# Should I go with English Creme-or standard



## Ljilly28

If you've looked through the forum, you've probably seen that "English Creme" sometimes means BEWARE marketing ploy. If your heart's desire is an English style golden, I would send a message to Doolin for advice and then follow it so that you get a lovely healthy dog from a breeder with integrity.


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## mylissyk

You certainly can choose your preference on coat color, but if you run across a breeder who is advertising "Rare English Creme", RUN. 

A Golden Retriever is a Golden Retriever and should meet the breed standard. The only impact coat color should have on that is to be sure the color is not outside of breed standard either. If someone is trying to charge higher prices or call them rare they are only motivated by money.

Any quality breeder should have all the appropriate clearances done on their dogs, hips, eyes, heart, at the minimum, should be screened and evaluated by vets certified to conduct those tests, not just a local vet. And you should ask for and receive copies of those tests results from the breeder.

You can find reputable breeders who are breeding light color coated Goldens. I don't personally know of any but I know there are folks on the board who can recommend some.

Good luck in your search!


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## Tahnee GR

The individual dogs will vary widely-the very pale Goldens are still Goldens. The term English Creme is more a marketing gimmick than anything. I find that many using the term British White or English Creme are less than what I would consider reputable.

You want to find a breeder you can trust, and whose dogs you are drawn too, both in terms of temperment and looks.

This is an excellent website to start with, if you are drawn to the English/European look:

http://www.starcrowned.com/egnatest/

A board member and breeder, Rob from Conqueror Goldens in Canada, has English pedigrees and hopefully he will chime in.

I am not sure what a well bred puppy would cost in Arizona, but here in Wisconsin you could expect to pay $1000-$1200 easily.


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## Tahnee GR

And as mentioned above, any breeder should be able to show you OFA ratings on hips and elbows, heart certifications from a cardiologist and an annual eye clearance from a veterinary opthamologist, starting at around 12 months of age.


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## Shalva

I have English Pedigrees and a litter currently on the ground. I have to say I don't breed for color. Now are my dogs lighter in color than most American Pedigrees, yes they are.... are we likely to have some creams in this litter... yeah probably. I personally breed for temperament, health, structure, working ability and if they are lighter in color great, if they are darker in color great. 

When looking at English/European pedigrees you want to look for exactly the same things as you would in a breeder of American type dogs... but like the others have said I would stay clear of anyone who advertises for Rare British Creams, or Rare Whites or whatever. Color should be the last thing on the breeders mind when they are putting two dogs together. 

Someone above mentioned that a golden is a a golden is a golden, but there are some differences in dogs bred to the UK breed standard vs. the AKC breed standard, it is not simply about color... and there are pros and cons to both American type dogs and what one might call an English type dog. It really is about preference.... and what we do know is that the AKC penalizes dogs that are very light in color in the breed ring. It is very difficult to show a very light English type dog in the U.S. 

Size wise they vary in the same way that American type dogs do, some will be larger and some smaller, as a rule we see bigger blockier heads and a bit more substance but that is not true for all and as with anything there is variation in all. As for temperament, I don't see any difference in temperament but that for me is about breeding, go and get a well bred American dog and you should get a great temperament and that is no difference than for the English dogs. A well bred golden should have that great golden retriever temperament regardless of where the pedigree origins are. 

Now that is not to say that we all don't have our preferences. I have a dog from American lines and I adore him, Do I generally prefer my english/european pedigrees, yeah, I do... for an assortment of reasons and there are many reputable breeders of English type dogs, I would like to think I am one of them. Conqueror as someone mentioned is also a member on this forum and he may know of other breeders. I am not to familiar with people out west.... as I am in northern new england. 

I guess in the end what I am saying is that everyone has a right to their preferences, if you are smitten with the lighter colored cream dogs then that is your preference.... and there is nothing wrong with that, just be careful of your breeders. Some mentioned the Starquest site and that is as good a place as any to start. It will help you to understand what to look for in a breeder and how to read UK hip clearances... et al..... 

I know that Conqueror is listed on that site as am I and a few others I know. 

