# Seizure dog going under anethesia



## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I had a dog Beau that had seizures. His started happening to him when he was 11 so I didnt go thru it with neutering him. If you feel comfortable with this new vet and you will be with him, that should help with the anxiety. The neuter may help to calm him some and stop the humping but it would take a couple of months for the testosterone to leave his system. 

Truly I dont believe any dog is hopeless on the training, but if his anxiety is so bad then maybe the vet could suggest some anti-anxiety meds that will work with the pheno. Until then maybe you can do baby steps on taking him places and being around people and dogs to help socialize him. Take along some of his favorite treats. 

I dont know if anyone has given you this website but it was a lifesaver to me with Beau. 
http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/CanineEpil.htm


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

Just wanted to wish you and Rocky good luck on his neuter surgery, don't know much about seizures, but I'm sure he can learn a few things, no dog is a hopeless case. Good luck to you and Rocky!


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## 3SweetGoldens (Feb 28, 2007)

I knew Carol would be able to have suggestions, as her Beau had seizures. I am sorry I can't offer anything more about them in Golden's. Rocky is a very handsome guy, and looks like such a love! His smile is so cute! My little Doxie had three or four seizures, and then they stopped, as suddenly as they started. Just when the Vet made the decision to put her on meds, she stopped having them, and never took medication. I hope all goes well with his nuetering, I am sure it will. Much less involved, than a spay for a female. I am sure he will do well with his surgery. 
Good luck with Rocky's training, I as well, think any dog can be trained, some are just more difficult than others.  My two year old can be a handful at times. He just gets so excited, and is not nuetered either. He was in classes when he was just a puppy, and did well. Right now, he is still such a "kid" sometimes! LOL


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

I have a seizure dog too and she has been under 3 times without any problem. Actually she was spayed after she started having seizures, (before I got her)and she had no problems then either. I would definately have his thyroid checked using a 6 panel test. Low thyroid can cause seizures. I am now seeing many dogs through my rescue under a year old with thyroid problems.


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## tennisball (Oct 14, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Rocky had a seizure Monday and his vet isn't sure if she wants to do the neuter tomorrow without additional testing. Like I said, this is a new vet, so she may want to do more blood tests, exams, etc. If she does additional blood work, what specific tests should I ask her to run? I would like everything to be very thorough, because he is a very anxious dog and I wouldn't be too surprised if he does have a thyroid problem.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I would have a full thyroid panel done and she can have it sent to Dr Jean Dodds. She is a leading authority on thyroid especially in goldens. This site has all the info that she needs to send it. 
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/HEMOPET.HTM

If she doesnt want to send it off (some vets dont) then make sure a full panel is done. If it comes back low normal that is low for a golden and he needs to be put on meds. Maybe you can wait on the neutering until the bloodwork comes back and you know for sure whether he is low.


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## Dreammom (Jan 14, 2009)

From my understanding and I could be wrong... it is not the anesthesia that causes a problem for dogs with seizures, it is the ACE many Vets give before anesthesia. I too have an epileptic dog so I understand your concerns. Just be sure to let all of the staff know that your dog is epileptic when you drop him off for the neuter, they need to be watched more closely.

As for the rest of it... only time will tell LOL. I have not noticed altering calming down any of my dogs.


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## tennisball (Oct 14, 2009)

Thanks for the response, guys. She did a full thyroid work up and said he's in the low-normal range. From what I read on here, a golden in the low-normal range still needs to be treated. But the thing is, he has none of the signs of hypothyroidism. This dog is wired 24/7, eats fine, isn't lethargic, etc. She said we could send the test results to MSU if I'm still unsure. For now, she has Rocky on some Chinese herbal pills to see if that calms him down and stops the seizures, and if it doesn't work, she's going to up his pheno. 

I'm not quite sure how to read these results, as they are two pages long, but here's what it says under the T3, T3 and Free T4.

T3 (RIA)
Absolute: 79
Reference Range: 45-150
Units: ng/dL

T4
Absolute: 1.1
Reference Range: 1.0-4.0
Units: ug/dL

Free T4 (RIA)
Absolute: 0.69
Reference Range: 0.45-2.06
Units: ng/dL

What do you guys think? There's another page full of more information I can post if needed. The herbal pills seemed to work at first, but he has had one seizure in the past two weeks. She also told me to feel him "cooling foods" because he's a "hot dog" so I've been feeding him green beans, but now he's decided he doesn't like them :doh:


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

WOW. That T4 is WAY low...when was the bloodwork relative to his last meal/treats?


