# Hunt test rule check



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Sorry, I should have specified AKC hunt tests. I am not really familiar with HRC or NAHRA.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

2. You can handle
rules: http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RHTRET.pdf


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Prism Goldens said:


> 2. You can handle
> rules: http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RHTRET.pdf



Really a loaded question, I know the answers, just want to hear what others think, maybe get a little discussion.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Good review this time of year!

1. Only junior gets to use a collar, and it has to be a flat buckle collar. 
2. Senior is a double, not a triple. You can handle, so it doesn’t have to be clean.
3. No lining the dog to any gunner station. Unlike field trials, where you can line the dog to each gunner station.
4. Dark or customary hunting attire, I’m not sure how white camo would work into that scenario? 
5. I don’t remember anything about hanging birds from a dryer. 

I’m apprenticing judging senior this summer and judging one senior test this summer. I’ve judged a lot of junior tests. It will be nice to judge something different.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Thank you, I should have said clean triple in MH. Not giving my answers yet. Again, loaded question. And you are a ringer, you judge!:grin2:


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

#4 is kind of obscure for most people so I'll start with that one. 

White or white cammo is permissible when the hunting scenario is a Snow Goose Hunt. You would also likely see a field full of white decoys as well. This differs from a Field Trial as everyone is wearing white not just the handler and gunners. If you aren't entering a test occurring through the center of the country, you probably won't ever see this scenario.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

> 2. In Master, the dog must complete a clean triple, no handles.



This one can get very complicated for some people.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> #4 is kind of obscure for most people so I'll start with that one.
> 
> White or white cammo is permissible when the hunting scenario is a Snow Goose Hunt. You would also likely see a field full of white decoys as well. This differs from a Field Trial as everyone is wearing white not just the handler and gunners. If you aren't entering a test occurring through the center of the country, you probably won't ever see this scenario.



Thank you, that is when it is appropriate.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> This one can get very complicated for some people.



The problem occurs when the judge insists "There was a rule change specifying clean triple". Find the rule change.:wink2:


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

"5. Birds must be hung on a bird dryer behind the judges."


You can learn a lot by reading the rule book. Thought you might find this interesting. What happens at your hunt tests? Under GUIDELINES PART IV, Section 9:


9. Be sure that birds are not left lying around the line. Marshals should keep them out of sight in bags or other containers.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I'm filling this out before reading past George's first post. Let's see how I do...



gdgli said:


> Quick rule check. Are you familiar with the rules?
> 
> 
> 1. You are not allowed to use a choke chain collar under any circumstances.


False. You can use a choke chain in Senior or Master, and in the holding blind(s) at Junior. You cannot bring a dog to the line in Junior on a choke chain.



> 2. In Master, the dog must complete a clean triple, no handles.


It does not say this in the rulebook.



> 3. The handler is permitted to line the dog to the gun stations upon arriving to the line.


Nope, no pointing out guns



> 4. Under what circumstances is the handler permitted to wear white (white camo)?


Appropriate hunting attire might be white if it is snowing and you're hunting "snow geese." Judges' discretion.



> 5. Birds must be hung on a bird dryer behind the judges.


No. Use of a bird hanger is not required.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Well pretty good Anney. And you probably have guessed at why I brought these rules up.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Time for discussion.


1. You are not allowed to use a choke chain collar under any circumstances.


I was walking Buffy through the holding blinds on a choke chain. A handler looks at me and says that is not allowed. I said it sure is but she chose to debate this with me. I get to the last holding blind, remove it before stepping out of the blind, run the dog. I then ask the judge is this allowed. Answer is "Oh no, you do that at the Master National and you get thrown out." Admittedly I do not know what the rules are at the Master National but I wasn't at the Master National. I got angry, went home and e mailed Jerry Mann, got his reply, printed it out and now keep a copy of it in my car. Since that time I have heard several judges and marshals say the same thing---not allowed. Don't want to judge bash but I think something as basic as this should not be in question, we do go to similar judges' seminars by the same people.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

2. In Master, the dog must complete a clean triple, no handles.


This might be what the judges want to see but it seems to me that it is not required. The triple gets judged, you don't like it, score it as you see it. But the real point is just because something is becoming fashionable (clean triple) it doesn't mean it is in the rules. Seems to me stuff like this tends to be regional.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

3. The handler is permitted to line the dog to the gun stations upon arriving to the line.


A judge says he always does this, insists it is allowed. Again, not judge bashing, just showing a need to be familiar with the rules.



