# Avoid Quivira Golden breeder



## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

So I recently purchased a new puppy from a breeder who insisted that the her pups were "cleared by parentage" when I asked about PRA, Degenerative Myelopathy, Ichthyosis etc. My plan was to possibly breed the dog after he was two and his hips were checked. However, I just did a Pawprint DNA and he came back as a "Carrier" for PRA 2. I'm very disappointed, but have learned that if he is bred with another dog that is "clear", that future breeds down the line will eventually "weed" out this mutation. Do I have the correct information? And more importantly, would any breeder even touch this dog?

Thanks!


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

If this dog is a breeding prospect I'd be more worried about what's in the pedigree if he came from an irresponsible breeder. He may not turn out to be breeding worthy for 100 reasons, he's only a puppy. He needs hips and elbows after 2, eyes annually by an Opthalmologist and heart by a cardiologist. If he's really special, the PRA 2 status shouldn't be an issue if the bitch is clear. However, there's thousands of really great boys out there that are clear so again he'd have to be really special. You'll also have to always verify that any females are actually tested clear; I wouldn't trust clear by parentage.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Assuming the dog is otherwise worthy of being bred, this shouldn't weed him out of all breeding. But likely only "clear" bitches would go to him.

So, the way this works is that there are two alleles for for each gene location. In the case of PRA it is a simple recessive. So if you breed your boy to a clear girl, there is a statistical probability that some of the puppies will get the PRA allele and be carriers, and others will get the clear allele and be clear, but absolutely none of them will be affected. Every time one of the carrier pups is bred, the chance of passing on that PRA allele exists, and it can keep going, generation after generation. The only way to eradicate it from the line completely is to only breed dogs with both alleles clear.

Does that help?


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Thanks! I figured as much  He will still be a great companion dog. I just wish I had taken some more time to research and push for paperwork instead of being "trusting". Lesson learned, but a joy was earned!


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

I actually signed up at k9data.com and created a "pedigree" based on the information that the breeder gave me by phone. Here is the link:
Pedigree: Quivira Golden's Maximus 

Had he been totally clear, I would have went ahead and done the OFAs, eyes, hips, etc when he reached two.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Oh boy!:frown2:

You do realize all the health certifications are missing on his parent if what you have is right?

Sorry that this doesn’t seem to indicate what your were hoping for and probably thought you were getting.


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## Peri29 (Aug 5, 2017)

gsk8 said:


> Thanks! I figured as much  He will still be a great companion dog. I just wish I had taken some more time to research and push for paperwork instead of being "trusting". Lesson learned, but a joy was earned!


Well I am already jeleous of you and if this cutie would be mine, wouldn't breed at all. One of a kind !!!! So handsome, so picturesque0


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

gsk8 said:


> I actually signed up at k9data.com and created a "pedigree" based on the information that the breeder gave me by phone. Here is the link:
> Pedigree: Quivira Golden's Maximus
> 
> Had he been totally clear, I would have went ahead and done the OFAs, eyes, hips, etc when he reached two.


there is no bitch by the name Quivira Golden's Chico (and Chico is a male name so kinda odd) *his dam* on AKC or OFA. ..and the sire has no clearances at all. I don't see your dog by that name on AKC either. 

Paula, since you have the ear of the breeder, if you do not have your pup's AKC paperwork please ask for AKC # of the dam and either let someone know or correct what's on k9data. It's the record- it needs to be right. And I am sure if she sold you a full reg puppy, the dam IS AKC registered, there's just an error on k9data that needs correcting. 
If you DO have the AKC reg paperwork please put MAx's AKC# in there (it is on the top right and will start with SS and end w 0_) and input his dam's AKC number and check the spelling and punctuation on her name. What's there now is not right. 
PRA2 least of the worries,imo. I'd do OFAs [email protected] 2, so that you know if there is anything to anticipate or worry about. And send them in. You don't have to be able to make money on a dog to make clearances worthwhile... None of this breeder's dogs appear to have a full set of clearances, and it's obvious she sells puppies on full registration without knowing if they are worth breeding, since you have one you planned to breed. .very sad to me.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I went to the Quivira Goldens FB page hoping to find Chico's AKC name because I am a k9data freak and need to know it is right and not dependent on someone else spelling correctly, etc... 
oddly they advertise a Chico X Winston litter going home June 22 2019, and a Chico X Ike litter going home July 10. 
This makes zero sense. 
Aspen X Winston and Holly X Winston both Feb 2019- and no dogs on their website @ all but Winston. 

The breeder just doesn't know proper way to list a sireXdam. Male name aLWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS goes first. It just makes life confusing, especially when one has a bitch with a male name (as in Chico, above). 

