# Understanding Pedigrees



## HiTideGoldens

I am interested to see what kind of response you get to this question, if any. I have found that generally breeders are very willing to discuss their own lines and other lines they are familiar with if asked, but I'm not sure they will do it on a public internet forum.


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## sterregold

We have fewer distinct bloodlines now than we used to when there were large breeding kennels, as there were 30+ years ago. Then you could very often look at a Golden, and know whose breeding was behind it, as each of the influential kennels had quite a distinct "look" or phenotype. There is still a bit of that around, but I find more and more breeders now do not have that look that is distinctively theirs. Your girl has a lot of Asterling in her pedigree's foundation (note that when you look at her COI from 10 to 12 generations there is a notable rise in COI because of the concentration of those Asterling dogs). Aruba really was fundamental to the Asterling breeding program, and she was quite a distinctive bitch in looks, and that carried through in the phenotype you saw from them. Gold Rush, Faera, Rush Hill, and Malagold all also have quite distinctive phenotypes, while still being possessing general breed type. In Canada you would see this with Kyon, in England with Stanroph, in Scandinavia with Dewmist, and so on. If you go through k9data or standfastdata or the GRCA yearbook or the UK GRC yearbooks and look at pictures of dogs from each of these kennels you will start to note common features and characteristics shared by dogs coming from each breeding program (and I am speaking less of colour and more like things such as angulation, head characteristics [muzzle, eyes, ear shape, earset], and outline, and those sorts of fundamental physical aspects). 

Often this sort of distinctive style comes from quite intensive use of linebreeding to set type, and also to only using phenotypically similar dogs when outcrossing. Saying type-to-type in describing a breeding, can really mean two things: genotype and phenotype. Most people use the phrase when referring to a phenotype-to-phenotype breeding, and use the term linebreeding when doing a genotype-to-genotype breeding. 

Some breeders are fanatically opposed to any linebreeding, despite it being the tool by which overall breed type was set. Essentially, without it, we would not have a breed. Some of the less educated anti-linebreeders will only do a breeding if it is low COI and without any shared ancestors in the first five generations, but make their selections based only on the paper and not on the dogs themselves. A better outcross is done to avoid multiplying the impact of a dog who carries with it health issues or temperament problems or structural issues, but uses a sire and dam who resemble one another physically, so while the pedigrees of the dogs in the breeding may be diverse compared to one another there will still be physical predictability in the offspring. When you do this, you are often doing it to build more genetic options into your breeding program. I have done these sorts of breedings, and like them. I did it with my Trey X Breeze litter, and what I got from it was part of my rationale in going to Trooper(who is a Trey grandson) for her last litter. As a young dog, Trooper looked exactly like Breeze's Trey son, Baron. So even though the pedigree is more open, I do not expect surprises in terms of structure and physical characteristics, and I am looking to bring in some of the wonderful working attitude he has been proven to produce when bred to girls with a pedigree similar to Breeze's. 

As to knowing what is in the lines presnt in your dog's pedigree, it comes down to knowing the strengths and dangers lurking in the pedigree (which often people are reluctant to share unless they really get to know you and are sure you are committed to the breed, and will not go on a witch hunt--some breeders have really been burned and so are cautious--but there are no perfect dogs, remember--there are issue present in EVERY pedigree) So, as a for instance, with Breeze's daughter Bonnie from the Trey litter, I will not linebreed on what is behind Trey on the sire line, as undershot and wry bites are a known issue there with a certain dog--I would not multiple him in a breeding I did with her. But there are other dogs in that pedigree, I would gladly double up on to bring forward.

If you are trying to correct a structural issue, a line breeding on a dog who was strong in that feature and known to be prepotent in throwing it will be more effective. An outcross breeding is not going to be as effective in correcting a structural issue, because there will not be the shared genes for the strong expression of that trait. An exception to this can be the case where one of the pairing is heavily linebred on a dog prepotent for the trait (physical or performance), and the other has a very open pedigree--you can see this in the Firemark breedings of Pony who had a very low COI and the pups from each of her litters very much favour their sires. Then to capitalize on that, one would have to breed back into the pedigree from which the trait came--which if you look at Firemark breedings for performance, is what Melanie has done.

Many people will also say that it is really only the first 5 generations that matter, as the % of contribution of each dog decreases so much the further you get back in the pedigree. However, I think it is important to look at those extended pedigrees and run influence tables, as backmassing can make a dog you do not immediately see very influential in your pedigree. There are some very influential dogs in our pedigrees whose descendents have been bred together, who were the product of breeding of litter sisters to the same stud dog, or brother stud dogs etc. 

It is really quite fascinating, and takes a long time to dig into at a deeper level (which is one of the reasons I was in the breed 12 years before I ever bred a litter!)


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## KeaColorado

FWIW, and I'm in a similar position as you in being pretty new and wanting to satisfy my thirst for knowledge, a lot of what I've learned about my own girlie's pedigree has arisen from informal hanging out with other golden breeders, show people, and performance people, often when there is food and tasty beverages involved  My own quest for knowledge has been driven by an excellent mentor who has been willing to introduce me to people, get me plugged in, and teach me what questions to ask. People who are a part of my local network all know each other well, often through relationships built over 30 years. My husband is a woodworker, which is another trade that requires the right network and a time of apprenticeship. I've found the world of goldens to be very similar in a lot of ways. Getting a foot in the door can be hard if you don't have someone to push you through, but once you're in, the experienced folks LOVE to share what they know. After all, the future of the breed is at stake, and it hinges upon this transfer of knowledge that in many cases is not written down.


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## drofen

Sterregold--

You've helped me learn so very much about things from the breeder's eyes. I find all of this fascinating.

I _think_ I could be potentially interested in breeding someday, but that is _years _down the road for me as I have _so_ much to learn. 

Thank you for sharing your knowledge in the meantime, and feeding that curiosity for me!


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## sterregold

A great book to get into some of the theory is Carmen Battaglia's _Breeding Better Dogs_. It really focuses on conformation breeding, but the use of his stick dogs to track physical traits can also be applied to performance traits as well. Another great learning source is Carla Orlandi, who is a Basset breeder. She puts on excellent seminars on structure and breeding programs. A great book to read on the development of a line is _Snakefoot: The Making of a Champion_ which is about the development of the Elhew Pointers.
And if you can handle reading scientific journals there is a tonne of research on farm livestock where there is a definite financial incentive to do the research. There is huge money in the dairy industry, and as a result a lot of time is spent on pedigree and production research ( I grew up in the cattle breeding industry which is part of why I am such a pedigree and research wonk). Do a search on "pedigree cattle" in Google Scholar and you will get some fascinating articles that track the heritability of certain traits, like milk production.


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## drofen

sterregold said:


> A great book to get into some of the theory is Carmen Battaglia's _Breeding Better Dogs_. It really focuses on conformation breeding, but the use of his stick dogs to track physical traits can also be applied to performance traits as well. Another great learning source is Carla Orlandi, who is a Basset breeder. She puts on excellent seminars on structure and breeding programs. A great book to read on the development of a line is _Snakefoot: The Making of a Champion_ which is about the development of the Elhew Pointers.
> And if you can handle reading scientific journals there is a tonne of research on farm livestock where there is a definite financial incentive to do the research. There is huge money in the dairy industry, and as a result a lot of time is spent on pedigree and production research ( I grew up in the cattle breeding industry which is part of why I am such a pedigree and research wonk). Do a search on "pedigree cattle" in Google Scholar and you will get some fascinating articles that track the heritability of certain traits, like milk production.


Carmelo Battaglia: Breeding Better Dogs: Carmelo L. Battaglia: 9780932419064: Amazon.com: Books and 
Breeding Better Dogs

Claudia Orlandi study at home program: ABCS and PCAM Table of Contents

Robert G Wehle: Snakefoot: The Making of Champion: Robert G. Wehle: 9780913174067: Amazon.com: Books


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## sterregold

Another good article http://www.workingclumber.co.uk/Health Issues/ins_outs_pedigree_analysis long Bell.pdf


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky

I offered to use my own girl's pedigree for teaching, thinking others may not want to use their own. It just now popped into my head that my girl's pedigree isn't "mine", if you know what I mean. I hadn't thought of the breeders that make up my girl's pedigree, who could potentially be upset if someone pointed out something flawed ~ in an open forum. Oops. **

I do have some wonderful golden breeders here in town, so I will also ask if any of them could spend a bit of time with me. I figured if I could learn off of my girl's pedigree, it would translate to all pedigrees....well, the basics anyway, not the specifics. 




goldenjackpuppy said:


> I am interested to see what kind of response you get to this question, if any. I have found that generally breeders are very willing to discuss their own lines and other lines they are familiar with if asked, but I'm not sure they will do it on a public internet forum.


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## hotel4dogs

Shelly, an amazing, informative post. Thanks so much.
Regarding the Faera dogs, people have often come up to me at breed shows and asked me if Tito is a Faera golden. They do have a unique style, and people who have been around goldens for a long time seem to recognize them. At one show I was just tickled beyond words when I met Rhonda Hovan and she asked me if he was "in the family". 
He does have a lot of Faera dogs on both sides of his pedigree, including both Starlight and Trio.


