# Which breeders would you look at for the do-it-all golden?



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Jane Docter, Docmar Goldens. Judy Super, Westmarch Goldens. Pat Quinn, Everlore Goldens. Jane Noble, Four Lakes Goldens. Leslie Boerboon, Maplehills Kennels.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

I'm not unbiased but I'd put Sunfire _Sunfire Golden Retrievers - Home and News_ on your list of breeders to check out. They've been breeding for many years and their dogs do obedience, agility and field. You can see on _Sunfire Golden Retrievers - Sunfire's Honor Roll _how very successful many of their dogs have been. The honor roll indicates dogs that have lived to at least 14 or 15 and there are lots of them. Many Sunfire dogs are "just pets" but they're typically not couch potatoes. Our Gracie who is learning competition obedience and agility is certified for therapy work. Sunfire is located in CT but some of their dogs have been placed as far away as California.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

richwood Goldens in FL. Agree with other above. I like Highmark Goldens too. Lines that I have seen that I like that produce nice all around dogs.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

You may want to stop by and watch a few local obedience trials. See what is showing in your area. See where their dogs from. I'm saying that because I can think of about 2-3 breeders in my state who have really nice dogs who are primarily bred for obedience or agility and they "look" and "act" like golden retrievers.... but these breeders don't advertise much prior to breeding and their puppies go fast. 

If you were just looking for rally titles or therapy... I don't really think it matters that much where you look. A lot of nice dogs regardless of pedigree should do well if they are breed standard and mature enough. 

But CDX type titles - it calls for not just trainability, but dogs that are put together well enough that they can handle the training that goes into getting the dogs ready to trial. 

Truly conformation bred golden retrievers should be fine for doing Obedience and Field, however there is more work that goes into training them. In general.

I think in your area - you might want to look at breeders like goldenloch? Home Page Talk to the breeder at least to get an idea of what they generally produce. She might be able to point you in the right direction as far as what you really want. 

But other than that - see if you can get out to agility and obedience trials and see what people in your area have. It might be you want to extend the search out of state, but I guess in a big state like Texas - I always thought you'd find plenty of what you're looking for.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Darleen Harmon at Huntleigh, and Pat Quinn at Everlore/ Paul Kartes at Lakota( they work together) .


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## OvW94 (May 7, 2016)

Thanks so much for all the suggestions so far! Almost all of these are new to me so I'm looking forward to digging around. I wish it were as easy as going to a local show to meet breeders, but in my area there really aren't many goldens - or shows - to speak of. There won't be another local trial until next March, and it looks like I'll have to wait until late Sept/Oct for the next shows closer than 6 hours away. I'll definitely be going, but I don't want to wait till then to search.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

An easy way to see what's produced from a particular kennel name is to establish an account on the yearbook- Welcome Page
and the either input kennel name in a search, looking for VC/VCX dogs, OR do a search for all the VC/VCX dogs last year or year before say.... and then contact THOSE breeding programs.


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

The Yearbook is only accessible to GRCA Members, but the same search can be done using K9data.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> Jane Docter, Docmar Goldens. Judy Super, Westmarch Goldens. Pat Quinn, Everlore Goldens. Jane Noble, Four Lakes Goldens. Leslie Boerboon, Maplehills Kennels.


I was going to say... anyone who Hotel4Dogs breeds her "unicorn" Tito to! He does it all - and has the off switch. I have one of his puppies, bred by Jane Noble at Four Lakes to one her wonderful girls. She is a total all around dog and has a great off switch - because she is given lots of exercise - and she's a total pleasure to live with. I do field and dock diving with my girl; she also has her CCA and CGN (CGC in the US). I hope to get her CD one day. I know she is capable - it's just her person who has to make it happen. She would probably be good at agility, too - but I have zero interest in finding out. :


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Thank you SO much Prism  I am a GRCA member and didn't know I could do that - (I learned something new today, I can go back to bed now 

OVW you have some great input here - lots of good leads. Take Megora's advice and try to keep an eye out locally or friend people on facebook. You can also research male dogs who have what you're looking for and ask their owners for leads on potential breedings that might suit you. Someone who comes to mind here who hasn't been mentioned is Bally. He is owned by our member k9-design. He just became the youngest AKC Grand champion / Master Hunter Golden last month and has the most wonderful temperament, (I've snuggled with him so I'm biased - my girl Ellie is his littermate) He is bred by Richwood Goldens who Kmullen mentioned. 

This guy is a half brother to Bally and is another moderate, athletic guy who does everything: Tucker Golden Retrievers - Puzzle 

Another really cool dog is: Manny, Pedigree: HRCH BISS Am.CH Beau Geste Being Ramiroz UD MH WCX** DDHF VCX or his son owned by Susan Lynch also. 

