# Need advice/help on breeder I've selected



## Pointgold

This site only mentions hips and elbows, no cardiac or eye clearances. That alone makes me cringe, but worse, I can't find the dogs that they claim as having hips/elbows done in the OFA database. Unless they are not posting their names as registered on their site...

All in all I'd say run. For that price you cando FAR far better.


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## AkCrimson

Ohhhhh I was afraid of that. 

Anyone heard of Golden Gael ? Litter Page

I hope I can get my deposit back. What should I say? The truth...and then ask for my money back? Or make up a better story to ensure my refund?? 

Yikes! if I don't get this money back it will be a long time before I can afford a pup =(


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## Ljilly28

I would truly like a puppy from all three of these this Florida breeders.

KaraGold Goldens
Karen & Pat Brady
Brandon, FL USA 33509-2043
[email protected]
KaraGold Golden Retrievers - Florida

Saffire Goldens
Sheree Melhuish & Haley Whitcomb
Bradenton, FL USA 34212
[email protected]
www.SaffireGoldens.com
941-747-8710

http://www.cinnameggoldens.com/


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## Pointgold

I just plugged in several of their dogs names using different variations and I'm sorry but they are not showing as being in the OFA database. Even if they were, with just hips or hips and elbows, they are not doing cardiac or eye clearances. Both are critical. 

And frankly, the animals shown on their site appear to be of a marginal quality and $1400.00 is high.

I won't even address the "English Creme" bit.:no:


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## Ljilly28

A forum member has a gorgeous golden from here:
Lakewood Golden Retrievers

Forum member k9design is a great resource.


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## Pointgold

AkCrimson said:


> Ohhhhh I was afraid of that.
> 
> Anyone heard of Golden Gael ? Litter Page
> 
> I hope I can get my deposit back. What should I say? The truth...and then ask for my money back? Or make up a better story to ensure my refund??
> 
> Yikes! if I don't get this money back it will be a long time before I can afford a pup =(


Be honest. Tell them that you cannot in good conscience buy a dog whose ancestry is lacking any of the 4 important clearances. And tell them you are concerned that the dogs are not showing up in the OFA data base.


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## Pointgold

I would also add this - print out their web pages. No where does it say that a deposit is non-refundable. I would PRINT them to have IN HAND in case they challenge it, or, add the caveat later.


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## DNL2448

Did you sign any kind of a contract binding you with the deposit? I would read that and see if there are any no-return clauses.


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## AkCrimson

No I did not sign anything, it was all done electronically (I'm not in the states). It does say that the deposit is refundable on her website. Ugh, I do not need this headache. 

Thank you for all the help and suggestions so far.


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## Pointgold

AkCrimson said:


> No I did not sign anything, it was all done electronically (I'm not in the states). It does say that the deposit is refundable on her website. Ugh, I do not need this headache.
> 
> Thank you for all the help and suggestions so far.


 
_ "It does say that the deposit is refundable on her website."_
Good. Print THAT out, and request your deposit back.


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## AkCrimson

Okay, I'll have it printed tomorrow. Thanks.

Do you think it's feasible to search for a breeder further away that Florida? Orlando is a3.5-3 hours plane ride to Puerto Rico. I'm not sure if it's a good idea to search for a breeder in another state to find what I like.


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## Door

Definetly check out:

Gemini Goldens: AKC Breeder of Golden Retrievers Located in Rockledge, Florida

Welcome To Barkingham Palace Kennel in Central Florida!

Phone Candi Pearce.


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## Door

I can put you in touch with somebody who owns a Gemini Golden and lives on the Florida east coast and who originally is from Puerto Rico. She lives here but has a house in PR. Also she has shown her dog in AKC confirmation and obedience in PR, about 2 years ago.

That is just for your consideration. Actually, to get a really good GR, I don't think there is any length I would go to get him/her.


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## Deb_Bayne

How long ago did you give her the deposit? Most states have a 10 day buyer remorse law. Would this apply in this case?


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## AkCrimson

I was wrong, I don't see on her page that it says refundable. I have not heard a reply back. I will just have to call her and plead my case....and hopefully not lose 495$!!

I did get in touch with another breeder, Golden Gael Farms... she asks 2000 for her puppies...BUT it looks like her dogs have all the clearances and she was wonderfully knowledgeable and helpful on the phone. I told my fiancee though, and he is not willing to spend that much on just the dog. So...I don't really know what my options are at this point. A rescue/shelter dog, I suppose. I really had my heart set on a Golden Puppy though...


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## LibertyME

is the litter on the ground? If not, that may make it easier...she has time to line up another buyer...


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## AmbikaGR

Don't give up so quickly. If the $2000 is too much look around some more. There are numerous breeders in the Florida area that would be in price range of the first breeder and still have all the clearances and expertise you are looking for. However there is NOTHING wrong with a rescue/shelter dog if that is what you decide. :no:


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## nolefan

AmbikaGR said:


> Don't give up so quickly. If the $2000 is too much look around some more. There are numerous breeders in the Florida area that would be in price range of the first breeder and still have all the clearances and expertise you are looking for. However there is NOTHING wrong with a rescue/shelter dog if that is what you decide. :no:


Big thumbs up for these comments. I know you're horrified by this experience, but do not give up so easily. And honestly, you've learned something with this that will serve you well for the rest of your life. Extra research for a major life decision is always time well spent. And quite frankly, the $500 is a drop in the bucket if you end up with a puppy with major temperament or health issues that could possibly have been avoided had you gone with a breeder who properly screened his breeding stock. (Tell your fiance it's an invaluable life lesson!)

The recommendations for breeders given earlier in this thread are fantastic. I hope you will stand up tall and carry on with this. Keep us posted!


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## Kmullen

Door said:


> Definetly check out:
> 
> Gemini Goldens: AKC Breeder of Golden Retrievers Located in Rockledge, Florida
> 
> Welcome To Barkingham Palace Kennel in Central Florida!
> 
> Phone Candi Pearce.


I am very familiar with the florida breeders. I know Candi and I know she does have a litter planned ( I think she already bred them). She just had a litter with Presto (very light golden)...that probably would have been a great litter if you like them lighter. But, I am sure they are all sold. One of the forum members is getting on out of that one.


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## Kmullen

AkCrimson said:


> I was wrong, I don't see on her page that it says refundable. I have not heard a reply back. I will just have to call her and plead my case....and hopefully not lose 495$!!
> 
> I did get in touch with another breeder, Golden Gael Farms... she asks 2000 for her puppies...BUT it looks like her dogs have all the clearances and she was wonderfully knowledgeable and helpful on the phone. I told my fiancee though, and he is not willing to spend that much on just the dog. So...I don't really know what my options are at this point. A rescue/shelter dog, I suppose. I really had my heart set on a Golden Puppy though...


jovonnie is great, what dogs is she breeding? I will check that out. If you were willing to pay $1400 for a dog with no clearances...$2000 with known history of clearances is not that bad. Pm me if you need further help.


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## Kmullen

Ljilly28 said:


> A forum member has a gorgeous golden from here:
> Lakewood Golden Retrievers
> 
> Forum member k9design is a great resource.


Anney would be a great resource. Paula (Lakewood), does not have anything planned until end of year or spring of next year.


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## Pawsnfur

I don't know if you are interested, but I have one puppy available now. He is 12 weeks old. His father is Gemini's X Statis. Rockledge Golden Retrievers,  Orange Park,  Florida. Dylan is his call name. Here is his mothers pedigree. Pedigree: Liebchen's Olympian Gold Inspiration. He is a medium gold color. His mother and grandmother are graduated service dogs. If you are looking for a well coated, gorgeous dog, he will be beautiful. I was asking $1200 but have reduced him to $900 due to his age. He is vaccinated, dewormed, and microchipped. Both parents are OFA certified with hips, knees, elbows, eyes and heart done. I live in Jacksonville, FL


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## K9-Design

Is Paradise goldens Robin Edwards? Sheesh I think that is her name. She doesn't show or do clearances, forget it.
There are LOTS of good breeders in Florida. If you are trying to find "English cream" goldens you are really limiting yourself and for no good reason. 
Check out Mid Florida Golden Retriever Club and click on puppy referral. There are litters available now listed.
Feel free to PM me and I can help you further if you need it. Best of luck.


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## K9-Design

Ljilly28 said:


> I would truly like a puppy from all three of these this Florida breeders.
> 
> KaraGold Goldens
> Karen & Pat Brady
> Brandon, FL USA 33509-2043
> [email protected]
> KaraGold Golden Retrievers - Florida
> 
> Saffire Goldens
> Sheree Melhuish & Haley Whitcomb
> Bradenton, FL USA 34212
> [email protected]
> www.SaffireGoldens.com
> 941-747-8710
> 
> Welcome - www.cinnameggoldens.com


Jill, FYI Kathy Flaherty (Cinnameg) only has boys and doesn't breed litters.


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## IowaGold

Maybe you can petition for a refund if you go by the angle that she says the dogs' hips/elbows are certified when they clearly are not?


