# Trying to Find a Puppy



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Litters are seasonal and you are Afew months late, there should be more available around june


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Hello!!! 

Hopefully someone near your area will pipe in about perspective breeders. Regardless, there is still hope!!! I doubt you need to wait until June to find a litter. You can ask around at pet supply stores or vet clinics, trainer centers even for breeder recommendations as a starting point and then go do your own research from there. 

Just remember, your puppy is out there. 

((((((Hugs))))))


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Sorry you've had a tough time finding a breeder. 

Have you tried the So Cal club referral?

You may check this out as well. 
http://goldenretrievercentral.org/breeders.html


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Have you considered looking beyond 200 miles? My opinion is that I would rather work out the logistics of getting the pup home from the right breeder.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

I wouldn't mind going on a roadtrip to pick up a dog if the breeder I found was the right breeder. Don't narrow your scope to outlying area's, I drove almost 11 hours for my boy and 7 hours for my girl (and both are the light of my life.)

In order to make sure you're getting a well bred dog ensure that the breeder does either conformance or performance shows. They should also do clearances for hip, elbow, heart and eyes and post them in a manner in which you can find the results quickly with OFFA. English Creme is generally a ripoff as there is no such breed of dog that I'm aware of.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

I got my pup last April from Essex Golden Retrievers which is in Lodi.
BREEDER OF: GOLDEN RETRIEVER PUPPIES FOR SALE & HUNTING GOLDEN RETRIEVERS IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA

I don't know when they are planning their next breeding, or how well they are thought of. I thought they were competent and had field goldens, which is what I wanted. She also has two English Creams. 

Check what others have to say.

Maddie, the puppy we have, is a super dog.


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## Uncle Si (Feb 23, 2013)

Hiker - Our breeder is in Lodi and just had a litter last week. We lost our last Golden, which was also from her, last November so we are very excited. Her name is Melanie Foster and her kennel is Firemark Retrievers. I wouldn't go anywhere else, particularly if you want a hunting Golden. Melanie is great.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Gwen_Dandridge said:


> I got my pup last April from Essex Golden Retrievers which is in Lodi.
> BREEDER OF: GOLDEN RETRIEVER PUPPIES FOR SALE & HUNTING GOLDEN RETRIEVERS IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA
> 
> I don't know when they are planning their next breeding, or how well they are thought of. I thought they were competent and had field goldens, which is what I wanted. She also has two English Creams.
> ...


 
I think that they have a litter advertised in www.gundogbreeders.com 

Gundogbreeders.com is a good source for competition bred pups. Regardless, do check clearances and make sure the CERF is current.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Uncle Si said:


> Hiker - Our breeder is in Lodi and just had a litter last week. We lost our last Golden, which was also from her, last November so we are very excited. Her name is Melanie Foster and her kennel is Firemark Retrievers. I wouldn't go anywhere else, particularly if you want a hunting Golden. Melanie is great.


 
I can't imagine that Melanie will have many pups left in that litter. Her pups go fast!! The girl in my Avatar is a Firemark granddaughter doing a nice water entry at about 10 months old.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

A few breeders to contact are Aubridge, Regency, Masters, and Osprey. Ask them if they don't have any litters coming up if they know of someone who does  good luck 


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## oldhiker (Jan 11, 2013)

These are the breeders who haven't returned my emails. Perhaps they have no puppies planned, or they find buyers just by word of mouth. The local puppy referral coordinator hasn't returned my emails, either, so I assume there just aren't any puppies coming from members of the breed association. Someone earlier said it was a matter of the season and there would be more later.

The AKC web site shows numerous litters avaiaalble nearby, but none of them do health screenings, such as OFA hips & elbow checks. Are these absolutely essential? I know they are in German Shepherds, which we've had before. 

Anyhow, it's frustrating that it's so hard to find a quality Golden puppy.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Call them! Try the phone. Sometimes things just get overlooked.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

I believe that Essex Golden Retriever may have two male puppies from the last breeding. You might check.

For Sale: Golden Retriever


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## mayasdad (Dec 5, 2012)

I had to travel about 250 miles from san diego to bakersfield to find a breeder with puppies available. She has been home for a couple weeks and it has been well worth the drive. She slept in her crate for the entire trip except for a couple potty stops.


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

oldhiker said:


> The AKC web site shows numerous litters avaiaalble nearby, but none of them do health screenings, such as OFA hips & elbow checks. Are these absolutely essential? I know they are in German Shepherds, which we've had before.
> 
> Anyhow, it's frustrating that it's so hard to find a quality Golden puppy.


In a word "yes". 

The proper clearances are essential. While they are far from a guarantee of health, it does drastically reduce the chances your pup will be unhealthy. 

More than that, to me it speaks to the breeders commitment to the code of ethics laid out by the Golden Retriever parent club. It tells me they care about the health of the breed in general, and the health of their breeding stock. To me the proper clearances speak to an attention to detail and responsibility. 

It took me since last July to find the right pup. It was a frustrating, expensive, harrowing journey for me. But we brought home the perfect pup for us just this past Saturday. 

