# Anyone hear of Oceans Breeze golden in Arlington VT? Name changed to HeidiWay Goldens



## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

A friend referred us to this breeder, Oceans Breeze in Arlington VT

They seem to be new at it? and have limited akc dogs. When searching their name on k9data and also the ofa site I'm not finding much. the breeders names are Sharon Gratton or Patricia McKee. 

Their current litters mom name is Apple. Not sure who the sire is. I'm assuming this is a backyard breeder? If they do breed with all clearances then I'll move forward. I've asked for info but have no response yet...Was just wondering if anyone on this site has any info on them or any dogs from their kennel


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

This was posted with their last litter. 

https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co...94-looking-reputable-breeder-new-england.html


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## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

ok. just heard from the owner. they do not have OFA's on the parents b/c they don't " believe" in them. Went on to say 1 dog they had, had their X-rays sent in 2x for hips, 1 came back good the other came back fail. So they think OFA's are unreliable

Also told me how 90% of hip dysplasia is owner related from food and too much exercise? I would not be able to live with myself knowing we have a dog with parents where the dice was rolled...& if something ended up happening I would be kicking myself.

With OFA's being such simple and cost efficient tests, WHY would breeders NOT do them??


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

tuckerkeys said:


> With OFA's being such simple and cost efficient tests, WHY would breeders NOT do them??


Look, in the population of Goldens with generation after generation of hip clearances from OFA, devastating hip dysplasia is VERY RARE. You may have a dog come back borderline or mild but rare is the 10 month old puppy needing $3000 hip surgery. This is the population of show dogs or performance/hunting-bred Goldens from responsible breeders. Peer pressure is VERY HIGH to ALWAYS clear dogs before breeding. We have GREATLY REDUCED the incidence of severe hip dysplasia.

In the population of backyard bred newspaper dogs, the incidences of severe or quality of life reducing hip dysplasia is MUCH HIGHER. If they don't test they simply don't know what they have. It is HARDER to find a dog that will pass. 

So why don't breeders like this do OFAs? #1 the cost...it's at least $500 per dog to get it done. And you have to do it before you ever get a dime from a sold puppy. 
#2 : It's hard to see your pet fail something. It's a big bitter pill to swallow. It dashes all of your plans of breeding them. It's much easier to blame an institution that has evaluated hundreds of thousands of dogs than to cull the dogs in your breeding program and put your money where your mouth is. IOW : It's ignorance and apathy. Two driving forces of all backyard breeding.


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

They “don’t believe” in OFA clearances? Get outta town! We are talking lame excuses - and not responsible breeding. You should keep looking.


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## GoldenMom999 (Apr 14, 2017)

This is a strictly for profit breeder. No clearances. Excuses for not doing the right thing. Run away. Poor Apple...bred before she was two...then bred back 6 months later. Breaks my heart. This breeder is not reputable. Possibly the dog who failed the hip test was her male...


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

tuckerkeys said:


> ok. just heard from the owner. they do not have OFA's on the parents b/c they don't " believe" in them. Went on to say 1 dog they had, had their X-rays sent in 2x for hips, 1 came back good the other came back fail. So they think OFA's are unreliable
> 
> Also told me how 90% of hip dysplasia is owner related from food and too much exercise? I would not be able to live with myself knowing we have a dog with parents where the dice was rolled...& if something ended up happening I would be kicking myself.
> 
> With OFA's being such simple and cost efficient tests, WHY would breeders NOT do them??



If I'm not mistaken, OFA won't re-evaluate hips or elbows. Once you fail, you fail. So right off the bat, I'm not sure she is being honest.


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## GoldenMom999 (Apr 14, 2017)

Sweet Girl said:


> If I'm not mistaken, OFA won't re-evaluate hips or elbows. Once you fail, you fail. So right off the bat, I'm not sure she is being honest.


They will...very often positioning can mean the difference between a fair and a good...or a single hip being rated as grade 1 while the other hip is fine. It is common to wait three months for a new panel. Then do a new set of xrays and send them in. Also sometimes dogs need a little more time to mature than two years and their hips can pass if they are a little bit older. But a for-profit operation that doesn't even wait until the dog is two to breed? Forget about hip clearances.

But I don't think it's her dog she is talking about...as she has no hip clearances on any of them! If you look at who her females are from...my guess is that is where she heard the story to justify breeding with no clearances.

Home


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Sweet Girl said:


> If I'm not mistaken, OFA won't re-evaluate hips or elbows. Once you fail, you fail. So right off the bat, I'm not sure she is being honest.


Incorrect. You can re-submit for evaluation and a possibly better rating.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

GoldenMom999 said:


> They will...very often positioning can mean the difference between a fair and a good...or a single hip being rated as grade 1 while the other hip is fine. It is common to wait three months for a new panel. Then do a new set of xrays and send them in. Also sometimes dogs need a little more time to mature than two years and their hips can pass if they are a little bit older. But a for-profit operation that doesn't even wait until the dog is two to breed? Forget about hip clearances.
> 
> But I don't think it's her dog she is talking about...as she has no hip clearances on any of them! If you look at who her females are from...my guess is that is where she heard the story to justify breeding with no clearances.
> 
> Home





K9-Design said:


> Incorrect. You can re-submit for evaluation and a possibly better rating.



Thanks for the clarification! :smile2:


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## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

Hi. OP. here. Also wanted to mention she said since she lives in Vermont, there are NO good or qualified OFA vets in our area....We're 1.5 hrs from Albany NY. She did say both parents had their " prelims" on hips and passed. Don't know what this is. She also went on to tell me she's never had any issues as far back as 6 generations.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

tuckerkeys said:


> Hi. OP. here. Also wanted to mention she said since she lives in Vermont, there are NO good or qualified OFA vets in our area....We're 1.5 hrs from Albany NY. She did say both parents had their " prelims" on hips and passed. Don't know what this is. She also went on to tell me she's never had any issues as far back as 6 generations.


Did she also say she had a bridge for sale? >

Any vet with X-ray capability can submit hip and elbow x-rays. Considering x-ray is a common diagnostic tool for all kinds of veterinary issues, I call BS on that. And that whole never had issues, how do you know if you are not checking? Dysplasia, especially mild cases don’t necessarily cause lameness and sometimes not untill older when people might blame it on old age.


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## GoldenMom999 (Apr 14, 2017)

tuckerkeys said:


> Hi. OP. here. Also wanted to mention she said since she lives in Vermont, there are NO good or qualified OFA vets in our area....We're 1.5 hrs from Albany NY. She did say both parents had their " prelims" on hips and passed. Don't know what this is. She also went on to tell me she's never had any issues as far back as 6 generations.


Prelims (x-rays) are done before a dog turns 2. They are used sometimes by show people who want to determine if they should pursue a Championship on a young dog. Or possibly because a responsible breeder wants to repeat a breeding before the first litter is two, so a few from the 1st litter get prelims. They are also used by backyard breeders to justify breeding a dog earlier than 2, which is the age when you can get a hip certification from the OFA. 

No problems? I would consider Apple's Grandfather failing OFAs a problem.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Butternut Hill Golden's is in North Central Vermont and doesn't appear to have issues getting their dogs certifications done properly. It is a breeder I looked at September '17 but only sells to people in New England (I thought odd). Oceans Breeze is a for profit breeder and is just trying to skirt around doing clearances because they know their dogs are off low quality breedings.

Lol don't believe in OFA hip clearances... This breeder needs to be blacklisted.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

26 weeks ago this breeder surfaced on a golden retriever litter listing page (one that requires the minimum clearances in order for litters to be listed) seeking a girl for her son and of course was looking for full registration. At the time she had a couple of litters in the works or on the ground--but none would supposedly produce the dock diver she wanted. It was pointed out back then about the lacking of clearances and lack of mentorship available. She said she was working w/ a better breeder & was getting clearances...26 weeks ago. This is someone who knows better & chooses not to do better in hopes that her stories will convince you that she is above board...sadly it seems to be a shtick that is working.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

tuckerkeys said:


> Hi. OP. here. Also wanted to mention she said since she lives in Vermont, there are NO good or qualified OFA vets in our area....We're 1.5 hrs from Albany NY. She did say both parents had their " prelims" on hips and passed. Don't know what this is. She also went on to tell me she's never had any issues as far back as 6 generations.



Facts To Ponder :

Any vet can take and submit xrays to OFA. There is no certification.

There are 126 dogs in a puppy's six generation pedigree. I assure you, she doesn't even know the NAME of all 126 dogs in her pups' pedigrees, much less their hip status. 

Don't fall for any of her baloney. Don't give her your hard earned money.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Randomness regarding the 1.5 hours from Albany, NY.... 

Gather the implication is you are saying the breeder is too far away to make the trip out to get OFA's - assuming she doesn't like the local vets for some reason?

When my puppy is old enough (in about 1.5 years), I'm planning on driving the hour south to a specific veterinarian to get the OFA's done. 2nd choice vet is about 45 minutes away. 

Other people within the state are driving 2-3 hours to bring their dogs to my first choice vet. Heck, I've heard she gets some people driving about 7 hours to bring their dogs in from out of state. 

