# Food advice?



## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

I posted this in the "Polls" section, but I am also posting it here, in hopes of getting some answers!

Right now I am feeding my 9-month old Purina One Total Nutrition, Lamb & Rice formula. I am really confused by the whole food thing. I have been reading labels, and Purina One lists lamb as the first ingredient, and it is 26% protein. I was feeding Diamond Large Breed Puppy, but I live in a small town, and it is quite a drive to get any specialty food not carried at the grocery store or WalMart. So I switched Purina One, because it seems to be of equal quality as the specialty foods, without the long drive. 

I would not mind driving to get food, if it really was better quality than Purina One, or the others carried at the grocery store. It is just that if they are equal, then I'd rather not drive. So if anyone has any advice, please let me know! Like I said, the whole thing confuses me!


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## timberwolfe (Apr 15, 2005)

The ingredients in Purina One are quite scarey actually. From # 4 on, you get Corn, By Product meal, more corn, then look at #10. Animal digest. Animal digest is a cooked-down broth made from unspecified parts of unspecified animals. Any kind of animal can be included: goats, pigs, horses, rats, etc. The animals can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or contamination. 

I would drive to get better.

Ingredient Purina One

1.	Lamb
2.	Brewer's Rice
3.	Oatmeal/Rolled Oats
4.	Corn Gluten Meal
5.	Poultry By-Product Meal
6.	Ground Corn
7.	Animal Fat
8.	Calcium Carbonate
9.	Dicalcium Phosphate
10.	Animal Digest
11.	Barley Flour
12.	Salt
13.	Brewer's Dried Yeast
14.	Vitamins/Minerals


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## janb (Apr 27, 2005)

Hey Timberwolf!!! What do you feed yours??? I too am a little confused. I am planning on switching from Eukanuba LBP to Solid Gold Wolf Cub because of my concerns. I know it's costly, but my pup has been biting at her feet and tail, and I read this could be food allergies and a better food would help. Even the Eukanuba has corn as the #2 ingredient. Somewhere I remember seeing a link to a site with a comparison chart but I can't remember where. The guy at the feed store gave me a whole bunch of free samples to see how she does with gradually changing over. She seems to really like it as I have given some as treats, and now am putting a small amount in with her food.Also I never knew about animal digest. Thanks!!


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## timberwolfe (Apr 15, 2005)

We feed this food now:

By Nature Pet Food 

We used to feed Eagle Pack Holistic which I also really liked but couldn't get anymore except in a store that sells animals so I don't buy from them.

Here is the comparison link:


Dog Food Comparison


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I really don't believe there is anything wrong with using corn as an ingredient in dog food.

Dogs are omnivores which means they can digest and utilize food sources other than meat... however their teeth layout and digestive tract (short length and very strong digestive acids) suggest carnivore. So probably the best protein food source is meat and eggs... these are complete protein sources that are easy for a dog to digest (conversely its much harder for human digestion).

Dogs can also get protein from grains... however these sources (other than soy beans) are incomplete... meaning they only supply a very limited range of protein types (not enough to sustain life)... proteins often need each other in specific proportions to be utilized properly in the body. So several grains are usually necessary to complete the protein profile... a good example is the New Orleans dish "Red Beans and Rice". However grains also serve another purpose when added to kibble-types of dog food and biscuits... it allows the mixture to be extruded and hold its shape... that's the gluten, be it from rice, wheat, corn, sorghum, oats, etc. In fact, I believe I read somewhere that that's the reason why a kibble dog food can never be more than 40% meat derived. And keep in mind when reading a dog food label that even though the ingredients are listed in order of the quantity of it used in the food... this is done by WEIGHT which includes the water content BEFORE processing. So even though meat is number one on the list, after the water has been remove (as during processing) it actually comprises a very small portion of the dog food... since meat contains way more water than grains do. 

For breeds and individual dogs that are prone to food allergies... you should select a complete dog food with the fewest protein sources. In order for any animal (humans included) to become allergic to a protein, it must have had at least one previous exposure to that protein. Therefore by limiting the exposure to other sources of protein if your dog does develop an allergy to a certain protein source you can now find a "hypo-allergenic" food more easily, which is merely a dog food which uses a protein source your dog has never been exposed to. There is nothing magical about 'lamb and rice' or 'duck and potato' or 'rabbit and sweet potato'... the only 'magic' thing is the protein sources are so unusual that the odds are good that your dog has not had previous exposure to them and therefore will 'cure' the allergic responses... FOR NOW! Your dog could just as well later develop an allergic response to those protein sources as well... then you'll be home cooking 'venison and couscous', etc. 

