# OTCH Dreams (Books, revisited)



## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Has anyone read "OTCH Dreams," by Willard Bailey? I bought "Remembering to Breathe" last month at the Greenville show, and LOVED it! I was just wondering if "OTCH Dreams" is good, too. I almost bought it when I bought his first book, but decided to wait. 

I'm currently reading "Man Meets Dog," by Konrad Lorenz, and "How to Teach Your Dog to Talk," by Captain Haggerty. The Haggerty book has thrown me for a loop b/c he recommends clicking and NOT treating once your dog has established the click as a secondary reinforcer (I have always paired the click with a treat, so this is really frying my brain, lol).

Thanks in advance, as usual!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

_The Haggerty book has thrown me for a loop b/c he recommends clicking and NOT treating once your dog has established the click as a secondary reinforcer_

Is he saying that the behavior becomes the reward to the dog?


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## Cam's Mom (Apr 13, 2007)

I've ben using clicker training with my now two year old...first time I've used it exclusively from puppy hood...and Taegan doesn't want a treat most of the time...she's quite happy with the clicker or a happy "good girl" (which I have always siad along with the click) from me. Usually she's so keen to move on that the treat is just slowing the whole process up for her.

Now, the other dogs come running when they hear her clicker, at 9, 12 and 13, all they want is the treat LOL!

I read the Konrad Loerenz book years ago, don't remember it all...but remember being fascinated by all his books at one time. Your new read sounds interesting. I think I'll try it, thanks for introducing it.

Margaret


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## dana (Dec 3, 2006)

i am currently reading scent of murder, and the sight


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> _The Haggerty book has thrown me for a loop b/c he recommends clicking and NOT treating once your dog has established the click as a secondary reinforcer_
> 
> Is he saying that the behavior becomes the reward to the dog?


I guess so (??). I went and looked it up in the book, and this is exactly what he has to say:

"Variable reinforcement means not giving a treat each time your dog performs, but always giving the click. Now, in every type of training, you want to wean the dog away from the reward. In other words, have the dog perform without constant petting, praising, feeding, clapping, or other rewards. Are we mean? No. We are mearly training the dog to do what we want him to do. Your dog will enjoy work, and that enjoyment will become the 'reward.' In dog training, we want to start weaning the dog early on, but not too soon. It will not be the end of the world if you keep clicking. Who is going to tell on you? Your dog? Remember that the clicker has become a reward unto itself. Instead of treating each time, treat every other time. This is where the artistry in clicker training comes in. You know what is going on in your dog's mind and adjust the reward to get the best results. As soon as you can get away with a treat every other time, then make it every third time. If you are not careful, you will develop a pattern that you are unaware of, but Jimminy will pick up that pattern. We could say that he is smarter than you, but the truth is, he has less on his mind than you do."

What do you think? Like I said, I have always paired the click with a treat. I mostly use the clicker to shape a behavior until I get it the way I want it and have it on cue, and THEN I will use variable reinforcement (without the clicker), to keep the behavior "crisp." His methodology is totally new to me!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I'm inclined to agree with you, that if you're ready to start with variable reinforcement, you're ready to be done with the clicker... or at least to come back and c/t intermittently. On the other hand, I have heard several clicker people talk about instances where you can click as a way of saying "you're right... keep going" but I haven't looked into it deeply enough to know the ins and outs.

I do believe in the argument that the work itself can become rewarding for the dog. A behavior chain is really that principle in action to a degree -- the dog keeps performing elements of the chain, each behavior being rewarded by the ability to do the next behavior, which puts the dog that much closer to the "jackpot" reward at the end...

I'm such a casual clicker trainer that admittedly, I don't have all the science down. I use lureing, prompting, shaping, guiding, etc. in my training. As far as clicker training and shaping goes, Kathy Sdao is my idol! I want to be her when I grow up! I've been to several of her seminars and am going to this one in Oct:
Cues & Behavior Chains Explained with Kathy Sdao and Dogs Of Course!

I'm also going to Washington State in Dec. to clicker train chickens with Bob Bailey. I'll get TONS of great info there!

