# What is the difference in english cream from american goldens?



## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

Hello,

We have been looking for a golden retriever puppy to buy in october when we move. We have 2 places in mind to purchase a puppy from however I have some questions.

One place says the male and female breeders are american goldens. The second place has the male being a english creme golden retriever and the female being american.

The main question I am wondering is what is the difference between american golden retrievers and english creme golden retrievers and when they are bred togeather what do they look like. If anyone can post pictures of how a female would look and any other information you can provide me in helping choose our puppy. Thank you!


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

They are all golden retrievers but the english goldens are allowed to have a wider range of colors than the american goldens. My Oakly had a British dad and American mom. He is much lighter in color more like his dad. To see the finer points of how the two are judged look for a book called "The Ultimate Golden Retriever" by Valarie Foss.


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

So the english creme/american golden puppy will turn out looking the same as a all american golden? The only different will be the first one will be lighter than the all american one?


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

From what I've learned here, there is no real difference unless the English Dog is an import, then He's just a Golden from England. They are the same breed and same standards. I'll bet the Breeder's you're looking at are speaking strictly color....very blond. My Ike has some very light Golden's in his pedigree, all from this side of the pond.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

There is NO such thing as an "English Creme". Nor a "British White", or "Alpine Golden", etc etc. There are GOLDEN RETRIEVERS. Period. There are slightly different written standards within different countries.
Any breeder in the US who is marketing dogs by colors is preying on people willing to buy into the scam. And that is all it is. Dogs should not be priced by color, or size, or even sex. A Golden Retriever should meet the standard as written in the country in which it was bred.


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Here is a link to the Official Standard of the Breed...

http://www.goldensonly.com/standard_of_the_golden_retriever.htm


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

Where here are the 2 breeders sites I am looking into purchasing from. Maybe I can get some help here to which looks more legit I guess?

http://www.kinshipcompanions.com/
http://thosegoldens.com/


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## colton (Jun 5, 2008)

My Bodhi is a Golden Retriever bred from "British" stock/lines and he is much lighter in colour than the "American" stock/lines, very blonde actually. They are all the same in breed standards and temperament just the colour is lighter. Bodhi looks very white in the photos but he is actually a light caramel colour. 

There is a difference between the show lines and field lines though, with the field lines being more lean and longer legs. All great dogs though and it shouldn't make a difference in price what colour or lines they come from.

Below is what I copied from the UK Standards site:


*Retriever (Golden) Breed Standard*

11-May-062006-05-11


© The Kennel Club - Unauthorised Reproduction of Text and Images Prohibited








The Kennel Club Picture Library - © David Dalton
*General Appearance
*Symmetrical, balanced, active, powerful, level mover; sound with kindly expression.
*Characteristics
*Biddable, intelligent and possessing natural working ability.
*Temperament
*Kindly, friendly and confident.
*Head and Skull
*Balanced and well chiselled, skull broad without coarseness; well set on neck, muzzle powerful, wide and deep. Length of foreface approximately equals length from well defined stop to occiput. Nose preferably black.
*Eyes
*Dark brown, set well apart, dark rims.
*Ears
*Moderate size, set on approximate level with eyes.
*Mouth
*Jaws strong, with a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. upper teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set square to the jaws.
*Neck
*Good length, clean and muscular.
*Forequarters
*Forelegs straight with good bone, shoulders well laid back, long in blade with upper arm of equal length placing legs well under body. Elbows close fitting.
*Body
*Balanced, short-coupled, deep through heart. Ribs deep, well sprung. Level topline.
*Hindquarters
*Loin and legs strong and muscular, good second thighs, well bent stifles. Hocks well let down, straight when viewed from rear, neither turning in nor out. Cow-hocks highly undesirable.
*Feet
*Round and cat-like.
*Tail
*Set on and carried level with back, reaching to hocks, without curl at tip.
*Gait/Movement
*Powerful with good drive. Straight and true in front and rear. Stride long and free with no sign of hackney action in front.
*Coat
*Flat or wavy with good feathering, dense water-resisting undercoat.
*Colour
*Any shade of gold or cream, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only, permissible.
*Size
*Height at withers: dogs: 56-61 cms (22-24 ins); bitches: 51-56 cms (20-22 ins).
*Faults
*Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog.
*Note
*Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum.


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see health clearances on either site...they mention "healthy dogs and pups" but no clearances. That is a red flag for me.


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

paula bedard said:


> Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see health clearances on either site...they mention "healthy dogs and pups" but no clearances. That is a red flag for me.


 Please explain to me what you mean I dont understand?


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Okay, you asked, so...

The Kinship Goldens site - there are 4 litters listed:

1) Asher (http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=193146) x Tula (Carson http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=251444 x Dori http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=253096)

A quick check of the OFA and CERF sites turns up only an OFA heart clearances for Asher. Tula is more difficult because her registered name isn't listed on the page.

2) Asher x Dori (both links listed above)

A check of Dori's information shows no clearance information with either registry.

3) Asher x Nissi (http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=231468)

No clearance information for Nissi.

4) Asher x Risa (http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=179346)

Risa has hip and elbow clearances listed with OFA - http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1268015#animal

I will say that it is possible that these clearances are done and just not listed with either OFA/CERF but there are a LOT of holes there. I would ask this breeder to provide you with copies of all clearances before you put a deposit down.

The "Those Goldens" website - they breed Goldendoodles...that in and of itself would be enough for me to run the other way. In addition, none of the dogs names are on the site so it is impossible to verify clearance information.

If you are really interested in getting a pup, please read these link http://goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=22440 & http://goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=32279 There is tons of valuable information here that can help you get the best pup possible.

Ragtym


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

americangolden said:


> Where here are the 2 breeders sites I am looking into purchasing from. Maybe I can get some help here to which looks more legit I guess?
> 
> http://www.kinshipcompanions.com/
> http://thosegoldens.com/


 
Neither. Kinship Companions are breeding without clearances. Those Goldens are breeding Doodles, marketing "rare" colors, pricing by sex/color, and not doing clearances, and they state right in their purchase contract NO health guarantee.


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

I have a golden retriever that is considered a british creme. His parents were imported. Here is a picture of him. Feel free to email me if you have any question. He is 4 1/2 months old now and his name is Cheyenne. My email address is [email protected]

Kim


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

ragtym said:


> Okay, you asked, so...
> 
> The Kinship Goldens site - there are 4 litters listed:
> 
> ...


 Can you explain to me what "clearance means" I am sorry I don't understand .


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

I agree with what has been posted already about the term "english cream" being a misleading catch phrase that is used to make some light-colored dogs seem like a special brand of golden that is somehow rare and difficult to find. If the dog is English, that just means it has lines that are from kennels in the UK; it doesn't say anything about its color. You could import a puppy directly from England and get a very dark color if you wanted to. The "cream" part of that term just refers to the color. If the preference with breeders and judges in the U.S. were for the very light color, the American-bred dogs would get lighter over the generations as well. So even using the term "english cream" on the website would make me suspicious about the breeders you mentioned. In addition, the lack of clearances or even showing the dogs' registered names would be a big "No" in my mind. If you are interested in getting a puppy from European lines, check out this article and website to help you know what to look for. I hope this helps. 
http://www.starcrowned.com/egnatest/


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

chesneygirl007 said:


> I have a golden retriever that is considered a british creme. His parents were imported. Here is a picture of him. Feel free to email me if you have any question. He is 4 1/2 months old now and his name is Cheyenne.
> 
> Kim


Cheyenne is a cute puppy whose parents may be imported, but he is a Golden Retriever. There is no such thing as British Creme. You will not find that term on any registration paper from any legitimate registering body. He is considered "light golden".


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

Clearances are health screens that should be done before a dog is bred. The four main ones that are recommended by the Golden Retriever Club of America are hips, elbows, and hearts (through the OFA) and eyes (through CERF). There are other clearances such as thyroid and patella that can be done as well. Having these tests done shows that the breeder is making sure his/her dogs are not carrying genetic defects such as a predisposition to hip or elbow dysplasia, heart problems such as SAS, or eye disorders.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Clearances are a series of health tests that any Golden being bred should have BEFORE they are ever bred.

