# Breeding a "non papered" GR



## CooperRoo (Jan 4, 2022)

We have a pure-bred GR (male, now 11 months old) that is not registered from pedigreed parents (owners didn't file paperwork for his litter),and would like to breed him in the future. Anyone have any tips or suggestions on how to find a mate and/or how to navigate the process? We are new to GRs and are in love. He is a great dog.


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## LA152 (Dec 31, 2020)

If his breeder simply didn’t bother getting the litter registered, you can register him yourself. What’s more likely is that one or both of his parents were on limited registration, which means their offspring are not eligible for registration (or maybe only PALS registration, if you get PALS registration you can enter him in AKC competitions aside from conformation). If his parents were on limited reg that means the breeders who produced each of them didn’t want them to be bred and the owners went ahead and had litter anyway. It’s also possible that one or both of his parents were not registered at all.


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## CooperRoo (Jan 4, 2022)

The breeder said it was a surprise pregnancy. I didn't know we could register him ourselves. Will look into that. Thanks!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

You have to have the parents registration number, and then contact AKC to ask how to register him. If you are not able to get full registration on him, please do not breed him. Any puppies he produces can not be registered if he does not have full registration.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

CooperRoo said:


> The breeder said it was a surprise pregnancy. I didn't know we could register him ourselves. Will look into that. Thanks!



You probably can’t. “It was a surprise” is not anywhere near a reason to register. It they were not registered, there is a reason like the parents are limited or unregistered themselves. 

Can I ask why you want to breed?


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## CooperRoo (Jan 4, 2022)

He is an amazing dog and I'd like to have one of his puppies. Honestly, I don't care about papers or registering him - just want to find a suitable mate.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

All Goldens are amazing and he is pretty young. What would you consider a suitable mate? Or maybe what would be unsuitable?


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## CooperRoo (Jan 4, 2022)

As I understand it, he is still too young to sire a litter - researching for future. Suitable would be another non-papered purebred GR.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Have you thought about health, temperament or structure that doesn’t predispose the dogs to injury or pain?


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Hi Cooper, I have a friend who is in a similar boat than you. They have this dog that they really love and he does not have any papers. They want to breed him badly. Without being condescending, I remind them that while they can get all the health testing on him, they have no idea what is behind him. Did one of his parents have hip dysplasia? Elbow dysplasia? Did a grandsire die of genetic heart disease? 

Then the same goes for the girlie. Because my friend's boy has nothing behind him and isn't registered, the quality of the females brought to him would never be good. There would very likely be a complete lack of health testing and these puppies will be a Pandora's box. Sure they could all be fine, but good breeders go to extreme lengths to ensure that the puppies they breed will be healthy and free of debilitating disease.

Then the issue of temperaments. Your boy may have a fantastic temperament and the girl brought may also be great. But if there is a dog behind either that was NOT ideal, especially in a more dangerous way, that could rear its ugly head up as well. 

At a minimum, Golden retrievers need to have their hips tested at 24 mo, elbows at 24 mo, heart evaluated by a cardiologist, and eye exams yearly by an ophthalmologist before breed. For dogs with no background, I would also do a full panel genetic test and do NCL testing at the minimum.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Welcome to the forum! Many here are deeply invested in the preservation of a breed we all love passionately, and part of that passion is wanting only Goldens who meet the breed standard and who have a long history of health clearances to send their genes into the next generation. This is not about whether your dog is registered or whether he is a wonderful family member or a handsome representative of his breed, but only that without health clearances (not only for your dog, and the dog you choose to breed to your dog, but on the majority of those dogs' ancestors as well) you run the risk of producing puppies that will only bring heartache to their families.

That said... if you are determined that your dog will be used to create puppies...please do what you can to ensure both he _and any female you breed him to _at the very least have the four core health clearances proscribed by the GRCA Code of Ethics. These include a hip x-ray done at no younger than 24 months of age and submitted to OFA (with a final rating of Fair, Good or Excellent), an elbow x-ray submitted at the same time (and judged to be "normal" by OFA), a heart exam done by a cardiologist (not a regular vet) and submitted to OFA for inclusion in their database, and yearly eye exams done by an ophthalmologist (and again, submitted to OFA for inclusion in the database). These tests are recommended because Goldens as a breed are prone to hip and elbow dysplasia, as well as several eye and heart diseases, and you definitely do NOT want to pass those on to a new generation. A simple physical by your vet will NOT be sufficient to tell you if your dog has hip dysplasia or a heart issue, and even if your dog is 100% sound, if his ancestors didn't have their clearances (or the DNA tests that are also recommended to test for the genes for a variety of serious and sometimes fatal diseases) then you don't know what is swimming around in his gene pool. Since it sounds like your boy likely came from a breeder who did not follow the Code of Ethics, then your chances of your boy carrying such genes are MUCH higher than if you had bought him from a responsible breeder.

You say you want to breed him to another unregistered female... be aware that that means that she will be a black-hole of health risks as well.

Anyway, I'm going to provide some links below that may be of help and interest if you decide you really want to pursue breeding your dog. There are many other great resources here and at the GRCA website, so I hope you take a look around and do a bunch of reading so you can make informed decisions going forward...








Home - The Canine Chasm


The Canine Chasm - Crossing the Chasm between the Pet World and the Dog World - Welcome to The Canine Chasm! Not your typical dog blog, The Canine Chasm seeks to bridge gap between the Pet World and the Dog World. This blog is for YOU: whether you are an looking for a responsibly bred puppy...




thecaninechasm.com




(see especially this post: How To Recognize Ethical Breeders – Reputable Breeders, Part 1)





Why Buy Your Next Puppy From A Show Breeder?


I hear this more often than I'd like to admit: "I just want a pet, not a show dog." And it breaks my heart because it's just so wrong. As ...




dogopinionshere.blogspot.com












So You Want to Breed Your First Dog Litter? Read This First.


Do you want to breed a litter? What is involved in breeding a litter, if you are going to do it right? Ask yourself these sobering questions.




www.akc.org






http://www.clairedvm.com/so_you_want_to_breed_your_dog.pdf


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## CooperRoo (Jan 4, 2022)

Yes, of course. Those would be major considerations for a suitable mate. I would think it would be important to meet the dog and see vet records.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

CooperRoo said:


> He is an amazing dog and I'd like to have one of his puppies. Honestly, I don't care about papers or registering him - just want to find a suitable mate.


Small tiny thing to keep in mind.... as a boy dog owner, you are not the one breeding your boy and even if you get somebody to use them for a prospective litter.... there is no guarantee you get to keep a puppy from the litter. And further emphasis is boy dog owners are not the ones looking for suitable mates. You are not a breeder as a boy dog owner. Breeders are the ones looking around for a stud dog that has everything they want to shore up in what they are breeding. To make your dog attractive to breeders so they select your boy for a prospective litter, it is up to you to get him registered and hopefully he has a good pedigree behind him. He needs full registration because while you may not care about papers, a breeder who is building a program definitely cares. Then you need to get full clearances at 24 months. And currently more and more breeders are requesting DNA tests on prospective studs. 

For extra emphasis - very important thing to keep in mind is that the type of breeder willing to use a dog with no papers or clearances.... and an unknown history, is unlikely to be the type of breeder you want to keep a puppy from.


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## CooperRoo (Jan 4, 2022)

Appreciate all the responses. Sounds like I need to forget this idea.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

CooperRoo said:


> Yes, of course. Those would be major considerations for a suitable mate. I would think it would be important to meet the dog and see vet records.



Let’s see if this makes more sense. Would this be the same level of attention to detail you would use with a house? “I would think it would be important to view the house and see repair records.”

Or would you dig deeper? Hire a termite company to inspect, a licensed home inspector to catch the crack in the foundation you might miss, have a title company make sure nothing untoward is happening with the deed?

The big stuff takes more attention, research, education and care. To most families their Golden is a big thing.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

It’s more than vet records. They both need OFA clearances. Also, you need a way to prove him. Since conformation is definitely out, find a sport you like and start training him for it. If nothing else, you’ll have a great time bonding with your boy!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Abeille said:


> It’s more than vet records. They both need OFA clearances. Also, you need a way to prove him. Since conformation is definitely out, find a sport you like and start training him for it. If nothing else, you’ll have a great time bonding with your boy!


But he has not registered. This means the only way he can be registered is by alternative registration requiring neutering.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

CooperRoo said:


> Appreciate all the responses. Sounds like I need to forget this idea.


Not forget, reevaluate. If you want to breed, we are in desperate need of responsible preservation breeders. You could absolutely look for a mentor who would likely place a really good show/breeding prospect with you. 

Many of us are in the same boat. I never bred my first Golden and that story rings true with many breeders. Just because you don’t breed a dog that is not a good candidate doesn’t mean you can’t if you do your homework on the next.


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## SteveRuffin (Sep 21, 2021)

CooperRoo said:


> Appreciate all the responses. Sounds like I need to forget this idea.


What I Think may be a great idea for you is to maximize your potential by getting a wonderful puppy with a fantastic disposition from a trusted breeder doing genetic testing. This is a win-win for you and the breed. You get a great puppy and the breed progresses in the right direction. You have no guesswork and can rest comfortably that you have maximized all your chances of getting that wonderful pup.


