# My Fireside Retriever Puppy - Giz-Moe Elbow & Sesamoid Problems



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

A puppy is not an engineered widget. Even following through with all the precautions a breeder can undertake, there is still a fair amount of random chance involved. If the bones are not formed correctly it is unlikely the dog will ever be able to compete in any venue.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Swampcollie said:


> A puppy is not an engineered widget. Even following through with all the precautions a breeder can undertake, there is still a fair amount of random chance involved. If the bones are not formed correctly it is unlikely the dog will ever be able to compete in any venue.


I'm aware. I would just like him to be able to go outside and run around with our other dog. I'm not worried about competing at all. We just want him to be able to be a healthy, happy pet. There are never any guarantees when you buy a puppy with thoughts of competition in mind. If you want a guaranteed competitor you buy one.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I'm so sorry. I know the disappointment has been replaced by concern for his ability to live a good life as a pet... I wonder, if no prior litter has produced problems, if dam had been exposed to something that made cell division go awry... don't know what that would be, but imagine there IS some sort of toxin that could do that, resulting in the dwarf and your precious puppy... your vet can get on VIN and ask for opinions, I will ask my daughter do same so maybe if there are two or more asking, someone will see it...


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> I'm so sorry. I know the disappointment has been replaced by concern for his ability to live a good life as a pet... I wonder, if no prior litter has produced problems, if dam had been exposed to something that made cell division go awry... don't know what that would be, but imagine there IS some sort of toxin that could do that, resulting in the dwarf and your precious puppy... your vet can get on VIN and ask for opinions, I will ask my daughter do same so maybe if there are two or more asking, someone will see it...


Thank you, I truly appreciate any help I can get. This is way out of my league as a pet owner. I will ask my local vet to do that tomorrow when I speak to him.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> Thank you, I truly appreciate any help I can get. This is way out of my league as a pet owner. I will ask my local vet to do that tomorrow when I speak to him.


VIN is subscription based but it is a wonderful resource. I hope he has access to it. LMK!


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

My girl has an eye issue called Geographic Retinal Dysplasia. While researching this problem I found it is sometimes associated with dwarfism, more commonly associated with Labs. It's a genetic thing that can be tested for. Go to the pawprint genetics website and see if that helps you find some answers. Basically they inherit a defective gene from both parents.
I hope this helps and so sorry you and your pup are facing this challenge.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I asked if you have copies of the xrays - for education purposes, but besides that and more than that - I meant to say how really heartbreaking it was to read your post. I have a friend who has a dog with a deformed foot (likely caused by the mom stepping on it). Not the same thing as your dog, but similarly enough - she had to give up a lot of big dreams for that dog. And especially with your dog being almost a year old, it is a hard kick in the stomach when it happens this way - especially when you have a very active dog. And to be worrying about putting the dog through too much - it's heartbreaking and awful. I don't know what to say on that account - I really hope that there's light ahead and things get better tomorrow and the next day.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Let yourself cry, I would be crying too. Having Moe in pain and worrying for his future is a devastating blow. The huge amount of money and loss of your dreams and plans are an added layer of pain. Please know that I am praying for your strength and clarity on the best steps forward for Moe and for you. This is truly a heartbreaking blow. I'm just so sorry.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I am so sorry you and Moe are having to deal with this. Hopefully they will figure it out and treat it so he can have a good life. I'm glad he has you taking such good care of him. Saying a prayer.


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## suzydee (May 7, 2012)

Just read your post...my heart hurts for you guys. Your Moe is certainly fortunate to have such loving, and caring humans! I will pray also that it will turn out ok...keep us all posted.


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## Betsy (Jan 12, 2011)

I am sooo sorry for your heartbreak. Few things are more agonizing than seeing your pup suffer and you’re not sure what you can do. I so hope you get some viable options.???


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Thank you everyone. I drove him up this morning and dropped him off for testing today. I could have left him there yesterday, but I just thought he would be better at home. It's about a two hour drive for us. He's not eating very well, which really has me worried. I am more hopeful today. Yesterday was just a really hard blow. I've gone from thinking it was one foot to two, then they added in the left elbow, and yesterday to hear it's both elbows is just a lot to try and deal with. I hope that they have some answers for me tonight when I pick him up. They also did some more blood work yesterday, but I'm not even sure what they are looking for. I'm hoping I have him at the right place. I am praying that they are wrong about something. I'm just hoping I get some good news. I've never had one of our pets in a situation that the vets just didn't know what to do. 

