# Gunner-causing problems at the new place



## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

bumping up


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

You could try melatonin to see if it helps, you can pick it up at a drug store. There's lots of information on it online, but it more or less helps them relax and sleep naturally...

I would also do a crate in a room with the radio on or the TV for background noise. Something where you can shut the door, and do that when you are home as well so it's part of his routine. Maybe if you do a good walk in the morning, then the melatonin and into the crate with the door shut and radio on he'll settle. If nothing else he won't damage as much and he might feel more secure too.

Lana


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Bender said:


> You could try melatonin to see if it helps, you can pick it up at a drug store. There's lots of information on it online, but it more or less helps them relax and sleep naturally...
> 
> I would also do a crate in a room with the radio on or the TV for background noise. Something where you can shut the door, and do that when you are home as well so it's part of his routine. Maybe if you do a good walk in the morning, then the melatonin and into the crate with the door shut and radio on he'll settle. If nothing else he won't damage as much and he might feel more secure too.
> 
> Lana


Okay, spoke to my vet yesterday afternoon. She prescribed Clomipramine. I don't like the idea of medicating him, but she thinks that the stress itself is probably doing more harm than giving him some anti-anxiety meds for a short time. We picked it up and started him on it last night. The only bad thing is, it can take two to four weeks before it really kicks in. Ugh. I don't know what I'm going to do with him, in the meantime. I just keep hoping that everyday will get a little better, as he starts to feel more secure here.

I was going to have mom stop on her way home tonight and see if she can find a crate, but I'm wondering if that's such a good idea. He's never been in a crate in his life, so I don't know if it's a good idea to introduce one now, when he's already so stressed out??
I think we'll get one, set it all up for him and see if he wants to go in it. If it will make him feel secure, he'll go in on his own. And if he doesn't, then I'll figure that he wants no part of it and pushing the issue would make matters worse right now. Does that sound like a good approach?

He's eating fine and he'll go off in another room and lay down by himself now, so that's a good sign! We just have to work on leaving him alone and hope he gets used to it, quickly.


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

You said he is destructive and barking when you take Riley out. What is he like when Riley is there and you and your mom are gone?


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## Keri Kuch (Feb 21, 2010)

My vet prescribed something similar for my Emma because of her severe reactions to thunderstorms. We found that it really helped her. He also suggested a collar that they can wear that emits a hormone that is similiar the their mothers that is supposed to be very calming (I think that is how it went ) I have also heard about a calming device that you can plug into an electical outlet in the room where your dog is located. I don't know quite how it works but some of my vets clients were reporting that it works quite well. I agree with the crate. Many dogs feel safe in their crate and perhaps this would help him when he feels insecure. Good Luck!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Lisa_and_Willow. said:


> You said he is destructive and barking when you take Riley out. What is he like when Riley is there and you and your mom are gone?


 
Not quite as bad. I just tried that this morning, to see if he'd be good long enough for me to haul some boxes out to the dumpster. 

We always separate them when they're left alone, so I did the same this morning. I used the baby gates, though, rather than putting them in separate rooms and closing doors. Figured it might help if he could see Riley.

He was whining and fussing quite a bit, but he wasn't going on with the frantic barking like he does when I take Riley out, and he didn't try to claw at the carpet or knock the gates down.

I just feel so bad for him. I mean, I get mad at him for being a PITA and I worry about him getting us in trouble with neighbors or the management around here, but I know he's just stressed out. He's such a sensitive boy and he'd only known one house in his life. He doesn't understand what the heck is going on.


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

Im so sorry that Gunner is going through this. When my daughter moved from one apartment to another Riley (Her lab mix) would cry and howl the whole time she was gone. We tried two different meds and neither worked. It was so sad. The people living below her were complaining to the office so I had to take her home with me. She was fine at home. We never did have time to try anything else.
I know how you are feeling, how frustrated and upset and how bad you feel for Gunner. I hope that you find something that works for him. Please keep us informed.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

amy22 said:


> Im so sorry that Gunner is going through this. When my daughter moved from one apartment to another Riley (Her lab mix) would cry and howl the whole time she was gone. We tried two different meds and neither worked. It was so sad. The people living below her were complaining to the office so I had to take her home with me. She was fine at home. We never did have time to try anything else.
> I know how you are feeling, how frustrated and upset and how bad you feel for Gunner. I hope that you find something that works for him. Please keep us informed.


Oh boy... I don't even want to think that this might not work. I _can't _think about it. 
I mean, we can't afford to have problems here, but I don't have anyone who could take him. The only people on the planet (that I know) that I would trust with Gunner are my uncle and his wife. And they can't do it now. My uncle would take Gunner in a _heartbeat_, but I don't think my aunt would want to take on another dog right now. They just got a Yorkie pup and they already have a GSD of their own who is a REAL challenge. Three different behaviorists have told them that he's not wired right and is basically mentally ill... so she has her hands full!

Nope, failure is not an option. It's only been a few days, so I don't want to get ahead of myself. I just have to give it as much time as we're afforded and hope he adjusts before it's a real serious, immediate problem.


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

Im so sorry if I worried you, that was not my intention..I shouldnt have even written about Riley...I just wanted you to know that we went through this too. We only had a week to try and work this out because of her neighbors....but you have time. Im sure it will be ok...have you tried giving a frozen peanut butter filled Kong when you leave? I feel really bad for worrrying you. 
My daughter also contacted a behaviorist and they said to leave her in the crate with a kong..that did not help Riley, but like I said we had no time to get things to work. I think its a process and those mean neighbors would not give her a chance to work on it.
Please let me know how it goes..


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

amy22 said:


> Im so sorry if I worried you, that was not my intention..I shouldnt have even written about Riley...I just wanted you to know that we went through this too. We only had a week to try and work this out because of her neighbors....but you have time. Im sure it will be ok...have you tried giving a frozen peanut butter filled Kong when you leave? I feel really bad for worrrying you.
> My daughter also contacted a behaviorist and they said to leave her in the crate with a kong..that did not help Riley, but like I said we had no time to get things to work. I think its a process and those mean neighbors would not give her a chance to work on it.
> Please let me know how it goes..


Please don't feel bad about it! Honestly. It's good to know that others have gone through it, too. And it's good to know that the medication may not work for him. It's worrisome, sure -- but it's very helpful, too. I wouldn't want to count on it working and then be sitting here, up a creek, if or when it doesn't. I'm glad you told me about Riley, so really - don't feel bad!
The Kong doesn't work for him. We tried a fresh beef knuckle bone, too. Didn't work. When he's nervous, ticked off or upset he wants nothing to do with food or treats.

Today, I've been working on taking Riley out, repeatedly, just to try to get Gunner desensitized to it. I think we've gone out about sixty times today. Riley probably thinks that I've gone 'round the bend, but I figure if we do it a couple hundred times a day, eventually Gunner will get used to it and will realize that it's okay, that we come back. We started going out for just a second or two, in front of the window where Gunner could still see us. Then we'd stay out there for a few minutes. Then move out of sight for a couple seconds, etc. I'm not seeing a huge difference yet, but there seems to be a _little_ improvement. (At least he's not shaking anymore, when I put my coat on.) Baby steps.


