# Thoughts? Could be pedigree of our future puppy



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I see some of Tucker's relatives in there. His Dad, too!


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Gilmours Grandpop is in there 

CH Pebwin XPDNC OS SDHF



Kimm said:


> I see some of Tucker's relatives in there. His Dad, too!


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

bumping up


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I hope some of our breeders give their opinions..... esp about the COI.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> I hope some of our breeders give their opinions..... esp about the COI.


Yes, the COI is pretty high and I'd love for the other breeders to share their thoughts.

I'd like to know more about COI in general. Even with a B.S. in Biology, it gets a little hairy to understand all that goes into selecting a pairing. Anyone have other links to a simplistic explanation of COI?


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

bumping up. I'd love to eavesdrop on a discussion of COI with some of our breeders..........


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

We'd need a link to the test breeding in k9data to get the COI of the pairing, rather than the individuals. While both have a fairly high number, there are not a lot of dogs in common between them in the first few generations.


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## beccacc31 (Aug 17, 2009)

Kimm said:


> I see some of Tucker's relatives in there. His Dad, too!


It seems funny to see Mulder as a great grandpa, since I am bringing home a Mulder son in less than 48 hours.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

sterregold said:


> We'd need a link to the test breeding in k9data to get the COI of the pairing, rather than the individuals. While both have a fairly high number, there are not a lot of dogs in common between them in the first few generations.


I'll see if I can figure out how to do that....:crossfing

Ok- Here it is: http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=360904

It says COI is not available at this time and to check back. Also, will this show up if someone searches for it? I've never used this feature before.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

yes, the test breeding is showing up.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

It will take a couple of weeks for the COI to show up. They are run in batches periodically. There are other ways of determining that COI but it is very math intensive!

Here are some sites which discuss COIs
http://www.isogenic.info/html/inbreeding___it_s_effects.html
http://www.leonberger-database.com/explanation%20COI.htm


Some breeders firmly believe in using breedings that produce a low COI as a way of avoiding hereditary disease while others firmly believe in tight linebreeding, and in being ruthless in removing affected/carrier individuals from the breeding population as a way of fighting those diseases. There isn't really a consensus on it yet. That said, if one is going to linebreed, one had better be pretty well-versed in the traits those dogs carry...Look up the Elhew pointers if you want to read about an intensively bred line of dogs. He got incredible results but it also required extreme discipline.


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## SunGold (Feb 27, 2007)

Aww, Evergreen's Mountain Sunset is in there - one of my favorite dogs.
I like the Dam's pedigree very much!


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

COI is up...

10 generation: 12.65 %
12 generation: 16.43%

As I said before, I don't think anything is set-in-stone about the breeding. 

Your thoughts are appreciated!

http://www.k9data.com/coi.asp?ID=360904


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## Goldnbear (Dec 28, 2009)

I like the Dam's pedigree too, I have a bitch out of Evergreen's Mountain Sunset, and Lily and Ryder are awesome! I would not be worried about these COI's btw.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

The COI is a Co-efficient of inbreeding. Basically in 10 or 12 generations it tells you how many times a dog is showing up in the pedigree. If a dog or dogs is/are showing up in a pedigree a lot of times in the 10 or 12 generations, the co-efficient of inbreeding will be higher, if you don't have them showing up multiple times, the co-efficients will be lower. This is just one tool for breeding and you can always ask the breeder what their goal is for the breeding and what they are hoping to accomplish with the breeding and why they are chosing this pairing.

When breeding a girl, there are lots of things to consider and a COI is just one of them.


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## Macretriever (Sep 9, 2009)

Ok so I'll admit I'm a novice at reading clearances but is the "fair" rating on the hips a concern? What about the cataracts? Do his awards overshadow these ratings?

Again I'm still learning this stuff so please forgive my ignorance if I am misinterpreting these things.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

These are very good and legitimate questions  No, the Fair hips are not a concern in and of themselves. Fair still means no signs of DJD (degenerative joint disease). Whether the hips are Excellent, Good or Fair, I still look at the history around them-sire, dam, full and half siblings. 

The cataracts are a breeder's option and the sire was still given a CERF number, meaning that at this time, they are not felt to be inherited. I would not want to double up on them by any means if I were to use a dog with them, and would want to check the CERF history as well.

Breeding is not a "one size fits all" exercise. If the dog had the pedigree I wanted, conformationally was a good match for my bitch and had the temperament I was looking for, I would have no problem using him. If however he wasn't the "perfect" match I was looking for, that plus the cataract might be enough for me to look elsewhere.


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

I've heard of Gambler before but not the Dam. If it feels right, go for it.
Have you met either of the parents? I think that means so much.

I was lucky enough to meet both of Griff's parents. I should have known.. he has his mother's personality. (It's all about ME!) :doh:


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

As far as the Fair hips goes.......Fair is still a passing OFA. You can't get totally caught up in the rating of FAIR, GOOD, or EXCELLENT as they are all passing and none of them are showing signs of degenerative joint disease according to the OFA. There is not a huge difference between a OFA fair and an OFA excellent as many people may think. This is genetics and not fool proof and we are using a genotype instead of a DNA marker or an exact science. What is more important is to look around the pedigree-look to see if the sire and dam and grandparents have clearances and see what those ratings are-if they are all fair, then maybe the pedigree is a little weaker in the hip department and so that can be questionable. However, it rarely happens that easy.

The same would hold true for the cataracts. He is on the young side for cataracts even of an unknown significance to be showing up, as it is more common to see them in older dogs and those are more related to them aging. Our one male has a cataract in one eye that was from an injury but it still has to be noted on his CERF form. It can actually be helpful to go the to CERF website to check to see if the dog had previous exams and if those were clear. Plus, there is always the option of asking about the actual CERF exam bubble form to see any notations that were written there from the opthomologist. Not every breeder sends in every CERF form every year, especially if the dog or dogs aren't being bred that year but they do keep the copies of the CERF bubble forms.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

This is all great information to know, thanks everyone. 

This breeding is just one of many that we were looking at for our future pup. However, the breeder isn't sure if and when her next breeding will be or whom she'll use for a stud. She did use this stud and a sister to this female for her last litter. I did meet both dogs, they were just wonderful! 

My husband and I are still looking because I think that we'll be ready for a puppy before she's ready to breed again! I also want to find a pedigree that has a dam/sire with some obedience titling.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

When looking at the titles, especially when a breeder is already showing in one venue, try to remember that there are also so many hours in the day!! Breeders are people too and many have families and children and full time jobs and the dogs on top of it so trying to find the funds and time to compete in multiple venues can be tough.

Meet the parents of the dogs, meet the breeder of the dogs, decide if you want a dog from primarily conformation lines or with some of both-if you want to compete with this dog in some way, talk to people who have dogs from this breeder, whether it be show dogs, obedience dogs, agility, etc-are they supportive, helpful etc?? Contact breeders you admire and like their ethics and ask what breedings they have coming up?? Not every breeder has their website up to date with their breeding plans. Decide what exactly you want from a breeder and then go find it-you will, there are lots of wonderful breeders with lots of great breedings coming up!


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