# Breeder did not send AKC papers and is not responding to me:(



## zjsmommy (Jan 10, 2008)

We have had Cooper for over 2 week snow and we LOVE him! However...I keep contacting his previous owner/breeder about the whereabouts of his AKC registration papers and pedigree that we were supposed to get and we have gotten NO response from her. I have sent several emails and even left phone messages. She has yet to return a single call or email about the papers.

We waited several weeks for Cooper and she always called us right back or emailed us right back before. However....now I just cannot seem to get ahold of her. I started asking about the papers the night we got him when they were not with the rest of his paperwork.

My husband is FURIOUS and thinks I am being WAY too patient. She was SO wonderful to work with though and I just do not want things to get ugly.
But I do not know what options I have. I was promised these items and now I do not have them and cannot get her to respond to me. I AM HOPING it is a mixup because she was so great I do not know what to do!


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## Kzwicker (Aug 14, 2007)

Do you know where she lives?? I dont know what to tell you on that one, but there are other members who have had the same problem. I hope you get them soon!


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

very sorry to hear this.... in general, you should ask and expect that the breeder gives you the registration papers when you pick up your puppy to take home, for this very reason! not to sound negative, but i would think at this point that you will be lucky to get those registration papers at all, or even get the breeder to call you back.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

what you SHOULD do though, is report this breeder to the AKC and Better Business Bureau, and if you want to, perhaps think of filing a suit in small claims court? i know it's a pain in the ass.. but there is no reason this "breeder" should get away with this.


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## mdoats (Jun 7, 2007)

The breeder that I got Rookie from doesn't send you the papers until you send proof that the dog has been spayed/neutered. She requires that her pups are spayed/neutered by 1 year old. I emailed her and let her know that I would like to wait until Rookie is 18 months old and she said that would be okay but that I wouldn't get his papers until I send proof that he has been neutered.


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## videochicke (Dec 29, 2007)

Could be the breeder is away. Many go on a nice winter vacation.


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## Kzwicker (Aug 14, 2007)

videochicke said:


> Could be the breeder is away. Many go on a nice winter vacation.


That's a good point.. Could she be away for a while?


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## MySweetPhoebe (Jun 25, 2006)

mdoats said:


> The breeder that I got Rookie from doesn't send you the papers until you send proof that the dog has been spayed/neutered. She requires that her pups are spayed/neutered by 1 year old. I emailed her and let her know that I would like to wait until Rookie is 18 months old and she said that would be okay but that I wouldn't get his papers until I send proof that he has been neutered.


This is exactly what Phoebe's breeder does...as soon as I sent them her spay certificate the papers came immediately.

Check your contract and see if anything like this is stated in it....even if this is the case, there is no excuse for her not to contact you unless she is dealing with sick relatives, etc...that is always a possiblility... good luck!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

I wouldn't panic, yet. Like the others have mentioned, maybe it's as simple as she's just out of town right now.

When you picked up your pup, was it just a matter of her not having the individual registration forms from the AKC yet? We had that problem with Riley, as well, and after a month with no papers, I was getting pretty nervous.
If you have the sire and dam's information, and the breeder's name and address, you can try sending an email to the AKC, to see if everything is in order and it's just a matter of the forms not being returned to the breeder yet. That's what I did, and it put my mind at ease. They were very helpful and let me know that the proper paperwork HAD been filed and was still being processed. (There was a mistake holding things up, because the breeder had filled something out incorrectly when she registered the litter.)
Good luck! I hope everything works out okay.


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## zjsmommy (Jan 10, 2008)

I doubt she is away! They have a new litter of puppies that she has advertised.
Also...there was never any spay or neuter contract mentioned. They are limited registration so I would not be able to register any of his puppies. Sheis just simply not returning my calls or emails. All of her emails go to her blackberry and she always "types" back from her phone to send you a short email saying she is busy if she is in fact busy.
But I hope you are right


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## Kzwicker (Aug 14, 2007)

I would show up at her house (with a big man) and ask for the papers.. or demand an explination..


