# How did/do you teach go outs?



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

First part...






Fast forward to the :59 point in the video.

And here is where there is a split with obedience people. I chose the nose touch method with my dogs because I'm already teaching them to nose touch my hands (which goes into shaping other stuff). Others experience a lot of "cheating" with that and they want bigger obvious touches, so they train the dogs to touch a stanchion with the feet. You can look up Adele Yunck - pretty sure she has a video on youtube showing the beginning stages to training a touch on a stanchion.

With go-touch - I used a binder clip on a cloth hanging on the stove. It clinked when he touched it so I knew when he was touching it. It was also a "clicker" type thing where when he heard the clink, he knew he was right and there was a reward coming.

That is the first step and generally once you've got that transferred over to your dog knowing the stanchion is the target spot every time, that is half the battle.

2. The other half is training your dog to run a straight line to the target. This is why a lot of us load the target spot with a treat for a short period of time before transitioning over to tossed treats once the dog understands the "run very fast" behavior. 

I used a binder clip (same deal as when my guy was a puppy) which clipped to the stanchion and had a little peanut butter on the "wings". 


3. Don't build distance too fast. <= You don't want to break your go outs by going from 6 feet (which is a good starting distance) all the way to a full ring distance from the target too fast.

4. Train the "mark". I'm not really sure what goes on between the ears when you do the mark behavior. But it is one thing you can do between setting up and telling the judge you're ready which cues the dog up for what will come.

Bertie does a full border collie type mark with him not only dipping his head but dropping his upper body slightly revving up for me to release him into the "go"... <= It looks cool (LOL) and he does seem to be glued into the target spot straight across the ring... but it doesn't always stop him from detouring to one or the other jumps sometimes. 

5. Always reinforce your target spot when training. Because if you just do formal go-outs all the time, the dogs start cheating on you. A lot of them run halfway and turn around for their go-outs between or close to the jumps. You always want to reinforce the go-out straight and fast to the target behavior.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

I have a full ring (or more) go-out in every environment (as long as he can see the target), I was just curious how others taught it. Unfortunately, my dog relies on the target. I'm in a Open/Utility problem solving class with an excellent trainer (Nancy Gagliardi Little) and I have chosen to work on helping my dog understand to just run straight until I say stop (basically) not find target and run toward it. So, we're sort-of redoing it. With a target, his go outs are a thing of beauty. Without one, he's confused.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Did you go from having a target to not having a target? Or did you go from having a target the size of a post it note to the size of a dime (then even the size of a dot) before asking the dog to do it without a target?


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I started when Sips was very young by putting a piece of kibble on a paper plate and sending her with an excited "go". I physically held her to get her excited and focused on the reward. As she grew and to keep it fun we moved to a tennis ball. 
As she got better at the go part I began using the arm to send her. When her sit was reliable we added that in as she was automatically turning to look back at me... just had to get my timing right :laugh:
It seemed easier for her to go after something than a mark.. my last girl went to a mark so guess it's about finding what works for you.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

FosterGolden said:


> I have a full ring (or more) go-out in every environment (as long as he can see the target), I was just curious how others taught it. Unfortunately, my dog relies on the target. I'm in a Open/Utility problem solving class with an excellent trainer (Nancy Gagliardi Little) and I have chosen to work on helping my dog understand to just run straight until I say stop (basically) not find target and run toward it. So, we're sort-of redoing it. With a target, his go outs are a thing of beauty. Without one, he's confused.


Are you in that part of CA where they don't have stanchions? 

We have stanchions pretty much every trial here so that is a target that is always there for the dogs. 

We do also train the dogs to run straight until they reach a wall or we call the sit. After the dog is trained with a target, you can go back to a short distance go with them going straight out. And break it up + speed up the rewards when he's right. Because there might be weird situations that throw the dog off (the go-out spot isn't up against a wall but an open ring or curtain, the ring is set up so there ISN'T a middle stanchion). The dogs should be trained either way. But targets are often used here + associated with the stanchion because it generally will be out there there right in the middle.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

solinvictus said:


> Did you go from having a target to not having a target? Or did you go from having a target the size of a post it note to the size of a dime (then even the size of a dot) before asking the dog to do it without a target?


Large white target to smaller white target, to colors that match the mat(s) or clear (which he can see). I have sent him to the target area after lifting the target after a successful send as well, and that works as well.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

Megora said:


> Are you in that part of CA where they don't have stanchions?
> 
> We have stanchions pretty much every trial here so that is a target that is always there for the dogs.
> 
> We do also train the dogs to run straight until they reach a wall or we call the sit. After the dog is trained with a target, you can go back to a short distance go with them going straight out. And break it up + speed up the rewards when he's right. Because there might be weird situations that throw the dog off (the go-out spot isn't up against a wall but an open ring or curtain, the ring is set up so there ISN'T a middle stanchion). The dogs should be trained either way. But targets are often used here + associated with the stanchion because it generally will be out there there right in the middle.


