# To neuter or not to neuter



## goldenboymurphey (Apr 16, 2012)

That is the question..............

I'm struggling with rather or not I should have Murphey neutered. My wife says we should, but every other male dog that I have had, I didn't have them neutered and I never had any problems health or otherwise with them.

Does anyone have any pros or cons on neutering?


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

http://www.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/2...her_and_when_to_neuter_a_golden_retreiver.pdf

Rhonda Hovan is a long time golden breeder. I would take a look at her article above.

Animal Reproduction. American College of Theriogenologists This is a position statement from vets that deal with reproduction.

If you look on the net you will find other articles that are pro and con.

One thing to think about if you are going to neuter the surgery is easier on the dog if done when they are younger.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

If you are absolutely 100% sure that for the entire life of the dog you can prevent him from ever having access to an intact female and produce an unwanted litter, then not neutering is your choice. Could a gate be left open, could a storm blow a fence down, could he slip his collar, could a roaming female in heat find him (they do!) ? Why risk it? 

If you are not competing in any competition venue, and have no intent to ever breed him, then it's just easier and safer to neuter him. There are arguments for and against it based on health studies, so I can't really give an opinion on that point.

Breeders say it is best to wait to neuter until the dog is at least 18 months old, to allow them to grow to their fullest potential with the hormones involved in that growth. What does your breeder say?


(My personal opinion coming from a very rescue oriented mindset, have him neutered, there just is no reason to leave a dog intact when you have no intention to breed them, or when you have no intention to show or compete with them and they are not a dog your breeder wants in their breeding line.)


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

For me, as a pet owner, the thought that if I ever made a mistake managing my dog (kids leave a gate open, a door doesn't get shut tightly enough etc.) and it could possibly result in a litter of unwanted puppies is truly horrifying. It's just not worth it to me and I have always had male dogs and they have always been neutered. They were beautiful and happy and healthy and I didn't have that burder of responsibility on me.

p.s. The previous poster (solinvictus) is quite knowledgeable and you've received good information links there...


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I dont neuter. My current on is and its the first and last dog that I will ever neuter...ever!. Neutering doesnt stop humping (as not all humping is sexual), neutering doesnt stop marking (inside or outside) IMO. THose are all behavoiral issues. 

Based on research I have done. I feel the risks of health problems my dog could get as a result of him losing a very important part of his body out weighs the slight risk he impregnates an in heat female. My dogs are all trained on a recall, if they slip their collar....they have a recall, I never leave them unsupervised in the yard (as that would be irresponsible to do with an intact AND neutered dog). My previous intact dogs never had an issue with marking, aggression, humping..yet the dog that is neutered now does have all these problems. 

Neutering increases the risk of prostate cancer (as found in recent articles), hypothyroidism, UTI's, Undesirable urination, increased aggression. People can argue with me all day in the end every one has their opinion and this is mine. 

The risk of your dog getting testicular cancer is less then 1%....the cure is neuter. Also, the dogs that are being killed in the shelters were not put there by my intact males. So therefore its not really my problem. So rather then complain to me about that, go complain to the people who allowed their dogs to breed then brought the pups to the shelter. Im very harsh in that opinion, I feel sorry for those dogs...but using them as a tool to guilt me into neutering wont work. 

If you choose to neuter, wait till 24 months so the growth plates can close. At that point my theory is why even bother to neuter if the dog isnt an issue. If it aint broke dont fix it. 

Im sure a couple people I have in mind will come onto this thread and tell me im wrong and blah blah but thats my opinion. Take what you want from it leave what you dont. The subject of neutering is touchy like vaccines or raw feeding. I do not play God with my animals and I do not go cutting body parts off my dog which were put there for a purpose because the vet said I should.

Testicles play more role then just for reproduction. Hormones are needed to maintain many functions such as thyroid. While the chance your dog will get these negative effects are not terribly high its something I choose to not mess with. 

If it was so great, then we humans would be in line for neuters and spays, I should go get my breasts removed in case I get cancer in one of them...

Thats my 2 cents anyway

The Negative Aspects of Neutering Your Pet 

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

I am all for neutering. I would never want to contribute to the number of unwanted dogs there already are at shelters and I feel very strongly that spay/neuter is the right way to go. I mean, if you don't, does this mean you could never go to a dog park or a dog meet up because of the risk that someone brings a female in heat? It sounds crazy, but I have seen people bring bitches in heat to various parks and let them run around off leash.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

If someone brings an in heat female to a dog park and lets it run off leash is asking for trouble. Would it be the fault of the male dogs owner? No it would fall on the stupid owner of the in heat bitch who allowed his/her dog to roam free. Thats just my opinion...

You may as well just go ahead and amputate all his legs. 

That will solve ALL those potential could-be, what-if, just-might-could-possibly-be-if all the stars line up and the moon is full and your intact horny dog slips you a mickey and goes out for a night of impregnating multitudes of in heat loose females. 

Cause you know, you can never be certain that it couldn't happen.

The chances of someone bringing an in heat female to a park and letting them off leash is slim BUT I myself have seen it before


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

I totally agree, it would be their fault. But no matter whose fault it is, an unwanted litter has been produced. I'd just rather be safe than sorry.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

vcm5 said:


> I totally agree, it would be their fault. But no matter whose fault it is, an unwanted litter has been produced. I'd just rather be safe than sorry.


Thats understandable. I just dont like seeing intact males dogs labelled as sex crazed, horny, aggressive, drooling maniacs. It takes two to tango is how the saying goes.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> Thats understandable. I just dont like seeing intact males dogs labelled as sex crazed, horny, aggressive, drooling maniacs. It takes two to tango is how the saying goes.


Haha, good point!


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

" I mean, if you don't, does this mean you could never go to a dog park or a dog meet up because of the risk that someone brings a female in heat? It sounds crazy, but I have seen people bring bitches in heat to various parks and let them run around off leash. "

Both Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania have laws against bringing a dog in heat out in public. (such as a dog park) (walking through the neighborhood etc.)

