# 1st altercation with another dog =(



## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

I dont have a ton of experience, but what a dog does when he encounters ONE dog a label of dog aggression shouldnt be given. Sometimes a poor start to a social encounter can create an unwelcome feeling by either dog and be interpretted wrong. Hope you can get more advice from other with more experience.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

I just have this nagging feeling now that if it happened with one dog, it could happen with any dog. Iorek's had some bad experiences with small dogs in the past because it seems like no one in this town knows how to keep their dog on a leash. It's so frustrating, and I think it might have contributed to his reaction.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Crappy situation.
Lucy was charging you and Iorek. Sounds to me like it more of "Stay in your lane,don't mess with me and my Momma"
Iorek might have seen some body language in Lucy that signaled aggression to him and his defense mechanism kicked in. His posture and actions after the fact seems to me like it was no big deal.
I have read before and seen this also with mine. They won't pick a fight but when they are forced into one "they are very efficient fighters and will stand their ground"


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I _hate_ small dogs that have no fear. I get so upset with their owners. I mean really, what are they thinking letting their pint sized little buddy come rushing into the space of a dog 10x's the size. It's just not a good situation any which way you look at it. I would not use a situation like this to label your dog aggressive, no way. 

Iorek might have issues with small dogs (Daisy sure does) but it's impossible to tell in the current scenario. Personally, I think a lot of big dogs might have reacted similarly, and that Iorek might possibly have been reacting quite normally.

In this situation I would be more quick to label Lucy as a poorly behaved and/or poorly managed dog than to label Iorek aggressive. 

Ughhh...sorry you had to go through that. It's so stressful, so frightening, I know. So many people just don't seem to understand how much trouble a cute, little dog can cause  

Did Iorek hurt Lucy at all? I'm thinking not, otherwise you would have mentioned it. You do realize, that Iorek could have seriously hurt Lucy if he wanted to. But he didn't, yes? That means something 

Do you have a canine behaviorist in your area? Check with your vet, they might know someone. I think getting some input from a certified behaviorist would really help you understand Iorek better in situations like this. Let's not give Iorek more problems than he might actually have simply because we don't understand dog-dog relationships.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Radarsdad said:


> I have read before and seen this also with mine. They won't pick a fight but when they are forced into one "they are very efficient fighters and will stand their ground"


We have an issue with a small white dog across the street, her name is Pearl. Pearl gets out of her yard sometimes and has come over to our yard and attacked Daisy several times. Of course the owners are nowhere in sight and that leaves just me to deal with it. But the first time they fought, Daisy pinned Pearl to the ground by her neck. It was the most fascinating thing. Of course, me being the girl that I am, I thought she was killing Pearl ... but it wasn't that at all. Daisy was being very deliberate, and VERY effective, she had complete control of that situation in a matter of seconds, she meant business. And she didn't hurt Pearl at all. She could have, she could have ended Pearl right then and there ... that wasn't her intention. She impressed the heck out of me that day


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

Thank you for the reassurance, everyone. So far, I agree with everything that's been said. My neighbor has mentioned that Lucy has shown quite a lot of aggression in the house, so it's definitely plausible that Iorek quickly sensed her intentions and was just trying to put space between myself and her. He's done something very similar with a pack of two other little dogs that charged us a couple weeks ago, but they were much more responsive to him so it didn't escalate into growling or anything. 

I'm starting to think most people just don't train their little dogs? I can't say Iorek has ever had a 100% positive experience with a little dog. They are always barking/nipping/jumping/being frantic. He's had plenty of great experiences with bigger dogs though. It's so frustrating... it was such a strange feeling today knowing that Lucy was doing the aggressing but Iorek was the one who could actually do a lot of damage due to the size difference and I was so worried about him taking a bite at her. You're right, Jo Ellen, that he did not hurt her when he definitely could have. Not only is he 60lbs, but he's extremelyyyyy strong. That's why I thought it was important that he was so easy to move once I got in between them. If he wanted to have a go at her, it would have happened. 

