# Giant Goldens?



## sphyrna18 (Aug 31, 2010)

My golden, Saxon, recently passed away at the age of 12. He was an amazing dog, tremendous companion, and valued friend, and I miss him very much. I am hoping to be able to find another golden like Saxon, as he was just incredible. However, I'm having trouble finding any information about goldens like him.

Saxon was what I have heard some call a 'giant golden', and he fit the bill in every way. He stood 33 inches at the withers, and in his prime, was a lean 138 pounds. He was very solidly built. He had the sweetest disposition, but wasn't actually very "golden retriever-like." He could be the most stubborn creature (people pleasing wasn't always on his To Do list, but it was always a bonus for him if what he wanted to do also happened to please those around him haha). He was caring and curious - to the point of being nosy - and very intelligent. Napping was his favorite activity, and he preferred attention to food. He loved toys and playing, but refused to 'fetch' and was devastated if you took his toy and threw it, and instead of retrieving it and bringing it back, he would mope at your feet until you got it and brought it to him. He never did anything standing up that he could do sitting down, and never did anything sitting down he could do laying. People with more knowledge of dog breeds than I have said he had all the best personality traits of a Great Pyrenees combined with all the best of a Golden. That would make sense if he were a hybrid, but I have his papers, and he was 100% golden retriever. Before anyone thinks it was just him: I have information about one of Saxon's brothers from the same litter, and that dog lived to 11 years old and weighed 142 pounds. Saxon's father was a gigantic dog, weighing in at 140 pounds and standing almost 34 inches tall. His mother, too, was a giant and weighed well around 110 pounds.

Saxon and his ilk aren't the only "giant goldens" I've come across. He had a "brother," Charley (who passed away two years ago) from an entirely different kennel, whose giant father was mated with a standard female. Charley weighed in at 135 pound and stood 32 inches tall. However, his personality was 100% golden retriever. Caring, playful, and incredibly intelligent (I've actually never known a dog as intelligent as Charley; his intellect seemed to amaze everyone who met him), he was always with a smile on his face and a wag in his tail. He was everything you could ever ask for out of a golden.

Prior to those two, I had a "giant" named Kodi that weighed 142 pounds and stood almost 32 inches at the withers (hip dysplasia kept him from being as active as he needed to keep his weight lower). He had a white-blonde coat, which made him look a lot like a pyrenees, actually, but again, AKC papers confirmed pedigree. Saxon had a soft, silky, golden-colored coat and Charley had a tightly curled, honey-colored coat.

I truly miss having my big boys around, and I'm desperate to find more giants. While I love the standard sized goldens, these gentle, loving giants totally stole my heart. Does anyone have any information about goldens like these? I used to be able to find information online about giant goldens, but not anymore. It's as though they dropped off the planet (or never existed to begin with). I had heard something a while ago that I couldn't confirm about how there are various lines of goldens that were developed before the breed standard was published, and one of the lines used great pyrenees as outcrosses, and that was how the giant line came about. I have absolutely no idea where that info came from, and I don't claim it's true, but looking at these dogs, and at least Saxon's and Kodi's personalities, I can definitely believe it.

I've attached some pictures of Charley and Saxon so anyone who wants can see my boys. I miss them very much, that's for sure. They were two of the most unique animals, and I was lucky to have had the time I did with them. I'd really like to someday be able to bring two more gentle giants into my life, if only I can find them. Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


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## Golden Leo (Dec 3, 2008)

33 inches?? OMG!!! I've never seen golden that tall!!!
I thought that I saw giant golden when I saw bitch 25 inches tall but now I see she's pup for 33 inches


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

My Max's dad was out of standard and did not have AKC papers. Those are 2 reasons a number of people here feel that his dad shouldn't have been bred. You will not find a reputable breeder who will breed a golden that far out of standard. (EDITTING TO ADD that I considered Max's breeders hobby breeders as they bred goldens and champion horses for a living but did not do all the clearances - best I could do within my means. Also 7 year old dad and 4 year old mom ran like the wind on their farm for a long time so to me, that showed me that mom and dad didn't seem to have any joint issues.)

I am not trying to be a downer but I read the sitting down laying down part of your post and about sleeping a lot. Allso being stubborn could equal not wanting to do certain things because it means getting up and moving which equals pain. Could your golden have had hip or elbow displasia? I would think dogs that would act like that in the weight ranges you suggested could be because the dog's joints could be causing him pain. 

It's great that you loved your giant goldens but I highly suggest this time around, if you have the means - get a golden pup with all the clearances or at the very least, see the parents, how they run, how they move, and learn more about what a dog with ED or HD looks/acts like.


PS. Another downer, sorry - but in your pictures your first golden looks quite overweight - so take maybe 20 or a bit more pounds off what he/she weighed to figure out what at their peak, they should have weighed.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I've attached some pictures of Charley and Saxon so anyone who wants can see my boys. I miss them very much, that's for sure. They were two of the most unique animals, and I was lucky to have had the time I did with them. I'd really like to someday be able to bring two more gentle giants into my life, if only I can find them. Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


I'm sure you can find dogs like that out there, but it's going to be hit or miss as to what other traits and health issues come with that height. Responsible breeders are going to be breeding to the AKC or whatever standard, which is 24" at the withers (for males). 

If a breeder is disregarding the standard as far as height, who knows what else they are disregarding?

ETA - I should say they were both lovely boys. I'm very sorry about your loss - it's something we went through recently as well with our big boy (he was 25 inches at the withers). I wish you all of the luck in your dog search.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I understand loving a big fluffy dog, but you wont find a reputable breeder breeding giant goldens, simply becuase regardless of what the market may demand, it is not in the dogs best interest. Good breeders are always trying to do what is right - not only to the breed standard, but to the health of the dogs.
Rather then supporting a puppy mill or a irresponsible back yard breeder - with your dollars. Can I suggest Big Fluffy Dog Rescue | Southern Dog Rescue | Helping Unwanted Dogs | Dog Adoption Information | Foster Big Dogs | Big Fluffy Dog Rescue | Nashville, TN and Beyond 
They are a rescue that specialists in - yep....Big Fluffy Dogs.
That way you will be able to get what you are looking for, a needy dog would get a great home and the greedy breeders that pump out big puppies without thinking about the long term health consequences would not get reinforced with your dollars.

Dont misunderstand me or anyone else on the board, we are very very happy that your dogs were loved and look forward to hearing stories of their life.


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

'I am so very sorry for your loss...I know how heartbreaking it is to lose our pups. I hope that you find the dog you want. Have you contacted the breeder? Good luck in your search!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

sphyrna18 said:


> My golden, Saxon, recently passed away at the age of 12. He was an amazing dog, tremendous companion, and valued friend, and I miss him very much. I am hoping to be able to find another golden like Saxon, as he was just incredible. However, I'm having trouble finding any information about goldens like him.
> 
> Saxon was what I have heard some call a 'giant golden', and he fit the bill in every way. He stood 33 inches at the withers, and in his prime, was a lean 138 pounds. He was very solidly built. He had the sweetest disposition, but wasn't actually very "golden retriever-like." He could be the most stubborn creature (people pleasing wasn't always on his To Do list, but it was always a bonus for him if what he wanted to do also happened to please those around him haha). He was caring and curious - to the point of being nosy - and very intelligent. Napping was his favorite activity, and he preferred attention to food. He loved toys and playing, but refused to 'fetch' and was devastated if you took his toy and threw it, and instead of retrieving it and bringing it back, he would mope at your feet until you got it and brought it to him. He never did anything standing up that he could do sitting down, and never did anything sitting down he could do laying. People with more knowledge of dog breeds than I have said he had all the best personality traits of a Great Pyrenees combined with all the best of a Golden. That would make sense if he were a hybrid, but I have his papers, and he was 100% golden retriever. Before anyone thinks it was just him: I have information about one of Saxon's brothers from the same litter, and that dog lived to 11 years old and weighed 142 pounds. Saxon's father was a gigantic dog, weighing in at 140 pounds and standing almost 34 inches tall. His mother, too, was a giant and weighed well around 110 pounds.
> 
> ...


 
I am sorry for the loss of your pet. 

As has been stated by others, no reputable breeder will deliberately produce dogs so far out of standard. Additionally, many of the personality traits that you describe your dogs as having, and as being what you are looking for, are not correct for Goldens. You may want to consider another breed that would meet those attributes without compromising the integrity of the Golden Retriever's health/structure/temperament.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I am so sorry for the loss of your beloved boys. Good luck in your search. I also recommend Big Fluffy Dog rescue.


