# English vs. American goldens



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Chloe's dad was a pure white what they call english golden. Her mom was an american gold colored. I have read stuff about differences but I dont believe them. Chloe is not a calm puppy but she isnt high energy either. All I really know is her blonde color is really pretty. She had the black pigment but that has lightened on her belly. She still looks like she has black eyes when wet. Her eyes have lightened also.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

I think some of us want what is more "rare". So in the U.S., the English kind are sought after at higher prices, whereas in Australia I think it's more common to see lighter goldens. I like blonde goldens a lot more now obviously because I have one, but I still have a slight preference towards golden goldens. Love all the colours though. 

I also think temperament is an individual thing. Some of Sunny's friends from the same litter are CRAZY and super high-energy! But Sunny is super laid-back and lazy.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sorry. The Snitker thing is baloney .


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## Boaz (Mar 28, 2015)

I agree with some of the differences listed in the above graph. The eyes of the english cream are round, the muzzle is wider. The body is also longer in the english cream. I've had two american and now have a 5 1/2 old english cream. My american puppies were crazy hyper. My english cream is much more mild mannered. I don't understand the elitist mentality as they are all dogs but I do see what you are talking about.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

I think that people still use the word "baloney"


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

It is a very pretty infographic but, it is malarkey. 

Look at well breed European dogs actually winning overseas and you will find there is much more in common with their American counterparts than different. And pointing to a small survey of dog generally not from the same country as yours (most imports are not from the UK) and then comparing it to a dissimilar and similarly small survey In the US is not accurate. 

I tried to discuss that "more alike than different" here http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...tyle-vs-american-style-how-much-grooming.html

I appricate a well made dog regardless of country of origin.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

What about the Australian Golden?


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

You're right this has been discussed many times here before including the graphic that you've shown. It looks very informed and authoritative but is clearly biased in favor of what it refers to as the "English Cream". If you compare how it characterizes "American" Goldens to the GRCA breed standard you will see in numerous cases it is inconsistent with the breed standard. For instance with respect to eyes, the breed standard says:


*Eyes *-- friendly and intelligent in expression, medium large with dark, close-fitting rims, set well apart and reasonably deep in sockets. Color preferably dark brown; medium brown acceptable. *Slant eyes and narrow, triangular eyes detract from correct expression and are to be faulted. *No white or haw visible when looking straight ahead. Dogs showing evidence of functional abnormality of eyelids or eyelashes (such as, but not limited to, trichiasis, entropion, ectropion, or distichiasis) are to be excused from the ring.

With respect to coat the breed standard says:

_*Coat *_-- Dense and water repellent with good undercoat. *Outer coat firm and resilient, neither coarse nor silky, lying close to body; may be straight or wavy.* Untrimmed natural ruff; moderate feathering on back of forelegs and on under-body; heavier feathering on front of neck, back of thighs and underside of tail.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Oops, glitched and posted before I was ready.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Meet my blond (light gold) dog. He has a nice wide head and strong, broad muzzle. He has a level topline (most of the time, still going through a few final growth stages). He is as mellow as can be around the house and calm and gentle in meeting new people for the most part: there's some occasional outbursts of energy on rainy days or super busy days where he doesn't get some good outside time -- he is less than a year old after all. His hind end is sturdy and strong. His eyes are not slanted. He is from a line of long lived dogs (much more likely to average out in the 12.3 range than the 10.8 range) with relatively low incidences of cancer.









He is from American lines and yes, he is sticking his tongue out at the infographic you posted It's wrong on pretty much all counts. I would recommend you choose better sources if you wish learn more about the differences between styles of GR. a great place to start would be the actual breed standards of each country. Additionally, there's such a wealth of information on this forum regarding this topic, including former responses to this chart, what is incorrectly used as "proof" that English goldens live longer, and the actual traits and standards as they exist in these different parts of the world. We're not going to reinvent the wheel here. You're unlikely to get any responses that haven't been given a dozen or so times already on GRF. 

The bottom line generally goes something like this: there is nothing wrong with an "English" style dog or with anyone having a preference in the color or style dog they would prefer. HOWEVER having a "rare" or different style dog does not relieve the breeder of their duty to match the dogs well, perform at minimum the 4 basic clearances advised by the GRCA (yes, even if they imported the dog and claim clearances were done elsewhere), or provide honest information from reliable and ethical sources to their puppy buyers. This type of sales schtick -- complete with lies and distortion of facts -- is wrong, no matter what style of dog one is trying to sell.

