# newbie with a pretty simlpe question



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hello!
Well there are two things going on here. First the dog clearly does not know how to come when called. This is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT command for ANY dog -- ESPECIALLY a pet! 
You need to go back to basics and teach the dog to come when called. Use a long line so you can reel her in rather than giving her the option to come or not. When you reel her in, simply say "COME" (or "HERE" -- but pick one and be consistent), and praise emphatically (treats are great) when she gets to you. Keep using the long line until she automatically turns and starts coming on her own. At that point, keep the long line on her but let her just drag it...go and pick up the line and repeat the reeling in only if she ignores your FIRST command. 
This is a process that will take several weeks.
Secondly if she is dropping the bumper that indicates a lack of persistence and clearly she thinks of it as nothing but a game. You need to instill a sense of purpose and desire into her training which comes in the form of force fetch training. This is the keystone of all retriever training and is essential even for the occasional weekend hunter. I would suggest getting a copy of either Even Graham's SmartFetch or Mike Lardy's Total Retriever Training, both of which will walk you through the steps of force fetch. If you do nothing else in training her, this will help you immensely. 
You've hit into the exact two problems that most people run into -- you're at a crossroads now. If she learns nothing else but to come when called and to retrieve reliably when sent, you will still have a workable gun dog. If you do not teach these things, you'll have an unruly pet who is useless retrieving game. 
Best of luck!! Has your dog been on birds yet?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Few things (and I agree with K9 Design, except I don't think "force fetch" is necessary for any dog unless you want the perfect accuracy and focus necessary for trialing)...

1. Long line retrieves only until your dog is doing a reliable retrieve without you popping the line. This ensures your dog has a successful come and retrieve every time. 

2. Three retrieves a day ONLY. People forget that goldens are not labs. They will NOT retrieve a cazillion times a day. They get bored and invent their own games. Like "Now you come chase me". Or "Ooooh stick! Must CHEW". <- After they are trained to retrieve to hand every time, you can do more than three retrieves, but early stages you want to build on that "joy of retrieving" instinct that your retriever was born with. That "joy of retrieving" goes away when you BORE your young golden.

3. Do not do "fun" retrieves. All retrieves must be reinforced "bring item back to hand". Do not ever throw something you do not expect or intend for the dog to return right to hand. 

4. At the end of each retrieve, dog gets a moment hold and play with the toy in your space. This is the time you throw a party and praise that successful retrieve. Take your time before taking the toy and giving the treat. And immediately follow up with the next toss.

- Consider taking up a retrieve class if there is one in your area. Or ask for a one-on-one with an instructor who teaches retrieve classes. This is to help you sort out what you must do to teach your dog and what you are doing wrong. 

-/+ And it doesn't matter if you don't plan on doing hunt trials or taking your dog hunting. Those retrieve classes are a lot of fun - especially if you have a teacher who will help you teach your dog multiple and blind retrieves. Much fun.


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## reagangray (Oct 12, 2010)

Thank you for the responses so quickly. She does not have a problem not coming to me on command, she does that with vigor every time when I give the command. Just about half the time she drops the bumper before or during her return to me. I think I will try some long line retrieves and see if that helps her out. She is my second Golden, and the first one that I have tried any training with at all. It seems to me that she is a little slow to have things down pat, but when she gets them, she does really well. I am used to labs and that is what I hunt over most of the time. Yes she was one 6 hunts last year and made roughly 20 successful retrieves on land and in water. She loves to go, is not scared of the gun at all, and loves to be in the water, even when its icy cold.


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## reagangray (Oct 12, 2010)

Megora said:


> "Ooooh stick! Must CHEW".


That is for sure her favorite game.:doh:


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> 1. Long line retrieves only until your dog is doing a reliable retrieve without you popping the line. This ensures your dog has a successful come and retrieve every time.


The Check Cord is important. You really need a way to maintain control of the dog while it's learning the lessons you're trying to teach. 




Megora said:


> 2. Three retrieves a day ONLY. People forget that goldens are not labs. They will NOT retrieve a cazillion times a day. They get bored and invent their own games. Like "Now you come chase me".


While this is somewhat true for young puppies, a 20 month old can do significanlty more than 3 retrieves. The "goldens aren't labs" comment is total hogwash. A well bred golden will retrieve all day without giving a second thought. 



Megora said:


> 3. Do not do "fun" retrieves. All retrieves must be reinforced "bring item back to hand". Do not ever throw something you do not expect or intend for the dog to return right to hand.


"Fun retrieves" or "happy bumpers" are essential for rewarding the dog and keeping a good attitude toward training. They serve as a pick me up after doing the dull boring obedience drills. 



I do agree with Anney, the Obedience component of her training needs some polish. Novice trainers often don't have the OB work as refined as it needs to be for field work. They have taught the pup sit, here and heel. The pup knows what those commands are, but it's execution of them is not polished nor refined. Practice makes perfect and daily work in the yard doing heeling patterns, sit, remote sit, etc will pay dividends in the field. 

