# Ideas for Proofing Stays?



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

This is the same old problem I've been dealing with since before joining GRF last year. And er, I may have posted questions concerning how to fix this before as well. Rather than revive an old thread, I decided to start a fresh new one.... 

*How do you guys fix sit and down stays for a dog with seperation anxiety? *

According to my instructor: Jacks is a very nervous and silly dog. 

It doesn't matter that there is no reward for him when he breaks a wait or stay and goes running to me. He just wants to get to me because I'm his security blanket. 

He knows his stays and does out of sight stays at home for up to 5 minutes on the sit and even 10 minues on the down. But when we go somewhere where his stress levels go up, that's where he has all of the problems. 

Things I'm planning to do:

*Buy a lunge line and use it to put a LOT of distance between us when we practice.* I'm going to use a pole or a tree so I can use the line to keep him from running to me and hopefully correct him when he starts twitching. 

And I'm also planning to drive over to my sister's home a couple times a week and get her to partner up with me. *She will hold the leash and give him a pop when he so much as twitches. *

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*Things that have worked to improve his stays to get us to the point we are at right now - *

*No rewards from me. This sounds horrible but I was to cut down on his excitement level about getting me to return to him. <- This helped stop him from jumping up out of a stay when I return to heel position. 

*Longer stays in calm and relaxed areas, when and where he's more likely to feel comfortable sitting or lying. 

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That's about all I have right now. 

*Do you have any suggestions that might help us?* :uhoh:

Other suggestions I've gotten: 

+ Put a toy or a treat behind him so that gets his focus off of running to me. 

+ Put a garbage can or a pylon in front of him to reinforce the stay position. 

+ Practice stays on a carpet to reinforce him staying on the spot.

**** I have no idea how this would work, but when driving home from class last night, I was literally thinking about paying a visit to Home Depot and finding a board we can practice stays on. And this board would have a eye hook to hook the leash to. And maybe there would even be a way to hook the leash tighter to keep him in a down. <- This is something I'd prefer to do over the long line method. Do you think something like that would work? <- I would practice these strictly in our yard where he's a bit more comfortable and relaxed and start with short durations. I could also buy a car mat and put a hook on it to do the same job for class. And if he broke the stay and came running, he'd have this mat dragging after him.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I wouldn't pop him for breaking, that's just going to make him more anxious. Just tell him no and gently replace him. If he is using breaking as an excuse to bring you to him then have someone else put him back in position.

Have you tried having someone else rewarding the dog during stays? That can be very beneficial for some dogs....they never know who might decide to walk up and give them a treat, which has ring carry-over because there's always a judge/steward in the ring.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I wouldn't pop him for breaking, that's just going to make him more anxious. Just tell him no and gently replace him. If he is using breaking as an excuse to bring you to him then have someone else put him back in position.


I thought of that re/popping. I guess I should have said that he's not one of those dogs who would be getting major league pop corrections. If I did anything like that, I'd get the evasive zoomies. :doh:

When I say pop, I mean pretty much very calm correction from somebody he knows and trusts - like my sister who is like his surrogate mom. And it's more like a tightening on the leash when he looks like he's going to get up. I could never do actual corrections when he's in neurotic mode. 

That's actually why I'm waffling about using a stay board with him. Simply because while I want him to work through his issues even when he's stressing out... I don't want training to be too scary to be fun for him. :no:

He does break and twitch because it brings the reward of me drawing closer or going back in to him, you are right. <- The problem about asking our instructor to put him back in place for me is that he refuses to go into the sit or down for her and he really gets freaked out. :doh:



> Have you tried having someone else rewarding the dog during stays? That can be very beneficial for some dogs....they never know who might decide to walk up and give them a treat, which has ring carry-over because there's always a judge/steward in the ring.


Yesish. Our instructor did it two weeks ago when we went back to class after winter break. And she did it a little last fall. Sometimes it works - or it keeps him distracted for a little while at least.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Have you thought about using something like Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol? I found that when I worked on this, my dog's stays improved ---dramatically--, including his out of sight stays. By reducing the dog's anxiety it can often make it --much-- easier for the dog to stay.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Another route to try could be to do a lot of heavy proofing while you are right there with him. That way when you are farther from him but nothing else challenging is going on it will seem easier than before.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

RedDogs said:


> Have you thought about using something like Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol? I found that when I worked on this, my dog's stays improved ---dramatically--, including his out of sight stays. By reducing the dog's anxiety it can often make it --much-- easier for the dog to stay.