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## Shalva

K9-Design said:


> "English cream" goldens you are really limiting yourself and for no good reason.



people have preferences and that is fine.... I would never sit back and say 

gee you want just an american style golden you are limiting yourself for no good reason.... 

preferences are preferences

maybe we should say gee you are limiting yourself to a golden retriever ... for no good reason... get a lab... or a flat coat... 

there is absolutely nothing wrong with someone having a preference... shoot I have a preference and while ENGLISH CREME,CREAM,PLATinum, snow, white etc may be the wrong terms to use there is nothing wrong with someone having a preference

there are reputable breeders of the type its a matter of finding them... i they are going to fly the pup anyway then perhaps they should take a look at some of the breeders that are a bit beyond florida... the EGNA website is a good place to start and while there is nobody listed in florida there are folks in VA, NC, and SC which honestly when you are flying means an extra half an hour....


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## Ljilly28

K9-Design said:


> Jill, FYI Kathy Flaherty (Cinnameg) only has boys and doesn't breed litters.


Good networking though!


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## AkCrimson

Oh no no no let me make this clear, I am NOT saying, nor did I ever say, that I want an "English Cream Golden". I merely picked the litter because I liked the way the parents looked. Obviously that was stupid of me and I've learned my lesson! I have a preference for a lighter colored, more slender Golden, but that is all. Of course if the right dog comes along I would consider other looks. 

Thank you for the Mid Florida link, and other links/emails! I am not going to give up, I am just put out by all of this. I've emailed several other breeders (around 10), and have already had 3 come back saying they will not ship their dogs. I understand the concern but I hope this is not going to be my final roadblock! 

I just sent off an email to the breeder (Melisa Coleman is her name), explaining that my first stipulation for a pup was that he had his clearances. She never claimed the parents had them, I saw where one dog did and I assumed they all did. So that was my fault. She's been pretty helpful so far, let's hope she's reasonable.


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## Pointgold

Shalva said:


> people have preferences and that is fine.... I would never sit back and say
> 
> gee you want just an american style golden you are limiting yourself for no good reason....
> 
> preferences are preferences
> 
> maybe we should say gee you are limiting yourself to a golden retriever ... for no good reason... get a lab... or a flat coat...
> 
> there is absolutely nothing wrong with someone having a preference... shoot I have a preference and while ENGLISH CREME,CREAM,PLATinum, snow, white etc may be the wrong terms to use there is nothing wrong with someone having a preference
> 
> there are reputable breeders of the type its a matter of finding them... i they are going to fly the pup anyway then perhaps they should take a look at some of the breeders that are a bit beyond florida... the EGNA website is a good place to start and while there is nobody listed in florida there are folks in VA, NC, and SC which honestly when you are flying means an extra half an hour....


 
I don't see at all that this was about a preference, but rather the use of that particular incorrect terminology. And going with breeders using that term can be very limiting insofar as the quality and health of the dogs. No one disputes that there are very reputable breeders who are producing the English style of dogs, and that it is the preference of many. People are attempting to steer potential puppy buyers away from the "English creme" scammers and TO those reputable breeders.


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## Shalva

I dont have a problem with steering people toward reputable breeders AT ALL.... I have a problem with the statement "you are limiting yourself for no good reason" thats all I was addressing... nothing more... if that is the preference then perhaps we should go with that and help her/him find a reputable breeder within that preference. 

When I get people contacting me about a puppy and ask for a referral or help I will ask if they have a style preference... if they don't care then I am happy to send them to breeders of American style dogs... if they came to me because of the English style then I make sure to send them to breeders who are going to be reputable of that style dog...


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## HiTideGoldens

I didn't interpret Anney's statement to be a dig at anyone who prefers English style goldens. It was a dig at the people who advertise "English Cream/Creme/White/Platinum Retriever" puppies, if anything.

But I agree, if he has a preference he should be referred to reputable breeders who breed the style of goldens he likes.


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## Pointgold

Shalva said:


> I dont have a problem with steering people toward reputable breeders AT ALL.... I have a problem with the statement "you are limiting yourself for no good reason" thats all I was addressing... nothing more... if that is the preference then perhaps we should go with that and help her/him find a reputable breeder within that preference.
> 
> When I get people contacting me about a puppy and ask for a referral or help I will ask if they have a style preference... if they don't care then I am happy to send them to breeders of American style dogs... if they came to me because of the English style then I make sure to send them to breeders who are going to be reputable of that style dog...


 

Anney wrote: "If you are trying to find "English cream" goldens you are really limiting yourself and for no good reason.
I probably shouldn't presume to speak for Anney, but I think you are taking this personally. I believe that she was referring to limiting oneself to less than reputable breeders because that is generally who uses the term. I don't think it had anything to do with preference, but I may be wrong.


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## Shalva

and I may be over sensitive it honestly does get old after a while so it may be me as well....


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## CarolinaCasey

You're limiting yourself by not meeting the breeders. I'm not a breeder, but if I were-- I wouldn't ship a puppy out of the country without meeting the person. Why not fly out to pick up the puppy and fly back with him/her under your seat? This leaves the entire US in your search! You could essentially fly anywhere in the US and get exactly what you want that way.


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## K9-Design

I think my statement is being interpreted correctly by both Shalva and the others. 
I didn't mean it as a dig to English/European style goldens at all.
I can appreciate that certain people prefer certain styles of goldens and so long as their pursuit to perpetuate that is done ethically I think that's wonderful.
However let's face it, 99% of the potential pet buying public doesn't really know what ENGLISH style is....they see a light coated dog and to them that is English. The true type, structure and style is completely lost on them. What you (Shalva) are pursuing might have the same name but all the nuances you strive for are completely meaningless to those who pop up and say "I want to buy an English cream golden!" Which of course you already are quite aware of!
An English golden offers no benefits to the pet owning public over any other type of golden. They are no more or less healthy, temperamental, etc. If what they seek is actually just a light colored dog vs. a darker one, they can find that without going specifically to an English breeding. THAT's what I meant.
It's also kind of annoying to have pet people insist on a certain physical attribute -- size, color, coat, whatever -- which is completely arbitrary to their goal of a nice pet. Then to meet these demands they find some con-artist breeder who can fill that need. Meanwhile GREAT puppies available from GREAT breeders are out there...Call it a pet peeve of mine, it drives me crazy to hear it....
I guess it's just an innocent naivety...like you wouldn't think twice and no one would give you a hard time about seeking a certain color when buying a new car but it's just not that simple with dogs.


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## Pointgold

Shalva said:


> and I may be over sensitive it honestly does get old after a while so it may be me as well....


What gets old? Reading people here encouraging people to contact reputable, responsible breeders, no matter what their style preference is? And to dissuade them from falling for the "Alpine White" "British Cream" "English Creme" nonsense? Really, if someone were to contact me wanting such a creature, I would educate them and refer them to YOU (or other breeders LIKE you). No one is bashing that style of dog. I've said a thousand times that I appreciate a good one.


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## Shalva

K9-Design said:


> It's also kind of annoying to have pet people insist on a certain physical attribute -- size, color, coat, whatever -- which is completely arbitrary to their goal of a nice pet. Then to meet these demands they find some con-artist breeder who can fill that need. Meanwhile GREAT puppies available from GREAT breeders are out there...Call it a pet peeve of mine, it drives me crazy to hear it....
> I guess it's just an innocent naivety...like you wouldn't think twice and no one would give you a hard time about seeking a certain color when buying a new car but it's just not that simple with dogs.


So how is this different than people who want red... shoot how many times do we see people who are clammering for redheads.... they want a dark color... shoot it is exactly the same thing... it is preference... yet I don't see the same animosity toward those that come in wanting red... yet someone who wants "english style" or a light colored dog we pounce on .... 

that is my point and my only point...read the threads when someone mentions "english" style and watch the hackles go up... or lets see just last week there was a thread in the main section again being not very nice about the type.... 

instead of implying that their preferences mean nothing .... why not just help them find a reputable breeder of the style and teach them what to look for or not look for....


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## DNL2448

Shalva said:


> So how is this different than people who want red... shoot how many times do we see people who are clammering for redheads.... they want a dark color... shoot it is exactly the same thing... it is preference... yet I don't see the same animosity toward those that come in wanting red... yet someone who wants "english style" or a light colored dog we pounce on ....
> 
> that is my point and my only point...read the threads when someone mentions "english" style and watch the hackles go up... or lets see just last week there was a thread in the main section again being not very nice about the type....
> 
> instead of implying that their preferences mean nothing .... why not just help them find a reputable breeder of the style and teach them what to look for or not look for....


English style, field type way different then "rare English Cream, American Red". One is used to describe the type or look of a dog the other is a marketing ploy used by unscrupulous breeders. If someone says, I am looking for an English type/style dog I know who I would point them to. If they want an English Cream, Silver, blah blah, I know these people are clueless, and need some educatin'. I get frustrated with people wanting reds too. Red is not in the breed standard, but Dark Gold is. Dark gold just happens to look, in the right light, red .


