# Scout Field Update



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I love updates! Isn't it amazing to look back and realize how far you've come? 
Can't wait for you to enter the JH tests. They're FUN, and I'm sure Scout will do great!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

One word of warning about Goldens. You have probably already discovered this. You will think they have a concept down because they learn it quickly. You go on to the next step and lo and behold problems come up because the last step wasn't solid enough. Ask me how I know.
it cost me few entry fees to figure it out.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Please put that in big bold letters and put it on a billboard.......
I am discovering this in training more often than I care to admit.

p.s. luckily I take lessons from a pro who knows and loves goldens!




Radarsdad said:


> One word of warning about Goldens. You have probably already discovered this. You will think they have a concept down because they learn it quickly. You go on to the next step and lo and behold problems come up because the last step wasn't solid enough. Ask me how I know.
> it cost me few entry fees to figure it out.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

I was told by Radar's breeder. If they do it right 3 times in a row 5 days straight they have it. I didn't listen. Radar went back to FF 3 times before we got it right!!!!


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Keep the updates coming! I love to hear the adventures of Scout!!!!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Radarsdad said:


> One word of warning about Goldens. You have probably already discovered this. You will think they have a concept down because they learn it quickly. You go on to the next step and lo and behold problems come up because the last step wasn't solid enough. Ask me how I know.
> it cost me few entry fees to figure it out.


Well what I've figured out--and it could be because I've got one of them bitches--is that they learn fast enough BUT they've got a mind of their own. 

And with your first dog it is a learning experience--and sometimes we just have to learn the hard way! If you read any of my previous posts you would know I spent forever trying to fix single t. Just when one problem seemed resolved, another would pop up. Some days I never thought I would move on.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

I love the "Hunt and Field" posts. Thanks for the update. Can't wait to hear about your first pass.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Radarsdad said:


> One word of warning about Goldens. You have probably already discovered this. You will think they have a concept down because they learn it quickly. You go on to the next step and lo and behold problems come up because the last step wasn't solid enough. Ask me how I know.
> it cost me few entry fees to figure it out.


That's not a Golden problem. That's a trainer problem, and it's among the most pervasive issues among dog trainers. How many times have you heard someone complain "My dog is entirely too well trained!"?

EvanG


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

EvanG said:


> That's not a Golden problem. That's a trainer problem, and it's among the most pervasive issues among dog trainers. How many times have you heard someone complain "My dog is entirely too well trained!"?
> 
> EvanG


I am not so sure about it being just the "trainer" problem. I put my daughters lab through the same steps and my buddy's lab trained right along with Radar. There is a definite difference in the two breeds. It sticks better with labs I don't believe they "think" (probably not the right word) as much as goldens or it could be that goldens "mature" slower. I have heard that a lot.



> Well what I've figured out--and it could be because I've got one of them bitches--is that they learn fast enough BUT they've got a mind of their own.


And that's where I have found that inconsistency can cause a train wreck. Lot's of patience and persistence.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Sorry Evan, you're wrong! 
Goldens are WAY smarter than any other breed.
They learn WAY faster than any other breed.
They are MUCH better dogs than any other breed! 
And you will never convince me otherwise :




EvanG said:


> That's not a Golden problem. That's a trainer problem, and it's among the most pervasive issues among dog trainers. How many times have you heard someone complain "My dog is entirely too well trained!"?
> 
> EvanG


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Train the dog you have, not the pre-conception of the breed. I'm putting my 4th through basics right now and each has been different in their aptitudes, trainability, and progression through the steps. Moving ahead before learning is proofed and internalized is a mistake many trainers make with all breeds!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

sterregold said:


> Train the dog you have, not the pre-conception of the breed. I'm putting my 4th through basics right now and each has been different in their aptitudes, trainability, and progression through the steps. Moving ahead before learning is proofed and internalized is a mistake many trainers make with all breeds!


That is very true. You train the dog you have.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

As Doug Shade (a Pro in our area) puts it, you would want a Lab to do the books and the Golden to throw the party! They are the ones with the lampshade on their heads. That's why I love this breed! They like to have fun and mix it up. 

