# Type of Trainer?



## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

I would go positive trainer over pack leader every time 100% NO QUESTION

I am sure there are dogs who need a pack leader trainer at certain points but why start with a heavy hand when you don't have truly bad problems. I wouldn't want a puppy in that type of training at that age. 

You can always move up to a pack leader type program (I wouldn't personally, but that is my own belief and no one has to agree) but with a pup I wouldn't start there

::runs away from screaming mob of Cesar Milan fans:: hehe

GOOD LUCK!!!!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Being pack leader IS NOT about being dominant and/or heavy handed. Period. I'd run from a trainer who wanted me to pay him money to tell me otherwise.

Leadership is about setting clear expectations, teaching behavior you want and teaching your dog that doing what you like is the key that opens the door to everything good for him.

Go with a good positive trainer.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

BTW - if that guy tried to tell you that counter surfing and jumping up are dominance
issues...... he's, um, well, how should I put this.......... a quack!


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Being pack leader IS NOT about being dominant and/or heavy handed. Period. I'd run from a trainer who wanted me to pay him money to tell me otherwise.
> 
> Leadership is about setting clear expectations, teaching behavior you want and teaching your dog that doing what you like is the key that opens the door to everything good for him.
> 
> Go with a good positive trainer.



:appl::appl::appl:


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

:headbang2I totally agree!!!!


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## geoff_rey (Aug 5, 2008)

Well... good luck stopping the bad habits.


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## colton (Jun 5, 2008)

I think you need to take your dogs personality into account. My pup is a sweet gentle soul who just wants to please all the time so positive reinforcement works wonders with him, but I had an alpha Rottweiler who tried to take the upper hand whenever he could so I had to go the dominant pack leader route with him. You already know your pup...follow your instincts.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Positive trainer 100% of the time. You are absolutely right to be concerned about how the "pack leader" guy won't address the specific issues until you've established "dominance" - he doesn't know how to deal with issues other than by intimidating your dog into not wanting to do anything.


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

I concur with those above!.. Maybe find a clicker trainer if you can, that's always fun.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Is this dog to be a pet, or do you have performance objectives for fieldwork?

EvanG


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

EvanG said:


> Is this dog to be a pet, or do you have performance objectives for fieldwork?
> 
> EvanG


Just curious why you think that matters? Performance dogs don't need to be "dominated" any more than pet dogs do.

My Quiz has been positively trained for competitive obedience and agility. He's kicking butt so far in obedience - 5 Qs for 5 rings; first placements everytime; all scores of 195-199 out of 200....


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## Soda (Feb 23, 2008)

Hard to train an invisible dog over the net but I agree with "Quiz's" philosophy that there is a difference in leadership vs dominance.

I also think there is a misunderstanding about what positive training is all about. It's not ignoring the consequences for bad behavior, it's making sure to reward the right behavior more frequently. Dogs are sometimes rewarded by doing the things we find offensive.

I'm not sure that dominance work would be where I'd start with a 4 month old puppy but again, hard to train an invisible dog.

I have a rule that if I'm not comfortable with the technique I have no problem telling the instructor. There are a lot of techniques out there and the only way people will be consistent is to find one that fits them and works for the dog.

Just my opinion.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Just curious why you think that matters? Performance dogs don't need to be "dominated" any more than pet dogs do.


I didn't ask that question to enter that debate. Performance standards vary from venue to venue, including practical fieldwork. But not everyone requires equally pricise standards, and I understand that.

You clearly have a hypersensitivity to the domination issue. I hope you work through it. I'm a little more pragmatic about dog training.

If the originator of this thread has field performance goals I can help. So I offered my question.

EvanG


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

EvanG said:


> I didn't ask that question to enter that debate. Performance standards vary from venue to venue, including practical fieldwork. But not everyone requires equally pricise standards, and I understand that.
> 
> You clearly have a hypersensitivity to the domination issue. I hope you work through it. I'm a little more pragmatic about dog training.
> 
> ...


