# Question about new puppy, showing and breeding



## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I will leave for some one more experienced in this area.

I do want to wish you good luck with your pup.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

It seems a little sketchy to me, because its pretty unlikely that 6 out of 7 puppies in the litter are going to be top show prospects. I know the litter I got my boy from, there were 8 puppies and 5 achieved their Canadian champions (although a 6th one was on her way before passing of GDV). But that is a Canadian champion, much different than an American champion, where a significant investment is required for any dog to achieve a champion. Do you mind sharing the pedigree? I would recommend getting everything in writing, as well as if they really want it as a show dog, I would want him to finish his champion before they breed him...Also if you agree to this, expect to have you boy away for months on end. (if the breeder sends their dogs out to handlers).


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## Riley's Mom (Jul 6, 2008)

There are a couple of "red flags" here with the situation. So this guy isn't the actual breeder so that makes him a "broker". Did he buy the puppy from his friend and resell him to you? Reputable breeders don't do that. Also I find it a little strange that 5 out of 7 puppies were sold as show dogs. Usually you get 1 or 2 really nice show quality puppies from a litter, I guess depending on the pedigree you could get more. Also selecting a puppy on color alone is not a good decision. Most breeders select the right puppy for a family based on what type of puppy the family is looking for. For instance a more laid back type or a high energy type to compete with etc. Color should be the last thing looked at. 
Once you have the puppy in your possession the guy really can't tell you what to do with the puppy as long as the contract you originally signed doesn't change. Possession is 9/10ths of the law 
Don't let this guy pressure you into something that you don't want or understand.


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## Codie's mom (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks for the quick replies! So, yes, I guess this guy is a broker. He picked the puppy for us based upon coat color because he had the puppies for maybe an hour before we showed up. Thankfully, he is the calmer one of the two, now that we have spent time there. He did say for the showing, that we would bring our dog to him on like a Thursday, and he'd groom him and prep him for a Sat or Sun show, the he'd come home. I can't remember the pups mom's name, but the dad is Ryder from Confetti. The mom's call name is Easy. 
I don't want my dog gone for months... 
Thanks for giving me info on this, as I wasn't planning on having a show dog and never researched it.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

There is a breeder near me who changes the agreement at the last minute....decides a pup is show quality to drive the price up. What good golden breeder would allow their dog to be sold thru a broker. And if the pup is eight weeks, it should be with you .... a lot of this seems sketchy to me. As for showing, it is very expensive in the AKC world. I would never ask someone to do it unless it was all decided beforehand.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I am not sure which Easy is the mother, but the father is very well known! If it is something you would be interested in, go for it. A young puppy can show lots of promise, but Goldens are one of the toughest breeds to finish in the US. A lovely young puppy just may not make it as an adult so it may never come to pass.

It sounds like almost a ring side pick up, so your boy would not be gone for months at a time, Maybe a week or so at the most, maybe just a day or two.

If you do decide to try it, you need to clearly understand all the costs associated with this-grooming, handling, transportation, room and board. Is he willing to do all of this in exchange for breeding rights? Would he want his name on the puppy as a co-owner? Is he agreeable that your boy would not be bred before two and getting all of his clearances, and ensuring that the girls he is bred to, have the same?

Just some things to think about. I do enjoy showing, and seeing my guys in the ring is always a big thrill. Most of my friends came through my involvement in dogs 

If you do this, you need to understand the expectations for coat care, weight and grooming. This is where I always ran into trouble when showing a family pet. It has been done though-Ch. Twin Beau D's High Speed Chase was purchased as a pet by a policeman. When he was 18 months old, he went back to his breeder for boarding. He was gorgeous, she asked to show him and his owner agreed. Chase had a wonderful career and made quite an impression in the Golden world


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## Codie's mom (Nov 12, 2011)

What things should I ask when I go to pick up my puppy? What should I have the broker put in writing? again, I know nothing about this stuff, even the most basic questions will be helpful to me. I just dont want to get myself into something I'm not ready for. I also dont want to get screwed or lose this puppy.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

What kind of contract do you have with the breeder? That would be separate from any agreement you would have with the handler/trainer. If the puppy is being sold on a Limited Registration, the breeder would have to lift that before the pup could be shown. Have you spoken to the breeder about this? How experienced is this breeder and how experienced is the handler?