I think a reasonable price for a golden puppy from a reputable breeder would be about 1200, look for all their clearances but be aware that most UK breeders (where these lines originate from) don't do heart clearances so you should absolutely get heart clearances on the dogs that are in teh states but if you are researching back, once you get to those dogs that are still residing in the UK there is a high likelihood that there will not be heart clearances on those dogs. 

S


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## iflyems

Thanks for the replies. I'm very leery of a lot of "backyard breeders".
Sam, my former Golden, was purchased from such a breeder. He never developed any hip or eye problems, but developed a fatal kidney problem at only 9 years of age.
He was very health one day, and deathly ill the next, and died 3 days later.

I'm trying to avoid a similar fate. In my opinion, there dogs appear to be "cookie cutter" dogs, or clones. They all look the same, and mostly act the same. I'm extremely drawn to the breed though, as I never met a friendlier, more outgoing dog than my Sam.

I've done a lot of research online, and am familiar with all the test, etc. AKC has a very thorough website/guide.

I have found a couple "light coat" goldens in the Phoenix area. Both are being "marketed" as "rare", etc.

I've also seen that "english" goldens tend to be smaller, and blockier than there "american" cousins.

I may lean towards a light coated American Golden, as I like the size. I'm also under the impression that the color on the tips of the ears, is generally the coat color the dog will achieve as it gets older.

But, color isn't necessarily a dominate factor in my buying decision. Health and temperment would be number one on the list.

Besides, everyone knows how dirty a Golden can get when you take them to the lake. Can you imagine how dirty a white on would get??


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## Tahnee GR

Two good places to start, other than the Starquest site, are

www.grca.org Check out their puppy referral page and the information on buying a Golden

www.breedersresource.org Lots of good breeders listed there but also some not so good. Check the breeder out carefully.


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## Shalva

iflyems said:


> Besides, everyone knows how dirty a Golden can get when you take them to the lake. Can you imagine how dirty a white on would get??


No dirtier than any other golden and a dog with a correct coat wll be easy to keep clean. 

My lighter dogs are no more difficult to keep clean than my American dog. I also wouldn't say that English dogs are smaller than the American dogs.... 

It seems like you need to spread your search area a bit wider.... 

s


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## Sharkle13

Mine is an english golden and yes she attracts dirt like a magnet. Where I live light golens are more common and along with light labradors they all have this unique ability to get dirty when you thought there wasn't any. We have a reasonable amount of rain here and there are certain months when the hose just doesn't get put away, but I must also say they are very good at cleaning themselves too, so a quick wash down with the hose and rub dry with a towel and they will do the rest.


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## Jo Ellen

Sounds like you've done a lot of good homework on how to choose a golden retriever.

Even if your pick is a lighter color, remember they probably clean up just as easily as the darker colored ones. I love that about goldens ... a good brushing after completely dry and they're like brand new again 

Good luck and welcome to our forum! I'm sorry you lost your Sam at a young age. It's not altogether uncommon, but still 9 years is nowhere near long enough.


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## iflyems

I never had a problem keeping Sam clean either. He loved the hose, and the sprinklers.
I was joking about the white ones being more difficult to keep clean.


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## Pointgold

Go with a _Golden Retriever_. 
Color should not be the primary consideration, health and temperament should. A Golden Retriever is just that -a Golden Retriever. There is no "British Creme" or "White Golden Retriever", etc etc. 
You may find breeders with English dogs in their pedigree, and they may be a lighter color. If that breeder has integrity, is responsible and reputable, they will not be marketing their dogs as anything other than Golden Retrievers, and more importantly, will only be breeding dogs with a solid history of health clearances (at LEAST three generations of cleared hips, elbows, hearts and eyes) and will have dogs that meet the standard as regards size, structure, and movement, and above all, will only be breeding dogs with exemplary temperaments.


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## AmbikaGR

Welcome to the forum!!
Well iflewems it appears that many here have addressed your questions quite well. I will just stress the main points as I see them
1- A Golden is a Golden and they all need the same clearances
2- Be very wary of any who advertise with the terminology "rare", "white", "cream/creme", "miniature", "comfort". 
3- RUN don't walk from any breeder who tells you their dogs are free of the hip, heart, eye and cancer problems found in American lines.
4- RUN again from any breeder who advertises different price ranges for American, American/British, and British breedings (unless they can justify it due to some unusal circumstances)
5- It is perfectly normal to have preferences, we all do.
6- Most important don't rush into a decision and never lrt any breeder pressure you into one. 

