# Field Training Progression



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Check out Lardy's flow chart.

http://www.totalretriever.com/images/FlowChartDownload.pdf


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Thank you very much!


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

coaraujo said:


> Hello :wave:
> 
> Bernie and Ollz are my first dogs and GRs so our goal is just a WC :crossfing. I do hope to go farther, but I find this all really hard!


If your goal is just a WC then you do not need any handling drills. Since you indicated you may want to go farther, and I suspect you will because the enthusiasm of the dogs makes this very addictive, I would suggest looking at the flow chart Swampcollie posted. 
Lardy's methods are tried and true. You can't go wrong there. He does continue progression of marking skills along with the pile or yard work. Most people who do advanced work follow this type of a program. 
Handling drills and marking are not mutually exclusive, they should be taught in conjunction with each other.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

TrailDogs said:


> If your goal is just a WC then you do not need any handling drills. Since you indicated you may want to go farther, and I suspect you will because the enthusiasm of the dogs makes this very addictive, I would suggest looking at the flow chart Swampcollie posted.
> Lardy's methods are tried and true. You can't go wrong there. He does continue progression of marking skills along with the pile or yard work. Most people who do advanced work follow this type of a program.
> Handling drills and marking are not mutually exclusive, they should be taught in conjunction with each other.


Alright, so it makes sense that we would be working on handling skills and singles right now, and slowly each would get more complex. I would like to go farther than a WC, I'm just not sure if my training skills are up to par for that .


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I just did the WC on Sunday. I am fairly new to all of this stuff, shoot, I'm new to dogs in general. Anyhow, just to ease your mind, that was the easiest test we've ever done. They had no cover so the birds are sitting right there in the grass, you can hold your dog to steady him, the birds were all nice and fluffy, you don't even have the dog return to hand, ect. Everyone passed and I can tell you that at least half of the dogs were running all around and meeting the bird boys and all that. It was so relaxed. Do not worry about this test, I promise! I was so nervous because we just started doubles a few weeks ago and I'd not been to a WC before. UM. yeah, you don't not need to have your dog know doubles for this. If you dog has a brain and can focus for any length of time and will bring the bird back to you, then you are set. JMHO


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> If you dog has a brain and can focus for any length of time and will bring the bird back to you, then you are set. JMHO


I'm most nervous about the focus issue, what if they don't go get the bird and take off after a squirrel or something? Oliver isn't the most motivated retriever, now that we have a trained retrieve he'll always get the bumper, but beforehand he would run out to it and then look at me like "um this isn't a fun toy?". Even in class yesterday, we struggled with focus because we jumped from doing retrieves in the living room with no distractions to retrieves in the dog training center with a million distractions. 

What did you do to prep for the WC? We just completed our trained retrieve, but haven't introduced birds yet. 

The boys know know fetch, hold, walking hold, they come to heel and retrieve to hand. But all with a bumper. I hope it warms up soon so we can start throwing singles in the backyard. That's probably a good next step right? (in addition to class)

ETA: Forgot to mention..CONGRATS!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Consider joining SBGRC  They hold field training sessions which will start ramping up shortly - I think the MA group may be too far for you?

This will allow you to work with birds, start to volunteer and man the stations, have some very experienced (and patient) people to help you and get you familiar with at least one of the test sites  In our area, mowed fields with little to no cover are probably not going to happen. Ditches, technical ponds, high grasses, hills and valleys are all on the training grounds the club uses.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

coaraujo said:


> I'm most nervous about the focus issue, what if they don't go get the bird and take off after a squirrel or something? Oliver isn't the most motivated retriever, now that we have a trained retrieve he'll always get the bumper, but beforehand he would run out to it and then look at me like "um this isn't a fun toy?". Even in class yesterday, we struggled with focus because we jumped from doing retrieves in the living room with no distractions to retrieves in the dog training center with a million distractions.


