# Question for horse people ??



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

We are new to the world of horses. My kids are currently in beginners lessons and we are trying learn what we can about the horse world. We have a barn and pasture in our backyard waiting for the horse or horses of their dreams.

This weekend we went to our first horse show as spectators. It was just a very local show and very casual. We had a lot of fun watching, except in two instances we noticed that riders hitting their horses.

In one instance, the young girl on the horse had no control of the horse, it was obvious that the horse did not want to be there, and wanted to throw her off.

The other instance was a boy who looked too big for the horse, could not get the horse around the barrels correctly and fast enough.

Is this common practice to hit the horses? I have heard the instructors tell other kids with their own horses to make sure the horse knows who is boss, and not to let them get away with anything. Is that what they mean to do? Do the horses feel the hitting the same way a smaller animal does, or does it not hurt them?

The horses my kids are on are bomb proof, lesson horses, so the horses are well behaved. I am going to ask the instructors tonight, but I am just afraid of what the answer may be.


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I believe the riders were taking their frustrations out on the horses. A show is high energy for many horses and riders and can cause some acting out by both.

A crop can be used for direction and correction, but not abusively. I sometimes carry a riding crop (mine has a rubber flapper on the end) and will pop my horse if he is getting ill behaved. It doesn't hurt - my sister used to love to smack me with one.

the most important thing is to never hit a horse out of anger or frustration. It accomplishes nothing and just makes the situation worse IMO.

I will "go after" a horse with all seriousness if they bite, strike or kick since I consider that a cardinal sin. However, it is mainly for show and bluster. I would never want to even raise a welt much less cause a greater injury

Keep watching and learning and I hope you and your family have a great time learning about horses. They are wonderful animals and can be quite affectionate too.


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

Unfortunately not all people are honest. Please be very careful when you do buy a horse. People will sell you one that is absolutely not suitable for your family and smile all the way to the bank. 

My arab gelding is 22. On many days an absolute beginner could and has gone riding up the mountain with me and only have to manage to not fall off. On other days and in other circumstances, he will try pretty hard to throw me off. Sometimes because he doesn't want to do something (canter) and sometimes just because he feels good. 

Find someone good and honest to help you out and educate you.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

coppers-mom said:


> Unfortunately not all people are honest. Please be very careful when you do buy a horse. People will sell you one that is absolutely not suitable for your family and smile all the way to the bank.
> 
> My arab gelding is 22. On many days an absolute beginner could and has gone riding up the mountain with me and only have to manage to not fall off. On other days and in other circumstances, he will try pretty hard to throw me off. Sometimes because he doesn't want to do something (canter) and sometimes just because he feels good.
> 
> Find someone good and honest to help you out and educate you.


 
Thanks! We are trying not to rush into this, so hopefully when the time comes, then I can have an educated person help us. Getting to be familiar with some of the horses at the stable - the ones that are boarded there, I have seen some of them have their "bad days" and "good days". 

At this point they all look good to me on their "good days".


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

There's a lot of dirty, dishonest people in the horse world from trainers to coaches to riders to vets. 

How were these kids "hitting" the horses? If a horse I was riding threw in a dirty stop at a jump, he'd get a whack with the crop on his haunches, never hard enough to leave a welt. If a horse struck out at me on the ground, he'd get a reprimand again - depending on the severity of it.

In showjumpers/hunters, there's a "three whacks and you're out" because of spoiled riders beating their horses inappropriately. If it's being done out of anger - it's inappropriate and should be reported to the horse show steward. If it's done in front of the saddle or around the head area - it is definitely inappropriate and has become abuse. Again, I'd report it to the steward - I have many times over the years reported people who'd take their horses out back and beat them for a poor performance in the ring, people polling their horses out of sight, etc. I wasn't too popular but it's the horse's safety.

After one horse show round where my then-hunter galloped sideways and refused all the jumps because the ring was located next to a road and the cars were scaring him, I had three trainers come up to me and tell me that if that was their student's horse, he'd be going without water for the next 3 days after pulling something like that. Yeah, that'd teach him...

