# Independent Puppy or Normal Behavior?



## jactim23 (Mar 14, 2007)

Hey all, 

Sorry for all the threads but until you guys stop giving me good advice, I have no choice but to keep posting  . Our puppy is now 11 weeks old and she has been extremely independent as a pup almost from day 1. I hear a lot of people saying that puppies "want to please" but I haven't seen Maya exhibit behavior in any way that would lead me to believe this. At least not yet. Typically when she does something we want her to do, it is because she will receive a treat or because it is the path of least resistance. When we play in the yard, she would much rather find a corner to herself and chew on a stick than interact with my wife and I (with a few exceptions). She seems to lost interest in us very quickly and is first and foremost concerned about pleasing one entity, herself. Has anyone else experienced this kind of behavior? I am worried because I want to make sure that we have a great bond established before the critical window of socialization importance ends. 

Also... is it normal for a pup to choose favorites? As I posted before, our Maya is going through the nipping phase which has gotten much better with me because I am stern with her. My wife tries to be stern but she does not come off as serious as I do. I think Maya notices this and takes full advantage of this "weakness of discipline."


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

First of all, forget the notion that dogs want to please. Whoever thought this up has seen too many Lassie reruns.

Dogs are, like humans, self serving animals. They do what works. They manipulate their environment. And, they are wonderful- because they are dogs!

Your puppy does what works to get what she sees as a favorable outcome. If she wants food, and she knows doing something gets food, then she will do it. 

That is normal, and the fact you have figured it out puts you ahead of many ignorant dog owners! Use it to your advantage!

That said Goldens do usually love to work and train. In many cases it is a self rewarding activity for them as they so dearly love attention, activity, play, and treats. 

Dogs are capable of great love- but they do not have an innate desire to please humans simply because humans are humans and dogs are dogs.

As for the rest it ties right in. If she can enjoy the fun of nipping your wife and the reward (to the puppy- the fun) is greater than the negative, she'll keep doing it. Bear in mind she will outgrow this behavior on her own in time, too.

Dogs often do favor the person with whom they can communicate best and who trains them, walks them, etc. My dogs are all very very attached to me with little interest in my partner or housemate. Totally normal...

Maya sounds like a very bright and motivated pup  Keep at it, and learn what turns her on and use it to your advantage


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

ACC said it very well. Contrary to human thinkings the pup will bond more with the one who give the disipline. Kind of a pack leader type of thing. Female dog will be more independent than males as a rule and once she has a year or so on her she will be hounding you for attention. Like ACC said the puppy nipping will go away in time (and with a little effort on your part) but a golden will always be a mouthy dog. My Oakly is over a year and a half and is still very mouthy but at least now he has a great soft mouth (gentle bite). 

Don't hold back on the questions ...you have found a great group of golden lovers here that want every golden to grow up in a home with happy golden owners.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

It is true... females are definitely more independent!


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## Sheri (Mar 20, 2007)

Daisy is terrble for favorites. She has a fav stuff toy, her piggy. She has a fav bone, her ziggy. She will come to me before she will go to my husband. But she will go to my 4 yr before she goes to me. Daisy has her favorite sleeping spots, under futon, and under my bed (both of those are until she outgrows them). Its funny how at only 8weeks old she has her favs. They suprise us every day !!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Very well said, ACC!

I tell all my students on the first day of beginner class that I'm going to tell the dogs' dirty little secret: They don't exist to please the "master". They exist to please themselves. Their overriding thought 24/7/365 is, "What's in it for me?" The good news is that it's really not all that difficult to teach our dogs that doing stuff WE like is actually really good for them -- b/c it earns them attention, praise, treats, life-rewards, etc.

Females are way more independent than males as a general rule. If I encounter a really independent pup, I'll usually advise hand-feeding for a few weeks -- not just for "free" but incorporate sits, a response to her name, etc. for each piece or few pieces of kibble from your hand.

