# Puppy registration question



## MTgoldens (Aug 29, 2016)

Hi! I am posting this here as I know many of you breed your dogs. My dog had a litter of puppies with a friend of friends dog. They are both papered, have all their health clearences, and as far as the dogs and puppies go everything has been going wonderfully. I met the owner of the stud prior to breeding. He seemed like a nice guy, and great dog owner. His male has an excellent pedigree, and all of his clearences were in check. He and I discussed the stud fee, and he said he wanted pick of the litter should everything work out okay, and that while I would be selling the puppies with limited registration his would have full registration. I agreed as I trusted he would be a great owner after also talking with his vet, and was sure he would complete all of the nescarry health checks prior to breeding, and would not breed a dog that did not meet breed standards or had a poor temperament. Fast forward to today. The puppies are now two weeks old, and he told me today that he is "transferring" his pick of the litter to his friend from out of town who will be by to pick the puppy up when it is only 7 weeks old (I am planning on keeping the puppies until 9 weeks, and then sending them to their new homes). We went back and forth, and finally I called my vet, and only after my vet said that he felt it was okay did I conceed against my better judgement to agree to the puppy going home at 7 weeks. However I really do not feel comftorable giving this "friend" who I have never met personally a puppy with full registration. Am I within my rights to give him limited registration for the puppy? I feel like by "transfering" his pick the stud's owner has already violated the nature of our agreement therefore it no longer stands, but I would love other peoples opinions!


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Do you have any of this agreement in writing? Even email? Do not let the stud dog owner bully you into changing the agreement. You never agreed to give full registration to a third party in the original plan. I don't know if either of you would be willing to go to court over this disagreement, but you must do what is best for the puppy.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

The question becomes what did the contract say. If you have done this verbally it gets very messy. Depending on the verbal agreement wording the answer is likely yes, you own him the puppy. You took services in the form of stud service. If the compensation was a full registration puppy, then I think you have your answer. When in doubt, consult a lawyer. 

My thoughts run to just as he has no say in what you would do with a full registration puppy you keep. You would have no say in his. You are not infact selling him a puppy at all. It is the payment to which you agreed. 

Good luck.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

No matter what you say to him, once he has that puppy, he can do whatever he wants with it, including selling it to his friend or whoever he wishes. You can offer him a stud fee instead, but he may be able to flip the puppy for more than the stud fee.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Seeing experienced breeders responses, it doesn't look good. I guess the moral of the story is never promise a puppy back for stud fee :no:


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

Do you have a written stud service contract that you both signed? Or was this just a verbal agreement? If it is a written contract specifying that he gets a puppy with full registration you should abide by that. If it's a verbal agreement or if the contract does not specifically spell this situation out I personally would not give a full registration. You could at least give that a try and see what he comes back with.
Adding: contracts and legal stuff...so much fun :-/


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

ArchersMom said:


> Seeing experienced breeders responses, it doesn't look good. I guess the moral of the story is never promise a puppy back for stud fee :no:


Not unless you trust that person 110%. The stud fee puppy goes with no strings, just like the ones you keep have no strings. 

There are only a few stud dog owners I would do this for and I know them all personally. Never a stranger I don't know.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

fourlakes said:


> Adding: contracts and legal stuff...so much fun :-/


To true! :|

Though I am not a lawyer, I just don't see anyway a judge lets you change the agreement. He said compensation for breeding was a full registration puppy. You agreed and did the breeding. He owns one of the puppies. 

You certainly can try to offer a stud fee but if he already told his friend he is getting a puppy that is very unlikely to fly.


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## MTgoldens (Aug 29, 2016)

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses! The contract was made verbally. I suppose I will speak with the stud's owner, and his friend, and see if maybe he would accept a written contract saying that I will switch it to full registration pending hip, elbow, heart, and eye certifications. If he is good breeder he would have done them all anyway, so it wouldnt really matter. But I think you guys are right I may just have to let him have the puppy. Lesson well learned, and I certainly will never agree to give a puppy as a stud fee in the future!


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

If it was a verbal agreement and you have not signed a written agreement I think you have room for negotiation. I would stand your ground and do what you think is right, not just go along with what the stud owner wants in this situation. Your offer of a limited registration that you would lift if all clearances are done sounds very reasonable. I think you should also feel comfortable with the puppy owner, think they are responsible and will do the right thing re breeding the dog before granting a full registration.


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## Max209 (Mar 25, 2016)

Have you spoken to the stud dog owner's friend to see what his intentions are and to see what background and experience he has with raising and or breeding Goldens ? Certainly disturbing when the stud dog owner changes things that you thought were agreed upon, but there are several scenarios that easily come to mind, but best to first just interview the friend to see if he'll be a responsible owner. Is he getting a male or female puppy ? Is he interested in breeding the dog he gets ? Is he willing to wait until an appropriate age and do all the health clearances and agree in writing as to what those clearances must be for breeding ? Maybe the friend just wants a pet. Maybe the friend is essentially a co-owner with the stud dog's father. Lots of possibilities.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

This is why I dislike stud fee puppies. I am sorry you're going through the worry... of course I suppose it's better that you know on the front end rather than him picking up pup and then 'transferring' puppy.... 
A puppy costs more than a stud fee. And the only reason to do that sort of payment would be if the stud owner would DO something with the puppy. If its going off to live with a friend who isn't going to do anything(and I have no idea what the pedigree of your dog is or the stud dog) then the pedigree is probably going to get used in a way you would not agree to. I'd probably tell stud dog owner I wasn't comfy with the plan and that I'd rather pay a fee. If he insisted and I felt I had to, I would probably make him sign something to the effect that the pup would be on limited until clearances were done.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I wouldn't let pup go without a written contract in any case.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

fourlakes said:


> If it was a verbal agreement and you have not signed a written agreement I think you have room for negotiation. I would stand your ground and do what you think is right, not just go along with what the stud owner wants in this situation. Your offer of a limited registration that you would lift if all clearances are done sounds very reasonable. I think you should also feel comfortable with the puppy owner, think they are responsible and will do the right thing re breeding the dog before granting a full registration.