There is nothing wrong with corn per se, except that its in everything... treats, dog biscuits at the drive up windows, tid-bits fed from or under the table, food droppings at picnics and in the park, etc... Its the number one food ingredient in the American and Canadian human diets. Therefore if your dog is prone to developing a food sensitivity reaction to something, there's a very good chance (statistically) it will be to corn or wheat. That's the source of the bad rap on corn and wheat. 

If you own a dog or breed of dog that is allergy prone I would suggest picking a food that uses a relatively small number of protein sources and only feed treats with the same ingredients (usually that's easy if you purchase one from the same brand manufacturer's line)... and stick with that dog food because food allergies often develop when a dog gets older (often 4 or 5 years of age or older) and then you will want some options available.


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

Wow, thanks for all the info. Although I like the suggestion of venison and couscous  , do you guys have any other foods to suggest? Keep in mind that I am pretty much limited to the grocery store, WalMart, Petco, and the local feed store, which carries Diamond brand dog foods.


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## timberwolfe (Apr 15, 2005)

What Monomer said is informative and correct, however I would like to clarify 2 points. The reason I stay away from corn is that so many Goldens have allergies to it, and grains. Many dogs will have no problem with it. 

You mention meat and then processing removing water. This is correct when refering to Just Chicken, or Beef, but if it says Chicken Meal, or Beef meal, then it is already processed before being added to the food and therefore is the main ingredient.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Good one Timberwolfe...

MegB... If money is no object, you might want to try Nutro's Natural Choice Ultra line. That's what we feed Sidney... we mix the can with some of the kibble and sometimes I'll add a little extra thing like: a raw egg, a small can of tuna, boiled chicken liver or gizzards or hearts, sardines in olive oil, canned salmon or mackerel... I try to stick with either fish or chicken proteins for the 'add-ins'. And he gets about a half teaspoon of sunflower oil and two 'shots' of salmon oil once a day. If you want something slightly less expensive there's Nutro's Natural Choice for Large Breed dogs. I know Petco carries the whole Nutro line of dog foods and treats... oh yeah, we also get the 'matching' Ultra treats. These are merely suggestions, there are a lot of good dog foods available just at Petco. Personally I would stay away from Wal-Mart and the local grocery store stuff.

EDIT: You can read more about Nutro's Ultra Adult dog food here http://www.nutroproducts.com/ncuad.asp


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

I'm going to look into it. Thanks a lot guys!


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## Boogity (Apr 23, 2005)

I just sat here and re-read this thread a second time (I had read it a couple weeks ago,too). I would have to agree with monomer on the anti-corn craze that seems to be so prevalent in the doggy world today.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH CORN? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING :no: !

Just yesterday I was in Petsmart looking through their aisles of dog food and overheard a conversation between tow customers. Obviously they were looking at the ingredients on the packages. One said out loud "Uck! This package lists corn as the second ingredient. I wouldn't dream of feeding this stuff to my Fo-Fo (or something like that)."

The guy with the Chow dog replied "Oh, I've heard that the corn will give dogs worms, too".

This is a bunch of po-po :curtain: . Somehow we dog owners have been lead down the path to very expensive dog food that is not much different than the old stuff that millions of healthy dog have eaten for decades.

How many of you folks have said "I would never eat anything with corn in it"? Corn is good food. And it is usually listed as the third or second ingredient so there must be more of something else in there, too.

Our puppies are growing up on 1 cup IAMS LB puppy food per day. This is supplemented with 1 cup of ground chuck (sometimes raw and sometimes cooked), or salmon, or tuna and a shot olive oil & garlic. Our dogs get table scraps (carefully selected) mixed in with their dry food. We have raised and maintained 5 dogs over the past 30 years on this kind of diet. We have never had one trace of allergies. Our dogs have been very trim and very healthy and their coats have been beautiful.

We must be doing something right.

