# any clicker pros here?



## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

i just bought a clicker for jake...hes 10 months old, and still isnt learning like i think he should. i cant afford obedience, im in college. (i know the importance, as i have been consistently reminded...my parents pay for everything right now...i dont have a job here..and dont plan on getting one, as i dont have the time between jake and classes...its hard to ask the parents for more)

where do i start? tell me everything you know!! please!!


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

I am not so sure clicker training is something that can easily be learned on your on. Don;t take that as gospel cause I am not a fan of it but I would think you would need someone there to teach you how to be effective with it. Good luck with the training and college.

Hooch


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

There are also training book out there on it..I'm not a fan of it either... as a matter of fact tried it with Maggie and every time you clicked the clicker she would snap at it.


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

I used the clicker with boy of my dogs and it worked great. Accuracy is the key. Say the command, when they get it right, click immediatley and then deliver the treat. The dog has to learn that the click means a treat is coming so be ready. When you first start out you have to click for when they start to do what you want until they learn it. I found it to be pretty effective. Good luck.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Bailey & Bentley said:


> I used the clicker with boy of my dogs and it worked great. Accuracy is the key. Say the command, when they get it right, click immediatley and then deliver the treat. The dog has to learn that the click means a treat is coming so be ready. When you first start out you have to click for when they start to do what you want until they learn it. I found it to be pretty effective. Good luck.


ok that makes sense, thank you for the positive input.


did you have a "trainer teaching you how to do it"? or did you learn how to do it on your own..?


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

foreveramber said:


> ok that makes sense, thank you for the positive input.
> 
> 
> did you have a "trainer teaching you how to do it"? or did you learn how to do it on your own..?


 
No I started out with obedience training classes and that is where I learned it. For my second dog I didn't bother taking him to classes because I already knew the commands and how to use the clicker. If you have any questions at all feel free to ask me and I will try to help you the best I can.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Katie and Dusty is another good resource...


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Bailey & Bentley said:


> No I started out with obedience training classes and that is where I learned it. For my second dog I didn't bother taking him to classes because I already knew the commands and how to use the clicker. If you have any questions at all feel free to ask me and I will try to help you the best I can.


are there special commands you use with the clicker??

he knows sit, laydown, shake, and sometimes stay. i mainly bought it to see if i could teach him to heal.. i cant stand the gentle leader..its all thats working right now...weve tried everything from harness to prong and i just want to use a NORMAL COLLAR!!!


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

foreveramber said:


> are there special commands you use with the clicker??
> 
> he knows sit, laydown, shake, and sometimes stay. i mainly bought it to see if i could teach him to heal.. i cant stand the gentle leader..its all thats working right now...weve tried everything from harness to prong and i just want to use a NORMAL COLLAR!!!


I think you can use whatever commands that you want. I personally have never been very successful in heal area. I did use the clicker to teach them to stop on a walk when approaching a street to cross. I also use prong collars. The tricks and commands are endless. I would just suggest bringing the clicker on your walk. When teaching them heal bring them towards you and slow them down, then click and give a treat. Maybe you could practice in the house/yard, it gets a little tricky because you only have two hands.:


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Clicker fanatic here...

First you have to LOAD your dog. 

Spend a week doing nothing but click, treat... over and over... with no pattern other than ALWAYS treating after every click.

Then start by clicking some random small behavior he naturally does... and you have to click WHILE he does it- not after. 

No matter what- NEVER click and NOT treat, even if you click something bad by accident.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

For the record I am clicking Sabrina- loading her- no behaviors yet. I will start behaviors tomorrow most likely. Usually once I teach 'touch' (my hand) and the light goes off in their lemon brains- they learn a new behavior in a few minutes. The only limit is your creativity!


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

thank you everyone! i think i understand...it sounds easy! we shall see!


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

foreveramber said:


> thank you everyone! i think i understand...it sounds easy! we shall see!


 
Good luck, let us know how you make out!


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

dammit!!! the clicker broke.

i suppose we will start tomorow. i bought the "nice" one too...GRR!!

any chance you guys know what "brand" of clicker you have?


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

I just don;t get the click and then treat. mine will do anything for a treat. Why have the other step and then have them learn to do it without the clicker? I mean surely you are not walking around every where with a clicker and treats. Really not trying to be a smarta** here I just never got it.


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> I just don;t get the click and then treat. mine will do anything for a treat. Why have the other step and then have them learn to do it without the clicker? I mean surely you are not walking around every where with a clicker and treats. Really not trying to be a smarta** here I just never got it.


LOL. Mine will go crazy for a treat too, but half the time they would just sit and stare at me. I would only use the clicker until they learned the command. We don't use the clicker anymore, those days are over, but I was surprised to see how well it worked for us. They both learned a lot. I can see you point though. I know other people who won't bother with it either. You either love it or you hate it.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

The click and treat is for them to learn to associate the SOUND of the click with the treat, hooch.

