# Shady breeder



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

i meant opinions not options sorry


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> 7 am to 6 pm everyday


Unless you have somebody at home to take care of the puppy or you can afford daycare, or you can arrange for a series of breaks where you are going home at lunchtime and in the afternoon to take care of the puppy, that's really too long a day to keep a puppy cooped up alone. 

That's very likely why the breeder drove 10 hours to pick up the puppy and made the arrangement to raise her for you. 

That said - holy cow. I would want my money back if they are not responding and seem to have really cut you off cold. 

Can you drive 10 hours to pay them a visit in person and get this settled out?

*** Did she cash the balance or just the deposit ($200 or whatever?)? The reason why I ask is those deposits are viewed as nonrefundable. If she cashed the entire $1000 and was refusing to give you your money back, that would be different.


----------



## toliva (Nov 24, 2011)

Wow, that is awful. Have you googled/researched this breeder and maybe has anyone reported anything similar?

I'm sure some of the more knowledgable folks will have advice for you... It seems that maybe small claims court might be an option.


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

I would come home during lunch and play with her for about 45 minutes everyday, and no i dont have time to drive ten hours back down there to confront her, my dad told me i just need to go to the court house and file suit, Zoey is beautiful, when she gets older she will be perfect.


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

there are people on here that would probably know this breeder, she was very nice, and the family was well off. all her goldens were champions


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Do you have a contract or anything that says you own the dog? I do not want at all to sound mean here, but if after four days, the pup was really frustrating you, then maybe it was the wrong decision. You have acknowledged this. If the breeder, has possession of the pup, IMO, the money should be returned... Better Business Bureau or Small Claims?


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't mean to harp, but 45 minutes out of 12 hour day is really not enough time for a puppy. Not enough for socialization. Not enough for training. Even with adult dogs, my vet said 8 hours tops. 

And again, you might not have a case if you agreed that the check they cashed was nonrefundable. If that was part of the purchase agreement and you are talking about a deposit vs the whole thing.


----------



## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

As Megora asked, did she cash your 1000 or just the deposit for the puppy? Is it possible that something has happened to the breeder or to someone in her family and she's just not available right now?

On a side note, I'm shocked that a breeder would sell a puppy to someone with the work schedule you have. I'm pretty certain Flora's breeder would have said NO to someone who worked 12 hour days. That would be so much work for you and it would be unfair to the puppy.

Good luck with this, I hope you get things sorted out.


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

The fact is she is stealing the dog and not returning my money, yes i work a lot but my schedule varies every week, now that i know how difficult it is to raise a puppy i probably wouldnt have took her, and yes i signed a contract but when he asked for the akc papers the contract was underneath it and i didnt realize it, this breeder is being very dishonest right now, i praised her to everyone saying how professional she was and now this happens.


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

and nothing happened to her, she blocked me on facebook and people dont do that unless they really dont want you to find them


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

But again, are you talking about a deposit or the cost of the puppy? 

When I purchased my dog the breeder read over the contract to make sure I understood that if I changed my mind the breeder would only return half of my deposit (which was $450, half the purchase price). When I signed that contract, I agreed to that. Meaning that if I decided not to buy that puppy, I was out $200 bucks. 

If the deposit was nonrefundable and you signed that contract, then you can't get that money back.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

If your money has not been returned... You should pursue this....


----------



## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

I work 12 HR shifts but my dogs go to grandma and grandpa's house on the nights I work. If they can't 1 night I need to work- I beg and trade shifts with coworkers.

OP so sorry this happened to you. I hope you get your money back. I would send a certified threat type letter about suing her and such with a deadline to hear from them. This will prove she got the letter. You should the contact the court system/ an attorney for assistance in her area as needed if she is in a different state than you. There laws could differ from your own.


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

I just read through the contract it mentions nothing about payment not being non refundable, this is ridiculous, thanks for the replies :/


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

But if you don't have the dog and they have the money, where does that leave you?


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

filing a suit


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Listen to your dad. File a suit.


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

im going to wait a few more days, just in case she put a check in the mail with my refund.


----------



## Phoebe's mom (Jan 17, 2012)

Holy!! Yeah file a law suit, that's crazy!! They sold you a dog and stole it back! Who are these people?? Contact your SPCA. I would be dying right now!! I wonder how many other times they have done this! These people are nuts.


----------



## Phoebe's mom (Jan 17, 2012)

Do you have emails saying that the sale had been complete? They took the papers so they can just distory them. You could say that they had intent when he asked for them at the door so there purpose to come pick up the dog and never bring it back. I think you have a case. Did you take a lot of pictures at the breeders and at home. Maybe one of his AKC certificate? 
Good luck.


----------



## My Big Kahuna (Dec 14, 2011)

I don't have any more insight to offer than what has already been given but I am curious to hear the outcome and I hope it's in your favor.............. At least you were being honest with the breeder about being overwhelmed... The least she could have done is reciprocate honesty...


----------



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

ryan74701 said:


> I just read through the contract it mentions nothing about payment not being non refundable, this is ridiculous, thanks for the replies :/


I'm confused. Is the contract posted on their website? You said you gave your copy to the husband by accident when you gave over the AKC papers.

Did the breeder cash the purchase check or just the deposit check?


----------



## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

You say you left one message... and emailed... and that now you're blocked on Facebook. If I were you, I'd be calling once an hour every hour until I get an answer. And what was the time-frame agreed to that they would train the pup at their home? Is it possible that they are just keeping up their end of the bargain and doing the training? (I'm just asking - not taking sides. Trying to stay neutral). 

I'm still unclear on what you paid. 

1 - Was there a deposit that you paid to put a hold on the pup? How much? That part would be non-refundable.

2 - In what form did you pay the balance? If by cheque, did they cash it? If not, stop payment.

Call the Golden Retriever Club to whom these breeders belong and report what has happened. If they are truly ethical breeders in good standing, the GRC should know about this.

They have every right to take back a pup they are concerned about - but not in this underhanded way. And at the very least, you should be repaid the balance (not the initial deposit).


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I would call the breeder again, email her and keep notes of all days and times of the calls and print out the emails. Filing a lawsuit, whether in small claims or not, is still a serious undertaking. And you need to be able to show you did more than just file the complaint. It is possible they were out of town at shows last week, since there were a lot of multi day circuits last weekend.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

This is an unfortunate situation, and I am wondering what your thoughts are now about if you are truly ready for/ want a puppy with your lifestyle? Did you drive down there to pick her up? Would you rather have the puppy back or your money back? The priority here is the welfare of the baby dog, and then the ethics of the transactions between you and the breeder. Maybe they are discussing what to do about the situation and still think she is going back to you? Maybe between the deposit, the gas to drive and pick her up, and the charge for boarding/training, they feel (rightly or wrongly) that the finances are a wash. Maybe they are super busy, and will send a check when they rehome the puppy, and perhaps are upset that they put the puppy in the wrong fit between human and dog? I wouldnt overread into facebook stuff. Good breeders care about their reputations, and I bet they are problem-solving and trying to figure out what to do between crazy show weekends


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I believe if they cashed the final check, that is considered a legal contract. Did you have anything in the memo saying "Paid in Full" or "Puppy"?

Didn't she ask the question on what the puppy's schedule would be during the day BEFORE accepting you deposit?

She is the one that broke your contract, I would go to small claim's court.

I would think that any ethical breeder who makes the choice to take back a puppy would especially in the first weeks, would want to refund the owner.


----------



## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

I live in Ohio so check your laws, they may differ, but...the problem with small claims court is - 1) you will have to file in her county or where ever the business was conducted, that means driving the 10 hours for filing and court date, and 2) even if the judge rules in your favor it's up to you to collect. 

When my husband had a small business he took a customer to small claims court for non-payment, the judge ruled in his favor but he never did get the money. The time spent filing papers and going to court all the while taking off work to do these things ended compounding the loss. It was a royal PIA which netted us nothing.


----------



## puddinhd58 (Jan 15, 2009)

Just a couple questions.....

What exactly have you paid? ( you don't seem to want to answer this..??)

Were the breeders made aware that you work 12 hours a day? 


I am sorry for what you are experiencing, however, it does not sound as if you are in any way ready for a puppy and you know it.....

I hope things get resolved and maybe you can put more thought into an older dog?


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Did you have your puppy wellness check up at your vet yet?

Did your vet record any of your records?


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

This is what I saw in the first post and why I kept mentioning the deposit thingy. 



> and a check image from my bank when she cashed the *puppy deposit check*


It really depends on what the purchase agreement said about the deposit.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

puddinhd58 said:


> Were the breeders made aware that you work 12 hours a day?


This is what I keep wondering. If this breeder is so reputable (and by coming and getting the puppy, it definitely does seem like they care), why would they let you get a puppy in the first place when you're gone too long to properly raise and care for it? Did you not tell them your schedule? Maybe if that's the case, she also feels duped and took the puppy back because of it.


----------



## Phoebe's mom (Jan 17, 2012)

If I was a scam breeder I would drive 10 hours for $1000 too. They got paid, they have the puppy, they could sell the puppy again and get another $1000. Or maybe sell it for less without papers so they can stay under the radar.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Regardless of the op's work schedule which is not the issue here, if the breeder took the puppy and the purchase price of the puppy they need to be brought to justice.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Phoebe's mom said:


> Or maybe sell it for less without papers so they can stay under the radar.


She shows so definitely not able to stay "under the radar". If they're that involved with their dogs they wouldn't be difficult to find. In fact I did a quick search and I'm pretty sure I found them. Just googled "Fort Collins, CO Golden Retriever breeders" and they, (if it's them), came up first.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Regardless of the op's work schedule which is not the issue here...


Of course it's the issue, or one of the issues, at least...it's what got the ball rolling.


----------



## Phoebe's mom (Jan 17, 2012)

If they sell the puppy without papers and act like a backyard breeder or something they could sell the puppy online for $500-700 and no one could trace it back to them except for the micro chip which is easy to change.


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Just looking at the website of what I guess is the breeder that is being talked about here. She does specialize in "puppy training" for her puppy owners to get through and socialize for the first two weeks to three months.

I always look at things optimistically - do you suppose this is just a matter of miscommunication? Did she speak about money for this boarding and training?

Did you say something else that might have scared her - you said you had multiple calls in those first few days to her?


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Phoebe's mom said:


> If they sell the puppy without papers and act like a backyard breeder or something they could sell the puppy online for $500-700 and no one could trace it back to them except for the micro chip which is easy to change.


Seriously? C'mon, that's a little silly, isn't it? I doubt that people who put so much time and effort into their dogs would do anything like that. Why on earth would they risk their reputation and future litter sales "pretending" to be BYBs.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> Of course it's the issue, or one of the issues, at least...it's what got the ball rolling.


Actually no it's not. The op was frustrated with potty training and such. Many people have raised well adjusted dogs while working full time. The issue is the breeder has his money* and* dog and is not returning calls and e-mails......


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Actually no it's not. The op was frustrated with potty training and such. Many people have raised well adjusted dogs while working full time. The issue is the breeder has his money* and* dog and is not returning calls and e-mails......


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. 

And yes, people can raise well adjusted dogs while working full time, but...not when that puppy is left alone "from 7 am to 6 pm everyday". I consider that cruel, especially if crated. More so for a Golden puppy that _thrives_ on human companionship. If arragements are made for the puppy to be let out a few times during that time frame, okay, but if not, then no I don't believe it will mature into a well adjusted dog.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
> 
> And yes, people can raise well adjusted dogs while working full time, but...not when that puppy is left alone "from 7 am to 6 pm everyday". I consider that cruel, especially if crated. More so for a Golden puppy that _thrives_ on human companionship. If arragements are made for the puppy to be let out a few times during that time frame, okay, but if not, then no I don't believe it will mature into a well adjusted dog.


 
And that's fine but this thread is not about our views on how to raise a puppy........


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> And that's fine but this thread is not about our views on how to raise a puppy........


I only made my comment in reference to yours...


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> I only made my comment in reference to yours...


Oh so you want to meet my well adjusted dog LOL!
Now back to our scheduled program......the one where the breeder disappeared with the money and the dog.....


----------



## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

But, it is too long, for a pup to be by itself, i feel, why don't people think of this before they buy a dog?


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Oh so you want to meet my well adjusted dog


Oh, geez...


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> Oh, geez...


Thank you and Mr. Wyatt thanks you too:


----------



## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Oh so you want to meet my well adjusted dog LOL!
> Now back to our scheduled program......the one where the breeder disappeared with the money and the dog.....


She was referring to your comment, not your dogs. 

To the OP:
Just one note that nobody has mentioned yet: Don't read too much in to Facebook. That site messes up more than just about any other I know of. Multiple times I have ended up blocked from seeing any of my sister-in-law's posts/pictures through no intention of her own. If I didn't look close enough I would have thought she had unfriended me, but that was never the case. It's happened to me with other people too, where I've gotten a message asking why I've blocked someone (I have never blocked anyone from seeing anything on that site. If I don't want someone to see my stuff I don't accept the friend request in the first place). Don't jump the gun, keep trying to reach them. You never know what may be going on in their lives.

Side note: It seems from your posts that you are content to allow them to have the dog if your money is returned. Perhaps I've misread that but it is how things are coming across in this thread. If that is the case, perhaps you should let them know that up front. I can't imagine parting with my puppy after 4 days because of frustration over anything. Understand that even if they keep the dog for a few weeks to months and work out the housebreaking thing and maybe some basic manners that it is still going to take a significant amount of work from you to maintain and build upon that. Just because a dog knows a behavior does not mean they will perform it for someone they feel no connection too. You will be behind the curve in building the bond you should be forming now with your puppy. Think about whether you have the time and commitment to devote to this dog in a few weeks/months before you consider taking her back into your home. I'm not saying that to be judgmental or to suggest you are a bad person or anything like that... just saying I think it's something you really need to reflect on. Whatever you choose, good luck.


Julie, Jersey and Oz


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Jersey's Mom said:


> She was referring to your comment, not your dogs.


