# Field vs. Conformation Dog



## cjpayne523 (Apr 5, 2010)

Hi. I'm new to this forum and the greater world of GRs... but have had working breeds for years and have competed in conformation, herding and obedience. 

We recently lost our GR girl of 15 years and are considering a new puppy. My first question is... is there a great difference between a GR bred for field trials and one bred for conformation? In my limited exposure to this breed, it appears to me that the majority of GRs are bred for one or the other... but not both. Is this a true observation? If we pursue a puppy, I would personally want it to excel in both pursuits... how could I best accomplish this? 

Thank you for your insights.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Yes, there are distinct lines of goldens that excel in one area or another. There are some dogs that can be shown in conformation and can be competitive in hunt tests. Field trials are different. It has been many a year since there has been an AKC conformation champion that was competitive in field trials. There has been one Candian CH/FC/OTCH.

What is your previous showing/trial experience? What are your goals with a new pup? Do you want to show in conformation? Do you want to compete in field trials or would hunt tests be your goal? If you want to compete in conformation, you need a dog bred for conformation, but if you "just" want a dog that is conformationally correct, many field dogs can get a CCA. If you want to do field trials, you will need a dog bred for such and lots of good help from a training group/club. For hunt tests, field bred dogs can be a bit more instinctive and often have more drive, but a properly bred conformation dog can do hunt tests quite well (look for high level field titles in the pedigree).


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

There are definitely very good breeders who do both with their dogs--and there are definitely those that breed with only one thing in mind  If you do your research though, you shouldn't have a problem getting a dog from multipurpose parents.

EDIT: That is to say, field as far as hunt tests go. I think it is different with field trials--but I understand those are crazy competitive anyway and debatable as to whether or not a golden was really bred for those type of trials.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Yes there are very distinct types of goldens based on the competitive pursuits of the breeder.
You also must understand there is a WORLD of difference between FIELD TRIALS and HUNT TESTS. Field trials are like the Indy 500 of retrievers. Very very *VERY* few goldens who are not from strictly field trial bred pedigrees compete in field trials, much less have any success with them. 
Hunt tests on the other hand, are much less physically demanding than field trials. The higher level HTs are very demanding, and a dog who excels in higher level HTs is nothing to sneer at....but it is a world of difference between field trials. You will, however, find MANY "multipurpose" or conformation bred dogs competing in hunt tests. The Junior (entry level hunt test) is very do-able for any conformation bred dog -- Senior an obtainable goal for a breed dog with better than average mental capacity, drive and physical stamina. Master is, well, Master -- superb hunting dog!
The mental and physical qualities that are required to do well in field work lend itself to a dog who is more than capable at excelling in obedience, agility and tracking. The inverse is not necessarily true, I know plenty of high performing obedience and agility dogs who are not birdy and do not have the fortitude to compete in field at high levels. 
Also -- just because a dog has wonderful structure and type and excels in the breed ring -- means absolutely nothing in the hunting field. 
So the bottom line is, if you have any thoughts of competing in field trials, then buying from field trial stock is imperative. Same for the breed ring. However if your thought is a multipurpose dog who can do a little breed ring, some hunt tests, and obedience/agility/tracking -- there are many fine breeders out there breeding dogs who are good looking enough to hold their own in the breed ring, but still have the mental talents to do well in field and performance events. (These are my favorite kind  )
Please feel free to PM me if you'd like help finding breeders of multipurpose goldens.


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## cjpayne523 (Apr 5, 2010)

IowaGold said:


> Yes, there are distinct lines of goldens that excel in one area or another. There are some dogs that can be shown in conformation and can be competitive in hunt tests. Field trials are different. It has been many a year since there has been an AKC conformation champion that was competitive in field trials. There has been one Candian CH/FC/OTCH.
> 
> What is your previous showing/trial experience? What are your goals with a new pup? Do you want to show in conformation? Do you want to compete in field trials or would hunt tests be your goal? If you want to compete in conformation, you need a dog bred for conformation, but if you "just" want a dog that is conformationally correct, many field dogs can get a CCA. If you want to do field trials, you will need a dog bred for such and lots of good help from a training group/club. For hunt tests, field bred dogs can be a bit more instinctive and often have more drive, but a properly bred conformation dog can do hunt tests quite well (look for high level field titles in the pedigree).


