# The "Field" golden vs "Show" golden smack-down! Be there!



## Kandy (Mar 13, 2007)

I, personally, find it unfortunet that the so-called "field" Golden and "show" Golden so noticably different types of Goldens, when in fact, if breeders are to keep the the AKC's breed standard, any true-to-type Golden should be one in the same. I hate the terms field and show when used to describe different lines or types or body shapes. I do my best to breed for a well-rounded dog that meets the AKC's breed standard in every way; temperament, conformation, any everything else a Golden SHOULD be.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

I don't mind these conversations, because I do find them informative... I just hope that we can keep it friendly.....


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

But by breeding to a standard, form simply becomes and 'end' unto itself serving no useful purpose other than to be 'looking good' for the judge. Shouldn't the standard at least have some performance requirement in it... like say, making the dog actually retrieve something to prove there is some retrieving drive in the genetics of a "Retriever!" The majority of Goldens down at our dog park don't retrieve... isn't that odd for a breed with "Retriever" for a last name.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

I think I might have asked the question before--about the differences in the 'lines'--but it never seems to get a whole bunch of response when asked directly for some reason--some how it always comes out accidentally and passionately.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

njb said:


> I think I might have asked the question before--about the differences in the 'lines'--but it never seems to get a whole bunch of response when asked directly for some reason--some how it always comes out accidentally and passionately.


The best example I have is my two dogs... Samson is definitely from a field line, where Cosmo is show....


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

As long as the dogs got four legs a tail and a loving personailty, dont matter to me...lol.

Are field goldens always darker in color...??

Forget what I said above...lol I don't even care if the dog has a tail, those little nubs are cute!!! hehehe


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

RickGibbs said:


> The best example I have is my two dogs... Samson is definitely from a field line, where Cosmo is show....


Which makes Cosmo's story even more maddening---at least for me.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

No expert here but I will try my best...

The physical appearance... fields have longer legs (proportionally) and thinner coats, relatively speaking has thinner bones and longer muzzles. Show dog have been evolving much heavier bones especially in the legs, huge paws and relatively larger and wider heads with a more pronounce stop and shorter muzzle... the look is sometimes referred to as "blocky"... also very thick and showy coats are becoming prized in the ring.

The non-appearance differences have to do with energy levels and retrieving drive and persistance... with the field dogs having more of everything... which is not always a good thing in a pet dog.


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## Kandy (Mar 13, 2007)

Conformation is just one area of competition that is aimed to prove a dog's qualities. The point to showing in confomation is to show that your dog is put together well--as it was intended. Retrieving ability is another area of competition. One proves form, the other function, drive, & ability. I don't particularly like how many breeders who show think they have proven theri dog is breeding quality simply because it's pretty. Beauty isn't everything. Brains should count for something. Almost any breeder, good, bad, or otherwise, sells most of their pups to pet homes where they are nto expected to be shown or hunted with, however, I'll bet my paycheck that the families who own these "pet" still want a smart, social, & trainable dog. When breeders just show and don't participate in other forms of competition such as field or obedience, teh result becomes a pretty, yet boarding and even relatvely difficult dog. Yet when you buy from a field or obedience breeder you get a higher energy dog intelligent dog that maybe isn't so pretty. That's why I prefer a well rounded pedigree. If I see that a dog comes from good show, field, & obedience breeders, you can almost guarantee that dog will not only excel at almost anything, but that it will be pretty, it will be smart, and it will be responsive to training. What more could a pet owner ask for????


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

goldens are such wonderful dogs that they will always be bred for reasons other than function. there are a precious few breeders trying to maintain the function in them.. most of the really good lines have become too tightly bred with all the resulting problems that come from that... health problems with shorter lives....
some are taking the chances and doing some outcrossing that will hopefully address those issues.. dixie is from such an outcross... 
the competitive retrieving venues are dominated by the labrador retriever.. the golden runs a distant second with the remaining breeds (Chessie, flat coat, etc) following behind... 
the following is my opinion.. most all field trial and many of the hunt test retrievers are trained and handled by pro trainers... the lab fits much better into this lifestyle.. a stable of dogs in a kennel at night and on a truck all day.. 
the field goldens have the same personality as the rest of them... i love the personality and it is why i beat my head against the wall competing with the waves and waves of labs... but we have our days.. 
the guy I bought dixie from has raised and trained 3 golden AFC's in recent years... he has got out of the breeding business... he just trains and runs his dogs... 
it takes a special dog to compete at that level regardless of the breed. 
if you ever get a chance to see a retriever field trial or hunt test go watch the open, amateur, master, or finished stake and see what these amazing animals are capable of. you might just get hooked on the stuff...then you will be like me and spend all your time, money, and energy chasing those field titles..


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

oh yeah...and if you go out and train hard every day your pup will come home at night and curl up in his/her chair and be quiet the rest of the night.. but they will still bring you that **** tennis ball to throw and ride in the back seat and stick their head out the window to beg at dairy queen....


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

But can a dog be good at everything and still be tied to an appearance standard? And why shouldn't we have a 'pet' line of Golden Retrievers... a smaller dog who will fetch (but not obsessively so), lower energy since most dog owners really don't like having to exercise their dog every day, less coat (less brushing, less shedding)... the rest of things people want in a pet the Goldens already have, like loving dispositions... and things that probably need to be bred back into the breed... like good health: less allergies, no CHD, etc.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

monomer, i couldn't agree more.. and I have stated as much on this forum before.. there is a negative connotation associated with the term "pet quality golden".. and that should not be.. good pet goldens should be as valuable as the show and field lines.. 
i will disagree with the stereotype that all field goldens are hyper.. i am on my 4th and they do get pretty excited when ducks are falling, but they have all been very well behaved in the house.... 
i would love to see a breeder actually advertise "pet quality goldens" and go for just the qualities you mentioned.... health, temprament, tractibility, self confidence.. all the things that folks want in their dogs.... 
the problem is that most of the knowlegeable breeders are in one camp or the other..either show or field.... 
those in the business know that genius bred to genius does not always produce genius ... you are looking for what clicks and consistancy... 
a mix of show and field breeding will usually produce a show dog, a field dog, an ugly dog that wont retrieve a duck, and on and on..it just isnt that simple to produce a pup that has both the standard look and the field drive... there may be one pup in such a breeding that has it all....


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## DUSTYRD2 (Feb 28, 2007)

I too hate the "show" vs "field" terms. We firmly believe that they can and should do both and if they can't do the field, agility, obedience, then they shouldn't be in the conformation ring either. Unfortunately, we are in the minority and are often ostracized for our beliefs. Yes Dusty is showy and has an impressive show career, but he can hold his own in the field with the labs and the "field" goldens. Big feet, blocky head and all his furnishings. He's a strong and powerful dog in the field. He loves to work in the field as much as he loves to go in to show ring. I think that most breeders that do conformation only, just don't have the time, money or the interest in field or obedience. And the majority of the pups they sell go to pet homes who have no interest in any of it anyway. That doesn't mean the dogs natural instincts are not there. Dusty was sold to us a pet only on a non-breeding contract. The breeder lifted the non-breeding, once we got his CH title and all his clearances. Dusty has a good number of versatile dogs behind him, show and working combined. His pups, while they are hitting the show ring now, will be doing agility, obedience and field work later on. And we have one of his sons, Nugget, who we've been training in field work for some months now. (He's taking time off for his movie shoot though LOL). Now both of Nuggets parents are "show" champions and on his mother's side there are no field titles at all. Doesn't mean she can't, her owner just didn't. Nugget shows all the instincts of a typical retriever, plus has the great temperment to boot.
Granted, I do know there are goldens out there that just have no desire to retrieve, but I think they are the exception, not the rule. Of the thousands of goldens that are sold every year, how many are sold as pets to owners who have no desire to compete in anything. That surely doesn't mean the dog doesn't have the ability, merely that he's not listed in K9database because he has no titles.
We are seeing in our club, some of the "fielders" starting to show their dogs and this is most encouraging. Maybe if more people from field would do the same we could stop this distinction and if more conformation did field too. I have seen the so called field types win a shows too. So the bottom line is for us, we don't care what they look like, they should be able to do both.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

But at one time there were dual champions... so what happened? The standard didn't change... Did conformation somehow drift away from the goldens of yesteryear or has field type goldens also manage to change as well?

As far as establishing a 'best for pet' line... I think that would be a marvelous niche for a breeder but I feel its too adventurous for most and regardless what anyone says at the end of the day you gotta sell those pups for at least what you got into them. I think it would take a lot of knowledge in genetics, meticulous records keeping, and a huge investment in time (especially to breed back in the health aspect) and a huge money investment up front.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Maybe I'm not understanding this right but I believe there are certain physical traits (as well as mental attitude) that preclude a Golden from competing at the top levels in both field and show. For instance, I would assume a heavy, thick showy coat that conformation judges would love will just hinder a dog trying to cut through water as well as the added weight coming out of the water (as it won't drain as quickly) and sap both energy and speed from the dog... pure physics. Larger bone than necessary will add weight that would be more useful in a retrieve if it were leg muscle... etc. So in the final analysis a 'show' Golden just isn't built to compete at the top levels in the field even if the drive and instincts have survived the breeding process it took to get the 'look' right.

I do neither field nor show but I've observed some and I'm trying to draw logical conclusions here...


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## KatzNK9 (Feb 27, 2007)

OK, I probably don't belong in this thread but I'm reading it with lots of interest. As a novice golden owner ... having my first ever & he's only 11 months old, I would love to see some pics of different dogs along with critique on the different looks & structure.

I'm curious as to how my dog stacks up in comparison to field variety or conformation standard (not that it matters to me in the slightest ... just curious).

My curiosity comes from 20 years of breeding show cats & being very familiar with all cat breed standards but having limited knowledge to dog breed standards.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

What is really confusing is that it seems that 'show' type goldens are not breed to fulfill what they were breed to do in the first place--so--if they are not built for what they are breed to do--how in the Sam Hill are they considered top of the line? 

You would think that dogs that fulfill their breeding/nature would be more valued. 

I am guessing politics with what the judges like might be part of the answer.


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## Kandy (Mar 13, 2007)

On the contrary...the AKC's standard for conformation is based on the dog's function. The dog has a specific look, size, build, coat, etc for optimum performance. Therefor, a show dog should be just as good in the field as long as is has the drive and training as well. The form of the dog is based on it's function. 

Also, why don't breeders specialize in a pet line? Because a well bred, well rounded Golden makes an excellent pet--at least for people who love Goldens. Why can't a Golden look good,have the drive to hunt, and still make a great family pet too? 

My dogs hunt, show, and do obedience, and most of my pups are sold just a pets, and I can't tell you how many compliments I get from my customers that my dogs are not only beautiful, but they are also really smart, easy to train, and not overactive. Just enough energey to interact with the family, play ball with the kids, and swim in the lake in the summer, and still settle down with you to watch tv and relax. That's my goal as a breeder--A beautful, well-formed, Golden capable of being an excellent hunting parter, show dog, or family pet. In fact, I have sold many that are used for therapy work. And, my dogs are healthy too. All have passing health clearances, and we don't do tight linebreedings. In fact, most breedings are outcrossed. I don't believe you have to linebreed to have a good line. As longs as the parents are all healthy, have true Golden temperaments, correct conformation, and hunting ability than why wouldn't their pup's line bred or not???


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Something we never discuss in these threads, is how hunting has changed, and the hunting dogs of today, are nothing like their ancestors. Early in the last century, the dogs were used by commercial hunters. During that time, waterfowl was so plentiful, that commercial hunters, (just like commercial fisherman) where able to make a living by hunting. At that time, they mounted zero gauge shotguns on the front of their boats. There was no sportsman-like behavior, because it was a commercial endeavor. The hunters would raft their boats into a flock settled on the water, and start to fire away. Note also, that this was done at night, not during the day.

The dogs were then released to do their work. They would literally retrieve hundreds of birds. Todays bag limits have changed a days work to retrieving five birds. Hardly a challenge for any working dog. The standard was based on retrieving hundreds of birds, not half a dozen.

I have great respect for any well trained bird dog. However, today's hunting is hardly proof of any physical prowess. To discount the capabilities of a show dog, based on another dogs ability to retrieve five birds is hardly fair.

In addition, most casual observers see a conformation show simply as a beauty contest. This can not be any further from the truth. Most show dogs (just like hunting dogs) are in top physical condition. Are some conformation breeders ruining the breed? Yes they are! But to discount the entire venue because of the actions of few, is hardly fair IMHO. There are also many producers of field dogs that can be said to be ruining the breed also. They are producing many of the same genetic problem through in-breeding.

BTW.. I participate in both venues (and I was also an avid hunter in my younger days).


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

So if hunting is hardly a prowess,why don't we see more show dog dog it.
It's great that you do both but why don't other people do it,too?.
I won't judge either or cos i don't know better.I believe my golden is a field golden cos this is how people describe her.She is certaintlyno show dog but I love her and is perfect for my family.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

I think you need to read my post again. I said it hardly proves any physical prowess due to bag limits etc. But then again, either does conformation. The participants in either venue know what kind of shape their dogs are in.