Even neutered males can tie with a female in heat even if they cannot get her pregnant. 
IMO, whether the dog is neutered or intact if (generic) you don't have control of your dog off leash it shouldn't be off leash.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

It's a personal choice. I am all for neutering also and from my personal experience the sooner the better to stop the marking and humping


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## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

Neuter!!!!!!!!!


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> It's a personal choice. I am all for neutering also and from my personal experience the sooner the better to stop the marking and humping


Which is why I know several (including my own two dogs) that hump and mark. 

If you have to rely on a surgical procedure because your unable to properly contain and train your dog, that isnt being responsible. You cannot deny research!!

I could go on about the what ifs. What if I get into a car accident tomorrow??? Oh maybe ill sell my car so I dont have to drive it. 

If you choose to neuter (or mutilate as I call it) your dog thats fine. I respect your decision because its not my dog to worry about. But the OP needs to see both sides of story. Not just the ones where people are pushing to neuter. 

OP, dont be guilted into neutering your dog. There several people on this forum who own intact males/females who dont breed and im sure there are many more who refuse to come out of the closet about it in fear they will be called irresponsible. I for one could care less what people think about me keeping my dogs intact. 

The worst of all if when someone neuters because they dont like testicles or seeing them. Simple solution to that would be...get a female (or no dog at all) or...dont look at his testicles.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> Which is why I know several (including my own two dogs) that hump and mark.
> 
> If you have to rely on a surgical procedure because your unable to properly contain and train your dog, that isnt being responsible. You cannot deny research!!
> 
> ...


So then why jump all over my post? I am a _reponsible _owner of one neutered golden retriever who is properly trained and contained. I am not trying to guilt anyone into neutering. I am just speaking from MY experience.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Your making it seem like the ONLY way to be responsible is to neuter. Its not impossible to keep a dog intact confine to your own yard. Ive owned intact males and never once had an issue containing them. 

Yes, your being responsible by keeping your neutered dog confined. John Doe down the road is being responsible by keeping his intact dog confined. But because John Does dog isnt neutered hes automatically labelled as irresponsible.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> Your making it seem like the ONLY way to be responsible is to neuter. Its not impossible to keep a dog intact confine to your own yard. Ive owned intact males and never once had an issue containing them.
> 
> Yes, your being responsible by keeping your neutered dog confined. John Doe down the road is being responsible by keeping his intact dog confined. But because John Does dog isnt neutered hes automatically labelled as irresponsible.


Nope. I was just responding to your post below: Which btw has nothing to do with why I chose to neuter. And again it is a personal decision.

*If you have to rely on a surgical procedure because your unable to properly contain and train your dog,* *that isnt being responsible*. You cannot deny research!!


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

for my life style and choices.. it is easier to have Joey neutered... I waited until 18 months (I wanted to wait longer... but my parents wanted it done sooner) For my next dog if I do decide to neuter.. it won't be until he is at least 3 or 4. It is totally a personal choice, lots of good articles online though you can have a good read  Also search the forum 'when to neuter' this is a common question with many heated threads  so watch out! haha

edit- also I can see where this is going.... OP don't let people guilt you into neutering or staying intact. It is based on YOUR commitment level and your responsibilty. I see you only have 8 posts so we don't know you that well yet  Keep in mind if you plan to go away, finding a boarding that allows intact dogs will be harder, doggie day cares as well. There are some out there you just have to dig deep to find them!


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"John Doe down the road is being responsible by keeping his intact dog confined. But because John Does dog isnt neutered hes automatically labelled as irresponsible."

Unfortunately, there are way to many clueless owners that do let their intact dogs run or breed the intact female that they own. It is a lot better now than in the past but they are still out there enough to be a problem. 

The bigger problem though is retention. As long as owners are not responsible owners for the entire life of the dog and think it is acceptable to dump them into shelters those that have intact animals that are responsible will get the blame too as they are an easy target. And there isn't an easy fix to the retention issue.

It is always good put the information out there and let each owner make up their own mind according to their situation and health of their dog (as long as they abide by their breeders contract)


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

As you've seen, this is a hot button topic among dog owners!

I'm pro-neuthering. I think the society of dogs runs more smoothly when males are neutered. I think neutering females is essential to prevent extra puppies in the world when we have so many in our humane societies, waiting for homes. 

With that said, it is a matter of personal choice. Since I got Tucker (he's 10 months now) and read up on current thinking, it has changed a lot since I last had a male dog. Many/most people who plan to neuter seem to want to let the dog be at least a year or more old to allow them to achieve the most normal growth. However as someone mentioned, the surgery is easier on a puppy than an adult and the recuperation time is faster for a puppy. 

I had planned to neuter Tucker at about a year, and did it earlier. I rely heavily on dog parks for his exercise. What I learned when Tucker hit puberty was that un-neutered males in the dog park setting are the focus of bullying by both neutered and un-neutered males. My Tucker is not an aggressive boy and I didn't want him to get pushed around or jumped. He was getting weirded out by all the aggression focused on him. So I had the surgery done at 10 months. It went very well; he seems the same dog as before, but with less humping.  But un-neutered dogs are generally not very welcome in dog parks. 

The other thing that hasn't really been brought up is how the politics of the matter play out in face to face encounters. I've had owners of neutered dogs get right in my face when THEIR dog got aggressive with mine. The accusation was that it was the un-neutered dog's owner's fault that their neutered baby was misbehaving ... Go figure. :doh: Then I had an instance of an intact large dog in a park who pushed everyone around and sat on all the dogs to dominate them, while his owner stood with her back to the park, chatting on her phone or with a friend. When people complained she got very defensive about her "right" to have an intact dog. Yeah....she has that right, and along with it comes some responsibility... 

