gene pool vs. where none of the pups or one of the pups are in show homes where they may be bred...or if the breeder wanted a bitch but there were no show quality bitches.. I get it... but I personally don't do it...


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

Shalva said:


> I NEVER do repeat breedings... this is something that was drilled into my brain because I come from flat coats which has such a miniscule gene pool that repeat breeding is frowned upon. I understand the rationale ... if the puppies are better than the parents and depending on how many were sold to show homes where they might then add to the gene pool vs. where none of the pups or one of the pups are in show homes where they may be bred...or if the breeder wanted a bitch but there were no show quality bitches.. I get it... but I personally don't do it...


 
But wouldn't it make some sense until the puppies from the initial breeding mature to see if they actually are better than the parents? I've seen some repeat breedings being done when the initial breeding puppies are still that, just puppies.

Sorry for the questions, I'm just trying to learn!!!


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Laurie said:


> But wouldn't it make some sense until the puppies from the initial breeding mature to see if they actually are better than the parents? I've seen some repeat breedings being done when the initial breeding puppies are still that, just puppies.
> 
> Sorry for the questions, I'm just trying to learn!!!


Yes I agree with this.... how do you know unless you can wait until you see clearances and adult growth, temperament.... all of that... I totally agree... I have seen repeat breedings done before it is possible to really know.... so yeah ... I agree with you ... 

again... I don't do them... in flat coats it is drilled into our head that the more diversity in the breed th better because of the tiny gene pool (all flat coats go back to two litters at WWII) so we just don't do them ... that was a big surprise to me when I came over to goldens... the whole repeat breeding thing.... I just can't wrap my head around it... if the goal is to better the breed and no dog is perfect then this litter you just had is not perfect so wouldn't you want to try something else next time in hopes of continuing movement toward that perfect dog... ??? but thats a whole nother conversation for a whole nother day ...


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Shalva said:


> Yes I agree with this.... how do you know unless you can wait until you see clearances and adult growth, temperament.... all of that... I totally agree... I have seen repeat breedings done before it is possible to really know.... so yeah ... I agree with you ...
> 
> again... I don't do them... in flat coats it is drilled into our head that the more diversity in the breed th better because of the tiny gene pool (all flat coats go back to two litters at WWII) so we just don't do them ... that was a big surprise to me when I came over to goldens... the whole repeat breeding thing.... I just can't wrap my head around it... if the goal is to better the breed and no dog is perfect then this litter you just had is not perfect so wouldn't you want to try something else next time in hopes of continuing movement toward that perfect dog... ??? but thats a whole nother conversation for a whole nother day ...


You likely know more about this stuff than I ever will, but if every puppy in the original litter was sold with a limited registration, those concerns are eliminated, correct?


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Nairb said:


> You likely know more about this stuff than I ever will, but if every puppy in the original litter was sold with a limited registration, those concerns are eliminated, correct?


well the initial concerns are as they aren't adding to the gene pool so yeah those would be but then comes the basic question of what is the purpose of a repeat breeding??? if the goal is to get to the perfect golden... or whatever breed ... then you see what you have ... why not try something else to see if that gets you there... this is a philosophical question... and I don't think there is a right or wrong... it is just how I think of it.. and hey I could be convinced otherwise... it is something that I think about often...


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

Shalva said:


> well the initial concerns are as they aren't adding to the gene pool so yeah those would be but then comes the basic question of what is the purpose of a repeat breeding??? if the goal is to get to the perfect golden... or whatever breed ... then you see what you have ... why not try something else to see if that gets you there... this is a philosophical question... and I don't think there is a right or wrong... it is just how I think of it.. and hey I could be convinced otherwise... it is something that I think about often...


 
So, in my eyes, breeders who are doing repeat breedings are essentially breeding to provide puppies to the public because there is a demand for them, not necessarily for the betterment of the breed.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Laurie said:


> But wouldn't it make some sense until the puppies from the initial breeding mature to see if they actually are better than the parents? I've seen some repeat breedings being done when the initial breeding puppies are still that, just puppies.


Great point! One of the breeders that did a repeat, (that I know of), before the puppies matured out knows her lines so well, it was obvious to her and many other breeders who evaluated the puppies that they were exceptional. She only did it one time and the original litter was over a year old. And yes, the second litter was phenomenal as well.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My perfect girl, Sally was the result of a repeat breeding, back to back... The first litter had gorgeous pup's, but cataracts. Sally's litter including herself had orthopedic issues..hers being a luxating patella. It made me superstitious. I love the combo of the litter I had this past summer. Such lovely gentle temperaments, but as much as I love them, I would likely not do a repeat ...


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Tally's litter is being repeated, and it is torturing me. He is a once in a lifetime heart dog, and I am worried I might unfairly compare a puppy to him or that they might come out differently than the first litter. I am so tempted, bc he is perfect in my eyes, lol.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Laurie said:


> So, in my eyes, breeders who are doing repeat breedings are essentially breeding to provide puppies to the public because there is a demand for them, not necessarily for the betterment of the breed.


I dont know that I would go that far... and I wouldn't call them bad breeders or irresponsible ... it really is a philosophical difference... I come from another breed where it is frowned upon but in goldens it seems to be a common practice amongst even those who I would consider excellent breeders... but it is not something I would personally do


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I could see doing a repeat if you were breeding to keep a bitch and ended up with a litter full of gorgeous boys. Or vice versa. Sometimes, you just don't get the split you want.:doh:


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

LJack said:


> I could see doing a repeat if you were breeding to keep a bitch and ended up with a litter full of gorgeous boys. Or vice versa. Sometimes, you just don't get the split you want.:doh:


Yeah see that would make sense to me.... again I wouldn't do it but I can see that reasoning


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> Tally's litter is being repeated, and it is torturing me. He is a once in a lifetime heart dog, and I am worried I might unfairly compare a puppy to him or that they might come out differently than the first litter. I am so tempted, bc he is perfect in my eyes, lol.


I can see why it would torture you.....he is not only one of the most handsome boys I've seen, but he does sound perfect!!!!


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

LJack said:


> I could see doing a repeat if you were breeding to keep a bitch and ended up with a litter full of gorgeous boys. Or vice versa. Sometimes, you just don't get the split you want.:doh:


 
Yes, I can see that as well.


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## painted golden (Aug 17, 2009)

To the breeders here- Is it common to breed the same bitch yearly for 5 years?
How healthy is that for them?
I know my girls mom was bred at least that much. Just curious.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Painted gold,in my opinion, way too many litters. Was there a purpose?

When bitches are getting past six, it is definitely worth thinking about and reconsidering... I just heard this past weekend of a bitch being bred at nine... Way too old for me as mine get spayed so I do not risk a pyometra....


