# Looking for 'white' english cream breeder in NC or PA



## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

Specifically close to Fayetteville NC or York, PA. 
But will take any breeder info you suggest. (Would just be nice to find a breeder 2 or less hours away).

Golden Creek Kennels is currently OFF our list, but open to any other suggestions! Thanks so much.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Well unfortunately any breeder who advertises his dog as such likely is not breeding responsibly. I strongly suggest you contact one of the local Golden Retriever Clubs in your neck of the woods and inquire with them. 

Greater Pittsburgh GRC

puppyref[email protected]
(412) 931-0590 

Tarheel GRC

http://www.tarheelgrc.org/index.asp?ID=92


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

The breed was developed in the British Isles about 150 or so years and were originally called "Golden Flatcoats." The name was eventually shortened to "Golden Retriever." 

To be honest, there's no such thing as white English creme goldens. It's simply a marketing twist on our beloved breed, capitalizing on what is perceived to be the public's preference for lighter colored dogs. And with this increase in demand, comes a bigger price tag--just for color. All rather bogus. (JMHO)

You'll find goldens of varying shades in each litter--color should be the last thing you consider when choosing a pet; it certainly is when breeders make their breeding decisions. You want to focus on temperament--is your family laid back? On the go? Do you have a large yard? Or a small one? Travel a lot or a little? So much more important than color. Good luck in your search!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Just to clarify my short answer above.
There is NOTHING wrong with having a preference in what shade of Gold you want. You will be able to find good responsible breeders who can provide you with what you are looking for in the way of color. Just avoid ANY breeder who advertises their litters as "white", "creme", "cream", "platinum", "silver" and where "English" is added to any of these terms. :no:

You just can not be in a hurry to find it. If you continue to do your homework and can be patient you will find exactly what you want. 

Good luck in your search. :wavey:


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

I'm sorry! What i meant was, i was looking for an english cream breeder in general... specifically a white/cream color. Surely i can't be the only one who wants a specific color of a breed? Of course we'll make sure the puppy fits our lifestyle and hopefully the breeder helps with that as well. 

Thanks.


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

Oh, thanks AmbikaGR. We musta posted around the same time. I kinda felt like i needed to explain myself there for a second.


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

Or are you saying there is no such thing as an English Cream Golden Retreiver? Either way, i'm new to this breed, and i like the look of the English better than American.
This forum will give me lots of info, has already. So TIA!!


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

I think all that Hank was warning you about was to be very careful of breeders who advertise "Rare English Creme" and expect more money for the coloration. Lighter goldens have become more popular and there are some breeders are pushing the lighter color the same as some breeders are selling goldendoodles for exhorbadent sp. prices. Read the "Puppy Buyers Fact Checker" at the top of the page for some help in selecting a great breeder for your pup. You can find great breeders that can get you a pup any color you want as long as it is gold.


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## Doolin (Jun 23, 2008)

I think you will find that the responsible breeders of dogs who look similar to those in Great Britain and Europe will not call them "White, Creme, etc..." They will simply refer to them as Golden Retrievers. 

Take your time and definitely ask around about breeders you come across, as there are many more less then reputable breeders then reputable in this style...


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

xSLZx said:


> Or are you saying there is no such thing as an English Cream Golden Retreiver?



BINGO!!! 





xSLZx said:


> Either way, i'm new to this breed, and i like the look of the English better than American.
> This forum will give me lots of info, has already. So TIA!!


I again think you are using incorrect terms here. By the "look of the English" do you mean lighter in color? If so you would be surprised that the vast majority of "English" Goldens are not light in color. And there are many folks on this forum who live in Great Britain that will tell you that also. Now there are some differences in the conformation of an "English" type vs an "American" type but as a newcomer to the breed I tend to doubt that is what yoou are referring to.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

xSLZx said:


> Or are you saying there is no such thing as an English Cream Golden Retreiver? Either way, i'm new to this breed, and i like the look of the English better than American.
> This forum will give me lots of info, has already. So TIA!!


There is no such thing as an English Cream Golden Retriever. It's not a separate breed, nor is it a recognized subset of the breed or anything of the sort.

The English kennel club has a slightly different standard than the American, so there's a typical "look" that differs a bit between dogs bred on each side of the pond.

If what you want is a light dog, there are plenty of great breeders who can help you out. If you want a dog bred to the English standard, there are a few people on this side of the pond doing that. They often refer to their dogs as English-type Golden Retrievers, and they don't only breed white dogs.

However, if you go looking for an "English Cream Retriever" online you're going to end up with white dogs imported from Eastern Europe with very little concern paid to health, longevity, and temperament.

What are you looking for? A light coat? A blocky head? A more barrel-shaped torso and shorter legs?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I cannot speak from personal experience but Tanglewood Golden Retrievers in South Carolina breeds primarily from European lines. I just glanced at her website but she certainly appears to do all required clearances, participates in conformation shows (and has some Canadian champions) and has at least one dog with a Junior Hunter.

You can check out her website and, if that is the style that attracts you, you could contact her. Just remember that it may take some searching and you may have to wait for the right breeder with the right pup, but it will be well worth the wait. This puppy will be a member of your family for many, many years.

http://www.tanglewoodgoldens.com/index.html

Read "A Puppy Buyers Fact Checker" and make sure that whatever breeder you end up with does all required clearances on all breeding dogs, doesn't require the puppy back for the warranty to be in effect and is experienced and willing to provide support to you and your puppy.


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## mxhay (Jul 13, 2010)

Don't get caught up in the marketing of white goldens in the U.S.! Most are not good breeders if thats their marketing angle. Look in Canada (where they can show white goldens) or be happy with a lighter golden from a good breeder in the U.S. We have been looking for a lighter golden as well and are not impressed w/ breeders in the our area (MI). Contact your local golden retriever club for suggestions.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

mxhay said:


> Don't get caught up in the marketing of white goldens in the U.S.! Most are not good breeders if thats their marketing angle. Look in Canada (where they can show white goldens) or be happy with a lighter golden from a good breeder in the U.S. We have been looking for a lighter golden as well and are not impressed w/ breeders in the our area (MI). Contact your local golden retriever club for suggestions.