Once they have THAT down... then you can click ANY behavior, such as sneezing, stretching after a nap, etc- and put it to a command! 

There are tons of things that the only way to teach them practically is with a clicker- for example Rookie and the famous Grease video. It's virtually impossible to train Freestyle without a clicker or using clicker methods.

No we don't carry a clicker all the time! Once the dog learns the behavior, you don't have to click it anymore, though I like to sometimes to keep them on their toes 

I didn't take it as ********!

Oh, and I use the cheapie Petsmart clickers... they never break


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

foreveramber said:


> dammit!!! the clicker broke.
> 
> i suppose we will start tomorow. i bought the "nice" one too...GRR!!
> 
> any chance you guys know what "brand" of clicker you have?


 
Oh no, that didn't take very long. The one I have my trainer gave to me. It has a cord that you can carry around your wrist so you don't always have to hold it in your hand and it has a round raised button that you press. I know Petco sells the aluminum ones that are really loud. My nails never really liked that one!:


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

It really isn't that I hate it my old brain just doesn;t wrap around the idea of it and people who love it have tried to explain it to me and maybe I am just too dense.

So it is just a natural progression of it no retraining?

Hooch


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

BTW C has done almost all Keira's training with it. She has some work to do in some areas, but the dog knows countless behaviors with actually very little time put in by a first time ever dog owner. It definitely works- but that doesn't mean it's for everyone. 

Even a deaf dog can be trained with the concept- using instead a flashing light or a vibrating (NOT shocking) collar that can be made to vibrate at the right moment with a remote


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Even a deaf dog can be trained with the concept- using instead a flashing light or a vibrating (NOT shocking) collar that can be made to vibrate at the right moment with a remote


Now this I could see.

Hooch


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> It really isn't that I hate it my old brain just doesn;t wrap around the idea of it and people who love it have tried to explain it to me and maybe I am just too dense.
> 
> So it is just a natural progression of it no retraining?
> 
> Hooch


maybe a way to explain it would be that since you can't treat immediately all the time, the clicker is an easy way to tell the dog it is doing what it should, because he KNOWS that after he hears that sound, he gets a treat. for example...when teaching a recall, you click once the dog starts moving towards you, he hears the sound and will continue to come toward you, to recieve his treat. if you hadnt used the clicker and he hadnt heard the sound, he could become more easily distracted before he gets to you, and could run towards the distraction..

i read a lot about it in the past hour or so.  it seems like a good way to keep the dog focused on YOU. which is EXACTLY what i need. i have the hardest time keeping him focused...even if i have treats.


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

foreveramber said:


> maybe a way to explain it would be that since you can't treat immediately all the time, the clicker is an easy way to tell the dog it is doing what it should, because he KNOWS that after he hears that sound, he gets a treat. for example...when teaching a recall, you click once the dog starts moving towards you, he hears the sound and will continue to come toward you, to recieve his treat. if you hadnt used the clicker and he hadnt heard the sound, he could become more easily distracted before he gets to you, and could run towards the distraction..
> 
> i read a lot about it in the past hour or so.  it seems like a good way to keep the dog focused on YOU. which is EXACTLY what i need. i have the hardest time keeping him focused...even if i have treats.


You are right. I do feel that they are more focused.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Bailey & Bentley said:


> You are right. I do feel that they are more focused.


cool...everything i have read seems to aim at the focus thing. in complete honesty, i think he has ADD-isons...HA!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

its great for timing- so super for fast paced sports like agility (click for contacts, etc)


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Also the dog starts thinking and OFFERING behaviors, trying them on trying to earn a click. That is my fave part to watch!


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

foreveramber said:


> maybe a way to explain it would be that since you can't treat immediately all the time, the clicker is an easy way to tell the dog it is doing what it should, because he KNOWS that after he hears that sound, he gets a treat. for example...when teaching a recall, you click once the dog starts moving towards you, he hears the sound and will continue to come toward you, to recieve his treat. if you hadnt used the clicker and he hadnt heard the sound, he could become more easily distracted before he gets to you, and could run towards the distraction..
> 
> i read a lot about it in the past hour or so.  it seems like a good way to keep the dog focused on YOU. which is EXACTLY what i need. i have the hardest time keeping him focused...even if i have treats.