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Just found this. I hope he came through the surgery ok. I had a boy with seizures. He was on a mid-level dosage of Pheno and did very well, only a few seizures a year. Sam lost his bladder, never his bowels or vomiting. He had a surgery while on pheno and did fine. Sam's seizures started at age 6 and he lived a happy full life without complications. I hope your boy does as well.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Not all dogs show alot of signs of being low thyroid. Beau didnt have any signs except for his seizures. So I would get him on the meds.


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## tennisball (Oct 14, 2009)

MurphyTeller said:


> WOW. That T4 is WAY low...when was the bloodwork relative to his last meal/treats?


He had been fasted for 12 hours, no treats or food, and my silly mother also pulled his water (I was stuck at a friends house the night before his blood draw because of a snow storm). Could not having water affect his levels much?



paula bedard said:


> Just found this. I hope he came through the surgery ok. I had a boy with seizures. He was on a mid-level dosage of Pheno and did very well, only a few seizures a year. Sam lost his bladder, never his bowels or vomiting. He had a surgery while on pheno and did fine. Sam's seizures started at age 6 and he lived a happy full life without complications. I hope your boy does as well.


Thanks  He actually hasn't had surgery yet. The vet wants to wait until his seizures have stopped completely, or at least wait until the point where he only has one every 3 months or so. 



BeauShel said:


> Not all dogs show alot of signs of being low thyroid. Beau didnt have any signs except for his seizures. So I would get him on the meds.


I did some more research online and read that dogs can have labored or odd sounding breathing as a symptom. Rocky wheezes for about 10 seconds every day when he's completely relaxed. Maybe that could be a small symptom I overlooked. Also, I read some dogs suffer from severe anxiety. Rocky is very anxious outside of our home, especially in the car or pet stores. I thought it was because he wasn't socialized as a pup, but maybe the meds could help that, too.

The vet made it sound like he shouldn't be on meds yet, because it's not really affecting his life. She said it'd be a good idea to medicate him when he's older and starts to slow down, etc. She's the second vet I've seen.. maybe I should get a third opinion or ask her to send the results to MSU.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

maybe I should get a third opinion... GREAT idea !!! Keep us posted


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

Go here:http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/HEMOPET.HTM


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

If your dog has experienced 20 seizures, he definitely should be on meds. Each seizure lowers the dog's overall seizure threshold, so that it has a snow ball effect with each seizure making the next all the more likely. 

My dog Finn has about 2 seizures a year, and he is not on meds. Any increase, and then he will be. 

A great safety measure in case of a seizure emergency is Diastat( rectal valium). 

Several types of anesthesia are safe for dogs who struggle with seizures, but one common sedative that gets implicated for causing seizure dogs trouble is Acepromazine.


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## tennisball (Oct 14, 2009)

Well, my boy had two seizures within 24 hours, which hasn't happened before. He vomited up his breakfast right before the second one. He was taking 30 mg of phenobarbital in the morning and 45 mg at night. I spoke to his vet and she said we should increase his pheno to 60 mg twice a day, then draw blood in 4 weeks to check his levels.

These seizures seemed weaker and different than his other ones. He was alert and moving his front legs and trying to get up, but had no control of his back legs. I hated seeing him like that.. poor guy. I picked him up and brought him inside and after 5 minutes he was okay.

I'm concerned about putting him on 60 mg of phenobarbital because I've read it can cause liver damage. The pheno he is getting now obviously isn't helping, and I'm wondering if upping it to 60 will help. I don't want to be giving him these meds that can harm his liver, especially if they're not even working for him.