-S


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Cam's Mom said:


> I read the Konrad Loerenz book years ago, don't remember it all...but remember being fascinated by all his books at one time. Your new read sounds interesting. I think I'll try it, thanks for introducing it.
> 
> Margaret



I just finished re-reading "The Alex Studies," by Irene Pepperberg (I have a parrot, Jaibu, so I find it fascinating), and "The Mismeasure of Man," by Stephen Jay Gould. The Lorenz book is interesting, but it's almost fun, in a way, to see how outdated it is. I love stuff like this. I'm a real nerd, LOL.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I'm inclined to agree with you, that if you're ready to start with variable reinforcement, you're ready to be done with the clicker... or at least to come back and c/t intermittently. On the other hand, I have heard several clicker people talk about instances where you can click as a way of saying "you're right... keep going" but I haven't looked into it deeply enough to know the ins and outs.
> 
> I do believe in the argument that the work itself can become rewarding for the dog. A behavior chain is really that principle in action to a degree -- the dog keeps performing elements of the chain, each behavior being rewarded by the ability to do the next behavior, which puts the dog that much closer to the "jackpot" reward at the end...
> 
> ...


Have you ever heard of Kayce Cover's Bridge and Target work? I have her manual, but it's such a rigorous program that I've never followed it. I have used a clicker as a "keep going" signal before (not with any of my current dogs, however), and it worked fine, but the dog in question was very bright and very clicker savvy. Then, recently, I've read some stuff on refining the clicker in such a way that one click means "keep going," and two clicks means "treat," and multiple clicks means "jackpot," or what have you. 

So much to explore...I love it! I just want to have all the information NOW so I can start using it. I'm checking out the Sdoa links now -- thanks!!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I think you'll really like the Kathy Sdao stuff. She started out in marine mammels, which I think that if I had it to do over again, I'd probably go that route myself! 

If Karen Pryor's ClickerExpo ever gets out your way, which is likely since I think they're up to 4 a year in different parts of the country, you should go! They have such wonderful speakers: Karen Pryor, Kathy Sdao, Steve White, Ken Ramirez (who has done some fastinating work on concept learning in dogs) and much more.

-S


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I do believe in the argument that the work itself can become rewarding for the dog.
> -S


This is very much the case with Monty, my BC. I think he usually just takes the cookie to humor me! He's not particularly foody. He will often take the treat, spit it out and then wait for my next command, which he performs with just as much verve as if he *really* wanted a cookie.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I think you'll really like the Kathy Sdao stuff. She started out in marine mammels, which I think that if I had it to do over again, I'd probably go that route myself!
> 
> If Karen Pryor's ClickerExpo ever gets out your way, which is likely since I think they're up to 4 a year in different parts of the country, you should go! They have such wonderful speakers: Karen Pryor, Kathy Sdao, Steve White, Ken Ramirez (who has done some fastinating work on concept learning in dogs) and much more.
> 
> -S


Kayce Cover started out in marine animals, too!

Actually, Clicker Expo is going to be in Lexington (not far from me!), this March (I think it's March, I'd have to double check). I was looking at the site a while back and trying to figure out how to register and who I could go with (I hate traveling alone!).

Have you been to one? Are there any particular classes you can recommend?


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I think you'll really like the Kathy Sdao stuff.
> 
> -S


Well, she lives in Tacoma, so she must be awesome! I used to live outside of Tacoma (in Lakewood, right near Steilacoom, on Puget Sound). I miss it *sooo much!*


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I went to Clicker Expo last year in Los Angeles and I'm going again when it's back in L.A. in Feb. 2008. Actually, I lucked out for both and got a chance to work in the Expo Store, so I get to go for free! I work selling merchandise during breaks and lunch and then get to sit in on the lectures.

As for what to see... I think my fave speakers are Kathy Sdao, Ken Ramirez and Steve White. I'd go see ANYTHING with any of those three.

