# how to maintain a down stay



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

What have you done so far in the way of training?

When Danny, my tough one to teach down-stay because he is always up my butt wanting to make sure he doesn't miss anything, I would only take one step back and then treat him after the command. Then I stepped back further and further. I personally think that they key to success to a down-stay is to not release them unless you are standing right in front of them. If I want to be able to release from a distance (like on the agility course), I use "wait".


----------



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Lots of practice!

Leave in a stay... step back.... return and treat.... step back a bit farther.... return and treat.... step back not as far - stay close.... pause.... return and treat... step back... wait.... have someone else go in and treat for you...

Gradually fade out the amount of treats used. Continue to return intermittently and calmly pet, etc.

If treats make the dog too crazy, step in and calmly pet from the beginning. The trick is to not develop a pattern in how often you step in and reward or in how far you step back or how long you stay out.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am not sure if this is great advice, but it works well for my dogs: focusing on a release word to end sits and downs before teaching stay itself. A release word is also helpful so that your dog learns that there is a concrete time to break a stay and only that one word can do so. Our dogs learn "okay", one trainer we like uses "break", and our CGC class used "free". You can accidently undo the dog's early understanding of down/stay by letting the dog bounce up in excitement over the treat without a clear release. Also, not to get the whole conversation started again from the Joel thread, but a word that tells the dog he's doing the right thing (ala the clicker's click) is helpful for longer stays. We use the word "yes". When you start with the one step back, say yes before you step forward again and treat(and then use "okay" to release). It helps the dog know he/she is doing the right thing. Even from fifty feet away, yes will be very different for the dog than okay once she understands.


----------



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

OH, the other important tidbit... let's say you return to your dog, feed a treat and now want to release the dog b/c you're done... Try to wait 5-10 seconds after the treat before the release, otherwise the dog will come to anticipate being released everytime you give a treat and you lose the ability to go in and feed a treat along the way (w/o wanting to release the dog) as a way of saying, "good job.... keep up the great work..."


----------



## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

I second what Quiz said.


----------



## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

For me stays are two pieces of communications. Staying in postion is good and will be rewarded and moving in not ok. Like quiz said its about practice and consistancy.


----------



## Ruby'smom (Feb 4, 2008)

thanks everyone 
I shall start again from scratch and keep you posted


----------



## Miss Happy (Dec 22, 2007)

We adopted a 5-6 yr old golden @ 3 weeks ago who has not had any training. We are considering having a trainer work with her for stay, come, sit, etc. - is she too old? Miss Happy seems bright but shows anxiety. Should we wait until we've had her for a few months?


----------



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Sweet Katie said:


> We adopted a 5-6 yr old golden @ 3 weeks ago who has not had any training. We are considering having a trainer work with her for stay, come, sit, etc. - is she too old? Miss Happy seems bright but shows anxiety. Should we wait until we've had her for a few months?


 
You adopted her!! WooHOO Congratulations!

No she is not to old to learn, but try training with her yourself first, it will help build the bond between you and increase her confidence when she knows what you want her to do.


----------



## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

These are all good suggestions. Sometimes when we have dog on the set, they need to lay there for a while.. like 15 to 20 minutes, so I look for things. One thing that I look for, not with all dogs but some dogs, is watch their back hips when they lay there, and they tell you some things. Many times they will shift their weight a little one side or the other, and that is normally a good indication that the dog is understanding that he will be there for a bit, and getting comfortable in that position.


----------



## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

I don't have any further suggestions but I think going back to the drawing board is a good idea, as Ruby is obviously not getting it. I'm sorry she failed her test again, but I know you can do this!!!!

After all, the down stay could save their life one day...

Good luck, I know I need to work on some of these training ideas with my two.


----------



## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> I am not sure if this is great advice, but it works well for my dogs: focusing on a release word to end sits and downs before teaching stay itself. A release word is also helpful so that your dog learns that there is a concrete time to break a stay and only that one word can do so. Our dogs learn "okay", one trainer we like uses "break", and our CGC class used "free". You can accidently undo the dog's early understanding of down/stay by letting the dog bounce up in excitement over the treat without a clear release. Also, not to get the whole conversation started again from the Joel thread, but a word that tells the dog he's doing the right thing (ala the clicker's click) is helpful for longer stays. We use the word "yes". When you start with the one step back, say yes before you step forward again and treat(and then use "okay" to release). It helps the dog know he/she is doing the right thing. Even from fifty feet away, yes will be very different for the dog than okay once she understands.