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## HiTideGoldens

Shalva said:


> yet I don't see the same animosity toward those that come in wanting red... yet someone who wants "english style" or a light colored dog we pounce on ....


I think we all know that the difference is that there are many many many unscrupulous people who claim to be breeding "rare English Cream/Creme/Platinum/White" retrievers....to the point where people mistakenly think it's a different breed and think an english style dog is always very very light, always more desirable, always healthier, always better tempered, etc etc etc. And there are a heck of a lot more people that come on here looking for the elusive "English Cream Retriever" than a red golden. If that were all happening regarding "american red retrievers" it would bug me just as much.


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## Shalva

I am responding specifically to the passages mentioned in my post.... 

everyone says they would send them to reputable english breeders but there is another post by I think Kelly an older post where she was looking for a reputable english breeder and had to defend her reasoning... everyone says they wouldn't give them a hard time but thats not what happens... 

I do believe that pointgold can appreciate a dog of either style that is structurally sound etc.... 

but try reading these posts from my perspective and others who have english style dogs... I am not the only one of us that feels this way... 

I will say it again... there is nothing wrong with someone wanting an english style dog and if they need educating they need educating... my dogs for example DO have color... I prefer them to have color... My own mentors English dogs DO have color.. so people do need educating... but go look at the threads about the "red heads" .... 

there are reputable breeders of english style dogs... that is my point... my one and only point and people are allowed to have preferences.


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## HiTideGoldens

I wonder if people think the "red heads" are thrown by the wayside in the English Cream movement, so they're more likely to be ok with people wanting a red colored dog? 

For me, most people I've met (in person, not on here) who want "English Cream Retrievers" think it is better than a Golden Retriever....but the people who want a "red head" generally want a dog that looks like the ones they grew up with. I guess I'm more ok with the latter, since it seems to truly be personal preference, rather than the former, which seems to be using their "rare" dog as some sort of status symbol.

I have an acquaintance from law school who refused to believe that his "English Cream Retriever" was a golden retriever. He got very irritated when I called the dog a golden and kept correcting me saying that we did not have the same breed. That reaction is what rubs me the wrong way. It has nothing to do with the reputable breeders of English style goldens....but I could see how it would be exceedingly frustrating to be in your shoes with all the dingbats claiming to be breeding English Cream dogs.


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## DNL2448

Shalva said:


> I am responding specifically to the passages mentioned in my post....
> 
> everyone says they would send them to reputable english breeders but there is another post by I think Kelly an older post where she was looking for a reputable english breeder and had to defend her reasoning... everyone says they wouldn't give them a hard time but thats not what happens...
> 
> I do believe that pointgold can appreciate a dog of either style that is structurally sound etc....
> 
> but try reading these posts from my perspective and others who have english style dogs... I am not the only one of us that feels this way...
> 
> I will say it again... there is nothing wrong with someone wanting an english style dog and if they need educating they need educating... my dogs for example DO have color... I prefer them to have color... My own mentors English dogs DO have color.. so people do need educating... but go look at the threads about the "red heads" ....
> 
> there are reputable breeders of english style dogs... that is my point... my one and only point and people are allowed to have preferences.


Okay, I guess I am confused. Shalva, do you breed/have rare English Cream Retrievers, or do you have Golden Retrievers? Not talking color or style here, just the rare breed or established breed? I am NOT being condesending, but I guess there is an interpretation here that I am not understanding. :no:


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## Shalva

I do think that is what it is... or at least part of it... but the animosity doesn't appear to be there... I agree with everyone about the whole creme,cream,white,platinum,silver etc etc... it drives me crazy... do you know how many eamils I got after Oprah did her darned dog show thing from people who wanted white goldens just like oprah.... 

BUT and I choose to educate or not depending on the email itself.. but honestly I expect more from this board and the people here ... I dont expect it from the general public but having been here a while now and having been put on the defensive at least a few times... I would think that the folks here would start to understand that NOT EVERY breeder is not reputable... but sometimes the comments just drive me crazy....

my dogs are golden retrievers who are english style and yes they are lighter in color than the average golden and a couple of them could probably be called cream... they are registered as light gold.... in the same way that red is registered most certainly as dark gold....


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## Ljilly28

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I wonder if people think the "red heads" are thrown by the wayside in the English Cream movement, so they're more likely to be ok with people wanting a red colored dog?
> 
> For me, most people I've met (in person, not on here) who want "English Cream Retrievers" think it is better than a Golden Retriever....but the people who want a "red head" generally want a dog that looks like the ones they grew up with. I guess I'm more ok with the latter, since it seems to truly be personal preference, rather than the latter, which seems to be using their "rare" dog as some sort of status symbol.


I think this is a really sensible, true post. Even though I have really been educated now on type and conformation etc, there is something about "red" dogs like my Finn that fulfills an image set deep in childhood of a golden as a red dog. Meanwhile, without fail, the clients I meet think they have something BETTER than a golden in a "british retriever" even if it is easty westy as heck with a sway back. A truly well bred English golden is a treasure- too bad so many bad breeders lie and say they produce them. I see why it is intensly frustrating for good, hardworking, responsible breeders of real English.


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## Sally's Mom

Every time I go into the local dog friendly bank, one of the tellers tells me she has the "English block head type Golden". I can't help it, but it gets my hackles up....


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## DNL2448

And that's what I thought. We are a great community built on our preferences and they are varied to say the least. We all agree (at least most of us on this forum) that there are greeders out there marketing the rare EC and unfortunatly what started off as a type or style turned, by some twist of fate, into a marketing ploy. The verbiage is so close, that it confuses John Q Public that they fall into the trap. I think on the other side of the coin, why the "reds" aren't as frowned upon, is if one looks back to the first Golden show dogs, they resemble more the field dogs of today, vs. what is currently in the show ring. Good bad or indifferent, its the way it is, as you said. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


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## Sally's Mom

And my childhood best friend had a dog in the 70's that they bragged was "English." I thought he was the most neurotic dog(always had something in his mouth, etc) and quite frankly he looked white and most goldens at that time were dk golden... Well, now my guys with their various shades of gold need something in their mouths and I don't call it neurotic!!!


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## HiTideGoldens

I'm glad this isn't just me. For some reason I feel compelled to "defend" the darker gold Golden Retrievers in those conversations...but I also generally stay out of the "I want an English Cream" threads now to avoid being annoyed.

I have to say though, it also irritates me when people say Jack will be over 100 lbs when he's fully mature (my standard response is "only if he's 25 lbs overweight!") or call my little coat-less girl Chloe a lab (her coat is FINALLY coming in and she has a tail and feathers!!!!). Maybe I'm just easily annoyed?


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## Ljilly28

Tally spent the day at the Maine Mall bc they invited "therapy animals" to meet & greet the public. A random woman argued with me for quite a while that she knew he was a "british creme" bc of his head and it was like she thought I din't know my stuff when I said he was not, lol.


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## Ljilly28

Florida breeder Topbrass produces a more performance-focused golden.

http://www.topbrass-retrievers.com/litters.htm


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## cory

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'm glad this isn't just me. For some reason I feel compelled to "defend" the darker gold Golden Retrievers in those conversations..


I wish I was knowledable enough to be able to defend my Dakota who is a light gold Golden Retriever because she is a great dog!!!!  I am a first time Golden Retriever owner and I just liked the lighter color dogs so I guess that makes me part of the problem of the fad that you describe but to be honest I wouldn't trade my Dakota in for the world. I'm just a mom who wanted a pet and did her research and found Dakota so I can't speak to everything you all can but I can say that as a pet owner I also get very defensive of her and I bet when my kids grow up they will probably look for lighter colored Golden Retrievers just as some of you look for the darker goldens. I always just assumed a Golden Retriever was a Golden Retriever no matter the color.


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## K9-Design

Shalva said:


> So how is this different than people who want red... shoot how many times do we see people who are clammering for redheads.... they want a dark color... shoot it is exactly the same thing... it is preference... yet I don't see the same animosity toward those that come in wanting red... yet someone who wants "english style" or a light colored dog we pounce on ....
> 
> that is my point and my only point...read the threads when someone mentions "english" style and watch the hackles go up... or lets see just last week there was a thread in the main section again being not very nice about the type....
> 
> instead of implying that their preferences mean nothing .... why not just help them find a reputable breeder of the style and teach them what to look for or not look for....


It's no different and if (and probably "when" -- as it's happened) someone came in demanding a RED golden I'd tell them the same thing. (No difference as a pet, not all field goldens are red, you can find red goldens in any pedigree, choose breeder based on certain parameters, blah blah.) It's no different. You probably pay more attention when English is mentioned though, so you remember that.


----------



## Shalva

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'm glad this isn't just me. For some reason I feel compelled to "defend" the darker gold Golden Retrievers in those conversations...


and that is exactly how I feel in many of these conversations... and I am not the only judging by the private messages that come across my box


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## AkCrimson

I got my refund . And I am looking into the 12 week old pup!