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

painted golden said:


> To the breeders here- Is it common to breed the same bitch yearly for 5 years?
> How healthy is that for them?
> I know my girls mom was bred at least that much. Just curious.


I think that is to much... I plan for two - three litters for each girl but seldom do that.... most have had one or two litters... I would want to know why???


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> There is no way there is a stud dog somewhere in town with a decent temperament who could create cheapo pets for people who resent careful breeders as somehow elitest.


I got my dog at eight weeks. His parents were both the pets of the family who bred them. I was able to meet both parent dogs. Two and a half years later, and my dog's only health issue is allergies. So don't tell me there is _no way_ people can find a stud dog in their general area that can produce reasonably good puppies.  I get compliments on how beautiful my dog is all the time, and he meets all the breed standards in terms of height, weight, and coloration. He can be a bit stubborn, and he's a bit of an alpha, but most of the time that doesn't bother me, I'm a bit stubborn, too.  And those traits aren't to the exclusion of the usual golden traits like loving to play and enjoying affection- both of which he has.



kwhit said:


> I believe there will always be BYBs, not because of price, but because there will always be buyers like you that want a puppy now without any thought to their upbringing or breeding. You just want to walk in slap your money down and have a puppy put in your arms. You couldn't care less about what that breeder is doing to the breed as a whole or what they will do to it in the future. To h*ll with anything else as long as you got your puppy. Me, me, me...that seems to be your mantra.
> 
> What you seem to not be able to get through your head is that good breeders don't breed for the demand of the puppy market or for Joe Public. They breed for the betterment of the breed. Period. And _that_ is what we need to support.


You know, it's not like I hate the breeders who folks here consider "reputable". But when I make the financial sacrifice to buy a dog, I do expect to own that dog- no terms or conditions. I'm also impoverished enough that I need to get a good deal. And it's important to me that I have an opportunity to select my dogs as puppies (I only have one at a time, I just mean the plural in the sense that I'll be looking for another dog when mine passes away someday, most likely) and form a bit of a connection and then take them home. If a "reputable" breeder could give me all those things, of course I'd love to get the health clearances and all that other good stuff they provide. But if they charge more than I can afford, I can't do that, obviously, and if they have terms and conditions that aren't acceptable to me, and won't let me select my own puppy and take him home that day at eight weeks, I'm not interested. I'd talk to someone and try to be a little flexible, but in the end I don't think they think I'm good enough to have their puppies, and I don't think they're flexible enough to work with me even if they don't have that attitude- How do I know? I tried to talk to some when looking for my dog years ago.

Non-refundable deposits are also tough, because I want to make sure there is a puppy there I feel a connection with and I feel works for me. It doesn't make sense to make the sacrifices involved in raising a puppy if I were to show up and be told "That's your puppy" and then the puppy and I don't seem to get along or the puppy doesn't have the personality I'm looking for. I mean, it's a lot of money (Even with the type of deal I got, which was less than half of some of the cheapest prices people quote here), not just the purchase price, but the other expenses that go along with having a dog, and it's very hard work. You want a dog who is going to be a good match and be worth it for you as an owner. If someone wants to pick me out a puppy next time around, I might be able to go along with that, but with the proviso that I'd have to meet the puppy and spend some time with him before finalizing anything- I wouldn't pay in advance or put down a deposit, because it needs to be the right dog, and I won't know until I meet the dog. I'm sure most goldens would be great, but in the litters I saw when I selected my childhood dog, and my adulthood dog, there was one dog in each who approached me and stayed with me and interacted with me at length, which meets with my desire for a dog who is drawn to me and intensely enjoys human interaction, and some dogs who were very shy and hung back, which wouldn't be the right fit for me.

Breeders can do what they want, but they can't force prospective owners to buy from them. If prospective buyers don't like the way these breeders are doing things, they can and will go elsewhere.


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## painted golden (Aug 17, 2009)

I have no idea what the breeders purpose for breeding her so many times was. I would imagine it must not have much of a life for that lovely female. This leaves me with the question?
What is a right when it comes to breeding? The breeder does everything else as far as testing and clearances,showing and titles with some of the dogs.
When I checked the dates of all her offspring it just made me question whether this was a humane thing to do.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

painted golden said:


> I have no idea what the breeders purpose for breeding her so many times was. I would imagine it must not have much of a life for that lovely female. This leaves me with the question?
> What is a right when it comes to breeding? The breeder does everything else as far as testing and clearances,showing and titles with some of the dogs.
> When I checked the dates of all her offspring it just made me question whether this was a humane thing to do.


There is nothing black and white in breeding .... and without knowing the motivation it would be hard to tell if what your breeder was unreasonable or not... if the girl had a litter of one or two puppies that might impact the number of litters she has ... to me that is to many litters but without knowing the rationale I am reticent to condemn without knowing why? Would I do that ? probably not... but I would need to hear why before I could say anything else


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Golden 999, I consider allergies a big deal... And don't get me started on alpha dog terminology... A true alpha dog isn't challenging anything because it is so secure it does not have to...many people misinterpret their dog's behavior as alpha. Let us not forget that sporting dogs were developed to work WITH people, for a golden to be any less goes against temperament.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> One way to discourage people from supporting backyard breeders would be for the breeders who are deemed more reputable to offer their puppies at competitive prices with the backyard breeders, and at competitive terms (i.e. no contracts). I'm not saying breeders should be forced to do that, I'm just saying that's the only way you guys are going to win this battle. Otherwise, there will always be folks who can't afford your puppies or don't want to pay the price, and who don't want to deal with the contractual terms, and go elsewhere. That's just reality.
> 
> Personal opinions on breeding practices aside, I just think from a logical objective perspective that backyard breeders exist because they meet market needs. Those market needs are lower prices and no contractual restrictions. Some folks will always want or need that, and thus will always keep that market around for backyard breeders _unless _other non-BYB breeders start to meet those market needs in some way.


That statement is SO WRONG!! You take the risk of getting a BYB dog, at a cheap price, no health testing, gosh knows what is in both of the parents lines, and usually end up with vet bills a mile long. I've been fortunate to be educated on all of this after the fact of getting a BYB dog. She is still alive and kickin' at 8.5 years old. I have fed her good foods, regular eye exams now that she's older (by an opthomologist!) and I know she is getting exercised regularly. Anyways, I have heard more and more horror stories from people getting BYB dogs with a bucket full of health problems. I bet those "breeders" don't give a **** about the dog in a few years. Truly good breeders will give you a refund and will be a fountain of information for the dog's life.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> I'm also impoverished enough that I need to get a good deal...not just the purchase price, but the other expenses that go along with having a dog, and it's very hard work...