This was really good last year: 
Left or Right? 
Modifier Cues and How to Teach Them
Ken Ramirez 
Advanced

Jesus Ruiz' work on posioned cues is probably really interesting, 'tho I haven't heard it as of yet. His Broken Clicks looks interesting.

This looks really good, too:
Working for the Joy of It 
A Systematic Look at Non-Food Reinforcers
Ken Ramirez 
Advanced 

Last year they had Attila for freestyle! 

Basically, you can't go wrong with anything by Kathy, Steve or Ken. They are also really dynamic and engaging speakers. 

Kayce Cover sounds really familiar. I'll have to look into that.

-S


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Oh - you'd love Emma Parson's "Click to Calm" stuff, too. Great story about how she used clicker training on her VERY dog aggressive Golden, Ben.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Last year they had Attila for freestyle!


OMG -- lucky you (being able to work at the Expo)!! I was really excited when I found out Clicker Expo is going to be in Lexington. When I told my friends about it (trying to figure out who might be able to go with me), they were all like "whuhhh?" <sigh> My doggie friends aren't into that kind of stuff. Most of them are just into conformation, though some of them do obedience and/or agility, but I'm almost the only one around here who uses a clicker. Sad, but true. Although, I have gotten one of my friends turned on to the clicker, and she and her BC puppy are totally rockin' now!

Attila is AMAZING! I got to see his Charlie Chaplin and his Gladiator routine at the International Freestyle Championships a few years ago and they were INCREDIBLE! I can't believe that guy used to have Neopolitan Mastiffs, LOL! What a change (for the better)!

I am definitely checking into your recommendations for the ClickerExpo. I want to go sooo badly! Though, it looks like I'm going to have to suck it up and go it alone.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Yeah, there weren't many friends from my obedience club who went... it was mostly fellow pet-trainer friends of mine who were there.

Oh well. Their loss!

-S


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I'm green with envy! I can never afford to do anything like that... and I can't leave my dogs!


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Your BC is beautiful! 

I have the book OTCh Dreams. It is VERY GOOD!! Sad in the first book...I cried. Bebop, Such a Little Spirit!...or book 2 is also good...the ups and the downs of competiton obedience are in there.

I would definetly get it. I wanted to know how the Remembering To Breathe was. Is it worth getting it?

I don't and wouldn't reccomend a clicker. You can't take in into the ring with you. So why use it. This is my point of view and our mentors (I was reading her hand-outs she gives her students and she gave them to me when we first met). I don't want to be offensive to other people...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Um, you can't take corrections (verbal or otherwise), a prong, food, or toys with you either. So what do YOU use to train?


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

I do not use a prong.....a micro prong but.....I don't have it yet. I use a buckle collar until I get the micro. Maddie isn't ready for the transition yet.

Maddie works really well off of praise...not many dogs do. A few cookies every now and then. If she did something really well....lots of praise and cookies.

Here's what my mentor says about a clicker:
It's very limiting. She also says it interferes with the extensive "communication" with your dogs or that you develop with your dog. Nor is she a purley positive trainer. You must give a correction to dogs when they do something wrong...I'm talking once they have learned it.

I agree with her. The attention programs (so far I've tried the clicker for attention...nothing else) I've expirenced are 8 weeks are dogs sitting in "heel position" teaching to be looking at you in that position....but not while moving...that's where the dog's are lost. Her attention program has worked...so far. It is pretty simple and kind of a no brainer.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Why the micro prong vs regular prong? Micro is a harsher correction.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

If your dog has learned something, truly, then he won't ever do it wrong. If he does, then your motivation is lacking, or he doesn't know what you want.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I just don't get that reasoning. You can't touch your dog, talk to him other than giving a command... etc... in the ring.

So by the theory of not using a clicker bc you can't take it in the ring... well then you must train your dog without doing anything other than giving commands 

Also if your dog is truly trained, then you will no longer need the clicker anyway.

Just my thoughts...