Hang in there, it's worth it in the end.


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## Anders&Aureus (Feb 13, 2013)

*The mental fatigue of finding the puppy*

I cannot offer any suggestions for breeders in your area, however wanted to chime in on your experience as I felt the same way. We started thinking about getting a puppy about this time last year and I began contacting a couple of breeders in the Fort Worth area (where we live). Only one actually answered, the rest never even returned messages (both phone and email). Needless to say I was frustrated just like you, so I widened my search and found the puppy mills online which quickly scared me off.

Anyway, I contacted somebody in Austin, TX who was truly a people and dog person and is very well connected and knowledgable. Her name is Mia Nieman and once I explained what I was looking for and was considering a breeder in Montana and Oregon she just happened to get us in contact with somebody in the Dallas area who had a pup that was being kept for show but had to give up because of an undescended testicle. But it took us almost a year from the decision to get a puppy to having a puppy and required contacting someone outside our metro area.

I diverge, the skinny is: don't get too discouraged, stay persistent and if all else fails try Mia (Amica Goldens) as she probably knows somebody who knows somebody in California. If you do contact her just be prepared to spend some time on the phone and (be forewarned) she will try to get you to buy a Texas dog . And tell her Anders and Aureus recommended her.

Good luck and we hope to see pics of your pup soon!!


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## oldhiker (Jan 11, 2013)

This afternoon, I called the puppy referral coordinator with the NORCAL Golden Retriever Club. She said there was just a shortage of litters right now; just a few months ago, there were lots of puppies. There will be lots more in the future. There's not a puppy season; it's jujst luck. They list some of the litters and breeders on the NORCAL website, but she said that many breeders prefer not to be on the web list, so I should call every couple of weeks. She was very nice and helpful and I am sure she will steer me towards a puppy sometime.


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## oldhiker (Jan 11, 2013)

*I give up!*

After another call to the puppy coordinator, and filling out four more online breeder questionaires, I have given up on a Golden Retriever, at least for now. The puppy coordinator has no information, and three of the breeders didn't answer. The fourth told me to try again next year and also said that all breeders she knew were also all sold out for this year. 

Instead, I am getting a German Shepherd from a nationally famous breeder. It took one email and one phone call to arrange this. These dogs all have great health guarantees and great backgrounds in showing, obedience, and herding. The litter is expected 3/27 and they can go to new homes 8 weeks later. 

Perhaps when I next want a puppy, there will be more available from quality breeders. Right now, you have to deal with a backyard breeder or a puppy mill.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

oldhiker said:


> Perhaps when I next want a puppy, there will be more available from quality breeders. Right now, you have to deal with a backyard breeder or a puppy mill.


Good luck with your new pup!

As for pups available from quality breeders, I take a slightly different approach. As opposed to shopping around for available pups, I place more emphasis on finding a breeder or two that I click with and has a breeding philosophy/approach that I agree with as well as a track record of producing goldens that would be a good fit for my lifestyle--then it's a matter of waiting for the right litter & good things are worth waiting for.


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

oldhiker said:


> After another call to the puppy coordinator, and filling out four more online breeder questionaires, I have given up on a Golden Retriever, at least for now. The puppy coordinator has no information, and three of the breeders didn't answer. The fourth told me to try again next year and also said that all breeders she knew were also all sold out for this year.
> 
> Instead, I am getting a German Shepherd from a nationally famous breeder. It took one email and one phone call to arrange this. These dogs all have great health guarantees and great backgrounds in showing, obedience, and herding. The litter is expected 3/27 and they can go to new homes 8 weeks later.
> 
> Perhaps when I next want a puppy, there will be more available from quality breeders. Right now, you have to deal with a backyard breeder or a puppy mill.


Sorry to hear that. I think you're really going to miss the Golden temperament, but good luck with your GSD.

Just so you're aware, I don't think your experience is breed specific, but possibly bad timing. My experience was opposite of yours, I had a GSD breeder screw me out of a $500 deposit and 9 months of time. A Golden breeder who didn't have a pup for me spent hours of her time helping me find the right puppy, for no compensation at all.

As to your assertion that you have to deal with a backyard breeder or a puppy mill, I disagree. I brought home a beautiful boy pup just 3 weeks ago from a reputable breeder with GrCH and Hall of Fame dogs. Patience really is the name of the game, and I hope you're not rushing into something you don't really want. Pretty impressive that this breeder was able to place the perfect pup for you with only a single phone call.

Hope you find what you're looking for.

:wave:


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## smithfamily (Dec 17, 2012)

I know most people would disagree, but I didn't care about clearances. I kept reading about puppies having serious health problems even when they had generations of clearances. So I didn't even bother, I searched for a breeder I was comfortable with and was able to meet a couple of times. We also wanted parents with good temperaments, relatively good health, and healthy previous litters. The conditions the puppies would be raised in was also important to us (puppies kept in a home with kids rather than in a barn or kennel). We were also just looking for a pet, we were not interested in performance or breeding. As with having children, there are no guarantees. One of my sons has a life-threatening medical condition, it is genetic, yet we had no previous history in our family. Our family would have had great "clearances" had we been checked. That probably has a lot to do with my attitude towards clearances


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

I just want to commend you for doing your homework and being a responsible future puppy owner. You clearly were committed to finding a puppy who had been bred responsibly and with the future of the breed in mind and were not willing to support bad breeders and puppy mills. I really admire that and I am seriously sorry it did not work out for you!