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## animallover (Jul 18, 2010)

Good luck on your search. I'm sure someone on here will be able to help you. So sorry for your loss. You really sound ready for a new Golden!!!


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## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

I'm also sorry for your loss. 

What you are describing maybe sounds like a golden Hovawart. Before Coley and after our bridge baby Duke, we strongly considered a Hovawart. They are large, beautiful dogs. Do a google. There are gold ones that truly look like a big golden but their temperment is a little different than a golden and they are very protective of their family.

When I read your title, I thought that the picture I would see was of a gold Hovawart.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

That's not a Golden. That's a Base Station


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

I was going to mention this but could not remember the name!

It all fits. Right down to the difference in temperament.



Duke's Momma said:


> I'm also sorry for your loss.
> 
> What you are describing maybe sounds like a golden Hovawart. Before Coley and after our bridge baby Duke, we strongly considered a Hovawart. They are large, beautiful dogs. Do a google. There are gold ones that truly look like a big golden but their temperment is a little different than a golden and they are very protective of their family.
> 
> When I read your title, I thought that the picture I would see was of a gold Hovawart.


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## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

I am so sorry for your loss, it must be so hard for you.

What I am going to say might sound tough, it is not my intention to hurt your feelings.

As others have already stated, the description does not fit the Golden Retriever standard, not only in conformation(too tall) , but also temperament-wise. I am sure you will not find a reputable breeder who breeds such Goldens. A reputable breeder has standard(which also addresses temperament) and health in mind when breeding.


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

I am so sorry for you loss.

I have a big boy but he is no where near where your's were. I worry about GR's deliberately bred out of standard. There are so many health issues with in standard dogs from good responsibly breeders (who are working hard to improve these issues); I don't support breeding for large, small or designer GR crosses. I hope you find the dogs that will help you heal but not necessarily a "giant" Golden.


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Good luck in finding a great dog to share you life with.

Aside - I was amazed at how much a golden Hovawart looks like a golden.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't know about hovawarts (I swear that sounds like something from Harry Potter), but another type of dog you could look into might be Leonbergers. I don't know how common they are, how long they live, or how affordable they might be... but I remember there was a lady at my dog classes with my previous golden (we're talking close to 15 years ago) who turned to the Leonberger breed after she lost her golden. 

The breed... my first impression was that the Leonberger is what you would get if you crossed a golden retriever with a st. bernard. They are large gentle dogs - or at least those I've come in contact with. <- Not as large as 33 inches! But at least in the neighborhood at 28-31 inches.


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

A hovawart is very active and yes they are taller & heavier than the golden but 33in for 130+,would be completly out of standard.Lazy and sleeping,a lot is not part of their vocabulary and they are quite different to the golden,in character!.Don't Forget that they are used as Schutzhund dogs and are used as police dog!.This is not a breed,for everyone.Looking at the pictures,they don't look like Hovas cos too red.
As for a giant golden,I think it's a mistake!.The bigger they are,the more health problems,you're going to get.
If you like the golden,get one that is in the standard and if you want a giant one,go for a Leonberger(they are great dogs but do die,quite young(in bet 8 & 10) cos of their size) or a Saint Bernard.


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

I usually only post positive things....I dont know alot about breeding...but i have to say that I feel very badly for the OP. Her precious dog died...a dog that she loved/loves just like we love ours and she is looking for help to find another to try to fill the hole in her heart. I think it is heartless to post how her dog was overweight, was not to breed standards and that her breeder was a bad person, how she shouuld not look for another similar dog to the sweet dog she had. She loved/loves that dog and she wants to be happy again. I think we all need to take a step back and think about this woman. Put yourself in her place...would you want people saying all these things when you came here for help???? I was always taught if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all.
I know that you all have strong feelings about breeders and breeding to better the breed..but this is a hurting human being looking for help, she didnt come here to be lectured.
OP I am sorry, this is a great forum, but sometimes people lose site of the fact that we are people with emotions and we have reasons for writing here.
I hope you find the perfect pup.
Please come back because this is a wonderful site and very helpful. Sometimes the people are hard on others, but dont let that scare you away.
Good luck in your search.


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## Bell (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm very sorry for you loss,but i dot think you can find a golden with such extreme size.33 inches...Goodness,that's a male Great Dane's hight......I do not want by any means to be rude,but are you sure your boy was this tall?Sounds impossible,but who knows...You may want to consider another breed-Bernese mountain dogs are great,and they are bigger than golden retrievers generally.(23–27.5 in (58–70 cm) and weight is 65–120 lb (29–54 kg).But looking at the standart they don't even reach 30 inches..But they're big fluffy dogs-the kind you want.Hovawarts don't get so big either....(Males: 24 to 28 inches ,Females: 22 to 26 inches).
Saint Bernard or a Newfoundland should be great for you!!They reach close to this size.
So if you want a dog,the size you say your boy was,there are not much breeds to choose from-just the giants.Have in mind the health issues the others mentioned.
Anyway,you may just want to decide your sweet boy was unique,and you can't find a dog just like him,but there should be another dog for you-maybe even a regular sized golden-for you your new dog will be unique ass well.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I was trying to be nice in answering the OP's question... she was wondering where she could find giant goldens like she had. The answer is she most likely can, but she has other and better options. 

There was no meanness meant to the original poster. Again, I lost a beloved golden last year so I understand what she might be feeling right now. It is a very good thing that she's open and ready to bring another puppy into her life to begin again.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I really doubt they were that tall....33 inches? That is like a great dane. The only photo where you can compare height is the one with the dog standing next to the patio table and he looks about as tall as my Fisher, who easily can rest his chin on a normal table. Fisher is 23 1/2" at the withers. 
The photo of the dog laying on his side with his back to the camera.....clearly a good bit overweight. 
I groomed two goldens years ago that were way oversized, they each weighed about 120 lbs and while overweight were not incredibly obese, just way huge goldens. They were orthopedic nightmares and did not have the freedom of movement you expect in a sporting dog. By 8-9 years old BOTH had pressure abscesses on both hips. 
I really can't condone anyone who would purposefully breed a golden this size so as for advice on where to find one, I have no idea. There are many very nice giant breeds out there you may be interested in...Bernese mountain dog, Great Pyrenees, Leonberger, Newfoundland...or just seek a reputable golden breeder and appreciate a well bred golden puppy for their fine attributes and don't try to recreate your previous dogs.


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## T Man (Mar 18, 2010)

golden&hovawart said:


> A hovawart is very active and yes they are taller & heavier than the golden but 33in for 130+,would be completly out of standard.Lazy and sleeping,a lot is not part of their vocabulary and they are quite different to the golden,in character!.Don't Forget that they are used as Schutzhund dogs and are used as police dog!.This is not a breed,for everyone.Looking at the pictures,they don't look like Hovas cos too red.
> As for a giant golden,I think it's a mistake!.The bigger they are,the more health problems,you're going to get.
> If you like the golden,get one that is in the standard and if you want a giant one,go for a Leonberger(they are great dogs but do die,quite young(in bet 8 & 10) cos of their size) or a Saint Bernard.


Wow, those Hovawarts really do look like GR's:


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

T Man said:


> Wow, those Hovawarts really do look like GR's:


Yes,they do but they are very different,in Ccharacter!.Much more GSD,like!.
My 1st one was a blond and I use to describe her as:a Golden with an attitude problem!.
Also,they can be gender aggressive.
Here she is:


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

amy22 said:


> I usually only post positive things....I dont know alot about breeding...but i have to say that I feel very badly for the OP. Her precious dog died...a dog that she loved/loves just like we love ours and she is looking for help to find another to try to fill the hole in her heart. I think it is heartless to post how her dog was overweight, was not to breed standards and that her breeder was a bad person, how she shouuld not look for another similar dog to the sweet dog she had. She loved/loves that dog and she wants to be happy again. I think we all need to take a step back and think about this woman. Put yourself in her place...would you want people saying all these things when you came here for help???? I was always taught if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all.
> I know that you all have strong feelings about breeders and breeding to better the breed..but this is a hurting human being looking for help, she didnt come here to be lectured.
> OP I am sorry, this is a great forum, but sometimes people lose site of the fact that we are people with emotions and we have reasons for writing here.
> I hope you find the perfect pup.
> ...