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

When I once thought I wanted to breed one of my Golden's I asked a breeder that I knew fairly well. She asked me why I wanted to breed my dog. I went on and on about how wonderful my Golden was, how smart she was, how beautiful she was, etc. etc. The breeder they explained to me that she always understood that the reason to breed a dog is to try and do something to improve the breed. Breeders go to great length and expense to find a pair of dogs that have some tangible, verifiable trait that possibly could be passed to offspring that would add to the overall quality of the breed. In most cases this is something that is tangible from the parents linage or from the overall performance of the two dogs being bred. 

I thought alot about this and realized that I just wanted to have the experience and maybe to get another pup like the one I have. But, I was not really trying to improve the breed...

Why do you want to breed your pup?


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

CooperRoo said:


> We have a pure-bred GR (male, now 11 months old) that is not registered from pedigreed parents (owners didn't file paperwork for his litter), and would like to breed him in the future . Anyone have any tips or suggestions on how to find a mate and/or how to navigate the process? We are new to GRs and are in love. He is a great dog.
> View attachment 888250


Not what you want to hear but no matter how great he is, nobody with a worthy bitch is going to breed to an unregistered male.


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## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

LJack said:


> Not forget, reevaluate. If you want to breed, we are in desperate need of responsible preservation breeders. You could absolutely look for a mentor who would likely place a really good show/breeding prospect with you.
> 
> Many of us are in the same boat. I never bred my first Golden and that story rings true with many breeders. Just because you don’t breed a dog that is not a good candidate doesn’t mean you can’t if you do your homework on the next.


I was a breeder caretaker for a service dog organization. I will never understand, but will always admire, responsible preservation breeders. Having a litter of puppies is so much work but unlike with private breeders I didn’t have to research prospective buyers. I didn’t have to spend hours and hours researching sires. I also had the support of other volunteers who would come by if I needed a break or had to go somewhere as part of my life as a parent. I also had access to free 24/7 vet care so I could call even if I thought I was maybe being neurotic but wanted a little hand holding or reassurance. I didn’t have to buy every puppy stimulation toy/supply under the sun because I could share with the other volunteers. All food was provided free of charge. I also had a manual to follow that told me day by day what to do. There is no way in heck I’d be a private preservation breeder. My hat is off to the ones who do it responsibly. The breed is lucky to have such folks. (And I didn’t even talk about all that you go through if there’s a problem - stillborn, puppy that won’t latch, low birth weight puppy, cleft palate puppy, mastitis, etc. I need a nap just thinking about all that private preservation breeders do!)


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

The counter argument is that the evolution of sexual reproduction over billions of years has resulted in biological rulebook. In that rulebook genetic _diversity_ produces healthier and more consistent populations.

The act of sexual fertilisation always introduces random mutations, some good and some bad, and the only way to sustainably improve a line is through open and fair competition.

One champion dog with health clearances can sire hundreds of puppies and in doing so shrink the gene pool, encouraging next generation in-breeding, and harm the continuation of GRs. Put another way, because genetic improvement is random, the benefits of DNA mutation cannot be the reserve of champion parents.

Keeping the gene pool closed and small for the unnatural posterity of a few breeders is inconsistent with the biological process that develops healthy offspring.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

SRW said:


> Not what you want to hear but no matter how great he is, nobody with a worthy bitch is going to breed to an unregistered male.


KC/AKC/etc. should introduce a Wild Card rule where a champion of unknown origins can be awarded registration, or have their registration upgraded.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Megora said:


> But he has not registered. This means the only way he can be registered is by alternative registration requiring neutering.


Of course....that part had already been covered. I was trying to add to what had already been mentioned.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Howler said:


> The counter argument is that the evolution of sexual reproduction over billions of years has resulted in biological rulebook. In that rulebook genetic _diversity_ produces healthier and more consistent populations.
> 
> The act of sexual fertilisation always introduces random mutations, some good and some bad, and the only way to sustainably improve a line is through open and fair competition.
> 
> ...


So, you are talking very granularly about genetics which of course has value to the discussion of preserving the breed. However, this statement is like talking a high level concept with a toddler. Randomly breeding unregistered dogs to unregistered dogs is not going to help the breed. They are affectively no longer a part of the breed and their offspring will not benefit future generations. 

Personally I am focused on increasing genetic diversity within the breed. This is the COI for our newest puppy. Genetic information for Test35646 Teddy x Saucy
Generations of known dogs and health on both sides yet diversity far beyond most of the breed.

While we might get to the point that we will need to open the stud books at some point like Dalmatians did, this type of breeding is not that.

I will preface this next bit with this, I am purposely not talking about limited or restricted registration dogs as they are very likely already genetically similar to the full registration dogs out there in the breeding population. I am curious if you really feel there are a bunch unregistered dogs out there that are Champion quality and have owners who care about competing? I have a hard time breeding for Champion dogs and I am hyper focused on structure and that goal along with genetic diversity.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

CooperRoo said:


> Appreciate all the responses. Sounds like I need to forget this idea.


For him...probably. I still suggest getting involved in dog sports. I actually started with a shelter dog. Now I'm competing in upper level obedience with a well bred dog!


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

LJack said:


> I will preface this next bit with this, I am purposely not talking about limited or restricted registration dogs as they are very likely already genetically similar to the full registration dogs out there in the breeding population. I am curious if you really feel there are a bunch unregistered dogs out there that are Champion quality and have owners who care about competing? I have a hard time breeding for Champion dogs and I am hyper focused on structure and that goal along with genetic diversity.


Truth is I know a little more about genetics than I do about dogs.

My puppy comes from a strict and responsible GR breeder who insisted on restricted registration. She suggested that I can discuss breeding options with her later down the line, but 8 weeks is too soon to know how any of the dogs will turn out. Given they were bred from champions I don't need to ask to know that achieving a "son of Murphy" would require some luck and a lot of hard work. Nothing in genetics is guaranteed but the chance of one of her pups being a champion is plausible.

Very near me is another GR breeder running a crank-the-handle farming operation. Her dogs are not bred with the same rigour, but they have stood alongside Murphy and they remarkably share the distinctive shape of his eyes - and that is the only thing they have in common! This leads me to suspect the farm's gene pool has already been seeded by at least one of Murphy's distant cousins. As above, nothing in genetics is guaranteed and the odds of one of her pups being a near clone of a champion is low - but it is not impossible.

That leads to the problem: "What if" a farmed pup comes into the possession of a good owner by chance? "What if" that owner is able to tap into the dog's genetic potential? "What if" that dog does outperform fully registered dogs? Should they be neutered?

I suspect the KC/AKC influencers concede that this is hypothetically possible, and that they then consider the loss of that rare dog's genes an acceptable price in policing their breed. On the other hand, that rare dog's genes would have offered greater genetic diversity to the breed than any of the incumbent champions.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Howler said:


> I suspect the KC/AKC influencers concede that this is hypothetically possible, and that they then consider the loss of that rare dog's genes an acceptable price in policing their breed. On the other hand, that rare dog's genes would have offered greater genetic diversity to the breed than any of the incumbent champions.


We are getting so far into hypotheticals and what if’s that it is so statistically improbable in the everyday world we are likely comparing to lotto/powerball winners. 

The nearly impossible dog with the nearly impossible owner who can see the potential and the nearly impossible wins it would take to make this all align. 

If we are really interested in genetic diversity it can be done with careful breeding decisions in the breed (people like me) or a carefully planned and monitored program like the Dals did. It is so statically improbable that I would say impossible that unregistered dogs of dubious backgrounds are the genetic diversity fix for any breed.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

LJack said:


> We are getting so far into hypotheticals and what if’s that it is so statistically improbable in the everyday world we are likely comparing to lotto/powerball winners.


Should a lotto winner be denied their winnings on the basis that it was unlikely they would win? 

Compare human society in which sport club scouts watch young players on school grounds and select them for trials. Each generation's sporting heroes are not descended from sporting heroes..


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Howler said:


> Compare human society in which sport club scouts watch young players on school grounds and select them for trials. Each generation's sporting heroes are not descended from sporting heroes..


That argument makes sense with your sports idea or dog performance like field, hunt or obedience. 

Conformation which is what makes a Champion is based on structure and movement, not a skill. There is no direct comparison I know of in humans. 

Most conformation competitor breeders are pretty good at determining at young ages which dogs will not be competitive in the breed ring. I do things like measuring bone lengths, angles, etc. It’s very clear if a shoulder assembly for example is not correct in its construction at 7-8 weeks of age the chances of major skeletal structure changes to the positive are highly unlikely. Probably about the same as getting struck by lightning. 

If you want to believe that this is a solution because there is no one in their right mind who can say 0% chance, there is no amount of information that will change that. In the real world the chance is so low, I would say impossible. 🤷‍♀️


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Yeah...there are only


Howler said:


> Compare human society in which sport club scouts watch young players on school grounds and select them for trials. Each generation's sporting heroes are not descended from sporting heroes..


Comparing human athletes to dogs is not a good description. First of all, there is some genetic basis for athletes. My own anecdotal experience is that my high school produced two NFL players. They’re cousins.
Anyway, the point is, you’re comparing apples to oranges. You can build upon potential with an athlete, but you can’t change the way a dog is born. It’s either going to be show quality or it is not. With enough money you might be able to muscle in a few points, but it pales in comparison.
Like in Dals, outcrossing needs to be done very carefully to maintain a breed. Outcrossing in a purebred population is almost moot unless repeated for several generations.