What is that? 

Admittedly - keeping everything relaxed and calm was what helped the stays at home. I'm just at my wits end about the stays at class which seem to get better and then he has a day like yesterday when he seemed worse than ever. 

And I'm not a nervous or anxious person at class and he's fine with everything else - including his stands which are rock solid, because I'm standing within 6 feet. It just those fangled sits and downs when he doesn't like me being more than 6 feet away from him.

He will do the sit and down stays when I'm standing nearby at class. <- One way I've been proofing is putting him in a down stay while I help out with figure eights, about 6-10 feet away. Because I'm a short distance away he's been relaxed.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Oh something else I did when Flip was young and I was worried about him and seperation anxiety....Tie him up somewhere and give him a nice bone to chew on. Then go about the same distance you would be on a stay. That way he can work on being comfortable being away from you while having something to distract him from the fact that you aren't right next to him, and he doesn't have to worry about holding a position.

When I did this with Flip I tied his leash to the leg of my dining table and gave him a nice meaty raw bone while I went and watched tv in the living room (I have an open floorplan so he could still see me).


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I need to think of all my ideas at once so I don't keep posting!

I also would not put him in a line up of dogs anymore until he is comfortable doing the stays outside of the lineup. You don't want him to begin to associate his anxiety with being in a line up.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I also would not put him in a line up of dogs anymore until he is comfortable doing the stays outside of the lineup. You don't want him to begin to associate his anxiety with being in a line up.


I'll keep that in mind for next class. <= Our instructor had me put him at the opposite side, facing the other dogs. This was to rule out whether him sitting next to other dogs was causing his anxiety. He still got worked up, but... I agree, it might cause problems for him. Especially if he's sitting next to another dog who is being corrected for breaking (yes, that does up his stress level). 

Keep the ideas coming<:


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

There is an updated version not yet online. Here's the old one. My understanding is that the no reward markers are not used in the more recent one:
Protocol for relaxation

If you do a google search you will come up with a lot more about it.

Even just going from day 1-7 with my younger dog had a HUGE impact on his stay behaviors in a class/group environment. We went from me not being able to be 20' away (even when he had a great bone/chew/etc) to me being able to walk around the large room, go further away, stay away, etc. His breaking previously definitely had some anxiety components (as he wasn't eating stuff he normally would), but also from a lack of training. I was really surprised that the RP made such a big difference, especially for as little of it that we had done (...I need to revisit it!!)


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Thanks Red Dogs! 

I think you described this to me before and it definitely did help at home with the training. When I first posted about my problems with stays last summer, I couldn't even get a certain distance away from him at home without him jumping up. 

And forget about getting 6 feet away from him at class.

So definitely this method works. Where I'm having a problem is getting further away from him without him sliding backwards. 

I think that there is going to be an open floor where I go to classes next week (maybe), so I won't be too disruptive if I take my stay mat and try this method there. 

@stay mat - I stopped at Home Depot with the original idea to buy a board to work stays on, but I found a heavy Martha Stewart welcome mat that might do the job. I attached a handle to it to thread the long line through. That way I can tug on the leash to correct any twitching and it will be a downward tug instead of him getting the idea I'm telling him to come. 

I've had him lying on it the last 10 minutes or so and he looks perfectly relaxed, even when I did a few test tugs. <- But that's here at home. Might be a different story when I take it somewhere else where his stress level is usually higher.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

My best advice (in a nutshell b/c I'm supposed to be catching up on work!) would be:

*Avoid corrections - leash pops and such. You don't want to add stress/anxiety.

*Progress s*l*o*w*l*y and systematically. If you rush this, you'll constantly take three steps forward and two steps back.

*Work on forced separation at home. Teach him to be okay behind a baby gate in one room while you're in another. Or tether him somewhere (like Jodi suggested) while you're a distance away. This is often one of the first things we do with true S.A. dogs -- get them comfortable *not* being able to be with you on their terms, but teaching it in a familiar environment. 

* If he's nervous around the other dogs in the group line up, work him off to the side. Have a friend with you. This person's job is to go in and feed when he's good (try and pick the moments where you see relaxed (not tense) body posture. This person also goes in and re-sets him if he breaks. Breaking doesn't gain access to you anymore. No correction -- the person just re-sets him. 

