# playing tug with hunting dogs



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Generally, playing tug with pups is a poor idea that all too often results in bad mouth habits. They tend to become possessive with retrieve objects, especially birds. Many times this effects delivery on command, and other even worse issues, such as hard mouth.

Might you get away with it? Sure, you might. Is it worth the gamble? No. Habits that tend to quickly form from activity like this are easy to form, but hard to cure. Being lucky and being smart are different things. You can control "smart" far better than "lucky".

EvanG


----------



## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Sometimes we play tug with BaWaaJige I dont play tug with his bumpers or his frisbee but with a rope toy. When he sees the rope toy he knows we are going to play tug. He has a soft mouth when it comes to birds and he always delivers his birds and bumpers to me. 

I also had people tell me I could not have free range fowl in my yard and train my dog to hunt birds so far I have a hunting dog and live geese,ducks and chickens in my yard. 
I think it is all in how you train. I use nothing but positive re-enforcement.


----------



## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Here is my background, I have little experience with field training, just the basics. We have only really trained JH/WC work. I primary train for agility. I want a dog that tugs for training purposes. She has a very soft mouth and I have worked hard on "rules for tugging". Her tugging on her tug toys has had no affect on birds.

Why do you want your dog to tug? If you really just want a hunting buddy and would like to play tug for fun, I would say no... Do not teach your dog to tug. Why chance it? There are lots of other games to play. 

For me tug is a structured game, something put on cue with "rules", almost always used as a reward for a good behavior...


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I also play tug with my dogs. They are taught to out, and tug has rules. To date there has been no carryover to birds; my Faelan has excellent hold & delivery of birds  although he tugs for play, agility and obedience too.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

We play tug, too, for agility and obedience and it hasn't affected his mouth. He has a beautiful natural hold, and doesn't ever freeze or stick on a bird. 
But we, too, have rules for tug. Only certain toys are "tug toys", and he knows the command "out" means to stop and open your mouth IMMEDIATELY.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Agreed with the others : tug is a staple in Slater's repertoire but it has rules. Out is immediate and he only tugs on things he's offered. He will very vigorously tug on bumpers, the leash, tug toy, whatever but I can command out or hold and he will either drop the item or freeze on it instantly. There is NO carry over with bad mouth habits in the field. Those too are taught/reinforced behaviors!


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> We play tug, too, for agility and obedience and it hasn't affected his mouth. He has a beautiful natural hold, and doesn't ever freeze or stick on a bird.
> But we, too, have rules for tug. Only certain toys are "tug toys", and he knows the command "out" means to stop and open your mouth IMMEDIATELY.


Sounds like the right way to do it if you're going to do it. Among old timers, tug is a no-no. PS I don't play tug.


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I confess we play tug and even tug on bumpers on occasion when I permit it. Never had a problem.


----------



## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

We play tug, but never with bumpers or birds. "Give" means stop and open mouth, no problem with carry over to field work.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I'll let mine tug on a bumper all the way to the line. Never had a problem, out means out.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

sure sounds like the vast majority of us do play tug, and not a one has reported a problem with it.
Dogs are pretty smart. If you have a golden retriever that can't tell the difference between a bird and a toy, methinks you have a pretty big problem on your hands!
To take that thought a little further, it's like people saying their dog can't sit, or heel, because he shows in the breed ring. Um....we never had a problem, and often ran directly from the breed ring to the obedience ring. Or people say don't do (obedience, agility, tracking, fill in the blank) another dog sport while you are training field, as the dog will get confused. Again, never had a problem. If my dog couldn't tell the difference between a wide open field outside, and a 40 foot ring covered with green matting inside, I'd be pretty worried about his intelligence.


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Good luck with that. Obviously not a lot of pros posting who have had to fix problems that didn't need to happen. Let him who has ears... :wavey:

EvanG


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

If there is a direct correlation between playing tug and a dog who freezes on birds then it's news to me. I think this is one of those things that linearly makes sense, but in real life doesn't play out. Much like, teaching your dog to speak on command is not going to make him more vocal at the line.


