# Stay away from them !!



## mywifeni (Oct 3, 2008)

Northern Lights and Siberians.
Being inexperienced all the red flags just didn't register.
These people are irresponsibly just pumping puppies out.
The sob story runaround is their method of operation.
in our original post http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=48385&highlight=concerns we were a bit worried but having a healthy puppy at that point , we decided to use it as a learning experience and having discovered this site after the fact, we are grateful for the wealth of information and helpfulness of the members here.
As of last night our baby boy is at the hospital being evaluated for a possible heart murmur among other issues. We will know more later today.
We are praying it's nothing serious. He was been with us for only a few months but what he has brought to our lives is without measure. 
I will update as soon as we know more. 
Had i been confident of his background and had the information to back it up I wouldn't be as angry. Having a dog with issues is the luck of the draw.
These people are just breeding irresponsibly and taking people for a ride.
They don't care about the puppies or the families they go to.
Sorry for venting....

http://newjersey.bbb.org/WWWRoot/Report.aspx?site=89&bbb=0221&firm=25001934


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

I'm sorry you and your puppy are going through so many problems. Irresponsible breeding makes my blood boil. Please let us know what you find out from the vet. I hope it is nothing serious.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Hopefully it wont be bad news at the vets and he will be ok. What other issues is he having? I will say a little prayer for him and you. If you get some news on his murmur than I would contact a cardiologist for a second opinion.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

The helpless feeling that comes with a sick puppy is so sad. I hope your pup turns out to be just fine. Sorry you are going through this.


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## rictic (Feb 16, 2009)

sending best wishes and positive thoughts for the little fella.


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## mywifeni (Oct 3, 2008)

bump with update. We had decided that we were going to do what we could so that this didnt happen again to other families. Seems the wheels of justice are already in motion

February 18, 2009



SPCA: N.Y. man sold sick puppies: N.Y. man sold sick puppies, SPCA says
_
By MICHELLE SAHN
STAFF WRITER_ Authorities have signed complaints against a New York man who they say sold sick puppies to unsuspecting customers.
John Steib Jr., 61, of Cicero, N.Y., sold the puppies — mostly golden retrievers and Siberian huskies — on Bernice Drive here under a business called Northern Lights Siberians, said Victor "Buddy" Amato, the police chief of the Monmouth County Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.
The SPCA and the local health department launched investigations after three customers complained to authorities that they bought ill dogs, he said.
Amato said if a veterinarian deems a dog unfit for sale within 14 days of the purchase, the seller must either pay for the veterinary care of the dog, give the buyer a new dog of equal value, or give the buyer a refund. But Steib refused to comply with that rule, he said.
SPCA Sgt. Matthew Giuliano went to the Bernice Drive location twice, and on both occasions, there was no water for the dogs, Amato said. Some dogs were in crates in the back of a van, and the bottoms of the cages were covered with diarrhea, Amato said.
On Tuesday, authorities signed complaints against Steib, charging him with nine counts of animal cruelty — two counts of failure to provide sustenance, in this case, veterinary care, three counts of improper shelter, and four counts of no water.
Steib was not at the Freehold Township location Tuesday, so he had not yet been served with the complaints.
The local health department's investigation is continuing, Amato said.
Anyone else who may purchased a sick dog from Steib is asked to call Amato at (732) 312-7153. All information will be kept confidential, he said.


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## jealous1 (Dec 7, 2007)

How is your pup?


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## Angel_Kody (Feb 27, 2007)

I'm confused.  "It says NY man sold sick puppies" but this kennel is located in Freehold Township, NJ...yes?


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## mywifeni (Oct 3, 2008)

as per what he told me they have a home in NY and the home in Freehold.


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## Angel_Kody (Feb 27, 2007)

mywifeni said:


> as per what he told me they have a home in NY and the home in Freehold.


Oh..hmmm. I remember looking at their website after I had chosen the breeder I got Jester from. They have a girl "Kayla" *Champion Ptd. Caymen's Breaking Northern Lights* who has the same sire (Frair Tuck) as my Jester. It just goes to show how deceiving websites can be. :no:

I hope your pup is doing well.


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## mywifeni (Oct 3, 2008)

Caymen's Breaking Northern Lights is my pups grandma on dad's side, and great grandma on his moms side....at this point i don't even know what to believe. I just will do my part in making sure they dont hurt anymore families.


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## SunGold (Feb 27, 2007)

mywifeni said:


> bump with update. We had decided that we were going to do what we could so that this didnt happen again to other families. Seems the wheels of justice are already in motion
> 
> February 18, 2009
> 
> ...


Geeze - I dealt with a woman a few years ago that was on list for a "show" puppy from them, they ended up telling her they didn't have anything, guess that was a good thing!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

It must be so sad when breeder's find their dogs in bad situations. I know a couple of our great breeders on GRF have a story about one of their precious dogs ending up in the wrong hands. I cannot imagine that Caymen's would be very happy to hear of this- yikes.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I hope your pup is feeling better and good luck with getting that man stopped. He is a handsome boy.


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## skeller (Mar 5, 2008)

WOW!! I spoke to the wife when we were looking for pups. We were supposed to go up and take a look at their puppies, but John never called me back to set up an appointment. Now I am glad!! I hope your boy is ok.


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## Angel_Kody (Feb 27, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> It must be so sad when breeder's find their dogs in bad situations. I know a couple of our great breeders on GRF have a story about one of their precious dogs ending up in the wrong hands. I cannot imagine that Caymen's would be very happy to hear of this- yikes.


