# What are you training on?



## FTGoldens

Well, this COVID stuff has changed our hunt testing and field trialing plans BIG TIME! It has also changed the way that I train ... pre-COVID, I was training with a group (a really good group, I must admit) on both Saturday and Sunday, plus 1 - 2 days training alone; but now, I'm training alone 5 - 6 days a week. I have a couple launchers and a couple wingers, so I can get in "electronic marks," but it's not like having gunners in the field.

My current training adventure is getting the mutts to learn in-line triples with the middle gun retired. I consider it to be largely a "go where sent" training tool and not necessarily a set-up that I see very often at weekend trials ... although it does show up on occasion. Started out running the set-up as singles (long-short-middle); on Saturday I ran it as a very wide triple and they did okay on it; on Sunday I retired the long and middle "gunners" and they did pretty well on it (it's a significantly different test when retiring the long and the middle gunners, but I did it anyway). [I made a rookie mistake when I set up the long mark, but both dogs made up for my misgivings.] I'll work on the triple a couple times this week, as well as retiring a long gunner ... maybe short retireds again next week.

I rewound my Training Retrievers Alone DVD and picked up a couple things from it; and I've started Voight's other DVD, 25 Essential Retriever Training Drills for Handling. By the latter, although I've barely gotten started on it, I have already been reminded of a couple drills that I've simply ignored, namely the Two Tier Wagon Wheel Lining Drill and the Wagon Wheel Casting Drill. I must admit, I much prefer running marks, which probably explains why my dogs are typically better markers than blind-running dogs ....
So, that said, I'm working on handling drills to the extent I can stand them! Notably, both of my dogs absolutely love drills, so it's just me.

FTGoldens


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## MillionsofPeaches

oh wow, I didn't realize you didn't like drills you always have great suggestions for me that include drills. I did a wagon wheel drill the other day where luckily I caught Shelly switching on her way back with the orange bumper to the white bumper. Well...the previous day she switched on a poison bird blind after running it beautifully. She came out of the water to the left behind the dike and onto of the bird...She doesn't get in much trouble for that because the trainer says she doesn't understand that how can she? But the drill I was not expecting that to happen so I used it as an opportunity to train about it. So drills are fun to me sometimes!
It sounds like the inline triple is coming along smoothly. We had an inline triple where the long first shot gun was a standout flyer then the middle retired then the go bird that retired after they hit a mound. I think that is how it was...it was rough for them to get that short gun second.

Today we revisited a set up from last week that few dogs could do last week. The long retired gun was a sore topic among the gallery and the pro some saying it was an unfair set up others thought it was fine. The long gun was hip pocket tight to the flyer but it kind of appeared that it landed on a swell behind the flyer gun instead of deep of the swell. So a lot of dogs hung up short on that swell. There was a pond inline of the bird as well. The gallery felt it was a contrary bird. It was a great set up for me to listen to what everyone had to say. Today the set up was completely different yet the triple was the same and there was a long single outside of the test added. The long gun through the middle kind of retired a bit while running it as a double on the outside first. Interesting how you can completely change a test like that! the dogs did way better this time around. My girl got into water cheating this time around where on the harder set up last week she did all her water work correctly! Go figure. Then we moved over and ran a tricky little blind that crossed the test and ran in front of the short gunner station from earlier. it was tricky cause you lost sight of them through the swells. 

Other than I guess right now we've been working on punch birds and poison birds blinds. Water cheating and fine lines entering the water.


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## 3goldens2keep

We have a new field bred pup. We signed up for an obedience class that started a couple of weeks ago. Only three people were scheduled to show on the first night, but only two of us showed. The class tonight we were the only ones to show. So we get private lessons....such a deal. Our pup is progressing well and I working on marking and recalls for puppies in our back yard.

We hope to have him in with a field trainer later this summer, but have not confirmed the availability of the ones we like to use....


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## diane0905

*oops -- just noticed I posted in the wrong section.


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## myluckypenny

I have completely changed how I thought I was going to train. Luckily in SD we don't have a shelter in place, and most of the guys are still training regularly. After proving that I can throw a bird, I've finally become part of the in crowd in our field trial club here. Took a while, but if you are persistent (and keep showing up) eventually they concede lol! I love training with these guys because they have Amateur and Open level dogs so I get to see what the end picture should look like. I don't know if Rio has that kind of potential, but I figure if I concentrate on field trial set ups now, I can always go back and do the hunt test stuff later.

I'm learning so much though from training with them. I get awesome critiques on my handling (ie slow way down) and some great tips that help progress Rio on marks. I get lots of advice (I'm by far the most inexperienced person there so I expect that), but when it comes to what I should run Rio on I really rely on the one person that I know has trained his own dog from start to just a couple points shy of an AFC himself. A lot of the others have pros do young dog stuff and I think most of their advice would be rushing Rio. Unlike them I'm in no hurry, I don't have FC or AFC goals, at this point, my goal is to run Rio at the 2021 golden national qual! 

When we first started training with them a couple weeks ago, Rio was really flakey at the line, not super focused. So we took it slow and really worked on getting the focus there, especially with multiple gunners in the field. This last weekend they set up a tight triple that had the dogs running through a corn field (which was fairly rough). Rio come to the line, focused in on each mark, and had perfect lines to the bird (we ran singles). So now that we've got that, I have to start adding factors on singles and start easy doubles. 

Blinds, I'm mainly still training by myself. If I have questions there I reach out to Tim Springer and we troubleshoot. When I first tried switching to cold blinds, I definitely rushed it. Plus doing the upland training when I did really screwed him up, so I had some things I needed to redo. Now, I'm really trying to make an effort of balancing cold blinds and drills. I'm revisiting some T and double T work in anticipation of completing swim-by as soon as the water is warm enough. I'm also keeping blinds and marks in very separate locations for the time being. Before I was trying to rush it thinking I could skip the lower level and move right up to seasoned. Now I think I likely won't test at all this year (unless I can find a fall derby).


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## Golden Gibby

Current events have certainly changed what we are doing. We don’t do field trials, just hunt tests and we were hoping to wrap up my females MH title by now, she only needs two more passes. I have been training about 3-4 days a week. I have been putting a place board out with a white bucket or stake next to it to identify the location and we have been doing a lot of send back marks. I like this because I can get a lot of work in without having to reload wingers, and I’m the gunner in the field. This week it has been in-line marks with a few flat marks mixed in also. We’re doing a lot of singles to hopefully stay sharp. I get the wingers out sometimes to try to keep line manners from getting worse. Having the white bucket next to the place board enables us to run 150-200 yard marks then send her right back to the place board and run a new mark. After the marks we run a few blinds to keep sharp. Usually by then she is covered with mud so we do a few walk around marks on the pond to get the mud off. We mix in some lining drills in the field next to our house.
Master tests filled up fast before, I wonder how fast they will fill up when we get to run tests again.


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## FTGoldens

myluckypenny,
This is fantastic stuff! It's great to hear that you have made it into the "in" group! While DVDs are instructive, learning from mentors who have not only experience but have experience being successful has deep, long-term value.
It sounds like they have you on the right path.
Keep us posted on Rio's progress.
FTGoldens


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## FTGoldens

MillionsofPeaches said:


> oh wow, I didn't realize you didn't like drills you always have great suggestions for me that include drills. I did a wagon wheel drill the other day where luckily I caught Shelly switching on her way back with the orange bumper to the white bumper. Well...the previous day she switched on a poison bird blind after running it beautifully. She came out of the water to the left behind the dike and onto of the bird...She doesn't get in much trouble for that because the trainer says she doesn't understand that how can she? But the drill I was not expecting that to happen so I used it as an opportunity to train about it. So drills are fun to me sometimes!


Yeah, I've learned a bunch of different drills from other folks and have even created a few of my own (like the "Z" water blind drill), but I have to MAKE myself do them. 
I often turn to drills to fix a problem that one of my mutts is having ... of course, if I'd done the drills as part of my training routine, they probably wouldn't have had the problem in the first place! 
Maybe after I've done this stuff for a few years, I'll learn ....

FTGoldens


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## K9-Design

So my dogs are definitely getting more training now that I'm homebound than they were previously, which is great!!
Brix is progressing on his Senior-level skills…he is doing really well, just has everything to learn. I don't worry about him too much!
I am back prepping Bally for quals. (My computer wants to autocorrect this to quails!). This is such a conundrum to me because I feel like he has a way better attitude and performs better when it's just myself and one training partner, but I think that's more a function of me not setting up things that are challenging enough. I've been attending weekly group training, with a very experienced crowd, who sets up very large test-like setups. We've gone probably half a dozen times. My issues is I feel I can't step up to the plate and run a big triple, and I'm forever running them as singles, and if a mark is too long Bally turns into an actor and magically can't seem to locate the long gun, or has a hard time being super confident about that. After making mistakes of correcting him too much in the past, I've not put any pressure on this. I also feel like in this group setting with the big setups, he doesn't run as hard, and he is also taking odd routes to birds that he clearly sees. That is not normal for him, he usually makes a beeline for marks. He will come out right at the bird and not put up a hunt but it's an odd, non-linear route to get there. 
Today the first series was a very large open field but there was a channel piece of water along the back edge, the go bird was a short mark off to the right, the two memory birds were along the back edge of the channel both throwing in the same direction, so two down the shore basically. I hid the long left-hand bird, and threw the middle as the memory bird and short as the go bird. Bally took a bit of an odd route to the memory bird but went right to it once he got in the water so he knew where it was. My plan was to run the longest, left hand bird as a single after picking up this double. He WOULD NOT look at the gunner. Now, it was a gunner standing in shade, not the world's most obvious, but Bally looked all over and never would pick it out. I asked for movement and noise, still could not get him to look at it. I ended up just abandoning it and putting him up. In retrospect I should have walked up part way until he'd focus on it but I didn't think about it at the time. Meanwhile, EVERY other dog in training was able to do that mark in some form or another, so I know Bally is purposefully doing this. Its the same problem I bumped into with him in year's past. Sigh.


