# training today



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Whew, Dan packs so much into our training my head is spinning. Makes for tough driving home, lol.
After a quick warm up on land, we headed right to the cheating pond. Continued to work on swim-by, handling in water, etc. 
Dan said, "he sure is a hard head, isn't he??". That will tell you how it was going . But we eventually got what we wanted to out of him and moved on. 
One thing I need to work on is getting him to tread water better. He understands the sit whistle in water, turns nicely, looks, but then he starts sinking and he, according to Dan, realizes he needs to get going in SOME direction or he's going downward. He needs to learn to be more comfortable just treading there. So that's on the homework for next week.
Next thing was the channel. Dan put a bumper pile at the far end of the channel, but didn't toss any or indicate the pile in any way. Interestingly, when he sent Tito to the bumper pile, Tito was inclined to cheat the bank a couple of times. Dan assures me they all do when they start water channel blinds. That was easy to fix, he only tried it on one retrieve and then not after that. 
Dan says you should always follow de-cheating with in and out drills, which makes sense to me, so we did a few of those. The channel needs to be a little wider for Tito, his front feet touch the far bank when he does his "big air" leap. We think if he had a running start he'd land on the far bank and miss the water completely :doh:. Anyway, no problem with in and out.
Moved on to some simple handling in the big clean pond, that went really well. The boy does understand the concept of stopping in the water, and of being cast when in the water. Just needs to work on it more, and needs to understand that he's not the one deciding which bumper to head to....
After that back on land, we did more angle backs and I have some drills I'm supposed to be doing in the next week with angle backs. Dan says we are now going to fade out the "back-sit-back" sequence from training and replace it with the angle backs. Interestingly, we don't use a straight back at all when training angle backs.
Then some lining stuff, which was rather cool, involved poles in a row and us standing so that the poles were on our left in a straight line heading out. This is hard to explain. Think of us standing in the field, and the first pole is at my 10:00, about 15 yards away. The next pole is directly in line with it about 10 yards from the first pole, so sort of at my 11:00 but farther from me because it's in a straight line from the first pole. Another pole in line with them, about 10 yards from the second pole. So the lining is pretty tight. Yeeeesh, I'm not explaining this very well.
Well that had wiped out the whole hour, but Tito always gets to finish off with birds, usually live, so Dan had one of his young assistants, Johnny, load up some live ducks and take us out to toss a couple of marks.
First mark was an in-and-out across 3 peninsulas. The cover is pretty high on the peninsulas now, and the duck of course headed for the water (it was tossed on the land). Tito found it right away, Johnny said it had been a really tough mark because it ended up in very tall cover right at the shoreline, Tito had to get in the water on the other side and then swim along the shoreline to find it. Good dog.
Then a couple of land marks, the birds didn't have their feet taped or tied because we wanted them to run. Johnny tossed them in really heavy cover, Tito had to do several cover changes to get to them. Again found each right away (singles). Good dog.
Finally, a simple water/land double. I used the water bird as the go bird, because Tito prefers water. He did have to dive under to get it, so I thought he probably would have forgotten the memory bird by the time he got back. He did hesitate for just a split second when I sent him for the memory bird, but then the light bulb went off and he ripped out after it. Found it right away, came strutting back proud as could be.
Johnny said, "I need to tell Dan to get rid of these labs and get some goldens!"
Great way to end the session!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Grins - sounds like another great session.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Awesome! I would have loved to hear that comment from Johnny, he is my hero of the day!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

I am just floored with actually reading "good dog" Think I will print this one out! May be awhile till the next one since you are starting new stuff:--big_grin:


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, I thought you guys would appreciate that ! 



DNL2448 said:


> Awesome! I would have loved to hear that comment from Johnny, he is my hero of the day!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

hahahahaha!
Seriously, the thing about Tito (and I'm sure lots of dogs) is that his attitude toward bumpers is rather, hmmm, lacksadaisical, whereas when the birds come out, he's ALL focus and attention. So the drills he acts like a major bonehead some times, hard headed and stubborn, but with the birds he's a whole different dog.