This is exactly what I was thinking. I'm sure that Sharon (Caymen's) wouldn't be happy to hear this at all but she's not the only one...My goodness...if you look at that website there are a lot of very reputable golden kennel names in those dogs!

The whole home in NY & NJ thing bugs me. Are they just leaving the dogs at the kennel most of the time to fend for themselves? The article sure makes it sound like the dogs are neglected at the NJ location.

Well...anyway...your pup is adorable and he is related to my Jester! I hope he has a long and healthy life. What is his name?


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## Angel_Kody (Feb 27, 2007)

Something is not adding up here. I am still confused. :uhoh:

The name of the man from Cicero, NY (in the article) is John Steib, Jr.

The names on the website are Lynn & Renee Overy

Also...to the OP...did you file the BBB report that you have a link to or was it already filed by someone else in 2007?


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## mywifeni (Oct 3, 2008)

his name is ASERE....you have to roll the rrr
the origin of his name since everyone always has a puzzled look.....

Asere takes its name from the sacred Efik-language, Abakuá religion, meaning literally, "I salute you." Today, it is a common greeting among Cubans. Meaning friend, buddy, homie, dude, etc.
¿Que bola, asere? "How's it going, buddy?"


with all the time spent searching, we found nothing negative or positive on these people. the negative we have found has been "after the fact"....too long a story to get into...... he has been home since the end of Nov. he has had the runs, currently has a respiratory infection, and was diagnosed with mild-moderate SAS. he is the sweetest, well behaved puppy ever. we made a huge mistake in picking this breeder but the wealth of information on this forum reinforces our desire to make sure he continues to live a good life. every day is a learning experience and hopefully we will grow not only as dog owners, but as golden owners.


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

I posted a thread on this when the news first broke but got basically no response: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=51809

I suspected it was this breeder. I think they move when they get booted out of a town for the conditions of their Kennel. If I'm not mistaken, the man in the article used to be a show handler and may co-own Goldens. 

But... like I said in the other thread - I know the folks that used to live down the street were so pleased with their first Golden from that Kennel that they tracked them down and bought their 2nd Golden from them as well.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

Sometimes we get the puppies we do for a reason. I was in your shoes, kicking myself for not making a good choice. but I wouldn't trade Tinkerbell for anything. She has severe SAS it was first diagnosed at 9 weeks and confirmed at 6 months, her murmur is rated a 4.5 - 5 out of 6. As I'm sure you were told the higher the number the worse it is, so it sounds pretty grim. but Tinkerbell will be *3 *in June. And is thriving. She is such a joy to our entire family. 

Here is a link to a thread that gives Tinkerbell's story as well as several others.


http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?p=450425&highlight=murmur#post450425

Asere is beautiful, I hope you'll continue to post pics and I pray you'll get to enjoy him for at least as long as I have Tinkerbell.


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## Charl045 (Jul 3, 2009)

*Nothern Lights*

*This is what they have been up to since the first report of animal cruelty. I am still searching to find anything that is recent. I also have a complaints board message if anyone would like to join in on that. *
http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/northern-lights-goldens-c241297.html#comments
*Below is news article from 12/09.*

*I am in the process of moving to NM but I am going to devote a lot of my time in trying to get these theives out of business. *
*Oh btw..she(lynn) monitors that website above. Creep!! *


John Steib, 61 of Mexico, New York, was charged with 15 counts of animal cruelty on Saturday after police seized dozens of puppies left caged in his utility van at a motel, according to the report. 
Steib has previously pleaded guilty in July to selling sick Siberian and Golden Retriever puppies to the public; he was ordered to pay $20,000 in fines.
On Thursday, according to the report, a hotel worker at the Red Roof Inn at Tinton Falls heard dogs barking and whining inside a utility van there. She asked Steib about the sounds and was assured that the dogs were being taken care of.
When the employee again heard barking this past Saturday, she called the police, who responded in conjunction with the Monmouth County SPCA.
From the report:
The worker heard the animals in the van, parked in the rear of the hotel, again on Saturday. She called Tinton Falls police. Authorities including police, Amato and the Associated Humane Society responded and found 15 caged puppies inside the van, Amato said. The puppies were Siberian Huskies and Golden Retrievers, Amato said. The puppies were contained in wire cages, Amato said. The humane society took custody of the animals, Amato said.​Steib will facem charges for animal cruelty in Tinton Falls Municipal Court on January 5. In July, Steib was ordered to pay $12,500 in fines for animal cruelty and $8,000 in restitution to customers who purchased puppies from him.
He ran Northern Lights dog breeding company on Bernice Road in Freehold Township together with Lynn and Renee Overy, also of New York.


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## jlwilson (Mar 10, 2011)

If anyone is still checking this thread, we are now dealing with this group in my area and are asking that anyone who has purchased an animal from them will please contact me. I can't private message any of you yet to give you my email and phone number, but you may be able to do so to me and give me an email to get back to you instead. Good and bad experiences are wanted. We don't want to be unfair, but we need confirmation regarding some things they have said to the authorities. Thank you so much. They are still doing the same things. It's unconscionable for someone who professes to love these beautiful dogs. They also breed and sell Siberian Huskies. Similar problems there.


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## jlwilson (Mar 10, 2011)

If anyone is still checking this thread, we are now dealing with this group in my area and are asking that anyone who has purchased an animal from them will please contact me. I can't private message any of you yet to give you my email and phone number, but you may be able to do so to me and give me an email to get back to you instead. Good and bad experiences are wanted. We don't want to be unfair, but we need confirmation regarding some things they have said to the authorities. Thank you so much. They are still doing the same things. It's unconscionable for someone who professes to love these beautiful dogs. They also breed and sell Siberian Huskies. Similar problems there.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Once you have 15 posts you can send private message. 