Julie and the boys


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## Turner4 (May 16, 2015)

You might want to check out the information on this website (Enter and then click on the link for English Creme Golden Retriever) English Golden Retriever puppies in Michigan

This breeder has some great information on this issue.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I think the main thing is breeder should not be charging out of this world prices for what they consider rare. Because they aren't. And a lot of times these are unethical breeders charging these super high prices.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

The "info graphic" seems to imply that there is a some sort of "standard" for an "english cream". As far as I know, there is no english cream standard as opposed to the AKC standard, CKC standard, UK standard, etc.
Here is a good link that lists a number of international kennel clubs, presumably with information about various standards ---> 
Index
I continue to believe that "english cream" (or creme) is a marketing ploy.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

The problem is they spread A LOT of false or skewed information and then tend to take an "elitist" attitude that "their dogs are better". It's a lot of propaganda and very little science. _*Some*_ of the info is right, "English" goldens *do* _tend_ to be lighter in color. "American" goldens *do* _tend_ to be darker. There _is_ a slight difference in the standards (but keep in mind most of their own dogs are not good representatives of their own standard). The health info is *drastically* misinterpreted. 60% of *all* goldens die of cancer, regardless of whether or not it is "English" or "American". Granted, the rate of hemangiosarcoma appears to be higher in "American" goldens and lymphoma appears to be higher in "English" goldens. But the overall rate (as far as we know, the UK has never done as broad a study as we have in America) is the same. 

What they don't tell you is because they breed almost solely for color they often neglect much more important factors. Their dogs (unfortunately) often come from the worst of the worst breeders and byb's in Europe/the UK. Good breeders don't sell puppies to scam byb's and puppy mills overseas. Which means shady breeders (or worse, puppy mills) are their only source of puppies. They also tend to greatly skimp on health clearances (which should be the bare minimum for a good breeder).

I would also encourage everyone who is interested in "English" goldens to read up on soundness (this article is great What is a “sound” dog? | Ruffly Speaking). Unfortunately many of the "English creme" breeders do not pay any attention to soundness and it comes through in their dogs. Compare any breeder's dogs you are interested to these dogs (who happen to be amazing examples of the Golden Retriever breed and from *good* European lines) and see if they hold up. 

Timmy Pedigree: Can. CH. OTCH. Camrose Betimmy Am. UD, Am./Can. OS
Sydney BRANDEGOLD GOLDEN RETRIEVERS | SYDNEY
Davey* Can. Ch. Dewmist Davenport Can. OS - Kyon Kennels 
Shea** Pedigree: Can. Bda. CH. Mjaerumhogda's Kyon Flying Surprise Can. CDX OS SDHF
Nicolaas Pedigree: Can. Ch. Ramchaine Magnetic CGC CCA
I could go on... My point being there are many, many *gorgeous*, well bred goldens from Europe and the UK, they just aren't bred solely for color and touting false claims. 

*I am biased on Davey, he is in my Reagan's pedigree.
**Again I am biased, he is in one of my dogs pedigree.

They also have a tendency to overcharge (I've seen prices upwards of $2,500) which is a big pet peeve of mine.

ETA: I wrote this not realizing the op was in Australia. I automatically assumed they were talking about the "English Creme" breeders in America, and so this post is directed that way. I have absolutely nothing against well bred goldens in other countries and bred to their standards.


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

momo_ said:


> I know there are some threads on this topic, but I'd like to resurface it in hopes of hearing different opinions from new people.
> 
> Now, I know we're all a little bias but I'd like to hear some of your thoughts about the differences without offending anyone!
> 
> ...


And a very intelligent, beautiful "English" at that! And just so the meaning of this compliment isn't debated 100 ways til Sunday by others:doh:, I am talking about your impressive training video! 
RE: Millie....those glasses would NEVER rise to the elite GRCA breed standard of the "AMERICAN" better dressed golden! Way too pretentious! ::wavey:

*Just a reminder, this was a post by an American.... owned by an English (Cream) who really likes Goldens that look like Jersey 's young bird dog on the right (in sig)*


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Meh. It's all marketing nonsense, to me. Sure, there are differences in the UK breed standard from the US breed standard, but so what? It's all just a matter of style, and that's a personal preference. From what I understand, the claimed health differences are not real, but I really haven't done the work to find out because I really don't care that much.