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## Gidgetmel (Apr 8, 2013)

*Same issue*

I'm glad I stumbled upend your post Oldhiker since I live near Sac and have had the same experience. No returned messages or the pups are all sold or puppy mill/backyard breeders. It is really frustrating!

I am now widening my search for a golden to Southern California, Nevada and Oregon. If anyone has recommendations to a reputable breeder, please let me know.

And is it always this hard to find a golden? I grew up with labs and we always saw the dog before putting a deposit down. It seems strange to put a deposit on a pup that isn't even born!


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## terrychristiansohn (Jul 15, 2013)

*I found a great litter*

My sister was in the same position as you and after 7 frustrating months, she found somebody in San Rafael who has amazing puppies. They are truly exquisite, well proportioned, have light blonde coats, and are in immaculate condition. Really nice temperaments. Check out the ad in the SF ebay classifieds. On the day my sister went 4 of the 5 puppies had already been spoken for. My sister was thrilled to have one one of them and will take him home next Sunday when he turns 8 weeks old. 

As of today, I think they have one more available; we saw him, but he cost a few hundred dollars more and he is GORGEOUS!

Golden Retriever Puppies - so beautiful! Champion lineage, AKC | San Rafael | eBay Classifieds (Kijiji) | 28837164


More info for you about the experience:

The people are not a bunch of snots selling weird looking dogs of suspicious pedigree. They were nice, very knowledgeable, were concerned about the puppies going to a good home. My sister felt very comfortable, they asked about the home and lifestyle the puppy would have. No grilling, no putting my sister on the spot to feed their egos like she experienced from some of the other people offering puppies.

The part-English Cream in these puppies is from a long established line from England (not one of these bizzaro so called creams of middle European-former Soviet block descent.)

Lots of people claim their line is champion, but these people actually give names of the some of champions for people to see. There are over 500 American Champions in the pedigree, over 100 British Champions, more than 100 Canadian Champions, Show Dog Hall of Fame (SDHF), and many Field Champions.

I could go on about how happy this has made our family, but I do recommend checking out the ad before the last puppy is spoken for.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

terrychristiansohn said:


> As of today, I think they have one more available; we saw him, but he cost a few hundred dollars more and he is GORGEOUS!
> 
> Golden Retriever Puppies - so beautiful! Champion lineage, AKC | San Rafael | eBay Classifieds (Kijiji) | 28837164
> 
> ...


I really do hope your sister is very happy with her puppy.
Since you are encouraging others to check this additional puppy out as well, there are some serious red flags here.

No specific mention of clearances. Just a very odd statement of "Also, Golden Feather and Biscuit are athletic and have shown no signs whatsoever of orthopedic problems, which would have definitely shown up by 4 years of age". Dogs can have Dysplasic Hips and Elbows and not display externally visible symptoms until older and since pain threshold is very different in animals some Dysplastic dogs will not show any signs until they push themselves too hard or the disease progresses to extreme pain levels. The only way to know is to do the X-rays and get the clearences from OFFA.

Then this strange statement, "They have had their first shots and have been wormed. I'm taking precautions against parvovirus." This is bare essential care, I find it odd to be listed as a major selling point in the add.

The list of champions... Seems very impressive. The breeder obviously knows about K9data enough to ride the coat tails of the dogs back in the pedigree (a HUGE pet peeve of mine) but does not included the parents registered names so you can see for yourself. Getting a Championship is difficult, time consuming and expensive, which is why unscrupulous breeders point to "Champion Lines/Champion Lineage" to sell their less than stellar examples of the breed. Remember, for every champion, there a siblings with the same pedigree who are not good enough representatives of the breed and should never be bred. 

Now, I just checked the names of the Best in show winners because with my working knowledge of American pedigrees these looked like historic dogs common to a lot of Goldens living now including mine. The range of dates of births of these dogs are 1968-1985 with most in the 70's. It is not impressive when you have to ride on the accomplishments of dogs born 30 +/- years ago. At that point these dogs will not be in a 3 generation pedigree or maybe even a 5 generation. That means these dogs have little to no influence of the quality of the puppies. I was curious about the European dogs and not wanting to research too long focused on the three Scandinavia champions listed. The birthdates?...1960, 1947' and 1947. 

Quality in breeding dogs can and is lost within a single generation of careless breeding, that is why it is important that the puppy's parents are out there competing in some venue to be evaluated as good breeding stock. Now, I don't know this breeder, but she chose to point to the acomplishments of dog 25 years or more back in a pedigree, so it is my assumption they have done nothing with these dogs.

