# European lines- how to find a GOOD breeder in TX?



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

It's hard to check their clearances. They make it look like the dogs have OFA clearances, but only some of them do. The others appear to have European clearances (or none) and they've put what they feel is the OFA equivalent next to it. It makes it look like Vega, for instance, has tested OFA Excellent for hips, which he clearly hasn't. It's a little misleading, though I can see why they list it that way.

I also don't see heart clearances for any dog, and they don't list those on the site, so perhaps they aren't doing hearts?

I'd want these questions answered by the breeder, and I'd like to see verifiable documentation of the European clearances. 

Personally, I also like to see multigenerational clearances on dogs and on siblings where possible, not just the parents, and I can't tell if they have them.

I don't see any reason not to continue further in researching this breeder and making contact. In a quick perusal of the site, I didn't see any of the typical red flags that so often show up with folks breeding "English type" Goldens.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Wow! Taking a brief look at the pedigrees it looks like you will have to do a ton of research and reading to find out what the clearances are and how to read them from a number of European countries. It can be done, but in the process, you will learn a great deal.


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## whitneymac (May 17, 2010)

Her email to me indicates that both parents have their hip, elbow, heart, and eye clearances, and that their dogs come from their mentors at Dream Max Kennel in Sweden. http://www.kenneldreammax.com/engindex.htm Does anyone have any experience with this group?


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Dream Max is a very reputable Swedish Kennel and all their breeding stock will have the appropriate tests completed. I have judged many of the dogs featured in the pedigrees and they are very nice dogs with good temperaments. Annef


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## Tinsley (Nov 11, 2008)

Do you know how european their dogs are and what dogs/bitches are in their pedigrees? I have a pen pal in NY and they badly wanted an English golden retriever and were in contact with a breeder about a litter. In reality the couple of English retrievers in there weren't fantastic and didn't all have clearances. Do you just want a dog like a european one or that actually is european? My breeder let a pup go over to Canada she just put endorsements on her that she had to be fully tested and do well in the equivalent of field trials as that was what she was bred for etc if they decided they wanted to breed her.

The dogs on that link look nice and solid boned but I'm not a fan of the real white ones myself but that's just because mine isn't that colour probably :, but then it depends what you want to do with them, I really like the colours of some of their slightly darker ones. They at least look good on the website which is more than can be said for some I've seen before!

There are some French retrievers who I absolutely adore, they are bred to be dual purpose I've not seen many others like that. I would be tempted with one of those if I had the money spare.

Good luck with your search!


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Tinsley said:


> There are some French retrievers who I absolutely adore, they are bred to be dual purpose I've not seen many others like that. I would be tempted with one of those if I had the money spare.


Can you direct us to some pics of these French Goldens? I would love to see them.


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## KathyF (Apr 1, 2010)

If you've been told there is a difference in temperament between English and American Golden Retrievers, then you've been mislead. I live in England, know many English Goldens, and until recently had an American Golden. She was, if anything, more laid back than the English dogs. They would come bounding up to her in the park, full of energy--she didn't like rambunctious dogs, so I always noticed when one was coming toward us. Your description of what you want in temperament fit her to a T. She was happy to be under the desk while I worked, but could outpace us easily on a 6 mile hike.

She was also slimmer, a fact that impressed the vet every time we saw him. He was used to "fuller figured" English dogs and always complimented me on keeping her slim. 

She was darker in color, but I've seen many American dogs lately that are lighter and lighter. I would stay away from marketing ploys that try to tell you English dogs are healthier or calmer, and try to find a breeder with lighter colored Goldens based on their photos. I know I've come across quite a few, but I haven't looked in the Texas area.

Good luck with your search; I'll be right behind you in a few months.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Texas has lots of nice goldens. Maybe you could contact some established breeders and ask them about Oakshire. I am perplexed about how to assess them, but I do know there are lots of good resources in your area. 

http://www.happyhourfarms.com/

Glengowan Goldens
14644 County Road 746
Lavon, TX 75166-1829
972-843-3083
[email protected]

Brandye Randermann at Xcelerate Goldens I think is in Katy TX

Scion Golden Retrievers

Pat Simpson
Austin, TX USA 
[email protected]
sciongoldens.com


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Selli-Belle said:


> Can you direct us to some pics of these French Goldens? I would love to see them.


Marie-Alpais Baizin of Cheek to Cheek is one from France who tires to breed a good looking Golden that can work as well. http://www.cheektocheek-goldens.com/english.htm
My youngster Butch's sire is of her breeding. He loves his birds and now has two RWD placements.

Glen Sheallag is another from France doing both conformation and field. http://www.ofglensheallag.fr/


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

Selli-Belle said:


> Can you direct us to some pics of these French Goldens? I would love to see them.


I think Tinsley was referring to some of the golden retriever breeders in France who are focusing on their dogs being dual-purpose, and the fact that she was impressed with that. I don't think they meant that "French retrievers" are some kind of offshoot of the golden retriever breed, like some Americans imagine "English goldens" to be.

Some golden kennels in France that are very well-known are Glen Sheallag, Ashbury, Cheek to Cheek, du Bois de la Rayere, Far and Away, etc.


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## GoldenDreams (Dec 17, 2009)

My Haley has Dream Max lines, Glen Sheallag and Ashbury. Beautiful dogs. Haley's parent's have all the OFA clearances and CERF.

Make sure that they have US clearances if they are in the US. There is no reason why they shouldn't.

I went with a breeder without US clearances the first time around with Ferguson. You can see the results by my signature. He didn't even get to live to be 6 months.


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## Tinsley (Nov 11, 2008)

Selli-Belle said:


> Can you direct us to some pics of these French Goldens? I would love to see them.


