# Video of Scout Running Single T



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well, I got someone to video tape me running Scout and I am so proud of how well she did! She still not as solid as I would like on looking out but at least she's getting better. It seems she does good for the first retrieve but gets funny in-between. She knows all of the casts except here I just did not want to send her too many times.

Do you think she is too loopy on her whistle sit and do you think I need to address it now? I hate to nitpick and don't want to lower confidence.

On another note I can't believe how much she is finally starting to change! She's getting coat and looking a little scraggly with it and she's starting to fill out. I don't have a very ribby little puppy anymore! Next year is going to be a fun one I think.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GREAT VIDEO! Scout is sooooo cute! Darling.
Okay now for reality check.

*YOUR DOG IS BUGGING BIG TIME*

All of that nonsense is called AVOIDANCE and YOU ARE FEEDING INTO IT BY ENTERTAINING HER DURING IT.

First off I would stop saying Dead Bird to get her to look out. Instead say SIT. SIT means, not only to sit but to sit straight and LOOK FORWARD. Your dog is bugging because she wants to avoid the work. She wants to avoid the work because it is stressful. It's hard and that is stress. To get through this you are going to apply MORE STRESS to get her to overcome it and make the choice that working is less stress than the consequence of not working. Thus, I use SIT rather than DEAD BIRD at this stage so she does not learn to associate "DEAD BIRD" with stress.
But that's small potatoes. She is doing ALL SORTS of avoidance bugging. From not getting in heel position, not sitting when told to in heel position, looking at you, looking all around. It's time. Step forward three steps and do a low burn while you step. "Heel"-burn (low -- so if she doesn't change her behavior you can go up) The second she looks toward the pile, send her on BACK. Do not nitpick her line, just send her the moment she looks down, but let her know that GOOFING OFF IN HEEL POSITION SUCKS and that the best way out of it is to GO GO GO.
You will run into all sorts of brick walls but I guarantee it will clean up all of that garbage and make your time running blinds from here on out much easier and more productive. What she is doing now is just as bad as popping. It's popping at the line is what it is. Don't tolerate it.
Also, she needs to wear a tab so you can take her by the tab and guide her firmly into heel position. She's a big girl and shouldn't need to be told twice to heel and sit in heel position. The tab allows you to do this. 

Now as far as the loopy sit, I think you need a LOUDER and somewhat LONGER whistle. That will stop her. Your whistle is way too short. The sit isn't really that loopy.

Her casts were lovely! GOOD JOB!!!!!

But you've got to get out of this pattern when sending and you've let it progress way to far. The next step is the dog jumping up on you, climbing up your leg, and that is awful. Stop it now.


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Thank for the insight I will try to fix. I know she's had that problem I guess my answer has been to be patient. I do understand and believe that it is important to work through stress and teach your dog to handle it rather than avoid it, but still it can be hard to put that in action!


----------



## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Your posts always give me something to think about. 
I'm never sure when to switch from teaching to insisting on compliance. 
Scout is sure pretty girl.
Holly


----------



## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Great video! Makes me want to get out and do some training! We have not done any field training in so long!


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

hollyk said:


> Your posts always give me something to think about.
> I'm never sure when to switch from teaching to insisting on compliance.
> Scout is sure pretty girl.
> Holly


You know, I always wonder that too. It's a hard call to make...

And I am not going to lie, Anney's post was very helpful but I am not looking forward to the fixing bugging. She's my baby and I hate being hard on her even if I can logically accept it when applied properly.


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I loved the video - it really looks like Scout is starting to understand  She is taking nice lines and responds to your directionals very nicely. And what a beauty she is.

One thing I noticed - when you maintain position, so does Scout. When you bend over, walk forward etc Scout breaks. I would pretty much expect my dogs to break with all that handler movement, especially with the left leg moving.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Thank for the insight I will try to fix. I know she's had that problem I guess my answer has been to be patient. I do understand and believe that it is important to work through stress and teach your dog to handle it rather than avoid it, but still it can be hard to put that in action!