Since you're admitting to being impoverished, let me ask you this...what happens should that "deal" of a dog need very expensive surgery due to an inherited condition? Will your wonderful BYB help out? Oh wait, your breeder didn't believe in contracts which also means no health warranty, correct?

As far as those "other expenses" you incur while owning a dog...couldn't you have just put that amount away every month, (again, it's called "saving up"), so as to eventually have enough for a better bred dog with those health clearances that you admitted you would "love to get"? 

Please don't use the "can't afford it" card anymore, it doesn't cut it with me. As I stated before, you chose a BYB because it was easier and less complicated to get a dog from them than it would have been from a breeder that actually cares where their puppies go.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Would a rep breeder help pay upwards to $60,000 in medical bills?


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Would a rep breeder help pay upwards to $60,000 in medical bills?


Depends on the contract they have with the puppy owner. But, if you are truly a good breeder, you would select lines that don't show a grab bag of health issues. Your BYB breeder wouldn't even care if you had to pay that much for medical bills.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Wyatt's Mommy, did I miss something? Where did that large number come from?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have purchased dogs and would never expect a breeder to pay ridiculous amounts of money to fix my dogs. In fact, one breeder I got a dog from was to supposed to reimburse me for clearances and titles... I told her to forget it because I was going to do all of those things any way, and I truly believed that she needed the money more than I did.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Sally's Mom: I remember seeing a post somewhere, not sure if it was this thread, where someone mentioned that they had spent some $60K on their dog's medical bills. I am guessing that is the reference.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Yup, that was me! Paid over $60k in medical bills for my BYB dog. Even though I loved my dog with all my heart, my dog and I serve as a good example of why you SHOULD NOT buy a BYB dog! 

And I can already envision the judgment I will get for the amount of money I spent on my dog...but before that happens, I'll just say I do not regret it, not one bit! My dog meant everything to me and I'd do it for any of my future dogs if I had to.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

SMBC, what was up for that amount of money? And also you said it was a BYB.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

And now we're going to have Wyatt's Mommy come on and say she paid $60K over the lifetime of Cody who went to the bridge at age 10/11 and he was from an unnamed "reputable" breeder.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

LJack said:


> I could see doing a repeat if you were breeding to keep a bitch and ended up with a litter full of gorgeous boys. Or vice versa. Sometimes, you just don't get the split you want.:doh:


That's exactly what happened to a friend of mine. She bred a litter and it produced two pups, both male. She kept a male, but she really wanted a female to keep the line going. The male she had turned out fabulous, at a year and a half he earned his WCX, CCA, and earned a triathlon award at the GRCA National. At two and a half he had his SH and UD and is drop dead gorgeous. She decided to repeat the breeding to try for a girl. She had a list a mile long of people wanting a pup, had to turn lots and lots of competition homes down. She did get that girl she wanted.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Sally's mom:

Many things...first hip dysplasia, allergies, 2 torn ACL's that were a result of degeneration, then my dog had a life threatening adverse reaction to a medication and needed emergency surgery. The surgery alone to save him cost around 30k, which included the surgery and then the hospital stay. After the life saving surgery then it was the frequent hospitalizations, many medications that were expensive, and continued care for his ACL's that we could not help surgically. All in all we spent around $60k...it may have actually been more over his lifetime. At the time he had his surgery, he was 4 years old, and we calculated that if he lived until 10, we would have spent over $100k, unfortunately he died at 7.

The point I want to make is that I don't know where my dog came from. I did not know his lineage, and I did not know whether his parents were healthy or not. My dog was a BYB, and at the time I purchased him I was younger, and naive, and was not informed. This is what can happen when you buy a BYB dog. His vet often said that his good genes went to his looks, and he just had really bad genes, which is typical for BYB.

The way that I see it is that I would rather pay more upfront and support breeders who work diligently to ensure that they are breeding healthy dogs that create healthy puppies. I sincerely disagree with everything that Golden999 is saying and I'm sure that she may not agree with the amount of money that I spent on my dog, or that I think it is absolutely not a good idea to buy a BYB dog. Golden999, you may think you are saving money by buying a BYB dog, but in actuality the chance of you having to spend more money over your dogs lifetime is greater than if you bought a dog from a reputable breeder and spent more money up front. 

I am currently waiting for a puppy from a reputable breeder, and I know that this is the right decision for me because not only could I not financially afford to go through what I went through with my first dog, but the heartache is so much greater than the amount of money I spent, and I would never ever want to go through that again, which is why I will never ever get a BYB dog again. 

That's just my opinion, and my experience...but I hope my experience will help to inform others.


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

Thank you SMBC for bringing your true life experience to this thread.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> And now we're going to have Wyatt's Mommy come on and say she paid $60K over the lifetime of Cody who went to the bridge at age 10/11 and he was from an unnamed "reputable" breeder.


I am not going to waste my breath. Let's just let people believe this stuff only happens when you purchase from a byb.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Maddies Mom: Thank you for saying that! I would never want anyone to go through what we went through...


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

Again, I am not condoning BYBs although I have 3 dogs from one and one puppy from a breeder. My first BYB Golden was Reno. Other than his annual examinations, he cost me less than $500 during the first 11 years of his life. He has been battling hemangiosarcoma for the past 16.5 months...he is now 12.5 years old.

I've been one of the lucky ones, I know!!!!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Laurie said:


> So, in my eyes, breeders who are doing repeat breedings are essentially breeding to provide puppies to the public because there is a demand for them, not necessarily for the betterment of the breed.


Well scuse me, maybe the first litter turned out spectacular and there is a waiting list a mile long for more of the same? If it's a repeat litter then the "betterment of the breed" coefficient is identical, they just have different birthdays. This is a bizarre argument against repeat breedings!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

My BYB boy has allergies, low thyroid, iris cysts, and cataracts. Not to mention he's oversized, doesn't like to retrieve, and is scared of the world. I love him to death, he had a fairly successful obedience career for a scaredy cat dog with no drive working with an inexperienced trainer - he is in the GRCA Obedience Hall of Fame. But knowing what I know now I will never go back to a BYB. I don't have thousands of dollars just sitting around waiting to be spent. When I knew I would be wanting a puppy in a couple of years I started putting away a hundred dollars a month.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Well scuse me, maybe the first litter turned out spectacular and there is a waiting list a mile long for more of the same? If it's a repeat litter then the "betterment of the breed" coefficient is identical, they just have different birthdays. This is a bizarre argument against repeat breedings!