What a mess. I can't believe the Humane Society is letting this go on.


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## jlwilson (Mar 10, 2011)

Thank you, Jackie. I know that I need to send 15 messages, but I don't want to abuse the system for my own purposes, so I am waiting until I actually do have that many. Actually, I just realized that I sent two of my first message. That was not by design. Sorry. Anyway, I just thought that I can't send out, but maybe someone would be able to send out to me directly. 

I have another option. If one goes to this link http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/northern-lights-goldens-c241297.html?sort=datea&page=3, which is also about Northern Lights, one will see my name on a few of the messages there. Click on my name and you will be able to send me a personal message that only I will get or see. That way you can safely tell me how to contact you either via email or phone. We are in a crunch and particularly need info from people from New York State that have bought, but all information regarding experienneces with this breeder are welcome and helpful in our efforts. Thanks, all, for listening. I hope you are still out there.


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## mywifeni (Oct 3, 2008)

feel free to email me !


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Just to clear up one thing from that link, a golden with mild SAS can live long past 6 years. SAS is not always fatal by 6 years of age.


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

Yikes!!! Glad to hear you are all taking steps to hopefully put an end to future animal/owners suffering.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

mywifeni said:


> Caymen's Breaking Northern Lights is my pups grandma on dad's side, and great grandma on his moms side....at this point i don't even know what to believe. I just will do my part in making sure they dont hurt anymore families.


Caymen's Breaking Northern Lights is our Tyson's great, great grandmother on his sire's side. Tyson isn't from Northern Lights, though.


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## jlwilson (Mar 10, 2011)

Mywifeni: Wanted to know if you received my email address and telephone number? I am looking forward to hearing from you.

WARNING: They are also working under the name of Twin Tree Siberians and Crown Royal Goldens. They are everywhere on the Internet.


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## jlwilson (Mar 10, 2011)

They live in Parish, NY now, but they have "associates" and family members in the business all over and especially still in New Jersey.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

It is so sad authorities won't do more to stop this.


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## dna332 (Dec 31, 2010)

@ jwent81 sorry cant pm yet not at 15 message Our dog is also related to Caymen's Breaking Northern Lights that is his Great Grandmother on his Sir side so I guess our boys are related.


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## jlwilson (Mar 10, 2011)

dan and jwent: I, too, cannot send a direct message yet, but when I can, I shall be in touch. If you get there first, maybe you can reach me direct and I can get back to you via an email address or a telephone number. We are working very hard to bringing this to an end. Who knows how it will end?


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## NJgoldengirl (Jan 16, 2011)

So sorry that your pup has health issues. Before I left for school, I worked at animal clinic in NJ who saw a pup of theirs and she was so sickly looking. She had chem and CBC values that were not normal. The pup was also underweight and the owner had just picked her up that day. Her hair coat looked unhealthy too. That was the first time that I had learned about Northern Lights being bad breeders - I used to see ads in the Asbury Park Press for those pups all of the time and now you never see them. 

I am sorry you had a bad experience, but yes, you do learn from them. I admit that I learned from my last golden puppy buying experience and have thoughtfully and carefully done my research now for my next pup. 

I hope your pup gets better, but now all you can do is love him and just think about what would have happened if you never picked him out. <3


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## jlwilson (Mar 10, 2011)

NJgoldengirl: I hope to have my 15 messages in shortly and then I shall contact you and the others on the thread that have had direct contact with these people or their animals. We need all the info we can get. They are still working the system, and us.


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## mywifeni (Oct 3, 2008)

I really hope these people are stopped. The amount of heartache and sleepless nights we have endured worrying about our boy is more than crime enough. He is due for a cardiologist visit on Wednesday and will keep you guys posted. He is our miracle puppy as over a year ago they told us he could go at any time. He is the sweetest, most loving and good looking boy one could have. All the doc visits, all the meds, the procedures, he never complained which is why we have done all we can and even can't to make sure he stays happy for as long as possible.


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## oakleysmommy (Feb 20, 2011)

i am so sorry.. i pray he is going to be fine. this whole thing just makes me sick to my stomach. they need to be stopped and now. please keep us posted on weds.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Bumping up.


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## FDylan (Apr 12, 2011)

I purchased a Golden Retriever from Northern Lights last August and my poor boy has been sick since the first day we got him. He has been treated for diarrhea, giardia, kennel cough, UTI, parvo, parasites, allergies and anything and everything you can think of! He's permanently on prescription food and every 2 - 3 weeks we find ourselves at the animal hospital or the vet because he's sick again. Has anyone else found out how / why these dogs are so ill? We've gone to many vets for different opinions but no one can help our poor boy! He's only one and a half years old. Anyone have the same symptoms or had any luck? We'd appreciate any advice as we feel helpless.


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## mywifeni (Oct 3, 2008)

it has been a struggle for us since day one with our boy too ! The constant diarrhea with our boy ended up being an intestinal blockage. By the time it was discovered he was in bad shape. He had surgery to remove it, and lost a foot and a half of instestines in the process. The decision to go ahead with the surgery was killer because of all the risks associated with his heart condition. He has since been on prescription food and has been fine. I don't think I had ever been so happy to see him poop. Every little issue or symptom we take seriously as we have no idea what other congenital issues may pop up. 
*** our follow up at the cardiologist today went ok. she seemed genuinely surprised at how great he looks and how happy he is. All we can do is be thankful for each day and do the best that we can. I have stumbled upon few goldens from Northern Lights, both in cyberspace and out an about. they all seem to have some issue or another. I also have no doubt that the people who adopted dogs or puppies which were rescued from their possession have had to deal with some issues as well. Good luck, and hugs and kisses seem to work wonders for our guy.