I agree. I use the clicker and my 5 month old pup holds his sit and stay for up to 2 minutes. Its weird its almost as he goes into a trance...once he hears that click though he springs out of the stay. I am working now on consistency. Some times he lays down but still holds his stay. As for advice, I started with sit then stay and after 10 seconds would click and treat. I then just kept upping the stay time and clicking and treating. I now try and add some distance or distractions. I read somewhere (wish I could remember) that the stay command is one of the more difficult to teach as by nature dogs (pack dogs, wild dogs) that would stay would usually die. I don't know the credibility of the statement but it kinda makes sense.


----------



## goldensmum (Oct 23, 2007)

Super glue works well (sorry , only joking), Quinn drops sometimes from his sit stay, but if i put his backside against the wall in the hall then he will stay in the sit position.


----------



## Ruby'smom (Feb 4, 2008)

Ruby has been really off it the last couple of days so we are sure her season is starting but when she is having her mad tazz I am trying to fit in some training with her and we are starting from scratch with the down
we cant go to training for the next few weeks due to her season so Baz is going to go on his own lol
Joel I would love for Ruby to stay there long enough to get comfy but I am working on it 
she is not going to beat me on this one 
thanks everyone that has replied


----------



## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

Very cool.. you have to WIN....Just out of curiosity.. when you tell her to lie down and stay, how far are you away from her..... if you don't use the glue.. just kidding.. but how far away?


----------



## Ruby'smom (Feb 4, 2008)

at training we need to be 10 paces away for a minute to pass 
when she first went to training she would do the down stay and the sit stay perfectly but in the exam another dog owner shouted at his dog and she got up from her position to look see what was going on
but she has now decided she doesnt want to do her down stay at all
when training we did the sit stay off lead or holding on to the lead but a few paces away no problems but on test night we had to put her lead on the floor and walk away she goes mad for her lead because it means she is going for a walk so she couldnt resist and she picked it up and walked towards us 
so we know to get her to sit stay with her lead on is to not let her play with her lead so we think we can sort that one 
her down stay she refuses point blank to do it without a treat (no treats allowed in the exam) and she wont stay down longer than a second if she has to wait longer for her treat she just gets up and goes without 
any ideas on what to do next would be greatly apreciated


----------



## Ruby'smom (Feb 4, 2008)

forgot to add if Ruby is in a sit stay without her lead hubby has sat her in the garden and told her to stay and has come into the house looked for something and gone back out and she is still there waiting for him so I know she can do it 
she just likes to do it on her terms when she wants 
which as you will agree doesnt work in exams


----------



## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

Ok.. I understand ...I have had dogs like that before. You need to bring her to an area, and tell her to lie down and not leave until she understands. This is just the way I am.. I would totally just camp out. Seriously, my suggestion would be to just get close to her, have her lie down, and make her stay there for only about 5 to 7 seconds. If she gets up, it is essential that you are right next to her to make her lie down, and don't leave until she does it. You have to WIN. With a dog like this, I do not think it is about the TIME the dog is laying there. In your dog's head it's all about the fact that she just does not want to do it. 

Can I ask you a question. When you tell the dog to lie down, what do you say? Also, when some people give their dog a verbal cue, it is more of _asking_ than _telling_. On my website I don't have the lie down videos up yet, but that is a huge factor with some trainers. When you ask some dogs to lie down vs. tell the dog to lie down, that can play a big part.

On my "work away" behavior (the middle of the "watch Foster clips) on the front page of my site with Foster, listen to the way I say "lie down". It is telling and not asking. That can play a big part.

http://www.companionsforlife.net/


----------



## Ruby'smom (Feb 4, 2008)

thanks so much Joel
we say down to get her to lie down 
we have been told at training that we can be too soft with her 
so we shall work on telling her to lie down rather than asking 
thanks again


----------



## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

Ruby'smom said:


> thanks so much Joel
> we say down to get her to lie down
> we have been told at training that we can be too soft with her
> so we shall work on telling her to lie down rather than asking
> thanks again


I think if they told you that they might have seen the same thing that I see sometimes with dog owners. It's kind of funny.. they will say, "lie down?".. kind of like a question.... and I always laugh and say the dog responds by saying, "..ummm....no".


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

JoelSilverman said:


> Seriously, my suggestion would be to just get close to her, have her lie down, and make her stay there for only about 5 to 7 seconds.
> 
> http://www.companionsforlife.net/


I learned the "down stay" and the "stay" on Good Dog U! LOL


----------



## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm no training expert by any means, thank goodness my dog is naturally good! Haha, most of the time :

When I was training her when she was young, I found it very helpful to watch her eyes. Her eyes told me a lot. I could always tell when she was "thinking" about coming out of a stay or a down and I would catch her just before and reward her, even if it was just a few seconds.


