# Canidae to Science Diet? I'm CONFUSED!!



## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

I did research on dog food about two years ago, and I decided to go with Canidae. It was the best quality around my area, with a good price.

Today I was told by a coworker [I work at PetSmart] that the more holistic foods, such as Canidae, have been sometimes killing dogs. She told me that dog food brands are making the food more and more like people food... with high protein, and low carbs. She said that there isn't enough carbs in the holistic foods to break down all of the protein. She stated that this has led to pancreas cancer, kidney failure, and liver failure. She has a master's in animal behavior and nutrition, and has spent a lot of time in labs doing studies on dog food and more. So her opinion definitely made me re-think myself.

She recommends Nature's Best by Science Diet, Science Diet Lamb Meal & Rice, and Science Diet Original.

PLEASE help me... I am SO confused now.

Is she correct? Does anyone feed any of these dog foods? Any additional information would be AWESOME!

Thank YOU in advance!!


----------



## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Well....I don't particularly trust holistic foods.....but I don't like Science Diet either.

I know that Science Diet, Purina and Iams do a lot of research and I DO think their formulas are based on research (though I think they have varying qualities of formulas). I also think these commercial companies know more then holistic companies do on nutrition and its effects. So its possible she may have something but I have NEVER seen anything to substantiate what she said.


----------



## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Hills drills thier food into vets and nutrionists.


----------



## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

Oh, & if you have any other recommendations... I am definitely OPEN TO THEM!!!! PLEASE!! :]

I have always been anti-science diet... so I just don't feel right about it. Ya know?


----------



## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

If Canidae is working for you stay with it.


----------



## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

There are a lot of people on this forum that have used Canadae and have been happy. It sounds like it worked for you. It has a track record in my opinion. And....it isn't grain free anyway....so it does have those carbonhydrates....


----------



## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

My dogs will work on anything, honestly. I just want to feed them what is best, and I want them to live as long as they can. My coworker said Science Diet is the only food that tests for longevity. I just don't know...


----------



## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

i believe feed what you can afford to buy not everyone has the money to buy in bulk or the expensive brands. Like me i'm only on the pension so theres no way i can afford to feed hills science diet,advance,Iams etc as there out of my price range. 

For me i go to grain store which stocks pet food i get coprice family dog 20kgs for $20, My guys also get fresh bones. Sometimes when i can afford it and have room in the freezer i get raw meat for my dogs. My guys also get table scraps every now and again like mash potato,pumpkin,beans,carrots also cooked meat. My guys also get an raw egg once a week or sometimes every 2 weeks. I know most dog owners don't like the food i feed my dogs but i feed what i can afford to feed.


----------



## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

I agree with Hooch. The key is who paid for the nutritional training and studies she's taken? Hills perhaps? They do finance a great deal of the Vet's nutritional training and Vets reimburse by "selling" their products. 

Where is she an animal nutritionist? Or is she an animal behaviorist with some seminars in animal nutrition? Just curious.

I'll bet she really hates food like Orijen. HIGH protein, very low carbs.


----------



## jnmarr (Mar 7, 2008)

HMMMMMMMMM, makes one wonder who was conducting those tests. I agree with Hooch.. if it ain't broke don't fix it.


----------



## Faith's mommy (Feb 26, 2007)

in case you haven't seen this before

http://www.ourdogsonline.com/content/sciencedietscam.html



I originally wrote this opinion piece for my personal blog on March 12th 2004 but decided it would be more acccessible to a wider audience in this location. You may link to this article directly, or reproduce it for non-commercial purposes, as long as my copyright notice, byline and all embedded links are left intact.

*The Science Diet Scam*

By Sabine Contreras, BetterDogCare.com, © Sabine Contreras 2004-2008

Of all the crooks in the commercial pet food industry, Hill's (the maker of Science Diet and Prescription Diet foods) has got to be the worst. The fact that their slogan "Veterinarian Recommended" is a cleverly used trademark is just the beginning. If you don't know even some very basic facts about commercial pet food, I suggest you poke around on my Dog Food Website for a bit before reading on. Of course you can also read this article first and then go there to read up on the details you don't understand.

Warning: this is going to be a long read.

*Let's dive in with a short summary:*

Science Diet is a pet food that is often recommended by veterinarians, and is heavily advertised, so many people buy it, thinking they are giving their pets the best product on the market. The fact that it is pretty popular doesn't make it a quality product though.

*Why is Science Diet recommended by veterinarians?*

The answer is simple and Tara Parker-Pope of the Wall Street Journal probably said it best in her article "Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow" (reprinted here):
_[...] Borrowing a page from the pharmaceuticals companies, which routinely woo doctors to prescribe their drugs, Hill's has spent a generation cultivating its professional following. It spends hundreds of thousands of dollars a year funding university research and nutrition courses at every one of the 27 U.S. veterinary colleges. Once in practice, vets who sell Science Diet and other premium foods directly from their offices pocket profits of as much as 40%. [...]"_​So there you have it - veterinarians don't recommend this food because they are convinced it's a great product, but because they make a profit and have other personal benefits. To the contrary of what many people think, nutrition is not a major subject in veterinary schools, and most of the courses offered are sponsored by one of the pet food giants. Any vets specializing in nutrition or following a holistic approach do their own research outside of what they were taught at college. If you look at books about pet nutrition, you will find that pet food companies are involved in those too. Need some examples?
*The Waltham Book of Companion Animal Nutrition*
Does Waltham ring a bell? Pedigree, Whiskas, Cesar, Sheba? The stuff you find on the shelves of the pet supply aisle at your grocery or department store?
*Canine and Feline Nutrition: A Resource for Companion Animal Professionals.*
Daniel P. Carey, Diane A. Hirakawa and Leighann Daristotle, all three of them employees of the IAMS Company in leading positions. The fourth person, who edited this book, is Linda P. Case, the only independent on the team, but she also endorses the products this company manufactures. ​Look at others used as textbooks at veterinary schools and investigate the authors. You'd be surprised at the level of involvement of the pet food industry. But I don't want to spin conspiracy theories here. No doubt that research is needed to learn more about how to keep our pets healthy, and that it has to be funded somehow - but as a consumer I do not appreciate being left in the dark, much less mislead purposely about what is best for my pet. So back to the topic at hand:
Have you ever looked at the ingredient lists of Science Diet products and compared those ingredients to the claims Hill's makes about the quality of their foods? Well, I have. And frankly, it disgusts me how many people get scammed into buying an overpriced product of poor quality just because they don't know much about what they are actually feeding their pets.

*Adult Original?*
Mostly grains with some chicken and chicken byproducts, animal fat and some chicken liver flavor. 48.1% carbohydrates.