You could just tell him you are interested but need more details before you decide. What about show training-when and who would be responsible? What would the fees be for showing, grooming, training, other expenses? Who is expected to pay show entries (NOT cheap)-I would expect that would be you.

What involvement does he expect to have with the puppy on a regular basis?

If the agreement is just going to be regarding showing, you don't have to worry about that for awhile. Some shows have the baby puppy classes, but most don't, so the earliest he could be shown would be 6 months. If you are still interested, and he is still interested, you can nail things down then (this is assuming your contract is with the breeder and this person is in no way involved with your purchase).

Bottom line is-you don't HAVE to do this with your puppy. And even if you decide it might be fun, it may not work out. Take your time-ask the trainer if you can go to some shows and watch him, and get an idea of what is involved before you make a decision.

I love dog shows and showing, but it is not for everybody. It is expensive, and can be frustrating too


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## Codie's mom (Nov 12, 2011)

Thank you Tahnee! He did mention lifting the limited registration, but again, I need to learn more about what that means. He also mentioned training when we board the dog there (and really, I'm not sure if we would need to board our dog anytime soon - just one vacation planned in August next year). 
Being hat this is a family pet, I don't want this to be a full time thing. I was thinking that if he wanted to "borrow" our dog for a weekend every once I awhile to show him, I'd be okay with that. I don't want to pay extra for all that showing stuff... Would it be weird to ask him to pay for it? Although I suppose if he were to pay for all that showing stuff, he'd probably want more control over the dog, and how much time the dog would spend away from home. 
I'm starting to think this is not for us... 
I wonder how he'll react when I say no thanks. I've already bonded to this little guy, and he'll have been there for two weeks of training that we've paid for already. Never mind that our contract is for him- not his brother.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

There are so so may red flags. Just like the others have mentioned. I as a reputable show breeder would never have someone else home my puppies, in fact most of my puppies are spoken for long before a breeding takes please. I would love to see the pedigree on the puppy, that can tell you a lot. This guy is more than likely blowing smoke and wants to use your boy at stud for no cost in the future. 

Question.... Have you seen all of the recommend Tests for our breed set forth by GRCA if not I would run as far and and fast as I could to a reputable breeder. Just sayen sound funny to me.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I actually think I know what litter this is and the person who I think is involved is not a puppy broker. The dam is EZ (Smuggler x Leo) and the sire is Ryder, I was told they bred her to Ryder so this makes sense timing wise. She's a very lovely girl, is finished and was line-bred on Hobo, so I have no doubt that these puppies could be beautiful. 

I would just make sure the breeder is on board with you showing this puppy, I'm sure he would speak to them, but ultimately it's the breeder's decision to make if the dog has full or limited registration, so I would speak directly to the Nobles about it if I were you.


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## Codie's mom (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes, Goldenjack, Codie is one of those puppies. I'm so happy you wrote in, because I never got a feeling that this was a scetchy deal, I just needed more info on what they are asking us to do. I don't know anything about this showing idea, so I just want as much info on all this before I go to pick him up on Sunday so I can ask all the right questions. I guess now my main concern would the costs of all this, and how much time he'd be away from home. Just need to explain to the kids why Codie would be leaving every once in awhile. I'll make sure to ask the trainer about the breeder's thought on all this too. 
Thanks!


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I think it depends on you and what YOU want. Don't be strong armed into showing the dog if you are not interested. There are several other puppies in the litter being shown-- chances are if there is another male being shown in the area, there will also be competition for stud services with two dogs with the exact same pedigree. 