I've already indicated I do not want to get confrontational....I'm simply trying to learn the reason for repeat breedings. Thank you for your explanation.........


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> Golden 999, I consider allergies a big deal...


Dog allergies are very common in my area the last few years. Big article about it in the local paper. Global climate change is creating more warm wet weather, and allergens like mold and pollen and stuff are there in larger quantities and for longer because we're not really seeing winters the way we used to.

I don't like that my dog suffers from allergies, but I treat him with generic benadryl and fish oil, and he does alright. I have allergies myself, and I take allergy medicine, too.

In the grand scheme of things, allergies are much better than some of the things a dog could have. They won't kill him, and I can alleviate most of his symptoms inexpensively.



MaddieMagoo said:


> That statement is SO WRONG!! You take the risk of getting a BYB dog, at a cheap price, no health testing, gosh knows what is in both of the parents lines, and usually end up with vet bills a mile long. I've been fortunate to be educated on all of this after the fact of getting a BYB dog. She is still alive and kickin' at 8.5 years old. I have fed her good foods, regular eye exams now that she's older (by an opthomologist!) and I know she is getting exercised regularly.


Well, you say all that, and then admit your backyard breeder dog is 8.5 years old and doing fine. Mine is 2.5 years old and doing fine. The one I had growing up did fine for 7-8 years and then developed arthritis followed by cancer, but something like 60% of goldens develop cancer (Which folks have admitted that even the best breeding programs haven't been proven reduce the odds of them getting at present), and he died at 9 or 10, which is pretty close to the average golden life span of 10-12.

Any dog can have health issues. I'm not going to say that a good breeding program can't lower the odds some on some of the health issues. But I think people exaggerate by how much, and exaggerate just how high the risk is for a dog bred in a backyard.

I mean, honestly, if we're going to go for the healthiest possible dogs, we'd start breeding mutts who are a bit smaller and have more generic diversity, the size lessening the stress on their hips and the genetic diversity lowering the odds of some other problems. But we don't do that, because we like golden retrievers. So, you've got to realize that for every person who says backyard breeders are horrible because they might create dogs with slightly greater odds of developing health issues, you'll have a lot more people (Not here, but in general), who will say there are issues with large dog breeds like goldens because of their greater risk of hip issues and their small amount of generic diversity leading to a much greater risk of cancer, etc.. The same logic you're using could easily be used to say no one should breed goldens to the current breed standard at all.



> Anyways, I have heard more and more horror stories from people getting BYB dogs with a bucket full of health problems. I bet those "breeders" don't give a **** about the dog in a few years. Truly good breeders will give you a refund and will be a fountain of information for the dog's life.


I've read all sorts of horror stories about people adopting dogs from seemingly reputable breeders for big bucks with contractual health guarantees, only to see the dog develop serious health issues, and not be reimbursed, or have the breeder say "I'll refund the purchase price if you return your beloved pet to me". A contract is no guarantee unless you're willing to pay a lawyer to force the issue, and then you incur legal fees, and face the "you can't bleed a stone" situation where the breeder may not have the money to reimburse you even if you get a judgement, if you win at all, which you may not.



kwhit said:


> As far as those "other expenses" you incur while owning a dog...couldn't you have just put that amount away every month, (again, it's called "saving up"), so as to eventually have enough for a better bred dog with those health clearances that you admitted you would "love to get"?
> 
> Please don't use the "can't afford it" card anymore, it doesn't cut it with me. As I stated before, you chose a BYB because it was easier and less complicated to get a dog from them than it would have been from a breeder that actually cares where their puppies go.


People love to lecture about that kind of thing, but life is short. Giving up years of pet ownership to save enough to pay a fee I think is too high and accept conditions I don't want to accept while making my lifestyle even worse in the meantime is not acceptable to me. Not going to do it. And if people don't like that, too bad.

Plus, I've not good at saving money. Oh no, I'm a horrible person. Give yourself a pat on the back for being so much more awesome than me.  I'd probably do better with saving if I had a middle class income, but I don't, and I'm not going to sit here and suffer more than I have to so I can do things the way some Internet people think I should. I suffer enough in life, partly because my income is so low. Putting aside money is not easy for anyone, but it's harder for some than others- both situationally, and because of temperament. I've tried for various things, I just can't do it. I've learned to live with that, because I've had to. And I think there are more people like me out there than some would care to admit- and it is what it is in many cases, just the result of a poor economic situation combined with the way our brains are wired. I don't see it as a character flaw, it just is.

One of the reasons I got a dog is I like having someone around who's not as judgmental as a lot of humans are.



Wyatt's mommy said:


> Would a rep breeder help pay upwards to $60,000 in medical bills?


This is a good point. I'd bet dollars to donuts that 95% or more of breeders would never reimburse that, no matter how "reputable" they are considered to be or what's in the contract. Further, I'd say the vast majority of dog owners either couldn't or wouldn't pay it themselves, and would seek alternative treatments or have their dog pass away. Not many people have 60k on hand or even on credit, and fewer still would spend it on a dog.

It's the way it is. You do what you can. You do what you consider reasonable. You make sacrifices. But you can't always do everything. I don't care who you are (Unless you're really wealthy, I guess). It is what it is.

I wouldn't criticize the person who did spend 60k on canine medical bills. He/she had every right to make that decision, and I sympathize with it. I also think people have the right to say at some point "I can't do this for a canine who's estimated lifespan is almost at an end anyway (in some cases)" or "I can't afford this", without being unfit dog owners. Dogs don't have the right to vastly expensive medical treatment. And I think if most folks were honest with themselves, there is a point where most of you would draw the line, whether it be by choice, because a spouse balks, or because you simply couldn't raise that kind of capital.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> maybe the first litter turned out spectacular and there is a waiting list a mile long for more of the same? If it's a repeat litter then the "betterment of the breed" coefficient is identical, they just have different birthdays.


^ Yep. Speaking as somebody who is looking around, repeat breedings are nice because you know what the dogs have produced before. So if physically you want a dog who has a nice head and structure and mentally has that attitude you want for training... and you know that a breeding produced very nice puppies already. It's an easier bet.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Silly me, I consider a selling point of the dogs I breed is that the parents have good skin and ears oh yes along with the four clearances recommended by the GRCA and oh yes my two current breed able bitches have two PRA clearances and are icthyosis clear.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And Golden 999', you state your dog suffers from allergies. My goal in breeding dogs is to eliminate that suffering...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> Silly me, I consider a selling point of the dogs I breed is that the parents have good skin and ears oh yes along with the four clearances recommended by the GRCA and oh yes my two current breed able bitches have two PRA clearances and are icthyosis clear.


Was that directed at me?  