Limits to genetic rescue by outcross in pedigree dogs - PubMed


Outcrossing should reduce inbreeding levels and associated negative effects in highly inbred populations. In this study, we investigated the effectiveness of different outcrossing schemes using computer simulations. The inbreeding rate estimated for a 25-year period of 2.1% per generation in a...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





Anyway, there is a geneticist that is pretty against outcrossing solely for the sake of reducing COI. He argues that outcrossing and backcrossing do nothing but muddy isolated gene pools, making it difficult when you must outcross. I can’t remember his name and feel I would need to do more research but the basics hold true.

Dog breeders know inbreeding is a problem but it’s not as simple as “take this dog and breed it to this dog and voila, less inbreeding”


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

The Manning family. Enough said.


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## CooperRoo (Jan 4, 2022)

3goldens2keep said:


> When I once thought I wanted to breed one of my Golden's I asked a breeder that I knew fairly well. She asked me why I wanted to breed my dog. I went on and on about how wonderful my Golden was, how smart she was, how beautiful she was, etc. etc. The breeder they explained to me that she always understood that the reason to breed a dog is to try and do something to improve the breed. Breeders go to great length and expense to find a pair of dogs that have some tangible, verifiable trait that possibly could be passed to offspring that would add to the overall quality of the breed. In most cases this is something that is tangible from the parents linage or from the overall performance of the two dogs being bred.
> 
> I thought alot about this and realized that I just wanted to have the experience and maybe to get another pup like the one I have. But, I was not really trying to improve the breed...
> 
> Why do you want to breed your pup?


Exactly like you. I'm not interested in breeding the perfect lineage of GR. I have a great dog and think he would make great puppies with another healthy purebred GR. Period. I personally don't think it's wrong to want to do that. We are responsible pet parents and want to do it the most responsible way (hence, researching sites like this one.) Maybe we won't, at this point. This discussion has been very insightful. Thanks to everyone who replied.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

ArkansasGold said:


> The Manning family. Enough said.


You're not suggesting there is an inbred family, are you?


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Howler said:


> You're not suggesting there is an inbred family, are you?


Uuuuuhhhh. No. Sports hero from one generation begetting not one, but two heroes in the next. It would have been three, but the oldest brother has an issue that could have left him paralyzed if he had continued playing.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Howler said:


> KC/AKC/etc. should introduce a Wild Card rule where a champion of unknown origins can be awarded registration, or have their registration upgraded.


Gotta say, this completely confused me when I saw it earlier. Figured it was because I was distracted by work and would give it a second read later, and I still do not understand what you are suggesting?

At least with AKC, a dog cannot be a CH if not registered. You cannot enter a show if a dog is not registered. We fill out our dog's registration number, name - and parents registration numbers and names. I'm unsure if you could sneak a limited registered dog into a conformation show by entering him and winging it, however I guarantee that before or after it would be caught and any awards won if shown would be removed.

I mean no offense here when I say that if you purchased a dog who has no papers.... there is no responsible reason to even be engaging in this conversation. No responsible breeder would even consider a dog who has a lot more in common with a rescue dog or a mixed breed dog (no papers) than he does with the goldens going around the ring at shows.

Any pet people out there, when you purchase a puppy - make sure that you can register the dogs and the breeder is there to provide an avenue to a lot more in the breed, should your pup turn out very well. It would avoid heartbreak when you fall in love with a pup and he's everything a golden should be, but does not have papers to prove it.

Breeders who breed dogs with a very self-centered and short sighted view on the purpose of a dog breeder and what they do in life.... they have much in common with those people we all know about who have outdoor cats who are left intact and allowed to breed because everyone loves kittens....  A good breeder is not living in the moment and "right now". They are looking generations down the road. A dog is not breedable just because he's intact and beautiful. There's is more involved. With this breed, many of the dogs in the ring need to have good heads (shape, etc), good structure, and as a result of that good structure - good movement. Many dogs win or lose based on how they gait around the ring. And while you can hide bad structure with coat, movement is a tell all.

I know some thumb their nose about conformation and breed dogs anyway and say their dogs are better in every category, but many don't know what they don't know and what happens is litters produced that have fewer and fewer attributes that the parents or grand parents or great grandparents had. And sometimes if one or both of the parents have a number of faults, you see that undoing in a shorter period of time. <= Meaning, you love your pup and want another just like him.... the type of breeder willing to breed a dog just because he's intact may have a girlie who for all you know may not even be purebred. Or who has a number of issues which may absolutely show up in the pup you keep.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Howler said:


> KC/AKC/etc. should introduce a Wild Card rule where a champion of unknown origins can be awarded registration, or have their registration upgraded.


A dog cannot be shown or compete in anything to become a champion without specific registration.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

FinnTheFloof said:


> A dog cannot be shown or compete in anything to become a champion without specific registration.


I know, and that rule is part of the same system that was contrived to empower certain breeders. What I am suggesting is that there should be an Open competition - like we do for human tennis etc.

If it holds true that it is impossible for "outsider" dogs to win, and each pays their entry fees, why would anyone object?


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Howler said:


> I know, and that rule is part of the same system that was contrived to empower certain breeders. What I am suggesting is that there should be an Open competition - like we do for human tennis etc.
> 
> If it holds true that it is impossible for "outsider" dogs to win, and each pays their entry fees, why would anyone object?


Why compare an animal that might not be period to a standard it doesn’t apply to? If I have a yellow dog with drop ears, tell people it’s a golden, and decide to show it, what exactly am I doing? Nobody will breed to a dog with no pedigree


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Howler said:


> I know, and that rule is part of the same system that was contrived to empower certain breeders. What I am suggesting is that there should be an Open competition - like we do for human tennis etc.
> 
> If it holds true that it is impossible for "outsider" dogs to win, and each pays their entry fees, why would anyone object?


That is not the system we employ. And whether AKC rules were ever developed to 'empower certain breeders' those individuals are long gone and the system (stud books- that's what we're really talking about here) is what it is, the best tool we have for pedigrees.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

I mean, anyone can compete with their dogs, but the AKC specifically tries to keep its breeds pure by requiring the neutering of dogs for PAL or canine partners registrations. Maybe my golden retriever actually has a Labrador in its pedigree- why would people want to introduce Labrador or any other breed into the golden gene pool?


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

CooperRoo said:


> Exactly like you. I'm not interested in breeding the perfect lineage of GR. I have a great dog and think he would make great puppies with another healthy purebred GR. Period. I personally don't think it's wrong to want to do that. We are responsible pet parents and want to do it the most responsible way (hence, researching sites like this one.) Maybe we won't, at this point. This discussion has been very insightful. Thanks to everyone who replied.


Sorry, I missed making a final comment on my first post..."I did not breed my pup, even though she was very special in my mind! The reason I did not breed her is she would not improve the breed, if all breeders follow this foundation and are informed breeders (genetics, health clearances, etc.), can one imagine how great future dog could be...


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

3goldens2keep said:


> The reason I did not breed her is she would not improve the breed, if all breeders follow this foundation and are informed breeders (genetics, health clearances, etc.), can one imagine how great future dog could be...


If anyone needs proof look at a field trial today compared to trials 30+ years ago. Qualifying stakes far exceed what all age stakes used to be. 
A friend of mine has a video of the first National Amateur Championship. The tests were about what can be expected in a senior hunt test today, maybe less. Now we see many quadruple marks with multiple retired guns at distances up to 500 yards perhaps even more. Land and water blinds are equally demanding. 
How did the dogs get to that level? Improved training tools and methods are part of it. The other part is breeding the best of the best to the best of the best. The best of the best rarely happens to be the pup that the breeder kept.
The demands of field training also require dogs to be physically sound. Weaknesses will and have been reveled in field training, look up 'Exercise Induced Collapse" (EIC).


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

All this makes me uneasy. I wish Murphy had a better owner - someone like @SRW would have tested him way beyond my ability and clarified whether he should be in or out of the stud books 

As it happens I just don't know. Anyone can see he is in a different class to the other GRs in my neighbourhood, but he isn't being compared with his peers.

I exercise him with no official format or syllabus. He dodges me and runs circles around me in tennis, getting faster each day, and to be honest he is just a blur that I cannot tire.

I let him run in the fields on his own because I don't know what else to do. He looks stunning out there on his own. He runs to the high point of a hill and stacks himself for no apparent reason. He sniffs the air. He then points - like a Pointer should, I'm not sure for who. He then lowers himself to a sneaky Collie-like crawl before bolting like a Greyhound with hind legs around his front legs. He sounds like a thundering horse and catches the ****** rabbits, which is just incredible. Rabbits naturally dodge zig-zag to avoid being caught and when they do that he uses his front paws to swipe their feet from under them as though it was all planned. I just don't know.. are all of his good dog traits bad form for a proper GR? It's certainly not how anyone scores a GR in a ring.

