# "English" Golden Retriever / Breeder Recommendation / CA, OR, NV



## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I can't think of a single breeder I've heard of in those states and sells puppies as "English" that I would buy a puppy from. There may be a few conformation breeders with light colored, but in standard dogs that have a lot of bone and might fit the look you like.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

I would also recommend expanding your options to include conformation breeders, and not those who are marketing English Cream goldens. I don't know of any who are reputable when focusing on color primarily. Here's an example of my medium colored adult and our new puppy from a reputable conformation breeder. 

I also wouldn't rule our expanding your search area and flying to get your puppy and flying back with them (many members here have done so). The puppy is small enough they can fly in the cabin with you in a Sherpa bag.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

TrevorG said:


> ...
> I found some wonderful breeders on the East Coast, but don't want to fly the puppy in. I didn't mail-order my wife, so I am not going to mail-order my dog either. ... almost bought a puppy from a puppy mill (the website looked really good, the breeder was nice on the phone, asked all the right questions, and had all paperwork - but some more research online revealed it was, indeed, a puppy mill with many sick puppies and even a major lawsuit).
> 
> Now, who do you love in this area, who is trustworthy? Any breeder recommendations, CA/OR/NV, for English Golden Retrievers?
> ...


Here's the thing, you didn't mail order your wife because you didn't reduce the pool of single women in your area by deciding in advance that the woman you married had to be of Scandinavian heritage from Ivy League educated parents, with platinum blond hair, blue eyes and in a height range of 5'4" to 5'6". You had personal preferences but you still had a large dating population to choose from and I suspect you didn't rush into marriage by insisting that you had to have a wife home in your house within 6 months. So really, buying a carefully bred puppy from a reputable breeder is nothing like acquiring a wife.

When you make a decision that your next Golden has to be a certain color, and that color is one the one that is being exploited more than any other by people who farm dogs like livestock for huge sums of money, then you have to realize that it's not going to be quite as easy to find a puppy in a convenient location. There honestly may not be 10 top quality breeders of lighter colored Goldens in the entire U.S. - and the demand far exceeds the supply.

If you were taken in and almost wrote a check to a puppy farm, it tells you how much higher your bar needs to be set on what qualifies a breeder as reputable when it comes to lighter colored Goldens. You may dismiss the terms "English Cream" or "English Golden Retriever" as merely semantics but I assure you that there is not an ethical hobby breeder of Golden Retrievers on the planet who would ever refer to their dogs as "Cream" or "English" - it's simply embarrassing and incorrect to serious Golden Retriever breeders and enthusiasts to use those words because they have been taken over by the "greeders" who are using them as marketing ploys. So the easiest way to begin your search is to cross of the list ANY breeder who mentions those terms in conversation or on their website or facebook page. Period. 

The second way to determine whether you've found a really good ethical breeder is to find out what they do with their dogs other than produce puppies. If all they do is live on a farm and breed litter after litter of white puppies, then you've found someone who is using puppies prices to support their lifestyle and do nothing to improve the breed or learn about correct structure, health or temperament. You don't learn sitting at home on your farm. People who compete with their dogs are always learning. IT should be AKC conformation rather than any 'International' championship earned in the U.S. and there should be obedience and/or field training if you really want to know that you've found a serious hobby breeder rather than a puppy farmer.

If you want to avoid puppy farmers, they should no own their own sires. Really good hobby breeders are trying to produce continually improving puppies. To do that they need to find genetics that complement and improve faults in the bitches they own. If a breeder owns multiple males that they are continuously using to sire their own litters, it's a huge red flag that they aren't a great source for a puppy.

You will need to be extra careful pedigree research because there are so many breeders ignoring health clearances - if the parents of the puppy have good clearances you will still need to make sure that there aren't dogs in the pedigree from puppy mills (and there are a lot - they are easy to identify because the typically use the word Silver or White or similar color related descriptive as part of the kennel name) and they have historically have been bred with either no clearance done or on purpose in spite of the fact that they failed a hip or elbow clearance. It's going to require a lot more work to find a litter with cream puppies than it would be for gold puppies where you're not putting a color restriction on your search filter.

If you've found some wonderful breeders on the east coast, why don't you share their names here with us. We can let you know if you've really found wonderful breeders or if they have just put up a deceptive website. When you narrow it down the word of mouth referral from these breeders will be best. It's a small world and they will know of each other even if they're not personally acquainted.


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

You might want to try Karen Webb (Star Crowned). She might be a little farther than you had been looking, but it is worth contacting her.

Star Crowned Golden Retrievers - "Versatile Goldens with English Good Looks", English Golden Retrievers, British Golden Retrievers, Cream Golden Retrievers, White Golden Retrievers, Cream Golden Puppies, California Cream Goldens, English Goldens in C


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

nolefan said:


> Here's the thing, you didn't mail order your wife because you didn't reduce the pool of single women in your area by deciding in advance that the woman you married had to be of Scandinavian heritage from Ivy League educated parents, with platinum blond hair, blue eyes and in a height range of 5'4" to 5'6". You had personal preferences but you still had a large dating population to choose from and I suspect you didn't rush into marriage by insisting that you had to have a wife home in your house within 6 months. So really, buying a carefully bred puppy from a reputable breeder is nothing like acquiring a wife.
> 
> When you make a decision that your next Golden has to be a certain color, and that color is one the one that is being exploited more than any other by people who farm dogs like livestock for huge sums of money, then you have to realize that it's not going to be quite as easy to find a puppy in a convenient location. There honestly may not be 10 top quality breeders of lighter colored Goldens in the entire U.S. - and the demand far exceeds the supply.
> 
> ...


This^^^^ is gospel. 
Nothing to add, just complements to Kristy- you covered it all and did a fab job!


