# breeder doesnt believe in OFA certifications



## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

The breeder that I was speaking with meets all the good breeder criteria except for one...

When I asked her if the dam and sire were OFA certified on hips/elbows/eyes/heart etc she said that the parents of the dam and sire are but the actual dam and sire are not becuase she doesnt believe in doing that because it requires putting them through anesthesia and xrays which she said arent always good for the dogs?

what do you guys think about that....


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I think you should get a puppy from a different breeder.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I think you should get a puppy from a different breeder.


Agreed x10000


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

So not doing everything you can to prevent producing puppies with serious health issues IS worth the risk?????? I'd be crossing her off the list.


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## eeneymeanymineymo (Oct 5, 2009)

RUN......as fast as you can! That has to be one of the worst excuses!!

Depending on where your breeder is located, many states do not require anesthesia for hips and elbows. Canada does not as well as a few other states I am familiar with. Breeding without OFA/PennHip or BVA on hips & elbows is taking a gamble and I would not personally accept a puppy from a breeder who is not at least doing one of them. They could drive to another state if their state requires anesthesia. My question would be to them "why not find an alternative"???

OFA hearts and Eye CERFS should be done.....they don't require anesthesia! LOL!

I am sure you can find a breeder who DOES do clearances for hips/elbows/eyes & heart. May take time but it will be worth it in the long run!


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

Run, run as fast as you can !! Look for someone else !!!!


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

Yeah she told me that it wasnt necessary because the parents of the dam and sire were certified and she showed me the pedigree of 5 generations back..

I wish I would've known about this site before I did anything :doh:


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

If you put down a deposit ask for it back! Tell her you're concerned about the lack of health clearances on the parents and would like to do more research. Can't hurt to ask!


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## Augie's Mom (Sep 28, 2007)

Augie got his clearances hips/elbow/heart/eyes and never had to be put under anesthesia for any of them. 

Not sure what criteria you are using for "good breeder" but I would think clearances would be at the top of the list.


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

another question about breeders, not this once in particular but just in general

is it bad if the pups come with full registration instead of limited?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I agree-she's making excuses, plain and simple. My guys are never put under for clearances and there are a lot of good vets out there who do it with light sedation or even nothing at all.

Does she provide a warranty should the puppy develop hip or elbow problems? One that doesn't require the return of the original puppy?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Every responsible breeder that I know sells puppies to non-competitive (pet) homes on a limited registration. I do see it as a bad sign when they are willing to sell on a full registration to anyone who can write them a check for a puppy.

I really love the sites where they say they sell all puppies on Limited Registration, unless you are interested in showing or breeding. Invariably, these are "breeders" who don't compete themselves, but somehow are magically able to evaluate show prospects in their litters. And if they compete strictly in International shows or UKC, at least make that clear to puppy buyers, since AKC competition is a world apart.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I think you should get a puppy from a different breeder.


Agreed 100%. There is absolutely no excuse for breeding dogs without the necessary OFA clearances. Definitely run far away from this breeder. In fact, who is the breeder? It would be good to know so others can avoid them.

Both of our boys have limited AKC registrations because our breeder does not want her pups to be bred, which I think is very responsible.


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## eeneymeanymineymo (Oct 5, 2009)

Limited registration is the norm for pet puppies. Why is she offering FULL registration? Does not sound very responsible coming from a reputable breeder! JMHO! 

Hopefully you can get your deposit back if you have already paid one! 

Where are you located? Perhaps we can help you locate a puppy from a breeder who does do all 4 clearances!


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

I live in Gurnee, IL 60031 and I'm looking for it to be ready to go home by mid may/beginning of june and looking to spend no more than $1000.

I just emailed her now telling her what everyeon said and I wil see what she responds with...I'll see if I can get my deposit back, hopefully I can....


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

erivera0165 said:


> I live in Gurnee, IL 60031 and I'm looking for it to be ready to go home by mid may/beginning of june and looking to spend no more than $1000.
> 
> I just emailed her now telling her what everyeon said and I wil see what she responds with...I'll see if I can get my deposit back, hopefully I can....


Definitely a BYB. I hope you can get your deposit back.


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

this was her response

Edwin,

If you go out to K9data.com, and type in Prince Maximus and Princess Mia you will see that both of their parents and ancestory have OFA Certification, it is not necessary for me to have them OFA Certified. Alos, the Full Registration is not that I don't care about where they go, it'c a choice and many breeders require the spayding because they do not want the dogs bred, I do not require spayding or neutering because I feel that each family has the right to make that choice. I can guarantee you and also supply you with great references my puppies are healthy and the families that have purchased them are very pleased also.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

erivera0165 said:


> this was her response
> 
> Edwin,
> 
> If you go out to K9data.com, and type in Prince Maximus and Princess Mia you will see that both of their parents and ancestory have OFA Certification, it is not necessary for me to have them OFA Certified. Alos, the Full Registration is not that I don't care about where they go, it'c a choice and many breeders require the spayding because they do not want the dogs bred, I do not require spayding or neutering because I feel that each family has the right to make that choice. I can guarantee you and also supply you with great references my puppies are healthy and the families that have purchased them are very pleased also.


OMG...run away FAST! "Spayding""??? She can't even spell!

Just past generations having OFA clearances is NOT good enough. The dogs that she is breeding need to have hips, elbows, heart, and eyes. There is no way she should even be breeding these dogs without them. From the looks of her email, she is practically promoting irresponsible breeding! Her response just makes me sick.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Please take the time to become familiar with this most important info put out by the Golden Ret. Club of America. http://www.grca.org/allabout/a_find.html It will so help you weed through the many types and quality of breeders.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

SPAYDING?!?!?!

I am so, so happy you came on here and asked. I really hope you are able to get your deposit back!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I love it when someone thinks that they know more than those who have devoted themselves to a particular area of expertise. 

Not all vet use anesthesia. And if it facilitates taking a good radiograph, it is very VERY unlikely that it will harm the dogs. 

I think that anethesia is a big fat excuse for someone too cheap and unethical to do what is right.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

So this "breeder" doesn't believe in doing clearances on her pups' parents, and it's OK if those pups are used for breeding down the line. I see nothing good about that breeder. I hope you can get your deposit back. I know little about breeding, but there are red flags all over the place here.


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

funny because she's already sold to 5 other people haha

well I'm currently looking for a breeder and now know what a breeder should be like

so once I find one I will ask her if I can get my deposit back


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I know very little about breeding, but I know that it's necessary to have those health clearances. Her flawed logic astounds me. Where are you located? There are a lot of very knowledgeable people on here who can refer you to reputable breeders.


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

Run Away from her!.
You have,plenty of good breeders that do the testing and it's well worth paying more,to have that security!.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I know very little about breeding, but I know that it's necessary to have those health clearances. Her flawed logic astounds me. Where are you located? There are a lot of very knowledgeable people on here who can refer you to reputable breeders.


Her flawed logic astounds me too. Imagine, she has decided that because the grandparents of this litter are OFA-certified, and not the parents, that it's not necessary to have clearances on the parents--that they are healthy.

So let's say all breeders use that logic. The breeders would then, at the next generation, have to make the decision to use goldens whose parents *and* grand-parents don't have clearances (although their great grandparents would).

Oh, I think I get the logic though. . .the new mantra would be that it's ok to breed goldens whose parents and grand-parents don't have clearances, because their great grand parents do. Bleh.

To the OP, can you not look up any Golden clubs in Illinois and email their puppy referral coordinators and get the names of some breeders who might have a litter available? Word to the wise--the litter may not be available as per your time frame, but for those of us who have purchased from hobby breeders, we really haven't cared if we've had to wait several months longer--or have lucked out and have received a call that a pup is available sooner--it has been worth it either way. And if the price is $1200--find it in your budget and spring for the extra $200--the right breeder is worth it.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you'uns get em spayding, then you ain't gonna be able to have them bread!


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I would be asking for the deposit back NOW. Regardless of if she gives it back or not, find a breeder who does all the clearances on their dogs, and don't worry as much about the purchase price. You will spend far more in the long run if the dog has health issues!

Besides, most pet dogs will have to go under to get spayded (ha) so it's a good idea to make sure the parents can handle that themselves before being used for breeding anyway!

Lana


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

Big Fat LIAR! RUN! Do not buy a puppy from her! What a bunch of crud!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Nicole74 said:


> Big Fat LIAR!!


This sums it up. LOL


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Contact your local GR clubs for a puppy referral. 

Remember that even if you have to pay more than what you've allotted, a good breeder will be worth it. Forget your deposit with this lady. Chalk it up to a lesson learned- don't get a puppy from her just because she keeps your deposit. That would be a terrible mistake.

When you think you've found a new breeder- start a new topic and ask for opinions.

http://www.wrgrc.org/
http://www.sigrc.org/

http://www.goldenretrieverclubofillinoisinc.org/


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## kajx016 (Feb 7, 2010)

I know a breeder that lives in Iowa... I would not recommend her to my worst enemy. I bought a sick puppy from her and had to work my butt off to get my money back. Message me if you would like to know her name or location so you don't accidentally buy from her.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Everyone here is giving sound advice.... RUN!!!!

That being said I REALLY want to contact this breeder and give her a piece of my mind. I won't but... To be so ignorant thinking that generations before being of sound clearances, can not produce bad genes! I was called "novice" by a breeder friend because if I see "fair" hips or any offspring on a largely used stud having HD, I stay away from the line. Maybe I am going to far, but we all know two dogs with the BEST of clearances, can produce a problem pup. Sure the chances decrease but to say you don't need to because the parents were done? Ignorant, and foolish.

