# Breed/Show Attributes



## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

What do you breeders out there look for in a female pup when starting your breeding program? Do you look for different attributes in a female pup when choosing one to show? I see some of the kennels don't seem to title some of the dams used for breeding. Ha, I realize that the dam has a full time job but I'm curious.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Since no one chimed in, I'll take a stab at part of it. I don't think that the lack of titles are necessarily intentional. Perhaps the bitch just didn't finish for some reason and they're hoping to improve upon what they have by breeding her. I've heard that breeding even once can impact the ability to keep a bitch in show condition though, since some don't get their girlish figure back after having a litter and that may prevent the breeder from finishing her. I'm sure breeders can chime in on this with their experiences rather than me just speculating though .

But I can tell you with absolute certainty that puppy rearing isn't a life-long "full time job" for any bitch belonging to a reputable and ethical breeder....maybe at a puppy mill, but not a reputable breeder.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Lack of titles can be a lot of things - some breeders like to breed first, then spay and go compete. To be honest I'm leaning in that direction as I seem to notice a lot of older girls have smaller litters and more troubles whelping. Some breeders like to title the dogs then breed, so it depends. 

You have to decide what you're breeding for and what's important. Do you want a show dog or a hunting dog or a bit of both? If you don't plan to do any performance events is it really a big deal if that's not part of the pedigree? If you do plan to do performance events then look for dogs doing well in those events and see who they're from. Understand conformation so you know what to avoid and what you want.

When you look for a female, look at the pedigree and make sure there's no issues you will have to deal with as a breeder that will change things. Look at the relatives and everything you can find, look for longevity and how long those dogs lived and make sure there's nothing iffy. 

You may want to get a female from something different than what's around you or something that isn't related to too many popular sires so you have more options when it comes time to breed and you're looking too. And you may want to talk to local breeders to see what they would suggest or if one would work with you as a mentor, which can be helpful too.


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

Bumping Up


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I can't help you so much in the conformation area, but I can tell you what Yvonne Pfiefer of Tanbark Goldens has said about why she does not title all her girls. Almost all of her girls live with her. There is no way she can give an appropriate amount of time training to do each dog justice. Plus with bitches you have to deal with not being able to show while in season. So she chooses a few dogs to work with personally and title but not all.


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## wakemup (Feb 6, 2011)

I do think it's important for bitches to get at least SOME titles. That is certainly a personal decision for each individual breeder, but I like to get a dog out of a strong female line for the venue I am interested in for that pup. Heat cycles take them out of training IN PUBLIC for about six- eight weeks a year. My girls train and even show up to the fifth week of pregnancy, and train with me at home a bit once puppies are about four weeks old. An experienced breeder once told me that mental activity for the mother stimulated brain development in the developing unborn pups. As far as picking a puppy for future breeding, I try to go with the BEST STRUCTURED girl as to the breed standard at the 8 week evaluation. Next in importance is temperament test with an emphasis on birdiness. I am far from the expert of the world, but that is what feels right to me.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Bender said:


> You have to decide what you're breeding for and what's important. Do you want a show dog or a hunting dog or a bit of both? If you don't plan to do any performance events is it really a big deal if that's not part of the pedigree?


*How nice that our standard has answered this question for us.*

*"PRIMARILY A HUNTING DOG"*


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I do not have a breeding program nor do I plan to in the near future. However when selecting a foundation bitch I would look for the following attributes:

1. Sound of temperament
2. Sound of body with extensive health history in the pedigree and longevity
3. High drive in the field, high trainability
4. Physically I would seek a bitch with strong conformation traits in the areas which commonly lack in the breed, especially bitches : proper size and substance, depth of body, shortness of back/topline, headpiece, strong rear, good shoulder and upper arm, fluid movement and proper breed silhouette type

Boy don't we all want a bitch like this. I see so many people buy a bitch who turns out to be mediocre and they say "THIS IS MY FOUNDATION BITCH" and spend the next five generations of their breeding program digging themselves out of a hole. Dumb. Go and buy a better bitch. Start with excellent, not okay.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I've heard that breeding even once can impact the ability to keep a bitch in show condition though, since some don't get their girlish figure back after having a litter and that may prevent the breeder from finishing her.


Interesting. My breeder has goldens that are slower to mature and often finishes her bitches when they are older and after a litter or two. They do fine--and I would think you would want a bitch that can recover from a litter and go back to work quite easily: conformation, obedience, field, etc. I've even heard of having a litter to hasten the rib spring/filling out process in bitches.