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## MillionsofPeaches

well shite Anney


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## K9-Design

IKR???????
This is the first time recently he absolutely refused to look out at the long one. He's been doing really good up until now. I'm sorta tired of trying to figure out the why's, I just want to figure out how to train and deal with it.


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## FTGoldens

K9-Design said:


> IKR???????
> This is the first time recently he absolutely refused to look out at the long one. He's been doing really good up until now. I'm sorta tired of trying to figure out the why's, I just want to figure out how to train and deal with it.


Interesting stuff going on!
I don't know who is in the group that you're training with, but have you asked any of them as to what they think is going on? (I'd ask the most experienced and analytical trainer away from the whole group because you'd get chorus of unharmonious responses if asked in front of the whole gang.)
Since you've backed off the pressure, he may not really be trying.
FTGoldens


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## Edward Lee Nelson

The weekend training group is history for now, I really like our group, its a older group but with a former National judge and some have had FC-AFC. One of the guys had a Golden with over 90 AA points. But still the wife and me are out there 5-6 days a week with wingers and herself in the field, Our training grounds has 2 ponds and over 200 acres which is only 2 minutes from the house so I can illegally drive the 4 wheeler down the road. With our just turned three year old her issue was concentrating/focus on blinds past 200 yrds. We worked on that over the winter and seemed to get that straight. I have changed my selection philosophy with her. I used to train more secondary selection but in the few Q's we ran in the fall she would primary select, long retired select,middle bird select, flyer last, it was always different than I wanted.I never knew which bird she was going to get and it drove me nuts. (She always made it through the marks series though) I decided in training to go to more ideal selection (natural) and just let her get what she wanted and concentrate some on the short bird last. It was no reason to fight her in training if she was going to do something different in a trial. An example would be a inline triple the other day with the middle retired going left bird, middle (retired) then the right go bird (flyer). She wanted the short middle first so I let her have it, it has worked out well so far. We have a small (43 lbs) 6.5 month alpha female pocket rocket nutcase. OB went well and started into FF but when the water temps opened up the OB went out the window. She wouldnt come out of the water  so back to OB. She is the toughest dog I have ever had to train. She takes pressure like no other dog I have been associated with even labs. A five doesn't even faze her on the collar and my 3 yr old jumps on a four. The heeling stick she looks at me and its like is that all you have? The good thing is she is a pinpoint marker and running the same AA setups as the 3 yr old but as singles and of course no cheaty water. I just find it neat she can run full blast 10 yards from the flyer station to the long bird over 300 yrds out at 6 months and step on the marks.These are with all bumpers as I dont do birds til after FF. So she runs first every day. IF we can get her under control she may be something special. She totally wears us out though! WOW! Take care and be safe!


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## myluckypenny

Met my field group to train yesterday, it was easily the best weather we've had yet this year. They are really doing a lot of work on check down marks with a stand out long gun. So interesting to watch these dogs run. The picture below is from google and is missing some hay bales that added another dimension. For the first half I was the thrower at the station marked #1 below. The picture shows how I ran it, the experienced dogs ran it backwards as a triple, with gun #2 retiring, and the line was back and to the left so that they had to get in the water on the go bird. These marks were super tight! The dogs really struggled but everyone got some great training in. 

When it was my turn to run Rio, I moved the start line to the right to avoid having him cheat (he's currently in swimby). Then we ran it as singles in the order marked. He did everything so well and was on the correct side of the gunner each time. Absolutely zero issues running past the short gun (#2) to get the last mark (#3). The only thing he did that we need to work on is squaring the ditch, but considering where we are at I was thrilled. He has been marking on his singles just incredibly well, so now I need to start working on his memory by adding doubles! Especially when I'm training with this group as I can have a gunner help on the memory bird.


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## FTGoldens

myluckypenny,

That's a great set-up ... running it as a triple makes it really tough to do right. 

It sounds like Rio is doing very well. So when are you going to start the doubles? It sounds like he's one that can be pushed a bit. We don't know a dog's weaknesses if the dog isn't challenged.

I hate failure, so It's sometimes difficult for me to do things that I don't think my dogs are capable of doing. Today was an example. A training buddy came out (we social distanced!); he has two AFC titled dogs. We shot flyers for each other's dogs. He then wanted to do a blind under the arc of the flyer with the bird crate still out and still occupied by a live duck; with the line about 175 yds from the crate. My mutts had never run a blind under the arc of a flyer, and to do it 175 yards from the line made it even more difficult ... I moved up about 25 yards and went for it. Frankly, they did okay ... both sucked into the flyer crate; one left the area of the crate with one cast, the other one didn't cast out so it got a medium nick*, which was sufficient. So yes, they "failed" the blind, but it's part of the learning process. 
*As for the nick, I am reluctant to give any adverse stimuli in the vicinity of a gun station, but with the cast refusal, I felt it was necessary; plus, this particular dog is nearly immune to the effects of adverse stimuli, so I don't anticipate deleterious carry-over, but I'll be watching for it.

FTGoldens


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## myluckypenny

@FTGoldens, He's definitely ready for doubles now. I didn't want to move on to those until I got the picture I wanted for singles. He was pretty out of balance early this spring because we'd done so much yard work over the winter. So when we went to the line he was super unfocused/flakey. So the guy I train with really wanted that focus before moving on to doubles. He's been hyper zoned in now for the last two sessions though, so everyone agrees he's ready for the next step. He's been introduced to some easy doubles I've done with my wingers, but he's ready for the bigger picture now.


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## SRW

FTGoldens said:


> I moved up about 25 yards and went for it. Frankly, they did okay ... both sucked into the flyer crate; one left the area of the crate with one cast, the other one didn't cast out so it got a medium nick*, which was sufficient. So yes, they "failed" the blind, but it's part of the learning process.
> *As for the nick, I am reluctant to give any adverse stimuli in the vicinity of a gun station, but with the cast refusal, I felt it was necessary; plus, this particular dog is nearly immune to the effects of adverse stimuli, so I don't anticipate deleterious carry-over, but I'll be watching for it.


Agree with being very cautious about collar correction near guns stations. Often dogs go out on the land blind in Quals because they won't take a line close to a gun station. One exception to the rule would be returning to an old fall.

I was also taught by training mentors, and agree; No pressure when teaching poison bird blinds and only train on them about once a week until they understand the concept. It is a confusing concept for a young dog to ignore and run past a mark. Pressure and too much repetition can have a very negative effect on marking.
The "Golden Rule" of simplify, simplify, simplify is particularly important here. I would, and have, walked out and taken the poison bird from the dog, set it back on the ground and resent the dog for the blind. He didn't do a bad thing, just the wrong thing. 
I also nearly always send the dog for the poison bird after completing the blind, it is good for memory and a reward for success on the blind. The exception to that rule would be if he repeatedly tried to get the poison bird or went to it on the return with the blind bird.


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## SRW

SRW said:


> Agree with being very cautious about collar correction near guns stations. Often dogs go out on the land blind in Quals because they won't take a line close to a gun station. One exception to the rule would be returning to an old fall.


I need to add, before you correct for going back to an old fall you must be certain of the dogs intent.
For instance the setup in post #14 ran as a triple. The dog picks up marks 1 & 2. You send for mark 3, it isn't retired but because of the terrain the dog may or may not lose sight of the gun in route. 
It is a tight setup so the dog may go through the fall of mark 2. 
If he cruises right through and on to mark 3, great. 
If he slows up going through the fall area of mark 2 but doesn't hunt and continues on to mark 3, still great. The dog had to think and made a good decision. 
If your dog has an issue with returning to old falls I think it should be dealt with on wider setups that are more black and white.


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## Edward Lee Nelson

Agree with both SRW and FT Goldens. I might add that I think we train our marks to tight at times and when a trial sets up a big wide open test dogs have issues. We need to train for both. I am guilty of training too many tight marks, yesterday we set a wide open very long right retired inline triple. I got a head swing out of her. She never head swings, back to singles for a few days. Also I think regarding returning to old falls( not talking about blinds)we dont teach enough as young dogs/pups running marks with multiple gunners in the field, through old falls, long bird first in between two stations and other different setups. I believe after a while it just comes natural to run by a gun station for the long bird if it has been run multiple times as a pup.. Just my opinion.


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## SRW

Edward Lee Nelson said:


> We need to train for both.


Yep, it is a continual balancing act. Have to be prepared for anything and everything.
Most of us do far more multiple marks than we should. A training friend spoke with someone that worked with Lardy not long ago. He was told that, with marks, about 90% of what they worked on was head swinging. Lots of singles with multiple guns in the field.


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## SRW

A couple blinds I ran with Jake yesterday. Used a launcher for a diversion mark. The X to the right was the first blind. The line taking him past the diversion, 10-15 yards. He did well, overcast once toward the end. I called him in 20 -30 yards and recast, he took it to the blind. He then picked up the diversion mark perfectly
The second blind was run from about 50 yards to the right of where this photo was taken. It made it tighter to the shore and required Jake to pass under the arc and within 5 yards of another diversion mark as well as some angled entries and exits through water and cover. Jake did this blind very well. One whistle and cast near shore before he exited the water. Close to shore with a high bank or cover, dogs lose reference as to where they are, something to be aware of and prepared for. He got a couple yards left of the line after he passed under the arc, I stopped him and gave a right back, which he carried to the blind.
Distances to the blinds was about 270 and 300 yards. The line was about 80 yards from the water


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## myluckypenny

Nice setup! Are you planning to come to the SVRC trial in September? Hope to see you there if you are! 

I actually have no training dog right now and its super weird. I sent him off to Rick Stawski in MN for a couple months. Not an easy decision but I normally like to take a break from field work in August and I wanted him to continue progressing, add in a new job and my sisters wedding my time has been limited lately. I'll get him back for hunting season because I am too excited for duck hunting and want him to have some fun too! I'm headed to visit him this weekend and I'm excited to see how he's progressed.