I do understand where you are coming from, but I think most of the posters have been rather friendly. 

I think that everyone is just trying to help the OP see that being big does not necessarily mean better. Nobody is tearing her to shreds or telling her not to have what she had before, but are offering sound advice to help her find what she is looking for. No one wants to see someone suffer because their dog has health issues from being oversized. 

To the original poster: I am so sorry for your loss. I hope that you find a companion to fill your heart as your last dog did. Best of luck.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

I am so sorry for your loss.....


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> I really doubt they were that tall....33 inches? That is like a great dane. The only photo where you can compare height is the one with the dog standing next to the patio table and he looks about as tall as my Fisher, who easily can rest his chin on a normal table. Fisher is 23 1/2" at the withers.


This makes me wonder--OP from where are you measuring your dog? To the top of the shoulders or to the head?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> I don't know about hovawarts (I swear that sounds like something from Harry Potter), but another type of dog you could look into might be Leonbergers. I don't know how common they are, how long they live, or how affordable they might be... but I remember there was a lady at my dog classes with my previous golden (we're talking close to 15 years ago) who turned to the Leonberger breed after she lost her golden.
> 
> The breed... my first impression was that the Leonberger is what you would get if you crossed a golden retriever with a st. bernard. They are large gentle dogs - or at least those I've come in contact with. <- Not as large as 33 inches! But at least in the neighborhood at 28-31 inches.


 
Leonbergers can be quite dog aggressive, as well as very protective with people other than their own.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

amy22 said:


> I usually only post positive things....I dont know alot about breeding...but i have to say that I feel very badly for the OP. Her precious dog died...a dog that she loved/loves just like we love ours and she is looking for help to find another to try to fill the hole in her heart. I think it is heartless to post how her dog was overweight, was not to breed standards and that her breeder was a bad person, how she shouuld not look for another similar dog to the sweet dog she had. She loved/loves that dog and she wants to be happy again. I think we all need to take a step back and think about this woman. Put yourself in her place...would you want people saying all these things when you came here for help???? I was always taught if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all.
> I know that you all have strong feelings about breeders and breeding to better the breed..but this is a hurting human being looking for help, she didnt come here to be lectured.
> OP I am sorry, this is a great forum, but sometimes people lose site of the fact that we are people with emotions and we have reasons for writing here.
> I hope you find the perfect pup.
> ...


 
I believe that everyone has express their sympathy for the OP's loss. And are also addressing the OP's questions - as asked here: _"I truly miss having my big boys around, and I'm desperate to find more giants. While I love the standard sized goldens, these gentle, loving giants totally stole my heart. Does anyone have any information about goldens like these? I used to be able to find information online about giant goldens, but not anymore. It's as though they dropped off the planet (or never existed to begin with). I had heard something a while ago that I couldn't confirm about how there are various lines of goldens that were developed before the breed standard was published, and one of the lines used great pyrenees as outcrosses, and that was how the giant line came about. I have absolutely no idea where that info came from, and I don't claim it's true, but looking at these dogs, and at least Saxon's and Kodi's personalities, I can definitely believe it."_

This is, first and foremost, a Golden Retriever Forum, and it is important to address exactly these types of issues that jeopardize/compromise the health, temperament, and overall integrity of the breed. Educating the public is the least that those of us who profess to love the breed can do.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> Leonbergers can be quite dog aggressive, as well as very protective with people other than their own.


If poorly bred? 

The one I knew ages ago was very much like a St. Bernard in behavior. He was not exactly as loopy and all over the world like a golden retriever, but he was friendly and laidback. And she was showing him in conformation as well as obedience. 

I guess I know that St. Bernards can be protective and aggressive, but they aren't supposed to be per the breed standard. Same as the Leonbergers -



> The gentle character and even temperament of the Leonberger is of utmost importance for fulfilling their role as a family companion. The Leonberger is self–assured and calm, with a steady, playful demeanor. He is willing to please and possesses a good capacity for learning. The Leonberger exhibits a marked friendliness towards children and is at ease in all situations, never showing fear, shyness or aggression.
> 
> Quarrelsomeness or hostility towards people or dogs in normal situations, or an unwarranted show of timidity or nervousness, is not in keeping with Leonberger character and shall be penalized to the extent that it is effectively eliminated from competition.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> If poorly bred?
> 
> The one I knew ages ago was very much like a St. Bernard in behavior. He was not exactly as loopy and all over the world like a golden retriever, but he was friendly and laidback. And she was showing him in conformation as well as obedience.
> 
> I guess I know that St. Bernards can be protective and aggressive, but they aren't supposed to be per the breed standard. Same as the Leonbergers -


I've only known "well bred" ones and frankly didn't trust any of them. None fit the above description of temperament. I find the Leo standard to be one that needs to be read between the lines - a dog that "never shows fear" or "timiditiy" can often be (for lack of a better description) overly confident, pushy, and dominant. Reading this blurb from the Leo Club of America has lots of room for reading between the lines (like reading real estate ads - "cute and cozy" means too small to turn around , "ready to decorate to your taste" means needs remodeling...)

Breed Info:

Leonbergers are a *large breed*, meaning they grow up fast and are big! Yes, they can become a friend, companion, and an ideal family dog, but only after a lot of socialization with people on and off their property and only after formal obedience training, using positive reinforcement. It takes consistent work and participation from all family members. No dog is born with good behavior - you must teach that to your Leo. 
Leos are *high-energy dogs *with amazing intelligence. They do well in obedience, agility, as therapy dogs, in water rescue work, and in many other outdoor activities, but it takes lots of patience, training and work. All of this adds up to TIME!
Leos do not adapt to being an outside dog. They *must be integrated within your family*. They are demanding of your time and most of them like to have the companionship of other animals. A Leo alone in a yard is not a happy dog and dogs that are consistently unhappy often become bored, destructive, or ill. Make sure to provide for the body and mind of your Leo. 
Leos enjoy being part of a "herd" of Leos! They are attracted to each other, but will accept other breeds. They accept cats, horses, farm animals and kids! Most Leos instinctively like children, but not all children instinctively like dogs. Never leave your Leo puppy or adult alone with strange children. Remember, an adult Leo is at eye level with a 5 or 6 year old child. 
A Leo is *extremely sensitive *to your moods and your family's interactions. Family squabbles can make a Leo very unhappy, so be sure to avoid loud angry arguments in the presence of your Leo. Leos love to go with you on errands, trips and outings. You will need a vehicle large enough to accommodate your giant Leo. Taking your Leo along is part of proper socialization and socialization must continue throughout the dog's life. 
As puppies, Leos can be *very destructive *if left to invent their own games. Be sure to provide lots of interactive toys like Wiggly balls, hide-a-treat balls, Kong toys, and frizbees. Whatever you purchase, use common sense to avoid choking hazards like toys that are too small or that break apart. Toys are great, but do not replace your companionship. Leos are inherently playful and need lots of playtime throughout their lives. If you combine play breaks with training, your Leo will be much happier learning what makes you happy. 
Older Leos also enjoy play periods, proving that old does not mean inactive. Walks, exercise and play periods also keep your Leo?s weight under control while tuning up the immune system.
Dogs dig. Leos are dogs. *Leos dig*. Provide an out-of-the-way area for digging and you'll both be happier. Something under a bush away from the traffic areas because Leos can excavate a fairly large bunker. Leos are mud puppies throughout their lives. They love water and see nothing wrong with rolling in dirt. Lakes, rivers, and oceans make Leos very happy! They are a drip-dry breed, but as they dry, the mud covers your house. That's life with a Leo. If you're very meticulous about your carpet and furniture, a Leo may not be your ideal dog.
Leos, like most dogs, need some help and reassurance when they enter adolescence. They may demonstrate shyness or fearfulness. You can overcome this and help your Leo develop into a self-confident dog by reassurance, and exposure to new things. Bikes, skateboards, traffic, all of these things can startle and frighten which is why you are there with your Leo to help it overcome any shy behavior. Shyness can lead to very negative behavior.
The average Leo can *easily surf your kitchen counters *taking whatever it wants including your dinner. Remember, if your Leo reaches 30 inches at the shoulder, its big head is at least 6 inches higher. Dogs have a one thousand times greater sense of smell than humans ? Leos can smell any food left on your kitchen counter! Leos, being a large dog, can *cover your house with a lot more fur *than a small dog. Keep that in mind when deciding on a Leo. Their fur can jam your vacuum cleaner, many times over!
Leos should *grow slowly*. Large breeds should be allowed to grow at their own genetic pace and not overfed to promote growth. Leos weigh upwards of 100 pounds, and like most dogs, they like to eat the wrong thing. A fat Leo is not a healthy dog. Keep track of those ribs ? when you can no longer see them or feel them, your Leo needs a diet.
Most Leos are *sensitive to some drugs*, usually tranquilizers, anesthetics and sulfa-based drugs. Whenever possible, avoid overuse of these drugs. This should be discussed with your veterinarian when you bring your puppy in for a health exam.
Enjoy your Leo, but never forget it's a dog. It will never speak English - you must learn to communicate in ways it can understand, so *train...TRAIN....TRAIN!*


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

never mind.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

amy22 - I know you alwayts post even tempered things so no biggie there. 

