# Gahhhhhhh!



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Quiz and I showed in UKC Open today. Many of you know that when we debuted in Open (AKC) this summer, his groups fell apart - to the point that he was panicking and running out of the ring to come find me. Poor boy! I suspect he wasn't as confident in my absence as I thought, and in one of the three days of showing, he was really startled by some explosive barking just behind him outside the ring. I did that initial three day show, plus 2 subsequent UKC shows and he had stress monkey groups each time, so I stopped showing and set out to re-build groups.

Three months later, I entered him in a local "fake" trial... "fake" b/c it's just about all the local obed clubs competing against each other for bragging rights. I went into it just wanting him to hold his groups... and he DID! I was soooooo happy! Not only that, he and I finished 3rd out of 32 dog/handler teams in Open! That was two weeks ago.

TODAY....... he didn't panic, but went down on the sit in both shows. ARGH!!!!! :doh: :doh: :doh: It started as sniffing and he just went down from there. I'm not sure if he's sniffing b/c of stress (carryover from before) or if he's just being a butt and sniffing, but I do have it on video to analyze.

The worst part? In BOTH shows it blew scores of 198.5 which would've been HIT!

It KILLS me to blow such great scores! I'm SUPER competitive... not against other people and not in a nasty way... but totally against myself and it's driving me nuts that I can't seem to help him get it all together on the same day. He's consistently scored 197 or better in every open ring we've NQ'd in. WAHHHHHHHH.

*sigh* Back again tomorrow. Fingers crossed that we'll have the bugs worked out. The lying down on the sit is a new variation. Historically it was running out to come get me or staying in place with a LOT of stress vocalization. Oh well. At least it's getting better..... BUT STILL! 198.5 in Open A!!!!!!! WAHHHH!

OK. Pity party over now. Thanks for listening.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I'm so sorry!  I took my sheltie up to Open but we never got a leg. She would lie down on the long sit-stays too. Good luck to you guys in fixing this. It is why I rarely practice down-stays in comparison to my sit-stays with Scout.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Poor Quiz, he'll get it! That is one reason I haven't entered Dooley in a show yet. He has everything down but is not consistant on the stays. Once you have a stay problem, it is tough to solve. But, I am confident you two will come through with flying Quiz colors!


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Thinking good thoughts and confident, upright, sits for ya Stephanie & Quiz!!!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Welcome to the Stay Problem Club. It stinks being a member, but the good news is that almost everybody that shows in open enough is a member at some time or another. Hopefully your membership will expire soon!

Conner used to be rock solid at sit stays. Then one day last year (we had just gotten our UD a few months before, had 8 OTCH points, had gotten our Open B first the trial before), he just decided for whatever reason to go down. So the next week we practiced and proofed sits every chance we got. Got the the next trial (which happened to be 7 1/2 hours away), and he went down both days.

At that point it was evident he had a problem, so I pulled him from open for the rest of the year. First show back in January, he held his sit (plus won open and got HIT and high combined). Very next weekend, he was back down both days.

Pulled him out again until April. First show back, held his sit fine, next show after that, down again. And it has been a consistent battle like that.


The thing that is so frustrating with Conner is he absolutely will not go down anywhere except in the ring. I can do pretty much anything, any proof, and he will not go down. But put him in a ring setting and if he decides to go down he does it the second I'm out of sight.

So right now my plan is to only show him in open 1 trial per weekend, and only if there is a match the night before. So far that's been successful.

If you haven't read Linda Koutsky's article on stays, I highly recommend it. Following her advice is the only thing that has kept me from pulling Conner from Open forever.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Sorry to hear that Stephanie. But it does not sound as bad as during the summer so I will be hoping it is just him being a bit of a butt head. Of all the "problems" to encounter in obedience I really believe that the stays are the hardest by far to fix and it sounds as if you have made great strides in a very short time with him. Hoping tomorrow brings better results.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Ouch, that had to hurt!! Thinking good, upright thoughts for you!
I have a suggestion, but it's "correction based" (but doesn't hurt). Let me know if you want to go that route....


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> Ouch, that had to hurt!! Thinking good, upright thoughts for you!
> I have a suggestion, but it's "correction based" (but doesn't hurt). Let me know if you want to go that route....


I'm open to hearing about any/all ideas. Even if I don't end up using an idea "as is," sometimes I find a way to tweak it.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Here's some of the many things I have done this past year that seemed to have helped. I had never tried any of these until I knew we had a problem.