Thanks I know. My dog was in reference to my comment working full time raising a puppy.


----------



## bioteach (Nov 13, 2010)

What a crazy situation! When we bought Nugget the breeder put our home/ our lives/schedules, etc. under a microscope. Then we had a personal interview that included several of her dogs. She wanted to see whether or not dogs liked US. 

So, I really know that her dogs and their puppies are her first concern.

That being said, if we didn't pass her "tests" we would have expected her to approach us with honest intentions and refund every penny if she wanted her puppy back.

Have you contacted your local Better Business Bureau? The breeder can't have her puppy AND the money too.


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Have to admit this is a bazaar situation. Don't know the who the breeder iis but if the OP researched like they state maybe it is a miscommunication issue. 
If the breeder is as active as the OP states something to consider is is the breeder at shows. The GRCA Western Regional Specialty is going on this week and if they planned a road trip with shows before the Regional it could help to explain the lack of response from them. 
Hope it gets resolved quickly and to all's satisfaction. :wave:


----------



## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> If the breeder is as active as the OP states something to consider is is the breeder at shows. The GRCA Western Regional Specialty is going on this week and if they planned a road trip with shows before the Regional it could help to explain the lack of response from them.


Good catch - I had forgotten about it but I'm fairly sure that this breeder is at the Western Regional. The shows run through Monday of next week.


----------



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Some people are working under the assumption that the OP paid in full for the puppy, yet the OP has avoided answering this question throughout the thread. We also don't know what all was included in the contract or what the breeder was told originally about how long the puppy would be left at home, unattended. Since the OP "unintentionally" handed over the contract along with the puppy's AKC papers, the OP may not have any legs to stand on. No contract and possibly not having paid full price for the puppy may have made what the breeder did totally reasonable.


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

Thanks for the replies, Sorry I just got home from work. 

Yes, the puppy was too overwhelming for me and my work schedule, when i first sought out buying a dog i wasnt working as much as i do now, UPS changes our schedules a lot at my hub, and yes if the breeder would have told me that she felt i wasnt ready to raise the puppy i would have gave her back, and the contract does not say the payment or the deposit is non refundable, i paid the deposit in a check for 200 that she cashed, and the remaining 800 in person in cash (wont ever do that again), but the facts are, she has my dog and my money, she has BLOCKED me on facebook her and her husband that is not a glitch ive already had a friend confirm if she still has a facebook and she does, she is doing it intentionally to not talk to me, no telling if she has blocked my email address, right now i would like my money back since as everyones already that with my schedule im not ready for zoey and i wouldnt want her to stay in her area all day ill attach a pic of where i set her up at night and during the day. The breeder is very well off so i dont understand why she is doing this zero communication so she can keep the money. I'm very amateur when it comes to dogs and i always called her when i had questions and they were always super friendly towards me, so that makes this even more confusing.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Thank you for explaining. 

I think you definitely need to contact somebody at the local club. As you have paid in full for your puppy and they took her back, they need to refund that $800.


----------



## Nomes (Nov 7, 2011)

while i think that you probably aren't at the best point in your life to have a dog, they shouldn't be doing this! if you've paid for the dog in full, and then they took her and refuse to give her back...yup, they're in the wrong! So you should either get your money or your puppy back! If they aren't answering you, take it to court...i haven't read the whole thread, but you don't seem to be getting far in your attempts to contact them...maybe it's time to let the law step in.
Good luck to you and Zoey!  I really hope this works out for everyone!


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

should have got a cat! LOL! jk  thank you for your reply, or maybe an adult dog :/


----------



## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Have you tried calling them with a different number(like a friend or your dad)? So if in fact they are intentionally trying to avoid you, they won't know its you.... I'm not convinced they are trying to intentionally avoid you, if they are in fact as reputable as they sound. The set up you have looks pretty nice, too bad your schedule is not reliable. We generally don't place puppies in homes where they will spend more than 4 hours a day on average alone, if that means a doggy day care for some of the day, thats ok. But working full time and being by yourself is a lot to properly socialize a puppy, especially if you are new to raising dogs.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

It sounds like it really wasn't a good fit to begin with. I think the breeder owes you the $800 minus the expenses from picking her up and any other expenses incurred in rehoming the dog (vet visit, etc). JMHO.


----------



## Stumpjumper (Feb 22, 2012)

You should get your money back but not the pup IMO... that is just neglect leaving it in that little space with nobody to love it all day long.. Sorry to sound harsh, but I assume you wouldn't do the same with your child would you? If your golden pup isn't as important as a child to people they shouldn't have one.


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

no she gets nothing for picking her up, i didnt ask her to pick the dog up, she offered too, there was no mention of me paying for the expenses.


----------



## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

It's been since last Friday that they stopped responding to you and there's a Regional Specialty in the area. I wouldn't jump the gun and go contacting the club and lawyers and all that yet. They may seem well off to you, but that doesn't mean that they have liquid funds to give you an immediate refund, especially if the money from that litter is what they are using to fund their trip to the regionals. They may not be able to send it until payday or until they rehome the dog, and they may not be checking their email while on the road. I know, that does nothing for your finances or your piece of mind at this moment... but before you burn this bridge any more severely than it's already been, give them a chance to make it right. Give them enough time to get back from the regional, then try contacting them again if you still haven't heard anything. If they're still not answering at that point, then take the next step.

And with the Facebook thing -- I agree, the fact that it's both of them would support your feeling that they've intentionally blocked you. I initially missed the fact that it was the husband too. But you do have to realize that you've let them down big time in all this. They trusted you enough to send one of their babies home with you and you didn't make it past day 4. It's not really surprising that they don't want to see your posts about life/work/friends/whatever right now. As upset as you are with them right now, I think it's safe to assume they feel the same way. That's what I was referring to above about the burnt bridge. But remember, the community of reputable breeders can be a fairly tight knit group. So you need to do your best to end this situation in an amicable way -- even if it turns out they are 100% in the wrong -- for your own benefit should you choose to give the idea of a puppy another whirl someday when your situation is more conducive and less likely to change at a moment's notice. Eventually forgiving someone for getting in over their head with a puppy is certainly feasible. Forgiving someone for publicly coming after your reputation afterward is a lot less likely. Just my thoughts, make of it what you will.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

@stumpjumper 

you are basically suggesting that no one with a full time job should ever have a dog, like it was outside on a chain running around in circles , the dog wasn't tortured in that space, but i agree i don't think a dog should be in a space that small for that long though, I've already admitted i don't think im ready for a puppy, we've already acknowledged this.


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

Jersey's Mom said:


> It's been since last Friday that they stopped responding to you and there's a Regional Specialty in the area. I wouldn't jump the gun and go contacting the club and lawyers and all that yet. They may seem well off to you, but that doesn't mean that they have liquid funds to give you an immediate refund, especially if the money from that litter is what they are using to fund their trip to the regionals. They may not be able to send it until payday or until they rehome the dog, and they may not be checking their email while on the road. I know, that does nothing for your finances or your piece of mind at this moment... but before you burn this bridge any more severely than it's already been, give them a chance to make it right. Give them enough time to get back from the regional, then try contacting them again if you still haven't heard anything. If they're still not answering at that point, then take the next step.
> 
> And with the Facebook thing -- I agree, the fact that it's both of them would support your feeling that they've intentionally blocked you. I initially missed the fact that it was the husband too. But you do have to realize that you've let them down big time in all this. They trusted you enough to send one of their babies home with you and you didn't make it past day 4. It's not really surprising that they don't want to see your posts about life/work/friends/whatever right now. As upset as you are with them right now, I think it's safe to assume they feel the same way. That's what I was referring to above about the burnt bridge. But remember, the community of reputable breeders can be a fairly tight knit group. So you need to do your best to end this situation in an amicable way -- even if it turns out they are 100% in the wrong -- for your own benefit should you choose to give the idea of a puppy another whirl someday when your situation is more conducive and less likely to change at a moment's notice. Eventually forgiving someone for getting in over their head with a puppy is certainly feasible. Forgiving someone for publicly coming after your reputation afterward is a lot less likely. Just my thoughts, make of it what you will.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz


I'm going to give it another week or so, i understand what you're saying and agree.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

ryan I wouldn't wait. Have a friend call and inquire about their litters or upcoming litters....see if someone else can get ahold of them... that way you can be factual in your assumptions of them trying to avoid you. If you wait it would look bad in your defense if you need to pursue this as a lawsuit. JMHO.
And please don't feel the need to defend yourself for realizing that it was too overwhelming for you to raise a puppy at this time. You did the right thing by reaching out to the breeder. 
For what it's worth there are some people with the mentality that people that work full time should not be raising a puppy when in fact the reality is people do and they do it with no adverse effects. You deserve a full refund IMHO.


----------



## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

Stumpjumber--I can't imagine leaving my child alone for any length of time. But, we did leave Maddie in her kennel. From 7:45 (when I go to work) until 10 (when hubby came home & checked on her), again until 1:00 ish, then until I got home from work @ 3:30. You can indeed work full time with a puppy, you just need the right circumstances.


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

If it makes you feel better, I have a friend a few years ago who wanted a lab puppy. They did their research, found a very good breeder. Waited for the puppy to be born. She was a stay at home wife, the husband took two weeks vacation off to train the puppy. After planning for almost a year, reading everything they could ( this was their first dog ) - they brought the puppy home and within a few hours realized owning a puppy wasn't for them and too much work. They returned it the same day. Just thought I would share that, better to find out now, and not when the puppy is a year old and harder to rehome.


----------



## knewcom3 (Jan 18, 2012)

Any news? I am curious how this is going to play out.


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

hello! 

no news as of yet, going to give her till tomorrow and then going to call her again.


----------



## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

If this was me, I would grab your dad, drive 10 hours and wait at her house until she comes out to talk to you face to face.

This is a horrible situation to be in, hopefully you will get some peace soon.


----------



## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

ryan74701 said:


> hello!
> 
> no news as of yet, going to give her till tomorrow and then going to call her again.


Don't forget, there is a high likelyhood that this breeder is at a 5 day series of dog shows in AZ and may not be home until Tuesday.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

ragtym said:


> Don't forget, there is a high likelyhood that this breeder is at a 5 day series of dog shows in AZ and may not be home until Tuesday.


Wouldn't a breeder leave that message on their answering machine? And she should have a cell phone to check messages.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I would NEVER leave a message on my home phone saying I'm going to be out of town. I may as well leave a message saying "I'm going to be out of town until Monday so please come rob us blind!"


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I would NEVER leave a message on my home phone saying I'm going to be out of town. I may as well leave a message saying "I'm going to be out of town until Monday so please come rob us blind!"


Unless she is taking all dogs I would assume someone is home taking care of them. 
Regardless most people with businesses or not check for messages while away from home.......


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I don't, to be honest. If family or friends need to get in touch with us they have our mobile numbers, and if they don't have those numbers then it can probably wait until we get back.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Gosh I could leave a message with both my breeders anytime and it would be returned in a reasonable amount of time.....especially when we they just released the litters.....I would think since the op received one of five puppies that a responsible breeder would want to be available for all the new buyers........but that's just me I suppose.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Right, except they already had to drive 10 hours to pick up this puppy. Like Jersey's Mom said above, I think the feelings of anger/disappointment/irritation are likely mutual. If I were them, he would likely be getting a call next week if I were at the shows in Scottsdale. JMHO.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

However holding someones money is not only illegal but unethical. A reputable breeder would not do this *IMHO*. However I think the op is making a mistake by waiting also.......You know the old saying....."Dad knows best". The excuse of being at an event is just a cop out.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I think it's a mistake to assume that one knows the reason behind this breeder's actions. They may, legitimately, be at the Western Regional and companion all breed shows. They may not, but until the OP knows or the breeder makes an appearance on the forum, we won't know for sure.

And as an attorney, I also don't think it's wise to file a lawsuit as a knee jerk emotional reaction to not receiving a phone call back immediately and being blocked on facebook. It is a serious undertaking regardless of whether or not it is in small claims. And filing a complaint doesn't immediately do anything except for cost the plaintiff money in filing fees. Litigation does not provide instant gratification.


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

hey
going to call her right now and see if she answers.................no answer.


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

just checked my mail the breeder has sent me a letter stating her reasons and the her bank is issuing me a check for 800, i still do not understand why she couldn't have just talked to me on the phone and told me this and not burned bridges.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Sounds like the money issue is resolved. Not to trivialize, but lessons learned all the way around... For breeder and buyer. Some day the time will be right to get a pup. Puppies are a ton of work. I am lucky, I can bring them to work. But I always tell my clients that I don't love my own until they are one year of age. Don't love the house training....


----------



## knewcom3 (Jan 18, 2012)

ryan74701 said:


> just checked my mail the breeder has sent me a letter stating her reasons and the her bank is issuing me a check for 800, i still do not understand why she couldn't have just talked to me on the phone and told me this and not burned bridges.


What did she say? I would love to know as I cannot imagine taking someone's dog to "help" with the training process and then vanishing and not allow someone to contact me.


----------



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Sounds like the money issue is resolved. Not to trivialize, but lessons learned all the way around... For breeder and buyer. Some day the time will be right to get a pup. Puppies are a ton of work. I am lucky, I can bring them to work. But I always tell my clients that I don't love my own until they are one year of age. Don't love the house training....


Aww, come on. House training isn't a big deal. All I foster and train is puppies and I love the house training and all the other training that I get to do with puppies. I have the most awesome 5 month old great dane here now and training him has been so much fun!


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

She said i violated the contract by not taking her to the vet in the first 24 hours of ownership (i had it scheduled for that week) and not providing a fenced yard


----------



## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

ryan74701 said:


> She said i violated the contract by not taking her to the vet in the first 24 hours of ownership (i had it scheduled for that week) and not providing a fenced yard


Was that true? Did you sign a contract saying that you had a fenced-in yard when you didn't?


