# Does this seem strange to you? Deposits 9 months early?



## Kevinsmom (Jul 26, 2011)

I have learned so much in the last few months about searching for a puppy but still have a lot to learn but decided to help a friend in her search. She wants an English style golden puppy and sent me this site for Somerset golden retrievers today. At first it looked very impressive but now I have questions. http://www.somersetgoldens.com/puppieslitter2012.html They say they are currently accepting reservations/deposits now in early December for a litter that may occur next summer. Has anyone run across this before? It seems odd to me to hold someone's money that long, especially since the dogs they are wanting to breed don't have health clearances yet. They do say they will refund your money if the breeding doesn't happen. I know it is good they are waiting to breed the dogs but taking deposits that early seems different then what I found in my search. I have heard of breeders taking deposits once they know there is a pregnancy or once the puppies are born. Also I can't see what they have bred in the past and all the pictures on their website are the same two dogs so I wonder if they are breeders or just breeding their pets. I want to be able to help my friend and she really likes this website so thank you for any help I can pass on. 
Dee


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

My breeder put us on a waiting list, but did not accept a deposit until pregnancy was confirmed by ultrasound. I don't think she actually cashed my check until the puppies were actually a week old.


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## AlanK (Jun 28, 2008)

I do not know how all of that works with breeders and waiting on a puppy. 

That being said I would never fork over any money that early. Most reputable breeders do have a waiting list that remains full and I would guess they are not worried about placing any of the litter. I would not think they would ask for a deposit that early. MHO


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

I waited over 8 months for Lucky. His breeder only breeds for spring litters because he takes them off flea, tick, and heartworm preventives then because the ground is frozen. My vet told me also this as okay. 

The first time I went it was for a different litter. Only one of the male pups was going to possibly be a dark golden.

Starr who ended up being Lucky's mom was about 18 months at the time and he said he was going to breed her her next cycle in the winter. She was a rich dark golden and so was Otis the male he was going to use. He breeder said her litter would be full of darker goldens he thought but could not guarantee it. I wanted a dark golden and was willing to wait The breeder called when Starr was pregnant as well as when the puppies where born. He took the deposit when I went to see the puppies at 4 weeks old. 

Good things come to those that wait.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well I can totally see getting on the list and planning ahead. I would have a hard time though sending in a deposit for an unconfirmed litter that is 9 months out. Both of the dogs aren't even two yet so no final clearances (I assume she will get them when they turn two and that is why the wait...I hope). 

What are the terms of the deposit? Will you get it back if the breeding doesn't take? How long will you have to wait? Etc.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I know a lot of breeders that keep a "list" of interested parties if they don't currently have a litter. When the bitch is bred, they will update the families and when the litter is born, they will call the folks on the list to see if they are still interested. Only then do they request a deposit ($100). Often times many people on the list have found a puppy elsewhere, etc... but some are still waiting for that litter. 

I personally would not send in a deposit yet this far out, not to mention there are no clearances in place yet....


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I keep a wait list for my litters and only ask for a deposit once I know I have a puppy for the family. I am not going to hold someone hostage for months waiting on a pup that may or may not materialize.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

I have waited for confirmation of pregnancy or a puppy before taking a deposit for my puppies. Taking money on a hopeful litter that isn't old enough or have clearances is just silly.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I never take deposits before the second week, when I know how many living puppies I have. I cannot imagine asking for a deposit that far ahead. There is way too much that can happen between now and the time of the litter. What if the litter is all boys? All girls? They all die? The bitch doesn't take? Even assuming you get your money back, you have wasted a lot of time waiting and now have to start over.

This is a first time breeder, and this will be her first litter, so she has not yet experienced all the bad (and the good) that comes with breeding. I will say that she is a wonderful marketing person and takes wonderful photos of her dogs.

She is probably trying to make sure she "does the right thing" and has homes lined up ahead of time, but I think this goes too far.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I take deposits after the pups are born... So for me, that would be an issue. The to be parents only have prelim clearances....the bitch's was done at 11 months and the dog was done at 13 months. They need to be done no sooner than 24 months. And people on this forum who breed from foreign lines could explain this better than I can....but that website claiming to have "English Goldens" (whatever that means) actually has dogs with lines from France and the Netherlands. The people on this forum who live in the UK will be the first to tell someone that English Golden does not equal white/creme golden.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Kevinsmom said:


> I have learned so much in the last few months about searching for a puppy but still have a lot to learn but decided to help a friend in her search. She wants an English style golden puppy and sent me this site for Somerset golden retrievers today. At first it looked very impressive but now I have questions. http://www.somersetgoldens.com/puppieslitter2012.html They say they are currently accepting reservations/deposits now in early December for a litter that may occur next summer. Has anyone run across this before? It seems odd to me to hold someone's money that long, especially since the dogs they are wanting to breed don't have health clearances yet. They do say they will refund your money if the breeding doesn't happen. I know it is good they are waiting to breed the dogs but taking deposits that early seems different then what I found in my search. I have heard of breeders taking deposits once they know there is a pregnancy or once the puppies are born. Also I can't see what they have bred in the past and all the pictures on their website are the same two dogs so I wonder if they are breeders or just breeding their pets. I want to be able to help my friend and she really likes this website so thank you for any help I can pass on.
> Dee


 
We keep waiting lists for families that may want puppies in the summer, but that is all it is: A list of families who have an interest for a puppy. We don't ever take deposits until the puppies are here and I know everyone is healthy and the ratio of boys to girls.

My reason for waiting is that I don't want to be holding onto someone's money because there are so many things that can happen-girls miss, they resorb puppies, don't have the sex of puppy the family has a preference for, etc.

I think it is worse in this case because the breeding is so far down the road and you don't have final clearances in place. A lot of things can happen in 9 months time......


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

She is a totally new breeder and IS trying to do it right but I will have a talk with her as I had planned on talking to her anyway. She has asked about using my boy Alex and the pedigree would be really nice together but she doesn't really know how to do "it" so to speak and she is learning... she has had a hard time finding a mentor so I have been talking to her quite a bit. She is showing and doing things with her dogs and will be doing all clearances... 

I would not be scared off as the deposits as I recall are totally refundable... but again I will talk to her... as planning to do so anyway after the holidays. I think she is trying to seperate the men from the boys so to speak. 

I actually am going to invite her to join this board... I think it will be good for her... 
S


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## dexter0125 (Mar 20, 2011)

She's my friend on facebook. Ha. She's very nice as a person, but as a breeder..like Shalva said she's new. If she is able to find a good mentor, I think she'll do a good job and do all she can to breed healthy babies. I hope if you decide to go with her you have a good experience


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

*early deposits*

Hello. I have just joined this group. I may clear up some questions directly for you now about why we are accepting deposits for our litter early. The reason we are accepting deposits for Gracie's first litter is we are not yet an established breeder, we want to make sure that our puppies have loving homes waiting for them before we assist bringing them into this world. We imagine for someone who is not yet an established breeder it is not easy to find a litter of puppies homes in just a couple short months while the pups are growing up especially if the Mommy may have 10 + puppies in one litter. When we bought our dogs we were also on a very long waiting list as well and think it was well worth the wait to us. We have already accepted deposits for her litter and plan to continue doing so. The last thing we want it a bunch of puppies we are assisting bring into the world without enough loving forever homes for them waiting. That is why we opened our reservations list early. Maybe years down the road if we have people knocking at our door for a puppy wanting to get in line at that time we can open it when the litter is born. We have to do what we believe is right and think it is appropriate. We will be refunding 100% of deposits if for some reason the litter does not take place (i.e. she does not pass her final health clearances, etc.) Waiting for a puppy may not be the right choice for some and they are free look elsewhere. We are interested in finding the best forever pet homes possible for puppies and are very clear with everyone interested the reasoning behind us accepting early deposits.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

I am very happy to be able to join this board. There is so much information here I did not know about. Thank you.


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## Kevinsmom (Jul 26, 2011)

Thank you everyone. I am glad to hear maybe it isn’t as bad as it first seemed. My friend’s co-workers had mentioned to her that the breeder says on her site they bought a new house and are moving the first of the year and they thought maybe that is why they are trying to get deposit money right now. Even to non dog people it sounded strange, especially since it wasn’t from a top breeder that has an established breeding program. I hate thinking the worst but there are a lot of scammers you run across when searching for a puppy and it seems my friend is running into even more of these when looking for the english style ones. I wanted to put it out here to get opinions because you guys were so helpful when I was looking for a puppy. We found a fabulous breeder and are on her waiting list but when we offered a deposit she wouldn’t take it because she wanted to make sure there would be a puppy for us first. I think if someone took a deposit and kept it for 9 months and then returned it because there wasn’t a puppy for us I would want interest on my money! I still have a problem with that but I guess if it works for them. If it is a new breeder trying to do the right thing this may have the opposite intended effect. There are so many nice dogs and breeders out there with an established reputation they may be only left with people silly enough to throw money at something they have no idea if or what the puppies will be like. It does seem this breeder is willing to learn and do the right thing but I still think I will help my friend look at other options. Thanks again, Dee


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## Kevinsmom (Jul 26, 2011)

Youhaloo, 
Very sorry, I just saw you joined and posted. We must have been typing at the same time. I wanted to respond this morning to everyone that has offered help and your post must have crossed with mine. I had no ill intent, just trying to help a friend. 
Dee


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

*early deposits*

We will only breed if Gracie passes all of her health clearances (and yes after 2 years of age) (we also will do genetic testing as well through Optigen) and for people who don't want to wait for a puppy they don't need to of course they are free to look elsewhere and find a puppy sooner. We are interested in improving this breed we love, we work with our dogs extensively (as therapy and in the show ring) and want to make sure that our future puppies have the best possible homes waiting for them. We are clear upfront that our waiting list is long and it is not a for sure thing. Everyone who has put a deposit down knows this and is fine with it and of course we will refund 100% of deposits if for some reason our planned litter does not take place. Gracie (our female) turns 2 years old in 6 months from now on June 14. For some it may be the right thing for others not and that is just fine. We are moving into our new home in just a few weeks relocating to northern CA. I do need a good mentor to help us get started - everyone has to start somewhere! We are trying to be responsible finding forever homes ahead of time so we are not in a position with 10+ possible puppies at the last minute placing in just any homes we can find - we want our puppies in the best possible homes and believe we are doing the right thing.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

That is laudable--I think the issue many are having is with taking money without knowing if there will be pups or not. Yes, people can back out on you without that cash in hand, but if they decide to go elsewhere or that you do not have the "right" pup for them then you have the hassle of getting that money back to them, etc. I am a relatively new breeder as well--I have had three litters, but have had Goldens since 1995. Word of mouth and referrals from experienced, established breeders, and meeting people looking for a pup at dog events (shows, hunt tests) have been my best tools for placing pups.