That brings me to price. Little to no hope of the core four clearances (OFFA Hip and Elbow at 24 months plus, Heart by a cardiologist at 12 months plus, and Eyes by OFFA or CERF yearly). No registered names to research clearances and pedigree. Parents with no accomplishments. A price difference for girls and boys (a very Back Yard Breeder practice). Not questioning potential puppy buyers, although this may feel invasive to some, "grilling" folks is how reputable breeders insure buyers a ready, equipt to handle a puppy, and will not get rid of the puppy after the cute puppy stage is over. It is about the health and safety of the puppy not about ego. 

For 1850-2000 you could do much, much, much better than this. For this price, you could get a puppy from actual champion parents with generations of health clearances behind them.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

terrychristiansohn said:


> My sister was in the same position as you and after 7 frustrating months, she found somebody in San Rafael who has amazing puppies. They are truly exquisite, well proportioned, have light blonde coats, and are in immaculate condition. Really nice temperaments. Check out the ad in the SF ebay classifieds. On the day my sister went 4 of the 5 puppies had already been spoken for. My sister was thrilled to have one one of them and will take him home next Sunday when he turns 8 weeks old.
> 
> As of today, I think they have one more available; we saw him, but he cost a few hundred dollars more and he is GORGEOUS!
> 
> ...


Wow, $1850 for backyard bred puppies. What a rip off. 

Unless the champions are parents or grandparents, those names don't mean anything. Practically ALL goldens will have champions behind them somewhere down the line but if they are even 3 or 4 generations back it does not mean much. Also, the likelihood of having a SDHF in any pedigree is very high, as those dogs have produced many offspring and unfortunately it is also likely that many of their descendants end up being bred by backyard breeders. The names don't mean anything.. Both of my dog's grand sires are SDHF, OS and I did not pay $1800 for her.. and there are health clearances for every dog for several generations behind her..

For that price you can get a pup from champion parents and grandparents and great grandparents etc .. With health clearances for at least several generations. Most importantly, you want to give that money to breeders who do it right, not those who cut corners by not proving their dogs in show or competition, don't do clearances, and wrongfully use the names of other dogs in their pedigree to justify the insane price tag, because the parents themselves cannot justify the price..


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Just because a dog has champions in their pedigree it does not make they are quality dogs. I wonder if this breeders dogs are direct descendants of these named champions or great great greatcounsins 10 times removed.

One day out of pure board I traced both Buddy and my Previous Golden, Lucky's lineage backwards and then forward of the pedigree branches. The connected to some big name golden of today. But in no away would mine have been appropriate to breed. I know Buddy came from a puppy mill type environment.


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## terrychristiansohn (Jul 15, 2013)

You people are incredibly disrespectful. And you may be simply trolling, and bury this reply with a bunch of rhetoric.

This is the first time I've posted anything on a forum; I've heard about people giving half-baked opinions, and I never imagined that my attempt to help the person who was experiencing what my sister had in her search for a golden would be the target of such rudeness. I had expected better from people who claim to love goldens.

Did you even notice that there was a lot more info in the ad so that a person could make an informed choice than in just about any other of the puppy ads in eBay.
And yes. I did my homework! The puppies are DIRECT descendants of the champions listed: I checked the pedigrees, and spent money to verify with AKC prior to our visit. My sister's puppy was less than the price of the pick of the litter puppy. It was clear that every person who was able to get puppy was required to have years of experience with goldens, and to provide them with a home that is appropriate for the needs of a golden. 

And yes, the AKC names and numbers are not in the ad. However, they were IMMEDIATELY available to us upon contact, after they made sure we were real people and not weirdos who want to backyard a dog or a gain status symbol or a surprise gift for somebody. Additionally, my sister appreciates that not publishing the info about AKC numbers widely may have provided her with some privacy.

And as for your idiotic assertion that these were "backyard breeders," they certainly were not! The puppies were kept inside and were taken out to play outside several times a day when they became old enough. The puppies were IMMACULATE; the parents were IMMACULATE. Their environment / nesting area was IMMACULATE. The parents' teeth and gums were beautiful and well maintained, no tartar or calculus. Their coats were beautiful and clean, as were their ears, eyes and nails. The sire and dam were very well trained, friendly and obviously in love with their human parents and vice versa. 

Also considering the number of people who wish to touch and handle puppies and are not entirely aware of parvovirus, their so called "obvious" statement made for a good opening conversation. My sister and I have had goldens for the last 28 years, and I appreciated my brother's daughter (my niece) being able to learn about this in an non threatening/ non egotistical way. She knew why, when she came to visit the puppies with us, that it was necessary to take precautions. Not everybody has the "grandeur" of your vastly self-important experience. My brother's daughter is of college age, and she will get experience with goldens when she stays during the next few summers with my sister. My sister will soon retire after a career of training search and rescue dogs.

And as for health clearances, I examined the lineage and verified with OFA that indeed there are good OFA certs in the line. 

As an aside, in her search for a golden, my sister's research showed that some other breeders claimed OFA excellent, and such records didn't even exit with OFA. 

