# Timber Trails MA



## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

Neither parent is 2 years old yet, no hip or elbow clearances. They both have current eye exams and cardiologist heart exams on the OFA site. 

"Dam and Sire are both Titled in AKC Rally obedience." So? They both have rally novice titles. Not really a claim to fame. I have put these titles on 9 month old puppies and dogs with very little obedience training. Not exactly a selling feature.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

You should read up on clearances, breeding early, etc. This pairing is from two underaged animals, and there's no reason to breed the two of them except to save a stud fee (I base this on looking at their pedigrees on k9data.com). The bitch's name is just Talayeh on k9data. I agree on the Rally novice titles- they are better than nothing, but do not tell the breeder of correct conformation or temperament. It's a few weeks' training and entry fees. 
I'd feel better about this breeder if there were an announcement of an accidental breeding, rather than deliberately breeding underaged animals.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

The AKC market place is open to all breeders and litters that are register able through the AKC. That mean s you will find all kinds of breeders there, Reputable Breeders, Back Yard Breeders (BYB) and Comercial breeders who make their living off of breeding dogs. In general you will find a disproportionate amount of BYB and comercial kennels on. Market place because they have so many puppies to sell and thier style of breeding does not generally mean they have people waiting for thier puppies because they lack health testing certifications and much more. On the other hand reputable breeders generally have waiting lists for thier puppies before they are born or maybe even before the breeding takes place. I do maintain a page there and wish more reputable breeders di because so many families looking don't know about the difference. I use mine as a contact point to educats people who are shopping for puppies. Though, in my last litter I did have a boy become available unexpectedly at the very end and was able to list just one puppy for sale on the market place. 

Please do educate yourself on health certifications. I also recommend adding a healthy dose of skepticism when anyone claims they have them. It is very common for breeders of poor quality animals and even poorer ethics to claim they have them when they don't and prey on buyer's trust. 

To that end, in the market place you do get a leg up since the adds require the parents registered names and numbers to be posted. Before contacting them, take those names to Orthopedic Foundation for Animals and type them in. I have given an example below of what it should look like if the dogs really do have full health certifications. OFA is a public verification database. It is a trusted source because OFA is the only entity that can make the entries, though anyone can use it to verify. On any other database in the U.S. Golden breeders use, the entry can be made by anyone and enter is could be falsified.

Here is what full health certification on a parent dog should look like.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

For comparison I will post my other girl who is just a pet because she failed her elbow certification. 
She is also an example of an expired eye exam. 

If a breeder is claiming eyes and heart are done but not sent in, after your very hips and elbows are on OFA, ask to have them send you copies of the exam report. Since the specialist that performs the eyes and heart make a determination as to if they are normal at the time of the exam some folks fell they don't have to pay the less than $20 to list them on OFA. I personally think that is kind of lazy and lousy but does not mean the puppy's parent exams are not available. 

I by the way used Athol, MA as a location and none of the Market Place breeders within 100 miles has anywhere near the full health certifications. I would recommend reaching out the local or national Golden Retriever clubs to see about referrals in your area. 

https://www.grca.org/find-a-golden/
Yankee Golden Retriever Club


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I know most breeders in MA, and have never heard of this one. MA has soooooo many excellent breeders there is no need to take any chances.


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## Goldenfriend57 (Sep 17, 2016)

*Timber Trails*

I know of Timber Trails and it is a very reputable breeder. She stands behind all her pups and is very open about all paper work. She has beautiful pups. I have talked to other breeders and they are not very nice. Timber Trails is a pleasure to visit whether you buy a pup or not.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Always interesting when someone joins and makes their first post on a thread about a breeder who has not met the criteria of the GRCA CoE which most of use as the bare minimum of earning the description of reputable breeder. 

It always seems like reputation damage control and is sometimes even done by the breeder themselves surreptitiously as the forum does not require identity disclosure. 

Goldenfriend I hope you will stick around an enjoy other areas of our forum, we have much to offer. 

Certainly, feeling comfortable with a breeder is one piece of the selection puzzle. But, since health is so important and impacts any puppy for life, it is critical to know what testing should be done. If it is not being done, buyers should understand what that extra risk means to their family. You may want to read up on the GRCA CoE to see what a reputable breeder in the US should be offering above being nice and having beautiful puppies. 
https://www.grca.org/about-the-breed/grca-code-of-ethics/
I have also compiled a visual aid for the health component I will attach since that is what was discussed earlier in the thread.


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

It is extremely difficult to consider someone a "reputable breeder" when they breed underage dogs that do not have their clearances.


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## Goldenfriend57 (Sep 17, 2016)

*Rules*

You dont have to agree with what other people write but you also should not be speaking negatively of another breeder. To educate is fine but not at the expense of someone else. And I believe it is a violation of the rules of this site. So are you saying every one else should follow rules, but you are the exception? How do you think you look to other buyers and breeders?


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Members are allowed to express their opinions regarding a Breeder, members may not agree with those opinions expressed.


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## Goldenfriend57 (Sep 17, 2016)

kaitlinf said:


> Has anyone heard of Timber Trails Goldens in Athol, MA? We are looking of a new pup. I found her from the AKC marketplace. Any information would be helpful. Thanks!


Hi;
I heard you purchased a pup from this breeder you were asking about. Good for you. I am sure you visited the breeder and checked out all you needed to know. Please dont be discouraged on this site from negative breeders. There is much competition among some breeders who think only they have the best dogs ( and we all think we have the best dog). 
You made a good choice.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Goldenfriend57 are you Timber Trails? 