I get what you're saying, I really do. But you have a collar for a reason. You follow a modern retriever training program for a reason. Don't arbitrarily pick and choose what parts to follow. You've got a really nice dog but you're letting her develop a real bad problem. I had this same thing with Fisher in the same stage and the heel-nick-heel was a godsend. To this day he has some buggy tendencies, ants in his pants stuff, and I have to keep on top of it. 
As far as being patient. I feel ya but there's patience and there's allowing something to develop into a deep-rooted PROBLEM because you are unwilling to fix it.
For example -------- when I first started really running blinds with Fisher, on any sort of open water blind (i.e. long and no shore immediately in site) he would jump in happy as a clam, swim ten yards, and pop. I had no idea what to do, didn't want to screw anything up, and instead of doing anything about it, I would do nothing -- I would look AT the blind destination, not the dog, Fisher would tread about three strokes then continue on his way. He would then proceed just fine or could be handled. Well, I thought by doing nothing, providing no direction, the behavior would extinguish as he became more confident. 
Then I spent one afternoon training with someone a lot more experienced with me who said, what your dog seeks when he pops is INFORMATION. He has learned that if YOU do NOTHING, that that means to him "good dog, keep going straight." He wants guidance and feedback and because I allowed him to pop with no consequence, he learned that no movement from me meant he was doing the right thing!
Well obviously that had to stop. I got with my trainer at home and had a few sessions of force to pile on land (*****A FOUNDATION STEP I HAD NEGLECTED TO DO -- because after I stopped bugging in T work I never again had any bugging, no goes, or pops during transition****). When the dog understood FTP on land I instituted a very hard rule on water blinds that if you pop AT ALL you are getting a BIG BACK-NICK-BACK. Well I probably had to do that five or six times and that was IT. No more popping on water blinds, to this day.
If I had been patient and waited it out -- I would have a dog who habitually popped, with a deep seated, long standing problem.
I guarantee if you took Scout to any pro trainer they would spot this immediately and say that this one issue is your current biggest training snafu and that you need to sort it out pronto.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

To be brutally honest, I have very high expectations of my dogs, and I think you get what you expect. 
Scout is 2. She's not a baby any more. You've been training a lot, for quite a while, and I don't think it's at all unrealistic to expect compliance at this time. 
JMO, of course.
That said, she really looks great! She's matured very nicely, and her coat is looking good, too.





GoldenSail said:


> You know, I always wonder that too. It's a hard call to make...
> 
> And I am not going to lie, Anney's post was very helpful but I am not looking forward to the fixing bugging. She's my baby and I hate being hard on her even if I can logically accept it when applied properly.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

And another thing --- heel-nick-heel for bugging is NOT a traumatic thing. You may have to take several steps before she looks down at the pile and you send her, but usually the light comes on REAL quick.
There is a lot less drama and apprehension by the dog on fixing bugging like this than FTP. In FTP the dog often looks out and says "OH CRAP OUT THERE IS WHERE I GET IT" and will bug, no go, climb your leg, vocalize, anything but settle and be sent. It's then that dogs who have never bugged or no-goed, start with those behaviors. You purposefully create the stress to cause the behavior which you must then correct. A little backwards but that is how you work through the steps to create a very solid blind running dog.
I think you'll have a lot of success with it once you try it.
I forgot to ask but have you already done FTP en route? That maybe where she developed this bugging.


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> Thank for the insight I will try to fix. I know she's had that problem I guess my answer has been to be patient. I do understand and believe that it is important to work through stress and teach your dog to handle it rather than avoid it, but still it can be hard to put that in action!


I have a different take on your dog's performance...and yours. I hope this helps because I see several fundamental weaknesses that are eroding your dog's overall perfomance.

The first thing that struck me was that this dog lacks intensity, which makes me suspect insufficient force work prior to starting T work. But going back a bit further is a lack of formalized obedience. Your dog seems to think standing up is optional at any time. It is not. You are the handler, and are in charge of what she does. She appears to have learned very well how to handle _you_.

She was allowed to stand while you sent her - sensing that you were working so hard just to get her to look out that you let it go. There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise that you are. If you don't hold a high standard for sit, why would she? I also noticed the absence of a heeling stick with which to manage this and other fundamental issues.

I think here looping sit is a problem, and it will become a bigger one if not fixed now within the confines of this drill. A looping sit is what the human eye sees, but is happening only because it's a slow sit. If a dog were sitting fast enough there would be no time to loop.

There are many potential benefits in land T work. But the trainer must take advantage of them. There is much more to Single T than Go, Stop, and Cast. You have small problems that can be fixed now. If you don't, they're only get bigger.





 
EvanG


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Yes I did FTP en route. Honestly when we did it she barely blinked an eye, and the most I got out of here was an indignant 'woof' a few times (I imagine she was thinking 'I'm going, I'm going!') I also did the nick when she was popping en route that helped clear things up a lot, but there was some funny stuff in between. She once ran and got to the apex and did this funny circle before continuing on and I am certain that was due to being nicked there.

I will try it, but can you give me an idea of what to expect? I've been patient and hesitant to do so when she's close to me. I am worried that it will make the bugging worse. Do I nick if she does not sit? If she is looking in the wrong direction? Sounds like it could be a lot :/

And to think I thought it would all be better once I got through FF!


