# Evidence running is bad for puppies?



## Little Louie (Mar 24, 2011)

I'm reading a lot about running being supposedly bad for puppies, and even some advice that stairs are bad for a puppy (which sounds like an extreme view to me). 

I really dont get it. Yes, I understand that they are growing, growth plates, all that.. but I dont understand the difference between a 6 month old puppy and a 6 year old kid going for a run. Sure, you dont want to take your 6 year old son out running extreme distance, but a mile or two? When I was a kid I ran everywhere and was extremely active. 

Is there evidence that this stuff really hurts puppies or is it just people being overly cautious and repeating what they hear?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think people are largely being cautious. However, it's important to point out the problem in your analogy between kids and dogs. In the first year of life, dogs grow dramatically faster than humans ever do. A six year old kid is growing fast, but a six month old puppy is, proportionally, in a whole other ballpark of growth speed. Add to that the prevalence of joint issues in GRs, and you have a very different situation.

Also, dogs have a naturally different running style than humans. To cover ground quickly, a dog will run and walk instead of establishing a steady pace like a human runner. So on leash running may have the potentially to be substantially harder on the joints than off leash running. Off leash also has the advantage of allowing a pup to show you when he's getting more tired, since he'll do less and less up-and-back.

I say all this as someone who gives his puppies a relatively large amount of exercise. I don't believe in preventing a pup from exercising while he's growing, but I do think that if you force a pup to your pace for substantial distances, force his pace on hard surfaces, or overexercise him, you can probably do damage.

Lastly, it's important to build a pup up to whatever exercise he gets. A pup that hasn't been active yet is much more likely to get hurt on a long walk than a pup who's had reasonable exercise that was increased slowly over time.

So I would never run a growing dog on pavement on a leash at the same time, and I wouldn't run him on pavement off-leash or off pavement on-leash for a significant distance. However, I'd happily take a well-conditioned six-month-old dog on a 4-hour hike with me if he's shown no problems on 1, 2, and 3 hour hikes up to that point.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I think it's a factor if you over do it with your puppy day after day as they grow. Keep in mind it takes 18 years for a human to get to 'full size' and most dogs about a year.

Now, if you take your pup for a 2 mile run one time, vs. every day for months, it's different as far as damage and stress goes. Same as kids, but a human kid you can't really 'make' run that long and they'd stop and say 'my knee hurts' or 'I'm tired' and in most cases you'd stop. Puppies are hard wired to stay with the pack or die, and they are also not as likely to stop if their knee hurts.

I saw one breeder who had four dogs, all spayed, all from different kennels/lines with good clearances behind each dog, all with HD. My guess is she's not limiting their exercise and or there are other factors going on to create that problem in all the dogs. An argument I suppose not to xray for hips but I don't agree.

I know of two HD dogs, one where they did trail rides and long hikes all the time with the pup, and she had mild HD. Another they did lots of hikes (4-5 hours a day walking) plus crappy food, and he had severe HD. 

My own dogs, we don't go crazy either way. I don't keep them crated but I don't take them biking as puppies either. We go for hikes and walks and such and I let them be crazy, but I don't train hard in agility at all. So far, so good.

To me it's just not worth it to put miles on a puppy and create a higher risk of joint issues, since it's really only a year or so they are both able to do a lot and at risk of getting injured long term. By 18 months they should be done growing.


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## Mavrk (Mar 11, 2011)

I will wait for someone else with more knowledge on the subject to chime in, but I can think of one thing worth noting. When people speak of not running your puppy, they don't mean that puppies shouldn't run on their own (as you did as a kid). What they are referring to is "forced" exercise. Puppies certainly run around like crazy in the yard and in the house or even at the park. But as I understand it should not be run on hard pavement as you would probably be doing on your morning run. Actually it might be more about running them on hard surfaces than it is about running. I don't know for sure and will be interested to read what others say.

To follow your analogy, it is not recommended for your 6 year old son to do weight training even though it is okay for them to lift things. Perhaps there is some correlation to this recommendation and the one for running puppies. Like I said, I really don't know and am just throwing this out there as food for thought 

Edit: It looks like some people more knowledgable than me already commented while I was writing this. You have to love this forum!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think a lot of the time you are getting that advice from people who learned the hard way. Maybe they are being over cautious, but there are most definite reasons why people say that repetitive and hard exercise for a puppy is bad. And why letting puppies run up hill, run up and down stairs repeatedly, jump up and off furniture repeated is bad. And also why sudden bursts of prolonged and hard exercise after days or weeks of inactivity even with adult dogs is bad.

Anyway. I posted this picture (partly because I'm in a picture posting mood today), because I wanted to show you the signs of elbow dysplasia. Whether ED is hereditary and present at birth or not, I have no idea. But in the case of our guy he was jumping up on furniture and off and chasing his brother up and down the stairs and right to the day when he first started limping, he had been running up the hill in our backyard with his brother. 

