# Bad exp with SoCal breeder, could use some help finding one



## aznkorboi (Sep 14, 2014)

Hi there. Victory just had a litter of two. Not sure when they will plan on breeding again. Music and 5 star I believe had 5 or 6 on their ultrasound however their wait list is already super long so the chances of getting a puppy are slim!

Calico, according to every breeder is great. She has a very meticulous processes and weeds out candidates based on what she feels is right for the puppy. She even will visit your house. 

Those are my experiences with the ones you listed. Hope that helps!

If I were you, I'd contact all of the people on Dana Runs list and ask them for their next litter because in California, it is usually impossible to get a puppy without not being on a wait list! 

Good luck!


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

We have had 3 goldens from Sunbeam Goldens and they are wonderful. Sunbeam is on DanaRuns list. I don't know if she has any puppies coming up but she usually has a wait list too.


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## Golden Ticket (Jun 25, 2014)

I've read good things about Sunbeam and she's about 20 minutes from us. We're concerned about the "co-ownership" part of working with her...how has that worked out for you?


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

We don't co own with Cathy. The 3 we have had from her we did not show. Here are the K9 data pages for our two now. I have a very close friend who also has 2 Sunbeam goldens and they are beautiful.

Gambler Pedigree: Sunbeam Gimme One More Shot

Gussee Pedigree: Sunbeam's Pods On Favorite


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## Golden Ticket (Jun 25, 2014)

Oh, so only if you show her dogs she co-owns? This is on her website:

_We are your co-owner for life.

Pets are placed on Limited Registration which means that you can register them with AKC and they can participate in all AKC activities except conformation (dog shows). Should they ever be bred, their offspring cannot be registered with AKC. We do this to make certain that we do not have Sunbeam dogs being bred without clearances or that there is no value in reselling our dogs to puppy mills and commercial breeders. Dogs that are placed with potential as show dogs are sold on full registration which means their offspring can be registered.

There is no alternative to this. Again, this is the way we protect ourselves against someone buying a Sunbeam dog and re-selling it or breeding it without clearances. We don't want puppies back or breeding rights. We do this to make sure that dogs are not passed on and that bitches are not bred without clearances._

It also says this:

_You are not actually purchasing the puppy since here is no transfer of ownership as we remain as co-owners. You are paying us a fee for the raising and socialization of the puppy we will co-own._

http://www.sunbeamgoldens.com/getasunbeam.html

This is very straightforward wording, so we took it very literally. The two you posted pages for (very beautiful!) are from shows, yes? And they're Sunbeam dogs, but you said she's not a co-owner. Perhaps this is a new rule for them?


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

Golden Ticket said:


> Oh, so only if you show her dogs she co-owns? This is on her website:
> 
> _We are your co-owner for life.
> 
> ...


If she co-own's ALL purchased puppies, does she have something in her contract allowing Vet's to bill her for her share of responsibility for the dogs medical care throughout life? You are just the caregiver, correct? Would she refuse to work with you if you affirm her responsibility by notation in the "care contract", or do you have to provide 100% medical expense for shared ownership? Full risk with partial reward (companion pet). Not to be too snarky, but this sounds like a rental puppy! Urgggg! Really people???[ I know I would pass!


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## Golden Ticket (Jun 25, 2014)

Okay, so I _am_ interpreting it correctly. LOL - thanks. 

My husband and I were talking about this again today and he said, "So, what if something were to happen to us? What if we die? Is she then the owner of the dog?" I had to laugh at that, because, to thomas&betts' point, where does the responsibility on her part come in? 

On the other hand, I do get what she's trying to do. But a control thing is part of the bizarre experience we had with the breeder we *thought* we were getting a puppy from already. Investing time into a relationship with a quirky breeder is something we don't want to step into again. We'd much rather find someone with a true desire to get to know us and who we are then to go into a relationship already based on a lack of trust. 