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## jlwilson (Mar 10, 2011)

This is so frustrating. They are building a structure in a new township and preparing to move, yet again. I shall be in touch. I am doing all that I can to see that they breed legally and are inspected. I cannot stop them from mass breeding, but I can try my darndest to see that they do it legally and truthfully. I am not happy today, so I shall save you all from having to listen to me rant.


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## Sibe mom (Dec 2, 2011)

jlwilson said:


> If anyone is still checking this thread, we are now dealing with this group in my area and are asking that anyone who has purchased an animal from them will please contact me. I can't private message any of you yet to give you my email and phone number, but you may be able to do so to me and give me an email to get back to you instead. Good and bad experiences are wanted. We don't want to be unfair, but we need confirmation regarding some things they have said to the authorities. Thank you so much. They are still doing the same things. It's unconscionable for someone who professes to love these beautiful dogs. They also breed and sell Siberian Huskies. Similar problems there.


@jlwilson I purchased a Siberian husky from them last October you can reach me at [email protected]


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## Sibe mom (Dec 2, 2011)

I got a Siberian from them dec 17,2010 for Christmas she had the the runs the first 3 months we had her,she has the gardia, phnomia and kennel cough and now she has nothing but problems with her intestines and colon and is still not 100% I have spent over $8,000 in the last 7 months.. The vets think to she could have lymphnoma cancer.. So I'm down for taking these people down its wrong what they are doing


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## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

Hi all long time lurker here this site has been such a great place for info thanks!

Just want to stay on top of this thread - this kennel is STILL selling goldens in NJ!! Here is a link on "terrificpets.com"

AKC Golden Retriever puppy

obviously, ANY golden owner with any smarts knows to stay away from listings like this one, but I came across this listing on doing some research for an older pup.... those not in the know would get sucked in...


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## Ljc0114 (Jan 29, 2012)

*Northern lights golden*

Omg....I just stumbled on this forum and can not believe what I am reading. The golden we purchased in 2006 died yesterday...he was five. Although we were referred by a friend who had also purchased from them a year prior, we met 'John' in the parking lot of a hotel near hope road in eaton town nj. He had the dogs in his van and claimed that they had just moved to upstate NY with the breeding operation which was why he was traveling 'back and forth'. With the pups. I should have known when I had such a hard time getting my AKC papers from them. It took months and finally letters to the AKC before I got them...now I question if they were even the right ones for my dog. We lost another golden at the same age to the same cancer....the odds are just unlikely and makes me wonder even more about inbreeding.


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## Ljc0114 (Jan 29, 2012)

*Northern lights golden! New member*

Being a new member please direct me if I should be on a different thread. I realize it has been some time since this news broke, I don't know how we missed it in our local paper. I only searched northern lights yesterday because I wanted to let 'Lynn' know what happened with our beloved Kramer, who died of lymphoma at age five on Friday. He was really not ill as a pup, other than filthy when we got him. Well behaved and easily trained. However i did have suspicions when i had such touble getting my papers which took almost six months after i threatened to report them, and the whole 'meet me at the red roof inn' thing whenwe bought our puppy. I should have follwed my instincts. They were also full of excuses and sob stories of family illness and relocating. I was shocked finding all of this posted and really can't help but wonder if unscrupulous breeding had anything to do with Kramers illness. I have owned goldens for over thirty years. Our last one died the same way at the same age. He was from a very popular new jersey breeder whose dogs were absolutely beautiful and i adored, however the incidence of cancer made me decide to look elsewhere. since it has been some time since these others pups were acquired with their illnesses, i am wondering if any others have since experienced cancer, particularly those that hit at a young age, like lymphoma. I know cancer is quite common with goldens, however the same one in two dogs in the same family is too coincidental for just bad luck to be the cause.


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## Ljc0114 (Jan 29, 2012)

*Northern lights golden withlymphoma*



Sibe mom said:


> I got a Siberian from them dec 17,2010 for Christmas she had the the runs the first 3 months we had her,she has the gardia, phnomia and kennel cough and now she has nothing but problems with her intestines and colon and is still not 100% I have spent over $8,000 in the last 7 months.. The vets think to she could have lymphnoma cancer.. So I'm down for taking these people down its wrong what they are doing


SibeMom...I hope your dog is doing better. I can not email yet otherwise would send to you directly. Please see my post in this string regarding lymphoma in my golden. I hope you do not find the same in you dog.


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## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

Ljc0114 said:


> SibeMom...I hope your dog is doing better. I can not email yet otherwise would send to you directly. Please see my post in this string regarding lymphoma in my golden. I hope you do not find the same in you dog.


Ljc0114 I am SO SORRY for your loss!! I lost my 12.5 year old goldie 1 week before Christmas this year so I know how you feel right now!!

You gave your goldie a LOVING HOME and essentially saved him from theses savage breeders. The good thing is now you know the ugly side of dog breeding - calling it "good" is weird, maybe informed is better.... They breed NOT for the love of the dogs, or health, but simply for QUANTITY of puppies & for how much money each dog can make them. It is SICK!