Sure can, they just look fantastic and they really do try to breed a 'dual purpose' golden which is nice, not sure how it stands in the US but there is a mighty big difference between working and show over here still. There are just so many things about these goldens that I love and the owners are genuinely meant to be just fantastic. I believe the people relocated to France a few years ago, lady is british and chap is I think swiss? The dogs they have bred their's from have been selected so carefully to be an all rounder and both people have so much experience in terms of showing and judging trials. If I had the cash I would definitely fancy one of these! Part of the reason I think I like them so much is because the people involved seem to know exactly what they are trying to breed and have seen so many retrievers across Europe in their time to know what they want. Colour doesn't come into it much for them either I don't think, so they have quite a range in terms of shades.

Here are some photos all taken from their website which is:

http://www.rayleas.com/


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## Tinsley (Nov 11, 2008)

KathyF said:


> If you've been told there is a difference in temperament between English and American Golden Retrievers, then you've been mislead. I live in England, know many English Goldens, and until recently had an American Golden. She was, if anything, more laid back than the English dogs. They would come bounding up to her in the park, full of energy--she didn't like rambunctious dogs, so I always noticed when one was coming toward us. Your description of what you want in temperament fit her to a T. She was happy to be under the desk while I worked, but could outpace us easily on a 6 mile hike.
> 
> She was also slimmer, a fact that impressed the vet every time we saw him. He was used to "fuller figured" English dogs and always complimented me on keeping her slim.
> 
> She was darker in color, but I've seen many American dogs lately that are lighter and lighter. I would stay away from marketing ploys that try to tell you English dogs are healthier or calmer, and try to find a breeder with lighter colored Goldens based on their photos. I know I've come across quite a few, but I haven't looked in the Texas area.


I think it varies quite a lot over here depending on whether the dog is from show or working lines, maybe? Mine is from a more working lined pedigree and he is more excitable. Still absolutely lovely and has a kind temperament but he gets out of hand much easier than a lot of the show breds I've met who are just content to lie at your feet all day. People over here told me he would be calm as anything and it was labradors that were live wires, but boy were they wrong :

Re size I got the impression American retrievers were slimmer but I've seen quite a few chunky ones recently too but have to say they could be europeans living in America! My boy is about 24 ins tall which is the top end of breed standard and he weighs about 32kg or 71lbs. I want him no heavier than that but I too see so many who are heavier and people seem to genuinely believe they are meant to look like big bears...

I think to an extent if if you want a european type golden, it may well be best to actually get a european bred one. I think I mentioned my breeder let one of her pups go to Canada she was keen the people knew plenty about the breed and didn't intend to breed from her unless health tests were done and she was proven to be a good example and so endorsements were placed but with the dog leaving the UK and the KC not being in existence in Canada I don't know how strongly those would have held up.

I would definitely consider getting a Rayleas golden at some point if I ever got the opportunity. I just love what they do so much and they don't breed for a specific type in terms of colour or shape, just the standard european type with a nice temperament which can work and show.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

annef said:


> Dream Max is a very reputable Swedish Kennel and all their breeding stock will have the appropriate tests completed. I have judged many of the dogs featured in the pedigrees and they are very nice dogs with good temperaments. Annef


For the original poster - Please understand what Annef means here. She is saying the dogs used by Dream Max for breeding have the appropriate clearances. This does not mean any dog sold by them necessarily does. 



GoldenDreams said:


> Make sure that they have US clearances if they are in the US. There is no reason why they shouldn't.


On this point I will disagree. If the dogs have valid clearances from UK/Europe that would be adequate for me.


But here is what I think you need to consider. Unless you know these folks or know someone who does I would not recommend them for you without doing a LOT of research on your own. You would need to learn everything there is to know about these European clearances, how to interpret them and then actually see the clearance. 
Something to consider is a breeder is not likely to sell their best breeding stock to someone, never mind some one in another part of the world. And any dog sold after having obtained their clearance in Europe likely has been used and not produced better than itself or there is some underlying issue. 
Now for the other end of possibilities. The European breeder DID sell some of their top breeding stock to someone in another part of the world. The purchaser of that dog would likely be VERY selective as to where any of that dog's pups ended up and would likely not want them in the proverbial "pet home" or "newbie" home. 

I will say also that all the above is strictly my opinion(s) and I have NO knowledge at all with regard to the breeder you asked about.


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## whitneymac (May 17, 2010)

Thank you all so much for the responses. Lots to consider! I also appreciate all the alternative breeder recommendations!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Tinsley said:


> Sure can, they just look fantastic and they really do try to breed a 'dual purpose' golden which is nice, not sure how it stands in the US but there is a mighty big difference between working and show over here still. There are just so many things about these goldens that I love and the owners are genuinely meant to be just fantastic. I believe the people relocated to France a few years ago, lady is british and chap is I think swiss? The dogs they have bred their's from have been selected so carefully to be an all rounder and both people have so much experience in terms of showing and judging trials. If I had the cash I would definitely fancy one of these! Part of the reason I think I like them so much is because the people involved seem to know exactly what they are trying to breed and have seen so many retrievers across Europe in their time to know what they want. Colour doesn't come into it much for them either I don't think, so they have quite a range in terms of shades.
> 
> Here are some photos all taken from their website which is:
> 
> http://www.rayleas.com/


I think the third dog pictured here is Dempsey, who is a half brother to my Breeze's grandfather, Caluimn. The OP might want to check out Kim Cain of Mystic Golden Retrievers. Kim is in Texas, and she has used English dogs in her breeding program having worked pretty closely with Trowsnest over the years. http://www.mysticgoldens.com/


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Dempsey is beautiful as are the other French Goldens, and by that I mean Goldens bred and living in France and I love the idea of a dual purpose dog. Thanks for the links.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Just for information if you need to trace a pedigree and look at all the health test on Swedish dogs look at RASDATA. It shows all the puppies bred and all the clearances and it is possible to trace the ancesters back quite a long way. Many breeders do sell top quality dogs abroad but not all.
Many of the Cheek to Cheek dogs in France go back to a bitch I exported to Marie so if anyone does go down that route and needs any info please feel free to pm me. Annef


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## damdfw (Oct 4, 2010)

I was wondering if the original poster found a dog. I am in Texas and am currently looking for an English type golden retriever and am having trouble finding a breeder. I have talked to Oakshire Kennel and am wondering if anyone has anything to add.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

damdfw welcome to GRF! :wavey:

Kim Cain (Mystic Goldens) is in Texas. She use to breed a lot of English/American lines. She had some very nice dogs. Not sure if that is what you are looking for but she was doing this before it was the "in" thing to do. 
Good Luck!