Yup. "Dominance" is a hot button topic for me. I'll admit it. I think it's a grossly mis- and over-used term in dog training and that many dogs are treated unkindly thanks to their humans' need to feel "dominant" over the dog.

Many people have the mis conception that you have to be "dominant" or whatever to get a solid performance or solid behavior out of a dog. It's simply not true - whether you're training a pet dog, obedience dog, field dog, helping rehab a problem dog -- the laws of learning remain the same.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I personally am not for a 100% positive trainer...I'd rather have someone who is more flexible then that. But its important to go with what you feel comfortable with and with techniques you are capable of doing. 

But this pack-leader one....I don't know if I would feel comfortable with the vagueness. I do think a four month old will test limits and might vie for dominence as a natural part of growing...maybe that is what he's talking about.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Lucky's mom said:


> I personally am not for a 100% positive trainer...I'd rather have someone who is more flexible then that. But its important to go with what you feel comfortable with and with techniques you are capable of doing.


I agree with Cyndi. But you have to remember what works for one of us might not be the best option for your dog.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Even I will say that there's no such thing as a 100% positive trainer, and I laugh when people try to tell me that they are. Scientifically, it's impossible! 

I use aversives in training - but I use them minimally and certain tools (e-collar, choke chain being two) will never find their way into my training bag. And when I train, I *never* feel like my primary mission is to "dominate" the dog. I need the dog to be on my team and I want the dog to want to be on my team.


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## SadieBodean (Mar 28, 2008)

Quiz--I have some questions for you. I have also (like the OP) been researching my options for obedience training for Gracie who is now 5 months old. I have trained obedience before (2 Border Collies) but back then it was the old jerk the choke collar method. The method may work but neither dog enjoyed obedience. This time I want to make sure to keep it fun for the dog.

I don't know how far I'll take it, not planning on being real competitive, but would like to get at least a CD and maybe a CDX. Not looking for HIT or anything but if Gracie could have as much fun in the ring as Quiz does, judging from your videos, then that will be reward enough. 

I would love to take your class but unfortunately that's a little too far to drive every week. But I think I've found a place to take classes, they use positive reinforcement and also train agility which is something else I'd like to try. I asked them what kind of collar she should wear and the trainer said it was up to me. Different people with different types of dogs use different collars. So I'm just wondering what do you use when training a young dog? Gracie will be 6 months old when we start and she is a very calm, easy going dog. 

Also, have you read Patricia McConnell's book, The Other End of the Leash? She had a couple of examples in there of dogs that were trained with the dominance method and it totally ruined the dog. Some were able to be saved by retraining but one poor GR had to be put down because he had become so agressive.

One more question. I observed a different class, also positive reinforcement, and they taught the recall by first just calling the dog's name in a very sing-song like manner. And when the dog responds give it a treat. The idea being eventually the dog will her you call it's name and come running. Not sure how they then progress from there. But my thought was if I'm training for competitive obedience, when I call my dog's name in the ring I don't want her running to me right away, I want her to look at me and wait for the command that follows. Not sure how the class that I'll be going to handles this but what are your thoughts?

Sorry this is so long, but I do admire your training style and don't know anyone else to ask. Thanks.


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## spruce (Mar 13, 2008)

Bridger & I have been going to a Ob I (clicker) class that I've learned alot from, but is is too, too food based (with no fade-out mentioned) -- I'm imagining all these fat, well trained dogs.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Hi there,

I have a copy of The Other End of the Leash but haven't read that one yet. I tend to have more books than I can keep up with at any given time! However, I'm familiar with McConnell's work and admire her greatly.

The majority of my training is all done in a regular collar. I personally like martingales since they are harder for the dog to somehow slip out of. I also like the extra loop on them as I can use it as a handle for restrained recalls, etc. and not worry about the dot slipping the collar. I've used a pinch collar on Quiz in a very specific way in the beginning of his attention heelwork. We did Terry Arnold's method with the pinch. (She has a series of books - the first of the three details her attention heelwork training.) With her method, the pinch becomes a sort of conditioned reinforcer rather than a punisher -- it's used to animate the dog rather than control and flatten. Even with that, I weaned off the pinch very quickly and was back to the regular flat collar.