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## SRW

myluckypenny said:


> Are you planning to come to the SVRC trial in September?


I’d like to run there sometime. Mid Iowa is the same weekend and closer, we’ll see.


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## Edward Lee Nelson

SRW said:


> A couple blinds I ran with Jake yesterday. Used a launcher for a diversion mark. The X to the right was the first blind. The line taking him past the diversion, 10-15 yards. He did well, overcast once toward the end. I called him in 20 -30 yards and recast, he took it to the blind. He then picked up the diversion mark perfectly
> The second blind was run from about 50 yards to the right of where this photo was taken. It made it tighter to the shore and required Jake to pass under the arc and within 5 yards of another diversion mark as well as some angled entries and exits through water and cover. Jake did this blind very well. One whistle and cast near shore before he exited the water. Close to shore with a high bank or cover, dogs lose reference as to where they are, something to be aware of and prepared for. He got a couple yards left of the line after he passed under the arc, I stopped him and gave a right back, which he carried to the blind.
> Distances to the blinds was about 270 and 300 yards. The line was about 80 yards from the water
> View attachment 875693


Nice set up. I ran a similar set up on Saturday with the blind through the arc down a channel with points on both sides up a hill a bout 10 yrds. She did well 95% of the way but on the way up the hill she winded the saturated birds around the launcher on another mark 40 yrds away and she was gone. I was still pleased she didn't bank on the points, swam the channel and didn't cave to the bird station to the left of the blind. As they say there is a beginning, middle and a end to a blind.


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## SRW

Just two of us training today. 
First set up was a couple singles with a good cross wind. It died down by the time I took the pic but was about 10-12 mph right to left. It is about 40 yards to the water angling down a slope and an angled entry. On the far side of the pond the dogs have to work swimming through the weeds. The left mark was first and is about 50 yards past water thrown into brush. Grass is mowed with strips of tall cover left standing. 
Right mark lands in water behind some grass. 
The concept here is fighting the factors to maintain their line to the mark: fighting the cross wind, not fading toward the gunner, angling in and out of water and down a slope and angling through multiple strips of cover. In other words, much more than the photo shows. If the dog gives in to a factor, stop and handle. No pressure, this is a learning drill. These dogs really want the bird and don't like to be stopped, a whistle and a cast to maintain their line is all the correction they need. Jake did very well, straight to the bird on both.









Three singles closest to longest;
First mark down the shore. Very simple but the dog needs to go straight to the mark, no fading to the gun or landing early and running the bank.
Second mark thrown to a point, again go strait to the mark. 
Third mark thrown in and is about 70 yards past water. Dog must swim past the point where the previous mark was
maintain a good line until the water exit then let him figure it out on his own. 
Jake fade to shore very slightly on the first two marks and took one whistle and cast for each, that's training.
He was perfect on the long mark.









We did a long blind across water and called it a day. A lot of work going through cover and and pond weeds.
I think we accomplished something.


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## SRW

A couple setups from training yesterday.
First a triple, a flier with 2 retired guns. Order thrown was middle first, flier second and left bird last.
I think all picked them up flier first, then left and middle last.
The terrain is quite steep and there were some cover changes to push through. Wind was SE (north is up)









After the first set we ran a blind. The main concept here was getting the cast off the point. The ideal line is a slight dog leg due to the terrain (in training blinds don't have to be straight).
As you can see the "point" isn't much of a point. That's good, more tempting for the dog to wrap around and not take the cast to water. The point is also several feet above water level with fairly steep entry and exits.
The line passed down wind of where the flier was just shot adding more temptation to pull right.








Jake did great on the marks. On the blind he took a nice initial line and a cast up on the point. He tried to wrap around the point when cast off. He knew he was wrong, I stopped him and called him back to the top of the point under low collar pressure. I recast and he took it perfectly to the blind. Hope we gained something.


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## SRW

Last setup of training yesterday, two short retired guns and a go bird with a long swim.
On the go bird the dog has to pass by the two retired birds and fight a SE wind. The gunner standing right on the waters edge adds even more pull toward the shore. I think every dog wanted to land early, behind the gun. Jake did, one whistle and cast and he went straight to the bird. He knew where it was, just wanted to cheat a bit.
The short retired birds are a test of memory and teach the dog to "check down". After picking up a long mark dogs tend to want to go long again and will blow past a short retired bird. I give an "easy" cue, wait until he focuses on the mark and send softy. 
Jake remembered and stepped on both retired marks.


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## FTGoldens

SRW,

Great posts with the photos!

On Saturday we first set up two land marks with the long gunner retired and a blind; I had the marks thrown, then ran the blind ... main purpose was to work on memory for a long retired gun with exceptionally difficult terrain (it was at a new place for our dogs). Nothing surprising or exceptional happened on the land series. Then we set up three water marks with roughly 100 yard entries for all three marks ... one was a simulated flyer, one had a very cheaty entry and a bit of fairly heavy vegetation in the water, and another was a pretty big swim (guessing about 100 yards) followed by a big run (guessing around 150 yards) angling up a hill to the bird. I ran it as a triple with all gunners standing out so if they cheated the water I would be a bit more justified in correcting them for cheating (one of my two cheated; I stopped him, issued a correction, recalled him, and resent for that mark ... he drilled it, indicating that he knew how to get there but was being lazy the first time ... correction was justified).

On Sunday we again first set up two land marks and a blind. I had the short mark thrown, then pulled off to run the blind, then picked up the short mark (retired gunner) with the long gun standing out to draw the dogs away from the short ("easy") mark if they didn't go where sent. The blind was tough with an angle across a road, then angling into a corner of cover, then through a series of random hay bales, then past the point of a tree line, then through more hay bales to the blind. Then we picked up the short mark. After picking up the short mark, I had the long mark thrown (~300 yds) with the gunner staying out. After the land, we ran a short but challenging water blind which had a ~75 yard angle entry (plus, they had to run past a pretty good stretch of water), then they swam between the shoreline and an island, then got onto a high and heavily covered point, then off the point to the dam. The biggest issue for all of the dogs was that they wanted to get in the water far too early. Plus, one dog slipped a whistle as he exited the water and went over the dam ... that's never a pretty end.

We have a trial this weekend, so I'll be running singles, retired singles, and water blinds ... maybe a "stay-in-the-water" drill or two.

FTGoldens


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## SRW

FTGoldens said:


> Great posts with the photos!


Thanks, I hope they are of some help to others.
It’s good to have notes or of what you do in training. Much easier to keep track of your progress and to know what you need to work on.


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## SRW

A couple blinds this afternoon in a stiff crosswind, both were 350-360yards. 
Long angled entries and casts off points into the crosswind.


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## SRW

A couple blinds from early in the week. Poison bird was picked up after the shorter blind.
The longer blind was Jake's after school assignment. On the first blind he wanted to hunt when he got to the second point, lots of scent from geese there. No excuse, we are running a blind.
I made a foolish handling/training mistake. I stopped him as he was slowing down to hunt, dumb, dumb, dumb. 
He took the cast to the blind.
On the longer blind I gave him a back-nick-back on the first point. Second point he did not slow down to hunt but was getting offline to the right just a little. wanting to go the old blind and/or wrap around the point.
I stopped him and gave a straight back right cast, this is training, he should turn right and go straight back. He goes over the point out of sight and emerges heading to the old blind, bad dog. Stop-nick-recall to the point. Another straight right back and he does the same thing, very bad dog. Stop-NICK-recall to point. Another straight right back, he takes it perfectly, passes a couple feet upwind of the blind on the next point and carries the line across the water, then another 100 yards up the hill on the far shore, GOOD puppy. I stopped him and called him back to the bird.

At a trial I would have given the "safe" cast off the second point, a left angle back or even left over, casting him away from temptation. Training mentors have taught me a valuable lesson, always "challenge the cast" in training. Give the exact cast you want and correct if you don't get it. Jake wanted to go right on the cast off the last point. Wind, terrain and the previous blind we all pushing and pulling him there. That is the reason for the straight right back cast, he has to turn toward the temptation and overcome it. 
Obviously you have to be certain the dog knows what he is supposed to do, teach, teach and teach some more. 
This would be an example of a blind that takes a great deal of teaching to build up to.


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## SRW

Trained alone today.
A couple cheaty marks done as singles. Right mark was a thunder launcher. The left mark I used an ATV to drive out, threw a duck then drove back to the line to send. No stick man so it was a "retired gun". Driving away from the direction of the throw tends to pull the dog that direction and in this case, increase the temptation to cheat water. 
Water entry on both marks is angled, a very sharp angle on the left mark. Jake did both marks perfect today.
You need to be ready with the whistle and know how to read your dog on cheaty marks like these. Watch the dogs eyes at the line, is he planning to cheat?









A quad with 2 retired. I drove out and threw 1, 2R and 3R (about 30yds left of the photo thrown sharply back and right) The unmarked bird is a launcher thrown last when I returned tot he line. Wind was light from left to right.
Picked up launcher, 3R, 2R then 1. A white stick man on 1. 
The most difficult mark is 2R, retired and thrown along the treeline with wind blowing in. Lots of open space upwind left of the mark to hunt. The white stick man on 1 also tempting to turn right well short of the mark.
Jake did very well, dug back into the trees just downwind of the bird and picked it up.
Hope I don't do anything foolish to screw things up at or before next weekends trial.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Just got back from visiting the pups on their summer trip in Michigan. The same grounds the specialty will be held next year I believe. So beautiful up there. We trained a lot on concepts, leaving flyers on the ground while running multiple marks first, running tight to old falls (one was under the arc of the flyer one was skimming a short retired fall on water to go super long, you get the point) running multiple blinds with tight lines and others that were leaving poison birds and then running two blinds, and since we had so many hills we did a lot of lines angling across the slopes. It was great for me, I've been in puppy mode lately and when I walked up to the first big dog set up in months, it was a quad with an out of order flyer, I got a bit nervous, ha ha. But like my trainer said it was like riding a bicycle and it all came back to me....wish I was still there!