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> If there is a direct correlation between playing tug and a dog who freezes on birds then it's news to me. I think this is one of those things that linearly makes sense, but in real life doesn't play out. Much like, teaching your dog to speak on command is not going to make him more vocal at the line.


Apple, meet Orange. First, it's rarely freezing that decsends such activity. It is far more often stickiness on retrieve objects, especially those many of them prefer to stick on anyway. Much the same way many trainers throw an excess of fun bumpers, and then wonder why they have steadiness issues. 

It's not a constant; it's a risk. Go ahead and take those risks. Don't worry, it's the dog that will pick up the check. I'm only suggesting wisdom and empathy. It's not an absolute, so fire away. Lots of risk taker's get lucky. It seems to feel the same as having been smart.

Perhaps you should invest a career in training other people's dogs, especially the mega-birdy ones bred for trials. Having things like this "play out" keeps food the the table of many a pro. But there are many more things amatuers are willing to take chances on that produce similar types of results. Learn from them; don''t learn from them. There are no dog police. I merely gave an honest answer to what appeared to be an earnest question.

EvanG


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

gdgli said:


> Sounds like the right way to do it if you're going to do it. Among old timers, tug is a no-no. PS I don't play tug.


As I am following couple "old timers" I do not play tug with Rose either. It breaks my heart sometimes because she really wants to play tug. We stopped any bird retrieving due to her teething so I can't tell right now how she will be with birds and the few times we tried it is in no way any indication. 
I do entertain the idea of playing tug with one rope thus teaching the difference but I am too chicken to try it especially with a hardheaded sweet little bi*ch like her. .


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well I was going to say that if I had a dog prone to stickiness I probably would think twice before letting it tug on bumpers, although I still don't think I would worry about tug specific toys like a rope. I have seen dogs like that and wouldn't encourage the tug in that case but not worried about mine.


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> As I am following couple "old timers" I do not play tug with Rose either. It breaks my heart sometimes because she really wants to play tug. We stopped any bird retrieving due to her teething so I can't tell right now how she will be with birds and the few times we tried it is in no way any indication.


Have you tried paint rollers or other soft items?

EvanG


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I did not try paint rollers. She does have couple soft toys - poor chicken toy even though made in China took some pretty nasty abuse. She loves retrieving Chicken. During the teething we also did a frozen sock - I put a couple knots in it so it doesn't look like a sock (don't want to teach her that it is OK to "steal" socks). She did very good with the doves before teething. I was afraid to do it while her gums were bleeding. As of yesterday it seems like she has lost her last three baby teeth. I believe we can start again with birds in about a week or so after the teeth are back in. fro what I understand they will start teething again at about 9 months when they get the rest of the teeth in as the mouth grows along with the body. Correct me please if I am wrong. Thank you.


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

EvanG said:


> Apple, meet Orange. First, it's rarely freezing that decsends such activity. It is far more often stickiness on retrieve objects, especially those many of them prefer to stick on anyway. Much the same way many trainers throw an excess of fun bumpers, and then wonder why they have steadiness issues.
> 
> It's not a constant; it's a risk. Go ahead and take those risks. Don't worry, it's the dog that will pick up the check. I'm only suggesting wisdom and empathy. It's not an absolute, so fire away. Lots of risk taker's get lucky. It seems to feel the same as having been smart.
> 
> ...


 
In my training group the owners who have extremely birdy field bred dogs have a problem and I believe it is because they all play tug with their dogs (all except me, I don't play tug). One conformation dog in the group who happens to be very birdy has also become sticky. The owner plays tug with him. I haven't seen a problem with the others but then again they are not field bred dogs.

I believe that if you play tug, hotel4dogs has good advice. I refused to play tug in my obedience class because I don't like the risk.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The problem is that you have no control group. You don't know if those dogs would have been sticky or freeze on birds even if you hadn't played tug with them. There is no cause and effect proof anywhere. Perhaps the nature of a very birdy dog tends to cause them to be sticky, not playing tug?
I remember in a science class years ago the professor saying that almost 100% of all drug addicts began life drinking milk, therefore can we assume that drinking milk leads to drug addiction?
Anyway, I think that anyone who has any concern that playing tug with their dog might lead to mouth problems shouldn't do it. At least that way you aren't taking any chances.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

This is obedience related, but since hold is about the same in hunt where you don't want your dog carrying or holding birds slackjawed.... at least I imagine, as an outsider looking in.  

