# Low Entries?



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Majors are a hunt usually. You may end up like me making entries at 10 shows or more before you finally hit a major and then it is so disappointing when someone doesn't show and the major breaks. 
Specialties are usually majors, though bummer for you!


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I'm not a conformation person, however, I will say that at my house, money has been holding me back from Ellie's JH title - it will take close to $500 per weekend for two weekends to do it. Between birthdays and healthcare expenses, (we are a family of 5 with one in college) I'm now thinking I will need to split it up between November and March. And I will feel a little guilty about spending the money. 

I know it can be very expensive to finish a dog in the conformation ring, it doesn't surprise me that numbers would be down, I don't know how regular people manage to do it. I suspect it's not your imagination that entries are down, I wonder a lot about when the vilification of breeders and pure bred fanciers in general society will begin to start corresponding to fewer and fewer people involved with dog shows. 

Have you tried looking on infodog for previous entries? I think I remember being able to look at the previous years' numbers on there when looking up shows.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

When I was showing Tito around 7 years ago that wasn't the case. Golden entries were huge. There were 145 Goldens entered in our first show. It took, I think, 24 dogs for a 3 point major. There were quite a few majors around.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Prism Goldens said:


> Specialties are usually majors, though bummer for you!


That's what I would have thought-- I am pretty shocked, esp. given the breed.



nolefan said:


> I know it can be very expensive to finish a dog in the conformation ring, it doesn't surprise me that numbers would be down, I don't know how regular people manage to do it. I suspect it's not your imagination that entries are down, I wonder a lot about when the vilification of breeders and pure bred fanciers in general society will begin to start corresponding to fewer and fewer people involved with dog shows.
> 
> Have you tried looking on infodog for previous entries? I think I remember being able to look at the previous years' numbers on there when looking up shows.


Thank you for the suggestion to look on Infodog-- turns out there is an article right on the front page addressing this very issue: Just the Facts. The section comparing the # of dogs needed for a major was really eye-opening.

I am right there with you re: the money. I suspect this is true for many. An article I read said that salaries are either the same or lower than they were in 2000! We are also a large family (7) with the oldest 2 yrs from college, but even just the day-to-day expenses add up so quickly. The only way I am justifying the expenses is that this is my daughter's interest, and in 2 more years, she can pay for things herself. In fact, she's thinking of taking a gap year for several reasons, one of them being she wants to get more experience as a handler. 



hotel4dogs said:


> When I was showing Tito around 7 years ago that wasn't the case. Golden entries were huge. There were 145 Goldens entered in our first show. It took, I think, 24 dogs for a 3 point major. There were quite a few majors around.


Incredible! I read elsewhere that when breed popularity changes, it is reflected in the number of dogs attending shows, but according to that article I linked above, it seems to be pretty uniform/across the board.

I don't know what would make this more enticing to people. I do think if they allowed Jrs to show a dog they didn't own, that would help bring in new interest. But time and money will always be factors that I don't think are easily overcome.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Anele said:


> .. An article I read said that salaries are either the same or lower than they were in 2000! We are also a large family (7) with the oldest 2 yrs from college, but even just the day-to-day expenses add up so quickly......


Oh Bless you, family of 7... how do you even dig out from under the laundry to be on this forum????? 

I can't even talk about college. I feel nauseous as it is....

Your stat about salaries not being too different since 2000 doesn't surprise me at all. I don't feel like we are any farther ahead than we were 10 or 15 years ago to be honest.... sigh.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

nolefan said:


> Oh Bless you, family of 7... how do you even dig out from under the laundry to be on this forum?????
> 
> I can't even talk about college. I feel nauseous as it is....
> 
> Your stat about salaries not being too different since 2000 doesn't surprise me at all. I don't feel like we are any farther ahead than we were 10 or 15 years ago to be honest.... sigh.


Ha about the laundry! Thankfully, my husband does it! My cleaning technique revolves around "get rid of anything extra." So satisfying to throw/give things away and know I will never have to clean it again!

And yes, college... my niece was valedictorian, did unusual/important work as a volunteer for years (in juvenile detention centers, among other places), has the Seal of Biliteracy meaning she's recognized as officially bilingual, took every AP course possible, did great on her standardized tests, is just an amazing person... and she got ZERO full scholarships. Oh, and she comes from a family of NINE.

I have long planned that my children will attend community college first to really figure out what they want. My niece decided this was the right route for her too and she loves it. She's meeting many other students who did well in some of the top Chicago high schools (which are also some of the top in the nation) who are also in community college because of lack of scholarships. The state of higher education in our country is horrible. My daughter is considering going abroad after community college where it is much cheaper!

And nope... salaries aren't going up... but everything else is sky-rocketing!!!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

If a Junior is talented, it is easy to get someone to put her name on the dog. 
When Maxie wanted to be ranked in the top 10 w a breed in each group, we 'borrowed' dogs-they mostly came and lived w us while she was showing them, and what the owner got in return was her handling in the regular classes, and I usually paid for those entries, except for the ShihTzu whose owner paid for the three shows it took for Maxie to be #1 ShihTzu junior. The big plus for her (Maxie) was she learned to groom all those different breeds, and she learned so much through the various breeds, plus she learned to deal w owners.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Prism Goldens said:


> If a Junior is talented, it is easy to get someone to put her name on the dog.


I'm thinking more along the lines of children/teens who are entirely new to the sport. In the case of your daughter-- you are a well-known breeder, and your daughter had access to the show world/experience/grew up with dogs. Much easier to make connections. If the sport is going to grow, likely it will have to bring in people who have no family ties or experience in conformation, like my daughter.


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## Altairss (Sep 7, 2012)

Where I live it seems like the shows end up stacked on the same weekends so entries get split or they are stacked one right after another for 3-4 weekends then nothing for six to eight weeks. Money is tight so I have to try and carefully pick where I am going and how often sometimes like next month there are four shows I would love to go to. I can afford to go to two as they are close. One weekend I had to pick which of two shows to go to as they are both the same weekend that's been happening a bit more. One is much closer and I can drive back and forth no hotel or RV needed. Both shows are normally well attended so now the entries are split and the numbers look low at both. I have a friend actively campaigning her two dogs but she too is finding either its a bunch of shows close together or none for several weeks.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

I agree! It really does seem like numbers are a lot lower recently. I blamed a lot of it on the recent flu outbreak. NRG is our huge show in Houston in July and this year dogs missed majors by one which is unheard of--usually it's 4 or 5 point majors. We just had back to back specialties in Austin--first set missed in both dogs and bitches, this one missed in dogs but we'll have the crossover (over by 1) in bitches if everyone shows up.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

I hadn't thought about the flu outbreak, Christen113... that's crazy about your huge show. 

My daughter mentioned that movies/books from the 50's/60's talked about dog shows (_The Ugly Dachshund_, _Big Red_, _Lassie_) but we don't see that anymore except for _Best in Show_. 