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## Winniesmom

Thank you so much for the post. Too be honest I did not know anything about k9 data etc. when I went looking for a puppy. I got VERY lucky and was steered in the right direction. Now I can look at Wnnies pedigree and make some sense of it..


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Alaska7133

I think our breed is very lucky to have www.k9data.com Without it we wouldn't be able to have a great conversation on this issue. I thank everyone that has taken the time to enter all this information and photographs into the database over the years. For a database that didn't exist before the internet, it's amazing to me how far it has come to record everything it holds. 

I have a trainer that won't look at a golden for training until she sees the pedigree on k9data. It helps her know the dog's "type" before the dog walks in the door. It's just such a helpful database on so many different levels.


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## drofen

Sterregold: 

Thanks for posting that last article--an excellent read. 

Couple of questions about % blood--

As I understand it, values are assigned for each relationship, ie 25% for grandparent, 12.5% for great grand, then 6.25% and so on and so forth. Are the totals strictly cumulative? What if the ancestor in question is in both sire and dam's lines? Would it still be cumulative? 

Also, typically how far back do you read a pedigree when planning a breeding? Back to the foundation dogs? In the example he gives in the article he takes it back 27 gens. 

Lastly, I would imagine there is still a quotient of uncertainty in the results. With your years of experience coupled with pedigree analysis, how certain are you of your results with a new, unique breeding?


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## K9-Design

I will say I remember your dog's great-great-etc grandma CH Asterling's Leaps N Bounds "Morgan." I had just joined MFGRC and can remember taking my puppy to a match. Robin Donahey at the time lived in my area and was always very nice, she went to the same obedience class I did. Anyways "Morgan" was a pretty young puppy at the match and was really really gorgeous. I will always remember that dog. She was very heavily inbred (James bred to his mother) but lived to a ripe old age.

"Knowing your pedigree" ---- wow that is hard, and you won't ever really know everything unless you've owned the dam's side for generations. I am fortunate to know all of Fisher's siblings and many of their offspring, and of course his sire very well, his uncle, a few others. Beyond that I don't know any more than the average person. 

When I got my first golden I constructed this huge pedigree for him, based on books and GRNews magazines, this was waaaaaaay before K9data. I got it out to about 10 generations with very few holes. He was all just asterling on one side and Gold Rush on the other, of course, so easy to track. Now all of those same dogs are in everyone's pedigrees except so far back they're off the 5 gen pedigree page on k9data.

The only thing that I have reservations on "knowing" all this stuff -- how much influence does a dog 5 generations back have? Probably very little. I think you may gain more knowledge of what your dog likely will be or will produce by looking at MANY dogs in CLOSER generations. That is a lot easier to research anyhow. How many grandparents, great-aunts/uncles, cousins, aunts & uncles, siblings, half siblings, etc can you know? What are their unusual characteristics?


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## sterregold

drofen said:


> Sterregold:
> 
> Thanks for posting that last article--an excellent read.
> 
> Couple of questions about % blood--
> 
> As I understand it, values are assigned for each relationship, ie 25% for grandparent, 12.5% for great grand, then 6.25% and so on and so forth. Are the totals strictly cumulative? What if the ancestor in question is in both sire and dam's lines? Would it still be cumulative?
> 
> Also, typically how far back do you read a pedigree when planning a breeding? Back to the foundation dogs? In the example he gives in the article he takes it back 27 gens.
> 
> Lastly, I would imagine there is still a quotient of uncertainty in the results. With your years of experience coupled with pedigree analysis, how certain are you of your results with a new, unique breeding?


It is very complex, and there is an element of uncertainty. The tighter you breed, the higher the predictability. Homozygosity in the genetic coding means that there are more repeated genes which increases the likelihood of a trait being expressed (for good or ill). In Clumbers which are a breed with a smaller population, and a smaller gene pool, you will see more repetition of dogs, and therefore a higher degree of influence. In Goldens there are some very tightly linebred dogs still. When you go back into the history of the breed a bit there were some influential kennels where very intense linebreeding was practised, like Stenbury. They had a very recognizable outline. [The prefix is now used by someone else, who took over the breeding program after Ms. Minter's death in 1995--so look at pre-1995 dogs, and especially her dogs from the 40's to 60's to see how she built her line.] 

It does accumulate when ancestors are repeated. So if a bitch is the grandmother and the great-grandmother there will be a higher contribution. COI does not tell all--influence tables go further into the degree of influence a particular dog has in the pedigree. So when I see a dog repeated over and over again, especially up to the fifth generation, that is a dog I want to investigate. That dog or bitch is having a greater influence because of their concentration in the genetic material. Remember though that each pup in a litter gets half its DNA from each parent--but not necessarily the same half. So that is why you can have variation in a litter, especially if it is more of an outcross. There are a couple of very influential dogs in show lines who are the results of breedings of litter sisters to litter brothers. Despite being double first cousins, they each set a very distinctive style when linebred on, and are associated with different health issues.

You can also get interesting outcomes in litters where there is some loose linebreeding. This is my litter from last spring Pedigree: Sterre Widgeon on The Wing
Each of the parents is the result of a breeding of an English/European pedigree sire, to a bitch from Trowsnest/Celestial lines. In common, they both brought Celestial Sirius Jake along. It has a fairly low COI, and I was actually doing the breeding to set something else up in the next generation, where there is a dog I like, but it did not make sense to take my current girls to him, but it does with Wings. Some of the pups take very much after the Jake part of the pedigree, some show elements of both, and others look super "English" and very much reflect the Camrose that is behind all of that part of the pedigree. The girl I kept, Wings, who is more on the Jake side of things, shows a gene expression that reflects the part of the pedigree I was breeding for in that combination (she is very like her paternal grandmother). Taking her to a male that represents that part of the pedigree down the road will more more likely (not a guarantee) produce similarity there, whereas it would be less likely with her sister who looks very English. The genes being expressed are at least in part an indication of what side of the parents pedigrees their particular gene combination came through. It is more complicated with recessive traits though, because those will not be expressed unless a gene is inherited from both parents--that is often where the interesting little surprises pop up--like a blue-eyed child in a family of brown-eyed siblings from two brown-eyed parents. Brown eyes are dominant in people, so the recessive blue eye gene could be hitching along for some time until the right combination is made and a child gets the blue gene from both parents.


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## HiTideGoldens

K9-Design said:


> The only thing that I have reservations on "knowing" all this stuff -- how much influence does a dog 5 generations back have? Probably very little. I think you may gain more knowledge of what your dog likely will be or will produce by looking at MANY dogs in CLOSER generations. That is a lot easier to research anyhow. How many grandparents, great-aunts/uncles, cousins, aunts & uncles, siblings, half siblings, etc can you know? What are their unusual characteristics?


I agree, although in reviewing genetic influence tables you realize how much a dog that is many generations back can influence a pedigree. For example, in my Kira's pedigree there is a dog who doesn't appear until the 8th generation whose genetic influence is just slighly lower than her grand-sires and grand-dams. It can be a good thing if you like the dog and what the dog produced, or a bad thing if there are characteristics you want to avoid. All of it will be considered if she is ever bred down the road, obviously, but it's really eye opening to see the genetic influence tables.


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## drofen

sterregold said:


> It is very complex, and there is an element of uncertainty. The tighter you breed, the higher the predictability. Homozygosity in the genetic coding means that there are more repeated genes which increases the likelihood of a trait being expressed (for good or ill). In Clumbers which are a breed with a smaller population, and a smaller gene pool, you will see more repetition of dogs, and therefore a higher degree of influence. In Goldens there are some very tightly linebred dogs still. When you go back into the history of the breed a bit there were some influential kennels where very intense linebreeding was practised, like Stenbury. They had a very recognizable outline. [The prefix is now used by someone else, who took over the breeding program after Ms. Minter's death in 1995--so look at pre-1995 dogs, and especially her dogs from the 40's to 60's to see how she built her line.]
> 
> It does accumulate when ancestors are repeated. So if a bitch is the grandmother and the great-grandmother there will be a higher contribution. COI does not tell all--influence tables go further into the degree of influence a particular dog has in the pedigree. So when I see a dog repeated over and over again, especially up to the fifth generation, that is a dog I want to investigate. That dog or bitch is having a greater influence because of their concentration in the genetic material. Remember though that each pup in a litter gets half its DNA from each parent--but not necessarily the same half. So that is why you can have variation in a litter, especially if it is more of an outcross. There are a couple of very influential dogs in show lines who are the results of breedings of litter sisters to litter brothers. Despite being double first cousins, they each set a very distinctive style when linebred on, and are associated with different health issues.
> 
> You can also get interesting outcomes in litters where there is some loose linebreeding. This is my litter from last spring Pedigree: Sterre Widgeon on The Wing
> Each of the parents is the result of a breeding of an English/European pedigree sire, to a bitch from Trowsnest/Celestial lines. In common, they both brought Celestial Sirius Jake along. It has a fairly low COI, and I was actually doing the breeding to set something else up in the next generation, where there is a dog I like, but it did not make sense to take my current girls to him, but it does with Wings. Some of the pups take very much after the Jake part of the pedigree, some show elements of both, and others look super "English" and very much reflect the Camrose that is behind all of that part of the pedigree. The girl I kept, Wings, who is more on the Jake side of things, shows a gene expression that reflects the part of the pedigree I was breeding for in that combination (she is very like her paternal grandmother). Taking her to a male that represents that part of the pedigree down the road will more more likely (not a guarantee) produce similarity there, whereas it would be less likely with her sister who looks very English. The genes being expressed are at least in part an indication of what side of the parents pedigrees their particular gene combination came through. It is more complicated with recessive traits though, because those will not be expressed unless a gene is inherited from both parents--that is often where the interesting little surprises pop up--like a blue-eyed child in a family of brown-eyed siblings from two brown-eyed parents. Brown eyes are dominant in people, so the recessive blue eye gene could be hitching along for some time until the right combination is made and a child gets the blue gene from both parents.