Janice, I think by this time it should be obvious that I would not consider any breeders who are not doing clearances. They simply do not exist in my mind. Since our first golden, we've never purchased a dog from a breeder who does less than recommended as far as clearances.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

No, Megora, directed at golden 999. Golden 999 stated that his dog suffered from allergies... Which he considers minor... I think..


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Oh! 

I'm thinking it's all about me, of course.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

No, I would probably pm you if it was all about you!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

SMBC - I am sorry for what you went thru with your dog. But I will be honest with you - I would never approve of a 30k surgery for a pup only to give him 3 more years of a non-quality life, especially knowing he had other medical issues other than the adverse reaction to the meds.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Sally's Mom said:


> And Golden 999', you state your dog suffers from allergies. My goal in breeding dogs is to eliminate that suffering...


I agree with Sally's mom. Allergies may not be life threatening, but they are certainly life altering. Actually now that I think about it, my dogs allergies did impact his life span. My dog had food allergies, and very minimal environmental allergies, and when he was in liver failure, he needed to eat the food he was allergic to but was unable to. This ultimately cut his life short. 

Allergies are also very expensive. Some may be able to be helped through Benedryl and fish oil alone, but a lot can't, and need additional treatment, such as special diets, medicated shampoo, medication, allergy shots and other things to help alleviate the allergies. 

Allergies are quite expensive and annoying and I still would want SOME reassurance that my dog will mostly likely not have allergies...and the only way to do this is to go through a reputable breeder who is conscientious of these things, like Sally's mom.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Laurie said:


> Again, I am not condoning BYBs although I have 3 dogs from one and one puppy from a breeder. My first BYB Golden was Reno. Other than his annual examinations, he cost me less than $500 during the first 11 years of his life. He has been battling hemangiosarcoma for the past 16.5 months...he is now 12.5 years old.
> 
> I've been one of the lucky ones, I know!!!!


16 .5 months of battling that horrible disease? He is also one strong boy! God bless him.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SMBC said:


> I agree with Sally's mom. Allergies may not be life threatening, but they are certainly life altering. Actually now that I think about it, my dogs allergies did impact his life span. My dog had food allergies, and very minimal environmental allergies, and when he was in liver failure, he needed to eat the food he was allergic to but was unable to. This ultimately cut his life short.
> 
> Allergies are also very expensive. Some may be able to be helped through Benedryl and fish oil alone, but a lot can't, and need additional treatment, such as special diets, medicated shampoo, medication, allergy shots and other things to help alleviate the allergies.
> 
> Allergies are quite expensive and annoying and I still would want SOME reassurance that my dog will mostly likely not have allergies...and the only way to do this is to go through a reputable breeder who is conscientious of these things, like Sally's mom.


Nobody can assure you that your dog will be allergy free. I agree though, with my experience they can make a dog miserable.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Our only dog that came from a reputable breeder, out of many, while he was the smartest of all the dogs me and my husband owned had allergies over allergies and then developed seizures from petite mal to grand mal seizures at the age of 6. He lived close to 14 with lots of care and medication.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> SMBC - I am sorry for what you went thru with your dog. But I will be honest with you - I would never approve of a 30k surgery for a pup only to give him 3 more years of a non-quality life, especially knowing he had other medical issues other than the adverse reaction to the meds.


Hello! I can respect your opinion and unfortunately, when he went into surgery, they did not know what was wrong. It wasn't until they opened him up did they find out that he was having a life threatening reaction caused by the medication and because we gave them the go ahead to go into surgery, they fixed him, and I'm glad they did. 

Prior to this event, he had hip dysplasia, which he had two TPO surgeries for, as well as allergies. The life threatening event was caused by a misdiagnosis from a vet where she failed to diagnose the ACLs. 

After his surgery, we were told he would go on to live a normal life. I cannot predict the future so there was no way of knowing he would only live 3 more years. And, he DID have a good quality of life after his surgery. If he didn't, we would have put him down earlier. He had ups and downs, and always bounced back from the downs. It wasn't until his last month of life that he no longer had a good quality of life...and it was a very hard decision. 

I respect your opinion but like I said earlier, my dog meant everything to me and my husband and I would not change any of our decisions and I'm confident in the decisions we had to make. Maybe you would have made a different decision, but we are different people


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Golden999 said:


> ....Global climate change is creating more warm wet weather, and allergens like mold and pollen and stuff are there in larger quantities and for longer because we're not really seeing winters the way we used to......................................


This is where I stopped reading. That's a bunch of nonsense.

You revealed a lot about yourself with that comment. No wonder you have a problem with breeders making a profit. I suspect political discussion is frowned upon here, so I'll leave it at that.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

SMBC said:


> Hello! I can respect your opinion and unfortunately, when he went into surgery, they did not know what was wrong. It wasn't until they opened him up did they find out that he was having a life threatening reaction caused by the medication and because we gave them the go ahead to go into surgery, they fixed him, and I'm glad they did.
> 
> Prior to this event, he had hip dysplasia, which he had two TPO surgeries for, as well as allergies. The life threatening event was caused by a misdiagnosis from a vet where she failed to diagnose the ACLs.
> 
> ...


SMBC, I can certainly empathize with you. I'm sitting around $10K spent on just one my goldens in the last 8 mos. With her last surgery she developed life threatening complications and her bill skyrocketed. Thankfully, my girl had the will to live and my parents taught me how to save.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> SMBC, I can certainly empathize with you. I'm sitting around $10K spent on just one my goldens in the last 8 mos. With her last surgery she developed life threatening complications and her bill skyrocketed. Thankfully, my girl had the will to live and my parents taught me how to save.


I'm so sorry to hear that! My dog also had an extreme will to live and I knew that if he was going to fight to live, I was going to fight along with him! I also know how hard it can be financially but how much more heartbreaking it can be to watch your dog in pain! Thank you for sharing in my story and I commend you for all that you're willing to do for your beloved dog! She's lucky to have you!!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> I've read all sorts of horror stories about people adopting dogs from seemingly reputable breeders for big bucks with contractual health guarantees, only to see the dog develop serious health issues, and not be reimbursed, or have the breeder say *"I'll refund the purchase price if you return your beloved pet to me"*. A contract is no guarantee unless you're willing to pay a lawyer to force the issue, and then you incur legal fees, and face the "you can't bleed a stone" situation where the breeder may not have the money to reimburse you even if you get a judgement, if you win at all, which you may not.


