# Let's talk Ichthyosis



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I'm not a breeder, but as a puppy buyer, this is something I care about. I have not had an affected dog before, but I don't want one either. And certainly not one that is severely affected.

Here are some links to previous threads on this subject. 

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...ssion/122142-opinions-ichthyosis-testing.html

Web's largest community of Golden Retriever enthusiasts. Visit our Golden Retriever discussion forum & gallery with thousands of photos & videos. - Search Results for Icthyosis


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Not a breeder, but I'm a puppy buyer... and basically I worry about a lot of other things before I worry about ichythyosis. 

Given a choice between

(A) a litter where the breeder carefully did the dna tests to ensure that they bred to a "clear" dog - who might have very weak elbow clearances or spotty stuff going on with other more important clearances (eyes and heart)..... 

(B) a litter where the clearance history is stellar going generations back.... but the parents were both carriers or untested....

I'm taking B.

Another way to look at it - btw.... given a choice between litters where the parents were:

A. Basically pet bred dogs whose owner/breeder went the extra step to get not just clearances but also the DNA tests done..... 

B. Titled dogs with a history of success in whatever venue I'm looking for + breeder with a track record of produced great dogs in X area or Y.... 

I'm picking B.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Since expression of ichthyosis is due to a recessive trait, it is so easy to breed away from it. Since the tests became available, all of my dogs that I own or that are from my breeding have been tested (all clear). Unfortunately, most of the stud dogs my girls have been bred to have had none of the genetic testing done. And probably in the scheme of eyes, elbows, hearts, and hips, probably not as life changing as an issue. I have seen ichthyosis cross field, conformation, and European lines...


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

If there were an amazing stud dog I really wanted to use, and he were an affected, I would use him on my clear bitch- thereby creating a litter of carriers. 
I think a lot of people do not understand genetics and do not realize breeding two carriers will likely produce at least a few affected puppies, or that breeding a carrier to an affected will almost certainly produce more affecteds. I sat at Eukanuba next to a very big field person who was telling me her stud dog is clear and she won't cover a carrier or affected bitch because she doesn't want to 'make problems', and that is so inaccurate but tells me the understanding isn't there on the heritability. 
If the affected dogs in the deliberate breedings are not badly affected, the breeders may think that's as bad as it gets...which is of course not true either. I crate trained an affected pup for friends-0h my, take me out and shoot me if she were mine! I was cleaning up about 1/4 cup of flakes twice a day from the crate and surrounding. And I have cloth seats in my car- which I have vacuumed at least 5 times since she rode in it, and I can still see flakes there. I would NEVER create an affected deliberately.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

What she said.
My boy is a carrier. He is bred only to bitches who are clear. I've had an affected dog and would rather not have another.
It's so easy to breed around it.




Sally's Mom said:


> Since expression of ichthyosis is due to a recessive trait, it is so easy to breed away from it. Since the tests became available, all of my dogs that I own or that are from my breeding have been tested (all clear). Unfortunately, most of the stud dogs my girls have been bred to have had none of the genetic testing done. And probably in the scheme of eyes, elbows, hearts, and hips, probably not as life changing as an issue. I have seen ichthyosis cross field, conformation, and European lines...


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I have 3 dogs and 1 bitch. My youngest has not been tested yet (will wait until hips, elbows & heart all clear), but my 3 breedable dogs are all CLEAR.

Judging by this small sampling size and the dogs/girls I would consider breeding to there is, in my mind, little reason to breed to an affected dog. The affected dog would need some truly outstanding traits to be considered by me to be bred to one of my clears. 

I also know that people looking to purchase potential breeding stock look very closely at pairing of clear to carrier (or carrier to carrier) and carefully consider the risks of their choice being a carrier .. sometimes to the point of demanding DNA testing being done on the litter (this is rather traumatic seeming to the young puppies, I have seen it and don't care to ever see this happen to very young puppies again since what I witnessed was a jugular vein blood draws), so something else to be considered if the breeder wants that particular buyer to have a puppy.

I know of at least 2 affected dogs who are asymtomatic but have heard stories of badly affected dogs and why risk it?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I also agree there is a gap in understanding on the heredity of this. 

I have a Clear bitch and I would breed her to an carrier/affected in a second, if he is the right dog for her. Though there are a lot of nice stud dogs out there, there are really not that many for me once I apply all my criteria. Like eliminating lines that I know have issues I do not want, a dog that does not share my girls weaknesses, one that has most of strengths need to correct my girl, strong hip, elbow, heart and eye histories/production, etc. Once I do that I can take a group of a hundreds down to a handful. I will not eliminate an affected boy for a clear girl because the outcome will not be an affected, but a carrier. It simply means in the next generation or so, I will have to breed carefully to a clear. But not every breeder feels the same way, I don't have a problem with that as long as it is not based in ignorance of the hereditary but it does scare me. 

I have seen too many breeders make "Ich clear" the whole or major goal of their breeding program. They are sacrificing quality and what I think is more important, structure. I have seen pairings that are designed to set weak traits like straight/loaded shoulders, weak patterns, soft toplines, etc., but were/are touted as amazing breedings because both parents are Ich Clear.:doh:

This is a disease that can be successfully eliminate from our gene pool with careful selection of breeding dogs. However, we all need to be cautious that we don't apply too much pressure on our already narrowed gene pool. It is a possibility that as people refuse to use carriers and affected dogs carefully that we might loose something very important. I always think, what if one of these dogs is carrying the last normal copy of a gene for something larger like, PU or SAS? For a frightening number of breeders, baby and bath water are both getting tossed out. 

