# New Article Challenges



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Flip's been pretty consistent in his article training, it's rare for him to grab a wrong article, and he has _never _frozen in the pile (that would be way too unFlip like!). I realized after showing in Wild Card Utility though, that training articles successfully in normal Flip-state has nothing to do with him being successful in "OMG the utility ring is the coolest place to be EVER" ramped up state. He just could not be bothered to check out the whole pile, and only managed to sniff one or two articles before grabbing one that looked tasty to him. Both times.

So I need to start practicing articles with him more riled up. I started last night. I put out the articles on his tie down mat, one scented one down, let him in the house, and let him tug on the ultimate tug toy - a skineeze (the one he won Sunday for being high scoring sporting dog, actually ) and then had him release and immediately sent him to the pile. He was pretty excited, but managed to search the pile and get the correct article. As soon as he was back I exchanged the article for tug time with the toy and THAT is what got him over the top. When he realized that bringing back an article would lead to special tug time, he could not wait to bring back the next article. He just started grabbing every article he came to. Finally he got the right one. I repeated twice more and he didn't get the wrong article, but he didn't have to search long either, so I don't know if he would have made a grab if he hadn't found it in the first few articles. I am going to keep training like this the rest of the week and see how he does in grad open this weekend.

The other issue I had was setting him up for articles. With every dog I've trained, I bent over and pointed at the steward placing out the pile, said "look what she's got" and then turned around and picked up the first article. I'm having trouble doing this with Flip because when I point out the pile he locks onto it and he does not want to turn with me. And yep, when I told Flip to heel so I could get the article on Sunday, he took off for the pile instead (while the steward was still on the ground placing them out). I had to call him back in. I might have to start getting the article before I turn around, in order to help grab his attention better, or even not point out the pile at all. I'll have to play around and see what works best.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

You know, for all the challenges involved, I still prefer the dogs that ramp up


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

shhhuuudddeerrsss..... WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A LONG TALK IN FLORIDA!!!!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

That's a whole month away, long talk me now!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Jodie why not just use a slip lead thru the collar till you turn and pick up the article for now. Wean him off it over time.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Thank you for the voice of reason Hank..LOL! 

Jodie You are soooo in trouble.. you never once mentioned the little thing with the articles all week long....Jodie..(Shakes head)..(picture me with my arms crossed and the to tapping......)


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Well I didn't specifically talk about articles, but said he was way over the top and only scored a 95 out of a possible 200 points, so I thought it was pretty evident we had A LOT to work on LOL


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

He also went crooked on one of his go outs, leapt in the air going from his drop to his sit on signals, started running when I said "ready" on a go out, made a wide turn on gloves, slammed into me on a front, and licked my face instead of finishing after the final jump.

Okay, ready for long talk now! :wave:


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

:--appalled::--appalled::--appalled::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh: :headbang2:headbang2:headbang2


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Loisiana said:


> He also went crooked on one of his go outs, leapt in the air going from his drop to his sit on signals, started running when I said "ready" on a go out, made a wide turn on gloves, slammed into me on a front, and licked my face instead of finishing after the final jump.
> 
> Okay, ready for long talk now! :wave:



Sounds better than some of my early ventures into the utility ring with Oriana. :doh:

It WILL get better!!.......eventually


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> He also went crooked on one of his go outs, leapt in the air going from his drop to his sit on signals, started running when I said "ready" on a go out, made a wide turn on gloves, slammed into me on a front, and licked my face instead of finishing after the final jump.
> 
> Okay, ready for long talk now! :wave:


Okay for everything you just said above...Titan has done... except the article problem.. Just ask Susan about my beautiful UB run ending in a hug, lick and followed by a few hops to the tune of 7 points...ROFL! I would expect to see most of those things (granted not in the same run)
in a green dog..
Articles on the other hand and what you are doing now.....We will talk later..child!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

OK Michelle I am curious if you have a problem with the tug toy/frenzied state articles or the pointing at the pile stuff.
B/C I was reading the tug stuff from Jodie, and really liking it.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Oh and Michelle and Jodie, are you going to the Orlando club obedience trials Wed-Thurs-Fri before Eukanuba?


