# Rumford's neuter disaster



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

My good friend Norm owns Tally's nephew, Rumford aka The Pumpkin. The Pumpkin is Copley's best pal. Rumford went in for a simple neuter surgery, but something went wrong, and he started hemmoraging blood. The vet had to go back in, reopening the incisions, and try to stop the excessive bleeding. Now, Rumford is bruised and bloody there, with hemotomas all over. My friend is scared, so I decided to ask the forum if you've ever heard of something going so wrong with this routine operation and if he will be safe thorough the night?


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm so sorry. I know neutering can go wrong. There was once a beautiful Golden up for adoption and pretty much lived outdoors because of incontinence. I hope all goes well and this pup recovers fully.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I do not know of this happening to anyone else, but just wanted to say good thoughts and prayers are being sent towards The Pumpkin from CT.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Thanks. This is Norm's first dog, and he is beyond worried. Joplin, Raleigh, Finn, Tally, Acadia, and Tango all had barely a reaction to the surgeries, and nothing at all worrisome happened. Rumford's stomach seems like it's filling up with blood slowly.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Good Lord...I'm so sorry. I have no other words, but I'll be praying for this pup.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

So he is still in the hospital right? It sounds like he is still bleeding internally. No wonder your friend is scared! I will be praying for the poor boy.

Selka had an undescended testicle so he had to have abdominal surgery as well as a regular neuter. He did fine, acted like nothing had even happened to him.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Oh my gosh, that is terrible...I hope everything goes allright! How old is he?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Is Rumford home or at the vet's? If he is home, hopefully the vet left a number where he can be reached. I have never heard of this with a Golden. I did lose a Pug girl during a spay but that has been all.

Is Rumford on any kind of garlic? Garlic is a blood thinner and was a topic of discussion on Work_Gold today. I wonder if the vet nicked something while he was in there.

So sorry about Rumford-I can only imagine what Norm is going through. Tell Norm not to be afraid to rush him back in if he thinks there is something wrong-Creed's father died due to internal bleeding after a surgery, and it was a terrible loss compounded by the needlessness of it.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

How awful! I will be thinking of him and hoping all turns out well.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

I sounds more like there is an underlying bleeding disorder or maybe he has developed DIC from the operation. I would think it would be best for him to be where he could be monitored 24/7. If the current vet can not do that, maybe he should be taken to an ER. Neuters can have complications, but this does not sound like a typical one. Kimm if you are talking about Helen's boy, he wears a belly band (male doggie diaper)and leads a fairly normal life. He does get to come inside.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Didn't Rummy have a CBC before the surgery? I assume platelets and clotting factors were all normal before he started.

It sounds like the vet nicked something and it ruptured once Rum-pum started moving around. Is his belly still filling with blood now that the second surgery is over? Is he at the vet's?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Ljilly28 said:


> Thanks. This is Norm's first dog, and he is beyond worried. Joplin, Raleigh, Finn, Tally, Acadia, and Tango all had barely a reaction to the surgeries, and nothing at all worrisome happened. Rumford's stomach seems like it's filling up with blood slowly.


I'd keep him at the vet's office - in case they've tried to send him home.

A friend of mine lost her Setter to hemorrhaging after a neuter. He was slow to come around and quite lethargic, but they still sent him home. He was bleeding out, but they didn't catch it. 

There's a member here with a female who had a severe bleeding issue after a spay... can't remember her name...

Anyway - not trying to scare you ---- but I'd want to keep him at the vets in case anything became worse. Sending good thoughts his way. Keep us posted.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

SM, this was another Golden that I found online once. Jill, I sent you a link. This pup should be in an ER hospital if he's bleeding...I sure hope he is somewhere with 24 hour care. If not, I'd get him there.

Here's an article you may be interesting in reading. http://www.docstoc.com/docs/23684443/WHOOPS!-SPAY-NEUTER-COMPLICATIONS-AND-HOW-TO-AVOID-THEM/


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Also, he has hematomas all over, like all over his body? Not just around the site of the surgery?

That would be SUPER scary and indicate a systemic clotting disregulation. If that's the case, Claire's Friend may be right about DIC. DIC should not happen from a tiny incision like that, but if there's also an infection, it would be possible, I guess.


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## Noey (Feb 26, 2009)

sending the little guy some prayers. 

I hope he is ok.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

There is a forum I stumbled upon and they were taking about spay and neutering and DIC. A number of posters experienced this with their dogs.


