# Horse People - Need Advice!



## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

My usual portly, retired horse has lost a TON of weight this summer. It's not too unusual for him to drop a few pounds in the summer with all the mosquitoes bugging him, but he usually packs it back on by this time. May - July are the worst bug months but in mid-august, he should be putting on weight in preparation for the winter months (which are MAYBE 6-8 weeks away before we see sub-zero temps).

So, I last saw Virgil 2 weeks ago and he was at a moderate weight with only his last 2 ribs visible when he walked. Fast forward to today and ALL his ribs are visible and his hip bones are beginning to stick out!! He has NEVER been this skinny EVER. Of course, he's been on a round bale for all his life until we moved to this new place 3 years ago.

His teeth were done in the spring, he's up to date on his deworming (and is getting done this weekend, in fact) and I talked to the barn manager who said she's giving him 9-10 BIG flakes of hay a day. 4 in the morning, one or two at mid-afternoon, and 4 again at night. Unfortunately he's in with 2 other horses so it's hard to know who's eating what...the other two horses are WELL padded, borderline fat but both are smaller than him. Virgil is boss man so no one is chasing him away from his hay, but I observed today that his 'friend' is a vaccuum. The horses got 1 flake each around 4pm but I had to bring Virgil in for the farrier. 15 minutes later, little pony is still eating his flake, but Virgil's friend had already eaten his own portion and had started on Virgil's. Instead of chasing him away, Virgil went over and they ate Virgil's snack together. :doh: So obviously Virgil is a slow eater and his friend is helping him out.

The barn owner is reluctant to move his friend since they're friends, but I can't have my horse continuing to look like a scarecrow, especially with winter coming up. He needs a fat reserve on him to pull through the -40 temps.

So, my question is: how can I put fat on my horse in the shortest amount of time possible? The barn owner is going to switch to square bales with more alfalfa in them. I have some complete feed that should still be good (it's been stored for 2 years but not moldy, smelly, or buggy) but putting weight on Virgil has never been a problem before so I don't know what's best to use. He's allergic to flax, I'm not out there twice a day to be soaking beet pulp, and can't use canola oil since Virgil always goes in for kisses afterwards and no matter how hard I try, he manages to slobber canola oil all over me. Right now I'm thinking 12% complete feed (then 16% when I buy more), black oil sunflower seeds, and...?? That's all I have. Also, he's somewhat fussy and won't eat some brands of complete feed.

Any ideas?? I need to buy him a super heavy weight blanket, too. I put it off last year and was thinking i could get away without it again this year but after seeing him today, there's no way I make do with layering 2-3 blankets on him like I did last winter.


----------



## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

What about that weight builder stuff? If I remember, I will find out the brand of it today, and post it.


----------



## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

He's allergic to flax?

I don't know what is in the stuff I use to pack the weight on. It's named Empower and I fed Cotton almost a full scoop with his feed 2X a day one he got to be a senior and it made a world of difference. I know it has rice bran in it, but I don't know about flax. You have to start them out slow on it and build up to the amount they need to stay fit. I also feed "High Fat Horseman's Edge" to my older guys as their primary grain, but I don't know what is available in the far, frozen north.

I also fed it to Ranger when I first got him and now he gets almost no grain because he is past "borderline" fat.

More hay would be good too especially once it gets colder up there. I use round bales because going out to feed them hay all the time is tooooo much work.

I really wish he was close to me. I'd fatten him up for you - it's getting them to lose that is my problem.


----------



## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I checked and it has flaxseed in it.
Would it be enough to present Virgil with a problem? Maybe it is just a little bit.
You don't have to soak it or anything - just dump it in with their feed so it is easy to use.

*Empower™ Boost High-Fat Rice Bran Supplement *

*for Performance Horses and Hard Keepers*











*High-fat energy supplement provides:*


*An extruded combination of high-fat rice bran and flaxseed* for an improved blend of omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids.
*Highly digestible fat from vegetable sources* provides the extra nutrition to help support performance and endurance.
*Added prebiotics and probiotics* help support nutrient digestion.
*Trace minerals from organic complex sources* to maintain balanced trace mineral levels in the total diet.
*Added vitamin E and selenium* for anti-oxidant benefits.
*Balanced Calciumhosphorus ratio* for proper nutrient utilization.
*Stabilized nugget form* for easier feeding and improved shelf life made possible by state-of-the-art extrusion technology


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Has he been with his pasture mates for a long time or is this something recent. If he was put in with them this summer or spring and the weight loss followed then I'd say they were eating fast than he is. My portly fellow get 3 times as much in his mouth with every bite than the other two.

Also, how old is he? Older horses can have a hard time keeping weight on. 

Just some things to consider. We have 3 plumpettes here so I'm not well versed in how to feed skinny horses.