There is something really special about the breeders whose goals are to keep Golden Retrievers who are true to the breed standard in BOTH form and function. I hope you will take your time and research all the breeders mentioned - their puppies are in high demand but totally worth the wait. I waited a couple years for the girl I have and would do it again in a heartbeat.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Totally, totally agree! And not breeders who are just putting a CD or RN titles on dogs and calling them performance dogs, but who are actually producing working dogs. Kudos to them!



nolefan said:


> There is something really special about the breeders whose goals are to keep Golden Retrievers who are true to the breed standard in BOTH form and function. I hope you will take your time and research all the breeders mentioned - their puppies are in high demand but totally worth the wait. I waited a couple years for the girl I have and would do it again in a heartbeat.


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## OvW94 (May 7, 2016)

All this great feedback! Your input is so helpful & I'm loving looking into all these lines that are a different flavor than the ones I've been seeing around here. I'm not in a huge hurry & will wait for the right dog from the right breeder. 
@Prism Goldens, thanks for that tip! I noticed the link goes to Starz - Kathy has been so helpful with breeder suggestions as well.  @nolefan, I discovered Bally and one of his litters last night as I was researching the recommendation of Richwood. Wow. I'm sure they're spoken for but I'm checking today.

Thank you all - in less than a day you've all helped me go from completely discouraged to really hopeful that there's something special out there.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> And not breeders who are just putting a CD or RN titles on dogs and calling them performance dogs, but who are actually producing working dogs.


People who primarily breed dogs who have RN, CGC, BN titles and call these performance or obedience litters... it is a little misleading simply because the requirements for these titles are very lenient.... a good heeling dog in rally does not always translate to a good heeling dog in novice... BN's I'm not sure if they've changed things for this class (or I got tougher judges who don't believe in 1/2 points when I did it LOL), but the scoring was intended to be a bit more lenient and favorable for encouraging new trainers. And of course, there is no off leash heeling. 

And I do agree that CD's in a pedigree are not the same as UDX's in a pedigree... but you have to respect when you see the breeders getting CD's on all their dogs. It's more than most do.

I guess I'll point out here as an observation... sitting back and watching Open A classes at trials... you get a lot of low scoring because of poor heeling and poor front/finishes (these are primarily elements from novice). But the dogs NQ because of failure to jump, failure to drop, failure to stay. 

Utility - you may have low scoring again because of poor heeling and crooked fronts and finishes... but the dogs primarily seem to NQ because of signals, poor go-outs, and articles especially.

If you want to compete in open and utility - you have to have an agile and SOUND dog who is able to think and work AWAY from the owner's side. You don't always have a guarantee of getting that from a pedigree which has no titles higher than CD level - which is primarily heeling. But of course, even if you are blowing off novice and getting it done so you can do the "fun stuff" in Open and Utility and or you have a dog who hate heeling and has a perpetually crooked butt or spine, it will come back to bite you with low scores because of heeling and front/finish positioning. That's low scores in novice, but definitely means a struggle at the higher levels.


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

I just wanted to caution people that unless you (the buyer) have a track record of being very active in performance (obedience, hunt tests, etc.) and/ or showing in conformation it may be very difficult to get a puppy from some of these top breeders. Yes, you can get on a waiting list and wait. But 9 times out of 10 preference will be given to performance homes. It's worth a shot as sometimes a very nice puppy becomes available at the last minute, as long as you realize that you may not get a puppy for a long time or at all. I always wonder how people looking for a healthy, well bred family pet and willing to pay the price for that, who are sent to top breeders by well intentioned GRF posters, make out with that. I had one woman contact me who had been skipped over on three high end litters from one breeder. Each time she thought she was would be getting a puppy and kept waiting on the waiting list. She was SO frustrated. Anyway, just food for thought.


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## OvW94 (May 7, 2016)

I get it, I do. I know the odds are long but I figured why not aim for the great puppy and see what shakes out. All I know for sure is we'll be a great home for the puppy we do end up with, if I ever do find a breeder who will take that leap of faith on an unproven performance home. Discouraged, but determined our dog is out there.


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

Then there are those of us who tend to try to do many things with our dogs, have gotten a few into performance homes, but would love to get more out there.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

So so true! Sometimes it helps, as has been suggested, to find a stud dog you like and inquire about possible upcoming litters. They may have a breeding coming up to a relatively unknown bitch, and the bitch's owner may be just starting out breeding. But if there is a good pedigree there, and the bitch's owner has a good mentor, you may find just what you are looking for.