I never ever end stays with a down stay. In a trial, I will give quick, quiet praise for the down stay. Then I put the dog back in a sit stay while I gather up my leash and armband. Lots and lots of praise for such a good sit stay and release. That way the last thing the dogs remembers being praised for in the ring is a sit.

At a match, I will give someone an extra special treat to go in and feed my dog at some point during the stays. I had done that plenty before, here's what I added to make it more powerful: Right before we go in for stays at a trial, I let someone give him a little piece of his special treat. Then I let him watch the person sit down with the rest of his treat. As you leave the ring go right to the person and get his treats. (make sure the person isn't too close to the rings, you don't want it considered double handling)

The above ideas are good for long-term help, but if you want something to try to help fix stays tomorrow this is something you could try: a couple of minutes before you go into the ring, put dog in sit stay. Have someone else come up and tell him to down. If he goes down, you go in and correct him for going down (whatever you would normally do for a dog going down on a sit), and that will be fresh in his mind as he goes in the ring that you want him to be sitting up. If he weren't to go down, you would get to reward him for making such a good decisions to sit.


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## Augie's Mom (Sep 28, 2007)

That's a bummer. But you guys will rock tomorrow! 

I assume you were at the WLAOTC trial today. We were there too but in the Rally ring. 

We'll be there tomorrow so if I see you we will stop by and say hi.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Here's some more ideas for proofing sits. When I was really having stay problems I would do a couple of these a day. Now I just do about one a week to make sure he's really thinking about sitting. The tougher the proof, the more excited Conner gets about not falling for it.

Lie down on the floor, and do anything that would encourage him to want to come down with you (except give a down command/signal!) like pat the floor or make kissy noises.

Put him on a bed

Tie a scarf around his neck and put something heavy in it 

Have someone else give him a command

Tie a long clear line around his collar. Hold it while you are out of sight. About 2 minutes in, give a yank on it.

Put a handful of treats right below him.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Augie's Mom said:


> That's a bummer. But you guys will rock tomorrow!
> 
> I assume you were at the WLAOTC trial today. We were there too but in the Rally ring.
> 
> We'll be there tomorrow so if I see you we will stop by and say hi.


YUP! That's the one! How'd your Rally go? See you tomorrow!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Loisiana said:


> Here's some more ideas for proofing sits. When I was really having stay problems I would do a couple of these a day. Now I just do about one a week to make sure he's really thinking about sitting. The tougher the proof, the more excited Conner gets about not falling for it.
> 
> Lie down on the floor, and do anything that would encourage him to want to come down with you (except give a down command/signal!) like pat the floor or make kissy noises.
> 
> ...


All interesting ideas for proofing, thanks for sharing them.

I'm 99.9% sure the problem is from sniffing. He's *always* been a sniffer and that's a hard problem to fix b/c attempts to correct it can make it worse since sniffing is also a displacement behavior. I know in one ring today it started with him bending over in the sit and then basically going down as if to say, "oh my... much easier to sniff down here..."

I have to find a way to go back and make it way more fun to NOT sniff than to sniff.

*sigh*..*sniff*sniff*


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Another suggestion (ya, this is like a student telling a teacher how to solve a math problem, but take it for what its worth). When entered in a match, go in like it is a real show, don't correct, treat or praise. Make the dog think it is a real show situation then when they have their "issue" sniffing, going down, etc. that is when you correct.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I'm 99.9% sure the problem is from sniffing. He's *always* been a sniffer and that's a hard problem to fix b/c attempts to correct it can make it worse since sniffing is also a displacement behavior. I know in one ring today it started with him bending over in the sit and then basically going down as if to say, "oh my... much easier to sniff down here..."
> *sigh*..*sniff*sniff*


If it were me, I'd want to face the problem directly, so I would try putting something that smells really good down there. He would only gets the treats when not looking at them.

If you don't want to go that route, then I would focus on not allowing him to move his paws. It's a lot harder to go down if he doesn't move his feet. I like to train this by putting a small dowel stick across the dogs' feet. If he moves his feet, the dowel falls off.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Loisiana said:


> If it were me, I'd want to face the problem directly, so I would try putting something that smells really good down there. He would only gets the treats when not looking at them.
> 
> If you don't want to go that route, then I would focus on not allowing him to move his paws. It's a lot harder to go down if he doesn't move his feet. I like to train this by putting a small dowel stick across the dogs' feet. If he moves his feet, the dowel falls off.


I actually used the food refusal quite a bit in his early training. I used a John Rogerson technique where you start with food visibe and then work up to making it *look* like you're placing food, but you really keep it on you and when you return, you go through the motion of pretending to pick it up, but really, you've been palming it the entire time -- the idea being, the dog thinks there's food there even if he can't see it while in the stay.