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## FTGoldens

MOP,
Welcome back to the real world!
Okay, a couple perennial, maybe even rhetorical, questions about pros' training regimen [the answers won't reveal any "trade secrets"  ].
Looking back over the time that you were in Michigan:
1. How many set-ups did you do in the typical day? (Count blinds run in conjunction with the marks as a separate set-up.)
2. What % of the time did the pro run his Open dogs on multiple marks (i.e., as a double, triple, or quad) vs. singles with multiple gunners in the field?
FTGoldens


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## SRW

FTGoldens said:


> What % of the time did the pro run his Open dogs on multiple marks (i.e., as a double, triple, or quad) vs. singles with multiple gunners in the field?


I predict the answer is far more singles off multiple guns than multiple marks.
One of the biggest advantages to training on great water and ground is the complexity that can be put into a single mark. In the real world we often need to run multiple marks to attain a level of difficulty.


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## MillionsofPeaches

we typically did two big set ups a day. There were a lot of clients out and they ran all their dogs besides the ones they had on the truck with Al. That takes all day to do. With less clients we have three set ups. I think we might have done three one day but that was because one was strictly blinds which goes faster. 

that week I did doubles with a blind first, I did a single with a double blind before picking it up the single, I did plain old multiple blinds no guns, I did a quad, I did several triples and I did a quad that was broken down as a double and then two singles. That was a converging set up with hills so the first mark retired on one hill with the stand out gun on the hill behind it. Shelly actually fell for the trap and went long on that one and had to be brought back and rethrow that short bird. Then we ran the long single that basically ran over the mark of the first shorter mark. 

There are lots of times we do singles but there is always a reason for the singles, like learning concepts or very tricky things you want your dog to understand. like that last set up I just described. So I would say singles are about 30% and 70% multiple guns or blinds incorporated which I would count not as a plain old singe.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Here is a set up I actually took a picture of. You can't see the slope of the hill going down but it was steep. All three lines ran through that small pond. Watch long bird then short bird pull off run blind. Now come back get short bird then long. That little corner to the blind going down that slope caused a lot of problems. Proof actually took a fantastic line to it which is a big deal for him he squares water a lot. Shelly on the other hand, whew, she was dead set on falling off that slope and squaring in. I had to get on her several times and finally just cast her. She was not having it. Young dogs don't like to cheat water if they are being told to, ha ha ha. Now if it was up to them then they'd have no problems running around ponds, lol!! Her and proof killed both the marks. Proof went around the point and shelly went over the point on the way to the short bird. The bird landed really on the edge of the point but on the other side of the pond. Winning dog would be proof because of that blind!


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## SRW

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Young dogs don't like to cheat water if they are being told to, ha ha ha.


Nice looking grounds and setup but I would not run a mark or blind that made a young dog think he was cheating water or that I was encouraging him to do so.


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## MillionsofPeaches

SRW said:


> Nice looking grounds and setup but I would not run a mark or blind that made a young dog think he was cheating water or that I was encouraging him to do so.


I don't think its telling a young dog to cheat just take a finer line around water. Not much different than your posts you did with those tiny corners you were cutting I would think. She is is 3.5. I'll tell my pro that he needs to change the set up.


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## SRW

MillionsofPeaches said:


> I don't think its telling a young dog to cheat just take a finer line around water. Not much different than your posts you did with those tiny corners you were cutting I would think. She is is 3.5. I'll tell my pro that he needs to change the set up.


No offense meant.
It would be very unusual to see a mark or blind in trial where a dog should take a fine line around rather than into water.
It is very common that taking a line around water on a mark will put the dog in a very bad position to find the bird. Taking a fine line around water after a cast on a blind will almost always send you home early.

In this setup I posted previously. The perfect paths to the marks, and the trained response, are sharp angle entries and exits and only a few feet into the water. I would never place the marks in this setup so that the paths missed the water buy just a few feet.


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## MillionsofPeaches

I think you are misunderstanding. All three lines go through that pond. There is no actual cheating around the water. I just meant in the dogs mind a lot of times they want to go fat into the water and not cut a piece of corner. Especially rolling down hill. There are three lines in that pond. One to the blind cutting a corner, one in the middle to the long retired and one cutting the other corner to the short bird. 

I think before you start posting you need to reread and look at the picture. I put a line for the blind, it clearly goes into the corner of that pond. 

This is becoming very annoying to me. Please just look at the photo and the water again and realize you are mistaken so we don't begin to confuse other readers. I believe you honed in on the word cheat from my first post but didn't understand or I wasn't clear what I meant. When I went to explain it you had it in your mind that I was asking the dog to cheat without opening your mind up to read the actual words I was saying. The cheating was a mental look to the dog....I wasn't asking for actual REAL cheating.


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## MillionsofPeaches

and one more thing.....A ton of the opens I've watched have indeed had dogs running past water to other water on blinds or marks. In fact there was a land blind set up TWICe by two different judges where the dogs had to run between to ponds and not get in them. Proof couldn't do it, he kept trying to bale in the water. Lots of dogs can't do that stuff but judges set it up. So maybe this is the new judges trick? I don't know. But all of that is besides the point. thats not what we were doing. We were just cutting a slice of that pond on a steep slope that rolled them in fat. They had to fight it and hold the angle and cut that corner. Its a very common, SRW.


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## SRW

MillionsofPeaches said:


> I think you are misunderstanding. All three lines go through that pond. There is no actual cheating around the water. I just meant in the dogs mind a lot of times they want to go fat into the water and not cut a piece of corner. Especially rolling down hill. There are three lines in that pond. One to the blind cutting a corner, one in the middle to the long retired and one cutting the other corner to the short bird.
> 
> I think before you start posting you need to reread and look at the picture. I put a line for the blind, it clearly goes into the corner of that pond.
> 
> This is becoming very annoying to me. Please just look at the photo and the water again and realize you are mistaken so we don't begin to confuse other readers. I believe you honed in on the word cheat from my first post but didn't understand or I wasn't clear what I meant. When I went to explain it you had it in your mind that I was asking the dog to cheat without opening your mind up to read the actual words I was saying. The cheating was a mental look to the dog....I wasn't asking for actual REAL cheating.


I did misunderstand. Your photo comes up very small on my computer and I can't determine the exact lines much less the terrain. 
The phrase "Young dogs don't like to cheat water if they are being told to" made me think you were doing just that.
Again, I did not mean to offend.


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## MillionsofPeaches

no biggie. I was just trying to be straight forward because I could tell you weren't picking up what I was throwing down....


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## Alaska7133

I've been working hard on flushing versus pointing. I went through a crate of 13 pigeons of the weekend. I think I've gotten Riot to quit pointing, Ugh I never thought this could possibly be a problem with a golden.
1. Set out taped pigeons in the brush. Sent both dogs out together. They raced to find the birds and flush them and catch them first. The competition aspect was excellent.
2. Threw taped pigeons up in the air in the general direction towards a brushy field while dogs watched. Birds flew for 150 feet and cruised through tall bushes/small trees and brush. Sent dogs to find birds. They came up with the birds every time, and they were pretty happy about it.
3. Used birds that weren't taped and just dizzy so they would fly fast up and away from the dogs when the dogs found them (no tape to slow or prevent the birds from flying). They lunged and chased after those birds and did everything they could to get them. Just what I wanted. They did return on a whistle recall and I didn't have to use the collar, but I let them go for quite a run before recalling them. I wanted them to get that excitement of chasing those birds and the birds getting away.

I think the light bulb might have gone off for him. He finally figured out that if the bird is live it might fly away. I really now regret not using tape wing pigeons when he was a puppy, he may not have developed this habit if he hadn't. At this point I don't give a **** if he sits on the flush or not, I just want him to get that bird with everything he's got. Who would have thought something so simple could become a problem. I encourage everyone to get some pigeons for your young dogs, don't make the mistake I did and skip that step. Yes maybe now I have a dog that won't sit on the flush, but I also don't have a dog that's going to wait for me to tell him to flush the bird. 
And Miss Ruby I think has learned a lot too. 
Grouse season starts in Aug 25th. I want 2 dogs working the field and bringing home some dinner.


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## SRW

A couple blinds, one with a diversion bird. This is an older areal photo, some trees have been removed. The terrain is steep, points are several feet above water level. It adds a little challenge, dogs are more incline to skirt around the points and will be out of sight if they don't take a good cast off. 

Just good training blinds not terribly difficult. We thought the bottom blind would be a great one for a Qual. A lot of little challenges in it but still a very fair test for younger dogs.

The top blind has a little more going on, even without the diversion bird. 
Picking up the diversion was more difficult than expected for some dogs. There was very little wind and we used a thunder launcher. Two AFC titled dogs had huge hunts deep of the mark and were finally handled. Jake took a line right to the bumper and back, if he had missed it by a couple feet he may have had a big hunt as well.


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## FTGoldens

I didn't have much time to train this morning, but ran a couple of land singles (~125 & ~150 yards), each with a ~225 yard blind tight (~10 feet) behind the "Tac-Man" gunners and Bumper Boys. Both dogs are doing these pretty well, but I like to visit fundamental concepts on a regular basis. This morning I put out visible-to-dog blind stakes so I was "ensured" of getting a good, tight line behind the gunners. 
If I have time this evening, I'll run similar marks/blinds without the blind stakes to see if I get good carry-over, in addition to (probably) some water marks.
FTGoldens


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## SRW

A couple blinds ran in opposite directions with a light cross wind.
First one ran north to south with a thunder launcher used for a poison bird, thrown away from the line.
Some randomly mowed strips create some good cover changes and angles.
The second blind was ran to the north across the pond and up the center of a narrow channel on the other side. Several cover changes both sides of pond.
Jake did well on both today, took and carried casts very precisely.