I've shown rotties in conformation over the last ten years... our single GR was the pack alpha in a Ghandi sort of way.  Working titles are limited to obedience and herding... so I know nothing about hunting tests or field trials... but I learn fast. I tend to prefer working trials over conformation but am happy to do both. I now live in SE WA where bird hunting is popular and I've met a couple of folks that work their Labs in field trials. It sounds like fun.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

cjpayne523 said:


> I've shown rotties in conformation over the last ten years... our single GR was the pack alpha in a Ghandi sort of way.  Working titles are limited to obedience and herding... so I know nothing about hunting tests or field trials... but I learn fast. I tend to prefer working trials over conformation but am happy to do both. I now live in SE WA where bird hunting is popular and I've met a couple of folks that work their Labs in field trials. It sounds like fun.


I'd definitely go with conformation lines then if you want to show. It might take a bit to find the right line that can do field stuff too, but it's definitely doable. Personally, I'd get involved with hunt tests if you don't have lots of previous field experience. You can still train with field trial people, but you'll have more success at hunt tests. Field trials are your basic head to head competition, so there is only one winner. Hunt tests are non-competitive, so as long as your dog can do the work you will get a leg (the work isn't terribly easy at the upper levels!).


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

cjpayne523 said:


> I've shown rotties in conformation over the last ten years... our single GR was the pack alpha in a Ghandi sort of way.  Working titles are limited to obedience and herding... so I know nothing about hunting tests or field trials... but I learn fast. I tend to prefer working trials over conformation but am happy to do both. I now live in SE WA where bird hunting is popular and I've met a couple of folks that work their Labs in field trials. It sounds like fun.


I also agree with IowaGold and k9design that you should consider a "conformation bred" golden with versatility in the lines (hunt and obedience titles, for example).

I know we could debate this 'round and 'round, and I don't want to talk out of turn as I have yet to participate in a hunt trial, but it is my understanding that when you compare the drive of the average lab, and the drive of the average golden, it's not a fair comparison. Labs were bred with a higher drive, and that is why (I've been told) they do so much better in field trials than other retrieving breeds, including their cousins, the goldens.

Goldens were the retrievers for Scottish and English Royalty--bred to provide company as a "gentleman's hunting dog" during their hunts. Drive was not as intense as the blue collar lab.

If you're intent on being a success at field trials like your lab friends, you may also be better off looking at labs--just sayin'. Don't know how important that is to you. I've been to one hunt test and I think they are fun and perhaps you should check out a hunt test too and visit and see the difference and see if you would like it.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Check out the Phoenix X Chase breeding. It could produce some really nice all-around pups.http://www.gaylans.com/puppies.html


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

cjpayne523 said:


> Hi. I'm new to this forum and the greater world of GRs... but have had working breeds for years and have competed in conformation, herding and obedience.
> 
> We recently lost our GR girl of 15 years and are considering a new puppy. My first question is... is there a great difference between a GR bred for field trials and one bred for conformation? In my limited exposure to this breed, it appears to me that the majority of GRs are bred for one or the other... but not both. Is this a true observation? If we pursue a puppy, I would personally want it to excel in both pursuits... how could I best accomplish this?
> 
> Thank you for your insights.


There is a great deal of difference. There are very few dogs from conformation lines that have success in Field Trials and the upper levels of Hunting Tests. The same applies to Field dogs attempting the Conformation Ring, little or no success. 

Pick the venues that interest you most and select a pup bred for those ends.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

rappwizard said:


> If you're intent on being a success at field trials like your lab friends, you may also be better off looking at labs--just sayin'. Don't know how important that is to you. I've been to one hunt test and I think they are fun and perhaps you should check out a hunt test too and visit and see the difference and see if you would like it.


But Labs are even more split than goldens! It can be hard to find a conformation line that can do anything field-wise with labs, much less field trials.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I would venture to say it's tough to find a dog who can do both, but not impossible. You have to decide if you want a specials conformation dog who can dabble in field, or a hunting dog who can dabble in conformation. Usually breeders don't mix the two but some have. I have a girl who comes from mainly conformation lines on her mom's side (her mom has titles plus her CH and plays in specials here and there) and her dad is Push (the only Canadian CH/FC/OTCH). She's correct but not what I'd say is in style in the show ring, she lacks the bone and fluff you would expect from a 'show' dog. However she will likely get in the ring this year as well as doing her agility and obedience, and her brother has his CH as well as field, agility and obedience/rally titles. Again not a specials conformation boy but he's a nice dog.

