# Do you play tug with your field puppy?



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I tug with my dog and have had no problems with birds. Of course, tugging is usually a tug toy made of fabric not a bumper or bird.


----------



## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I'm not experienced enough to say much on this....

Tugging... IF you are good at training it/have good help, YES.... for people who have good training skills, the more your dog loves to tug, the better his out will be AND that out will typically transfer to other objects. 

What a talk last year made me think about.... I'll probably NOT give future puppies things to tear apart (stuffies, cardboard boxes, etc). That's a behavior that we don't want them to refine, love, and be very proficient at. 

And it seems controversial that I'm all for one and not the other.... but I'm very much for all the benefits of tugging for the training aspects... (good out, good enthusiasm, another retrieve variation, another reinforcer, self control, clean outs). Tearing things up doesn't have much in the way training components or benefits....even if the behavior is on cue.


----------



## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I think the dogs are smart enough, if trained, to know what to do when and where. My old dog knew enough that in flyball he ran back and spit the ball out to tug, would mouth his dumbell in scent hurdle to the point we had 3-4 for him instead of 2 because he'd go through the dowel, but in obedience he wouldn't mouth other than the odd adjusting the dumbell which I was ok with.

With his right finish, he knew in obedience it was to get into heel, but outside of obedience he would just go around me and keep going for the toy or whatever (VERY handy in agility with bad weave entrances to have him do that loop and then hit the poles head on).

I've heard of field people not feeding their dogs duck, but again have not had that issue. They make the difference between an intact duck in the field to fetch and their meal in a bowl. Just as many kibble fed dogs will shred up a duck if that's their thing.


----------



## greg (Apr 22, 2011)

no.. my dog hunts and competes in field trials/hunt tests. I cannot say with absolute certainy that tug would transfer to birds/bumpers, but I play it safe and that is one activity my dog is not allowed..


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Oh good lord yes. Slater's favorite activity next to fetch is TUG. He is a very aggressive tugger. He also has a very good OUT. It's very black and white to the dog.
I think sticking on birds is more genetic/congenital than taught.


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Oh I so agree with this. My dogs love tug and I purposefully train it; it was a missing piece for their agility and obedience work. 

It has not transfered to birds or indeed any items that are not presented with their cue to play. Their outs are very good too 





K9-Design said:


> Oh good lord yes. Slater's favorite activity next to fetch is TUG. He is a very aggressive tugger. He also has a very good OUT. It's very black and white to the dog.
> I think sticking on birds is more genetic/congenital than taught.


----------



## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

We are teaching Gabby to tug, for agility. She is learning to like it. 

When I was at the Bridget Carlsen seminar, she was actually tugging with her dogs with a bumper. She said "don't tell my parents" LOL However she said never once, has it transferred to the bird. What she does, is have the dog return give her the bumper, when she releases the dog THEN she plays with the bumper and the dog it is handy. 

Quinn also loves tug for agility does not tug on a bumper or bird, and she is a pup still.


----------



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Maxs Mom said:


> We are teaching Gabby to tug, for agility. She is learning to like it.
> 
> When I was at the Bridget Carlsen seminar, she was actually tugging with her dogs with a bumper. She said "don't tell my parents" LOL However she said never once, has it transferred to the bird. What she does, is have the dog return give her the bumper, when she releases the dog THEN she plays with the bumper and the dog it is handy.
> 
> Quinn also loves tug for agility does not tug on a bumper or bird, and she is a pup still.


LOVE Bridget, going to see her again in June. 

Have you seen the Janice Demello DVD? She made a very simple tug toy out of a rope and tape. She frays the ends and puts squeeze cheese in the middle of the freyed part to encourage tugging.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sunrise said:


> Oh I so agree with this. My dogs love tug and I purposefully train it; it was a missing piece for their agility and obedience work.
> 
> It has not transfered to birds or indeed any items that are not presented with their cue to play. Their outs are very good too


I didn't vote because I'm clueless about field. :

I know people who play tug between exercises at class... and one thing I wondered a little is if pulling a tug toy out between exercises would stop my guy from getting worked up and grabbing at my pant legs in between exercises? Or if it would make matters worse? 

When I release him I let him zoomie and do a quick play wrestle with him. And suspect the play wrestle is the culprit. Because in the dog's brain I'm grabbing and mouthing on him. :doh: 

Over all though, as far as playing tug with puppies - I wouldn't do it. We played tug games with our first two goldens and it taught them to clamp down. And when you have a young muleheaded dog (Sammy), they don't know the difference between play and work. Or pretend they don't.


----------



## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

DNL2448 said:


> LOVE Bridget, going to see her again in June.
> 
> Have you seen the Janice Demello DVD? She made a very simple tug toy out of a rope and tape. She frays the ends and puts squeeze cheese in the middle of the freyed part to encourage tugging.


We bought a COOL tug toy at Nationals. It has a bungee, a bag for treats, and a ball on the end. Gabby likes it so far, it's just keeping her engaged on the tugging. I thought about working on her with it this week, since she can't "do" much, then realized oh tugging and a potentially sore neck was not a good plan. 

No I have not see that DVD... Should take a looksie for it. I was taught a couple dogs ago, "tugging is bad". So I have not done it. Old dog (me) new tricks. Dogs enjoy it so I need to make it part of our daily games. I just get lazy.


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Just have to say--I think tugging is such a great fun and motivational way to train your dog. It's interactive, and you don't have to use food!


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I had no ideas of doing field with Tito until he turned 3, so I always played tug with him, let him chew on tennis balls, etc.
It has absolutely NOT transferred into any problems in field. 
Dogs are smarter than we sometimes give them credit for. If my dog can't tell a bird from a tennis ball, he doesn't deserve to be called a golden retriever.....