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

OK well Im glad you are seeing some improvement, no matter how small. You are on the right road. I think you are doing the right thing taking Riley out alot. Gunner Im srue will get used to it at some point...you just have to have patience..and I know sometimes that is difficult..but you will get there! Yes baby steps......
Let me know how it goes...it will get better..maybe slowly, but it will get better..poor Gunner....how hard that musst be but he'll come around..and I think my daughters dog Riley would have also if we had the time to work with her.
Good luck!!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

amy22 said:


> OK well Im glad you are seeing some improvement, no matter how small. You are on the right road. I think you are doing the right thing taking Riley out alot. Gunner Im srue will get used to it at some point...you just have to have patience..and I know sometimes that is difficult..but you will get there! Yes baby steps......
> Let me know how it goes...it will get better..maybe slowly, but it will get better..poor Gunner....how hard that musst be but he'll come around..and I think my daughters dog Riley would have also if we had the time to work with her.
> Good luck!!


Ugh - it's not getting better. I thought we were starting to see some improvement, and in some ways I think we are, but in other ways, it's not getting any better at all.
I know anxiety was playing a big part at first, but now it just seems like he's acting up out of temper. 
He's eating fine, he'll go off in another room by himself to take a snooze, he's playing and everything... so it really doesn't seem like anxiety, at this point. It seems like he gets ticked off when I take Riley outside and he acts out.
I was hauling a bunch more boxes out to the garbage yesterday and when he and Riley were both left in here, he was fine.
Took Riley out a little bit later and came back in to find that he'd torn up the carpet again. I'll have to call maintenence to fix it this time. (I'm sure they'll be real happy about that.)
I don't know what to do with him. At this point, Riley and I are stuck in the house all day long, except for real quick potty breaks right outside the door.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I just wanted to give you some encouragement. You can do it, you will get through this! My dad owns a new home construction company and he and my mom build a new home every two to four years. Casey and Laura moved about 3 or 4 times over the course of their life. They are really no worse for wear that any other dog I've met. They made the transitions really easily, maybe because they were used to it (?). Give Gunner some time. I also don't think it would be a bad idea to involve the trainer ASAP. It couldn't hurt and then atleast you'd know you have done everything you could to make Gunner's transition the best it could be.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

CarolinaCasey said:


> I just wanted to give you some encouragement. You can do it, you will get through this! My dad owns a new home construction company and he and my mom build a new home every two to four years. Casey and Laura moved about 3 or 4 times over the course of their life. They are really no worse for wear that any other dog I've met. They made the transitions really easily, maybe because they were used to it (?). Give Gunner some time. I also don't think it would be a bad idea to involve the trainer ASAP. It couldn't hurt and then atleast you'd know you have done everything you could to make Gunner's transition the best it could be.


Thanks for the encouragement. I could use all I can get right about now! 
And yeah, we'll get through it. We _have_ to - that's all there is to it. Failure is not an option.
I'm going to make some calls today and see if I can find a trainer or behaviorist.


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

No advice but I wanted to wish you luck and hope that Gunner comes to his senses soon!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Lisa_and_Willow. said:


> No advice but I wanted to wish you luck and hope that Gunner comes to his senses soon!


Thanks! He'd better come to his senses, if he knows what's good for him. **** dog. LOL. I love the big dufus, but man he can try my patience...! 

I got the number for a trainer who doesn't sound half bad. Of course his office is closed on Tuesdays. (Aaaaghh!) I'll have to call tomorrow and see what he has to say. If he sounds good, I'll set up an appointment for him to come out. I definitely need help with this one. I can't figure out how to stop him from doing these things when I'm not here to stop him from doing them. :doh:


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Well, things are only getting worse.
Riley had to do his thing yesterday, so I had to stay out there while he found the perfect spot and Gunner was barking non-stop for a good ten minutes. One of the neighbors came by to let me know that she can hear him plain as day (and these units are soundproof!) She said that she didn't want to complain to management because, as she was nice enough to inform me, you basically get one formal complaint here for nuissance barking. When you get a second, they can give you 48 hours to remove the dog from the premises. It's at the property manager's discretion, apparently.

I spoke to another trainer yesterday and he didn't give me much hope. He said that he could 'probably' help us, but that it wouldn't be easy and it would take time. He said that we're trying to extinguish an established habit that's gotten worse with the move and there's no magic bullet for that. It's time and patience and there will be barking while we work on it. Great. 
I've talked to other people who keep suggesting a shock collar and a crate. This trainer said that's absolutely, without question, the LAST thing we want to do. 
So, I have no idea what we're going to do. There just doesn't seem to be any good options at this point.


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

I'm so sorry. I wonder if one of those plug-in things would help him? 

http://www.amazon.com/Farnam-Comfort-Zone-Dogs-Diffuser/dp/B000J3HZWE

The reviews look like they are hit or miss... But it might be worth a shot?

Also, I watched on an episode of It's Me or the Dog... they had this CD of music that was meant to help slow and calm the dog's heartbeat down, to relax them. 

http://www.bulldoginformation.com/music-for-dogs.html

Like the beats and the timing of the music helps them relax. Maybe try plugging the relaxing stuff in and popping in a CD for him?


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

Actually, this is the exact thing Victoria used in the episode.

http://www.throughadogsear.com/


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

http://www.amazon.com/Through-Dogs-Ear-Canine-Companion/dp/1591796423

The ratings are VERY high! There wasn't a single "one star" rating on here. 

I really hope this helps.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Mssjnnfer said:


> Actually, this is the exact thing Victoria used in the episode.
> 
> http://www.throughadogsear.com/


Thank you! I'll try it. And I'm going to look for those plug-in pheromone thingies tomorrow. I'll try just about _anything_ at this point.

He's a 7-year-old GSD with separation anxiety and EPI. Even if I could bring myself to give him up, I'd never find the perfect home for him. 

I did talk to one woman who runs a GSD rescue, just to touch base with her in case the worst would happen and we find ourselves being told that he has to go, or _we_ go. She told me that in some cases euthenasia is the most humane thing to do. GOD! I was so upset when I got off the phone with her.
We just have to stop the barking. That's the main concern right now - the destruction we can deal with later.

Thanks again!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

LifeOfRiley said:


> I did talk to one woman who runs a GSD rescue, just to touch base with her in case the worst would happen and we find ourselves being told that he has to go, or _we_ go. She told me that in some cases euthenasia is the most humane thing to do. GOD! I was so upset when I got off the phone with her.
> We just have to stop the barking. That's the main concern right now - the destruction we can deal with later.


<<gulp>> 

I've been following your thread. I don't have any suggestions, I wish I did. I just wish all your neighbors were like me, you'd have all the time and support you need.

I like your attitude though, deal with the behavior now, deal with the destruction later.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> <<gulp>>
> 
> I've been following your thread. I don't have any suggestions, I wish I did. I just wish all your neighbors were like me, you'd have all the time and support you need.
> 
> I like your attitude though, deal with the behavior now, deal with the destruction later.