The xrays taken at the time were inconclusive because of all of the inflamation in the joint. A couple years later when we had xrays done again, they were able to see nasty damage to the joint, including (if I remember this right) fragments floating around there. 

This picture was taken around the time when he first started learning how to live with pain. He sat a little different and at least the first two years of his life and as you can see he held his legs straight and locked his elbows to brace against the pain. 

The surgery, had we chosen to do it, would have cost $$$$ and the vets, including the ortho specialist from MSU, warned us that dogs who have the joint replacement surgery generally develop arthritis anyway by the time they are 5. Maybe things have changed since then, but that was a horrible thing to hear considering how active (hyper) he was.

That's why we really were cautious and advise caution when raising a puppy. It probably won't prevent hip or elbow dysplasia, but it should hopefully prevent any further damage while your dog is growing.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Free running on natural ground is NOT bad for puppies. Jogging on concrete for miles is a different story. JMO, but restricting free play and romping on natural surfaces is ridiculous.


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Free running on natural ground is NOT bad for puppies. Jogging on concrete for miles is a different story. JMO, but restricting free play and romping on natural surfaces is ridiculous.


Totally agree. It's the *forced *running, especially on hard pavement, that can cause problems. Same with stairs, I wouldn't sit at the top of the stairs throwing a ball for a puppy to run up & down chasing it. But going up/down stairs a couple of times a day isn't going to do damage.


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## Little Louie (Mar 24, 2011)

So today I ran a short way with Louie. He actually lead the way, as it was a single track trail and I didnt want to force him. When he slowed down we walked, then he wanted to pick it up again. We went at his pace and he really seemed to love it. 

By the way, this dog knows I am alpha, this isnt a concern.


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## Luccagr (Feb 25, 2011)

To tap on this thread, what would you guys do if 

1. Your puppy has not completed his full vaccination
2. You live in an apartment so there's no backyard per se
3. You can't bring him to the park to run cos you're worried he may catch some disease there

Hence how do you ensure he get his adequate dose of small amount of running? Actually this was also a concern to me that running on pavement will cause HD in future. My 15 wk does short amount of running on pavement and does his walk on pavement. The running was done off leash.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

To the OP, the best advice I can give is to go to an off leash area, and stand still or walk around a bit, and allow puppy to do what he wants, move in whatever direction and speed, stop, sit, whatever. He will run ten miles a day for you but...

To Luccagr,
Storee has never been vaccinated. As a puppy we avoided dog traffic 'hot spots' like off leash parks, vet clinics and pet shops; we did go training, to parks and out and about on the street however. She's been fine. The key is to avoid areas where sick dogs or uneducated dogs would be. Off leash parks are bad at any level/age really, too many out of control dogs. Vet clinics are where the sick dogs are taken. Pet stores that sell puppies, well you get the idea. 

I'm sure there are some grassy areas somewhere in your neighborhood that are not off leash dog parks, go there. School parks at night, if you're not bothering anyone and aren't there consistantly or for long aren't usually too bad. Go for a walk down the street and explore, find an outdoor cafe and have coffee and let puppy socialize. 

There is more of a risk of a unsocialized, fearful dog being put down than a pup not making it because of parvo. 



1. Your puppy has not completed his full vaccination
2. You live in an apartment so there's no backyard per se
3. You can't bring him to the park to run cos you're worried he may catch some disease there


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

As others have said it is forced exercise that is problematic. Think of it as akin to the difference between the kid playing at the park who runs around until he gets tired and then takes a nap on the picnic blanket with the family, vs a kid training in hard core competitve gymnastics. The constant impact and wear and tear on joints caused by that intense training often results in arthritis by the time those gymnasts reach their thirties. 
So basically you want your pup to be that kid playing free, not the competitive gymnast!


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## Luccagr (Feb 25, 2011)

Hi Bender,

Thanks for the input. Not to worry, my dog has been pretty well socialized given that we get him to play with our friends' dogs whom we know are healthy. Infact we're starting him on puppy class now just to let him mix around other dogs. He's ok with other dogs and humans... =)


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## bioteach (Nov 13, 2010)

Nugget has never been forced to run, but when he gets the "zoomies" everyone gets out of the way. I've been concerned when he runs from carpet to hardwood to tile making hard turns and sliding into walls. Outside he goes from grass to gravel (where he slips a bit) to brick, etc. Hopefully, he hasn't hurt himself in ways that we cannot yet see.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

There is plenty of evidence that exercise induced injury / long term damage can occur by running puppies. This is far different than free play. And it is not limited to HD, but also to knee, elbow, shoulder, and back problems.
Free play is important, but even that can be overdone. 
I would much rather err on the side of caution, but hey, I'm only a breeder and have only been doing this for about a million years. When I recommend "easy does it" for my puppies, why on earth would anyone take me seriously?

http://www.marithymegoldens.com/dogs_and_exercise.pdf

Dogs In Canada Magazine -- » Easy does it: Puppies and exercise

Orthopedic Problems In Dogs in ThePetCenter.com


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## Little Louie (Mar 24, 2011)

I dont mean any offense to anyone with my questions. I've just found that lots of people believe lots of incorrect things simply because somebody told them so. Is this one of those things? Probably not, but I also wonder how much is too much and to whom? You could probably sit six different breeders down with some coffee and you'd get six different amounts of exercise a puppy should get.


