# Training Groups



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

For those of you who have a regular training group...

1. How often do you meet?
2. How many members do you have? Experience levels?
3. How long does it take to put your set-ups together?
4. How long are you out training (include how many set-ups you do, # dogs ran)?
5. Who decides on the setup? Is it planned ahead of time or on the fly?
6. Is there a balance between gunner time and running time?

I think that might be the questions I have for now...anyone with other questions please add. I will come back later and answer for my own training group later.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

I a semi regular member of one. Right now, because I have a dog that is at a different level, I do most of my training alone these days but stop by to say hello even if not running with them.

The group meets at least weekly, more when the days are longer some times. There are 8 or so of us, 4 'core' and always one or two that is there semi regularly. There are two very serious amateur FT folks (win trials and run nationals and have multiple dogs) a couple of pretty strong folks and the rest sort of QAA and sometimes finish an amateur. We try to agree on a theme of what we are running (long angle entries, etc) and set it up. Especially in the summer when time is of the essence we try to be very efficient (e.g., we throw water marks for the next dog when the previous one is still swimming back) and not waste a lot of time setting up. There is a balance between running time and gunning time in that everyone will get to run their dog but if you only have one you will spend more time in the field than the guy with six. I don't mind that, but I try to run between one of the hard core types so they can critique me.

IMO a training group works best when folks are doing similar stuff. It is easier to work in different level folks in HT groups than FT groups, though.

With my club's training days we run the gamut from 'just got this dog but he has never seen a bird' to dogs with a "N" in their name. On those we try to set up things that everyone can benefit, but err to the side of something for the n00bs or if someone has a test or trial coming up and needs to work on something specific. We do these monthly.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

LOL, there are 2 of us in my group. Sometimes 3. We try to meet at least once a month. Sometimes we make more than that if the weather is okay, maybe 2 or 3 times a month. We are both total newbies, although his dog is awesome.
We own some wingers, and we usually have birds either from Dan's or that my partner has shot during hunting seasons. 
It takes about 10 minutes to set up the wingers. A little longer to catch up on what's new with each other since we last got together. We just decide on the fly what we want to set up.
We work for about 1-1/2 to 2 hours, depending on the temperature and what else we have going on that day. Since we only run 2 or at most 3 dogs, each dog gets to run until they are ready to fall over. Well his dog is NEVER ready to fall over, he's a high powered lab, but he runs until his tongue gets too long and then we put him up.
Because we use wingers with remote electronics, there aren't really any gunners. My training partner has been an angel with this boot thing on my foot and does most of the re-setting.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

For the last couple of years I have been training more on my own, and getting together with friends for group training when we can swing it. 

I would agree with Tatnalls that it helps if your dogs are running at a similar level and working on similar skills. 

I used to be a member of a group that met regularly on Saturdays from the end of hunting season until the beginning of test season. It was mostly hunt testers along with a few people who were dabbling at the Qual level. We generally would do two setups in a day--a drill first designed to work on teaching a specific skill and then a marking setup designed to have the dogs practice that skill. However, as our dogs progressed, some of them started to get more heavily into field trials and once they graduated from Qual, the setups they needed to run to prepare for Open/Am were just not what my young dogs needed! So the group kind of splintered off. Trying to get back into a regular training pattern with some other hunt test folks now.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> For those of you who have a regular training group...
> 
> 1. How often do you meet?
> 2. How many members do you have? Experience levels?
> ...


Including myself we have 9 people in our group now but it fluctuates every week how many people are there. Three are total beginners with young dogs and new to the group (and two of them need better recalls or they will never progress :doh. Then there's me and a friend who are kind of in-between...we've been training awhile and our dogs can do some more technical stuff but we are not beyond a Jr. yet. The other 3 have achieved SH titles on different dogs but never Master. We meet once a week.

It can take awhile to set things up. It took 45 minutes the other day to organize and set-up....but that includes the straggle time for being not on time. We are usually out there for three hours and usually get at least two set-ups done but some weeks it is only one. Sometimes it is planned ahead but with so many beginners the information isn't passed until day off.

Some of the group members have two dogs. So, by necessity they spend less time throwing than those with one dog. If all dogs are there we have 13.

So I am largely curious what everyone does because there are a few...quirks that have come up and trying to sort them out with different personalities = not fun.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Here is a great thread from RTF on training groups. Training Group Rules - RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF

We used to have someone who would show up with 5 dogs to run in my old group! At that point there was a 2 dog limit per handler established. Now when I train there are usually only 4 or 5 of us, so we tend to use wingers and just each reload one station and alternate running our dogs.

