# Rib spring, maturing and front legs



## GoldenSail

To my novice understanding--yes. In fact I have been told that east/west can correct itself when the ribs spring and that a good front can go pigeon-toed when the chest springs. (Key word is 'can').


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## HovawartMom

I think if you added front,back and stack pictures,it would help!.


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## rappwizard

Do you have photos of Jack as an 8 week old pup, and do they show a prominent post sternum? How about the width of his chest? Wide? Narrow? He's 9 months old right now and, depending on how fast or slow the lines that he comes from matures, his chest is going to appear, disappear, and (hopefully) appear and eventually drop. Then you should see him stand better under himself. 

And of course, rib spring will help, but a nice chest will help too, if not more. For now, Jack is young and growing. You are going to see a lot of changes from now, until around the age of 3. I would revisit his 8 week old photos if you have any--those should ring true. And your breeder can certainly give you the ultimate lowdown on how Jack's line develops (JMHO).


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## HiTideGoldens

I'll take stacked pictures this weekend and post them. He does have a tendency to go slightly easty westy right now too. He didn't have either of these at 8 weeks, so I wonder if these are things that generally correct themselves in the dog's body maturing process. I just feel like I want him to be mature - at least physically- now! Lol. I'm not the best at being patient! 

How far apart do you stack the front legs? In my handling class they said the width of the head is how far apart the front legs should be. Not sure if that's applicable to all breeds?


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## rappwizard

This is directly from our breed standard: "Chest between forelegs at least as wide as a man’s closed hand including thumb, with well developed forechest. Brisket extends to elbow."

I've always been taught to space the front legs with that imaginary man's fist in mind; I can't use mine, as mine is small, even for a woman's!


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## GoldenSail

rappwizard said:


> This is directly from our breed standard: "Chest between forelegs at least as wide as a man’s closed hand including thumb, with well developed forechest. Brisket extends to elbow."
> 
> I've always been taught to space the front legs with that imaginary man's fist in mind; I can't use mine, as mine is small, even for a woman's!


I always wondered about this--when it says including thumb does that mean the thumb is held against the fist or extended out?


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## rappwizard

One man has demonstrated that portion of the standard to me--and held his thumb next to his fist. However, to be honest, I extend my thumb out a bit because my hand, as a woman's, is smaller than a man's. My hands (and feet) are actually smaller than most women's.

To me, it shows how the standard is really a blueprint to be used to a certain degree--and that a lot goes into developing an eye for the dog, and what looks good for your dog--good handlers certainly have these "eyes" and so do good judges and breeders!


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## HiTideGoldens

OMG. Ok, this just shows how people who are used to showing different breeds don't always know anything about other breeds. I was in class trying to stack his *flipping* legs as wide as his head and wondering why it just wouldn't work. Then I'm watching him in our yard and thinking..."holy smokes, if he free stacks like this in shows he's never going to free stack properly." In re-reading the standard I think he's ok but I'm still anxious for his ribs to spring. I'm officially joining you two in the rib spring waiting game!!!!

I was there when the litter was evaluated and Jack had a nice prominent post-sternum (not overdone though) that was in balance with his rear. I don't have any good stacked photos at that age though. He was the one pup that I missed taking photos of during the evaluation. Our breeder has said that his head will come back last around age 2 and that around 18-24 months he should be fairly mature, physically. But that he'll probably not be completely filled out until he's 3.


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## GoldenSail

Welcome to the club 

I was shown to hand stack a little wider than what the dog naturally stands out right now so she looks like she has more chest. When it comes to free-stacking you get what you get (unless maybe you are wickedly good at it).


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## rappwizard

Welcome to the Got Ribs? club, GoldenJack! GoldenSail and I find that the bumpers are white, the frisbees blue, air is clear and grass is green but patience is a bit thin. Do we need to set up our own Social Group with a rib logo?

First owner whose golden earns points sends a bucket of ribs to the other two? Hmmmm. . .it's close to lunch time here and I'm getting hungry!


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## HiTideGoldens

Seriously, sounds good! 

Ok, about ribs springing....does this happen overnight? slowly? What age does this generally happen? Am I really going to be waiting 15 months for this?


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## GoldenSail

Rib spring is variable ask your breeder. I am told that generally it can happen slowly over the first couple of years and with bitches having a litter will help hasten it. 

Scout is almost 16 months and she is still skinny and rather bald. At this rate I am thinking maybe by the time she is 3? I've seen pictures of one of her brothers though around a year and he looked pretty filled out in comparison to her so I even wonder how litter variable this is. I would love to see Scout's sisters as Scout was the biggest girl in the litter but right now she is such a skinny little thing and toward the low end of the standard.


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## HiTideGoldens

Our breeder has a male that's 2 years old from Jack's sire and dam. (Jack's litter was a repeat breeding.) His body looks infinitely more mature than Jack and he looks like a 'big boy.' He is beautiful, the lucky boy even took WD the first day of his first show. But they waited until he was ready to send him out. I've seen other dogs out of Jack's sire and at 1 year they don't seem to be physically mature. But several of them that I've seen finished before they were 2.... so really I'm not sure there's any way to predict anything!