Hips/Elbows - these clearances are done by taking x-rays of these joints and sending them to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) or the OVC (Ontario Veterinary Hospital (???). These clearances check to see if there are any physical abnormalities of these joints. If it's an OFA clearance, the certificate should have a colored background. If it's on a white paper and/or says Preliminary, that is NOT a final clearance. You should see a number beginning with GR-XXXXXXXX and also a rating. For hips, it should be Excellent, Good, or Fair. For elbows, it should say Normal. 

Heart - this clearance should be done by a canine cardiologist. If this is not submitted to the OFA, there is usually a form that states something like "Clear". 

Eyes - this clearance is done by a canine opthalmologist and checks for abnormalities of the eyes. If the paperwork is sent in, CERF (Canine Eye Registration Foundation) issues a certificate with a CERF number that starts with GR-XXXXX. Some breeders don't send in the form but they should still have it and it should have 2 blacked-out circles in the "Normal" eyes section.

If these clearances have been done and submitted to OFA/CERF, you can use the registries' online tools to verify the information.

Responsible breeders do these clearances to help insure that the puppies they produce are as healthy as they can be. Breeders who skip this testing have no real idea what their dogs could be passing on to the pups.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

HaliaGoldens said:


> Clearances are health screens that should be done before a dog is bred. The four main ones that are recommended by the Golden Retriever Club of America are hips, elbows, and hearts (through the OFA) and eyes (through CERF). There are other clearances such as thyroid and patella that can be done as well. Having these tests done shows that the breeder is making sure his/her dogs are not carrying genetic defects such as a predisposition to hip or elbow dysplasia, heart problems such as SAS, or eye disorders.


LOL, the short version versus my long version


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

ragtym said:


> Clearances are a series of health tests that any Golden being bred should have BEFORE they are ever bred.
> 
> Hips/Elbows - these clearances are done by taking x-rays of these joints and sending them to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) or the OVC (Ontario Veterinary Hospital (???). These clearances check to see if there are any physical abnormalities of these joints. If it's an OFA clearance, the certificate should have a colored background. If it's on a white paper and/or says Preliminary, that is NOT a final clearance. You should see a number beginning with GR-XXXXXXXX and also a rating. For hips, it should be Excellent, Good, or Fair. For elbows, it should say Normal.
> 
> ...


 Thank you for the clarification I get it now.


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

ragtym said:


> LOL, the short version versus my long version


Yes, I was feeling lazy so gave the rather condensed version.


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Cheyenne is a cute puppy whose parents may be imported, but he is a Golden Retriever. There is no such thing as British Creme. You will not find that term on any registration paper from any legitimate registering body. He is considered "light golden".


 
Yes I know. When I registered him I had to check light golden. There are all color of what they consider to be the english goldens. I have a real white dog, whereas my girlfriends dog is a light creme color. It just depends on what you want. Cheyenne's mom was a light creme golden and his dad was pure white.

Kim


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

I don't know how to go about finding a good golden breeder in my area of wisconsin (sheboygan) north of milwaukee by about 45 min. Anyone have any info about buying goldens around here please chime in thanks .


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

http://www.grca.org/puppyreferrals.asp

This is a good place to start.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

chesneygirl007 said:


> his dad was pure white.
> 
> Kim


No, he wasn't. Pure white Golden Retrievers are a genetic impossibility. If you want proof that he isn't white, hold a piece of copy paper up next to him. I guarantee you that he isn't the same color.

This is your puppy's sire 










Definitely NOT pure white...


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> http://www.grca.org/puppyreferrals.asp
> 
> This is a good place to start.


Thank you for the link!


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I don't understand the new rage for lighter and lighter goldens. In fact they are SO light they aren't GOLD!!!! Isn't that how they got to be GOLDEN retrievers? Of course many don't retrieve anymore either.
It is sad to me. Soon, we won't even recognize our own dog breed.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

chesneygirl007 said:


> Yes I know. When I registered him I had to check light golden. There are all color of what they consider to be the english goldens. I have a real white dog, whereas my girlfriends dog is a light creme color. It just depends on what you want. Cheyenne's mom was a light creme golden and his dad was pure white.
> 
> Kim


Many English Golden Retrievers are lighter in color than what we tend to see here in the US, but certainly not all. Look at the winner at Crufts and he is a beautiful shade of true gold. Even the European standards only allow a few white hairs.
It always amazes me just how quickly the public bought into the entire "British Creme" thing, even when most were not even imported.


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

I just want a real golden golden if that makes any sence haha. I never knew this would be so much work just trying to find a reputable breeder.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I'm sure through the GRCA you will find a good breeder who does clearances and has GOLD goldens!


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## Solas Goldens (Nov 10, 2007)

Hi...Jake & Hailey are American Goldens, my baby Bella is 1/2 & 1/2. As far as I can tell they eat and poop the same! All kidding aside I was told English Goldens have fewer health issues. I don't know if that is true and it didn't have any bearing on my decision to purchase Bella. I liked the way her parents looked, and their qualifacations.


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

I wish it was easier to find a good breeder in the city I am living in. Everyone here has such beautiful goldens!


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## Celeigh (Nov 29, 2007)

I still think this photo is the best illustration of the Golden Retriever color range. What you see is 10 Golden Retrievers. Not American or English or Alpine, just 10 Golden Retrievers. If you are going to pay more for any one of them, make sure it's because it's from a good breeding program not because of what end of the color spectrum it's from. It's fine to prefer one end of the spectrum over the other, but there is nothing that makes one color more valuable or rare or special than another. 

Color fads come and go. Who knows, maybe in 20 years, we'll all be discussing the rare "Ruby Retriever" that everyone is clammoring for!


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

Celeigh said:


> I still think this photo is the best illustration of the Golden Retriever color range. What you see is 10 Golden Retrievers. Not American or English or Alpine, just 10 Golden Retrievers. If you are going to pay more for any one of them, make sure it's because it's from a good breeding program not because of what end of the color spectrum it's from. It's fine to prefer one end of the spectrum over the other, but there is nothing that makes one color more valuable or rare or special than another.
> 
> Color fads come and go. Who knows, maybe in 20 years, we'll all be discussing the rare "Ruby Retriever" that everyone is clammoring for!


 Awesome picture and thanks for the information that will come in handy in knowing .


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

> *What is the difference in english cream from american goldens?*


About $1,500 :FIREdevil :roflmao:


But seriously there is no such thing as a "Rare English Cream" Golden Retriever in the U.S., they are all just Golden Retrievers. Some are light, some are dark, some are in between.


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Maybe some people dont like the almost white goldens. But yes they do look white. Maybe not pure white but they are darn close. I think the color of the coat against the black in their paws and face make it look like such a beautiful dog. And yes I did go looking for the lightest color but that was my preferance. I have had 2 english golden retrievers that were golden in color and I wanted a lighter color cause that is what I wanted. Yes they are more expensive but I wanted what I wanted. Beside in NJ it dont matter if its american or english they are both expensive for a good breeder around her.

Kim


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

There is a difference in structure and hair texture from English and American in my opinion. The difference is not just color.

I like the American Stucture but love the cream...ok...VERY LIGHT Golden color that is more common in Europe. Since I've been on the forum I've taken a great likeing for the deep mahogany as well...


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## mdoats (Jun 7, 2007)

If you're interested in reading the back threads about the whole American vs. English debate, I created a post with links to all of the old threads about this issue.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=42388


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

chesneygirl007 said:


> Maybe some people dont like the almost white goldens. But yes they do look white. Maybe not pure white but they are darn close. I think the color of the coat against the black in their paws and face make it look like such a beautiful dog. And yes I did go looking for the lightest color but that was my preferance. I have had 2 english golden retrievers that were golden in color and I wanted a lighter color cause that is what I wanted. Yes they are more expensive but I wanted what I wanted. Beside in NJ it dont matter if its american or english they are both expensive for a good breeder around her.
> 
> Kim


 
This is not really about liking or not liking any particular color. It is about what is correct to the standard, and the fact that color should not be a priority when selecting a Golden Retriever - health, temperament, and correct structure should come first. It is also about the fact that marketing dogs as being somehow "rare", or more desireable because they are a particular color, and charging exhorbitant amounts of money for them, is wrong. But, as long as the uneducated, unsuspecting public continues to buy into it, it will continue. By very virtue of its name, a GOLDEN RETRIEVER should be exactly that, and the standards allow for various shades of lustrous gold. Not white. Not "British Creme", not black :doh:.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Pointgold said:


> This is not really about liking or not liking any particular color. It is about what is correct to the standard, and the fact that color should not be a priority when selecting a Golden Retriever - health, temperament, and correct structure should come first. It is also about the fact that marketing dogs as being somehow "rare", or more desireable because they are a particular color, and charging exhorbitant amounts of money for them, is wrong. But, as long as the uneducated, unsuspecting public continues to buy into it, it will continue. By very virtue of its name, a GOLDEN RETRIEVER should be exactly that, and the standards allow for various shades of lustrous gold. Not white. Not "British Creme", not black :doh:.