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

fostermom said:


> Aww, come on. House training isn't a big deal. All I foster and train is puppies and I love the house training and all the other training that I get to do with puppies. I have the most awesome 5 month old great dane here now and training him has been so much fun!


Heeeheee.... did you see my post on another thread where I gave somebody a rundown of Jacks' daily life for his first couple weeks? Busy. Tiring. Lots of standing out in the cold and waiting. Waiting. Urging for poop-hurry-up-poop. Telling baby Jacks to stop nomming on my nose or hair and go back to sleep. Wake up 3 hours later to do it all again... and working all day. :bowl:

I loved every minute of it, but it was a lot of work and I couldn't have done it if it weren't for my family taking care of him while I was at work.


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

"The BUYER agrees to provide a suitable fenced area for this puppy" i dont have a fenced yard but she could have meant fenced off area in my house for her to play, which i think i did


----------



## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

ryan74701 said:


> "The BUYER agrees to provide a suitable fenced area for this puppy" i dont have a fenced yard but she could have meant fenced off area in my house for her to play, which i think i did


Unlikely. A fenced-in area is universally understood to mean an outdoor area. Very few houses - if any - provide enough space indoors for a fully grown Golden Retriever to run and play and get proper exercise. You really thought that part of the contract meant a fenced-in kitchen?


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

didnt even read most of it, she just handed it to me and i skimmed it and signed it, my first dog dont forget


----------



## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

ryan74701 said:


> didnt even read most of it, she just handed it to me and i skimmed it and signed it, my first dog dont forget


Wow. 

Just wow.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Ryan... the fenced in yard would be a huge thing for a lot of breeders and rescues. There is at least one dream breeder that I'd love to go with who will NOT sell their puppies to anyone without a fenced in yard. 

I have no idea how they'd know since they are at least 6 hours away, but it would most definitely be a deal-breaker for them. 

It's possible that they already had other concerns - possibly the sense that the puppy was not working out with you, or the fact that you were working more hours than originally planned - and the lack of fencing when they arrived pushed them to the decision they made.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

fostermom said:


> I have the most awesome 5 month old great dane here now and training him has been so much fun!


Pictures please!!!!! Total Dane devotee, here...


----------



## ryan74701 (Dec 31, 2011)

so people who dont have a fenced off yard should never have a dog?





Sweet Girl said:


> Wow.
> 
> Just wow.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My experience is that requiring a fenced in yard is ridiculous. My first golden, given to me by my mentor, was only given to me without a fenced in yard because she required extensive knee surgery as a pup(and I was willing to pay it). She was trained to her boundaries and never left them. Laney, golden #2 had a breeder who understood boundary training. Golden# 3 's breeder required a fenced in yard, which I didn't realize ,and I never lied. In any case it all worked out. I am 1100 feet from a road and live in the midle of my in laws 68 acres. My experience as a vet is that if the dogs are used to a fence, when there is an opening, they bolt!!


----------



## knewcom3 (Jan 18, 2012)

ryan74701 said:


> so people who dont have a fenced off yard should never have a dog?


Excuse me Sweet Girl if I am wrong but I am pretty sure the Wow isn't about the fence more about the fact you signed a contract you never read.

Regardless of the fact this is your first dog, this is a LEGAL document. ANYTHING you sign your name to, you read....EVERY word. Therefore legally it is well within the breeder's rights to take the puppy back. You not only voided the legal document by not taking the vet, you lied about having a fence intentional or not.


----------



## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

About signing a contract and not reading every word, I am sure anyone who has bought a house has done this. I remember having to go to the closing for my house and I was suffering from vertigo and could barely focus. And there they sat with a stack of papers several inches high. We sat there and signed and signed and signed. Do you think we read every word? 
Really, who does? Not me.


----------



## knewcom3 (Jan 18, 2012)

lgnutah said:


> About signing a contract and not reading every word, I am sure anyone who has bought a house has done this. I remember having to go to the closing for my house and I was suffering from vertigo and could barely focus. And there they sat with a stack of papers several inches high. We sat there and signed and signed and signed. Do you think we read every word?
> Really, who does? Not me.


I genuinely read every word and even if you are someone who doesn't there is a big difference from a huge stack of papers and a puppy contract. I am not trying to be mean, it's just if they violated the contract they are in the wrong. I cannot imagine a puppy contract taking more than 20 minutes to read all the way.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Take your money and run. Live and learn. Personally I have a problem with breeders that think of their puppies as property....but at least she came clean and returned your money.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

knewcom3 said:


> I genuinely read every word and even if you are someone who doesn't there is a big difference from a huge stack of papers and a puppy contract. I am not trying to be mean, it's just if they violated the contract they are in the wrong. I cannot imagine a puppy contract taking more than 20 minutes to read all the way.


Don't forget she swiped the contract when she took the dog back....kinda strange....


----------



## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Don't forget she swiped the contract when she took the dog back....kinda strange....


Uh no - he stated that he gave the contract back by accident:


> yes i signed a contract but when he asked for the akc papers the contract was underneath it and i didnt realize it,


He'd had the contract for 4 days already - that gave him plenty of time to read it and be aware of what was in it.


----------



## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

lgnutah said:


> About signing a contract and not reading every word, I am sure anyone who has bought a house has done this. I remember having to go to the closing for my house and I was suffering from vertigo and could barely focus. And there they sat with a stack of papers several inches high. We sat there and signed and signed and signed. Do you think we read every word?
> Really, who does? Not me.


That was the ONLY time I read every word!


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Ryan,

I am sorry that this happened. It sounds like it just wasn't the time for you and Zoey to have that future together. 
To be fair it looks like things weren't done right on both ends. 

I hope that this stressful event helps you to learn and grow in a positive way so that in the future when the time is right for you that you can have a beautiful golden of your own. (don't hold on to the negativity use it as a step up the ladder of maturity)


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I would be scared for a puppy of my breeding if, after four days, the person called and was actively frustrated with normal puppy stuff and working 8-10 hour days leaving the puppy alone. I think the breeder has been responsible here to the puppy at least, and if the OP gets money back, then, as others have said, lesson learned.


----------



## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

ryan74701 said:


> so people who dont have a fenced off yard should never have a dog?


That's not at all what I said. For the record, I don't have a fenced-in yard. And I never would have signed a contract from my breeder if he had required one. (Nor would I have fenced off my kitchen and declared it a fenced-off area).

My response, as my quote of your previous message suggested, was to your having not read the contract. You signed a contract about a living creature you were taking into your home without reading it. I don't care if it was your first dog. You signed a contract you didn't read? About your dog? 

I think it's time to move on. You took the dog under false premises, telling the breeder you would have a fenced-in area when you didn't. You signed the contract requiring that, whether you read it or not. When they came to pick up the pup to take it for training, they clearly saw you didn't have a fence. You broke their contract. They have now returned the $800.


----------



## Swampchamp (Mar 3, 2012)

can't believe they are not responding.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

ragtym said:


> Uh no - he stated that he gave the contract back by accident:
> 
> 
> He'd had the contract for 4 days already - that gave him plenty of time to read it and be aware of what was in it.


That is true and he did have time to read it. He already admitted that he did but he chose not to. However I find it hard to believe the breeder didn't see the contract with the other paper. Which brings up a good point. Why would the breeder ask for the akc papers back if they were just going to help train the puppy? The whole thing is fishy to me. If the breeder was on the up and up they wouldn't be sneaky in the way they handled this. Perhaps they saw this thread and didn't want to be exposed. Who knows. In the end the op did receive his money back. Lesson learned.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I just cannot STAND that a negative/sneaky/shady intent by this breeder is being assumed based on the OP's rendition of the events. They realized based on the OP's conversation's with them that this puppy might not be in the most appropriate home, they drove 10 hours to pick up the puppy, they sent him his money back via online banking and somehow they are evil? They put the puppy's best interests as a priority...that makes them a WONDERFUL breeder in my eyes.


----------



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I just cannot STAND that a negative/sneaky/shady intent by this breeder is being assumed based on the OP's rendition of the events. They realized based on the OP's conversation's with them that this puppy might not be in the most appropriate home, they drove 10 hours to pick up the puppy, they sent him his money back via online banking and somehow they are evil? They put the puppy's best interests as a priority...that makes them a WONDERFUL breeder in my eyes.


I was thinking the same way from the very beginning.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Ryan, it's time to take this as one of life's learning experiences and move on. 

You didn't live up to your end of the agreement and it's as simple as that. You then provided an opportunity for them to legally recover the puppy along with all of the supporting documentation. So, they took advantage of that opportunity when it presented itself. They have returned your money. It's time to let it go.


----------



## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I just cannot STAND that a negative/sneaky/shady intent by this breeder is being assumed based on the OP's rendition of the events. They realized based on the OP's conversation's with them that this puppy might not be in the most appropriate home, they drove 10 hours to pick up the puppy, they sent him his money back via online banking and somehow they are evil? They put the puppy's best interests as a priority...that makes them a WONDERFUL breeder in my eyes.


+1

I think the full story has come out through the thread. You have to read the whole thing to see that - not just the very first post.


----------



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Sweet Girl said:


> +1
> 
> I think the full story has come out through the thread. You have to read the whole thing to see that - not just the very first post.


That seems to be a pattern here. An OP posts a story about how they have been wronged and a bunch of people take the post at face value and take the OP's side without reading anything between the lines. Lots of times they start going after anyone who might question the OP's story. And then, after a dozen or more pages, the whole story comes out...


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

No the whole story didn't come out nor will we ever know it. There is always 3 sides to a story. In this case it would be the op's, the breeders and the truth. And since people pointed out how assumptions are wrong we have only the op's story to go on. And from the op's posts it is clear that something shady and sneaky took place. Unless I'm mistaken nobody is calling the breeder "evil".


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> No the whole story didn't come out nor will we ever know it. There is always 3 sides to a story. In this case it would be the op's, the breeders and the truth. And since people pointed out how assumptions are wrong we have only the op's story to go on. And from the op's posts it is clear that something shady and sneaky took place. Unless I'm mistaken nobody is calling the breeder "evil".


You can't in one sentence say that we don't know the whole story and in the next say that it's "clear that something shady and sneaky took place." Nothing is clear, that's why we don't know why the breeder hadn't called him back and making negative assumptions doesn't help anyone, including the OP.

Whatever, he got his money back, he's happy and the puppy will go to a more appropriate home.


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I am very surprised the breeder did not go over the contract at the signing. Paragraph by paragraph - I guess lesson learned.

Also, unfortunately breeder contracts are rarely enforceable. The breeder did - although kind of sneaky - what she thought she had to do to protect her puppy.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> You can't in one sentence say that we don't know the whole story and in the next say that it's "clear that something shady and sneaky took place." Nothing is clear, that's why we don't know why the breeder hadn't called him back and making negative assumptions doesn't help anyone, including the OP.
> 
> Whatever, he got his money back, he's happy and the puppy will go to a more appropriate home.


LOL! Sure I can. Everything about the op's story stinks of sneak! And that is all I can go on. I would never assume the op a "liar" nor the breeder "evil".


----------



## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I just cannot STAND that a negative/sneaky/shady intent by this breeder is being assumed based on the OP's rendition of the events. They realized based on the OP's conversation's with them that this puppy might not be in the most appropriate home, they drove 10 hours to pick up the puppy, they sent him his money back via online banking and somehow they are evil? They put the puppy's best interests as a priority...that makes them a WONDERFUL breeder in my eyes.


Perhaps the breeder reads this forum? Anyone thought of that? This is probably why they didn't want to talk to the OP. 

If I was a breeder, honest & ethical, and read what was going on here I sure wouldn't be picking up the phone either, I'd be with my lawyer and having the proper letter drawn up and mailing to the buyer.


----------



## Aislinn (Nov 13, 2010)

Contracts are not easy to write and cover all you would like them to. I go over my contracts paragraph by paragraph, point by point. I actually have written in it that if the buyer does not follow the contract, I have permission from the buyer to reclaim my dog at no cost to me. No one should ever purchase a dog, or anything, without reading the contract all the way through. That said, personally, I think the breeder talked about a fenced in yard as a necessity. It's usually one of the first things that are discussed when you get to the point of considering a buyer for a puppy.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> LOL! Sure I can. Everything about the op's story stinks of sneak! And that is all I can go on. I would never assume the op a "liar" nor the breeder "evil".


Good grief, you really just don't get it do you? God forbid a breeder should try to find the best homes for their puppies and when one is not working out, take the steps to remedy the situation. This isn't a soap opera where someone has to always be the villain. This is a breeder doing what is right for the puppy he/she brought into the world. I think this thread has run it's course. :wavey:


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> That is true and he did have time to read it. He already admitted that he did but he chose not to. However I find it hard to believe the breeder didn't see the contract with the other paper. Which brings up a good point. Why would the breeder ask for the akc papers back if they were just going to help train the puppy? The whole thing is fishy to me. If the breeder was on the up and up they wouldn't be sneaky in the way they handled this. Perhaps they saw this thread and didn't want to be exposed. Who knows. In the end the op did receive his money back. Lesson learned.


I don't see anything sneaky about openly asking for the AKC papers. Those are very important to have stay with the puppy. It was pretty clear a mistake had been made in placing the pup, and the AKC papers needed to come back. Otherwise, the OP would have needed to mail them back. Paperwork is important. If they return the OP's money, then I think the right things have happened. I have to give the breeder the benefit of the doubt that they needed to figure out what to do and discuss.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Good grief, you really just don't get it do you? God forbid a breeder should try to find the best homes for their puppies and when one is not working out, take the steps to remedy the situation...


If I was a breeder and had put time, effort, and most of all love into those precious babies I brought into the world, I would do _whatever_ I had to to get a puppy back that I felt was in a situation detrimental to it's well being. And I do mean whatever. 

I'm sure this breeder loved and did the best she could for those puppies for the first 8 weeks of their lives. Then to have a new owner call after only 4 days to say that they're feeling "frustrated" and on top of that, they're leaving that puppy alone for _11 hours a day_, (11!!! Remember, it's a baby!), I'd get that puppy back ASAP, too. 