I will update when I know more. When you have an older dog you know you will be faced with tough decisions sometimes, but when you look into the face of a 10 month old it changes everything.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

I'm so sorry you're going through this. Such devastating news. I hope you can get some answers from the vet today.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Univ of Penn called at lunch time today. They did the CT Scan yesterday and made a 3-D image of his feet. They have diagnosed Congenital Bipartite Fragmented Sesamoids. It is affecting the 5th toe in the right foot, and the 2nd toe in the left foot. He also has mild bilateral ED. The only information they gave me over the phone was that the ED was part of the coronoid process and it was resulting in some sclerosis. They said they felt he needed surgical intervention on both feet due to the pain he is experiencing. They do not perform this surgery often, and stated it is a challenging surgery. They are going to try to get the right group of people together this afternoon and form a plan.

They are going to e-mail me images, radiology reports, and the surgical recommendations of the team later today. I've called Veterinary Orthopedic Sports Medicine Group in Maryland and have an appointment for a consult there on Tuesday. I think they may see more of these types of problems, and am hoping that after getting both opinions we can make the best decision for him.

I'm not especially worried about the ED at this point. I don't think it's what's causing the pain, but I am wondering if we should do something early on to try and prevent it from getting worse?? I do also have to try to keep the expenses in mind.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm glad you are getting some solid information, though I know it's not the best news. Now you can make a plan for treatment and get him feeling better. Sending lots of good thoughts!


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I appreciate you updating us, I've been thinking about you. I am glad that they are at least able to put a name on a diagnosis and you're getting some clues to what Moe may be facing. I can barely imagine how hard it is going to be to try to balance all the unknowns vs. quality of life both short term and long term vs. financial burden. YOu're so wise to get the consult in Maryland, I know people who have traveled from my area for treatment there because they are so good. I wish I could wave a magic wand and solve all of it for you. Please know I continue to pray for your strength.


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## Neeko13 (Jul 10, 2010)

I have nothing but prayers and good thoughts for you and your pup...such a shame at such an early age to be worrying about his bones....


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## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

So sorry! Terrible to get such devastating news on one so young. Prayers that a good solution will be found to give him a relatively pain free life as a loving pet. Thank you for doing so much to try and make him comfortable. Have peace with whatever you decide to do.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

did they give you a grade on the ED..... elbow dysplasia can be VERY painful so I wouldn't rule that out as being a problem when you are trying to figure out where the pain is coming from.... also keep in mind that while gabapentin can be good for pain it can also make a dog unsteady on his feet and a bit loopy and uncoordinated so keep an eye out for that. 

I do hope that you have the support of your breeder. If you have not contacted them you should. If you have gone to a reputable breeder they should be able to assist you. Sometimes even when you do everything right things can happen. It absolutely stinks (I would use other words but the computer here will just block them anyway) and having something like this happen is honestly a breeders worst nightmare. 

I wish you the best of luck with your boy, it sounds like he is lucky to have you.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

I have much better news today. I have to say that the people on this forum are terrific, and knowledgeable.

Today we went to see Dr. Matt Brunke at Veterinary Orthopedic Sports Medicine (VOSM) in Annapolis Juction, Maryland. What a different experience!! We had all X-rays, CT Scans, and the 3D images of his feet forwarded for review before we ever went. He thoroughly examined Moe and he thinks our problem is mainly the elbows. Moe does have fragmented sesamoid bones in the 2nd and 5th digit, but he doesn't believe that's the source of our problem. We most likely need arthroscopic bi-lateral elbow surgery, but we aren't going to do it just yet. He would like us to follow a strict exercise program, not crate rest, and keep a daily video log on Moe for the next six weeks. We are discontinuing the Gabapentin, because as mentioned above it can cause some of the symptoms we have noticed. I was really questioning NCL. They had Moe run on a floor with computer sensors in it that tracked his weight distribution at a walk, and a run. They did so many tests all I can say is WOW! He wants to hold off on the surgery to give Moe a little more time to mature. Moe has coronoid process issues, but there are no fragments. His fear is that if we go in right away and fix one thing we could end up with fragmentation later on. He would like to wait until around the 1 year of age mark. He's also using this time to see how much of the pain Moe is feeling is related to the sesamoid bones, if any. If there is pain in the toes he would inject the individual toes. We are fortunate that the 2nd and 5th digit are not weight bearing. He consulted with another surgeon and they both agreed exactly on our plan. Wait for now and watch to learn. Then arthroscopic surgery, stem cells, HA injections, and possibly inject the toes. 

I also received a review from Dr. Cross in Atlanta last night and his plan was the exact same.