One of the best things I have found for making those connections is being a member of an active regional golden club. You can meet experienced people who can mentor you, and you are out there walking the walk, so to speak, to prove that you do have the best interests of the breed at heart. Yes, with European dogs you are going to get trash talk from some people, but it comes with the territory, no matter what style of Golden you have! There is so much about the various bloodlines that you will only learn once you have proven your commitment by putting the time in--it is frustrating to put the time and effort into mentoring someone and have them either ignore the advice, or drop out of the breed shortly thereafter--and that is why it can be difficult to find a mentor. That, and the area you are in has so many of the opportunistic breeders, that I know many of the reputable California breeders who have European/UK lines are a bit gunshy.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

I don't really see the benefit of taking money if it is completely refundable. What we do, and we are very small and occasionally we have a big litter (most of the time not so much). We have a puppy application that is very long, and we just have them fill it out; give them our contract to look at and if we like their application; they go on the list. I tell them how many people are on the list, and everyone is free to look for a puppy sooner or what not, and most often I help them with that. Just recently we had 7 families lined up before our litter was bred, a month after the breeding there is one puppy showing on ultra-sound, 3 decided to stay on our list for a summer litter (possible litter) and the other 4 got help from me looking for breeders that had litters turn out with more puppies. We don't take deposits till 5 weeks, and puppies are chosen at 7.5 weeks after evaluations. Do you have an application? Because that is the best way to get good homes, most certainly not money.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Everyone's opinion is sure to be different, that is okay, for us it is the right thing knowing we have loving homes waiting for our future puppies. Yes I also have a puppy application as well and I call all references.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I was hesitant to comment on the thread... but one thing I was thinking about, especially knowing that the breeder is new, is that sometimes anticipating 10+ puppies and taking money for that many can put you in an awkward position if your dog has less puppies than that. Even if you are just putting the money in the bank and holding until everything is definite. 

I have a friend over in Australia who did the same exact thing - taking names and deposits early. Her female only had three puppies, and she herself decided to keep one of the puppies. So she had a lot of disappointed people she had call up. In her case she spent some of the money, so it put her in an even more awkward position than possibly you are getting into.

The next time she bred, she had a list of people early on but didn't actually get out contracts and take money until after she was more certain how many puppies she would have. 

I would not have a problem getting on a list very early though. I'm sure it eases your concerns going into the breeding.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

I am not taking deposits for that many puppies only for the first 3 females and 3 males of the litter.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

If there are not enough puppies in the litter for reservations taken I will be able to refer the others to experienced breeder I know that may also have puppies available
we are only accepting deposits for 3 females and 3 males for the litter (not 10+ puppies) until they are actually born.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Also, NONE of the deposits will be spent until the puppies are actually placed into their new homes.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

We are planning this litter to improve the breed, that is our sole reason for getting into breeding. I do therapy work and our boy Asti is a Delta Society therapy dog. I also show my dogs. I work part-time in photography from home and I am home full time with our dogs. My husband provides for us financially we are not breeding to make any money. We have Dog Health Insurance plans for both of our dogs and we have spend more money on them than we ever could have returned on them already and that is how it should be. We imported Gracie from Thevenet kennels in Spain for a very specific reason to find a suitable mate/stud for her to improve this breed and continue our therapy and show work. In my opinion, it is our responsibility to breed healthy dogs who pass all of their health clearances that is the most important thing (we also will be completing the Optigen DNA testing as well) We have opened our reservations and are taking 3 female and 3 male reservations until the litter is actually born. We want to ensure our puppies have loving forever homes waiting for them ahead of time that is the reason we have opened our reservations early. We are new at this and everyone has to start somewhere. We want to make sure our puppies have the best homes possible waiting for them. Gracie turns 2 on June 14 and will have all of her health clearances after she is 2 years. If for some reason the litter doet not take place, deposits will be refunded and the prospective puppy owners will be referred to another experienced breeder that I kwow. All people on our reservations know this information ahead of time, I talk to them in length and also check all of their references. If someone does not want to wait for a puppy it is fortunate they can of course look elsewhere. For some, it is the right option. I know for us it was, we waited on the reservations list for over one year to have first pick male. He was well worth the wait!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Having had people excitedly asking me to "put them on my list" when I find out one of my girls is pregnant, only to call them when the litter is born and have them say,"Oh we got a puppy elsewhere," I can see the point in taking deposits ahead of time. However, I have been there when the bitch has reabsorbed all but one puppy to have that puppy die in utero one week before its' due date. And then to tell all waiting that there will be no puppies.. And I have gone from a litter of 10 in 2010 to a litter of 3 in 2011. I have had people back out at the last minute and I have decided against prospective owners at the last minute. Breeding puppies is very tricky... I will also comment that the best dog to breed your bitch to is not necessarily the dog that you own.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

I have been there too we were on the waiting list for a female and the mother had only 4 males in the litter and no females. We looked elsewhere and found our beautiful Gracie girl. She was worth the wait as well. We are looking at a Stud for Gracie's litter (not our male we own). Everyone's opinion is sure to be different, that is okay, for us it is the right thing knowing we have loving homes waiting for our future puppies. Yes I also have a puppy application as well and I call all references.


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## My Big Kahuna (Dec 14, 2011)

I can see a waiting list, but I'd wait on that deposit.... The fact that she DOESN'T have health clearances concerns me... They're a requirement for me cuz I've HAD a golden that was from a backyard breeder (before I knew better and he was my soul mate) and let me tell you, falling in love with a dog only to put him down younger than you should is the most heart breaking experience... I'm sure you can find a breeder close to you that offers health certs for all their dogs and registers them... You can look on the AKC's website for lists of breeders... Hope this helps and good luck!!!!! There's no love like golden love!!!!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Knowing that that the deposits are refundable if an available pup can't be had, then it seems reasonable.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> I will also comment that the best dog to breed your bitch to is not necessarily the dog that you own.


I will say just to add to this is that she is no longer planning to use the dog that she has.... You may have missed earlier as I think it might be buried in my original comment but the plan at this point is to use my puppy that I co-own with her girl. I can tell you that I absolutely would not allow anyone that I didnt think was going to breed responsibly to use him. He will be two in April and will have clearances done at that point. I think her original plan was to use her boy and she has not updated her website on that end simply because we were still in discussion but at this point her plan is to use my boy provided he gets all of his clearances and her girl clears on all clearances.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

My Big Kahuna said:


> The fact that she DOESN'T have health clearances concerns me...


She has made it clear _over and over_ that she will not breed her female until she is 2 years old and passes _all_ _clearances_. Also, whatever stud she uses will have to have all his clearances, too.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Yes of course any stud we use will pass health clearances as well.


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## My Big Kahuna (Dec 14, 2011)

kwhit said:


> She has made it clear _over and over_ that she will not breed her female until she is 2 years old and passes all _clearances_. Also, whatever stud she uses will have to have all his clearances, too.


Sorry I didn't read all of the comments, just replying to the initial post.... Here for fun.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Yes that is correct thank you!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Youhaloo, welcome to the board! :wavey:

I hope we get to know you better and I hope you do not feel offended by the questioning on this thread. As you must already know that there are a lot of people out there that think they can just breed any two dogs, and sometimes these threads can get a bit heated. It is all in the love of protecting the breed.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Yes I do know that. Of course many have much to say when they don't know someone yet. I can say and do know we are getting into breeding and have our planned breeding with Gracie girl (International/National Junghund Champion Thevenet Amazing Grace) for the right reasons to work towards improving this breed. We only have two dogs and know it will take a lot of work and time to get started. I show our dogs myself and also work with them in Therapy work. Everyone must start somewhere and I am thankful for those that have offered to help mentor me. We are very excited about our upcoming litter in 2012 and will only breed healthy dogs that pass all health clearances, including DNA genetic testing as well, I believe more responsible breeders should be doing. Thanks again!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

As a novice in the breed it’s not always easy to figure out the best thing to do even if you are trying to do everything right. I have been in situations where I’ve tried to figure out the right way to handle something with my dogs (with showing, puppies, pedigrees, etc etc) and everyone certainly has an opinion, but I don’t think there’s always one right way to do things. It's always easy to judge when you’re not in the situation. I tend to be overly cautious as well, and would probably be nervous about not having homes lined up for puppies if we were planning a breeding down the road …so I can understand that. I do have local wonderful mentors, so I’ve been lucky, but it is definitely commendable for you to be doing things in the best interests of the dogs. I hope you find some mentors and friends in the breed in your new city. I know a number of people in the NorCal GR club and I would highly recommend getting involved in the club!


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Thank you, I know that. I do have someone that agreed to help mentor me, I really need and appreciate the support. Everyone new must start somewhere. I will be active in the NorCal golden retriever club. We move into our new home in 3 weeks from today. As long as I can fall asleep at night knowing I am doing the right thing well that is the right thing for us. Both my husband and I love this breed and our dogs they are part of our family. We are committed to doing everything possible to improve the breed we love so much and to breed only healthy dogs who pass all health clearances that will give the best chance of producing healthy puppies.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Shalva said:


> I will say just to add to this is that she is no longer planning to use the dog that she has.... You may have missed earlier as I think it might be buried in my original comment but the plan at this point is to use my puppy that I co-own with her girl. I can tell you that I absolutely would not allow anyone that I didnt think was going to breed responsibly to use him. He will be two in April and will have clearances done at that point. I think her original plan was to use her boy and she has not updated her website on that end simply because we were still in discussion but at this point her plan is to use my boy provided he gets all of his clearances and her girl clears on all clearances.


This is why I commented at all...  Otherwise, I would have still been dwelling about somebody with dollar signs on the brain taking deposits and talking up a breeding that hasn't happened yet w/regards to a couple of dogs who are not breeding quality. There was another member who did the same and caused some consternation with people because of their way of handling issues that popped up with the two intended breeding dogs. That obviously was not the case here.

The thing about the deposits... I don't even really think it is a huge issue - as a puppy buyer. If you aren't spending the money and it will go back to the buyers, no questions asked or deductions made. And as long as you make these people fully aware that they are paying for the waiting list and not technically a puppy. When you consider all of the flakes selling "english cremes", I would not think twice about getting on a waiting list with somebody who is following the rules.

As I said, my friend was extremely new to breeding (she had a CH on her lab, etc) and she thought she had a lot of puppies to sell. When the ultrasound only showed 3 pups towards the end of the pregnancy, it put her into a panic and of course there was her reputation.


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## goldparent (Aug 16, 2009)

I guess my main concern is the “this is how we choose to do it so there-if you don’t like it go somewhere else” attitude instead of taking what others are expressing as concerns and reevaluating your procedure or seeing some validity in their concerns. Being a successful ethical breeder is far more than just breeding two dogs with health clearances. I would encourage you to build more relationships with established reputable breeders and open yourself up to feedback.
You have to understand that when you choose to do things outside the established norm (your right to do) you will tend to isolate yourself instead of ingratiating yourself to the established golden retriever community.
What I have learned from hanging around with golden breeder friends (I am not a breeder) is that just because you can get away with something doesn’t make it right. A breeder is faced with ethical choices every day and just because someone is willing to place a considerable amount of money down on the hype of a yet to be bred litter doesn’t mean it is right for that breeder to take their money. 
I think breeders have a duty to protect the breed (I won’t even go into the arrogance of new breeders who are going to save the breed or “improve” the breed) but breeders should also educate and protect the general public. Puppy buying for families is an emotional event, especially when children are involved and often leaves families open to being taken advantage of, sometimes unintentionally. Puppy buyers often sign contracts, agree to terms, buy unsuitable puppies, pay more then fair market value, make large deposits, or succumb to marketing of extra special/extra ordinary dogs without full knowledge. This is not always their fault; it is the people who will take advantage that people are generally uneducated about buying a puppy. 

If your breeding is right for them won’t it still be right for them if they stick around for 9 months without a tie down of money? If they have the freedom to move on and do then it wasn’t right for both sides. Things change drastically in that amount of time and if they are held to a litter financially/emotionally they may not feel they have the freedom to change. Yes I know you said you would refund their money but there is more involved than just money. You are also stuck if a better match comes along and you wouldn’t (shouldn’t) have the option of dumping earlier depositors for them. As someone said you are really holding them hostage! In the end this system is set up for lots of disappointment on both sides. 