Why don't people with show dogs participate in field trials? Well, why don't people with field dogs participate in conformation? I think the answer is obvious. Participating in either one of these venues is so time and effort consuming, that doing two becomes nearly impossible. Consider also, the financial requirements of either of these sports, and I think you have the answer. A typical field or hunting trial costs $60.00. A typical conformation show is thirty dollars plus many other expenses. Not a small amout of cash for most participants.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

greg bell said:


> monomer, i couldn't agree more.. and I have stated as much on this forum before.. there is a negative connotation associated with the term "pet quality golden".. and that should not be.. good pet goldens should be as valuable as the show and field lines..
> i will disagree with the stereotype that all field goldens are hyper.. i am on my 4th and they do get pretty excited when ducks are falling, but they have all been very well behaved in the house....
> i would love to see a breeder actually advertise "pet quality goldens" and go for just the qualities you mentioned.... health, temprament, tractibility, self confidence.. all the things that folks want in their dogs....
> the problem is that most of the knowlegeable breeders are in one camp or the other..either show or field....
> ...



Greg,

I couldn't agree with you more. That is basically what I breed for. My Goldens are not show dogs, nor are they field champs. But we do hunt with them when we have time. I breed for health and temperament first and foremost. Those are the most important qualities in my program. My dogs love to retrieve, but they love to just hang out with a person too. I have been told on numerous occasions that my puppies are very calm also.

Becky


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

monomer said:


> Maybe I'm not understanding this right but I believe there are certain physical traits (as well as mental attitude) that preclude a Golden from competing at the top levels in both field and show. For instance, I would assume a heavy, thick showy coat that conformation judges would love will just hinder a dog trying to cut through water as well as the added weight coming out of the water (as it won't drain as quickly) and sap both energy and speed from the dog... pure physics. Larger bone than necessary will add weight that would be more useful in a retrieve if it were leg muscle... etc. So in the final analysis a 'show' Golden just isn't built to compete at the top levels in the field even if the drive and instincts have survived the breeding process it took to get the 'look' right.
> 
> I do neither field nor show but I've observed some and I'm trying to draw logical conclusions here...


I think one could train a german shepherd to go pick up your duck that is 50 yd away... most of what makes a good hunting/trial/hunt test dog is on the inside of the dog.. an absolute love of birds and hunting is foremost the tractibility and intellegence.. they need keen eyesight and a good nose... 

dixie would be laughed out of the show ring... she really would... she is way under standard.. but I have seen, judged, trained with, and competed against many folks from the show venues... sorry, but while their dogs will go out and pick up a duck, they just dont have that inside stuff to allow them to really get into the advanced work... i cant say zero...there is currently a dual canadian champion... believe me, if show type dogs really had the stuff to compete in the field venues, the trialers would be beating down the doors to get them... you just cannot look at a dog and determine if it has the "stuff" do really do the field events at a high level.. just isn't possible..


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

several of you mention the fact that breeders should go for both..the standard as well as the function.. the problem is that very few people are willing to really shell out the cash for a risk taker..
I know that i put a ton of money and training into what i do and I know that vern does the same... so we are both going to get pups that have the best chance of success in our venue.. that best chance comes from a pedigree that has a long line of success on both sides in our respective venue... he is not going to buy a pup from my dixie bred to a show champion and im not going to buy a pup from a breeder that takes a show dog and breeds to a field champion.. doing that just does not make a whole litter of beautiful field champions... its not that easy....


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Contrasts between the "conformation" Golden and the "field" Golden. And I threw in a pic of a European conformation Golden too.

Here is Push, CanDC AFTCH Firemarks Push Come to Shove. Swampcollie posted back in June when he earned his Dual Championship.









2SweetGoldens posted this picture of Larsen, the stud she chose for Lexie.









And Marilyn posted this pic of Sh Ch Ritzilyn Brandon. He is Gunners daddy.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

monomer said:


> No expert here but I will try my best...
> 
> The physical appearance... fields have longer legs (proportionally) and thinner coats, relatively speaking has thinner bones and longer muzzles. Show dog have been evolving much heavier bones especially in the legs, huge paws and relatively larger and wider heads with a more pronounce stop and shorter muzzle... the look is sometimes referred to as "blocky"... also very thick and showy coats are becoming prized in the ring.
> 
> The non-appearance differences have to do with energy levels and retrieving drive and persistance... with the field dogs having more of everything... which is not always a good thing in a pet dog.


Here is a picture of Maggie who is Field line.....








I myself love both the field line and Show.....


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## Ant (Feb 25, 2007)

All I want in a Golden is good health. As far as I'm concerned they are all show as in they are all good looking and they know it.

Having said that I have a question: Is it possible that breeding for different purposes contributes to the health issues that plague our kids? Granted the puppy mills add to that disturbing increase of problems like cancer but in general wouldn't it be in the Golden's best interest to simply breed them for good health? I know this sounds very naive but what if?......


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

My daughter has a 2 yr old golden that I got for her as a pup. Sage is out of excellent field lines with an AFC sire and a QAA mom.. she was visiting here a few weeks ago and I asked her if she would like to come out to training with us and bring Sage... she brought Sage out and he had never ever had any formal training for retrieving... we were set up to do some pups and worked Sage into the routine.. we first introduced him to ducks which he loved.. we then threw him some marks out to 200 yds..he flat out smacked em.. in a week, we could have sage passing junior hunt tests... he has whatever it takes inside to do the work... we have others that come to train with us and struggle with it constantly.. 
vern talks as if it just doesnt take much at all to do the modern field trial/test... if that is true, then a bunch of us are sure training a lot for nothing since a dog should just be able to step off the truck and do it... don't take my word for it..go to one of these events and just watch... 
I have seen handlers (not me..im not at that level) actually have to use binoculars to handle to a blind so far away.. the qualities and abilities of the good ones is just simply amazing... 
it goes way beyond physical conditioning.. but addressing that..how many big "blocky" marathon runners do you see?.. I could get in the best condition possible and the NBA still would not be interested in me...


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

Ant said:


> All I want in a Golden is good health. As far as I'm concerned they are all show as in they are all good looking and they know it.
> 
> Having said that I have a question: Is it possible that breeding for different purposes contributes to the health issues that plague our kids? Granted the puppy mills add to that disturbing increase of problems like cancer but in general wouldn't it be in the Golden's best interest to simply breed them for good health? I know this sounds very naive but what if?......


that should be at the top of the list for anyone getting a pup for any purpose... that and then temprament.. then we can go for the other traits that we want..


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

But can a dog be good at everything and still be tied to an appearance standard?

In keeping the Golden Retrievers standard, thats exactly what it should be able to do, and prove by way of titles.
And why shouldn't we have a 'pet' line of Golden Retrievers.

I think we all do. The golden makes a beautiful pet, although requires quite a bit of exercise in one way or another, as well as training. There are a few reasons NOT too own a golden, and a person that isn't active is one. Dogs walk, fish swim, and birds fly as Cesar M says it, it is nature as it was intended to be, that exercise has to be in there. I think this is one of the reasons many have moved over too the golden, because they all do make such loving pets. I think alot of the health problems we see today, as well as excess coat and heavy groomings and such doesn't really fall under field verses show, it is a break out of the standard, period. Health falls on bad breeding practices, that can...and has happened to both lines. In which many will refer too as the split in the breeds. Personally though I believe the field is a healthier bred dog. One of the reasons is because all the work that they are expected to do, the time to get them there and there are less of them. They breed specifically for health among other things because they simply can't have allergy ridden dogs, unhealthy dogs out there in the working fields or excess coat and groomings. You simply cannot have those things. Joints are another thing they look at seriously, because those joints are taking on some heavy pounding every day. Looks isn't what a field breeder looks to first when breeding, although looks is there, but the looks of the dog isn't what makes the dog out there and the field breeder knows this, so you see this is where the show breeder, and field breeder need to get together. Health needs to be at the top of the list when breeding. The golden retriever is a beautiful dog. I've not seen an ugly golden to date. I think what we sow, we reap.....and time has proven this.
Vern, hunting hasn't changed. Hunting and using a dog as it always was is very much there today, the hunting dog is a highly skilled trained dog working at long distances retrieving and bringing to hand, and able to do this all day, every day. One thing to keep in mind is, a bag limit may be whatever amount in a state, but the people that are doing this also have partners along in many instances, those very dogs are also retrieving there birds. So although the bag limit may be whatever, that doesn't mean the dog is only retrieving just one bag limit. There's also more too consider, training, long distances, currants in water, OB at those distances, and signaling by trainers, etc. It is NOT an easy venue for every dog, not even a field dog. It is hard work!!! Physical condition is proven out there as well as so much more because the dog is put too the test every day. There are a few dogs out there that have went the distance, and one I believe was amatuer trained. All want him as stud, as well as in there pedigree. Not an easy task at all, one will only know this once getting in there with there dogs and seeing what is expected, what there up against. Once you go into field testing, your in with the big dogs then....one better have something special when they get there! I know I wouldn't lay down my money unless I did because so much work is involved, and money to get those top titles. You've got to have an exceptional dog.
There is a purse for a winner, and that is by way of stud service. And for the few that have gotten this, they are heavily sought after right now, but fitting those in the pedigree isn't always possible....we definately need more dogs that can fill the bill of exceptional dogs in the ring, and I believe they are looking for them because our golden breed isn't doing so hot in there, nor has it been for a few years now. And who's too say, some of us here may have that very exceptional dog. (smile) It's running around in your back yard right now as your playing, or it's there by our side out hiking. Or for those that hunt with your dog, it's sitting by your side and waiting for your signal for that retrieve, etc. you just never know. But for many here, they are just our companions....and we love them just for what they are, even if maybe something isn't so perfect....in our eyes, they are the winning dog and they are every bit perfect to us. The difference being, we are not taking them in the ring to prove to be the perfect example of what the Golden Retriever is, and should be. To us, they are already just that!


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## Princess Bella (Oct 17, 2006)

Bella's mom is "Field" and her father is "Show"... she's the best dog ever, I get the best of both worlds.


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

Goldndust said:


> Personally though I believe the field is a healthier bred dog. One of the reasons is because all the work that they are expected to do, the time to get them there and there are less of them. They breed specifically for health among other things because they simply can't have allergy ridden dogs, unhealthy dogs out there in the working fields or excess coat and groomings. You simply cannot have those things. Joints are another thing they look at seriously, because those joints are taking on some heavy pounding every day.


I agree with everyting you said *except* the above. So you are saying (in so many words) that show breeders do not look at health as a priority? Well, what if I said that "field" breeders are breeding for drive and instinct and not for anything else. How many times have I heard on this forum that drive is everthing? "If the drive is not there then it isn't a retriever". And yes, their are some show breeders that breed strictly for the win. But you are making a sweeping statement about ALL show breeders and show dogs. You simply can not do that. Once agian, I still think you have a problem with ONLY show breeders...no matter how many times you say you do not.

I love both show and field. ALthough I am basically a "show" breeder I am branching out to field. Greg said that no one wants to breed their show dog to a field dog and vicsa versa. Well, I am in the process of researching that possibility as I write this. Granted I will not get the heavy coated, big headed and big footed dog that *many* of you think is all a show breeder wants...but I think I will be very pleased in the long run. There is a great breeder who breeds field dogs and every 3rd generation breeds to a breed CH to maintain the "look". She has been VERY successful (she lives in Canada). It can be done.


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## Princess Bella (Oct 17, 2006)

I LOVE THE PICTURE OF MAGGIE, FIELD is sooo much better! and they have more energy!!


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## GoldenShamus (Feb 26, 2007)

Well, I'm not sure I know enough about the two different types to comment fully. However, I know that my golden is a quote on quote confirmation golden, his breeder does competitive obedience, agility, and confirmation with her dogs, but I do not believe she hunts with them.

My question to everyone is, Is it true that a true 'field' golden that has been bred from a long line of hunting dogs has a lot more energy and drive than a quote on quote confirmation golden???

The reason I ask this is because that is one reason I would shy away from a 'field' golden, because I know that I will not be hunting with my golden and cannot provide the exercise requirements for a true high energy dog. (I do feel it necessary to say that I have a dog walker for mid day and I walk my dog in the evenings as well, it's not as if I don't provide exercise, but I'm talking about a true high energy dog).


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## GoldenShamus (Feb 26, 2007)

njb said:


> What is really confusing is that it seems that 'show' type goldens are not breed to fulfill what they were breed to do in the first place--so--if they are not built for what they are breed to do--how in the Sam Hill are they considered top of the line?
> 
> You would think that dogs that fulfill their breeding/nature would be more valued.
> 
> I am guessing politics with what the judges like might be part of the answer.


Well, I don't know how the chips REALLY fall, but the confirmation judges aren't just supposed to be judging beauty, but whether the golden fits the standard for which they were bred for. How far we've come away from that I don't know, I really don't.

One complaint that I have is that I've seen many people with goldens with almost no coat or just lanky bodies, and everyone points and says, Oh, tha'ts a field golden. Well, it may just be a poorly bred golden, too. I say that because I see Swampcolllie's goldens and they are field, and they are gorgeous! It leaves me to wonder, and I think much of the public, even many golden owners, are very misinformed.


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

monomer said:


> Shouldn't we instead continue breeding for function and let the form follow?


Saw this program a long time ago....I do agree with the form following function. But, then again, I don't want to see divergence with in the breed. I already have issues with 'field' & 'show' golden 'lines'. It's one breed and eventually the field and show lines, if kept genetically separate, will evolve into what could be called two different breeds.

Hold on to your seats, this is gonna be a good discussion!


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

GoldenShamus; said:


> One complaint that I have is that I've seen many people with goldens with almost no coat or just lanky bodies, and everyone points and says, Oh, tha'ts a field golden. Well, it may just be a poorly bred golden, too.


My No coat , long lanky Maggie comes from a very good breeder that breeds for health and they have all there clearances..