The elements of a retrieve are easy to understand

1. Go when sent.

2. Pick something up.

3. Recall when ordered to do so.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

reagangray said:


> Thank you for the responses so quickly. She does not have a problem not coming to me on command, she does that with vigor every time when I give the command. Just about half the time she drops the bumper before or during her return to me. I think I will try some long line retrieves and see if that helps her out. She is my second Golden, and the first one that I have tried any training with at all. It seems to me that she is a little slow to have things down pat, but when she gets them, she does really well. I am used to labs and that is what I hunt over most of the time. Yes she was one 6 hunts last year and made roughly 20 successful retrieves on land and in water. She loves to go, is not scared of the gun at all, and loves to be in the water, even when its icy cold.


I had this problem--totally cleared up after force fetch and collar conditioning. Make sure if you have not done these before that you have someone help you and that your dog is ready for them.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> While this is somewhat true for young puppies, a 20 month old can do significanlty more than 3 retrieves. The "goldens aren't labs" comment is total hogwash. A well bred golden will retrieve all day without giving a second thought.


I forgot the all important "in my experience". My dogs do retrieve rather well and quiver when it comes to being sent out, but I obviously have never had any well-bred goldens because I've always had to approach retrieves the same way I approach anything else when teaching or reinforcing something. Three times successful a day makes a good foundation. As far as teaching them to retrieve, I take pride in saying I've never had to pinch their ears or zap their throats to get them to do what they were bred to do. And I will not do anything like that. So again, my advice comes from a backyard and probably obedience ring type trainer. Not a field trainer. I acknowledge that there is a higher level of focus and training necessary when you are in the field and the dog is loose. 

(I clarified that muddle of stuff I was trying to say earlier. Sorry about the confusion)

Seriously speaking though - if you are using your dog for hunting, K9 Design and Swamp Collie are right. I assumed this was more a basic "teaching a young golden to retrieve" question when I made my earlier comment. I would still pick up a retrieve class, but judging by your dog's pics, you don't need to much in that direction. Nice pics<:


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> I forgot the all important my "in my experience". My dogs do retrieve rather well and quiver when it comes to being sent out, but I obviously have never had any well-bred goldens because I've never had to pinch their ears or zap their throats to get them to do what they were bred to do.


So what is all this supposed to mean? Seriously.
I too thought your "they aren't labs" comment was ridiculous, and I'm not putting together what you're saying here. I think it's the same old baloney put forth by the anti-force crowd (aka those people who do not aspire to high level work in a hunt test or field trial setting) but I could be wrong.



> Seriously speaking though - if you are using your dog for hunting, K9 Design and Swamp Collie are right. I assumed this was more a basic "teaching a young golden to retrieve" question when I made my earlier comment. I would still pick up a retrieve class, but judging by your dog's pics, you don't need to much in that direction. Nice pics<:


The guy said he wants his dog to be a weekend hunter. Therefore some training is needed. If he just wanted the dog to fetch a tennis ball in the back yard then why post to a field training board? 
If you have someone in your area that teaches a "retrieve class" then that is wonderful but I personally have never heard of this. I was going to recommend the guy find a professional retriever trainer and either take lessons or leave the dog for board & train to complete basic obedience and force fetch but if the dog's mainly a family pet most people are not willing to do this. The problems he's having are basic obedience & field training issues which with some dedication and research (books) he can easily do himself.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> So what is all this supposed to mean? Seriously.


Sorry.... I went back and completed my thought properly. 



> I too thought your "they aren't labs" comment was ridiculous


hmmm... as I said, I originally thought this was a standard "how to teach my dog to retrieve" question. I've seen people who just throw and throw and throw and throw and throw tennis balls or whatever and don't so much as acknowledge the retrieves beyond grabbing the ball to throw again. <- That's the biggest problem that I see when average people are trying to teach their dogs to retrieve. 

There are certain breeds (like labs) who don't care. At least to my observation. They thrive on the continuous throwing and want that owner to take the ball and throw it again. But when you have dogs with shorter attention spans (like goldens), then there's a chance they will get bored with that. 



> The guy said he wants his dog to be a weekend hunter. Therefore some training is needed. If he just wanted the dog to fetch a tennis ball in the back yard then why post to a field training board?


I'm sorry. When I see topics pop up on the main discussion forum, I click, read and answer without looking at which board it was posted under. This is the second time I've done that. :doh:



> If you have someone in your area that teaches a "retrieve class" then that is wonderful but I personally have never heard of this.


My first trainer taught one - and I had a ball. My Danny was the only golden in the class. The others were hunting dogs like labs and shorthaired pointers. He was the only dog who did perfect retrieves ever single time, and with the same rushing drive to retrieve to hand. As he came from all conformation lines, this made me proud. I know it wasn't just my handling. 