I never see him "trot", so in almost a year of ownership I have never seen his gait clearly. That doesn't mean it is bad, it just means the pace of "trotting" is not to his preference. I did see his mum trot though, and I remember she glides spookily as though she was permanently in a ring. She was a lot calmer and a lot slimmer, maybe taller. I have run with him on a lead, but I cannot see what he looks like when he is that close. I just feel bad for him now. Have I doomed him to castration?


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

The linked video is of the famous King Buck, two time NFC. He was even on the federal duck stamp. The video is from the ninth series of the first National Amateur Retriever Championship in 1957. (King Buck did not win)
It is a very simple test by today's standards and Buck did very poorly. An SH level dog would have no problem with a test like this. Actually my 9 1/2 month old Lily has done much more difficult tests.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Howler said:


> All this makes me uneasy. I wish Murphy had a better owner - someone like SRW would have tested him beyond my ability and clarified whether he should be in or out of the stud books


I'm still learning, same as you. Sounds to me like Murphy is right where he belongs. The ribbons are for us, the dogs just love doing the work.


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## Deep South Goldens (Jan 7, 2022)

CooperRoo said:


> We have a pure-bred GR (male, now 11 months old) that is not registered from pedigreed parents (owners didn't file paperwork for his litter),and would like to breed him in the future. Anyone have any tips or suggestions on how to find a mate and/or how to navigate the process? We are new to GRs and are in love. He is a great dog.
> View attachment 888294


CKC Continental Kennel Club out of Louisiana will register based on breed standard. It is a bit of a process and you have to mail in multiple pictures and wait for their confirmation. 

I have had two litters of purebred (non registered) Golden pups. They come from my Uncle's farm line in Mississippi. he has been breeding them for 30 years now. A lady had one of my pups tested for purity. Came back 5th generation purebred Golden, so that is an option too if you are just trying to prove for buyers.

I sold mine for $600 a pup with no issues or papers. Just have good proof in photos and people are usually happy to save a little money. Mostly sold as family or duck dogs. I also had an AKC reg. male to breed with for both litters, that helps alot for peace of mind on my end and the buyers.


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

CooperRoo said:


> He is an amazing dog and I'd like to have one of his puppies. Honestly, I don't care about papers or registering him - just want to find a suitable mate.


We all have amazing dogs. This doesn't mean they should be bred.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

The Continental Kennel Club is a mill focused registry that is not recognized as a trusted registry any other registry FCI, CKC or AKC. These papers are not worth pursuing and hold basically the same values as anything someone can whip up on MS Word.


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## LA152 (Dec 31, 2020)

Deep South Goldens said:


> CKC Continental Kennel Club out of Louisiana will register based on breed standard. It is a bit of a process and you have to mail in multiple pictures and wait for their confirmation.
> 
> I have had two litters of purebred (non registered) Golden pups. They come from my Uncle's farm line in Mississippi. he has been breeding them for 30 years now. A lady had one of my pups tested for purity. Came back 5th generation purebred Golden, so that is an option too if you are just trying to prove for buyers.
> 
> I sold mine for $600 a pup with no issues or papers. Just have good proof in photos and people are usually happy to save a little money. Mostly sold as family or duck dogs. I also had an AKC reg. male to breed with for both litters, that helps alot for peace of mind on my end and the buyers.


I think registration based on photos and no pedigree tells you everything you need to know about what that registry is worth.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

“Farm line Goldens”….. so puppy farm line?


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## Deep South Goldens (Jan 7, 2022)

Emmdenn said:


> “Farm line Goldens”….. so puppy farm line?


 No they are bred on a farm. Not a puppy mill, they are just bred on a cattle farm


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## Deep South Goldens (Jan 7, 2022)

LA152 said:


> I think registration based on photos and no pedigree tells you everything you need to know about what that registry is worth.


Yeah I have not used them but just a recommendation. I have found a good amount of people don't care if they have papers as long as they can see the mother and father are obviously purebred. The people on this forum seem to care more haha


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## Jasmyne (Dec 28, 2021)

This is quite the debate and it is interesting to follow the conversations. 

I 100% agree the objective should be to better the breed. In some areas this non negotiable (ie health and genetics etc.) yet other areas are subjective. I love how passionate everyone is about their dogs and the work they put into them.

In my opinion a title isn’t the be all end all of what equals an all around fantastic dog or even what every dog owner is looking for. That would be like saying the only humans worth reproducing are wealthy ivy league educated multiple degree holders.

I am not saying breed your dog or don’t breed your dog. We all think our dog(s) are amazing and so we should because they absolutely are!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Jasmyne said:


> In my opinion a title isn’t the be all end all of what equals an all around fantastic dog or even what every dog owner is looking for. That would be like saying the only humans worth reproducing are wealthy ivy league educated multiple degree holders.


There is absolutely no comparison to people. We have the sense to choose our own ways, who we marry, if we will have children if we or our "mate" have a bogey in the closet....

A friend of mine has MS - which she inherited from her mom. My friend is only in her 30's and her type of MS is really bad. Even worse is she basically knew the whole time growing up that she was going to have MS. It was not a matter of if. It was when. So she and her guy have chosen not to have kids because MS is very hereditary mother to daughter. So she made a permanent decision along those lines.

As people we make these decisions for ourselves.

Our dogs if you left it to them would have puppies all the time - because they are insensible about family history and instincts drive them to breed when its time to breed. Everyone would have pit bull mixes if you left it to the dogs.


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## Jasmyne (Dec 28, 2021)

Megora said:


> There is absolutely no comparison to people. We have the sense to choose our own ways, who we marry, if we will have children if we or our "mate" have a bogey in the closet....
> 
> A friend of mine has MS - which she inherited from her mom. My friend is only in her 30's and her type of MS is really bad. Even worse is she basically knew the whole time growing up that she was going to have MS. It was not a matter of if. It was when. So she and her guy have chosen not to have kids because MS is very hereditary mother to daughter. So she made a permanent decision along those lines.
> 
> ...


I’m not saying let the dogs have a free for all or that we shouldn’t be doing our due diligence and making sound decisions. 
But it is exactly like people in the sense that dna and genetics aren’t always linear. You can put together the best match and not be guaranteed what you hope or expect.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Deep South Goldens said:


> I have found a good amount of people don't care if they have papers as long as they can see the mother and father are obviously purebred


People don't know what they don't know. Buying from someone who just put two dogs of the same breed together to make puppies is likely to produce the same "quality" of dog as they might get from a pet store puppy that came from a puppy mill. They think that by buying a "purebred" Golden retriever puppy (any Golden retriever puppy) they're automatically going to get a dog that looks like Tucker Budzyn or the dogs they see in the ring at Westminster. Or at the very least, they'll get a Golden with the general Golden look and personality. They don't even consider that behind that lovely Golden exterior might be a host of health issues that may cause their dog a great deal of pain or a very short life and cost themselves FAR more money than they saved by not buying that puppy from a "show breeder." One of the things that this Forum is always striving to do is to educate buyers on why buying from _responsible _breeders (with AKC-registered dogs, an established history of well-bred ancestors, and appropriate health clearances, and ideally enough champions behind them to ensure proper structure and appearance) is the best way to ensure they get the Golden of their dreams. 









I just want a regular puppy


I'm aware that there are many posts regarding show dogs vs pets but I felt as though I needed to write this post to help possibly educate someone or affirm their choices. When I began my search for a Golden Retriever puppy I had no idea the whirlwind journey it would take me on. Naively, my...




www.goldenretrieverforum.com









Why Buy Your Next Puppy From A Show Breeder?


I hear this more often than I'd like to admit: "I just want a pet, not a show dog." And it breaks my heart because it's just so wrong. As ...




dogopinionshere.blogspot.com


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Eugenics with dogs= good
Eugenics with people= Evil


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## Deep South Goldens (Jan 7, 2022)

I grew up in the country (middle of nowhere Alabama) . People use dogs for work, hunting, herding, or guarding. People are far less worried about 'health clearances' and 'pedigree'. People just want a good dog that will serve the purpose they bought it for, not break the bank, and to know/trust the family that bred it. 

I'm sure it was just like that back in Scotland, late 1800's/early 1900's before the breed was recognized. I am also not an expert on anything. Just speaking on my personal experience with the people I have dealt with. Also I have had DNA tests done to confirm what I already knew. I may get KO'd this site haha


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Deep South Goldens said:


> People use dogs for work, hunting, herding, or guarding. People are far less worried about 'health clearances' and 'pedigree'. People just want a good dog that will serve the purpose they bought it for, not break the bank, and to know/trust the family that bred it.


People who want dogs for work, hunting, herding, or guarding should be MORE concerned about health clearance, not less. A Golden can not “serve the purpose they bought it for” if it is crippled with hip or elbow displaysia, blind from PRA, or drops dead mid-retrieve due to SAS. They will absolutely “break the bank” if their beloved pet or hunting dog needs a $5000 hip surgery to live a (somewhat) pain free life. And there are hundreds of honest and kind people out there breeding their pet dogs without health clearances or an understanding of structure and producing puppids with a myriad of health or temperament issues because…”they don’t know what they don’t know.”

