# Opinions please on this high protein food.



## Loboto-Me (Nov 13, 2008)

Some of you know that Sophie has not been eating much. I tried green tripe and it went well until the yesterday where she once again wouldn't touch her food.

We had been thinking of changing her food over to "Horizon Legacy" which is grain free, and high calorie compared to the Eagle Pack Holistic food she's getting now. I figure that if she eats a smaller amount of this food, she will still get the amount of calories she needs.

http://www.horizonpetfood.com/Products/dog_legacy.html

I'm impressed with it in that they are completely Canadian, for me it feels safer knowing that they don't used products from China.

My only problem with it is that I'm not sure about having such a high protein content. Sophie is a year old so no longer actively growing, but she's not a super active dog by any means. 

Some people say that there are issues with high protein but I forget what the issue is. 

I got some sample packages and gave them to Sophie twice so far, and she ate it all, so she's liking it.


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

I don't have an answer regarding protein for you...just thought I'd post to help keep the thread active. Good luck finding a food she enjoys and will continue to eat.


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

I found this Q&A about protein...http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=0+1770&aid=1104


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## Loboto-Me (Nov 13, 2008)

Thank you for the link. I knew that some people had said something about high proteins and health, I just didn't remember what the reasoning was. I thought it was something about cancer rates, but it must have been about the kidney function. This link sure helped me breathe easier about the choice I'm thinking about.

I'd still like to have more opinions from those "food gurus" on this forum about this food in general. Through my own "research" I'm liking this food, but I know that there are some here that can read between the lines... I'm not there yet lol.


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

You're welcome. Another Thread is discussing foods right now, you should jump in.
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=65706


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## Loboto-Me (Nov 13, 2008)

Awesome! I'm reading it now and Betty (Penny and Maggie's Mom) linked to another site that I'm reading as well. 

The question NOW is, since Horizon Legacy is a 40% protein, are these proteins GOOD, digestable proteins lol... ack! the more ya read the more ya wonder!


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Join the FCC: Food Confusion Club


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

My dogs are on a low carb kibble rotation for breakfast and Horizon Legacy is the next brand I'm going to try in a few weeks. Choosing the company is as important to me as choosing the specific kibble and I initially feel good about Horizon from everything I've read.

My dogs currently rotate among Orijen Adult and Acana Prairie Harvest (both made by Champion Pet Foods of Canada); as well as EVO by Natura. My 2 yr. old lab ate Orijen Large Breed Puppy with 40% protein until 7 months old and had nice even growth. My Bentley is a senior and these formulas give him much leaner muscle, more energy and better coat than kibble I used to feed. I'm not aware of any studies that indicate higher protein as a problem for one year old dogs. Not overfeeding is something to keep in mind.

I also like that the Horizon Legacy is using peas as the primary carbohydrate binder - that's a nice change from the potatoes that so many formulas use. I know one person who started feeding the Horizon to his dog about a month ago and so far is very pleased with it. You really won't know the results for your individual dog until you try it for several months.


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## Loboto-Me (Nov 13, 2008)

On the other thread, I saw that you were thinking about the Horizon Legacy, and that made me happy to know that someone else is also impressed with what they're claiming and their ingredients. It makes it kind of hard to get help with some of the foods canadians have because many americans have no idea about some of our foods.

Since Sophie is no longer interested in her regular food (not even as a treat, she spits it out) I'll have do a change over without being gradual about it... she'd pick out all the Horizon and leave the Eagle Pack kibbles behind anyway.

Someone mentioned on the other thread that I was reading (picking food is harder than picking a dog) that Horizon doesn't offer a frequent buyer rebate. I go to Pet Planet and I will be getting a buy 10 or 12 bags (forget which) and get the last bag free. I'd say that's sort of a rebate.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I saw that food when I was thinking of switching the pups but it was too expensive for me right now. It looks like a great food


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

I've heard nothing but good about Champion pet foods


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Bock said:


> I've heard nothing but good about Champion pet foods



Second this!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Legacy has pretty high calcium/phosphorous. Cody does much better on a lower amount. Acana has a little lower protein level but also a MUCH more moderate calcium/phos.level.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

Loboto-Me said:


> Awesome! I'm reading it now and Betty (Penny and Maggie's Mom) linked to another site that I'm reading as well.
> 
> The question NOW is, since Horizon Legacy is a 40% protein, are these proteins GOOD, digestable proteins lol... ack! the more ya read the more ya wonder!