From the blurb above: _Dogs that are placed with potential as show dogs are sold on full registration which means their offspring can be registered._ So, if you're purchasing a show quality dog, you get full ownership. I'm assuming that explains why gold4me is not in a co-ownership situation... I'm also assuming that the price goes up for show quality dogs.

Argh.


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

I don't have the exact answer for you as we got Gambler at 1 year and Gussee at 6 years. We have complete ownership of our two and our other female. I will see what I can find out for you.I do know that Cathie is always there for us to answer questions, give advice if needed and if something happened to my husband and me Cathie would take our kids. This was very important to us to know that we would never have to worry about them if we died.
Yes, Gambler and Gussee are both from show backgrounds. Thank you for your compliment.


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## Augie's Mom (Sep 28, 2007)

Augie is a Calico golden and I can't say enough wonderful things about Mary. She cares about all her puppies and is always there to help.


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## Dee263 (Apr 27, 2015)

Golden Ticket (love your name btw, I'm hearing The South Park version of the Willie Wonka song in my head, lol). Full registration and full ownership are two different things. A co-owned dog can have full registration. Registration options govern the potential offspring of the dog, while ownership (unless you agree to something else in a contract) applies to the dog itself. Just guessing, but the breeder you're looking at probably keeps co-ownership of dogs with show and 'breeding' potential, hence the full registration.


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

The co-ownship I believe may have to do with full registration and showing.

We co-owned a golden with another breeder years ago and basically it was so she could breed him and show him. He was our dog other than those two areas and when she no longer wanted to breed or show him she redid the registration papers and we were sole owners.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

As far as ownership goes, you want to figure out what is important to you. If it is complete ownership with full registration and not contractual stipulations, you are not going to find that with a good breeder who is doing the health test, competeing and breeding with lots of care. You will want to start looking in your local papers online adds or kijiji. There are plenty of people who will give you complete control. 

Most reputable breeders are quirky.  Just seems to go with the really cares about thier dogs and the breed. 

As far as Cathy she is an awesome breeder. I have met her several times and have no doubts about her dedication. It is that dedication that is the source of her co-owns. All I can say is if you want to dismiss her from consideration for it, do so. You will find that her Co-owner mechanism is not all that different from the contractual restrictions all the reputable breeders I know use. That is, that the dog returns to the breeder if the owner is unable to keep the dog at anytime. Great breeders always want thier dogs to come back to their first home as opposed to being surrendered to the pound or rescue. So, if that kind of control is uncomfortable to you, the good breeders being recomended are also going to be a turn off for you too.


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

LJack said:


> As far as ownership goes, you want to figure out what is important to you. If it is complete ownership with full registration and not contractual stipulations, you are not going to find that with a good breeder who is doing the health test, competeing and breeding with lots of care. You will want to start looking in your local papers online adds or kijiji. There are plenty of people who will give you complete control.
> 
> Must reputable breeders are quirky.  Just seems to go with the really cares about thier dogs and the breed.
> 
> As far as Cathy she is an awesome breeder. I have met her several times and have no doubts about her dedication. It is that dedication that is the source of her co-owns. All I can say is if you want to dismiss her from consideration for it, do so. You will find that her Co-owner mechanism is not all that different from the contractual restrictions all the reputable breeders I know use. That is, that the dog returns to the breeder if the owner is unable to keep the dog at anytime. Great breeders always want thier dogs to come back to their first home as opposed to being surrendered to the pound or rescue. So, if that kind of control is uncomfortable to you, the good breeders being recomended are also going to be a turn off for you too.



I could not have said this any better. Cathie and her dogs are amazing and being in the Sunbeam family has been a wonderful experience. I know that for the entire life of my Sunbeam goldens Cathie is there for me and this is very important to me as a golden owner.


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

ljack said:


> as far as ownership goes, you want to figure out what is important to you. if it is complete ownership with full registration and not contractual stipulations, you are not going to find that with a good breeder who is doing the health test, competeing and breeding with lots of care.