Radarsdad said:


> I am just floored with actually reading "good dog" Think I will print this one out! May be awhile till the next one since you are starting new stuff:--big_grin:


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> hahahahaha!
> Seriously, the thing about Tito (and I'm sure lots of dogs) is that his attitude toward bumpers is rather, hmmm, lacksadaisical, whereas when the birds come out, he's ALL focus and attention. So the drills he acts like a major bonehead some times, hard headed and stubborn, but with the birds he's a whole different dog.


I refuse to believe Tito can be hard headed or stubborn :uhoh::uhoh:

How often do you work with live birds?


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I want to come train with you!!! 

Of course my dogs are not nearly where Tito is....


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> hahahahaha!
> Seriously, the thing about Tito (and I'm sure lots of dogs) is that his attitude toward bumpers is rather, hmmm, lacksadaisical, whereas when the birds come out, he's ALL focus and attention. So the drills he acts like a major bonehead some times, hard headed and stubborn, but with the birds he's a whole different dog.


Well sure. But you are in a phase where all drills and corrections and hard stuff and stress are coming with bumpers and marks are only with birds, where the dog gets to totally freewheel it. Personally I have not had a dog act like they disliked bumpers or didn't care about them but I do mix in birds and bumpers so the dog doesn't associate that blinds/drills/hard stuff with bumpers and freedom crazy dog as birds.
I don't read Tito's lack of momentum at your iron cross drill or swim by as being hard-headed or stubborn, I read it as stress. You say he does baseball/mini-T great in new places but bombs in the same spot at Dan's. That is really common for dogs to have a bad attitude on the same field/place they do double T in fact that's a big part of why you need to have a separate field for double T than from your pattern blinds, beginning cold blinds, etc. 
I have a feeling Dan handles him when you're at Dan's house, and Dan being more experienced, is more likely to quickly stop or correct the dog, and probably over-corrects/demands perfection so he can set the dog back on the straight-and-narrow until he sees you the next time. So when doing these drills at Dan's it's not nearly as fun, so his attitude is down at this familiar place. But when you take it on the road and YOU handle him, that stigma is gone and he has no reason to be stressed. Stress shows up differently in each dog but doing funky stuff like taking stupid casts that he should "know" and acting down on bumpers could very easily be Tito's way of displaying it.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

He gets live birds once a week.



Sunrise said:


> I refuse to believe Tito can be hard headed or stubborn :uhoh::uhoh:
> 
> How often do you work with live birds?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I think you are 1000% correct here Anney. 
Tito doesn't act like he doesn't like bumpers, but his attitude isn't nearly as focused as when the birds are out. That's why I know he isn't thrilled with them, when he's focused on something you can't pry him off it with a crowbar; not so with bumpers.
The underlined part....totally, totally spot on.



K9-Design said:


> Well sure. But you are in a phase where all drills and corrections and hard stuff and stress are coming with bumpers and marks are only with birds, where the dog gets to totally freewheel it. Personally I have not had a dog act like they disliked bumpers or didn't care about them but I do mix in birds and bumpers so the dog doesn't associate that blinds/drills/hard stuff with bumpers and freedom crazy dog as birds.
> I don't read Tito's lack of momentum at your iron cross drill or swim by as being hard-headed or stubborn, I read it as stress. You say he does baseball/mini-T great in new places but bombs in the same spot at Dan's. That is really common for dogs to have a bad attitude on the same field/place they do double T in fact that's a big part of why you need to have a separate field for double T than from your pattern blinds, beginning cold blinds, etc.
> *I have a feeling Dan handles him when you're at Dan's house, and Dan being more experienced, is more likely to quickly stop or correct the dog, and probably over-corrects/demands perfection so he can set the dog back on the straight-and-narrow until he sees you the next time. So when doing these drills at Dan's it's not nearly as fun, so his attitude is down at this familiar place. But when you take it on the road and YOU handle him, that stigma is gone and he has no reason to be stressed. Stress shows up differently in each dog but doing funky stuff like taking stupid casts that he should "know" and acting down on bumpers could very easily be Tito's way of displaying it*.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Love the updates! Go Tito!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> Well sure. But you are in a phase where all drills and corrections and hard stuff and stress are coming with bumpers and marks are only with birds, where the dog gets to totally freewheel it. Personally I have not had a dog act like they disliked bumpers or didn't care about them but I do mix in birds and bumpers so the dog doesn't associate that blinds/drills/hard stuff with bumpers and freedom crazy dog as birds.
> I don't read Tito's lack of momentum at your iron cross drill or swim by as being hard-headed or stubborn, I read it as stress. You say he does baseball/mini-T great in new places but bombs in the same spot at Dan's. That is really common for dogs to have a bad attitude on the same field/place they do double T in fact that's a big part of why you need to have a separate field for double T than from your pattern blinds, beginning cold blinds, etc.
> I have a feeling Dan handles him when you're at Dan's house, and Dan being more experienced, is more likely to quickly stop or correct the dog, and probably over-corrects/demands perfection so he can set the dog back on the straight-and-narrow until he sees you the next time. So when doing these drills at Dan's it's not nearly as fun, so his attitude is down at this familiar place. But when you take it on the road and YOU handle him, that stigma is gone and he has no reason to be stressed. Stress shows up differently in each dog but doing funky stuff like taking stupid casts that he should "know" and acting down on bumpers could very easily be Tito's way of displaying it.


But the simple fact is you have deal with that attitude and he has you yield to you no matter where you are. Or what kind of mood they are in. If you start tailoring drills to his attitude you will wind up with a hole and guess where it will show. They will set up tests to make your dog go where he doesn't want to go. 
Seriously doubt Dan is over correcting. He is holding Tito to a high standard and dealing with his personality. You have to also. Yes they can be hardheaded and stubborn and it can have nothing to do with stress. Your job is to work them through it. Your job also is to help them with deal with stress and show him how to work through it also. 
This is a team sport not an event where you teach enough drills at different places to get through it. The drills are designed to teach your dog what the casts are, and to take them no matter which field you are on. If you are only teaching drills you are not teaching the dog the concept. In fact the location where he does the worst is where I want to teach.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Also totally agree with this. I do want to say that Dan never puts more stress/pressure on Tito than Tito can handle, and he breaks it up with fun stuff to keep him happy and upbeat. He doesn't over-correct, but he does have extremely high expectations. And as Anney said, he knows he only sees Tito one day a week, so he makes sure that Tito is at a point where I can work with him on the skills so sometimes he has to be especially firm with him. 
I think Tito's hardheadedness and stubborness sometimes does have to do with stress (I got the heat at that pile, not going back THERE again if I can help it!) and sometimes it has to do with his basic nature (I know a BETTER way to do this, lady...). Regardless of the cause, the outcome has to be the same, he has to realize that we are going to work through it together and in the end, he is going to do it my way. IMHAOWO, the single most important concept the dog learns in the training is how to turn off the pressure/reduce the stress. He learns that he is in charge of it, it's not random. 
Dan does all of the obedience work in the same place, probably for the exact reason you gave...it's where he knows he's going to get the worst out of Tito, and that's where we are going to work through it. Then we can move on to other stuff.
Like BIRDS! 




Radarsdad said:


> But the simple fact is you have deal with that attitude and he has you yield to you no matter where you are. Or what kind of mood they are in. If you start tailoring drills to his attitude you will wind up with a hole and guess where it will show. They will set up tests to make your dog go where he doesn't want to go.
> Seriously doubt Dan is over correcting. He is holding Tito to a high standard and dealing with his personality. You have to also. Yes they can be hardheaded and stubborn and it can have nothing to do with stress. Your job is to work them through it. Your job also is to help them with deal with stress and show him how to work through it also.
> This is a team sport not an event where you teach enough drills at different places to get through it. The drills are designed to teach your dog what the casts are, and to take them no matter which field you are on. If you are only teaching drills you are not teaching the dog the concept. In fact the location where he does the worst is where I want to teach.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

To give an example of what I'm talking about....it's not really a lack of momentum, it's more like a lack of, hmmm.....cooperation???