Lana


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## winewinn (Jan 7, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> There is a great deal of difference. There are very few dogs from conformation lines that have success in Field Trials and the upper levels of Hunting Tests. The same applies to Field dogs attempting the Conformation Ring, little or no success.
> 
> Pick the venues that interest you most and select a pup bred for those ends.


That is a great point. With the current breeding I have, I was encouraged to breed my MH female (daughter of FC/AFC parents) to another FC. Even some of the dogs competing in hunt tests aren't capable of the higher level field trial work.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm wondering if another reason why not too many conformation goldens show up in the fields is about the same reason why they aren't always going from the conformation ring to the obedience ring. 

There is a LOT of training involved with field work - and I mean the field trials from what I've heard about from people who do it. There's a lot of precision work and obedience training involved. 

I'm not sure if a lot of conformation people have the time or desire to devote all of that time to training their dogs, again even if the dogs show natural ability and actually DO go out hunting with their people. 

So I think if we don't have dual champions, it's mainly because of failure of application, not ability. And it's not just conformation people avoiding obedience training, because plenty do all of that with their dogs but skip field work. Which is a shame.

There's no reason why a golden retriever who excels in utility (where there are a LOT of conformation type goldens exceling) where he is trained over and over to pick up gloves and articles wouldn't or couldn't follow the trainer's direction to pick up birds (and isn't that every dog's dream to be TOLD to pick up live or dead animas?!).

I was sorry to see the other thread closed, because I did have that comment. Sorry if this is out of place. :doh:


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Megora said:


> I'm wondering if another reason why not too many conformation goldens show up in the fields is about the same reason why they aren't always going from the conformation ring to the obedience ring.
> 
> There is a LOT of training involved with field work - and I mean the field trials from what I've heard about from people who do it. There's a lot of precision work and obedience training involved.
> 
> ...


Time and money I think! It costs a lot of money to get a CH and I don't even want to think of how much it would cost to train and campaign for a FTCH. Plus, I think most FTCH are professionally trained which is even more money and time away from home.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> There is a great deal of difference. There are very few dogs from conformation lines that have success in Field Trials and the upper levels of Hunting Tests. The same applies to Field dogs attempting the Conformation Ring, little or no success.
> 
> Pick the venues that interest you most and select a pup bred for those ends.


Is there a personality difference between field lines and conformation lines or is it primarily a matter of training (nature vs nuture)? Are you ever able to assess a young or adolescent golden retriever to determine what venue they are likely to excel at?


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## marsh mop (Mar 13, 2009)

A field trial is beyond crazy, maybe less than 1%- of all dogs in the world could finish a AM or open. 300+ yards is the norm with huge factors thrown in, triples or quads with tightmarks. A hunt test is not so much crazy stuff going on, still tough though, actually very tough. FTs are about competing with the best.
Anney has agreed to show my field breed dog in the show ring in a few months. Of course I have not told her of my plans yet.
Jim


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## marsh mop (Mar 13, 2009)

SEE BELOW
Jim


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## marsh mop (Mar 13, 2009)

"That is a great point. With the current breeding I have, I was encouraged to breed my MH female (daughter of FC/AFC parents) to another FC. Even some of the dogs competing in hunt tests aren't capable of the higher level field trial work"
You have that now! FC or AFC is there.
Jim


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Bender said:


> I would venture to say it's tough to find a dog who can do both, but not impossible. You have to decide if you want a specials conformation dog who can dabble in field, or a hunting dog who can dabble in conformation. Usually breeders don't mix the two but some have. I have a girl who comes from mainly conformation lines on her mom's side (her mom has titles plus her CH and plays in specials here and there) and her dad is Push (the only Canadian CH/FC/OTCH). She's correct but not what I'd say is in style in the show ring, she lacks the bone and fluff you would expect from a 'show' dog. However she will likely get in the ring this year as well as doing her agility and obedience, and her brother has his CH as well as field, agility and obedience/rally titles. Again not a specials conformation boy but he's a nice dog.
> 
> Lana


Are you referring to a specials dog in the sense that it is a champion who is being campaigned? That would need to be clarified. There is pretty much no way that a Special could be doing field work while being campaigned. A specials dog is gone and being shown pretty much every single weekend, and usually a campaign is contracted for at least a year, usually two, depending on the goal. The same is true for a field trial dog. "Dabbling" in one or the other is a very different story.
Many dogs finish who are not specialed. And a lot of people do various field venues without going for a FTCH.