You may find you have a different dog when he gets introduced to birds. He is not likely to take off after something else on his way to a bird. And any squirrel with an ounce of self preservation won't be in the middle of a WC test


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Sunrise said:


> Consider joining SBGRC  They hold field training sessions which will start ramping up shortly - I think the MA group may be too far for you?
> 
> This will allow you to work with birds, start to volunteer and man the stations, have some very experienced (and patient) people to help you and get you familiar with at least one of the test sites  In our area, mowed fields with little to no cover are probably not going to happen. Ditches, technical ponds, high grasses, hills and valleys are all on the training grounds the club uses.


YES. I need to do this. I went to one of their training sessions last year and it was probably the best experience of my life. I think I saw on the website that they start up mid-march. Hopefully the snow will be gone (but considering we're supposed to get a whole bunch more this Monday... :no. I went to the Nod Brook site last year, and also went there to watch the WC, WCX test last fall. It was definitely high cover (or a lot of cover? not sure what the right wording is ) I know I couldn't see where the birds were.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

So I was looking more at Lardy's Flow Chart and at the top section 

We have yet to do the following things, so I'm wondering if we're getting ahead of ourselves with our training (the whole we need to learn to walk before we can run saying). If we haven't done any of the following could it hurt our training to be working on things in the Basics section? 

Introduction to Gunner-thrown marks 
Casting Games with Treats (what is this?)
Introduction to Upland Hunting (What does this entail?)
Introduction to Birds 
Walking Singles 
Introduction to Water Retrieves 
Yard Multiples


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Sent you some info 

Just as a heads-up, at Nod Brook (especially with the possibility of snow pack melt) if they yell to get off the fields, do NOT stop to grab anything other than your dog; run to your car and get out of there. The water rises fast so if you are in the fields, leave all the equipment and get out!





coaraujo said:


> YES. I need to do this. I went to one of their training sessions last year and it was probably the best experience of my life. I think I saw on the website that they start up mid-march. Hopefully the snow will be gone (but considering we're supposed to get a whole bunch more this Monday... :no. I went to the Nod Brook site last year, and also went there to watch the WC, WCX test last fall. It was definitely high cover (or a lot of cover? not sure what the right wording is ) I know I couldn't see where the birds were.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

GRCA.org offers a WC/WCX DVD for free if you are a member, $8 if you are not. It's an excellent DVD. For the WC test the difficulty depends on who is judging. As for flow charts you're going to find them all over the board. The big question will be "have you completed force fetch?" On another note, I do find some field trainers to be very rough in their training and I don't like how they do some of the steps. I'll be blunt and say I don't like everything that Mike Lardy does. So just because it's on a pro's tape, doesn't mean you have to do it they way they do it on the DVD. One pro I really like is Pat Nolan, you can find him on YouTube.

Good luck and enjoy your dogs. There are also different associations for retrieving. AKC is one, HRC (part of UKC), and NAHRA are others. You will find clubs different wherever you go. In my area NAHRA is very laid back and AKC is a little more intense. Match your needs with the club events you go to.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> As for flow charts you're going to find them all over the board. The big question will be "have you completed force fetch?" On another note, I do find some field trainers to be very rough in their training and I don't like how they do some of the steps. I'll be blunt and say I don't like everything that Mike Lardy does. So just because it's on a pro's tape, doesn't mean you have to do it they way they do it on the DVD. One pro I really like is Pat Nolan, you can find him on YouTube.
> 
> Good luck and enjoy your dogs. There are also different associations for retrieving. AKC is one, HRC (part of UKC), and NAHRA are others. You will find clubs different wherever you go. In my area NAHRA is very laid back and AKC is a little more intense. Match your needs with the club events you go to.


Field training your dogs is addictive! Once you get started, you probably won't want to stop at WC or even WCX.

As Alaska said, there are plenty of "flow charts" on the internet and in other resources, but all of them generally reflect the same sort of progression (and 95% are based on the philosophy of a guy named Rex Carr). Retriever training isn't "rocket science," but instead like building a house, with a little psychology thrown in. You start with a foundation and build up from there; it's progressive training ... start simple, then add difficulties (a/k/a factors) a little at a time. That's what "basics" is all about. 