So looking over the pedigree you posted, Celestial Sirius Jake and Trowsnest Wind B'Neath My Wings are both on both sides of the pedigree. They are also both within one generation of each other, with Wind B'Neath My Wings siring the bitch that Sirius Jake is then bred with. Would there have been something that both breeders saw there--an attempt to combine characteristics of Jake and WBMW?

Wow, and then if you look back at both of _those _breedings, Trowsnest Whirlwind is all over the place on both sides. I take it he was/is an influential dog?


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## sterregold

drofen said:


> So looking over the pedigree you posted, Celestial Sirius Jake and Trowsnest Wind B'Neath My Wings are both on both sides of the pedigree. They are also both within one generation of each other, with Wind B'Neath My Wings siring the bitch that Sirius Jake is then bred with. Would there have been something that both breeders saw there--an attempt to combine characteristics of Jake and WBMW?
> 
> Wow, and then if you look back at both of _those _breedings, Trowsnest Whirlwind is all over the place on both sides. I take it he was/is an influential dog?


Yes, and Whirly would be the dog both of those breedings were bringing forward. Jake was himself an outcross, but in each of those breedings, the part that was shared between him and the bitch he was bred to is the common Whirly ancestry. Whirly was a very influential dog who is behind many of the versatile pedigrees now. And himself was a breeding that seemed to be an outcross as his dam was a beautiful show/obedience bitch, and his sire a field trial dog (who just needed a win for his title). But they actually shared Yeo and High Farms lines which is what made the breeding nick.


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## hollyk

sterregold said:


> It is very complex, and there is an element of uncertainty. The tighter you breed, the higher the predictability. Homozygosity in the genetic coding means that there are more repeated genes which increases the likelihood of a trait being expressed (for good or ill). In Clumbers which are a breed with a smaller population, and a smaller gene pool, you will see more repetition of dogs, and therefore a higher degree of influence. In Goldens there are some very tightly linebred dogs still. When you go back into the history of the breed a bit there were some influential kennels where very intense linebreeding was practised, like Stenbury. They had a very recognizable outline. [The prefix is now used by someone else, who took over the breeding program after Ms. Minter's death in 1995--so look at pre-1995 dogs, and especially her dogs from the 40's to 60's to see how she built her line.]
> 
> It does accumulate when ancestors are repeated. So if a bitch is the grandmother and the great-grandmother there will be a higher contribution. COI does not tell all--influence tables go further into the degree of influence a particular dog has in the pedigree. So when I see a dog repeated over and over again, especially up to the fifth generation, that is a dog I want to investigate. That dog or bitch is having a greater influence because of their concentration in the genetic material. Remember though that each pup in a litter gets half its DNA from each parent--but not necessarily the same half. So that is why you can have variation in a litter, especially if it is more of an outcross. There are a couple of very influential dogs in show lines who are the results of breedings of litter sisters to litter brothers. Despite being double first cousins, they each set a very distinctive style when linebred on, and are associated with different health issues.
> 
> You can also get interesting outcomes in litters where there is some loose linebreeding. This is my litter from last spring Pedigree: Sterre Widgeon on The Wing
> Each of the parents is the result of a breeding of an English/European pedigree sire, to a bitch from Trowsnest/Celestial lines. In common, they both brought Celestial Sirius Jake along. It has a fairly low COI, and I was actually doing the breeding to set something else up in the next generation, where there is a dog I like, but it did not make sense to take my current girls to him, but it does with Wings. Some of the pups take very much after the Jake part of the pedigree, some show elements of both, and others look super "English" and very much reflect the Camrose that is behind all of that part of the pedigree. The girl I kept, Wings, who is more on the Jake side of things, shows a gene expression that reflects the part of the pedigree I was breeding for in that combination (she is very like her paternal grandmother). Taking her to a male that represents that part of the pedigree down the road will more more likely (not a guarantee) produce similarity there, whereas it would be less likely with her sister who looks very English. The genes being expressed are at least in part an indication of what side of the parents pedigrees their particular gene combination came through. It is more complicated with recessive traits though, because those will not be expressed unless a gene is inherited from both parents--that is often where the interesting little surprises pop up--like a blue-eyed child in a family of brown-eyed siblings from two brown-eyed parents. Brown eyes are dominant in people, so the recessive blue eye gene could be hitching along for some time until the right combination is made and a child gets the blue gene from both parents.


Thanks Shelly, it is always enlighting to me when you start talking pedigrees.

Another dog I see in both sides of your Wings pedigree is Pedigree: Am. CH Elysian Sky Hi Dubl Exposure UDT MH ** WCX VCX DDHF OS.
I often see this dog when I'm researching versatile pedigrees.


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## drofen

sterregold said:


> Yes, and Whirly would be the dog both of those breedings were bringing forward. Jake was himself an outcross, but in each of those breedings, the part that was shared between him and the bitch he was bred to is the common Whirly ancestry. Whirly was a very influential dog who is behind many of the versatile pedigrees now. And himself was a breeding that seemed to be an outcross as his dam was a beautiful show/obedience bitch, and his sire a field trial dog (who just needed a win for his title). But they actually shared Yeo and High Farms lines which is what made the breeding nick.


Excellent, you made my day! I love learning new stuff, and then trying to apply it. :wave:

So to properly evaluate a pedigree, you not only have to understand genetics, but also have a background knowledge of who the animals are and what phenotypical and genotypical traits they have available as a "genetic resource".


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## hollyk

hollyk said:


> Thanks Shelly, it is always enlighting to me when you start talking pedigrees.
> 
> Another dog I see in both sides of your Wings pedigree is Pedigree: Am. CH Elysian Sky Hi Dubl Exposure UDT MH ** WCX VCX DDHF OS.
> I often see this dog when I'm researching versatile pedigrees.


Wait, I get it now he is a Whirley grandson, I must have been not taking those pedigrees back far enough. :doh:


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## Alaska7133

The nice part about K9data is not just looking at the COI, but also at the offspring list of those dogs you are interested from the past. Here's the offspring list of Elysian Sky Hi Dubl Exposure: Offspring of Am. CH Elysian Sky Hi Dubl Exposure UDT MH ** WCX VCX DDHF OS
It's an amazing list of dogs with wonderful accomplishments. K9data has done such a great service for us keeping all this data for easy access. You can also look at siblings too.


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## annef

Sterre Widgeon on The Wing
See she goes back to my dogs way back! Annef


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## sterregold

annef said:


> Sterre Widgeon on The Wing
> See she goes back to my dogs way back! Annef


Yes! Thanks to breeders like Marge, and Carole, and Karin who have either bred to nice UK and European dogs, or imported them, I have been able to incorporate some really lovely dogs. I like a well-made dog that wants to hunt, and these sort of combinations seem to bring that out for me.


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## K9-Design

hollyk said:


> Thanks Shelly, it is always enlighting to me when you start talking pedigrees.
> 
> Another dog I see in both sides of your Wings pedigree is Pedigree: Am. CH Elysian Sky Hi Dubl Exposure UDT MH ** WCX VCX DDHF OS.
> I often see this dog when I'm researching versatile pedigrees.


Expo is Fisher's great-grandpa -- the first time Jeanne von Barby saw Fisher she said Wow he looks like Yogi crossed with Expo....um, well, you got it!


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## drofen

So looking at Maxwell's pedigree: Five generation pedigree: Rocket x Chloe

I'm seeing heavy influence by Rush Hill dogs, especially Rush Hill's Haagen-Daz. And lots of Summit dogs, especially Summit's Goldstorm Moving Picture. 

Can anyone with more experience tell me about these breeders and dogs in particular? Feel free PM me if you feel like you don't want to post in the open forum.


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## hollyk

Any other thoughts to dogs used in versatile pedigrees?


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## Ljilly28

Maxwell has a pedigree very similar to my Copley on his dad's side. Because both Bistro and Mojo passed away on the younger side, it is nice to see Hobo there who lived a very long healthy life. I am not sure about Maxwell's mom's side, as those are less familiar lines to me. I think of the Summit dogs as having good longevity.


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## Ljilly28

hotel4dogs said:


> Shelly, an amazing, informative post. Thanks so much.
> Regarding the Faera dogs, people have often come up to me at breed shows and asked me if Tito is a Faera golden. They do have a unique style, and people who have been around goldens for a long time seem to recognize them. At one show I was just tickled beyond words when I met Rhonda Hovan and she asked me if he was "in the family".
> He does have a lot of Faera dogs on both sides of his pedigree, including both Starlight and Trio.