The goal for Sabre was a dual. He did attain his CH but would have never been a specials dog. An _unbelieveable _amount of time and money went into him during the journey. It's too bad he didn't quite do it.


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## winewinn (Jan 7, 2008)

marsh mop said:


> "That is a great point. With the current breeding I have, I was encouraged to breed my MH female (daughter of FC/AFC parents) to another FC. Even some of the dogs competing in hunt tests aren't capable of the higher level field trial work"
> You have that now! FC or AFC is there.
> Jim


Goal is to maintain, not breed down.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Megora said:


> I'm wondering if another reason why not too many conformation goldens show up in the fields is about the same reason why they aren't always going from the conformation ring to the obedience ring.
> 
> There is a LOT of training involved with field work - and I mean the field trials from what I've heard about from people who do it. There's a lot of precision work and obedience training involved.
> 
> ...


Lack of time is a factor, but is really more relevant where it concerns conformation dogs not doing the upper levels of hunt tests, like master, or even senior. 

As far as field trials are concerned, yes a dedicated and thorough education for the dog is necessary but it is also a matter of inherent talent. Unless you are specifically breeding for the traits necessary to be successful in this "extreme sport" the dog is not going to succeed. Even among those bred specifically for that work these titles are incredibly difficult to obtain. One of my friends got her girl's AFTCH this year--Silk was 8 and comes from an entirely field pedigree. It has still been an uphill battle to get the wins over the labradors. For example at the US National Open this year there were 97 dogs entered, and 104 qualified--only one was a Golden retriever. It is a whole other world!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

This is what I'm curious about -- the "inherent talent." How do you assess that or recognize it? What is the behavior or the personality that you look for?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Lack of time is a factor, but is really more relevant where it concerns conformation dogs not doing the upper levels of hunt tests, like master, or even senior.


I'm going to imagine this is the ability of the breeder or co-owner being able to get the dog out to a field training facility as much as possible. <- Somebody I know who did get a Master Hunter title on one of her dogs (not goldens) this past summer trained them every single day. I think that even when she was away on vacation she still lined somebody up to train the dogs every day. 

I'm going to guess that isn't for everyone, even if they weren't showing in conformation all the time (if they just send the dog away for a couple months to quickly get that CH). 

Can I ask.... what is inherant talent? 

Is it a strong retrieve instinct + ability to work closely with the owner + ability to think independantly? Plus stamina? Plus a high prey instinct? 

I know that 2 out of 4 of the goldens I've owned were like that. Or started out like that. So I was under the impression that the "starting stuff" is something that does show up in conformation lines at least a good portion of the time, but (as in the case with my guys) gets ruined by lack of proper training. 

My other question (or two)... 

Is it absolutely necessary to do the 'force fetch' method? Or why would you do that if your dog already has a high retrieve drive and desire to please? 

Is it OK for people to bring non-participating dogs to a hunt test? The only reason why I'm asking is I was thinking about training Jacks at least for the JH test. I've talked with people at class about their experience, and it sounds like he would do fine. But I don't want to go that direction if he can't handle the noises at a hunt test. One person told me that there might be the sounds of gun shots in the area.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

> Is it absolutely necessary to do the 'force fetch' method? Or why would you do that if your dog already has a high retrieve drive and desire to please?


No it is not required. There are people out there successful without training ff. The idea behind ff is come heck or high water, or a bunny running across the field in your test what will your dog do? FF and CC help condition the dog from a distance to do the right thing. No not required. 