I hope all of this information and friendly debate helps you with your decision! Welcome to GRF.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I totally agree theres a ton of people who do let their dogs breed. I know a handful of them myself and I often wish I could just take their dogs and neuter them. The one is an EX who lets his 12 year old male breed to his brothers 13 year old Retriever because the dog "keeps escaping out of his outdoor kennel" where he lives 24/7 and is only paid attention to when being fed

But...for me, I prefer to keep mine intact. I just dont like being labelled as irresponsible or part of the problem. I am not part of the problem because my dogs have never contributed to the over population problem. 

My previous cat (female) was due to get fixed and my EX once again let her outside despite my wishes and yes she got pregnant but had to be PTS due to compications. Therefore, all my cats are now fixed. I prefer them to be but I decided to wait with that female due to financial issues. My current cat Riot was neutered the second he turned 6 months. Cats to me are a whole different ball game though. 

I believe 100% that any cat should be fixed. My opinion on female dogs is still undecided. I dont like to own female dogs and never will. Ruby was already done when I got her from my father. I just dont like the higher incident rates of pyo in females left intact.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

solinvictus said:


> " Both Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania have laws against bringing a dog in heat out in public. (such as a dog park) (walking through the neighborhood etc.)


I know! That's why it is so crazy every time I see it happen! Riley has great recall so it's never an issue for me, but it definitely causes an issue with other dogs in the park. I've seen it maybe two or three times in the last year or so.


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## mrmooseman (Aug 12, 2011)

For me personally, we decided to have Moose neutered at 11 months (I wanted to wait long, but we figured it would be better to be done by the summer) because he is a strong dog. He is trained and will listen, but who's not to say if he smells a female in heat or see's one he won't drag me with him to do the deed. I like to think he's like any horny teenage boy haha. Thank being said, just because I may not be able to hold him back doesn't mean that I'm irresponsible and can't raise a dog. It means he's 90 pounds (he isn't over weight, he is just a big golden as told by our vet) and I am a tiny female. I can handle him now but who knows what would happen. ALSO, I grew up with a dog, german shephard/rotti, who wasn't fixed. He would escape sometimes if the gate was opened, but then learned to stay in the yard as he got older. He never had contact with a female, and he wasn't aggressive, BUT he did end up with testicular cancer and I would rather not have my dog go through what he did. But that is my personal opinion.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Neuter or don't neuter, but please remember that whatever you do you are responsible for your dog's behavior, training, control, and effect on society. Not the dog's gonads or lack thereof.  

I'm one of those that would prefer that this remain a choice vs a dictate.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My two boys are neutered. Recently, I took one of the boys I bred who is not yet neutered to a dog show. He is related to my neutered boys and he definitely has a brain that works differently from my two boys. My boys act like idiots when one of my girls is in heat, but otherwise don't exhibit male behavior. This dog wouldn't stop mounting one of the girls I took to the show.. I had to put a gentle leader on him and he was anxious and wouldn't settle... Not for me.

Last week, a client's 4 y o male had to have surgery for a prostatic abscess..the surgeon recommended neutering him and doing a scrotal ablation as well. I have another client whose dog developed gynecomastia, and hair loss from a testicular tumor... I could go on and on.... There ARE health considerations, it is not just vets trying to get your money...


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

Lincoln_16 said:


> If you choose to neuter (or mutilate as I call it) your dog thats fine. I respect your decision because its not my dog to worry about.


I'm sorry, but that's a little extreme. So you believe in neutering/spaying all cats and you're on the fence about female dogs, but when it comes to male dogs, it's "mutilating"?? You say that you respect individual owners decisions, but using that term alone shows anything but respect. People are so afraid that others are going to attack their decisions that they end up going to the extreme and attacking the decisions of others first. Please don't try to make those that do choose to neuter their pets feel guilty by calling it mutilating just because it isn't what you would do. 

And, FWIW, humans do also get "neutered and spayed" when they don't want children. It's not such a foreign concept. 

(This is coming from someone with a 2 1/2 year old intact male, BTW.)


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> This dog wouldn't stop mounting one of the girls I took to the show.. I had to put a gentle leader on him and he was anxious and wouldn't settle... Not for me. cv


But don't you think that is a socialization and training problem? 

I don't know if my dog would ever mount another dog. He's never tried. <- I should say he mainly only plays with our collie and sometimes our neighbor's dogs. When things look like the dogs are getting kinda hyped up and will start mounting, we break it up. We did the same back when we kept 2 intact boys at a time. 

With Jacks his interactions with other dogs are very polite. He has his routine which involves standing VERY still and holding his breath to allow the other dog to check him out. And then this usually turns into the spinning playbows. 

I generally make a habit of sitting with space between us and the other dogs at class simply because Jacks will crawl over to sniff the other dogs and try engaging them in play. 

As far as dealing with other dogs - probably the worst behaved dog I've ever had to deal with is a spayed female lab at the barn where I board. Who will come running up charging Jacks and go nuts trying to mount him.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> I'm sorry, but that's a little extreme. So you believe in neutering/spaying all cats and you're on the fence about female dogs, but when it comes to male dogs, it's "mutilating"?? You say that you respect individual owners decisions, but using that term alone shows anything but respect. People are so afraid that others are going to attack their decisions that they end up going to the extreme and attacking the decisions of others first. Please don't try to make those that do choose to neuter their pets feel guilty by calling it mutilating just because it isn't what you would do.
> 
> And, FWIW, humans do also get "neutered and spayed" when they don't want children. It's not such a foreign concept.
> 
> (This is coming from someone with a 2 1/2 year old intact male, BTW.)


I neuter and spay cats, they are waaay harder to train and keep an eye on then dogs. Cats are sneaky and can bolt out a door with out you knowing. I would never own another female dog....

When us humans dont want kids we get our tubes tied so our hormones remain. A hysterectomy on a human isnt done unless it has to be and lots are put on hormone therapy.

Sure a dog can get prostate issues, testicular cancer etc but thats a small risk. If we were talking about a 50 percent chance your dog will get cancer if left intact thats another story.