As for recall (and by that, I mean in a life-saving way, not a formal come to front like in obedience) I also teach the dog to have a snappy response to his name first. I don't do sing-song, but I'll have the dog on a regular leash, wait until he's distracted and then say his name. When he looks at me, I mark it with a clicker or a verbal "yes!" and give a treat. The idea is I want the dog to learn to snap to attention when he hears his name. I can't recall ever having Quiz come to me in the obed ring just on his name, although if you watch the video of our 3rd leg, you'll see he was doing some sight-seeing as I walked away and it's actually his name that snaps him back to attention a split second before I said "front". I personally love the snappy response to the name. I've had Quiz turn on a dime just on his name while running on the beach. To me, the benefit of that outweighs the possible risk of him anticipating in the obed ring. Plus, dogs learn context and in the context of the ring, I believe they learn the difference. Anticipation is something we have to work through in any patterned trained sport like obedience. Watch utility dogs while training - you often see anticipation on signals and also the turn and sit in the go out. It's just something we have to train through.

Hope that helps! That's great that you're interested in competitive obedience. I think it's great fun! Happy Training!

-Stephanie





SadieBodean said:


> Quiz--I have some questions for you. I have also (like the OP) been researching my options for obedience training for Gracie who is now 5 months old. I have trained obedience before (2 Border Collies) but back then it was the old jerk the choke collar method. The method may work but neither dog enjoyed obedience. This time I want to make sure to keep it fun for the dog.
> 
> I don't know how far I'll take it, not planning on being real competitive, but would like to get at least a CD and maybe a CDX. Not looking for HIT or anything but if Gracie could have as much fun in the ring as Quiz does, judging from your videos, then that will be reward enough.
> 
> ...


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

spruce said:


> Bridger & I have been going to a Ob I (clicker) class that I've learned alot from, but is is too, too food based (with no fade-out mentioned) -- I'm imagining all these fat, well trained dogs.


The clicker was designed to be a learning tool using during aquisition of new behaviors. It should be faded. As for food rewards, my dogs certainly no longer get a treat for every sit, but I do still use food to a large degree in my training - it's just used intermittently and after expecting more "behavior" from the dog. Also, remember that you can train with food and have the food be your dog's ration of kibble for a meal. Often, that's how my puppies eat breakfast -- it's served throughout the day as rewards for behavior I like.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

I've felt for years that dominant minded trainers suffer from a misperception in the area of the pack animal philosophy, at least a high percentage of them. Let's face it, some people are just manipulative. If they can't get away with it on people, they do it to dogs. Sad.

But the pack animal philosophy leads some trainers to make the reach that domesticated dogs are perhaps closer to the grey wolf than they really are. There have been countless generations of domesticity, which have provided a much more people oriented, bidable animal in our dogs. They don't need us to fill the role of Alpha as much as true wild pack animals do.

EvanG


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Suggested reading

Ethology studies the reasons why things are the way they are - in this case, why dogs behave the way they do. And to study that, it's necessary to go back to our domesticated dogs' ancestral roots - the wolf - in its natural environment. According to PBS's well-researched *Evolution of the Dog*, today’s domesticated dog, _Canis lupus familiaris, _is a direct descendent of the gray wolf, _Canis lupus. _And this is verified through molecular dating of their DNA. 

DNA studies also show that the domesticated dog came about some 130,000 years ago, not 12,000 years ago, as originally speculated. So, since this dates our dogs back to a time before humans even began farming, rather than mere gathering, it raises questions about whether we intentionally domesticated _them _- for companionship or protection - or whether they adapted to _us _for whatever we could offer them in terms of shelter, food, and so on. 