So, yes it may be holes in training, but take it from one who had a real party animal, even with proofed, trained to the nth degree, girl, competition was always an adventure. I never knew from one event to the other which dog would show up, the teammate I loved so dear, or the one that was out to have a good time....without me. Dang, I miss that dog.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> competition was always an adventure


Keeps it interesting doesn't it? Not too many dull moments. You send em off and pray! Not really, a Golden will *REALLY* teach you how to read, and pay attention to your dog.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Radarsdad said:


> I am not so sure about it being just the "trainer" problem. I put my daughters lab through the same steps and my buddy's lab trained right along with Radar. There is a definite difference in the two breeds. It sticks better with labs I don't believe they "think" (probably not the right word) as much as goldens or it could be that goldens "mature" slower. I have heard that a lot.


Are you making that broad assessment on the results of two dogs? One Golden, one Lab, and those generalities are set in stone? Wait until you've trained a few hundred of all retriever breeds. Perhaps you'll be more apt to cut Goldens a little more slack.

Some of the brightest and most talented retreivers I've had the pleasure of training were swamp collies! And some of the slowest knuckle heads were Labs. But neither deserves to be stereotyped. Train the dog you're training.

EvanG


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Sorry Evan, you're wrong!
> Goldens are WAY smarter than any other breed.
> They learn WAY faster than any other breed.
> They are MUCH better dogs than any other breed!
> And you will never convince me otherwise :


Of course you have no prejudice!  I just love a good dog, regardless of breed or color.:wavey:

EvanG


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> Perhaps you'll be more apt to cut Goldens a little more slack.


Where you pulled this out of I have no idea unless you looking for something!
Since I've had and trained 5 of em some might get the idea I just might like them. Anybody that knows me knows I prefer Goldens. 



> One Golden, one Lab, and those generalities are set in stone?


How do you know it's just one of each. How do you know these are the only ones I have observed or trained or help train. That was an example and my observation. If you don't like my opinion you don't have to agree with it.

In case you haven't noticed this is still a free country and I still have right to voice my opinion and this is a forum for discussion.



> I just love a good dog, regardless of breed or color


So do I


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

More work on pattern blinds yesterday and she is coming along. After the first time I did not identify the stakes, just sent her. She did pretty decently. There was a little head swinging but she is in the learning stages. I'm told we can move on when I can take her to that field and she sits and stares out waiting for me to send her. We'll get there.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

we all hijacked your thread so badly I forgot the original post was about Scout and her progress!
Sounds like she's coming along good on the pattern blinds. What cover are you working in?



GoldenSail said:


> More work on pattern blinds yesterday and she is coming along. After the first time I did not identify the stakes, just sent her. She did pretty decently. There was a little head swinging but she is in the learning stages. I'm told we can move on when I can take her to that field and she sits and stares out waiting for me to send her. We'll get there.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> we all hijacked your thread so badly I forgot the original post was about Scout and her progress!
> Sounds like she's coming along good on the pattern blinds. What cover are you working in?


Oh, it is light. Mowed grass and all. We will work up to heavy cover, but it has to be easy before it is hard. Confidence building. The set up is three white stakes in a triangle. Two on either end about the same distance and fairly close, the point in the center and about twice as far away. She runs outside, outside, then in. Three retrieves per stake. Our first time my friend identified the pile by holding the bumping and dropping it, then walking away. She hasn't had any piles pointed out to her since.

We're going to work on that setup until it is solid. Then she'll teach us some more pattern blinds and we'll work up to heavy cover. 

I was also told that at this stage of the game if she casts wrong to just let her go for awhile. She's a green dog that is learning and we don't want to discourage effort by trying to stop her every five feet to get better casts. As she becomes advanced and more experience this will not be the case, but for now even if she doesn't quite go in the right direction we'll let her run for awhile and she is a good girl for trying.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Are you casting to them or lining to them? I'm confused...