If your for neutering....neuter yours. Im allowed my opinion and that opinion is i believe cropping, docking, neutering, spaying and declawing are all mutilation. A sex crazed male trying to mount a female is a training issue IMO and not to be blamed on a body part


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Im not making anyone feel guilty, i dont care if you neuter your dogs. I dont like seeing a person being told something like neutering is the best but not being told the cons that have been shown in studies such as whats in the links i provided. When a vet tells a client neutering is the best and theres no negatives associated with it is IMO just caring about the money and dusting your hands to say "well got one more dog neutered yay for me"


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Lincoln_16 said:


> A sex crazed male trying to mount a female is a training issue IMO and not to be blamed on a body part



Are you really trying to argue that an intact male trying to mount an in-season female is just a behavioral issue, not anything to do with hormones? That's kind of funny actually.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

missmarstar said:


> Are you really trying to argue that an intact male trying to mount an in-season female is just a behavioral issue, not anything to do with hormones? That's kind of funny actually.


It's true to a certain extent though, though I wouldn't call it "behavioral"... 

If your neutered/intact dog is trying to mount a female dog in heat, then that is both a training issue and a management one.


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## mrmooseman (Aug 12, 2011)

It's just personal preference. I grew up with male dogs and they were all intact. They never behaved badly, and they never mounted anything. My grandmothers dog was fixed and he humped all the male dogs. I believe it's a dominance thing. Moose, even when intact, only humped males, and his blanket, but again we think it's just a doninace thing (or his sexual orientation and we accept that hehe). For us it just was right to have him done. I think cats should be done regardless because the cat population around here is nuts. I don't like declawing or docking or having some dogs ears pointed up (whatever thats called) but their not my dog so I would never force my opinions onto someone else.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I always thought in heat females werent allowed at shows....

My neutered dog will mount an in heat female but because he has no balls its automatically considered behavoiral. If your intact dog mounts a female NOT in season i believe its a behavoiral and control issue


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Megora said:


> It's true to a certain extent though, though I wouldn't call it "behavioral"...
> 
> If your neutered/intact dog is trying to mount a female dog in heat, then that is both a training issue and a management one.



It's an issue that needs to be managed but it's driven by hormones.

I had an intact male for the first 3.5 years of his life, mounting dogs or people or things in general was never a issue with him, but I would not have been shocked in the slightest if he had ever been interested in, or tried to mount, an in-season female. It's instinct and hormone driven behavior.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

missmarstar said:


> It's an issue that needs to be managed but it's driven by hormones.
> 
> I had an intact male for the first 3.5 years of his life, mounting dogs or people or things in general was never a issue with him, but I would not have been shocked in the slightest if he had ever been interested in, or tried to mount, an in-season female. It's instinct and hormone driven behavior.


INSTINCT being the keyword. A neutered dog can respond to an in heat female....thats instinct.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

missmarstar said:


> It's an issue that needs to be managed but it's driven by hormones.
> 
> I had an intact male for the first 3.5 years of his life, mounting dogs or people or things in general was never a issue with him, but I would not have been shocked in the slightest if he had ever been interested in, or tried to mount, an in-season female. It's instinct and hormone driven behavior.


It mainly should be managed, but dogs can be trained to ignore other dogs and not so much as sniff them or look at them. This happens all the time at training clubs. 

You can't have a female in heat at shows, but they do take the dogs at some point during their heat to classes (otherwise they'd miss a month of training). They go potty outside right along with the other dogs and wear the diapers in class. 

Where I train, my dog will heal off leash right behind a diaper girl without breaking focus on me. And even if I put him in a stay next to a diaper girl, he generally is completely unaware of her. <- A lot of this is all of the training and socialization that I've done. And what I feel your average dog owners should be doing, at least for those first two years while their dogs are developing their permanent social skills around people and other dogs.

*** I do recognize those hormones and instincts are there with my dog. But at the same time I would be STUNNED if he got up in a stay line up and mounted one of the other dogs. >.<


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Lincoln_16 said:


> If someone brings an in heat female to a dog park and lets it run off leash is asking for trouble. Would it be the fault of the male dogs owner? No it would fall on the stupid owner of the in heat bitch who allowed his/her dog to roam free. Thats just my opinion...
> 
> You may as well just go ahead and amputate all his legs.
> 
> ...


You are the correct, the female dog's owner is responsible in that situation. However, that means there is an unwanted litter of puppies adding to the population of unwanted dogs. If you're dog is neutered then you will not also be responsible for that litter of puppies, that was created by the stupid female dog's owner.

That would be the generic, all inclusive "you". 

I'm not talking about you Lincoln.


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## Fantapls (Apr 24, 2012)

Dogs in heat at dog shows happen ALL the time, it's sometimes done on purpose to throw off the competition in the ring. Oh the joys of political showmanship. 

I think it's absolutely absurd that ANYBODY would think that all males should remain intact that sounds completely ignorant. I completely believe that yes, some males can totally live their entire lives intact, many of them Goldens, their temperaments allow them to do so. But there are MANY cases of males that NEED (not just should be) NEED to be neutered - for many reasons. I think it's very ignorant of Lincoln to bunch every single male (and owner) in the category of "if you male is mounting and out of control its your fault and it's not trained" uhhh No. You've obviously not owned enough dogs in your lifetime to even realize what it's like to have that difficult male dog, you have no idea. I think sometimes we do neuter too early, like giant or large breeds, I think they need more time to grow and mature. I feel like neutering is very individual - every dog is different, wired different, has different sex drives (instinct drives, whatever), personalities, EVERYTHING. You have to make that responsible decision of what you're comfortable with and what you dog needs. 

I find it very hypocritial that Lincoln think it's okay to "Mutilate" cats, but it's not okay for a male dog? And you're not sure about a female? I'm sorry you sound so uneducated and very brass to be using such a term as mutilation - it's not very considerate of anybody's feelings. IMO I think keeping an male intact and now allowing him to breed regularily is animal cruelty in my eye, it really messes them up sometimes. You see it happen all the time in the human world, (look at catholics priests, or men in prison). You're right when you said it's an instinct, and you cannot TRAIN instinct out of them, so why keep that form of torture there if you are not allowing it to happen??? 