If most of dog show people are driving 2+ hours to go to dog shows. And other people I know drive 2+ hours to do fun matches and other training activities with their dogs. They don't begrudge driving the same distance to get to a good vet they can trust to get OFA's done.


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## ChrisFromOC (Sep 19, 2018)

tuckerkeys said:


> Hi. OP. here. Also wanted to mention she said since she lives in Vermont, there are NO good or qualified OFA vets in our area....We're 1.5 hrs from Albany NY. She did say both parents had their " prelims" on hips and passed. Don't know what this is. She also went on to tell me she's never had any issues as far back as 6 generations.


When I started looking for a new puppy several months ago, I fortunately found this forum and learned a lot about what I should look for to find a quality breeder. Living in So Cal there were many options that could help us find a great puppy. 

The one thing that strikes me, however, is that many of the breeders out there who are not following the GRCA rules are charging as much or more than the reputable breeders who are working hard to better the breed. The reason the less ethical or knowledgeable breeders charge this much is because there are still plenty of people who decide on a whim to get a puppy, do a quick google search to find a local breeder, and make their decision based on how cute the puppies look without knowing anything else.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Pedigree: Oceans Breeze Little Trickster Loki and all the sibs- this pedigree just kills me. It is 5 generations of (on the top half) a perfect example of trust being given where it was not deserved. The bottom half is just a wreck. On another thread someone asked about how the breed is hurt by using stud dog on bitch both owned by same and on all the girls there- this pedigree is an example of how that damage happens.


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## Nikkidog (Jul 23, 2019)

We have had a Golden from them for 4years he is the best dog I have ever had. I get nothing but compliments from Vets and trainers on how well breed this dog is. I have had his hips and elbows OFA’d and both came back good. He has competed in Agility and Barn Hunt. We also Dockdive with him. I am on the list for a puppy from their next litter. I have noticed they are doing OFA’s along with heart and eyes. They even test for CNL. They do deworming at 2,4,6,& 8 weeks, they also vaccinat and microchip all puppies. They are the only breeders I know that have their puppies examed at 6 weeks and then at 8 weeks by their vet . They are not backyard breeders or puppymill. These dogs are taken care of and very much loved. They are now working with a breeder that is helping them with their questions. I would recommend these women to anyone who would love a wonderful Golden retriever. Also one of you said they are in it for the money. With the bag full of dog toys, collar and leash and other dog goodies they send you home with money is not an issue and they donate 2 puppies a year to organizations that train service dogs.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

They have a litter that was born this month who's sire and dam still don't have the core 4 health certifications. Another litter out of Apple Cider, the dam mentioned previously in this thread. 

https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2032684

https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2032683


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Nikkidog said:


> We have had a Golden from them for 4years he is the best dog I have ever had. I get nothing but compliments from Vets and trainers on how well breed this dog is. I have had his hips and elbows OFA’d and both came back good. He has competed in Agility and Barn Hunt. We also Dockdive with him. I am on the list for a puppy from their next litter. I have noticed they are doing OFA’s along with heart and eyes. They even test for CNL. They do deworming at 2,4,6,& 8 weeks, they also vaccinat and microchip all puppies. They are the only breeders I know that have their puppies examed at 6 weeks and then at 8 weeks by their vet . They are not backyard breeders or puppymill. These dogs are taken care of and very much loved. They are now working with a breeder that is helping them with their questions. I would recommend these women to anyone who would love a wonderful Golden retriever. Also one of you said they are in it for the money. With the bag full of dog toys, collar and leash and other dog goodies they send you home with money is not an issue and they donate 2 puppies a year to organizations that train service dogs.


What is your dog's registered name? 
Every reasonable breeder deworms, or they have to clean up worms qnd deal with unthrifty puppies they can't sell. It costs almost nothing to deworm and microchip. 
As posted above, they are still breeding dogs who do not have minimal clearances anyone who cares about the breed itself would do before reproducing from them. 
I WOULD like to know your dog's registered name, so I can verify that anything they made passed his clearances.... there are eight Ocean's Breeze dogs with OFA pages, NONE of them have the core 4 clearances. None. Only one has both hips and elbows- https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1827838 and he may be yours, but he is lacking heart and eyes.


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## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

I also want to add that oceans breeze has a new website, below...... When they FIRST put it out about a week ago, in all their info, it said their dogs have all their OFA's. Which lead me to start checking, thinking that maybe they started to get on board with this. 

In fact they do not have the core 4 OFA's on their breeding dogs yet and funny enough have REMOVED this from their website. Only now saying you can check their dogs on k9 data.

If anyone associated with oceans breeze is reading this, PLEASE!! Get the core 4 OFA's at the VERY LEAST! It says they are retired vet techs. So, I'm sure they think they know better. However selling puppies to families where you think they will be alright is just terrible. Most buying families probably have no idea at the dice that's being rolled and are just wrapped up in the puppy cuteness.....Not so cute when at 1 year hip dysplasia is detected. Or a heart murmur that will not go away.



Ocean Breeze Golden Retrievers


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## Nikkidog (Jul 23, 2019)

You seem to have a problem with these people. I saw Apple’s and Indy’s OFA results and both have passed. You all seem to be assuming things . Loki is neutered and they have a couple others that are spayed and neutered. They where looking for a dog for their son that was from Dockdiving lines and it was a male not a female. I set up their website for them and nothing was mentioned about OFA’s I have been with these ladies for a few years now and know they are not in it for the money. It seems like you are saying things that are not true and starting trouble. I have not mentioned this to them because you seem to be a very unhappy person who likes to start trouble. Maybe someone should look into your life and see what you do that others don’t approve of. You are all a bunch of nasty people who have no clue about these women and how awesome their dogs are. 
OCEANS BREEZE GOLDEN RETRIEVERS ARE AWESOME DOGS.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Nikkidog said:


> You seem to have a problem with these people. I saw Apple’s and Indy’s OFA results and both have passed. You all seem to be assuming things . Loki is neutered and they have a couple others that are spayed and neutered. They where looking for a dog for their son that was from Dockdiving lines and it was a male not a female. I set up their website for them and nothing was mentioned about OFA’s I have been with these ladies for a few years now and know they are not in it for the money. It seems like you are saying things that are not true and starting trouble. I have not mentioned this to them because you seem to be a very unhappy person who likes to start trouble. Maybe someone should look into your life and see what you do that others don’t approve of. You are all a bunch of nasty people who have no clue about these women and how awesome their dogs are.
> OCEANS BREEZE GOLDEN RETRIEVERS ARE AWESOME DOGS.


HEre are Apple's and Indy's OFA links:
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2032684
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2032683

They do not have full clearances. Or for that matter, ANY OFA results other than a DNA test done this year. 
It's easy enough to be in compliance with the suggested health tests, but this breeder does not do that. We are a bunch of people who help puppy buyers see through whatever you saw to believe there are full health assessments- not nasty people.... but somewhere in your mind you know this. I personally find it nasty to post untruths on a website, about the most important thing to puppy buyers- health.


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## GoldenMom999 (Apr 14, 2017)

Nikkidog said:


> You seem to have a problem with these people. I saw Apple’s and Indy’s OFA results and both have passed. You all seem to be assuming things . Loki is neutered and they have a couple others that are spayed and neutered. They where looking for a dog for their son that was from Dockdiving lines and it was a male not a female. I set up their website for them and nothing was mentioned about OFA’s I have been with these ladies for a few years now and know they are not in it for the money. It seems like you are saying things that are not true and starting trouble. I have not mentioned this to them because you seem to be a very unhappy person who likes to start trouble. Maybe someone should look into your life and see what you do that others don’t approve of. You are all a bunch of nasty people who have no clue about these women and how awesome their dogs are.
> OCEANS BREEZE GOLDEN RETRIEVERS ARE AWESOME DOGS.


I believe someone has mentioned it to them...they no longer allow public access to their Facebook page. Just to be clear...Indy and Apple have no clearances beyond NCL. You may not understand what dog's are supposed to have. Take a look at Indy's father and mother...they have full clearances. 
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?quicksearch=SR79153101
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?quicksearch=SR94266002

Apple had puppies at 17 months of age and again at 23 months of age...no health clearances. This is what people who are breeding dogs for money do. Here is how she feels about OFA in general...publicly from FB.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Wonder what she was responding to? 
You can't send the same rad in twice- they don't take 'second' times w same rad. What was 'good score'? No practitioner can 'give a rating' just their own opinion, but if they are not an orthopedic vet it's unlikely their opinion is any better than yours or mine. 
Doesn't really matter, there will always be foolish people to believe untruths. And there is always a market for a puppy. And it's not very difficult to follow a best practices method, but people who do not usually do not because they don't care for more than their pocketbook.