GoldenSail said:


> Oh, it is light. Mowed grass and all. We will work up to heavy cover, but it has to be easy before it is hard. Confidence building. The set up is three white stakes in a triangle. Two on either end about the same distance and fairly close, the point in the center and about twice as far away. She runs outside, outside, then in. Three retrieves per stake. Our first time my friend identified the pile by holding the bumping and dropping it, then walking away. She hasn't had any piles pointed out to her since.
> 
> We're going to work on that setup until it is solid. Then she'll teach us some more pattern blinds and we'll work up to heavy cover.
> 
> I was also told that at this stage of the game if she casts wrong to just let her go for awhile. She's a green dog that is learning and we don't want to discourage effort by trying to stop her every five feet to get better casts. As she becomes advanced and more experience this will not be the case, but for now even if she doesn't quite go in the right direction we'll let her run for awhile and she is a good girl for trying.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Are you casting to them or lining to them? I'm confused...


I am sending her. Telling her 'dead bird' then sending her when she is aligned. If she goes off a little I stop and cast if needed, but I have needed much of that. I don't expect too cast much since it is a pattern blind and she knows where they are.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

ah, I get it. You said you weren't stopping her if she casts wrong, so I was trying to get a mental picture of how you were casting her to the stakes....


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Working on FTP with Winter. The problem has been finding a place with short grass that has enough distance. Even the local parks have long grass. It has been very wet here and they can't get in to mow without tearing things up. This week the fields have been finally been getting mowed. 
The mark's we have been running are in middle thigh cover and I'm 6 feet tall. The dogs look like Winnie the Pooh's Tiger bounding thru the cover.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

A lot of our cover is really high now, too. Our alfalfa needs to be cut, it's over Tito's head now....not much point training in that....
Meanwhile, I have nice long distances of mowed grass. Too bad you aren't closer....



hollyk said:


> Working on FTP with Winter. The problem has been finding a place with short grass that has enough distance. Even the local parks have long grass. It has been very wet here and they can't get in to mow without tearing things up. This week the fields have been finally been getting mowed.
> The mark's we have been running are in middle thigh cover and I'm 6 feet tall. The dogs look like Winnie the Pooh's Tiger bounding thru the cover.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> ah, I get it. You said you weren't stopping her if she casts wrong, so I was trying to get a mental picture of how you were casting her to the stakes....


No, I will stop her if she casts wrong but I won't stop her right away. Make sense? If she is a little off I will let her run for a short distance. I am told it is a confidence thing--which makes sense. By letting her run I am encouraging effort. She is trying.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

No, I'm still confused, so I think you and I must use different terms.
She is facing you? And you cast her to the stake? 
Or she is facing the stake, and you line her to it?
(sorry, my brain is spaghetti these days)




GoldenSail said:


> No, I will stop her if she casts wrong but I won't stop her right away. Make sense? If she is a little off I will let her run for a short distance. I am told it is a confidence thing--which makes sense. By letting her run I am encouraging effort. She is trying.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> No, I'm still confused, so I think you and I must use different terms.
> She is facing you? And you cast her to the stake?
> Or she is facing the stake, and you line her to it?
> (sorry, my brain is spaghetti these days)


I line her to the stake. For the most par she has no trouble. IF she goes off trail I can stop and cast her. IF she is still off from that I just let her go. It is a pattern she knows so she will get there. You don't want to stop and cast them every five feet when they are learning even if they are taking the wrong cast. Not a lot of casting now though, but as we get more that is how it will be.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> No, I'm still confused, so I think you and I must use different terms.
> She is facing you? And you cast her to the stake?
> Or she is facing the stake, and you line her to it?
> (sorry, my brain is spaghetti these days)


I line her to the stake. For the most par she has no trouble. IF she goes off trail I can stop and cast her. IF she is still off from that I just let her go. It is a pattern she knows so she will get there. You don't want to stop and cast them every five feet when they are learning even if they are taking the wrong cast. Not a lot of casting now though, but as we get more that is how it will be.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

NOW I get it. Sheesh I feel stoooooopid.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well, Scout has these pattern blinds down very well! I am going to now spend a few sessions mixing up the piles I send her to and also doing some whistle sits and casting. After that--new pattern blind!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I think you should bring her down to Atlanta and get a WC on her!