The male is 7 years old, had a wonderful personality and temperament. He was robust, coordinated and strong; moves perfectly, has a beautiful gait, and we were amazed at how youthful his appearance was. And yes, I got proof of his age! And just in case you big egotists think a male of 7 years shouldn't be producing offspring, might I remind you of what you may have forgotten from basic biology: a male mammal produces brand new sperm throughout most of his post-pubescent life. As do you.

So before you get on your high horse and flame really good conscientious people, I suggest that you do your research. You strike me as being more concerned about your egos and showing dogs more than you care about there actually being a family that had a single litter upon whom they lavished the best love and care. 

And in my opinion this litter was superb. Oh, and by the way, I graduated with a double major in molecular biology and animal biology with a 3.982 grade point average. I work at a veterinary office, caring for animals. And I worked with my uncle, who trained and showed goldens throughout my teen and college years. Do you have comparable experience?

And showing is not for everybody, and it was nice that these people appreciated people who enjoy showing their dogs. Really nice to be with normal people who are respectful of others' interests.

It is truely sad when people who are charging what I saw as being a reasonable price for the puppies are maligned by by people such as yourselves. Quite frankly, after a long search, our family would have paid much more for a puppy of this nature. My sister was pleased that her salary for 6 days of work would get her a golden of this quality at this price. And this golden, given the breed's lifespan, will likely be with her for 12 to 14 years.

I find it incredible that there are people such as yourselves who are disappointed that something good actually does exist in this world. You seem like you may be both cynical and bored with life so your hobby is to go on the attack.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Hi Terry, 
I am truly sorry if you have been hurt by posts intended to shed light on some red flags this breeder posed. I encourage you to post to other area of the forum and other topics. The discussion and of course recommendations of breeders is something this forum takes seriously. 
I really do wish your family well with the new puppy and encourage you to start a thread to share the joy only golden puppies can bring. 

As far as this breeder, I still stand by the information I shared and my opinions based on that information. If you truly find fault with my post, please do not attack my intelligence and call me rude. Please share correct, verifiable information if I have anything wrong or missing.

I would love to do further research that could indead turn up achievement of the parents and of course clearances. I assume that when you saw good OFA certs in the line you would be referring to the parents having clearences?

I am not quite sure by your paragraph about back yard breeders and my understanding could be off but, the term Back Yard Breeder is not the literal raising of dogs in a back yard. It also does not have any bearing on cleanliness. If you would like a reference from a trusted source here is an article Golden Retriever puppies:Golden Retriever Club of America (GRCA)ACQUIRING A GOLDEN RETRIEVER: Choosing A Reputable Breeder by our breed club. The section on hobby breeders is were I see issues with this breeder. They may met some of these point but not all.

As far as your experience, education, and income....I do not see any relevance to the discussion. It does not change the information or lack thereof on the dogs.

This forum is made up of individuals of various levels of experience to offer. What I am really passionate about is educating the new folks and the lurkers. There are a lot of folks who come and read and never post. So, my posts are always geared toward educating those folks. eBay is usually not the best resource when researching to purchase a dog. Anyone looking for well bred puppy from cleared parents is better off working with their local breed club. As I said before, for this price a puppy buyer could do much, much, much better.

Again, I really hope you stick around an enjoy other sections of the forum.


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## keisha (Jul 16, 2013)

*Very please things worked out for you*

Glad you got a puppy you want. German shepherds are also very nice. My husband and I had the simular experience trying to get a puppy via a Golden Retriever club coordinator. Failure to respond, no puppies available at this time.


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## keisha (Jul 16, 2013)

*Congratulations to T's sister, hope it happens for my family*

I want to congratulate Terry's sister on getting a great puppy. Terry is totally correct about the issue and probably spot on about the self serving motivation behind LJacks "useful advice." Also I am offended about him labeling the litter owner to be a "backyard breeder" and his writing all that bad stuff in a very authoritative way. Seems Ljack was nasty disguised as polite. Strong words but i'm glad that somebody had the courage to tell Ljack about the harmfulness of his words.
Thank you Terry. you spoke up for what many of us "outsiders" have felt about the breeding and showing elite and how legitimate concerns have been hyped past helpfulness. People desiring puppies become parayzed with anxiety when they should actually be very cautious and also be willing wait until the right puppy is here. And waiting for years for a GRCA blessed breeder is kind of long. 
And let's be real: the breeders who conform to of GRCA's hobby breeding standards are hard to find, and when you do find one who actually replies, their puppies are so expensive. And I cannot blame them for having to cover their costs this way. GRCA has such a narrow definition of what a good hobby breeder is. Nice to shoot for, but it leaves all of us mere mortals who can give love to a dog out in the cold by cutting down the availability of "good" breeders and giving everybody else the derogatory label of "backyard breeder" 

Give me a way to contact Terry's and his sister, because I would fly to Sacramento to have one of these puppies.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

terrychristiansohn said:


> You people are incredibly disrespectful. And you may be simply trolling, and bury this reply with a bunch of rhetoric.
> 
> This is the first time I've posted anything on a forum; I've heard about people giving half-baked opinions, and I never imagined that my attempt to help the person who was experiencing what my sister had in her search for a golden would be the target of such rudeness. I had expected better from people who claim to love goldens.
> 
> ...