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Yes I did FTP en route. Honestly when we did it she barely blinked an eye, and the most I got out of here was an indignant 'woof' a few times (I imagine she was thinking 'I'm going, I'm going!') I also did the nick when she was popping en route that helped clear things up a lot, but there was some funny stuff in between. She once ran and got to the apex and did this funny circle before continuing on and I am certain that was due to being nicked there.
> 
> I will try it, but can you give me an idea of what to expect? I've been patient and hesitant to do so when she's close to me. I am worried that it will make the bugging worse. Do I nick if she does not sit? If she is looking in the wrong direction? Sounds like it could be a lot :/
> 
> And to think I thought it would all be better once I got through FF!


I absolutely agree with Evan that her obedience and standards are lacking. The standing up thing I am a bit baffled with. I think that she bugs so bad with sitting that you think letting her stand makes her more "comfortable" and more likely to look out so you allow her to stand. IT ONLY GETS WORSE. Hold high standards.
I personally do not use a heeling stick regularly but would be more likely to use a pinch collar and a tab to pop her into a sit position.

Honestly from your description of FTP I think you NAGGED TO PILE not FORCED.
You should notice a decidedly more determined dog after FTP and you also would probably get some consequence behaviors to work through before FTP is complete. Again I ask, did the bugging show up after FTP work? 
The circle you mentioned at the apex is called spinning, it is a common reaction to force. I have never had a spinner and it can be a hard thing to get out of. If she's not doing it any more, that is good.

First I would work on basic obedience with her. Heel and sit in heel position. So you have built an expectation of what heel and sit means. 
When you line her up for the back pile, get her in heel position and tell her to SIT. If she is looking to the left or right, that is fine, try very briefly to focus her with finger snap or leg pat, as you would in wagon wheel, to get her to look straight. By this time it will probably be obvious that she is bugging. Take her by the collar tab gently in your left hand, your collar transmitter in your right, you are going to take THREE STEPS FORWARD with the dog, on the first step say HEEL on the second step say nothing but hold the continuous button for 1 second on a low intensity, the third step say heel again and immediately send her on BACK, regardless if she is actually looking at the pile or not. You may want to initially move way up so the pile is the obvious destination. It also will be a good idea to do this on a pile SEPARATE from your T pattern (work your kinks out here then take it to the T field).
Now a few things might happen. If you're lucky she will bolt for the back pile. She has had some FTP so this is an obvious response to collar stimulation in this instance (handler saying BACK). Most likely she will jump a few feet in front of you then spin around and look back, or get back in heel position, basically be confused. At this point quietly take her in heel position again, and repeat the above steps. Say SIT, very briefly try heel/here to get her to look forward, when she does not, repeat heel-nick-heel at a slightly higher intensity. Hopefully by the second or third correction she is looking AT THE PILE and you can send her as you would normally. 
ONLY use the collar when you are in motion -- heeling forward a few steps. The first few times, send her immediately after the correction so she gets that the correction means MOVE TO THE PILE. The looking forward is the dog's anticipation of this, a round about way to get the behavior you want.
Another thing you can do to break up this pattern a little bit is to send her remotely to the back pile every other time rather than from your side (sit her facing you then back cast). This will alleviate the stress but is a band-aid.
Best of luck.


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> I absolutely agree with Evan that her obedience and standards are lacking. The standing up thing I am a bit baffled with. I think that she bugs so bad with sitting that you think letting her stand makes her more "comfortable" and more likely to look out so you allow her to stand. IT ONLY GETS WORSE. Hold high standards.
> I personally do not use a heeling stick regularly but would be more likely to use a pinch collar and a tab to pop her into a sit position.
> 
> *Honestly from your description of FTP I think you NAGGED TO PILE not FORCED.*
> ...


Excellent insight, Anney. That was also my impresson. This looks like a dog that can do very nice work, but is currently being held back by some fundamental deficits. Those can be taken care of in a fairly short period, but that needs to be done ASAP.

GoldenSail, do you have a copy of Smartwork for Retrievers volume one or the book, SmartFetch? In them are deeper descriptions of the dynamics, along with the driving principles of force fetch. Also, on the send disc of the SmartFetch DVD you'll see a little Lab named "Bitsy" demonstrating how to start pattern blinds. Look at her demeanor when she's cued up for the pre-identified pile. That is only partially a result of her desire. It's amplified by her having been thoroughly forced.

In the words of the late pro Jim Kappes, "A properly forced dog shouldn't look forced". I agree. It's a great intensity, eagerness to go, and conviction...expectation to go any second that keeps their focus on their destination.