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## GoldenShamus (Feb 26, 2007)

Maggies mom said:


> My No coat , long lanky Maggie comes from a very good breeder that breeds for health and they have all there clearances..


I'm not criticizing goldens that have that appearance, I'm simply criticizing people that try to say field goldens are unattractive. If I didn't have such a bad headache at the moment, I may have been more careful in my words.

I guess my point is that a field golden, I thought, is defined by the purpose it was bred for, not simply by it's looks. I think many goldens that weren't bred for field have less fur or longer legs, etc. I just think people use the word 'field' without knowing it's real meaning at times...I hope this clarifies my earlier statement as I in no way meant to make a judgement about looks, but rather, the way people use the definitions.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

This is my last post, and then I'm leaving it alone. I think my previous posts were nothing but respectful of other people's needs and desires for their dog. Like I said, I was a very active hunter when I was a bit younger. None of us were around at the beginning of the last century, so we have nothing but the history books to rely on. Hunting has changed drastically over the last hundred years. To argue it has not is just silly. It has gone from a commercial and survival endeavor, to a hobby. Those dogs I described earlier retrieved hundreds of birds *every night,* not just on Saturdays.

That is not to take anything away from anyone’s working dog. But a true working dog, does just that; it works. Eight hours a day, seven days (nights) a week. That is were structure comes in. 

Remember, I have hunting in my bones, and like I said earlier, there is nothing more beautiful then watching a dog work. When I see a good dog work, I feel such a sense of accomplishment; it is almost as if I retrieved that bird myself. What I don't think is fair, is to infer that a dog will trip over his own feet because they are big. That is were a further examination is in order. The feet of a properly structured dog, never even come close to touching one another. So tripping over your own feet is just a ridiculous argument, and one that cannot be supported by the facts.

That is it, I'm out of here.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

I am slow--forgive me--but I am still confused--other than coat and maybe feet and head size what is the difference between show and field line?


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## JimS (Jan 2, 2007)

njb said:


> I am slow--forgive me--but I am still confused--other than coat and maybe feet and head size what is the difference between show and field line?


Plain and simple there isn't any. Genetically they're both the same dog. They're both retrievers. There's no reason a show dog can't hunt, and a hunting dog can't exemplify the breed standard. 

Retrievers, be they Labrador, Golden, Flattie, CCR, Toller, Chessie, or even the fru fru Poodle were bred for versatility. Breeders who work towards one specific trait, without taking the whole package into consideration are doing a disservice to the breed.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

i am not sure exactly what the history of hunting has to do with the point here... guess the show dogs could have been great retrievers 100 years ago????... the trial dogs i see come in all shapes and sizes..
i have been steadfast in saying.. you cannot tell which dog is a great retriever by looking at it... its that **** simple.. 
so dont tell us that just because a dog has a certain body type that they will.. 
I have never ever one time said that a dog that looks like the standard cannot be a great retriever... certainly they can.. but just because the look like that arbitrary standard does not mean they can or will be any kind of retriever at all..
all you are judging is a look..does it look like someones idea of how a golden retriever should look...thats fine if that is what you are into..great... go for it...
i live in the other camp.. i want a dog that will perform.. and at a high level... 
and I will continue to maintain that is what these dogs were intended for..performance...


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

First chance I've had to post to this thread today...

There are a couple of points I'd like to make on both sides and then some...

About Show:
The way I see it is that the conformation standard is far too nebulous in its current format... only height, proportion and weight are specified... everything else is somewhat left opened to interpretation... in other words, the current judge's (or group of judges') whims and fancy... this, I believe is what opens the door to creating a different Golden from what once was. A simple example: Last year some one on this forum (KatieandDusty, I think) linked to a video of the Golden competition at the Westminster Dog Show... several things struck me odd about those Goldens... but one thing that I immediately noticed was all 40 something Goldens were pretty much the same shade of golden color. The standard says that all shades of golden is allowed with only the extreme dark and pale colors to be undesirable, (but no preference should be shown for one shade over another) and we all know the wide variation of golden color allowed by the AKC and yet all those Goldens were the same shade of gold. 'Curious', I thought... and decided that all the breeders must know which shade of Golden can win and which other shades will not and so that's what they brought to the show. In this way the judges control which shade of Golden the breed will be for years to come. Well, color is no big deal you might say but what about coat type or bone size or stop or angulation or physical head size, etc.? These are also in many ways left up to the judge's discretion to interpret the vague wording in the standard. If the standard was so precise as to specify the breed's appearance then any artist, who doesn't know what a Golden Retriever is supposed to look like, should be able to render an accurate likeness of the Golden Retriever from just a reading of the standard, right? If you read the standard you'll see that that artist's rendition could end up looking like a number of dogs that don't resemble either a field or a show Golden or any golden any of us has ever seen... it is that poorly written.

Being open to interpretation by the judge means the actual appearance of the breed is now rendered purely 'fashionable' and can change on the whims of a single judge or a small group of judges. This, I think, is the danger of conformation to a vague appearance standard as the sole determinant of the breed's future/fate.

About Field: I have a number of old books on Golden Retrievers and they are quite different from the breed books of today. These old breed books are steeped in history (some of it was current commentary at the time). In one of those books an old-timer discusses field Goldens of his youth (as a young man and an avid hunter) and tells stories about dogs retrieving 70 to 100 or more ducks in a single day... where just one dog could be retrieving for 3 or 4 hunters! He talks about icy conditions in the dead of a Montana winter and also about braving 8 foot high seas to complete a retrieve. I've read about other 'tales' of such retrievers from the first part of the last century (1920s, 1930s)... it sounds like there were a lot more water fowl back then and a hunter could shoot 60 or 70 birds in a single day of hunting... not to mention other upland game as well. I don't know how that compares with field trials today but I do think the pictures of those 'rangy' looking Goldens from olde appear different from the pictures of field champions I see in my newer Golden Retriever breed books. So I think Vern might have something there about modern field Goldens having also evolved into a some what different dog than the original Golden of yesteryear.



So now, one final thought from some one who neither shows nor trials Goldens nor any other breed for that matter and never has... me!

I don't believe its possible to 'stop time' (time=change)... how can we hope to possibly retain the 'original' Golden Retriever if the environment and culture he was developed for no longer exists. Technology has changed, people's needs have changed, the environment has changed... well, then so have our dogs whether anyone wants to admit it or not! Just thumb through the pages of an old breed manual and study the pictures, read about the kennels and dogs of an earlier time. I think if the breed has evolved into two distinct lines then that is what we need and want of this breed for today, why deny it? I don't care how many 'lines' of Goldens are evolved... choice is good! I just want the one that suits our life and lifestyle best.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I can tell you this much..over time the requirements in a field trial have increased many fold.. it is so much tougher today..part because of improvement in the dogs and partly because of improvement in training techniques..


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

greg bell said:


> I can tell you this much..over time the requirements in a field trial have increased many fold.. it is so much tougher today..part because of improvement in the dogs and partly because of improvement in training techniques..


I guess this would be a bad time to ask you to be more specific?


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

mostly distance..both marks and blinds..but the tightness of the marks..the difficulty of both... over points.. past points... handling past scented areas... multiple marks... often times quads.. marks tight to old falls.. poison birds.. it goes on and on....but it is much more difficult... you need a hard charging dog that loves to do its job and yet is very tractable..


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

greg bell said:


> ... poison birds...


Whoa, this cannot be what it sounds like! So what is it?


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

I just have to say I think everyone is being very informative. And I love that everyone is also being respectful. I'm learning alot! So thanks!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

JimS said:


> ...There's no reason a show dog can't hunt...


True but probably not as well. I know Greg also allows for this possibility... but even with proper drive and intensity the physics has got to get in the way at the highest levels of performance. Though some try to ignore it, form does follow function. Let's say you have a St. Bernard, a Golden Retriever (you pick the 'lines'), and a Chihuahua... all having equal drive and intensity for the retrieve... who do you think will be best? Now let's make it a little closer... a retriever with long legs, thin-dense bone structure with leaner leg muscle, thinner coat with less undercoat, lighter-weight, smaller/lighter head for the same neck muscles, and narrower chest OR a heavy coated (especially undercoat), large paws and big boned, large blocky head-type, wide chest, and heavier over-all... if all other traits were equal, which one do you think would be faster and more durable as the day wore on? There is something to be said for form following function.


JimS said:


> ...and a hunting dog can't exemplify the breed standard...


Not if it doesn't look like what the judge's interpretation of the standard is... and lately the champion show dogs I've seen don't seem be built quite proper to excel in the field... just from a common-sense physics standpoint (since I don't participate or even attend field events).


You guys have got me talking way outta my area of knowledge so now I'm just running on using basic logic, observations of mine, and some common knowledge I've obtain by reading...


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

moverking said:


> ...eventually the field and show lines, if kept genetically separate, will evolve into what could be called two different breeds...


And so what would be wrong with that? Might that not be a good thing? Having more choices that is...


Again... I'd love it if some brave (and wealthy) Golden Retriever breeder somewhere would step-up and invest the time and money to 'develop' the 'ideal' pet Golden Retriever... that would be the kind that never ends up in rescue (or worse) and lives practically forever without allergies (or worse).


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## JimS (Jan 2, 2007)

monomer said:


> Whoa, this cannot be what it sounds like! So what is it?


LOL! A poison bird is a mark that the dog has to ignore on it's run.



monomer said:


> but even with proper drive and intensity the physics has got to get in the way at the highest levels of performance. Though some try to ignore it, form does follow function.


Agreed. However, the breed standard recognizes that the form is that of a hunting dog. It's just that many of the current crop of breed judges have lost touch with the dog's roots. 

General Appearance -- a symmetrical, powerful, active dog, sound and well put together, not clumsy nor long in the leg, displaying a kindly expression and possessing a personality that is eager, alert and self-confident. Primarily a hunting dog, he should be shown in hard working condition. Over-all appearance, balance, gait and purpose to be given more emphasis than any of his component parts.

Greg is right. Dogs running in trials and tests are performing like never before. They're also doing it longer. Kali's father qualified and ran in the ESPN Great Outdoor Games at eleven years old. When I was a child, there were no eleven year old hunting dogs.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

one area that goldens have it over the labs is their nose..goldens have incredible noses..we see it day after day in training... they can wind a duck at up to 100 yards at times... 
this is sometimes a bad deal in the field trials... while on their way to a mark they may catch scent of another bird and "switch" direction to get the one that they smell... however, it is a great asset in a hunting dog.. 
I have never even seen a tracking test, but would think that goldens would excel in that venue..


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

DelmarvaGold said:


> I agree with everyting you said *except* the above. So you are saying (in so many words) that show breeders do not look at health as a priority? Well, what if I said that "field" breeders are breeding for drive and instinct and not for anything else. How many times have I heard on this forum that drive is everthing? "If the drive is not there then it isn't a retriever". And yes, their are some show breeders that breed strictly for the win. But you are making a sweeping statement about ALL show breeders and show dogs. You simply can not do that. Once agian, I still think you have a problem with ONLY show breeders...no matter how many times you say you do not.
> 
> I love both show and field. ALthough I am basically a "show" breeder I am branching out to field. Greg said that no one wants to breed their show dog to a field dog and vicsa versa. Well, I am in the process of researching that possibility as I write this. Granted I will not get the heavy coated, big headed and big footed dog that *many* of you think is all a show breeder wants...but I think I will be very pleased in the long run. There is a great breeder who breeds field dogs and every 3rd generation breeds to a breed CH to maintain the "look". She has been VERY successful (she lives in Canada). It can be done.


No DMG, I did not say that. You didn't read between the lines, what I said was there was a lot less fielders bred out there, so less problems with them health wise. The conformation has been the hardest hit by this because there are so many more poorly bred ones out there being sold by greedy people that care nothing about there health, but only about that almighty dollor they can bring in there pockets! 



> I still think you have a problem with ONLY show breeders...no matter how many times you say you do not.


Now what does that have to do with anything:doh: Secondly I could say the very same about you for the way your attacking me everytime since you own nothing but show goldens! 

I own a Conformation golden, Telly was conformation/Field and Kody is predominately field. I think you base me on Kody because he is field boy and I own him....and you better believe I love my field boy, but I also love my Bianka girl, and she is conformation lined.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

No Monomer, you have to look at other pictures. Here's Pluto
http://www.shilohpark.net/pluto_r.jpg

Don't look to rangy to me, this was one hot little number. You have to look at other pictures, and keep in mind back then brushes and grooming tools were not at the top of there list...lol Getting those birds was, and they were purely working dogs. Color wise, if you go back in time you will see the dark goldens. They were there, and they are on the Golden Retriever club of America site. They have a line up there of all the beautiful colors and inbetween. 

Here's Lady, if you look at this picture...the people look kinda rangy to me also...and that was dress cloths. My how fashion has changed. lol But Lady don't look rangy at all to me.
http://www.shilohpark.net/Lady%20Aberdeen%20R.jpg

I'm still looking for Stilrovin Nitro Express, can't find it yet on the web. I have the book the new complete Golden Retriever by Gertrude Fiscer, none of those dogs look rangy at all, so maybe looking at other books also will give you a better idea of them. This book has many golden pictures of years ago, of all types. Field, conformation, tracking. There all beautiful dogs.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

JimS... I'm in a classroom right now, so I'm not going to manipulate quotes and fonts and such...

Thanks for clearing up the 'poison bird' thing, whew!... when Greg didn't respond back I got a little worried there.


Just look at all the qualitative wording and adjectives in that one little excerpt you selected...