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## 4991 (Apr 18, 2008)

damdfw said:


> I have talked to Oakshire Kennel and am wondering if anyone has anything to add.


Well, coming from Europe, specifically Germany, I have looked at their site and personally I am not very impressed. I`ve just looked at pedigrees from two of their bitches, doing a quick check on k9data and rasdata - have you seen how many clearances are missing on rasdata for example for Tecnas Swedish mother? And the other one, Tijana, is apparently from Yugoslavia (or where it used to be, anyway), not much data available there, sorry.

Also, I am really not sure what people mean when they write here in this Forum: "English type"? There are various different bloodlines and Golden types you can get in Europe who are English - but they are as different from one another as night and day. Well, at least to a Golden lover.

Another thing to keep in mind, that breeding regulations (and thus also clearance requirements) vary in Europe from country to country. Germany - and here the DRC - belong to the most strict. Personally, I would take a very close look at clearances when buying from France, Belgium, Netherland and England also. And even more so when buying from Yugoslavian region... which I simply wouldn`t do.


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## Golden Leo (Dec 3, 2008)

I just have to react on that last post. 
I come from Croatia which was part of former Yugoslavia and it is silly to put 6 countries in the same bucket. Croatian & slovenian kennel clubs can't be compared with other countries of former Yugoslavia when it comes to goldens. Our kennel club asks for health results and temperament tests before breeding and lots of breeders do more tests than it's asked from them. Of course there are breeders who don't care for dogs well being but no more than in other countries. I just think it's not fair to those people who are trying to do something good for the breed to treat them as "Balkans" and no worthy. I have at least 2-3 kennels from Croatia (we are small country so we don't have many breeders) that I would recommend to anyone with calm conscience, I know that they do health results, they don't cheat on them and they put their dogs before anything and on top of that they have really lovely dogs.


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## perdie (Oct 30, 2008)

We want an inside dog who can run with us and play outside, but who is just as happy to snuggle the day away.

Im a bit disappointed that nobody (as far as I can see) has mentioned that Goldens are ,generally, not inside dogs who are happy to snuggle the day away! Perhaps when theyre much older theyre happy with that but Goldens are sporting dogs, who love to be challenged physically&mentally.
When pups they are limited to how much exercise they should have due to concerns of dysplasia so running will be out of the question up until about 1 year.
Would an 8 year old senior dog be happy with an energetic puppy bouncing around the house when all he wants to do is sleep?
Just a few concerns any good breeder would have I think in homing one of their prize pups. Dont mean to be mean so please dont be offended.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I as a breeder, owner and fan of the Golden could not DISAGREE more with this assessment. Perhaps I am NOT what this poster would consider a "good breeder". :doh:



perdie said:


> We want an inside dog who can run with us and play outside, but who is just as happy to snuggle the day away.
> 
> Im a bit disappointed that nobody (as far as I can see) has mentioned that Goldens are ,generally, not inside dogs who are happy to snuggle the day away! Perhaps when theyre much older theyre happy with that but Goldens are sporting dogs, who love to be challenged physically&mentally.
> When pups they are limited to how much exercise they should have due to concerns of dysplasia so running will be out of the question up until about 1 year.
> ...


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## perdie (Oct 30, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> I as a breeder, owner and fan of the Golden could not DISAGREE more with this assessment. Perhaps I am NOT what this poster would consider a "good breeder". :doh:


 At least we CAN AGREE on that point, everyone is entitled to their own _opinion_ - in my _opinion_ Goldens are NOT inside dogs who like to snuggle all day lol but hey que sera sera...:wavey:


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## 4991 (Apr 18, 2008)

Golden Leo said:


> I just think it's not fair to those people who are trying to do something good for the breed to treat them as "Balkans" and no worthy.


I don`t think it`s a question of "them Balkans" and "no worthy". It`s simply a question of breeding regulations and available data. I think I mentioned some non-Balkan countries where I`d be careful as well...



Golden Leo said:


> Our kennel club asks for health results and temperament tests before breeding and lots of breeders do more tests than it's asked from them.


Apart from the fact that I have had a look at the breeding regulations of the Croatia Kennel Club that are available on the internet and I am not impressed with regulations, in particular concerning hips and elbows (!) and eyes (where are the health regulations concerning the eyes, by the way? Maybe I overlooked them but I couldn`t find any), the simple problem remains - available data. 



Golden Leo said:


> I have at least 2-3 kennels from Croatia (we are small country so we don't have many breeders) that I would recommend to anyone with calm conscience, I know that they do health results, they don't cheat on them and they put their dogs before anything and on top of that they have really lovely dogs.


And there are certainly very nice breeders in Germany who love their dogs, treat them perfectly, have nice looking dogs - and I still would not buy a puppy from them. Simply because they - not being a breeder of DRC - do not have the information that is necessary to have at least a small clue of what they are breeding. The reason being that heredity of deceases in Golden Retriever, in particular HD and ED, is polygenetic. I don`t care if the mother dog has perfect hips - if the litter she comes from consists of 6 puppies and 5 of those have hips with a score barely above or even below the minimum required for breeding rights, I don`t buy a puppy from that bitches litter. And if I can not get information about the hip scores from the puppies in the mothers litter, I would not buy either.