I do not really want an affected but, I may own one someday as I can see myself buying a puppy from a breeder who does not test, or one that does breed carrier to untested or carrier to carrier. Though that is not a breeding I would feel comfortable doing myself, I would buy from it for the right dog. But of course I know what I am getting into and disclosure of the Ich status would be important to me. I do not think it is fair or ethical to breed untested or Carrier/affected combos without telling your pet homes about it an encouraging them to research before taking a possibly affected dog home. Interestingly to me there is much more stigma associated with a carrier or affected than an untested dog. A lot of breeders are not testing but you do not hear much about that.

As more and more DNA tests coming to market, eventually there will be few if any dogs clear of everything. We are likely on the brink of this now, and at that point do we all just stop breeding Goldens? Do we breed an affected dog for ICH or will there be another diseases we are going to be more willing to produce? 

We are talking about this at fixed point in time and I always wonder how it will change in the future.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Robin is 100% correct that MANY long time breeders STILL do not understand how this simple recessive trait is inherited! It is amazing to me that they still cannot wrap their brains around this. Because of this people either want to throw out any carrier or affected, OR they throw their hands up in the air and ignore the whole thing. It is SO EASY to predict what you can produce with ichthyosis. 
I have seen a severely affected ichthyosis dog. It was DISGUSTING. Anyone contemplating producing an affected dog needs to be aware of the possibility of producing a dog like this. 
You can breed clears. You can breed carriers. You can breed affecteds. Just educate yourself and understand the probabilities.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

My dogs have been tested , mainly thanks to the positive uses of peer pressure. I have never owned or seen an affected dog, so it did not really register as a huge problem to me in an anecdotal way. On the other hand, it was a relief to test my dogs and find them clear. I would steer away from a carrier to carrier or affected to carrier or affected to affected as a puppy buyer for sure. I had mine Optigen tested by my vet who checked microchips, sent it in, and went the extra mile for making it as VPI as possible, and I plan to do my puppy at the local club's health clinic. I do have some concerns about the honor system of doing it at home in the kitchen with swabs with no verification of microchip, especially when 6-12 dogs get done at once. I think the system needs tightening as far as verifying the dog submitted IS the actual dog like the other clearances try to ascertain.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> My dogs have been tested , mainly thanks to the positive uses of peer pressure. I have never owned or seen an affected dog, so it did not really register as a huge problem to me in an anecdotal way. On the other hand, it was a relief to test my dogs and find them clear. I would steer away from a carrier to carrier or affected to carrier or affected to affected as a puppy buyer for sure. I had mine Optigen tested by my vet who checked microchips, sent it in, and went the extra mile for making it as VPI as possible, and I plan to do my puppy at the local club's health clinic. I do have some concerns about the honor system of doing it at home in the kitchen with swabs with no verification of microchip, especially when 6-12 dogs get done at once. I think the system needs tightening as far as verifying the dog submitted IS the actual dog like the other clearances try to ascertain.


Very interesting about the "verification." When I had Sailor get her heart clearance, the scanner that the vet at the clinic used did not read the type of chip that Sailor has - so I feel it might bite me later on that her clearance has no verification of microchip on it. 

Yes, doing it in the kitchen with multiple dogs could also cause confusion.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I just noted a dog on k9 data who is affected which meant both parents were at least carriers. For the dam's next litter, a clear dog was chosen. However, on k9 data, the dam is listed as a carrier based on the affected offspring. My thinking is that affecteds can occasionally be phenotypically normal, correct? So it would be wrong to assume that a dog is only a carrier based on affected offspring? If a dog has produced affected offspring, it should be tested, no assumptions made...

I have certainly seen ich in practice. None to the extent that some of you have seen. The ones I have seen have responded well to fish oils. I can think back to a dog from some fifteen years ago that we diagnosed as hypothyroid, which she was, but thyroxine did not fix the flakes...


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Sweese said:


> I would like some input regarding Ichthyosis.
> 
> Disclosure: I have never had an affected Golden, but my current dog is a "Carrier". My dog is a field bred Golden and I run in those circles (hunting and hunt tests).
> 
> ...


Jay, Ichthy has likely been with the breed since the very beginning. It isn't something new. (The genetic test is relatively new.) The last time I looked, nearly 70 percent of tested Golden Retrievers were either Carrier or Affected. With that kind of percentage of the breed involved, it is going to take some time to breed Ichthy out. (You can't throw away 2/3 of the gene pool and still have a viable breed.) 

In the short term the goal is to avoid producing "Affected" puppies. This is easily accomplished by knowing the status of each parent of a litter. Over time, the percentage of the breed that is involved with the problem will decrease, and the focus can shift to eliminating the problem from the gene pool.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Dumb question - have the really severe cases turned up in specific areas of the country? Or is this generally everywhere. What I'm wondering is if there is an additional component as far as dogs have severe skin issues related to this condition. 

Maybe I'd feel differently about this condition if I'd actually seen or experienced any cases - but I've never met anyone whose dog had this! And I've been around dog training clubs and so on since I was 10-11.

Have I seen dogs with skin conditions? Yeah. But nothing that sounds like 1/4 cup flakes falling off a dog....