QUOTE=BlazenGR;6644257]Then there are those of us who tend to try to do many things with our dogs, have gotten a few into performance homes, but would love to get more out there.[/QUOTE]


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

BlazenGR said:


> Then there are those of us who tend to try to do many things with our dogs, have gotten a few into performance homes, but would love to get more out there.


And these are the breeders to look for, with good pedigrees, health clearances, doing everything right. The most popular, highest end breeders may be out of reach for most people. I heard of a conformation breeder who took 400+ applications for a litter. More likely to win the lottery than get a pup there. But like buying a lottery ticket, worth a try. Adding: but don't be disappointed if you don't get a pup there...


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## glenhaven504 (Sep 4, 2007)

McCormick Manor in Morgantown WV. They have been in business for a goo while and are very conscious on health. Check their website and give Amanda Moss a call.

Steve


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## Tejasjessi (Jun 27, 2016)

They also breed goldendoodles...


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## OvW94 (May 7, 2016)

Thanks for the suggestion glenhaven, but since I have a pretty specific type of dream dog I'm looking more for a breeder who is proving their dogs in any (or all!) of the performance venues.


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## OvW94 (May 7, 2016)

fourlakes said:


> And these are the breeders to look for, with good pedigrees, health clearances, doing everything right. The most popular, highest end breeders may be out of reach for most people.


fourlakes, do you have any advice on how I'd be able to filter through who the "popular, highest end breeders" are while I'm searching? I suspect that's part of why in the last 3-4 months that I've been looking, I rarely even get a response back. Or is that how I tell? :wink2:


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

glenhaven504 said:


> McCormick Manor in Morgantown WV. They have been in business for a goo while and are very conscious on health. Check their website and give Amanda Moss a call.
> 
> Steve


They may be conscious on health but are not conscientious enough to send in eye clearances if they actually have them on the sire and dam of the current litter. And he is also missing a cardiac clearance. They do not appear to do any showing in any venue (so can't know what their dogs would look like next to another dog) AND they breed doodles- so they are never going to have the Golden Retriever breed forefront in their planning. I would put them in the BYB category.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I think the way to go is focus in on a program that has consistently produced what you want, and then watch for litters by sires and dams within the program that interest you in a networking style. With special dogs like that, every puppy may be earmarked a year ahead for a high achieving proven home. For example, if I wanted a dog like that, I would look at sons and daughters of MBISS GCH CH HRCH U-CD Springcreek Everlore All Time Hi CDX BN RN MH WCX VCX DDHF OS BOSS BOVSS and choose five I liked and contact each owner to ask their breeding plans and trust their decisions. Like they bred Stoney daughter Tiki to Jay( MBISS GCH Rhapsody Yet Another One JH AX AXJ WCX VCX), and the pups went to terrific all around homes. You have several generations there of deep achievement in different venues and then an excellent, experienced breeder putting the puzzle pieces together.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

What part of Texas are you from?

Don't be afraid to talk to any breeder, you never know what will be available. Sometimes your breeders who don't breed very often have a list a mile long of people who want in on their next litter, and sometimes those breeders haven't developed a reputation yet so there is more availability. On the other hand, some of your well known performance breeders that breed several litters a year are able to more easily provide pups to people simply because they produce more. 

I'm in Louisiana, I got my first two goldens from a breeder from Sunfire in CT.

Assuming there's puppies, my next will come from a breeder in the Houston area. But this is only her fifth litter in 12 years and have been very successful, so those pups will be highly sought after. But, things happen, litters can turn out big, homes fall through, etc.

As for a dog who can do it all and still has an off switch, I look to OTCH MACH Sunfire's Undeniable VCD3 UDX RAE TDX MH MXC MJB WCX OBHF ADHF ** OS and his offspring. http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=1603


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

OvW94 said:


> fourlakes, do you have any advice on how I'd be able to filter through who the "popular, highest end breeders" are while I'm searching? I suspect that's part of why in the last 3-4 months that I've been looking, I rarely even get a response back. Or is that how I tell? :wink2:


No response kind of sends a message, sorry to say. I think there is a thread somewhere here on GRF with suggestions about how to contact a breeder... Express your strong interest, tell about what you're looking for and what you hope to do with the pup, any past experience you have with dogs, etc. Make it personal, not just a bland inquiry. Some breeders may be jaded though - I did have someone tell me his elaborate plans to compete with the dog, then he did nothing. He was fishing for the best male, telling me what he thought I wanted to hear. Breeders tend to favor people they know through competing or clubs. You could join a Golden retriever club, if there is one in your area, and get to know breeders there - they usually know breeders elsewhere. And check back after a litter is born as pups do become available if there is a large litter, more boys or girls, someone backs out - things like that happen all the time.


