# pedigrees



## bgold10

I have a boy from Summit's Mr. Bojangles and he just sired a litter out of my Ch. girl. Lovely pedigree.


----------



## ggal

My puppy that we are getting in the spring will be a grandkid of Mr. Bojangles.


----------



## Tahnee GR

Love Hobo m I have seen some lovely Hobo kids and grandkids.


----------



## hotel4dogs

you should share the pedigrees with us!


----------



## bgold10

The pedigree is Am Ch Goldnview's Merry Breeze X Nautilus Thriller. This is a very exciting litter for us. Thinking about going back to obedience w/our dogs.


----------



## Ljilly28

First of all, I absolutely love Casanova. I think he is such an honest dog, and such a wonderful temperament. Is the boy in this breeding a littermate of Paisley? I didn't know they had gotten old enough to breed; Time really goes by too fast. This is a linebreeding on Van if I have the dogs straight in my mind, which I might not, lol. Arent Cooties and casanova littermates?


----------



## Sally's Mom

Ljilly, you are so polite... you have the breeding correct... Nautilus Thriller is a 5/09 model.


----------



## GoldenSail

Why did you breed an underage dog?


----------



## K9-Design

If you loves you some Nautilus that for sure is quite a pedigree.


----------



## AmbikaGR

On your website you state Sabrina's hips are "OFA Fair" with no OFA number and the OFA website does not list a clearance for hips. Can you provide the OFA number for her hips?


----------



## Sally's Mom

Actually, Sabrina appears to come from a line of dams missing hip clearances on OFA.


----------



## bgold10

*pedigree*

Sabrina had fair prelims from OFA and I had her finals done. Which are expected to come back fair also, as per 3 vet opinions, 2 breeders said the same. While having people look at them she came into season two weeks after radiographed, as a result, I will redo her hips when she is back in condition to ensure the best result. I have no doubt that she will pass. Also, you should see the bitch move and look at her conformation. I have seen many things having worked in the veterinary field for 15 years. Dogs that passed that couldn't move, dogs that didn't pass but NEVER had a problem. I myself have had many generations of bitches from TOP breeders. Every one of them, save one, had dysplasia. One of them, living to almost 15, and never having a problem until her last year which I managed w/Deramaxx. I believe that OFA is helpful but the dog should be looked at as a whole. I bred my bitch to a boy that has prelim'd solid good hips, elbows normal, cardiac and cerf clear and they have produced a beautiful litter. I stand by my decision.


----------



## bgold10

He is my boy and has recent clearances on all.


----------



## GoldenSail

I don't understand why you would not wait for final clearances on both, especially since they are both young and could be bred at a later date.

Since Sabrina has a prelim of fair she has a 23.1% chance of not passing her hips after two years of age--MJ has a 2.1% chance (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia)

Where are Sabrina's dam's hip clearances? Elbows are on OFFA and k9data, but not hips. Same with her dam's dam.


----------



## Sally's Mom

Well, having been in the veterinary field as a vet for more than 24 years... I have seen it all and seen all kinds of justifications 6 ways to Sunday. I have seen dysplastic dogs produce more severely dysplastic dogs, more often than I have seen clear dogs produce more severely dysplastic dogs. I radiographed a GSP, after he had been bred, that had no heads of the femurs and no acetabula. Did he still hunt until 16? Yes. Did it justify breeding him? No. My husband, the vet would have a field day with the Bgold10 response... as we vets always look to breeders to interpret our radiographs. And Ambika politely pointed out something else... there is an OFA elbow clearance for your girl. I have never just done elbows without hips on my dogs.. so the interpretation from OFA is there is no hip clearance....


----------



## K9-Design

It's amazing how much evidence and education you can throw at people, but there are still those who ignore this to justify their personal gratification. Sad for our breed and for puppy buyers. There is no excuse for it.


----------



## bgold10

I imagine then that the experienced veterinarian's that I know and have given opinion don't know nearly as much as you and your husband do about breeding. However, it seems that if subjective opinion actually made dysplasia disappear then it would be no more. All of my previous bitches as examples, since their sires and dams all had OFA numbers. (Interestingly, the girls that were supposed "show quality" pups were the ones with dysplastic hips and the "pet quality" pup was clear.)Admittedly not as knowledgeable as you may be, I do know breeders that resubmitted radiographs on numerous occasions ultimately obtaining clearances and producing some of the best out there. So where does that leave us? This "conversation" could go on forever.