Cheating pond. Short swim across, maybe 20 yards if even that. Narrower in the other direction, only about 10 yards wide.
Tito on one end, bumper pile on the opposite end. Bumper pile is fairly visible, on land a short distance out of the water. NOT the first time we've done this drill. He has been quite successful with it, doing it in parts, and doing it all together.
Bumpers on both sides of the narrower side, too, floating right at the water's edge. 
Dan gives "back" command.
Tito does his happy big-air jump, heads for the back pile.
Dan blows the sit whistle.
Tito stops, treads water (needs some work on the treading). 
Dan casts him BACK, to the pile he was heading toward originally.
Tito heads to the right over bumper (floating).
Dan blows the sit whistle.
Tito stops, treads water.
Dan casts him BACK, to the original pile.
Tito turns toward the back pile, looks at the right over bumper, and heads for it.
ARGH
He is determined he is going to go get the floating bumper to his right side, rather than heading back to the original pile, where he was sent.
THAT'S the kind of stuff I'm talking about.
H-A-R-D H-E-A-D
(FWIW, what Dan did was toss a bumper over Tito's head to the original pile, and then Tito happily went and got it. He said if you get 2 refusals, SIMPLIFY).
I'm 99% certain Tito knew what Dan wanted him to do. He just didn't really think it was what he wanted to do at that time, the floating bumper looked a lot more interesting than the pile up on the shore.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Thanks for the illustration Barb. Honestly this doesn't seem like being stubborn, what you've described is HARD! If the pond is that small -- 30 feet by 60 feet, and the side bumper is floating, so less than 15 feet away from the dog, that is a difficult thing. 
From your training descriptions, Tito has NOT had very much work with this, even though you've been training with Dan for many months, once a week will not allow you very much progress on drills like this. You can't expect the dog to KNOW something when it's practiced that rarely. It's not fair to blame him for being stubborn when he is trying something and just getting it wrong. And even if he's had a number of sessions with Dan, they are so spaced out in time, the dog has probably forgotten the previous week's lesson by the time you try it again. Makes for difficult learning. It's like if you only practiced articles once a week in class and never at home, geeze how long would it take the dog to put together a full pile? A long time. 
Now if you were training on these very specific skills/drills on your own on a regular basis, and after much repetition the dog was still doing this, I would say either your not that great of a trainer or the dog really is not biddable. I don't think either is true. 




hotel4dogs said:


> To give an example of what I'm talking about....it's not really a lack of momentum, it's more like a lack of, hmmm.....cooperation???
> 
> Cheating pond. Short swim across, maybe 20 yards if even that. Narrower in the other direction, only about 10 yards wide.
> Tito on one end, bumper pile on the opposite end. Bumper pile is fairly visible, on land a short distance out of the water. NOT the first time we've done this drill. He has been quite successful with it, doing it in parts, and doing it all together.
> ...


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> the floating bumper looked a lot more interesting than the pile up on the shore


What you are describing to me I interpret as lack of effort taking the easy way out. "Why should I swim all the way back there when this one is HERE. If I go ahead and get it can take it back and I won't have any more pressure."
If he does get it I would not be above handling him all the way back to the pile I wanted. Handle him back to the spot where he made the mistake and then take him back to pile. When he gets there "GOOOD"
That way he doesn't win you do! Either way he learns he is going to go where *you* want him to go.
Repeat it.
If he goes for the floating bumper on second cast refusal he gets in *TROUBLE*


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

By the way this little session you were doing will come in real handy in a Masters when the diversion/poison bird is thrown that distance from dog or closer. You will see it.


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