I hope anybody reading this doesn't feel bad about making the decision, or listening to your vet. Sometimes yes, vets may push it in scenarios that may not need it but you have to remember veterinarians have to assume that every dog owner is NOT responsible, it's a whole different world owning and intact dog, and it shouldn't be taken lightly. This forum is great for stating opinions and facts, but sometimes, it's just plain rude and belittling at times with opinions being shoved down your throat.

Do your research, have a GOOD and trusting relationship with your veterinarian and listen to what they say, and by gosh speak up if you disagree!!! Just because some people read a zillion articles online about ANYTHING doesn't mean you're a professional about it. Listen to your vet - they busted their ass (and wallet) at school to become one!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I think it's absolutely absurd that ANYBODY would think that all males should remain intact that sounds completely ignorant. I completely believe that yes, some males can totally live their entire lives intact, many of them Goldens, their temperaments allow them to do so. But there are MANY cases of males that NEED (not just should be) NEED to be neutered - for many reasons. I think it's very ignorant of Lincoln to bunch every single male (and owner) in the category of "if you male is mounting and out of control its your fault and it's not trained" uhhh No. You've obviously not owned enough dogs in your lifetime to even realize what it's like to have that difficult male dog, you have no idea. I think sometimes we do neuter too early, like giant or large breeds, I think they need more time to grow and mature. I feel like neutering is very individual - every dog is different, wired different, has different sex drives (instinct drives, whatever), personalities, EVERYTHING. You have to make that responsible decision of what you're comfortable with and what you dog needs.


I have only owned goldens (and the collie who is technically a more sensitive and high pitched golden), but I train around people with different breeds... including dogs with actual dog aggression issues (who are also showing in conformation). 

I don't care what breed it is or whether the dog is intact or not, if the dog is popping up and mounting other dogs... everyone looks at the trainer. It is a training issue. 

ETA - I definitely am fine with neutering, btw. I think some dogs should be neutered. And I've said before that if my golden were exhibiting the out of control hormonal issues that people ascribe to intact dogs, I would neuter him yesterday to calm some of that down. But I simply am trying to remind people (yet again) that intact dogs can be easy keepers with the right socialization, training, and management. And I definitely do believe that dogs who were aggressive and dominant before their neutering surgery will be aggressive and dominant afterwards. There are a lot of nasty dogs out there because people tried to replace training with a simple surgery.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Fantapls said:


> Dogs in heat at dog shows happen ALL the time, it's sometimes done on purpose to throw off the competition in the ring. Oh the joys of political showmanship.
> 
> I think it's absolutely absurd that ANYBODY would think that all males should remain intact that sounds completely ignorant. I completely believe that yes, some males can totally live their entire lives intact, many of them Goldens, their temperaments allow them to do so. But there are MANY cases of males that NEED (not just should be) NEED to be neutered - for many reasons. I think it's very ignorant of Lincoln to bunch every single male (and owner) in the category of "if you male is mounting and out of control its your fault and it's not trained" uhhh No. You've obviously not owned enough dogs in your lifetime to even realize what it's like to have that difficult male dog, you have no idea. I think sometimes we do neuter too early, like giant or large breeds, I think they need more time to grow and mature. I feel like neutering is very individual - every dog is different, wired different, has different sex drives (instinct drives, whatever), personalities, EVERYTHING. You have to make that responsible decision of what you're comfortable with and what you dog needs.
> 
> ...


Right Jessica. Coming from someone who breeds her intact Golden with ZERO health clearances/papers because your vet said he didnt need any. I KNOW this is you. You closed your actual account on here ages ago because people found out you were a BYB etc. Now your back. Just because your a tech doesnt mean you know everything.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Hah, the moment I saw this thread I knew it was going to become a big crapfest.

To the OP: I hope you can weed through the brambles and pick out the helpful posts in here. It's a personal decision, and I think you should research it thoroughly before making a decision. In the end, either decision you make will be a good one for you and your pup! Good luck.


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## Aislinn (Nov 13, 2010)

In conformation bitches can be shown when in season. You let the judge know though for when he's going over her out of courtesy. In performance events you cannot have a bitch in season. 

This question always ends up an arguement and it shouldn't. An OP asks the question and perhaps it should be answered one time by each person. Simply stating what we do or believe should be all that I think should be written. No arguing, no defending. 

That said, I believe in neutering any dog that is not up to the standard of the breed, has not had all it's clearances come back clear, or that is just a pet. My show dogs are not neutered, my pets are.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

As I have said before, when my girls are in standing heat, the neutered boys can do everything but get the girl pregnant. They get very hyper and somewhat stressed. The girls, also get "strange" neutered or not. They will all mount the girls whether in standing heat or not. It is very kinetic in this house at those times and drives me nuts. We do not have any kind of a kennel situation and once my dogs are trained, they are only in crates at shows.

The boy I referred to earlier is definitely a product of his training. He has a family that adores him, but is not very effective at training. But what I noticed ringside is that he was definitely more interested in dogs and their rear ends than my neutered boys ever were. And as far as girls, pyometra and mammary tumors are reality in girls not spayed by one year of age.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Aislinn said:


> That said, I believe in neutering any dog that is not up to the standard of the breed, has not had all it's clearances come back clear, or that is just a pet. My show dogs are not neutered, my pets are.


My only response here is words like this would seem to back up the belief that intact dogs are only for breeding - as stated by some people.

Or backing up the belief that intact dogs will inevitably breed - as stated by other people. 