----------



## Lennap (Jul 9, 2010)

I wish I had a good answer for you on how to fatten him up, but with his allergy and your not wanting to use oil, I'm at a loss. 

However I did recently have to buy new blankets, mine disappeared when they were waiting for the wash/repair guy to pick them up, and found an inexpensive source. A seller on ebay called "tackmarket" has good quality at low prices - take a look at her store. I got a heavy weight, midweight and rain sheet all for around $300 USD.

Good luck!


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I wish I had advice... I went through something similar over winter and early spring with my guy. He was extremely thin and we gathered it was because he missed a worming. My barn lady worms the older horses more frequently (4-6 times a year) than the younger guys (2 a year). 

He was wormed, my barn lady added a supplement she gives her race horses, and he's been spending several hours a day out in pasture eating grass. This put the weight back on him - at least to the point that his bones aren't sticking out so badly.

Right now he still is thin, but it looks good on him and it best for his joints. Definitely, look into supplements and see what's going on out in the pasture.


----------



## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the help! 

Virgil is 16 this year so getting up there. He was always fairly well padded except for the summer months but even then, he never got this skinny. When he retired, he got downright fat on the round bale but when we moved, he lost his extra weight and maintained a good weight for about 2 years.

Lennap - I might try the canola oil. It's just such a pain with him being a sloppy eater and wanting to give constant kisses. My old barn jacket was covered in canola oil stains thanks to Virge's "kisses".


coppers-mom: I'm not sure if flax in a feed would bother him or not. When I started feeding him ground flax 5 years ago, he developed a bad couch in a matter of days. The cough didn't go away - even after I stopped feeding him the flax - until the vet came out with some super high steroids. Since then, I've been leary of feeding him flax, but maybe it's just the ground flax that bugs him. I'm not sure. But that feed looks like something I should get on him! I love the round bales but the barn owner prefers square bales. I'd be getting round bales if I ever have my own place. Way less work!

I'm starting to think I might have to request that this horse moves out of Virgil's paddock. I don't want Virgil not getting any food in his belly in mid-winter...and his weight loss definitely coincides with this guy moving into the paddock. The new horse moved in when Virgil's friend of over 10 years moved stables and that was back in June. Looks like I'm going to be a high maintenance boarder!

If anyone else thinks of anything, please let me know!


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

The only other thing I can think of is to give Virgil his hay in a stall...maybe he could come in for the night? That way he could get his oil...it would be off his face by morning...some extra hay...as long as he's not wasteful...extra grain and some supplements. It might raise your board $$ a bit but separating him and giving him 12 hours to eat extra might do the trick.


----------



## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

Maybe the cough was caused by Virgil breathing in some of the ground flax?
Empower is the size and shape of rabbit poo so he wouldn't breathe it in. It is the easist and fastest way I've found to fatten a horse.


----------



## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Penny's Mom said:


> The only other thing I can think of is to give Virgil his hay in a stall...maybe he could come in for the night? That way he could get his oil...it would be off his face by morning...some extra hay...as long as he's not wasteful...extra grain and some supplements. It might raise your board $$ a bit but separating him and giving him 12 hours to eat extra might do the trick.


Virgil's arthritic so while he might enjoy a stall at night (especially when it's cold out!), it's not good for his fetlock/pastern issues. Lord knows he has a bajillion in his right one - which is why he had to be retired at 12 years of age. But I'll talk to the barn owner...maybe he could come in at supper time then go back out when the nightly barn check is done so he actually gets to eat his 4 flakes of hay!



coppers-mom said:


> Maybe the cough was caused by Virgil breathing in some of the ground flax?
> Empower is the size and shape of rabbit poo so he wouldn't breathe it in. It is the easist and fastest way I've found to fatten a horse.


That thought occurred to me, too. The vet was so adamant that I shouldn't feed Virgil flax anymore because of how severe his cough was but maybe I'll get some flax cookies and see how he fares with those. Either way, Virgil is going to be mighty happy getting grain again. He hasn't had it for about 2 years now! 

Also, how much grain does everyone feed? I used to give Virgil hardly any, maybe an inch or two in his little bucket, because it was more for the supplements than anything else. Even when he was on the show circuit, he rarely got more than 2-3 inches of grain in his bucket. I started him off with just a little scoop yesterday.


----------



## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

I just checked out where to buy that Empower Boost feed and it's right by the pet store I always go to to get stuff for Ranger!! Looks like I'll be heading down there today to pick some up! Hopefully the flax only irritates Virgil when it's ground...not in pellet form! Fingers crossed!

So right now, Virgil's feed will be: 
- 12% complete feed
- Empower Boost
- Recoverex supplement
- BOSS
- possibly a glurg of canola oil

I'll start off slow to build up to all this, though. Coppers-mom, how much Empower Boost do you feed a day?