Here is the rule from Chapter 4:

Section 6. In marking situations, a handler shall not line a dog in the direction of any fall or gun station until all falls are down.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

4. Under what circumstances is the handler permitted to wear white (white camo)?


I am always learning. I had this discussion with someone who told me that there is a handler who always shows up with snow camo. I couldn't imagine somebody doing this. This person told me that he is waiting to judge this person. Of course it is appropriate in a snow goose rig but not every set up. Well, again, I had never thought about this, but glad we talked about it.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

5. Birds must be hung on a bird dryer behind the judges.


The rule that addresses this surprised me. You know what happens at hunt tests, bird dryer/hanger is placed where convenient. (One judge placed it purposely to be a distraction.) But this raises the question, how should the birds be stored? 



From the rule book, Guidelines, Part IV, Section 9:


9. Be sure that birds are not left lying around the line. Marshals should keep them out of sight in bags or other containers.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Surprised at the above guideline? I had a debate about this one with a friend last night. He didn't know it either.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

It does amaze me how many people sign up to judge and not only are they not familiar with the rules, but they can't even get the SPIRIT of the rules correct.
The only one I didn't know the specific verbiage on was about the bird hanger/container, which makes sense. I've seen junior judges put the bird hanger next to the dog to "prevent cheating." First off, using tactics like placing woodpiles or other cover immediately down the shore in Junior water to "discourage cheating" gets you two things...a dog who cheats on the way back can't figure out their way around it, or a dog tries so hard to cheat they run the wrong way around the obstacle and get REALLY lost. No dog was ever discouraged from cheating by a well placed branch. IT'S JUST STUPID. To use a BIRD HANGER for that purpose is even MORE STUPID.

It's unbelievable how much mental energy is wasted on freakin CHOKE CHAINS in hunt test discussions. Why AKC cares if a Junior dog wears a choke chain I will never know. In every other venue, dogs in the most basic classes can wear choke chains. It's a very simple rule with a very simple concept and every hunt test the Junior judges have to spend ten minutes going over the rule and half the time they get it WRONG!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> It does amaze me how many people sign up to judge and not only are they not familiar with the rules, but they can't even get the SPIRIT of the rules correct.
> The only one I didn't know the specific verbiage on was about the bird hanger/container, which makes sense. I've seen junior judges put the bird hanger next to the dog to "prevent cheating." First off, using tactics like placing woodpiles or other cover immediately down the shore in Junior water to "discourage cheating" gets you two things...a dog who cheats on the way back can't figure out their way around it, or a dog tries so hard to cheat they run the wrong way around the obstacle and get REALLY lost. No dog was ever discouraged from cheating by a well placed branch. IT'S JUST STUPID. To use a BIRD HANGER for that purpose is even MORE STUPID.
> 
> It's unbelievable how much mental energy is wasted on freakin CHOKE CHAINS in hunt test discussions. Why AKC cares if a Junior dog wears a choke chain I will never know. In every other venue, dogs in the most basic classes can wear choke chains. It's a very simple rule with a very simple concept and every hunt test the Junior judges have to spend ten minutes going over the rule and half the time they get it WRONG!



Anney, you really got the essence of why I started this thread. Now of course I am capable of making mistakes but not knowing the rules is not one of them. You should only know who these judges are. Actually it is quite disconcerting. I do hope you keep reading this thread, I have a little more to say.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

"In every other venue, dogs in the most basic classes can wear choke chains. It's a very simple rule with a very simple concept and every hunt test the Junior judges have to spend ten minutes going over the rule and half the time they get it WRONG!"


Boy did you get this right.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

The dog has just done nice work, the handler gets the bird, leans in, says "Good dog" and pats the dog. The judge shouts out "You can't touch the dog!"


Rule: You cannot touch your dog.




Comment please.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I believe in Senior & Master you can touch the dog once you have been released by the judges from further judging...as in, once you are allowed to put the leash on, you can touch the dog. Junior you can touch the dog once you take the bird.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Interestingly enough this came up in our last hunt test seminar, just as I described it. It was brought up by Jerry Mann's replacement, Greg Lister, who presented the seminar. He said there is no rule that says that you cannot pat your dog and say good boy. He then said, actually quoted the rule below:


Chapter 4 Section 11




Section 11. In Senior and Master Hunting Tests, a handler shall not hold or touch a dog to keep it steady, or verbally restrain a dog on line, except in extraordinary circumstances, from the time the first bird is being thrown until the dog’s number is called. Violation of any of the provisions of this paragraph is sufficient cause to justify a grade of “0” in Trainability.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

The rule states "...shall not hold or touch a dog to keep it steady...". So, there is the rule that addresses touching. I cannot find another rule addressing touching. I must admit to feeling uneasy about informing a judge about this. You see, this exact same thing happened to me, exactly the same thing. And this is another good example of a judge's feeling on the issue becoming a "rule".