With the multiple numbers of litters coming @ weird times (not the same time) from Chico, according to FB, that can't be a dual sire litter- they aren't born @ two diff times- maybe breeder made mistake on whose puppies are whose on FB but who doesn't know who the dam is?
Spidey senses going here...


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I'm guessing these aren't AKC registered puppies as a search on AKC shows only 12 registered goldens carrying the Quivira prefix and the breeder's website does not state they're selling AKC registrable puppies. So if the OP was looking to breed, there are much bigger problems than just being a carrier for PRA. I would still encourage anyone willing to do clearances to do them regardless if being bred or not--adds another data point to the overall health of the breed. 

SR97214802	Quivira Golden's Boot Scootin'
SR95057202	Quivira Golden's Chloe By Dillon
SS01096603	Quivira Golden's Eisenhower
SR72907009	Quivira Golden's Jj
SR80493204	Quivira Golden's Simply Saddie
SR86787303	Quivira Goldens Sir Winston
SR85965505	Quivira Goldens Southern Dixie
SR85965507	Quivira Goldens Sweet Delta
SS01533901	Quivira Goldstar Miss Honeycutt
SR94843307	Quivira's Camden
SR74293402	Quivira's Denver
SR94843306	Quivira's I'M Rowdy


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Prism Goldens said:


> Paula, since you have the ear of the breeder, if you do not have your pup's AKC paperwork please ask for AKC # of the dam and either let someone know or correct what's on k9data. It's the record- it needs to be right. And I am sure if she sold you a full reg puppy, the dam IS AKC registered, there's just an error on k9data that needs correcting.
> If you DO have the AKC reg paperwork please put MAx's AKC# in there (it is on the top right and will start with SS and end w 0_) and input his dam's AKC number and check the spelling and punctuation on her name. What's there now is not right.


Unfortunately, she will not respond to my requests for the paperwork, AKC number etc. I've sent texts, emails, etc.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

gsk8 said:


> Unfortunately, she will not respond to my requests for the paperwork, AKC number etc. I've sent texts, emails, etc.


That is very dis but not unexpected when a breeder is clearly not ethical. :frown2:

Do you have any documentation from here that states you will receive AKC registration? If I were you (and I had documentation) I would try text and emails for a bit, then I would send a certified mail request, after that I’d look in to small claims court.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

LJack said:


> That is very dis but not unexpected when a breeder is clearly not ethical. :frown2:
> 
> Do you have any documentation from here that states you will receive AKC registration? If I were you (and I had documentation) I would try text and emails for a bit, then I would send a certified mail request, after that I’d look in to small claims court.


Also (and from my standpoint, just to TEACH HER A LESSON) IF you have anything stating reg names of sire/dam and that the litter will be sold AKC, AKC WILL give you registration- they'll first try to get her to do it but if she won't they will do it. All this and you were wanting to breed this dog? I don't get that at all. It's so wrong to perpetuate a line that's clearly unsafe. I hope if you get papers, you do not do the wrong thing with them.
The info you put into k9data is either incorrect or the dam is not registered.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

It's too bad this breeder is being so unresponsive. If you haven't purchased insurance to help with vet bills you might want to since his health clearances may be lacking. He may be just fine but it can really help if there were any hip or elbow issues.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Paula, you've received input from a few of our most knowledgeable members here. I am a vote for teaching the breeder a lesson. 

This has nothing to do with your dog (he has a beautiful expression on his face and is clearly well loved by you) and everything to do with this breeder taking advantage of puppy buyers who aren't aware of the ethics. What a despicable human she is. I'd love to have you at least fight back and let her see that she can't treat everyone like this.

Regardless of what happens, please be aware that there is a higher risk of Max having joint problems, mostly elbow but possibly hips as well. Breeders who aren't using information from hip and elbow clearances to decide what dogs to breed and what sires would be best for each litter are at an exponentially higher risk of producing puppies with joint problems. The best thing you can do for Max is to be extremely committed to keeping him at a very lean weight (to the point that you have people asking why your dog is so thin, most people aren't accustomed to seeing Goldens at a lean weight) He can have normal exercise, running and retrieving and swimming - but be careful about jumping and high impact activities or forced, on leash running especially over pavement. 

Discuss body condition with your vet, let her know your concerns and then ask for their direction on assessing proper weight and keeping him lean. You can do a google search for the purina chart for canine body condition scores. He will have the best chances at a longer healthier life if you keep him lean, starting now.