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## Little Louie (Mar 24, 2011)

And again, what is considered a long hike? some people might consider 10 miles long. Some might consider 2 miles long. So if you say "don't take puppy on long hikes" that has a different meaning to everyone. I am positive there is a sweet spot somewhere in between too much and too little exercise and it probably varies from pup to pup. 

I really want the best for my pup. He wont be around forever and I want him to be pain free and in great shape while he is alive.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Little Louie said:


> And again, what is considered a long hike? some people might consider 10 miles long. Some might consider 2 miles long. So if you say "don't take puppy on long hikes" that has a different meaning to everyone. I am positive there is a sweet spot somewhere in between too much and too little exercise and it probably varies from pup to pup.
> 
> I really want the best for my pup. He wont be around forever and I want him to be pain free and in great shape while he is alive.


I agree with much of what you've said. I think the key is to avoid forced exercise and try to set limits for your pup. You need to be extra sensitive to his limits since he may not feel them when he's in working mode (like during a game of fetch), feeling excited, or trying to stay with you.

I had a dog who was so intense when it came to any "work" that he would have enthusiastically killed himself in order to keep fetching. He had heatstroke once, tore his pads up badly twice, and once got a few-inch gash in his leg which fetching in the rain and never even limped until after we got home from the field.

So you do have to set limits. At the same time, I don't think there's any harm in taking a dog on longer and longer hikes (1 mile, 2 mile, 3 mile, etc.) over the course of puppyhood, as long as you're careful.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Are there any studies done?


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## sdain31y (Jul 5, 2010)

Are goldens typically considered "mature" at about 14 months and ready to start endurance training? Also, I've seen that running on asphalt or concrete is bad for the dogs, but other then trails where should they be run? What if the only place to run or walk is the neighborhood sidewalks and road? Should they not be run on these surfaces?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Goldens are not considered mature until 18-24 months. This is why OFA hip and elbow clearances are not done until then. And, why most breeders, and those who compete in various venues do not start road working until then. I don't understand the hurry - again, it may be a case of erring on the side of caution, but I prefer to wait until I know there is no evidence of ortho problems before I start any kind of rigorous training/execise program. My dogs DO get LOTS of free running, as we have acreage, including 2 acres fenced as a dog yard. And they go on "field trips" and swimming. But not on hard surfaces, and it is not constant, sustained gaiting.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Our orthopedic vet says hike, walk off leash and a puppy can do a pretty fair amount, but it is repetitive work on leash that causes problems. Keep in mind that HD and ED will be made worse in some cases, but not created by running and playing. I think a fit 16 week old pup should be able to go for a 2 mile off leash woods walk, with off leash being the key. By walk, I mean a ramble/lollygag, not a powerwalk.


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## turtle66 (Feb 19, 2010)

I tried to look yesterday into the 'evidence' onto google scholar....
There are not a whole lot of studies out there as I could find. There are some smaller studies looking at beagle puppies and running and cartilage development. And all came to the conclusion that cartilage development is delayed with a higher amount of stress to the bones (=running). 
So I agree with all what has been said - but evidence is not a whole lot out there, especially since there are not bigger studies have been made. And then again: The whole medicine doesn't have a lot of evidence of what has been done and how it has been done in huge areas and still it does make sense to do it that way sometimes.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

turtle66 said:


> I tried to look yesterday into the 'evidence' onto google scholar....
> There are not a whole lot of studies out there as I could find. There are some smaller studies looking at beagle puppies and running and cartilage development. And all came to the conclusion that cartilage development is delayed with a higher amount of stress to the bones (=running).
> So I agree with all what has been said - but evidence is not a whole lot out there, especially since there are not bigger studies have been made. And then again: The whole medicine doesn't have a lot of evidence of what has been done and how it has been done in huge areas and still it does make sense to do it that way sometimes.


 
Given some of the ridiculous things that are studied these days, at great cost, I like to think that sometimes simple common sense is enough.


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## Little Louie (Mar 24, 2011)

The problem with common sense is that it can be totally subjective. One might think it is common sense that a god exists. Others would disagree. Yet both think they are right. Obviously the sense isnt very common.

I just want facts, not feelings. Running your puppy for miles every day clearly isnt smart. Not letting them climb stairs because you have heard that they can get HD or ED because of it sounds absurd to me, especially if there are no studies done to reflect the risk.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Little Louie said:


> The problem with common sense is that it can be totally subjective. One might think it is common sense that a god exists. Others would disagree. Yet both think they are right. Obviously the sense isnt very common.
> 
> I just want facts, not feelings. Running your puppy for miles every day clearly isnt smart. Not letting them climb stairs because you have heard that they can get HD or ED because of it sounds absurd to me, especially if there are no studies done to reflect the risk.