There are plenty of EXCELLENT golden retriever breeders here in NJ. If you are looking for a new dog you need to do your research. An excellent breeder will require you to fill out an application for one of their pups. You should also be asking them detailed questions. This website is awesome for info on who to go to or who to stay away from. When you think you have found a breeder, do a search of their kennel name on here to find out if anyone else has dealt with them. 

One thing I do not like is breeders from other states ( NC, TN, WV) and they ONLY sell in NY or NJ. This is strictly for $. They will TELL you it is b/c they do not like how the people of their state treat their animals....?? Last I checked people in NJ and NY also treated their animals like crap sometimes, so this is total BS. It is b/c they can get more money from the "rich" people up here....Deplorable! anyway good luck & glad you found this website!! Oh I can tell you that northern lights does not give a crap about how your dog died or when, and if you get in touch with them to let them know they will try to sell you another dog!!!


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## jlwilson (Mar 10, 2011)

It truly saddens me that I am still hearing the horror stories about these people. With all their history that we have documented (including still not having paid the balance of the fines from the animal cruelty conviction in NJ), no one will act to shut them down - not the town, not NYS Dept. of A&M; not the NJ, NY or US Departments of Finance and Taxation; not the AKC (John's ex-wife happens to be a judge for AKC and the AKC supports pet stores and millers and licenses their animals because they make huge money doing so); and not the police. As usual with animal issues, the "foxes are in charge of watching the henhouse". We also cannot get anyone to act on pet stores that are in constant violation of state laws and for whom we have audio, written and verbal proof of their lies to the public. Most of the public is still not aware of the lengths these people will go to in order to make money off of these helpless animals and unsuspecting buyers. And the worst is that, even when presented with the hard facts, governmental reports and physical proof, many people will prefer to believe the lies from the pet stores than the truth. Ignorance is bliss (I suppose), but being informed and refusing to do what is necessary to stop evil (especially when it is one's paid job) is unconscionable and absolutely self-serving. Okay, off my soapbox. I am asking, please, that if anyone can find out where these people are now doing business (and we know they are), PLEASE post your information to this site or write to me directly. They have moved their breeding facility out of the Town of Mexico and were trying to build and create a new "kennel" in the Town of Albion (both in Central New York), but were blocked from doing so at the second. They now have that piece of property for sale. We know where some of them are still living, but we cannot find where they have taken their breeders. They have connections in NJ and other places, but we think they must still have breeders in the CNY area and we really need to locate this place. Also, PLEASE research and get behind legislation that is being presented which will make it a requirement for those who sell puppies via the Internet to be licensed and regulated by the USDA. We actually have relatively decent laws now in many places, but no one will enforce them. So what is one to do? We have to stand together and insist that these greed-driven acts which are perpetuated in the name of "free enterprise”, need to be stopped. If such conditions were continued in the name of making money, we would still have slavery, child labor, sweat shops, no minimum wages and no limits on number of hours one can be worked, and other such abuses. Money is not a reason for cruelty to ANY sentient being who can feel pain, loneliness, boredom, hunger and thirst, temperature extremes, lack of medical care, etc. What has happened to us? I am so sorry that so many of you have had such horrible experiences with your "fur-kids". If you can get the name of the breeder of a dog you are considering buying (which is required of pet stores BEFORE sale in NYS), there are sites to which you can go to find out if they are licensed, if they have any infractions, if they have sold any sick animals to pet stores, etc. As it now stands, any breeder licensed by the USDA is a mass-breeder (puppy-mill) and they sell to pet stores or to brokers who then sell to the pet stores. This is how some stores feel they can assuage their culpability and say that they do not buy from millers. So the question is to ask whether the puppies come from mills, not whether the store “bought” them from mills. In the end, the answer is yes. These dogs come from mass breeders. Contact me via this site or directly if I can be of any help or if you have any idea as to what names they are now using, on what websites they are selling and, hopefully, where their breeding dogs are being kept. Good luck to all and keep passing the word on these and other unscrupulous entities.


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## Ljc0114 (Jan 29, 2012)

*Thank you jwilson and tuckerkeys*

Thank you both for you feedback. I am waiting to speak an acquaintance with a dog from the same breeder. Have not seen her in a long time and wondering how her golden is doing. My goal is still to see if any others have experienced lymphoma. I am going to look at the cancer thread on this site. It was a week ago today when Kramer died. Newman, our other dog, a burnese mountain dog is so lost. Kramer was his 'big brother' since we brought him home at eight weeks. All he does is lay around and sleep. I need to start researching breeders since I know I will wake up one day and decide it's time for a puppy


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## Ljc0114 (Jan 29, 2012)

*Looking for a breeder*

I would like to start researching golden cbreeders in nj or surrounding area. Ian thinking maybe in spring/summer. I will not make another mistake like Northern Lights. Any suggestions?


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## jlwilson (Mar 10, 2011)

Yes, Ljc, I have some suggestions. Go to this site and it pretty much says everything in six easy steps. IMO, the most important one is #2. If someone will not let you come to their locaton, they are not reputable breeders. If they let you on the property, but they only let you in one room and have the puppies brought to you, but will not let you see the breeding parents, that is a red flag. Especially if it is a farm, there may be horror behind the doors. Sometimes they have one adult pair that they keep in the house to use as a show pair for the sale, but the real parents are living in hell. If they are licensed by the USDA, they are most decidedly puppy mills. If they are in a pet store, they are almost always from puppy mills. Ask to see the documentation and get the name and location of the broker or the breeder, and let me know. I can determine for you if they are millers and what theri inspection records show and how many breeding dogs they have. This is my life, so feel free to ask me for help. I do not mind at all. Remeber and please tell everyone, that (1) a reputable breeder would NEVER sell their dogs to a pet store and (2) pet stores all lie about from where their puppies come. Get the info and let me know. I've got your back. In the Market for a Puppy? : The Humane Society of the United States Best, best of luck for you and your new best friend.


