# Alternatives to spay?



## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

OK this may be just a wacko concern. With the recommendations of waiting as long as possible for spay/neuter on goldens, has anyone ever considered getting their girl's tubes tied, instead of a full spay (hysterectomy)? Yes, we'd still have to deal with the bleeding, and would want to keep males from attempting to breed and tie (that can be dangerous, right?), but without the need to fully restrict her outside time. It probably is stupid, but I've been thinking of it and decided to ask what others thought.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I think there are some vets that just remove the ovaries. IDK if that is the same as tying the tubes.


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

I understand your concerns, but spaying at a young age has minimal risk. I've always had my females spay done at 6 months and other than trying to keep them quiet for a week or so, it wasn't a big deal.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Willow52 said:


> I understand your concerns, but spaying at a young age has minimal risk. I've always had my females spay done at 6 months and other than trying to keep them quiet for a week or so, it wasn't a big deal.


The latest research indicates that the incidence of cancer is lower if a female goes through at least one heat. She is in heat now, and we'll probably spay before her second heat. The same research also says spaying after the second heat has some adverse impact on cancer rates, I think mostly mammary. I wonder if that is tied to actually having babies though.

My concern is not so much if getting her spayed is a big deal, but how can I do the best thing for her health?


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I'm not sure I'm understanding your concern with spaying. I was under the impression that it was going through the second heat that caused the risk for mammary cancers, not the spaying. So by that understanding you'd want to spay before the second heat in order to avoid the increased risk for cancer. Not spaying, and allowing the dog to go into heat more than twice would make the risks even greater.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

I think you can kind of go crazy trying to figure out all the statistics. I can tell you that we have had two females who were spayed prior to the first heat. Both lived to be 14+ with no health problems along the way. Also, they both recovered from the surgery very easily.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

This is a timely question, as I've been pondering the same. My options are a traditional spay or removal of just the ovaries. There's a repro vet in my area who advocates for removing only the ovaries because the surgery is minimally invasive and recovery is shorter than a traditional spay. She says that since the sex hormones are removed, there are no more heat cycles and no risk for pyometra since this is caused by hormonal fluctuations.


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

I'd still be worried about Pyo... It is best just to get the spay done, IMO. I'm not sure if your girl has already gone through a heat cycle yet or not, but something to consider before getting it done.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Here's a previous thread discussing partial spays if you haven't seen it already.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...ology-breed-standard/138690-partial-spay.html


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

KeaColorado said:


> This is a timely question, as I've been pondering the same. My options are a traditional spay or removal of just the ovaries. There's a repro vet in my area who advocates for removing only the ovaries because the surgery is minimally invasive and recovery is shorter than a traditional spay. She says that since the sex hormones are removed, there are no more heat cycles and no risk for pyometra since this is caused by hormonal fluctuations.


Huh. I was reading that Pyo came when bacteria managed to get in the uterus and festered there. 

No I was half right. 



> Pyometra is a result of hormonal and structural changes in the uterus lining. This can happen at any age, whether she has bred or not, and whether it is her 1st or 10th heat (although it becomes more common as the dog gets older). The main risk period for a female is for eight weeks after her peak standing heat (or estrous cycle) has ended.[1] Normally during this period, the cervix, which was open during her heat, begins to close, and the inner lining begins to adapt back to normal. However, cystic hyperplasia of the endometrium (inner lining of the uterus) – known as cystic endometrial hyperplasia (CEH) – may occur at this time for some animals, as an inappropriate response to progesterone.
> Under these circumstances, bacteria (especially E. coli) that have migrated from the vagina into the uterus find the environment favorable to growth, especially since progesterone also causes mucus secretion, closes the cervix (preventing uterine drainage), and decreases uterine contractility.[2] The condition of the cervix is a major factor in the severity of the condition.
> If the cervix is open, the infected material can leave the body, and this is far easier and safer to treat. This is known as open pyometra.
> If the cervix is fully closed, there is no discharge from the vulva, and like in appendicitis, the uterus may rupture and pus escapes into the abdomen, causing peritonitis and possible rapid death. This is known as closed pyometra.[3]


 Source


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## katieai (Oct 19, 2013)

PLOS ONE: Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers

Here's a link to the study published in February 2013 regarding the effect of neutering/spaying on joint disorders and cancers.