We use stanchions here, usually. But sometimes we don't or sometimes it's the wire stanchions, not the wooden ones. And sometimes it's baby gate feet. Lots of variables, really.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

FosterGolden said:


> Large white target to smaller white target, to colors that match the mat(s) or clear (which he can see). I have sent him to the target area after lifting the target after a successful send as well, and that works as well.


Does he see you put the target out there? 

That might be what he's going off of vs actually understanding the "go" part of the exercise. If you are having problems weaning off a target that is not easily visible, then it could be something else like that.... 

There's a lot of people out there who use mats, boxes, yardsticks, runways, etc out there at the go-out spot. But it can be slow-going and frustrating sometimes when training with something that you have wean off of or get rid of at some point..... 

I did the white paper plate with Jacks and that whole experience was the biggest reason why 9-12 week old Bertie was taught the first step of a "touch" go-out.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

Megora said:


> Does he see you put the target out there?
> 
> That might be what he's going off of vs actually understanding the "go" part of the exercise. If you are having problems weaning off a target that is not easily visible, then it could be something else like that....
> 
> ...


Sometimes he sees me, sometimes he does not. There is a distinct difference between "I know it's out there, I see it!" and "What did you just send me for; there is nothing out there?". We use a touch go out also. I am working with Nancy and she is having me use a lag screw in a suction cup taped to the floor. Says the lids are way too visual and that it's easier to get rid of a target when you use something vertical versus something on the floor, taking up space. I trust her; just an interesting way to do it and I was curious about other people's experience and how they taught it. Seems some dogs really "get" it and some dogs really don't. I really want my dog to understand "run straight until further notice" not "run to the stanchion".


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Heh. Stanchions are vertical. And you don't have to get rid of them...  

FWIW - I'm chipping in here because other haven't yet and I'm trying to keep your thread up and visible in new posts. There are a handful of other trainers on this forum who have different ways of training go-outs. And these are people who have gotten UD's (and MORE) with their dogs so I do hope they chip in with the kind of responses you are looking for. 

You know... @hotel4dogs, @K9-Design, @Sunrise, @Loisiana, @Nuggetsdad, @Titan1, and @Beanie... and whoever else might still be out there. 

Also - do fun matches whenever you can. Different set of eyes can spot extra cues you might be doing + you get to see different ways of training different things. It's actually more helpful sometimes to watch fun matches than it is to watch trials when it comes to the exercises themselves. The in-between stuff and handling skills - watch trials!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I take a splitter approach to Go Outs 

One split is the MARK. Taught in a few different ways. One is food or a toy/acrylic dowel at the stanchion/post/tree trunk, end of the parking lot linr etc starting from 2 feet away and working backwards. Also an actual target (sometimes just painters tape) against a vertical surface - wall, post, chair again working close to far away. One is more of a fieldy style using a white overturned bucket which are marked to, and also field marking drills where you have multiple bumpers out - or plates with 1 being baited - with turns & marks. By teaching in may different places and using different props, I think they can really grasp the idea. My first golden (King UD) also had a pooh bear dog toy mounted in a tree and we raced to see who could get the bear first - I will occasionally still use this but the running with the dog has to be faded so it is just a sometimes thing. Fading the targets etc is not difficult and I probably use targets about 85% of the time -- frequently just dropping a tidbit as we are heeling by what will be the Go Out spot; once trained this will give minimal information that a treat is out there and my dogs never know. Oh, I will also start them off with that whipped cream in a can or a dab of cheese spread on the stanchion/post/tree trunk etc at nose height. 

Then there is the sit. I work distance sits first working from a few feet away to full distance. The sit also involves turning tightly and fully facing me - this is a combination of agility turning drills and using corners where I find them to cue the turn and sit. At first a non agility dog may need to be on a leash and guided into a tight turn and sit. I do not accept anything less than a sit that is at least mostly facing me -- more than a 15-20 degree turn off center is reset. Eventually the cues to jump become a strong reward but that too is taught separately.

I have several games I play as well but this might help. One fun game for the dogs is tossing an object over their heads as they are going out to help build the drive. This game will eventually morph into a proofing game where (I usually use foam bowling ball pins for this) I toss the object(s) off the center line as the are heading out or have objects on either side of the Go Out line as distraction.