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## Nikkidog (Jul 23, 2019)

Well you all don’t seem to know much. Their vet is a board certified orthopedic. I just called Latham NY and got the price for eyes and heart exams on the dogs and I am going to help them set those up. Most likely will be around the end of the month since they do have jobs.and I will tell them you all suggested their vet is incompetent and need those X-rays. Also they have had a private Facebook page for 5 years now because they don’t want nasty people on it. 
But you have no clue. These ladies put a lot of money in their dogs and taking care of them. Do you have the vet check your puppies at 6 & 8 weeks. They have brought a puppy to a specialist when the vet thought there was a problem at 6 weeks. They even have the vet do the vaccinations where most breeders do them themselves. You all like to tear people down instead of building them up. Maybe that is why the dog world is so nasty. 
I bet Tuckerkeys was refused a puppy by them so she/he wanted to start some trouble. These ladies have very good intentions and I can tell you they care very much.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

^^^ This is one of the many reasons why some bad breeders manage to stay in business.


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## Nikkidog (Jul 23, 2019)

I bet you are perfect also. I called and made appointments for me to take 2 of their dogs for eye and heart tests since they cannot get time off from work since they have been dealing with a sick child. I am helping out as much as I can. But of course you all have nasty remarks to make. Well done all of you for being what I see in the dog world snotty people who really don’t care about anything but what their dogs can do in the ring. And don’t tell me you don’t make money off selling your dogs . If you tell me you don’t well I know you are lying


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## Nikkidog (Jul 23, 2019)

I can tell you for a fact they did not say there are no qualified vets in the area. I know for a fact her vet is board certified and since you started such a headhunt on them I have just booked OFA’s on their dogs and sent them to a specialist in Latham for heart and eyes. You are a nasty person who likes to start trouble. You are just as bad as a troll on Facebook. What happened they refuse to sell you a dog. 
I am sure you are not a perfect person and there are always learning curves in everything someone does. You have a group of people coming down on some wonderful women. Nobody knows anything about what they do for their dogs and it seems like you are a local person. If you knew anything they also have a very ill child they take a lot of time running to doctor appointments. Maybe you should just move on since I bet even after all this is done you will find something else to come down on them about


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Well, Nikkidog, since you are taking over the clearances, be sure you go to a board cert cardiologist ( pet vet is not acceptable) for heart, and an opthalmologist for eyes- and send those in to OFA for verification. No matter why you are motivated to do the clearances for them, I am glad you are going to do them and I am sure since you are motivated to make their breeding program in compliance with best practices you will also send them in to OFA. 
All it takes to avoid criticism by peers is to
follow the rules- get yearly eyes, cardiologist heart, hips and elbows and get all of them on OFA. Then no one would take issue with anything.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Eyes need to be done every year. 

You don't need to take time off work in order to get them done. Most people get them done on the weekends at dog shows. If you have a sick kid, odds are likely you are not at work and can find time for a 5 minute visit to an eye specialist. 

Ditto hearts - which only need to be done once after 12 months. You can do them on the weekend at shows. Or you can schedule a very quick visit at a cardiologist.

Me personally - I prefer making appointments at the offices. There's no waiting in lines. It's showing up, getting it done, and heading home. 

My 13 month old baby boy pup has gotten his eyes done (and yes, I have them posted on OFA). His heart will be checked closer to 24 months. 

Hips and elbows will be checked at or after 24 months (not before). They can be done at a regular vet. Vet will do the rads and submit them to OFA for me. If they clear, they will be posted on the OFA database. There is no "opt out" for posting passing finals on OFA. They will all be posted.

Not for a single moment have I considered breeding my 13 month old prior to full clearances. Aside from the fact that his breeder would MURDER me, there's also the fact that I have no way of knowing that his hips and elbows are OK. 

I could get them checked now? Yeah, but that's meaningless since I still would NOT breed a dog on prelims. It's a waste of money getting prelims done. 

Technically speaking only people who do prelims for legit reasons are those who have a finished champion and they want to decide if they want to spend BIG BUCKS sending that dogs around the country being shown repeatedly to hopefully stack up enough breed wins to make that dog big and famous forever.  

Likewise, sometimes breeders take a peek because they want to place a nonpassing dog early enough into a pet home for that dog to have a smooth transition. It's not about giving the breeder the option to breed the dog the next time she comes into season. 

Some bad breeders out there lie their faces off or worse, they themselves have picked and selected different lies that they choose to build their houses on. 

One of those would be the very typically mudslinging at OFA when their dog fails their clearances. These are also people who shop hip or elbow xrays around and attempt to get a specialist to sign off on the xrays.

If you have somebody badmouthing OFA as a reason for not submitting hips and elbows to OFA - that's a sign that they had a dog fail clearances.

I'm sorry if you think people are being rude and insensitive. But there's enough people out there who explain how things work with getting full clearances on dogs prior to breeding them. They explain over and over. It's all over this forum. It's repeated to infinity. 

Some breeders out there know that their puppy people are completely out of the loop on all those things. It makes it easier to tell them all kinds of things. I think it's crappy because breeders don't have to live long term with the pups they produce. The owners do. And the owners are the ones who fall head over heals in love with their dogs and don't want anything bad to be said about the puppies or where they came from. My personal thing is a breeder is asking a lot of her pet people if she's making them promote her and defend sloppy breeding practices. Ditto making her puppy people get clearances on dogs that she should have done! Are you going to be getting eye clearances done every year for her? 

Excuses really don't go anywhere because let's be honest - you produce puppies? That means a lot of time off work. And it means you don't have much time to do a lot of things - particularly in the first week or three when the pups are very vulnerable to injury or failing. 

Somebody who regularly produces litters of puppies and still manages to claim they can't take time off work for 5 minute vet visits with their dogs for eyes and heart clearances. That is a festering kind of lie.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> Look, in the population of Goldens with generation after generation of hip clearances from OFA, devastating hip dysplasia is VERY RARE. You may have a dog come back borderline or mild but rare is the 10 month old puppy needing $3000 hip surgery. This is the population of show dogs or performance/hunting-bred Goldens from responsible breeders. Peer pressure is VERY HIGH to ALWAYS clear dogs before breeding. We have GREATLY REDUCED the incidence of severe hip dysplasia.
> 
> In the population of backyard bred newspaper dogs, the incidences of severe or quality of life reducing hip dysplasia is MUCH HIGHER. If they don't test they simply don't know what they have. It is HARDER to find a dog that will pass.
> 
> ...


Because Anney said it all here.


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## Nikkidog (Jul 23, 2019)

So you assume they can get to the vet in 5 minutes. And no I am not taking over for them. As I said their child has suddenly become sick and I am helping and they do as much work from home as they can but they do have to show up. You all are on your high horse thinking you are better then everyone else. I am helping them out. I know they are working with a breeder that is very knowledgeable. 
You all are the first ones to throw a stone aren’t you. I am telling you to leave them alone give them at least a month or 2 to get their dogs done. And I also looked at what you said about Apple she has had a litter in December and Just had one in July getting a year off. She is 3 years old not 17 months and 23 months. 
I just talked to Sharon and she has actually made the appointments already for the hip and elbows in 2 weeks after her son’s surgery which I did not know was happening on Monday. She has helpers like myself that let her go to work when she has puppies. 
So stop bashing her for awhile and let her get these done.


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## Nikkidog (Jul 23, 2019)

What shows have heart and eyes tested? You tell me. I have been to plenty and I have never heard of any in our area. Yes the big city ones maybe. Sharon said she will go by what her vet tells her they have the degree not some ladies on a site. She said her vet is helping her along with 2 very knowledgeable Golden retriever breeders and they are understanding the help that these women need with their child


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

http://pdf.infodog.com/prm/762/prm762.pdf

^^^ This show is about an hour away from Arlington, Vt. 

Cost would be $80 per dog to get both eyes and heart checked.

These shows are all over the place - big show circuits typically are the ones which have the clinics. 

Btw, high horse.  

Currently speaking, my mom has had a tough year due a knee injury and other health problems (heart). This means I'm doing everything she normally does. That's running errands, driving non-driving siblings back and forth to work, cooking, cleaning, and as needed taking my mom to her appointments and sitting in the hospital with her. I'm not going into details about the charming state of the house after 2 days without power, but it's a lot of really disgusting work that needs to be done today on a day when I need to be giving dogs baths and grooming the pup in prep for a show this coming weekend.

I also work full time and need to be out of town 1 week every month for my job.

When she went in to have knee surgery, I was there at the hospital all day.  And the following week, I was driving 40 minutes every day to sit with her at the hospital. Or making special trips to sneak her favorite coffee in for her.

This has not affected my ability to show my dogs, train my dogs at home, take them to dog classes, take the dogs hiking and swimming and so on. And none of the stuff I mentioned above that I'm doing for my mom affected my ability to drive 1 hour + to get eye certs done for my 2 dogs. It will not affect my ability to drive the 30 minutes to get the heart clearance done for my pup. Nor will it affect my ability to drive the 1 hour plus to get hips and elbows done.

People have to stop making excuses to get their buddies to rally around them. If you want to get stuff done, you find time to get it done. You shouldn't be stringing puppy owners along with lies until it reaches a point where you've been caught publicly enough to do stuff finally.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Not high horsing- but really- a couple months to 'get the dogs done'? 
This is not their first litter. If a person starts doing anything, anything at all, shouldn't they learn how to do that thing the best possible way? A couple months isn't going to solve the issues here, the mindset is one of doing as little as possible and that's hard to change. Excuses, excuses.