*Adult Beef (or Chicken or Lamb) & Rice Recipe?*
Some beef, chicken or lamb and some rice or rice fragments, but mainly other grains (corn meal, soybean meal, ground grain sorghum, ground wheat), some chicken byproducts (except in the lamb variety - and yes, even the "beef" variety most likely has more chicken byproducts than beef!), animal fat, beet pulp and flavors. 50.6%, 50.2% and 48.7% carbohydrates respectively. I'm beginning to get the impression we are trying to feed cattle here, not animals with a carnivorous background!

The other "normal" foods of the main product line follow pretty much the same principle, but it gets worse when we get to the so-called "light", "oral care", "sensitive stomach" or "senior" products. 16% "soybean mill run" (read floor sweepings) and 10.8% peanut hulls? And you are paying how much per bag for this crap? $29? $33? $38? More??? Talk about being taken for a ride. Did your vet recommend that too?

But it gets better yet. We haven't discussed the fairly new "Nature's Best" line yet. It's available " with real beef" or "with real chicken". Go have a look at the ingredient lists, I'll wait.

Did you check it out? Good. What did you see? As you may know (or not), the ingredients are listed by descending weight proportions as they appear processing. What I see is that the first two ingredients are rice fractions and wheat and the third is turkey. The "real" beef or chicken is listed 7th and not even among the main ingredients. As per AAFCO labeling rules, a product labeled "with [something]" only has to include a minimum of 3% of the named ingredient by total weight. Out of the 6 main ingredients, 4 are grains or grain byproducts, one is a poor quality source of fat (rendered from nonspecified animals, possibly including euthanized pets) and only one is actually an animal-based protein. Peas, carrots and flavorings in small quantities round out the "wholesome goodness found in nature" advertised by the manufacturer as "real beef/chicken, real garden vegetables and wholesome grains - the best of everything". Mind you that not even USDA inspected ingredients are used, so my guess would rather be feed grade grains and poor quality meat.

*It's hard to believe that even that can be topped, but they did it!*

Yes, it is possible. Believe it or not. Enter "Science Diet Advanced Protection" - the ultimate scam, Hill's attempt to secure its market share, riding on the more and more popular natural/holistic wave. I present you the ingredient list of this product with "patent-pending breakthrough of nutritional technology" boasting a "unique antioxidant blend, sourced from ingredients like citrus fruits, carrots, spinach and tomatoes":

*========== Main ingredients ====================*
*corn meal* (not ideal as a first ingredient, which should be a quality source of animal protein)
*chicken by-product meal* (anything but quality cuts of meat!)
*soybean meal* (a byproduct of the manufacturing process of soybean oil)
*animal fat* (rendered fat of unspecified animals, possibly diseased, decayed or even euthanized pets)

*========== Present in lesser quantities ============*
flaxseed (no complaints here)
chicken liver flavor (a higher amount of a flavoring ingredient than vegetables? interesting...)
dried egg product (a byproduct of the egg grading industry instead of fresh, whole eggs?)
dried carrots (instead of fresh carrots?)
dried spinach (instead of fresh spinach?)
dried grape pomace (when it is known that grapes can be toxic to dogs?)
dried tomato pomace (a byproduct of the tomato processing industry)
dried citrus pulp (the dried residue of peel, pulp and seeds of oranges, grapefruit and other citrus fruit - a byproduct more suitable as cattle feed, but in this product actually marketed to make the consumer think it's "citrus fruit"?.)
vegetable oil (could be worse I suppose, but a specific oil like sunflower oil would be preferable.)
oat fiber (as opposed to whole grain oats that include the entire range of nutrients?)
and some amino acid supplements, rosemary extract, minerals and vitamins.

Just for comparison I'll list the ingredient list of a product that has a similar formula but actually includes clean, good quality ingredients:

Chicken, turkey, chicken meal, turkey meal, brown rice, pearled barley, lamb meal, oatmeal, chicken fat, dried eggs, salmon, natural flavoring, canola oil, flaxseed, fresh potatoes, fresh carrots, fresh peas, whole fresh apples, cranberries, dried chicory root, salt, potassium chloride, lecithin, garlic, vitamins, dehydrated kelp, minerals, yucca schidigera extract, sage extract, digestive enzymes and probiotics.

The manufacturer of the above mentioned quality product guarantees that all ingredients are human grade and free of antibiotics or hormones - an assurance of quality you will never hear from Hill's. If I told you that this food costs about the same (or even less) per 35 lb bag than Science Diet "Advanced Protection", would you believe me? What about if I said that one 35 lb bag of this quality food would last longer than 35 lbs of "Advanced Protection" because it contains less grains and more quality animal protein - and thus is more digestible and provides better nutrition?

*So are you still getting scammed or already looking into a better dog food?*

Don't be fooled, Hill's is not the only company trying to convince you to shell out your hard earned money for a poor quality product. Many other pet food manufacturers are doing the same thing, all you need to do is watch the cute, colorful commercials on TV or walk down the pet food aisle at your grocery or department store. Heck, even your local pet store is likely to have more crappy brands than good ones on their shelves.

So for the sake of your dog (and the same goes for other pets as well!), next time you go shopping for pet food, don't just toss a random bag with a bargain price tag into the cart, but look at the ingredient list.

Or even better, do your homework beforehand so you actually know what to look for.


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Is Canidae considered Holistic? My two have been eating Canidae for years now. I'm not changing unless I see something with my two that necessitates a change.

I wonder what schooling your co-worker has had, too? I have a friend who is so articulate you would believe every word she says. Even she will tell you, she's really not that smart...LOL


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Faith's mommy said:


> in case you haven't seen this before
> 
> http://www.ourdogsonline.com/content/sciencedietscam.html
> 
> ...


 
BRAVO, BRAVO, BRAVO !!!!!

Thank you so much for that...... VERY well written.


----------



## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

Kimm said:


> Is Canidae considered Holistic? My two have been eating Canidae for years now. I'm not changing unless I see something with my two that necessitates a change.
> 
> I wonder what schooling your co-worker has had, too? I have a friend who is so articulate you would believe every word she says. Even she will tell you, she's really not that smart...LOL


She got her masters in animal behavior and nutrition at K-State. She often goes to OSU Vet School to give seminars about nutrition and behavior. She has shown dogs pretty much her entire life, and has handled many of the top dogs in the country... she used to be a professional handler. She is about 50-55 years old, is my guess. She is definitely one of those people you described. She was telling me and another coworker, who feeds Blue, about Science Diet, and the other coworker bought Science Diet last night! She completely trusted her.

I knew I wanted to do more research before I immediately switched, because I have always read such negative things about Science Diet. 

