# Advice / Help with limited vaccination schedule (adult and puppy)



## Benita (Oct 12, 2011)

Hi guys, 

We adopted our Golden/Chessie Mix almost 3 years ago and I wrote a list with all vaccines he had so far. 


*05/21/10 *
Lepto 4 Way vaccine

*06/11/10 *
Lepto 4 Way vaccine

*03/10/11 *
Rabies vaccine (1 year)
Bordatella Intranasal vaccine
Distemper Combination DA2PP

*03/14/12 *
Distemper Combo/4 way Lepto Booster
Bord. Vac. (Kennel cough) Inj. Booster
Rabies vaccine (1 year)

*04/05/12 *
Lyme vaccine

*04/26/12 *
Lyme vaccine Booster

*11/10/12 *
Bord. Vac. (Kennel cough) Inj. Booster

Now we got a reminder from the vet that we need to bring him in again for a Distemper Combo/4 way Lepto Booster and his Rabies vaccination. I heard of lilited vaccination before but now that we got our puppy our breeder really talked some sense into me. I found a lot of articles and different schedules online and it's actually kinda confusing. I know that I want to switch his Rabies vaccine to 3 years instead of one. But what about the other ones? I heard I shouldn't do boosters at all since you can't bosst an immune dog to more immunity. 

Our puppy got her Distemper / Parvo at the breeder and she told us to give her the next one at 17 weeks. Is there a really good schedule online? 

I don't want to over vaccinate them but I want them to be protected. 

Any thoughts? Thanks a million!


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I would only update the rabies vaccine and request a 3 year. I personally dont vaccinate my current ones for rabies (age and allergies) but if I had an otherwise healthy dog I would just update rabies and thats it. Rabies is law and the boosters last at least 7 years


----------



## Benita (Oct 12, 2011)

A1Malinois said:


> I would only update the rabies vaccine and request a 3 year. I personally dont vaccinate my current ones for rabies (age and allergies) but if I had an otherwise healthy dog I would just update rabies and thats it. Rabies is law and the boosters last at least 7 years


What about all the other ones? Which ones should I continue? And why? 

And what about the puppy?


----------



## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

We follow the Dr. Jean Dodds recommended protocol, it's what our breeder and the two vets we see regularly (different practices) all recommend. The best you can do is be an informed consumer and make the best decision with the information you have from people you trust.

I'll quote the text from the Dodds website verbatim here (bold added for emphasis): "The following vaccine protocol is offered for those dogs where minimal vaccinations are advisable or desirable. The schedule is one I recommend and *should not be interpreted to mean that other protocols recommended by a veterinarian would be less satisfactory. It’s a matter of professional judgment and choice*."

Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Dr. Dodds' 2012 Canine Vaccination Protocol


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

The bordatella vaccines and leptospirosis aren't nessesary nor do they fully work, the Lyme is arguable, but a dog in good health will have a hard time getting sick from Lyme. I do yearly titres for rabies to get an exemption and as long as my vet approves of the levels I don't have to follow the ridiculous 3 year law, I also titre for distemper and parvovirus, the boosters will usually last their whole life 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Mine are all vaccinated for rabies, distemper, kennel cough, lepto, and Lyme. My beagle vaccinated annually for distemper and every two years for rabies lived to be17years old. The vaccines you give have to do with where you live...


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Tuco said:


> The bordatella vaccines and *leptospirosis aren't nessesary* nor do they fully work, the Lyme is arguable, but a dog in good health will have a hard time getting sick from Lyme. I do yearly titres for rabies to get an exemption and as long as my vet approves of the levels I don't have to follow the ridiculous 3 year law, I also titre for distemper and parvovirus, the boosters will usually last their whole life
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


As someone who nursed a dog back from leptospirosis I disagree that vaccine is not necessary if you live in an area where lepto is prevalent.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Benita said:


> What about all the other ones? Which ones should I continue? And why?
> 
> And what about the puppy?


For the puppies I do 1 booster for distemper/parvo at 8 weeks then again at 16 weeks and a rabies 2 weeks later. I rebooster everything a year later and after that I only keep up rabies (though im considering no doing thaet rebooster at 1 year). I do not do kennel cough, lyme, lepto etc



Tuco said:


> The bordatella vaccines and leptospirosis aren't nessesary nor do they fully work, the Lyme is arguable, but a dog in good health will have a hard time getting sick from Lyme. I do yearly titres for rabies to get an exemption and as long as my vet approves of the levels I don't have to follow the ridiculous 3 year law, I also titre for distemper and parvovirus, the boosters will usually last their whole life
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Tuco, your vet can approve the titer results however they are not acceptable. If your dog bites, and he is not vaccinated the law will be enforced. I already have been through this when my old vet tried to sell me a titer and said it was good for 2 years. I called the ministry of health and long term care, spoke to the veterinarian there who basically told me 

1. Either vaccinate
2. Get a medical exemption from your vet as to why your dog cannot be vaccinated (must be for a medical reason)
3. *some* cases they will allow a titer test from a vet that states the dog cannot be vaccinated for this health concern until the titer level drops.

I have the ladies contact info if you would like to email her for more details on the laws in Ontario for that.


----------



## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Tuco said:


> The bordatella vaccines and leptospirosis aren't nessesary nor do they fully work, the Lyme is arguable, but a dog in good health will have a hard time getting sick from Lyme. I do yearly titres for rabies to get an exemption and as long as my vet approves of the levels I don't have to follow the ridiculous 3 year law, I also titre for distemper and parvovirus, the boosters will usually last their whole life
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Please be kind enough to give us pointers to references to back up this advice. I'm very concerned that someone following it could lose a dog to one of these diseases.

Thank you.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

GoldensGirl said:


> Please be kind enough to give us pointers to references to back up this advice. I'm very concerned that someone following it could lose a dog to one of these diseases.
> 
> Thank you.


My dogs both got kennel cough 3 months after being vaccinated for it. My one has lung damage from it. Kennel Cough vaccines are like the flu shot, theres to many strains out there of Kennel Cough for the vaccine to be effective. So lets say theres 85 strains of Kennel Cough (Bordetalla) the vaccine only covers 2....so whats the point?

So many reactions with lyme and lepto for me to want to risk it.


----------



## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

A1Malinois said:


> My dogs both got kennel cough 3 months after being vaccinated for it. My one has lung damage from it. Kennel Cough vaccines are like the flu shot, theres to many strains out there of Kennel Cough for the vaccine to be effective. So lets say theres 85 strains of Kennel Cough (Bordetalla) the vaccine only covers 2....so whats the point?
> 
> So many reactions with lyme and lepto for me to want to risk it.


I understand your perspective, but that is not the same as providing references. What I'm looking for is scientific studies that show the value of the vaccines or the contrary. There must be reasons why so many vets recommend these vaccines. By the way, kennel cough is the least of my concerns among the list of vaccines suggested as unnecessary.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I strongly urge that you not take the advice of random people on an internet forum telling you that this or that vaccine isn't necessarily, willy-nilly, with no scientific references. People only can sound off their big ol' opinions and don't have to face the consequences when your dog gets sick after you've followed their irresponsible advice.

Bring any alternative plans you find from _legitimate_ sources and discuss them with you vet, but for the love of pete, don't listen to internet forum chatter about how scary vaccines are and how this or that one is extra scary or unnecessary.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

GoldensGirl said:


> I understand your perspective, but that is not the same as providing references. What I'm looking for is scientific studies that show the value of the vaccines or the contrary. There must be reasons why so many vets recommend these vaccines. By the way, kennel cough is the least of my concerns among the list of vaccines suggested as unnecessary.


Money? I read somewhere about 47% of a veterinary clinics income is through vaccines. Correct me if im wrong..


----------



## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Your dog may have gotten a one year Rabies vaccine the second time because you were overdue. In my state and several others, the vet must call the vaccine a one year if you are even ONE DAY overdue!

For the other vaccines, at my clinic we do DHPP every third year (after the one year booster). Lepto is yearly. Bordetella and Lyme are "lifestyle" vaccines. Bord for dogs that board, groom, or go to classes, etc. Lyme for dogs that might be exposed.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> Money? I read somewhere about 47% of a veterinary clinics income is through vaccines. Correct me if im wrong..


I find that incredibly hard to believe. Of the money that I have paid to vets over the last decade, only a teeny fraction was for vaccines. I have paid vastly, vastly more for exams, well-dog bloodwork, and emergencies over the years. Even assuming the vet's margins are high on vaccines and low on bloodwork and emergency care (though you said "income," not "profit"), I'd be amazed if a vet took in even 10% off vaccines.

If vets wanted to make money, they'd skip vaccines. You can make a lot more treating a puppy for parvo ($3000 easy) than you can by giving him a $20 vaccine.

"I read somewhere" does not cut it in a conversation about science or the motivations of vets.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

IowaGold said:


> Your dog may have gotten a one year Rabies vaccine the second time because you were overdue. In my state and several others, the vet must call the vaccine a one year if you are even ONE DAY overdue!
> 
> For the other vaccines, at my clinic we do DHPP every third year (after the one year booster). Lepto is yearly. Bordetella and Lyme are "lifestyle" vaccines. Bord for dogs that board, groom, or go to classes, etc. Lyme for dogs that might be exposed.


See, I dont like that. 1 day is not going to make a difference? Its not like magically the body says "Heeeeey, im one day over due POOF immunity gone..."? I remember my Rottie was 3 hours over due and my vet said I had to start the series over. Never did


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I prefer to use a topical preventive for ticks rather than the Lyme vaccine, because Lyme is only one of the TBDs dogs can pick up. (I do not do lepto despite it being in my area as a pup of my breeding reacted badly to it, and many more serovars are present in my area than are covered by the vaccine right now). I personally run titres on my dogs for distemper, parvo, with the encouragement of my vet. I do vaccinate every three years for rabies to be in compliance with the law. I do not want my dog euthanized and his head dissected for pathology should there ever be an incident where they were bitten by a wild animal while hunting (which did happen to one of my dogs two years ago--the bite, not the dissection!)

For really good research on vaccine protocols check out Dr. Ronald Schultz's work. He is the research behind Dr. Dodd's recommendations, and is the one heading the Rabies Challenge study. He works out of the University of Wisconsin, and has some very interesting suggestions for breeders to help optimize puppies' responses to vaccination.
What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines
https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/vax.htm
The Truth About Pet Vaccinations | Part 1


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

actually you do not pay just for vaccines - those are always a portion of the bill. Office visit, well exam etc are also part of the bill even if you only went to the vet for the vaccine. I don't gripe about those bills but they are regular well visits that they cash in for, along with the vaccines. Many people would not go in if it wasn't for the scheduled vaccine.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I find that incredibly hard to believe. Of the money that I have paid to vets over the last decade, only a teeny fraction was for vaccines. I have paid vastly, vastly more for exams, well-dog bloodwork, and emergencies over the years. Even assuming the vet's margins are high on vaccines and low on bloodwork and emergency care (though you said "income," not "profit), I'd be amazed if a vet took in even 10% off vaccines.
> 
> If vets wanted to make money, they'd skip vaccines. You can make a lot more treating a puppy for parvo ($3000 easy) than you can by giving him a $20 vaccine.
> 
> "I read somewhere" does not cut it in a conversation about science or the motivations of vets.


I will have to find where I read that, I am just to tired to go searching all my book marks now. $20 for a vaccine? Wow, at my vet its $120 and thats the cheapest vet. Anywhere else its $150


----------



## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> I strongly urge that you not take the advice of random people on an internet forum telling you that this or that vaccine isn't necessarily, willy-nilly, with no scientific references. People only can sound off their big ol' opinions and don't have to face the consequences when your dog get sick after you've followed their irresponsible advice.
> 
> Bring any alternative plans you find from _legitimate_ sources and discuss them with you vet, but for the love of pete, don't listen to internet forum chatter about how scary vaccines are and how this or that one is extra scary or unnecessarily.


Absolutely agree, because what's best for one dog might not be best for another. Too many confounding factors. See below regarding vaccine intervals. 

Roth & Spickler (2010) concluded that "A vaccine's efficacy and DOI (duration of immunity) are determined by factors associated with the vaccine, animal and environment. Whether an animal will become ill or not depends on a balance between the level of immunity at challenge, and the dose and virulence of pathogens to which the animal is exposed. Many of the companion animal viral vaccines have been shown to produce at least 3 years of effective immunity when used in healthy animals under experimental conditions. Veterinarians need to assess the risks and benefits of vaccination for each disease in each animal when making vaccine decisions" (p. 188). 

That one was in _Animal Health Research Reviews_ 11(_2_), 165-190. 

Can you seek a second opinion of another vet in your area? It seems like maybe you don't fully trust the one you have.

For scholarly research, you can go to googlescholar.com and search for vaccine protocols. You'll find lots of recent articles that tell both sides of the story. Many of them are open access. It's definitely good to be involved in decisions that affect your dog's health, ask lots of questions, and understand why you are being advised the way that you are.


----------



## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

@ Benita

I have only titered my 5.5 year old since 2 years of Age for Distemper/Parvo. He gets the three year rabies vaccine. I do bordatella every 6 months because of classes - my vets prefer and believe the intranasal version is better. My breeder of my puppy recommends what I normally do.

Having said this, I would suggest you look at the recommendation of VERY well respected vets - Jean Dodd and Ron Schultz on vaccine protocols. 

This is NOT internet chatter but information that other Forum members have referred to.

Dr-Dodds-ChangingVaccProtocol 

The Truth About Pet Vaccinations | Part 1


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> actually you do not pay just for vaccines - those are always a portion of the bill. Office visit, well exam etc are also part of the bill even if you only went to the vet for the vaccine. I don't gripe about those bills but they are regular well visits that they cash in for, along with the vaccines. Many people would not go in if it wasn't for the scheduled vaccine.


If you got a well exam, you did not go to the office just for the vaccine. I could count the number of vaccine-only exams I've been to in the last decade on one hand.


----------



## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

I'm not sure if you're looking to references for specific schedules, or if you have already found some schedules and you're curious about what others are doing...so here is my vet's schedule and what we do!

3 DHPP Vaccines at 8 weeks, 12 weeks, 16 weeks. Then annual booster. Then once every 3 years. This is kind of their standard practice, but they are very delayed-vaccine and titer testing friendly if it seems necessary. I'm on board with this.

Rabies we did around 20 weeks, annual booster, then every 3 years. 

We skipped Lepto and Lyme because we are not hugely concerned about it based on our area and activities. He has never had either. Admittedly, lepto side effects have given me some pause but ultimately, if we lived in a high risk area, we'd do it and then just stay on top of titers. 

We did bordetella at 6 months and now booster yearly. I wouldn't be surprised of most houses in our area have 2-4 dogs... you can barely go to the grocery store here without coming into contact with a few dogs, so the risk is there even just going on walks... plus daycare and training classes are a big part of our life. I know there are gaps in it's effectiveness, but the peace of mind is nice and Iorek reacts fine to it. 