I think setting up some ground rules, like establishing a running/gunning order helps a lot--a small white board or chalk board works well for this. Figure out how many dogs there are to run, split it in half, or thirds. Try to split the multiple dog handlers evenly between the running groups and set it up so that everyone throws for the same number of dogs. One of my friends is physically just not able to throw because of arthritis, but her husband is--he does not run the dogs, so he is her proxy thrower!! Maybe suggesting that they provide a gunner would be appropriate if you have people who are unwilling to do the physical work.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks. I think I will have to suggest an established running order. There kind of is one already...just not spoken.

We are having problems with time management (well, at least one member is disgruntled). It doesn't bother me as much because it is kind of what I expect. Field stuff takes a long time to train. And really, to get two set-ups ran in three hours feels pretty good when you contrast it to the club training days where you get one run and could be there for 8 hours plus paying for it, plus driving 45-60 minute out of town, plus helping throw birds (which not everyone does, but they should since it takes a lot of work to get things done and have that opportunity). There's also the reality that if you want four gunners in the field you better plan on being out there to throw at least four times (for those gunners). That's just me.

Also as the youngest member of the group and one of the less experienced members I have ideas or things I want to see changed...but its hard with my background to justify myself (no experience, just read some things and gut feelings). I am tired of training in the same, flat, short, featureless field every week. I would like to include long marks sometimes in our training. Some members are resistant to the idea of long marks because we aren't 'field trialers' with their crazy set-ups and demands. I say, it can only be good for my dog to occasionally get a 200 yard mark as long as I balance it with the shorter marks. Same with the blinds. *sigh*


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Thanks. I think I will have to suggest an established running order. There kind of is one already...just not spoken.
> 
> We are having problems with time management (well, at least one member is disgruntled). It doesn't bother me as much because it is kind of what I expect. Field stuff takes a long time to train. And really, to get two set-ups ran in three hours feels pretty good when you contrast it to the club training days where you get one run and could be there for 8 hours plus paying for it, plus driving 45-60 minute out of town, plus helping throw birds (which not everyone does, but they should since it takes a lot of work to get things done and have that opportunity). There's also the reality that if you want four gunners in the field you better plan on being out there to throw at least four times (for those gunners). That's just me.
> 
> Also as the youngest member of the group and one of the less experienced members I have ideas or things I want to see changed...but its hard with my background to justify myself (no experience, just read some things and gut feelings). I am tired of training in the same, flat, short, featureless field every week. I would like to include long marks sometimes in our training. Some members are resistant to the idea of long marks because we aren't 'field trialers' with their crazy set-ups and demands. I say, it can only be good for my dog to occasionally get a 200 yard mark as long as I balance it with the shorter marks. Same with the blinds. *sigh*


Uggh. No wonder some of those folks are not advancing. Your dogs need to see different terrain factors and features, and marks of varying lengths so they can really recognize depth of fall as well as line to the fall. They are not doing ther dogs any favours by doing the same-ol' same-ol'. Even "just hunt testers" like us need to be running bigger marks--the dogs need it so they will have the confidence and the momentum to dig out a tough long bird in a test. While marks/blinds beyond 100yards are not the norm in hunt tests, the regs do not say "shall not exceed", but "should not regularly exceed"--a big difference there which means you can see retrieves beyond 100 yards, so your dogs should be more than prepared to dothat!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well I am trying to push for other locations. I mean it was great for awhile in winter and with the puppies but now running in these cow pastures week after week with like no cover seems....not super productive. The same member who feels like we shouldn't run long marks doesn't want to move yet because he thinks it might be too much for the younger dogs just starting. I think it's hogwash. They have to learn how to deal with cover and terrain at some point...why not now? If they struggle we'll be there to help them out...throw a second bumper, quack a few times, or move up on the mark.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I wish we had a group. Years ago there was a pretty active group however it was disbanded about six years ago (before I got Dooley). I would love to start up another one, so I am watching this thread with great interest.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I belong to a great group. There have been 11 of training for upland and we have been working weekly getting ready(its this weekend). Our summer group is much bigger about 20-25 sometimes newbies show up too. We have several trainers that have MH on their dogs they are super about taking the time to help each of us. Set-ups dont take to long about 15minutes as the 5 main trainers arrive early and figure out what we are going to work on. Last summer we had one girl that came every week to throw birds so we only had to take turns with one bird boy position.
Oh I forgot to add the club has about 300arces to train on many different places each week. It was supper nice during haying season we did have to set up blinds we used the round bales.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Uggh is right. I have a lot of problems with that one. Length helps with momentum and depth perception with marking. If I am paying a club for training I want to train my dog. Ours doesn't (require paying) and will set up anything you want pretty much, or adapt to it.