I used to go to the IKC show at McCormick Place in Chicago just as a spectator-- not with any intention of showing. Hard to believe it's no longer held there. Used to be like our Chicago Westminster. We have at least one that has a "meet the breeds" option but sadly, the general population doesn't really attend anyway.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Anele said:


> I'm thinking more along the lines of children/teens who are entirely new to the sport. In the case of your daughter-- you are a well-known breeder, and your daughter had access to the show world/experience/grew up with dogs. Much easier to make connections. If the sport is going to grow, likely it will have to bring in people who have no family ties or experience in conformation, like my daughter.


I used to teach Juniors- kids often started classes with their family pet- but by the time they were out of Novice class (so three wins w competition) if they had not found a dog, I found them one. One of my kids had a ranked Beagle, another a ranked PBGB, one an almost finished Gordon Setter, several others that I found for them- so try hard to get to shows, and take some Juniors classes if she can- or find a mentor near enough that you trust to take her along to shows (tell her to be useful to the person taking her...omg the stories I could tell about some kids lol!!) and she'll get a nice dog to work with who will help her achieve her goals. All the kids I mentioned earlier did not have a person in dogs, but did have an involved parent who was willing to ultimately be responsible for the borrowed dog.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Prism Goldens said:


> I used to teach Juniors- kids often started classes with their family pet- but by the time they were out of Novice class (so three wins w competition) if they had not found a dog, I found them one. One of my kids had a ranked Beagle, another a ranked PBGB, one an almost finished Gordon Setter, several others that I found for them- so try hard to get to shows, and take some Juniors classes if she can- or find a mentor near enough that you trust to take her along to shows (tell her to be useful to the person taking her...omg the stories I could tell about some kids lol!!) and she'll get a nice dog to work with who will help her achieve her goals. All the kids I mentioned earlier did not have a person in dogs, but did have an involved parent who was willing to ultimately be responsible for the borrowed dog.


Oh my goodness-- this is so wonderful. Those kids were really lucky to have you! I haven't seen anything locally specifically for Jrs., but it would be a fantastic option if it were to happen.

I think the tricky part is the involved parent. My daughter has a friend who wants to do this, but her dad is a widower and doesn't even want to let her get a fish. But maybe there is still a way she can pair up with a mentor. 

My daughter wants to work with rare breeds in addition to Goldens, so at some point she can take time off from showing our dogs and like you said, focus on working for someone else. We have a local Glen of Imaal breeder who does very well in the ring; maybe she would be open to taking her on as an apprentice.

Thank you for the great advice!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I do think there has been a downturn in dog sports involvement by people.... I think part of that unfortunately was going to happen and you could tell it was going to happen back in the early 2000's, even when stuff still "appeared" to be OK.

When I was little, my dad used to pack all of us kids into the car and take us to the big Detroit Kennel Club show at the Coba (that was easier when we were kids and there was a price break for kids under 12. As we got older, it was too expensive to pay for tickets for all us kids + my parents - think like $150 for all of us). And I remember the good old days when we'd walk down the golden retriever aisles and see a ton of goldens. In fact, somewhere packed away, I have an old DKC catalog from the 90's with all of the golden retrievers entered.

A lot of those breeders and names behind the dogs entered in the shows back then have since moved away or partially or completely retired. Not naming names, but a good chunk of local big name breeders (peoples whose dogs are behind both obedience and conformation pedigrees locally) have since retired or dropped conformation completely. Or they've passed away with no family to continue what they loved doing...  

One of MY mentors passed away and while her husband and somebody else will likely continue the breeding program, he is not as interested in the conformation and obedience end as his wife was.... 

One of the last Cobo (DKC) shows I attended with my dad. There were only 2-3 golden breeders there. The show wasn't even close to being a major. That's participation by breeders/owners

You've also had a progression of over-protectiveness and I hate to say this... elitist attitudes (especially among the new generation of show breeders). Literally people who basically expect people to pay their dues before they earn a show registered puppy from them. People who absolutely cut their noses off to spite their faces when they literally state they will not sell show puppies to anyone but their friends. <= I'm friends with a lot of people who are NOT like this, but from a distance you have the perspective that you have to be in the in-crowd in order to get a show puppy. 

And or people literally raising prices and essentially implying you have to be well-off or upper class in order to get a puppy from them. ! And I hate to say this, but a lot of people who are the most diehard dog people and doing stuff are NOT upper class. One friend of mine who is working her way towards getting an OTCH with her dog... is a single mom who works during the week at one place and works weekends at another place. 

Oh heck, I'm not rich either. And I mentally struggle with the idea that my next puppy might cost close to $3000. If you had more guarantees, it might be worth it. But it's really scary thinking of spending that much money on a puppy and facing the possibilities that teeth might not come in right, or teeth might be missing, the dog might not get all clearances, or who knows... that's not even accounting for the fears others have about early cancer. 

Types of people who are upper class right now are people who are struggling to find time away from work for their families. Literally, today's middle-class peeps are people who both work up to 12 hours (or more a day). They not have leisure time to spend on going to dog training classes in the evenings... and weekends are family time for them. 

My own sister has a puppy and she will absolutely get a CD with him with no problem. The bigger issue is her finding the time to get to fun matches in the evenings and dog events on weekends. Her time is limited because she works close to full time + wants to make the most of what time she has left with her teenaged daughter. Like a lot of moms who are getting kinda close to becoming empty-nesters, she doesn't want to waste a moment.

Other issue is public perception of dog shows... and treatment of the public by participants. 

Again, when I started competing in obedience as a teenager. I remember one of the big shows locally here in MI, the crowds outside the rings were so thick that you were squeezing through and couldn't always see what was going on in the ring. This included even the obedience rings. It was super crowded. And that was a pretty big facility with huge aisles, huge rings, and just a LOT of space. This show site was normally as big locally as the Detroit show. 

Fast forward to today. That big expo center is no longer there. It's gone. The dog shows have since moved to a much smaller facility. All the shows at this place are smaller and it is a struggle for the clubs to make money there. Because they are not drawing the huge entries, they aren't drawing all the huge vendors, and they are not drawing the huge crowds as much. 

Then in obedience classes - you have more and more instructors who themselves do NOTHING besides teaching. They are not mentors who can guide people into the dog exhibitor world the same way the early instructors that I had were.

Back in the 90's and early 2000's, my instructors were telling everyone to enter their puppies in the puppy classes at conformation shows as part of the needed socialization and exposure to dog shows that the pups would need in the formative years...

Fast forward to today - instructors are telling people to take their puppies to hardware and clothing stores (!) as socialization. With no mention of doing dog shows or obedience trials with these puppies. 

There is no recognition or encouragement by these instructors, many of whom have no experience entering dog shows or obedience trials themselves. These people have had it in their heads that dogs are abused and mistreated at conformation shows and obedience trials are "not fun" for either owners or dogs - so they literally discourage people from going those routes. 

And then people in dog shows again discourage newbies from getting into the sports. They either tell people you have to spend 15-50K on getting a championship on a dog as a way of scaring them off or they directly mistreat people who approach them. I've caught more than one person scolding children who have approached their dogs behind their backs at dog shows. On one hand it's really scary to have strangers approach your dogs without your permission, but on the other hand - ripping into children and both embarrassing and threatening them is horrific. Some kids are resilient, but I think if I were a kid in the same position - I would not want to have anything to do with dog shows ever again.