Having a show dog means nightly brushings, weekly or bi-weekly nail trimmings, weekly bathing and blow drying, etc. You need to keep the dog in good physical shape and in coat. This more likely than not, would be your responsibility as it would be an inconvenience to the handler/breeder to come and do these things for you. You also need to be aware that a conformation dog is intact, can you deal with an intact male? In adolescence, they can be a challenge! If you agree to let the dog be shown, who pays entry fees? Who pays travel expenses? Who gets the stud fees if he is bred in the future? Who determines to which bitches he is bred? Do you get a say if you object to the breeding? What if the dog doesn't pass any of his clearances? Who pays for the clearances to be done? Will you own him or co-own him? What are the terms of the agreement? When do you get full ownership; only if he doesn't finish? Lots to think about!


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## Codie's mom (Nov 12, 2011)

Thank you Carolina. That was very helpful! It's looking more and more like this isn't for me. 
Can anyone reccomend a good web site on the whole business of show dogs so I can get myself more familiar?


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I like the book "Show Me" which breaks down the show process but it's geared more toward an owner-handler. 

You may find this helpful...

American Kennel Club - A Beginner's Guide to Dog Shows


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## Bella's Mama (Jun 12, 2011)

I am way too selfish to be able to share my dog with someone else, even if they have good intentions. I couldn't imagine my Bella spending that much time with someone else and then having them take her from me, even only for short periods of time.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

That would be a fabulous litter! I am jealous :-( Hehe! Showing takes a lot of hard work!! Just trying to give u a quote on price as it can very. My bitch was out for 3 weekends (10) shows and my cost was $ 1400. If u do ring side pick up, it would not be as much. But, I would just talk to the breeder. Also, can u possibly find someone to evaluate this puppy. Another view?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

kfayard said:


> That would be a fabulous litter! I am jealous :-( Hehe! Showing takes a lot of hard work!! Just trying to give u a quote on price as it can very. My bitch was out for 3 weekends (10) shows and my cost was $ 1400. If u do ring side pick up, it would not be as much. But, I would just talk to the breeder. Also, can u possibly find someone to evaluate this puppy. Another view?


I wish I was qualified to evaluate puppies because this puppy is like 10 minutes from me right now! lol. 

And yes, showing is expensive. And sometimes frustrating. And sometimes awesome. You really have to love it to do it (which I do  ) Personally, I would be very careful letting someone show my dog for free no matter who it is...it can get very messy and complicated. I've only been doing this a short time and I've heard of a number of co-owns/relationships gone awry when things were done for "free."


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## Codie's mom (Nov 12, 2011)

Golden jack, since you are nearby, are there any dog "playgroups" that you know of around here? I'm actually in Rancho PQ, but I want my puppy to be able to play with other dogs. I'm going to assume these paid for playgroups are okay for puppy's as long as they have been vaccinated... Or maybe any other fun things around here to do with my puppy? 
Thanks again for all of everyone's help!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Codie's mom said:


> Golden jack, since you are nearby, are there any dog "playgroups" that you know of around here? I'm actually in Rancho PQ, but I want my puppy to be able to play with other dogs. I'm going to assume these paid for playgroups are okay for puppy's as long as they have been vaccinated... Or maybe any other fun things around here to do with my puppy?
> Thanks again for all of everyone's help!


Hidden Valley Obedience Club does a puppy kindergarten that is really good. They're in Escondido. I may be doing a class if we end up with a new pup in a few weeks (they still need to be evaluated). If not and we do end up with a new puppy we could do playdates since they'll be pretty close in age!  Feel free to private message me or I can send you my email address.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Codie's mom said:


> Thanks for the quick replies! So, yes, I guess this guy is a broker. He picked the puppy for us based upon coat color because he had the puppies for maybe an hour before we showed up. Thankfully, he is the calmer one of the two, now that we have spent time there. He did say for the showing, that we would bring our dog to him on like a Thursday, and he'd groom him and prep him for a Sat or Sun show, the he'd come home. I can't remember the pups mom's name, but the dad is Ryder from Confetti. The mom's call name is Easy.
> I don't want my dog gone for months...
> Thanks for giving me info on this, as I wasn't planning on having a show dog and never researched it.


