# Harry and his basic obedience class



## Kelbys'Dad (Jan 19, 2009)

Harry completed his second week of basic obedience last night, and I think he is doing well so far. He is still interested in what is going on around him instead of the task at hand, and at nine months I would imagine this is normal. But I think he is doing okay.

At the end of class the instructor took him to demonstrate next weeks tasks of sit/stay, the sit/stay and circle while sitting, sit/stay and drop the lead, and sit/stay and crouch in front. He did everything correctly on the first try (and surprised the instructor) except the sit/stay and crouch in front, where he did get up on the first attempt, but stayed in his sit on the second one. Pretty good I think for the second week.

My question I have is this particular trainer does not believe in treat rewards for the positive reinforcement. He feels treats only create a robot dog and don't result in a dog that responds because they want to. I am by my own admission a beginner in dog training. But reading and research that I have done has led me to believe that more trainers use the treat rewards than do the "touch/good dog" as a reward for good behavior. I want this guy to enjoy his training and to have good results from his work. And I don't want to unintentionally break his spirit either. Naturally I want him to work with his head held high. 

So what do you think? In your opinions, does the non-treat rewarding of good behavior give as good as results as any other method?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Only if your dog is as motivated by praise as he is by food (a few dogs are). I instantly disagree with any trainer who thinks dogs should obey "just because" they are dogs or because they should just want to please. Dogs do what works- would you go to work all day without pay just because you "should want to" please your boss? Maybe... lol but I bet you wouldn't, and if you did, you may not work as hard!  There isn't anything wrong with working for something. Same with dogs. Dogs should eventually perform without the reward, but even IMO a fully trained dog should be rewarded often. 

I wouldn't necessarily quit the class, but I would train at home on my own a lot with treats and toys or whatever Harry likes, and I would see if I could reach a compromise with the trainer.

IMO dogs are ALWAYS working for something- either food/toy/praise or the "reward" of avoiding a correction/collar yank. Obviously the dogs working for positive rewards are generally going to give a more upbeat performance.

JMO


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

PS if your dog is more interested in things going on around him, it's a sure sign you (your rewards) are not exciting enough. The biggest secret to training IMO is being more fun and exciting than anything else in the room.


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## Kelbys'Dad (Jan 19, 2009)

I need to add that I am in no way criticizing the trainers' methods. We had taken classes with him before, and he is a good guy and a good trainer. 

I am just searching for ways to get the best results we can. And like was mentioned, maybe a compromise between the two methods.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I used food treats consistently when I was training Daisy in her first year. After she had the commands down really well, food treats became more random of course.

I have to say that the things Daisy learned when she was 4-6 months old, using food rewards, are rock solid with her now. Rewards are not even necessary anymore, though I always give praise and occasionally a treat.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Alternate with yummy treats and super praise when you practice so at class, it works!
I am so glad training is going so well!!!!!

Does Harry seem to be happy to please? 
Both my boys are so it has never been a problem but Max(who was my hard head) needed the great treats for regular obedience training but for retrieving: HA!!!! He was in HEAVEN just to retrieve whatever it was! LOL!

Good Luck!!! Please keep us updated!!!


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## Kelbys'Dad (Jan 19, 2009)

Debles said:


> Alternate with yummy treats and super praise when you practice so at class, it works!
> I am so glad training is going so well!!!!!
> 
> Does Harry seem to be happy to please?
> ...


I gotta tell you we have seen quite a change in the boy. He is a lot more active....running around looking for trouble (partial thanks go to Riley), and is quite the ornery puppy now. He is testing himself with my wife...... biting her butt, grabbing her clothes, etc. I just laugh, because he won't do that with me. We know it's just his age, and our first Golden did the very same thing with my wife. Kinda deja vu.......:roflmao:
But of course we are working on that "bad" behavior.

He seems to be a very happy pup....and sometimes it's difficult to remember the big horse is still just a pup. We're luvin him!