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## hawtee (Nov 1, 2006)

First I would like to say that not all trainers train alike. It would be boring if they did. 
I started agility with me new pup Lilli knowing she was going to be CT, this was 4 years ago. Why, because I knew it could be done and I loved the positive interaction. I have had no problem with focus and with dropping the CT. She transposed nicely into the ring as did my students and their dogs.
Because of how well she did with the CT in agility I have been doing Obedience with the CT and have not had a problem with dropping it when need be. Of course I prefer positive training. But that is just me


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Me too, obviously. I don't think everyone has to do it, but to hear somewith such an astoundingly silly reason for not using it I always just want to educate. If you don't want to use it- don't. Just like if somebody said they don't use a prong because it's "cruel" I try to educate them to the fact it's not.

Somebody who says don't use a clicker bc you can't take it in the ring obviously has NO understanding of how CTing works. If you don't even understand something minimally, how can you suggest against it (or for it, for that matter).

That was my point


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## hawtee (Nov 1, 2006)

I agree with you in all about the educating and CT . I always tell my students whoever you go with learn all that you can and then apply what training methods works best for your dog..I also agree with Steph that the micro prong is harsher than a regular one. Do I let my students use the reg. prong, yes I do, I can suggest what to use and how to use it but cannot MAKE them do it if they are not comfortable but I can make sure they do it the correct way. No yank and jerk please....
Just like I do not force CT on them, they may choose to use it or train with just positive methods, it is up to them the class runs smooth using both methods at one time


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

The micro prong isn't a harsher correction. Think of it this way...a bigger prong means a bigger correction. Maddie has had it on her once. I even felt it myself. It was less of a pinch...or jab...than a regular sized prong.

Why do you think an OTCH trainer...that would be our mentor...uses it on her dogs...when they need it...like a new dog she gets or on her 5 year old BC who has some learning problems...because he was in the birth canal too long and didn't get enough oxygen. Can you answer why an OTCh trainer would use it on her students or her own dogs? And why she personally doesn't like bigger prongs...but loves the micro prong.

Sorry to offend anyone...clicker training you have to learn the correct way to do it. I never learned and I also found it not useful. To some of you, you might have found it very successful. My dog didn't understand it. In dog training you must talk to your dog.....your voice, your actions, and "hands-on" work keeps them motivated. Not just listening to a click and once they hear that...they get a treat. 

The reason I said the up above stuff..was because on a You Tube video I saw this woman CT with her dog. It was a puppy and the puppy was learning the target stick. She said nothing to her dog...I could read from the puppy that he/she was bored. It would go sniff the ground...and she'd tap it with the stick or something like that and it would come back and she would click it. I could tell he wasn't understanding it. Or he didn't care for the click noise. 

***This post is my opinion of CT...I don't mean to offend you but I believe you can't and sometimes you can get far with a clicker. My mentor's philosphy is with hands-on work. Yes she gives a correction...some people say she doesn't...its a fun, upbeat, and motivational correction. Then they go and play to keep the dog motivated and get that "want" to work not the "have" to work...because you said so.***


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I totally agree that you have to communicate with your dog, no matter what method! Very important... I like to use a combo of all those things.

I haven't tried the micro prong so I have no opinon of it.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Thank you for agreeing with me! 

If you're interested in getting the micro-prong...go to J and J Dog Supplies.

J & J Dog Supplies - Dog Training equipment for Dog Obedience, Agility, Flyball, and more. 

They have lots of obedience training/competition supplies there. A very good store.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I don't have a dog currently that needs any prong- just three sighthounds and an old Golden. 

Keira is in Courtney's hands- we have a regular prong she uses for her. Maybe this one would work better? The dog is fine for me on a buckle collar, but tends to pull on her.


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## hawtee (Nov 1, 2006)

Trust me I am not offended by what you say..again I stress not everyone trains alike and to always have an open mind trying all things that you will feel right for both you and your dog.

Some people do not know the correct way to use a prong the same as some do not know how to use a clicker..It is what you feel comfortable with. 