The judge said this to me, I assumed it was a rule and didn't question it. And then when I heard this at the seminar I couldn't believe it. This made me aware that this kind of thing just might be more common than I thought. I call this type of rule "Makey Uppy".


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I probably will have one or two more, stay posted.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

> 1. You are not allowed to use a choke chain collar under any circumstances.


Choke chains and slip leads are fine, up to and inside the last holding blind. When the dog exits the holding blind it must be naked. There is an exception for Junior dogs in which a flat buckle collar is allowed. 

The idea here is training aids are not allowed while the dog is being tested. ANY kind of collar that constricts is considered a training aid and is therefore prohibited while the dog is under judgement. So, chain collars and slip leads are not allowed while the dog is under judgement.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

> 2. In Master, the dog must complete a clean triple, no handles.


Contrary to popular belief, there is no such rule and never has been. There is NO requirement that a dog complete a "Clean" triple in Master or double in Senior for that matter, although it can get pretty tough to score enough points in marking to pass without it. 

Much of the confusion arises when a judge doesn't really understand how to properly score marking in multiple bird setups. (This sometimes applies to handlers as well.) Handling on a mark is not the same thing as running a blind. So even if the dog had to be handled on the mark it still might get some credit for marking on that particular bird. It isn't automatically a "no credit " for marking simply because the handler blew the whistle.  The question of "Did the dog indicate a mark?" for that bird is important and has to be answered.


This is a topic that has raised some serious heated debates at the advanced judging seminars. The rules however are what they are, there is no requirement for a Clean Triple in Master.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Swampcollie


Thanks for your input. It does get frustrating. At one hunt test I asked the judge to clarify a rule on choke collars, he didn't get it right. Neither did my co judge at another hunt test.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

> 3. The handler is permitted to line the dog to the gun stations upon arriving to the line.


NO, nope, can't do it.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

> 5. Birds must be hung on a bird dryer behind the judges.


This one is frequently abused at tests.

The birds are to hung on a rack, put in a dryer, bagged, etc. behind the judges and out of view of the participants and spectators. Part of this has to do with fairness to the dogs/handlers. The bigger part of this has to do with political correctness and dead birds.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Re: Political correctness



I won't kill cripples in front of people, I turn around and use a necker. I definitely won't helicopter a bird, risks include: skin comes off, head can come off, bloody, very gruesome.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

gdgli said:


> 3. The handler is permitted to line the dog to the gun stations upon arriving to the line.
> 
> 
> A judge says he always does this, insists it is allowed. Again, not judge bashing, just showing a need to be familiar with the rules.
> ...


What should one do if their dog is locked onto the short flyer station but the first bird out is a very long middle bird (and maybe against a dark background making the bird difficult to see if not paying attention)?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> What should one do if their dog is locked onto the short flyer station but the first bird out is a very long middle bird (and maybe against a dark background making the bird difficult to see if not paying attention)?



Let me ask you, what have you been doing for this? I think that this is more of a training and handling question. I am curious as to what others do. In any event, there is duck calling (I once used a pheasant call) and a shot letting the dog know something is going on. That should get the dog's attention. If not...Well this happened to me. Buffy did not see the bird at the dead bird station. The judge said to me that she didn't see it. Then advised me to just face the station and send her. I did, Buffy went and once reaching the area hunted for the bird. So in a sense she was lined after the marks were down. I as a judge do not want to see you bring your dog to the line and say "Here", place hand over head, then turn and say "Long bird" and place hand over head, etc. then call for birds. 



As a judge, I would try to avoid a situation that makes it difficult to see a bird and have insisted on a change in position of either the gun station or the line. From the Guidelines:


In order to evaluate a dog’s marking ability, dogs must be able to see the bird as it goes up into the air and as it falls.



​


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

> What should one do if their dog is locked onto the short flyer station but the first bird out is a very long middle bird (and maybe against a dark background making the bird difficult to see if not paying attention)?