This is how I see it - I didn't say sorry for your loss- which I am so sorry for not saying that. 

As for overweight - I mentioned that because if she wants a dog that will be that big, she needs to understand how much her dog should have weighed so she has a better idea what the parents "should" be and it's not whatever her dog weighed in that picture. I wasn't trying to upset the poster but to make the poster realize the true weight she wanted her new doggy to be.

As for the second bit re: out of standard - I think it's a true possibility and for as overweight and oversized her goldens are that the goldens may have suffered from joint issues and that's something she probably never thought about. What seems to be a cute mannerism could have been pointing to a problem that she never thought to think about. Now that I brought that up, if she gets another "giant golden" then she may take the new dog to vet and get it checked out so this new doggy doesn't have to live in possible pain. Hey, maybe the other dog was fine joint wise - there isn't enough information on the first post but it could be a possibility based on the OP.

I wasn't trying to be mean but to inform the OP and have the OP think about why it may not be the best thing to deliberately try to get a 130 pound golden. Sure, she's sad now so why borrow extra sadness by getting a new puppy from a must be irreputable breeder with no health clearances and huge risk to this new puppies joints and overall health. I understand the OP may not like what I have to say but I'm trying to help and sometimes the things that help us in the end are not the things we would like to hear.

I AM EDITTING TO ADD that my Will Will is over weight as she is older and it's hard to keep the weight off of her. I'm not saying overweight equals neglect - it just is what it is - especially in older dogs. So please know I don't mean any offense.


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## sphyrna18 (Aug 31, 2010)

Let me begin by thanking you all for your condolences. Saxon passed away in my arms at 6 AM on Friday Aug. 27th at the age of 12. Seeing as how today is only Aug. 31, I truly appreciate your warm wishes. I am really missing my dog.

Also, the information on the Hovawart is invaluable, so thank you Dukes Momma for introducing me to that breed, and to everyone who further shared information about them and other, similar breeds. The Hovawart sure does LOOK like Saxon, and after briefly reading a description, it sounds like in the right home, a Hovawart could have a good personality. I will definitely be researching them and other similar breeds further.

It will be tough to find another breed that totally encompasses the personality these "giant goldens" have. Both Charley and Saxon were extremely friendly, social and personable dogs, as would be expected of GRs. Saxon was independent and could be strong willed, but was ultimately pliable (with patience and a little work and occasional bribes). Both were very well behaved from a very young age. I think I may have made Saxon sound as though he were sometimes surly, but that couldn't be further from reality. Usually, he was happy just to be alive, but he liked to do things his way (somewhat compulsive, yes) and found it necessary to make statements. For example, he would go on hunger strikes and pine badly if separated from the family too long, and would “punish” me in particular for being away by refusing to eat anything I gave him, but eagerly accepting the exact same food from anyone else. Once he was confident his message had gotten through he was fine again. If I or any other member of the family yelled at him, though, he would vomit. Beneath his stubborn demeanor, he was a total pussycat. 

I am well aware of breed standard for GRs. I do not need educated on this. And while I completely understand current breed standard, as well as the need for keeping it pure, my interest is not in dogs that meet breed standard, since their history and origins are well documented. I was curious about where these extremely large dogs came from, since their personalities, conformation, and physique are totally different from breed standard goldens, despite having AKC registrations. I’ve been told they are the result of selective breeding for specific personality traits as well as size, and that prior to the official publication of the breed standard, there were the GR breed went in a lot of different directions. I can’t verify that, though…

For the doubters, I am 100% sure Saxon stood 33 inches at the withers (obviously taller at the top of his head). Sorry that some are finding it so hard to believe. I measured him as did his regular vet and a specialist who was testing him for Cushing’s (tested twice, both came back negative). Without a doubt, he was 33 inches at the shoulder. I know that none of the pictures gives a good impression of his height. I wasn’t taking the pictures for that purpose, nor was I posting them for that purpose. I just thought people might want to see what the dogs I was going on about looked like.

In the pictures I posted, both my dogs were about 20 pounds overweight. Saxon was 155 pounds in those photos and Charley was 148. Unfortunately, I didn't own a digital camera when the dogs were in their prime. The weight gain was unfortunate: Saxon tore the ligaments in his knees in a really tragic accident, and while he was laid up he was spoiled rotten by not only myself, but by my entire family. I even had a grandfather who, unbeknownst to anyone else, would give both Charley and Saxon a brownie for each brownie he ate. The man ate a lot of brownies. Suffice to say that the fact they were only each about 20 pounds overweight was a blessing. And after the accident Saxon was never able to be a physically active as he once had been and eventually developed slight arthritis in his knees. So yes, they were both overweight, for which you can blame me if you like. They were my buds, and I spoiled them. I'm sorry that I didn't specify that prior to posting my pictures. If I could, I'd love to post pics from when they were younger, but I don't have digital pics from that time period, and I can't convert the pics I do have right now. Suffice to say, they were lean once.

Both dogs had AKC registered parents, and both had OFA and CERF papers and came from AKC registered litters.

Both dogs suffered from hypothyroidism, which was treated and maintained. Both Charley and Saxon were free from hip dysplasia, and aside from Saxon’s slight arthritis in his knees (from his accident and subsequent surgery to repair them; the arthritis was treated as needed and monitored very, very closely to so that he experienced as little pain as possible), both were free from other hip and joint problems. Both were healthy dogs. It was suspected that Saxon suffered from Cushing’s or Addison's, but we had him tested (twice) and found he was not. Also of note: Saxon's teeth were in perfect condition up until the day he passed away. Barely any tarter or plaque, never even a hint of bad breath; his teeth impressed every vet who had the privilege of checking them. So, while there seems to be a lot of talking about how “reckless,” “irresponsible,” breeders contaminate the breed with unhealthy dogs such as mine, I ask that you get your facts in order before lobbing accusations about the quality of life such dogs could possibly have. Saxon and Charley were free from debilitating genetic disorders, and were overall healthy, happy dogs, which for Golden Retrievers can be asking a lot (health-wise).

Because Saxon had never been alone in his life, and my entirely family was concerned about him surviving Charley's passing, Saxon began going to work with me. I am an administrator at a mental health practice, so at the age of 10, he began his big adventure as a therapy dog! This is something I am hoping to continue in the future with my dogs, but it means I have to be very selective about my dogs. And yes, I'm aware of "standard" GRs being used in therapy; however, our patient population really responded favorably to Saxon. Sax was a really big dog, and though many patients were at first intimidated, his personality and overall zen helped numerous people who feared big dogs overcome that fear as well as provided a level of security for all our patients when they felt vulnerable. Not only did they tell us so, but their actions reflected it. As our psychologist says, everyone likes to be liked by a really big dog. Saxon made “running with the big dogs” a reality. We have had many dog aficionados, and GR-enthusiasts alike as patients. They all fell in love with Saxon. Any future dog I own must have the same laidback, unwavering demeanor and be free from overall hyperactivity. Standard Goldens bore easily, and can become restless, so they tend to do best in high energy situations. Saxon bored easily, too, but he was content to sleep until something more interesting happened. Even though Kodi and Charley were not used in therapy, they shared that “willingness” to nap until something exciting came along. Then they would wake, acknowledge, sometimes even engage, bore, and finally back to sleep. But with one eye open, of course, so as to not miss anything.