I didn't see the ad so I come to this topic without some of the information that was provided. I am only providing my opinion based on the information in this thread. I'm not here to stir the pot, I want you to read and understand why many of us would not recommend this breeder. 

It sounds like this breeder is better than most BYB. She screened applicants and made sure that they had dog or golden experience. They also kept the puppies and adults clean and provided them good care just as any pet owner would. 

I'm going to point out some things I noticed in your post that lead me to believe that although this breeder is likely a good person who loves her dogs, is still a BYB. This is not an attack but to shed light on the thinking of breed enthusiasts. 
-OFA clearances were found on ancestors, what about the sire and dam? Hips, elbows, heart, and eyes are the current recommendations for breeding dogs. 
-There are eye conditions in Goldens that are hereditary in nature and can cause blindness. For your own knowledge (and anyone else reading), it is recommended all goldens (pet, show, breeding and non-breeding dogs, ALL) have their eyes screened yearly. If caught early, blindness from pigmentary uveitis or other conditions can be avoided. It is imperative breeding dogs be screened before a breeding takes place. You should recommend to your breeder about these screenings for the future. There are eye clinics at local shows for about $30 or can be scheduled at a veterinary ophthalmologist. 
- This breeder claims champion lines and advertises this detail because it does mean something to most people. Champion lines tells the general public something about the quality of the dogs. However, quality is in the eye of the beholder with a litter like this. Well bred, sound dogs can be lost in just one generation/one poorly thought out breeding. 
-Can this breeder recite their pedigrees inside out & backwards? They should be able to and I hope they can. They tout champion lines, they should be able to tell you about the dogs and how long they lived and why they died. You shouldn't need to order an AKC pedigree to do this. I do not breed but have a CH male and I can recite his pedigree if given the chance. I know the cause of death to many of the dogs that have passed and about some of their faults and what traits a few tended to produce, etc. It is likely that the stud dog you own is not the best match for your bitch. (structurally, matching strengths and weaknesses) so it makes me curious about her breeding pair. 
-This breeder knows enough about showing to advertise properly and to charge accordingly. What are they doing with their large profit margin on these litters? It should be going back into the dogs in some way: clearances, showing in any venue (hunt, field, agility, obedience, conformation...) to prove their worthiness to be bred. I am not on a high horse or a "snot" for wanting dogs to be healthy, sound, and to embody exactly what a golden retriever should be. Perhaps we have different ideas as to what embodies a golden and so we will have to agree to disagree. A golden needs proper structure to hunt in the field as it was intended, it needs good structure to fetch a ball or walk a few miles into their senior years. Structure=Function. 

There is no issue with a male dog siring a litter at age 7- it happens all of the time. I know a dog who stood at stud until 12. Many dogs have frozen semen and sire litters long after they are gone from this world. 

I do agree that sometimes our good hobby breeders do price pet puppies out of reach of some very good homes. I also agree that there are some breeders that come off in an unflattering way. Hopefully those breeders are few and far between but that can leave a bad taste in one's mouth. 






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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

*Yep you got me!*



keisha said:


> I want to congratulate Terry's sister on getting a great puppy. Terry is totally correct about the issue and probably spot on about the self serving motivation behind LJacks "useful advice." Also I am offended about him labeling the litter owner to be a "backyard breeder" and his writing all that bad stuff in a very authoritative way. Seems Ljack was nasty disguised as polite. Strong words but i'm glad that somebody had the courage to tell Ljack about the harmfulness of his words.
> Thank you Terry. you spoke up for what many of us "outsiders" have felt about the breeding and showing elite and how legitimate concerns have been hyped past helpfulness. People desiring puppies become parayzed with anxiety when they should actually be very cautious and also be willing wait until the right puppy is here. And waiting for years for a GRCA blessed breeder is kind of long.
> And let's be real: the breeders who conform to of GRCA's hobby breeding standards are hard to find, and when you do find one who actually replies, their puppies are so expensive. And I cannot blame them for having to cover their costs this way. GRCA has such a narrow definition of what a good hobby breeder is. Nice to shoot for, but it leaves all of us mere mortals who can give love to a dog out in the cold by cutting down the availability of "good" breeders and giving everybody else the derogatory label of "backyard breeder"
> 
> Give me a way to contact Terry's and his sister, because I would fly to Sacramento to have one of these puppies.


You got me!
That is right I am a disrespectful, nasty, elitist, half-baked, idiotic, high horse riding, egotistical, and maligning person. 

Wow, I should ask my mother how she dare raise a person who with research and the intent of helping people find a puppy from a source that the GRCA would qualify as a serious hobby breeder would offer an opinion. This serious hobby breeder of course was what the original poster who has long since moved on to another breed was looking for. 

