# Conformation numbers continuing to go down, any thoughts?



## AmbikaGR

Some clubs are running AM and PM shows/trials. Others are joining clusters of other shows to help increase entries.


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## Alaska7133

It's kind of tough in Alaska. We're on our own up here. We do support the CKC show in Whitehorse, our next closest shows, but even they are 18 hour drive. So our clubs in Alaska have always banded together. Our clusters have had an allowance by AKC for years to combine shows between clubs. So our January cluster of 2 shows is the Alaska Kennel Club one day and the Tanana Valley Kennel Club the second day. So that's the good news, we've been doing that. Normally we have 2 or 3 shows on a weekend. Our member travel far for shows all over the state. To drive from our farthest south show in Kenai to our farthest north show in Fairbanks, is a 12 hour drive. Many of the specialties have always had combos with all breed clubs. So last weekend our golden specialty was the same day as an all breed, plus there was an all breed the next day. Both days the golden club had obedience/rally trials too. So I think we could only add to that by holding 2 all breed shows in a day. It was suggested, but most people are not interested in having such a long day. Our all breed shows last weekend went from 9 am to 4:30 pm, doubling that would be difficult for many people. Our obedience/rally trials started at 9 am and I think I was there until 5 pm or so.,doubling that would make a very long day. 

We still need to bring more entries in the door. Combining helps us already, but it just isn't enough. Our costs for facility rentals continue to go up, and the entries go down. 

Hank, how are you all getting through 2 trials in a day? What time do you start and end? Do you have 2 obedience rings going at the same time?


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## cubbysan

I think breeders must be more open to being mentors to the younger generations. I am fortunate that I have found a whole group to mentor me. One thing I have noticed is the average age of the people showing is closer to retirement. 

As for our club, we do try to encourage as many pet owners to join, this is what I did. From there, we get involved with helping to put on the dog shows. We have noticed that some people do get scared off when they find out that there are a lot of show breeders and serious trainers involved involved.

We all become ambassadors for the breed. Anytime I see someone with a golden, I stop and talk and invite them to join.


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## cubbysan

On our specialty we do not make any money, but our agility shows, do very well, but they are open to all breeds.


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## Megora

My experience showing my first boy has been fun. I've found people are _generally_ nice and friendly - if you are. If you are going in to set up your grooming stuff every show - you are bumping into the same people generally. 

Probably the -ish areas are where you bump into people who may be a bit more insular or probably not as nice to newcomers? Meaning, there may be people who outright ignore people they don't know already or they have some kind of chip on their shoulder or attitude that doesn't "feel" friendly, even if it wasn't intentional? 

Probably a good example - and it was something I was laughing about after it happened but did feel a little offended after.... 

So I was grooming Bertie at a show. And when I groom Bertie it's basically just bathe/dry/finish and done. Have the same routine each time pretty much. He's not shedding right now - and certainly NOT HUGE CLUMPS! 

There were other people set up around me who were stripping undercoat and stuff like that. And white tufts were rolling like tumbleweeds across the grooming tent. 

There was a golden lady set up not far from me who saw the tumbleweeds and made a point of walking over to pick them up and gave me a look like she thought I was doing all that! I guess it made sense since at the time it was just an Irish setter to my left. But the white tufts didn't come from Bertie! My best guess is it could have been from her own dog and blown around! 

And later on when I pulled up next to the tent to quickly grab the stuff I didn't want to leave overnight (dryer and toolbox), she saw me pull up where I did (essentially in an unloading zone) and was loudly complaining to somebody else about my parking right there. 

And not to pile on, but I was standing outside the ring waiting to go back in, so had to stay near the entrance. She was sitting with one of her dogs right there. While trying to keep my very-friendly-interested-in-smelling-everyone-everything dog from checking out the crowd of dogs behind me, I also had to focus on keeping him from getting too close to her or her dog. The one time he manage to look over at her dog, she was loudly correcting him. Now obviously, I was having to deal with keeping Bertie from sticking his nose up every nearby dog's butt, but the correction was not warranted considering he wasn't even close to her dog. 

It might be the lady was just having a very bad day yesterday and I was around at the worst of it LOL - because let me put it this way, I had been wondering if this was some kind of grudge against my breeder because all of the crabby stuff started after my breeder brought Bertie's brother in, saw Bertie, checked Bertie out and so on. Prior to that, this lady actually had been friendly and chirping back to me that morning as I set up! Who knows. 

My thing is that you have a lot of people who just aren't that friendly in conformation towards newcomers. Not saying they are unfriendly or having bad day like that above lady. Just they don't always put on the ambassador of the sport cloak even when they are having cwabby days.

And that was just my point really... if you are going to promote the sports like conformation, obedience, field, etc... you have to be nice to newbies and spectators. Those spectators especially - that's where you will have future dog competition people. Especially those families with the dog-crazy kids. 

I've seen people in conformation snap at spectators... and I know it happens in obedience too. I can totally agree with the impatience when somebody walks up to stand in the warm up space in front of the ring or who tries to pet your dog when you are warming up, but you gotta be nice!


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## cubbysan

I was talking to some old time judges / breeders, and they told me that it is a shame that the grooming for golden retrievers at shows has gone so overboard. They said years ago, their was not all this primping and fluffing, and a lot more time was spent socializing and getting to know your fellow everybody.


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## hotel4dogs

I think entries are down for a lot of reasons. One is that it has become very, very hard for an owner handler to finish a dog (I'm not referring to breeder/owner/handlers) on their own. The price of handlers continues to go up. Show entry fees go up. The price of hotels goes up. The price of gas is ridiculous. 
So if you are going to show your dog for a 3 day weekend, within a reasonable driving distance, you are probably looking at at least $700-$900 for the weekend, often more. We looked for the biggest shows to enter, so it often involved a 4-5 hour drive.
Hotel for 3 nights---- $300
Handler for 3 shows-- $300
Gas to/from show---- $100
Entry fees----------- $ 90
Food and misc------- $100
Tips when the handler wins )) --- $100
It's an expensive hobby.


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## cubbysan

hotel4dogs said:


> I think entries are down for a lot of reasons. One is that it has become very, very hard for an owner handler to finish a dog (I'm not referring to breeder/owner/handlers) on their own. The price of handlers continues to go up. Show entry fees go up. The price of hotels goes up. The price of gas is ridiculous.
> So if you are going to show your dog for a 3 day weekend, within a reasonable driving distance, you are probably looking at at least $700-$900 for the weekend, often more. We looked for the biggest shows to enter, so it often involved a 4-5 hour drive.
> Hotel for 3 nights---- $300
> Handler for 3 shows-- $300
> Gas to/from show---- $100
> Entry fees----------- $ 90
> Food and misc------- $100
> Tips when the handler wins )) --- $100
> It's an expensive hobby.


Yes, and that is probably the biggest reason. I also wonder if now that youth sports has grown so much, and including girls' sports, if that is where peoples' time and money a going into. All these hobbies have gotten ridiculously expensive.

My daughter is going to be in her first horse show in a couple weeks. When it is all done, it will probably have cost me over 1500, and I bought a used, cheap costume.


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## hotel4dogs

Why are they making you wear a costume??




cubbysan said:


> Yes, and that is probably the biggest reason. I also wonder if now that youth sports has grown so much, and including girls' sports, if that is where peoples' time and money a going into. All these hobbies have gotten ridiculously expensive.
> 
> My daughter is going to be in her first horse show in a couple weeks. When it is all done, it will probably have cost me over 1500, and I bought a used, cheap costume.


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## hotel4dogs

It's one of the reasons I entered big shows (ok, big brag coming....). I knew I had an outstanding dog, and the judges at the big shows would be more likely to have at least some idea what a Golden ought to look like. So the more points you can gather in one weekend, the less your total cost to show. 
We had an 8 point weekend. That was a huge $$ saver for me.


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## Alaska7133

Yes the costs have gone up and haven't kept on par with wages. 

Yes the politics are difficult between others showing dogs.

There are some other things too.
1. There aren't as many breeders breeding dogs worthy of showing. Let's face it. If rescues are having to bring dogs from foreign countries to provide dogs, then we have a problem. Which brings us to a real issue, we have decided that a golden looks like X in the show ring. If you don't breed to that standard, you will not have show puppies available. It doesn't have anything to do with the breed standard, it is breeding to the show standard. Which is obvious when you see a wonderful field dog with a CCA.
2. With so few breeders having show puppies available, those breeders are more likely to sell those show prospects to other show people already in the game and not to people new to the game.
3. Let's look at show wins. How often do you see owner-handlers win? It's very frustrating when you see a pro hanging out with the judges before or after entering the ring. They know each other well because the judges are former pros themselves.
4. Most judges are former professional handlers. The process for becoming a judge is very kind to former pros than it is to owner-handlers, so owner-handlers rarely anymore become judges. AKC reps are former pro handlers and can approve their pro handler friends as judges. So we need to look at the whole process of approving judges.

So until AKC makes showing more friendly to owner-handlers, we will continue,down this road. Why go to a show if only pros get put up as winners?

This winter I stuck around for Group and BIS last winter at a show. I had never stuck it out that long before since we never got that far. It was at that point that any owner-handlers that did make it to Group, turned their leashes over to pros. I saw pros at Group that I had not seen all day, all they were there for was Group wins. I didn't expect that. There were no owner-handlers that I remember in Group, it was a ring for pros only. How very very sad.

My goal is to finish Lucy. She's a very good dog. She is capable of finishing. But am I holding her back?


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## Megora

hotel4dogs said:


> It's one of the reasons I entered big shows (ok, big brag coming....). I knew I had an outstanding dog, and the judges at the big shows would be more likely to have at least some idea what a Golden ought to look like. So the more points you can gather in one weekend, the less your total cost to show.