When you take her out, I'd keep her on a leash so that she can't wander off and disengage so much. Take her fave toys, treats, etc. and show her how much fun you can be. I work my butt off with my pups to show them that I have the ability to be the most exciting thing in ANY environment. I do this with lots of play. I expect my pups to be able to play with me no matter what's going on around them - other dogs, other people, etc. I need that kind of focus and desire to be with ME b/c of all the dog sports that I do -- but building that kind of focus and attention is great with any pup.

Hope that helps... Keep us posted!

-Stephanie


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## KatzNK9 (Feb 27, 2007)

I can't top AquaClaraCanines advice! That's the best version of that explanation that I've ever seen. Too the point & right on the money!

I don't have anything to add other than two thumbs up!


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## IvanD (Mar 25, 2007)

One thing though, my pup seems to be not so attached to me. I mean, even in treats... I was trying to train him to come just now and he would come for the treat 2 or 3 times and then he would just lie down and look away from me even though I'm holding the treat right infront of his face...

And on other occasions, he would completely ignore me and play on his own... is that normal? if so, would it be possible to "improve" our relationship?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

IvanD- better food


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Nicely said ACC... My 2 females are definitely independent.............


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## Nicole&Zack (Feb 27, 2007)

ACC....how do you know all that stuff?? I just love reading all your posts...cause they make sense and you dont make owners guess for what you are trying to say.
Maybe you can help me with mine. I have been dealing with this for a while and it has gotten better but i want it stopped....here we go:
I have 2 kids, 6 year old Kelly and 11 year old Sean.
Zack ( my 16 mo old golden) STILL jumps on the kids...trying to nip them in the leg. I am the one who tells him to get *off*, but when the kids say it, Zack wont listen...especially if we are outside in the yard.
If we sit on the couch (he wont do this with kelly), Zack climbs all over Sean....i dont mind if Zack is on the couch but if he gets wild, we'll get him off.
Any tips? Your help is really appreciated.
Sean does train with Zack (basic commands) and does take him for walks in the afternoon.


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## IvanD (Mar 25, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> IvanD- better food


Do you mean get another type of treats? Or generally meal - food ?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Dogs are my life  Don't ask me about cars or math or cooking or anything else 

One thing about dogs I don't know a lot about is dogs and kids as I have never been around kids at all.

All fun (reward) must stop for the dog if he nips or chases. There has to be either a positive and more rewarding alternative behavior (chasing a ball or toy, perhaps?), or a correction (you could leash him and correct him for it every single time) that renders chasing the kids not worth the consequences. This concept applies to ANY behavior you want to increase or decrease in a dog. The tricky part is figuring out how to apply it sometimes. 

I am guessing the kids run and he gives chase- first thing I'd do in that case is tell the kids the moment he starts to do it, they should stop, stand still, and say "No!" and walk away, ignoring him. Shouting, running, squealing, etc all excite the dog's prey drive and play desire- thus rewarding the behavior over and over and over again for him.

If he stops, they can pet him, play with a toy- something he enjoys that is acceptable.

Here is where I want Stephanie to come and help


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Ivan I mean yummy treats... something so delicious he's frantic for it... for training.

Some hints:

1) SMALL, tiny pieces of something soft and chewable
2) Use limited amounts, as treats can upset a puppy's tummy
3) Vary your treats

Are you clicker training? If so, for now all you should be doing is loading the clicker. Click. Treat. Click. Treat. And so forth.

I brown hamburger meat (eww lol, the things I do for my dogs) with butter and garlic as a training treat for my picky Whippet.

My Goldens will work for kibble... they're greedy monsters. Your pup will probably become more food motivated with age. 

Also, if you leave food down all the time, try picking it up and feeding him three set meals a day, no more than he will finish in ten minutes.


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## IvanD (Mar 25, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Ivan I mean yummy treats... something so delicious he's frantic for it... for training.
> 
> Some hints:
> 
> ...