For me personally, Pete, Faera-Tainish PDQ is the ultimate bitch in my mind's eye- my dream. Pedigree: Ch. Faera-Tainsh PDQ SDHF OD


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## Golden:)

Ljilly28 said:


> Maxwell has a pedigree very similar to my Copley on his dad's side. Because both Bistro and Mojo passed away on the younger side, it is nice to see Hobo there who lived a very long healthy life. I am not sure about Maxwell's mom's side, as those are less familiar lines to me. I think of the Summit dogs as having good longevity.


I'm not familiar with Hobo, (atleast his call name) could you give me his registered name? Thanks, Golden


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## sterregold

hollyk said:


> Any other thoughts to dogs used in versatile pedigrees?


Quar, Bainin, Whirly, Expo, Jake, Yogi, Sabre are all common in a lot of versatile pedigrees (and mostly connected!) One who I think does not get mentioned as much as some is Strad (Jazzmin Pebwin's Xtravaganz)--he is my Win's grandfather, and also behind most of the Morningstar Goldens. Colabaugh has also produced some very good looking, good working dogs. Buzz is another neat dog (Honeybee's Swarm Warning).


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## JeffP

Golden:) said:


> I'm not familiar with Hobo, (atleast his call name) could you give me his registered name? Thanks, Golden


Pedigree: BIS BISS Am Ch. Summits MR. Bojangles OS SDHF

Hobo is Kirby's (as well as a LOT of other dogs) grandpa


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## problemcat

Shelley/Sterregold, Thank you for all the information. That was fantastic.


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## hollyk

Another kennel name I see lot in this type of pedigree is Beckwith.


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## my4goldens

sterregold said:


> Quar, Bainin, Whirly, Expo, Jake, Yogi, Sabre are all common in a lot of versatile pedigrees (and mostly connected!) One who I think does not get mentioned as much as some is Strad (Jazzmin Pebwin's Xtravaganz)--he is my Win's grandfather, and also behind most of the Morningstar Goldens. Colabaugh has also produced some very good looking, good working dogs. Buzz is another neat dog (Honeybee's Swarm Warning).


My Raider is a great grandson of Strad. 

Pedigree: U-CD U-RO1 Morningstar Treasure Eye'L CDX RA CGC/TDI


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## sterregold

my4goldens said:


> My Raider is a great grandson of Strad.
> 
> Pedigree: U-CD U-RO1 Morningstar Treasure Eye'L CDX RA CGC/TDI


Your Raider's grandma Winnie, was aunt to my Win. Ginnie won the Nan Gordon Trophy (the GRCC National Specialty versatility trophy) with her Winnie at a GRCC national, and I also won it with my Win. So we always joke about our Nan Gordon Winnies. The first time the dogs met in person we introduced them--"Winnie, this is Win who won the Nan Gordon. --Win this is Winnie, who won the Nan Gordon." Silly, but our respective Winnie's who won the trophy are why are friends now!


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky

Soooooo.....(LOL), getting back to my original post. I would like to understand what is meant by "lines" or what is meant when a breeder says "I know my lines", etc. This confuses me. Using drofen's Maxwell puppy's pedigree that was offered up in a post, I wrote down all the kennel names used in his 5-generation pedigree:

Goldenwind, Mariner, Gracious Golds, JBG, Maplegrove, Summit, Trouchstone, Treasure, Pebwin, Cynazar, Birnamwoods, Chuckanut, Braemal, Wind Dance, Twin Beau-D, Goodtime, Rush Hill, Faragold, Beacon Hill, Golden Pine, Goldstorm, Sheffield-Ducat, Sunshine Hill, Edgecombe, Gemstar, Sassafras, Cherrybrook, Rockhill. 

These are all "lines"?? If so, how is it possible for anyone to know ALL these "Lines" in a dog's pedigree? I think I must be not understanding pedigrees.

Feel free to go back and use my girl's pedigree to teach me what "lines" are....not what each dog or kennel was like, just what a line is. Thanks!


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## HiTideGoldens

I think what they mean is they know the pedigree behind their dogs and know what is typical of that pedigree. For instance if they are typically late bloomers, or don't combine well with another line, etc. Certainly if a breeding is an outcross that predictability would be less apparent. But that (from my understanding) is why you try to breed phenotypically similar dogs when outcrossing. 


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky

So, in Bella's pedigree she has the following kennel names:

Eagle Ridge
Gold-Rush
Rush Hill
Sunbeam
Misty Ridge
Amberwood
Goldenbear
Pelcorp
Treasure
Casadeloro
Bearhill
Twin Beau-D
Amberwood
Amberac
Highmark
Birnam Woods
Asterling
Lovejoy
Keane
Tuxedo
Aspenglo
Sunshine Hill
Heelmark
Goldentown
Westben

That is 24 different kennel names in Bella's pedigree. Are you saying a breeder who claims to know my girl's lines (just an example) would know all 24 of them? Each kennel name is a "Line"?


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## drofen

KatieBlue'sMidnightSky said:


> So, in Bella's pedigree she has the following kennel names:
> 
> Eagle Ridge
> Gold-Rush
> Rush Hill
> Sunbeam
> Misty Ridge
> Amberwood
> Goldenbear
> Pelcorp
> Treasure
> Casadeloro
> Bearhill
> Twin Beau-D
> Amberwood
> Amberac
> Highmark
> Birnam Woods
> Asterling
> Lovejoy
> Keane
> Tuxedo
> Aspenglo
> Sunshine Hill
> Heelmark
> Goldentown
> Westben
> 
> That is 24 different kennel names in Bella's pedigree. Are you saying a breeder who claims to know my girl's lines (just an example) would know all 24 of them? Each kennel name is a "Line"?


From what I understand, there are certain highly influential dogs that create distinct "lines" identifiable by certain traits--coat, head, ability etc. 

I think some of the confusion comes from being somewhat of an outsider still. I noted in one of my posts above I think, that really to understand what a pedigree _really_ means, we have to have insider knowledge of which dogs are influential, which kennels have taken breeding stock from those "lines" to continue them. I just don't know enough of the lay of the land.

For example, with people: If someone is new to the country, maybe they wouldn't recognize that the Kennedy's are one of the big name families in the US, or Rockefeller, etc. Make sense?


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## HiTideGoldens

No, that's not what I mean. I sincerely doubt that all 24 of those pedigrees contribute heavily into Bella's pedigree. There are probably a couple of them that have a higher genetic influence, and it would be particular dogs usually from each kennel, not every dog that happens to have that kennel name in front of it. So the breeder who "knows the line" would know how the pedigrees combine and what may compliment Bella's pedigree based on the dogs and lines in the pedigree. 

For example, I am interested to see how Smooch's half-sister's breeding to a particular dog turns out if it is done later this year. I am also interested to see the results of a breeding of Kira's paternal aunt to a dog I am interested in using with her down the road. Another cousin of Kira's (on her dam's side) will be bred to him as well. I want to see how the pedigrees combine and if they end up being successful breedings, in terms of improving what I would like to eventually improve on each of my girls down the road. Kira's pedigree is a little unique, in that, her dam was tightly line-bred, but Kira is more of an outcross. So I am especially interested to see how each side of her pedigree combines with the dog I am interested in, in hopes there will not be any huge surprises if she is bred to him. Her "line" is not as predictable because she is more of an outcross, although she very much resembles her dam, physically. She also has a lot of traits from her sire's side of the pedigree as well. 

I think understanding the genetic influence of dogs in a pedigree may help you. I know it really helped me understand pedigrees more once I was able to look at a couple. Linda Bell runs tables (it's not very expensive) if you contact her maybe she could run one on Bella.


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## sterregold

A line possesses more of the distinctive characteristics that make it stand out--so not every kennel has a line yet (or in some cases ever). There are a lot of newer kennels who are essentially building on what some of those influential kennels have done, and as a result the dogs retain a look that is very like that line which is their foundation. And you do not get a true line of your own unless you have a set goal and vision in mind that you are breeding towards. I would not for instance, claim to have a line of my own at this point. I am only two generations into my own breeding and still moving towards my goals. But there are lines--Trowsnest, Kyon, Belvedere, and further back, Holway, Yeo--which are strongly developed lines, and the foundation of what I am working on. So I do not have a line myself _per se_ at this point, but these are the lines I use and need to know in my breeding.