Here's the thing that bothers me..... I know I have an outstanding dog. I had him up on a table sopping wet and his breeder - who is a long time professional handler and now an AKC judge looked at him and told me that looking at him on the table he is finishable. She watched him later in the ring and came up to me afterwards and told me that *with a professional handler* he would finish in a heartbeat. Meaning yeah, I'd have to pay for a handler, but they could finish him very fast. To put this in perspective, she liked him better than his brother who got his CH after 6 weekends and now is accumulating GCH points left and right and won the breed the other day. She says he is the whole package. She said definitely I can finish him, but it will take me a lot longer. And her feeling is finish fast so you can go on and do other stuff. Case in point with the boy she kept from Bertie's litter, she wants to get him into field. 

The part in bold is what bothers me and it's something I want to stick to my guns on. I don't want somebody else taking my dog into the ring. So if it takes me 2-3 years to gain enough experience and smarts out there as far as handling my own dog, it's worth it. 

@Cubbysan - not all grooming is lumped in the same shoe, I hope.


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## Alaska7133

Megora, 
Same thing here. I'll be 80 before Lucy finishes. Her sister finished with a pro in record time. I think under 10 shows. Lucy's breeder said the same thing, finish her with a pro, with you it will take a ling time. I'm also stubborn. I did use a pro for one cluster. It wasn't a lot of fun. I think the politics is worse between pros, pros are really hard on each other. So it looks like we'll continue on the March. I'll enter in shows when it's convenient for me and doesn't require driving more than an hour.


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## hotel4dogs

First, in case there is anyone here who doesn't know this (which I doubt), I didn't send Tito out with a handler. I took the middle of the road option, which was to hand him off ringside to a professional handler. I was at every show. 
I looked at it this way. There are lots of things in life which I know a lot about, but don't do myself. My medical knowledge is better than most, but I do go to a doctor. I am a heck of a great cook, but I do go to restaurants sometimes. I can sew, but I buy clothes already made. And so on.
So I can show my own dog, yes. I took the classes. I know how to do it. I put a couple of points on him myself. But I can't do it like the professional can. I can't run, I waddle. I can't stack him right, I keep messing with him. So I opted to let a professional take him in the ring. 
I know we've had this discussion before, but I firmly believe that _most of the time_ the pros win not because of who they are, but because they know what they are doing when they are out there. At our shows here, since I showed in all big shows, we have EVERY big name handler in the ring at the same time....it would be pretty foolish to say that so-and-so won because they are a big name handler. The gal who showed Tito wasn't by any stretch a big name handler compared to the others in the ring (she was the assistant to a big name handler), yet she and he had a certain magic together that made the judges stop and pay attention. She was (is) excellent at what she does.
So it depends on what your goals are. Tito didn't mature enough to show until he was about 2-1/2, and at that point I didn't want to take 4 years to finish him. Heck, he was already getting some white hairs around his eyes! THAT wouldn't have looked good in the ring, even though age related white is not to be faulted....it would look like, "good grief, how old IS this dog, and he's not finished yet??". My goal at that point was to finish the CH and get on with performance stuff, as conformation really isn't my "game". I know to some people it's all that matters, but it's not my thing. Just wanted to finish a really nice dog and move on. For others, who really enjoy the whole show scene, it's a different ballgame.


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## Megora

I was sitting down watching the bitches and best of breed part on Saturday - normally I head home right away, but this time I knew both of Bertie's brothers had a chance at winning Breed (the one won breed and the other got best of winners). But as I was sitting there with Bertie, I looked over and saw people hiding behind bushes and watching from a distance as their own dogs were being shown. 

I know that'd have to be me since Bertie is a momma's boy. Probably though I wouldn't even be allowed to go to the show because no matter where I am, he'd know I was out there somewhere. <- And I was thinking that I'd really hate that.  

So I know it's going to be HARD going forward, especially with me starting to enter Bertie in Open classes per his breeder's urging. But I'm giving myself another year or two to see.


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## hotel4dogs

I've found that, in general, if your dog knows where you are he's okay. If you are moving around, they get worried.
In general  .


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## cubbysan

hotel4dogs said:


> Why are they making you wear a costume??


We are so new to this, I am calling it the wrong thing, I think they call it show clothes. We need to by chaps, a show shirt, cowboy hat that I now need to have shaped just so, another set of show pants for a different event... and all kinds of things with bling! New saddle, bridle, rhinestone belt and earrings. I am borrowing a tail for the horse to wear under hers and a blingy halter.

The girls that have been in this for a while spend thousands on their show clothes and saddles.


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## cubbysan

Okay this thread scaring the heck out of me. 

I co-own with my breeder, and plans are that after clearances and she gets her CH, she will be bred, but heck if I am the one showing her, she is going to be too old. I am sure my breeder will handle her when it needs to be done. As it is she is slow at maturing, so we probably won't enter a show for at least another year.

One thing we are going to do for experience is start her in UKC shows.


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## Alaska7133

Barb,
The problem is that hiring a pro means you will have a higher possibility of winning because you hired a pro. Who is on the end of the leash shouldn't matter, only the dog should matter. Unfortunately dogs are shown to judges who were pros by pro handlers. Why do you think people get excited when they find out they will be showing to a breeder judge and not a pro judge? 

Cubbysan, I would focus on your daughter learning how to show your dog. She is young and more capable of understanding how to get the most out of dog. For some reason kids just get it more than us adults. Im 50 years old trying to figure out how to show Lucy and win. I'm just now figuring out how to find as much out about a judge before bothering to enter. I'm learning former pros that are now judges, are not people I want to show to. Isn't that sad?

After 11 shows, Lucy and I have zero points with a dog that is finishable. Whenever I enter the ring at least 50% or more of the dogs are being showed by pros. When I look back at the wins to pro judges, they put up primarily pros. Not so with breeder judges.

So do I bag it and go back to hiring a pro? Heck no, I'm too thick skulled.


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## Kmullen

Alaska7133 said:


> Barb,
> The problem is that hiring a pro means you will have a higher possibility of winning because you hired a pro. Who is on the end of the leash shouldn't matter, only the dog should matter. Unfortunately dogs are shown to judges who were pros by pro handlers. Why do you think people get excited when they find out they will be showing to a breeder judge and not a pro judge?
> 
> Cubbysan, I would focus on your daughter learning how to show your dog. She is young and more capable of understanding how to get the most out of dog. For some reason kids just get it more than us adults. Im 50 years old trying to figure out how to show Lucy and win. I'm just now figuring out how to find as much out about a judge before bothering to enter. I'm learning former pros that are now judges, are not people I want to show to. Isn't that sad?
> 
> After 11 shows, Lucy and I have zero points with a dog that is finishable. Whenever I enter the ring at least 50% or more of the dogs are being showed by pros. When I look back at the wins to pro judges, they put up primarily pros. Not so with breeder judges.
> 
> So do I bag it and go back to hiring a pro? Heck no, I'm too thick skulled.


I do not think all judges are corrupt. I used to think the same thing, but I really don't anymore. If you have a good dog, you need to make that dog shine. If you are not making the dog or bitch stand out then you need to work on your handling. There was a good article I read a few weeks ago in the canine chronicle. I will try and find it.

I am by no means a pro or an expert, but I try and strive to prove each time I show. What works for one dog or bitch may not work for another. It is a learning curve.

If you want to show your dog and you love it, keep at it. Don't get discouraged.


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## Kmullen

Here is one article:

Looking Back With Lee – Pro Handlers vs. Owner-Handlers | Canine Chronicle


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## Alaska7133

If that were true then nobody would advertise their dogs either. There are many ways to influence a judge. Hiring a well known and well recognized pro is one of them. And from: www.facebook.com/KabukiCartoons


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## Eowyn

Alaska7133 said:


> Barb,
> The problem is that hiring a pro means you will have a higher possibility of winning because you hired a pro. Who is on the end of the leash shouldn't matter, only the dog should matter.


But it's the person on the end of the leashes job to make the dog look his best, and that is where the pros shine. I was at a show one weekend and was shocked when the judge approached one of the older owner handlers (who once was a pro) after the show and said he liked her dog better and that he (dog) really was a lot nicer than the dog who went BOB. But he (judge) felt like he had to give it to the other dog since she (handler) couldn't run fast enough to get him (dog) to move as well as he could and the other dog who took BOB had a handler who could move him fast enough.


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## cubbysan

Alaska7133 said:


> Barb,
> The problem is that hiring a pro means you will have a higher possibility of winning because you hired a pro. Who is on the end of the leash shouldn't matter, only the dog should matter. Unfortunately dogs are shown to judges who were pros by pro handlers. Why do you think people get excited when they find out they will be showing to a breeder judge and not a pro judge?
> 
> Cubbysan, I would focus on your daughter learning how to show your dog. She is young and more capable of understanding how to get the most out of dog. For some reason kids just get it more than us adults. Im 50 years old trying to figure out how to show Lucy and win. I'm just now figuring out how to find as much out about a judge before bothering to enter. I'm learning former pros that are now judges, are not people I want to show to. Isn't that sad?
> 
> After 11 shows, Lucy and I have zero points with a dog that is finishable. Whenever I enter the ring at least 50% or more of the dogs are being showed by pros. When I look back at the wins to pro judges, they put up primarily pros. Not so with breeder judges.
> 
> So do I bag it and go back to hiring a pro? Heck no, I'm too thick skulled.


Very interesting that you say that. The specialty we had, the two junior handlers did very well.


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## Megora

cubbysan said:


> Okay this thread scaring the heck out of me.
> 
> I co-own with my breeder, and plans are that after clearances and she gets her CH, she will be bred, but heck if I am the one showing her, she is going to be too old. I am sure my breeder will handle her when it needs to be done. As it is she is slow at maturing, so we probably won't enter a show for at least another year.
> 
> One thing we are going to do for experience is start her in UKC shows.


Marie - this sounds ideal and good luck. DO NOT BE SPOOKED OFF. Or quit if it is you yourself who is interested in getting into this.  