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## FTGoldens

FTGoldens said:


> If I have time this evening, I'll run similar marks/blinds without the blind stakes to see if I get good carry-over, in addition to (probably) some water marks.
> FTGoldens


The woes of a working field trialer ... during the hour after work that it's cool enough to train and there's daylight, it rained! Note that it rained for ONE HOUR ... but it was that one hour that I could train. Oh well, hopefully things work out better for training tomorrow.


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## SRW

Land Series of this weekend AM
Triple, a flier and 2 retired.
1R is wide to the left, 325-350 yards? 2R and flier fairly tight.
Terrain is steep, all marks across a deep valley.
The majority of the dogs climbed the hill short of the long retired gun, some recovered and came around to the bird. A few went wide and deep of the middle retired.
Jake was perfect on the flier and middle retired, climbed he hill going to the long retired but found the gunner and went quickly to the bird. Perfection is what we hope for, second best is watching your dog think himself out of trouble.
I think 34 were called back to the LB. 72 entered, not sure how many scratched.

The land blind wasn't so great. A nice challenging blind with a diversion mark picked up after. Everything pulling the dogs right and terrain and cover made recovery difficult for the dogs that got offline that direction. In hindsight I was over cautious and lined Jake up a little to much to the left. Had to give two right back casts, first he didn't take enough and brushed past the wrong side of the first "goal post". Second cast he took too much and went to the wrong side of a round bale before I could stop him. Last cast he took correctly but got hung up in drag back scent so I had to give a loud verbal with a back cast. We were out at that point anyway. Jake is used to drag back scent, just not 20+ dogs worth in tall wet grass.
The Golden nose sometimes saves you and sometimes hurts you. We don't often take the time to put down scent on the lines to blinds in training but clearly we should.


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## SRW

This was the water blind for the Qualifying Stake I judged last weekend. Approximately 150 yards through an S curve of a creek that feeds a small lake. Running and swimming water, angled entries and exits and a couple points of land to hit. The blind was about 40 yards past the last water exit. The dogs pass left of a mound with trees, to the right is a very inviting open field.
For anyone new to the game, I think this is a good example of what to expect in a Q blind.


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## FTGoldens

Judging a Qual, then winning an Amateur ... busy weekend!

A couple weeks ago I ran a Qual and had time to talk with the two judges, whom I've known for a very long time; between the two of them, there is at least 75 years of retriever field trialing and training experience! We discussed their water blind, which was similar to the one you set up ... angle entry, get in, get out, get in, get out. We discussed how 15 +/- years ago, for a Qual the dogs were never asked to get out of the water and back in, but instead always swam past any points or shorelines. Quals, as well as all other stakes, continue to become more demanding.

FTGoldens


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## SRW

Training alone today. Wind left to right.
A triple; 1R and 2R thrown left then I drove away to the right on an ATV. 
The go bird, 3 is a thunder launcher shot to the left. 
Driving away from a mark tends to pull a dog in that direction even more than walking away does.

After picking up the go bird (3) I sent Jake to 2R. He faded a little right in the water because of the wind then corrected himself half way across the pond and went straight to the bird. A very good mark with wind, terrain and drive away all influencing to the right. 
He returned and lined up for the last mark, 1R. I could tell that he remembered exactly where it was at. I could also tell that he intended to go around the right end of the tall cover on the far shore of the pond. He was looking at where the bird landed and his spine was lined up to the right end of the cover. I told him no and he line up correctly for the mark but I knew he was still thinking about going around the cover. Half way across the pond he turned just a little right, I stopped him, gave a low nick and a left back cast. He took the cast through the cover and to the mark.
Going around a point of cover, like he wanted to, will often put a dog in a difficult place to recover from on a more complex mark in a trial.


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## FTGoldens

Very nice set up.
For me, it would be a tough call to stop and give a correction on that memory mark, especially since it was retired and the third retrieve of the set up. Obviously, it worked out just fine with Jake, but certainly could create confusion with a less experienced dog.
With the wind pushing him to the right, with the go bird pushing him to the right, with the nearer shoreline pulling him to the right, with the big open boulevard pulling him to the right, there are a lot of factors involved in addition to the passage of time allowing for the possibility of him not precisely remembering where the mark landed but instead remembering where the gunner was standing. 
Nonetheless, I understand the thought process and the assumption that he was thinking about going around the cover.
FTGoldens


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## SRW

FTGoldens said:


> For me, it would be a tough call to stop and give a correction on that memory mark, especially since it was retired and the third retrieve of the set up.


Very Good point. I very rarely handle, much less correct, on a retired mark. Both can lead to big problems. 
I did in this case only because I was able to read Jake's intent at the line and again when he turned. 
I only gave a low 2 nick and a quick cast back to his original line, kind of like tapping him on the head and saying "I know what you are up to, knock it off".


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## SRW

An example of what we train for. Amateur stake, lasts series water marks, a triple, two retired guns and a shot flier.
The ideal route to the long bird has a couple re-entries. A nice setup, the judges did a great job.


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## SRW

Test dog about to run in the 4th series of last weekends field trial amateur stake. A wide triple, couldn't get it in one photo. 
Retired gun in the middle thrown first. Stand out gun on the right was second and thrown sharply back. Last bird a shot flier on the left. Multiple water entries on the flier and middle retired. 
I think there were ten dogs called back to the last series. Eight completed it, there were 4 JAMS and the placements.


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## MillionsofPeaches

that looks like Julie in the last photo!


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## SRW

MillionsofPeaches said:


> that looks like Julie in the last photo!


That is her.


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## FTGoldens

SRW,
CONGRATULATIONS ON JAKE'S AMATEUR THIRD!
That boy is _*HOT*_, finishing his last 3 Amateurs!
Just one more point to qualify!
Good luck this coming weekend!
FTGoldens


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## SRW

The Fuller's "Auggie" made it to the last series. He had trouble with the middle retired. I could not see but heard he had a hunt on the flier which would have made the memory bird tougher. A very nice dog though with plenty of talent and drive.

Also, Auggie cannot walk past a round bale without climbing on top of it.


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## SRW

SRW said:


> The Fuller's "Auggie" made it to the last series. He had trouble with the middle retired. I could not see but heard he had a hunt on the flier which would have made the memory bird tougher. A very nice dog though with plenty of talent and drive.
> 
> Also, Auggie cannot walk past a round bale without climbing on top of it.


Auggie got Reserve Jam at the Chippewa Valley Open. The fourth series was a monster of a triple with a 450 yard memory mark up the middle (probably over 300 yards of water), a 300 yard flier and a 275 yard "short" retired on the left. Finishing that test alone is impressive.


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## myluckypenny

I saw Roger's post that showed the last series and wow! Super impressive effort by those that finished the test!


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## SRW

myluckypenny said:


> I saw Roger's post that showed the last series and wow! Super impressive effort by those that finished the test!


For those that have never been to the grounds, it is even more impressive than can be seen in a photo.
You have to see the terrain to appreciate it.


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## DevWind

Well, I don't get to do a lot. We work on marks in my backyard here and there. His signals in Utility have been a focus right now. (Had someone give me excellent advice yesterday) Apparently, our work on tiny short doubles has gone further than I thought! Yesterday, my GR club had a get together and he was doing doubles! And with real ducks! I'm thinking we might work on field in the spring so he can at least get a WC.


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## SRW

The last blinds of the year.
A google map photo, snow on the ground and no leaves on trees. 
Wind was light from the south. Long blind about 350 yards, the other a little over 300. This is hilly terrain.
This would be a very good double land blind for an all age stake. I was very happy with Jake on these blinds.









The last marks of the year, decade actually.
All thrown to the right, my black lines are kind of hard to see. A slight cross wind from left to right.
The left mark was thrown into the strip of heavy cover and the middle bird landed about 15 yards behind directly behind a round bale.
I ran it as a triple, middle first then left and the longest bird on the right as the go bird.
The middle and left guns retired, picked up left bird 2nd and middle bird last. Jake finished the year in style with a perfect series.

Happy New Year to all.


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## myluckypenny

I made a new years resolution that I'm going to at least 10 cold blinds a week with Rio. One nice thing about it being so dry here is that the water on one side of our training grounds is 90% dried up. Which means I can run blinds over where there is normally water so he is getting lots of land blinds that will be very similar in picture to his water blinds come spring. I'm also lucky my training group still gets together every weekend, because while I can run blinds by myself I really need lots of practice running in front of people.


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## FTGoldens

Last weekend, the training group got together (the first time in about a month due to COVID scares and the holidays) and did a few "set ups." 
On Saturday, the first set up had a short mark on the right, and tight behind it was a middle length mark thrown hip-pocket to the short mark, and finally the go bird was on the far left as the longest mark sort of out of the picture of the other two marks. All guns stayed out. It wasn't pretty .... most (maybe all) of the dogs retrieved the left mark just fine, but when sent for the short mark they wanted to go to the middle distance/middle mark ... factors involved: longest mark picked up first, the hill side was such that the dogs started squaring up the hill before getting to the short mark which put them both upwind of the short mark and on a direct line to the middle mark ... these factors did not seem like they should have been so strong as to cause them to miss the short mark, especially with the short gunner staying exposed. Nonetheless, some pretty decent dogs screwed this up!
So on Sunday, we simplified the set up by running the middle mark as a single, then (after all dogs ran the single) we set up the triple again ... better results.
So then we moved the line and set up the mirror image of that set up ... for most of the dogs (not all), it was ugly again!
This is a MUST KNOW set up (plus, this is as simple as "go where sent"), so it will be retaught and revisited as necessary.
As the saying goes, "Amateurs work on it until the dogs can do it right; pros work on it until the dogs can't do it wrong!"