That makes sense. And learning today it didn;t have to be taught to come off the clicker help. I am not only old school I am old. ROFL

Hooch


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> That makes sense. And learning today it didn;t have to be taught to come off the clicker help. I am not only old school I am old. ROFL
> 
> Hooch


i like the thought of it...we'll see if it works. you are right when you say its a pain to add one more step, only to re-train without it later. which is why i hate the gentle leader and like the idea of this clicker stuff


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Gentle leaders, prongs, etc to me just allow you to handle your dog without training him. Sometimes that's needed, but nothing replaces actual training- whatever method you use. I do think the prong can be used to actively train, though, something I don't think about harnesses and head collars.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> It really isn't that I hate it my old brain just doesn;t wrap around the idea of it and people who love it have tried to explain it to me and maybe I am just too dense.
> 
> So it is just a natural progression of it no retraining?
> 
> Hooch


: No Hooch, you are not dense! I began training years ago with the old method of snap and correct. Then I was taught clicker training some years back at a seminar on free style obedience. I found it fascinating and soooo easy to teach the dog what you want it to do. But ----- the cross-over from conventional training to clicker is not an easy one! I clicker trained Jazz and she is pretty reliable now at 18 months. The first thing I did (after loading the clicker) was to teach her to watch me. She learned that in about 20 minutes. You can teach a dog to heal with the clicker but there are steps to it. There are some really good clicker books on the market too. Sit-Stay.com is a great resource

Jazzys mom


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Jazzys Mom said:


> : No Hooch, you are not dense! I began training years ago with the old method of snap and correct. Then Jazzys mom


If my dogs here me snap they KNOW ain't no treat coming. Guess that is why Laurel messed her clicker training video up she thought she did something wrong.

Hooch


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## goldenluver (Feb 26, 2007)

Just curious, can you use the clicker for bad behavior such as barking or barking at dogs they don't know when walking?


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

goldenluver said:


> Just curious, can you use the clicker for bad behavior such as barking or barking at dogs they don't know when walking?


the instructions that came with the clicker DID say that it can be used to shun barking. im not sure how. BUT, on walks, jake barks at other dogs also. im hoping that with the clicker i can teach him to focus on me, and NOT other dogs. right now he will heal once in a while, but i think if i clicker train him, he will pay more attention to me and i will be able to quiet him when he barks at others.

does shianna bark at all dogs? jake barks at dogs on leashes, when we're on walks. He LOVES dogs..its a play bark, but sometimes it little annoying, and embarassing yipps. i cant stand it. when he sees another dog, WOO--i cant ever get his attention unless i drag him in the opposite direction. and i mean DRAG. im HOPING :crossfing that with some clicker training, he will be more focused on me, and willing to please. i dont know what else to do!! 


try this website ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Why I Clicker Train

heres some good info from the site....
"Clicker training appealed to me from the beginning because it looks at the dog/human relationship from a totally different perspective. Clicker training focuses on what's right rather than what's wrong. It focuses on the solution, not the problem. 
Let's look at a common training issue: a dog who jumps on people to greet them. The traditional solution is to stop the behavior by punishing it. Common methods include stepping on the dog's toes or kneeing the dog in the chest. A less harsh method involves simply turning away until the dog figures out that he won't get the attention he wants by jumping. 
When someone asks, "How do I stop my dog from jumping on people?", a clicker trainer asks, "What do you want the dog to do instead?" Clicker training focuses on training a preferred behavior, which can be rewarded, rather than punishing an undesirable one. "I want my dog to sit nicely to be petted." Not only does this approach give the owner a definable action to train, but it also gives the dog a definable action to perform. "


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## goldenluver (Feb 26, 2007)

foreveramber said:


> the instructions that came with the clicker DID say that it can be used to shun barking. im not sure how. BUT, on walks, jake barks at other dogs also. im hoping that with the clicker i can teach him to focus on me, and NOT other dogs. right now he will heal once in a while, but i think if i clicker train him, he will pay more attention to me and i will be able to quiet him when he barks at others.
> 
> does shianna bark at all dogs? jake barks at dogs on leashes, when we're on walks. He LOVES dogs..its a play bark, but sometimes it little annoying, and embarassing yipps. i cant stand it. when he sees another dog, WOO--i cant ever get his attention unless i drag him in the opposite direction. and i mean DRAG. im HOPING :crossfing that with some clicker training, he will be more focused on me, and willing to please. i dont know what else to do!!
> 
> ...


Shianna only barks at dogs she doesn't know, her hackles go up, it's not a I want to play bark. I had a personal trainer for awhile to help me with it. She said she's not being aggressive it's because she is afraid and she's showing the others that she's big and bad so they won't bother her. We haven't walked in quite awhile because her prong collar popped off and I am kinda nervous. She doesn't want to walk because it's too hot, she's more happy running around in the backyard. Once it cools off we'll start again. I just wanted to see if the clicker would help with her to focus on me and not pay attention to the other dogs. The trainer is excellent and got Shianna to go near dogs that she would go nuts over. Let me know if it works.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

goldenluver said:


> Shianna only barks at dogs she doesn't know, her hackles go up, it's not a I want to play bark. I had a personal trainer for awhile to help me with it. She said she's not being aggressive it's because she is afraid and she's showing the others that she's big and bad so they won't bother her. We haven't walked in quite awhile because her prong collar popped off and I am kinda nervous. She doesn't want to walk because it's too hot, she's more happy running around in the backyard. Once it cools off we'll start again. I just wanted to see if the clicker would help with her to focus on me and not pay attention to the other dogs. The trainer is excellent and got Shianna to go near dogs that she would go nuts over. Let me know if it works.


 
i think the trick is to get them "obsessed" in a way, with the clicker, before trying to overcome major feats. many of the websites say that dogs LOVE to work for their clicks. it sounds weird...but yes, i will let you know if it works


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

YES! I often resort to negative methods for behavior mod because one of my major flaws as a human being is lack of patience in SOME areas. A dog barking in my house is one of them. As is a dog pulling a leash. But clicking can and does absolutely work for behavior mod. As do other methods.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Okay you guys have talked me into it. I am definitely going to do some more reading on this clicker training.