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

We feed Patriot 12%. She bumped Hershey up to 16% for a while and that did put weight on him. He came with parasite problems and once they got taken care of he went back to 12%.

My Daz (13 y.o.)gets a 6 oz yogurt container a.m. and p.m. and he's fat fat fat if he isn't worked regularly...which he isn't.  In addition to that he gets 1-2 thin flakes of hay morning and night. In addition he gets Smartpak supplements: Horseshoer's Secret (Smarkpak knock off) because he's barefoot all the time, B1, and electrolytes year 'round.

Harry, 10 y.o., who gets worked a little more and is a little younger gets 2 of the yogurt containers a.m. and p.m. Same amount of hay as Daz.

Hershey. also 10 y.o., gets 2 yogurt containers and more hay. He tends towards the leaner side and was quite gaunt when she got him. His supplements are B1, 2 tablets for his hocks, electrolytes and an ulcer medicine. He had worms REqALLY BAD when she got him and exhibited some discomfort after they were erradicated.

In the summer they get 2-6 hours of pasture, it depends on the weather and bugs. The pasture is quite lush most of the time and is too much for 3 horses. Sometimes I move them mid day from a lush pasture to an eaten down one so they can stay out and still have something to pick at. During the summer drought, we supplement pasture with hay outside.

These are Morgans, air ferns! Her old TB used to get 3 3-lb coffee cans per day, alpha cubes (something you could soak in a bucket at home and take to the barn when you go), and tons of hay. That would keep him thin but not emaciated. He had so little fat that keeping him warm in winter was a problem, even here in lower Michigan!


----------



## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

It could be stress causing him to lose weight too. My horse Sayler lost a TON of weight when he was out in a smaller paddock with way too many horses. Sayler liked "his space" and he was not getting any in this situation. He also was not a dominate horse so he was not getting to the hay. He would stand in a corner and not eat. The barn he was at would not feed hay in their stalls either. 

I don't think Virgil is getting his food. What is happening I can't be sure, you need to stay and watch probably, but I would get him into a paddock by himself for a while to fatten him up. He needs all the hay he can eat. I know you said you wormed him, but it may not hurt to do it again. This has been a weird summer our way, I could see the insects being an issue aka worms. It can't hurt. 

I moved Sayler from the barn he was at, it was a bad situation, in just a few weeks he was FAT again and all we did was give him all the hay he could eat. Just a little grain.


----------



## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

You need to move him away from the other horses, at least during feeding time. They may be intimidating him too; not just eating faster. If he continues to loose weight I would also get another vet check done...some horses need their teeths floated more then once a year as they get up in age. What type of horse is he?

Another resource, even if you are not in my area, is www.bayequest.com on their message board. We have some really good equine nutritionists there (thinking Dr. Thunes) who are happy to analyze what you are feeding and help you come up with dietary changes. 

I hope this helps!
Kimberly (& Mystery The Morab, 24 years young and an easy keeper, thank goodness!)


----------



## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Well, he's definitely not stressed or not being allowed to eat. He's the top horse of the group of 3 in there and when he pins his ears, the other two scatter. The problem is that he's happy to share his hay with one of the horses and that horse is the one who's eating Virgil's portions. The other two guys are smaller, more QH stock type horses and they're only supposed to be getting about 4-6 (big) flakes a day while Virgil gets closer to 9-12...except he's not chasing off the horses from his food!

I already picked up some canola oil and am about to go get empower boost...I'm going to talk to the barn owner again today and see if the other horse can be moved out or if Virgil can get brought in for meals. I don't want him not getting enough hay when it's -30 and he needs that hay to keep warm. As it is, I'm going to have a tough time trying to get him to fatten before the cold temps hit. I hope it's a late winter!

Maxs Mom - Unfortunately Virgil can't be moved away from others for his meals; he's a social butterfly and gets too upset/stressed to eat when he's by himself in a paddock, even if there are other horses in neighboring paddocks. He is getting dewormed again this weekend, so hopefully that helps too.


----------



## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

coppers-mom said:


> I checked and it has flaxseed in it.
> Would it be enough to present Virgil with a problem? Maybe it is just a little bit.
> You don't have to soak it or anything - just dump it in with their feed so it is easy to use.
> 
> ...


Yep, that is the stuff!! It really helped my friends QTR gain weight. Years ago I had a horse that I fed Strategy, because her bite was slightly off. Wish they would of had this stuff back then!


----------



## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Ranger said:


> Maxs Mom - Unfortunately Virgil can't be moved away from others for his meals; he's a social butterfly and gets too upset/stressed to eat when he's by himself in a paddock, even if there are other horses in neighboring paddocks. He is getting dewormed again this weekend, so hopefully that helps too.