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## HiTideGoldens

I was talking to our breeder today and she said that the dog she has (who's almost 2) who has the same sire and dam as Jack has been very slow to mature. She said his chest hasn't dropped yet, so they're waiting on that. Apparently we have a year plus of waiting for Jack's ribs to spring/chest to drop. :bowl::bowl::bowl::bowl::bowl:


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## rappwizard

I was talking to a friend who owns one of Mac's sisters. She said Mac's sister still looks like a puppy, in her opinion. Mac and I went to the dock diving lake this past weekend and she played with some golden buddies. One was a 15 month old youngster, also a bitch, and they were running and playing tag with a toy on the dock and to be honest, I couldn't tell who was the baby (and Mac is just past 24 months) they both looked like goofy pups running around. I always thought that the big bones on the English goldens meant you would see a dog that is fast to mature, but I've had more than one person tell me that many English lines are slow(er) to mature. Seems like Mac is a Brit!


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## GoldenSail

Maybe I am crazy but it is hard noticing subtle changes when you look at your dog every day. So, I took a piece of rope and wrapped it tightly around Scout's chest--in the armpits and just behind the shoulder blades then put a knot in it where the end met with the middle part. Now if I *think* she is getting more filled out I can pull out my rope and see :

Rappwizard--do you mind sending me Mac's pedigree? I never knew she had English lines. Scout has some (not a lot, but enough worth noting) mostly through her Meadowpond lineage.


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## rappwizard

GoldenSail said:


> Maybe I am crazy but it is hard noticing subtle changes when you look at your dog every day. So, I took a piece of rope and wrapped it tightly around Scout's chest--in the armpits and just behind the shoulder blades then put a knot in it where the end met with the middle part. Now if I *think* she is getting more filled out I can pull out my rope and see :
> 
> Rappwizard--do you mind sending me Mac's pedigree? I never knew she had English lines. Scout has some (not a lot, but enough worth noting) mostly through her Meadowpond lineage.


This is Mac's sister, Baci, on K9data--I have not entered Mac on k9data yet since Mac hasn't had any big, big wins--Mac took a minor RWB from Am-Bred and she went second out of four in Am-Bred at the local golden specialty--this sister was the pick bitch--Mac was the third pick in the litter--she had a brother that was the first pick male and took a major RWD. This sister developed a bit faster--went Best Puppy several times, took puppy Sporting Group placements several times, went minor RWB from the puppy class.

If you click on Chardine in Love with Toasty you will see the English golden retrievers in the pedigree on the dam's side--I didn't realize that Meadowpond also had English in them too--so many breeders seek those English genes! I had made a comment about how Mac was maturing slowly to a friend and was told that it can be a trait from the English lines--I do not know how true that is or not! Hope this helps! 

http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=317203


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## HiTideGoldens

I didn't know Mac was a Rotten baby! He's a stunner!! 

That's interesting about the English lines being slower to mature. I wonder if that's true for all english lines or just some?

GoldenSail, not sure if you've tried this or not, but I've been using the Isle of Dogs Royall Jelly shampoo. I was trying to "will" coat onto Jack for awhile (shockingly, with no success) and bought it on a whim. I'm not sure if it's the shampoo or a coincidence, but his coat seems to be coming in a lot more in the past month. It's worth a shot if you haven't tried it.


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## diana_D

It all depends on the lines, some mature well after 2, some well after 3, going on 4  As for good spring of ribs, if it's not there during puppyhood(6-8 weeks) I doubt it will ever be. 

As for coat, genetics plays a major role in it, too.


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## GoldenSail

Well, I guess on another look only some of Scout's Meadowpond ancestors had the english lines like this one. Teasel would be River's dam and Scout was linebred on River.


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## rappwizard

GoldenSail said:


> Well, I guess on another look only some of Scout's Meadowpond ancestors had the english lines like this one. Teasel would be River's dam and Scout was linebred on River.


I know with Mac she's appears to be taking after her dam's side of the family in terms of development--her dam didn't finish her CH until she was close to 4--she was shown as a puppy to get experience but then she was shown very sparingly for the next couple of years or so, between the ages of 2 to 4. To my knowledge, she was not bred during that time.

If Scout is taking after Teasel, I wonder if Teasel developed quickly, and/or finished quickly? If that might give you some type of indication? That is just a thought.

And Thank you GoldenJack for the kind words about Mac's pedigree! Mac is always getting confused for being a "he" thanks to my husband's insistence she be given a guy's name in honor of Apple Computers, a product that he loves--and I do admit she's got a bit of a bucket head, no doubt thanks to Rotten. Now there's a quick study--CH by 2; SDHF by 3 and BOB winner of Westminster by age 4--not too shabby.


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## Ljilly28

Jack will mature so much between now and age 3 you won't even believe it. My grandfather always said look at them at 8 weeks and then not again until age 3!


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## GoldenSail

rappwizard said:


> I know with Mac she's appears to be taking after her dam's side of the family in terms of development--her dam didn't finish her CH until she was close to 4--she was shown as a puppy to get experience but then she was shown very sparingly for the next couple of years or so, between the ages of 2 to 4. To my knowledge, she was not bred during that time.
> 
> If Scout is taking after Teasel, I wonder if Teasel developed quickly, and/or finished quickly? If that might give you some type of indication? That is just a thought.


I dunno--I just thought it interesting when you said english lines supposedly can take longer to mature because I knew Scout had some. Like Mac, Scout's dam didn't finish until 4. (But she picked up a 5pt major, not shabby).

So the question is--which one of our dog's will be the first to graduate the Got Ribs Club?


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