# Buyers don't care, nor should they.



## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I agree. To an extent. 

I wanted a healthy dog from health tested parents that had a good solid Golden temperament and was on the coppery golden color range. 

I wasn’t going to show nor do field work so titles didn’t matter to me. 

Now....the thing is, that a breeder is tested in what he/she produces. And the way to test that is against competitors. 

When I had border collies I wanted that BC intelligence and drive and didn’t care about looks, but the only way to know if the intelligence was there was to have parents that had that intelligence. 

Similarly, when I wanted a golden, the only way to know if the health and temperament were there is to have health test and to see how the dogs behaved. The breeders who provided that information were those that competed. 

So....although I didn’t care about show or field titles, the way for me to know the breeder would provide the health and temperament I was looking for was to look for breeders who competed. I wanted a companion dog, I had burned out on dog sports and competition, but to get a pet dog I had to look for a competitive breeder. 


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## ken71 (Jun 15, 2018)

Totally agree. Our boy came from a work colleague who wanted her girl to have a litter. Dixie has an excellent pedigree, as had the sire, Rossini. Both also had excellent health scores (eye, hip etc.).

We asked for a lighter colour pup if possible but it wasn’t a deal breaker. We just wanted a lovely family pet with a good temperament and that is exactly what we have.

I paid the going rate and wouldn’t have dreamed of paying less because my colleague isn’t a show breeder.

Sometimes I do get exasperated by some of the snobbery surrounding the breed. 


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I can see your point and agree with the compromise you are suggesting for the most part. I was looking for a dog to compete with but have many friends that just want a healthy puppy to enjoy. But...

There are so many people that post after getting their discount puppy wondering when their growing puppy will begin to look like their image of a golden. or people are posting because of behavior issues or having trouble with a dog that won't be trained or has zero focus. Then of course there is the health issues. There have been so many with joint problems, parasites, bad hearts... and many have lost those puppies. Many of these people felt like they were rescuing these pups which I totally get but they don't seem to realize when they rescue these poor babies they are actually contributing to the problem. As long as these people make money, they will continue to produce poorly bred pups.

I like a breeder that competes in some venue as it tells me the dog knows how to be a good family member. I also like to know the breeder cared enough about the pups they produce to give me a healthy pup. So where do you draw the line? If you are just producing pups because you have a male and a female and don't care about the standard is this really a good thing? 

I am a pet person, I love my pets for just being in my life. They don't have to be perfect, I enjoy making them happy. I love being with them and sharing each day doing something, my girls bring so much joy into my life just being a golden. But I want them to look like a golden, act like a golden and be healthy and balanced in temperment. My 1st golden was a rescue and blessed with good health but that was almost 30 yrs ago. Too many people breed with nothing more than profit on their minds ... guess I just don't want to lower my standards because people don't know better. 

I could agree with your point if these people were pricing their pups for a few hundred vs a few thousand. If I'm going to pay for a Mercedes I don't expect to get a Kia and purchase insurance on top of that.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I totally agree I'm concept. The problem is that it's rarely true that a breeder that is doing all the correct health clearances, aren't showing it titling their dogs in some venue. 

For example, the recent past from the last few days with someone asking about a breeder that does not show but recently got into breeding and is doing the health clearances, they are trying to do the right thing. But that is RARE to do the clearances like that but not show. 

I believe that all people want a healthy dog, that's not up for debate. I believe all people want a golden with the classic golden temperament, again no debate. I think MOST want a good looking golden, a dog that looks like a typical golden and not one with vet low ears and looks like a Setter, or they'd just get a mix.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

A comment on people wanting a dog that looks like a typical Golden. All my dogs are champion show dogs. They are all bred to the standard. Yesterday, while running 6 of them at a private park, another dog owner asked me what my dogs were mixed with. She didn't recognize them as pure bred Goldens, because they actually look different from all the poorly bred, early spay/neuter Goldens that she usually sees.

I'm not sure most folks really know what a Golden is supposed to look like.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

I agree - there are many people who don't know what a proper Golden should look like. Yesterday at the park, someone asked me if Shala is a Golden Retriever, and I said yes. The woman said, "but why is she so dark? Is she mixed with something?" I told her about the range of colour a Golden can be and she was so interested. She simply had never seen a darker Golden. She thought they were all kind of medium gold or lighter. The vast majority around here are. 

I don't hold this kind of thing against people. Afterall, I have no idea what the breed standard is for any other breed. I saw some adorable Cavaliers yesterday and a gorgeous what I thought was a pit bull, but I have no clue if he was. I'm not good with telling all the bulldog breeds apart. And I have no clue if the cute Cavvies were to breed standard. They were just cute. For some people, I think they just don't know what they don't know. They have only seen big, poorly bred Goldens or Labs, and so they think that is what Goldens and Labs look like.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

I think breeders fall on a spectrum. At one end of the spectrum you have people we call backyard breeders, who have a male and a female, aren't concerned about health testing or breeding to the standard and breed them to produce a litter of goldens to sell on craigslist, the paper, to friends etc. Or commercial puppy mills and kennels just cranking out puppies for cash.

On the opposite end of the spectrum you have very serious breeders that compete professionally in one venue or another, and are breeding for performance on top of the breed standard, have all health clearances and have worked hard to establish their program and their lines.

Somewhere in the middle, you have breeders who may absolutely love and cherish the breed, and for whatever reason competing is not for them. They abide by the CoE, they may have a certain "type" of dog they like to produce, heck they may even breed adhering to the standard without titling their dogs. 

_Let's say you have a breeder who I guess would fall in the middle of the spectrum. Breeder is a really sweet woman who you could just tell loves her dogs. This is her passion. She has a few females, one male, and is planning a litter with one of her females and another breeder's stud. She breeds for temperament as her number 1 priority and often sells pups to therapy homes. Her dogs certainly have that conformation "look". They have the core 4 clearances, and some genetic testing. Most of the dogs have CGC titles or maybe therapy certifications. 
_
Would I take a puppy from a breeder like this if I all I wanted was a happy, healthy, companion dog? Probably. Would I recommend a breeder like that to anyone looking for a beautiful, even tempered golden _family_ companion? Yes. 

Of course there are breeders who fall elsewhere on the spectrum who sometimes do clearances, maybe get prelims and that's it, or compete here and there but not as their career path.

I think it is important to remember that a lot of folks who come to this forum know nothing about the CoE, the breed standard or how to even find a half decent breeder. Many times people wont be willing to go as far as the top end of the 'breeder' spectrum for whatever reason, but want to do their best to find a responsible breeder. 

I do think there is a way to educate people on best practices while respecting that they will end up making the decision that best works for them.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Sweet Girl said:


> I agree - there are many people who don't know what a proper Golden should look like. Yesterday at the park, someone asked me if Shala is a Golden Retriever, and I said yes. The woman said, "but why is she so dark? Is she mixed with something?" I told her about the range of colour a Golden can be and she was so interested. She simply had never seen a darker Golden. She thought they were all kind of medium gold or lighter. The vast majority around here are.
> 
> I don't hold this kind of thing against people. Afterall, I have no idea what the breed standard is for any other breed. I saw some adorable Cavaliers yesterday and a gorgeous what I thought was a pit bull, but I have no clue if he was. I'm not good with telling all the bulldog breeds apart. And I have no clue if the cute Cavvies were to breed standard. They were just cute. For some people, I think they just don't know what they don't know. They have only seen big, poorly bred Goldens or Labs, and so they think that is what Goldens and Labs look like.


I was asked if Moe was a Gold Setter when we were away last weekend. I ended up speaking to the man and he thought he was a Golden mixed with an Irish Setter, apparently that's a thing now too. I politely explained he was a dark Golden. I've actually owned Irish Setters and Golden's and don't know why you would mix the two. I explained that Moe is from a line of dark golden's and that sometimes field bred dogs are darker and thinner. I also had Duke with me who is a conformation/field line cross, but is much more your TV commercial looking Golden. The man said "so he hunts?" and I explained they both did. He was mind blown.

I actually prefer my dogs to be of correct conformation, it's just important to me. I think the most important thing for everyone is health.

I would also like to say that sometimes even with all the clearances you can run into a problem. Doing all your research and making sure everything is correct is still not a guarantee. I was shocked when we recently had problems with Moe. I was informed by one of the top Ortho Specialty Centers that 12% of dogs with clearances from both parents can still develop joint issues. Moe has clearances on multiple generations and he is doing fine, but we've had a rough first year. I don't know what a typical puppy buyer would have done. I don't blame our breeder. I don't think we would have found out he had problems if we weren't field training though.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Sweet Girl said:


> I agree - there are many people who don't know what a proper Golden should look like. Yesterday at the park, someone asked me if Shala is a Golden Retriever, and I said yes. The woman said, "but why is she so dark? Is she mixed with something?" I told her about the range of colour a Golden can be and she was so interested. She simply had never seen a darker Golden. She thought they were all kind of medium gold or lighter. The vast majority around here are.
> 
> I don't hold this kind of thing against people. Afterall, I have no idea what the breed standard is for any other breed. I saw some adorable Cavaliers yesterday and a gorgeous what I thought was a pit bull, but I have no clue if he was. I'm not good with telling all the bulldog breeds apart. And I have no clue if the cute Cavvies were to breed standard. They were just cute. For some people, I think they just don't know what they don't know. They have only seen big, poorly bred Goldens or Labs, and so they think that is what Goldens and Labs look like.


I have had that too. Not a ton, but some. They will ask what breed she is or if she's pure bred. It make me laugh. They ask what's so funny. So I explain that she what a golden is supposed to look like and that there are field Goldens with less bone that can be Reddish in color. They look at me like I'm crazy sometimes.

I also love the fact when other golden owners see Maggie a couple have ask what kind of dog or she's so small is she mixed lol. Again I just chuckle and explain. I think I said before I need brochures to just hand out.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I do agree HOWEVER --- FINDING a breeder who does all the health checks but does NOT compete (not even marginally....like CGC, CCA, etc) is REALLY HARD. They just aren't out there to refer people to!

Although I gotta say, I found one. Lady called me asking about stud service. She lives in my town and I've never heard of her. At first I was exceedingly skeptical. Met with her in person in hopes of an educational event. Turns out, her bitch is from very well known pedigree and has ALL her clearances. She's owned the dam's side of the pedigree for three generations. All have clearances. She's bred to decent dogs. She has a litter or two and keeps one on down the line. Dogs were happy and healthy and perfectly good golden retrievers. I was floored. I found the golden egg LOL


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I do find it a bit disheartening when people want a type of dog but don't do any research on it. They will just go out and buy one and have no idea how to raise or train them. Nothing about the history or anything. When I say most people want a golden to look like a golden, that can still be 60% of people and that could leave 40% clueless. Unfortunately, I think it will always be that way. They see a dog, like it right then for the 10 mom they pet it and just go but one. Reputable breeders will screen and also hello educate but the backyard breeders are just happy to get their puppies sold no matter what most time.


