# Hey, does anyone know...



## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I believe in the US the WC and WCX are meant to be marking tests, so blinds are not required. They're supposed to test natural ability. I know the CKC WC/X are more like the hunt tests levels, since the Canadian WC is singles instead of doubles. Also, the rules are different for each retriever breed. The parent club sets the rules. The labs run singles instead of doubles in the WC. I think CKC has the same tests for all retriever breeds. 

I'm hoping to run Maisey in a CKC WC in two weeks. I'm pretty bummed that I can't just skip the WC and run WCI.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I believe in the US the WC and WCX are meant to be marking tests, so blinds are not required. They're supposed to test natural ability. I know the CKC WC/X are more like the hunt tests levels, since the Canadian WC is singles instead of doubles. Also, the rules are different for each retriever breed. The parent club sets the rules. The labs run singles instead of doubles in the WC. I think CKC has the same tests for all retriever breeds.
> 
> I'm hoping to run Maisey in a CKC WC in two weeks. I'm pretty bummed that I can't just skip the WC and run WCI.


Yes, you're right. It is run by the CKC, and for all retrievers (and poodles, I believe), rather than by the GRCC. And while the WC is meant to test natural abilities, the WCI and especially the WCX are much harder. But the CKC also runs Hunt Tests for retrievers (and spaniels and poodles), so I wonder why they make the WC/I/X program so similar. The Canadian WCX is almost identical to an SH. The SH requires an upland hunt. 

In the GRCA system, would I be able to just enter Shala in the WCX without her first earning the WC?


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I believe in the US the WC and WCX are meant to be marking tests, so blinds are not required. They're supposed to test natural ability. I know the CKC WC/X are more like the hunt tests levels, since the Canadian WC is singles instead of doubles. Also, the rules are different for each retriever breed. The parent club sets the rules. The labs run singles instead of doubles in the WC. I think CKC has the same tests for all retriever breeds.
> 
> I'm hoping to run Maisey in a CKC WC in two weeks. I'm pretty bummed that I can't just skip the WC and run WCI.


Where were you planning to bring her for the WC test? If it's close by, maybe we'll come cheer you on!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I believe you can run the WCX without a WC but I am not sure. You can enter both in one day like I did. 

Some people are saying the US WC should be singles because a double is trained and not indicative of natural ability. 

I'm going to the Fraser Valley RTC event in Aldergrove BC. I think that is quite a distance from you


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I believe you can run the WCX without a WC but I am not sure. You can enter both in one day like I did.
> 
> Some people are saying the US WC should be singles because a double is trained and not indicative of natural ability.
> 
> *I'm going to the Fraser Valley RTC event in Aldergrove BC. I think that is quite a distance from you*


Ah. Indeed. 

That would be fun to do a WC and WCX in one day. So, did you do the WC land, and if you passed, you were allowed to do the WCX land, and then same with water? Or do they do the full WC test and then the full WCX test? Ours are generally all three in one day - but they'll do the WC-WCI-WCX land, take a break, and then flip it and do the WCX-WCI-WC water.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Sweet Girl said:


> Ah. Indeed.
> 
> That would be fun to do a WC and WCX in one day. So, did you do the WC land, and if you passed, you were allowed to do the WCX land, and then same with water? Or do they do the full WC test and then the full WCX test? Ours are generally all three in one day - but they'll do the WC-WCI-WCX land, take a break, and then flip it and do the WCX-WCI-WC water.


That is also how it was done, so Maisey technically got her WCX before her WC. I'm not sure what would've happened if she didn't pass the WC. 

Be aware if you do enter two tests in one day -- your dog might be extremely amped and more difficult to manage by the third and fourth series! That wasn't something I had previously considered.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Sweet Girl, here's the other interesting thing about WC's in the US, they are different for every breed. I like your CKC WC being the standard for all retriever breeds in Canada. In the US, the Labrador WC is a joke. Every breed WC is very different. It would make sense to have 1 standard for all breeds and have the AKC administer the test across the board for retrievers. But here in the states, AKC left it up to the breed clubs to write the test and administer it. 