If you are not concerned about health clearences or choose to support a breeder who is not doing everything they could to provide you with the best chances for a healthy puppy, that is your choice to make and nothing a faceless voice on the Internet will change that.

I do believe that everyone has the right to make an informed decision, which is why I posted to the thread...if anyone can provide verifiable information that I have something wrong or missing I would be happy to change my understanding which could lead to a revision of my opinion. If not, my opinion remains the same. A puppy buyer could do much, much, much better for the same amount of money. 

For people that can not find the right breeder, do not want to wait or do not want to pay the price for a well bred puppy you have a lot of options out there. I would recommend rescue. I am however a realist and people will buy from back yard breeders for many reasons. There are many, many members on the forum who have. I have a BYB Min Pin who does not even have papers. He is an absolutely wonderful dog. So are everyone's BYB dogs (Goldens and others). I always support the dogs even if I would never support or recommend that breeder.

I would ask that this thread try to refrain from emotional posts. The level of name calling apparently directed at me is concerning. If you disagree with my view or a statement I have made, please feel free to let me know. I would request that you do so with courtesy. It is very tiresome to be called names and have my character attacked. You can disagree with me yet still respect that I am a person though you can not see my face.

P.S. since you can not see me. I am a lady


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

terrychristiansohn said:


> You people are incredibly disrespectful. And you may be simply trolling, and bury this reply with a bunch of rhetoric.


Actually the people who have responded are well respected members of the forum. They are also heavily involved in the Golden world in real life--not just internet poseurs.



> This is the first time I've posted anything on a forum; I've heard about people giving half-baked opinions, and I never imagined that my attempt to help the person who was experiencing what my sister had in her search for a golden would be the target of such rudeness. I had expected better from people who claim to love goldens.


Everybody is entitled to an opinion, including yourself. Your entire post is laced with vitriol--and you claim to have loved Goldens for 28 years. As to being "half-baked" as you would suggest, the post that seems to have upset you the most is clearly stated and includes factual information from the pedigree in question. Unfortunately your rebuttal doesn't contain _any_ independently verifiable information. We're left to accept your opinion to be "fully-baked" at face value.



> Did you even notice that there was a lot more info in the ad so that a person could make an informed choice than in just about any other of the puppy ads in eBay.


It seems the ad has been pulled so I can't comment directly as to the content. However, the simple fact that this breeder had to post an ad at all doesn't speak well for their breeding program. As your sister (apparently) and the original poster of this thread found out, appropriately bred animals are in high demand. They often entail waiting lists, and often puppies are spoken for before they are born. All this without the need for advertisement of any kind--word of mouth and reputation speak for themselves.



> And yes. I did my homework! The puppies are DIRECT descendants of the champions listed: I checked the pedigrees, and spent money to verify with AKC prior to our visit. My sister's puppy was less than the price of the pick of the litter puppy. It was clear that every person who was able to get puppy was required to have years of experience with goldens, and to provide them with a home that is appropriate for the needs of a golden.


You do realize that the vast majority of Goldens today are DIRECT descendents of just 4 dogs...right? You've missed the point entirely. The point is that the champion dogs being touted as the foundation of this litter are buried so far back in the pedigree that they may, or may not exert influence on the litter at hand. As has been pointed out multiple times already, it only takes a single ill-advised breeding to utterly destroy the temperament and structure of a bloodline. For these particular champions to be a true selling point for this litter, these dogs would have to have been so tightly line bred for so many generations that health issues would be a _serious_ concern. The question remains--and it's a _big _question--what have the _parents_ of the litter accomplished?



> And yes, the AKC names and numbers are not in the ad. However, they were IMMEDIATELY available to us upon contact, after they made sure we were real people and not weirdos who want to backyard a dog or a gain status symbol or a surprise gift for somebody. Additionally, my sister appreciates that not publishing the info about AKC numbers widely may have provided her with some privacy.


 What privacy concerns? You realize that AKC information is published...publicly...right? It's kind of the point of having a registry. That information is vital for a buyer to make an informed choice. It's all well and good that they IMMEDIATELY provided those names and numbers, but frankly I wouldn't even inquire about a litter unless I knew what bloodlines the litter featured. It's like posting an ad for a vehicle and providing the make but not the model. 

For sale: Ford. Ancestors are racing champions. 

Umm...is it a Ford minivan? Or a F350 diesel pick-up? Or a commuter car? I wouldn't even bother to reply. Are puppies from field lines? Are they from conformation lines? Are they SUV puppies or sports car puppies?



> And as for your idiotic assertion that these were "backyard breeders," they certainly were not! The puppies were kept inside and were taken out to play outside several times a day when they became old enough. The puppies were IMMACULATE; the parents were IMMACULATE. Their environment / nesting area was IMMACULATE. The parents' teeth and gums were beautiful and well maintained, no tartar or calculus. Their coats were beautiful and clean, as were their ears, eyes and nails. The sire and dam were very well trained, friendly and obviously in love with their human parents and vice versa.