Sorry you most likely will lose your deposit. It would probably be less than the vet bills those pups could cost you. 

Ann


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm sure you guys are all right and I'm completely at fault for not doing my research but unfortunately she will not return the deposit and I can not afford to lose $400. I'm going to try to be optomistic and think that alot families I know own rescue dogs that are not OFA certified and have had no issues. Lets hope I'm not unlucky


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

Maxs Mom said:


> I REALLY want to contact this breeder and give her a piece of my mind.


So do I! 

I can't believe that she won't give you your $400 back. Did she have you sign anything saying that if you back out of the deal you won't get your deposit back? If not, I would actually be tempted to call the police. I would think that would be classified as theft. If you wrote her a check and she hasn't cashed it yet, you can call your bank and have them put a stop payment on it ASAP.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I agree with everyone else about moving on and finding a breeder who conforms to the GRCA guidelines _as a bare minimum_. There's a lot more to look at than that, but it's a good start.

I'd also say that it _seems_ like a luxury to spend more on a dog upfront. However, when it comes to making sure the dog has all health clearances and a recent pedigree where all ancestors have clearances, you'll save that $300 or $500 in the long run. The chances of expensive health problems are much, much lower in a properly bred dog.

It's a waste of money to pay for a "rare" dog, and if you're looking for a pet, there's no reason to drop $5000 on a dog from famous lines. However, spending $1000-$1500 in order to ensure that all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed is cheaper than spending $700 on a dog with incomplete clearances or a less healthy pedigree.

Besides, the $1200 purchase price is DWARFED by a lifetime of veterinary care, and that's if the dog never has a major health problem. 

I just spent $700 at the vet at a routine visit with two dogs. A couple of blood tests, vaccinations, and one slide to look at ear yeast, and boom!

If the dog has hip dysplasia, which is much more likely if the parents aren't cleared, a hip replacement can easily run $5000. And that doesn't include followup appointments, supplements, whatever.

Good breeding practices are no guarantee, but by lowering the likelihood of problems, they pay for themselves overall. And that's just speaking financially. Even if they didn't pay for themselves, they'd still be worth it, since they prevent unnecessary suffering.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I really understand your predicament- that must be tough to think of losing $400. 

Can you call the bank and cancel the check? Do it ASAP if she hasn't cashed it.

While I understand that rescues are also a chance, too, I think there are many a member here that can attest to the $5000 hip/elbow replacement. $400 seems like a drop in the bucket when you see that figure. Good luck, no matter your decision.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you are going to go ahead with the purchase, make sure you get IN WRITING and SIGNED by this "breeder" a full money back guarantee should your puppy be diagnosed with any hereditary defect. And if she refuses, then I would say, then I want my money back and you will next be talking to my lawyer!


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## Goldnbear (Dec 28, 2009)

Bender said:


> I would be asking for the deposit back NOW. Regardless of if she gives it back or not, find a breeder who does all the clearances on their dogs


EXACTLY! It shouldn't matter if you find another litter or not. It will be worth the wait if necessary, please don't "settle" for this litter. I have heard this excuse so many times about not "believing in clearances". Oh baloney! It's called laziness. Oh and yeah, most (well bred and trained) dogs do not need to be put under for OFA x rays. And if she doesn't believe in OFA, she could use another registry or at the very LEAST had x rays evaluated by a qualified veterinarian. There are way too many good breeders in the midwest to settle for this one!


Ok, sorry I should have read the rest of the posts to see that the OP has already asked for the deposit back. In that case, how old are the puppies? If they aren't that old, it really isn't unreasonable for her to give it back to you, I'd push harder!


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

Yeah, well thanks for everyones input. Like I said I'm just going to go with the flow now, it's a lesson well learned and I hope everything comes out good.


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## Goldnbear (Dec 28, 2009)

Are the puppies you are interested in the ones that were just born on April 6th? 2 days old, come on, she can't give you your deposit back? Well, if you are satisfied with your decision, I will drop it. Good luck!


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

As others have said, please, please don't just settle on this "breeder". You have no idea what you may be in for. I would much rather lose $400 than get a puppy who is potentially going to cost thousands of dollars in vet bills later down the road and have a shorter lifespan than a golden who came from a good, responsible breeder who does everything possible to ensure a healthy litter. Plus, by purchasing one of her pups, you are supporting this type of irresponsible backyard breeding. I would just scratch this breeder off your list, take her to small claims court if she refuses to refund your money, and find a responsible breeder. You will probably be much better off in the long run by doing so. I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to do.


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

Yeah I'm just going to accept it rather than regret it, it's not the pups fault it's mine and I'm going to love it no matter what...

I'll keep you guys posted on what happens...


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

erivera0165 said:


> Yeah I'm just going to accept it rather than regret it, it's not the pups fault it's mine and I'm going to love it no matter what...
> 
> I'll keep you guys posted on what happens...


I guess I don't really understand that statement. What would you regret by walking away from a litter produced by a sire and dam with absolutely no health clearances whatsoever and an irresponsible breeder who obviously doesn't know a thing about breeding responsibly? You could be saving yourself a huge amount of money, time, and heartache if you were to end up with an unhealthy pup. I can tell you one thing for sure. If that pup develops HD, ED, cardiac problems, or cancer, that breeder is not going to be there to help you out. :uhoh:


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

I meant that it looks like I'm going to have to get the pup and I don't want there to be any regretful feelings toward the puppy. Like I said it was my mistake and let's hope nothing bad happens


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

OH, while I have everyone reading my post haha I thought I'd ask about pet insurance...

what do you guys use and what are your experiences with it...since I obviously dont do good research...but I have heard that VPI is very bad....


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Sorry, but your conclusion and solution is pretty lame. Call her and tell her you will see her in small claims court if she doesn't return your deposit within 30 days. Done.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I hope everything turns out okay, and I can understand not being able to lose $400 right now. 

You know now. I bet your puppy will be just fine- as long as you accept the risk, then it's your choice. It's definitely not the puppy's fault. If you let her keep your deposit, she'll sell him to someone else and make an extra $400 for her shady practices!!! 

It is bullcrap about them having to be put under. I have had no fewer than seven dogs x-rayed in the past year and every one was awake. All but one, the films were good enough to send in, though I had no need to as these were all spayed/neutered dogs.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

erivera0165 said:


> I meant that it looks like I'm going to have to get the pup and I don't want there to be any regretful feelings toward the puppy. Like I said it was my mistake and let's hope nothing bad happens


No, you don't HAVE to get the puppy. No one is forcing you to go with this breeder. Just because you already put a deposit down doesn't mean that you're trapped. Like I said, if she refuses to refund your $400, tell her you'll see her in small claims court and go your separate ways. Nothing bad is going to happen to you if you do that. Why would you even put yourself in this situation? There are so many people on this forum who can help you find a great breeder. I'm sorry, but I just don't understand your reasoning here and I agree with K9 Design that your conclusion is pretty lame. :no:


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## kajx016 (Feb 7, 2010)

it sounds like she asked for advice but doesn't like the advice she's getting. trust me, you don't want to buy from a breeder who doesn't know what s/he's doing. If she isn't willing to work with you on this, then you won't have any easier time working with her if your puppy ends up having problems. i have been through this!! learn from my mistake.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

It says on her website that the deposit is nonrefundable unless they cant provide you with a puppy. So taking her to small claims court probably would not do her any good. 

I do understand were people are coming from on not going with that breeder but do not come down so hard. Not everyone can just throw $400 away and then go to another breeder. Yes she did go about it wrong but I say lets help her now find a good pet insurance company so if the puppy has some health problems in the future the puppy is covered. This puppy would have been sold to someone else and that breeder would have made double money off this one dog. 

Maybe when she picks the puppy up she can ask for some type of a puppy guarantee so that if the puppy has some health problems the puppy is covered. Yes this "breeder" does things wrong by not getting the clearances but at least it is the first generation and the past generations do have them and they are not bad. So hopefully these puppies will all be in good health and isnt that what everyone wants.


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

erivera0165 said:


> I'm sure you guys are all right and I'm completely at fault for not doing my research but unfortunately she will not return the deposit and I can not afford to lose $400. I'm going to try to be optomistic and think that alot families I know own rescue dogs that are not OFA certified and have had no issues. Lets hope I'm not unlucky


I have a rescue that had major surgery on both hips due to hip dysplasia. He has a gem of a personality but has had all sorts of medical issues. I also have a byb Golden with OFA rated "excellent" hips but her temperament leaves a lot to be desired. I love them both dearly but for my next dog I decided to get a youngster from a reputable breeder. Just the route I decided to go.
I wish you the best with your decision. If this is the breeder you decide to choose, go enjoy and love your pup. We all have to make the best of it should problems arise no matter where we get our pups.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I agree with Carol.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

I agree with Carol too. This puppy is here, it deserves a good home. At least she's going in with eyes wide open. Let's just all hope for the best.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

You have no written agreement with this person. You can certainly get your deposit back, and she may just fork it over rather than have to defend herself in small claims.


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## Goldnbear (Dec 28, 2009)

I am so disappointed with this breeder that they would still even want to keep your deposit and home a puppy with you if you are having such negative feelings about the whole situation. Whether you are trying to move past it or not for the puppy's sake is besides the point. You still feel trapped and feel like you are "settling" and simply because she won't refund a deposit. I still say it is ridiculous that she wouldn't do it- the puppies are only days old. She will not go to court if you put that out there, at least not if she has any brains in her head. She will give it back to you. It's time to 'man up' if you are still on the fence in the least. Good luck with whatever you end up doing.