I think based on what I'm experiencing.... there is a 1-2 year learning curve. And you starting early with Hush will help. I didn't get started with Bertie until he was about 12-14 months old. He was 17 months old when I took him into the ring the first time. 

He is now 22 months old -  And I do see some major improvements while showing him. Certain judges help too. The judge I showed to on Saturday was AWESOME. It's great when you come across judges who genuinely LIKE the dogs they are judging and aren't doing an assembly line thingy while doing the exams. He was talking to Bertie and praising him for standing still on the exam and so on. 

**** I feel your pain on the horse show tack! At least the western stuff is fun. I showed saddleseat so the show outfit could be fashionably hideous actually and still cost a bit.


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## Alaska7133

Cubbysan, 
Isn't it fun when you see the juniors do well? On Friday nights here we have show and go. I love running my dog with the juniors if they have space. I think I learn way more from the kids, plus they are more pleasant and not so uptight as the adults. I think the adults are unpleasant because they are uptight and not because they are jerks. Our show and go is taught be a local pro. She shows goldens and shelties amoungst other breeds. She has helped me a lot. 

Showing is a skill like any other. It takes a long time to learn. A show person I know said she lost for the first 2 years of showing. Then she got the hang of things and started winning. Plus the dog has to figure out a bit of what is going on also. 

One show in March I and one other woman were the only non-pros in the open bitches ring that day. When we finished, we hugged each other and said good job, we beat a pro! Sometimes the owner-handlers feel like the world is against us.


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## hotel4dogs

EXACTLY!! 
The judges can only judge what they see in the ring that day. They can't judge what the dog "ought to" move like if someone else were showing it. 
I can NOT show my dog to his best advantage. I have to pay someone else to do it. If I were young, thin, and athletic, then I would probably feel differently about it.




Eowyn said:


> But it's the person on the end of the leashes job to make the dog look his best, and that is where the pros shine. I was at a show one weekend and was shocked when the judge approached one of the older owner handlers (who once was a pro) after the show and said he liked her dog better and that he (dog) really was a lot nicer than the dog who went BOB. But he (judge) felt like he had to give it to the other dog since she (handler) couldn't run fast enough to get him (dog) to move as well as he could and the other dog who took BOB had a handler who could move him fast enough.


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## Alaska7133

Barb,
You did get some points on Tito, so you aren't that bad! Maybe you sell yourself short. Showing is the hardest sport of all I think. That's why young people do so well. We had a couple of kids go to Eukanuba and Westminster from up here. One shows afghans and the other newfies. Neither breed is easy to show. I love seeing those 2 kids in the ring. 

So back to bringing numbers up. How do we do that? I've heard it's a nationwide problem. I have a friend that showed her goldens in Puerto Rico. I looked at the book and none of the goldens were from Puerto Rico.


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## Kmullen

But, hiring a handler does not mean your dog is crap or that you need a handler to finish your dog. I have 2 beautiful dogs (I am biased) that finished with handlers. I just honestly do not have the time bc of work to show them enough to finish them, so I can concentrate on other things. I train and start then off, but I don't mind having a pro finish them. It doesn't mean diddly squat to me about quality (pro vs owner handler). It just all depends.


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## Kmullen

I think to get numbers up, I think we need to get younger people interested and involved.


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## Alaska7133

I'm sorry I didn't mean to insinuate that hiring a handler meant your dog was crap. I was intending to suggest people should have more confidence in their abilities of showing their dogs. The more we have pros handle our dogs for us, the bigger the problem with pros taking over showing will grow. I hate to see a time when no dogs are shown by anyone but a pro. It's sort of a circular argument. When you look at the numbers, 80% of dogs are shown by owners, 80% of wins are to pros. I wish we all just said the heck with it, I'm showing my own dog. I think we need to be less intimidated by the pros and get out there. If we don't, I wonder where the world of dog showing will go.


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## Rainheart

As a member of the so called 'younger generation' who is attempting/will be getting a start in conformation, I do find it a bit overwhelming with all the talk/drama about the conformation ring. That, and finding a great breeder who is also willing to be a mentor (being close by) is where I might run into some problems. I would think (or at least hope) that in a few years down the line once I'm done with vet school, a great breeder will entrust my first show dog to me. I am looking into owner handling, myself, but have zero experience in that area (or any dog showing area) up until the past few years until I got Beamer. I really wish I had the opportunity when I was younger to do Juniors, but it just wasn't a world I grew up in. Just some thoughts coming from someone on the outside...


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## Alaska7133

Rainheart,
Right now you have a great dog to practice with. You could start now by learning how to groom. I practice on my non-show dogs before I try something on my show dog. You'll have lots of time to get used to grooming. You can do all your handling classes with Beamer. Nothing says it has to be a dog you are showing. I have taken non-show dogs to handling classes just to do something different. Get into the mode now so you are ready for a show dog. Go to shows to see how they are run. Volunteer to ring steward and get to know the process. Lots of things to learn and plenty of time to learn it. You'll get there it just takes time. Time is on your side. Don't wait until you're 50 like I did.


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## Ljilly28

I think culture itself has evolved away from "one winner" to "everyone gets a trophy", but the AKC still has a varsity mentality (which I love) . There is a similar discussion about the greying of obedience. I think part of it comes down to people feeling AKC is too hard, and drifting to softer, more user-friendly venues like CPDT obedience, Cynosport Rally, UKC conformation, CPE, Wag It Games, noseworks rather than tracking etc. I see both sides. I like that our dog training clients have fun experiences with their dogs available that dont stress them out and in which they can succeed easily- better than doing nothing with the dog! On the other hand, I respect the tradition and excellence of AKC, and its role in dog culture, and try to focus my personal dogs there.


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## Ljilly28

Some of the iconic professional dog handlers are dyed- in- the -wool dog people with so much value to add to a novice trying to learn. These are dedicated, devoted people who make their livings working with dogs, and I dont think they deserve so much scorn. Many are second or third generation dog people who also grew up with breeder parents; many have been showing since juniors. 

We have 6 eager junior handlers at our training center- the future of the sport. One truly wants to become a pro handler. I would hate for her to read some of the meanspiritedness directed to handlers. 

The best handlers are honest, honorable, and have so much to teach even if, in the big picture, you will show your own dogs most of the time. Assisting your handler for a series of four day shows once you develop a relationship of mutual trust and resect can be an incredible way to learn details about breeds and showing. 

Many dedicated handlers will become the judges of the future, and keep the sport going in many ways. It is not an easy life to be a professional dog handler- they are on the road constantly, they wear out their backs and knees- many do it because they love dogs.

Professional handlers are also wonderful mentors and teachers.


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## Rainheart

Alaska7133 said:


> Rainheart,
> Right now you have a great dog to practice with. You could start now by learning how to groom. I practice on my non-show dogs before I try something on my show dog. You'll have lots of time to get used to grooming. You can do all your handling classes with Beamer. Nothing says it has to be a dog you are showing. I have taken non-show dogs to handling classes just to do something different. Get into the mode now so you are ready for a show dog. Go to shows to see how they are run. Volunteer to ring steward and get to know the process. Lots of things to learn and plenty of time to learn it. You'll get there it just takes time. Time is on your side. Don't wait until you're 50 like I did.


I am definitely doing some of those things already... grooming Beamer is tough trying to teach myself. Ears never look right. I need someone to physically show me and that is where I'm running into some problems. I've volunteered a few times (only in conformation once, though) to steward and it was fun. I would like to again if I could. Handling classes is a great idea, and I have them close by. Right now they interfere with Agility, but with time, maybe they won't. I will see if he is interested in doing that, but I appreciate all the advice. I just find it hard to really get a foot into conformation when you are a complete outsider, but have such a passion for the breed.


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## hotel4dogs

Most of the time it means your showing skills are crap, not your dog  .

Stacy, I did put a couple of points on him, but there's no way I could go out and get the big majors, in this area at that time we needed 23 dogs for a 3 point major.




kfayard said:


> But, hiring a handler does not mean your dog is crap or that you need a handler to finish your dog. I have 2 beautiful dogs (I am biased) that finished with handlers. I just honestly do not have the time bc of work to show them enough to finish them, so I can concentrate on other things. I train and start then off, but I don't mind having a pro finish them. It doesn't mean diddly squat to me about quality (pro vs owner handler). It just all depends.


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## Kmullen

It all boils down to what you want to do and what you are comfortable With. I don't think anybody should judge a dog or an owner based on their decision how they want to finish a dog. 

I Bred my girl both times to dogs that were owner handled to their CH. I bred to them bc I liked the dog and thought they might give her something she needs.

I like handling my dog and I really hope to finish a dog or two in the future, but it just depends. ?


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## Alaska7133

I really did not mean to be mean spirited about handlers. I was only pointing out that many owner-handlers feel as I do, it really shouldn't be a surprise. Also the way AKC is approving judges right now is difficult for breeders, but very easy for pro handlers. It shouldn't be that way. If we see numbers continue to drop, AKC should look within at the system, obviously it is failing. Showing a dog should be fun, instead it had become quite political. 

Jill, you are right everyone gets a ribbon, but only 2 get points from the classes, so it's still the only the that counts. I was ring steward at our obedience/rally competition at the end of June. There were only 2-3 people younger than me competing. Same with conformation. What's going to happen when younger people don't join or participate? 

Barb,
7 dogs and 9 bitches for a 5 point major in Alaska. And quite often our shows are only 2 points. Pretty small potatoes. We have really nice dogs up here, just not a lot of them. Being so small though, the politics is really in your face. If the word is out that someone from the states is coming up with a national champ, people will pull their dogs, they feel they are wasting their time and they don't want to see the outside dog getting an easy major. Politics. 

There is a forum member on GRF that breeds a fair amount of dogs, shows all over the US, shows a lot in Alaska, and both shows herself and hires pros because she has so many dogs. I'll send her a PM and hope she chimes in. It would be nice to hear from someone who does both.