Hooch


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I'm actually spending the weekend at an advanced clicker training workshop with Kathy Sdao (Bright Spot Dog Training & Kathy Sdao, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist (associate), Tacoma, Washington).

In a nutshell, true clicker training (make that "pure" clicker training) is all about shaping or capturing behaviors. No lures, no coercion, no force, etc. Either shaping a behavior by reinforcing sucscessive approximations of what will become the final behavior or just observing the dog and waiting for him to do what you want, then clicking and treating.

The click is a salient stimulus that tells the dog, 'YES - that thing you just did... I'll pay for that. Please consider doing it again." It's based on marine mammal training - which, of course simply cannot be done with force, luring, coercion, etc. Just how you gonna MAKE Shamu jump? Haha.

I tend to lure and click - and in doing so, I can fade the lure super fact and get to verbal cues for behaviors. The problem I have is getting stimulus control - in fact, that's what we're working on tomorrow at the seminar.

Basically - anything your dog does that you like -- click and treat for it. You'll soon discover that you'll see more of that behavior. Treat after every click, no exceptions. I personally don't worry about loading the clicker and I've never had a problem - even with dogs in a shelter. They seem to figure it out really fast.

Karen Pryor's website is a great source of clicker training info. Karen Pryor Clickertraining | dog training and cat training info, books, videos, events.

Okay, I've gotta go mess around with some behaviors now for tomorrow's seminar...

Happy Clicking!

-Stephanie


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

What?!?!?! No Quiz update again tomorrow night either???

Hooch


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

:wavey:

Just that he received many compliments on his supreme intelligence today at the seminar!

:wavey:

Performance update next weekend, not to worry!

-S


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

You don't need to take an obedience class to learn clicker training. I had one person semi-explain shaping (handed me a clicker and told me to click/treat whenever Dusty looked at me, which is how I started with Boo too, worked well) and I taught Dusty quite a few things on my own. Peggy Tillman's book Clicking with your Dog (sold at Petsmart/Petco) is very good.

Want more Quiz updates!


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> :wavey:
> 
> Just that he received many compliments on his supreme intelligence today at the seminar!
> 
> -S


No doubt about that one for sure.

Hooch


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

First let me say, any tool will fail if you do not apply the corrections needed for there use, but you first have to train them by doing your yardwork first. If one is not willing to give corrections when needed, they are wasting there time even using any tool. The prong, slip collar work excellent in training ones dog, but you have too apply the corrections when needed or else the dog will just treat them as a plain buckle collar and pull since pulling only teaches the dog to pull harder, they will do the same thing in a pinch or slip if the corrections are not there, and they will fail you. The whole idea of using a tool, is correcting a bad behavior and if one is not willing to correct, the behavior will not stop.

So now since you want to clicker train, I have two suggestions for you. One, search your channels for "It's me or the Dog". Tape if you have recorder so as you can watch it when you have time. Second suggestion would be go to your library and look for "The Power of Positive Training" by Pat Miller.

Clicker training works for many dogs, but for many it also fails on reliability in wide open spaces when they have choices such as a rabbit, porky, skunk, car, etc. Some distractions come way above treats, so it really depends on each individual dog in reliability. 

Good luck, and happy training!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I'd love to know how a prong collar works on wide open spaces with an off leash dog when a rabbit runs by too, though. Short of a shock collar, you're at the mercy of your training (of ANY method) in such a situation. 

And as you know I use prongs sometimes and am NOT against them at all 

You do NOT have to use corrections to train a dog, though I certainly do because it is *faster* for some things. But I have OFTEN trained dogs to perform MANY MANY tricks and behaviors and commands without one single correction used in the learning process. To say that cannot be done is just plain false. 

Here are some of the things I taught *one* dog with a clicker only and not one single correction:

Sit, down, stay, formal heelwork, shake, spine, twirl, wave, paws up, crate up, hold (an item), drop an item, tug on command, fetch, formal recall, tuck sit...

Now on the same dog I did use some corrections initially for leash pulling and the odd thing about the house (like sniffing the litter box). Maybe that's what you mean. But I took your message to imply you cannot train a dog, period, without corrections.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Oh and he was completely off leash reliable- and I never corrected him or used a long line or any other method to train that. I find that most of my dogs are naturally pretty good off leash and responsive, but that is possibly bc I off leash them constantly from early babyhood, and am always re-enforcing this every time they respond favorable from day one. By the time a real distraction comes up they're very conditioned to ignore it and stick with me.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

Oh boy, this is gonna be long. lol Hope you got some free time...lol, I do because it's 80 some degree's outside and high humidity. 