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## marsh mop (Mar 13, 2009)

> After that--new pattern blind!


I am no expert so take it for what is worth, use pattern blind your dog knows to advance. If your dog knows all the legs well then you can really start to have fun. Set chairs, wingers, buckets or whatever between the legs of the pattern blinds and run it. Changes everything for you and the dog, gives you great use of what you and the dog know. You will get more opportunities to handle to a know destination and away from suction of the NEW stuff to see. Later you can add marks and NO them off and do a leg of your PB to prepare for posion birds.
It was free so take it for what it's worth.
Jim


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> I think you should bring her down to Atlanta and get a WC on her!


Ha I would love to--if you want to pay the gas : Gosh, I wonder how long it would take me to drive that....I've never been that far east before!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Ha I would love to--if you want to pay the gas : Gosh, I wonder how long it would take me to drive that....I've never been that far east before!


Well I drove through about 5 minutes of Iowa on my way to Colorado (a corner between Missouri and Nebraska) and from that little corner it'd be a 2 day drive. But---- at least you WON'T have to drive through NEBRASKA.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Well I drove through about 5 minutes of Iowa on my way to Colorado (a corner between Missouri and Nebraska) and from that little corner it'd be a 2 day drive. But---- at least you WON'T have to drive through NEBRASKA.


But that's just it--I would have to drive through Nebraska. At least according to map quest. It's a 32 hour quest


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

And now that we have trained in more water we are ready to finally enter our first test. I've been waiting for the right one. There was one this weekend but I was advised not to go because of the judges (sigh).

However, there is a test coming up on June 19th that is local so cross your fingers for us!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> There was one this weekend but I was advised not to go because of the judges


I used to subscribe to that theory also but if my pup is ready (that is the goal) they have no choice but to pass him!!!!!!!!!!! If he does the work.

My theory is, it is better to train your dog to pass the test than worry about the judges.

Too many variables to include the judges in the mix. I train for the level above the one I am running anyway.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> And now that we have trained in more water we are ready to finally enter our first test. I've been waiting for the right one. There was one this weekend but I was advised not to go because of the judges (sigh).
> 
> However, there is a test coming up on June 19th that is local so cross your fingers for us!


You know, every time someone tells me not to enter something because of the judges, I either end up regretting not entering, or I enter and find the judges just wonderful. It's the ones everyone raves about that turn out to be duds. Too bad you missed this test but the one on the 18/19 sounds great. Best of luck, have fun! I bet you find that Scout is overprepared


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I almost entered the test--but got talked out of it. Someone told me they like to make up their own decisions about judges. That's a good philosophy but I did not enter this time around.

At any rate, we did do some training today and it was great! I was really happy with how she handled the mixed up pattern blinds and random casts. She made no errors, and I did not need to move her up at all. My only regret is that I put one of the bumpers away and forgot about it. So when I counted 8 bumpers I thought there was one more and sent her out. She went beautifully, but could not find a bumper and was hunting for one fiercely. I get the bad handler award for that one. The only thing I could think to do was to sit her and run out there and give her a bumper throw (which I am told is right except for the throw part--I should have placed the bumper to cover my error).

We also went to start her water t. I learned that swimby and water t are not the same thing and that swimby is optional and all about control. All we did to get Scout started was set up a pile of bumpers across a small pond and have her go 'back' to the pile. The first two sends I had to encourage her to go with my arm, but after that she had it down fairly well. I don't think I will need to do this many times before adding in side piles.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

...And I am excited to see a show bred golden entered in this upcoming test. Be good to meet someone else--she's a Yogi Granddaughter. Generally not only am I the only one with a show bred golden, but I am the only one with a golden PERIOD at training days.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> swimby and water t are not the same thing and that swimby is optional


I don't consider swim-by optional it is part of my training. Reinforces to carry casts in water. Others may have different ideas.