----------



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I often start teaching relaxed down stays by giving the dog something to occupy himself during the stay - like a peanut butter kong. Now the dog has a reason to *want* to stay down and I'm setting the dog up for success. It's worked very well in my classes and a lot of dogs naturally end up in the on-the-hip, relaxed position while working on their bone. It's also not been a problem at all to generalize the behavior to the absence of the kong.

Another tip - in the beginning, practice your stays when the dog is already a bit tired. Makes life easier on everyone!


----------



## Ruby'smom (Feb 4, 2008)

JoelSilverman said:


> I think if they told you that they might have seen the same thing that I see sometimes with dog owners. It's kind of funny.. they will say, "lie down?".. kind of like a question.... and I always laugh and say the dog responds by saying, "..ummm....no".


Joel that is soooooooooo true you can just tell by her expression that she isnt going to do it, yes it is funny but VERY frustrating :doh:

today after her morning walk I got her to do a sit stay with her lead on the ground and she just sat there as if she has been doing it for always 
I released her from the stay and she went to go for the lead while I was taking it off and I said leave and she did so I can see that one being sorted 

as for the down stay we did exactly as you suggested FlyingQuizini ( sorry dont know your "real" name ) she has been off her food but will usually eat a chocolate rodeo bar so I got her to sit and then said down with the treat, said stay waited a few seconds gave her the treat which takes her a good few seconds to eat and said thats a good stay Ruby and she lay there for ages even after eating it quite comfy 
I can see I shall have to be more firm with her 
I know she is my babe but we are wrapped good and proper round her little furry toes :curtain:


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

It's nice to put all the training tips together and find what works for you and your pup! Sometimes it's a combination of things.


----------



## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

Steph, why do they get you to leave the lead on the floor near the dog? in real life you would never do this, I've always been told to drape it around my neck and under my arm so it doesn't interfere when working my dogs, obviously on walks I just either drape it around my neck or tuck it in a pocket, dont want to give muggers a helping hand, lol.

to reinforce sit/down stays I've also always been taught that while your dog is still on lead but in the stay position, to step to the side, and slowly but gradually walk around them, reinforcing the stay every now and again or as needed, as my dogs have become more confident I have moved further and further away, till I can leave the room for any length of time, my trainer use to also walk around the class bouncing a tennis ball, but only once she knew my dog was "bomb proof"


----------



## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

I train exactly the same way & I have had EXCELLENT success with all of my furbabies. In all of my years of trialling, I only had one go down on a sit-stay! I'm presently getting my golden "granddaughter", Riley, for Novice. She wasn't trained in this manner & isn't reliable so we've gone right back to square one and it's working! So, if it works, don't try to fix it!



FlyingQuizini said:


> Lots of practice!
> 
> Leave in a stay... step back.... return and treat.... step back a bit farther.... return and treat.... step back not as far - stay close.... pause.... return and treat... step back... wait.... have someone else go in and treat for you...
> 
> ...


----------



## Soda (Feb 23, 2008)

Great training advise here!! I would like to add one little thing. Dogs are very situational and don't generalize skills. In other words what they learn in the kitchen stays in the kitchen. 

I try to make it a point to train the same behavior in 5 different locations. When they've mastered this I then up the ante and put in extra distractions. If the dog shows me they can't be successful with the distractions then I take a step back and add distractions more gradually. I have to say that to me rock hard stays are the second most important thing beside "come" and can be lifesaving at times. 

Good for you to not give up and to keep working on this!


----------



## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

Kimm said:


> I learned the "down stay" and the "stay" on Good Dog U! LOL


Who was that funny looking guy who showed you????


----------



## Ruby'smom (Feb 4, 2008)

mist said:


> Steph, why do they get you to leave the lead on the floor near the dog? in real life you would never do this, I've always been told to drape it around my neck and under my arm so it doesn't interfere when working my dogs


I dont really know 
I guess it is so that you could leave them outside a shop for example when they are on lead 
I dont honestly know I shall ask next time we go training 

after re reading your post I wasnt sure whether you realised the lead was still attatched to the dog when we did this 
when the lead isnt on the dog we have been told to put it in our pocket or attatch it to us in some way so that it doesnt interfere with the dog


----------



## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

Oh OK, lol, I thought you removed it and then put it on the floor infront of the dog lol. when we first started stays I use to drape the lead over the dogs back, so I'd have an easy grab handle, lol


----------