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## FatherofElsie (Aug 5, 2018)

We got our English Cream Golden from this breeder in So. California (Moorpark) last year. 

https://www.goldenmeadowsretrievers.com

They're not cheap as our female was $3,000 However, very reputable breeder, been in business a long time, and if we decide to get another we'd go back to them as I feel they're trustworthy. Their dogs have been in many commercials and some Hollywood types get their dogs there (if that makes a difference).


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

FatherofElsie said:


> We got our English Cream Golden from this breeder in So. California (Moorpark) last year.
> 
> https://www.goldenmeadowsretrievers.com
> 
> They're not cheap as our female was $3,000 However, very reputable breeder, been in business a long time, and if we decide to get another we'd go back to them as I feel they're trustworthy. Their dogs have been in many commercials and some Hollywood types get their dogs there (if that makes a difference).


I regret to inform you that you've been taken advantage of. Just because they've been in business a long time and have dogs work in commercials or purchased by "Hollywood types" does not mean the breeder is following the GRCA Code of Ethics. You might be interested in reading previous threads on this breeder before purchasing another puppy from them or recommending them to anyone else.

The first dog I found on their website listed on OFA doesn't have a cardiologist heart clearance and is out of a bitch with hip dysplasia by a sire who failed his elbow clearance. Take a look for yourself: GLDNMEADOWS HERE WE GO AGAIN https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1707309

https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co...er-puppy/61831-golden-meadows-ventura-ca.html

https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co...44689-golden-meadows-breeder-moorpark-ca.html


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## Siladhiel (Aug 3, 2018)

I am not actively looking for a puppy right now but I stumbled upon this site: Once Upon A Dream Kennels - Home 

What do you think about this breeder? 

They have a litter coming soon from light colored parents: Lylas And Fabio 2018 - Once Upon A Dream Kennels

The breeder seem to provide a lot of info on the clearances, but how can that be verified? I found minimal information on OFA for the father, nothing on the mother. They are both imported from Serbia. 

Any suggestion, comment, guidance, will be highly appreciated.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

*Mt*



Siladhiel said:


> The breeder seem to provide a lot of info on the clearances, but how can that be verified? I found minimal information on OFA for the father, nothing on the mother. They are both imported from Serbia.
> 
> Any suggestion, comment, guidance, will be highly appreciated.


What you said there is correct. First, I would suggest you drop the term “clearances”. It does you no good if you don’t know how honest or ethical the breeder is because clearances is defined by the person using it. It really should mean, “All of the core four health certifications as recommended in this country have been completed at the appropriate ages and it is all verifiable on OFA”. However, that is not usually the case when talking to a color focused breeder/greeder. That is what you are finding here, someone who is using the term “full clearances” on their website when they are obviously breeding outside the breeding standards in this country.

The father who’s OFA Page is annotated below has literally non pe of the core four health certifications in place. He may have be bred opunderage but certainly with out appropriate hip and elbow certifications which are still missing. Preliminary reports are not certifications they are peek in to the health of the joint but only rated by one expert and can be done at quite a young age, before a dog reaches maturity. The actual certification is a consensus of three experts rating the joint and can not be done until 24 months when the dog is mature. His eye certification is expired since they have to be updated annually (the only test with an annual requirement). Hire heart was not done by a Cardiologist which Goldens need due to deadly diseases in the breed.

As far as the mom, she is a complete blank on verifiable health certifications. She was imported and apparently had health testing done program to arriving here. The problem is that Serbia does not have the same stringent health testing standards as the US. Since the mom is living and producing in the US she should meet our standards. Sadly, as is the case with so many dogs imported beyond the puppy age, it is done so breeders can claim “clearances” that are deficient by US standards. Here hips and elbows were tested before she was 24 months. It is very uncommon to test hearts overseas especially on the continent so that heart test to me is questionable. Was it done overseas? If it was I don’t know that it was done by a cardiologist and also you would have to be confident translating a Serbian document. If it was done here, why not pay the nominal fee to have it up on OFA? I have the same issues with her eyes. The heart and eyes have actually been removed by the moderator on K9Data a couple of times because they are not verifiable. I would imagine this dog might become locked in the future if that trend continues.

So between these parents, there are absolutely none of the 8 (4 for each) health certifications that should be in place if the breeder is being responsible and following the breeding standards of our country. To me this makes the full clearances claim on big lie and an attempt to exploit the lack of knowledge of buyers. I would find it difficult to trust anything a person so comfortable with misinformation and misrepresentation had to say.

This by the way is what I have found to be the case with about. 95% of breeders that use the “English Cream” marketing term. Apparently it inspires a lot of deception.


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## FatherofElsie (Aug 5, 2018)

nolefan said:


> I regret to inform you that you've been taken advantage of. Just because they've been in business a long time and have dogs work in commercials or purchased by "Hollywood types" does not mean the breeder is following the GRCA Code of Ethics. You might be interested in reading previous threads on this breeder before purchasing another puppy from them or recommending them to anyone else.
> 
> The first dog I found on their website listed on OFA doesn't have a cardiologist heart clearance and is out of a bitch with hip dysplasia by a sire who failed his elbow clearance. Take a look for yourself: GLDNMEADOWS HERE WE GO AGAIN https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1707309
> 
> ...


I’m not saying a person should not do their own due diligence before selecting a breeder. The OP asked for a recommendation and I gave mine based on personal experience. I can’t speak for anyone else. 

We toured Golden Meadows, met the sire, dame, and got to see the litter. On pick-up day, we received a packet containing medical documentation, not “clearance,” on both parents including the puppy, which covered eyes, hips, elbows, heart, shots, etc. The next day we took her to our own vet (educated at UC Davis) for an exam and she concurred that we have a healthy-happy pup.