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

I agree with Carol too 

and by the way I'm a he not a she

and as far as pet insurance goes PurinaCare was the only one that I found that covers hereditery issues, which im sure hip dysplasia would be under that, and I've read great reviews on that one website that rates all pet insurances.....

I'm kind of hoping for some support about this instead of everyone bashing me...I did try to get my deposit back but since she wont budge like I said I'm just going to give the puppy a good home and hope nothing happens, and if something does happen then I'll deal with it....my next golden I will make sure to get from a very responsible breeder....


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*erivera*

erivera

Understand your feelings. Carol has a good point.
How much is the puppy? Just curious.
My hubby and I have purchased two Samoyeds from breeders - pet quality-
and Snobear, who we purchased in 1999, was $700. Both breeders did the OFA.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

I think getting good pet insurance from the start is a great idea. At least then, if the puppy does have health issues, the insurance will cover at least part of the costs. Good luck with your new little guy (or girl).


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

I would run...

Edit: Too late


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Wait, back the truck up...

I don' think this is it at all.

I think he realized, too late, that he may have made a mistake. So he asked. And found out he did. I've felt like this every time I've bought a Chrysler product LOL

And he isn't being presented with any reasonable way out of the situation by the breeder.

And it all sucks.

But I don't think he deserves to get beat up over it all... We learn and move on. The Pup is a living thing that deserves a good home. No clearances doesn't automatically guarantee a Pup will have issues. Having them doesn't guarantee against it.

Once the pup comes home, none of this will matter 

Now that you know you have to take the pup, don't dwell on it. You'll forget all about this once he's home. Just prepare for it like any other pet purchase.

Now, my guys have their own checking account (Critter Fund) and Debit Card. I automatically transfer $75 to it every 2 week paycheck. It pays for their food, insurance, etc... Since I now have two, I will have to up that to around $125 each paycheck, but can't quite yet until some other matters are taken care of.



kajx016 said:


> it sounds like she asked for advice but doesn't like the advice she's getting. trust me, you don't want to buy from a breeder who doesn't know what s/he's doing. If she isn't willing to work with you on this, then you won't have any easier time working with her if your puppy ends up having problems. i have been through this!! learn from my mistake.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

If there is no signed contract, I would stop payment on the check. Yes, this puppy deserves a good home, certainly. But, even with pet insurance, this could be a financial nightmare.


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

Nuttingbutgoldens could have not said it much better....
and yeah this doesnt automatically mean my pup is going to come out with a disorder...and actually that whole puppy checking account is a very good idea


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

And finances are only one aspect. 

Behavior problems can come up in any breed and with any type of breeder. But it is less likely to be an issue with a reputable breeder -and- you will have a good support system in case something happens.

Compulsive behaviors, aggression, and separation anxiety can financially impact someone, but the emotional toll is usually what drives pet owners to the edge and often they seek help too late and they are not able to emotionally handle the behavior modification necessary. Surgery and money and procedures alone won't solve these problems. It can get frustrating to not be able to leave your own home without speial plans to keep your dog from tearing up the walls or himself. It can be frustrating to not want to go home from work because you are afraid of your dog or don't want to see his repetitive behaviors. When you get home, you have to do part of the behavior modification becomes a part of your daily routine. 

Look at what preventative measures the breeder is taking. Are the puppies house trained before they go home? Do they meet a hundred -different- people, lots of different dogs (and not just the breeds this person has)? Go on several trips to new places? Have some basic training [not because we need puppies to do a, b, or c, but to help puppies learn how to learn]? Do they experience lots of food, treats, smells, textures, sights, sounds? If the answer is NO, it will be worth the $400 of your time to go elsewhere. There is NO good reason for a breeder to NOT do those things. Sure, goldens are more resilient than some breeds and many turn out okay, but we don't have a lot of members here where it -didn't- turn out okay and the dog was regulated to the backyard, euthanized at home or a shelter, or placed in a new home. Behavioral health is just as important as physical health and it is so often overlooked.

I live with a dog who has severe behavior problems and is from a poor breeder. The brain damage causing his problems likely happened before he came home with me. Every day I work with students or take calls about others who are having challenges. 

There are many resources available on puppy raising and socialization. Start reading. No matter the puppy you get, you'll need to be aware of this information.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

$100/month per dog in an account will cover most vet care and will build up a nice surplus for emergencies. And if those emergencies never happen, well then you can buy your next without hurting your budget.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

erivera0165 said:


> I'm sure you guys are all right and I'm completely at fault for not doing my research but unfortunately she will not return the deposit and I can not afford to lose $400. I'm going to try to be optomistic and think that alot families I know own rescue dogs that are not OFA certified and have had no issues. Lets hope I'm not unlucky


And then their are families like mine who chose to have a light Christmas in 2003 because their puppy needed two surgeries before the age of 1. Those two surgeries cost our family over 6k and Shadow to endure what we chose to do to correct his problems. He is 7 years old now, but when we brought a second Golden into our home we made darn sure the clearances were done going back generations. We love them both dearly, but the only time I will ever take the chance of bringing a dog into our home without clearances is if we rescue. 

I wish you the best of luck. $400.00 can turn into thousands unless you choose to return the pup or euthanize. Like Brian said, save up for emergencies! Make sure you get pet insurance ASAP.


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

I think you need to listen to your gut. 

Our first golden (who was really my boyfriend's and not mine), my gut was telling me to run the other direction. Since it wasn't really my decision, but my BFs, I ignored my gut. Well, we lost him after 2 1/2 short years and in that short time, he cost us nearly $20K and this was 10 years ago -- vet costs are nearly double in this area than they were back then. 

Our next golden was from more of a hobby breeder. His parents did have hip and elbow clearances, but not eye or heart clearances. When we went to pick him up, I was prepared to leave without a pup, if anything didn't seem right. I was hesitant, but nothing stood out that had me wanting to run the other direction. We've really lucked out with him and other than severe allergies that cost us about $400/year to control and a mysterious dropping white blood cell count that costs us about $200 in blood work a year, according to his chiropractor he has excellent structure and is in excellent shape. 

Our newest golden, is from a very reputable breeder and I could not be happier with the experience I've had. He got really sick around his first birthday and the support and knowledge I got from his breeders far exceeded my expectations -- where as our previous two "breeders" could not have cared less about any illness or sickness the dogs experienced. 

All of my goldens have cost us significant money regardless of how they were bred and what kind of breeder they came from. It's part of the responsibility you accept when getting a dog. Going through a breeder that is doing everything to ensure you're getting a healthy dog does minimize your risks, but there are no guarantees. 

However, if your gut tells you something is wrong, you owe it to yourself to listen to that. Every time I've ignored mine, I've regretted it.


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

Well my gut feeling is telling me that everything will turn alright (hopefully)

I dont know if I should post a new thread but I asked before, and I'll ask again....is there a certain insurance company that you guys have had a good experience with? and if anyone has PurinaCare insurance what about that? because I think they are one of the few that covers hereditary problems...I will absolutely call them anyways to find out the extent of coverage before I commite myself to something else....


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

When it comes to dog insurance, it seems more prudent to me to put the money aside every month rather than to pay a company that probably won't cover most of the cost of the truly serious problems.

I've had great success simply saving $100/month/dog. While it might be a bit more than the premiums on an insurance plan, insurance doesn't cover anything, and you don't get to keep the money yourself if nothing goes wrong.

Others have had great success with insurance, though, so my way isn't for everyone.


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## MILLIESMOM (Aug 13, 2006)

erivera0165 said:


> OH, while I have everyone reading my post haha I thought I'd ask about pet insurance...
> 
> what do you guys use and what are your experiences with it...since I obviously dont do good research...but I have heard that VPI is very bad....


I have VPI, it was recommended by the AKC when I registered Millie nine yrs ago. I have had VERY GOOD LUCK with them the operators in customer service are very nice and sincere. The claim forms are very easy to fill out and the check comes in two weeks if you fax it. Your account is available on their site and you can check the status of your claim. Both my dogs recieve birthday cards every year. They sent us a very nice sympathy card also. When we lost Millie in January, I called up to make sure I did the claim form right. The rep I talked to was very comforting when I started to cry. The insurance also covers some of the cost of euthinasia. There are many tiers of this plan and the coverage is very clear on each one. As with many other insurance companies, they do not cover pre exciting illness unless it has been cleared for at least 6 months with proper documentation. They also do not cover genetic problems, like HD. I have just insured our new girl Brie. Before you decide which insurance company you want look them over carefully. Welcome to the forum there is a wealth of information here as well as great support.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I have Embrace. I pay approximately 75.00 per month for two 7 year old dogs. I did drop part of the plan because I couldn't afford 100.00 per month. Now that I may be having my hours cut at work, I may have to rethink a few things. I'm not sure I will drop the insurance though. The insurance I have covers catastrophic issues, not well visits. Those I hope I can still continue to cover on my own.

If you have a Facebook account, Embrace has a site, too. They are really good at answer questions if you call customer service. I had a million of them. PetPlan is another one that people seem to like. PetPlan wasn't available in this area when I signed up.


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## CosbysMommy (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't know about pet insurance (I set aside money each paycheck for vet fund myself) but I just wanted to say I'm sorry you have found yourself in this situation but understand not everyone can walk away from $400. You SHOULD however talk to her in regards to guarantee. Tell her you'd like it in writing that if the pup were to develop HD then the price of puppy would be refunded. She shouldn't have a problem with is since she KNOWS her dogs are fine and will produce fine.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

erivera0165 said:


> Well my gut feeling is telling me that everything will turn alright (hopefully)
> 
> I dont know if I should post a new thread but I asked before, and I'll ask again....is there a certain insurance company that you guys have had a good experience with? and if anyone has PurinaCare insurance what about that? because I think they are one of the few that covers hereditary problems...I will absolutely call them anyways to find out the extent of coverage before I commite myself to something else....


