# Criteria for a field breeding



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Alaska7133 said:


> This is a subject I know nothing about and I was hoping that anyone who bred a field litter or purchased a field pup could chime in. So here's my questions.
> 
> 1. How do you decide which dam / sire to breed?
> 2. Do you use COI? How do you use it?
> ...




I am not a breeder and my current litter is the first I have ever bred. To answer your questions:

1. I consulted with Melanie Foster who bred and owned (for 6 mos.) Buffy's father. And I trusted her advice on genetics.
2. I checked COI. I eliminated other possibilities for sire. 
3. I very much am concerned with popular sire syndrome. 
4. Physical attributes---it depends. I like a nice looking (in my opinion) dog. However I avoid much of the looks that I find in the conformation ring. Not to start a war but many physical characteristics in conformation dogs are not useful for my hunting. Period. I like a non-fluffy, high drive, smaller dog that looks and acts the part.
5. I like to see the dog work, I like to know that the owner hunts/trials, and I like to see the owner is involved mainly in field events. This shows where his interest lies and what his breeding interests are/have been.
6. If I can't see a dog work I like to speak to someone who has. I like a dog that is trainable but runs hard. 
7. In breeding my litter I was looking to produce puppies that I personally would like to own. Health, good prey drive, within the standard. I also tried to produce a litter that would not be over the top in energy, i.e. one that a beginner as well as a seasoned field person could deal with.

In making my choices for a field dog I am fussy. I need to see the desire and drive.
P.S. I am keeping one of the pups.


----------



## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Alaska7133 said:


> This is a subject I know nothing about and I was hoping that anyone who bred a field litter or purchased a field pup could chime in. So here's my questions.


What defines a field litter or field pup?


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Good question, I did leave that open a bit didn't I?

I was thinking if your primary interest in breeding a litter is for field trials and/or hunt tests. Does that help? I was trying to separate it from say an obedience, agility, or conformation breeding.

I look at a lot of field pedigrees and wondered how the breeders arrived at a particular combination of sire/dam.


----------



## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

Alaska7133 said:


> Good question, I did leave that open a bit didn't I?
> 
> I was thinking if your primary interest in breeding a litter is for field trials and/or hunt tests. Does that help? I was trying to separate it from say an obedience, agility, or conformation breeding.
> 
> I look at a lot of field pedigrees and wondered how the breeders arrived at a particular combination of sire/dam.


I have a litter due in two weeks. Aside from clearances which are a given, I chose the sire based on the following (not necessarily in this order):
1. Work ethic- I like a trainable, easy to manage dog with good drive and marking ability. I train my own dogs so I don't want a dog that is difficult to work with since I only breed when I want a puppy for myself. Seeing the dog run and watching how he works gives me a lot of answers. Or watching his offspring run if the dog is not around.

2.Appearance, structure, size. I like a medium sized dog with a working coat. Color doesn't matter, nor does straight vs. wavy matter. 

3.Pedigree matters. I do a lot of test breedings in K9data before I make a decision. I like to look at longevity, COI, and a history of successful dogs.
The pedigree has to be 100% field. Just my personal preference.

4.Temperament is very important. Another reason it helps to see the dog in person if possible, or see what he has produced.

These are a few things that come to mind. It takes me a long time to decide on the right dog and a lot of thought goes into it. I have watched many dogs in the field and it has given me a feel for dogs I like and dogs that I don't want in the pedigree.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I have never bred a field dog but have owned several field goldens. 

My first look is at the parents, if I have not seen the parents I normally check with people whom I trust who have met the parents as well as the dam/stud owners. With Belle I have full trust in George as far as getting a comprehensive image of the dam and sire temperament. 

Work-ability is next and I do lump in that the drive, mark-ability and the bid-ability of the dog. A dog cannot work unless it is biddable, can mark and has the drive. 



The COI is always a concern to me especially in the field goldens. It is something I have to compromise on. Yup I would like it between 5 and 8 but that is to be desired. 

I like the natural breeding. And in Belle's case it is exactly what I was looking for - closer to middle age female and younger stud. 

Titles are not important to me. If a dog can hunt all day I rather have that dog's pup than an MH dog. 

Physical attributes: middle size dogs, field type coat - not long nor fluffy. 

I do not look that much at pedigree as a purchaser. I do care about longevity but I feel even that is a labyrinth that one can end up lost in it. 

As a purchaser I personally do not want a repeat breeding. It is just a personal preference. 

Another personal preference is to have a pup from the dam's first litter.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> As a purchaser I personally do not want a repeat breeding. It is just a personal preference.
> 
> Another personal preference is to have a pup from the dam's first litter.


Can you elaborate more on this? I've always viewed being able to see what the parents have already produced as a huge benefit


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Loisiana said:


> Can you elaborate more on this? I've always viewed being able to see what the parents have already produced as a huge benefit


Not being snarky but I said it is a *personal preference*. If I wanted to elaborate I would have when I wrote it.