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky

Genetic tables!!! That's it! How much genetic influence there is and by what dog...or what lines. Excellent! Now that makes total sense! From there, one could then study what attributes those dogs had that might influence my girl. yeah!!! I knew if I stuck in there and kept pushing until I felt I got an answer that made sense, I would be rewarded. hahaha! Being so new to this all, it is quite confusing. There is so much more than just looking at a pedigree on paper. Do breeders typically go through all this when deciding to breed? I don't plan to breed Bella, but I'm going through this as an exercise to learn what it's like. If I were ever to breed some other dog down the road, I think it's so much more than clearances, and longevity, etc, and I'd personally want to do lots and lots of homework. Wow! So much to figure out before you even think about breeding!! 



goldenjackpuppy said:


> No, that's not what I mean. I sincerely doubt that all 24 of those pedigrees contribute heavily into Bella's pedigree. There are probably a couple of them that have a higher genetic influence, and it would be particular dogs usually from each kennel, not every dog that happens to have that kennel name in front of it. So the breeder who "knows the line" would know how the pedigrees combine and what may compliment Bella's pedigree based on the dogs and lines in the pedigree.
> 
> For example, I am interested to see how Smooch's half-sister's breeding to a particular dog turns out if it is done later this year. I am also interested to see the results of a breeding of Kira's paternal aunt to a dog I am interested in using with her down the road. Another cousin of Kira's (on her dam's side) will be bred to him as well. I want to see how the pedigrees combine and if they end up being successful breedings, in terms of improving what I would like to eventually improve on each of my girls down the road. Kira's pedigree is a little unique, in that, her dam was tightly line-bred, but Kira is more of an outcross. So I am especially interested to see how each side of her pedigree combines with the dog I am interested in, in hopes there will not be any huge surprises if she is bred to him. Her "line" is not as predictable because she is more of an outcross, although she very much resembles her dam, physically. She also has a lot of traits from her sire's side of the pedigree as well.
> 
> I think understanding the genetic influence of dogs in a pedigree may help you. I know it really helped me understand pedigrees more once I was able to look at a couple. Linda Bell runs tables (it's not very expensive) if you contact her maybe she could run one on Bella.


----------



## sterregold

goldenjackpuppy said:


> For example, I am interested to see how Smooch's half-sister's breeding to a particular dog turns out if it is done later this year. I am also interested to see the results of a breeding of Kira's paternal aunt to a dog I am interested in using with her down the road. Another cousin of Kira's (on her dam's side) will be bred to him as well. I want to see how the pedigrees combine and if they end up being successful breedings, in terms of improving what I would like to eventually improve on each of my girls down the road. Kira's pedigree is a little unique, in that, her dam was tightly line-bred, but Kira is more of an outcross. So I am especially interested to see how each side of her pedigree combines with the dog I am interested in, in hopes there will not be any huge surprises if she is bred to him. Her "line" is not as predictable because she is more of an outcross, although she very much resembles her dam, physically. She also has a lot of traits from her sire's side of the pedigree as well.


I would say that because your girl is an outcross, her pedigree really reflects lineS rather than a line, in this case. Her dam, being tightly line-bred, will show a stronger line influence.


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky

Ok, now this makes sense too. So, there are probably a few influential lines in Bella's pedigree (simply using her as an example), and not ALL the kennels are (key word) 'established' lines bred over time in a very planned and executed breeding program. Hmmm.... 

Could one say that because there are so many other non-established lines, say in Bella's pedigree, that the established lines have been diluted...and possible quite diluted, to the point she doesn't really have any line left? She's a mish-mash versus having any true line? (Please....I hope no one takes offense to this verbiage ~ I just lack knowledge to use any other. I don't want to look like I am picking on my own girl either... I love her to the moon and back, but she is my little 'case study') **



sterregold said:


> A line possesses more of the distinctive characteristics that make it stand out--so not every kennel has a line yet (or in some cases ever). There are a lot of newer kennels who are essentially building on what some of those influential kennels have done, and as a result the dogs retain a look that is very like that line which is their foundation. And you do not get a true line of your own unless you have a set goal and vision in mind that you are breeding towards. I would not for instance, claim to have a line of my own at this point. I am only two generations into my own breeding and still moving towards my goals. But there are lines--Trowsnest, Kyon, Belvedere, and further back, Holway, Yeo--which are strongly developed lines, and the foundation of what I am working on. So I do not have a line myself _per se_ at this point, but these are the lines I use and need to know in my breeding.


----------



## sterregold

KatieBlue'sMidnightSky said:


> Genetic tables!!! That's it! How much genetic influence there is and by what dog...or what lines. Excellent! Now that makes total sense! From there, one could then study what attributes those dogs had that might influence my girl. yeah!!! I knew if I stuck in there and kept pushing until I felt I got an answer that made sense, I would be rewarded. hahaha! Being so new to this all, it is quite confusing. There is so much more than just looking at a pedigree on paper. Do breeders typically go through all this when deciding to breed? I don't plan to breed Bella, but I'm going through this as an exercise to learn what it's like. If I were ever to breed some other dog down the road, I think it's so much more than clearances, and longevity, etc, and I'd personally want to do lots and lots of homework. Wow! So much to figure out before you even think about breeding!!


Some breeders do--and they are the ones that eventually develop a clear line, and have very consistent production of type (conformation and/or performance characteristics) from generation to generation, typically. They will actually seek out pedigrees that allow them to increase the influence of a particular dog if he or she is known for producing what they are seeking to enhance. When a dog is sought merely because he and or his offspring have done a lot of winning, then it can be more of a case of the line coming through despite the breeder's knowledge (or lack thereof). That is something I see more often in newer breeders who got their first dog, got a CH on it and decided to breed, but have not been around long enough to really be informed about the good, bad, and ugly in the pedigree. Sometimes they make a combination that works, and they look at the characteristics they liked in the stud dog they chose and put the results down to him, rather than particular dogs behind him.


----------



## HiTideGoldens

sterregold said:


> I would say that because your girl is an outcross, her pedigree really reflects lineS rather than a line, in this case. Her dam, being tightly line-bred, will show a stronger line influence.


Yes, definitely, totally agree. That's why I put the word in quotes although I probably didn't articulate that as well as I could have. I want to see how each side of her pedigree (i.e. each line) combines with the particular dog so I have some predictability if she is ever bred to him. I certainly don't have a "line" as I've never bred anything, and even Smooch and Kira's breeder doesn't really have a "line" as hers is really an offshoot of another breeder's line. I agree with your comment above that developing a "line" is more than just breeding a few litters. The breeders I think of with "lines" are ones that have been doing it for a very very long time... if a newer breeder talked about their "line" I would think they sounded a bit big for their britches


----------



## sterregold

KatieBlue'sMidnightSky said:


> Ok, now this makes sense too. So, there are probably a few influential lines in Bella's pedigree (simply using her as an example), and not ALL the kennels are (key word) 'established' lines bred over time in a very planned and executed breeding program. Hmmm....
> 
> Could one say that because there are so many other non-established lines, say in Bella's pedigree, that the established lines have been diluted...and possible quite diluted, to the point she doesn't really have any line left? She's a mish-mash versus having any true line? (Please....I hope no one takes offense to this verbiage ~ I just lack knowledge to use any other. I don't want to look like I am picking on my own girl either... I love her to the moon and back, but she is my little 'case study') **


There is a VERY distinct Asterling influence in her pedigree, particularly through her sire's side of the pedigree. Aruba is present there in through a couple of her very influential breedings, including one where she was bred back to her own son, Gunnar, and offspring of that were then bred to gradchildren from another of her breedings. So with him being so linebred, the fact that the dam is more dilute for her Aruba was a sensible direction to go. But even there, the Asterling dogs also go back to Charlie, as does the dam line--so even though the appear disparate up front, their foundations are shared--you can see that reflected in the rising COI from gen 10 to gen 12. For instance, although your girls COI, and the GI of the top five contributors in her pedigree does not appear overwhelming, were you to breed her to a dog linebred on Aruba, then you would have a very tightly bred pedigree in those offspring.

If you are thinking of breeding down the line, this is precisely the sort of knowledge you need to build. Who are those dogs of influence, and what do they bring with them? How are you seeing that influence expresses in your dog? What would you want to intensify or eliminate about those characteristcs? (because if you linebreed on a dog prepotent for a trait you want to eliminate, good luck!!!)


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky

I see. Now I can understand more clearly what the breeder/judge at our last specialty was trying to tell me. She was emphasizing pedigree, pedigree, pedigree; looking at how the pedigrees go together, versus looking at the "stud dog de jour" and considering him just because you think he might correct this or that in your bitch, and he's popular. I'm sure she meant so much more, but I have to break it down into pieces to understand.


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky

Thanks ladies, for hanging in there with me. I think I am just beginning to understand, and I really appreciate you sticking in there until I did begin to understand. I can guarantee I will have many, many more questions. Even if I never breed, I still love to learn!


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## HiTideGoldens

It is VERY hard to learn. I am lucky to have a few people who are helping me and pointing out the weakenesses and strengths in my dogs' pedigrees in order to make the best potential breeding decisions if either girl is ever bred. I am still in the learning mode too, but it's good to do it well in advance because there is so much information to get through. Bear in mind, Kira is not even 18 months old and Smooch just turned a year old. I am planning waaaaaaaaaaay ahead, but I want to know which direction I'm comfortable with going with both of them if they are bred in order to produce the style of dog I like, but also ensure that I am doing everything I can to produce the healthiest and soundest puppies possible as well.