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## GoldenMom999 (Apr 14, 2017)

Nikkidog…..Just a few facts for you (or Sharon),
1. Regarding Duck. Do you plan to breed him under the age of two like Indy? I wonder if his responsible breeder follows this forum? 
2. The picture is a PUBLIC comment on FB… from 1 week ago. If you can travel hours to go to Dock Diving lessons or events where you are known to try to promote and sell puppies, you can take your breeding animals to health clinics on the weekends. Irresponsible breeding is your choice.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

A reminder everyone- please keep the Forum rules in mind when posting and be respectful to one another.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Just want to put this out there, I live very close to Arlington VT. There are many great vets around the area, and a handful of great golden breeders in the area who do things the right way. It would be very easy to network with these breeders to ask for help or advice if Ocean Breeze wants to get serious about the CoE and obtaining clearances.


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## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

Hi. No, I was not refused a dog. It never got that far as I was asking questions and my spidey sense went up when the parents did not have OFA's. In fact, HERE is the EXACT RESPONSE from oceans breeze I got when asking why no OFA's....... 

******** Both have had their pre lims on hips and passed . We do not do OFA's they are not dependable . We have never had any problems with our dogs with hips,elbows , eyes or hearts and as far back as 6 generations their have never been an issue. But I understand if that is what you require. I have just done so much research and found that these tests really don't guarantee anything. We sent in x-rays to OFA same dog ,same x-rays one passed and one failed. this was the same dog. So that made me think how accurate are they. It also has been proven hips, and elbows are 90% of how the puppy is taken care of and feed in the first year of his /her life. Our dogs are all performance dogs that can jump and run lure courses with no problems. If they had any hip/elbow problems they would not be able to do these things without issues


SO - THIS is the exact response from oceans breeze breeder I got when thinking about getting 1 of their puppies. I came here because THAT is what is wrong with some breeders. Telling people this, some who are DESPERATE! For a family member and will believe what they say. I have had goldens my entree life and know what to look for. What is very sad is if they are going to breed their bitches 2x a year, they should get OFA's so they at least know the product they are sending out into the world, at the very least, can't come back and haunt them.....If 1 of the pups has an issue in the future then they can at least solidly stand by their tests and say they did the best in researching the best pairings.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

That response is all BS. They do Prelims and tell you they passed but yet they tell you they aren't doing OFA because they aren't reliable lol. From my understand about OFA, you can't send the same X-Rays in to be evaluated a second time, they will refuse the submission, so based on that, they are lying to you. They are making that up to cover up the fact they don't want to do the clearances and "sell" you their puppy.


These are living animals, there is no guarantee with health clearances, just stacking the odds in your favor that the puppies from dogs with clearances, should not suffer from those ailments.


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## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

I would also like to add that on their " puppy application " they directly reference limited AKC registration on their puppies. To regular Joe dog buyer, they have no idea what this means.... 

*****6.We sell our puppies on a limited AKC registration unless other arrangements are discussed. Limited Registration means you can enter your dogs in AKC events like obedience or agility but for conformation events you can't enter. Offspring of a limited registration dog male or female can't be registered with AKC. You understand you would be buying the puppy for a family pet and would not be able to breed the dog

WHY can't they breed their dog? because the AKC has taken the stance that LIMITED AKC puppies aren't quality breeding stock. they aren't being bread to better the breed. 

******Puppies can be assigned full or limited registration by the breeder. Limited registration is for puppies that the breeder does not consider breeding quality; if they are bred, their puppies cannot be registered. The individual puppy is not registered unless the registration form is filled out and mailed to AKC.


With OFA's being SO easy to obtain on these breeding dogs...IF they are no issues as they say going back at least 6 generations.... PLEASE! get at least the core 4's! Listen. Stuff happens with dogs. Even the best offspring can develop HUGE issues. But as a reputable breeder, if a dog comes back with issues at the very least you can stand proud knowing you had no idea that it would be the result.....You did all the proper testing. Nature just won out. .


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Sometimes nature wins. It just is.

And they are not being honest- they do prelims to be able to have a remote idea of what they are looking @ hip/elbow wise but since they don't stay on OFA (and depending on when sent in and whether initialed to release fails) and may never be there to start with. Their dogs don't have agility or lure titles, so that may or may not be true. And these are the kind of 'breeders' no good breeder would want having a full reg puppy- so how in the world would that discussion even take place? 
And ditto on the repeated rads. didn't happen.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Plus - just want to add - no responsible breeder will ever mislead a potential buyer into thinking that OFA clearances 100% guarantees a puppy will not get hip or elbow dysplasia. In fact, the OFA publishes the rates of risk when you breed two cleared dogs, one clear one not, two affected, etc. There are no 100% guarantees when it comes to living creatures. But it does help to improve the chances of getting a healthy dog and it does help the breed overall if dogs with hip or elbow problems are not allowed to reproduce. 

So the argument that "we've done research on OFA and found it doesn't guarantee anything" is no big shocker to anyone (just read the OFA site) - but is not a valid argument for not getting clearances done.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Random curious question I have to ask - especially of Sunfire people on this forum. 

What I can see is these breeders were originally involved with the B's at Sunfire, and they got their first breeding dog (or I assume their breeding dog) from them. That breeding dog, they got full clearances on - very likely with the guidance of the B's. And likely got contact with a good stud dog thanks to the B's? 

My assumption anyway. I'm not going to go too crazy trying to study pedigrees and snoop around. :smile2:

But they have since apparently fallen off the wagon. Bred multiple litters with no clearances on the parent dogs. And are still leaning heavily on the Sunfire influence? From I can tell.

I guess what my question is = would this be a case of a breeder being burned by a puppy person who got a full registration breeding bitch from them and have since gone further off the beaten trail, including playing stupid or lying to puppy buyers and helpers.

And then, at what point is a breeder like Sunfire or others going to stop selling full registration dogs to people who are going blow it like this?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Blowing it like this is any good breeder's nightmare. It's why we can't sell a newbie a full reg puppy. It's why perfectly nice people who might would've turned out to be a benefit to the fancy end up never doing anything w their dogs. And it's why so many gorgeous puppies are in pet homes. 
It's also why so many of us are iron fists with our stud dogs' get. 
You can see looking at a pedigree exactly where it was that someone made a mistake. 
It can be seen easily, Book/Biewer sold a bitch to the Decs, who apparently bred her (at least) twice. I'd wager B/B governed who they bred her to. The Decs sold a dog to Ocean's Breeze- didn't have a kennel name of their own and were probably thrilled someone came to them wanting a show dog.. of course, no one who really shows dogs is going to go to a newbie to get their next show dog, so that in itself is suspicious. We can find this scenario over and over in many less-than pedigrees, and less-than breeding programs. It's the moment a good pedigree goes bad, in the hands of those who don't care as much for the breed as they do their pocketbook.


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## GoldenMom999 (Apr 14, 2017)

Megora...different owners. Ocean's Breeze did not get their dog from SF....they were never on the wagon.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Pedigree: Sunfire's Kaylee O'Dec
this is the SF bitch in discussion


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## forevercaninecompanion (Oct 21, 2019)

I want to start this review by stating how much I love my 16 month old Golden Retriever, and how I am forever grateful to have her. I post this review to state that I will never return to Oceans Breeze Golden Retrievers for another dog, nor would I ever recommend them to anyone in search of a Golden Retriever. 

I picked up my dog in August of 2018. I was told that she came from parents, grandparents, and great- grandparents with great lines, and OFA ratings of good to excellent hips. For anyone new to Golden Retrievers, a very common, inheritable disease in pure bred large dogs is hip dysplasia. This disease is cripping and life-long. It has major implications on a dog's quality of life. I was so happy to hear that my dog was coming from such great lines of breeding. I was naive and trusted that this information was true.

Sharon and Pat, the breeders, created an amazing Facebook group, called Oceans Breeze Family (OBF). Every family who purchased a dog from them was invited. The group seemed like a wonderful, supportive community of people who shared stories and pictures of their dogs. All was great, until another dog owner posted a concerning question about her dog's hips. This is when Sharon and Pat began lying, hiding information, placing blame on the innocent, and deceiving members. 

Long story short, the father of 8-9 litters of puppies (Independence Day, "Indy") has MODERATE HIP DYSPLASIA. Sharon and Pat lied to every Oceans Breeze puppy owner. Clearly, Indy had hip dysplasia, which again is a GENETIC, INHERITABLE LIFE-LONG DISEASE, when they bred him. When the owner of the puppy who had concerns about her dogs hips (he was stiff and limped after running, was wincing in pain, and was very lethargic), Sharon and Pat told her "it's just growing pains, your dog's parents both have god hips"). When I posted that Indy was diagnosed with MODERATE HIP DYSPLASIA in August of 2019, Sharon and Pat denied this. Indy's hip x-ray ratings is listed in a public database, the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA). 

Several MAJOR issues: Indy's hips were not x-rayed until AGE 6, after he fathered 8-9 litters. First, how could Sharon and Pat confidently say that he had a rating of "GOOD" hips? Second, when Indy's MODERATE HIP DYSPLASIA was revealed (when they finally got his hips x-rayed in August of 2019), why did Sharon and Pat FAIL TO DISCLOSE this GENETIC, INHERITABLE LIFE-LING DISEASE to every single one of the Oceans Breeze dog owners? Indy fathered or is some way directly related to every single Oceans Breeze puppy. When confronted on this information, how could Sharon and Pat DENY that Indy's hips are in fact, not only NOT "good", but MODERATELY DYSPLASTIC.