Everyone...
Thanks for the information!! Feel free to add more!! :]


----------



## Faith's mommy (Feb 26, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Thank you so much for that...... VERY well written.


 
i just wanted to be clear - i left the author's name and copyright info on the top. i think of her as "Mordanna" and she has an excellent site to learn about ingredient lists.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=labelinfo101


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

uhmanda00 said:


> She got her masters in animal behavior and nutrition at K-State. She often goes to OSU Vet School to give seminars about nutrition and behavior. She has shown dogs pretty much her entire life, and has handled many of the top dogs in the country... she used to be a professional handler. She is about 50-55 years old, is my guess. She is definitely one of those people you described. She was telling me and another coworker, who feeds Blue, about Science Diet, and the other coworker bought Science Diet last night! She completely trusted her.
> 
> I knew I wanted to do more research before I immediately switched, because I have always read such negative things about Science Diet.
> 
> ...


Well, she must know something! Food drives me crazy. I always wonder about the Gaines Burgers and Wagon Train my childhood dog used to eat. She lived to be 16. My Mom would just buy whatever was on sale in the grocery store that week. 

That dog was not sick a day in her life. She started having strokes and after the second she had to be put down. I think the only money ever spent on her was when I was very young (maybe 3rd grade) I payed to have her spayed from my savings.


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

uhmanda00 said:


> I did research on dog food about two years ago, and I decided to go with Canidae. It was the best quality around my area, with a good price.
> 
> Today I was told by a coworker [I work at PetSmart] that the more holistic foods, such as Canidae, have been sometimes killing dogs. She told me that dog food brands are making the food more and more like people food... with high protein, and low carbs. She said that there isn't enough carbs in the holistic foods to break down all of the protein. She stated that this has led to pancreas cancer, kidney failure, and liver failure. She has a master's in animal behavior and nutrition, and has spent a lot of time in labs doing studies on dog food and more. So her opinion definitely made me re-think myself.
> 
> ...


 
That's pretty bizarre since most recommend a grain free, high protein diet for cancer dogs. The explanation being that the cancer "feeds" off the carbs. Most all of the canine nutritionists I've heard of recommend a meat based diet.... certainly not one whose main ingredient is corn. BTW, what is her position at Petsmart??? I think you are wise to do your own research and talk to many you respect and make your own decision.


----------



## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

nutrition is not a large focus in vet school (from vet student friends) they get one or two classes ...

SD PAYS the vets and PAYS for the nutritional training ... anyone telling you SD is higher quality than Canidae .... well you should just smile and nod in my opinion 

Faith's mommy said it all!! (well her article did)


----------



## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

I would be pretty hesitant to trust this person. I can think of several people who claim to have more experience showing dogs than they actually do, and there have been many advancements in dog nutrition since whenever she was in graduate school.

Carbs are not required to break down proteins (all you need is water, enzymes which are proteins themselves, and coenzymes which are usually vitamins or small molecules made from vitamins). Also whatever you believe about raw diets, it's obvious that many dogs survive on them for many years, and they don't include carbs. The risk of kidney failure is also a myth: http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth

She also must not know much specifically about high-quality brands, because Canidae doesn't contain much more protein than Science Diet, and neither does Blue or any of the higher-quality foods sold in Petsmart (they just have more digestible protein from higher quality sources). Even the highest-protein grain-free foods still have around 30% carbohydrates and fruits/vegetables/etc.

The smaller independent companies don't just ignore all the research sponsored by the larger companies. There is significant research about the digestibility of different ingredients, nutritional requirements for working dogs, etc that smaller companies know about and learn from. But the larger companies tend to have more external influences that require them to go against some of their findings (the need to keep prices low enough for the grocery store or Petsmart, be useful as garbage disposal to the large human-food companies that own them, etc).


----------



## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

uhmanda00 said:


> She got her masters in animal behavior and nutrition at K-State. She often goes to OSU Vet School to give seminars about nutrition and behavior.


See now there is the problem with her right there. K State and hangs out in OSU. Go Huskers!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Read the book, "Food Pets Die For" by Ann N Martin. It's a shocking read but very educational about the pet food industry. You'll have a much better idea of what you want in your food. BTW, the foreword is by a very well respected holistic vet here in the Dallas area ( Shawn Messonier, DVM)


----------



## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

Just thought I would add a little story here....the boy I grew up with next door is now a vet. He provides Science Diet food for his mom's dog and that 3 year old dog is constantly ill. It's had kennel cough, skin sores, cracked, and bleeding paw problems, lameness and severe gastrointestinal issues. I was talking to his mom a couple of weeks ago and she was telling me that at least once per week the dog is up all night throwing up and is so lethargic for days, etc. I asked what her son thought and she said that he thinks they should do blood work and maybe try a different food. I told her about the Great Dane Lady (neighbor's dog is a Dane) and told her what a great resource it was for me. 

I would love to show her the Science Diet article above but her son is a vet and the one recommending the food, and I don't want to be offensive to her.

Another thing that surprised me is she said they ran out of food one day and had to go to the store to buy the Science Diet because her son wasn't visiting anytime soon and it cost her $70 (Cdn). For what's in SD I cannot believe the price. The quality meat based foods I buy are less money or around the same amount.


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Goldilocks said:


> Just thought I would add a little story here....the boy I grew up with next door is now a vet. He provides Science Diet food for his mom's dog and that 3 year old dog is constantly ill. It's had kennel cough, skin sores, cracked, and bleeding paw problems, lameness and severe gastrointestinal issues. I was talking to his mom a couple of weeks ago and she was telling me that at least once per week the dog is up all night throwing up and is so lethargic for days, etc. I asked what her son thought and she said that he thinks they should do blood work and maybe try a different food. I told her about the Great Dane Lady (neighbor's dog is a Dane) and told her what a great resource it was for me.
> 
> I would love to show her the Science Diet article above but her son is a vet and the one recommending the food, and I don't want to be offensive to her.
> 
> Another thing that surprised me is she said they ran out of food one day and had to go to the store to buy the Science Diet because her son wasn't visiting anytime soon and it cost her $70 (Cdn). For what's in SD I cannot believe the price. The quality meat based foods I buy are less money or around the same amount.


I so hope she looks at the great dane lady's site and gets rid of that **** Science Diet. I'm sorry but the son sounds like a complete jerk if his own mother's dog can be sick for that long and he's not doing anything. This just breaks my heart for that poor pupper. Yeah, Hills is all about the profit margin..... but, hey with all the floods this year, the cost of corn has gone up.


----------



## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

uhmanda00 said:


> I did research on dog food about two years ago, and I decided to go with Canidae. It was the best quality around my area, with a good price.
> 
> Today I was told by a coworker [I work at PetSmart] that the more holistic foods, such as Canidae, have been sometimes killing dogs. She told me that dog food brands are making the food more and more like people food... with high protein, and low carbs. She said that there isn't enough carbs in the holistic foods to break down all of the protein. She stated that this has led to pancreas cancer, kidney failure, and liver failure. She has a master's in animal behavior and nutrition, and has spent a lot of time in labs doing studies on dog food and more. So her opinion definitely made me re-think myself.
> 
> ...