If you produce a good quality puppy and network enough the buyers will come. You certainly have been doing enough marketing I doubt you would ever be without buyers. If you spent time getting to know reputable breeders and show people you would have the connections to maybe attract a better quality buyer and also grow as a golden person and a breeder. A win win for everyone. 
Sara


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

goldparent said:


> I guess my main concern is the “this is how we choose to do it so there-if you don’t like it go somewhere else” attitude instead of taking what others are expressing as concerns and reevaluating your procedure or seeing some validity in their concerns. Being a successful ethical breeder is far more than just breeding two dogs with health clearances. I would encourage you to build more relationships with established reputable breeders and open yourself up to feedback.
> You have to understand that when you choose to do things outside the established norm (your right to do) you will tend to isolate yourself instead of ingratiating yourself to the established golden retriever community.
> What I have learned from hanging around with golden breeder friends (I am not a breeder) is that just because you can get away with something doesn’t make it right. A breeder is faced with ethical choices every day and just because someone is willing to place a considerable amount of money down on the hype of a yet to be bred litter doesn’t mean it is right for that breeder to take their money.
> I think breeders have a duty to protect the breed (I won’t even go into the arrogance of new breeders who are going to “improve” the breed) but breeders should also educate and protect the general public. Puppy buying for families is an emotional event, especially when children are involved and often leaves families open to being taken advantage of, sometimes unintentionally. Puppy buyers often sign contracts, agree to terms, buy unsuitable puppies, pay more then fair market value, make large deposits, or succumb to marketing of extra special/extra ordinary dogs without full knowledge. This is not always their fault; it is the people who will take advantage that people are generally uneducated about buying a puppy.
> ...



I am going to jump in here as a responsible breeder and say that there is nothing arrogant about someone breeding to better the breed... EVERY breeder new or old should be breeding with the goal of bettering and improving the breed there is absolutely no other reason to breed. Whether that be physically bettering the breeder or medically healthwise bettering the breed. 

Second... while I don't necessarily agree with taking deposits this far in advance, the deposits she is taking are 100% refundable... to me ... if they are fully refundable then taking the deposit doesnt make sense as it doesn't accomplish what she is trying to accomplish but as a new breeder who doesn't have the intense network of some long time breeders it is nerve wracking to think about having a litter where you might have puppies left at 10 or 12 weeks. As I stated earlier I do believe that the goal here is to separate the men from the boys so to speak and while I am not sure that I think the deposits accomplish that when they are fully refundable, I can understand why she is doing that. I understand your point and I do agree with you but as a new breeder it is nerve wracking to wait. I can tell you that I did take deposits my first litter very much like this breeder is doing and after that I stopped because I do agree... that someone is going to either wait for a puppy from me because they want a puppy from me or not. BUT for that first litter it is scary. 

Let me also add that the breeder has worked very hard at getting the advice of other breeders who are established and reputable. I suggested that she join this forum in part so she could connect and talk to other reputable breeders as there are several on this board and she has done that. I have also connected her with other reputable breeders who she can get advice and assistance from while she continues to establish herself... 

there is alot that established breeders have learned through mentorship but also making their own way and trial and error... while I don't think that a deposit is a good idea until puppies are born and healthy I understand why one might take a deposit especially a refundable one. 

I personally do not take deposits... I used to but in the end I agree with your points about deposits but that is just me and the reasons I don't take them... however, there are many reputable responsible breeders that do... 

its a personal thing and she may decide to do things differently as she goes... its a learning process... 

but I don't think there is anything arrogant at all about breeding to better the breed, in my mind there is NO other reason to be breeding 
S


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I can’t get past the animosity some people have towards new people in the breed. I’m fairly new to goldens and conformation and have yet to face this attitude in person (interestingly enough) but on this forum it tends to happen quite frequently. Everyone has to start somewhere and I certainly hope her goal is to improve the breed or at least improve on what she has.That should be every breeder's goal, IMO.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

The deposit situation aside, I think it's exciting to see a new golden retriever breeder go through the correct avenues to begin her/his breeding program. Kudos to you.


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## goldparent (Aug 16, 2009)

Shalva
I do think breeding is a learning experience and never black and white and I don’t think there is anything wrong with making choices and learning if you don’t hurt or take advantage of people in the process. The attitude is what I had a problem with and perhaps it is because some of us have seen her posting about her “breeding program” in other places since she first purchased the puppies and it was always about what a “perfect” breeder she would be and she would do everything right (like no one else does)that finally just rubbed me the wrong way. You are of course right and it is great she has joined and maybe will be open to feedback and guidance. 
Sara


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Shalva, you said everything I would have like to say. Thank you. We do appreciate your support and mentorship very much. We will continue to do what we believe is best for our dogs and also our goal which is to work towards improving this breed - and we do greatly value the support and experience that our breeders and also other more experienced breeder we know and respect give to us.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

I have never claimed to know everything and I never would claim such a thing. We are learning and growing just like everybody else.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

I can’t get past the animosity some people have towards new people in the breed. I’m fairly new to goldens and conformation and have yet to face this attitude in person (interestingly enough) but on this forum it tends to happen quite frequently. Everyone has to start somewhere and I certainly hope her goal is to improve the breed or at least improve on what she has.That should be every breeder's goal, IMO.

__________________
*Michelle, Jack and Chloe*​

_____________________________________________________________

Thank you, Michelle, Jack and Chloe, ... that is entirely our goal.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

goldparent said:


> Shalva
> I do think breeding is a learning experience and never black and white and I don’t think there is anything wrong with making choices and learning if you don’t hurt or take advantage of people in the process. The attitude is what I had a problem with and perhaps it is because some of us have seen her posting about her “breeding program” in other places since she first purchased the puppies and it was always about what a “perfect” breeder she would be and she would do everything right (like no one else does)that finally just rubbed me the wrong way. You are of course right and it is great she has joined and maybe will be open to feedback and guidance.
> Sara


I get what you are saying and I have not seen the postings in other places... I do think that being idealistic can be a bit annoying... (shoot I work wiht college students) and polishing ones own halo is never a good thing ... but I do think that if you start off jaded you will only go downhill from there. Starting off idealistic with a plan and a vision of how you want to do this then you get more realistic as you go. 

I am not the one that is usually defending breeders but I do think that you have to start out being idealistic and then realism comes later... and learning your way. Like I said I do think that there are things I would do differently than how she is doing them... but there are things that I will do differently at my next litter than what I did in my last litter... 

Hopefully she will learn and evolve but I do think that her heart is in the right place.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

I get what you are saying and I have not seen the postings in other places... I do think that being idealistic can be a bit annoying... (shoot I work wiht college students) and polishing ones own halo is never a good thing ... but I do think that if you start off jaded you will only go downhill from there. Starting off idealistic with a plan and a vision of how you want to do this then you get more realistic as you go. 

I am not the one that is usually defending breeders but I do think that you have to start out being idealistic and then realism comes later... and learning your way. Like I said I do think that there are things I would do differently than how she is doing them... but there are things that I will do differently at my next litter than what I did in my last litter... 

Hopefully she will learn and evolve but I do think that her heart is in the right place. 
__________________
Shalva and the Milbrose Retrievers
Milbrose Retrievers

_______________________________________________________________________


Thank you Shalva, 

Our hearts are in the right place and we are open to learning and growing. We only have the best intentions in mind with our dogs and any puppies we may assist to bring into this world. We appreciate responsible breeders like you who are willing to offer support, wisdom and encouragement to us. I have a facebook page and that is the only place I post photos or advertise my website for my dogs and my photography work - no where else. I work from home in photography and work with our two dogs full time. They are part of our family and we love them.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Shalva said:


> I get what you are saying and I have not seen the postings in other places... I do think that being idealistic can be a bit annoying... (shoot I work wiht college students) and polishing ones own halo is never a good thing ... but I do think that if you start off jaded you will only go downhill from there. Starting off idealistic with a plan and a vision of how you want to do this then you get more realistic as you go.
> 
> I am not the one that is usually defending breeders but I do think that you have to start out being idealistic and then realism comes later... and learning your way. Like I said I do think that there are things I would do differently than how she is doing them... but there are things that I will do differently at my next litter than what I did in my last litter...
> 
> Hopefully she will learn and evolve but I do think that her heart is in the right place.


Thank you Shalva, 

Our hearts are in the right place and we are open to learning and growing. We only have the best intentions in mind with our dogs and any puppies we may assist to bring into this world. We appreciate responsible breeders like you who are willing to offer support, wisdom and encouragement to us. I have a facebook page and that is the only place I post photos or advertise my website for my dogs and my photography work - no where else. I work from home in photography and work with our two dogs full time. They are part of our family and we love them.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I only read Pg 1 of this thread and then looked at the Somerset website. Just kindof wondering who the two very cute puppies are that the lady is holding in all the photos. If Asti and Gracie haven't been bred before, are the pups Asti and Gracie when they were puppies.
And as attractive as the lady is who is holding the pups, seeing so many closeup smiling photos of her was a bit too much......


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

lgnutah said:


> I only read Pg 1 of this thread and then looked at the Somerset website. Just kindof wondering who the two very cute puppies are that the lady is holding in all the photos. If Asti and Gracie haven't been bred before, are the pups Asti and Gracie when they were puppies.
> And as attractive as the lady is who is holding the pups, seeing so many closeup smiling photos of her was a bit too much......


Thank you, those pictures are of me (and I am a photographer) which is the reason there are so many photos on our website. The two puppies you are referring to are of our boy Asti and his littermate brother - it was taken while we were visiting the puppies when they were little.


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## Visitador (Aug 12, 2011)

I have also only seen the first page and then jumped to the last page here. My puppy's breeder took a deposit only after confirming there was a pregnancy.
A puppy is not like an airplane, where the manufacturer can schedule production with certainty. Nine months is a long time. What happens if the financial/personal situation of the breeder and potential owner change? What happens if there are changes to the sire and dam? Is the money put on an escrow account? Just too many variables.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I think some of the animosity comes from getting a dog/bitch and then deciding puppies are next... Me personally, I was involved in showing dogs in obedience for 7 years and then deciding, well, maybe we will have pups. From the time I started showing goldens in obedience until the time I had a litter, it was 12 years. What I learned and what I know is so many years in the making.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

youhaloo said:


> I am not taking deposits for that many puppies only for the first 3 females and 3 males of the litter.


That's some optimism..  Its not bad, I just would hate to see your hopes get dashed. Some females just don't have big litters, and when using AI the first time (as I assume you will), timing is sooo tricky, especially on the first breeding of a bitch and you have no idea how long she ovulates. We missed twice the first times we tried AI. Even this last time we used a reproductive vet to help with the timing and did a ton of P-tests and still got one puppy. Our natural breeding with this bitch, we got 9. Since the litter was so small we are trying one last time, and are going for the surgical implantation...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Goldenjackpuppy, IMO, the reason you don't get the animosity is that, you decided to show your dogs, first, and see what happens later. You did not come here saying, "I want to breed my dog"... that is tough for everyone who agonizes over breeding a dog....


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Sally's Mom said:


> Goldenjackpuppy, IMO, the reason you don't get the animosity is that, you decided to show your dogs, first, and see what happens later. You did not come here saying, "I want to breed my dog"... that is tough for everyone who agonizes over breeding a dog....


That's fair. I don't respond very well to the "I want to breed dogs" idea either, but I do think everyone has to start somewhere. And based on my quick review of her website it looks like she is showing her dogs, waiting for health clearances, making sure her dogs have correct temperament and, generally, trying to do things "right."