I could ask her about potassium bromide, as I've read that works well for a lot of dogs. Or, I could just ask her if I can put him on medication for his thyroid, stop _all_ the other medications, and wait to see what happens. If he goes months without a seizure, we'll know it was the low thyroid. It's tough because it's a long process of elimination, and I want him to be healthy as soon as possible. He's not a good candidate for anesthesia and I'm starting to think I'll never be able to have him neutered


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I would try the 60 twice a day. My Beau had to go up on meds several times. In fact the last year of his life, he was on 3 60mg tablets twice a day and didnt have any liver damage. One thing that I did add was milk thistle and Sam-E. It helps to flush the liver. Beau was also on the thyroid meds at the same time. 

You can put him on the potassium bromide but from what I have read, it takes longer like 3 months to really get into the system so he might have to be on both meds for a short time. And with some dogs the potassium bromide doesnt work as well. 

If your vet does decide to take him off the pheno, it has to be SLOWLY lowered over several months to get out of his system. My vet said he doesnt recommend coming off the pheno even if it was low thyroid because it is hard to determine if that is the only issue. And once the seizures start, it is hard to stop them with just the thyroid getting in line. I always wanted Beau to come off the pheno especially when he went almost a year without one but as soon as we lowered him meds, he would have one again.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

He really needs to go on those thyroid meds. Please don't stop the pheno until he has been seizure free for at least 6 months, Then he needs to be weaned off very slowly. Are you feeding him a grain free food? That is supposed to help.


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## Dash (Aug 10, 2009)

Reading up on neutering and anesthesia- Dash was neutered today at 10 months. He had cluster seizures in the fall 2009 and was on pheno until about 3 weeks ago we weaned him off. I never new the cause but suspect if may have been the lawn fertilizer. Anyway when he went in for the procedure they used a different anestesia for epeliptic animals, the vet said it was a quick down and quick up. He came throught fine but poor thing is home and is wearing a cone. Ate a few treats, drank and had a couple of ice cubes. Seems to be taking short naps and then going to the back door to go out. I have taken him out about 4 times in the last 5 hours but he has yet to pee?? I will most likely sleep on the couch tonight in case he needs me and see how he feels tomorrow. He was sent home with no pain meds.
In my seizure research I learned alot about the dog food and the raw hides. Dash now eats Kirkland brand dry kibble, first ingredient is chicken and I only give him bones that are produced in the US. As far as treats I have been giving all natural salmon and fruit mixture. My plan is to continue with this. Be diligent and check the labels on the bones etc... if they not produced in the US dont by them. Hope this helps.


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## Tailer'sFolks (Feb 27, 2007)

Our Tailer (4 years old) started seizures 2-1-10, had 2 in 12 hours & the Vet recommended Pheno...started it 2-2-10 7:30 PM and 9:20 PM Tailer had another seizure...I know the Pheno was not in his system yet. Knock on wood...he has not had another one...I had not thought about anesthesia...Thanks for bringing that up! 

Hope you get your pupper stable and can neuter. Keep us Posted! Boy, I hate the thought about having a section here just for Seizure Dawg, but sounds like there are plenty of us out here now...


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## tennisball (Oct 14, 2009)

Rocky has been on the 60 mg of pheno for a week and he hasn't had any more seizures. He was a little drugged up the first few days, but now he's back to his normal self. He is not on grain-free food. The vet didn't suggest switching his food, though that may be something to look into. I asked her about Sam-E and she said I could give him anything that will flush his liver, and she mentioned another supplement, but now I can't remember the name! I saw Sam-E at the store, maybe I will try some of that. She also mentioned feeding him "cooling" foods, such as green beans, etc. He ate the green beans for a day or two, and then decided he hates them. Has anyone else ever fed there dog "cooling" foods mixed in with their kibble, and if so, what did you feed them?

We're moving into a new house next month, so maybe if it's something environmental in the house we're in now, the seizures will stop completely. I keep a log of his seizures and who knows, maybe they'll stop at the new house. I just hope they don't get any worse.

Thanks for the info, Dash, and I'm glad to hear your pup hasn't had any more seizures. I'm sure he'll be back to his normal self after a few days. My boy is on dry kibble with chicken as the #1 ingredient and I also only give him bones made in the USA. I usually get a variety of treats for the dogs, but maybe I should try the natural salmon like you suggested. It's hard finding treats that all 3 of the dogs like.. they're so picky! I find myself buying so many different kinds of treats just to please 'em all.