I have a question, not to make you mad but if she is such an educated person why is she working at PetSmart.
I wouldn't change my food, it works for you're dogs stick with it.
Just thought of something could she be working with Science Diet Foods and gets a cut if she sells the product?


----------



## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

My goldens at the Bridge who lived to be 12,12 and 14 were fed grocery store dog food. My dad actually sold Purina when I was a kid so I fed my dogs Purina Dog Chow. They were healthy too except for the one who had incorrectly treated hypothyroidism.

Selka and Gunner have been fed much higher quality food. Will they live longer? Time will tell. But I feel much better knowing I am feeding my dogs quality food not corn with some meat by products and who knows what else they scraped off the floor.
Most of us hopefully live and learn. I know the golden lovers here on GRF do!


----------



## Augie's Mom (Sep 28, 2007)

What a small world. I actually know Sabine and we hung out this weekend at the Rally trials competing with our dogs. I never knew this about her, we usually talk training not food.



Faith's mommy said:


> in case you haven't seen this before
> 
> http://www.ourdogsonline.com/content/sciencedietscam.html
> 
> ...


----------



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Heidi36oh said:


> I have a question, not to make you mad but if she is such an educated person why is she working at PetSmart.
> I wouldn't change my food, it works for you're dogs stick with it.
> Just thought of something could she be working with Science Diet Foods and gets a cut if she sells the product?


I thought the same thing! _She has a master's in animal behavior and nutrition, and has spent a lot of time in labs doing studies on dog food and more _and yet she's working at PetsMart?


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

uhmanda00 said:


> My dogs will work on anything, honestly. I just want to feed them what is best, and I want them to live as long as they can. My coworker said Science Diet is the only food that tests for longevity. I just don't know...


Hills, Iams, and Nestle Purina all do long term (life long) feeding trials studying nutrition needs as well as longevity. While the brand loyalty (Ra Ra Science Diet) may overshadow the discussion, the data collected and results learned are valid. 

In other words the lessons learned about carbs are valid but you don't necessarilly need to feed Science Diet. There are many good kibbles available including but not limited to Pro Plan, Eukanuba, Eagle Pack, Native, and many others. They may not follow the trendy "Holistic Philosophy" based foods that are all the rage at this time, but they will fulfill the nutritional needs of most normal healthy dogs for a lifetime.


----------



## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I thought the same thing! _She has a master's in animal behavior and nutrition, and has spent a lot of time in labs doing studies on dog food and more _and yet she's working at PetsMart?


Seems a little weired don't it.


----------



## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

*CANIDAE TO SCIENCE DIET ??? *


----------



## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

I have never seen them do a study that favorably compares the longevity of dogs fed their food to dogs fed a higher-quality brand or even one of their similar-quality competitors. They usually only compare their brand to grocery store brands, or the "new and improved" version of their brand to an older version. 

For example the Dog Chow commercials used to say that "Dog Chow fed properly over a dog's lifetime can add up to 2 healthy years to your dog's life." Great, but they could be comparing Dog Chow to something even worse, or it could be dogs in a clean/safe kennel environment eating Dog Chow living longer than the average dog life expectancy, or it could have nothing to do with the actual food quality and be "Dog Chow fed properly" versus Dog Chow fed improperly.

Did the studies that "proved" high-protein foods are dangerous use actual meat as the primary protein source, or did they use low-quality byproducts and corn gluten meal? My guess would be the latter, since those are the primary protein sources in these companies' foods. Of course dogs would not do too well on a 42% protein food if all the protein comes from the fraction of a kernel left over after making cornstarch.


----------



## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

She began going to dog shows when she was four years old, then she became a junior handler, her parents owned a boarding kennel and showed dogs, then she went to college and got a degree in art or art history. later she went back to school and got her masters in the behavior/nutrition. she was a professional dog trainer for many years, and showed the top english setters and shih-tzus in the country. she quit doing that, and eventually came to petsmart 7 years ago. she is the area pet trainer who trains associates throughout the state and surrounding states to become pet trainers. i honestly don't know why she works at petsmart, other than she just wanted to do something different than handling, because she was getting tired of it. she did say that petsmart constantly asked her to come work for them, but she never did until they became 100% positive reinforcement training.

today, the other girl i'm training with asked me if she thinks she gets paid from hills. i told her i wasn't sure, but i wouldn't be surprised if she did get paid from the company. 

i am ready to switch foods from canidae to something that they sell at petsmart. canidae is getting more and more expensive every time i buy it, and i'm paying for 35lbs when they used to sell it in 40lbs bags. i plan on working at petsmart for another year [until i go to college], so i would like to switch foods over to something where i can get my discount. are there any foods at petsmart that you would highly recommend?? 

thanks again!


----------



## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

Sciene Diet Is Not My Idea Of A Food I Would Want My Dogs On All The Time--tho My Cousin's Very Healthy 15 Year Old Sheltie Has Been On It His Entire Life. However, When Kaycee Put On All That Wiegt With Her Bad Knees, Her Surgeries, Her Recoveries, Nothing Seemed To Work Getting The Weight Off Til She Went Onto Science Diet R/d And That Took The Weight Off And She Never Regrained It. At 10 Buck--who Coulnd't Handle Richer Foods, But Did Great On Puina , Got His First Kidney Infection--his Only Sicknes In His Life. He Was Put On The Science Diet K/d For 3 Months. He Didn't Like Tit But His Kidney Problem Cleared Up And He Never Had Another One. I Do Think It Has It's Place.


----------



## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> Well, she must know something! Food drives me crazy. I always wonder about the Gaines Burgers and Wagon Train my childhood dog used to eat. She lived to be 16. My Mom would just buy whatever was on sale in the grocery store that week.
> 
> That dog was not sick a day in her life.


And most of those dogs (not sure about yours) got a lot of table scraps too. That might have been key.

Carrie, our Yellow Lab lived to be 17.....on grocery store junk food. BUT, she also got whatever we had for breakfast, lunch and dinner with her meals. Meat, grains, veggies, fruits, eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese, regular cheese, etc etc.

I've read that if you're feeding a commercial diet, it's a good idea to add "human" foods to them. Of course, you need to adjust the dry food to keep the weight down, but the combination doesn't hurt dogs, it tends to help them be healthier.

Of course I can't remember where I read that. If I find it again....I'll post it.

Oh.....and an interesting read is on the Orijen site. Click on "White Paper"

http://www.championpetfoods.com/orijen/orijen/

Oh...and about feeding a food you can find at PetSmart......I think different stores carry different brands. It might depend on the demographics of the area (especially the financial demographics). There's nothing in our PetSmart that I've found to feed our dogs, yet.