Basically both obedience instructors (and clubs, including club members who play politics and stick hatchets into the backs of other club members who are hearts and souls of the clubs and did and do a lot more to motivate and promote than the newest members and fad promoters) and breeders are both failing to mentor and inspire the last 15-20 years. This has been a long time coming and it's going to continue unless we all turn the bus around as far as recognizing where the future of dog sports is. That's going to come from dog owning families, training clubs, and improving public perception of everything that goes into all of the different sports, shows, and even breeding. 

You have a lot of people turning to agility and dock jumping and other similar sports not just because of publicity and ease of titling in these sports, but also because their instructors are involved with these sports and promote them.

^^^^ Long rant, but there was a conversation elsewhere which was insane from the amount of denial coming from some people refusing to recognize real problems in their sport while promoting stuff that would basically stick more daggers into the heart of the sport! :surprise:


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Um....I beg your pardon, not all agility titles are easy to get....


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> Um....I beg your pardon, not all agility titles are easy to get....


Do you have to wait until your dog is 3-4 years old before you can start entering trials????????? That's what I meant by "ease".

You see some people shut down a bit when you tell them they have to train 2-3 years, thoroughly proof their dogs, wean off a lot of stuff, and also wait for their dogs to grow up before entering the first ob trial.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

NoWe found the obedience titles easier. Ring ready at 6 months. Didn't enter because not old enough to jump in open and Utility. UDX at 3 years old (my first obed dog). UDX in 15 attempts, from CD to UDX in just over a year.
I don't think you can make categorical statements about the different sports. Depends on the dog.
ETA-- and maybe it's partially those "horror stories" and scare tactics scaring people away from obedience. I knew lots and lots of dogs, of all breeds, ready to trial in obedience by 15-18 months. You can't enter agility trial until 15 months because the dog has to be physically mature.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Jumping in for agility -- if you wait the recommended 18-24 months to begin heavy jumping work it can easily take upwards to 3 years of training before hitting the rings (if only groundwork is done with the youngsters) -- the AKC agility courses of today are harder on a golden's structure than of yesteryear and require a LOT of jumpwork and body awareness training to safely navigate. 

But the cost of trials is becoming an issue in my area what will stagnant salaries and other responsibilities. Like it of not, economics play in to the affordability of people showing their dogs.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Totally agree about the costs!!!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> NoWe found the obedience titles easier. Ring ready at 6 months. Didn't enter because not old enough to jump in open and Utility. UDX at 3 years old (my first obed dog). UDX in 15 attempts, from CD to UDX in just over a year.
> I don't think you can make categorical statements about the different sports. Depends on the dog.
> ETA-- and maybe it's partially those "horror stories" and scare tactics scaring people away from obedience. I knew lots and lots of dogs, of all breeds, ready to trial in obedience by 15-18 months. You can't enter agility trial until 15 months because the dog has to be physically mature.


One could make categorical statements on the newer venues- such as Dock Diving or BarnHunting or Lure Coursing- none of which are really GR sports. But agility can take a really long time to get ready for too, as can obedience or any of them really depending on your level of intent to achieve in the venue. I tend to knock out a CD in the 6-9 mo period and then wait = sometimes a couple years- to get higher in obedience. But I've never been encouraged to take a 6 mo old in the ring in agility or obedience either one....


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

Prism Goldens said:


> One could make categorical statements on the newer venues- such as Dock Diving or BarnHunting- neither of which are really GR sports. But agility can take a really long time to get ready for too, as can obedience or any of them really depending on your level of intent to achieve in the venue. I tend to knock out a CD in the 6-9 mo period and then wait = sometimes a couple years- to get higher in obedience. But I've never been encouraged to take a 6 mo old in the ring in agility or obedience either one....


I've got a 13 month old that could probably qualify in novice, but won't hit the ring till he is at least 2 or maybe even closer to 3. I want to know that he is able to give me the focused heeling I want, and we are very far away from that right now. He might be ready for agility by two, but who knows if I will be able to handle him. He is is very quick and very much a puppy yet, needs a whole lot more mental maturity. For now we will go to classes, practice practice practice and play in Nosework, getting him out competing in that sport for now I think will help him become comfortable and settled. And it is a blast.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I think entries are starting to come up a bit -- it hit a low a few years ago. You can tell by the point scales. Like Barb, when I was showing Fisher it was 24 dogs for a 3 point major. Now it's closer to 18-19, I don't even know what the point scale is these days. I will say, I think the quality of entry has gone UP. People are being more selective about when, where and WHAT they show -- which is good for the breed. They are less likely to enter under judges who just put up faces. They don't just pull dogs off the couch and put them in the ring. We see overall higher quality dogs in the ring I think.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> NoWe found the obedience titles easier. Ring ready at 6 months. Didn't enter because not old enough to jump in open and Utility. UDX at 3 years old (my first obed dog). UDX in 15 attempts, from CD to UDX in just over a year.
> I don't think you can make categorical statements about the different sports. Depends on the dog.
> ETA-- and maybe it's partially those "horror stories" and scare tactics scaring people away from obedience. I knew lots and lots of dogs, of all breeds, ready to trial in obedience by 15-18 months. You can't enter agility trial until 15 months because the dog has to be physically mature.


Barb, I mainly can only speak about what I can see around here. We have a pretty active community and I usually volunteer as most fun matches and regularly attend practice classes... so I see and listen to what people say or do with their own dogs. For that matter, I train with people who have gotten OTCH's on their dogs. I've also sat down and talked to people who have among the highest ranked dogs in the obedience. And a lot of them are waiting for dogs to mentally grow up before starting obedience careers. There's a lot of time to train the dogs from novice through utility. 

For that matter, just last year, I sat outside the obedience ring and watched every other BN novice dog (both A's and B's) NQ because of them running out of the ring to interact with people and dogs outside the ring. 

Many people enter dogs in BN because there is no off leash heeling and their very young dogs are not ready to be offleash. It's not ideal for long term stuff because hey, their dogs are learning how to run out of the ring. That's going to be a fun thing to stop when the dogs grow up and are offleash a good portion of the time inside the ring. 

I don't personally view the length of time (waiting for them to mentally grow up) as a negative or "Scare tactic".

A lot of people do CGC's with puppies because it's a very quick "title". And they then jump into agility.


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## forgop (May 26, 2015)

I picked up Toby yesterday in Valpo, where he didn't even show because the only majors to be had in bitches broke. It seems entries have been down at several places around the midwest. I was talking with the handler and an owner there and one of the bigger complaints was the less than desirable judging panels. Not just on a single day, but even a full weekend. I need just one major to finish him and I'm being very selective of where he's entered because it seems there have been several shows since the summer in our area where I would have wasted my time with every 4 day weekend because the judges have been terrible for my style of dog. When you know certain other dogs will be there and your dog will have no chance, you're throwing away time and money by going, so it's better to not even go. 