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## Jmcarp83 (May 4, 2018)

DanaRuns said:


> A comment on people wanting a dog that looks like a typical Golden. All my dogs are champion show dogs. They are all bred to the standard. Yesterday, while running 6 of them at a private park, another dog owner asked me what my dogs were mixed with. She didn't recognize them as pure bred Goldens, because they actually look different from all the poorly bred, early spay/neuter Goldens that she usually sees.
> 
> I'm not sure most folks really know what a Golden is supposed to look like.


“Oh is this a corgi golden mix?”

I didn’t even know how to respond 2 weeks ago. My response was, “Nope. She’s a golden retriever who’s bred to the breed standard. Her parents have their Grand Champion titles.” I just...couldn’t believe it. 

As far as what I wanted, I wanted a healthy puppy who could be a therapy dog eventually. That was the main thing. But I was very interested in versatility of mom/dad. And I got that. Mom has Rally, Field titles on top of show titles. And Dad is working hard in therapy and he has his show titles. And I do not doubt he could do all other stuff. I have a 9.5 month old puppy who pays excellent attention in Rally and will start Obedience in summer (thanks first heat for cancelling spring LOL). She was at an event (one mentioned above) and a therapy organization has already said she’d pass at 9 months but has to wait. So...I am more than pleased because while she is a pet...she’s active in other avenues. Her obsession with birds makes me cringe, so we are NOT exploring that avenue because I’ll croak when a dead duck comes back with her! Lol 

That being said...the more I go to dog shows the more interested I’ve become in exploring that avenue down the road (w/ a male).


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

DanaRuns said:


> Puppy buyers don't want a show dog. They don't want a hunting dog. They don't care about conformation or suitability for original purpose. Structure isn't high on their list. The breed standard means nothing to them. They don't care if the breeder is competing with her dogs. And why should they? All they are looking for is a companion, and until they came here they didn't even know about all that stuff. What they care about is having a generally healthy dog with the famous Golden temperament. If they want anything specific at all it's usually a sex, a color, or a "therapy dog."
> 
> So, this being generally true, perhaps when we recommend breeders to them we should broaden our scope from puppies WE would want to puppies THEY would want. I've seen threads recently where breeders were receiving disapproval because they don't compete. That may be important to us, but it certainly doesn't matter to most puppy buyers. How about we expand our horizons a bit, for their sake? Finding puppies WE would approve of is super hard. Why limit the pool so drastically? Let's _help_ folks find what they are looking for.
> 
> Do you agree or disagree with this?


*insert gif of person pulling hair out and screaming* LOL. This is me trying to organize the multitude of thoughts shooting off in different directions after reading this. :laugh:

First, before I answer this, I'll share what I look for in a puppy or how my brain works on this...

1. I want a blond to med gold colored golden. I like the dark reddish colors, but they are difficult to show in conformation so I would probably steer clear of litters where I have an idea that the pups will be very dark. 

2. I like correct coats and dark DARK pigment. <= And this is a touchy one because you can't tell what kind of pigment a dog has just looking at them in the show ring. Coats are a little easier. If a dog has too much coat prior to age 3, that's a bad sign. Good coat isn't "no coat". Having a thin or single coat (instead of double coat) and no furnishings, it means the pup I bring home will probably inherit that same coat. Ditto when I see parents who can't get wet because of skin problems or their coats need to be straightened or who knows what else. I don't want my dog to look like a yak, but I want them to have a moderate thick coat with nice thick furnishings. 

3. Heads and expression. This is an awkward one because I like big masculine heads on my boys, but I do not want a dog with a fat BLOB of a face. :laugh: Expressions need to be soft and friendly and sweet. 

4. Structure. I like dogs to be athletic, agile, sound, well balanced and just flashy. This goes back to a time when I was sitting ringside and watching a very famous and champion of everything GSP in the obedience ring and thinking about how much I wanted a golden with that kind of structure. 

5. Breeder needs to be somebody who is nice. There are breeders out there who are excellent breeders, but I've found them to be very rude to others. 

6. I'd like the breeder to be active in showing in conformation. Not just because this means that they will know what's what and what should be there in a dog, but it also means they are easy to stay in touch with and the dogs grow up knowing and loving their breeders. 


^^^ A good majority of show goldens out there have the right look, but I've heard or seen through the grapevine that one of the reasons why some breeders are ALWAYS breeding multiple different types of litters is they have problems producing the same types of puppies. This is why knowing more about the breeder and what they produce matters.

Clearances - are very important to me. I'm probably more casual in some areas than some people and more stringent in other areas than some people.

NCL - I know it is scary serious for some people, but I do not believe it's in the lines I'm interested in. 

PU - I know it's scary serious and a real threat... but knowing the breeders and the dogs behind mine's... it helps.

Cancer - DOES scare me. I was just at the chiropractor with my Bertie and the vet and I were both crying together while talking about losing our dogs around the same period of time and how we are moving forward and healing. I was gratified learning from her that my feelings about mostly avoiding a lot of activities I enjoyed with Jacks (classes, shows, trials, big hiking trips, etc) were not just me. She went through the same. We spent a good time discussing cancer and how rapidly both our dogs failed... 

The horrific thing is both she and I were very fortunate. Her dog was 8 and mine almost 11. There are dogs out there in the breed who are dying as young dogs from very rare cancers in some cases. And certain lines and breeders seem to have more bad luck than others and it's a struggle for them coming to terms with what's going on. This is a case of knowing what's rumbling in the grapevine. Some of it is obnoxious, mean spirited, resentful, ignorant and jealous gossip, but some of it is legit. For me, it all depends on who is sharing the information.

Selecting a puppy for myself - extra degree and level of consideration even when getting a pup from a good breeder with a very uniform and nice litter. There are so many considerations that go through your head and absolutely have heard of people who made wrong choices! 

^^^ As you can see, there's a lot of stuff that goes through your head when selecting a puppy for yourself.

Generally speaking, when offering suggestions for people who are NOWHERE NEAR needing a good breeding prospect in a puppy - it's easier just to recommend breeders who typically are good quality (they are conscientious in what/how they breed), produce good quality puppies, are kind people, and typically have very happy puppy buyers. Those breeders have waiting lists and are more discriminating in who they select as a puppy home (one breeder has a list, including no kids under a certain age, no apartments, no electric fences, etc)


***** THAT SAID****** 

People who come on this forum do not inquire about those good breeders and for one reason or another they do not find anything at those breeders when pointed that direction.

Instead they inquire about really random sounding breeders who basically - I would probably turn down based on the kennel name! LOL.

I wonder what exactly these puppy buyers entered in their google search terms to find these breeders... and have a feeling it was "golden puppies + city + state" in many cases. 

If you have a backyard breeder who is enterprising enough to put up a website and load up search term thingies so they will show up pretty quick on google searches - they then woo inquiring puppy buyers with lots of pictures of puppies and families and homey settings. 

The dogs themselves might be very poor quality, but majority of people who know nothing about dogs - they have problems differentiating between goldens and labs. Forget about differentiating between goldens. 

I literally know of people who look at a bunch of goldens in the ring and they literally think they all look the same! 

People who spend their time STARING at dogs (makes us sound psychotic actually), can look in the ring and have a good idea who the breeder was.

This isn't just show goldens. I had a visiting trainer (from OH I think) who I didn't know and she didn't know anyone, falling on the floor in shock because I looked at her golden and correctly observed that she was a Wynwood. There's several different performance line goldens that are common in our area, but they do not all look the same. 

But back on topic - searching puppy buyers think all goldens look the same. So if their manner of searching for a breeder involves a basic google search, they basically will end up with networking BYB's and never know better.

Alternatively, it's possible that people are trying to price search for goldens. It's amazing to me, but there's people who are pulling teeth over spending 2000 vs 1500. And maybe one of the reasons why they are inquiring about the poor quality breeders that they do... it's about money.

As well, it could be you have a family with like 10 kids under the age of 10 who are looking for a puppy with a very imaginative idea of how life will be with that dog (some people forget that dogs are domesticated animals) - who will have been turned away by every reputable breeder, with good reason. Which leads to them buying from a byb, thinking it's better than buying from a petstore (even though the dogs all come from the same place in most cases). 

Regardless... I've seen so many of those types of inquiries on this forum and so many people recite the line "I just want a pet" line... so best I can say is at least make sure the clearances are all there. That is the bare minimum that people should require. 

Note while I say that... there was a puppy mill put out of business here in Michigan who had full clearances on all her dogs. 

Likewise, I know of a line of goldens where they have a lot of young deaths - full clearances on all the dogs.

Likewise, there are people getting full clearances on MUTTTTTTSSSS. 

Just whittling requirements of quality down to such a base level - it's not any sign that you are getting a good quality puppy.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I agree with this. I couldn't care less about what titles a dog has earned but health and temperament are important. I would pay the same for a dog with good health clearances regardless of titles. Rukie's formal titled name could be Lyric Last Jedi CCP (for earning his champion couch potato) and that was all I wanted.:smile2: although we're still going to try and add CGC
I will add that having a breeder who does Avidog or other activities with the puppies is very worthwhile.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Meant to say, but my other post was too long. 

Good breeders are not just breeding for full clearances. There's a lot of stuff they are trying to keep in what they breed. It's not very different from keeping hybrid roses together and preventing them from going to root stock... 

Heads
Coat
Bone
Pigment
Tail set
Balance/Structure
Color

^^^^ These are a handful of things which I know different people have really high up on their list of things they are trying to maintain in what they breed.

Seems like a lot of breeders who breed what they have - they suffer losses in those areas when not specifically breeding to maintain them.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

DanaRuns said:


> A comment on people wanting a dog that looks like a typical Golden. All my dogs are champion show dogs. They are all bred to the standard. Yesterday, while running 6 of them at a private park, another dog owner asked me what my dogs were mixed with. She didn't recognize them as pure bred Goldens, because they actually look different from all the poorly bred, early spay/neuter Goldens that she usually sees.
> 
> I'm not sure most folks really know what a Golden is supposed to look like.