I just know what I like: a rugged, athletic retriever who loves water and can go all day long, and who is affectionate, eager, kind and trustworthy. I don't go for the long, flowing coats. I don't go for an overdone dog. I go for an athlete. And color doesn't matter to me, though I have to admit that I now kind of prefer dark coats, though I used to prefer light coats, but in the end that's merely an afterthought not a priority.

Is that American or English? Who cares!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Eowyn said:


> The problem is they spread A LOT of false or skewed information and then tend to take an "elitist" attitude that "their dogs are better". It's a lot of propaganda and very little science. _*Some*_ of the info is right, "English" goldens *do* _tend_ to be lighter in color. "American" goldens *do* _tend_ to be darker. There _is_ a slight difference in the standards (but keep in mind most of their own dogs are not good representatives of their own standard). The health info is *drastically* misinterpreted. 60% of *all* goldens die of cancer, regardless of whether or not it is "English" or "American". Granted, the rate of hemangiosarcoma appears to be higher in "American" goldens and lymphoma appears to be higher in "English" goldens. But the overall rate (as far as we know, the UK has never done as broad a study as we have in America) is the same.
> 
> What they don't tell you is because they breed almost solely for color they often neglect much more important factors. Their dogs (unfortunately) often come from the worst of the worst breeders and byb's in Europe/the UK. Good breeders don't sell puppies to scam byb's and puppy mills overseas. Which means shady breeders (or worse, puppy mills) are their only source of puppies. They also tend to greatly skimp on health clearances (which should be the bare minimum for a good breeder).
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this! Davey is the one that brings the English style into my puppy's pedigree, too. I have seen pictures and know a lot about of his son, Cedar's Limited Edition, but never knew anything of him.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

cubbysan said:


> Thanks for posting this! Davey is the one that brings the English style into my puppy's pedigree, too. I have seen pictures and know a lot about of his son, Cedar's Limited Edition, but never knew anything of him.


I think it's grandson, Eddies' dad is Rudy (Ch. Maltcairn Malagold Cedar Rudy) who is out of Davey. I just adore Davey and Rudy and Eddie! They are all amazing dogs.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

I did want to say after re-reading my post. The "elitist" attitude does go both ways. I myself will be the first to raise my hand and say I have looked down on people who have gotten dogs from "English" byb's. It is something I work very hard to overcome though. Ah, the woes of human nature...


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

Eowyn said:


> The problem is they spread A LOT of false or skewed information and then tend to take an "elitist" attitude that "their dogs are better". It's a lot of propaganda and very little science. _*Some*_ of the info is right, "English" goldens *do* _tend_ to be lighter in color. "American" goldens *do* _tend_ to be darker. There _is_ a slight difference in the standards (but keep in mind most of their own dogs are not good representatives of their own standard). The health info is *drastically* misinterpreted. 60% of *all* goldens die of cancer, regardless of whether or not it is "English" or "American". Granted, the rate of hemangiosarcoma appears to be higher in "American" goldens and lymphoma appears to be higher in "English" goldens. But the overall rate (as far as we know, the UK has never done as broad a study as we have in America) is the same.
> 
> What they don't tell you is because they breed almost solely for color they often neglect much more important factors. Their dogs (unfortunately) often come from the worst of the worst breeders and byb's in Europe/the UK. Good breeders don't sell puppies to scam byb's and puppy mills overseas. Which means shady breeders (or worse, puppy mills) are their only source of puppies. They also tend to greatly skimp on health clearances (which should be the bare minimum for a good breeder).
> 
> ...


We had a grandson of Camrose Betimmy. Cherie Berger used him to diversify some of her Meadowpond lines but never advertised any of his off-spring as "english cream".


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

TheZ's said:


> You're right this has been discussed many times here before including the graphic that you've shown. It looks very informed and authoritative but is clearly biased in favor of what it refers to as the "English Cream". If you compare how it characterizes "American" Goldens to the GRCA breed standard you will see in numerous cases it is inconsistent with the breed standard. For instance with respect to eyes, the breed standard says:
> 
> 
> *Eyes *-- friendly and intelligent in expression, medium large with dark, close-fitting rims, set well apart and reasonably  deep in sockets. Color preferably dark brown; medium brown acceptable. *Slant eyes and narrow, triangular eyes detract from correct expression and are to be faulted. *No white or haw visible when looking straight ahead. Dogs showing evidence of functional abnormality of eyelids or eyelashes (such as, but not limited to, trichiasis, entropion, ectropion, or distichiasis) are to be excused from the ring.
> ...