I'm so glad to hear Taylor is feeling better! I know everyone here on the forum was very worried about him. I have seen many posts about goldens with seizures and epilepsy, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a designated section for this. Unfortunately, it seems pretty common around here.

Rocky will be going back to the vet in a few weeks to have blood work done. I would love to take him back to training classes, but the trainer suggested we get his medical conditions under control first. His anxiety is so severe when we're in the car or at the trainers that he can't focus and learn anything  I'm hoping his behavioral problems and being nervous is linked to his condition, and once that's solved and he's neutered, he'll calm down a bit and won't be so stressed out. He's such a good guy at home, but it's impossible to take him anywhere in the car without him having a panic attack!


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

I hope things start to improve for you and Rocky. It sounds like he is in a wonderful home and has an excellent chance of getting things figured out to minimize his seizures and his anxiety. Please keep us all posted.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Has he been put on thyroid meds? Dr Dodds is very good about doing phone consults and working with your vet. I'd definitely do this...... google hemopet and it will tell you exactly how to fax your lab results and when to call etc. Be sure to have a list on questions, topics to discuss, and take notes if needed. Several people on here have done this and gotten much needed help.


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## tennisball (Oct 14, 2009)

I think I will wait til I get his new blood test results in 3 weeks, then send them to Dr. Dodds. The doctor didn't seem to know who she was, and being an employee there, I had access to his chart, and she wrote that "the owner was worried about _hype_rthyroidism because it can be common in goldens, MB (the doctor) not aware of this" and she wrote that his _hypo_thyroidism wasn't affecting him, so we should wait until he's older to treat him. I asked her yet again why she doesn't want to treat him for the hypothyroidism _now_, and she said she could send the results to MSU to be analyzed. Any thoughts? There are 4 doctors in the practice, and I could ask another doctor to look over his chart.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

I would definitely get the full thyroid panel (either MSU or Dr. Dodds). That way there's no questions as to how his thyroid is working at this time.

Glad his seizures are under control. It's definitely scary when they are having one. I'm glad my girl only has one every 6 months or so.


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## tennisball (Oct 14, 2009)

Rocky had another pheno check and the doctor said it's safe to neuter him  His surgery is on Thursday and I'm already a wreck! He'll also be getting a cyst removed from his head. I took the day off of work to be there with him and the doctor is letting me watch the procedure. Fingers crossed for a successful surgery and a speedy recovery!


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## turtle66 (Feb 19, 2010)

I am "just" a pediatric anesthesiologist and my hobby is my golden retriever Lillly and my cat Jenny. In human there is a slightly higher chance to have a seizure after anesthesia. So we recommend to take the anti-seizure medicine before surgery. ALL ANESTHESIA drugs are generally ant-seizure drugs and are use to treat seizures! The risk to have a seizure is after! general anesthesia (after giving all these anti-seizure drugs used for general anesthesia are wearing off..)...I haven't seen it yet in my 15 year of practicing but it is known in the literature and I always let my parents know before surgery that this might happen, but then again - this is where the anesthesiologist/ vet has all the drugs available to treat seizures...It is very rare!!!

Hope this helps a little bit....


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## tennisball (Oct 14, 2009)

Thanks for the input, turtle66, but it doesn't look like he'll have the surgery tomorrow. I came home from work today and he was so excited to see me he started to seize the minute I walked in the door. It was shorter than his other seizures, but it seemed more violent.  I called his doctor to see what she thinks and I guess now it's just a waiting game.


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I am so sorry Rocky had another seizure. I'll keep you both in my thoughts and prayers.


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## turtle66 (Feb 19, 2010)

All the best thoughts for Rocky. Are his seizures under better control now? Did he get different medications? Nothing is really easy with seizures in human so I assume it'll be the same with our canine best friends.
Big hugs to Rocky!
Heike


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## tennisball (Oct 14, 2009)

His seizures are not as frequent as they use to be, but they still occur. He's had two in the past two months, so I guess that's an improvement! His pheno levels are normal, yet he's still having seizures :gotme: One doctor said to hold off neutering until he's not having them _at all_ and another one said the surgery was safe to do as long as his blood tests were normal. He's still taking 60 mg of pheno BID.