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## K9-Design

<As the saying goes, "Amateurs work on it until the dogs can do it right; pros work on it until the dogs can't do it wrong!">

Ugggg good one -- and unfortunately, true

I've started to learn on these concepts be it mark or blind, if I say OK dog we're gonna do this every day until you get it right....
they often start doing worse the more you try to hammer it in
But if you show them the same concept over and over again over time (say, we do this concept three times a month rather than three days in a row) they have a more relaxed and open attitude to it.
The problem is remembering to set it up and remembering that they made the mistake and to help or do whatever it takes so they don't just make the same mistake again!

Also...for years with my earlier dogs I ran memory birds as singles first. This past weekend I watched two very novice dogs have trouble on the memory bird of a double even after running it successfully as a single first. Starting to wonder if that's really the most effective way to help the dogs. It's starting to seem like just a good way to burn some energy rather than teach anything...???


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## Alaska7133

The thing I think we all need to remember is that often the person that ran the series right before us, may not have a job and/or a young family, and have all the time in the world to train. They may also send their dog off to a pro for the 6 months of the year they aren't running trials/tests. I think all us am's with jobs and/or families, need to give ourselves a break. I was training with a newbie a couple of weeks ago and she was really beating herself up on how her dog wasn't doing very well compared to the other dogs in her field class. I had to remind her and myself that we have jobs that can be very demanding and don't allow us the time off to spend all day training. So give yourself a break about not training those concepts often enough that we think we should. As trials/tests have gotten more and more difficult, us am's with jobs, have an even more difficult time keeping up with those that don't have the commitments we do. Those of you with young kids at home too, I have no idea how you get in the time to field train at all. Sometimes it's hard to find time to walk the darn dog! So pat yourself on the back for getting done what you do get done. Be happy that your dog enjoys the field work and the time you get outdoors together.


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## K9-Design

I gotta say, that is not how I think at all. I push really hard to train as smart and hard as I can. Nobody is going to give me a ribbon because they feel sorry for me. I've chosen this game and these dogs so I'm not going to settle on mediocre training. The only thing pros have over us is know-how. The crazy thing is, they are willing to share it. Could you imagine with their knowledge but just one dog, how far we could take our own dogs!? Don't settle because it's hard. If it was easy, everyone would do it.


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## FTGoldens

K9-Design said:


> Also...for years with my earlier dogs I ran memory birds as singles first. This past weekend I watched two very novice dogs have trouble on the memory bird of a double even after running it successfully as a single first. Starting to wonder if that's really the most effective way to help the dogs. It's starting to seem like just a good way to burn some energy rather than teach anything...???


K9-D, 
Is it the mark that the dogs struggle with or is it the mechanics of how a double works?
A training buddy of mine acquired a dog that was a little over a year old which was supposed to have had at least a bit of training on doubles before he got the dog. But the dog had no clue as to the mechanics of a double, so we had to start with that. He caught on to the idea pretty quickly once we figured out what the problem was.


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## K9-Design

FT - with one of the dogs I do think he has a little communication issue with his handler, the other dog plain old succumbed to factors and sucked toward the go-bird. Two different issues, clearly, but neither were helped by the single first. 
I'm starting to utilize gunner help for this sort of issue a LOT more than in the past...


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## MillionsofPeaches

FT this setup sounds interesting. I was wondering what way the guns were shooting and also I was wondering do you think it had anything to do with all guns standing out? Were they all thrown to the right or were they split up and the go bird thrown right and two others thrown left??? We ran a set up last month and it was a quad but all guns stood out and boy they struggled way more than I'd imagine. Just a thought.


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## FTGoldens

MOP,
Frankly, I'm not sure ... and my (very experienced and successful) training partners were equally surprised with the results.
The short right mark (thrown to the left) and the middle mark (thrown to the right) were pinched, so it's unlikely that the dogs were pushing off the short gunner.
It's possible that since the go-bird was long, the dogs simply didn't think that they should go short, which is a big problem ... I must get them used to doing that, whether the gunners are stand-out or retired.
Yesterday (training alone), I ran an interrupted inverted double and the pups did fine on it ... I'll repeat that set up today (if I have time), then tomorrow run a set up like the one which gave them so much trouble.


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## SRW

Alaska7133 said:


> I was training with a newbie a couple of weeks ago and she was really beating herself up on how her dog wasn't doing very well *compared to the other dogs* in her field class.


One of the first things a newbie must learn is not to compare their dog to others. Train and teach each dog based on what it needs.


K9-Design said:


> The only thing pros have over us is know-how.


The biggest advantage a pro has is seeing more dogs in a month than most amateurs see in a lifetime.


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## SRW

This is training in the winter in the upper Midwest.
I ran it as a full triple. Left bird thrown 1st to the right, middle bird 2nd sharply back to the left, right bird as the go bird.
Middle gun retired as soon as I sent on the go bird. Left gun retired after the middle bird was picked up. 
A lot of challenges in all three marks. A light wind was at the handlers back. On all three marks the dogs have to make decisions in route with bales, trees, cover and terrain. The middle retired required the dogs to cross the frozen pond, go over the pond dike, angle back up hill and dig in to the tree line for the bird. To create even more pull out to the open field, the left gun stayed out until the dog was returning with the middle bird. 

I was extremely happy with Jake on this setup. He stepped on every mark. 
Entered the Open and Am at the Red River Trial, the end of the month near Bonham TX. Want to win both but so do a lot of other handlers.
I'll just try to keep him running relaxed, confident and happy.









He is kind of lazy this morning.


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## K9-Design

Great looking setup!
We had an amazing training day yesterday. Was 40º when we started at 10 a.m. but warmed up to 60º in the afternoon. Land triple with flyer first, then two whopper water marks with a nice crosswind. Fun day.


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## SRW

The view from my door today. More snow, sub-zero temps and 30-40mph wind coming.


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## FTGoldens

SRW,
Great photo of a very nice set up. Let's get some discussion going on it:
1. Why did you shoot the marks in the order of left, middle, right?
2. Why did you make it a point to throw the middle mark sharply angled back to the left?
3. Why did you have Jake pick up the middle mark second?
3.a. Was the middle mark shorter than the right mark/go bird?
3.b. If so, why did you set it up that way?
4.. Give us a little more explanation as to why you left the left gun out until Jake picked up the middle (retired mark)?
4.a. What would you have done if had Jake swerved over to the left mark after you'd sent him to the middle mark?

[That's a pretty high level set up for a very advanced dog.]

FTGoldens


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## SRW

I'll give it a shot Andy.



FTGoldens said:


> 1. Why did you shoot the marks in the order of left, middle, right?





FTGoldens said:


> 2. Why did you make it a point to throw the middle mark sharply angled back to the left?


The wind and terrain dictated the order on that day. (Not that it couldn't have been done a little different)
The middle retired was thrown sharply back to keep it in the cover on the edge of the timber. The wind blowing into the timber would not give up the bird if the dogs did not mark it well and dig in to find it.



FTGoldens said:


> 3. Why did you have Jake pick up the middle mark second?


I think it increased the difficulty. Picking up the left bird second would have created some push toward the middle. I wanted to leave the left side open as a temptation.


FTGoldens said:


> 3.a. Was the middle mark shorter than the right mark/go bird?


About the same in this set up. A long go bird with a shorter retired is something we work on frequently though.


FTGoldens said:


> 4.. Give us a little more explanation as to why you left the left gun out until Jake picked up the middle (retired mark)?


It creates some pull away from the middle retired. For an inexperienced dog it can be a huge concept. Jake is used to it but you need to always maintain and reinforce the concept.


FTGoldens said:


> 4.a. What would you have done if had Jake swerved over to the left mark after you'd sent him to the middle mark?


Jake really locked in confidently on the middle retired so if he had swerved to the left it would have been blatant disobedience and dealt with accordingly.
If he had shown any confusion at the line I would have handled if he made it most of the way out. If he drifted left soon after leaving the line I would probably have brought him back, talked him into the middle bird and resent.
When he was less experienced I may have had the gunner stand out for a second and retire again. Sometimes you can have the gunner throw another bird. Of course the gunners can always help, give a "hey hey" to keep the dog in the area. With young dogs you need to keep the success rate high but also challenge them.

I would not run this as a full triple with a young dog. Better to break it down into singles or a double and a single, we run many singles off multiple guns with experience dogs as well. 

Interested in hearing what others think.


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## FTGoldens

Thanks SRW, great explanations as the "whys"!

With regard to Q #1, I have a few additional thoughts/comments (these re largely from a judge's perspective). In this set up, the most difficult of the three marks is typically the short retired middle mark (for the reasons stated by SRW). By having it thrown second, it becomes even harder for a few additional reasons: (a) the primacy-recency effect comes into play, (b) the handler/trainer cannot have the dog staring down that middle gunner when it is shot, and (c) if the right hand/last mark is a flyer, there's a chance that the dog will swing its head/eyes all the way from the left mark to the right mark without pausing to watch the middle mark thrown.

I train my two mutts on this concept on a fairly regular basis. One of my dogs "gets it," the other one simply hasn't caught on yet; these dogs are littermates, having the same trainer and exactly the same training (subject to slight variations due the particular/peculiar needs of the individual dog). That makes training interesting to me.

FTGoldens


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## SRW

A flier on the right would have been great. If we had a larger training group that day could have put two gunners there to simulate a flier and create more pull. 
For those interested in getting into field training and competitions, many trials are won or lost on retired guns.
FT Goldens asked if the middle retired was shorter than the go bird. The reason, after running to a long bird a dog typically wants to run long again and will blow past a short retired ending up in no mans land. I suspect everyone that has ran field trials has been there a few times. People worry a lot about the distances of marks in field trials, very often it is a short retired mark that eliminates the most dogs.
To make it even more difficult, you have to be prepared for loooong retired birds as well. Often the line will take the dog close to a short gun or through cover and terrain changed that tend to push the dog of line or break down and hunt short.



