# American vs Canadian - Difference in what wins?



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

From what I understand, the biggest difference between AKC and CKC is the competition and ease of finishing. CKC is sometimes seen as more owner handler friendly in some ways.

CKC - the dogs need 10 points to finish - of which one of those needs to be a 2 point win.

AKC - the dogs need 15 points to finish, of which 2 of those need to be 3 point majors. 

I don't know how many dogs need to be competing for a 2 point win in CKC, but AKC - you may need to beat 15 to 20 dogs, if not more to get a 3 point major. Unless you finish a dog as a puppy, this means that you are showing your dog in very big Open classes. So you have to win big over really big handlers in a lot of cases.

Also - a lot of CKC shows might not have electric available, which downscales the amount of grooming you can do. <= Not necessarily the same thing as UKC which 'technically" doesn't permit grooming. I have a friend who sent a young dog over to show in CKC this summer with a pro handler (who will have all their own stuff + electric at their camper) - and this dog is very well groomed every show and he has done very well. He ranks high for the breed in Canada. 

AKC can be difficult for owner handlers because it's not just a steep learning curve to figure out the handling skills they need. It's also becoming as good as pros at grooming their own dogs. <= I mention owner handlers, because many of the local euro style breeders that I've seen at AKC shows handler their own dogs. They are not sending them out with pros. And they are not as successful as certain breeders who do send their dogs out with the handful of pros who kinda "specialize" a little in finishing dogs of that style in both AKC and CKC.

As far as dogs getting the gate in AKC - I have not ever seen a dog excused for looking too European. Actually, the biggest reason why a dog will get excused is for lack of soundness (limping) or temperament flaws. Otherwise, I think both judges and exhibitors want to preserve majors and thank others for showing. 

There's a few judges in AKC who are very favorable towards the style and will put up a European style golden - and that will attract handlers and lighter dogs. Sometimes too there's also judges visiting from UK or Aus as well who draw the Eurps out of the woodwork... <= This doesn't always create a major though since people won't show to a judge who is expected to favor a different style of dog. You might have friends of the judge + European style goldens from all over the country showing up, but it might not be enough numbers for a major since everyone else who brings 5-10 dogs with them each will skip.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Kate – My apologies for my delayed reply to your thoughtful post… I had a long response all typed in this weekend and when I hit “post” the site froze and I lost it all. ☹ Trying again…

I found your response very helpful, illuminating, and thought provoking. To give you some context of why I’m asking… I’m expecting to buy my fifth golden early in 2019 (breeder and breeding chosen, bitch is in heat…), and it’s possible that I may get a “show quality” puppy with full rights this time. The sire and dam are very European looking (light coats, heavier bodies than the typical American dog), so I assume the puppy will be also. The conformation ring and breeding has never been my calling (I work my dogs in Rally and Agility), but if this dog does grow up to be worthy of the show ring (or shows potential as a puppy), I thought it might be fun to learn how to handle him in the show ring and see how he does. The grooming shouldn’t be a barrier because 1) I believe that a golden SHOULD be able to win without being over-groomed and 2) I have a groomer who is a Golden breeder who could do a “show groom” for me if requested. I would only be doing local (New England) shows and showing him myself (he’d be a pet first and foremost and I wouldn’t be willing to send him off with anyone out of my supervision). I’m willing to learn to be a good handler, AND to accept that I’ll likely never be as good as the professionals, but I don’t see the point in spending the money to take classes or to enter conformation shows if my dog has no chance of winning, no matter how good an example he may be of the breed (which was the reason for my original question). All that said, based on your reply, it sounds like it might be fun to take up the challenge! If nothing else, I may help the rest of you to get your Majors (although there’s a limit to my generosity if my boy never even places! ?).


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Oh. I didn't mean to discourage anyone. Was just answering the question as far as why I think we don't see more European style goldens being shown every show in AKC vs being told to go up to show in Canada. 

As long as the dogs have a little color... you can do some selective showing (meaning, pick your judges). And make sure the dogs are not overweight and flabby.

What you might want to do is seek out those handlers out there who specialize in showing and finishing the European style goldens. Talk to them about what to look for in a puppy + ask for tips regarding which judges to seek out. 

Talk to the handlers vs the breeders. 

There's a breeder who specializes in the style and he has made a big deal to anyone who listens that these dogs should be able to arrive at a show site and go right into the ring without any grooming. <= Which sounds fine, except one time I set up across the aisle from him. 

My dog was all groomed (bathed, dried, feet and ears touched up) within an hour of me arriving and I sat down to doze off with my eyes open for the remaining wait time before goldens went into the ring. 

I ended up watching this breeder and his wife grooming their dogs. And their dogs were groomed for almost 2 hours. There was a lot of fluffing and product flying. 

Not saying the breeders would not be helpful - but be wary if somebody tells you that the dogs go right into the ring without anything extra being done.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I have a European looking dog, and what I was told, use the first year as practice, then once both you and the dog are trained, shop around for judges. My dog looks like a carbon copy of his father, who has done very well in the show ring. He is just a few point short of is Silver Grand CH. His owner has given me a list of judges to try to enter under, and will tell me which ones will not be interested. Interestingly she has been spot on about the ones that would like him, but I have had some surprises with judges she thought would not like him and do. 

I met one breeder this summer and she told me it costs $10K for a owner handled to get a CH on an American looking golden, and $15k for owner handled English/European CH. Personally, I am afraid to add it up.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Another thing is look for breeder judges - judges that have bred golden retrievers, rather than judges that have bred other breeds.


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