The one that happened on Wednesday was a little different from his usual seizures. I came home from work and he was super excited to see me and he started seizing within seconds  He was totally alert and at one point I took everything out of my pockets so I could sit on the floor with him (including dog treats), and he was trying to grab the treats during the seizure. His mouth wasn't clamped shut like it usually is, and his head seemed to shake a big more. It was shorter than his other seizures but seemed more violent.

That's the second time I've had a surgical appointment and we've had to cancel. He's really lucked out on not getting his manhood chopped off :


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## turtle66 (Feb 19, 2010)

Thanks for the update! And thanks for taking care of Rocky - your last thread sounds heartbreaking when he was alert while having a seizure.
I would like to add one anesthesia drug to use with caution (there are always exemptions in medicine...) Ketamine (a drug often use in veterinary practice) is NOT the one you want to use for Rocky (it could cause seizure like events) but nowadays there are plenty of alternatives out there and even better anesthetics you can use (for example propofol or almost all inhalational anesthetics).

Are there canine neurologists out there? I think that is what Rocky might (or might not) control of his seizures. 

All the best to you and Rocky,

Heike


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## tennisball (Oct 14, 2009)

Rocky is scheduled for surgery tomorrow and hopefully it won't be postponed again. We usually use propofol to sedate, but I'm not sure what the doctor plans on doing. I'm so nervous! I'm so glad I'll be able to intubate him and be with him the entire time. Fingers crossed for Rocky!


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## turtle66 (Feb 19, 2010)

Fingers ARE crossed for Rocky!!!
Don't make the other people tooo nervous when you be with Rocky 
An easy airway, all the best and another big hug to Rocky. 

Heike
Propofol should be fine.....


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## turtle66 (Feb 19, 2010)

How did it go?


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## tennisball (Oct 14, 2009)

The surgery went very well!  I'm so glad it's finally over and done with. The doctor also removed a cyst from the top of his head and she said it was "interesting" so we sent it to a pathologist. He's recovering just fine and already wants to run around and play


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I am so glad that his surgery went well and no seizures from it. Saw your thread and was nervous about opening it since seizure pups are special to me and was worried that something might have happened. I pray that the cyst comes back clean. He looks like he has a fun personality with spunkiness in his eyes. You might conside going to Petco, they have the blowup ecollars that are smaller and more comfortable than those lamp shades.


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## tennisball (Oct 14, 2009)

I do have a soft e-collar as well that he wears most of the time. The lamp shade one was just what we used for the car ride home. 

I'm having such a hard time keeping him calm! He wants to run around and play with his brother  but I gave him a fresh bully stick and that's been keeping him occupied for a while


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## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

Hi. Rocky is a handsome lad! So, my Duke, may he run and play hard at the bridge, was also a seizure pup. Several things (I haven't read all of your thread, so forgive me if these things have already been brought up.) I would suggest. Potassium Bromide coupled with the phenobarb could just be the ticket to controlling his seizures. How old is he? I ask because Duke was on the pheno barb for most of his short life and at the age of 6 his liver became toxic to where we weaned him off the phenobarb completely and they were controlled 100% by the potassium bromide. He would get cluster seizures - 3 in a matter of about 36 hours and then no more for about 1 1/2 months. 

it is common for there to be breakthrough seizures while on the meds, however. Have they given you some valium to administer rectally at the onset of a seizure? The one thing that threw Duke for an absolute loop was getting his teeth cleaned as they're lightly sedated and he had 3 in one night. Horrible ones, too. You might want to ask your vet about the valium.

And, frozen corn or peas at the middle to lower part of his spine - kind of where the curve is only a little lower than that - has been known to diminish the severity. I never tried it, though because once he started seizing, we didn't want to leave him. However, rubbing alcohol in a spray bottle will help him cool down spraying it on his feet after a seizure during that post-ictal stage.

Duke had many surgeries in his short time as well and the only one that he had any trouble with was the teeth cleaning - no extractions.

I pray that Rocky heals quickly and that the outcome is what you're looking for.

Thank you for loving him and taking him in. He's found his furever home with you and that's awesome.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Tennisball*

Tennisball

I am so glad that Rocky's surgery is over. Thank you for loving him so much, he sure deserves it.
Where in Illinois do you live? I live in Woodridge, IL, and we go to Arboretum View Animal Hsptl., in Downers Grove, IL.