I couldn't agree more; originally, the American and British standards for golden retrievers addressing the acceptable range of coat colors were one and the same. It's my understanding that the British updated the standard in the 1930's to allow "cream" as an acceptable shade of gold, since some of the yellow retrievers being used as breeding stock were lighter than the standard permitted at the time. But neither standard --the US nor the British-- permits "white." A breeder who is deliberately breeding for that white coat color is not committed to the golden retriever standard, and IMHO, I then wonder, what other parts of the standard is that breeder ignoring? It boggles my mind that coat color should command such a high price when the premium should be paid for verified health clearances instead. (JMHO)


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

The English seem rather shorter than American, as well as square-ish looking heads. From the pics i have seen of both kinds, i liked the look of English better. Both are cute dogs don't get me wrong, and we didn't veto Americans. In fact, i'm sure we'll end up with an American since it's so hard to find what we are looking for without paying an arm and a leg.

We want a white or cream golden. Some may say there are no such thing as 'white' goldens. Ok, the 'lighter' color is what we like. Not golden, not fox red. I don't know how else to explain this. 

It's good to know there are no such things as an 'english cream golden', which is why i'm glad i joined this forum. I'm learning a lot from here, and as a newcomer to this breed, i just assumed they were 'real' since i've seen tons of breeders websites containing this 'kind' of dog.

for example... here are the breeders we were/are considering. Would anyone like to take a gander and give me your opinions?

Thanks.

first choice - http://www.creeksideretrievers.com/page2/page2.html

http://www.solidrockgoldens.com/index.html

http://www.marcysgoldens.com/index.html


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

xSLZx said:


> The English seem rather shorter than American, as well as square-ish looking heads. From the pics i have seen of both kinds, i liked the look of English better. Both are cute dogs don't get me wrong, and we didn't veto Americans. In fact, i'm sure we'll end up with an American since it's so hard to find what we are looking for without paying an arm and a leg.
> 
> We want a white or cream golden. Some may say there are no such thing as 'white' goldens. Ok, the 'lighter' color is what we like. Not golden, not fox red. I don't know how else to explain this.
> 
> ...



They *ALL* advertise their dogs as English Cream. This is a marketing ploy. As we have stated previously there is no such thing. I would not get a dog from any of those breeders.

How far are you willing to travel? Maybe someone can recommend some good breeders to you. In the mean time, please read the 'Puppy Buyer's Fact Checker' at the top of the 'choosing a breeder' subsection of the forum.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

If you would like an opinion from some one who does breed UK goldens on the other side of the pond I would be running away as fast as I could from all these kennels. There are USA breeders who breed with UK lines who are responsible breeders who do all the clearances and there are very experienced people on this forum that will guide you in the right direction. English creams do not exist, firstly as they are a Scottish breed and secondly UK goldens can be almost as dark as goldens in the USA Annef


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

Am i 'running away' from these breeders just because they claim to have english creams? Or do you think they're not breeding the dogs well?

Do you think they are calling them "eglish creams" because they're 'english' and 'cream' in color? 

I'm just trying to understand the faults of these breeders aside from what they are calling the light colored goldens.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

It sounds as though you're looking for a "light" golden retriever similar to this one.

http://s86.photobucket.com/albums/k99/Swampcollie/?action=view&current=IMG_1050SMALL.jpg

Base your search on factual criteria rather than marketing buzz words and you'll find success. Goldens come in various shades of gold from light to medium to very dark. That is as true in the US as it is in the UK. The little girl in the photo is linebred on an old dog from decades past called Tigathoe's Kiowa II. Light colored goldens are not new nor are they rare. They can be found all across North America.


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

Oh and yes, i'm looking for suggested breeders (hence the original post). 
We live in NC are from PA. We do not want to pay for shipping, we'd rather drive to get the puppy. This is why we need breeders from either state. We are also close enough to Myrtle Beach, SC that it could work to travel there as well.

Thanks.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

xSLZx said:


> first choice - http://www.creeksideretrievers.com/page2/page2.html
> 
> http://www.solidrockgoldens.com/index.html
> 
> http://www.marcysgoldens.com/index.html


Quick lesson on clearances:

Hips/Elbows should be final clearances, not preliminary records. You can tell the difference by the OFA numbers and by the certificate itself. Final clearances include both letters and numbers ie GR-123456G24M. Prelims are numbers only. Final clearances are printed on half sheets of colored paper, prelims are printed full sheets on white paper.

Cardiac should have been done by a cardiologist or specialist, not a practitioner (normal vet). Cardiologists have special training and/or equipment to hear problems a normal vet might not hear.

Eye clearances should be done on a YEARLY basis, not just once and need to have been done by a canine eye doctor, not just a normal vet.

Creekside lists 2 bitches:

Creekside Queen Anne’s Lace - she has a hip clearance and a cardiac clearance listed in OFA. The Cardiac clearance was done by a practioner (normal vet) not a cardiologist. There is no current eye clearance listed with CERF but that could just mean they didn't send it in. There is no elbow clearance listed with OFA.

Creekside Princess Camomile - has only a cardiac clearance listed with OFA again done by a practitioner. No final clearances for hips or elbows listed with OFA and no current eye clearances listed on CERF. Again, CERF may not have been sent in.

Solid Rock - 5 litters currently. Hips, elbows certs look good on most of their dogs. A couple of dogs are listed incorrectly as being OFA Excellent when their actual OFA record says Good though. No current eye clearances listed with CERF for most of them though. Hearts were done by practitioners for most dogs. Their guarantee requires the return of YOUR puppy to receive a replacement puppy - BIG warning sign. Most reputable breeders do not require the return of the puppy in order to honor their warranty/guarantee.

Marcy's Goldens - BIG warning signs here - very few registered names listed so VERY difficult to verify clearances. What registered names are listed are spelled incorrectly - again making it difficult to verify. They warrantee only against "all serious life altering genetic disease, that will cause the dog to die or to be put down - provided for two years after the date of sale, and must be determined by at least two veterinarians." but specifically state that does not include hips.