For you to convince me we were “taken”…..you’re going to have to do a better job.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

FatherofElsie said:


> For you to convince me we were “taken”…..you’re going to have to do a better job.


If you are serious about this it is quite easy. Just provide the names of the parents of your dog. We will provide the proof. I honestly don’t want to do the work for their whole kennel of dogs. They have a ton.


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## FatherofElsie (Aug 5, 2018)

LJack said:


> If you are serious about this it is quite easy. Just provide the names of the parents of your dog. We will provide the proof. I honestly don’t want to do the work for their whole kennel of dogs. They have a ton.


No. I'm not. This is a family dog, not a candidate for Westminster.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

FatherofElsie said:


> No. I'm not. This is a family dog, not a candidate for Westminster.


Well, I don’t know about you but family companion is the most important job my dog has. A big part of that is being healthy not just as a puppy but as a mature dog and hopefully as a very active senior. I don’t see health personally as something fancy that only show dogs should be entitled to. 

If you are curious to learn how good or how bad the health history is behind you puppy is so you can have a clearer path in future health decisions just let this group know the parents. Remember, we are not trying to get any money out of you like your breeder was. We only care about full disclosure. 

Every time I have looked into this breeder when others were looking and asking for expert help in reading health certifications, they have been very lacking. With the large price tag and the fact that higher quality dogs from a structure and health certifications standpoint are available in your area for less, yes you overpaid. Wether you are convinced or not is solely up to your ability to review the facts.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Just in case your pup’s parents are LT and Precious. 

I would as your pup ages keep an eye tuned to heart, eye and elbow issues. The pedigree and ancestors are incredibly week in those areas especially the elbows. It is also a very inbred pedigree on Demokles A Comitate Aureo who is missing his heart certification he would be the pup’s grandfather and the great-great grandfather twice. 

It is also heavy on the full sibling bitches Isabella A Comitate Aureo (missing everything but her heart certification) and Ivanna A Comitate Aureo (missing her elbow certification).

The pedigrees especially Precious’ is very lacking in proven quality. This level of health risk and lack of proven quality should never command a 3,000 or more price tag especially when generations of full and verifiable health certifications from titled parents are available for less in your area.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Can I just say having looked at the pedigree of the Serbian bred dam that A/A hips are good and in nearly every country, apart from the US, hips and elbows are X-rayed and scored at a year old and eyes can be examined at any age but this examination must be completed annually. If breeders are in the US then they should follow the guidance of that country but an imported dam may well have excellent clearances in another country. Annef


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

That is certainly true and the health testing would be appropriate to the country in which the testing was done. If the bitch stayed in Serbia and was bred in Serbia, yes that would be appropriate health testing. 

As soon as the bitch is imported to the US, those test become the equivalent of our preliminary reports since they are done underage for here. The responsible breeder follows the national breed club’s health testing standards and gets the hips and elbows evaluated at 24 months. I doubt the hips would have a challenge of passing here because you are correct A/A is a very good preliminary result. I do have serious concerns about elbows changing from 0/0 though to a higher number and in the US grade 1 elbows are not considered bredable like they are overseas. I have seen too many 0/0 elbow dogs get evaluated dysplastic here when tested at the appropriate age (24 months or older) to give a pass to a breeder not following the testing standards in the US. We certainly are more stringent standards in the US than any other country I have found.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

FatherofElsie said:


> No. I'm not. This is a family dog, not a candidate for Westminster.


Please permit me this slight diversion.

I get so tired of hearing this chant. Our dogs are show dogs. But that's just a job (and it's good for dogs to have jobs). What they really are first and more importantly than anything else are family members. "Show dog" is a weekend pursuit that only lasts a couple years. Their whole lives they are family members. As I type this I have one show dog lying on my feet, one across my lap, one lying on the other end of the couch, and four others lying nearby within arm's reach. We are family. When not at work, all my time is spent with these dogs, and there is not a moment at home where I'm not in physical contact with at least one dog. I can't remember the last time I went to the bathroom alone. Lol! 

The puppies we breed go to 

...Sorry, I had to take a typing break because my retired show dog, Gibbs, decided it was time for me to pet him for a bit...

The puppies we breed go to homes where they will be family members. This is true whether they go to show homes, performance homes, therapy homes, or to someone who "just" wants a companion. Every, single puppy we breed becomes a cherished family member[';? (<-- sorry, another dog, a current show dog named Khaleesi, just put her head on my laptop and typed that last bit) in a home where they will love and be loved with every breath they take their entire lives.

This notion that show dogs are somehow not family pets, or that family pets are somehow different than show dogs, or that show dogs are more special, is just wrong. It's a persistent myth. The difference between a show dog and a family pet is simply that the show dog was the structurally most correct puppy in a litter that was bred to have good health, structure and temperament -- three traits that every family pet should have anyway.

And besides tiring of people reciting this old "just a family pet" saw, I also look sideways at brand new members whose only posts are in defense of bad breeders. I can't count how many times I've seen that happen here, and it's suspicious to me every time. It is often, though not always, the breeder herself posing as someone who bought a puppy from her, and they always praise the breeder and say how great and healthy their puppy is, and what a great experience they had with that breeder. And then they disappear never to be heard from again. Every. Single. Time. Not saying this is the case with Father, just noting how the routine usually goes.