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## tennisball (Oct 14, 2009)

Thanks for all the tips, Duke's Momma! I have asked about potassium bromide and the veterinarians said he's doing alright as it is on the pheno, though I'm very worried about liver damage. Rocky will be 4 in October and he's been on the pheno since he was about 2 1/2.

They have not given me any valium because usually, he only has a seizure about once every 1-2 months, and even then they're not horrible and they only last about 3-5 minutes. The doctor said I could give him an extra dose of the pheno during the seizure, but with his jaw clamped shut, it's not as easy as it sounds!

I'll definitely remember the frozen peas/rubbing alcohol for the future. I'm hoping the neuter may have an effect on his epilepsy and maybe the seizures will subside. I'm also curious to know if the cyst on his head could have anything to do with his seizures.

I worried so much about the anesthesia, and I had absolutely no reason to. He recovered _so _fast, I was a little surprised! He cried whenever I walked away from his cage, and I was exhausted, so I ended up laying down in the cage with him and we both fell asleep! My coworkers thought it was hilarious and snapped a few pictures.

Karen, I live in Belvidere and I work at the Barrington Animal Hospital, so that's where all my animals are treated. I lived in McHenry for most of my life and I just moved to Belvidere in March. I'm a little bit over an hour away from you. I've noticed a few Illinois folks on the board.. I'd love to schedule a meet up some day!


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Tennisball*

Tennisball:

Would love to meet you, too!


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

If you are not giving him milk thistle and Sam-E pills in his diet, I would add it. It will help to flush the liver to prevent liver damage. My Beau was on the highest amount of pheno that anyone has ever seen for three years and he didnt have any liver damage. I had him on that milk thistle and sam-e and I think it did make a difference.


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## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

Yes, I totally agree with Carol on the two supplements. I think that if I had done that from the onset his liver may have been fine.

I find it odd that the vet said to add a phenobarb during a seizure as it takes at least a week if not longer to be useful. ANYWAY - I pray all of your wishes are met.

Glad he's recovering so nicely.


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## tennisball (Oct 14, 2009)

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I asked the doctor about adding it to his diet and she said it'd be a good idea. How much milk thistle/sam-e do you recommend I give him? He weighs 71 lbs and eats twice a day.

I thought it was odd that she said to give him the extra dose of pheno as well. There are 4 doctors in the practice and he's had experience with all of them and they all have different opinions  

Anyway, he's doing very well and seems to love his soft e-collar. I took it off for a few minutes and he was trying to get it back on! It makes a great pillow as well.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

While milk thistle works for some you have to be very careful with the milk thistle and my homeopath has stopped recommending it as it can interfere with the absorption of the phenobarbital and in my dog it actually increased the seizures... as soon as we stopped the milk thistle my pup was totally controlled again, according to the homeopath this is not an uncommon reaction as the milk thistle causes the pheno to not be metabolized in the way it should as it is processed by the liver... so exercise due caution when using this supplement and honestly you are best off just seeing a holistic vet and letting htem get you on appropriate supplements. 

my two cents as always 
S and Epi Flat Coat Cuinn


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## Tailer'sFolks (Feb 27, 2007)

Love the Pillow! Silly beast trying to put the collar back on! I'd like to have seen that! Glad all is going well. 

I am interested in the milk thistle too...Tailer and I are taking Fish Oil Cap's 2x/day.

Tailer goes in for his blood re-test tomorrow to see how his thyroid and pheno levels are doing...i hope we can start cutting down on the pheno!


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## Tailer'sFolks (Feb 27, 2007)

Shalva...Now I don't know if I want to try the Milk Thistle! :0


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

That is the first time I have ever heard about the milk thistle. My vet never said it would mess with the absorbtion of the pheno. But I always gave the sam-e and milk thistle at dinner time and pheno at least 2 hours after dinner and breakfast. Here is information on the guardian angel website that Dr Dodds recommends how much you should give per weight 
http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/liver_diet.htm

I dont recommend doing the reducing the phenobarbital like the article says.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I have been dealing with an epileptic boy for 7 years. He started seizing at age 2 and is now almost 9... He is wonderful but over the years we have worked with a neurologist and a holistic vet... as well as a traditional vet. Nobody thought he would live as long as he has. 