Strongly second CWag's recommendation on the health insurance. I'd get it TODAY and keep it for at least 2 or 3 years till you're sure that he's free from joint issues. Surgery to repair a bad elbow is going to run over $3k per joint if he has elbow dysplasia. It's nice to know you have coverage if you should need it.


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Prism Goldens said:


> Also (and from my standpoint, just to TEACH HER A LESSON) IF you have anything stating reg names of sire/dam and that the litter will be sold AKC, AKC WILL give you registration- they'll first try to get her to do it but if she won't they will do it. All this and you were wanting to breed this dog? I don't get that at all. It's so wrong to perpetuate a line that's clearly unsafe. I hope if you get papers, you do not do the wrong thing with them.
> The info you put into k9data is either incorrect or the dam is not registered.


Unfortunately, most of our conversation took place by phone. Very nice lady and she picked up every single time before I got the dog. I was toying with the idea of breeding him because I lost another pet that I wish I had "collected" from. I really didn't want to be a "breeder" per se. She was ok with this, stating that she would just "want first pick of the litter" and that the contract would be later modified to reflect this. Upon picking up the dog and returning home, I tried corresponding her with the breeding issue, but she then took a totally different stance, saying more money would be involved and mentioning "breeding rights." At that point, I tried calling her so that we could have a discussion. I emailed her that I was very confused between "breeding" and "breeding rights". Emails, texts, and calls then just went unanswered. 

After I did Pawprint, I notified her by email that he was a carrier. See below:



> Hi Natalie,
> 
> I’ve been trying to reach you by phone, email, and next to no avail. I hope that you are ok. Things have been crazy for us and we just lost our beloved Maya (13) to brain cancer yesterday. Two dogs in a matter of two months is a lot to bear. She lived longer than expected, but it still came as a shock as the symptoms were sudden and she passed within 5 days.
> 
> ...


Her response:



> We are of course terribly saddened to hear of your loss.
> Obviously you will not want breeding rights on the pup. Per our contract we do not cover PRA as it is not a life threatening disease. Not sure what else we need to cover.
> Thanks
> Natalie


I've since sent her an email, text, and FB PM requesting the AKC #, but no response. I have no plans to breed this dog. That would be unethical. I'm just going to give him oodles of love, discipline, and exercise and make sure he's a very happy dog!



cwag said:


> It's too bad this breeder is being so unresponsive. If you haven't purchased insurance to help with vet bills you might want to since his health clearances may be lacking. He may be just fine but it can really help if there were any hip or elbow issues.





nolefan said:


> Paula, you've received input from a few of our most knowledgeable members here. I am a vote for teaching the breeder a lesson.
> 
> This has nothing to do with your dog (he has a beautiful expression on his face and is clearly well loved by you) and everything to do with this breeder taking advantage of puppy buyers who aren't aware of the ethics. What a despicable human she is. I'd love to have you at least fight back and let her see that she can't treat everyone like this.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much! I will definitely be looking into the insurance!



LJack said:


> That is very dis but not unexpected when a breeder is clearly not ethical. :frown2:
> 
> Do you have any documentation from here that states you will receive AKC registration? If I were you (and I had documentation) I would try text and emails for a bit, then I would send a certified mail request, after that I’d look in to small claims court.


I'm not even sure it's worth it at this point. I put the info into k9data because I think it's important that the PRA issue is made public to potential breeders down the line.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

but the thing is, when the dam's name isn't right, it doesn't really put that out there for potential breeders.. 

So- your contract- how is your dog identified? ____out of ___ by ___? or by a number?


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Prism Goldens said:


> but the thing is, when the dam's name isn't right, it doesn't really put that out there for potential breeders..
> 
> So- your contract- how is your dog identified? ____out of ___ by ___? or by a number?


Hi!

The contract states that the dam is "Quiviria Golden's She is Chico" and the sire is "Quivira Golden's Eisenhower"

I added the dam so that Max would have a known "mother" in the pedigree. The sire was already there.

There is a microchip stamp on the contract, but no AKC info.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Here are the AKC registered dogs with that prefix-

SR97214802	Quivira Golden's Boot Scootin'
Golden Retriever
SR95057202	Quivira Golden's Chloe By Dillon
Golden Retriever
SS01096603	Quivira Golden's Eisenhower
Golden Retriever
SR72907009	Quivira Golden's Jj
Golden Retriever
SR80493204	Quivira Golden's Simply Saddie
Golden Retriever
SR86787303	Quivira Goldens Sir Winston
Golden Retriever
SR85965505	Quivira Goldens Southern Dixie
Golden Retriever
SR85965507	Quivira Goldens Sweet Delta
Golden Retriever

So-either that name was wrong, or she is not registered. I suspect (since there are only 2 on OFA w that prefix and none under just partial name 'she is chico' on either AKC or OFA) that you've been hoodwinked. You still might have recourse w AKC, if the names were on a contract... or if she put in the contract something that implied registration such as 'limited registration' ...