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## Sibe mom (Dec 2, 2011)

U can always check out the akc site n find good breeders in you area that r watched by the akc n the golden retriever club of America.. Or you can always rescue from petfinder.com there are always dogs and puppies looking for homes...good luck and sorry to hear about ur Babi...


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## Sibe mom (Dec 2, 2011)

@fdylan I bought a sibe from them in dec of 10 they went by crown royal siberians and she had diarrhea, giardia, kennel cough, enteritis x3 and she has severe vaccine reactions and some food allergies.. And she is now my $10,000 dog... She's currently a yr and 4 months... I feel horrible that she had to go threw all this in just her first 6 months what a life for a puppy...these people r horrible and I got the same answer when it came to her papers that Lynn's father passed away and after reading some other posts I wonder how many family members they have left... We have to find out where they r n stop this it's not only not right to people buying them and the puppies but these poor breeder dogs r being over bred..mi found out that my girl comes from a champion line and her health was so bad I fixed her when I really wanted to breed her..my girlfriend also has a sibe from them which after doing some research is my dogs brother..n she's only a week younger n has sezuires something's not right here..I know they sell on terrific pets I wonder if there is anyway to fake a purchase n request to see the parents.. I can only imagine what they look like.. 
Good luck with your boy.. Let's stop these people


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## Topaz29 (Feb 21, 2012)

*Hello*

Hello, I am brand new to this site. I stumbled upon it by accident. I can't tell you how sorry i am to read this thread and to all the people who have sick dogs from John and Lynn. I have 2 goldens that I bought from John. I stumbled across an ad for his dogs in the Asbury Park Press. I live in Brielle NJ. I got my first dog from John, on dec. 23 2005. His name is Charlie. He is tremendous. I was on John's website as one of his happy customers. I reffered quiote a few people to John shortly after we got Charlie. We were so happy with Charlie, that 2 years later we got a second male from John. His name is Cosmo. As great as Charlie was, Cosmo was even better. We got Cosmo on dec. 23, 2007, excatly 2 years after Charlie. Again, I reffered more people to John. To date both dogs are doing well. i am not sure what I can ad at this point, but you can contact me at 
[email protected].
Thanks and good luck to all with your dogs.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Topaz29 said:


> Hello, I am brand new to this site. I stumbled upon it by accident. I can't tell you how sorry i am to read this thread and to all the people who have sick dogs from John and Lynn. I have 2 goldens that I bought from John. I stumbled across an ad for his dogs in the Asbury Park Press. I live in Brielle NJ. I got my first dog from John, on dec. 23 2005. His name is Charlie. He is tremendous. I was on John's website as one of his happy customers. I reffered quiote a few people to John shortly after we got Charlie. We were so happy with Charlie, that 2 years later we got a second male from John. His name is Cosmo. As great as Charlie was, Cosmo was even better. We got Cosmo on dec. 23, 2007, excatly 2 years after Charlie. Again, I reffered more people to John. To date both dogs are doing well. i am not sure what I can ad at this point, but you can contact me at
> [email protected].
> Thanks and good luck to all with your dogs.


Sounds like you got VERY VERY lucky. I don't recommend taking your chances with another golden with that kind of breeding, your luck might not be that good. The problem with giving one experience is that it misses the bigger picture of the breeding program. In a great breeding, health problems can happen, and in an awful breeding sometimes there is a healthy puppy. (I'm not sure how you escaped the apparent basic health issues like parasites everyone has posted about). but joint problems don't always manifest in genetically predisposed individuals, but it doesn't change the fact that their siblings most likely will develop joint issues, along with their Offspring if bred. Thus reputable breeders not only look at their breeding dog's health clearances, but 5+ generations behind each breeding dog, this increases the chances to pass on healthy genes. Please stick around, and learn what reputable breeders offer to their puppy owners, and post some pictures of your two boys!


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## Topaz29 (Feb 21, 2012)

*Kdowning*

Your points are very well taken, as I know nothing about breeding dogs. I never have any intentions of breeding as I just enjoy them. Even before I heard of the situation with this breeder, I considered myself very, very lucky. I had heard horror stories of goldens being very hard to handle as puppies, and destructive behavior. I did not consider the health issues at the time, just the behavioral issues. My 2 dogs were the easiest puppies I had ever had. This was one of the factors that took me back to this breeder for a second dog. This is also one of the reasons that led me to refer other people to this breeder. There are 2 dogs from this breeder in my neighborhood. One male, one female and they are absolutely beautiful and healthy. One is from the same litter as my youngest, she is the female. When I first heard of this story in the local papers a few years ago, I contacted these 2 people, and like me, they were shocked. This has upset us all.
Being not great on the computer, I would love to post pictures, I just don't know how!!!!!!


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## jlwilson (Mar 10, 2011)

Ljc0114 said:


> I would like to start researching golden cbreeders in nj or surrounding area. Ian thinking maybe in spring/summer. I will not make another mistake like Northern Lights. Any suggestions?