Yes, you are smart to call them direct and get a quote and find out what exactly is covered, and what is not--what PurinaCare's definition of "hereditary problems" is--not what you, or what we think it is--it is not accurate for any of us on this GRF to assume that we know that definition.

I looked up the website real quickly and saw that there is also exclusions for "pre-existing conditions" (which were not really defined, if I owned a pup that I was concerned about hip problems, IMHO) so you really should ask about what PurinaCare's definition is of "pre-existing conditions" are--I know there are standard definitions, but you should get them from the direct source.

Also, get a quote; I think if you were to conduct a poll as to questions regarding pet insurance and who uses what, my gut tells me that the overwhelming response would be that most of us on the GRF "self-insure" and put away so much per month in a separate account, or budget so much per month for our pets. Each person has to decide if the cost of insurance is worth it. Also, as some have stated in their experiences with their insurance, they must file the claim and get reimbursement--it's not like "people insurance" where the doctor's office files the claim for you. So you have to have a good vet that either lets you "float" along waiting for the money from you (from the insurance company) or you have to have enough money to float along waiting to be reimbursed by the insurance company. Not so bad when the bills are little--could be bad when the bills are big. So just because you have insurance (IMHO) doesn't mean you shouldn't have some type of cash reserve for your pets.


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## MILLIESMOM (Aug 13, 2006)

Our first Golden was a stray that someone had dumped on our property, she was only eight weeks old. She was a mess, she had a severe skin rash, was filthy, full of oil, grease and completely terrified of everything. No one ever claimed her. We knew nothing about her breeding. Other than the allergy and a blown crutiate at the age of nine when she jumped off the deck. She was healthy up to the fourteen yrs we had her. When she was ten we got Millie for a companion for her. We did not know anything about clearances or BYB. Millie was very intelligent, but aggressive to a certain point. She was a good watch dog and good with kids cats and some other dogs. Her HD showed up at eight months of age. I took out a loan from my 401K to pay for the surgery. TPO surgery on both hips. Her insurance would not pay for hereditary conditions. It was a tough road to recovery but she never had another problem again with her hips. I called the breeder what I got was " I have not heard from anyone else that they had any problems Her father had all his clearances". Millie also developed food allergies at the age of five. Luckily a change of food and close monitering of what she ate put a stop to this problem. With work and patience, her disposition improved. One month before her ninth birthday cancer struck with no warning, six days after the diagnoses we released her from her pain. Your puppy might not have any problems then again it might. Our new girl Brie is two yrs old we just picked her up last Saturday. I have all her records the previous owner had, her vet is faxing the rest to my vet, up to this point no health issues. Her owner is relocating and cannot take her. After a home visit to meet us and Pearl, a call to our vet, Lisa her owner decided that we were a good match. Brie's CKC registered and was purchased at a pet shop. Yes I know that should have sent up all kinds of red flags. She is a typical golden smart, always smiling and gets along wonderfully with Pearl. She is crate trained, house broken and spayed. I would like to learn more about CKC. We are looking forward to a long happy ownership with Brie.


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Jumping into this discussion late. I hope the puppy has a long, healthy, and happy life with you. 

My first Golden was from a 1 time mating between a friend's two Goldens with only hip clearances. There were 12 pups in the litter and I've been able to keep tabs on them....My Sam lived to be 12.5 with no major health issues until the very end, his twin sister will be 15 in Aug and I believe Mom is still alive at 17. Dad went with the husband after a divorce, so I lost track of him. Of the litter, only 2 died early. 1 from cancer at age 8 and 1 who jumped his fence and was hit by a car and sadly died. The other pups all lived to be 11 or older. I do know that none needed surgery to correct dysplastic hips or elbows. I'm not advocating that clearances do not matter, they DO, but they are not a guarantee against illness or issues either.

That said, I did looks for clearances when it came time to get Ike. I wanted to better his odds at a long, long, happy, and healthy life. I'm hoping He'll be the World's Longest Lived Golden...aren't we all hoping for that? 

*I have VPI Insurance also. We carry a catastrophic policy (Superior) with a cancer rider for just under $300 a year.


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

I would look for another breeder and run as far away as I could! Trust me, we purchased our Golden from a breeder who didn't have any of this done and now we have a 8 month old Golden pup with severe hip dysplasia. We were very uneducated when we purchased our pup and didn't think all the 'checks' mattered....well let me tell you from personal experience it DOES matter...a lot! My pup will never have the active, normal life that he should all because of someone trying to cut corners and make some money. PLEASE LOOK ELSEWHERE!


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I understand how hard it is to walk away from $400. Does this breeder offer a guarantee? Not sure how she can without clearances.... I looked at the grandparents and beyond last night as least as hips go, and they are not that good. There is a LOT of "fair" hips. Now "fair" is passing but at the bottom. I have an HD dog. It is NOT an inexpensive venture. You may find an insurance that will help with the cost but how much? Teddi's hip replacement out the door was $4800, with several follow up visits, and a trip back every year for the rest of her life. She still has HD in her other hip, and has elbow dysplasia that I must manage. She is a VERY expensive dog in vet care, and supplements. Don't get me wrong I love her to DEATH! Would not give her up for anything. While she is fine right now, for the first year and a half at least of her life she was in pain or crated to no activity post op. I honestly do not know how long she will be "fine". I hope a long time because of what we do, but we will never know when the day will come she will start having problems again. Another person I met on another board has a 5 yr old dog with elbow problems so bad he feels he may have to euthanize. No clearances is a big issue. Sure you could get lucky, or not. 

Flip side and this does need to be said, two dog with excellent hips can produce an HD dog. Chances decrease a lot but it can still happen. 

What about references? Will she let you call and contact all other pup owners from previous litters of these two dogs? Can you call each and everyone, and ask them if they have any medical issues? 

I feel so bad for you. You want to do the right thing, and made a mistake (so did I) I think the deposit was a bit on the high side too. I recently went through a lab search and I am now embarking on a golden one, I think the highest deposit I ran into was $200, so far. 

I have VPI insurance on all 3 of my dogs. It did NOT cover Teddi's hip surgery at all. It will cover her annual follow ups IF the vet does not put hip dysplasia in the wording for the claim. Talk to to company that says it covers genetic issues. Your premiums could be astronomical, or they don't cover much. Seems to be the pattern I found. If you find one that does cover. Let me know, I am interested in learning about them. 

Ann


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

I would look for another breeder and run as far away as I could! Trust me, we purchased our Golden from a breeder who didn't have any of this done and now we have a 8 month old Golden pup with severe hip dysplasia. The surgery to fix this is $6000! We were very uneducated when we purchased our pup and didn't think all the 'checks' mattered....well let me tell you from personal experience it DOES matter...a lot! My pup will never have the active, normal life that he should all because of someone trying to cut corners and make some money. PLEASE LOOK ELSEWHERE! Good luck to you in your search for a REPUTABLE breeder. It makes all the difference in the world.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

erivera0165 said:


> Yeah I'm just going to accept it rather than regret it, it's not the pups fault it's mine and I'm going to love it no matter what...
> 
> I'll keep you guys posted on what happens...


I havent read to the end of the thread yet, but I can't really comprehend this fatalistic view. Having spent 3,000 dollars on elbow surgery for a 7 month old golden, I can say there's so much complexity to having a sick dog beyond the pricetag. What kind of a relationship will you have with this woman now that she's been publically lambasted anyway? Do you trust her to give these pups the best in socialization and nutrition. She is going to see it- the BYBs and Puppymill people tend to make an eventual appearnace on these threads. Please listen to the voices of experience, and choose a pup from a breeder who abides by the GRCA ethics. I'll even find you 3 good choices if you want!


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

I think what I'm going to do is just get insurance for major accidents and expensive surgeries and on top of put cash aside for shots/neutering/medication/food etc

she did give me references and I did talk to most of them and all of them have had no issues with HD as most were over a year old so let's hope that luck transfers to my litter


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

One thing to keep in mind is prevention. Things like good diet, not taking the pup jogging or overexerciseing, no jumping and possibly supplements should help prevent issues. Also keep the pup lean, not fat. The clearances are not a 100% promise that the pups will not have problems, and many of us have heard of HD in dogs who had parents who were clear....

Lana


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Here is a website that compares pet insurances 
http://www.petinsurancereview.com/

From what I have read is that Pet Plan covers hip dysplaysia. But you will want to double check for yourself. If the premium is low enough maybe also still do a small savings acct and use that for the meds and vet appts that might not be covered. 
Hopefully though you will not need it and your puppy will healthy. And you will share your pictures with us when you bring your puppy home.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Embrace and PetPlan USA are probably the two best for the insurance based on what I've read, and my research.

I've read so many "they would not pay for it" complaints about VPI that I never even considered them.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Gilmour and Milo are under the PetPlan USA Gold Plan (the most expensive one) with a $200 deductible and 100% (no co-pay) coverage. $20,000 yearly limit.

The premium for both together is $180 per quarter.



BeauShel said:


> Here is a website that compares pet insurances
> http://www.petinsurancereview.com/
> 
> From what I have read is that Pet Plan covers hip dysplaysia. But you will want to double check for yourself. If the premium is low enough maybe also still do a small savings acct and use that for the meds and vet appts that might not be covered.
> Hopefully though you will not need it and your puppy will healthy. And you will share your pictures with us when you bring your puppy home.