So, yeah, I would do and say whatever it took. This is a living creature, not a car or something. That puppy had no voice of her own... Go back and look at her pictures and look into her eyes. Would you have risked not getting her back? I don't think so...


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Good grief, you really just don't get it do you? God forbid a breeder should try to find the best homes for their puppies and when one is not working out, take the steps to remedy the situation. This isn't a soap opera where someone has to always be the villain. This is a breeder doing what is right for the puppy he/she brought into the world. I think this thread has run it's course. :wavey:


Listen I have nothing against this breeder or any other breeder. I was just commenting on what was presented in front of me. Afterall you were the one that said we should not "assume". Not sure why you are taking this so personal.



Ljilly28 said:


> I don't see anything sneaky about openly asking for the AKC papers. Those are very important to have stay with the puppy. It was pretty clear a mistake had been made in placing the pup, and the AKC papers needed to come back. Otherwise, the OP would have needed to mail them back. Paperwork is important. If they return the OP's money, then I think the right things have happened. I have to give the breeder the benefit of the doubt that they needed to figure out what to do and discuss.


No I don't think asking for the papers was sneaky either. I was just wondering why she needed them when she said she was just going to train the puppy for the op.I think that was a red flag right there. But I agree with you in stating she needed to figure out what to do and discuss. I kinda have a feeling she knew before she left her house that the puppy was not coming back. JMHO. If everything was in the contract and she had a legal right to take the puppy back......why not just be upfront?


----------



## jacksonjack (Dec 14, 2011)

I've been following this thread and all I can say is wow. Tons of lessons to be learned by the buyer:
1) Dog breeders take this seriously. 
2) Not being forthright and answering the breeders questions honestly will come back and bite you.
3) Contracts are written for a reason, if you are going to sign one you ought to read it and understand it. 

As far as the breeder being underhanded in getting thier dogs back..... Do Repo men knock on the front door and ask for the keys to the car??? They make sure they get the car and get out of there. Is it possible the breeder did intend to take the dog and do some training but when he saw the situation he realized he just needed to make sure he got the dog ? He probably figured he didn't want a confrontation and that he would make sure things would be cleared up when the dog was safe ???

The breeder was fair, he followed the contract and gave the buyer his money back.


----------



## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Take your money and run. Live and learn. Personally I have a problem with breeders that think of their puppies as property....but at least she came clean and returned your money.



I have a problem with breeders who think of their puppies as property too. In my experience, such breeders do not bother having contracts. They don't bother to follow up with the puppies. They certainly don't bother driving 10 hours to get a pup who has been put in a home that has turned out to be a poor match for her needs. This breeder did what she had to do, she returned the OP's money and though the claim that this is about a fenced-in backyard may seem like a cop out to some... it was a legitimate claim of breech of contract, even if it's not the primary concern the breeder had. This breeder showed deep concern for the puppy she produced and did right by her. That's the type of breeder I would work with any day of the week.

Let's remember a couple things here:
- The OP was frustrated enough by this puppy after 4 days to give it back to the breeder for weeks or months for "training." That screams "not ready for a puppy." A puppy is all about training and bonding as they grow -- and the OP was willing to give that all up after only 4 days.
- This 8 week old puppy was spending 11+ hours home alone. You'll never hear me say that someone can't hold a full time job and raise a puppy. It's certainly possible. But 11 hours is more than your average work day... and the OP stated he had no one helping him.
- The OP just quoted the contract. So either it's available online (and therefore he could easily have read through it prior to going to pick up his puppy) or he read and was fully aware of the provision for a fenced in yard and therefore chose to be dishonest with the breeder on this point.

I don't think the OP is a bad guy... I think he got in over his head. But the breeder's concerns were legitimate and they acted in the best interest of the puppy. I'm curious, what about that says "product" to you?

Julie, Jersey and Oz


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"I don't think the OP is a bad guy... I think he got in over his head. But the breeder's concerns were legitimate and they acted in the best interest of the puppy"

I do think that the breeder should have vetted the OP better before the pup was turned over to the OP. This is why I say I hope both learned a lesson from this and can move on and grow. And I agree with Jill that the breeder's concerns should be for the puppy and to act in the puppy's best interest at all times.


----------



## jacksonjack (Dec 14, 2011)

I don't think OP is a bad guy either, but bad things happen to both good and bad people. We learn from our mistakes.....We normally get out of something what we put into it. It seems to me that OP took a very lax approuch to getting his pup. He appearently did not do the reseach of what it takes to take care of a puppy, did not bother to read the contract, and seemed to think that the breeders requirements of receiving a puppy from them were unimportant. Well......Guess what ???
I guess they were.
As far as somebodies opinion of breeders thinking of the dog as thier property.....
It really doesn't matter what they think  The breeder owns the puppy, the breeder writes the contract in a way that they believe will ensure that the puppy will recieve good care from its new owner, If the buyer doesn't like the terms they don't have to get the pup from that breeder.
When you buy a car, do you really fully own it until you have completed the terms of the contract with the bank ??? Its not much different here. Breeders ask that buyers do certain things to hopefully garrentee the happiness of the puppy. 
My experience is that most people don't put things in contracts because they want to, they put them in because they have learned that they need to. We all applaud the breeders that do the right thing, run tests, provide a quality environment when raising the pups, this is just an extension of that.
I pick up my new Golden this weekend. I have a 2 day ride back from the breeders. The contract states that I have to take the pup to my vet within 24 hours of pick-up. Its obvious that thats impossible. A simple email to the breeder stating that I will have the pup to my vet 4 days after I pick him up and her ok solved that problem.
The contract says that I have an obligation to have my dog nuetered by 18 months and that I am buying the dog as a pet and cannot use it for breeding is also in there. If I don't follow thru with those requirements I can expect problems from the breeder.
Some breeders put years of time and effort to develop thier line of dogs. They see thier puppies as an extension of themselves. 
As far as due diligence....It only goes so far. You can ask all the right questions but the other party has to be honest in thier responses. This buyers response to the fenced area was either dishonest or extremely uneducated. Also He stated that his schedule changed right before he got the pup. I would bet one of the questions the breeder asked was what is the longest amount of time the pup will be left alone during the day...... If she would have heard that he didn't have a fenced yard and was going to leave the dog alone for 11 hours a day he would have never gotten a dog in the first place.
I'm willing to bet if the buyer would have contacted her before he got the pup she migt have worked out a deal that she would have returned all of his money, or agreed to hold his deposit for a later litter when he was in a better position to have a puppy.
This was a big loser for the breeder. Look at the time, effort, and finances they lost because of this. A 10 hour drive to and back is a lot of money if you charge for gas and the time that it takes. Figure if the guy values his time at 15 dollars an hour hes out 300 dollars. if he drove a total of a 1000 miles and gets 20 miles to the gallon at 3.50 a gallon of gas..... hes got 175 dollars in gas. It took the breeder 475 bucks worth of time and gas to pick that pup up from a buyer that was not forthright from the get go. 
I have to think the breeder was more than fair for not charging for that. 
Did the buyer think of all this stuff before he called the breeder "Shady "


----------



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I just cannot STAND that a negative/sneaky/shady intent by this breeder is being assumed based on the OP's rendition of the events. They realized based on the OP's conversation's with them that this puppy might not be in the most appropriate home, they drove 10 hours to pick up the puppy, they sent him his money back via online banking and somehow they are evil? They put the puppy's best interests as a priority...that makes them a WONDERFUL breeder in my eyes.


That is the most logical explanation, and IMO the breeder did the right thing for the puppy. I do believe the breeder did not screen the buyer well enough in the first place. Questions like what is your work schedule and do you have a fenced yard should have only been the tip of iceberg of the conversation before sending a puppy home with a new owner.

OP, take the money out of the equation. How do you feel about not having the puppy?

Or, I'm beginning to think our collective chains are being yanked.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

jacksonjack said:


> I've been following this thread and all I can say is wow. Tons of lessons to be learned by the buyer:
> 1) Dog breeders take this seriously.
> 2) Not being forthright and answering the breeders questions honestly will come back and bite you.
> 3) Contracts are written for a reason, if you are going to sign one you ought to read it and understand it.
> ...


LOL! The repo man comes because of non payment....apples and oranges.
The op paid in full. Nobody here really knows what was in the contract except what the op posted. "A fenced in area". And the op posted a picture of a very nice set up for the puppy.




jacksonjack said:


> I don't think OP is a bad guy either, but bad things happen to both good and bad people. We learn from our mistakes.....We normally get out of something what we put into it. It seems to me that OP took a very lax approuch to getting his pup. He appearently did not do the reseach of what it takes to take care of a puppy, did not bother to read the contract, and seemed to think that the breeders requirements of receiving a puppy from them were unimportant. Well......Guess what ???
> I guess they were.
> *As far as somebodies opinion of breeders thinking of the dog as thier property.....*
> It *really doesn't matter what they think * The breeder owns the puppy, the breeder writes the contract in a way that they believe will ensure that the puppy will recieve good care from its new owner, If the buyer doesn't like the terms they don't have to get the pup from that breeder.


It does matter. In the state of Calif. dogs are now considered family members in a divorce settlement. Not property. Times are changing.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> And the op posted a picture of a very nice set up for the puppy.


I agree...for a few hours. But not for 11+.


----------



## jacksonjack (Dec 14, 2011)

I wouldn't say that its apples and oranges. 
Wether you get a car and borrow the money from the bank or you get a puppy and agree to specific terms in both cases there is a contract and an agreement is met by both parties that if one does not honor the agreement the other has the right to take possession of whatever the contract was over. My point was when your faced with having to get back whatever it was you are after, you do so in a way that puts you in the best position to avoid conflict or damages to whatever you are trying to get back.

This isn't a divorce. We are not talking about a family pet. This is a puppy that was in the buyers possession for 4 day, after he mislead the breader to obtain, and kept in a less than healthy if not an abusive environment.


----------



## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Personally, I feel sorry for the OP. Clearly they made a mistake in thinking they could handle a puppy, and while they have their money, I'm sure they still feel pretty rotten about the whole situation.

I think it's great that a breeder cares so much about one puppy of his/hers to drive 10 hours and pick said puppy up. However, I think it is morally unethical to take the puppy under false pretenses and then surprise the former owner of the puppy with a Dear John letter and their money back. What would have been so hard about the breeder sitting the OP down and saying, "I see you have no fenced yard. Unfortunately, my contract dictates my puppy owners should have fenced in yards. Perhaps this is not the best time for you to have a puppy, as you seem frustrated and work long hours. I think it would be better for me to take the puppy back and return you your money."

Whatever happened to honesty? Lying to avoid a small confrontation with someone who probably was looking for a way out of owning a puppy is just silly and small.

I hope both parties in this situation learned their respective lessons. To the OP: hopefully someday soon when you are more settled in you can try a puppy again. But grown dogs are also wonderful choices for people who have more busy lifestyles. Good luck!


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

We really don't know what was discussed between the breeder and the OP. We basically only have one side of the story. 

Let's suppose the breeder did approach the OP about giving the puppy back and the OP refused. What would you have done as the breeder? Just let it go or offer the OP a "compromise" to at least get the puppy in back your hands? I would have done just that. Or, the breeder honestly intended to take the puppy to help train it, but when they got to the OP's home noticed that there was no enclosed area, learned how long the puppy was alone and made a decision then. There are _so many_ scenarios that could have transpired that the best we can do is speculate.

The puppy is in a better place and that, to me, is the bottom line.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

jacksonjack said:


> I wouldn't say that its apples and oranges.
> Wether you get a car and borrow the money from the bank or you get a puppy and agree to specific terms in both cases there is a contract and an agreement is met by both parties that if one does not honor the agreement the other has the right to take possession of whatever the contract was over. My point was when your faced with having to get back whatever it was you are after, you do so in a way that puts you in the best position to avoid conflict or damages to whatever you are trying to get back.
> 
> *This isn't a divorce. We are not talking about a family pet. This is a puppy that was in the buyers possession for 4 day,* after he mislead the breader to obtain, and kept in a less than healthy if not an abusive environment.


Which he paid in full for therefore now it is a member of his family. Yes it is apples to oranges because you are talking about borrowed money. If you bought that car for cash they can't repo it 
He showed the picture where the puppy was set up. Nothing unhealthy about it. If you are talking about how many hours the op worked....that also could have been dealt with by suggesting a dog walker/daycare etc. The op was frustrated and called the breeder for help/suggestions.....and this is what he gets


----------



## Phoebe's mom (Jan 17, 2012)

Our westie breeder's contract was crazy. He read it over with us. If we didn't have a fenced in yard, couldn't leave the dog tied up, couldn't leave it unsupervised, never allowed off leash, microchip stayed in her name, basically it's still her dog we just take care of it. This is without breeding rights or going back to the breeder. Also if the breeder went to our house and saw the dog tied up or anything she didn't like she had permission from the buyer to take the dog back. 
These puppies are most breeders kids. It's there job to make sure they go to suitable homes. Personally our westie breeder (Penny-Belle Scorer) is a bit over the top. But she is always there for advice, food changes. Everything to ensure the best health for the westies.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Phoebe's mom said:


> Our westie breeder's contract was crazy. He read it over with us. If we didn't have a fenced in yard, couldn't leave the dog tied up, couldn't leave it unsupervised, never allowed off leash, microchip stayed in her name, basically it's still her dog we just take care of it. This is without breeding rights or going back to the breeder. Also if the breeder went to our house and saw the dog tied up or anything she didn't like she had permission from the buyer to take the dog back.
> These puppies are most breeders kids. It's there job to make sure they go to suitable homes. Personally our westie breeder (Penny-Belle Scorer) is a bit over the top. But she is always there for advice, food changes. Everything to ensure the best health for the westies.


Wow! Sounds more like an open adoption. Where the mom continues to stay in their lives.