I don't feel educated enough to say whether or not this is an "ideal" schedule, but as an anecdote, it worked just fine for us and it seems to work fine for many. Dr. Dodd's vaccine protocol seems to work great for many too... I think our schedule was actually pretty similar, bordetella aside. Now that our dog has started displaying atypical neurological issues (head tremors), we will keep an eye on any correlation between vaccine boosters and an increase in tremors, but I do not expect it to be a significant problem.


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Dallas Gold said:


> As someone who nursed a dog back from leptospirosis I disagree that vaccine is not necessary if you live in an area where lepto is prevalent.


It covers very few strains of leptospirosis and lasts very briefly with a higher than usual occurrence of serious side effects, chances are that that dog you nursed had one of the strains that wasnt covered


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

GoldensGirl said:


> Please be kind enough to give us pointers to references to back up this advice. I'm very concerned that someone following it could lose a dog to one of these diseases.
> 
> Thank you.


They both have higher serious adverse reaction rate, and cover a fraction of its strains.
(Dr.Ronald Shultz) " kennel cough is not a vaccine preventable disease because of the complex factors associated with the disease. Furthermore this is often a mild to moderate self limiting disease. I refer to it as the canine cold" 

Patricia Jordan DVM ""leptospirosis is a very adverse event associated vaccine and the damnedest thing is that that the vaccines simply do not work. Dr. Ronald Shultz ( the worlds foremost independent authority on canine vaccines) hates to see them in with anything else and in puppies, advises that they are completely finished with the viral inoculations before getting a vaccine against leptospirosis which he neither recommends not advocates --- even in leptospirosis endemic areas" separate quote " I have seen older dogs go into kidney failure within two days of receiving a leptospirosis vaccine" 

Dr Shultz also advises against using the Lyme vaccine and instead using a preferably natural, tick preventative. 

Dr. Littman found that 95% of dogs exposed to Lyme disease "simply do not get sick"





Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Tuco said:


> It covers very few strains of leptospirosis and lasts very briefly with a higher than usual occurrence of serious side effects, chances are that that dog you nursed had one of the strains that wasnt covered
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'm so glad you know so much about my dog- at the time, in 2005, none of the veterinarians vaccinated here in Dallas, so no, my dog was not vaccinated at the time he contracted one of the strains of leptospirosis. Please, in the future, do not assume anything about one of my dogs, please.


----------



## Benita (Oct 12, 2011)

A1Malinois said:


> I would only update the rabies vaccine and request a 3 year. I personally dont vaccinate my current ones for rabies (age and allergies) but if I had an otherwise healthy dog I would just update rabies and thats it. Rabies is law and the boosters last at least 7 years


 
Thank you so much for your help guys!


----------



## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I find this so confusing, what should i do for my 10 year olds, my 2 yr.old, my 3 year old?


----------



## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Vaccinations are a really hot and controversial topic and no one on here is going to be able to tell you how you should or shouldn't handle vaccinating your pets. I personally think the best decision can be made my consulting a trusted vet (or multiple), your breeder, and educating yourself with scientific research. My breeder has been breeding and raising dogs for decades and has a lot of experience with fantastic vets so I am lucky that I was able to rely on her 1. for vet references, and 2. a vaccination protocol best to follow for my dogs. 

There are so many different things that go into making an informed decision about vaccinations. 
Is your pet 100% healthy?
Has their immune system been compromised?
What's your location?
Are there any outbreaks near you?
Are there a lot of strays in your community?
Is your dog older/sick?
etc. 

There are pros and cons to limited vaccinations and you have to figure out what's most important to you. Research is showing that vaccinosis is a serious issue and that there are many chronic and acute diseases that are caused by vaccines. Does this affect every pet? No. If you don't vaccinate with optional vaccinations can your pet get the disease? Yes. So there are risks on both ends and you'll only make the best decision by consulting those trusted well educated individuals who know your dog and you circumstances.

Here's an article that consists of vets talking about vaccine protocols. Other people have listed some great links as well.
» Vets On Vaccines 

This is a really tough subject because a lot of people have lost pets from diseases that are protected by vaccination and I know that if I had that experience I would probably be on the other side of the fence on this one. But I had my 1 year old cat die of canine leukemia - a common known reaction from cat vaccination. So for me, I weighed the pros and cons and because of my area and the vets/breeder around me I chose a limited vaccine protocol.

I do 2 sets of Distemper/Parvo/Adenovirus 8weeks-16weeks and Rabies between 5-6 months (then followed by law). I will titer and rebooster Distemper/Parvo/etc as needed. I do not do lyme, lepto, or kennel cough. These are unique to my situation though because of where I live, etc. If I lived in the middle of the woods (greater chance of lyme - greater chance of rabies) or somewhere where there was a high number of strays and sick animals (greater chance of lepto) my decision would be different. 

Here are some of the articles that my breeder included in my take home binder (the binder is over 400 pages long, she's great! )
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/Ado...d Safe Vaccination Programs for Dogs 2000.pdf
Science of Vaccine Damage

Some books my breeder recommended:
Shock to the System - Catherine O'Driscoll
What Vets don't tell you about Vaccines - Catherine O'Driscoll


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

goldensrbest said:


> I find this so confusing, what should i do for my 10 year olds, my 2 yr.old, my 3 year old?


Talk to your vet. Tell him or her that you've read some concerning information online and that you want to know that you're giving the most up-to-date protocols to protect your dogs. And then don't sweat the scare stories people post online without sources.


----------



## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

A1Malinois said:


> Money? I read somewhere about 47% of a veterinary clinics income is through vaccines. Correct me if im wrong..


My vet has a "pet care plus" program. If you bring in your pet annually (or 2x/year for seniors) all core vaccines are free.

To the OP, I only get mine rabies and the distemper/parvo combo. They get a booster at 1 year and then every 3 years after that. We quit distemper/parvo around 9-10yrs. Rabies is by law so I continue that one.
I don't board my dogs and they don't do dog parks so no bordatella, lepto and Lymes are not prevalent here so I don't do those. Some people here will do the rattlesnake vaccine but I've heard to many horror stories to the vaccine and my dogs aren't high risk since they're not out running around in the bush.
This is something to discuss with your vet.

ETA, I do the parvo every 3 weeks until 16 weeks then rabies a few weeks after the last parvo. Then booster at 1 year and every 3 after that.
I personally try to never give one shot at a time after having a cat have a severe reaction after getting multiple vaccines. I also try to do vaccines in the dead of winter when most allergens are lower so to lessen the chance if a reaction-that was my breeders suggestion and it makes a lot of sense to me.


----------



## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

This reminds me very much of discussions regarding vaccinating children--lots of emotion tied to the topic (understandably so, children and dogs like ours are precious).

I will claim an above average understanding of physiology and immunology than the average person on the street--and it was still a lot of work deciding about vaccines. With my kids, I did _tons_ of research regarding vaccines, and what I found was that many pediatricians simply quoted the party line on vaccines from the manufacturer and from their schooling. Often I found I was vastly more knowledgeable about recent vaccine studies, rates of reactions, prevalence of the disease vaccinating against, and the specific physiology behind vaccination. I interviewed several pediatricians before we found one I felt I could trust.

I think this underscores the need for a relationship with your vet--IMO more of a partnership. If a vet (or any healthcare professional) can't give me more than the party line, or isn't interested in discussion at all, I move on. I think the age of accepting healthcare professionals word as the end all be all is over--and thank goodness! Most healthcare professionals know this, and welcome the discussion. (And I _am_ a healthcare professional.)

My only input to the vaccine schedule discussion is this: Understand why you're getting each vaccine when you're getting them--don't simply accept the "mystery syringe" at your vet visits. I ask for the actual vial label, or a copy of it for lot # and expiration date purposes. (Not just handwritten info.) I also ask for single dose vials when possible as they often have far less preservatives (if any). 

Above all, if you refuse a vaccine, be sure you're making an informed decision, and be prepared to deal with the consequences of your dog getting that particular disease.


----------



## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I think it is good to talk about this on here,of course you talk to your vet, but we all know ,they can try to get a person to do more than is needed, it can happen, i like getting advice on here,then checking on things myself, i hope this is not going to be a rule against this type of thing.


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Dallas Gold said:


> I'm so glad you know so much about my dog- at the time, in 2005, none of the veterinarians vaccinated here in Dallas, so no, my dog was not vaccinated at the time he contracted one of the strains of leptospirosis. Please, in the future, do not assume anything about one of my dogs, please.


Not once did I say that your dog was vaccinated what I said was that even if he had gotten the vaccine, it was more likely than not that the strain wouldn't have been covered


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

:appl::appl::appl: very well said, thank you for this.



drofen said:


> This reminds me very much of discussions regarding vaccinating children--lots of emotion tied to the topic (understandably so, children and dogs like ours are precious).
> 
> I will claim an above average understanding of physiology and immunology than the average person on the street--and it was still a lot of work deciding about vaccines. With my kids, I did _tons_ of research regarding vaccines, and what I found was that many pediatricians simply quoted the party line on vaccines from the manufacturer and from their schooling. Often I found I was vastly more knowledgeable about recent vaccine studies, rates of reactions, prevalence of the disease vaccinating against, and the specific physiology behind vaccination. *I interviewed several pediatricians before we found one I felt I could trust.*
> 
> ...


----------



## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Tuco said:


> The bordatella vaccines and leptospirosis aren't nessesary nor do they fully work, the Lyme is arguable, but a dog in good health will have a hard time getting sick from Lyme. I do yearly titres for rabies to get an exemption and as long as my vet approves of the levels I don't have to follow the ridiculous 3 year law, I also titre for distemper and parvovirus, the boosters will usually last their whole life
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I do not disagree with the fact that Lyme vaccines have a lot of controversy and I personally, as a breeder do not recommend them. However, it is simply not true that a healthy dog will not become sick from Lyme disease or any other tick borne disease. Tick borne illnesses are a real worry and dogs do get very sick from them.
Tick-Borne Disease FAQ

The risk of tick borne illnesses varies from where you live but please do not think that these are not something to be concerned about. They are serious diseases with serious complications for the dogs who get them. Field trainers are VERY careful with dogs they are training and trialing for this very reason.


----------



## Seagodess (Dec 6, 2012)

> I know that I want to switch his Rabies vaccine to 3 years instead of one.


You may want to look at the requirments for your state for this. In some states it is required by law that dogs get a rabies shot every year. 
I dont know anything about the other ones.


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

hvgoldens4 said:


> I do not disagree with the fact that Lyme vaccines have a lot of controversy and I personally, as a breeder do not recommend them. However, it is simply not true that a healthy dog will not become sick from Lyme disease or any other tick borne disease. Tick borne illnesses are a real worry and dogs do get very sick from them.
> Tick-Borne Disease FAQ
> 
> The risk of tick borne illnesses varies from where you live but please do not think that these are not something to be concerned about. They are serious diseases with serious complications for the dogs who get them. Field trainers are VERY careful with dogs they are training and trialing for this very reason.


A healthy dog with a strong immune system can get it, it's just much harder


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Lyme is nasty to deal with. I and my friends train and hunt in Lyme vector areas here in Ontario, and multiple of our dogs (including a pup I bred) have come up with Lyme and required treatment. The ones who were caught early and treated aggressively have been fine, but a couple of others were not diagnosed properly and went without proper treatment for some time. They have recurrent flareups. These are fit, active, top-condition hunting and hunt test dogs. I use Advantix to keep the ticks off my dogs, and am cautious about my exposure as well when we are in those areas. A longtime, highly respected Golden breeder in the province is badly Lyme affected because her doctors insisted for years she could not have Lyme. It has had a devastating effect on her quality of life. Only now are medical officials in Ontario beginning to acknowledge that we do have a growing problem with it here. The vets have been on the problem much more quickly, and I know mine will treat aggressively because of the effects of long-term chronic infection.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I can't tell you how many otherwise healthy dogs I know who have died from kidney failure due to lyme disease. Flip's aunt died from that just this past year.


----------



## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I called my vets,a bit ago,to make appointment for spirit to get his vacines, this was a first i had been asked if i plan on doing all them,or just some, and i can speak to the vet about that, a breath of fresh air, the option to do that ,instead of saying he is due for this many vacines,and no option, it was a new approch.


----------



## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

People have to use common sense here. There is nothing wrong with titering to make sure that your dog is up to date on the core vaccines without using vaccinations. But over-vaccination, in and of itself is not what is causing our goldens to perish at young ages.

I recently lost our 16 year old foundation bitch. She had been given every vaccination, including lyme and KC when she was younger because that was what was done. I stopped giving her vaccinations other than her rabies when she was about 7. But, my point is that she had them and lived a long and healthy life. I also have 2 of her almost 14 year old kids and another who will be 12 in a couple weeks. They were all given many more vaccines as young dogs than is common now.

You cannot ignore the risks that ticks, parvo, distemper and all the other canine diseases carry. A puppy with Parvo died at my vets office last summer. It had been vaccinated but obviously, mom's immunity was still in effect, the vaccine failed and the puppy was left susceptible to the disease and perished.

The reason for multiple puppy vaccines is that while mom's immunity is in effect, it will basically cancel out any vaccinations given. Mom's immunity can last as long as 16 weeks and it will vary from puppy to puppy because of the maternal antibodies that each puppy recieves from the colostrum.

These are discussions you should be having with your veterinarian. There is nothing wrong with doing research and having information. But, please do not put your dogs at risk because of misinformation.

You also need to know the state laws for the state in which you live in. Rabies vaccination is required in every state and there are still a few states left that require annual rabies vaccinations. It isn't worth it to literally put your dog's life at stake. All it takes is for someone to say your dog bit them, have them not be up to date on their rabies vaccine and it could literally cost the dog its life.

There are many things that have been found and are being found to be issues with our dogs. Personally, early spay/neuters are much more of an issue to me than vaccinating for core vaccines.


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> I can't tell you how many otherwise healthy dogs I know who have died from kidney failure due to lyme disease. Flip's aunt died from that just this past year.


It is a very troublesome side effect. Lyme nephritis is one of the issues that has been plaguing Karin. Half the time when I see her she cannot even eat normally. My friend's dogs who have had flare-ups have struggled with lameness and aching joints that interfered with their ability to work. One would be so exhausted that he could not even mark--this was a Grand Master Hunter dog who had passed a National Master. They knew to get him on doxy when his marking went off because it meant the Lyme was active.


----------



## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

I, for one, am appalled by some of the claims people are making on here without anything to back them up. 

