# Refusing to comply with commands



## khrios (May 5, 2010)

Miss Sadie decided today that she was not going to perform any sit, down, go to bed, wait...none of it. She looked at me like I was speaking Greek.

In the old days of training, I would have given a correction, or physically guided her to perform.

Now, using positive training methods, I don't know what do!

Please help, she has become a 7 year old, 87 lb, teenager....


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

She is 7 years old? If she has known these commands her entire life, get her to the vet and have her hearing checked, thyroid & tick panels done and possibly check for soreness etc.

If she is new to the commands, look back to when she first started learning them. If is has been somewhere around 5-7 weeks, it is a normal learning stage where to her you might as well be speaking greek - but she will pass through this phase in a few days to a week. If you are not in the learning plateau phase, take her back to kindergarten  that is back up a few steps and review.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

How often do you train her?

Those old dogs get sloppy if you aren't reminding them time and again and really making it worth their while to do what you want? 

At our house we kinda do the nothing-in-life-is-free. Meaning that the dogs do not get any treats, toys, supper... without being asked to do something for it. They never ever just get treats or whatnot just for being cute. 

I do agree with Sharon that if you are training a little every day and didn't just give her these commands out of the blue, she might not be feeling well.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Sunrise is dead on the money here. If these are commands she's done well for a long time, then the answer is probably health-related and not really about training at all.

If they're newer commands, then you've hit a natural stage in training. Step back and really treat her like she doesn't understand the command or that she'll be rewarded for obeying it. Typically, things will begin to re-click quickly. In the meantime, avoid giving commands that will be blown off so you don't weaken the pre-existing habits you've already built. You want to take her back through the desired pattern with rewards so she re-learns, even more deeply, that obedience always happens and that it feels good.


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## Casey and Samson's Mom (Sep 24, 2011)

I would also have her checked by a vet before assuming that she is blowing you off, especially if it persists more than a day or so. She may be hurting someplace, especially if sits/downs are not happening.


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## Maverick James (Feb 27, 2012)

I'll take a little different approach because you said she is a 7 year old teenager.

Did you recently deny her use of the car, not let her go on a date, tell her she couldn't talk on the phone, tell her to clean her room or basically do/tell her anything that may have hurt her feelings.

Our last golden had very sensitive feelings and if we did something that hurt his feelings, he would put you on ignore to punish you and make you feel guilty. To get him to snap out of it, we always had to tell him we were sorry and then do something we knew he couldn't resist like go for a walk. 

I know I may sound a little wacky, but with the personalities goldens can develop, you never know.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

If I remember correctly Sadie is fairly new to you? and you are starting on a new 'type' of training for you. She maybe needs more time to settle in. Could be she is just confused, may not understand your 'cues; or you are trying to train too much all at once or just too often. Training should be done in short intervals 10 - 15 minutes, especially if the dog is in a new situation, and she needs to learn to generalize it. If she has been trained with 'correction based' training in the past, she may be a little hesitant to 'guess and try for' what you want for fear of getting corrected for it. 
When using positive reinforcement the trick to begin with is to use high value rewards, something she gets only when training - keep them solely for those times. When training a new behavior, (lure and reward), reward every correct response for a few days, then vary the reinforcement rate and later on substitute 'life rewards'.
To answer your question- your response to non-compliance is to withhold the reward, teach her a 'no reward' marker such as 'wrong' or 'try again' which 'tells' her that she can still earn her reward when she responds correctly.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

^^^ Totally second Charliethree. 

When we brought our Arthur home he had been trained with luring stuff. Always luring. Never trained without a piece of food in front of his face. Something we do not do with our dogs as it's a bad crutch. The way he was trained created really sloppy sits and other behaviors (he wouldn't obey a command if he knew we did not have food on our person).

We had to start right back at square one and retrain him properly.


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## khrios (May 5, 2010)

Sunrise said:


> She is 7 years old? If she has known these commands her entire life, get her to the vet and have her hearing checked, thyroid & tick panels done and possibly check for soreness etc.
> 
> If she is new to the commands, look back to when she first started learning them. If is has been somewhere around 5-7 weeks, it is a normal learning stage where to her you might as well be speaking greek - but she will pass through this phase in a few days to a week. If you are not in the learning plateau phase, take her back to kindergarten  that is back up a few steps and review.


 
Sadie has been in our home since February 3, 2012. She did not know any commands when she came to us. Her human parents were elderly, and did not train her. They did love her, and it shows in how she trusts me.

It has been around 5 to 7 weeks since we started training. She is learning commands, and I am learning how to teach a dog using positive reinforcement, treats, etc. So, it is all new to both of us.