The thing is...knowlegable, educated people are still choosing to pay more money and get a color they prefer. Perhaps the akc should change the standard to the color standard that holds true overseas...which does include "cream".


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Lucky's mom said:


> The thing is...knowlegable, educated people are still choosing to pay more money and get a color they prefer. Perhaps the akc should change the standard to the color standard that holds true overseas...which does include "cream".


 
I disagree with this - I don't believe that people who are truly knowlegeable and educated about Golden Retrievers will pay more for color . If they truly are, then they know that there is absolutely no reason to pay more for a dog because of it's color, and would certainly know not to pay more for a dog that is marketed as being somehow rare, or more valuable when it is not. 

Our standard actually does allow for cream, by definition - cream is "pale yellow to yellowish white." In our standard, if taken literally, truly "cream" dogs might be allowed, and have in fact won here in the US, albeit less frequently than those dogs who are truly gold. Our standard states that "extremely pale or extremely dark" is "undesirable", but not a DQ. Even in Europe white is disallowed. It is the Parent Club, not the AKC, that would recommend changes in the standard, and personally, I would not support it. Golden Retrievers should be gold. Whether light gold or dark gold, they should be a shade of gold. As they stand now, AKC registration slips allow for Light Gold, Gold, and Dark Gold. That covers the spectrum, while still being gold.


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

In Nj the color matter isnt more expensive by much. I know if its full english its a bit more than the american but not by much. On the east coast all goldens are expensive. I chose a good breeder that met everythign I wanted in a breeder and she had the type I desired and that is all I care about. Each person has its own particular color of dog or type of dog they want. I fell in love with my english golden the minute I saw them. I prefer the english over the american but I have one of each. Its a free country and everyone has there right to speak or buy which ever one they want and I will buy another one at some point. 

Kim


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## GramercyLily (Aug 19, 2008)

Debles said:


> I don't understand the new rage for lighter and lighter goldens. In fact they are SO light they aren't GOLD!!!!


Lily is definitely platinum. That's why she cost so much. 

Ok, before the flames start -- I am KIDDING. As a previous poster mentioned, well bred dogs on the East Coast (and in the greater New York area in particular) are just not cheap -- no matter what the color.


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## colton (Jun 5, 2008)

Maybe it's an American thing but here in Australia all goldens cost the same....from good breeders OF COURSE.......colour doesn't matter. Bodhi is very light in colour but on his registration papers he is classified as "Gold". I agree with others here I think some American "Breeders" are just cashing in on peoples ignorance.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I copied and pasted my reply to a similar thread on this subject. Just to lazy to type it all out again.
I wrote

They are the same breed. The notion that English Golddens are lighter in color is not true. There are dark goldens as well as cream ones. If you go to The Golden Retriever Club's (National golden club of Great Britan)website - http://www.thegoldenretrieverclub.co.uk/ - you will see a photo of the dog who won IGL Championship in 2006. He is hardly cream in color. As for the comparisons between the American and English breed standards stated on the website above they are totally interpretational. If you read them closely and compare you will find mostly that the American standard goes into more depth to describe the same thing. Also as for height when they compare the two standards they left out that the American standard states "Dogs up to one inch above or below standard size should be proportionately penalized. Deviation in height of more than one inch from the standard shall disqualify." So the allowable standards are much more similar than they would lead you to believe. From what I am aware our English (Swedish, German, Norwegian, Australian etc) peers are struggling with the same heallth issues that the Americans are. 
The reason folks tend to think there is a difference IS color. That is due to the fact that for years very pale Goldens were not in favor in the US but were accepted in Europe. So there were two reasons to import these cream dogs. First was because as a breeder you truly liked these dogs. The other, which I feel is more prevelant today, is as a marketing gimmick. As the very pale golden is becoming moore accepted by American breeders it is the fact that an easy way to market them them is as "Rare British Cremes" to maximize the monetary rewards. 
If you are interested in the lighter color look for breeders who have impported dogs that are either from champion lines or are themselves champions and who are active in dogs other than just breeding. These are normally the folks who are breeding to "better their lines" and activelly persue proof they are succeeding. Those who import or get a pup from someone who has imported and then is only interested in breeding "rare British Cremes" and charge considerably more money for these pups are only in it for the money.
I know this reply will upset some folks but this is my honest opinion and nothing more.

If you are considering getting a pup be sure to check out http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/...ad.php?t=22440 for a list of things to ask any and every breeder before purchasing a pup. Good Luck!!


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> I disagree with this - I don't believe that people who are truly knowlegeable and educated about Golden Retrievers will pay more for color . If they truly are, then they know that there is absolutely no reason to pay more for a dog because of it's color, and would certainly know not to pay more for a dog that is marketed as being somehow rare, or more valuable when it is not.
> 
> Our standard actually does allow for cream, by definition - cream is "pale yellow to yellowish white." In our standard, if taken literally, truly "cream" dogs might be allowed, and have in fact won here in the US, albeit less frequently than those dogs who are truly gold. Our standard states that "extremely pale or extremely dark" is "undesirable", but not a DQ. Even in Europe white is disallowed. It is the Parent Club, not the AKC, that would recommend changes in the standard, and personally, I would not support it. Golden Retrievers should be gold. Whether light gold or dark gold, they should be a shade of gold. As they stand now, AKC registration slips allow for Light Gold, Gold, and Dark Gold. That covers the spectrum, while still being gold.


:appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl:


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## GramercyLily (Aug 19, 2008)

Hi Americangolden,

One last comment.  Lily, our British Cream/Light Golden (whatever you prefer to call her) has been a joy since we got her. So......as long as you've done your research and find a good breeder that you're comfortable with, go for it. 

As a side note to others regarding the "rarity" of the Light Goldens. We live in NYC which has a population of 8 million people gathered from all over the world. Every single person asks, "What kind of dog is that?" When we say she's a Golden Retriever, everyone remarks that they have NEVER seen a retriever like that. This leads us to believe that the lighter dogs are rarer here in the states. So, is it wrong for a US breeder to adverstise them are rare? Who knows. I'm not going to argue given that we have been blessed with an adorable little pup!

Here's a picture of Lily at 6 months. Clearly she is running the show at our house!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I am asked all the time what kind of dogs I have, and they are by no means light. People ask, and then say they have NEVER seen a Golden like that - their "uncle/cousin/neighbor has a Golden and it doesn't look like that - he's WAY bigger/WAY smaller, is WAY redder/WAY lighter, yada yada yada..." It's not because lighter is rare, because there are plenty of very light dogs around now, it's because people are not used to seeing a dog that meets, or is even close to, the standard.

If a person has purchased a dog and was told by the breeder that it is "British Creme", I'm sorry, but I cannot call that a "good breeder". I am happy for those who are happy with their dogs, no matter what they look like, but cannot justify them having paid more for some that is simply a marketing ploy.


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## GramercyLily (Aug 19, 2008)

Pointgold - why do you always assume that all breeders that use the term "British Cream" charge more for these dogs than red/ gold Goldens? This is a sweeping generalization and very far from our reality. You don't do any justice to your "case" by making snap judgements about breeders based on terminology. 

And to clarify, when we are told "we have never seen a dog like that" - and we explain she is a Golden Retriever, its followed with "wow, I have never seen a *white* Golden." (Lily is not pure white... but she is very close.)