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## OvW94 (May 7, 2016)

Loisiana, I live in San Antonio. I know there was a show last week there and a huge one in Houston this week, but we're up in Colorado for the month. And of course, I have to head home 3 days before the Western Regional here because my son's schools starts so early. We don't have a breed club in town and I really don't see goldens around. Besides the 2 rescues in our therapy group and one I see at our training facility, I've only seen one other golden in the last 6 months or so at a park. Of course we saw SIX on our second day in Colorado! Dallas and Houston are too far away for me to feasibly join & be actively involved but I can check out Austin.


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## OvW94 (May 7, 2016)

fourlakes said:


> No response kind of sends a message, sorry to say. I think there is a thread somewhere here on GRF with suggestions about how to contact a breeder... Express your strong interest, tell about what you're looking for and what you hope to do with the pup, any past experience you have with dogs, etc. Make it personal, not just a bland inquiry.


I totally did use that advice!  My email is a summary at the top in case it's someone who doesn't want to read a long message, and then to see if we're the kind of home they're looking for I go into more detail about us, our current dog and the work we do, my golden retriever experience and then more about the kind of puppy I'm looking for. Just for grins I even include a link to my dog's facebook page so they can take a peek at what kind of life my dog is living.

And I do get how one can get jaded over time. I'm the Adoption Coordinator for another breed rescue here in TX and know that eventually you can become pretty guarded about trusting what you read.


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## OvW94 (May 7, 2016)

Also, a quick note to say THANK YOU to those who have PM'd and those who are commenting here in the thread. I don't have enough posts yet to reply to PMs, but I truly do appreciate you taking the time to share your advice and insights.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

As others have said, it's good to visit the types of activities you'd like to do with your pup (agility trials, obedience competitions, etc.) and talk to people in person. It will send the message that you're serious. I was referred to the breeder of my first golden by someone I met at an agility trial, who had exactly the type of dog I was looking for. When searching for my current pup, I was helped tremendously by people on this Forum and by friends in the agility community.

Best of luck - it will work out.


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

glenhaven504 said:


> McCormick Manor in Morgantown WV. They have been in business for a goo while and are very conscious on health. Check their website and give Amanda Moss a call.


Uh, no. On top of the fact that they breed goldendoodles :crying: ....


Annushka Queen Anne's Lace (DOB 1/1/2012) had her first litter before she was a year old (12/19/2012), and although she does have hip, heart and elbow numbers now, her last public eye exam was in July 2013.
Miss Bella Gingersnap only has hip and elbow info on the OFA site.
Sir Chester (DOB 12/3/2011): was bred before he was a year old, and in fact, the litter was born on his first birthday (12/3/2012). Oh, and his prelim radiographs done 3 months later, he came back with mild hip dysplasia.
One Ash Prince Charming At Countrylane (DOB 3/8/2011): has only hip and elbow results in the OFA database.


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## 2golddogs (Oct 19, 2009)

Honora goldens in NY will have a litter in a couple of months. My Cooper is from that breeder and we compete in obedience, agility and field and he is such fun to train. We have also shown in conformation. It is Cooper's sister that was recently bred. I had hoped for a pup out of her last year but this breeding didn't take. It was successful this summer and she is expecting at least 6 pups. The breeder competes in conformation, agility and field.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> What part of Texas are you from?
> 
> As for a dog who can do it all and still has an off switch, I look to OTCH MACH Sunfire's Undeniable VCD3 UDX RAE TDX MH MXC MJB WCX OBHF ADHF ** OS and his offspring. Pedigree: OTCH MACH Sunfire's Undeniable VCD3 UDX RAE TDX MH MXC MJB WCX OBHF ADHF ** OS


This kind of information is invaluable. You can trace this dog and look for breedings or linebreedings on him, even if they are special litters in specific homes rather than from a big program.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Loisiana said:


> As for a dog who can do it all and still has an off switch, I look to OTCH MACH Sunfire's Undeniable VCD3 UDX RAE TDX MH MXC MJB WCX OBHF ADHF ** OS and his offspring. Pedigree: OTCH MACH Sunfire's Undeniable VCD3 UDX RAE TDX MH MXC MJB WCX OBHF ADHF ** OS


And he's so handsome! ???


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## NicoleGold (Dec 8, 2015)

fourlakes said:


> I just wanted to caution people that unless you (the buyer) have a track record of being very active in performance (obedience, hunt tests, etc.) and/ or showing in conformation it may be very difficult to get a puppy from some of these top breeders. Yes, you can get on a waiting list and wait. But 9 times out of 10 preference will be given to performance homes. It's worth a shot as sometimes a very nice puppy becomes available at the last minute, as long as you realize that you may not get a puppy for a long time or at all. I always wonder how people looking for a healthy, well bred family pet and willing to pay the price for that, who are sent to top breeders by well intentioned GRF posters, make out with that. I had one woman contact me who had been skipped over on three high end litters from one breeder. Each time she thought she was would be getting a puppy and kept waiting on the waiting list. She was SO frustrated. Anyway, just food for thought.