Check out http://fuglyblog.com/ it's a website that deals with slaughter but there are a lot of good articles (that you can search for) on how to look for a good trainer, what is/isn't allowed at horse shows, etc. It's blunt and no-nonsense which you rarely find in the horseworld. The gal who writes it isn't scared of pissing people off or naming names - some of the stuff she's posted about is absolutely despicable. It's a great read for beginner people who aren't sure.

People do use crops appropriately in the horse world. I trained/coached for 13 years and would never get on a horse without spurs and a crop. I'd rather have the aids and not need them, then need them and not have them. 

Just for fun - here's a pic of my showjumper (the same horse in the above anecdote). He was a hard case mentally to get a handle on but when he was having a good day (mentally), a novice could ride him. It was our first 3'6 class so my position wasn't great...I always rode him with spurs and a crop since he loved to stop dead, drop his shoulder and shoot backwards if he decided something (bird, tree, trailer, person) was "Scary".


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I dated someone who owned horses and found myself at many rodeos. J had one horse that was an absolute dream and the calf roping horse (Wilbur, Bur for short), well, let us just say he and I had a rocky relationship! I would never have hit him. He used to test me to the limit. One day I was in a small ring and he wouldn't stop no matter how far back I pulled on the reins until he was good and ready...LOL I hope you can find someone honest and find a horse like Babe. She was awesome...Bur and I did love each other, but we did best when I wasn't riding him alone...


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

I had an Arab for 29 years. He was wonderful with people but needed an experienced rider. Some people have wanted Arabs because they are beautiful but they can be a handfull. I would suggest finding out if you can lease a horse. That way you can see if this is really what you want to do. You will find out about riding and grooming but there is also cleaning stalls, making sure your horse gets exercised daily, proper nutrition, vet bills, working with them in the rain, mud, dust, hot weather, and snow. If you still love doing all this then you know it is time to buy. Horses are wonderful companions and a wonderful way to spend your days. I miss my horse deep in my heart daily. Good luck


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

My horse (Arab) was a stallion for the first 13 years of his life. He has pulled every trick in the book from bucking, to trying to bite, to laying down, to throwing his head in the head while your riding. Believe me he was/sometimes is rotten. He liked to nip to the farrier and is just a trouble maker. He has often got a good smack on the neck or a crop on the butt. Like another poster said never to make a welt or mark or anything like that but he weighs half a ton (literally) and can be downright dangerous if not corrected or allowed to push it. And no I don't believe horses and dogs have the same pain tolerances. There is a huge difference between a rein or crop on the butt or shoulder and spurring through their sides.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Ash said:


> My horse (Arab) was a stallion for the first 13 years of his life. He has pulled every trick in the book from bucking, to trying to bite, to laying down, to throwing his head in the head while your riding. Believe me he was/sometimes is rotten. He liked to nip to the farrier and is just a trouble maker. He has often got a good smack on the neck or a crop on the butt. Like another poster said never to make a welt or mark or anything like that but he weighs half a ton (literally) and can be downright dangerous if not corrected or allowed to push it. And no I don't believe horses and dogs have the same pain tolerances. There is a huge difference between a rein or crop on the butt or shoulder and spurring through their sides.


 
I guess that was more of what I was thinking. The two kids I saw hit their horses while they riding in the ring, and losing control of their horses. They were hitting with their hands, so I really did not think that the horses really felt it, but my husband was very upset about it. 

But to tell you the truth, both of these riders also had "attitudes" that the other riders did not have. The horses were probably feeding on that. ( One of the rider's father had to keep telling her to get off her cell phone, and she would not listen. )


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Ranger and Ashleigh - thanks for sharing your pictures. Your horses are beautiful.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Thank you! I love my guy to death - unfortunately, he injured himself at 12 yrs of age, just when he was entering his prime and had to be retired. Knowing his mental issues and obviously because I love him, I never sold him on or retired him out of sight. He lives 45 min away in a big field with his best friend and I'm keeping him until he leaves this Earth. Too many people discard their horses when they're no longer "useful" and don't know where they end up. Unfortunately, that means they usually get sold on to slaughter houses or starve. I couldn't sleep at night if I didn't know where my guy was or what had happened to him.

