# Question on Judge Rules



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok, I am trying to download the rule book now...but I have to know. At a hunt test can you show under a judge who you pay for instruction? My understanding is you can't for obedience, is that the same for field?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Oh boy, well I don't remember the exact ruling on this for HTs, but I will say HTs are less strict than conformation or obedience in this regard. I know you can show under a judge you have purchased a dog from or a judge who has trained your dog but not within 6 months of the test. I have a feeling that your circumstance may fall under that.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

bwahaha! I am going to call him and ask.


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## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

For Tracking, you can not test under a Judge that you have trained with in the previous 30 days.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

If you are currently compensating this individual to train your dog, then no, you can't run that dog under them. Basically if a person has a vested interest in seeing a particular dog do well, they can't judge that particular dog. So If I sold you a dog, trained your dog or boarded your dog, within the last year I'm not eligible to judge that dog. 

The rules also are keyed to the *dog*, not the human. So if you have multiple dogs and I'm training one of them. I can judge your other dogs, just not the one I'm training.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

What is the time limit? He is not training my dog so much as he is training me (I am paying for lessons).


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

GoldenSail said:


> What is the time limit? He is not training my dog so much as he is training me (I am paying for lessons).


He can pinch your ear or send you to the back pile as many times as he wants and still judge your *dog*. The rule addresses breeding, boarding, owning or training a DOG. (Within the last twelve months)

There is nothing stated regarding teaching people. 

In your case whether or not you feel it is a conflict of interest is up to you and your trainer. The AKC Regulations and Guidelines don't address it.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Dang. I don't think I can...while he has not worked or handled her he has told me what to do. Honestly don't think you could say there is a conflict of interest. Regs say one whole year.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Well I can tell you I have shown under my instructor (although I never paid her) and she also bred my training partner's dog, and he showed under her. (hunt tests) Not an issue. I did not feel it was a conflict of interest as there are two judges who must agree. I thought it was 6 months not 12, but could be wrong. The rules spell it out.
HTs are a small community and it's not uncommon at all to run under friends, training partners, and the like.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

It does sound to me like a conflict of interest since he is taking money from you. 
The general rule, I've been told, is if you have to ask if it's a conflict of interest, chances are it is.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

If he has physically trained trained and run the dog then there might be a conflict. If he is training *you* while you are running the dog I don't see a conflict.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

We are going to consult with someone about the rules to be sure. He has never handled my dog. I have done all of the training.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

This is what I found for hunt tests.





> A dog is not eligible to be entered in any Hunting Test (Junior, Senior or Master) at a licensed or member Hunting Test if a Judge of that Test or any member of his family has owned, sold, held under lease, boarded, trained or handled the dog within one year of the starting date of the Hunting Test.



...and this for obedience...




> No dog may be entered or shown under a judge at an obedience trial if the dog has been owned, sold, held under lease, handled in the ring or has been regularly trained or instructed within six months prior to the date of the obedience trial by the judge or by any person residing in the same household as the judge. “Trained or instructed” applies equally to judges who train professionally or as amateurs and to judges who train individual dogs or train or instruct dogs in classes with or through their handlers (see “Glossary of Terms”).
> 
> 
> 
> No exhibitor may show a dog under a judge at an obedience or rally trial if the exhibitor has participated in a training session taught by that judge within thirty (30) days prior to the date of the event.



Obedience specifies instruction, but field does not. Field just says train. I will wait to see what they find out from asking a few judges but I can say he has not trained my dog...that's all been me. I've just received instruction on what to do.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

You are not the one whose reputation and/or integrity will be questioned, HE is. I would ask him how he feels about it, and go with whatever he says.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Oh I did ask him, he doesn't think it is a problem and it is judged by two people. He's going to ask a few other judges first.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Personally I think you are OK. This happens a lot in hunt tests, where people run under their training partners or instructors. If he is OK with it then you should be OK. You are within the rules.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

I am a judge and you are fine to run in accordance with the rules. 

Whether or not you are personally comfortable running under your trainer is up to you. In most cases training partners tend to be a bit more harsh in scoring because they see a dog often and know what they're capable of. When a dog doesn't work up to their ability the pencil can get a tad sharp.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

rhondas said:


> For Tracking, you can not test under a Judge that you have trained with in the previous 30 days.


Yep, that rule was put in place because there was a judge giving some kind of workshop right before a test on the same grounds as the test. So now obedience has the same rule.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Personally I will run under my friends and training partners. I will not run under the pro with whom I occaissionally day train as she prefers that and I do not want to put her in a sticky situation. That's just us though. Technically by the rules I could run under her as I handle my dog in training, but we do not want even the appearance of impropriety--unfortunately there is one "pro" we've seen who frequently has students running under them and that is the only time some of those dogs pass...


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I know in agility people do it all the time, run under their trainers. Just my opinion, rule or not, I think it is wrong. I know how my trainer feels about me, otherwise I wouldn't stay there, I want 'other' professional opinions when I am testing. Besides, my trainer might be actually harder on me. 

We have a facility that hosts TONS of trials. The manager of the facility judges many trials there. I will not run under her at her own place. I think that is wrong. I don't mind her as a judge, just not at her location. In horses you can not ride in front of a judge if you were in their training within six months. Seminars are the exception to the rule, you can seminar under someone then show under them.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

After consulting with several judges the conclusion was that I can show under him and be within the rules because he has not trained or handled my dog--I have. He probably is a tougher judge than most and it is co-judged. The thing with hunt tests is not only is it a relatively small world and we have very few opportunities close to home as it is where I'm at.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Maxs Mom said:


> I know in agility people do it all the time, run under their trainers. Just my opinion, rule or not, I think it is wrong.


Oh man?! Really?! Why?

I have had two agility trainers over the years and both are AKC judges. I like that because it means they know AKC rules and can prepare me for AKC trials... I have shown under both of them... I think agility it much more black/white then other venues... The rules say "No judge may judge a dog at a licensed or member club trial if he or she or any member of his or her family owns or co-owns the dog." There is NOTHING about training...

Sorry for the tangent... I just wanted to comment re: agility... It sounds like you are in the clear for the hunt test. Good luck!


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