----------



## Sally's Mom

I don't know where it leaves you... but I am still in the same place. I have yet to breed one of my girls without all 4 clearances as recommended by the GRCA. I have to be able to stand there with a straight and honest face when I sell my pups.


----------



## bgold10

All buyers have been advised of ALL health history and I will stand behind my puppies. I have spoken with many long standing breeders and they have said time and time again that although their sires and dams are OFA certified, they still have produced pups with dysplasia.


----------



## K9-Design

bgold10 said:


> All buyers have been advised of ALL health history and I will stand behind my puppies. I have spoken with many long standing breeders and they have said time and time again that although their sires and dams are OFA certified, they still have produced pups with dysplasia.


No one is arguing that OFA-cleared dogs will never produce dysplasia. It happens and until we have a DNA test it will continue to happen. But the phenotype tests of OFA xrays continue to be the best way to predict and reduce incidence of dysplasia.
However-- you are completely ignoring the GRCA Code Of Ethics in breeding dogs under 2 years of age and without health clearances. Does that not weigh on your consciousness, are you not trying to do your absolute best as a breeder? _*A prelim is not a clearance. *_
This is what we preach OVER AND OVER AND OVER again to people searching for breeders and it is inexcusable for a breeder to ignore the parent club recommendations and breed dogs without clearances. If you are a new show exhibitor and breeder, it is political suicide. You are doing yourself, your breed, and your puppy buyers a disservice.


----------



## Sally's Mom

Give us the names of the longstanding breeders, so I don't buy a dog from them.


----------



## CarolinaCasey

bgold10 said:


> I imagine then that the experienced veterinarian's that I know and have given opinion don't know nearly as much as you and your husband do about breeding. However, it seems that if subjective opinion actually made dysplasia disappear then it would be no more. All of my previous bitches as examples, since their sires and dams all had OFA numbers. (Interestingly, the girls that were supposed "show quality" pups were the ones with dysplastic hips and the "pet quality" pup was clear.)Admittedly not as knowledgeable as you may be, I do know breeders that resubmitted radiographs on numerous occasions ultimately obtaining clearances and producing some of the best out there. So where does that leave us? This "conversation" could go on forever.


It scares me to think that your 'passing' bitches had littermates (more than 1??) that were dysplastic. Look at the big picture. That is more telling than the clearance of 1 dog. If multiple littermates are dysplastic- that's not a coincidence. I wouldn't want to be breeding dogs with that kind of pedigree of poor hip health, and especially not breeding the one passing bitch's offspring without a proper clearance. That's negligent.


----------



## K9-Design

Sally's Mom said:


> Give us the names of the longstanding breeders, so I don't buy a dog from them.


Look at the predominant kennel name in the pedigree of the litter and it's pretty obvious.


----------



## HiTideGoldens

bgold10, 
Goldensail posed a question that remains unanswered. Why not breed these two at a later date? Certainly waiting until both have final clearances would not have been a big deal considering that both dogs are very young. Would that 6 months have really made that much of a difference in your breeding program?


----------



## CarolinaCasey

bgold10 said:


> The pedigree is Am Ch Goldnview's Merry Breeze X Nautilus Thriller. This is a very exciting litter for us. Thinking about going back to obedience w/our dogs.


I know that you can change what's happened, the puppies are here. BUT- I think that you'd be giving yourself credibility and doing the right thing to get final clearances now... before puppies go home on your girl. 

Your bitch was 2 years old last summer (2008). Surely there was ample time (6+ months!) to get them done before she went into season. You list an elbow #, but it doesn't come up in the OFA database. I presume that she failed hips, passed elbows. Are you just planning to resubmit in a few years since you said "you knew breeders that did that and they finally passed." Do you realize how ludicrous that is?

Her dam doesn't look like she has any hip or elbow clearances either, but it looks like there would have been just enough time to get them done before breeding her, too. 

Thriller is just 1.5 years old...

I guess this just begs the question, why? Was it an accidental breeding? 

I just found your website, www.absoluteloveforgoldens.com for GoldnView Golden Retrievers.


----------



## AmbikaGR

CarolinaCasey said:


> It scares me to think that your 'passing' bitches had littermates (more than 1??) that were dysplastic. Look at the big picture. That is more telling than the clearance of 1 dog. If multiple littermates are dysplastic- that's not a coincidence. I wouldn't want to be breeding dogs with that kind of pedigree of poor hip health, and especially not breeding the one passing bitch's offspring without a proper clearance. That's negligent.


