# Jenna attacked again!



## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Sounds like attention to Brandy can pull a trigger. Would Jenna of actually bit Brandy? It seems to me that if she wanted bite, she would have done it immediently.


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## heidi_pooh (Feb 9, 2006)

Might have just been the position that Brandy was in.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Jenna has never actually bitten Brandy, even during the worst attack. We've always been able to pull them apart rather quickly but you're right: she had plenty of time to do some harm. 

With more insight into her triggers, I'm hoping we can get better at keeping the peace.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I know you had a behaviorist...I'm curious what he thinks about regarding this behavior


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

We've actually consulted four. Two wanted to work with Brandy and said Jenna's behavior would fall in line. One gave us exercises to do involving sharing treats -- which has never been a problem. The last told us to re-home Jenna. 

A couple of additional things. 
1. Jenna growls angrily, but the act of trying to move her away appears to be what causes her to actually lunge and act on the threat. 
2. How can we tell the difference between intent to harm and posturing? When she sounds threatening, teeth are bared, and she's less than an inch from Brandy's face, we don't want to give her a chance to harm our baby. But we also don't want to create a situation where she decides not to give us as much warning.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Brandy's Mom said:


> We've actually consulted four. Two wanted to work with Brandy and said Jenna's behavior would fall in line. One gave us exercises to do involving sharing treats -- which has never been a problem. The last told us to re-home Jenna.


mmmmmmmmm...Doesn't look like a lot help is coming from the behaviorist area does it. I take it the last one thought re-homing where Jenna would be the only dog?

My only thought is that if Brandy gets older and decides to try a more dominate position.....Jenna could react with real biting. Thats a concern not based on experience. But it is something I would ask about.


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

It sounds like it's a good sign that Jenna didn't bite, even though she could have. As was said earlier, if she'd really wanted to inflict harm, she would have. Since she was doing so well over the past couple of months, maybe this was a little bit of "reverting" - something triggered an old memory of her old relationship with Brandy and she reacted in her old way. Maybe it is just a fluke, but I guess the key is to make sure those "old ways" don't resurface more permanently. Do/did you scold Jenna? Are you supposed to scold her if she acts like that towards Brandy? I read somewhere once that scolding aggression just breeds more aggression, but how else can you let Jenna know she was in the wrong, even by doggy rules ?

I thought it was strange that Jenna chose to pin Brandy down after Brandy was already in a willing belly up position, and in no way a threat to Jenna, except I guess if it was as a "thief" of your affection. I would just imagine that she'd give a warning at least before acting, like a growl if she felt like Brandy was stealing attention away from her.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Jenna was growling while I was brushing Brandy. I was trying to ignore it, just telling her to knock it off. 

I'm not sure if Brandy would have been hurt, had we not pulled Jenna off. Brandy was yelping like crazy.


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

I'm so sorry this happened. That's so stressful i'm sure. My concern is with the "again" part. Some dogs are just dog aggressive and no matter what we do, we can't change it. Maybe rehoming isn't really a bad idea. You can select the home yourself and be picky. I know i had a golden/husky mix and I rescued her. Every time Lexie would get near me, Shelby (the mix) would attack Lexie. I did separate them until I found the perfect home for her. She was a great dog. Loved children just needed to be in a one dog family. I eventually, after looking forever, found her a great home. This has been 4 years ago and Shelby is happy and healthy. It definately eliminated the stress in my life by finding her a home. I hope something works out for you. Good luck.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Jenna was adopted through a rescue group last year. We started to return her several times, but always backed down because we'd see some improvement. It was emotionally draining never knowing if she was staying or going. 

She was also a dejected, emotionally distant dog who hung her head and had obviously never had a belly rub in her life. She'd never let me out of her sight but didn't particularly enjoy being pet. 

When that all started to change as well, including cuddles and smiles, we decided that Jenna was home, no matter what. Today, she's devoted to me almost to the point of obsession. Which could, of course, be part of the problem. 

She just turned 8. However much longer she has, we decided she won't do well with the emotional upset of fosters and new families. She's healthy now, but we all know how fast some of these seniors can go downhill. We're going to do the best we can for her during whatever time she has left.


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

I think what you are doing for Jenna is amazing, and probably the right thing to do, at least for Jenna. For you and your family, including Brandy, it's probably extremely stressful. The good thing is that I'm sure Brandy, like every other dog, has a very short term memory - thus, the "acting normal" the next day. As long as she isn't hurt, she's pretty resilient, don't you think? The stress probably lands on you to be more vigilant, now that you know that Jenna may never be a totally calm dog around Brandy, or even around other dogs. She is clearly serious about her warnings. Maybe the growl was a sign to separate them while you continued to brush Brandy - even just reinforcing some distance between the two so that Jenna was forced to deal with the fact that it was Brandy's turn. I don't know, though - it is such a difficult situation, and I feel it's so easy to start to "believe" again. 

With Charlie, I can't ever let him out of my sight, even when he is in the house with my husband. He has growled at my husband once or twice and I just don't know. Even though he always looks loving and playful and gives him big wet doggy kisses all over, I just don't know. The few times I've turned my back on him, he's gotten into a fight with another dog, so I just can't ignore him. It was really sad for me, since he is my only dog and my first dog/Golden after a long time, but I've resigned myself to the fact that he isn't necessarily "normal" and comes with all sorts of baggage that at age 8, I just can't understand. Now my only job is to keep him as happy as I can while keeping everyone else safe. I think what you are doing with Jenna is wonderful, and that it will just require a lot of extra patience and vigilance and the acceptance that she might always be like this - at least you've got her toned down. With time, she might keep toning down, but you'll just never know. And that's ok - you and Brandy are committed to her and she will thrive in that environment.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Sashac, in many ways we are in similar situations. I hold my breath (and the leash) when Jenna meets children. So far, she's been extremely gentle. 