The significant findings are that for females, early spaying (defined as before 1 year) produces an 8% increase in CCL. Late spaying produces an hemangiosarcoma rate 4 times higher than intact or early spayed females. Not an easy choice, but at least CCL is treatable.

An option I've heard about is "ovary sparing" spay in which only the uterus is removed. This leaves the ovaries intact to produce the hormones. Downside are risk of mammary tumors and finding a vet competent to remove all of the uterus to eliminate the risk of pyometra. Here is the link.

The Pros of Partial Spay | IVC Journal

I'm getting my female pup in a few weeks and still considering the options. Any more thoughts?

Thanks!


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Wow, thanks everyone. Lots of good discussion has already taken place, excellent! I'm looking forward to more comments. I may try to find a repro vet to discuss this with. Although I have NO idea how to even find one, I suppose talking to my vet would be the first step.


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## Goodtimegoldens (Feb 15, 2014)

I have shown and bred Goldens for over 30 years. Because I am a breeder, many of my girls have not been spayed until they are 5 or 6. I have had no incidence of spay incontinence and I've had a relatively low number of cancers. I have seen a lot of research indicating that sex hormones are protective in dogs both male and female for Hemengio Sarcoma and for Osteosarcoma in males. The next spay that I do I am going to remove the uterus but leave the ovaries. With the uterus removed there is no possibility of Pyometria, a serious infection of the uterus, but the overies still produce hormones. 


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I'm very interested in the ovary sparing surgery but do understand that it is very important to make sure the vet does not leave anything behind, as a stump pyo would be a possibility.

I am going to talk to my repro vet about this. Lots of questions-is a stump pyo less dangerous than a "regular" pyo, for example? What are the odds of a stump pyo?

When I first started asking about the different kinds of surgeries such as ovary sparing a few years ago, my vets thought I was nuts  They still don't do these surgeries but at least now they are reading about them!

I have had 2 girls pyo-one within a few weeks of having been bred, and one, never bred, at age 12 (Pug)- and I have had a lot of girls over the years.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

Tahnee GR said:


> I am going to talk to my repro vet about this. Lots of questions-is a stump pyo less dangerous than a "regular" pyo, for example? What are the odds of a stump pyo?


Good questions, would the part of the uterus left be the part closest to the ovaries? If so, and the bitch gets a pyo, it would be a closed pyo, right? 

As a side note, I like it when a repro vet is also a breeder. Same reasons I don't want to go to a dude ob-gyn. Just a personal preference. But I digress.  

Ihowemt, you were asking before about finding a repro vet. There are a few around me who are board-certified theriogenologists, which means they are specialists in animal reproduction. So that would be one way. But also don't discredit word of mouth (ask the breeders in your area who they use). There are those who have learned by many, many years of experience even if they might lack the official certification.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

If you are going to leave anything, the answer is to leave the uterus. Cannot get a Pyo if the ovaries are gone and cannot influence the uterus. Why leave anything? If you leave ovaries,,there is still the influence on mammary cancer. And if not all uterus is removed, and ovaries are intact, you can still get a Pyo...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Goodtimegoldens said:


> I have shown and bred Goldens for over 30 years. Because I am a breeder, many of my girls have not been spayed until they are 5 or 6. I have had no incidence of spay incontinence and I've had a relatively low number of cancers. I have seen a lot of research indicating that sex hormones are protective in dogs both male and female for Hemengio Sarcoma and for Osteosarcoma in males. The next spay that I do I am going to remove the uterus but leave the ovaries. With the uterus removed there is no possibility of Pyometria, a serious infection of the uterus, but the overies still produce hormones.
> 
> If you have not had a problem, why the change? And yes, the ovaries still produce hormones influencing cancer of the mammary glands.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

lhowemt said:


> The latest research indicates that the incidence of cancer is lower if a female goes through at least one heat.


The research supporting this conclusion is _very_ thin. It may be true that letting a girl have one heat lowers the incidence of some cancers, but the numbers on that UC Davis study are nowhere near big enough to draw any serious conclusions from.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> The research supporting this conclusion is _very_ thin. It may be true that letting a girl have one heat lowers the incidence of some cancers, but the numbers on that UC Davis study are nowhere near big enough to draw any serious conclusions from.