It begs comment from people who are not breeders and never have been and never will be. As I said, I think it is a personal choice or decision that dog owners should make about their own dogs. It is possible to keep a dog intact without any chance of that dog breeding. I want people on all sides to understand that and be responsible for their dogs.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

I hope all the testiness (pun intended) hasn't chased the new member OP away.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

We have always had ours "fixed" as the old term goes. No matter how closely you watch, a door can be left open, a gate left open ...we had meter readers not shut our gate well enough to catch and ours got out. Also the kids next door when smaller opened our gate and didn't get it shut. We now have a lock on it and nobody can get in. Dogs can dig under fences or climb over them. 

My neighbor didn't have her female fixed and the boys let her out--and she ended up with puppies, 4 of which ended up going to the pound. AND SHE STILL DIDN'T GET THE DOG SPAYED.

I do not consider it mutilating--cropping ears and docking tails is mutilating--tht is done strictly for looks, or what some people decided shoudl be the "look". But "fixing" a dog to prevent any chance of having/siering an unwanted litter of pups (of which many end up in pounds) is birth control, not mutilation.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

3 goldens said:


> We have always had ours "fixed" as the old term goes. No matter how closely you watch, a door can be left open, a gate left open ...we had meter readers not shut our gate well enough to catch and ours got out. Also the kids next door when smaller opened our gate and didn't get it shut. We now have a lock on it and nobody can get in. Dogs can dig under fences or climb over them.


We don't have a fence at all... 

We do have a rule that the dogs do not go outside unless there is somebody putting their shoes on and going outside with them. And if that person isn't ready to go running to retrieve a dog, then the dogs have to be on leash. 

That's whether they are intact or not. 

^ Nothing drives me more nutty than going for a walk with my dog and having to stop and retrieve a loose dog and return him home only to discover the family isn't home and the neighbors have no way of reaching that family. 

Just a couple weeks ago, I had to stop and grab a neighbor's older female lab, walk her home, only to find the house locked up and dark. <- I was about 2 miles away from home at the time and had my own dog with me, so I couldn't walk her home with me and I couldn't in good conscience leave her stray. 

The neighbors did not have the owners cell phone number to call them. And the neighbors were highly reluctant to have anything to do with the dog, so I couldn't even talk them into locking the dog in their yards or garages. 

Fortunately the owner's garage side door was open and I stowed their dog inside. This is something I wind up having to do a LOT. People with invisible fencing or older dogs "assume" that their dogs are not going to wander, but they do - all the time. 

In this case, I was happy the dog wasn't on an electric collar, because I've dealt with dogs who are highly reluctant to go back home across a line after they've run through it. I've been bitten before by a dog who wasn't even wearing the beeping collar when I walked him across the line.


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## goldenboymurphey (Apr 16, 2012)

Lincoln_16 said:


> I dont neuter. My current on is and its the first and last dog that I will ever neuter...ever!. Neutering doesnt stop humping (as not all humping is sexual), neutering doesnt stop marking (inside or outside) IMO. THose are all behavoiral issues.
> 
> Based on research I have done. I feel the risks of health problems my dog could get as a result of him losing a very important part of his body out weighs the slight risk he impregnates an in heat female. My dogs are all trained on a recall, if they slip their collar....they have a recall, I never leave them unsupervised in the yard (as that would be irresponsible to do with an intact AND neutered dog). My previous intact dogs never had an issue with marking, aggression, humping..yet the dog that is neutered now does have all these problems.
> 
> ...


I love your post! I agree with you 100% I've decided not to neuter Murphey. Thanks for your input!


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

goldenboymurphey said:


> I love your post! I agree with you 100% I've decided not to neuter Murphey. Thanks for your input!


Anytime , just make sure murphey is trained well. Make sure hes not left unsupervised anywhere even if its a fenced yard.


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## goldenboymurphey (Apr 16, 2012)

Lincoln_16 said:


> Anytime , just make sure murphey is trained well. Make sure hes not left unsupervised anywhere even if its a fenced yard.


 
I agree. He is completely an inside dog and will never be left alone while outside.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Responsible dog ownership goes way beyond whether a person chooses to neuter/spay or not. Neutering does not 'make' a dog aggressive, prone to mounting other dogs or marking in your home - temperament, health, living conditions,socialization and how the dog is treated all contribute to how a dog behaves and reacts to other dogs. 
Having an intact dog is a huge responsibility and if you take that responsibility 'dead serious' for the next 10 to 15 years - that is your choice. But should that event that is 'never' going to happen occur, and your dog contributes to a litter of puppies, regardless whether the female was running loose or in her own backyard, or she gets into your backyard - that is ALSO your responsibility, and the fate of those unwanted puppies lies equally on your shoulders.
It IS your choice -be 100% prepared to shoulder the responsibility of that decision for the life of your dog and 100% sure that you are willing and able to carry it through.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> Right Jessica. Coming from someone who breeds her intact Golden with ZERO health clearances/papers because your vet said he didnt need any. I KNOW this is you. You closed your actual account on here ages ago because people found out you were a BYB etc. Now your back. Just because your a tech doesnt mean you know everything.


This is uncalled for. You really didn't like it when someone did this to you in another thread, you shouldn't do this to this member. Regardless of who she is, let the past be the past, it's not related to this thread. Let's all be kind to each other!


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

vcm5 said:


> This is uncalled for. You really didn't like it when someone did this to you in another thread, you shouldn't do this to this member. Regardless of who she is, let the past be the past, it's not related to this thread. Let's all be kind to each other!



I also didnt like how nothing was done about that user who only joined to attack me. Figured i would let everyone know shes a BYB who doesnt run any health screenings on her dog or the females...she breeds for looks. 

I ignored it the first time


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

We live in small town, our yard has a 6 foot wooden fence. We have trees, flowers,grass bird baths, bird feeders and squirrel fedders that draw tons of birds and squirrels. Honey LOVES to be outwide to watch the brids and chase squirrels, to run up and down the back fence with the dogs behind us doing the same on their side (they are permanent outside dogs, all fosters). She would be totally miserable if she was kept in the house 95% of the time, onlyh allowed out on a leash. She is alone in the bck yard a coule of hours a day, her choice.