There is a woman in Mexico, New York named Maxine Clark. Her email address is [email protected]. She worked with us on this investigation concerning Steib and Overy and is a very responsible breeder. She only breeds a couple of dogs and they are not bred every heat. They live in the home and have great bloodlines. I believe she has a waiting list of adopters that she has fill out applications and she is extremely conscientious about placement of her dogs. She does not hesitate to refuse a sale to someone who she does not think would be really wonderful, responsible caretakers who understand the "forever-ness" of companion animals. Her dogs are highly sought and she can afford to sell to only the best. You would be very lucky to have one of her "kids". 


Per Sibe Mom's comment, I would like to just state that the AKC makes a very large percentage of their income from millers. They register them all and people then think they are getting a well-bred dog. Not so. The information they get on the applications is taken at the word of the owner. The AKC has little direct knowledge or information on the vast majority of their licensees. And, obviously, there is a problem when they continue to allow Steib to be affiliated after his conviction when it says right on their own site and regulations that anyone convicted of an animal cruelty offense will ever be allowed to register animals with them again. Also, the AKC has supported the millers and the pet stores that sell their dogs at every turn. They have given much support and money to help oppose any legislation that would stop stores from selling dogs (which are all mill dogs, as no reputable breeder would ever sell to a pet store) or to hurt the profits of millers or brokers. They want that income from the licensing and that will not happen if the millers stop breeding and supplying the pet stores. Use your own conscience and do your research, but IMO, the AKC is not a friend to dogs nor do they care about health and lines, only about them having good confirmation for shows. Even sick dogs or badly socialized dogs can have show quality confirmation. Just my take on these things based on what I have experienced. Some will have had other experiences and I presume that Sibe Mom is one of those people. That's good to hear, but I have grave concerns. Best of luck, and it wouldn't hurt to contact Maxine. She's very good and loves her dogs and hates to see the lines threatened by the millers who breed pretty much indiscriminately.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

jlwilson said:


> There is a woman in Mexico, New York named Maxine Clark. Her email address is [email protected]. She worked with us on this investigation concerning Steib and Overy and is a very responsible breeder. She only breeds a couple of dogs and they are not bred every heat. They live in the home and have great bloodlines. I believe she has a waiting list of adopters that she has fill out applications and she is extremely conscientious about placement of her dogs. She does not hesitate to refuse a sale to someone who she does not think would be really wonderful, responsible caretakers who understand the "forever-ness" of companion animals. Her dogs are highly sought and she can afford to sell to only the best. You would be very lucky to have one of her "kids".
> 
> 
> Per Sibe Mom's comment, I would like to just state that the AKC makes a very large percentage of their income from millers. They register them all and people then think they are getting a well-bred dog. Not so. The information they get on the applications is taken at the word of the owner. The AKC has little direct knowledge or information on the vast majority of their licensees. And, obviously, there is a problem when they continue to allow Steib to be affiliated after his conviction when it says right on their own site and regulations that anyone convicted of an animal cruelty offense will ever be allowed to register animals with them again. Also, the AKC has supported the millers and the pet stores that sell their dogs at every turn. They have given much support and money to help oppose any legislation that would stop stores from selling dogs (which are all mill dogs, as no reputable breeder would ever sell to a pet store) or to hurt the profits of millers or brokers. They want that income from the licensing and that will not happen if the millers stop breeding and supplying the pet stores. Use your own conscience and do your research, but IMO, the AKC is not a friend to dogs nor do they care about health and lines, only about them having good confirmation for shows. Even sick dogs or badly socialized dogs can have show quality confirmation. Just my take on these things based on what I have experienced. Some will have had other experiences and I presume that Sibe Mom is one of those people. That's good to hear, but I have grave concerns. Best of luck, and it wouldn't hurt to contact Maxine. She's very good and loves her dogs and hates to see the lines threatened by the millers who breed pretty much indiscriminately.


You are severely over simplifying a very very complex issue. Please do more research into the amount of money AKC donates to canine health research. I'm sure others with a little more time than I do can set some misinformation straight. But the bottom line is that puppy mills are a consequence of the public's view on dogs and their position in society, not the AKC. So to fix puppy mills, you need to fix people, to stop exploiting animals.


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## Sibe mom (Dec 2, 2011)

It's sad to read that where you think is a good way or good place to research for a dog may have flaws... I've heard good and bad with breeders and pet stores a freind of mine got a puppy for a pet store was an great puppy never sick n no health probs.. So 2 yrs latter they decided they wanted another one got one threw a top notch breeder and they had nothing but health problems with her since day one n the breeder wanted nothing to do with them after she sold the puppy.. So in that situation it makes you think what is a better thing to do I bought my 17 month old sibe from John and had nothing but health issues with her and her brother is epileptic... I've spent over $10,000 on her and still spend more...a freind of mine got their sibe from a pet store perfectly healthy puppy so it can go both ways u can have healthy breeders n pet stores that actually care about their animals or u can have the opposite for both.. It sucks u shouldn't have to worry about where u get an animal and do research on the breeder.. They should have checks on these breeders and make sure they r doing it right yeah it may cost more money and be a pain but there r people out their that r killing what were great bloodlines and hurting these dogs. My sibe is not your typical sibe.. She doesn't need to be contained in a fence she is good off leash and she doesn't run off. As a responcable pet owner she is not left alone outside just in case but it's very un sibe like to be trusted off a leash.


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## jlwilson (Mar 10, 2011)

*We Will Not All Agree On All Issues.*



kdowningxc said:


> You are severely over simplifying a very very complex issue. Please do more research into the amount of money AKC donates to canine health research. I'm sure others with a little more time than I do can set some misinformation straight. But the bottom line is that puppy mills are a consequence of the public's view on dogs and their position in society, not the AKC. So to fix puppy mills, you need to fix people, to stop exploiting animals.