> I'd love to know how a prong collar works on wide open spaces with an off leash dog when a rabbit runs by too, though.


It would be by way of association by correction. It is all in the training and it's not only by way of collar, it also by way of sits/downs, hand signals,etc. and compliance of those commands. Even with this training though once a dog has free choice the stakes can change which could endanger a dog if not in a safe area.

For many goldens even with this it is not enough and nothing short of an e-collar will stop them since there drive is so strong as is there nose which leads them, as in Kodes case. *There will always be types of distractions that we simply can't train with by way of working through those distractions with our dogs. * 

The key is too know your dog, have you put it under every single distraction you will face, it is in a safe area at all times, or is it a high roller faced with the dangers of wild animals that you could not possibly train for it and with the high prey drive to movement, and the strong nose intact with it's breeding stop it nothing short of an e-collar to save it. These are the things one must look at individually and make there own decisions on with there dog as to what is the best method for them in there individual situations. 

It's not a matter of what is the best tool, it's the matter of using that tool correctly if you choose to use one, as well as all the other work involved and adding in yet another tool if your situation calls for it to save that dog that you so desperately love and being able to break that focus when nothing else will at a distance.

Many people off leash dog all the time with no problems, the difference between these dogs and the other dogs is not in the training, it is in the prey drives of the dogs. Bianka is never on leash, I can put her on anything and within a second pull her off. But she has no prey drive, nor is her nose intact since she is more of conformation lines and her breeder stripped her of these, they were striving for a looks in which she has but they infact created a more calm dog by stripping her of her nose and prey drive. She was fully trained by a little over a year even to the yard and new her lines. Quite the different dog then my Kody is, or my Abby B/L is. They have that full prey drive and that strong nose intact, which makes ones job even harder. You can work with that prey drive by moving it more into pack drive to an extent, but you will never strip them of there intact nose which drives them.

Bianka was a cinch to train, you take that nose and that prey drive away and you got an easy dog which positive methods worked well on, I used them pretty much for her....hence the book I suggested, although I did not use a clicker.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Hey it's hot here too! Post away, friend! I love debating with you because don't always agree, but we're both educated and interested and I enjoy the different point of views from an experienced dog handler.

I agree some dogs are easier, but I have a field champion sighthound (remember, "sighthounds are untrainable" where as "any idiot" can train a Golden- or so I get told all the time) who has made live kills who I can call off live game with ease- the same dog who bites his leash and screams with desire to run the bunny. And I never once nailed him for it and I have never put a shock collar on a dog in my life time. Not to say I wouldn't? But I've never even had it come up. I can't afford one, and have never needed one.

I have a cosmic bond with this dog, though. He chooses to chew bones and eat food close to me (brings it over near me) and I can kiss his mouth while he's eating even the yummiest treat and he doesn't act like he can even tell I am there. He just carries on chewing and eating at a normal speed. We are so close and so trusting. I think that is the secret, really. I know this dog like I know myself, maybe even more!

That said, Sabrina, whom I have had for two weeks tomorrow, is already off leash with me (see my thread about her trip to the beach, for example) and very responsive. She has never been corrected. She follows her pack (my pack) and she responds readily to my voice bc I have shown her over and over and over again that responding to my voice pays big!

As I have said I am not against corrections. And I also don't particularly care if my dogs chase a bunny in the woods. That's WHY I take my dogs to the woods.

I still also say I bet big money I could train your dog, either or any of them or any dog on the planet to perform tons of behaviors with nothing but a clicker and some **** good food.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I'd love to know how a prong collar works on wide open spaces with an off leash dog when a rabbit runs by too, though. Short of a shock collar, you're at the mercy of your training (of ANY method) in such a situation.


i agree...

WHY IS IT THAT THIS THREAD AND THE PREVIOUS THREAD I STARTED ABOUT TRAINING TOOLS HAVE BEEN IN SOME WAY "HIJACKED" BY GOLDNDUST?

i appreciate the info, but i would rather just read each person's opinion and make my own conclusions....

not trying to be offensive...but seriously, COME ON!!


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

How did you make out? Did you get a new clicker yet?


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

:thanks:everyone!! we got the new clicker and we started at it a little while ago. we will see how it goes.


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

foreveramber said:


> :thanks:everyone!! we got the new clicker and we started at it a little while ago. we will see how it goes.


Great I hope you were able to get some useful information to help you out.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Bailey & Bentley said:


> How did you make out? Did you get a new clicker yet?


 
i started just clicking and treating when he would look at me, like an hour ago...and now he is just staring at me while im typing...

weird. i think this will work for him.


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

Look forward to hearing from you in a week when you tell us about all the new tricks and commands that you tought!