I've been in contact with our breeder and he has offered me a replacement puppy as per our contract. I do know that these things just happen, I'm not blaming anyone. It is just devastating when it happens to you. We like to think we do everything right so that we don't go through the heartbreak of having to make tough decisions. I'm just so glad I found the right Drs and I can afford to help our guy out. I'm not sure what we will do about another puppy. My husband was really looking forward to competing with Moe. Moe will never make it in field trials, that was confirmed today. He may be able to be hunt trained and just hunt with my husband on a low key level. I'm not sure and it's not really our primary concern. We retired our older Golden from hunting and we finally had enough time on our hands that my husband was really looking forward to seeing how far he and this little guy could go. Maybe we will pursue the other puppy, but for us they are pets as well and I'm not sure I'm up for 3 Golden's again. We've done it once before. I think our breeder is pulling one of the dogs from his breeding program since I'm not the only one that has had issues with this litter.

I was truly devastated when I went to Univ of Penn the last few weeks. I just wasn't getting anything positive, or even a solid answer. The prices I paid for the tests and was quoted on the multiple surgeries was also just crazy to me. This case just shows that you have to keep trying sometimes. I am sure glad I didn't just rush into the foot surgery. I know that ED is no fun, but I feel like with the surgery we can manage a good pet life if nothing else. Dr. Brunke today recommended he compete in obedience, or even try and get him certified as a CD or try for a VCD. I know nothing about those things but it was nice that he recognized the work we've put in with him and wanted to give us another avenue to pursue.

I have to say that I reached out to a few owners of litter mates and they have been an amazing source of information. One of them runs Adopt a Golden Atlanta, and the other is friends with her. I don't want to put their names out there, but some of you may know them. I also have to thank Robin at Prism Goldens, she has helped a lot. This Golden community is pretty amazing.

I will keep everyone updated along the way. I have done so much research looking for information on sesamoid bones causing problems like I had. I just don't think they do.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I'm so glad the news is better. I am a firm believer in seeking out the best medical or veterinary care you can find when everyday doctors or vets are unclear about what is going on. I also always appreciate a wait and be sure attitude in treatment plans rather than rushing into surgery when it is an option. Moe has the best kind of dog "parents"


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

So it's been a few weeks since I updated. We have been following a very precise rehab program given to us by the Orthopedist at VOSM, and I have to say we are seeing improvement. I'm not confident that we will avoid surgery, but I definitely feel better. We are working really hard at it and hoping that maybe we can start with water work in the spring. The ortho didn't completely rule out hunt training, but we will take it a step at a time. We go back at the end of March and are currently sending weekly video updates. We will see how happy they are with our progress. The best news for us is that his feet are not sore, or don't seem to be. Hopefully they've heeled and we are only worrying about elbows.

I can also breathe a huge sigh of relief today. We got our entire DNA panel back and I'm very happy to say we are CLEAR on everything except for Ichthyosis, which I already figured, and can handle. His is really not noticeable. We were really worried about putting him through all of this and then finding out something else was wrong. One of the puppies from his litter has a serious genetic disease so we've sort of been holding our breath a little.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Great to hear you are seeing improvements with your boy. 
I hope he continues to do well.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Thank you for the update and so happy to hear the feet are better and without pain. I hope live continues to improve for you pup!


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## Betsy (Jan 12, 2011)

So happy you are seeing improvement. Thanks so much for the update! Continued good wishes & healing energy?


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## KKaren (Oct 29, 2014)

Thank you for posting an update, it's really good to hear a recovery plan with exercise and also video review... I hope things continue to improve and be positive.

" He would like us to follow a strict exercise program, not crate rest, and keep a daily video log on Moe for the next six weeks."


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Update Time....

So he is improving!! We are up to 4 - 40 minute walks a day on leash at a fairly quick pace, 2 - 15 minute free play sessions, and all our various up and down exercises. The exercise program the rehab specialist came up with is pretty extensive. I think I'm getting back in shape along with him. The hardest part is trying to fit it all in during the day. He has had absolutely no limp for several weeks!! 

We go back to VOSM in two weeks and we will find out if we can resume any other activities. We are still hoping to at least finish our hunt training. We know field trials are out, the distance would be to much, but I'm fairly optimistic that everything we are doing is paying off. The Ortho and Rehb Specialist told us that they would make a determination when we came back as to if he would be able to continue training or just be our pet. He's a little high strung to be a couch potato.

I can't wait til we can start swimming and doing some water work. 

