# Crufts



## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Wish I could of been there myself and definitely didnt get to see enough of the goldies in the coverage:no: The bitch that won Best of Breed was lovely!! Must get tickets for next year!


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

Well forgive me for saying this, and i'm sure some will not agree but with some of the things you mention I have to ask one thing.....are they sacrificing beauty for the loss of the Golden Retriever breed! Big large feet, big heads, etc. None of that will cut it out there for what this dog really is, and that is a retriever....a bird dog. This is what this dog was created for from the beginning of time, and I blame those judges for allowing this to happen, they are the ones that over time wanted big heads, big feet, etc. so everyone followed this to try to win. I think it's very sad. Are some of those dogs pretty...of course they are.....but pretty don't cut it for what this dog truely is. A Golden Retriever can and should be a well put together dog, and of course nice looking. But they can be without all excess of huge feet and big heads that simply won't cut it out there in the field.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

I don't really know that much about showing but I thought that in this country (UK) many people who show also work their dogs in the field so they can achieve their Ch (and not just their sh ch) so I would imagine that many of the 500+ goldies there at crufts yesterday would also be working on their gundog certificate aswell, proving that they can spend all day in the field doing the job that they were bred to do. Isn't a big head and strong muzzle there to help them bring back a full sized pheasent? I have a typical english show style golden (her dad has his CH) and I know that if she were trained up to do it she would be able to spend all day working her bum off as she has plenty of energy when out, infact she comes alive when she is in the type of terrain that she was bred to be in!


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

Goldndust said:


> Well forgive me for saying this, and i'm sure some will not agree but with some of the things you mention I have to ask one thing.....are they sacrificing beauty for the loss of the Golden Retriever breed! Big large feet, big heads, etc. None of that will cut it out there for what this dog really is, and that is a retriever....a bird dog. This is what this dog was created for from the beginning of time, and I blame those judges for allowing this to happen, they are the ones that over time wanted big heads, big feet, etc. so everyone followed this to try to win. I think it's very sad. Are some of those dogs pretty...of course they are.....but pretty don't cut it for what this dog truely is. A Golden Retriever can and should be a well put together dog, and of course nice looking. But they can be without all excess of huge feet and big heads that simply won't cut it out there in the field.



Most of the dogs that are in the show room are also working dogs and spend much of their time out in the wet and mud retrieving birds from shoots.

Dont you ever put your glad-rags on, slap on some war paint and go and enjoy yourself?


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

Emma&Tilly said:


> I don't really know that much about showing but I thought that in this country (UK) many people who show also work their dogs in the field so they can achieve their Ch (and not just their sh ch) so I would imagine that many of the 500+ goldies there at crufts yesterday would also be working on their gundog certificate aswell, proving that they can spend all day in the field doing the job that they were bred to do. Isn't a big head and strong muzzle there to help them bring back a full sized pheasent? I have a typical english show style golden (her dad has his CH) and I know that if she were trained up to do it she would be able to spend all day working her bum off as she has plenty of energy when out, infact she comes alive when she is in the type of terrain that she was bred to be in!


Thank you for your quote. Its nice to hear from someone that obviously knows what they are talking about. :wave:


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Lestorm...just out of interest, how long does it take them to judge soooo many goldies?? I MUST get tickets for next year! 

Also what did you think to the flattie that won best of Group? I know nothing about flat coats but he looked so lovely!


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

Emma&Tilly said:


> Lestorm...just out of interest, how long does it take them to judge soooo many goldies?? I MUST get tickets for next year!
> 
> Also what did you think to the flattie that won best of Group? I know nothing about flat coats but he looked so lovely!


My sister used to breed flatcoats and won best of breed at Crufts. They really are a wonderful breed and I wish the group winner lots of luck.

There has never been a Golden BIS at Crufts. I think that this has to be because the best hasnt either been entered or won its class. 