I had an amusing situation occur at class this past week where my instructor noticed my golden was mouthing his dumbbell again. While focusing on other facets of training, I haven't reviewed simple "hold" training in a long time - and it showed with Jacks returning to me with the dumbbell hinged on his lower canines and then mouthing the dumbbell while waiting for me to take it from him. Keep in mind he is not as tight around the mouth as he should be and I think his lips got pinched in the past while grabbing the dumbbell. 

The instructor pulled out a string and had me attach it to the dumbbell with the purpose of tugging at the dumbbell and encouraging Jacks to clamp down and correctly hold it. 

I immediately told her that my golden has no concept of playing tug with training objects. 

I guess background is I refused to play tug with him while he was young specifically because I think while the dogs are developing hormones and going through snap/guard phases, that it's best to encourage them to be as soft mouthed as possible. And absolutely not allow any growling behaviors, even in play. If you've ever gone through resource guarding issues with dogs, you'd understand why.

We introduced tug games later (when he was an adult), but we only play tug with toys or sticks. Never training objects, never when he knows he's supposed to be working. 

The instructor pushed me out of the way to show me how to train my dog to tug on the dumbbell, and she absolutely could not make him. The slightest "out" pressure with the string and he was immediately releasing - as I trained him. And not understanding when she corrected him (mildly, she knows why stronger corrections absolutely will not work on this dog).

The moral of the story I guess is if I wanted to reinforce hold that way, I probably would have played tug with dumbbells. 

I guess the rest is that I do believe that if you have trained your dog never to clamp down on birds... playing tug with toys or rope or leashes or whatever else will probably not translate to the bird. 

I can't even imagine my dog playing tug with birds. I imagine the actual concern is introducing PLAY when a dog has a bird in his mouth. Like with dumbbells, I would probably want my dog thinking "work" the entire time.


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Megora said:


> I can't even imagine my dog playing tug with birds. I imagine the actual concern is introducing PLAY when a dog has a bird in his mouth. Like with dumbbells, I would probably want my dog thinking "work" the entire time.


I appreciate your candid comments on this topic. Let me respond by addressing the core issue, and that is the source of prey drive, or what is more commonly known as desire to retrieve. The more driven a dog is for retrieving, the more possessive they tend to be about fetch objects. And that's a good thing, really. If a dog has that degree of desire the trainer has much to work with, and there is far less chance of insufficient desire impeding the development of fieldwork. A lesser prey drive requires a trainer to do much more soft-selling of the standard skills to avert the dog shutting down.

When we engage in games of tug with dogs of any age, especially pups that don't have any formal skills yet, we risk two things happening; one good, one bad. First, we risk our well driven dog becoming even more driven and possessive of game, and falling in love with the "fetch game". I regard that as a good thing, on condition that it's managed responsibly.

The second risk (more with some dogs than with others) is ramping that possessiveness up at such a pace that mouth behaviors get out of control. I've seen a number of them that required only a mere _exposure_ to this behavior - not only to get 'sticky' with fetch objects, but to react aggressively to having the object taken away. That's easier to manage with a pup, of course. But it's still an easier fire to light than to extinguish, and it can take on several very unpleasant forms.

The reason I'm making this much of a point about it is simply that, even though one might not see such reactions in numerous dogs, the risks of promoting it for what are really negligable benefits gained from the game of tug don't seem worth it. What _are_ the terrific benefits of playing tug vs. the risks? It's different in each dog. But I can tell you that, knowing most of the best trainers in North America today (and trained with 2 of the best who ever did it), I don't know _any_ who either play tug with a generality of dogs, nor any who advocate it.

It's been much more difficult to make this simple point than it should have been, so I'll bow out unless anyone has specific questions. This just connects to so many similar activities people involve their dogs in that have minimal real benefits vs. the risks. When I say "I love dogs" I'm not just saying "They're cute". It goes much deeper for me.

