# Dusting off the clicker



## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

> I've been working with Charlie to teach him that "click" = "good". However, I think we've gotten to a weird point, where he thinks that the clicker means food is coming.


The clicker does mean food is coming.  



> Charlie: I love the clicker because I always know when to open my mouth in preparation for a treat. I wonder why she stopped rewarding me for sitting. Maybe I won't sit next time.


Has he ever actually not sat the next time, or are you just speculating as to what is going on inside his head (dangerous thing to do)? Unless he's actually not responding to your cues anymore, you should be thrilled because your dog knows so well that the click is a predictor of reinforcement.

If you want extra reassurance that he's thinking about what he needs to do to GET the click/treat, there are a couple of games you can play. The first would be Doggy Zen. http://www.dragonflyllama.com/ DOGS/Levels/LevelBehaviours/TL26Zen.html When you teach a "watch me" type cue, once he understands the basic idea you can try holding the treats out to the side so you know he's looking away from the treats to look at you. And when you teach him to touch a target like a margarine lid, you can hold the treats out to one side and the lid out to the other side so he has to leave the treats to touch the target. It might take a couple minutes the first few times, but he'll get the idea.



> For example, when I give him treats everytime he hears a child but doesn't growl, I just get him all worked up just by the mere split second sight of a treat, that I think he's starting to associate "child" = "anxiety caused by presence of food" which is bad!!! It was supposed to be "child = "yummy fun treat" = "good"!


So he gets excited whenever he hears the child because he knows he'll get food? Is it really anxiety, or just a higher arousal state than you're used to seeing? 

It sounds to me like he's doing just fine. Instead of growling when he sees a child, he expects a treat. He doesn't growl. Don't worry. Be happy.  :wave: 

If he's "all worked up," can you ask for a control behavior (sit, down, hand target, etc) and will he respond? If so, that is even better. You now have a perfect way to redirect him whenever he's near a child. If his mind is collected enough to be able to focus on hand targeting, he's not too aroused. If he can't focus on hand targeting, then you need to get him farther away from the child until he can. I like hand targeting the best because if your hand's in a good spot, your dog can't target your hand while still looking at the children. So if you can get him to hand target, his mind is now thinking rather than reacting, and he can't see the kids.



> Any way to use the clicker instead of the food on a highly food motivated dog?


You have to use some sort of positive reinforcement after the clicker. Depending on the dog and the situation, this can be food, a toy, taking off the leash so he can run free, a game like chase or wrestle, opening the door so he can run outside, letting him out of the crate, letting him go see a person or dog who he really wants to see, letting him go chase squirrels, anything.

With a highly food motivated dog, you WANT to be using food in training as much as possible. The more your dog likes the reinforcer you're using, the stronger your behaviors will be. Yes, using a reinforcer that is that high-value to the dog will probably get your dog more aroused than you're used to seeing. But he's still learning because he wants that much more to figure out how to get the treat.


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

oh ok - so i guess i've got this whole clicker thing down wrong!! I guess my question then would be, what's the point of the clicker? Why can't I just use the food/treat? I just feel like he's only responding bc of the treat, not because of the clicker, so I don't know why I am clicking at all. Of course, you're right, I'm just speculating on what is going on in his head, so that may not be the case at all.

What you said about getting him to "hand target" is helpful. I haven't tried that. He will sit or down if I tell him to (without actually looking at me, just keeping his eye on whatever is arousing him - kids, squirrels, etc) but I feel like getting him to look at my hand will be much harder, at least at the distance we're working at. I'll have to back up. 

I guess I also need to "up the ante" in terms of what I am asking him to do. He knows his sit, stay, down and roll over pretty well (not really roll over, just kind of lie on his side). The hand target is one thing, are there other more difficult, attention requiring tasks I can ask him to do when he's in an aroused state? 