Your analogy is interesting, but irrelevant, I think, to this conversation. Trust me, and years and years and YEARS collectively, of solid anecdotal evidence from breeders/exhibitors that this is not just "a feeling". 
Common sense counts for a lot. But, thanks for alerting me to the fact that perhaps I might need to offer more education to puppy buyers to assure that they, too, believe common sense to be meaningful, and won't decide to overdo it with any of the puppies that I have bred.


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## Little Louie (Mar 24, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> Your analogy is interesting, but irrelevant, I think, to this conversation. Trust me, and years and years and YEARS collectively, of solid anecdotal evidence from breeders/exhibitors that this is not just "a feeling".
> Common sense counts for a lot. But, thanks for alerting me to the fact that perhaps I might need to offer more education to puppy buyers to assure that they, too, believe common sense to be meaningful, and won't decide to overdo it with any of the puppies that I have bred.


Thanks for the condescension. I see you're one of those people that think others are idiots if they don't automatically believe everything you say. 

By the way, the definition of anecdotal: *anecdotal evidence* refers both to evidence that is factually unreliable, as well as evidence that may be true but cherry-picked or otherwise unrepresentative of typical cases (thanks wikipedia). You might want to keep that in mind when you say you have solid anecdotal evidence.

Although you obviously feel that I'm not a good parent to my puppy, I am, and I put his welfare as my priority. Along with that means being in good shape, but not overdoing it. I am trying to find that sweet spot, which is why I started this thread to begin with. Thanks for trying to help, I guess.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Little Louie said:


> The problem with common sense is that it can be totally subjective. One might think it is common sense that a god exists. Others would disagree. Yet both think they are right. Obviously the sense isnt very common.
> 
> I just want facts, not feelings. Running your puppy for miles every day clearly isnt smart. Not letting them climb stairs because you have heard that they can get HD or ED because of it sounds absurd to me, especially if there are no studies done to reflect the risk.


I agree wholeheartedly with you here. Common sense is important and great, but it can fall victim to confirmation bias and other basic principles of the way our mind works. A scientific approach can help filter out the psychological noise and give us better answers. 

When it comes to puppy exercise, we tend to look at a young dog with dysplasia and fit his problems into the preexisting framework in our minds of what we already believe. If we believe that exercise causes or induces dysplasia, that dog acts as evidence. If we believe that dysplasia is mostly hereditary, we explain it that way. We do something similar with an older dog with great joints. 

That's where a series of studies can come in and try to measure actual exercise and incidence rates with objective measurements. They don't replace common sense, but they do something that common sense simply can't do.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> I agree wholeheartedly with you here. Common sense is important and great, but it can fall victim to confirmation bias and other basic principles of the way our mind works. A scientific approach can help filter out the psychological noise and give us better answers.
> 
> When it comes to puppy exercise, we tend to look at a young dog with dysplasia and fit his problems into the preexisting framework in our minds of what we already believe. If we believe that exercise causes or induces dysplasia, that dog acts as evidence. If we believe that dysplasia is mostly hereditary, we explain it that way. We do something similar with an older dog with great joints.
> 
> That's where a series of studies can come in and try to measure actual exercise and incidence rates with objective measurements. They don't replace common sense, but they do something that common sense simply can't do.


You know, if both outcomes were equally harmless or harmful, than the approach of wait until the research comes in would make sense, say it was a situation where the outcome would determine the color of the dog's coat, but this is a situation where if you make the wrong decision, your dog may suffer, that is if you over-exercise a puppy and they suffer either a dysplasia or arthritis do to that over-exercising as compared to a no harm occurring if you do not run with you puppy before they are say 18 moths old.

To paraphrase Point Gold, what's the rush?


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## SmileyRiley (Oct 16, 2010)

Thanks to the OP for this question. I am a runner (or maybe more adequately described a slogger). I jog about two miles 5X a week. I would like to take Riley - she just turned one - with me at least sometimes. I am wondering if someone could nail down for me how much jogging would be reasonable for her. I am wondering if I should wait another six months or if I should start with short (1/2 mile) runs now and work up to 2 miles.

So I guess my questions are:

-is it ever okay to jog with your dog
-how much is too much - when you say long distances what do you mean
-how young is too young

She can run on the grass if I stay to the edge of the sidewalk/road. My lab mix jogged with me every day and was in great shape until she was 13 or so and then started to slow down and let me know she was no longer having fun. She was fanatical up to that point and would not let me skip a day even in snow/rain.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

How about xraying Riley for her hip and elbow prelims (that would give you some useful info)? Could she be off leash? What kind of footing?


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## SmileyRiley (Oct 16, 2010)

I am seriously considering x-rays before taking her with me, will probably do so but don't know at what age this would be advisable. 

My run is mostly on concrete, but with grass along the edge the entire way so if I stay on the edge, she would be on grass.