But if we're being fair I feel compelled to point out that she didn't come on here saying that. The OP posted her website.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

kdowningxc said:


> That's some optimism..  Its not bad, I just would hate to see your hopes get dashed. Some females just don't have big litters, and when using AI the first time (as I assume you will), timing is sooo tricky, especially on the first breeding of a bitch and you have no idea how long she ovulates. We missed twice the first times we tried AI. Even this last time we used a reproductive vet to help with the timing and did a ton of P-tests and still got one puppy. Our natural breeding with this bitch, we got 9. Since the litter was so small we are trying one last time, and are going for the surgical implantation...


We are considering using a Stud locally who was imported and will be a natural breeding. His breeder is helping mentor us as well. We hope for the best and yes our deposit will be fully refundable


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I agree(goldenjackpuppy)... but part of me says, when you advertise "English Goldens" what are you aiming for?


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> That's fair. I don't respond very well to the "I want to breed dogs" idea either, but I do think everyone has to start somewhere. And based on my quick review of her website it looks like she is showing her dogs, waiting for health clearances, making sure her dogs have correct temperament and, generally, trying to do things "right."


Yes, I do show my dogs myself and also I do therapy work through Delta Society as well. We will make sure all health clearances are done (after 2 years of age) on our female (and the stud) including DNA testing through Opitgen for all available dna test. Thank you.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Yes, everyone has to start somewhere...


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> I agree(goldenjackpuppy)... but part of me says, when you advertise "English Goldens" what are you aiming for?


 
Our dogs are of European bloodlines we are working toward improving this breed we love


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

So call them European Goldens, not English? Remember dogs from the UK come in all colors!


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> So call them European Goldens, not English? Remember dogs from the UK come in all colors!


isn't this a bit playing semantics.. most folks recognize that the term english goldens covers european dogs especially considering that while the dogs may be from spain or portugal they almost all consistently go back to UK pedigrees very close in the pedigrees with many of the spanish and portuguese dogs being imported themselves from the UK....and yes they do come in all colors but I don't recall her saying anywhere that she was breeding for color.... 

I would also like to point out that while her website talks about using european pedigrees she is not advertising english/european dogs on her website

I have said this before and will say it again but there appears to always be a great deal of animosity towards folks who have UK dogs whether it is meant to be like that or not it is how it feels... I have experienced that myself. Here we have a new breeder who is showing her dogs, doing the clearances, has mentors went and imported some very nice pedigrees and she is stil lgetting grief and honestly I think she has done a very good job responding and tolerating the comments... 

When I got Natalie the wolfhound I got a bitch that I could breed... will I breed her who knows but is it in the back of my mind sure.... 

this breeder went and got a couple of dogs that she could show and breed... it took her several years to find dogs that would fit the bill that she could show and breed. She did her research, these were not her first dogs ever... she had goldens for a long time prior to that and when it came to adding to the family she was without dogs for a few years until she could find the right dogs from the right breeder and honestly the pedigrees are quite nice....


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

To differentiate yourself from the people who aren't knowledgeable about breeding, you want to be sure to use the "approved" terminology. You can find a wealth of information in the various threads on this forum where breeding issues are discussed. Good luck.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Well I am not an "English Golden" expert, but don't people get persnickety here when "English" is lumped with European? I do not want to pick a fight, but, what is the difference between a dog from Europe and a dog fromSerbia (or some European country) called European?


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Shalva said:


> isn't this a bit playing semantics.. most folks recognize that the term english goldens covers european dogs especially considering that while the dogs may be from spain or portugal they almost all consistently go back to UK pedigrees....and yes they do come in all colors but I don't recall her saying anywhere that she was breeding for color....


 
Shalva, Thank you. We imported Gracie who is of European bloodlines she happens to be cream color. We are not breeding for color.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

lgnutah said:


> To differentiate yourself from the people who aren't knowledgeable about breeding, you want to be sure to use the "approved" terminology. You can find a wealth of information in the various threads on this forum where breeding issues are discussed. Good luck.


Thank you, I will check into it.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

lgnutah said:


> To differentiate yourself from the people who aren't knowledgeable about breeding, you want to be sure to use the "approved" terminology. You can find a wealth of information in the various threads on this forum where breeding issues are discussed. Good luck.


Thank you, I will look into it and appreciate the tip!


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Shalva said:


> isn't this a bit playing semantics.. most folks recognize that the term english goldens covers european dogs especially considering that while the dogs may be from spain or portugal they almost all consistently go back to UK pedigrees very close in the pedigrees with many of the spanish and portuguese dogs being imported themselves from the UK....and yes they do come in all colors but I don't recall her saying anywhere that she was breeding for color....
> 
> I would also like to point out that while her website talks about using european pedigrees she is not advertising english/european dogs on her website
> 
> ...


Thank you Shalva, you said everything I would like to have said again  I appreciate your support and appreciate your mentorship and we always open to learning more about the breed, we love our dogs and this breed, I will repeat this again that everyone has to start somewhere and we did a lot of waiting and research before we bought our dogs. I work with them full time and we are involved in therapy work through Delta Society and I do show them as well. We will only breed healthy dogs that pass all health clearanes including genetic tests and will find the best possible match available for each of our dogs prior to breeding. I look forward to learning from this forum and hope we gain a lot of useful information!


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> Well I am not an "English Golden" expert, but don't people get persnickety here when "English" is lumped with European? I do not want to pick a fight, but, what is the difference between a dog from Europe and a dog fromSerbia (or some European country) called European?


There is definitely a problem with some of the Eastern European countries and irresponsible breeders importing pups from these countries I agree... it is concerning... and yes some do get persnickety about it especially with these dogs from eastern europe... Serbia etc. where there is little consistency and ability to verify .... and I am not sure what the answer is... but these questions are hard for a new person to answer and is certainly a question that has to be discussed and answered by the bigger community than one new breeder. 

should we be differentiated between dogs with primarily UK pedigrees and dogs with eastern european pedigrees (which seems to be the biggest problem) maybe .... but if we are talking about traits other than color and reading the Bev Brown article it seems like most folks are comfortable with the term "English" golden to describe those variations between the UK dogs and the American style dogs... 

I know that I refer to my portuguese import as an English style Golden and only fully go into his background when I am discussing his pedigree in greater detail. 

My Bing and Connies sire is an Austrian import that again most often its just easier to refer to them as "English" as those are the style traits that we are talking about... what about second generation dogs... my Kaelyn is from Canada but both her parents are UK imports... a dog I bred her to is born here but his sire is a French import that goes back to UK lines. So Bing, Connie and Emmett were born here in the states but does that make them American goldens... well anyone who looks at them would say no ... I think the word English for better or worse has come to represent a style of dog.... and is less about country of origin 
should that change... maybe... I don't know


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Shalva said:


> There is definitely a problem with some of the Eastern European countries and irresponsible breeders importing pups from these countries I agree... it is concerning... and yes some do get persnickety about it especially with these dogs from eastern europe... Serbia etc. where there is little consistency and ability to verify .... and I am not sure what the answer is... but these questions are hard for a new person to answer and is certainly a question that has to be discussed and answered by the bigger community than one new breeder.
> 
> should we be differentiated between dogs with primarily UK pedigrees and dogs with eastern european pedigrees (which seems to be the biggest problem) maybe .... but if we are talking about traits other than color and reading the Bev Brown article it seems like most folks are comfortable with the term "English" golden to describe those variations between the UK dogs and the American style dogs...
> 
> ...


Well said, I agree


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I am just trying to understand...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And I guess my thought is call them European Goldens not English Goldens....


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> I am just trying to understand...


I get that.... no worries.... 

it just seems that the term "English Golden" has come to represent a style of dog rather than a country of origin... 

Personally I just want to call them Golden Retrievers.... and have people recognize that there are variations in style in dogs but that they are still just plain old Golden Retrievers....


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Shalva said:


> I get that.... no worries....
> 
> it just seems that the term "English Golden" has come to represent a style of dog rather than a country of origin...
> 
> Personally I just want to call them Golden Retrievers.... and have people recognize that there are variations in style in dogs but that they are still just plain old Golden Retrievers....


 
Yes, yes, yes! (says me with my melting pot Goldens....)


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## goldparent (Aug 16, 2009)

I am still uncomfortable with a breeder with no experience/reputation accepting money that far out for a litter when it only benefits them. I think that was the original point of the post. It may not be the case here but there are too many fly by night breeders who do this I would think if you want to be seen as reputable you wouldn’t want to be clumped in with them. 

I also would rather see someone with more breed experience breeding then just breeding a dog when they turn two because you can. What would be wrong with showing them more and waiting a little? Do you know most golden health issues develop beyond 2 years old? Maybe taking some time to show them more will give you the knowledge base to be the kind of breeder you are aspiring to be. The International shows (IABCA) these dogs were shown in everyone gets a title in a weekend and there is often no competition so I think it would be hard to learn about the breed that way. Maybe show in more reputable organizations or maybe do obedience or agility and join clubs to learn. Competition is the key to learning in dogs and right now it seems the shows and therapy work really haven’t exposed you to unbiased comparing your goldens to others to see if you really will be “improving” the breed. You still seem to be in the “pet owner” mode of “my dogs are the greatest so I should breed them” (and maybe they are). I don’t understand why everyone is in such a rush to be a breeder. Everything seems to be about if I do health clearances I can breed my dogs. That is a good step but there is more beyond that to be a good breeder. 

Sara


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

goldparent said:


> I am still uncomfortable with a breeder with no experience/reputation accepting money that far out for a litter when it only benefits them. I think that was the original point of the post. It may not be the case here but there are too many fly by night breeders who do this I would think if you want to be seen as reputable you wouldn’t want to be clumped in with them.
> 
> I also would rather see someone with more breed experience breeding then just breeding a dog when they turn two because you can. What would be wrong with showing them more and waiting a little? Do you know most golden health issues develop beyond 2 years old? Maybe taking some time to show them more will give you the knowledge base to be the kind of breeder you are aspiring to be. The International shows (IABCA) these dogs were shown in everyone gets a title in a weekend and there is often no competition so I think it would be hard to learn about the breed that way. Maybe show in more reputable organizations or maybe do obedience or agility and join clubs to learn. Competition is the key to learning in dogs and right now it seems the shows and therapy work really haven’t exposed you to unbiased comparing your goldens to others to see if you really will be “improving” the breed. You still seem to be in the “pet owner” mode of “my dogs are the greatest so I should breed them” (and maybe they are). I don’t understand why everyone is in such a rush to be a breeder. Everything seems to be about if I do health clearances I can breed my dogs. That is a good step but there is more beyond that to be a good breeder.
> 
> Sara


I honestly think your comments are better directed at the multitude of backyard breeders out there... Not someone who is showing, doing clearances, has mentors, researched... and is trying to do it right... 

Ya know what ... the breed NEEDS MORE RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS.... the fact is that me and tahnee and sterre and sungold and sallys and liberty, arcane, pointgold etc etc can't possibly meet the demand for golden retrievers. We need responsible breeders. Now anyone who knows me knows that I am the first one to slam the irresponsible... I have no time or patience for them and will totally refuse to help them become better backyard breeders.... 