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## Golden_Dad (Apr 10, 2018)

Finding a well-bred Golden Retriever with all the health clearances is not an easy task -- takes lots of research, applications, interviews, and patience. I live in Southern CA, have had the pleasure of owning Golden Retrievers for 30 years, and last November began looking for a puppy to add to our family (also have a 6 year old Golden). This forum was a big help. What I found is that some of the slickest breeder web sites do not follow GRCA practices, and lack many of the clearances on OFA.org. Golden Meadows being one of them. To me, lack of clearances on OFA.org = no touch. A couple of breeders that I considered claimed they had full clearances, but would not provide them to me -- said they would give them to me when I took the puppy home. Doing your due diligence rewards you with a higher probability that your pup will have fewer health problems -- many do not show up until 6 years +. GRCA has chapters throughout the US and can let you know if any litters are available. I found that none were available locally, as by the time I inquired, all pups were already spoken for, but you can network. My findings are the best breeders are not the puppy mills that have litters monthly or more often; the best ones are Golden Enthusiasts who have litters far less frequently -- once or twice a year, perhaps -- and there are waiting lists, and the interviews -- to ensure that you are a suitable candidate. I ended up with a puppy from SamBen ? Golden Retrievers -- he's about 6 months old, very light colored, energetic, a self-starter, well trained for his age, and super nice. He and my 6 year old Golden are best friends -- everything worked out super well. Best of luck in your search.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

LJack said:


> That is certainly true and the health testing would be appropriate to the country in which the testing was done. If the bitch stayed in Serbia and was bred in Serbia, yes that would be appropriate health testing.
> 
> As soon as the bitch is imported to the US, those test become the equivalent of our preliminary reports since they are done underage for here. The responsible breeder follows the national breed club’s health testing standards and gets the hips and elbows evaluated at 24 months. I doubt the hips would have a challenge of passing here because you are correct A/A is a very good preliminary result. I do have serious concerns about elbows changing from 0/0 though to a higher number and in the *US grade 1 elbows are not considered bredable like they are overseas.* I have seen too many 0/0 elbow dogs get evaluated dysplastic here when tested at the appropriate age (24 months or older) to give a pass to a breeder not following the testing standards in the US. We certainly are more stringent standards in the US than any other country I have found.


WOW, can you please explain why are they not considered breed-able? I wonder if you are aware of the many grade 1 elbows both labs and goldens who run field trials and live to a ripe age of 15 without limping their entire life all while achieving FC and AFC titles? The science behind elbows is not there yet. It is an indication and something to look at. But you have to look at the entire package instead of just removing them from the breeding pool.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Claudia M said:


> WOW, can you please explain why are they not considered breed-able? I wonder if you are aware of the many grade 1 elbows both labs and goldens who run field trials and live to a ripe age of 15 without limping their entire life all while achieving FC and AFC titles? The science behind elbows is not there yet. It is an indication and something to look at. But you have to look at the entire package instead of just removing them from the breeding pool.



You'd have to take that up with OFA and the CoE. We know studies show that breeding even a grade 1 is more likely to produce offspring with elbow dysplasia. If a breeder chooses to overlook that for a dog they want to breed, that's their prerogative. And I'm sure in some instances it is done by very responsible, conscientious breeders. I still don't think it should be recommended or accepted by the GRCA CoE. I already see poor breeders using excuses to breed grade 1 elbows in the US. 


From OFA: "The radiographic evidence of ED, the presence of secondary DJD, and the clinical presentation do not correlate directly. Grondalen (6) reported on a population of 207 Rottweilers of which 141 were not lame. Yet 68% of the non-lame dogs had DJD of the elbow. Another study by Read (7) reported on serial radiographic and physical examination of 55 Rottweilers at 6 and 12 months of age. At 6 months of age the majority of lame dogs did not have radiographic evidence of ED; however, by 12 months of age the radiographic changes were apparent. But the majority of dogs remained sound.
Like hip dysplasia, many dogs affected with Grade I ED do not exhibit lameness; and like hip dysplasia, breeders cannot depend on using clinical signs to diagnose the disease. Dogs with minimal pathology involving the medial coronoid process may not always present clinical lameness, as the DJD and fibrosis of soft tissues may actually help to stabilize the joint. It is very likely that using lameness as a guideline to accept the diagnosis of ED would permit an increased incidence of disease genes to proliferate in the breeding population."


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> WOW, can you please explain why are they not considered breed-able? I wonder if you are aware of the many grade 1 elbows both labs and goldens who run field trials and live to a ripe age of 15 without limping their entire life all while achieving FC and AFC titles? The science behind elbows is not there yet. It is an indication and something to look at. But you have to look at the entire package instead of just removing them from the breeding pool.


Looking at the whole package is what most these Eastern Euro breeders are not doing. Yes, there are some FC/AFC dogs w Gr1 elbows out there, asymptomatic. And yes, those dogs get used- they are talented, and have a good reason to keep in the gene pool... but these dogs w 1/1 elbows and nothing whatever to make them desirable aside from coat color? It's far better to keep Gr1 elbows and using those dogs a no-no per CoE and do a case by case decision based on more than some hiccup from Utah importing 15 mo old in-whelp bitches to start up a business with. You're talking about oranges to apples. You can't really believe these folks are THINKING about the gene pool? You're a smart gal- you know that. 
Plus, and perhaps more importantly, these 'breeders' importing these Gr1 elbows are not the FC/AFC dogs - night and day from each other. The FC/AFC dogs have a line of people waiting knowing they are buying a Gr1 elbow and planning to use it in the field. These dogs are not being bought to be family pets, and probably given the decision is made w knowledge instead of heart, can manage without a whole family's financial turmoil to fix a problem. Pet vs field dog- totally different again. I can't recall ever seeing a FC/AFC dog who was also in the eastern euro gene export group. 
The people buying those dogs are people wanting a mellow pet. 
The Code isn't going to change. And it shouldn't. And the people being discussed are not making a conscious choice to step outside the lines because their breeding stock has a overriding reason to be desirable in the gene pool.. they only know that they are going to make some money to the detriment of the breed...they're in it for the bucks and nothing else.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Prism Goldens said:


> Looking at the whole package is what most these Eastern Euro breeders are not doing. Yes, there are some FC/AFC dogs w Gr1 elbows out there, asymptomatic. And yes, those dogs get used- they are talented, and have a good reason to keep in the gene pool... but these dogs w 1/1 elbows and nothing whatever to make them desirable aside from coat color? It's far better to keep Gr1 elbows and using those dogs a no-no per CoE and do a case by case decision based on more than some hiccup from Utah importing 15 mo old in-whelp bitches to start up a business with. You're talking about oranges to apples. You can't really believe these folks are THINKING about the gene pool? You're a smart gal- you know that.
> Plus, and perhaps more importantly, these 'breeders' importing these Gr1 elbows are not the FC/AFC dogs - night and day from each other. The FC/AFC dogs have a line of people waiting knowing they are buying a Gr1 elbow and planning to use it in the field. These dogs are not being bought to be family pets, and probably given the decision is made w knowledge instead of heart, can manage without a whole family's financial turmoil to fix a problem. Pet vs field dog- totally different again. I can't recall ever seeing a FC/AFC dog who was also in the eastern euro gene export group.
> The people buying those dogs are people wanting a mellow pet.
> The Code isn't going to change. And it shouldn't. And the people being discussed are not making a conscious choice to step outside the lines because their breeding stock has a overriding reason to be desirable in the gene pool.. they only know that they are going to make some money to the detriment of the breed...they're in it for the bucks and nothing else.



I completely agree with you. The statement was way too broad reason why I indicated the FC/AFC dogs. Yes, not all are to be bred but to state that they are not breed-able it is too broad. Regardless of pet or field dog (which all my dogs are pets first before they are field dogs :smile2 one has to look at the whole picture. You guys do a good job at pointing out the discrepancies in that picture. One red flag is one thing but buyer should be aware. But several is a completely different scenario.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

ArchersMom said:


> You'd have to take that up with OFA and the CoE. We know studies show that breeding even a grade 1 is more likely to produce offspring with elbow dysplasia. If a breeder chooses to overlook that for a dog they want to breed, that's their prerogative. And I'm sure in some instances it is done by very responsible, conscientious breeders. I still don't think it should be recommended or accepted by the GRCA CoE. I already see poor breeders using excuses to breed grade 1 elbows in the US.
> 
> 
> From OFA: "The radiographic evidence of ED, the presence of secondary DJD, and the clinical presentation do not correlate directly. Grondalen (6) reported on a population of 207 Rottweilers of which 141 were not lame. Yet 68% of the non-lame dogs had DJD of the elbow. Another study by Read (7) reported on serial radiographic and physical examination of 55 Rottweilers at 6 and 12 months of age. At 6 months of age the majority of lame dogs did not have radiographic evidence of ED; however, by 12 months of age the radiographic changes were apparent. But the majority of dogs remained sound.
> Like hip dysplasia, many dogs affected with Grade I ED do not exhibit lameness; and like hip dysplasia, breeders cannot depend on using clinical signs to diagnose the disease. Dogs with minimal pathology involving the medial coronoid process may not always present clinical lameness, as the DJD and fibrosis of soft tissues may actually help to stabilize the joint. It is very likely that using lameness as a guideline to accept the diagnosis of ED would permit an increased incidence of disease genes to proliferate in the breeding population."


ED, HD are not just genetic issues. That has been established already. Also I am talking about dogs that have a lot of miles on their hips and elbows. Also Grade I DJD is given quite freely, reason why in Europe it is equated to a fair in hips. I did not invoke GRCA COE nor did I say to change it. Frankly I would like to see more science behind elbows, unfortunately the only way to really tell in those low grades is thru laparoscopic invasion (and that is after taking the classes on Institute of Canine Biology, talking with specialists and also breeders who to today do not trust or do the elbow clearances - have to emphasize that I believe they should be done). And even in those situations it is unknown if it is genetic and/or environmental.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> WOW, can you please explain why are they not considered breed-able? I wonder if you are aware of the many grade 1 elbows both labs and goldens who run field trials and live to a ripe age of 15 without limping their entire life all while achieving FC and AFC titles? The science behind elbows is not there yet. It is an indication and something to look at. But you have to look at the entire package instead of just removing them from the breeding pool.


Absolutely. You are looking in to a response directly to Anne so the wording/Jargon I used was specific to a breeder residing in the UK or Europe. In the US it is easy to see a pass (normal) or a fail (Graded 1-3) in FCI and BVA the results 0/0, 0/1, 1/0 and 1/1 are considered and communicated as breedable. 2-3 are not. If you’d like to learn more the resources for BVA and FCI are online. My program has taken a serious European focus so when conversing with those overseas, I use their terminology. 

Any breeder certainly can bred what ever they like and my response to Anne was never intended to go to the place you took it as I believe Anne would understand my meaning.


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## FatherofElsie (Aug 5, 2018)

LJack said:


> Well, I don’t know about you but family companion is the most important job my dog has. A big part of that is being healthy not just as a puppy but as a mature dog and hopefully as a very active senior. I don’t see health personally as something fancy that only show dogs should be entitled to.
> 
> If you are curious to learn how good or how bad the health history is behind you puppy is so you can have a clearer path in future health decisions just let this group know the parents. Remember, we are not trying to get any money out of you like your breeder was. We only care about full disclosure.
> 
> Every time I have looked into this breeder when others were looking and asking for expert help in reading health certifications, they have been very lacking. With the large price tag and the fact that higher quality dogs from a structure and health certifications standpoint are available in your area for less, yes you overpaid. Wether you are convinced or not is solely up to your ability to review the facts.