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## Shalva

AkCrimson said:


> I got my refund . And I am looking into the 12 week old pup!


GREAT news .... good luck


----------



## Pointgold

Shalva said:


> I do think that is what it is... or at least part of it... but the animosity doesn't appear to be there... I agree with everyone about the whole creme,cream,white,platinum,silver etc etc... it drives me crazy... do you know how many eamils I got after Oprah did her darned dog show thing from people who wanted white goldens just like oprah....
> 
> BUT and I choose to educate or not depending on the email itself.. but honestly I expect more from this board and the people here ... I dont expect it from the general public but having been here a while now and having been put on the defensive at least a few times... I would think that the folks here would start to understand that NOT EVERY breeder is not reputable... but sometimes the comments just drive me crazy....
> 
> my dogs are golden retrievers who are english style and yes they are lighter in color than the average golden and a couple of them could probably be called cream... they are registered as light gold.... in the same way that red is registered most certainly as dark gold....


 
For me it is NOT about the color at all. It's about the fraudulent marketing. Period. And right now, because the "fad" is "English _________" (here you add platinum, cream, creme, white, etc etc) that is what is generally discussed. I also (though to a lesser degree simply because there are less folks clamoring for them...) despise the marketing of "American Reds", "American Ruby Goldens", etc. and have educated people looking for puppies in the same way that I do if they ask about the others.

And of _course _there are reputable breeder of English style dogs, but they are NOT marketing their puppies and pricing them based on color, while overlooking EVERYTHING else that is import when producing a litter. 
And I have never said anything but, and I feel that every thread on the topic has been clear about that, as well. Maybe you don't see that because of your frustration, and I do understand that frustration.


----------



## Pointgold

AkCrimson said:


> I got my refund . And I am looking into the 12 week old pup!


Excellent. Did the woman confirm that she doesn't do the clearances as advertised?


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## Jersey's Mom

AkCrimson said:


> I got my refund . And I am looking into the 12 week old pup!


[edited: I removed my original statement because I realized I had confused which pup the OP was referring to. I don't know enough about the pup he/she meant to make that statement, though it looks like others are researching the situation to determine whether clearances are truly in place. I stand by the rest of the post though... no need to rush into anything]

Take a moment, take a nice deep breath... realize you dodged a bullet and may not be so lucky next time. Good luck in what I hope will be your continued search for the right pup.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


----------



## Sally's Mom

I have to say that my American Standard goldens (just joking about terminology there) have come in all colors from the same litter. I have had very light goldens born with dark goldens...A long time ago, I decided I could care less about color, I just want the dog to have some color!!


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## Shalva

Sally's Mom said:


> I have to say that my American Standard goldens (just joking about terminology there) have come in all colors from the same litter. I have had very light goldens born with dark goldens...A long time ago, I decided I could care less about color, I just want the dog to have some color!!


i prefer color... funny tonight I was just looking at connie and noticing that she was getting some color... she was pretty pale and that is definitely not my preference. In any litter I have some that are cream and some that have color probably only once did I get a medium gold and he went to a friend so I would have access to him. I choose which pups I am going to keep based on structure and attitude definitely not color...

Pointgold yes it is frustrating and while some will say things about finding a reputable breeder of english type... the reality is that there is more condemnation and I agree with you... I hate the scumbag breeders who are marketing white and etc as it makes my life much more difficult... and honestly you should see the scowls my dogs get at a show even when they are just in obedience... I have never seen so many people give puppies dirty looks I mean honestly who makes ugly faces at a puppy.... but I have to tell ya I have gotten 4 private messages just in the past two days from people who also feel that there is a real negative undertone regarding our dogs... so it isn't just me ... and whther that is intended or not... I am not the only one feeling it.


----------



## Megora

> So how is this different than people who want red... shoot how many times do we see people who are clammering for redheads.... they want a dark color... shoot it is exactly the same thing... it is preference... *yet I don't see the same animosity toward those that come in wanting red...* yet someone who wants "english style" or a light colored dog we pounce on ....


It's probably because I've only seen a couple threads with people who expressly wanted a red golden just because of the color. And people were very quick to jump in and warn those people that the well-bred reds can be a handful. 

Other threads about redheads usually come from people who owned a redhead in the past and wanted to find a good breeder. And since there are respectable and established breeders who have darker colored goldens, it's a matter of pointing the way. 

Um. As the owner of two redheads, I can definitely say that we ran into a lot of color snobbing from show people and average people who preferred lighter goldens.


----------



## Pointgold

Pawsnfur said:


> I don't know if you are interested, but I have one puppy available now. He is 12 weeks old. His father is Gemini's X Statis. Rockledge Golden Retrievers,* Orange Park,* Florida. Dylan is his call name. Here is his mothers pedigree. Pedigree: Liebchen's Olympian Gold Inspiration. He is a medium gold color. His mother and grandmother are graduated service dogs. If you are looking for a well coated, gorgeous dog, he will be beautiful. I was asking $1200 but have reduced him to $900 due to his age. He is vaccinated, dewormed, and microchipped. Both parents are OFA certified with hips, knees, elbows, eyes and heart done. I live in Jacksonville, FL


Dara has only hips (fair) and elbows in the OFA database.
Dylan is not in the CERF database, either.


----------



## Shalva

Megora said:


> Other threads about redheads usually come from people who owned a redhead in the past and wanted to find a good breeder. And since there are respectable and established breeders who have darker colored goldens, it's a matter of pointing the way.


and there are respectable and established breeders of English type as well... and while you may not have meant the way this sounded but the and since there are ....implies that there are no respectable or established breeders and while I know that this may not be how you meant for it to sound it is the implication .... this is exactly the same as english type... there are respectable breeders and it should just be a matter of pointing the way to those breeders as well...absolutely no different.


----------



## Megora

Shalva said:


> and there are respectable and established breeders of English type as well...


Of course there are. And I believe that there are threads on GRF where somebody has asked for a English type breeder and has been pointed in the right direction.

I was only responding to your comment about people looking for reds, which is why I didn't say anything about the English goldens or people looking for them.


----------



## Pointgold

Seriously. There are countless instances where people come here looking for English style dogs are directed to reputable breeders.


----------



## Kmullen

Pointgold said:


> Dara has only hips (fair) and elbows in the OFA database.
> Dylan is not in the CERF database, either.


 
Dylan's last eye cerf was done in 09...so just make sure it is up to date. His OFFA link is:
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

He is my girl's uncle.

Also ask about Dara's eye cerf and cardiac clearance...she is only showing hips and elbows and also do not see anything from Dara's parents as far as eyes and cardiac go.


----------



## AkCrimson

Hmmm....maybe i should keep looking. I'm just getting impatient. I feel like I'm being blocked at every turn. 

I can only hope this is because I am being led to the perfect pup! I'm sure glad I found this site...You guys have my back!


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## DNL2448

Yes, that is a good plan (to keep looking). You will have years with your new pup, it's best to take a little time, to ensure you do your darnedest to get one that will be healthy and happy for those years. Don't get into the see a pup and it is soooo cute you gotta have it trap. First ensure ALL clearances are done, for at least 5 generations, then look at the pups.


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## AkCrimson

I'm looking at a pup from the Lea & Chunk litter at Topbrass Goldens in Illinois. Wish me luck!


----------



## tippykayak

Shalva said:


> So how is this different than people who want red... shoot how many times do we see people who are clammering for redheads.... they want a dark color... shoot it is exactly the same thing... it is preference... yet I don't see the same animosity toward those that come in wanting red... yet someone who wants "english style" or a light colored dog we pounce on ....


I'm sympathetic to your point of view here, but as somebody who has two dark gold dogs, I've joined in many threads of the "looking for a redhead" variety just to say that color should be the last preference.

That said, there are a lot more people talking "English Cream" out there on the web and a lot more newbies using the term than folks talking about seeking breeders who only produce red dogs.


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## K9-Design

Let me further explain, and demonstrate, my comment about "limiting yourself and for no good reason." 
The OP in this thread came here stating he was looking for an "English cream" breeder and wanted a lighter colored dog. 
Now after several breeder searches he's interested in a Topbrass breeding.
Does anyone else see the disconnect here?
"No good reason" because while they may initially say they prefer or want an "English" dog -- when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter AT ALL and what they really want is just a well bred dog!!! They will be happy regardless of the color, or type, or whatever sets apart an English golden from the rest of the crowd.
It is NOT a knock on English goldens or their breeders at ALL...it's not trying to deny people their American right to preference...it's being realistic and advising that the amount of hassle they will need to go through to locate and purchase a WELL BRED "English" golden is NOT proportional to their actual want and need of a dog of this type.
And I live in Florida and know the landscape, honestly I cannot think of one breeder in the State who is reputable and regularly breeds English type dogs. Pam Oxenburg may cross into European lines here and there, Sheree Melhuish has bred to a number of Canadian dogs, but neither have a set English "type" with their breeding program. And neither breed very often, or often enough to send someone to them. But there are LOTS of breeders in the state with good dogs to sell, that I think the OP would be very happy with.