And this is where I find that there are many definitions of "reputable" on this forum. Sorry, IMO a reputable breeder would not require the return of the pup.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

Folks, here we are again, where an OP starts a thread asking for advice and that thread becomes a train wreck because some opinionated people on this forum can't resist arguing about everything on everyone's threads. If we can stop feeding the trolls, can we not also stop feeding the narcissism of some members of the forum? The OP hasn't been back in 11 pages, so once more, just because a few folks love to hear themselves talk, we are not being helpful to people who come looking for help. And yes, Golden 999, I am talking about you!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

SMBC - no matter what age you have to make that decision it is a tormenting one. I myself only had to make it twice. My husband more than me. With both Trooper and Jack I felt like I could have should have done more. With Troopie I begged not to have to make that decision, I begged him to go in peace and don;t let them inject him with the killer stuff. I sat next to him and cried after I made the call and all he could do is look at me and lick me. He liked my hand with his last breath. Jack was even worse, while Trooper was ready to go Jack was not. He developed a tumor inside his rectum. He was a little over 14, he also had allergies and a very sensitive stomach, he had Lupus since he was a couple years old. There was no way we could have done surgery at the time. For a couple weeks we thought it was hemorrhoids and allowed him to go #2 in my surgical covered hands. I put the cream on him and just when I thought he was getting better one morning his tumor was so big he could not go anymore. When Mark the vet came over I expected a miracle not that it was time. Then the worst part was that we had to hold him while he was put down. 
Yes we all make decisions and I know I prolonged Jack's pain because i squeezed every drop of life in him just because I did not want to lose him. While he seemed fine and happy to see me I should have known the pain he was in. 
If my vet who knows that I never bargain on cost would have not consulted me to continue from a small intervention surgery to a 30K surgery we would be in court soon after. 
ACL is hard to diagnose, especially when you say that the dog already had two TPO surgeries but it is predominant in large breed dogs who have been neutered too early, are obese or exposed to ridiculously high exercise.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> SMBC - no matter what age you have to make that decision it is a tormenting one. I myself only had to make it twice. My husband more than me. With both Trooper and Jack I felt like I could have should have done more. With Troopie I begged not to have to make that decision, I begged him to go in peace and don;t let them inject him with the killer stuff. I sat next to him and cried after I made the call and all he could do is look at me and lick me. He liked my hand with his last breath. Jack was even worse, while Trooper was ready to go Jack was not. He developed a tumor inside his rectum. He was a little over 14, he also had allergies and a very sensitive stomach, he had Lupus since he was a couple years old. There was no way we could have done surgery at the time. For a couple weeks we thought it was hemorrhoids and allowed him to go #2 in my surgical covered hands. I put the cream on him and just when I thought he was getting better one morning his tumor was so big he could not go anymore. When Mark the vet came over I expected a miracle not that it was time. Then the worst part was that we had to hold him while he was put down.
> Yes we all make decisions and I know I prolonged Jack's pain because i squeezed every drop of life in him just because I did not want to lose him. While he seemed fine and happy to see me I should have known the pain he was in.
> If my vet who knows that I never bargain on cost would have not consulted me to continue from a small intervention surgery to a 30K surgery we would be in court soon after.
> ACL is hard to diagnose, especially when you say that the dog already had two TPO surgeries but it is predominant in large breed dogs who have been neutered too early, are obese or exposed to ridiculously high exercise.


I'm so sorry to hear about your experiences and your dogs. It's sounds as though you made the best decision for you and your dog based on what you knew at the time. It's a very hard decision to make, as you know, and I also know how hard it is to separate our needs vs the needs of the dog, and it sounds like you did the best you could, as we all do. Sometimes we can look back on our decision and wish we did something differently, but at the time most of our decisions are based on what we feel is best in the moment. It sounds like you really loved your dogs and would do anything for them, as I did. 

The surgery was not a small intervention surgery, we were fully aware we did not know what was wrong. The X-ray looked as though he may have eaten something and it was stuck in his intestines. Turns out, he had an ulcer that burst that caused a tear in his intestine and sepsis in his abdomen. I do not blame the surgeon, I blame the vet that misdiagnosed him and we did take her to court and won. We also were awarded another settlement. 

When we found out about his ACLs from the orthopedic surgeon after his life saving surgery, she said that many times dogs that have hip problems go on to have knee problems (elbows less common). My dog was diagnosed with severe hip dysplasia at 6 months, and it was assumed that he just had very weak/poor joints and this ended up impacting his knees. After his hip surgeries, we were very careful with his exercise and he always maintained a lean body mass. We were overly cautious with him, and after he was diagnosed with the ACL issues he went weekly to PT where he went on the underwater treadmill, which he loved. I wish I could blame it on something other than really poor genes but that's what it was unfortunately. Hard when you can't control the hand your dog was dealt, but we did the best we could by giving him the best possible care. 

Luckily we had an extremely talented surgeon and then her colleague took over his care for the 3 years. They were wonderful, knowledgeable vets who wanted him to live just as much as we did. We trusted them completely and I always told them that when they thought enough was enough, I'd want them to tell us. At the beginning on June, our vet said he had begun declining and she predicted that, although he had bounced back from everything else, that this time it was different and she predicted 6 weeks. Sure enough, 6 weeks later, he was in very poor health and that's when we made the difficult decision. 

We all love our dogs very much and would do anything for them, and that's what makes us all so passionate about our animals and animals in general.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Finn's Fan said:


> Folks, here we are again, where an OP starts a thread asking for advice and that thread becomes a train wreck because some opinionated people on this forum can't resist arguing about everything on everyone's threads. If we can stop feeding the trolls, can we not also stop feeding the narcissism of some members of the forum? The OP hasn't been back in 11 pages, so once more, just because a few folks love to hear themselves talk, we are not being helpful to people who come looking for help. And yes, Golden 999, I am talking about you!


You're right, you're right, you're right...I tried so hard to stay away. And I did for, what, six or seven pages? But then I let myself be baited and I bit. :doh: It's just such a hot button issue for me. I need to learn self control. My apologies to the OP...


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> Breeders can do what they want, but they can't force prospective owners to buy from them. If prospective buyers don't like the way these breeders are doing things, they can and will go elsewhere.


Likewise, buyers can spin the wheel of fortune and use anecdotal evidence of one 2 year old dog against decades of research into hip, heart, eye, and elbow health, but they cannot force a breeder to consider them for a puppy. It turns out perfectly: you would not choose a puppy from me and I would never consider you for one! Problem avoided.

Anecdotal: 

I've owned 12 goldens, 1 from a BYB.

8 of my goldens have been hip, heart, eye, and elbow clear with no allergies, epilepsy or hot spots. For example, golden # 3 from excellent breeder lived to be 15 3/4s with zero health problems until his last week on earth.