Someone pointed out that this recent attack happened just a week after we'd boarded Jenna for 8 days (the longest we've ever been away from her). Although she stayed at a 'country club' kennel, the stress may have contributed to her behavior.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Brandy's Mom said:


> Sashac, in many ways we are in similar situations. I hold my breath (and the leash) when Jenna meets children. So far, she's been extremely gentle.
> 
> Someone pointed out that this recent attack happened just a week after we'd boarded Jenna for 8 days (the longest we've ever been away from her). Although she stayed at a 'country club' kennel, the stress may have contributed to her behavior.


That is a good point, Also where did Brandy stay?


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

All three stayed at the same place but in separate kennels. I adore the facility because it is 20 acres of outdoors for the dogs to explore including swimming ponds. The dogs have four playtimes daily plus a 20-30 minute 'hike' in the woods. It's run by a couple who own and train goldens.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

The reason I was asking was because I thought if Brandy didnt stay there, then maybe Jenna was upset about having to go to this place...It sounds like a wonderful boarding place.


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

That's so interesting that you mentioned that - the two times Charlie growled at my husband while they were playing were both right after we brought him back from the kennels (they sound similar too!). I distinctly remember thinking either leaving us for a while made Charlie forget the "rules" including who was top dog around the house, and maybe also just brought out his wild character, being loose around lots of other dogs during the day. I know that sounds hokey - but something about the less controlled environment......

It's almost as if they forget the rules when it isn't being reinforced constantly, especially since they are older dogs and we are probably trying to teach new behaviors, i.e., being NICE! 

A note about the kennel, since Charlie has shown aggression towards other dogs - the owners are also trainers and own their own goldens - they are aware of his problems and watch him carefully when is allowed out to play with the other dogs. He had actually been fostered there before I adopted him, so it's a good situation.


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

One more point about the children - I often think it's both so great and yet so sad (for me at least) that one of the biggest selling points about Goldens is how wonderful they are with kids, compared to other dogs. Parents, and children, are never worried about Goldens, it seems, which is sometimes a curse for me - they don't hesitate to let their kids come running up to Charlie while we're on walks, as they scream "can we pet him, can we pet him" and flail their arms around...I can only imagine how tense Charlie gets around this. 

The funny part is NO ONE believes me when I say, "He is not good or safe around children so you should stay away, and keep your children away." One time, I actually had to get pretty vehement about it - one guy who kept saying, I'm sure it's fine, can she just pet him a little bit, while his daughter kept coming around to Charlie's tail and backside. I had to yell at him - doesn't he worry about his kid, when I'm flat out telling him, my dog is not safe?!?!

UGH!


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Small children, and even most adults, are not capable of accurately reading a dog's body language. They should trust what the owner says. But there will always be idiots out there who believe they are invincible.


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## mainegirl (May 2, 2005)

Do you think this could be a flashback? I'm sure your puppies equate cages (even great spa kennels) with their rescues? It might be that they relive that time, while they are there, or are resentful or revert back to old behavior after being there. Brandy & Jenna's mom.... Could you ask the kennel owner how the dog relates to them when she is there? Does she act herself when at the "spa" or is her behavior different? Maybe it takes a little time to get back from being master of her domain (at the spa) to being one of two... at your home. Are your two let out to play together when at the spa or are they kept isolated? 
beth, moose & sandy


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Actually the kennel owner commented that Jenna and Brandy were extremely well behaved. He noticed a huge improvement in Jenna from the last time she stayed there (in January). They were allowed to play together but I'm not sure to what extent. It would be a good question to ask.


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## kowey (Feb 28, 2006)

I am certainly not a dog-whisperer. I like dogs, but my knowledge of them is rudimentary.
In my opinion, if indeed this has any worth, Jenna's behaviour is something she has learned (herself?), and is something she will not readily abandon because it is self-rewarding:
1. You brush Brenda.
2. Jenna does not like it, probably jeaulous.
3. She growls.
4. you ignore it. (Mistake?)
5. Jenna has learned from experience that if her growling is not enough, stronger measurers are an option. She therefore attacks. No biting (yet?).
6. Jenna is succesfull: you stopped brushing + Brandy submits. Mission accomplished!

See how this behaviour is self-rewarding? And possibly dangerous too, may be next time she will skipp the growling... I think that Jenna will use this trick with children too.

But, as I said,I am not an expert.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Kowey, you make a lot of sense. We do try to reinforce our authority over the household -- but sometimes things happen so quickly that I don't think through my reaction. 

Her original trainer told me she uses one phrase, "Not in MY house you don't!" when a dog does something inappropriate. We've used that a lot with Jenna over this past year when it comes to how she treats Brandy. 

Her dog-aggression aside (and it IS going away) -- Jenna is remarkable. She never barks inappropriately. Never chews anything except her bones. Never gets into the trash or surfs the counters. She waits to be invited before jumping on the furniture. She sits without being asked before I feed her. Etc. Etc. She's got remarkable house manners. And she's great around the kids in the neighborhood -- including the little ones who try to hang from her neck. 

Lest you think she's just a senior dog who has no ambition -- she's ALWAYS ready to play an endless game of fetch. She loves to walk, and often initiates games of chase with Brandy.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Having thought about it though, Jenna never used to give a warning growl. She'd simply attack. So I guess that, in itself, is an improvement!


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