We were in such a different place a month ago. I'm so glad we kept after the diagnosis and tried the rehab program instead of jumping right to surgery. I'm not sure how much of it is the supplements but the entire program seems to have him back on his feet.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Wonderful to hear how great he's doing.


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## Betsy (Jan 12, 2011)

Thanks so much for the update. So very, very happy for you!


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

*Update*

So today was our long awaited follow up visit at VOSM with Dr. Brunke. Moe passed every test with flying colors!! We are so happy. They want us to return him to full activity, including some field training, at home for 30 days. If all goes well they think he can go back into full training. I can't tell you how big of a relief this is. It's not about the field work, he's a pet first, it's just about feeling like he's healthy and can live a normal life.

Four months ago we were scratching our heads as to what was wrong. The awful day the trainer called and said he was limping when our vet thought it was a soft tissue injury, then we thought Pano, then we went to a local specialist.... Then we had the weeks at U Penn finding out he had genetic sesamoid bone malformations, and the ultimate blow of elbow issues. Penn was not sure about the success of surgery on his feet and we really spent a week or two thinking the worst and trying to come to terms with if we could afford to go through surgeries on both feet and elbows, as well as quality of life issues. Then we found VOSM. They have been a game changer for us. I would travel from anywhere to have them treat my dog.

Everything looked so good today that we are going to continue to follow with them, but if all remains well for the next 12 months we will do Penn Hips, new Elbow X-rays, and new scans of the feet when he reaches two years old. They believe he may pass on all accounts, even the elbows. His elbows where done via CT Scan and he wasn't fully developed at the time so there is a chance that they could be normal with full development. The bones in his feet are what they are, they will never heal. They are no longer painful though.

I will never allow Moe to be used for breeding. There have just been to many tears shed. I've really watched him have to much pain, no puppy should be in pain. I do have every intention of having all testing completed so that I know exactly what we are dealing with in the future, and as he ages. I've already submitted complete DNA tests to OFA and done a K-9 Data page. I would never want anyone else to go through this. I know people will, but I feel like I've tried to do my best.

This little guy just loves to train and has so much natural instinct that it was heart breaking to think he wouldn't be able to pursue any of it. We also asked if it would be better for him to just be a pet with limited activity and they said no. They watched him work in the facility they have set up and said they wouldn't rule out anything for his future. 

So they say that everything happens for a reason. This has taught me so much. The most important lesson is to keep searching until you find the right answer for you. You can't just take the first opinion offered, or the 2nd, 3rd... I have a very close relationship with our personal vet, but from now on when I have any issue that a specialist would be better suited to handle I will not wait it out. I will be asking for a referral to the specialist immediately. I know that Univ of Penn is a good vet hospital, but I think it depends on what your problem is. This is a very rare problem and they clearly didn't know what to do. We needed a practice dedicated solely to orthopedics in working/sporting dogs. 

We have been submitting videos for review as he has progressed and Dr. Brunke asked if we would continue so they can use Moe's case as an ad, or to show people with similar issues.

I also need to thank the Golden community. I reached out to people trying to find some answers when this was at it's worst and I can say I was humbled by the people willing to help. I will forever be grateful.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

HOORAY!!!!!!! What an absolute joy to see that this has turned out better than I ever imagined it could. I honestly thought at your first post that he wasn't going to have any option other than euthanization. My hat is off to you for working so hard and leaving no stone unturned to find a way to get through this and give him good quality of life. Celebration in order 

I am not surprised that you found such a helpful reception from the Golden community when you reached out, a lot of good hearted people who just want to help. I've noticed it time after time when there is a problem that needs researched and resolved. 

THank you so much for sharing what you've been through and for sharing the lessons you've learned. Be aware that what you've learned with your experience with your boy and veterinary medicine also applies to people. Your family member has no better advocate than you and no matter how wonderful your doctor is, sometimes it's not enough and you have to find the right specialist and you can't take no for an answer. I admire your tenacity so much. I hope you'll continue to update this thread so we can hear how he is doing and what kind of 'job' you are able to figure out for him. I am confident you will figure something out that will work somehow. I'm so happy for you


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## Betsy (Jan 12, 2011)

So incredibly happy for you!! WAHOO!! Your pup is gorgeous!?


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

:smile2::smile2::smile2::laugh:


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Awesome news! Glad everything worked out and your pup gets to do what I'm she he loves most, getting out and running. Golden's need to be able to run imo to truly be the healthiest mentally. It's just part of their personality. And for him to be pain free is the best you could've hoped for!