"a symmetrical"... no living thing is purely symmetrical agreed? well if one dog should have better symmetry of the eyes and another of the ear set... which one wins? Judge's desecration...

"powerful"... how does one quantify this adjective exactly? If it can't be quantified then how can it be measured objectively? So if it cannot measured objectively then the decision on which dog wins must be subjectively determined... again, Judge's descreation

"active"... see the above commentary

"sound and well put together"..... "not clumsy nor long in the leg".... "displaying a kindly expression"..... "possessing a personality that is eager".... "alert".... "self-confident".... and on and on through the whole standard things like 'long in the leg' is NOT spelled out as a dimension nor a proportion... and things like 'self-confident' or 'eager' is purely subjective and then the question of how much should each be worth in a comparison, is 'eager' more point-worthy that 'self-confident'? How 'eager' is eager enough for a Golden? You see the problem with the standard as written?
The bottom-line is the judge (or judges) can determine many aspects of what a proper Golden should physically look like because the way the standard is written and since there is nothing written about performance, function cannot even be used to 'correct' for any errors in judgment by the officials. There is so little by way of 'checks and balances' in the show ring.

Gaiting is the noteable exception to my statement on function... but really, shouldn't there be more in the standard about performance?


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## sharlin (Feb 26, 2007)

Ant said:


> All I want in a Golden is good health. As far as I'm concerned they are all show as in they are all good looking and they know it.
> 
> Having said that I have a question: Is it possible that breeding for different purposes contributes to the health issues that plague our kids? Granted the puppy mills add to that disturbing increase of problems like cancer but in general wouldn't it be in the Golden's best interest to simply breed them for good health? I know this sounds very naive but what if?......


Sounds perfect to me Ant. A loving heart, a healthy body & a long life - All Goldens come with the first, now we just need to concentrate on the last two.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Goldndust...
I've actually seen that last picture many times as it seems to be reprinted in so many of the recent modern breed books on Goldens. Let me qualify my meaning of 'rangy'... a definition from Webster's: longest limb and slender. Maggie (pic from Maggies mom) fits the bill... dye her hair red and she would fit right in with those old time photographs. The pictures you've selected do not show the dogs standing which tends to be a more revealing pose... I have just begun the really intense busy part of my work week but maybe in a couple of days (or sooner) I will page through my books and scan in a couple of pictures. But if you look closely at those pictures in your links and compare it to the top picture in mylissyk's post (posting directly above Maggie's pic) you can see differences in leg length, a thinner body and greater 'tuck-up'... to 'see' these last two items you have to use some 'imagination' because the dog isn't standing but compare the position to your Kody sitting and you will see what I'm talking about. In fact if you have a recent picture of Kody in the approximate same position and could post it, that would be interesting.

Again, my responses are somewhat stilted today because I'd doing this 'on-the-fly' from work... I think some of you can relate.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

My first Golden was from "field lines". She was smaller, slighter boned, smaller head and darker in color than my 2nd Golden boy who was from strict conformation lines and was himself a gorgeous show dog. Chelsea had the "smarts' though that my Dakota boy did not show. He was pretty but not the brightest bulb in the pack (sorry my precious boy). My Jasmine, who is now 11 months was purchased from a conformation show breeder but has lines that have been proven in tracking, field and obedience and even therapy work. This particular breeder breeds "all around" Goldens and thus Jazz is the smartest Golden I have ever owned! I do think they can have the beauty of the conformation dog and the intelligence of the field dog all rolled into one. Jazz is proof!

Jazzys Mom


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

This has been a very interesting thread to me. I am new to the Golden world, so these are just my thoughts. I will be careful not to offend or upset anybody because this is a heated topic. 

The Golden Retriever is still a pretty new breed. I was amazed that I looked up Brady's pedigree, I could follow it all the way back to the beginning. It is also one of the most popular breeds, so there will be more breeders out there who will be interpreting the standard in their own way. Maybe it is still evolving and will continue until it does become two separate breeds or a breed that looks a lot different from what we see today. The goldens I see today, look a lot different from what I saw as a child.

This is happening to a lot of breeds both cats and dogs. Has anyone seen today's siamese cat compared to one from the seventies. Their heads look completely different. Then unfortunately traits go in and out of style (color, etc.) 

The Great Pyrenees (because that is the breed I am more familiar with) is one of the oldest breeds. It has been around for over 2000 years. They have found fossils and the dogs from those days still look the same as they do now. Is it because the breed was done evolving or is it because the breed is not in the top 10 popular breeds? 

Brady is from champion confirmation show lines, I did see in his pedigree a couple dogs with titles on the other side, but not too many. I was looking for a good, family, house pet. One that would retrieve a ball with my kids (my Great Pyrenees won't do that), one that had longevity, health clearances and one that LOOKED like a Golden Retriever. I have seen some, I don't know where they come from but they look like Irish Setters or Yellow Labs. 

I am amazed over his Golden Retriever traits. He can find water anywhere, and needs to be in it. He has been the easiest dog I have had to train. In puppy kindergarten we have 4 goldens and 2 labs, and the teacher is saying this is the best class she has ever had. You can just see their little brains thinking and trying to figure out what you want them to do. He has been retrieving balls and toys since day one, and always needs something in his mouth. He loves all dogs, cats and people! I don't know if he would be good in the field, and I don't care. The above personality traits I mentioned above will make him an awesome family pet, and that was what I was looking for. His registration is Limited, so wouldn't that make him a "pet". 

The breed is still young, so who knows what will happen - and if it will be good or bad.


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

Goldndust said:


> They breed specifically for health among other things because they simply can't have allergy ridden dogs, unhealthy dogs out there in the working fields or excess coat and groomings. You simply cannot have those things. Joints are another thing they look at seriously, because those joints are taking on some heavy pounding every day. Looks isn't what a field breeder looks to first when breeding, although looks is there, but the looks of the dog isn't what makes the dog out there and the field breeder knows this, so you see this is where the show breeder, and field breeder need to get together. Health needs to be at the top of the list when breeding.


So...exactly WHAT are you saying here??? Spell it out for me because apparently I am too stupid to "get it". What I am taking out of your statement is that you are saying field breeders are better qualified to breed because they breed first and foremost for "health"...PERIOD. Show breeders are breeding strictly for "looks"...PERIOD. You know that is a bunch of "CRAP". Health problems run in both field and show. Do you really think that a *responsible* show breeder foresakes all things (health, structure, temperament, etc) for the hope of producing the next BIS? If your answer is yes, then don't you think that maybe...just maybe the same thing can possibly happen in the field lines as well? Breeding for the next FTCH? Again you are making a sweeping statement without any proof.

If you knew ANYTHING about conformation shows and breeders you would know that you have to have *structure* or you will not win. If the joints were bad don't you think the gait would be off? Yes, there are times that the win is political. But more often than not, under all that "excess" coat is a very sound healthy retriever. And NO, I am not saying that a dog dripping in coat is proper. And NO, I am not saying that all show dogs have correct structure. And NO, I am not saying that all show dogs can go out and hunt....just as all field bred dogs can not hunt either. Yes, I have seen some so called field dogs (great pedigrees) trying to run a simple JH test and could not do it.

I would love to know exactly what involvement you have within the dog world...besides dog related forums. How many hunts test have you competed in and or watched. How many field trials? Have you researched pedigrees to the point that you know WITHOUT a doubt that field bred dogs are healthier? Since you own a conformation dog...how many shows have you shown in or actually watched. How many of the big headed and big footed dogs have you actually had your "hands on" to actually feel what is under the coat? Have you talked to many show breeders and discussed pedigrees. Have you researched pedigrees to say WITHOUT a doubt that show dogs are not as healthy.

The only field bred dog that I can say was exceptional is AFC AFTCH Rosehill's Mr Speaker MH OS CCA FDHF I had the pleasure of meeting him at the 2005 GRC National. He has it all.

So regardless whether or not I own show dogs, I can certainly see the positive attributes of the field dog. BTW, I have just purchased a field bred puppy so your comment about me owning nothing but show dogs was pure speculation.

And one further comment Dianna....I am not ATTACKING you. I am simply disagreeing with you. The thing I hate the most is that some one comes onto a public forum and spews something as "fact" without so much as research to back it up. It is simply your opinion


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

After all this--I am still not sure there is a difference--other than maybe parents having a longer coat. Shows how smart I am.....lol


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

cubbysan said:


> ...The goldens I see today, look a lot different from what I saw as a child.
> 
> This is happening to a lot of breeds both cats and dogs. Has anyone seen today's siamese cat compared to one from the seventies. Their heads look completely different. Then unfortunately traits go in and out of style (color, etc.)...


I was a child all through the 50's and your statement was exactly what I've been thinking and saying for a very long time. Certain breeds of animals do not look the way they did in my youth... And having grown up in Hawaii where Siamese were the typical alley cat, I know what you're talking about there too.


cubbysan said:


> ...The Great Pyrenees (because that is the breed I am more familiar with) is one of the oldest breeds. It has been around for over 2000 years. They have found fossils and the dogs from those days still look the same as they do now. Is it because the breed was done evolving or is it because the breed is not in the top 10 popular breeds?...


It might possibly be because both the environment and the work has changed little in its native country over the centuries... and if form follows function then that could explain it. And you are right they are not really a 'popular' breed with the dog fancy.


cubbysan said:


> ...Brady is from champion confirmation show lines, I did see in his pedigree a couple dogs with titles on the other side, but not too many. I was looking for a good, family, house pet. One that would retrieve a ball with my kids (my Great Pyrenees won't do that), one that had longevity, health clearances and one that LOOKED like a Golden Retriever. I have seen some, I don't know where they come from but they look like Irish Setters or Yellow Labs.
> 
> I am amazed over his Golden Retriever traits. He can find water anywhere, and needs to be in it. He has been the easiest dog I have had to train. In puppy kindergarten we have 4 goldens and 2 labs, and the teacher is saying this is the best class she has ever had. You can just see their little brains thinking and trying to figure out what you want them to do. He has been retrieving balls and toys since day one, and always needs something in his mouth. He loves all dogs, cats and people! I don't know if he would be good in the field, and I don't care. The above personality traits I mentioned above will make him an awesome family pet, and that was what I was looking for. His registration is Limited, so wouldn't that make him a "pet"...


I know what you mean about the "Irish Setter" or "Yellow Lab" remark... the former are most probably field type and the latter most probably show type... but in reality I think most family Goldens are like your Brady... which is somewhere in-between. He probably couldn't win in a conformation show and neither in a field trial... probably because his genetics are not really specialize enough for either venue, but he sure makes a good pet huh? Our Sidney is also caught between both worlds... I like to say he's kinda like a really big field golden. He loves water, obsessed about retrieving, notices birds on the wing, has good eyesight and movement, sparse coat, small boned, however he is a rather slow runner, big head, physically large, and can sometimes be willful or playful depending upon your outlook on such things... I like to call it "spirited". Basically he's a really a great pet well suited for our lifestyle.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

DelmarvaGold said:


> I love both show and field. ALthough I am basically a "show" breeder I am branching out to field. Greg said that no one wants to breed their show dog to a field dog and vicsa versa.


DG, would you please point out exactly where I said exactly that?... think i said not very many... 
im curious.. truly am.. because it is interesting.. I am not a breeder.. how do you do this and come up with nice looking field dogs that will do the work..i would be afraid you would have some show type dogs..some field type dogs.. some that would be neither...and maybe one pup that had all the tools you were looking for.....
and who is your market?... it would seem to me that both show and field folks would steer clear.....


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

greg bell said:


> DG, would you please point out exactly where I said exactly that?... think i said not very many...
> im curious.. truly am.. because it is interesting.. I am not a breeder.. how do you do this and come up with nice looking field dogs that will do the work..i would be afraid you would have some show type dogs..some field type dogs.. some that would be neither...and maybe one pup that had all the tools you were looking for.....
> and who is your market?... it would seem to me that both show and field folks would steer clear.....


Ever hear of pet dogs? I breed for myself and no one else. If some one is interested in a field or show dog from me then that would be great. If not that is ok too. 98% of my puppies go to pet homes.

Now to answer your other question. I would breed on strictly phenotype. Find the "look" of a field pedigree that most closely resembles the line I am trying to merge with it. I currently own a "show" bitch that looks more like she came from field lines. Her drive is great, average amount of coat, and not overdone by any stretch. Yes I am showing her in the ring. Yes, it is hard but I don't give up easily  She is solid and is the best example of the old fashion golden retriever I own...nope she is not from my breeding which I am sorry to say. I have evolved in what I think a golden should be. Now I just need to concentrate on making my vision a reality.

Good question!


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

DelmarvaGold said:


> Good question!


I just want to say that you guys have done a great job of keeping this civilized in here..... I love to read the differing opinions, but so often it ends up being a mean spirited conversation....


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## JimS (Jan 2, 2007)

At some point in the near future, the show and field lines are going to have to come back together. The unfortunate truth of it is that the gene pool on the performance side is extraordinarily narrow at the moment. Virtually all of the top producing dogs are closely related to one another.

There's been a fantastic thread on Goldens at stud on RTF since early this year. It's probably just paranoia, but I've come away from it wondering about the long term viability of the Golden as a field dog.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

For those of use trying to sort out all the differences --I think a working definition that we all agree on would help. I know there are coat and head size differences as well as drive--but I don't believe that no show golden has that retriever drive.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

DelmarvaGold said:


> Ever hear of pet dogs? I breed for myself and no one else. If some one is interested in a field or show dog from me then that would be great. If not that is ok too. 98% of my puppies go to pet homes.
> 
> Now to answer your other question. I would breed on strictly phenotype. Find the "look" of a field pedigree that most closely resembles the line I am trying to merge with it. I currently own a "show" bitch that looks more like she came from field lines. Her drive is great, average amount of coat, and not overdone by any stretch. Yes I am showing her in the ring. Yes, it is hard but I don't give up easily  She is solid and is the best example of the old fashion golden retriever I own...nope she is not from my breeding which I am sorry to say. I have evolved in what I think a golden should be. Now I just need to concentrate on making my vision a reality.
> 
> Good question!