FTGoldens said:


> there's a chance that the dog will swing its head/eyes all the way from the left mark to the right mark


Head swinging and how to prevent/minimize it, that's a big part of field training. Definitely a bigger challenge for some dogs than others. I count myself as very fortunate with Jake. It has never been a huge issue for him, I am still very diligent about watching for it though.
Head swinging is one of the reasons you need to be careful about throwing too many multiple marks for a young inexperienced dog. They need to watch those birds all the way to the ground and then some.


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## Edward Lee Nelson

FT Golden’s and SRW thanks for the diagrams and detailed explanations. Selection is something I have really worked on this winter as my young female has a mind of her own, she may primary, secondary and ideal select during a trial, from long bird first/last, to retired first/last and go bird/flyer first/middle or last you can name it she does it. It can drive you crazy on the line at a trial. It usually works out but as we move to the AM this spring I needed more control on the process. Now the 15 month old just wants to run 500 yrds for a mark🙂 thanks again.


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## myluckypenny

Currently I'm jealous of all the trial news I saw over the weekend while lamenting on our sub-zero temps that appear to be hanging around for the next week. No outdoor training for us sadly.


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## SRW

A training test from yesterday. I drew the lucky number and was in charge of setting up the tests. A little pressure when you are training with very experienced field trialers.
A loooong go bird in the right with two retired guns on the left. The short retired bird is the main concept here. This was the last setup of the day and the dogs did pretty well overall. We ran the same concept in a different place earlier. The days off due to weather had the dogs amped up but a little rusty and out of shape.
Back at it today, we have two weeks to polish up before the first trial.


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## FTGoldens

With the horrible weather in our region (uncomfortable for people,unsafe for dogs), training was on hold for 10 days. Quite unfortunate timing because I am running a trial this coming weekend! (Admittedly, there's never a good time for the disastrous weather we just went through!)
It warmed up a bit yesterday, so the pups ran a three long but straight-forward blinds and a key-relationship drill, largely to get their minds back in the game. 
Today they ran three "concept-y" singles and two fairly long blinds with a couple of factors in each blind. 
Tomorrow, I think I'll set up a couple of tough retired singles and pull them off the marks to run a blind before letting them get the singles, just to make them use a little bit of memory. 
I suspect that a bunch of other folks running the trial find themselves in the same situation ... lots of stuff to do to sharpen up marking and handling, with little time to do it before the trial.
FTGoldens


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## Edward Lee Nelson

Yes the weather has been horrible here in MD also. Everything finally thawed out from snow,sleet,ice and rain etc. but the fields are nothing but mud. Our just turned 4 yr old just got spayed on the 9th so she will be out for another week or so. The nutcase 16 month old really needs to get work in. She is a pacer and has adhd🙂, so she is bouncing off the wall and up at 2:30 am. Hopefully the 4 yr old will be ready to trial the first week of April and the nutcase for a Derby the first week in May. I need to revisit swim by and more complex water multiples with her.Keep the faith Spring is on the way!


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## SRW

Today's blind.
I would guess 400-450 yards.


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## FTGoldens

Although the water was cold, the air temp was around 65, so I ran the mutts on a short down-the-shore water blind with a pretty severe angle entry. 
Then I ran them on a couple land doubles, one with the long gunner retiring, the other with the short gunner retiring.
Tomorrow I won't have much time to train, so I'll probably do some line behavior drills (like wagon wheel) and a casting drill.
FTGoldens

(I need to learn how to post pics like SRW!)


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## SRW

FTGoldens said:


> (I need to learn how to post pics like SRW!)


If I can do it anyone can.


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## MillionsofPeaches

well, the sun came back to GA. I am just out of quarantine from having Covid and yesterday was my first day back. I am nervous as hell because I have all the neurological symptoms and it is really confusing me a lot when I think too hard. So that being said, running blinds was scary yesterday. ha. For some reason we have been doing a lot of double poison bird blinds in training lately so that's what we've been working on. Now with the sun, water will be 95% of training from now on. With the younger pup its crazy reteaching and remembering all that I have to train her on. Right now she is 13 months and she is really doing well but big big water marks spook her out so no pressure and breaking them down or showing her the line through casting. She just developed this fear right before I took my test on this mark so now we've been working on them as singles again and yesterday I was proud of her. She had her old confidence back, excited to look out long across several pieces of big water and took off. I showed her the line instead of getting on her when she turned off a dike instead of crossing over it but then we reran it as the double and she lined the long mark. So it looks like she is back to it. She is a real balancing act. She is very gifted in a lot of areas so training her is definitely desirable and she has so much go and loves to work. But she is very sensitive and I learned my lesson with Proof. I am going super super slow and easy with her and it is paying off!!!!


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## SRW

It was my day to direct the training yesterday. This was the first setup.
These are long marks. Go bird in the middle and retired guns left and right. I believe the right mark was about 580 yards. The ground is relatively flat but there are many subtle dips and slopes that influence the dogs much more than one would expect. We train in very hilly terrain often and the dogs learn to hold their lines and not climb or fade down hill. Here these subtle terrain changes can influence a dog and they don't realize it. 
After the first few dogs struggled with the long retired, handlers started breaking down the test and running the right mark as a single. Need to build confidence in running this far for marks.
Our next setup was a double with 250 and 500 plus yard marks. Everyone ran them as singles with stand out guns. With the conditions yesterday it is unlikely that the dogs were seeing the long marks other than possibly at the top of the arc. Experienced dogs will run to the gun and hunt where the mark should be when they don't see it from the line. 
There are drills to teach this.









Here are three blinds we finished the day with. The distances are very deceptive. The shortest, on the left, is over 300 yards. The other two are quite a bit farther.


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## MillionsofPeaches

trial weekend past. Proof no good in first series. Shelly did super first series and pretty good on her land blind but water blind she wouldn't cast towards the dry pop gunner on a no see em blind. SO>.....she also had done this at her last trial and also was a jerk to Al while he was running her on a land blind/water blind with a dry pop in the open. So three dry pops in past three trials and shelly says dry pop = don't have to do what you say. 
I am assuming if you've read this far you know exactly what I'm working on this week.....


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## FTGoldens

My trial report:
Open: In first series my male missed short middle retired and ended up 300 yards deep ... and it was even an UGLY pickup.
Qual: In first series, female had beautiful set of marks ... nailed the long retired that most dogs had big hunts on; second series land blind was good; third series water blind was fair, with a couple cast refusals off an island and into the wind put her a little left, but she finished strong; fourth series water triple with short retired on the shoreline and a long punch bird up the middle ... she nailed the flyer and punch bird but missed the short retired on the upwind side (the biggest disappointment was that she passed within 5 feet of the gun stand and didn't recognize it as a place to slow down).
Am: The first two series were in a combo ... with the two gunners standing, the dog goes to the line and runs a 350 yard blind tight behind the short gunner on the side of a HUGE dam, then after the dog comes back with the bird from the blind the gunners shoot a double with the long retiring gunner around 400 yards and the short gunner at 150. Female failed the blind ... she simply didn't understand what was going on and thought she just hadn't seen the short gunner throw a bird. Male had a decent enough blind to be invited to run the two marks, which he absolutely chalk-lined. Third series water blind was around 200 yards with a strong cross-wind blowing into the very nearby shoreline ... he bombed out. 
Even though I didn't finish any stake, I was happy with the way that they ran in the trial ... they have been trained in the water a total of two times since November, so the lack of water work showed.
Next trial will be in three weeks ... hopefully the temps will be climbing enough to get them in the water.
FTGoldens


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## MillionsofPeaches

Andy, yeah this weekend I was actually not upset about because of the water work. The first series in the open was weak as far as a set up. The middle bird, I'm not kidding you was the most contrary bird I've ever seen in my time doing this. It was Bruce Hall's front pond by the barn. The retired gunner on a mound throwing behind a pond with a u shaped inside. The end of pond is angled to your left about 150 yards. Flyer is middle right long retired. The gunner through left to right. The dogs were either swimming down the pond past the retired gunner and then hunting behind him or they were running around the pond straight to the bird. Shelly (MRS CHEATER) took a perfect line slicing the right corner of the pond and coming in right on the bird. Then the water blind Al ran her on she also sliced the corner of the ponds in the perfect spot. I was proud because I have her with me. Al hasn't run her by himself except twice when I had the covid. I've been busting ass on drills around my 1 acre pond about her slicing different angles in the pond. So to me, I saw a lot of really good work on that part. I forget that your dogs and Shelly are only a few months apart too. Its nice to talk shop.

Today me and al went out and replicated some of the dry pop blinds as best we could. He popped while I ran her. She one whistled them. He came back saying, **** I wish all the open dogs would run blinds that good so what's going on? I REALIZED up there that I didn't NO her off the gunner. Usually with a poison bird I say no heel and pull them off. Well I was doing the same thing with the dry pop without realizing it. This time I pointed her at Al and sent her and she pushed off just enough like she would with gunners in the field. So Al said, yes, I bet you were telling her no without realizing it. So HOPEFULLY we have this nipped in the bud. Al is going to do some hidden ones tomorrow to practice that concept as well and I'm going to do some no see em blinds around my pattern blinds here at the house. Hopefully we can get this stuff worked out in her head. 

Proof we are going back to only singles in the field. I'm worried I've been working so hard on blinds that now his marks are down. its always something. I wish he hadn't been my first dog, lol. poor dude. 

Dilly Dilly worked on long long long water singles to build her courage up. She came back on the first one and realized that Im to be a little more respected. After that she basically lined all the huge water marks even the triple pond ones. BIG water. So that is nice. She's running her first derby soon. She's young and I don't know if she's ready but its on our home grounds and I'd like to see. She's a major spaz at training but never ever breaks. I want to see what she does at a trial.....