OK. You don't like Golden Meadows, fair enough. Who do you recommend for a breeder in Southern California?


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## FatherofElsie (Aug 5, 2018)

LJack said:


> Well, I don’t know about you but family companion is the most important job my dog has. A big part of that is being healthy not just as a puppy but as a mature dog and hopefully as a very active senior. I don’t see health personally as something fancy that only show dogs should be entitled to.
> 
> If you are curious to learn how good or how bad the health history is behind you puppy is so you can have a clearer path in future health decisions just let this group know the parents. Remember, we are not trying to get any money out of you like your breeder was. We only care about full disclosure.
> 
> Every time I have looked into this breeder when others were looking and asking for expert help in reading health certifications, they have been very lacking. With the large price tag and the fact that higher quality dogs from a structure and health certifications standpoint are available in your area for less, yes you overpaid. Wether you are convinced or not is solely up to your ability to review the facts.





DanaRuns said:


> Please permit me this slight diversion.
> 
> I get so tired of hearing this chant. Our dogs are show dogs. But that's just a job (and it's good for dogs to have jobs). What they really are first and more importantly than anything else are family members. "Show dog" is a weekend pursuit that only lasts a couple years. Their whole lives they are family members. As I type this I have one show dog lying on my feet, one across my lap, one lying on the other end of the couch, and four others lying nearby within arm's reach. We are family. When not at work, all my time is spent with these dogs, and there is not a moment at home where I'm not in physical contact with at least one dog. I can't remember the last time I went to the bathroom alone. Lol!
> 
> ...


I thought I gave as many disclaimers as possible. I'm not a Golden Retriever expert, she's only our second one, I have nothing to do with Golden Meadows other than we bought a dog from them and, so far, she's healthy and happy. If you don't like them, fair enough, but can you tell me who you recommend for a breeder in So Cal?


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

FatherofElsie said:


> If you don't like them, fair enough, but can you tell me who you recommend for a breeder in So Cal?


Funny you should ask. 

I have created an entire resource list of SoCal breeders whom I know and trust. Here's a link to my list, which was repeated in a separate thread by kwhit here when the moderators here inexplicably told me I couldn't include my own kennel name in the resource list. And several folks have commented and added to the list in both threads.


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## FatherofElsie (Aug 5, 2018)

DanaRuns said:


> Funny you should ask.
> 
> I have created an entire resource list of SoCal breeders whom I know and trust. Here's a link to my list, which was repeated in a separate thread by kwhit here when the moderators here inexplicably told me I couldn't include my own kennel name in the resource list. And several folks have commented and added to the list in both threads.


Thank you! I appreciate it as we may get another once our girl gets older.

*P.S.* - I just looked a little closer at your list. We got our first Golden from a person on your list. I don't want to share her name as I doubt they're still in business. The owner was an older lady and that was 10 years ago.

She was/is(?) listed as an AKC breeder - whatever that means. After we paid our deposit, and 2 days before we were scheduled to pick up, the breeder called to tell us our puppy was diagnosed with "Puppy Strangles". She told us we did not have to take the puppy. Because of the timing and my wife was off work for the summer we decided to take her anyway. The breeder offered to pay for the initial vet bills and anti-biotics.

Elsie ended up being fine except for a few pustules around her mouth. Around her 8th birthday our vet noticed her gums looked a bit pale - she had no symptoms whatsoever. An ultrasound showed spots on her spleen and to make a long story short we had her spleen removed and she was diagnosed with Histiocytic Sarcoma. She had a good quality of life for six months until we had to put her down. 

Not blaming the breeder at all as Elsie was the most beautiful and loving dog we ever had. I just wish this breed was just not so **** prone to cancer!


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

The lists posted early is a good start. I would add Hi-Tide and Glencooley as two that would be toward the top of my referral list. Southern California has more responsible breeders than a lot of other area of the country. There are certainly a lot of people looking but if you give yourself time to find a responsibly bred puppy, you should be able to get a puppy from parents with full and verifiable health certifications (where the ancestors have them too) that are titled in some venue to show their quality at the same price you paid or maybe less.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

LJack said:


> The lists posted early is a good start. I would add Hi-Tide and Glencooley as two that would be toward the top of my referral list.


Second, third, and fourth Hi-Tide! We just got our little girl from them. They've been the absolute best about everything through the whole process. And I honestly got exactly what I asked for.... a confident, water-loving dog. She sent us home with these awesome binders full of information.... pedigree, clearances, socialization check list (amen!), article on biting/teething, medical records, recommended upcoming vaccine time line, feeding schedule for the next year (recommendations based on age), etc (that's all I can remember off the top of my head). We refer to that binder often as we get into a routine. 

She just had a litter so I don't believe she's planning for another litter anytime soon.


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## benelatuit (Jul 22, 2018)

Golden Meadows seems to be a magnet for controversy on this site. As I posted on another thread, we got our gorgeous, beloved "English Cream"(I'm sorry - I understand this is a frowned-upon phrase here but I don't have a better descriptor) from them in 2005. 