To follow up on this excellent post, people need to stop using uneducated sources for stuff like golden retriever health and breed standard, and refer directly to the actual BREED STANDARDS which define what constitutes a golden retriever. If you go to the AKC breed standard, you will see exactly why the Snitker people were at the mildest, uneducated, with regards to the breed. Beyond that, yes, there are differences between the STYLES. And these are driven by individual breeders. It's why some breeders are known to have bigger/smaller/darker/lighter etc goldens that they breed and produce. Not all American bred dogs look the same. 

My main thing as I mentioned before is common sense attributes of the dogs which matter more than coloring. a good example would be - are the eyes set properly in the dog's head and do the eyelids fit tightly around to protect the eyes? And is the coat proper texture and amount...? Silky coats tangle and mat, and too heavy coats are a pain to take care of to avoid skin problems.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Jersey's mom, he is so gorgeous. 

Thank you everyone for the contributions so far. The infographic was posted on the breeder's page, it's not something I particularly agree with. I also know that "English Cream" is a marketing ploy. 

I'd like to know more about another thing. Since goldens originated from Scotland, would KC standard/English goldens be closer to the original breed? How can we fault English goldens when The Kennel Club of England recognised the breed before AKC?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

thomas&betts said:


> And a very intelligent, beautiful "English" at that! And just so the meaning of this compliment isn't debated 100 ways til Sunday by others:doh:, I am talking about your impressive training video!
> RE: Millie....those glasses would NEVER rise to the elite GRCA breed standard of the "AMERICAN" better dressed golden! Way too pretentious! ::wavey:
> 
> *Just a reminder, this was a post by an American.... owned by an English (Cream) who really likes Goldens that look like Jersey 's young bird dog on the right (in sig)*


Thank you so much for watching our video! He is a very sweet boy. 
And thank you for the reminder. I am not partial to either type, I love them both. This post is so I can hear your thoughts and learn more from them. Sunny came from one of the most reputable breeders in the country, so it comes as a shock to hear she is "anti" American golden. How can anyone be "anti" towards ANY kind of dog, let alone the same breed with slightly different standards? :no:


Btw, I am Australian!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

momo_ said:


> Jersey's mom, he is so gorgeous.
> 
> Thank you everyone for the contributions so far. The infographic was posted on the breeder's page, it's not something I particularly agree with. I also know that "English Cream" is a marketing ploy.
> 
> I'd like to know more about another thing. Since goldens originated from Scotland, would KC standard/English goldens be closer to the original breed? How can we fault English goldens when The Kennel Club of England recognised the breed before AKC?


I do not think people are faulting the "reputably bred to standard" golden retriever from England or Europe. Many reputable breeders from the US will seek out reputable European dogs to bring certain qualities into there lines. My breeder bred to Eddie because she had fallen in love with him when she was judging a show, and gave him a win in puppy sweeps. This second generation from him, mixed with her lines and brought a more "typey" look, the look that is what the classic golden used to look like.

The faulting comes in the marketing of the "Cremes" or "Whites" or "Platinum", when the parents were only chosen because they were English bred (no clearances, not proven in any venue), and the price is double to triple what the typical well bred golden retriever is.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

cubbysan said:


> I do not think people are faulting the "reputably bred to standard" golden retriever from England or Europe. Many reputable breeders from the US will seek out reputable European dogs to bring certain qualities into there lines. My breeder bred to Eddie because she had fallen in love with him when she was judging a show, and gave him a win in puppy sweeps. This second generation from him, mixed with her lines and brought a more "typey" look, the look that is what the classic golden used to look like.
> 
> The faulting comes in the marketing of the "Cremes" or "Whites" or "Platinum", when the parents were only chosen because they were English bred (no clearances, not proven in any venue), and the price is double to triple what the typical well bred golden retriever is.


Thanks for clearing that up cubbysan. Yes, I think that the marketing of "creams" and "whites" is a bit silly and taints the reputation of well-bred English goldens. In Australia, I have not come across a single breeder that advertises their goldens as cream/white. Sounds like something that's prominent in the U.S.?