Good idea to try going back to something like that.

I've seen people do the dowel on the paws. I'll have to try that.

Thanks!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

What seems to have worked for a few people I know (but yes, it involves corrections) is to have all kinds of different people both correct and reward your dog.
Go ahead and leave the ring as you usually do. At the first sign of sniffing, the "judge" should go in and firmly correct him, NO SNIFF. If he goes down, the "judge" should go in and firmly correct him "SIT! STAY!" and reposition him if necessary.
If he remains sitting even for a few seconds, the "judge" should go in and praise and reward him then walk back away from him. 
Sometimes, someone who appears to be just wandering around outside the ring should do it. Sometimes it should be a ring steward. Sometimes you, yourself should come back and randomly reward him for still sitting (or correct him for sniffing or going down).
The idea is that the dog never knows who is going to come in and correct him or reward him. It could be anyone. 
Good luck today!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> What seems to have worked for a few people I know (but yes, it involves corrections) is to have all kinds of different people both correct and reward your dog.
> Go ahead and leave the ring as you usually do. At the first sign of sniffing, the "judge" should go in and firmly correct him, NO SNIFF. If he goes down, the "judge" should go in and firmly correct him "SIT! STAY!" and reposition him if necessary.
> If he remains sitting even for a few seconds, the "judge" should go in and praise and reward him then walk back away from him.
> Sometimes, someone who appears to be just wandering around outside the ring should do it. Sometimes it should be a ring steward. Sometimes you, yourself should come back and randomly reward him for still sitting (or correct him for sniffing or going down).
> ...



Hi -- okay here is my take on this. 
First off -- my first golden started his great decline in sit stays (which ended with him being petrified to sit next to any dog -- for the rest of his life -- thanks instructors! you rock). Anyways it all started with him sniffing. My instructor's solution was to walk in and smack him and say NO! STAY! or whatever. 
Now that is an extreme version of what is suggested above -- but I think my point is, do NOT handle stay corrections (especially if the dog is stationary) with NEGATIVITY. It is SO easy to create a bad spot of the stays with corrections that even anywhere else would hardly register on the dog's radar. 
Okay, so the 2nd part of my suggestion is taken from field work. SIT MEANS SIT. Sit does not mean bend over and sniff, it doesn't mean move your front feet, it doesn't mean turn around and look behind you. It means SIT. 
I have had an ongoing problem with Fisher sniffing madly while waiting in the holding blind. It started as being a typical boy and wanting to smell where the other dogs had been, and developed into a habit -- that what we do in the holding blind is turn ourselves into a pretzel and sniff. I started a very strict regimen of SIT MEANS SIT and if he sniffed the ground in the holding blind, he got a low correction with the ecollar and a verbal SIT. Nothing more, nothing less. 
So for in the ring, I am not debating the notion of having other people correct him, but I am suggesting that they not so much correct (as in NEGATIVE) but rather, they need to just say SIT and reposition him in an upright sitting position.
The other factor is -- will this be just as or even more stressful for the dog? Stephanie is dealing with "little reactive red dog" and not "golden rug" like our breed dogs. Different mind set altogether. If Quiz is nervous to begin with (and I bet 98% of his sniffing is stress relief), having a stranger come in and manhandle him might increase that stress tenfold.
Back to sit means sit. In the Celeste Meade seminar I went to, she did an exercise called "Chair Sit" which basically had the dog do a sit stay with the handler parked in a lawn chair 3 feet behind them. You'd be amazed how many dogs totally fell apart and couldn't figure out that they had to sit still, facing forward, when their handler was 3 feet behind them. (my dog being one of them!) This was another very clever exercise to emphasize SIT MEANS SIT. The only correction for turning or laying down (many of the dogs would lay down to more easily turn and face their handler) was for the handler to reposition them and say SIT. The benefits of this also, you can practice AT the show. I can't say how great this works long term as I have not done it except for a few times, but if I were actively trialing I think I'd give it a whirl.
Best of luck and I commiserate!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, the amount of "correction" sure has to depend on the dog, and for some dogs, it might just be having other people reward him for holding the sit rather than acknowledging when he breaks the sit.
Um yeah, Tito is about as reactive as a brick. The building could fall down and he'd probably yawn.