Can they corner him in his paddock with his buddies so he is not 'moved out' yet alone to eat? I hear what you are saying. You would think if he were right next door he would be fine. But if they could put boards up to keep him in his corner or the others away from him just for an hour or two a feeding... I know that is a lot, but if he is that thin they have to be concerned too.

How is his coat? Still shiny? Just wondering if some blood work might not hurt. Thinking as I type. Sayler looked like crap because he had been picked on so by the other horses but he still had a nice coat though sunburned. Coat condition can say so much. Since he is older notice the little things. 

My OLD man (close to 32 at this story's time) was an easy keeper. He had lost weight (he was almost 32 not much left in teeth) but still was extremely shiny black. One day I noticed he wasn't shining. Still eating, still normal just not shiny. I called the vet. We decided he needed to be tube wormed. Tube would not go down his throat, he had an obstruction or a tumor. The next day he went down hill and was put to sleep. I knew something was not right, he was not shiny.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Get a stool sample checked, just to rule out parasites. Probably not the problem but easy to check. We worm every 30 days on a rotation schedule. Once we got Hershey clear of parasites, he gained weight, especially muscle and actually turned a different color. He was kind of orangey chestnut. His seller said they called him Hershey because when he was born he looked like a chocolate bar. Okay....we didn't see that, but oh well... NOW, he's the color of milk chocolate.

His story is: came from NC where parasites have developed drug resistance because they live all year long. His famous owner and trainer cut corners on him because he didn't make the show string.


----------



## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

I went to the store that supposedly sold Empower Boost but couldn't find it. When I asked the lady there, she told me "they changed names" and steered me towards another product. I was emphatically telling her I need Empower Boost and she just as emphatically told me that they'd changed names and THIS is what I wanted. Sigh. At any rate, I bought a little container of the other stuff since I needed to start him on something ASAP but I'll keep looking around for Empower Boost. I walked out the store and thought to myself, "and that is why i never shop here." Frustrating! 

Regarding worming: the horses get fecal samples done once a year and his was done already and nothing looked abnormal. I just bought some dewormer today so I'll give it to him tomorrow. His coat is still shiny and silky, still lots of energy in him (he was not good for the farrier yesterday thanks to that energy) and is overall still happy as usual. Just need some more weight on him!

I'm going to go out and talk to the barn owner tomorrow and see if we can come up with a solution. Maybe the food thief can be removed for meal times since he's the one oinking everything down! 

Also on my never-ending to do list this weekend is start finding a good winter blanket. Then figure out a way to pay for it!


----------



## sdain31y (Jul 5, 2010)

Years ago (too many to admit to) we used calf manna to supplement food for stressed horses. The horses loved it and it doesn't have flax in it. Usually carried in regular feed stores.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Also on my never-ending to do list this weekend is start finding a good winter blanket. Then figure out a way to pay for it!


Ack. I forgot it's getting to that time of the year....  

My guy decimated his coat over winter (turnout blanket, but he wore it as a stable blanket too). It was only $75, but geez.


----------



## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

I was planning on using all 3 of Virgil's blankets on him again when it got cold, but he never really had that "pocket of warmth" when I stuck my hand in to check on him. He wasn't cold - no tucked tail, no shivering, no hunched back - but he wasn't warm either. Winter liner, 8 year old winter blanket and 4 year old winter blanket plus a hood and a rain sheet if it was snowing. That's a lot of gear! Now that he's not going to be fat...time to shell out a few hundred dollars for a thick, waterproof blanket. I guess it can be his early Christmas present!

Any good winter blanket recommendations? I need something with 400 fill, at least.


----------



## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Whoops, got that done!!! Found a blanket that I could order online from a local tack store! Virgil is going to be the proud new owner of a Rambo Supreme Heavy with 420 fill! The only bad thing is the colour is so boring. Navy or black. Booo! But it was on sale from 430 dollars to just under 300 and only had two sizes left. Fingers crossed it'll fit Virgil! All the other stores have sold out these blankets, never mind getting one on sale.

Here's the website pic of it:









Waterproof, removable neck piece, v-snap closure...I'm so happy! This plus a liner underneath should keep him warm even on the coldest days and nights. Not to mention, one less thing for me to do this weekend!


----------



## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

*Update:*

I talked to the barn owner today and she's going to move the horse who's eating all Virgil's hay out of the paddock on Tuesday. It'll be a little sad for Virgil since he really likes this guy (which is why he happily shares his meals with him) but I'll feel better knowing Virgil's getting his 9-12 flakes of hay a day!

Now it's just putting weight back on him. He had complete feed, weight boosting supplement and a glug of canola oil (which he managed to get all over me...I don't even know HOW he did that!) and is now super excited when he sees his red bucket coming out of the barn. Hopefully with the extra hay and extra grain he'll put on the 200-300 pounds quickly, but safely.

I'll post pics later this week. He's about a 3 on the horse body condition scale. It's scary.


----------