We arrived at Crufts at around 1.30 and sat glued to the seat until BIB was chosen at around 6pm. So take a packed lunch and visit the bathroom before you take your seat. Its worth the travelling time so do it. Tickets were £14 each and could be bought at the door. Car park was £7 and free buses take you to the front door of the NEC.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

Pheasants aren't that big of a bird. There are much larger birds that are retrieved then a pheasant and big heads has nothing to do with it, nor large feet. 

Getting a gundog certificate does not prove they can cut it out there all day in a field, it just proves they can do the job...but not that they can do it all day in which is expected of the working dog and deal with all the terrain and waters that are actually out there that there working in and dealing with.


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

Goldndust said:


> Pheasants aren't that big of a bird. There are much larger birds that are retrieved then a pheasant and big heads has nothing to do with it, nor large feet.
> 
> Getting a gundog certificate does not prove they can cut it out there all day in a field, it just proves they can do the job...but not that they can do it all day in which is expected of the working dog and deal with all the terrain and waters that are actually out there that there working in and dealing with.


The pics you have on your profile are of dogs with lovely heads. Are you saying that they would not be up to working in the field for a day or so? Please refer back to the breed standard. In a show ring the breed standard is the aim of each and every breeder and exhibitor.


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## Boofy Bonbon (Feb 25, 2007)

Shame we couldn't make it, but did watch and tape it on the tv.

The Flatcoat (Simon) was gorgeous, I'm sure with luck he will go far.

So, when can we see expect to see the Lestorm group at Crufts?? :woot2::crossfing


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

What is sad is that today,you have 2 different lines when they should really be one.
A golden was created as a hunting tool before being just pretty.How many of the show golden could actually hunt,today? and vice versa?.
Are any of the show dogs,aptitude tested like in Fr?.


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

This is for those that think we breed for show and not for the standard required for excellent gun dogs.

General Appearance: A symmetrical, powerful active dog, sound and well put together, not clumsy nor long in the leg, displaying a kindly expression and possessing a personality that is eager, alert and self-confident. Primarily a hunting dog, *he should be shown in hard working condition.* Overall appearance, balance, gait and purpose to be given more emphasis than any of his component parts.

Head: Broad in skull, slightly arched laterally and longitudinally without prominence of frontal or occipital bones. Good stop. Foreface deep and wide, nearly as long as skull. Muzzle when viewed in profile, slightly deeper at stop than at tip; when viewed from above, slightly wider at stop than at tip. No heaviness in flews. Removal of whiskers for show purposes optional. Beautiful!

Feet: Medium size, round and compact, with thick pads. Excess hair may be trimmed to show natural size and contour. Saw lots of those


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Personally I would have thought I'd died and gone to heaven seeing the Goldens that Marilyn has described! I love the big heads, the feet...oooo I think I am gettin' the vapors... 

Admittedly though, I know very little about the working aspects. I think while Goldens were bred to retrieve, hunting in general is not as popular as maybe it once was (meaning no disrespect here to hunters...just that super Stop and Shop now carries most of what once had to be killed for dinner) and perhaps the breed has evolved somewhat because of this? I also imagine there are field devotees who can provide more info - I find the whole discussion fascinating!


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I have no idea about the UK, but here in the states you dont find many "show" dogs out in the field. And you don't find many trial dogs in the show ring.. there are very rare exceptions, but they are rare.... the most you find is some show people going for the JH or WC or maybe even the WCX..but these are minimal and most good working dogs do this well before they are a year old...
my Dixie is only 43 lb and she can get after a gliding down duck up to a quarter mile and race or swim back with it just fine..
Golndust is right on track.. too many breeders are just not concerned that we maintain this ability in the golden retriever.. it is getting more and more difficult to find a really good field bred golden... it is too bad, because the good ones are really great hunters.. 
Often when I am running a field trial or hunt test, I am the only one there with a golden... that is a shame..


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Funny...I always thought my little Marty at a lithe 55 pounds was "poorly bred". He is so light on his feet and quite stealth actually. I wonder what his potential would have been for field trials...