But this is a case where you seem to be harping on someone for trying to do it right... someone who is making an attempt to do it right... if not perfect... they are trying to learn.... they are showing their dogs, they are doing therapy work with their dogs, they are doing clearances, they researched their dogs (and I have stated repeatedly that the pedigrees are very nice) they have mentors, they are here taking the heat... their deposit is totally refundable... what else do you want them to do???? because honestly at this point it just seems to be harping and nit picking.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

goldparent said:


> *I also would rather see someone with more breed experience breeding then just breeding a dog when they turn two because you can.* What would be wrong with showing them more and waiting a little? *Do you know most golden health issues develop beyond 2 years old?* Maybe taking some time to show them more will give you the knowledge base to be the kind of breeder you are aspiring to be. The International shows (IABCA) these dogs were shown in everyone gets a title in a weekend and there is often no competition so I think it would be hard to learn about the breed that way. *Maybe show in more reputable organizations or maybe do obedience or agility and join clubs to learn.* Competition is the key to learning in dogs and right now it seems the shows and therapy work really haven’t exposed you to unbiased comparing your goldens to others to see if you really will be “improving” the breed. You still seem to be in the “pet owner” mode of “my dogs are the greatest so I should breed them” (and maybe they are). *I don’t understand why everyone is in such a rush to be a breeder. Everything seems to be about if I do health clearances I can breed my dogs. That is a good step but there is more beyond that to be a good breeder.*
> 
> Sara


I was going to say that I think these are valid points and I hope that people do not take offense or discard it completely. These are valid concerns that I think will come up when people look at her website or read the discussion here. I don't think that Jean (I think that's her name) should feel personally attacked... and it's unfortunate if she does. 

Then again, I *do* think it's unfortunate that she had to be introduced to us this way with her aspirations and goals being analyzed, her website critiqued... maybe these things should be handled privately. This is her reputation here.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I think she is doing a decent job. The fact is that many breeders choose to breed a girl on her first season after age 2, because it is healthier for the bitches and puppies. I used to wait until my girls were finished before breeding them-with my slow maturing lines, it often meant not breeding until age 4 or later. This led to smaller litters and sometimes misses. Her dogs do have nice pedigrees, and she has a good mentor.

I have to agree that the International titles are currently not worth much, in terms of proving how a dog measures up against the standard but right now, I think they, and UKC, are the only games in town for those with English style Goldens. Perhaps if more were shown in AKC, judges would get used to them, but that can cost a lot of money.

It would be nice to see a CCA in combination with those International titles, though. I really want to get my guys to a CCA event within the next year or so.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Ditto the CCA...but they are so few and far between.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Sally's Mom said:


> Ditto the CCA...but they are so few and far between.


Very true, unfortunately.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

We just put a CCA on our boy Emmett for just this reason... and I have suggested finding a CCA for my co-owned boy... but they are hard to find and they are not all advertised on the GRCA website... the one that I found I just happened to know the person who was running it otherwise I wouldn't have had a clue it was happening 

as far as many things that don't show up until after 2... how long do you wait... with many things not showing up until 5 or 7 or shoot 9 for some of the eye problems... should breeders wait until after the possibility of anything showing up passes...??? because if we do that... guess what... there will be no breeding happening at all. 

s


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Tahnee GR said:


> I think she is doing a decent job. The fact is that many breeders choose to breed a girl on her first season after age 2, because it is healthier for the bitches and puppies. I used to wait until my girls were finished before breeding them-with my slow maturing lines, it often meant not breeding until age 4 or later. This led to smaller litters and sometimes misses. Her dogs do have nice pedigrees, and she has a good mentor.
> 
> I have to agree that the International titles are currently not worth much, in terms of proving how a dog measures up against the standard but right now, I think they, and UKC, are the only games in town for those with English style Goldens. Perhaps if more were shown in AKC, judges would get used to them, but that can cost a lot of money.
> 
> It would be nice to see a CCA in combination with those International titles, though. I really want to get my guys to a CCA event within the next year or so.


I agree with everything here... the other option is Canada for showing... but when you live in Southern California getting to Canada is a hardship... shoot even Northern California makes Canada a long trip... and while the Canadian standard is more accepting of variations western Canada is Kirby country and the lighter colored dogs tend to have a harder time in Western Canada but do better out my way in Eastern Canada


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Shalva said:


> I agree with everything here... the other option is Canada for showing... but when you live in Southern California getting to Canada is a hardship... shoot even Northern California makes Canada a long trip... and while the Canadian standard is more accepting of variations western Canada is Kirby country and the lighter colored dogs tend to have a harder time in Western Canada but do better out my way in Eastern Canada


I would agree with Shalva here; I tend not to show my dogs to left coasters because we call it the "land of Big Red Dogs". There are a couple of western breeder judges I will give an entry to, but most of the time even in central and Eastern Canada I still pick and choose those to whom I show--mainly breeder judges, Europeans, and Australians. When I have shown AKC with my Winter it has been to the same sorts of judges--never managed to get points in the limited number of shows I did, but he was usually in the ribbons, owner-handled. 

We've been having a big discussion about style issues and the AKC ring on one of the groups I am in, sparked by the formation of the new club that ostensibly wants to become the parent club for the breed in UKC. I tend to agree with many of the posters there that we have to get the style out to those shows that have more creditbility with the mainstream clubs in order to be more accepted. Staying on the periphery with the IACBA shows etc where the title is essentially a given is not going to build that credibility. So when clubs hire judges who really know the standard and can appreciate those dogs we need to support them by bringing our dogs!! Big entries will make them think about who they hire!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My "American" style dogs have had fun in the UKC... I would hate to see the standard change to only "English" style Goldens in the UKC.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> My "American" style dogs have had fun in the UKC... I would hate to see the standard change to only "English" style Goldens in the UKC.


I don't think that is the goal.... I think however there is the potential for two categories of goldens if they get what they want... which I personally am totally against as are many reputable breeders of dogs of English style


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Two categories will cause more divergence...


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> Two categories will cause more divergence...


i agree... totally misguided... 
I would advocate for a more accepting breed standard but a breed split is not the way to go so many unforseen consequences of doing that.... just not a good idea


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Shalva said:


> I agree with everything here... the other option is Canada for showing... but when you live in Southern California getting to Canada is a hardship... shoot even Northern California makes Canada a long trip... and while the Canadian standard is more accepting of variations western Canada is Kirby country and the lighter colored dogs tend to have a harder time in Western Canada but do better out my way in Eastern Canada


This is very true... living here in Michigan, I kinda take for granted how easy it is driving over into Canada. 

But then isn't it an understood that you have to travel around to get points when you have a golden? A friend of mine had to send her golden down to Florida... and I got the idea that is a norm. 



> as far as many things that don't show up until after 2... how long do you wait... with many things not showing up until 5 or 7 or shoot 9 for some of the eye problems... should breeders wait until after the possibility of anything showing up passes...??? because if we do that... guess what... there will be no breeding happening at all.


I think the comment earlier in this thread that I somewhat agreed with concerned "ready, set, go!" breeding of dogs as soon as they cross the 24 month line and get their clearances. That's all. I do know some people who may take their time finding "boyfriends" for their females. And probably in the case of one breeder, she has a good idea of her female's faults. When she's looking a male dog to breed to, she's looking at pedigrees... but she's also looking for a dog who will make up for her females weaknesses. That's a good reason to go in for the CCA at least... <- From what I've heard from people who've done the CCA, it can be brutal actually having your dog critiqued. But at least you know what is good or not.

I completely understand what Tahnee said earlier in this thread about waiting too long with females.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Shalva said:


> II think however there is the potential for two categories of goldens if they get what they want...


That doesn't even make sense to me. Besides the allowance of cream color the breed standards are not all that different (as analyzed by Jeff Pepper on the golden discussion group on facebook). What would the categories be? How would one distinguish which category to enter since ALL golden pedigrees go back to UK pedigrees? Would it be based solely on color like labs? That seems silly and uncessary, IMO.

There are obviously judges that don't like certain styles of dogs, including certain styles of "American" goldens. Judges I won't show my dog to again because they like a longer dog, judges who think a dog has too much bone or they like a different headpiece. I could go on and on and on and on. It's not just about the English versus American style of golden. And if an English style golden doesn't win, maybe it wasn't the best dog in the ring that day just like the REST of the dogs in the ring that didn't win that day. 

/rant. Sorry for the long winded strongly worded post, it isn't directed at Shalva or anyone in particular. Obviously this is just my opinion as a relative newcomer to conformation, but this topic and the victim mentality displayed by some people pushing for the division of the breed just irks me.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> That doesn't even make sense to me. Besides the allowance of cream color the breed standards are not all that different (as analyzed by Jeff Pepper on the golden discussion group on facebook). What would the categories be? How would one distinguish which category to enter since ALL golden pedigrees go back to UK pedigrees? Would it be based solely on color like labs? That seems silly and uncessary, IMO.
> 
> There are obviously judges that don't like certain styles of dogs, including certain styles of "American" goldens. Judges I won't show my dog to again because they like a longer dog, judges who think a dog has too much bone or they like a different headpiece. I could go on and on and on and on. It's not just about the English versus American style of golden. And if an English style golden doesn't win, maybe it wasn't the best dog in the ring that day just like the REST of the dogs in the ring that didn't win that day.
> 
> /rant. Sorry for the long winded strongly worded post, it isn't directed at Shalva or anyone in particular. Obviously this is just my opinion as a relative newcomer to conformation, but this topic and the victim mentality displayed by some people pushing for the division of the breed just irks me.


The thing is that English dogs are almost never successful in the AKC breed ring... and its always easy to say they were not the best dog in the ring but sometimes honestly you know that they are and they still don't make the ribbons... they pretty much get ignored and when you are in the ring with your english style dog that looks soooooo different from the American dogs it takes a very brave judge to put up the sore thumb so to speak... none the less most of us don't want a breed split... we want the standard to be more accepting of the differences in style... thats it... we want to compete in the same way as everyone else. Its not a victim mentality but when you have an entire group experiencing the same thing you have to wonder... 

There is talk about more of us showing in AKC just so the judges get used to seeing our dogs and that is all well and good but honestly I don't have the money to put a dog in the ring that doesn't even get a look... shows arent cheap and with travel and food and prep its a bit pricey to make a point.... but they are right, that is what needs to be done. That and maybe a standard that is a bit more accepting of our dogs.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm sure I would feel differently if I were you, I guess I just feel like there are always reasons people don't win. I get frustrated when I see long backed/long loined dogs being put up. And it happens a LOT in this area. My dog looks different than the other dogs in the ring most of the time since he is short backed and short loined. In my opinion, he is more correct in that respect and it is certainly frustrating to see longer dogs winning. But, I seek out judges that will not be swayed by the long, big sidegait of a long dog. Now we only need majors so I'm just showing to all of them, but I do understand how it is to have the different looking dog in the ring. Maybe not as different as yours, but still different.

And I will say, I think a judge is an idiot if they don't put up a beautiful English style dog if it's the best dog in the ring that day. I would love to see more beautiful representations of that style in the ring here.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Shalva said:


> There is talk about more of us showing in AKC just so the judges get used to seeing our dogs and that is all well and good but honestly I don't have the money to put a dog in the ring that doesn't even get a look... shows arent cheap and with travel and food and prep its a bit pricey to make a point.... but they are right, that is what needs to be done.


I would go in the ring, no problem. 

I've been in contact with this breeder and am thinking about this litter. The only thing is the deposit, not because I feel that it's wrong, but there are so many circumstances that may/could change in the time frame. I may just start looking at the time I want a puppy, (in 2013), that way I'll know what's going on in my life at the time. 

I always said I didn't want a puppy, but I think I will next time around because I decided I want to show. I've been going back and forth between a Dane and another Golden. Pretty sure I'll stick with a Golden and I _will_ get a very light colored one, just my preference. And you know what, I'll take her in the AKC ring. I've already faced a lot of prejudice with Chance, (at rescue events, at my shop), and I have a pretty tough skin.  There are a ton of shows in my area, (SF Bay Area), and I'd keep showing in as many as I could afford.