If you have your heart set on the English-type (which is what they really are - not a color but a TYPE of Golden), Tanglewood (http://www.tanglewoodgoldens.com) is a good suggestion if for nothing else than they are not just pumping out their pups. They are also competing (and winning) with their dogs and seem to be more interested in the breed as a whole rather than as a marketing scheme.


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

Swampcollie said:


> It sounds as though you're looking for a "light" golden retriever similar to this one.
> 
> http://s86.photobucket.com/albums/k99/Swampcollie/?action=view&current=IMG_1050SMALL.jpg
> 
> Base your search on factual criteria rather than marketing buzz words and you'll find success. Goldens come in various shades of gold from light to medium to very dark. That is as true in the US as it is in the UK. The little girl in the photo is linebred on an old dog from decades past called Tigathoe's Kiowa II. Light colored goldens are not new nor are they rare. They can be found all across North America.


More white than that. But we won't be picky about it. If we can't come across a white/cream puppy, we'll go with a lighter gold. Here are some examples of what we'd love to have.

http://www.hiddenmeadowenglishgoldens.com/images/WhiteGoldenRetrieverFancyPic.PNG

http://cdn-www.dailypuppy.com/media/dogs/anonymous/millie_golden_retriever_01.jpg_w450.jpg

http://dogpictures.bloglog.hu/files/2009/08/white-golden-retriever.jpg


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

ragtym said:


> Quick lesson on clearances:
> 
> Hips/Elbows should be final clearances, not preliminary records. You can tell the difference by the OFA numbers and by the certificate itself. Final clearances include both letters and numbers ie GR-123456G24M. Prelims are numbers only. Final clearances are printed on half sheets of colored paper, prelims are printed full sheets on white paper.
> 
> ...


 
Thank You! I wish i could figure this all out on my own. I'm glad i found this forum, so when we do find a breeder, we will get the "ok" from here first. I have checked out tanglewood from other posts on here. They are bookmarked. Thanks.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

xSLZx said:


> Thank You! I wish i could figure this all out on my own. I'm glad i found this forum, so when we do find a breeder, we will get the "ok" from here first. I have checked out tanglewood from other posts on here. They are bookmarked. Thanks.


hehe - I'm glad you found us as well and you're welcome. 

BTW, don't feel bad about not being able to figure this out on your own. Some of these "breeders" are very adept at hiding and/or twisting things to make themselves look knowledgeable and trustworthy. They count on the average puppy buyer not knowing how to verify information and can look and sound very convincing. 

You might find this helpful: http://grca.org/allabout/a_find5.html - it gives some guidelines about what to look for in a reputable, responsible breeder.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

xSLZx said:


> More white than that. But we won't be picky about it. If we can't come across a white/cream puppy, we'll go with a lighter gold. Here are some examples of what we'd love to have.
> 
> http://www.hiddenmeadowenglishgoldens.com/images/WhiteGoldenRetrieverFancyPic.PNG
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that puppies will darken as they mature, so those puppies you're looking at will grow darker. Look for actual un-edited photos of adult dogs included in a prospective pups ancestory. 
Remember the breed is called _Golden Retriever_ for a reason. It is not called a White Retriever. If you're set on a white dog, perhaps a Great Pyrenees would be more to your tastes.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Also check out Kyon kennels in Ontario, Canada:

http://www.kyonkennels.com/Retrievers/Goldens.htm

They may not be close, but it doesn't hurt to ask them about what they have and if they know of any pups closer to you. Don't focus on the colour, look for health first. It's like a car - do you want a white car that lives in the shop and costs you a lot in bills, or a yellow car that you can count on?

Lana


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

xSLZx said:


> More white than that. But we won't be picky about it. If we can't come across a white/cream puppy, we'll go with a lighter gold. Here are some examples of what we'd love to have.
> 
> http://www.hiddenmeadowenglishgoldens.com/images/WhiteGoldenRetrieverFancyPic.PNG
> 
> ...


BTW, here's an interesting tidbit for you - see the color of those puppies' ears? That's a close approximation of the color that they will be when they are adults. All three of those puppies will be a bit darker than their body coat is now.


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

ragtym said:


> BTW, here's an interesting tidbit for you - see the color of those puppies' ears? That's a close approximation of the color that they will be when they are adults. All three of those puppies will be a bit darker than their body coat is now.


Thanks! I figured they'd darken up. Though i've seen very light/white looking OLDER dogs as well. So i know they exsist. I'm not talking snow white, and like i said, we're not picky about it. We just want a REALLY light light light golden. If you google around, you will see some adult goldens who are very light in color and look almost white.

Keep in mind that this is NOT why we are getting a puppy. The color is just what we would like to have. Some prefer that fox red color. We prefer the VERY light color. This is why we are having a more difficult time finding a good breeders website. The ones we are finding are all calling them "english cream". I know there is a breeder out there who will breed the color we are looking for as well as the personality we are looking for. it's just a matter of finding them. And it's hard when you're limited to certain distances.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

It is difficult but not impossible to find pale (as we call them)goldens. I have a mixture as you can see on the pictures. Perhaps look for UK bred goldens or Scandanavian breeding and not from a site that calls them 'english creams' It may be worth looking at some of the Canadian breeders as there is some UK breeding there and they may have sold dogs to the USA. I hope you find a lovely puppy . Annef


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Somebody with more time should do a good sticky on this.... seems to come up all the time!

Lana


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

On that note, i was looking around but couldn't find this, but it may be a helpful thing, if we could get it together.

An actual thread with links in each state of reputable breeders. I saw threads of people asking for breeders in different states, and went through a good 12 pages to find all the links i could for NC and PA.
It'd be nice if there was one thread, but then with all the links that you guys recommend in the different states. For example:

Alabama
- link
-link

Alaska
-link
link

Arizona
-link
-link



Just throwing that idea out there.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

xSLZx said:


> On that note, i was looking around but couldn't find this, but it may be a helpful thing, if we could get it together.
> 
> An actual thread with links in each state of reputable breeders. I saw threads of people asking for breeders in different states, and went through a good 12 pages to find all the links i could for NC and PA.
> It'd be nice if there was one thread, but then with all the links that you guys recommend in the different states. For example:
> ...