This is hard to diagnose without seeing the dog and handler working. It could be result of a lot of things. Insufficient obedience, lack of enough flyers in training, handler error, etc.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

gdgli said:


> 2. In Master, the dog must complete a clean triple, no handles.
> 
> 
> This might be what the judges want to see but it seems to me that it is not required. The triple gets judged, you don't like it, score it as you see it. But the real point is just because something is becoming fashionable (clean triple) it doesn't mean it is in the rules. Seems to me stuff like this tends to be regional.



This is one of my pet peeves. I do think an MH dog should be able to run a triple but if this is the judging criteria then they need to give the dog a clean triple to run. I ran a test where the first series was a double with a diversion, dog ran it very clean. Second series triple all comes out of the same holding blind, nailed two marks had one quick whistle on the third bird and ran a phenomenal water blind. Third series, once again everything out of the same holding blind, same scenario. Dog overran third mark, it was pouring rain, high winds so in order to get the bird, stopped dog and one quick handle. Judge says no worries you are fine. Second judge zeroes the dog. 

Judges need to give the dogs a clean triple to run if they are going to use that criteria. This also brings up the question of what is a zero on a mark. The dog marks the area of the fall and either doesn't come up with the bird or the owner gives a quick handle vs, the dog that has no clue where the bird is. Sometimes both are scored the same. I plan to go to my clubs judging seminar this summer to ask about some of these issues.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

TrailDogs


Obviously the judges did not agree. Over running a mark followed by a quick handle earns a zero? Who is that judge kidding? I have some questions to ask that judge. 1) Who trains your dog? 2) What factors did you consider in scoring the dogs? 3) What does your dog do with this, identical conditions? When hunting? 4) How about a quick handle preferable to a big hunt?


I hope that the one judge argued on your behalf.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Things get messy when dogs start handling. Like you said, if you're setting up a test make sure your marks have well defined areas of the fall. Overlapping AOFs, inline birds, etc...you are trying to trick a dog and punishing them for using their noses (or punishing them for being dogs). 
If I'm judging I want to see a dog proceed to the AOF and indicate to me where he thinks the bird is. That's what he is marking. Does he indicate the mark near where it actually is? Then if he hunts forever and needs a handle to get him in, that's less of a penalty. Does he blow through the AOF at 90 miles an hour and keep trucking? Does he take a line to no mans' land? Does the handler blow the whistle before he even gets to the AOF? All of those three scenarios the dog has shown he doesn't know where the mark is (0 in marking) or the handler prevented me as a judge in observing if the dog knows where the mark is (0 in marking) so yes...you get a big fat zero for that. You better hope your other marks were super to even out. How can I give you anything but a zero if you showed you didn't know where the mark was?

I've only judged Junior & Senior and here's how it's gone. The very very few times I've had a dog handle in Junior, actually I can think of two dogs that were nearly identical. They totally blew up their first mark, hunting NO WHERE near it and/or coming in without a bird when the handler attempts to handle them back to the AOF. The dog, being a Junior dog, naturally doesn't handle well, so it's a struggle. They let him hunt it up at the end. I'm marking a big zero in my book. You only get four marks in Junior, you gotta show me something on every one. THANK GOD the dog did EXACTLY the same thing on mark #2. Clearly this is an untrained dog or a dog with a big hangup. It's unquestionable to fold the page on that dog. If he had absolutely pinned his other three marks, I would have consulted with my co-judge. If I wanted to zero him on one and they were adamant passing him, I'd probably pass the dog with some private discussion with the handler. If the dog had hunted in the AOF and indicated it knew where the bird was but just got lost and the handler was able to get him back there with handling, that's OK too.

In senior you are allowed a handle and because these are doubles and more memory is involved I am OK with a dog handling on one of the marks so long as it's a decent handle. This has bailed out many a senior dog on the water double!!! However I distinctly remember failing one dog who handled on BOTH memory birds. In both the land and water series, the dog popped on both memory birds about 10 feet out, handler put up an arm and said back, dog proceeded directly to the bird. Obviously this is a training hangup. The dog knew where the bird was. But that's a pop and a handle in anyone's book. This is not a Senior level work if I'm judging. Handler's wife was super mad at ME for failing the dog!! I said come back next time I judge and don't handle on both series! They did just that and I gave the dog a ribbon!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

This clean triple is completely used and abused. It is ridiculous. You get the work based on the test you set up. Most of these dogs are good! Do they surprise you sometimes? Heck yes. But in general they can mark and they respond good to the handles on a blind. 