In my experience, you can't fix ignorance. Or stupidity. Most people with dogs seem to know very little about dogs/dog breeds. Generally, if one doesn't read breed standards and understand them, at least in the most basic sense, then there's no possible way to know what breed is suitable. Picking a breed based on zero actual information is completely idiotic, in my mind. And, yeah, that's harsh, but it's true. People do it ALL the time. People pick breeds (and dogs) because of the way they look - or think they are supposed to look - or because a cool movie with a certain dog breed came out, they but have zero understanding of what the dog was bred for or what its personality will be like, or how trainable it is, or whether its appropriate for families with little kids, or whether it requires someone with experience. 

I'm not going to show or hunt, but I have shown in the past. I still want a dog that conforms to the standard (for reasons beyond being that completely obsessive person that picks apart every aspect of conformation on the regular - my own dog and others. Which - side note- why must I live in an area with a high percentage of "english cream" breeders??? So tired of seeing out of standard dogs with horrible structure). I want my dog to be structurally sound for its intended purpose. I want a dog that will retrieve and enjoys the water, and that has the personality defined by the standard. I know I have to give on some of the structure because I'm not a show person, and that's okay, but I don't want a hack job Golden that half looks like one and never acts like one - because, in my mind, that isn't even a Golden.

As to expanding to recommending breeders who don't compete, maybe so long as they were *formerly* competing. Otherwise, who's to say they are even breeding to the standard? Great, they have clearances, but if they are breeding Goldens that don't look (or act) anything like the standard, then what is their purpose for breeding? My guess? Money. And most people aren't going to be able to determine if a breeder is breeding to the standard, especially if we just determined they don't even know what a Golden is supposed to actually look like. Now, you have to expand your comments for each breeder to cover whether or not their dogs are within standard. If there are decent pictures, maybe you can determine structure, though it's easy to take pics at certain angles to make dogs look better. However, unless you know the dogs, you have zero indication of temperament, instinct, drive, trainability, etc.

Sorry, I'd rather wait half a lifetime for a dog that's bred to standard. But maybe that's just me. Having said that, if I didn't care about what makes a Golden a Golden, and any dog would suit me, I'd honestly go pick out a dog from a shelter. I don't see much difference in picking "any old Golden that remotely resembles a Golden from a random breeder" and a dog at a shelter that needs an equally loving home.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

DanaRuns said:


> Puppy buyers don't want a show dog. They don't want a hunting dog. They don't care about conformation or suitability for original purpose. Structure isn't high on their list. The breed standard means nothing to them. They don't care if the breeder is competing with her dogs. And why should they? All they are looking for is a companion, and until they came here they didn't even know about all that stuff. What they care about is having a generally healthy dog with the famous Golden temperament. If they want anything specific at all it's usually a sex, a color, or a "therapy dog."
> 
> So, this being generally true, perhaps when we recommend breeders to them we should broaden our scope from puppies WE would want to puppies THEY would want. I've seen threads recently where breeders were receiving disapproval because they don't compete. That may be important to us, but it certainly doesn't matter to most puppy buyers. How about we expand our horizons a bit, for their sake? Finding puppies WE would approve of is super hard. Why limit the pool so drastically? Let's _help_ folks find what they are looking for.
> 
> Do you agree or disagree with this?


Honestly, I mostly disagree. Not all, (some are just lazy) but most, of the people who come here looking for help finding a puppy have no idea what they don't know. This forum has an amazing opportunity to educate people on the attributes of a carefully bred Golden (or any purebred dog) and what to look for to try to identify an ethical breeder. If someone cares enough to try to come here and research, I feel strongly that we ought to point them in the direction of the same breeders we would send our own friends or family members to. 

I also will say that people may say that they don't want a show dog or they don't want a hunting dog but they want sure do want a dog that is a good Golden Retriever. They don't realize that what these dogs were originally bred to do as a job is a HUGE part of what makes them such awesome companions. They might not know it, but they DO want a correct dog. 

I am the perfect example of why you should set the bar high. I found my first Golden over 20 years ago by using Atlanta Golden Retriever Club via internet and phone. I hardly even knew about hip clearances. I just wanted a great family dog but I had no idea there was a difference between gun dogs and show dogs. Thanks to the club's fabulous puppy referral person, I ended up with a breeder who trained retrievers for a living and who bred her field lines to a Pekay dog: first 3 generations had 3 Field Trial champions, 2 QAA, a Master Hunter & 2 conformation champions. The puppy I brought home was as healthy and strong as an ox, no allergies, smarter than most people's children and had the drive for birds and water like you wouldn't believe and looked like an athlete. He taught me a heck of a lot about how strong inbred instinct is. He had a great temperament and wanted to please me. He is the dog who showed me that even if I don't ever compete at the highest levels, I want and deserve a rock solid Golden who was bred to retain all the traits that make Goldens so special without sacrificing health or temperament.

I had no idea when I started that I cared so much about a well bred dog, I was lucky that I had some help from people at the club level and on this forum who would teach me what I didn't know. Not every buyer will be as passionate about it as most of us here are, but I'd like to give them all a chance to see the light


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Heh. This is my current show puppy (not really a puppy, he's 16 months old), who I have to show in Bred By this weekend. Just this morning as I was practicing stacking and gaiting him in a park because I never show my own dogs, I got asked if this boy was a mix because "his legs are so short" and "his head is so fat."










The kicker....the guy who asked me owns a Golden Retriever! What the ever lovin'....


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I think there is a LOT of room for breeders who do the core clearances and some DNA... and I would love to refer people to them, whether they compete or not as long as they make good breeding choices. 
That said, if we no longer care about educating these puppy people, our beloved Goldens are going to start looking like another split in the breed- not only will we have conformation dogs, and field types, and I guess I would throw in there obedience dogs, we'll have another segment called Goldens who don't look like proper Goldens. That makes me sad. 
Can a breeder (like the one asked about this week earlier for example) make nice looking puppies even though they have nothing whatever to hone their eye on? Maybe- maybe even probably some of the time.. but I do not think it will be consistent production of correct, and I also do not think their line will improve at all. It doesn't take long indiscriminately breeding to lose the good one has.
And face it- even a show bred puppy probably won't look like a show dog. Pet people use groomers that don't know how to do a Golden and they don't keep their dogs looking like show dogs. .. but most of us w experience can certainly see good breeding regardless of the way the pet people keep their dogs.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

Prism Goldens said:


> Pet people use groomers that don't know how to do a Golden and they don't keep their dogs looking like show dogs.



This. It's the why that eludes me. Goldens are regularly in the top five of the "most popular breed" polls. How is it that the majority of groomers are so clueless?


Also, in regards to DanaRuns' post, maybe we all need to be walking around with pocket versions of the standard to offer to people who ask questions and make comments.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I totally agree with Prism. I've said before the point of showing is to keep the breeder in line with the breed standard and their own style or type they are breeding. My breeder has a very typy look to her goldens which i really like and other breeders tend to have their dogs look a certain way after years and decades of breeding. Similar to what Kate said earlier about Head, Bone, Structure, Coat among other things. I feel without showing and having independent people judging them, breeders would start to stray from the structure and conformation they have made their lines to be. Seeing your owns dogs from generation to generation, you likely wouldn't notice much variance until it was obvious and then how long would it take to get back to where you started then strayed from?


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

usually lurking said:


> This. It's the why that eludes me. Goldens are regularly in the top five of the "most popular breed" polls. How is it that the majority of groomers are so clueless?
> 
> 
> Also, in regards to DanaRuns' post, maybe we all need to be walking around with pocket versions of the standard to offer to people who ask questions and make comments.



HAHA this is why I said I feel I should just have brochures made to keep with me for when I go out with my dog and just save my breath. I think I'd just look like a Jehovah's witness at that point.


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## Jmcarp83 (May 4, 2018)

usually lurking said:


> Prism Goldens said:
> 
> 
> > Pet people use groomers that don't know how to do a Golden and they don't keep their dogs looking like show dogs.
> ...


I feel I contacted MANY who told me they would shave a golden. And I legit said, “I’ll continue looking, thanks.” I scooped out Facebook and looked for Goldens they’ve groomed and cringed. I see popular Social media accounts talking about their dogs being groomed and I wonder what they’re paying for because the ears are long/shaggy and the feet grinch paws. I mean if it’s their preference cool, but it’s just a bath then? 

My breeder is a groomer so I’ve actually been able to show my mobile groomer photos of my puppy’s siblings and said, “This is what I want.” And she understands quite well what I want. And does it. It helped my groomer also had a golden in the past. She comes back in the house looking like a show dog lol. Costs me $120 every 6 weeks but...I’m not willing to compromise her look when I make a mistake trying to do it myself. I did a paw tidy up yesterday since she is at week. They turned out well (phew!). However, no way am I touching the ears. Thankfully never gets that shaggy look but...I can tell it’s not as neat.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Buyers don't care... this is very true for so many. But "nor should they", of course they should care. If these same people spent as much time choosing a breeder as they do on selecting a car or cell phone, we wouldn't be having all these problems in the breed. 

Golden rescues are full all over the country because of people that breed without caring. Doodles are a whole other problem but in some ways it's a result of the same issue. Lack of knowledge or accountability for the puppies they dump on the world... and many times priced higher than a well educated, experience breeder charges for their pups. And I'm a die hard rescue person!

Then these well meaning people want to breed their loving dog with anyone that answers an add for a stud dog. They don't seem to care that the stud dog they own has hip dysplasia. It's no longer 1950 and safe to buy a dog from the neighbor. You might get lucky but you may not. I would prefer to pay a good breeder than to pay the vets and save the heartache.


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## Teresa.mckenna (Jul 29, 2018)

I think it is disrespectful to make these broad statements about puppy owners. I have found them to be educated wanting a well bred dog, and that is how they found me. I would only refer to breeders who make sure that all their dogs have clearances and are sound in structure and temperament and don’t breed to make a living......thus,
These breeders usually compete with their dogs.


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## Teresa.mckenna (Jul 29, 2018)

Yes, the bad grooming just kills me. I think the groomers have the skills but they also don’t know what the correct trim on a Golden should be. Next packet that I send home will include, helpful blown up versions of the correct trim for ears, feet, and hocks with a suggestion to not touch the hair coming off the body. If they live in town I will go to theirs homes and give individual grooming lesson. It just takes baby steps and then and slowly pet people will start seeing what a true Golden should look like....as long as vets will quit the early spay and neutering.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Teresa.mckenna said:


> ...as long as vets will quit the early spay and neutering.