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## Little Louie (Mar 24, 2011)

Selli-Belle said:


> You know, if both outcomes were equally harmless or harmful, than the approach of wait until the research comes in would make sense, say it was a situation where the outcome would determine the color of the dog's coat, but this is a situation where if you make the wrong decision, your dog may suffer, that is if you over-exercise a puppy and they suffer either a dysplasia or arthritis do to that over-exercising as compared to a no harm occurring if you do not run with you puppy before they are say 18 moths old.
> 
> To paraphrase Point Gold, what's the rush?


I agree, there is no rush, except the dog would enjoy it as would I. However, we could discuss the merits of countless things in the same fashion: is 5 years old to early to start riding a bike because children don't have the coordination, and could fall and break bones which could affect the growth of the child? Or do we take calculated risks and allow the child to ride a bike?

Again, no rush, but if you set a date of 18 months and you can run with the dog, then why not set it to 30 months instead for the fully formed bones of 18 months to mature a bit? I mean, where is the science here? Or are we just going off of "common sense"?


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

There is the science of when the growth plates close which is somewhere around 15 months. Lots of people have prelim x-rays done at 18 months to make sure the plates are closed and then start more serious exercise, in my case jumping and weaving for agility.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Little Louie said:


> Thanks for the condescension. I see you're one of those people that think others are idiots if they don't automatically believe everything you say.
> 
> By the way, the definition of anecdotal: *anecdotal evidence* refers both to evidence that is factually unreliable, as well as evidence that may be true but cherry-picked or otherwise unrepresentative of typical cases (thanks wikipedia). You might want to keep that in mind when you say you have solid anecdotal evidence.
> 
> Although you obviously feel that I'm not a good parent to my puppy, I am, and I put his welfare as my priority. Along with that means being in good shape, but not overdoing it. I am trying to find that sweet spot, which is why I started this thread to begin with. Thanks for trying to help, I guess.


 
I'm well aware, thank you, of the definition of anecdotal. And frankly, I don't discount anecdotal evidence when years of it suggests that long term damage can, and does occur from over exercising youngsters (both dogs and humans). I am also not one to think that going up and down stairs will cause HD or ED, and have stated so here before. However, as I also stated, I would prefer to err on the side of caution, and would always suggest the same to puppy owners. 

Not once did I say that you were a bad puppy "parent", nor suggest that you or anyone else is an "idiot". As a breeder, it is my perogative to ask that puppy buyers agree with me when it comes to the care of the puppies that I produce, because I want them to have every advantage for a long and healthy life. If not they don't have to purchase a puppy from me. It works for me, and has worked for those with my puppies.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Selli-Belle said:


> You know, if both outcomes were equally harmless or harmful, than the approach of wait until the research comes in would make sense, say it was a situation where the outcome would determine the color of the dog's coat, but this is a situation where if you make the wrong decision, your dog may suffer, that is if you over-exercise a puppy and they suffer either a dysplasia or arthritis do to that over-exercising as compared to a no harm occurring if you do not run with you puppy before they are say 18 moths old.
> 
> To paraphrase Point Gold, what's the rush?


I think you're arguing against a point I'm not really making. I was saying that a scientific study of the issue would provide invaluable insight that simply can't be obtained through personal experience because of a fundamental issue in the way we process the information we see, not that, in the absence of hard scientific information that we should ignore common sense entirely.

Quite the contrary. Nobody in the thread said to ignore common sense and do whatever you want with a pup. The disagreements, I think, are over two things: the degree of restriction and the reliability of common sense. Too much restriction could be as bad as too much exercise. The trick is finding balance and training a dog slowly towards the level of exercise you want to do with him. And I think a well-executed study would be incredibly helpful in helping us understand that balance, more valuable than common sense and anecdotal evidence.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Little Louie said:


> I agree, there is no rush, except the dog would enjoy it as would I. However, we could discuss the merits of countless things in the same fashion: is 5 years old to early to start riding a bike because children don't have the coordination, and could fall and break bones which could affect the growth of the child? Or do we take calculated risks and allow the child to ride a bike?
> 
> Again, no rush, but if you set a date of 18 months and you can run with the dog, then why not set it to 30 months instead for the fully formed bones of 18 months to mature a bit? I mean, where is the science here? Or are we just going off of "common sense"?


Just FYI, I'd happily run with my pup for reasonable distances before 18 months, and I've done so. I wouldn't do so on pavement or on leash, and I would build slowly up from short walks to long walks to short jogs to longer jogs, etc. I think training a dog slowly towards a goal does more to protect him than limiting his exercise.

Let's not forget that an underexercised dog is prone to injury when he overextends himself, as a driven GR is wont to do.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

I spend a considerable amount of my day scouring for peer-reviewed/scholarly sources on the subject...nothing.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

jackie_hubert said:


> I spend a considerable amount of my day scouring for peer-reviewed/scholarly sources on the subject...nothing.