* I've seen people have good results putting the dog's treat bag behind him. It's like it becomes a bit of security blanket and helps take all the focus off the fact that "OMG... mom is WAYYYYYYY over there." Then when your helper comes and feeds, she takes a treat from that pouch.

* When you return to him, be very matter-of-fact. Calm petting only. When you release, be the same way. No big hurrahs even when he's been super successful. We want to dial down ALL the emotion in the exercise. Ideally, we want him almost a bit bored with it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> *Progress s*l*o*w*l*y and systematically. If you rush this, you'll constantly take three steps forward and two steps back.


Don't I know it. !

I practiced stays in the same room as him tonight because I was testing the new mat thing. Normally I do a portion of the stay while out of sight. Doing stays at home in a relaxed environment is not an issue for him. I did baby step until we got to that point. 

My problem is finding a way to help him figure out that he should be just as comfortable at class and different places. 

So we went to class in one place on Monday. He did 3 and 5 minute stays and did not break them. He was totally relaxed. 

Where we went to class on Wednesday, he was a nervous wreck and kept breaking or twitching or getting up and zooming to me. 

^ Last fall it was the other way around. He'd be a nervous wreck at the other training place and happy and a plum at the place on Wednesday. <- In fact, we did a show at this place last fall and the only "bad" thing he did was going down on the sit stay. He remained in place and did the down stay perfectly. 

So that's about where I am and you can see why I'm just about pulling my hair out over his flakiness the other day.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Boy, this sounds exactly like my first golden who -- with me struggling with this for years -- ended up so freaked out about lining up with a group of dogs I couldn't even sit him next to another dog to take a picture. This is why I QUIT obedience with him.
STOP your novel ideas and SEEK HELP from a good, experienced OTCH person!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I know some people who use what sounds like you are describing--the stay mat. It's a wooden box that is also used for fronts and other things, and they use it for the sit. If the dog comes off the box it's like a self correction since it is up a little higher.

I have been lightly tugging on the leash with mine and praising her for holding even though she's feeling pulled. I've also done groups where the instructor has toys that she is throwing around, and food on the floor. Scout personally couldn't resist hearing 'kitty kitty' but that was several months ago. If your dog is anxious though, I don't think you want to do these proofing things until he is calmer, and then introduce them very mildly and slowly.


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## bbuzz (Aug 8, 2010)

My girl had some serious separation anxiety and had the same issues as your dog. She was 7 when we got her so the issues were very ingrained, however now it is a very different story. The key was consistency and it takes time and repeatition as often as possible. 

You need your boy to understand the process. He needs to understand u are not leaving him and the only way he will get to you is by staying till released no matter what this is his only positive option. With sash the best thing I ever did was start practicing stays on our walks. I would randomly make her stay for varied times and distances, with some i was out of sight some within sight. If she left her stay early (as much as standing up) I would verbally tell her no and walk all the way back (I have a bad back and would often be trudging up a hill in pain to put her back on a stay but it was well worth it!) 

Sasha learnt that the only way was to stay and now she has an amazing stay in any situation. Take baby steps and try not to put your boy in a situation were he will fail. If he does mess up correct him and reflect on it at a later stage to work out where u went wrong. 

Sash was once like your boy, but now I can happily leave her on a stay anywhere for long periods of time ( she regularly sit out yoga for an hour not tied up happily on stay) so there is hope for your boy. I should add that in addition to teaching stay I trained her in other areas which may have impacted her successful stays e.g not barking or whining when left at home or during our departure and arrival.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> STOP your novel ideas and SEEK HELP from a good, experienced OTCH person!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Hehhehe<:

He stumped a few OTCH persons at classes the past couple years and he's going to classes at two seperate places so I can get that help with this problem. That's all in progress. Believe me, I'm not just telling everyone else to go to obedience classes and staying home myself. 

I thought I'd tap people here too for ideas as well.... he is one of those dogs who is brilliant in every other way, so there's no chance of me quitting on him. 



> I know some people who use what sounds like you are describing--the stay mat. It's a wooden box that is also used for fronts and other things, and they use it for the sit. If the dog comes off the box it's like a self correction since it is up a little higher.