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> Dumb question - have the really severe cases turned up in specific areas of the country? Or is this generally everywhere. What I'm wondering is if there is an additional component as far as dogs have severe skin issues related to this condition.
> 
> Maybe I'd feel differently about this condition if I'd actually seen or experienced any cases - but I've never met anyone whose dog had this! And I've been around dog training clubs and so on since I was 10-11.
> 
> Have I seen dogs with skin conditions? Yeah. But nothing that sounds like 1/4 cup flakes falling off a dog....


That's because those dogs are the more extreme examples of the condition and fortunately not all that common. Most of the time affected cases look like they have excess dandruff in their coat. Most of the time they were diagnosed with allergies, and sent home with fish oil and/or medicated shampoo.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

I've posted before about Chance's Ich and I've also posted that it's a condition that I would never wish on any dog or owner. I hear a lot that there are other conditions that we deal with in our breed that are worse, (maybe breeders trying to validate why they don't test for it). IMO, I wish/believe that every dog in every breeding program should be tested for Ich. Would I take it over his elbow dysplasia? Well, duh, yeah. But when there is testing to avoid it, why should anyone ever have to? 

A 1/4 cup of flakes...I wish! The pictures I'm posting is after I had already brushed Chance thoroughly, which I do twice a day. These are the flakes left over. Not pretty. And they get all over everything...the carpet, my car, beds, everywhere. It's been a lot better as he got older, but it's still something we have to deal with constantly.

Only lets me post one picture per post. :uhoh:


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Probably 1/10 of the flakes brushed out at a time. And I'm sure I'm underestimating.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Thank you Kwhit, a picture is worth a thousand words.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I hear a lot that there are other conditions that we deal with in our breed that are worse, (maybe breeders trying to validate why they don't test for it). IMO, I wish/believe that every dog in every breeding program should be tested for Ich. Would I take it over his elbow dysplasia? Well, duh, yeah. But when there is testing to avoid it, why should anyone ever have to?


But the thing is that most golden retrievers do not have cases like you are experiencing. And (for example) - I brought up skin conditions and allergies (particularly stomach problems, but I also discussed hot spots and ichy) - with Bertie's breeder and was comfortable with what they knew about what they breed. And it's pretty much been the case with Bertie - this dog has zero skin problems, zero stomach problems, etc. 

When you have people breeding lines and dogs they know - they should really be able to eliminate some of the worst stuff just because they aren't breeding to dogs who are affected. It's simple minded, I know, but all that's without DNA tests.

The DNA tests - I see as being more important today because people are going out of their comfort zones so much in breeding to different lines while trying to get away from other stuff (cancer, etc). The European lines come up a lot - but I think it's because they are completely different and it's not always possible to know everything about the dogs behind the one you are breeding to. It might be easier for a foreign breeder to sweep stuff under the rug... And from what I can tell - a lot of the more extreme cases that people bring up involve dogs from litters like that. 

Those are the cases, where definitely I can see (as a puppy buyer) wanting a little more follow through done by the breeder. 

I guess anything more... I've never seen a dog with really bad dandruff as described by some people. A lot of the skin problems and allergies that people describe - it's dogs being very itchy and allergic to weird stuff (grass, for example). And then there's a lot of dogs out there with major hotspot problems.


**** Should add. If I were to breed my dog or thinking about it, I'd have the DNA tests done. That's not so much a big issue to me. But the above is my observation as a pet owner. I am concerned about people hyping one thing up as a "really big issue" and many of these same people are breeding underaged dogs who obviously do not have all their clearances.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Megora said:


> But the thing is that most golden retrievers do not have cases like you are experiencing.


Okay...not quite sure of your point/thinking. So are you saying that just because not many have this extreme a case, that testing breeding dogs is not necessary/warranted? Just because something is not as common as other conditions doesn't make it any less of a concern, especially when there is a simple test to eradicate it in future puppies.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

kwhit said:


> Okay...not quite sure of your point/thinking. So are you saying that just because not many have this extreme a case, that testing breeding dogs is not necessary/warranted? Just because something is not as common as other conditions doesn't make it any less of a concern, especially when there is a simple test to eradicate it in future puppies.


I think my thinking is simply I find it very difficult to get all hyped up about something which isn't that common. For the reasons I gave. As a pet owner.

When I go looking for a puppy - I am not going to rule out litters where the parents are untested. And I'm not viewing them as bad breeders. In my priorities as far as a puppy - it's very low. And a lot of that is based on the likelihood of a puppy from a litter I may be looking at being more likely to develop this issue (I get that other litters out there - it'd be a bigger concern).

I guess to me, it doesn't matter if a dog is clear for ichy and a lot of other stuff - but has hot spots. Something which as far as I know can't be tested for but you rely on the honesty of the breeder when you discuss stuff you are concerned about.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

kwhit said:


> A 1/4 cup of flakes...I wish! The pictures I'm posting is after I had already brushed Chance thoroughly, which I do twice a day. These are the flakes left over. Not pretty. And they get all over everything...the carpet, my car, beds, everywhere. It's been a lot better as he got older, but it's still something we have to deal with constantly.
> 
> Only lets me post one picture per post. :uhoh:


 I may have underestimated the 1/4 cup- because I seriously was pulling out my hair (I'm a clean freak) with wiping around the puppy's crate, and inside the crate, and it was just maddening. If she'd have been mine it would have been reason enough to place her for me... she could not ride in the car without leaving an astounding load of flakes- and gosh! She was a pup! Imagine how much she's probably making now!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> I had mine Optigen tested by my vet who checked microchips, sent it in, and went the extra mile for making it as VPI as possible, and I plan to do my puppy at the local club's health clinic. I do have some concerns about the honor system of doing it at home in the kitchen with swabs with no verification of microchip, especially when 6-12 dogs get done at once. I think the system needs tightening as far as verifying the dog submitted IS the actual dog like the other clearances try to ascertain.


