# Is this a good Pedigree?



## Millie'sMom

There are many people with more experience on GRF, but the only thing I see is stud dogs CERF exam is from 2008. They should be done yearly, and it may have been done, and not submitted to OFA. Just ask the breeder if she has it. Is the stud dog still alive or is that why she had semen shipped?

To the experience breeders on here, the dam's clearances from OFA contain the suffix, NOPI, I thought that meant that the dog was not permanently identified. Is that an issue?


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## Roushbabe

Millie'sMom said:


> There are many people with more experience on GRF, but the only thing I see is stud dogs CERF exam is from 2008. They should be done yearly, and it may have been done, and not submitted to OFA. Just ask the breeder if she has it. Is the stud dog still alive or is that why she had semen shipped?
> 
> To the experience breeders on here, the dam's clearances from OFA contain the suffix, NOPI, I thought that meant that the dog was not permanently identified. Is that an issue?


The stud is from Mexico and he's still alive. The breeder told me she saw the dog at a show last year and met him before she asked to use him for breeding. I'm not sure what you mean by the dog not being permanently identified. Can you elaborate more? Curious to see what the experienced breeders on here have to say about that.


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## LJack

Shipping seamen is a fairly common practice when the boy you want to use is not local. I would guess by looking at his titles, this boy may be in South America though I would ask to verify. If he is now in South America, that could explain why he does not have a current eye clearance. No matter what boy is used, I would ask what the goal was for this litter? Why did she choose this particular boy?
I would suggest going for the visit and having a good conversation with breeder.


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## Millie'sMom

The stud dog is in Mexico. I asked if he was still alive, because if he was not, that would explain the out of date eye clearance. I do not know if there is a CERF equivalent eye exam available in Mexico. Again, please ask the breeder, because it could be done and not submitted. I am in Canada and we can get CERF exams done and submitted to OFA. 

No permanent identification means that the dog is not microchipped or tattooed. Please ask the breeder about this. Hopefully one of the breeders on the forum can explain if that is an issue or not.


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## Swampcollie

Is it a good pedigree? 

Well that depends. What do you want in a dog? What are your priorities? It appears to be another linebreeding on Kirby. 

I wouldn't touch this breeding with a ten foot pole, but then my focus and priorities are likely very different from yours.


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## Kmullen

Krista is the breeder and is using Bola for this breeding. Bola has been used for a few litters recently in Florida. I would make sure you look at health and longevity in the lines. Also, temperment.


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## Roushbabe

LJack said:


> Shipping seamen is a fairly common practice when the boy you want to use is not local. I would guess by looking at his titles, this boy may be in South America though I would ask to verify. If he is now in South America, that could explain why he does not have a current eye clearance. No matter what boy is used, I would ask what the goal was for this litter? Why did she choose this particular boy?
> I would suggest going for the visit and having a good conversation with breeder.


I'm glad to hear it's a common practice. Very good points about asking why she choose this boy for her litter. Thank you for your input! 



Millie'sMom said:


> The stud dog is in Mexico. I asked if he was still alive, because if he was not, that would explain the out of date eye clearance. I do not know if there is a CERF equivalent eye exam available in Mexico. Again, please ask the breeder, because it could be done and not submitted. I am in Canada and we can get CERF exams done and submitted to OFA.
> 
> No permanent identification means that the dog is not microchipped or tattooed. Please ask the breeder about this. Hopefully one of the breeders on the forum can explain if that is an issue or not.


It does say on K9data that she is microchipped but maybe it was done after testing? Hopefully a breeder on the forum can clear up this NOPI issue when it comes to clearances and what I should be aware of or not. 



Swampcollie said:


> Is it a good pedigree?
> 
> Well that depends. What do you want in a dog? What are your priorities? It appears to be another linebreeding on Kirby.
> 
> I wouldn't touch this breeding with a ten foot pole, but then my focus and priorities are likely very different from yours.


What I want in a dog is a male that is very handsome, has a 'blocky?' head with a great stance when standing. That when he walks with me, he prances with great confidence and will make all my neighbors look in 'aw'. A great family dog as well and gets along with everyone. Would love for him to also do 5ks with me as well as going to the beach too. Affectionate as well as protective when needed. Just a handsome all around guy that doesn't have to compete at anything - just be himself!

What do you mean about the linebreeding on Kirby. I looked up the pedigrees on both dogs and didn't see the name 'kirby' anywhere. Can you elaborate more on that and why you wouldn't touch this breed? Just curious on what your focus is on so I can see where you are coming from!