I am sorry if I caused confusion about what I was asking. I had been told that for a while, the GR breed had been going in several directions as to what would be breed standard, and that the "gentle giants" were just one of those directions. While I've always been unsure of the accuracy of this information, and to say I've been skeptical would be an understatement, I was interested in any information anyone might have regarding how such dogs came to be. Finding a breeder is the least of my concerns at present - I'm still missing Saxon too much to be unbiased with a new dog - but I was interested in historical information about these giants. A number of years ago, I used to see other "goldens" around that were about the same size as Saxon (not to mention that we had one, Kodi, for 10 years before Saxon and Charley came along to fill the void left by his passing), but I haven't seen any for a long time. It may be that I never find a dog like Saxon again. Personally, I feel it is a shame that dogs such as Saxon would be maligned or viewed as aberrant because they don't fit into "breed standard." Saxon and Charley were healthy, happy, beloved members of our family, and they touched the lives of many. This week has been particularly difficult so far for our patients, who embraced Saxon as their own, relied on him for comfort, and are now mourning his loss. He was a tremendous dog and a magnificent representative of all that a dog could be. Not only was he an ambassador for Goldens, but for dogs in general, and he helped a lot of people overcome “big-dog” anxieties and allowed people to see how beneficial a dog can be to one’s own physical and mental health – some so much that they went out and adopted dogs themselves from local shelters. If that corrupts the breed standard, that's a genuine shame. Saxon was perhaps a breed all his own then, and I, for one, would take him over any other breed out there, as he set the bar pretty high.

Thank you all again for your sympathies and for the information regarding Hovawarts and other goldenesque breeds. The information will prove quite valuable in the future when I’ve finished mourning Saxon and can bring a new dog into my life without comparing him to ones who’ve gone before.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Thank you for your second post which explains a little better the information you were looking for.
The golden retriever standard as we know it today has been in existence since I believe 1934 when goldens were given AKC recognition and the founding fathers of the Golden Retriever Club of America created the standard which closely followed the UK standard, original standard of the breed's origin. The GRCA standard was amended slightly in the 1980s to clarify some verbiage but nothing was changed. 
The AKC does NOT allow cross-breeding and certainly would never accept or register a dog who had been cross bred with another breed, even several generations back. There is an interesting project within the Dalmatian breed -- that exactly this was done many years ago. One English pointer was bred to a Dalmatian, and subsequent generations were bred back to pure Dals. The resulting strain is a creature that looks and acts exactly as any other Dalmatian but does not carry the gene for uric acid production which creates bladder stones -- a huge problem within the Dalmatian breed. Even though there is a large contingency within the Dalmatian Club of America that wants and has petitioned AKC to accept this "LUA" (low uric acid) Dals back into the AKC stud books, AKC and the DCA still have not approved it. SOOOOO --- while that is a long story that doesn't have anything to do with goldens -- it goes to show that any deliberate crossing of a golden with a Great Pyrenees or any other breed, would NEVER be allowed by AKC, especially not in the name of looks. The Dalmatian project was in the name of breed health, a much more noble cause! 
Now not to say breeders could not toss in a Pyr or other giant breed and create a strain of oversized goldens --- but they would NEVER be AKC registered.
This is the first time I've ever heard someone suggest that "Giant goldens" are a breed fad or line or whatever, much like we talk about "show" lines or "field" lines. There may be individuals breeding grossly oversized goldens but it certainly isn't well known or established within the breed. If that was your original question then I think the answer is "No" and the fact that you happened to find them is a fluke. 
I still am really disbelieving about a 33" tall golden. I've got a yardstick right here and imagining a golden that size is absolutely astounding. Really would like to see a picture of a dog up against something like a kitchen counter or car where you could compare it's height. The photo of the dog laying on the couch, it looks like a normal sized golden to me.
Anyways -- best of luck in your search -- personally I think you'd strike gold with a Newfoundland -- they are really spectacular and I'd have one in a heartbeat if I weren't so sold on my goldens


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Sphyrna18*

SPHYRNA18

Again, I am so very sorry about Saxon's passing and Charley, too.
I am sure they are at the Rainbow Bridge playing with all of our dogs.
I hope you visit here often as there is so much SUPPORT on this forum.


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

Pointgold:
The breed info posted on the leonberger is accurate!.
Having owned 3 males Leos,I can promise you that they are not aggressive but if you are not part of the family,they are distant.
They are excellent watchdogs but if socialized and trained,propally,they are amazing dogs.
To this day,the Leo is,still,my heart breed,followed by the Hova and the retrievers(Flat & Goldens)!.
As some of you know,I will be getting,another Hova,end of Nov and I'm very excited!.
To the OP,I'm so sorry for yr loss but remember that the Hova is very different from the 
Golden and not a breed,for every-one!.
They are strong-minded dogs and will take over,if the owner is not strong enough!.If you need,any help if learning,more about the breed,please ask.
Here is a 7mths blond,female Hova ,working:


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

Im sorry for my morning post....guess I was a bit cranky and overly sensitive...I just felt sorry for the OP..I know (we all know) how hard it is to lose a beloved pet....thanks for not tearing me to shreds!
OP I do hope you find what you are looking for.


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## sphyrna18 (Aug 31, 2010)

Thank you for the detailed information re: AKC. The Dalmation breed info actually clarifies a few questions I had about how Saxon's pedigree could be AKC-registered, but have any crossbreeding involved. Obviously, the Pyrenees idea is totally off base. So where does the similar personality come from? Perhaps hovawart?

Is it possible for a dog to be mis-registered with AKC? For example, after reading the breed descriptions provided for blonde hovawarts, and seeing numerous pictures, I am wondering if the "giant golden line" may have been an inadvertant mating of a true Golden with a blonde hovawart? I mean, as far as I know, Saxon was a Golden Retriever, as both his parents were AKC-registered GRs, but would it be possible for a careless breeder somewhere along the way to incorrectly register a hovawart as a GR? Much of Saxon's physical appearance (especially when he was younger) and most of his personality seem like a hovawart, except that he was not hyperactive. Could it be that hovawart got mixed in somewhere? Or maybe hovawarts are being sold as "giant" goldens by uninformed kennels?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

With our Sammy... we always joked about a spaniel or hound dog getting mixed in with his breeding. He was only 23" at the shoulders and had a silky (golden coats should not be silky, because they are supposed to be field dogs) golden-red coat and big round almost black eyes.  He had full registration, so in theory we could have turned around and bred him to a golden with similar faults in hopes getting puppies with those same exact faults. 

With your goldens (I think they did look more like goldens than pyrs and hovawarts), it's likely that they had a lot of tall goldens in their lines. And you fed them miracle grow. Or it could be there was an accidental breeding with a giant breed in their backgrounds.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm so very sorry for the loss of your beloved companions. 

I found out recently that many years ago there was someone in TX breeding "Texas" sized Golden deliberately. They occasionally pop up in the population now, but they are no longer being bred over sized on purpose by that individual. 

I hope you find the friend you are looking for, nothing can sooth a hurting heart like a Golden of whatever size. Often the dog you need finds you, I hope that's true for you.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Is is possible that there was a gene mutation that caused them to be so big, as sometimes happens with people?


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## sphyrna18 (Aug 31, 2010)

All I know is that both dogs come from what was described at the time as "giant" goldens. Charley's pedigree appears to have "giants" sprinkled in, judging from the size information I have. He is listed as having a "giant" sire mated with a "standard" dam. Saxon, on the other hand, appears to come from a strong lineage of very large dogs. Apparently his father was 35 inches. I never saw his father, so I cannot say for sure. But I have met with owners of some of Saxon's littermates, and all of the dogs from that litter were at least as big as Saxon - and his one brother appeared to be even bigger. I would be entirely possible that these are just really big goldens; I don't know of any reason why an abnormally large golden couldn't be bred with another large golden, and so on and so forth to get truly giant dogs. Perhaps the mellow yet strong-willed disposition (cool and calm, yet passive-aggressive and stubborn) is an artifact of size? Their personalities are not very similar to standard goldens. They are tremendously sweet, but can be obnoxiously bullheaded, and will challenge their "master" at some point as they near adulthood. It only seems to be one time if the situation is handled properly, at least mine only challenged me one time, but from what I've heard, if they think they have the upperhand, they will continue to challenge and disregard their owner's "requests." If they get too bullheaded, the threat of picking them up usually pulls them into line since they hate being picked up. Luckily, once full grown, if they've been picked up enough when they were bad as puppies, they don't wait to see if you can still hoist them into the air, and they do what's been asked. Such clowns.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Sphyrna*

Sphyrna

When you are ready, don't forget to look at the Golden Rescues in PA
and also Big Fluffy Dogs.