FWIW, the dogs I am considering are not the popular sires in this area (or in the country)....and not really very convenient to breed to, to be honest. But I am more concerned about finding the right dog (pedigree wise and structurally) than the cost and convenience factors. And obviously I'm a planner, these will be breedings where I will keep a puppy, so these breedings (even if both girls are finished) will not be happening for at least a couple of years


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## sterregold

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Yes, definitely, totally agree. That's why I put the word in quotes although I probably didn't articulate that as well as I could have. I want to see how each side of her pedigree (i.e. each line) combines with the particular dog so I have some predictability if she is ever bred to him. I certainly don't have a "line" as I've never bred anything, and even Smooch and Kira's breeder doesn't really have a "line" as hers is really an offshoot of another breeder's line. I agree with your comment above that developing a "line" is more than just breeding a few litters. The breeders I think of with "lines" are ones that have been doing it for a very very long time... if a newer breeder talked about their "line" I would think they sounded a bit big for their britches


And that kind of observation is very useful. It is also where knowing that dog and what is behind him is bringing through the characteristics expressed in each combination. If the resulting pups from the litters are not very consistent, then it may make more sense to go to one of the dogs behind him, who has the characteristics that the pups you liked from those breedings possess.


----------



## HiTideGoldens

sterregold said:


> And that kind of observation is very useful. It is also where knowing that dog and what is behind him is bringing through the characteristics expressed in each combination. If the resulting pups from the litters are not very consistent, then it may make more sense to go to one of the dogs behind him, who has the characteristics that the pups you liked from those breedings possess.


I am definitely considering that as well. The ultimate dog for me is 14 and not being bred anymore, but he produced what I need for Kira - more leg, stronger rear -and is the overall style that I like. The boy I am interested in (his grandson) has a son who is only a year old right now, and he was line-bred on the dog who consistently produced what I need for Kira. The grandson (who I mentioned initially) is still a very nice option, pedigree wise and structurally - especially given what he has produced thus far in his puppies. (Although it remains to be seen how he combines with each side of Kira's pedigree.) Ideally though, if that one year old pup turns out, I will breed to the him since he is the "most" of the dog I think would be best for her (the dog is the grandfather on one side and great grandfather on the other side of the pedigree). Plus the fact that he was fairly tightly line-bred ups the chances that the resulting puppies will be heavily influenced by that one dog and give me what I am hoping to get from breeding to that line. If that makes any sense at all...


----------



## drofen

sterregold said:


> Some breeders do--and they are the ones that eventually develop a clear line, and have very consistent production of type (conformation and/or performance characteristics) from generation to generation, typically. They will actually seek out pedigrees that allow them to increase the influence of a particular dog if he or she is known for producing what they are seeking to enhance. When a dog is sought merely because he and or his offspring have done a lot of winning, then it can be more of a case of the line coming through despite the breeder's knowledge (or lack thereof). That is something I see more often in newer breeders who got their first dog, got a CH on it and decided to breed, but have not been around long enough to really be informed about the good, bad, and ugly in the pedigree. Sometimes they make a combination that works, and they look at the characteristics they liked in the stud dog they chose and put the results down to him, rather than particular dogs behind him.


 So is there a resource out there, a sort of Who's Who in the Golden world where a newcomer like myself could begin to learn which lines are known for what? Or can that only come from hanging around and absorbing osmotically?


----------



## sterregold

KatieBlue'sMidnightSky said:


> I see. Now I can understand more clearly what the breeder/judge at our last specialty was trying to tell me. She was emphasizing pedigree, pedigree, pedigree; looking at how the pedigrees go together, versus looking at the "stud dog de jour" and considering him just because you think he might correct this or that in your bitch, and he's popular. I'm sure she meant so much more, but I have to break it down into pieces to understand.


That is precisely what that judge was getting at.


----------



## HiTideGoldens

drofen said:


> So is there a resource out there, a sort of Who's Who in the Golden world where a newcomer like myself could begin to learn which lines are known for what? Or can that only come from hanging around and absorbing osmotically?


Unfortunately that doesn't exist. If it did I would be the first one lining up to buy it! 

Honestly, even hanging around doesn't really get you there. You have to do your homework so that breeders know you aren't just looking for the hot gossip when asking about pedigrees. Most will only start to help you once they realize you are trying to learn and use the knowledge you have to help the breed, versus trying to dig up dirt to spread around. I have a couple people who are very honest with me, since I'm still a total newbie to all of this, and I'm lucky they are so honest and willing to help.


----------



## sterregold

drofen said:


> So is there a resource out there, a sort of Who's Who in the Golden world where a newcomer like myself could begin to learn which lines are known for what? Or can that only come from hanging around and absorbing osmotically?


Join the GRCA affiliate club in your area. Go to every meeting. Help out at every event. Attach yourself to the breeders in the club who work with the lines you find yourself drawn to, and who produce consistent typey puppies. If you consistently find your eye drawn to dogs who have a certain kennel as the basis of their pedigree, then you need to seek that person's mentorship--but they will not likely be willing to give it unless they see through the work you are doing that you are serious and committed! Some will not be as willing to talk to new people as others, so you have to keep working at it until you find someone whose dogs you like, and whose ethics you respect. If the breeder of your own dog is willing to guide you, (and they fit those descriptors!) that is a good place to start as well. I would start by asking what they LIKE about those key dogs in the pedigree, and what they bring to the mix. Talking on strengths is always a good place to start. Then when show commitment, people will be more willing to discuss the harder stuff. Most are not willing to discuss this right off the bat because of some of the finger-pointing and witch-hunting that goes on (which you can sometimes see in a thread where someone has a puppy with a problem, and flames the breeder for it).


----------



## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky

Robert~ Have you joined our local club? DFW Metro Golden Retriever Club. I joined about a year and half ago. There are some wonderful long time breeders in our club, and I've also thoroughly enjoyed talking to breeders long distance too, that I've been drawn to. I am trying to learn as much as I can from many different sources, yet it's so nice to have some good breed friends local too. 

If you are on FB, there are some great breed groups on there too. There are people from all over the world sharing thoughts, ideas & tips ~ all Golden related. One is called 'Golden Retriever Discussion Group'. It can be a time sucker, lol, but it really is nice having so many resources out there to learn from.


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## my4goldens

sterregold said:


> Your Raider's grandma Winnie, was aunt to my Win. Ginnie won the Nan Gordon Trophy (the GRCC National Specialty versatility trophy) with her Winnie at a GRCC national, and I also won it with my Win. So we always joke about our Nan Gordon Winnies. The first time the dogs met in person we introduced them--"Winnie, this is Win who won the Nan Gordon. --Win this is Winnie, who won the Nan Gordon." Silly, but our respective Winnie's who won the trophy are why are friends now!


Oh how funny !! I feel very fortunate to having had the privilege of owning one of Ginnie's dogs. Raider has been a phenomenal dog, and I have adored him from the moment I laid eyes on him, and he, me. We drove all the way from Illinois to pick him up out east and back. And Ginnie has been a fantastic breeder, always supportive and helpful, even now with Raider's diagnosis of PU, she wants to be kept informed of how he is doing.


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## CarolinaCasey

drofen said:


> So is there a resource out there, a sort of Who's Who in the Golden world where a newcomer like myself could begin to learn which lines are known for what? Or can that only come from hanging around and absorbing osmotically?


Become a sponge.  Set up at shows with your club buddies, breeders, and mentor. Bring them food and talk dogs. Oh, and start clicking around k9data and learn how the influential dogs are related. Lots of big dogs that were very influential to the breed were half siblings, littermates, etc and you need to be able to pick up on these things. I think "knowing your lines" also means knowing how the "big" dogs in the breeds' history fit together, how they are related, etc. and where their appear in your pedigrees. Knowing the history of the breed and some of the older dogs of influence will help you more about your dog and the 'lines' they come from. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## drofen

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Unfortunately that doesn't exist. If it did I would be the first one lining up to buy it!
> 
> Honestly, even hanging around doesn't really get you there. You have to do your homework so that breeders know you aren't just looking for the hot gossip when asking about pedigrees. Most will only start to help you once they realize you are trying to learn and use the knowledge you have to help the breed, versus trying to dig up dirt to spread around. I have a couple people who are very honest with me, since I'm still a total newbie to all of this, and I'm lucky they are so honest and willing to help.


Yeah, no taste for the drama here.



sterregold said:


> Join the GRCA affiliate club in your area. Go to every meeting. Help out at every event. Attach yourself to the breeders in the club who work with the lines you find yourself drawn to, and who produce consistent typey puppies. If you consistently find your eye drawn to dogs who have a certain kennel as the basis of their pedigree, then you need to seek that person's mentorship--but they will not likely be willing to give it unless they see through the work you are doing that you are serious and committed! Some will not be as willing to talk to new people as others, so you have to keep working at it until you find someone whose dogs you like, and whose ethics you respect. If the breeder of your own dog is willing to guide you, (and they fit those descriptors!) that is a good place to start as well. I would start by asking what they LIKE about those key dogs in the pedigree, and what they bring to the mix. Talking on strengths is always a good place to start. Then when show commitment, people will be more willing to discuss the harder stuff. Most are not willing to discuss this right off the bat because of some of the finger-pointing and witch-hunting that goes on (which you can sometimes see in a thread where someone has a puppy with a problem, and flames the breeder for it).


Great advice, thank you!



CarolinaCasey said:


> Become a sponge.  Set up at shows with your club buddies, breeders, and mentor. Bring them food and talk dogs. Oh, and start clicking around k9data and learn how the influential dogs are related. Lots of big dogs that were very influential to the breed were half siblings, littermates, etc and you need to be able to pick up on these things. I think "knowing your lines" also means knowing how the "big" dogs in the breeds' history fit together, how they are related, etc. and where their appear in your pedigrees. Knowing the history of the breed and some of the older dogs of influence will help you more about your dog and the 'lines' they come from.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thank you!