I have no clue what is going on here, but I would be absolutely shocked if a Ryder puppy was in bad hands- truly. I think you probably do have a very nice puppy there. Confetti guards their show puppies, and all their puppies VERY carefully, and I think they would be beyond upset and would take some strong legal action if ever a puppy made it to broker hands. 

I believe, as a leap of faith, that if you have a Ryder puppy, it is on the up and up. However, showing a dog is a LOT of work on coat and picking judges, and expensive too! I have a Ryder son who I adore. I sent him out just a bit as a puppy to get experience in the ring and a few single points. Now, he will go out again when only he is in full, full coat and all grown up with Beth Johnson. I expect that this will end up costing about 5,000 ish. The hardest part is having him away sometimes. I am not good enough to show him myself, so I have to let him be away for two weeks here and there.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I expect that this will end up costing about 5,000 ish.


Why does it cost that much? Or I guess I should ask that if the breeder is going to be handling and grooming the dog, that's going to knock off some of the cost, right? 

My concern yesterday was over what sounded like a fishy situation from somebody who sounded pretty inexperienced. They sold you a dog and then decided that they liked your dog better than the one they picked? 

But since these are definitely experienced and legitimate people here, I'd definitely go with it. Make sure the breeder is clear about the rules and ask for advice. I think a lot of breeders don't like co-owning show dogs with people or are pretty selective about who they co-own with simply because the dogs are not kept in shape or the coat gets messed up. The fact they are offering this arrangement to you is pretty 
nice. It also means the breeder(s) will be sticking around and helping you out with your puppy - which again is pretty nice.

I haven't seen pics of the mom, but I really like the dad (Ryder).


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I just do not know anything about this situation, except that the owners of Ryder are very careful with his puppies. 

Lol, it wouldnt cost so much if I had been smarter. However, I just wanted to get him out as a puppy, even if he wasnt in good coat or mature yet bc I wanted to learn about the culture. If I had waited until next year, it would be much less expensive. Showing when the dog is ready to win is the best way to do it. My neighbors have a golden who cost literally 30,000 to finish. His very first show, he went WD/BOW from the 6-9 puppy class with a big name handler, but then did not win again for more than a year. There are so many variables! For example, even if you have an excellent handler and an excellent dog, he/she may choose judging panels by what is best for his/her Special rather than for your dog. Or, if you have a puppy, the handler is likely to give your pup to an assistant or fellow handler if any of his/her other dogs win when it comes to going back in for the actual points. In time, you learn what judges are promising for your particular dog, you build up seniority with the handler, you might learn to groom and handle your own dog yourself etc, but it takes a while. If your dog is not Specials quality, it simply will not win every time or even most of the time. All of this costs a ton of extra money. I can't even imagine if someone showed my Ryder puppy at no cost to me- woooo hoo that would be heaven.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Agree with Jill. I sent remi out at right before her 2 year birthday because she Was ready. She might get WB one day and the next not even place. It all depends on the judge and what he/she THINKS represents the best picture to them. I do not send her out when she is not looking her best. Good luck and I am sure u have a beautiful pup. Post pics when u get them


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

kfayard said:


> If u do ring side pick up, it would not be as much. But,


The BUT is that you would have to learn how to groom your dog or hire someone to do it for you, which defeats the reason to do a ring side pick up.

I Co-Own some of my dogs with several people this cuts down the cast as you split it evenly amongst the owners. There are pros and cons about co-ownerships and should always have very clear contracts with them. 

Showing is fun and in some ways addictive lol. You can have the best weekend of your life one week and in the dumps the next it is a fun and exiting roller-coaster Ride that for sure.

What ever you decide to do make it fun for you and your kids. 4H is a great thing to do with your dog. That is how I got my start in this crazy wonderful life with my dogs. I could not imagine not showing or working with them. 

Good luck


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Again, I'll just say again that if the puppy is with the person who I think it is, this person is also a golden breeder and handles dogs. I don't think there's anything fishy and the breeder of these puppies is very particular on where the puppies go.