On another subject and I am sorry if I sound crass but I strongly suggest you not tell any breeder that your previous Golden was "135 lbs and not overweight". You may not have thought he was but unless he was about 32 inches tall that honestly is not possible. If someone was to tell me this I don't think I could sell them one of my babies. Understand I am not trying to be critical just trying to educate. 

Good luck in your search and plase feel comfortable to ask any questions you may have.


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## iflyems

Thanks. Sam was unusual to say the least. I'm six foot tall, and he could stand on his hind legs, put his front paws over my shoulders, and look me square in the eye.

He may not have been 100% genuine Golden Retriever. My brother bought him from a "backyard breeder" as a family pet years ago.

Needless to say, he was a very large dog, and not really representative of the norm for the breed.

I am looking for something quite a bit smaller.....LOL

I want a normal golden, with good temperment, and of course all the health stuff done. I've already contacted a few organizations for references on breeders. I also plan, once I chosen the breeder, to contact former clients to see how there dogs are doing, and how satisfied they are with there dog.

I'm not quite 50 yet, but, I think this will probably be the last dog I get. So I'm taking quite a bit of time looking, and asking questions, before I meet any dog. I refuse to do this on any emotional level whatsoever. So I'm taking it purely as a business decision first.


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## AmbikaGR

iflyems said:


> So I'm taking quite a bit of time looking, and asking questions, before I meet any dog. I refuse to do this on any emotional level whatsoever. So I'm taking it purely as a business decision first.


And it is obvious that if you were not doing the first part the second half would not be possible. We all know how hard it is to walk away from any Golden pup without saying yes! GOOD FOR YOU!!!


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## Pudden

iflyems said:


> Thanks. Sam was unusual to say the least. I'm six foot tall, and he could stand on his hind legs, put his front paws over my shoulders, and look me square in the eye.
> 
> He may not have been 100% genuine Golden Retriever. My brother bought him from a "backyard breeder" as a family pet years ago.
> 
> Needless to say, he was a very large dog, and not really representative of the norm for the breed.
> 
> .


I was concerned about the weight thing, too. There's no golden-sizd dog that can weigh 135 lbs and not be overweight; however, if maybe Sam had some giant-breed (Pyrenees, maybe? Neufie?) mixed in, that would be a different thing.

It might also explain his shorter life span, as giants don't live as long :no: as smaller breeds.

On a different note, have you considered a rescue?


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## Kzwicker

I am a little confused with the whole "English" vs. "American" goldens. For instance, Tilly looks much different than Murphy. Is there such thing as an English Golden and American Golden? I know the term "English Cream" is not right, but I cant help but notice that the Goldens in the UK look different than the Goldens here. (Both are very beautiful by the way)


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## MillysMom

Good luck selecting a breeder. If you do chose to go with the European type there are a few posters on this forum that breed and/or show them. One that comes to mind is Halia Goldens--she seems to really strive for the total package, not just color. She has beautiful dogs, and really cares about them.

Good luck in your search.


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## mdoats

I created a post a while back with links to lots of other threads on this subject. If you want to go back and read past discussions, some of them were very informative. Here's the link:

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=42388&highlight=english

ETA: Hmm... just went back and looked at that post. Unfortunately something happened to all the links.


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## Shalva

Kzwicker said:


> I am a little confused with the whole "English" vs. "American" goldens. For instance, Tilly looks much different than Murphy. Is there such thing as an English Golden and American Golden? I know the term "English Cream" is not right, but I cant help but notice that the Goldens in the UK look different than the Goldens here. (Both are very beautiful by the way)



There are differences in overall type. There is only one breed and that is golden retriever, but in the same way as field dogs tend to look different than show dogs, English type goldens look different than American Goldens and it is more than just an English tendency toward a lighter color. We see differences in head shape and eye set, angulation both front and rear, substance, coat texture amongst others. Part of this is simply because of how the breed standards are written in each country and simply style of dog that is bred and shown in each country. I think the most obvious thing that most people would notice is a difference in head shape and eye set. The other stuff would require a more trained eye.

