# Judging in Conformation



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

It's the dog unless you are watching the junior handler competitions, in which case it's the handler.


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

The reason that I ask this question, is that a few weeks ago, I actually saw a judge pull out the list of dogs (goldens) in his ring. 

I will follow up with another question, to verify that it is just the dog, would not a blind study verify this?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

No, it would not.
A handler presents a dog to his/her best, they don't change the dog. 
For example, I move like a baby hippo. When I showed my dog myself, I only put 2 points on him. He has to slow down and move with a choppy stride if I am moving him.
When I hired a (basically unknown) handler to take him in the ring, as a ring-side pick-up, he quickly finished with 3 majors, 2 of them 4 point majors.
The dog didn't change. I didn't send him out with the handler, and that person didn't select shows to enter nor judges to show to. What changed was he was with someone who could show the judges the dog's qualities, not someone who made him look bad in the ring.



St. Louis said:


> The reason that I ask this question, is that a few weeks ago, I actually saw a judge pull out the list of dogs (goldens) in his ring.
> 
> I will follow up with another question, to verify that it is just the dog, would not a blind study verify this?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

They are not supposed to look at the catalog when judging, from my understanding. 


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

No, they are not. But short of actually asking the judge what he/she is looking at, it would be hard to tell that it's the goldens that he/she hasn't yet judged, as versus the ones already judged, as versus the listing of another breed that he/she isn't judging.



goldenjackpuppy said:


> They are not supposed to look at the catalog when judging, from my understanding.
> 
> 
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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Or the breed standard, I have seen judges refer to the standard mid judging a couple if times.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> They are not supposed to look at the catalog when judging, from my understanding.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This is true. A judge should never look at the catalog or book when judging however I have seen it done. In one case the judge told my handler just how lovely one of my girls was could not take her eyes off of her. 

She walks over the to catalog and puts up every dog owned, bred by or handled by a certain owner, handler and breeder and dumps the only dog in the ring that she never took her eyes off of. There are judges out there known and "handler judges" you just have to figure out who they are and not support them. JMO


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

This judge took the list out of his coat pocket looked at the list and the turned back to look at the dogs. It just really raised many questions. I am not saying that the dogs who won did not deserve it, but it was just not right in what the judge did.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

It may be purely that the judge knew someone that might be in the ring and wanted to reference back to a person or something innocent like that. Or maybe they were looking to see how long their day was going to be. Hard to say what was going through that judge's mind.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I'm sure the judge didn't have the catalog in his pocket. Lots of judges keep notes on the armband numbers to know who they will cut or place, especially in a large class.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

K9-Design said:


> I'm sure the judge didn't have the catalog in his pocket. Lots of judges keep notes on the armband numbers to know who they will cut or place, especially in a large class.


I agree with Anney here. I highly doubt it was the catalog. It was most likely his notes from the different classes.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

St. Louis said:


> This judge took the list out of his coat pocket looked at the list and the turned back to look at the dogs. It just really raised many questions. I am not saying that the dogs who won did not deserve it, but it was just not right in what the judge did.



This is done all the time. If the classes are huge a judge may take notes and refer back to them to make their final cuts and or decisions. Golden are very competitive and are much of the time the largest entry at a show.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

ah, it was probably a Chinese take out menu


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

Exactly, he wasn't sure what to order. No, it was not the catalog, but the a sheet with the names of the goldens. This was not a huge show. If one is truly evaluating the dog, I don't think any list is needed.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

OK, I call shenanigans. How do you know what he had on the piece of paper?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Did you literally see the document? What document besides the catalog has the names of the dogs listed in advance? My club's specialty is this Friday and our show chair doesn't even have a document to that effect, let alone the judge. 


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

Yes, I did see the sheet, with the list of goldens on it.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

But it wasn't the catalog? Where would such a document come from? I'm just not totally understanding here. 


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm also mildly curious how you saw what was on the document if the judge took it out of his pocket? Were you ring stewarding? If I was certain that happened as an exhibitor or observer I would have immediately talked to the AKC rep, personally. 

Or just don't enter under that judge again. I was at a show last year where I was really horrified at the judging, for reasons I don't want to get into on a public forum. I was so angry afterward but realized there is not much I can do about it except not enter my dogs under that judge. It happens, but you either play the game or you don't. 


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'm also mildly curious how you saw what was on the document if the judge took it out of his pocket? Were you ring stewarding? If I was certain that happened as an exhibitor or observer I would have immediately talked to the AKC rep, personally.


Agreed, if I was so comfortable being in the judge's personal space as to see what was written on a note in his pocket, I guess I'd just ask him what the note was about.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

I have to agree. There would be no way to see what was on that paper. I have been in many rings where judges have taken notes and could not see what he/she has written no matter how hard I tried lol. You would have to be very close or the writing very large.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I gotta say, ONE time I DID see the note.
Had won WD at a pretty big specialty. Judge was an older woman who knew the right dogs to pick but was INCREDIBLY SLOW. Ridiculously slow. After she had gone over all the specials, she had some trouble sorting out who was winning what. She went down the line looking and writing down armband numbers. I happened to have my dog stacked near the steward's table, where the judge proceeded to have a little conference with the steward to make sure her ribbons were right before she starting lining up the dogs (Select? What's that? oh geeze). Anyways I saw on her note that "BOW" was an even number so I turned to WB and said congrats you got Best of Winners LOL


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

I was not the steward. It definitely was the list of goldens; the reason I posted this, is because this was the first time I saw anything like this.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Were you looking over the judge's shoulder? Holding hands with him? Having lunch with him? 
Even if it was a list of the competitors, who cares. Trust me judges don't need to read the catalog to figure out who is who if they are looking to play politics. If you felt there was a big conspiracy theory going on, report it to the AKC rep.


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## St. Louis (May 28, 2012)

My original question, is the dog being evaluated or the handler? I was outside of the ring and the judge walked towards me. I have been at the GRCA and never did see this. I am asking the question, because this is the first time I had seen it. I don't know what the AKC guidelines are for the judges, but I think it just raises questions. I really don't think the judge needs the list of the dogs/handlers. Watch the dogs, exam them and place them in order according to the breed standards.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I think we all agree with the notion that the dogs should be evaluated not the handlers. You won't get any disagreement from me or, i suspect, the others posting in this thread. I would high tail it over to the AKC rep if I saw a judge looking at a catalog or list, otherwise just don't enter under that judge again. There is not much else one can do, all judges are not created equal. 


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