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## SRW

Today's last set up, two water marks. I think everyone ran them as singles. Trial coming up this weekend so most want to break down concepts, work on perfect marks with no head swinging. Hard to tell from the photo but there are several water re-entries on both, I think 4 on the left and 5 on the right. Lots of angles to deal with as well. The right mark could be thrown outward (easier) or inward (harder), I had it thrown in. Very happy with Jake today, that is him returning with the 2nd bird. His attitude is good and he was near perfect one everything we did today. 
We did do a water blind after this set up. I handled poorly at the end of it but the hard part was the first two thirds and he did that very well.


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## FTGoldens

SRW said:


> Today's last set up, two water marks. I think everyone ran them as singles. Trial coming up this weekend so most want to break down concepts, work on perfect marks with no head swinging. Hard to tell from the photo but there are several water re-entries on both, I think 4 on the left and 5 on the right. Lots of angles to deal with as well. The right mark could be thrown outward (easier) or inward (harder), I had it thrown in. Very happy with Jake today, that is him returning with the 2nd bird. His attitude is good and he was near perfect one everything we did today.
> We did do a water blind after this set up. I handled poorly at the end of it but the hard part was the first two thirds and he did that very well.


SRW,
That looks like a nice piece of water!
FTGoldens


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## SRW

FTGoldens said:


> SRW,
> That looks like a nice piece of water!
> FTGoldens


It is and that's just a little piece of it. 
Pin Oak Kennels, Ravenna TX


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## FTGoldens

SRW said:


> It is and that's just a little piece of it.
> Pin Oak Kennels, Ravenna TX


Isn't that the remake of Rex Carr's CL-2?


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## SRW

FTGoldens said:


> Isn't that the remake of Rex Carr's CL-2?


The CL-2 pond is on the other side of the lane, behind me when I took the picture of today's test. We trained on it yesterday. That is *TECHNICAL* water.


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## FTGoldens

Check out:
CL-2 @ 37.8269771,-120.8544419
Pin Oak @ 33.71007,-96.23962

Leo Joseph's (built by Rick Mock) @ 31.23423,-91.30401

I wish I had one of those water complexes in my backyard!


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## MillionsofPeaches

Andy, Roger's waterworks in Onaway.ha ha....

Yesterday we did more water water water even though it got cold...Dog did okay. Didn't end up doing dry pop. Al and me rotate running shelly now so I did marks yesterday and he did the blind stuff. Proof did good, we made it really doable for him. Also worked on poison bird drills over hay bale squares....that was fun. I'm laughing, shelly does not like jumping over something like a limb. So Proof loves it. Yesterday was the first time for the bales...Proof looked like a **** gazelle out there. He is so graceful and loves it....Shelly. ****, I was worried she'd scratch her chest...no, kidding but she is not made for leaping. I saw that and now I see what its not her thang to jump over limbs, ha ha...more meaty bull girl.. ha ha. Dilly Dilly we did land holding angles across slopes and staying low on hills and not driving up....She also did big water set up doubles piggy backing off her long singles yesterday and she pounded the memory birds over all the ponds. So proud of her, and her attitude is enthusiastic so I think she worked her way out of whatever spooked her the other day...So moving forward and training for the trial weekend.


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## FTGoldens

MOP,

Roger's: Oh yes! I'd have included that place if I had the GPS coordinates ... that place is as good as it gets!

"_Dilly we did land holding angles across slopes and staying low on hills and not driving up_." 
Yep! At a trial where dog-after-dog-after-dog drove up a slope when the mark was at the bottom of the hill, an A List pro was asked if there are any dogs that don't tend to climb up a slope, his response was, "That dog ain't been born yet!" (BTW, you may recall that's what a whole bunch of dogs did on the flyer and the left retired mark in the Am at the last trial I saw you ... who in the world would set up marks like that?!?!?!)

FTGoldens


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## MillionsofPeaches

ha ha ha who would have thought???? ha ha ha!!!!


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## SRW

First series of the AM last weekend
Hen pheasant flier on the left.








Middle retired was a hen pheasant.
Right retired was a duck.








The order thrown was right , middle, then the flier on the left.
I don't know the distances other than the retired guns were farther than the flier and we are in Texas and they like far down here.
The right retired was the money bird for most in this test. It was thrown to the left from the bottom of a pond dike toward the top in moderate cover. Hard to see in the photo but the terrain in route to the bird was varied with hidden water and distractions that confused many dogs. 
Jake did this series well with just a very short hunt on the right bird. Had a great land blind too but then crashed and burned on the water blind.


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## hollyk

I haven’t post here lately. Not much to add to the conversation. I run HT at MH level. Have always wanted to run a Qual but was so unsure. In thr last 6 months been trying to push more to Q stuff.
Flyer was entered in our first Qual yesterday and he got a jam. While this highlight what we need to work on we weren’t overwhelmed and there were a lot of good take aways. I think we will train and try again.
On a side note I broke my shoulder in December and can only extend my right arm so that the palm of my hand is just over the level of my head. I just started running blinds the beginning of March. I don’t think my wonkie casting has really hurt us much. Flyer has adapted pretty well. I do think i tend to over cast to the right. A compensation that is probably not needed.


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## MillionsofPeaches

congratulations Holly! I'm proud you got over your nerves and stepped in the ring. and you had success!! I have no doubt you will be QAA with more tests and continued hard work. 

I've had a fun couple weekend trials. last weekend my derby dog won her first trial and that was crazy fun. Proof and shelly both got back to second series then proof to third. It was nice going into the blinds with two dogs, ha ha. This past week I went to Anney's and trained all week. She set up fabulous training grounds and a nice group to train with. Of course we had to hit up Chuys. I was so excited because shelly has been flaring branches in training and trials like crazy and its such a mess of an initial line. Also dikes or mounds. Obstacles in general. Proof jumps over them like a gazelle but shelly ugh. Then she has been struggling looking out and finding guns in bad lighting or with flyers or short guns. I can't tell if its bad luck or just a lack of trying in a trial cause she's fine in training. So this week I worked on those. Also roads also working on crossing roads and taking casts into strong winds. So I was excited to say that she looked past guns this weekend, went over the branch on the land blind, hopped the mound on the water blind and swam past the gunner against the wind in the fourth and ended up with a second in the amateur!! I love it when things like that happen. The things you work so hard on and you get success at a trial for them! It was nice. 
Now I'm working on Dilly Dilly's angles and exits on water with gunners that aren't visible in the water. Steadier on line. Proof working on picking up poison bird and the first bird thrown still gets him, and Shelly all the same things I mentioned and I'm going to watch her sits on the whistles.


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## FTGoldens

MillionsofPeaches said:


> congratulations Holly! I'm proud you got over your nerves and stepped in the ring. and you had success!! I have no doubt you will be QAA with more tests and continued hard work.
> 
> I've had a fun couple weekend trials. last weekend my derby dog won her first trial and that was crazy fun. Proof and shelly both got back to second series then proof to third. It was nice going into the blinds with two dogs, ha ha. This past week I went to Anney's and trained all week. She set up fabulous training grounds and a nice group to train with. Of course we had to hit up Chuys. I was so excited because shelly has been flaring branches in training and trials like crazy and its such a mess of an initial line. Also dikes or mounds. Obstacles in general. Proof jumps over them like a gazelle but shelly ugh. Then she has been struggling looking out and finding guns in bad lighting or with flyers or short guns. I can't tell if its bad luck or just a lack of trying in a trial cause she's fine in training. So this week I worked on those. Also roads also working on crossing roads and taking casts into strong winds. So I was excited to say that she looked past guns this weekend, went over the branch on the land blind, hopped the mound on the water blind and swam past the gunner against the wind in the fourth and ended up with a *second in the amateur*!! I love it when things like that happen. The things you work so hard on and you get success at a trial for them! It was nice.
> Now I'm working on Dilly Dilly's angles and exits on water with gunners that aren't visible in the water. Steadier on line. Proof working on picking up poison bird and the first bird thrown still gets him, and Shelly all the same things I mentioned and I'm going to watch her sits on the whistles.


Holy Schmokes! An *Am SECOND!* 
MOP, that's fantastic and a great accomplishment ... even if was with the OTHER breed!  You work hard at it and it's paying off!
Congratulations!
FTGoldens


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## SRW

A blind we ran last week. The terrain is steep. First water entry is at about 80 yards, on the first point, past the second point that is hard to see in this photo. The point at the end is not very pointy, just a curved shoreline that tempts the dog to stay on and wrap around out of sight. The idea is to get a big angle cast into the wind off the last point. When the dog took the correct cast a bumper was thrown past the dog from a holding blind left of the point.
Wind was from the right.









Below is a double blind, wind from the right.


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## SRW

First series in the Am today
Right retired thrown right, left retired thrown left, long flier in the middle thrown to the left.
This was a very difficult series. I believe 39 dogs started the trial, 17 called back to the second series
several of those were handled.

Very pleased with Jake on this series, he pounded it.


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## SRW

The last series of the Am today combined the water marks and blind.
All birds thrown to the right.
Right bird 1st then middle and the left bird last.
The left bird was sort of a simulated flier with a shot, thrown into water and sluiced (shot on the water). There was a n honor in this series. 
After picking up the first mark the blind was run. It was a sharp angle entry to water, on and off a point, then out of water another 150 yards.
The two remaining marks were picked up after a successful blind.
A tough test. For Jake and I it was an example of the little things that can hurt you in a test.
Jake had the guns all picked out as we approached the mat. I got him focused on the right gun and signaled for the birds. With the exception of when a live flier is shot, I am watching the dog and not the thrown birds.
Jake swung his head off of the right gunner just as I heard the shot, did not watch the throw, He watched the last two birds and picked up the left mark when sent. He then ran a good blind.
I did my best to get him lined up for the right retired that he didn't watch. He had a good initial line but faded wide right in the second water. I tried to handle to the bird but he did not take enough cast.
He got the bird with gunner help. 

One of the judges told me he watched Jake swing off the gun watching a swallow fly by right after the shot.
I have seen that in training a few times. I am sure Jake realized his error but not seeing the right bird fall made it all but impossible to get. It was hard enough for the dogs that watched it.


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