These are "type" differences.... type being what makes a golden look like a golden and a lab look like a lab and a husky look like a husky. In this case what we have is one breed that has several differences in type. They all look like goldens so you could pick them out as goldens but they are slightly different. Not enough different to call them different breeds, but enough to be able to classify the "type" or style of the dog.


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## tippykayak

Kzwicker said:


> I am a little confused with the whole "English" vs. "American" goldens. For instance, Tilly looks much different than Murphy. Is there such thing as an English Golden and American Golden? I know the term "English Cream" is not right, but I cant help but notice that the Goldens in the UK look different than the Goldens here. (Both are very beautiful by the way)


The most basic difference is that the lightest color (the real "cream" or "white") is allowed in the British show ring but not in the American. Hence, people who want to show in America wouldn't breed the lightest color, and American dogs tend to be slightly darker. The breed standard differs in other minor ways, so Goldens bred to show in England and mainland Europe develop a slightly different look.

The differences aren't substantive, and the core qualities of the breed are the same. That's why so many of the serious breeders and enthusiasts here on the board are so leery of somebody breeding so aggressively for a single coat color, rather than for health, athleticism, intelligence, and temperament, all qualities that are vastly more important. If you just wanted a big white dog, you could buy a Kuvasz. You'd just have to accept the fact that it would maul the neighbor's kid if he beat up on your kid.


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## gold4me

Hi iflyems. I don't have any info to add except my husband and I had a house in Lake Havasu for 12 years. We just sold it and are now in Prescott. I know the most PERFECT pet sitter in Havasu if you ever need one. I also know what goldens looks like after being in the river. ha ha ha


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## beargroomer

If you're looking for an "English type," you might want to contact Joanne Cava of Tanglewood Goldens for a recommendation of a good breeder near you. 

My puppy Gibson has Canadian and European (English, Swedish) lines and is very light in color. But I didn't get him just because of the color. (I'm being completely honest when I say my favorite is actually the darker red Goldens. Someday, when I'm ready for a more driven field dog... ) I met someone with a really lovely dog last Spring and that conversation somehow led me to Joanne Cava. I ended up getting my puppy from a breeder Joanne recommended. The puppy wasn't any more expensive than a well bred American Golden here in CA., the breeder was awesome (she did a wonderful job raising the pups, and of course does all clearances and researches the lines) and the timing was right, so I ended up with my cream boy. I also wanted a dog that was different looking than my other Golden, so it worked out well for us. 

So yeah, there are reputable breeders that breed light Goldens. But that said, I think you'll have a much larger selection of good breeders if you were going for a more medium colored Golden. 
Really, be careful! There are a lot of bad, bad, bad people that are practically puppy mills that sell "British creme" dogs for insane amounts of money and they definitely DON'T research the lines nor do health clearances. They only look for the whitest dogs to breed. There is a "white" retriever in our neighborhood who came from one of those bad puppy mills. He is MUCH lighter in color than Gibson (who has a lot of gold/tan/champagne color adult coat coming in which I'm really excited about). But the difference in temperament between my puppy and that poorly bred "white" retriever is huge. 
Good luck in your search for the perfect puppy! And welcome to the forum!


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## ems

Hello. Please look for a dog with all the health checks, dont judge a book by its cover! Our beautiful breed needs to be bred for temperament, health and then last beauty. Im told that the cream gene is dominent over the gold so here in the UK we need to ensure that some of our lines remain gold. I know of a breeder that wont look at cream dog for this very reason.


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## iflyems

gold4me said:


> Hi iflyems. I don't have any info to add except my husband and I had a house in Lake Havasu for 12 years. We just sold it and are now in Prescott. I know the most PERFECT pet sitter in Havasu if you ever need one. I also know what goldens looks like after being in the river. ha ha ha


I can't send PM's yet. Can you PM me the contact info on your friend in Havasu that can puppy sit??


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## MaggieCarlyCooper

My son and wife have put down a deposit on an English golden--fully papered and cleared--for $1,500--bred in Missouri. Too much? We're told they tend to be healthier and have a calmer temperment. Anyone thoughts?


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## Lucky's mom

MaggieCarlyCooper said:


> My son and wife have put down a deposit on an English golden--fully papered and cleared--for $1,500--bred in Missouri. Too much? We're told they tend to be healthier and have a calmer temperment. Anyone thoughts?


