# English Cream Golden Retriever



## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

MicheleKC87 said:


> I have never heard of the English Cream Golden Retriever before, but I found a web-site for a breeder of these beautiful dogs in Atlanta, Georgia. This is pretty close (about six hours) from Mobile. It says on the web-site that English Creams are healthier dogs than the American Golden Retriever. Does anyone here have an English Cream? What are they like?
> 
> About Us - Galaxy Goldens - Atlanta Golden Retriever Breeders of Stunning English Creams


It is a totally untrue and false. They are NOT healthier. There is no such thing as English Cremes either...they are all goldens. English cream is a marketing ploy that less than reputable breeders use. 

A quick search will show you everything you need to know about "english creams". It is a very hot topic. 

Check out this link...
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...actly-english-golden-retriever-bev-brown.html


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

Here is another good link...

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...n/88534-english-vs-american-type-goldens.html


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## MicheleKC87 (Feb 3, 2011)

nixietink said:


> It is a totally untrue and false. They are NOT healthier. There is no such thing as English Cremes either...they are all goldens. English cream is a marketing ploy that less than reputable breeders use.
> 
> A quick search will show you everything you need to know about "english creams". It is a very hot topic.
> 
> ...


Thank you sooooo much. I certainly don't want to make a mistake. Especially when they are like 3 times more expensive than the American Golden.


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## lovemydoggiesx2 (Sep 5, 2010)

An Eglish Cream Golden (agree that is is a marketing skam, and they are not healthier) is a Golden that should be from or decend from England (or europe) and the coats are usually lighter than that of the American. I have 2 (because I live in Europe). They are shorter and stouter then the Americans and tend to have a blockier head. My girl is near white and my boy is very light gold and blonde. 

Are you getting another dog Michele?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

If you are interested in that style of dog, there are reputable breeders who use those bloodlines in North America, who do clearances, work their dogs, do not make outrageous claims, and do not charge exhorbitant prices. Not everyone with English lines is a profiteering scumbag, and the ones who make those claims and use the stupid names (like creme, platinum, polar, snow-white, etc,) make us just as mad!
This is a good starting point English Goldens in North America - Litters - Breeders - Stud Dogs

Look for a strong history of clearances, health, good temperaments, and dogs proven in the show, obedience or field venues first, and then focus in on a "look" if you have a preference. The kennel you linked has been breeding dogs on prelims, and before they were two years old. Steer clear!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

sterregold said:


> If you are interested in that style of dog, there are reputable breeders who use those bloodlines in North America, who do clearances, work their dogs, do not make outrageous claims, and do not charge exhorbitant prices. Not everyone with English lines is a profiteering scumbag, and the ones who make those claims and use the stupid names (like creme, platinum, polar, snow-white, etc,) make us just as mad!
> This is a good starting point English Goldens in North America - Litters - Breeders - Stud Dogs
> 
> Look for a strong history of clearances, health, good temperaments, and dogs proven in the show, obedience or field venues first, and then focus in on a "look" if you have a preference. The kennel you linked has been breeding dogs on prelims, and before they were two years old. Steer clear!



Stated much better than I could ever do so.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> If you are interested in that style of dog, there are reputable breeders who use those bloodlines in North America, who do clearances, work their dogs, do not make outrageous claims, and do not charge exhorbitant prices.


Exactly.  

I think there are some breeders who charge a little more for european lines (1300 as opposed to 900) and that doesn't bother me as much as those who are asking for a LOT more for "white goldens" or "english creams".


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

here's a good read.....

http://wyndancegoldens.com/pdf/WhatExactlyIsAnEnglishGoldenRetriever.pdf


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

Here is a link that may be helpful in your search:

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...ity-breeders-georgia-alabama-mid-florida.html

Good luck finding the right breeder! (And definitely stay away from anyone advertising 'Creme' or 'White' goldens as they are 'healthier.' As well as selling them for a MUCH higher price.)


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## MicheleKC87 (Feb 3, 2011)

lovemydoggiesx2 said:


> An Eglish Cream Golden (agree that is is a marketing skam, and they are not healthier) is a Golden that should be from or decend from England (or europe) and the coats are usually lighter than that of the American. I have 2 (because I live in Europe). They are shorter and stouter then the Americans and tend to have a blockier head. My girl is near white and my boy is very light gold and blonde.
> 
> Are you getting another dog Michele?