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Hmmm....the contract states "The puppy is sold with limited registration through AKC and is sold without breeding rights." However, the latter was supposed to have been modified, but that was explained above.

If the dam is registered, she just wasn't put on the database by the breeder...


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

gsk8 said:


> Hmmm....the contract states "The puppy is sold with limited registration through AKC and is sold without breeding rights." However, the latter was supposed to have been modified, but that was explained above.
> 
> If the dam is registered, she just wasn't put on the database by the breeder...


Both Robin & I queried the AKC breeder's reports available via the AKC store, there is no AKC registered dog with the name you provided for Max's mom. This isn't something the breeder enters, if a dog is registered w/ AKC you can find them by name or registration number.


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Interesting! Which site is this?


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

AKC.org --> Shop --> Breeder Reports --> Four Generation Research Pedigree $20 radial button --> next --> find a dog from there you can enter the registration # if known or the breed & registered name. You do not have to pay $ unless you continue through the process of selecting a particular dog & purchasing the pedigree. For my search I typed in Quivira for the registered name & of course selected golden retriever for the breed. A list was produced for all dogs registered w/ Quivira, there was no Chico.

If the breeder is now ignoring your individual messages, can you post to the Quivira golden page for golden owners? Would be curious if anyone else was able to register their puppy.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Other thing is they might have had a typo with the mom's name when they registered her and didn't realize or correct it. Best way to look her up is get the registration #.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

gsk8 said:


> Hmmm....the contract states "The puppy is sold with limited registration through AKC and is sold without breeding rights." However, the latter was supposed to have been modified, but that was explained above.
> 
> If the dam is registered, she just wasn't put on the database by the breeder...


Not up to the breeder- if she is registered, she would have been on AKC. She's not. I tried all the permutations I could think of someone mistakenly spelling, nothing. 
IF you call AKC, and tell them you cannot get papers from her (even limited) THEY can look up by HER NAME and figure it out- we just don't have access to her records.


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Thank you all very much! I will do just that! So if the dam is not registered, does that mean that I did not get an "AKC" pup?


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

SheetsSM said:


> AKC.org --> Shop --> Breeder Reports --> Four Generation Research Pedigree $20 radial button --> next --> find a dog from there you can enter the registration # if known or the breed & registered name. You do not have to pay $ unless you continue through the process of selecting a particular dog & purchasing the pedigree. For my search I typed in Quivira for the registered name & of course selected golden retriever for the breed. A list was produced for all dogs registered w/ Quivira, there was no Chico.
> 
> If the breeder is now ignoring your individual messages, can you post to the Quivira golden page for golden owners? Would be curious if anyone else was able to register their puppy.


Which page should I post to? You mean the "public" FB page? I'm sure she'd delete that


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

gsk8 said:


> Thank you all very much! I will do just that! So if the dam is not registered, does that mean that I did not get an "AKC" pup?


Sorry if the dam isn’t registered, the pup cannot either. But you can get an PAL registration from AKC which will allow you to compete in some venues. To get a PAL registration you’ll need to have your dog spayed or neutered, send in photos and then it can get a PAL number. You can enter things like obedience trials. 

Please have fun with your pup. I’m sorry this happened to you.


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## mzilke (May 4, 2019)

he's beautiful


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

This is really frustrating. The breeder will not respond to any phone calls, emails, etc when asking for the dam's AKC #......


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

gsk8 said:


> This is really frustrating. The breeder will not respond to any phone calls, emails, etc when asking for the dam's AKC #......


I'm so sorry, but after everything you've told us, I never expected she would speak to you again. She has scammed you and the best you can do is try to spread the word about her to save others from being scammed. Did you ever send registered mail to her?


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

gsk8 said:


> .... So if the dam is not registered, does that mean that I did not get an "AKC" pup?


No, if the dam isn't registered with the AKC, the puppy is not eligible either as it stands.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

If the dam was on a limited registration she wasn't supposed to breed her in the 1st place. There is always the possibility she is not responding as she doesn't want her breeder to know she did this. Either way, if mom had a limited registration or none at all you cannot register the puppies. Nolefan is right, you got scammed big time and so sorry.
I hope people read this post, so many come to the forum looking for advice then think we are terrible by telling people to find a reputable breeder. Ok folks, this is one of the reasons ... beside wanting to see breeders that do OFA clearances, we feel so strongly about finding a good breeder!