The last issue is how disgustingly RUDE, DISMISSIVE, and DISRESPECTFUL Sharon and Pat were to the owner of the puppy whose hips, at only 16 months old are already MILDLY DYSPLASTIC. Sharon and Pat's only solution to this injustice of deceit was to take her dog back, and give her one from a new litter of dogs whose parents will be screened for hip dysplasia. Why would any dog owner want to give their dog back? When I suggested that this dog owner should receive a refund of her $1,500 to put toward medical bills (the $500 that she spent to get her dogs hips x-rays), and the ongoing, life-long medical treatments that her dog will need to address his dysplastic hips, I was told to mind my own business, and "stop stirring up trouble."

I'd finally like to address the disgusting living conditions that Sharon and Pat reside in. They have probably 20+ dogs in their house. These dogs are kept in crates all day, every day, with the exception of 30 minutes that they are let out to play. These dogs are not given the proper life, nor attention. When I picked my dog up, she was covered in feces. When a friend of mine picked her dog up, she later learned that he came home with fleas. Another member of Oceans Breeze shared me with privately, that his dog came home with a rash all over his face. Sharon and Pat make their living off of breeding dogs. They are irresponsible breeders who breed too many dogs at once. The end result is an overabundance of dogs that do not have homes. Sharon and Pat have been suspended from Facebook on a continual basis for trying to sell the overflow of puppies on Facebook. 

When looking for a Golden Retriever, you should be able to trust that the breeders are responsible, knowledgeable, and truthful. Sharon and Pat are none of these. It took me almost a year and a half to see the truth. Other members will probably post reviews that they are always responsive to questions, always supportive, and always here to help. Yes, Sharon and Pat were responsive to questions; however, were their responses correct? No. Were their responses based in any sort of research or evidence-based recommendations? No. When this dog owner asked about her dog's stiffness, limping, and pain, Sharon and Pat said it's "growing pains." If this dog owner had listened to Sharon and Pat, she would have never known that her dog has hip dysplasia, and she would have never gotten him the early treatment to make his life the best it can be given his diagnosis. What dog at 16 months (this is considered an adult dog), is stiff and limps as a result of growing pains? They are done growing. For anyone with any degree of common sense (let alone dog breeders!), this makes absolutely no sense. Shouldn't a responsible breeder recommend that she take her dog to the vet to make sure nothing is wrong? I'd like to think so.

I am disgusted, disappointed, and truly sickened not only by the horrific living conditions, but by the complete ignorance, deceit, and disregard when their members confront them on such an important issue. The end result of hiding, and then denying the issue of hidden hip dysplasia from families of 8-9 litters of puppies, was being removed from the Oceans Breeze Family group. What type of "family" throws you out when you bring an important issue to the forefront? Think about that when considering Oceans Breeze breeders.

There are so many breeders out there. Waiting for a puppy from a reputable, responsible, and knowledgeable breeder is worth the wait. To be honest, I am not sure how much longer Oceans Breeze will remain in business. Animal control, when (not if) when called, would immediately shut the entire business down, which quite frankly is long overdue.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Nikkidog said:


> You seem to have a problem with these people. I saw Apple’s and Indy’s OFA results and both have passed. You all seem to be assuming things . Loki is neutered and they have a couple others that are spayed and neutered. They where looking for a dog for their son that was from Dockdiving lines and it was a male not a female. I set up their website for them and nothing was mentioned about OFA’s I have been with these ladies for a few years now and know they are not in it for the money. It seems like you are saying things that are not true and starting trouble. I have not mentioned this to them because you seem to be a very unhappy person who likes to start trouble. Maybe someone should look into your life and see what you do that others don’t approve of. You are all a bunch of nasty people who have no clue about these women and how awesome their dogs are.
> OCEANS BREEZE GOLDEN RETRIEVERS ARE AWESOME DOGS.


So.... what say you now that Indy's OFAs are not just a little bit failed but moderate? It's obvious IF they showed you anything it was falsified. 
And you never did tell me your dog's reg name.. since you claim to have the core 4 on your dog. 
People like this start their own trouble by lying.
OTOH- I think given the timeline this must be one of the ones you arranged clearances for. I hope you will either get all the rest of them done, or talk these people into altering and placing their animals- and not breeding ever again. 

sspector- I'm sorry for the puppy you are referencing, and hope you do not have issues w your own. Believing people you want to believe without verifying is never going to be a good method of being sure what you are buying. Thank you for your post.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I am so sorry... for all you and your pup are facing. But thank you for sharing your story. The GRF tries so hard to get people to understand why getting clearances is so important. It's not just facing a lifetime of health issues but the conditions most of these animals are kept in. It breaks our hearts when people refuse to acknowledge it's so much more than just getting a puppy just to be getting a puppy. It's also about supporting this type of breeder. Why anyone would want to contribute to this escapes me. 
I understand budgets but honestly, save up for a year and get your puppy from a responsible breeder. BE A RESPONSIBLE BUYER! Buying from a breeder that only breeds for profit, that take short cuts (no clearances) is trashing the breed you are about to purchase. Why would you not want to have a healthy, well bred puppy when you KNOW the breeder you picked is irresponsible... much less to get on a waiting list for one of these pups!! 
It's like buying a car with no transmission, why does anyone do this?
Thanks again for sharing!!!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I see they have removed Indy’s hip rating from the OFA database. The change history on his k9data page is very interesting though. His hips were initially listed as “redo in 6 months.”


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Tahnee GR said:


> I see they have removed Indy’s hip rating from the OFA database. The change history on his k9data page is very interesting though. His hips were initially listed as “redo in 6 months.”


I saw that too.. suspect Lesley was on the ball and also saw it, got the OFA rating before they had it removed.. thank you BLAZENGR!
And I expect to see them try to remove from k9data too.. too bad. 
I'm equally sure Lesley made a photocopy of the record.

All that effort just so they can deceive more puppy buyers downline.

Also interesting- if one looks @ this dog on AKC one does not see a single entry in any event- they just listed on k9data all the random play titles-CGC, FO,USGI,RATN,CT,TK- but AKC doesn't show a single entry in anything. FOR SURE this dog is NOT a CT. It's a laughable claim. I removed it from K9data.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

https://www.akc.org/sports/titles-and-abbreviations/


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

Since there is no longer a record for hips in the OFA database, I removed it from K9data. However, all of those title abbreviations are for events for which the owner has to submit documentation to AKC to receive a title certificate. In other words, they aren't really AKC events, but AKC accepts and recognizes them. They are exceptionally hard to police, and most people don't have a clue that TKN is superceded by TKI, and then TKA, etc. Same with RATN >> RATI, etc. Subpar breeders tend to put these titles in A LOT because it looks like they are doing something with their dogs, but it is hard to prove, and (quite honestly) some of them are just ridiculous.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

and just fyi- since none of those certificates are on AKC record for this dog, he actually only has certificates, not titles. They obviously didn't want to pay the $$ to make them titling events... not to belittle the pet person who goes and gets a Trick cert- it's fun- but it's not any indication a dog should be bred simply because he can shake hands and lie down and roll over on command. .. or signal where the rat is hidden in a hay bale.. the FO thing is from the Working Dog registry, it stands for Family Dog (I think)... mostly though, it seriously blows my mind they threw CT in there, a title he does not have.


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## Nikkidog (Jul 23, 2019)

For one thing this is all a lie. Dogs are vet checked and do not live in filthy conditions. They are seen in the community and events all over. They play outside for more than 30 minutes a day. We are all dealing with the person who dog is showing mild signs also The dog in question was upgraded to mild and has been renoved from breeding. The breeder who sold the dog to them sold a dog prone to dysplasia also and should be shut down also. All their new dogs have been OFA checked and have gotten good results. Their male was just done and waiting on those results. They have stopped their breeding until all results are back and have a lot of satisfied people. One person has had a dog with mild hip dysplasia and it is being taken care of. Maybe you ought to check into the other breeder in the area selling dogs for twice as much with no OFA’s . I know this person who is complaining and I have proof her dog did not go home dirty the owners take photos of the puppies with the people before they leave and post them on their page. Nobody has ever contacted them about fleas, dogs with fecal on them or a rash on the face. I am now a silent partner with them and we are starting all over. You can all continue bashing someone because of one person being a spoiled little brat.


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## love goldens for life (Oct 21, 2019)

Even if the person in question is''a spoiled brat'' that dose not make up for the lack of clearances or unprofessional behavior of the breeder.