This 100%. Could not agree more. Some of these vets just brow beat people into spaying even when they have legit reasons not to. I just wish vets would be more proactive in keeping their education up. Just seems like so many vets just graduate School and not much afterwards.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Teresa.mckenna said:


> I think it is disrespectful to make these broad statements about puppy owners. I have found them to be educated wanting a well bred dog, and that is how they found me. I would only refer to breeders who make sure that all their dogs have clearances and are sound in structure and temperament and don’t breed to make a living......thus,
> These breeders usually compete with their dogs.


Teresa - have you seen some of the breeders that people inquire about? 

I don't think anyone was making broad statements since there are a lot of people out there who have a good idea what to avoid. Part of that is because people have been telling all that to anyone who asks or even those who never ask questions but might lurk around long enough to listen.... 

But that gets people accused of being snobs - even on this thread.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

For those who think we should only refer buyers to the upper echelon of breeders from whom WE would buy a puppy, let me ask you something. Here's a hypothetical. I'm making up numbers, but the principle remains true. Here we go:

Let's say there are 1000 puppy buyers looking for an ethically bred puppy that is not from a BYB or mill.

Let's say there are 500 puppies available from breeders who breed carefully, do all available testing, and title all their dogs. Breeders WE would buy a puppy from.

That means that 500 puppy buyers aren't going to get a puppy from those breeders. So where will they go? Either: 

(1) we can insist they only buy from the breeders who are now out of puppies, so they won't find one, or 

(2) we can steer them to "lesser" decent breeders -- say, that get the 4 core clearances but don't compete and might not have the quality that our high standards insist on -- or 

(3) we can just watch them run off to puppy mills, backyard breeders, and greeders of various sorts.​
So what's the best option for us and them, 1, 2, or 3?

It's a stone cold fact that there are more buyers looking for ethically bred puppies than there are ethically bred puppies. I think I've mentioned here that for a recent litter I had 134 bona fide buyers for 9 puppies. If you don't like my solution of lowering our sights a bit and referring to breeders who may not breed to as high a standard as we prefer but they do try, what's your solution? Or do you just want to stick to your guns, knowing that there aren't enough puppies to go around? The only solution I can think of is that we broaden the pool of available puppies by referring beyond the "A" tier breeders to the "B" tier, as well.

Do you have a different solution? Let's hear it! 

And I still maintain that the vast majority of inquiries we see in this forum are from people who don't care if the breeder competes, aren't looking for a "show dog" or "hunting dog," and just want a healthy dog.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

I totally understand the issue of supply and demand, which is intensified by the fact we live in a world of instant gratification. Everything is at our fingertips. Amazon deliveries come in two days. Prime now is same day. Information is acquired in seconds. People want puppies just as quickly.

I think for most of us here that love the breed as it's meant to be, we're willing to wait as long as possible and are unwilling to compromise on the integrity of the standard. I get that other people just want a dog right now, even if it isn't *exactly* right, and that it is good enough for their purposes. However, where do you draw the line? Past what point are you unwilling to compromise anymore? What do you do when those breeders that are doing the clearances, but don't have the highest of standards, back off their standards for convenience, or when they don't enforce spay/neuter? I'd be worried that the puppies they breed might sink further down your list into the number three category, when puppy buyers themselves decide they want to make a quick buck. What are these category 2 breeders doing to ensure that their puppies aren't going to end up in some lifetime breeding facility? In my mind, those that have the most invested in protecting the breed are those that put the most into the breed. If you aren't putting anything in, then chances are that you don't care enough about what happens to the breed in the long run, and we'd see a breed split, as Prism referenced. Additionally, how do you identify a situation where someone starts doing clearances to avoid getting called out on a board like this, but the overall intentions remain the same, which is simply to make money as quickly as possible? 

I don't have an answer, but maybe the solution would be to start contacting these people that fall into your second category and help them learn, so that their dogs move towards the standard rather than away? Perhaps by bringing them into the fold, there's an inherent monitoring system brought in. If the most knowledgeable people start a conversation with them, perhaps they'd learn better practices, they'd develop an eye for the breed, learn how to better profile buyers, etc. I'm not certain how you'd mobilize a force to do this, but it seems like it might work, in theory.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

I think that one common problem for puppy buyers is that they put to much emphasis on AKC Registration. They think that if the dog is AKC registered that is enough. It must be good, right??? I know that 20 years ago I myself felt that way. I personally am disappointed with the AKC and it's marketplace advertisements. Many people in my area looking for a puppy don't know about GRCA. There isn't a GRCA group in Delaware and unfortunately we are very close to the puppy mills in PA.

I had a group of people that wanted me to breed Duke. My sons a hunting guide and these people had been on day trips with Duke and my son. I ultimately declined to do it. I'm not a breeder, and I don't really want to be. I do love the breed, and only want what's best for it as a whole. I instead offered to help each of them find what I considered to be a reputable breeder. These people weren't looking for what I look for, but wanted my dog. My dog is 8, he's had years of training, he goes everywhere with me. They all thought he was "just a great Golden". Two of them specifically wanted a hunting dog, like Duke. Duke is a lucky break for our family. His sire is from a great field line, but his dam is a show dog. He doesn't look like your typical field golden.

Of the four people one bought a Golden Doodle, one bought a Golden from a breeder that also breeds doodles, and two bought nicely bred local yellow labs.

The one that bought the Golden from the doodle breeder was the one that got me. I spent hours talking to him about what to look for. He called me one day and sent me pictures of his puppy he had just put a deposit on. It was supposed to be 6 weeks old, but didn't look it to me. I looked up where it came from and immediately called him back. He said "we are tired of waiting, it's AKC registered". He got it and it had parasites. He ended up spending about $1500 in the first two months he had it. He was adamant it was going to be a great hunting dog. This little guy was the most laid back Golden puppy I had ever seen. 

He brought it out for a play date after I got my latest puppy. His dog would have been a good 8 months older then mine. Moe ran circles around this puppy. He thought Moe was the craziest puppy he'd ever seen. He said "are you sure you have a golden"? Moe was swimming, retrieving toys, already healing off leash....

He was just thinking about calling a field trainer and wanted names. I explained that we would work with Moe on all the basics until he was 6 months old, and then our trainer would take him for some specific field training that we didn't feel qualified to do. He said then what do you pay the trainer for? 

I saw him the other day. My trainer is apparently an idiot. He took his dog out and the trainer said he would never make a good candidate for field work. He has an AKC registered Golden and Golden's are naturally field dogs. I don't know how I could have better educated him. I tried. He paid more for his dog then I did. He just didn't want to wait.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I totally get your logic ... I prefer to wait it out. However directing people to breeders that don't show but are doing their best to provide healthy, ethically bred puppies a good alternative. 

Guess my only protest is the price and deception that runs rampid from unethical breeders. It's hard enough to distinguish the good from the bad. Sorry for the car reference but it's the only way I know how to equate my position. If you purchase a car there are several options/features for each model and each level is priced accordingly. Not true for breeders / puppies.

This helps people/consumers to clearly know what they are paying for. How do you do this with puppies / breeders? There is a current post about getting a senior from a highly respected breeder.... highly respected by who? The dog has heartworms for goodness sakes! Clearly the title of Highly respected" is questionable for this breeder. But how are people to know??

So who sets the standards? How can people know the rating system? If poorly bred pups are costing as much if not more for pups from ethical, knowledgeable breeders how do people know? Should the GRCA give breeders a "quality/ethical breeder" rating? Could all this be as simple as go with GRCA (or breed club) members only? When AKC allows unethical breeders to post pups on their Marketplace it certainly doesn't help the situation. If AKC is for the "purebred" dog they should step it up a notch so people know who is good and who is not. This could be as simple as refusing to post if they do not follow the breed Coe or a breed club member. 

I understand what you are saying but to do this there has to be some clear guidelines and the governing parties need to be onboard to support it. So many people are trying to find the good breeders and need a simple way to know what they are spending the bucks on. How do we do this? But do agree with a "b" level for getting a pup from someone doing clearances but not showing. But again, where are the guidelines for what makes certain breeders "A" and "B" quality? and where do they find this info?


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

*Dana, we're glad you are back!*

You provide the most interesting post, something the GRF has been lacking lately. Welcome back!!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

puddles everywhere said:


> You provide the most interesting post, something the GRF has been lacking lately. Welcome back!!


Thanks.  Don't expect me to be around too long. There are a couple people who would love to get rid of me and are looking for any opportunity. Which kinda sounds like my family, too. LOL! :laugh:


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## Jmcarp83 (May 4, 2018)

This is the first dog I’ve ever spent the money on registering with the AKC...because I plan to put titles on her for obedience and rally. I’m so over their “emails” because it’s just sell sell sell. And 90% of the AKC ads are Amish people in my 50 mile radius. But people assume AkC is behind it so it’s alllllll good.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

usually lurking said:


> I think for most of us here that love the breed as it's meant to be, we're willing to wait as long as possible



Worst typo ever. That should read "as long as necessary."


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

DanaRuns said:


> Thanks.  Don't expect me to be around too long. There are a couple people who would love to get rid of me and are looking for any opportunity. Which kinda sounds like my family, too. LOL! :laugh:


along with thanks I would love a 'hahah!!' button (for this post) and a 'sad' button.. probably also for this post. Because the perspective of involved people even if they are considered...abrasive?... is a good thing in any forum. And on this topic- I think yes, mostly they do not care- because it is hard to understand our language and because it feels somewhat impossible to do well,but should they? yes. They should care.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

If only there were a bunch of breeders with full and verifiable health certifications regardless of if they show or not. 

This seems to be a solution that is actually not very available. 

Just check the number of breeder who checkmark the box indicating full health testing as recommended by the breed club (GRCA) on the AKC Marketplace for your area. How few actually have any of that is beyond disappointing and maddening.


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## SusanS (Jul 23, 2018)

I am just a puppy buyer who has learned so much through this forum and this particular post has intrigued me as well. My first Golden was through a newspaper ad, no knowledge whatsoever of clearances, etc. We were blessed with having him for 13 years. Now, as I wait patiently as we go through different breeders, litters, it has been the learning journey that has been satisfying until we welcome a new Golden into our home. Thank you for your desire to teach and keeping the CoE standards. Knowledge is important. I will never obtain the knowledge you all have, but I do desire to keep on learning.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

I can totally empathize with people wanting to find an ethically bred family companion. The ratio of good breeders to bad breeders is not equal...and I can say that I was looking/speaking to breeders for a *year *before we were even put on a wait list. It was TOUGH to find a breeder because from the outside they appeared to be doing everything right and then turned out to be a dead end either because one of the dog was lacking a clearance, or they got bad reviews on this forum or they were using their own stud. Now, to be honest most average puppy buyers would not have even had the stamina to wait like I did.