Pretty much all your questions have been answered. And everything is in the rule book. The "clean triple" "clean double" tailgate rules come down to judging and judges' knowledge of setting up tests. 

The white clothing - well, funny you mention this. Seen it done several times.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

What do the rules say about this?


The judge fires a diversion shot from near the line as the dog is running a land blind. The judge then ejects the spent shell, reloads, closes the action and lays the gun across the arms of a collapsible chair. The handler is then led to a pond and instructed to run a water blind.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Criminy that judge really would like to get written up wouldn't they? Soooo much wrong here...


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

gdgli said:


> What do the rules say about this?
> 
> 
> The judge fires a diversion shot from near the line as the dog is running a land blind. The judge then ejects the spent shell, reloads, closes the action and lays the gun across the arms of a collapsible chair. The handler is then led to a pond and instructed to run a water blind.



where is the co judge? Where is the event committee?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> where is the co judge? Where is the event committee?



Haha


First---What do the rules say about this? Then I would like to open a small discussion about this.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

At this point and as a followup to Swampcollie's comment...


NOTHING I HAVE POSTED, EITHER IN MY ORIGINAL POST OR FOLLOWUP, IS MADE UP! OCCURRENCES/INCIDENTS ARE REAL. WE HAVE A NEED TO BE TOTALLY FAMILIAR WITH THE RULES.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

gdgli said:


> What do the rules say about this?
> 
> 
> The judge fires a diversion shot from near the line as the dog is running a land blind. The judge then ejects the spent shell, reloads, closes the action and lays the gun across the arms of a collapsible chair. The handler is then led to a pond and instructed to run a water blind.



OK, here goes. What bothers me the most is the unsafe gun handling. While this was done the muzzle of the re loaded gun was pointed in my direction and moved across my chest while I was in the holding blind. To complicate matters in the past I have found live shells mixed in with blanks in the gunner's ammo box, can be unknowingly loaded into popper gun.. And blanks themselves are dangerous. Then to have any gun, loaded or unloaded, with a closed action when not in the gunner's hand is extremely unsafe. Next, you have a loaded gun placed across the arms of a collapsible cloth folding chair... 



And now for what I see in the rules. From Chapter 3:


Section 8. Gunning. Shooting, whether live or blank ammunition is used, shall be done only by official Guns approved and designated by the Hunting Test Committee.Handlers while running their dogs, and Judges while acting in their official capacities judging dogs, shall not fire guns with live or blank ammunition.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I don't think handlers register complaints with the hunt test committee as often as they should. I've seen some crazy stuff in the short time I've been running dogs. 
I only judge junior, which is hard enough without blinds, I can't imagine how hard it is to set up a fair test in master. So many factors to consider. 

In junior all I really have to worry about is whether the dog that rolled on the duck should be out or if the dog parading their duck around should be out. The rest of junior is fairly straight forward. 

I think everyone running a dog in a hunt test, should take a hunter ed class. Anyone shooting for a test should also. Along with the judges. How can you judge a hunt test if you haven't taken hunter ed?
Safety is my priority. Nothing more annoying than going to pack up a gunner station and someone left a load in the popper gun. 

Next is dog abuse. I haven't had to write anyone up for it, and I hope I never will.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

gdgli said:


> OK, here goes. What bothers me the most is the unsafe gun handling.


Is AKC a lot different than HRC when it comes to gun handling? If that would have happened at an HRC event I feel like there would have been an uproar as every test I've been to is super serious about gun safety (as they should be)!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Also besides being super unsafe, judges are not supposed to make themselves elements of the test. They are not supposed to shoot guns, throw birds, etc.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Does anyone have a cheat sheet they put with their judging forms when they judge? I have one for spaniel tests. It lists the elements required for each level. It helps me remember what I'm looking for. It would be nice if someone had one for AKC retriever tests.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Alaska7133 said:


> I don't think handlers register complaints with the hunt test committee as often as they should. I've seen some crazy stuff in the short time I've been running dogs.
> I only judge junior, which is hard enough without blinds, I can't imagine how hard it is to set up a fair test in master. So many factors to consider.
> 
> In junior all I really have to worry about is whether the dog that rolled on the duck should be out or if the dog parading their duck around should be out. The rest of junior is fairly straight forward.
> ...