I'm thinking about getting another dog. Haven't completely made my mind up yet, though.


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## MicheleKC87 (Feb 3, 2011)

sterregold said:


> If you are interested in that style of dog, there are reputable breeders who use those bloodlines in North America, who do clearances, work their dogs, do not make outrageous claims, and do not charge exhorbitant prices. Not everyone with English lines is a profiteering scumbag, and the ones who make those claims and use the stupid names (like creme, platinum, polar, snow-white, etc,) make us just as mad!
> This is a good starting point English Goldens in North America - Litters - Breeders - Stud Dogs
> 
> Look for a strong history of clearances, health, good temperaments, and dogs proven in the show, obedience or field venues first, and then focus in on a "look" if you have a preference. The kennel you linked has been breeding dogs on prelims, and before they were two years old. Steer clear!


They are beautiful, but I'm not particularly interested in getting one just for their lighter coats. I read that they are healthier, but if that's not true, I am not going to bother. I think the golden color ones, like Lucy, are just as beautiful.


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## 2goldens2love (Feb 8, 2011)

MicheleKC87 said:


> I'm thinking about getting another dog. Haven't completely made my mind up yet, though.


oh my we are thinking about a 3rd too -- the breeder just told us of a cream colored boy that someone returned to them -- he's 9 months old and what a cutie


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## MicheleKC87 (Feb 3, 2011)

Rainheart said:


> Here is a link that may be helpful in your search:
> 
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...ity-breeders-georgia-alabama-mid-florida.html
> 
> Good luck finding the right breeder! (And definitely stay away from anyone advertising 'Creme' or 'White' goldens as they are 'healthier.' As well as selling them for a MUCH higher price.)


Thank you. I definitely will stay away from breeders like that.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

MicheleKC87 said:


> They are beautiful, but I'm not particularly interested in getting one just for their lighter coats. I read that they are healthier, but if that's not true, I am not going to bother. I think the golden color ones, like Lucy, are just as beautiful.


Thing is English lines does not necessarily mean light; the style is more about nuances in the way the standard is interpreted, like the broader heads, more pronounced stops etc. There is a wide range of Gold in UK bred Goldens as well. They are all Goldens and as such are prone to similar disorders. The differences you will find are that as the breeding pools are concentrated on different dogs, some of the diseases seen more frequently will differ. For example PU is pretty much a North American phenomenon. _prcd_-PRA is for the most part found in NA field lines (the dogs Dx or carrier in Europe come from NA pedigrees), and GR-PRA1 is most found in Goldens of European lines.


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

sterregold said:


> Thing is English lines does not necessarily mean light; the style is more about nuances in the way the standard is interpreted, like the broader heads, more pronounced stops etc. There is a wide range of Gold in UK bred Goldens as well. They are all Goldens and as such are prone to similar disorders. The differences you will find are that as the breeding pools are concentrated on different dogs, some of the diseases seen more frequently will differ. For example PU is pretty much a North American phenomenon. _prcd_-PRA is for the most part found in NA field lines (the dogs Dx or carrier in Europe come from NA pedigrees), and GR-PRA1 is most found in Goldens of European lines.


+1

English vs. American simply refers to the dog's structure. You can have an English style dog that is a dark coat, you can have one that is a light coat. Same for American style dogs. My guy is the "English" variety, you can tell from his squarer head and shorter snout. However, his coat is a field coat (wavy, not long and silky like show dogs) and has nothing to do with English or American.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

ActionJackson said:


> +1
> 
> English vs. American simply refers to the dog's structure. You can have an English style dog that is a dark coat, you can have one that is a light coat. Same for American style dogs. My guy is the "English" variety, you can tell from his squarer head and shorter snout. However, his coat is a field coat (wavy, not long and silky like show dogs) and has nothing to do with English or American.


I'd say your guy has a pretty typical coat for a young English style dog, rather than an out and out field coat. My adult who has the most field in her pedigree, and the "fieldiest" coat despite her lighter colour, has a much shorter closer coat; she's on the far left in my sig pic and you can see she doesn't have a lot of feathering.


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## Topi (Dec 8, 2010)

Topper is an english Golden.