I'm feeling a lot better... just kind of concerned about how to handle it from here on out. I know for an absolute fact that this will not be a one time thing on Lucy's part. Supposedly she darts out like that whenever the neighbor opens the front door, we just happened to be out at the same time this afternoon, and chances are we will be again at some point. Grr.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Are you sure they weren't just playing? Some dogs make a lot of noise when they play. What made you think it was aggressive?


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Small dog license, owners of small dogs need to be educated. I would talk to Lucy's owners and make sure they understand that you're concerned about Lucy's safety when she pulls those antics with Iorek. Are you on good terms with them? Let them know that you're afraid, you'll do everything in your power to protect Lucy (and I'm sure you will) but they need to help out here. I mean seriously, if they knew that Lucy running out the front door would get her killed, would they let her? I doubt it, they'd be extremely careful and pull out all stops. They need to do no less in this situation.

 It's very stressful, I know it is. I'm constantly looking over my shoulder for that d*mn Pearl dog, she comes out of nowhere. Things will be fine for months on end and then BOOM, she's there. Makes me crazy. You'll handle this as best you can, and hopefully like in my situation with Pearl, it will be enough ... but I know how it is fearing that someday worst-case scenario that will probably never happen, but you just don't know for sure.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

mylissyk said:


> Are you sure they weren't just playing? Some dogs make a lot of noise when they play. What made you think it was aggressive?


This is a really good question, and a very good point. A canine behaviorist would be able to help you recognize Iorek's behaviors so you can respond in a way that is beneficial for him. I know how I sometimes make more of a situation than I need to, just because I'm pulling in all kinds of experiences from the past that may or may not have anything to do with the way Daisy is thinking or responding. Owner-dog dynamics can get really complicated sometimes :


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

Iorek doesn't growl when he plays, strangely. He barks really high pitched instead. Sometimes he'll do a barely-audible growl when a game of tug is involved but that's it. He also doesn't do the rolling-around-rough-housing type play. He plays chase games, tug, and does this bouncy happy dance and bumps into the other dogs to get them to play. Sometimes he'll just pick up random things and throw them with his mouth at the other dog. He learned really weird play habits from my mom's dogs haha. I guess theoretically it could have been play, but I've never ever seen him play like that and I've seen him play with a pretty large array of dogs. There was this feeling of intensity and fear/frustration from him. My instinct tells me he did not view it as play. I would like to ask the neighbor if we can bring both dogs out on a leash and let them greet more properly though to rule that out.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Suggest walking together with your dogs. First keep them on the outside, with the two of you inbetween. Wait until they've expended some energy and are mostly calm. Then start rotating until eventually the dogs are in the middle walking together. 

Maybe if you work at reducing the novelty, you'll be able to eliminate the problem


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

I'm hoping that it's just a matter of getting the novelty to wear off. He was much more jumpy around other dogs last night on our walk, not aggressive, just much more hyper/bouncy. Pretty sure if I had let him get close, it would have irritated the other dogs though. I'm glad obedience classes start this Saturday so that I can get him around other dogs in a controlled environment...don't want this one episode to have a lingering effect. Gosh darn... sometimes I wish I could put him in a bubble where only good things happen.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Our dogs will definitely challenge us  Good that you're going to obedience, perfect environment for sorting this out. I hope you'll come back and give us an update, I'm very interested in how this works for you. If I don't comment on your update, please PM me ... I miss a lot sometimes when I'm working, especially in the summer. I'm on vacation this week so lots of time to keep up now but back to reality next week 

Good luck with your obedience class.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

Update : 

So Iorek's first class was today! I was super nervous and I think Iorek felt it-- he growled at a couple dogs before we even went in. Just a subtle growl, not too audible. This was outside in the parking lot, he was surrounded by about six dogs (some barking), tons of cars, and tons of people in a new area. Once we got inside, he settled down pretty much completely until a very angry Pomeranian sat down in the seat next to us and then he was nervous (especially because she started snarling and lunging at him when he looked in her general direction while she was chewing on a bone).

The class itself is very basic for him and I think for the large majority of it, he was bored because he knows everything covered. However, he's never had to do commands in such a distracting environment with so many other dogs and people which is why we're going and we definitely need that aspect of it before we can progress to the class with the training he _doesn't_ know =) We found the work with settling on his mat to be the hardest because it needed to be done on a long leash but I was feeling so uncomfortable with him being able to get close to the other dogs. So I finally pulled aside the trainers and explained that we were having difficulty due to Iorek's nerves around other dogs since his altercation with Lucy. They were super helpful and took Iorek aside with two of the other dogs in class that were similar sized and pretty sound in behavior. 