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## Megora

AKC conformation has a TON more young people than obedience. That is primarily thanks to Juniors, yeah... but you at least have that visual for young kids walking through with their families. Meaning, they see people their age out there with the dogs. 

Problem with your average owner handlers - is yeah, they aren't going to be able to do most Friday shows and traveling every weekend is kinda out of the question. 

Me personally - I have a job that requires me to stay put. I have an accommodating boss who has let me travel a little this year to get out to further away shows (2+ hours), but I wouldn't want to take advantage of him. 

I've talked to people who have young kids and families and can't be taking "personal" time out to show dogs every weekend when the kids have stuff going on. So even your SAHM's are not exactly made up of free time (as much as us worker bees like to think : ). 

The rest is a culture issue with people not spending the required amount of time and money on training and working with the dogs. Taking handling classes, there were a couple people that I saw who were all bright-eyed and excited about doing conformation with their puppies.... but after a couple weeks of being unable to control their dogs in the class, they quit. 

Um.... I have a friend who showed and competed with her goldens back in the 70's and 80's, and she told me that people have a better chance NOW than ever to get into the game and get somewhere. This means that there's more people friendly to newcomers now.... plus, your dog has a better chance of being seen in the smaller classes. 

The thing I was thinking about last night and still am is that limited registration probably had a big hand in cutting the numbers of dogs competing in the ring. Wouldn't have it the other way (I'm all for limited registration), but that's gotta be a big part of it. 

AKC Obedience is greying... or to be exact, the number of younger people (like me and younger) getting into the sport is not BIG enough to balance the number of people dying or retiring from the sport. I think there's a myriad of reasons why.... and not related to conformation. AKC Obedience is all owner handled and owner friendly. Me personally, I think it comes down to the same culture thing and stuff like that.


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## hotel4dogs

Stacey, when I was showing Tito, 7 dogs was 1 point.


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## Alaska7133

I agree on the limited registration having an effect on who can show. I have a friend I do field work with. She has a wonderful dog that I think could do well in the show ring. She has limited registration though and the breeder died a couple of months after she got her pup. She is interested in showing, but it's an opportunity that won't happen for this boy. The limited registration has also kept the show dogs going to homes that already show which shortened up the group of new people getting in. I have heard over and over again from people that they can't get a show quality pup, that breeders won't sell to them for a variety of reasons. It does hurt how many dogs you see at a show. In the past the buyer made the decision whether to show a dog. Now the breeder gets to make that decision. Not sure how that is going to work out long term.


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## Alaska7133

Barb,
Sorry I posted at the same time as you! 7 dogs is one point. Wow. But it's so small here and we have so few shows, that we are happy when we have 4 dogs show and 6 bitches. It's tough. But 10 years ago we had twice as many dogs/bitches at a show. It's just fallen off so hard here. We're trying to figure out how to keep going with such small numbers. When it's that tiny, you can see how we are just barely hanging on. Our costs are very high too. Goldens, labs, cavaliers, rotties, shelties, all have the biggest numbers. All just barely make majors at some shows. Honestly if we didn't have people fly their dogs up from the states, we wouldn't have many major shows. I'm hoping the breeder I PM'd will chime in.


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## Kmullen

I wasn't trying to Make it sound like you were being harsh on handlers, I was just make a general comment. It was not directed at any one individual.

But, I wish judges would write why they put a dog or bitch up. (Not realistic, but would be nice wouldn't it).

Handlers really do know how to Make the dog shine. Most have been doing this since they were in their teens. So, it will be that much harder for owner handlers to try and beat that. You only have maybe 2 minutes for the judge to look at your dog, it needs to be great. If anyone decides to owner handle, the only thing I can suggest is video yourself to see how you do compared to the pros. Improve, improve, improve. 

If you know a judge is political, just don't enter.


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## Alaska7133

I just calculated up what my girl's sister cost her owner in pro handler fees, grooming and entry fees to finish her Ch. 
She was in 17 shows at $65/show (totally of 6 clusters). 
$80/cluster for grooming. 
Then $15/point. The handler doesn't travel with the dog, you bring to the show and hand off ring side. For grooming you bring to handler's shop for grooming day before show. Touch up at the show is free.
Cost $1810 to finish her using a pro. Most shows she was in were within a 1 hour drive from owner's home. 2 clusters were out of town that required overnight stays, the rest did not.
Cost of entering the shows were an additional $510. But you would pay that whether you showed yourself or use a pro.
Total cost: $2320
Jennie the owner, did not buy any grooming supplies or equipment other than a brush. So after finishing her girl, she had no other investments that were purchased for the Ch. I think Jennie got off pretty light. Here's her girl's pedigree: Pedigree: CH Wiseman Rhythm of the Sea RN


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## Eowyn

Alaska7133 said:


> Total cost: $2320


Choke, gasp, cry! Not fair!


ETA: I am packing my bags and moving to Alaska. I can deal with the cold, I will be there tomorrow!


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## Kmullen

Agree!! Wow! That is cheap! My boy finished for about $3300 handling fees etc. that did not include entry fees.


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## flatcoated

I won't pretend to know what it's like to show a Golden -- that's a really tough pool to jump into. Being able to learn to owner-handle with some positive feedback (in the form of points) is one of the luxuries afforded by a smaller breed, but about 50 percent in my breed are still pro-handled and a good number more are shown by long-time breeders with years of experience under their belts.

I don't question that those years of experience really pay off in terms of maximizing presentation and helping to ensure that the dogs are on. And that's where things get sticky. It is often so hard to reconcile the combination of factors that come into play, from the quality of the individual dog to the expense of showing to time required to really get good at handling to pursuit of goals in other areas. I have no interest in putting a handler on my dog precisely because it is something that I one day want to be good at. There will be many dogs after him, and there are no shortcuts to becoming the person in the ring who is really able to make his or her dog's intrinsic qualities shine. At the same time, shows and points are money, and I really want to focus on goals that lie beyond the conformation ring, so losing is hard. Every show will make me better and help obviate my own need for handlers in the long run, but every show is also time and money that could be directed elsewhere. Trying to simultaneously enjoy the experience and take the long view is the only way I can wrap my head around this conflict. Whether or not the politics are real, focusing on them is not going to improve the experience for me, and this is actually one of the places where I think dog shows are suffering. Lots of amateur-owner-handlers drop out because of the perception that it is too hard to win without a handler, thereby leaving an even higher concentration of handlers in the rings, which in turn feeds the perception that deterred people to begin with. Focusing on politics makes it really hard to enjoy showing, so for my own sake more than anyone else's, I am trying hard not to do it. And I think that has its own ripple effect. If I don't enjoy showing, my dog probably won't either, and if he doesn't enjoy it, we definitely aren't going to do well.

That's easier for me to say sitting on my couch typing than it is for me to say after I come out of the ring, however, and I'm sure it's also much easier for me to say as someone coming from a breed where novice handlers frequently win in spite of themselves. But I also think that trying to take this perspective is the only thing that's likely to sustain me in conformation, because doing it solely for wins would be an exercise in continual frustration.


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## Alaska7133

Cali was out of the gate great though. Their father finished in 16 shows. So you can understand why my girl's breeder tells me to finish her with a pro since I have no points on Lucy so far. Their mom's sister was BOS at Westminster this year. So a very nice breeding.

Yes come up and show! We have 7 clusters/year. That's it. 5 are combined with obedience/rally. 5 clusters are in Anchorage area, 1 in Fairbanks and 1 in Kenai. Combine it with some hunt tests and agility trials and you can have a great time up here! All the shows are small. People are very nice. Weather can be very challenging is the only problem.


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## Megora

Flatcoated - I'm over here clapping my hands. Very well said.  

I have a fairly similar outlook on WHY I do this. If I were only planning on getting a one time CH title on a once in a lifetime - then it would probably be easier to be taking cards at shows. But I've put a lot of time and energy into learning what I have now and I want to get good at it. Something that professional handlers that I've talked to (ie the friendly ones) have said is that everyone starts somewhere and the only way to learn is to do.


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## nolefan

I have a great love for horses and dogs and always have. I would have loved to become involved with both as a child but my parents weren't part of that world so never made the effort to figure out how to help me get involved. And probably the biggest driver of that was money. If we would have had 4H in our community it might have worked out for me, but it didn't. I was able to learn to ride as a teenager and continue to ride as an adult when I had some money but was limited by my choice to be a stay at home mom. Now I have more time and money but my kids are still an investment that has to take priority. 

Ellie is slow to mature, but if her breeder eventually feels that conformation would be a reasonable goal, I would consider trying it. (I truly do not mean to be offensive to anyone who loves conformation showing, so please know I do not mean this unkindly.) The number one reason though that I'm not interested is because I am so turned off by the 'fluffing and puffing' and general air of Goldens being shown as something other than what they should be: a wash and go sporting dog. (If I wanted to spend a lot of time and money grooming a smart dog, I'd own poodles.) This is not necessarily the big reason, I'm sure, that numbers are down, but the idea that I have to buy a $500 blow dryer so I can show my sporting dog seems ridiculous to me. I am probably in the minority but I think it is dead wrong that people are doing all kinds of artificial things to make Golden Retrievers ring ready when they the breed standard says they're primarily a hunting dog and should be shown in hard working condition. If their coats are not supposed to be curly but are allowed to have some wave to them and we're showing to determine the best breeding stock, then natural coat should be shown, not artificially manipulated to be something it's not. And I absolutely get that it is smart to groom a dog to show him to advantage and put his best foot forward, no need to highlight weaknesses etc., but I think it's gone WAY too far. That is one of the biggest reasons that conformation showing is a turn off to me. 