I wish they were, too! The bad thing is, most of the people we've met so far seem really nice. The one, not so much. We're just hoping that maybe her lease will be up soon and she won't renew.  

Yeah, that's the game plan - stop the barking so we don't have any more complaints. If he tears up the carpet or ruins the blinds, whatever... we can fix or replace that stuff, if need be. Obviously, I want to work on it, but it's not real high on the priority list right now.


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## Tahla9999 (Nov 21, 2008)

Not that I agree with bark collars, but a women who live very close to me had a similar problem. She kept her Dachshund outside on the balcony all day, so I'm pretty sure the poor thing was bored out of its mind. Every time someone walk by it, it will start barking its head off. And that dog's barking was one of the most annoying that I have ever heard, and I have heard plenty. The neighbors tolerated for a long time( which is surprising) before someone finally told the landlord. 

The next thing I know, I pass the balcony without a sound. I thought she sold the dog until I looked in and the dog had a bark collar. Never heard it again.

Sad really, but in cases like yours I can't really judge what you do. Just a terrible situation all around.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Tahla9999 said:


> Not that I agree with bark collars, but a women who live very close to me had a similar problem. She kept her Dachshund outside on the balcony all day, so I'm pretty sure the poor thing was bored out of its mind. Every time someone walk by it, it will start barking its head off. And that dog's barking was one of the most annoying that I have ever heard, and I have heard plenty. The neighbors tolerated for a long time( which is surprising) before someone finally told the landlord.
> 
> The next thing I know, I pass the balcony without a sound. I thought she sold the dog until I looked in and the dog had a bark collar. Never heard it again.
> 
> Sad really, but in cases like yours I can't really judge what you do. Just a terrible situation all around.


Ya know, I really don't like those collars either. Never have. But I've had quite a few 'GSD people' suggest it now. It seems like most people view them as a last resort and like a few have said - we're there. We need to stop his barking immediately and when that's the case, there are very few options. I don't know - I'm actually thinking about it, and I never thought I would.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm so sorry you're in a situation where you have to consider least favorable options now. And not just consider them, but having to count on them to work


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## zephyr (Sep 29, 2009)

LifeOfRiley said:


> Ya know, I really don't like those collars either. Never have. But I've had quite a few 'GSD people' suggest it now. It seems like most people view them as a last resort and like a few have said - we're there. We need to stop his barking immediately and when that's the case, there are very few options. I don't know - I'm actually thinking about it, and I never thought I would.


I've been following your thread, and I really feel for you guys... You are really really trying to do the best you can do in a really difficult situation!!!! I don't really know anything about how to stop him from barking/destroying your house, but... if the bark collar can keep him from bothering your neighbors, which could be the end of either his or ALL of your time in that place....... then maybe you really are at that time of "last resort". You've already heard from that GSD rescue that they don't think there would be a place for him elsewhere... and obviously you are not going to have him PTS (_*omg *I cannot believe that's what they said, I guess it was honest??? but still!!_)... so if it were me, I'd probably be thinking bark collar, just until you can get him under control...  Did that trainer you spoke with say anything about them? I guess I can see it might "backfire" if it makes him feel more angry/upset/insecure in your house, buuut... I see you are running out of options here! 

Guess I didn't say much to help, but just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you guys!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

zephyr said:


> I've been following your thread, and I really feel for you guys... You are really really trying to do the best you can do in a really difficult situation!!!! I don't really know anything about how to stop him from barking/destroying your house, but... if the bark collar can keep him from bothering your neighbors, which could be the end of either his or ALL of your time in that place....... then maybe you really are at that time of "last resort". You've already heard from that GSD rescue that they don't think there would be a place for him elsewhere... and obviously you are not going to have him PTS (_*omg *I cannot believe that's what they said, I guess it was honest??? but still!!_)... so if it were me, I'd probably be thinking bark collar, just until you can get him under control...  Did that trainer you spoke with say anything about them? I guess I can see it might "backfire" if it makes him feel more angry/upset/insecure in your house, buuut... I see you are running out of options here!
> 
> Guess I didn't say much to help, but just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you guys!


Oh, it helps. Believe me, the moral support from you guys does help!

The trainer said that he'd be afraid of a bark collar making his anxiety worse, but I don't know. The people who have used them for dogs with SA swear that it doesn't and that it can actually help to calm them down. It's supposed to interrupt the cycle of them barking, getting all worked up, barking even more, etc. I guess it sort of snaps them out of it before they can really get on a roll. And from what I'm hearing, most people have only had to use it for a few days here and there. The rest of the time the collar is either turned off or they don't need to wear it at all.

And yeah, I was shocked when that woman from the rescue said that. I mean, I understand it in a strictly rational, logical sense and I understand what she was _trying_ to say, but wow... it caught me off guard.
She was really (I think) trying to tell me what I already knew -- that finding him another home is not an option, not just because it would be nearly impossible to do so, but because of what it would do to him. He's barking and clawing at the carpet by the door because he doesn't want me to leave him and he's trying to get to me. I can't imagine what being taken away and put in a new home would do to him. At that point, I think she's probably right and it would be more humane. But it's SO _never gonna happen! _ He's staying right here come hell or high water.
We'll figure it out, somehow.


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

I just wanted you to know that I feel for you...and that when it comes right down to it, you have to do what you have to do. Maybe you wont have to use the bark collar for too long. I would do whatever I had to do to break the cycle...I hope this works. Please keep us informed. My thoughts are with you....{{HUGS}}


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I hadn't seen this till now, Deni. I am so sorry you guys are going through this. I feel so sorry for Gunner. You know my Gunner has anxiety too and I don't know how he'd react in a new place. He is so nervous at my daughters' houses!

I missed why you can't take him out when you take Riley out? because he attacks Riley? 

We use melatonin on Gunner and it really helps. I hope your Gunner's meds start working soon! It's awful they take so long to kick in! Plus you probably can't use anything else till as weel till it works right? Like valium?

I am sending positive thoughts!


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Have you tried the airplaine type crate and start making it a positive experience by throwing treats in there, feeding him it and leaving him in there for a few minutes and going in another room. Giving him a kong filled with goodies with you working in the same rom then walk out for a few minutes. Then make it a little longer. 
I feel so bad for you because it is your home but another person can mean he would have to leave. 
I would also try the citronella bark collar to start off for when you need to go outside with Riley to see how that works. Also try that melatonin. I know that Deb had some great results with that for her Gunner.


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

It may not help at all as it depends how anxious Gunner is but here is what I tried with Diesel as a pup.

I never crated Diesel but he was kept in the kitchen with a baby gate and away from my older dog. He was a little s**t at barking and crying when I left. What I did was get everything ready like I was leaving but instead of leave I hid where he couldn't see me. When he started the noise I would throw something loud on the floor to startle him and as he was quiet I would 'return'. It took a while but it did work. 

Food would never work as a destraction for Diesel. He would get too worked up to eat.