Regarding the kids using their hands to hit their horses - again, it depends on the attitude/reasoning behind it. Out of anger or frustration? I don't care if it's not hurting the horse, there's no need for that. I myself have whacked my horse with my hand (and I know it hurts me more than it hurts him) but it's a reminder to HIM that he needs to watch his manners. Were they hitting the horse with their hands while in the saddle? There's no reason for that, unless they were swatting flies or mosquitoes away.

Ashleigh - your stallion is gorgeous! Totally agree on the pushiness becoming dangerous. We used to think my guy wasn't fully castrated as he acted very studly a lot of the time and loooved the mares. Always had to walk him with a chain too.

I used to have a little arab school pony who was so funny. She's what we called "lazy-hot". She'd shuffle her hooves around barely moving in lessons while the kids would frantically try to get her to go faster (or keep moving). Then once the more advanced kids (who could actually get her to go) would get on, she'd lift her tail and start booking it around the ring. Such a funny little mare.


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## GoldenDreams (Dec 17, 2009)

There are a lot of shady trainers out there and some odd theories to riding. It's good to get exposed to shows and others people's style of riding before you get wrapped up in one trainer for years. When you're brand new, you don't know the difference between correct and incorrect, especially if you've only seen one thing.

As far as horses, they have much thicker skin than we do. Hitting a horse out of anger is not correct. Sometimes you need to get firm with them, but not in a mean way. They are much bigger than us and some will try to walk all over you if not trained correctly, exposed to different things, etc (sound familiar GRF friends?!)

I have seen riders/trainers use their whips and spurs incorrectly were there were welts and blood. It's hard to see and some people are so cruel. In my opinion, I see far to many riders using their spurs or whip as a first aid, nagging the horse every stride. Sometimes their leg is just too unsteady and for some people it's how they make their horse go forward. Nagging only desensitizes the horse and makes him unresponsive and "behind the leg." If the horse is unresponsive to a leg aid, I then use my spurs to tap and "confirm" or "strengthen" my aid.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Ah I love dressage! My guy is actually bred from dressage lines (Wanroij) and I had a few people try get me to sell him as a dressage horse when younger. His calling was showjumping though, but we did many years with dressage added to our flatwork (which is why we excelled in medal classes when they called for extended trot!) My old trainer eventually married Paul Belasik...

Gorgeous, gorgeous horse!! Simply stunning!


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Ah whips and spurs. They are a very useful tool and a very miss used one too. I always ride in spurs, a very blunt rounded end spur, and when I jump I always carry a bat (crop). There is a place for training and sometimes punishment. Shows usually are not it. Yes the "three strikes your out" is a true statement. However at schooling shows usually there are no rules and no consequences. The more structured the show the better behaved the participants...usually

That being said I used to work for a Grand Prix show jumper rider, who would go to the grounds of a show early in the AM or late at night to "tune on his horses". He used all sorts of illegal equipment. I hated being part of that. I only worked for him for a few weeks. The things I saw. He was actually part of the big horse killing scandal, did not surprise me at all. 

I am short 5'2" person with all my height from the hip up. My legs are lucky to pass my saddle. I need the spur back up to get the point across if need be. My horse is whip sensitive. If I move it he goes nuts. I have to carry it to spank him if he stops (rarely he does) but usually it is just a decoration in my hand. 

Watch the good trainers. Their students should behave properly. Also when shopping for a horse, find a trainer you trust to help you. I have been in this industry too long and seen MANY a unsuspecting person get suckered into a "deal". You need someone to act on your behalf, to find the right mount for your child. The money spent on the better horse and commission to a trainer is well worth it. 

And don't take it home until you know what you are doing. I sold a horse and the trainer let the owners take it home. It died, it was hit by a car because they did not know what they were doing. A tragic ending that could have been avoided for all parties. 