This makes sense to me. From your description it sounded like your original agreement to give full registration was very much based on the personal qualifications of the stud owner and he has chosen to make a change in the original agreement thus opening the door for further changes in the agreement.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

LJack said:


> The question becomes what did the contract say. If you have done this verbally it gets very messy. Depending on the verbal agreement wording the answer is likely yes, you own him the puppy. You took services in the form of stud service. If the compensation was a full registration puppy, then I think you have your answer. When in doubt, consult a lawyer.
> 
> My thoughts run to just as he has no say in what you would do with a full registration puppy you keep. You would have no say in his. You are not infact selling him a puppy at all. It is the payment to which you agreed.
> 
> Good luck.


I agree with this. SO much in breeding has some live and learn- and it is frustrating and even saddening at times. I think you owe him the pup, and it is his to do as he wishes. On the other hand, I would never do this to a bitch owner. The vast majority of the time I do not want a puppy back from a litter sired by my dog, especially as giving a puppy back (while it can sometimes be an honor in some situations), is expensive for the bitch owner as the pups are sold for more than the stud fee by a good margin. I have an ironclad dog number limit of 6 for myself, so I cant really do it anyway unless it was with the idea of placing the pup with a friend or co owning. I wouldn't feel comfortable taking for a puppy back with the foreknowledge I would place her/him, and of for some reason I wanted to do that I would be 100 percent upfront with the bitch owner and discuss well before the breeding ever happened. So sorry you have to struggle with this, but I think you have to let the pup go and then from now have it written in your contract what you need to feel comfortable.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

One thing to mention is no matter what, tread lightly. Aside from the possibility of ending up in court, you could find yourself with puppies you can not register.

I honestly don't know you and I don't know him. All I can see is the information you are sharing. I keep thinking if this goes to court the dog is property. Switch dog to car and this is what you get... 

Someone offered to do a service for me and in exchange I would give them my car and I agreed. They did the service from which I benefited however, when it came time to pick up the car I found out he was giving it to a friend. At that point I decided I was not comfortable with our agreement and decided to change it by offering cash compensation (probably for less than the car is worth) or I decided to remove an essential piece of the vehicle like the exhaust system. 

Yes, it is stark and harsh. No, I am not comfortable with that either. In your situation I would not be happy either. But, though I am not a lawyer, from an exchange of goods for services stand point I think a judge would see you as the one breaking the agreement not him. Especially after he has honored his end of the deal and you have the puppies. I could be wrong so if you are prepared to fight consult a lawyer. 

Either way good luck, it is a tough spot.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I think I would explain to him that you want to talk to the third party "new" owner because you are uncomfortable giving the puppy to a stranger. Maybe the third party person will be just fine.
I own stud dogs, and my parents and other non-dog-savvy people think it's crazy that I don't keep a puppy from every litter they produce, in lieu of a stud fee, and sell it since the stud fee is typically less than what a puppy would cost. To them it makes perfect sense. I have friends (non dog show people) who want puppies from my dog(s) and have suggested this very practice, so they don't have to go through the breeder. I'm like -- NO WAY that is a GREAT way to tick off a breeder who was kind enough to use my dog, and earn yourself a shifty reputation! It's just not done, as a way for the stud dog to make a buck on a puppy. Now, I'm sure many stud dog owners want a puppy back and place it on co-ownership with a third party that agrees to show it, and I think that could be a nice arrangement all around, but something that has to be discussed and agreed upon with the breeder too.
Best of luck.


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## MTgoldens (Aug 29, 2016)

Hi! I am here with an update. I took your advice, and I spoke with the stud dog owner, and was very frank and upfront about my concerns about giving the puppy to his friend who I did not personally know. I explained to him the screening process I had done with the other buyers, and showed him the contract I was having the other buyers sign (basic contract with a health guarentee for the puppies, and that they will make sure the puppy recieves vetrinary care, training, and if they end up in a position where they need to give up the dog that instead of a shelter it is returned to me). I asked him if he felt his friend met these rquiremnts, and if he decided to breed the puppy later on would he do all the nescarry health checks. Well the stud owner proved to be just of good of an owner as I thought he was, and admitted he did not know, and allowed me to give him money in place of a puppy!!! I found a wonderful owner for him, and he is going to come pick him up in a few weeks when the puppy 8.5 weeks old. Thank you guys SO much for the advice. This gas been such a learning experience, and I feel so blessed (and lucky) that this ended so well! Also I tried to include some puppy pics, so hopefully they came through!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Wonderful! All good, then, and your stud dog owner panned out as a good guy. I'm so glad for you and for puppy.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

How great to get the update and story's happy ending.


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