Until you have worked in a vet clinic in an epidemic area for lyme disease (or any other disease for that matter) you don't know how many people WISH they could have gone back and time and get the lyme vaccine for their dogs. I've seen quite a few dogs with lyme nephritis and now even recently, two dogs that may have developed congestive heart failure that lyme may have possibly played a part in (these two dogs had no previous heart issue that a normal practitioner ever picked up on. I can't say, though, that if they had gone to a cardiologist, that there may or may not have been something underlying). 

Every week, we see quite a few dogs that are otherwise healthy, showing clinical symptoms of lyme disease. Limping, fever, not eating... etc. I for one, do vaccinate my dogs for it. No, the vaccine is not 100% effective, and yes, we do have other lyme diseases in our area including Anaplasmosis, Ehrlichia, and even Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever from time to time. I keep frontline on them year round and I am also checking constantly for ticks.

TLDR;
Go by the known facts and know your area. Find a vet you can trust and make the vaccine decisions for your dog based on that.


----------



## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Tuco said:


> They both have higher serious adverse reaction rate, and cover a fraction of its strains.
> (Dr.Ronald Shultz) " kennel cough is not a vaccine preventable disease because of the complex factors associated with the disease. Furthermore this is often a mild to moderate self limiting disease. I refer to it as the canine cold"
> 
> Patricia Jordan DVM ""leptospirosis is a very adverse event associated vaccine and the damnedest thing is that that the vaccines simply do not work. Dr. Ronald Shultz ( the worlds foremost independent authority on canine vaccines) hates to see them in with anything else and in puppies, advises that they are completely finished with the viral inoculations before getting a vaccine against leptospirosis which he neither recommends not advocates --- even in leptospirosis endemic areas" separate quote " I have seen older dogs go into kidney failure within two days of receiving a leptospirosis vaccine"
> ...


When people come here seeking advice, they are often ill-prepared to evaluate the posts in a thread. Responsible members can help by providing the kind of evidence that helps a newcomer learn where to find information and to think issues through carefully.

That said, it would be good for you to provide links to these so that people can read for themselves and look at the references. I, for one, don't know who these people are and there is a great deal of pure garbage on the Internet and in print. I am NOT saying that the people you cite are in that category, but I don't know them and I take nobody's word on matters that affect my dogs' health until I can check their credentials, see how and by whom their publications have been reviewed, who funded their research, etc. I manage research for a living and I have seen enough bad research to turn me into quite a skeptic.

I am troubled when any person here makes assertions as if they were the leading authority on a subject, without providing any explanation of what qualifies them as such. It is one thing to express an opinion qualified with "In my experience..." or "I think that..." and another to make assertions as if those opinions were facts. 

For example, if anyone here asked me about breeding, it would be appropriate for me to state that I have never intentionally bred any animal and that the only kittens ever born in my home were the result of rescuing a cat that was already pregnant at the time. Even so, I might point people to GRF threads about breeding, and - in my role as a moderator - suggest that they might post in a particular forum to find answers. In areas where I do have expertise, such as dealing with dogs that have seizures, I am still careful to point out that I am not a veterinarian, that my experience comes from fighting for one dog, and that I did a great deal of research in that process. I still do my best to provide pointers to the original research so that people can learn for themselves and I encourage people to find a good veterinary neurologist to properly treat the dog having seizures.

Thanks again.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I do vaccinate my crew fully, and especially with lepto so common here. Any protection, I will take it bc it is so terribly sad when you see the pain lepto dogs experience. It is an awful disease. In Lyme endemic areas, healthy dogs and healthy people both become infected when bitten and the tick remains embedded. Lyme nephritis is so devestating a dx. I hope all dogs and puppies are fully vaccinated- especially if they are going to play with mine!


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Rainheart, ou might want to try switching to Advantix. I started to notice that FrontlinePlus was not working for my dogs any more. I do not vaccinate for Lyme, but use the topical religiously through the warm months and have my dogs tested every year. A friend's dog got anaplasmosis from a tick picked up at a FT in NY. The heart failure does not surprise me--the disease does seem to focus on highly vascularized organs. I do not want those creepy crawlers on my dogs at all!


----------



## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

sterregold said:


> Rainheart, ou might want to try switching to Advantix. I started to notice that FrontlinePlus was not working for my dogs any more. I do not vaccinate for Lyme, but use the topical religiously through the warm months and have my dogs tested every year. A friend's dog got anaplasmosis from a tick picked up at a FT in NY. The heart failure does not surprise me--the disease does seem to focus on highly vascularized organs. I have also noted a lot of cancer deaths in the dogs I knew who had chronic Lyme. I do not want those creepy crawlers on my dogs at all!


I am not finding any ticks on my dogs at the moment, so frontline seems to be doing it's job. I have only ever found one tick on Beamer and it was on the side of his face! But, I do agree we have seen some people who say frontline just isn't doing the job anymore. We are suggesting Vectra 3D at my vet. I have yet to use it on my dogs, personally.


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Maybe we have super-ticks! Since I switched to the Advantix I have not found an attached tick on my dogs. I did find a couple with Frontline which is why I switched. I don't think the Vectra is available here. (I had to get the Frontline Plus in the US as well--we only have regular Frontline which does not have the key tick-killer.)


----------



## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

Rainheart said:


> I, for one, am appalled by some of the claims people are making on here without anything to back them up.
> 
> Until you have worked in a vet clinic in an epidemic area for lyme disease (or any other disease for that matter) you don't know how many people WISH they could have gone back and time and get the lyme vaccine for their dogs. I've seen quite a few dogs with lyme nephritis and now even recently, two dogs that may have developed congestive heart failure that lyme may have possibly played a part in (these two dogs had no previous heart issue that a normal practitioner ever picked up on. I can't say, though, that if they had gone to a cardiologist, that there may or may not have been something underlying).
> 
> ...


First I want to say I mean this respectfully as possible, I simply don't have any interest in starting an ugly argument. However I feel what I have to say adds to the topic at hand.

Secondly, regarding the CHF you may be seeing in animals with Lyme could easily be connected to the Lyme nephritis. Renal failure and CHF often go hand in hand in a classic "chicken or the egg" pattern.

Next, I'd like to ask about the "lots of dogs, every week" with Lyme like symptoms. How many is a lot?

Lyme often goes long undiagnosed because it mimics so many other issues--so I would respectfully ask if some of those "lots of dogs" may just have primary symptoms, not secondary to Lyme. What number of those dogs have actually been diagnosed with Lyme?

I think we have to be careful as people who work in healthcare (be it for animals or humans.) We can easily be swayed by a skewed world view. For example, my wife has been a pediatric critical care nurse for nearly 11 years at a nationally recognized children's hospital. When we had kids, her job became infinitely more difficult. Every cough, sneeze, and fart looked just like the life threatening disease she took care of on her last shift at work. Even to this day our son (nicknamed Destructo) has bruises continuously--knees, shins, elbows, ribs--and it was just a week ago that she had a freak out moment thinking he might have leukemia. When I worked at a Level I teaching hospital, nearly every patient I took care of was on the brink of death. But that was a function of the fact that they were patients no other hospital would touch. If I based my worldview on what I see now at work, I would believe that every diabetic would be losing limbs, having strokes and heart attacks. The fact of the matter is there are hundreds of thousands of people in my community that have diabetes, but manage it well and live happy fulfilled lives. I could go on with any health concern that walks into our ICU. We see the worst of the worst, day in, day out. 

I would respectfully submit that for every dog you see that has been diagnosed with Lyme, there are likely hundreds of thousands out there who are completely healthy, who may have been exposed to Lyme and fought it off, or were vaccinated, or unvaccinated.

What I'm _not _saying is that Lyme isn't a serious health concern. I just want to respectfully caution you as one healthcare worker to another, to guard against an alarmist worldview.


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

GoldensGirl said:


> When people come here seeking advice, they are often ill-prepared to evaluate the posts in a thread. Responsible members can help by providing the kind of evidence that helps a newcomer learn where to find information and to think issues through carefully.
> 
> That said, it would be good for you to provide links to these so that people can read for themselves and look at the references. I, for one, don't know who these people are and there is a great deal of pure garbage on the Internet and in print. I am NOT saying that the people you cite are in that category, but I don't know them and I take nobody's word on matters that affect my dogs' health until I can check their credentials, see how and by whom their publications have been reviewed, who funded their research, etc. I manage research for a living and I have seen enough bad research to turn me into quite a skeptic.
> 
> ...


If I had linking as an option I would, my phone has a copy and pasting issue and most of these links have a 40 letter line of letters im not going to spend 40 mins copying it. so the best I can do Is quote and people have the option to google the quote and in at least the situations above you can see the context and source of the information. I never said anyone was a leading authority, that was a part of the quote, many people in the vaccination discussions know of dr Shultz and Dodds as they are very significant figures in the vet vaccine debate. And at the very least people can search. You can make the point that some people may not search and use a forum as their only source, which is ridiculous in itself, if people are using a forum as their only source and not looking up to confirm the info, they have other problems.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

drofen said:


> I would respectfully submit that for every dog you see that has been diagnosed with Lyme, there are likely hundreds of thousands out there who are completely healthy, who may have been exposed to Lyme and fought it off, or were vaccinated, or unvaccinated.


I generally agree with you, especially about the idea of not becoming alarmist over things, but I think your area can a have a huge effect on your perception of Lyme. Here in southern CT, Lyme ground zero, we all know family members, friends, and colleagues who've had a positive Lyme test after experiencing a significant health crisis. It can be very hard to tell if somebody's symptoms are actually caused by the Lyme or if many of us simply carry around low-grade infections that are found as we search for answers even though they aren't actually the cause of the health problems.

And many of us also know a family who lost a beloved dog to Lyme nephritis. I'm up to three on that awful score. And I know literally dozens, including two of my own, who've tested positive for one of the TBDs.

So while I don't know the specific rates in VA, I read Rainheart's post with great sympathy and recognition. I can hardly imagine not vaccinating my dogs for Lyme, knowing how many people and dogs catch it around here and how many suffer pretty severe symptoms.


----------



## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> I generally agree with you, especially about the idea of not becoming alarmist over things, but I think your area can a have a huge effect on your perception of Lyme. Here in southern CT, Lyme ground zero, we all know family members, friends, and colleagues who've had a positive Lyme test after experiencing a significant health crisis. It can be very hard to tell if somebody's symptoms are actually caused by the Lyme or if many of us simply carry around low-grade infections that are found as we search for answers but aren't actually the cause of the health problems.
> 
> And many of us also know a family who lost a beloved dog to Lyme nephritis. I'm up to three on that awful score. And I know literally dozens, including two of my own, who've tested positive for one of the TBDs.
> 
> So while I don't know the specific rates in VA, I read Rainheart's post with great sympathy and recognition. I can hardly imagine not vaccinating my dogs for Lyme, knowing how many people and dogs catch it around here and how many suffer pretty severe symptoms.


Point taken. 

I'm considering moving up to NE, so this is great info.


----------



## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Tuco said:


> If I had linking as an option I would, my phone has a copy and pasting issue and most of these links have a 40 letter line of letters im not going to spend 40 mins copying it. so the best I can do Is quote and people have the option to google the quote and in at least the situations above you can see the context and source of the information. I never said anyone was a leading authority, that was a part of the quote, many people in the vaccination discussions know of dr Shultz and Dodds as they are very significant figures in the vet vaccine debate. And at the very least people can search. You can make the point that some people may not search and use a forum as their only source, which is ridiculous in itself, if people are using a forum as their only source and not looking up to confirm the info, they have other problems.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Regardless of your technical challenges and what you believe to be readers' duties, you have an obligation to post responsibly. Please see a related announcement: Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums - Announcements in Forum : Golden Retriever Health, Anatomy, Physiology & Breed Standard.

Thank you.


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

GoldensGirl said:


> Regardless of your technical challenges and what you believe to be readers' duties, you have an obligation to post responsibly. Please see a related announcement: Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums - Announcements in Forum : Golden Retriever Health, Anatomy, Physiology & Breed Standard.
> 
> Thank you.


I don't know what to do because quoting the source is as good as I can do on my phone


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> I generally agree with you, especially about the idea of not becoming alarmist over things, but I think your area can a have a huge effect on your perception of Lyme. Here in southern CT, Lyme ground zero, we all know family members, friends, and colleagues who've had a positive Lyme test after experiencing a significant health crisis. It can be very hard to tell if somebody's symptoms are actually caused by the Lyme or if many of us simply carry around low-grade infections that are found as we search for answers but aren't actually the cause of the health problems.
> 
> And many of us also know a family who lost a beloved dog to Lyme nephritis. I'm up to three on that awful score. And I know literally dozens, including two of my own, who've tested positive for one of the TBDs.
> 
> So while I don't know the specific rates in VA, I read Rainheart's post with great sympathy and recognition. I can hardly imagine not vaccinating my dogs for Lyme, knowing how many people and dogs catch it around here and how many suffer pretty severe symptoms.


This is absolutely another thing that needs to be taken into consideration when deciding about vaccinations. There are areas of the country where certain issues(lepto/tick diseases) are more of an issue than in other areas of the country. If I was in New England, I would be using the Lyme vaccine as well. The point is, you have to weigh the benefit vs. the risk. The risk for Lyme disease is super high in that part of the country and any protection that can be given can outweigh the risks that come with the vaccination. Again, another reason why these decisions and discussions need to be happening with your veterinarian who will be aware of the potential for certain diseases in the area. We have to be advocates for our pet's health just as much as we have to be for our own.

We are not in a high risk area for Lyme disease, so I chose not to vaccinate.

As to the Frontline/Advantix debate, I have been told that Frontline has/is changing its formula so while it may not have worked for some in the past, it may work now. We have used Frontline Plus with no issues of finding ticks on the dogs. And yes, I do believe that some areas do seem to have super ticks!!!!!!! lol


----------



## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Tuco said:


> I don't know what to do because quoting the source is as good as I can do on my phone
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I will send you a PM about this. There are some simple things you can do.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Rainheart said:


> I am not finding any ticks on my dogs at the moment, so frontline seems to be doing it's job. I have only ever found one tick on Beamer and it was on the side of his face! But, I do agree we have seen some people who say frontline just isn't doing the job anymore. We are suggesting Vectra 3D at my vet. I have yet to use it on my dogs, personally.


There is a new flea and tick topical being offered in my area called Parastar Plus. It contains the same active ingredient as Frontline Plus, but apparently has a faster speed of kill. Parastar


----------



## Ohiomom9977 (Jul 27, 2012)

Rainheart said:


> I am not finding any ticks on my dogs at the moment, so frontline seems to be doing it's job. I have only ever found one tick on Beamer and it was on the side of his face! But, I do agree we have seen some people who say frontline just isn't doing the job anymore. We are suggesting Vectra 3D at my vet. I have yet to use it on my dogs, personally.