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## LJack

Kirby is the call name of Rush Hill's Haagen-Dazs a very well know and much used stud dog. He appears behind a lot of dogs active in the show ring and can be back there in the grand parent generation on several times. I believe Swampcollie was referring to this as line breeding because he is behind the dam once in the 4th gen and twice behind the sire 2nd and 4th gen.


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## Roushbabe

LJack said:


> Kirby is the call name of Rush Hill's Haagen-Dazs a very well know and much used stud dog. He appears behind a lot of dogs active in the show ring and can be back there in the grand parent generation on several times. I believe Swampcollie was referring to this as line breeding because he is behind the dam once in the 4th gen and twice behind the sire 2nd and 4th gen.


 
I'm not sure what the difference is between inbreeding and linebreeding. Is there even a difference?


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## Joanne & Asia

Roushbabe said:


> I'm not sure what the difference is between inbreeding and linebreeding. Is there even a difference?


I am curious about this too. Our Asia has Rush Hills Haagen-dazs and Kinsha in her pedigree as well.


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## Roushbabe

BUMP for advice from breeders on here please!!


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## Brave

I'm not a breeder, and I'm pretty new to this world. BUT I :google:'ed linebreeding and found this

*"**Breeders of purebred livestock have introduced a term, linebreeding, to cover the milder forms of inbreeding. Exactly what the difference is between linebreeding and inbreeding tends to be defined differently for each species and often for each breed within the species. On this definition, inbreeding at its most restrictive applies to what would be considered unquestioned incest in human beings - parent to offspring or a mating between full siblings. Uncle-niece, aunt-nephew, half sibling matings, and first cousin matings are called inbreeding by some people and linebreeding by others."*


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## cubbysan

I would question the breeder on the clearances of the maternal parents, grand parents. etc. According to k9data, not much info on them.


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## Kmullen

Did you get my email? If you want more detail, just let know.


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## K9-Design

You will probably get what you want in terms of looks in this litter. The dam's sire is a well known show dog in FL and certainly has the "stance" you are describing  Fab show dog.
I do not know the temperaments of the dogs at all; however Swampcollie is primarily a field trainer and I would agree this is not a breeding you would expect great hunting/performance dogs to come out of.
NOPI (No permanent identification) just means the dog wasn't tattooed or microchipped at the time of the clearance. It's a non-issue.


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## Roushbabe

Went and met the breeder today at her home. She is extremely sweet and took as much time as I needed to answer all my questions. She had me take off my shoes and wash my hands before I could even go in the room. 

Background on her is that this is her second litter, first with Miley and she has had a lot of help from Candi Pearce (Geminigoldenretrievers.com) as far as picking out Bola. She has a great setup in the house and you could see the dedication when watching her with the puppies within the first 10 minutes. The runt of the litter kept getting pushed off Miley and she kept moving other puppies out of the way just so the runt could get some food. She also bottle feeds the puppies to help Miley out because 11 puppies is a lot for her. 

History on Bola was that he was bred to Candi Pearce Gemini's dogs before Miley and she got a great litter out of it and that's why she recommended the dog. When I asked why she bred them she told me that both Bola and Miley has great temperament but she's hoping to get rid of Miley's big ears and gain better disposition and keep the great temperament she has. Miley is used as a therapy dog around the area which is great. 

When I asked her about Bola's eye clearances, she showed me paperwork that was updated this year but it just hasn't been updated in K9data. 

I also asked about the grandparents of Miley and how there isn't much on k9data. She told me about True (Miley's dad) and he has great lines but the Miley's mother was more of a field dog/pet and didn't really have any 'titles'. That's why it gets a little fuzzy on that side. Should I be concerned about this? 

I also mentioned about the NOPI after the clearances and she told me she had Miley micro-chipped after she did the clearances. I'm not sure if she understood the importance of the NOPI/VPI/PI after the clearances and I'm not sure how big of a deal it actually is. 

I told her I would think about all of this and let her know tomorrow if I want the last male. What do you guys think?


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## Vhuynh2

Are you comfortable with the lack of clearances throughout the pedigree (correct me if they all have them)? I personally would not be.. Half of the Mom's side seem to be BYB dogs.. If she is asking for a price comparable to one of a well bred pup, I would definitely pass. 