----------



## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Which he paid in full for therefore now it is a member of his family. Yes it is apples to oranges because you are talking about borrowed money. If you bought that car for cash they can't repo it
> He showed the picture where the puppy was set up. Nothing unhealthy about it. If you are talking about how many hours the op worked....that also could have been dealt with by suggesting a dog walker/daycare etc. The op was frustrated and called the breeder for help/suggestions.....and this is what he gets


I've yet to see anywhere in this thread where the OP seemed concerned about getting the dog back. All I saw was him asking for his money, which he has received. :gotme: Sounds like the end of the story to me.


----------



## Phoebe's mom (Jan 17, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Wow! Sounds more like an open adoption. Where the mom continues to stay in their lives.


We used to go get Abby and Brodie groomed with her. That was before I was a groomer. She had to inspect my grooming before I was allowed to do it on the dogs. Luckily i passed. 
The pups were quite pricey. 1400 and 1800 so she isnt messing around. Luckily our dogs have never been lost too much. Longest time was at the cottage and one of our neighbors took Abby in for breakfast!!!! Eventually letting her out at 11am when she came running to out voices. 
Even though we signed the contract she does know we let the dogs run free in parks and up north. We send her pictures and she says "the kids" look like they are having a lot of fun.


----------



## bioteach (Nov 13, 2010)

When my husband and I bought our first house we both had demanding jobs, long commutes, and the harsh New England weather would have meant indoor confinement in our tiny "starter" home. We hated to wait, but we settled for a caged bird instead. 

When we moved to AZ and had a large home, large yard, and worked short hours close by. We were glad that we waited and when we bought Sagebrush we became GR lovers forever.

It's been 25 years and three goldens later. Our breeder was extremely careful to check on our schedules, who we used as a vet, what experiences we had with our previous goldens, etc. She even looked up our address and saw the google earth aerial view of our house (with the fenced in acre, a grassy play area, and lots of trees). 

Our contract clearly states that if for any reason we cannot take proper care of Nugget (illness, job change, etc.) she gets him back or approves of his new owners. 
I really respect her and believe that all of her pups have gone to ideal "forever" homes. 

It took a lot of patience on our part to realize that a puppy isn't a good match for every situation, but we did the right thing. It was totally worth the wait.


----------



## jacksonjack (Dec 14, 2011)

A contract is more than about money. It is an agreement. An agreement that both parties sign and agree to follow. With a car you agree to make your payments, keep the car in good repair, and keep insurance on it. Just because a puppy gets gas instead of having gas put in it doesn't change the concept of a contract. 

I haven't seen his contract but I know what mine says. As a matter of fact my contract states that my breeder is Co-owner until the terms of the contract are met. Since my pup was bought as a pet and not for breeding or show I am not allowed to breed him and get the pup neutered by 18 months. Once the terms are fullfilled the breeder relinquishes all rights. 

Maybe the puppy should get a lawyer. Since we have made puppies babies the breeder and the purchaser both should be placed in jail for practicing slavery .


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I dont' care if it was the first of 80th dog... when you sign a contract you READ IT.... while some may say a fenced yard is ridiculous or whatever the fact is that it was in the contract... it drives me nuts when people sign the darned contract and don't follow it... if you think it is unreasonable find another breeder. I do not think having a fenced yard is unreasonable if a person can have one. I get very nervous when a person lives in a rural area (where i live is rural) and doesn't have a fenced yard... I can visualize the door opening and out goes the dog to roam the neighborhood. I have made exceptions to this rule for people who live in the city (New York City) where a fence is impossible etc. but to me having a fenced yard is very important... I am happy to help people find other breeders who match their needs and expectations better but if you sign my contract I expect you to follow it. 

I honestly wonder how much the breeder found out after the fact. I wonder if the breeder was told the hours this person works and I don't buy that the OP thought a fenced area meant a crate in the house. 

People who work can certainly have dogs but they have to make arrangements for the pup and not just put him/her in a crate all day... my puppies go to daycare on days I am not home all day OR they can adopt older dogs and have a dog walker come in.... 

the more I read of this the more I wonder .... 

but honestly I don't much care about anything else but the not reading and abiding by the contract....I would LOVE to have the breeders side of this.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Phoebe's mom said:


> Our westie breeder's contract was crazy. He read it over with us. If we didn't have a fenced in yard, couldn't leave the dog tied up, couldn't leave it unsupervised, never allowed off leash, microchip stayed in her name, basically it's still her dog we just take care of it. This is without breeding rights or going back to the breeder. Also if the breeder went to our house and saw the dog tied up or anything she didn't like she had permission from the buyer to take the dog back.
> These puppies are most breeders kids. It's there job to make sure they go to suitable homes. Personally our westie breeder (Penny-Belle Scorer) is a bit over the top. But she is always there for advice, food changes. Everything to ensure the best health for the westies.


that sounds alot like my contract and microchip procedure, except for the unsupervised (in the fenced in yard or house) and off leash part (must be supervised) . 

I have a whole list of other things that I have in my contract regarding food and general care. 

I brought those puppies into the world. I look at them and see my own dogs, and my responsibility is to them. I have plenty of people on my waiting list who view their dogs in the same way that I do... and like I said and have said a million times before if someone doesn't want to abide by what I have asked them to do then they should find another breeder and I will help them do that.


----------



## Phoebe's mom (Jan 17, 2012)

Shalva said:


> that sounds alot like my contract and microchip procedure, except for the unsupervised (in the fenced in yard or house) and off leash part (must be supervised) .
> 
> I have a whole list of other things that I have in my contract regarding food and general care.
> 
> I brought those puppies into the world. I look at them and see my own dogs, and my responsibility is to them. I have plenty of people on my waiting list who view their dogs in the same way that I do... and like I said and have said a million times before if someone doesn't want to abide by what I have asked them to do then they should find another breeder and I will help them do that.


We also have to feed the westies Taste of the Wild as recommended. And when we went to pick Abby up when she was 9 weeks after she went over the contract she showed us how to groom the pads and paws and ears. We also had to call once a month for the first year.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Jersey's Mom said:


> I've yet to see anywhere in this thread where the OP seemed concerned about getting the dog back. All I saw was him asking for his money, which he has received. :gotme: Sounds like the end of the story to me.


End of story about the op's ordeal yes. However when someone posts about your comments than people have the right to defend their posts or explain the reasoning behind them  Now it is a discussion about breeders contracts which is interesting to me.



jacksonjack said:


> A contract is more than about money. It is an agreement. An agreement that both parties sign and agree to follow. With a car you agree to make your payments, keep the car in good repair, and keep insurance on it. Just because a puppy gets gas instead of having gas put in it doesn't change the concept of a contract.
> 
> I haven't seen his contract but I know what mine says. As a matter of fact my contract states that my breeder is Co-owner until the terms of the contract are met. Since my pup was bought as a pet and not for breeding or show I am not allowed to breed him and get the pup neutered by 18 months. Once the terms are fullfilled the breeder relinquishes all rights.
> 
> Maybe the puppy should get a lawyer. Since we have made puppies babies the breeder and the purchaser both should be placed in jail for practicing slavery .


I have never seen a car purchase contract that states I need to keep the car in good repair. Have you? Insurance comes into play because the finance company "owns" it until it is paid in full. The op's puppy was paid in full. You are correct, none of us know what the contract says.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Phoebe's mom said:


> We also have to feed the westies Taste of the Wild as recommended. And when we went to pick Abby up when she was 9 weeks after she went over the contract she showed us how to groom the pads and paws and ears. *We also had to call once a month for the first year.*


Are you serious? These contracts are very interesting to say the least.


----------



## potentiallygolden (Dec 21, 2011)

To piggyback on the question of what should a breeder be able to put in their contract, or what sort of rigid behavior should a breeder be able to require from a purchaser...the economist in me would say that a financial transaction ought to end at point of purchase (save for guarantees offered by the breeder); however, buying a dog isn't just a financial transaction. People come on this forum all the time to get feedback on what kind of breeder they should look for, and I think that the central themes that I've seen over and over again on this forum is that the breeder should care more about the breed (and animals) than they do about the monetary transaction.

So, I suppose we arrive at a dichotomy: should a pet ownership transaction be more of a financial transaction, or should it be more of a transaction that, at its core, is concerned about the welfare of the animal?

I personally see it from both sides, but find myself coming down more on the breeder's side (although that certainly is easy to say when something like this isn't happening to you - I would be pretty hostile if a breeder decided they were going to revoke a contract and take back my dog without my consent or request, regardless of circumstances).

But it really is a double edged sword if you're going to say that your concern really is for the animals - it's one thing to say it, but it's quite another to live it (ie revoking a contract with a paying customer).

I suppose there's lots of details about being a breeder that I know nothing about (I'm really just a know-it-all computer programmer), but a reputable breeder who truly cares for the breed and for the safety and wellbeing of his or her puppies constantly has to deal with buyers who don't necessarily care about the breed, and those who are under educated about what it means to be a responsible pet owner.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

It doesn't really matter whether or not people think things "should" be in a contract. A breeder has no obligation to sell someone a puppy, and if a potential puppy buyer doesn't like the contract they are free to look elsewhere. Within legal limits (of course) two people can pretty much agree to anything they want.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> It doesn't really matter whether or not people think things "should" be in a contract. A breeder has no obligation to sell someone a puppy, and if a potential puppy buyer doesn't like the contract they are free to look elsewhere. Within legal limits (of course) two people can pretty much agree to anything they want.


EXACTLY!!! if you (generic you) don't like it ... go to another breeder.... 

AND 

A puppy is NOT A CAR... a car is an inanimate object... a puppy is a living creature and I as the owner, breeder, caregiver of that living creature have the right to say where it goes and what I expect from the person who is going to be the next caregiver of that puppy 

I honestly don't care what YOU (generic you) think should or shouldn't be in my contract or what I should or shouldn't require... 

IF YOU (generic) DON'T LIKE IT FIND ANOTHER BREEDER..... VERY SIMPLE! if you want a breeder that doesn't care... go to "pick a pet" or a scumbag breeder who only breeds for money.... they don't care. 
reputable breeders do care and while we all have different comfort levels and things that we feel are important... the purchase doesn't end when the money is paid. If that is what you want... then the chances of finding that with a reputable breeder are almost nil.


----------



## Phoebe's mom (Jan 17, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Are you serious? These contracts are very interesting to say the least.


Very serious. I'm at my parents house now, I will look over the contract and check. It might have been once every 3 months. But we had so many questions that it ended up being more then that.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

My contract which I am happy to post and share is about 6 pages long and I sit at the table with my puppy person and they have to initial each individual provision and we discuss the provisions on an individual basis.... they get a copy of that contract at the first meeting so they have plenty of time to read it... 

it covers housing 
transportation 
food
health care 
right of first refusal 
etc etc etc


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Shalva said:


> I honestly don't care what YOU (generic you) think should or shouldn't be in my contract or what I should or shouldn't require...
> 
> *IF YOU (generic) DON'T LIKE IT FIND ANOTHER BREEDER..... VERY SIMPLE! *if you want a breeder that doesn't care... go to "pick a pet" or a scumbag breeder who only breeds for money.... they don't care.
> reputable breeders do care and while we all have different comfort levels and things that we feel are important... the purchase doesn't end when the money is paid. If that is what you want... then the chances of finding that with a reputable breeder are almost nil.


I agree! And people have the freedom to do just that. And when one does that they are told their breeder is a scumbag and doesn't care Really? I take it that this is a very touchy subject lol!


----------



## momof2boys and one dog (Jan 20, 2012)

As someone who is in no way an expert (this is my first puppy) or a breeder I have to say that I would appreciate and seek out a breeder who cares enough to write up an extensive contract, someone who has taken the time to sit and write out things that are important to them and the well being of the puppy, someone who is willing to let me call them when I need to or have questions, someone who doesnt forget all about that puppy when they leave their care RATHER than a breeder who could care less who gets the puppy and what you do with him or her after they leave. There is such a word as 'NO" and if someone doesnt want to agree then thats all they have to say, not so hard is it?


----------



## oakleysmommy (Feb 20, 2011)

kwhit said:


> Pictures please!!!!! Total Dane devotee, here...


I just got a Great Dane 3 weeks ago..Fawn...Amazing amazing breed!


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

You can't have it both ways..... 

either you want a responsible breeder who is breeding for the love of the breed and does all the necessary clearances and cares about the mother and the puppies like they were their own and is doing it responsibly and not for the money .... well that comes with a contract and a breeder who cares about what happens to their puppies in the future 

or you have a breeder that treats the dogs and puppies like a business.... who only is breeding for the money and treats the animals like a commodity and they are a business product... they sell their dogs to anyone who can pay the price and when you walk out after paying then you have your dog. They don't care about the dogs or puppies only in how much they can earn .... and any added expenditure takes away from the bottom line.... don't expect proper socialization, don't expect a puppy that has the same advantages as a responsible breeder will provide...

and Yes I do consider anyone who breeds simply for money a scumbag breeder... some are better scumbags than others but these are the breeders whose dogs end up in rescue or at the shelter because they don't screen their families.... these are the dogs who don't have clearances or have other health issues... because corners are cut.... 

you can't have it both ways....and if it hurts someones feelings to hear that their breeder is breeding for hte wrong reasons and is irresponsible well thats the way it is... but this is the reason that irresponsible breeders stay in business.... this is the reason that goldens have so many issues.... because even golden lovers will defend those practices because they want purchasing a puppy to be the same as buying a lawn mower.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

oakleysmommy said:


> I just got a Great Dane 3 weeks ago..Fawn...Amazing amazing breed!


They're a wonderful breed. But...they're definitely one breed that you _have_ to be _extremely_ careful what breeder you buy from. They may seem like a sturdy breed but are _incredibly fragile_. I hope you were given correct explicit instructions of food, vaccines, exercise, etc. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me. I had Danes for almost 30 years and am very well versed in their care.