The first time I showed up at an Obed. lesson with the micro (one I had borrowed) I was told to take it off and replace it with my reg. prong, that the micro was harsher..so you see 2 different sayings from 2 different OTCH trainers. Who is to say which one is right..
I think it is great that you are taking lessons from an OTCH trainer who keeps everything upbeat and fun, I feel that is the only way to go so as not to shut a dog down...Lord knows I have tons of OTCH trainers around here that I learn from and I take a piece of all of them with me when I leave.
The you tube you saw sounds very boring to me also but not everyone does it that way..


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*Sorry to offend anyone...clicker training you have to learn the correct way to do it. I never learned and I also found it not useful. To some of you, you might have found it very successful. My dog didn't understand it. In dog training you must talk to your dog.....your voice, your actions, and "hands-on" work keeps them motivated. Not just listening to a click and once they hear that...they get a treat. *_

I don't use the clicker for everything, however, I do find it to be a very powerful tool. 

In the example you mentioned above, with the puppy wandering off and then coming back for the click that sounds like classis shaping to me - where you literally sit around and wait for the dog to figure out some small piece of what you want him to do, and then click and treat and gradually up your criteria. It can take a looooong time! But, the argument FOR it is that the behavior is more solid in the dog's mind b/c he had to get there himself vs. being lured/prompted/guided, etc. and then rewarded.


I guess I'm somwhat middle of the road. I love the clicker and am absolutely fascinated by shaping a behavior and watching the dog "get it" along the way. I also can't stand watching the c/t trainers who don't talk to their dogs at all in the process. I know that scientifically it probably interferes, blah, blah, blah, but I still use lots of verbal praise and petting when I shape something - especially at a breakthrough moment.

I'm also not patient enough to shape everything, especially if I know I can lure/promtp, guide and get the behavior quicker. I use a sort of bastardized method b/c often, I'll lure or prompt and THEN click. For Quiz, that click is so salient that adding it to a lure really makes him "get" the behavior quicker and then I can wean off the food AND the clicker really quick.

When Quiz was younger, he had a really hard time (and I mean a REALLY HARD TIME) keeping his feet on the ground when he'd heel. He basically knew where heel position was, but he's such a live-wire, it was next to impossible for him to contain himself enough to actually "strut" with me. He was really trying, but it was waaaaay to bouncy. I ended up incorporating the clicker anytime I saw his feet on the ground for two steps... then three steps... then five steps, etc. It made a HUGE difference. Didn't chance how I trained the attention portion of the heeling, which was with the motivational armband and a pinch for motivational corrections. Like Pam siad, you have to be willing to consider everything, but then do what works for you and your dog.

So, why did your instructor recommend a micro vs traditional prong? I've never used a micro, but have always been told, even by my own obedience instructor (who yes, has also OTCH'd dogs) that the micro is a stronger correction. I was never interested in using one, so I didn't ask why, but my assumption would be that since there are that many more prongs on the collar, there's more to "correct" the dog with when a leash pop is given._


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Ok, I think we're all on the same page. We all have different training methods...and we'll bounce back and forth to find the right one that works for our dogs. 

On the video it seemed pretty boring...I was like wow at first but then I got pretty bored and went to something else. Yes, sometimes waiting and waiting until the dog gets what their supposed to do is the correct way. I don't have the patience to do that. And besides I dont' use a target stick. 

Before we met our mentor we had some private lessons with a trainer who used old techniques. I believe she jumped back and forth between MANY dogs. She used those techniques like collar jerking...pops that don't teach anything. Nothing was fun for the dogs. So we quit with her and I was already talking to our now mentor. 

Our old instructor told me at a show(Maddie and I did some Rally that day...Maddie wasn't acting herself...it was cold and the cold usually gets her spunky), so we NQed...because my errors and her errors. We had 2 360's and I did them opposite so 20 points off there. At the end of the day...(the day before she had asked my dad how far I wanted to get with Maddie...like what level of obedience) I told her utility...and she said well the way she acted today...she may not get there. I was pretty bummed. She told us that this was all I was going to get from her. You know, with her methods you may not be able to get anywhere. She also said we could look into getting another dog. And she named all the breeds we could get and have a good obedience dog. That is something you do NOT tell a junior handler...who really wants to do this, and someone who has a dog that has LOTS of potential. 