I'll just contribute my experience with showing....it's a very expensive undertaking. $5,000 for a championship would be on the low end, IMO, if a dog is living with a handler. I ran the numbers recently and with boarding, showing and expenses it will run about $1,000-2,000 per month to have your dog out with a handler depending on how many shows they enter and how far they're traveling to the shows. A 5 day circuit of shows in NorCal for my boy recently ran about $700 including handling and expenses. And we came home with no major! lol So, like I said, not cheap.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

The handler we tried for a few months with the youngsters, Diana Mason, charges more for ringside. Lol,she is such a fantastic groomer, it would be crazy to groom him myself and then have her show.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Again, I'll just say again that if the puppy is with the person who I think it is, this person is also a golden breeder and handles dogs. I don't think there's anything fishy and the breeder of these puppies is very particular on where the puppies go.
> 
> I'll just contribute my experience with showing....it's a very expensive undertaking. $5,000 for a championship would be on the low end, IMO, if a dog is living with a handler. I ran the numbers recently and with boarding, showing and expenses it will run about $1,000-2,000 per month to have your dog out with a handler depending on how many shows they enter and how far they're traveling to the shows. A 5 day circuit of shows in NorCal for my boy recently ran about $700 including handling and expenses. And we came home with no major! lol So, like I said, not cheap.


That is exactly the problem. It is a lot like playing the Majors Lottery. I agree that 10, 000 is probably likely, with some variation for if you have a winning streak or a drought. In my case, I brought Copley home now for 6 months bc his coat had been stripped out, he blew the rest of it, and chewed his pants. He actually still went WD/BOS like that, but I bet I could add 5,000 to the cost of showing him by putting him out with big ****** in his pantaloons. No thanks.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> That is exactly the problem. It is a lot like playing the Majors Lottery. I agree that 10, 000 is probably likely, with some variation for if you have a winning streak or a drought. In my case, I brought Copley home now for 6 months bc his coat had been stripped out, he blew the rest of it, and chewed his pants. He actually still went WD/BOS like that, but I bet I could add 5,000 to the cost of showing him by putting him out with big ****** in his pantaloons. No thanks.


I totally agree. If I had to do it over again I would have shown Jack selectively as a puppy and not entered him regularly until he turned 18 months. He did very well in the puppy classes but only won 1 point from them and was the king of Reserves there for a few months. Once he hit open he picked up the remaining 8 points very quickly. So now we're entering all the majors since he's singled out. You can't win if you don't enter, but hopefully he'll pick up one or both of his majors at the next few shows. A well respected breeder gave me some good advice at the NorCal shows, she said "you know he is worthy of earning his championship, so now you just have to show him until it happens. And it will happen, you just need to be patient." I thought that was pretty good advice.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Best of luck to Jack finding his majors soon! I agree that at first it is exciting having the puppy out. I was so proud that Copley won a Specialty Major Reserve his first time out. BUT, the fun of reserves has long faded as it means another 800 dollar weekend ahead rather than behind.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> Best of luck to Jack finding his majors soon! I agree that at first it is exciting having the puppy out. I was so proud that Copley won a Specialty Major Reserve his first time out. BUT, the fun of reserves has long faded as it means another 800 dollar weekend ahead rather than behind.


Thanks! I'm sure both of our boys will do well in the coming months  I agree though, I see reserve ribbons as just money down the drain now. When jack won his first reserve at a major you would have thought he won an Academy Award I was so happy...lol.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> Best of luck to Jack finding his majors soon! I agree that at first it is exciting having the puppy out. I was so proud that Copley won a Specialty Major Reserve his first time out. BUT, the fun of reserves has long faded as it means another 800 dollar weekend ahead rather than behind.


 
I have entered Remi in every show recently in Florida or wherever my handler was going....have wasted I think 4 to 5 weekends of money because it did not make majors  But, this weekend there are finally majors...and of COURSE she has started to blow coat!! :bowl: So, I will be picking her up regardless this weekend!!