There are a lot of questions still unanswered about the effects of high protein commercial diets, so they are currently a bit of a gamble. Before feeding any food, always recommend questioning the corresponding manufacturer thoroughly about a myraid of topics, including protein: how much of it is digestable, how much of it is directly from specified animal meat sources, the quality of the the sources, etc. And feel free to report your findings back here for any of your GRF friends that might be interested in learning more about this food.:wavey:


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## Loboto-Me (Nov 13, 2008)

About the calcium and phosphorus content, I'm glad you mentioned it. After a little bit of research, it seems that it's not so much the amount of calcium there is in a food, it's really about the ratio of calcium to phosphorus content together. They have to form a balance together. Considering the phosphorus content is higher than most, it does balance out the calcium content which is higher than most as well. It's about the ratio between the two minerals.

I checked out these sites for info

http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublications.com/cgi/content/abstract/147/23/652

http://www.stevesrealfood.com/facts/calcium-phosphorous.html

As you will see, on the second site, it tells you the maximum amounts of both minerals for dogs, and Horizon Legacy doesn't pass that amount, although higher than some other kibble brands, the ration seems to be about right.

I'm glad you're making me think a little deeper with this though, it gave me incentive to go looking and trying to understand a little more than my lazy brain would have chosen to. 

I'm going to go off and see if I can email Horizon with Garfield's queries  Many of Garfield's questions were already answered on the site itself (first post link) but I'd like to know the digestibility of the proteins for sure.

PS: Horizon is not a part of Champion Foods as far as I can tell. It's an independent Canadian company who uses most of their foods from within 100km of the company. Also, they claim that their standards are as good as for human consumption (my interpretation) in that they check each ingredient carefully before allowing it to go into their food.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Loboto-Me said:


> About the calcium and phosphorus content, I'm glad you mentioned it. After a little bit of research, it seems that it's not so much the amount of calcium there is in a food, it's really about the ratio of calcium to phosphorus content together. They have to form a balance together. Considering the phosphorus content is higher than most, it does balance out the calcium content which is higher than most as well. It's about the ratio between the two minerals.
> 
> I checked out these sites for info
> 
> ...


 
For many dogs that's true, but in Cody's case lower phos level is vital. For dogs with kidney issues it is also important ( http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html .... scroll down to selecting a diet). Many also believe large dogs should have lower amts. If you check the Innova large breed adult the cahos ratio is MUCH lower. The Whole Dog Journal had a chart last winter comparing grain frees, and actually found that one of the EVOs ( can't remember which) was over AAFCO guidelines. All in all, it is the one issue that I struggle with concerning grain free....... I compromise and use those with more moderate levels for the goldens and keep Cody either on the Fromm or Innova(which of course do have grains).


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

I do not see the calcium/phosphorus percentages listed for the Adult Horizon Legacy grain-free formula on their site. I do see it listed for the puppy version. Does someone know the calcium % for the Adult formula?

Also, I have to believe the protein sources in the Horizon Legacy have a high digestibility factor. It uses fresh chicken, chicken meal, salmon meal and turkey meal which have higher protein digestibility ratios (amount of ingredient consumed compared to amount of protein utilized) than plant crops typically.

Horizon's company profile is similar to Champion Petfoods, but they are two separate companies.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> For many dogs that's true, but in Cody's case lower phos level is vital. For dogs with kidney issues it is also important ( http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html .... scroll down to selecting a diet). Many also believe large dogs should have lower amts. If you check the Innova large breed adult the cahos ratio is MUCH lower. The Whole Dog Journal had a chart last winter comparing grain frees, and actually found that one of the EVOs ( can't remember which) was over AAFCO guidelines. All in all, it is the one issue that I struggle with concerning grain free....... *I compromise and use those with more moderate levels* for the goldens and keep Cody either on the Fromm or Innova(which of course do have grains).