Yeah. There are a few survey-based pieces of research on injury rates, but I haven't been able to locate a single thing on a relationship between the rates or severity of HD or ED and age and exercise. Most of what I read about dysplasia seems to take it for granted that the condition exists in the formation of the joint and that it isn't caused by exercise. That's not to say that exercise couldn't bring out symptoms of the condition or that too much exercise or exercise too early couldn't worsen it, but most orthopedic research seems to agree that exercise doesn't _cause_ it.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Lots of discussion us based on the relationship btwn weight and joint issues, as we all know.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

jackie_hubert said:


> Lots of discussion us based on the relationship btwn weight and joint issues, as we all know.


Right. The amount of hard science that links weight to health is overwhelming. There's no better protection you can give to your dog's joints than a healthy weight. I'm not sure that can be said too many times.


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## turtle66 (Feb 19, 2010)

Back to evidence and common sense.

Evidence is good.
Most of us remember that not long ago, people with fractures and ruptured/ injured ligaments had to keep them rested for a long time (which is common sense, right? One need to rest to heal...). Large prospective, peer reviewed studies found out that early mobilization will help to heal bones/ligaments and actually will activate the osteoblasts to produce chondroitin etc....

I still agree with Pointgold that more important things have to be studied. 
But still - we have to be careful - may be we will find out in a couple of years that specific exercises are important/useful to devolop strong joints and bones in dogs as they are little puppies...just thinking...

Heike


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## Little Louie (Mar 24, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Right. The amount of hard science that links weight to health is overwhelming. There's no better protection you can give to your dog's joints than a healthy weight. I'm not sure that can be said too many times.


 
Agreed. And I also wonder the same thing: are we putting the cart before the horse when we say that exercise in a young pup leads to problems? Or was there a preexisting problem that just showed itself with exercise? These are the questions I have and would just like to see some studies about it.


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## Little Louie (Mar 24, 2011)

turtle66 said:


> Back to evidence and common sense.
> 
> Evidence is good.
> Most of us remember that not long ago, people with fractures and ruptured/ injured ligaments had to keep them rested for a long time (which is common sense, right? One need to rest to heal...). Large prospective, peer reviewed studies found out that early mobilization will help to heal bones/ligaments and actually will activate the osteoblasts to produce chondroitin etc....
> ...


Thanks turtle66, well put.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Im trying to imagine the heyday the AR groups would have if they knew a study was being performed that was force-running puppies/young dogs and exposing them to repeated xrays to find out how much is too much forced exercise.. YIKES!

If one already existed...Im sure it would have been publicly exploited by AR as inhumane & abusive...


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## Little Louie (Mar 24, 2011)

LibertyME said:


> Im trying to imagine the heyday the AR groups would have if they knew a study was being performed that was force-running puppies/young dogs and exposing them to repeated xrays to find out how much is too much forced exercise.. YIKES!
> 
> If one already existed...Im sure it would have been publicly exploited by AR as inhumane & abusive...


There are scientific ways of testing without rounding up a bunch of puppies and running them until they break but yes, I agree that would be horrible. 

But if there is a proven correlation between a little bit of early exercise (read, not forced running, but short jogs, little longer hikes, etc) it should be fairly easy to see.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

LibertyME said:


> Im trying to imagine the heyday the AR groups would have if they knew a study was being performed that was force-running puppies/young dogs and exposing them to repeated xrays to find out how much is too much forced exercise.. YIKES!
> 
> If one already existed...Im sure it would have been publicly exploited by AR as inhumane & abusive...


Exploited? They'd be right. It would absolutely be inhumane and abusive.

It would have to be survey-based. You look at the exercise, joint x-rays, and clearance history of a group of dogs and try to control for other factors. You'd have to rely on what people were already doing with their dogs, not force dogs through artificially harsh exercise.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Survey based. As in anecdotal evidence?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Survey based. As in anecdotal evidence?


No, not at all. Anecdotal evidence and survey research are pretty much polar opposites.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A primer for those trying to understand survey-based research science and the difference between it and anecdotal evidence:

Wikipedia: Statistical surveys

Wikipedia: Sampling (statistics)

Wikipedia: Anecdotal evidence



> A very helpful selection from the third article:
> 
> In science, anecdotal evidence has been defined as:
> 
> ...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I tend to believe the results that I personally have had over many generations, no matter what that is called. Me not being a scientist or anything, just an ignorant breeder. Nothing credible or valid there.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Is the anti-animal-testing sentiment recent? Because pretty much half the research I came across in the last couple of days had an element of animal cruelty from feeding puppies too much food to see the effects of HD to feeding them Advantage to test how poisonous it'd be...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

jackie_hubert said:


> Is the anti-animal-testing sentiment recent? Because pretty much half the research I came across in the last couple of days had an element of animal cruelty from feeding puppies too much food to see the effects of HD to feeding them Advantage to test how poisonous it'd be...


When a company stands to make a profit (food or pharmaceutical company), I think you see a lot more willingness to engage in behavior I wouldn't consider OK. When there's no profit to be made, as in this case, you typically don't see much research done until it's funded by a nonprofit that cares about quality of life.