Yep. They use those where I train (front machine). Somebody suggested I train the stays on one of those boxes, but I felt that would stress the guy out too much. A mat is a bit less drastic.

@proofing - 

Monday's class, the instructor paces around, weaves through the dogs, pretends to be eating, talks to the dogs, has everyone clap, throw tennis balls, etc. And everyone does the 3 and 5 minutes stays.

Wednesday class is a bit more calmer and quieter (aside from the noises from the agility side of the building). And they just do the 1 and 3 minute stays. 

^ Guess which class he had more problems with this past week. >'<


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> *Avoid corrections - leash pops and such. You don't want to add stress/anxiety.


Definitely agree. 

Another thing I've been doing is not looking at him. So if I look at the space above his head or at the ceiling, he doesn't think I'm giving him come hither stares or correctional glares. 



> * If he's nervous around the other dogs in the group line up, work him off to the side. Have a friend with you. This person's job is to go in and feed when he's good (try and pick the moments where you see relaxed (not tense) body posture. This person also goes in and re-sets him if he breaks. Breaking doesn't gain access to you anymore. No correction -- the person just re-sets him.


I think this would be the absolute best method. I just have to figure out how to do this at class.... 

The problem with our instructors at place #1 and place #2, they both are "strong personalities" and he's a little cowed and silly around them. If either of them tried to put him in a sit or down it would have the same effect as if they were trying to alpha pin him. As it is, if they take the leash he goes overboard with the spinning and bouncing silliness. 

My two older sisters who have helped me at home and who I'd trust to put him back into position without getting him silly - the one works evenings and the other is usually driving her daughter to tennis lessons in the evening. :doh: 


> * When you return to him, be very matter-of-fact. Calm petting only. When you release, be the same way. No big hurrahs even when he's been super successful. We want to dial down ALL the emotion in the exercise. Ideally, we want him almost a bit bored with it.


I think I have to work on this too. My gut instinct is to go overboard with the praise when he's successful because I want him to know that's what I want - but I do agree having a calm dog who falls asleep during the stays is something I _really_ want. 

I'm sure I've grumbled about this in the past, but this is the first time I've had a dog with a problem like this. 

Our first golden that I trained a little (copying my older sister who was training her golden) had perfect stays. 

I used the same methods + with Danny who never broke a single stay in his life except for the 2 shows when he decided the hovering judge was evil. 

I used the same methods to teach Jacks, but obviously he's the first golden I've owned who is this clingy and needy. :uhoh: 

Things I'm planning to do - 

1. Use the stay mat this weekend. I'm thinking that the snow will be melted enough so I can take him somewhere to practice short distance stays. <- I'd practice out in our driveway or the road in front, except it is either muddy or flooded. We live on a hill, so when the snow melts, a veritable river flows past our driveway. :doh:

2. Daily stays away from home. Use the same method as mentioned by Red Dogs. <- This is a pain because there is one quiet storefront where I always trained my previous guys but Jacks is terrified of the automatic door at this door because it bangs open. I will have to find a different spot that is quiet and low stress. 

3. Take the stay mat to class next week. This means I need to get to class early enough so I don't feel weird lugging a heavy welcome mat in with me. And I get to test whether it will work in the class environment without too many people seeing us flub if not. : <- This does depend on whether or not he's comfortable on the mat in "away from home" places this weekend. 

*Any other suggestions?* Please guys don't think I've been shooting down any ideas or not open to different methods. Or reminders as to what I shouldn't be doing (corrections, for example). I'm absorbing and _needy_ over here.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

The only concern I'd have with the mat, is if he decided to come find you, this scary mat thing is going to be chasing him and confirm that he shouldn't be away from you.

Is there any way you can tie him to something secure, or get someone to sit and hold the leash? I wouldn't want it tight either, he's got to have the choice to get up. 

Someone else going in to put him back in a down/sit might work quite well. Not 'legal' but I know of a few dogs who have 'helpers' who sit in the front row during stays so they think twice about leaving.

Would he do a stay for someone else? Might be something to try, you leave the training area totally and someone else take him out and do a stay with him - he may not have the same 'need' to go find them.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Just to update -

We got good stays yesterday at class - he even tucked his paw on the down stay. I'm not sure if that is all of the stay-mat proofing work or the fact I opted to babysit him (I stayed within 6 feet). It's probably a little bit of both. Plus, I've been tugging at the collar to proof the stay and he's been pulling back like he should.