Everyone has to make their own choice about risks and benefits. I have no problem if someone knows and understands the potential risks of buying a dog from a back yard breeder who doesn’t do the health clearances proscribed by the GRCA Code of Ethics, and decides for whatever personal reason they have to roll the dice and take a chance on a less-than-well-bred dog. I have a bigger problem with breeders who either don’t take the time to educate themselves about the ethics of breeding healthy purebred dogs, or worse, know what they should be doing and decide not to bother and to pass those risks on to unsuspecting buyers…


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Deep South Goldens said:


> I grew up in the country (middle of nowhere Alabama) . People use dogs for work, hunting, herding, or guarding. People are far less worried about 'health clearances' and 'pedigree'. People just want a good dog that will serve the purpose they bought it for, not break the bank, and to know/trust the family that bred it.


They are the types that look at a dog that's got all kinds of issues structurally, etc.... and they think it's a valuable dog just because it's purebred. <= That actually is the majority of people I have spoken to around here who live out in the boonies and buy all their dogs from folks with puppies at the back the horse tracks..... they can look at a dog that is high in the rear, small headed, legs like a donkey, slab sided, etc.... and they think these are really gorgeous dogs.  

Likewise, they are the same people who never take the dogs to the vet.... so what you don't know is wrong with the dogs, doesn't exist....


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Deep South Goldens said:


> I grew up in the country (middle of nowhere Alabama) . People use dogs for work, hunting, herding, or guarding. People are far less worried about 'health clearances' and 'pedigree'. People just want a good dog that will serve the purpose they bought it for, not break the bank, and to know/trust the family that bred it.
> 
> I'm sure it was just like that back in Scotland, late 1800's/early 1900's before the breed was recognized. I am also not an expert on anything. Just speaking on my personal experience with the people I have dealt with. Also I have had DNA tests done to confirm what I already knew. I may get KO'd this site haha


The notion that dogs can be pets sharing our homes is an alien concept in many societies. I suggest most working dogs throughout history did not have good lives and were inhumanely put down when they became sick. I am sure that was a more common point of view in Victorian Scotland, more so than in contemporary Scotland.

There is also evidence of a divergence between Show Dogs and Working Dogs within the same breed.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Deep South Goldens said:


> I grew up in the country (middle of nowhere Alabama) . People use dogs for work, hunting, herding, or guarding. People are far less worried about 'health clearances' and 'pedigree'. People just want a good dog that will serve the purpose they bought it for, not break the bank, and to know/trust the family that bred it.


Part of the reason for health clearances is to prevent vet bills that will break the bank, not to mention the suffering of the dog.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

CooperRoo said:


> Sounds like I need to forget this idea.


That would be ideal, yes. 

Keep in mind pretty much ALL goldens are wonderful, beautiful and amazing in personality. Your dog isn't unique in that way. That's why we all love this breed so much! That said, since almost all of them are lovely little angels, that isn't a good reason to breed. Breeding should only be undertaken by those with plans to better the breed. To do that you need two fully health checked (OFA hips, elbows, eyes, heart by cardio, and DNA run) dogs that meet the standard fully (height, weight, color, conformation etc). Both of those dogs should ideally have earned at least 1 title in either conformation or hunt testing to show that they have something to contribute to the gene pool. Without those conditions met it's just backyard breeding, which is a very bad thing. 
It's pretty common that when people get their first golden, they fall so in love and think that no dog is like theirs and that they should have puppies to get more like that dog. Rest assured, when the day comes that you want a second golden you will be able to find one that is just as sweet and lovely as yours, from an experienced breeder.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Deep South Goldens said:


> I grew up in the country (middle of nowhere Alabama) . People use dogs for work, hunting, herding, or guarding. People are far less worried about 'health clearances' and 'pedigree'. People just want a good dog that will serve the purpose they bought it for, not break the bank, and to know/trust the family that bred it.


Sadly, the south of the US is not a shining representation of proper husbandry. I live in the north, and our rescues are constantly receiving truckload after truckload of dogs from the south from backyard breeders, animals allowed to roam outside, animals seized from bad conditions etc. They are almost always infested with heartworm and other parasites. 

That is not to say that everyone in the south is irresponsible and taking poor care of their dogs. We have members here who are quality breeders in the south. But it's very common in the south for dogs to be forced to live outside on a chain or in a kennel, not treated well etc. So many of the shelters there are kill shelters because of the massive problem. I have a friend in the south who (wasn't as responsible as she should have been) had an accidental litter of puppies and she kept the whole litter because it is so difficult (according to her) to find homes down there that will keep the dog the way it should be kept and she didn't want her mistake to make suffering for the pups.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hildae said:


> Both of those dogs should ideally have earned at least 1 title in either conformation or hunt testing to show that they have something to contribute to the gene pool. Without those conditions met it's just backyard breeding, which is a very bad thing.


Except, it is not that cut and dry, black and white, etc etc simple.

There are some top breeders out there who sometimes breed dogs who have no titles at all. Who produce pups who go on to win their CH titles in US and Canada, etc... And one or both parents eventually get their CH titles years after those litters were born.... 

As well, there are litters where one or both of the parents was well proven in show rings with a number of wins (ie AKC pointed, may even had one or more BOB wins under their belts), but bred before CH titles or retired without finishing. 

There are crappy breeders who have titled dogs who produce nothing you can see since all the pups go into pet homes (equivalent of putting all your ugly horses in the far back fields where people can't see them LOL).


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Megora said:


> But he has not registered. This means the only way he can be registered is by alternative registration requiring neutering.


Freeze the sperm first?!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Howler said:


> Freeze the sperm first?!


What?


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Megora said:


> Except, it is not that cut and dry, black and white, etc etc simple.
> 
> There are some top breeders out there who sometimes breed dogs who have no titles at all. Who produce pups who go on to win their CH titles in US and Canada, etc... And one or both parents eventually get their CH titles years after those litters were born....
> 
> ...


Definitely more than 1 title behind them. Health first, of course but I want to know there's working ability behind my dogs!


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Abeille said:


> Definitely more than 1 title behind them. Health first, of course but I want to know there's working ability behind my dogs!


Well… Titles on the bitch shouldn’t necessarily be mandatory - even for performance people. A lot of performance people don’t title their bitches until they are done breeding them. Our good buddy Matt is one that does that. Lol 

For conformation people, there are some who like to breed their bitches before finishing that CH. They are usually still pointed or may even have a major, but often, bitches look better after they have been bred. Unless you are super savvy with the AKC website and know how to look up a dog’s show record without paying for it, there’s no way to verify how many points the dog has.

Don’t get me wrong - I love titles and pedigrees chock full of them on both ends, but I would hate for someone to look at my own dog that I have been training, but haven’t titled yet and say “she doesn’t have any titles, I would look elsewhere.” On the one hand, I get it. Not very many dogs in her pedigree have performance titles, but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t have the ability. As a bitch owner, it’s difficult to balance showing/titling with breeding timing and decisions.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Howler said:


> Freeze the sperm first?!


Prob not a good idea- 
first, a good deal of backup info, reg info, DNA info is required to even make the appt to have a dog collected/frozen.. second, doing a frozen semen breeding is not inexpensive and I can't imagine anyone going to that expense or surgically inseminating a non-registered bitch, and thirdly, it's not cheap to collect/freeze/store it, and fourth, it's a very expensive way to breed.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Prism Goldens said:


> Prob not a good idea-
> first, a good deal of backup info, reg info, DNA info is required to even make the appt to have a dog collected/frozen.. second, doing a frozen semen breeding is not inexpensive and I can't imagine anyone going to that expense or surgically inseminating a non-registered bitch, and thirdly, it's not cheap to collect/freeze/store it, and fourth, it's a very expensive way to breed.


... if he is the prime specimen, and the rulebook says he needs neutering to prove it, then what alternative does a preservation breeder have?


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## LA152 (Dec 31, 2020)

Howler said:


> ... if he is the prime specimen, and the rulebook says he needs neutering to prove it, then what alternative does a preservation breeder have?


“Prime specimen” in what way? In what way is breed type being preserved by taking a dog with a nice phenotype or great hunting ability but forebears of unknown health, performance, or conformation and breeding him?


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

ArkansasGold said:


> Well… Titles on the bitch shouldn’t necessarily be mandatory - even for performance people. A lot of performance people don’t title their bitches until they are done breeding them. Our good buddy Matt is one that does that. Lol
> 
> For conformation people, there are some who like to breed their bitches before finishing that CH. They are usually still pointed or may even have a major, but often, bitches look better after they have been bred. Unless you are super savvy with the AKC website and know how to look up a dog’s show record without paying for it, there’s no way to verify how many points the dog has.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong - I love titles and pedigrees chock full of them on both ends, but I would hate for someone to look at my own dog that I have been training, but haven’t titled yet and say “she doesn’t have any titles, I would look elsewhere.” On the one hand, I get it. Not very many dogs in her pedigree have performance titles, but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t have the ability. As a bitch owner, it’s difficult to balance showing/titling with breeding timing and decisions.


There should be titles in the pedigree though. it’s been a while since I peeked at your dogs’ k9data pages but I’m pretty sure there’s something back there. Might be conformation and that’s just fine. I just like to see performance titles. I do all kinds of things that require a biddable temperament. That’s what I would personally be looking for in a puppy. We all just have different goals with our dogs and look for different things.