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

Well we went to see the puppies tonight and I was suprised the pup we looked at was the darkest one out've all of them. She was a really beautiful golden color but some of the other ones were pretty light. The mother is a little over a year old which is why she doesn't have the clearance but both parents parents have it if that makes sence so would it be ok to purcahse this little girl from them? Just making sure this sounds alright? Any quick responces would be great thanks!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

americangolden said:


> Well we went to see the puppies tonight and I was suprised the pup we looked at was the darkest one out've all of them. She was a really beautiful golden color but some of the other ones were pretty light. The mother is a little over a year old which is why she doesn't have the clearance but both parents parents have it if that makes sence so would it be ok to purcahse this little girl from them? Just making sure this sounds alright? Any quick responces would be great thanks!


No....I wouldn't. If I'm going to pay alot of money for any color golden its going to be from a breeder that cares enough to wait til the mother is 2 and all clearances are done. THAT is one reason why breeders ask for the high sums. If the breeder is asking a high sum and not doing that then you are getting ripped off in my opinion.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

GramercyLily said:


> Pointgold - why do you always assume that all breeders that use the term "British Cream" charge more for these dogs than red/ gold Goldens? This is a sweeping generalization and very far from our reality. You don't do any justice to your "case" by making snap judgements about breeders based on terminology.
> 
> And to clarify, when we are told "we have never seen a dog like that" - and we explain she is a Golden Retriever, its followed with "wow, I have never seen a *white* Golden." (Lily is not pure white... but she is very close.)


I'm really not assuming anything. The majority of breeders who are marketing Golden Retrievers as being "British Cream/Creme" _are _charging more for them - all you have to do is look at all the websites out there and you can see that. And terminology used is very telling. I've "been in Goldens" for many years, and have been a member of the GRCA since 1987. The parent club of the breed maintains the same stance as I do. When a breeder uses a term that is, for all intents and purposes, a "made up" name, one not recognized either in the US or the UK, it says a lot about that breeder. 
In your prior post, you didn't use the word "white", but I also hear it from people who see extremely light dogs. Your Lily is a pretty girl, I have nothing against light dogs, or dark dogs, I am of the mindset that color is the least important concern. A good Golden is a good Golden - light or dark. And a large number of the general public have not seen "good" Goldens, but only Goldens so far out of the standard, and so lacking in breed type as to not even be recognizable as Goldens. Because of that, they don't recognize a "good" Golden for what it is.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

americangolden said:


> Well we went to see the puppies tonight and I was suprised the pup we looked at was the darkest one out've all of them. She was a really beautiful golden color but some of the other ones were pretty light. The mother is a little over a year old which is why she doesn't have the clearance but both parents parents have it if that makes sence so would it be ok to purcahse this little girl from them? Just making sure this sounds alright? Any quick responces would be great thanks!


 
Was this an intentional or accidental breeding? How old is the sire, and did he have all his clearances? Did you see the clearances for the grandparents? If not, did you get their names so that you can confirm that they exist?


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Was this an intentional or accidental breeding? How old is the sire, and did he have all his clearances? Did you see the clearances for the grandparents? If not, did you get their names so that you can confirm that they exist?


 I am pretty sure accident. She did say their names but I don't remember them off hand. She said she could bring the dogs there so we could meet them they are currently at her partner breeders place in the next city over.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

I wouldn't personally buy from the breeder you are mentioning. Regardless of the ethics of using terms like "British Creme" or the like, there's lots of red flags. A dog should never be bred before 2 years old when clearances can be completed. Yes, accidents happen, but if that is the case the breeder should make that clear and not try to pass this off as a legitimate breeding. Unfortunately even though the mother's dam and sire (parents) have their clearances it is no guarantee that this dog is free from hereditary concerns. As with all species, some traits are recessive and complex allowing for faults/diseases/issues to be passed along despite clearances. Think of these health clearances as stacking the deck or playing the odds at a racetrack... chances may be good, but there's no such thing as a "sure thing." If it were me, I'd want all the odds I could muster in my favor. Unfortunately, as hooked on instant gratification as we are, the best way to jump into the puppy pool is slowly and carefully. It may take a few months, but in the long run you will be better off for it. Visit the breeder referral site someone posted earlier and try to search out some dog shows in your area... both are great ways to network with people who are in the breeding "business" for the right reasons.

Julie and Jersey


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> No....I wouldn't. If I'm going to pay alot of money for any color golden its going to be from a breeder that cares enough to wait til the mother is 2 and all clearances are done. THAT is one reason why breeders ask for the high sums. If the breeder is asking a high sum and not doing that then you are getting ripped off in my opinion.


 She only wants 650 for her.


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

Jersey's Mom said:


> I wouldn't personally buy from the breeder you are mentioning. Regardless of the ethics of using terms like "British Creme" or the like, there's lots of red flags. A dog should never be bred before 2 years old when clearances can be completed. Yes, accidents happen, but if that is the case the breeder should make that clear and not try to pass this off as a legitimate breeding. Unfortunately even though the mother's dam and sire (parents) have their clearances it is no guarantee that this dog is free from hereditary concerns. As with all species, some traits are recessive and complex allowing for faults/diseases/issues to be passed along despite clearances. Think of these health clearances as stacking the deck or playing the odds at a racetrack... chances may be good, but there's no such thing as a "sure thing." If it were me, I'd want all the odds I could muster in my favor. Unfortunately, as hooked on instant gratification as we are, the best way to jump into the puppy pool is slowly and carefully. It may take a few months, but in the long run you will be better off for it. Visit the breeder referral site someone posted earlier and try to search out some dog shows in your area... both are great ways to network with people who are in the breeding "business" for the right reasons.
> 
> Julie and Jersey


All their dogs seemed very healthy


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## princessgolden (Aug 11, 2008)

Can everyone stop arguing about the definition of a color? I know people feel strong about this, but grow up. I'm sure a lot of you are adults here. Whether someone defines a Golen by "english creme" or something else, let them do as they please. You may feel it is not the right terminology..BUT IS IT REALLY THAT BIG OF A DEAL?!?!!? You define it as you want. Obviously everyone is going to have their opinions and it's not going to change.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

It's hard to say if $650 is "a lot" unless someone is familiar with average pricing in your region. Here on the east coast that would be VERY cheap, but I have a feeling that in the midwest (Wisconsin, right?) well bred dogs from reputable breeders probably aren't much more than what this breeder's asking. It's something to look into with your research... get an idea of the going rate for your area and use that as a measuring stick.


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

All pups i have seem have gone between 800-1200ish. Yes wisconsin sheboygan county.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I agree with Julie. There are a lot of red flags here, and for it would be taking a big risk. $650.00 is a lot for an accidental breeding, out of uncleared parents.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

princessgolden said:


> Can everyone stop arguing about the definition of a color? I know people feel strong about this, but grow up. I'm sure a lot of you are adults here. Whether someone defines a Golen by "english creme" or something else, let them do as they please. You may feel it is not the right terminology..BUT IS IT REALLY THAT BIG OF A DEAL?!?!!? You define it as you want. Obviously everyone is going to have their opinions and it's not going to change.


The topic is a very current one among breeders and fanciers. I think that if you don't care for the debate, you might consider not accessing the thread. It's a valid discussion. 

And, welcome to the Forum!


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

I mean besides the mother not being 2 yet what is wrong if the stud, studs parents and the mothers parents are all cleared and everything?


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## princessgolden (Aug 11, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> The topic is a very current one among breeders and fanciers. I think that if you don't care for the debate, you might consider not accessing the thread. It's a valid discussion.
> 
> And, welcome to the Forum!


 
I think that everyone is entitled to their opinion. Although I feel you should start your own thread if you are going "argue" between other members about this topic to attempt to prove you are correct.

Thanks for the welcome!!!!!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

americangolden said:


> I mean besides the mother not being 2 yet what is wrong if the stud, studs parents and the mothers parents are all cleared and everything?


By "all cleared", it should mean hips/elbows, cardiac and eyes. I'd want to see at least 3 generations, and preferably 5, with all clearances on both sides of the pedigree. Any uncleared dogs increase the risk of any one or all of the hereditary diseases being screened for of being produced.


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> By "all cleared", it should mean hips/elbows, cardiac and eyes. I'd want to see at least 3 generations, and preferably 5, with all clearances on both sides of the pedigree. Any uncleared dogs increase the risk of any one or all of the hereditary diseases being screened for of being produced.