Actually that is pretty much what I did in the very first response to your post. Look below and you will see the contact info for the two Golden Retriever Clubs close to the areas you asked for. They will be able to help you out. But again it will likely take a little time and patience to find THAT dog. But as the saying "Anything worth having is well worth waiting for". 



AmbikaGR said:


> Well unfortunately any breeder who advertises his dog as such likely is not breeding responsibly. I strongly suggest you contact one of the local Golden Retriever Clubs in your neck of the woods and inquire with them.
> 
> Greater Pittsburgh GRC
> 
> ...


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

I did check those. Thanks. The Tarheel one has a link to click for the breeders, but it doesn't work. Waiting for them to get back to me.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Get a Red Golden. No one ever argues about them


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

xSLZx said:


> Thanks! I figured they'd darken up. Though i've seen very light/white looking OLDER dogs as well. So i know they exsist. I'm not talking snow white, and like i said, we're not picky about it. We just want a REALLY light light light golden. If you google around, you will see some adult goldens who are very light in color and look almost white.
> 
> Keep in mind that this is NOT why we are getting a puppy. The color is just what we would like to have. Some prefer that fox red color. We prefer the VERY light color. This is why we are having a more difficult time finding a good breeders website. The ones we are finding are all calling them "english cream". I know there is a breeder out there who will breed the color we are looking for as well as the personality we are looking for. it's just a matter of finding them. And it's hard when you're limited to certain distances.


In your situation, I'd try to establish a relationship with a great breeder and mention that after health and temperament, you have a soft spot for light dogs. Most great breeders produce a range of colors, and there's a good chance that if you're patient, the breeder will have a light colored dog who's a good fit for you.

I have a soft spot for the red dogs, and Comet's breeder has produced the full range of colors. In Comet's litter, there were very light dogs all the way through to Comet's color (he's the dog in the lead in my signature picture). Comet happened to have the right qualities in his early temperament testing and the color I like too, so after many discussions with his breeder, we decided together that he was the right dog for us.

You're going to be a lot happier with a healthy, well bred Golden of wonderful, appropriate temperament who's a little darker than you prefer than you will be with a super-light dog of questionable ancestry and temperament.

I think when we visualize the dog we want in our lives, we think a lot about look. But when we think about all the things we really want in a companion dog, color isn't nearly so important. I'd encourage you to keep color in your mind as a preference, but consciously put it below health, longevity, and temperament on your list of priorities. It sounds like you're already doing that.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

AmbikaGR said:


> Just to clarify my short answer above.
> There is NOTHING wrong with having a preference in what shade of Gold you want. You will be able to find good responsible breeders who can provide you with what you are looking for in the way of color. Just avoid ANY breeder who advertises their litters as "white", "creme", "cream", "platinum", "silver" and where "English" is added to any of these terms. :no:
> 
> You just can not be in a hurry to find it. If you continue to do your homework and can be patient you will find exactly what you want.
> ...


This is a good answer. I don't know why breeders need these marketing tricks. I guess they are not confident enough to know they have good dogs.


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## Lennap (Jul 9, 2010)

I am not nearly as educated as the others in this thread, but there are two points that I haven't seen in anyone's posts, and I think they are both important enough to share.

1. I have read and heard that there are temperament issues with the "English Creme/White" goldens - so making sure you go to a responsible breeder is going to be that much more important for you - since in the end what you really want is a Golden (and the loving/goofy nature they represent)! 

2. I would NEVER consider a breeder who had 5 litters at the same time! Every single dog should be reserved before a breeding takes place. I recognize this does not always happen - but to have that many dogs available at once is completely irresponsible.

People never believe me when I tell them I got Remy from a rescue - they always ask who gives up a golden retriever?! Well the answer is really irresponsible breeders that have more dogs than they can sell - or people who were not ready for the challenge of a puppy (and were therefore not throughly screened before purchase).

I totally understand wanting a dog NOW - and wanting to find a breeder that has a dog available, vs waiting until a breeding occurs. But if a breeder had more than one or two pups available - it would raise all kinds of questions in my mind.

Good luck


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

You may want to look at what dogs are winning in Canada (CKC) where the standard allows for cream colored dogs and many dogs are brought in from the UK to show. Although it is not ALWAYS the case for the most part, people who breed to show their dogs will also be careful about clearances and working to better the breed. 

In fact the Golden Retriever Club of Canada National Specialty was last week, so they should have some pictures up or they will soon. Then contact the kennels who have dogs you like and go from there. Ask them if they have any referrals closer to you, or if any of their dogs have offspring close to you.

This is an odd comment I know, but have you guys noted that so many of these females conveniently seem to come into heat within a month after their second b-day?


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

Thanks! When i say "now" i don't mean this very second i want a puppy. I have spent the last couple weeks, probably 2 months, looking for a breeder (still have yet to find one) who will breed what i am looking for but who is also reputable. We thought we wanted a labrador at first, but after reading about both breeds, i think a golden will fit our family a lot better. I am definitely willing to wait for the breeding to occur if we find the right breeders for us. My "now" is sometime in the next few months, or early next year. As opposed to years down the road.

I definitely feel like i will find the breeder i am looking for with the help of people from this forum. I already got loads of info and i've only been a member for 2 days? lol.


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

Selli-Belle said:


> You may want to look at what dogs are winning in Canada (CKC) where the standard allows for cream colored dogs and many dogs are brought in from the UK to show. Although it is not ALWAYS the case for the most part, people who breed to show their dogs will also be careful about clearances and working to better the breed.
> 
> In fact the Golden Retriever Club of Canada National Specialty was last week, so they should have some pictures up or they will soon. Then contact the kennels who have dogs you like and go from there. Ask them if they have any referrals closer to you, or if any of their dogs have offspring close to you.
> 
> This is an odd comment I know, but have you guys noted that so many of these females conveniently seem to come into heat within a month after their second b-day?