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

sterregold said:


> I'd say your guy has a pretty typical coat for a young English style dog, rather than an out and out field coat. My adult who has the most field in her pedigree, and the "fieldiest" coat despite her lighter colour, has a much shorter closer coat; she's on the far left in my sig pic and you can see she doesn't have a lot of feathering.


wow she does have a pretty short coat.....almost like a lab

that's interesting though, I had always thought that the field coats were just the shorter wavy coats....unlike the long silky coat like you see in a lot of shows. Either way, he's a handsome devil and unfortunately he knows it! :

Personally I like the english style bone structure. But thats just me


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Personally I like the english style bone structure. But thats just me


But there are American line goldens who have that bigger bone structure or the bigger heads....


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## ActionJackson (Oct 25, 2010)

Megora said:


> But there are American line goldens who have that bigger bone structure or the bigger heads....


American line goldens that come from English lines : lol

I have to admit - these breeders who tout 'English Cream Goldens' are pretty clever. I'm sure they get quite a few people to pay more for a light colored golden retriever.


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## tobysmommy (Jan 9, 2011)

Things you should Know about Golden Retrievers

I just came across this site (perhaps you all know it) and thought there were some interesting points here. Specifically, I was struck by the following:

_"I __have seen that there are many people who are now breeding "White Goldens" ( and by the way, White goldens ot the right term Its..- Cream!) These breeders figure it is easier money; more expensive puppies mean more money Period- *However, without becoming a study of the breed and knowing how to work with the recessive traits of the "white" lines it is very easy to breed dogs with health issues. * Clients that buy these puppies need to understand these facts and be prepared to accommodate their needs.__"
_
So that pretty much contradicts what some of the breeders of "English Crème" Goldens claim about the better health of these lines.

I know absolutely nothing about breeding and prefer to leave that to people who know what they're doing, but I do understand a bit about Genetics, and it makes some sense to me that white or very light colouring would be a recessive trait that may, perhaps, be indicative of other weaker traits and possible health problems. I sure hope not, because Toby is very light, but on a logical level, it seems to make sense.

I would love some input from those of you who are experienced breeders. Is it possible that the recessive genes that give the light colouring may predispose these lines to other weaknesses? 
_


 _


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

A true pure white colouration can carry with it certain health disorders, such as congenital deafness. The lighter colour in Goldens is caused by a dilution factor. Goldens are all genetically yellow coated and the activity of this dilution factor determines whether that yellow manifests as almost red down to cream. The same is at work in yellow labradors producing the range from fox red down to their paler colours. It is pretty complex stuff that is beyond my high school biology to explain completely!


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

There is nothing wrong with having a preference.... that having been said most of us with english/european lines will tell you to run as fast as you can from any breeder who markets their puppies based on color. 

my dogs are all english/european lines as you can see some have color and some don't but even my lighter dogs will eventually gain some color. I honestly hate when folks email me wanting white dogs... and to be frank I prefer some color. There are many of us that breed for the English/UK type that are not disreputable unfortunately we are in the minority and finding us can be a bit more difficult. As far as health is concern I think our dogs have some similar issues and some different issues but the fact is that they are all goldens and as such have similar health problems... like I said there is nothing wrong with having a preference but be very careful about the claims that are being made by disreputable people who are only out to line their pockets and in doing so tarnish those of us who are doing it right with our UK/European dogs


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## tobysmommy (Jan 9, 2011)

sterregold said:


> A true pure white colouration can carry with it certain health disorders, such as congenital deafness.


Just pure white (and maybe Albino)? Or cream and very light gold too? Does the dilution factor increase the likelihood of such congenital defects? Just curious...(because sometimes I could _swear_ Toby is deaf! 



Shalva said:


> As far as health is concern I think our dogs have some similar issues and some different issues but the fact is that they are all goldens and as such have similar health problems...


Would you mind sharing the different issues? I'm just wondering what they are. Your dogs are very beautiful!


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

This is a subject that can bring out the worst in the GRF because passions run high. I hope that doesn't happen to this thread. Me, I'm running for cover. But before I do, I adore my senior, now 12+, who is very light with a blocky head and extravagant feathering - qualities sometimes associated with "English creme" Goldens - but he is a poster child for health problems that have required multiple surgeries and meds, from removing his spleen to thyroxine supplements to seizure meds.