On the doubles versus singles, I think doubles are also innate. I don't think you have to do much training for it. Especially since the distances for the GRCA WC is relatively short. I'm sure most of us have had baby puppies that figured out doubles pretty easily. I think the teaching of "hold" and "drop or give" are not as innate (just my opinion).


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I think a double is essential, it tests for a really valuable skill : MEMORY! 
Now a single can test memory in theory....a really long, difficult single. Which takes a lot of training. Back to catch 22.

You can run the WC/WCX out of order and on the same day in the US but not Canada. I'm headed to Ontario next week for the national and had to put Bally in the WC!


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Alaska7133 said:


> Sweet Girl, here's the other interesting thing about WC's in the US, they are different for every breed. I like your CKC WC being the standard for all retriever breeds in Canada. In the US, the Labrador WC is a joke. Every breed WC is very different. It would make sense to have 1 standard for all breeds and have the AKC administer the test across the board for retrievers. But here in the states, AKC left it up to the breed clubs to write the test and administer it.
> 
> 
> On the doubles versus singles, I think doubles are also innate. I don't think you have to do much training for it. Especially since the distances for the GRCA WC is relatively short. I'm sure most of us have had baby puppies that figured out doubles pretty easily. I think the teaching of "hold" and "drop or give" are not as innate (just my opinion).


Oh, that IS strange that the U.S. Lab and Golden WCs are different! It must come down to sheer numbers. There are probably as many Golden Retrievers in the U.S. as there are ALL retrievers in Canada. So the CKC was able to bunch them together. I guess in that case, they tried to come up with a set of tests that would demonstrate basic ability in all for the WC, and maybe that's why we have a WCI as well as a WCX. 

And I agree - "hold" and "drop" (returning to hand) require far more training than a simple double. Especially if the double in the U.S. WC doesn't need to be steady? (I'm unsure of that). The Canadian WC can be done on leash; at the WCI, you must demonstrate steadiness from the time you leave the blind, through both doubles and a land honour.



K9-Design said:


> I think a double is essential, it tests for a really valuable skill : MEMORY!
> Now a single can test memory in theory....a really long, difficult single. Which takes a lot of training. Back to catch 22.
> 
> You can run the WC/WCX out of order and on the same day in the US but not Canada. I'm headed to Ontario next week for the national and had to put Bally in the WC!


Oh, you're coming to the National? I might head out to watch! Oh, scratch that. Just seeing that the WC is on the Monday. I have to work. Good luck!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

When our field trainer evaluates an untrained dog he includes a double in the evaluation. He, too, feels its more of an inate skill to understand there is another retrieve out there and remember where it is. Better skill is trained later, the understanding of the concept is more inate.
I think the hardest part of a WC for a lot of dogs can be the painfully short marks. Dogs who are used to running 150+ yard marks can have a hard time checking up at 40 yards. Dogs who are inclined to break can also have a harder time with really short marks.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Back to back singles in water are pretty important too. It tests the willingness of the dog to re-enter water.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

gdgli said:


> Back to back singles in water are pretty important too. It tests the willingness of the dog to re-enter water.


Never thought of that, as I have a dog who would set up home in the water if she could.  

But I do see dogs who are reluctant to get in the water, or who get out as soon as possible and cheat by running the shoreline back, so that makes sense.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

gdgli said:


> Back to back singles in water are pretty important too. It tests the willingness of the dog to re-enter water.


That is so interesting. It has always seemed to me that some dogs that don't like water have difficulty with the first entry but have no issues with subsequent entries. Isn't that why some people wet their dogs before the water series at a hunt test? 

Recently I have seen on in-out-in-out marks where the dog has no problem getting in for the first swim, but has trouble going back in for the second swim to continue on to the mark. I wonder if that is a confidence or a water issue, or both.


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