You can't train in the same field and expect to get as mujch as exposing your dog to different terrain and cover. 

You are on the right track!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Wow I am jealous! If you train with the club it is $15-20 (depending on duck or pigeon and they do live fliers) plus they keep the birds and you are expected to help. They always offer lunch for $5. Everyone is really nice and helpful though. They generally do two groups and modify based on experience : Puppies/Junior then Senior/Master.

On top of that I have the group I train with which is experiencing the shortcomings (or at least what I think are shortcomings). But it is free as long as you are willing to throw, takes less time, and is closer to home. plus, in general the group is nice. I've heard not all groups are that way...or friendly and helpful to newbies.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Everybody pretty much chips in with birds. Fliers you bring your own. You are expected to throw and help out. I don't have a problem if you are paying for the fliers. Also they may be saving the birds for the next training day. But I do expect birds on the next training day. Lunch is provided by the club. But everybody usually brings something. Anything from Venison sausage to somebody killed a hog and brought some Jalapeno Cheese Sausage to ...... whatever shows up.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

At my club's training days, everything is free except for fliers. I think we charge $10 apiece for them. You bring your own lunch but once or twice a year we will cook some BBQ


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

*1. How often do you meet?

Every Tuesday between April 1 and Sept 30

2. How many members do you have? Experience levels?

From 3-8 handlers, 5-12 dogs
Newbies to some running at Master Hunter level

3. How long does it take to put your set-ups together?

Depends on the conditions of the grounds we are using that week. Can be setup in 10 minutes or coulld take 30 minutes

4. How long are you out training (include how many set-ups you do, # dogs ran)?

6-7 hours average. Usually get in two land and two water series. If there are oover 10 dogs then usual 2 land, 1 water. During the HOT days we may skip land and just do 2 water.

5. Who decides on the setup? Is it planned ahead of time or on the fly?

Generally a consensus of the group and can be adjusted for anyone who would like to do it different. Not unusual for someone to encounter something different at a test and email the group to think about what we can do that week to help.

6. Is there a balance between gunner time and running time?

Yes. Everyone who runs must also take their turn in the field. Lucky to have a great group as there are sometimes for whatever reason someone probably does not need to go out, but they will INSIST they do. 
*


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

1. Training days are every 3rd Sat. of the month.
Individuals in the club train whenever they can get together. In my case 2-3 days a week minimum.

2. From one who ran the National Amateur (with two AFC's) to to several with MH's to the Grands. We have mix of all. Attendance varies according to who is hunting or running tests.

3. About an hour to set what will work and can be adapted to the different dogs running and will be adapted to teach and we will teach as long as it takes.

4. Four stations in the field and a water series with four stations. Whenever you are ready to go home. Usually until everybody has got done with what they want to do with their dogs.

5. Sometimes a consensus, sometimes the training coordinator sets it up. Depends on what tests are coming up. You are asked before you go to the line what you want to do.

6. Yep, change out every 3 or 4 dogs.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Sunday Training Group, 3 people- 5 dogs (sometimes others will drop in)
Takes about 30 min. to discuss what everyone wants to work on and set it up. We have 4 wingers between us and may hand throw. Before you step to the line, you call out how your dog is going to run the set up. Everyone takes a turn at throwing, loading and running. We usually run two set ups or a set up and a drill.

Tuesday group that I go to when I'm off. Same rules as above.

I have a couple other people that I meet with when we can get our schedules to match up, maybe every other week. Work on what ever is needed.

HRC Club training 2nd Sunday of the month Feb-Sept.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

one of the guys that once in a while trains with us has a retired MH dog that he often brings along, just because she loves it. It works really well for us, because we usually run her as a test dog. It's amazing how often we realize we've set up something too hard for our dogs when we watch her run.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> one of the guys that once in a while trains with us has a retired MH dog that he often brings along, just because she loves it. It works really well for us, because we usually run her as a test dog. It's amazing how often we realize we've set up something too hard for our dogs when we watch her run.