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

momo_ said:


> Thank you so much for watching our video! He is a very sweet boy.
> And thank you for the reminder. I am not partial to either type, I love them both. This post is so I can hear your thoughts and learn more from them. Sunny came from one of the most reputable breeders in the country, so it comes as a shock to hear she is "anti" American golden. How can anyone be "anti" towards ANY kind of dog, let alone the same breed with slightly different standards? :no:
> 
> 
> Btw, I am Australian!


When people are putting down the English Creme's, it is not towards the our members overseas from reputable breeders. It is the ones here in the US, not sure of Canada, that are importing these dogs and then creating puppy mills.

... and also the bottom line is we all love this breed, and it is not the puppy's fault how he came into this world. All puppies and dogs should be loved the same way no matter where they came from. They are all beautiful in there own way.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

interesting thoughts from the Retrieverman blog back in 2008. 

Golden retrievers change in type and color in Britain and the US | Canis lupus hominis

" In 1936, the KC and FCI standard allowed for cream colored dogs,

Then the KC and FCI standard reduced the height at the whithers– 20 inches became the new minimum. The result was that KC and FCI show breeders began breeding the lightest possible goldens until they were producing the pale creams that we sometimes call “English cream” or “white goldens.” The shorter legs on these dogs was soon accompanied with increased bone, and the breed entirely changed in Europe."


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## Pdljmpr (Apr 4, 2015)

The 2 pictures below are Addy's mom and dad. Addy's grandfather is also like her dad.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

momo_ said:


> Jersey's mom, he is so gorgeous.


Thank you! I think so too... but I'm probably just a little bit biased.

As someone else mentioned, it's really not about putting down dogs that are well bred to another country's standard. The problem is that here in the US, cream colored dogs are faulted in the breed ring so many, many years ago the breeders were breeding away from that color extreme and it's not something you see much of in American lines. So now you have a group of irresponsible, dishonest people who are importing poorly bred dogs who just happen to be very very light, most of them coming from eastern European countries not England, and marketing them as the Rare English Cream to collect way more money than the puppies are actually worth. There are some excellent breeders of English style dogs here in the states but they are much harder to find, especially for consumers who heard someone mention an English Cream and use that term as their search criteria. 

I have a question for you, because I think it may have an influence on one of the major questions you're asking: Is your breeder in Australia or the US?

Julie and the boys


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

jersey's mom said:


> thank you! I think so too... But i'm probably just a little bit biased.
> 
> As someone else mentioned, it's really not about putting down dogs that are well bred to another country's standard. The problem is that here in the us, cream colored dogs are faulted in the breed ring so many, many years ago the breeders were breeding away from that color extreme and it's not something you see much of in american lines. So now you have a group of irresponsible, dishonest people who are importing poorly bred dogs who just happen to be very very light, most of them coming from eastern european countries not england, and marketing them as the rare english cream to collect way more money than the puppies are actually worth. There are some excellent breeders of english style dogs here in the states but they are much harder to find, especially for consumers who heard someone mention an english cream and use that term as their search criteria.
> 
> ...


xxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Thank you! I think so too... but I'm probably just a little bit biased.
> 
> As someone else mentioned, it's really not about putting down dogs that are well bred to another country's standard. The problem is that here in the US, cream colored dogs are faulted in the breed ring so many, many years ago the breeders were breeding away from that color extreme and it's not something you see much of in American lines. So now you have a group of irresponsible, dishonest people who are importing poorly bred dogs who just happen to be very very light, most of them coming from eastern European countries not England, and marketing them as the Rare English Cream to collect way more money than the puppies are actually worth. There are some excellent breeders of English style dogs here in the states but they are much harder to find, especially for consumers who heard someone mention an English Cream and use that term as their search criteria.
> 
> ...


This is unfortunately the case with many cream-colored goldens who are imported to the U.S. or bought from backyard breeders by people who just want the color and know nothing about correct structure or movement. It makes it especially frustrating for people like me, because I do show my dogs in AKC conformation and follow the GRCA guidelines. I travelled to the Netherlands several times to stay with the breeder, meet the parents and grandparents, and pick my puppy out in person. I hope, even though she is a different style than what is common here in the show ring, that I will find the occasional judge who recognizes the quality she exhibits and maybe will not be turned off by the light color. 