With regard to a couple of issues you raised in your initial post:
You will notice the two columns in the Lardy Flowchart. One side is "Yard" and the other side is "Field." Progression on each column can be (but don't have to be) done contemporaneously, they are certainly not mutually exclusive. 
Second, marking is of primary importance in each and every retriever venue. In early training, a focus on marks is, in my opinion, hugely important. The dogs have to learn to use their eyes and depend on themselves to find the object; otherwise, they become dependent on the handler and will not develop the knowledge or courage to find the object on their own. Also, marks help build their drive and desire, necessary attributes for your dogs to have on your retriever training journey.

Have fun!

FTGoldens


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

FTGoldens said:


> Second, marking is of primary importance in each and every retriever venue. In early training, a focus on marks is, in my opinion, hugely important. The dogs have to learn to use their eyes and depend on themselves to find the object; otherwise, they become dependent on the handler and will not develop the knowledge or courage to find the object on their own. Also, marks help build their drive and desire, necessary attributes for your dogs to have on your retriever training journey.
> 
> Have fun!
> 
> FTGoldens


This is the gap in our training then, because I haven't been doing any marks:doh:! I feel like I've made the biggest mistake possible. From the get go I knew I had to work on making retrieving fun for Oliver because he wasn't as nuts for it as other dogs are. But I think I've been doing it all wrong (And actually making it less fun for him :no: ) And I've been missing the piece of the puzzle thats supposed to help with that! It has been brought up to me that handling drills can make retrieving less motivating for a dog. Is this true, and if this is the case..since Oliver's motivation needs some work, should we put a hold on the handling drills for a while and just work on fun retrieves and marks?

Thanks for your responses everyone!


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

so you are working on handling but not on marking? You've never had your dog at heel and had someone throw a bumper while you saying 'mark' and then releasing him on his name to get it? 

I don't follow all these flowcharts like a lot of folks seem to do. All the stuff I do with my girls seems to zigzag all over those charts. I used to not understand everything I was doing with them but then it all came together and wow, an aww ha moment for me. But the VERY first thing I ever did with them was tossing marks and calling their names as they went after them. Then I worked on here after they got the mark. I didn't even care if they brought the 'bird' all the way back per se but that the dog came all the way back to me. Then after I had them so motivated and they enjoyed it we moved to steadying, telling them to mark and bringing it to my hand. All of this didn't really take long to develop in the realm of things. Far easier than handling for me and my girls. 
I think you could easily do this in your yard to just start developing some marking in your dog.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> so you are working on handling but not on marking? You've never had your dog at heel and thrown a bumper while saying 'mark' and then releasing him on his name to get it?
> 
> I don't follow all these flowcharts like a lot of folks seem to do. All the stuff I do with my girls seems to zigzag all over those charts. I used to not understand everything I was doing with them but then it all came together and wow, an aww ha moment for me. But the VERY first thing I ever did with them was tossing marks and calling their names as they went after them. Then I worked on here after they got the mark. I didn't even care if they brought the 'bird' all the way back per se but that the dog came all the way back to me. Then after I had them so motivated and they enjoyed it we moved to steadying, telling them to mark and bringing it to my hand. All of this didn't really take long to develop in the realm of things. Far easier than handling for me and my girls.
> I think you could easily do this in your yard to just start developing some marking in your dog.


Oh I see, I have done something similar to that. I'd have Oliver sit at my side and have him go get a bumper down a hallway and bring it back. We just haven't done any where we have a thrower. Usually I put Oliver in a wait while I placed the bumper down the hallway instead of throwing it (we have a tenant that lives below us who gets disturbed by the noise), that's probably the least fun thing I could be doing as far as trying to get him motivated - "Oliver, don't you really want to go get this motionless boring object?".


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

on the weekend grab a friend to throw for you and go outside to a park, field, yard, whatever. I bet he will get all amped up over that!


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> on the weekend grab a friend to throw for you and go outside to a park, field, yard, whatever. I bet he will get all amped up over that!