To get an idea about what kind of transparency I am talking about, have a look at this:

Catch The Wind Emotion - Offspring Results

This is the mother bitch of my dog Jamie. 23 of the 30 puppies she has had in her live have had their hips and 22 their elbows scored; you can see an overview of the data at the end of the page and above lots of information in addition.

Sorry if I stepped on anyones toes. I am sure there are very nice breeders in Croatia who love their dogs and do their best. I still would not buy a dog from Croatia for the reasons mentioned above.


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## Golden Leo (Dec 3, 2008)

First of all, data on internet is not measurement of quality and health. As far as I know that kind of data as you show is available only in Sweden as well (that webpage that Anne mentioned) but that doesn't mean that only dogs from Germany and Sweden are 100% healthy or more worthy. 
For breeding regulations.... First of all Croatian Kennel Club didn't invent those regulations. These regulations are given by FCI. And they represent MINIMUM of requirements one dog needs to pass to go in breeding. As anywhere in world (as in Germany also) there are "breeders" that do only this minimum. But there are many breeders in Croatia that do ALL health tests and DON'T breed dogs that don't fit in their breeding standard ( yes- we have HIGH moral health standard). Do you think they are idiots? That they would breed on sick dogs?! I don't know a good breeder that would with calm conscience breed dogs that they know they have severe HD or ED....
Do you know why I bought my dog from exactly that breeders?
They have at home 15 dogs (14 from yesterday  ). From that 15 dogs 11 have A hips, 2 have C hips (bought male and their breeding female) and 2 are too young for health tests, they will have their prelims next month. My dog has B hips, littermates (8 pups) have A hips. His half sisters litter - A hips, one girl from litter with B hips. All of them have clear elbows and PRA free eyes. And please just say that they don't care about health just because it's not online or because they're from former Yugoslavia.... They primary breed for themselves. THEY want to have healthy dogs, good in conformation and with working ability. They don't care if you from Germany would like to buy or wouldn't like to buy pup from them. I am very happy and proud to have their pup. I trust them with my life, they don't cheat on health results, they don't set up the shows and what they've done they did with very hard work.

I hate when someone generalize and have so much prejudice!! I've heard thousands times about goldens in Germany but you don't see me telling around that rumors or whatever it is!
If you have informations on exact kennel in Croatia that you have sth to tell about then please do and don't generalize since you insult hard work of some breeders.


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## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

Golden Leo said:


> First of all, data on internet is not measurement of quality and health. As far as I know that kind of data as you show is available only in Sweden as well (that webpage that Anne mentioned) but that doesn't mean that only dogs from Germany and Sweden are 100% healthy or more worthy.
> For breeding regulations.... First of all Croatian Kennel Club didn't invent those regulations. These regulations are given by FCI. And they represent MINIMUM of requirements one dog needs to pass to go in breeding. As anywhere in world (as in Germany also) there are "breeders" that do only this minimum. But there are many breeders in Croatia that do ALL health tests and DON'T breed dogs that don't fit in their breeding standard ( yes- we have HIGH moral health standard). Do you think they are idiots? That they would breed on sick dogs?! I don't know a good breeder that would with calm conscience breed dogs that they know they have severe HD or ED....
> Do you know why I bought my dog from exactly that breeders?
> They have at home 15 dogs (14 from yesterday  ). From that 15 dogs 11 have A hips, 2 have C hips (bought male and their breeding female) and 2 are too young for health tests, they will have their prelims next month. My dog has B hips, littermates (8 pups) have A hips. His half sisters litter - A hips, one girl from litter with B hips. All of them have clear elbows and PRA free eyes. And please just say that they don't care about health just because it's not online or because they're from former Yugoslavia.... They primary breed for themselves. THEY want to have healthy dogs, good in conformation and with working ability. They don't care if you from Germany would like to buy or wouldn't like to buy pup from them. I am very happy and proud to have their pup. I trust them with my life, they don't cheat on health results, they don't set up the shows and what they've done they did with very hard work.
> ...



I totally agree with you Iva, and would like to add one more thing. 

Implying that everyone here doesn't do the right things is really hurtful and offensive. I happen to know many who do the right things, who breed to the standard, who do clearances, and go beyond the minimum requirements established by their kennel clubs or FCI. These breeders I know have very high standards and don't cut any corners. 

There are unscrupulous breeders all over the world, not just Eastern Europe. And from those unscrupulous breeders, some are regarded as top breeders and praised and admired by many.


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## 4991 (Apr 18, 2008)

Golden Leo said:


> As far as I know that kind of data as you show is available only in Sweden as well (that webpage that Anne mentioned)


And isn`t it a real pity that from all those countries all over the world, you can get the kind of data that I think is a MINIMUM from only a few? Not only Sweden and Germany, by the way. But it could certainly be more.



Golden Leo said:


> For breeding regulations.... First of all Croatian Kennel Club didn't invent those regulations. These regulations are given by FCI, they represent MINIMUM of requirements


Exactly, the represent MINIMUM requirements. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in FCI regulations forbidding a breeding club from adding additional requirements. Why did the Croatia Kennel Club not do so? What are the reasons for this? By the way, unfortunately, the Croatia Kennel Club is not alone with this. But I`d really like to know - why? If the breed is oh so healthy, additional requirements are no problem. And if the breed is not so healthy, additional requirements will help.



Golden Leo said:


> I trust them with my life, they don't cheat on health results, they don't set up the shows and what they've done they did with very hard work.


I don`t think I ever said or implied anybody cheating on health results or setting up shows and not working very hard. The problem is that if I as a hard working, trustworthy, dog-loving and whatever breeder have four litters from a bitch with, say, all in all 28 pups, I will sell, let`s say, 26 of those. But in order to know about the health background of those two left to me, I absolutely need to have also the health results from the other 26. And this has absolutely nothing to do with whether a breeder is cheating or anything. This is all about data.