If you want an English Golden this is fine, however $1500 is a chunk of money (For Missouri anyway), so my suggestion would be to really check this breeder out. I think with "English" golden buyers, you have to be extra careful because a lot of that price is based on color not a breeder's reputation. 

Don't assume the clearances are done. Research them. I just want you to be careful.

Personally, if I was going to spend that amount of money, I would go for an American-style high-end breeder, who invests the time and money into shows or other competition. I think breeders in the "show ring" are very careful to behave in an ethical manner as reputation is everything in that culture. YOu wont find the same type of "fly by night" that you get from the "white/light/english...whatever breeders.


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## iflyems

MaggieCarlyCooper said:


> My son and wife have put down a deposit on an English golden--fully papered and cleared--for $1,500--bred in Missouri. Too much? We're told they tend to be healthier and have a calmer temperment. Anyone thoughts?


I seriously doubt that there temperment will be any different than an American Golden. Have you ever seen a bad tempered, or mean Golden?? I never have.

The English will tend to be smaller in size. But, and this is a big but, don't buy strictly because he/she is white. Buy for health and temperment.

Ask the breeder lots of questions, like; How long have they been breeding, and how many litters have they produced. This next one is a test; Why do they breed? They should answer that they are trying to improve the breed in some way, and be able to articulate how.

Price should not be a factor. In my searches, I've seen English Creme's go for $1000. Remember, everything is negotiable.

Also, did the breeder ask you to fill out a questionaire, or ask you lots of questions to make sure your suitable for there puppy?? If not, run away!!!! A good breeder will screen you to make certain that there puppy is going to a good home.

I used to live in Missouri. Where exactly is the breeder located?? Have you seen pictures of there "faucility"??

I really hate to say this, but, its' a buyers' market out there. Many are losing there homes to foreclosure, and are having to give up there dogs because they have to move into a smaller house/apartment, and just can't afford there pets anymore.

I've seen the price on purebreds drop dramatically the last few years. And those breeders that don't drop there prices are ending up stuck with there dogs, or trying to sell them when there 6 months old, are greatly reduced prices.

I ran into this exact situation recently. The breeder wanted a fortune for there puppies(too much in my opinion), but they had one that was 6 months old that looked like it would work for me. But, they were stuck on a price that was still too high. When I tried to negotiate, they told me good luck, and that was the end of it. I might also mention that this 6-month old was not potty trained or leash trained, and they still wanted over $1000 for him. This was about a month ago, and they still have him. Get a clue......lower your prices.

Lastly; shop around. I'm sure there are plenty of breeders here that will give you good advice. Make sure the breeder you chose is a member of the AKC, and if there is a local Golden chapter, make sure they are a member of that too. Also, very important, request a list of email address' of former purchasers, and contact them to see how satisfied they were with there puppies.

Good luck.


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## Tinsley

iflyems said:


> In my opinion, there dogs appear to be "cookie cutter" dogs, or clones. They all look the same, and mostly act the same.


I have to disagree with this statement. English Golden's look different just like Americans and all act very differently, unless all the one's you have met have perhaps been in the same litter..?

English Retrievers also tend to be stockier than Americans, therefore larger not smaller. 

Don't wish to sound mean just not keen on the statement(s).

Good luck with finding your golden!


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## Tahnee GR

I would want to know exactly what "fully papered and cleared" means. Is the dog AKC, or is it one of the other registries? What clearances were done on the parents? They need to have hips cleared through the OFA or Penn Hip, some use other sources such as OVC or BVA but in the US it is generally OFA. Elbows through the OFA. Eyes cleared annually through CERF and done by a veterinarly opthamologist. Hearts cleared at least once after a year of age and done by a veterinary cardiologist. If the clearances are not listed on the OFA site www.offa.org then the breeder should be able to show you copies of the clearances. These same clearances need to have been done for several generations back, else how does the breeder know the history? Doing the clearances only on the current generation is not enough.

Also find out what kind of guarantee/warranty the breeder offers. It should cover the dog for at least 2 years, if offered, and should never require the return of the original puppy.

And unfortunately for the good breeders in Missouri, it is known as the puppy mill state.