I just have to wonder if these clubs keep close tabs on numbers from year to year and watch for big increases/declines in entries so they will know what judges to invite back and what judges to never bring back. I know every judge isn't going to appeal to everyone and it's a rather imperfect system, but if a lot of handlers/owners don't want to show to you, don't bring them back.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Good point  Although I show primarily in Obedience, there is one judge I will not show to -- if I cannot figure out what a judge is looking for/scoring down on and/or he/she does not get the placements right, he/she loses my entry.

And that 1 judge is judging several days in a row coming up in my area -- therefor, my dogs will not be showing. I am sure the same thing happens in conformation although perhaps different things factor into the decision not to show to.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

No no, waiting for them to grow up mentally isn't a scare tactic.
Telling all owners that their puppies won't be ring ready for 2-3 years because they will need to grow up mentally, however, could be construed as such.
Again, it depends on the dog. We see TONS of dogs in this area around 12-18 months showing very, very successfully in obedience. And others waiting to grow up mentally!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

forgop said:


> I just have to wonder if these clubs keep close tabs on numbers from year to year and watch for big increases/declines in entries so they will know what judges to invite back and what judges to never bring back. I know every judge isn't going to appeal to everyone and it's a rather imperfect system, but if a lot of handlers/owners don't want to show to you, don't bring them back.


You know... the one time I complained to AKC and the club about a judge (who did not draw other golden people and showing to this guy I saw why).... 

I basically realized the decision to have this judge had NOTHING to do with golden retrievers. 

There was this different breed who REALLY wanted this judge because he's pretty big in their breed. So to save money and make ends meet, they had him judge all the breeds where they could make him "fit", this despite the guy CLEARLY not knowing a thing about judging golden retrievers.... :surprise:

Basically, I think clubs are saving money and bringing in judges who other sporting breeds want.... 

Or they are hiring locals to save money.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yeah, never show a Golden to a terrier judge. They have a really strange idea of proper movement!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> Yeah, never show a Golden to a terrier judge. They have a really strange idea of proper movement!


First, the judge I was referring to was definitely a sporting breed judge. Specialized in one sporting breed.

But I'm thinking I know which terrier judges you are referring to.... :grin2:

My first ever time in the ring was showing to the wife. Whatever politics might be around her and her husband, I did find that she was very gentle with him and was chirping to him while she went over him and did not hold him leaping and bouncing against him. We got in the placements despite that. 

Would I show to her or her husband again? Maybe. I don't know. I think you always show to somebody at least once or twice before putting them on a do-not-show list. 

Some people I showed to twice and would never again. And this included some golden favorites.... :surprise: A friend's commentary on some of these judges, she would show a dog to them at a small show, but NOT at a big show. Apparently their personalities change based on venue.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Yeah, never show a Golden to a terrier judge. They have a really strange idea of proper movement!


Peggy Beisel-McIllwane a very good golden judge strongly favors good movers, moderate and athletic.
Original breed is something extremely terrier I want to say Scotties????

I wouldn't generalize about that...

Most small shows have to cut corners and that usually means hiring all-breed judges who can judge several groups. There are good judges like this and bad judges like this. The more you show the more you learn.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Agree about not generalizing judges.
We had the most success at the biggest shows, however. The judging tended to be more consistent.


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

Megora said:


> You've also had a progression of over-protectiveness and I hate to say this... elitist attitudes (especially among the new generation of show breeders). Literally people who basically expect people to pay their dues before they earn a show registered puppy from them. People who absolutely cut their noses off to spite their faces when they literally state they will not sell show puppies to anyone but their friends. <= I'm friends with a lot of people who are NOT like this, but from a distance you have the perspective that you have to be in the in-crowd in order to get a show puppy.
> 
> And or people literally raising prices and essentially implying you have to be well-off or upper class in order to get a puppy from them. ! And I hate to say this, but a lot of people who are the most diehard dog people and doing stuff are NOT upper class. One friend of mine who is working her way towards getting an OTCH with her dog... is a single mom who works during the week at one place and works weekends at another place.
> 
> Oh heck, I'm not rich either. And I mentally struggle with the idea that my next puppy might cost close to $3000. If you had more guarantees, it might be worth it. But it's really scary thinking of spending that much money on a puppy and facing the possibilities that teeth might not come in right, or teeth might be missing, the dog might not get all clearances, or who knows... that's not even accounting for the fears others have about early cancer.


I think you are spot on with this. As someone who has never been in the conformation world, and my family has never been in the conformation world; I see it as nearly impossible for an outsider to enter. Back before my son was born when I first got married, I looked into getting a dog for conformation. I email at least a dozen breeders, never heard back from some, was told they don't sell show dogs to unknowns by others, and I had ONE breeder say she'd sell me a show dog with a co-ownership and at a higher price. Very discouraging and it was at that point I sort of decided, well, there is no way I can do this until I'm retired! Or at least until we're done having kids and they're all grown up and settled.

I did show my current golden in obedience to her CD title. That was easy-3 shows, 3 different weekends, not overly pricey. Its helpful (for my financial state) that I never took her to any training classes as I knew how to train her for that and what was expected from my 4-H years. Now if I wanted to go for the CDX, I would probably have to do training classes simply because I don't have or know where to buy the jumps. For UD and UDX titles, I would need classes because I don't know how to train or what to expect. (4-H only went up to the CDX level).

Also, back to conformation, the politics of it! I know a girl whose family shows and breeds Tollers. (In fact, their bitch was the BOB at Westminster a few years ago). She told me that if I wanted to get into conformation I should choose a less popular breed because its impossible for a newbie to title a golden (I want to be the one doing the showing and handling-I can't afford a handler anyway). She also said its so political that she once was helping a newbie in the Toller world and pointed out to her the dog that SHOULD win the class and the dog that WOULD win the class based on who the handler was (and she was right, btw). I think that's ridiculous! Judges need to judge the DOG, not who is handling them or who owns them or whatever. But, I'm in the horse world and its the same thing there-this is an exaggeration but-so long as you have the big name trainer or the big name barn your horse can buck you off and you'll still win the class! Things like that turn off would be newbies from showing.

Anyway, this is just the perspective of someone who would love to show, but I don't for those reasons. Well, plus I have a toddler, lol.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Altairss said:


> Where I live it seems like the shows end up stacked on the same weekends so entries get split or they are stacked one right after another for 3-4 weekends then nothing for six to eight weeks. Money is tight so I have to try and carefully pick where I am going and how often sometimes like next month there are four shows I would love to go to. I can afford to go to two as they are close.


 The money is a huge factor-- in every aspect. We have spent our first yr getting to know the different venues; like you, we are far more apt to go if they are within driving distance. There are a few that we like enough to stay overnight for, but since this adds a lot to the expense, we have to be very selective.



Goldens&Friesians said:


> I think you are spot on with this. As someone who has never been in the conformation world, and my family has never been in the conformation world; I see it as nearly impossible for an outsider to enter. Back before my son was born when I first got married, I looked into getting a dog for conformation. I email at least a dozen breeders, never heard back from some, was told they don't sell show dogs to unknowns by others, and I had ONE breeder say she'd sell me a show dog with a co-ownership and at a higher price. Very discouraging and it was at that point I sort of decided, well, there is no way I can do this until I'm retired! Or at least until we're done having kids and they're all grown up and settled.