:hide:


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

tobysmommy said:


> Just pure white (and maybe Albino)? Or cream and very light gold too? Does the dilution factor increase the likelihood of such congenital defects? Just curious...(because sometimes I could _swear_ Toby is deaf!


I do not think so or European Goldens would be rife with issues, and their rates of congenital defects really are not that different from North AMerican populations. The variations are more in the expression of particular versions of disorders resulting from breeding on from specific populations of dogs (take the differing PRA forms as an example.) True albinos are more than just a white coat, but lack skin and eye pigment as well, making them photosensitive, and often suffer from vision issues as well. Here is a detailed explanation of C-locus colour genetics which some geneticists think is responsible for coat colours in the red-yellow family.


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## tobysmommy (Jan 9, 2011)

GoldensGirl said:


> This is a subject that can bring out the worst in the GRF because passions run high. I hope that doesn't happen to this thread. Me, I'm running for cover.


Eeek! I'm sorry, I had no idea this was such a contentious issue. It was just curiosity on my part. I hope I haven't opened Pandora's box here... 
I'm sorry your dog has had so many health problems.



sterregold said:


> I do not think so or European Goldens would be rife with issues, and their rates of congenital defects really are not that different from North AMerican populations.


That's reassuring. Thank you for that link as well. Very informative!


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

tobysmommy said:


> Eeek! I'm sorry, I had no idea this was such a contentious issue. It was just curiosity on my part. I hope I haven't opened Pandora's box here...


Worse things have happened. Just don't be surprised. :curtain:



tobysmommy said:


> I'm sorry your dog has had so many health problems.


Thanks! But think of it this way: he is pushing 13, in a breed that has an average life expectancy of 10-12, depending on who you ask. Expensive, yes. Worth it - you bet!

Never be afraid to ask questions on the GRF. Just remember that sometimes members get fired up and try not to take it personally when/if that happens.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

the cream color is just light gold.... nothing special about it at all.... just light gold with most of the cream colored dogs getting some color as they get older.... If you see the pictures of my dogs above you will see connie the very light colored girl in the second photo.... she is getting some color... will she ever be dark probably not but she has some color... the last boy at the bottom may end up staying a true cream I am not sure. Our plan is to breed him to our Connie but honestly his color combined with Connie concern me as I dont really want a whole litter of cream puppies. Although there is always the potential for color as Connies mother Kaelyn the running golden in the pics obviously has color and her mother (an english import) was actually quite dark... 

as far as health... someone already mentioned PRA which unfortunately the european type until recently couldn't be tested for which caused a problem... the second issue is hearts and that is not because they have more heart issues but the reality is that most european and UK breeders don't do heart clearances... I also find some structural differences the probably don't matter to anyone but me but I find that some english/european dogs (can I stop having to do this and can we agree that we can just call them english for sake of ease?) but some english dogs are crouchier in the rear and I dont find that they have very strong rears (this is not about hips) but rather the rear itself and that sometimes bothers me. I have not had an issue with this in my own dogs but I have seen it and it is something to watch. However, as a whole I find english fronts and heads to be better than those in the US dogs.... some of that is preference and some of that is real... cancer is an issue in goldens doesnt matter the type....hips are a problem in goldens doesnt matter the type... most everything is goign to be the same but the above are just my observations


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## LincolnsMom (Sep 28, 2010)

I am removing my post for personal reasons. Can a mod please remove this aswell?


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## Topi (Dec 8, 2010)

Littermates of Topper have a cream colored /light golden coat, it is nothing special it is just a different shade of Gold. As puppies the coat may appear almost white but it will darken with age to light gold.
I had an american bred, an american bred with an english mom and now an english Golden boy. 
The biggest difference is that the american bred did not eat horse poop. Thank god Topper grew out of it.

BTW
I would recommend the book The Ultimate Golden Retriever, edited by Valerie Voss. About the history and overall information on the Golden Retriever. With the most important breeders in Europe, the US and for the breed important dogs.