I agree, they _have_ to get out there. Pretty soon, one _will_ win and then they're on their way.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'm sure I would feel differently if I were you, I guess I just feel like there are always reasons people don't win. I get frustrated when I see long backed/long loined dogs being put up. And it happens a LOT in this area. My dog looks different than the other dogs in the ring most of the time since he is short backed and short loined. In my opinion, he is more correct in that respect and it is certainly frustrating to see longer dogs winning. But, I seek out judges that will not be swayed by the long, big sidegait of a long dog. Now we only need majors so I'm just showing to all of them, but I do understand how it is to have the different looking dog in the ring. Maybe not as different as yours, but still different.
> 
> And I will say, I think a judge is an idiot if they don't put up a beautiful English style dog if it's the best dog in the ring that day. I would love to see more beautiful representations of that style in the ring here.


Aren't English type goldens longer backed though? Maybe that's a reason why someone with a moderate English golden would target those judges?


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> And I will say, I think a judge is an idiot if they don't put up a beautiful English style dog if it's the best dog in the ring that day. I would love to see more beautiful representations of that style in the ring here.



I agree here... and it is about what is the fad in the ring at the time as well...its actually a little sad and can do alot of damage to a breed when a fad takes over the breed ring.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Megora said:


> Aren't English type goldens longer backed though? Maybe that's a reason why someone with a moderate English golden would target those judges?


some are some are not... some american dogs are long some are not, some american dogs have a front some do not, some have open coats some do not...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Shalva said:


> some are some are not... some american dogs are long some are not, some american dogs have a front some do not, some have open coats some do not...


I know... but what I was saying is looking at a website link somebody had of Crufts champions, a lot of them had what looked like longer bodies. It could have been an optical illusion, because their backs look different to me?


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Shalva said:


> I agree here... and it is about what is the fad in the ring at the time as well...its actually a little sad and can do alot of damage to a breed when a fad takes over the breed ring.


Indeed, I feel this way a lot after reading the blue book, she really points out the faults in what "wins"


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

kdowningxc said:


> Indeed, I feel this way a lot after reading the blue book, she really points out the faults in what "wins"



its funny cause some of those top winning dogs have flashy but terribly incorrect movement... its amazing to watch... or in the golden ring... whatever happened to upper arm... and fronts... prow is not a front a front is a front... and so many of the dogs are so darned straight in the front...but they have a ton of coat... with all that coat could they really do what the breed was intended to do or would they get stuck to a burdock bush and the German Shepherd is a good example of what happens when fads take over the breed ring....


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Shalva said:


> I honestly think your comments are better directed at the multitude of backyard breeders out there... Not someone who is showing, doing clearances, has mentors, researched... and is trying to do it right...
> 
> Ya know what ... the breed NEEDS MORE RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS.... the fact is that me and tahnee and sterre and sungold and sallys and liberty, arcane, pointgold etc etc can't possibly meet the demand for golden retrievers. We need responsible breeders. Now anyone who knows me knows that I am the first one to slam the irresponsible... I have no time or patience for them and will totally refuse to help them become better backyard breeders....
> 
> But this is a case where you seem to be harping on someone for trying to do it right... someone who is making an attempt to do it right... if not perfect... they are trying to learn.... they are showing their dogs, they are doing therapy work with their dogs, they are doing clearances, they researched their dogs (and I have stated repeatedly that the pedigrees are very nice) they have mentors, they are here taking the heat... their deposit is totally refundable... what else do you want them to do???? because honestly at this point it just seems to be harping and nit picking.


I totally agree with you Shalva and thank you!!


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Tahnee GR said:


> I think she is doing a decent job. The fact is that many breeders choose to breed a girl on her first season after age 2, because it is healthier for the bitches and puppies. I used to wait until my girls were finished before breeding them-with my slow maturing lines, it often meant not breeding until age 4 or later. This led to smaller litters and sometimes misses. Her dogs do have nice pedigrees, and she has a good mentor.
> 
> I have to agree that the International titles are currently not worth much, in terms of proving how a dog measures up against the standard but right now, I think they, and UKC, are the only games in town for those with English style Goldens. Perhaps if more were shown in AKC, judges would get used to them, but that can cost a lot of money.
> 
> It would be nice to see a CCA in combination with those International titles, though. I really want to get my guys to a CCA event within the next year or so.


Thank you for your comments. I do plan to continue working with our goldens more and I do plan to showing them in UKC shows as well who knows I may even enter an AKC show too unfortunately the lighter coats don't seem to do so well there maybe if more people show lighter goldens in AKC that may change in time who knows. I am thankful for my mentors and plan to continue learning as much about our dogs and this breed as we can and go along.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

youhaloo said:


> Thank you for your comments. I do plan to continue working with our goldens more and I do plan to showing them in UKC shows as well who knows I may even enter an AKC show too unfortunately the lighter coats don't seem to do so well there maybe if more people show lighter goldens in AKC that may change in time who knows. I am thankful for my mentors and plan to continue learning as much about our dogs and this breed as we can and go along.


Why not get out there in the AKC shows anyway if they are in your area? It would give your dog experience with being out in the ring, right.... ?

Good luck<:


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

goldparent said:


> I am still uncomfortable with a breeder with no experience/reputation accepting money that far out for a litter when it only benefits them. I think that was the original point of the post. It may not be the case here but there are too many fly by night breeders who do this I would think if you want to be seen as reputable you wouldn’t want to be clumped in with them.
> 
> I also would rather see someone with more breed experience breeding then just breeding a dog when they turn two because you can. What would be wrong with showing them more and waiting a little? Do you know most golden health issues develop beyond 2 years old? Maybe taking some time to show them more will give you the knowledge base to be the kind of breeder you are aspiring to be. The International shows (IABCA) these dogs were shown in everyone gets a title in a weekend and there is often no competition so I think it would be hard to learn about the breed that way. Maybe show in more reputable organizations or maybe do obedience or agility and join clubs to learn. Competition is the key to learning in dogs and right now it seems the shows and therapy work really haven’t exposed you to unbiased comparing your goldens to others to see if you really will be “improving” the breed. You still seem to be in the “pet owner” mode of “my dogs are the greatest so I should breed them” (and maybe they are). I don’t understand why everyone is in such a rush to be a breeder. Everything seems to be about if I do health clearances I can breed my dogs. That is a good step but there is more beyond that to be a good breeder.
> 
> Sara


We are not just breeding our dogs just to breed dogs. People on here are making judgements about us and do not even know who we are. I would suggest spending more time getting to know someone before making comments about how you think they are. We have spent a long time learning, researching, learning from our mentors and also our breeders, we imported Gracie from a very responsible & well known breeder in Spain and she has a great pedigree and we believe her lines should continue on ... we will find the best male Stud we feel is suited for her and do plan to breed her when we feel she is ready.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Tahnee GR said:


> I think she is doing a decent job. The fact is that many breeders choose to breed a girl on her first season after age 2, because it is healthier for the bitches and puppies. I used to wait until my girls were finished before breeding them-with my slow maturing lines, it often meant not breeding until age 4 or later. This led to smaller litters and sometimes misses. Her dogs do have nice pedigrees, and she has a good mentor.
> 
> I have to agree that the International titles are currently not worth much, in terms of proving how a dog measures up against the standard but right now, I think they, and UKC, are the only games in town for those with English style Goldens. Perhaps if more were shown in AKC, judges would get used to them, but that can cost a lot of money.
> 
> It would be nice to see a CCA in combination with those International titles, though. I really want to get my guys to a CCA event within the next year or so.


We are planning to breed Gracie after she turns 2 years (and also passes all health clearances) because our vet and also our mentors also suggested this is the best time to breed a female for her first litter and not to wait until she is older 

... I also plan to continue working with our dogs


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Megora said:


> Why not get out there in the AKC shows anyway if they are in your area? It would give your dog experience with being out in the ring, right.... ?
> 
> Good luck<:


Right we may do that as I said I believe it is the only thing that would inspire change


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Megora said:


> Why not get out there in the AKC shows anyway if they are in your area? It would give your dog experience with being out in the ring, right.... ?
> 
> Good luck<:


Because its expensive with very little opportunity to do anything... by the time you get done with entries and travel and getting dogs ready and all of that you can easily spend $50 a day.... and while it would be good for judges to see our dogs and get used to seeing them.. you also have to consider cost with very little return


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Shalva said:


> Because its expensive with very little opportunity to do anything... by the time you get done with entries and travel and getting dogs ready and all of that you can easily spend $50 a day.... and while it would be good for judges to see our dogs and get used to seeing them.. you also have to consider cost with very little return


I think next year we will go to an AKC show that is in our area and try it out also we will most likely be able to go up to Canada as well once we move up to northern California it will be closer to drive there


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Shalva, you are optimistic ... With entry fees at at least $28/show plus travel.... Say I go to Fitchburg from Maine. So there is an E Z pass fee to leave and reenter the Maine turnpike as well as the Hampton tolls in NH...plus filling my Toyota Sienna which is about $60 each day... It does add up!!!!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

youhaloo said:


> I think next year we will go to an AKC show that is in our area and try it out also we will most likely be able to go up to Canada as well once we move up to northern California it will be closer to drive there


There's a show in San Jose in mid-February. Here's the info and the links will take you to the premium:

Santa Clara Valley Kennel Club BREED/OBED on Sunday, February 19, 2012 in San Jose, CA. Closes 02/01/2012 . Event type: AB/O/JSHW.
Santa Clara Valley Kennel Club, Inc. BREED on Monday, February 20, 2012 in San Jose, CA. Closes 02/01/2012 . Event type: AB/JSHW.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Shalva said:


> Because its expensive with very little opportunity to do anything... by the time you get done with entries and travel and getting dogs ready and all of that you can easily spend $50 a day.... and while it would be good for judges to see our dogs and get used to seeing them.. you also have to consider cost with very little return


But $50 a day close to home can make more sense if it's in comparison to flying with your golden to show in Ontario. Right? 

Knowing people who are pursuing CH's on their goldens and other breeds (english bull dogs, for example).... and don't have any points to show for it after a year of getting out into those rings... I've come to think that you conformation people are used to spending $$$ with very little to show for it.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

Shalva said:


> Because its expensive with very little opportunity to do anything... by the time you get done with entries and travel and getting dogs ready and all of that you can easily spend $50 a day.... and while it would be good for judges to see our dogs and get used to seeing them.. you also have to consider cost with very little return


Yes it would be nice to see more lighter goldens do well at the AKC shows... I think as long as people do not attend the shows in fear of no returns they will never be accepted any better than today that is part of the problem it seems I'm not sure what the answer is


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Megora said:


> Knowing people who are pursuing CH's on their goldens and other breeds (english bull dogs, for example).... and don't have any points to show for it after a year of getting out into those rings... I've come to think that you conformation people are used to spending $$$ with very little to show for it.


I think that is totally true. That was basically what I was saying in my "rant" above


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

oh I was just thinking entry and lunch... didnt even consider gas and tolls and parking ... hubby pays those things lol


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I'd also like to say (since I thought I did before but didn't) that I have a friend who has a very light dog who has a major and several points on him owner handled. The dog is in the ribbons quite a bit, he moves like a dream. So it CAN happen. Owner handled champions seem to be few and far between regardless of color.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> There's a show in San Jose in mid-February. Here's the info and the links will take you to the premium:
> 
> Santa Clara Valley Kennel Club BREED/OBED on Sunday, February 19, 2012 in San Jose, CA. Closes 02/01/2012 . Event type: AB/O/JSHW.
> Santa Clara Valley Kennel Club, Inc. BREED on Monday, February 20, 2012 in San Jose, CA. Closes 02/01/2012 . Event type: AB/JSHW.