EvanG


----------



## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I have a question Evan. Of all these trainers that you know how many of them trained these dogs in another area other than field training?


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

General V said:


> I have a question Evan. Of all these trainers that you know how many of them trained these dogs in another area other than field training?


Several. Why?

EvanG


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

This is my personal dog "Moose". He's a beloved family pet, my buddy in the office, and gundog each of his 4 years - hunting geese, ducks, pheasant and chuckar. He was a $2,500 puppy because of the quality of his breeding. Below is his sire.










*FC AFC OTCH FTCH AFTCH* Can MOTCH TNT's Stanley Steamer UDX, WCX, MH, OBHF, FDHF, OS 

I'm not aware of any other living dog of any breed with more performance titles in more venues. As an aside; John and Janice Gunn, Stanley's owner/trainers, do not play tug. Would more examples help?

EvanG


----------



## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Moose is handsome... You are incorrect about Janice Gunn though. She does play tug.


----------



## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I may be new to this area but I do believe that a dogs know when it is work/training and when it is fun/play time. Your demeanor is different for one thing. As I stated I am new to working towards titles in the short time I have had my golden I think I have done pretty good. I have started points in hunt and rally. I am not a rich person so I could not attend all the competitions I wanted to. I do believe he would have titles in both areas if money had allowed it. BaWaaJige is smart as I believe most goldens are they know the difference between the field and ring and a good romp in the yard. I think it is in the training and the person doing the training. If you are unsure of yourself and your dog you are bound to make mistakes and your hesitations will transfer to your dog causing all sorts of trouble. I am not saying that I am perfect in my training I am not saying that my dog is better than anyone elses butwe do have a great bond that makes training/playing easy.

I was mearly asking if the trainers you know only do one thing. It is hard to understand training in different venues if you have not done it. You have to understand that different things will result in different behavior and you have to find what works for you and your dog. I was not trying to be snide or put you on the spot. I know that you are a field trainer so I wondered if you had trained in a different area. I know the field trainers that I know do not train these dogs to perform in different venues.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

This is one of those things where "It Depends" comes into play. 

For John Q Public's gun dog, it doesn't matter if the dog is a little sticky or slow on the release. So long as the dog isn't crushing or tearing the bird up, John doesn't care. 

If you're going to do Hunt Tests, Field Trials or other organized Field events, it's a whole different story. Here some slight hesitation on the release or being the slightest bit sticky can be the difference in winning or going home after the first series.


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

General V said:


> I was mearly asking if the trainers you know only do one thing. It is hard to understand training in different venues if you have not done it.


Many trainers try to be equally competitive in multiple venues. But your right; crossing over is hard to do for both human and dog, especially at a very high level. Most don't succeed. Generally, the results are more mediocre in the several areas of effort, with perhaps some special achievement in one or another. I've found field trials to be about all the challenge I care to place before a dog at one time.

Being a retriever specialist, I'm accutely sensitive to activities that adversely affect mouth habits. As for as how far reaching poor mouth habits are, it differs from venue to venue; not for the dog, but for the ribbons.

EvanG


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

sammydog said:


> Moose is handsome... You are incorrect about Janice Gunn though. She does play tug.


Thanks! He is even more beautiful in his personality and eagerness to please than he is in the looks department. He's a real clown!

In the two seminars I gave at John & Janice's place in Abbotsford she and I had many conversations on many topics. Apparently her stance on this is more fluid than our conversations indicated. The "tug" topic came up as a question from someone attending one of them. At that time we agreed that it was generally a practice that was not a good risk for a quality retriever being groomed for field sports, and that's as far as it went. Jan was not at the top of my list of examples when I mentioned the nation's top trainers. I was referring to FT pros in the US who train all retriever breeds at the highest levels. She's a fine trainer, and a great person. But John's work is more FT, while hers is weighted toward Obedience.

But there are more multivenue examples, if that's important.