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## Nikkidog (Jul 23, 2019)

How does someone remove a post from the OFA site? They redid the X-rays and it came back as mild and it was posted for all the people that have puppies from this male. The dogs have gone to fun matches and other events these are titles I added because I received the initials from the CKC. Not AKC


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## Nikkidog (Jul 23, 2019)

There was no unprofessional behavior. Everyone was told the dogs came from good lines have all the paperwork and that the prelims where done and read by the vet. They all where given a contract to sign and read it and signed. So should Sunfire be drawn through the mud for selling a dog that has hip dysplasia? How many of their offspring that has never been tested have dysplasia? It is a crap shoot with hips no matter what. I have talked to plenty of breeders and Vets the last few days. We all have and we have come to the conclusion it is what it is. We are working with the person who has the dog with dysplasia and this girl has no reason to be involved and she is spreading a lot of lives. Even going after the children in this family. I have been reading all the correspondence and we are working on all this together.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Here's the thing- you did not get TITLES from AKC- there are NO titles nor entries on that dog's AKC record. You have a CERTIFICATE. that's all. CKC (assuming you mean Canadian- because the Continental is just worser than worse) doesn't even have CGC- it has what is called the CGN program. https://www.ckc.ca/en/Raising-My-Dog/Responsible-Ownership/Canine-Good-Neighbour-Program Not the CGC. TK is not a CKC title, either. NTD is their trick title. https://www.ckc.ca/en/News/2019/July/CKC-Welcomes-Do-More-With-Your-Dog®-Trick-Dog-Titl If you got certificates and input to k9data from those certificates as you say, it is pretty funny that you got at least two of them completely wrong. 

And how it gets removed from OFA? I dk- but I bet someone called and claimed not understanding the 'release of abnormal results' line so they removed them. Then a month later, you still have (if we are to believe you redid them) failing results but this time no one signed 'release abnormal results' line so they are still not on OFA. If you repeated them and still got 3 fails, that is. 

It doesn't matter. It's obvious to anyone who reads the documentable info here (and reads the change history on k9data which is in itself quite telling) that there is deceit involved. 

And Sunfire? They didn't make tons of puppies from a dog w dysplasia... breed that dog repeatedly...and actually they didn't breed him at all- they sold the Decs the dam of Indy. They are not Indy's breeders. I can only guess at why Indy's dam has Sunfire as a prefix- my guess would be that the Decs didn't have a kennel name. And Sunfire doesn't have puppies on the marketplace from a dog and KNOW he has HD. 
Why should Book/Biewer (Sunfire) get drug through anything? I'm still waiting to see YOUR dog you claimed had the core 4... since there is still not a single Ocean's Breeze dog w the core 4 on OFA. There IS this dog who does have hips and elbows- but you originally said your dog had Good OFAs- and this one is a Fair- plus he appears to live in Bimidji MN. https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1827838 so dk if you misremembered or if your dog just isn't there at all. 
It's sad when two vet techs can't do better than your average BYB. I'm glad you are their new 'silent partner'- I hope that you get their act together so that puppy people are not being hoodwinked.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

My goodness! I just read through this whole thread, and it is indeed telling. Nikkidog, the suddenly appearing puppy buyer now silent partner, seems very interesting to me. Is she who she says she is? Does she really have a dog born of parents with the four core clearances that for some strange reason she is refusing to identify so her claim could be verified? This wouldn't be the first time a bad breeder has come into this forum under the guise of being someone else, and tried to defend themselves from the truth. I was sad to read the name-calling, whataboutism, and shifting stories. That did not make this breeder look any better, I'm afraid.

If anyone reads this thread thinking about getting a puppy from this breeder, it seems to me that Nikkidog hasn't done this breeder any favors by the posts made here. It reads as guilty, IMHO. And it's quite obvious to even the newest of newbies that this breeder is saying things that are untruthful, and then changing the story. That is a huge red flag by itself. I've never seen an ethical breeder act that way, and I know a lot of ethical breeders who aren't stellar human beings. Even the worst of them wouldn't act like this, though. I think Nikkidog, whoever she is, is actually making things worse for this breeder...which is really a good thing for puppy buyers, IMHO.

The better response would have been to take a breath, acknowledge that mistakes have been made and that more knowledge and education is needed, and vow to do things the right way from now on. That would be the best response to this thread. That would be best for puppy buyers, too.

All puppy buyers should know that health clearances can be easily verified on OFA.org. And they should have all clearances in their hands before a penny or puppy is exchanged. Plus, a good breeder will give a guarantee against hip and elbow dysplasia. _Caveat emptor_, friends. This thread is a good example of how you can get taken if you are naive. Do your homework.

P.S. I'm impressed by Robin, Leslie, and others' civility in the face of insults and provocative posts. Well done, and better than I would do.


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## Nikkidog (Jul 23, 2019)

So their dogs have Dockdiving through Dockdogs and AKC does not do these does it mean it is false. They do this for fun. Sunfire is not being dragged through the mud I just said he came from good lines and has dysplasia. You all can say and do what you want we are all working towards a better result. You are accusing us of lying but take everyone else’s word. You tell me your real name and maybe I will give you my information. But I am actually done explaining myself to you. We have 95% of our people standing with us. The few that start spreading lies and attacking the children and everything are trolls and don’t deserve any more of our time


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Nikkidog said:


> So their dogs have Dockdiving through Dockdogs and AKC does not do these does it mean it is false. They do this for fun.


Well, they are not titles, yet they are represented as such by affixing them to the dog's registered name. Here is a link to all the acceptable suffix titles. There are a ton of them, but you do have to actually earn them. https://www.akc.org/sports/titles-and-abbreviations/#suffix



> Sunfire is not being dragged through the mud I just said he came from good lines and has dysplasia.


Well, you certainly said more than that. Don't try to gaslight us. It's right there for everyone to read. You said, "So should Sunfire be drawn through the mud for selling a dog that has hip dysplasia? How many of their offspring that has never been tested have dysplasia?" That does read like mudslinging and whataboutism, to me.



> You are accusing us of lying but take everyone else’s word. You tell me your real name and maybe I will give you my information.


Okay, I'll start. My name is Dana Douglas. I am Esquire Golden Retrievers. You can find my contact information on our website. And you are...???


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

How anyone with any knowledge of the breed would read that pedigree would shine zero blame on Sunfire ...they sold Kaylee to the Decs ...who sold Indy to Ocean Breeze. 
FWIW- AKC does have dock diving . But the certificates you claim *you* input to k9data from CKC were input under Sharon Gratton's name. And if YOU are Sharon Gratton, you are not a puppy person who's now a silent partner but are one of the two who are Ocean Breeze. 
That aside, no dock diving titles are on the dog's name on k9data- unless USGI is a dock accomplishment- I cannot find it anywhere, be it Dock Dogs or AKC or CKC so you can educate us on that acronym. I dk what USGI means in terms of dogs. So the whole last post about dock diving and how they do it, for fun, is irrelevant to the thread- no one has brought up dock diving. I *am * curious where you came up w the CT you added to the dog. He doesn't have a CT. To anyone who tracks, adding a title like that to a dog who's not earned it is so offensive. 

I'm Robin Bowen, and I am Prism Goldens. That's two of us. Really, it's easy enough to figure out who WE are. We aren't hiding who we are. Or who our dogs are *especially since you posted that you had the core 4 on your 4 YO boy yet it's not on OFA. The only one that comes close is the one I posted a link to and he lives in MN. Oh- no one has said word one about anyone's children. Kids are off limits. We're just posting truths here re: the breeding program.


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## forevercaninecompanion (Oct 21, 2019)

Thank you. Thankfully my puppy is fine BUT her brother from the same litter is not okay. He has mild hip dysplasia. The breeders are refusing to help her out financially. They said they made no guarantee about the health. She is currently pursuing legal action.


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## forevercaninecompanion (Oct 21, 2019)

YES. They deleted his ratings from the OFA and K9 data. Doesn't that say it all?! Luckily I took pictures!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

sspector said:


> YES. They deleted his ratings from the OFA and K9 data. Doesn't that say it all?! Luckily I took pictures!


He is locked on k9data. 
When people start inputting inaccurate stuff that's what happens. 
Since you have a photo, it is possible it could be put back up if your photo is time stamped after the date they claim they re-did them and got Mild rating. Either way, it is a hard fail. 
Most 'in the know' people know to look @ the change history and from there the story is pretty apparent.
Is your pup registered? Are you Hayley? I sent you a FB message if you are. 

If you aren't, and your pup is registered, would you post his info?


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

This thread has more palace intrigue than Downton Abbey. I cannot imagine doing all the things these people have done to deceive puppy buyers, when doing it right is so easy and has the benefit of making you feel good about what you're doing, too. What unhappy people they must be. It must be unpleasant to live in their skin. 

Nevertheless, this thread is a wonderful education for puppy buyers. It should be required reading, as insight into what really goes on out there. _Caveat emptor._


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## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

OH SNAP!!!!

Oceans breeze golden has CHANGED THEIR KENNEL name b/c of all the mess they have got themselves into!!

They are now calling themselves HEIDIWAY Golden's! do a search for goldens in Vermont on the akc marketplace site & there it is. DISGUSTING!!


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## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

*Oceans Breeze of Arlington VT name change to Heidiway golden -unethical breeder*

Oceans Breeze of Arlington VT was caught breeding dogs with no OFA's while claiming to have them and a sire with hip dysplasia fathering over 6 litters. Just do a search on this website for the horror stories out of this kennel.