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

if it has in fact been as long as you say it has with no return contact from the breeder, i would say its time to contact AKC and see if they can give you any insight on what's up. for all you know, she could be banned from the AKC and lying to her puppy-buyers about it.. as is the case with a previous member and breeder here. not trying to scare you, just trying to be realistic so you don't get your hopes up for something that may never happen.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

MySweetPhoebe said:


> This is exactly what Phoebe's breeder does...as soon as I sent them her spay certificate the papers came immediately.
> 
> Check your contract and see if anything like this is stated in it....even if this is the case, there is no excuse for her not to contact you unless she is dealing with sick relatives, etc...that is always a possiblility... good luck!


This is interesting Raini. I had no idea this is how they handle the paperwork because Tucker was almost a year old and had to be re-registered. Rose did all of the paperwork for me.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Are the parents registered? If so, I would not panic. The breeder may be busy with the next litter. BUT! we usually have the litter all registered by a few weeks old. One possible sorce of delay, may be a disagreement with the stud dog owner (if that is not the same person). Many times a stud dog owner won't sign off if they have not been paid. There are all sorts of possibilities.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

I didn't get Cole's papers for a month after we got him. The breeder had just sent in the litter registration prior to us getting him. Then the individual registrations went to her from the AKC and she had to mail them to us. Sometimes it takes a little time.

What did she/he say when you got the pup? Any time frame about when to expect the papers?

I also know of a story of a breeder who was contacted by the AKC and wanted a DNA sample from the sire before they'd issue the papers. Turned out the sire of record, wasn't the actual sire after all! OOPS! The true sire was an excellent dog, but it did hold up the paperwork for a while while everybody got their ducks in a row. Plus there were co-owners that had to sign off on everything, who lived in a different state.


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## For the Love of Goldens (Dec 11, 2006)

zjsmommy said:


> I doubt she is away! They have a new litter of puppies that she has advertised.
> Also...there was never any spay or neuter contract mentioned. They are limited registration so I would not be able to register any of his puppies. Sheis just simply not returning my calls or emails. All of her emails go to her blackberry and she always "types" back from her phone to send you a short email saying she is busy if she is in fact busy.
> But I hope you are right


I know this sounds sneaky, but have a friend of yours contact her saying that they are interested in one of the pups in the new litter. That way you can see if she is avoiding you or not. Maybe have your friend ask about papers for the new pup too. Just a thought.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Did you get the pup as a potential breeding prospect? If not, I have to say, to me, AKC paperwork isn't really all that important. I mean, it doens't gaurantee that you have a healthy dog. All it means is that somebody else agrees that the parents of your dog were both Goldens.

Worst case, if you got her as a pet or even a performance animal, you can always ILP her with the AKC, which is how they 'register' pure bred dogs who have been rescued or who otherwise don't have papers.

If you want to research lineage on the dog, if you have reg numbers for both the parents, you can look up info on K9Data.com or even purchase pedigrees from the AKC.

Sucks if the breeder is stiffing you for the papers, but like the others said, it may just be that she's busy, etc. But even if she is full on stiffing you for the papers, I'm not sure it makes much of a difference. Just my .02.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

While AKC papers do not guarantee quality or health, they do matter. They are a "title" of sorts, proving ownership. If you've paid for a registerable purebred dog, you should get the papers. If you choose to do any AKC events, and your dog is purebred and registerable, why go through getting an ILP number when AKC papers should be, and were said to be, available? Maybe it is more the principle of it, but if you've paid for it you are entitled to it. Too many "breeders" are selling puppies using the names of resprected organizations (AKC, OFA, CERF) to "legitimize" themselves when in fact they do not have any of the documentation or clearances. This amounts to fraud, and it is happening more and more frequently.


http://www.akc.org/pdfs/public_education/register.pdf


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## GardenPaws (Nov 28, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> While AKC papers do not guarantee quality or health, they do matter. They are a "title" of sorts, proving ownership. If you've paid for a registerable purebred dog, you should get the papers. If you choose to do any AKC events, and your dog is purebred and registerable, why go through getting an ILP number when AKC papers should be, and were said to be, available?