I think that we need to maybe consider that when the test first came out (that's when I did my dogs also thankfully clear!) there was no VPI option. So mine are all tested without PI noted. Older tests from back then shouldn't be suspect for that reason.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> I just noted a dog on k9 data who is affected which meant both parents were at least carriers. For the dam's next litter, a clear dog was chosen. However, on k9 data, the dam is listed as a carrier based on the affected offspring. My thinking is that affecteds can occasionally be phenotypically normal, correct? So it would be wrong to assume that a dog is only a carrier based on affected offspring? If a dog has produced affected offspring, it should be tested, no assumptions made...
> 
> ...


I bred to frozen semen a clear bitch and got a carrier. I was glad to see the semen owner note on k9data 'carrier by offspring' because there isn't any way to test him anymore- he's dead now. 
What makes me crazy is the people whose answer to 'is he iCT clear?' is 
'he's never had any problems so I am not testing'..... that's just crazy imo.
I believe I have heard of phenotypical clears actually being genetically affected- I'd guess they were so mildly affected the fish oil or other supplements given as a part of their meals took care of it, or it was so mild no one ever noticed.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Personally, I think ichthyosis is more common than anyone realizes..I am pretty sure through the years that myself and my colleagues have called it dandruff or allergies or hypothyroidism. When I look at pedigrees on K9 data, I would not say it is more in one part of the country or another. I saw a pup relatively recently from a " breeder" who does no clearances. He clearly has it. Owners told me that one of the parents is treated daily with fish oil. This pup does well with fish oil and bathing...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

When I do the Optigen testing for our club's clinic, we do verify the permanent ID. I have to admit I have been remiss in sending my clearances to OFA, but have always given puppy buyers copies of the clearances.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Durn- I posted but I guess it got lost... 
I have heard of phenotypically clear dogs being affected genotypically. It may be that they supplement w fish oil or something else that's helping w the flakes and it is so mild there are no sores to notice.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Prism Goldens said:


> Durn- I posted but I guess it got lost...
> I have heard of phenotypically clear dogs being affected genotypically. It may be that they supplement w fish oil or something else that's helping w the flakes and it is so mild there are no sores to notice.


Right, that is why I am saying that if an untested dog produces it, carrier status should not be assumed. If the dog is alive, test it!


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> Personally, I think ichthyosis is more common than anyone realizes..


I agree with this. I personally have seen it in quite a few of my customers dogs. Not all had been tested, but having lived with it for the last 11 years, I generally know what to look for. Not saying that all were cases of Ich, but a very good portion of them probably were. I do know that at least 4 tested positive.

So yeah, just because someone hasn't experienced it in their own encounters certainly doesn't mean that it's not common enough and that we shouldn't get "all hyped up" about it. That, IMO, is a very narrow way of thinking...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Kwhit, you and I are on opposite coasts!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

We do have one club member whose dog has it, but is under control. I could not see anything on the dog. The owner did tell me, she went through a few vets and I think a dermatologist vet before he was diagnosed. I forget exactly how it is controlled, but I believe it was by diet, weekly bathing and fish oils.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> So yeah, just because someone hasn't experienced it in their own encounters certainly doesn't mean that it's not common enough and that we shouldn't get "all hyped up" about it. That, IMO, is a very narrow way of thinking


Might be narrow, Karen... but it is an honest perspective. As a pet owner. I'm not ever going to be somebody who reads up on popular opinions before forming my own. I'm going to be honest about what's going through my head on things like this. 

As I said, this comes from life long ownership of goldens - and active participation at dog training clubs and showing. I've been around a lot of dogs. I've seen stuff that concerns me and gets clocked in my "I want to avoid" list. Ichy - if I saw reason to be alarmed, I definitely would add that to my list.

But I get where you are coming from and definitely understand why this would be a more heightened issue.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Personally, I think ichthyosis is more common than anyone realizes..I am pretty sure through the years that myself and my colleagues have called it dandruff or allergies or hypothyroidism.


Exactly! 

Ichthy has been around forever and it is widespread. We just called it something else and treated the symptoms as best we could when they showed up. There were no genetic tests and all a breeder could do was choose not to breed out of the more extreme cases that showed up along the way. 

Many people have owned dogs with Ichthy and just didn't know it at the time.


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## Sweese (Sep 25, 2013)

Prism Goldens said:


> If there were an amazing stud dog I really wanted to use, and he were an affected, I would use him on my clear bitch- thereby creating a litter of carriers.
> I think a lot of people do not understand genetics and do not realize breeding two carriers will likely produce at least a few affected puppies, or that breeding a carrier to an affected will almost certainly produce more affecteds. I sat at Eukanuba next to a very big field person who was telling me her stud dog is clear and she won't cover a carrier or affected bitch because she doesn't want to 'make problems', and that is so inaccurate but tells me the understanding isn't there on the heritability.
> If the affected dogs in the deliberate breedings are not badly affected, the breeders may think that's as bad as it gets...which is of course not true either. I crate trained an affected pup for friends-0h my, take me out and shoot me if she were mine! I was cleaning up about 1/4 cup of flakes twice a day from the crate and surrounding. And I have cloth seats in my car- which I have vacuumed at least 5 times since she rode in it, and I can still see flakes there. I would NEVER create an affected deliberately.