> Is it OK for people to bring non-participating dogs to a hunt test? The only reason why I'm asking is I was thinking about training Jacks at least for the JH test. I've talked with people at class about their experience, and it sounds like he would do fine. But I don't want to go that direction if he can't handle the noises at a hunt test. One person told me that there might be the sounds of gun shots in the area.


We took Teddi to a Marshbanks WC to watch. The gallery is usually a bit away from the action so if your dog behaves yes he could watch. You would not want a disruptive barking dog per se. Dogs who are running do NOT watch as you do not want them to see the falls of other dogs and go hunting in those spots, thus the reason of "blinds" as you come to the line. I think talk to people who may be going and see what they say to a particular event. A club WC/WCX may be easier to go watch. They still have guns etc. The gallery people whisper when they talk. It is quieter than ANY other dog event I have attended. 

One thing that I have mentioned before, and I want to mention here one more time. I wish the AKC would require a CH in ANY breed to at least get a certificate if not a low level title in a discipline the dog is bred to do. So for a Golden I wish they would require a WC or JH in order to be recognized as a CH. I know the parent club for Labradors requires it. So you do see conformation labs getting their WC. I think herding breeds, working breeds etc should ALL be required to do this. I think it would make the breeders think about what they are producing. I am not blasting breeders, but when I was at the Lab National there were dogs who wouldn't go out in the rain to pee, they did not want to get wet. Ok my lab doesn't like the rain, but ran in the rain in agility at Lab Nat, but to hear the conformation show people say their dogs have never swam and they were LABS was sad. 

I don't think the goldens are as split as the labs are either. I have seen a few show goldens running in hunt tests... one smelled REALLY pretty. : No really he did when I got to pet him after his run.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Maxs Mom said:


> No it is not required. There are people out there successful without training ff. The idea behind ff is come heck or high water, or a bunny running across the field in your test what will your dog do? FF and CC help condition the dog from a distance to do the right thing. No not required.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You are essentially correct,but just as a clarification re: the Labrador having to have at least a WC or equivalent certificate - that is ONLY for LRC, Inc _members _to be allowed to use CH in front of a dog's name. It has nothing to do with the AKC. The concern is that "field dogs" are not similarily required to have even a single point to to show that they were considered "correct" conformationally. It's going to be the Mother of All Debates til the end of time.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Megora said:


> Can I ask.... what is inherant talent?
> 
> Is it a strong retrieve instinct + ability to work closely with the owner + ability to think independantly? Plus stamina? Plus a high prey instinct?
> 
> I know that 2 out of 4 of the goldens I've owned were like that. Or started out like that. So I was under the impression that the "starting stuff" is something that does show up in conformation lines at least a good portion of the time, but (as in the case with my guys) gets ruined by lack of proper training.


It is not a matter of it being ruined by improper training or a lack of training altogether insofar as concerns field trials. Most of the conformation dogs just do not have the stuff that is needed to be successful in a field trial, since the breeders of those dogs have not been selecting for those traits. Think of it almost as retriever IQ. The field trial dogs are akin to Stephen Hawking and Einstein--their natural faculties in regards to what they are asked to do in that competitive venue have them hardwired to not only complete, but excel in what they are asked to do. The dog who can make it through Qual but not finish an Open would then be akin to a math prof at a Ivy League college, and so on.

In a field trial, the nature of the tasks are so complex that the training is what gets them through the complex setups like the double-retired quad with one of the retireds a short hip-pocket mark, and the other a long retired past the back side of a flyer station. Yes, it takes training to do that setup successfully. But even with training it is highly unlikely that the conformation bred dog will ever do this setup cleanly when the short marks are at 150-200yds, and the long ones are 300+, with gunners disappearing, and the interaction of those marks and natural terrain factors acting to pull the dogs off line. What the field trial bred dog has that sets it apart is absolutely intense drive, natural marking ability that allows the dog to focus in on those marks despite the factors thrown at them, an incredibly high degree of trainability, and courage to push through natural factors on the way that would halt a dog without those natural abilities (this is especially imprtant in relation to water courage--the dogs who do it with style are not doing these incredibly challenging long swims because they HAVE to but because they WANT to).