Relating to this - I just want to say if you see an AMAZING litter with titles everywhere in a pedigree that you think you have no chance of getting a puppy from, sometimes it is worth reaching out to the breeder and just asking! You honestly never know, you and the breeder might just click, they may have a great feeling about you, etc. I took a chance and reached out to a breeder about a litter that I shouldn't have had a chance at getting a puppy from (an FC AFC MH FDHF x MH breeding, and my husband and I had only ever put a rally title and some dock diving titles on a dog before). Well, somehow I ended up with one of those puppies and now we've been bitten by the performance bug and he is now an MH running in master agility - I think she is pretty happy she took a chance with us! 

Sometimes breeders will surprise you  Good luck!


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## NicoleGold (Dec 8, 2015)

Loisiana said:


> As for a dog who can do it all and still has an off switch, I look to OTCH MACH Sunfire's Undeniable VCD3 UDX RAE TDX MH MXC MJB WCX OBHF ADHF ** OS and his offspring. Pedigree: OTCH MACH Sunfire's Undeniable VCD3 UDX RAE TDX MH MXC MJB WCX OBHF ADHF ** OS


I really like his son, Ben, that I have seen Mike running at hunt tests this spring here in the east. I believe Ben is the sire of one of the upcoming litters Sunfire has, and I think it would be worth you looking into. Ben is a nice looking dog with good work ethic.


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## OvW94 (May 7, 2016)

NicoleGold said:


> I really like his son, Ben, that I have seen Mike running at hunt tests this spring here in the east. I believe Ben is the sire of one of the upcoming litters Sunfire has, and I think it would be worth you looking into. Ben is a nice looking dog with good work ethic.


Ahh THAT's where I'd seen Apollo in a pedigree! I've looked at so many in the last few days, it's all getting a little jumbled. That sure is a good looking, talented line.


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

The Sunfire litter due in August looks awesome. I'd say CALL Barb Biewer at the phone number on the website and talk to her.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

My Phoenix was an Apollo grandson (Titan son). He was a masterpiece of a dog - a snuggle bug when I was hanging out, ready to roll when it was time to train. The biggest sweetheart, wanted to do anything to please me, but still worked with a fire. And so handsome, even if I might be biased. Sadly he was killed by pythium, a fungus getting more and more common in the gulf states, in May at only 2 1/2 years old, but that is another story. I am hoping to get a half brother to my Phoenix in a few months. 

Pedigree: Sunfire's Ashes To Gold CD PCD BN RN WC

Apollo has sired two VCCH dogs, and will have a third as soon as that dog passes his VST test. THese dogs are also MH dogs. Apollo is the only sire to have produced that kind of versatility. There is also a nice record of longevity in his lines


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

Loisiana said:


> I am hoping to get a half brother to my Phoenix in a few months.


So glad to hear you'll be getting another amazing pup! I hope it all works out... You never know until you know with litters. I have one in the works right now too and fingers crossed/ knocking on wood about that!


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## OvW94 (May 7, 2016)

fourlakes said:


> The Sunfire litter due in August looks awesome. I'd say CALL Barb Biewer at the phone number on the website and talk to her.


Thanks for the nudge. I chatted with her earlier. She doesn't have a formal waiting/deposit list until puppies are born, so we'll see what happens. I'll take the fact that it wasn't a flat "no" as a win for today.


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## OvW94 (May 7, 2016)

Loisiana said:


> Pedigree: Sunfire's Ashes To Gold CD PCD BN RN WC


What a stunning boy! He sounds like the dream dog. I'm so sorry for your loss, especially so young. I'd never heard of pythiosis before last month but we just lost one of our dogs in the rescue to it too.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

fourlakes said:


> So glad to hear you'll be getting another amazing pup! I hope it all works out... You never know until you know with litters.


Oh yeah, ultrasound is next week but even then I know how often things can happen. Just have to keep fingers crossed until there are pups on the ground. Feels like an eternity!


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## Rilelen (Jan 11, 2015)

I have nothing to add, but I just wanted to thank everyone who has contributed to this discussion - as a fly on the wall, this has been an amazing conversation to listen in on, and I will definitely be thinking back to this next time I'm looking for a puppy. Great information and so interesting!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

On more thing to add is go meet the dogs, and don't buy through the internet only. People love their own dogs and those related, so there are fiefdoms and as many countries as the united nations. Take opinions with a grain of salt until you yourself do the leg work of verifying clearances, verifying titles, and making sure the specific litter aligns with your specific goals and training ability. Then go meet the dogs and make sure they embody what is in your mind's eye- temperament- soft/edgy'/joyful/serious work ethic/ class clown / kind/snarky etc. 