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

Lestorm said:


> This is for those that think we breed for show and not for the standard required for excellent gun dogs.
> 
> General Appearance: A symmetrical, powerful active dog, sound and well put together, not clumsy nor long in the leg, displaying a kindly expression and possessing a personality that is eager, alert and self-confident. Primarily a hunting dog, *he should be shown in hard working condition.* Overall appearance, balance, gait and purpose to be given more emphasis than any of his component parts.
> 
> ...


the standard for a good field dog is proved in the field, not in the show ring. You cannot look at a dog and decide if it is a great field dog.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Is maybe some of the problem that people that solely work their dogs will try and breed to be better and better at hunting, so are maybe ending up lighter in bone, taller, so they can easily run around all day long...and the people who soley show and breed their dogs will try and breed so they are better in the showring...so maybe bigger heads, heavier coats that judges go for...but as long as people that show and breed stick to the breed standard (which of course is the aim) and the breed standard surely has been written to make sure that the dogs are the size and shape to do what they are meant to do, and then on top of that many show people will prove their dogs in the field aswell then hopefully you are getting a dog that conforms to breed standard AND can work all day in the field.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I have seen good big dogs in the field and good little ones.. they need to be athletic and the rest of the good traits are inside the dog that we cannot see...


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Yes, but (I think I am correct in saying) that here in the UK for a Golden to achieve its full CH then it HAS to have proven itself in the field aswell. If not I think it will just remain as a SH CH. Now I know that that will not ensure that the dog can work all day everyday and will be the best working dog there ever was but at least it shows that it has been trained up to hunt and has a good working ability, Im not sure exactly what is involved in gaining a dogs gundog certificate but it must mean SOMETHING about a dogs ability in the field (better than not having one anyway!)


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

Emma&Tilly said:


> Yes, but (I think I am correct in saying) that here in the UK for a Golden to achieve its full CH then it HAS to have proven itself in the field aswell. If not I think it will just remain as a SH CH. Now I know that that will not ensure that the dog can work all day everyday and will be the best working dog there ever was but at least it shows that it has been trained up to hunt and has a good working ability, Im not sure exactly what is involved in gaining a dogs gundog certificate but it must mean SOMETHING about a dogs ability in the field (better than not having one anyway!)


and i really endorse that.. good for you guys...
we have a dual champion title.. have to earn both show and field championships.. I believe it has been over 30 years since we had a golden earn that title..
there is one currently in canada with canadian show and field championships....


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## olliewood (Jan 17, 2006)

I got to the golden ring for 8.30 headed over to discover dogs before it got to busy meet some lovely working goldens and even managed to watch the souther golden retriever display team, Have some amazing photos of them but need to play with colour as lighting was awful only managed to take 600+ photos and didnt leave the show till 7

my feet are still killing me

will post pics soon


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

olliewood said:


> I got to the golden ring for 8.30 headed over to discover dogs before it got to busy meet some lovely working goldens and even managed to watch the souther golden retriever display team, Have some amazing photos of them but need to play with colour as lighting was awful only managed to take 600+ photos and didnt leave the show till 7
> 
> my feet are still killing me
> 
> will post pics soon


Sounds like you had a terrific day.


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## olliewood (Jan 17, 2006)

the breeder I had Oliver and Gracie from took 1st in undergraduate bitch and two of Olivers sisters pups took 1st in undergraduate dog,3rd in Graduate dog


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Hey Tracey!!:wavey: Sounds like a great day, Im so jelous...like I said...next year...:crossfing Did you squeeze in any shopping? Please post some pics!!! You only got to see about 10 seconds of the display team on the telly!:doh:


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## olliewood (Jan 17, 2006)

Will definitely be there again next year. I spent over a £100 on toy's and treats alone. I go to a lot of champ shows so crufts is more for visiting, shopping, and watching obedience and agility and of course Mary's heelwork 





































,


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## wilki5 (Feb 25, 2007)

I love the photos. I wish I could have gone, they showed about 20 seconds of the goldens doing their routine on TV.