Megora and Goldens&Friesians, yup. We really lucked out with our breeder. He has been extremely supportive of our show journey. He didn't grow up in a show home either, so he had to start out on his own like us and does his own handling. He's very well-respected among his peers, breeds according to the standard, and above all else-- ethical. He's a true role model for my daughter (and me!) in the show world. 

I don't know how I feel about the politics of it all. For sure it's present-- in many ways, the whole sport lends itself to it. It's a small dog world, people see each other over and over, relationships develop, there's no real financial gain, and in many ways, it's subjective, etc. But since presentation is emphasized, then of course pros would generally do a superior job. (One would hope, anyway.) Plus, the good handlers can be selective so it's not surprising they have higher quality dogs than the average person... and of course, the higher quality dogs are generally more $$ so then we have the "money wins" argument. Though some people say sometimes it's the lesser dogs that have the pros since they can't win on their own. (In some cases.) 

In my area, there are some great breeders so we tend to compete against very nice dogs in the ring who are often breeder-owner handled. At least we lose against quality dogs. 

My very-novice opinion, for those who are new and want to get into it-- I think there is hope but it depends on what your goals are. In our case, it's about the experience for both my daughter and our dog (now dogs), which is why we wouldn't spend money on a pro handler (even though it'd probably end up being cheaper). Conformation classes and shows, as Megora said, are fantastic places for positive socialization experiences. My daughter enjoys the process of learning how to groom, experimenting with different handling techniques, working through all sorts of challenges, etc. And she's getting to learn how to present herself professionally. This weekend there was an issue where she was told they weren't entered and SHE dealt with the issue herself. I was very happy about that. So, I don't know if our dog will ever finish but even if he doesn't, both he and my daughter have gotten so much out about the process, and that's what I am paying for.

Goldens&Friesians, I don't agree with your friend about starting in a less competitive breed. For one, you have to get the breed you want to live with day in and out because no title on a dog is guaranteed for many reasons. But two, where else do you get to stand side-by-side with highly ranked professionals as an amateur and learn from them?

I'm with you on wanting to wait until you are done with the toddler years...getting through them is a sport in and of itself!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

There is one area that is growing nationwide. That is retriever hunt tests. The numbers from 2015 to 2016 went up 10%! That's huge when you think about it. Just think if that happened with conformation or obedience...

I think as everyone has more and more demands on their personal time, they are going to get more disconnected from attending events. Also US politics has had a negative effect. Let's face it, nobody wants to go to an event knowing that there are 2 or 3 people that are going to harp for hours about how bad things are. That drives people away. Then there is club politics and infighting. Also the lack of people willing to help out. Finding ring stewards isn't that tough. Finding an event secretary to run an event is something that nobody wants to take on anymore. Finding judges is super tough. Becoming a judge for any venue is very difficult. So we rely more and more on the same tired judges that are oh so burned out. I think AKC needs to bear some of the burden. AKC has made it so hard to become a judge. Making the event secretary responsible for so much is also so hard. AKC could really help us out I think...... Instead AKC continues to turn a blind eye. Instead they talk about dropping limited registration so they can get more litters registered. Where is AKC when we really need them to be the group leading the charge to bring relevance to our events???


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

In defense of breeders.....so, so often they are trying to place dogs in performance and/or show homes, and the people SWEAR they are going to show the dog....or train it....or whatever. And guess what, they find out what's involved, and it never happens.
That's why so many won't place a performance or show potential in an unproven home.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Alaska7133 said:


> There is one area that is growing nationwide. That is retriever hunt tests. The numbers from 2015 to 2016 went up 10%! That's huge when you think about it. Just think if that happened with conformation or obedience...


But if hunt tests are growing nationwide, that throws out the "too expensive" argument.

Hunt tests are _crazy _expensive. 

I was bleating about spending $80 on entries! And a friend told me that the entry for the Nationals (MH, I believe with her dog) was way more than just $80.... :surprise:


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

TDX and VST tests cost about $150 each to enter....


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Wow. Hunt tests here are affordable to me - from $45 per day for Junior to $50 or $55 for Senior or Master. It's Dock Diving that is crazy expensive - $30 per wave, and you can do 10 waves in a weekend if you want. I had to pay $75 per wave at the Dock Diving World Championships! A wave is 2 qualifying jumps.


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

hotel4dogs said:


> In defense of breeders.....so, so often they are trying to place dogs in performance and/or show homes, and the people SWEAR they are going to show the dog....or train it....or whatever. And guess what, they find out what's involved, and it never happens.
> That's why so many won't place a performance or show potential in an unproven home.


Yeah, I get that. But surly there must be some way to tell how sincere a person is? Like maybe a breeder can ask questions about the sport the buyer is interested in and see how much they know/determine how much research they've put into it. Or maybe the breeder can just discuss flat out all the time, training, and expenses. I know they'd still probably get burned though, so I don't know-its tough! I also have a theory that breeders get a lot of pressure from the adopt don't shop/rescue crowd, making them even more hesitant to place puppies with newbies.



Anele said:


> Goldens&Friesians, I don't agree with your friend about starting in a less competitive breed. For one, you have to get the breed you want to live with day in and out because no title on a dog is guaranteed for many reasons. But two, where else do you get to stand side-by-side with highly ranked professionals as an amateur and learn from them?
> 
> I'm with you on wanting to wait until you are done with the toddler years...getting through them is a sport in and of itself!


Yep, I agree. As a groomer, I've had hands on experience with dozens of different breeds and I love my goldens and I really don't think I could do a different breed!


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> In defense of breeders.....so, so often they are trying to place dogs in performance and/or show homes, and the people SWEAR they are going to show the dog....or train it....or whatever. And guess what, they find out what's involved, and it never happens.
> That's why so many won't place a performance or show potential in an unproven home.


And sometimes life gets in the way of well intentioned performance homes. I had grand plans for all my dogs, some plans fulfilled, some plans put on hold, some plans ditched because of various reasons including health. I have always trained and done some sort of sport with them, but if you'd look back at what I had dreams about and what I achieved, it probably wouldn't be too impressive. :crying:


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

hotel4dogs said:


> In defense of breeders.....so, so often they are trying to place dogs in performance and/or show homes, and the people SWEAR they are going to show the dog....or train it....or whatever. And guess what, they find out what's involved, and it never happens.
> That's why so many won't place a performance or show potential in an unproven home.


I absolutely agree. There are no easy answers-- it's all a risk.