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Bailey & Bentley said:


> Look forward to hearing from you in a week when you tell us about all the new tricks and commands that you tought!


 
alrighty!! ill start a new thread!! by then, this one will be a bunch of pages.


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

foreveramber said:


> i started just clicking and treating when he would look at me, like an hour ago...and now he is just staring at me while im typing...
> 
> weird. i think this will work for him.


 
So smart. I think this is going to be a piece of cake for you both.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

A question was directed at me by ACC, so I answered it ForeverAmber in a post prior. Then ACC went deeper so I quit because I then felt it was going way off the topic even further and a debate wanted by ACC.

I'm sorry if you felt I alone hijacked your post, I will be more careful in the future with others questions directed at me and if others go off topic, I will do my best to stay on topic. 

Injoy that clicker! And once again, happy training.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I don't think you did anything wrong... we're just talkin'  it's a forum after all! You aren't bashing the clicker IMO at all. 

Anyway, it was as much, if not more, my fault!


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Goldndust said:


> A question was directed at me by ACC, so I answered it ForeverAmber in a post prior. Then ACC went deeper so I quit because I then felt it was going way off the topic even further.
> 
> I'm sorry if you felt I hijacked your post, I will be more careful in the future with others questions directed at me and if others go off topic, I will do my best to stay on topic.
> 
> Injoy that clicker! And once again, happy training.


i dont think you technically hijacked the post, its just hard for me to learn how to use some of these darn tools when you and others are discussing and debating over what is right and wrong, in such depth!!:curtain: Jake is my first puppy....i helped train my parents golden, but she was 2 years old when we got her... i hope i didnt offend you! it was not my intention

i appreciate all your feedback, and i do agree with you on some things. it makes it harder for me to understand what i should be doing, when everyone is throwing lots and lots of info back and forth!!


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I don't think you did anything wrong... we're just talkin'  it's a forum after all! You aren't bashing the clicker IMO at all.
> 
> Anyway, it was as much, if not more, my fault!


nothing is anyones fault!! im sorry if i came off harsh...as i said in the previous reply...its hard to understand so much info!!!!!!! ive never trained a pup before.

i appreciate everyone's input!!

did you see the prong collar thread i started ??? :doh: i got waayyyy more than i bargained for!!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

In a nutshell, just remember this:

Dogs don't live to please us. Period. Their overriding motivational thought 24/7, 365 days a year is, "Hey man, what's in it for me?" When you're training a dog, you'd better be darn sure that you're willing to make behaviors that you wish to see more of very reinforcing to your dog. You can do that many ways -- by adding rewards (positive methods, of which, clicker training is one) or by adding relief, which is the removal of unpleasnt things (you stop popping the leash/collar, removing pressure on the dog's butt for a sit, etc. (common in "traditonal" training methods.)

Some people feel you can't fully train a dog w/o corrections. I disagree. 

IMO, the best thing about a clicker is that it's great for a newbie trainer b/c it's kinda hard to mess up with lasting effects. If you mis-use punishment, you're risking a lot of things and it can have lasting negative effects. Mis-use a clicker and you're only gonna end up clicking with bad timing (accidentally teaching something other than what you set out to do), a dog who lacks stimulus control and who "throws" behaviors at you or maybe an overweight dog! Still better, IMO, that ANY of the possible unfortunately side effects from poor correction-based training. Plus, it's a great relationship builder between dog/handler and is an awful lot of fun.

Bottom line is: ANY ANIMAL HAS A CHOICE when asked to perform a behavior. Make the behaviors reinforcing for the animal and you will see more of that behavior. Always reinforce what you like. You don't work w/o a paycheck, why should your dog? (And FYI, reinforcers don't have to always involve food.)

Clicker training can be VERY powerful when done correctly. If it's powerful enough to teach Shamu to jump in the air and not eat his trainer, it's certainly powerful enough to train a dog!

-Stephanie


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

thanks for the input stephanie! i just wish i had known about clicker training before i even tried the prong, gentle leader, etc. (the prong was returned...it made me too nervous!!!)


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Something to play with:

Teaching "down" with a clicker:

Have really great treats. Make sure your dog knows the click. Lure the down 3-4 times. Click with good timing (just as the dog folds down) and feed a treat each time. Then show the dog you have the treats. Put them back in your pouch and wait.

Watch for ANY muscle movement that would be part of a down:

Head lowers
Shoulder dips
Bows front end, etc.

Pick one of those as your starting criteria. Let's say head dip. Click and treat for several head dips. Now you're gonna up your criteria to a shoulder dip, which is closer to the finished down than just the head dip.

The dog will keep offering head lowering. Ignore it. No click. No talking. Nothing. The dog will go through an extinction burst where he offers lots of head lowering (thinking, "dammit - this was just working!") and eventually he'll get frustrated and try something else. When he offers somethign else that's another part of the down, click that. Repeat several times then up the criteria again.... and so on until you eventually get the down. OH - and don't bother naming the behavior "down" just yet. THat comes way later.