For the rest of America, I bet it's a combination of things. I would love to know if horseshow numbers are down also. The less rural we become, the fewer opportunities kids have to be exposed to animals and find out if a love for animals could become a genuine interest or talent. If you're an animal lover as a kid and your parents are not, chances are your opportunities to get involved are extremely limited unless your parents have money. It used to be you'd hear from people how they road their bike up to the local barn and begged to do chores in return for lessons or just for a chance to be in the atmosphere. As farm land becomes more scarce and barns have to move farther out, I wonder how many kids can do things like that. I know that I wouldn't let my kids ride a bike outside of my neighborhood (and we live in a very safe area just a lot of traffic) and our nearest barn is only a couple miles away. I bet not nearly as many kids now have grandparents or relatives to go visit during the summer who have property with livestock to expose them to. I think a pretty high percentage of dog people are also horse people or they used to be when they were younger. It sort of transfers over.

But I bet a big part of it is time and money. Kid have so many opportunities today to get very involved with team sports that really become a way of life; travel soccer, travel baseball, year round swim team, now days if you really enjoy dance, you don't just take lessons a couple days a week, you are on a competition dance or cheer team and your parents spend all their free time and money on that. It goes on and on. As kids get older, they are aware of the "popularity" factor and it's a lot of fun socially to be on a winning soccer team, you have to march to your own drummer if you're interested in dogs. Even horse sports, I think feel more 'solitary' than a team sport unless you are lucky enough to live in a community that supports it and that falls back to opportunity I think.

I imagine all of this has something to do with kids AND adults not being involved. There may be plenty of people who might be more involved with a dog sport but because they are shuttling their kids around to every lesson under the sun, their own interests take a back seat. I don't think it was this way 25 years ago. I have 3 kids and finding the time and the money to spend on my own activities after spending time and money on theirs is not easy. My husband loves to play golf, another pastime that isn't cheap. If we constantly juggle free time between all 5 of our family members interests, it's hard to find family time to relax. It's a constant balancing act and some people are better at it than others. I think the more our society focuses on our children the less we focus on ourselves and that may not always be the healthiest thing for the kids.







cubbysan said:


> I was talking to some old time judges / breeders, and they told me that it is a shame that the grooming for golden retrievers at shows has gone so overboard. They said years ago, their was not all this primping and fluffing, and a lot more time was spent socializing and getting to know your fellow everybody.


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## Alaska7133

Kristy,
I hear what you are saying about primping and fluffing. Every golden is a bit different on grooming. Some have super heavy coats that require a huge amount of work. One of my non-show goldens is like that. None of my others have been. My show girl has a short coat with little feathering. She's a wash and wear girl. I wash her the night before a show then blow her out. I trim feet, tail length, square off her feathers, and tidy her ears. She's extremely easy to work with. My grooming equipment has mostly come to me second hand. I got a great blower for $50. A grooming table and arm for $100. Scissors and thinners I did buy new. But you can do a lot with used stuff.

As for kids in 20 different directions, that is so true anymore. My step daughter is 30 now, but when she was a kid, it was volleyball, track, flute, trumpet, and boys. I don't know how parents do it with multiple kids, someone has to stay home to keep track of it all.

I also have a husband with expensive hobbies. Mine is into racing mountain/snow bikes. Every now and then when I think I'm spending a lot on dogs, I review his credit card statement and smile. Bikes are way more money than dogs!

When I got my first golden I was 35. I took some obedience classes at a local obedience club. Not one member or instructor talked to me about being a member or being involved in any kind of dog sports. Had someone back then, I might have been interested. I wish more people in dog sports would reach out to those that aren't. I hear again and again people in dog sports talking about people that aren't and calling them PET PEOPLE. I find that such a slap in the face. Once we quit having an us and them approach in dog sports I think it would really help dog sports in general. Right now dog ownership in the US is at an all time high. If anything dog sports should be over run with people entering their dogs in events. Sadly it's not.


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## Megora

The above shows my munchkin when he's wet (so totally ungroomed) and all cleaned up for show (Eowyn is on my Good Fairy list for the wonderful pictures she took!). So you can see he has a straight coat and there's nothing really "created" by grooming that isn't already there. 

My dryer cost me about $250 and the main reason to use that vs letting a dog air dry is you do not get weird flips based on where the dog sat down or slept on his back while he air-dried. 










^ This is Bertie after a swim and drying on his own. You see those flips on his shoulders and ears? He had the same thing on his butt. Those kinds of things get straightened out with the dryer. It's not about drastically building bone where there isn't any. Or not always.


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## nolefan

I love following your adventures Kate and Stacey, and hope you both keep hanging in there with what you're doing. I appreciate the pointers on the used equipment. I do have some equipment, table, excellent scissors etc. (thanks to Anney-k9-design negotiating a deal for me  ) so I do try to keep Ellie neat and tidy. I will keep working on obedience and field work and who knows, maybe Ellie will show some day, in the mean time I will be pulling for you all and admiring your beautiful dogs in photos.


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## Goldens&Friesians

I agree with Hotel4dogs about the cost. Its kind of ridiculous! I'd love to be able to show and finish my own dog without spending so much that it makes it not worth it. I want to buy a show puppy and get into conformation, but this is one of that main things causing me to sit on the fence. I also think Megora has a good point about people not being welcoming or friendly to newbies. Even in obedience which I have titled dogs in, I still haven't gotten to know anybody! Partly I suppose it could be my rather shy and reserved personality though. But that just makes jumping into conformation all the more intimidating! Plus, as far as I know, there are absolutely NO handling classes within a reasonable driving distance of where I live. Also no breeders close enough to teach me. How is a person who wants to learn to handle their own dog supposed to get a start without an instructor? I did learn some handling skills in 4-H showmanship, but that was 10 yrs ago and I'm sure there are things I've forgotten or things that have changed. I think there are more people than we realize who would love to show conformation, but just can't afford it or don't have instructors, etc.


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## DanaRuns

Nevermind!


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## Megora

I drive about an hour to get to the breeder who is helping me learn how to show groom. I will also be driving an hour and a half to the club where she runs a drop in handling class maybe a couple times this summer - at least while we still have late daylight hours. I know I'm running out of time, LOL. I've been busy. I keep promising I'll get out to see her. She's promised to help me in a couple areas where I'm still a little rough.  

When I decided to get into conformation with Bertie (he was a year old by then) - his breeder pointed me in the right direction as far as classes to take. The plus was she put her own dog in these classes just so she could be there to offer tips and keep an eye on me I think. <- So if you decide to get into conformation, you may be talking to the breeder to see where to take handling classes, etc. 

Other thing really - if you have other dogs right now, you could take handling classes right now. Handling classes are _cheap_. The ones I started out with were only about $5 a week. The drops ins I do now are only $10 - and I don't do them every week. Probably the nicest thing too is similar to obedience clubs where you have the same dedicated people showing up with their dogs week after week, you do get to know a lot of other owner handlers.... some who are pretty good at what they do. There's a lady who shows boxers around here and took her dogs to Westminster last year - she's my idol LOL. I love how she handles her dogs and I'd love to learn how to be that kind of handler. Her dogs are WIRED. But when she has them out in the ring or on the floor at class, they are perfect motion. And at least in our area - it was kinda cool seeing judges (actual ring judges in both obedience and conformation) coming in to help teach the handling class or bringing their own dogs.


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## Alaska7133

Megora turned me on to some Facebook groups that can help you get connected in the show world. Look for: Learning to show dogs. Ring thoughts. Just 2 to get you started. But there is a really huge show world on Facebook of all places. Whether you show yourself or hire a handler, it's all good information. Learning to show dogs has some information for finding a mentor. So cruise those groups for information. Thanks Megora for sending me that way, I've learned a lot!


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## cubbysan

I cannot say enough about joining your local golden retriever club. I always wanted to join when I was on the East Coast, but just felt because I was not "born into showing or dogs", I was not good enough.

I have a golden retriever magnet on the back of my car that I bought at the Rhode Island National about 6 years ago. Two years ago, after I moved to Kansas City, I was backing out of my parking space at church when this couple stopped me. They had been "stalking me" for a few weeks because of my golden retriever magnet. They asked me if I had goldens - I said yes - then they asked me why I was not part of the Kansas City Golden Retriever Club. I said because I only have pets and nobody has ever asked me. He was the President of the club! Funny thing was just a few days earlier I was praying that I meet some people in my new town that had the same interests as me.

Well, I have met the nicest people in all areas of goldens - conformation, breeding, obedience, tracking, agility, therapy, rescue, field, and pets. We even have people that belong to the club that do not have goldens, but like to do our obedience events with other breeds. Everybody is very encouraging. I have helped plan two specialties, and also did the physical work of setting it up. Unfortunately, I am 49 and probably one of the youngest active members. You should see me and some of the members who are 20 plus years older than me trying to put away the gates and the heavy mats.

Then I went to a grooming class that my now breeder had given. I also had her groom my Brady at another time. In January, she remembered that I wanted to one day show, so she called me because she had a show potential puppy available to co-own. This to me was my stepping stone. She is only 10 minutes from me, gives show handling, obedience and agility classes at her place. She has done many one on ones with me. The woman who co-owns Sailor's mother with her, is also teaching me grooming, and answers all my questions. My poor Brady has been my guinea pig.

Right now I am really enjoying hanging out with people who are like me. My family and my friends just do not understand.

For the specialty, I got to have dinner with two of the judges and got to be their chauffeur - picking one up from the airport and picking both of them up from the motel. I learned so much from them. One of them, I had no idea who he was until afterwards when I googled his name and found out how big he was! I always had drooled over his dogs.

Join the club and I hope more clubs cater to the pet people. Open the doors for them to see how they can enhance their lives with their dogs.

Now two years later, I am the one that appears to be the stalker, stopping people in the street that have goldens asking them to join the club and I also throw in a pitch for GRF too.


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## Ljilly28

I think more civility and comradery would definitely help. People treat our junior handlers with such amazing kindness compared to how they sometimes spat with one another. For example, when Keller gets to a show, she is greeted by name by many people of different breeds. People ask her to show dogs as varied as Skye Terriers and Papillons as well as goldens. She gets thank you notes- handwritten sometimes( junior handlers cannot be paid), and when she put 2 points of a shnuazer(sp), the owner sent her the win photo all framed with the ribbons under the glass too. Keller was thrilled. If adults treated each other in as friendly a way as everyone does the youngsters, the shows would be easier for newcomers.