Here are her lovely parents:


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## Boaz (Mar 28, 2015)

Haliagoldens, Your dogs are beautiful. Can you be more specific regarding your comment about showing a different style golden? Are you referring to color only? Or are there other differences? I have and english cream and to me he seems to have a longer back than my last two american golden. It looks like you dog in the top photo also has a longer back. Would you agree or no? TIA


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

Boaz said:


> Haliagoldens, Your dogs are beautiful. Can you be more specific regarding your comment about showing a different style golden? Are you referring to color only? Or are there other differences? I have and english cream and to me he seems to have a longer back than my last two american golden. It looks like you dog in the top photo also has a longer back. Would you agree or no? TIA


You do see some shorter-legged dogs over there, which makes them appear to be longer proportionally. Preston (my puppy's sire) is a bit long. Here is another photo of him (He is still young and has some maturing to do, but he's a beautiful dog):









However, his sire is shorter-backed than he is, so not all European-bred goldens are long-bodied. Here is my puppy's grandsire:

















Her maternal grandsire is also shorter-backed, as you can see in these photos:


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

HaliaGoldens said:


> This is unfortunately the case with many cream-colored goldens who are imported to the U.S. or bought from backyard breeders by people who just want the color and know nothing about correct structure or movement. It makes it especially frustrating for people like me, because I do show my dogs in AKC conformation and follow the GRCA guidelines. I travelled to the Netherlands several times to stay with the breeder, meet the parents and grandparents, and pick my puppy out in person. I hope, even though she is a different style than what is common here in the show ring, that I will find the occasional judge who recognizes the quality she exhibits and maybe will not be turned off by the light color.
> 
> Here are her lovely parents:



I think with any style of Golden - every line has its own "style", you pick and choose what judges to show under based on their track record. My breeder told me that with my puppy, we will need to be choosy in who we show under. She thinks my puppy will do better under breed judges, those that have bred golden retrievers themselves - and even then we will be choosy. She said not everyone is going to like her, but the ones that do will absolutely love her.

My club just ran a specialty, and specific handlers and breeders came far because they knew one judge loved their style dogs. One of those handlers and a breeder specifically told my breeder that one of the judges at this year's National loves my breeder's style.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Thank you! I think so too... but I'm probably just a little bit biased.
> 
> As someone else mentioned, it's really not about putting down dogs that are well bred to another country's standard. The problem is that here in the US, cream colored dogs are faulted in the breed ring so many, many years ago the breeders were breeding away from that color extreme and it's not something you see much of in American lines. So now you have a group of irresponsible, dishonest people who are importing poorly bred dogs who just happen to be very very light, most of them coming from eastern European countries not England, and marketing them as the Rare English Cream to collect way more money than the puppies are actually worth. There are some excellent breeders of English style dogs here in the states but they are much harder to find, especially for consumers who heard someone mention an English Cream and use that term as their search criteria.
> 
> ...


Sunny's breeder is in Australia. If I flew a dog here from the US, I think I'd have to pay about $10,000! 
His breeder is the president of the GR club of this the state I live in. Her dogs come from Australian, English and European lines. I believe she made a contribution towards a golden retriever guidebook in the 1900's - all authors listed are the most reputable breeders in Australia. 

This is a list of all available registered GR breeders: 
Golden Retriever Breeders, Australia

None even make mention of "English" in the descriptions because it's not "rare" here. It'd be interesting to know if American goldens are more expensive in Aus!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

*HaliaGoldens*, so beautiful, I think I might cry.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

momo_ said:


> Sunny's breeder is in Australia. If I flew a dog here from the US, I think I'd have to pay about $10,000!
> 
> His breeder is the president of the GR club of this the state I live in. Her dogs come from Australian, English and European lines. I believe she made a contribution towards a golden retriever guidebook in the 1900's - all authors listed are the most reputable breeders in Australia.
> 
> ...


Now it makes a little more sense. I had originally assumed you were in the US and your breeder was the one whose chart you posted. (I'm posting from the app so can't immediately see your location like you can on the website). Then I was beyond lost when you said you were in Australia. All caught up now!!