If we lived in a an apartment in a city, she would not know about yards, etc and would probably be okay in the house almost all the time. 

I know some wouldsay I should never leave her (or any dog) out in the yard alone. I don't see it that way. We have that 6 foot wooden fence she can't get over, and actaully poured cement all around the bottom to prevent any of ours from digging out, or others from digging in. Our only folly was the gate and I even had stepping stones under it to prevent in/out digging. and once we put a lock on it, it can only be opened by us (the electric company put in a new kind of meter where they didn't have to come into the yard any more.) Our dogs have all always loved being able to be out in the yard for hours at a time. Myh vet says he wished everyone took care of their dogs the way I do. I take them in if they limp once, or sneezetwice. I get yearly physicals including heartworm test, chst x-rays, full blood panel, urine and fecal test. And once onlder, all byt the x0rays are done twice a year. They hve all always been fixed. Went in debt to have KayCee's knee surgeries 14 months apart, ran up a huge bill with Hunter in ICU with the AIHA, made sure the two I had with thyroid got their meds daily, etc. I feed them great food, including home cooking. I love them with all my heart. We even cut our lat vacation short to get back to get Honey out of boarding with our vet....tho she adores him.

So if anyone things I don't do not care becaue I hae always let my be free in the yard, you are dead wrong. Some folks hae no choice becaue of wher they live, etc, but I do. and I would never be put in a situtation where I had to keep my dog always in the house or on a leash just so I could keep them intat. That would be like holding them prisoner in a way.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

3 goldens said:


> We live in small town, our yard has a 6 foot wooden fence. We have trees, flowers,grass bird baths, bird feeders and squirrel fedders that draw tons of birds and squirrels. Honey LOVES to be outwide to watch the brids and chase squirrels, to run up and down the back fence with the dogs behind us doing the same on their side (they are permanent outside dogs, all fosters). She would be totally miserable if she was kept in the house 95% of the time, onlyh allowed out on a leash. She is alone in the bck yard a coule of hours a day, her choice.
> 
> If we lived in a an apartment in a city, she would not know about yards, etc and would probably be okay in the house almost all the time.
> 
> ...


Thats fine. Your dog is fixed. I would NEVER leave an intact dog outside unsupervised. 

I also never said you werent responsible or dont take care of your dogs. Every one has their own perspective when it comes to dog care. My vet would LOVE me if I brought my dog in for chest x rays, blood work, wormer, HW test and HW meds yearly. That alone would cost me $1000 EASY. I do the basics of Heart worm test, Revolution and blood work. If theres a problem I take him in when *I* feel its needed. Any vet where a client spends thousands of dollars yearly on a dog would say they take excellent care of their dog...


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

That is EXACTLY my point. Honey is spayed and I can allow her to be free in my yard without me being attached to her to prevent the off chance some male dog could get at her and get her pregant. She does not have to be a prisoner becaue I wanted to keep her intact....not to have puppies or for show, but "just because"

You seem to hae a severe problem with vets. Do you not believe in preventative health care for you family? We have always had preventative and wellness checks for our sons and our dogs. If i was not willing to spend the money to make sure they had the best care possible I would not have a dog. Honey's kidney problme was caught in her yearly physical. Bucks low thyroid was caught in a predental geriatric full blood work. Honey's cracked tooth was found during a yearly physical...it had to be pulled.

Yes my vet loves me for taking the best cvare possible of my dogs. One thing about him, the animals come first. He hates it when a person refuses to puppy in for vax, then call him in the middle of the night with a sick puppy--parvo. He hates it when people don't want to give their dog heart worm prevention becaue they are inside dogs, then bring in a gasping dying dog whose's heart and lungs are full of them (like my next door neighbor did with both of hers). He hates it when a person brings in a dog with a softball tumor on it's lip and claims "they didn't notice it til a couple of days ago." He hates it when a very ill senior dog is brought in pregnant.

His office call is $34 and he could get a lot more becuae he has a repuatation of saving dogs. One of his clinets was the top arson dog in the state--came 1oo miles to be seen by my vet. A man at our church had a brother 400 miles away in Fort Worth that brought his lab down for surgery aftr eating some golf balls. My vet lets reliable pay asable. When Hunter was put in ICU, he told me not to worry about the bill, just worry about Hunter. He never press3ed me for payment, never even billed me. And he has done this for many people whose dogs had surgeries. And I pady just about $1100 for BOTH of KayCee's knee surgereis bavck in 2001 and 2002 and most wre paying abut $2500 per knee at tht time.

So yes, my vet does love me because he knows i take the best possible care of my dogs, not becuae he gets money from me (oh,he does give sneior citizens a discount). And I know there are many vets just like himj. It is standing joke that either I owe him money or I have credit there (at the moment I have $112 credit, but have owed as much as $2300) but never have a $0 balance.


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

Hi! Mutilated woman here... I'm gonna post. 

I believe in neutering. Why? Accidents happen. 

You could be the MOST responsible dog owner on earth... but we are human. Keep that in mind. Accidents DO happen.

A few days ago I was making chicken salad. Dogs were playing in the living room. Heard the front door open and it was a friend of mine. Dogs bolted out the door. 

Before you go and say I should have trained them not to bolt - I have. They were very excited about this person, yadda yadda, doesn't matter. They were out of the house and gone.

Now, their recall is pretty dang good, if I do say so myself. They both ran back (probably helped that I had cooked chicken, but ah well) ... LUCKILY they are both fixed. LUCKILY they came back. LUCKILY there wasn't a squirrel or bunny, because then they WOULDN'T have come back.

Say what you want about me as an owner, but it was an accident. Accidents DO happen. 

So, I hope after you make your decision NOT to neuter your dog that an accident never happens.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't care if a dog is intact or neutered - they shouldn't be left outside when the owners are not home. 

Even if you have a fenced yard that's fortressed... I think I read up above that neighbors can still unlock the gate?