Long story short, Iorek's interaction with these dogs was beautiful once he was off leash. He was a playful 6-month old puppy but didn't paw at the other dogs or jump on them and was pretty respectful of space, he just bounced around and play bowed. One of the dogs very quickly asserted his dominant role and Iorek was totally cool with it. He made appeasing but happy gestures and then mostly focused on playing with the other dog. I feel sooooooo much better, obviously similar sized dogs are no issue still. They suggested that we participate in their special needs playgroup sessions which are specifically for dogs like Iorek that may have had bad experiences with certain things and need to be re-acclimated... in his case, it would be smaller dogs so they would slowly acclimate him to being around/playing with smaller dogs in a controlled environment and they would specifically pick small dogs that would be best suited for his personality. 

All in all, I think it went really well for a first training session. He wears a bright yellow bandana to signal to the trainers and the other owners that he is a little bit dog-nervous, but hopefully by the end of classes he won't need it! The trainers were very very good about making sure all the dogs were given an appropriate amount of space and even structured entering/exiting the facility so that no one had to worry about any tension at the doorways. I'm a pretty happy camper!


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

I'm glad things are looking up! I would say wipe those tears - don't assume your dog is aggressive thanks to one growly "fight." Sometimes dogs play rough, or even get in little tizzies, but remember that no damage was done to either dog or by either dog. It sounds to me like a scuffle, not a fight.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Wow, that sounds like an excellent class. I think you've struck gold  Wish there was something around here like that special needs group, I'd be there in a heartbeat. 

This is going to really help you with your confidence and to be able to relax around other dogs. Will you be going to that special needs class?


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

My Shelley now hates jack russells and fox terriers thanks to my aunties jack russell cross fox terrier. When shelley sees either of those breeds her bristles come up and she will not take her eyes off them. Shelley is also weary of strange dogs cause she was attacked by a staffy cross at the river.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

Every time Iorek's had a bad experience with another dog, he's been on a leash. The second I dropped the leash today, he was happy as a clam to go play and be friends. I think now he's just nervous on it. Unfortunately, it's a lot harder to drop a leash with small dogs without trusted trainers/controlled environment because he's sooooo big. He could smoosh them even if he wasn't trying to be mean =(

On the bright side, I found a doggy daycare in town that has seperate big dog/medium dog/small dog play areas that I'm going to take him to in a couple weeks =) I'll ask that they keep him with the big and medium dogs until we get him over this hurdle but I think a couple days a week romping around with other dogs could get him his confidence back, especially in addition to the playgroups!

It's reassuring that other people have had the small-dog anxiety too. So funny that our big dogs can be so jumpy around something so tiny!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Mirinde said:


> Unfortunately, it's a lot harder to drop a leash with small dogs without trusted trainers/controlled environment because he's sooooo big. He could smoosh them even if he wasn't trying to be mean =(


Exactly. Dropping the leash is good advice (usually) and I can't tell you how tempted I have been several times, but it's much easier said than done. 

Daisy's issue is that she won't start a fight but she'll be d*mn quick to settle one once it starts. She just has no tolerance, especially for little dogs under her if they start growling or snapping. In my mind, she's too big to have that attitude with small dogs ... but then I remember her with that small dog across the street that she had pinned to the ground by its neck in one flat second, that's all it took and the problem was settled. Very effective but not overkill .... yet, how do I get to the point that I'm comfortable with that  

I think I just scare too easily?


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

It's okay, I scare easy too, haha! Iorek is my first dog so I'm still learning all about his doggy body language and the body language of others. The more dominant dog in the group from today was doing some things that I instinctively would have stopped, but Iorek was actually fine and very quickly made the dog lose interest in him anyway. It's such a catch-22 because you can't find out that everything is fine unless you let them play but it's so nerve-wracking!


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Its a tough issue. What does everyone else here think about the dropping the leash advice? I'm interested to see what people have to say about it...