I am a little less surprised by your breeder's bias knowing she is in Australia. I don't know much about the climate in goldens there, but I have two theories as to why she would think so poorly of American lines:
1. Lack of familiarity since they are not common there mixed, perhaps, with a bit of bad information either through rumor or misleading sources like the chart you found.
or
2. Is it possible there's some counterpart to our unscrupulous breeders marketing "English Creams" who push "American Reds" from poor breeding, without health clearances, and for exhorbitant amounts of money in your part of the world?

I don't think her bias makes her any less reputable.... it is, however, unfortunate that she has such a misunderstanding about the dogs in this corner of the world. Hopefully, one day she will learn more about American lines and show some mutual respect toward her US counterparts.

Julie and the boys


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Now it makes a little more sense. I had originally assumed you were in the US and your breeder was the one whose chart you posted. (I'm posting from the app so can't immediately see your location like you can on the website). Then I was beyond lost when you said you were in Australia. All caught up now!!
> 
> I am a little less surprised by your breeder's bias knowing she is in Australia. I don't know much about the climate in goldens there, but I have two theories as to why she would think so poorly of American lines:
> 1. Lack of familiarity since they are not common there mixed, perhaps, with a bit of bad information either through rumor or misleading sources like the chart you found.
> ...


I'm not questioning her reputability, it's just odd that someone of her status would be so bias.  When I was first got Sunny, I asked for advice about dealing with the puppy should he show aggression. She suggested pinning him down, or grabbing the scruff of the neck and growling back. I was hanging by her every word, but eventually learnt from this forum and made up my own opinions. I'm happy to say Sunny is SO well-behaved so far and I didn't need to take an "alpha" approach. We take a different approach to all aspects of training and diet. 

It seems like everyone on the FB community group is jumping on the anti-American golden bandwagon when they haven't bothered to do their own research. The breeder posted a picture of an American and English golden side-view to show the body shape difference. I made a random comment about how American goldens have the sweetest faces. The breeder asked me which of the two showed a KFC temperament, kind, friendly, confident, as if only ONE can fulfil that criteria and the answer was a no-brainer. Someone said American goldens seem to have skittish(?) faces, judging by that one picture and the dog wasn't even facing front-on!!! It's just absurb how bias people can be! 

I wanted to say they both have KFC expressions, if not Americans look even more friendly (my personal opinion). I didn't though, don't want to be on bad terms with her, though my own personal preference based on looks alone shouldn't cause any offense. :S 

Speaking of which, I would like to request an admin to delete this thread if it's possible in a few days... just in case anyone from the group does a search and happens to find it. I should've posted anonymously or something.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Actually, since this was a recent topic of discussion on the FB page, and someone might be interested to Google it (it's on the first page), is it okay if a moderator/admin deletes this? 

If it's not possible to delete, I might have to just go through and edit some of the things I said. Haha! 

Thanks everyone for your contribution!


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

To me I don't care if there english or american both show dog or field should be able to do the work they were bred for. I've been to 1 dog show and the show goldens here in australia need alot of work eg none of the show dogs I saw would be able to retrieve ducks all day as they were just to fat,heavy boned and short legged. If your going to breed them at least make sure there able to do the work they were bred to do, not just look pretty in the show ring.


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

Monique, some of the responses on this thread while well written are downright insulting to the thinking analytical types. Breeders seem heavily invested in their work, and therefore have blind spots which easily offend non breeders who strip marketing and emotion from fact. The Goldens of years past always had a pleasant soft kind expression, and they have been bred to such an extreme to begin to have a pit bull, untrustworthy look about them. The don't have a sturdy but lean athletic build capable of the work they were ORIGINALLY bred to accomplish. AKC and GRCA can continue to do what they do best...Market ONE version and call it Faultless all the want. Some people know what a Golden truly is! That's not to say I don't like almost ALL goldens...I DO. I just ALSO get tired of the GRCA marketing ****! That's why Engish CRÈME keeps being used in my responses. Thanks, T


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I never understand this discussion. I'm as invested in Goldens as anyone else, yet I don't understand why there has to be an argument over which style is "better," even going so far as to assign favorable health, structure, temperament and function elements to one's own favorite style, and denigrate the same in the others'. I guess we're bringing a kind of tribalism to our dogs.

But we all need to understand that this is merely a taxonomic distinction, and that no one has invented or discovered a new kind of Golden Retriever, we're just dividing them up according to our own agendas, much as an optometrist might divide his clients into those who wear glasses and those who wear contacts. There is no rational reason to divide Goldens by color in a breed that ranges from very light to very dark. There is no rational reason to divide Goldens by geographic origin in a breed that exists worldwide. Doing so says nothing about the breed, but only reveals things about us.