 Terry, it wasn't an idiotic assumption. It was an assertion that was well supported with facts. And your use of the term "idiotic" here is dangerously close to violating the code of conduct for this board.

I'm glad the dogs in question were clean and in apparent good health. Hopefully in addition to that they have good hips, elbows, hearts, eyes, temperament, and drive that your sister was looking for... 



> Also considering the number of people who wish to touch and handle puppies and are not entirely aware of parvovirus, their so called "obvious" statement made for a good opening conversation. My sister and I have had goldens for the last 28 years, and I appreciated my brother's daughter (my niece) being able to learn about this in an non threatening/ non egotistical way. She knew why, when she came to visit the puppies with us, that it was necessary to take precautions. Not everybody has the "grandeur" of your vastly self-important experience. My brother's daughter is of college age, and she will get experience with goldens when she stays during the next few summers with my sister. My sister will soon retire after a career of training search and rescue dogs.


For a truly discerning breeder, there are so many steps between the initial contact and potential owners actually meeting a litter, that bringing up parvo at all in the ad seems completely out of place. My immediate thought after reading that ad is that they have had issues with parvo in previous litters. It's a question I would be asking at the outset. When my family went to meet our puppy (and only owners of puppies in the litter ever met the litter to minimize contact) we received very specific instructions on how to help prevent the spread of potentially harmful pathogens.

And why would your sister with a career in training search and rescue dogs need to answer an eBay ad to find a dog?! That makes absolutely no sense at all to me. Surely after a _career_ of training dogs she would have made some industry contacts...right?



> And as for health clearances, I examined the lineage and verified with OFA that indeed there are good OFA certs in the line.
> 
> As an aside, in her search for a golden, my sister's research showed that some other breeders claimed OFA excellent, and such records didn't even exit with OFA.


Good on you on doing some research. But what about the _parents_ of the litter? Sure the lineage is important, but what about the _parents?_ Do they have hips and elbows certified by the OFA? Do they CERFs for their eyes within the last 12 months? Do they have a cardiac clearance from a cardiologist? Those clearances are the minimum standard recommend by the national breed club. And it is the buyer's onus to verify all clearances, either by paper copy from the breeder, or by the OFA database using the AKC name or number. (Oh yeah, that!)



> The male is 7 years old, had a wonderful personality and temperament. He was robust, coordinated and strong; moves perfectly, has a beautiful gait, and we were amazed at how youthful his appearance was. And yes, I got proof of his age! And just in case you big egotists think a male of 7 years shouldn't be producing offspring, might I remind you of what you may have forgotten from basic biology: a male mammal produces brand new sperm throughout most of his post-pubescent life. As do you.


 Good heavens! I hope he still was active and happy at 7 if he's being bred. Hopefully he lives a good long life too!



> So before you get on your high horse and flame really good conscientious people, I suggest that you do your research. You strike me as being more concerned about your egos and showing dogs more than you care about there actually being a family that had a single litter upon whom they lavished the best love and care.
> 
> And in my opinion this litter was superb. Oh, and by the way, I graduated with a double major in molecular biology and animal biology with a 3.982 grade point average. I work at a veterinary office, caring for animals. And I worked with my uncle, who trained and showed goldens throughout my teen and college years. Do you have comparable experience?


Hmm, I have 4 degrees, 3 Bachelor's of Science and a clinical doctorate. I too graduated _summa cum laude_. Yay. We're both smart.

There are numerous breeders that post on this board with _years_ of experience who readily share their knowledge with those that are open to learning. Those that think a biology degree, working in a vet office, and a few years assisting with someone else's breeding program affords them the pinnacle of Golden knowledge may find this place less friendly. 



> And showing is not for everybody, and it was nice that these people appreciated people who enjoy showing their dogs. Really nice to be with normal people who are respectful of others' interests.
> 
> It is truely sad when people who are charging what I saw as being a reasonable price for the puppies are maligned by by people such as yourselves. Quite frankly, after a long search, our family would have paid much more for a puppy of this nature. My sister was pleased that her salary for 6 days of work would get her a golden of this quality at this price. And this golden, given the breed's lifespan, will likely be with her for 12 to 14 years.
> 
> I find it incredible that there are people such as yourselves who are disappointed that something good actually does exist in this world. You seem like you may be both cynical and bored with life so your hobby is to go on the attack.


I hope this puppy is with her for 12-14 years too. But does this pedigree breed longevity? What did other dogs in the line die of? And at what age? Did you research that? Does the breeder know? If you can Google the lifespan of the breed, or your experience caring for animals in a vet office, you would know that this breed is susceptible to various types of cancer among other health issues. What about in this pedigree?

The people on this board aren't bored (tee hee) they care enough to ask the hard questions. You just weren't prepared to answer the hard questions.

Hope you stick around and read and post more. You'll learn that all the snap judgements you've made on a single thread about an entire community may be a tad bit skewed. We always welcome those that love the breed. We'd love to have your input, and maybe--just maybe--you can find some knowledge to take away too.

:wavey:


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

This thread has run its course, I am closing it.


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