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Oh yes, the joy of reserves. It's better than a 1 ribbon kind of day... but still!  Gibbs had 3 reserves out of his last 4 shows in back to back weekends. We're on the hunt for points-- any points!  Pleeeeeeease!

I think this smiley is appropriate....So frustrating and yet so exciting in the high moments. 
:banghead:


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

CarolinaCasey said:


> Oh yes, the joy of reserves. It's better than a 1 ribbon kind of day... but still!  Gibbs had 3 reserves out of his last 4 shows in back to back weekends. We're on the hunt for points-- any points!  Pleeeeeeease!
> 
> I think this smiley is appropriate....So frustrating and yet so exciting in the high moments.
> :banghead:


 
Gibbs' time is VERY close. You have done a wonderful job with him and come so far in the last few months. It is a lot harder being an owner/handler but I also think it is a lot more rewarding when you beat all the pro's, too.

I hope I am there to see it all when Gibbs does get his first points!!!  Then you will soon be complaining about looking for majors like the rest of us!! lol


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> I just do not know anything about this situation, except that the owners of Ryder are very careful with his puppies.
> 
> Lol, it wouldnt cost so much if I had been smarter. However, I just wanted to get him out as a puppy, even if he wasnt in good coat or mature yet bc I wanted to learn about the culture. If I had waited until next year, it would be much less expensive. Showing when the dog is ready to win is the best way to do it. My neighbors have a golden who cost literally 30,000 to finish. His very first show, he went WD/BOW from the 6-9 puppy class with a big name handler, but then did not win again for more than a year. There are so many variables! For example, even if you have an excellent handler and an excellent dog, he/she may choose judging panels by what is best for his/her Special rather than for your dog. Or, if you have a puppy, the handler is likely to give your pup to an assistant or fellow handler if any of his/her other dogs win when it comes to going back in for the actual points. In time, you learn what judges are promising for your particular dog, you build up seniority with the handler, you might learn to groom and handle your own dog yourself etc, but it takes a while. If your dog is not Specials quality, it simply will not win every time or even most of the time. All of this costs a ton of extra money. I can't even imagine if someone showed my Ryder puppy at no cost to me- woooo hoo that would be heaven.


 
$5000 is pretty cheap for a championship when you have entries and expenses and handling fees. It can easily be upwards of $500-800 for one show circuit and if your dog win's once during the circuit, you are doing good.

I guess you may soon be entering heaven but not with the Ryder puppy! 

I do also agree with Lilly that the Schlect's are rather particular about who Ryder is bred to and stay in contact with everyone who breed's to them as they have an honest interest in all his puppies.


Jennifer
Harborview


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Lol, Jenn, it is going to be so much fun for you to show Lushie- definitely heaven! I am so appreciative of her opportunity, and to have you as her breeder helping us.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

kfayard said:


> I have entered Remi in every show recently in Florida or wherever my handler was going....have wasted I think 4 to 5 weekends of money because it did not make majors  But, this weekend there are finally majors...and of COURSE she has started to blow coat!! :bowl: So, I will be picking her up regardless this weekend!!


Lol, that is so sad, and it is what you don't figure in at first when you are speculating about show expenses as a novice- the times you have to pay your entery fees & even your handler, but the dog can't go for one reason or another or is singled out. . .

Copley is just benched until his whole ruff grows out where he pulled a burr out with his teeth at field training, and his feathers/pantaloons grow out from when he chewed them 6 months ago bc I left heavy conditioner in and he hated it. Grrrrr. It is frustrating! But it is less frustrating than trying to show him like that and having our handler be ballisitic about it, lol.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

CarolinaCasey said:


> Oh yes, the joy of reserves. It's better than a 1 ribbon kind of day... but still!  Gibbs had 3 reserves out of his last 4 shows in back to back weekends. We're on the hunt for points-- any points!  Pleeeeeeease!
> 
> I think this smiley is appropriate....So frustrating and yet so exciting in the high moments.
> :banghead:


Cheers to Gibbs- I do know now from experience that those reserves in a row are like knocking on the door, and it will open for you soon.


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