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Moe has been doing great for months. We had planned on taking him to his first Dock Diving experience last Sunday, but he started to limp again on Saturday. We sent videos to our Rehab Vet and the Ortho Surgeon. We are thinking it's his feet again. We are taking him back to VOSM tomorrow morning. They are going to sedate him and look at his feet and elbows again. We are also going to go ahead and have Penn Hips done at the same time. 

He's still happy playful Moe. I just hate seeing him limp. I know we are going to the right place. I just hope we find the right answer. This little guy has been through so much in 13 months.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Thanks for the update. Praying they figure it out soon and maybe something simple this time!


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

Poor guy  Sending all my good thoughts that they figure it out soon!


Also, I'm in Delaware too! There aren't many of us on the forum. I'm not sure how far you are from Philly, but there's an animal gym there that focuses on rehab, pain management, and fitness. WAG: Whole Animal Gym I have never personally been here or used them, but one of the vets who works there teaches agility class at my training place. She's mainly interested in fitness and rehab of canine athletes.


I have no idea if you would have any use for the services that they offer, but thought I'd mention them just in case.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Thank you! It’s great to know there’s someone else in Delaware!! I’m in the middle of the state. I took Moe to U Penn first and didn’t have any luck, so we went to Maryland to VOSM. Thanks for the info. I’m willing to take him anywhere if it will help him long term.

Where do you train for agility? I just found a place in Newark that looked good. I’m not sure what Moe is going to be able to do. Hopefully I will know more tomorrow. 

I wish we had more stuff in Delaware!!


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

If you'd like, I could text the vet I know and ask if she (or anyone she works with) could help your boy or have any experience with something similar. I know they offer hydrotherapy, which could help keep your boy's joints "well oiled" without putting too much strain on them. Sending all my positive thoughts for you and your boy tomorrow. I understand the frustration of vets literally having no idea what's wrong with your dog. It's truly a testament to your character that you kept looking and pushing to find an answer.

Academy of Dog Training & Agility is where I train - full disclosure, I also help teach the basic obedience/puppy classes (taking classes longer than I have been helping though). There is another agility place in Elkton, MD that I've heard good things about too. I haven't personally gone there, but a lot of the people I train with also take classes there (full disclosure pt 2: my place refers clients there and they refer clients to us). They just do agility, so they have a lot more specific agility-related classes than my place.

There actually is a surprising amount of dog things to do in/around Delaware! Definitely more than I thought there was when I first got my dog. It's just not very well advertised. Off the top of my head, I know there's a barn hunt club in the Brandywine area and a tracking club (?) in the Elkton/Fairhill area. There are rally classes too, if you're interested in that. I know of a few retriever clubs in the area (they're more midstate). I also know of a couple generally safe lakes/ponds/rivers for dogs to swim, and a dog pool that is open year round. Nosework might be something to look into for Moe too. Not very physically taxing, but fantastic mental stimulation! I have friends who do nosework, if you're interested, I could get you some information on where or how to start (and that goes with anything I mentioned).


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

aesthetic said:


> If you'd like, I could text the vet I know and ask if she (or anyone she works with) could help your boy or have any experience with something similar. I know they offer hydrotherapy, which could help keep your boy's joints "well oiled" without putting too much strain on them. Sending all my positive thoughts for you and your boy tomorrow. I understand the frustration of vets literally having no idea what's wrong with your dog. It's truly a testament to your character that you kept looking and pushing to find an answer.
> 
> Academy of Dog Training & Agility is where I train - full disclosure, I also help teach the basic obedience/puppy classes (taking classes longer than I have been helping though). There is another agility place in Elkton, MD that I've heard good things about too. I haven't personally gone there, but a lot of the people I train with also take classes there (full disclosure pt 2: my place refers clients there and they refer clients to us). They just do agility, so they have a lot more specific agility-related classes than my place.
> 
> There actually is a surprising amount of dog things to do in/around Delaware! Definitely more than I thought there was when I first got my dog. It's just not very well advertised. Off the top of my head, I know there's a barn hunt club in the Brandywine area and a tracking club (?) in the Elkton/Fairhill area. There are rally classes too, if you're interested in that. I know of a few retriever clubs in the area (they're more midstate). I also know of a couple generally safe lakes/ponds/rivers for dogs to swim, and a dog pool that is open year round. Nosework might be something to look into for Moe too. Not very physically taxing, but fantastic mental stimulation! I have friends who do nosework, if you're interested, I could get you some information on where or how to start (and that goes with anything I mentioned).