THEY HAVE CHANGED THEIR NAME TO HEIDIWAY GOLDEN'S. Do not be fooled!!!!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

> tuckerkeys;7763864]OH SNAP!!!!
> 
> Oceans breeze golden has CHANGED THEIR KENNEL name b/c of all the mess they have got themselves into!!
> 
> They are now calling themselves HEIDIWAY Golden's! link to marketplace.akc site, or if that doesn't work, do a search for golden in Vermont & there it is. DISGUSTING!!




told ya they would do that. 
No ethical breeder would change their name with the wind. Wouldn't it just be easier to follow the rules? Good catch!


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## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

Nikkidog said:


> They have stopped their breeding until all results are back and have a lot of satisfied people.
> 
> OH YEAH???????????
> 
> They changed their name, have 14 week olds on the ground AND A LITTER DUE NOVEMBER!!!!


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## forevercaninecompanion (Oct 21, 2019)

> tuckerkeys;7763864]OH SNAP!!!!
> 
> Oceans breeze golden has CHANGED THEIR KENNEL name b/c of all the mess they have got themselves into!!
> 
> They are now calling themselves HEIDIWAY Golden's! link to marketplace.akc site, or if that doesn't work, do a search for golden in Vermont & there it is. DISGUSTING!!




Thanks for the heads up! ????


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## forevercaninecompanion (Oct 21, 2019)

They are not going to stop breeding. They continue to breed Apple, even though her grandfather and great uncle failed their OFA hip clearances. This poor dog had her first litter before she was even 2 years old. She is bred every heat cycle. I am not a vet, but that seems like a lot to me. I would love the opinion of the people in this forum as to how often the same dog should be breed. They also breed the same male dog, Indy, with different females. What are the health implications of that? TIA!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Since Heidiway Goldens didn't bring this thread up, I am posting Heidiway Goldens here for Google's sake.. 
Wonder who it's named for? There is a Heidi Way who comes up when you google Heidiway Goldens.. and three Heidi Ways on FB. 

It's so interesting to me how these breeders who have no reason to feel pride in their programs have no issues changing their kennel names. 
On to the next one.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I’m curious if the puppy page has had its name changed as well & what story was sold to the families with Ocean Breeze dogs that they are now Heidiway—I’m sure it’s got to reference the injustices & untruths of internet bullying, instead of just coming clean on their breeding practices


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## MustLuvDogs (Oct 22, 2019)

As far as I know, the Oceans Breeze Facebook name has not been changed. This has been a fast-moving attempt at a clean up. The truth about these breeders recently came to a head when one of the puppies was diagnosed with mild hip dysplasia at 16 months old. The breeders sold puppies under then guise of 6 generations of clear lines. It turns out the father of countless litters (Independence Day “Indy”) has hip dysplasia that was not disclosed to any puppy owners. 

Here is my story, as a current dog owner of an “Oceans Breeze/ Heidiway Golden’s”:

I picked up my dog in August of 2018. I was told that she came from parents, grandparents, and great- grandparents with great lines, and OFA ratings of good to excellent hips. I was so happy to hear that my dog was coming from such great lines of breeding. I was naive and trusted that this information was true.

Sharon and Pat, the breeders, created an amazing Facebook group, called Oceans Breeze Family (OBF). Every family who purchased a dog from them was invited to join. The group seemed like a wonderful, supportive community of people who shared stories and pictures of their dogs. All was great, until another dog owner posted a concerning question about her dog's hips. This is when Sharon and Pat began lying, hiding information, placing blame on the innocent, and deceiving members.

Long story short, I found out through private research that the father of 8-9 litters of puppies (Independence Day, "Indy") never had his hips x- rayed until August 2019 (when he was 6 years old), although for years (they began breeding Indy at 2 years old) Sharon and Pat told dog owners that he had "good" hips). The results of his x- rays showed that he has moderate hip dysplasia.

What does this mean? This means that Sharon and Pat lied to every Oceans Breeze puppy owner when they said that the puppies' parents had good to excellent hips. Indy has hip dysplasia, which again is a genetic, inheritable, life-long disease. The mothers of these puppies never had their hips x-rayed.

When the owner of one of Indy’s puppies asked questions about her dogs hips (he was stiff and limped after running, was wincing in pain, and was very lethargic), Sharon and Pat told her "it's just growing pains, your dog's parents both have good hips"). The concerned puppy owner posted this question in October of 2019. Sharon and Pat knew that Indy had moderate hip dysplasia as of August 2019. When I posted in the Facebook group that I saw that Indy was diagnosed with moderate hip dysplasia in August of 2019, but was confused because Sharon and Pat said Indy's hips were "good," Sharon and Pat said "Indy does not have hip dysplasia.

Several major issues: First, Indy's hips were not x-rayed until age 6, after he fathered 8-9 litters, so I do not understand how could Sharon and Pat confidently said that he had a rating of "good" hips. Second, when Indy's moderate hip dysplasia was revealed (when they finally got his hips x-rayed in August of 2019), why did Sharon and Pat fail to disclose this information to every single one of the Oceans Breeze dog owners? Indy fathered or is some way directly related to every single Oceans Breeze puppy. That is a lot of dogs who may have been born with dysplastic hips, whose owners have no clue. Third, when confronted on Indy's hip dysplasia, how could Sharon and Pat deny that Indy's hips are in fact, not only, not "good", but moderately dysplastic? There have been so many discrepancies, mistruths, contradictions, and flat out lies that I have lost track.

The last major issue is how rude, dismissive, and disrespectful Sharon and Pat were to the owner of the puppy whose hips, at only 16 months old are already mildly dysplastic. Sharon and Pat's only solution to this injustice of deceit was to take her dog back, and give her one from a new litter of dogs whose parents will be screened for hip dysplasia. Why would any dog owner want to give their dog back? When I suggested that this dog owner should receive a refund of her $1,500 to put toward medical bills (the $500 that she spent to get her dogs hips x-rayed), and then the ongoing, life-long medical treatments that her dog will need to address his dysplastic hips, I was told to mind my own business, and "stop stirring up trouble."

I'd finally like to address the deplorable living conditions. There are 20+ dogs in their house. These dogs are not given the proper life, nor attention that any dog deserves. They live in filth and they are kept in crates piled on top of one another all day.

When I picked up my dog to take her home, she was covered in feces. When a friend of mine picked her dog up, she later learned that he came home with fleas from their house. Another member of Oceans Breeze shared me with privately, that his dog came home with a rash all over his face. Sharon and Pat make their living off of breeding dogs. They are irresponsible breeders who breed too many dogs at once. The end result is an overabundance of dogs that do not have homes. Sharon and Pat have been suspended from Facebook on a continual basis for trying to sell the overflow of puppies on Facebook.

When looking for a Golden Retriever, you should be able to trust that the breeders are responsible, knowledgeable, and truthful. Sharon and Pat are none of these. It took me almost a year and a half to see the truth. Other members will probably post reviews that they are always responsive to questions, always supportive, and always here to help. Yes, Sharon and Pat were responsive to questions; however, were their responses correct? No. Were their responses based in any sort of research or evidence-based recommendations? No.

When this dog owner asked about her dog's stiffness, limping, and pain, Sharon and Pat said it's "growing pains." If this dog owner had listened to Sharon and Pat, she would have never known that her dog has hip dysplasia, and she would have never gotten him the early treatment to make his life the best it can be given his diagnosis. What dog at 16 months (this is considered an adult dog), is stiff and limps as a result of growing pains? They are done growing. For anyone with any degree of common sense (let alone to dog breeders!), this explanation and write-off is unbelievable. Shouldn't a responsible breeder recommend that she take her dog to the vet to make sure nothing is wrong? I'd like to think so.

I am disgusted and disappointed not only by the horrific living conditions, but by the complete ignorance, deceit, and disregard when Oceans Breeze Family members confront Sharon and Pat on such an important issue. The end result of bringing information about Indy's hip dysplasia (that Sharon and Pat have been hiding, and denying from families of 8-9 litters of puppies), forward was that I was removed from the Oceans Breeze Family group.

*I had my dogs hips x rayed and her hips are clear. I am so grateful, so I do not want anyone to think I am sharing this out of revenge. My puppy is okay, but I am sharing this because one of my dogs litter mages has mild hip dysplasia, and given the number of litters that Indy has fathered, I am sure countless other puppies are suffering as well. I hope that a simple kennel name change does not hide the truth.


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## MustLuvDogs (Oct 22, 2019)

Very disappointing. Another attempt to hide the truth and continue with irresponsible breeding. Here is the story that I’m assuming led to the name change:

I picked up my dog in August of 2018. I was told that she came from parents, grandparents, and great- grandparents with great lines, and OFA ratings of good to excellent hips. I was so happy to hear that my dog was coming from such great lines of breeding. I was naive and trusted that this information was true.m

Sharon and Pat, the breeders, created an amazing Facebook group, called Oceans Breeze Family (OBF). Every family who purchased a dog from them was invited to join. The group seemed like a wonderful, supportive community of people who shared stories and pictures of their dogs. All was great, until another dog owner posted a concerning question about her dog's hips. This is when Sharon and Pat began lying, hiding information, placing blame on the innocent, and deceiving members.