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

erivera0165 said:


> I think what I'm going to do is just get insurance for major accidents and expensive surgeries and on top of put cash aside for shots/neutering/medication/food etc
> 
> she did give me references and I did talk to most of them and all of them have had no issues with HD as most were over a year old so let's hope that luck transfers to my litter


Even if you have insurance to cover major expenses, it isn't going to cover your heartache if something was to go wrong with your pup. The recovery process from a hip/elbow surgery is a long one. There is nothing worse than thinking you are going to have a healthy, furry friend for a long time only to find out that he/she has a heridiatry problem.

I respect your decision, but after going through this myself I would strongly reccommend pushing harder to get your deposit back. Tell her that if she doesn't give you your deposit back, you will see her in small claims. The thought that she will have to drag this to small claims may be enough for her to reconsider and give you your refund back. It's not going to hurt to try. I know you are 'hoping' for the best, but that is what we all do who are uneducated about BYB. I never in my wildest dreams thought that we would have a PUP with hip problems. Just my honest opinion.


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

another thing that I was thinking...not trying to make any excuses but her dogs have no problems with their his/elbows and they are 4-6 years old so if they did have this deffect wouldnt it have showed by now? so this might mean that they are ok and if they were to have gotten xrays done they probably wuold have passed...because if they would have not passed then I'm sure they would've developed HD by now right? 

anyways when I posted this forum I didnt intend for people to bash me I was just wondering if some breeders actually thought like that

anyways I will visit the pup in about 4 weeks to pick one out and I will post pictures and also when I bring him home at 8

when I do go and visit and pick a pup out at 4 weeks are there things I should look for in the pup to make sure it's healthy?


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

erivera0165 said:


> another thing that I was thinking...not trying to make any excuses but her dogs have no problems with their his/elbows and they are 4-6 years old so if they did have this deffect wouldnt it have showed by now? so this might mean that they are ok and if they were to have gotten xrays done they probably wuold have passed...because if they would have not passed then I'm sure they would've developed HD by now right?
> 
> anyways when I posted this forum I didnt intend for people to bash me I was just wondering if some breeders actually thought like that
> 
> ...


Not necessarily- her dogs might have problems, why would she tell you if they did? She wants to sell her puppies to make $! She is irresponsibly breeding and obviously knows better because she knows of OFA and chooses not to utilize their registry and BE SURE that she produces sound, healthy puppies. As has been said before- a lot more goes into a breeding besides than the clearances. When I think of a golden, I think of a specific personality. A BYB doesn't likely discriminate and select a sire and dam with sound temperament, structure, and clearances.

I would check into the Embrace plan- it seems to cover HD, ED, and other hereditary conditions. I likely won't purchase pet insurance for my puppy that is coming from a reputable breeder. I will however, likely save monthly by putting $ away for possible emergencies. Both sire and dam have a long history of clearances and I feel comfortable with my decision. 

As I mentioned earlier- stop payment on the check if possible. If not, at least you are going into this with your eyes open and are preparing for it. I am anxious to hear about your puppy as it grows. No one begrudges a puppy from a BYB- they didn't ask to be born. They deserve love and a good home, too. Many of us didn't know better, Casey (age 11.5) was from a pet store. We obviously know better now, are learning from our expensive (and wonderful!! ) mistake. He is a terrific dog but has had hip, allergy, and other health problems that have cost my parents thousands of dollars. Anyway- I'll stop blabbering now! Good luck with the pup, I mean it!


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

erivera0165 said:


> another thing that I was thinking...not trying to make any excuses but her dogs have no problems with their his/elbows and they are 4-6 years old so if they did have this deffect wouldnt it have showed by now? so this might mean that they are ok and if they were to have gotten xrays done they probably wuold have passed...because if they would have not passed then I'm sure they would've developed HD by now right?


If you don't look, you won't find a problem. Very, very few pets have had their hips or elbows x-rayed. You can not just look at a given dog and know whether or not it has hip dysplasia. Individual dogs have different pain tolerances, hips that don't bother one dog will cripple another.



erivera0165 said:


> anyways when I posted this forum I didnt intend for people to bash me I was just wondering if some breeders actually thought like that
> 
> anyways I will visit the pup in about 4 weeks to pick one out and I will post pictures and also when I bring him home at 8


People are not bashing YOU, they are not impressed by the breeder you chose. This thread isn't just about you-it will remain on this site for months and years to come and hopefully it will help save another unsuspecting soul from making the same poor decision you did.



erivera0165 said:


> when I do go and visit and pick a pup out at 4 weeks are there things I should look for in the pup to make sure it's healthy?


Clearances on the parents, grandparents, great-grandparents. There is no way to know if a 4 week old (or 8 week old for that matter) is going to develop problems later.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

erivera0165 said:


> another thing that I was thinking...not trying to make any excuses but her dogs have no problems with their his/elbows and they are 4-6 years old so if they did have this deffect wouldnt it have showed by now? so this might mean that they are ok and if they were to have gotten xrays done they probably wuold have passed...because if they would have not passed then I'm sure they would've developed HD by now right?
> 
> anyways when I posted this forum I didnt intend for people to bash me I was just wondering if some breeders actually thought like that
> 
> ...


I apologize if you feel you are being bashed. I certainly don't think that was anyone's intention. I didn't realize when you posted your question that you had already made up your mind to get a puppy from this woman regardless. 

I'm very limited in my knowledge of HD and other genetic illnesses, but I know of a couple dysplastic dogs who show no external signs of HD. That's the reason dogs need to be screened. This would certainly be true with eye and heart problems as well. From what I've read, goldens are known to have a high pain tolerance - so the chance of seeing visible signs of any genetic issue would be less.

I will echo what others have said. I think you need to push harder to get your deposit back and start over. She may return it just to shut you up, you never know. There are so many people on here who have gone through such heartache from getting a puppy from a questionable breeder, with some even losing their dogs at a young age. Sure, it might work out fine, but I think you would want to give yourself the best chance you can at a healthy pup. I just can't see how that is better to say "oh well". If you already had the pup that would be different, but you don't.


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## Pete G (Nov 23, 2009)

I hate to make this my first post on the forum, but I feel compelled to respond.

ERivera, I think you are making a huge mistake. And you are doing a major disservice to yourself, the GR community, the purebred dog owning community at large, and generations of future dogs by simply rolling over and accepting your fate.

Breeders who do not get clearances on their dogs should not be in business. Period. As others have said, this is just flat-out irresponsible. Goldens are incredibly prone to hip dysplasia, and for you not to demand your deposit back makes you part of the problem.

Furthermore, if you can't afford to kiss your $400 deposit goodbye, you really need to ask yourself if you can afford to own an animal whose first minor trip to the ER could easily exceed that amount. And if you don't have the cajones to face the breeder and demand your money back, I would speculate that you may not have the inner strength to demand proper behavior from your dog. To put it bluntly, you sound like an awful pushover, and if you can't stand up to this breeder, what are you going to do when your 75 lb. bundle of joy walks all over you?

It is understandable that you feel that somebody needs to take this puppy, so it might as well be you. But you need to understand that this mentality is a huge part of what keeps backyard breeders and puppy mills in business.

In general, I think it's admirable that you are a man who makes good on his deals. But not in this case. Not at all. For everybody's sake, I think you need to stand up for yourself, or take your $400 lump and move on. To do anything else would make you guilty of contributing to irresponsible breeding. It takes buyers to keep sellers in business. Do you really want to be part of the problem?


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

erivera welcome to the GRF! :wavey:

As you are aware from this thread there are a LOT of here that are VERY passionate about this wonderful breed and believe that EVERY breeder is responsible for the well being of the breed. So by not doing clearances this breeder is taking a VERY haphazard approach to breeding in most of our minds. 
Something for you to ponder. I am sure someone already pointed this out but the parents of dam have no clearances listed in OFA's database and the sire's parents one has hips and elbows the other just hips in OFA's database. So this breeder is blatantly lying to you. 
You may lose your deposit but why not let it go. You are willing to pay for insurance in the event that the pup has problems why not improve your odds that won't happen by going to a breeder who will do all the right things and be honest with you.
Whatever you decide I wish you and your family luck with your new pup! :wavey:


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## Solas Goldens (Nov 10, 2007)

Well I'll put in my 2 cents.When we got Jake we knew nothing about Breeders. certifications or anything else.By the time we went to pick him up and I had done enough that research Some red flags went up, but at that point I was looking at this cute little fluff ball and I couldn't leave him.Unfortunately at 4 years old we are dealing with severe hip dysplasia.We got what we paid for, and I love him, but am feeling sad about having to deal with the eventuality that he will be unable to walk.If the breeder isn't willing to take the time to do health clearances, it is just a cop out. Anyone that is trying to do the right thing when breeding will take the time and spend the money.
As far as the limited and full registration goes. I breed occasionally and will only let my puppies go on Limited registration, which means they can't be bred. I do this for a few reasons.The biggest reason, is I don't want to contribute the pet over population,by handing a puppy over to some one that is going to breed just to make money, and doesn't care about where their puppies end up, or if they are following ethical breeding practices.There are a lot of unscrupulous people out there, and they will lie and tell you what you want to hear just so that they can get a dog.This may sound paranoid, but I have had it happen many times, and if you talk to someone long enough the inconsistencies in their story will come out and the red flags will go up.I put a lot of time and effort into a litter of puppies and I would rather end up keeping one rather than give it to the wrong person.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

erivera0165 said:


> I think what I'm going to do is just get insurance for major accidents and expensive surgeries and on top of put cash aside for shots/neutering/medication/food etc
> 
> she did give me references and I did talk to most of them and all of them have had no issues with HD as most were over a year old so let's hope that luck transfers to my litter


That doesn't guarantee at all that your pup will be exempt from having problems. Plus, there are more issues than just HD and ED. Goldens are especially prone to several types of cancers, thyroid problems, and heart murmurs and dogs who come from irresponsible breeders who don't do the necessary health screening and line research are even more prone to these extremely costly medical problems. I'm really not trying to bash you and I'm sure that no one else is either, but we just feel very strongly when it comes to irresponsible backyard breeders. You have been given so much good advice from experienced owners who have gone through what you may be about to go through and they are genuinely trying to help you make the right decision, but it seems like you're pretty set on getting this puppy anyway. I wish you the best of luck. I really do.