A bit later I'll have some follow up discussion regarding that 'standing up' business.

EvanG


----------



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Wow, Scout is a lovely girl. I loved watching her run. Thank you for posting this, it is helping me learn a lot from the discussions with Anney and Evan.

Anney, will you move to Oregon and be my training mentor?


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I have the SmartWorks Volume I book and I have borrowed SmartFetch from a friend but do not currently have my own copy. I can see what you mean about the standing and you are right. I let her get away with it because I was more interested in getting her to look out on the send than in making sure she is sitting. Same with the lower standards with obedience--I am so focused on the looking out aspect that I am taking less on the line. My bad...but hey she is my first dog and I am doing this all largely by myself so I think I should get some credit for that even if I have some more work to do! My next dog will be better I think (sorry Scout).


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Oh but I do have a question--how do you know when you've sufficiently forced to pile? I had no issues at that point in time with her looking out at the pile and going. So, how could I nick her if she wasn't doing anything wrong? I mean I did, and she kept going and after a few sessions figured it was good. Am I supposed to nick hard enough that she stops so that I can teach her that even with that pressure she must still go?

...and should I stop whistle sits for now? Fix the lines manner, then go back to whistle sits and fix the loopy behavior, and then go back to t-work?


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> I have the SmartWorks Volume I book and I have borrowed SmartFetch from a friend but do not currently have my own copy. I can see what you mean about the standing and you are right. I let her get away with it because I was more interested in getting her to look out on the send than in making sure she is sitting. Same with the lower standards with obedience--I am so focused on the looking out aspect that I am taking less on the line.


And that's what I meant by her learning to handle _you_. No one's learning curve starts at its peak!


GoldenSail said:


> My bad...but hey she is my first dog and I am doing this all largely by myself so I think I should get some credit for that even if I have some more work to do! My next dog will be better I think (sorry Scout).


You deserve credit, and for more than one thing. All your efforts deserve credit, especially those to become better as a trainer. You can see already the advantages of posting a video so those trying to help can actually see what's going on. That's a huge help. Scout may yet be an outstanding performer. You are taking care of fundamental issues right now before they have a chance to break down more advanced work.


GoldenSail said:


> Oh but I do have a question--how do you know when you've sufficiently forced to pile?


Great question! The answer is essentially the same as how you know when you're done with establishing any skill or skill set. Your dog won't become perfect. But it will become reliable. And you will see certain "reads", which I speak of constantly on video. You'll see your dog cuing up to go without being begged or commanded numerous times. You'll give the cue ("Dead Bird" for example) once, and see your dog look out eagerly expecting to go at any second - leaning forward ready to go...and still seated! A properly forced dog does not look up at the handler when preparing to run.


GoldenSail said:


> I had no issues at that point in time with her looking out at the pile and going. So, how could I nick her if she wasn't doing anything wrong?


Because we apply pressure via e-collar for more reasons than to correct. In this case we apply the nick to compel (force). That isn't done because they've done something wrong. It's done to formalize the standard, which exponentially increases their conviction to comply. That produces momentum. Remember from your Smartwork volume one that "momentum" and "style" are not the same things?


GoldenSail said:


> I mean I did, and she kept going and after a few sessions figured it was good. Am I supposed to nick hard enough that she stops so that I can teach her that even with that pressure she must still go?


No. You're supposed to nick at a level that she drives with even greater intensity. Again, that won't be style, although it will look like it. But it will, in this case, be avoidance. This type of purposeful avoidance is a good thing, and also an application that will provide tools for the future.


GoldenSail said:


> ...and should I stop whistle sits for now? Fix the lines manner, then go back to whistle sits and fix the loopy behavior, and then go back to t-work?


Yep! fix it in separate obedience sessions first.

EvanG


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks for the advice all working on fixing her now and hope to post an improved video in the future (if we are lucky, the near future).

I have become firmer and I am now standing straight up and don't mess with my dog trying to get her to look out. I've noticed improvements just by adjusting my posture and tone. Still not looking out but doing better by using the routine that Anney described--sending when she looks and if she does not heel forward with a low intensity. I've also given her low intensity if she looks and I told her 'back' and she did not go. I am now starting to see her more ready to go and quickly responding to 'back.' 

LOL, this field stuff is hard and a lot of work! Just when I think I've accomplished something that was difficult, something more difficult comes along!


----------



## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

Very impressive. You and Scout work great together. Great team.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Wow Scout is looking great! Yes I would firm up on her on the line like suggested, but I am impressed with what you have done with her! She's looking gorgeous too!


----------



## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Scout*

Wow!! Your Scout is a beauty!!


----------