Thanks a lot Katie - this is very helpful. If you remember, Charlie's the one who's had a number of issues since we rescued him, including biting a child recently. We're trying to work with him to reduce his anxiety and increase his trust in us. We've been trying everything and it all gets confusing sometimes!!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

sashac... in case you're not aware, Katie is our un-official clicker specialist and booster. The response she gave you was excellent advice and info (in my opinion) but I would like to try and answer at least one of your questions... why use the clicker at all?

The clicker's purpose is simply as a 'marker'... that comes to mean "you just did the right thing and you WILL get paid real soon". You could just as well use a verbal "Good dog!" to mark the reward-able behavior but some trainers like the precision of the clicker because its very quick... so if your timing is right (it must be the very instant the desired behavior takes place) the dog can learn very complex behaviors very quickly by the use of 'shaping' together with the clicker. Its often said using a clicker verses verbal cues by a skilled trainer is like the difference between a surgeon using a scalpel verses a butterknife... a skilled trainer can be very precise indeed.

And yes, you must continue following the click with a reward of some type to continue getting the desired behavior otherwise some type of extinction will often soon follow... rewards are the basis of all positive training methods and why they work. How long would you continue going to work and performing tasks if you stopped getting your pay checks? (even if you really liked your bosses) ...so why would you expect your dog to be any different?


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

Ah - got it, the precision! Ok, with that in hand, I will return to clicker training in informed earnest.

It's pretty funny how confused I was about this - I can't imagine what Charlie must have been thinking with me clicking and throwing treats and clicking and praising. He must have thought he was at the Bridge already, treats and funny noises falling from the sky.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

sashac said:


> ...I can't imagine what Charlie must have been thinking with me clicking and throwing treats and clicking and praising. He must have thought he was at the Bridge already, treats and funny noises falling from the sky.


That's some pretty funny stuff...  

Actually that's how you begin introducing the clicker... by seemingly endless repetitions of pairing the clicker with treats... click then treat, click then treat, click then treat, click then treat, click then treat, click then treat, click then treat, click then treat, click then treat, click then treat, click then treat, click then treat, click then treat, click then treat, click then treat, click then treat, click then treat, etc.

When the association between click and then treat has been firmly established then the actual clicker training can start...


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

> I guess my question then would be, what's the point of the clicker? Why can't I just use the food/treat? I just feel like he's only responding bc of the treat, not because of the clicker, so I don't know why I am clicking at all. Of course, you're right, I'm just speculating on what is going on in his head, so that may not be the case at all.


The point of the clicker is that it's much more precise. If you're just using the treat, you have to be really good at getting the treat in his mouth really quickly. Say you're trying to train a sit, if he sits and then gets up before you can get him the treat, you've lost an opportunity to reinforce a sit. But if he sits and you click while he's still sitting, it doesn't matter if he gets up because the click marked that the sit gets the treat.

He is responding because of the treat. The click marks what gets the treat. Without being paired with the treat, the click would mean nothing.



> What you said about getting him to "hand target" is helpful. I haven't tried that. He will sit or down if I tell him to (without actually looking at me, just keeping his eye on whatever is arousing him - kids, squirrels, etc) but I feel like getting him to look at my hand will be much harder, at least at the distance we're working at. I'll have to back up.


I can't tell from this if you've already trained the hand target, but if you haven't, make sure you get that really strong before you ask him to do it near kids.



> The hand target is one thing, are there other more difficult, attention requiring tasks I can ask him to do when he's in an aroused state?


Attention heeling on both sides (so that you can tell him to heel on the side farther from the kids), target your foot or knee as well as your hand, target something you point to, eye contact while in a sit or down, anything that he physically cannot do while still looking at the squirrels/kids/cat/whatever.



> We're trying to work with him to reduce his anxiety and increase his trust in us.