Megora said:


> But if hunt tests are growing nationwide, that throws out the "too expensive" argument.
> 
> Hunt tests are _crazy _expensive.
> 
> I was bleating about spending $80 on entries! And a friend told me that the entry for the Nationals (MH, I believe with her dog) was way more than just $80.... :surprise:


I don't know much about hunt tests at all-- so this might be way off-- but might it be that they are more "controllable": they are more objective; one can better assess if their dog will pass/fail ahead of time (and therefore, decide whether or not to enter) vs. hoping a judge will pick their dog; more than one dog can get his/her title the same day (there's not just one winner); and there's more of a beginning/end than there is for conformation? Maybe people feel like they have more control over the process, so they are more willing to invest their time and money? I can see this being very appealing, if so.



my4goldens said:


> And sometimes life gets in the way of well intentioned performance homes. I had grand plans for all my dogs, some plans fulfilled, some plans put on hold, some plans ditched because of various reasons including health. I have always trained and done some sort of sport with them, but if you'd look back at what I had dreams about and what I achieved, it probably wouldn't be too impressive. :crying:


I'm sorry for the obstacles you've had, especially health. And yes, I agree. We can't always control what happens (isn't control an illusion?) and you are right, I think many times people do have good intentions, plans, and the means--then life happens.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Anele said:


> I don't know much about hunt tests at all-- so this might be way off-- but might it be that they are more "controllable": they are more objective; one can better assess if their dog will pass/fail ahead of time (and therefore, decide whether or not to enter) vs. hoping a judge will pick their dog; more than one dog can get his/her title the same day (there's not just one winner); and there's more of a beginning/end than there is for conformation? Maybe people feel like they have more control over the process, so they are more willing to invest their time and money? I can see this being very appealing, if so.


Sorry to say this isn't true. Hunt tests try to be repeatable. But if you are looking for repeatable and defined on what is asked of a dog, look at obedience trials. They are very structured. From the size of the ring, to the distance the dog has to go for a recall. In hunt tests it can be pretty wildly different from one to the next test. Since we are outdoors in a variety of locations around North America, conditions vary as do judges. Hunt tests are pass/fail with no dog getting 1st, 2nd, etc. like in obedience trials.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

You have done a LOT with all of your dogs. And that's why well known performance breeders are glad to sell a puppy to you!



my4goldens said:


> And sometimes life gets in the way of well intentioned performance homes. I had grand plans for all my dogs, some plans fulfilled, some plans put on hold, some plans ditched because of various reasons including health. I have always trained and done some sort of sport with them, but if you'd look back at what I had dreams about and what I achieved, it probably wouldn't be too impressive. :crying:


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Alaska7133 said:


> Sorry to say this isn't true. Hunt tests try to be repeatable. But if you are looking for repeatable and defined on what is asked of a dog, look at obedience trials. They are very structured. From the size of the ring, to the distance the dog has to go for a recall. In hunt tests it can be pretty wildly different from one to the next test. Since we are outdoors in a variety of locations around North America, conditions vary as do judges. Hunt tests are pass/fail with no dog getting 1st, 2nd, etc. like in obedience trials.


Ah, I would have predicted the variety of "outdoor" issues but I didn't take into account that you also have judges who (as humans) will bring their own inconsistencies to the table. How big of a factor are these inconsistencies in terms of the final pass/fail?

I want to do rally and maybe someday we'd work our way into obedience, but I don't think I have the patience for precision... just waiting for classes to be available for rally!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Anele said:


> Ah, I would have predicted the variety of "outdoor" issues but I didn't take into account that you also have judges who (as humans) will bring their own inconsistencies to the table. How big of a factor are these inconsistencies in terms of the final pass/fail?
> 
> I want to do rally and maybe someday we'd work our way into obedience, but I don't think I have the patience for precision... just waiting until I can take daytime classes as they are the only option at the one training center that offers rally classes.


Pass/fail rates are all over the board. I've seen tests in my area with zero pass rate, and I've seen them with 100% pass rate. Different judges, different tests, different locations, different levels of tests. There are definitely judges I won't run under. I do judge also, I hope I don't have people that avoid running under me...

Rally is a great place to get started. Have fun!


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Alaska7133 said:


> Pass/fail rates are all over the board. I've seen tests in my area with zero pass rate, and I've seen them with 100% pass rate. Different judges, different tests, different locations, different levels of tests. There are definitely judges I won't run under. I do judge also, I hope I don't have people that avoid running under me...


I guess we just can't escape the human element in dog world! No such thing as a truly objective score in any sport!

I have a feeling people seek you out as a judge-- not avoid you!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Anele said:


> I want to do rally and maybe someday we'd work our way into obedience, but I don't think I have the patience for precision... just waiting for classes to be available for rally!


Based on what I saw when I met you guys - you would have no problem with obedience. 

Sometimes obedience too is a bit more liberating for a golden retriever and owner. You can move out. My biggest complaint about rally rings is it's a little dog sport. The little dogs have more of an advantage because there's more space between stations for them then there is for the big dogs.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> You have done a LOT with all of your dogs. And that's why well known performance breeders are glad to sell a puppy to you!


Ah, thanks.  I do have lots of regrets, one being I wish I had tried harder to get Raider to utility, but that stupid moving stand and my ability to break ankles at an alarming rate, along with my back issues got in the way. But looking at him now, at almost 13, I am just thankful he is still with us. And then Tugg despised everything about obedience, thank goodness we found Nosework for him. Hopefully Trippy will see the inside of an obedience ring. Just needs to mature a lot. He is still so much a puppy.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I have a lot of regrets with Tito, too. I understand.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Megora said:


> My biggest complaint about rally rings is it's a little dog sport. The little dogs have more of an advantage because there's more space between stations for them then there is for the big dogs.


I disagree w/ this, we've placed ahead of plenty of little dogs on super tight Rally courses, where it's take a step & do a command. My experience w/ placements, time is the tie breaker & that's where I feel we have an advantage. I've had 2 courses, where I've asked a judge to adjust a sign as it would be physically incapable of any dog bigger than cocker to be able to complete the station & both judges complied. Rally was a great lead into regular obedience & certainly helped us focus on body awareness and heal position.


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## Altairss (Sep 7, 2012)

At the last Rally show I was in the judges actually asked us hey big dog owners any spots you see that are too tight? And they moved the signs for those spots we spoke up about. The very first show I was at I was confused on how I would fit with my golden and I asked the judge and he said oh good point and moved the sign. I do practice with some tight spots just to be sure in case I have a judge that won't move it though.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Megora said:


> You can move out. My biggest complaint about rally rings is it's a little dog sport. The little dogs have more of an advantage because there's more space between stations for them then there is for the big dogs.


Glass half full or half empty imo-
I like a tight course because I tend to show 6-9 mo old puppies in rally and there isn't enough time on a tight course for them to lose their focus lol!!And we're always in the placements.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Prism Goldens said:


> there isn't enough time on a tight course for them to lose their focus lol!!And we're always in the placements.


All I've got to say is there was this one really tight location that we did rally at with my Jacks... we had 2 strikes against us there. First, the location was a very noisy and crowded place and his brain was completely not there. This was his first rally advanced run as well, so he was off leash too... And then second, this was a very tight ring with everything crammed in there. 

You know how we all stress about the location of sits in novice? Usually you have your dog all revved up and finding his rhythm to start on a heel pattern, and 3 steps in you have a halt. Which some dogs either miss that first sit because they were not completely there (or they lost points right off the bat because of a sloppy distracted sit) or any momentum they began with was dispersed right there with the first halt. 

The best judges that we all LOVE for novice are those which just do a pace change right there at the start, letting you go down to the end of the mat and turning before they give you the first halt. 

What I remember experiencing with the heeling pattern on this specific run, you literally had a halt 1.5 steps into this course. And then from there on you had position changes or turns every 2-3 steps. 