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

nolefan said:


> I'm so sorry, but after everything you've told us, I never expected she would speak to you again. She has scammed you and the best you can do is try to spread the word about her to save others from being scammed. Did you ever send registered mail to her?


Not yet. Not sure how that would help?



nolefan said:


> No, if the dam isn't registered with the AKC, the puppy is not eligible either as it stands.


Thanks!



puddles everywhere said:


> If the dam was on a limited registration she wasn't supposed to breed her in the 1st place. There is always the possibility she is not responding as she doesn't want her breeder to know she did this. Either way, if mom had a limited registration or none at all you cannot register the puppies. Nolefan is right, you got scammed big time and so sorry.
> I hope people read this post, so many come to the forum looking for advice then think we are terrible by telling people to find a reputable breeder. Ok folks, this is one of the reasons ... beside wanting to see breeders that do OFA clearances, we feel so strongly about finding a good breeder!


Thanks everyone! I have learned a good lesson and I hope others will learn from my mistakes. :|


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

We all make mistakes and you don't know what you don't know. The good news is you still have a beautiful boy and a great companion. You've learned a lot and who knows maybe in the future you will get a chance to better the breed with another dog. There is a Golden Retriever breeder near me who's first dog was not from a good breeder at all. I think maybe from teenager selling Golden puppies from a roadside truck. She now breeds great dogs and follows the GRCA Code of Ethics and competes with her dogs. I wish you many years of love, fun, and good health with your boy.


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

I wrote the GRCA and AKC a letter. I hear back from GRCA immediately:



> There appear to be a lot of different issues going on here.
> 
> 1st. The breeder is not a member of the Golden Retrieve Club of America
> 
> ...


So should I ever purchase another golden, I will make sure I first find one that is a member of the GRCA!


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Prism Goldens said:


> I went to the Quivira Goldens FB page hoping to find Chico's AKC name because I am a k9data freak and need to know it is right and not dependent on someone else spelling correctly, etc...





LJack said:


> That is very dis but not unexpected when a breeder is clearly not ethical. :frown2:





SheetsSM said:


> Both Robin & I queried the AKC breeder's reports available via the AKC store, there is no AKC registered dog with the name you provided for Max's mom.





nolefan said:


> No, if the dam isn't registered with the AKC, the puppy is not eligible either as it stands.





puddles everywhere said:


> If the dam was on a limited registration she wasn't supposed to breed her in the 1st place.





cwag said:


> We all make mistakes and you don't know what you don't know.


Thanks all once again! Here is a copy of the contract. I just assumed the puppy was AKC registered. Wish I knew what I could do to get the word out to prospective buyers in a professional manner.:nerd:


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

What documentation did she give you where on the lineage of the dam of the litter? Did she have a copy of a pedigree? Have you contacted AKC to state you were provided a contract stating AKC limited registration but the breeder is refusing to allow you to register? Based on what Robin posted previously, they (AKC) would be able to look up the breeder's dogs and see what's up. I would DNA testing to confirm parentage which would also throw a wrench into their ability to sell AKC registered puppies...sometimes hitting these people in their pocketbook is the only way to get them to sit up & take notice.

Also, you might try reaching out to the breeder of Chico and see if she has info on a bitch she sold to the breeder. Perhaps the name is messed up. I think it's pretty despicable of this breeder to prey on a veteran (or any puppy buyer for that matter) but to be a breeder that "donates" dogs to an organization to train for veterans and then turn around & lie/deceive a veteran is horrid. If it were me, I wouldn't let it drop. I'd be all over the public FB page and it appears there is a secret FB group for owners of Quivira puppies asking about the registration.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

That is a truly terrible puppy contract. I would take her to small claims court and seek return of the $1000 (but keeping the puppy) due to fraud in the inducement. She induced you to purchase the puppy based on her false representation that for $1000 she was selling you AKC limited registration, as set forth in paragraph 3. At the time of selling, she either knew that representation was false or acted with reckless disregard for the truth or falsity of the representation. By including it in the contract and making the misrepresentation she clearly intended you to rely on it, and you did reasonably rely on it. You have been damaged by the misrepresentation in that you cannot register your pure breed dog with the AKC. Such an act of fraud and intentional misrepresentation should in most states allow you to recover the full purchase price plus consequential, compensatory and punitive damages. And in some states you can also recover your costs and attorneys fees (if any).