I know for myself each time I came to this forum while I was searching for a puppy I learned something new and my criteria for what I was looking for in a breeder and in a puppy changed, and I would cross breeders off my list. 

Do you think that AKC should have more stringent requirements for handing out titles like 'bred with HEART' or even allowing just anyone to advertise on the AKC marketplace? That seems like the most logical place to start...because it seems like having an AKC endorsement can trick puppy buyers into thinking they've made a good decision..


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## 1oldparson (Mar 5, 2013)

Guilty pet owner here just to offer perspective from me, can’t speak for anyone else. Some of this may be generational and therefore outdated. But first, thank you Dana for this topic. I’ve had dogs almost my entire life (so far). Ginger is our third golden and the first of any AKC registered. Before our Goldens, most were mutts from “accidental” breedings from friends or neighbors. We just wanted another member of the family. No breed preference and generally made the decision based on the appearance and temperament of the dam and a guess as to the sire. They pretty much all worked. Our first golden, and first purebred, came from a backyard breeder, she lived 14 years and had great temperament. Our second golden was a year old stray who lived 12 years and had great temperament. Within a week after she died, our house was too empty and I needed another dog, a golden. I searched online and contacted the AKC for a list of breeders with puppies. To me, AKC was a stamp of approval. Prices were shown and I went with what I considered reasonable. We visited the breeder (whom I’ll call a hobby breeder), saw the sire and dam both of whom displayed sweet temperaments and picked out our pup. So far, at six years old, she’s healthy and has a sweet disposition...now. But as a puppy, she was a bitey terror. That’s when I found GRF, to learn how to survive Cujo. That’s when I learned about clearances and more. I still don’t know much about breed standards and probably wouldn’t know a well bred golden if it bit me (not that it would). But I love my dog and her sweet disposition. I want her healthy for her quality of life and so I can enjoy her company as long as possible. Since I’m almost 69, she may be my last dog. I know now that Ginger is the result of someone doing something right at some point. Maybe it was generations ago and there’s always the element of chance but I have the dog I needed. Would I do something different now that I’ve found GRF? Yes, but I didn’t know about you then. Hope this helps some.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Emmdenn said:


> because from the outside they appeared to be doing everything right and then turned out to be a dead end either because one of the dog was lacking a clearance, or they got bad reviews on this forum *or they were using their own stud*.


Can I say something here? And I know what you mean, but making sure that people are not confusing 2 different things...

For every breeder out there that I know of who produces some big time litters who end up going to Westminster and beyond.... they also produce litters where they use their own studs. If they do, it's not a sign that they are a bad breeder. 

To be honest, I wonder if some dogs would ever get used as studs - if it weren't for the breeders using them for their own girls and basically proving them???? 

Only reason why some breeders would avoid using their own stud dogs with their girls - would be if they were all related or the same lines. 

The negative bit about some breeders using their own studs, etc... this comes about because of people who decide they want to become breeders and go about it the way farmers would (buying a male and female for breeding). It's how they select dogs for breeding that makes it a bad thing. And there are breeders out there who basically operate like chicken farms. You got your fleet of hens and your rooster. :laugh:



> Do you think that AKC should have more stringent requirements for handing out titles like 'bred with HEART' or even allowing just anyone to advertise on the AKC marketplace? That seems like the most logical place to start...because it seems like having an AKC endorsement can trick puppy buyers into thinking they've made a good decision..


Meaning requiring clearances?

I'm going to be pragmatic here and tell you straight that would never work.

Because we are looking at all this from a golden retriever breed perspective. In general our breed is very good when it comes to code of ethics and how people follow it w/r to health clearances and linebreeding/inbreeding. 

Other breeds it's astounding how LITTLE they do when it comes to health clearances or waiting until the dogs are adults before breeding and even inbreeding/linebreeding, other breeds can be very casual about it. 

AKC is not a breed club that handles those things - or to be exact, they are a club of very many breed clubs. The breed clubs need to be better responsible and involved - as best as they are able. <= And I have no idea what that would mean for GRCA or other breed clubs. 

Like what, should they create a minimal requirement certification for breeding dogs? Minimally requiring hip/elbow clearances? <= Some high up people in the breed would have holy temper tantrum COWS, because there are some big names who will make decisions to breed dogs who failed hips or elbows on the basis that everything else about those dogs is worthy of breeding. 

Otherwise, yah. I think AKC shouldn't even have a marketplace to sell dogs. That's where people are getting the wrong impression of what AKC is and what AKC does.


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## David Pearson (Aug 30, 2018)

I do not care about breed for Show/Conformation. I care if the puppy heathy and good temperament. My first Golden came from a couple who allow their Golden breed with a friend's golden. I got Blondie at 2 years because they had to many animals to feed on the farm. They did a good job with that one litter, Blondie live for 13 1/2 years. Her mother came from a documented line but the father did not. 

I often wonder if all the Goldens are breed for conformation, are we killing a good gene that gives longevity. I remember reading a report where the breeding for Chocolate labs introduced a bad gene that causes the chocolate to have a shorter life span compare to other labs. Could this be happening to the Golden Retrievers.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

David Pearson said:


> I do not care about breed for Show/Conformation. I care if the puppy heathy and good temperament. My first Golden came from a couple who allow their Golden breed with a friend's golden. I got Blondie at 2 years because they had to many animals to feed on the farm. They did a good job with that one litter, Blondie live for 13 1/2 years. Her mother came from a documented line but the father did not.
> 
> I often wonder if all the Goldens are breed for conformation, are we killing a good gene that gives longevity. I remember reading a report where the breeding for Chocolate labs introduced a bad gene that causes the chocolate to have a shorter life span compare to other labs. Could this be happening to the Golden Retrievers.


I truly hope that you don’t think all show breeders are breeding just to win in the ring. I would like to think that most want long lived dogs and do study pedigrees extensively. But, it is finding the right stud dog as a whole. A dog can live 13 years, but littermates die at 8-9. You also don’t want a long lived dog to have other genetic issues. I have also found you still have early deaths in lines where you would not expect it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

David Pearson said:


> I often wonder if all the Goldens are breed for conformation, are we killing a good gene that gives longevity.


David - Assuming you are not trying to make a point that dogs need to be poorly or randomly bred to preserve healthy genes...

It depends on the breeder. 

If a breeder is breeding dogs with blinders on, ignoring what's behind the dogs, what's been going on.... yea, they are going to be creating a nightmare for themselves. I'm not going into more details than that - but I know of about 3 different breeders who have bred themselves into a deep hole and they basically have to switch gears and bring new stuff in. Or they probably will have to. 

This is not just conformation. It's other sports especially. There's a lot of stuff you don't talk about online....  

Otherwise, I am only too happy to bring up the example of my 2 neighbors yet again. 

Both decided to get golden pups around the same time and each picked a pup from the same litter. 

Neighbor to the left took a girlie home and she lived to be almost 18 years old. She was taller than my boys, dark red, did not like other dogs, and as time went she went out less and less. She had to be put to sleep because she could not get up anymore. Her legs were too weak. She was otherwise very healthy. Fed dog chow, vaccines regularly, no real exercise besides running around the yard and going up north every weekend in summer. 

Neighbor to the right took a boy home. He lived between 6 and 9 years. He died from cancer. Neighbor walks her dogs religiously, etc. 

When you are talking about longevity - some people have very good luck with their individual dogs and are convinced that their breeders did better than others. But this is ignoring the fact that their dog drastically outlived all her littermates. 

At golden specialties - you have veterans going out into the ring to show in sweepstakes. It's the sweetest thing to see these old dogs work it. I'm thinking about bringing a camera with me at the end of May to record maybe just to share what it looks like. To me, that's the heart of the breed - especially since it's owners or co-owners handling them generally.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Megora said:


> Otherwise, yah. I think AKC shouldn't even have a marketplace to sell dogs. That's where people are getting the wrong impression of what AKC is and what AKC does.


Yes! I know that it would never happen *sigh*, I guess I was coming from the buyer's perspective of "Oh this litter is AKC registered so it must be good". I honestly cannot believe some of the breeders/litters that I have seen advertised on AKC marketplace that are basically puppy farms. Maybe the marketplace feature should be the first thing to go....

If AKC would direct all puppy referrals to local GRCA clubs it would at _least_ cut out some of the breeders who have the AKC status but are just breeding for profit and not health testing.


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## David Pearson (Aug 30, 2018)

Kate: Correct I am not talking about random breeding. I think we need to look at the lines with good long longevity in general. The Goldens in the 1970s lived 16 to 17 years average . 

Not sure if it is the genes or food. I do think we are headed the right way, as being aware. 

Wonder if the two neighbors feed different food etc... 

Is the Morris Animal Foundation Golden Retriever Lifetime Study still running studies? 

I do think a lot us look for a family dog first. I would try to be ethically family dog breeder, but I know how much work and time it takes. I do love the Golden Retriever breed.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

David Pearson said:


> The Goldens in the 1970s lived 16 to 17 years average.


Probably not. 

I've heard people say dogs used to live much longer, but that's not visible when you look up the pedigrees. The average back then was the same as now. 

See attached pic.

This shows a glimpse of the 70's from the most common pedigrees for show, field, and I grabbed a random BYB type pedigree (including the very common gaps of "unknowns").

Show pedigree is buried far behind a dog who lived to be 15 years old.
Field pedigree is buried far behind a dog who lived to be 12 years old.
And who knows with the other dog.


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## Jmcarp83 (May 4, 2018)

David Pearson said:


> I do not care about breed for Show/Conformation. I care if the puppy heathy and good temperament. My first Golden came from a couple who allow their Golden breed with a friend's golden. I got Blondie at 2 years because they had to many animals to feed on the farm. They did a good job with that one litter, Blondie live for 13 1/2 years. Her mother came from a documented line but the father did not.
> 
> I often wonder if all the Goldens are breed for conformation, are we killing a good gene that gives longevity. I remember reading a report where the breeding for Chocolate labs introduced a bad gene that causes the chocolate to have a shorter life span compare to other labs. Could this be happening to the Golden Retrievers.