"We Eat Our Own" ShowSight - The Dog Show Magazine.I got a kick out of this article, as it is so Best In Show The Movie, and there is a tiny grain of truth to it for each of the venues, and even at times on the forum. 

You need to be centered and develop a thick skin, and a good group of real life friends and allies- a dog "family" or dog "tribe" to stay happy over time.

I think for conformation numbers to be up once again, there needs to be simplicity in terms of keeping it on the court as a sporting event and not so much gossiping and complaining. I liked the article Jon Chase wrote about sportsmanship in the GR News. 

One of my best days in dogs was when there was a huge storm hitting West Springfield, but everyone stayed to cheer for Lush in the group- I felt so supported. I try to stay for the group no matter what golden wins. Sometimes it is hard if it is hot and we need to get our dogs home, but sometimes goldens are late in the day and it is easy to stay that extra hour.


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## DanaRuns

As someone who is new to dog showing, I am really put off by all the vitriol and back-biting between people. It's really dispiriting. There is a tremendous amount of enmity between people who have no reason for it, but go out of their way to create it. It's ridiculous. I get so I want to put on sun glasses and not speak to anyone, and just watch the dogs. And as a new person I am either being recruited into this or that faction, or shunned. I'm sick of it, frankly.

The thing is, I like all the dogs. It's rare I see a dog that doesn't belong in the ring. It's rare I see one undeserving of a championship. They all have special things about them, and every one is a product of thoughtful and loving breeding. So why do ringside idiots have to hate on the dogs and each other? Why all the unnecessary drama and intrigue? I don't get it. It's very off-putting. Bunch of entitled, privileged, petty snobs who have long ago forgotten what's wonderful about the fancy.

I swear, I'm about ready to bail on the show world, and I've only had 3 show dogs. Life is too short for all the bovine excrement. I love the dogs, but hate the people.


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## Alaska7133

Dana, you are so right! How does one judge pick one dog over another?

Cubbysan, I also belong to my local club. We have a large contingent of people who only do agility, some who are really focused on obedience, and plenty of people that don't do conformation. I got in because of my girl's breeder. Our club does require attending 2 events and having a member sign off for you. Which can make it tougher for new people to attend. 

Megora, for some reason my spell checker made your name Metros. How funny. But Megora is the one who sent me to the Facebook groups.


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## Ljilly28

DanaRuns said:


> The thing is, I like all the dogs. It's rare I see a dog that doesn't belong in the ring. It's rare I see one undeserving of a championship. .


I agree with this. In my old English teaching life, it used to make me wince when parents implied so and so's kid at Harvard wasnt as smart as their kid at Harvard etc, and invested a ton of energy in that kind of snarky comparing & competing. Come on now people, they are ALL smart. 

Dog shows are under attack enough from the outside, so it is too bad that the manufactured enmity described by DanaRuns further tears people apart.

I keep hearing the kind of cliche that the average lifespan of a dog show competitor is 5 years, but I do not know if that is true. 

There are so many, many goldens bringing splendid attributes into the ring, and no perfect ones, so. . .. When someone sits ringside at BOB, and says this or that dog doesnt deserve its CH, then they are also implying they know more than the 10 jor 50 judges that chose the dog for points and/or GCH points, more than the person who bred the dog, etc. That is why it doesnt actually sway, interest or engage me. I regard it more like either trash talk before a big game or like a way to burn off social anxiety on the part of the complainer. It is kind of just the white noise of dog shows.


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## DanaRuns

People who might like to show a dog are discouraged from doing so by:

1. The difficulty of purchasing a show quality puppy, unless you have already shown dogs to championship.

2. The limited registrations and spay/neuter contracts that automatically remove the possibility of deciding to show a puppy.

3. The cost of showing.

Frankly, it's almost impossible to buy a show puppy if you're not already proven in showing dogs. It's hard enough to get a pet puppy from show quality breeders, there's almost no chance of getting a show dog. You really have to know someone or get very lucky. And you have to go into it intent on showing. It is no longer possible to get a puppy and then decide later that you'd like to show it, without getting the breeder to modify the contract and registration, and the whole process dissuades people who otherwise might be interested in showing.

In the same period of time that dog show participation has plummeted, participation in marathon running has exploded. In that sport -- where, btw, amateurs compete with the best in the world -- they have purposefully emphasized a populism that welcomes and encourages participation by anyone with the motivation to try to run 26.2 miles without stopping. When the Boston Marathon was first run, there were 15 runners. This year, more than 32,000 people crossed the finish line, and over a million people were there spectating and cheering runners on.

So, why can something so difficult and arcane as running a marathon have exploded in popularity at the same time that participation in dog shows has dropped like a rock?


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## Alaska7133

Dana,
Dog ownership numbers are way up! We shouldn't be having this issue at all. But we are. I agree with you on all your counts. I do have show friends that would disagree with you. You could add: our quick to spay/neuter at a young age takes many show potential pups out of the equation before they have had a chance to be evaluated as a show prospect.

I have a show dog purely by chance, it wasn't intentional at all. I found a litter I wanted a pup from. Told the breeder what I wanted for a pup, just an all round fun pup to take rafting, fishing, and mountain biking. I got a pup that was pretty cute. I asked the breeder when the pup was 4 months old, could she be shown? The breeder said she was a show prospect but didn't have a show home to send her to. Anyway I decided to show her and away I went. It was just all luck of the draw and being in the right place at the right time. And her breeder was pretty happy that the pup ended up in a show home anyway. I wish everyone wanting a show puppy was as lucky as I. But I know things don't normally go this way. I do hear breeders complain that they sold a show prospect pup to someone promising to show, but the owner never followed through and the pup was never shown.


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## Ljilly28

We have a beautiful young elkhound as a client, and his breeder is an AKC judge who is so concerned about young people continuing the great work of breeding and showing dogs. I really like this talk about breeding dogs, bc it touches on the way the puzzle pieces of exhibitor, dog, breeder, judge all come together- everything from a mention of what goldens should be to the loss of great kennels of 100 or more dogs etc.

I think lots of people want to learn and think about dogs, but can be starved for the right kind of talking- getting that ringside stuff rather than meaty words. One thing that I like is a chance to sit and listen- to the dog version of a TED talk, as a way to keep energized and enthusiastic, and not drop out: 



 . Pat Trotter

Doug Johnson:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14RoJmBbsLE


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## Loisiana

To answer the question about how to fit in two shows a day, you have to have lots of rings. I've never seen a two trial obedience day with less than 3 rings running. My own club have 5 rings.


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## Alaska7133

We have normally 70 dogs a day in both obedience and rally, what are your numbers like? We run one ring for two long days. It is expensive to fly a judge up, house them, etc. Doubling the cost, but having the same overhead might work. Maybe we could split with another club. Since we are already renting the location. Coordinating with conformation schedules can be a bit challenging if you are in both, we had some complaints this year.


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## Megora

> 1. The difficulty of purchasing a show quality puppy, unless you have already shown dogs to championship.


 Purchasing one outright from specific breeders - probably yeah. 



> 2. The limited registrations and spay/neuter contracts that automatically remove the possibility of deciding to show a puppy.


 Keep in mind those limited registrations are there to keep people from turning around and breeding the dogs left and right. Basically protects the breed. 

There are breeders out there who truly are there to develop and mentor - and if they see you bringing your dogs to class and competing in obedience or agility or field and basically they see you keep your dogs in shape and show a strong interest in keeping them groomed properly. It's not that far of a leap going from performance sports to conformation. Maybe not always with the dog you have, but yeah - I've heard of breeders changing the registration from limited to full after the owner has proven they are in the game and/or the dog has turned out very well. 

And what I gather btw.... there's a good bunch of respected breeders out there who started out in obedience with their goldens. So they probably got into conformation that same way with somebody helping them switch gears. 



> 3. The cost of showing.


 Anything you enjoy doing will probably cost money. If you show your own dog, your costs will be more spread out. I don't have a spreadsheet up for what I've spent already, but every month or so, Bertie goes in for a $50 grooming. And I might be spending about $90-130 a month on shows so far. We went to $5 a week classes, so even before we jumped into our first show, I only spent about $100 or so on handling classes. And I think I've spent about $1000 or so on tack that I've picked up over the last year. Spread out, so it's not a huge deal.

I showed horses a while back - so all of this is inexpensive and easily managed with your budget. 

But even if I decided to get a pro to handle him.... from what I understand, it's $1000 upfront and $100 every show. Which probably is freaky deaky if you did not expect that pro to finish your dog quickly.


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## K9-Design

Megora said:


> But even if I decided to get a pro to handle him.... from what I understand, it's $1000 upfront and $100 every show. Which probably is freaky deaky if you did not expect that pro to finish your dog quickly.