Given that background, we have a stronger basis for understanding why dogs do what they do by studying what wolves do in their natural environment. J.P. Scott and J.L. Fuller, in their book _*Genetics and Social Behavior of the Dog*, _were pioneers in this field. Ahead of their time, they had already noted that dogs still have more than 60 behaviors in common with wolves. These genetically based behaviors include concepts such as fixed-action patterns (circling before lying down, for example), socialization, rank, critical developmental periods, and others.

There is much more, of course. And it's a good read.

EvanG


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## keyk (Apr 19, 2008)

Just wanted to thank you all for your replies! I'm glad my concerns with the 'pack leader' trainer were valid...for my specific purpose anyway. Darby is just our pet - and I am most worried about manners, so I'll definitely stick with the positive reinforcement route of training! Thanks again!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Hi Evan G,

I have three goldens- a five year old fieldstyle boy with CGC, a one year old comformation style boy with CGC and one CD leg so far, and a crackerjack dual purpose puppy from Topbrass. 

This question is about the pup(6 months old).Having only trained with positive methods shored up by common sense aversives as Quiz says, and believing these are philosophically and pragmatically the best methods, I am deeply soul-searching over ecollar field training/force fetch for my Topbrass pup- sending her to fantastic local professions for handling. She aced her puppy field class, and was grouped with the labs. Her mom was JH in four, SH in 4, MH easily- grampa in hall of fame, so it seems a shame not to let her do what she is born to do. However, all the wonderful,caring experts here in Maine give the reality check that, over JH, force fetch and ecollar are very necessary tools. I have been holding her back out of fear of thse tools and squeamishness, but I see her light up w/pigeons and looooooove the retrieving. What do you think? I am on the fence.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Ljilly28 said:


> Hi Evan G,
> 
> I have three goldens- a five year old fieldstyle boy with CGC, a one year old comformation style boy with CGC and one CD leg so far, and a crackerjack dual purpose puppy from Topbrass.
> 
> This question is about the pup(6 months old).Having only trained with positive methods shored up by common sense aversives as Quiz says, and believing these are philosophically and pragmatically the best methods, I am deeply soul-searching over ecollar field training/force fetch for my Topbrass pup- sending her to fantastic local professions for handling. She aced her puppy field class, and was grouped with the labs. Her mom was JH in four, SH in 4, MH easily- grampa in hall of fame, so it seems a shame not to let her do what she is born to do. However, all the wonderful,caring experts here in Maine give the reality check that, over JH, force fetch and ecollar are very necessary tools. I have been holding her back out of fear of thse tools and squeamishness, but I see her light up w/pigeons and looooooove the retrieving. What do you think? I am on the fence.


You didn't ask for my opinion, but I can't help but offer it anyway! :wavey:

I'm in much the same situation as you. Quiz is a performance dynamo! He nailed his JH in 5 starts (only failed once and in a test where 80% of the JH dogs failed on the same bird - that to me says more about the test than the dogs IMO) with nothing more than basic obedience training on him. He loves the field work and I love watchig that instinct kick in. I'd love to train for higher levels but am sick of hearng how I *have* to force fetch and use an e-collar if I expect to get anywhere. I simply don't believe it to be true, if for no other reason than the fact that dogs have been retrieving game for man since before electicity, and at a time where, if the dog didn't do it right, you didn't get to eat!

Anyway, there ARE positive field trainers out there but they are hard to find. I'm pretty sure there's a Yahoo group online for positive gun dog work. There's also The Clicked Retriever and Positive Gun Dogs, both books that details field work w/o things like force fetching and e-collars.

Yes - no doubt it takes longer to train that way, but I still believe it can be done. If I didn't live so **** far from a good training site (hard to do retrieve work in the City!) I'd be attempting to do it myself. It's 1.25 hours each way to a training field and with traffic, it's more like 2+ hours. Given that obedience and agility are my first loves, I can't justify sacrificing the time to try and prove a point in the field. But I hope to someday! I get that none of the e-collar people will ever take the "clicker people" seriously until we've "proven" our methods by producing top dogs in the field. It's a tall order b/c we're vastly outnumbered by the e-collar people, etc. 