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

No advice here but I am surely keeping Norm and sweet little Rumford in my thoughts until he is better again. Please keep us posted!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

He needs to be monitored overnight, not left at a vet's office where there is no-one staying with him. If he is at a vet's office, please be absolutely sure there is staff there every minute all night long.

Please tell me he is being monitored.


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## Kevin's Goldens (May 22, 2008)

Prayers are with you and Rumford. As stated above, please be sure he is being monitored all night. Also, make sure your vet keeps you posted every hour. 
Please keep us posted. Good Luck!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I feel pretty guilty, bc I told Norm the biggest deal was just trying to keep them quiet bc they hardly notice. I wonder if Rumford has anaplasmosis?


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## SweetSoul (Apr 27, 2010)

Just awful, poor little guy. Prayers and lots of love to sweet Rumford. Please let us know how he is doing.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

oh dear.....my heart goes out to Norm and Rumford....how frightening...


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Wow! If he's not already at a critical care center, he needs to be ASAP. I can't envision a scenario like this with a neuter. I sure hope he's going to be OK.


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## Luci (May 26, 2009)

Oh no! I'll definitely be thinking of the little guy! Please keep us up to date with how he's doing!


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

How scary! I hope things are better tonight. Keep us up to date on Rumsford.


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## Bogey's Mom (Dec 23, 2008)

Poor Rummy Pum! It sounds like things have gotten worse since we last talked about this, Jill. I think I would have him under 24-hour care too. I would hate for Norm to go to bed and not notice something. Internal bleeding isn't something to mess around with.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I will keep Rumford in my prayers.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Any updates?? So scary....I'm hoping all goes well.


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

Oh my god, this is just awful. I will keep Norm and Rumford in my prayers.


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

Poor baby, keeping Rumford in my prayers!


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## 3SweetGoldens (Feb 28, 2007)

Just seeing this late tonight jill. Keeping Rumford and Norm in my prayers. This is just so frightening, and I so hope he is at 24 hour emergency care tonight. It would scare me so much, worrying about internal bleeding, with no one awake to watch him throughout the night. Please keep us updated.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Rumford is doing better. He had an artery that needed to be "readdressed"? Is that vet code for they screwed up and nicked the artery? They are lucky Norm( overwhelmed at this point) was there instead of me, bc I probably would have asked how that happened! Poor guy is black and blue on his whole belly, but it seems like he will be okay. Scary! I've never really heard of a problem with a simple neuter before.


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

How scary. I hope the 're-addressing' has stopped the bleeding and the little guy will be alright. I'd have asked how that happened also. Guess this goes to show that there really is no such thing as a simple surgery.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Rumford is doing better. He had an artery that needed to be "readdressed"? Is that vet code for they screwed up and nicked the artery. They are lucky Norm( overwhelmed at this point) was there instead of me, bc I probably would have asked how that happened! Poor guy is black and blue on his whole belly, but it seems like he will be okay. Scary! I've never really heard of a problem with a simple neuter before.


Phew! 

I don't think "readdress" is a special medical term. I think it means they nicked it on the first go-round and didn't seal it up properly, and it ruptured when he started moving, so they had to go back and patch it up. I think the doctor is trying to use a fancy word to make it sound less like he screwed up.

Thank goodness it wasn't DIC. I imagine that Rum will get better quickly from here.

I certainly hope they didn't charge him for two surgeries. Norm is in a very good position to ask some tough questions if they try to charge him for more than the standard neuter.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

This is why I am so very anal when it comes to finding a vet I can trust. We drive an hour to get to our vet but I trust her explicitly. She is the best, I feel, in the area hands down. I am glad that the doggy will be okay but I highly recommend your friend finding another vet and to be very picky about who they settle on.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Mistakes happen. This is why I pray whenever I hear the word, surgery. If a doc writes an article like the one I posted, you know it happens more often than we hear about. I felt the pain of one doc's mistakes. 

I'm so happy he is recovering...keep us posted Jill!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Wow, so much for telling someone not to worry about these "routine" surgeries. I'm glad he's okay now.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

how scary! I sure hope he's okay!


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

I'm so glad the dog is going to be all right.

Remind your friend that he needs to make sure that the bill that is presented to him is also "readdressed."


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

God, how scary! I hope everything goes well from here on out and that Rumford recovers quickly.