As we first met our mentor, she said we have a REALLY nice dog and Maddie is capable of doing obdeince. Now compare this: Our old instructor who A:told us to get another dog B:said Maddie didn't have what it takes...one instructor is and "oldie" at methods...she will NEVER look at someone elses ideas...and will ALWAYS stick with hers. Our mentor (currently) uses many people's ideas. From Sylvia Bishop's to Dawn Jecs (Choose to Heel progarm). And back to her own ideas. The mentor we have uses motivational to make the dog "want" to perform. The other one has the idea that the dog "has" to work...no matter how much your jerking on the leash. 

If you were a dog...which would you choose? Would you like your handler to be a person who jerks on the leash so much you don't want to work anymore? Or would you rather have the one that is FUN and they are worth to work with. You choose.....


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*That is something you do NOT tell a junior handler...who really wants to do this, and someone who has a dog that has LOTS of potential.* 

OK. Now you've got me curious. You're a Jr. Handler?


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Yup I am. I think I told you guys...but I don't remember.

Why are you so suprised?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Honestly? There was an air of *something* that I couldn't quite put my finger on in the tone of your emails... almost a hint of defensiveness, maybe? Well, at least that was how I intrepreted the emails... but of course, reading something and missing out of actually *hearing* it said can create all sorts of things. Of course, this has nothing to do with you being a Junior. I guess I was just surprised to learn that after having a feeling of *something* in the email that I couldn't finger. That, and it's not common to find Juniors with OTCH mentality. Heck, around here, it's hard to find a Junior that even wants to DO obedience! Good for you!

Maybe you did mention that you were a Jr. previously, but if you did I missed it.

Anyway, no matter. Like I said, I was just curious. Glad you found a trainer you're comfortable with... that's the important part!

-Stephanie


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I had no idea of your age...

I would always rather have the fun trainer if I was a dog  That's why I CT


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

I'm glad you found something you and your dogs enjoy.

I know I may sound like an adult, but I've been told I'm more mature than other teenagers seem to be. And I don't act too teenagish...is that even a word?

The reason I found this OTCh trainer was because she writes for the Front and Finish magazine. I was talking to her through e-mails...and she invited me down to train with her...the good part is...there's no cost to it...how generous! She has 19 years of expirence in the sport of obedience. She did some agility back then and she doesn't like it as much as obedience.

I know they (AKC) says the obedience numbers are declining. I personally think that juniors need to be in it more. At a trial in July...I was the only junior there. Bummer....


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Oh cool. She writes for F&F... who is it?

FWIW, I don't think I've EVER seen a Jr. in obedience here locally. Oh wait, not true... I did see a Jr. in Grad Novice a few years ago, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't showing his own dog.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Her name is Linda Koutsky...she is REALLY good friends with Yvonne. They show together and win/loose against eachother. It's quite funny. 

I wish more juniors would show in obedience.  

Oh well....I still have to be REALLY good to do obedience up here. In Wisconsin...it's really competitive...and in Illinois.

Stephanie did you recieve my private message? I didn't see you sent me one awhile back...I responded this week!


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Wow. I feel like I am jumping in on this thread a day late and a dollar short, LOL!

Creekview (name??), don't give up on the clicker! It is such an invaluable, precision instrument, that I can't even imagine living without it. My first clicker dog was a Saluki (the breed is known for being extremely independent and stubborn), and that dog totally rocked! That's what truly turned me on to the clicker. 

I don't use the clicker for everything (i.e., I would never use a clicker for stays, although some people do...but I don't even use food for stays). And, I DO own a prong collar, and I'm not afraid to use it! In fact, I had Marlowe on a prong when I first got him b/c he pulled on the lead so badly and his social attraction was so high that just turning around the opposite direction and using praise and food and doing the whole "positive" leash training was NOT effective at ALL. Plus, he was absolutely oblivious to the choke. (BTW, I believe choke chains are a lot more "cruel" than prongs! You can strangle a dog or crush a dog's trachea with a choke chain, but you can't with a prong!) Hell, Marlowe was actually pretty oblivious to the prong collar, and it certainly was not a "cure all" for his pulling!