Would the bark collar be a shock collar or a spray collar?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

How often do you ask him to be away from you around the house? I'd start by using physical separation w/o visual separation... so he can *see* you, but can't make the choice to come sit with you. For example, tether him to one end of the room (with a bone, etc.) while you sit at the other. Just chill that way. It's a really baby step, but IMO it does teach a lesson. Even though you say he'll choose to leave and lie in another room away from you, that's his choice and it's different from you saying, "you'll be away from me now." Do lots of this. Then add popping out of sign for a nano, nano, NANO second and return, etc. Build up from there.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

I don't think you should use a bark collar on an EPI dog, either shock or spray. I am very concerned it could trigger his seizures. Sorry, I know you were hoping this would be an answer.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Aagh - I had a nice long reply typed out and the forum ate it. :doh:
Let's try this again...




Claire's Friend said:


> I don't think you should use a bark collar on an EPI dog, either shock or spray. I am very concerned it could trigger his seizures. Sorry, I know you were hoping this would be an answer.


Oh no, he doesn't epilepsy -- it's Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency. No seizures or anything like that. And I agree - I wouldn't use anything like that on a dog who has seizures. 

Stephanie - Believe it or not, I was thinking about that the other night. I think my working from home has contributed greatly to Gunner being a big mama's boy. They're never closed out. Whether they're with me or not has always been their choice. I was thinking about closing both the dogs out of the room for periods of time while I'm working. I take frequent breaks, so it's not like it would ever be for hours at a time or anything, but it might help to teach him that I can be away from him when I choose to be and he'll survive.
I've started closing the bathroom door when I shower, too. I figure that letting him lay right next to the tub is probably just fueling the fire and closing the door might be an opportunity to teach him something. He lays right outside the door (and gives me a dirty look once I open it) but he doesn't fuss. We'll start adding these "away" periods into the daily routine.

Carol - we're looking for one of those crates. Mom stopped the other night on her way home from work, but the store didn't have one big enough. We'll have to order one, I guess. I really don't think he'll take to a crate at this point, but I'm going to try it. If it could help calm him, it's worth a shot.

Lisa - That's a really good idea. We used the old coins in a soda can trick for his demand barking and it worked like a charm. I haven't had to bring the can out in I don't know HOW long. If he demand barks, all we have to say is "Do you want the can?" He knows what it means. I don't know if it'll hold up when I actually DO leave, but it just might. He hates that can. I hadn't thought of how to use that, but his whining and barking usually does start as soon as I put him in the other room and get my coat. If I go out of his sight, open and close the back door, we should be able to start working on it.
And the advice I'm getting is that I should use a shock collar. They're saying that the spray ones don't work and can actually make the barking worse in some cases. I don't know... I just hate the thought of it. Punishing a dog for anxiety runs contrary to everything I've ever seen, heard or read. I know a last resort is a last resort, but I just don't like it.

Thanks, Deb! I know - I feel so bad for him, too. There are times when it gets so frustrating that I could just brain him. Then I take one look at him and feel horrible.
I'm glad the melatonin works for your Gunner. Is that something you can use long-term, or is it only for particularly stressful times? I definitely want to ask our vet about it. The clomipramine isn't doing anything (yet, anyway) and I don't know if that's intended for long-term use, either. Or if I'd WANT to keep him on it long-term. The melatonin might be an alternative.
And yeah, he still has this weird thing about going after Riley when they're out together. They're fine in the house and they're fine most of the time they're outside together. The minute we get near the back door, he turns and tries to nail him. There was that one incident, over a year ago, when Riley tried to take Gunner's toy away at the back door and accidentally bit Gunner. We think Gunner misunderstood and thought Riley was coming after HIM. (That's all we can think of, since Gunner will let Riley take toys away from him any other time and couldn't care less.) He's just never forgotten that one incident. Even in the new house, new surroundings and everything, he still goes after him at the door.

I felt so bad for him yesterday. I wanted to run out to the store, so mom stayed home. He wasn't barking, but when I got ready to leave he whined and cried and howled like his entire world was coming to an end. It was all I could do to walk out the door and not say 'forget it' and stay home with him. She said he calmed down pretty quick after I left, but man... the performance before I left was enough to break my heart.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*I felt so bad for him yesterday. I wanted to run out to the store, so mom stayed home. He wasn't barking, but when I got ready to leave he whined and cried and howled like his entire world was coming to an end. It was all I could do to walk out the door and not say 'forget it' and stay home with him. She said he calmed down pretty quick after I left, but man... the performance before I left was enough to break my heart. *

Another thing you can start working on: Make a list of all the things you do when you're getting ready to leave: put on shoes, pick up keys, grab purse, walk to the door, etc. Then start doing those things in a very random order and do them several times a day w/o actually leaving. Right now, that sequence is a huge cue to him that you're leaving, so he's getting all worked up before you ever actually go.

So... pick up your keys and walk around the house with them. 20 mins later, go put on your shoes like you're leaving, but then go sit back down and do work, etc. We want to teach him that those things don't really mean anything.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Your Gunner sounds SO much like mine!!! When my Gunner was a puppy(6-8 months) Gunner was lying on the couch where my husband always sits. Dan came in and told Gunner to get down in a normal tone of voice (not yelling or anything) and Gunner acted like he had been beaten!
Ever since he won't get up on the couch with Selka and I! He lies on the floor by my feet. He will climb in my lap if it's storming (clawing me!) but not to lie next to me! He has never forgotten Dan telling him to get down. He is SO sensitive!!!

I hope the suggestions from Steph help. I feel bad for both of you!!!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Sounds like Stephanie is on the mark. I remember when we had to work on reconditioning with Tucker. He was sound sensitive and whenever he thought a smoke alarm might go off or did, he'd nearly jump through the glass on our backdoor to get away from the noise. A trainer who works with dogs for the deaf helped us a lot. It's work, but it works, but not as quickly as you may like.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Honestly, I'd use the collar. You've gotten great advice on the forum but they all take time, and that's not really something you have. A few quick corrections, while not pleasant, aren't really painful either, and then you can put the problem behind you.I'd also get a crate. Don't just lock him up in there immediately and leave. The first few days just feed him his dinner in there with the door open. Then shut the door while he's in there chewing on something he really likes (bully stick or something). Then do the same while you go into another room. Then you can work up to leaving the house.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> *I felt so bad for him yesterday. I wanted to run out to the store, so mom stayed home. He wasn't barking, but when I got ready to leave he whined and cried and howled like his entire world was coming to an end. It was all I could do to walk out the door and not say 'forget it' and stay home with him. She said he calmed down pretty quick after I left, but man... the performance before I left was enough to break my heart. *
> 
> Another thing you can start working on: Make a list of all the things you do when you're getting ready to leave: put on shoes, pick up keys, grab purse, walk to the door, etc. Then start doing those things in a very random order and do them several times a day w/o actually leaving. Right now, that sequence is a huge cue to him that you're leaving, so he's getting all worked up before you ever actually go.
> 
> So... pick up your keys and walk around the house with them. 20 mins later, go put on your shoes like you're leaving, but then go sit back down and do work, etc. We want to teach him that those things don't really mean anything.