*NOT TRUE....I DID! X Full registration X FULL Ownership X Full health check X Competing (as if this means much unless Field or Agility Competition) X Breeding with lots of care (much more indoor care than a GRCA breeder with 10 outdoor "breeder dogs" would provide)


To the original poster: You just need to avoid breeders with Control Issues! This may mean avoiding most (but obviously not all)GRCA member breeders! Does GRCA parrot good breeding practices that anybody with common sense would use anyway? Yes, but they also ignore poor breeding practices in their COE, such as inbreeding, because it gets them that "show quality" look. One side benifit to finding an INDEPENDENT NON QUIRKY breeder will no doubt be reduced rates of CANCER due to less frequent inbreeding. It has become so prevalent with those seeking the "SHOW QUALITY LOOK" that some Golden Retrievers are so genetically messed up they can't live much beyond puppyhood without the full "CHOP protocol" cancer treatment! Is this what is meant by quirky?*[/B]


LJACK: "Must reputable breeders are quirky"

TO THE OP: Sorry to get off track, just had to offer my encou*rage*ment with regard to your finding a true quality breeder. They do still exist. They are very careful to avoid the members only crowd.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Golden Ticket said:


> _You are not actually purchasing the puppy since here is no transfer of ownership as we remain as co-owners. *You are paying us a fee for the raising and socialization of the puppy we will co-own.*_


OK - the way this is phrased, I'd have a huge problem with. Because a co-ownership is being twisted into something that it originally was not intended to be. A co-ownership should be strictly when you purchase a dog on full registration and you will be receiving the support of the breeder in some way as far as what you will do with that dog. Sometimes that's how people make connections with future mentors... 

Other definition of co-ownership is when you have several people who will be involved with showing and breeding a dog. 

It seems to be overkill for a breeder to co-own every pet puppy they produce... even though I gather it's a level of protection to keep people from registering dogs in other registries... or something. Who knows. 

I also purchased a puppy with full registration and did not have to sign any contracts or anything. Not saying everyone will or should, but just saying it's not a sign of a bad breeder. I have friends who have been in showing and breeding and have huge names in certain breeds and disciplines (obedience for example) who are only just now getting bizarre contracts handed to them by different breeders, this after 30-40 years of competing and showing dogs. It's something new that people seem to be playing around with, and lot of it just shows how hectic the dog world is getting in some areas where a lot of people are doing whatever they can in an attempt to make money off the puppies they purchase. 

Me personally, I'd rather ensure I keep my name "good" out there so at least with many of the breeders I know personally - I won't have to jump through hoops to get a puppy from them.  

How that factors down to pet people though... I think limited registration and some amount of screening should be all that's necessary. Because most pet owners don't even register their puppies anyway so it's not a huge deal what kind of registration they get. Co-owning every puppy puts the new owners in an uncomfortable position right off as far as how much they trust that breeder not to go all crazy on them and manipulate that ownership arrangement!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Golden Ticket said:


> Hi all,
> 
> After an extremely disappointing and bizarre experience with a Los Angeles breeder recently, my husband and I are anxious about entering into another relationship with a breeder. This breeder, while not on DanaRuns' list (and maybe now I know why), has a history as a board member of GRCGLA Rescue and seems legitimate, but there is something quite off. Our confidence took a hit from the experience, needless to say.
> 
> ...


For the sake of my list and understanding, I'd love to hear who the breeder you had a problem with was, and what the nature of the problem was. PM me if you're willing.

On your list I like (in no particular order) 24KT, Calico, Musicur & Five Star, and Victory. But I don't think any of them are having puppies right now. Judi, Star, Suzanne, Mary and Michelle are all solid people and easy to work with. Plus they are all conscientious about their breeding practices, and do not heavily line breed. (*Full disclosure: I have a dog from Judi Voss at 24KT: "Ziva" CH 24kt Esquire's Double Secret Agent, the girl in the righthand photo in my signature.)