----------



## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

Ardeagold said:


> Oh...and about feeding a food you can find at PetSmart......I think different stores carry different brands. It might depend on the demographics of the area (especially the financial demographics). There's nothing in our PetSmart that I've found to feed our dogs, yet.


Are any of these PetSmart foods good: Bil-Jac, Blue Buffalo, Nature's Best, Nature's Recipe, Pro Plan, Pro Plan Selects?

Thanks.


----------



## Wilson's REAL Mom (Nov 10, 2006)

Blue Buffalo is good. We used to have Wilson on it before we switched to Canidae because Canidae was cheaper. Who knows, now. Canidae (and everything else) has gone through the roof.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

As regards our childhood dogs living longer while being fed Gracy Train, Alpo, Dog Chow and Kibbles and Bits (The Lucky Charms of pet food!) I think that there is a lot more to consider than just the food. Environmental factors should be considered, as well, and in the last 20 years or so we have certainly seen exposure to more carcinogens, as well as what is now known to be the over vaccination of our pets. So, while nutrition is exceptionally important, it may not have been the only factor in our old pals having lived longer. Additionally, when our pets did die, not so many of us pursued the determination of cause of death, do we just don't know.
That said, I have never felt that Science Diet was all that good a food, simply based on the quality of coat and stool in the dogs that I saw who were fed SD. The article about Hills SD wooing veterinarians is absolutely correct, as is the fact that vets do not receive much training in nutrition at all. The vet that I worked for sent me to many nutrition seminars, "if I was interested". He since became interested in holistic and alternative therapies, and now says that he was "so duped" by Hills.
I feed ProPlan, and have for many years, and am extremely pleased with the results. I get great coats, excellent condition, overall good health, and longevity. It seems to be of a consistent quality (they aren't always messing with their forumlas - too often I see "NEW and IMPROVED!" on bags of food and all of a sudden the dogs either have digestive issues or simply turn their noses up at it...) is readily available, and my dogs ALWAYS eat it enthusiastically.
I do feel that the "holistic" and "natural" foods which are so trendy these days are just that - "trendy", and I have seen little evidence that dogs that are fed these products do any better, or in many cases even as well as, my dogs who have been fed ProPlan for so many years. *(note that I DID switch to one of the popular and highly rated "holistic" foods for approx a year, and the results were disastrous. The dogs were fine for several months, and then it went south BIG time - loose stool, TERRIBLE coats, and they didn't want to eat the stuff. Back to ProPlan with a vow to NEVER do that again...) This is not based on anything "scientific", but simply gross observation - coat, condition, vigor, longevity. Additionally, I have not had to see my vet for anything other than routine care in years. 
I 've said it before - there is a reason that the top winning dogs in the country in many venues are fed ProPlan.


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Sparky died in 2002. She was 17.


----------



## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

*HOLISTIC & NATURAL ALL THE WAY FOR ME !*
I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THE AIR MY DOGS BREATH & WATER THEY DRINK BUT WHEN IT COMES TO FOOD IF I CAN HELP IT & AS LONG AS I CAN AFFORD IT, I WILL AVOID BY-PRODUCTS, ARTIFICIAL FLAVORS- PRESERVATIVES-SWEETENERS, UNSPECIFIED FATS, POOR QUALITY PROTEIN SOURCES, GMO's, HORMONES, ANTIBIOTICS IN MY DOGS' FOOD. UNLESS YOU CAN CONVINCE ME THAT THESE ARE GOOD FOR THEM ... TRENDY ?


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Well...my two eat Canidae...LOL


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

T&T said:


> *HOLISTIC & NATURAL ALL THE WAY FOR ME !*
> I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THE AIR MY DOGS BREATH & WATER THEY DRINK BUT WHEN IT COMES TO FOOD IF I CAN HELP IT & AS LONG AS I CAN AFFORD IT, I WILL AVOID BY-PRODUCTS, ARTIFICIAL FLAVORS- PRESERVATIVES-SWEETENERS, UNSPECIFIED FATS, POOR QUALITY PROTEIN SOURCES, GMO's, HORMONES, ANTIBIOTICS IN MY DOGS' FOOD. UNLESS YOU CAN CONVINCE ME THAT THESE ARE GOOD FOR THEM ... TRENDY ?


 
I understand and respect this. However, where my problem lies is with those who tell me that what I feed MY dogs is BAD for them, when more often than not, my ProPlan fed dogs are healthier and live longer than theirs who are fed either raw or any number of the currently popular "holistic/natural" products.


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I'd give ProPlan a shot if I get to a point I don't want to use Canidae.


----------



## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I understand and respect this. However, where my problem lies is with those who tell me that what I feed MY dogs is BAD for them, when more often than not, my ProPlan fed dogs are healthier and live longer than theirs who are fed either raw or any number of the currently popular "holistic/natural" products.


YOU MAKE ME LAUGH !!! :lol:

THERE MUST BE DOGS OUT THERE WHO DON'T EAT PROPLAN BUT STILL LIVE HEALTHY LONG LIVES ?!  

I DON'T REALLY PROMOTE ANY FOOD CO. IN PARTICULAR. 
DIFFERENT DOGS HAVE DIFFERENT NEEDS & WHAT WORKS FOR MY DOGS MAY NOT WORK FOR YOURS. I WILL HOWEVER MAKE MY SELECTION CRITERIA KNOWN & GLADLY SHARE ANY INFO I CAN GET MY HANDS ON REGARDING TRICKS OF THE $ FOOD TRADE $ THAT I SO DO NOT TRUST ! 

I THINK EVERYONE HERE WANTS WHAT'S BEST FOR THEIR DOGS, AND THERE IS MORE THAN ONE GOOD FOOD CO. OUT THERE !


P.S. DOES PROPLAN HAVE A PENGUIN FORMULA ? LOL


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

T&T said:


> YOU MAKE ME LAUGH !!! :lol:
> 
> THERE MUST BE DOGS OUT THERE WHO DON'T EAT PROPLAN BUT STILL LIVE HEALTHY LONG LIVES ?!
> 
> ...


I think that you are absolutely right on all counts. ProPlan works for me and therefore I recommend it. I have said on this forum that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But I will tell you that I have in fact (on another GR list) actually been told that I am "murdering" my dogs by feeding them kibble. That same person told me that my dogs would be happier, healthier, and live longer if I fed raw. :scratchch In the meantime, that same person has had some very sick dogs, and lost 2 within a short time of each other, neither very old. I have also said that one of the things that I appreciate about this forum is that no one attempts to shove raw feeding down anyones throat, whereas there are fanatics on the other list who do, and who put me off of even wanting to study it. No one here "slams" another's preference in foods, (with the exception of a time or two where I have seen ProPlan among others referred to as "crap") but rather shares what they feed, the ingredients, their experience with it, and lets the other person make their choice. Their opinions can be made with it becoming a big hurl-fest. That is refreshing. 
I am quite sure that there are other foods that dogs do well on, and that there are plenty of dogs not fed ProPlan who enjoy excellent longevity. As I feed ProPlan, my oipinions and commentaries are based on my own experinces and comparison of my dogs to the dogs of those who have challenged me about feeding ProPlan. 
I have no doubts whatsoever that every person on this forum wants what is best for their dogs.