Breeding a carrier to a clear should produce 1/2 clears and 1/2 carriers, but no affected. So IMO, that is ok.

I have never seen Ichy. Oh my, it sounds bad. Thanks for your input.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

One of the problems with it is that you can't predict whether the affected will be so mild you aren't even aware of it to a walking snowstorm.
Incidentally, there is some anecdotal evidence, certainly not scientific proof, that dogs with Ichthy are more likely to have gastrointestinal issues from food intolerance on up to IBD. This would make sense since it appears to be a disease of faulty lipid metabolism.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Sweese said:


> Breeding a carrier to a clear should produce 1/2 clears and 1/2 carriers, but no affected. So IMO, that is ok.
> 
> I have never seen Ichy. Oh my, it sounds bad. Thanks for your input.


 Right- it works on a punnett square in theory, in reality you could get unequal numbers. 
I said an affected to a clear which would make all carriers. That one doesn't get any splits, because an affected has two copies of the allele that is not normal and a clear has two copies of normal alleles ( I know you know this but everyone may not understand). Since each contributes an allele to the offspring, all the puppies in an affected X clear would be carriers.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Incidentally, there is some anecdotal evidence, certainly not scientific proof, that dogs with Ichthy are more likely to have gastrointestinal issues from food intolerance on up to IBD. This would make sense since it appears to be a disease of faulty lipid metabolism.


Chance has gastro issues. I have to be very, very careful what I feed him. When he has one of his flare-ups, it will last exactly three days. I can tell almost to the hour, when it will end. Same symptoms every single time. Fatigue, horrible diarrhea with both blood and mucus, going out every hour on the hour. Neither one of us gets any sleep during these episodes. 

Never thought it could have anything to do with his Ich. Hmmmm...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

My Toby, who had Ichthy, also had IBD.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> Jay, Ichthy has likely been with the breed since the very beginning. It isn't something new. (The genetic test is relatively new.) The last time I looked, nearly 70 percent of tested Golden Retrievers were either Carrier or Affected. With that kind of percentage of the breed involved, it is going to take some time to breed Ichthy out. (You can't throw away 2/3 of the gene pool and still have a viable breed.)
> 
> In the short term the goal is to avoid producing "Affected" puppies. This is easily accomplished by knowing the status of each parent of a litter. *Over time, the percentage of the breed that is involved with the problem will decrease, and the focus can shift to eliminating the problem from the gene pool*.


 
I have to disagree with any push to eliminate it from the gene pool and produce only clear dogs. We have no idea what the gene for ICH is attached to, related to, or affected by. It could be that this gene is connected to great marking, trainability, or even for keeping dogs at the correct height. As Barb said, there is some connection with bowel disorders and affected dogs that was previously unknown. It was only thru testing and then tracking of these dogs with the disorder that it became apparent. The canine genotype is too vast for us to have an understanding of all the facets. 

We have seen in other breeds that are vigorously scrubbed of an undesireable quality they often lose a positive trait. When dalmations were bred to avoid the deafness that plague the breed they found that those dogs often lost the distinctive spots. The breed club decided they did not want to eliminate them so they simply breed around the genetic markers for deafness. IMO this is the better way to go as it preserves genetic diversity as well as producing sound dogs. 

Given the enormous number of goldens that are at least carriers of ICH, particularly in field lines, I would not be willing to risk losing their talent from our gene pool.


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## bethlehemgolden (Aug 2, 2014)

OptiGen Ichthyosis (ICT-A) in GR performed by Antagene


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Yup, I was going to breed my Clear girl to an Affected male. I think the pups would have been awesome, and put me in a great position to move forward breeding a blended pedigree. Unfortunately my girl has developed an intestinal issue that looks like it will preclude her being bred.

The resulting puppies would have been Carriers, not Affected.

This multi-titled boy wasn't checked until he was older, when his co-owner noticed a few flakes visible on the dark hardwood floor in the winter.


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## 192009 (Apr 4, 2018)

13 wk old pup, Lady, with suspected Ichthyosis. Breeder dragging their feet on DNA so we are doing it on our own while still pushing for the breeder to pay for the testing. We pd $1,000 for the puppy and got AKC papers with full breeding rights. Lady was the pick of the litter chosen by the breeder & I went with it that day because Lady chose me. We are truly meant for each other, as I have been to Mayo twice for severe skin problems! Anyway, we are TOTALLY in love with our Lil Lady and she is perfect in our eyes!! I am so disappointed that when we went to our vet when she was shocked at the “puppy dandruff” I pointed out. She stated it was not typical puppy dandruff and possibly Ichthyosis because the epidermis didn’t look like it was formed correctly. There are also areas of thickened/scarred skin on her little belly at only 10 weeks old. At that point she also had a skin bacterial infection, my vet stated it was the worst case she has ever seen. Our Lil Lady doesn’t seem to be bothered by this problem at this time but I am quite concerned for her future since her condition does seem quite severe as far as the scaling goes. She eats Iams large breed puppy food and I am willing to switch when she is old enough that it will be safe to do so for the rest of her body! I have read that I should give her increased omega 3, 6 & 9 and Vit E but to make sure to stay in balance! Is there a great supplement that will do this? Her vet gave her Essential 6 and I am not comfortable with all the essential oils that are in there! Some of those are shown to not be dog safe...so I made her a doTERRA blend of the oils that are dog safe and great for their skin, lymph & immune system to try first. Our vet looked into this and was TOTALLY on board & agreed 100% with my plan!! (I am using a blend of lavender, juniper berry, frankincense, lemongrass, sandalwood in fractionated coconut oil. I use it on her paw pads and on her belly for a belly rub each night. It is very diluted but we are getting the benefits and she certainly loves the belly rubs!! Our 8 yr old lab caught on what we were doing and now lines up for the oils and belly rub each night as well! It is very calming for them right before bed! We are using WEN for dogs as our chosen ‘shampoo’. It is really helping her skin & hair! (Her hair is soft & beautiful!) WEN Pets, Lemon Rosemary Vanilla Bean Cleansing Conditioner has essential oils, amino acids, vitamins, nutrients, peptides and no harsh chemicals! It leaves her smelling like a sweet little lemon cookie and as soft as any stuffed animal you ever dreamt of! Her flakes are still there when we brush her but we don’t see them as much on a daily basis now! Any advice you all can offer me is greatly appreciated!! Also, how to deal with the breeder... should the breeder refund a portion of the money if the puppy is DNA positive? I am uncertain of what I should expect at this point.... thank you!!