Another do-it all dog who was owner handled along with his do-it-all daughter is Mister DJ. BOSS CH Westin Having A Party UD, SH, OA, OAJ, WCX, VCX, OS "Mister DJ". 
Pedigree: CH Westin Having A Party UD SH OA OAJ WCX VCX BOSS OS


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## OvW94 (May 7, 2016)

Wow, what a gorgeous & multi-talented guy! It's probably a topic for a different thread, but how would you guess that kind of potential is there when the pedigree is heavily on the conformation side and only shows a scattered few CDs? Or as a breeder is it about noticing that special puppy and putting him in the hands of the right someone to develop him?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I think many conformation bred Goldens retain go drive and bidability for doing more than just conformation. Though admitedly, if you want a top agility or field dog you need to go to a breeder with that as a primary focus, just like if you want a conformation or show dog that can win you need to go to a breeder that focuses on that. Just as getting an all around dog is most likely to come from a breeder that does compete in multiple disciplines. 

I think a lot of times with titles on conformation dogs you are seeing what the humans want to do. A dog might have potential to do many other things but if the human is solely focused on the show ring that's what you're going to get. 

My dogs could be listed as an example of that because I have absolutely no desire to participate in hunting events for a few reasons. First, I don't want to kill ducks. Second, I live in Arizona in the desert which makes training hard, not impossible but very difficult. Third, because I live in the desert I am so paranoid about rattlesnakes in Gila monsters that I'm just not ready to take the risk. Maybe I will one day but right now, I am just not motivated to do it. 

I have two girls and I can tell you my first girl would not do well at hunt tests and the other would burn it up if I invested the time. Also, my first girl would be supper flashy in obedience and the other is a good worker but much more slow and serious about the work. I do train obedience but I have yet to title them because I am almost always showing conformation when obedience trials are happening. I will get to it eventually but for me it is the conformation ring I love and is therefor my focus.

So I would talk to owners and breeders if you see a dog you like that does have a mostly conformation background. They should be able to give you an idea if the dogs are a one off or was it just that the owner is interested in doing more than perhaps the owners of the parents and/or siblings. 

To add one more to the list if you are open to Canada I have admired the Goldcker dogs for awhile.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Also, my first girl would be supper flashy in obedience and the other is a good worker but much more slow and serious about the work. I do train obedience but I have yet to title them because I am almost always showing conformation when obedience trials are happening. I will get to it eventually but for me it is the conformation ring I love and is therefor my focus.


I'm just saying this because I was at a show a couple weeks ago where I had a show person complaining about her breed combining obedience and conformation at the same show. This person would normally have done rally, except she did not want to multi-task at this show (even though a lot of people do). I was unsure what to say because majority of the time - the obedience trials do not overly interfere with conformation, and then if they do, the judges in obedience are very good at accommodating if it's possible. 

It makes for a very busy day if you are planning on doing both conformation and obedience, however - it is a ton of fun and there's a lot of pride in showing a gorgeous show groomed dog in obedience. 

Other thing is that titles in obedience are easy to come by if your dog is trained and you are entering when your dogs are ready. It's not like conformation where you enter and might come away with nothing depending on the mood of the judge. If your dog is good and trained, you will qualify. 

If your dog knows how to stay and come and is relatively well trained to follow you around off lead - you will get your CD. Might not always be impressive scoring, but for people who don't count obedience as a primary interest and they are trying to get the title to show versatility they are primarily interested in the green ribbons. If your dog is like many and does not have a solid group stay in place - then preferred novice is a good option.

Bottom line though - unless you prove your breeding dog in a certain area by titling in that area - you can't claim you've bred for that area. This is a big problem in the breed where you have people claiming they breed for field or obedience when there is nothing behind that dog which demonstrates the truth of that claim. Titles matter in these cases. 

It matters for obedience because we all joke about how we want the judge to come to our classes or judge us at home where our dogs are at their best. Weird things happen in the obedience ring though. A lot of dogs get ring smart when they realize there will be no coaxing, second command, treats, etc.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Okay, I will chime in 

My Towhee retired from the Sunfire Golden Retriever breeding line this week. She is Co-owned with Barbara.

Towhee, Barb, Michael and all my other Sunfire/Sunfire offspring dogs are amazing (Towhee is the dam of Phoenix mentioned earlier and brings a strong work ethic as well as a delightful cuddling gene to her kids).