And when it comes to e-collar use, I think so much depends on who you're working with. I've watched people light up the dogs out of frustration and it's people like that who make we want to ban e collars all togehter. I think it takes a very special trainer to have the self control to consistently use an e-collar in a fair way. It's too easy for people to use it as a tool of "revenge" when the dog isn't performing the way they want.

So, back to the OP's question... I think the bottom line is what you're comfortable with. It's a tough question. For me, I've chosen to put field work on hold for now to focus on other things, but I do hope to revisit it at some point while using positive methods.

I truly believe it can be done... and at some point, I hope to be able to show it off!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Does anyone know the stats on dogs that have excelled in field work and trained only using positive training methods?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Here's an article on positive methods in field work. I'll ask on a few of the clicker lists I'm on if anyone can name any "known" field dogs w/ pos training behind them.

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/981


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## Brady's mom (Dec 20, 2007)

We've been through three different trainers so far--two I'd call "positive with consequences" and the other all positive. I'm probably in the minority here, but Brady did much better with the trainers who helped us use corrections to curb bad behavior. The all-positive class was fun, but let's just say I spent a small fortune in treats, and I don't think Brady was any better behaved afterwards than after any of his other classes.

We have had good experiences with a private trainer (one of the "positive with consequence" trainers) and I highly recommend having someone in your home to help with bad behaviors--there's only so much you can learn in class when you're surrounded by other dogs and owners.








keyk said:


> Hi! Darby is 4 months old and although she is fairly well behaved, there are some bad habits that I want to get rid of asap (counter cruising, jumping up on people are the main ones!). The only 'basic obedience' class in the area won't let puppies start until they are 6 months old, and since Darby is getting large, I decided to go with a personal trainer. Darby can already sit, down, stay for a short period of time, and is extremely well behaved with other dogs so I'm not sure that basic obedience would really be much help for her. Anyway, there are two types of styles of trainers in the area - positive reinforcement and pack leader training. I understand the positive reinforcement standpoint, but I had never actually worked with a pack leader trainer, so I took Darby for his introductory session. What he was saying made sense to me, although I thought he was a bit aggressive with my sweet puppy (or maybe I'm too affectionate ), and wouldn't address my specific behavior issues until he felt we had worked with the dominance switch first.
> 
> For those of you who have used either style, what did or didn't you like? Who would you recommend I go with?
> 
> Thanks!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Hi Evan G,
> 
> 
> I am deeply soul-searching over ecollar field training/force fetch for my Topbrass pup- sending her to fantastic local professions for handling...What do you think? I am on the fence.


I don't think I would be doing you any service by being anything other than honest and straight forward with you, so here are my opinions and suggestions.

*Topbrass* (Jackie Mertens' stock) is some of the finest field breeding among Golden Retrievers
I applaud your soul-searching in this decision making process
Genuine soul-searching generally leads to legitimate conclusions, and offers the searcher the capacity to overcome preconceived notions and habits in behalf of real personal growth
With this inquiry we can begin a series of discussions that I believe will put this discussion into its proper context. It will require some stating of facts, along with some Q&A between us to get past some misconceptions that permeate the dog world on the subjects of "Positive-only" vs. anything akin to punishment in dog training.

First, while I'm not a opponent of clicker use, I'm not a clicker fan for fieldwork, as there are (in my opinion) still too few substantive accomplishments on record to support it as anything other than a worthy notion that is still in an experimental stage for this level of work. 

What is more important than merely signing on to the use of a clicker is a better understanding of Operant Conditioning, which is the process of behavioral engineering for which the clicker is now being popularly applied.

I _am_ a fan of Operant Conditioning, and I assert that it is far from being a new approach to retriever training for fieldwork. Indeed, highly accomplished retriever trainers have employed it for many decades. But the reward mechanism has been and continues to be treat training.