Easy example here. My youngster will be 2 years old on Friday. He has a field trial lab "girlfriend" who is two days older than he is. My boy got through his JH and WC this summer. We had challenging moments because he lacks in water courage and it cost him a couple of ribbons this year. I am seriously considering not doing his orthopedic clearances as I do not think I want to allow him to be used at stud with these deficiencies, despite the fact that he is a handsome boy and placed 2nd in Bred-by at the GRCC National Specialty this year, as well as a 2nd and a 1st in Bred-by in 2 regional specialties. Water courage is a big problem in Goldens, so I personally do not feel I would be doing the breed any favours by allowing that to be perpetuated, and when I bred his mother(who does have a good water attitude) for my current litter I chose a dog with a strong working background, and good reports from his young dog pro about his water attitude specifically to address this. My boys sire is only doing conformation. By comparison, his labby girlfriend comes from a strong trial pedigree. This year she ended up being the top Derby dog in Canada, and also had Qual placements; she's turning 2 today. She is doing things I do not think my boy will EVER be able to do, and not just due to my limitations as a trainer. From the time they were puppies she would hit the water and keep going no matter what was between her and the bird. Yes, she has had the advantage of being consistently pro trained from 6 months on, but this pro has trained other dogs who have taken until 3 or 4 to obtain their MH and would never be ready to enter a Qual, as they just do not have the inherent talent for the job that she does. That is the process of selective breeding-- the field trial breeders are selecting their breeding stock for proven performance in this venue, and if you don't chose for it in your breeding you will lose what is required to *excel*, rather than be simply competant. Personally, field trials are not my goal, so I do not breed for that extreme of abilities and drive; however, I do want to breed for the qualities that will make a successful finished hunting dog--and a lack of water courage is a big problem there.



> My other question (or two)...
> 
> Is it absolutely necessary to do the 'force fetch' method? Or why would you do that if your dog already has a high retrieve drive and desire to please?
> 
> Is it OK for people to bring non-participating dogs to a hunt test? The only reason why I'm asking is I was thinking about training Jacks at least for the JH test. I've talked with people at class about their experience, and it sounds like he would do fine. But I don't want to go that direction if he can't handle the noises at a hunt test. One person told me that there might be the sounds of gun shots in the area.


If your goal is a WC and a JH it is not necessary, per se. Often as a judge, I can tell who is not force fetched though; if you want to go that route you must be extra diligent about proofing your hold and other obedience because believe me it flies out the window when you get out in that field! So often people have a visceral reaction against the very notion of force fetch, because they have visions of dogs screaming and writhing in pain, but it really should not be a brutal horror show. If it is, then it is not being done right. FF is not about MAKING the dog do something it does not want to do. It is about building control and reliability, and teaching dogs to respond appropriately to pressure, as they will face pressure not only in the process of learning the more complex trained tasks involved in the retriever games (like blind retrieves) but also because the very retrieval tasks themselves are often challenging enough to present pressure in and of themselves. FF takes that courageous dog and teaches him to attack the challenge harder and in a more focused way because it gives them the confidence to know they can work through it and there will be the reward of a bird at the end.

As for your final question, there are often unentered dogs at hunt tests--for instance we actually need test dogs, bye dogs, and pickup dogs who cannot be under judgement in the test. The only caveat about bringing an unentered dog is that they should not be in the gallery or anywhere close to the line where they could be a distraction to the working dog. Some clubs may specify that they do not want uneneterd dogs on the grounds as well. There WILL be gun shots at a hunt test--it is after all simulating hunting, and most of the Michigan tests employ live flyers, so there will actually be live ammunition in use. A better way to introduce him might be to go to a club training day where he can meet birds without gunshots, and then move a good distance away and listen to the shots at a range where it will not scare him. For your own purposes to learn about the tests you might be better to go on your own with an experienced friend, watch and ask questions as then you will be able to focus on what is happening.

I started my competitive life in Goldens doing obedience and conformation. Now those are entirely secondary to hunt training for me. Try it. You just might like it!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Maxs Mom said:


> So for a Golden I wish they would require a WC or JH in order to be recognized as a CH.


I don't know about the complexities of _requiring_ it, but I've always admired breeders who get a CH on a dog and then also choose get some kind of working title, just like I admire working breeders who get CCAs on their dogs to at least show that they're solid examples of the standard. Obviously, more challenging titles are great on both sides, but I like seeing at least some independent proof that a conformation dog can work or that a working dog is conformationally sound.