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I am going to make what I feel is a well founded assessment. Your breeder was not a particularly good one. Selling a puppy bitch for $1000 to anyone on full registration is a common issue with back yard breeders or comercial profit Kennels. If that is accurate, the parents of your puppy are very unlikely to have had any health certifications nor any competition evaluation. Puppies like this are high risk. Unless there was a guarantee in the contract or explicit disclosure that this puppy would be free of Ichthyosis, no I don’t think the breeder owes you anything and this becomes your life lesson.

First, I would make sure your vet is aware of “Golden Retriever” Ichthyosis. The breed has its own special version which is different and likely to be much less severe. Treating it appropriately will be helped by a DNA test. You don’t even need your vet for it as it is a cheek swab and it is pretty cheap. Check out Paw Prints Genetics. 

I have heard a good shampoo can help. I don’t know Wen other than it is a human brand. Most human brands are not especially well designed for dogs as it is more about the brand name. Perhaps someone can make a recommendation or ask your vet or a groomer.

I have not heard a lot of luck with topical treatments but have for increasing fish oil. 

Pyoderma can be common in puppies without Ichthyosis and that may not be a causal relationship. Most Ichthyosis tends to lesson as a puppy matures. Some dogs will still be symptomatic into adulthood or break out under stress.


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## goldenz1 (Feb 14, 2017)

Thanks Bethlehemgolden! I was just trying to get to the end of these posts to display this chart, too. You saved me the time. I am not a breeder, but as a performance golden owner, this is certainly one of the things I look for when selecting a breeder. Why in the world would one not use these tools before choosing their next breed pairings? Same goes for the CHIC database.


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## 192009 (Apr 4, 2018)

Thank you for your reply. I admit fully we adopted our pup after a very emotional time when I lost my father unexpectedly and my husband had nearly lost his life as well. We were ready to have a good thing in our lives to celebrate and uplift us and had been wanting to add a Golden for over a year and we got too emotional and let that over run my rational decision making! I will say, we love her and I believe she will be a fantastic pup. Her temperament is out of this world! She is being trained as a service dog for me and is exceeding all expectations to date! I have had had many Golden’s and she may be the smartest fastest learning pup I have ever seen! The breeder has just gone to the crapper...but after doing some investigation, it appears we have some protection from the UCC since they didn’t have us sign a contract of any kind stating the dog was as is and that there were no guarantees on their health. . I made it clear, in writing while communicating back & forth with the breeder that one of my main purposes (other than simply loving the pup in ridiculous amounts) is for her to be take over as my service dog (my current service dog is 8 and I am hoping to use both dogs and alternate between the two in different circumstances) Lady will also be working with me doing mission work through our church group in nursing homes & hospitals. It was also made very clear that I was going to use Lady to begin breeding as long as Lady ended up being a dog that I thought was worthy of being bred. IF she does have Ichthyosis and has severe breakouts,with a lot of dander & hot spots, and constantly fighting skin infections it might end up being impossible for me to use her to work as a service or therapy dog. We could choose to still breed her with a clear dog and fully disclose to the puppy owners that if they chose to breeed they will need to breed with Ichthyosis clear dogs and there would be no chance for the pups to have any issues from her having Ichthyosis. If she would get lucky and clear up, the Ichthyosis May be a fairly not important issue in her life, right now, it is pretty bad but I have been able to get it under great control with her diet of Iams large breed puppy, 1 egg daily, the a blend of essential oils applied via a belly rub before bed each night (lavender, Myrrh, lemongrass, Frankincense in coconut oil), Head & Tail for skin & coat treats that are omega 3, 6 & 9 balanced with vitamin E, weekly baths with WEN for dogs and using a Furbliss massage brush while she has the conditioning cleanser in her hair to massage it into her skin and stimulate her cells, we brush her out daily and every days we use WEN Pet replenishing mist to help keep her coat silky and shiny. 
As of today she is looking good, we don’t know what will happen next week and 5 days ago she had a huge amount of flaking and just ended antibiotics from a bacterial skin infection so things change fast! A judge may have to be the one to decide what is fair in this case. The breeder doesn’t want to even speak to me, she wants this to all just go away. I have only asked for her to pay for the DNA testing. I don’t want her to take my puppy back!! If she comes back positive now though, we will probably go to small claims court and see what the judge thinks is fair. It sounds like they usually compensate the purchaser with a monetary reimbursement of some amount if you are wanting to keep the puppy. Who would have thought that NOT having signed any contracts actually worked in my favor on this one!?! It says the contracts usually are to protect the breeder more than the buyer. I wish Indiana had a Puppy Lemon Law! That would have really helped me...22 states have them but not Indiana so we will go with the UCC code and see what happens! I am just thankful there is something out there to protect me& other buyers who get all mushy in the heart and don’t use the better judgment that we should have. I will say, I thought this breeder was WAY better than what I am finding out now!!! Here is one link to a UCC site for you to check out... https://www.animallaw.info/article/sale-companion-animals-breeders-and-retailers