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## khrios (May 5, 2010)

Megora said:


> How often do you train her?
> 
> Those old dogs get sloppy if you aren't reminding them time and again and really making it worth their while to do what you want?
> 
> ...


 
I am training a little every day, and we started a CGC class last Saturday. She did fine. Then Sunday came, and she just stood there, looking at me , play bowing, not wanting to do anything else...

See, but I knew that she knew what to do, because on Saturday, she did well. So, I'm thinking, Miss Sadie is just acting like a TEENAGER!


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## khrios (May 5, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> Sunrise is dead on the money here. If these are commands she's done well for a long time, then the answer is probably health-related and not really about training at all.
> 
> If they're newer commands, then you've hit a natural stage in training. Step back and really treat her like she doesn't understand the command or that she'll be rewarded for obeying it. Typically, things will begin to re-click quickly. In the meantime, avoid giving commands that will be blown off so you don't weaken the pre-existing habits you've already built. You want to take her back through the desired pattern with rewards so she re-learns, even more deeply, that obedience always happens and that it feels good.


 
So, I should go back and reteach her the commands as if they were brand new...such as luring to sit, capturing a "go to bed", etc...not naming the commands...then naming them, then progressing in duration, difficulty and distance?


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## khrios (May 5, 2010)

Maverick James said:


> I'll take a little different approach because you said she is a 7 year old teenager.
> 
> Did you recently deny her use of the car, not let her go on a date, tell her she couldn't talk on the phone, tell her to clean her room or basically do/tell her anything that may have hurt her feelings.
> 
> ...


Too funny!  I do believe they are sensitive. Maybe a walk before training will get her in the right frame of mind...


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## khrios (May 5, 2010)

Charliethree said:


> If I remember correctly Sadie is fairly new to you? and you are starting on a new 'type' of training for you. She maybe needs more time to settle in. Could be she is just confused, may not understand your 'cues; or you are trying to train too much all at once or just too often. Training should be done in short intervals 10 - 15 minutes, especially if the dog is in a new situation, and she needs to learn to generalize it. If she has been trained with 'correction based' training in the past, she may be a little hesitant to 'guess and try for' what you want for fear of getting corrected for it.
> When using positive reinforcement the trick to begin with is to use high value rewards, something she gets only when training - keep them solely for those times. When training a new behavior, (lure and reward), reward every correct response for a few days, then vary the reinforcement rate and later on substitute 'life rewards'.
> To answer your question- your response to non-compliance is to withhold the reward, teach her a 'no reward' marker such as 'wrong' or 'try again' which 'tells' her that she can still earn her reward when she responds correctly.


I get it. On to teach her a 'no reward' marker.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Wait her out, and keep your criteria high. Have a high value treat, but she doesnt earn it until she answers your command to your standards.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Personally I don't like waiting my dogs out. If they are confused I don't want to leave them in a state of confusion, and if they are just choosing not to I don't want them to think they have that choice. I want an immediate response to my commands, not after they've thought about it some. So if I don't get an immediate response I will help them out by physically guiding them into what I want them to do. Praise and repeat the command. When they respond immediately on their own the get a big party of praise and whatever treat or toy I might choose to use. Otherwise I will help them out again. I don't think it's "negative", I think it's just explaining exactly what I want to them. I don't like leaving any kind of grey area in my training, I want my dog to know exactly what I expect of them.


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## khrios (May 5, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> Wait her out, and keep your criteria high. Have a high value treat, but she doesnt earn it until she answers your command to your standards.


 
So, I give a command, she ignores it, and I just wait for her to perform...having high value treat as reward.

Waiting is hard! Do you say anything while you wait? Do you make eye contact? How does she know I am waiting for the correct answer?

And what if she offers the wrong behavior, such as sitting, when I said down? Do I wait too?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I wouldn't lure. It's too easy to teach the dog only to obey when you're holding a treat. If that's not your current problem, you could try it, but I'd try to restart the commands with something other than a lure.

You could, for example, give her a few treats in a row with "good girl" to get her engagement, and then see if that jogs her memory when you move to commands again.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

khrios said:


> So, I give a command, she ignores it, and I just wait for her to perform...having high value treat as reward.
> 
> Waiting is hard! Do you say anything while you wait? Do you make eye contact? How does she know I am waiting for the correct answer?
> 
> And what if she offers the wrong behavior, such as sitting, when I said down? Do I wait too?


If you give a command and she ignores it or does the wrong response, tell her 'wrong' or 'try again' in a normal tone, that is her 'cue' that she needs to try again and then wait for as long as it takes. Once she obeys - jackpot! give her several treats in a row and get excited!! The first few 'wait outs' seem to take forever but before long there won't be any waiting at all.


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## khrios (May 5, 2010)

Awesome! I think I got it.


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