Her hips were rated "fair". She never had any hip problems and had a lot of exercise and plenty of ball-chasing during her twelve and a half years. She was prone to weight gain but otherwise healthy throughout her life. She died in June from lymphoma. I am still so torn up about it I am now hanging out on Golden Retriever forums for some kind of therapy. She had the most amazing temperament anyone could wish for. Absolutely calm from the get-go and so willing to please (okay, with just the tiniest bit of sneakiness where food was involved...) and so incredibly loyal. She was wonderful with small children and other pets. If I could clone her I would, regardless of the shade thrown on Golden Meadows here. I am not defending them - I know nothing about the higher merits of breeding and I don't care one way or the other about them - but she was one fabulous and incredibly beautiful (at least to me) dog.

https://polloplayer.wordpress.com/2018/06/09/chloe-2/

Like the OP, though, what would be helpful to learn is the name of a breeder who does responsibly breed the lighter colored Goldens. I have read that they are calm and that was certainly our experience. If I can talk a certain spouse into another dog down the line, I would want another one of her ilk but I've combed through these threads a bit and haven't found a clear recommendation. Many of the breeders listed have not updated their websites in literally years - how would an amateur pet owner ever figure out where to look?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

She looked like a regular golden retriever. Very much like my Jacks (who I love to the moon and back)

Why not go with a good breeder? Everything you describe loving her for is EVERYTHING you should expect in a golden retriever. 

Other thing is websites are not the best way to find breeders who have puppies available. Neither is word of mouth on online forums - particularly those like this one for a variety of reasons. Go through a local golden retriever club. They will have breed referrals.


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

TrevorG said:


> Hello,
> 
> We have a wonderful 8 year old Golden Retriever which has a phenomenal personality, is healthy throughout, and overall the best dog on the planet. We want to get him a friend, and I've been researching Golden Retriever breeders for the last few weeks. The breeder of our current Golden Retriever is no longer in business, but this time, we wanted a Golden Retriever that is lightly colored anyways (often, and sometimes incorrectly referred to as English, English Cream, or White Golden Retriever - let's not get hung up on a technicality here, we all know what is meant), and our current Golden Retriever is medium colored.
> 
> ...


Hi Trevor,
While there are lots of good, reputable golden breeders throughout California and Oregon, I can’t think of one working with European pedigrees that I would recommend. There are lots of people in California breeding these style of dogs for all the wrong reasons, and not doing clearances, etc. I’m from Southern California (but living in Florida for the last few years), so I have a pretty good idea of who to avoid out there. Stacy McMahon (Talini Goldens) is pretty good and does clearances, etc. She used to be in Northern California, but moved to Arizona several years ago. If you’re willing to widen your search a bit, you might find a good one that you can travel to. Personally, I’m willing to fly with the puppy to the new owner if they’re not able to travel themselves to pick the puppy up. For my upcoming litter this fall, I have a couple puppies going to repeat customers in California. So I’ll probably be flying there myself with at least one puppy. I also have all my extended family out there, so it’s not a bad thing for me to have a quick visit to the west coast to deliver puppies.


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## TrevorG (Aug 4, 2018)

Thank you very much for the productive discussion and many responses - very helpful, although, unfortunately, I am not much further now with my search for a reputable breeder. 

We've debunked Golden Meadows Retrievers, and also Once Upon A Dream Kennels. Star Crowned Golden Retrievers I will give a shot, even though the website hasn't been updated in forever. http://meritoriousgoldens.com was suggested to me in a private message, and I will give this a shot as well. Thanks, all!

By the way, I always wonder why asking for a lighter colored Golden Retriever is so frowned upon in the community, as if I asked for something unethical. If it is so unethical to ask for a certain colored dog, isn't it unethical to ask for a certain breed in general? 

Lastly, I don't want to mail-order a dog because I think it is even more difficult to buy a Golden Retriever over phone than an person for a layman. Anyone can set up a great website with plenty of information, and how do I know that the sire is even the sire that was advertised and provided the health certifications for? At an in-person meeting, I have my gut feeling helping me with my decision making.


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## jenherrin (Apr 15, 2018)

nolefan said:


> there is not an ethical hobby breeder of Golden Retrievers on the planet who would ever refer to their dogs as "Cream" or "English"


Thank you!


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

TrevorG said:


> Thank you very much for the productive discussion and many responses - very helpful, although, unfortunately, I am not much further now with my search for a reputable breeder.
> 
> We've debunked Golden Meadows Retrievers, and also Once Upon A Dream Kennels. Star Crowned Golden Retrievers I will give a shot, even though the website hasn't been updated in forever. http://meritoriousgoldens.com was suggested to me in a private message, and I will give this a shot as well. Thanks, all!
> 
> *By the way, I always wonder why asking for a lighter colored Golden Retriever is so frowned upon in the community, as if I asked for something unethical. If it is so unethical to ask for a certain colored dog, isn't it unethical to ask for a certain breed in general? *



Because people who are breeding to improve the breed are not breeding primarily for colour. They are breeding to get the Golden Retriever who conforms to the breed standard, in terms of structure and temperament. They are doing the core clearances as set out by the GRCA to try to ensure the continued health of the breed. People who are breeding primarily for colour are usually just trying to fill a need or want - for which people will pay thousands of dollars. They will often cut corners to make that profit. They have a great "English Cream" girl for whose puppies people will pay $3000 each? They may ignore her hip dysplasia and breed her anyway. Whereas, a responsible breeder who has a beautiful girl, who is a proven conformation champion, and may have an obedience or agility title, too, will remove her dog from a breeding program if she is found at two years old to have hip dysplasia, or a heart defect, or a serious, heritable eye condition. Breeding that dog would probably produce some beautiful dogs - but the breeder would be hurting the overall health of the breed. An ethical breeder would not choose to do that.


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## Mayahellison22 (Aug 15, 2018)

I know a breeder name Gina her club is called Briers Golden retrievers she’s located in Woodburn OREGON. She has a Facebook page also. She’s a wonderful breeder truly is wonderful and will chat with you for hours about her babies. Like someone mentioned a good breeder like her breeders 1-2 times a year. She breeds once I believe. The setup she has for her puppies is really cool and she doesn’t address her dogs as English cream she is very sensitive about that word honestly. She said any golden can have cream colored babies. She also did a background check in this BYB I made the mistake of buying from. She’s really about the breed and her k9data is up to date.