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Thank you Claudia.

One of the things that I had done was get video of Buffy working. I believe that seeing parents work is important but not always possible. I let all potential puppy buyers see my video. And if I can I will give them an opportunity to see her work when they get here. They will get to see field work as well as obedience work. 

Another thing---full disclosure on all things including health in the pedigree. I had done my homework in talking to Buffy's breeder, breeder of her sire, breeder of her dam, the stud dog owner, and Melanie Foster who bred to the stud dog's sire. I have made all that information available to potential puppy buyers. Actually more than available, I have outright told them.

I don't know what other breeders do but I know what I want to do. I want to look like I did my very best to investigate backgrounds to produce a nice litter and if I never breed again I hopefully have done nothing to tarnish my reputation.


----------



## CarmenK (Dec 27, 2010)

Alaska7133 said:


> Good question, I did leave that open a bit didn't I?
> 
> I was thinking if your primary interest in *breeding a litter is for field trials and/or hunt tests*. Does that help? I was trying to separate it from say an obedience, agility, or conformation breeding.
> 
> I look at a lot of field pedigrees and wondered how the breeders arrived at a particular combination of sire/dam.



Thinking of what I've seen in training together with both field trial people and hunt test people over the last four years, I believe there is a huge difference in breeding a litter for each of those purposes. 

Of course in both venues you need easy to train dogs that can mark very well, have drive and show persistence. But, with the long distances in field trials comes the need for high driven dogs who can also take more pressure in training. (This is just what I think.) Now, here comes the business part. If you are a well known field trial breeder you are lucky, because you have a long waiting list. If not, you have to decide if you wanna breed your female that has field trial potential to another high driven dog or not. I think, those puppies should only be placed in homes where they get appropriate education and physical and mental training.

As to the first question: When I do my homework on deciding for a sire, most important are clearances and longevity in both lines.


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

CarmenK said:


> Thinking of what I've seen in training together with both field trial people and hunt test people over the last four years, I believe there is a huge difference in breeding a litter for each of those purposes.
> 
> Of course in both venues you need easy to train dogs that can mark very well, have drive and show persistence. But, with the long distances in field trials comes the need for high driven dogs who can also take more pressure in training. (This is just what I think.)


My general impression (WHICH COULD BE WRONG!) is that the hunt testers often go to field trial lines, but look beyond the first generation or two, whereas field trialers generally look closely at those two generations. 

Just a quick comment on the need for "high pressure" tolerance of field trial dogs. I have had fairly close association with a few pretty nice field trial dogs. The very best one was trained on a 1 or a 2 (Tritronics scale goes from 1 to 6), and very often a loud "NO" sufficed for the correction. The need for pressure tolerance has mitigated due, in part, to advancement of training techniques, evolution of new equipment, and the demands of field trial tests.

FTGoldens


----------



## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

A lot of 'good stuff' here on this question:

I am not a breeder, but have had field bred Golden's since 1999. I current have 3 which I hunt test and hunt birds with every season. 

Each time I have purchased another pup, I had learned more about breeders and all the things you should consider. Health clearances is a given, these dogs already have some issues going on within the gene pool, so you must have full clearances to improve the odds of a long term healthy dog. I also check the COI and Longevity on K9data.com

I agree that hunt test folks look for field trial backgrounds back through the pedigree, but I am influenced more by the parents and grandparents than the others. FC greatest, AFC great, MNH very good, MH good, WCX good, SH for one parent ok, but not the best. I also love to see Obedience titles and/or Agility...

Usually it is much harder to find a breeding bitch with the high titles, as with breeding and training they get a bit old. 

I will not consider a bitch that is not yet two as they will not have had all health clearness. I prefer one that is from a second or third litter as the bitch is usually better at being a mother, although some bitches are great with first litters. 

If you can see the parents running on bumpers of birds you can tell much about the pups. High drive, trainability, nose, etc. can be observed in this setting, except of the litter was delivered the bitch should not be observed. 

That is about all I can add, to the already good list you have,

Good luck


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

*My general impression (WHICH COULD BE WRONG!) is that the hunt testers often go to field trial lines, but look beyond the first generation or two, whereas field trialers generally look closely at those two generations. *


I like to look at field trial lines. I was probably heavily influenced by James Lamb Free's book TRAINING YOUR RETRIEVER in forming this attitude. And you know what? I think it is GREAT advice.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

What about structure and conformation of a field dog?
I'm not referring to size, that's a fuzzy thing to say, I like a medium size dog. 
I'm referring to length of leg, body, chest, all those things that reflect on performance and ability to do field work. Does anyone look at those qualities in a dog or bitch to breed to?
Some physical characteristics are not important to field dogs like tail set or length of snout or length of tail. All those are irrelevant I think to field work.
But coat is very relevant. So if you had to choose a coat for a field dog, how would you describe it or do you have a photo of one? Would you breed to one dog versus another based on coat?