----------



## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm not looking to start trouble but I've noticed on a few breeders websites (Goldens and otherwise) that it is mentioned "our dogs are fed exclusively Proplan by Purina" or "[dog's name] is fed exclusively Proplan by Purina". Are breeders getting kick backs or free food from Purina to use and promote the product just as veterinarians do for Science Diet??? Maybe breeders who use Proplan can explain how that works. I'm just curious.


----------



## nolasmom (Jul 27, 2008)

I am finding all of the posts in this thread very interesting. I have read everything I can find regarding the best food to give your dog. I want to give my dog the best and I know everyone else does. I, too, remember the longevity of my dogs that were fed Gravy Train and Gainesburgers and Purina along with spaghetti and meat sauce, hamburger steak and gravy, bacon and eggs. I also remember letting my dogs lick the leftovers off of the plates before putting them in the dishwasher. They lived long (16+) and healthy lives. I have no idea where to get Canidae where I live so I guess I will just use ProPlan or Nutro, which I heard on another website, was good. And maybe add a little spaghetti and meat sauce, hamburger steak and gravy and bacon and eggs


----------



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

nolasmom said:


> I am finding all of the posts in this thread very interesting. I have read everything I can find regarding the best food to give your dog. I want to give my dog the best and I know everyone else does. I, too, remember the longevity of my dogs that were fed Gravy Train and Gainesburgers and Purina along with spaghetti and meat sauce, hamburger steak and gravy, bacon and eggs. I also remember letting my dogs lick the leftovers off of the plates before putting them in the dishwasher. They lived long (16+) and healthy lives. I have no idea where to get Canidae where I live so I guess I will just use ProPlan or Nutro, which I heard on another website, was good. And maybe add a little spaghetti and meat sauce, hamburger steak and gravy and bacon and eggs


Well when you put on the chow gives us all a call, I'd come right over for the hamburger, steak and gravy, and bacon and eggs myself!

If you would like to try Canidae you can plug in your zip code in this webpage and see if you find any place close to you that sells it.

http://www.canidae.com/company/storelocator.html


----------



## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

Goldilocks said:


> I'm not looking to start trouble but I've noticed on a few breeders websites (Goldens and otherwise) that it is mentioned "our dogs are fed exclusively Proplan by Purina" or "[dog's name] is fed exclusively Proplan by Purina". Are breeders getting kick backs or free food from Purina to use and promote the product just as veterinarians do for Science Diet??? Maybe breeders who use Proplan can explain how that works. I'm just curious.


I agree & have noticed the same thing!! Anyone know about this?? Or can explain it??

Thanks for all the replies!! Yall are AWESOME!! :]


----------



## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Goldilocks said:


> I'm not looking to start trouble but I've noticed on a few breeders websites (Goldens and otherwise) that it is mentioned "our dogs are fed exclusively Proplan by Purina" or "[dog's name] is fed exclusively Proplan by Purina". Are breeders getting kick backs or free food from Purina to use and promote the product just as veterinarians do for Science Diet??? Maybe breeders who use Proplan can explain how that works. I'm just curious.


I don't know how "it" works, I don't breed. But I am sure most all dog food companies have breeder programs. I have no idea what that is except if I was Purina I would intice breeders to use their product and be included in Puppy kits that went to new puppy owners.

I doubt that a breeder who mentions Pro-Plan on this or another forum is getting a kick-back. That isn't realistic.


----------



## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

Lucky's mom said:


> I doubt that a breeder who mentions Pro-Plan on this or another forum is getting a kick-back. That isn't realistic.


I did not mean that this forum or any other forum was meant as an "advertisement" for various foods and breeders were receiving kickbacks for talking about the food on line. 

What I mean is if you start researching various dog breeders, occasionally you come across different websites that are owned by the breeder explaining their kennel, introducing their dogs, etc. Quite a few breeders on their own personal websites have a Proplan logo and it says "We feed our dogs exclusively ProPlan by Purina" or "Champion {dog's name} is fed exclusively ProPlan by Purina". There is a breeder local to me here who has both these quotes on her website. So my question was - is Proplan sponsoring the dog or the kennel by providing food for free or at greatly reduced cost in exchange for advertising at conformation shows, on the breeder's own personal kennel website, etc. Feeding numerous dogs in a kennel can be costly so I see opportunity here for both the breeder and Purina to benefit from such an arrangement.


----------



## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> my ProPlan fed dogs are healthier and live longer than theirs who are fed either raw or any number of the currently popular "holistic/natural" products


I have to disagree Laura. My experience with "holistic" foods has been good all around. 

Other than what I consider "healthy" ingredients (meaning the lack of non-healthy ones, in some cases), the advantages are multi-fold. I feed less, have fewer Vet visits, smaller and firmer stools, and great joints/coat/skin. 

I also don't have any issues with allergies. Which I did have serious issues with prior to switching away from wheat, corn and soy. No ear infections, no digestive issues, no skin issues (except Molly who ends up with staph once a year because she stays wet all summer long, if she can. Not caused by allergy......just wetness).

Right now I have a 12.8 yr old Golden, an 11.7 year old Golden, a 10 year old Newf and all are doing great. High levels of energy for their ages, great coats, no illnesses.

I admit I'd be surprised (happy, but surprised) if any lived to be 17 like Carrie did.....but IMO, her longevity was genetically pre-disposed, not completely environmental. She DID live on a farm-type setting (no real farm...just lots of land in the country) her whole life.....as do all of ours.....so maybe some of the environmental issues are removed. We use no weed killer, no insect killer, have no carpets (a huge source of allergens and carcinogens), and I only innoculate every three years, or as needed. etc. Giving "holistic" food can't hurt .... as food is also, IMO, part of the "environment".

I get a big break from Canidae, price wise, which did impact my choice of foods. I'm sure I could get the same from Purina, and many other foods out there, if I wanted to pursue it. We buy in VOLUME. :lol: 

I agree that any food is good as long as it works for your dog. "Holistic" works best for ours....all of ours. Food with wheat, specifically didn't work well....in fact, it was a disaster. Corn seems to be fine here. Our dogs eat corn all the time (leftovers). No problem. And soy......well.......never tried it much.

Generally you'll know if it isn't working. Specific clues are ear infections, scratching, bad coats, digestive issues. And usually a combination of all of them. If all is well.......my opinion is to leave well enough alone!