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## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

We always used treats in class, but I do see your trainer's point. Take the camera to the next class! It sounds like he is doing fantastic!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I agree with Deb about treats and praise. Thanks for being so wonderful in adopting this pupper!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

The trainer has a valid point that a treat-only approach can create its own problems, but it does have major advantages. You want praise and treats to be conditionally paired, so you can have the best of both worlds. Treating and praising at the same time for good behavior adds weight to the praising in the long term, so why not get the best of both worlds?


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

I agree with both of Aqua's posts 100%. I'm just not as interesting with out treats as the other dogs in the class, only one of mine has ever worked for praise alone, the other three are food driven, at first i give treats constantly only once I have an action totally down pat do I start alternating and giving the treat less and less often till it's no longer needed it


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Good for Harry! I'm glad he's doing well! 

I was always told, start with treats as a positive reinforcement and wean them off. I'm not a big treat giver for any reason ( = FAT ) but when training, yes, in the beginning. He'll learn- he's a smart boy! Training is a learned behavior, whether the reward is food, an atta-boy, a pat on the head, a high five or a big hug and kiss!


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Sam is VERY food motivated and would not have learned ANY basic obedience things unless treats were involved. I think whatever works best for your dog is what you should do.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I didn't mean if you use treats sometimes and only praise sometimes that you wouldn't praise with the treat also! Praise Praise praise is ALWAYS a BIG DEAL to rewarding wanted behavior!!!
That cracks me up about him biting your wife's butt! You'd think he was a pony!!! LOL!


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

Treats are very motivational for most goldens (since the vast majority are food *****s), so I believe that praise and treats get the best results in the shortest amount of time. You can always reduce the need for treats as the behaviors become rock solid. Great to hear Harry is working out so well, even if he is a butt-biting pup!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

It's all a matter of preference. I have to admit I've been stuck on treats before because they are easy and get quick results, but this great trainer I am working with has given me a lot of food for thought on the issue. Mainly that a part of training can be shaping attitude and bringing out a dog's natural willingness to please--instead of assuming they have it or they don't--you actually bring it out. If you use lots of treats the dog isn't working for you, he's working for the food. And it is very sad when you are working with a dog and you reach out to pet and praise the dog and the dog pulls away because that is not what he wants, what he wants is the food. 'Course, I think that is more common with overuse of treats than just the general use of treats. I dunno--I'm still chewing over the idea of training my puppy's basic obedience commands without treats (I get her next month!). It just takes longer, and I figure for refinement I will use treats...


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## Kelbys'Dad (Jan 19, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> And it is very sad when you are working with a dog and you reach out to pet and praise the dog and the dog pulls away because that is not what he wants, what he wants is the food.


I have seen this on occasion and it somewhat disturbs me when they do this.



> 'Course, I think that is more common with overuse of treats than just the general use of treats. I dunno--I'm still chewing over the idea of training my puppy's basic obedience commands without treats (I get her next month!). It just takes longer, and I figure for refinement I will use treats...


Congrats on the new pup! I can imagine you are very excited!


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

I used treats and high praise. The treat motivated the correct response and the high praise congratulated the correct response. Eventually it became the praise that my boys wanted. Maybe because they were both so people oriented. I will say that Ike is the harder headed of my 2. Sam was quickly off of the treat and all about the praise. Ike still needs reinforcement training from time to time and I use food to get his full and undivided attention.

Good luck with figuring out what works best for you.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think that it's important to remember that treats and praise, used properly, reinforce each other as motivators. When a dog gets a yummy treat along with a "good boy," the treat helps him associate even more good feelings with the "good boy." Used in tandem, they're a powerful positive tool.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I have a dog who is not interested in treats, and praise sure doesn't cut it for advanced obedience, and he's a Whippet so corrections just break him down, even tiny ones. This is when you have to get really creative, and cook fancy treats, and only do a few commands per session (he loses interest in even the most amazing treat, like steak, after a few bites). He is extremely highly trained, and was at a young age, but it took figuring out what WOULD motivate him to get us there. One dog is not better than another because he happens to be one of the rare ones that will work all day at real serious obedience just for a few kind words... such a dog is very rare.


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