I was going to make a very similar post but I think this says it quite well. If there is evidence of dysplasia behind either or both parents lines WHY would any responsible breeder continue to breed those lines? 
Also you still have not answered why Sabrina has an elbow final clearance and not a hip clearance from OFA. And I will be more to the point this time, it is my guess that her hips did not pass OFA when you submitted the elbows. :no:


----------



## Goldenz

OFA is the long standing institution, but Penn-Hip is much more accurate and should be the desired clearing house for hips. I wanted to penn-hip my girl but was told that if she wasn't OFA cleared, no one would agree to breed to her.

I purchased a show quality puppy from someone who has an excellent reputation in the breed. We co-own her and agreed to breed her. All clearances were great with the exception of hips - came back mildly dysplastic. She will spayed shortly- no puppies in her future. My problem - when I emailed the results to the breeder, I never heard another word from her - nothing in regards to the contract, no "sorry", no "too bad", no "take a hike" - nothing! I'm pissed and I'm sad to think she would take that route of just totally ignoring the situation.


----------



## Sally's Mom

I think all of us who own goldens understand that 5 generations of clear parentage does not make all clear pups. I have seen when 5 generations of hip clearances are there, the offspring, if dysplastic, seem to be more mildly affected. I have seen BYB with their dysplastic goldens breed more severely dysplastic goldens.

Standing behind your dogs means what? Just look at threads from MilosMommy to see how devastating it is to have a hip replacement done... would you be paying for that?

And up front and honest with the potential owners means what? Do you say, my girl probably has hip dysplasia since there is no OFA rating for hips, but she does have an elbow clearance? Or do you say, OFA didn't pass her, but 3 vets and 2 breeders say she's a FAIR? It just doesn't pass my straight face test.

And lastly, you are getting the scrutiny because you posted the breeding on here in the first place.

And to a previous poster, the ratings except hips are on OFA.


----------



## AmbikaGR

Goldenz said:


> OFA is the long standing institution, but Penn-Hip is much more accurate and should be the desired clearing house for hips. I wanted to penn-hip my girl but was told that if she wasn't OFA cleared, no one would agree to breed to her.
> 
> I purchased a show quality puppy from someone who has an excellent reputation in the breed. We co-own her and agreed to breed her. All clearances were great with the exception of hips - came back mildly dysplastic. She will spayed shortly- no puppies in her future. My problem - when I emailed the results to the breeder, I never heard another word from her - nothing in regards to the contract, no "sorry", no "too bad", no "take a hike" - nothing! I'm pissed and I'm sad to think she would take that route of just totally ignoring the situation.



I would pick up the phone and call them. What are you expecting from the breeder? Was there a clause in your contract to cover this possibility of dysplasia?


----------



## wakemup

I find it interesting that nobody is mentioning Penn Hip evaluations. Forgive me if this was discussed and I missed it, but I have found obtaining Penn Hip numbers to be helpful. Penn Hip and OFA results can sometimes be drastically different, as they measure different things. I am not remotely pretending to know more than anyone else, just throwing the idea out there. I feel like PennHip is not a total answer, but another valuable piece of information (of which we can never have too many).


----------



## wakemup

To further clarify, I get both done on my dogs.


----------



## GoldenSail

The thing with PennHip is that one of the views will also work for OFA and OFA is more accepted so if you like PennHip why not both?


----------



## Sally's Mom

The current problem for me, is that with PennHip results cannot be verified online. I never take a breeder's word for anything and want to see it in person. I think the same can be said for verifying earlier clearances on OVC.


----------



## AmbikaGR

wakemup said:


> I find it interesting that nobody is mentioning Penn Hip evaluations. Forgive me if this was discussed and I missed it, but I have found obtaining Penn Hip numbers to be helpful. Penn Hip and OFA results can sometimes be drastically different, as they measure different things. I am not remotely pretending to know more than anyone else, just throwing the idea out there. I feel like PennHip is not a total answer, but another valuable piece of information (of which we can never have too many).



The breeder has posted on their web site that the hips are "OFA Fair" but she does not list an OFA number nor does the OFA database for this dog's hips. Yet there is a number for OFA elbows which is confirmed in the OFA database. So if the elbows were done, and we all know you can only get an OFA number for elbows after 2 years of age, then where is the hip certification?