ANOTHER WAY TO DO IT -- it's not shaping, but it's not really total luring either and it works great with a clicker.

Lure 3-4 downs. Then show dog the treat, ball them up in your hand and put your fist on the ground. Dog will snif, lick, paw, etc. and will eventually lie down. Click and feed a treat from your hand. Reset the dog (meaning get him up) and put your hand to the ground again. Repeat until you're getting the down right away. Now stand up and just wait. The dog should remember having just been paid several times for the down and will eventually lie down on his own. Click and jackpot!

The nice thing about clicker training and shaping is that it makes the dog an active participant in the learning process. Simple luring tends to make a dog dependant on the handler to "show him" what they want. Some people don't care about that, but I find it more fun to create a dog who is willing to say "look what I can do" and who will do lots of stuff in hopes of making me click. Then I can pick and choose and build on what I want to see more of.

-S


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

so does this apply to jake, even though he knows the "down" command very well?? do i just start all over, using the clicker, rather tahn commands?? along with sit, and all others??


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Does he know "down" on just the verbal (no body language from you) or do you use basically a faded lure hand signal, such as pointing to the ground, much like you'd do if teaching with a food lure?

If he's on a hand signal and you want to switch to a verbal, you can use the clicker. I find it shortens the dog's learning curve when making the leap from lures or related gestures to straight verbals.

I'd love to give you some tips, etc. but since I don't know what you're dog already knows, maybe I should just suggest that you let me know what you want to work on using the clicker and I can offer some suggestions on how I'd do it? And I'll preface everything with the fact that I'm not a "pure" clicker trainer. I lure often... I even use aversives here and there... but I do feel that I have a solid understanding of the science behind clicker training and have had a lot of success with it.

ClickerTraining.com is a great source of info. Highly recommend it.

The Take A Bow videos (available one above site) are excellent, too. Instruction on teaching several tricks using shaping. 

-Stephanie


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

he knows all the commands by both verbal and my hand motions...however, if i tell him to "laydown" he will. and if i point straight down at the ground, he will laydown also. im not sure why, but with him, i use both verbal and hand motion when giving him a command. but, he will respond to each on its own.

with the clicker, i was hoping to get more focus out of him. he seems distant, even with short, frequent training sessions. i am hoping to use it to teach him to heal. i hate the gentle leader, and am not comfortable with the prong. i know he is young, and very easily distracted, but i think that if i can build a good foundation of the basics with the clicker, then, i can have more of his attention??? does that make sense??

he is doing AWESOME with the recall. i have had him off leash a lot lately..even today on our little hike. he was off leash half the time. and when i told him to wait or whatever, he actually did. he stayed with me and didnt run off. he is also doing great with other dogs around at the park. he will come to me about 75% of the time when there are other dogs loose. i am very proud of this...not so much of his leash manners. 

i just did what you said about the head bob, and the down. i didnt say any words, just waited to see what he would do, and he stood there, and eventually did a head bob as if he was going to lay down, so i clicked and treated. after a few tries, he was in the down position instantly. the only thing i am confused about is, now, how do i do other things, like shake, and just sit?? now that he thinks he has to laydown?? am i supposed to use verbal commands along with the clicker now?? how is he supposed to know what i want without telling him???


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

If he knows something reliably - to the piont that you're willing to bet me $50 bucks that, when you ask for the behavior, you'll get in within three seconds, then you can use whatever cue you've attached to that behavior -- sit, or whatever. For those behaviors, you can use C/T (click, treat) to reward and maintain what he already knows. You just want to avoid naming behaviors you aren't willing to bet on yet. Get the behavior solid before you name it.

So, ask for sit and click the nanosecond his butt is making contact with the ground. Don't wait for him to complete the sit before you click -- that click would be a little late. Ask for sit, he does it and you C/T before he goes into the down. 

For the shake, I'll be honest, I prompt a shake, so I haven't taught it with pure shaping and a clicker, I've only reinforced it with the clicker. Here's how I'd teach it:

Reach for paw, lift up, use your hand as a flat shelf so that the dog is in charge of keeping his paw there (vs. you physically holding it). Feed the entire time the dog keeps his paw on your hand shelf. Run out of food, put paw down, or if he removes paw, stop feeding. Usually w/in a few days, the dog will start to offer the paw when you start to reach for it. At that point you can start to click for paw lifting on his own. Again, don't name it "shake" until you're willing to bet $50 that as soon as you reach for his paw, he'll lift it on his own.

Keep up the great work!

Happy Training!


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

thanks for all the helpful info.

so how would you go about teaching a heal, with the clicker?

do i wait until he is more familiar with it first?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Hit up ACC for heeling with a clicker. I know she's done a lot of it. Again, I lure and then click. BUT, if I were going to do it with pure shaping, I guess I'd start by clicking the dog for being at my left side and when I deliver the treat, I personally would toss it away from me to automatically reset the behavior. (Some would say feed in position, but then it's hard to get your next click b/c the dog is already where you want him.) Wait for him to wander back to your left side, click and toss treat. Repeat several times until the dog is rhythmically going from where the treat landed to right back to your left side -- all the while, you're standing still. Get really good at this over a few training sessions and in various locations and even around some low level distractions. By then, the dog should be really into heel position.