Let me give you another example of what I would consider an ideal breeder (from Switzerland, by the way):

Haredale Labradors

Have a look at their list of litters where EVERY result is pubslished. And read what Verena Ommerli writes about choosing the right stud for her bitches, it will be worth reading! The article is here (it is actually available in English):

Why we are not progressing in breeding Labrador retrievers 

and she is just right.



Golden Leo said:


> They don't care if you from Germany would like to buy or wouldn't like to buy pup from them. I am very happy and proud to have their pup.


This seems to be a very emotional topic for you. I am sorry if I insulted your pup; this I certainly did not want to do. I am sure it is great.

Still, if we want to breed healthier retrievers, maybe we should be more objective about what kind of information and breeding regulations are needed.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

perdie said:


> When pups they are limited to how much exercise they should have due to concerns of dysplasia so running will be out of the question up until about 1 year.
> Would an 8 year old senior dog be happy with an energetic puppy bouncing around the house when all he wants to do is sleep?
> Just a few concerns any good breeder would have I think in homing one of their prize pups. Dont mean to be mean so please dont be offended.



Running on good surfaces like fields and forest is not out of the question for a young golden because of dysplasia fears. Running and playing does not create dysplasia. A six month old golden needs plenty of off leash running and playing to develop. A young golden should not be jogged on leash so that he cannot stop and start the way dogs move naturally, nor should he be running on concrete, pavement, or slippery surfaces. However, a young sporting dog should not be confined for the first year. Too little exercise can lead to weak/down pasterns, poor muscle development, overweight, and behavior problems. 

My 8 year old senior dog is lean, fit, and up for two hours of hiking or seagull-chasing at the beach in chest deep water. The temperament & habits of the dog has more to do with activity level than age.

I do agree that a golden is not the best choice of breed just to lay on a couch all day. However, a golden whose needs are met for a good dose of daily exercise, both physical and mental, is a joy in the house if trained properly from the getgo.


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## Golden Leo (Dec 3, 2008)

> And isn`t it a real pity that from all those countries all over the world, you can get the kind of data that I think is a MINIMUM from only a few? Not only Sweden and Germany, by the way. But it could certainly be more.


First of all it is global question and it is not on me to do something like that. Many breeders don't even have websites so why expect to have published all litters and health results? Would this kind of online data be useful - of course but who is influential enough to do something like that? In Croatia, GR breeders are not very united so that kind of thing is not probable. 



> Exactly, the represent MINIMUM requirements. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in FCI regulations forbidding a breeding club from adding additional requirements. Why did the Croatia Kennel Club not do so? What are the reasons for this? By the way, unfortunately, the Croatia Kennel Club is not alone with this. But I`d really like to know - why? If the breed is oh so healthy, additional requirements are no problem. And if the breed is not so healthy, additional requirements will help.


Simply because there are hundreds of breeds that CKC is taking care of and they left that job on HRK (croatian retriever club) but they didn't do anything on that question. Why- I really can't tell, I'm not even a member, mostly because of things like that.



> I don`t think I ever said or implied anybody cheating on health results or setting up shows and not working very hard. The problem is that if I as a hard working, trustworthy, dog-loving and whatever breeder have four litters from a bitch with, say, all in all 28 pups, I will sell, let`s say, 26 of those. But in order to know about the health background of those two left to me, I absolutely need to have also the health results from the other 26. And this has absolutely nothing to do with whether a breeder is cheating or anything. This is all about data.


As I said, just because it's not online it doesn't mean that kind of data is not available. For instance, I have data from breeders that I took my dog from for all dogs that have scanned HD, ED, PRA, littermates and past litters. They don't have it on their website, but owners of their pups informed them and believe me, they are first to call when something is wrong but in most cases they call and let them know hips and elbows are ok. 

Where our "problem" started is this sentence


> Personally, I would take a very close look at clearances when buying from France, Belgium, Netherland and England also. And even more so when buying from Yugoslavian region... which I simply wouldn`t do.


I ask once again - why? We already concluded that that kind of data is not available in "France, Belgium, Netherlands and England" but you (I guess that is what you would recommend to all) would still buy from those countries but not from Yugoslavian region. I simply ask where does this prejudice come from? Is there any concrete evidence for opinion like that or it is pure prejudice?

And just to inform you of weird coincidence - Recently I found kennel in Germany that bases their breeding on lines I dream of and after "sniffing" a bit about them, as I considered buying pup from them,- I've never seen more illness in GR anywhere in the world- severe HD, severe ED, epilepsy, cryptorchidism... So even strict regulations as you brag of, can't stop mother nature....

And yes, this topic is very emotional for me since we stand every day in front of that kind of prejudice and I'm really getting tired of it....


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Perhaps I can comment on this having judged goldens in Germany many times and also in Croatia and having bred goldens in the UK for over 40 years.
Health clearances are important but so is temperament and the dog having the ability to do the job it was bred for. Yes, we want healthy dogs with good hips and clear eyes but I also want a dog without epilepsy, entropian and a dog I can trust with young children and be proud of the way it behaves. None of those attributes are tested for except for one temperament test in Germany( which is not breed specific) Longevity is also important and retaining the basic retrieving instincts of the breed.
I am some what disturbed to read that health tests in the UK are questioned as ALL our results are published in the breed record supplement (but not necessarily on line) and data is accurate.
So my advice would be you can trust the UK results but buy the breed record supplement, for hip breeding data look at the standfast data web site as the information is taken from the breed record supplement.
As for me, if I were buying a golden and couldn't buy in the UK I certainly wouldn't rule out buying from Croatia or some of the other neighbouring countries there are some super dogs in that area. There are puppy farmers/commercial breeders in all parts of the world and you shouldn't condem these breeders without having been there and seeing their dogs. Would I buy from Germany?? I'll leave you to think about that one Annef


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## molly12 (Oct 29, 2010)

I need to catch up with you guys in this subject and maybe I will be able to help you and give you some answers to your questions as I am a breeder from Europe exactly from Poland and I personaly know some breeders who import dogs from all over the continent but in order to not make a mess in here I have to read everything that has already been said


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## 4991 (Apr 18, 2008)

Golden Leo said:


> ... they left that job on HRK (croatian retriever club) but they didn't do anything on that question. Why- I really can't tell, I'm not even a member, mostly because of things like that.