I'm just really trying to define what goes into a field breeding. What makes one dog more valuable than another other than the titles?


----------



## CarmenK (Dec 27, 2010)

FTGoldens said:


> Just a quick comment on the need for "high pressure" tolerance of field trial dogs. I have had fairly close association with a few pretty nice field trial dogs. The very best one was trained on a 1 or a 2 (Tritronics scale goes from 1 to 6), and very often a loud "NO" sufficed for the correction. The need for pressure tolerance has mitigated due, in part, to advancement of training techniques, evolution of new equipment, and the demands of field trial tests.
> 
> FTGoldens


I don't necessarily mean the level of stimulation. There is also more mental pressure in training a FT dog. Just one example: In a FT, a dog can not be successful on a mark if he runs to the wrong side of the gun station. Now, you have an excellent marking dog with natural ability to work with the wind. That dog will fade in the wind in order to find the bird quickly ... and gets penalized. I've seen FT peoply working against this instinct which is in my eyes pressure on the dog's natural understanding.

Maybe I'm wrong and will see things different in a few years.


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> What about structure and conformation of a field dog?
> I'm not referring to size, that's a fuzzy thing to say, I like a medium size dog.
> I'm referring to length of leg, body, chest, all those things that reflect on performance and ability to do field work. Does anyone look at those qualities in a dog or bitch to breed to?
> Some physical characteristics are not important to field dogs like tail set or length of snout or length of tail. All those are irrelevant I think to field work.
> ...


I'm a field trialer; my continuing goal in life is to continue to train Golden Retrievers to beat Labradors and the occasional Chessie. The best, though far from fail-proof, way to improve the odds of acquiring a puppy that has the potential to beat said other breeds in field trials is to get one from lines which have a proven history of doing so. So that's first.

As to other factors:
I will look at COI (although that doesn't tell the full story of line/in-breeding) and a 5 gen pedigree of the litter to make sure that the names are not repeated too many times. [Barty, Duncan and Devil will still show up multiple times in many field pedigrees due to their profound influence on field Goldens.]
Many things which I consider to be factors, none of which are conclusive, I know just by the reputations of the dogs in the pedigree, such as temperament, bidibility (spell check doesn't like that word ... maybe I'm spelling it wrong or maybe it's not a proper word, like "irregardless"), intelligence, water attitude, water ability, marking ability, drive, tendency to run straight for long distances, etc.
Joints ... I don't just look at the parents, but instead look at 3 or more generations to get a feel for the lines.
Longevity ... again, I look at several generations; I don't want to train a dog for several years and get it ready to start winning trials to only find out that it won't live long ... plus, I don't want to go through the loss of a dog, particularly a young one. 
Coat ... don't care ... well, let me restate this ... my preference would be a tight coat with light feathering, but it's not a major factor.
White spot or two ... don't care.

Just my opinion, just for my purposes ....

FTGoldens


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

FTGoldens said:


> I'm a field trialer; my continuing goal in life is to continue to train Golden Retrievers to beat Labradors and the occasional Chessie. The best, though far from fail-proof, way to improve the odds of acquiring a puppy that has the potential to beat said other breeds in field trials is to get one from lines which have a proven history of doing so. So that's first.
> 
> As to other factors:
> I will look at COI (although that doesn't tell the full story of line/in-breeding) and a 5 gen pedigree of the litter to make sure that the names are not repeated too many times. [Barty, Duncan and Devil will still show up multiple times in many field pedigrees due to their profound influence on field Goldens.]
> ...


Very interesting post. Normally I look at the first two that influence the pup the most in the COI as far as everything is concerned especially longevity and health. Anything over two I assume an average of all over two. 
In Belle's case there are two with over 2% influence Barty and Devil.


----------



## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

FTGoldens said:


> My general impression (WHICH COULD BE WRONG!) is that the hunt testers often go to field trial lines, but look beyond the first generation or two, whereas field trialers generally look closely at those two generations.


Interesting. 

I have been told to look for a strong bitch line in whatever venue(s) I wish to do.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

CarmenK said:


> I don't necessarily mean the level of stimulation. There is also more mental pressure in training a FT dog. Just one example: In a FT, a dog can not be successful on a mark if he runs to the wrong side of the gun station. Now, you have an excellent marking dog with natural ability to work with the wind. That dog will fade in the wind in order to find the bird quickly ... and gets penalized. I've seen FT peoply working against this instinct which is in my eyes pressure on the dog's natural understanding.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong and will see things different in a few years.


Sorry Stacey for derailing the thread a bit. 

Carmen, did you run trials and hunt tests both in the US and in Europe? If so can you tells us the difference between them? Maybe in a new thread?


----------