----------



## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Goldilocks said:


> I did not mean that this forum or any other forum was meant as an "advertisement" for various foods and breeders were receiving kickbacks for talking about the food on line.
> 
> What I mean is if you start researching various dog breeders, occasionally you come across different websites that are owned by the breeder explaining their kennel, introducing their dogs, etc. Quite a few breeders on their own personal websites have a Proplan logo and it says "We feed our dogs exclusively ProPlan by Purina" or "Champion {dog's name} is fed exclusively ProPlan by Purina". There is a breeder local to me here who has both these quotes on her website. So my question was - is Proplan sponsoring the dog or the kennel by providing food for free or at greatly reduced cost in exchange for advertising at conformation shows, on the breeder's own personal kennel website, etc. Feeding numerous dogs in a kennel can be costly so I see opportunity here for both the breeder and Purina to benefit from such an arrangement.


Oh, ok...well I don't know about that. I'm not against mutually beneficial relationships. It happens in all venues, holistic and commercial. 

I personally believe that if a breeder capitalized on what Purina or any dog food company offered, they would do so because they believed in the product. Winning in the ring or field is what its all about for them.


----------



## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Goldilocks said:


> ... Quite a few breeders on their own personal websites have a Proplan logo and it says "We feed our dogs exclusively ProPlan by Purina" or "Champion {dog's name} is fed exclusively ProPlan by Purina". There is a breeder local to me here who has both these quotes on her website...


*IT'S ALL PART OF PURINA'S BONUS POINTS/REWARD PROGRAM*
QUOTED FROM PURINA PRO CLUB ( CANADIAN LINK ) 


" You can also earn Pro Points by demonstrating your support for the Purina Pro Club and Purina brand pet foods. 
Drop by the Purina booth at a show and say hello – get a Bonus Pro Point! Use a Purina logo in your advertising or on your website– Bonus Pro Points! Refer an associate dog professional to the Purina Pro Club – more Bonus Pro Points! " 
You must

" Feed and recommend Purina brand dog foods " 
http://www.purinaproclub.ca///Terms_and_Conditions.asp


----------



## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

T&T said:


> *IT'S ALL PART OF PURINA'S BONUS POINTS/REWARD PROGRAM*
> QUOTED FROM PURINA PRO CLUB ( CANADIAN LINK )
> 
> 
> ...


Very interesting. So what's the difference between this and Hills/Science Diet with the Veterinarians? 

I agree we all need to feed what we believe in and what works for our dogs. Pippa is a Cdn. Champion and was fed ProPlan by her breeder. I continued the ProPlan for about a week after I adopted her but when I took her to the vet for a check up her ears were completely infested with yeast and she had yeast over her entire body. The vet told me a food switch would help and so we went to feeding Fromm and then to Orijen. The yeast cleared up pretty quickly after being off the ProPlan. Another thing I noticed is that when she was on ProPlan she had bowel movements that were like cement - it actually seemed uncomfortable and difficult for her to pass stool. Everything turned "normal" once I got her off the ProPlan. Her stools were firm and what I consider to be normal.


----------



## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Goldilocks said:


> Very interesting. So what's the difference between this and Hills/Science Diet with the Veterinarians?


Personally I think vets are pretty unfairly demonized. I'm amazed people even use them. But that is what the Holistic companies work for so that they can sell more product. Much of the exaggerated "Science Diet-Evil Vet" corralation starts with the Holistic profit centers.

Personally when I see all the holistic books sold on the dogfoodanalysis site and the scare articles on Honest Kitchen's site....I start thinking that they must find ways to increase profits too.

The DogFoodProject Lady is making money...she's not writing articles as a service...it brings her customers from exactly the type of person most willing to do business iwth her.

So I do think we need to be careful and not make something bad that isn't.

there is nothing "wrong" with marketing your product...and referrals from satisfied customers is perfectly legit.

I like the upfront approach...rather then the conspiracy-minded articles and informaton that scare people into another product....


----------



## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

I know some agility people who are sponsored by Canidae or Nature's Variety. I guess it doesn't really bother me because it doesn't have nearly as much influence on the general public as the SD arrangement with vets does.


----------



## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Goldilocks said:


> Very interesting. So what's the difference between this and Hills/Science Diet with the Veterinarians? I agree we all need to feed what we believe in and what works for our dogs. Pippa is a Cdn. Champion and was fed ProPlan by her breeder. I continued the ProPlan for about a week after I adopted her but when I took her to the vet for a check up her ears were completely infested with yeast and she had yeast over her entire body. The vet told me a food switch would help and so we went to feeding Fromm and then to Orijen. The yeast cleared up pretty quickly after being off the ProPlan. Another thing I noticed is that when she was on ProPlan she had bowel movements that were like cement - it actually seemed uncomfortable and difficult for her to pass stool. Everything turned "normal" once I got her off the ProPlan. Her stools were firm and what I consider to be normal.


 
I LOVE Mr & Miss T's VETS BUT WHEN IT COMES TO NUTRITION I DON'T EXPECT THEM TO BE EXPERTS IN THE FIELD AS THEY ONLY COVER NUTRITION IN GENERAL FOR THE FEW MANDATORY CREDITS REQUIRED. THEY RELY MOSTLY ON INFORMATION GIVEN TO THEM BY PET FOOD SALES REPS ...
ORIJEN ? MY ENGLISH MASTIFF BREEDER FRIEND SWITCHED TO ORIJEN A FEW MONTHS AGO. SHE HAD BEEN ROTATING FORM EPH TO CANIDAE TO NATURE'S VARIETY & NOW ON ORIJEN. HAVE YOU MET HER GIANTS YET ? 
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=40974


----------



## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

lucky's Mom said:


> personally I Think Vets Are Pretty Unfairly Demonized. I'm Amazed People Even Use Them. But That Is What The Holistic Companies Work For So That They Can Sell More Product. Much Of The Exaggerated "science Diet-evil Vet" Corralation Starts With The Holistic Profit Centers.personally When I See All The Holistic Books Sold On The Dogfoodanalysis Site And The Scare Articles On Honest Kitchen's Site....i Start Thinking That They Must Find Ways To Increase Profits Too.the Dogfoodproject Lady Is Making Money...she's Not Writing Articles As A Service...it Brings Her Customers From Exactly The Type Of Person Most Willing To Do Business Iwth Her.so I Do Think We Need To Be Careful And Not Make Something Bad That Isn't.there Is Nothing "wrong" With Marketing Your Product...and Referrals From Satisfied Customers Is Perfectly Legit.
> I Like The Upfront Approach...rather Then The Conspiracy-minded Articles And Informaton That Scare People Into Another Product....