Oh, absolutely - he's completely worked up before I get anywhere _near_ the door. (He starts getting suspicious and will keep an eye on me when he sees me taking clothes out of my closet and it just gets worse from there.) 
But that really makes a lot of sense. I've sort of had tunnel vision, trying to think of ways to keep him quiet, now, while I'm gone. But I get it now -- teach him not to fuss before I leave and it should carry over and he'll _stay _quiet when I do. Thank you!



Debles said:


> Your Gunner sounds SO much like mine!!! When my Gunner was a puppy(6-8 months) Gunner was lying on the couch where my husband always sits. Dan came in and told Gunner to get down in a normal tone of voice (not yelling or anything) and Gunner acted like he had been beaten!
> Ever since he won't get up on the couch with Selka and I! He lies on the floor by my feet. He will climb in my lap if it's storming (clawing me!) but not to lie next to me! He has never forgotten Dan telling him to get down. He is SO sensitive!!!


They really do sound a LOT alike. (Must be something in the name. lol.) My Gunner is the same way during storms. He has to be ON me and he just sits there, shivering and pawing at me like he expects me to make it stop. 




Kimm said:


> Sounds like Stephanie is on the mark. I remember when we had to work on reconditioning with Tucker. He was sound sensitive and whenever he thought a smoke alarm might go off or did, he'd nearly jump through the glass on our backdoor to get away from the noise. A trainer who works with dogs for the deaf helped us a lot. It's work, but it works, but not as quickly as you may like.


Gunner is the same way with the smoke detector. The one in our old kitchen was SO sensitive, even steam from the stovetop would set it off. He got to a point where he'd start shivering if I turned the exhaust fan on. He was anticipating the alarm.
I don't mind the work. We may have to figure out a way for one of us to be here with him, and not leave him completely alone, until we start making some progress. But I don't mind putting the work in.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Loisiana said:


> Honestly, I'd use the collar. You've gotten great advice on the forum but they all take time, and that's not really something you have. A few quick corrections, while not pleasant, aren't really painful either, and then you can put the problem behind you.I'd also get a crate. Don't just lock him up in there immediately and leave. The first few days just feed him his dinner in there with the door open. Then shut the door while he's in there chewing on something he really likes (bully stick or something). Then do the same while you go into another room. Then you can work up to leaving the house.


Yeah, that's the problem - time. I don't mind putting the work into it and I know it's going to take time. So far, we've been able to juggle things so that one of us is here with him all the time. If we get into a situation where he has to be left here alone, before the training really starts to work, we might have to think about the collar.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

With all the different anxiety problems you're describing, I'd contact a veterinary behaviorist. He may well need pharmaceutical help to work through it, but odds are, a traditional vet isn't well-versed enough in behavior to be Rx-ing the best meds. See if you can get in touch with this person in Ohio:

http://dacvb.org/about-us/diplomates/diplomate-directory/?tx_newloginbox_pi3[showUid]=55

Proper meds may be your only hope for a humane "quick-ish fix". IMO, corrections are definitely not the way to go. If anything, you may temporarily supress the symptom, but it won't do much to address the root of the behavior and may very likely backfire later on.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

It did take time for Tucker to not be so fearful of the smoke alarm. What Stephanie mentions about corrections makes a lot of sense. We had to make "everything" surrounding and leading up to the possible sound of the alarm, including placing a pot or pan on the burner, or the smell of something burning off the coil, a "positive" experience. All while not over-reacting if he over-reacted. We actually did a lot of work outdoors with the alarm going off inside. 

I hope the link Stephanie posted helps. Stephanie is an awesome trainer from what I've read and seen over the years.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Kimm said:


> I hope the link Stephanie posted helps. Stephanie is an awesome trainer from what I've read and seen over the years.


Awww, thanks for the positive reinforcement, Kim!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> With all the different anxiety problems you're describing, I'd contact a veterinary behaviorist. He may well need pharmaceutical help to work through it, but odds are, a traditional vet isn't well-versed enough in behavior to be Rx-ing the best meds. See if you can get in touch with this person in Ohio:
> 
> http://dacvb.org/about-us/diplomates/diplomate-directory/?tx_newloginbox_pi3[showUid]=55
> 
> Proper meds may be your only hope for a humane "quick-ish fix". IMO, corrections are definitely not the way to go. If anything, you may temporarily supress the symptom, but it won't do much to address the root of the behavior and may very likely backfire later on.


I wrote down her contact info. Thanks!

I don't want to say it, because I know the minute I do we'll be back to square one, but it seems like he's getting a little better when I take Riley out. I've been putting Gunner in mom's room with a baby gate and taking Riley out about twenty times a day. (Riley's looking at me like I've lost my mind.) I'm staying close enough that I can hear if Gunner does bark, but not close enough for him to know that I'm right outside. I'm not hearing any barking. There's whining when I walk away from the gate and whining when we come back inside... but no barking. 
I'm not staying out there very long - we're up to about 5-7 minutes now. I don't want to push it and stay out for too long, too soon. But five minutes is pretty good, I think! It doesn't sound like much, but he'd been barking his head off the minute he heard the back door close, so for him to be controlling himself for 5-7 minutes is huge, I think. Especially considering that that's always been the worst situation for him - (my leaving with Riley and him being here completely alone.)
Baby steps.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't know how others feel, but having them succeed as often as possible is the way to go. Sometimes it seems like you have to start all over again if they regress by pushing too quickly.

You are welcome Stephanie. I always said I would love to attend your classes, but I live on the right coast! I will never forget the lady with the walker video!!!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Kimm said:


> I don't know how others feel, but having them succeed as often as possible is the way to go. Sometimes it seems like you have to start all over again if they regress by pushing too quickly.


I agree! If I stay out there too long and he would start barking, I think it would be a big setback. Especially since I couldn't just wait him out and come back in once he settled down again. I'd have to give in. All that would tell him is "I bark and mom comes back." Not good!

Now this morning, he did bark twice while I was outside with Riley, but it was right after we went out and that was it. Two barks and he quieted down. :crossfing


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

WoW!! You are definitely on the right track. You deserve a BIG pat on the back for your efforts!

I agree that keeping it short and gradually increasing so you are successful is the key. It may be a long process but the end result will be worth it.

Keep up the good work!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

BayBeams said:


> WoW!! You are definitely on the right track. You deserve a BIG pat on the back for your efforts!


Thank you, but I don't think I do. I'm doing nothing more than anyone else who's trying to keep their dog would do.

Thought I'd give you guys a quick update:

MAJOR progress today! 
Mom had to take me to a doctor's appointment this morning. (****** kidney stones again. Ugh.) She had to go with me, because we just have the one car and we didn't know if they were going to admit me or not. Obviously, they didn't. But, it meant that we had to go off and leave the boys alone for a couple hours. I was really nervous about what Gunner would be doing while we were gone and.... he was an angel!!