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

I think you may want to rethink the court approach. Most lemon laws are unique to each state. The standard for measuring health issues is judged based on the dogs ability to function normally as a pet. 

Under the law there is no guarantee of "Perfect" health as no living thing is perfect. Is the dog able to function as a pet? If so you most likely do not have a case.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Yikes! I just don’t even know what to say here other than why aren’t you testing your dog? If the breeder is as sub-par as I expect, based on selling a full registration puppy to any comer, they probably have not done any testing. Not even the much more important hips, elbows, eyes, and heart testing. Those by the way should have been very important on your list if you were looking for a service dog prospect. 

If you are going to try legal remedy, you really should wait for your puppy to grow up. There is evidence out there this condition can be mitigated by maturity (evidence that could be presented). An argument could also be made that the amount of non-prescription (beauty) products you are applying could be a contributing factor. I show and I have never placed the amount of products in my dogs coat that you are. It is one thing if under the direction of a vet you are directed to use an anti-bacterial, etc. But, I highly doubting WEN is a product your vet is recommending. Ichthyosis is usually best helped by an increase in dietary (fish) oils which it sounds like your vet proscribed but you are choosing not to do. 

Your puppy was incredibly cheap for a breeding prospect. The $1000 price tag tells me this is very likely a back yard breeder. That is why I am 99% sure this puppy has a dismally deficient health testing background. But, there is no requirement placed on any breeder to test. If they did not quote any testing to you and clearly did not have a written guarantee, then they have been fair with you. 

I don’t believe it is their responsibly to test at this point. You could have made that request prior to purchase but after the fact, I really see no value in it for you. It doesn’t really matter what their result is, it matter what Lady’s result is. I can’t buy a vehicle and after having it for a period of time ask the selller to pay for a CarFax. If I wanted that, it was on me prior to the purchase. The CarFax would not make a difference in the functionality of the car, in the same way that Ichthyosis is not going to impede the function of Lady as a pet or even a breeding dog. 

It sounds like you have entered into this whole situation completely unprepared to make this kind of purchase. Please, please, please get some education before you ever consider breeding. At this point you don’t have the knowledge of an informed buyer, you certainly need more in order to determine if this puppy is a candidate for breeding. At this time I would have so say she very likely isn’t. Full registration papers is not the determining factor for breeding ethically. 

Learn about all of the issues for which DNA testing is available. Learn about the phenotypic testing for hips, elbows, eyes, and heart. Head over to K9Data and learn to use this great, free tool to research Lady’s pedigree to look at coefficients of inbreeding, longevity, health testing in previous generations, etc. Go to the Golden Retriever Club of America’s website and start with the puppy buyer information then work through the health information and then keep going. Read the standard, often. Look at the illustrated standard and think seriously about getting her evaluated in the CCA program. Go to The Orthopedic Foundation for Animals and read all you can there. Go to the Canine Health Information Center and read the specifics for our breed. Check out Paw Prints Genetics (https://www.pawprintgenetics.com/products/tests/details/18/) and the other approved labs for more information. It would have been ideal to do all of this free and easily accessible research prior to buying a puppy with the end goal of breeding but, you should absolutely do it now. Then set feelings aside and make a honest evaluation as to if this dog should be breed. Every single person thinks they have the “best, sweetest, smartest” dog, but being “best, sweetest, smartest” does not make a good breeding dog. Breeding dogs have to be better in health, better in structure, etc.

I hope her flaking is better controlled or disappears with age as can be common with this Golden Retriever variant of Ichthyosis.


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## Kodiakgal1 (Mar 4, 2017)

*ich*

My female goldie had a mild/moderate (depending on season) case. I would take it in a heartbeat over other health issues.
It's like a case of dandruff and she was never itchy. 
Lots of goldens were bred together when both were carriers before the test was common.
She was still beautiful and her coat was great!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Leslie B said:


> I have to disagree with any push to eliminate it from the gene pool and produce only clear dogs. We have no idea what the gene for ICH is attached to, related to, or affected by. It could be that this gene is connected to great marking, trainability, or even for keeping dogs at the correct height. As Barb said, there is some connection with bowel disorders and affected dogs that was previously unknown. It was only thru testing and then tracking of these dogs with the disorder that it became apparent. The canine genotype is too vast for us to have an understanding of all the facets.
> 
> Given the enormous number of goldens that are at least carriers of ICH, particularly in field lines, I would not be willing to risk losing their talent from our gene pool.


Also many show lines have ICH. Show people have been much slower to test than field people have been. I'm not exactly sure why they've hesitated. I have a show dog friend that breeds 8-10 litters a year. She finally got around to testing her dogs. And guess what? She had quite a few carriers. Surprise! ICH is everywhere, not just field lines.