Thank you! I will be joining the NorCal golden retriever club once we are moved into our new home. We are moving in January. I am going to visit my Family in February (in Ohio) and we also have a trip down to Socal as well in February. I will get a schedule from the club and I know infodog.com has show calendars too. I will look into it more & thanks!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Good for you, Shalva!!! My hubby hates every aspect of conformation shows. He is somewhat ok with obedience shows. It remains my uphill battle!


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

There is an extreme contrast in Canada and US as far as cost (due to the way the points schedule is set up and competition). 

For reference, including entry fees, gas and "lodging" I finished my boy in Canada for $120 total, this summer, when I was spending $4 a gallon. So even if you are far from Canada and it takes you a couple trips, you will get a return on your investment (some wins, points and maybe a CH). Showing in the AKC with an english style golden, I can see why it would not be advantageous to do so.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

That's just my point though. It's not like American style goldens generally show for a weekend, or even a couple of months, and finish their championship in AKC shows. It's very competitive for all goldens, not just English style dogs... if you look at it solely from a financial perspective, it's not really advantageous for almost anyone to show in AKC shows, right?


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## eeneymeanymineymo (Oct 5, 2009)

I have just read this entire thread twice and the original post was about taking deposits 9 months in advance of the anticipated breeding. Just a few observations.......this is a new breeder with a website who has lots of impressive photos as she is a photographer who is trying to market her golden retrievers. She is doing a great job of marketing. She is showing her goldens - not AKC but remember she is new at this showing thing, has gotten prelims (looks like excellent on both) on hips & (normal) elbows on both of her dogs - don't forget, those Xrays cost the same as the finals which she is going to have to resubmit new Xrays. I would suggest that CERF and OFA heart clearances be done on both now before you spend more money on hips & elbows as CERF & OFA heart fees are much lower and if by chance they do not clear, well, you are not out the double cost of new Xrays.

From what I take away from her website is that she is very proud of her golden retrievers and yes, everyone has to start somewheres as a breeder. Since their is no official license or test she must pass to call herself a breeder, she is trying to do all the right things. Interviewing potential puppy owners BEFORE a litter is born, in my mind, speaks volumes. If they are close enough, she might be able to conduct in their home interviews as well. I see nothing wrong in this approach. She is not mass producing puppies and only has 2 dogs. A deposit taken in advance isn't necessarily a bad thing. It means a commitment to WAIT for the litter to be born with the balance due when the puppies go home. Jean has already stated the deposit is refundable. I am sure she has a deposit form indicating those terms as well as providing a copy of her contract at the time of deposit. Seems to me, she is looking for homes that are willing to wait for this breeding (or to another stud dog) and if people do not feel comfortable leaving a deposit, then they will have to take their chances of perhaps getting or not getting a puppy if and when the whelping occurs. She is looking out for the best interest of her puppies.

Yes, many things can happen between now and the time she actually breeds her bitch. She is trying to learn from mentors that can be supportive and helpful. Coming on this board and commenting on this thread speaks volumes. She isn't being nasty and I truly believe she wants to learn. I would suggest that Jean join her local Golden Retriever Club as well as the GRCA so that she can learn even more. Perhaps she is a GRCA member, if so I apologize.

On a side note, showing your dogs in AKC is very expensive. Do you know how expensive? Here is a quick total of what it can cost just in one months time:
$120 per show paid to the handler to show your dog so for a 4 day weekend, $ 480 plus entry fees (average) $ 30 per show. So $ 600 for 4 days. Multiply that by 4 if they are out every weekend for 4 days = $ 2400. If you are lucky, you may get a point or two and gosh - maybe a major! And please don't tell me that an owner handler can do it for a lot less because I have been there. It is cheaper to pay the handler by the time you add up gas, hotel, tolls, wear & tear on your vehicle, meals and not to mention breakdowns of your vehicle. The golden ring is very political and one of the hardest to finish a breeder/owner handled dog. Yes,it can and has been done by many and they truly enjoy it but are gone 4 weekends out of the month? Not many can do this with family and other dogs to take care of and when they have a litter, they really can't be gone unless they have a great support system at home in place.

I am so tired of hearing that lighter goldens don't do well in the ring. First of all, you have to enter under judges that appreciate the style of golden you are showing. It doesn't make all judges bad because they didn't put up your lighter golden. COLOR has nothing to do with it and if a judge is basing their decision on color, well, I don't think they will be pulling entries from owners of lighter goldens in the future. You have to do your homework on judges when it comes time to enter. Look at the panels and ask your handler, mentor or breeder friends what they think of that judge for your golden FIRST before you enter under that judge. Go to Infodog and see what that judge has put up in the past. Remember....they are GOLDEN RETRIEVERS. The AKC has has a written standard that we must accept if we are entering our GOLDEN RETRIEVERS in AKC dog shows. 

An owner/breeder can easily spend over $ 10,000 in 6 months time having the dog shown and still not have completed the dogs American Championship. I know of a friend who spent close to $ 20,000 on a handler for his bitch, who got both majors and only needed a few singles but the bitch never finished because the owner got frustrated and finally gave up on the show scene. Showing is very expensive and I cringe every time I hear a negative comment about "does the breeder have an American CH. on their bitch before they bred her" when if you knew how expensive, political and frustrating it can be when you know you have a beautiful bitch who is major pointed, has beautiful movement with a proper front, outstanding temperament, has all 4 of her clearances but perhaps the bitch can't stay in coat well because she blows it every less than 6 months when she comes into season so therefore, she didn't finish yet and she is closing in on 3 or 4 years of age. Unfortunately, the longer you wait to breed the bitch, the better chance you will have that she doesn't conceive. Therefore, many breeders WILL breed their bitches after 2 years of age then take their girls back out to try and finish their AKC Championship. Remember, we enter dog shows and are paying for judges to basically tells us that they like our dog that day based on the other entries in each class and IF our dog is lucky enough to win their class, they then get to go back in the ring for Winners and again, the judge only picks one dog and one bitch that gets to take home the points that day. 

There is no need to point fingers at any breeder on how they choose to breed, show or how they handle deposits. It is their choice, just as it is your choice where you purchase your puppy from. What if breeders decided to wait until 4 yrs old to breed their bitches? That would mean that many of you looking for a reputable breeder who does all clearances on a finished bitch with her American CH. wouldn't be getting puppies because most likely the breeder already has a full list of reservations for puppies for the last two years waiting to finish that Championship from admirer's who have watched the conformation ring and really want a puppy out of the bitch.

Selling puppies is not what a breeder is all about. Making sure puppies have suitable homes, are socialized well and out of parents with wonderful temperaments, have all 4 clearances are usually at the top of any breeders list - just to name a few. To be able to trust the new puppy owners and in turn, they trust the breeder. If that is not established, then perhaps some owners are better off going to see a litter that is 7 weeks old, pick their own pup and return the week later with payment then to never care to or keep in touch with the breeder ever again. It all boils down to choice. We all have it.

This is my opinion, no fingers being pointed or singling out any one on this particular thread. I do not know Jean or her dogs but feel that she is trying to do the right thing as a new breeder. JMHO.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

I have to agree that there are many dogs in Europe and in the UK that are short in the leg and long in back. Annef


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'd also like to say (since I thought I did before but didn't) that I have a friend who has a very light dog who has a major and several points on him owner handled. The dog is in the ribbons quite a bit, he moves like a dream. So it CAN happen. Owner handled champions seem to be few and far between regardless of color.



this is part of the problem people think that it is all about light..... its not its about different style... a light colored dog can still look like an american dog... and English style dog is going ot look like an English style dog regardless of color, it just happens that many are light... and when you talk about your friend having a light dog...

I always find it slightly amusing when people who have no experience showing a lighter colored dog tell people who do that it has nothing to do with color when the standard clearly says extremes of pale and dark are undesireable so if the judge is judging to the standard then it does matter... read the standard, not to mention light is relative... but where you are right is that color shouldn't matter....You are sick of hearing they don't do well in the breed ring... well I am sick of people who have absolutely no experience showing this style of dog and think its all about color standing at ringside looking at a light colored american dog saying "see they can win" its not just about color 

You have also stated how expensive showing is... thats true... so the one cream colored dog that I know that actually finished an AKC championship followed judges across the country... sure they researched... shoot I know who the judges are that will like my type of dog... but unfortunately I am just an average person who can't afford to cart my dogs around the country (and that is what it required for this dog) and I am not going to send my dog away with a handler for a couple years (which is what this dog did)... and ya know what I shouldn't have to.... shoot my American style dog with a gay tail has AKC points... (we didn't finish him, there was no point) my much more structurally sound English dogs can't get in the ribbons to save their lives.... 

and all it takes is one look at my dogs to see that they look different... and when you talk about lighter dogs are they this light










or this light










so there is light and there is light.... but you can see there are other differences... like eye shape and set.. head shape .... etc etc.... 

My Kaelyn has color.... she still looks different than any other dog in the ring... regardless of her color and honestly in the AKC ring even though she has color she still is the lightest dog in the ring 










its not just about color and honest there are many english dogs with nice color... I actually prefer color...at the CCA Barbara Pepper and the other judges were highly complimentary of my boy Emmett... she rated him as a medium gold. Even with a pro on him he doesn't do anything in the ring in the AKC and don't think that after years in the ring that I don't pick apart my dogs... and I can tell you that my AMerican dog shouldn't have a single point... he has no front to speak of... he is long in back... he has at minimum a high tail at worst a gay tail... and he is pointed from several shows..... but he has a lovely head and is a lustrious medium gold.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

annef said:


> I have to agree that there are many dogs in Europe and in the UK that are short in the leg and long in back. Annef


as there are in the states... and honestly Anne you ain't seen short in leg and upper arm until you come here... it's honestly incredible.... 

nobody is saying that UK dogs are perfect they have their own issues that need to be worked on...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have to say that last March at the Sporting Dog Specialty in Mass, that a very light colored bitch from Lazydaze/Beau Geste (I'm sure there were UK lines in there... structurally, she looked like it) went WB. And the Winners Dog was a red color that would rival an Irish Setter. The winners from the day before were totally overlooked. And it was at this day at this show, that a very long time breeder of goldens (her dogs were in the pedigree of my first golden born in 1989) turned to me and complained about the trend in breeding goldens. She didn't like the lack of leg or the long backs or the overdone coats. Then she mentioned another long time breeder whose dogs have maintained that working structure through the years... and haven't "succumbed" to that trend.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> I have to say that last March at the Sporting Dog Specialty in Mass, that a very light colored bitch from Lazydaze/Beau Geste (I'm sure there were UK lines in there... structurally, she looked like it) went WB. And the Winners Dog was a red color that would rival an Irish Setter. The winners from the day before were totally overlooked. And it was at this day at this show, that a very long time breeder of goldens (her dogs were in the pedigree of my first golden born in 1989) turned to me and complained about the trend in breeding goldens. She didn't like the lack of leg or the long backs or the overdone coats. Then she mentioned another long time breeder whose dogs have maintained that working structure through the years... and haven't "succumbed" to that trend.


Ya know thats just it... its a trend... I remember when Yogi was showing and you had these lovely heads and then the trend changed to more wedge shaped heads and squinty eyes ... now we have short with no upper arm and overdone coats.... its a fad.... 