All Pet Food Companies Are In Business To Make Some Profit. 
I Think After The Recalls Consumers Started Deciphering Labels & Paying More Attention To Ingredients, Which Is A Good Thing Don't You Think ? 
And BTW I LOVE My Vets !


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Goldilocks said:


> I'm not looking to start trouble but I've noticed on a few breeders websites (Goldens and otherwise) that it is mentioned "our dogs are fed exclusively Proplan by Purina" or "[dog's name] is fed exclusively Proplan by Purina". Are breeders getting kick backs or free food from Purina to use and promote the product just as veterinarians do for Science Diet??? Maybe breeders who use Proplan can explain how that works. I'm just curious.


 
No "kick-backs". But, as with many dog food companies, they do have a "breeders club" which entails saving weight circles, and so many pounds earns ProPlan checks towards the purchase of more food, or, points which can be used to purchase other items. Truthfully, I'd use the food anyway, and often forget to save my circles.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> Quote:
> my ProPlan fed dogs are healthier and live longer than theirs who are fed either raw or any number of the currently popular "holistic/natural" products
> I have to disagree Laura. My experience with "holistic" foods has been good all around.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

T&T said:


> All Pet Food Companies Are In Business To Make Some Profit.
> I Think After The Recalls Consumers Started Deciphering Labels & Paying More Attention To Ingredients, Which Is A Good Thing Don't You Think ?
> And BTW I LOVE My Vets !


Its fine to pay attention to labels. Getting information on the truth behind the labels takes a lot of work...

I'm glad you love your vet...we gotta right? I like mine too, though he rolls his eyes at me alot. 

My main thing is that I don't know much about these canine nutrionists that know more then my vet. I don't know what research they are looking at and what college they attended. If they look down on commercial companies or dog research that might mean they are totally avoiding current research....


----------



## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

T&T...I just looked at your Giant friends.....and they're beautiful. 

One thing that's really important for owners of Giant Breeds to "grasp" is the feeding regimen. You've got to admit that it IS different, from day 1, than feeding a dog the size and structure of a Golden.

ALL GB owners that I've come across in the past 4 years, in my experience, are almost fanatical about their dog's growth and health. I've never met so many people who do so much research and are so obsessed with their dog's "proper" nutritional requirements, as I have since I got involved with Newfs.

I've learned a great deal from GB owners since I got my first, Mira. If there's any new test, research, procedure, surgery, food, supplement, nutritional information, prevalence of injury, illness, etc., it's posted on the myriad of GB dog lists within hours after it's published/made public. I've never seen anything like it. 

Information speeds around the web at a lightening pace. And GB owners discuss, advise, share their experiences, willingly and knowledgeably....the good, the bad, and the ugly. Food is a major concern.....and new research, or anecdotal information is seriously analyzed and considered.

I believe that's because even though our GB's are big and strong....they're also fragile, health wise. When they have something go wrong, it can quickly turn into a train wreck, so everything possible is done by their owners to keep the GB dogs in optimum health. Unfortunately GB's are much more likely to become train wrecks than Goldens are...or that's been my experience.

Goldens are a pretty sturdy breed, all in all. Yes there are problems.....yes, the people here care just as much and will do everything possible to address those problems....but I honestly don't think, that unless they've owned a GB dog, anybody understands how BAD things can get from something as simple as feeding the wrong food from the very first bite.

So....for those here who think people like T&T and I are "over the top" when it comes to opinions about proper feeding/nutritional requirements for our dogs.......just remember....we own Giant Breed dogs. It comes with the territory! :lol:

I know my Goldens get a LOT of things I never would have thought of if I didn't own Newfs. Heck....I wouldn't have even known about them. But, I've found that even though those things aren't quite as critical as they are with Newfs, they've benefited from them. 

I have rarely achy Golden oldies who run like they did when they were 5 years old. That alone is worth a lot to me - and to them.


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I'll have to ask my niece what she feed her two English Mastiffs. The Vet was impressed by the ages they lived to. Cancer took both of their lives. One had surgery to remove the same type of tumor the other had. Christine said the one operated on went down too fast after the surgery, so she didn't have the tumors removed on Elsie. Elsie lived was 13 I believe. Maybe older.


----------



## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

I was just on the Ontario Veterinary College website and on the homepage in big bold letters, "Hill's commits $12 Million to OVC". Thought it was very apropos for this thread.


----------



## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

Goldilocks said:


> I was just on the Ontario Veterinary College website and on the homepage in big bold letters, "Hill's commits $12 Million to OVC". Thought it was very apropos for this thread.


Yes, it is appropriate for this thread.  I have definitely came to the conclusion that my co-worker gets some profit from Hill's. I'm just glad I didn't fall into her trap.


----------



## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

I personally don't believe at all that people who don't go with the natural or popular "high quality foods" are doing HARM to their dogs! 
What I do believe is that as long as I am able to I am going to do my own research and go with the highest quality product I can find. Why would I want to feed them anything less. I equate it (and it's not necessarily accurate) to feeding my "kids" fast food or cooking them chicken and veggies at home.
I took my foster to the vet today - she came with hair falling out in chunks and raw skin (some bleeding and scabbed) everywhere. This was the rescue's vet and the first thing he said was 'this dog has had horrible nutrition, she was probably fed the grocery store stuff in bulk" I told him I fed Canidae and he is confident she will look like a different dog in a month, this makes me feel better about my choices and lets me know there are some vets despite their Science Diet displays, are up on the importance of nutrition.


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

My Vet has never promoted SD. In fact, they don't like having to keep it in the office because it takes up space!


----------



## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

My vet doesn't either...but he's definately a commercial food guy. I have seen science diet on shelves in some of the vets I've called on during work, but not the regular stuff...the percriptions formulas.


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Lucky's mom said:


> My vet doesn't either...but he's definately a commercial food guy. I have seen science diet on shelves in some of the vets I've called on during work, but not the regular stuff...the percriptions formulas.


That's what they have, too. I had to buy the UTI formula for my cats. I now use the Purina UTI formula. It's cheaper I believe, available at Walmart, and it works!  Although, he wasn't a big fan of Purina. I don't think he's a big fan of the commercial (what some people would consider low quality) foods. He has a dog and I never asked him what he feeds.

I should as the female Vet what she feeds. She has a Golden!


----------



## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Goldilocks said:


> I was just on the Ontario Veterinary College website and on the homepage in big bold letters, "Hill's commits $12 Million to OVC". Thought it was very apropos for this thread.


*"Once in practice, vets who sell Science Diet and other premium foods directly from their offices pocket profits of as much as 40%"* 

*WALLSTREET JOURNAL NOV '97*
http://www.simplyschnauzer.net/hills.html


----------



## guccigucci (Mar 3, 2009)

I trust Innova, plus, there were many problems with Hills for diarrhea and stuff like that, anyway my dog has been on innova since she was 3 months. Its great!!


----------