----------



## DNL2448

Your dogs are beautiful, but sorry, no thanks. I would not purchase a puppy from you for reasons stated throughout this thread. Why if you take the time and money to show the dog to a championship, won't you do the basic responsibilities of a breeder and ensure what can be done is done? Wouldn't you like the peace of mind that you did everything you could to ensure a healthy litter? I agree OFA'd dogs can produce HD, but HD dogs WILL, why not hedge your bet.

Years ago, I bred a nicely pedigreed multi-titled OFA Good bitch to a high powered multi-titled OFA Excellent male. One puppy out of 11 had mild HD. My female was spayed and I called every puppy buyer to let them know what I had found out. I also gave the owner of the HD puppy another puppy out of a future litter. The pup with HD went on to lead a happy life and achieved his CDX (after surgery).


----------



## Kmullen

This was the same problem I was running into when looking for my next show pup. I found some breeders that were doing the same thing. Loved the dogs and pedigree and it was hard....but I passed for this same reason......underage dogs.


----------



## Kmullen

I just do not understand why they can not wait!! Is there hurry to get some money or what?


----------



## Sally's Mom

One of the problems GRF members have with the breeding is that the bitch in question WAS old enough to have final OFA's... she has an OFA elbow clearance but no OFA hip clearance.


----------



## wakemup

When I see an elbow clearance but no hip clearance on the ofa database, I assume HD. I have certainly encountered dogs that did not obtain a hip clearance at age 2, but when resubmitted at a later date passed. My dog Tate was deemed mild hd at age 24 months. When rechecked at age 37 months he was ofa good. He does have tight penn hip numbers. I did not breed him to anyone however, and resubmitting doesn't guarantee a better evaluation. I am just making the point that ofa is not infallible. I agree that a bitch with an elbow clearance but no hip clearance should not be bred.


----------



## GoldenSail

kfayard said:


> This was the same problem I was running into when looking for my next show pup. I found some breeders that were doing the same thing. Loved the dogs and pedigree and it was hard....but I passed for this same reason......underage dogs.


I don't get it. I hope I never do get it. Why is breeding so important that people can't wait?


----------



## GoldenGator

I had heard that penn hip was more reliable than OFA and wondered why OFA has become the standard, thanks for clearing that up!


----------



## GoldenGator

Oh & speaking of pedigrees, does anyone know what to make of this one...
Pedigree: Bentley's Dallas

I am not familiar with the dogs. Would this be a good pedigree? What qualifies a pedigree to be called a champion pedigree? And does his pedigree determine whether he is called an English or American Golden?


----------



## Sally's Mom

Bentley's Dallas is not a "champion pedigree". Way back there are "champions" from foreign countries.


----------



## Tahnee GR

It is a pedigree with some champions from eastern Europe/Europe behind it (k9data seems to be having some issues and I can't get back to look at it.) I would not call it a champion pedigree or an English or British pedigree. I really don't use the term "champion pedigree" nor do the other breeders I know. While titles are important, as they are a way of proving breeding stock, titles alone don't make the dog. And titles more than 1 or 2 generations back are not all that meaningful. A lot can change with just one or two generations in dogs.

Not to say he might not be a very nice dog-you would want to have evaluated by some breeders to determine that or even get a CCA on him. Not all dogs with a CCA could finish their championship but it does show the dog meets the requirements of the standard.

What I find more concerning is that there is no history of clearances on either Bentley or Belle-no elbow, hip, eye or heart clearance recorded on the OFA site. PennHip might have done the hips but OFA will register them. Only OFA does elbows though, in the US.  And nothing on eyes or heart, although these two don't have to be registered with OFA to be cleared.


----------



## GoldenGator

I looked up the upcomming CCA events online, but it said he needs to be 18 months old first, so we have another 6 months to wait. How would I go about getting a breeder to evaluate him?


----------



## Sally's Mom

One can get BVA elbow clearances...


----------



## Tahnee GR

Sally's Mom said:


> One can get BVA elbow clearances...


I would imagine that is not often done in the US though. I would think OFA for the US and OVC for Canada to be much more common.


----------



## Tahnee GR

GoldenGator said:


> I looked up the upcomming CCA events online, but it said he needs to be 18 months old first, so we have another 6 months to wait. How would I go about getting a breeder to evaluate him?


If you're interested in conformation and other competive venues, you should look into joining a Golden Retriever club near you. You would meet other Golden people and other Goldens as well.