It was choppy and disjointed heeling and for a distracted dog - bigger likelihood of missed, slow, or crooked sits whittling points away.

***Might add, in Adv B on that day - of the 3 dogs who got the top scores, 2 were shelties and one was a senior medium sized dog who was moving a little slower....

Jacks did Q despite missing a couple sits, but with a score of 88, we were down in 8th place...


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

I just leaned something. I thought rally had to due with balls, then prism said she shows 6 to 9 months olds, I knew it was something different. Just looked it up on YouTube. I was like o ya Angel already does 90% of that. I'll have to look more into it, Angel is 5 and a half months old. Why didn't anyone tell me it was the ball on the wall thing LOL.


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## mngoldenlove (Sep 26, 2017)

I have been seeing the numbers in agility start to fall around my area. Before the trials would always fill and a draw would be needed, but now no draw is needed these days and trials are simply not filling. Especially the 2 ring trials. No 2 ring trial this year filled. It is kind of sad. But now the number of agility trials is growing so much there is one practically every single weekend. More clubs around here have been trying to offer more of the optional classes just to get their numbers up. A lot of the top dogs that would trial every weekend are starting to retire so their owners are not showing them as much and their new dogs may not be ready to compete. 

I started getting back into rally and noticed that the obedience/rally trials are a little smaller too. But it cost me more to show in rally (advanced B and excellent B) for 2 days then it does agility for 2 days (that's if I just enter Standard and Jumpers).

For me, I have been entering less because my dog is 10.5 years old and he doesn't need to be competing every single weekend. And because it is easier on my bank account. The judge is also a factor for me.


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## Simba_Golden (Aug 31, 2017)

Do you have to pay to watch a dog show? Or anyone can go and bring their dogs with them and watch the participants? There is a obedience trials and rally obedience trials close to me next month. I cannot find any other information aside from location, judges and forms. Thank you.


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## Taylor Oliver (Jun 25, 2017)

Simba_Golden said:


> Do you have to pay to watch a dog show? Or anyone can go and bring their dogs with them and watch the participants? There is a obedience trials and rally obedience trials close to me next month. I cannot find any other information aside from location, judges and forms. Thank you.


Shows usually require a fee to get in (typically only $5). Anybody can go and observe, but unless your dog is entered in the show, they are not permitted on the show grounds. There’s multiple sources to find where shows are in location to you. It depends on the club also... the AKC and UKC are the most well known. You should be able to get on both of their websites and look up events in your area whether it be a big show with conformation, obedience, etc. or smaller obedience/rally trials. Infodog.com is also a good source to look up shows.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I think it may depend on where you live. In my area, entry to the shows is normally free - unless it is at a venue which charges either for parking or for entry into the buildings.

Infodog.com will frequently have links to the premium lists (basic information on the show) and if it is a show they are handling the judging program once available (what rings have which classes) -- or the superintendent information where you might be able to see the judging program.

Both the premium list and the judging program normally say whether there is a charge for entry -- whether non-entered dogs are allowed in/on the show site will also be specified.



Simba_Golden said:


> Do you have to pay to watch a dog show? Or anyone can go and bring their dogs with them and watch the participants? There is a obedience trials and rally obedience trials close to me next month. I cannot find any other information aside from location, judges and forms. Thank you.


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## Simba_Golden (Aug 31, 2017)

Im from Ontario Canada. Im just looking at dogshow.ca because the shows are closer to me like 30 mins to 1 hour drive(although I don’t think its a really big event?) unlike the AKC and GRCC its out of province. All of the show I can see that is closer to me only lists locations, judges and prices per run they don’t even show contacts or email adresses.

I want to do the obedience trial locally in the future with Simba plus if i’m going I want someone like my dog to go with me.. Thanks.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Simba_Golden said:


> Im from Ontario Canada. Im just looking at dogshow.ca because the shows are closer to me like 30 mins to 1 hour drive(although I don’t think its a really big event?) unlike the AKC and GRCC its out of province. All of the show I can see that is closer to me only lists locations, judges and prices per run they don’t even show contacts or email adresses.
> 
> I want to do the obedience trial locally in the future with Simba plus if i’m going I want someone like my dog to go with me.. Thanks.


For events look at Canuck Dogs: Your source for Canadian dog event information online.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Simba_Golden said:


> Do you have to pay to watch a dog show? Or anyone can go and bring their dogs with them and watch the participants? There is a obedience trials and rally obedience trials close to me next month. I cannot find any other information aside from location, judges and forms. Thank you.


This is kinda tricky to answer because you are specifically talking about obedience which generally is more low key and basically everyone attending has their dogs entered. They also generally have smaller facilities because they only need 1-2 rings and space for people sit and warm up. And some clubs resist expanding even when they basically have no room at all (which makes people HATE showing there which affects the numbers of people who enter). 

So taking it one step at a time and specifically talking about obedience trials. 

1. I kinda suggest you contact somebody like Shelly over at Sterre Goldens. She is more field focused, however she does obedience with her dogs and she's nice. She used to be a member here but isn't anymore... so you can contact her through her website. You can google because GRF doesn't allow breeder websites to be linked here. Only rescues. <= There's more people out your way. Including somebody who is a golden person + a judge. I just can't think of his name at this time. But most people are welcoming and friendly when it comes to supporting new people who might be interested in doing obedience or rally with their dogs. When we have a breed like ours, doing obedience or rally is only natural for these dogs. It does take training and time, but we do have something of an advantage. 

2. Free admittance? Yes. Most places are free admittance if it's at a typical club or obedience facility. You can sometimes expect limited parking for that reason, but it is what it. Inside the facilities, same deal. It's tricky getting a comfort spot to sit with your dog. And for that reason, I wouldn't bring my dog to most obedience trials. Because they are generally small scale and limited sitting. Which means even when you find a spot for yourself, you're going to be hassled the entire time because your dog will be pulling from side to side to visit people and other dogs. It will drive you nuts. 

The types of places here in MI (and again Ontario might be different), I would discourage people from bringing their dogs to any of the fall trials. Come ABSOLUTELY and find any club person to sit with and ask questions. But again no space for excess dogs. Some people in obedience too are neurotic. For a reason. They might have dogs who are dog aggressive and need to keep a substantial bubble around them. 

Actually, here in MI - I would completely encourage people to bring their dogs to any of the fun matches that the area clubs put on. Most do monthly matches through the entire year. And these matches are set up as teaching experiences if you are very new and need guidance in the ring. And they are also set up as open floor with the judge. They tend to be very flexible and kind. So if you have a dog and you kinda want to get some idea of what trials are like and get some play time in the ring too - come to the fun matches. You don't have to be showing your dog in order to come. It is part of training too. 

And Ontario might have matches like that. 

Otherwise, I'd absolutely suggest attending the trial - just not with your dog. If you get there very early, you can see the highest level trainers with their dogs. Usually, the highest levels are first in the morning and the lower levels are later in the day or after lunch. If you want to gauge whether you want to do something, sometimes viewing the lower levels is encouraging. 