 
Thanks. That is a good tip!


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## PC Mom (Oct 30, 2009)

I understand what you mean in that you like what you've heard call the "english cream" style. We have one who is VERY light, and he is beautiful. We've also had a very dark red one who was the sweetest dog, and are puppy will likely turn out more standard golden. The thing that rubs people the wrong way on here is the terms English cream (and the like) because many bad breeders are using this as a ploy to get people to buy their dogs. As you've read on here, it's kind of a red flag. You CAN find a reputable breeder who has light goldens with the blocky heads, but you may have to dig through some junk breeders first. 

I am not on my home computer, so I apologize that I don't have the links, but there are two breeders who I spoke with when we began our search for our puppy. We didn't choose to go with them for various reasons, mostly timing and proximity, but they seemed to be on the right track. One was Ventess Goldens out of NC. They actually are British-both the people and the dogs. The adults used to live in England and when the moved to the states, they brought their Goldens with them and have continued to breed. Like I said, I didn't check into them too far because the timing wasn't right so I don't know if they have their hips/elbows/eyes/heart clearances, but I'd check into them. 

I can't remember the other one, but there was another breeder in OH that I talked to who had beautiful, very light colored dogs. What I really appreciated about her was that she was very honest about the dogs personalities. I'll get the name tomorrow and edit it on here.

When you contact these breeders, may I make the suggestion not to say right away that you want the English Cream. Just as it's a red flag for people on here, it's a red flag also for reputable breeders. You aren't looking for a white dog, you are looking for a healthy, long term companion, who has a personality who works with you and your family, who you would prefer to have a blocky head and be light in color. It's OK to have a preference, but it's not the most important thing, and I think you are starting to realize this.

By the way, I don't know if you have figured this out yet or not, but males traditionally have a blockier head than females. My husband strongly prefers the looks of the males over the females, so even though we have 2 sons and an older male golden, we ended up with another male puppy! The personalities are a little different too, males tend to be more "I love you, I love you, I love you!" while females are more "Love me, love me, love me." It's a subtle difference (and one that many people won't agree with) but talk to the breeders who you are looking seriously at and see what they say.

Also, Lennap has a good point about rescues. We have worked with the rescue in our area and it's amazing the reasons people give up their golden pets, but regardless, it is a good chance for you to get a dog who isn't an itty-bitty puppy (although we've seen a lot of puppies come through our rescue, most are 6 months or so, but occasionally much younger!) and who has a look like you want. There are lots of rescues in NC including Cape Fear. I don't know where that is relative to you, but there are several people who seem to be active in that rescue on this board. Often there is an application process, much like good breeders, and it can take some time. 

Good luck with your search. I'll post the name of that Ohio breeder when I get home tomorrow.


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

Hey thanks. I actually won't need the OH link (since we don't want to pay for shipping), but i'll take that NC link for sure!

My husband won't do a rescue. He's worried about our kids. If it was just me and him, i'm sure there'd be no problem. He's very cautious with rescues. I would love to. I actually saw one that i fell inlove with just from the picture. He is only 2.5 years old. I did email the rescue to see if they adopt out to people who have very small children (as i have heard a lot won't). 

We would have no problem taking an american golden who is light in color. The 'english cream' look is what i was really attracted to. And by English cream.... the english style dog, who is white/cream. I understand the breeders who advertise this probably mean the same thing, and i'm sure a lot of them are reputable but are just calling them 'english cream', for the attention it gives them. However, we have crossed off a lot of those breeders from our lists, since most people here are saying not to go with them. I am willing to listen to these people since a lot are breeders themselves, or have huge amounts of knowledge on them.

We just have to figure out now, who we want to go with, if we want a puppy or a slightly older puppy 1-2 years. And also depends if the breeder will adopt out to us since we have youngins.
But i'm still looking around for links. So, i'll gladly accept!

Thanks!


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## DogLover (Jul 8, 2010)

There are a few very good ones in Canada...... We are looking at Dreamkeeper Goldens in Canada


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

To my way of looking at things, those buyers who are intent on a particular coat color--especially those who are set on as pale a coat color as they can get--run into some stumbling blocks, that are not entirely insurmountable, but need to be considered, when researching a breeder--

1. These buyers seek a golden that, if the entire litter is bred to be extremely pale, almost white or white, does not meet the AKC standard because of coat color. The way I look at it, your typical breeder doesn't have the need to be an AKC registered breeder--and be reviewed by the AKC, or follow GRCA Code of Ethics or look at their breeding stock in the same way, with the same level of detail because coat color, and coat color alone, is what is driving the price. We all could argue blocky heads and bigger bone is also driving up the price (that body style) but I think if a pup came along with that pale, white coat color, most future buyers would not notice if the head was blocky or not.

That's not to say that there aren't responsible breeders, listed with the AKC, and members of the GRCA, breeding more along the lines of the British standard, where cream is an acceptable color--and knowing that the cream and white goldens will not be suitable for US conformation, and earmark them for pet homes, or, if their structure is exceptional, for breeding purposes. Those are the breeders that someone who is mainly interested in coat color will have to zero in on--and in my mind, there's not going to be a lot of breeders like that out there, because there's just not a big incentive to do that, expect for the love of the breed, as a pure hobbyist. And we know even as those who breed true to the American standard, at least IMHO, there are few true hobbyists.

2. Second group are those breeders who breed according to the American (AKC) standard but import, either through frozen semen, or purchasing a brood bitch or stud dog--or some other way--perhaps leasing a golden? a golden from overseas to add an outcross breeding to their lines. In that litter you can expect an array of body types and colors and a puppy buyer can work with that breeder to see if there is a pup that might meet their expectations in color and temperament and sex. Several breeders do this--I know mine bought a bitch from England to augment her American lines--I've seen other breeders do this. She also brought in semen from Sweden, from a Swedish champion. The good breeders search both sides of the pond to see what might make a good pairing.