I don't want to scare you.. but you need to know how some dogs respond to milk thistle. it does protect the liver... but in doing so it moves things through the liver quickly and can block the pheno .... we noticed that Cuinn's seizures were increasing on the milk thistle and it was just in passing that I mentioned to my vet that he was taking milk thistle and it appears that her own seizure active dog had a similar issue...the Sam-E i have never heard of problems with and there are other liver vitamins and herbs that may be safer.... Milk thistle should be used as pulse therapy in dogs... so on for a period of time and off for a period of time... this is the reason that I would recommend talking to a holistic vet and if you see an increase in seizures to be under the guidance of a homeopathic or holistic vet. The other thing is that my Cuinn for example is just now beginning to show signs of some liver damage... after 7 years on phenobarbital and a very high dosage the past 6 mos. much higher than is recommended but his seizures were getting more frequent and harder to control... we just switched him to Keppra which doesn't have the side effects of phenobarbital and is very very expensive... but I have kept it in my back pocket knowing that at some point we were going to get to the point the phenobarbital stopped working and it did... now that he is on the keppra we have lowered his phenobarb dosage by half and are hoping we can lower it again in a couple weeks (although he had a seizure this morning). 

I wish you the best of luck.... and your pup as well and if I can be of any help please do let me know... I can tell you what I know... there are some excellent email lists for epi dogs... and they were a wealth of information to me when I was just beginning this journey with cuinn. 

S


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Tennisball*

Tennisball

I love Rocky's collar!

Where did you get it?

I would use that instead if we ever have to again.


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## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

Okay - there's certainly alot of schools of thought on the different supplements and anti-seizure meds.

Duke's story is that he started seizing I think in his 2nd year. At 7 1/2 I think, his liver became toxic. (His journal is packed away in his box of special toys, etc. so I'm not sure of exact dates and ages) He was on phenobarb until he was about 4 and then we added potassium bromide because the phenobarb alone just was not doing the trick. His seizures were very violent and frequent and hard to control. There was a time when he was quite heavy - 104#. We got him down to 75 - very healthy and kind of thin but better for his joints. So, after the liver enzymes started to elevate slightly at around 6 1/2 - 7, we tried several different liver supplements which helped with some of the enzyme levels, but not all. None of which caused an increase in seizures.
(He had been taking Vitamin E as well for most of his life)

When he became ataxic and stumbling down the stairs we put him on Denemarin and Milk Thistle (yes, I know the Denemarin has milk thistle in it but the vet said yes) and also a hepatic support herb. Those all helped his enzymes lower and remain stable. I had my puppy back. We started backing off all of them but the Milk Thistle and he remained on the Milk Thistle until dx with lymphoma & started a study. They pulled him off the the milk thistle because it interfered with chemo.

During that ataxic time, we titrated down the phenobarb and increased the potassium bromide. My vet was very sceptical that the pot. brom. would control his seizures but it did.

Althought the cancer at the end was active again, upon necropsy - his liver was very badly damaged. Even though the enzymes done prior to every chemo were good - his liver was horrible. They actually think that had it not been for the liver, that he could have lived a bit longer with the cancer. It was his liver that was making him not eat and feeling horrible, not the cancer as previously thought.

I believe that had we had him on the pot. brom. at the beginning that it would have controlled his seizures better and not damaged his liver. I do understand why they do phenobarb to begin with as it works quicker and pot. brom. is a compound script and sometimes not available. In retrospect, I wished we would have only done the pot. brom.

Just Duke's story. Every dog and every vet is different. Good luck, tennisball! I hope that your pup's seizures are controlled better as well, Shalva.

Also, if your seizure pups are overweight at all, the fat makes the system metabolize the anti-seizure meds different.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I read about Duke with interest.... Cuinn used to be very well controlled but as he has gotten older he is not as well controlled but by no means as bad as he could be compared to others.... the Keppra has made a huge difference and it does come in a generic format. Even with the generic, the medication is 470 dollars for 120 pills now at the moment cuinn is on one pill a day so the lowest dosage possible... and the ataxia has much improved...he is no longer falling and can get up and going... 