I'm actually using uhh these dried chicken strips. I don't think he's frantic for it but I'm pretty sure he likes it. What other treats have you tried on your golden?


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## Nicole&Zack (Feb 27, 2007)

Something soft and easy to chew....you dont want your dog taking forever eating treats in traing sessions.
For Zack, cheese works really well.


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## IvanD (Mar 25, 2007)

How well does Zack like cheese?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

My Goldens would sell my soul to the devil for a piece of cardboard that once touched kibble.


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## Nicole&Zack (Feb 27, 2007)

IvanD said:


> How well does Zack like cheese?


He loves it....he drools while waiting for me to unwrap it..;-) But then again..Zack loves food..no matter what.


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## IvanD (Mar 25, 2007)

Hahahah great thanks! What kind of cheese do you use? Those slices of packed cheese? Or cheese cubes?


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## Nicole&Zack (Feb 27, 2007)

I use single wrapped american cheese...thats what we eat too....sometimes i use cheesesticks and just got them up in tiny pieces.


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## IvanD (Mar 25, 2007)

Alrighttt! Awesome. Gotta go shop for treats today


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I highly recommend puppy kindergarten. In this class you will see your dog actually to start to think and try to figure out what you want to do. It has been amazing. Especially if the clicker is used. The way to a Golden's heart is through food. They are very food motivated, but let them earn every treat.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> My Goldens would sell my soul to the devil for a piece of cardboard that once touched kibble.


Ha! Typical raw-fed dogs! Kibble is like Doritos (or any junk food, really) to the raw fed dogs!

Mine are the same way. Cracks me up everytime considering the high-quality, exotic stuff I feed on a daily basis. My dogs eat a heck of a lot better than I do! 

Them: Chicken, beef, lamb, pork, venison, salmon, tripe, cornish game hen, rabbit, etc.

Me: Lean Cuisine out of the paper tray.

-S


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

hahaha so I'm not the only one... ramen noodles


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> All fun (reward) must stop for the dog if he nips or chases. There has to be either a positive and more rewarding alternative behavior (chasing a ball or toy, perhaps?), or a correction (you could leash him and correct him for it every single time) that renders chasing the kids not worth the consequences. This concept applies to ANY behavior you want to increase or decrease in a dog. The tricky part is figuring out how to apply it sometimes.
> 
> Here is where I want Stephanie to come and help


You rang?  

Great advice given so far and yes, often the hard part is determining what is actually rewarding to the dog. Somtimes what we think would be an aversive (like yelling, or shoving the dog off, etc.) is actually the reward b/c it equals attention. To most dogs, negative attention is better than being ignored.

If it were me, I'd recommend not having the dog/kids together w/o an adult directly supervising the actions of the dogs and making every effort to actively set the dog up to succeed. For example, when it's time to chill on the couch as a family, an adult has the dog on a leash and is working a relaxed down-stay on the floor in front of the couch. (Give the dog something interesting to do - like work food out of a Kong, chew a Nylabone or Bully Stick, etc.) 

For adolescent dogs, I often teach the concept of a relaxed down stay with the use of a tether. It can by your leash or a cable tether that he can't chew through. Plop a dog bed down, give the dog a bone and ask him to lie down on his bed to have a chew. Clip on the tether and attach the other end to a heavy object that he can't pull down if he gets up. Make the tether short enough that his roaming radius is really small. We basically want him to have room to be on the bed, stand up, turn around but that's about it. We don't want to give him room to roam around and look for trouble. Since he can't do much else, the dog learns that often, the most interesting thing is to lie down and entertain himself by chewing a bone, which is a wonderful indoor behavior.

I am of the opinion that dogs learn best when we do a lot of work at the front end to set them up to practice doing what we want so we can reward them for it. Sure, I use consequences and aversives, etc. but not before I've really made sure I've taken the time to *teach* the behavior I want.