*Operant Conditioning*: "Conditioning in which the desired behavior, or increasingly closer approximations to it, are followed by a rewarding stimulus.” Webster’s dictionary

The use of treats as a rewarding stimulus has a long and well-proven track record, so that is what I recommend for starting puppies in their fundamental obedience conditioning. My Puppy Program DVD should be finished and ready for market next week (I hope), and will outline this process. The excellent Canadian obedience trainer, Anne Everett will appear in numerous demonstrations with a 9 ½ week old Golden pup named Luke.

Your interest in the use of quality aversives, such as an e-collar, will require you to become acquainted with both Operant Conditioning and high level processes for appropriate use of aversives. Let me state at this point that any aversive is as useful and humane, or as destructive and inhumane as the person using it. This is true, whether the instrument is an e-collar, a heeling stick, a leash, or a rolled-up newspaper.

Indeed, people are all too often inhumane to dogs without the use of any type of physical aversives. I won't launch into an oration on that topic at this time, as I want to remain on topic.

Let's start here, and see if you have questions so far?

EvanG


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

*Ljilly28,*

*Still searching?*

*EvanG*


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

EvanG said:


> *Ljilly28,*
> 
> *Still searching?*
> 
> *EvanG*


Hi Evan, I am not against aversive training. But if I can choose between,say, the correction method for heel or teaching heel through targeting, in my experience the positive method produces the more joyful learner. I don't really believe my golden can acheive her MH without force-fetch and ecollar conditioning, and I am not opposed to these tools in the hands of Jackie Mertens or in your hands, but still just can't quite surrender my pup to it. When the "reward"part of operant conditioning means the ceasing of pain or discomfort, then I am uncomfortable putting my pup in the situation. I do agree people can abuse dogs with a simple leash and dogs might perceive limitiation by leash as aversive, but what it comes down to is that I have year after year of experience in skillful timing with a leash and zero experience with an ecollar. I suppose my lack of experience with it makes it kind of a fearsome prospect for my very good,motivated puppy. An electric shock seems very severe for a willing puppy who is eager to please and talented.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Hi Evan, I am not against aversive training. But if I can choose between,say, the correction method for heel or teaching heel through targeting, in my experience the positive method produces the more joyful learner.


Do you recall my comment about "genuine soul-searching"? Your mind appears to be less than open to learning at this point. That will make it difficult for you to progress, even if the progression is purely informational.

You haven’t even asked how punishers – aversives or otherwise - are applied. You haven’t really asked anything practical about the subject you inquired about in specific terms so you might end up knowing more than when you began. Did you really want to know more, or did you really already have your mind made up? The “joyful learner” is the object of our efforts, and hundreds of new trainers each year succeed in accomplishing exactly that because they take the time and effort to learn beyond their baseline.


Ljilly28 said:


> I don't really believe my golden can acheive her MH without force-fetch and ecollar conditioning, and I am not opposed to these tools in the hands of Jackie Mertens or in your hands, but still just can't quite surrender my pup to it.


You mean in _your_ hands? I had 5 dogs on the National Derby List in '92. Our top Derby dog was "Lucy" (national #3); a black lab owned by my friend Wil Wilbanks. I called Wil from a trial in Georgia one evening and told him I was going to start training some of our dogs as two-sided heelers, having had several meaningful discussions about it with Mike Lardy.

Wil said, "Well, don't bother doing that with Lucy because I just don't think I could run her off my _right_ side."

I said, "Wil, a year ago you couldn't run her off your _left_ side!" It is a universal principle of life that if you are unwilling to fail, you are unequipped to succeed.

Your hands operate like anyone else's - mine included. It's education and practice you need; in that order!


Ljilly28 said:


> When the "reward"part of operant conditioning means the ceasing of pain or discomfort, then I am uncomfortable putting my pup in the situation. I do agree people can abuse dogs with a simple leash and dogs might perceive limitiation by leash as aversive, but what it comes down to is that I have year after year of experience in skillful timing with a leash and zero experience with an ecollar.