 She told us she'd be happy to show us as well as show us the parents parents of the dogs etc. The only thing that I am seeing that is wrong is the dog isn't 2 years old yet but all the puppies look beautiful!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

princessgolden said:


> Can everyone stop arguing about the definition of a color? I know people feel strong about this, but grow up. I'm sure a lot of you are adults here. Whether someone defines a Golen by "english creme" or something else, let them do as they please. You may feel it is not the right terminology..BUT IS IT REALLY THAT BIG OF A DEAL?!?!!? You define it as you want. Obviously everyone is going to have their opinions and it's not going to change.


Welcome to the forum.
My problem is not with the marketing gimmick or terminology, it is more with the charging considerably more money that is wrong. And to me IT REALLY IS THAT A BIG DEAL. As you stated everyone is going to have their opinion but I hope that some are changed to see what this group of breeders are doing.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

princessgolden said:


> I think that everyone is entitled to their opinion. Although I feel you should start your own thread if you are going "argue" between other members about this topic to attempt to prove you are correct.
> 
> Thanks for the welcome!!!!!


:scratchch All of the discussion has been relevant to the thread topic. I believe that I have been civil and polite in expressing my opinions and ideas on the subject, and have not only a right to do so, but some basis for the opinions that I adhere to.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

americangolden said:


> She told us she'd be happy to show us as well as show us the parents parents of the dogs etc. The only thing that I am seeing that is wrong is the dog isn't 2 years old yet but all the puppies look beautiful!


 
Please ask to SEE the OFA clearances for hips/elbows, cardiac, and CERF eyes _before _committing to the purchase. It is all too common to be told that they exist, only to learn later (when the dog that you purchased is diagnosed with a problem) that they in fact did not. 
She may be "only" asking $650, but you'll forget the word "only" if you are faced with veterinary bills of several thousand dollars to repair or treat a hereditary disease.


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Please ask to SEE the OFA clearances for hips/elbows, cardiac, and CERF eyes _before _committing to the purchase. It is all too common to be told that they exist, only to learn later (when the dog that you purchased is diagnosed with a problem) that they in fact did not.
> She may be "only" asking $650, but you'll forget the word "only" if you are faced with veterinary bills of several thousand dollars to repair or treat a hereditary disease.


 True true, thank you for your helpful advice!:wave:


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## princessgolden (Aug 11, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> :scratchch All of the discussion has been relevant to the thread topic. I believe that I have been civil and polite in expressing my opinions and ideas on the subject, and have not only a right to do so, but some basis for the opinions that I adhere to.


Is it really worth the time and effort to try and persuade someone who isn't going to change their opinion though? And to down your maturity level just by having to prove your "right"?

With that being said, this is my last post to you because I know you'd have a response to anything I say.  Have a wonderful night  :wave:


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

americangolden said:


> She told us she'd be happy to show us as well as show us the parents parents of the dogs etc. The only thing that I am seeing that is wrong is the dog isn't 2 years old yet but all the puppies look beautiful!


Although it is not the best situation it may not be terrible if it is as presented. If it were me I would ask to see the actual certificates or if they registered with OFA their registration numbers to check the OFA database. I would also want to know the names/registration numbers of the other dogs they have bred so I could verify they were all also cleared health and age wise. This could also hopefully be done via OFA's database hopefully. If ALL checked out, I would assume it was an accident and as much as I hate to hear it, it does happen to even some very good, responsible breeders. If the story did not check out I would not feel I could trust the breeder on any point and would not take a pup from them, that litter or any other, for any price. But that is just the way I am.
But please understand that a breeder stating "my vet checked my dogs hips, elbows, eyes and heart and said they are all fine" is NOT a clearance. 
Good luck with what ever decision you eventually come to.


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

GramercyLily said:


> Hi Americangolden,
> 
> One last comment. Lily, our British Cream/Light Golden (whatever you prefer to call her) has been a joy since we got her. So......as long as you've done your research and find a good breeder that you're comfortable with, go for it.
> 
> ...


 
Hi 

I totally agree with what you said. I get the same thing here in NJ. They ask me what kind of dog it is and I tell them and everyone tells me they have never seen a dog that color. My Cheyenne looks a lot like lilly and my pup is 4 1/2 months.

Kim


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## GramercyLily (Aug 19, 2008)

AmericanGolden, pulling the trigger on a dog is really nerve racking and it's easy to just pick up that pup, especially once you've seen him/her. In my earlier post, I wrote that if you feel comfortable with the breeder, just go for it. That being said, I think the other members have some very valid points here.


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## Celeigh (Nov 29, 2007)

americangolden said:


> All their dogs seemed very healthy





americangolden said:


> I mean besides the mother not being 2 yet what is wrong if the stud, studs parents and the mothers parents are all cleared and everything?





americangolden said:


> She told us she'd be happy to show us as well as show us the parents parents of the dogs etc. The only thing that I am seeing that is wrong is the dog isn't 2 years old yet but all the puppies look beautiful!


Hi americangolden!

First I'd like to say good for you for asking lots of questions before getting your puppy. I think a lot of people just see one of those little puppy faces staring up at them and they're in love with no questions asked!

One thing I wanted to point out is that clearances do not guarantee healthy puppies. Parents with clearances can have puppies who have less than great hips, hearts etc. That is where a good health guarantee offered by a reputable breeder comes in. Having said that your odds of getting a puppy with a congenital defect is higher when the parents do not have health clearances and may possess hidden defects that are easily passed on to offspring. It's a gamble that you may win, but you might not. And what a heartbreaker it is for people who fall in love with a puppy who develops health problems. Things like hip dysplasia may not show up for a couple of years, so just looking at a dog isn't going to tell you anything. The same with heart defects, eyes, elbows, etc.

Wishing you good luck in finding the puppy of your dreams!


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## Champ (Jun 10, 2006)

I have always thought the english creme goldens are much lighter, almost white? But maybe I am wrong.


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## DUSTYRD2 (Feb 28, 2007)

princessgolden said:


> Is it really worth the time and effort to try and persuade someone who isn't going to change their opinion though? And to down your maturity level just by having to prove your "right"?
> 
> With that being said, this is my last post to you because I know you'd have a response to anything I say.  Have a wonderful night  :wave:


If and when the day ever comes that you spend considerably more time on this board, more than your 5 posts, you may come to realize that the people responding to this OP are some of the most knowledgeable breeders and golden owners on the north american continent. Their "opinions" as you call it are in fact KNOWLEDGE and are based on considerable years of experience with the breed, along with all heartache that comes with it too. Many of them also quietly do rescue of those dogs that come from breedings such as the one under discussion. The badly bred dogs that some poor soul got suckered into buying with fancy marketing techniques and now are facing thousands in vet bills that they just cannot afford. 

The mere fact that you are targetting only ONE of the posters speaks volumes to the rest of us about where you're coming from. 

We're all here for one thing, to share and LEARN about our beloved breed so let's get back to it!

To the rest of you, I apologize for the rant, but I'm just sick and tired of this type of "you know what".


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## akrein62 (Nov 17, 2007)

Hi americangolden,

If you're still interested in checking out breeders in Wisconsin, check out:

http://www.dichigoldens.com/

They are located between Portage and Wisconsin Dells. They are a first class operation, but have quite a waiting list. We first visited them in April and are hoping for a puppy from their next litter. If you do visit them, you will show you the clearances for all of their dogs and their lineage. I recall they had 5 generations of history on most, if not all of their dogs.

Andy


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## OurShen (Aug 30, 2008)

:agree::agree::agree::appl:


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

DUSTYRD2 said:


> If and when the day ever comes that you spend considerably more time on this board, more than your 5 posts, you may come to realize that the people responding to this OP are some of the most knowledgeable breeders and golden owners on the north american continent. Their "opinions" as you call it are in fact KNOWLEDGE and are based on considerable years of experience with the breed, along with all heartache that comes with it too. Many of them also quietly do rescue of those dogs that come from breedings such as the one under discussion. The badly bred dogs that some poor soul got suckered into buying with fancy marketing techniques and now are facing thousands in vet bills that they just cannot afford.
> 
> The mere fact that you are targetting only ONE of the posters speaks volumes to the rest of us about where you're coming from.
> 
> ...



I so agree and also agree with Pointgold and her right to share her knowledge. I don't see Americangolden , the person who started the thread,
complaining.