*
Our Indiana BYB golden had hips moderate and died at 11. When I called the breeder about his prelims, she never called back. He limped and struggled in his elder years as his hips quit long before his spirit.

Our golden from well known breeder had elbow dysplasia- breeder returned entire purchase price with a kind note. She spoke with the orthopedic vet, and put the xrays in her files. When another litter had ED, the mother was spayed and retired even though she herself had all her clearances and high titles. 

Our golden from good breeder still living at 10 has hips excellent, elbows, heart, and eyes normal, no allergies or thyroid issues, but mild epilepsy. 

Our golden from a good breeder has mild ED that was found by OFA but vehemently denied by our vet. Our breeder offered full purchase price back, but we did not accept it back because the dog is sound and not in pain and she was very honest & transparent. We neutered him and will not breed him. He is a healthy pet.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Well scuse me, maybe the first litter turned out spectacular and there is a waiting list a mile long for more of the same? If it's a repeat litter then the "betterment of the breed" coefficient is identical, they just have different birthdays. This is a bizarre argument against repeat breedings!


so wait then it is about providing puppies to the public??? 

here is my question though.... if you have already done it... why do it again?? why not try something new and see if you can improve even on what you got last time?? 

the thing about not getting a bitch if you wanted a bitch makes sense to me... but in this statement above you are saying that it is about selling puppies??? 

curious about this rationale... 

S


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Shalva said:


> so wait then it is about providing puppies to the public???
> 
> here is my question though.... if you have already done it... why do it again?? why not try something new and see if you can improve even on what you got last time??
> 
> ...


If you are repeating breedings that went VERY well as far as producing puppies for the breeder, for competition, for show, for pet homes - isn't that doing something towards bettering the breed? Am I missing something? *confuzzled*

I guess a good example I can think of would be Anney's Fisher. The litter he came from was fantastic as far as all of the competition results... His breeder repeated the breeding, of course...

Repeat breedings aren't some obscure bizarre practice that is all for the money. I think the only time they would be if the breeder bred 2 dogs and got a poor quality litter as far as what they were aiming for. And still went on to repeat the litter! :uhoh: I guess too if they are only breeding those dogs and not breeding to other dogs. Yogi was bred to a lot of different dogs and produced fantastic results with those different breedings. And I believe there were other repeat breedings. 

I've always understood that breeders aim for solid and NICE breedings that produce exactly what they want in the breed. And there is no guarantee if they are constantly switching gears and breeding to something different, even if the pedigrees they breed to are superb.

An example of a breeding that was never repeated... my Danny came from a pretty solid pedigree with conformation and performance behind them. Both parents had all clearances that were necessary at the time (elbows were not yet a big deal, this was back in the early 90's). Every single puppy in that litter had elbow dysplasia and other degenerative joint problems going on. One puppy was put to sleep because he had both bad elbows and hips. It was horrific for the breeder. She still kept both dogs in her breeding program (breeding to other dogs with good results), but never repeated that specific breeding.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Actually this is a very obscure practice in other breeds.... In several breeds including my own this practice is frowned upon yet it is done regularly in goldens. I do understand the point of breeding.... 

I have two questions... that I would like to hear from the breeders who do repeat breedings because I am clearly not the only one that doesn't generally do them... Sallys Mom also stated that she doesn't typically do repeat breedings. 

First if the gene pool is limited, isn't diversity what we as breeders and guardians of the breed want? How many dogs does the breed really need with the exact same pedigree? and then how many repeat breedings is to many in your mind? 

Second, if the goal is to eventually breed the perfect golden... using goldens as an example .. and we know that in every dog there is something that could be improved upon. Then why repeat a breeding? if you see what you have ... even if it is great... stupendous... aren't you saying then by repeating that breeding that you can't possibly do any better? That this is as good as it gets so there is no point in trying something different? 

I was always taught that we will never get to the perfect dog so you do a breeding, you see what you got and what you didn't get (considering there is no perfect dog) and then you try something else a different combination to see if you can improve on what you just got now that you see what you did get .... 

I don't think this is a bizarre question at all... it is a philosophical question... and I could be convinced otherwise. Right now I don't see any point in repeat breedings except in the case of the person who bred the litter and got all boys or girls and didn't keep anything to move on with and needed to repeat to keep a pup... or got an extremely small litter and decided to repeat and try again, those kinds of situations. 

While the pedigrees are the same and only the birthdays may change... well that is all fine and good but that doesn't even matter... why do it?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> First if the gene pool is limited, isn't diversity what we as breeders and guardians of the breed want? How many dogs does the breed really need with the exact same pedigree? and then how many repeat breedings is to many in your mind?


But isn't the case with Yogi - a fairly good example of a breeder doing exactly what you suggest, while also repeating those breedings which worked very well? 

Shouldn't there be a balance? Especially since the breed is fairly established? 

Not all dogs in every litter are bred. But they do have a very strong purpose in securing and strengthening the breed. Sometimes with competition especially, there is a very high demand for some repeat breedings because the first one went so well. These are dogs who will be placed in homes who rather than breeding those dogs specifically, will be strengthening the breed by putting titles on those dogs. <- This is a sidetrack, but IMO, it's not just up to breeders to be strengthening the breed. It's the owners too. A breeder can't advertize that they produce sound quality dogs who can do everything they want, if they only sell to pet homes who may have limited demands (they want looks and temperament) as opposed to wanting the whole 9 yards (looks, temperament, soundness, strength, endurance, etc).


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> And this is where I find that there are many definitions of "reputable" on this forum. Sorry, IMO *a reputable breeder would not require the return of the pup*.


Even if they met *all other requirments?*


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

We can go around and around, and each time it comes down to the raw data that's readily available. Clearances and good breeding practices don't provide a "slight" risk in reduction of financial and physical hardship. They cut 50%-90% of the risk. It's just a smart practice and one that helps protect a beloved dog from having to suffer.

You can rationalize and ignore the facts all you want. You can cherrypick anecdotes where one dog got lucky or another got unlucky. One outlier—or a dozen—doesn't tell you anything statistically significant. Fortunately, the basic facts are there for anybody to check out themselves.

Legally, you can put your dog at serious risk if it seems like a good idea to you. Ethically, you shouldn't. People do, and they'll continue to do so. Backyard breeders will still breed, and people will still give them $300 a pup and take on huge amounts of unnecessary risk.

I encourage anybody who's reading the thread to become part of the solution instead of perpetuating the problem by breeding risky pups, buying risky pups, or rationalizing excuses for either of those things.