K9-Design said:


> So for in the ring, I am not debating the notion of having other people correct him, but I am suggesting that they not so much correct (as in NEGATIVE) but rather, they need to just say SIT and reposition him in an upright sitting position.
> The other factor is -- will this be just as or even more stressful for the dog? Stephanie is dealing with "little reactive red dog" and not "golden rug" like our breed dogs. Different mind set altogether. If Quiz is nervous to begin with (and I bet 98% of his sniffing is stress relief), having a stranger come in and manhandle him might increase that stress tenfold.
> QUOTE]


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Yeah, having someone else correct your dog is something that you really have to look at your dog. For some dogs it works great, others not so much. I have used it before some with Conner (although I am getting away from that). I would never ever do that with my Lhasa. The reason being if he thinks he's about to be corrected he will bolt. And that's the last thing I need, a dog that runs around the ring every time a judge or steward goes in his direction during stays.

I used to always use hands on the collar to lift them back up into a sit as my correction, but I have started using tapping their feet with my foot instead. It gives a much more immediate reaction. Also, if they go down in the ring, I can't correct by lifting the collar, but I could tap the floor right in front of their feet. So they are getting some sort of feedback about not going down in the ring.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I don't have any advise, plus everyone else has lots of great ideas. Just wanted to say I am sorry  you are Quiz are a great team, you will work through it!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Thanks to all for the kind words.

Had the same problem today in the first ring, so I pulled him from the second; no need to keep practicing the unwanted behavior.

He's definitely a high energy dog (ha, that's putting it lightly!) and he's also on the insecure side. Those two things are what make us a fun TEAM when we're both in the ring at the same time! I've socialized the pants off him from the beginning and he's great when I'm around - happy, confident, willing to try anything, etc. I think growing up and doing SO MUCH with a "single mom" contributed to the insecurity in my absence - which, I should add, only shows up in unfamiliar/stressful environments. There is zero S.A. at home and he's fine when I drop him off to stay with friends when I'm out of town.

ANYWAY... I'm trying to look at it that at least it's BETTER. He didn't run out of the ring, so that's a huge improvement. I do think he's sniffing out of stress. I've decided that he was fine 2 weeks ago b/c we have our "peeps" outside of the ring. Not that they were double handling in the least - they were just spectating. But it allowed him to look around and go, "Oh... look... my friends! OK. Mom's not here, but my friends are here. Cool!" At this show, the only person we knew was in the ring with us and therefore out of sight at the same time.

SO -- I need to keep building confidence using familiar people PLUS start getting him out to completely different training groups and start having any of those people go in and remind him to not sniff (I'm just using a real calm, "no sniff") as well as come and calmly pet him in my absence. He needs to think ANYONE can potentially do it, not just me or the people he knows. And the REAL trick here will be to switch training groups often enough so he doesn't just start associating the "safe-ness" of the experience with the fact that he's gotten to know the people we train with.

I'll also play with the sit = sit w/o any bending, etc.

All in all...... I'm bummed... mostly b/c it means I can't continue to show him, and I LIKE showing him!!!! And yeah... blowing two 198.5s and a 198 on the sit totally SUCKS!!

SO - new plan? Cancel all plans of showing 'til we're pretty much utility ready and then see where we are with Open stays.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Bummer on the stays, but at least now you have a plan. Sounds like a good one. Quiz will do it. It is hard, but at the same time great, that they are so attached to us. I think that is Dooley's problem, he is so happy when with me, he doesn't like me to go away. We are getting there though, and so will Quiz. 

Stays were never a problem with my other dogs (two CDXs and UD) so I thought there was nothing to them, then came Dooley. Go figure.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I'm replying to this mainly so the Nexium spam post isn't the first one on this forum.
But I will say, very smart move to pull Quiz from the 2nd show. And this tells you something -- that the sniffing/laying down is no accident. Once is a mistake, twice is a coincidence, three times is a habit.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

What a bummer!  Good luck with the new plan, I'm sure you'll work through this. And yep, good for you for pulling him from the second trial ...


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

Ahh! As my coach told me a month ago, "Welcome to OPEN!"

When Casey was experiencing stay issues, I worked on the old putting him in a stay and applying forward pressure at the end of the leash. Once Casey understood *that,* he seemed to understand that "stay' meant "stay". I think I'd been lucky with him before hand...he'd stayed put because I'd asked him to, not because he truly understood what I meant.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Aw Steph, I'm sorry to hear that. He will get it, I know it. Quizzler's the man!!

I have had the same problem with Layla in AKC Open. She got her U-CDX legs 1-2-3 before she turned 2 years old. Then, we ran into some problems in AKC Open. She would always flunk either DOR or stays (particularly the down stay). Layla had some separation issues we had to work through too. If I can get out of the ring without her moving, she will most likely hold the stay. She used to (*knock on wood*) freak out when I started to leave the ring on the down stay.

Good luck in training!


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