You'll have to go there with all the proof you have, including your efforts with the breeder and all the efforts by people here. You need that to make a _prima facia_ case, which is what you'll need to win the lawsuit. You have to show by a preponderance of the evidence (or in some states clear and convincing evidence) that she misrepresented the puppy's ability to be registered with the AKC, and that such registration was a material part of your bargain (and clearly it was, because you wouldn't pay $1000 for a dog without papers, essentially rendering it a "mutt" as the AKC registration itself is proof that it is a pure breed dog). So you'll have to show that you tried to register the dog, and that at least one of its parents has no record of AKC registration, nor did the breeder cooperate to provide you proof that the puppy was registerable (just made that word up, I think).

If you go to small claims court and she shows up with proof that the puppy is able to be registered with the AKC, you'll lose the lawsuit but be able to register the puppy, which was the benefit of the bargain you made with her. A win for you!

If you go to small claims court and she does not show up with proof that the puppy is able to be registered with the AKC, you'll win the lawsuit and get money, but you still won't have a puppy you can register. Still a win.

Either way, it's a win for you.

At this point, that's what I'd do. If the puppy can be registered, this will force the breeder's hand.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I would love to see you take Dana's suggestion and give this breeder some consequences.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

it's a word- registrable. (ˈrɛdʒɪstrəbəl) adj. capable of being registered. Also (less commonly): registerable.

Dana is the lawyer so follow her advice. I'm all for making her sorry she lied. 
She's being super generous with her advice.... 

For the AKC piece of it- you can go to the AKC store, then to products and services then on the left under products, click breeder reports or click points and title progression- and there you input the dog's name and breed (since you have noAKC #) and if nothing comes up, the dog is not registered under that name. Nothing will come up. 
I seriously spent about 40 minutes trying all manner of spelling, punctuation, etc.. nothing. 
That's not her name. I dk how you'd find out who sold her to this breeder.


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

DanaRuns said:


> That is a truly terrible puppy contract.


Thank you so very much for taking the time to assist me! So very appreciated! 

I live in NC and she's in KS. So that means I need to go there I guess....Do I pick the courthouse closest to her or can I pick one near the airport :grin2:


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I second taking Dana's advice about filing a court case. I'm so sorry this happened to you, and it is maddening for us on this board who have been so generously educated by board members like DanaRuns and Prism, and others, about the right way a breeder should do things.

Good luck, let us know if you get anywhere!


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Alaska7133 said:


> Sorry if the dam isn’t registered, the pup cannot either. But you can get an PAL registration from AKC which will allow you to compete in some venues. To get a PAL registration you’ll need to have your dog spayed or neutered, send in photos and then it can get a PAL number. You can enter things like obedience trials.
> 
> Please have fun with your pup. I’m sorry this happened to you.





Prism Goldens said:


> Not up to the breeder- if she is registered, she would have been on AKC. She's not. I tried all the permutations I could think of someone mistakenly spelling, nothing.
> IF you call AKC, and tell them you cannot get papers from her (even limited) THEY can look up by HER NAME and figure it out- we just don't have access to her records.





SheetsSM said:


> AKC.org --> Shop --> Breeder Reports --> Four Generation Research Pedigree $20 radial button --> next --> find a dog from there you can enter the registration # if known or the breed & registered name. You do not have to pay $ unless you continue through the process of selecting a particular dog & purchasing the pedigree. For my search I typed in Quivira for the registered name & of course selected golden retriever for the breed. A list was produced for all dogs registered w/ Quivira, there was no Chico.
> 
> If the breeder is now ignoring your individual messages, can you post to the Quivira golden page for golden owners? Would be curious if anyone else was able to register their puppy.





SheetsSM said:


> Both Robin & I queried the AKC breeder's reports available via the AKC store, there is no AKC registered dog with the name you provided for Max's mom. This isn't something the breeder enters, if a dog is registered w/ AKC you can find them by name or registration number.


Hi all! Just a quick follow-up! I would also like to thank all of you on this thread for assisting (and teaching) me 

I did report the breeder to AKC which was a process in of itself. Apparently she would not respond to them either. Here was their final response to me:



> Thank you for your correspondence. The AKC does not license, register, or endorse breeders. Nor do we have control over their business practices. We are strictly a registry service that tracks the lineage of dogs. You may wish to file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, Kansas’ Consumer Protection Division (800-432-2310) or seek resolution through civil channels.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Nancy Garriss
> AKC Customer Registration Support


Further, when reviewing her FB page, it appears she bred the same dam twice last year. Of course I don't know anything about breeding, but she wasn't even two-years-yet.

I looked up the name, but can't find an actual "business" so I don't think I can go to Consumer Complaints as the AKC recommended. And "civil channels" were already tried.

I feel for any new unknowing potential owners....