I'd love to talk about repeat breedings and the rationale behind those, but I think a new thread would be the best place for that, but because it's a big discussion and totally OT here.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Shalva said:


> so wait then it is about providing puppies to the public???
> 
> here is my question though.... if you have already done it... why do it again?? why not try something new and see if you can improve even on what you got last time??
> 
> ...


There's "the public" and there's "competition homes" -- a world of difference!
I don't entertain breeding to produce pet litters anymore, too much hassle.
But I would do a repeat breeding if there was a demand from competition homes, in a heartbeat!
Slater is from a repeat breeding (not Fisher -- although his breeder kicks herself for not repeating it!). The first litter had 7 puppies all of which went to competition homes : an OTCH, a UDX with 80 OTCH points, a Canadian SH, a MX/MXJ, two CDXs, one working on CDX. 3 HIT winners and 2 with 200 scores. Breeder repeated 2 years later, 2nd litter 4 of 5 went to competition homes, currently all have titles. These are not pets. Pet people are content with pretty much whatever a good breeder produces. They aren't picky about sires, working temperament, type. Competition homes are.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Anney... did somebody make a mistake on K9Data? I see there is a Frankie listed in 2009?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> But isn't the case with Yogi - a fairly good example of a breeder doing exactly what you suggest, while also repeating those breedings which worked very well?
> 
> Shouldn't there be a balance? Especially since the breed is fairly established?
> 
> Not all dogs in every litter are bred. But they do have a very strong purpose in securing and strengthening the breed. Sometimes with competition especially, there is a very high demand for some repeat breedings because the first one went so well. These are dogs who will be placed in homes who rather than breeding those dogs specifically, will be strengthening the breed by putting titles on those dogs. <- This is a sidetrack, but IMO, it's not just up to breeders to be strengthening the breed. It's the owners too. A breeder can't advertize that they produce sound quality dogs who can do everything they want, if they only sell to pet homes who may have limited demands (they want looks and temperament) as opposed to wanting the whole 9 yards (looks, temperament, soundness, strength, endurance, etc).



Woohoo A+!!!!
Come on don't you want a Fisher puppy???


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> Anney... did somebody make a mistake on K9Data? I see there is a Frankie listed in 2009?


Huh? Fisher had a sister named Frankie who died in 2009.
Slater is the one from a repeat breeding, not Fisher, but your point is very well taken!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> Huh? Fisher had a sister named Frankie who died in 2009.
> Slater is the one from a repeat breeding, not Fisher, but your point is very well taken!


You are right - I saw the date and threw it in there to illustrate what I was trying to say. Very sorry... 

I am not wearing my glasses this morning. 

If you ever breed Fisher to a Michigan girlie....


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Well discussing Yogi brings up a host of other questions but I am not comfortable talking about a specific dog and would rather discuss the question in generalities... I have a Yogi kid... from his very first litter and one that was repeated not long after.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I only mentioned Yogi because he immediately came to mind and he is well known enough. I do mean the same in general though. 

In fact there was a young golden I saw at a trial this fall who I looked up because I _really_ liked the looks and attitude. I don't know who his mom is (mom is has all these agility titles that mean nothing to me - Mach4? MXB2... other things like that + CDX) , but I've seen his dad (UDX) in shows and that's who he reminds me of. The litter is 2, but already racking up all the agility and obedience titles. 

This litter was repeated.

I'm not really sure if they will repeat that litter again, but solid bet is that there will be a lot of people who have seen this litter work and would be interested. 

I wouldn't mention any of these dogs by name because it's quite different than talking about a very well known dog like Yogi, etc...


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Golden 999: You clearly aren't getting it! My BYB dog has a high rear, she is pretty timid of things, scared of other dogs barking in a show environment, not because she's had bad experiences or anything, just because she is downright scared. My dog also has 2 irises in each eye and who knows if it will lead to PU in her later years of life. But, I'm doing my job as an owner to keep her fit and conditioned for her age. I'm not letting her get fat or lay around all day. 

Sure, your dog might be fine at 2 years old, but I've heard of 5 year old dogs dying because of a severe health issue! At least with a reputable breeder you'll at least have health clearances from 5 generations back to know what happened to them, etc. You justifications aren't making an sense. Allergies is something I wouldn't want to mess with. I don't hear too many people in the good breeder world saying a litter of there's all suffered from allergies, it's most of these BYB dogs that suffer from from. 

But what do I know? You just won't listen to us and hear us out!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

MaddieMagoo said:


> I don't hear too many people in the good breeder world saying a litter of there's all suffered from allergies, it's most of these BYB dogs that suffer from from.
> 
> But what do I know? You just won't listen to us and hear us out!


Majority always beats out minority. There are far more pet goldens in homes from byb's than rep. breeder goldens.

But my rep bred golden did suffer from seasonal allergies and I know there are a few on here that do also and might be honest enough to say.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> We can go around and around, and each time it comes down to the raw data that's readily available. Clearances and good breeding practices don't provide a "slight" risk in reduction of financial and physical hardship. They cut 50%-90% of the risk.


Citation needed.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> And Golden 999', you state your dog suffers from allergies. My goal in breeding dogs is to eliminate that suffering...


That's a good goal. I hope it works for you.

However, having said that, 1) We don't know if it'll work yet and 2) Even if it does work, my guess is that your puppies are priced at a higher point than many of us can afford and that you wouldn't cut someone like me a break, or sell to me in particular at any price. If I'm wrong on my second point, you are welcome to contact me when my dog passes away (hopefully he still has plenty of years left) and we can discuss it.

Regardless, trying to breed allergies out of dog lines is a very laudable goal, and despite our disagreements on a lot of things, I do applaud you for trying to achieve that.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Good grief, Golden 999, give it a rest. The statistics have been posted SO many times on threads that end up exactly like this, with you touting the huge benefit of backyard breeders based on the apparent sense of entitlement you felt to a golden puppy. If one cannot afford a well bred golden (or lab or whatever breed) puppy one should explore shelters or rescues to find one within the "price point" that one is searching. Otherwise one is padding the pockets of people who are 1) breeding just to breed, and 2) breeding without any regard to the health of the puppies they are producing. There is no inherent right to own a golden puppy. You have said many times you didn't want to get a shelter or rescue dog. You felt entitled to a golden puppy so you got one from an unscrupulous breeder. That is IT. That is what YOU did. The end. Can you give it a rest now?

And for those who think I'm feeding the troll, I agree, but I will not stand by and watch a breed that I love be reduced to negotiating, haggling and some demand for "sale" prices on puppies just "because I want one."


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

Oh gee, another breeder thread. Just 155 posts and 5,580 views in 3 days. Big surprise


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Too bad this one can't be closed and buried....... deep.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

And on that note, this thread is being closed!!!!


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