Americangolden,

I have experienced what we are discussiing here in regards to health. My goldens came from a breeder recommended by the GRCA 9 years ago. She showed me clearances by her vet and not by the OFA. The sire 9 years ago had all health clearances. My boy Selka from that litter is pretty much perfect so far (9).

Four years later I wanted a pup from the same breeder. For reasons I don't know , she went with a different sire in Ohio(prior sire was in Maine) The sire's breeder had some clearances but now that my 5 year old has developed hypothyroid and an eye disease unique to goldens, I found out the sire's grandfather had cataracts and there were other eye problems in the father who is still being used at stud. My boy's treatment has been expensive and he still could eventually lose his eyes from glaucoma/eye tumors or hemorrhages. My breeder says she trusted the sire's word and didn't get the proper clearances on all the sire's pedigree.

Of course I love my goldens and would not trade Gunner who has the health issues . But would I make a different decision 5 years ago if I knew what I know now? YES! and I paid $650.

Just because a breeder is nice and the dogs look healthy: ii isn't enough for me anymore. Good Luck!


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Well all i can say is i will never buy from a back yard breeder or pet shop again thats for sure. I ended up getting amber my black labrador from a pet shop she lied through her teeth. Not only that i had a thought go through my mind that Amber wasn't even a purebred labrador. Amber had a small head,small eyes,body on it like a staffy and feet like a lab. Amber was also very fussy with food which isn't normal for the breed. She also wasn't very smart or intelligent either. Also at 16 weeks old amber weighed 9.6kgs which seems small for a lab at that age, Where Shelley my golden at that same age was 15kgs.What i'm getting at is just cause this person says that there puppies are purebred they may not be. I've seen pictures of golden cross labradors and they look just like purebred goldens, I also meet one in real life. This is why i want pedigree papers with my puppies, I also go to a reputable breeder. Here in australia it is possible to get the hips,elbows,eyes etc tested at 12months old but most breeders wait till 2 years old. If this was an accidental mating does this person own both mum & dad? Also does mum & dad have registration papers? Just seems fishy to me that a purebred male golden ended up breeding with a female purebred golden accidently.


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## americangolden (Aug 11, 2008)

Thanks for all the information everyone is bringing forth to me. I really do appreciate it and please if you have more things to talk about do so I enjoy reading everything. I am just asking all these questions because I want to be forsure this is the right puppy for us. I know all puppies are so cute and it's hard to say no to them but like a lot of you have been telling me I don't want to find out a few years later that my baby has health problems etc.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Please be aware that if you are buying an 'English' (should be British) bred golden then the British standard is slightly different. Many breeders over here are horrified that some dogs of these lines are being bred from on such commercial lines and the puppies sold at very high prices. I hate the thought of dogs descended from my dogs being in these homes and I would say listen to the experienced American breeders about health clearance. British dogs carry dark lines as well as pale as they are described over here. Annef


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

americangolden said:


> Well we went to see the puppies tonight and I was suprised the pup we looked at was the darkest one out've all of them. She was a really beautiful golden color but some of the other ones were pretty light. The mother is a little over a year old which is why she doesn't have the clearance but both parents parents have it if that makes sence so would it be ok to purcahse this little girl from them? Just making sure this sounds alright? Any quick responces would be great thanks!


No. She's only a year old, which means she's too young to have clearances, which means she is not even developed completely yet. Run, don't walk away. there are many breeders here on this board who are doing it the right way. I'm sure they will be able to direct you to someone they know and trust who lives near you. Just let us know where you live.


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## 4thegolden (Jul 18, 2009)

ThoseGoldens are good breeders and so are the Kinshipgoldens too. Just because things arent on the websites it does mean they don't exist. Before judging- people should do some investigation and not jump onto some forum to ask others who aren't truly familiar. Shame on those who discriminate against the breeders who they dont even know. As for doodles and running away from a breeder who makes those. If you arent looking to buy a doodle then dont worry about it. Health clearances and guarantees are great too.... but so are breeders who also CARE about the puppies and provide EXTRA TLC in addition to that.... which these two breeders do! Shame shame shame!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

4thegolden said:


> ThoseGoldens are good breeders and so are the Kinshipgoldens too. Just because things arent on the websites it does mean they don't exist. Before judging- people should do some investigation and not jump onto some forum to ask others who aren't truly familiar. Shame on those who discriminate against the breeders who they dont even know. As for doodles and running away from a breeder who makes those. If you arent looking to buy a doodle then dont worry about it. Health clearances and guarantees are great too.... but so are breeders who also CARE about the puppies and provide EXTRA TLC in addition to that.... which these two breeders do! Shame shame shame!


 
WELCOME TO GRF! :wavey:


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> WELCOME TO GRF! :wavey:


 
Or, maybe "welcome back"...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

4thegolden said:


> ThoseGoldens are good breeders and so are the Kinshipgoldens too. Just because things arent on the websites it does mean they don't exist. Before judging- people should do some investigation and not jump onto some forum to ask others who aren't truly familiar. Shame on those who discriminate against the breeders who they dont even know. As for doodles and running away from a breeder who makes those. If you arent looking to buy a doodle then dont worry about it. Health clearances and guarantees are great too.... but so are breeders who also CARE about the puppies and provide EXTRA TLC in addition to that.... which these two breeders do! Shame shame shame!


 
CARE and EXTRA TLC means little if the genetic health of the dogs is not there, and without doing clearances, it is a great risk that it is not. 
And if a good breeder is doing clearances, there is no reason that they would not advertise it, and they would be easily verifed on the appropriate databases.


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## ManyQs (Feb 20, 2009)

I have two Golden Retrievers (both dogs parents were imported from Europe). I will say they are English Golden Retrievers because when I am out with them many people stop me to ask what type dogs they are. If I say Golden Retrievers they look at me like I am nuts. I explain they are golden retrievers but these may have lighter coats and they don't normally get as large. However, I am sure this can vary as with all breeds. All in all they act just like golden retrievers, some days you laugh at them, some days you know they know better than to do some of the things they do, some days you want their energy to run out but every day you love them and think how empty the day would be without them.


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## 4thegolden (Jul 18, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> CARE and EXTRA TLC means little if the genetic health of the dogs is not there, and without doing clearances, it is a great risk that it is not.
> And if a good breeder is doing clearances, there is no reason that they would not advertise it, and they would be easily verifed on the appropriate databases.


Its understandable that you need the clearances. I am not disputing that. What I am saying is that you should not go around saying that a breeder is a bad one when you, yourself, don't really know. I have checked out their website and see there are clearances being done, health guarantees, and they also provide some very good care to their dogs...not just for breeding. I see they also provide a refund for their puppies being fixed. I don't see too many doing that. What I am saying is. Don't tell people some is bad or run from them. Tell them what to look for, what to ask. And before you label a breeder as a bad one.. do your own homework, find out if you know what you are talking about....that's what you tell others. 
I have visited several breeders. Breeders who've had the clearances and gave a health guarantee...but the puppies lived in a haylined cell and were given the bare minimums.... those types of breeders who meet the "requirements" still aren't decent in my opinion. On the otherhand, the kinship and the thosegoldens breeders do their requirements and then some.... now that's worth talking about


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

4thegolden said:


> I have checked out their website and see there are clearances being done, .........
> On the otherhand, the kinship and the thosegoldens breeders do their requirements and then some.... now that's worth talking about


 
As long as you think it is worth talking about please show me where on on their websites you see that at kinship clearances are being done.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

Went to the second web site, can somebody tell me what a sugar doodle is?


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

my4goldens said:


> Went to the second web site, can somebody tell me what a sugar doodle is?