Sue ... Are you talking about Rascal?


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

Maggies mom said:


> Sue ... Are you talking about Rascal?


Yep, I am. I love that little red bitch


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

JimS said:


> At some point in the near future, the show and field lines are going to have to come back together. The unfortunate truth of it is that the gene pool on the performance side is extraordinarily narrow at the moment. Virtually all of the top producing dogs are closely related to one another.
> 
> There's been a fantastic thread on Goldens at stud on RTF since early this year. It's probably just paranoia, but I've come away from it wondering about the long term viability of the Golden as a field dog.



Can you give an over view of what the thread was about? I am a member of RTF but seldom visit.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

DelmarvaGold said:


> Yep, I am. I love that little red bitch


I always told Vern ... she was a favorite... of mine....I love those RED HEADS..


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

DMG, I was not speaking of the Show golden in that statement, I was strickly speaking of the field golden in that statement! And yes, I know plenty about this dog. I know about this because this is the area I’ve taken Kode because of his background and pedigree. You keep jumping on me, for speaking of the field dog and trying to twist it to meaning something entirely different, or even worse towards the show golden. DMG, I do not show….I train for field work. Kody is not a show dog, so that is not the area I have chosen to move into. I very much do believe the field and the show golden could learn much from one another by producing a well rounded golden, it may benefit the whole breed. DMG, that was my meaning behind that, you took it wrong! I can tell you this DMG, I did own a field/conformation and he was a beautiful well rounded dog. Some field breeders have done in the breed, I think you see it in the field tests. I’m not only talking goldens here, I am also talking labs. Some have produced nothing but speed demons, they have bred for speed and to the average dog owner….there to much! As some show breeders have bred for things that shouldn’t be there, it has happened to both the the dogs and if you will note, both have been at the top of the AKC’s list for a long time. This goes back to what I said before, the conformation golden has been heavily bred so more health problems. I never said it was all do too responsible breeders! 

Monomer was speaking of some of the older dogs DMG, so I went at those. We were not speaking of todays field goldens, or at least I didn’t read his post as such. I did in no way speculate anything, did you not just say today you purchased a field puppy! That hardly says you owned one up till now. 
I think your looking for things purposely to grab onto, that is obvious. Try to understand that just because we own field goldens, and for some time now we do not dislike the show golden. There really are people out there that can love them both, but at the same time want best for both dogs. And if that would mean speaking up and saying something against one or the other, it is not a downgrading of either, or a dislike. I think maybe once you get past that, then maybe all this will end. This is a board, it is discussion, and yes....not everyone agree's with everything that is said. But to just pick and pick at the same person says alot, and tells alot. I'm sorry you feel as you do, but at the same time you have to get over it, because from now on through I am done with it and refuse to answer. I'm sorry for that, but enough is enough. I feel this is a very informative thread, but to come in every single time and have it be over the same thing over and over, which is you going after me because you think I am more field then show, and me having to go back and constantly clarify is taking me from the thread that I find very interesting. I can't read all this thread and constantly be dealing with your attacks. It's taking me from all the posts and I can't even read half of them because i'm dealing with trying to make you see I do not dislike show dogs. Believe me, I think you know me well enough by now to know I'd tell ya if I did.

Momomer, I don’t think I have a shot of Kode standing sideways as such. I have plenty of shot of him, but not in that position, I will look though to make sure. I will say this though, looking at a golden does not prove anything, the pedigree does. I think Greg already mentioned that in a post back further. You can’t tell by looking at a golden. If you were to look at some of Tellys pics, you would think he was a field bred golden, but he wasn’t. He was both lines. He was a mixture of both dogs, not as high energy as Kody, since the comformation gave him a bit more calmness but yet still a high energy golden. A beautiful dog. A bit more coat then a fielder also, I would have loved to have seen that dog as he got older and filled out. He was already gorgeous before I lost him.

Maybe she has something of sitting as kode is, I checked and I have nothing in that position to see all the legs, the sit down shows the legs, and you can tell by looking at him he’s in good condition so definitely would have the tummy tuck. Kodes not what I would call a leggy field golden retriever. Tummy tuck should be there for all if weight is in. I don’t think all field bred goldens are leggy, many of the old pictures I’ve seen they are not although I have seen where many say they are leggy, I don’t think that holds for all, although I think there quite leggy when younger, but both conformation and field can go through this. Telly was field/conformation and to look at him, you would think he was field, he wasn’t all field. He had both lines in him. You simply can’t just look at a dogs picture and look at legs and being slender, if they are in a good weight there all slender. This goes for conformation as well. They all should be in a good weight. 

Oh, maybe Greg has a side shot...or someone else on the board to show you leg length....but in all honesty, the pedigree's prove the dog as Greg I believe has mentioned prior, so not sure what your trying to prove by legs or tummy tuck.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Shows are such a joke though- you are kidding yourself if you think the top show goldens are the best put together ones with the most potential to do what goldens were intended to do.

That said... I don't care how many lines there are- people enjoy different things. If they have fun, treat their dogs right, and responsible with them, what's it to me?


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Here is my other Field.....Houdini.... From the side....


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I have no problem with dog shows.. if folks are into that..fine.. the problem i have is the insinuation that a top show dog must also be a good retriever.. and being from missouri, u gotta show me.. i just refuse to believe that one can watch a dog walk around a ring and tell anything about its ability to perform in the field.. 
Im just afraid that you could walk in there with a bunch of "ugly" goldens and clean their plows... 
if it were not true, then dgold would not have to get a field golden to introduce into her breeding program... 
we have probably beat this topic to death..dunno if anyone convinced anyone of anything... vern and a few others are in one camp...me and a few are in the other camp and most the rest are in the middle somewhere...
if one competes in field events, it has become so tough, you cannot afford to drop back one inch in dog ability... you need every bit of the horsepower (dogpower?) you can get.. and most all of us feel it takes both sides of the pedigree to furnish that... it would be very hard to convince me to take on an experiment..it just takes way too much time and money to get a dog to that level.... 
I do not view my current dog as the most talented dog I have ever had..however, she is probably the most cooperative dog i have had and she always gives it her all..... 
one problem with goldens in field events is that so many of the owners are like me.. we dont wash dogs out.. we take what we are dealt and do the best we can..
most of the top trialers go through about 6 dogs and wash out 5 before they get the one they want to compete at that top level...(incidently, that is a good place to pick up a well trained hunting dog at a good price) that takes deep pockets and a different personality than mine.... i could never ever send dixie down the road to someone else.... she is not only my hunting and trial/test dog, but she is my buddy.... she is just like the dogs the rest of you have.... we are together constantly...
most trial dogs never ever see a hunting blind... they lead a pro type life.. the ones up here spend their winters in texas training.. they spend their life in a kennel and on a truck..training every day..but the good ones love it... 
whereas dixie spends her nights in the house and rides in the truck with me everywhere... it is a harder way to do it..she has to fill a lot of roles..but she is happy and i love her a lot...


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

MM, im tellin ya.. a look does not a field dog make... come over and train with us a couple days.. then we will see... 
when i say that, i am not only referring to the show dogs..


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

greg bell said:


> dunno if anyone convinced anyone of anything...


I don't know either...probably not. But it makes for great reading.....and probably the most civilized I've ever seen this topic go.... I appreciate that, since there's more to read when it doesn't turn into an mean spirited argument...

I've spent 30 years reading golden books and magazines, dreaming of the day I'd finally get one of my own. And I have always been in love with the look of a golden.....never caring if it were a show golden or a field golden. To me, they're all beautiful. I'd take an ugly golden over a perfect poodle anyday....


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

GoldenShamus said:


> My question to everyone is, Is it true that a true 'field' golden that has been bred from a long line of hunting dogs has a lot more energy and drive than a quote on quote confirmation golden???
> 
> The reason I ask this is because that is one reason I would shy away from a 'field' golden, because I know that I will not be hunting with my golden and cannot provide the exercise requirements for a true high energy dog. (I do feel it necessary to say that I have a dog walker for mid day and I walk my dog in the evenings as well, it's not as if I don't provide exercise, but I'm talking about a true high energy dog).


Thats definately something to consider Christi, but if the dog is well bred and trained you will pretty much see the same as you see in your Shamus out of them. They know when too kick in the afterburners, and it's when you want them too. They can go from calm as a pussycat, and moved into rocket mode within seconds of a game of fetch the frisbee,or the bumper. Inside, there calm as can be. I think many do not really know this dog, and they hear things, but sometimes I think one has to look at the circumstances of this dog, is it trained, is it getting exercised. This is a requirement of both the field, and the conformation.

Yes, they have a lot more energy, and drive when compared to the conformation. But I mentioned above how too harness all that. They will be just as happy fetching a ball, or a frisbee...hunting isn't a requirement just because of the line, there are other things they would excel in as well. One of Swampcollies that I know of is in Therapy work. I have one of his dogs, Kody. They really can do it all!


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

greg bell said:


> MM, im tellin ya.. a look does not a field dog make... come over and train with us a couple days.. then we will see...
> when i say that, i am not only referring to the show dogs..


Im guessing you were trying to say that looks dont make a field golden????? I never said it did... Monomer asked for a side view of one not Long and Lanky like Maggie.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

well, i had a close encounter with a show guy that made light of how dixie looks.. took it very personal..the good part was that he had a 5 year old show male and dixie was about 10 months old at the time...both running in a sanctioned trial in the same stake... dixie cleaned his plow.. but his dog was gorgous... but couldnt have got me to trade..


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

you never know..you may have the next golden field champ in your back yard.. your not that far away and we are out training virtually every day.. u might just get hooked.... hang on to your bank account..


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Nah......Its not my thing...Im sure the dogs would love it tho...I have been told by many who do what you do... Houdini would be great at it....but I would be more into something like Flyball......


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

I also have a true field Golden, Maggie. She comes from solid field lines, and is not just a poorly bred Golden. (And I must admit...I know what "look" you were referring to).

For those who would want "just a pet", she would be too much to handle....in most cases. We have to keep her active, as my DH has virtually stopped duck hunting in recent years. So.....we have her retrieve. On land, in the water, probably 75 retrieves a day (give or take 5). It keeps her busy, healthy, fit and happy. And most of all........calm at the end of the day! Knowing Maggie, I don't think a "field" type Golden would make the best family pet, unless the family is very very active.

Yes, she's smart...loving...and has a wonderful "Golden" personality and temperament, but her activity level is very high, which would possibly cause her to end up in a shelter or rescue if she was with the wrong family. That's the "downside" to owning a field type Golden Retriever. You can't train the energy out of them (sorry Di...without the exercise I think they're way more active than non-field Goldens), and without a LONG, hard workout every day, everybody is miserable and frustrated.

Now....I don't and have never bred show Goldens, but I do go to PLENTY of shows (because of our Newfs). I always watch the Goldens in the ring, and do have a chance to put my hands on them when they're outside of the ring.

I cannot imagine the majority of them fulfilling the breed standard when it comes to retrieving. By that I mean the "hard working condition" part of the standard.


> Primarily a hunting dog, he should be shown in hard working condition.


 Yes, they're conditioned and fit, but certainly not fit in the way that I feel the standard intends. And, what about the "primarily a hunting dog" statement? Are the dogs in the ring primarily hunting dogs? Of course not.

I don't think you can be subjective about that statement within the breed standard....nor should the judges be. I believe it was meant to be taken literally. So.........just to play devil's advocate.....does that mean that most of the conformation show Goldens *don't* fit the standard? Is it possible that many of the field Goldens do?

That would be my impression given a literal translation of the standard. So.....why aren't they (field type Goldens) being entered? That's what I just don't understand. Field Golden owners seem to have a mindset that they "couldn't" win. Plus they're a stubborn bunch. They really do not like the idea of conformation shows. 

However, IMO, to have an all-around "top quality" Golden Retriever, they MUST be shown and worked. That's the only way to PROVE that they meet the standard. Form does follow function.....but it goes both ways. Both criteria must be met to have a Golden Retriever that truly does meet the breed standard.

I feel that if enough fieldies entered shows, and fit the standard in all ways, eventually they would begin to win. Perhaps even sooner than later. Or...maybe not. Maybe it IS all politics??? I do know the Golden show world is a MUCH harder nut to crack than the Newf show world is. I would hope, however, that the judges would be fair and honest and judge accordingly.

To me, even though I haven't actually laid my hands on him (yet I have seen a zillion pics LOL - and I know his lines), Dianna's Kody would be a great example of a Golden who exemplifies the breed standard. He's not "too" leggy or lanky at all. He's got a great head, wonderful (looking) structure, the correct temperament, and IS primarily a hunting dog in hard working condition. I'd bet that if you went down the standard point by point, Kody would meet each one with ease. If he can't gait properly, I think I'd be shocked beyond measure. LOL

But could he win in the ring? If not, why not? Can anybody explain that to me?


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

it just goes against everything i believe.. that some judge would say some retriever is better than mine because he looks like it... i am in a venue where we can test that... we can see who is the best... the best RETRIEVER... if that is what we want.... im not sure everyone wants that... thats all im saying.. u cannot determine the best retriever by lining them up and looking at them..