Yes, they did not do anything on that question. See if you can find out why and you´ll be surprised - not necessarily in a positive way. 



Golden Leo said:


> As I said, just because it's not online it doesn't mean that kind of data is not available.


But the data doesn`t help me choosing a puppy if I cannot get it from anybody else than the breeder. 



Golden Leo said:


> I ask once again - why? We already concluded that that kind of data is not available in "France, Belgium, Netherlands and England" but you (I guess that is what you would recommend to all) would still buy from those countries but not from Yugoslavian region. I simply ask where does this prejudice come from?


Because if I, being in the US, were to search for a puppy from Europe, I`d start with the data I can verify from somebody else than the breeder himself. And at least the UK Kennel Club can give me some data. And just to be sure we understand each other here - I am NOT questioning the accuracy of the data from UK; I am saying that a lot more dogs could be tested in the UK. I would take a close look at whether all or as many as possible relevant dogs in the (vertical) pedigree actually have clearances, i.e. littermates of parents and so forth.



Golden Leo said:


> I've never seen more illness in GR anywhere in the world- severe HD, severe ED, epilepsy, cryptorchidism... So even strict regulations as you brag of, can't stop mother nature....


I absolutely believe that. But YOU HAVE SEEN it. Of course there are all these problems in Germany as well. Have I ever said different? No. But at least you can VERIFY IT from a THIRD SOURCE, i.e. the kennel club data. And chose not to buy - as you did. Not seeing this kind of "bad" data doesn`t mean dogs are healthy. Just that, unfortunately, if you buy, you buy from out of a "Black Box".

This seems to me to be a much better way than to ask a breeder - so, how about HD/ED, other illnesses in your lines? And the breeder tells you, oh, I have wonderful health results. A few puppies have not been tested (and I wonder, why - just read through Verena Ommerlis article again and get a few ideas) but everythings just peachy.

By the way, I don`t understand why this is such a "nationalistic" issue - it is as if every one suddenly has to defend the nation`s pride... I have no problem with admitting that things in Germany are not perfect. There are lots of things to improve. It`s just that data-wise, Germany is pretty good (not perfect but compared to other countries...).

And here, to show how much is possible, a link to the database for Labradors from Finland - very impressive:

Finland


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Because if I, being in the US, were to search for a puppy from Europe, I`d start with the data I can verify from somebody else than the breeder himself. And at least the UK Kennel Club can give me some data. And just to be sure we understand each other here - I am NOT questioning the accuracy of the data from UK; I am saying that a lot more dogs could be tested in the UK. I would take a close look at whether all or as many as possible relevant dogs in the (vertical) pedigree actually have clearances, i.e. littermates of parents and so forth.

Breeding dogs, bred by reputable show breeders but not commercial breeders in the UK, are tested. When dogs are sold for showing and/or breeding they are also tested. No, pet people tend not to test their dogs. They want a dog that behaves like a golden that is healthy and lives a long life. I am fortunate in that some of the puppies I breed go into show homes and so are tested so I probably have more data than some. I really feel that if you were buying a puppy and would not trust the breeder to give you the correct data then don't buy. Trust is a two way thing though! Annef


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Sorry, the first few lines of that message were quoted from the previous message. I know how to do that now! Annef


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## 4991 (Apr 18, 2008)

annef said:


> No, pet people tend not to test their dogs. They want a dog that behaves like a golden that is healthy and lives a long life.


Yes, they want a golden that is healthy. And in order to breed healthy dogs, you do not look at parents` clearances alone, do you? You look at the vertical pedigree and offsprings. I once again quote

Why we are not progressing in breeding working Labradors

I think we are basically on the same page here as you yourself say that you are 



annef said:


> ...fortunate in that some of the puppies I breed go into show homes and so are tested so I probably have more data than some.


Yes, I absolutely agree, you are fortunate to have a lot of data. Because the data is necessary in order to judge a pairing. Great for you to have it. But you will agree that not all registered breeders in the UK have this much data (I have here before me the print out for Labrador tests and some kennels are so totally underrepresented, it`s a shame) and this is why I said I´d have a close look at the clearances. If you find a breeder with good data - sure, buy there.

As for pet people - I agree, this is a problem. If you look at DRC database, you will find a lot of holes in the database and some of these certainly have their origin in the fact that people just didn`t think it necessary to test their pet dogs. But on the other hand, you will find tons of data for pet dogs as well. It is possible to get pet owners to test their dogs. I know breeders who request additional money on top of the purchase price for the puppy. The money is refunded once the official health tests have been done. My breeder, for example, has sold her dogs mainly to "pet people" but has still got 23 dogs out of 30 hip tested because she talked and talked and talked and talked about the necessity of it.

PS: You can quote by clicking on the button "quote" at the end of the message that you would like to quote. Ups, sorry, just now saw that you found out on your own.


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## Golden Leo (Dec 3, 2008)

> Yes, they did not do anything on that question. See if you can find out why and you´ll be surprised - not necessarily in a positive way.