There is a list of Golden clubs at the GRCA website Golden Retriever Club of America - All About Goldens


----------



## Pointgold

CarolinaCasey said:


> It scares me to think that your 'passing' bitches had littermates (more than 1??) that were dysplastic. Look at the big picture. That is more telling than the clearance of 1 dog. If multiple littermates are dysplastic- that's not a coincidence. I wouldn't want to be breeding dogs with that kind of pedigree of poor hip health, and especially not breeding the one passing bitch's offspring without a proper clearance. That's negligent.


 
If I were looking at a dog or bitch to breed, and s/he were an OFA Excellent but had dysplastic litter mates (plural!?) there is NO WAY I'd breed him or her. 
Can you spell "Vertical Pedigree"?

Sheesh.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

First I agree with everyone what was the big rush!?!? As reputable breeders that stand apart from BYB, we must always take the high road. As hard as it is if one of our dogs dose not pass a recommended clearance we have to do the right thing and alter the dog. I have had to do that once it was painful as the boy was my future. I picked my self up and dusted off and got back on the horse. 

Second I have in the past couple of years chosen to do both OFA prelims and final hips and elbows as well as Penn-Hip. IMO both tests are needed to get the best passable information on a prospective sire or dam. 

With that said I would not get a Penn-Hip done at an early age even though they say you can have it done at 20 weeks. The results can change dramatically for example My vet was getting certified by Penn state to conduct this test. He offered to do two of my dogs for free so I though why not I chose two dogs a boy at a year of age and girl at 25 week.

The girls came out awful and the boys more acceptable. I had them both redone at the age of two and both where much better ratings. 

IMO you should also wait until the dogs are over 24 months to do Penn-Hip as well.


----------



## Sally's Mom

GRCA COE wants PennHip, OVC,etc at or after 24 months anyway.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

I agree 24 month is the GRCA recommendation however some breeders are doing Penn-hip on boys so they can prove them early. Not that I agree with this it is being done.


----------



## Sally's Mom

Lots of things are done that I don't agree with... just sayin' that the GRCA has a position on this.


----------



## AmbikaGR

Sally's Mom said:


> Lots of things are done that I don't agree with... just sayin' that the GRCA has a position on this.



Sally's Mom is correct. The GRCA COE addresses PennHip as wel as OVC, BVA and others. These are all acceptable provided they are done AFTER the dog is 24 months or older at time of the xray/exam. So unless these are done after the dog is 24 months old they are not acceptable according to the GRCA COE.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

I totally agree


----------



## annef

Just looked at the pedigree and wanted to explain that a JCh is not the same as a champion. In some countries they award CAC's in the junior class (12 to 18 months) so to do this all a dog has to do is to win either 2 or 3 of these classes- some times with very few dogs in. To become a champion they have to win 3 CAC's either from open or the working class. Regulations vary from country to country. To become an international champion they have to win CACIB's and in 2 different countries (Ithink) This is a harder title to win but much easier than CC'S in the UK where the CC winner has to beat every dog of the same sex present including all the champions and has to win 3CC's to become a Sh Ch and get a special show gundog working certificate to become a Ch. Hope this helps when looking at European and UK pedigrees Anne


----------



## Sally's Mom

Annef,
At what age are BVA clearances considered final? How about the other European clearances?


----------



## annef

BVA clearances are at 1 year on hips and elbows. Eyes can be certified at any time in the UK. I think Europe is the same but would be happy to be corrected on that one. Dogs I have exported have generally had clearances done in Europe at one year. BVA will score any dog once it is over 1 year with no upper age limit. Annef


----------



## Tahnee GR

Annef, for Goldens in the US, breeding age is tied to clearances, which are at 24 months. How does that work in England? If clearances can be received at one year, is it acceptable to breed at one year, or are the two things (clearances and age for breeding) separate of each other?


----------



## annef

The KC will register puppies born to bitches between 1 yr and 8 years. Registration is not linked to health clearances so any puppies can be registered. Bitches are only allowed 4 litters and from next year no more than 2 caesarians. Most golden breeders recommend 2 years as as the minimum age to breed. I generally like mine to have their first litter between 2 and 3 and their 2nd and final litter around 5 but as you know it depends on seasons. 
Reputable breeders would not consider one year old a suitable age to breed from a golden bitch but it can be different in different breeds.

Annef


----------