Glad to see someone make this observation. I looked at the study and felt this was the case but many people are quoting the UC Davis study as if it were the final answer.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> The research supporting this conclusion is _very_ thin. It may be true that letting a girl have one heat lowers the incidence of some cancers, but the numbers on that UC Davis study are nowhere near big enough to draw any serious conclusions from.


I don't want to digress, and I haven't scoured every word in the thread, but I think you are the first to mention that specific study.

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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

One concern that has come up is what happens if a male actually ties with a female that had an OSS done? I have heard a second hand story of a male doing this and injecting semen through the vagina wall and the female died. Sounds pretty scary, and am curious of the actuality of this type of risk.

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## Jesus Freak (Feb 7, 2013)

Here's a good article about OSS. http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/09/23/modified-spay-procedure.aspx


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

lhowemt said:


> I don't want to digress, and I haven't scoured every word in the thread, but I think you are the first to mention that specific study.


It's the only one I know of that supports the conclusion you were talking about when you said "The latest research indicates that the incidence of cancer is lower if a female goes through at least one heat," so I assumed that was the research you were referring to. Do you have other research that shows a relationship between spay age and cancer?


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> It's the only one I know of that supports the conclusion you were talking about when you said "The latest research indicates that the incidence of cancer is lower if a female goes through at least one heat," so I assumed that was the research you were referring to. Do you have other research that shows a relationship between spay age and cancer?


Like I said, I don't want to distress so I won't

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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

So I'm gathering the main options available currently are:

1. Traditional spay

2. Remove the ovaries only. Faster recovery, less invasive procedure, will prevent pyo but might lose some of the additional protective benefits of the sex hormones. 

3. Remove the uterus only (retains beneficial sex hormones but might possibly risk a stump pyo, and seems like this isn't widely performed so you'd need to find a vet who is familiar with the procedure). 

Right? Then, couple the above with whether or not the female goes through one or more heat cycles so that she may achieve some protective benefits of sex hormones before the procedure (for procedures 1 and 2). 

Not to derail, but I received a list of references at a seminar I attended last year about the benefits of waiting to spay or neuter. They're not all golden specific, they're not all about females, and most of them are comparing neutered vs unneutered as opposed to allowed to go through one vs. two or more heat cycles vs. spayed at 6 months. In case anyone comes across this thread and is looking for additional info, I wanted to post the citations. Tippy, I know you're a stats person (as am I), and I haven't read these articles, so I can't comment on the sampling, methods of analysis, or generalizability of the findings. I can probably access them through my work, and I can try to pm them to you if you want to take a stab  

Ware WA, Hopper DL. Cardiac tumors in dogs: 1982-1995. J Vet Intern Med 1999 13(2):95-103. 11. 

Prymak C, McKee LJ, Goldschmidt MH, Glickman LT. Epidemiologic, clinical, pathologic, and prognostic characteristics of splenic hemangiosarcoma and splenic hematoma in dogs: 217 cases (1985). JAVMA 1988;193:706-12. 12. 

Cooley DM, Beranek BC, Schlittler DL, Glickman NW, Glickman LT, Waters D. Endogenous gonadal hormone exposure and bone sarcoma risk. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2002 11(11):1434-40. 13. 

Ru G, Terracini B, Glickman LT. Host related risk factors for canine osteosarcoma. Vet J. 1998 156(1):31-9. 14. Bryan JN, Keeler MR, Henry CJ, Bryan ME, Hahn AW, Caldwell CW. A population study of neutering status as a risk factor for canine prostate cancer. Prostate 2007;67:1174-81. 15. 

Teske E, Naan EC, van Dijk EM, Van Garderen E, Schalken JA. Canine prostate carcinoma: epidemiological evidence of an increased risk in castrated dogs. Mol Cell Endocrinol 2002;197:251-5. 16. 

Sorenmo KU, Goldschmidt M, Shofer F, Ferrocone J. Immunohistochemical characterization of canine prostatic carcinoma and correlation with castration status and castration time. Vet Comparative Oncology. 2003 Mar; 1 (1): 48. 17. 