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Ardeagold...
I agree with most of what you have written, especially the part about the need for exercise... and its connection to a calm dog.

I don't quite follow the part where you say...
_"Yes, they're conditioned and fit, but certainly not fit in the way that I feel the standard intends. And, what about the "primarily a hunting dog" statement? Are the dogs in the ring primarily hunting dogs? Of course not._

_I don't think you can be subjective about that statement within the breed standard....nor should the judges be. I believe it was meant to be taken literally. So.........just to play devil's advocate.....does that mean that most of the conformation show Goldens *don't* fit the standard? Is it possible that many of the field Goldens do?"_

If you read the words exactly as written it doesn't quite say what you are inferring... though that surely can be one interpretation of it. But rather I think the word "dog" is meant to be taken in the larger sense to signify the breed as a whole and not any specific individual dog in the ring. In other words, its saying... the breed is one that has primarily been used for hunting purposes and therefore should be physically 'fit' for that task. I believe that's all that's meant.

To get closer to the subject at hand I would ask the simple question... are field champions and conformation champions interchangeable? do they even look alike? do they act alike? and if not, in what ways are they different? I think most have agreed they do look different and they also have other differentiating traits beyond just the appearance differences. Granted just being from a field line doesn't guarantee a success in field events nor does being from a show line guarantee a win in the ring. Can a show golden successfully compete in field? Yes, just as a field golden could win in a show ring... but neither of these scenarios are extremely likely anymore. Why? That's the real question. My breed books tell me this was not an issue 40-50 years ago... not one to ever warrant a discussion in any of them. So what has happened to cause an emergence of two separate lines? Its not a question of which one is the better, or healthier, or 'proper'... its only about 'fit', such as in which type better 'fits' one's lifestyle. The funny thing is if you ignore the lines that are 'bred for' and 'compete in' a particular venue, I believe most will find the majority of Goldens are 'mixes' found somewhere between the two extremes.




A sidenote: "Smack-down" is a wrestling term and was selected for use in this thread's title to denote a 'hot topic' and to add some humor but it in no way should be taken to mean its okay to call out individuals by name for character assassination.

Example is: Monomer is a fat jerk for starting this stupid useless thread. *verses* I don't agree with Monomer's choice of topic because of (XXXinsert reasons why thread is stupid hereXXX). The first case is blatant 'character assassination' and will surely draw some return fire... the second statement is discussion and will usually get a reasonable explanation in return... unless the responder is extremely sensitive to any perceived criticism. And remember apologies are always free... it costs absolutely nothing to give one... (well maybe a little bit of one's pride but then we all have far too much of that to begin with anyway.)


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

Well---at least this thread explains why I have to hide anything that can be tossed--cats included. 

I kinda felt bad today--pouring rain and hail--the girl brings me a little piece of tissue to throw for her...what do you say to that? 

I am serious when I say she will forgo eating to chase anything I throw--I have to hide the balls (and the cats) to get her to even eat...she would drive your ordinary pet owner over the top---

Not saying she is not a great girl, she is such a great girl---she just wants to go get something BAD --ALL the time.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

Tinkerbell comes from show lines nothing great though. But she does show the some of the retreiver traits. Which I find fascinating to watch. She is active but last fall when the ducks and geese were flying south she heard a goose honk. From thattime on whenever she smelled them you could tell she'd go perfectly still and start staring towards the tree line and there they'd come. We times her once she st for just over an hour just watching for them. Since she was only 4 months old we were impressed. Animal toys she will only grab if she can carry it by the body. She will not grab it by the head and she has a very gentle mouth on it. The dog we were pet sitting over the weekend, he didn't care how he grabbed it so long as he could and actually put a hole in one.

I'm going to have to go see a field trial. but I know I don't want a field golden as fascinating as they are. I have no interest in hunting of any sort and don't need the extra energy they have.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

njb said:


> ...I kinda felt bad today--pouring rain and hail--the girl brings me a little piece of tissue to throw for her...what do you say to that?...


Awwwww...

Well, what else can you say? Poor dog...

I have actually put on rain gear or whatever was necessary to take Sidney out in pouring rain, or sleet, or icy conditions, whatever... otherwise I know there will be hell to pay in the evening. A high-energy Golden is a calm dog in the house... only if you give him enough exercise everyday... that's the key with him.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

the best looking dog is the one with a ribbon at the end of the trial... that's my definition and I'm sticking to it.. 
the labrador people have some kind of deal where the lab club of america will not recognize a show title until the dog has at least earned a WC or WCX... not sure if i have that exact..but its somthing like that..
we have had a number of show lab folks come out to train with us that were trying to get exactly that.. and labs are no different... the show ones look very different and just dont have the "stuff" that the field dogs do.. the show labs are very very blocky type dogs and just slow by our standards... they have a halfhearted interest in doing a retrieve and little interest in birds.... 
they work really hard to get their dogs to do what a 3 month old field bred dog will do right out of the crate... 
I have personally not seen an exception to this.. and I have seen quite a few...


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I was wondering - is it really possible to show a dog in confirmation and field in the same time frame?

I took some handling classes a few years back, and they had told us not to teach our dogs to sit while healing because you did not want them sitting in the ring. Now to take that same dog through obedience trials, you have to teach them the sits and the heels. So I would think that show dogs and field dogs are trained differently as puppies on how to act and stand, etc. I assume you would spend a year or two showing one way, getting your Championship, then retraining the dog to get their other titles. So can it be done?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

That's very sad, I really believe that any breed should be able to perform the work they were bred for, especially if they are trying to earn titles. Having said that, my shelter adopted Golden does not retrieve.



greg bell said:


> the best looking dog is the one with a ribbon at the end of the trial... that's my definition and I'm sticking to it..
> the labrador people have some kind of deal where the lab club of america will not recognize a show title until the dog has at least earned a WC or WCX... not sure if i have that exact..but its somthing like that..
> we have had a number of show lab folks come out to train with us that were trying to get exactly that.. and labs are no different... the show ones look very different and just dont have the "stuff" that the field dogs do.. the show labs are very very blocky type dogs and just slow by our standards... they have a halfhearted interest in doing a retrieve and little interest in birds....
> they work really hard to get their dogs to do what a 3 month old field bred dog will do right out of the crate...
> I have personally not seen an exception to this.. and I have seen quite a few...


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

monomer said:


> Awwwww...
> 
> Well, what else can you say? Poor dog...
> 
> I have actually put on rain gear or whatever was necessary to take Sidney out in pouring rain, or sleet, or icy conditions, whatever... otherwise I know there will be hell to pay in the evening. A high-energy Golden is a calm dog in the house... only if you give him enough exercise everyday... that's the key with him.


I've done the same thing with Wiggles. I have outdoor gear for any imaginable condition. In January, the temperatures were -20 to -30°C and I was waddling around the neighbourhood in snowboarding pants and a down jacket to make sure Wiggles got his proper walk.


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

cubbysan said:


> I was wondering - is it really possible to show a dog in confirmation and field in the same time frame?
> 
> I took some handling classes a few years back, and they had told us not to teach our dogs to sit while healing because you did not want them sitting in the ring. Now to take that same dog through obedience trials, you have to teach them the sits and the heels. So I would think that show dogs and field dogs are trained differently as puppies on how to act and stand, etc. I assume you would spend a year or two showing one way, getting your Championship, then retraining the dog to get their other titles. So can it be done?


Wiggles is a conformation dog and he is currently on his 2nd set of obedience classes where a heel-sit is being taught. My sneaky boy is smart though. He watches the position of my hands with the leash to determine if he needs to sit. If I don't hold it a certain way, I have to correct him to make him sit. At times when it's muddy outside and I don't want him sitting in mud, I deliberately hold the leash in a way so he doesn't sit when I stop. Wiggles bases his actions on my body language then.


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## PeggyK (Apr 16, 2005)

tintallie said:


> Wiggles is a conformation dog and he is currently on his 2nd set of obedience classes where a heel-sit is being taught. My sneaky boy is smart though. He watches the position of my hands with the leash to determine if he needs to sit. If I don't hold it a certain way, I have to correct him to make him sit. At times when it's muddy outside and I don't want him sitting in mud, I deliberately hold the leash in a way so he doesn't sit when I stop. Wiggles bases his actions on my body language then.


Sounds like Wiggles is one smart doggie!!!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

tintallie said:


> Wiggles is a conformation dog and he is currently on his 2nd set of obedience classes where a heel-sit is being taught. My sneaky boy is smart though. He watches the position of my hands with the leash to determine if he needs to sit. If I don't hold it a certain way, I have to correct him to make him sit. At times when it's muddy outside and I don't want him sitting in mud, I deliberately hold the leash in a way so he doesn't sit when I stop. Wiggles bases his actions on my body language then.


Dogs are sooo much more visually attuned than us humans. We are verbal creatures foremost because of our language capabilities then visual because of our dexterity. Dogs are smell oriented first (gotta seek out and find the game) followed by visual (now gotta catch the game to get dinner)... so we primarily use voice commands for our communications but our dogs are always searching for visual and odor clues as to our moods and what we are thinking and what we want from them. I think its important to always pair a visual signal (usually a hand signal) with any verbal command because visual cues work at a distance, also in noisy environments like in traffic, and will still allow communication with your dog when he gets old and his hearing starts to go. So keep up the visuals, it really helps little Wiggles.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

cubbysan said:


> I was wondering - is it really possible to show a dog in confirmation and field in the same time frame?
> 
> I took some handling classes a few years back, and they had told us not to teach our dogs to sit while healing because you did not want them sitting in the ring. Now to take that same dog through obedience trials, you have to teach them the sits and the heels. So I would think that show dogs and field dogs are trained differently as puppies on how to act and stand, etc. I assume you would spend a year or two showing one way, getting your Championship, then retraining the dog to get their other titles. So can it be done?



I think the whole, "don't teach a show dog to sit" thing just doesn't give dogs enough credit. If they're smart enough to learn to sit when you ask, they're smart enough to learn to stand and stack when you ask.

I'm presently training/showing in obedience, agility, hunt tests and dock jumping with my Golden. He's a heavy field-bred dog, so conformation was out of the question for us. He's just not what they look for in the ring and besides that, he's so small, he's under standard. I also work a friend's Whippet that's being trained in obedience and agility while being shown in conformation and it's fine. They learn the difference.

-Stephanie


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

<<the labrador people have some kind of deal where the lab club of america will not recognize a show title until the dog has at least earned a WC or WCX... not sure if i have that exact..but its somthing like that..>>

I really like that idea! 

-Stephanie


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## GoldenShamus (Feb 26, 2007)

Dianna,

I appreciate you answering my question about the activity level of a golden bred from field lines. It raises another question in my mind (Keep in mind this comes from my being a golden rescue volunteer), so here goes: If people are turning in your average golden to rescue groups because they don't want to provide a normal amount of exercise, or maybe can't for some reason, whatever, is it likely that a field golden's exercise needs would be even harder to meet and therefore they might have an even greater likelihood of ending up in rescue?

I'm just throwing out ideas here, not trying to pick a fight with anyone, but just honestly curious. I know myself that getting in 2-3 miles a day of walking, while working full-time, is enough of a challenge, albeit one I enjoy, but still...I dont have experience with a high energy golden and just wondering what their exercise requirements are on a normal day.

I do appreciate any input.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I definitely think that the higher energy the dog, the greater the chance it will turn up in rescue when placed in the "average" pet home.

My Quiz, field bred, would have ended up in a shelter by 6 months had he landed in an average pet home - no doubt about it. Good thing he got a trainer for a mom! 

As a pet trainer, I deal with the average and above average pet owners all the time. The "average pet owners" want problem behaviors to go away NOW w/o having to invest much time/effort into the training. I think I see it being worse here in Los Angeles since it's such a instant gratification society. A huge percentage of Los Angelinos don't mow their own lawns, clean their own houses, walk their own dogs or even raise their own kids! Heck, they don't even have to exercise their own bodies - they can just go to the plastic surgeon for some lipo! The idea that they might actually have to TRAIN their own dogs is a tough one for many to swallow! The "above average" pet owners realize there's work involved, but even they seem to be surprised at how much work training can be and the fact that it's a lifelong project and not just something that you do when the dog is a puppy.

Anyone who posts often on this list is not, IMO, an "average pet owner". Once you're addicted to any breed forum, I think that moves you into the rank of dog enthusiast. Once you're hooked on nine different dog sports like me, well, then you're just plain crazy!

-Stephanie


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

And in our rescue its the other way around.... 80% of the people are big time runners, walkers,hikers, hunters, sports...etc and want a high energy dog......


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## GoldenShamus (Feb 26, 2007)

I think the majority of the people that apply to Sunshine Rescue, the group I volunteer with, are active people. But, I still don't feel that my question has been truly answered. What is the difference between the energy level of a golden that has been bred to be out in the field and one that has not? Is it the difference b/w walking/running 3 miles a day and 6? I know it isn't that clear cut, but some information would be helpful.

I think it's unfair to goldens to assume that many dog owners are experienced and active enough to handle a true high energy dog. It's one thing for those of us on this board who are obviously totally in love with our dogs and willing to do whatever it takes and the general public. I truly do think that some dogs end up in rescue because people cannot meet their exercise requirements...