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## jimla (Oct 9, 2008)

I am sorry for the loss of your gentle giants. Elliot is a 27 inch tall golden we adopted at 9 months old from the local humane society. He was listed as a purebred without registration. I have often wondered about his sire and dam. We keep him under 85 lbs. and he has no joint problems. He is now 5 years old and has a wonderful mellow golden personality.

You might find a big golden by searching through petfinder. I think a Newfoundland would be an excellent choice for a therapy dog. The ones I have met have had great personalities.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Just going to say one more thing and then bow out of this thread.

I am one of the people who mentioned that a golden out of that standard is much more likely to have bone/joint issues and that is true. Also, as littler dogs live longer lives, having such way out of standard dogs can also affect a dogs lifetime in a negative manner. 

My Max has to be around 90 pounds - he's a big boy. Not sure how to measure him but he is BIG for a golden. His dad was big too - maybe a bit under 100. I like big dogs too so I was very okay with that. I now realize that because of his size and his growth rate, that can cause issues with bone growth/joints/etc. I also have learned that the 65 golden boy someone else has likely will live longer than my beautiful boy. Seeing the value in following breed standards doesn't mean that I think that somehow dogs that are out of breed standard are second class citizens or that I'm looking down at your "giant" goldens. I think someone who would breed goldens or any breed so very much bigger than their structure intended are not doing their dogs a favor. I worry about the added health complications and the shortened life span just as I do for my boy. 

I hope you find peace and comfort in time. Good luck to you.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

sphyrna18 said:


> All I know is that both dogs come from what was described at the time as "giant" goldens. Charley's pedigree appears to have "giants" sprinkled in, judging from the size information I have. He is listed as having a "giant" sire mated with a "standard" dam. Saxon, on the other hand, appears to come from a strong lineage of very large dogs. Apparently his father was 35 inches. I never saw his father, so I cannot say for sure. But I have met with owners of some of Saxon's littermates, and all of the dogs from that litter were at least as big as Saxon - and his one brother appeared to be even bigger. I would be entirely possible that these are just really big goldens; I don't know of any reason why an abnormally large golden couldn't be bred with another large golden, and so on and so forth to get truly giant dogs. Perhaps the mellow yet strong-willed disposition (cool and calm, yet passive-aggressive and stubborn) is an artifact of size? Their personalities are not very similar to standard goldens. They are tremendously sweet, but can be obnoxiously bullheaded, and will challenge their "master" at some point as they near adulthood. It only seems to be one time if the situation is handled properly, at least mine only challenged me one time, but from what I've heard, if they think they have the upperhand, they will continue to challenge and disregard their owner's "requests." If they get too bullheaded, the threat of picking them up usually pulls them into line since they hate being picked up. Luckily, once full grown, if they've been picked up enough when they were bad as puppies, they don't wait to see if you can still hoist them into the air, and they do what's been asked. Such clowns.


Hmmmm...well, um, okay  This is all very much like a Disney movie 
The personality you describe is typical for any golden not bred with a good working temperament in mind, and would have nothing to do with size. Low biddability. Not desirable in a working retriever. 
All of this "giant" vs. "standard" is something someone came up with to market puppies and really aren't terms anyone involved with the breed would use. I still have absolutely no confidence that there has ever been a purebred golden retriever 35" tall at the shoulder.
Nowadays we have DNA testing to prove pedigrees in AKC's studbooks. This was not always the case. It was the honor system and if someone was unscrupulous or just plain ignorant it would be possible to breed a mixed breed litter and list the sire as a different, registered dog, and register the litter. It's happened and I'm sure it's happened in what we consider our purebred pedigrees somewhere back there. However there was no movement or documented, well known or understood incidence of this happening with breeding ANY giant breed with a golden and registering them as goldens to get a "giant" line. There is no "giant" line of goldens. 
The possibility of a howavart in the whole equation is slim to none. The breed is extremely rare in the US. 
Yes it is common for pet goldens to be bigger than is listed in the breed standard, mainly because people can't seem to keep their emotional attachments out of the pet's dinner bowl. The dogs aren't any bigger, they are just fatter.


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## Bell (Jan 23, 2010)

sphyrna18,please excuse me,if i sounded as if i didn't believe you.It was a ''no way''type of reaction,to something as unique as your case. I just suggested that you may have made a mistake in the measurements.As you said-you didn't,and a vet checked too.Don't feel offended,that some people found it hard to believe,because this is the height of a male Great Dane,as some of us said.Maybe with your boys it was due to hormonal reasons.I also think it's possible that Saxon and your other boys had some giant breed(s)in their genes.If i were you,i would consider getting one of the ''big fluffy dog'' breeds we all suggested,after you get over your loss.


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## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

If you want one from Canada, my guys are giant. Place where I got them have litters every year. Father is a standard purebred, Mother has a little yellow lab way back but golden(not pure) From a farm. Father has biggest head on Golden I ever seen.


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## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

heres a pic before fixed


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I am shocked at how much , a hovawart looks like a golden!!!


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

All this talk of 33 inches at the shoulder got me curious so I pulled out the tape measure and finally measured Darby. He is 25 inches tall at the withers, my dining room table it 30". WOW - they were REALLY big dogs. 

I don't think I have ever seen a Golden that size. I love my big boy but I don't think I could handle a bigger guy especially when he gets excited and starts to pulled on the lead. Thankfully he is very even tempered, easy going and laid-back. 

I understand your pain, there are days that I miss my Sunshine so much. I watch these two running and playing and think how much she would've enjoyed their company. I talk to her almost everyday. My heart goes out to you and I hope when you are ready that you find the dogs to fill that spot in your heart.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

AKC doesn't recognize giant or standard sizes in Goldens like they do with standard/miniature/toy poodles, so size references wouldn't be listed there. Im curious to know what database exists where a dogs size information is included? There are some pedigrees I would like to look up.




sphyrna18 said:


> All I know is that both dogs come from what was described at the time as "giant" goldens. Charley's pedigree appears to have "giants" sprinkled in, judging from the size information I have. *He is listed as having a "giant" sire mated with a "standard" dam*. Saxon, on the other hand, appears to come from a strong lineage of very large dogs. Apparently his father was 35 inches. I never saw his father, so I cannot say for sure. But I have met with owners of some of Saxon's littermates, and all of the dogs from that litter were at least as big as Saxon - and his one brother appeared to be even bigger. I would be entirely possible that these are just really big goldens; I don't know of any reason why an abnormally large golden couldn't be bred with another large golden, and so on and so forth to get truly giant dogs. Perhaps the mellow yet strong-willed disposition (cool and calm, yet passive-aggressive and stubborn) is an artifact of size? Their personalities are not very similar to standard goldens. They are tremendously sweet, but can be obnoxiously bullheaded, and will challenge their "master" at some point as they near adulthood. It only seems to be one time if the situation is handled properly, at least mine only challenged me one time, but from what I've heard, if they think they have the upperhand, they will continue to challenge and disregard their owner's "requests." If they get too bullheaded, the threat of picking them up usually pulls them into line since they hate being picked up. Luckily, once full grown, if they've been picked up enough when they were bad as puppies, they don't wait to see if you can still hoist them into the air, and they do what's been asked. Such clowns.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

sphyrna18 said:


> Let me begin by thanking you all for your condolences. Saxon passed away in my arms at 6 AM on Friday Aug. 27th at the age of 12. Seeing as how today is only Aug. 31, I truly appreciate your warm wishes. I am really missing my dog.


I am very sorry for your loss. Most of us here know what you are going through.