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I would touch base again w AKC. Your contract says you have limited registration (〉The puppy is sold to Buyer and Buyer purchases and a∞ePtS the puppy in ’’as is“l condition. The puppy is sold w軸Iimited regist「ation
蛤「Ough AKC and js soId without b「eeding rights. The SelIer makes no gua「antee of wa「ranties, eXPreSS Or impIied, ∞ncerning the heaith
of t)

and you do not have that paperwork. 
The thing w them, sometimes if you get a different 'helper' they will know a different way to get what you need.
edit: WEIRD! I copy pasted from the contract and got all ^ strange symbols!

I also would still do a BBB and a rip off report ...


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## OscarsDad (Dec 20, 2017)

gsk8 said:


> Thank you so very much for taking the time to assist me! So very appreciated!
> 
> I live in NC and she's in KS. So that means I need to go there I guess....Do I pick the courthouse closest to her or can I pick one near the airport :grin2:


You will need to file in the jurisdiction where the breeder is located.


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## ambermclaughlin687 (Apr 11, 2020)

C


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

What are you adding here AmberMcLaughlin 687?


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I had a notification come through that she put down a deposit on a Aussie doodle and has yet to receive video of the puppies or pictures of the parents


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

More evidence of this not being an ethical breeder. thanks.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I missed this thread and I have only read a few of the first posts so far but after seeing a pic of your pup and how light it was my first thought was if they advertised that they breed for color variants? Then I followed your K(Data page and saw their link and on the main page they state they breed dark, medium and light colored Golden's. 

Before reading any further, that would have been a red flag to me.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

As I am reading the post, I still don't understand why people buy puppies and don't get the AKC paperwork at the time you pick up the puppy? I see this sooo many times and it never ends well. I wouldn't buy a pup froma breeder that would hold the AKC paperwork until spay.neuter either. They are on limited registration anyway.


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> As I am reading the post, I still don't understand why people buy puppies and don't get the AKC paperwork at the time you pick up the puppy? I see this sooo many times and it never ends well. I wouldn't buy a pup froma breeder that would hold the AKC paperwork until spay.neuter either. They are on limited registration anyway.


I wasn't very knowledgeable about the process until _after_ the mistake was made. I have learned thanks to many other posters on this thread.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

gsk8 said:


> I wasn't very knowledgeable about the process until _after_ the mistake was made. I have learned thanks to many other posters on this thread.


It was a general statement, not specifically towards you . It's something that happens far to often. Buying an AKC puppy I would expect to get those papers day one, bit there's enough people that doesn't realize this that it should come with the puppy.


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

I have contacted other people through FB that also received a pup from the same litter, but I'm not getting many responses. One didn't really care about the AKC....


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Just a quick update that last month I finally received the AKC number for the dam "She is Chico". This is one year after getting the puppy and asking for this info with no response I was contacted by two other people who went through the same exact situation as I did with this breeder. Initially, the breeder promised me that I would get OFCs and X-rays on the dam, but that of course never happened.

Unfortunately, after doing some light research, I found that Natalie Schwartz continues to breed both dogs _after_ I told her that my pup tested positive as a carrier for PRA! It's a shame that more dogs are being bred from one or more parents that are not "clear". Incidentally, it appears I was "booted" from Quivira's Facebook group (which is private) when I looked today. Guess they don't want prospective buyers knowing the nitty gritty.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

So the reg number on k9data for Chico brings up this bitch " Sff Chico of Quivira Goldens" and I changed k9data to reflect that- but I wonder Paula if you purchased the research pedigree if you'd PM it to me? There are other numbers not showing on k9data such as the stud book dates that are valuable to the researcher. And if you didn't purchase the research pedigree, where did you get the name input to k9data?


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

gsk8 said:


> Unfortunately, after doing some light research, I found that Natalie Schwartz continues to breed both dogs _after_ I told her that my pup tested positive as a carrier for PRA! It's a shame that more dogs are being bred from one or more parents that are not "clear".


There is no reason to not breed a carrier of PRA, or any of the types of PRA. Carrier should not be bred to carrier, so they couldn't have an affected. That's the only reason to not breed a carrier. Otherwise breed a carrier all you want to a clear. Not sure why you think the dog shouldn't be bred for being a carrier. Even if the dog was affected, they could still be bred to a clear, and their pups would still all just be carriers.


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Prism Goldens said:


> So the reg number on k9data for Chico brings up this bitch " Sff Chico of Quivira Goldens" and I changed k9data to reflect that- but I wonder Paula if you purchased the research pedigree if you'd PM it to me? There are other numbers not showing on k9data such as the stud book dates that are valuable to the researcher. And if you didn't purchase the research pedigree, where did you get the name input to k9data?