 
Your comment is spot on PointGold! I was lied to and shown falsified OFA papers 20 years ago by a breeder in MI. I never forgot that and I never hesitate to tell who she is if asked! Just because someone is "NICE" it does not always mean reputable.


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## gold'nchocolate (May 31, 2005)

Which area of the country do you live in? I agree with For the Love of Goldens...have a friend call asking for info on getting a pup from the new litter. You could even have her make an appointment to check out the pups and you could go with her, then...."SURPRISE--remember *me*!!!!"


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## Marie Welch (Jan 25, 2008)

Bonnie's papers came with her taped to the top of the cage she flew in. We had to send in the money to have her registered. This is our first experience with getting papers so I have no advice.


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## Michelle4 (Dec 1, 2007)

mdoats said:


> The breeder that I got Rookie from doesn't send you the papers until you send proof that the dog has been spayed/neutered. She requires that her pups are spayed/neutered by 1 year old. I emailed her and let her know that I would like to wait until Rookie is 18 months old and she said that would be okay but that I wouldn't get his papers until I send proof that he has been neutered.


 
Same thing with my breeder.


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## zjsmommy (Jan 10, 2008)

Thanks for all of your advice

No I was ont planning on breeding Cooper. I was however interested in training him to be a therapy dog.

I will take your advice and have a friend of mine call or email. Atleast that will let me know whether she is not returning anyones calls or emails or just mine LOL

Thanks to everyone who responded and I will definately keep you posted!!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

zjsmommy said:


> Thanks for all of your advice
> 
> No I was ont planning on breeding Cooper. I was however interested in training him to be a therapy dog.
> 
> ...


 
I personally do not think that this is going to get you anywhere. So you find out that she is simply ignoring you. You are still in the same boat. 
I would suggest sending her a registered letter indicating that you have made many attempts to contact her in regards to getting the promised & paid for paperwork, and give her X# of days to respond, after which time you will contact the AKC. You indicated to me that you have the names of the sire and dam, so the AKC should be able to tell you if in fact the litter was ever registered or not. If you find that in fact the litter was not registered, then legal action can be pursued.
All the stealth and spy stuff seems silly to me. Be upfront and demand what you paid for. Any honest breeder would not want their name and reputation besmerched and if in fact the registration papers exist would get them to you immediately, along with an apology, if threatened with legal action.
It really makes me angry to see how often this is happening to people, and frankly, tired of the fact that it reflects poorly on ALL breeders, even the good honest ones.


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## zjsmommy (Jan 10, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I personally do not think that this is going to get you anywhere. So you find out that she is simply ignoring you. You are still in the same boat.
> I would suggest sending her a registered letter indicating that you have made many attempts to contact her in regards to getting the promised & paid for paperwork, and give her X# of days to respond, after which time you will contact the AKC. You indicated to me that you have the names of the sire and dam, so the AKC should be able to tell you if in fact the litter was ever registered or not. If you find that in fact the litter was not registered, then legal action can be pursued.
> All the stealth and spy stuff seems silly to me. Be upfront and demand what you paid for. Any honest breeder would not want their name and reputation besmerched and if in fact the registration papers exist would get them to you immediately, along with an apology, if threatened with legal action.
> It really makes me angry to see how often this is happening to people, and frankly, tired of the fact that it reflects poorly on ALL breeders, even the good honest ones.


Thanks for your advice! I am just totally awful at confrontation and try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I think my husband is on the same page as you though and feels like she should return our calls. I am still looking through my saved emails for the one with the Sire and Dam's names. I corresponded with her for close to a month and have an entire folder full of her emails that I saved. Thanks again!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

zjsmommy said:


> Thanks for your advice! I am just totally awful at confrontation and try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I think my husband is on the same page as you though and feels like she should return our calls. I am still looking through my saved emails for the one with the Sire and Dam's names. I corresponded with her for close to a month and have an entire folder full of her emails that I saved. Thanks again!