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Just off-topic a little - I met an owner and her beautiful golden last year, one of the few show lines I have seen since I moved to KC. The dog was beautiful, healthy, obviously taken care of and well loved - about 3 years old. I asked where she got the dog from, and her answer was "I cannot tell you. I had a wonderful relationship with my breeder, but she got too involved with my personal life. My husband and I separated, so she wanted my dog back, because both my husband and I were on the contract." 

Just some food for thought and discussion. If my husband and I were to separate, I would not want my breeder or the rescue group we got our now adult dogs from to take them back.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Shalva said:


> you can't have it both ways....and if it hurts someones feelings to hear that their breeder is breeding for hte wrong reasons and is irresponsible well thats the way it is... but this is the reason that irresponsible breeders stay in business.... this is the reason that goldens have so many issues.... because even golden lovers will defend those practices because they want purchasing a puppy to be the same as buying a lawn mower.


I do have to wonder if such stringent breeder rules _are _the cause of irresponsible breeders. The irresponsible breeders can easily take advantage of this. However there *are* responsible and caring breeders that have all the clearances and what not that don't take their contracts to extremes. I have to be honest here, some of the things I am hearing is a big turn off to me.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I do have to wonder if such stringent breeder rules _are _the cause of irresponsible breeders. The irresponsible breeders can easily take advantage of this. However there *are* responsible and caring breeders that have all the clearances and what not that don't take their contracts to extremes. I have to be honest here, some of the things I am hearing is a big turn off to me.


and that is your choice... to not go to a breeder with an extensive contract... and thats fine cause I for one wouldn't be suspicious as to why you would be so adverse to the provisions of the contract anyway and probably wouldn't sell you a puppy so the feeling would be mutual.... and that is just the point 

if you don't like the contract find another breeder... but don't sign something that you don't intend on following.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

cubbysan said:


> Just off-topic a little - I met an owner and her beautiful golden last year, one of the few show lines I have seen since I moved to KC. The dog was beautiful, healthy, obviously taken care of and well loved - about 3 years old. I asked where she got the dog from, and her answer was "I cannot tell you. I had a wonderful relationship with my breeder, but she got too involved with my personal life. My husband and I separated, so she wanted my dog back, because both my husband and I were on the contract."
> 
> Just some food for thought and discussion. If my husband and I were to separate, I would not want my breeder or the rescue group we got our now adult dogs from to take them back.


This is just too over the top for me. No breeder is going to dictate what I do with *my* dog in the event of separation.


----------



## oakleysmommy (Feb 20, 2011)

kwhit said:


> They're a wonderful breed. But...they're definitely one breed that you _have_ to be _extremely_ careful what breeder you buy from. They may seem like a sturdy breed but are _incredibly fragile_. I hope you were given correct explicit instructions of food, vaccines, exercise, etc. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me. I had Danes for almost 30 years and am very well versed in their care.


will send you a pm now


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Shalva said:


> and that is your choice... to not go to a breeder with an extensive contract... and thats fine cause I for one wouldn't be suspicious as to why you would be so adverse to the provisions of the contract anyway and probably wouldn't sell you a puppy so the feeling would be mutual.... and that is just the point
> 
> if you don't like the contract find another breeder... but don't sign something that you don't intend on following.


I already agreed we have the freedom to chose.

But you made it sound like if someone didn't agree to your 6 page contract they can go to an irresponsible breeder if they like........which was kind insulting IMHO. I'm sure you are a wonderful breeder, please don't take this personal.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I have to be honest here, some of the things I am hearing is a big turn off to me.


And that's the beauty of it. You'll never have the issue of dealing with a strict contract because you will _choose_ to avoid them. Just as breeders _choose _what to have in their contracts and who to sell to. 

The breeder that I will purchase my next Dane from requires that the new owners never leave the puppy for over 4 hours at a time. If it's a couple that buy from her, they have to work different shifts. She requires a letter from your vet stating their experience with bloat and if they have the ability to perform pexys. She then follows up with the vet with a phone call and asks whatever questions she feels are necessary.

And IMO, I don't think any breeder should feel responsible about where the buyers go that choose not to accept their contract. Breeders have no responsibility to provide to the masses. The only resonsibilty they have is to their puppies.


----------



## jacksonjack (Dec 14, 2011)

Wouldn't life be wonderful if everyone did what they were suppose to do ? If they made the effort to educate themselves in whatever they were thinking about doing and made wise choices with the knowledge that they possessed.

I provide contracted services to the state. They require we have policies and procedures. Every time any of my employees does something stupid I have to go to a plan of correction meeting and they have me write more policies and procedures.... 

I'm willing to bet that many breeders write extensive contracts because they want the best for thier puppies and hope that by being thorough they can cut down on negligence.

Unfortunately, like I once said to a Director from the State, " Do you really believe we can stop stupid ? At best we can minimize it"


----------



## LittleRedDawg (Oct 5, 2011)

Whew. Is the OP 12? With a $1000 dog I'd hope not, but calling the breeder repeatedly, including on different phone lines, and likely posting FB statuses (the breeder could see!) that simply screamed of "stressed, freaked out kid" -- I'd be taking the dog back too.

On the current subject of contracts- I like to own my dogs outright. I want a basic hip/elbow/eye guarantee but that's the extent of the involvement I want, and quite frankly, if the first dog didn't turn out well I'm probably not going to want a replacement puppy. I won't buy a dog on Limited Registration. Microchips in my name. All my dogs have been on Full Reg, including a MACH-CH-MH sired pup, CH-sired pup and a SH x SH (and both parents working on MH) pup. Quality breeders, yes, I think so. Just because they only have a one-page guarantee and not a 20-page legal contract that permits them to take the dog back at any time - that doesn't make them an irresponsible, irreputable breeder. But I want to *own* my dogs, not rent them, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not the only one who feels that way; there was an interesting discussion online recently by some OTCH handlers who wouldn't buy a dog on Limited Reg.

Thankfully there's a breeder for everyone out there.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

kdmarsh said:


> Whatever happened to honesty? Lying to avoid a small confrontation with someone who probably was looking for a way out of owning a puppy is just silly and small.


I would think the breeders were stressed, and took a while to decide what to do about the pup's welfare, talking it over. . .The last thing a breeder wants is for a home not to work out. The weeks between 8 and 12 are some of the most crucial and formative in a pup's life. It is a big deal to have those precious times go wrong.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I once considered a puppy from Honors Goldens, but part of their initial phone interview was discussing the rule not to let pups go up and down stairs for the first 6 months. I knew full well I could not abide by that, so I moved on in my search.


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

LittleRedDawg said:


> On the current subject of contracts- I like to own my dogs outright. I want a basic hip/elbow/eye guarantee but that's the extent of the involvement I want, and quite frankly, if the first dog didn't turn out well I'm probably not going to want a replacement puppy. I won't buy a dog on Limited Registration. Microchips in my name. All my dogs have been on Full Reg, including a MACH-CH-MH sired pup, CH-sired pup and a SH x SH (and both parents working on MH) pup. Quality breeders, yes, I think so. Just because they only have a one-page guarantee and not a 20-page legal contract that permits them to take the dog back at any time - that doesn't make them an irresponsible, irreputable breeder. But I want to *own* my dogs, not rent them, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not the only one who feels that way; there was an interesting discussion online recently by some OTCH handlers who wouldn't buy a dog on Limited Reg.
> 
> Thankfully there's a breeder for everyone out there.


I understand totally what you are saying. Here is my point of view on it.

I believe most responsible breeders will not sell a pup to a someone new to dogs on full registration. New to dogs interpreted as someone who has done more with a previous dog than raise it as a pet. 
Someone who has owned and been involved with their dog outside their home is a "safer" candidate to sell a dog on full registration in my opinion. And depending on the level of that involvement the likelihood of full registration in my opinion. 
There are also breeders who will not bend on this no matter what. I walked away from a pup that I was getting because the breeder did not tell me of this until the pups were 5 weeks old. And when I committed to the pup before they were whelped I was upfront and explained that if all went well my intention was to breed the pup down the road. As hard as it was I walked away from the litter. I was at the time heavily involved with the breed in multiple venues, had bred a couple of times and was highly active in local clubs for over a dozen years.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> I understand totally what you are saying. Here is my point of view on it.
> 
> I believe most responsible breeders will not sell a pup to a someone new to dogs on full registration. New to dogs interpreted as someone who has done more with a previous dog than raise it as a pet.
> Someone who has owned and been involved with their dog outside their home is a "safer" candidate to sell a dog on full registration in my opinion. And depending on the level of that involvement the likelihood of full registration in my opinion.
> There are also breeders who will not bend on this no matter what. I walked away from a pup that I was getting because the breeder did not tell me of this until the pups were 5 weeks old. And when I committed to the pup before they were whelped I was upfront and explained that if all went well my intention was to breed the pup down the road. As hard as it was I walked away from the litter. I was at the time heavily involved with the breed in multiple venues, had bred a couple of times and was highly active in local clubs for over a dozen years.


When I was getting my wolfhound Natalie,,, I had been involved in showing and breeding for quite some time obviously as she is only ten months old and I found a breeder with dogs that I liked... so I approached her at a show and even though I had been in dogs for many years she told me outright that she did not sell show puppies on full registration to anyone that she doesn't know well...so over the two years I made sure that she got to know me... that she felt comfortable and that she knew who I was... and in the end I got this show puppy on a full registration. If someone has a track record of doing things with their dogs I have no issues wtih a full registration... but each situation is different... 

When I first started in dogs (other than a pet) I was leary of things like co ownerships and contracts and all of that... but now that I have been doing this a while...I am not nearly as stressed about it... I understand that it is my dog... I understand the process and its nt nearly as scary but when I started out I remember being leary of all of this stuff.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> there was an interesting discussion online recently by some OTCH handlers who wouldn't buy a dog on Limited Reg.


I think I saw the same discussion... I thought it got a bit crazy with people declaring that they were going to use PAL to register their dogs. 

The other thing (and this is probably really bad of me), but I'm not sure if some OTCH dogs should be bred... or I guess I am concerned about people putting ability ahead of conformation and temperament. 

I talked with a breeder a while back... and this might be somebody I buy a puppy from down the road if she's still breeding dogs by then (I love her dogs - they are performance _and_ conformation). The way she handled registration is the dogs are n/s after 24 months. And if these dogs are conformation quality and the owners are interested, then she is willing to change the registration to full. But selling these puppies on limited registration gives her a little more control as a breeder. I think this is a rational way to go about it. I've heard of other breeders who only switch the registration after all clearances are done and come back shiny. Again, I think this is ideal.

Having full registration only matters if you are showing in conformation or intend to breed your dogs.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Let me just add one thing... I personally don't care if someone doesn't like how I do things... I don't care if they don't like my contract or if they think that it is over the top or whatever.. I don't care... I am not selling puppies as a way to make a living... I am not in the business of marketing puppies... so if you don't like it... or you think its over the top, or unreasonable or whatever, I honestly don't care. You don't want to get a puppy from me because you think I am unreasonable, whatever. I let people know right from the start what I require and what I expect, I send them out a copy of the contract before they even come to visit so that they can read the contract and ask questions. 

Most of the folks who come to me for a puppy come to me because of how I raise my dogs and puppies so most of the things that I require are things that they will do anyway, I just put it in writing so they know that it is the expectation. 

I keep reading these posts about how people don't like that and they think its over the top and they dont want a contract etc etc ... well there are plenty of breeders out there go find one.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I believe some of these stipulations I am reading about that are in contracts are way over the top. I also personally would never want to rent a dog or have them pry into my personal life either. However now hearing how some of these breeders really don't care what others think.....at least you are honest and I respect this. But why would I want to do business with someone who didn't care what I thought JMHO. Actually that's what turned me off with a rescue that we were working with. And as someone else already mentioned, thankfully there are breeders for everyone out there. And by not having a 10 plus page contract with major stipulations does not make them irresponsible breeders as some here make it sound.


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Sometimes an owner must break the contract for the best interest of the dog. My breeder had handwritten in the contract "No Lepto" - well, I live in a high lepto area. I have had multiple discussions with my vet and held off for quite a while, and the lepto vaccine is in the best interest for my dogs.


----------



## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Uh... call the police? She literally just stole your dog.


----------



## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

ryan74701 said:


> just checked my mail the breeder has sent me a letter stating her reasons and the her bank is issuing me a check for 800, i still do not understand why she couldn't have just talked to me on the phone and told me this and not burned bridges.


Disregard on contacting the cops. Now you have to sue.


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Braccarius said:


> Disregard on contacting the cops. Now you have to sue.



Think you might want to read all the posts first, before suggesting this.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Would any of you breeders be so kind as to post the terms and conditions of your contracts, for educational purposes? I hesitate to ask because everyone will start nit-picking individual terms and conditions, but I am very curious because I will be starting the search in the next year or so (I hope) and I'd like to know exactly what I may be seeing in contracts.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I'd rather not post the contracts for my dogs since it's a public forum and I didn't breed the dogs, but I can certainly PM them to you if you'd like to look at them. They will be slightly different than what you will likely see, because our dogs were all purchased as show prospects so they are on full registration and there are provisions for breeding, co-ownership, etc. The guarantee would be different too because we have the option to keep the puppy, spay/neuter the puppy and keep or place into a pet home, and then get a replacement show prospect. 

I've drafted contracts for a number of my breeder friends and I do not think they all had the best contracts before I got my hands on them. Some were better than others, but many needed some serious re-vamping. They were really convoluted and needed to be clarified so that an average person could read and understand them. I was told that at one point there was a sample contract circulating among some breeder circles so I think a lot of them used that and then modified it to suit their needs.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I am happy to share mine I have to go and get it and cut and paste it but yeah give me an hour or so and I will happily post mine. 
s


----------



## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> Think you might want to read all the posts first, before suggesting this.


LOL I think you're right. I posted a reply on page one after reading his inital post then jumped down a bit. Didn't realize this thing was 11 pages...