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2009)

I'm just seeing this thread now - glad I didn't read it a month ago before Tim was neutered!
We'll be keeping Rumford in our prayers for a speedy recovery and
keeping Norm in our thoughts as I'm sure he's a nervous wreck!!!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I just saw this. I am glad that he is doing better. How scary!


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

What a nightmare. I'm so glad that Rumford (love his name) is doing better and keeping fingers/paws crossed that he heals up quickly. I hope Rumford isn't in pain.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

The original vet told Norm that "an artery dropped out of place". What??


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

Glad to hear Rumford is on his way to recovery! What a frightening experience for your friend Norm!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> The original vet told Norm that "an artery dropped out of place". What??


Hmm...more like "there was an artery where I wasn't expecting one, and I ruptured it without noticing."

If I were Norm, I would probably be playing a little hardball right about now. Actually, if I were in his place, I'd probably be feeling so much relief that the dog was OK that it would be hard for me to hold the vet to the wall, but I still think he ought to. This really sounds like vet error. A good vet can still make mistakes, but the cost should not be passed on to Norm.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

She is a super popular vet, although not one of the two I use. It does sound all very strange. Poor Rumford The Pumpkin. . .I hope he will be okay today.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> She is a super popular vet, although not one of the two I use. It does sound all very strange. Poor Rumford The Pumpkin. . .I hope he will be okay today.


I imagine that if they tied off the artery properly this time, he should recover straightaway. The bruising is probably not as uncomfortable as it looks, though the site is probably very tender from having been opened up twice.


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## Augustus McCrae's Mom (Aug 14, 2007)

I'm glad he's doing better! Please keep us updated on his progress. Poor guy!


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

Just catching this thread now too. Was super worried at page 1 and 2, but felt visible relief as I read on. Glad to hear it was not a more underlying disease and that once they identified the dropped artery they were able to make the necessary corrections.
I can imagine the fear this family was going through.
So glad to hear that Rumford is going to be ok.


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## Kevin's Goldens (May 22, 2008)

Just to play it safe, maybe a second opinion from another vet in your area... Just to be sure that you are doing all that you need to. We would not want to have any future issues as a result of this.


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## BearValley (Nov 30, 2008)

I've been following this since yesterday and praying for Rum D. Pum...whew, what a relief...as long as it continues.

After reading so many well considered posts I'm thinking of surgical risks in the following light: There is always risk - anesthesia, infection, bleeding...it's complicated and anything but routine...but not necessarily dangerous. Only the well conceived procedures and the extremely low rates of complications make it _seem_ routine.

The most important thing is that Norm's little boy is stable and improving.

*Hooray Pumpkin!*


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Wow, I'm so glad he is recovering. What a scary situation. Reading this makes me so grateful Barkley's vet did such a wonderful job on his splenectomy and we didn't have this type of complication at the beginning of his hemangiosarcoma journey. 

I realize vets make mistakes but the explanation that was given really makes me question her integrity. Why not just admit it instead of being afraid of a malpractice suit. I'd be running away from that veterinary practice as fast as I could. 

When Barkley's acupuncture vet was told of his hemangiosarcoma diagnosis she warned me Barkley would have bleeding incidents (internal) and insisted I go home with a chinese herb called yunnan paiyao. Each box had a tiny little "emergency" pill. He did so well until the end when we were facing increasingly heavy nosebleeds. When his veterinary team basically told us they didn't have any more tricks up their sleeves to stop the episodes we used the herb and it worked for a while, even though we didn't give it with wine, as the English instruction insert directed.


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

Whew, double thank goodness it wasn't DIC....or possibly another coagulation issue. Rum Pum may have had some different vasculature down there....an artery in an odd place, not something the vet would be looking for, or even noticed, maybe. And yeah, "readdressed" can mean "oops", or "missed that", or even "I have no idea"....


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## Maya's Mom (Apr 13, 2009)

How terrifying! I am so relieved that he is okay. I would be beyond pissed off at the vet. They shouldn't charge him anything, let alone anything beyond the normal neuter fee. I wish I hadn't read this 3 days before Maya's spay! :uhoh: I was already a nervous wreck!