We used vectra for 2 months in Charlie, & while I didn't find ticks on him, it was not very effective in controlling fleas. I'm a big K9 Advantix fan, we switched to it from frontline several years ago with my last golden. We camp regularly so tick protection is essential for us!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Tuco said:


> If I had linking as an option I would, my phone has a copy and pasting issue and most of these links have a 40 letter line of letters im not going to spend 40 mins copying it. so the best I can do Is quote and people have the option to google the quote and in at least the situations above you can see the context and source of the information. I never said anyone was a leading authority, that was a part of the quote, many people in the vaccination discussions know of dr Shultz and Dodds as they are very significant figures in the vet vaccine debate. And at the very least people can search. You can make the point that some people may not search and use a forum as their only source, which is ridiculous in itself, if people are using a forum as their only source and not looking up to confirm the info, they have other problems.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You can always copy the link on top of the page and then paste it here. I do it on my iphone and it works. Just copy the http....the same as you would the paragraph


----------



## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

Thanks for the reply, I definitely don't take it as starting an argument. I'd say we at least have one dog test positive on our 4DX snap test once a day. Now, they don't necessarily show symptoms at that point, it might just be an annual check. I'd say maybe 3-4 dogs a week might go home on Doxycycline for coming up lyme positive for the first time (or any other tick disease for that matter). Granted, it is not really the right season for ticks at the moment, but we still do see them even in the winter. I'd say we see maybe 2 dogs a week at this point that may be showing clinical signs. 

I know 10 years ago in my area, Lyme was unheard of but times have changed drastically, and it continues to move south. Seeing as you are from Texas, I doubt you have dealt much with lyme, I'm not sure about any other tick dieases that may be in your area or any other diseases (like Lepto since Dallas Gold's dog had gotten sick once with it).

I did do a study on lyme disease a few summers ago, I'll have to pull up my numbers here. I looked through all the dogs in my clinic that had a Snap test in the past year. 
218 dogs had tested positive at least once on the snap test (but again, just testing positive, not necessarily showing clinical signs). That is out of a total number of 1,031 dogs. Almost 75% of dogs have been vaccinated at least once as well, but not necessarily their entire life or that they had even ever finished out the vaccine series and continued to do it yearly. Only about 15% of dogs in our clinic have been vaccinated continuously for lyme yearly since they were a puppy and I only saw 6 of 161 of those dogs that the vaccine failed for them. 

I also know what a you are saying, I can worry a lot about my boy- most recently this lump he had which thankfully came back benign. But, lyme is just something I won't risk living where I am, and we aren't really even near the New England area.



drofen said:


> First I want t say I mean this respectfully as possible, I simply don't have any interest in starting an ugly argument. However I feel what I have to say adds to the topic at hand
> 
> Secondly, regarding the CHF you may be seeing in animals with Lyme could easily be connected to the Lyme nephritis. Renal failure and CHF often go hand in hand in a classic "chicken or the egg" pattern.
> 
> ...


----------



## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

Very cool. Thanks for the numbers. How many dogs does your clinic see a week? Also, and I'm asking because I really don't know, what's the reliability of those tests? False positives, false negatives?

You're right, we see very little Lyme down here, but there's certainly no shortage of ticks. 

I've looked into Lyme a bit because one of my friends died of ALS and one of the hopeful avenues he was exploring before his death was the possibility that he might actually have Lyme. He had several inconclusive tests, and submitted himself to extremely high dose ceftriaxone as an experimental treatment. He actually had a pretty severe Herxheimer reaction at one point, and his ALS symptoms improved momentarily. But in the end it was most likely ALS that got him. That was a big indoctrination for me--medicine rarely follows those tidy textbook rules. 



Rainheart said:


> Thanks for the reply, I definitely don't take it as starting an argument. I'd say we at least have one dog test positive on our 4DX snap test once a day. Now, they don't necessarily show symptoms at that point, it might just be an annual check. I'd say maybe 3-4 dogs a week might go home on Doxycycline for coming up lyme positive for the first time (or any other tick disease for that matter). Granted, it is not really the right season for ticks at the moment, but we still do see them even in the winter. I'd say we see maybe 2 dogs a week at this point that may be showing clinical signs.
> 
> I know 10 years ago in my area, Lyme was unheard of but times have changed drastically, and it continues to move south. Seeing as you are from Texas, I doubt you have dealt much with lyme, I'm not sure about any other tick dieases that may be in your area or any other diseases (like Lepto since Dallas Gold's dog had gotten sick once with it).
> 
> ...


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Rainheart said:


> 218 dogs had tested positive at least once on the snap test (but again, just testing positive, not necessarily showing clinical signs). That is out of a total number of 1,031 dogs.





Rainheart said:


> Only about 15% of dogs in our clinic have been vaccinated continuously for lyme yearly since they were a puppy and I only saw 6 of 161 of those dogs that the vaccine failed for them.


Wow, those are compelling numbers. They might constitute publishable survey research (depending on how you controlled and collected).

218/1031 is a 21.1% infection rate. 6/161 is 3.7% infection rate. That speaks volumes to me. Dogs who are up-to-date on their Lyme vaccine are at like 1/5th the risk in your no-so-small sample group.

Making a small assumption here. If 1031 is the total number of dogs, that seems to include the 161 who were up-to-date. So we're actually looking at a 24.4% (212/870) infection rate on dogs with incomplete or no vaccination and 3.7% on the properly vaccinated group. That brings the vaccine success rate up to 84.8% in your sample.

My statistical analysis is a little soft there, but I think it really demonstrates the value of the vaccine in Lyme endemic areas. If almost 1/4 unvaccinated dogs are getting it in your area, the risks of the vaccine seem completely worth it to me. I wonder if our rate is even higher around here. Maybe higher because we're closer to ground zero. Maybe lower because people have been dealing with it for a long time and use topicals.


----------



## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

What I did with my project was I looked through charts of all the dogs that had been to my clinic in the past year and had a heartworm/lyme test (otherwise, there was no way I could evaluate them). It was very tedious, but I was looking to see how many dogs had ever tested positive vs. never testing positive, how many had been vaccinated at least once vs not vaccinated and then how many, if vaccinated, had had the vaccine since they were a puppy at my clinic. 
I also have a few other numbers I didn't mention before:
599 dogs had been vaccinated at least once (and again, this is even if they had been vaccinated once. They may or may not have finished the original vaccine series or they could have and have continued to be vaccinated every year).
271 dogs out of that original number had never had the vaccine at all.

I also did a survey to clients- I only managed to get about 100 surveys during the summer. Almost 60% of clients say they see ticks on their pets and 70% say they use preventative- which is mostly frontline in my area still. Only 56% of clients say that they use the prevention on a monthly basis, though. For the clients that don't use prevention, they say they don't use it because they don't see ticks.

I did this project as my Capstone experience for my major. Something to pull everything together and it has really helped my clinic get a better understanding of the tick problem and lyme disease in my area.

Tippy- your statistical skills are definitely superior to mine, and I really appreciate the help in the interpretation of all this data. Even after a few years of doing this, I can still learn something new!

And to drofen- we do see a fair number of pets everyday. If I had to guess, I'd say we see maybe 20-30 appointments a day and that doesn't include surgeries or just technician appointments for vaccines that don't need a doctor visit or a nail trim, or something simple.


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

I'm not sure about this, but I thought that many dogs will test positive but never get sick, it's also noteworthy on wether those 6 vaccinated dogs got sick or just tested positive and same with the unvaccinated dogs


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

Tuco said:


> I'm not sure about this, but I thought that many dogs will test positive but never get sick, it's also noteworthy on wether those 6 vaccinated dogs got sick or just tested positive and same with the unvaccinated dogs
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That I cannot say since it was out of the scope of my project. It isn't something I have time to revisit since I'd probably just have to start from scratch again since the data is a few years old.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> I'm not sure about this, but I thought that many dogs will test positive but never get sick, it's also noteworthy on wether those 6 vaccinated dogs got sick or just tested positive and same with the unvaccinated dogs


With any pathogenic disease, you can have an individual carry the pathogen, sometimes enough to test positive with it, without ever showing symptoms. That's true, and certainly possible with Lyme.

There's a big issue with dogs, though. Sometimes they can have symptoms we can't discern. Maybe your dog is experiencing minor arthritic discomfort from low-grade chronic Lyme. Maybe he's experiencing very, very slow organ damage over the course of that infection. But maybe the arthritis isn't enough to change his gait or cause him to stop doing what he loves to do. So he slows down imperceptibly, but you can't tell and don't take him to the vet because you have no idea. That's a dog that shows no clinical signs of Lyme, but he's certainly having symptoms that he could tell you about if you could ask.

If he were a person, he might ask his doc about the minor arthritis at his next regular appointment. But since he's a dog, the only way you know about it is through a pre-emptive blood test.

Now I have no way of knowing what proportion of dogs who test positive for Lyme on a SNAP test would never have any real symptoms, how many have symptoms bad enough that owners notice, and how many have symptoms in between. But it's a much more complicated issue than "getting sick," especially with the way Lyme damages dogs' kidneys so often.


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Rainheart said:


> That I cannot say since it was out of the scope of my project. It isn't something I have time to revisit since I'd probably just have to start from scratch again since the data is a few years old.


According to DNM 95% of dogs positive for Lyme won't get sick, if that's the case than that makes a statistic much harder to properly interpret.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> With any pathogenic disease, you can have an individual carry the pathogen, sometimes enough to test positive with it, without ever showing symptoms. That's true, and certainly possible with Lyme.
> 
> There's a big issue with dogs, though. Sometimes they can have symptoms we can't discern. Maybe your dog is experiencing minor arthritic discomfort from low-grade chronic Lyme. Maybe he's experiencing very, very slow organ damage over the course of that infection. But maybe the arthritis isn't enough to change his gait or cause him to stop doing what he loves to do. So he slows down imperceptibly, but you can't tell and don't take him to the vet because you have no idea. That's a dog that shows no clinical signs of Lyme, but he's certainly having symptoms that he could tell you about if you could ask.
> 
> ...


Yea it's tricky, also considering how hard the treatment is on the dog


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> According to DNM 95% of dogs positive for Lyme won't get sick, if that's the case than that makes a statistic much harder to properly interpret.


It would be hard to find a source more biased against vaccines than _Dogs Naturally Magazine_, assuming that when you say "DNM," you are referring to this article. And, interestingly, that particular 95% statistic is one they simply attribute to a Dr. Littman with no actual reference to a study of any kind.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> Yea it's tricky, also considering how hard the treatment is on the dog


What do you mean? My understanding is that doxycycline is well tolerated by the vast majority of dogs.


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> What do you mean? My understanding is that doxycycline is well tolerated by the vast majority of dogs.


Apologies, was mixing up treatment of Lyme and treatment of leptospirosis 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

According to the CDC 95% of dogs exposed to lyme do not have symptoms.
Now, I personally would interpret "exposed to" as being bitten by a lyme's positive tick , not sure of their definition.
CDC - Veterinarians - Lyme Disease
I would also strongly agree with Tippy's explanation of dogs having symptoms vs displaying symptoms. I think most of us have personally experienced dogs that have been in far more pain or sick than they showed us.


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

I think it means Lyme has been transmitted fully from the tick in question 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

Heaven help me. I just clicked through to the CDC website, and it was written so definitively with so few sources that I started reading through those sources, which led to other studies, and then more studies, followed by still more studies which I just spent the last 1:45 reading (on my phone no less--a feat in and of itself) and I have more questions than answers. 

Be back later. 

I have more reading to do.


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

drofen said:


> Heaven help me. I just clicked through to the CDC website, and it was written so definitively with so few sources that I started reading through those sources, which led to other studies, and then more studies, followed by still more studies which I just spent the last 1:45 reading (on my phone no less--a feat in and of itself) and I have more questions than answers.
> 
> Be back later.
> 
> I have more reading to do.


Indeed I encountered a similar situation but I gave up after about half an hour.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Benita (Oct 12, 2011)

I finally finished reading the whole thread. I'm thankful for all the information but now I'm more confused than ever. 

What I got is:

I should switch from the 1 year rabies to the 3 year which I did today. Next Vaccine is 2016 for Matt. The puppy gets a rabbies vaccine at 14-20 weeks (have to ask what the law is), a booster at 1 year and every 3 years after that. Rabies vaccine 3-4 weeks apart from distemper/parvovirus booster

Bordatella shouldn't be given since it will only protect from 2 of 8 causes of kennel cough but since we go to dog parks and the agility facility I should do it every 6 months

Sophie got Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV at 8 weeks, will get the next one at 12 weeks, next one with 16 and a booster at 1 year. *But how often do I have to give it to her after she gets the booster at the age of one? Every 3 years? * 

Matt got a Lyme vaccine in April 2012. We live in a Lyme affected area but since we put Frontline on him I've never found an attached tick on him, EVER! *Should we still give him the Lyme vaccine sind the risk is higher where we live or is just Frontline ok?* Our breeder even said that the disease is less concerning than the damage the vaccine can cause. 

I'm still confused about the Distemper thing and can't find anything about that. Matt gets the Distemper Combo/4wayLepto Booster every year. One user told me to give him Lepto by itself. What about Distemper? Should we give it by itself a few weeks later or not at all? What are the risks? And why does our Puppy get Dostemper/Parvo and our big dog Distemper/Lepto? 

Please help


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Bordatella isn't worth giving unless you go to a kennelling facility that requires it, after the 1 year booster for the4 way parvovirus distemper the usual approach is every 3 years however its believed that these actually give 7 year to lifelong immunity so to avoid over vaccination I would do the one year booster, then do titre immunity testing every 3 years. If you have never found a tick on your dog than not only is the Lyme vaccine worth giving but frontline isn't either due to the chemicals, what you may want to do is just give a natural preventative that's affordable and all natural so if your dog does ever encounter fleas ticks or mosquitoes you don't have to worry, you can either purchase an all natural product, or just apply this powder monthly which will kill ticks before they can transmit the disease and repel bugs in general. It's 1 part food grade diatomaceous earth, 1 part neem and 1 part yarrow.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Oh and ask for the DHPP vaccine, it covers all the core vaccines including parainfluenza, distemper, parvovirus and hepatitis. Leptospirosis simply isn't worth getting because it covers very few of the many strains and has a higher adverse reaction rate


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

I think its really important to weigh the pros and cons of certain vaccinations based on your location and exposure risk. I think talking to your vet/breeder about what the best course of action is is best. As you can see there is a lot of confusion surrounding vaccines, especially with the recent scientific discoveries about vaccinosis, etc. They are finding that vaccines can cause acute and chronic diseases including autoimmune disorders and cancers. However, there's not enough research at the moment to really say how many dogs are affected by vaccinosis and all the different variables that contribute to it. I think this definitely shows that we should question traditional protocol and question our vets (literally - like at the vet ask them about it). Ask your vet about the option to titer and test for immunity so you can booster less often than every year/3 years. Ask your vet about the number of cases of lepto and lyme in your area. Ask how the vaccines work and how well they protect your dog. Ask about what will happen to your dog if they do get the illness. The more informed you are the better decision you can make. 