My current trainer offers such a class as well. I almost entered my Jacks but was pinching pennies at the time. As it is, I know that a number of people I class with did take that class and are getting hunting titles on their dogs. 

I assume other clubs offered the same classes... ?

PS - Those same people (at my club), btw, do use the harsh methods like the ear pinch or shock collar. As I said in my original comment, I assume that when you are trying to get the precise retrieves necessary for trialing and hunting, then those methods are necessary. If you are just doing basic retrieves at home and want a dog who has a decent retrieve drive, then I don't think it is necessary to go that route.


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## reagangray (Oct 12, 2010)

Holy cheeseburger batman! I didnt mean to start a FF vs non FF discussion as I am sure those are a plenty other places if one so desired to be involved. However, I have gotten some quite use full information from the discussion. I'm not against FF, but also not going to do FF for one, I don't know how to use those methods correctly, and for two, I don't own an e-collar and don't intend to buy one (I have a 5yr old son, 2yr old daughter, and a any day now yr old, so cash is a little snug). I guess I am looking for drills that I can do in my back yard that will enforce desire and obedience and holding the dang bumper until she gets back to me. 

Someday I want a dog that will run like the wind, swim like a jet ski turn around like an Indy car, shoot back to me like a well placed bullet, and sit at my side patiently while waiting for me to send him again, but that's not in the cards for me right now, to many other irons in the fire. I am quite pleased with what she does now, I don't care if she sits at heel perfectly, or goes on blind retrieves or T's or any of that stuff that I think is awesome. I just want her to not drop the bumper, or at least go back and get it if she does drop it.

Again, thank you for the insight, and thanks for the compliment on the pics. She is a wonderful flea bag!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Having been a pro trainer, I kind of understand your desire only to want the dog to do a very basic version of retrieving. But I also understand dogs enough to know that a halfway education for him will only halfway prepare him for the important job of game conservation, even if it's on a few weekends during the season.

I suggest to you that you may want to be more open to giving your dog a better than minimum education for his work out there. Or, as I've advised many trainers at my seminars over the years, "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do 'underwhelms' him, not 'overwhelms' him.





 
Force fetch is a great skill set that can provide a working retriever with a huge advantage in his work. But it will make no difference if he'll fetch and hold game when he won't come back with it. Obedience needs to be cleaned up first.





 
EvanG


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

You don't need a collar to force fetch, although a book that costs less than $50 will be tremendously helpful. A few bumpers, a long line and a game plan is all you need to accomplish your training goals.


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## marsh mop (Mar 13, 2009)

Great info from Anney and Evan. There is an HRC club near you. You should be able to find members close to you that could help you out. Here is link to the club Three Rivers HRC - Home . Jim


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

You might also try contacting Rockerin Kennels to see if you can do some day training with guidance. They are out in Stillwater and have some pretty phenomenal working Goldens.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

You've gotten advice that is as good as it gets. Now the question is what are you willing to do? Help is here, and is available for your long term needs. But since you plan to hunt this dog, what are you willing to do to preprare him?

EvanG


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## reagangray (Oct 12, 2010)

I am willing to do as much as time/$ will allow me to do. I have gotten some fantastic advice and plan to use it well and continue to learn with and as my dog learns. My wife will deliver our third child literally any day now so I am pretty short on time and money, however, I will use what I have learned here and continue to work with her at my home and in the field (same place), and then after life and hunting season resume some level of normal, push her to be better at obedience, and then hunt retrieve ability. 

Thank you all for all of your advice, I assure you, it has not fallen on deaf ears! :dblthumb2


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Good! When the new baby excitement settles to the point at which you can do some training formalize your obedience first. That is critical, and fairly easy.





 
When you're ready to move forward, let me know. In the meantime good luck with mom and baby!

EvanG


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## boilers22 (Nov 17, 2010)

I also wanted to thank everyone for their posts, I am new to the forum but found this topic extremely helpful. My wife and I have a deposit on a litter born just a couple days ago, this will be our first pup and he will also be just as much the family dog as my hunting companion. It will be my first time training, so I can't wait, but I guess I have between now and mid January to research and prepare... More questions to come... Thanks in advance


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## winewinn (Jan 7, 2008)

reagangray said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have a 20 month old female. Firstly, her primary job is to be a loving pet for my kids and secondly to accompany me on a hand full of duck hunting trips during season. I don't have the time to make her into a hunt test worthy dog but I would like her to do a dew simple things. Really my question is that when I throw a bumper, she will sit and stay and I can walk off for a minute or two and then send her. She runs hard and takes a direct line to the bumper, picks it up in the center, and then takes a trip into la la land. She will just go off where ever she wants to with no desire to return the bumper to me. When I tell her "here" about half the time she runs to me and sits facing me and gives the bumper on command, the other half of the time she will drop the bumper and then run and sit facing me.
> 
> ...


Force fetch.  And, it is really not that difficult to train. Just a few minutes each day.


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