----------



## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Scratch that... 18 pages.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

This is my full registration contract my comments are in parenthesis... some of the provisions are marked n/a at the time of the signature... this is my flat coat contract so its a little older and needs a bit of updating... what I did was took all of the contracts I had wiht other breeders and took the provisions that I felt were important... of course with a limited registration contract the breeding section in removed and provisions about spaying and neutering are added. My golden retriever contract is wholey the same this is just the one I could find easily in my files... the only difference is really the clearance info... as new things come up the contract is adjusted to meet current times and current issues ie. new clearances etc. I am happy to answer questions about the contract... this is provided prior to the first meeting so questions can be asked and answered... changes made as necessary... then when the pup is ready to go home each provision must by initialized by the new owner and the contract as a whole signed as well as the right of first refusal which is signed separately... 


Contract and Bill of Sale – Full Registration Show/Breeding Potential Animal 


This is a legally binding contract that can and will be enforced in a court of law. By affixing my signature herein, I agree that I have read and understood all the terms within and agree to abide by them.

This contract made this day of by and between Seller and Buyer (s) . Seller agrees to sell and Buyer agrees to buy, both upon the following unalterable terms and conditions, a certain flat-coated retriever described below.

Seller: 
Address: 
Telephone: 
e-mail: 

Buyer: 
Address: 
Telephone: e-mail: 


Date of Sale: 
Purchase Price: 
Breed: Sex: Color: 

Date of Birth: 

Place of Birth: 

Clearance information:

Sire: AKC#: CKC#: 
OFA hips#: 
OFA elbows#: 
OFA patella’s#: 
OFA thyroid#: 
OFA cardiac#: 
CERF#: 

Dam: AKC#: CKC#: 
OFA hips#: 
OFA elbows#: 
OFA patella’s#: 
OFA thyroid#: 
OFA cardiac#: 
CERF#: 

AKC Litter Number of Animal to be sold: 
CKC registration number (if applicable): 

Registered Name of puppy: 

Microchip # of Animal to be Sold: 

Intended Purpose (circle all that apply):
Companion/pet Conformation Hunting/field Obedience Agility Tracking Other

Guarantee: No warranties or guarantees expressed or implied are made under this contract except as stated below. 

This show and breeding potential dog is an animal that goes above and beyond the definition of a pet dog. This breeding was carefully planned on thoughtful consideration of the qualities, accomplishments, pedigree, clearances, as well as the temperaments of both the sire and the dam. It is hoped that this breeding will produce sound puppies of correct type with show, field, and obedience potential and most importantly the outstanding temperament and personality that make the flat coated retriever an ideal companion.

It is the opinion of the breeder(s) (Seller) that it is difficult if not impossible to determine the relative quality of individual puppies at the age when puppies go to their new homes. A person who is looking for a guaranteed “show quality” or “breeding” quality puppy is strongly urged to buy an older mature animal whose merits can be more accurately assessed. 

The Flat-Coated Retriever described herein is, at the time of sale, in good health, to the best of the Seller knowledge and belief. Any lingering health concerns have been discussed and are listed below. It shall be the Buyers responsibility and expense to have the pup examined by a licensed veterinarian of the Buyer choice, within seventy-two (72) hours of sale, during which time the pup along with all paperwork may be returned to the Seller for a full refund of the purchase price.

This animal is purebred, registerable with the AKC, and free of all disqualifying faults at the time of sale. This animal is in no way guaranteed to win in the show ring. It is understood that with proper care on the part of the Buyer, in due time the dog should be of acceptable temperament and structure and should embody the basic standards of the breed. 

The following conditions, clearly marked, are fully understood and agreed upon by both Seller and Buyer(s). Should Buyer(s) fail to comply in any material way with any of the following applicable conditions without the Seller prior written approval, Seller shall have the right to immediately take repossession of said puppy/dog and ownership shall immediately revert to Seller at no cost to Seller.

(a.) This animal is guaranteed to be free of hereditary/disabling defects apparent by 36 months of age. Determination of what constitutes a hereditary defect is to be by the unanimous agreement of two (2) board certified veterinarians agreeable to both parties. One of these veterinarians is to be a tenured faculty member of an accredited university veterinary teaching hospital or is to hold Board Certification in the applicable specialty. Cost of the opinions is to be assumed by the Buyer. 

(b.) This puppy/dog is guaranteed to be of good temperament at the time of sale. 

(c.) This puppy/dog is guaranteed to be free of any AKC disqualifying faults by 24 months of age.

(d). If the Seller agrees that the above dog is unsuitable for the purpose for which it was intended because of failure to meet the above conditions, the Seller will, at her discretion, either refund the entire purchase price or replace the dog with the next like available prospect, provided the living dog and its registration papers are returned to the Seller. Seller and Buyer may agree that Buyer can keep this dog, and Seller will refund half of the purchase price of the puppy/dog upon proof of spay/neuter. In no case will a dog with a disqualifying fault or hereditary health condition be bred. 

(e.) No refund will be provided in the above circumstances if the dog has been bred. These guarantees do not cover minor illness easily treated, nor do they cover illness or injury caused by the negligence of the New Owner, such as poisoning, dehydration, injury or infection.



SECTION I - GENERAL PROVISIONS 
( )1. If Buyer(s) is unable or unwilling to keep this puppy/dog for any reason at any time during the lifetime of the puppy/dog, Seller shall have the right of first refusal (see attached signature sheet). This puppy/dog is not to be sold, given away or transferred without first notifying the Seller. Buyer will be reimbursed the fair market value of puppy/dog as determined by Seller. Buyer(s) understands he/she has no recourse except to accept any such offer, if it is to be made. This clause is unconditional and completely unalterable. (I am willing to allow puppies to go to family members etc if necessary as long as it is discussed prior) 
( )2. That the first word of this puppy/dog’s AKC registered name shall be Milbrose or Milbrose’s. This puppy/dog’s registered name shall be with a call name of . 
( )3. Buyer(s) agrees to comply with all laws pertaining to dog ownership including licensing and leash laws and shall not use or allow puppy/dog to be used in any unlawful activity.
( )4. This puppy/dog, and any of its offspring will not be sold or transferred at any time, by any means to any pet store, individual or organization that owns, breeds or transfers dogs with financial gain as a primary purpose.

( )5. Buyer(s) shall have attended and graduated from at least two (2) basic obedience courses with this puppy/dog, prior to the puppy/dog’s first birthday or one year from date of sale which will be and Buyer shall submit certification to Seller that this condition has been met. (most puppy people don't submit the certification to me but we talk often enough so I know that the pups are being well trained... my primary goal is to have people train the pup so that it is a well behaved good citizen) 

( )6. Buyer(s) agrees to keep Seller informed of this puppy/dog’s welfare through periodical (bi-annual) letters/emails, and/or phone calls, and shall supply Seller with at least one photograph, full-bodied side-view per year. In addition Buyer agrees to answer and return a yearly questionnaire to Seller. (I talk and email my puppy people all the time so this is generally unnecessary) 

( )7. Buyer(s) shall notify Seller of any changes of address/phone numbers throughout the course of this puppy/dog’s life.
( )8. Buyer(s) understands that Seller may inspect both the puppy/dog and the area in which it is kept, at any given time. (I have never felt the need to do this as I screen well and see my puppy people and their photos all the time, but this gives me the right to do this if I suspect that something is wrong)

( )9. Buyer(s) understands that he/she must join the Flat-Coated Retriever Society of America and Buyer agrees to uphold the code of ethics for this organization. The purpose of this is to provide the Buyer with an informative and interesting way to learn about the issues that affect the Flat-Coated Retriever, as well as the different areas of interest for both the Buyer and the puppy/dog. 

( )10. If Buyer(s) is purchasing a dog with the purpose of showing and the dog is deemed “show quality” upon maturation, Buyer(s) agrees to actively campaign the puppy/dog toward its AKC Championship, however, Seller shall not guarantee the relative quality of the puppy/dog, except that it will be free of any disqualifying faults.

( )11. Buyer(s) shall provide Seller with proof of any and all titles earned by this puppy/dog, by means of certificates and/or show photos. (they are usually so excited that I get calls immediately) 

SECTION 2 - HEALTH AND WELFARE: The Buyer agrees to provide adequate housing according to state law, and confine the animal in a fenced yard or kennel run or walk on leash, but not to confine on a rope or chain. Buyer will not relegate dog to backyard or kennel only. This dog or bitch is sold with the understanding that it will be housed indoors and become a member of the family. This dog’s primary residence must be within the family home. 
( )12. Buyer(s) shall at all times provide a safely fenced yard or kennel/run of adequate size for exercise, with protection from the sun and other elements. (I have made exceptions to this for people who live in a place that can't be fenced... ie. apt or NYC condo)

( )13. Puppy/dog shall not be tied out or kept on a chain nor EVER transported in an open truck.
( )14. Buyer(s) shall provide a crate or exercise pen for confining the puppy/dog.
( )15. Buyer(s) shall not allow the puppy/dog to be abused, neglected, tormented or teased by any person or animal.
( )16. Buyer(s) shall provide proper veterinary care for the life of the puppy/dog, including vaccinations or titers in accordance with state law and the AVMA current recommendations.
( )18. Buyer(s) shall feed an appropriate balanced diet. A breeder approved raw diet is preferred. However, a quality food may be chosen from the list attached or any food listed on Whole Dog Journals list of top ten canine foods may be chosen. Water shall be available at all times. If the dog is on another food without sellers consent than one on the Whole Dog Journals list, then the health guarantee shall be nullified. (there are other good foods but I don't want a puppy on Ole Roy)
( )19. Buyer agrees to keep animal in healthy weight and condition. All guarantees are nullified if the puppy/dog is found to be overweight. (generally extended periods of time but I am not going to guarantee a puppy that is 20-30 pounds overweight) 
( )20. Buyer(s) shall notify Seller upon the death of this puppy/dog, and shall inform Seller as to the cause of death. (if they know the cause of death) 
SECTION 3 - BREEDING: 
( )21. This puppy/dog shall not be bred without the express written permission of Seller. Permission will be granted only in select cases at the discretion of the Seller. No untitled dog/bitch shall be bred under any circumstances. 
( )22. No bitch shall be bred more than 3 times during her lifetime, without express written permission from breeder.
( )23. This puppy/dog shall be x-rayed and certified free of hereditary hip dysplasia(grade of good or better), elbow dysplasia, patellar luxation, by the orthopedic foundation for animals. They will also be certified free of Thyroid disorders and shall have a gonioscopy completed. This puppy/dog shall be certified free of inherited eye disorders by the canine eye registration foundation or qualified experts in these fields prior to breeding and by the third birthday of puppy/dog which shall be and at which time certification shall be made to Seller that these conditions have been met. There will be no exceptions to this rule without written consent of breeder. (remember this is my flat coat contract... heart clearances are not required nor is optigen testing for ich, or pra) 
( )24. Before any breedings are undertaken it is the responsibility of the Buyer to determine the potential colors of the puppies. VetGen testing must be done on the potential Dam and Sire to be sure that there will be no Yellow puppies. (Flat-Coated Retrievers only).
( )25. Buyer(s) must receive written approval from the Seller on any and all proposed breedings of this animal. Breedings will only be considered to dogs or bitches with OFA hip certification, patellar certification, elbow certification, gonioscopy and eye exam (CERF) clearances. No breedings of this animal will be undertaken without the written approval of the Seller. (this is a provision that most of my puppy people like, it lets them off the hook if they are approached by someone they don't want to breed the dog to, especially the males, this allows them to refer them to me and I can be the bad guy, I have this provision in my contracts from other breeders and I like having it) 
( )26. This dog/bitch will not be spayed or neutered without prior written approval of the Seller, except in the case of a medical emergency. If such a medical emergency exists (i.e. pyometra), copies of veterinary findings and records must be forwarded to Seller within 2 weeks of spay/neuter. (I need to keep track of what is going on with the pup) 
( )27. Buyer(s) agrees to give Seller breeding(s) of this puppy/dog, which will also be considered as a live litter, of at least three (3) puppies, at the Seller convenience and discretion. In the case of a bitch, Seller will conduct the whelping at a mutually agreed upon time and place in accordance and agreement between Buyer and Seller. (I have never done this and will probably remove this provision altogether, this is mostly for co-ownerships and other situations like that but I don't generally do that) 
( )28. Buyer(s) agrees to not place or sell any offspring of this animal at auction, or to donate any offspring to any individual or organization for the purpose of placing that animal for auction. 
( )29. Buyer(s) agrees to not sell or place any offspring of this animal overseas or in any foreign country with the exception of Canada without written approval from the Seller. 
( )30. Buyer(s) agrees that this animals shall never be bred to a dog of another breed.

The Buyer is purchasing a dog of a rare retrieving breed. The Buyer has been given a list of breed traits and has been encouraged to contact the Seller with any and all questions. The Seller will make every effort to be a valuable and encouraging resource for the Buyer.
The Buyer further understands that the breeders of this breed do all that they can to keep this breed true to its original purpose and to protect it from harm. The Buyer is expected to do the same by, at the very least, fulfilling the requirements of this contract. 
The Seller of this dog is a member in good standing of the Flat-Coated Retriever Society of America and the Northeast Flat-Coated Retriever Club, and as such the Seller follows the Code of Ethics outlined by those organizations.
Failure to comply with any and all of the above conditions will void all guarantees. Seller will have the right to repossess the dog. Buyer will immediately forfeit ownership and possession of the dog and will forfeit all moneys expended for the purchase and maintenance of said dog, as well as transportation fees to return dog to Seller. In addition the Buyer will be responsible for any and all legal costs that the Seller accrues enforcing this contract. 
Buyer and Seller agree that this contract will be governed by the laws of the State of ___________, in the county of _________, and may not be altered.
Signed:

SELLER: _____________________________________________
Date:_________________________________________________
BUYER:______________________________________________
Date:_________________________________________________
Witness:______________________________________________
Date:_________________________________________________
 

Right of First Refusal
I __________________________, having read this entire document, do certify by affixing my signature here, that I understand that if, at any time during the course of this puppy/dog’s life, I am no longer able or willing to keep or maintain ownership of said puppy/dog, I have no recourse but to give Seller the right of first refusal. 
Further I understand that my failure to do so, or my surrendering the dog to any other party, shelter, or facility will result in a breach of contract suit that will be pursued in a court of law, and that I may be subject to fines and penalties under the law. 
I understand that the Flat-Coated Retriever is a wonderful animal that is guarded jealously by its keepers, and that the breeder (Seller) who has agreed to share with me this lifelong friend and companion, will go to any lengths to ensure the continued well being and happiness of the puppy/dog that has been placed in my care. 
I agree to uphold the trust that this breeder(s) (Seller) has placed in me and certify that I will, in fact, return this puppy/dog to the Seller if, at any time, I am no longer able to, or willing to, keep it.
SIGNED:____________________________________________________
DATE:______________________________________________________
NAME (please print)___________________________________________
ADDRESS___________________________________________________
CITY/TOWN_________________________________________________
TEL#______________________E-MAIL__________________________
NAME OF CLOSEST RELATIVE NOT LIVING WITH YOU_________
____________________________________________________________


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Let me just add one thing in the case of bing we offered the family the entire purchase price and the costs of what they had paid for medical care to date and they could have kept him but they did not want him anymore we later found out that he was neglected by the family we took him back and refunded all their money and expenses


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Thanks for sharing your contract terms and conditions. I agree--if a potential purchaser doesn't like them, they should look elsewhere. 