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I can only say for my dogs..... Maggie walking 3 miles a day is nothing to her... as soon as we come home she is ready to go out back and chase tennis balls, frisbee's whatever you throw.....that goes on for about 30-45 minutes.... then she goes and plays with the other dogs...... Abbie wasnt bred for field, but can keep up with Maggie. shes slower at running but she never stops....As a matter of fact usually when the others come in for a rest Abbie is the one pestering them to keep playing....We go back out after dinner and either walk or play ball... Once the weather stays warm , they will be swimming everyday....


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## HailieAndMe (Feb 28, 2007)

There must be such a thing as an "in-between" Golden, right? One that has both the traits of a "field" Golden and a "show Golden". I am no expert, but I think Hailie is in between, although it does seem like she leans towards the field type. I was not as knowledgeable and researched about the breed as I am now, so when I bought Hailie, I bought her from a so-called backyard breeder. So, I don't know about her heritage too well. (Although I did see her mom). To be honest, I wanted to have more of the "show" type of Golden, but at the time I got Hailie, I didn't even know that there were these differences. Either way, I love Hailie and she's smart and sassy and cute, and keeps me on my toes


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I think the whole, "don't teach a show dog to sit" thing just doesn't give dogs enough credit. If they're smart enough to learn to sit when you ask, they're smart enough to learn to stand and stack when you ask.
> 
> Yep, thats the way I feel too! I showed my Flirt in conformation but wanted her to be a "good girl" too so put her in puppy obedience classes. Initially, when everyone had their puppies sitting when halting heeling, I taught Flirty to stand. Later, when she was a little more mature, she would know what we were going to do by the collar I would put on her. She was an excellent obedience dog and even dabbled in freestyle obedience and yet when she was in the conformation ring, she was all conformation dog. Never even tried to sit! Yep, they are smart enough to know the difference!
> 
> Jazzys Mom


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> What is the difference between the energy level of a golden that has been bred to be out in the field and one that has not?


The difference, in our house, is that we can walk our "show lines" Golden (we have one) twice a day, let her play outside for an hour or two with her doggie friends (they play hard with one another), and then she's fine with cuddling up in the evening and getting brushed. Oh...and she needs/wants rest inbetween the activities above. She'll come in and nap for a while.

The field Golden can go and go and go and go......and go more. We walk her twice a day, play frisbee with her for about 30 minutes, toss bumpers in the pond for another hour, let her play outside with her buddies for another few hours during the day, and she would/could STILL keep going if we'd let her.

Granted all this activity is broken up in to "hour" segments....except the walks, which are about 20-30 minutes. In between we make her come inside. But the whole time, until night time, she keeps herself busy playing with her toys, or running over to the window to see what's going on "out there".

She's not hyper at all. No nervousness, no anxiety....she's just active. If she didn't have an outlet for all of that energy, which I don't think the majority of "pet" Goldens do, since their family is at work/school/etc during the day, I think she'd probably resort to some sort of stressed behavior, and this is why I don't feel that most people, unless they have a proper environment and a lot of time throughout the day, could handle the "fieldie".

They'd consider the dog a nutcase....and hyper. I believe that's why most field Golden Retriever breeders require that the pups go to "hunting" families, or families who will work with the dog in something like agility, etc. And perhaps, that's why you don't see many in rescue. The homes are well screened.

BUT....the mixed lines....field and show....can produce some nice typical looking Goldens with field energy levels. And, these ARE often the ones you see in shelters, IMO.


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## GoldenShamus (Feb 26, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> The difference, in our house, is that we can walk our "show lines" Golden (we have one) twice a day, let her play outside for an hour or two with her doggie friends (they play hard with one another), and then she's fine with cuddling up in the evening and getting brushed. Oh...and she needs/wants rest inbetween the activities above. She'll come in and nap for a while.
> 
> The field Golden can go and go and go and go......and go more. We walk her twice a day, play frisbee with her for about 30 minutes, toss bumpers in the pond for another hour, let her play outside with her buddies for another few hours during the day, and she would/could STILL keep going if we'd let her.
> 
> ...


Thank you for giving me an answer to my question, I appreciate it. 

This is what I've thought. It only makes sense based on what I hear from breeders of field goldens, but it's nice to hear a response from someone who lives having a field and a confirmation golden everyday.

My golden is very satisfied with a mid-day walk, walk in the early evening, and play time. Of course, when it warms up, there will be more activity including swimming at our lake cabin or at my parents house; but that is only in the summertime. I would say my golden has a moderate activity level and I think we are well suited for one another. I guess that's the key, matching the right activity and temperament level in a dog and owner.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> Thank you for giving me an answer to my question, I appreciate it.


You're welcome. 

And, believe it or not, we have a Newf that, until 3 mos ago could and did keep up with our little Maggie, every step of the way. 

However, as Mira (the Newf) is getting older, she's now 3 yrs and 3 mos old, she'll settle down and rest occassionally (about 5 minutes)....or stand in the pond and fish for hours. Maggie doesn't have the patience of a fisherdog, so she'll bounce off and find another playmate!

Oh...and Mira is as good a water retriever as any "retriever" I've ever seen. She's also tireless in the water. On land, however, she's pathetic. :lol: She and Maggie are super competitive when it comes to water retrieves. One wins at times due to speed.......the other due to pure power.

By the way....Maggie the field type Golden is 3 years and 7 mos old, and shows absolutely NO signs of slowing down.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

Guess i'm the exception too the rule, I own a field golden and yes, he can go and go and go....but that is only when I take him there. I control all situations by training, and pack leadership. You can't train energy out of a dog, but you can train to harness that energy. As well as bring in your pack leadership. I do think when one has other dogs, that makes a difference if they are also high energy. Two high energy dogs will keep each other in such a high mode. I think some will see this when they head to a dog park with there dogs, theres a lot of high energy in there and that alone will take a golden into high gear, do too wanting to play.

Try taking any line of dog, and never training it and see what you have, this is purpose behind OB. It lays down ground rules and sets pack leadership. You give them exercise, disapline and affection....and no matter what the line you got a beautiful dog....I remember SC telling me once when Kode was fully trained you will have a beautiful dog....and he was right. And Kode is field. What was meant by that is everything is controlled by the training. Of course there is also exercise in there as for any golden.

There are plenty of these dogs out in the world today, and they are controlled by training and pack leadership, hunting these dogs does not take up twelve months of the year, these dogs believe it or not can and do become couch potatoes the other parts of the year by many out there, they are that good around the home and under control by there owners and make the very best of companions. Just hit any hunting forum and you will see. I do believe one needs to be active, but I do believe no matter what the line the person needs to be active to own a golden retriever since they are a working breed and they are sopposed to be active. All these dogs are not worked every single day, and all of them do not get walks every single day. And they are field bred dogs. I'm not saying not to walk the dogs by saying this, I am just saying it like it is.

The rescues come in for many reasons and although I don't know what there lines all are, I am guessing many are from mixed lines, puppy mills, etc. To say it is just because of energy level is to me to say it is because of lack of training and pack leadership. Many have taken on this dog (Golden Retriever) do to some saying the golden is so laid back and the perfect pet that many have just went out and grabbed one, later to find out they can be a handful in the beginning....this goes for both, conformation and field. There are also many reasons I am sure these dogs find there ways into rescues, but for the most part I think alot of it is as I spoke of above.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Goldndust said:


> Guess i'm the exception too the rule, I own a field golden and yes, he can go and go and go....but that is only when I take him there. I control all situations by training, and pack leadership. You can't train energy out of a dog, but you can train to harness that energy. As well as bring in your pack leadership. I do think when one has other dogs, that makes a difference if they are also high energy. Two high energy dogs will keep each other in such a high mode. I think some will see this when they head to a dog park with there dogs, theres a lot of high energy in there and that alone will take up golden into high gear, do too wanting to play.
> 
> Try taking any line of dog, and never training it and see what you have, this is purpose behind OB. It lays down ground rules and sets pack leadership. You give them exercise, disapline and affection....and no matter what the line you got a beautiful dog....I remember SC telling me once Kode was fully trained you will have a beautiful dog....and he was right. And Kode is field.
> 
> ...



Absolutely. How you live with the dog has a LOT to do with it. For all his drive and energy, Quiz is a great house dog - because I've taught him to be one from the day he came home. When he's inside, he's happy to lounge and chew his Nylabone, but when we're working, he's ON. I've taught him to be "drive on demand" which is perfect for me. It takes a LOT of work as a puppy and a lifetime of work to maintain in, but it can be done.

Now, I do think that there can be some personalities that are beyond "drive" and become neurotic and that can be harder to channel into the right thing. I see that more in Labs than Goldens, though. (And Border Collies, but we won't bring them into the mix!) 

I always tell clients, "Every minute you spend with your dog, SOMEBODY is being trained!" It's a constant process. When the owner is providing clear leadership, it's easier for even the driviest of dogs to settle and relax when "off the clock".

-Stephanie


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Also, many people make the mistake of always trying to tire out the dog physically when you can do a more thorough job tiring out the dog MENTALLY!

A quick power nap can recharge physical batteries much quicker than mental ones. Physical exercise is absolutely necessary, but mental exercise is too. Even something as simple as taking your walk in a busy, urban area can offer enough mental stimulation to have a greater affect on the dog. Regular meals out of a KONG toy, etc. offers a great mental workout, along with simple obedience training.

-S


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

Oh, Monomer. I believe you asked some question back further. I'm not sure what you meant by interchangable? Can you explain?

For the rest I will give my opinions.
do they even look alike? I don't think one can base the field, or the comformation on looks alone. The pedigree tells all.
I do think they differ in looks too some degree, but that doesn't say much because your dealing with alot of field/conformation lines out there. To say one is the other, you really can't. Titles in the pedigree will tell you also basically what that golden is, and where it will best excel I believe anyway. My opinion!

Do they act alike:
They should, there all Golden Retrievers. There not all bred the same though, meaning there is some bad breeding out there, but if there all well bred...they all should follow the standard. Temperment should be there if that is what you meant by acting the same. I do believe they all have there own personalities though, so that may be a broad question to answer. But standard wise, that temperment should be there.

I agree with you, just because a field dog is a field....doesn't make him the best out of them all out there when going into a sport with them such as agility, hunt, rescue, etc.

Goes the same for Show, just because a dog is show doesn't mean they will make it, or be the best in that area. I think when your talking the show world, as well as the hunting world the competition is fierce.

Can a show golden successfully compete in field? Yes, just as a field golden could win in a show ring... 

Compete, yes....win.......well, what I will say is the competion is fierce, even for the field bred golden it is tough. I will leave it at that! Field testing is the hardest of all, hunt testing is easier.

Yes, just as a field golden could win in a show ring. This I disagree with, a field golden could make it in the ring most likely, but there not given the chance. The color in some will hold some of them back. So there you go again, it is a broad question. Some are lighter, but there are many that are very dark. The color however has no effect on the dogs usefulness for work or companionship. But there is that color thing, lighter also can be a problem for the standard as it is now even though those dark golden were around from the beginning of time.

So what has happened to cause an emergence of two separate lines? Its not a question of which one is the better, or healthier, or 'proper'... its only about 'fit', such as in which type better 'fits' one's lifestyle. 

No, it is not about lifestyle at all! That is not the reason for the split!!! All goldens are an active breed, they are of a working breed of dog. That is not it. The split comes do too one breeding for one purpose, while the other is breeding for another purpose.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Di....I agree with you, in theory. Training definitely makes all the difference in the world. But how many people are as into training their dog as you are?? Really?

I feel that most people do not have the time to spend with such a high energy dog. Running it on weekends, and a couple of walks around the neighborhood on weekdays just isn't enough. Nor is playing hide and seek once a day.

You spend a lot of time with Kody. You spend a lot of time outdoors with him, and make sure he has the chance to burn off his energy every day. Of course, sometimes the weather isn't great for the running and playing, and these dogs are fine with being in the house for a day or so, but I still don't think they're are as easy to "maintain" as some other Golden lines are.

I'd definitely classify them as "high-maintenance" dogs.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

So how does one work and keep up? Is it possible?


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## GoldenShamus (Feb 26, 2007)

Goldndust said:


> Guess i'm the exception too the rule, I own a field golden and yes, he can go and go and go....but that is only when I take him there. I control all situations by training, and pack leadership. You can't train energy out of a dog, but you can train to harness that energy. As well as bring in your pack leadership. I do think when one has other dogs, that makes a difference if they are also high energy. Two high energy dogs will keep each other in such a high mode. I think some will see this when they head to a dog park with there dogs, theres a lot of high energy in there and that alone will take a golden into high gear, do too wanting to play.
> 
> Try taking any line of dog, and never training it and see what you have, this is purpose behind OB. It lays down ground rules and sets pack leadership. You give them exercise, disapline and affection....and no matter what the line you got a beautiful dog....I remember SC telling me once when Kode was fully trained you will have a beautiful dog....and he was right. And Kode is field. What was meant by that is everything is controlled by the training. Of course there is also exercise in there as for any golden.
> 
> ...


Dianna,

I think you are such a great resource and you do so much for your Kody and Bianka. I just wonder how many owners of true high energy dogs actually do meet their needs. I also think it's a discussion on here among owners who are really caring and go above and beyond, but I'm not sure this slice of the dog world can be compared to the general population. 

I also agree wholeheartedly with you that dogs of all temperaments, activity levels, breeds, etc. end up in rescue. I'm well aware of that. I do think however that true high energy dogs will have a hard time getting their needs met with people/families that are unprepared or do not have the time or willingness to work with them. 

Going back to what you originally said, I don't think Kody is an exception to the rule (activity level wise) I just think you are--I mean that as a compliment. I simply think Kody has an awesome mom who puts tons of time, energy, exercise, patience, and love into her boy.