In my opinion there is entirely too much hype out there about what to feed fido. To me, lots of exercise, strict weight control, good living conditions, and lots of love are ten thousand times more important than if that silly bag of dog food contains 26.95739253% corn. Corn is our friend.
Here's a little tip for those of you who are concerned about puppy not eating the food you selected. Get into the habit of saving a tiny amount of the grease or juices from your fried chicken, steak, hamburger, green beans with ham, your cooked corn (Oh! Wash my mouth out with soap! :yuck: I said that bad word), anything that has some liquid in it. Leftover veggies are also very good. Put it in a small jar with tight sealing lid in the refrigerator. When you fill fido's food bowl splash about one tablespoon of your magic liquid on top. Either cold or you can zap it for 20 sec. if you want it warm. I can't imagine why you would want it warm. My wife does this, not me.

Relax and quit worrying about all this Holistic (whatever that is) stuff. Maybe all of your worrying is giving your dog hot spots :doh: .


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## timberwolfe (Apr 15, 2005)

WHAT'S WRONG WITH CORN? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING :no: !

Actually corn is considered highly allergenic. Many Goldens just happen to be very sensitive to corn and grains.

Somehow we dog owners have been lead down the path to very expensive dog food that is not much different than the old stuff that millions of healthy dog have eaten for decades.

Compare the ingredients of a quality kibble and a grocery store brand. There is a huge difference.

How many of you folks have said "I would never eat anything with corn in it"? Corn is good food. And it is usually listed as the third or second ingredient so there must be more of something else in there, too.


Yes, it is inexpensive 


Relax and quit worrying about all this Holistic (whatever that is) stuff. Maybe all of your worrying is giving your dog hot spots :doh: .

While I do believe that some people go overboard with holistic foods worrying about ingredients, there are a lot of bad foods out there. A lot of those cheaper foods use cheap meats, you don't want to know where they get their meat. And it is these cheap foods that can cause hot spots, allergies, dry skin and poor coat condition.

So while corn may be OK for a majority of dogs, the cheaper foods in my opinion aren't the best choice you could make for your pet.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Judging by the last couple of postings I don't believe everything I said was completely understood. Please let me try to better explain the point I was trying to make in my earlier posting.

Beef, corn, wheat, and soy, all have gotten a bad reputations when it comes to dogs with allergies (ALL DOGS, not just Goldens or pure breeds either). Not because of any scientific studies that were conducted and documented (there are none) but rather by anecdotes repeated endlessly on the Internet and in so many recent books trying to 'sell' a particular pet diet or diet fad. Is it just a coincidence that these same 4 items also happen to be the most popular ingredients found in dog foods today and certainly in the dog foods of the past? And people foods (the stuff that so often seem to end up in many pet diets from 'kindly' owners) also contain these ingredients... if fact these are some of the most common ingredients found in people foods today. Is this all just coincidence? I'll just bet that if kangaroo meat and couscous were the most common ingredients found in current and past dog foods, you'd find a large number of allergy prone pets with allergies to these protein sources instead. People (and so probably dogs as well), do NOT inherit an allergy to a particular antigen (where people are concerned this is a known fact) but rather inherit the propensity for their immune system to over-react to normal, ordinary substances... in other words, just because your dad and mom both happen to have an allergy to dog dander does NOT mean you will inherit this same allergy but your odds are definitely greater to inherit some type of allergy... such as to pollen, or strawberries or bee stings or asthma or house mite dung, etc. Certain breeds of dogs or individual dogs are prone to allergies too and as such will most likely become allergic to whatever proteins they have been exposed to most... viola! beef, corn, wheat, soy. If you start off feeding your dogs 'lamb and rice' and your dog is prone to develop food allergies... guess what? its almost certain the allergy will be to either lamb or rice or both... then you could switch to 'beef and corn' and it will 'cure' your dog's food allergy problem... EXCEPT that if you have a dog who's prone to allergies he can (and probably will) simply develop a new allergy to beef or corn within a year or two, so its time to switch foods again... 'rabbit and sweet potato' maybe. Now if you will re-read my original posting again I think you will better understand what I was saying about corn, et al... and why it is so important to select a dog food with just a few protein sources and not be constantly switching foods or selecting foods with a lot of varied protein sources under the impression that that makes it a more complete diet... NOT IF YOUR DOG IS PRONE TO ALLERGIES, you are just creating a future nightmare scenario.