I have had two chocolate labs. One died at almost 8 of hemangiosarcoma and I have one who turned 13 in February. I lost a yellow lab to hemangiosarcoma at 5. It’s a crap shoot. My golden died of lymphoma just shy of 11. So not sure there’s really a correlation on chocolate labs. I can tell you no one put thoughtful care into my 13 yo labs breeding. I just wanted her out of where she was.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I don't think dogs are dying sooner now than then either. 
What we do have now as opposed to then is far better communication/information and veterinary care. As well, people are more willing to spend $$ on their dogs now. There was no option back then for, say, hemangio care. Now there is early diagnosis, some prophylactic splenic removal, etc.. I remember in the 70's a lovely bitch who probably had hemangio but who could tell ,there was no vet school nearby and there were no non-human MRi's or CTs available. Dr Google wasn't available then to help owners decide whether their dog had something needing a vet, and the vets were not specialists. In the last 25 years, almost every specialty has begun requiring an internship and residency as well as passing boards which were not available then either. In the last 10 years, reproduction and pathology have both followed this path where 10 years ago, one did not have to do those extra 4 years... just take the boards and pass. 
There are certainly more pedigrees now that are 'high roller' type pedigrees- bred for winning regardless of the risks w the SA dogs etc, but even that goes back to the internet's influence. Dogs are less regional now. My second breeding I shipped my bitch across a few states to breed- but that was only because I knew of the dog via being involved. 
I forget which website recently we saw here that advertised a bitch living into her 20's if I recall right- that was wrong I am sure- I think all along it has been average 11.5 YO with outliers... a week from today my lovely Gracie will be 16 years old. I think my own dogs are living longer. But like everyone else's they get better veterinary care now than they did in the 70's when the only flea and tick was brewer's yeast, and when omg we finally had filarabits daily for heartworm...


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

David Pearson said:


> The Goldens in the 1970s lived 16 to 17 years average .



Not the one I had. :frown2:
She was born in 1970 and lived to 10. 

The one I had born in 1980 lived to 9. He died of cancer.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Another thing we have today vs 40-50 years ago = easy access to cameras and owners who snap pictures of their dogs all the time. 

Any champion dogs today - there's no mystery of what they looked like because if you can't find them by searching for the dog's name, you can go onto FB and hunt for the owner. IF they are younger than a certain age, it's basically GUARANTEED you will find pictures of their dogs!!!!

https://photobucket.com/gallery/htt...hildBoEarnest80NAinMaine_zpscdbc99e6.jpg.html

^^^ Assuming the description of the picture is right, the dog on the far left is Tigathoe Kiowa II (one of my favorite all time dogs). 

In the field type pedigree I shared, he had been bred to CH Topbrass Topeka of Sunstream. I have been able to find pictures of the pup they had contributing to that pedigree, but unable to find any pictures of Topbrass Topeka....! So frustrating.

On the topic - probably funny-not-funny thing to share... 

My mom is always telling me dogs were much healthier and lived longer when she was growing up. They had no cancer, etc... Her family DID have a dog who needed to be put down because of rabies (this was in the 50's), but that was the most notable thing as far as any illness family dogs experienced. My grandma was kinda like me - always kept dogs, multiple dogs, etc. When I asked my mom how long they lived though - my mom had no idea. Her memories of the dogs back then are pretty fuzzy. She remembers interacting with them and her mom doting on them, but pretty much my impression is it wasn't the same "it's my dog's birthday and he's this old" kind of stuff as we do now.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Megora said:


> ........
> 
> 
> At golden specialties - you have veterans going out into the ring to show in sweepstakes. It's the sweetest thing to see these old dogs work it. I'm thinking about bringing a camera with me at the end of May to record maybe just to share what it looks like. To me, that's the heart of the breed - especially since it's owners or co-owners handling them generally.



One thing that will generally bring a tear to almost every eye in the house AND applause that quickens the step of the dog is


... Survivors, Seniors and Retired agility runs .... Yes, the bars may be low but to see those dogs working it and the smiles on their faces is wonderful. If you get a chance to see one, make the effort 


Here is picture (collage) I had made of my Casey's final run == he died in his sleep just weeks later .. his breeding was not exactly what most would be looking for but I would certainly consider 13.25 cancer free years a blessing.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Oh Sharon - that made me teary eyed. <B

I'm so grateful that I entered Jacks in obedience the very last golden specialty in 2017. I still have that memory of him bursting out there all doggy joy at my side. I hug that memory very tight. I hope that seeing that old dear doing the obedience thing made people smile. I know the judge and stewards were. He got a hug from the judge...


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

David Pearson said:


> The Goldens in the 1970s lived 16 to 17 years average .


That is not correct. Goldens have never, throughout the Breeds history, had an "Average Lifespan" of 16 to 17 years. The average life expectancy was, has been and still is between 10 and 15 years. 


My dogs lifespans typically fall into the range of Super Longevity for a Golden, however even they don't "average" 16 or 17 years.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I don't have any technical data to support anything, simply my opinion on age.... goldens or dogs in general.

The dogs I had as a child lived into their mid teens but you must remember that in 1950 they had just begun to offer commercial dog food and pickins were slim  It was the beginning of "convenience" foods. There were no fast food joints on every corner leftovers were healthier and kids played with their dogs outside for hours at a time. Food in general was healthier, not so many preservatives, genetically modified or salmonella exposure. LOL and gas was .25 a gal!

There was no heartworm prevention because there were no heartworms. Dogs didn't get flea / tick preventive and yearly shots pretty much consisted of Rabies and maybe distemper.... no flu shots, or bordetella and the many other poisons we give out pups. Some good some bad but none of this was available 60 yrs ago.

So while medical progress has helped all of us to live longer and learn, I can't help but think all this medical advancement has also created some problems as well. You also have to remember that communications were limited... so if dogs lived 20 yrs, who would know beside his limited family? Progress??

I could be wrong but pretty sure no one has discovered the cause for cancer yet, not sure you can blame this on breeders or pure bred dogs in general. If you want to help with the mystery of cancer in goldens, donate a sample for research.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Puddles, while you're taking all those things into account, you should probably also take into account the fact that herbicides, pesticides, hormones, antibiotics, and other chemicals are ubiquitous now. So many more places are sprayed with weed killers, pest killers, chemical fertilizers, etc., all of which have an impact on dog health, particularly through increased cancer. Assuming _arguendo_ that you are correct in principle if not in number, that dogs of old lived longer on average, the chemical environment we live in probably has a lot to do with it. Your average bag of kibble is a chemical, hormonal and antibiotic holocaust. Dogs constantly have their noses in grass, plants, dirt, etc., and all those chemicals get into their systems through their noses and because they lick their paws.

I don't think there is necessarily some genetic bottleneck that is causing Goldens to live shorter lives. I think they live as long now as they ever have, and to the extent there is any reduction in longevity it probably has more to do with our increasingly toxic environment than anything else.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Exactly, couldn't agree more. The world in general is just to different to try and compare what used to be with what is today.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

DanaRuns said:


> A comment on people wanting a dog that looks like a typical Golden. All my dogs are champion show dogs. They are all bred to the standard. Yesterday, while running 6 of them at a private park, another dog owner asked me what my dogs were mixed with. She didn't recognize them as pure bred Goldens, because they actually look different from all the poorly bred, early spay/neuter Goldens that she usually sees.
> 
> I'm not sure most folks really know what a Golden is supposed to look like.


That is so true!


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## 1oldparson (Mar 5, 2013)

DanaRuns said:


> I'm not sure most folks really know what a Golden is supposed to look like.


That’s why people like me need people like those on GRF who are dedicated to preserving and improving the entire breed. I’ll never take my dog hunting or do agility or obedience, but all the capabilities of the breed produced the dog I and so many others love. I love my dog but I wouldn’t have her without people like you and many others.


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## eeerrrmmm1 (Apr 15, 2018)

Megora said:


> Some high up people in the breed would have holy temper tantrum COWS, because there are some big names who will make decisions to breed dogs who failed hips or elbows on the basis that everything else about those dogs is worthy of breeding.


As exactly the kind of pet owner the OP described with no clue about the show/breeding world, that's really interesting. I wonder what the average percentage of offspring with dysplasia is from a breeding like that. From what I've read, about 20% of Goldens in general are dysplastic. If you get a puppy from parents w/ clearances, there's still about a 12% risk that they'll be dysplastic. Inheritance of physical traits is a tricky thing that is poorly understood but typically disease inheritance is a bit more predictable, unfortunately, dysplasia is a structural issue that causes a disease process and that would fall back under the physical traits category making its inheritance unpredictable. So I guess the average really wouldn't mean much. One dog could have a really strong inheritance pattern for their hip structure and another may not.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

eeerrrmmm said:


> As exactly the kind of pet owner the OP described with no clue about the show/breeding world, that's really interesting. I wonder what the average percentage of offspring with dysplasia is from a breeding like that. From what I've read, about 20% of Goldens in general are dysplastic. If you get a puppy from parents w/ clearances, there's still about a 12% risk that they'll be dysplastic. Inheritance of physical traits is a tricky thing that is poorly understood but typically disease inheritance is a bit more predictable, unfortunately, dysplasia is a structural issue that causes a disease process and that would fall back under the physical traits category making its inheritance unpredictable. So I guess the average really wouldn't mean much. One dog could have a really strong inheritance pattern for their hip structure and another may not.


Interesting. I have read information that had linked/targeted a study taking about how in some circles, there are vets and research vets that feel hip dysplasia isn't a hereditary issue, especially to the degree that most think, but comes from the mycotoxins found in grains in the dry kibble and this occurs while in the womb. It's the food the bitch eats while pregnant. That a gene such as one that would cause hereditary hip dysplasia would be irradicated by natural selection. Young dogs with it would become prey and therefore the gene gets removed from the gene pool. I can see this to a point but either way I would never ignore hip clearances. This is why I don't worry about a fair rating on hips. Some freak over it. As long as they pass I'm good.

It is the type of mycotoxins that were found in the diamond pet food recall back in 2007,I believe in was Aflatoxin. There are always minute amounts of mycotoxins in grains, there is just a level that they deem safe so anything under those level they let slide through.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> That a gene such as one that would cause hereditary hip dysplasia would be irradicated by natural selection. Young dogs with it would become prey and therefore the gene gets removed from the gene pool.