Knapp DW, Glickman NW, Denicola DB, Bonney PL, Lin TL, Glickman LT. Naturally-occurring canine transitional cell carcinoma of the urinary bladder A relevant model of human invasive bladder cancer. Urol Oncol 2000;5:47-59.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

KeaColorado said:


> In case anyone comes across this thread and is looking for additional info, I wanted to post the citations. Tippy, I know you're a stats person (as am I), and I haven't read these articles, so I can't comment on the sampling, methods of analysis, or generalizability of the findings. I can probably access them through my work, and I can try to pm them to you if you want to take a stab


Thanks for the list! I've actually read all those already, so no need to PM them. I'm always hungry for more information on this topic, given all the conflicting results in the research over the last decade or two, plus the complexity of the influential factors in the long-term health benefits or drawbacks of altering or leaving dogs intact.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Thanks Kea. I also have read a tiny bit about tubal ligation, but very very little and I don't recall where.

You sure have great footnotes and info, I read and read and keep poor track of it sometimes, so I am far from prepared for a rigorous discussion.

I don't see a lot of benefit of taking the ovaries and leaving the uterus, personally. Have you come across any discussion of benefits, other than it is a smaller surgery? Without the ovaries it seems moot to me, just take it all out. If the uterus is just a receptacle and not truly an organ, what is there to gain by leaving it?

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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Sally'smom, my interest is moving towards leaving the ovaries, although I am far from sold. A lot of my interest comes from simply leaving the body as intact as possible, especially organs that serve a biochemical function. It is where human hysterectomies are going, and given the age at which we do it I think there is a lot of function left for the ovaries to perform. When I put it in human ages, spaying before a heat is really really young. Even after one heat is still pretty darn young. 

Maybe we'll just wait for 2 heats? I don't know yet.

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## Jesus Freak (Feb 7, 2013)

The only real benefit to leaving the uterus besides a smaller incision is it lessons the likelihood of incontinence later in life.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I am setting up Rose's OSS for late March. I have been in touch with the vet which is 3+ hours away, since Thanksgiving and have read quite a bit on it. If you do opt for the OSS you should be aware of the mammary tumors and check at least yearly for them. Most recommended is to have an ultrasound done. 
Here is a link to the Parsemus Foundation OSS and also at the end you can see vets that have performed the surgery. There is also a video that explains the procedure. 

Parsemus Foundation » Ovary-Sparing Spay

Edit to add: Rose had two heat cycles, my reasoning was to wait until her growth plates close - normally around 18 to 24 months. Since her first heat was at 8 months and she had 9 months between them I am left with doing it at 21 months. I really wanted to wait until after 24 months so we can do the OFFA hips and elbows but I guess I can settle for a very close preliminary results. 

Since Darcy is 4 and a half and still intact I am really not sure what to do. She has had many many heats.


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## JeanieBeth (Jul 13, 2013)

I was advised by our vet to wait until Brie is 24 months to spay Goldens. The latest research indicated to spay after second heat, most recommend waiting until the growth plates have finished fusing, usually between 18 months and 24 months. Brie is 26 months and is in her second heat cycle. Florida just passed a state law stating that all animals must be spayed by 6 months unless they're breeders. Either way we planned on spaying after her second heat. 
As a foster/rescue mom I also see the horrors of unaltered homeless pets and the senseless deaths of thousands of pets a DAY at kill shelters. This is an important dialog, I'm thankful for the input!


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

So far the closest vet that will do OSS is 8 hours away. Good grief, that's really not feasible.

I need to set this aside for a couple of days. I am getting myself too wound up and scattered. I need to get organized and methodical in evaluating the different studies. Right now it seems like there is a study to contradict every other study!

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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I believe those vets listed are the ones that have performed the surgery before. I have contacted other vets closer to me who indicated that they were open to the idea of doing the surgery but I did not feel comfortable with the idea of being the first one, especially after I asked if they have assisted or been present at any of these surgeries and the answer was no. The cut has to be done correctly at the cervix or the possibility of stump pyo is still there.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

I agree, I have no interest in being someone's first.