And our friend Matt…..I like some of his methods.…not all of course. The ones I’ve agreed with helped. I really don’t know how they got through raising 23 puppies at the same time. Seems like a lot to me.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Howler said:


> ... if he is the prime specimen, and the rulebook says he needs neutering to prove it, then what alternative does a preservation breeder have?


If he were not registered, a preservation breeder would not use him.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

LA152 said:


> “Prime specimen” in what way? In what way is breed type being preserved by taking a dog with a nice phenotype or great hunting ability but forebears of unknown health, performance, or conformation and breeding him?


All of those questions can be answered with tests.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Prism Goldens said:


> If he were not registered, a preservation breeder would not use him.


Then maybe someone will become fed up with AKC/KC and start a new breed that happens to look and behave exactly like GRs.

Would an unregistered GR be allowed to enter and win at SCAMPS?


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Howler said:


> Then maybe someone will become fed up with AKC/KC and start a new breed that happens to look and behave exactly like GRs.
> 
> Would an unregistered GR be allowed to enter and win at SCAMPS?


Do you even like Goldens?


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Howler said:


> All of those questions can be answered with tests.


Uh, someone can fact check me on this, but there’s no tests I’m aware of that will show you pictures of the ancestors (for conformation background), ancestors hunting ability or obedience skills(performance), or ancestors health testing. You can only test the individual dog.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

FinnTheFloof said:


> Uh, someone can fact check me on this, but there’s no tests I’m aware of that will show you pictures of the ancestors (for conformation background), ancestors hunting ability or obedience skills(performance), or ancestors health testing. You can only test the individual dog.


That is a ridiculous test. The dog that is breeding is the one that needs to conform, not their ancestors.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

ArkansasGold said:


> Do you even like Goldens?


What do you think you mean?

Anyway, it looks like SCAMPS answered my question with a photo:


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Howler said:


> That is a ridiculous test. The dog that is breeding is the one that needs to conform, not their ancestors.


Okay so humor you. Say you found a random, beautiful gold dog walking on the street one day. He miraculously passes all his health tests.
You breed him.

He throws a bunch of brindle, black, and agouti puppies, with sickle tails, prick ears, and blue eyes. Two of them fail their hips and half are fear reactive. He wasn’t actually gold, he just looked yellow and was actually sable.

Even if he was true recessive red, the puppies could still be all over the spectrum of type and temperament. 

Ancestors matter.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Tagrenine said:


> Okay so humor you. Say you found a random, beautiful gold dog walking on the street one day. He miraculously passes all his health tests.
> You breed him.
> 
> He throws a bunch of brindle, black, sable, agouti puppies, with sickle tails, prick ears, and blue eyes. Two of them fail their hips and half are fear reactive.
> ...


Exactly.
Also, you said “there’s tests for that” when someone brought up ancestors.


LA152 said:


> ...but forebears of unknown health, performance, or conformation and breeding him?





Howler said:


> All of those questions can be answered with tests.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Tagrenine said:


> Okay so humor you. Say you found a random, beautiful gold dog walking on the street one day. He miraculously passes all his health tests.
> You breed him.
> 
> He throws a bunch of brindle, black, and agouti puppies, with sickle tails, prick ears, and blue eyes. Two of them fail their hips and half are fear reactive. He wasn’t actually gold, he just looked yellow and was actually sable.
> ...


Surely that would have been prevented by DNA tests?

It is also massively unlikely because all the negative genes you cite would need to be recessive in that beautiful gold dog (e.g. the "carrier" of those genes), and hence for those genes to present in the pups they would also need to be present in the dam.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Howler said:


> That would have been prevented by DNA tests.


Do you think a DNA test can tell you the type of ears/tails/temperaments ancestors have?

They’re not specific at all. It’s why breeds they have different ear shapes can’t predict the shape for each litter. Border Collies have a huge variety of ear shapes and it can’t truly be predicted by parent phenotype or genotype.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Tagrenine said:


> Do you think a DNA test can tell you the type of ears/tails/temperaments ancestors have?


An analysis of DNA could show whether or not there are non-GR genes present. I don't know whether such tests are ever done on dogs.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Howler said:


> An analysis of DNA could show whether or not there are non-GR genes present. I don't know whether such tests are ever done on dogs.


Im a little confused, you want to find a random dog on the street, make sure it is a purebred golden retriever and this already part of the closed gene pool, and add it to the closed gene pool?
I truly mean no disrespect but I thought we were outcrossing with the point of improving genetic diversity in this scenario


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Tagrenine said:


> Im a little confused, you want to find a random dog on the street, make sure it is a purebred golden retriever and this already part of the closed gene pool, and add it to the closed gene pool?
> I truly mean no disrespect but I thought we were outcrossing with the point of improving genetic diversity in this scenario


Yes and Yes. I question whether the outcrossing is ideal when the process focusses more on papers and asset ownership than on genetics and achievements. It seems another thread has spawned on this specific detail


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

I think I linked it before, but a purebred outcross for only a single generation is very limited in the overall contribution to the breed. The Dalmatian outcross was very successful and it still took (decades??) for the AKC to register these dogs because of the pointer used to produce technically did not make them purebred.
The answer is that there is no east answer for improving genetic diversity and maintaining everything what they Golden is, but the plus side is that our tools for comparison and analysis of genomes means we might be better able to make these decisions


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Howler said:


> What do you think you mean?
> 
> Anyway, it looks like SCAMPS answered my question with a photo:
> 
> View attachment 888492


No one that actually cares about the Golden Retriever breed with even a semblance of passion would advocate for outcrossing to unregistered purebreds.

So, either you’re wrong and won’t admit it, so you’re hanging on to this “what if unicorns are real?” thing, or you’re trolling and having a laugh at us.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Abeille said:


> There should be titles in the pedigree though. it’s been a while since I peeked at your dogs’ k9data pages but I’m pretty sure there’s something back there. Might be conformation and that’s just fine. I just like to see performance titles. I do all kinds of things that require a biddable temperament. That’s what I would personally be looking for in a puppy. We all just have different goals with our dogs and look for different things.
> 
> And our friend Matt…..I like some of his methods.…not all of course. The ones I’ve agreed with helped. I really don’t know how they got through raising 23 puppies at the same time. Seems like a lot to me.


As far as Matt goes, I just meant that he hasn’t titled Rae yet, but if I was into BCs, I would totally take a Rae puppy. Bridget doesn’t typically title her dogs until they’re older, which is why we haven’t seen her out campaigning a Golden in a long time.

Anyway, you know that I agree with you about performance titles in the pedigree. I just wanted to make the counter point that depending on the age of the immediate breeding pair, titles on them shouldn’t be a go/no-go decision.

On Eevee’s pedigree, her mom’s side is pretty much all conformation. Her sire has an RA and maybe a BN or CD now (there’s no telling if his k9data has been updated), but really Great Grandpa Chaos is the main dog with titles on both ends in her pedigree.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

ArkansasGold said:


> No one that actually cares about the Golden Retriever breed with even a semblance of passion would advocate for outcrossing to unregistered purebreds.


I argue the reverse is true. Continuous inbreeding will ultimately shrink the gene pool and devastate the breed. There needs to be some leakage at the boundary to maintain healthy stock of genes, and ironically that probably happens in the form of "cheat" breeders misreporting parentage.

Those that actually cared about St John's Water Dog made a concerted effort to rescue that breed by crossing with Labradors. Was it right to subsequently designate the breed extinct, or should breeders be allowed to register the descendants of the St.Johns-Lab cross?









St. John's water dog - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





With any breed there are some good unregistered and part-registered dogs that are healthier than their fully-registered cousins. I am not saying to outcross randomly - I am saying that the way to identify champions is to allow open competition. I am saying that there should be a rigorous and tested pathway for unregistered and part-registered to enter the gene pool.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

No one here is advocating for inbreeding... We are advocating for conscientious and responsible outcrossing. This breed is not so doomed that you can't outcross to another nice (registered!) dog. You are bringing in red herrings with this nonsense about the St. John's Water Dog.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

This whole thread is baffling.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Abeille said:


> I just like to see performance titles. I do all kinds of things that require a biddable temperament. That’s what I would personally be looking for in a puppy. We all just have different goals with our dogs and look for different things.


Biddable temperament isn't the only thing though. Soundness, confidence, flash and flair, springs on the heels, joy-joy-joy and eagerness when "playing" with the owner - the list goes on and on. Add to that the pride that comes with bringing a dog into the ring that LOOKS like the whole package.

Heeling should feel like magic with a golden retriever. And there's just nothing like setting up in front of open or utility jumps and knowing your dog can fly over those jumps with ease. <= That's not something you get with every conformation bred golden. And since most conformation dogs do not ever go further than puppy class level obedience, it's tough to know which dogs can give you _all of the things_. That said, I do believe most golden retrievers have the ability to be wonderful in obedience. You can start with basics that you get from any golden and build it all up with the right conditioning and training methods. All the more so if you are a talented trainer. <= Majority of dogs I see in obedience, I see dogs of other breeds that we'd probably consider to be subpar if they were goldens.... but they go very far, very fast, and very big because they have good trainers with big tool boxes working with them.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

@Prism Goldens; lets compare your nervous laugh to words of The Golden Retriever Club

"_Popular sires, or male dogs, that are used to produce large numbers of puppies, are one of the biggest contributors to a reduction in genetic diversity, an increase in inbreeding and elevated levels of genetic diseases within a breed. These dogs are often chosen because they have good characteristics, such as traits associated with good health. *Breeders will use these dogs because they wish to improve the breed, but excessive use of any males can be detrimental to the overall population*.