I work with puppy mill issues constantly and daily and I do significant research before I speak. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. If AKC is so great for dogs and good breeding, why do they always support the commercial breeders and pet stores when any legislation is written or being considered that will help the animals? I do not think that they want to put a stop to mills. That is not to say that they don't do some good things, but stopping millers and pet stores from selling their puppies is not one of them. We all will never agree on every subject and it is good for newbies to hear both sides of the issues. Hopefully, they will do their own work and decide what they feel is true or not. It is very dangerous in this age of technology to believe anything that one sees or hears. People can create organizations that say they are for animals, yet they are against all legislation to help make animals lives more tolerable and they are financed by big agri-business, breeders, fast food chains, tobacco and alcohol companies, etc. So who do you think they are really trying to support with their rhetoic and lies? Find out who is saying something and who is backing them before taking their word. Some have very evil motives that are disguised. Good luck to all of you who are just recently becoming involved with animal issues. It's not easy to filter out the "good" from the "bad", but we all do the best we can. I'm into my fifth decade of animal welfare/rights work, so I do know a few things, but never all. WHen one stops discussing, questioning and researching, they stop learning and there is always something new. Onward!


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

A lot of the legislation that is proposed would actually put a stop to all breeding, good or bad. Thus where does that leave reputable breeders, if legislators are forcing them to neuter their prize show dogs, that are perfectly healthy and would produce fantastic pets? The bottom line is that the puppy mills live with or without the AKC, because there are so many alternative registries out there, that even if the AKC did a lot more to stop mass breeding, it wouldn't stop it, they would just go through the UKC or the CKC (not the canadian kennel club). A lay person does not know the difference between these registries and many breeders who are suspended for life from the AKC, do just that. So you can't deny that puppy mills are not the fault of the AKC, maybe the AKC isn't supporting these broad brush strokes to stop it. But that doesn't make them responsible for the horrible people running the puppy mills and the buyers that don't do their research. If you go on the AKC website, they site everything a reputable breeder should do, and recommend purchasing from a hobby breeder competing in shows, which would not be a puppy mill. PEOPLE are the problem, because they just rush out and buy the first puppy that crosses their path, instead of reading the information that is available from many different sources including the AKC. I don't think the AKC is perfect, but it is by far the most reputable dog registry, as well as the Canadian Kennel Club.


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## dborgers (Dec 7, 2011)

Thank God you got him into a good home (yours) where he can get the care and love he deserves. 

Sorry you're going through this, but at least, hopefully, this guy will be shut down. No dog should suffer because of human irresponsibility and negligence.


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## jlwilson (Mar 10, 2011)

Kdowning: As I said, we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I have been working against and researching puppy mill law and issues for a number of years. We have worked with many towns to help them amend their laws so as to dissuade millers from entering their communities. We are hoping that the counties and then the state will do the same as they see the number of people against these places. NO ONE that I know of is trying to stop reputable breeders. NO LEGISLATION has been passed or even suggested that would stop reputable breeders from breeding. In fact, most reputable breeders want the millers gone because they are destroying the breed specifications and creating chronic health issues. The MOST RESTRICTIVE law that I have found is in one town where the number of intact animals allowed on one property is restricted to no more than four animals. The ONLY legislation that has been suggested statewide wants to restrict the number of breeding dogs on one location to 50. If you have ever had a litter of puppies and you are a reputable, caring breeder, you will be sure that the animals have fresh water and food, are properly inoculated and given preventatives for heartworm and fleas, get a lot of socialization (since the first 14 weeks of a dog’s life is when these skills are developed and if not socialized within this timeframe, they may never be sociable), see that they are clean and dry and have appropriate temperatures in which to live, and are vet checked for any possible congenital or health issues that may be apparent. To do all that for one litter is almost more work than a single family, no less one person, can handle. It is costly and very time consuming. To suggest that 200, 300, or more animals can be cared for properly by one family or even with a dozen employees (which never happens) would be virtually impossible. Therefore, the animals are not cared for, are not vetted, are not kept clean and in healthy temperatures, and have only negative socialization. Reputable breeders would never sell to a pet store. They are concerned about the breed and want to know exactly to whom and where their puppies will be going. They will do home checks and vet checks and agree to take back any one of their pups at any time should there be a problem. If they won't do that, they are not reputable breeders. One of the breeders in the last mass breeding facility with which we dealt had a conviction for animal cruelty and was not licensed by AT ALL. However, his animals were licensed by AKC. When contacting them (AKC), NOTHING was done. Their own regulations state that a cruelty convicted person is banned for life. It so happens that his ex-wife is an AKC judge. Hmmmm. The AKC does many good things, but they do not require anything from a breeder to register a pup except for the paperwork to say that the sire and dame were both pedigreed. An AKC or any other registration is not an admission of quality or even truth. Northern Lights was using duplicate papers for more than one dog and incorrect papers for some (like one female came stating that he was a male, and a “one year old puppy” ended up being, according to the vet, about six years old, etc.) I'm just saying that puppy store dogs are not breed or cared for by reputable breeders, and the AKC continues to license these animals and to protect the millers and the pet stores. WHY? Can it be anything but the money? Please go to NYS Citizens Against Puppy Mills at http://www.citizensagainstpuppymills.org/pmamish.php or Prisoners of Greed at http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/. So as not to tie up his thread with all this, anyone wanting more info or links, please contact via a personal email. Thanks.


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