I've actually been looking at the Academy. We normally hunt train our dogs. We have had a private trainer do all of our dogs in the past, and he started Moe. We've just recently started working with a different trainer based in TN and I LOVE her training methods!! We have branched out more with Moe's training due to his issues and I've been looking into other options for him.  He's field bred and definitely isn't right for conformation, but we looked into dock diving for fun. I've been really interested in agility for a while. 

I'm going to sort of have to let his medical issues dictate what he can do. I should at the very least get his CGC and other stuff I guess. We've had all we can handle with training him and health issues to be honest. He's super smart and easy to train, but high energy...

Maybe I could start by bringing him to one of the obedience classes. I'm not sure where he would fit in though. He's had quite a bit of training but is all been geared toward hunt and field until recently.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Update...

We just got back from VOSM. So we did another thorough exam. We decided not to do hips today, too many other things to look at and we are clearly going to be going back. We will address those next time he has to be sedated for another look at his elbows and feet.

The good news is his little feet are healed and seem to be fine. He's gained 2 cm of muscle mass symmetrically on all four limbs. His weight is perfect at 60 lbs. He's probably thin to some, but we want him that way.

The bad news is the limp seems to be coming from pain in the left elbow. The scans show that the elbow problems aren't severe. All the Drs classified them as mild, but agreed that many times they need to go in with a scope to see everything in a case like Moe's. We met with everyone and agreed to hold off with doing stem cells or HA injections at this time. Moe has been fine for several months and today was pretty good. The limp is going back away with no meds. We decided that if it stays this way we could use pain meds as needed and give him some more time to develop.

Their fear is that if we do the injections now and then the heads fragment we will still be faced with having to perform a surgery. He doesn't have FCP, he just has blunt heads on both elbows, but is only symptomatic in the left. I don't want to put him through anything until I have to. I also don't want to just waste money. 

As far as training goes they said it is doing him good. They were really impressed with the muscle growth and found him to be in much better condition then when we were resting him. We keep going back and forth about what to do with him. We are working with a new trainer that we both really love. We are really diversifying his training a little. It seems like every time we get ready to really commit to something he starts to limp though.....


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

I can PM you if you’d like. I don’t want to overthrow your thread


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Please PM me.


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## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

Could the breeder put you in contact with any of the older litter pups that might have similar issues and possibly have found help for them? Seems this is a repeat breeding, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2017 and 2018. With five repeated breedings is this fifth repeat the first time this issue has surfaced? This info is on k-9Data.com. Hopefully your pup will still be able to lead a somewhat pain free life. So sorry this happened to your pup.


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## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

Website also shows plans for a 2019 repeat of this breeding. So maybe your pup was the only one to have these issues in 5 breedings. Not sure if six repeat breedings is done routinely by breeders? I know some breeders I have talked to don’t repeat breedings. Since I’m not a breeder I don’t know the pros and cons of repeating that many times.


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## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

Is his littermate Flip/Max the pup with dwarfism? I wonder what cases a breeding to suddenly start having issues, if in the past litters were normal? Seems there’s so much out there in goldens that is still unknown, even with all the genetic testing. It’s sad. Scares me every time I’m looking for a pup. Seems to be often just a roll of the dice. There are already so many tests, but still so many unknowns. Lots’s of great dogs back in those pedigrees. Dogs that are also behind my dogs, past and present.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

StarBright said:


> Could the breeder put you in contact with any of the older litter pups that might have similar issues and possibly have found help for them? Seems this is a repeat breeding, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2017 and 2018. With five repeated breeding's is this fifth repeat the first time this issue has surfaced? This info is on k-9Data.com. Hopefully your pup will still be able to lead a somewhat pain free life. So sorry this happened to your pup.


I contacted the breeder immediately when I started having issues and really didn't get much of a response. Basically "they had never had a problem". I then started investigating on my own and found Maxwell Strong, the dwarf puppy, through one post on the breeders Facebook Page. I contacted his foster family and was able to get some information, but it wasn't really what I needed. I then went through the Facebook posts and found all of the other people that got puppies out of that litter. I ended up talking fairly regularly with Maxwell's foster and two of the other owners. They are all great people and I felt like I at least made them aware of our issues.

After I took Moe to Univ of Penn and found out they felt it was feet and elbows I called the breeder back. The last conversation we had was him suggesting I put Moe to sleep. I will say that Univ of Penn's diagnosis was sort of bleak, and very expensive. My husband and I just couldn't fathom the idea of putting a happy 8 month old to sleep. I e-mailed him results from the CT Scans and 3D renderings of the feet that UPenn did. I got no response. I wasn't asking for anything more then guidance, or knowledge, if someone else had gained any. 