In our group there are two AKC Hunt test judges, both at junior and senior level, so it helps a LOT to avoid some of that from happening. And best is they are two members who are there religiously every week.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

1. How often do you meet?

1-3 times a week

2. How many members do you have? Experience levels?

2 to 5 -- three of us with master dogs, others in junior.

3. How long does it take to put your set-ups together?

I would say 15-30 minutes to set up

4. How long are you out training (include how many set-ups you do, # dogs ran)?

I would say 3 to 5 hours depending on daylight. We generally start in the mid-afternoon and go til dark. Usually just one setup but sometimes two. We tend to do a whole setup with marks and blinds and run it in stages (i.e. singles and blinds, then come back and put it together, etc).

5. Who decides on the setup? Is it planned ahead of time or on the fly?

I tend to be the ringleader but will always ask the others what they want to accomplish at this training day. It's become a running gag that they sit around and let me decide. Mainly because I'm bossy but also because when they meet and train without me whatever they set up ends up being a disaster! LOL We are usually quite critical of the setup though and try to come up with something different and challenging.

6. Is there a balance between gunner time and running time?

Everyone gets their dogs run through, generally those with just one dog spend more time gunning but that's just the way it works. Between Kristin and I, the two of us provide the birds, shot and equipment so guess what, the others can do more than their share of throwing.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

GoldenSail said:


> For those of you who have a regular training group...





GoldenSail said:


> 1. How often do you meet?


I work with two different training groups. One is a field trial group that meets twice a week. The other is the Retriever Club that meets once a week.




GoldenSail said:


> 2. How many members do you have? Experience levels?


The Retriever Club is a large group with 20 to 40 members of varying skill level from absolute newby to Master. 
The field trial group usually has four to eight people at each session with dogs at varying levels Derby, Qual and Open. 




GoldenSail said:


> 3. How long does it take to put your set-ups together?


The Club sessions take the longest to set up due to running two seperate scenarios simultaneously. (one group for puppies through Junior. The other group for Senior and Master dogs.) It probably takes 20 to 30 minutes to set up. 



GoldenSail said:


> 4. How long are you out training (include how many set-ups you do, # dogs ran)?


The Club group sets up at around 3:00 in the afternoon and goes until dark (6 or 7 hours). We probably run 60 to 80 dogs during that time. 

The field trial group gets in the field early in the morning, and stays until dark (12+ hours) We'll run 20 to 30 dogs on at least 3 different scenarios, marks, land blinds and water blinds. One session each week includes a flyer for each dog. 



GoldenSail said:


> 5. Who decides on the setup? Is it planned ahead of time or on the fly?


With the Club group the the training committee creates a list of drills and test scenarios that are kept in a file folder. We select the scenario or drill from the file folder depending upon the area we're in and the weather conditions at the time. Some days it will be land, another day it may be water. Once the Hunt Test season gets underway we try to select training areas that are similar to the test grounds for the upcoming weekend. (If the test grounds are rolling we'll be looking for some hills to train on, etc.) 

The Field Trial group works on what is anticipated for the next upcoming trial or on specific issues that a particular dog is having at the time. A particular Judge tends to be consistent in what they favor in test design. (For example if I'm your hunt test judge it's very likely you're going to see 50 to 100 goose decoys in the field.) We try to anticipate the quirks and work on the elements a Judge usually incorporates into their test. 




GoldenSail said:


> 6. Is there a balance between gunner time and running time?


We try very hard to share the workload as evenly as practicable.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

GoldenSail said:


> For those of you who have a regular training group...
> 
> 1. How often do you meet?
> 2. How many members do you have? Experience levels?
> ...




1. We meet 5 days a week for bumper sessions.
2. Members range from 5 to maybe 15. Several just drop in from time to time, there are 6 hard core members.
3. Time on task for setups, these are bumper sessions, maybe just a few minutes for placing throwers.
4. On Tuesday we had four dogs and trained about 90 minutes.
5. We have one seasoned field trialer/hunt tester that runs the show. Individualized needs are addressed.

Club day is different, we get flyers, once a month March through September, 10 to 25 people (or more), setup is an hour, training could be 3 or 4 hours, generally one land series and one water series.

Oh, I left out that after club training day we treat ourselves to burgers and beer at a local tavern.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

GoldenSail said:


> So I am largely curious what everyone does because there are a few...quirks that have come up and trying to sort them out with different personalities = not fun.



If you could mention what the issues in the training group are that you would like to address I might be able to offer some advice. If you prefer, PM me. We deal with several issues here.


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