I don't think that my dogs should walk in to the ring and win because of their style... I just want a judge to give them a fair shot.. and I don't mind losing to a better dog.. I can appreciate good American style dogs and good English style dogs.. we have both here.... but right now my dogs don't have a shot and I am not going to waste my money to show in a venue that my dogs have no chance in not due to their structure but because of the trend in style and the way the standard is written. 

My own mentor is a long time breeder (since the 1960's) her mentor was Paigey... and she has bucked the trend... 

Personally I think that a nice blend of American and UK lines could be really nice... I haven't gotten there yet... maybe in the next couple years I don't know...but I remember a conversation in the lab community (another breed where the trend has made a mess of the dogs) and they were talking about how important it is to show their style of dogs... so the judges got used to seeing them but who has the cash to show just to make a point... I would but honestly its gets pricey to show for the sake of showing when I have other dogs here that will do well and need to be shown and finished... 

its a quandary

Do you remember who the judge was who put of the lazydaze dog??


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> I have to say that last March at the Sporting Dog Specialty in Mass, that a very light colored bitch from Lazydaze/Beau Geste (I'm sure there were UK lines in there... structurally, she looked like it) went WB. And the Winners Dog was a red color that would rival an Irish Setter. The winners from the day before were totally overlooked. And it was at this day at this show, that a very long time breeder of goldens (her dogs were in the pedigree of my first golden born in 1989) turned to me and complained about the trend in breeding goldens. She didn't like the lack of leg or the long backs or the overdone coats. Then she mentioned another long time breeder whose dogs have maintained that working structure through the years... and haven't "succumbed" to that trend.


I went and looked up the lazydaze dog... and its probably her Tory who has Stanroph behind her so yeah English lines in the third Gen... my dogs have quite a bit of Stanroph behind them and she is certainly lighter but not as light as my dogs are... I know that Marges Salty (Stanroph Trowsnest Sailer Boy, I think) was a darker colored dog... 

s


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Shalva, this is my friend's dog. And this photo makes him actually look darker than he really is. He is very light. He won a 4 point major owner handled with a lot of "power handlers" from all over the country in the ring. And he has single points as well, not sure what his total is at the moment. I'm not saying that means that every (or any) light dog can do the same, but my point just was that it can happen.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Shalva, this is my friend's dog. And this photo makes him actually look darker than he really is. He is very light. He won a 4 point major owner handled with a lot of "power handlers" from all over the country in the ring. I'm not saying that means that every (or any) light dog can do the same, but my point just was that it can happen.


I have already said it can happen... I know of a dog that finished his AKC championship... and there are judges that I could show to... but I for one am not going to cart my dog all over the country... ie. I am in NH so is california chasing judges realistic ... NO ... just a couple months ago there were three judges in southern cal. that I would have loved to show my dogs to... but I am not going to california to show... and honestly banging ones head against the wall a million times to get the one judge that will put up a cream colored dog is just not going to happen... maybe other folks are willing to do that I am not ... I don't honestly have the time or the money... 

of course it CAN happen... ask your friend how often it happens... even with a lovely dog like that one...


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I understand. You asked how light the dog was so that's why I posted the photo. I've actually never heard her say she thought a judge didn't like him because he is light, oddly enough. I think showing is VERY expensive under the best circumstances, I've spent a couple thousand dollars in the past few months showing our dog all over the place because he just needs majors. So I get it.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I understand. You asked how light the dog was so that's why I posted the photo. I've actually never heard her say she thought a judge didn't like him because he is light, oddly enough. I think showing is VERY expensive under the best circumstances, I've spent a couple thousand dollars in the past few months showing our dog all over the place because he just needs majors. So I get it.


the other thing is that he could be in an area with alot of lighter dogs... he could also be a lighter dog from an American pedigree so the difference really is just color where everything else could be more american style.. the coat looks more american style to me but I can't really tell in a picture... 

I have seen dogs up here who are pretty light but are still american style dogs... 

I dont think any dog should win just because of style
I think the best dog should win regardless of style... and that doesn't seem to happen much


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## eeneymeanymineymo (Oct 5, 2009)

Since you are in NH Shalva, perhaps Judy Taylor who is judging in Syracuse, NY on 3/30/11 might be a judge worth entering under. I also believe it is the GRCCNY Specialty that day - unless the club has changed dates. Elizabeth Greenfield and Jon Chase are also on the panel that weekend for goldens.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Youhaloo,

Have you tried field training? It's a whole lot of fun and far less frustrating than the breed ring. Plus, you can say your dogs are doing what they are bred for! Stop by the Hunt & Field section and join us!


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

*early deposits*



eeneymeanymineymo said:


> I have just read this entire thread twice and the original post was about taking deposits 9 months in advance of the anticipated breeding. Just a few observations.......this is a new breeder with a website who has lots of impressive photos as she is a photographer who is trying to market her golden retrievers. She is doing a great job of marketing. She is showing her goldens - not AKC but remember she is new at this showing thing, has gotten prelims (looks like excellent on both) on hips & (normal) elbows on both of her dogs - don't forget, those Xrays cost the same as the finals which she is going to have to resubmit new Xrays. I would suggest that CERF and OFA heart clearances be done on both now before you spend more money on hips & elbows as CERF & OFA heart fees are much lower and if by chance they do not clear, well, you are not out the double cost of new Xrays.
> 
> From what I take away from her website is that she is very proud of her golden retrievers and yes, everyone has to start somewheres as a breeder. Since their is no official license or test she must pass to call herself a breeder, she is trying to do all the right things. Interviewing potential puppy owners BEFORE a litter is born, in my mind, speaks volumes. If they are close enough, she might be able to conduct in their home interviews as well. I see nothing wrong in this approach. She is not mass producing puppies and only has 2 dogs. A deposit taken in advance isn't necessarily a bad thing. It means a commitment to WAIT for the litter to be born with the balance due when the puppies go home. Jean has already stated the deposit is refundable. I am sure she has a deposit form indicating those terms as well as providing a copy of her contract at the time of deposit. Seems to me, she is looking for homes that are willing to wait for this breeding (or to another stud dog) and if people do not feel comfortable leaving a deposit, then they will have to take their chances of perhaps getting or not getting a puppy if and when the whelping occurs. She is looking out for the best interest of her puppies.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I appreciate your kind words and think what you said is 100% correct. Yes we are proud of our dogs, we waited a long time for both of our dogs and we do work with them the best we can. We are learning and growing everyday in our knowledge. I am very thankful to Shalva for agreeing to help mentor us, we are open to learning and want to learn as much as we can about breeding and golden retrievers in general. I believe it would benefit the breed so much if more experienced breeders would help to mentor the newcomers. I have read countless books have been to dog breeding seminars (I was at Pat Hastings several months ago and learned a lot and also from her books). My husband and I are new and we are learning the most we can as we go along. My point is that we do have to start somewhere and we are dedicated to the breed. We have done research years before buying our dogs and we are very happy we took the time to find reputable breeders and are very happy with both of our dogs and love them. We will be having all final health clearances on both of them before breeding and will find the best mate suitable for each of them. We know that the best match isn't necessarily our dog we own and we have already spent months researching studs and plan on using a stud for Gracie's first litter if it is possible (of course that also passes health clearances). Our dogs are part of our family and yes we only have 2 dogs and we do plan to continue working with them. I am hoping to get into fielding work with them also and plan to this upcoming year. I am a member of the GRCA and also the Santa Ana Kennel Club (a local club) I also am going to join the NorCal golden retriever club as soon as we move. The reason for us taking a few deposits early is only to have a few really great homes lined up in the case she may have a very large litter. Gracie's mommy had 8 puppies in her litter and Asti 9. We don't have a lot of contacts yet and we only want to find the best possible homes for her future puppies and are interviewing all potential buyers and calling their references and vet. Anyone who has already put down a deposit knows there is a long wait and was not in any rush to add another pup right away. All deposits will be refundable and yes we did provide them with a copy of our reservation agreement stating this. We believe we are doing the responsible thing setting up just a few homes before the litter arrives that is all our only intent. We also believe this does not only benefit us as the breeder, it benefits the puppies to ensure they have loving homes waiting as well as the future owner so they can be assured if there are enough puppies born in the litter they will get the first pick. Also, if there are not enough born, I do know other responsible breeders they will be referred to. We are fortunate in one respect that my husband Co-Founded a start-up company in RFID Technology many years ago that was bought out by a large corporation and so we have very minimal bills. We love our dogs and even have health insurance plans for both of our dogs and they come first. We are not planning to breeding for money as one person earlier stated that we may need the deposit money because we are moving. Some of the comments on are absurd I can't image why people say things when they don't even know the person. I'm sure in some cases that sort of thing does happen but that is not the case here. I know and I am thankful that I am fortunate to be able to stay home with our dogs full time and focus on my photography work and also volunteer. The people that have put deposits down already have a golden and want to add another to their family they are willing to wait. Our goal is to improve the breed that we love in our own small way. We believe both of our dogs have wonderful bloodlines that should continue on. We will only breed them after they pass all their health clearances and we feel is the right timing for them to be bred. All of the people who have put deposits down already have a golden (that is younger) and they want to add another to their family. We believe we are doing what we think is right and we will continue to evaluate what works for us and what doesn't as we go along. Thank you.


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## youhaloo (Dec 14, 2011)

GoldenSail said:


> Youhaloo,
> 
> Have you tried field training? It's a whole lot of fun and far less frustrating than the breed ring. Plus, you can say your dogs are doing what they are bred for! Stop by the Hunt & Field section and join us!


I really want to get into field training with our dogs and plan to this coming year. (Our Gracie's sire, "Hippito", (Ch. Thevenet Lord of the Ring) just earned his official title of TRIALER, awarded by the Royal Canine society of Spain in the Field Trial held in Vallirana and organized by the Spanish Retriever Club.)


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## Kevinsmom (Jul 26, 2011)

Just visiting for the first time since I posted this and was going to post an update. The interesting thing about this situation is when my friend checked back in it turns out one of the perspective parents didn't pass their health tests so won't be bred. I guess it is good they didn't breed them but I think a good reason deposits shouldn't be taken so far ahead. My friend had to move and didn't end up getting any puppy so I am once again helping her find a puppy and hope we have better luck this time. Thanks for all of your help. Dee


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## ssc122 (Apr 17, 2020)

Sorry to bring this back, but we came across this thread as we are doing more research on norcal breeders. Somerset seems to be still very active. Pedigrees on the current parents look pretty well documented, can we have a second opinion from the community here as well? Thanks!

Dam - Pedigree: Dailuaine From Me to You
Sire - Pedigree: Nose For News No Hills CIE, Austrian CH, German junior CH, German VDH Champion, German Club Champion (GRC)


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

They are both ICT carriers- so there is a high chance of affected puppies. 
ICT can be a 'nothing' condition or a very difficult condition for housekeeping or skin lesions. 

Also the stud dog's clearances were done before 18 mo old- he should have eyes within the last 12 months, and his cardiac clearance is one I am not familiar with. It's inexpensive to have it verified and listed on OFA, same for his hips/elbows but the owner has not done this.


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

It looks to me like the breeder may have imported semen for Nose For News No Hills (the sire), in which case his health exams are going to be from the country of residence: Belgium.

I would be concerned about doing a carrier x carrier breeding. There is absolutely no reason to be taking the chance of producing more affected offspring. Yes, it can be a major problem for some owners. But we have very good testing and for someone do THIS breeding is a cop out. The usual reason we here is because that is the best stud dog for this female. I beg to differ. It is likely the most convenient one and does not take into account the housekeeping issues you could be saddling your puppy buyers with.


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