I put a small area rug down over that carpet seam, held down by the baby gate, so that he couldn't do any more damage. When I came home, I could tell that he hadn't been scratching at it, at all. No new scratches on the wall. Nothing. He might have barked while we were gone (and if he did, I'm sure we'll hear about it) but I really don't think he did. He was quiet when we left and most of his barking usually happens AS we're leaving and just carries on from there. I don't think he starts after we've been gone a while. We stood outside the door for a few minutes and didn't hear anything. Did the same thing when we came back home. Didn't hear a sound. So I really think he was quiet while we were gone!

Granted, Riley was here with him, where Gunner could see him (that always helps) but still... it was the first time that mom and I had gone off together and left him since we moved in here. 

I did kinda blow it when we came home, though. lol. I know I'm not supposed to make a big deal of it when I return, but I couldn't help it. He didn't even bark when I came in the door, so I had to make a big fuss over him and tell him what a good boy he is and how proud I am.

I really thought it was going to be bad, too. I had gotten ready to go and then went back in the living room to sit down for a while, so he didn't get too worked up before we left. He was sitting in the chair with me, with his paw on my shoulder, like "No. You stay here." I was really afraid he'd have a complete meltdown when I left, but he was so good! I'm so proud of my boy.

I can't believe he did so well! I was dreading what we might come home to.
We still have a lot of work to do. We're going to keep working on it, like we have been. I don't want to let up now and have him revert right back again. And I fully expect a setback or two, here or there. There might be days when he's just in a mood and that's fine - we'll deal with it. But with the progress I'm seeing, I know it's do-able. 

And now, I'm heading back to the couch and my heating pad. Just had to give you guys the good news!


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

It is wonderful that Gunner is progressing so well! 

I hope you feel better soon.


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

That is great news! Keep it up Gunner! It is hard being a silly shepherd! Hope you are ok soon.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

That is wonderful news about Gunner. Now you get better soon too.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Thanks, everyone. I'm feeling a little bit better. Still a little yucky, but it's better than it was. 

I dragged my behind out of the house again Saturday and he was just as good! There's still a lot of fussing and whining as I'm leaving, but I'm not terribly concerned about that right now. I'd like to get him to a point where he's completely calm and quiet, just so he won't get himself worked up so much that it might progress to barking again. But for now, I'm thrilled with the progress.

We haven't heard anything, so I'm pretty sure he was quiet while we were gone. I think we'd have heard by now if he wasn't. So at least I know that Friday wasn't just a fluke.
Another interesting thing is that he'll take a treat now, before I leave. I was real happy to see that. He won't take a treat when he's upset, so it tells me that he's feeling better about it.

I'm starting to think that the one trainer might have been right and this might not be true, textbook separation anxiety. It sure seems like it is, but if it were really _true_ SA, I don't think we'd be making progress this quickly, would we?


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

Perhaps it wasn't so much an SA problem but just being nervous about the new house/changes.

Glad he is improving.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Gunner*

So glad to hear Gunner is doing better!!!

I might have missed it, but why do you separate Riley and Gunner?

If they can be together it might help.

My Samoyed Snobear is 10 years old and whenever we leave the house he barks. I'm sure he stops within a minute or two after we're gone. I think it's his way of saying: Don't leave or I want to come ,too.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Lisa_and_Willow. said:


> Perhaps it wasn't so much an SA problem but just being nervous about the new house/changes.
> 
> Glad he is improving.


That's what I'm thinking. I've never heard of true SA improving this quickly. I imagine it's possible (we've been working hard) but I would think it'd take a lot longer to see improvement if it were actual SA.




Karen519 said:


> So glad to hear Gunner is doing better!!!
> I might have missed it, but why do you separate Riley and Gunner?
> If they can be together it might help.


Thanks!
They're separated when we leave because they tend to play pretty rough if they get on a roll - wrestling matches, chasing each other in full zoomie mode, spring-boarding off the couch, etc. I don't want that getting out of hand when no one's here. I worry about an accidental injury more than anything, but Gunner has been known to get snarky if Riley unintentionally hurts him. (It's all fun and games until Gunner gets a paw in the ear. LOL.) He hasn't given anything more than a warning in a LONG time, but I don't think it's a good idea to take a chance on it escalating when nobody's here to step in.
We only use baby gates, though, so when they're here alone they can see each other.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Lisa and willow*

Lisa and Willow

In my humble opinion, I think that Gunner is reacting to the move-it can be extremely stressful on a dog.

Also, I have this feeling that the barking might be that they want to be together.

Don't rule out crates if they keep chewing on things.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Karen519 said:


> Lisa and Willow
> 
> In my humble opinion, I think that Gunner is reacting to the move-it can be extremely stressful on a dog.
> 
> ...


No, no... Gunner's fine if he and Riley are left here alone, even though they're separated. He'll whine a little when we leave, but that's nothing new - he's always done that. Other than that, no problem at all now.

What Gunner still doesn't like is when it's Riley's turn for a hike and he's left here completely alone. He's gotten much better - no barking, no destruction... but he fusses quite a bit and he'll paw at the gate while we're gone. 
I think it's just a matter of time. I agree that the move was harder on him than I expected it to be. He's an extremely sensitive dog. He doesn't just roll with it like Riley does.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

We had a bad weekend. It seems like Gunner took one step forward and three back.

It started Friday evening when I had him out for a quick potty break. We have a yard area outside our unit, where the boys usually take care of business, but it's not private. An older woman came along, walking her little toy poodle. They were a good fifty/sixty feet away from us, at least. Well, Gunner started barking and lunged at the other dog. It was all I could do to hold him. I finally got him to sit as they started walking farther away, but he was barking the whole time and gave a couple growls. I felt so bad about it - that woman looked like she was scared to death and, honestly, I can't blame her. If I saw a GSD barking and lunging at us like that, I'm pretty sure my heart rate would go up a few notches, too. I yelled a quick "sorry" while I was trying to hang on to him. She sort of nodded, but didn't say anything. 
I didn't want to overreact about it. I wasn't looking in their direction at first, so I thought that maybe (_maybe_) the poodle gave some kind of body language that set Gunner off. 

Saturday morning, we took him for his hike, came back to take Riley and while we were gone, he got to the blinds again. I had a storage ottoman on top of a cedar chest in front of the window to keep him away from them. He knocked it down and bent one side of the blinds back. And we heard him barking when we were coming back. We were far enough away, yet, that he couldn't have known we were coming back, so it wasn't just excitement because of that. 

We then had to run some errands and whatnot, which I wasn't worried about, because he'd been so good when Riley was here with him. Not this time. He tore the hell out of an area rug that I'd had down over the carpet seam to protect _it _from further damage and ****** near had the gate pulled down by the time we came home. And we weren't gone very long. He was so stressed when we came home, that it took him a good hour to calm down. He glued himself to me and just whined until he eventually settled down.

So fast forward to this morning when I took him out and he lunged at a Puggle. Apparently, the thing with the Poodle wasn't a fluke - the Puggle wasn't even looking at him. I had his front-clip harness on and it was all I could do to hold on to him.
I think I know what this particular wrinkle is about. Gunner has NEVER been aggressive with other dogs (yeah, he and Riley had their tiffs, but it wasn't "aggression" and Gunner wasn't doing anything really 'wrong' - he was just setting the ground rules.) He has, though, always been extremely territorial. I think he sees our yard area as _his_ yard now, and he doesn't like strange dogs being in his yard. I'm afraid that this is going to be a huge problem. I can't have him trying to go after other dogs. And because of it, I'm the only one who can take him out now. If he were to pull that crap with mom, I really don't know if she could hold him. 