Does the quality of the ingredients make a difference? Well of course... its more common sense than anything else... need I say more. However don't fall into the 'by-products' trap... true, by definition it could contain beaks, feet and feathers as the marketers of up-scaled (read expensive) dog foods like to tout (its just a scare tactic) but it could also be hearts, kidneys, livers, etc. which provide much needed vitamins and minerals that meat alone cannot possibly provide. There MUST be a balance of the two. 'By-products' are only as good as the manufacturer's reputation... you've got to trust your selected dogfood maker will only put in the 'good stuff'. Use common sense, if the dogfood you are buying costs $9.99 for a 40-pound bag, obviously its not possible to provide the 'good stuff' and still make a profit. So just because a dogfood is expensive does not necessarily mean its a good, high-quality food (it only means that it is possible) but a cheap food is guaranteed to be a poor diet.

Sorry, I didn't mean to go off like that again but I just couldn't help myself.


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

I am going to get way off the subject here, but Monomer, does that explain how I could grow up with a pet cat and be fine, and now, several years later, be allergic to almost all cats?


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Yes!!!! Now you've got it!! That's why people who move to Arizona just to get away from their allergies simply develop new ones a year or two later... Its a real bummer, I should know I also have allergies...


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

I hope this does not mean I might develop an allergy to dogs. I don't know what I would do if I was allergic to Woody. Find a good allergy medicine, I suppose.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

You know this is a topic that has come up quite often in my circle of friends (just about all of us have allergies to something). In fact one friend of mine believes he is now allergic to his new dog (a rescue) but refuses to give him up. I know if I ever become allergic to Sidney, I'll just have to grin and bare it... allergy medicine or not.


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

I am right there with your friend. If I become allergic to Woody, I'll just have to find a good medicine, or grin and bear it. I actually talked to a girl who works at one of the vet's offices who is allergic to dogs, and she takes some prescription medicine for it. I am not sure what it is, but has your friend talked to a doctor about the possibilty of taking medication for his dog allergy? When I am going to be around cats, I take over-the-counter Claritin (loratidine), and it seems to help (Benadryl works too, but it makes me sleepy). I think allergy medicines have come a long way in recent years. My husband and I have both dealt with allergies pretty much since childhood. 

Now I am really off the subject!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

He's not completely sure at this point but he does get shots for his asthma and he has access to his son's Zyrtec (2 of his 3 children have allergies... each one to something different).

Allegra was a miracle for me the first 4 years I used it, then it just stopped working, Claritin and Clarinix both do nothing for me, and though I now take Zyrtec, I don't think it really works either... oh and Singular doesn't work either... so I guess I'm out-of-luck until the next generation of allergy medicines are release.


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## Dilligas (Jun 17, 2005)

I'll chime in the off-track thread here:

I think that explains my allergies too. I went to school in Iowa for four years, and mysteriously, at the very beginning of the third year I suddenly had wickedly bad allergies, having never been allergic to anything before. I've since moved to Washington State and have no allegries at all here (yet  , which is heavenly.

As for medicines, Allegra was great for "mild to moderate" allergies, but when the heavy season hit, nothing could help me. I took one Zyrtec once and it knocked me onto my back for about three days; I have no idea why, but I stay away from Zyrtec now!

Good info, and thanks for sharing


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Yes, unfortunately the odds of you developing another allergy at your new location within the next few years is pretty good. 'They' say that if you have allergies (especially food allergies) as a child, you have a moderate chance of out-growing them as an adult... but if you experience allergies for the first time as an adult you will probably be plagued with them the rest of your life. I evidently had allergies as a child (either pollen or mold spores, don't know) but only came to realize this in retrospect... (at the time I thought everyone woke up in the morning with dried mucous stuff welding their eyes-lids together)... but I out-grew it in my teen years, when I picked-up the nasty habit of smoking. I then essentially remained allergy-free until I quit smoking at the age of 37... the very next spring pollen allergies hit, and hit hard! I've had them twice a year, every year since. Was there a connection between smoking and allergies? I fantasize that my immune system was so over-worked trying to minimize the damage from smoking that it didn't have the energy or means left to fight the numerous common, ordinary things like pollen or mold spores.

And now as a feeble attempt to get the topic back on track... I've read several articles by vets that suggest that though food allergies is always the first suspect by owners when a dog begins chewing and scratching paws, tail, and face, it is actually almost never the culprit. 'They' say food ingredients actually account for less than 10% of all dog allergy cases where the source has positively been identified.


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## Boogity (Apr 23, 2005)

I've been gone for a cople days so I'm just now catching up.