One handler contract I read had a "bonus" built in ---- if they finished your dog in under thirty days, you were to pay an additional $1000


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## Claudia M

flatcoated said:


> I won't pretend to know what it's like to show a Golden -- that's a really tough pool to jump into. Being able to learn to owner-handle with some positive feedback (in the form of points) is one of the luxuries afforded by a smaller breed, *but about 50 percent in my breed are still pro-handled and a good number more are shown by long-time breeders with years of experience under their belts.*
> 
> I don't question that those years of experience really pay off in terms of maximizing presentation and helping to ensure that the dogs are on. And that's where things get sticky. It is often so hard to reconcile the combination of factors that come into play, from the quality of the individual dog to the expense of showing to time required to really get good at handling to pursuit of goals in other areas. I have no interest in putting a handler on my dog precisely because it is something that I one day want to be good at. There will be many dogs after him, and there are no shortcuts to becoming the person in the ring who is really able to make his or her dog's intrinsic qualities shine. At the same time, shows and points are money, and I really want to focus on goals that lie beyond the conformation ring, so losing is hard. Every show will make me better and help obviate my own need for handlers in the long run, but every show is also time and money that could be directed elsewhere. Trying to simultaneously enjoy the experience and take the long view is the only way I can wrap my head around this conflict. Whether or not the politics are real, focusing on them is not going to improve the experience for me, and this is actually one of the places where I think dog shows are suffering. Lots of amateur-owner-handlers drop out because of the perception that it is too hard to win without a handler, thereby leaving an even higher concentration of handlers in the rings, which in turn feeds the perception that deterred people to begin with. Focusing on politics makes it really hard to enjoy showing, so for my own sake more than anyone else's, I am trying hard not to do it. And I think that has its own ripple effect. If I don't enjoy showing, my dog probably won't either, and if he doesn't enjoy it, we definitely aren't going to do well.
> 
> That's easier for me to say sitting on my couch typing than it is for me to say after *I come out of the ring, however, and I'm sure it's also much easier for me to say as someone coming from a breed where novice handlers frequently win in spite of themselves.* But I also think that trying to take this perspective is the only thing that's likely to sustain me in conformation, because doing it solely for wins would be an exercise in continual frustration.



I am not sure if you are referring to the same breed in the two bolded statements. Someone told me that it is much easier to put CH on a flat coat. I found it to be exactly the opposite. Especially because of the first bolded statement. 

Another reason is the small numbers in the ring that do not bring any points. We were at a show and FCR owners and handlers connected for people to show up to make sure you have enough numbers for a major. Nope, one did not show up and broke the major.


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## Alaska7133

You can still get points without a major in your breed, if you go to Group. Never been there myself, but you can go that route, which lots of people do if they have a breed there isn't a lot of at a show. So if you do go to Group, you need a first place in Group to get the point(s). If a class dog wins Group 1, he/she can get the highest point total for any breed in his/her group on that day. So say there is a 5 point major in goldens that day. Your FCR takes Group 1, then you get 5 points! So it's still worth it to go. Then if our class dog wins Best In Show, he/she will get the highest point total for any breed in the show. So it's still a roll of the dice as showing always is, but it isn't hopeless in a breed with no major.


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## hotel4dogs

It must be area specific. I have 2 friends who breed/show flat coated retrievers, and both say you can finish ANY FCR if you show long enough.




Claudia M said:


> I am not sure if you are referring to the same breed in the two bolded statements. Someone told me that it is much easier to put CH on a flat coat. I found it to be exactly the opposite. Especially because of the first bolded statement.
> 
> Another reason is the small numbers in the ring that do not bring any points. We were at a show and FCR owners and handlers connected for people to show up to make sure you have enough numbers for a major. Nope, one did not show up and broke the major.


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## flatcoated

Another flat-coat! Nice to meet you.

I was referring to FCRs in both statements, drawing from my own experience. I think it depends a lot on the region and on the year in question. Looking back at entries and results from the last several years in my region, there have been several weak entry years for class dogs, and the point schedule shifted downwards just as the number of dogs competing began to rise again. So it's a very good year for potential majors. In past years, the reverse has sometimes been the case -- entries drop just as the number of dogs it takes for a major rises -- and that, of course, can make things really difficult and finishing potentially impossible. I guess one of the challenges of showing a less common breed is that even small fluctuations in entry numbers can have a serious impact, and there's always lag in the entry projections that the AKC uses to set the point schedule. In any event, I've had a pretty gentle introduction to the show world. While I think I'm a relatively competent handler for a rank novice, I know I'm often not doing my dog any favors, and we've still had some good days. Moreover, everyone we've encountered in the breed has been perfectly lovely, pro handlers included. I think if everyone had a similar experience, more people might stick around.


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## K9-Design

AKC structures the point schedule (which is adjusted each year) so each breed is projected to have the same percentage of shows with a high enough entry to be a major. So there are not more majors for goldens or more majors for flatcoats. They are, percentage wise, the same. 

However you can appreciate that if you show up and only have to beat 4 other dogs to earn a major, that is much better odds and therefore easier to do than if you have to beat 23 other dogs to earn the same number of points. 

When I showed Fisher it was 24 dogs for a THREE point major. Now it's 17 dogs for 3 pts in my region. (One weekend in Sarasota he was WD both days, beating 19 dogs one day and 21 dogs the next day. On Sunday the judge told me "Congratulations on your major." Uggg nope 21 dogs was still only 2 points at that point in time.)


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## flatcoated

K9-Design said:


> AKC structures the point schedule (which is adjusted each year) so each breed is projected to have the same percentage of shows with a high enough entry to be a major. So there are not more majors for goldens or more majors for flatcoats. They are, percentage wise, the same.


Yes, but the total number of majors within a breed and region sometimes fluctuates from year to year in spite of the AKC's best efforts to keep them stable. Even with annual schedule adjustments, they can't perfectly anticipate the number of dogs and owners that will show up in a given year. Last year (May-May), for example, the number of majors in my breed and region dropped precipitously as a result of show turnout that was unexpectedly low. Consequently, there were very few dogs that finished during that timespan. The regional point schedule was of course adjusted to reflect the low turnout just as a large influx of puppies and young dogs started entering the ring. So there are now a larger number of dogs showing up at shows where a smaller number is needed to constitute a major. Thus it seems that there will be large percentage of shows in the next year where majors are available, whereas last year there were almost none. This probably means that the system is working exactly as it should and that things balance out over a relatively short span of time. But unexpected circumstances do mean that the AKC will never be 100% successful in its effort to stabilize the annual number of majors in a given breed and region, and in a low turnout year, this is liable to be a source of frustration in any breed. That was all I meant to suggest.


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## Alaska7133

Flatcoated, you summed it up well.


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## Ljilly28

I do not know if this is true or a ballpark, but one of our breeders mentioned when you count the majors available etc, there is realistically room/capacity for about 200 goldens a year to finish total. I am curious if that is correct, but I am not a good statistics -cruncher.


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## hotel4dogs

I've heard the same thing, Jill.



Ljilly28 said:


> I do not know if this is true or a ballpark, but one of our breeders mentioned when you count the majors available etc, there is realistically room/capacity for about 200 goldens a year to finish total. I am curious if that is correct, but I am not a good statistics -cruncher.


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## Ljilly28

There are so many, many lovely goldens- that is a sobering number if true. Some nice goldens will not finish with a functional cap on the overall total.


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## cubbysan

I remember going to shows in the 90s and seeing all the entries for the goldens at the Boston shows, I swear there would be between 70 and 100, even for the GSD's they were extremely high. Always wondered how how most people ended finishing their dogs.


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## Megora

Ljilly28 said:


> There are so many, many lovely goldens- that is a sobering number if true. Some nice goldens will not finish with a functional cap on the overall total.


Tilt this another way.... how many breeders out there wait just enter a few shows the first couple years to get the dog's feet wet and then really get the dogs out when they are 2-3 years old? How about those who keep the dogs tucked away until 4-5 years old? I've seen a lot who do that. Sometimes it's dogs taking longer to grow up and mature in appearance. Sometimes it's people waiting around to get prelims or even finals before they spend serious money getting the dogs out. 

And you have some people who are semi-retired or putting personal life first (which they should). I can think of somebody who has not been showing regularly because Saturdays are days she spends with her daughter. 

So basically what this means is that while you have a lot of goldens who are born and raised to show in show homes or whatever.... they aren't all out showing at the same time.


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## Alaska7133

That's not very many!


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## Claudia M

flatcoated said:


> Another flat-coat! Nice to meet you.
> 
> I was referring to FCRs in both statements, drawing from my own experience. I think it depends a lot on the region and on the year in question. Looking back at entries and results from the last several years in my region, there have been several weak entry years for class dogs, and the point schedule shifted downwards just as the number of dogs competing began to rise again. So it's a very good year for potential majors. In past years, the reverse has sometimes been the case -- entries drop just as the number of dogs it takes for a major rises -- and that, of course, can make things really difficult and finishing potentially impossible. I guess one of the challenges of showing a less common breed is that even small fluctuations in entry numbers can have a serious impact, and there's always lag in the entry projections that the AKC uses to set the point schedule. In any event, I've had a pretty gentle introduction to the show world. While I think I'm a relatively competent handler for a rank novice, I know I'm often not doing my dog any favors, and we've still had some good days. *Moreover, everyone we've encountered in the breed has been perfectly lovely, pro handlers included.* I think if everyone had a similar experience, more people might stick around.


Very nice meeting you as well. and that statement is absolutely correct. I have met so many nice flat coat people, I cannot even count them. Including breeders who have been showing for a long time. 
I have only seen one pro out of line at one show who was stating who will win what before the show even started. :no:


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## Alaska7133

The FCR Windy Hill God of Fire was up here this last weekend for a 3 day cluster in Kenai, AK. He won: BIS, RBIS, and G1!! Pretty good work for a weekend in Alaska.


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## flatcoated

Alaska7133 said:


> The FCR Windy Hill God of Fire was up here this last weekend for a 3 day cluster in Kenai, AK. He won: BIS, RBIS, and G1!! Pretty good work for a weekend in Alaska.


Not bad at all! Very happy for his team. Kasey is a pretty magnificent dog with a personality to match -- his tail _never_ stops wagging -- and his owners and handler are great people. They're right at the top of the list of people who have gone out of their way to make me feel welcome, and their previous flat-coat (from the same breeder as mine, as all of their other dogs have been) was also a multi best in show winner and won the breed at Westminster at the age of 9. After the weekend he just had, I'm guessing that won't be Kasey's last trip up to Alaska.


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## Alaska7133

Ran my dogs with a FCR at a NAHRA hunt test last weekend. Very nice dog. Owner has several FCR's. Arctic Sun's Cool Change. The breedings have produced black and liver color. Never saw a liver color until last winter.