He won't go into a crate. I tried coaxing him with food and he'll have no part of it. And what I'm afraid of is that if he claws at a baby gate like he does, trying to get out of the bedroom, he'll do the same thing in a crate if I could get him to go in one. He'll hurt himself trying to claw his way out. 

So I'm just at my wit's end right about now. I don't know what to do with him. I had called that veterinary behaviorist at Ohio State and got voicemail, so I'm going to try again this morning. I have a call in to my vet, too, so we'll see what they say. I'm just totally frustrated. He was doing so good - I thought we were turning the corner, but apparently not.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Did you try the melatonin?

I am so sorry he has taken steps back. It is so frustrating! Wish they could talk!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Oh gosh, I'm so sorry to hear about this. You must be so worried and discouraged now. That makes sense about Gunner being territorial which would become more apparent with a shared space. I have no idea how you will deal with that 

Just wanted you to know that I'm still following your thread. I'm rooting for Gunner, and you! Hang in there.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Debles said:


> Did you try the melatonin?
> 
> I am so sorry he has taken steps back. It is so frustrating! Wish they could talk!


Can't. At least not yet, since he's still on the Clomipramine. I guess the Clomipramine is a tricyclic (??) and could interact badly with melatonin.

But I'm taking him off the Clomicalm. I mean, it's obviously not helping. I know it takes a while to kick in, but we should be seeing _some_ effects by now and we're not.

Thanks, JoEllen. Yeah, I'm getting pretty discouraged at this point. If it were one problem or two problems, we could deal with it. But with all of this combined, in this environment, I don't know how we're going to tackle it.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

The continuing saga... (lol)

I swear, this dog is determined to baffle me.
Took him out for a walk after his dinner last night and as we were cutting through "his yard" we were approached by a black lab who had gotten away from her owner. 

I see this dog coming towards us, dragging a leash behind her with no owner in sight and thought we might have a problem. I wound Gunner's leash around my arm and told him to sit. He put his butt on the ground and didn't move. He sat there, perfectly still, not a peep out of him - nothing! He sat there like a statue as the other dog crept a little closer. I saw that her hackles were up, so that made me a little nervous, but still no reaction from Gunner. It was probably about fifteen seconds (felt more like fifteen minutes!) before her owner came running up and grabbed her leash. 
The woman was apologizing like crazy. I told her it was okay, don't worry about it, etc., then she started commenting on how beautiful Gunner is and how well-behaved. (Ha!) All this time, he never moved a muscle. He just sat there being Mr. Reliable, not reacting at all. I couldn't get over it. That was the "old" Gunner again! 
He's determined to baffle me.

I spoke to my vet yesterday and she wants to try a few things for the separation anxiety before we think about trying a different medication. She's not wild about drugging him and she knows I'm not, either. 
She suggested that I try the DAP plug-in diffuser thingie. I'd been a little skeptical about it doing any good, but she said it's really not hokey and while it won't help every dog, she's seen it work. I guess she's used it with a couple of her rescue "messes" and it has helped. I ordered one online, so we'll see.
She also wants me to workout in one of my t-shirts, get it good and smelly (lol) and put that on him when I leave. I guess it's a cheaper version of those comfort wrap things and again, she said she's seen them help. 
I have to find a backpack for him, too, that I can put a little weight in to get more out of our walks. I told her that I can't tire him out - all I can do is take the edge off - especially now that his exercise has to be on-leash. So we're going to have him carry a little weight to _try_ and tire him out before I leave the house.
She also wants me to go ahead and have him neutered. She said it probably won't do much for him - it's not going to change who he is - but it might take a little bit of the edge off and, combined with the other things, might help. He's getting to the age where it'll have to be done anyway to avoid prostate problems, so we might as well go ahead and do it.

So, if we keep at it and try some different things, hopefully we'll make some progress. :crossfing


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Oh good, you have quite a few new ideas, that's great! Keep the hope, something's going to work


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> Oh good, you have quite a few new ideas, that's great! Keep the hope, something's going to work


It has to. He's not going anywhere, so we just have to keep at it and do whatever it takes.

She feels that we kinda have a double-edged sword, here. 99% of the problems are happening because he's too clingy and too attached to me. That's the downside. The upside, she thinks, is that because we DO have one hell of a bond, if we do it right, we can work _with_ it. And she's willing to help every step of the way, as much as she can. It's funny that she's suggesting things that neither of the trainers, or the behaviorist, came up with. I'm not used to a vet being that helpful! But she's involved in rescue, so she's dealt with her share of "problem children." lol.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I love your vet


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> I love your vet


So do I! I thought I was lucky to have found her _before_ all this. Now I'm even more thankful.

I have to think of something I can do to thank her. All the advice she's been giving me has been over the phone - she's not charging me a penny for it and just yesterday, alone, we were talking for a good half hour. She really goes above and beyond!


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

It is great that you have some options. I think he likes to keep you confused!

When I first brought Willow home I had a DAP collar that I put on her for the first 3 weeks because it was advertised as helping new pups settle in. The trouble is I don't know if the collar helped at all or if she was an easy puppy because of her personality!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Lisa_and_Willow. said:


> It is great that you have some options. I think he likes to keep you confused!
> 
> When I first brought Willow home I had a DAP collar that I put on her for the first 3 weeks because it was advertised as helping new pups settle in. The trouble is I don't know if the collar helped at all or if she was an easy puppy because of her personality!


I really think he does. This boy likes to keep me on my toes! 
I'm hoping that DAP thing will at least help. At the very least, it certainly can't hurt so it's worth trying.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Thought I'd come back to this and post a follow-up.

I'm thrilled beyond belief to say that Gunner is doing very well here, now! I wouldn't say that we've "cured" his separation anxiety - not by a longshot - but it has gotten much, much better.
He's still not wild about it when I leave to take Riley for his walk, and he's left here completely alone, but he's settling down quickly. He'll fuss and whine a bit and will bark a couple times when he hears the back door close, but that's it. Just a couple barks and then he's quiet.
On the weekends, when we leave both boys at home to go do the shopping or whatever, he's fine. Again, he'll whine and fuss a little bit when we're getting ready to leave, but he's not barking. And apparently he's not barking while we're gone either, because no one has complained about it. No more pawing at the blinds, no more tearing up the carpeting, nothing. 
He still gets a little manic when I return home, but he's taken it down a notch to just jumping all over me, whining and crying and trying to lick half my face off. At least it's not the frantic barking anymore, so I consider it progress!

He's completely used to seeing other dogs in "his" yard now, has realized that it's the new normal and is fairly non-reactive again, so I'm thrilled about that! He hasn't over reacted to another dog since the last time I posted about it, and we see them virtually every time we go outside.

