# Why is "Sit" so hard?



## Sophiesmom (Jun 25, 2008)

I have a new baby, a 2 1/2 year old female Sophie. She is sweet but does weigh 90#'s (we are working on that too) and needs house manners.
I've been trying to teach her to sit but she will not do it. I tried holding the treat in front of her nose and slowly moving it over her head but all she does is back up or eat my hand.
She will sit if I push on her hips, but Im not sure if she is getting it.  Her eyes are saying ball ball ball ball ball wheres my ball!!:bowl: and yes I tried with the ball also. Any tips... I'm waiting to get her shot record from her "other mother" and then I'm taking her to class but all we have is a petsmart.


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Hummm.....I used to raise Ike's head and he would back up a step and then sit. Maybe practice raising her head at the same time you're pressing her hind end down? It's harder when they are larger than a pup. I'm sure someone will have the advice you need. Good luck.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Welcome! It's good you are going to an obedience class. They should be alot of help.
I don't have any new suggestions , maybe some of the trainers will see it.
Good Luck and post pics!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

By any chance does she have any "show" training? I remember when I visited Tucker's Breeders. Tucker's Mom came out and I said, "Do you know sit?" The breeder said, "No, she doesn't know sit." I thought, "That's strange." I guess "sit" is sometimes a command learned later.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Sometimes it helps to lure into a down and then bring up to a sit... that way the dog is still being paid for butt on the ground. After a bit of practice, it's then easier for them to make the connection that they can assume the butt-on-ground position directly from a stand.


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

My rescue, Tysen could not learn sit for his life when I first got him. My trainer told me instead of pushing down on his rear end to "scoop" Tysen's rear end instead. Scoop your hand down Sophie's backside starting from about the tailbone down until you hit the back of the legs. While doing this we also cut back on Tysen's food intake because he was overweight making him not very interested in the food. After what seemed like forever of doing the same thing over and over he just kinda "got it". Just keep after it! Good Luck


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Sophiesmom said:


> I have a new baby, a *2 1/2 year old* female Sophie. She is sweet *but does weigh 90#'s* (we are working on that too) and needs house manners.
> I've been trying to teach her to sit but she will not do it. I tried holding the treat in front of her nose and slowly moving it over her head but all she does is back up or eat my hand.
> She will sit if I push on her hips, but Im not sure if she is getting it.


You're not dealing with a puppy, as you know. Treat training is a terrific way to get obedience started with little ones. But older dogs, especially large older ones, often need a bit more convincing.

A leash, a prong collar, and a heeling stick - all judiciously used, will amaze you with this 2 1/2 year old. Do you have a nearby retriever club, or pro trainer (fieldwork pro)?

EvanG


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

EvanG said:


> You're not dealing with a puppy, as you know. Treat training is a terrific way to get obedience started with little ones. But older dogs, especially large older ones, often need a bit more convincing.
> 
> 
> 
> EvanG


There are lots of ways to train a dog. The laws of learning however, apply to animals of all ages. They will either work to achive good things (positive training) or work to avoid unpleasant things (aversive training).


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> There are lots of ways to train a dog. The laws of learning however, apply to animals of all ages. They will either work to achive good things (positive training) or work to avoid unpleasant things (aversive training).


Or both. But do you honestly think this dog is refusing to sit because she doesn't know how yet?

What I'm suggesting is that this owner train this dog, not some ideal eternal puppy. This is an older dog getting a late start.

Adjust the training to suit the dog regards,

EvanG


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## Cam's Mom (Apr 13, 2007)

*All dogs sit!!!!!!* Wait untill she does, then praise her saying something like good sit (emphasis on the SIT)and give her a treat. Praise her as often as you can when she sits...ignore other things she does for a while. Eventualy she'll figure out that she gets attention from you *only* if she sits. Once she does you can try saying "sit" as she plops her butt down...you'll have to be atttentive to catch that action...then praise her and treat! Once you've caught her in the act of sitting a few times, and she appears to link the word sit with what she's doing, try saying SIT, give her a few moments to respond and start praising her if she even begins to move her butt towards the ground. Gosh this sounds long on paper!!

If you have free day, try setting it aside to work with her for five or ten minutes several times that day.I'll bet you have success in a couple of hours!

If you've ever used clicker training then this is a good time to revamp it. If not I'd highly recommend it. A lot of rehomed dogs have very negative associations with training/obedience. Most at best have been trianed to ignore commands. Few have ever been trained with a clicker, so it's a completely new experience, and it gets results very quickly.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

EvanG said:


> Or both. But do you honestly think this dog is refusing to sit because she doesn't know how yet?
> 
> What I'm suggesting is that this owner train this dog, not some ideal eternal puppy. This is an older dog getting a late start.
> 
> ...


Like Cam's Mom said, all dogs know *how* to sit. We're just teaching them to do it on cue, when we wish for the behavior to happen.

I just don't believe that "adjust the training to suit the dog" requires the use of aversives such as prong collars and heeling sticks. Yes, they will work - no argument there, but I don't agree that just b/c the dog is getting a late start, that reinforcement-based methods won't be effective.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Like Cam's Mom said, all dogs know *how* to sit. We're just teaching them to do it on cue, when we *wish* for the behavior to happen.


Some dogs are quite content to let the owner _wish_ for them to behave. She mentioned that her dog wasn't. If she formalizes the training, "sit" will be a command, not a request. That will be up to the owner/trainer to decide.


FlyingQuizini said:


> I just don't believe that "adjust the training to suit the dog" requires the use of aversives such as prong collars and heeling sticks. Yes, they will work - no argument there, but I don't agree that just b/c the dog is getting a late start, that reinforcement-based methods won't be effective.


And that is your choice to believe. Each dog is different, and has a different history and temperament. 30+ years of training retrievers has provided me with a broad view of them, and a flexible attitude toward their training.

EvanG


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## Cam's Mom (Apr 13, 2007)

> If she formalizes the training, "sit" will be a command, not a request.


I agree with that part...but not how to go about it. I've never met a dog yet that doesn't respond to positive rather than coersive training. It is still formal, just a different approach. If I ask my dogs to sit, it's instant, but I've never put a hand or collar on them to get it. And I can't think of a dog that took more than 1/2 a day to GET IT reliably at any age. I agree having grown up with one approach it's difficult to change. Coersive training shows a lack of compassion and creativity on the part of the trainer! 

We are more intellignet than dogs. We should be using our intelligence only to coerce.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Cam's Mom said:


> I agree with that part...but not how to go about it. I've never met a dog yet that doesn't respond to positive rather than coersive training. It is still formal, just a different approach. If I ask my dogs to sit, it's instant, but I've never put a hand or collar on them to get it. And I can't think of a dog that took more than 1/2 a day to GET IT reliably at any age. I agree having grown up with one approach it's difficult to change. Coersive training shows a lack of compassion and creativity on the part of the trainer!
> 
> We are more intellignet than dogs. We should be using our intelligence only to coerce.


I prefer to think in terms of cues for behaviors rather than commands. The reality is that dogs ALWAYS have a choice. When I "cue" a sit, I indicate to my dog that when he complies, something good will happen. In the beginning, the something good is often food, but not for very long. I have instant sits in my dogs the vast majority of the time. No* dog is perfect.* Training can easily be an exchange of reinforcers. I cue sit any my dog complies -- I get the satisfaction of seeing butt on floor, he gets a smile and a good dog. It was a pleasant exchange for both of us.

When one "commands" sit, the implication is that it's "do it or else". (Do it or else I'll pop on the leash, or else I'll push on your butt, or else I'll say it again and this time I'll sound angry, etc.)


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