> It will be tough to find another breed that totally encompasses the personality these "giant goldens" have. Both Charley and Saxon were extremely friendly, social and personable dogs, as would be expected of GRs. Saxon was independent and could be strong willed, but was ultimately pliable (with patience and a little work and occasional bribes). Both were very well behaved from a very young age. I think I may have made Saxon sound as though he were sometimes surly, but that couldn't be further from reality. Usually, he was happy just to be alive, but he liked to do things his way (somewhat compulsive, yes) and found it necessary to make statements. For example, he would go on hunger strikes and pine badly if separated from the family too long, and would “punish” me in particular for being away by refusing to eat anything I gave him, but eagerly accepting the exact same food from anyone else. Once he was confident his message had gotten through he was fine again. If I or any other member of the family yelled at him, though, he would vomit. Beneath his stubborn demeanor, he was a total pussycat.
> 
> I am well aware of breed standard for GRs. I do not need educated on this. And while I completely understand current breed standard, as well as the need for keeping it pure, my interest is not in dogs that meet breed standard, since their history and origins are well documented. I was curious about where these extremely large dogs came from, since their personalities, conformation, and physique are totally different from breed standard goldens, despite having AKC registrations. I’ve been told they are the result of selective breeding for specific personality traits as well as size, and that prior to the official publication of the breed standard, there were the GR breed went in a lot of different directions. I can’t verify that, though…


Before the breed standard was created in both the US and the UK, Goldens were in fact far more similar to each other than they are now. For one thing, there were just a small fraction of the number of dogs we know now and they all came from the same small gene pool. For another thing, the purpose of a golden as a medium sized hunting dog was paramount to breeding. There were not factions that had Goldens just as pets or for showing in the breed ring or for performance sports. If you had a Golden, you had it as a hunting dog and it had to be able to perform as a hunting dog. Therefore it had to be a medium sized dog (so it could fit in a boat) and it had to have a lot of energy to be able to hunt all day. In addition, the dog had to be tough to crash through ice and briars, but extremely trainable and human focused. I believe in those days, the big disputes were having a dog who looked too much like a hound or a dog who looked too much like a hound. No one was breeding for giant, low energy, aloof dogs. And it is very unlikely that they would have added a herding/guardian outcross since it would not add anything to the Golden's hunting ability.





> Both dogs had AKC registered parents, and both had OFA and CERF papers and came from AKC registered litters.
> 
> Both dogs suffered from hypothyroidism, which was treated and maintained. Both Charley and Saxon were free from hip dysplasia, and aside from Saxon’s slight arthritis in his knees (from his accident and subsequent surgery to repair them; the arthritis was treated as needed and monitored very, very closely to so that he experienced as little pain as possible), both were free from other hip and joint problems. Both were healthy dogs. It was suspected that Saxon suffered from Cushing’s or Addison's, but we had him tested (twice) and found he was not. Also of note: Saxon's teeth were in perfect condition up until the day he passed away. Barely any tarter or plaque, never even a hint of bad breath; his teeth impressed every vet who had the privilege of checking them. So, while there seems to be a lot of talking about how “reckless,” “irresponsible,” breeders contaminate the breed with unhealthy dogs such as mine, I ask that you get your facts in order before lobbing accusations about the quality of life such dogs could possibly have. Saxon and Charley were free from debilitating genetic disorders, and were overall healthy, happy dogs, which for Golden Retrievers can be asking a lot (health-wise).


Hypothyroidism is a debilitating disease and is probably highly heritable.




> Any future dog I own must have the same laidback, unwavering demeanor and be free from overall hyperactivity. Standard Goldens bore easily, and can become restless, so they tend to do best in high energy situations. Saxon bored easily, too, but he was content to sleep until something more interesting happened. Even though Kodi and Charley were not used in therapy, they shared that “willingness” to nap until something exciting came along. Then they would wake, acknowledge, sometimes even engage, bore, and finally back to sleep. But with one eye open, of course, so as to not miss anything.


Well bred Goldens are not hyperactive and they do not get bored easily. Those stereotypes come from people who have not been exposed to well bred Goldens. Once again, because a Golden, to be a gentleman's hunting dog, would have to either sit in a hunting blind or a boat for hours, not making any noise but still being alert so when the hunter shot a bird, the dog could mark where the bird fell to retrieve it. After retrieving the bird, the dog would return to the blind or boat, soaking wet and often cold and sit quietly until the hunter shot another dog. Clearly a hyperactive dog who was easily bored would not work.




> I am sorry if I caused confusion about what I was asking. I had been told that for a while, the GR breed had been going in several directions as to what would be breed standard, and that the "gentle giants" were just one of those directions. While I've always been unsure of the accuracy of this information, and to say I've been skeptical would be an understatement, I was interested in any information anyone might have regarding how such dogs came to be. Finding a breeder is the least of my concerns at present - I'm still missing Saxon too much to be unbiased with a new dog - but I was interested in historical information about these giants. A number of years ago, I used to see other "goldens" around that were about the same size as Saxon (not to mention that we had one, Kodi, for 10 years before Saxon and Charley came along to fill the void left by his passing), but I haven't seen any for a long time. It may be that I never find a dog like Saxon again. Personally, I feel it is a shame that dogs such as Saxon would be maligned or viewed as aberrant because they don't fit into "breed standard." Saxon and Charley were healthy, happy, beloved members of our family, and they touched the lives of many. This week has been particularly difficult so far for our patients, who embraced Saxon as their own, relied on him for comfort, and are now mourning his loss. He was a tremendous dog and a magnificent representative of all that a dog could be. Not only was he an ambassador for Goldens, but for dogs in general, and he helped a lot of people overcome “big-dog” anxieties and allowed people to see how beneficial a dog can be to one’s own physical and mental health – some so much that they went out and adopted dogs themselves from local shelters. If that corrupts the breed standard, that's a genuine shame. Saxon was perhaps a breed all his own then, and I, for one, would take him over any other breed out there, as he set the bar pretty high.


My Dexy was oversized at 26." He had the best temperament and passed several therapy dog tests. However, most therapy environments were too warm for him and we never did therapy dog visits. I have know plenty of dogs who are within the standard, including many who have breed championships, who have perfect temperaments for therapy work and do therapy work. If you want the laid back temperament find a great breeder who breeds for great temperaments, give the pup enough exercise and you will have the Golden temperament you want. If you want a larger dog, look into a Newfoundland, a breed that is closely related to the Golden and truly has the temperament and size it sounds like you are looking for.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Again, and I mean this sincerely, I am sorry for the loss of your pet.

I am beyond disturbed to think that someone has marketed a "line of giants" or some such thing. There is a breed standard for a reason. To deliberately deviate to such an extreme _is _irresponsible, and many of the issues that you detail are health issues that very likely were at least in part due to the disregard for the standard.

I am going to add that you have a sadly skewed idea of what "breed standard" Goldens are like.


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## sphyrna18 (Aug 31, 2010)

Again, I want to thank everyone for their warm wishes. It's been a hard week. I want to thank everyone for their input and insights, and especially for the breed recommendations. I'm not sure what direction I will go in, because even while I mourn the loss of my constant companion, I have to have a plan for the future implementation of dogs in this particular mental health practice. It is not helped by the constant requests by patients, patients' families, and staff that I find another Saxon. Personally, I don't believe that any dog could replace Saxon... or Charley, or Kodi. I love Golden Retrievers, and my family didn't set out to get dogs that would become so large. Saxon was the only one that my family got with the knowledge that his lineage contained what were supposedly enormous goldens. He was the last of his litter, and way too cute to pass up. And I'm glad we didn't.

I would be lying to say I don't love big dogs. I'm sorry, but a 24" dog barely comes to my knee. And I'm afraid if I'm not watching, I'll wind up kneeing it them in the head. I've done it before, and it made me feel horrible. I would love to have a Newfie or a Pyrenees or Hovowart - I've tried to get Newfies and Pyr's for the business in the past. But I love goldens, too. Probably more. The way they look, and how expressive and interactive they are. I was unfair in my description of Saxon, and when I was later talking about him with my family, they reminded me of just how playful and energetic he had been. He became mostly sedentary when Charley passed away, and his personality changed a lot after that. I don't think he ever got over grieving, as he certainly never wanted to go home in the evenings, and couldn't wait to get out of the house in the mornings. We tried everything to bring him around, but he became moodier and much more serious. However, he remained the epitome of gentle, and that's what made him (and his size) such a hit with the patients and other staff. Yes he was calm. But he was also very gentle - A gentle giant. I worry about using a smaller dog in this practice, despite the successes seen in so many cases. I have known other practices that used goldens and the goldens got injured or wound up snapping at children, and although they ultimately deserved to be snapped at, the dogs were no longer able to be used in the facilities. Most of these incidences turned out to be situations that should have been avoided, and I hold the facilties responsible for their dogs being injured or feeling the need to defend themselves. But that was one of the nicest things about Saxon's size. It was hard to, if not impossible, to make him feel cornered, and when he stood up, his face was out of reach of very young children who lack gross motor skills or who have fascination with eyes (it's a common theme, don't ask...). It gave us that extra measure of security that our dog was safe, even though we were constantly vigilant and hovering.