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## Roushbabe

Vhuynh2 said:


> Are you comfortable with the lack of clearances throughout the pedigree (correct me if they all have them)? I personally would not be.. Half of the Mom's side seem to be BYB dogs.. If she is asking for a price comparable to one of a well bred pup, I would definitely pass.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


 
I'm not entirely sure how big of a deal it is that the clearances lack around the 4th generation on the mom's side. My first golden was bought from a newspaper ad back in 1995 and we didn't even look up clearances - she lived to be 17. I'm not saying that clearances are not important but I feel like it's a possibility that they didn't even check them back then because it was just their pet? I'm really new at this so I don't mean to sound naive. Is the only reason why they get clearances is so they are able to breed them? I see a lot of dam/sire combos with a lot of their offspring or siblings missing on OFFA - why is that?


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## Sally's Mom

I believe you could go way past five generations on my dogs and there would be clearances... I spoke to a breeder once who did not recommend doubling up on Kirby(Rushill's Haagen Daz, however you spell it... ). You can PM me for the anecdote/ gossip I have heard...


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## Sally's Mom

The dam's side of the family is sketchy on k9 data....


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## Millie'sMom

K9-Design said:


> NOPI (No permanent identification) just means the dog wasn't tattooed or microchipped at the time of the clearance. It's a non-issue.


If the dog had no permanent when the clearances are done, how do you know the clearances belong to a specific dog? There are a lot of goldens out there with similar colouring and birthdates etc. 

In Canada, our dogs are required to be permanently identified before they can be registered and before they leave the breeders home.


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## TheZ's

The less than glowing comments above about Kirby, [BIS BISS Am/Can CH Rush Hill's Haagen-Dazs CDX JH AX OAJ WCX VCX OS SDHF; Can. CD, WC (5/17/1989-5/28/2000)] caused me to look to see what I could find out about him other than what's on k9data and Rush Hill's website. I knew Kirby was a popular sire and appears 3 generations back behind my Zoe.

Undeniablegoldens.com has assembled some statistical information on him using k9data. They note 2,341 of his descendants with major AKC titles; 23,003 Goldens related to him; and *42%* of CH Goldens born after he was first bred descended from him. It seems this info was as of December 2010.

I knew he was a significant Golden but that is amazing. Is the criticism of him related to him being overused or is there something more?


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## Slowtea

This is my first response to a thread (I'm a newbie!) but my future puppy has kirby in the pedigree as well. I'm a bit nervous seeing so many negatives (and other times such praise) for Kirby.


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## TheZ's

Hoping some knowledgeable breeders can comment on Kirby.


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## Selli-Belle

Kirby is in many if not most (as the statistics above suggest) pedigrees that are show pedigrees. He also had a son Casey Rush-Hills Best Case Scenario, who was a very popular sire.

My Selli is a Kirby descendant (but only once), she is a wonderful girl and I know very nice dogs who have Kirby on both sides.


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## K9-Design

Kirby suffers from the same problem all the super sires of the breed have...he gets blamed for everything 
42% of post-Kirby CH goldens with him in their pedigree -- what an amazing stat!

Edit: *** with my signature pic??? LOL


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## Megora

Anney, I thought you were making a statement. 

ETA - while counting the # of times that Kirby appears in Bertie's pedigree, I realized something bizarre... unless I didn't look deep enough, this will be our first golden since Charmy who doesn't have Wild Blue Yonder behind him.


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## K9-Design

Fisher does have Ace & Tristan but no James or Kirby.
"temporarily unavailable" LOL


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## TheZ's

Megora said:


> . . . - while counting the # of times that Kirby appears in Bertie's pedigree, I realized something bizarre... unless I didn't look deep enough, this will be our first golden since Charmy who doesn't have Wild Blue Yonder behind him.


Just learning about these things and Wild Blue Yonder didn't mean anything to me. So I consulted k9data and concluded you must mean Am./Can. CH. Asterling's Wild Blue Yonder OS SDHF (6/6/1988-3/6/1998). Looking at the offspring there were litters as recent as 2010!! and scrolling down what seemed like an endless list noticed there were a numbers of dams where he was used multiple times. One Faera girl had 3 litters by him in 3 successive years. Do the breeders ever decide it's just too much of a good thing? 

Seeing how recently there were litters, made me wonder how long the frozen stuff can be used. Until there's none left or is there a "shelf life'?


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## AmbikaGR

As for Kirby. When a dog is used as many times as he was with as many varying pedigrees you will likely experience just about every thing - good and bad - you can imagine in the offspring. And like it or not the sire will take the blame when it is bad and the dam for all the good. Just the way it is. 
As for using frozen semen. I know of litters from goods that were over 20 years old so there is really not much of a shelf life (or should I say lack of) to speak of, as long as the goods are handled properly. 
And lastly as for Kirby's son Casey he was *Goodtimes* Best Case Scenario.


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