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Dogs are smarter than we sometimes give them credit for. If my dog can't tell a bird from a tennis ball, he doesn't deserve to be called a golden retriever.....


You mean he doesn't come back with the bird and do a "throw it again" happy dance for you?


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

You need a "No, but not for these reasons" option. I do not play tug with my dogs because it is not a game I enjoy. I do not do agility, nor do I do high level obedience so I have no reason to get them up and raring to go in that way. Field and hunting are my primary things, and then conformation. Birds in the field get them appropriately up in that context. 

Now, they do play tug with each other!


----------



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

The very first game of tug I ever played with Quiz was at the airport when I picked him up at 8 wks! It's one of my favorite early memories with him. 

We only did a little field work (just the JH), but I never had problems with him tugging on birds. He also doesn't redirect to my pant legs, nor does he think anything I touch that's in his mouth is up for grabs for a game of tug.

I think it's about setting clear, consistent criteria.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

The first night I was in the hotel room with baby Flip in CT I pulled out the little tug toy and taught him his first tug session. I was determined this dog would play tug with anything any time. We play tug with everything...toys, dumbbell, articles, leash, bumpers. There are only two things that I will not let him play with and those are birds and gloves. My other dogs are allowed to play with gloves but I decided not to let Flip play with them because he already loves to play with them so much. Technically he should be able to tell the difference between when he is allowed to play with them and when he is not, but I do not have enough faith in myself as a trainer for that so we don't play with the gloves. I have not had any trouble caused by all the other things I let him tug with.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> The very first game of tug I ever played with Quiz was at the airport when I picked him up at 8 wks! It's one of my favorite early memories with him.


Ha, I guess we were thinking the exact same things with our pups, I was typing my post before you posted yours!


----------



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I think it's about setting clear, consistent criteria.


Exactly what I was thinking. Actually I came up with this poll when I was surfing on a totally different subject, and found a fairly well known field trainer and that was one of their "rules" for training retrievers-never play tug with your dog. I have always played tug with my dogs as it was something I could do (between exercises) in obedience to help relieve stress in the ring.

Now I am off to the store to buy material to make a couple "slap sticks" and start playing tug with my new pup! 

For those who may or may not know Netflix, you have to check out Bow Wow Flix! It is the Netflix for dog people. I am now renting several DVDs I have wanted to purchase but could not justify the expense right now. LOVE IT!


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

DNL2448 said:


> Exactly what I was thinking. Actually I came up with this poll when I was surfing on a totally different subject, and found a fairly well known field trainer and that was one of their "rules" for training retrievers-never play tug with your dog. I have always played tug with my dogs as it was something I could do (between exercises) in obedience to help relieve stress in the ring.


I can understand the admonishment to some extent as I have seen it backfire on people. Not so much in making the dogs sticky on birds, but in the sense of making an already high dog even higher in a context where that just doesn't work. The trainer who is going to play tug and do serious field work does have to set those clear, consistent boundaries a few of you have mentioned. 

This individual was constantly complaining about how wild her dog was and what a hard time she had controlling her in the holding blinds. Then I caught her playing tug with her in the holding blind at a picnic trial. So instead of getting calm and focused she was getting higher and higher and was just wild by the time it was her turn, and then she was not steady!


----------



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

sterregold said:


> This individual was constantly complaining about how wild her dog was and what a hard time she had controlling her in the holding blinds. Then I caught her playing tug with her in the holding blind at a picnic trial. So instead of getting calm and focused she was getting higher and higher and was just wild by the time it was her turn, and then she was not steady!


I could see this if used inappropriatly and with someone who does not understand dog training. Good point.


----------



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Loisiana said:


> Ha, I guess we were thinking the exact same things with our pups, I was typing my post before you posted yours!


Indeed! And at his first vet visit, we sat in the exam room and played "retrieve my car keys" while waiting for the vet to come in! Tug anything and retrieve anything were important goals for us.


----------



## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I don't do much field, but the dogs do pick up birds on occasion. Both of my dogs play tug. I cannot imagine that tugging would be the sole cause a bad mouth with a bird, my thinking is: Barley was my first dog I bought into the "you cannot play tug because it will make your dog aggressive" thing. So he did not ever play tug until we started agility training, he was probably 2 at the time. Then when I did play tug I did not know enough to teach him the "rules" of tug. He is bad, when excited he grabs at things and does not let them go. In agility I battle with him at the startline trying to get his leash out of his mouth. But we still tug and he LOVES it. THAT SAID I brought him out to try some field work at 4 years old. He never had a problem going out, picking it up, bringing it back and giving it to me. Never once has he tugged or hardmouthed a bird. So with all of the bad tugging habits that he has, he still has a nice soft mouth with birds, even live flapping ones.


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Just to refresh: the question is "*Do you play tug with your field puppy?*"

My reply is "No", and I generally advise my students not to either. This is a field pup we're asking about. If it's a good one it's likely to have enough prey drive that this game will promote sticking on birds, and some behaviors far worse. I've seen it so much in my 35+ years of training retrievers of all breeds for fieldwork I don't believe it's worthy of the risks for the marginal benefits gained.

Can you? Sure. Can you, and get away with it? Yes, it happens often enough to convince the owners they're doing something right. But being _smart_ and being _lucky_ are not the same things! Whatever on earth you think you're gaining is not worth the potential risks. Why?

Having been a pro, I was brought quite a few such young dogs that had begun sticking on birds, shredding birds, and a host of other related issues that the owners had unwittingly caused. Now it's up to the pro to solve this mess, and it's a much tougher one to solve than it was to cause.

Choose wisely. You've been given advice pro & con. Weigh the risks against the perceived potential gain. Good luck.

EvanG


----------