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## 3SweetGoldens (Feb 28, 2007)

Just my two cents worth as well, but I really agree with what Hank and so many others are saying. If it were myself, given all the suggestions and advice from other members here on the forum, I too would be willing to give up my deposit, if it was not returned by the breeder. There are just too many sincere, ethical breeders out there, and at this point, you aren't attached to a certain puppy from this litter. Getting pet insurance, a fund you save for health problems, etc. will NOT make up for the heartache that may happen with uncertified dogs. Of course, things can happen with any litter of even certified parents....but your chances are dramatically reduced. I would really think twice on this, as you are looking at a loving companion for hopefully many, many years. For me, why not buy a puppy from a breeder who completely stands behind her breedings? 
I wish you the best of luck....but please think about this very seriously, before you commit to this breeder.:no:


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

erivera0165 said:


> I'm sure you guys are all right and I'm completely at fault for not doing my research but unfortunately she will not return the deposit and I can not afford to lose $400. I'm going to try to be optomistic and think that alot families I know own rescue dogs that are not OFA certified and have had no issues. Lets hope I'm not unlucky


I can't believe your deposit was so high. My deposit was only $100 for a $1200 price from a reputable, show breeder.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

IF he (sorry about that) was getting this VERY SAME PUPPY from a rescue, because the breeder had dumped them there, we would all be thrilled, supportive and thanking him for saving this puppy. Him not buying this pup is not going to put the breeder out of business, in fact she would make more if he doesn't take the puppy. Him telling everyone (friends, family, vets, groomer. etc) how he was forced to take this puppy without proper clearances might do some damage to her business. I know it's not good to support BYBs and pet stores and such. But there has to be a better way than turning our backs are those that are here now. What is supposed to happen to all the puppies that aren't perfect? Oh yeah, I forgot , that's what rescue is for.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

The breeder appears to have lied to you, which makes you doubly able to get that deposit back. It's time to play hardball.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Claire's Friend said:


> IF he (sorry about that) was getting this VERY SAME PUPPY from a rescue, because the breeder had dumped them there, we would all be thrilled, supportive and thanking him for saving this puppy. Him not buying this pup is not going to put the breeder out of business, in fact she would make more if he doesn't take the puppy. Him telling everyone (friends, family, vets, groomer. etc) how he was forced to take this puppy without proper clearances might do some damage to her business. I know it's not good to support BYBs and pet stores and such. But there has to be a better way than turning our backs are those that are here now. What is supposed to happen to all the puppies that aren't perfect? Oh yeah, I forgot , that's what rescue is for.


But that situation (when someone gets a pup from a rescue) IS different - at least it is to me. If he was getting the puppy from her for free that would also be different, IMO. I think the only places one should get a dog are from a rescue/shelter or a reputable breeder. I agree that the bad word of mouth can hurt the breeder, but giving her money will also help her continue breeding irresponsibly. Not being able to sell her puppies may discourage her from breeding again - or (thinking positively) encourage her to get the clearances done on her dogs.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Claire's Friend said:


> IF he (sorry about that) was getting this VERY SAME PUPPY from a rescue, because the breeder had dumped them there, we would all be thrilled, supportive and thanking him for saving this puppy. Him not buying this pup is not going to put the breeder out of business, in fact she would make more if he doesn't take the puppy. Him telling everyone (friends, family, vets, groomer. etc) how he was forced to take this puppy without proper clearances might do some damage to her business. I know it's not good to support BYBs and pet stores and such. But there has to be a better way than turning our backs are those that are here now. What is supposed to happen to all the puppies that aren't perfect? Oh yeah, I forgot , that's what rescue is for.


So undertaking this thought line why should ANYONE bother with clearances, breeders or buyers, because someone will buy the puppy anyway?? Sorry but your line of thought on this is a little off, but I do understand where your heart is.

Any honestly no one is FORCING anyone to take this puppy. It is totally up to the purchaser, can not blame the breeder/seller especially when the buyer has the facts BEFORE the transaction is finalized.


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

Claire, thank you for that!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

erivera0165 said:


> Claire, thank you for that!
> 
> Once I take the pup home I will make sure to give her the link to this discussion so maybe she can either make sure for her next litter she does what she is supposed to do or just stop breeding all together, which I doubt she will do but hopefully it will make her realize how people feel


Maybe link her to the grca code of ethics instead. I think that would be much more informative for her.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

http://www.grca.org/pdf/all_about/codeofethics.pdf


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I agree with Claire. This woman will make MORE MONEY if the guy doesn't buy the puppy. 

And no, I don't think that line of reasoning means no one should bother with clearances.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Claire's Friend said:


> IF he (sorry about that) was getting this VERY SAME PUPPY from a rescue, because the breeder had dumped them there, we would all be thrilled, supportive and thanking him for saving this puppy. Him not buying this pup is not going to put the breeder out of business, in fact she would make more if he doesn't take the puppy. Him telling everyone (friends, family, vets, groomer. etc) how he was forced to take this puppy without proper clearances might do some damage to her business. I know it's not good to support BYBs and pet stores and such. But there has to be a better way than turning our backs are those that are here now. What is supposed to happen to all the puppies that aren't perfect? Oh yeah, I forgot , that's what rescue is for.


Except this time his money is going to produce more puppies who don't have as good a shot at health and happiness. That's the big difference between rescuing and buying from a bad breeder.


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## Pete G (Nov 23, 2009)

Well, erivera, I guess you answered my question.

Congratulations! You're now a part of the problem.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Maybe link her to the grca code of ethics instead. I think that would be much more informative for her.



I really don't think linking this breeder to any of the links will help. The breeder is well aware of what is the proper and responsible thing to do. They have found it easier to make excuses for not doing those things. They are praying on the lack of knowledge of the prospective buyers and the "cuteness" of the Golden puppy to sell their merchandise, and that is all the pup is to them is merchandise nothing more.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I agree with Claire. This woman will make MORE MONEY if the guy doesn't buy the puppy.
> 
> And no, I don't think that line of reasoning means no one should bother with clearances.



So you honestly think it is best to "support" breeders such as this just because they took a person's deposit under false pretenses?


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Pete G said:


> I hate to make this my first post on the forum, but I feel compelled to respond.
> 
> ERivera, I think you are making a huge mistake. And you are doing a major disservice to yourself, the GR community, the purebred dog owning community at large, and generations of future dogs by simply rolling over and accepting your fate.
> 
> ...


I think this is a bit overdone. The poster has stated a number of times he is going for the puppy. Move the discussion to the point of supporting BYB or puppy mills or whatever, but leave the man be. I hope he still wants to come back to the forum and post about the pup, and that we all will be able to help if necessary, without the " I told you so" idea...


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

I am sorry this may be a little to close to home for me. Any of you following Morgan's story know ,that I detest bad breeders. I would make it my life's goal to stop them. But I am too busy cleaning up their messes at the time. I don't want to argue with anybody. I 'll stop now.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

No, it's not good to support this stupid woman. However, the money is paid and if he cuts his losses now, she will then sell the puppy AGAIN and have gained an additional $400!

What do you propose we do with such puppies?


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## Pete G (Nov 23, 2009)

inge said:


> I think this is a bit overdone. The poster has stated a number of times he is going for the puppy. Move the discussion to the point of supporting BYB or puppy mills or whatever, but leave the man be. I hope he still wants to come back to the forum and post about the pup, and that we all will be able to help if necessary, without the " I told you so" idea...


It's not about "I told you so". And he still has the opportunity to do the right thing. 

Just because he has said repeatedly that he is going to do the wrong thing, doesn't mean that those who care about the breed [and dogs, in general] should just let him off the hook.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> No, it's not good to support this stupid woman. However, the money is paid and if he cuts his losses now, she will then sell the puppy AGAIN and have gained an additional $400!
> 
> What do you propose we do with such puppies?



I propose we continue to try to educate folks before they get into such a situation so the breeders such as this have no market to sell their pups.
I propose we explain to folks that some times it is better to cut their loses before their hearts are broken.
I propose that when someone finds themselves in such a situation we suggest they contact their local BBB and register a complaint. You might be surprised how quickly folks will change their tune when they get a call from the BBB. 
I propose it is never better to just continue down an obvious wrong path just because we have invested $400.
I propose it is never better to support a breeder such as this. NEVER!!
And lastly I propose that we let the breeder worry about what to do with such pups. If we ALL do that breeders such as this will go away.