> A team at Purdue University School of Veterinary Medicine conducted several studies (1,2) to determine if vaccines can cause changes in the immune system of dogs that might lead to life-threatening immune-mediated diseases. They obviously conducted this research because concern already existed. It was sponsored by the Haywood Foundation which itself was looking for evidence that such changes in the human immune system might also be vaccine induced. It found the evidence.


Science of Vaccine Damage


I personally am confused about the Lyme vaccine because I was under the impression that it only protected against a few strands of the lyme bacteria, and that those strands were actually the easiest to cure of the strands. I did a little research (nothing substantial found yet) but I have found that there are in fact different strands and the vaccine doesn't protect against all of them. Like you I'm not sure what my course of action will be, I need to talk to my vet so I can understand the vaccine better and how it works. If it does not fully protect my dog then to me the risks associated with revaccinating every year are much higher. My biggest issue is finding a vet that will actually sit down with me and present the facts. A lot of people I have come across use the scare tactic to try and get me to vaccinate my dogs. While I do have the utmost sorrow for those who have had to experience these horrible diseases and wish it upon no one I can't rely on that. I need a full understanding of how everything works and the dangers of both sides before I can make an informed decision. 

Then theres the whole other issue of how dangerous flea/tick preventative is. ahh :no:


----------



## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Benita said:


> I'm still confused about the Distemper thing and can't find anything about that. Matt gets the Distemper Combo/4wayLepto Booster every year. One user told me to give him Lepto by itself. What about Distemper? Should we give it by itself a few weeks later or not at all? What are the risks? And why does our Puppy get Dostemper/Parvo and our big dog Distemper/Lepto?



I have heard it is safest and easiest on your dogs immune system to give single vaccinations. I think some members do a day or a few days apart for distemper, parvo, etc. I believe that the single vaccines have less preservatives in them as well so that makes them safer for your gods too. I would ask your vet about this as well. This is just what I have heard from searches on here and internet research, but I think it'd be worth asking your vet about. I think its more expensive this way and requires more trips to the vet, but for me the extra money/visits would be worth it  (obviously only if the information I have come across is true - I'd talk to your vet about it!).


----------



## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

I think the primary thing to take away from this thread is to consult with multiple vets in your area that you have faith in. We all live in different locations with different necessities and lifestyles. I feel fairly confident answering one of your questions though -- after the one year booster, it is fairly standard and safe practice to give DHPP every three years, and getting lepto as a separate vaccine if that is what makes you most comfortable is possible, but no one here can tell you if lepto is or is not a necessary vaccine for your area. In addition, most vaccines can be given alone and spread out if there is reason to believe your dog may have a poor reaction. Cross referencing with multiple vets will also be your best source of accurate information in regards to vaccinating for lyme... obviously if you are not seeing poor reactions to frontline, keep up that line of defense as well! There are some dogs that do react poorly to topical flea and tick medicine but there is not evidence to suggest that is standard by any means or as a direct result from the ingredients themselves. If your dogs are healthy and happy, you are just fine to trust that and your vet 


As an additional side note, if you ARE seeing neurological reactions to topical flea and tick medicine and you ARE interested in finding another alternative for whatever reason, the community of people with epileptic dogs has reported similar side effects with neem oil anecdoteally (keep in mind, these are dogs that already have a lower neurological thresh-hold than most animals). These are certainly not researched, controlled studies, but it is something to note for the purpose of remembering that even natural treatments should be run by your vet first.


----------



## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Tuco said:


> Bordatella isn't worth giving unless you go to a kennelling facility that requires it, after the 1 year booster for the4 way parvovirus distemper the usual approach is every 3 years however its believed that these actually give 7 year to lifelong immunity so to avoid over vaccination I would do the one year booster, then do titre immunity testing every 3 years. If you have never found a tick on your dog than not only is the Lyme vaccine worth giving but frontline isn't either due to the chemicals, what you may want to do is just give a natural preventative that's affordable and all natural so if your dog does ever encounter fleas ticks or mosquitoes you don't have to worry, you can either purchase an all natural product, or just apply this powder monthly which will kill ticks before they can transmit the disease and repel bugs in general. It's 1 part food grade diatomaceous earth, 1 part neem and 1 part yarrow.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Are you a veterinarian? If not, what credentials qualify you to give this advice? Please provide pointers to any scientific studies that back up your assertions.

I encourage every reader of this thread to read this announcement from the GRF Admin: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...-physiology-breed-standard/announcements.html.

Thank you.


----------



## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Tuco said:


> Oh and ask for the DHPP vaccine, it covers all the core vaccines including parainfluenza, distemper, parvovirus and hepatitis. Leptospirosis simply isn't worth getting because it covers very few of the many strains and has a higher adverse reaction rate
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Once again, if you are a veterinarian, please tell us in what state are you licensed to practice. If you are not a veterinarian, what qualifies you to give this advice? Please provide pointers to scientific references so that others can assess the quality of the research that backs up your assertions. If you are simply stating your opinion, please say so and tell us what experience informs your thinking.

Thank you.


----------



## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Mirinde said:


> As an additional side note, if you ARE seeing neurological reactions to topical flea and tick medicine and you ARE interested in finding another alternative for whatever reason, the community of people with epileptic dogs has reported similar side effects with neem oil anecdoteally (keep in mind, these are dogs that already have a lower neurological thresh-hold than most animals). These are certainly not researched, controlled studies, but it is something to note for the purpose of remembering that even natural treatments should be run by your vet first.


I just want to reiterate this point. run it by your vet first. *natural does not equal safe*. there are many great natural alternatives to prescription antibiotics, but talk to your vet or a homeopathic vet about what ones are safe for your dog.


----------



## Benita (Oct 12, 2011)

Tuco said:


> Bordatella isn't worth giving unless you go to a kennelling facility that requires it, after the 1 year booster for the4 way parvovirus distemper the usual approach is every 3 years however its believed that these actually give 7 year to lifelong immunity so to avoid over vaccination I would do the one year booster, then do titre immunity testing every 3 years. *If you have never found a tick on your dog than not only is the Lyme vaccine worth giving but frontline isn't either due to the chemicals,* what you may want to do is just give a natural preventative that's affordable and all natural so if your dog does ever encounter fleas ticks or mosquitoes you don't have to worry, you can either purchase an all natural product, or just apply this powder monthly which will kill ticks before they can transmit the disease and repel bugs in general. It's 1 part food grade diatomaceous earth, 1 part neem and 1 part yarrow.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Maybe I should have said I haven't found an attached tick. I've seen them crawling on his fur. Usually they fall off and I find them around the house dead or crawling somewhere. 

So the DHPP vaccine instead of all the others? And then every 3 years or every year? What do you guys think about all the other stuff I postet in my last comment? Did i get that right?


----------



## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

For Rabies, you have to follow whatever laws are in effect in your state (which it sounds like you are doing). For the other core vaccines I think its pretty typical to do every 3 years after the annual booster, however, you can do titers instead to test immunity and see if the vaccine is needed again. Again - ask your vet about this. As for all of the optional vaccines no one here can really say what you should or shouldn't do because your situation is completely unique to your dog/location/lifestyle.



Found this on another site so I thought I'd share:


> 2011 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines https://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/CanineVaccineGuidelines.pdf
> 
> p. 3 "When compared with infectious (attenuated, avirulent, modified live, recombinant viral vectored) vaccines, noninfectious vaccines are more likely to produce local and systemic adverse reactions in some dogs."
> 
> ...


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

GoldensGirl said:


> Once again, if you are a veterinarian, please tell us in what state are you licensed to practice. If you are not a veterinarian, what qualifies you to give this advice? Please provide pointers to scientific references so that others can assess the quality of the research that backs up your assertions. If you are simply stating your opinion, please say so and tell us what experience informs your thinking.
> 
> Thank you.


Omg Im literally just summarizing all the info I had said previously on the post and since the op said he has just read over all the posts he would have seen me cite sources and knows its my opinion. I think even someone as naive as a 5 year old would know that a person on a forum not clearly liscenced as a vet isn't a liscenced vet, nevertheless many people on this forum have lots of prior knowledge on the subject and hAving to repeatedly cite the same source multiple times each time you repeat a similar post in the same thread is absolutely ridiculous especially considering how much of a pain it is in my situation where I do not have the luxury of copy/paste and have to deal with touch typing down each little letter in a very length quote or source.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm going to remind everybody again that health discussions are a very important part of this forum BUT is only meant to be used for informational purposes only. It is very important to discuss all health issues with your veterinarian. As with anything related to science, or stated as a fact from any member on this forum , you may be asked for references or studies done so members can all see how you obtain this information. 

Once again, no matter what you take away from this forum please never leave out discussing with, or visiting your veterinarian.


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

I understand that if someone asks you, you give them your source but having to add it into each and every post is ridiculous, I could easily find dozens of posts that cross this rule


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

Tuco said:


> I understand that if someone asks you, you give them your source but having to add it into each and every post is ridiculous, I could easily find dozens of posts that cross this rule
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It is not a rule here on the board but is the nature of the beast on how things maybe asked upon a member who is presenting any information that is looking like a fact. Many times members don't ask other members where they got the information we are just telling you that if someone asks you for where are you obtain your information you should to be able to present such related information or studies . Also if you presented any references or studies in a previous post in the same thread, up in the very right hand top corner you'll see a post number that you can tell people to go back and read for example this is post number 91 in this thread.


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

K, I've just gotten multiple warnings from a mod, and it's been extremely irritating and vague. Thank you for clarifying


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

GoldensGirl said:


> Are you a veterinarian? If not, what credentials qualify you to give this advice? Please provide pointers to any scientific studies that back up your assertions.
> 
> I encourage every reader of this thread to read this announcement from the GRF Admin: Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums - Announcements in Forum : Golden Retriever Health, Anatomy, Physiology & Breed Standard.
> 
> Thank you.


Im not trying to be rude here. But there have been tons of other members who are not veterinarians giving their advice/opinion on what vaccines to give etc. If no one but licensed vets could give their *opinion* what good would a health forum be? I always run the advice I may receive through a vet but sometimes I need to make a decision myself. For example, the previous two vets refused to run a thyroid test on him because he wasnt showing the common symptoms of low thyroid. These two vets also wanted to revaccinate knowing his throat would swell and he would lose half the fur on his body. They figure I would pay the $100 for the vaccine then $300 additionally to reverses his reaction then any money there after for his skin issues the vaccine caused. 

My current vet I pushed to have a thyroid done and low and behold he was low and I refuse to give him vaccines and explained why and now I have an exemption. Had I of vaccinated him 2 years ago when he was due it could of killed him


----------



## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

A1Malinois said:


> Im not trying to be rude here. But there have been tons of other members who are not veterinarians giving their advice/opinion on what vaccines to give etc. If no one but licensed vets could give their *opinion* what good would a health forum be? I always run the advice I may receive through a vet but sometimes I need to make a decision myself. For example, the previous two vets refused to run a thyroid test on him because he wasnt showing the common symptoms of low thyroid. These two vets also wanted to revaccinate knowing his throat would swell and he would lose half the fur on his body. They figure I would pay the $100 for the vaccine then $300 additionally to reverses his reaction then any money there after for his skin issues the vaccine caused.
> 
> My current vet I pushed to have a thyroid done and low and behold he was low and I refuse to give him vaccines and explained why and now I have an exemption. Had I of vaccinated him 2 years ago when he was due it could of killed him


and if any of those above members giving their advice were asked where they obtain the information they too should be able to present that. This will apply to you as well, if you present any information someone may ask you where you obtained such information. As for you not listening to your veterinarian that is your decision but don't ask that to be pressed upon other members here.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Rob's GRs said:


> and if any of those above members giving their advice were asked where they obtain the information they too should be able to present that. This will apply to you as well, if you present any information someone may ask you where you obtained such information. As for you not listening to your veterinarian that is your decision but don't ask that to be pressed upon other members here.


If I am asked I can present that information. When you look hard enough, you can find information for or against any given thing. I can find a dozen articles that are against neutering and others can find a dozen that are for neutering. In the end you have to make a decision for yourself. As for not listening to my veterinarian, my dog could be DEAD right now had I of listened to my previous vets especially because each vaccine he got the reaction got worse and worse. 

All I can say is if you were allergic to peanut butter you wouldnt go eating it so why would I vaccinate my dog if hes allergic to the preservatives/chemicals used in them and has several other pre existing health conditions.


----------



## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

Benita said:


> I finally finished reading the whole thread. I'm thankful for all the information but now I'm more confused than ever.
> 
> What I got is:
> 
> ...



I am re posting this last message from the OP to get this thread back on track and can assist her.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Benita, in regards to the highlighted portions of your post in Rob's post above, this is what we will be doing with Yogi, who is 21 weeks this week. We came up with this plan after consultations with his veterinarian. He's had all of his core vaccines as of 5 weeks ago. We will be doing the distemper, parvo vaccince in 3 years from his last vaccine. Our state requires another rabies vaccine one year from the first vaccine, then we go to a 3 year protocol. This is required by our state and you'll need to check for your state's requirements. As far as bordatella, we are around dogs, in classes, and we may (or may not) board him so we will do the bordatella vaccine as recommended by our veterinarian. We are in a heavy lepto area so we will do the lepto vaccine as recommended by our veterinarian, which is currently annually, but I understand other areas may not recommend this because lepto is not an issue- we did have a dog contract it before Dallas area vets recommended the vaccine and it cost us about $3000 to get him through to recovery. Lyme is currently not a huge problem here so we will not be doing the lyme vaccine unless something chances in the future. I personally prefer topical flea and tick medications (not ingested as one of my dogs reacted horribly to Comfortis) so we will continue to do a new flea and tick topical called Parastar Plus every month. We do have fleas and ticks in my area, and the fleas don't die in the winter due to our milder temperatures. Frontline Plus stopped working for my older boy late last year. Parastar has the same active ingredient as Frontline, but according to their website, it has a faster kill rate. We've only used it for 2 months so we need a little more time during warmer months to see how effective it is for our dogs. Here is the website link:Parastar One of our goldens tested positive for RMSF (with clinical symptoms) in the early 00's so we will always do a flea/tick preventive. 

This is what we plan to do and I am very comfortable with this plan.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Benita said:


> Maybe I should have said I haven't found an attached tick. I've seen them crawling on his fur. Usually they fall off and I find them around the house dead or crawling somewhere.
> 
> So the DHPP vaccine instead of all the others? And then every 3 years or every year? What do you guys think about all the other stuff I postet in my last comment? Did i get that right?


FYI - many Lyme and other TBDs occur in people and dogs who never had a visible tick attachment. Some life stages of the deer tick in particular are so tiny they're difficult to identify with the naked eye. 