High levels of inbreeding can impact the health of individual dogs, as it increases the chances of a dog being at risk for both known and *unknown inherited disorders*. It could also have an impact on the breed as a whole, for example, a reduction in litter size and fertility_."

Taking on board the above statements I took the time to look at list of pups produced by one champion in Murphy's paternal history and it became too onerous to count the number of pups that sire had produced. According to KC there were 37 registered litters in the UK, and these champion dogs tour globally so the number of litters is almost certainly much higher than that. *The evidence shows hundreds of puppies from one sire! *

How big is that dog's family now? Can you honestly reflect back on what The Golden Retriever Club says about excessive use of any males and tell me its all OK?

I'm quite glad that Murphy was crossed with an apparently unrelated line, but I'm not completely at ease because when I looked on his mother's side there is another globetrotting sire with about 22 litters known to KC in the UK, indicating to me that this high use of "pretty" males is unavoidable practice among preservation breeders. What is even more bizarre is that the two sires I have just now cherry picked happen to look like twins.

Murphy looks a clone of his dad, and we can set this all aside with a broad brushed statement like "to be expected because they are all GRs" but its not that simple - none of the dogs discussed here look like the GRs on leads we see in the parks. There is a difference in colour, frame, head shape, etc.

I did notice however that further back the in the heritage there were discernibly shorter hair shaping the ears - was it the fashion to trim the ears, or is there some actually visible genetic diversity?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Overuse of a stud dog is not the same thing as using dogs who have no registration, no health history, no anything- which is what you appear to be a proponent of. 
My laugh- not a nervous laugh- was to the statement around allowing in the gene pool regardless of registration, via open champion competitions, among presumably non-registered dogs. I laugh because even IF we did such competitions in any serious way ( don't see your UK mix breed thing as serious), no serious breeder would use these dogs. Ever.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Prism Goldens said:


> Overuse of a stud dog is not the same thing as using dogs who have no registration, no health history, no anything- which is what you appear to be a proponent of.


These are the two extremes of one sliding scale. If we want to arrive at a sustainable average then we will need to compromise.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

K9-Design said:


> This whole thread is baffling.


Agreed, how did we go from the original post to THIS?


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

ArkansasGold said:


> As far as Matt goes, I just meant that he hasn’t titled Rae yet, but if I was into BCs, I would totally take a Rae puppy. Bridget doesn’t typically title her dogs until they’re older, which is why we haven’t seen her out campaigning a Golden in a long time.
> 
> Anyway, you know that I agree with you about performance titles in the pedigree. I just wanted to make the counter point that depending on the age of the immediate breeding pair, titles on them shouldn’t be a go/no-go decision.
> 
> On Eevee’s pedigree, her mom’s side is pretty much all conformation. Her sire has an RA and maybe a BN or CD now (there’s no telling if his k9data has been updated), but really Great Grandpa Chaos is the main dog with titles on both ends in her pedigree.


I don't know if I'd want one of his pups or not. They just really aren't my thing. I know who Bridget is but I don't follow what she's doing. Pretty sure I saw her at NOC a few years ago. 

I thought Eevee had a few performance titles back there. And that's what I mean. You can see that you should have a better chance at a biddable dog. I do a lot of standing back and watching. I have seen dogs I like and didn't like and I just try to remember. I keep it all to myself unless I have a question about it or someone asks me something specific about a dog I've seen. Pilot has a lot of dogs with titles on both ends in his background. I just got very lucky. I don't imagine that's super common.


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## Littlefitbit56 (Aug 30, 2021)

pawsnpaca said:


> Welcome to the forum! Many here are deeply invested in the preservation of a breed we all love passionately, and part of that passion is wanting only Goldens who meet the breed standard and who have a long history of health clearances to send their genes into the next generation. This is not about whether your dog is registered or whether he is a wonderful family member or a handsome representative of his breed, but only that without health clearances (not only for your dog, and the dog you choose to breed to your dog, but on the majority of those dogs' ancestors as well) you run the risk of producing puppies that will only bring heartache to their families.
> 
> That said... if you are determined that your dog will be used to create puppies...please do what you can to ensure both he _and any female you breed him to _at the very least have the four core health clearances proscribed by the GRCA Code of Ethics. These include a hip x-ray done at no younger than 24 months of age and submitted to OFA (with a final rating of Fair, Good or Excellent), an elbow x-ray submitted at the same time (and judged to be "normal" by OFA), a heart exam done by a cardiologist (not a regular vet) and submitted to OFA for inclusion in their database, and yearly eye exams done by an ophthalmologist (and again, submitted to OFA for inclusion in the database). These tests are recommended because Goldens as a breed are prone to hip and elbow dysplasia, as well as several eye and heart diseases, and you definitely do NOT want to pass those on to a new generation. A simple physical by your vet will NOT be sufficient to tell you if your dog has hip dysplasia or a heart issue, and even if your dog is 100% sound, if his ancestors didn't have their clearances (or the DNA tests that are also recommended to test for the genes for a variety of serious and sometimes fatal diseases) then you don't know what is swimming around in his gene pool. Since it sounds like your boy likely came from a breeder who did not follow the Code of Ethics, then your chances of your boy carrying such genes are MUCH higher than if you had bought him from a responsible breeder.
> 
> ...


 I am new here, but not new to GR. My husband and I have trained two GRs for National Ski Patrol (NSP) Avalanche Search and Rescue and one through CARDA SAR. To say we love this breed is an understatement. As our sons have grown and left the nest, we find ourselves with more time to dedicate to breeding Golden's and are investigating the proper process to follow that will due this breed justice. Your post is thoughtful and full of information, and I truly appreciate the time you took to educate a newbie, including me. You rock! Thank you!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Howler said:


> "_Popular sires, or male dogs, that are used to produce large numbers of puppies, are one of the biggest contributors to a reduction in genetic diversity, an increase in inbreeding and elevated levels of genetic diseases within a breed. These dogs are often chosen because they have good characteristics, such as traits associated with good health. *Breeders will use these dogs because they wish to improve the breed, but excessive use of any males can be detrimental to the overall population*._


Do you understand why excessive use of any males can be detrimental?

Best way I can explain based on observation... if you have 10 breeders in a state like Michigan and all 10 breeders typically are the best of the best and people who can absolutely trust each other to not be cutting corners, cheating, breeding dogs who have serious problems, etc....

What happens if all those 10 breeders decide to use the same stud dog? Let's say they all decide to breed to the same dog who has longevity, health (can be separate from longevity), looks + track record (might be a young dog but already an OS based on all his kids who have gotten their CH title), etc. etc.

All 10 breeders have technically improved their programs by using this boy. He may add longevity, health, and type to what they are breeding.

But go 2 years down the road and all 10 breeders have to seriously go greater distance to find stud dogs who are not related to their dogs. That can stink because instead of using dogs from people they know and trust + dogs they have seen in person... they have to go out and use dogs who while CH titled, etc, are a little more unknown to them and may have more hidden issues.

^^^^ The way you combat that is by breeders in an area being careful and pragmatic - and paying attention to what's out there vs breeding to what's convenient, local, and what everyone else is using. 

It is NOT breeders deciding to use mutts for who knows what reason. 

And gotta add here - low COI doesn't mean "better" in all absolute cases.

The boy we had with the lowest COI was our Sammy years ago. His COI was .44%. This was the dog who had entropion (eye issues) + he had 3 bites before he was even 2 (temperament issues). He was barely 23" which was undersized for this breed and his proportions were way off. His coat (texture) was more like a spaniel coat - very soft and silky, and incorrect for the breed. He did have gut issues most of his early life and major league fatty tumors when he got older. He died from cancer (in old age).

Was he an ugly dog? Nope. He was gorgeous. But there were definitely things about him which no breeder would have wanted to touch because he had NOTHING to offer them.

Most breeders who are not just breeding crap to sell to pet people who just want a generic purebred dog.... they are working to improve or maintain a whole of things. When you do not care and just breed whatever, that's when the wheels come off the bus and you start either dealing with or ignoring more and more faults in what you have to breed.

Things like headsets, pigment, dental/teeth, toplines, tailsets - all are things which are difficult to maintain if you are not specifically weeding out dogs who have nothing to offer when it concerns all of these things. But add to that list all the other issues that creep back into this breed with careless breeding - serious faults and serious health problems. Breeding to generic dogs with unknown backgrounds will NOT do anything other than make puppies to sell.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Hildae said:


> Agreed, how did we go from the original post to THIS?


Howler took us here in not understanding why this unregistered dog would not be sought after. 
And here's the other thing- a dog might appear to be a 'clone' of an ancestor to a pet person but appear totally different to a student of the breed.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Abeille said:


> I don't know if I'd want one of his pups or not. They just really aren't my thing.


BCs in general aren't my thing. LOL That was more of an "if they were" kind of thing. 



Abeille said:


> I thought Eevee had a few performance titles back there.