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## turtle66 (Feb 19, 2010)

I am glad to hear that Rumford is doing better.
I do agree with BaerValley, when you sign the consent you sign up that bleeding, infection and anesthesia problems can happen. And they can, even in simple procedures. If you can proof a real mistake, you are in a better place for a claim (e.g. left scissors in the belly). You have to cut vessels for this procedure but you also have to tight them up and make sure bleeding has stopped. So the question is why didn't/couldn't they realize the bleeding earlier (before finishing the surgery?). A second opinion might be a good idea...and since it was a complication, I would imagine that the vet will find a 'billing consent' and will relief some of the costs but I am not sure if this will be a successful malpractice claim. 

A big hug to Rumford,

Heike


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Wow, glad he is okay. 

Puts a simple surgery back into perspective. I always worry about the anesthesia, not other complications.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Oh my gosh how scary!! Glad he seems to be on the mend now... 

I always feel so silly having anxiety issues over Sammy's upcoming neuter when it's such a routine thing, but then there are things like this!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I thought I'd check in and say that Rumford is fine now. He went on to develop a bad systemic infection, and the whole thing was really a fiasco for my poor friend as a first time dog owner. However, Rumford The Pumpkin holds no grudges; here he is this morning in the ocean 100 percent cheerful and well:


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## Sienna's Mom (Oct 23, 2007)

Oh my!! What an absolutely gorgeous puppers!!!!! So glad he is completely recovered!!!


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

He is just gorgeous! What a horrific experience for both Rumsford and his first pup owner. Geesh. I am so glad everything worked out OK.
I tell you, the more experiences I read here (including my own) the more it scares me to think of ever getting another puppy.


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## lucysmum (Sep 2, 2010)

So glad to hear that Rumford is feeling better. I just wanted to say... what a magnificent picture of him.

Lucys Mum


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Rum-pum! He looks great!


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

When I talked to the vet about what age to neuter she wants do it before a year because she says there is less blood and it is easier on the dog. How old was Rum Pum?


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Ian'sgran, I don't know that all would agree about the under one year neuter. You might want to read a few articles on age of neutering.
My dog was done at 21 months and there never was a bleeding or any other discomfort issue during recovery (other than the Elizabethan collar they put on him so he wouldn't lick his stitches. He was so miserable with it on that I took it off that first evening and he never bothered his stitches anyway)
Glad to hear Rum is doing well. He is a very intelligent looking dog.


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## Jenna (Aug 21, 2010)

Oh wow. After reading this thread, it makes me hesitate to spay my Golden Retriever after I get her. I'll definitely need to find the best vet in the area. 

Very scary.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Ian'sgran said:


> When I talked to the vet about what age to neuter she wants do it before a year because she says there is less blood and it is easier on the dog. How old was Rum Pum?


There's lots of validity to that. My friend's PWD just had a struggle too, and the vet said waiting until age two makes it harder for the body to reabsorb necrotic tissue. It's much easier on them at age 6-9 months- at least the surgery itself.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Debles said:


> He is just gorgeous! What a horrific experience for both Rumsford and his first pup owner. Geesh. I am so glad everything worked out OK.
> I tell you, the more experiences I read here (including my own) the more it scares me to think of ever getting another puppy.


Deb, you HAVE to go through the sunrise of the golden puppy again. You're too good an owner to get scared away!


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> There's lots of validity to that. My friend's PWD just had a struggle too, and the vet said waiting until age two makes it harder for the body to reabsorb necrotic tissue. It's much easier on them at age 6-9 months- at least the surgery itself.


Not to mention the difference in size of the testicles/blood vessels, etc. and the strength of attachments with in the scrotum. That's not to say that large numbers of "older" dog neuters have problems (they don't), but it *is* easier in a youngster. Everyone has to read, research, talk with their vet and breeder and come to the conclusion about what is best for their dog.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I thought I'd let everyone see how well Rumford is doing now, though it did take forever to get over the surgery mishap, with an infection following all the trouble. He is the "leader" of SummerFeet Bike Trips, and such a good boy!


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## oakleysmommy (Feb 20, 2011)

He is just gorgeous!! Just read the thread and so glad he made it through and is doing well now Handsome guy!!


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

What a great story and I am so glad to read of the Happy forever after....
That was the 1st time I read the thread and I can tell you I was afraid to read the update! Way to go Rumford!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

It really shook my faith in that vet, and now I go to great lengths to avoid her, even for things like porcupine quills.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Rumsford*

Rumsford

Just read this thread and I am so very happy for Rumsford and his owner that he is o.k. He is a beauty!!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Thanks for updating us, he is gorgeous.


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