This can be done professionally, not confrontationally. You paid for a product, you should expect to get what you paid for. An example for a letter might be:

Dear Ms._____________:

We are very happy with our puppy Cooper. He is a wonderful, fun puppy. We are concerned, however, that after several attempts to contact you in regards to his AKC registration paperwork, we have not heard from you. Hopefully all is well. We would like to get him registered as soon as possible. If there is some problem with the paperwork, please let us know when it will be rectified. We would like to hear from you asap so that we do not have to contact the AKC to get whatever we need to do get him registered. 
Please respond within 10 days, after which time we will contact the AKC to get the required registration documents to do this ourselves. We simply want what we were promised at the time that we committed to buying our puppy. 

Again, we hope that all is well and look forward to your response.

Sincerely,

____________


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

zjsmommy,

First, welcome and I am so sorry to see that yet, another puppy buyer is going through this.

I totally agree with Pointgold! Be up front and nicely demand what should have already been given to you. If there is a problem then she should at least tell you about it so you can work things out. If its a problem she was already aware of then I would do just as Laura said and give her x number of days then contact AKC. Its not going to get you very far to have a friend call to see if she talks to them. It will just make you madder to know that she returned your driends phone call and not yours - and - you'll still be in the same situation.

Always better to meet these things head on!

Good luck

Jazzys Mom


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## zjsmommy (Jan 10, 2008)

*Update*


Pointgold went out of her way to try and help me figure out this situation. Upon her looking into things further, we found out that Cooper's Sire has not had a litter registered with the AKC since 2005. I am just in tears and so upset. Not that his papers matter that much to me...just at the fact that someone could be so dishonest and prey upon gullable people like myself. To top it off my husband is just furious and upset with me for not getting a puppy locally. We looked locally for 6 months but could not find a puppy who had already been trained. (We have a 2 year old and wanted an older puppy who was trained and out of his jumping stages etc.)
I just wanted to update everyone. I know it is not the end of the world but I am just so so upset and mainly just feel dumb for being so trusting.
I am going to let me husband deal with it from here on out as Pointgold suggested with a certified letter.
The AKC said there is nothing they can do. I just want to thank Laura again for taking her own time to help me out! It shows a lot about her character!! On a positive note.....Cooper is just a doll and ATLEAST he is trained as she stated! and he is gentle and so loving! 
Off to take some deep breaths....


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Pointgold is a wealth of information - I am so glad you were able to figure some things out. I am so sorry that you are disappointed, it's just awful that there seem to be so many breeders out there who take advantage of trusting goodhearted people. A lot of info has been shared on this forum and many people have learned so much. I know it may be little consolation for you, but someone is reading your story now and learning from it. Thank you for sharing it.

I look forward to seeing pictures and getting to know you better!


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## goldentails87 (Feb 1, 2008)

zjsmommy said:


> Pointgold went out of her way to try and help me figure out this situation. Upon her looking into things further, we found out that Cooper's Sire has not had a litter registered with the AKC since 2005. I am just in tears and so upset. Not that his papers matter that much to me...just at the fact that someone could be so dishonest and prey upon gullable people like myself. To top it off my husband is just furious and upset with me for not getting a puppy locally. We looked locally for 6 months but could not find a puppy who had already been trained. (We have a 2 year old and wanted an older puppy who was trained and out of his jumping stages etc.)
> I just wanted to update everyone. I know it is not the end of the world but I am just so so upset and mainly just feel dumb for being so trusting.
> I am going to let me husband deal with it from here on out as Pointgold suggested with a certified letter.
> The AKC said there is nothing they can do. I just want to thank Laura again for taking her own time to help me out! It shows a lot about her character!! On a positive note.....Cooper is just a doll and ATLEAST he is trained as she stated! and he is gentle and so loving!
> Off to take some deep breaths....