We do have the official OK to bring the mat to class. I'm planning on it. 

Anyhoo. He got four (we did stays with the Open class before ours and then the regular Novice Stays) successful stays at class yesterday. So I getting happy again. 


OHW. I thought I'd throw this in there... I was loving on his heeling during class. The instructor had all kinds of distractions going on on the outside of the ring (treats, toys, dumbbells, etc) and he was doing a perfect heel. So my head was getting mondo inflated.

Then the recalls came along. They were doing more distractions and proofing during the front, including people throwing a stuffed football squeaky around. Jacks' eyes got as big as saucers and I lost him. Somebody dropped the football and he went lunging after it and ran around the ring with his prize, playing keep away. :doh: And even afterwards when they were just holding the football, he still went into lala land watching the toy and waiting for it to drop on the floor. 

I guess the good thing is he's still young enough to be a goof.


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

I had some issues on down stays with Casey a couple of years ago. At a fun match he was jumped on and frightened by another dog and had trouble for a few weeks after that when I left the room on the out of sight downs (not sits, he was still fine with those...dogs are so situational!). I worked on him in both sits and downs using the oppositional reflex...standing opposite him pulling him toward me after telling him to stay. It worked really well to reinforce the idea of what stay was with him after he'd had it blown away by his "assault". I don't know if it would help you, but it is another thing you could try.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Another thing to proof, if you're using a lot of distraction and noise when he's doing stays is to do them in a very silent building where you can hear a pin drop, nobody is doing anything interesting and it's all rather boring. Some dogs don't know how to handle being in a trial where it is quiet like that for the first time and figure it's not a real stay because there's no show going on to keep them amused.

Been there, done that. Bad dog got bored and decided to come see if I had anything interesting because nobody was tempting him to move.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Bender said:


> Another thing to proof, if you're using a lot of distraction and noise when he's doing stays is to do them in a very silent building where you can hear a pin drop, nobody is doing anything interesting and it's all rather boring. Some dogs don't know how to handle being in a trial where it is quiet like that for the first time and figure it's not a real stay because there's no show going on to keep them amused.


Very true.... 

I think time goes by faster for them too when they are entertained the whole time. With Jacks he doesn't have time to think about being "alone" and panic. He's too busy watching everything else. :uhoh:

The place where I trained this past Wednesday generally is a bit more quiet during the stays (aside from the teeter clanging and barking sounds from the agility side). And it's usually there that he gets the most angsty and fidgetty. 

The other place is the one where there is a ton of distractions during the stays. Which, as long as nobody's throwing toys around, is OK.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

^^^ ^ ! 

I just don't know what more I can do? 

Jacks is back and forth when it comes to stays at class and at the last two fun matches we did. It's frustrating, but since I don't plan on filling out paperwork until we go a month with perfect stays at class... it's going to be a while before we start getting after that novice title. 

What makes it frustrating is I just did stays out in our yard. I situated myself so I was on the extreme opposite side of the yard, he could still see me but it was enough of a distance to up his anxiety.

During the sit stay, our neighbor came out of his house and brought his baying beagle. He let his dog go potty on our yard as he walked past, and fairly near where Jacks was doing his sit stay. Jacks perked up, but held his stay.

Also, the gun club was busy, and he definitely looked worried at each pop. But stayed.

Then my sister and her hub came over and drove up the driveway. Jacks watched them and wiggled, but held his stay. He even watched Arthur (collie) and my niece get out and while anxious to go greet, he held his stay.

I went in to release him and put him into the down stay. That was about the time that a rabbit went running past me and caught Jacks' attention. Jacks' head went UP and I could tell he was vibrating from wanting to chase the rabbit down. But he stayed.

Our cat came out and tried getting Jacks to get up and chase him. He flopped. Meandered closer. Flopped. Edged closer to Jacks and then scrammed for the bushes. Jacks held his stay.

Then my niece came RUNNING out talking a mile a minute. Jacks worships my niece and I could tell this was torture, but he held his stay.

So somewhere or other I've been doing something right as far as training him at home. And even when I take him out to parking lots and other places to do stay practice, I get solid work like this. <- He's so much better than he was last year at this time. 

But I'm pulling my hair out because he isn't that solid in class where he freaks out over little things like curtains blowing. >.<


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