It is aparently a poodle bred with an "English Creme" Golden Retriever :doh:


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## 4thegolden (Jul 18, 2009)

Right, while I couldn't find the information on the website for KinshipCompanions, it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. They had some nice pedigree information and the OFA testing is listed there throughout it. I am sure asking them or further looking for the info on OFFA.org would find it. And only go from there if it truly doesnt exist. You are right they should have it on the site that would make sense... but it doesnt mean it doesnt exist just because you dont see it there ..... I see on the ThoseGoldens they have it listed, which does check out on the OFFA site.... all I am saying is, don't lable a website as bad without going through the effort of knowing for sure. It looks like both of these breeders go through a lot of effort. Maybe commend some breeders that do go through the effort too. I just hate to see people who put forth the effort only to get shot down by people who only took a few seconds glance.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

4thegolden said:


> I have checked out their website and see there are clearances being done, health guarantees,


And as for Those Goldens none of their dogs are listed in CERF database, but yet their website says they are all "Eye CERF- Normal-Pass" 

As for ThoseGoldens health guarantee this is what the contract states
"This puppy will be examined by a licensed veterinarian within 3 business days of receipt. A verified letter from the veterinarian 
is required if the puppy is returned due to illness (excluding parasites)-deemed present prior to removal from original 
premises. The seller assumes no responsibility (of said puppy after the puppy leaves the sellers premises) for medical 
expenses, disease, mortality, landlord disapproval, allergies, disagreement of the family, marital dispute, or any other 
reasons. Under no circumstances is the seller responsible for any veterinarian bills incurred with the puppy after time of sale. "

Niether of the breeders you speak of would be considered by any stretch of the term ever be considered "responsible" in my opinion and I would tell anyone thinking about getting a pup from there to go elsewhere.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

4thegolden said:


> Right, while I couldn't find the information on the website for KinshipCompanions, it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. They had some nice pedigree information and the OFA testing is listed there throughout it.


 
Again I do not see it on Kinship's site and you agree and disagree in the same post?


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

AmbikaGR said:


> It is aparently a poodle bred with an "English Creme" Golden Retriever :doh:


 
oh, my, what next.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

So they have nice websites. 
I cannot commend them for anything else that I see on the websites.
If a breeder is doing clearances, they will be in the databases. And any breeder who is doing the right thing will generally be proud to put that clearance information right on their websites.

Do you have a connection with either of those two?


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## 4thegolden (Jul 18, 2009)

For those goldens. 
"A copy of the vet 
slip will be supplied to Buyer. Reasonable precautions have been taken to prevent this puppy from acquiring hereditary 
defects of the hips, eyes and heart. However, due to unknown hereditary and environmental causes of such defects, no 
guarantee will be given against them. However, should said puppy be diagnosed by a board certified specialist as being 
affected by one of the above hereditary defects, and verified by another board certified licensed specialist upon the sellers 
discretion, the Sellers will at their discretion replace it with a puppy from another breeding within two years for hips and one 
year for all other genetic defects or reimburse the purchase price within 90 days of seller’s verification of condition. All this 
providing the above puppy, if kept by the buyer, is spayed or neutered to prevent inadvertent breeding of a golden with a 
known risk factor."

You left out a portion of the health guarantee contract...... Possibly the Eye Certifications have not been listed on the CERF yet? Copies of the CERF's prove that. 

As for KinshipCompanions. I see the OFA certifications in the pedigree, which can be checked out at OFFA.... I did not see the OFA certifications on the website for the specific dog and of course that info should be investigated or asked of the breeder to provide proof of. What I am saying is, it is wrong to place the label as saying it doesnt exist when you haven't fully investigated it. Should they have it on their site, yes. Does it mean it doesnt exist if not... no. Should this info be provided to any prospective or future customers, definitely.

Come on people. This is why searching for a good breeder is so difficult. There are so many cut throats out there it's terrible. Then there's people cutting people down who dont even know the facts. 

I thought this forum was going to be valuable. All I see are people coming up with their own misconceptions and passing their opinion off as truth. There's a lot of "I'm better because they don't show this or that" come on. If you have to cut down others to make yourself more valuable....there isn't value. 

wow this was a dissappointment.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

4thegolden said:


> I thought this forum was going to be valuable.


This forum is extremely valuable. One has to be willing and open to the experience of the reputable breeders here to realize this value.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

4thegolden said:


> For those goldens.
> "A copy of the vet
> slip will be supplied to Buyer. Reasonable precautions have been taken to prevent this puppy from acquiring hereditary
> defects of the hips, eyes and heart. However, due to unknown hereditary and environmental causes of such defects, no
> ...


You are correct I copied the wrong section. 



4thegolden said:


> As for KinshipCompanions. I see the OFA certifications in the pedigree, which can be checked out at OFFA.... I did not see the OFA certifications on the website for the specific dog and of course that info should be investigated or asked of the breeder to provide proof of. What I am saying is, it is wrong to place the label as saying it doesnt exist when you haven't fully investigated it. Should they have it on their site, yes. Does it mean it doesnt exist if not... no. Should this info be provided to any prospective or future customers, definitely.


All the OFA certifications you see are not for any of their dogs. Thet are all for dogs in the pedigree.
As for their dogs I did check all the dogs as listed on Kinship's website
One male had a Cardiac clearance on OFA 
One Female had a Hip Clearance on OFA
One female had Elbow, Cardiacon OFA and a two year old CERF (they are only good for one year)
So out of 5 Sires and 11 Dams none have all the clearances that can be verified.



4thegolden said:


> Come on people. This is why searching for a good breeder is so difficult. There are so many cut throats out there it's terrible. Then there's people cutting people down who dont even know the facts.
> 
> I thought this forum was going to be valuable. All I see are people coming up with their own misconceptions and passing their opinion off as truth. There's a lot of "I'm better because they don't show this or that" come on. If you have to cut down others to make yourself more valuable....there isn't value.
> 
> wow this was a dissappointment.


You are so correct that searching for a good breeder is very difficult. That is why I will comment on breeders I see listed here after looking at their websites. People cut their own throats in my opinion when they tell only partial truths and mislead the public. Whether it is intentional or not they are the ones out their putting up "nice websites" to attract potential buyers. And I will stand by "misconceptions" as truth. I do not see any way I make myself "valuable" but I do see the "value" in what I believe.

If you can not see and understand that then I too am experiencing "dissappointment."


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Aside from the fact that any clearances are not on their own dogs, but dogs in the pedigrees, I couldn't recommend them based on the pedigrees alone of most of their dogs, as well as the photos of them. Structurally speaking.


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## 4thegolden (Jul 18, 2009)

Thank you to the user who told me I cold trust Point of Gold. 
I do appreciate it. I couldnt respond due to the fact that I dont have enough posts.

I do submiss on the point of Kinship with the clearances. Locally they have a decent reputation around here so I guess I was assuming as well. 

But, I do not on the point of thosegoldens. I questioned their contract, yes I do know them, they will provide copies of the eye testings. They aren't listed on the CERF site because they were just recently sent in. They also have adjusted their contract to be more specific for their health guarantee and for the ill puppy portion of it too. The goldens they plan to breed are OFA'd and CERF'd. They provide copies of everything. 

So I appologize, there is value here, I have just run accross so many cut throats that I put up the defensive.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I cannot recommend anyone who intentionally breeds Doodles of any kind.


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## 4thegolden (Jul 18, 2009)

Thats a matter of opinion I guess. It doesn't bother me. Its the golden retrievers I am interested in anyways.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

4thegolden said:


> Thats a matter of opinion I guess. It doesn't bother me. Its the golden retrievers I am interested in anyways.


To the vast majority of responsible purebred breeders, not just Golden Retriever Breeders, someone who intentionally breeds "Designer" dogs, mixed breeds, it is a HUGE problem.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> To the vast majority of responsible purebred breeders, not just Golden Retriever Breeders, someone who intentionally breeds "Designer" dogs, mixed breeds, it is a HUGE problem.


Yeah, well, as long as they are cute, it's just mean of repsonsible breeders to have a problem with them...:doh:


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

sugar doodles are priced at $1800 for either a male or a female, that is just insane


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> So they have nice websites.
> 
> Do you have a connection with either of those two?


I think that this newbie is directly affilliated with "Those Goldens", based on the e-mail address that comes up when you download their vcard.

I hope that they are able to learn something from you (Pointgold) and Ambika!


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## rradovitch (Mar 15, 2008)

I feel sorry for you asking this question. I will admit that I didn't read through all the responses but you will surely get quite a few "know it all" responses. Very touchy subject. Do a search and see what you come up with. Yes they are both golden retrievers and yes they have minor differences. Just be sure the breeder has clearances for several generations and get the dog you like the most.


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## khoch4 (Apr 15, 2009)

Trying to forget something called a "sugar doodle" refers to a dog. How humiliating.