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## LilMissSunshine (Jan 23, 2011)

My service dog program doesn't allow puppies to have "regular running or other vigorous exercise routines" before the age of 12 months, like going for jogs or long walks/hikes 

I don't know much about the research behind it, but the way I see it.. better safe than sorry. 
To me, its not much of a loss. There will be plenty of time with the dog is older to go for runs on the sidewalk and things like that. 

There are plenty of puppy safe activities in the mean time. Like play or fetch, walks in the grass, training sessions, or even swimming.. so I'll just stick with those. 
Plus I think these activities (kind of unlike walking, hiking, jogging) are also great one on one bonding activities! 

I also live in an apartment, so I know walks will one day be my dogs major form of exercise. but for now, I will enjoy being creative and using this time to bond in other ways like play and training 
(I live across the street from a HUGE park with a beach and dog park, but for now, we will be using a smaller private area of grass for safety reasons.) 

I would just hate for (god forbid) one day my dog have hip/elbow problems, and to think "what if..." and wish I had been more careful. 

You can't keep your dog 100% safe, I get that, things will happen and everything has risk. but I like to weigh potential risk vs. reward and in this case, I think the risk outweighs. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

See, the thing that gets me is that if a dog is underexercised and then plays fetch, he's at an inflated risk of injury as opposed to a dog who's been building up his exercise slowly. So "better safe than sorry" may not actually describe the situation.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

I for one can't wait to be able to start jogging with my dog. Living in an apartment leash walking is simply not enough for him, even if we walked for 3+ hrs.

An added note here, we do tracking on a regular basis, since Cosmo was 5 months old. Most of our tracks are 1 mile in length and we do about 2-3 tracks a day, about once a week. He runs the majority of time and is on a long-lead. I see that as equivalent to off-leash since it is not forced running.


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## LilMissSunshine (Jan 23, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> See, the thing that gets me is that if a dog is underexercised and then plays fetch, he's at an inflated risk of injury as opposed to a dog who's been building up his exercise slowly. So "better safe than sorry" may not actually describe the situation.


lol I'm not saying to do all this and then at 12 months go out and start running around playing hard core fetch.

Just know your dog, use judgement and build up exercise routines slowly..is what I would do. 

I would never under exercise a dog. I am just limiting the KIND of exercise. So more play in the park on the grass playing games.. than going for jogs in the city for example. 

I'm NOT saying to not let your puppy run or get tired.. I just wouldn't go jogging or running around on sidewalks on leash just yet.

As a runner, I KNOW what those city sidewalks do to knees/ankles lol even with my fancy running shoes, my 3 mile daily run DOES affect me. So personally, I wouldn't be putting that on a puppy.
It doesn't mean we won't be running! just not on my regular forced routine around the city for that long. 

again.. just my 2 cents. What people do with their own dogs is their business


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

OK. This thread makes me wonder if people are confused about what limited exercise means? 

It does not mean keeping your puppy wrapped in bubble wrap and carrying him around everywhere. 

It does not mean never taking your puppy for any walks. 

It does not mean not allowing your dog to run and play in your yard.

I don't even think it means ABSOLUTELY and COMPLETELY keeping the dog off the stairs or tile or wood floors in your house. 

:uhoh:

I'm going out on a limb here, but the way I understood it when I brought Jacks home was it was very important to keep him active and also to provide controlled and regular exercise.

We kept him off stairs until after his first growth streak, because when he was a 7-10 week old puppy, he was too small to easily maneuver the stairs. He had to do a lot of jumping and clambering to get up and down. Whatever that did to his joints, it also upped the chances of him falling down the stairs and getting hurt. 

I also started walking him when he was ten weeks old. This was about a quarter of the block and back. Very short. On leash. Mainly because I wanted to gently toughen up his pads and teach him very early how to walk on leash. 

As he got older and bigger, I gradually started going further with him. The goals I set was half a mile by the time he was 6 months old. 1 mile by the time he was a year old. 2 miles by the time he was 2 years old. And he's now walking at least 3 miles a day with some longer walks mixed in. 

We did absolutely no running until he was 2 years old and I got those xrays. Made no difference, as our regular vet was always convinced we were jogging with him from the looks of Jacks' buff bod. Meanwhile there I was spitting and saying I would NEVER jog a puppy! :

He is now doing a little jogging with me. Mostly when we are out on trails. Our regular walks are on asphalt. No sidewalks over here. We are both road warriors. 

Jacks was active during the day too. Lots of trips outside to play and roughhouse with our other dogs or the cat. That's a lot more exercise than most dogs get while going for strolls with their owners.

He also went swimming with his big brother a few times that first summer in addition to everything else. 

One thing I do have to say though, the time Jacks came closest to having an injury was when he was zooming out on our front lawn when the grass was wet. He slipped and fell down hard and came up limping. I was worried sick that he had dislocated his hip or busted his patella or whatever. We were lucky and nothing came of that, but I imagine that most dogs get the worst injuries while they are zooming in their own yards. 