And for the time being, since I just want to focus on motivation. We shouldn't work on steadiness and its okay if he drops it on the way back? :crossfing it doesn't snow again this weekend.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

well, for me, my girls had no prior training. So for them, they hadn't been taught that stuff yet and this was all just to build up motivation. For them, their desire to retrieve was high enough that after a few times of me being laid back I could start working on the other stuff pretty quick. So basically, they were so motivated to retrieve that they were more apt to following new commands such as sitting in order to be able to get the retrieve they had started really enjoying going after. Does that make sense? Another thing my trainer always did was make me stop it when they were having a lot of fun, in order to leave them wanting more. 

But your guy sounds like he already knows how to retrieve and bring to hand in heel position so I am not really sure if being completely slack with him would be detrimental to what he already knows. I'm sure someone here would know better than me. I'm just a newbie but this stuff is still fresh that is why I piped up and offered what we've been doing. 

I can say for sure one thing. After a few retrieves and getting her to come back, making her steady by holding her just amped her up even more. It was like she was boiling over and couldn't wait to get that 'bird' (we call everything a bird even if it is a bumper or whatnot) and me holding her just built up the motivation more. Especially in my youngest girl. And they would get all antsy, ending up forgetting where the bird went which was kind of a good thing because then I would send them off and say find your bird. This seemed to create a good hunt drive in my girls as they will hunt and hunt on their own but also it taught them if they don't sit still and "mark" then they won't see where that prize falls. 

It is very neat to watch their minds put it all together and it really doesn't take too much work or training to get them to understand that.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> well, for me, my girls had no prior training. So for them, they hadn't been taught that stuff yet and this was all just to build up motivation. For them, *their desire to retrieve was high enough that after a few times of me being laid back I could start working on the other stuff pretty quick. So basically, they were so motivated to retrieve that they were more apt to following new commands such as sitting in order to be able to get the retrieve they had started really enjoying going after.* Does that make sense? Another thing my trainer always did was make me stop it when they were having a lot of fun, in order to leave them wanting more.
> 
> *But your guy sounds like he already knows how to retrieve and bring to hand in heel position* so I am not really sure if being completely slack with him would be detrimental to what he already knows. I'm sure someone here would know better than me. I'm just a newbie but this stuff is still fresh that is why I piped up and offered what we've been doing.
> 
> ...



We don't have the first part I bolded but we do have the second part. If that makes sense. He isn't the most motivated retriever, but in training class we've been working on handling drills, so he knows a lot of the obedience work. I've created a robot I think. I can send him over and back to fetch a bumper and he'll go get it and return to heel and sit there with it until I ask him for it. (under minimal distractions). 


The retriever is in him somewhere. I see that desire to chase movement. But it needs to be brought out. I was just given some advice that practicing handling skills while trying to build motivation for the retrieve can be counterproductive. So now i'm confused as to how to proceed. Maybe just go back to square one? 

I have some wings in the freezer, maybe i'll take those out and rubber band them to the bumpers and just focus on marks for a few weeks, mix some bird and some fun to build motivation.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

coaraujo said:


> We don't have the first part I bolded but we do have the second part. If that makes sense. He isn't the most motivated retriever, but in training class we've been working on handling drills, so he knows a lot of the obedience work. I've created a robot I think. I can send him over and back to fetch a bumper and he'll go get it and return to heel and sit there with it until I ask him for it. (under minimal distractions).
> 
> 
> The retriever is in him somewhere. I see that desire to chase movement. But it needs to be brought out. I was just given some advice that practicing handling skills while trying to build motivation for the retrieve can be counterproductive. So now i'm confused as to how to proceed. Maybe just go back to square one?
> ...


First a disclaimer, please be aware that I am an amateur ... but I slept in a Holiday Inn last night  ... well, not really, but I have been training retrievers for quite a few years at a fairly high level. So, my suggestions may be worth exactly what you pay for them!
For a few weeks (at least a month), just work on marks. You mentioned that he's not particularly motivated, so you really need to build the desire and enthusiasm. He's not going to forget the handling stuff that you've taught him.
It sounds like he is innately obedient, so I'd not want to make him be steady for marks at this point, but instead hold him by the collar until the object is about to hit the ground, then release him for the retrieve ... you can work on the steadiness later ... right now you are working on building the desire. Start short, then extend the distance.
At this stage, make sure that he can easily find the object ... let there be no doubt that he can see it, even from the line at first. You can later put it in short cover so he has to be near it to see it, but for now we want him to see it in the air and on the ground.
Since he's willingly been doing the handling drills, I suspect that he's got plenty of internal desire which will manifest itself when he figures out what marks mean.
FTGoldens


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

(Deleted, wrong place.)