I know what you mean. A lot of careful label reading is really in our best interest. EVO Large bites calcium/phosphorus is high at 2.55%/1.57%; whereas the Acana Prairie Harvest is much more moderate at 1.3% calcium/1.1% phosphorus.


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## Loboto-Me (Nov 13, 2008)

Betty, your Cody is lucky to have an owner who has noticed things like this. I don't think that I would have known that it was a certain ingredient that was bothering my own dog, without someone's help. I'm just now (mostly because of you) learning a little more about ingredients.

My Bently, Omg! I was reading the ratio of the Puppy food, thinking it was the adult food. You're right, there's no percentages on there for the Adult formula. Even so, the ratio for the puppy would still work out (although higher than most adult kibbles) for the adult. It doesn't go over the maximum stated on that other link. Now the search is for the missing percentages... does it ever end?


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## Loboto-Me (Nov 13, 2008)

I tried to email Horizon to ask about the calcium and phosphorus content, but when I click on "contact us" it doesn't do anything. I dont' want to call long distance. Would you mind emailing them MyBently? If not, that's no problem... wish they just stated what their email addy was on the site rather than relying on a click.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Loboto-Me said:


> I tried to email Horizon to ask about the calcium and phosphorus content, but when I click on "contact us" it doesn't do anything. I dont' want to call long distance. Would you mind emailing them MyBently? If not, that's no problem... wish they just stated what their email addy was on the site rather than relying on a click.


Glad to. I just sent off an e-mail to Horizon asking them for the calcium and phosphorus percentages for the Horizon Legacy Adult formula. Hope to hear back from them tomorrow. I'll post back with any information I get.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

More reading material ...
Sep '08 GRF thread
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=43792&highlight=calculating+protein


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Just got a reply to my e-mail from Horizon at noon today regarding calcium/phosphorus percentages for *Horizon Legacy Adult:*

calcium 2.09%
phosphorus 1.65%

This comes in under AAFCO's maximum calcium percentage on an as fed basis which is 2.5%

As a comparison:
EVO Large bites: 2.55/1.57
Orijen Adult: 1.7/1.2
Acana Prairie Harvest: 1.3/1.1


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## Loboto-Me (Nov 13, 2008)

Thanks T&T, I just went and read that thread.... I'm almost more confused! At first I thought OK, Sophie's probably getting too much protein. Then, as I kept going on, the calculations came about, then, after that, Hotel For Dogs said something about the recommended amounts on the bags has to do the protein amounts... which is why the bags usually recommend so much. I'm now wondering if the protein amount is just right for Sophie because she doesn't eat a large amount (2 cups per day now).

MyBentley, thanks so much for going through the trouble of emailing them and relaying the info to us. That amount seems a bit high and worries me a little bit to be honest. Wasn't that more than the puppy food? I know it's still lower than the maximum recommended. 

I ended up buying her the food because she just wasn't eating. She had lost some weight, I could see it in her belly, although it wasn't a dangerous amount. Guess what? She's eating all her meals and OMgosh! The energy she has now is unbelievable! I think Duke is annoyed with me because Sophie has been acting like a puppy again... being the aggravating little sister she should be. So far, I'm very happy with the results in Sophie. We obviously had to switch her all at once because she wasn't eating ANY of the old food. We had no problems so far. She has firm poops, no itching, nothing to be concerned about. It's still in the beginning of her new regime, so I'm keeping an eye on her for changes.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

> MyBentley, thanks so much for going through the trouble of emailing them and relaying the info to us. That amount seems a bit high and worries me a little bit to be honest. Wasn't that more than the puppy food? I know it's still lower than the maximum recommended.


Yes, the Legacy Puppy calcium is lower at 1.94 and phosphorus 1.33 When I try the Legacy next month as part of my dogs' kibble rotation, I may actually buy the puppy version - even though my lab is 2 yrs. and my Bentley is going on 9. The only difference between the puppy and adult version is the calcium/phosphorus percentages and puppy with 19% fat while adult at 16'% fat. That is still lower than EVO.

I hope the change goes well. I think it looks like a good formula by a quality company. Let us know how it goes.


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