You guys are great! Actually the off topic stuff is more interesting than the food discussion.

As the years slip away I notice that I have developed some alergies, too. But if I find that one is my doggies dander, or saliva, or whatever, then I'll just have to find some Allegra or Zyrtec because the dogs are going to stay.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Since we're off-topic again... Boogity, I just noticed your birthday is exactly the same as mine... well, except for the year... WOW! you're *really* an 'old guy'... yeah I should probably give my User Title to you.


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## Skenney (Jul 10, 2005)

I am very new at dog-ownership, so no flames please just repeating what I've read....

I remember seeing somewhere that corn wasn't good to feed dogs because its a "filler" to make them feel full but gives them really no nutrition? Kind of like how if people eat corn it doesn't digest, it comes out the same way it went in sort of a thing? Is that totall off base?


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## Boogity (Apr 23, 2005)

Skenny - I am by no means a dietician but I sure do like the fact that my dogs get some stuff in their bellies that just passes through. They think they're full so they're happy - but there is less chance of getting fat.

Like the fat plague in the USA with people, our dogs seem to be getting fatter too.

I don't really know what I'm talking about. I'm just trying to lighten the subject a little. I just think that there is a tiny bit of over-caution when it comes to the corn paranoia in petfood.

Signed,
Older Guy


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Corn has nutrient value for both people and dogs alike as well as insoluble fiber... which also is a good thing for both people and dogs alike. Corn is a source of some proteins and carbohydrates and even some essential fatty acids. However with corn, like other grains and vegetable matter, dogs do not possess the enzymes necessary to breakdown cellulose (whereas humans do produce the required enzyme for breaking down the cell walls, and ruminants, like cows and deer, have an even a more complete digestive system from cud chewing all the way to the ability to ferment and actually digest cellulose). If a dog were to eat any grain or vegetable matter whole (like a carrot for instance), it will essentially past through unaltered because the cell walls will remain completely intact. You must breakdown the cell walls either mechanically (running it through a blender but using a juicer is far more thorough) or by using heat (meaning to cook it). (By the way, people who give their dog a raw carrot and think they are giving their pet a nutritious treat are mistaken... if its not run through a blender or cooked first, all the nutrients remain locked-up within the 'cellulose package' and simply pass on through.) So if the corn is unprocessed then it will pass through the dog unchanged... but corn in kibble-type dogfood is milled (mechanically breaking open many cells and spilling out the contents) and then its steamed (cooked) under pressure (further releasing the contents of any cells that didn't rupture during the milling process)... making the 'good stuff' available to a dog's digestive tract. Of course the insoluble cellulose (cell walls) is fiber and will absorb liquids and so swell, this helps to bind up any toxic substances and 'scrub' the colon clean. Corn also provides the gluten which basically 'glues' the other food ingredients together so the mixture doesn't fall to pieces after the cooking and subsequent moisture removal.

Now I just used corn as the example... in the preceding paragraph you could just as well have replaced the word "corn" with any other grain (wheat, soy, barley, oats, whatever) and it still remains true.


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

Aside from all the allergy talk, I just wanted to give an update on our food situation. I decided to make the drive and spend the money, and we switched to Nutro Large Breed Puppy a few weeks ago. We love it! Woody has so much energy, and he loves the food. I have also found that I can feed him less of it--he often doesn't finish his morning meal, so I am going to try to cut it down a little. I wonder if in the end, there isn't much difference in price since he eats less. 

Thanks a lot for the advice, everyone!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

MegB said:


> ...I wonder if in the end, there isn't much difference in price since he eats less...


Yes, that's the logic most often given to justify why one should feed a high-quality kibble instead of the cheap supermarket brands. It goes something like this... Because of the higher quality of the protein sources used, its more digestible and so you need feed less and therefore it costs about the same in the end... PLUS, there's less volume of stool to clean-up and supposedly the improved health of your dog results in fewer health problems and thus fewer visits to the vet, actually making it CHEAPER to feed a high-quality kibble. And last of all, your dog will likely live longer on a high-quality diet. Though I know of no scientific studies conducted to prove any of these assumptions, I never-the-less perceive there is a logical basis to these arguments and so I just continue to spent the few extra dollars to feed Sidney the best.


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## goldensonly (Jun 13, 2005)

Dilligas said:


> I went to school in Iowa for four years



WHAT?????????? !!! !!! :curtain: 

WHERE??????????????


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