Look, goldens in Croatia came only 20 years ago. Lots of people come and go, there are rare ones from that generation that still breed and show dogs. And they are mostly tired, they are people with knowledge and far passed "enthusiasm" and that negative competitive character that is lately seen on show scene. They are mostly concentrated on their own breeding and rarely collaborate together. If you look at our kennels you very, very rarely see that they own each others dogs. Everyone is in their own vision and lines. So that is why very little interest for each other and doing something together. Most of our breeders aren't even members of Croatian retriever club but GRC in UK. So there is no surprise for me on that question. And I understand why is nothing happening on this question.










Mrs. Anne explained this thing very nicely and at the end I will tell you one story.



> But YOU HAVE SEEN it.


No, I found that out from a breeder that currently lives in Germany. 



> This seems to me to be a much better way than to ask a breeder - so, how about HD/ED, other illnesses in your lines? And the breeder tells you, oh, I have wonderful health results. A few puppies have not been tested (and I wonder, why - just read through Verena Ommerlis article again and get a few ideas) but everythings just peachy.


Now I will tell you the story how I met breeders I took my dog from.... 

Long, long time ago I was very enthusiastic about breeding, showing dogs etc.... I started to look for kennels that I could buy my first show dog from. ( I had wonderful golden as pet) I accidentally ran into one breeder, after many conversations they invited me to their home to visit them and see their dogs. At that time they had one absolutely gorgeous bitch. She was from imported dog (very beautiful) and from bitch they bought. Both of them had all clearances and great health. That bitch had over 20 winnings in junior class, at 9 months of age she was JBISS and BISS on club show where was entered over 150 goldens under Heather Morss. When I came and saw her I called her and she wouldn't come, she hide under the chair. Breeder said to me- ok, you want to be a breeder- tell me what is wrong with her. I had no clue, I just thought she was shy but I guessed it's fine since she doesn't know me. But he said- no- she has horrible temper. They did health tests which showed that she has severe HD and ED. Of course they excluded her from breeding. Everyone told them they're crazy and that they can forge health tests and breed on her. They could have sold as many pups she would give. BUT those people never bred on her, they told me all about her problems with no hiding anything, they never had litter from that stud again, called all owners of littermates and asked them not to breed on those dogs even though some of them had clear HD and ED. They didn't left any dog from her mother. Because THEY don't want health problems in their breeding. It would eventually come out. That is the moment I decided I want puppy from them. If they told me worst things about their dog I know they are honest people. They promised me a show pup and said- if we have a litter and we tell you that we don't have a dog for you in this litter it's not because we don't want to sell you pup but we really want to wait for very, very promising puppy for you. After few years of waiting I finally got my pup. One breeder from western Europe wanted him but they told him he was already reserved for me. That feeling I just can't describe....

They mostly sell their pups at pet homes- their logic is that it is better for pup to be in nice family and sleep on couch than to live a life in kennels. From my dogs mother - from her litters there are very few dogs that are not tested - simply because over time people loose contact with breeder. When new owner come to pick up puppy they ask them to X-ray them, for their information, they want to know what they breed. Some do, some don't. 


> No, pet people tend not to test their dogs. They want a dog that behaves like a golden that is healthy and lives a long life.


This is true and whole truth. And it is across whole world.


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## 4991 (Apr 18, 2008)

Golden Leo said:


> And I understand why is nothing happening on this question.


I actually still don`t. But it is a nice twist on the old "we don`t need control through regulations" theme.



Golden Leo said:


> No, I found that out from a breeder that currently lives in Germany.


And maybe he got the HD/ED information from the database. At least YOU could have checked it. Hearsay from other breeders - now _there _is some information I would not trust... What some breeders will tell you about others is just - amazing.



Golden Leo said:


> Mrs. Anne explained this thing very nicely and at the end I will tell you one story.


It is a nice and touching story and I am glad you found a breeder whom you trust so completely. 



Golden Leo said:


> BUT those people never bred on her, they told me all about her problems with no hiding anything, they never had litter from that stud again, called all owners of littermates and asked them not to breed on those dogs even though some of them had clear HD and ED.


I think it is fantastic that your breeder did this. However, this story just - once again - proves why an open database or at least easily available official data is so important. Because - what happens if one of those people they called decides to breed on his dogs, ie a littermate, anyway? Don`t you think puppy buyers or owners of bitches who use the littermate as a stud dog would like to know? And are you absolutely sure that the owners will say: "Oh, by the way, I got a call from the breeder of this dog to please not use it as a stud dog/breeding bitch because of HD/ED problems in the line but I decided to do so anyway?" 

Unfortunately, it is pretty much impossible to know from one or two meetings, possibly only a telephone call (if you`re from the US and buying in Europe) what kind of person you have there before you. I have one too many times heard from so called reputable breeders whom people find oh so trustworthy but who will either miraculously "forget" about dogs from their kennel with problems or who are simply not interested in getting all the necessary information. If I read through a thread like this

Looking for goldens with elbow dyplasia from Twin-Beau-D

I am really, really glad for the OFA database. Or does that sound like a breeder to you who is interested in finding out about problems in her lines?

But I think we have pretty much exhausted our arguments (or maybe could go on for pages, I don`t know) and readers, in particular puppy buyers from the US, will have to decide for themselves. If asked whether I - as a puppy buyer from the US - would buy in Europe from a breeder registered with a kennel club with strict breeding regulations and an open database or at least officially available data or from a breeder registered with a kennel club with less strict regulations and no easily officially available data, there`s no question - I would advice people to buy where they can actually check the data themselves. 

But, as I said, any puppy buyer will have to decide that for him/herself.


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## Golden Leo (Dec 3, 2008)

> I actually still don`t. But it is a nice twist on the old "we don`t need control through regulations" theme.


I really think I don't need to convince anyone to anything. We are not the only country in that question - and I have never, ever said that I think we don't need it.