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Golden-Retriever-Second/dp/0764526383/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1297423005&sr=8-1[/ame]


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## mustluvgoldens (Feb 5, 2011)

Much of this thread was pretty interesting. I knew that the lighter goldens, especially those that are almost cream, came from European lines, but I had been told a few times that the color was introduced through cross breeding with Great Pyrenees to get that lighter color in the first place. I saw no mention of that so I'm curious if anyone else who breeds the lighter dogs has knowledge of that.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

No they have not been crossed with pyreneans. The original goldens came from yellow flatcoats and tweedwater spaniels. Other breeds were included , a bloodhound to improve scenting but never a pyrenean. The pale colouring is dilute form of the yellow gene and sometime we see black hairs on goldens in the UK Annef


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

mustluvgoldens said:


> Much of this thread was pretty interesting. I knew that the lighter goldens, especially those that are almost cream, came from European lines, but I had been told a few times that the color was introduced through cross breeding with Great Pyrenees to get that lighter color in the first place. I saw no mention of that so I'm curious if anyone else who breeds the lighter dogs has knowledge of that.


NO!!!! The colour became more common in Europe and the UK simply because dogs with the lighter coats did well in the shows there and so were bred on from. The lighter range of the colour spectrum was not favoured in the show ring in the US so those dogs were not bred on from as much as the mid- to darker Gold specimens. Similarly field breedings in both the US and UK tend to have a closer less profuse coat and less bone because working ability rather than showiness was the primary selection factor. It is quite simply a process of selective breeding, and the lighter dogs have no Pyr characteristics. Pyr's have some features that you would expect to see vestiges of if this were the case, including the rear dew claws, protectiveness/territoriality, more profuse undercoat, and commonly have patches of shading on their heads. I know quite a few of them as my vet breeds them. We also have a 9mo old in handling class with us now who is bigger than my full grown boys. Could an oversize, poorly bred, unkempt Golden like those we sometimes see in the pictures on the websites of the less than reputable be reminiscent of a Pyr? Maybe, but that's bad breeding and care, not mixing.


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## mustluvgoldens (Feb 5, 2011)

That's good since the GP's have even more health issues than Goldens and a shorter life span as well. My son rescued a "cream" golden who does show some GP characteristics and his vet pointed that out as well. It would be a terrible practice, I agree and it is being done in the Atlanta area whether planned or accidental. Some people think it's "cute" to crossbreed. I'm not really sure where all the "doodleing" is going but the golden doodles I have met, are very sweet. My goldens have always the bloodhound nose, especially one I currently own from a line with strong hunting instincts. Most of mine hunt the sofa, horse or duck poop.

The common ancestry with the flatcoats could be a clue to the high incidence of malignant histiocytosis in goldens as well as that breed. One of my goldens who died of lymphoma 9/2/10, was originally misdiagnosed with histio but the biopsy showed lymphoma instead. Got off the topic there a bit but sometimes when golden owners wonder about the cancers that occur in their dogs, a look back at their history and breeds with which they share ancestry, some clues may be found. But I'm thinking all the environmental factors/chemicals, pesticides, etc., in the past 20-30 years are what actually cause these predispositions to surface. But, I've been fortunate in owning goldens for almost 30 years to have had only one develop cancer and hope never again to go thru chemo with a golden.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

mustluvgoldens said:


> That's good since the GP's have even more health issues than Goldens and a shorter life span as well. My son rescued a "cream" golden who does show some GP characteristics and his vet pointed that out as well. It would be a terrible practice, I agree and it is being done in the Atlanta area whether planned or accidental. Some people think it's "cute" to crossbreed. I'm not really sure where all the "doodleing" is going but the golden doodles I have met, are very sweet. My goldens have always the bloodhound nose, especially one I currently own from a line with strong hunting instincts. Most of mine hunt the sofa, horse or duck poop.
> 
> The common ancestry with the flatcoats could be a clue to the high incidence of malignant histiocytosis in goldens as well as that breed. One of my goldens who died of lymphoma 9/2/10, was originally misdiagnosed with histio but the biopsy showed lymphoma instead. Got off the topic there a bit but sometimes when golden owners wonder about the cancers that occur in their dogs, a look back at their history and breeds with which they share ancestry, some clues may be found. But I'm thinking all the environmental factors/chemicals, pesticides, etc., in the past 20-30 years are what actually cause these predispositions to surface. But, I've been fortunate in owning goldens for almost 30 years to have had only one develop cancer and hope never again to go thru chemo with a golden.


Of the doodles I've met I've found them all to be extremely high energy. One of the biggest selling features is the "Golden Temperment" but in my experience that almost seems to be a recessive trait. I'm tired of the doodles and sad to see that the bulk of the people who buy them are disappointed.