I am so sorry you had to go through this! Could you please give us the breeders name and location so that we could all pass it on and hopfully no one else would have to go through this.


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## zjsmommy (Jan 10, 2008)

*Another update*

I wrote a very nice but to the point email to the breeder. After 2 weeks of no response about papers she responded. She stated that she was away at a funeral and that she is in the process of registering the litter. She said that he did in fact have hip clearances and was faxing the information right now. (I am not at home though.) Oh my gosh I am going to get an ucler. :doh:
I feel AWFUL if this is the case. However...I di dnot hear from her for 2 weeks and the AKC said he did not have any litters. I think that is cause for a little bit of panic. Will keep you all posted...again.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Good to hear that she is finally responding. AKC said that he did not have any litters because she is apparently only just now registering the litter, which at least on the surface seems quite a bit late. AKC is really fast with litter registrations even when they are done by regular mail. I live in Wisconsin, mailed my paperwork to North Carolina on a Monday and recieved an email from the AKC on that very Thursday, with the litter registration number and all the information. Paperwork arrived just a few days later-all in all, only about 10 days start to finish. And it is much faster online.

Make sure that the clearances on hips and elbows are OFA certificates, assuming they were done in the US, and not just something from vet. Eyes should be done by a veterinary opthamologist, on a CERF form. Heart should be done by a veterinary cardiologist and also done on an OFA form.

Both parents need all the above clearances. Many breeders also do thyroid, which is nice to have as well.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Cooper's breeder, in her none too kind response to his owner, told her that Cooper's sire has an OFA Prelim - interesting, as the dog was born on 1/12/2004 - why would she breed a dog that age BEFORE having done hips? Not to mention that the OFA does in fact list prelims in the database and that dog is not there. Not hips/elbow, heart, or eyes.
Further, this "breeder" told Cooper's owner that "you can register a dog ANY time as long as the parents are both registered." Well, this is partially true. A litter must be registered within 6 months of whelping. An application to register a litter AFTER 6 months _may _be considered by the AKC, but will include a penalty fee of $65 PLUS the regular $25.00 + $2.00 per puppy fee. Why on earth would any breeder wait 6 months to register a litter? There is no reason for it. The AKC Customer Care representative that I spoke with (Sandy, in Raleigh - she's my favorite ) told me that there is no litter whelped on 6/28/07 sired by that dog (and I provided her with his registered name and AKC registration number) in the AKC database. The breeder gave Cooper's owner a number, which is unlike any AKC number I have ever seen, nor any OFA number I have ever seen (no letters preceeding the numbers) so I don't know what she is trying to pull.
THis offends me terribly as a breeder. Not to mention that this breeder is one who is marketing "Rare White Goldens."

I am so glad that zjsmommy is happy with Cooper. He is a lucky dog to have a great family. They don't deserve this kind of treatment. No one does who purchases a purebred dog in good faith.

This breeder is most assuredly not being forthcoming.


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## norabrown (Jul 20, 2007)

PointGold, thank you for being so helpful! 

Zjsmommy, I'm sorry you ended up going through this.


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

That was so nice of you to help her out on this PG! I'm so sorry things aren't going easy on getting coopers info


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> Cooper's breeder, in her none too kind response to his owner, told her that Cooper's sire has an OFA Prelim - interesting, as the dog was born on 1/12/2004 - why would she breed a dog that age BEFORE having done hips? Not to mention that the OFA does in fact list prelims in the database and that dog is not there. Not hips/elbow, heart, or eyes.
> Further, this "breeder" told Cooper's owner that "you can register a dog ANY time as long as the parents are both registered." Well, this is partially true. A litter must be registered within 6 months of whelping. An application to register a litter AFTER 6 months _may _be considered by the AKC, but will include a penalty fee of $65 PLUS the regular $25.00 + $2.00 per puppy fee. Why on earth would any breeder wait 6 months to register a litter? There is no reason for it. The AKC Customer Care representative that I spoke with (Sandy, in Raleigh - she's my favorite ) told me that there is no litter whelped on 6/28/07 sired by that dog (and I provided her with his registered name and AKC registration number) in the AKC database. The breeder gave Cooper's owner a number, which is unlike any AKC number I have ever seen, nor any OFA number I have ever seen (no letters preceeding the numbers) so I don't know what she is trying to pull.
> THis offends me terribly as a breeder. Not to mention that this breeder is one who is marketing "Rare White Goldens."
> 
> ...