I appreciate what you guys have been saying about different methods working for different dogs. This is so true! For example, when I first got Marlowe, I loaded him on the clicker and worked lots and LOTS of attention (praise and cookies for eye contact, always unexpectedly, just throughout the course of every day). But, when I got him loaded on the clicker and started doing clicker work with him, I thought he was retarded! He needs a lot of verbal and physical prompting ("help"). And it's not that he didn't understand the clicker, he really did, but he needs those sort of "extras."
Now, Monty, my BC, does best without a lot of "verbal diarrhea." It really cramps his style if I try to lure/prompt/aid him (although he can learn that way, too). BUT, he is the kind of dog who likes to think things through and solve puzzles. Maybe it is the way I raised Monty (he started the clicker at 8 weeks), and the fact that Marlowe didn't have that experience, who knows?

What a great thread! Now, I'm going to go back and see what all I've missed!


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

CreekviewGoldens said:


> The attention programs (so far I've tried the clicker for attention...nothing else) I've expirenced are 8 weeks are dogs sitting in "heel position" teaching to be looking at you in that position....but not while moving...that's where the dog's are lost. Her attention program has worked...so far. It is pretty simple and kind of a no brainer.


This sounds a lot like what Anne Marie Silverton does. Have you seen any of her videos? She doesn't use a clicker, but her attention work/preliminary heeling work is done in this fashion (sitting at heel, learning to give attention, and then adding distractions before ever starting to move in heel). And, oh my GAWD, her dogs have AWESOME, drool-worthy heelwork! Her method (I'm assuming if you follow it religiously), produces incredible, prancing, heeling maniacs! In fact, there is an Af in her Novice video that takes my breath away (I'm a sucker for a nice working sighthound!)! 

And, oh, by the way, Anne Marie does recommend using a prong. Some of the other things she recommends doing turns me off (slapping a dog for breaking a stay, for example). But, OMG, the heelwork she gets out of dogs is amazing.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I've basically used the Anne Marie/Terry Arnold method for teaching attention heelwork to Quiz. You need good stationary attention before you can add movement. I'm sure it could be done with a clicker - it's just a matter of being clear with your criteria when adding distractions and movement, etc.

The attention stick/armband worked really well for us, and as I said, I incorporated the clicker for certain parts of it.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Didn't chance how I trained the attention portion of the heeling, which was with the motivational armband and a pinch for motivational corrections.



What kind of pinch do you give? The reason I ask, the two obedience seminars that I've been to (two, count 'em, TWO!), both from OTCH trainers, have included the "motivational pinch." But, both trainers did recommend a pinch in the flank/lower rib area, to "correct," and get the dog into "drive." I'm gonna withhold the other info I have about my own personal use of the "motivational pinch," b/c I want to hear what you have to say. I've had two very different experiences with the "motivational pinch," producing two totally different results. I'm not happy with either of them, but that could just mean that I have been doing them incorrectly (and/or that the people who taught me how to do them were just plain WRONG!).


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Oh - sorry, I meant pinch collar... a motivational correction on the pinch collar.

Now, I goose Quiz sometimes... often in the butt if he's back it turned to me and I'm trying to get attention and he's giving me the finger, or sometimes in the side if we're heeling and he's totally phoning it in. When I do it, I put a "pssssst!" noise to it and am really upbeat and the response is always that he jumps up and barks and then we hop around and tug, etc. So yeah, it does rev him up and get him even more in drive, but it's not supposed to be any kind of uncomfortable physical correction, which is what I think of with a flank pinch or the act of "flanking" a dog.

And FWIW, no, the "pssssst!" noise did not come from the dog whisperer...... and I absolutely HATE when I'm out and somebody asks me that after hearing me do it. Ugh. Barf. Puke! (Not saying you specifically were going to ask me that... but I just wanted to clarify anyway!)