I don't remember if I've mentioned this before, but "nothing in life is free" is great for rescue dogs. I would recommend Ruff Love by Susan Garrett, but the book doesn't stress enough that it is NOT a solitary confinement-based program. It is intended that for as much time as possible the dog is out of the crate being trained, being played with, chewing a bone while the trainer watches TV, later having supervised free time, etc.

Also, if you haven't read The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson, it's a great book and is probably available at your local Barnes and Noble. Ruff Love is harder to get, I got mine at a show vendor but it's probably on Amazon.



> He must have thought he was at the Bridge already, treats and funny noises falling from the sky.


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## sage63 (Jul 11, 2006)

I was going to ask what about if my dog runs from the click (because he didn't like the task I was asking him to do - hold a rope toy). I had to chase him down to give him the treat!! I guess I need to go over the basic : click•treat•click•treat•click•treat•click•treat•click•treat•click•treat•click•treat•click•treat
again. Click = yum yums! He really didn't care about the treat, he just wanted to run away from me. I had tried to get him to hold his rope toy in his mouth by opening his mouth and holding it in there for him then clicking and treating. I guess I need to back up and try a diff approach?!


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Is he afraid of the click sound or is he just shutting down during a training session? If your rate of reinforcement (how many times you click/treat per minute) is high enough and the treats you are using are high-value, he won't want to run away.

It sounds like you're trying to get him to do too much before you click, so your rate of reinforcement isn't high enough. To teach him to hold a rope toy, you'd start by clicking and treating glances in the direction of the toy. You want to "split" behaviors into teeny tiny steps rather than being a "lumper" and trying to get the whole behavior at once. Here is a good article about how to split the retrieve into little steps http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/retrieve.html

Dogs learn very little by having the object placed in their mouth. With clicker training you want the dog to be actively figuring out what to do to earn the click/treat, not just sitting there and letting stuff happen to him.

You had to chase him down to give him the treat, might be because the treats you are using aren't high-value enough. Most people like to use small pieces of "people food" like leftover chicken, string cheese, etc chopped into dog bite-sized pieces. If he doesn't like the treats he's getting, he's not getting very much of the treats, and he's having his mouth forced open and held shut, you can't blame him for not wanting to stick around.


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## sage63 (Jul 11, 2006)

LOL! You are right! I tried to do too much too soon. (Hmmm....story of my life! I want results too fast!) I'll back off and start with baby steps. He is a smart boy so he should catch on quickly. I'll try pieces of cheese. He's having such food allergies to his kibble right now I'm scared to give him the training treats until I find out what is or isn't causing the itching. I could use pieces of the kibble we just switched to and that way if he starts itching I'll know it is from that and not a treat. He seems to like it so I'll see if it is enticing enough. 

I understand what you mean about it being better for him to learn to pick up the rope toy than for me to place it in his mouth for him. Duh! Glad I have smarties like you all to set me straight!!  Seriously!! I need a good clicker training book but can't find one around here. Do you recommend one I could order off of Amazon? I'll check out that link you provided. Thanks again!


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Hmm ... Barnes and Noble probably has Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson, and Petsmart usually has Clicking with your Dog by Peggy Tillman. Clicking with your Dog has more step-by-step how to train a certain behavior, but Culture Clash is better at explaining dog behavior and how dogs learn.


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## sashac (Mar 13, 2006)

Katie, you rock with your clicker knowledge. you better start charging (just not for us poor fools!)


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Clicker Training for Obedience by Morgan Spector is very good and comprehensive but might be a bit too technical in places and scope for the beginner... I don't know.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

sashac said:


> Katie, you rock with your clicker knowledge. you better start charging (just not for us poor fools!)


Aww, thanks. I just have a lot of time on my hands : 

I've heard Clicker Training for Obedience is basically just lure-reward but with a click before the reward, and geared more towards competition obedience. I've never read it though so I couldn't say.


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## sage63 (Jul 11, 2006)

sashac said:


> Katie, you rock with your clicker knowledge. you better start charging (just not for us poor fools!)


Yeah! Ditto on that!


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