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> Oh and Michelle and Jodie, are you going to the Orlando club obedience trials Wed-Thurs-Fri before Eukanuba?


Yes I sent my entries in today.. Almost forgot. Now I know I will be showing Thursday.. but will play it by ear on the other two. See you there! I can't wait..

Yes I have a problem with the frenzied tugging and sending to the pile. You will never have that happen in the ring and it is setting them up for all kinds of problems in the future. This is not a flat retrieve and if they get that mixed up you hear horror stories of the dog always having that issue. I don't believe in setting a dog up to fail. You help them do it right.. Just my opinion though..for what it's worth...Jodie and I don't always agree....LOL!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Titan1 said:


> Yes I have a problem with the frenzied tugging and sending to the pile. You will never have that happen in the ring and it is setting them up for all kinds of problems in the future. This is not a flat retrieve and if they get that mixed up you hear horror stories of the dog always having that issue. I don't believe in setting a dog up to fail. You help them do it right.


And see in my mind it's not setting the dog up to fail, it's showing the dog that he still needs to continue his search despite the pumped up feelings. The tie downs are preventing him from actually getting a wrong article and forcing him to continue looking. Now if I didn't see a very quick turn around in his effort to search and not just grab then I wouldn't want to do it, because then I would be concerned that I am just increasing his grabbing tendency. But my hope was that by doing this a few times it would teach him how to work correctly no matter what state of mind he was in. Otherwise, I'm afraid that I'll get in a cycle of him getting excited in the ring, grabbing any article, and thinking it's okay.



> Just my opinion though..for what it's worth...Jodie and I don't always agree....LOL!


Yeah, ask her about my new method of training Flip for stays. Not her idea. ROFL

I will be gettng into Orlando on Thursday, I guess if Michelle is still showing I'll head up there. Unless I want to hang out on the streets of Orlando with my luggage LOL. On Friday I'll be wherever someone is that is nice enough to let me hitch a ride, since I won't have a car.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

In class we are currently studying "internal conflict." I now have an example to provide: do what your gut tells you, or do what your friend who is one of the best in the country tells you!

I decided to try again today what I did yesterday to see what he would do. Because NO, I don't want him to think that sending him to articles means do a retrieve, that is exactly what I am attempting to unteach him. And he did articles fine. After his first two were successful I added extra untied articles to the pile so I could make sure he was really having to search, and he still did not do any grabbing. So getting him pumped up with the toy has resulted in one initial grabby send, and then 8 successful sends after that. It seems like it's being successful in my mind, but maybe I'm really not doing the right thing? I don't know... But even if it is something I decided to continue with, it's not something I would do on a regular basis anyway, just a once in a while thing.

Oh one sad effect of the training session is that the toy was ripped in two  That boy sure is a strong tugger, none of my other dogs have ever ripped a toy just by tugging on it, but he does regularly. He was quite funny looking back and forth from the half in my hand to the half on the floor, looking like "OMG there's TWO of them, which one should I put in my mouth?!"


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hi Jodie, do you have Bridget Carlsen's DVDs? She very specifically RECOMMENDS doing what you're doing -- not with articles specifically but with hyper dogs. She gets them REVVED UP in training then WORKS THROUGH IT. Rather than all these exercises to get them to chill out. Almost verbatim to your post, she explains she puts them in a heightened state of mind during training (usually with tug games) which replicates the stress of showing. And if nothing else it gets you a REALLY HAPPY dog who loves to train. So I'm diggin it 
But I will tell you something else. I don't think revving a dog up is necessarily the cure of all evils. I think you have to assess the situation and see where it would be prudent. Ask yourself : Do I need less action, or the CORRECT action. If you need the CORRECT action despite stress then this revving up could really work. If you need LESS action then it probably just fuels the fire (i.e. I wouldn't do this for a dog breaking stays on a recall, breaking for the dumbbell, or otherwise moving when he shouldn't be). Does that make sense?