Then I'd try taking a step forward. When the dog moves up (b/c he wants to stay in heel position b/c he's been heavily reinforced for it) then click and treat.

Again, just thinking out loud here, having never actually shaped heeling before. 

-S


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Hey, I see you're in Washington State. Anywhere near Tacoma? Check out Bright Spot Dog Training & Kathy Sdao, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist (associate), Tacoma, Washington. Email her to find a great clicker class in your area. She's my clicker IDOL!

There's also Terry Ryan at Legacy Canine in Sequim -- Legacy Canine - Dog Training.

-S


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

i never thought of standing in place to teach it...seems like a much more efficient way of starting out...thank you!!

my parents live near gig harbor...its just on the other side of the water from tacoma. i am at college now, at Central Washington University, in ellensburg,....so i cant really get classes in tacoma...i only go home on weekends...and have limited cash since the parents pay my way, otherwise i would buy the dog some **** obedience classes!!! :curtain:


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I stand in place for heel and click solid attention first. But I am talking flashy obedience ring heeling, NOT "walk nicely around the 'hood" type heeling. Then I add one or two steps... and so forth...


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

My trainer would have me and Bailey walk around and through cones (I guess you could use anything) and my objective was to keep him close by my sidethe whole time, by saying heel, then click and give treat when he stayed close. It actually worked pretty well.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I stand in place for heel and click solid attention first. But I am talking flashy obedience ring heeling, NOT "walk nicely around the 'hood" type heeling. Then I add one or two steps... and so forth...


I've always felt that if a dog won't want to hang with you in heel position when you aren't moving, why would he when you are! Haha!

I find that for pet dogs, if I do a "loose" version of how I'd train for competitive work, the "slop" that creates is a perfect behavior for a pet dog! : C/T for being in heel position stationary, but don't require attention. You'll inadvertently get some attention, which will help when you start to move, but the attention won't be the true focused attention you'd want for flashy heeling, etc.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Sit Happens taught me most of what I know about clicking/heelwork! Over the internet at that... also learned tons in the UK from a good friend of mine there when I lived there.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

That's one of my favorite things about dog training... there are so many ways to train a behavior.

On the other hand, dogs are horrible first subjects if you want to really train and pay close attention to the laws of learning -- simply b/c we can physically control them and if often gives we humans a fast sense of control and an incorrect idea that the dog is learning something.

I can't wait to train my chicken in December! All about observation, excellent timing and a proper rate of reinforcement!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I trained a fish once for a science project... nothing special, but proved they have brains LOL


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Cool! Yup. You can train anything with a brain stem that eats!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Good news for those of us who share space with a man


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Good news for those of us who share space with a man


Ahahahahahaha! Good one!


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> dogs are horrible first subjects if you want to really train and pay close attention to the laws of learning -- simply b/c we can physically control them and if often gives we humans a fast sense of control and an incorrect idea that the dog is learning something.


correct me if i am mistaken...i hope this comment is not directed at me. 


i am so confused, i read all the previous posts, and cant figure out where this comment became relevant... unless you are implying that since ive never trained a dog, that hes really not learning.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

foreveramber said:


> correct me if i am mistaken...i hope this comment is not directed at me.
> 
> 
> i am so confused, i read all the previous posts, and cant figure out where this comment became relevant... unless you are implying that since ive never trained a dog, that hes really not learning.



*On the other hand, dogs are horrible first subjects if you want to really train and pay close attention to the laws of learning -- simply b/c we can physically control them and if often gives we humans a fast sense of control and an incorrect idea that the dog is learning something.*

Oh heavens no!

It was just me thinking out loud in general about training, especially with more "traditional" methods. GUess that wasn't really clear... 'tho it made perfect sense in my little pea brain at the time!

Clicker training will force you to develop good timing and clicker training as an art closely follows the laws of learning! That's why it's such a great training method!

Keep up the great work! And please keep me posted at how it's going!

-Stephanie


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## hawtee (Nov 1, 2006)

Just an amusing story for CT..we had a demo with our dogs at a middle school to show them how receptive CT was. At the end of the demo we asked if there were any questions, when a child finished asking their question we would CT (throwing them a piece of candy) it did not take long for them to be asking all kinds of questions about our demo...
CT is a wonderful tool and I hope you keep up the good work you are doing.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> *On the other hand, dogs are horrible first subjects if you want to really train and pay close attention to the laws of learning -- simply b/c we can physically control them and if often gives we humans a fast sense of control and an incorrect idea that the dog is learning something.*
> 
> Oh heavens no!
> 
> ...


 
ok, i feel better. you kinda caught me off guard there...sorry about that!!!

and hawtee...that is hillarious!!!


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