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## RileyRetriever (Jan 4, 2007)

greg bell said:


> I have no idea about the UK, but here in the states you dont find many "show" dogs out in the field. And you don't find many trial dogs in the show ring



This is true , but this may be because someone using their dog as a gundog is a farmer/hunter and somebody showing their dog is an owner of a pet???? 

Most people utilising their dog for work , dont have time and more importantly the inclination to show their dog.

How many people own a 4x4 and and drive purely on roads? it doesnt mean that the car cannot do its job.

anyways have a good weekend .


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

wilki5 said:


> I love the photos. I wish I could have gone, they showed about 20 seconds of the goldens doing their routine on TV.


Next year you must go. It will mean a day from school and I know you would just hate to do that. hahaha


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Aw wow, Tracey, those pics are great....we did not see enough of that display on the tv!!!


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

olliewood said:


> I got to the golden ring for 8.30 headed over to discover dogs before it got to busy meet some lovely working goldens


Oh just one more thing...I thought that 'discover dogs' was at Earls court...I didnt know it was at Crufts aswell...that is something I have always wanted to go to but thought a trip to London for it would be a bit far!! I reeeally must go!


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## wilki5 (Feb 25, 2007)

Lestorm said:


> Next year you must go. It will mean a day from school and I know you would just hate to do that. hahaha


I would hate to miss school!! But I'm sure one day will be ok. hehehe


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

RileyRetriever said:


> This is true , but this may be because someone using their dog as a gundog is a farmer/hunter and somebody showing their dog is an owner of a pet????
> 
> Most people utilising their dog for work , dont have time and more importantly the inclination to show their dog.
> 
> ...


no.. my dog and all the ones that I know that do this stuff do not meet the so called standard... and the nice folks that have brought their show dogs over and tried to train with us learned that their dogs just didnt have that drive to do the work... there are a few exceptions on both sides of the isle, but very very few.. 
when it comes to what is important when looking for a golden pup, I think we can pretty much all agree that health and temprament are at the top of the list, but after that it pretty much divides up....it is unfortunate, but very true.. I see it a lot.


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## RileyRetriever (Jan 4, 2007)

yeah fair call 

as always it is dependant on each persons tastes and interpretation


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

*Hospital?*

Marilyn....are ya alright? Saw the part about going in to the hospital...:no:


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## olliewood (Jan 17, 2006)

Emma once I've shrunk the pics I will post them all in photobucket so you can get a feel for the show, I took quite a few of HTM and the agility. Discover dogs can be found at the end of hall three, is it's also held in Earls court in November, I went to it a few years ago for my Bday it was a wonderful show and it was the first time I had ever seen Southern Goldern Retriever Display Team






here are three wonderful working Goldens who I have been Lucky enough to have seen at a working test


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

I want to thank our British friends for maintaining your cool during the (very inconsiderate) hijacking of this thread 

It was very properly posted in the show results forum from the start, so I don't understand why the ruckus!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

greg bell said:


> and i really endorse that.. good for you guys...
> we have a dual champion title.. have to earn both show and field championships.. I believe it has been over 30 years since we had a golden earn that title..
> there is one currently in canada with canadian show and field championships....


 
Would that be Push? I was excited for Push, Val and her husband. I love the look of both!


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

vrocco1 said:


> I want to thank our British friends for maintaining your cool during the (very inconsiderate) hijacking of this thread
> 
> It was very properly posted in the show results forum from the start, so I don't understand why the ruckus!


At first I thought it an attack on us, show lovers, for enjoying our Goldens to the full. Then I thought about it and thought about how I feel about dogs that are bred for appearance sake and to hell with the fact that they cant breath properly. I dont think there are any medical problems brought about by breeding for looks in our breed. So best to let this thread die a death. I enjoyed my day and loved seeing so many well loved and happy dogs playing with their owners. No point of view can take that away.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Well said Lestorm, nothing in goldens is exaggerated to the detriment of their health, the dogs shown have to be at the peak of physical fitness, that is why they look so good. I actually noticed that on the coverage of Crufts that every breed that is walked round the ring gets a detailed description of what it was bred to do and therefore why it looks the way it does...I was puzzled to why the Portugese was shown in a 'lion trim'...and now I know!