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

We were in an enclosed area by the way with the trainer and all of the owners (so five people collectively) with easy access to the dogs the entire time and they had been in the same room with each other for an hour previously. It wasn't like we dropped the leash in a huge open area with crazy dogs that hadn't already touched noses/sniffed butts/etc.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Mirinde said:


> We were in an enclosed area by the way with the trainer and all of the owners (so five people collectively) with easy access to the dogs the entire time and they had been in the same room with each other for an hour previously. It wasn't like we dropped the leash in a huge open area with crazy dogs that hadn't already touched noses/sniffed butts/etc.


Oh, I wasn't accusing you of anything! I'm so sorry if it came off that way! I'm sure you were perfectly safe, don't worry. I just genuinely wanted to hear what everyone else thinks about "dropping the leash" because I hear people give that advice pretty often.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

It's okay, I didn't take it that way! I just wanted to explain the situation so that someone doesn't stumble on this and think it's a good idea to drop their dogs leash on a public sidewalk if they're being dog-reactive haha!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

A positive experience is great! It will give you more confidence and Iorek will have more confidence too. I love to hear about good training experiences.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

mylissyk said:


> A positive experience is great! It will give you more confidence and Iorek will have more confidence too. I love to hear about good training experiences.


I agree! Dogs can sense how we feel, and if you tense up and worry every time you see another dog that there might be a problem, he will begin to tense up because of other dogs, and the problem could get worse. So confidence is definitely a plus!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

vcm5 said:


> I just genuinely wanted to hear what everyone else thinks about "dropping the leash" because I hear people give that advice pretty often.


I think that's a very good topic -- will you start one?


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## tanianault (Dec 11, 2010)

Grover and I had a couple of bad experiences with little dogs (Why, oh, why do so many small dog owners in my neighbourhood think they don't have to train, leash, watch their little dogs?!) and while I can't always drop my leash, I've definitely found it's helped to keep it as loose as possible. When I tense up on the leash, I'm tensing up on Grover, which in turn tenses him up. Also when the leash is loose, Grover has the option of approaching the small dog in an arc (which is much less threatening) or circling around behind me to put some space between him and the particularly yappy freaked out ones altogether. 

- Tania


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Was on the phone yesterday with someone I work with, she has one of those little designer breeds. She was telling us how her dog was being all snarly with this huge dog they had encountered, she thought it was funny and cute.

Wasn't the right time or place to comment but I do get so irritated with owners like this. Maybe because they don't have a big dog, they don't truly understand that such behavior really isn't cute at all ... maybe it's up to us to educate them, so our big dogs don't eat their small dogs


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

Jo Ellen said:


> Was on the phone yesterday with someone I work with, she has one of those little designer breeds. She was telling us how her dog was being all snarly with this huge dog they had encountered, she thought it was funny and cute.
> 
> Wasn't the right time or place to comment but I do get so irritated with owners like this. Maybe because they don't have a big dog, they don't truly understand that such behavior really isn't cute at all ... maybe it's up to us to educate them, so our big dogs don't eat their small dogs



I think anyone who would find that "cute" really needs a reality check. There are plenty of large dogs that would be sweet as pie to a relaxed, nonthreatening dog (large or small) but would become protective, defensive, and hostile towards a threatening dog. It is frustrating that as big dog owners, we constantly have to watch out for other peoples' untrained small dogs. After much asking, the neighbor still hasn't come over to let the dogs greet...which, in a sense, is his choice. But if he can not control when his dog gets out of the house, then both of our dogs are at risk and I feel like I should have some sort of input in that. I'm doing my part by shelling out money to take Iorek to structured environments where he can learn to be more sound and trustworthy around dogs of all sizes.

As a side note... my fiance is working again and we're a single car household so I have no way of making it to the small playgroups at Iorek's training facility. However, I did find a wonderful and experienced daycare here in town that does an evaluation period very similar to what we would have gotten through the small playgroup but they do them at a more convenient time for us. They also have their center sectioned off for big dogs, medium dogs, and small dogs. So even if Iorek will continue to have an issue with small dogs, he can still go and socialize and play with dogs closer to his size =) I'm really excited!


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