I will address that with my next incident.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Misconduct/rule compliance hearings come with the territory. They are a necessary evil to keep things on course.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

What do the rules say about this walkup double? 

Start walking from A at the 6 0'clock position toward flyer station. Upon reaching point B the dead bird station goes off followed by the flyer shot from near the 12-1 o'clock position.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Seems like a pretty typical senior set up to me. The dead bird seems a little bit behind the line, so I’d suggest it be moved to 9 o’clock, with the bird landing closer to the 10 o’clock. I like birds closer together than further apart. The dead bird looks like it might be hard to find after picking up the flyer. On the other hand, it supposed to be a memory bird right?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Dead bird is a memory bird.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I saw nothing wrong BUT...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Not wild about that setup especially for senior. It's not practical either. How does a hunter walking along know there is a bird behind him, and how does he see it to shoot at it. There are not to be attention getting devices from the walkup bird, and the handler is not to point out the location of the gun before the bird flies, so at best the dog is turning around to look at the bird while it is in the air, thanks to the shot from the gunning station. Do you really want to ask a senior dog to be out of control enough to turn 180º out of heel position and see a bird? How good do you feel as a judge if compliant, obedient dogs are not seeing birds thanks to your setup?


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Yah that’s why I thought the memory bird should be moved to 9 o’clock, falling closer to 10 o’clock.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Alaska and K9


Thank you for your input. I am sometimes a little unaware, my feeling is that my dog retrieves and will get anything. I did think this looked odd but what the heck, bird falls and my dog should get it. Then I saw what all the dogs did. Almost none of them saw the memory bird. When a latecomer handler arrived (well known, HT and FT) she came over to us and said "How can you let them set up a test like this? This test is designed to trick the dog." 

I gave it some thought. You are walking toward a flyer station in the open, closing the distance, dog focused on what he is walking to. You pass the dead bird station and the bird goes off behind you while you are walking. Maybe she is right. 

From Guidelines PART I:


Never set up tests that are designed to trick the dog.


Discussion of this exact test came up at our Judges' Seminar. I learned that this type of test had actually gained momentum and became "the flavor of the month", somewhat regional. I am sorry that I didn't hear what the presenter said about this but he certainly did not say nothing wrong with this. There was some kind of comment, maybe like you shouldn't set up this test.


Handler was ticked off and I believe she was right.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

If that was the first series I would have scratch my dogs from the test and made sure that the event committee understood why.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> If that was the first series I would have scratch my dogs from the test and made sure that the event committee understood why.





You are absolutely correct. And half of the anger of the handler mentioned above was because we didn't do this. What I don't understand about this test is...Why? What I also don't understand is its continued usage. 

As far as test setup, nobody ever accused me of setting up a foolish test like this.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I attended a judging seminar in February. I miss Jerry Mann, that’s all I’ll say. I’m not sure if I like where retriever hunt tests are headed with our new AKC instructors.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Alaska7133 said:


> I attended a judging seminar in February. I miss Jerry Mann, that’s all I’ll say. I’m not sure if I like where retriever hunt tests are headed with our new AKC instructors.



You would have liked the old days.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

KIND OF A SUMMARY


There are rules to any sport. We handlers should really know the rules for our level inside and out. You would be surprised how many show up at a WC/WCX and don't know the rules let alone AKC hunt test rules. But we should know them. 



Judges may also be unsure. They can confuse organizations. They may also misunderstand rules. And then there is the problem of something becoming an "unwritten rule", repeated often enough and it becomes "law". 



I must admit, I need to read the rules frequently. I study them before judging. But I do it.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I study the rules too. But I have found the rules aren't well organized, so some things show up in unusual places. 

This summer I'm judging senior for the first time. I'm also judging 2 master, 2 senior and 2 junior spaniel hunt tests too. We just junior, senior, master in order all by the same judges. Junior starts at 9, with senior to follow and master to follow. So you can judge all 3 levels in one day.

I think I've done my quota for 2019!


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

gdgli said:


> Quick rule check. Are you familiar with the rules?
> 
> 
> 1. You are not allowed to use a choke chain collar under any circumstances.
> ...


 I know it's an old thread but here are my answers.
1. False, you can lead a dog to the line with whatever leash and collar you want.
2. False but should be true
3. False and even if permitted it would be a poor training habit.
4. Handlers have to wear dark of camo clothes. Stupid rule.
5. Not a rule just a wise practice.


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