Cathie Turner is "quirky" (I like that word  ), but a good breeder. I wouldn't be concerned about the language on her website. Her puppy buyers are a universally happy lot, and Cathie is way too busy to meddle in puppy buyers' lives.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

thomas&betts said:


> *NOT TRUE....I DID! X Full registration X FULL Ownership X Full health check X Competing (as if this means much unless Field or Agility Competition) X Breeding with lots of care (much more indoor care than a GRCA breeder with 10 outdoor "breeder dogs" would provide)*


I am glad for you, though I don't know why you feel the need to yell and bold the word "rage" in encourage. 

I stand by my statement that I do not know any reputable breeders that sell the way you bought and I also hold a very different oppinion than you do. Where you see control and conspiracy theory, I see concern and dedication. 

Oh, well different strokes for diffence folks.


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

LJack said:


> I am glad for you, though I don't know why you feel the need to yell and bold the word "rage" in encourage.
> 
> I stand by my statement that I do not know any reputable breeders that sell the way you bought and I also hold a very different oppinion than you do. Where you see control and conspiracy theory, I see concern and dedication.
> 
> Oh, well different strokes for diffence folks.


Thank you LJack


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## deadmanh (Jul 2, 2015)

I would recommed Sue W. & Star B. of Musicur5stargoldens. I got my first puppy from them 11 years ago. I tried going back but their current litter had a waitlist out the door. Depending on your timeframe, if I could have waited I would have. 

I don't know it this counts as a quirk. Straight up they would NOT sell me a show puppy. Pet only, this second time around I thought it might be nice to try a hand at confonformation... a tad. They are serious and have been breeding a while. They would only sell me a pet.

In my puppy search I contacted lots of other breeders:

Julia Wolfe of stellar goldens you mementioned. She seems nice and has (what i thought) some great agility dogs. But her requirement is that puppy buyer/ parents MUST feed raw. It is a deal breaker for her if you dont feed raw.

Btw, getting out of southern california you can find that prices often drop from $2000 to $1500. That can be offset by the airplane ride so in terms of price it can be a wash. This just opens up more opportunities.


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## Golden Ticket (Jun 25, 2014)

Thank you everyone for all of your thoughtful responses. Your candor is appreciated. I didn't mean to start a thread and then bail... We lost our senior boy last week tragically and unexpectedly. The boy who never ate anything he shouldn't decided to eat something that sliced up his small intestine. We had a great team of surgeons and pulled all the stops to save him, but the sepsis was so bad he wasn't strong enough to recover from the surgery. Probably needless to say, but we're devastated. We've put our search on hold until our hearts and souls have recovered a bit. 

DanaRuns - I would be happy to share the details of our experience with you. I hope you don't mind if it takes a little bit for me to get back to you. 

For Los Angeles folks, we can't recommend Dr. Terrie Johnson, DVM, who I found on this forum and Animal Specialty Group (Drs. Bilbrey and Nelson were amazing) enough. 

Thanks again, everyone. Hug your babies for us.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Golden Ticket said:


> Thank you everyone for all of your thoughtful responses. Your candor is appreciated. I didn't mean to start a thread and then bail... We lost our senior boy last week tragically and unexpectedly. The boy who never ate anything he shouldn't decided to eat something that sliced up his small intestine. We had a great team of surgeons and pulled all the stops to save him, but the sepsis was so bad he wasn't strong enough to recover from the surgery. Probably needless to say, but we're devastated. We've put our search on hold until our hearts and souls have recovered a bit.
> 
> DanaRuns - I would be happy to share the details of our experience with you. I hope you don't mind if it takes a little bit for me to get back to you.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry about the loss of your boy. How devastating. Take care of yourselves.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

FYI, Calico Goldens (Mary Benson Thompson) have two brand new litters on the ground now.


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