One question-- did I miss microchip requirements? None of my dogs have ever needed a microchip to get them home; however, it's something I feel very strongly about as a pet owner--having our contact information and our vet's contact information on a microchip. I certainly have no objection to a breeder remaining as a contact on the chip. Do breeders have objections to something like this, especially if the purchaser is out of state?

Also, this is a general question--are any of you aware of any of these contracts being litigated, and, if so, which terms? I'm just curious how state courts regard the provisions of returning pups (again, from a broad perspective), given many states still regard animals as property with no special considerations. By this I mean the court *might* regard puppies much like a car purchase transaction. If a dealer had a provision the purchaser must return the car if the purchaser drives it over 100 mph or doesn't wear a seat belt in the car--I'm pretty sure a court might find that provision unenforceable. I'm just wondering if a court has considered a puppy return clause (assuming it even gets as far as a courtroom).


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Dallas Gold said:


> Thanks for sharing your contract terms and conditions. I agree--if a potential purchaser doesn't like them, they should look elsewhere.
> 
> One question-- did I miss microchip requirements? None of my dogs have ever needed a microchip to get them home; however, it's something I feel very strongly about as a pet owner--having our contact information and our vet's contact information on a microchip. I certainly have no objection to a breeder remaining as a contact on the chip. Do breeders have objections to something like this, especially if the purchaser is out of state?
> 
> Also, this is a general question--are any of you aware of any of these contracts being litigated, and, if so, which terms? I'm just curious how state courts regard the provisions of returning pups (again, from a broad perspective), given many states still regard animals as property with no special considerations. By this I mean the court *might* regard puppies much like a car purchase transaction. If a dealer had a provision the purchaser must return the car if the purchaser drives it over 100 mph or doesn't wear a seat belt in the car--I'm pretty sure a court might find that provision unenforceable. I'm just wondering if a court has considered a puppy return clause (assuming it even gets as far as a courtroom).


There is no microchip requirement because all pups are chipped before they leave my home and I am listed as first contact. The reason I do this is because my experience has been that puppy people are notoriously bad about updating the data when they move AND if I take a puppy back like I did Bing it can be a pain to update the chips. If I am first contact I get the phone call then I can either go and get the pup or get hold of the family and let them know where to go and get their dog or I can go and get the puppy give them the requisite lecture about keeping their dog contained... or help them troubleshoot a fence issue or whatever and get their puppy back to them. 

I know that I am not moving and that I am good about making sure the data on the chip is up to date and that is the only reason I do that. The puppy family is second contact as is their family members etc. It also lets me know whether an escaping puppy is a one time deal (hey it happens, its happened to me) or if this is an ongoing problem etc. 

I did have a woman who did not want her puppy to have any kind of permanent ID, she didn't want a microchip and she refused to do a tattoo... and that was a deal breaker for me. I refunded her money and sent her to another breeder who didn't have the same requirement. No puppy leaves my house wihtout permanent ID. 

As far as litigation some have been litigated. I used the wording in this contract as it is and had them initial each provision because it had been litigated by another breeder.... 

Keep in mind that some of what I put in my contract is not enforceable... some of it is, but it does let people know very clearly the standard of care that I expect from them for this puppy. Is a judge going to enforce gee you have to feed this food from this list or give me back your puppy no of course not... but does it let the family know what I expect sure. The reality is that most people come to me for a puppy and wait and very long time because of how I raise my puppies. The come because I raise them naturally with few shots, with a natural diet, with holistic care, all that so for the most part they are on the same page as I am to begin with. 

I get alot of emails that say something like... I just lost my dog to cancer a few months ago and we are looking for a puppy that is raised naturally .... that is how most of the emails I get generally start. Can I guarantee they won't have cancer of course not... but can I try to do my best to keep their exposure to toxins as minimal as possible absolutely can. 

I am glad the contract helped. I do have a limited registration contract that has provisions for spay and neuter etc. I can share that if you need it or want to see it, most of it is the same except for the spay/neuter provisions and I will void a health warranty if someone spays or neuters early. 

Keep in mind that this is written as a where we will start for the health guarantee but we went beyond that for bing. It just says ok this is what is in writing but ya know we can do more if necessary (but not required).


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Shalva said:


> There is no microchip requirement because all pups are chipped before they leave my home and I am listed as first contact. The reason I do this is because my experience has been that puppy people are notoriously bad about updating the data when they move AND if I take a puppy back like I did Bing it can be a pain to update the chips. If I am first contact I get the phone call then I can either go and get the pup or get hold of the family and let them know where to go and get their dog or I can go and get the puppy give them the requisite lecture about keeping their dog contained... or help them troubleshoot a fence issue or whatever and get their puppy back to them.
> 
> I know that I am not moving and that I am good about making sure the data on the chip is up to date and that is the only reason I do that. The puppy family is second contact as is their family members etc. It also lets me know whether an escaping puppy is a one time deal (hey it happens, its happened to me) or if this is an ongoing problem etc.
> 
> ...


Thank you. To me these provisions scream of the dog's best interests at heart. 

Is a limited spay/neuter agreement for 12 months or 18 months? 

I figured the feeding issue is probably unenforceable if it got down to it, but it probably wouldn't even be an issue unless there is *trouble* elsewhere in the breeder/purchaser relationship. I'm also confident that if the dog developed some sort of issue with the foods on the WDJ top 10 list, the purchaser and breeder would make an individual exception based on the individual circumstances, after consulting with the dog's veterinarian or a specialist.

Thanks again...I want to be prepared when the time comes!


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Dallas Gold said:


> Thank you. To me these provisions scream of the dog's best interests at heart.
> 
> Is a limited spay/neuter agreement for 12 months or 18 months?
> 
> ...


My spay neuter provisions are no spaying or neutering without express written permission prior to age 3 for males and two heat cycles for girls. If someone spays or neuters prior to this they void their health guarantee. There is to much data out there that indicates that spay/neuter prior to sexual maturity is not good... (this is a whole other topic for a different day and I am not going to get into debates about it) every breeder feels differently about this...Does this stress me out ... you betcha but if I can't trust someone with an intact dog for a couple of years then I can't trust them period. I do believe it is better for the pup to stay intact longer and that is something that I require.... I have given permission for an earlier spay or neuter in specific cases, like a family in NYC that had trouble walking their dog in public places which they had to do in NYC without other dogs bothering them.... I did give them permission to spay earlier. Alot of my contract is based on individual needs... I add and subtract provisions based on the individuals and the issues in society at the time. I never thought I would have to add a provision about not breeding to another breed but I did. 

hope this helps

oh and thank you, I don't think there is anything unreasonable in the contract but that is just me


----------



## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I do not feel this was a shady breeder, i feel they found out how un prepaired,the buyer was, and rescued the pup.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

goldensrbest said:


> I do not feel this was a shady breeder, i feel they found out how un prepaired,the buyer was, and rescued the pup.


I agree... the breeder may not have handled it the best way but its hard to take a puppy back... especially if you are not comfortable with the puppy people ... I agree with you.... I probably would have also refunded the deposit but that is just me.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Shalva said:


> My spay neuter provisions are no spaying or neutering without express written permission prior to age 3 for males and two heat cycles for girls. If someone spays or neuters prior to this they void their health guarantee. There is to much data out there that indicates that spay/neuter prior to sexual maturity is not good... (this is a whole other topic for a different day and I am not going to get into debates about it) every breeder feels differently about this...Does this stress me out ... you betcha but if I can't trust someone with an intact dog for a couple of years then I can't trust them period. I do believe it is better for the pup to stay intact longer and that is something that I require.... I have given permission for an earlier spay or neuter in specific cases, like a family in NYC that had trouble walking their dog in public places which they had to do in NYC without other dogs bothering them.... I did give them permission to spay earlier. Alot of my contract is based on individual needs... I add and subtract provisions based on the individuals and the issues in society at the time. I never thought I would have to add a provision about not breeding to another breed but I did.
> 
> hope this helps
> 
> oh and thank you, I don't think there is anything unreasonable in the contract but that is just me


What you are saying, IMO, is you are flexible on terms, depending on the individual situation of the dog, owner and your level of trust.


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Shalva, your contract seems very fair. 

I like how you do say that:

(I am willing to allow puppies to go to family members etc if necessary as long as it is discussed prior)

because some breeders do not allow this.

As for microchip - I have kept MacKenzie's microchip information with the rescue we got her from. I feel that if she does go missing, most likely it will be because of severe storms in the Midwest. If anything happens to us, my family is on the East coast, so it is probably best that the rescue we got her from is the contact.


----------



## Aislinn (Nov 13, 2010)

I also have a clause that the dog I sell to the buyer must be returned to me if they cannot keep it for any reason. It may be given to a family member or friend as long as that person is willing to discuss it with me and sign the same contract the first buyer had. For me, the important thing is the dog is in a home where it is loved and taken proper care of. I also require the dog to have an eye exam done at seven to nine years of age even if a pet. PRA is one of the health screening we do in Papillons but it is almost always late onset. I will pay for the exam if done at a show clinic and will help them find a show with one close to them. I want to know that all my dogs show clear for PRA, not just the ones that go to show homes. I also require that the dog is in their will and that I am notified should anything happen to the owner. I also require Christmas cards with pictures. I have made some wonderful friends through my dogs. I think you'll find reputable breeders are interested first and foremost in the welfare of their dogs, be they the ones in their houses or the ones they place in pet or show homes.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

cubbysan said:


> Shalva, your contract seems very fair.
> 
> I like how you do say that:
> 
> ...


I feel the opposite on the microchip insofar as a rescue group is concerned in my own personal situation. If Toby got out he'd stay close to home and if anyone found him they'd probably take him to the nearest vet clinic to scan, which is our vet clinic. Local animal control often stops by this clinic to check chips too (guess they don't have scanners in their vans). I'd rather have my contact info and vet clinic contact info on the chip than the rescue as *only* contact, simply because I'd be right there and the vet clinic always knows how to find me. They will also keep client pets for owners until they can reclaim them if they are current on vaccinations. Most rescues use a voice mail system and it's all dependent on the speed of reacting to voice mails and going and getting the dog. We were fortunate that we were able to chip Toby ourselves, before his rescue started chipping all intakes. This is my own personal preference and of course a rescue can do whatever they want for their dogs before adopting them out.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Aislinn said:


> I also have a clause that the dog I sell to the buyer must be returned to me if they cannot keep it for any reason. It may be given to a family member or friend as long as that person is willing to discuss it with me and sign the same contract the first buyer had. For me, the important thing is the dog is in a home where it is loved and taken proper care of. I also require the dog to have an eye exam done at seven to nine years of age even if a pet. PRA is one of the health screening we do in Papillons but it is almost always late onset. I will pay for the exam if done at a show clinic and will help them find a show with one close to them. I want to know that all my dogs show clear for PRA, not just the ones that go to show homes. I also require that the dog is in their will and that I am notified should anything happen to the owner. *I also require Christmas cards with pictures*. I have made some wonderful friends through my dogs. I think you'll find reputable breeders are interested first and foremost in the welfare of their dogs, be they the ones in their houses or the ones they place in pet or show homes.


 That's too funny! If I were a breeder, I'd probably require photos every month or so.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Aislinn said:


> I also have a clause that the dog I sell to the buyer must be returned to me if they cannot keep it for any reason. It may be given to a family member or friend as long as that person is willing to discuss it with me and sign the same contract the first buyer had. For me, the important thing is the dog is in a home where it is loved and taken proper care of. I also require the dog to have an eye exam done at seven to nine years of age even if a pet. PRA is one of the health screening we do in Papillons but it is almost always late onset. I will pay for the exam if done at a show clinic and will help them find a show with one close to them. I want to know that all my dogs show clear for PRA, not just the ones that go to show homes. I also require that the dog is in their will and that I am notified should anything happen to the owner. I also require Christmas cards with pictures. I have made some wonderful friends through my dogs. I think you'll find reputable breeders are interested first and foremost in the welfare of their dogs, be they the ones in their houses or the ones they place in pet or show homes.


Unfortunately there is no PRA test for flat coats as of yet... they can find it but it is very very rare in flat coats... so far... knock on wood... this is probably going to change but for right now we are in the clear for it... 

I agree... I care about all my puppies, they will always be my puppies... I just finished chatting with a puppy parent whose pup came up positive for lyme we have spent alot of time chatting for the past few days... as soon as the snow clears the pups will get together with some of the others for play dates... I dont have to require christmas cards... I usually get them anyway and I see their pictures all the time anyway... I agree I have made some great friends with my puppy people ... they are wonderful and I am very very lucky to have found them all....


----------