If we were talking about wild animals, this posit would be a reasonable one but we are not. Our dogs are not impressed upon by natural selection. We decide which animals to breed for the most part and we impose our desires on them, as far as coat, or pigment or whatever- so not knowing what alleles are responsible for a likelihood of developing HD we may also be selecting for that. ED I am 100% certain is genetic. HD is probably a polygenic scenario, and not so much 'will have' but 'is predisposed for' HD with environmental factors playing into whether it actually develops.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> If we were talking about wild animals, this posit would be a reasonable one but we are not. Our dogs are not impressed upon by natural selection. We decide which animals to breed for the most part and we impose our desires on them, as far as coat, or pigment or whatever- so not knowing what alleles are responsible for a likelihood of developing HD we may also be selecting for that. ED I am 100% certain is genetic. HD is probably a polygenic scenario, and not so much 'will have' but 'is predisposed for' HD with environmental factors playing into whether it actually develops.





I agree I don't believe it myself totally but they source they got it from was I believe one of these universities K State, Purdue, U of Penn I can't remember which, this was back from 10 or 12 years ago I read it. Not to mention you're talking about domesticated dogs which they've only been domesticated for 4,000 years (very small percentage of time)compared to the grand scheme of things on how long dogs have been around.


There is no doubt about the mycotoxins though. This is a fact and is in a LOT of grain, specifically corn. Most dog food companies test teh grain batches directly from the truck before they are unloaded into the silos and they turn away TONS of grains a year. It's not a topical contaminate but it grows inside the corn kernel so it much be lab tested.


Breeders breed to reduce the chance of issues with hips but there may very well be another underlying cause. Natural selection isn't about being impressed upon, it's the weeding out of a gene over many thousands or years. That's the theory. You can be certain it's 100% genetic but I would have to say it may not be 100% genetic when there can be underlying causes like mycotoxins.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hmm.... I don't believe HD comes from diet - unless via rapid growth and malnutrition. 

Types of breeders I was talking about - these are the ones who may breed dogs who have unilateral hip dysplasia, or elbow dysplasia. One in particular was so belligerent to a puppy owner who had to have surgery on grade 3 ED. Puppy owner complained to the breeder when she saw the breeder was still breeding the mom who had bilateral elbow dysplasia. Breeder's excuse was this dog was titled in field and clearly an active and sound dog. Basically blowing off any objections to breeding dogs when there is a problem in one of the parents and proven to be a problem with puppies. 


Regarding heredity and natural selection -


Was ironically looking at something recently... was talking to somebody who was going a little nuts against purebred breeding, AKC clubs, breeders, people wanting purebred dogs. This person was not as nuts as other people (that don't like dogs and want to see few to none dogs in the world around them - and they basically think dogs as a human invention is an abomination, and these are people who want to go out hugging lions and wolves or stupid stuff like that). 

Anyway - the person I was talking to was a lot more reasonable. She's somebody that likes goldens but she doesn't like breeders. She's the kind of person that has "adopt don't shop" stickers all over her car....

I shared the attached collection of pics with her.

All except one pic comes from Detroit (I'm pretty sure, based on my google search) which has a huge stray and feral dog population. The other pic comes from China (I think) and a chick who takes care of thousands of stray/feral dogs there.

My point was natural selection with dogs isn't something that we as dog owners would prefer. This includes structure and health + looks. A lot of the more aggressive or independent/dominant type breeds do better than submissive ones when fending for themselves. Those dominant breeds have dominant looks which you see no matter where the stray population is. 

The pic shows what nature selects for in dogs. It's not the cuddly family dog that is extremely dependent on their owners for everything. Breeds like golden retrievers would go extinct if there were no breeders selectively breeding them to be everything goldens should be. 

The types of people who are OK with that - these are people who hate dogs. They pretend to be all beating heart about the welfare of animals, but I guarantee these are the types like a weirdo neighbor of ours who is convinced that people are bringing their dogs to pee all over their their sparse lawn (LOL). We have clay soil for the most part around here and it's not conducive for easy lawn growing. So I get their frustration, but quite frankly the smell about their yard is probably coming from cats spraying.

This neighbor has been known to sit in his car at the end of the long driveway and wait to catch a dog walker letting their dog potty any where near their yard. 

A funny-not-funny experience was walking my dogs near his property when he and his wife were coming up the street. It was dark + no sidewalks around here + people drive fast even in the neighborhood where I walk. I immediately stepped onto their driveway to wait for them to drive past. Holy crow, that guy was shrieking about me walking my dogs onto his property just to potty them. <= This crazy man also has put hot wire up around his property to keep dogs out? I have no idea. We do not have a stray dog population and people keep their dogs and kids on the road. 

People like that man would be happy if there were no more domesticated dogs in the world. I guarantee he thinks all dogs already look the same, no differentiation between breeds. *insert eye roll*

ETA - oh btw. All those people importing rescue dogs from overseas? They could be doing MORE to rescue dogs close to home. These are what street dogs actually look like. These are abandoned, stray, and even more on the streets type dogs in a city where the system is corrupt and people don't even want to have these dogs picked up by animal control because that's a death sentence for the dogs. I don't know if this is still the case, but there's supposedly 50K strays in Detroit alone.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

David Pearson said:


> The Goldens in the 1970s lived 16 to 17 years average .


No they didn't. Breed lifespan has not increased or decreased dramatically since ever. Go rifle through k9data.


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## benelatuit (Jul 22, 2018)

*Breeder rating standard?*

I have scanned through this thread with interest. 

As a pet owner who has loved my two Goldens, I basically agree with OP's opening statement. I have tried to learn from this site regarding choosing a breeder for my next dog, but it's pretty easy to get bogged down in the weeds here and frankly sometimes hard to tell what is professional expertise and what is sniping at other breeders. 

While it would no doubt be quite a can of worms to create (who could be trusted to do it without bias?), if there were a reliable and standardized "report card" for breeders based on their adherence to getting clearances and breed standards and the quality of their facility etc etc it would sure be helpful for potential buyers.

Even just on this site it would be helpful to list breeders with a standardized template that includes the above info as well as whether they show or not, how long they have been breeding and other relevant info, it would be so helpful for potential buyers.


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## David Pearson (Aug 30, 2018)

My source for the Golden Retriever life span is base on articles about the Morris Animal Foundation study. After hearing comments that is not correct, I am wondering about those sources. 

https://breedingbusiness.com/study-golden-retriever-lifespan-shortening/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...uncover-cancer-plagues-golden-retrievers.html

I just emailed Morris Animal Foundation, I am very interesting to seeing a reference to an official paper on the subject. Maybe the article sources blur the facts.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I'm very familiar w MAF's study- was in on the meeting w Morris when they presented to GRCA their plans, and have several puppies (now dogs) in the program... but I do not see where that headline attributed as the reason for the lifetime study is originating from. 
It has a sensational feel to it... and I honestly do not believe there is any 'real' study that shows lifetimes have shortened. Let us know if you get any citations from them!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

benelatuit said:


> As a pet owner who has loved my two Goldens, I basically agree with OP's opening statement. I have tried to learn from this site regarding choosing a breeder for my next dog, but it's pretty easy to get bogged down in the weeds here and frankly sometimes hard to tell what is professional expertise and what is sniping at other breeders.


Weigh what people say based on the actual specifics.

Meaning, that while there is politics in the dog world between good breeders, it is kept private. You will not see anyone posting any of that on this forum. 

What people criticize on this forum are the very basics of what should be there in breeding dogs before the breeding takes place. 

Full clearances.

Hips/elbows need to be done at 24 months. 

Heart needs to be done at 12 months (or after).

Eyes need to be done every year or the very least before the breeding takes place. 

All should be posted on OFA. 


Eyes are checked every year - and this is a reason why people get annoyed about having to send eyes in to OFA (yearly). So they might hold the paperwork and have it available.

Everything else SHOULD be posted on OFA.

^^^^ This is all repeated over, and over, and over... and people should know it all by now. They shouldn't even ask about breeders if they do their own research on OFA. 

OFA is pretty easy to check. You just need the registered names of the parents. This brings up not just the clearance of the dogs in question, but you can also see a "pedigree" behind the dogs on OFA - if these dogs came from very good stock. 

Many of us will NOT buy a puppy if there isn't at least 3 generations of full clearances behind that pup. 

Others have reached a point where they know somebody is scraping the bottom of the barrel anyway and won't be approved for a puppy from a breeder.... and they just check for clearances on the parents or say that is sufficient. 




> While it would no doubt be quite a can of worms to create (who could be trusted to do it without bias?), if there were a reliable and standardized "report card" for breeders based on their adherence to getting clearances and breed standards and the quality of their facility etc etc it would sure be helpful for potential buyers.


There is already such a thing. It's called breeder referrals. Very minimally, breeders must show the parents have full clearances before getting a litter listed with a breed club. 

Go to GRCA and check for nearest clubs to where you live... contact the breed referrals at these clubs.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

David Pearson said:


> My source for the Golden Retriever life span is base on articles about the Morris Animal Foundation study. After hearing comments that is not correct, I am wondering about those sources.


Bullet points at start of both articles are the same wording, etc.... which to me means they came from the same source. What I would probably ask is what that source was - and request backup for that. 

My belief is somebody was interviewed and expressed the opinion based on limited evidence that dogs are only living 9-10 years tops and dogs lived to be 17 years ago.

K9Data - is a limited view on dogs in the world both back then and today. You are primarily only seeing dogs owned by breeders and active owners (compete in other sports). Dogs owned by breeders and active owners are more likely to be kept trim and in the best of shape, kept up to date on vaccines and other healthy preventives, so they may live longer than their littermates. But as it is, that database provides a very good glimpse at full pedigrees of dogs. 

When I lost my Danny many years ago (he was almost 13) - everyone I knew was losing their 12 year old dogs. Losing Jacks at almost age 11 was horrific, because that (to me) was a shortened life of an otherwise extremely healthy and gutsy little dog. This was made worse by the fact that I chose to put him to sleep rather than see him diminish further. He could have gotten to age 11, but I didn't have the heart to see him struggling or putting him through hell. 

Age 11-12, I think based on everyone I know (I know a lot of people in the active golden world - it's a small world) - it's a good average. And it's always been right around there for male goldens.

Bitches may live longer - primarily because they are smaller dogs than the boys. But even there 12-15 is a typical average right now.

The GRLS is supposed to study 3000 golden retrievers for their entire lifetime and basically collect data for 15 or so years from the start of the study. The first dogs signed up in 2012 are only 7 years old. We won't know what the common longevity for these dogs is for another 10 years. 

I feel a little bad in some ways, but I dropped out of the study a couple years ago. And my dog is very healthy, full clearances, no skin or gut issues, and so on. But the exam visits were almost $300 (and rising in cost every year) and were almost unbearable for my dog because the vet would physically drag him away every year. 