Barb & Mike will take chances with people but be aware that these are active, fun loving golden retrievers and as such Barb & Mike have to be careful with placing some of their puppies...as mentioned on FB about my Towhee's last litter, the puppies were 'not for the faint of heart'.

so, if you are shifted to perhaps another litter, it is not a negative thing  Barb & Mike have a lot of expertise on what puppies would best fit.

Ben is gorgeous ! Happy working or playing but as a rule, Sunfire dogs do not do well in the breed ring. CCA - they do well since they are beautiful and athletic dogs.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

A clarification 

Lower level obedience titles are attainable for well trained dogs...rally as well.

Open and beyond (CDX, UD, UDX, OTCH etc) can be beyond challenging. And speak to how structurally, emotionally and temperamently sound a dog is in addition to trainability and a love of working.




Megora said:


> I'm just saying this because I was at a show a couple weeks ago where I had a show person complaining about her breed combining obedience and conformation at the same show. This person would normally have done rally, except she did not want to multi-task at this show (even though a lot of people do). I was unsure what to say because majority of the time - the obedience trials do not overly interfere with conformation, and then if they do, the judges in obedience are very good at accommodating if it's possible.
> 
> It makes for a very busy day if you are planning on doing both conformation and obedience, however - it is a ton of fun and there's a lot of pride in showing a gorgeous show groomed dog in obedience.
> 
> ...


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

LJack said:


> To add one more to the list if you are open to Canada I have admired the Goldcker dogs for awhile.


Lori from Goldcker is a wealth of knowledge. She is very focused about putting titles on both ends of the pedigree. My boy Flyer is out of a male she bred and although she was not the breeder of Flyer she was very generous with her time talking to me about what was behind my puppy.


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## OvW94 (May 7, 2016)

Sunrise said:


> so, if you are shifted to perhaps another litter, it is not a negative thing  Barb & Mike have a lot of expertise on what puppies would best fit.
> .


If it works out with this litter, that would be amazing. If not, we're not in a hurry & we'll keep waiting and looking for the right fit for us. She did mention a few breedings that she's thinking about whenever the girls decide it's time. To be honest - with such a loaded pedigree on this litter I just appreciated her even taking the time to talk to me.


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## OvW94 (May 7, 2016)

Once again, a huge thank you to everyone contributing to this thread. I'm soaking it ALL up. Stepping outside of my geographic area has been enlightening. For a research/data nerd like me, being able to dig into k9data with all these new lines and seeing where they lead has been fantastic - and in doing so I can't count the number of "ohhh, that's who that is!" lightbulbs that have gone off. Now when I do get to make it to shows this fall, I'll be armed with the info I need instead of going in blind. Originally I started this thread because I was getting discouraged by finding so many with (1) no/incomplete clearances, (2) no titles of any kind, or (3) so pretty but generations of 8-9 or younger on the longevity. I really was starting to think I was looking for a unicorn but as I play connect the dots it's so nice to be seeing these "doing it right" breeders that I wouldn't have come across otherwise. Thank you!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sunrise said:


> A clarification
> 
> Lower level obedience titles are attainable for well trained dogs...rally as well.
> 
> Open and beyond (CDX, UD, UDX, OTCH etc) can be beyond challenging. And speak to how structurally, emotionally and temperamently sound a dog is in addition to trainability and a love of working.


Yep - I meant that!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

We showed in conformation and for our UDX legs at the same shows multiple times. It's not *that* big of a deal, generally the obedience judges are awesome about adapting to ring conflicts. But I was only showing one dog. I imagine if one were showing multiple dogs, it might be a bit of chaos!
One time a well known obedience judge who also shows in conformation held up the utility ring waiting for Tito to get out of the breed ring. We came FLYING over, and I apologized profusely for being a bit late. I told the judge, "I'm so sorry, we got held up in the breed ring...".
Without thinking she immediately said, "with THIS dog??".
Sheeesh.
I said, "he's not THAT ugly....."
She blushed, laughed, and said, "no no, it's just that not many people show in utility and the breed ring at the same show! I thought maybe you had a different dog in the other ring!"
Uh huh


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't put too much stock just in seeing titles on a dog. Many times titles are a result of the owner's training and dedication, it doesn't really have much to do with the dog. 

On the other hand, I don't want to listen to someone talk about how their dog would be great at __________ but they have no titles in it.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Sorry to have offended everyone with my personal anecdote in an attempt to answer the OPs posted question about high performing dogs that seem to come out of nothing. If I could edit to remove it I would. I will be headed back to my conformation corner now and not claiming experience or interest in anything unless I have some titles.>


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

LJack said:


> Sorry to have offended everyone with my personal anecdote in an attempt to answer the OPs posted question about high performing dogs that seem to come out of nothing. If I could edit to remove it I would. I will be headed back to my conformation corner now and not claiming experience or interest in anything unless I have some titles.>


Laura,

My comment was intended the other way. It's not that difficult to multi-task at a big show and I would encourage people to do so. 