3. Last, but not least, and this to me, is the route that is easiest to follow, is to contact all the good "American" breeders in your area, and be honest and explain that you do prefer the palest of the pale golden retrievers, and would like to be on a waiting list for the palest of the pale puppy in any litter. But then be prepared to wait it out for seeing if you match up with your temperament requirements--and if the pup is the sex you want. You face a situation where, and all of the breeders on this GRF can correct me if I'm wrong, COAT COLOR is the LAST THING that breeders consider when selecting sire and dam. When puppy buyers make it their FIRST THING, well, to me, you have a disconnect. The reason to purchase a golden? Yep, it's a good looking dog--it's a golden--all shades of gold--but the main reason? To me, it's that glorious temperament--the golden does not have a quarrelsome bone in its body--towards other people or dogs. To me, that's the reason to get a golden--that's why you deal with a reputable breeder--to match up a golden's temperament with one that will suit your family. Doesn't matter if you have a white dog that is an athlete that goes and goes all day--if your family is a couch potato, you all would have been much better suited with the solid gold blond laid back fluff ball. Temperament trumps color (IMHO).


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

When it comes down to the nitty gritty, color is the last thing to even think about. Goldens have that wonderful, family oriented temperment. I have NEVER met a golden who was mean or unfriendly. But you have a variety of colors to chose from. I don't want this post to make it sound as though we only want a blonde golden, just because we like the color white. It's the last thing that is on our minds. the blonde coat is what we would like to have, but if we find an amazing breeder who's puppies come out more gold, that is completely fine. We're checking out the breeders who have the cream goldens to begin with. They're offspring typically are the same color. If we don't find what we are looking for, we will move on. All goldens are amazing. No matter what the color. the light color is just the first choice we'd like. Even lighter gold. But again, color isn't what we're basing our search off of. We first need to find a great breeder, and go from there. We might end up lucky enough to find everything we want. It's just a matter of time.

I'm currently checking into a possible rescue. He's 2.5 and is that light color we like, and from what i read, he seems loving.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I can understand having a color preference, but as you said, don't let it stand in the way. My pup Flora is a big boned blondie, but I much prefer the look of the smaller boned, red/dark red goldens. That said, I love her to pieces and I think she's the most gorgeous dog in the world.

If I were you, I'd just start out right now looking for stellar breeders in your area, regardless of the color of the dogs they're producing. Then maybe you can whittle it down to a breeder or two that produces dogs you find aesthetically appealing. #1 goal in your mind should be to find a dog that comes from healthy, happy lines. Good luck!


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

I wouldn't totally discount a rescue dog. All of mine have been rescues, and all have been wonderful, loving dogs with the typical golden personality. The nice thing about many rescues is that often the dogs are in foster homes, so the foster can get a really idea of the dog's personality, issues if any, etc. I think if you do your homework and work with a good rescue, you might be surprised at the great dogs available.


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## DBrothers (Jul 6, 2009)

We got our puppy from Carolina Country Kennels in Knotts Island NC (Just below the Va line near Va Beach) We didn't do a great deal of research and had never heard of "English Creames" before we got Runner, but at 14 mo. she is doing really well, and there are several litter mates and cousins in my neighborhood most are light, but not all. Didn't do a link, but you can run a Google search and see her web site.


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## animallover (Jul 18, 2010)

I got Hannah here in Lancaster County and she was almost white as a puppy. By 2 she had darkened only a little. My breeder never advertised her as an "English Creme". Lots of people over 2 years always asked if she was one... Obviously, she wasn't. Our new girl is light but really a "champagne" color.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

It isn't reliable to choose puppies by color anyway. Yes, the ears may tell the future, but it is not guaranteed to be accurate.

Both Comet and Dakota were very light, **** near white, as puppies.

Comet (see Avatar) turned out to be a big beautiful Read Head (or very close to it).

Dakota was classified as a 'light' golden, and stayed light for 6-8 years, then turn quite dark gold towards the end.

Gilmour and Milo were about the same color as pups. Gilmour is a medium gold, and Milo is leaning towards dark Gold. I would not be surprised if Milo turns reddish before it's all over.



xSLZx said:


> When it comes down to the nitty gritty, color is the last thing to even think about. Goldens have that wonderful, family oriented temperment. I have NEVER met a golden who was mean or unfriendly. But you have a variety of colors to chose from. I don't want this post to make it sound as though we only want a blonde golden, just because we like the color white. It's the last thing that is on our minds. the blonde coat is what we would like to have, but if we find an amazing breeder who's puppies come out more gold, that is completely fine. We're checking out the breeders who have the cream goldens to begin with. They're offspring typically are the same color. If we don't find what we are looking for, we will move on. All goldens are amazing. No matter what the color. the light color is just the first choice we'd like. Even lighter gold. But again, color isn't what we're basing our search off of. We first need to find a great breeder, and go from there. We might end up lucky enough to find everything we want. It's just a matter of time.
> 
> I'm currently checking into a possible rescue. He's 2.5 and is that light color we like, and from what i read, he seems loving.


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

I think they're all beautiful. Honestly. I wish they didn't lock the post so i could edit my headline. I think more and more people will come in here and not read through all the threads and just keep replying to my original post. I get there are no such things as english cream. It was a good lesson learned. And good thing i learned about it sooner than later and didn't actually go to the breeders we saw on the few websites claiming english creams.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Some people don't have time to go through each post, so they just reply and late realize that you have already learned the lesson and that their post came a little late.

If you'd still like help with breeder suggestions, begin a new thread in this puppy section.


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

Yeah, that's why i wish i could just delete it or make a new headline.

I think someone wanted it stickied because a lot of people come on here asking for english cream breeders. But i honestly don't think this thread is going to help them. I don't see why they'd come in this thread to begin with.


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## Chilton (Jul 3, 2010)

Good that you're doing your homework. So many get suckered by slick websites and end up with unhealthy, poorly socialized puppies.

It seems that you are getting most of your information from reading about goldens, rather than first-hand experience. Reading is a good start, but the rightly-earned stereotype of the good-natured, docile family dog doesn't tell the whole story, and it'd do you well to spend some time around goldens before committing to the breed.