She does, I just wouldn't consider her pedigree to be a "performance" pedigree, if you know what I mean. I do think watching dogs work - when possible - is even better as far assessing working ability and attitude. But the caveat to that is that the trainer on the other end of the lead can affect a dog's working attitude.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Prism Goldens said:


> Howler took us here in not understanding why this unregistered dog would not be sought after.
> And here's the other thing- a dog might appear to be a 'clone' of an ancestor to a pet person but appear totally different to a student of the breed.


Not quite.

I am perplexed by the support for a _Limited Registration_ category that is selected by the breeder, when each breeder applies different standards and nobody defines which breeders are qualified to make that judgement - can you explain the logic of this inconsistency?

The consequence of this is that we have very good specimens barred from breeding, and very poor specimens breeding - can you explain the logic of this inconsistency?

A number of contributors in this thread have taken a hard line on defending the influence of the breeders (even though not all breeders are equal), and simultaneously in other threads sympathise with the owners of competition winning dogs that are barred from breeding by their breeder - can you explain the logic of this inconsistency?

The argument I present in this thread is predicated on the assumption that there would be support for a logical removal of inconsistencies, which would require the application of consistent rules encompassing all specimens including that of the OP. That does not mean I think the OP's GR should breed (I don't know), but I think there should be a fair measure that the owner can use and understand.

It is quite clear that the consensus is to maximise influence of subjective decisions among breeders as opposed to embracing any scientific quantifiable or auditable measure.


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## three retirees (Aug 31, 2018)

Some history of no papers goldens I found while looking for a older golden for us. 
1- Golden at 5 years old blind aka *canine progressive retinal atrophy* (PRA)
2- Golden at 7 years old both rear hips have hip dysplasia $5,000.00 per hip to correct.

Sure you can breed a No papers Golden, but is this the best thing for the animal or is $money$ the only reason?

Three retirees


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## margiecrable (Dec 1, 2011)

LJack said:


> You probably can’t. “It was a surprise” is not anywhere near a reason to register. It they were not registered, there is a reason like the parents are limited or unregistered themselves.
> 
> Can I ask why you want to breed?


Please consider doing research before breeding. Especially if your parent Goldens aren’t registered.
I don’t pretend to know the history of your particular dog and I understand you love your golden… But when you don’t have pertinent information and pairing dogs you are dealing with a very deep unknown.

breeders study the background not only with the health clearances but also the lineage of the parents grandparents and five generations back or more. If you’re honestly thinking of going forward on this put yourself in the shoes of the recipients of your puppies.

if you cannot guarantee that a puppy won’t have hereditary genetic defaults, seizures, diseases I think you should stop and reconsider. I believe everyone can relate to heartbreak, and I know that would not be your intention. Knowledge is power knowledge can be successful or stop tons of problems.
Hoping you make the best decision! Good luck!


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

three retirees said:


> Some history of no papers goldens I found while looking for a older golden for us.
> 1- Golden at 5 years old blind aka *canine progressive retinal atrophy* (PRA)
> 2- Golden at 7 years old both rear hips have hip dysplasia $5,000.00 per hip to correct.
> 
> ...


Points well taken on the older dogs you found, but the decision to breed dogs is made before reaching those ages. Its a moot point when the champion has sired hundreds of pups by the age of 3.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Howler said:


> I am perplexed by the support for a _Limited Registration_ category that is selected by the breeder, when each breeder applies different standards and nobody defines which breeders are qualified to make that judgement - can you explain the logic of this inconsistency?
> 
> The consequence of this is that we have very good specimens barred from breeding, and very poor specimens breeding - can you explain the logic of this inconsistency?


You are making assumptions that are not backed up by facts.

Majority of pet owners out there are NOT the best judge on whether their dogs are good specimens for breeding or not.  Not sure if things are the same over there in UK - I'm sure @annef would have input on that. However, here in the US there has been a huge increase of pet owners who lack basic knowledge about the breeds they own. If you do not know anything about a breed and information goes in one ear and out the other, you are not qualified to breed.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Megora said:


> You are making assumptions that are not backed up by facts.
> 
> Majority of pet owners out there are NOT the best judge on whether their dogs are good specimens for breeding or not.  Not sure if things are the same over there in UK - I'm sure @annef would have input on that. However, here in the US there has been a huge increase of pet owners who lack basic knowledge about the breeds they own. If you do not know anything about a breed and information goes in one ear and out the other, you are not qualified to breed.


I am not disputing that. I feel there needs to be a framework that people can apply, similar to the flowchart presented in the other thread, but with a pathway that is open (even if generally unsurmountable).


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Howler said:


> Not quite.
> 
> I am perplexed by the support for a _Limited Registration_ category that is selected by the breeder, when each breeder applies different standards and nobody defines which breeders are qualified to make that judgement - can you explain the logic of this inconsistency?
> 
> ...


It may feel inconsistent to you but to a breeder who has worked decades at preserving the "value" of the pedigrees I've been entrusted with initially and have improved (imo) since, it is only MY choice whether I can trust someone to work equally as diligently as I have these last 40 years.. if I cannot trust that they will protect the lineage, I don't give full, for any price (and there is a great post I made on one of the many posts about the Denzils program and the different paths one pedigree can take- I will try to find it later). On that choice I get to make, I am more than willing to change my mind if someone seems to be a good person to entrust with the hard work I've done up til their dog, and I do do that now and then... but again that's a 'person' thing. 

I agree with you on the one member whose dog is on limited, regardless of his accomplishments/clearances- that too is a 'person' thing- though in this case, I suspect the breeder is the one who's off their game, not the owner. That's a thing in every breed- we all have nut jobs- those people who may accomplish things w their produce but are so volatile or so unreasonably out there we don't look forward to seeing them!
The fair measure the OP could see, and value, is that he is not a breed expert, does not know where his dog fits/doesn't the Breed Standard, and his dog is not registered. So while I am sure he's a handsome dog and is beloved, he doesn't have the bare minimum in play- registration (thereby proof of his race) and he has no clearances, or history, or knowledge about his pedigree such that it is.
Even among dogs who have multiple titles, championships even, a thick and deep health history pedigree wise- unfortunately we are a breed whose breeders sometimes lack confidence and follow the crowd- that's how we end up with bottlenecks geographically especially. There's a young dog here in my area that I think every breeder I know save one and myself have used... his grandsire, same thing.. we've got an issue when people don't breed for more than who is winning and who's being used. Yet there are many many well qualified, titled, clearanced dogs who maybe get used two or three times in a lifetime.. I wish I understood what I interpret as a lack of confidence or an inability to see beyond what everyone else is doing.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Here's the post I was thinking of- a comparison on how one "totally unattractive to an educated fancier" stud dog stacks up when different paths were taken (I just pasted it here from the original thread, no need to keep at it on this breeder, whose site I looked at today and who does appear to be making solid changes- I am glad for that- and it was posted in response to a comment I made about using k9data for study, to see how clear it can be where a pedigree takes a turn south, and how 3 gens down it can be related animals who bear no resemblance to one another just because of those choices) :

Mostly what I meant was directed at the new breeders learning to see how pedigrees can shift- it was a suggestion of an exercise. Exercises are fabulous training tools for humans. K9data holds myriad exercises! Ex: go back from your dog to one of the originals.
Ex: go back from your dog to ggrands and learn all you can about them, their offspring, the animals they were bred to.
So what crossed my mind here was how pedigrees shift.

Five generation pedigree: Harley's Maverick Dawg is his sire.* note- the dog we were discussing, Hunter Hammon

Titles are how we know a dog was owned by someone involved in the breed. He has an involved group in his 5th generation.
On the dog Hunter Hammon, his 5th has nothing on the stud dog side at all. The dogs represented there we know nothing about. The dam’s side
is ever slightly better, but not much. When I see pedigrees like this, I always go look at the last titled dog- Pedigree: BIS AmCan CH. Allsgold Fyreglo First In Line JH in this case- and follow a more traditional path. Pedigree: Can CH Creeksidefrm's All That Jazz CD is one such dog. He has the same dog in the same position as the Hunter dog, but all the choices made around the dog on this path were considerably more thoughtful. It shows in the pedigree of the offspring generations down and in their depth of clearances.

Here’s a different path- same position w that last titled dog- Pedigree: NCG's Awrey Fowl Weather Friend and you can see that while there was no focus on conformation titles, there is definitely a focus on the field and depth of clearances when looking at this dog’s pedigree.

One dog can go a lot of directions. All of them do not end up in an animal who ought to contribute to the gene pool. The free stud dog method imo can not lend itself to the best anything- show dog, hunting companion or beloved family pet.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

In the UK if both parents are not registered, then the puppies cannot be registered with the KC. Many years ago an unregistered dog could be registered if in the opinion of three ch show judges it was typical of the breed (however pretty sure that does not exist now). The disadvantages of using unregistered dogs or buying an unregistered dog are:
No guarantee of pedigree and no way of checking it so no proof they are pure bred puppies
Parents will not be health tested (hips scored, elbow scored, eye tested and PLA scored)
Parents may be bred under or over age ( puppies not registered from a dam under 1 or over 8)
Dam may have had too many litters for the puppies to be registered (all dams limited to 4 litters and only 2 caesarians and no puppies registered within a year of a previous litter)

Annef


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