I think Jodie (another GRF member @Loisiana) put it best when she said once and I don't remember what the content was, but she watched an obedience trial at the basic level (NOVICE regular obedience), found that people were not that good with their dogs, and decided she could do that with her dog. And she did. And I wish more people would take a look at hat obedience is like and get a feel for whether it's too scary. 

Watch the nov B people or sit with them and ask questions and chit chat - a lot of them have been through the whole thing before and have a good humor about it. 

The clubs do release judging programs and if they don't post that online (they should), you can ask somebody at the club. They will be able to give you an idea of what time would be best to see some of the higher level stuff (the dogs actually doing scent discrimination or jumping) and also see the level where you would be jumping in with your dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

And separately - speaking specifically about conformation (all breed or specialty) shows.

They generally are held at big expensive facilities or fairgrounds.

You can absolutely expect to pay for parking at most places. Which is a small fee like $5-7 bucks here in MI. 

Bigger places which are indoors - you can expect to pay admittance. Unless you know somebody who can sneak you in the back door - which I wouldn't try because some clubs really started to crack down on that with guards at the back doors to accost anyone sneaking in with a non-stamped hand. And they are even cracking down on family members of people showing. So spouses or parents or kids... yep, they can get pretty tough. So I would say you are going to have to pay admittance. This can be right around $10 for some places. 

Fairgrounds in summer - you shouldn't have a problem coming in and just paying for parking. Because there's just no way they are going to check every walking around outside between tents.  

There are exceptions. 

For example, there's a very big show out in Lansing, MI in a couple weeks which as far as I know doesn't charge for parking or admittance. Maybe they charge admittance and I just haven't encountered it, but pretty sure they don't. That's kinda an exception though.

There a big show in Jan which draws people from all over - which you are going to get hit for parking and then you are also getting hit for admittance. In my case as somebody who will be showing there, I'm probably going to get hit with a $60 grooming fee too. And I'm already going to be paying about $90 to enter shows that week. So it's expensive all around.  So don't feel bad if you are paying $5 for parking and $9-12 for admittance. It's worth the price of admission because there's a lot to see + good vendors. And I'm pretty sure they will let you bring your dog in for a fee. But don't bring your dog unless you know for sure they will let you.

LOL. Should throw one more thing out on that not. 

The Jan shows - we used to be able to pay for our admission and get our hand stamped, then go out and get our dog and come in the back door. But the people at the door got wise to that and they are now checking papers before you can sneak a dog in. 

Is it worth bringing dogs to shows like that? 

Yes. Actually. Because there is just no way that a dog is going to be able to handle a very big and bustling show if entered in obedience or showing if he has had no exposure. You have crowd noise and slippery floors and a lot of stuff which can freak a dog out if he's not been around it before. And beyond that, it's fun to bring your dog to places like that and shop for your dogs with your dogs right there. 

Just cover your bases and make sure you know that in some way it's OK to bring your dog. You don't want to be put in the position a friend was when she brought her dog to that big Jan show and didn't realize that dogs weren't allowed. Her dog had to sit in the car and it ruined the experience that she and her kids had because they weren't comfortable with their dog stuck in the car.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I wouldn't bring a non-entered dog. 
Most premiums say non-entered dogs should not come, and if you're not used to being aware of your dog and other dogs in close proximity, it could be a problem. I can't think of a single reason it would be a good thing to bring a non-entered dog to be honest. And if you are going to be paying good attention to the rings you won't be able to pay good attention to your dog. 
I was at an outdoor show today- a couple came with their two "service dogs" (not believable SDs) and were sitting between me and the ring. There was a club meeting so the Golden ring had lots of folks there, more than usual. Two Dalmatians and their handlers came between me and this couple and their two dogs, and a scuffle ensued. The man wasn't paying attention to his dogs, the woman wasn't paying attention to them either. The handlers WERE paying attention and it didn't last more than a few seconds, but it wasn't because of the SD people. Who for the next 10minutes complained that their dog just wanted to be friendly, blah blah blah...


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## Simba_Golden (Aug 31, 2017)

Alaska7133 said:


> For events look at Canuck Dogs: Your source for Canadian dog event information online.


Wow, thanks so much for the link! Their last show of the year which is kinda biggie is actually only 30-40 minutes drive from me!


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## Simba_Golden (Aug 31, 2017)

Megora said:


> This is kinda tricky to answer because you are specifically talking about obedience which generally is more low key and basically everyone attending has their dogs entered. They also generally have smaller facilities because they only need 1-2 rings and space for people sit and warm up. And some clubs resist expanding even when they basically have no room at all (which makes people HATE showing there which affects the numbers of people who enter).
> 
> So taking it one step at a time and specifically talking about obedience trials.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for taking the time to write all of these! This is very informative! I literally have to read it 3 times to remember hahaha


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

One thing to add sort of based on what Robin just said above: 

There are some people who DO things that are not ideals. And does lead to people being more antagonistic towards people bringing unentered dogs to shows. 

The show in Jan, for example, has had people swearing that they will not ever enter the show again because people bring family pets to the show and walk them right up into set ups. 

Personally speaking, I had a situation which had my eyebrows going up and hitting the ceiling. I was in a grooming spot behind a curtain so kinda cut off from the general public and I was doing some off leash obedience training while killing time. 

So my dog was in a sit stay at the one end and I was about 30 feet away and preparing to call him to come. 

And I had somebody walking their dog up to visit my dog. :surprise:

Fortunately my dog is nice and well trained. 

I called him to come and did not blow a gasket at the people who just walked their dog very trustingly to a random dog. 

Aside from the circumstance where I basically do not want any strange dogs going nose to nose with mine and giving him germs, there is also the fact that you should not approach any dog without permission. And for goodness sakes, don't assume my dog won't tear another dog's face off. 

Mine won't. But some goldens out there would. 


I do agree with Robin that if socializing your dog with other dogs is your goal for attending a show - please don't. A show is not a place to have your dog meet other dogs. 

For the purpose of obedience training and competition - things are a little different. Because I do understand it's less about meeting and greeting with other dogs and more about learning what your dog's threshold of stress/etc is and whether your dog is ready. 

People who go from dog training classes right into trials sometimes are freaked out because their dog is so wired. It's pretty sad when you see things like that because the owner had no idea it was a problem before entering the trial and showing up. Some people bring their whole families too which compounds things.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Simba_Golden said:


> Thank you so much for taking the time to write all of these! This is very informative! I literally have to read it 3 times to remember hahaha


Sorry - I get carried away. Big word mobs. :grin2:

Del Lunn is the other person I thought of. He's a very nice man. Obedience judge and breeder. He might be able to give you some ideas.


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## Simba_Golden (Aug 31, 2017)

> You have crowd noise and slippery floors and a lot of stuff which can freak a dog out if he's not been around it before. And beyond that, it's fun to bring your dog to places like that and shop for your dogs with your dogs right there.


This is the reason actually I want to bring my dog  And honestly I don’t mind paying the entrance and parking lot fee. Most likely than not it’s going to cost me more to buy something for my dog


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## Simba_Golden (Aug 31, 2017)

> And if you are going to be paying good attention to the rings you won't be able to pay good attention to your dog.


Actually this is a very good point also. I will keep this in mind. Thank you.


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