> I had to encourage her to go with my arm,


Force to pile over water covers that one.
Really great to hear the progress you both are making. Wishing my little man would hurry up and grow. Although you can see he is shooting up quickly.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Radarsdad said:


> I don't consider swim-by optional it is part of my training. Reinforces to carry casts in water. Others may have different ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I intend on doing swimby, but I was told it is not something that needs to be done. And the arm and extra command was used the first few times only because she did not understand the task. It was new to her. 

I also don't know if I will do force to pile in water--is that the same as force to water in general? I have heard of it making dogs iffy around water. Haven't decided for sure yet.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

I will do force over water before I start T in the water. Also will do swimby before T in water or pattern blinds. That's just MY plan I'm sure your pro has a progression that works for him.
Just my opinion only!!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

FWIW, my pro says if you have a dog that loves water, not much you can do is going to change that. If you don't, you do need to be careful around water. Depends totally on the dog.
Sounds like you guys are doing great. You're going to ace the JH test!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> my pro says if you have a dog that loves water, not much you can do is going to change that


I would tend to disagree with that but I will leave it alone.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Radarsdad said:


> I will do force over water before I start T in the water. Also will do swimby before T in water or pattern blinds. That's just MY plan I'm sure your pro has a progression that works for him.
> Just my opinion only!!


Why is that? I don't understand--don't you need the water t in order for them to understand the swimby?

....and I don't train with a pro...just good friends and books...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Radarsdad said:


> I would tend to disagree with that but I will leave it alone.


Uhh, yeah.
Sorry but there are LOTS of things you can do to get even the most enthusiastic dog to hate water. Bad or unfortunate training can mess up a lot.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Generally T in the water is done in the same spot you do swimby and prepares the dog for swimby. Pretty natural progression.
I didn't do any force en route at all with Fisher until he had his SH already, and did so to go back and cure popping on big water blinds. 
However with Slater I did FTP on land in the traditional sequence (extension of FF and T) and also force INTO the water on water T. You do not force en route while the dog is IN the water but rather while they are running to the water. You send them to the back pile from 10-15 feet from the shore so when you send them, you can get in a back-nick-back right before they launch for the water. It works quite nicely and makes the water the GOOD place. 
I will say, that BAD TRAINING created a fear of entering the water for Slater well before we ever did water T or swimby. He never had any hesitancy to do big swims, very comfortable in the water and always had a great entry. We had done a little dobb-style decheating and during training my instructor had me nick him while GOING to a mark because he traveled to far down the shore. Huge mistake. He thought the shore bit him and he started seriously no-going on the water on marks, would run at the shore then pull up short and not figure out how to get in without the shore "biting" him. I had to do a lot of heel-nick-heel to show him that it was a worse idea not to go at all. I thought at the time that Slater was doomed to always have water problems but after a lot of patience and consistency he snapped out of it. Water T and swimby came soon after and he was not only very responsive but very confident through force en route to the water. 
I've sense learned about and done Mitch White's version of decheating with Fisher and really love it. Will do Slater when I feel the time is right. With this method the dog is never corrected either en route or without being stopped first. 
So moral of the story yes you need to have water force in your toolkit, and yes you can screw up even a gung ho dog toward water with poor training.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

GoldenSail said:


> Why is that? I don't understand--don't you need the water t in order for them to understand the swimby?
> 
> ....and I don't train with a pro...just good friends and books...


For me Force To Pile on land and then to Force to pile over water carries momentum from the previous (land) to water and to keep momentum in water also. The swim by that I do is to carry the momentum of my casts once I start the T in the water. The dog knows what I expect from a cast and to carry it as far as instructed. I am putting the skills that he needs in place before I add a new concept.

This is what I do and it works for me. May not work for someone else.

Whatever book or plan you are following do it in the order they tell you. Every step builds to the next. You will get in trouble with mix and matching programs.


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