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## olliewood (Jan 17, 2006)

I steward at a lot of field and working tests, and I have noticed a lot more goldens participating in field events than when I first started, about 80% were Labs at most event held, now there is an even balance of Labs and Goldens and of the goldens working at least 35% are show Goldens, many of the owners only became involved in working after their dogs had achieved Show CH and they had completed the working test certificate and become hooked so hope fully we will have another dual CH in the future.


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## olliewood (Jan 17, 2006)

photobucket link of the Golden Retriever Display Team

welsh_creams/southern golden retrievers - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

ps still loads more to add so keep checking back


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Lestorm said:


> At first I thought it an attack on us, show lovers, for enjoying our Goldens to the full. Then I thought about it and thought about how I feel about dogs that are bred for appearance sake and to hell with the fact that they cant breath properly. I dont think there are any medical problems brought about by breeding for looks in our breed. So best to let this thread die a death. I enjoyed my day and loved seeing so many well loved and happy dogs playing with their owners. No point of view can take that away.


Thanks again. No need to let this thread die. The interests of golden lovers are as diverse as is the appearence of our dogs. That is why Joe created the forums dealing with both performance and conformation dogs. I very much enjoyed the pictures in this thread, just as I do the capabilities of a real hunter.

As you know, it is hard enough to participate in either one of these events, let alone both of them. In spite of what has been said, there as many, many dogs listed on K9 data, which have successfully competed in both. They may not be top hunters, nor top conformation dogs, but they have proven that the two events can co-exist.


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## Boofy Bonbon (Feb 25, 2007)

Great photos of the display team, and did I hear correctly that Crufts Gundog Group day is on a Friday next year?


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## olliewood (Jan 17, 2006)

Crufts is always held on a Thursday-Sunday but the groups rotate every year so next year Gundogs will be on a Friday and by 2010 it will Sunday which is also BIS day


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Did they have the Service Assistance Dogs at Crufts? I think, but I'm not sure, Wendy and Caesar have been there. I loved that dog! It's been a long time since I've communicated with Wendy.

Hey Silly Tilly, it's good to meet up with you again!


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## olliewood (Jan 17, 2006)

there were dogs covering every aspect of Assistance Dogs, some lovely guide and hearing dogs and I met a wonderful dog who warns her owner when she is about to have an epilepsy seizure Seizure.

if you click on the funny shape u at the end of the name there is a picture of the dog Golden Retriever Club Belgium click on yellow writting crufts


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I don't think a massive headed, loaded shouldered, sickle hocked, over done UK dog is correct either... but nor are many of the straight fronted, weak hocked, over done, over coated American dogs! 

If one reads the standard, one wonders why so many UK breeders think their dogs are correct. But I feel the same about many US show dogs, too. My field bred golden's head met the standard perfectly, point by point, and he looks like a different breed from a UK dog. He had some UK field lines behind him (Holway Barty, etc).


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Kimm said:


> Hey Silly Tilly, it's good to meet up with you again!


:wavey: Hi Kimm...nice to see you too!


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

I'm certainly not a professional on show golden but they are gorgeous dogs.


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## KatzNK9 (Feb 27, 2007)

I'm soooooooooooo envious! I would have loved to attend. We have plenty of dog shows in our area but nothing even remotely close to Crufts or Westminster. Just a dream away. I'm so annoyed that I haven't seen anything on TV here about the show. Grrrrrroooooowwwwwwwwllllllllll.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

Lestorm said:


> The pics you have on your profile are of dogs with lovely heads. Are you saying that they would not be up to working in the field for a day or so? Please refer back to the breed standard. In a show ring the breed standard is the aim of each and every breeder and exhibitor.