Ann


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## GoldenDreams (Dec 17, 2009)

Ranger your horse sounds like one I would like to have!  I'd love to see a pic!

The first chestnut is out of Weltmeyer. My client and I went to Germany to find him last year. He is so talented! The last chestnut is my Grand Prix gelding by Vivaldi (doing Prix St. George in that picture at the NAYRC trials) and the new pic of him below from about a year ago.


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## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

Wow, you guys! Those are some beautiful horses!!!!

We just have plain ole good ole quarter horses. Mine - Buddy - is about 10 and Luke - Dee's - is about 12-13. Mine actually is a colorless paint and Dee's is some warm blooded something or other but basically quarter horses if you ask them. :curtain:

We do trail rides and mess around in the arena. Doing a little reigning and western riding. No showing whatsoever. Dee grew up on horses in the rodeo circuit & rode barebacks, etc. His dad - the original horse whisperer in my opinion - always told the boys that you work with and discipline your horse at home so you don't have to do it in public. Also, they could rodeo on the weekends for 3 weeks but that 4th week they took them on trail rides only and just enjoyed them.

The thing to remember about horses is that they are very tuned in to their person. If their person is all fritzed out about something or distracted, they will be as well. It is transmitted. There is nothing like the relationship between a rider and horse and it's a partnership. The way you sit a saddle tells the horse tons. 

I agree that you need to be very careful and diligent in finding the exact right horse for your kids. We had a horrible 4-H accident where a young girl lost her life from being thrown. I don't want to scare you, but your talking of 1500 - 2000 pounds of pure muscle/power for an average horse. That is nothing to mess with.

All that said, if it's a good match - endless fun and relationship for your kids and yourself. Nothing else like it unless you add a golden into the mix.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks goldendreams! He's definitely my "heart horse". We went through a lot together; to be honest, I was scared of him for the first year until I learned how to deal with him. He wasn't mean at all, just big and knew he was stronger than everyone else. Such a big personality that even his first owners (who bred him) were scared...when he was a foal! He learned at a young age he could bolt on the ground when being led. But under saddle, he was amazing. Responsive, athletic and always gave his whole heart. He had such a powerful, controlled (most of the time!) look to hjim that people would stop what they were doing and watch him enter the ring. Of course, sometimes that was also due to the antics he pulled! He's been retired for 3 years but most people in the area still remember him...Showjumping was his thing, even though he spent more years in the hunter ring. I'll try to find a few good pics.

Here we go - this is On the Verge! (The pink jump was our first time in 3'6 - I was scared and made a lot of mistakes...he saved my butt! I had people coming up to me telling me what a great horse I had. The other jumping pic is our first time jumping 4' in warm-up).


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## AmandaSmelser (Mar 22, 2010)

I would LOVE to have horse property!! A big mistake my parents made was letting me talk them into buying a horse for me when I was 12. I had no idea what I was doing and they didn't either. He was at a boarding facility, so not the ideal situation. He ended up kicking my best friend and broke her collar bone. Luckily, her parents were horse lovers and didn't sue us. The horse was sold and long gone before I learned so much more about horsemanship through lessons and experiencing other people's horses. 

There are multiple horse-rescue groups out there! Maybe a rescue isn't good for your first horse because of extra challenges (especially fear/flight issues), but if you are only planning to make it a fun family horse, then a great bloodline isn't necessary. Just like Goldens!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I had an Arab that was 5 when he was gelded. Up until that point, he had never been in a pasture. Just the indoor ring and his stall. He was ring sour. He went over backwards one day and broke the back of his rider, and that's how we ended up buying him. We were looking for a competitive trail riding horse. He was the perfect horse for that!

The day we brought him home, I took him around the entire pasture showing him the fence. Then I turned him loose. He ran for 30 minutes straight. He had never had that chance before. 