He hasn't been able to socialize here as much as I'd hoped he could. Most people seem to be afraid of him, despite the fact that he walks calmly at my side paying no attention to anyone. (Unlike most of the other dogs around here!) They'll stop and chat when I have Riley out, but when I have Gunner, they go the other direction. One guy, whose Doodle was barking, growling and lunging at another dog five minutes earlier, actually had the nerve to ask me if Gunner was safe to walk past. Gunner was sitting at my side, paying no attention to him OR his untrained dog, but he had to imply that I have a big, scary beast on that leash. 

He's made friends, ironically, with the little puggle that he reacted to. Her owner isn't bothered by him at all. And today he met a teacup Yorkie that he seemed to be quite taken with, so at least not everyone is terrified of him. There's a young couple here with a cute little female Pit that he might be able to socialize with, too. They aren't allowed here, but she seems very well-behaved, calm and sweet, so I don't much care. I've seen people give them the same treatment, with the about-face and head the other direction when they see her coming, so they might appreciate the chance to socialize.

But all in all, it's going very well!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I am so happy to hear that. I've been rooting for Gunner all along, was wondering how it's going for him.

Big kudos to you for sticking with him, too. You're amazing! :heartbeat


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

How wonderful!! I am SO happy for you and Gunner!!!
That idiot who acts like Gunner is dangerous is a moron!
He is beautiful and am so relieved he has calmed down!!! YAY!


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

That is just WONDERFUL news!!  Sorry those people are treating you and Gunner like that, but pay them no mind! Im so happy for you!!!


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

A huge well done to you Deni!! I could only imagine who stressful the whole situation was for you but you never gave up on your boy as so many would have.

I understand your problem with other people. I have a family that live a few doors down from me and if the little girl is outside when I walk past with the dogs she actually SCREAMS and starts shouting 'the dogs are out!' The parents grab their children and run inside. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

I used to get really upset by the amount of people who would cross the road or make nasty comments but I'm ok now. Just this morning I had a lovely walk with a little terrier and an elderly man who was giving Diesel lots of love  

There are people out their who don't judge by breed, you just have to look past the morons to find them.

Good luck and kisses to Gunner.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> I am so happy to hear that. I've been rooting for Gunner all along, was wondering how it's going for him.
> 
> Big kudos to you for sticking with him, too. You're amazing! :heartbeat


Thank you, but no - it's definitely not me! I think Gunner is the amazing one. If I hadn't screwed up and let him become such a big mama's boy in the first place, we wouldn't have had a problem. I'm very lucky that he's willing to learn and grow enough to overcome my mistakes. 
He's certainly an odd one, though. He's the "easiest" and the most challenging dog I've ever had, all at the same time! :



Debles said:


> How wonderful!! I am SO happy for you and Gunner!!!
> That idiot who acts like Gunner is dangerous is a moron!
> He is beautiful and am so relieved he has calmed down!!! YAY!


LOL. Yeah, I pretty much told him that. Though, not in so many words. I just said "Well, he's not the one lunging and growling here, so yeah -- I'd say it's fine." I probably could have been nicer, but it caught me off guard and annoyed me. Didn't have time for that filter between my brain and my mouth to kick in! 



amy22 said:


> That is just WONDERFUL news!!  Sorry those people are treating you and Gunner like that, but pay them no mind! Im so happy for you!!!


You know, I was telling my dad about the way people avoid him and he made me see that it might be a good thing. He pointed out that since most of the other dogs here are ill-mannered and untrained, it might be better for Gunner if they DO keep them away. Like he said, let one of these dogs jump at Gunner or something and let him stand up for himself. Regardless of what the other dog might have done, Gunner would probably get the "aggressive" label because he's a GSD. And after talking to him, I think he's right. Let them stay away from us. That way, we can watch for a while and decide which dogs and which people will be okay for him to interact with (and which ones to stay away from.) 



Lisa_and_Willow said:


> A huge well done to you Deni!! I could only imagine who stressful the whole situation was for you but you never gave up on your boy as so many would have.
> 
> I understand your problem with other people. I have a family that live a few doors down from me and if the little girl is outside when I walk past with the dogs she actually SCREAMS and starts shouting 'the dogs are out!' The parents grab their children and run inside. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
> 
> ...


Nope - giving up on my boy was never really an option. It was pretty stressful there for a while, but Gunner and I have been through _way_ too much together. Just another bump in the road. LOL.
And I agree - that would be funny if it weren't sad. I just can't stand the looks that Gunner gives me when people avoid him. I know he probably senses the fear and he doesn't understand it. He always looks completely bewildered - like he thinks he did something wrong, but doesn't know what. It makes me sad for him. And then I get angry.
I know that some people are just leery of German Shepherds and I try to understand that, but it's not always easy. 
I've been running through some basic, random obedience when I have him out, thinking that maybe people will see that and realize that he's perfectly under control and, for the most part, pretty well-trained.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Gunner*

I am so very HAPPY FOR GUNNER and you that he is doing so much better!!

Moving is very stressful for a dog. I know=we've been through it.

I haven't read all of your threads, but do Riley and Gunner not get along?
In what way?

Did you try that medication for Gunner?


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Karen519 said:


> I am so very HAPPY FOR GUNNER and you that he is doing so much better!!
> 
> Moving is very stressful for a dog. I know=we've been through it.
> 
> ...


Thanks!
No, Riley and Gunner get along fine. They went through a rough patch about a year and a half ago, when Riley was reaching maturity. We got through it and now they get along great 99.9% of the time. They'll get a little snarky with each other every now and then, but it's not a big deal and nothing out of the ordinary. There's only one situation that can lead to trouble, so we just avoid that situation and it's all good.

The move was a lot more difficult for Gunner than I thought it would be. He's always been very clingy with me, but the move really sent him into a tailspin there for a while.

No, we didn't try any other medication for him. We had him on the Clomipramine for while, but it didn't seem to be doing anything so we took him off. We bought one of those DAP plug-in diffusers. (Whether it's doing anything or not, I don't know...??) But we decided that we'd keep working with him, increase his exercise even more and give him a little more time before we thought about different medications. Something, or a maybe a combination of everything, seems to be working.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Deni, you do have to give yourself some credit here. You stuck with him, you went the distance. A lot of dog owners would not have done that. You did


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> Deni, you do have to give yourself some credit here. You stuck with him, you went the distance. A lot of dog owners would not have done that. You did


Okay, I won't take any credit for standing by him, because that's my job. 
But I'll accept a pat on the back for pulling it off; for actually being able to make the training work. I was afraid that overcoming separation distress was a little beyond my training capabilities. It really has been a confidence booster for me.

And you know, I'll bet that has a lot to do with his progress, too. Once we got through that bad weekend, with all the setbacks, and I started to see some real progress, I became more confident. I was calm when I'd leave him because I fully expected him to be good. Not like before, where I'd try to ACT calm, but was thinking "Oh god... what is he going to do while I'm gone?" I'm sure he feels that and it's made him more confident, too.
Hm... I'll bet that's what my vet had in mind when she talked about working _with_ the bond, instead of trying to overcome it. I think I'm just now starting to completely understand what she meant.


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