Dukes mom is right .... every dog is different and responds to medication differently.... 

My Cuinn is currently on Phenobarbital at 150 mg 2x/day (this is reduced from 300 mg 2xday) Potassium Bromide at 375 mg 2x/day and Keppra 250 mg 2x/day we are hoping to get his phenobarb down to 100 mg 2x/day but are not sure if we can get there.... 

the denamarin is not one I tried but i did try ultra clear plus and cuinn was seizing on it so we removed it and he did better... Cuinn is a bit different as he is very very sensitive to medictaions and medication changes... 

I only jumped in because of the possibility of problems 

now one thing I will say is that on the milk thistle cuinn was not ataxic at all... but my holistic vet and others I spoke to felt that it was a symptom of him not metabolizing the phenobarbital the way he should...


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

5-6 minutes is a long time for a seizure. YOu may want to discuss with the Vet getting some Valium Suppositories to use when he seizes. That can break them out of them almost right away.



tennisball said:


> Hi there  I've been a lurker for quite some time, but never got around to making a thread about my boy, Rocky. I took him in from a family last March who thought they couldn't give him all the attention he deserved because they had three young kids and really didn't know much about dogs. They just saw a cute little puppy at PetLand and didn't realize he'd soon become a big rambunctious fluff of gold : I took him in because once I met him I just fell in love, and knew I had to take him, despite the fact he was from PetLand and could have many health problems. Of course, I asked the parents as many questions as they'd answer, but they really didn't seem to know a lot about him :no:
> 
> He wasn't neutered when he came to me, and according to them, he didn't have any health problems. After living with me for a month or so, he started to have seizures. It turned out that the vet I took him to just happened to be the same vet the last family took him to, and apparently he had been there for a seizure before, but they never put him on medication. Right now he's on 45 mg of phenobarbital twice a day, and although his seizures are less in frequency, they still last about 5-6 minutes. He bounces back from them after 5 minutes and he's completely fine (out of 20 or so seizures, he's only vomited and defecated once). The reason I'm giving you all his life story is because he's getting neutered this Wednesday and I've heard such horror stories about seizure dogs going under anesthesia. I've switched vets because I wasn't comfortable with the old one and I think the veterinarian I work with at the hospital would be a good fit. She looked over his medical history and said he's an okay candidate for surgery, so we're meeting with her Wednesday morning and I'll be with him through the whole process; the pre-med, going under anesthesia, the surgery, and recovery. He's super anxious just going in the car or going to PetSmart, so I hope my presence will help keep him calm so he doesn't seize before the surgery.
> 
> ...


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## tennisball (Oct 14, 2009)

Thanks for all the great input. It's nice to hear different stories and see how each dog reacted. It just seems like there are so many different options with medications and supplements, it can be a bit overwhelming! If he does have another seizure (I don't want to say _when_ he does have another seizure, although it's very likely) I will talk to the doctors about a different plan. They knew from the start I was worried about liver damage. A cocker spaniel who was on pheno for most of his life passed away at work not too long ago, and they assured me that it's very rare for things to get that bad, but I still don't want to risk it. I don't see the point in keeping him on the pheno or increasing the dose if it hasn't controlled his seizures for the past year. 

I think I'll stay away from the milk thistle for now, just to be on the safe side. I'll have to pick some Sam-E up from the store tomorrow. Rocky's vet is also certified to do acupuncture and often prescribes herbal supplements, and at this point, I'm ready to give that a try. There's also laser therapy, though I've never seen anyone use it on a patient for reasons other than arthritis, wounds or post-op.

So sorry to those of you who have/have had epileptic pups as well. A lot of people ask if I regret getting Rocky because of his health problems because he's "high maintenance", and although we have to jump through hoops over and over again until we find the right balance of medication with our dog, I think we all know it's definitely worth it 

And the soft e-collar is from our veterinary clinic. We have the classic "lamp shade" kind, the soft e-collar kind (as shown) and the paper kind for kitties and small dogs. I'm not sure where we order them from, but if your pup has to wear one again, I'd ask if they have any in back that you could use. Most people get the "lamp shade" kind unless the dog has a problem with it, then they'll try the soft e-collars.


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