ETA - I think the majority of the pics I've posted on here of my dog show him outside without a collar or leash on him. I'm not somebody who believes dogs should be kept in the house 90% of the time. Whether they are intact or not. I do believe the owner needs to be home and keeping tabs on their dogs if they are outside. Or outside WITH their dogs.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I can't imagine leaving a dog inside all day when they have a nice safe yard to play in neutered or not.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Fantapls wrote: Sometimes yes, vets may push it in scenarios that may not need it but you have to remember *veterinarians have to assume that every dog owner is NOT responsible * it's a whole different world owning and intact dog, and it shouldn't be taken lightly.

I think the above is really important. This is why we should really research our dogs vets and make sure that we are comfortable with their knowledge, bedside manner and that they will give full and accurate information not just half information so we can make the best decisions for our dogs. At the vet office my dog goes to there are 5 vets. I absolutely love three of them. There is one I have only met once so far so good. There is one that I would not have my dog see at all.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Mssjnnfer said:


> Hi! Mutilated woman here... I'm gonna post.
> 
> I believe in neutering. Why? Accidents happen.
> 
> ...


I agree accidents do happen. But im not going to neuter my dogs simply because the low chance an accident could happen. 



Megora said:


> I don't care if a dog is intact or neutered - they shouldn't be left outside when the owners are not home.


I think she means she leaves her spayed dogs outside unsupervised when shes home. Some peoples problem is that they have equivocated responsibility with the act of neutering - which, ironically, reduces the need for their own responsibility (some dont watch their dogs simply because they have been neutered). Objectively speaking, owners of intact dogs have to be more responsible than them because their dog is sexually intact.

I do have my dogs on Revolution and they do get blood work. I do NOT vaccinate myself (and I have yet to get sick) and I do NOT vaccinate my dogs past the 1 year boosters.


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## mayapaya (Sep 28, 2011)

I think the OP asked for the pros and the cons and I think they've been covered here, so I guess I will just offer my personal opinion that I would recommend neutering. And, I have probably wanted to make this statement about 10 times in the last few weeks, so I guess this thread will be as good as any. I for one really appreciate the people who take the time to post, and offer their humble opinions based on either personal experiences, expertise or simple beliefs, but it won't further validate or add any more credibility to your opinion by lambasting someone elses....


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

I am sorry of someon mistunderstood and thought I would ever, ever leave any of my dogs outside while I am away from the house. At this moment she is on the patio, the patio door open, all windows open.

Heck, if I am going to be gone for several, like 8-10 hours, I board her withg my vet. He has a great boarding area, with A/C, heting, they get exercised a couple of times a day, and come home smelling wonderful. and she loves him and all the techs.

She is not chipped, (tho I ma thinking about it), so she is never without her collar with her rabies, ID and license tags. I hae found the ownrs of two stray dogs thru rabies tags--jut vclled the vet and he contacted them.

I hadneighbors, the ones who are responsible for us getting our Honey, who watched their kids like hawks. The girl was 12 and not allowed outside unless ne of them wa with her. The boy, 15, was autistic and blind, so I could understand them always having an eye on him. But the girl just lived in the house. She had no friends. She was not even allowed to open the door when a well known fried of the family or neighbor came over--she would look thru the peep hole and thencall her mom or dad.

I could have never done that with sons, and I can not do that with my dog. She likes the freedome of being able to run and play in the yard. And I like knowing there has never been a chance of her having a litter of pups becuae she wasn't under my eye 24/7. But each to their own. You do what you think is best and if you opt for no "fix job", just hope no mistake is made over the many many years you have the dog.


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## 3goldens (Nov 7, 2011)

I have some views on the to neuter/spay or not.

I think any dog sold in a petstore should be neutered/spay, I think any dog coming out of a shelter or rescue should be neutered/spay, this goes for cats to.

I think it's a personal choice with one's own animal, and there are many responsible owners who do have absolute control over their intact animals, I'm ok with that.

I am not ok, with people who dont n/s and allow their animals to roam around the 'hood', breed indescriminately, ones who don't want to spend the money to do it.

But again, I'm all for responsible people owning intact animals if that is what they choose.

Unfortunately I think there are many irresponsible people, just by looking at whats in the shelters and rescues
Diane


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

3goldens said:


> I have some views on the to neuter/spay or not.
> 
> I think any dog sold in a petstore should be neutered/spay, I think any dog coming out of a shelter or rescue should be neutered/spay, this goes for cats to.
> 
> ...


I agree. But you have to admit not every accidental litter ends up in the shelter. The vast majority of the shelter population are from puppy mills and BYB's who breed every heat cycle, people who let their dog roam or just dont care to spend the money. 

I just dont like seeing the shelter population blamed solely on people who have an accidental litter...


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## 3goldens (Nov 7, 2011)

no I wasn't blaming the shelters or rescues on the overpopulation or irresponsible breeders, but I do think dogs going out of those arenas, should be n/s so as not to perpetuate the overpopulation.

And yes, I do think accidents happen, and there are many that do ensure those accidental puppies get a good home


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## vegasram (Mar 23, 2016)

Very new to this forum - have had 5 dogs over the last 25 years, all from pups - and they have all been neutered/spayed, but have never had a purebred before getting Cooper, who's now 5 months. (Aside - understand the popularity of Goldens - he's a great dog, as are all of yours I'm sure).

So I've done a lot of reading up on Goldens, including a lot of time on this forum (many thanks to all promising he (and we) would get through the "Cudjo" phase), and had no prior knowledge of the neutering vs. not debate. I've not completely made my mind up yet, but in either case, it will NOT be before he's at least a year old. Agree 100% that training is paramount - Roxy (black lab) passed a year ago, and she was a therapy dog, as Cooper will be eventually - but totally disagree with the position that those who don't fix their dogs are irresponsible. Obviously they're out there, but it shouldn't be an argument in guilting someone into doing something. 

Just my 2 cents - that's what keeps forums going, right?


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