Do I wish that Goldens as a breed were larger? Yes. But they are magnificent dogs just as they are. Do I realize that Saxon's basically good health was likely a fluke? Yes. He was lucky in that he didn't seem to suffer any more health issues than most of the goldens I've known throughout the years, regardless of their sizes. He lived a happy and full life, and he enriched the lives of many. Was he unique? Yes he was, in every way. There are truly wonderful goldens of all sizes to be sure, and I regret that I have not accurately represented the breed or my two "ambassadors". Considering when I mentioned to my father how Saxon was so unlike any other Goldens, he responded "in size only." I guess somehow I had forgotten how absolutely playful and energetic Saxon had been before Charley passed away. And I concede that I was being a bit of a hater, despite the fact that my two monstrosities were every bit golden retriever. It wasn't until after Charley died that Saxon's low biddibility emerged. And even then, I shouldn't make him seem so far off the mark. He was bullheaded in that if I was running late and needed to go somewhere, he was going to need to go outside and he was going to wait until the very last possible minute, and then he was going to make me go outside and fetch him to get him inside. But once I was out there to get him, he'd happily race me to the backdoor and back inside, tail wagging the whole way. I have unfortunately known a good many GR's that were none-to-impressive in the personality category. Some were high strung, a few too many that were very hyperactive, and even two that were downright spiteful. Is my idea of "breed standard" skewed? Probably, yes. So I have to trust that my father wouldn't lead me wrong when he says that until Charley died, Saxon was a pretty ideal golden personality-wise. If I'd have had more encounters with smaller goldens who were like that, perhaps I wouldn't be so quick to favor large dogs. But then again, I'm a large guy, so hey.

Goldens are great dogs, and the breed is just as it needs to be. I personally love big dogs, and that made Saxon special to me, in that he was the best of both worlds. Great big, and golden retriever. While I would never turn down another gentle giant GR, and I really do think that there is a niche for such dogs, I do not believe that the best method of achieving that is through breeding dogs with less than ideal genetics.

While I would love to have a Newfie, I do not know that I can convince the those I work with/for that it would not be too intimidating. Saxon's size was imposing to say the least, but he was recognizable as a GR, and therefore, few people were truly terrified by him. Plus, the golden retriever crowd I work with is still in majority. Who knows, maybe I'll be able to find a blonde hovawart or slip a great pyrenees through without anyone noticing. 

Whatever happens in that situation, please accept my apologies for insulting the breed we're all here to enjoy. You have all answered my fundamental question, which, although I wish it had turned out differently, was just as I suspected: there is no legitimacy to the "giant" golden story/different lines within the breed explanation/, and there is no real mystery to these (wonderful) abnormalities other than insensitive and irresponsible breeding. I lucked out, as I said, with Saxon. But I don't really want to push my luck, so I may have to get a golden and some other breed as well (so I get my great big dog + golden retriever).


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

I'm so sorry for your loss. When the time is right I hope you find a healthy dog from a good breeder or rescue.

I second looking into Newfie's. They are truly wonderful. We have them from time to time in our shelter and they look like bears when they're puppies.


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

I have to agree with jackie_hubert, I think a Newfie would be a very good match for you. They are the most lovable lugs, every bit as good natured as Goldens. It is very hard to look into that Newfie face and be intimidated, I think their faces/eyes are every bit as expressive as a Goldens.

Best wishes to you.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I think everyone who has had a Golden with a proper temperament is heart broken that there are Golden's out there who are nasty or uncontrollable or who have snapped at children. That very reason is why so many of us hammer constantly about the "standard." It is there to preserve what a Golden is, including their wonderful personalities. 

And again, I don't think Hovawart or a Pyr have the personalities you are looking for. While Pyrs are great with their families, they are not really into new people (they are livestock guardian dogs(LGD) (although they are the least guardy of the LGDs)). Hovawarts worked not only as LGDs but also as herding dogs, they were not bred to be friendly to outside people.

Maybe you may want to look into a Landseer Newf. Their coloring makes them less intimidating than an all black Newf and they have the same wonderful calm friendly personalities (remember Nana in Peter Pan, she truly represented the breed).


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Landseer newfs are BEAUTIFUL! I know you said you think people will be intimidated by a newfie, but I dunno... every time I see one I just want to hug it to death.


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

kdmarsh said:


> every time I see one I just want to hug it to death.


Exactly - I feel the same way!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

They are beautiful, but they are quite significantly overweight in those photos... neither that nor being taller than a Borzoi are traits desired in a Golden. No slam on your beloved companions- but I would not seek out a giant Golden and then allow him to become that overweight.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

The last show I was at, there was a male newfy set up next to us -- his name was Voldemort but he didn't have Voldemort's personality! Holy cow -- what a love slug this dog was and irresistibly adorable. I mean I could not stop petting him, he was incredible.
Newfoundlands also come in brown -- a deep dark chocolate brown -- which is really beautiful and makes them looks like bears, even more than they already do! I really think a newfy would be perfect in this situation.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> The last show I was at, there was a male newfy set up next to us -- his name was Voldemort but he didn't have Voldemort's personality! Holy cow -- what a love slug this dog was and irresistibly adorable. I mean I could not stop petting him, he was incredible.
> Newfoundlands also come in brown -- a deep dark chocolate brown -- which is really beautiful and makes them looks like bears, even more than they already do! I really think a newfy would be perfect in this situation.


Lol @ naming your dog after an evil character in a book. Gee, I think my next dog's name will be Beelzebub. :


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

First of all, so sorry for your loss. Saxon was a beautiful dog, who I am sure loved you as much as you love him. Your best bet to check out local golden retriever rescues, as has been said before. I am sure you can find a large boy who would love to be your next dog there. That way you will save a life, and not support some BYB who is only breeding dogs to make money. I am sure this boy would love to find a home:

Delaware Valley Golden Retriever Rescue - Dog Database Jax #2

But as you can see, he has the issues associated with "oversized" goldens.


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## Dan Malmborg (Oct 10, 2021)

sphyrna18 said:


> My golden, Saxon, recently passed away at the age of 12. He was an amazing dog, tremendous companion, and valued friend, and I miss him very much. I am hoping to be able to find another golden like Saxon, as he was just incredible. However, I'm having trouble finding any information about goldens like him.
> 
> Saxon was what I have heard some call a 'giant golden', and he fit the bill in every way. He stood 33 inches at the withers, and in his prime, was a lean 138 pounds. He was very solidly built. He had the sweetest disposition, but wasn't actually very "golden retriever-like." He could be the most stubborn creature (people pleasing wasn't always on his To Do list, but it was always a bonus for him if what he wanted to do also happened to please those around him haha). He was caring and curious - to the point of being nosy - and very intelligent. Napping was his favorite activity, and he preferred attention to food. He loved toys and playing, but refused to 'fetch' and was devastated if you took his toy and threw it, and instead of retrieving it and bringing it back, he would mope at your feet until you got it and brought it to him. He never did anything standing up that he could do sitting down, and never did anything sitting down he could do laying. People with more knowledge of dog breeds than I have said he had all the best personality traits of a Great Pyrenees combined with all the best of a Golden. That would make sense if he were a hybrid, but I have his papers, and he was 100% golden retriever. Before anyone thinks it was just him: I have information about one of Saxon's brothers from the same litter, and that dog lived to 11 years old and weighed 142 pounds. Saxon's father was a gigantic dog, weighing in at 140 pounds and standing almost 34 inches tall. His mother, too, was a giant and weighed well around 110 pounds.
> 
> ...


My Golden "Buddy" lived to be 14. I lost him two years ago. He too was just under 33 in at the withers. He was a lover, although very independent. Loved his food, was very active and ran free on our 10+ acres. we took many walks and runs. He never ran away from home and always came when called. Unfortunately he never realized how large he was and loved to lap sit. we would always wind up lying on the floor. His hips finally gave out and he appealed to me for help so I helped him cross the rainbow bridge. Even now just writing about him brings up emotions, he is sorely missed. I was fortunate enough to find another giant golden 3 mos after Buddy passed. His name is Moose. He will be 2 yrs old Oct 16, 2021 and already weighs 93 lbs. He too has so many of the same traits as Buddy had. A real lover and again a lap sitter so we spend time on the floor. I just lucked out in finding Moose. Was on the internet and found him in Rochester NY. Ive looked for the phone number of the breeder but cannot find it. I wish you luck in your search


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