Another possible consideration is how well do the dams whelp from the lines you are considering. I don't know that I would want a bitch that's family had a history of needing c-sections or had difficulties in whelping--no matter how wonderful the pedigree or structure!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> I do not have a breeding program nor do I plan to in the near future. However when selecting a foundation bitch I would look for the following attributes:
> 
> 1. Sound of temperament
> 2. Sound of body with extensive health history in the pedigree and longevity
> ...


Yes yes we do! But, reality is that there is no perfect dog, so you will probably have to give somewhere and try to improve upon that, right? Say you have a nice working girl, but she has an ugly head, all else is really nice. You don't throw out the baby with the bathwater--you have to weigh the good with the bad and decide. Now what if you have a beautiful bitch that lacks the field drive--throw her out? Depends on how much you value that drive and the probability that you can get it back in the next generation, right?

I understand too, that you are pretty fortunate if the first dog/bitch you get is able to finish and pass all clearances and not to take it for granted.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Yes yes we do! But, reality is that there is no perfect dog, so you will probably have to give somewhere and try to improve upon that, right? Say you have a nice working girl, but she has an ugly head, all else is really nice. You don't throw out the baby with the bathwater--you have to weigh the good with the bad and decide. Now what if you have a beautiful bitch that lacks the field drive--throw her out? Depends on how much you value that drive and the probability that you can get it back in the next generation, right?
> 
> I understand too, that you are pretty fortunate if the first dog/bitch you get is able to finish and pass all clearances and not to take it for granted.


My point here is if you set out buying a bitch puppy to be your foundation bitch, you need to pull off the blinders and be VERY SURE that what you have is of high enough quality to be the keystone of a great breeding program. SO many people buy a bitch and breed her and call her their foundation bitch regardless of her quality. Yeah she might have titles and clearances but does she really ADD or bring something to the table in the breeding program? Or are you having to breed 2, 3, 4 generations down to fix her problems? I absolutely agree that you will not find the perfect dog and every dog has faults to correct in a breeding program. You as the breeder must prioritize them. In my mind your "foundation bitch" should be as close to your ideal as you can manage. Some people WILL get lucky and find that their first try.

Some other thoughts. The first bitch you breed may not be your foundation bitch, but she may produce your foundation bitch. For example, a friend of mine has an 11 year old bitch who she bred four times. She produced a variety of titled dogs, several CHs, a SH, a TDX, etc. She says this is her foundation bitch but actually I believe she PRODUCED her foundation bitch. Out of one of those litters she kept a bitch who was bred a number of times to in turn produce several CHs and performance titled dogs, and from that bitch she has kept and bred now two generations down. The 2nd bitch (daughter of the original) has stamped her look in her breeding program. To me, it is the daughter and not the mother who is the foundation bitch.

Secondly, going back to my original paragraph, I have another friend who has purchased two bitches from another well known breeder. The first bitch she put a lot of performance titles on but the bitch was really not very good looking. She tried desperately to show her in conformation with little results, and she tried breeding her MANY times with NO resulting puppies. She purchased another bitch from the same breeder who looks very similar to the first. She (my friend) is caught between a rock and a hard place -- she wants to breed conformation champions with working titles, but she is starting with a bitch very deficient in the conformation department, and breeding her with pure show line males....so she's getting dogs who neither cut it in the breed ring nor have the aptitude for performance! She now has the daughter of the 2nd bitch and is wondering where to go. I really really wish she would start over with a really nice bitch and take it from there, and breed to something that would perpetuate not only the breed type but the working ability she wants to preserve.

Lastly, there have been, in the past 6 months, FOUR of my friends here in FL who have all bred to the SAME stud dog, who is a very handsome guy, but comical as his only qualification is he is the specials dog of a popular handler. Anyways, so here are FOUR litters from this same stud dog within a 100 mile radius in less than 6 months. Of course they will all keep a bitch for themselves out of their litters. Now my thought is, okay, if you REALLY want to do this right, you four should get together and decide who out of you has the BEST bitch, breed just her to this dog, and you all each keep one. Of course they think this idea is crazy. Of course they like some pocket change from selling pet puppies and of course all think their bitch is the best anyhow. Oh well.


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

Is it a common understanding when a breeder sells you a female pup with you the buyer being sole owner that you will breed at least once to a sire of their choice and give the breeder pick pup of that litter? I don't want to start a breeding program but I do want to have both genders to train and show. 
Now I understand why some of the Dams don't have titles. But like Wakemup, I like to see titles on both sides of the line. I want to know that there is performance behind that structure.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

k9Design, I found your post filled with information and very educational. Thanks!  I like learning about this!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks k9design a very enlightening post! I guess I was mostly confused by what you call mediocre and how you come to that conclusion, especially since no dog is perfect. I can't believe the friends all using the same dog--crazy!


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