KatieBlue'sMidnightSky said:


> Robert~ Have you joined our local club? DFW Metro Golden Retriever Club. I joined about a year and half ago. There are some wonderful long time breeders in our club, and I've also thoroughly enjoyed talking to breeders long distance too, that I've been drawn to. I am trying to learn as much as I can from many different sources, yet it's so nice to have some good breed friends local too.
> 
> If you are on FB, there are some great breed groups on there too. There are people from all over the world sharing thoughts, ideas & tips ~ all Golden related. One is called 'Golden Retriever Discussion Group'. It can be a time sucker, lol, but it really is nice having so many resources out there to learn from.


No I haven't yet. I need to do so, but we haven't been allowed in public (Maxwell and I) until just a couple weeks ago. Actually, if you ask my wife, we probably still aren't.  

I'm kind of nervous about joining. I'm sure they're all very nice people, but my Maxwell comes from a kennel that might be controversial among the old guard. Pure politics.  Just not looking forward to the inevitable conversations, LOL!


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## Portia1224

hotel4dogs said:


> Shelly, an amazing, informative post. Thanks so much.
> Regarding the Faera dogs, people have often come up to me at breed shows and asked me if Tito is a Faera golden. They do have a unique style, and people who have been around goldens for a long time seem to recognize them. At one show I was just tickled beyond words when I met Rhonda Hovan and she asked me if he was "in the family".
> He does have a lot of Faera dogs on both sides of his pedigree, including both Starlight and Trio.


Could you (or others) describe the distinctive Faera "look" a little more? My Willow has several prominent Faera dogs in her background, and I'm curious to see if she fits the mold. For the curious, there are tons of pictures of her here on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/willow.somin?fref=ts


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## sterregold

Take a look at these dogs as an example and note the consistencies. Even across several decades of breeding you can tell these dogs are related.

Pedigree: BIS BISS Am. CH Faera's The Story Of My Life OS SDHF
Pedigree: BISS Am. Ch. Faera's Starlight OS
Pedigree: Am CH Faera's Puppy Kidd OD
Pedigree: Am. CH Faera's Playin' For Keeps OS
Pedigree: BISS AM CAN CH Faera's Front Page Story SDHF
Pedigree: Multi BIS, BISS. Can. Th. Ch. Faera's Be A Star At GoldenArmy


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## drofen

sterregold said:


> Take a look at these dogs as an example and note the consistencies. Even across several decades of breeding you can tell these dogs are related.
> 
> Pedigree: BIS BISS Am. CH Faera's The Story Of My Life OS SDHF
> Pedigree: BISS Am. Ch. Faera's Starlight OS
> Pedigree: Am CH Faera's Puppy Kidd OD
> Pedigree: Am. CH Faera's Playin' For Keeps OS
> Pedigree: BISS AM CAN CH Faera's Front Page Story SDHF
> Pedigree: Multi BIS, BISS. Can. Th. Ch. Faera's Be A Star At GoldenArmy


I see big time similarities between these dogs. If I had to pick odd ones out, I'd say that Puppy Kidd and Be a Star At GoldenArmy were the ones furthest from the Faera type? Would you agree?


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## sterregold

Kidd was a very early dog in the program, but is behind most Faera dogs since then. With Starlight, I would say it is a bit of an illusion created by the angle the picture is taken on--his outline is very much like the other boys. He is darker than some of the others, but his outline and head characteristics are very similar.


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## drofen

sterregold said:


> Kidd was a very early dog in the program, but is behind most Faera dogs since then. With Starlight, I would say it is a bit of an illusion created by the angle the picture is taken on--his outline is very much like the other boys. He is darker than some of the others, but his outline and head characteristics are very similar.


It makes sense that Kidd looks a little different.

To me Starlight's neck sloping into his withers and shoulders isn't quite the same. But it may very well be the angle as you said. He definitely has the head though.


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## MikaTallulah

*Off topic I am sure....*

A pedigree can start off pretty darn good and within a few generations be ruined by misbreeding and poor management.

Buddy has well known kennels 5 generations back yet he ended up coming from Amish County, PA.- No doubt a puppy mill of sorts. Five generation pedigree: GOLDWIN's Buddy Got Wiser CGC

Lucky also has well known kennels within 5 generations of him but he was well over standard for height and weight (120 pounds) Five generation pedigree: Sir Lucky Goldwin of Cold Springs


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## sterregold

In each of those cases there is only one really well known line present. Buddy has dogs from one well known field line, and the CHs way back on the sire side are not from a well known kennel. Lucky has the same dog back in both parents, but the rest of the pedigree is so disparate and dilute that there would not really be predictability there. 

It does demonstrate however why so many good breeders are so reluctant to sell a dog on full registration. A dog can end up in the hands of someone who allows it to be used by people who should not be breeding, and any evidence of their hard work disappears in a few generations. A well developed, good performing line can quickly be negated by indiscriminate breeding done without regard to phenotype or genotype.


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## MikaTallulah

sterregold said:


> In each of those cases the is only one really well known line present. Buddy has dogs from one well known field line, and the CHs way back on the sire side are not from a well known kennel. Lucky has the same dog back in both parents, but the rest of the pedigree is so disparate and dilute that there would not really be predictability there.
> 
> It does demonstrate however why so many good breeders are so reluctant to sell a dog on full registration. A dog can end up in the hands of someone who allows it to be used by people who should not be breeding, and any evidence of their hard work disappears in a few gelatinous. A well developed, good performing line can quickly be negated by indiscriminate breeding done without regard to phenotype or genotype.


I completely agree with your assessment on both! Lucky never fathered a litter. Buddy to my knowledge never fathered a litter. Both were neutered.

People always say it was a shame I neutered them but they were not bred quality and their pedigrees definitely were not respectable!

I know of a breeder local to me that bred Lucky's 1/2 sister several times and then bred though pups with the same shotie pedigree and charges $1500/ puppy.


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## michigander

I am also just gaining familiarity with using k9data.com and trying to learn to understand pedigrees. I'm not sure if I am understanding, though. What would the difference in a dog's pedigree look like on k9data.com if the lineage involves linebreeding versus inbreeding versus outcrossing?


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## Ljilly28

KatieBlue'sMidnightSky said:


> Ok, now this makes sense too. So, there are probably a few influential lines in Bella's pedigree (simply using her as an example), and not ALL the kennels are (key word) 'established' lines bred over time in a very planned and executed breeding program. Hmmm....
> 
> Could one say that because there are so many other non-established lines, say in Bella's pedigree, that the established lines have been diluted...and possible quite diluted, to the point she doesn't really have any line left? She's a mish-mash versus having any true line? (Please....I hope no one takes offense to this verbiage ~ I just lack knowledge to use any other. I don't want to look like I am picking on my own girl either... I love her to the moon and back, but she is my little 'case study') **


I have this problem in considering dogs with whom to breed Lush. Even though there are many lauded dually titled dogs I admire in their own rights, it is too easy to create an unpredictable mishmash by completely outcrossing her into another line(s). 

While I don't want to inbreed her bc I worry about about one particular dog in her pedigree( like breed her to her own brother - the most extreme of inbreeding, or back to her own son), it would make for more sense to me to breed her to her own grandfather Hobo bc he is relatively a clean health dog with extraordinary structure and temperament than breed her outcross to a dog I both don't know enough about the pedigree and also has nothing in common with my bitch. Hobo brings usually a lot of energy to pups, so I would know what kind of homes I would neeed- not couch potatoes! I would never dare actually do such a close breeding as Hobo in real life, but master breeders are able to use this as a tool for the good. However, it is not a tool for someone like me who is less experienced, as it could all go so bad so fast.

I could make a different choice and breed her right to her great Grampa Faera's Starlight or to a Star son or grandson, tapping into a whole different line with some huge strengths and some concerns too. My dogs Tally and Copley are Faera line dogs, and I know a whole lot about Star and some specific Star sons - benefits to Lush puppies and risks too. These need to be weighed out, and that is where good judgment and good information is key. 


Since the line I love in Lush is the Tuxedo line, that is why I chose Laurell's Goin'Great Guns last time- he touches on it loosely and has everything I wanted structurally and in terms of temperament. That was an easy choice bc there were lots of benefits but fewers risks given her specific pedigree. 

I do not really think type to type breedings could work for me and Lush, bc she herself was one outcross from a set line to bring in Hobo.


The temptation of the novice is to see bling ( big titles) and not see the mish mash, so it is useful and educational that you brought up the concept.


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## Ljilly28

sterregold said:


> Quar, Bainin, Whirly, Expo, Jake, Yogi, Sabre are all common in a lot of versatile pedigrees (and mostly connected!) One who I think does not get mentioned as much as some is Strad (Jazzmin Pebwin's Xtravaganz)--he is my Win's grandfather, and also behind most of the Morningstar Goldens. Colabaugh has also produced some very good looking, good working dogs. Buzz is another neat dog (Honeybee's Swarm Warning).