And then I would encourage people to trial their dogs if they are ready. A good dog would be able to finish a title quickly and that's there to see in the pedigrees you produce. And that's experience you have going into the next dog... and bare min a CD is nice to see in a pedigree if you are vaguely interested in getting in obedience with a future pup.


About dogs coming out of nowhere.... the experience of the owner matters just as much as the dog. 

http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=559354

^^^ This dog just went OTCH and if you look at his pedigree and compare to truly obedience bred pedigrees... I think you could probably assume that OTCH came out of nowhere... 

However, that same owner did everything with this dog:

http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=19887

I'd be curious to sit down at talk to this owner to get an idea of what he started with and how he got going, etc... 

But bottom line is that the first steps going down that road - you have to get the ball rolling at the CD level.


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## OvW94 (May 7, 2016)

LJack said:


> Sorry to have offended everyone with my personal anecdote in an attempt to answer the OPs posted question about high performing dogs that seem to come out of nothing. If I could edit to remove it I would. I will be headed back to my conformation corner now and not claiming experience or interest in anything unless I have some titles.>


Not at all - I thought your response was along the lines of what I was thinking was the most common/likely reason. There are only so many hours in the day, right? Spend them doing what you and the dogs want to do. I'm thinking the discussion about needing titles had to do with breeders marketing that they breed for obedience or other venue when nothing in the pedigree shows that's been "proven."


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Megora said:


> My comment was intended the other way. It's not that difficult to multi-task at a big show and I would encourage people to do so


I don't feel that way and have to do what works for me. I owner handle, I owner groom, I owner everything. I am already at a huge disadvantage in the very competative and handler heavy West Coast rings. I personally can not handle splitting my focus. That others can is great for them. 

Honestly, I should have known better than to post about my own dogs but was genuinely trying to answer the OPs question. I am a conformation person through and through. I personally don't think that means I have nothing to offer but as so often happens in these conversations I offend people who perceive I don't. I know much more than my lack of titles shows as my girls go back to a dog I loved and grew-up with who did the VC before you could use the CCA. I am just not passionate about obiedence and personally find it to be rigid and dare I say boring. In the end the sad part is when I do title in obedience, it won't matter. As a conformation dog none of the titles will count unless I go UD and/or MH even then those in the other camps will still doubt because as you put it yourself, sometimes titles are more about the person and training. And yes I feel even less excited about it now after this conversation.

Like I said I will go back to my conformation corner. I was just trying to help the OP and got my dose of dress down for the day. I really respect all that have posted and the breeders that have been mentioned. But this is not and never will be my world so will stop deviling myself and go back I go to where I have cred.>


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

LJack said:


> Sorry to have offended everyone with my personal anecdote in an attempt to answer the OPs posted question about high performing dogs that seem to come out of nothing. If I could edit to remove it I would. I will be headed back to my conformation corner now and not claiming experience or interest in anything unless I have some titles.>


Sorry I realize now my post probably did sound like it was a response to yours but it wasn't. It was just a general comment. Actually I was thinking a lot of the very many people who claim their dogs would be great at hunting or hunt tests and their dogs have never even held a bird. I was trying to say I don't depend just on seeing a dog has certain titles, I want to see the dog work or at least talk to people who have seen it work. But I also don't depend just on the owner's assessment of the dog's strengths if they have never been tested.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

True confessions - I just put pretend tape over my own mouth to avoid getting into trouble. LOL.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

To clarify more, I would expect pretty much any dog of any breed, barring serious physical or mental problems, to be able to earn a CD or other lower level titles with enough training. I don't think it's the titles themselves that tell you about a dog, it's what you learn about the dog in the process. How was the training of the dog? How was the trialing? Did you like the way the dog worked? How did they handle the pressure of a trial? There's a huge difference between a dog who easily sails through a title with high scores and one who requires years of intense training and slogs through the process. The titles are identical and both are worthy of equal pride. But which would you want for a breeding program if that's an area you are breeding for? This is why I don't just look at the titles on a dog but want to know more about how that dog works. 

On the other hand, I have a dog who trains like a rock star and absolutely falls apart in trials. If I had never shown him, nobody would ever know he can't handle the pressure of trials. To work with him, you'd think he has all the makings of a great obedience dog. But he isn't able to put it all together when the pressure is on.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Changed my mind.


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