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

Well I obviously have learned my lesson


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## MILLIESMOM (Aug 13, 2006)

You want to be VERY careful how you tell people or post anywhere about this breeder. Another person did this and was sued by the breeder. No one is bashing, you came to us asking our opinion and help. You are getting answers in a wide range of ways. I would push this breeder for my money back, threaten to take her to small claims court. If you have not signed a contract you should be able to retain your deposit. As an owner of a dog with HD from a BYB, (it can happen with dogs with clearances too, though chances are very slim) I have gone through the surgery with my dog. I could not leave her that way she was too active and was not a couch potato. The surgery was very painful for her, and she never forgot the pain when she went back to the place she had the surgery. She would sit in the middle of the waiting room ,cower, shake and whine, even though they were very good to her. You want to have a healthy puppy that you can enjoy playing ball or frisbee with, and he or she can enjoy life also. Please reconsider your decision on going ahead with this purchase.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Folks 

First, I am assuming here that the Pup is coming home, and there is no way around that. With that said...

We all know what should have happened. I've been there too. We all started somewhere, and a lot of us got it wrong the first time. Maybe even second or third time.

Arguing about whether he should buy this puppy is a dead horse. He can't get the deposit back, and cannot afford to toss it away. What's done is done. He'll do better next time.

So let's move on 

Now it's time to support the pup. It's not his fault.

We are past the "oops" phase. We are now in the "It takes a village" phase.

At this point I have some suggestions:



Go see your Pup often. Weekly if possible. Make sure he is well marked so you know who he is. Note any birthmarks, treat spots on the tongue, etc... to help with this in the future. He will change though as he grows  I prefer the colored nail polish method of identification. Colored collars can be moved around too much.
When you visit, make sure the Pup is being socialized well. He should be playing, fighting, rough-housing etc... with the rest of his litter the same as his littermates.
Make sure he looks like he is getting proper feeding from Mom.
If you see anything of a health concern, bring it up.
Do not take the pup from the Mom/Litter before 8 weeks, and optimally no later than 9 or 10 weeks. He needs 8 weeks to properly socialize and learn bite inhibition from his littermates. A Golden is mouthy enough as a pup  Any later than 9 or 10 weeks, and you are missing out on that extremely critical period of 10-15 weeks (thereabouts) where they develop personality and other important traits. You want him your way, not someone elses.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

NuttinButGoldens said:


> Folks
> 
> We all know what should have happened. I've been there too. We all started somewhere, and a lot of us got it wrong the first time. Maybe even second or third time.
> 
> ...


 
Ditto this.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I am not a breeder, do not have the knowledge to be one, but do love dogs, especially goldens, i have had three, first one bought from a byb, her name was jamie, loved her so much, beautifull red girl, at 6 months old , her hips needed fixed, we got them done, found out several in litter had same problems, . kopper my golden now, is 7 yrs. old, had tpol, done on knee, they also found he has a bad hip, spencer my boy i lost, abt. 10 wks ago, lived to 12 yrs., 5 months, never any health problems at all, bought from a good breeder, who does all clearences, be ready to spend the money to fix your pup, if he or she has problems, i know they are so very cute, but this is a lifetime choice you have to make.


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## buckeyegoldenmom (Oct 5, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> I propose we continue to try to educate folks before they get into such a situation so the breeders such as this have no market to sell their pups.
> I propose we explain to folks that some times it is better to cut their loses before their hearts are broken.
> I propose that when someone finds themselves in such a situation we suggest they contact their local BBB and register a complaint. You might be surprised how quickly folks will change their tune when they get a call from the BBB.
> I propose it is never better to just continue down an obvious wrong path just because we have invested $400.
> ...



I agree with Hank 100%....that is why we continue to try and educate the public. And it can be so frustrating.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

NuttinButGoldens said:


> Folks
> 
> First, I am assuming here that the Pup is coming home, and there is no way around that. With that said...
> 
> ...


Well seeing as the pup will not be coming home for 4 weeks I do not feel iit has to be a done deal. There is still time to attempt to put pressure on to get back the deposit.




NuttinButGoldens said:


> At this point I have some suggestions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And if the breeder uses colored collars, the litter is sleeping when he visits, sees something that might be a health concern, and the litter goes home at 7 weeks which has been the optimum age pups have gone home for decades then you think he might get back his deposit? Or should he tthen cut his loses and walk away? Or does he take he pup anyway because if he does not someone else will?


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

The OP has made his decision, so rather than continue to bash him and criticize his decision, how about we help him give his puppy the best life possible? NuttinButGoldens' post is a great start. I hope this forum hasn't driven the OP away, as has happened so many times in the past.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Jackson'sMom said:


> The OP has made his decision, so rather than continue to bash him and criticize his decision, how about we help him give his puppy the best life possible? NuttinButGoldens' post is a great start. I hope this forum hasn't driven the OP away, as has happened so many times in the past.



Honestly not bashing. :no: Really trying to educate is some small way. If the OP goes through with the purchase of this pup anyone that has been on this forum for any length of time knows I will do everything to help with any questions they might have. And NEVER have I ever said "I told you so" to anyone in a situation similar to this. But when other GRF members make comments like "If he doesn't buy the pup, someone else will" or "If he doesn't buy the pup it will end up in rescue" I feel the NEED to retort.

Edwin as I stated in one of my earlier posts to this thread I wish you good luck with whatever decision you make and where ever your puppy comes from I wish it wonderful health. I mean this sincerely.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

_And NEVER have I ever said "I told you so" to anyone in a situation similar to this._ 

It was a general remark, Hank, certainly not intended to insult you or anyone else, for that matter....


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

inge said:


> _And NEVER have I ever said "I told you so" to anyone in a situation similar to this._
> 
> It was a general remark, Hank, certainly not intended to insult you or anyone else, for that matter....



Oh trust me I know that and it was not meant that way either. It too was a general remark! :wavey:


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> So undertaking this thought line why should ANYONE bother with clearances, breeders or buyers, because someone will buy the puppy anyway?? Sorry but your line of thought on this is a little off, but I do understand where your heart is.
> 
> Any honestly no one is FORCING anyone to take this puppy. It is totally up to the purchaser, can not blame the breeder/seller especially when the buyer has the facts BEFORE the transaction is finalized.


Such a well-written comment. . . Buying a pup is far different from rescuing one. . . When someone presents the forum with a breeding in which clearances are lacking, the response is the same month after month, year after year: hearts aching for the dogs themselves, a desire to protect the naive buyer, the anger at the irresponsible or profit-driven breeder. . . You see the same response to about 100 BYBs and puppy mills brought up here over the years, and even to breeders in a grey area. It's good that GRF has experienced breeders who bother trying to educate the public when they do not have to take the time- acting as moral compass on behalf of dogs and their well-intentioned humans. Buying a dog from a breeder who doesnt to clearances by accident is different than doing it with open-eyes, and different than rescuing a pup since it sends a green light to the breeder to keep on breeding.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

erivera0165 said:


> Well I obviously have learned my lesson
> 
> If you guys feel strong enough about this then you can email the breeder and let her know what you think...I've heard the same thing over 100 times and it's not going to change my decision...I'm not doing this to purposely support BYB's but I did it because I didn't know any better, I'm not a bad person for doing what I'm doing, I just simply made a mistake that by the looks of things alot of people here have made.


I typically stay away from any debate regarding BYBs and reputable breeders as like you, I did not set out to purposely support BYBs but at the time, I didn't know any better...now I do. All 4 of my Goldens have been from families who owned both parents and bred them so essentially they're from BYBs. Right now it doesn't matter... I made the decision to buy them the way they were and I will love them that way until they take their last breath. I realize I could face some health issues and I'm prepared for that (financially - never emotionally). So far I have been fortunate that none of my dogs have had any major health issues (ear infection being the worst). But I look at them and I think to myself, what if I hadn't gotten them....would they be in a good home, would they be loved, would they have a big cushy pillow to sleep on, would they have bedtime snacks every night? Sure, maybe they shouldn't have been born but they were and they also needed someone to love them unconditionally...and I am so lucky that I was that person. I couldn't ask for better dogs....they are my life and truly a joy to have. Next time around (if there is one), I will do things differently. 

You've made your choice to pursue this puppy and like some of the other posters, I sincerely hope things go well with him/her. Perhaps you will do things differently if there is another Golden in your future.

I realize I have probably just made some enemies but I just had to put my two cents in as well.

Good luck with your new baby!!!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

People do learn...I did!


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## eeneymeanymineymo (Oct 5, 2009)

Wow ~ 24 hours later, a lot has transpired!!

To the OP ~ I will not beat you up for taking this puppy. EVERYONE has made valid points and it does boil down to what the OP decides. We will support you. EDUCATION EDUCATION EDUCATION........it is unfortunate that this breeder is breeding without hip & elbow clearances but guess what - she will continue to do whatever she wants and John Q. Public will continue to buy until we can educate everyone out there about these types of breeders. That is a huge feat but my dream someday is that no one will buy from these breeders who breed underage bitches & sires with no clearances and then sell them for $ 2500 to the unsuspecting new puppy owner who thinks they are getting a rare white golden from english pedigrees that have no health issues <<<joking>>!!!

To the OP: you came here looking for input, we gave it and now you need to do what is best for your puppy by getting health insurance - most definitely! When looking at the puppies (not sure if you get to choose your pup or they choose for you) ~ look for a puppy who stands four square, with it's rear toes pointing forward - not outwards. No guarantee but it is a start. Also when looking at the puppy from the front, make sure the elbows are tucked in ( not flapping outwards) when standing and moving. Watch the gait of the puppy when moving. You wouldn't want a puppy who is dragging it's rear legs.

Good luck to you and chances are 50/50......just like everything else in life. I would love to tell you that you should kiss that $ 400 goodbye and find a breeder who does do all the clearances but I know that it is not my right. You do what you feel is appropriate at this point. I will back you for the sake of the poor puppy who has no choice in any of this. THAT is the saddest part of all of this. I know the puppy will be loved by you. That is evident.