I asked the breeder to contact all of the people with puppies and try to see if anyone else was having problems. I had heard that one of the puppies went to an agility home in the Mid West and in fact had sesamoid issues. I could never reach them. He did call me back and said he checked with all the other puppy buyers and there were no problems. I asked the two others that I spoke to regularly if he had contacted them. They never received a call from him, and even now he doesn't respond when they send pictures with updates of their puppies. 

When I asked the breeder about Maxwell he just referred to him as the small puppy. I never saw Maxwell. My puppy was picked for me as a field puppy. 

One of the other owners that I did talk to has many resources in the Golden world and was able to send my scans to several vets that she uses. She also had prelims done on her dog and had him neutered. His prelims at 1 year were okay. I am also in contact with the owner of a female from the litter and she has been neutered. They are very responsible Golden lovers and didn't want to take any chances.

I think that if Moe would have not been in training we may not have found his issues so quickly. All of the other puppies from the litter, with the exception of the one I can't track down, were just going to pet homes.

Robin @Prism was a big help to me. She helped me a ton through the worst of this. I did a complete DNA panel on Moe through Embark and everything came back clear except ICT. I was really starting to worry about NCL, thank goodness he's clear.

We were all told that these puppies were the last breeding. I saw a post pop up on Facebook that they had plans for a repeat breeding in 2019 at the time I was going through the worst of it with Moe. I never spoke to them, but I know the documents I sent them from our vets, as well as the director of the rescue that has Maxwell, informed them they should not do another repeat breeding. They did do a breeding this year, but it wasn't a repeat of this one. They used the same male, but a different female. The other good thing I will say is that they did the NCL testing on the dogs they still have in their breeding program.

All of the above being said, I don't blame anyone. I have come to the realization that puppies are living, breathing things, and sometimes stuff just happens. With all the clearances in place 12% of dogs will still develop dysplasia. According to my contract I could get a replacement puppy, but I don't want one. In my opinion I would be rolling the dice and it's not something I'm willing to do. I love Moe. It's been heartbreaking at times, and I wish he was the healthy puppy that I didn't have to worry about. I worry every time we do anything with him. It's been hard on us because we had big plans for him. We are still trying to train him, and find the right balance between training and not causing him any problems. He's been cleared to perform, not in field trials, but hunt tests or other less demanding disciplines. 

This weekend we took him dock diving for the first time and I held my breath waiting for him to limp, he didn't. I'm hoping that he will be able to live a normal life and that maybe we can do something with him. He is super smart, and has the sweetest disposition of any Golden I've ever had. He is a little timid and I think it's from our trainer not knowing there was something wrong and working him when he shouldn't have. It could also be that he has truly been babied. lol

I've learned SO MUCH through this process.....


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## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

You’ve certainly done a ton of research and work to get the best for your pup. He’s a lucky boy. And hopefully will have a great life with you, still active. You’re right about breedings, we got a girl with Hip Dysplasia years back and all behind her had clearances. She was still able to lead a full and active life, till just short of 15 years old. We took certain precautions so she wouldn’t hurt herself, she was very high energy. But other than agility, which she mostly only did at home, she still competed in hunt tests and obedience. She was 14 when I took this picture of her doing agility in the backyard.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

StarBright said:


> You’ve certainly done a ton of research and work to get the best for your pup. He’s a lucky boy. And hopefully will have a great life with you, still active. You’re right about breedings, we got a girl with Hip Dysplasia years back and all behind her had clearances. She was still able to lead a full and active life, till just short of 15 years old. We took certain precautions so she wouldn’t hurt herself, she was very high energy. But other than agility, which she mostly only did at home, she still competed in hunt tests and obedience. She was 14 when I took this picture of her doing agility in the backyard.


Thanks so much for the photo and information. It helps to know she had an active healthy life until 15. That's what I worry most about. If you find these issues so young what does the future look like? I'm trying to find the balance between training and not making anything worse later in life.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

*UPDATE*

Moe turned 2 on Friday and I had his x-rays scheduled for hips/elbows today. Even with all the crazy stuff going on in the world our vet called me this morning and said bring him in. He wanted to see as bad as I did. All indications are that he should receive good scores for elbows and hips. There is one small spot on the Right elbow that our vet pointed out to us, but he said if he wasn't looking so hard because of Moe's history he would have never pointed it out. I would post pictures but I didn't get copies since we weren't allowed in the clinic. To be clear our vet was shocked!! Moe's chart is already marked dysplastic and he said he thinks he's going to have to change it. Maybe all our prayers have been answered? I checked the box to release results no matter what they say. I am eager to get the official results back but I was literally holding my breath when our vet came out to the car. I was sure he was going to tell me the elbows were awful. Our ortho vet that worked on his feet was never positive of the CT Scan from U of Penn about the elbows. He thought it could be a developmental delay. 