I totally agree that what gene ICH is attached to could be very important. With labs they test for EIC, which is terrible disease. Our breeding pool cannot get any smaller as it is, especially field dogs.

P.S. My field boy is clear on all genetic tests. Which is really nice so I don't have to hesitate if I want to breed him to a bitch that is even affected.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

It seems to me that breeding an acting service dog (a real one, that is) is contradictory.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

FWIW, acting service dogs (I have one) are not allowed to be therapy dogs, either.


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## Sweese (Sep 25, 2013)

2 years ago I started this thread and 2 years ago I bred my carrier female (HRCH Wasatch's Resolute Cassie) to a super nice dog (GRHRCH Red Hot Titan MNH MH) that is clear of Ichthy and skipping over a lot of other great dogs in the process. Good news....the puppies turned out great but could they have been better??. In that the process I got to see another dog work (GRHRCH Ready for Yeti MH MNH QAA) that I liked even more and wanted to breed to him in 2018. However, he is a carrier and so is Cassie so I knew that statistically 25% of the litter will be affected. Is this "dandruff" a risk worth taking so that some superb field dogs (tractability, marking, nose, speed, etc..) can be brought up? Yes, I thought so. I figured that in all my research that if you only bred a "carrier" to a "clear" or an "affected" to a "clear" (frowned upon??) you are really narrowing the options for breeding. Let's figure about 25% - 30% of the GR population is "clear" and in that group of Goldens how many are superb field dogs and are comparable in speed, size, skin coat...? Not that many! I have researched.

So, with full disclosure to my buyers and with plans for DNA testing the litter I moved forward with breeding 2 carriers (HRCH Wasatach's Resolute Cassie x GRHRCH Ready for Yeti MN MNH QAA). BTW, Yeti came out of a carrier to carrier breeding himself and has a littermate that has also achieved GRHRCH. Other siblings and offspring have also been titled and great hunting companions. If that one breeding was held back, we would have taken so many outstanding dogs out of the gene pool for this skin disorder - a shame! I was prepared to keep an affected dog myself. I knew these dogs would be outstanding.

Statistics is a funny thing especially when prayer is involved. The puppies are almost 4 weeks old today and the DNA results just came back. Out of 8 puppies, I have no affected dogs. 50% of the dogs are carriers and 50% are clear. So now, myself and my puppy owners don't have to worry about this one pesky skin disorder just all the other stuff we plan to encounter in the field and during training.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Sweese,
I have a clear boy. I’ve gotten a lot of calls because he’s clear on all genetic tests. Latest call was from a woman with an affected bitch. She was absolutely not going to breed to a carrier. She doesn’t wish affected on anyone. Her bitch has huge flakes and looks terrible. Brushing her is really hard because the brush fills very quickly with flakes and not with fur. Her bitch was a carrier to carrier breeding and she was the unlucky affected dog. Are we limiting the breeding pool? We are unfortunately. This woman could only find about 10 or 11 nice field dogs to breed to. That’s not good when the gene pool is that small. Will affected dogs be a bad thing? I don’t think so. But I wouldn’t want one after grooming one myself last year. It was rather unpleasant. Does it affect the dog’s performance? Definitely NOT.


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## Mandmac (Mar 30, 2021)

kwhit said:


> Probably 1/10 of the flakes brushed out at a time. And I'm sure I'm underestimating.


Hi, I know this post is old, but I was wondering how Chance is doing. I just recently purchased a puppy from a breeder and I’m sure he has ICT. I’m getting him tested in a couple of weeks. I’m in love with him, but I am getting a lot of anxiety about his future. I would never give him up, but it seems like this is going to be very hard to live with. Thanks in advance for any advice you can give me.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that ICT can be seen on young puppies, certainly before they are 8 weeks, so if you are concerned look on the coat for 'dandruff' and sometimes the skin on the tummy is scaly as well. These flaky puppies may become totally normal even if they test affected for ICT but it is something that can be seen in young puppies unlike many other genetic conditions.Annef


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## BarkCreekGoldens (Dec 5, 2021)

How old is your golden with affected skin like that?
I have an affected girl and no issues whatsoever with her (she's 1.5)





kwhit said:


> I've posted before about Chance's Ich and I've also posted that it's a condition that I would never wish on any dog or owner. I hear a lot that there are other conditions that we deal with in our breed that are worse, (maybe breeders trying to validate why they don't test for it). IMO, I wish/believe that every dog in every breeding program should be tested for Ich. Would I take it over his elbow dysplasia? Well, duh, yeah. But when there is testing to avoid it, why should anyone ever have to?
> 
> A 1/4 cup of flakes...I wish! The pictures I'm posting is after I had already brushed Chance thoroughly, which I do twice a day. These are the flakes left over. Not pretty. And they get all over everything...the carpet, my car, beds, everywhere. It's been a lot better as he got older, but it's still something we have to deal with constantly.
> 
> Only lets me post one picture per post. :uhoh:


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

BarkCreekGoldens said:


> How old is your golden with affected skin like that?
> I have an affected girl and no issues whatsoever with her (she's 1.5)


I have an affected boy. His fakes were noticeable as a puppy, got quite severe until we found a strict routine and stuck with it. He also got neutered after he turned 2 and the flakes did seem to improve greatly after that. Now you’d never notice he had it.


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