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## Jige

It is all about the dog and making sure that it is coming from a good breeding. I wanted a dk red I like the way they look and there was one dk red in that litter but that pup didnt show the drive that my guy has. I couldnt be happier. He also has topbrass in his pedigree. 

to the op I hope everything works out for you.


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## AkCrimson

woah k-9 where the heck are you getting that i said i wanted an english golden??? i NEVER said that, could you please explain to me why you are making assumptions and putting words in my mouth???? apparently you haven't really been reading my posts at all! i really dont appreciate you giving me a bad image for no reason!!!


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## DNL2448

AkCrimson said:


> *I placed a deposit down on a litter of puppies* from Paradise Golden Retrievers in Tampa, FL. I've had correspondence with the breeders and she seems wonderful and knowledgable. But after readind the "Englsh Golden" thread about finding an *English Golden Breeder* in FL, I am getting VERY nervous! She has the sire listed as an *English Cream Golden*. I also did an OFA search for him and found nothing.
> 
> Paradise Golden Retrievers Here is the site. Will you look at it and tell me what you think??
> 
> I've emailed her just a moment ago and am awaiting a response. In the mean time, I need advice and help! Have I gone and picked myself a bad breeder? She is asking 1,400 per pup which I am willing to pay but not for anything but the best! I at least want a hips/elbow clearance, if not thyroid and heart, etc....
> 
> AND, if anyone knows of a breeder in South Florida you would recommend, please let me know! I am so anxious now...


Perhaps she read your first post. That gave me the impression you were looking for a English type as well. Wanting an English type is not a bad thing! Like has been said..it's a preference. It's the breeders who are just selling the color and not concerned with the health of the parents are who get the bad reputation.


----------



## K9-Design

AkCrimson said:


> woah k-9 where the heck are you getting that i said i wanted an english golden??? i NEVER said that, could you please explain to me why you are making assumptions and putting words in my mouth???? apparently you haven't really been reading my posts at all! i really dont appreciate you giving me a bad image for no reason!!!


Dude, I read your FIRST post in this thread, post #1:

"I placed a deposit down on a litter of puppies from Paradise Golden Retrievers in Tampa, FL. I've had correspondence with the breeders and she seems wonderful and knowledgable. But after readind the "*Englsh Golden*" thread about finding an *English Golden Breeder in FL*, I am getting VERY nervous! She has the sire listed as an *English Cream Golden*. I also did an OFA search for him and found nothing."

Call me crazy but sounds like you were initially interested in an English golden.
And WHY would that be giving you a BAD image??? THERE IS NOTHING WRONG with wanting an English golden.


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## Jige

Oh man I was just going to write the same thing. From the very first post I got the impression that the op wanted an English Golden


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## Kmullen

Sorry, but i got that you wanted an English type too. There is nothing bad about that! In fact i saw a beautiful one in the show ring today!! Great body. It is just a preference...no big deal. We are just trying to help u make an informed decision for whatever YOUR PREFERENCE is. Hope u find Ur perfect puppy!


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## AkCrimson

No, I never said thats what i wanted. I said that it what the breeder had him listed as. I'm sorry that is the impression I gave, but I never "said" anything of the sort (this was the part that irritated me). 

No, I didn't mean that wanting an English Golden is 'wrong'. I meant I didn't want anyone giving the impression that I'd fallen victim to the 'English Cream Golden' scam. 

Moving on! I've found a wonderful healthy litter to my preference and placed a deposit.


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## DNL2448

Sounds great! Make sure you post pictures when you get your new pup.


----------



## Deb_Bayne

Wow, reading this whole thread taught me a lot about Goldens and what they are and what they are not. 

Bayne's mother is a 'dark golden' very red in color as well as his aunts. His father is a very 'light golden' I guess would be a cream color. Bayne is so far turning out to be in between and looks like the perfect gold color with some beautiful white/cream markings as contrast. The beginnings of his feathers have the light and gold which almost sparkles in the sunlight. Can hardly wait to see what his adult coat is going to show us.


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## Jige

I know I learned alot too. I didnt realize that Goldens had the same problem with colour that Labs and American Pit Bull Terriers have. I guess that a lot of breeds have this type of thing going on...good to know.

To the OP I am so happy that you found what you re looking for. Did you getone from Topbrass? I cant wait to see pictures. When is the litter due?


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## melissacole123

*Paradise Golden Retrievers*

Check the website at www.paradisegoldenretrievers.com
The OFA numbers are listed and the stud dog has ALL
his health clearances.


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## Kmullen

[email protected] said:


> Check the website at www.paradisegoldenretrievers.com
> The OFA numbers are listed and the stud dog has ALL
> his health clearances.


Yes, the stud dog has all clearances....but why have clearances on the male and not have clearances on the bitches???? 

Also, why are they breeding? I very seriously doubt that their ONE STUD dog will NOT COMPLEMENT each one of the bitches! That is just crazy! 

But, Maybe I am reading that wrong!


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## Tahnee GR

It's a start but his CERF is outdated and due to be redone. It may have been redone but not sent in, definitely something to ask about. The cardiac clearance was done by a practitioner, not a cardiologist-serious breeders want that clearance from a specialist, not a generalist. Too many stories of practitioners who have missed murmurs because they are not trained as specialists.

I also noticed that neither of his parents appear to have any clearances. A stud dog should have several generations of clearances behind him. That is part of the information a bitch owner or puppy purchaser needs to have in order to make informed decisions.

There is so much more to good breeding than having a male dog and several bitches and getting clearances on them.


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

AkCrimson;1501399} said:


> I just sent off an email to the breeder (Melisa Coleman is her name), explaining that my first stipulation for a pup was that he had his clearances. She never claimed the parents had them, I saw where one dog did and I assumed they all did. So that was my fault. She's been pretty helpful so far, let's hope she's reasonable.


So, looking at the email address [email protected], it appears Melissa Coleman has replied to this thread tonight? Welcome to the forum with your first post, if so.

I am a bit confused by your website. Just how many "Tebow's" are listed as sires, their ages, k9data links, etc. are not included on your website? I see a listing for a stud on your website named Meadowlark's Sterk Hart Tebow who was born 10/28/09 but on OFA he is listed as Paradise's Sterk Hart Tebow. You claim litters out of a Tebow on your puppy page and if it is him that was used at stud, he was before the age of 2 based on the dates given for the whelping of the litters.

The other two males are not on OFA or K9data. Paradise Golden's Sir Heisman Tebow, you mention he was born on Valentine's Day and sired a litter one year later on Valentine's Day. And the other stud, Paradise Golden's Scotty, I cant find him listed on OFA but you claim he has sired over 250 puppies! Where are both of their clearances?

I found dates of births on a few bitches from K9data but not all are listed. Most were born in 2007 and 2008. None of the bitches are on OFA unless they are listed differently than what you have them listed on your website. So they would also be eligible for clearances but it appears they have none.

You state that you are a GRCA member. You also mention 'our breeding dogs (ages 2 and over) have OFA clearances on their hips." What about elbows. eyes. and hearts? The COE requires all 4 clearances if you are a member of the GRCA.

Perhaps you could update your website to include K9data links with pedigrees, birth dates, OFA clearances so that the general public and those of us looking at your website wouldn't question your upcoming litters and clearances on your dogs. 

Taking this opportunity to try and educate is what being a member of the GRCA is all about.


----------



## ragtym

Paradise's Sterk Hart Tebow (10/24/2009) - SR62228002 - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals - 1st litter sired at 15 months (according to website)

Scotty Judd (Paradise Golden's Scotty on the website) 05/07/2002 - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Sir Heisman Tebow Clark (Paradise Golden's Sir Heisman Tebow on the website) 02/14/2008 SR48120708 - no verifiable hip/elbow/heart/eye clearances - 1st litter sired at 11 months old (according to website) - listed as


> 90% English Creme Golden


 - a quick look at his pedigree shows 100% All American lineage.

Paradise's Talithia (Paradise's Talitha on the website)* - *SR61715505 - 03/21/2010 - no verifiable hip/elbow/heart/eye clearances - had first litter at 11 months (bred at 9 months) according to website.

Amazing Grace Coleman (Paradises Amazing Grace on the website) - 09/09/2008 - no verifiable hip/elbow/heart/eye clearances

Paradise's Sunny Morning - SR49127702 - 4/25/2008 - no verifiable hip/elbow/heart/eye clearances - first litter at 21 months - 2010 litter listing

Paradise's Rosie - no dog registered with AKC by that name

Paradise's Jasmine SR46125401- 11/01/2007 - no verifiable hip/elbow/heart/eye clearances - Sire: Shag Lee Shows - OFA Record - OFA Mild - rating given 6 months BEFORE she was born.

Paradise's Shalimar The Second (Paradise's Shalimar II on the website) - 04/25/2008 -no verifiable hip/elbow/heart/eye clearances


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## Sally's Mom

Ragtym, you do your homework and keep things honest!!