The feet are healed. The x-rays of the feet are not normal, but they never will be. He is asymptomatic so we will proceed with a normal life.

Moe is training daily for hunt and doing really well. He will be back to doing water work soon. If anyone can learn anything from our story I will be thrilled. We are working with a new trainer that has had great success with dogs that do not respond to pressure. We will wait and see what the final OFA results are but to say we are both relieved is an understatement. 

I'm a little confused as to what I do with his K9Data page if he passes OFA's? I will certainly list his results, but I still feel the feet need to be documented. According to my contract if he passes OFA's and is titled I should get full registration but I don't think it's worth contacting the breeder. I would think he'd be happy that Moe is in the shape he's in but I'm afraid that's not how the phone call would go. I will never breed Moe and I can't think of any other reason to worry about the registration being limited.

FWIW - I had asked earlier what the typical price for OFA's was because our ortho clinic was around $1200. Our vet did them for me for $500 since he's been working with Moe from the beginning. I think he was as anxious to get a look as we were.


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

If he doesn't end up dysplastic per OFA (which would be great and I'm thrilled for you that that's a possibility for him!), you can list his foot issue in the "miscellaneous" box on k9data. That's where I listed Kaizer's environmental allergies (which is a totally different issue, but same idea - people should know).

Here's a link to Kaizer's k9data page: Pedigree: Kalm Sea's Penguin March CGC TKN so you can see.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

UPDATE

Today I got the best news... Moe received a NORMAL elbow rating from OFA and a GOOD Hip rating. I updated his K9Data page but left the genetic sesamoid disease noted in the comments. It's funny how the official results make you feel better.

I would have never thought this possible 18 months ago. I will eternally be skeptical of Univ of Penn Ortho. I just can't understand how they were so far off of every other recommendation we received for him.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Glad to hear that you got good news!


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> UPDATE
> 
> Today I got the best news... Moe received a NORMAL elbow rating from OFA and a GOOD Hip rating. I updated his K9Data page but left the genetic sesamoid disease noted in the comments. It's funny how the official results make you feel better.
> 
> I would have never thought this possible 18 months ago. I will eternally be skeptical of Univ of Penn Ortho. I just can't understand how they were so far off of every other recommendation we received for him.


Outstanding, great news!


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Just to update the thread for anyone that may have this issue in the future....

Moe will be 4 years old at the end of the month. He is an amazing, athletic, high drive boy. He's also pretty cute. He earned his dock diving titles, his Junior Hunter, we got him through Senior Hunter with no injuries. 
We started really training for Master Hunter and started seeing some issues. He can't make really tight turns to the left (weight bearing on the outside foot, the right). We can work through that with training and handling. We kept training, he knows everything he needs to know for MH. We started to run a Master test last year at the end of the season and Moe started limping on his right front foot. We thought it was a carpus injury. We did rehab, water treadmill, cold laser, and he got better with time. We started training again and all seemed good.

We went to a training day about 6 weeks ago and Moe ran an excellent Master setup. We put him away to run Cruz and when we got Moe back out he wouldn't put weight on his front right foot. We had x-rays and they showed nothing new. It took several weeks of rest for him to completely get rid of the limp. We thought he was better and let him off leash in the yard and he came in limping again. We rested for a few more weeks and made an appointment with a new Ortho Specialist that happens to come from a family that runs field trials and hunt tests with field bred goldens. (Yay!! Great find) 

Today was that appointment and with all the testing done, and everything reviewed from the past, unfortunately Moes hunt test days are over. He may be able to run some as a test dog, or a pick up dog. I may still do his WC/WCX. Training for Master and running the series is just too much. It is unfortunately the sesamoid disease in the right foot causing the problem. There are surgical options, but the vet thinks they should be a last resort. Our thought is that if he can train at home with reasonable limits, maybe hunt a little, and live a good life we should just be grateful. The specialists agree it's best for him not to train at that level anymore. It's a little sad, but my goodness from the beginning I never thought we would get this far.

These dogs teach us so much as owners! He could care less if he runs tests, but he has to be able to play the game when it's safe for him. He loves it!


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