The key is to know what health risks each brings to the table along with strengths so you do not blindly double or triple up on them. I love one of those dogs, but my experienced breeder was able to tell me hey, you would be doubling up on the risk od a particular eye problem for example and for another the risk of high tails (not as big a deal). It is so much more than the dog- a jigsaw puzzle of strengths and risks. I grew up with Quar kids and grandkids, so that is the one dog in the list I know well myself.


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## Kmullen

I think it really depends as far as what the bitch will produce and if they type well together. Remi is outcrossed and I bred her to Fisher for an outcross and all my puppies are very similar. There is nothing in Remi's pedigree that I could or want to line breed on. SO, I will be outcrossing her and then going closer for the next generation, if everything turns out.


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## hollyk

:doh: Not only hard for the puppy producers but for the puppy buyers too. I'm starting to feel the more I know the harder it gets. Temperament, structure, genetics, biddable, drive,....lions, tigers, and bears. Friends keep telling me to keep learning and asking questions and when the right litter comes along I will know it. I hope they're right or Winter is going to be a only dog for a long time.


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## Ljilly28

hollyk said:


> :doh: Not only hard for the puppy producers but for the puppy buyers too. I'm starting to feel the more I know the harder it gets. Temperament, structure, genetics, biddable, drive,....lions, tigers, and bears. Friends keep telling me to keep learning and asking questions and when the right litter comes along I will know it. I hope they're right or Winter is going to be a only dog for a long time.


I think it is true the more you know the harder it is! There is also a quotient of mystery in a breeding no matter how careful, and the simple fact that dogs are living beings and even that goldens have many health risks. Even in a gorgeous well-thought out breeding, maybe there are no show pups or maybe the fire is there on paper but no FCs. 

I had a golden who should not have had severe ED. Her parents, grandparents, and greats had nice clearances, but several descending in her litter and her cousins and nephews etc had it, and her mom was eventually spayed. Frustrating for everyone- as truly all was contientious and careful, but they still had it. 

On the flipside, people argue on behalf of backyard breeders bc by the coin toss they have a healthy dog- just lucked out and then they generalize that.


In response though to the above post that the more we know the harder it can be to pull the trigger and choose a pup or stud dog, I think it helps to make peace with the idea there is going to be risk, but usually if a dog doesnt pass a clearance or has an issue, it isnt life threatening( it can be) and a new normal comes, maybe with reigned in hopes for the dog, but still a loved and loving life.

My golden Finn had prelims Hips excellent elbows normal, eyes and heart both clear. His mom lived to be 15 and his dad started his Master Hunter title at age 9 and finished at age 10. Finn has idiopathic epilepsy, and his great, great,great grandfather had it too severely. When Finn was diagnosed, it was like the world was ending I was so panicked. Over time though, it normalized, we learned to deal very nicely with it, and Finn is doing amazing as an active happy veteran. I would rather have Finn with his epilepsy, than another dog without it. Finn didnt win in the genetic roulette, but the great majority of the dogs in his "line" are healthy and longlived, so I made peace that everyone did their bests, but Finn still has this problem that represents the vast minority and a kind of unlikely wildcard. He still the bestest dog.


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## sterregold

Ljilly28 said:


> The key is to know what health risks each brings to the table along with strengths so you do not blindly double or triple up on them. I love one of those dogs, but my experienced breeder was able to tell me hey, you would be doubling up on the risk od a particular eye problem for example and for another the risk of high tails (not as big a deal). It is so much more than the dog- a jigsaw puzzle of strengths and risks. I grew up with Quar kids and grandkids, so that is the one dog in the list I know well myself.


Yes it always a balancing act. If the eye issue dog is the same one as I am thinking, it is something I have had to deal with as that dog is grandsire to one of my dogs. And with another of those versatile producers I have in my lines allergies can be an issue if you get too tight on him. I did a breeding to add an injection of water courage an oomph for field work, knowing that there are bite issues with one of the dogs in the sire's pedigree--so to build on that breeding, I now have to watch for that dog in breeding the offspring. It is always that risk-reward scenario. I at this point am just thankful that the core of my breeding program does not have PU connections as I have several friends who have had their programs now wiped out, and are having to start over, and are just shaking their heads watching other people continue to linebreed on the same stuff even knowing what has happened. That takes some wilful ignorance.


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## hollyk

Ljilly28 said:


> I think it is true the more you know the harder it is! There is also a quotient of mystery in a breeding no matter how careful, and the simple fact that dogs are living beings and even that goldens have many health risks. Even in a gorgeous well-thought out breeding, maybe there are no show pups or maybe the fire is there on paper but no FCs.
> 
> I had a golden who should not have had severe ED. Her parents, grandparents, and greats had nice clearances, but several descending in her litter and her cousins and nephews etc had it, and her mom was eventually spayed. Frustrating for everyone- as truly all was contientious and careful, but they still had it.
> 
> On the flipside, people argue on behalf of backyard breeders bc by the coin toss they have a healthy dog- just lucked out and then they generalize that.
> 
> 
> In response though to the above post that the more we know the harder it can be to pull the trigger and choose a pup or stud dog, I think it helps to make peace with the idea there is going to be risk, but usually if a dog doesnt pass a clearance or has an issue, it isnt life threatening( it can be) and a new normal comes, maybe with reigned in hopes for the dog, but still a loved and loving life.
> 
> My golden Finn had prelims Hips excellent elbows normal, eyes and heart both clear. His mom lived to be 15 and his dad started his Master Hunter title at age 9 and finished at age 10. Finn has idiopathic epilepsy, and his great, great,great grandfather had it too severely. When Finn was diagnosed, it was like the world was ending I was so panicked. Over time though, it normalized, we learned to deal very nicely with it, and Finn is doing amazing as an active happy veteran. I would rather have Finn with his epilepsy, than another dog without it. Finn didnt win in the genetic roulette, but the great majority of the dogs in his "line" are healthy and longlived, so I made peace that everyone did their bests, but Finn still has this problem that represents the vast minority and a kind of unlikely wildcard. He still the bestest dog.





sterregold said:


> Yes it always a balancing act. If the eye issue dog is the same one as I am thinking, it is something I have had to deal with as that dog is grandsire to one of my dogs. And with another of those versatile producers I have in my lines allergies can be an issue if you get too tight on him. I did a breeding to add an injection of water courage an oomph for field work, knowing that there are bite issues with one of the dogs in the sire's pedigree--so to build on that breeding, I now have to watch for that dog in breeding the offspring. It is always that risk-reward scenario. I at this point am just thankful that the core of my breeding program does not have PU connections as I have several friends who have had their programs now wiped out, and are having to start over, and are just shaking their heads watching other people continue to linebreed on the same stuff even knowing what has happened. That takes some wilful ignorance.



I'm trying to learn as much as I can. However, it does come down to finding a breeder (or two) who is breeding the kind Golden I want, with a program that makes sense to me. I think my worrying right now is part of my process in figuring out just what it is I'm looking for and who has it. Once puppy comes home they're here to stay whether we play the dog games or not.
A favorite pastime right now is window shopping litter announcements. I try and figure out what they are going for with the breeding, straight up line breeding, trying to bring a dog farther back forward, upping the performance, if not line is it type to type. I love when the breeder does a little write up about what they are hoping to produce, sometimes I try to read between the lines. I also like it when they show pictures of the dogs wet. I feel I can get a better look at them.

Another thing I think about is where I would be considered on the litter as opposed to other people getting a puppy. I don't want to pick my puppy, but I do want that MH.  If there are a lot of experienced people waiting for puppies too would I get the one that would be a good match for me? Is this a crazy concern?
Can I ask a breeder where I'm on the litter, would they tell me if they didn't think any of the puppies would work for me once they had been evaluated, could I walk away from a puppy on the ground? Too much time on my hands I better go train the dog at me feet.


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## sterregold

hollyk said:


> I'm trying to learn as much as I can. However, it does come down to finding a breeder (or two) who is breeding the kind Golden I want, with a program that makes sense to me. I think my worrying right now is part of my process in figuring out just what it is I'm looking for and who has it. Once puppy comes home they're here to stay whether we play the dog games or not.
> A favorite pastime right now is window shopping litter announcements. I try and figure out what they are going for with the breeding, straight up line breeding, trying to bring a dog farther back forward, upping the performance, if not line is it type to type. I love when the breeder does a little write up about what they are hoping to produce, sometimes I try to read between the lines. I also like it when they show pictures of the dogs wet. I feel I can get a better look at them.
> 
> Another thing I think about is where I would be considered on the litter as opposed to other people getting a puppy. I don't want to pick my puppy, but I do want that MH.  If there are a lot of experienced people waiting for puppies too would I get the one that would be a good match for me? Is this a crazy concern?
> Can I ask a breeder where I'm on the litter, would they tell me if they didn't think any of the puppies would work for me once they had been evaluated, could I walk away from a puppy on the ground? Too much time on my hands I better go train the dog at me feet.


That is key in looking for the sort of dog you want--patience and waiting for the right litter! I too often see people jump at a litter that is ready now because they just do not want to wait, and they end up compromising key things they wanted. I think the breeders producing the kind of dog you are after look to have a variety of homes lined up as there tends to be some range of personalities, and that is why the questionnaires tend to be so detailed, and their litter evaluation processes more in depth as well.


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