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## iflyems

Tahnee GR said:


> I would want to know exactly what "fully papered and cleared" means. Is the dog AKC, or is it one of the other registries? What clearances were done on the parents? They need to have hips cleared through the OFA or Penn Hip, some use other sources such as OVC or BVA but in the US it is generally OFA. Elbows through the OFA. Eyes cleared annually through CERF and done by a veterinarly opthamologist. Hearts cleared at least once after a year of age and done by a veterinary cardiologist. If the clearances are not listed on the OFA site www.offa.org then the breeder should be able to show you copies of the clearances. These same clearances need to have been done for several generations back, else how does the breeder know the history? Doing the clearances only on the current generation is not enough.
> 
> Also find out what kind of guarantee/warranty the breeder offers. It should cover the dog for at least 2 years, if offered, and should never require the return of the original puppy.
> 
> And unfortunately for the good breeders in Missouri, it is known as the puppy mill state.


You took the words right out of my mouth. Having lived there for a time, I've seen this first hand, and its not pretty.
And, I forgot about the hips/elbows/eyes. If a breeder can't offer you those results, and a health guarantee, run away!!
There are PLENTY of reputable breeders out there, who also produce English Creme's. Shop around.


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## jluke

*Have an English Standard Golden Retriever Puppy*

Hello,

In September, we added an "English Standard" Golden Retriever puppy to our family. We weren't specifically looking for a puppy from English/European lines, but specifically liked the breeder and our puppy's dam and sire very much. Both parents had the required health clearances mentioned. Also, the timing of the litter was good for our family. We'd previously had two rescued adult "American" Golden Retrievers.

To your point about getting dirty -- it's definitely true! Maisie is strikingly attractive with her very light coat, but here in Maryland, now that we're into leafy, rainy November, keeping her even somewhat clean is a challenge. She loves leaf piles and puddles -- and I don't have the heart to keep her out of them since she has so much fun pouncing and prancing in them.

So, having had both types of Goldens, I'd agree with the other posts: choose based on your comfort level with the breeder. For what it's worth, in this area, puppies seem to range from about $1,200 to $2,000.



iflyems said:


> Thanks for the replies. I'm very leery of a lot of "backyard breeders".
> Sam, my former Golden, was purchased from such a breeder. He never developed any hip or eye problems, but developed a fatal kidney problem at only 9 years of age.
> He was very health one day, and deathly ill the next, and died 3 days later.
> 
> I'm trying to avoid a similar fate. In my opinion, there dogs appear to be "cookie cutter" dogs, or clones. They all look the same, and mostly act the same. I'm extremely drawn to the breed though, as I never met a friendlier, more outgoing dog than my Sam.
> 
> I've done a lot of research online, and am familiar with all the test, etc. AKC has a very thorough website/guide.
> 
> I have found a couple "light coat" goldens in the Phoenix area. Both are being "marketed" as "rare", etc.
> 
> I've also seen that "english" goldens tend to be smaller, and blockier than there "american" cousins.
> 
> I may lean towards a light coated American Golden, as I like the size. I'm also under the impression that the color on the tips of the ears, is generally the coat color the dog will achieve as it gets older.
> 
> But, color isn't necessarily a dominate factor in my buying decision. Health and temperment would be number one on the list.
> 
> Besides, everyone knows how dirty a Golden can get when you take them to the lake. Can you imagine how dirty a white on would get??


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## annef

ems said:


> Hello. Please look for a dog with all the health checks, dont judge a book by its cover! Our beautiful breed needs to be bred for temperament, health and then last beauty. Im told that the cream gene is dominent over the gold so here in the UK we need to ensure that some of our lines remain gold. I know of a breeder that wont look at cream dog for this very reason.


 I am not at all sure that is true, would be interested to know where you found that information and would like to read the research about it. I bred a litter 6 months ago where dam was mid gold but had a very pale sire with pale lines behind, mated her to a pale dog , line bred to her sire and we had 11 puppies 8 dark gold 2 who will end pale gold and one cream!!

With over 40 years in the breed I still see many golden dogs out there and winning in the ring. I think they tend to be paler in Scandanavia and some of Europe. Colour would never be a consideration in my breeding plans everything else should come first in my opiniion Annef


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