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

Hiya! I think I experienced firsthand the confusion you're having, because going to the same class, we learned bits and pieces of things we can work on at home by ourselves (whistle sit, hand signals for over and back, hold, heel, out, etc) at home, but there's a million pieces to put together.

They make sense once you do it for awhile and everything comes together. I remember people telling me what to do and why - but I didn't just "get it" by being told what to do, the pieces fell into place and the lightbulb came on for me experientially from working together with the dog - that was Boomer, I learned a lot from him - and built on more advanced learning with Gladys.

It's impossible for us to work on any significant marking at the moment, unless we ask to throw some short bumpers in class, because everything outside (my house at least) is an iceberg or skating rink. 

Training at Nod Brook is 3/22 - will be interesting to see if it's do-able - I heard another club had to cancel their training at Nod Brook b/c it's too snowy/icy for now.

I think training will be more fun and less boring for ALL OF US once we can get back OUTSIDE !!! woo wooooarty:


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

boomers_dawn said:


> Hiya! I think I experienced firsthand the confusion you're having, because going to the same class, we learned bits and pieces of things we can work on at home by ourselves (whistle sit, hand signals for over and back, hold, heel, out, etc) at home, but there's a million pieces to put together.
> 
> They make sense once you do it for awhile and everything comes together. I remember people telling me what to do and why - but I didn't just "get it" by being told what to do, the pieces fell into place and the lightbulb came on for me experientially from working together with the dog - that was Boomer, I learned a lot from him - and built on more advanced learning with Gladys.
> 
> ...


I think that this is what's happening. I'm trying to learn the process and train it to Oliver and Bernie at the same time, which is awfully confusing. I think I've taken some of the fun out of it for Oliver because of that. But I've been able to figure out some things the past few weeks that have really helped us move forward. I think the weather warming up will really help us out . Last season when it was warm when we were training I was in way over my head and all I felt comfortable training was the handling skills so I didn't do any marks - none of the fun stuff. Now that that's all I want to do, its too icy to get out there and do it! Thank god these dogs put up with me while I slowly plug along in this learning process :bowl:...They're probably like just throw the **** bird already! This is the year we'll see progress, that's for sure.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

FTGoldens said:


> First a disclaimer, please be aware that I am an amateur ... but I slept in a Holiday Inn last night  ... well, not really, but I have been training retrievers for quite a few years at a fairly high level. So, my suggestions may be worth exactly what you pay for them!
> For a few weeks (at least a month), just work on marks. You mentioned that he's not particularly motivated, so you really need to build the desire and enthusiasm. He's not going to forget the handling stuff that you've taught him.
> It sounds like he is innately obedient, so I'd not want to make him be steady for marks at this point, but instead hold him by the collar until the object is about to hit the ground, then release him for the retrieve ... you can work on the steadiness later ... right now you are working on building the desire. Start short, then extend the distance.
> At this stage, make sure that he can easily find the object ... let there be no doubt that he can see it, even from the line at first. You can later put it in short cover so he has to be near it to see it, but for now we want him to see it in the air and on the ground.
> ...


I just got an order of canvas bumpers in the mail. Took em outta the box and Oliver's mouth was chattering like I'd just taken out a piece of grilled chicken! I've been attempting at doing more mark work - hasn't been easy in this icy pit, but clearly its been working!


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

coaraujo said:


> I just got an order of canvas bumpers in the mail. Took em outta the box and Oliver's mouth was chattering like I'd just taken out a piece of grilled chicken! I've been attempting at doing more mark work - hasn't been easy in this icy pit, but clearly its been working!


Excellent!
Keep building that desire! Dog training is even more fun when you see the amount of pure joy your dog gets out of it.


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