Do you have kids? Goldens are not always the ultimate family dog that they're made out to be, especially for those with small children. Golden puppies are bred to be mouthy, and they love to sink their needle-like teeth into EVERYTHING -- especially you and your kids, and your kids' playmates.

Golden pups also tend to be highly exuberant, and they grow QUICKLY. Once you have the constant nipping under control, the puppy that you think is a gentle little teddy bear will be soon be mowing your children down like bowling pins.

I don't mean to talk you out of getting a golden, as I know nothing about you, but I'd advise you to consider that most goldens don't become the mature, easy-going family dog that they're made out to be until at least a year of age -- if ever. And in the meantime, you're likely to have a big, silly bull in a china shop on your hands.

Oh, and don't even get me started about the SHEDDING!!! I hope you have lots of 'English Creme' colored clothing, rugs and furniture.

There's nothing as wonderful as a mature, well-behaved golden, but they don't come out of the box that way.

Again, I commend you on doing your homework in advance. Now, do lots more. You're on the right track. Best of luck!


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

Chilton said:


> Good that you're doing your homework. So many get suckered by slick websites and end up with unhealthy, poorly socialized puppies.
> 
> It seems that you are getting most of your information from reading about goldens, rather than first-hand experience. Reading is a good start, but the rightly-earned stereotype of the good-natured, docile family dog doesn't tell the whole story, and it'd do you well to spend some time around goldens before committing to the breed.
> 
> ...


I used to work at a vet hospital. I don't know any goldens personally or where i'd be able to go hang out with them lol, but from the ones i've been around, even the puppies, all seem very sweet. I know about the shedding, that's one thing we talked about. Our chihuahua/terrier sheds, but he is tan, so you can't really see much of the hair until you vaccume. Gross! But yeah, the shedding isn't a big deal. We know we'll have to vaccume and clean a lot more than usual. Also, our dogs aren't allowed on the furnature. So, that will also be one less thing to clean.

We do have kids, which is why we are considering an older puppy between 1 and 3 years. We're keeping our options open for now until we find that 'right' breeder, and then go from there.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

How far away can you travel to visit a dog show during the weekend? There are some shows coming up in North Carolina in the next two months. There is no better place to see what breeders are doing, and to talk to breeders, than at an AKC show. The schedule is posted on line so you have a good idea as to when the goldens are going in the ring, and can watch them being prepped and groomed -- if you feel a connection with someone, or several people, you can tell them you are considering purchasing a puppy and can you talk to them after they are done showing--and you can see a full array of gold(ens). It's a great opportunity (IMHO).


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

That's definitely a good idea, however very unrealistic for us. I think we're doing just fine by finding breeders online or getting suggestions from word of mouth. And of course, this forum. We're not in a super hurry or anything, so i'm sure something will come along in do time.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

When you talk to your husband explain to him about rescues. The dogs in rescues are another victim of this economy. Alot of people have had to turn their dogs in because they have lost their home not because their dogs are bad. They are great pets just a victim of circumstance. And all the dogs are evaluated and checked over to make sure they are healthy and good personalitys before being placed in a home. And the right dogs are placed with the right family. That is one reason there is such a big questionaire and you have to be approved.


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

Yeah, they usually do home visits as well. It's a big process. I'm definitely working on him. I'd love a rescue. I've rescued 2 cats years ago, it's sad how many are in need of homes.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

That is correct. It's a made-up name used by breeders to draw people and get prices up.

Kinda like calling a Pepsi Cola Coca-Pepsi. It's a lie 



xSLZx said:


> Or are you saying there is no such thing as an English Cream Golden Retreiver?


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## vixen (Jul 26, 2008)

just wanted to add one thing,

Golden retrievers do not come in white


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

By 'white', i mean very very light. Some call it blonde, some call it cream. If you look at the forum graphic up there of the pictures of the two dogs. The one on the right....
That is the color we're talking about. Some goldens are so light in color they look white. Especially as puppies.

They're called Golden Retrievers but they are all kinds of shades including red. So, yeh, you get my point.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Ranger says...

"_Black_ is where it's _at_!!"



Seriously, though, I love reading threads like since there's always a wealth of information on choosing breeders, colours, etc. 

I'm going to parrot the "don't discount a rescue" since more and more goldens are showing up. There's a purebred golden retriever, female, 11 months in a No-kill shelter in my neck of the woods right now - the 4th one I've seen in the last few months.

Good luck on your dog hunt!


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

Ranger is adorable!!! 

I'd love to have one in every color. lol. Maybe once the kids are grown.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

xSLZx said:


> By 'white', i mean very very light. Some call it blonde, some call it cream. If you look at the forum graphic up there of the pictures of the two dogs. The one on the right....
> That is the color we're talking about. Some goldens are so light in color they look white. Especially as puppies.
> 
> They're called Golden Retrievers but they are all kinds of shades including red. So, yeh, you get my point.


I have to say, Jack was the lightest of his litter by far. (Here's a photo of him with his littermate to show the comparison.) But Jack has grown to be a true medium gold (as you can see in my signature), which I'm very happy with. I'd actually like him to darken up a bit more. Point is, even with a light puppy you never can tell what you're going to get.


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

Super cute!! and i totally understand, and that is definitely fine. If we got a white puppy and it turned fox red, we wouldn't care. lol. Color is not why we're getting a GR. 

But if we can find a breeder who is breeding two cream color goldens, that would be what we'd go with. (As a first choice). Though i have to say, i'm really starting to love the lighter/medium gold as well.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Even if the parents both have very light fur, they carry genes for darker coloration which could be exhibited in the offspring. My husband and I have blue/green eyes and two of our children have brown eyes.
None of our siblings or parents or any aunts or uncles or grandparents had anything but blue (all shades of blue) or green eyes.
Oh, look at Jack's ear color. Though he is very light, his ears are the same color as his siblings ears. Remember what people have said, the puppy's ears are often the color he will be later.


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

Yeah, that's definitely a good tip. But like i said, it wouldn't matter if it turned darker. We'd love it all the same


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

A good breeder should not worry about color as a priority. Health, temperament, intellegence, etc. should be what they are looking for. If I only included lighter dogs in my line I would comprimise available heathly dogs.