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## jenherrin (Apr 15, 2018)

TrevorG said:


> By the way, I always wonder why asking for a lighter colored Golden Retriever is so frowned upon in the community, as if I asked for something unethical. If it is so unethical to ask for a certain colored dog, isn't it unethical to ask for a certain breed in general?


Trevor, I don't think people here believe it's unethical for dog owners to favor a certain color or other look in a dog; as you point out, it's similar to preferring a certain breed or to preferring large dogs over small dogs or curly-haired dogs over sleek dogs. Rather, what's frowned upon are breeders who engage in unethical breeding practices (thereby hurting the breed as a whole) and false advertising claims to cash in on a color preference.

I have a very light Golden myself, and I love her coloring. My husband and kids are also blonds -- that seems to be the look I'm attracted to.


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## TrevorG (Aug 4, 2018)

Does anyone have any thoughts on Council House Goldens in Council, Idaho? 

www.councilhousegoldens.com

Dam Pedigree: Sage Hollow's Blessed Moments by Council House 
Sire Pedigree: Council House Gabriel 

Thank you very much!


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

They don't appear to comply with the Golden Retriever Club of America's Code of Ethics by posting hip and elbows test results on OFA. Also the heart is done by practitioner and not by a cardiologist as required by the Code of Ethics. Personally I would not want to risk getting a puppy who does not have health clearances on the parents. It's taking a much bigger risk of future health problems and heartache. Puppies of this quality should be in the back yard breeder price.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

The k9data for the dam is incorrect. PennHip no longer gives percentiles and I think with those numbers she'd actually fall into the Moderate risk category. Maybe mild risk, you'd have to see the report. PennHip isn't pass/fail like OFA.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

When she input the PH DI numbers they were not using percentiles (assuming they were input when they were done- 4/17). Even if they HAD been, these DI numbers would be more like 35%tile. Whoever Colleen Godwin is, that's who just recently added the percentile (that is wrong). 90%tile DI numbers are around .30=.35 (or were, when PH was using them). 
So- if you can deduce that Colleen Godwin is involved w this breeding, on the grounds that she lied online, I would dismiss them as a possibility. 

edit: oh- I see- she owns the stud dog and is the breeder of the bitch. Yeah- I would be done w them. People who do stuff like this are taking advantage of puppy buyers' lack of understanding on clearances.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Trevor you asked earlier about why you get such a negative reaction when speaking about the color cream. This breeder is a primary example of why. People who care about the breed are bothered deeply when breeders focus on color instead of health, temperament and solid structure. 

English cream is a marketing term. This term is used almost solely by breeders who do not meet the ethical breeding standards in our country. My own personal tally is about 95% who use this term do not meet the ethical standards for breeding around health. 

It is not about the color, it is about the disservice these breeders are doing the breed, the individual dogs and to the buyers, all for the sake of profit. 

Below are the absolutely dismal health histories on the Council House dogs. I wouldn’t take free puppy from this kind of breeding.


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## kjengold (Jun 19, 2007)

You might want to try Linda Lang (Ambermist) in Watsonville, CA. She was mentored and bred goldens with June Smith (Smithaven) who sadly passed away earlier this year. Linda breeds English type and is highly reputable. I believe Linda is also a member of Norcal GRC.

Another person who breeds English type, but I haven't heard anything about her in years, is Penny Baird (Mirrabooka). She lives in the East Bay. At least she used to.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I addition... PennHIP is not pass or fail, but they do not recommend breeding any dog that has a DI number higher than the breed average. For Goldens, that is .55. At .58 and .62, Counsil House received a rating that is not recommended to be included in breeding programs where improving hip health is goal. To then claim this is a 90% score in our breed or that health is a primary goal at all is just unconscionable.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

And the thing that's an even bigger risk than the moderately risky hips is that neither sire nor dam have an elbow clearance. 
Sage Hollow Goldens appears to be the one whelping this litter, Council House is apparently her mentor and I'm about 99% sure I am going to take the 90%tile off of k9data. It's just wrong to post a lie. Maybe Leslie will see this and do it for me (since she's actually a real life approved k9data person)..


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Trevor in case they might be helpful, here are some visuals of appropriate health certifications.


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## laurenC (Sep 20, 2017)

Glad you have debunked golden meadows....thats a nightmare waiting to happen. good luck in your search. and dont let people deter you. people dont like breeding to cash in on fad in color with no other cares,etc. ethical breeders are looking to further the breed in temperment, health and conformation. Not further a fad. Preference is totally understandable. if you prefer (all things being equal a lighter golden....so be it!) good luck in your search!!


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## ms_sinn (Jan 8, 2019)

kjengold said:


> You might want to try Linda Lang (Ambermist) in Watsonville, CA. She was mentored and bred goldens with June Smith (Smithaven) who sadly passed away earlier this year. Linda breeds English type and is highly reputable. I believe Linda is also a member of Norcal GRC.
> 
> Another person who breeds English type, but I haven't heard anything about her in years, is Penny Baird (Mirrabooka). She lives in the East Bay. At least she used to.


Late to this party- but Penny Baird does still breed, just not very frequently. I had the pleasure of meeting her and 4 of her dogs from different litters at her home (and have met another from a past litter too). She is breeding for temperament, health and lines, and likes them to be on the smaller range of the size standard. She hesitantly used the term "English style" but doesn't breed for color or call them English Creams. 2/5 dogs I've seen in person were lighter like what many call an English Cream. The others were standard gold. 

It's quite a process to get on her waitlist, and she's picky about who she lets on the list, but she doesn't take any money until you go home with a puppy, and I really appreciate all of the research and testing she does, (standard clearances, temperament, she even did some additional genetic testing when a dog was born with a defect several years ago.)


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