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## mustluvgoldens (Feb 5, 2011)

The ones I've met are over the top energetic and usually have a 3' plus vertical leap. don't think I could handle that.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

The high energy thing is definitely from the poodles... but poodles are really nice dogs too. And _smart_. Sometimes smarter than their owners.  

I saw my first golden doodle last week when I was walking from my gym to the petstore. Somebody had a puppy outside the bank there and was showing him/her off. I didn't stop, but the "joy" and "I love you, everyone, and the whole world" that the dog had in greeting people outside the bank did remind me of goldens I know. 

It was cute little thing.


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## mustluvgoldens (Feb 5, 2011)

I think the doodles are supposed to work for people with allergies. And if they do, then I'm happy they can get a dog with a golden personality conbined with a poodle-ish agility and ability to hurdle fences of great height. Maybe they will live to be quite old. Poodles seem to live forever.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

mustluvgoldens said:


> I think the doodles are supposed to work for people with allergies. And if they do, then I'm happy they can get a dog with a golden personality conbined with a poodle-ish agility and ability to hurdle fences of great height. Maybe they will live to be quite old. Poodles seem to live forever.


The problem is, they often don't work for people with allergies. There is no way to predict if a puppy will get the coat, dander and shedding of the golden or the poodle coat, or a combo that might be curly but still shed (I know a couple of those-talk about a nightmare combo!). And, just as with the coats, there is no way to predict personality. 

I know two doodles that are adorable and sweet, and about 6 that are just a mess of shared traits, with some disappointed owners. A couple were rehomed because of the allergy thing, and that was sad on all accounts.

And none of this even takes into account that responsible breeders of goldens and poodles will not sell their carefully bred, checked for health issues, dogs to people who want to breed doodles. And, even if they did, both breeds have their share of health problems, some shared and some not.

Even the creator of the labradoodle has come out and said he's sorry he started the whole thing :doh:

And don't get me wrong-I LOVE poodles, and owned a toy poodle back in the 60's that I still cry over losing  One of my dear friends has settled on a toy or minature poodle as the dog for her, when the goldens get to be too much for her as she gets older.


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

I agree with the unpredictability of breeding doodles. I have yet to meet one that was not a total spaz. Not attractive to me at all. I would rather have a golden or a poodle. I agree with Megora, poodles are very smart! We can only hope that they get smarter than those doodle breeders and refuse to mate with goldens!


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## bioteach (Nov 13, 2010)

> A true pure white colouration can carry with it certain health disorders, such as congenital deafness. The lighter colour in Goldens is caused by a dilution factor. Goldens are all genetically yellow coated and the activity of this dilution factor determines whether that yellow manifests as almost red down to cream. The same is at work in yellow labradors producing the range from fox red down to their paler colours. It is pretty complex stuff that is beyond my high school biology to explain completely!


As an AP Bio teacher I can share a little more information about dilution genes. If you look at some distant relatives of dogs and other mammals (the Arctic Fox) you know that they turn white in the winter and then return to a deeper hue in the summer. Obviously this is a perfect adaption to extreme climates because of the advantage they have when the blend in with the snow. The dilution genes in these animals becomes active when the days are short so that as the winter coat grows pigment formation is blocked (this is called epistasis). When the winter coat is shed in the spring and days grow longer the gene is inactivated so that normal pigmentation returns. In many domesticated animals the gene can be bred into a line but it is not seasonal. Many lighter hued horses also owe their blonde coloration to dilution genes. I don't know whether or not this explains "snow nose" but it is possible!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

We find in the practice where I work that the goldendoodles are much nicer than the labradoodles... for what ever reason, the labradoodles are not as friendly. And they all do have degrees of shedding. Probably the least "sheddy" is the Australian Labradoodle and that is because they have backcrossed so much on the poodle, they look like poodles. That being the case, just get a poodle!! One of the Australian ones in our practice has complete mature cataracts and a heart murmur at 5 years. One of the goldendoodles we see that the owners paid $3500 for!!! was spayed at 8 weeks, has urinary incontinence, and severe allergies. She gets to eat $70 +/bag Z/d!! Several years ago, a former client who had a golden, now had a standard poodle bitch that she wanted to breed to a golden. I deliberately gave her names of stud dog owners that I knew wouldn't be nice. She claimed her bitch had all her clearances....


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