Sure! I just sent you what I have


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

So what that application tells me is any prior litters from either Ike or Chico were not AKC registered. Both have 9-20 SB dates. Your litter was born in 2019, so she obviously decided to get around to registering the litter THIS year. Good for you. I hope she had to pay a fine to register the litter.


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Alaska7133 said:


> There is no reason to not breed a carrier of PRA, or any of the types of PRA. Carrier should not be bred to carrier, so they couldn't have an affected. That's the only reason to not breed a carrier. Otherwise breed a carrier all you want to a clear. Not sure why you think the dog shouldn't be bred for being a carrier. Even if the dog was affected, they could still be bred to a clear, and their pups would still all just be carriers.


My understanding of "bettering a breed" is that the ultimate goal is to eradicate bad genes. What you said makes sense, but I don't believe the breeder I dealt with is concerned about that.

I had initially told her I wanted to have a pup from him, and when I sent her the DNA test results, here exact response was: "_Obviously you will not want breeding rights on the pup. Per our contract we do not cover PRA as it is not a life threatening disease. Not sure what else we need to cover._"

I had him fixed just to be on the safe side.


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Prism Goldens said:


> She obviously decided to get around to registering the litter THIS year. Good for you. I hope she had to pay a fine to register the litter.


That was indeed the case. She had at least three people, including the two who had contacted me, requesting that info for a year!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

The thing about deleterious genes like the PRA gene is when you cut out all the carriers you cut out the good genes the dog with the PRA gene has as well as the PRA gene. So, in not using carriers, it is possible to reduce all the genes in the population. Carrier breedings are fine if the trait is recessive, as long as it's to a clear dog.


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

gsk8 said:


> I actually signed up at k9data.com and created a "pedigree" based on the information that the breeder gave me by phone. Here is the link:
> Pedigree: Quivira Golden's Maximus


It appears that the k9data link was removed right after I posted several days ago. Interesting. I have asked someone in private to assist as my dog is registered.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

gsk8 said:


> It appears that the k9data link was removed right after I posted several days ago. Interesting. I have asked someone in private to assist as my dog is registered.


He's still in K9Data. The link you posted is not working, but this is the URL to his page:

Pedigree: Quivira Golden's Maximus (k9data.com)


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

mylissyk said:


> He's still in K9Data. The link you posted is not working, but this is the URL to his page:
> 
> Pedigree: Quivira Golden's Maximus (k9data.com)


It was put back


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

gsk8 said:


> It was put back


 If it was taken down and put back, that's why her original link was not working.


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Due to my line of work, I have "alerts" sent to me when certain links are changed or removed. I had my pup's link added 8 months ago just in case more info was added. Imagine my surprise when the link disappeared the same day on k9data that I did my follow-up post above a few days ago. 

So yes, it's back, albeit on a different link _without_ the Pawprint report which I just now added back.

I just added a screenshot for references in case it changes again.

I noted the breeder has changed since I purchased the pet. Last name is the same, but don't know who she is. I do know that "Chico" wasn't even registered until recently.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

gsk8 said:


> Due to my line of work, I have "alerts" sent to me when certain links are changed or removed. I had my pup's link added 8 months ago just in case more info was added. Imagine my surprise when the link disappeared the same day on k9data that I did my follow-up post above a few days ago.
> 
> So yes, it's back, albeit on a different link _without_ the Pawprint report which I just now added back.
> 
> ...


If someone other than you is making changes to your dogs record or removed it, you can report that to k9data and ask them to lock it so it can't be changed. But you should change the breeder's name back to the correct one first.


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

So there is one name on the paperwork when I purchased the dog and a different one on the AKC form they sent.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

It was an admin who made the change, so I would assume that the info she input is correct.


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Tahnee GR said:


> It was an admin who made the change, so I would assume that the info she input is correct.


Actually, the information was not changed. It was completely removed, along with the Pawprint info (which I added back today).

Yesterday, I sent the admin of k9data all of the paperwork (see enclosed) including Pawprint info. "Natalie" sold the dog as the breeder. The AKC form came with the breeder named "Sharon". I have no idea who Sharon is, but I do know the dam was only recently registered in Jun - nearly a year after I got the pup - which is why I didn't get the form until recently.


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## gsk8 (Aug 22, 2019)

Oh wow! I was just informed by one the k9data folks that the breeder told them the dog didn't exist and to remove it from the database! That's why it was removed until I showed paperwork 

Unbelievable.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I input a couple more Quivira dogs today to k9data.. for those who interested in keeping up with this show...

Interesting pedigrees.


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