He was an incredible competitive trail horse. We took a LOT of blue ribbons all because of him. I was just along for the ride. He had also been trained in dressage, but I never pursued that with him. He did try to kill me once or twice, and almost succeeded at least once! I don't think he meant to, but sometimes he would just grab the bit and run. LOL

I do remember whacking him for that. But that was about the only time I did. But sheesh, he was trying to kill me!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Horses and riders are just majestic IMHO! How lucky and beautiful all of your horses are.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

There are a lot of girls that show horses with their attitude. Their parents buy them push-button horses, fancy suits and the best trainer money can buy to win. I knew a girl (teen) like that. Her parents bought her a $30000 hunter pleasure mare for Arab shows and Nationals. The first year she won it all. The next year she came back and her horse had figured her out. She was picking up the wrong leads, transitions were sloppy, head carriage was gone etc. Her trainer was outside the ring telling her wrong lead, change it, wrong lead. She rode that mare around proud as punch not knowing she was on the wrong and lead and then threw a hissy fit when she did not win. The rider in that class that went around the ring pulling back to a trot and trying to catch that lope in the correct ring was 2nd in that large class. She knew it was wrong and tried to fix it. The most important thing is that children and young riders are taught the fundamentals. They will be much better riders for it in the long ring. Too many people just want to win. Do watch that when purchasing a horse you insist on the vet check and try the horse out at least a few times before making a choice. A lot of horse trainers/breeders don't have the same ethics a good dog breeder does. They will bute a horse you intend to but for your kids (which they know) and sell it you without blinking twice. If you are not prepared to spend a decent dollar you are probably best to continue to use a lesson horse. Very rarely will you find a good horse with miles for cheap. Best of luck


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Great advice throughout this thread- and beautiful horses too. I grew up showing Morgans, was a working student at Michael Poulin's American School Of Dressage, and ran a horseback riding program in the summers for 15 years. My horse Charleston is an old beauty at age 27. 

Ideally, a riding crop/ whip gives cues, and if you ride balance seat/English etc, it's nice if you can maintain your nice flexible connection with your horses mouth by using it on his shoulder instead of pulling your hands way out of position. Usually, a riding crop/dressage whip is carried in the rider's inside hand to support the horse bending around the leg. At times, like teaching a young horse canter leads, you might change to the outside hand. By all this, I mean to say the whip should communicate rather than punish. So much depends on the horse, and how much he listens to the rider's leg and seat. I don't know anything about Western style riding though.

I agree with Ash that a horse is too big to have walking all over humans. Sometimes, slipping the leadline chain over the nose is crucial for safety. 

It's imperative to find a very experienced pro to help you choose horses for your kids. Every trick in the book is pulled from giving horses medicine to conceal lameness to falsifying ages. Just like with dogs, you can research breeds as a family, and then decide if you want to choose a reputable breeder or maybe choose a loved horse whose owner is heading off to college etc. Beware of horse brokers. There's an old saying about not pairing a green young horse with kids, but my first Morgan was 3 years old and I was 10- love at first sight? Yes. How many times did I fall off? Maybe 350??

Maybe you could lease a horse that is in a boarding stables near you for a little less pressure than having horses at home right away?


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Make sure you vet out any horse you're intending to buy; a $400 horse's vet bills are just as expensive as a $40000 horse's vet bills. Make sure when you do the vet check you use your own vet - not the seller's. Be sure to run blood tests, too. Like Ashleigh said, lots of trainers will dope up a horse so they appear calm and placid...until you get them home and the drugs wear off.

Sometimes you can find an older "been-there, done-that" horse with lots of miles that's not too expensive but they'll probably have a few soundness issues. That's not the end of the world, as long it can be managed. I found a great 15 yr old horse that had been shown for years (up to 3'3) that was the sanest, most bomb-proof horse I'd seen. He had to get his hocks injected twice a year to stay sound and couldn't jump higher than 2'6 without starting to hurt himself. He was a bargain at $6000 and the rider had him for 3 years before she outgrew him and needed something scopier.