And personally, I would not follow any follow the advice of any poster who did not provide backup for claims about the danger or the effectiveness of a vaccine. There's a reason vets go to vet school and a reason the AVMA supports particular vaccination protocols.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I don't think anybody is saying that any members aren't allowed to share their opinions on health issues. I think what I and others are reacting to is the statement of things as if they are fact when they are not.

When somebody says "that vaccine doesn't work" or "that vaccine is dangerous," those are statements that could endanger somebody's dog. Legally, you're allowed to endanger your own dog if you like, but it's irresponsible to make such broad public statements without basis in fact. 

If you say something like, "Dr. Dodd advises that California clients skip the lepto vaccine because it's not a significant risk in that area and doesn't cover the right strains anyway," that's great, and please link if you can so we can read the original source material too.

If you say something like "we skipped that vaccination for my dog because he sprained his paw the next day and we felt the two were related," that's also fine in my book. Personally, I might disagree with your judgment about the cause and effect, and I will probably post back about that, but it's a statement of your experience, and it's not phrased as a general fact that applies to all dogs.

And I didn't see anywhere that somebody was told they weren't _allowed_ to post broad, sweeping, irresponsible statements, just several times where folks were asked very strongly to provide sources if they were going to make broad medical statements. That's just asking you to be responsible, and I don't think there's a legitimate argument against that request.

I'll say something I've said two or there times here: you can endanger somebody's dog if you're not careful. Not all readers of these threads have a lot of experience in evaluating source credibility, so they might take something you meant as opinion as fact if you state it like it's a fact. So just be careful, please! 

*To the OP*: looking back over your posts in this thread, I think you are relying on non-credible sources for too much of your input. There are sensible steps you can take to limit the risk of vaccine reactions (which is already fairly low, let's not forget), like spacing out vaccinations so the pup isn't getting them all at once, and talking to your vet about what's not very necessary in your area. But please don't get creative about skipping vaccinations or boosters, especially based on some of these forum posts that have no substantive source material behind them.


----------



## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> There are sensible steps you can take to limit the risk of vaccine reactions (which is already fairly low, let's not forget)


Can you provide a link that backs this statement up? (I'm not trying to be rude I just literally would like more information on this subject because from the studies I have read the risk is NOT fairly low).


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

coaraujo said:


> Can you provide a link that backs this statement up? (I'm not trying to be rude I just literally would like more information on this subject because from the studies I have read the risk is NOT fairly low).


This link: AAHA Healthy Pet | Vaccinating Your Dog states on the page:



> Vaccine reactions, of all types, are infrequent. In general, most vaccine reactions and side effects (such as local pain and swelling) are self-limiting. Allergic reactions are not common, but if left untreated can be fatal. These can occur minutes or hours after vaccination. *If you see such a reaction, contact your veterinarian as soon as possible. It is also a good idea to document the reaction, severity and what vaccines were given; this information should always be in a pets medical record so that in the future vaccines may be preceded with a medication to decrease the severity of the reaction*.


In our case, to minimize adverse reactions in our adult dogs (not our puppy's core vaccines), I discussed it in advance with their veterinarian and she was the person who suggested we space them out at least three weeks apart. She also advised me if I saw a reaction in any of them I should contact the clinic immediately for evaluation and treatment. We never had an issue.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

coaraujo said:


> Can you provide a link that backs this statement up? (I'm not trying to be rude I just literally would like more information on this subject because from the studies I have read the risk is NOT fairly low).


It's never rude to ask for sources! Here's a great primer on people vaccines from the CDC. You can see that most of the reactions are minor and/or infrequent.

I don't know of any such resource for dogs. Most of what you'll find when you look at dog vaccination side effects are collections of scary anecdotes with very little hard evidence behind them. You can look at individual rates of reaction for particular vaccines in individual pieces of research, but that's quite time consuming. For the core vaccines, the rates of serious vaccination reactions are typically very low (i.e., less than 1 percent), and quite similar in rate and severity to reactions in humans.

ETA: Thanks to DG for adding that link to the AAHA's site. I hadn't seen that and it answers coaraujo's questions pretty well.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I found this:

How Common Are Vaccine Reactions? « Tales from the Pet Clinic

"*How often do vaccine reactions occur?*Vaccine reactions are usually mild and fortunately are quite uncommon, occurring in 40-50 of every 10,000 dogs or cats vaccinated. Life-threatening reactions are extremely rare following vaccination."

and this

Adverse Reactions to Vaccinations in Dogs

"Some of the more common (but still rare) risks are discussed below. In dogs, young adult small breed dogs receiving multiple vaccinations at the same time had the highest risk of a reaction to the vaccine. 

*Anaphylaxis *

Anaphylaxis is a rare, life-threatening, immediate allergic reaction to something ingested or injected. If untreated, it results in shock, respiratory and cardiac failure, and death. An anaphylactic reaction can occur as a result of vaccination. The reaction usually occurs within minutes to hours (less than 24) of the vaccination. Dr. Ronald Schultz of the University of Wisconsin College of Veterinary Medicine estimates that about one case of anaphylaxis occurs for every 15,000 doses of vaccine administered. "

Anecdotally, in over 35 years of owning and breeding Goldens, I have never personally experienced anything more serious than a small lump at an injection site. A puppy bred by friends of mine did have an adverse reaction to the old original Lyme vaccine many years ago-he went blind for several weeks. The company paid for his treatment and his eyesight did eventually come back.


----------



## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Thank you for the links!

I also found this link that I thought was a good read:

https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Pages/Vaccination-Principles.aspx

It doesn't talk about the numbers, but does talk about the importance of speaking with your vet about what vaccination protocol is best for your dog based on your circumstances.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Please also remember that just because the dog experiences a health issue in a time period after a vaccination, that doesn't mean that the vaccine was the cause. It may have been a trigger of a condition that would have occurred anyway (auto-immune disorders come to mind), or it could be a complete coincidence. _Post hoc ergo propter hoc_. Correlation does not prove causality.


----------



## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> Please also remember that just because the dog experiences a health issue in a time period after a vaccination, that doesn't mean that the vaccine was the cause. It may have been a trigger of a condition that would have occurred anyway (auto-immune disorders come to mind), or it could be a complete coincidence. _Post hoc ergo propter hoc_. Correlation does not prove causality.


In school we watched a funny video on this topic. It featured a town that hired a scientist to help reduce the number of car wrecks. He did his study, and at every accident scene he noted that skid marks were present--100% correlation. Naturally he was forced to conclude that skid marks caused car wrecks. He recommended a two prong approach to eliminating skid marks and thus car wrecks--only tires with no tread would be allowed, and the city would resurface the roads to a mirror polish. He also extrapolated that this data was pertinent for people falling and hurting themselves...so lubricated shoes and special slippery stairs, carpets, and walkways were implemented.

I'll leave the ensuing hilarity to your imagination...


----------



## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> Please also remember that just because the dog experiences a health issue in a time period after a vaccination, that doesn't mean that the vaccine was the cause. It may have been a trigger of a condition that would have occurred anyway (auto-immune disorders come to mind), or it could be a complete coincidence. _Post hoc ergo propter hoc_. Correlation does not prove causality.


I completely agree with this, unfortunately my dogs have experienced adverse reactions to vaccines which is why for my personal case I'm a lot more hesitant when vaccinating and do a lot more research before making a decision. I know that auto-immune disorders and things like cancer are not necessarily caused by vaccines BUT studies are showing the possibility is there. Which, while I dont think that is a reason not to vaccinate and expose a dog to the risks of those diseases, I do think it shows we should question the number of vaccines we give and the fact that overvaccination is something that is happening and isn't necessary. More and more studies are being done and evidence is starting to pop-up which is why we're having so many heated discussions about vaccines. Unfortunately like you said there are sources out there (like Dogs Naturally Magazine) that use the scare tactics and don't back up with sources. But I always think its important to question. I went to several doctors, did a bunch of research, and got several second/third opinions when getting diagnosed with my current health conditions (yes unfortunately I have multiple :doh. If I were to just listen to the first doctor I went to I could possibly be dead right now because of the treatment they prescribed SO its always good to question and get second opinions. I'm not saying take advice from someone on an internet forum, but from those knowledgeable and in the field.

Vaccine-Associated Immune-Mediated Hemolytic Anemia in the Dog - Duval - 2008 - Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine - Wiley Online Library


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

drofen said:


> In school we watched a funny video on this topic. It featured a town that hired a scientist to help reduce the number of car wrecks. He did his study, and at every accident scene he noted that skid marks were present--100% correlation. Naturally he was forced to conclude that skid marks caused car wrecks. He recommended a two prong approach to eliminating skid marks and thus car wrecks--only tires with no tread would be allowed, and the city would resurface the roads to a mirror polish. He also extrapolated that this data was pertinent for people falling and hurting themselves...so lubricated shoes and special slippery stairs, carpets, and walkways were implemented.
> 
> I'll leave the ensuing hilarity to your imagination...


A common story among the anti-vaccine crowd is that syphilis rates increased after the smallpox vaccine was distributed. They make the claim that syphilis was somehow caused by the vaccine (the mechanism they use to explain it often varies). Can you imagine what would have happened if those people had been around back then and had kept a substantial portion of the population from receiving that vaccine?

The only places where polio is still surviving these days are places where people refuse the vaccine because of conspiracy theories. It's heartbreaking to know that little kids are getting polio because the adults are acting like fools. We're on the verge of wiping out a horrendous, debilitating disease forever! And conspiracy theories and post-hoc fallacies are keeping us from winning that war.

I don't mean to make light of real vaccine reactions. They do exist. But everything under the sun gets blamed on vaccines because almost every dog and almost every person gets them. So every health problem a kid or dog has can be blamed on a vaccine because of the _post hoc_ fallacy. He had a vaccine, and a week later he had a serious fever. Does that mean the vaccine caused the fever? Or that the vaccine weakened the immune system, which allowed him to catch the fever more easily? Or did he just catch a virus, as children and dogs do? There's no proof that the vaccine played any role.

There are, however, volumes, mountains of proof that vaccines prevent the diseases they're designed to prevent. That's how they get adopted by docs in the first place and why it's only a fringe that say they cause more problems than they solve.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

coaraujo said:


> I completely agree with this, unfortunately my dogs have experienced adverse reactions to vaccines which is why for my personal case I'm a lot more hesitant when vaccinating and do a lot more research before making a decision. I know that auto-immune disorders and things like cancer are not necessarily caused by vaccines BUT studies are showing the possibility is there. Which, while I dont think that is a reason not to vaccinate and expose a dog to the risks of those diseases, I do think it shows we should question the number of vaccines we give and the fact that overvaccination is something that is happening and isn't necessary. More and more studies are being done and evidence is starting to pop-up which is why we're having so many heated discussions about vaccines. Unfortunately like you said there are sources out there (like Dogs Naturally Magazine) that use the scare tactics and don't back up with sources. But I always think its important to question. I went to several doctors, did a bunch of research, and got several second/third opinions when getting diagnosed with my current health conditions (yes unfortunately I have multiple :doh. If I were to just listen to the first doctor I went to I could possibly be dead right now because of the treatment they prescribed SO its always good to question and get second opinions. I'm not saying take advice from someone on an internet forum, but from those knowledgeable and in the field.
> 
> Vaccine-Associated Immune-Mediated Hemolytic Anemia in the Dog - Duval - 2008 - Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine - Wiley Online Library


I'm very much with you on most of this. I think we only differ in our assessment of the risk overall, probably due to our different experiences. When I look at the rate at which dogs get parvo and the rate at which it kills them or leaves them with health problems for life, and I compare that to the observed rates of reaction to the parvo vaccine, I think it would be hard to "overvaccinate" for it. The risk of the vaccine is real, but it is just so low compared to the risk of the disease. Same for Lyme if Lyme is endemic in your area.

Cancer and auto-immune disease are not _caused_ by vaccines. I think it's possible that vaccination increases the _rates_ of them, but that the increase in risk is tiny, so small that it's hard to see for sure when researchers study it. So I just don't see it as an area where you're going to really improve your dog's outcomes, no matter what protocol you follow. For example, each time you are x-rayed, you increase your chances of certain cancers, but that increase is absolutely insignificant when you compare it to the risk of whatever it is you're getting the x-ray for.

I absolutely think it makes sense to take steps to lower the risks of vaccines without increasing the risk of diseases. Why not? The 3-year rabies thing is one. Spacing out the puppy vaccines across several appointments is another (though I wonder about the risk/reward ratio when extra visits means re-exposing your pup several times to strange and sick dogs at the vet).

The thing I really reject is the idea of wholesale blaming vaccines for problems that they have nearly no effect on, as if all our dogs' health problems appeared after the vaccine era and dogs almost always lived long, healthy lives and almost never got cancer before it. If vaccines are increasing cancer risks, they are doing it at an almost undetectable rate. So no matter what you do with vaccine protocols, I don't think you're going to really change outcomes significantly for a given dog.

If only people spent as much energy keeping their dogs lean as they do pondering vaccine issues. Keeping a dog lean provides more (and cheaper) protection from disease—including many autoimmune problems and some cancers—than almost any other single thing you can do. I can't tell you how many times a client or a person at a dog training event has talked to me about cutting-edge vaccine protocols or high-end dog food without seeming to realize that the dog at the other end of the leash is moderately overweight.


----------



## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> Cancer and auto-immune disease are not _caused_ by vaccines. I think it's possible that vaccination increases the _rates_ of them, but that the increase in risk is tiny, so small that it's hard to see for sure when researchers study it.
> 
> 
> 
> .



I agree completely with the overall thought of what you are saying.
I want to point out that there is one cancer that I'm aware of that is a direct result of vaccines. 
Vaccine Associated Sarcoma (VAS), its mainly a cancer that cats get but it is possible that dogs get it. It's pretty rare, but very bad prognosis. My vet who has been practicing for 20years said he has seen 4 of them, one that he vaccinated himself. I've been told its why in cats they give the vaccines in the hind leg-so they can amputate if necessary. Also rabies in right let and FELv in left so they can tell which vaccine caused it. This is also why many cats get the pure-vax rabies. They need it annually but it is safer.
But, case in point, yes they can get this tumor but its very rare and the risk of getting the disease is much greater.


----------



## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

Jennifer1 said:


> I agree completely with the overall thought of what you are saying.
> I want to point out that there is one cancer that I'm aware of that is a direct result of vaccines.
> Vaccine Associated Sarcoma (VAS), its mainly a cancer that cats get but it is possible that dogs get it. It's pretty rare, but very bad prognosis. My vet who has been practicing for 20years said he has seen 4 of them, one that he vaccinated himself. I've been told its why in cats they give the vaccines in the hind leg-so they can amputate if necessary. Also rabies in right let and FELv in left so they can tell which vaccine caused it. This is also why many cats get the pure-vax rabies. They need it annually but it is safer.
> But, case in point, yes they can get this tumor but its very rare and the risk of getting the disease is much greater.