I ask because the tone and wording of your most recent post seems consistent with other breeders in the past who have posed as their own puppy buyers and indicates a deeper involvement in dogs than a normal pet buyer would have.


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## Goldenfriend57 (Sep 17, 2016)

Please re read # 7 rule. As a newer member, i did read the rules and to me this is a clear violation. And , what is the satisfaction that another breeder gets from speaking negatively of someone else? It certainly isn't education of the breed, more of a poor attempt of someone trying to feed their own low self esteem.
Sorry, I just dont live like that. I did report the postings. 
Please help others get back on tract of what this forum is about. It is easy to get drawn into someones negative personality.


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## Goldenfriend57 (Sep 17, 2016)

LJack said:


> Goldenfriend57 are you Timber Trails?
> 
> I ask because the tone and wording of your most recent post seems consistent with other breeders in the past who have posed as their own puppy buyers and indicates a deeper involvement in dogs than a normal pet buyer would have.


You seem like a very untrusting person.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Goldenfriend57 said:


> You seem like a very untrusting person.


You choose to make a personal arrack on my character for asking a question and yet you don't answer. 

As I mentioned on two occasions prior, since the forum is a anonymous, other breeders who have not met the minimum of reputable breeding have posed as buyers or hidden their identity to try to do damage control when the facts of underage breeding or missing health certifications in their breeding choices are discussed. 

I'll ask again to see if I get an answer. Are you Timber Trails?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Goldenfriend57 said:


> Please re read # 7 rule. As a newer member, i did read the rules and to me this is a clear violation.


You may want to read further up in the thead. A moderator has already weighed in.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Goldenfriend57 said:


> Hi;
> I heard you purchased a pup from this breeder you were asking about. Good for you. I am sure you visited the breeder and checked out all you needed to know. Please dont be discouraged on this site from negative breeders. There is much competition among some breeders who think only they have the best dogs ( and we all think we have the best dog).
> You made a good choice.


You see it is posts like this that make me question if you are the breeder. 

You heard about this from the one time poster here who can't PM? 

Or is it more likely you know because you are Timber Trails? 

Honestly, if it is not either, that is more concerning that the breeder would disclose enough personal information about one puppy buyer to a person unknown to them that would allow then to identify the puppy buyer on a public forum with very limited information.


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

Goldenfriend57 said:


> Please re read # 7 rule. As a newer member, i did read the rules and to me this is a clear violation. And , what is the satisfaction that another breeder gets from speaking negatively of someone else? It certainly isn't education of the breed, more of a poor attempt of someone trying to feed their own low self esteem.
> Sorry, I just dont live like that. I did report the postings.
> Please help others get back on tract of what this forum is about. It is easy to get drawn into someones negative personality.





Goldenfriend57 said:


> You dont have to agree with what other people write but you also should not be speaking negatively of another breeder. To educate is fine but not at the expense of someone else. And I believe it is a violation of the rules of this site. So are you saying every one else should follow rules, but you are the exception? How do you think you look to other buyers and breeders?


Goldenfriend57, I have taken the liberty to post rule 7 here, and highlight the pertinent points. I've been following this thread with interest, as I happen to live in Massachusetts, and it is my personal opinion that all rules have been followed in this thread. Your comment of wondering "what satisfaction another breeder gets from speaking negatively of someone else" is curious to me, because to me, it would seem that you are interpreting that from the perspective of someone who also happens to breed Goldens. Furthermore, your note to this alleged puppy purchaser is also suspect. 

7. GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members will refrain from assassinating the character of another. – In heated discussion there is a tendency to malign the character of an opponent. *Care must be taken in the wording of all statements of denigration to not single out any individual.* *An example is instead of saying “You are a liar” (an unacceptable accusation) nearly the same sentiment can be expressed as, “I believe you are mistaken”. **Though the foregoing appears to be almost identical in the stated sentiment there is one major difference, the former attacks another’s character of honesty whereas the latter refers to a possible error having been made… this is a BIG distinction in any argument.** Also refer to the larger group rather than a single individual when trying to make statements of a derogatory nature. Example: “You are a reckless breeder for not obtaining health certifications before breeding” (this being an example of an unacceptable attack on someone’s character) rather instead use “I feel all breeders who breed their dogs without obtaining health certifications prior is being reckless”. Again, the difference in meaning might seem non-existent but the earlier statement directly attacks a specific individual’s character whereas the latter is an expression of attitude toward a whole class, yet in effect making it understood that “if the shoe fits…*

You may want to consider whether rule 7 would apply to your comments about a poster being trusting, and your statement about other breeders in Massachusetts "not being very nice." 

There have been multiple postings in this thread educating readers about health clearances, why many view them as vital to an ethical breeding program, and examples of easily found health clearance data from breeders websites, and what clearances look like. Some of us who live in the area and are familiar with a number of breeders who diligently obtain clearances on their dogs have commented on that fact. There is nothing wrong with providing points of education in a forum such as this for potential dog owners. That is, in fact, why the potential owners are asking questions on the forum. It does in fact promote the overall health and welfare of the breed. Given the unique genetic health problems that are common in Golden Retrievers, careful breeding is vital to maintaining the breed. 

Furthermore, this is also the stance taken by the GRCA. I would direct you to this website, which gives the exact same information that has been highlighted by other members who have posted here in this thread. https://www.grca.org/find-a-golden/about-breeders/selecting-a-breeder/


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