There was a time when you had zero experience with a leash, too. How did you get so good at it?


Ljilly28 said:


> I suppose my lack of experience with it makes it kind of a fearsome prospect for my very good,motivated puppy. An electric shock seems very severe for a willing puppy who is eager to please and talented.


Your cautious approach is commendable. That will help you to study closely the correct techniques for its use, and to use it judiciously, as my coursework emphasizes.

How do you feel about personal growth? I'm not being scornful or facetious. I'm trying to find out the depth of your searching in this matter so I can determine if my efforts will have any productive effect at all.

EvanG


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

*Ljilly28,*

I posted an article in your honor today. Go to www.rushcreekpress.com and click on the Articles tab. It's the top article, The Passivity-only Mentality. I hope you find it informative.

EvanG


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

EvanG said:


> *Ljilly28,*
> 
> I posted an article in your honor today. Go to www.rushcreekpress.com and click on the Articles tab. It's the top article, The Passivity-only Mentality. I hope you find it informative.
> 
> EvanG


 
Great Article Evan!! :dblthumb2


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I was wondering where you were SC. I remember some of the lessons you have shared over the years.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

> Do you recall my comment about "genuine soul-searching"? Your mind appears to be less than open to learning at this point. That will make it difficult for you to progress, even if the progression is purely informational.You haven’t even asked how punishers – aversives or otherwise - are applied. You haven’t really asked anything practical about the subject you inquired about in specific terms so you might end up knowing more than when you began.


Okay Evan G- your approach to _humans_ doesn't work for me. I wonder if you make dogs feel as attacked as I do in reading the tone of your comments- I hope not for the dog's sake. I hope you are as great as you claim to be, and that this abrasive style is only for random strangers on the internet. I will ask Jackie about you, and hope the word is good. I havent had time to ask you questions bc I have been working with a real live trainer recommended by my pup's trusted breeder the last few days- and asking him those questions. Please don't put anymore of your effort in- I've already had enough of your style. I'll do my learning from respected dog people I actually know/with whom I have established relationships - not some guy on the internet. I was very interested in your ideas, and wanted you to feel welcome. However, you somehow think being publically rude to me is going to be effective communication. I certainly wouldnt send a dog to you after your boastful, aggressive approach to communicating on this thread. The random hostility & narcissism makes you seem crazy, not convincing or authoritative. I am sure you are not like that in real life, so I will try to think the best.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

i've never used food rewards when training my dogs, I've never had a problem with them not listening. Iuse vorbal and pats for rewards, I don't like the obedience club we have here they use food rewards and some of there dogs won't do a thing unless theres food involved. I was there watching they teach there dogs a way i do not like. Like there was a cavalier king charles spaniel there it wouldn't go on the mat like it was told too and the trainer gave him a reward. To me this is just teaching the dog that is alright not to do what they say too. Also there was a lady there being smart as i asked does any dog here sit without needing food, Well she said yeah my labrador does well she said sit the dog didn't sit till she reached into her pocket for a fodd treat then the dog sat straight away. I turned and said yeah smart dog, I had Einstein with me i said this is a trained dog clicked my finger once he sat clicked twice he droped all there jaws droped to the ground in suprize that my dog didn't need food to do that. They say they work with postive reforcement and wean the dogs off the food rewards. I aksed when does that heppen they said they start weaning them off when ther 2 years old, To me that is too old they dog would be hooked on food rewards. I find with goldens they don't need the food rewards i found my guys are happy with vorbal and pats as a reward. cause of the way i saw this obedience club train there dogs i decided not to even enroll my guys into it as i believe i train them better then they ever will. What do i do if the dog doesn't listen i ignore them walk away which then makes the dog follow i then turn around and say sit if they listen the get attection. So basicly they have to work for my attection which has worked well for me. I do pay them attection to them when outside of traing pating,cuddling etc but it hasn't affected there training what so ever. They know when i'm training them and when its play time.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

EvanG said:


> *Ljilly28,*
> 
> I posted an article in your honor today. Go to www.rushcreekpress.com and click on the Articles tab. It's the top article, The Passivity-only Mentality. I hope you find it informative.
> 
> EvanG


In my honor , huh? I don't like being singled out, so please knock it off & quit acting like a bully.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> i've never used food rewards when training my dogs, I've never had a problem with them not listening. Iuse vorbal and pats for rewards, I don't like the obedience club we have here they use food rewards and some of there dogs won't do a thing unless theres food involved. I was there watching they teach there dogs a way i do not like. Like there was a cavalier king charles spaniel there it wouldn't go on the mat like it was told too and the trainer gave him a reward. To me this is just teaching the dog that is alright not to do what they say too. Also there was a lady there being smart as i asked does any dog here sit without needing food, Well she said yeah my labrador does well she said sit the dog didn't sit till she reached into her pocket for a fodd treat then the dog sat straight away. I turned and said yeah smart dog, I had Einstein with me i said this is a trained dog clicked my finger once he sat clicked twice he droped all there jaws droped to the ground in suprize that my dog didn't need food to do that. They say they work with postive reforcement and wean the dogs off the food rewards. I aksed when does that heppen they said they start weaning them off when ther 2 years old, To me that is too old they dog would be hooked on food rewards. I find with goldens they don't need the food rewards i found my guys are happy with vorbal and pats as a reward. cause of the way i saw this obedience club train there dogs i decided not to even enroll my guys into it as i believe i train them better then they ever will. What do i do if the dog doesn't listen i ignore them walk away which then makes the dog follow i then turn around and say sit if they listen the get attection. So basicly they have to work for my attection which has worked well for me. I do pay them attection to them when outside of traing pating,cuddling etc but it hasn't affected there training what so ever. They know when i'm training them and when its play time.


My experience has been very different. When teaching behaviors (sit, down etc) food rewards have created results where after the training period Lucky "reacts" immediately with the command. I don't 'fade" treats. I stop them when he follows the command likes its part of his nature. 

PLUS...when I'm trying to replace a bad behavior with a good behavior during high excitement times (like mauling guests) food reward training cuts through the excitement (and the cobwebs) and he learns to behave and listen during these high-stress times. 

Lucky is one food-motivated dog!

But its not for every situation we've had...but for Lucky reward training is powerful stuff.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> In my honor , huh? I don't like being singled out, so please knock it off & quit acting like a bully.


Ljilly28,

I wish you the best of luck. Say "Hi" to Jackie for me. Nice lady, and very knowledegable. We met a number of times at field trials in years past. 

I didn't single you out in any way other than to make a genuine effort to offer you the help and information you asked for. As I said initially, I don't think it would serve you in any constructive way to be anything other than honest and straight forward with you.

If my un-whitewashed approach has insulted you, I apologize. There are plenty of sources that will say anything they think you may want to hear, whether it has any real substance or not. 

But you asked me for my opinion on the e-collar, and aversive oriented style of fieldwork training, and I've spent considerable time and effort to provide my unvarnished opinions about it. That article has been in my computer for some time now. I brought out and placed in on my website in hopes that you may yet give some new ideas a portion of real consideration.

Best of luck, whatever avenue you pursue.

EvanG


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> My experience has been very different. When teaching behaviors (sit, down etc) food rewards have created results where after the training period Lucky "reacts" immediately with the command. I don't 'fade" treats. I stop them when he follows the command likes its part of his nature.
> 
> PLUS...when I'm trying to replace a bad behavior with a good behavior during high excitement times (like mauling guests) food reward training cuts through the excitement (and the cobwebs) and he learns to behave and listen during these high-stress times.
> 
> ...


And your results are far more typical than GoldenOwner12's. By far, the positive (Operant Conditioning) approach you've taken will be easy, low key, and well accepted by most pups.

Many of the best retreiver trainers start their pups that way, and for good reason. High success with a high percentage of pups that end up performing stylishly and at the highest levels.

EvanG


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