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## Claudia M

Alaska7133 said:


> Ran my dogs with a FCR at a NAHRA hunt test last weekend. Very nice dog. Owner has several FCR's. Arctic Sun's Cool Change. The breedings have produced black and liver color. Never saw a liver color until last winter.


hahahaha Stacey, I think you are falling in love with the FCRs! Darcy's breeder has a liver one. Absolutely gorgeous! I am still partial to the black.

I have yet to see in person a yellow FCR. There is a group on FB Yellow Flatcoated Retrievers Worldwide and have seen the pictures.


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## Sally's Mom

cubbysan said:


> I remember going to shows in the 90s and seeing all the entries for the goldens at the Boston shows, I swear there would be between 70 and 100, even for the GSD's they were extremely high. Always wondered how how most people ended finishing their dogs.


When my Samantha who was born in 2002 showed at the Boston shows, she would be in Open Bitch with 20 other Open bitches! 3 point majors I think were 25 or 26 bitches entered. I would have to look at old catalogues to be accurate.


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## Pomnaomi

*New to Golden*

I was going to wait to show my male Golden when he turns 2, but was enticed to show when he was 12 month old. Well...after paid almost $3,000 to a handler for 1 AKC point in two months, I wanted to quit dog shows all together. I am using a different handler this time.


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## Alaska7133

I feel for you. It's a hard battle sometimes. 

We had the #1 golden in the US up here this weekend. Sandpiper's Let Freedom Ring. He won BIS all 3 days. There were some very nice dogs here. The question I have is, did he win because he is well advertised and well campaigned and shown by top handlers, or did he win BIS because of his looks? He did win BOB and I thought that was correct. But you wonder sometimes how much is hype and how much is real. Especially since so many shows never have a golden as BIS. I do think it was unfortunate for so many local dogs to not win points because of this dog coming up.


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## DanaRuns

Freedom's handlers are also Gibbs' handlers, so I get to see Freedom all the time. I see him when he doesn't even win the breed (though he does win it most of the time, and only once has a judge even considered Gibbs when Freedom was in the ring). I see him when he gets a Group 3 or Group 4. So it's not as if judges are wowed by his handlers and automatically put him up. He shows every weekend, and including the three shows in Alaska he has won 7 BIS so far. I think he gets it on the merits, especially at the group and BIS level, where there are lots of top handlers. He's a magnificent boy. He deserves it.

As for the local dogs not getting the points because Freedom came up, imagine what it's like in Southern California. Imagine what it's like for Gibbs, because every show Gibbs is in, Freedom is in, too. Be glad he only came up once!


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## Max's Dad

So Gibbs' handlers handle more than one dog at a show? Only Goldens or do they also do other breeds?


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## DanaRuns

Max's Dad said:


> So Gibbs' handlers handle more than one dog at a show? Only Goldens or do they also do other breeds?


They handle 10 or more Goldens every show in SoCal, and they also handle other breeds. They have one of the top Beagles and one of the top Bloodhounds, and the top Afghan and the top Canaan Dog, too. The Schultzes have a pretty big operation. I don't know if this will show, but here's a pic of Bruce Schultz with the #1 Beagle, Zsa Zsa, during those Alaska shows. It's not all glamour!


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## Max's Dad

Wow! Did not realize what a big business dog shows are. If Freedom is winning so many Best in Shows, could he have a chance at Westminster, where no Golden has ever won BIS?


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## DanaRuns

IMHO no Golden will ever win Westminster.


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## Pomnaomi

DanaRuns said:


> IMHO no Golden will ever win Westminster.


There is a first time for everything! He can break the history, I hope.


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## Max's Dad

Well, we can always hope.


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## TheZ's

Max's Dad said:


> Wow! Did not realize what a big business dog shows are. If Freedom is winning so many Best in Shows, could he have a chance at Westminster, where no Golden has ever won BIS?


If you've never been to a big dog show you should check it out sometime . . . parking lots full of big RV's, specially fitted trucks owned by big handlers, generators running to power grooming equipment and air conditioning, xpens set up around the vehicles, dogs being primped, even saw a dog being spray painted behind an RV one time. You'll see dog breeds you never knew existed. The few times I've gone, I always think how much money must be involved in all of it.


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## Alaska7133

Our shows up here are a lot smaller than they are down in many states. For example we need 9 bitches for a 5 point major. Many places need that many for 1 pt. Hawaii, Alaska, and Puerto Rico take the least amount of dogs for 5 points. Here's the link to the AKC point schedule: American Kennel Club - Point Schedule
Every year AKC reassesses the amount of dogs in a show and determines where the points should be. As shows have gotten smaller over time, it takes less and less dogs for a 5 point show. For example in 2005 in Alaska we needed 13 bitches for a 5 point major. Big difference in a small population to go from 13 to 9 bitches. Consequently what we have happen is, one breeder has all the entries for the breed (not in goldens). Kind of hard to really have a true competition if you are only competing against yourself. But that does regularly happen here. We're trying really hard to keep having shows, but another club is threatening to close theirs down up here because of low attendance.

There are many people that think finishing a dog to a championship in Alaska is easier than many other states with more dogs required. After 15 shows and zero points for Lucy, I'm not sure if that's true! Being where we are, we have very few shows, 16 total with an extra golden specialty. Not many chances to win unless you fly to the states. There are many strategies to show and finish dogs to a championship.


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## DanaRuns

TheZ's said:


> If you've never been to a big dog show you should check it out sometime . . . parking lots full of big RV's, specially fitted trucks owned by big handlers, generators running to power grooming equipment and air conditioning, xpens set up around the vehicles, dogs being primped, even saw a dog being spray painted behind an RV one time. You'll see dog breeds you never knew existed. The few times I've gone, I always think how much money must be involved in all of it.


You caught the essence of it nicely. What I love about dog shows is that there is this whole prolonged energy to them that you never see ringside. It starts the day before, when dogs and handlers start arriving, and the grooming stations get set up and the dogs are being bathed. And then, slowly, there appears a forest of motorhomes, many with elaborate setups for the dogs. It's like a little city just pops into existence.

The morning of the show is a flurry of activity everywhere, with dogs being pampered and groomed to perfection, and fed, and walked, and handlers preparing for the ring. And you're right, there are gorgeous dogs everywhere, with breeds you never even knew existed. Then comes the national anthem, and the show begins! As the breeds get shown, the energy slows, as one breed after another finished showing. Group and BIS have tremendous energy, but it's small and localized. And when the show is over, the is more dog maintenance, feeding, walking, and putting the dogs away in preparation for tomorrow's show. 

Finally, when the light is disappearing, there are parties in the motorhome forest, groups going out to dinner, celebrations for the winners, and hope for tomorrow for the ones that didn't win. Then the whole thing happens again the next day. After the last show, there are good-byes all around, with some sadness, and the city that popped up a few days ago slowly dissolves and disappears completely, leaving only a thousand gallons of dog pee and smells for the local dogs to freak out over for a long time to come.

And then next weekend, somewhere else, the city pops into existence again, and it all happens another time.

I love dog shows.


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## cubbysan

I just heard on the radio today that less kids are going into baseball and golf, and more going into soccer ( and in my city Lacrosse ), because the first two games are too slow but the other two are faster paced.

I think society is just getting too impatient.

Interestingly, I went to my first horse show this weekend for 4H. There were over 500 entries. They say these shows the numbers are increasing every year. Again, another very expensive hobby, but people are figuring out how to do it.


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## Goldens&Friesians

Yes, I definitely agree with you Cubbysan! We have been made into a society that expects instantaneous results-nothing is fast enough!

I also show horses at a fun show put on by a local riding club twice a month. When I first started showing here about 5-6 years ago the show started at 6 p.m. and ended around 10:30 p.m. Now it starts at the same time, but doesn't end until 12-12:30 because the club has had such an increase in membership! I have to admit, I liked the shows getting over at 10:30 better! We drive a little over an hour to get there so 12:30 makes for a very late night! I am happy to see such an interest in horses though. Back when I was in 4-H and first started with horses there where lots of horses at our county 4-H fair and it was all about learning everything you could about horses. By the time I was in my last year of 4-H there were fewer horses and it was more about mommy and daddy buying you an expensive horse, paying for a trainer to do everything for you, and buying you $4,000 saddles, and doing whatever it takes to win. I always felt a little overlooked because I bought and trained my own horse, had a $150 saddle, and did everything on my own. Even though my horses would perform every bit as well as the professionally trained ones, we would be overlooked because we didn't have the expensive tack or the well-known trainer. I feel like 4-H shouldn't be like that. Anyway, sorry about the rant. Hopefully since you say 4-H numbers are increasing in your area that means its not so political anymore!


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## Alaska7133

Up here in Alaska we are seeing a huge surge in snow biking that is taking over the cross country skiing. So in the winter I see way more bikes on the trails than skis. I think there is an ebb and flow. I do think the anti dog owners - PETA, etc. are really having a negative effect on breeders, which is decreasing the overall amount of dogs available for ownership. I think we will see an even bigger drop of purebred dog ownership as time goes on. Texas now has a law that a breeder can only own 6 intact females. Many states, cities, counties are making it harder and harder to have an intact dog or bitch, which is a requirement for showing in AKC. I read somewhere that Pasadena, CA, is going to outlaw intact dogs altogether. I do think that since AKC has gone to limited registration that it has denied many people the ability to show a dog since full registration is required. So there are some factors by our own making that need to change for conformation numbers to come up.
1. We need to be more proactive to fight laws that remove the ability for an owner to have an intact dog/bitch. Too many places make it very hard for legitimate breeders to operate.
2. We need to review the whole limited/full AKC registration. Maybe it's working, maybe it has severe unintended consequences.
3. We need to have more public information regarding ownership of purebred dogs. AKC has not been very proactive in this regard.
4. Dog shows need to bring the general public in the door to see what we are doing. We need to have individual clubs get more media attention about dog shows.

Yes people have competition for their time. But as others have stated, horse shows have attendance way up. Why can't we?


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