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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I personally want the ovaries out of my dogs. So far, my girl who has lived the longest was six months when spayed. My Mantha has now outlived her mom who was spayed at five years. Mantha was spayed close to 8 years. Leaving the ovaries is definitely controversial and not correlated to what goes on with us humans... Dogs do not live as long as we do, and their bleeding/heat cycle is not the same as ours..l.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

I just made an appt for an OSS for Pearl in August. I'm very excited, it is a board certified surgeon at WSU and she has done many OSS's. They are only 4 hours away, not 8. We can go either normal surgery with a regular sized incision, or lapriscopic. We'll probably do the normal surgery because of cost ($1000 more). 

I had a wonderful and long discussion with this surgeon, who actually did a Fibrosarcoma surgery on our first golden 10 years ago. While she has done many, she's not an active advocate because of the risk of mammary cancer. She talked about how it really is breed specific and if you are willing to accept the risks. Once I told her my pup is a golden, her demeanor changed and she thought it was a good breed to consider this for (my words). 

Now let's just hope she doesn't go into heat #2 before then!


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Not to confuse this issue but or breeder/ trainer who follows 'holistic' veterinary services suggested we consider something. We have our new female Golden 'Foxy' with them now for field training. They are suggesting that we check out a Spay procedure that leaves 'one' ovary, removing the other one and uterus. This procedure seeks to balance the medical benefits of having some hormone in the dog, but also reducing the amount of hormone that could impact the risk of mammary cancer or other forms of cancer.

I currently have my oldest female that just had a Tubular Adenocarcinoma removed from her mammary gland. She has breast cancer. She was spade at 5yrs. 

We are still researching this and other options for our new girl. She just finished having her first heat cycle.

Anyone hear anything about the 'one' ovary spade procedure?


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Today is the day. Pearl is in for her OSS at WSU vet hospital. I thought long and hard, after researching and discussing it with this surgeon. I have learned so much and will post a writeup later. 

Ultimately, the surgeon who has done many oss and her phd on pyo (in Sweden), felt we were "good" candidates for the surgery. She said she would not recommend it for many breeds without the cancer risk (primarily rotties then goldens and boxers) or for owners that are not committed to seriously accepting the risks and taking care to watch for them. Risks being pyo and mammary tumors. She is very concerned about it becoming popular because of the critical issue of getting ALL uterine tissue to avoid pyo. I sure am glad I decided to come here and go with a top notch surgeon. Ironically she removed a tumor from our first golden 11 years ago. 

We are doing it via laproscopically because the incisuon can be much smaller. Non lapro OSS she would make a larger incision than traditional spay. We are leaving only 1 ovary.

I am awfully worried about my baby today! I really pray I am doing her right. I believe so, but it is scary bucking the norm.

It doesn't help that she failed her heart clearance yesterday... a minor issue the cardiologist said is not a concern for her but she should not be bred. Obviously not an issue withe the spay. The tech told me that heat cycles can mess with the echo and she is starting to swell so perhaps that plays a role. Our student is going to check on that more today. It just adds to my anxiety about my baby. Good thing I have a lot to keep myself busy for a while.

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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Sending good thoughts to Pearl for a quick recovery. 

How much does this procedure cost?


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

It is a lot, possibly $1400. If we didn't go lapro it would be $4-500 I believe. WSU isn't inexpensive. The cardiac including echo is $200 which I think is a low price from what I have read. They do that for breeding females and said they'd do it for me since she was already admitted.

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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

lhowemt said:


> It is a lot, possibly $1400. If we didn't go lapro it would be $4-500 I believe. WSU isn't inexpensive. The cardiac including echo is $200 which I think is a low price from what I have read. They do that for breeding females and said they'd do it for me since she was already admitted.
> 
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Thanks, good to know! Does this amount also include pre anesthesia blood work and IV fluids?


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Yes they give the whole shebang. I don't think not doing those are even an option since it is a teaching program.

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## Tiff L (Jan 12, 2014)

My gals both had an OSS yesterday in Bellingham, WA. Dr Henderson consulted with several other surgeons including WSU. She left one ovary (left) in both of my pups


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## Il_cane (Sep 27, 2017)

KeaColorado said:


> As a side note, I like it when a repro vet is also a breeder. Same reasons I don't want to go to a dude ob-gyn.


:grin2: Several years late and totally off topic but laughing to hard not to reply... My aunt used to say neither would she take her Mercedes to a tractor mechanic.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Brave said:


> I think there are some vets that just remove the ovaries. IDK if that is the same as tying the tubes.




Never mind


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