I think for a working retriever, both sides of the coin are really important.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> The concern is that "field dogs" are not similarily required to have even a single point to to show that they were considered "correct" conformationally. It's going to be the Mother of All Debates til the end of time.


That's a good point and something I thought about when a friend told me she passed the CCA on her field-bred dog. Perhaps the GRCA should recommend that all non-conformation dogs at least pass the CCA before being bred?


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I don't breed, don't intend to, in fact all my girls with the exception of Gabby who is to young, are spayed. However I plan to get OFA clearances on Quinn and Gabby, as well as a few others, and I would like to get CCA's on them too if at all possible. My reasoning is it will help people who are looking for pups to see what the parents have produced. Seeing a CCA says they are in the realm of standard. 

Yes I knew the requirement was LRC members only, I just wish the AKC would adopt it. 

Megora.... once spring comes Marshbanks has practices monthly and they welcome guests, your fee would be higher than a members, yes we pay because we have to pay Omega Farm for the use of the property. Also there are other practices you can attend if interested.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Maxs Mom said:


> I don't think the goldens are as split as the labs are either. I have seen a few show goldens running in hunt tests... one smelled REALLY pretty. : No really he did when I got to pet him after his run.


So most of the people I field train with have show labs  These dogs can do the work at the hunt test level, but there is a difference between them and my friend's field lab who is the wildest dog you ever met! He wants to go sooo badly that getting him to sit is quite the challenge. 

One girl I train with has a show lab with a SH UD and is working on MH UDX. The dog does as she is told and I think has a chance of getting an MH because of accuracy, but is also soooo slow. Just ambles on out, maybe perks up when she sees the bird/bumper, then ambles back in. There is another show lab, though, that is not that much older than Scout and is running Senior. Very nice looking boy and runs nice and clean. Still, desire does pale in comparison to the field labs.

Do you think it is possible though, to have the 'look' and that extreme desire or do you think there are conflicts?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I agree that it is not likely that there is currently a conformation dog sitting out there with the ability to become a field champ but won't be given the opportunity to try. Certainly that could be said about a lot of conformation dogs not becoming Senior and Master hunters, but I think that if there were a CH dog suspected of having enough talent to be a serious contender for a FC, that we as a fancy would be pushing to make sure that dog was given the opportunity.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

BTW, SterreGold that is an excellent post! I can't believe myself how sucked into field training I am getting. But, my goodness, my dog loves it by far more than anything else I have ever done with a dog. Haven't done agility yet, but I think it may well trump that too.

And I agree, I actually would love to see some kind of working ability even it is just a WC go along with the package of Ch. That is the point of purebred dogs, to maintain the breed standard and part of that standard is working ability. Also, I think field dogs need to get their CCA and have good structure even if not the coat, size, or substance of the conformation dogs.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Thank you for all the information, Shelly and Ann! I never really thought about the distances which these dogs are running apart from their owners. I guess I can see why it's so necessary for goldens and labs to be trained with at least an electric collar. Within a certain radius, I could correct my guy to keep him from chasing after rabbits. But beyond that it would be a huge problem. 

Case in point of how we golden owners "ruin" our dogs for these tests.... I've actually sent my previous dogs after rabbits and permitted them to catch them. I haven't done that with Jacks, but he comes alive when he sees them outside the car when I'm driving with him. I can imagine it taking a lot of training to control that drive or undo the damage. 

And the "water courage" details was fascinating. Again, something I've never really thought about. And probably another case where some owners have RUINED their dogs. I can't swim very well and am terrified of my dog getting so far out in a lake that I can't go out and get him if he goes astray or keeps going. So he's always been on a long line or encouraged to stay close to shore. <- So even if he was born with the right head, I've gone and ruined that.



> Megora.... once spring comes Marshbanks has practices monthly and they welcome guests, your fee would be higher than a members, yes we pay because we have to pay Omega Farm for the use of the property. Also there are other practices you can attend if interested.


Thanks! I'll look into this in spring. I'd like to watch the training and see what all is involved. <- The obedience training is first right now, but I'd like to at least give Jacks a chance to be a retriever. But I don't know if I want to sign up for classes until I know it's something he could handle.


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