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> , but it's not supposed to be any kind of uncomfortable physical correction, which is what I think of with a flank pinch or the act of "flanking" a dog.


Oh, no, this is a "flank pinch," as instructed by *both* OTCH trainers. Not just a "goose-ing," but a reactionary, extremely uncomfortable, hard pinch. As the first trainer told me (which is similar to what the second trainer said), "if the dog doesn't *bite* you (hard!), you didn't do it right!"

BTW, I'm surprised (but happily ? so), that you do use a pinch collar. And I know that you're "psssst" wouldn't come from the Dog Whisperer. God, I have absolutely no words for what I've seen on that show. I won't even get into that!! I'm still wondering what *real* outcome was from some of the flooding that he did on some of those dogs! <vomits in mouth> :vomit:


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> which is what I think of with a flank pinch or the act of "flanking" a dog.



So, you've heard of this before? I thought it was odd that both speakers had the same recommendation -- and their training methods are otherwise diametrically opposed! But they both talked extensively about how to "flank" (I'm using your term now), the dog! (One said it was "playing the 'Monster Game'" and talked about how she'd walked into the ring with blood dripping from her hand from playing the "Monster Game" before going into the ring.)


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

OMG. Who was it that recommended that? You can PM me if you want.

I've not heard of flanking in competitive obedience, per se. Actually, the first *real* incident of flanking that I knew of what a year or so ago when the dog whisperer was sued by a local TV producer who left his dog in CMs care. The dog, among other injuries, had extensive brusing thought to be caused by flanking.

There's a woman in my obedience club who has Goldens. She's a friend of Anne Marie's. I'm told that she says if a dog doesn't whirl around and try and bite you, he's not *enough* dog... or something like that. I've never heard it first hand, so I can't really say. 

Now, when I goose Quiz in the rear, he does *sometimes* whirl around and mouth me, usually only when he's really aroused by something in the first place... but when I first teach the goose, I have food ready and waiting, so, while the initial reaction from the dog is OHMYGODWHATSBITINGMYASS!!! it quckly is diffused by COOL-FOOD!!! I suppose if I hadn't trained it that was and just ran around grabbing his ass that he may actually bite me. When I did it with Zoie, she put a little more "umpf" in her mouthing and I would sometimes end up bruised by it... but she's an awfully "bitchy" hound! *wink* And, pissing her off like that was just enough to get a really good performance out of her... I don't know if it was the adrenaline or what... but catching her off guard with a good butt pinch would zip her up nicely, and she'd go on to work with a happy, wagging tail and a rejuvinated spunky attitude. I don't think I'm pinching hard enough to hurt either dog --- but for Zoie, it annoyed her! She puts the "B" in Bi-otch!


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I've basically used the Anne Marie/Terry Arnold method for teaching attention heelwork to Quiz.



Quiz has heelwork to absolutely die for!!!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Why thank you! Hey, I'm in chat if you want to talk dog in real time...


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Our instructor or mentor calls them "Butt Tags" or AT&T. All it is, is a little tag...like the game "Tag", you played as a kid. It's nothing hard. And the dog isn't supposed to bite you. OMG!! She is a motivational trainer and I don't think her intention is to get the dog to bite you!

After you do the tag (on the butt...if you want...I personally don't but I do it on the shoulder...or where the dogs "tuck-up" should be. Immediately you go off and play...no matter how many butt tags you do in a session. When you break off and play your getting the dog engaged in you. It's to build up drive and...it's motivated!! 

I haven't watched AnneMarie Silverton videos I'm planning on getting the Novice and Focused Attention...they now came out on DVD's! More expensive but I think it's worth it.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

CreekviewGoldens said:


> Our instructor or mentor calls them "Butt Tags" or AT&T. All it is, is a little tag...like the game "Tag", you played as a kid. It's nothing hard. And the dog isn't supposed to bite you. OMG!! She is a motivational trainer and I don't think her intention is to get the dog to bite you!.



Boy, am I glad to hear that! That is definitely not the same thing that I've experienced...totally different!


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