I lost a cat to VAS, grew right between her shoulder blades where she'd been vaccinated...


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Jennifer1 said:


> I agree completely with the overall thought of what you are saying.
> I want to point out that there is one cancer that I'm aware of that is a direct result of vaccines.
> Vaccine Associated Sarcoma (VAS), its mainly a cancer that cats get but it is possible that dogs get it.


You are absolutely right. That's one cancer that you can pretty confidently say is "caused" by vaccines in that there's really no way that a cat or dog would get it without the vaccination.


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

I think their Is very few studies on the subject of vaccination, probably because it is a source of income and for many smaller clinics a substantial one, and the pharma companies do have a lot of the system in their pocket, that being said, I've seen a fair bit of circumstancial evidence connecting long term regular vaccination to autoimmune disorders and certain types of cancers, in addition many of the ingredients are known to cause harm to your dog and some are labeled carcinogens, aluminum causes degeneration of the brain and nervous system, and thimerosal and extreme neurotoxicant and a 2006 UC Davis study suspected that its an immunitoxicant as well


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Changed my mind. Not going to take the bait.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Tahnee GR said:


> I found this:
> 
> How Common Are Vaccine Reactions? « Tales from the Pet Clinic
> 
> ...


I dont care if 1 case of anaphylaxis occurs in every 15,000 doses given. MY dog was one of the dogs in the 15,000 that had a reaction. Thats enough for me to not want to vaccinate anymore. 



tippykayak said:


> Please also remember that just because the dog experiences a health issue in a time period after a vaccination, that doesn't mean that the vaccine was the cause. It may have been a trigger of a condition that would have occurred anyway (auto-immune disorders come to mind), or it could be a complete coincidence. _Post hoc ergo propter hoc_. Correlation does not prove causality.


So basically your saying that the health issues mine experienced the day after receiving a vaccine must be coincidental? You know how incredibly hard it is to watch your dog almost die two times? First two boosters only had a mild reaction, fine, I can deal with it. The 16 week booster and rabies caused him to nearly pass out, then the next day he started to itch so bad (no steroids helped him), he had every test under the sun and the vet said "Oh just allergies no such thing as a vaccine reaction". Fine...took only 3 months for his fur to grow in. Yearly booster/rabies. Throat started to swell, and the day after he started the itching fit again. This time, he looked like a hairless dog walking around. Tested for mange and all that came back nothing. Slowly over a period of 3-4 months he eventually got his fur back. One spot never did grow back....theres just a little fuzz there

Do you really think I wanted to go through this again when his vaccine came due? No. First my vet gave me a 3 year only granted it for 2. I reported that and the OVC dealt with it because that was illegal for them to do without my written informed consent to off label use which they didnt have. So I got an additional year out of that vaccine. Then when they mailed me the reminder I threw it out. The two serious reactions got worse after another. Im not vaccinating him...and I really dont care who agrees. Rabies isnt very popular here anyway. On top of this my dog has allergies and pannus/dry eye which are both made waaaay worse by vaccines. Why would I vaccinate my dog to make his conditions worse. Even if he never had that reaction, the medical conditions alone are enough for me to not vaccinate him again

My dog almost died 5 years ago after receiving his last set of shots. It was the last set he received. 

As for my cats....they are indoor and the one only had the boosters and 1 rabies to get neutered and the other one has no vaccines. 

Ruby has an updated rabies. Thats it. Hasnt seen a booster in 9 years. 

As for any other dogs that come into my house, they will be vaccinated just not how all the vets in my area want them to be


----------



## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

A1Malinois said:


> So basically your saying that the health issues mine experienced the day after receiving a vaccine must be coincidental?


Basically no, thats not what he said. And I think you know that. 



> You know how incredibly hard it is to watch your dog almost die two times?


 Yes. Yes I do. Except my dog actually did die, not just almost. In fact I got to weep like a small child over his body as the poison I approved to be administered flowed through his veins and strangled the life out of him. Pretty sure Tippy has had the same experience.


> First two boosters only had a mild reaction, fine, I can deal with it. The 16 week booster and rabies caused him to nearly pass out, then the next day he started to itch so bad (no steroids helped him), he had every test under the sun and the vet said "Oh just allergies no such thing as a vaccine reaction". Fine...took only 3 months for his fur to grow in. Yearly booster/rabies. Throat started to swell, and the day after he started the itching fit again. This time, he looked like a hairless dog walking around. Tested for mange and all that came back nothing. Slowly over a period of 3-4 months he eventually got his fur back. One spot never did grow back....theres just a little fuzz there
> 
> Do you really think I wanted to go through this again when his vaccine came due? No. First my vet gave me a 3 year only granted it for 2. I reported that and the OVC dealt with it because that was illegal for them to do without my written informed consent to off label use which they didnt have. So I got an additional year out of that vaccine. Then when they mailed me the reminder I threw it out. The two serious reactions got worse after another. Im not vaccinating him...and I really dont care who agrees. Rabies isnt very popular here anyway. On top of this my dog has allergies and pannus/dry eye which are both made waaaay worse by vaccines. Why would I vaccinate my dog to make his conditions worse. Even if he never had that reaction, the medical conditions alone are enough for me to not vaccinate him again
> 
> ...


I'm sorry this happened to you and your dog. I truly am. But the sad fact of the matter is this experience doesn't qualify you to advise someone else about vaccinating their dog any more than someone who is allergic to peanuts can tell the world not to eat peanut butter.


----------



## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

A1: I do not believe either of those members were singling you or your specific instance out. From what I understood, in general terms, vaccination pros out weigh their cons, especially for things like parvo. 

Obviously your situation is unique, as is anyone who finds themselves one of 15,000 or greater odds.

I think it is admirable that we want to look at what is out there and do research and further this avenue. I know you care for your pups beyond words and it is hard not to take things personally when you are the one in the driver seat, but I think we should try to ratchet it down a level. I felt hostility from that post and I hope that that was not how it was meant. 

-signed with a kind, sincere and gently heart/voice/tone


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I had a cat who had an anaphylactic reaction to a vaccine. In her case it was most likely due to having 2 vaccines at once. Luckily we were still at the vet so they were able to treat the reaction.
Since without repeating it we would have no way of knowing if it was indeed the double dose of vaccines or if she just developed the allergy to one of the vaccines we chose to not vaccinate her again, ever. She was 9 at the time and an entirely indoor cat.
Not vaccinating does have some inherent risk (if she bites someone, if she gets outside, etc) but I decided in her case the risk of vaccinating outweighed the risk of not vaccinating.

But, my other cat and my current cats still get vaccinated. For them, I feel the risk of not vaccinating is greater.

I have a allergy to latex. If I eat certain fruits I get a pretty severe reaction that has the potential to go anaphylactic. Obviously *I* can't eat a banana or avacado, but that doesn't mean that they are bad for others to eat.


----------



## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

A1Malinois said:


> Im not trying to be rude here. But there have been tons of other members who are not veterinarians giving their advice/opinion on what vaccines to give etc. If no one but licensed vets could give their *opinion* what good would a health forum be?


The point is to make it clear that an opinion or experience is just that. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and should feel free to express them, provided they do not state opinions as if they were facts. When something is stated as a fact, I will ask for evidence. That is my right as a GRF member and my responsibility as a concerned dog owner.

I would encourage the OP to do the same in making decisions about whether and/or how often to have a dog vaccinated.


----------



## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

In order to stay on topic a little bit... I also wanted to remind the OP that if you have concerns about a serious and immediate adverse reaction, no vet worth their salt would have any issue with you hanging out in the lobby for an extra half hour or so to keep your dog monitored  Way back when, my mother's Jack Russel Terrier mix had an adverse reaction to the older, less safe distemper combo vaccine (these vaccines have since been discontinued, from what I've been told via my vet). However, it startled me justtttt enough that we usually bop around the vet socializing and training for a little while after the appointment just to be on the safe side! I know, logically, that I will probably never ever be in any scary situations caused by a vaccine but the peace of mind is nice and it gives Iorek some extra training and fun  Most vets are very understanding of doggie-parent anxiety and will let you do whatever you need to do to feel more secure, even if it's totally unnecessary.


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

A big thing is, if your dog is healthy and has no genetic predisposition to these cancers and autoimmune issues your dog will probably not get sick, that being said, if your dog DOES have a predisposition than the build up of vaccines could mean a significantly greater risk, with dogs with highs rates of cancer or autoimmune disease such as goldens, the possibility of this increasing the risk of cancer is not worth it, especially as more an more evidence arises that these vaccines last over seven years. My main concern with vaccines is not the immediate reactions, yes there have been cases of anaphylaxis and epilepsy and even death, but those risks are very small and rarely deadly, cancers and autoimmune disorders are already extremely prevalent among the canine population and the last thing I want to do is increase that risk, I'm not saying to not vaccinate, I think that puppy and booster shots are extremely important to prevent serious deadly diseases, but over doing it with in nessesary extra vaccines and boosters is a long term risk I don't think is worth taking


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Great point Mirindi!

Last time I was scheduling a vaccine the tech making the appointment mentioned they don't like to make appointments for vaccines just before lunch or just before closing time, in case there is a reaction they want to make sure one of the vets will be available.

After my cat's reaction, I personally schedule vaccinations when I can take the rest if the day off to keep an eye in them. Probably a bit of an overreaction, but it makes me feel better


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Jennifer1 said:


> Great point Mirindi!
> 
> Last time I was scheduling a vaccine the tech making the appointment mentioned they don't like to make appointments for vaccines just before lunch or just before closing time, in case there is a reaction they want to make sure one of the vets will be available.
> 
> After my cat's reaction, I personally schedule vaccinations when I can take the rest if the day off to keep an eye in them. Probably a bit of an overreaction, but it makes me feel better


I agree that's what I always do


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

drofen said:


> Basically no, thats not what he said. And I think you know that.
> 
> Yes. Yes I do. Except my dog actually did die, not just almost. In fact I got to weep like a small child over his body as the poison I approved to be administered flowed through his veins and strangled the life out of him. Pretty sure Tippy has had the same experience.
> I'm sorry this happened to you and your dog. I truly am. But the sad fact of the matter is this experience doesn't qualify you to advise someone else about vaccinating their dog any more than someone who is allergic to peanuts can tell the world not to eat peanut butter.


No, Tippy said in general a dog who suffers a condition after being vaccinated was likely going to happen anyway or was a coincidence. Since my situation was like that, I thought I would address it. I never said he singled me out, it was just in general. I respect Tippy, and understand his views/opinions thought I may not necessarily agree 

Euthanasia is different. Your dog was suffering and you chose to end his life. Thats fine. However, I can prevent my dog from having another reaction and possible death by just not vaccinating.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Hi all,

I'm just reading this thread and have noticed a lot of repetitive posting. I know this can be a hot topic and there are a lot of opinions about everything related to vaccines. But if you've stated your opinion on an issue please don't repeat it over and over....it makes it difficult for people to find the real substantive information when people keep posting the same arguments. This doesn't mean to stop posting new information, just realize if you've already said your piece on a particular subject or issue it's already in the thread


----------



## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Just out of curiosity where does one find out what is in the vaccines. After a quick search I can't find any legitimate source that says what other stuff is in there.

I know that the one my guys get is a thimerosol free vaccine. I've seen albumin as an ingredient, but not aluminum.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Jennifer1 said:


> Just out of curiosity where does one find out what is in the vaccines. After a quick search I can't find any legitimate source that says what other stuff is in there.
> 
> I know that the one my guys get is a thimerosol free vaccine. I've seen albumin as an ingredient, but not aluminum.


This is mainly for humans but the same stuff is used in pet vaccines
Vaccines: Vac-Gen/Additives in Vaccines Fact Sheet

http://birthofanewearth.blogspot.ca/2012/02/complete-list-of-vaccine-ingredients.html

http://www.sailhome.org/Concerns/Vaccines.html

Heres a list of reactions from mild to severe
Pet Vaccination, Vaccine Dangers, and Vaccinosis

I took a picture of a rabies vaccine box while I was at a clinic, that stated only to be used in healthy animals. My question is why is it being used in animals that are not healthy such as mine...dogs with cancer, dogs with allergies, dogs with autoimmune disorders...


----------



## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Thanks.
Ironically that link had 2 different brands of rabies with very different ingredients. 

Edit to add: I just read the other links about the various vaccine ingredients. Almost none of those ingredients were listed as actual ingredients in the 2 rabies vaccines of the first link. Even more reason why I'd like to find ingredients to the actual dog rabies vaccines (merial specifically for me). I don't want to make a decision based on how bad thimerosol or formeldahyde are when they aren't actually in the vaccine!

With some of the situations you've described, I'm not sure if you've just had really bad luck finding a good vet or what. The vets I've worked with have always been willing to work with me rather than dictating what I do. And actually, I was told by both my normal vet and my oncologist that no more vaccines for both of my critters that had cancer. In both cases it was a non-issue since neither one made it to the next vaccine due date, but the plan was to not vaccinate anymore.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> So basically your saying that the health issues mine experienced the day after receiving a vaccine must be coincidental?


Neither the literal meaning of what I said nor any reasonable interpretation of what I said leads to that conclusion. I'm not sure why you would say it. I have been nothing but supportive of you, your dogs, and their health issues.

What I said, just to repeat myself, is that the fact that a sickness happens after a vaccination does not mean that the vaccination caused the illness. It doesn't mean it didn't cause it either. Correlation does not prove causation. It also does not disprove it. 

If you are referring to Lincoln, he has had unique and severe health issues that no forum member or vet has been able to adequately explain. I understand why you don't want to vaccinate him anymore. I don't see how it applies to other dogs who don't have his health issues. The doc's peanut allergy metaphor is very apt.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Jennifer1 said:


> Thanks.
> Ironically that link had 2 different brands of rabies with very different ingredients.
> 
> With some of the situations you've described, I'm not sure if you've just had really bad luck finding a good vet or what. The vets I've worked with have always been willing to work with me rather than dictating what I do. And actually, I was told by both my normal vet and my oncologist that no more vaccines for both of my critters that had cancer. In both cases it was a non-issue since neither one made it to the next vaccine due date, but the plan was to not vaccinate anymore.