Try to look for an older horse that's been around for your first horse. Get the vet's opinion on whether the horse can be kept serviceably sound with a little effort on your part (MSM, glucosamine in feed, legend/adequan injections, etc) and that the work won't be too strenuous. Most horses are more than happy to carry young riders around the ring at that age and give confidence to green riders. I'd love to have my guy do that, but his soundness gets worse and is debilitating if he's ridden too much - unfortunately, he still thinks he's a 4' jumper and doesn't understand why I'm only letting him walk/trot around the ring!


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## GoldenDreams (Dec 17, 2009)

Ranger, gorgeous horse! Thanks for sharing!!

IMO, it is best if you are inexperienced to use as many years in lessons on lesson horses as possible to get to know the "horse world," then you can move on to the lease horse, and then eventually buy your own. It's a very complicated world and not so nice at times, and unfortunately if you make a mistake in the horse you purchase, it could cost you your child's safety or your finances.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

GoldenDreams is spot on - spend time on the lesson horses until the rider skills are developed. Usually by that time, you also know what kind of horse you want; forward, sluggish, good ground manners, etc. and you'll have your eyes opened a bit...the horse world unfortunately is pretty shady.

Um...here are more pics of my horse just because I love him! I was lucky enough that my first horse was scopey enough to learn with me through the years so I didn't have to make the decision to sell him to move up divisions. We went from the 2' baby green hunters to the Open hunters then to the medals and 4' jumpers. Here we are waiting at a ring, and warming up in the early morning sunshine (my favourite part of the show day)!


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

I know nothing about horses. I wanted to ride as a child but I was badly allergic to horse hair which I have now grown out of. 

After reading this I am kind of glad I didn't start! Are there any honest horse people? Every other post is a warning about lies to make money and cruelty to win.


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## ILoveMyGolden (Oct 19, 2006)

Great advice given and I am beaming to know there are other horse people on here!

I was a lesson kid for yearrrrssss. Looking back, some barns/coaches were better than others, but as someone with a family who wouldn't be able to afford a horse I became a decent rider and saw a lot of free riding!

Don't rush into horses in the backyard, really get a feel for the horse world. Often the right horse(s) will fall into your lap with your involvement, and I know horse shopping is not always fun (sometimes those shady folk lurk!)

If you were at a local, lower level show, odds are on those two shouldn't have been holding sticks, let alone using them -it's a shame those two set an image for the day. Why they were sticking their horses was likely their fault anyways.

I worked for a former Canadian olympic rider in Florida one winter and saw just about everything at the high end of the sport there....I preferred my way to do it. I kept my guy at a small private barn, never did much showing and just had fun with it.

He passed away -colic June 1, 2009.

His name was Merlin, though reg'd/race name was Soaring Fantasy, he was an OTTB, raced about 75 times? Low end claimer....only won like $52 000 lifetime I got him at 12 years old after 5 ownership changes on his papers after the track. Because others shared photos, I had to have a little show and tell, I miss him like crazy.









No helmet, I know....bad:


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

I need to post pictures of my very best friend. These were taken a month before I lost him. He was 2 months shy of 31 years. I love him with all my heart.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Aw, what gorgeous horses. You wouldn't know the grey was almost 31 yr old...he looks so much younger in those pics! 

Love seeing all the horse photos!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I love the picture of the bay horse being petted while lying down. I used to jump my horse with no helmet too, and also sit in his stall and do my math homework until I heard the trainer's truck coming down the stable road. Those were the days. . . I miss riding.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Thanks everybody for sharing all your stories and pictures. We will try to do lesson horses as long as possible. I am hoping the when the time is right, the right horse finds us. The stable we are at has over 70 boarders, so maybe as time goes by, we will get to know the people and the horses there - and the right horse will find us.

I am learning SO much - and I am not even the one taking the lessons!

I have also seen how the history of the horse really takes a toll on them.

There is one horse there about early 20's who is retired from riding. He was a cattle horse and he is SOO old. Another that is 36, still is ridden everyday, and looks so much younger, because he has been stabled and babied.


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