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## GoldenShamus (Feb 26, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> Di....I agree with you, in theory. Training definitely makes all the difference in the world. But how many people are as into training their dog as you are?? Really?
> 
> I feel that most people do not have the time to spend with such a high energy dog. Running it on weekends, and a couple of walks around the neighborhood on weekdays just isn't enough. Nor is playing hide and seek once a day.
> 
> ...


Thank you, you hit the nail on the head IMO, that's exactly what I was thinking in regards to the amount of exercise, etc. 

If we aren't realistic about this, we aren't being fair to the dogs either, in my opinion. I love all dogs and all goldens, but are all activity levels good for all people? I've only been involved in golden rescue for 1 1/2 years but even in that short time, I think the answer is a resounding no. And then what happens?
It depends on the owner, hopefully the are re-homed, sometimes they are not. I have a lab that lives in a kennel down the street, breaks my heart--he is not exercised and is mostly kept from his family. He was too much for the house--actually his owners let him down by not providing the amount of exercise he needs and therefore he became destructive in their home. MY POINT IS- these owners should have done their research and the breeder should have done a better job because this family is not interested in exercise or training, and what an awful existence for this lab as a result.


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## GoldenShamus (Feb 26, 2007)

This was an attempted delete, but it didn't work!


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

FlyingQuizini, Monomer,..

What other ideas are there for challenging your dog mentally? Wiggles can extract biscuits/treats from Kong Balls within 10 minutes and he can take the squeaker eggs out of his ICube and Dino/Turtle Egg Babies in 30 seconds.

The only toy that has challenged him was when we placed some large treats into a Hol-ee Mol-ee Extreme ball and the treats were too hard for him to crush and get out.

Wiggles is by no means destructive, but I would like to tire him out sometimes  Everyday he gets at least 2 30-35 minute walks with random stops to work on his obedience, and in the house DH wrestles with him and then we also do retrieves with balls. We don't have a fenced yard yet (our lot was graded very late in the season and they didn't sod the yard either) so we can't invite doggie neighbours over. Wiggles has a high prey drive so he is not reliable off leash yet and we still have to work mroe on recall.

Any ideas?

Christine aka tintallie


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

challenge your golden retriever to become a retriever.. I reccommend the book "the 10 minute retriever" by john and amy dahl...available at amazon...


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> Any ideas?


Start (if you aren't already) going to obedience classes, and practice a lot at home.

You can do the stay, down, and things like that in the house. Put the long lead on and work in a hallway.

Once the weather gets better, use a check cord (long lead....about 30') and start practicing outside. Tie the cord to a tree/fence, etc. and teach that way.

Greg has the right idea, but you can't really teach retrieving and recall until you're in a totally secure area, or have a LONG lead on him. 

For water retrieves, you can use a water ski rope. It's lightweight, it floats, and you can put a clip on the end to hook on the collar. However, be sure to use gloves if you have to "reel" your dog back into shore. Those ski ropes can give you rope burn if he decides to go the other way!!


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

10 minutes sounds about right for Wiggles as he loses focus after 20-25 minutes of obedience lessons.

What exactly is a forced retrieve?


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## nrhareiner (Feb 27, 2007)

I am late into this discusion and have not read through every entry. 

I have had dogs about all my life and most have been retrievers and most of them have been hunting dogs which I have trained my self. I have found that stating them early is best. However teaching them to retrieve has never been a problem. Keeping them interested has not been a big problem either. Tiering them out can be a chalange. I have always tought all my hunting dogs not only verble comands and wistles but also sign lanquede/hand signals. This really keeps them thinking and helps with the retieve. I am now training my 3 month old. She is now retreiving very well and returning to me on comand. I rearly to never use a line unless nessicary. I have not used one on her yet. She has sever verble comands and I am now working in sign/hand comands. Most of the time she not only retieves the ball but a corgi. Long storry.

Any way I have used sign/hand comands with many dogs and it really will help in many areas including tiering them out. They really need to think and it halps them understand many other things. Also keeps them looking at you or back at you if then get lost or confuesed on a retieval.

Heidi


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## RiMan (Jan 8, 2006)

RickGibbs said:


> The best example I have is my two dogs... Samson is definitely from a field line, where Cosmo is show....


so are mine,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Hey Tin -

My "busy" puppies never eat a meal out a bowl, it's always out of a tightly-stuffed KONG toy. (I use the original KONG.) Lots of ways to make KONG stuffing easier or harder depending on the dog. To make harder try:

- Packing stuff in tighter. I use the back of a butter knife to really pack stuff in there.

- Mix the dog's kibble with a little wet food, cottage cheese, yougurt, etc. to make it just a bit "pasty". Stuff in KONG and then freeze. When frozen, takes way longer to get out.

- Anything frozen in a KONG takes longer. Peanut butter, half a banana, etc.

- Melt Velveeta in the KONG. Be sure to let cool before you give it to the dog.

- If you have access to a secure yard, take the kibble and toss it out like you're feeding chickens. Ask him to "find it".

- Feed a meal out of a Buster Cube. (Do a google search to find Buster Cube)

- Walk in the busiest, urban area you can find. The new sights, sounds, smells, surfaces will help tire him out mentally.

- Take him with you on a day of errands. Lots of urban mental exercise.

- Teach him anything - tricks, obedience, etc. Practice often. 10 mins several times a day is good.

- Teach him how to enjoy lying around and chewing a bone. It's a great indoor behavior and yes, you can actually train it!

Hope these ideas help get you started!

-Stephanie


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I think Wiggles is still quite young, right? You need to select age appropriate exercises both mentally and physically. So, how old is Wiggles now?

Just seeing new and wonderful things, constantly being exposed to new experiences is a mental stimulating activity in itself... like Steph says, take him everywhere with you for starters. Make your walks varied if possible... drive to a different location to start the walk for instance.

What's the weather now like... if its what I would imagine in a northern place (Calgary?) your options are probably still rather limited at this time of year... correct? Are you in town, edge of town, or out in the 'sticks'? Water? If you tell me more about the current situation, I should be able to give you some ideas that would be applicable.

I do not believe mental and physical exercise are separate activities... most activities supply outlets for both of these types of energies. And its important to provided outlets for both of these needs everyday to have a well-balanced and (mostly) well-behaved puppy.


There have been many posts to this thread in the last two days. I have not responded to everything simply because the many interesting points and views and directions of this thread has overwhelmed me for the present (my job and my wife and Sidney have to take precedence... we spent all yesterday at the dog park!) and I can't put together a HUGE multi-faceted posting to address everything this thread has me thinking about. However that doesn't mean I'm not reading everything and not having thoughts go through my head... I am enjoying the discussion points in every posting here, I just can't acknowledge them all right now.


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

Monomer, Steph, AG,

Wiggles is now 1 year old so he is still limited to walking and I walk him 30-35min morning and evening, although it has been a little less because the wiggly guy has kennel cough that he must have picked up from the Calgary Kennel Club show when we were visiting the breeder.

We take him around in the car and he loves the rides so we get him out to the different pet stores and go for walks around my in-laws house across town, etc. Currently, the weather has been rather mild (although March did start out as a lion!) with chinook winds bringing temperatures to the 5-15C mark. On average it's around 0C (32F for those folk south of the 49th parallel). We've been having snow, chinook melting snow, snow, chinook melting snow, repeat.

We live on the edge of the city in a newer subdivision (mind you my parents live only one neighbourhood over and it's been the edge of town for 25+ years) and we do have dog parks that are fenced. However, I'm not comfortable taking Wiggles to these parks since it seems like a LOT of dog owners skip out on obedience. Wiggles has had a few dogs try to get at him just in our neighbourhood and he's not the one provoking the dogs. I usually have him on loose leash at a near heel now and I have dogs barking like crazy and dashing at us. Nothing worse than the owners letting their dogs off leash, dog is growling and they are trying to convince you..."my dog loves everyone!"

The neighbourhood has mostly narrow lots, some playground parks (not fenced), some storm ponds (won't even consider letting the dog go in since it's storm drain run off), a good amount of traffic still. As city by-laws dictate, dog is to be under control and on leash unless in an indicated area. I dress for the weather and make the dog do that too (boots to avoid salt and snow balls on his pads) so the temperature doesn't bother us unless it's -30C

Wiggles is fed a raw diet so stuffing it in a Kong would be extremely messy since we feed him stuff like sardines as well...He already works for his food (ie. a series of sits and downs, a long down or sit-stay) and he chews on RMBs on his special cushion.

Wiggles is a smart cookie and it has been a challenge to train him at times. The clicker treat training really didn't do much even though he is food motivated. It actually set him up to willfully disobey when he knew there were no treats. So the current trainer we have does use compulsion training using a choke collar. When I look at him, I don't think conformation (he is) or field because I see a dog with very high prey drive, I see a retriever and I think he could do both. He can really run fast for a long time (DH let him get away once and he chased a rabbit and got it's fur) and he can be a couch potato too.

Monomer, you are right,..most of the time that I issue a command, I do the hand signal and verbal command because I know he will see it before hearing it. I have silently given him commands too and I know it works. I'm also planning for the inevitable that he will get old and will either have deteriorating sight or hearing 

i think that's a good amount of background...let me know if there's anything else to add to help with suggestions.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Speaking of exercising we are just getting ready to run out the door down to the softball fields to play some fetch. The snow has been melting faster recently and yesterday at a dog park (95-miles south of here) we played fetch with a tennis ball (ChuckIt!) for the first time in a couple of months... that's really what Sidney likes to do the most... if its still too much snow today it will have to be a 'frisbee' day (an Easy Glider really).

If you want to see just how much visually communication oriented Wiggles is over verbal communication... try this: say one command but give the 'visual sign' for a different action... he WILL always end up obeying the visual command... just try it and see if I'm not right about that.

A year of age!... forget the hips and joints, just don't have him jumping really high stuff or running on pavement for extended periods. Wiggles needs a lot more exercise at his age... like a 20-40 minute briskly 'heeled' walk but *also one or two more extended periods of free running types of exercise every day*. Fetching (both the land and the water activities), biking on trails, swimming... these activities will provide both the mental and physical exercise Wiggles needs... and we are talking 40-minutes to over an hour of this type of aerobic exercising each time. *Strive for at least 2-hours total of exercise* (including the heeling) of some sort everyday... I'm absolutely serious on this! You can also play 'find me' outdoors... provided Wiggles finds you highly attractive... that's whenever Wiggles is not paying attention to you, use that opportunity to hide (behind a tree or bush, etc) and call to him just once... when he finds you just laugh like the dickens (a treat might be appreciated as well however just the 'relief' of connection with his alpha again should be reward enough). Once he gets the idea, you can dispense with the 'hint' of calling his name, he will start paying more attention to your whereabouts (a really good thing) and it will become harder for you to slip away un-noticed (again, a really good thing).

You also need to get Wiggles more dog-dog socialization opportunities. How good are you at 'reading' dogs? Growling and fierce facial displays are not necessarily aggression, it all depends upon the 'other body signals' being given and the specifics of the context in which it is occurring. If you are not yet too adept at understanding doggie body language then error on the side of safety always and don't allow the meeting... however do you know other friendly dogs and their owners whom with you might set up regular play-dates at one of the parks in town with? This is one big advantage of attending several obedience, agility, etc. type training courses locally... you get to meet other like-minded responsible owners and their dogs... you can then try to set-up doggie activities outside of the formal class situation. Social interactions of all kinds are mentally stimulating and provide a perfect opportunity for guiding your dog's actions when necessary to teach him the proper etiquette.

However, most of these activities can only be safely done if you've got a proofed "come". The recall is the single hardest command to teach and proof for any dog, regardless of breed... yet it is the single most important command your dog will ever learn, it could save his life one day! If there is only one perfect command a dog must know, this is it. If Wiggles does not have a perfect recall then it makes getting him enough 'free' exercise much more difficult. If you are interested in a way to teach and proof this command PM me and I will tell you how to do it through a reply (by PM).

I really gotta go with the dog, NOW! He is now trying to take control of the mouse from me...


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I read this entire thread with great interest as we are trying to decide how to focus our puppy, Tango. We spent two entire years researching and looking for her. It is interesting that dual breeding usually results in a dog who cannot quite reach as high as his/her parents in either conformation or field trialing but, once in a magic while, creates the Firemark's Push Comes To Shove. So we have a lot of suspense about Tango, and it is hard to choose an initial direction for her as she matures.

Dad side
AM CH SHR Springcreek Everlore All Time Hi RN WC VC BOSS CGC	
AM CH SHR Sundown Legends of the Sand CD JH WC OA OAJ AJP OAP VCX CGC	
Am. CH Evergreen's Blue Angel NA, WC, CGC, VC, SDHF, OS
BIS BISS Am. CH. Goodtime's Best Case Scenario CD JH WC VCX OS SDHF


Mom side
Kuventre You Were Born TaFly MH	
U-UD Topbrass Shudabin A Cowboy UDX, MNH, WCX (OS)	
OTCH KC Jubilee of Selfaire UDX MH
OTCH Shoreland's Big Harry Deal ** OS


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

It would be unlikely for an outcrossed puppy like Tango to be as good a field dog as her mom or show dog as her dad, right? Is it possible she'd be all around? What if she were then linebred back to one of the big dogs on the field side or big dogs on the show side like Casey(BIS BISS Am. CH. Goodtime's Best Case Scenario CD JH WC VCX OS SDHF). Would the pups then have the benfit of outcrossing? Not that I am going to breed her! Just want to learn about it all. . .


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