Oh no-this sounds all too familiar!

What are the names of Cooper's parents?


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Ruh Roh, I was thinking the same thing Linda. Good luck hopefully this gets resolved.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> Oh no-this sounds all too familiar!
> 
> What are the names of Cooper's parents?


I was able to find the sire on k9 data using his call name (all that Cooper's owner had). The dam is another story. Her call name is Jewel (or Jewell). She is apparently a German import. When Cooper's owner, now armed with a bit more ammunition, questioned the breeder's story, she was told that "the delay is due to issues with transferring the foreign registration to AKC". Germany's stud books are recognized by the AKC. No way was there a delay of over 6 months... Here is what the AKC requires to register a foreign born dog:

1. The imported dog is of a breed eligible for individual registration in the AKC Stud Book.

2. The dog is physically in the United States even if the owner is a foreign resident. *Note:* If the current owner is not a resident of the US, we would require proof that the dog was or is in the US. We will generally check the dogs show records in-house to see if the dog has been shown. We would also accept a statement from a Vet stating that the dog was examined in the US.

3. The imported dog was registered in country of birth with a Foreign Registry Organization listed in Section IV of this pamphlet. *Note:* If the dog was imported to another foreign country before coming into the US we would require a copy of the pedigree from both the birth country and the interim country. 

4. The AKC application form is accompanied by a legible photocopy of a complete official three-generation Pedigree and certification from the Foreign Registry Organization. The dog must have an unrestricted registration. *Note:* The complete 3 generation pedigree would require names & numbers for all dogs listed. Also, we do not require an original pedigree if the dog is from Canada, Bermuda or Mexico. They may submit a legible photocopy. In the case that both parents are already AKC registered they may omit the pedigree, but must still submit a copy of the Registration Certificate. 

5. The AKC application and the foreign registration must reflect identical ownership.

6. The dog has been positively and permanently identified (microchip or tattoo) prior to being registered. 

​The fee to register a foreign dog is $50.​


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Interesting-a lot of the less than reputable breeders up here are importing dogs from Romania, Sweden, etc. I have yet to see American clearances done on them, and rarely do they even list clearances from the country of origin.

They can then advertise that they have European imports, and that seems to give them a lot of cachet in the eyes of the puppy buying public.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> They can then advertise that they have European imports, and that seems to give them a lot of cachet in the eyes of the puppy buying public.


Well EVERYBODY knows how much sounder, healthier, long lived, better temperment, block head, cobblier, better retiever (you name it) any imported dog is than those in North America. Right??? :doh:


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> Well EVERYBODY knows how much sounder, healthier, long lived, better temperment, block head, cobblier, better retiever (you name it) any imported dog is than those in North America. Right??? :doh:[/quote
> 
> SO much sounder that they don't even need to have health clearances.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

zjsmommy,

I am so sorry! You must be so confused and beside yourself by now. Pointgold is a wonderful breeder and she was so very nice to help you. On a happier note, I am glad you are happy with Cooper. In the end, unless you got him for conformation showing, the papers won't make the dog. Maybe something will come of your letter to the breeder, and I call her a breeder very loosely.

PG - How nice of you to do all that for her. Thank you!

Jazzys Mom


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I'm sorry you are disappointed...but I am glad you are getting answers. Even if they aren't the answers you wanted, it might help you get past this quicker so you can enjoy your Cooper more.

Its a good lesson for us all to learn from and don't kick yourself....this isn't uncommon unfortunately.


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