I would also make sure you teach this dog to be crazy for toys. That way, if the dog starts to get excited, your kids can cue a "sit" by luring the dog with a toy (they hold it up over the dog's head... even the smallest kid can manage this) and then reward the dog by tossing the toy. Definitely teach the kids not to run away and scream. I use "stand still/be a tree" and tell them to ignore the dog. That's where you still need the adult supervision, though b/c some dogs will keep trying to elicit attention via jumping (the extinction burst - still trying a behavior that USED to work) and to be fair to the kids, the adult may need to step in and gather the dog.

I also use lots of "quiet time" when an adolescent dog starts to get too over the top. For many dogs, play that keeps going and going turns them into the canine equilivalent of a tired, cranky human child who really needs a nap! Don't be afraid to use "down time" in the crate, x-pen, baby-gated in the kitchen, etc. to help the dog learn to relax and also for when you can't directly supervise the interactions between dog/kids.

Hope that helps!

-Stephanie


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Oh - another concept I try and get my studetns to really understand and adhere to:

Don't tell me what you want your dog NOT to do. Tell me what you want your dog TO DO instead and work to train that.

For example, instead of saying, "I don't want my dog to jump all over the kids when we sit on the couch," try picturing what you want the dog to do instead. If the answer is lie quietly between you and the kids while everyone is on the couch, then come up with a way to make it nearly error-proof for the dog to practice doing THAT. (Like he chews a bone on the couch while an adult holds the leash - to prevent sudden zoomies - and offers quiet praise, petting, massage, etc. while he's being calm. 

Most behaviors that we don't want are much easier to fix when we focus on teaching the dog exactly what we DO want him to do instead.

-S


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Oh -- and regarding treats... Just a few examples of what I use:

Natural Balance Dog Food Roll
String Cheese (or any cheese cut into small cubes)
Hot Dog
Lunch Meat
Cooked Liver
Cooked Bacon
Ham
Spam (EW!)
Charlie Bears
Tuna Brownies (Do a Google search to find a recipe)
Boiled chicken hearts or gizzards
Great Bait
Hot dogs with garlic powder
Vienna Sausages (mushy and gross, but many dogs LOVE them)
Cooked meatballs (I get them in semi-bulk from Smart and Final. They come frozen.)
KONG Tots (great for when clicker training and you want a lot of a small, consistently-sized treat)

My dogs will work for basically anything... This is just an example of the different treats I work with when working client dogs who can sometimes be a bit picky.

One of the ways I encourage my dogs to eventually work for anything is to develop a broad palate in a pup. I feed my pups little bites of EVERYTHING I can get my hands on (that's safe for dogs, obviously) so that they develop a wide range of taste. Dogs that only eat kibble and train for Milk Bones, etc. are more likely to be pickly later and not like what's "different".

I LOVE using play and toys as a strong secondary reinforcer, too, because it's food that never runs out!

-Stephanie


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## IvanD (Mar 25, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Oh -- and regarding treats... Just a few examples of what I use:
> 
> Natural Balance Dog Food Roll
> String Cheese (or any cheese cut into small cubes)
> ...


 
Superb reccommendations... I would get them... if I actually could. None of them distrubutes their products overseas... I live in Hong Kong so basiclally everything you guys use and talk about. I have practically no way of getting my hands on them... Getting sad...


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Hmmm... I bet you can get regular grocery store foods, though... like difference cheeses and luncheon meats. I spent 6 weeks in Beijing, China several years ago and they had lots of different imported foods that were quite similar to what I was familir with at home.

Meats and cheese work really well.

-Stephanie


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

BTW, Ivan - that link I used for the KONG TOTS is to a personal friend of mine. I bet she'd ship you a few packages so long as it wasn't against any postal regulations. Her name is Mindy Fenton at K9 Raw Diet - Woof!. She sells lots of WONDERFUL freeze dried treats of every meat and organ under the sun.

-Stephanie


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