Sadly, most vets here have your pets health a distant second. Thankfully the one vet I see now, allows me to make my own decisions and is supportive of them for the most part. Whatever he doesnt support I dont mention it such as food. The one vet near me, said regardless of if your pet has almost died from a vaccine they need to be updated even before sedation. I think thats a bit pathetic...especially when the law states medical exemptions can be given



tippykayak said:


> Neither the literal meaning of what I said nor any reasonable interpretation of what I said leads to that conclusion. I'm not sure why you would say it. I have been nothing but supportive of you, your dogs, and their health issues.
> 
> What I said, just to repeat myself, is that the fact that a sickness happens after a vaccination does not mean that the vaccination caused the illness. It doesn't mean it didn't cause it either. Correlation does not prove causation. It also does not disprove it.
> 
> If you are referring to Lincoln, he has had unique and severe health issues that no forum member or vet has been able to adequately explain. I understand why you don't want to vaccinate him anymore. I don't see how it applies to other dogs who don't have his health issues. The doc's peanut allergy metaphor is very apt.


I just felt that you said any dog who has a health issue after a vaccine could be coincidental or is not due to the vaccine. I felt as you were saying its impossible it was connected to the vaccine. So because mine reacted twice the same way after a vaccine that it kinda hit me the wrong way so I got a bit upset over it. There was no intentions of me being rude towards you. I think the fact he had the same reaction twice is more then enough for me to say the vaccine caused it. I know its rare to have a vaccine reaction, but I have one who is allergic and therefore I get a little touchy. Sorry. 

I was trying to use that peanut butter allergy to state a point. Ill use this one instead. If your severely allergic to eggs, would you still get a vaccine for the flue or whatever? No. My doc asked me if I was allergic to eggs prior to getting my first and last flu vaccine years ago. I assume eggs is an ingredient or something that cannot be given to a patient with an egg allergy.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Be careful not to panic too easily when you look at ingredients. Sometimes things look scary on paper, but if you don't know your chemistry, you might misled. For example, there's mercury in thimerosal. Sounds scary, right? But it's an organomercury compound, not the same thing as elemental mercury, and not necessarily dangerous like pure mercury (Hg) is.

For example, elemental chlorine gas is SO INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS when it's gaseous (CL2). However, as a chlorine ion, that same element is part of table salt (NaCl or dissolved in water, Na+ and Cl-), hardly dangerous and actually an important part of the ecosystem.

So don't be freaked out when you see something like aluminum or mercury in a compound. There are all kinds of weird metal ions in the molecules we use as part of our life processes. Some might make up parts of dangerous chemicals, and some might be part of harmless or even necessary ones.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> No, Tippy said in general a dog who suffers a condition after being vaccinated was likely going to happen anyway or was a coincidence.


That's not what I said at all. I said that a condition that occurs after a vaccination isn't proof that the vaccine caused it. It doesn't mean that the vaccine didn't cause it either. The correlation isn't proof of causation either way.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> That's not what I said at all. I said that a condition that occurs after a vaccination isn't proof that the vaccine caused it. It doesn't mean that the vaccine didn't cause it either. The correlation isn't proof of causation either way.


I understand that now, Sorry


----------



## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> Be careful not to panic too easily when you look at ingredients. Sometimes things look scary on paper, but if you don't know your chemistry, you might misled. For example, there's mercury in thimerosal. Sounds scary, right? But it's an organomercury compound, not the same thing as elemental mercury, and not necessarily dangerous like pure mercury (Hg) is.
> 
> For example, elemental chlorine gas is SO INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS when it's gaseous (CL2). However, as a chlorine ion, that same element is part of table salt (NaCl or dissolved in water, Na+ and Cl-), hardly dangerous and actually an important part of the ecosystem.
> 
> So don't be freaked out when you see something like aluminum or mercury in a compound. There are all kinds of weird metal ions in the molecules we use as part of our life processes. Some might make up parts of dangerous chemicals, and some might be part of harmless or even necessary ones.



Thanks, I'm actually a radiochemist technician in my day job  
I do check MSDS for things I'm unfamiliar with-although even water will kill you if you read that without understanding what the msds is meant for!

While I will be the first to point out that all of the hoopla involving mercury and vaccines was proven to be caused by bad data (he made it up!)
Retracted autism study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds - CNN.com

But, if they make a thimerosol free vaccine, assuming what they replaced thimerosol with isn't worse, why not use it?

ETA: that is a very good point though. In my own experience, we can take the left over ash from your fireplace and detect plutonium. It is on the level of atoms, but to someone who doesn't understand that that is totally normal (fallout from days of above ground testing-literally everywhere) they would panic at the word plutonium.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> I understand that now, Sorry


No worries! When talking about a beloved dog getting sick (and who's still having issues), I understand that emotions run high. Apologizing publicly is classy on your part, and it's completely accepted.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Jennifer1 said:


> Thanks, I'm actually a radiochemist technician in my day job
> I do check MSDS for things I'm unfamiliar with-although even water will kill you if you read that without understanding what the msds is meant for!
> 
> While I will be the first to point out that all of the hoopla involving mercury and vaccines was proven to be caused by bad data (he made it up!)
> ...


LOL, nice! My comment about metal ions in compounds was directed generally, not specifically at you. I hate it when people assume I haven't done my homework, so I try not to assume it about others.

As far as being thimerosal free, I'm totally in favor, but the presumption that the replacement is safer is a big one. It takes a lot of research to demonstrate safety. At this point, because of precisely the hoopla you described, thimerosal is actually one of the most researched preservatives out there. Not that I like the idea of an organomercury preservative, but if thimerosal causes problems, it does so at a spectacularly tiny rate, so small that it's nigh-impossible to observe.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> No worries! When talking about a beloved dog getting sick (and who's still having issues), I understand that emotions run high. Apologizing publicly is classy on your part, and it's completely accepted.


Sometimes I take thing way out of context. I get super stressed when dealing with my dog, his issues and the thought of if I suddenly somehow dont come up with money I may lose him has my nerves turned. I apologize for that, and will keep doing so when I finally had the chance to calm down 

Im opting out of this thread, I am to upset to continue to contribute to it.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Jennifer1 said:


> With some of the situations you've described, I'm not sure if you've just had really bad luck finding a good vet or what. The vets I've worked with have always been willing to work with me rather than dictating what I do. And actually, I was told by both my normal vet and my oncologist that no more vaccines for both of my critters that had cancer. In both cases it was a non-issue since neither one made it to the next vaccine due date, but the plan was to not vaccinate anymore.


Just as in your experience, our vet will get a waiver for dogs with cancer.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> That's not what I said at all. I said that a condition that occurs after a vaccination isn't proof that the vaccine caused it. It doesn't mean that the vaccine didn't cause it either. The correlation isn't proof of causation either way.


Totally agree. Our Barkley, at age 12+, was vaccinated for his 3 years rabies by his holistic acupuncture vet on January 10, 2010, using reiki methods, which means he got the lowest dose possible that may or may not have complied with the state law-I didn't ask. Four days later he collapsed on the street during a walk and taken to the vet immediately. His spleen was enlarged, underwent a splenectomy and a few days later he was diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma. I seriously doubt the vaccine 4 days before caused the cancer, but I cannot disprove it with verifiable evidence.


----------



## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

Jennifer1 said:


> While I will be the first to point out that all of the hoopla involving mercury and vaccines was proven to be caused by bad data (he made it up!)
> Retracted autism study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds - CNN.com
> 
> But, if they make a thimerosol free vaccine, assuming what they replaced thimerosol with isn't worse, why not use it?





tippykayak said:


> LOL, nice! My comment about metal ions in compounds was directed generally, not specifically at you. I hate it when people assume I haven't done my homework, so I try not to assume it about others.
> 
> As far as being thimerosal free, I'm totally in favor, but the presumption that the replacement is safer is a big one. It takes a lot of research to demonstrate safety. At this point, because of precisely the hoopla you described, thimerosal is actually one of the most researched preservatives out there. Not that I like the idea of an organomercury preservative, but if thimerosal causes problems, it does so at a spectacularly tiny rate, so small that it's nigh-impossible to observe.


Actually the study that article refers to, done by Dr. Andrew Wakefield, didn't have anything to do with thimerosal. Dr. Wakefield studied the MMR vaccine, and particularly the Rubella portion of the vaccine. His study claimed to find fragments of the rubella virus incorporated into the genome and floating free in the cells of the GI tract in those babies who received the MMR vaccine. He claimed this sub-clinical infection caused the so-called "leaky gut syndrome". That much of study was actually solid science. What he then did was correlate that to causing autism--mostly by manipulating and fabricating data. It's a real shame, because this idea of "leaky gut syndrome" is one that I think has merit, and its credibility as a theory took a big hit when Wakefield's findings proved to be not credible.

Thimerosal is a controversial subject, and like many there were studies that supported both sides of the argument. In the end, many manufacturers moved away from using it voluntarily (in human vaccines anyway)--albeit with some heavy "unofficial" pressure from the FDA if I remember correctly. I think the idea was that if the FDA actually forced them to take it out, it opened the door for litigation from those that received thimerosal containing vaccines.

Thimerosal and aluminum compounds (as I understand it) are used as preservatives for multidose vials. The easiest way around that whole issue is to request single dose vials of vaccines because they often don't contain preservatives at all. If your vet (or physician) says they don't carry the the single dose vials, you can often buy your own and have it drop shipped to their office. (I haven't ever had to do that, most are very accommodating, although it may be more expensive.)


----------



## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Interesting, not sure why I always thought it had to do with thimerosol. I will admit to never reading the actual study or even really looking into it in detail. I guess that just proved the point to actually research something!


----------



## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

Jennifer1 said:


> Interesting, not sure why I always thought it had to do with thimerosol. I will admit to never reading the actual study or even really looking into it in detail. I guess that just proved the point to actually research something!


Haha, no worries. I hope I didn't come across as trying to lay down a smack down. I really just wanted to share the info.:wavey:


----------



## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Not at all, I'm glad you spoke up. I'd rather know the "real" story!
It actually made me look into the actual studies. I have celiac disease and have read that there is some correlation between that and leaky gut.

More knowledge is never a bad thing!


----------



## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Jennifer1 said:


> Not at all, I'm glad you spoke up. I'd rather know the "real" story!
> It actually made me look into the actual studies. I have celiac disease and have read that there is some correlation between that and leaky gut.
> 
> More knowledge is never a bad thing!


With apologies for an off-topic post, I was once diagnosed as celiac after an allergic reaction to an antibiotic. After three years of the gluten-free diet plus lots of probiotics and B vitamins, I am definitely NOT celiac, getting normal results in blood tests and the biopsy. Maybe that's a topic for a new thread.


----------



## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

GoldensGirl said:


> With apologies for an off-topic post, I was once diagnosed as celiac after an allergic reaction to an antibiotic. After three years of the gluten-free diet plus lots of probiotics and B vitamins, I am definitely NOT celiac, getting normal results in blood tests and the biopsy. Maybe that's a topic for a new thread.


That is pretty much the hallmark of leaky gut. 

It's a part of antibiotic overuse that doesn't get talked about as much as resistant organisms. Antibiotics are pretty indiscriminate when it comes to killing bacteria, taking out good, bad, and indifferent. It can literally take years to rebuild a healthy flora, and frankly we're likely more susceptible to getting sick during that time.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Jennifer1 said:


> Interesting, not sure why I always thought it had to do with thimerosol. I will admit to never reading the actual study or even really looking into it in detail. I guess that just proved the point to actually research something!


The reason I connect the Wakefield study and thimerosal in my head is that so many parents of autistic children since that study have blamed the mercury in it (incorrectly, if the vast body have research has any merit) as the cause of their kid's autism.


----------



## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

GoldensGirl said:


> With apologies for an off-topic post, I was once diagnosed as celiac after an allergic reaction to an antibiotic. After three years of the gluten-free diet plus lots of probiotics and B vitamins, I am definitely NOT celiac, getting normal results in blood tests and the biopsy. Maybe that's a topic for a new thread.


So did you actually test positive or were you diagnosed on symptoms?
It's interesting because I believe you are never "cured" of celiac. And my understanding is that the tests are pretty specific.

Part of me always doubts my diagnosis-more so around Girl Scout cookie time! I'm actually very strict about my diet, but do sometimes wonder-wishful thinking I believe!


----------



## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Jennifer1 said:


> So did you actually test positive or were you diagnosed on symptoms?
> It's interesting because I believe you are never "cured" of celiac. And my understanding is that the tests are pretty specific.
> 
> Part of me always doubts my diagnosis-more so around Girl Scout cookie time! I'm actually very strict about my diet, but do sometimes wonder-wishful thinking I believe!


As drofen observed, my story is pretty much the definition of leaky gut. I will PM you about this to avoid further derailing this thread.

To the point of the thread, I have personal experience with severe reactions to prescribed treatments, multiple chemical sensitivities, and reactions to vaccines. All are very painfully real. I am delighted to see them discussed thoroughly and carefully.


----------



## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

From the moment I looked into the claim that autism was being increased by mercury I knew it was a load of ---- . It's a shame because many legitimate studies have to deal with that bad press. Afew years back the FDA was under a lot of pressure to get rid of thimerosal in vaccines, and most human vaccines don't have it any more. In the animal vaccines, At least the DHPP I believe both aluminum and thimerosal are in it. If they would get rid of these ingredients which are known to be harmful I may consider getting the non core vaccines so long as I assess the risk of live animal proteins in it.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Tuco; said:


> In the animal vaccines, At least the DHPP I believe both aluminum and thimerosal are in it. If they would get rid of these ingredients which are known to be harmful I may consider getting the non core vaccines so long as I assess the risk of live animal proteins in it.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Where do you find that information? I'm not asking about general information about what bad things POSSIBLY are in vaccines, I'm asking about specifics. Like what is in the Pfizer vanguard 5 plus vaccine? 
There is virtually no way I would not vaccinate my dogs for core vaccines, but I am curious with all of this debate about vaccines, what EXACTLY is in these vaccines. I can't seem to find anything so I'm not sure if its proprietary or something?


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Jennifer1 said:


> Where do you find that information? I'm not asking about general information about what bad things POSSIBLY are in vaccines, I'm asking about specifics. Like what is in the Pfizer vanguard 5 plus vaccine?
> There is virtually no way I would not vaccinate my dogs for core vaccines, but I am curious with all of this debate about vaccines, what EXACTLY is in these vaccines. I can't seem to find anything so I'm not sure if its proprietary or something?


I think it works great to ask your vet which vaccine they're using and what preservatives are in it. They should know that, right?


----------



## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> I think it works great to ask your vet which vaccine they're using and what preservatives are in it. They should know that, right?


You can ask them for a "package insert", it will have more info than you'll know what to do with on it, including what exactly is in the vial.


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Here is a really comprehensive article about immunity and vaccinations. It goes into lots of details about the key diseases for which we vaccinate and why, and also explains the process by which the immune system functions, and how vaccinations function, as well the rationale for the most recent vaccine protocol recommendations, and explanations of the ways immune serology can be used to optimize response, while limiting the number of vaccinations required. 
http://www.wsava.org/sites/default/files/WSAVA_OwnerGuidelines_September2010.pdf


----------