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

K9-Design said:


> Hi Jodie, do you have Bridget Carlsen's DVDs? She very specifically RECOMMENDS doing what you're doing -- not with articles specifically but with hyper dogs. She gets them REVVED UP in training then WORKS THROUGH IT. Rather than all these exercises to get them to chill out. Almost verbatim to your post, she explains she puts them in a heightened state of mind during training (usually with tug games) which replicates the stress of showing. And if nothing else it gets you a REALLY HAPPY dog who loves to train. So I'm diggin it
> But I will tell you something else. I don't think revving a dog up is necessarily the cure of all evils. I think you have to assess the situation and see where it would be prudent. Ask yourself : Do I need less action, or the CORRECT action. If you need the CORRECT action despite stress then this revving up could really work. If you need LESS action then it probably just fuels the fire (i.e. I wouldn't do this for a dog breaking stays on a recall, breaking for the dumbbell, or otherwise moving when he shouldn't be). Does that make sense?


I *NOW* would agree with this after making all the mistakes I need with Oriana early on. I believe the 2nd biggest mistake I made was so trying to keep her calm and totally under control while training I removed ALL treats and toys and my "praise" was limited to a whispering of "good girl". Otherwise she would be higher than high. Made total sense to me. Then when at shows I would try to keep her "calm" but once in the ring and I would unhook the leash it was all ON. And not in a bad way, all she has ever wanted to do was please me to be happy. Problem was she had no way to know how to handle her excitement/stress AND still please me. It went down hill very quickly especially once we got into the Utility ring. 
It was then that I realized my BIGGEST mistake. I thought I knew what I was doing on my own because I had trained my prior dogs to CDX, UD, UDX, and CD titles. It was then that I sought out a professional to fix us and boy has it been an eye opening experience.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Hank - do you find different pros are better based on your dog's dogaility? I am starting to think that the more up my dogs are, the more I need to be creative with instructors and training in order to keep the joy while limiting some of the over the top behaviours. 

I am now trying to ramp both Faelan and Towhee before each training session since they tend to stress up in trial situations. They can both be cool, calm and collected during training but at trials - whoeeee


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

I would go with the "expert" who has the most like your dog. I think they are alot of great "experts" out there.. I have only trained my dog so no need to stick with anything I say. As I have told Jodie before I ask my trainer.
Concerning my comments on the articles. I am not saying to keep your dog mellow to learn the exercises.. Titan is not a calm dog..but I try to set up real dog scenerios.. playing tug and then sending my dog is not something I would ever do.. But I have mixed up the exercises so the thing I know I have to work on is the thing I will try after I get him ramped up. Say you have a problem with the MS.. and he gets really wound up doing go outs.. I would follow the go outs with the MS and make him work through it.. So I guess it would be the same thing you are doing just different method of getting them up..Hey... I still have tons to learn and don't pretend to know anything other than what I have seen and been taught. I learn new things at every show..LOL! have fun whatever you decide to do!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Sunrise said:


> Hank - do you find different pros are better based on your dog's dogaility? I am starting to think that the more up my dogs are, the more I need to be creative with instructors and training in order to keep the joy while limiting some of the over the top behaviours.
> 
> I am now trying to ramp both Faelan and Towhee before each training session since they tend to stress up in trial situations. They can both be cool, calm and collected during training but at trials - whoeeee



Having only worked with one "pro" I don't think I can answer that. But it likely a good "general rule". However I do believe there are a few pros out there that are good with ALL types of dogs and problems and are always willing and open to new ideas. They can easily adapt there methods to suit the dog and refine them them as needed. My trainer goes to several seminars by others each year to hear what is out there and then see if it can work with them. One of their favorite seminars in the past year was a Shutzhund seminar. 
As to getting Oriana revved up before a session, that really does not take much if anything. As soon as I start working with her "it is ON".


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

AmbikaGR said:


> As to getting Oriana revved up before a session, that really does not take much if anything. As soon as I start working with her "it is ON".


I'll take that any day of the week 

There are no "experts" just people with different opinions that can either help or hinder you. Find who you jive with and keep an open mind.


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