> And maybe he got the HD/ED information from the database. At least YOU could have checked it. Hearsay from other breeders - now there is some information I would not trust... What some breeders will tell you about others is just - amazing.


No, she knows breeder personally. And I couldn't have checked it anywhere. I know that spoken word is double sided knife but sometimes others know something about the breeder that he won't tell. And all you can is decide is it worth the risk or not.



> It is a nice and touching story and I am glad you found a breeder whom you trust so completely.


I am extremely happy and I feel really blessed, specially now that I know what some people are capable to do to go "on top". I'm really glad to be out of it 



> I think it is fantastic that your breeder did this. However, this story just - once again - proves why an open database or at least easily available official data is so important. Because - what happens if one of those people they called decides to breed on his dogs, ie a littermate, anyway? Don`t you think puppy buyers or owners of bitches who use the littermate as a stud dog would like to know? And are you absolutely sure that the owners will say: "Oh, by the way, I got a call from the breeder of this dog to please not use it as a stud dog/breeding bitch because of HD/ED problems in the line but I decided to do so anyway?"


"If" questions always amuse me. What if.... And what if they forged her health tests and bred on her? And what if they didn't let the owners of other pups know about problem? If someone decides to breed one dog, all that happens happens on his conscience it is only question does he have a conscience. What would you say for people who know that there is character problem that one stud passed to most of his progeny (at least what I've heard and I saw) but he still has hundreds of progeny in whole Europe? HD and ED data can be found online, if not for that exact dog but for his ancestors, but who knows anything about the character? And I can have a dog who could be BOB at Crufts and have ideal health, but if he's afraid of his own shadow what does he needs his looks for?

I'm not sure how you have choose you pup, did you search litters who had smallest hip score or what?
When I choose a dog it goes on 2 ways - I look at pedigree and then search photos or info where he is so I can see him in person and then look for health or I see a dog that I like and then search for pedigree and then for health results. You would think she cares so little about health- but it is far from truth. I care a lot about it, but even if I find healthiest dog on the world- what can I do if he has lines I don't like or he's far away from what I think golden should be. So I guess, everyone who would find dog that he likes, lines that he likes he would make an effort to find out everything he wants to know about health. 



> I have one too many times heard from so called reputable breeders whom people find oh so trustworthy but who will either miraculously "forget" about dogs from their kennel with problems or who are simply not interested in getting all the necessary information.


I have just read it. It wasn't shocking for me at all. I don't know why would you think everyone in breeding is doing this for well being of dogs? Some the "reputable breeders" I don't even think they see their dogs, how many of dogs are in small kennels all day, sleep in cages in basement that stink of their own urin and are bathed just before the show, how many of them abuse their dogs for "ring training" and you just see they are scared of their own owners... That is also not written on web. If you're buying from US you just can't know that. You can't know how those dogs look like cause there is photoshop where you can edit any flaw he has. Even if photos are correct you can't know the height of the dog, if he's narrow in front, back, would he work or he's just photographed with duck in his mouth and tons of other things. I was very disappointed with some dogs and many owners when I saw them in person.


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## 4991 (Apr 18, 2008)

Golden Leo said:


> "If" questions always amuse me. What if.... If someone decides to breed one dog, all that happens happens on his conscience it is only question does he have a conscience.


I don`t think the owners of the puppies from that dog will think quite like that - it is, unfortunately, not only on the conscience of the breeder but also on puppy buyers love, heart, time and money. 



Golden Leo said:


> I'm not sure how you have choose you pup, did you search litters who had smallest hip score or what?


I pretty much do what`s described here:

Why we are not progressing in breeding Working Labradors - Haredale



Golden Leo said:


> I don't know why would you think everyone in breeding is doing this for well being of dogs?


I don`t. Which is why I would always, always check health clearances myself. Exactly my point .


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## Golden Leo (Dec 3, 2008)

I'm not sure in what kind of ideal world do you live.
Very few kennels can sell all pups for shows and usually those pups are tested. You can't force people by gun to tests dog for health, you can't force them to go hunting with them, on shows etc. 
I've read the text on website you posted. It makes it look so easy to choose your dog, to breed. I love theory, in theory everything works. I'll tell you that for 5 years I've been looking to buy a female and I'm still on start. If theory worked I would already have a bitch.
I looked a bit on that Labrador website and wondered how did they choose their brood bitch since I have so much difficulty and I found out something interesting. As I can tell from their informations only her father and grandfather have HD tests from whole pedigree Blagroves Bramble - Pedigree And yet, they choosed her to be brood bitch.


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## 4991 (Apr 18, 2008)

Golden Leo said:


> I'm not sure in what kind of ideal world do you live.


In Germany :--big_grin:



Golden Leo said:


> Very few kennels can sell all pups for shows and usually those pups are tested.


Usually? For whom? You`re kidding yourself if you are saying it is not possible to get more dogs tested. I can prove it is. 

Here`s the progeny from the littermate from my dog Jamies mother - Catch the Wind Eternity Progeny (14 out of 15 tested).

Here`s her mothers progeny: Styal Statonice (30 out of 31 tested).

And here the progeny form one of her daughters - Catch the Wind Jamie-Lee (7 out of 8 tested plus 7 who are younger than a year).

And this breeder sells the absolute majority of her puppies to pet owners.

Or, maybe another German breeder:

TQ A`Cabool Progeny (15 out of 18 tested)

Or another one:

Yentl of Graceful Delight Progency (18 out of 18 tested).




Golden Leo said:


> As I can tell from their informations only her father and grandfather have HD tests from whole pedigree Blagroves Bramble - Pedigree And yet, they choosed her to be brood bitch.


You´re kidding me - you really want to start going back to the 80s and 90s? With a dog born in 94? Maybe see if Lord Tweedmouth really did his x-rays? Well, good luck.

By the way, 24 out of 25 of her puppies got tested - Haredale.


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