EvanG


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

EvanG said:


> *FC AFC OTCH FTCH AFTCH* Can MOTCH TNT's Stanley Steamer UDX, WCX, MH, OBHF, FDHF, OS
> 
> I'm not aware of any other living dog of any breed with more performance titles in more venues. As an aside; John and Janice Gunn, Stanley's owner/trainers, do not play tug. Would more examples help?
> 
> EvanG


Oh I absolutely 100% guarantee you that Janice Gunn plays tug with her dogs!!!!!!! I've seen it in the flesh and she advocates it! Heck she sells TUG TOYS at her seminars!


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Janice, I believe, is one of the very great trainers whose ideas and methods have evolved over the years to include a great deal of positive, motivational, and playful ideas. I think if you look at her "current" beliefs, you will see a whole lotta tuggin' goin' on!


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

I certainly agree that Janice qualifies as a great trainer in the obedience venue, and she's had good success in field. But the top field trainer in the household is John. He's not as outgoing about his methods, so I have no idea where he stands on this relatively small topic. My mention of them is first, because they own the sire of my pup, and second is that said sire is titled in multiple venues. That was the question asked.

The trainers I referred to as not advocating this activity are top 20 FT pros. But this has already gone off the reservation - well beyond the relvance of the practice.

EvanG


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

hotel4dogs

What does your pro say about the matter? I really am curious and this is not a loaded question.

Actually I am quite surprised at the number of posters that play tug. I have adapted a lot of positive training methods but tug is one I won't use. I previously referred to the people in my group that do play tug and have problems. They all can be traced back to obedience trainers, not field trainers. Also they all are training their first dog for the field.

I don't play tug, I don't let kids play tug, and I don't let visitors play tug. I trace my own field training back to the old timers in my area---old time field trialers who would never play tug. And I believe that sticky mouth is one of the hardest faults to remedy. If tug might encourage stickiness in field bred dogs, I will continue to avoid this game.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

gdgli, I will have to remember to ask him. Tito was already well over 3 when we met, and we already played tug, and it never really came up!


----------



## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

The trainers I referred to as not advocating this activity are top 20 FT pros. But this has already gone off the reservation - well beyond the relvance of the practice.


I dont care for this statement at all since you all know that I am Native and my dog has a Native name I think it a slam directed at me which I dont care for at all please refrain from using it again. And I hardly see where this thread has gone off topic. Evan you were the one that said that field trainers do not advocate this. All I asked was a simple question " do they train in other areas" hardly off topic.


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

General V said:


> I dont care for this statement at all since you all know that I am Native and my dog has a Native name I think it a slam directed at me which I dont care for at all please refrain from using it again. And I hardly see where this thread has gone off topic.


General V, how on earth would I have any way of knowing you're native American, to start with? Second, I did not state or infer that anyone in particular had gone off _topic_. I only firmly implied that for such a small issue, pro or con, this has gotten an undue amount of play. I meant no slight to any native people, including you. I happen to be married to a Cherokee lady, and love the native people of this land.


General V said:


> Evan you were the one that said that field trainers do not advocate this. All I asked was a simple question " do they train in other areas" hardly off topic.


Your question was fine, except that it doesn't make any difference to me what venue a working retriever is being trained for. I see no reason to risk forming poor habits over a behavior that offers so little potential for good.

I didn't say "field trainers do not advocate this". I said the top US FT trainers with whom I'm acquainted don't. I'm a little amazed at all the passion about something that I believe offers so little upside.

EvanG


----------



## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I think the point missing is the why.. why tug...

In my first post I made the comment I disagree with tugging if all you want is a hunting buddy and to play a game called tug for fun.

Now with Evan's last comment "I believe offers so little upside" I have to say for the person who trains in multiple venues, tug offers a HUGE upside. It is a great training tool, which is why I think you see so many people commenting here, who do train in multiple venues, and they all tug... Field already has a build in rewards, birds and retrieving... 

But... all said and back to the original poster. If you just want a field buddy and don't plan on all the training. I don't see a reason to tug. It's not simply a fun game but a training tool and a lot of work goes it to using it properly. I just want that to be clear...


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

General V - sorry I also did not know that you are Native American. Just because the dogs name is does not automatically imply that you are. Many people who are not Native Americans use those names and words I assume as a form of respect and to bring back history which so often is forgotten. 
I truly doubt Evan G used the word Reservation in a derogatory way or directed towards you.


----------