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## oakleysmommy

Before i knew any better i was about to put a deposit on a puppy from Paradise. i quickly decided not too. Too many litters going on there during any given period of time and she said she would show me the clearances when i went to visit...didnt sound good to me..


----------



## golden_eclipse

oakleysmommy said:


> Before i knew any better i was about to put a deposit on a puppy from Paradise. i quickly decided not too. Too many litters going on there during any given period of time and she said she would show me the clearances when i went to visit...didnt sound good to me..



Showing the clearances once you get there is not necessary a bad thing, BUT PLEASE make sure you know what to look for......the sticky on here about what they look like is the first step...

When you get to a breeder to verify or if they send you scanned copies look for; registered names matching, the dates in which they were completed, verify the PI matches, make sure they are "final" which means the Hips and Elbows where done after 24 months, and the heart clearance was done by a cardiologist (it will say on the certificate or application form under the signature), and the eyes done within a year, the date is located next to the doctors signature on the CERF form or on the CERF certificate. ) No matter how much you want to see cute puppies if you have to visit the breeder to see clearances (they weren't sent in to be put on the OFA website or scanned in) force your self to spend at least 10 minutes carefully looking over all of the clearance information bring a check list and print out "what they look like"....hopefully they will have a pedigree that you can look at and proof of clearances from ancestors. If something looks off, just leave and be honest, I don't think you have the proper clearances required by the GRCA. Never see the puppies if you are unsure of the health clearances. 

And the first thing you should ask to see is the AKC registration for both parents and verify for yourself that both parents are at least 2 years old.


----------



## K9-Design

Doesn't GRCA have a task force to make sure claims of GRCA membership are true?


----------



## AmbikaGR

K9-Design said:


> Doesn't GRCA have a task force to make sure claims of GRCA membership are true?



I believe Ron Beck ([email protected] <[email protected]>) and Dick Caldwell ([email protected] <[email protected]>) would be the ones to contact about that. They are the "internet watchdogs" for the GRCA.


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## Jige

Did anyone else notice that Paradise's Sterk Hart Tebow is a stud but on k9 data is listed as a female?


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

Leslie Albin is an admin for K9data and she made the entry so it looks like an error on her part when she listed the dog as a female.


----------



## dogma

Just a word to the wise:

I would NEVER buy anything from Melissa Coleman aka Paradise Golden Retrievers. The original poster should consider herself very lucky not only to have gotten her deposit back but also to have avoided any dealings with this woman.

Anyone new reading this, spend the extra money, go to a reputable breeder with the proper certifications and papers. Stay away from Melissa Coleman.


----------



## kaiser's mom

should a stud dog have bite marks on his face? I was told this is part of the mating process. I that right?


----------



## kaiser's mom

would a puppies heart murmur come from poor breeding practices?


----------



## kaiser's mom

I am new to this and need some help and advise


----------



## Tahnee GR

kaiser's mom said:


> should a stud dog have bite marks on his face? I was told this is part of the mating process. I that right?


Not normal, no. I suppose it might happen but it is the stud dog owners responsibility to keep him safe. If a bitch tries to bite, the stud dog owner needs to determine why-temperament issue with the bitch? Don't breed her. Maiden bitch, perhaps experiencing some pain? A physical exam by a vet or experienced breeder may be called. Perhaps an AI is called for.

But no, the stud dog should absolutely NOT have bite marks on his face.


----------



## Tahnee GR

kaiser's mom said:


> would a puppies heart murmur come from poor breeding practices?


There are innocent puppy murmurs that will go away by around 4 months. Those are nothing to really worry about. However, Goldens do have an inherited heart condition called SAS, which can be very serious and even fatal. Breeding stock should always be screened for this, although because of the mode of inheritance, it can still pop up but it can be much worse if one or both parents exhibits this problem.

My vet is very good at detecting even mild puppy murmurs and says that regardless of the breed, she expects to find one puppy out of every litter with a puppy murmur. 

If the puppy is over 4 months, I would want it checked out by a veterinary cardiologist.


----------



## kaiser's mom

Could you tell me what kind of eye problems are common with goldens?


----------



## AmbikaGR

kaiser's mom said:


> Could you tell me what kind of eye problems are common with goldens?


Thankfully noe are common. A few of the issues with eyes in Goldens can be but not limited to

Juvenile and other types of cataracts
Retinal folds, retinal dysplasia, retinal detachment
prcd-PRA
GR PRA1
Pigmentary Uveitis


----------



## hvgoldens4

AmbikaGR said:


> Thankfully noe are common. A few of the issues with eyes in Goldens can be but not limited to
> 
> Juvenile and other types of cataracts
> Retinal folds, retinal dysplasia, retinal detachment
> prcd-PRA
> GR PRA1
> Pigmentary Uveitis


 
I would also add distichia and entropian to this list. Distichia usually do not cause the dog any problems and are extra eye lashes. Entropian needs to be surgically corrected and then the dog should be fine.

I agree that none of these issues are extremely common but they do pop up. Some things are listed as breeders option-meaning that they still clear CERF and others will make a dog not eligible for a CERF number.
Juvenile cataracts(triangles)-No CERF
Some other cataracts will CERF such as age related cataracts and these are rather common-they are listed as a punctate cataract.
prcd-PRA-no CERF
GRPRA1-no CERF
Pigmentary uveitis-no CERF
Retinal folds-will CERF but retinal dyslasia will not.


----------



## golden_eclipse

I have found and I think you will as well in researching eye clearances, it can be quite challenging to get detailed information of eye health history. There are a few reasons:

-reports in the past often were not sent into CERF
-Failed reports were not sent in, or if they were they were available to be seen on the database. (I think they can be now, but to this date I have never seen a failed eye report on an online database, so if you can, not many do it.)
-breeders either place a retired breeding dog, and eye exams stop, or if they continue they are rarely sent into cerf, and if they fail that information is again difficult to find. 
-Also until recent years, PU passed a CERF exam so researching for that particular disease is even more frustrating.

The best way is to contact breeders directly when researching pedigrees and you find holes or have questions, and ask around. Eye clearances to me are the most frustrating, because of these hurdles and the fact that eye problems can and often do manifest much later in life, often after the dog is already done their breeding life.


----------



## hvgoldens4

kdowningxc said:


> I have found and I think you will as well in researching eye clearances, it can be quite challenging to get detailed information of eye health history. There are a few reasons:
> 
> -reports in the past often were not sent into CERF
> -Failed reports were not sent in, or if they were they were available to be seen on the database. (I think they can be now, but to this date I have never seen a failed eye report on an online database, so if you can, not many do it.)
> -breeders either place a retired breeding dog, and eye exams stop, or if they continue they are rarely sent into cerf, and if they fail that information is again difficult to find.
> -Also until recent years, PU passed a CERF exam so researching for that particular disease is even more frustrating.
> 
> The best way is to contact breeders directly when researching pedigrees and you find holes or have questions, and ask around. Eye clearances to me are the most frustrating, because of these hurdles and the fact that eye problems can and often do manifest much later in life, often after the dog is already done their breeding life.


 
Years ago, reports were not sent into CERF and many of the old time breeders are just starting to do this with the change in the GRCA's COE.  The reason being was that when people bred to a dog, the bitch owner wanted to see the CERF bubble exam form and not just that the dog had a CERF number. CERF did not use to list breeder's options on the CERF certificate or on their website like they do now. Now, you will see a dog has a CERF number and then Breeder's Option: Distichia or Breeder's Option: Punctate Cataract. This is still not a perfect system because breeder's often still want to see the CERF bubble form, especially is there is a Punctate Cataract because there is also the comments box where the optho can note-old age cataracts-not hereditary or other such things. This is important information when making breeding decisions. Hopefully, one day we will have a better system where the optho's remarks can also be noted.

It is harder to find information on the girls after they are retired. I do not have kennels and I do place our girls after they are retired so they can have the one on one attention they deserve in their retirement. I offer to pay for exams for them, but if there isn't a clinic nearby, it is the rare pet person who is going to drive 3 plus hours one way to have an eye exam done. Also, in some places in the country, people have to drive 6-8 hours for an optho. So asking someone to do this, is asking for alot. There is no perfect system and we have to work with the information available. You can usually find CERF information until at least 6-7 years old and that is better than some where the dogs are dieing before they reach old age.

The boys usually have their eyes CERFed until they are in old age because they need to be kept up for them to stand at stud. But, even in their case, if a boy goes sterile, or is producing another issue of some kind, they will also sometimes be neutered and placed.

Most of time, if you contact the breeder's of the dogs, they do have the CERF information or other information that you are looking for.

CERF still only records normal results on the CERF database. However, you can send in abnormal results to the OFA and they will record them on the OFA database free of charge for those dogs. You will also find that many breeders, owners are putting PU or pigmentary uveitis or PRA affected in the honorifics portion of the K9data website.