For me, I celebrate and enjoy them all. I _like_ the differences in Goldens! I like them light and dark, driven and soft, hunting dogs and show dogs and therapy dogs and agility dogs and companion dogs and rescue dogs and all the myriad things Goldens can be and do. That variety and versatility is their greatness! It's what makes them so amazing and wonderful. Why in the world do we feel we must divide, and label, and criticize them based on our arbitrary taxonomic categorizations? It's crazy, and doing it just prevents us from being able to enjoy them. So-called "English" and so-called "American" Goldens are equally as wonderful or not wonderful, in all their glorious diversity. This discussion is just nuts (not this one in particular, but all such discussions, in general). It's not even real. We might as well be discussing the differences in Klingons. Goldens are _one breed_, and every Golden is an individual, and like any family all lines have their own distinctions, yet remain individuals with glorious differences.

This is why I like the dogs so much. People are just too weird for me. :


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

:wavey:I like this, except......people are so weird? "Club's" that go out of their way to divide are foreign to me. And those that heavily drive a dividing agenda are downright dangerous. If only GRCA was a little more ....meh.....and a little less marketing TOOL! If only...


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## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

momo_ said:


> I'd like to know more about another thing. Since goldens originated from Scotland, would KC standard/English goldens be closer to the original breed? How can we fault English goldens when The Kennel Club of England recognised the breed before AKC?



An interesting theory and/or argument, but not one that is supported by historical research and evidence. The Bev Brown articles linked in the Choosing a Golden Breeder stickies helps illustrate as much.

Lewis Harcourt was the first exhibitor of GRs in the UK at Kennel Club shows, and his dogs go back to Tweedmouth, Ilchester, et al, and contribute to the pedigrees of almost all Golden Retrievers. 1910 pictures of some of his dogs from a Country Life article are attached. If there are different styles preferred in the US and UK, these preferences appear to have developed over time as opposing to conforming to or diverging from some original conception of the breed.

ETA: Sorry, attachments didn't work from my phone. Will see if I can find a way to link them later.


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## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

Attempt number two at pictures. Maybe if I just try to add them one at a time...


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## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

And another:


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

momo_ said:


> The reason why I want to discuss this is because on my breeder's Facebook page, there seems to be an elitist mentality that English goldens are better primarily due to health reasons - they live longer and less risk of cancer, according to the picture below posted on the page. Someone said the life expectancy of an American golden is HALF of an English, which seems totally far-fetched.
> 
> Along with physical differences in head-shape, body and bone structure, coat, face etc., there's apparently a difference in temperament and energy level as well. Maybe this is something we can talk about as it's something we can agree or disagree upon kindly.
> 
> .


I would call that "elitest" as much as either naive or dishonest. There is no difference, except in what type of cancer occurs most frequently. We need to lament together the suceptibilty of our beloved breed to cancer, so we can keep doing research. It does no good to stretch the truth.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

Ljilly28 said:


> I would call that "elitest" as much as either naive or dishonest. There is no difference, except in what type of cancer occurs most frequently. We need to lament together the suceptibilty of our beloved breed to cancer, so we can keep doing research. It does no good to stretch the truth.


My understanding is it is a little more guess work over there though, as they have not done as broad a study (or as many in general)? Therefore potentially allowing people to have/use different statistics/numbers without necessary being naive or dishonest? Without a large study it is just guesswork on the rate of cancers... Plus they may not do as many autopsies over there on older dogs where they may not know how a large percentage of their dogs died (allowing dogs that die of cancer to be thought of as having died of old age)? 

I am just throwing out thoughts, I have no clue if any of this is accurate. I just hate to assume against anyones character without thinking though the possibility of a misconception.

ETA: My earlier post should have stated that *60% of* all goldens _in the United States_ regardless of being "English" or "American" die of cancer. We assume that is true in other countries (I think).

ETA: X2 The bolded 60% of was added later. I had a bad typo and forgot that very important detail. :doh:


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Very well said, DanaRuns. I agree wholeheartedly!


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## TexasGoldRush (Dec 12, 2014)

I happened to end up with an English and I adore her, but I would have adored an American just as much. To the average pet owner there is no difference. They are our pets, our furkids and we love them dearly.


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