# Structure - how to see correct vs. incorrect



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Is there any source (online or otherwise) of illustrations or photos that show the difference between correct and incorrect parts of the body in GRs? Certain things I can see (long loin, pigment, stop, large ears, topline, etc) but others are harder to see without examples for me to refer (return of upper arm, correct tail-set, etc). I really want to learn more about correct structure and be able to identify strengths and weaknesses in dogs that I see. 

It's hard for a novice to learn at shows because everything happens so quickly. I also think it's rude to sit ringside and discuss the pros and cons of the dogs in the ring with someone - which is essentially what I'd have to do. I think it's fine to point out the positives but calling attention to the negatives just seems inappropriate - I wouldn't want someone to do that to my dog at a show. I know it happens, but I don't want to be the jerk. 

I'm making a point to observe litter evaluations, when possible, and those seem to be the best source of information for me. But the next one I can attend isn't going to be for several months so I'm trying to learn more in the meantime. 

Any advice for someone looking to learn more about structure?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Rachel Page Elliott's Dogsteps, both the book and her video, are the best source. You can get them thru either Amazon or Dogwise.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks! I just ordered it on Amazon!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Also, the illustrated standard is very nice.
http://www.grcasales.org/a-study-of-the-golden-retriever.html
The problem is, in a lot of these, it shows dogs equal in all respects except for whatever flaw they are pointing out...and of course in real life that doesn't happen. Dogs also may have a less desirable structural conformation than the next dog, yet the first one is hands down the better overall dog in many aspects. Or a dog with very good structure does not move as well as you expect....why?
It is really hard to learn this stuff, but reading and studying at least allows you to learn the terminology.
I find puppy evaluations to be difficult. They are so small and you are basically guessing what things will turn out to be. Some people totally dig puppy evals though. Best of luck.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I love puppy evaluations and have found them to be fairly accurate when done at 7 weeks old. I never tire of them, and always learn from them.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I may order that book too. I think it would actually be good for me to see each flaw in a vacuum. I know you don't want to discount the whole dog by focusing on the individual components, or not pay attention to the dog's movement, but it's just for learning.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Another thing I find really helpful is to go watch other breeds being judged, just sit ringside and see if you can pick the winners. If they are breeds that you aren't familiar with, then you won't be biased by type, the handler, the owner, etc, you'll just look at structure and movement (and realize how a good handler can help). I love watching Boxers, Dobes, Rotties -- larger breeds with similar body style as a golden (as in, roughly square, level topline), movement oriented breeds, they usually have a large entry too.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I really like this book http://www.amazon.com/World-Golden-Retriever-Dog-Seasons/dp/086622694X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1281675748&sr=8-1 in addition to DogSteps. The books has a lot more in it than structure, but I like the section on it. Plus, there is a history with photos of top-winning dogs and bitches which is fun to look at.

Puppy Puzzles by Pat Hastings is supposed to be good. I have a borrowed copy on top of my TV I need to watch...


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> I love watching Boxers, Dobes, Rotties -- larger breeds with similar body style as a golden (as in, roughly square, level topline), movement oriented breeds, they usually have a large entry too.


I do as well. I find that in breeds like the dobie, what you see is what you get. No fancy grooming techniques to mask anything. If their topline isn't level, you see it. As for learning, I have found it helpful (though I'm not going to claim that I really know that much about it anyhow). 

Also, I think its called "Golden Retriever: Structure and Movement" or something like that (without looking). Its a DVD narrated by Rachel Page Elliot and it is also very good. I found it particularly good at looking at movement and comparing different dogs.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Although I studied the Blue Book, took notes at dog shows, and watched Pat Hasting's videos many times, the most valuable thing for me has been breeders/ handlers taking the time to teach me specifics. It's great if you have a mentor who will draw lines for you on pictures, and show you things like upper arms, as well as show you how to feel for structural integrity/ flaws on actual dogs. CCAs or balanced feedback is so valuable for learning, so that you can see your own dogs accurately in their structural strengths and weaknesses; that way, you know if you're living with a nice bend of stifle or long hocks or whatever. It's amazing how once you really see something a few times and identify it, you start to develop a more intuitive understanding of the whole. Like at first,to me, the dogs front was mainly if it had a good prosternum. Now, I can better see all the components in the front, mainly bc one of Tango's breeders patiently teaches me.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Little sticky label dots are also a useful tool. I like to stick them on the key areas--point of shoulder blade, joint of shoulder blade and upper arm, elbow joint etc. That way not only can you feel what is there, you can step back and take a good look at it. Painters tape would wark well too as it is low adhesion. You can do this with puppies, or with an adult dog as a learning tool to really see what you've got. You can also take pictures with the markers on making side by side comparison easier.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

On Youtube, there's a breeder who videotapes litter evaluations at 5,6,7,and 8 weeks. I learn so much from hearing each pup discussed. It is so nice that the public is welcome to watch these as educational tools. These are Ryder pups at only 5 weeks.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

sterregold said:


> Little sticky label dots are also a useful tool. I like to stick them on the key areas--point of shoulder blade, joint of shoulder blade and upper arm, elbow joint etc. That way not only can you feel what is there, you can step back and take a good look at it. Painters tape would wark well too as it is low adhesion. You can do this with puppies, or with an adult dog as a learning tool to really see what you've got. You can also take pictures with the markers on making side by side comparison easier.


What a cool idea!!! Why have I never thought to do this with my own dogs?
Maybe we should start a little GRF project, I'd be willing to do this with my dogs and post pics. Love the idea of actually putting the dots ON the dogs, not just on photos where you THINK the points are.


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## damita (Jun 4, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> What a cool idea!!! Why have I never thought to do this with my own dogs?
> Maybe we should start a little GRF project, I'd be willing to do this with my dogs and post pics. Love the idea of actually putting the dots ON the dogs, not just on photos where you THINK the points are.


I am game too!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'm making a point to observe litter evaluations, when possible, and those seem to be the best source of information for me. But the next one I can attend isn't going to be for several months so I'm trying to learn more in the meantime.
> 
> Any advice for someone looking to learn more about structure?



CCA events are a great place to also learn how others interpret the Standard. Of course the best way to do this is go to one and spend the day. Follow one dog in each group from one evaluator to the next evaluator. Listen to what each one has to day and make notes. Ask the entrant during the breaks if you can put your hands on their dog to see exactly what the judges were referring to. You will find many willing to allow this.
If you are not able to attend then ask around among your peers and see who has already put a dog through the CCA process and see if they will allow you to evaluate their dog and compare your notes with those from the CCA - entrants get copies of each judges score sheets. You can even download a blank score sheet from the GRCA website - http://www.grca.org/events/cca/index.html


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks for all the suggestions. As for mentoring, I'm going to Jack's sire's owner's house next weekend since she's showing him for us the following weekend. I'm hoping to pick her brain quite a bit while I'm there, at least as much as possible without being super annoying! She's been really helpful and is really knowledgeable - but just lives about 4 hours from us so we don't have the chance to see her that much. 

I'd love to see the sticky labels dots....I'd definitely be willing to do that on Jack once I know a little more about where things actually are...LOL.


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## sameli102 (Aug 23, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> What a cool idea!!! Why have I never thought to do this with my own dogs?
> Maybe we should start a little GRF project, I'd be willing to do this with my dogs and post pics. Love the idea of actually putting the dots ON the dogs, not just on photos where you THINK the points are.


That would be SO interesting! I would love to participate too, just for the learning experience.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

sameli102 said:


> That would be SO interesting! I would love to participate too, just for the learning experience.


k9-Design started a new thread with her dogs that I just saw!


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