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## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> There is no such thing as an English Cream Golden Retriever. It's not a separate breed, nor is it a recognized subset of the breed or anything of the sort.
> 
> The English kennel club has a slightly different standard than the American, so there's a typical "look" that differs a bit between dogs bred on each side of the pond.
> 
> ...


It is not the first time I see offensive stuff regarding Eastern Europe dogs. Please state they come from shady breeders, because I hate to break it to you that there are amazing breeders in this part of the world. I agree that there are lots of shady breeders(same as everywhere else), even back yard breeders and lots of puppy millers too (some even have kennel names registered under FCI!) but the way you make it sound is completely different. 

And as a side note even here there is a breeder-judge who has wayyyyy too many dogs. And various breeds as well. Do I approve of that? NEVER. Still that breeder is highly seen by many... 

There are breeders here who have very strict guidelines to breeding dogs and showing them. 


I prefer lighter dogs (there is no white Golden though) but I'd never say no to a superb example of the breed who comes in standard Golden color. And it's nothing wrong to admit preference towards cream Goldens.

PS: UK and FCI standard states "any shade of cream of gold" 
And USA type is completely different than any other type in the world (English type, European type (with its subtypes) Australia (who actually has English type) )


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I've noticed that too, and think it deserves a clarification. I don't think it's a jab at eastern European breeders, though. I think the point is that they're marketing them as "English Cream/Creme/Platinum/White" dogs when in reality, they are not "English" at all.


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## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I've noticed that too, and think it deserves a clarification. I don't think it's a jab at eastern European breeders, though. I think the point is that they're marketing them as "English Cream/Creme/Platinum/White" dogs when in reality, they are not "English" at all.


they are, most of them. All can be at least traced back(closer generations) to English dogs. English type has subtypes, as it spread along the continent(also South Africa, Australia, New Zealand), but they can all compete in the same ring. And some famous kennels in Europe have a certain subtype that is their signature. And I strictly refer to type and origin. Not what some breeders in USA market as "English creme" (it's cream but oh well haha)


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## Susan6953 (Jun 9, 2008)

I have to admit that I got kind of sucked into the idea that lighter was more desirable when I was looking for a puppy. There was a range of colors in Jamie's litter and I thought I wanted the lightest one. Luckily the breeder selected our puppy for us and I got my wonderful Jamie. 

Find a breeder you like; I suggest contacting your local golden retriever club. Whichever puppy you get will soon be the best dog ever.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

diana_D said:


> they are, most of them. All can be at least traced back(closer generations) to English dogs. English type has subtypes, as it spread along the continent(also South Africa, Australia, New Zealand), but they can all compete in the same ring. And some famous kennels in Europe have a certain subtype that is their signature. And I strictly refer to type and origin. Not what some breeders in USA market as "English creme" (it's cream but oh well haha)


That makes sense. I guess, in my mind, if I'm looking at an "English" dog it would be bred/born in the UK.  But either way, I don't think it means anyone needs to paint all Eastern European breeders with the same brush.


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## slkuta (Feb 14, 2009)

I see Tanglewood goldens has been mentioned. We adopted Sierra from them, and Joanne is a very excellent breeder.


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## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> That makes sense. I guess, in my mind, if I'm looking at an "English" dog it would be bred/born in the UK.  But either way, I don't think it means anyone needs to paint all Eastern European breeders with the same brush.


hehe not really, a lot of breeders in UK use foreign dogs. It is really difficult to tell. As for the other statement, I totally agree.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I have to say, Jack was the lightest of his litter by far. (Here's a photo of him with his littermate to show the comparison.) But Jack has grown to be a true medium gold (as you can see in my signature), which I'm very happy with. I'd actually like him to darken up a bit more. Point is, even with a light puppy you never can tell what you're going to get.


not entirely true.... most breeders will say that in most cases the puppy will become the color of their ears.... so while a puppy may be very light at the start they often darken up... That having been said how long that takes depends on the dog.... my girl finally darkened to the color of her ears when she was 7. 

I can look at a light colored pup and tell generally what color that puppy will become ... it is not just a guessing game. 
s


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## goldenram (Sep 28, 2010)

I realize I'm coming into this thread late, but wanted to see if xSLZx ever found their golden retriever?


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

goldenram said:


> I realize I'm coming into this thread late, but wanted to see if xSLZx ever found their golden retriever?



Sure did! 

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/member-introductions/84841-introducing-sage.html


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## KellyH (Sep 5, 2010)

My dog who passed away last month was an English style Golden, but she was not born here in the US, but in Israel (I moved to the US with her in 2005). She was bred from English lines by the Israel Guide Dog Centre for the Blind. She was MEANT to be a guide dog but after I raised her for the first 12 months (as they have to be raised by families for that year before they are ready to be trained), she flunked out so I got to keep her. However, she was a very light golden colour - not cream or white, but very much an English Golden. 

As a result I want another English Golden and have been actively looking for the past month or so. It IS hard work to find reputable English breeders in the US, but this forum and the Golden Retriever Club of America were VERY helpful in pointing me in the right direction. I have now found two great breeders who breed English lines and I should have my new puppy by early 2011. Some of their pups have been white/cream and some are more gold colour. I was NEVER interested in the colour - only the English style. They are both fantastic, reputable breeders who come highly recommended. However, they are not close to where I live and I will have to fly to meet them and to get my pup - no matter which breeder I go with. If you want more information feel free to PM me. 

You can also check out my blog (listed in my signature) as it talks specifically about how I went about searching for a reputable "English" breeder.

Good luck in your search!


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## xSLZx (Jul 25, 2010)

Thanks everyone, but this thread is old. As you can tell by my siggy, we got our golden girl  And definitely not what we started out looking for, but that's usually how it goes.


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2009)

xSLZx said:


> Thanks everyone, but this thread is old. As you can tell by my siggy, we got our golden girl  And definitely not what we started out looking for, but that's usually how it goes.


Everything happens for a reason!
You got the golden soul you were meant to have 
Congratulations!!! She's definitely a keeper


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