On leash vs off leash, I would not walk a dog off leash until he is trained to stay with me. I don't know about anyone else's dogs, but there's no such thing as "forced exercise" with a hyperactive young golden. Even Danny with his crunchy hinges wanted to keep going beyond what was wise for him. 

Besides that, walking your dog off leash too early only reinforces his idea that he needs to walk 10 feet ahead of you. With my guys, that leash doesn't come off unless they remain near my side and immediately respond to come if they wander too far ahead. 

Anyway. : I'm just saying that while everyone is telling the OP that they shoud not be running with their dog, that doesn't mean they can't do anything with their dog. Moderation and controlled exercise and care are important. Be aware of what is too much and set goals and you should be OK.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

LilMissSunshine said:


> lol I'm not saying to do all this and then at 12 months go out and start running around playing hard core fetch.
> 
> Just know your dog, use judgement and build up exercise routines slowly..is what I would do.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification. That's pretty much exactly the philosophy I would use with my dogs.


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## LilMissSunshine (Jan 23, 2011)

Oh I see now... 
Let me rephrase...No, I certainly wouldn't go to the extreme of no exercise at all! I think play and exercise is very important to a growing dog/puppy 

When I heard "limited exercise" I thought they were referring to avoiding long forced runs or runs on sidewalks and other very vigorous exercises. 

Again, IMO it comes down to potential risk vs. reward and knowing your dog. 
The risk of future unproven problems... I don't see that as worth not letting my puppy get any exercise or play for those months.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I have to agree, I think exercise for pups is great and my pups were out walking the day we got them and we introduced Selli to the water on the same day. Selli was walking at least a mile by the time she was 4 1/2 months old, the majority of it off-leash. We took the Little Red Dog on a hike the day after we picked him up. He did spend a bit of that hike in our arms.

The only point I am trying to make, like others, that running or biking with your dog, especially on concrete is hard on growing joints and in my opinion should be avoided until the dog's growth plates close.


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## Zazoo (Jul 1, 2011)

:--sad: Ohoh.. I feel reallllllllllyyyyyyy bad now.. I didn't know we weren't suppose to run our puppies.. I was going really slow on my bike and she was light jogging, but we went a long distance.. I really hope I didn't hurt my little girl.. I made her jog on natural ground, but she's just a baby.. I wanna cry now thinking I might have hurt my little girl.. I wish I had known this before.. She still seems to have lots of energy when we go out side for potty.. She wants to play and all.. I won't exercise her anymore until she is a year.. I'm so stupid.. :--sad:


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## harrym (Nov 13, 2010)

When we can't walk, Amber gets a lot of exercise running on a 50-foot lead in our front yard. Our biggest problem with that is the tree in the middle of the yard -- she invariably wraps around it [or around my legs]. But she loves to run there just for the joy of running. Her most vigorous exercise is her zoomies from one end of the house to the other, a distance of about 50 feet that she repeats a dozen or so times at full speed before collapsing in her favorite hideout behind my recliner.


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## Little Louie (Mar 24, 2011)

Louie is about 9 months now and has been running with me a bit.. about 12 miles this week so far, 3 miles a day. When we get back, he wants to play (after he lays down on the first steps in the pool). Before the running though, Louie did a lot of hiking with us (off leash). He has great agility and seems to love his runs. I take him off leash when we get close to the house and he'll sprint the last little bit to the house. I really can't believe that this could be bad for him.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

My Golden Madison said:


> :--sad: Ohoh.. I feel reallllllllllyyyyyyy bad now.. I didn't know we weren't suppose to run our puppies.. I was going really slow on my bike and she was light jogging, but we went a long distance.. I really hope I didn't hurt my little girl.. I made her jog on natural ground, but she's just a baby.. I wanna cry now thinking I might have hurt my little girl.. I wish I had known this before.. She still seems to have lots of energy when we go out side for potty.. She wants to play and all.. I won't exercise her anymore until she is a year.. I'm so stupid.. :--sad:


Exercise is very good for them and required to keep the muscle strong enough to prevent injury to the joints, but as indicated it is "forced" exercise like biking with a dog that is not good. Please keep exercising your dog but sprinting around a field off leash for 10 mins is better than forced running, as that is unnatural for a dog.

Dogs will happily keep up with someone jogging, it doesn't mean it's good for them.


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## berggred (Aug 1, 2011)

Luccagr said:


> To tap on this thread, what would you guys do if
> 
> 1. Your puppy has not completed his full vaccination
> 2. You live in an apartment so there's no backyard per se
> ...



We live in an apartment and have a small grassy play area for kids - and now puppies! We'll bring Shandy outside, stand at opposite ends and play with a tennis ball. We've also taken her for walks around the area where sometimes she runs for a little bit to look at something, then slows down to a walk. I think a small bit of running doesn't hurt but as others mentioned, not a long forced run till they're a bit older. 

Also, I've heard that going up the stairs is not bad for puppies as it's developing muscles in their legs, but it's the going down the stairs that is not as good because, as with humans, it puts a lot of strain on their joints.


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