Long story short, I found out through private research that the father of 8-9 litters of puppies (Independence Day, "Indy") never had his hips x- rayed until August 2019 (when he was 6 years old), although for years (they began breeding Indy at 2 years old) Sharon and Pat told dog owners that he had "good" hips). The results of his x- rays showed that he has moderate hip dysplasia.

When the owner of one of Indy’s puppies asked questions about her dogs hips (he was stiff and limped after running, was wincing in pain, and was very lethargic), Sharon and Pat told her "it's just growing pains, your dog's parents both have good hips"). The concerned puppy owner posted this question in October of 2019. Sharon and Pat knew that Indy had moderate hip dysplasia as of August 2019. When I posted in the Facebook group that I saw that Indy was diagnosed with moderate hip dysplasia in August of 2019, but was confused because Sharon and Pat said Indy's hips were "good," Sharon and Pat said "Indy does not have hip dysplasia.”

Several major issues: First, Indy's hips were not x-rayed until age 6, after he fathered 8-9 litters, so I do not understand how could Sharon and Pat confidently said that he had a rating of "good" hips. Second, when Indy's moderate hip dysplasia was revealed (when they finally got his hips x-rayed in August of 2019), why did Sharon and Pat fail to disclose this information to every single one of the Oceans Breeze dog owners? Indy fathered or is some way directly related to every single Oceans Breeze puppy. That is a lot of dogs who may have been born with dysplastic hips, whose owners have no clue. Third, when confronted on Indy's hip dysplasia, how could Sharon and Pat deny that Indy's hips are in fact, not only, not "good", but moderately dysplastic? There have been so many discrepancies, mistruths, contradictions, and flat out lies that I have lost track.

Sharon and Pat have been so how rude, dismissive, and disrespectful to the owner of the puppy whose hips, at only 16 months are mildly dysplastic.

There are 20+ dogs in Sharon and Pat’s house. These dogs are not given the proper life, nor attention that any dog deserves. They live in filth and they are kept in crates piled on top of one another all day.

When I picked up my dog to take her home, she was covered in feces. When a friend of mine picked her dog up, she later learned that he came home with fleas from their house. Another member of Oceans Breeze shared me with privately, that his dog came home with a rash all over his face. Sharon and Pat make their living off of breeding dogs. They are irresponsible breeders who breed too many dogs at once. The end result is an overabundance of dogs that do not have homes. Sharon and Pat have been suspended from Facebook on a continual basis for trying to sell the overflow of puppies on Facebook.

When this dog owner asked about her dog's stiffness, limping, and pain, Sharon and Pat said it's "growing pains." If this dog owner had listened to Sharon and Pat, she would have never known that her dog has hip dysplasia, and she would have never gotten him the early treatment to make his life the best it can be given his diagnosis. Was this a result of poor knowledge of typical/ atypical development or an attempt to hide the truth? Either way, I’m glad that things are exposed for what they really are. 

It’s too bad (but quite telling) that instead of acknowledging mistakes, taking responsibility for their actions and trying to make amends, they changed the kennel name to hide the truth and continue irresponsible breeding.

By the way, a new litter of puppies is due in about a month, and advertised under “HEIDIWAY GOLDENS” and I’m willing to bet Indy is the father...


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## Lincgold (May 11, 2018)

Wow, I just read this whole thread. I almost wish I hadn’t. I’m hugging my sweet boy now because I can’t get the picture out of my head of so many Goldens living in unfavorable conditions, being bred over and over again. Not to mention the lies and deceitful advertising. I am comforted and so appreciative to all the wonderful, knowledgeable forum members, ie Prism Goldens, DanaRuns, PuddlesEverywhere..just to name a few, but there are so many more caring members who take the time to help or offer advice just for the love of the breed. Thank you to all from the bottom of my heart.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

tuckerkeys said:


> Oceans Breeze of Arlington VT was caught breeding dogs with no OFA's while claiming to have them and a sire with hip dysplasia fathering over 6 litters. Just do a search on this website for the horror stories out of this kennel.
> 
> THEY HAVE CHANGED THEIR NAME TO HEIDIWAY GOLDEN'S. Do not be fooled!!!!


OP- Your duplicate threads were merged together into one thread so all the information and replies would be in the same thread.


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## MustLuvDogs (Oct 22, 2019)

*Heidiway goldens*

Sharon and Pat are selling a litter of puppies due in November, under Heidiway Goldens on the AKC marketplace. The parents of these puppies are probably Indy and Apple. Indy has known hip dysplasia, and they guaranteed that he would not be bred anymore. Apple's grandparents have known hip dysplasia, yet they are continually breeding her.

Sharon and Pat also said that Fenway and Duck had an "ACCIDENTAL BREEDING" and they are not sure if Fenway is pregnant yet. I think they claim it is an "accidental breeding" because Duck is under the age of two, and has not had his OFA clearances yet, even though they were assuring people that their protocol has changed, and they are doing OFA clearances for all dogs moving forward.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Prism Goldens said:


> I saw that too.. suspect Lesley was on the ball and also saw it, got the OFA rating before they had it removed.. thank you BLAZENGR!
> And I expect to see them try to remove from k9data too.. too bad.
> I'm equally sure Lesley made a photocopy of the record.
> 
> ...



I find the lure coursing claim I read a while back interesting. Goldens aren't sighthounds.


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## CheriP (Jan 7, 2016)

The dog that has been mentioned a couple times, "Ted", is in fact my dog. I have not done his heart & eyes, because I am not going to breed him. We switched to a raw diet a few months back, so after a couple more months, I do plan on having his taurine levels checked, heart, & eyes for reference. He does have his novice trick, for fun, CGC, & senior dock diving title through AKC. 
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1827838


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

So assuming you are not the poster claiming full clearances on HIS O/B puppy, we can call that not true since your Ted is the only one with even close to a full set of clearances on OFA. Thank you for that. He looks like he is ready to get his award now in that picture!


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## jeffscott947 (Jun 9, 2019)

Fantastic picture, and a beautiful dog!^^^


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

A few more of the Ocean's Breeze dogs have filled in pedigrees now...I still have two more to spend BOM$ on when they refresh mid-Jan but that will finish them off for those curious of the pedigrees....


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## Arlington Native (8 mo ago)

tuckerkeys said:


> A friend referred us to this breeder, Oceans Breeze in Arlington VT
> 
> They seem to be new at it? and have limited akc dogs. When searching their name on k9data and also the ofa site I'm not finding much. the breeders names are Sharon Gratton or Patricia McKee.
> 
> Their current litters mom name is Apple. Not sure who the sire is. I'm assuming this is a backyard breeder? If they do breed with all clearances then I'll move forward. I've asked for info but have no response yet...Was just wondering if anyone on this site has any info on them or any dogs from their kennel


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## Arlington Native (8 mo ago)




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## Arlington Native (8 mo ago)

Nikkidog said:


> We have had a Golden from them for 4years he is the best dog I have ever had. I get nothing but compliments from Vets and trainers on how well breed this dog is. I have had his hips and elbows OFA’d and both came back good. He has competed in Agility and Barn Hunt. We also Dockdive with him. I am on the list for a puppy from their next litter. I have noticed they are doing OFA’s along with heart and eyes. They even test for CNL. They do deworming at 2,4,6,& 8 weeks, they also vaccinat and microchip all puppies. They are the only breeders I know that have their puppies examed at 6 weeks and then at 8 weeks by their vet . They are not backyard breeders or puppymill. These dogs are taken care of and very much loved. They are now working with a breeder that is helping them with their questions. I would recommend these women to anyone who would love a wonderful Golden retriever. Also one of you said they are in it for the money. With the bag full of dog toys, collar and leash and other dog goodies they send you home with money is not an issue and they donate 2 puppies a year to organizations that train service dogs.


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## Arlington Native (8 mo ago)

Nikkidog said:


> Well you all don’t seem to know much. Their vet is a board certified orthopedic. I just called Latham NY and got the price for eyes and heart exams on the dogs and I am going to help them set those up. Most likely will be around the end of the month since they do have jobs.and I will tell them you all suggested their vet is incompetent and need those X-rays. Also they have had a private Facebook page for 5 years now because they don’t want nasty people on it.
> But you have no clue. These ladies put a lot of money in their dogs and taking care of them. Do you have the vet check your puppies at 6 & 8 weeks. They have brought a puppy to a specialist when the vet thought there was a problem at 6 weeks. They even have the vet do the vaccinations where most breeders do them themselves. You all like to tear people down instead of building them up. Maybe that is why the dog world is so nasty.
> I bet Tuckerkeys was refused a puppy by them so she/he wanted to start some trouble. These ladies have very good intentions and I can tell you they care very much.


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## LuvofGoldens (5 mo ago)

Now selling as Jacob's Golden Retrievers on AKC Marketplace
Jacob's Golden Retrievers - Golden Retriever Puppies For Sale - Born on 05/31/2022


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

LuvofGoldens said:


> Now selling as Jacob's Golden Retrievers on AKC Marketplace
> Jacob's Golden Retrievers - Golden Retriever Puppies For Sale - Born on 05/31/2022


thanks for keeping us up on the ever changing face of this 'breeder'....


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