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## Tara

dogma said:


> Just a word to the wise:
> 
> I would NEVER buy anything from Melissa Coleman aka Paradise Golden Retrievers. The original poster should consider herself very lucky not only to have gotten her deposit back but also to have avoided any dealings with this woman.
> 
> Anyone new reading this, spend the extra money, go to a reputable breeder with the proper certifications and papers. Stay away from Melissa Coleman.


Please explain or give a reason that this is such a unreputable person.


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## Nairb

Interesting conversation. As you can see from the picture below, my puppy has a lighter color coat. Rarely a day goes by when someone doesn't ask me if she's an "English Creme Golden," or "English Golden". My standard response is that some Goldens have light coats and some have dark coats. Looking through the pedigrees, some of the ancestors appear to have originated from Great Britain a few generations back, but I don't consider her an "English Golden."

Nothing annoys me more than someone asking me if she's an English Creme Golden. Well, other than the guy last week who thought she was a lab, and asked me "what she is a cross with." LOL


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## hvgoldens4

Tara said:


> Please explain or give a reason that this is such a unreputable person.


Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
****No hip and elbow clearances and heart is done by a practioner and her mother also doesn't have final clearances and was rated a mild as a prelim. This is not a dog who should be bred.

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
****There is no heart clearance and the mother only has a heart clearance. She does not have elbows, eyes or a heart clearance listed. There is nothing listed for her father.

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
****Hip and elbow clearance listed. Missing eye and heart clearance. Her mother only has an eye clearance listed(missing hips, elbows and heart) Father has a hip and elbow clearance.

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
****Has a hip and elbow clearance listed. She also has offspring that prelimed mild(dysplastic) on her hips.


Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
****Heart clearance is by a practioner. Has hip, elbow and eye clearance. There is no information on either parent listed on the OFA site. He has 2 siblings that have some clearances-1. has a heart and eye clearance. 2. has prelims on hip and elbows. 

Any heart clearances that are listed(many are missing) are done by a practioner, which is a regular vet. There are quite a few clearances that are missing. The GRCA COE suggests that hip, eye, heart and elbow clearances be done on all breeding stock. She says she is a member of the GRCA and to be a member of the GRCA, you are aware of this as there is statement that you sign with your renewal and with your original application that you will do these clearances. Just the fact that so many dogs are missing clearances, would be a huge red flag.


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## Goldengal9

Nairb said:


> Interesting conversation. As you can see from the picture below, my puppy has a lighter color coat. Rarely a day goes by when someone doesn't ask me if she's an "English Creme Golden," or "English Golden". My standard response is that some Goldens have light coats and some have dark coats. Looking through the pedigrees, some of the ancestors appear to have originated from Great Britain a few generations back, but I don't consider her an "English Golden."
> 
> Nothing annoys me more than someone asking me if she's an English Creme Golden. Well, other than the guy last week who thought she was a lab, and asked me "what she is a cross with." LOL
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


I think I have you beat on the lab reference ( although I have gotten that too). Some guy in the park about a week ago asked if zoey was a shepard?!?? What?!?!


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## Shalva

Nairb said:


> Interesting conversation. As you can see from the picture below, my puppy has a lighter color coat. Rarely a day goes by when someone doesn't ask me if she's an "English Creme Golden," or "English Golden". My standard response is that some Goldens have light coats and some have dark coats. Looking through the pedigrees, some of the ancestors appear to have originated from Great Britain a few generations back, but I don't consider her an "English Golden."
> 
> Nothing annoys me more than someone asking me if she's an English Creme Golden. Well, other than the guy last week who thought she was a lab, and asked me "what she is a cross with." LOL
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


People ask me all the time if they are English Creme golden retrievers... I just say No, Just Golden Retrievers.... 
thats it


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## Nairb

Shalva said:


> People ask me all the time if they are English Creme golden retrievers... I just say No, Just Golden Retrievers....
> thats it


Great answer. Just the other day, a Petco employee asked, "English Creme, or just blonde?" How do you answer a question like that without appearing annoyed? He went on to explain that he has a 4 month old "English Creme Golden....pure white." That's fine. It may be a nice dog, but he obviously feels like the color is something special.


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## Tara

I should have found these posts several months ago. I had no idea there was so much to learn before I purchased a dog. I have learned so much and I am learning the hard way. I did look at the forum but when you don't know anything it is difficult to know what you need to learn and ask. This tread is wonderful. Thank you so much.


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## Tara

I still have trouble finding my way around this site


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## Shalva

Tara said:


> I should have found these posts several months ago. I had no idea there was so much to learn before I purchased a dog. I have learned so much and I am learning the hard way. I did look at the forum but when you don't know anything it is difficult to know what you need to learn and ask. This tread is wonderful. Thank you so much.


there is alot to learn and you never will know it all.... there is always more to learn... so the next time you can know what to ask and make the best decisions that you can with the information that you have. I am glad you are getting something out of this...


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## Tara

hvgoldens4 said:


> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> ****No hip and elbow clearances and heart is done by a practioner and her mother also doesn't have final clearances and was rated a mild as a prelim. This is not a dog who should be bred.
> 
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> ****There is no heart clearance and the mother only has a heart clearance. She does not have elbows, eyes or a heart clearance listed. There is nothing listed for her father.
> 
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> ****Hip and elbow clearance listed. Missing eye and heart clearance. Her mother only has an eye clearance listed(missing hips, elbows and heart) Father has a hip and elbow clearance.
> 
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> ****Has a hip and elbow clearance listed. She also has offspring that prelimed mild(dysplastic) on her hips.
> 
> 
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> ****Heart clearance is by a practioner. Has hip, elbow and eye clearance. There is no information on either parent listed on the OFA site. He has 2 siblings that have some clearances-1. has a heart and eye clearance. 2. has prelims on hip and elbows.
> 
> Any heart clearances that are listed(many are missing) are done by a practioner, which is a regular vet. There are quite a few clearances that are missing. The GRCA COE suggests that hip, eye, heart and elbow clearances be done on all breeding stock. She says she is a member of the GRCA and to be a member of the GRCA, you are aware of this as there is statement that you sign with your renewal and with your original application that you will do these clearances. Just the fact that so many dogs are missing clearances, would be a huge red flag.


Thank you so much. I am beginning to understand. So am i correct in assuming that Missing clearances might very well mean that a dog has a problem in that particular area.? 
Missing clearances could and probably might mean that a breeder realizes that she is breeding dogs with problems but she doesn't care? This is hard for me to comprehend. Why would someone intentionally breed a dog that would pass on serious health problems?


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## hvgoldens4

Tara said:


> Thank you so much. I am beginning to understand. So am i correct in assuming that Missing clearances might very well mean that a dog has a problem in that particular area.?
> Missing clearances could and probably might mean that a breeder realizes that she is breeding dogs with problems but she doesn't care? This is hard for me to comprehend. Why would someone intentionally breed a dog that would pass on serious health problems?


Missing clearances can mean either that the clearances have been done and the dog hasn't passed or that the breeder simply doesn't care enough to do them. Either way, that isn't a breeder that you want to support.

It bothers me quite a bit, as a breeder to see someone with a website advertising GRCA membership and AKC membership(you cannot be a member of the AKC, it is not a club but a dog registry) touting the health of their dogs when they do not have the clearance information to back up this claim. Unless she has xray vision and many medical degrees that we are not aware of, she cannot claim the dogs are healthy without the clearances. The fact that all clearances were done on her stud dog(the heart clearance if iffy because it is from a practioner and not a cardiologist) tells us that she is more than aware that they should be done.

Unfortunately, there are more than a few less than desirable breeders who will breed dogs without clearances or who have failed clearances, yes, knowing that they could potentially pass these problems on to their offspring.

There is a huge learning curve for purchasing almost any purebred breed and golden retrievers are no exception. Because of their popularity and their reputation as good family dogs, there are many people who are just interested in cashing in on that and have no desire to do what is best for the breed or the dogs. 

If you are having lots of problems navigating this site, you can also find a lot of information about goldens and the issues facing them on the Golden Retriever Club of America's website at www.grca.org


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## tippykayak

Tara said:


> I should have found these posts several months ago. I had no idea there was so much to learn before I purchased a dog. I have learned so much and I am learning the hard way. I did look at the forum but when you don't know anything it is difficult to know what you need to learn and ask. This tread is wonderful. Thank you so much.


I think this page is a terrific place to start. It's the Golden Retriever Club of America's page on how to find a reputable breeder.

There's an infinite amount to learn about breeding, but as a potential pet owner, the basics are pretty straightforward: you want to see the big four clearances (hips, elbows, hearts, and eyes) on all breeding dogs, and you want a breeder who competes in at least one dog sport (e.g., conformation, obedience, agility, field, etc.). From there, it gets a little more complex, but those two steps will knock out about 95% of the truly bad breeders and millers.

We can help you with the harder parts if you can figure out how to post threads with your questions and with breeders and litters you're interested in. It's possible to check a lot of the clearance information online, so we can help you make sure that you're working with a breeder who's very careful about clearances.