Anyway, a website I have found helpful in regards to the English type goldens is www.englishgoldens.net - they also have a breeder list there that I think is a very good starting point. I apologize if this has already been mentioned, I made it through most, but not all of the posts.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

khoch4 said:


> Trying to forget something called a "sugar doodle" refers to a dog. How humiliating.
> 
> Anyway, a website I have found helpful in regards to the English type goldens is www.englishgoldens.net - they also have a breeder list there that I think is a very good starting point. I apologize if this has already been mentioned, I made it through most, but not all of the posts.


 
:doh: ""Sugar Doodle" indeed. And I am impressed that in their contract, Those Goldens indicate that the AKC will be recognizing them. Uh huh. Just like they have Cockapoos... 
Maybe the cockapoo breeders should jump on the "Doodle" bandwagon, nix the "poo" (negative conotations re: dog waste) and change the name to Cockadoodles - think of the marketing opportunities -"Cockadoodle DO!"


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

Wow! I just spent a half hour reading through this thread. I learned so much! Thank you to all who have put so much time into explaining a great many things related to goldens! (Esp. Pointgold and Ambika) I am a member of our local breed club, and I know that none of the breeders (about 17 in the area) would ever consider breeding "doodles". Breeders that truly care for the golden retriever breed are committed to improving the breed and preserving what is special and unique about it. I too would flee from a breeder who bred golden doodles. It drives me crazy to see how much money people are willing to part with for a mixed breed dog! I have no issues at all with mixed breed dogs--but I would much prefer to visit the humane society and adopt one there. I would never consider a puppy whose parents did not have multi generational health clearances. While there are never any guarantees to health, these are as close as you can come. My breeder provided a five year health guarantee (many health issues do not show up until 3 years old or more) with her puppies and insists that if at any time in the puppy's life it must be given up, it must be returned to her. It is worth the time and effort to research breeders and find the best one you can before you visit the puppies (they have you when you go through the door!!) Often you must wait and be screened by the breeder. Good breeders do not sell to just anyone. 
Good luck with your search, Americangolden!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

The original post was in September of '08, and I'm quite sure americangolden has since gotten a puppy. The thread was revived on Saturday by a person apparently affiliated with Those Goldens. I wish that if a breeder is going to come here to discuss/defend their breeding practices, that they would be honest about who they are - pretending to be a satisfied customer, etc, doesn't do much for their credibility.


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## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

americangolden said:


> I just want a real golden golden if that makes any sence haha. I never knew this would be so much work just trying to find a reputable breeder.


But soooooo worth the work!


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## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

4thegolden said:


> ThoseGoldens are good breeders and so are the Kinshipgoldens too. Just because things arent on the websites it does mean they don't exist. Before judging- people should do some investigation and not jump onto some forum to ask others who aren't truly familiar. Shame on those who discriminate against the breeders who they dont even know. As for doodles and running away from a breeder who makes those. If you arent looking to buy a doodle then dont worry about it. Health clearances and guarantees are great too.... but so are breeders who also CARE about the puppies and provide EXTRA TLC in addition to that.... which these two breeders do! Shame shame shame!


Sorry, but I must jump on this one! It's obvious that you haven't been around the forum long because if you had been, you wouldn't be posting this!!!! Advise is what this thread was started for & advice was given by some of the best "golden" people in the world! 

The mother is (1) year old - obviously they bred her during her first heat and before she was physically mature. Not the best for the bitch, I'd say! 

As has been previously stated, clearances do not guarantee that you won't have health problems with your puppy, they just reduce that risk. So, if you're up for the risk buy a puppy from where ever you want, from whatever breeding is available and love him/her to death! 

Me, I'll stick to a reputable breeder who does ALL the clearances on her goldens after age 2 and before they're considered for breeding!


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

[The original post was in September of '08, and I'm quite sure americangolden has since gotten a puppy.]

Whoops! Read everything but the dates! Still an interesting thread.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

4thegolden said:


> But, I do not on the point of thosegoldens. I questioned their contract, yes I do know them, they will provide copies of the eye testings. They aren't listed on the CERF site because they were just recently sent in. They also have adjusted their contract to be more specific for their health guarantee and for the ill puppy portion of it too. The goldens they plan to breed are OFA'd and CERF'd. They provide copies of everything.
> 
> So I appologize, there is value here, I have just run accross so many cut throats that I put up the defensive.


And this where this forum is of great value in my opinion. Here you are in the beginning blasting those that question what some breeders put on their websites. And then after listening to reason and facts posted here you relook at the situation and realize it is the love and concern for the breed we have that motivates us and truly nothing more. So I am glad youo were able to talk to Thosegoldens and they have agreed to change some of their ways. Now if you could only convince then of their error in breeding Doodles. 
I am sure by now I, Pointgold and others here have you talking to yourself.

Takecare!


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## 4thegolden (Jul 18, 2009)

I am publicly posting my appologys here, because I wanted to make corrections about information that was not correct on here that I came across. I thought I could go on here because I saw things being said that were not true about thosegoldens. I didn't think it was fair, so I thought I could make a difference. I am 14 1/2. I have a strong desire to do right by my parents because I know they try very hard, and they do things with all of there heart and for the right reasons. you don't know how hard they try and I am frusterated at times because I do know. But then people on here were thinking I was them. So I showed this to them. They were going to sign on and appolagize for my behavior but we decided I should.... I got myself into this. And this is not how they do their business. I have to learn there will always be people who will judge, people who will criticize, people who won't believe you or will say something but what matters is that you do things right. I also understand things are always a matter of opinion and everyone has the right to their own opinion. 
It was wrong of me to come on here and put up a argument or try to argue with you. I can't make everyone think the way I want them to and everone should have their opinion. Even if it is not mine. I see there are plenty of people who don't respect my opinion and I know how that feels, so I should not commit the same acts to them. 
Even though I don't like the way some of you treat otherpeople- my parents told me there is probably good information on here and that I need to look at some of the other threads. 
I do appologize for my behavior and I should not have gotten involved in a argument that was not for me to agrue.


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## 4thegolden (Jul 18, 2009)

I also appolagize for saying there are cut throats. I did not mean to offend anyone or to appear disrespectful if I have.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

You are very mature for a 14 1/2 yr old to apologize and it is important that you stick up for your parents. While some people may state their opinions strongly, know that it is done because we all love goldens and want the best for anyone looking for a dog. And that breeders will do the best for the breed according to the Golden Retriever Club of America standards.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

4thegolden let's start over.

*Welcome to the GRF!* :wavey:


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## Brenda1738 (Mar 25, 2018)

Sorry for reviving an old thread, but just wanted to say this was very informative as I am trying to learn as much I can about Goldens and their colors. I visited Europe and fell in love with some of the very light almost white goldens and their broad heads and am looking for one now but don't know where to start looking for one from a good breeder.


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

Brenda1738 said:


> Sorry for reviving an old thread, but just wanted to say this was very informative as I am trying to learn as much I can about Goldens and their colors. I visited Europe and fell in love with some of the very light almost white goldens and their broad heads and am looking for one now but don't know where to start looking for one from a good breeder.


I don't know where you live, but this is a good place to start. You will still want to check that each breeder obtains appropriate clearances. I got my dog from a breeder on this list. 

English Goldens in North America - Breeders.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Brenda1738 said:


> Sorry for reviving an old thread, but just wanted to say this was very informative as I am trying to learn as much I can about Goldens and their colors. I visited Europe and fell in love with some of the very light almost white goldens and their broad heads and am looking for one now but don't know where to start looking for one from a good breeder.


Well, I’d say good luck. There are not many responsible breeders in the Us in this style and certainly less when they breed for color. 

I would ask, though if you have actually seen show Goldens in the US. Many people don’t realize how much different a dog bred for the show ring is from the generic idea of Goldens from random breeders. Below is a picture of my American show girl and my European import show girl. Though the head styles do differ slightly, my American has a bigger head for sure. 

If color really is an issue for you, look to Canada or import from Europe. There is a very small number of breeders in the US I would even consider and those don’t breed for color. Then again, in England you find the full range of color as well. Though the greeder breeders in the US would have you believe that the UK is populated with only pale dogs. As you can see from this footage of Crufts while the ring does skew lighter than in the US there is a full range of gold because they are breeding good dogs, not a color. https://www.facebook.com/ableduchess/videos/10156256117246882/


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