My dogs do have lovely heads, so thank you! But, they are not big headed dogs. They very much fit the standard of the golden, Kody fits the most since he is the better bred golden and kept too the old style of the golden as in the past. I sense a direct attack on his head do to his profile picture you see from you, I must warn you....do not always judge a dog by a picture, pictures can lie. In that profile that is a zoomed in shot and cropped, his head may appear larger but it is not in real life, maybe a wetted down Kody will give you a better sense of his size in head.









Kody is very up to handling a day in field, he is very athletic, sized perfectly for the job as well as coat is not heavy, nor are his feet large! Those types of things are of no use in a gundog, but a hinderance! As they would have been back in the day of the the first breedings of the golden retriever for what they were created for.

The standard should be the aim, but as I mentioned in the past the judges have pulled from the standard and large heads, too much coat and big feet don't make the standard of the Golden Retriever. In the ring as mentioned, it does not show the golden can do the job, let alone do it all day. I very much do like to see the titling of these show dogs though, at least they have to prove more then just go in the ring and look pretty.

But for the true gundog owner, the show dog will not cut it out there in the field here in the US, some can do the job, but they are lacking in other area's that are crucial to the job. I in no way intended, or met to pick on your dogs....I am only for the Golden Retriever breed and I feel they need to keep this dog intact, to what it was....not too what they want it too be, or too look like. There health has suffered do too there ignorance, and so has there temperments by many breeders of the show dog. I commend those that keep this dog as it should be, and not admire a big head, or large feet or heavy long thick coats, as well as keep temperment and health at the top of there list. I also commend those that see past the pretty, and look for what this dog really is and keep it that way in the ring as well as out.

And forgive me for saying this, but I very much have referred back too the breed standard. Big heads and big feet are not in the standard.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Isn't the standard in the UK a bit different than the standard in the US?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

The standard has a few variations. Namely, the tail is set on level with the topline in the UK, and cream is acceptable as a color.


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

Goldndust said:


> My dogs do have lovely heads, so thank you! But, they are not big headed dogs. They very much fit the standard of the golden, Kody fits the most since he is the better bred golden and kept too the old style of the golden as in the past. I sense a direct attack on his head do to his profile picture you see from you, I must warn you....do not always judge a dog by a picture, pictures can lie. In that profile that is a zoomed in shot and cropped, his head may appear larger but it is not in real life, maybe a wetted down Kody will give you a better sense of his size in head.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## T'Jara (Mar 25, 2007)

@Goldendust

There have been a few breeders trying to keep the dual purpose dog and some are doing it quite well - at least on the continent...

Let me give you some links:

Kennel Combine-Golden retrievers (Sweden)
http://www.royalcrestgolden.it/ (Italy) (Ironically owns a Golden from American lines with a Dual Ch.)
Allevamento Double Willow (Italy)
Golden Retrievers en France - Rayleas Golden Retrievers (France)
Startseite (Germany)
Willkommen bei murdocks-golden (Germany)
http://www.dual-golden.at/ (Austria)
Chinnordale_Dogs (UK)
Golden Retriever Zwinger - Back to the Roots (Germany)
Herma Ness Golden Retrievers (Germany)

Those are all breeders that have owned or bred good looking working dogs... some of those breeders are hunters as well... most of them I think...

I cannot approve of any breeder that breeds for show or work only. They are really missing out on something...!


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## angus my golden retriever (Dec 12, 2006)

I was there! There were 600+ entered and it took from 8:30am to 5:30pm to judge I didn't get a seat but spent the morning watching them! I got there at 9 and watched the girls and boys and pups then came back for best of breed. The golden wasn't as good as the rest of the group sadly but I watched the flattie win best of breed and was a beautiful dog! Didn't like the lab though bit too jumpy!


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## carlasmum (Oct 22, 2006)

Have to disagree  as she is a Gunhills the same as my Carla :wave:


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