I could have switched vets while continuing to participate in the study, however the questionnaire made me uncomfortable or frustrated with the pointlessness. Primarily because for owners the focus was 90% on behavior of the dog (who bleeping cares about that with a study supposed to be focused on health). The questions regarding food and exercise - I could have lied on those. Likewise, I responded "unknown" for a lot of environmental things (house pipes, water quality, etc).


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## David Pearson (Aug 30, 2018)

Kate, I will let you know how the foundation study replies. I bet you are correct, they were quoting somebody who was just giving an opinion. I did not find any numbers on the foundation site.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I think it is helpful to buyers if they do care about the breeder's accomplishments. Not caring leaves them prey to English Cremes, drifting to doodles, and dogs with nervous iffy temperaments or iffy conformation that leads to pain. No matter how titled the parent dogs, there are going to be a profusion of pet pups in the litters ( unless there is that rare and spectacular "nick" ). Many breeders of highly titles dogs even simply prefer loving pet homes. My area of the country is crazy too- with breeders of non titled dogs who have fine clearances charging far higher prices than those working hard at showing and in obedience at a high level etc. Pricing can be a head scratcher. I personally would neither buy nor sell a puppy for an exorbitant price bc they are living things and can have health issues despite best laid plans and bc I never want to price pups out of wonderful, normal homes. I think it is worthwhile to seek a pet puppy from titled parents and a breeder who is in some way standing shoulder to shoulder with peers. It is useful as one of several measuring sticks.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Recently I have been recruited to assist pet home people to find pups (labs and goldens those are my breeds) I do this out of the kindness of my heart, and I do not want unsuspecting people to get caught. 



I make a POINT to educate the buyer why they care even if all they want is a pet. Clearances for health are a must, but if you want a quiet, steady tempered pup, you still need to look at breeders who have titled their dogs. Maybe they have a litter that the mom is untitled, pupp price would probably reflect that, but that breeder KNOWS the differences in the temperament. If you went to a "pet" only breeder, they would probably not know the difference in high drive or active puppy. There is a big difference. 



I have friend who got a lab, she wanted drive (not over the top drive) we knew the stud owner and respected the dog. We also knew she was getting a pup from the litter. My friend ended up with a dog with WAY too much drive, she could not exercise him to a happy place. He was so uncomfortable in his skin, completely anxious without anyway of giving him an outlet, believe me she tried, agility, field, obedience. He ended up on high dose of Prozac, and he is now a happy house dog, but she can't take him anywhere or he comes unglued. What if she were a pet home?? 



I talked to a highly respected/qualified trainer who has taken Labradors and Golden Retrievers to the highest levels, when I was looking for a lab. Told her my friends story and said "I do NOT want a dog like that". She told me look at FC and AFC dogs. In order to get to that level the dog MUST have a brain. My point to all this, is titles do show the parents are biddable and trainable. That is a MUST for any pet going to a pet home. Where I do try to cut, is cost. I do not expect a pet home to pay the same price I would for a performance pup. 



Lastly, I was one of those non believers. I was NOT getting a dog from a breeder there are perfectly good dogs in the paper, for a lot less money. Then I got my Teddi.... for her first birthday she had a total hip replacement costing me $6,000. Yup she was a cheaper dog.... at first. Clearance don't guarantee but they stack the deck in ones favor. She was the last puppy from the paper I ever got. 



Respectable, responsible breeders are exactly where a pet person should go. It is our job to educate people (any breed) why. I am also a fan of rescues, but there a reputable rescue will also help match the pup to the appropriate home.


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## three retirees (Aug 31, 2018)

Competition breeder or not that is the question... 



I can only go on my own experiences. When we wanted a Golden, I did not not know a golden from a hill of beans. We went to many rescues. We met a golden boy at a rescue in Socal who at 5 was blind. Then, I started to get smart. Socal Goldens were pricey. We looked online for dogs outside of the west coast. Prices differed drastically from breeder to breeder. Being ex-military, I read everything I could on the subject of Golden Retrievers. We even put a down payment on a puppy from Michigan. Then we found Eden from a breeder near Fresno.


If you are going to plunk down $$$ near or above the $1000.00 mark you better be getting the best dog you can buy for the money. The non competition breeders don't have the history of breeding the BEST dog you can buy for the money. Breeders who compete with their dogs do. If you are ready to make a crapshoot on just any dog and you don't care about health, longevity, or anything else, then go right ahead and get a backyard breeder's dog. I am making an investment with my money for the best dog I can get. I am envious of those owners who's dogs live to 13 or 15 years old. I could be so lucky. Herangiosarcoma and other cancers takes our dogs at such young ages. My Eden passed at 9 years 3 months. 



Off my soap box.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

So, it might just be natural thread drift, or maybe I gave a totally wrong impression.

My (poorly made?) point in the original post is that:

1. There are more puppy buyers than there are well-bred puppies.
2. We on this forum tend to be critical of breeders who aren't doing _everything_, including competing, etc.
3. We therefore only refer buyers to the "A list" breeders.
4. There are "B list" breeders who get core clearances, etc., but might do or not do things we here would want if we were to buy a puppy (e.g., compete, research studs, limit the number of litters, etc.).
5. Those "B list" breeders might be just fine for someone who is looking for "just a pet" puppy.

Therefore, 

6. Perhaps we should expand our horizons and not dump so hard on those "B list" breeders if we really want to help people find puppies.

Because, 

7. Again, there are more puppy buyers than there are puppies from "A list" breeders, and 
8. If we limit our recommendations only to "A list" breeders:
a. There aren't enough puppies to go around, so
b. An unintended consequence is that we will be _de facto_ sending the unlucky buyers off to back yard breeders and puppy mills, which is exactly what we don't want to happen.​
Do you think this proposal has merit, or not?


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

Dana,
Do you have any idea if there are many "B List" breeders out there? It seems like the majority of breeders that people ask about are either A List or BYB/PuppyMill types. I've only noticed a couple that would fit the B List category.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

cwag said:


> Dana,
> Do you have any idea if there are many "B List" breeders out there? It seems like the majority of breeders that people ask about are either A List or BYB/PuppyMill types. I've only noticed a couple that would fit the B List category.


I think we see them here fairly often, though I haven't kept them in mind. I just recall that we here generally find fault when they do come. Here's one identified in a thread I saw yesterday. Goldens of Country Acres - Sabattus, ME - Golden Retriever Puppies Maine, Dog Breeder. Though in this instance no one has critiqued the breeder (yet). I know a couple B-listers personally, and I hear about them from time to time.

So, I don't know if there are "many," but I don't think of it in the buckets you do, like A list or BYB/Mill types. I think it's a spectrum. I think they are out there. And I think we nitpick at them when they are mentioned here, though I don't have a sense of the numbers.

Not a very good answer, huh?


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

Our firs golden puppy was bought for one reason--duck hunting. Color didn't matter, only health. Also a little on the smaller side preferred. We got what we wanted. At 6 months he was retrieving ducks. The rest were just for pets to snuggle with, keep us company, etc. We have had 3 reds, 2 mid godlen and one light gold, 3 males and 3 females.


My Irish Setter, Boots had show quality and my son's girl frield's mother showed dogs and wanted to show him. But he was just my companion. I still have his papers even tho he was been gone over 20 years. I do think most people want goldesn just for compnay, companions, pet, etc.


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## ken71 (Jun 15, 2018)

It really isn’t as black and white as it’s painted here. Yes, there are “top”, show winning breeders and, yes, there are those awful puppy farms but in between it is possible to find responsible breeders with enormous integrity and care and who’s dogs meet the breed standards but choose not to show their dogs.

The buyer just needs to do his research carefully and a good breeder will fall over themselves to allow potential buyers to view the parents in their home environment and demonstrate the correct and necessary clearances.

My puppy came from a home breeder. We were encouraged to visit the litter from a very early age (long before we chose the actual puppy) and watch their progression through the first few weeks of their lives as their personalities started to develop. We saw interaction with the mother and got to know their home environment. We actually got to know all nine puppies in the litter before finally settling on Alfie.

I know this situation may be rare but it happens and not all breeders are in it for the money or prestige of showing.

As an aside, the breeder also carefully vetted us and turned away many potential buyers who were considered unsuitable. One example was a Middle Eastern businessman who simply wanted to send his secretary to pick up a puppy!



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Maxs Mom said:


> I have friend who got a lab, she wanted drive (not over the top drive) we knew the stud owner and respected the dog. We also knew she was getting a pup from the litter. My friend ended up with a dog with WAY too much drive, she could not exercise him to a happy place. He was so uncomfortable in his skin, completely anxious without anyway of giving him an outlet, believe me she tried, agility, field, obedience. He ended up on high dose of Prozac, and he is now a happy house dog, but she can't take him anywhere or he comes unglued. What if she were a pet home??


If that is the dog I'm thinking of - yeah. I remember thinking at matches that he needed more outlet to his energy. He needed to go out and open-run quite a bit before bringing him back in and asking anything of him. So much dog.




> Lastly, I was one of those non believers. I was NOT getting a dog from a breeder there are perfectly good dogs in the paper, for a lot less money. Then I got my Teddi.... for her first birthday she had a total hip replacement costing me $6,000. Yup she was a cheaper dog.... at first. Clearance don't guarantee but they stack the deck in ones favor. She was the last puppy from the paper I ever got.


Have to chip in here away from the hips and elbows.... Teddi was an awesome dog and a lovely little girl. When meeting people and other dogs - she was everything a golden should be. 

That's probably the biggest hangup that people have about going out of their way to buy an expensive dog from a big breeder vs buying a pup from somebody who bred what they owned for fun or a little money on the side. They are bringing lovely dogs home and they have sweet temperaments, what's there to regret?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Lol, I could write ten pages about that breeder , so I guess I agree with you in a way. I didn't comment out of the desire to live and let live n my home state. 




DanaRuns said:


> I think we see them here fairly often, though I haven't kept them in mind. I just recall that we here generally find fault when they do come. Here's one identified in a thread I saw yesterday. Goldens of Country Acres - Sabattus, ME - Golden Retriever Puppies Maine, Dog Breeder. Though in this instance no one has critiqued the breeder (yet). I know a couple B-listers personally, and I hear about them from time to time.
> 
> So, I don't know if there are "many," but I don't think of it in the buckets you do, like A list or BYB/Mill types. I think it's a spectrum. I think they are out there. And I think we nitpick at them when they are mentioned here, though I don't have a sense of the numbers.
> 
> Not a very good answer, huh?


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