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## dogma

Tara said:


> Thank you so much. I am beginning to understand. So am i correct in assuming that Missing clearances might very well mean that a dog has a problem in that particular area.?
> Missing clearances could and probably might mean that a breeder realizes that she is breeding dogs with problems but she doesn't care? This is hard for me to comprehend. Why would someone intentionally breed a dog that would pass on serious health problems?


When I checked with the GRCA, she was not a member even though she was advertising that she was, they also did not find a prior membership for her. They were suppose to contact her about advertising that she is a member when she is not. 

She also uses many aliases. I think all the missing clearances says all that needs to be said.


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## CleosMom

tippykayak said:


> I think this page is a terrific place to start. It's the Golden Retriever Club of America's page on how to find a reputable breeder.
> 
> There's an infinite amount to learn about breeding, but as a potential pet owner, the basics are pretty straightforward: you want to see the big four clearances (hips, elbows, hearts, and eyes) on all breeding dogs, and you want a breeder who competes in at least one dog sport (e.g., conformation, obedience, agility, field, etc.). From there, it gets a little more complex, but those two steps will knock out about 95% of the truly bad breeders and millers.
> 
> We can help you with the harder parts if you can figure out how to post threads with your questions and with breeders and litters you're interested in. It's possible to check a lot of the clearance information online, so we can help you make sure that you're working with a breeder who's very careful about clearances.


Fist time posting, long time lurker. And my head is spinning. Don't know if I should start a new thread or just see if you will see my post here. We are thinking of buying a pup from www.royalgoldens.com. I thought I did my background. Should I be worried or relieved that there is a 3 year guarantee? Haven't sent a deposit or contacted the breeder yet. 

We had a yellow lab who we lost last year. It's taken me a long time to grieve. I'm ready now. How we got him? I never wanted a dog. My hubby and I went to the high school football fundraiser where they served free margaritas and the next thing you know, we were in a bidding war for a yellow lab ($2500). We had no idea what his heritage was. A gal handed me his papers, but by the time he was in my arms..too late, I could have cared less as he was nestled into my neck. But he did have good papers. He was the best thing that happened to me. Thankfully he was lovely and so healthy. So this new way to puppy purchase is new to me. 

I appreciate any opinions you all can give me. I spend most of my time over on the puppy picture or video threads so still finding my way around here and found this post. Thank you!

ETA: I did try to search that website here, only found sites for Royal dog food. Also, tippykayak, thank you! That website is a great place to start as well as the stickys above! So far, so good....I still need your expert opinions


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## rabidyankee

*You Are Right Next Door to the Best Breeder in the Land.*

Karen Brady, of Brandon, FL, has produced 53+ CH and has won over 170 titles with her Goldens; they are drop-dead gorgeous, smart as whips, healthy, and she is one of the most dedicated and loving breeders we have met. She lives right next door to you! Usually, the English Creme logo is just a ploy and many of those dogs have less clearances than a sparrow; I no nothing about the breeder you pick, but all clearances should be in place for hips, eyes, heart, and elbow. In the realm of top quality GR's, $1400 is not a really high price for a dog from a superior breeder, but it is a very high price if one is purchasing them from unscrupulous breeders. Our GR is almost dead white, with some darker golden accents, but this English Creme thing scares me. We saw it with a breeder in NJ whose dogs had no competition whatsoever, questionable or missing clearances, and hordes of un-purchased 1 and 2 year olds; The English Creme theme was hyped and the breeder had "an eye for perfection"--holy ****, so does Hugh Heffner!!!!! Make every effort to get you down payment back and consider legal action if breeder refuses. Or eat the deposit, do your homework, and chalk it up to experience.


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## AmbikaGR

CleosMom said:


> Fist time posting, long time lurker. And my head is spinning. Don't know if I should start a new thread or just see if you will see my post here. We are thinking of buying a pup from www.royalgoldens.com. I thought I did my background. Should I be worried or relieved that there is a 3 year guarantee? Haven't sent a deposit or contacted the breeder yet.
> 
> We had a yellow lab who we lost last year. It's taken me a long time to grieve. I'm ready now. How we got him? I never wanted a dog. My hubby and I went to the high school football fundraiser where they served free margaritas and the next thing you know, we were in a bidding war for a yellow lab ($2500). We had no idea what his heritage was. A gal handed me his papers, but by the time he was in my arms..too late, I could have cared less as he was nestled into my neck. But he did have good papers. He was the best thing that happened to me. Thankfully he was lovely and so healthy. So this new way to puppy purchase is new to me.
> 
> I appreciate any opinions you all can give me. I spend most of my time over on the puppy picture or video threads so still finding my way around here and found this post. Thank you!
> 
> ETA: I did try to search that website here, only found sites for Royal dog food. Also, tippykayak, thank you! That website is a great place to start as well as the stickys above! So far, so good....I still need your expert opinions


 
Hi and welcome to GRF :wavey:

Looking at Royal's website does not give me any red flags other than Brandon's eye clearance appears to be expired - they should be done every year. (Assuming you are looking at the Brandon/Lily litter) They may have been done but not sent in so you will need to check with the breeder. The three year guarantee is not real clear. Are you expected to return your 3 year old pup in order for it to be honored? If so it is not in my opinion worth anything. Afte a couple days you will likely not be able to return the pup due to bonding never mind 2-3 years. But all in all the breeder appears to be okay, IMHO.


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## tippykayak

CleosMom said:


> Fist time posting, long time lurker. And my head is spinning. Don't know if I should start a new thread or just see if you will see my post here. We are thinking of buying a pup from www.royalgoldens.com. I thought I did my background. Should I be worried or relieved that there is a 3 year guarantee? Haven't sent a deposit or contacted the breeder yet.
> 
> We had a yellow lab who we lost last year. It's taken me a long time to grieve. I'm ready now. How we got him? I never wanted a dog. My hubby and I went to the high school football fundraiser where they served free margaritas and the next thing you know, we were in a bidding war for a yellow lab ($2500). We had no idea what his heritage was. A gal handed me his papers, but by the time he was in my arms..too late, I could have cared less as he was nestled into my neck. But he did have good papers. He was the best thing that happened to me. Thankfully he was lovely and so healthy. So this new way to puppy purchase is new to me.
> 
> I appreciate any opinions you all can give me. I spend most of my time over on the puppy picture or video threads so still finding my way around here and found this post. Thank you!
> 
> ETA: I did try to search that website here, only found sites for Royal dog food. Also, tippykayak, thank you! That website is a great place to start as well as the stickys above! So far, so good....I still need your expert opinions


I agree pretty much with AmbikaGR's assessment here. They seem fine in terms of following the GRCA's Code of Ethics, which means they've used at least the basic tools available to help the puppies live long, healthy lives. I also see thyroid clearances, which aren't required but are a smart idea, so that's a good example of this breeder going above the minimum.

I would want to see that eye clearance on Brandon. It's very possible that they had the clearance done but didn't mail in the form. While it's important to mail the form in, the most important part is having the yearly eye exams in the first place. Since some eye diseases show up late in life, it's important to keep getting CERF clearances on breeding dogs through their whole lives.

As far as the guarantee, there are only two types that make sense to me: one is where you can return a puppy if you find something wrong in your initial vet visit within a few days of picking up the puppy. All good breeders do this. 

The other is a longer term guarantee where the breeder might refund part or all of your purchase price to help with medical expenses. A long term guarantee that requires you return the dog is worthless to me. If my dog shows hip dysplasia at 2, I'm not giving him back under any circumstances, but it would mean a lot if the breeder refunded half or more of the purchase price to help pay for the surgery. Not all great breeders do this, but some do, and I admire it as a meaningful guarantee of their faith in their breeding program.

A guarantee that requires you return a dog you've had for months or years to exchange for a different dog is utterly meaningless to me. Who would actually use that guarantee?

I'd also encourage you to start your own thread. I'll keep an eye out for it to respond and bump it up, and I think you'll get more responses if you create a thread about your own puppy search.

People may have some opinions on the particular matchup as well. One step is finding the right breeder, but another is making sure the litter is most likely to produce the kind of companion you're looking for. I don't know the dogs and lines Royal is using, but others might.


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## CleosMom

AmbikaGR said:


> Hi and welcome to GRF :wavey:
> 
> Looking at Royal's website does not give me any red flags other than Brandon's eye clearance appears to be expired - they should be done every year. (Assuming you are looking at the Brandon/Lily litter) They may have been done but not sent in so you will need to check with the breeder. The three year guarantee is not real clear. Are you expected to return your 3 year old pup in order for it to be honored? If so it is not in my opinion worth anything. Afte a couple days you will likely not be able to return the pup due to bonding never mind 2-3 years. But all in all the breeder appears to be okay, IMHO.


Thank you! I have been in contact with the breeder and the mom just got a clean bill of health and will get me the nfo on the sire's eye clearance. Yes, Brandon/Lily litter. 

Thank you so much!!!!!


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