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## Pete G (Nov 23, 2009)

Edwin, I'm sorry if I come off as harsh, but I just think you have no idea what you're getting into. I hadn't noticed before that you posted the website of the breeder. I just had a look, and quite honestly, it looks like a train wreck, and it goes far beyond lack of hip clearances.

What I see on the website are dogs of questionable physical appearance with thin, unhealthy looking coats, chained to a fence in the dirt and mud. I see an AKC "Blood Line" [no breeder worth a crap would use this term] that is impossible to read. I see a pack of Marlboro reds and a prescription bottle sitting out on the table just asking to be snatched.

What I don't see is anything about the pedigrees of the dogs. No information on any health clearances or veterinary care other than worming. I see no indication that this breeder has any standards or methods to his breeding, or engages them in any activity at all. I see no mention of socialization other than that the pups are raised in their home.

In short, this breeder probably shouldn't even OWN dogs, let alone breed and sell them. And if you think your $400 deposit is a lot, just wait and see what the vet bills are going to look like!

If you haven't gotten by now that you're about to do a very unethical thing, you probably never will, so I won't pester you anymore. Others may wish you well, but quite honestly, you just anger me. 

I do wish your puppy well, though, as I do all puppies. Hopefully, you'll be better at caring for your dog than you are at picking him, but with as little as you understand about dogs, I wouldn't bet the farm on it.


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## Augie's Mom (Sep 28, 2007)

When you go to purchase pet insurance read the fine print. Pet insurance doesn't work like people health insurance and many carriers exclude coverage for anything considered hereditary, i.e. hip and elbow dysplasia, sas, etc.

Wishing you all the best and much happiness with your new pup.


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Pete G said:


> Hopefully, you'll be better at caring for your dog than you are at picking him, but with as little as you understand about dogs, I wouldn't bet the farm on it.


Was this comment really necessary? This is the second time you have personally attacked the OP.


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## buckeyegoldenmom (Oct 5, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Such a well-written comment. . . Buying a pup is far different from rescuing one. . . When someone presents the forum with a breeding in which clearances are lacking, the response is the same month after month, year after year: hearts aching for the dogs themselves, a desire to protect the naive buyer, the anger at the irresponsible or profit-driven breeder. . . You see the same response to about 100 BYBs and puppy mills brought up here over the years, and even to breeders in a grey area. It's good that GRF has experienced breeders who bother trying to educate the public when they do not have to take the time- acting as moral compass on behalf of dogs and their well-intentioned humans. Buying a dog from a breeder who doesnt to clearances by accident is different than doing it with open-eyes, and different than rescuing a pup since it sends a green light to the breeder to keep on breeding.


Again very good points made. If not taken by the OP, I hope by others who will read this thread.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

C's Mom said:


> Was this comment really necessary? This is the second time you have personally attacked the OP.


No kidding. How unnecessary, and last time I checked, against the rules of this forum.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

BTW, though, I agree with the rest of the post. Haven't looked at the breeder's website but it sounds grotesque.


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## Pete G (Nov 23, 2009)

If I've broken a forum rule, I apologize to the forum and will curb my tongue in the future. 

Were my comments necessary? Yes, I believe they were. Absolutely.

If my blunt manner is unacceptable here, again, I'm sorry.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

Pete G said:


> Hopefully, you'll be better at caring for your dog than you are at picking him, but with as little as you understand about dogs, I wouldn't bet the farm on it.


I'm sorry, but that comment was WAY out of line and completely uncalled for. As much as I disagree with the decision that the OP has made to go ahead and purchase a puppy from this so-called breeder even after being strongly urged not to, I find it totally unnecessary to make personal attacks. The last time I checked, that was against the forum rules and a few members have been banned in the past for making comments similar to yours.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

OK, while I don't agree with personally insulting the OP, I do agree with everything else you said. I just looked at the site, and wow. Is English this person's first language? Judging by her butchery of it, I certainly hope not. She is impressive in her stupidity, and yes. The dogs look like ****.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I have been personally attacked here- even stalked and had a member solicit another member JUST to start a thread with no intention other than slandering me. That person got off without even a warning as far as I know. So, I wouldn't worry. Just try to avoid it in the future.


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## Pete G (Nov 23, 2009)

Edwin, my apologies to you, as well, for the ad hominem remarks. They weren't intended to be hurtful, but rather to give you a loud wake-up call -- a cyber scruff-shake, if you will.


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## Fidele (Sep 17, 2008)

*erivera0165 -* Welcome to GRF! I wish you all the luck and happiness a golden pup can bring you! And I do hope you will post with other questions you may have - there really is a wealth of information to be found here - just acept that some forum folks (often the most knowlegable) are really passionate with their thoughts and one sometimes does feel "bashed" (which doesn't change the fact that they know what they're talking about).

You asked about pet insurance. I have VPI for Cedar. I have been very pleased with their responses and friendly/helpful phone reps. I like the idea of putting aside some money each month for care, but think you might not be able to set aside enough for something major. I lost my previous golden, Belle, to lymphoma when she was about 6 1/2 - if I had put aside $100/month it would have helped with her treatment bills, but I still would have had a huge bill - which I am hopeful insurance will help with, should I (God forbid) need it.

Enjoy that puppy breath! I'm jealous!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I don't agree with attacking the OP personally, but I do absolutely see the point in continuing to push him to try to recover his deposit and pick a different breeder. Maybe he made his mind up, but that doesn't mean he made the right decision. He needs to make a good faith effort to recover that deposit, for all the reasons Hank and Jill and others have raises


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## Goldnbear (Dec 28, 2009)

I think it is time to close this thread...everyone keeps going round and round on this. As much as we don't agree with it or even like it, the OP has decided to get this puppy. Breeder isn't a good one, OP hopefully won't suffer from it and puppy will be great. The End.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

I think before this thread is closed (if that's the inevitable conclusion), there's one more question that needs to be asked:

What, exactly, about this breeder seemed to "meet all the good breeder criteria" prior to the discussion in this thread? 

As other members have cruised through the website, they seem to have turned up a large number of red flags. This isn't intended to bash you or imply anything about the research you did prior... but rather to help keep others who may read this thread from making the same mistake somewhere down the line and to allow those who spend their time educating others to address more specific methods used to deceive puppy buyers. 

Julie and Jersey


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

alright so I was wrong, and I wasnt 100% sure what made a good breeder. But I thought she was very helpful and was willing to take pictures of her house so I can see where the pups were raised and I thought that she provided the pedigree was cool <---but like I said I now know that nothing of that matters. LESSON LEARNED!


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

Jersey's Mom said:


> I think before this thread is closed (if that's the inevitable conclusion), there's one more question that needs to be asked:
> 
> What, exactly, about this breeder seemed to "meet all the good breeder criteria" prior to the discussion in this thread?
> 
> ...


Yep, that was my thought earlier. I'd like to hear from the OP and get feedback on what he thought were the good points about this breeder. What were the other "good breeder criteria" that were met? It would be educational.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Good luck with your new puppy. Make sure you post pictures, and please continue to post, after what you have been through, any other posts should be Disneyland!


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

erivera0165 said:


> alright so I was wrong, and I wasnt 100% sure what made a good breeder. But I thought she was very helpful and was willing to take pictures of her house so I can see where the pups were raised and I thought that she provided the pedigree was cool <---but like I said I now know that nothing of that matters. LESSON LEARNED!


No need to be defensive, and certainly no reason to shout. I explained why I asked the question. You've made your decision, and regardless of how anyone here feels about it everyone has wished you and your puppy the best. Now let's see if we can learn something from this... namely what John Q. Public (in this case, you) sees (or in this case, saw) as the hallmarks of a good breeder. Those of us who through our experiences and/or this forum have become intimately familiar with breeding practices see the red flags in a breeder such as this almost too easily... which puts us in a poor position to understand how others are misled. In your case, was it just the pictures of the home and the fact that the dogs are AKC? Or were there other claims/actions that swayed you? To be specific, the question is how exactly is that that an unscrupulous liar such as this pulls the wool over people's eyes and convinces them that they care about anything more than the money? The more we know, the more people we can help turn away from BYBs such as this, and the more we can do to protect this breed. 

Julie and Jersey


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I think there is alot of information on the forum to steer people to a good breeder Thru the puppy buyers fact checker. Different threads in the breeder section. If he had come to us before the fact, as soon as the comments had been posted in the thread, he would have walked away. But since the nonrefundable deposit was put down and the member has chosen to take the pup, this whole thread will help anyone coming here to look at this "breeder" in the future. 

He came to us after the fact. From what he has said, he tried to get his deposit back but the breeder refuses. So unless he chooses to fight her and probably loss, what is left of any relationship he has with her, nothing. 

We can go back and forth with him but the matter is settled with him. He is going to get the puppy, so pushing the issues will only drive him away. And if something happens down the road with the puppy (praying it doesnt) he will not come back when he needs us the most.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Ditto, Carol. I also don't think he was being defensive, but internet speak can be tricky.


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

does anyone know of a way of deleting my comments or maybe this threat all together? Reason being is that I did post the breeders website on here not knowing it was illegal (I'm only 20). Someone contacted the breeder and she read this thread and is now going to get her dogs OFA certified and I really would not like to get sued for slander over this, that is the last thing I want right now.

so if I can some how delete where I slander her or myabe just delete this thread that would be great?


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

We do not delete discussion posts but we do at request close and lock posts so as to end all further discussion on a matter. We will lock this post for you.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Just to let you know it is not illegal to post the name of a breeder on a public website. She has posted her information out there on the web herself for everyone to see and to make their own mind up. 

But the thread has been closed per your request. Good luck with your new puppy.


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