One method I have not had luck with but some swear by is attaching 2 long lines to the gating at about dog shoulder height and laying the long line on the ground on either side of the Go Out line. The line lays flat until the dog is sent and then the handler reaches down to pick up the ends -- if the dog veers off the center line, the lines are raised to 'guide' the dog back to straight. My dogs just jump over the lines and think its a fun game LOL

I personally do not train a foot of nose touch -- many folks do  I just do not like seeing a dog knock down gating or insisting on whacking a stanchion after the turn cue -- this may be a more appropriate method if you train with compulsion as you can correct this behavior more readily, but if you train the R+ way it may create a Conditioned Emotional Response (CER) that could be difficult to train away from since that has to be very rewarding to the dog 

Good luck -- have fun with it  Both challenging and rewarding to train and a split that is subject to breakage so will need training throughout your dogs career -- straight lines are truly an abstract concept for us and our dogs


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

Megora said:


> Heh. Stanchions are vertical. And you don't have to get rid of them...
> 
> FWIW - I'm chipping in here because other haven't yet and I'm trying to keep your thread up and visible in new posts. There are a handful of other trainers on this forum who have different ways of training go-outs. And these are people who have gotten UD's (and MORE) with their dogs so I do hope they chip in with the kind of responses you are looking for.
> 
> ...


But, stanchions are huge, so it's a target...one you cannot fade. I really want my dog to run until told otherwise, which I think will also help with our blind retrieves. 

I do fun matches all the time, at least once a month. I see targets, stanchions covered with meat, dogs jumping walls, etc. Mostly I see targets and that's how most of my friends have taught it. Most dogs seem to be target-reliant. It was suggested I have a back-up target, so I taught a paw-whack on the stanchion, which I then decided was a bad idea because he can easily take down the ring doing that! Thank goodness it's not a strong behavior so it does not happen randomly. I also go to every trial within an hour of me to acclimate my dog, watch/support friends, steward, etc. I take FDSA classes (usually at Gold) nearly every semester. I see a lot of dogs at matches (and trials) making mistakes in go-outs. The less confidence dogs will pop, which is what I'll get if my dog does not fully understand the exercise and relies on a visual target. 

The trainer I am working with on this particular exercise has never *not* gotten an OTCH on her obedience dogs, even her Novice A dog. She is a well-known excellent trainer and I'm following her direction. Again, I was just curious how others do it and maybe figure out where I went wrong.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> But, stanchions are huge, so it's a target...one you cannot fade.


I don't mean to argue, but the stanchion is a narrow strip of wood which sits sideways between the ring gating. It is a target, but not huge and not always visible to dogs on the other side of the ring for various reasons. And it is always in the ring. 

So are other stanchions, by the way. 

A common problem with dogs who have been taught to go out to a stanchion but haven't been taught a clear "mark" and run-run-run straight behavior is after they get past the jumps they see at least 3 stanchions. 

I've seen dogs curl off to the left or right to cue into those other stanchions vs the center one. It's a huge frustration for the trainers because it's a behavior that doesn't happen if they are close up, but does happen when the dogs are doing longer distance go-outs and have the time and space to detour left or right. 

A lot of times... I think... it's a 2 steps forward and 4 steps back for some trainers with a young dog. 

A lot of dogs make mistakes while doing go-outs - but there are various reasons why. Sometimes it's what Sharon said above... you have to do 10 million practice go-outs until your dog is rock solid, and even there it will still break if you don't refresh and keep it rewarding and fun for them.

I believe you pick your battles + try to problem solve where the gap is with your dog. Also, you don't need to get hung up on thinking that suggestions correlate to people telling you to go train with somebody else or anything negative about who you train with.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@Sunrise - I think I said this before, but while I was taught the marking type training exercises with white plates or plastic lids with treats on them, with the idea of that building the foundation for directed retrieves and I guess the go-out too... it never clicked in my brain until the lady I take privates with taught me how to "mark" for go-outs. 

And fast forward to today - I use that "mark" for go-outs, for directed retrieves, and also for the broad jump. I get it now.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

FosterGolden said:


> Sometimes he sees me, sometimes he does not. There is a distinct difference between "I know it's out there, I see it!" and "What did you just send me for; there is nothing out there?". We use a touch go out also. I am working with Nancy and she is having me use a lag screw in a suction cup taped to the floor. Says the lids are way too visual and that it's easier to get rid of a target when you use something vertical versus something on the floor, taking up space. I trust her; just an interesting way to do it and I was curious about other people's experience and how they taught it. Seems some dogs really "get" it and some dogs really don't. I really want my dog to understand "run straight until further notice" not "run to the stanchion".



Oh, I tried Nancy's way  with my dogs it was too scary! They are all very strong retrievers and would yank the lag bolt & suction cup. So that went out of my training bag as well as the article board many people use for articles (similar problem which is why I mention it)  something to watch out for.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

Sunrise said:


> Oh, I tried Nancy's way  with my dogs it was too scary! They are all very strong retrievers and would yank the lag bolt & suction cup. So that went out of my training bag as well as the article board many people use for articles (similar problem which is why I mention it)  something to watch out for.


Ha! I thought about that with the retrieving, but he already has a really strong touch, so it works well for him. I won't lie and say he didn't get excited and open his mouth during a touch once or twice though.  We also duct tape the bolt and suction cup to the ground, so that helps. I don't use the article board and yeah, I've heard about dogs, retrievers especially, picking them up and dragging them along. So far, knock on wood, Wyatt is thinking through the articles and isn't a grabber.


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